# Gordon Elliott



## Clodagh (28 February 2021)

And THAT photo.
What do you think? Is it for real? If so is he deeply stupid?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (28 February 2021)

Appalling. Yes and yes  🤬


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## Mule (28 February 2021)

The horse looks dead and its eyes are open so it's not asleep. What sort of weirdo does that?


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## Clodagh (28 February 2021)

I think it is sick. I get that horses drop dead, I get its been untacked and is presumably waiting for the knackers wagon but why do the photoshoot? It is beyond comprehension.


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## IrishMilo (28 February 2021)

Just seen the photo. What a pr*ck.


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## AdorableAlice (28 February 2021)

I sincerely hope that it is a digitally altered photo.  The horse has no saddle mark or brow band mark on it. The horse is also very poor rather than light and fit.  Of course it could have dropped before doing any work and therefore would not be hot so would not have a tack mark on it.

This close to Cheltenham and with this year appearing to be an Ireland whitewash, there could well be some sick folk wanting to create problems for Mr Elliott.

If it is real racing is facing its darkest day.


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## Tiddlypom (28 February 2021)

It’s a grim image, but I do think that it looks like a photoshop effort.

I’m not a racing buff, so have no opinion on whether this is what GE might get up to.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/s...estigation-image-sat-dead-horse-surfaces.html


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## Goldenstar (28 February 2021)

I hope it’s a fake and I think it’s likely it is 
I don’t think anyone in racing is that careless with their image .


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## MyBoyChe (28 February 2021)

Havent seen it so no idea what photo is of but there was a post in a racing site Im on and they have removed the pic and turned off comments so I assume it must be unsavoury


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## Elf On A Shelf (28 February 2021)

I sincerely hope it is photoshopped! I really really really do for the sake of racing but ... 

Whatever happens I hope the Irish Racing Board act quickly before Cheltenham one way or the other.


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## Clodagh (28 February 2021)

I know the Mail is not the true heights of investigative journalism but they say ‘a source close to the photographer’ said it was taken on the gallops last year.


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## Clodagh (28 February 2021)

I imagine the worst he would get is ‘bringing racing into disrepute ‘?


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## AdorableAlice (28 February 2021)

Racing Post - 

_ Elliott says he will cooperate with IHRB investigation into social media picture | Horse Racing News | Racing Post _

Surely Mr Elliott would have immediately denied any involvement if there is no truth to the picture.  To say he will 'cooperate' with investigations suggests, for me, the photo could be real.


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## Smitty (28 February 2021)

I found this photo deeply unpleasant and at best a hugely misguided attempt at dark humour.  

I so badly want it to be photoshopped or whatever.

If it turns out to be real I would hope that all his owners find alternative trainers for their horses.  To think that someone who makes a living from horses and has so little respect for them is chilling.


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## Steerpike (28 February 2021)

I really do hope it is photo shopped, in honesty though I never liked the look of him I have to say, so wouldn't actually be surprised if it wasn't, if that makes sense.


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## paddi22 (28 February 2021)

I do photoshop for a living and if it's photoshopped then it's a masterpiece. I'd be 99.9% sure it's not photoshopped - the light, shadows and weight distribution all look correct and there's no cloning or blurring of pixels. 

plus if someone accused you of being in a photo like this, wouldn't your first reaction be 'that's no me' not 'i'm helping the investigation.'


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## Clodagh (28 February 2021)

Smitty said:



			I found this photo deeply unpleasant and at best a hugely misguided attempt at dark humour.  

I so badly want it to be photoshopped or whatever.

If it turns out to be real I would hope that all his owners find alternative trainers for their horses.  To think that someone who makes a living from horses and has so little respect for them is chilling.
		
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I doubt it will bother Gigginstown. I hope others will be more discerning.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (28 February 2021)

People are saying photo shop but im not so sure. His legs look at the right angle etc, the only thing possibly suggesting photoshop is the shading on GE looks different to the rest of the picture. Also the horses right front leg doesn't look right, too short from the shoulder to knee though that may just be the angle 

His statement seemed a bit brief I'd have said something like I categorically deny the event I have deep respect for the horses in my care and will work with the relevant authorities etc etc


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## Crazy_cat_lady (28 February 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I doubt it will bother Gigginstown. I hope others will be more discerning.
		
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Unfortunately Gigginstown like you say probably won't care- his desperation to persist with Tiger Roll and the whole oh he will be retired yet you just know he's going for that 3rd National. They have so many horses they are just numbers to them.


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## Smitty (28 February 2021)

I have to agree with the general consensus here but I so want it to be a fake ...


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## LEC (28 February 2021)

I think sadly it’s real but I wonder what has gone on behind the scenes that this photo has now emerged.


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## photo_jo (28 February 2021)

paddi22 said:



			I do photoshop for a living and if it's photoshopped then it's a masterpiece. I'd be 99.9% sure it's not photoshopped - the light, shadows and weight distribution all look correct and there's no cloning or blurring of pixels.
		
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I'd agree with you except there's a line of pale light that should not be there


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## paddi22 (28 February 2021)

it's that line that makes me think it isn't, as thats how the light would land on a denim style surface.  if you look at the guys leg to the left, the light hits the material on his leg the same way


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## photo_jo (28 February 2021)

paddi22 said:



			it's that line that makes me think it isn't, as thats how the light would land on a denim style surface.  if you look at the guys leg to the left, the light hits the material on his leg the same way
		
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I also use photoshop all the time and I said real for the same reasons as you, the foot in the sand etc etc until I saw that weird line on the knee-I so hope I'm right


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## paddi22 (28 February 2021)

we get asked to make composite shots for advertising campaigns and if you were asked to recreate that shot it would be so tricky. you would need someone to have posed on say, a barrel, the exact same height as the horse, and turned at exactly the same angle (which would be really tricky unless you were measuring it and setting it up purposely) and photographed with the same perspective as the original shot.  his body is lined up perfectly with the line of the horses body.

you couldn't have clipped his body off a shot of him sitting on a horse, because his weight is in his left foot, so it isn't dangling like it would be on a horse. the way his leg is curved around the horses body is 100% correct and that would be tricky to do.


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## photo_jo (28 February 2021)

paddi22 said:



			we get asked to make composite shots for advertising campaigns and if you were asked to recreate that shot it would be so tricky. you would need someone to have posed on say, a barrel, the exact same height as the horse, and turned at exactly the same angle (which would be really tricky unless you were measuring it and setting it up purposely) and photographed with the same perspective as the original shot.  his body is lined up perfectly with the line of the horses body.

you couldn't have clipped his body off a shot of him sitting on a horse, because his weight is in his left foot, so it isn't dangling like it would be on a horse. the way his leg is curved around the horses body is 100% correct and that would be tricky to do.
		
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I agree with you on all your points-it's just that weird line


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## ycbm (28 February 2021)

I can't imagine the circumstances where an innocent man wouldn't simply have said "it's a fake".
.


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## paddi22 (28 February 2021)

it occurs a lot in photos, this is good example of it, this photo isn't photoshops but he has a light rim all around him


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## Crazy_cat_lady (28 February 2021)

I was wondering what he'd have to be sat on to have his legs at such a perfect angle as to seamlessly fit onto the horse. 

I can only possibly think of him sat on a chair or bench maybe? I don't recall seeing any pictures of him riding


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## Crazy_cat_lady (28 February 2021)

ycbm said:



			I can't imagine the circumstances where an innocent man wouldn't simply have said "it's a fake".
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Exactly I'd be quick to make clear that I had utmost respect for the horses in my care, appalled to see such an image and will be working closely with the relevant authorities to ensure my name is cleared


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## photo_jo (28 February 2021)

paddi22 said:



			it occurs a lot in photos, this is good example of it, this photo isn't photoshops but he has a light rim all around him
		
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My initial thoughts was it was real, I believe you


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## Elf On A Shelf (28 February 2021)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			I was wondering what he'd have to be sat on to have his legs at such a perfect angle as to seamlessly fit onto the horse. 

I can only possibly think of him sat on a chair or bench maybe? I don't recall seeing any pictures of him riding
		
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He used to be a fairly decent amatuer jockey once upon a time. Before his love of food and beer took over! 

The only way you could get an image of someone sitting like that is if they were indeed sitting on a horse at that angle - laying down asleep or dead.


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## Carmen6 (28 February 2021)

I'm another that Photoshops for a living.  If there's any photoshop there, I'm not looking in the right place.

I concure with paddi22 about the light rim - it's just how light reflects around objects. 

What makes people think it's been photoshopped?  If it had, wouldn't it be easy for those being accused to produce the originals?


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## Elf On A Shelf (28 February 2021)

Carmen6 said:



			I'm another that Photoshops for a living.  If there's any photoshop there, I'm not looking in the right place.

I concure with paddi22 about the light rim - it's just how light reflects around objects. 

What makes people think it's been photoshopped?  If it had, wouldn't it be easy for those being accused to produce the originals?
		
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Because they don't want to believe that it could be anything other than photoshopped. It's 2 weeks to Cheltenham and whilst he doesn't hold a strong hand in the major races he has a ruddy good chance of winning a lot of the handicaps.


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## AdorableAlice (28 February 2021)

Carmen6 said:



			I'm another that Photoshops for a living.  If there's any photoshop there, I'm not looking in the right place.

I concure with paddi22 about the light rim - it's just how light reflects around objects.

What makes people think it's been photoshopped?  If it had, wouldn't it be easy for those being accused to produce the originals?
		
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It is more a case of people hoping it is photoshopped rather than thinking it is.  Racing is already an emotive subject for many, the death toll on NH courses recently is high and two high profile meetings are eminent.  Not denying it is highly suspicious, any normal person would be mortified by such a disgusting action, but Mr Elliott simply says 'he will cooperate with enquiries'.  Those are not his words, those are the words of a solicitor.

Those around him when that picture was taken are just as vile and complicit.  Reading through some of the reports it seems the picture was taken last year, so someone has held it for a while before publishing it.

I just hope the horse didn't suffer and the authorities deal with the matter appropriately, somehow I doubt either.


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## Goldenstar (28 February 2021)

I don’t think callous bad taste is against the law .


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## teapot (28 February 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			I don’t think callous bad taste is against the law .
		
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No, but it goes against the objectives of licensing.

https://www.britishhorseracing.com/regulation/licensing/about-licensing/  Would hope the Irish have similar standards.


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## Peregrine Falcon (28 February 2021)

If it is true, then what a lack of respect that dead horse has been shown. One would hope such a high profile trainer should show more than that. 

I'm not sure if I was an owner I'd want my horse in training with such a trainer. 

Another death this weekend. With Cheltenham and Aintree looming surely the "ban racing" fratenitity will jump at the negativity this will bring. 😔


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## Laafet (28 February 2021)

Talking to an Irish friend tonight, who works in NH racing, I sadly think this may not be a photoshop job. 
Not a pleasant person to women either....


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## AdorableAlice (28 February 2021)

Promote participant and public confidence in the sport by ensuring proper standards of conduct and competence.

In other words Mr Elliott is required to be a fit and proper person to hold a licence.  Assuming the picture is real, the authorities have a decision to make.


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## minesadouble (28 February 2021)

For the sake of racing I really hope its photoshopped. 
Having been brought up on a farm I have a realistic approach to the end of life and believe that once an animal is gone it's gone and that is that. The animal, or human for that matter, is in the brain or soul dependent on your viewpoint. The body is merely the physical vehicle that enabled said animal or human to get from A to B. 

I'm aware that not so many people share my view and would thus find this image offensive.


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## ycbm (28 February 2021)

minesadouble said:



			For the sake of racing I really hope its photoshopped.
Having been brought up on a farm I have a realistic approach to the end of life and believe that once an animal is gone it's gone and that is that. The animal, or human for that matter, is in the brain or soul dependent on your viewpoint. The body is merely the physical vehicle that enabled said animal or human to get from A to B.

I'm aware that not so many people share my view and would thus find this image offensive.
		
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I share that view.  What astounds me is that he was stupid enough not to realise that most people don't.  And that the picture will serve to reinforce the view that racing treats horses as disposable tools. Stupid,  stupid man.


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## Elf On A Shelf (28 February 2021)

minesadouble said:



			For the sake of racing I really hope its photoshopped. 
Having been brought up on a farm I have a realistic approach to the end of life and believe that once an animal is gone it's gone and that is that. The animal, or human for that matter, is in the brain or soul dependent on your viewpoint. The body is merely the physical vehicle that enabled said animal or human to get from A to B. 

I'm aware that not so many people share my view and would thus find this image offensive.
		
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I've worked in racing all my life. When I have to untack a horse that has died I am careful and respectful of the animal they had been. I know they are dead, I know they can feel nothing any more but they do still deserve respect. They have done everything we have asked of them and have sadly paid the ultimate price for their willingness. That deserves respect. It is the lack of respect I find distasteful.

For racings sake I do sincerely hope this is a hoax. But I have a feeling it isn't.


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## Clodagh (28 February 2021)

minesadouble said:



			For the sake of racing I really hope its photoshopped. 
Having been brought up on a farm I have a realistic approach to the end of life and believe that once an animal is gone it's gone and that is that. The animal, or human for that matter, is in the brain or soul dependent on your viewpoint. The body is merely the physical vehicle that enabled said animal or human to get from A to B. 

I'm aware that not so many people share my view and would thus find this image offensive.
		
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I think perhaps there is being a realist and there is being unnecessarily insensitive.
I treat dead pheasants with more respect than that horse got.


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## minesadouble (28 February 2021)

ycbm said:



			I share that view.  What astounds me is that he was stupid enough not to realise that most people don't.  And that the picture will serve to reinforce the view that racing treats horses as disposable tools. Stupid,  stupid man.
		
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100% agree with this. I'm even a bit careful what I say/do on my livery yard as I know that not everyone feels the same as me. As a figure representing the public image of horseracing surely you need to be even more careful.


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## AdorableAlice (28 February 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I've worked in racing all my life. When I have to untack a horse that has died I am careful and respectful of the animal they had been. I know they are dead, I know they can feel nothing any more but they do still deserve respect. They have done everything we have asked of them and have sadly paid the ultimate price for their willingness. That deserves respect. It is the lack of respect I find distasteful.

For racings sake I do sincerely hope this is a hoax. But I have a feeling it isn't.
		
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Can I ask if the industry is as disgusted as the general horse world is ?


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## minesadouble (28 February 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I've worked in racing all my life. When I have to untack a horse that has died I am careful and respectful of the animal they had been. I know they are dead, I know they can feel nothing any more but they do still deserve respect. They have done everything we have asked of them and have sadly paid the ultimate price for their willingness. That deserves respect. It is the lack of respect I find distasteful.

For racings sake I do sincerely hope this is a hoax. But I have a feeling it isn't.
		
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I totally get what you're saying, but for me the body isn't the animal if you get what I mean?
I even feel my own body is a bit like my car. It gets me to and from where I want to be, if I look after it well and feed it quality fuel I hope it will last longer than if I neglected it but when I'm dead you can chuck it on a skip for all I care. It serves me as a vehicle. I am my thoughts/feelings/memories etc., my body is not 'me'.

Wow I'm getting really philosophical for a Sunday night here!


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## Elf On A Shelf (28 February 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			Can I ask if the industry is as disgusted as the general horse world is ?
		
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Absolutely! Even more so in fact because we understand just how much is at stake and how much these horses give us and deserve to be treated better regardless of being dead or alive.


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## bonny (28 February 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			Can I ask if the industry is as disgusted as the general horse world is ?
		
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I can’t imagine anyone in racing isn’t disgusted but also very angry. The last thing racing needs is publicity like this. I think he has to be banned for this for the sake of racing as a whole.


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## Elf On A Shelf (28 February 2021)

minesadouble said:



			I totally get what you're saying, but for me the body isn't the animal if you get what I mean?
I even feel my own body is a bit like my car. It gets me to and from where I want to be, if I look after it well and feed it quality fuel I hope it will last longer than if I neglected it but when I'm dead you can chuck it on a skip for all I care. It serves me as a vehicle. I am my thoughts/feelings/memories etc., my body is not 'me'.

Wow I'm getting really philosophical for a Sunday night here!
		
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I do 100% get what you mean. Maybe I am still a bit soft even after all these years but I would still rather be gentle with the body because whilst I am dealing with them they are still warm. They have only just gone so to me they are still there in a sense. 

Don't get me wrong I have happily carved up and disected legs and hearts etc of horses but they were long dead and cold.


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## AdorableAlice (28 February 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Absolutely! Even more so in fact because we understand just how much is at stake and how much these horses give us and deserve to be treated better regardless of being dead or alive.
		
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Thank you, that justifies my comment at the first start of the thread, when I said I see this incident, if true, as the darkest day racing has ever seen.


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## paddi22 (28 February 2021)

it really highlights how once an industry involves money and animals they just become commodities that can be discarded once they are of no use. just for debates sake, on a scale of respect to animals, is sitting on a dead one any worse than sending how ever many (I don't know the figures) unsuccessful ones to  factories for disposal? or is it just a more striking visual? is it worse than breeding animals that have no use afterwards if they don't make it on the track and instead letting charities and other people try to give some a home?


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## bonny (28 February 2021)

paddi22 said:



			it really highlights how once an industry involves money and animals they just become commodities that can be discarded once they are of no use. just for debates sake, on a scale of respect to animals, is sitting on a dead one any worse than sending how ever many (I don't know the figures) unsuccessful ones to  factories for disposal? or is it just a more striking visual? is it worse than breeding animals that have no use afterwards if they don't make it on the track and instead letting charities and other people try to give some a home?
		
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That’s all really a different issue, the point with the photo is that it’s a PR disaster especially with such a high profile trainer


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## Crazy_cat_lady (28 February 2021)

IF he isn't photo shopped on and has actually done that, what do we think the repercussions will actually be?

Reading AA's licence link he's breached a lot of those terms plus hasn't he potentially brought the sport into disrepute?

The cynic in me says because he's a "big name" with a very large circle of influence, the most he gets is a slap on the wrist and a fine. Also given who a lot of his horses are owned by, that person comes across as being ambivalent at best towards the welfare of their horses, so won't be removing them from the yard. Said person is probably GE biggest source of income- the most that will happen is a few smaller owners will move their horses but they are a small percentage of his income. JP comes across as someone who cares about his horses- does he have any with GE?


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## teapot (28 February 2021)

IHRB:

*Rules relating to the Good Reputation of Horseracing*
Rule 271, 272, 273, 274, 275, 276.
Includes information on:


Conduct of Trainers
Bribes and laying horses to lose
Corrupt and fraudulent practices
Participation at unrecognised race meeting.
Acting in manner which is likely to damage the reputation of Horseracing in Ireland
Disqualified persons
Rule 272:

272. Any person involved in horseracing who, within the jurisdiction of the IHRB;
(i) whether verbally or by conduct or behaviour, acts in a manner which is prejudicial to the integrity, proper conduct or good reputation of horseracing (whether or not such behaviour or conduct, verbal or otherwise is associated directly with horseracing).


Better be more than a slap on the wrist if found to be true but whether that'll happen...


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## Goldenstar (28 February 2021)

It’s a slap on the wrist .


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## teapot (28 February 2021)

Just have to wait and see now, Racing Post working late tonight!

https://www.racingpost.com/news/ihr...n3Wo7IRJ9a0Ix37Tb01Zfy3C-ggrNGYATTATsyeEj6IjU


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## Jeni the dragon (28 February 2021)

The latest statement I've seen is awful! Apparently he sat down to take a phone call! Imagine being the owner of that horse!


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## Crazy_cat_lady (28 February 2021)

https://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news/elliott-issues-unreserved-apology/189661

Found this link on a racing forum...


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## Lexi_ (28 February 2021)

Jeni the dragon said:



			The latest statement I've seen is awful! Apparently he sat down to take a phone call! Imagine being the owner of that horse!
		
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I’ve just seen that 😳 

Is “whoops, I accidentally mistook a dead horse for a chair” the best they could come up with??


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## Andie02 (28 February 2021)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			IF he isn't photo shopped on and has actually done that, what do we think the repercussions will actually be?

Reading AA's licence link he's breached a lot of those terms plus hasn't he potentially brought the sport into disrepute?

The cynic in me says because he's a "big name" with a very large circle of influence, the most he gets is a slap on the wrist and a fine. Also given who a lot of his horses are owned by, that person comes across as being ambivalent at best towards the welfare of their horses, so won't be removing them from the yard. Said person is probably GE biggest source of income- the most that will happen is a few smaller owners will move their horses but they are a small percentage of his income. JP comes across as someone who cares about his horses- does he have any with GE?
		
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Yes Mr McManus has several horses with Gordon Elliott.


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## Andie02 (28 February 2021)

There is a similar statement in the Irish Field as well.


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## bonny (1 March 2021)

Well he’s admitted it’s a real photo and has come up with what seems a pathetic excuse so it remains to be seen what the authorities and his owners decide to do.


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## AdorableAlice (1 March 2021)

He must be friends with Dominic Cummings to have invented that excuse.

it is now sponsors and owners that are in the most powerful position to limit the damage done to racing’s image.  The regulators can give him a slap and a silly boy reprimand, but sponsors and owners can make a far greater statement.  If I was an owner my lorry would be on its way now.  Not based on fear for my horse, but based on not wanting to be seen to be supporting Elliott regardless of how good a trainer he is.  There are other highly successful trainers ready to take horses.

Every aspect of racing has to unite to defend the sport and I hope they do over this awful incident.  The whole thing is so sad and so needless.


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## Elf On A Shelf (1 March 2021)

Well that reason/excuse is so utterly awful no one is going to believe a word of it! 

For a start - no one mistakes a dead animal for a chair. 

Secondly - why would he himself get his hands dirty trying to move the body. At which you also would not need to straddle it you would be at the legs/hooves. Plus he has tractors out harrowing his gallops all day between lots. That horse will have been removed within 5 mins by one of them. 

I hope the BHA take a better stance than the IHRB givan that Cheltenham is in 2 weeks and this isn't going to be able to brushed under the carpet quickly.


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## scats (1 March 2021)

Hideous man.  That’s not photoshopped.
If I was an owner, I’d have my horse out of his yard like a shot.  I would not want to be associated with him in any way.


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## Clodagh (1 March 2021)

...


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## Crazy_cat_lady (1 March 2021)

It's a very soft excuse- even if he was preparing to remove the horse, surely the removal equipment would have had to be there right at that moment- you wouldn't stand over it until needed you'd just wait by the body? Also, even if he was stood over it, unless continuing to assist with one hand, when the call came in you'd step back and either lean against the rails or sit on the floor to take it....

I'm reading a racing forum- people are trying to defend him saying the horse is dead so it doesn't matter....

I'm far too soft to have a horse race, but if I did I'd far rather have someone like EKW's approach to a body than just treat it as an object. I know at that point in time it technically is but minutes earlier that WAS  a living breathing animal so deserves a little more respect

It just adds to the image most people in racing see the horses as tools- effectively here he sees the body as a convenient chair. Would for example you see Pippa Funnell or Charlotte Dujardin sat on one of their dead horses like that. Especially with the V sign....

Unfortunately his main owner is the Burgandy colours person, who as I said previously seems at best ambivalent towards his horses- no way he removes them. At most you'll get a few small owners remove them- I would if I had horses with him- but they won't be the ones that bring in ££££'s so will barely affect him, then other dubious ethics owners will be quick to send him their horses.

Will racing do anything about one of the "big 4" (Willie Mullins,  Gordon Elliott, Nicky Henderson and Paul Nicholls are in my opinion 4 biggest operations)

Not a chance in my opinion. They are too big and too much influence/ make up a lot of the fields. Most he gets is a fine and or slap on the wrist. No chance of a ban/ heavier punishment. Also isn't welfare in Irish racing a lot more questionable? And they'd be the authority dealing with him...


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## Maddie Moo (1 March 2021)

This is under the IHRB rules for trainers, hopefully they’re actually going to act on it.

Rules relating to the Good Reputation of Horseracing
Rule 271, 272, 273, 274, 275, 276.
Includes information on:

Conduct of Trainers
Bribes and laying horses to lose
Corrupt and fraudulent practices
Participation at unrecognised race meeting.
*Acting in manner which is likely to damage the reputation of Horseracing in Ireland*
Disqualified persons
What a stupid excuse he has given, I too hope owners remove their horses from his care but I’m not overly hopeful.


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## bonny (1 March 2021)

Does anyone know who owns his training establishment ?


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## Laafet (1 March 2021)

This and his illegal 'bar' - it's all building up to show just what a horrid person he is. The more I hear from my racing friends in Ireland, the worse it all is. Racing has a hard enough time as it is without idiots doing this sort of thing. He should know far better, but then seemingly as he has not respect for humans or animals then it is of no surprise. The horse in question was a Gigginstown horse BTW.


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## Laafet (1 March 2021)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			It's a very soft excuse- even if he was preparing to remove the horse, surely the removal equipment would have had to be there right at that moment- you wouldn't stand over it until needed you'd just wait by the body? Also, even if he was stood over it, unless continuing to assist with one hand, when the call came in you'd step back and either lean against the rails or sit on the floor to take it....

I'm reading a racing forum- people are trying to defend him saying the horse is dead so it doesn't matter....

I'm far too soft to have a horse race, but if I did I'd far rather have someone like EKW's approach to a body than just treat it as an object. I know at that point in time it technically is but minutes earlier that WAS  a living breathing animal so deserves a little more respect

It just adds to the image most people in racing see the horses as tools- effectively here he sees the body as a convenient chair. Would for example you see Pippa Funnell or Charlotte Dujardin sat on one of their dead horses like that. Especially with the V sign....

Unfortunately his main owner is the Burgandy colours person, who as I said previously seems at best ambivalent towards his horses- no way he removes them. At most you'll get a few small owners remove them- I would if I had horses with him- but they won't be the ones that bring in ££££'s so will barely affect him, then other dubious ethics owners will be quick to send him their horses.

Will racing do anything about one of the "big 4" (Willie Mullins,  Gordon Elliott, Nicky Henderson and Paul Nicholls are in my opinion 4 biggest operations)

Not a chance in my opinion. They are too big and too much influence/ make up a lot of the fields. Most he gets is a fine and or slap on the wrist. No chance of a ban/ heavier punishment. Also isn't welfare in Irish racing a lot more questionable? And they'd be the authority dealing with him...
		
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You are right there. 

With regards to what happens when horses die on the gallops - in my time, there was not an audience. The trainer would not hang around for the removal, once it was ascertained that the horse was dead. All yards would have tractors and suitable gear for moving the prone horse away from the track until they could be collected and usually they would be covered over with a rug or tarp. Even removing the horse's tack would not require you to straddle the horse like that and there is no tack evident in the photo. It was a untasteful 'lad's' photo that someone quite rightly kept as evidence.


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## Snowfilly (1 March 2021)

That is a grotesque photo. Any time I’ve had to be around dead horses, I’ve moved them with as much care and attention as I can; even the knackermen are careful and respectful and they move carcasses every day. I’ve removed tack from two dead ones and neither required straddling a horse like that, so I can’t see what he doing at all.

I appreciate it’s not hurting the horse, who is beyond caring, but it’s embarrassing to the sport as a whole and will only give more ammunition to people who say racing doesn’t care about the horses. It’s disrespectful and I wouldn’t want to leave a horse with him after that.


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## Steerpike (1 March 2021)

It has even made Al Jazeera news


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## Maddie Moo (1 March 2021)

Betfair have discontinued their association with him, I imagine (and hope) this is just the start.

https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...don-elliott-following-shocking-picture/475706


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## ycbm (1 March 2021)

Laafet said:



			. It was a untasteful 'lad's' photo that someone quite rightly kept as evidence.
		
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He deserves what he's got coming to him but if it was kept as evidence there doesn't seem any reason why  it wouldn't have been published immediately.  This has, surely,  been done by someone to get back at him for something?  I wonder what that was!
.


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## Laafet (1 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			He deserves what he's got coming to him but if it was kept as evidence there doesn't seem any reason why  it wouldn't have been published immediately.  This has, surely,  been done by someone to get back at him for something?  I wonder what that was!
.
		
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Most likely one of his girlfriend's....


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## Elf On A Shelf (1 March 2021)

Laafet said:



			Most likely one of his girlfriend's....
		
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I would say that is very much the likely source of the picture.


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## Andie02 (1 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			He deserves what he's got coming to him but if it was kept as evidence there doesn't seem any reason why  it wouldn't have been published immediately.  This has, surely,  been done by someone to get back at him for something?  I wonder what that was!
.
		
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He must have really upset someone for them to publish that photo, but what an absolute sicko to sit on that poor horse like that.


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## meleeka (1 March 2021)

What a pathetic excuse.  Even if he did have so little respect to use the horse as a chair, he would be sat on it like a chair (both his legs one side) and not like an arrogant fool who thinks it’s funny.  I really hope he gets what he deserves.


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## Velcrobum (1 March 2021)

If he goes to Cheltenham it is probably a good thing for him that there are no spectators allowed. It will be interesting to see what the TV people do, ignore him, challenge him we will see. Awaiting with interest to see what action the authorities take!!


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## conniegirl (1 March 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/horse-racing/56234556


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## Orangehorse (1 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			He deserves what he's got coming to him but if it was kept as evidence there doesn't seem any reason why  it wouldn't have been published immediately.  This has, surely,  been done by someone to get back at him for something?  I wonder what that was!
.
		
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That's what I wondered.  What moron would publish a photo like that unless there is a motive?  Or that the person who published is an out and out moron, and they do exist with no thought to any consequences.


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## Nicnac (1 March 2021)

There needs to be consequences beyond the Betfair decision which I wholly support.  IHRB need to suspend him as anyone would if it were a employee undergoing investigation for such an abhorrent lack of respect to racing's finest - the horse.


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## AdorableAlice (1 March 2021)

Mick Fitzgerald speaking on Sky Sport is worth listening to.  He words and emotion totally sums up what Elliott has done to racing.


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## reynold (1 March 2021)

All decent people show respect for the dead, be it human or animal. Those who don't show respect don't deserve to be accepted within society. Elliot should be banned from training for at least 10 years.

I also look to the owners of horses trained by him to remove their animals to other trainers. Betfair deserve respect for being so prompt in severing their association with Elliot.


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## RachelFerd (1 March 2021)

Yet another nail in the coffin for national hunt racing - a sport whose days (rightly or wrongly) are numbered. i worked in racing for best part of a decade, and I know that the majority of trainers and individuals in the sport are good people who have respect for the animals they train. But there are a 5% or so of people who don't - and even amongst those who do train with thought and respect, the sport itself is tough on animals. I worked for David Elsworth for many years, who gave up training National Hunt horses because he was sick of his horses losing their lives on the track. And that's coming from a champion NH trainer...

This photo will haunt racing for years. Like it or not, racehorses are not simply 'livestock' in the eyes of the public, and they cannot just be treated as such.

I hope that the Irish authorities take significant action.

And I hope that any additional motive for this photo being released is also investigated - because if this does stem from relationships where balance of power is being abused as has been mooted, then that needs to stop too.


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## Maddie Moo (1 March 2021)

Gigginstown to continue to support him, there’s a surprise 

Article


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## Pearlsasinger (1 March 2021)

Jeni the dragon said:



			The latest statement I've seen is awful! Apparently he sat down to take a phone call! Imagine being the owner of that horse!
		
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I must admit that I'm in the 'Well, it's dead now' camp when it comes to the body but I would have expected a trainer who wants people to send horses to him, to be rather more circumspect in his public behaviour.  I wouldn't send a horse to him, because I would expect a trainer to have more sense and sensitivity.


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## Michen (1 March 2021)

If it's real and I was the owner of that horse I'd be beyond furious. What a sick thing to do.

Edited, just saw it is, what a complete creep he is. Urgh, I hope he gets stripped of all support.


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## SOS (1 March 2021)

It’s the lack of professionalism bothering me and the way it looks to people outside of racing. Although I agree with the it’s only a body concept I don’t agree that it should be mocked especially when it belongs to someone else.

We unfortunately deal with dead animals everyday in vet practice and we would never ever pose in such a way or disrespect a dead animal. At the end of the day it’s someone’s pet or even a stray, it was alive not long ago. It’s not in our professional nature to not respect our deceased animals. This is what worries me. I’ve unfortunately worked with some less than nice vets and some that I have wondered why they are in the industry yet cannot imagine any one of them treating a dead animal in such a way or being so unprofessional.


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## MyBoyChe (1 March 2021)

If the man had any respect for the horses in his care he would have sat on the ground to take that phone call, if he was so exhausted he couldnt have stood for a moment longer   It is the bigger picture I fear though, aside from the fact that I would be worried what goes on behind the scenes.  I absolutely love racing, have done for 50 years but not everyone feels as I do.  Im no fluffy bunny and like several others have said, once a horse is dead, its dead.  They still deserve to be treated with dignity and respect though, and a man in his position should be well aware of the public image of the sport.  Ive long thought  and have had it confirmed by others with more inside knowledge than me, that in general, the Irish do see racing as more of an industry and the horses as a commodity (not everyone but far more so than in the UK)  This is going to run and run and not in a good way.  His backers, sponsors and owners need to wake up and smell the roses for the sake of the sport (I see that Betfair already have)


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## ester (1 March 2021)

Maddie Moo said:



			Gigginstown to continue to support him, there’s a surprise 

Article 

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That reads as blah blah blah blah. . .


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## Annagain (1 March 2021)

There is absolutely no way that was sitting down without thinking (he'd have had to have climbed over him, you don't do that absentmindedly) and that isn't gesturing for someone not to distract him while he's on the phone. That is 100% posing.


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## Tiddlypom (1 March 2021)

If he’d been wrestling to remove the tack from the deceased horse before the photo was taken, he’d be covered in sand.

He wasn’t. It’s a trophy pic showing his contempt for the animal now it can no longer bring in revenue.


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## Clodagh (1 March 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I must admit that I'm in the 'Well, it's dead now' camp when it comes to the body but I would have expected a trainer who wants people to send horses to him, to be rather more circumspect in his public behaviour.  I wouldn't send a horse to him, because I would expect a trainer to have more sense and sensitivity.
		
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I'm quoting your post but not specifically aiming the reply at you any more than ycbm and minesadouble who agree with you.
If your dog was off to the vets for an op, say a dental, and say it died under aneasthetic. Would you really be completely unruffled by the vet sitting astride its body and making gestures while photographs were taken? I just cannot get my head around that as an attitude.
I have untacked a horse that dropped dead and it's pretty difficult, but I was still as gentle as possible. I have held horses to be shot and put their head in a feed bag after taking the headcollar off, I have always been as circumspect as I can.
I have been on a flesh round with a huntsman who wouldn't have treated a carcass like that.
I cannot see it is defensible. Not just poor PR it showcases a whole attitude.


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## Clodagh (1 March 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			Mick Fitzgerald speaking on Sky Sport is worth listening to.  He words and emotion totally sums up what Elliott has done to racing.
		
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Would I be able to see that somewhere? I like Mick Fitz, he is a realist but has gothis head on straight.


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## piglet2001 (1 March 2021)

Laafet said:



			This and his illegal 'bar' - it's all building up to show just what a horrid person he is. The more I hear from my racing friends in Ireland, the worse it all is. Racing has a hard enough time as it is without idiots doing this sort of thing. He should know far better, but then seemingly as he has not respect for humans or animals then it is of no surprise. The horse in question was a Gigginstown horse BTW.
		
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What is his illegal bar?


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## Maddie Moo (1 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Would I be able to see that somewhere? I like Mick Fitz, he is a realist but has gothis head on straight.
		
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Its available here ATR


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## Crazy_cat_lady (1 March 2021)

Why doesn't this surprise me 

https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...hUIazloUZg4RNYTkoc5mtQ_xrub9im9zWgxDvU8T1CbzY


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## Clodagh (1 March 2021)

piglet2001 said:



			What is his illegal bar?
		
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Well apparently he has a bar at his yard and there are some videos of extreme partygoing, including women fighting and being cheered on. I haven't seen them, and tbh can probably cope with not!


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## NinjaPony (1 March 2021)

Just revolting. Really really revolting. The lack of respect, the utter contempt for a creature in his care. Imagine if that was your horse.

Cant help wondering what goes on behind the scenes with the live horses, if this is how he treats a dead horse...


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## Clodagh (1 March 2021)

Maddie Moo said:



			Its available here ATR 

Click to expand...

Thank you very much, what a sincere and eloquent speech.


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## QuantockHills (1 March 2021)

what a total knob


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## Lady2021 (1 March 2021)

The photo is very real he said it herself. Shame on him a total lack of respect to the horses owner.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (1 March 2021)

Michen said:



			If it's real and I was the owner of that horse I'd be beyond furious. What a sick thing to do.

Edited, just saw it is, what a complete creep he is. Urgh, I hope he gets stripped of all support.
		
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From what I've heard on other forums, so obviously may not be true, the horse belongs to one of his most prominent owners. Said owner has come out in support of him, which does not surprise me at all, given his attitude towards his horses


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## Tiddlypom (1 March 2021)

What was the name of the horse? That must be common knowledge now.


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## Laafet (1 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Well apparently he has a bar at his yard and there are some videos of extreme partygoing, including women fighting and being cheered on. I haven't seen them, and tbh can probably cope with not!
		
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This and the fight between Kate Harrington and another girl while he egged them on, as it was all about him in the first place. The more I hear the worse it gets.


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## Laafet (1 March 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			What was the name of the horse? That must be common knowledge now.
		
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I saw somewhere that it was a Gigginstown horse but may be wrong. Which makes them standing by him all the worse.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (1 March 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			What was the name of the horse? That must be common knowledge now.
		
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I've only seen speculation on a racing forum that it was called Morgan, and owned by the Burgandy colours person who has now come out in support of GE. Given his persistence with Tiger Roll, I am not surprised and some of what he's done with his other horses


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## Crazy_cat_lady (1 March 2021)

Laafet said:



			I saw somewhere that it was a Gigginstown horse but may be wrong. Which makes them standing by him all the worse.
		
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Just adds to my opinion (not positive) of that organisation.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (1 March 2021)

Be interesting to see what the pundits do when interviewing him, especially at Cheltenham- will they mention it or not?


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## Kipper's Dick (1 March 2021)

I sincerely hope that the IHRB and the BHA are totally aware that the decision they're about to make about this appalling affair will be one of the most important and far-reaching judgements made in the recent history of NH racing.  I hope they get it right.


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## Gingerwitch (1 March 2021)

Kipper's Dick said:



			I sincerely hope that the IHRB and the BHA are totally aware that the decision they're about to make about this appalling affair will be one of the most important and far-reaching judgements made in the recent history of NH racing.  I hope they get it right.
		
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I just had to reply to say I singer everytime I see your user name lol


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## YorkshireLady (1 March 2021)

I think Mick Fitz is as honourable as the idiot whose name I do not wish to type is dishonourable. 

As others have said, this behaviour is is what will end racing before anything else. The arrogance is perhaps the most upsetting part.


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## poiuytrewq (1 March 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			Can I ask if the industry is as disgusted as the general horse world is ?
		
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In work today our farrier commented to me how the racing world usually sticks up for or defends “its own” and that how in this instance that’s just not happening, people are shocked, saddened and disgusted. 
We lost one yesterday and the idea of him being treated in any other way than with complete respect and care is incomprehensible


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## Squeak (1 March 2021)

Kipper's Dick said:



			I sincerely hope that the IHRB and the BHA are totally aware that the decision they're about to make about this appalling affair will be one of the most important and far-reaching judgements made in the recent history of NH racing.  I hope they get it right.
		
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I definitely don't envy them.  Especially with Cheltenham and the National so close.


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## Nicnac (1 March 2021)

Michael O'Leary: "We accept Gordon’s sincere, profound and unreserved apology and we will continue to support him and his team at Cullentra" Gigginstown House Stud vow to support Gordon Elliott after shocking photo 

Two of a kind.....


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## Rowreach (1 March 2021)

Slightly off topic, but not really, the LR Facebook page had a video of the Grand National from way back on it a few days ago.  I watched the video (I like NH but this made me feel sick) and it was fast and erratic and at one point there were two, obviously dead, horses lying on the landing side of a fence, while everyone cheered the others on.  As the camera moved on, it looked like someone put a jacket over the head of one of the horses.

It was the Facebook comments that got to me, people saying that this was what the National should be, wasn't it wonderful, with the big (dangerous) fences of yesteryear and large fields, and not one mention of the dead horses.

It struck me at the time (and this was before the GE pic came out) that it wasn't really good PR for a trainer to be posting a video like this, and the comments from people made it clear that it was the thrill of racing that was important to them, not the welfare of the horses.  I didn't go back to see if anyone ever actually showed any concern for them after that.

I think racing needs to take a long hard look at its PR, tbh.


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## Parrotperson (1 March 2021)

Apparently the BHA has the ability to ban his horses from Cheltenham. Let's hope they do.  He should eb banned for life IMHO. Digusting piece of sh*t


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## Elf On A Shelf (1 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Slightly off topic, but not really, the LR Facebook page had a video of the Grand National from way back on it a few days ago.  I watched the video (I like NH but this made me feel sick) and it was fast and erratic and at one point there were two, obviously dead, horses lying on the landing side of a fence, while everyone cheered the others on.  As the camera moved on, it looked like someone put a jacket over the head of one of the horses.

It was the Facebook comments that got to me, people saying that this was what the National should be, wasn't it wonderful, with the big (dangerous) fences of yesteryear and large fields, and not one mention of the dead horses.

It struck me at the time (and this was before the GE pic came out) that it wasn't really good PR for a trainer to be posting a video like this, and the comments from people made it clear that it was the thrill of racing that was important to them, not the welfare of the horses.  I didn't go back to see if anyone ever actually showed any concern for them after that.

I think racing needs to take a long hard look at its PR, tbh.
		
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I stayed out of that one. The boss put that post on the page for the nostalgic nature of it and most people obviously chose to ignore the less pleasant side of the race because things were done differently in those days.


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## Cherryblossom (1 March 2021)

I think the difficulty I have with this is that the racing fraternity claims to take good care of their horses. If that horse had died during a race Elliot would have been interviewed with a sad face talking about how upsetting this was for all involved. Instead it shows just how much contempt he has for the animals under his care.


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## AdorableAlice (1 March 2021)

I wonder if JP will leave his horses with Elliott.  JP has such respect in the racing world.

It is not a surprise O'Leary isn't bothered, but JP is a very different man.


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## Elf On A Shelf (1 March 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			I wonder if JP will leave his horses with Elliott.  JP has such respect in the racing world.

It is not a surprise O'Leary isn't bothered, but JP is a very different man.
		
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I have to say I would be disappointed if he didn't take them away from there. I can see why Chevely Park are waiting for the results of the investigation. They have some very good horses going to Cheltenham and moving them 2 weeks before is not a good idea but they will if they have to. I doubt the horses will return there next season regardless.


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## McGrools (1 March 2021)

Parrotperson said:



			Apparently the BHA has the ability to ban his horses from Cheltenham. Let's hope they do.  He should eb banned for life IMHO. Digusting piece of sh*t
		
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He cant come to Cheltenham surely. The whole meeting would be totally overshadowed


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## brighteyes (1 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I do 100% get what you mean. Maybe I am still a bit soft even after all these years but I would still rather be gentle with the body because whilst I am dealing with them they are still warm. They have only just gone so to me they are still there in a sense.

Don't get me wrong I have happily carved up and disected legs and hearts etc of horses but they were long dead and cold.
		
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Not whilst cheerily waving the parts about, phoning a mate and being filmed. presumably! 

I do not get why he had to sit on the poor creature. It was a pointless, distasteful and disrespectful idea.

I'm even sadder because I have one of these beautiful, intelligent, willing, 'ex-industry' animals.


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## AdorableAlice (1 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I have to say I would be disappointed if he didn't take them away from there. I can see why Chevely Park are waiting for the results of the investigation. They have some very good horses going to Cheltenham and moving them 2 weeks before is not a good idea but they will if they have to. I doubt the horses will return there next season regardless.
		
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I so hope you are right.


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## brighteyes (1 March 2021)

My sons had occasion to bury a deceased horse some years ago. They asked if there was a towel available to place over the head as they laid it to rest, so soil didn't get in its eyes...

I am once again dismayed about how blatantly disrespectful some people are.  He needs a damned good 'shake'.


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## ester (1 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			They have some very good horses going to Cheltenham and moving them 2 weeks before is not a good idea but they will if they have to. I doubt the horses will return there next season regardless.
		
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I thought that might be part of the reason not to move them, if he isn't permitted to go can they run under someone else's name if they are already entered or no? Do they have to be with a trainer a particular length of time first?


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## Elf On A Shelf (1 March 2021)

ester said:



			I thought that might be part of the reason not to move them, if he isn't permitted to go can they run under someone else's name if they are already entered or no? Do they have to be with a trainer a particular length of time first?
		
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It used to be 14 days but I think it may only be 3 or 4 days now. So no the trainer who enters them doesn't have to be the one who runs them.


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## Kipper's Dick (1 March 2021)

Squeak said:



			I definitely don't envy them.  Especially with Cheltenham and the National so close.
		
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I don't envy them either, but to my mind it must be along the lines of licence revocation.   Even if it's to take effect at the end of this season.  This man's behaviour is indicative of an attitude that speaks volumes about the man himself, and I can't see this attitude changing, although he may well try to hide it in the future.  The IHRB and the BHA need to decide if they want this individual as a representative of the sport.  A fine, even a hefty one, would be missing the point, somehow, wouldn't it?


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## Greencob (1 March 2021)

Jeni the dragon said:



			The latest statement I've seen is awful! Apparently he sat down to take a phone call! Imagine being the owner of that horse!
		
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That’s the worse part for me. 
you know where you’re sitting.
 I don’t buy the fact that he forgot where he was. It’s completely disrespectful to the owners of the horse and to the staff who looked after it day in day out.


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## JulesRules (1 March 2021)

To a certain extent, I'm in the camp that thinks once a life is extinguished, what remains is essentially for respectful disposal. 

However, can anyone imagine a scenario in any other sport where the trainer decided to sit on the unfortunate body of an athlete who died whilst training?


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## MyBoyChe (1 March 2021)

A fine, even a hefty one, is IMO, not the way to go here.  He has some wealthy owners so it wouldnt impact on him in the way it would a smaller trainer.  He needs a ban, although again, it will be his staff who will suffer the consequences


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## cauda equina (1 March 2021)

If other events are examined as a result of this (I'm thinking of the alleged fight in his 'bar') that might attract a stiffer penalty than what's in the photo


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## OldNag (1 March 2021)

I know nothing about racing and honestly had never heard of him until this story.
I hadn't seen the photo until just now.
I have read his statement. I don't buy his version of events, they just don't add up.
It's really disgraceful and I hope he that owners will vote with their feet.


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## Cortez (1 March 2021)

I am also in the "it's a dead body" camp, but he has been exceedingly stupid to do what he did. However banning him for life, etc. is a little over the top. It's not as if he has been exposed for being cruel to his horses. Bringing racing into disrepute, certainly, and he should be sanctioned for that and made an example of. The other stuff re bars and brawls is hardly life-shattering, and people's private shenanigans are just that; private.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (1 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Slightly off topic, but not really, the LR Facebook page had a video of the Grand National from way back on it a few days ago.  I watched the video (I like NH but this made me feel sick) and it was fast and erratic and at one point there were two, obviously dead, horses lying on the landing side of a fence, while everyone cheered the others on.  As the camera moved on, it looked like someone put a jacket over the head of one of the horses.

It was the Facebook comments that got to me, people saying that this was what the National should be, wasn't it wonderful, with the big (dangerous) fences of yesteryear and large fields, and not one mention of the dead horses.

It struck me at the time (and this was before the GE pic came out) that it wasn't really good PR for a trainer to be posting a video like this, and the comments from people made it clear that it was the thrill of racing that was important to them, not the welfare of the horses.  I didn't go back to see if anyone ever actually showed any concern for them after that.

I think racing needs to take a long hard look at its PR, tbh.
		
Click to expand...

What's the LR?

I'm not a member of, but am browsing, a racing forum which id guess the main audience of is those who gamble. I'm annoyed to see most of them coming out in support of GE and saying how people are unnecessarily outraged and he shouldn't have a ban or horses taken away- not adding well to the image to be honest- shows what most punters think of the horses as well

https://theracingforum.co.uk/forums/topic/gordon-elliott-2/page/12/

The one who's user name has ship in seems especially unpleasant


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## Crazy_cat_lady (1 March 2021)

Parrotperson said:



			Apparently the BHA has the ability to ban his horses from Cheltenham. Let's hope they do.  He should eb banned for life IMHO. Digusting piece of sh*t
		
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He should or at the very least get a long ban.

Unfortunately not a chance this happens especially with Tiger Roll and all the stories they could write about him winning 3 grand nationals on the horizon (personally I think TR should already be retired but unfortunately all his trainer and greedy owner care about is the publicity around 3 grand nationals potentially happening.) If it was a small trainer they'd get the book thrown at them. Not a chance one of the "big 4" gets this. Money talks...


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## Elf On A Shelf (1 March 2021)

Here's what will happen if they ban him - he gets handed a ban, he appeals, he can carry on racing whilst on appeal. Appeals can take month's. By the end of the appeal he could "win" it and be handed a fine. Thus the authorities appease the public with an x month ban but it would also allow him to still race at the big meetings.

CCL - the LR is the Lucinda Russell Racing Facebook page. A couple of weeks ago she put up an old video of schooling at home, life in the yard and Oxo winning the Grand National way back when with Michael Scudamore.


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## Kipper's Dick (1 March 2021)

Bringing racing into disrepute is the issue here, and needs severe penalty.  His behaviour confirms what many (rightly or wrongly) believe.  That racing is a numbers game, that horses are dispensable and are seen as commodities in a ruthless business.  NH racing has serious PR work to do right now.  And they could start by disassociating themselves from Elliott and trying to repair the considerable damage that he has done.  Though I have a feeling that this episode is going to hang around racing for a long time and will be like the veritable turd that won't flush.


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## honetpot (1 March 2021)

Cortez said:



			I am also in the "it's a dead body" camp, but he has been exceedingly stupid to do what he did. However banning him for life, etc. is a little over the top. It's not as if he has been exposed for being cruel to his horses. Bringing racing into disrepute, certainly, and he should be sanctioned for that and made an example of. The other stuff re bars and brawls is hardly life-shattering, and people's private shenanigans are just that; private.
		
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 I in the once your dead your dead camp, but we should have respect for both animals and humans, animals are often alive and then dead because of our needs and desires.
 They are our servants, and a lot of people make their living from them, and they shouldn't forget that. After the other revelations this week, it doesn't give professional horsemen a good name.


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## doodle (1 March 2021)

It’s just awful. I kind of see the once they are gone it is just a shell but the lovely lady who collects the horses once they are gone takes time to say hello to them, call them by name and give them a stroke and a pat. It takes nothing to have a little respect.

From the little I have dealt with the racing industry the attitude I have come across is once they have decided they are no good they just want rid. There is always another horse to fill the stable. Once they are dead then move on to the next. I am not saying this is everyone in the industry just what I have personally come across.


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## Kipper's Dick (1 March 2021)

honetpot said:



			I in the once your dead your dead camp, but we should have respect for both animals and humans, animals are often alive and then dead because of our needs and desires.
 They are our servants, and a lot of people make their living from them, and they shouldn't forget that. After the other revelations this week, it doesn't give professional horsemen a good name.






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Oh thank you, honetpot, for posting that.  He rode a winner for a very dear friend of mine once (on her wonderful homebred mare), and I got to meet him (briefly!) after the race.  What a lovely guy.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (1 March 2021)

honetpot said:



			I in the once your dead your dead camp, but we should have respect for both animals and humans, animals are often alive and then dead because of our needs and desires.
They are our servants, and a lot of people make their living from them, and they shouldn't forget that. After the other revelations this week, it doesn't give professional horsemen a good name.






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What other revelations?


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## Bellaboo18 (1 March 2021)

So, so very sad.

If this is how he sees the horses he trains, he's missing out on something pretty amazing. 

I hope his punishment is something he really feels.


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## Velcrobum (1 March 2021)

I have an ex-racehorse I bought via ROR website direct from the very very small string trainer. I was "interviewed" in depth as they wanted him to go to the best home that was suitable. They did not want him to go to someone who would school him some more get some results and sell for profit. They were horse people through and through all their horses are started correctly ie long-reined, lunged, go on the bit, hack alone, stand at a mounting block, do pole work/ show jump then learn to race. I got a basically schooled, well mannered bargain who is with me for life. There are many trainers who are of this mind set, then there are the Gordon Elliots and his main owner very very sadly.


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## doodle (1 March 2021)

It is maybe the difference between small and large strings. I contacted my horses trainer. He was plain rude to me, didn’t give 2 hoots about where the horse was now and actually couldn’t remember him despite only being out for a year and having him in training for 2 years.


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## Pearlsasinger (1 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I'm quoting your post but not specifically aiming the reply at you any more than ycbm and minesadouble who agree with you.
If your dog was off to the vets for an op, say a dental, and say it died under aneasthetic. Would you really be completely unruffled by the vet sitting astride its body and making gestures while photographs were taken? I just cannot get my head around that as an attitude.
I have untacked a horse that dropped dead and it's pretty difficult, but I was still as gentle as possible. I have held horses to be shot and put their head in a feed bag after taking the headcollar off, I have always been as circumspect as I can.
I have been on a flesh round with a huntsman who wouldn't have treated a carcass like that.
I cannot see it is defensible. Not just poor PR it showcases a whole attitude.
		
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I cannot speak for minesadouble or ycbm .

I have 3 times had a dog be pts on the operating table.  I have not asked for the body to be returned or individual cremation, I do not want the ashes back, although I have asked for the collar and lead.  As soon as the animal is dead , it's gone.  Our dogs showed me that on the day that we had a 15 yr old Lab bitch pts at home, because she was terrified of the vets' surgery, having had to stay overnight previously.  Vet did the deed with the Lab in front of the fire, with the other dogs out of the way.  Then we let the other dogs in to see what had happened.  They trampled all over the body, as if it were a rug, trying to get to talk to the vet.  They would never have trampled on her when she was alive but a couple of minutes later, at most, and they knew that she wasn't there.

I, too have held horses to be shot, I usually go into the house for the winching, because I really don't want that to be my last memory of the horse - that certainly isn't a dignified/respectful process.
I wouldn't have sat on the dead horse, nor do I think that anyone else should but that is because I think of the owner, rather than because I think it is intrinsically wrong to sit on a dead horse.  It is pretty obvious from the photo that  the trainer was showing off to someone and that most definitely does make his actions wrong on that day.

I must admit that I am more concerned about living horses being treated properly than dead ones.  It makes me very cross when I read on here about people riding horses when they know the tack doesn't fit, because they can't get an appointment with a saddle fitter.  I would rather get het up about that tbh.  But if my horse was in training with GE, I would be moving it pdq, because of the attitude, rather than because of the action, iyswim.


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## Steerpike (1 March 2021)

Good to see the BHA have banned him from running his horses here until the Irish racing board have finished the investigation


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## McGrools (1 March 2021)

Great interview by Mick Fitzgerald! Well done Mick xx


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## AdorableAlice (1 March 2021)

Respect to the BHA, well done.
Home - The British Horseracing Authority


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## ycbm (1 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I'm quoting your post but not specifically aiming the reply at you any more than ycbm and minesadouble who agree with you.
....
I cannot see it is defensible. * Not just poor PR it showcases a whole attitude.*

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I've bolded the bit that matters Clodagh. 

It doesn't bother me, purely on the face of it,   that he sat on a dead horse. After all,  there are plenty of people reading this sat on parts of a dead cow.   But it does bother me that nobody,  even someone who thinks a carcass is just a carcass,  would ever think of sitting on it!   It demonstrates his basic lack of respect for the animals in his care and to me it indicates clearly that he thinks of them only as tools of his trade. 

I am disgusted by the attitude that what he did exposes,  but not repelled by the act itself. 

I hope that makes sense? 
.


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## ycbm (1 March 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			Respect to the BHA, well done.
Home - The British Horseracing Authority

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Excellent.


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## Sandstone1 (1 March 2021)

Why does the horse look in such poor condition?


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## ycbm (1 March 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			Why does the horse look in such poor condition?
		
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It's racing fit and animals "deflate" when the life force leaves them.

This horse,  bought direct from training and still with his auction number on,  would have looked even worse than that dead. He is not unhealthily  thin,  he is just fit in a way we are very unused to seeing in leisure horses these days.





.


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## RachelFerd (1 March 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I cannot speak for minesadouble or ycbm .

I have 3 times had a dog be pts on the operating table.  I have not asked for the body to be returned or individual cremation, I do not want the ashes back, although I have asked for the collar and lead.  As soon as the animal is dead , it's gone.  Our dogs showed me that on the day that we had a 15 yr old Lab bitch pts at home, because she was terrified of the vets' surgery, having had to stay overnight previously.  Vet did the deed with the Lab in front of the fire, with the other dogs out of the way.  Then we let the other dogs in to see what had happened.  They trampled all over the body, as if it were a rug, trying to get to talk to the vet.  They would never have trampled on her when she was alive but a couple of minutes later, at most, and they knew that she wasn't there.

I, too have held horses to be shot, I usually go into the house for the winching, because I really don't want that to be my last memory of the horse - that certainly isn't a dignified/respectful process.
I wouldn't have sat on the dead horse, nor do I think that anyone else should but that is because I think of the owner, rather than because I think it is intrinsically wrong to sit on a dead horse.  It is pretty obvious from the photo that  the trainer was showing off to someone and that most definitely does make his actions wrong on that day.

I must admit that I am more concerned about living horses being treated properly than dead ones.  It makes me very cross when I read on here about people riding horses when they know the tack doesn't fit, because they can't get an appointment with a saddle fitter.  I would rather get het up about that tbh.  But if my horse was in training with GE, I would be moving it pdq, because of the attitude, rather than because of the action, iyswim.
		
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You are right - in that no additional harm is done to the horse by sitting on it after it has died. I worked in a vet hospital - I've handled a lot of dead horse bodies. But I have to say I was never tempted to sit on one and pose, even if I correctly believed that no further harm would be done to the horse. It just doesn't feel right.

The harm done is public perception of the sport - which was already very low and can seemingly only get lower. I'm half hearted myself about whether the public are right - there are lots of things about NH racing which don't chime well with me.

I have no doubt that NH racing will be banned or otherwise end during my lifetime - it's just how quickly that it happens really...


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## Sandstone1 (1 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			It's racing fit and animals "deflate" when the life force leaves them.

This horse,  bought direct from training and still with his auction number on,  would have looked even worse than that dead.

View attachment 67025

.
		
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I have seen dead horse before and racehorses but the one in that photo looks poor not fit.


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## Nicnac (1 March 2021)

Although I applaud the BHA for effectively suspending GE pending investigation it is a pity that the owners and jockeys suffer for his piss poor behaviour IF the IHRB dawdle over making their decision on the outcome and their horses can't race.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (1 March 2021)

Hope the BHA uphold that ban

What will the delightful owner of Tiger Roll, who was so keen to stand by him, do if that ban continues to Cheltenham and Aintree?!

It would be VERY interesting to see the reaction to him if fans were at Cheltenham etc...

If he gets to run at Cheltenham it'll be interesting to see what those interviewing him if he wins say


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## ycbm (1 March 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			I have seen dead horse before and racehorses but the one in that photo looks poor not fit.
		
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The trainer has no interest whatsoever in having an underfed racehorse in his yard. Personally,  I'm satisfied that it was just a fit TB whose muscle tone has all gone just before rigor mortis sets in. 

.


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## LadyGascoyne (1 March 2021)

I’d want the people handling my horses to be a bit down when they die.

I do agree that it’s just a body, and I know everything dies, but I’d hope they cared enough about the animal to be a bit sorry that it had dropped dead in their care. Just a bit subdued would do, not expecting wreaths of flowers and a catered wake.

I wouldn’t expect them to be making jokes about it, and I do not buy the “sat down on it accidentally” line. It’s a dead horse, not a freshly painted bench. People do not “accidentally” sit on carcasses.


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## myheartinahoofbeat (1 March 2021)

Yes, if he gets to run his horses at Cheltenham who should feel lucky it is 'behind closed doors' because I for one would not be giving any of his winners, the famous victory cheer.

I am saddened that a lot of racing folk now feel they have to justify their love for their horses, which was previously never in doubt, because of this sick individual.


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## Gingerwitch (1 March 2021)

MyBoyChe said:



			A fine, even a hefty one, is IMO, not the way to go here.  He has some wealthy owners so it wouldnt impact on him in the way it would a smaller trainer.  He needs a ban, although again, it will be his staff who will suffer the consequences
		
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His staff may be secretly hoping the arrogant twerk gets his comeuppence


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## Gingerwitch (1 March 2021)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			What's the LR?

I'm not a member of, but am browsing, a racing forum which id guess the main audience of is those who gamble. I'm annoyed to see most of them coming out in support of GE and saying how people are unnecessarily outraged and he shouldn't have a ban or horses taken away- not adding well to the image to be honest- shows what most punters think of the horses as well

https://theracingforum.co.uk/forums/topic/gordon-elliott-2/page/12/

The one who's user name has ship in seems especially unpleasant
		
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Mr ship though made some pretty horrific accusations on that forum and no one seems to be pulling that thread.


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## Gingerwitch (1 March 2021)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			Hope the BHA uphold that ban

What will the delightful owner of Tiger Roll, who was so keen to stand by him, do if that ban continues to Cheltenham and Aintree?!

It would be VERY interesting to see the reaction to him if fans were at Cheltenham etc...

If he gets to run at Cheltenham it'll be interesting to see what those interviewing him if he wins say
		
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Hopefully owners will show him the same respect and just move them to ensure they can race and then leave them where they are.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (1 March 2021)

Nicnac said:



			Although I applaud the BHA for effectively suspending GE pending investigation it is a pity that the owners and jockeys suffer for his piss poor behaviour IF the IHRB dawdle over making their decision on the outcome and their horses can't race.
		
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The owners are permitted to move their horses to run with other trainers under this ruling.


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## splashgirl45 (1 March 2021)

i am also in the    once they are dead the body is not who they were,    so i have never had any of my animals ashes back but if that was my horse that had tragically had a heart attack on the gallops, that picture and attitude would have really upset me and i would have never used that trainer again.  i thought like mick fitz that is was a fake at the beginning but when GE didnt deny it that pointed to it being real.  hope he has had a few sleepless nights...


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## Crazy_cat_lady (1 March 2021)

I think what has quite rightly bitten him on the backside even more, is the fact, quite rightly, it isn't just racing publications making it as a news article- if it was, it would have been a lot easier for the authorities to sweep under the carpet.

Unfortunately racing in Ireland comes across as a lot less caring, so most they will do is fine and slapped wrist


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## Pearlsasinger (1 March 2021)

Nicnac said:



			Although I applaud the BHA for effectively suspending GE pending investigation it is a pity that the owners and jockeys suffer for his piss poor behaviour IF the IHRB dawdle over making their decision on the outcome and their horses can't race.
		
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The owners can move their horses and still race them, if they so wish.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (1 March 2021)

Just looked him up on Instagram (I do not follow him), here is today's post.... know he may not be running the social media accounts


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## The Fuzzy Furry (1 March 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			The owners can move their horses and still race them, if they so wish.
		
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There is an echo in here! 😂


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## Elf On A Shelf (1 March 2021)

He doesn't run his own social media. 

The Racing Post has just put out an exclusive interview with Elliot. It is very well written and will be aimed at tempering the flames.


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## AdorableAlice (1 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			He doesn't run his own social media.

The Racing Post has just put out an exclusive interview with Elliot. It is very well written and will be aimed at tempering the flames.
		
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Just read it, grovel springs to mind.
Gordon Elliott: 'I'll spend my life paying for indefensible moment of madness' | Horse Racing News | Racing Post


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## The Bouncing Bog Trotter (1 March 2021)

Photo taken in 2019? Why has it surfaced now? Did he upset someone?


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## splashgirl45 (1 March 2021)

anyone can apologise when they have been found out, even murderers!!!!  he said it was a few years ago which makes it sound like a long time but it was in 2019 so not really that long ago IMO


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## Flame_ (1 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			He doesn't run his own social media.

The Racing Post has just put out an exclusive interview with Elliot. It is very well written and will be aimed at tempering the flames.
		
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As far as damage limitation goes, I'd say you can't do better than that. Good job, and perhaps some or all of it's sincere.


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## Shilasdair (1 March 2021)

I've been involved in the euthanasia of a number of horses through work - and have had to sit on necks to stop horses with broken legs trying to get up.

There wasn't one I didn't stroke, speak softly to, and love in its last moments though.   

I have never seen anyone in the equine industry being as disrespectful as Elliott in that photo.


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## Nicnac (1 March 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			The owners can move their horses and still race them, if they so wish.
		
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Yes FF said that too.  I wasn't aware they could if already entered but that's good news and hope they move them from his yard and they're not too unsettled by the change as could impact performance.  Cheltenham is only 15 days away so doesn't leave much time although if it were me, I would have moved my horse(s) as soon as that photo came to light.


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## DabDab (1 March 2021)

Yeah, there's a country mile of difference between being ambivalent about death & dead bodies and posing with one. A person to whom it even occurs to pose with the carcass of a just dead animal that was in their care, has a troubling personality - it is not normal behaviour.

Also, it is deeply reminiscent of the sort of posing hunting pics people used to take years ago with a tiger or similar that they had shot. Not even the most hardcore antis generally go as far as suggesting that those in racing deliberately kill the horses in their care....

Racing needs to throw the book at him.


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## DabDab (1 March 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			Just read it, grovel springs to mind.
Gordon Elliott: 'I'll spend my life paying for indefensible moment of madness' | Horse Racing News | Racing Post

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Woe is me.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (1 March 2021)

DabDab said:



			Woe is me. *For I have been found out*

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Corrected for you.


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## daffy44 (1 March 2021)

DabDab said:



			Yeah, there's a country mile of difference between being ambivalent about death & dead bodies and posing with one. A person to whom it even occurs to pose with the carcass of a just dead animal that was in their care, has a troubling personality - it is not normal behaviour.

Also, it is deeply reminiscent of the sort of posing hunting pics people used to take years ago with a tiger or similar that they had shot. Not even the most hardcore antis generally go as far as suggesting that those in racing deliberately kill the horses in their care....

Racing needs to throw the book at him.
		
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Exactly what I thought about the pose, hideous big game hunters posing over a dead lion, that was the first thing that picture made me think of.  I dont care how sorry he says he is, words are cheap, the fact that he thought what he did was fine, even for a short while, is enough.

I am also of the opinion that once someone is dead, the body is just a body, the spirit, soul, essence is gone, but that body still deserves respect and dignity.  I have held my own and other peoples horses to pts, and I have worked as a small animal vet nurse, so I've handled several dead bodies, and I have never lost respect for that body, and I'm very glad to say that no one I have worked with has done any different.  This is disgusting as it shows he has no respect whatsoever for the animal.


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## doodle (1 March 2021)

Exactly. All “woe is me” just because he has been “caught”.


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## Flame_ (1 March 2021)

I'll make an attempt at a tiny defense. I see dead sheep all the time. If someone got a dead sheep and put a hat on it or something, I don't think I'd care much and might find it mildly funny. This trainer appears to be totally desensitised to dead horses and while the behavior and humour is in poor taste, in fairness his attitude could be, and hopefully is, totally different to horses as individuals whilst they are alive.

You do hear of people like some police and medics engaging in humour (between themselves) about terrible events like fires and RTAs, that they couldn't let people hear or they'd be deemed "sick", but they're incredible for actually dealing with them IYSWIM? I'm not making the point very well but I think what I'm saying is that to be the kind of person who can stomach the really hard stuff, maybe a certain amount of insensitivity and a twisted SOH are actually helpful?

It was dumb though.


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## meleeka (1 March 2021)

Flame_ said:



			I'll make an attempt at a tiny defense. I see dead sheep all the time. If someone got a dead sheep and put a hat on it or something, I don't think I'd care much and might find it mildly funny. This trainer appears to be totally desensitised to dead horses and while the behavior and humour is in poor taste, in fairness his attitude could be, and hopefully is, totally different to horses as individuals whilst they are alive.

You do hear of people like some police and medics engaging in humour (between themselves) about terrible events like fires and RTAs, that they couldn't let people hear or they'd be deemed "sick", but they're incredible for actually dealing with them IYSWIM? I'm not making the point very well but I think what I'm saying is that to be the kind of person who can stomach the really hard stuff, maybe a certain amount of insensitivity and a twisted SOH are actually helpful?

It was dumb though.
		
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I wouldn’t have thought he should be that desensitised to a dead horse.  Presumably he doesn’t see as many as you do sheep?  If he does, there’s something very wrong.  

I also think that the fact the horse is someone else’s property is relevant.  It’s just disrespectful.


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## doodle (1 March 2021)

This is a general thought but there seems to be a lot of horses dying in racing. Be that in training or in races. Does this make trainers less affected by it? It seems to be a very common thing to happen.  If there was such a rate in any other equestrian sport there would be outcry. It just seems to wrong that horses give their all, literally, till their heart gives out and they are gone. I guess a sudden death like that is “better” (for lack of a better word) than a horrible neglected end. There is no end of horses to fill their place and that just seems so wrong.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (1 March 2021)

Just searched for him on Google- GE racing ' the first thing to come up isn't his website, it's links to articles around that photo


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## Elf On A Shelf (1 March 2021)

Kamikaze said:



			This is a general thought but there seems to be a lot of horses dying in racing. Be that in training or in races. Does this make trainers less affected by it? It seems to be a very common thing to happen.  If there was such a rate in any other equestrian sport there would be outcry. It just seems to wrong that horses give their all, literally, till their heart gives out and they are gone. I guess a sudden death like that is “better” (for lack of a better word) than a horrible neglected end. There is no end of horses to fill their place and that just seems so wrong.
		
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I actually wouldn't say there are more now than ever before but it is seen more courtesy of social media. There isn't such stats in other equine diciplines (except for maybe the Arabs and their endurance racing...) because there isn't the vast numbers of horses in other disciplines. 

As to becoming desensitized to death - yes you do become it a little. You don't get used to it but you learn to cope with it better. You learn to whack a smile back on your face and carry on to the end of the day when you can cry in private. Racing still has a tough image to it - rightly or wrongly - and we still have a job to do and other horses to look after. 

I am the one who stays with horses on the gallops that have broken or have had a heart attack. I send everyone else home because I know I can deal with what needs done. I can make the phone calls, I can sort the animal. And then I break down after all the necessaries are dealt with. I have never and would never ask anyone else to stay with the horses because I know I can trust myself. And I wouldn't ask one of the youngsters to do it. Nor the jockeys as they will have to deal with it at the racecourse at some point in their careers.


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## doodle (1 March 2021)

I wasn’t meaning that there are more now than ever. It’s just sad there are such numbers that die.


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## meleeka (1 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I actually wouldn't say there are more now than ever before but it is seen more courtesy of social media. There isn't such stats in other equine diciplines (except for maybe the Arabs and their endurance racing...) because there isn't the vast numbers of horses in other disciplines.

As to becoming desensitized to death - yes you do become it a little. You don't get used to it but you learn to cope with it better. You learn to whack a smile back on your face and carry on to the end of the day when you can cry in private. Racing still has a tough image to it - rightly or wrongly - and we still have a job to do and other horses to look after.

I am the one who stays with horses on the gallops that have broken or have had a heart attack. I send everyone else home because I know I can deal with what needs done. I can make the phone calls, I can sort the animal. And then I break down after all the necessaries are dealt with. I have never and would never ask anyone else to stay with the horses because I know I can trust myself. And I wouldn't ask one of the youngsters to do it. Nor the jockeys as they will have to deal with it at the racecourse at some point in their careers.
		
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Desensitised maybe, but downright disrespectful is unforgivable.


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## splashgirl45 (1 March 2021)

it is sad that so many die, but they are usually gone quickly and although it upsets me i still enjoy watching the racing.  i am much more upset about the lives so many horses have to endure, being knocked about by some elements of our society, driven when they are still babies and if they are lucky they get chucked into a muddy field to starve to death.  these are the animals that the press should be highlighting and more needs to be done to bring these people to justice....


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## Elf On A Shelf (1 March 2021)

meleeka said:



			Desensitised maybe, but downright disrespectful is unforgivable.
		
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Exactly, totally unforgivable.


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## Aperchristmastree (1 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			I've bolded the bit that matters Clodagh.

It doesn't bother me, purely on the face of it,   that he sat on a dead horse. After all,  there are plenty of people reading this sat on parts of a dead cow.   But it does bother me that nobody,  even someone who thinks a carcass is just a carcass,  would ever think of sitting on it!   It demonstrates his basic lack of respect for the animals in his care and to me it indicates clearly that he thinks of them only as tools of his trade.

I am disgusted by the attitude that what he did exposes,  but not repelled by the act itself.

I hope that makes sense?
.
		
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Makes complete sense to me. I am also of the opinion that once a being dies, its body is just a body, but isn't it just really, really weird to treat a corpse so casually? I don't expect everyone to treat a corpse with absolute reverence, but also, why would you treat it in such a flippant and frankly illogical way? For me, it exposes his attitude perfectly, and IMO he's a bit of a psycho...


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## honetpot (1 March 2021)

Flame_ said:



			I'll make an attempt at a tiny defense. I see dead sheep all the time. If someone got a dead sheep and put a hat on it or something, I don't think I'd care much and might find it mildly funny. This trainer appears to be totally desensitised to dead horses and while the behavior and humour is in poor taste, in fairness his attitude could be, and hopefully is, totally different to horses as individuals whilst they are alive.

You do hear of people like some police and medics engaging in humour (between themselves) about terrible events like fires and RTAs, that they couldn't let people hear or they'd be deemed "sick", but they're incredible for actually dealing with them IYSWIM? I'm not making the point very well but I think what I'm saying is that to be the kind of person who can stomach the really hard stuff, maybe a certain amount of insensitivity and a twisted SOH are actually helpful?

It was dumb though.
		
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 I have seen a lot of dead people, but I have never ever seen anyone be disrespectful whilst dealing with the dead. You learn to put things you see in a box, but that does not mean you lose respect. I have dealt with people who I have never met, never met their families, and you treat them how you would treat your own family. If anyone I was working with did something like that, they would be literally out the door.
 My horse died in a period of bad snow, so he had to be left for several days, eventually he had to lifted out by farmer on manitou forks to be put on the wagon. I am sure they had a titter and a moan about it, even in the cold the area smelt, but that's not the same as posting pictures.


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## Michen (1 March 2021)

Deleted as just can't write what I mean!


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## teapot (2 March 2021)

There’s now a video circulating on Twitter, similar situation - dead horse on gallops, about to be moved and a lad jumps on the back of it... 

No idea where/what yard.


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## Caol Ila (2 March 2021)

DabDab said:



			Yeah, there's a country mile of difference between being ambivalent about death & dead bodies and posing with one. A person to whom it even occurs to pose with the carcass of a just dead animal that was in their care, has a troubling personality - it is not normal behaviour.

Also, it is deeply reminiscent of the sort of posing hunting pics people used to take years ago with a tiger or similar that they had shot. Not even the most hardcore antis generally go as far as suggesting that those in racing deliberately kill the horses in their care....

Racing needs to throw the book at him.
		
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Years ago? If only. People do it to this day -- shooting big game in Africa and posing in triumphant photos over the body. It's terrible. But you're right. The photo of Elliot echoes those photos. Ew. God knows what he was thinking, especially when someone (who??) snapped a photo.

I wonder who leaked it. And why. They must have had a hell of a grudge.


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## cauda equina (2 March 2021)

And now 'his world is crumbling' and his staff are suffering
He wouldn't be using them as a human shield, would he?


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## Rowreach (2 March 2021)

Caroline Flack, anyone?


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## Apizz2019 (2 March 2021)

In the workplace, if you bring a business in to disrepute, you are highly likely to be dismissed for gross misconduct. 

It is more probable than not that this dismissal will follow you like a bad smell and you'll struggle to get another job within the same industry.

This man has brought his industry in to disrepute and I'd argue there is no place for him in it any longer. 

Fortunately, while he is self employed, there is a governing body that will investigate and appears to, on the face of it, view his actions to be incomprehensible, as do most of the general public, fellow trainers and racing enthusiasts. 

Racing is a tough sport, constantly under scrutiny and one which doesn't have a glowing reputation at the best of times. 

I worked at a racing yard and was fortunate to work for amazing owners and trainers who treated their horses with the utmost care and respect.

I think it's fair to say we can all be confident that Gordon Elliott is not the only one in the industry who has less respect for horses than we'd like. 

I have friends who still work in the racing industry and some of the things said casually in passing conversation have made my toes curl. 

Gordon is only sorry because he's been caught and that's the end of it. No ifs, or buts. 

He not only 'took a quick call and sat on the horse', he also raised his fingers to indicate victory and posed, while beaming from ear to ear. 

He's not sorry for what he's done, he's sorry he's been caught and sorry for the mess he's made for himself. And that's all. 

Someone who displays this level of contempt, for the very being that funds his lifestyle, is shocking. 

Yes, it's just a moment in time and we have no context as to why he did this but I'd say his body language in the photo appears to show he's proud of what he's doing and clearly has no care about being snapped for a quick pic. 

He deserves to be banned for good, in my opinion.


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## Gingerwitch (2 March 2021)

What so because people cannot live being caught out for there actions and who they really are, we are supposed to go " oh never mind you carry on. Do what you like"


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## Crazy_cat_lady (2 March 2021)

Dear goodness, if true and correctly identified on the racing forum I linked to above, on Twitter there is now a video of an amateur jockey sitting and bouncing on a dead horse on the gallops!


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## Elf On A Shelf (2 March 2021)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			Dear goodness, if true and correctly identified on the racing forum I linked to above, on Twitter there is now a video of an amateur jockey sitting and bouncing on a dead horse on the gallops!
		
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I'm too scared to ask if you have a link ...


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## Roasted Chestnuts (2 March 2021)

That photo is horrendous, what he did was inexcusable. I have just read a very thought provoking post by Phoebe Buckley on Facebook about trials by social media and the harm it can do. He did a very very stupid thing and no amount of apologies will make up for it.


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## Apizz2019 (2 March 2021)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			That photo is horrendous, what he did was inexcusable. I have just read a very thought provoking post by Phoebe Buckley on Facebook about trials by social media and the harm it can do. He did a very very stupid thing and no amount of apologies will make up for it.
		
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Trials by social media are the worst. 

I've seen it play out many times, much more so since lockdown but maybe that's because I've spent more time on social media.

Frankly, I think Gordon should have been truthful in his explanation - in that his ego got the better of him, he thought it was funny, an opportune moment that had to be snapped. Too big for his boots and too stupid to realise that friends today will sell your soul tomorrow.

If he'd have been honest about why he did this, I think there would be a lot more respect to be had for him but his explanation is pathetic at best. 

But 'I sat down briefly and took a call' just doesn't cut it.

Sad for him in so many ways but he deserves the negative attention he's receiving from not only the general public but also fellow trainers, who often close ranks when the poop hits the fan.

That they haven't on this occasion says it all.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (2 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I'm too scared to ask if you have a link ...
		
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***if this works sensitive content ***


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366531032321777664


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## Rowreach (2 March 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			What so because people cannot live being caught out for there actions and who they really are, we are supposed to go " oh never mind you carry on. Do what you like"
		
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I'm assuming that's directed at me.

I believe if you do the crime you deserve the time, but that the judgement and punishment should be dished out by the appropriate authority, not a load of increasingly vicious keyboard warriors (who clearly have never done anything stupid or inappropriate in their entire lives).


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## ycbm (2 March 2021)

I agree with you on the punishment but anyone is entitled to form a judgement.

It's not as if there's any doubt about his guilt.


ETA the trouble with the power of social media,  though,  is that the mass judgement of consumers can cause commercial decisions that are greater than the deserved punishment.

I don't know what the right punishment would be in this case,  he's brought the entire industry that he works in into disrepute and handed a massive gun to the anti racing lobby to shoot it down with.
.


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## Tiddlypom (2 March 2021)

Sometimes the appropriate authority needs a kick up the backside to realise just how badly an action may reflect on their cash cow.


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## meleeka (2 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Caroline Flack, anyone?
		
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I think he needed to be punished for bringing the sport into disrepute.  It seems the norm these days for justice not to be served unless there is an outcry on social media.  If there wasnt a fuss yesterday, would he have a ban now?  Probably not.    I’m sure when he allowed himself to be photographed he didn’t expect it to get into the public domain,  but things do and he probably should have thought about that at the time.  He isn’t some young and stupid boy like the ones on the video above.


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## Rowreach (2 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			I agree with you on the punishment but anyone is entitled to form a judgement.

It's not as if there's any doubt about his guilt.
.
		
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Says the woman who has a whole thread running on the basis of people not being judged by others


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## Apizz2019 (2 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I'm assuming that's directed at me.

I believe if you do the crime you deserve the time, but that the judgement and punishment should be dished out by the appropriate authority, not a load of increasingly vicious keyboard warriors (who clearly have never done anything stupid or inappropriate in their entire lives).
		
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Agreed - None of us are perfect but then most of us don't represent a sport/industry in a professional capacity, where there are standards and an image to be maintained. 

Gordon's level of stupid and inappropriate is off the scale and he will pay a heavy price for letting his ego get the better of him.


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## Rowreach (2 March 2021)

meleeka said:



			I think he needed to be punished for bringing the sport into disrepute.  It seems the norm these days for justice not to be served unless there is an outcry on social media.  If there wasnt a fuss yesterday, would he have a ban now?  Probably not.    I’m sure when he allowed himself to be photographed he didn’t expect it to get into the public domain,  but things do and he probably should have thought about that at the time.  He isn’t some young and stupid boy like the ones on the video above.
		
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I agree, he should be punished by the relevant authority.  I never said he shouldn't be.

Caroline Flack wasn't "young and stupid" either.  Her case never got to court to be judged by the appropriate authority because she killed herself first. Short memories.


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## Gingerwitch (2 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I'm assuming that's directed at me.

I believe if you do the crime you deserve the time, but that the judgement and punishment should be dished out by the appropriate authority, not a load of increasingly vicious keyboard warriors (who clearly have never done anything stupid or inappropriate in their entire lives).
		
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We have all done stupid things, usually in our teenage years  but then we grow up and realise that actions have consequences both good and bad. 
But whatever I did in my youth I would never have been as arrogant as this man, to be photographed on the very sentient beings that give him his livelyhood. Sitting on a dead animal, smirking  then when caught out he does not have a backbone and say, I was an idiot and I am sorry. No it was I sat to take a phone call, I did not think. Well I bet your thinking now.


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## meleeka (2 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I agree, he should be punished by the relevant authority.  I never said he shouldn't be.

Caroline Flack wasn't "young and stupid" either.  Her case never got to court to be judged by the appropriate authority because she killed herself first. Short memories.
		
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Caroline Flack was tried by speculation, rather than facts. It should never have been in the public domain (via police) until she was proven to be guilty.   This isn’t the same at all, his guilt is already proven (unless you believe he mistook the horse for a chair).


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## Apizz2019 (2 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Caroline Flack, anyone?
		
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I know what you're getting at, the whole trial by social media and the effect this can have, however, in the case of Gordon Elliott, the evidence is irrefutable, it's there in black and white, no matter what his excuse.

Sadly for Caroline, her case never got to trial because she was hounded by many keyboard warriors who took it upon themselves to pass verdict with no evidence whatsoever, aside from what had been reported in the gutter press.

I don't think parallels can be drawn between Caroline and Gordon. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's a tad disrespectful to compare them.


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## ycbm (2 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Says the woman who has a whole thread running on the basis of people not being judged by others 

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That thread was created *specifically because* of the problem you are pointing out,  that everyone has the right to an opinion.  It was created as a place where people were asked not to make judgements, for people in the HHO community  who needed a pressure release that day during the hugely stressful time we are all having over Covid.

The thread,  if anyone needs it today:

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/the-safe-place-to-feel-down-thread.787475/


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## Quigleyandme (2 March 2021)

The BBC has reported the British racing authority has issued a ban so he won’t be presenting horses at Cheltenham but as Elf advised the horses can be transferred to another trainer. The Irish press has been pretty damning in their condemnation.


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## Rowreach (2 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			That thread was created *specifically because* of the problem you are pointing out,  that everyone has the right to an opinion.  It was created as a place where people were asked not to make judgements, for people who needed a pressure release that day during the hugely stressful time we are all having over Covid.

The thread,  if anyone needs it today:

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/the-safe-place-to-feel-down-thread.787475/

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Oh I see you edited your previous post ...


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## dogatemysalad (2 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I'm assuming that's directed at me.

I believe if you do the crime you deserve the time, but that the judgement and punishment should be dished out by the appropriate authority, not a load of increasingly vicious keyboard warriors (who clearly have never done anything stupid or inappropriate in their entire lives).
		
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I agree with this. Trial by media is a worrying trend.

Having seen the photo, I felt it was a vile and disrespectful thing to do. Other than that, I cannot comment on the man. It maybe that he is a wonderful trainer who cares for the wellbeing of his horses. 
Was the photo just a foolish and rather nasty moment in an otherwise decent career, or was it an indication that the man has no integrity at all ? If it's the latter, I'd expect more investigations to follow. 
If it's the former, then surely it's enough for a temporary ban, a fine etc and sincere apology,  without cancelling every aspect of his life and work permanently?


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## Rowreach (2 March 2021)

meleeka said:



			Caroline Flack was tried by speculation, rather than facts. It should never have been in the public domain (via police) until she was proven to be guilty.   This isn’t the same at all, his guilt is already proven (unless you believe he mistook the horse for a chair).
		
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But that entirely proves my point that people are making their own judgments and trialling others on SM before the relevant and appropriate authorities get to do it.


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## Apizz2019 (2 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Oh I see you edited your previous post ...
		
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I'm not sure this is relevant to this thread or have I missed something?

I asked a few weeks ago on a thread, after I was shot down over a comment, that isn't the purpose of forums to have an open discussion and give your opinion. 

Apparently, it's seems not so if your comment doesn't fit the agenda or the general concensus. 

I'm of the opinion that it's healthy to have differing views and as humans, we all form opinions and make judgements every day - its how we're wired! 

And judge Gordon we will, rightly so imo, as the evidence is irrefutable and the excuse given is something I'd expect my 6 year old to say......not a professional sportsperson at the top of his game!


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## ycbm (2 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			But that entirely proves my point that people are making their own judgments and trialling others on SM before the relevant and appropriate authorities get to do it.
		
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The verdict isn't in doubt,  though,  is it?  The trial is over,  he's guilty.  Only the sentence is still to be decided. 

We could have a whole thread about the evils of social media but it is what it is,  it's here,  it's not going away.  

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make,  do you want the thread locked or something? 
.


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## Gingerwitch (2 March 2021)

This is a thread about George Elliot.
He is a middle aged man.
His livelihood is from the blood and sweat of animals.
He is in an industry that already has a cloud over it.
He thought it clever to gloat at the death of an animal.
Its now affecting him directly.
So now he is squirming.
If he had been a man and owned up and said he realised what a distasteful thing to do, rather than offer up I sat down without thinking. I would have had more respect for him.
Bet if you called those silly boys out on that video they would cry with embarrassment.


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## YorkshireLady (2 March 2021)

I would say he finally has someone help him with PR. I think his initially response was lacking in the extreme and he  needed to say sorry at the very least.

I don't want a social media witch hunt but its good to see the authorities acting...as they should.....and in the very least it will give others pause as well  - including young jockeys on the gallops.


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## Clodagh (2 March 2021)

Quigleyandme said:



			The BBC has reported the British racing authority has issued a ban so he won’t be presenting horses at Cheltenham but as Elf advised the horses can be transferred to another trainer. The Irish press has been pretty damning in their condemnation.
		
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I believe that ban is not a final decision, if the BHA think the Irish have punished him enough then they may lift it. I obviously have no idea what they would consuder enough.
I'm not sure he should get a permanent ban, but a suspension would be a good result and hopefully some owners removing their horses.


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## Pearlsasinger (2 March 2021)

YorkshireLady said:



			I would say he finally has someone help him with PR. I think his initially response was lacking in the extreme and he  needed to say sorry at the very least.

I don't want a social media witch hunt but its good to see the authorities acting...as they should.....and in the very least it will give others pause as well  - including young jockeys on the gallops.
		
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I doubt that a SM witch hunt will be needed to severely curtail his career.  Unless his owners are extremely well satisfied with his performance over time, they  *will* move their horses.  As I understand it, making a living from training can be quite precarious because owners become dissatisfied on the basis of all sorts of things that are not necessarily reasonable, or even horse-related.  And tbh, a social media discussion only becomes a witch hunt, if the person under discussion gets involved, at least by reading it, and cares about what is being said.  I don't know the man at all but I would doubt that he will care about the opinions of strangers.


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## AdorableAlice (2 March 2021)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			***if this works sensitive content ***


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366531032321777664

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Racing Post is saying the incident is being investigated, yard not named as yet.


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## Clodagh (2 March 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			Racing Post is saying the incident is being investigated, yard not named as yet.
		
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But the jockey is an amateur that works for Elliott? Certainly in the FB post I saw it came across as Ellliott's yard again. Disclaimer that I don't know if that is right.


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## Clodagh (2 March 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I doubt that a SM witch hunt will be needed to severely curtail his career.  Unless his owners are extremely well satisfied with his performance over time, they  *will* move their horses.  As I understand it, making a living from training can be quite precarious because owners become dissatisfied on the basis of all sorts of things that are not necessarily reasonable, or even horse-related.  And tbh, a social media discussion only becomes a witch hunt, if the person under discussion gets involved, at least by reading it, and cares about what is being said.  I don't know the man at all but I would doubt that he will care about the opinions of strangers.
		
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Thing is he is a good trainer who gets good results. I don't particulary like him as an indivudual, solely based on how he comes across on tv, but I imagine on the whole his owners are pleased with his racving results.


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## Clodagh (2 March 2021)

Ruby Walsh... for those on FB. I'm glad to see he has condemned it as he doesn't always come across as warm as others.

https://www.racingtv.com/news/walsh...CLTxq7psDMRqMsSieVnB1c4QbpeqflEYS6Cs_O1k3qkgo


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## Gingerwitch (2 March 2021)

Being reported the other man in the clip is rob James


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## Apizz2019 (2 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Thing is he is a good trainer who gets good results. I don't particulary like him as an indivudual, solely based on how he comes across on tv, but I imagine on the whole his owners are pleased with his racving results.
		
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The general public don't often see the harsh reality of the racing industry - the general concensus will sway owners opinions vey quickly.

The owners may be happy with the results he gets but if the general public were to be less that supportive of this trainer, that will likely change what they actually do about their horses under Gordon's care. 

I doubt many owners would want to or can afford to lose money to remain loyal if public opinion is such that race enthusiasts veto this trainer and the horses he runs.


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## ownedbyaconnie (2 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Says the woman who has a whole thread running on the basis of people not being judged by others 

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I find it almost impressive (and sad) how you and a few others manage to turn a thread of any topic into an opportunity to bully/belittle/pick on YCBM.  If you don't like what she has to say then be a grown up about it and put her on UI.


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## Velcrobum (2 March 2021)

The Daily Mail has this now

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/s...hows-jockey-Rob-James-jumping-dead-horse.html


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## cauda equina (2 March 2021)

Well there we are

What the boss does, the lads do too


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## doodle (2 March 2021)

Yes I think they get the best care when alive. But as soon as dead, injured or just not winning they are discarded without a second thought.


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## AdorableAlice (2 March 2021)

Kamikaze said:



			Yes I think they get the best care when alive. But as soon as dead, injured or just not winning they are discarded without a second thought.
		
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One only has to look at equine advertising to say that for a lot of horses sadly.  The 20 + yr olds looking for companion homes etc.  Racing actually does a lot to aid the rehoming of ex racehorses.


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## cauda equina (2 March 2021)

To say 'Any horse can be treated badly' isn't really the point imo
Racing needs to look after its image if it doesn't want to go the same way as hunting


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## ihatework (2 March 2021)

Kamikaze said:



			Yes I think they get the best care when alive. But as soon as dead, injured or just not winning they are discarded without a second thought.
		
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That’s a bit unfair. I think it’s the same across all equine disciplines and leisure, some act ethically for their horses, some don’t. It’s just more visible in racing because the numbers are higher and those that fall through the gaps are more likely to struggle in the hands of muppets given their breed. I do think TB welfare post racing is generally improving.


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## Clodagh (2 March 2021)

My OH is vaguely following this. He used to work in hunt kennels, he has skinned hundreds of dead animals. He said although you aren't sentimental about them, you don't weep over every dead hunter that gets shipped in, nor do you mock them. He's a pragmatic farmer and he is disgusted.


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## Quigleyandme (2 March 2021)

I’m a pretty pragmatic (jaded) person but this video of James coming after the unedifying picture of Elliott makes me sick to my stomach.


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## minesadouble (2 March 2021)

Just to give a little perspective I want to say how much more upset I would be if I saw footage of him abusing a living horse than I am seeing him 'disrespect' the body of a dead one. 

Lots of us will be sitting on a leather sofa, or a leather covered dining room chair reading this thread. I know it's not the same and I'm not defending him at all. He really should have known better, not least for the sake of the reputation of racing. But the whole social media issue is getting totally out of hand. Some of the comments on FB are just vile.


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## doodle (2 March 2021)

ihatework said:



			That’s a bit unfair. I think it’s the same across all equine disciplines and leisure, some act ethically for their horses, some don’t. It’s just more visible in racing because the numbers are higher and those that fall through the gaps are more likely to struggle in the hands of muppets given their breed. I do think TB welfare post racing is generally improving.
		
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Yes I agree some are better than others. I have only experience of 2 trainers. One who had had soli in training for 2 years. Was very rude when I contacted him via his forum and couldn’t even remember him despite having him there less tho an a year before. I understand he has a lot of horses in and can’t remember the details of all of them but he didn’t give 2 hoots about the horse. And please could i go away. 

The other had given me a horse on trial for a week before buying. When I sent him back I said when I would be bringing back. Yard was deserted. Horses stable already filled. The lad who eventually came out grabbed the horse and grumbled about no stables as he led him away. A good 2 months later the horses owner rang me. Asking why I hadn’t bought the horse and where was the horse now?

So just my very limited experience but they just wanted rid of the horses.


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## Apizz2019 (2 March 2021)

ownedbyaconnie said:



			I find it almost impressive (and sad) how you and a few others manage to turn a thread of any topic into an opportunity to bully/belittle/pick on YCBM.  If you don't like what she has to say then be a grown up about it and put her on UI.
		
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I did wonder what was going on here.....

Sad that someone feels the need to do this.


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## ownedbyaconnie (2 March 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I cannot speak for minesadouble or ycbm .

I have 3 times had a dog be pts on the operating table.  I have not asked for the body to be returned or individual cremation, I do not want the ashes back, although I have asked for the collar and lead.  As soon as the animal is dead , it's gone.  Our dogs showed me that on the day that we had a 15 yr old Lab bitch pts at home, because she was terrified of the vets' surgery, having had to stay overnight previously.  Vet did the deed with the Lab in front of the fire, with the other dogs out of the way.  Then we let the other dogs in to see what had happened.  They trampled all over the body, as if it were a rug, trying to get to talk to the vet.  They would never have trampled on her when she was alive but a couple of minutes later, at most, and they knew that she wasn't there.

I, too have held horses to be shot, I usually go into the house for the winching, because I really don't want that to be my last memory of the horse - that certainly isn't a dignified/respectful process.
I wouldn't have sat on the dead horse, nor do I think that anyone else should but that is because I think of the owner, rather than because I think it is intrinsically wrong to sit on a dead horse.  It is pretty obvious from the photo that  the trainer was showing off to someone and that most definitely does make his actions wrong on that day.

I must admit that I am more concerned about living horses being treated properly than dead ones.  It makes me very cross when I read on here about people riding horses when they know the tack doesn't fit, because they can't get an appointment with a saddle fitter.  I would rather get het up about that tbh.  But if my horse was in training with GE, I would be moving it pdq, because of the attitude, rather than because of the action, iyswim.
		
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You've summed up my feelings on the situation more succinctly than I would manage.  I've seen geldings in a herd kick and pick on one who was old and struggling.  Humans are a lot more sentimental about these things.  Whilst I find the action abhorrent, it is his thought process (or lack of) that led to his actions that would have me running for the hills.

But no, I wouldn't have sat on a dead horse out of respect for what the horse had given me as a trainer and also out of respect for their owners who are likely to have a more sentimental view.

Completely agree re concern for living horses.  I know people at my yard think I am mad at how often I get the saddler, physio, dentist, farrier out.  How much time, research and money I put into her feed, how picky I am with trainers, transporters etc.  A lady at my yard had the saddler for the first time in years and said he was only going to be with her for 30 mins.  I don't like to get involved but casually mentioned my saddle fittings last longer than that and I have them done every few months, how could she be sure everything was checked, was he seeing her ride etc and I didn't really get an answer...


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## Fellewell (2 March 2021)

Death affects people in strange ways. Often people who witness a death, even of a stranger, report having an overwhelming desire to be in contact with them physically. Even though they know they're dead.
I've seen dead horses being winched or even butchered to assist removal. People have ways of coping with this but it's not always what you expect IME.
I think it's unlikely that Elliott has spent this long around horses and gained results without having some kind of care and understanding for them.


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## Clodagh (2 March 2021)

Rumours on FB that the Chievely park horses were moved last night to Henry de Bromhead. I like him, and if it is true I do hope they run well for him after such a short acclimitisation.


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## Tiddlypom (2 March 2021)

Possessing a leather sofa, although I personally don’t, does not preclude you from wishing that the animal from whom the hide was taken did not have a good life and a good death.

There is a world of difference from being matter-of-fact about death, and being irreverent and mocking about it.



Clodagh said:



			Rumours on FB that the Chievely park horses were moved last night to Henry de Bromhead. I like him, and if it is true I do hope they run well for him after such a short acclimitisation.
		
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I hope that this is true.

ETA That would be these.


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## fankino04 (2 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Rumours on FB that the Chievely park horses were moved last night to Henry de Bromhead. I like him, and if it is true I do hope they run well for him after such a short acclimitisation.
		
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I hope this is true and that they have 
A great Cheltenham on the back of it


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## meleeka (2 March 2021)

Fellewell said:



			I've seen dead horses being winched or even butchered to assist removal. People have ways of coping with this but it's not always what you expect IME.
I think it's unlikely that Elliott has spent this long around horses and gained results without having some kind of care and understanding for them.
		
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 Our local fallen stock man obviously needs to deal with bodies on a daily basis.  He’s respectful of every animal.  Showing something respect isn’t the same as caring for it in order for it to perform to its best.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (2 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Ruby Walsh... for those on FB. I'm glad to see he has condemned it as he doesn't always come across as warm as others.

https://www.racingtv.com/news/walsh...CLTxq7psDMRqMsSieVnB1c4QbpeqflEYS6Cs_O1k3qkgo

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That's a good statement from Ruby, who like you said has a tenancy to come across as detached at best at times


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## Steerpike (2 March 2021)

It has been confirmed Cheveley Park stud are moving their horses


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## Crazy_cat_lady (2 March 2021)

Steerpike said:



			It has been confirmed Cheveley Park stud are moving their horses
		
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Be interesting if they are doing this just in case he's banned from Cheltenham, or if its actually because they are disgusted at what he's done

I'm sure the delightful person who's horses run in Burgandy silks and was so keen to defend GE yesterday won't care, though if he's banned from Cheltenham, he may do a temp move...


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## Andie02 (2 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Rumours on FB that the Chievely park horses were moved last night to Henry de Bromhead. I like him, and if it is true I do hope they run well for him after such a short acclimitisation.
		
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Just confirmed on Racing TV that the Cheveley Park horses have moved/moving to Henry De Bromhead and to Willie Mullins, reported that the unbeaten Envoi Allen going to Henry.


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## bonny (2 March 2021)

Andie02 said:



			Just confirmed on Racing TV that the Cheveley Park horses have moved/moving to Henry De Bromhead and to Willie Mullins, reported that the unbeaten Envoi Allen going to Henry.
		
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Losing these horses but especially Envoi Allen is a huge blow to Gordon Elliot, I’m beginning to think this is all getting out of proportion.


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## Apizz2019 (2 March 2021)

A statement from Rob James today...

I would just like to apologise for my actions which were wholly inappropriate and disrespectful," said James.

Speaking to the Irish Field, James added: "I sincerely apologise to the owners of the mare, the staff who cared for her, the horseracing industry and all followers of horse racing for my actions.

"To try defending my stupidity at the time would add further insult and hurt to the many loyal people that have supported me during my career. I have caused embarrassment to my employers, my family and most importantly the sport I love.

"I am heartbroken by the damage I have caused and will do my best to try and make amends to those hurt by my conduct."

Still disgusting and utterly inexcusable behaviour, but at least he is man enough to admit his stupidity and not fabricate a feeble excuse to worm his way out of the situation.


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## fankino04 (2 March 2021)

bonny said:



			Losing these horses but especially Envoi Allen is a huge blow to Gordon Elliot, I’m beginning to think this is all getting out of proportion.
		
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I'm not


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## Pearlsasinger (2 March 2021)

minesadouble said:



			Just to give a little perspective I want to say how much more upset I would be if I saw footage of him abusing a living horse than I am seeing him 'disrespect' the body of a dead one.

Lots of us will be sitting on a leather sofa, or a leather covered dining room chair reading this thread. I know it's not the same and I'm not defending him at all. He really should have known better, not least for the sake of the reputation of racing. But the whole social media issue is getting totally out of hand. Some of the comments on FB are just vile.
		
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You expressed my feelings very well, except that I have the bonus of not doing FB.


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## Sir barnaby (2 March 2021)

There is also a video of jockeyRob James sitting on a dead horse. It’s diabolical and I only hope the Horse racing board will take these two disrespectful people to account and ban them from racing. It’s a shame that they have brought horse racing into disrepute as the majority of trainers and owners and jockeys have more respect for the horses in their care.


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## Apizz2019 (2 March 2021)

fankino04 said:



			I'm not
		
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Agreed. 

Every action has a consequence, be that good or bad. 

His ego got the better of him. 

He is an adult who should have known better. 

He is a professional sportsperson at the top of his game, representing a sport which is more often than not under fire. 

He's brought the sport into further disrepute. 

He deserves to reap the consequences of his actions.

We all make mistakes, sometimes we pay in the harshest possible way, whether fair, ott or not. 

None of us are invincible and this is a very hard lesson that I'm sure Gordon will learn well.


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## cauda equina (2 March 2021)

Tiger Roll has been withdrawn from the National, apparently over a dispute about his handicap


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## bonny (2 March 2021)

Sir barnaby said:



			There is also a video of jockeyRob James sitting on a dead horse. It’s diabolical and I only hope the Horse racing board will take these two disrespectful people to account and ban them from racing. It’s a shame that they have brought horse racing into disrepute as the majority of trainers and owners and jockeys have more respect for the horses in their care.
		
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And you know this because ? Two old photos emerge and suddenly everyone is an expert


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## Tihamandturkey (2 March 2021)

ownedbyaconnie said:



			I find it almost impressive (and sad) how you and a few others manage to turn a thread of any topic into an opportunity to bully/belittle/pick on YCBM.  If you don't like what she has to say then be a grown up about it and put her on UI.
		
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Agree 100% - very childish behaviour which is seen repeatedly 🤨


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## AdorableAlice (2 March 2021)

bonny said:



			Losing these horses but especially Envoi Allen is a huge blow to Gordon Elliot, I’m beginning to think this is all getting out of proportion.
		
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Gordon Elliott has landed a blow on racing the size of a bomb.  He deserves every horse being removed.  Sadly the staff will suffer far more than the trainer.


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## Apizz2019 (2 March 2021)

bonny said:



			And you know this because ? Two old photos emerge and suddenly everyone is an expert
		
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I don't think anyone is professing to be an expert.

The Gordon photo is from 2019, so not old.

The video of Rob, I don't know when this is from. 

Doesn't matter in my eyes - they're both things that never should have happened!


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## tristar (2 March 2021)

tiger roll out of the national due to weight


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## AdorableAlice (2 March 2021)

tristar said:



			tiger roll out of the national due to weight
		
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Toys and pram more like.  O'Leary is in a tight spot, he has pledged his support to Elliott who cannot race in the UK.  Tricky !


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## tristar (2 March 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			Toys and pram more like.  O'Leary is in a tight spot, he has pledged his support to Elliott who cannot race in the UK.  Tricky !
		
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oh yes, of course


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## Elf On A Shelf (2 March 2021)

bonny said:



			Losing these horses but especially Envoi Allen is a huge blow to Gordon Elliot, I’m beginning to think this is all getting out of proportion.
		
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I am not surprised Cheveley have moved them. They really are horse lovers through and through who would have them laying in front of the fire in their living room of an evening if they could. I doubt they wanted to move them before Cheltenham incase it puts them off their game for 2 weeks time but their hand has been played for them by the BHA and the IHRB not sorting this out by today which is the last day they have to register the horses with a new trainer tp be able to run. It's sellers and claimers that can run quickly but just transfers are still 14 days. I didnt expect the horses to stay beyond Cheltenham to be honest. 

It has grown arms and legs, especially with the new video out from a guy that works/ed at Cullentra. It is an unsavoury image from someone who should know far better but also never thought it see the light of day. 

Britian has taken this worse and are more harsh against it than the Irish are. There is still the mentality that they are there to do a job over there where as over here we are much softer.


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## AdorableAlice (2 March 2021)

I think these words from Peter Scudamore say it all.  Having watched his and Mick Fitz speak on TV yesterday is was so obvious what the racing world is feeling right now.

_Comment from Peter Scudamore:
Source: Daily Mail
A groom called Vicky who works at our stable invariably comes in half-an-hour early and stays long after she is entitled to go home. She goes above and beyond what she is paid to do because she cares for the racehorses she works with every day.
Around stables everywhere, in Britain and Ireland, trainers will have their own Vickys who lavish attention and love on the horses they look after. They do not do the job for money but for all the right reasons.
That was what made me both angry and saddened by the Gordon Elliott picture. It is an insult to all the people who work so hard and maintain the highest equine welfare standards they can in the sport.
Convincing the general public that is the case after the storm caused by this brutal image will be a lot harder now.
That has been made worse by an explanation which many will see as a cock-and-bull story.
My father was a Grand National-winning jockey before he trained and my two sons work in the sport. I was brought up to treat horses with dignity.
Equine fatalities occur in racing, both on the course and on the training grounds. It is a fact of life, just as it is that somewhere in Britain today there will be horses or ponies which probably suffer fatal, self-inflicted injuries in a paddock somewhere.
Our job is to minimise the risks as much as possible. I genuinely get upset when a horse is killed and I am not so callous as to not question why we are involved in the sport at times.
To this day, I still remember the first dead racehorse I saw as a young boy when my father took me to Ascot races.
It left an indelible mark on me. You can never take equine welfare lightly.
Mixed up with all my emotions yesterday was a massive sense of frustration.
I can say all these things about horseracing and defend the staff that put their heart and soul into it but how can I expect someone outside the walls of the sport to believe me when they have a grotesque image of someone sitting on a once graceful animal being reduced to furniture? I fear some will have had their mind made up about the sport for good by the dreadful situation.
It makes me feel like a fool and incapable of defending the sport I love.
It sounds stupid but when I went round our horses yesterday morning I apologised to them. We ask them to do things in our sport, things which have an unavoidable risk attached, and you must respect them in return.
When I was still riding, I would sometimes go up to the horse and say: ‘You look after me and I will look after you.’ That is how it should be.
I am confident that almost everyone in the sport maintains the highest standards because I see it with my own eyes, but when the wider world see the Elliott picture, why would they believe me? It is indefensible, undermining and everyone feels let down.
I have been asked what penalty Elliott should be handed. There will be one and this will affect his career. Some people will never forgive him but I don’t want to see him crucified.
He did something crass and stupid. Maybe he should be made to devote time and resources to an equine charity. 

_


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## Velcrobum (2 March 2021)

Am I beginning to see a pattern emerging from Cullentra??? I wonder how many people are scrabbling to their social media to hit the delete button. I am not a fan of Daily Mail but good on them to dig this stuff up and expose it. 

I wonder if they could do similar to the place we must not mention that was being discussed elsewhere on HHO.....................


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## Wishfilly (2 March 2021)

Not sure if this has been confirmed already, but the other jockey is definitely Rob James: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...-apologises-for-climbing-on-top-of-dead-horse

The fact that two pictures/videos of this nature have come out from the same organisation suggests quite a callous attitude to the animals to me. Obviously it has not harmed them further, but I think it shows a lack of care/connection towards the animals when they are alive. If I was an owner, I would want to move my horses to another yard ASAP because photos like this would make me concerned about their welfare. Maybe that's a silly conclusion to jump to but I don't think an organisation with this kind of culture is the sort that would do the best for animals when they are alive.

I do think there are people in racing/thoroughbred breeding who do treat horses a bit like they are disposable- and equally those who care very deeply about their horses (just as there are in all horse sports, I'm sure). But this is highlight the worst aspects of the industry to the public, and will not be good for racing's general image.


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## Elf On A Shelf (2 March 2021)

Vicky is a good egg! I can vouch for that ipso facto! But she isn't the only one who goes above and beyond. I would say 90% of stable staff and those who work in racing do. We certainly don't do it for the money. We do it for the love of the horses.


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## Gingerwitch (2 March 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			Toys and pram more like.  O'Leary is in a tight spot, he has pledged his support to Elliott who cannot race in the UK.  Tricky !
		
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Oops x


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## meleeka (2 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Vicky is a good egg! I can vouch for that ipso facto! But she isn't the only one who goes above and beyond. I would say 90% of stable staff and those who work in racing do. We certainly don't do it for the money. We do it for the love of the horses.
		
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I’m pretty sure most stable staff aren’t in it for the money. There are infinite ways for earning easier money.😂


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## YorkshireLady (2 March 2021)

Super words from Mr Scudamore....made me emotional to be honest.


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## Wishfilly (2 March 2021)

Tbh, stable staff in racing deserve to be paid for the hours they actually work (and better than they are)- but that's a whole different thread!


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## daffy44 (2 March 2021)

Peter Scudamore says it beautifully.

I think thats one of the things that makes it so bad, because the public see the hideous actions, but not the amazing love and care from 99% of all racing staff, who are underpaid, over worked, and do so much because they love horses, pictures/videos like these are an insult to the vast majority of racing staff, as well as the deceased horses.


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## fankino04 (2 March 2021)

Just out of curiosity does anyone know how many horses GE has in training and how many of them are O'Leary's?


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## Elf On A Shelf (2 March 2021)

Wishfilly said:



			Tbh, stable staff in racing deserve to be paid for the hours they actually work (and better than they are)- but that's a whole different thread!
		
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That's definitely another thread for another time 😂😂😂


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## Velcrobum (2 March 2021)

fankino04 said:



			Just out of curiosity does anyone know how many horses GE has in training and how many of them are O'Leary's?
		
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You can probably work that out by going to The Racing Post website as they list all horses registered to a trainer, all horses registered to an owner but it might take some time!!!!


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## Velcrobum (2 March 2021)

Out of interest I went and counted the Gigginstown stud horses 72 with GE. He has 100's of horses by the looks of it. Was not going to count the whole lot!!


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## fankino04 (2 March 2021)

Velcrobum said:



			Out of interest I went and counted the Gigginstown stud horses 72 with GE. He has 100's of horses by the looks of it. Was not going to count the whole lot!!
		
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I did the same, allowing for counting errors as on my phone I counted 313 horses in training, so if the only owner that sticks with him is giggenstown the that's a lot more than expected to leave, although it probably won't work out that way.


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## Gingerwitch (2 March 2021)

fankino04 said:



			I did the same, allowing for counting errors as on my phone I counted 313 horses in training, so if the only owner that sticks with him is giggenstown the that's a lot more than expected to leave, although it probably won't work out that way.
		
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Hiw much would it cost to have a horse in training?


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## fankino04 (2 March 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			Hiw much would it cost to have a horse in training?
		
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No idea these days, a guy I used to know had a flat racehorse in training with a Newmarket trainer at £400 per week but that was many many years ago


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## Velcrobum (2 March 2021)

I also went and had a look at his Cheltenham entries 137 although some horses were entered in more than one race so I guess they run them in the one best suited to the horse ie ground conditions. I bet Cheltenham will not refund the entry monies - serve him right. I wonder how many other Cheltenham entries have also been moved so they can run??


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## shortstuff99 (2 March 2021)

It has already made the big animal activist pages, this is Earthling Ed who has 100,000s of followers 

https://www.surgeactivism.org/artic...p-a-dead-horse-is-just-the-tip-of-the-iceberg


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## Elf On A Shelf (2 March 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			Hiw much would it cost to have a horse in training?
		
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It costs the best part of 2k a month without extras for race days.


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## fankino04 (2 March 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			It has already made the big animal activist pages, this is Earthling Ed who has 100,000s of followers 

https://www.surgeactivism.org/artic...p-a-dead-horse-is-just-the-tip-of-the-iceberg

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To be fair his followers are already anti racing (they are against owning riding horses full stop) so I don't worry about him.


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## shortstuff99 (2 March 2021)

fankino04 said:



			To be fair his followers are already anti racing (they are against owning riding horses full stop) so I don't worry about him.
		
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But it has give more fuel for them to take the campaigning further.


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## Apizz2019 (2 March 2021)

fankino04 said:



			To be fair his followers are already anti racing (they are against owning riding horses full stop) so I don't worry about him.
		
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Yes, we shouldn't 'own' horses, much less subject them to ridden work.

They're pasture animals and are to be enjoyed from afar 🙄

Each to their own!


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## Gingerwitch (2 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			It costs the best part of 2k a month without extras for race days.
		
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Wow..... 2k x 300 is an awful lot of £££££££ esoeciallyvto someone who doesn't think.....


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## Clodagh (2 March 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			Toys and pram more like.  O'Leary is in a tight spot, he has pledged his support to Elliott who cannot race in the UK.  Tricky !
		
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Do Gigginstown have others in the National do you know?


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## Elf On A Shelf (2 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Do Gigginstown have others in the National do you know?
		
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They have 14 others still entered in the race 7 of which are guaranteed a run if they choose to declare. Mostly with Elliot some with De Bromhead and Meade.


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## Andie02 (2 March 2021)

https://www.attheraces.com/racecard/Aintree/10-April-2021/1715






Clodagh said:



			Do Gigginstown have others in the National do you know?
		
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## HorsesRule2009 (2 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Vicky is a good egg! I can vouch for that ipso facto! But she isn't the only one who goes above and beyond. I would say 90% of stable staff and those who work in racing do. We certainly don't do it for the money. We do it for the love of the horses.
		
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This is what annoys me most when people say horses are seen as commodities in racing/hunting /anything else. 
As its the poor stable staff that at deal with them day in and day out and as Elf says the majority of them really do genuinely care and go above and beyond time and time again. 
I know I have and always will do on the yards I work. 
Grooms/stable staff do it for the love its the only way as its definitely not for the money. X


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## Mule (2 March 2021)

Its interesting that both the photo and the video are from the same yard.


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## cauda equina (2 March 2021)

It makes you wonder what else goes on there


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## SibeliusMB (2 March 2021)

Mule said:



			Its interesting that both the photo and the video are from the same yard.
		
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Yard culture says a lot.

I'm another that doesn't get overly sentimental about the body of a dead animal. I am not against (humane) horse slaughter.  I've done necropsies on several horses (all humanely euthanized), and even helped our local hunt butcher one (gunshot) because I knew my way around and studied anatomy.  But even in all those instances I could never fathom disrespecting the animal's memory or dishonoring what that animal gave for you.  The optics of what GE did are awful for the sport and an insult to the horsemen who pour their blood, sweat, and tears into these horses.  I could go into a long rant about what the animal rights nutjobs are wanting to do to our horse sports, and handing them ammunition like this puts all of us at risk.  

I have to stop and remember there are great people in this sport.  When I got my last horse off the track, the owner/trainer kept in touch with me for years and loved the updates I gave him.  When my boy passed later away, he reached out and called me.  Almost five years after the fact, he still remembered all the details from the day I came to see the horse.  People like him and all those that arrive early/stay late to take care of these horses are always overshadowed by the moments of carelessness or heartlessness of others.


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## Tiddlypom (2 March 2021)

Mule said:



			Its interesting that both the photo and the video are from the same yard.
		
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Yes.

Also interesting that Rob James had others in the background who were laughing, but he gave the horse a pat as he got off it. 

Of course he shouldn’t done what he did, and he would only have 23 or so at the time, so no juvenile, but how much was he egged on? Is that common practice at that yard? If the boss does it, so shall we?


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## Wishfilly (2 March 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Yes.

Also interesting that Rob James had others in the background who were laughing, but he gave the horse a pat as he got off it.

Of course he shouldn’t done what he did, and he would only have 23 or so at the time, so no juvenile, but how much was he egged on? Is that common practice at that yard? If the boss does it, so shall we?
		
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I get the impression he may have been egged on or at the very least seen others do similar. I also felt his statement/apology felt a lot more honest than Gordon Elliot- like he genuinely regrets his behaviour. That doesn't excuse they way he behaved of course.

I do feel it suggests a culture at this particular set up, rather than in racing as a whole.


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## laura_nash (2 March 2021)

Article in the Guardian on it: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...n-elliott-horse-racing-love-affair-man-animal

I'm surrounded by Irish livestock farmers here and sadly corpses waiting for collection are quite a common sight, there was a sheep yesterday.  Obviously no-ones weeping over their bodies, but I can't really imagine anyone sitting on them or posing for photos with them either.  It's definitely not normal behaviour and does make you wonder about the mentality of those involved.


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## TheresaW (2 March 2021)

I have no real interest in racing if I’m honest, and until I heard a couple of guys talking about it in work yesterday, I had no idea who GE was. When I was told he’d been photographed sitting on the deceased horse, I thought back to when I had my boy PTS. We had a bit of a wait from when the vet left, until his body was collected. I did lay down with him for a couple of minutes, across his neck to say my final goodbyes, so thought, you know, maybe?

Read this post last night and today, and when I saw the photo, I was disgusted. I know I’m soft, but that was horrible.


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## Gingerwitch (2 March 2021)

I have an otttb, his owners were delighted when I got in touch. We send a yearly update to them, and I get a true sense of thanks from them from keeping them in the loop on their first ever race horse.


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## Gingerwitch (2 March 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Yes.

Also interesting that Rob James had others in the background who were laughing, but he gave the horse a pat as he got off it.

Of course he shouldn’t done what he did, and he would only have 23 or so at the time, so no juvenile, but how much was he egged on? Is that common practice at that yard? If the boss does it, so shall we?
		
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I also find rob James apology more truthful and heartfelt. 23 is idiot territory for men with mates. Not happy what he did, but I said earlier if you pulled these boys about it they would probably burst into tears with mortification. Mr Elliott on the other hand was in his 40's and has tried to wriggle out of his actions. If he had been a man about it in the first place he may have scraped by with some sympathy from harder elements of the racing industry. But he didn't.


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## Clodagh (2 March 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			I also find rob James apology more truthful and heartfelt. 23 is idiot territory for men with mates. Not happy what he did, but I said earlier if you pulled these boys about it they would probably burst into tears with mortification. Mr Elliott on the other hand was in his 40's and has tried to wriggle out of his actions. If he had been a man about it in the first place he may have scraped by with some sympathy from harder elements of the racing industry. But he didn't.
		
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I feel the same. He also described the body as ‘the mare’ which I felt showed he acknowledged it as a being. The pat looked like he was genuinely feeling a bit uncomfortable. IMO


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## [139672] (2 March 2021)

Deleted


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## Mrs. Jingle (2 March 2021)

ownedbyaconnie said:



			I find it almost impressive (and sad) how you and a few others manage to turn a thread of any topic into an opportunity to bully/belittle/pick on YCBM.  If you don't like what she has to say then be a grown up about it and put her on UI.
		
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Well said ownedbyaconnie, I think the tide might just (at last and thankfully) be turning here on H&H and in a very good and positive way and about time too.


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## Mule (2 March 2021)

I was thinking about Gordon Elliot being dropped by Betfair and it occurred to me that it's a strange relationship. A bookies sponsoring a horse trainer, wouldn't there be a conflict of interest with that, or is it a common thing in racing?


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## LadyGascoyne (2 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I feel the same. He also described the body as ‘the mare’ which I felt showed he acknowledged it as a being. The pat looked like he was genuinely feeling a bit uncomfortable. IMO
		
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Stupid as anything but I do agree. He apologised, made no excuses, he called her “the mare” and I also noticed the pat.

That, I think, is absolutely stupid and crass behavior. And he deserves to feel very ashamed of himself.

I think GE is in an entirely different capacity as the trainer responsible for these animals. He’s not a twenty-something year old boy, and he has tried to make some pathetic excuses. He deserves to face the music.


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## Quigleyandme (2 March 2021)

I’m going to say something that I know to be really stupid but it’s what I’ve been thinking since this picture came to light and I have since seen many pictures of Gordon Elliott in the media. Gordon Elliott looks like a cold eyed, hard nosed thug. For balance I look like a gargoyle.


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## Mule (2 March 2021)

Quigleyandme said:



			I’m going to say something that I know to be really stupid but it’s what I’ve been thinking since this picture came to light and I have since seen many pictures of Gordon Elliott in the media. Gordon Elliott looks like a cold eyed, hard nosed thug. For balance I look like a gargoyle.
		
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🤣
I was looking for a gargoyle emoji but this was the best I could find!👺


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## Andie02 (2 March 2021)

Mule said:



			Its interesting that both the photo and the video are from the same yard.
		
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It was mentioned on fb that it was a different yard, but not seen anywhere that it has been confirmed as such.


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## Snowfilly (2 March 2021)

TheresaW said:



			I have no real interest in racing if I’m honest, and until I heard a couple of guys talking about it in work yesterday, I had no idea who GE was. When I was told he’d been photographed sitting on the deceased horse, I thought back to when I had my boy PTS. We had a bit of a wait from when the vet left, until his body was collected. I did lay down with him for a couple of minutes, across his neck to say my final goodbyes, so thought, you know, maybe?

Read this post last night and today, and when I saw the photo, I was disgusted. I know I’m soft, but that was horrible.
		
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I had the same thought at first - I’ve sat huddled up to a couple of my special ones, leaning across their neck, resting on them for a cuddle goodbye. Never sat on one but I could almost see how someone could. I hoped and hoped that’s what it was, but the picture was vile.


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## Mrs. Jingle (2 March 2021)

Quigleyandme said:



			I’m going to say something that I know to be really stupid but it’s what I’ve been thinking since this picture came to light and I have since seen many pictures of Gordon Elliott in the media. Gordon Elliott looks like a cold eyed, hard nosed thug. For balance I look like a gargoyle.
		
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I have seen a few that look VERY like him sitting on a sulkies racing yearlings up and down the roads until they drop dead from exhaustion or get hit by other innocent road users legally using the roads and not expecting for one minute to find a fat great lump of cold eyed hard nosed thug racing a yearling on the wrong side of the road at a flat out pace.  Oh but wait - surely there must be a difference between these two species that haunt the horse world,...or perhaps not


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## bonny (2 March 2021)

Mrs Jingle said:



			I have seen a few that look VERY like him sitting on a sulkies racing yearlings up and down the roads until they drop dead from exhaustion or get hit by other innocent road users legally using the roads and not expecting for one minute to find a fat great lump of cold eyed hard nosed thug racing a yearling on the wrong side of the road at a flat out pace.  Oh but wait - surely there must be a difference between these two species that haunt the horse world,...or perhaps not

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That’s a really bitchy thing to say


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## Mrs. Jingle (2 March 2021)

bonny said:



			That’s a really bitchy thing to say
		
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No dear don't be ridiculous, not bitchy my opinion is based on my experience- it is a fact of life here where I live and yes that excuse for a horseman does look VERY like plenty I have seen around this way abusing horses.

My remark was based on my own instant reaction when I saw said 'gentleman' sitting astride the dead horse, when another poster expressed their initial opinion and impression of the 'horseman' under discussion I had to agree and share my first impression of said 'gentleman'. OK? but carry on Bonny, you usually do when it is my opinion you are commenting on.


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## Orangehorse (2 March 2021)

So what does everyone want to happen? Drive him out of business, his staff to lose their jobs? Worse?

There should be sanctions, and no doubt the Irish Racing Board will impose a suitable punishment.


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## Gingerwitch (2 March 2021)

Orangehorse said:



			So what does everyone want to happen? Drive him out of business, his staff to lose their jobs? Worse?

There should be sanctions, and no doubt the Irish Racing Board will impose a suitable punishment.
		
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Yes.
The good staff will find good jobs, the bad wont.
Tell me will ge be made to run up a gallop and give his all until his heart  explodes..... then be mocked for dying ?
No dont think so.


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## Gingerwitch (2 March 2021)

Who on here remembers the CEO of Ratners ? He mocked his client base.
I think Mr Elliott has had a Ratner moment.


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## Elf On A Shelf (2 March 2021)

Orangehorse said:



			So what does everyone want to happen? Drive him out of business, his staff to lose their jobs? Worse?

There should be sanctions, and no doubt the Irish Racing Board will impose a suitable punishment.
		
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To be honest for the public perception he needs a 6 or so month ban which he can then appeal straight away to allow him to continue racing and bring his horses to Cheltenham and Aintree. Let the dust settle and put out a quiet press release of the result of the appeal which would change from a ban to a huge fine. No one loses their jobs. The yard isn't shut down etc.

In reality I think he will get a massive fine. Charles Byrne was a 6 month ban the other week because not only did he dope a horse he then layed it in the race. Firstly sedating a horse that is about to race is utterly reckless and dangerous to both horse and jockey - over jumps btw not flat. Secondly it is against all rules of racing for the horses to have drugs in their systen. Thirdly trainers can not lay their own horses to lose. He deserves his ban and fine and what he did was much much worse than what Elliot did no matter how crass the image is.


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## Orangehorse (2 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			To be honest for the public perception he needs a 6 or so month ban which he can then appeal straight away to allow him to continue racing and bring his horses to Cheltenham and Aintree. Let the dust settle and put out a quiet press release of the result of the appeal which would change from a ban to a huge fine. No one loses their jobs. The yard isn't shut down etc.

In reality I think he will get a massive fine. Charles Byrne was a 6 month ban the other week because not only did he dope a horse he then layed it in the race. Firstly sedating a horse that is about to race is utterly reckless and dangerous to both horse and jockey - over jumps btw not flat. Secondly it is against all rules of racing for the horses to have drugs in their systen. Thirdly trainers can not lay their own horses to lose. He deserves his ban and fine and what he did was much much worse than what Elliot did no matter how crass the image is.
		
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Totally agree.


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## ycbm (2 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			in  reality I think he will get a massive fine. Charles Byrne was a 6 month ban the other week because not only did he dope a horse he then layed it in the race. Firstly sedating a horse that is about to race is utterly reckless and dangerous to both horse and jockey - over jumps btw not flat. Secondly it is against all rules of racing for the horses to have drugs in their systen. Thirdly trainers can not lay their own horses to lose. He deserves his ban and fine and what he did was much much worse than what Elliot did no matter how crass the image is.
		
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How is that not a lifetime ban offence? 
.


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## Gingerwitch (2 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			To be honest for the public perception he needs a 6 or so month ban which he can then appeal straight away to allow him to continue racing and bring his horses to Cheltenham and Aintree. Let the dust settle and put out a quiet press release of the result of the appeal which would change from a ban to a huge fine. No one loses their jobs. The yard isn't shut down etc.

In reality I think he will get a massive fine. Charles Byrne was a 6 month ban the other week because not only did he dope a horse he then layed it in the race. Firstly sedating a horse that is about to race is utterly reckless and dangerous to both horse and jockey - over jumps btw not flat. Secondly it is against all rules of racing for the horses to have drugs in their systen. Thirdly trainers can not lay their own horses to lose. He deserves his ban and fine and what he did was much much worse than what Elliot did no matter how crass the image is.
		
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So nothing really will happen.


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## bonny (2 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			How is that not a lifetime ban offence? 
.
		
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There is no proof


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## Clodagh (2 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			How is that not a lifetime ban offence?
.
		
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He was not found guilty of nobbling, but of allowing the horse to b e nobbled. This is Ireland, their racing stats have to be seen to be believed! I'm very sorry all honest Irish racing people.


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## Apizz2019 (2 March 2021)

Deleted as I'm rubbish at quoting part of a thread 🙄🙄


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## Keep Trying (2 March 2021)

Two different instances involving the bodies of deceased race horses....
Maybe at the same yard....
Is this some sort of weird/sick/bizarre yard ritual??


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## meleeka (2 March 2021)

Keep Trying said:



			Two different instances involving the bodies of deceased race horses....
Maybe at the same yard....
Is this some sort of weird/sick/bizarre yard ritual??
		
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Id also like to know how many horses die in training and particularly at this yard?  Is it one every week or month or 
Year?


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## neddy man (2 March 2021)

Interestingly  #271 entries for Cheltenham have to be in by today but no comment from IHRB so it seems Elf will probably be right with her prediction on #323. Glad Tiger Roll has been withdrawn from the Grand National it's time to retire him.


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## DabDab (3 March 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			So nothing really will happen.
		
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I think a fine and temporary ban is appropriate. It's a horrible image, and while I certainly wouldn't want to hang out with the guy or let him train a horse of mine, he didn't actually cause any harm at the moment that photo was taken.

The damage done is to the reputation of racing, and there is no penalty that can undo that now. That image will live forever more in the public domain, to be plastered on the top of emotive articles written by the anti-racing lobby.


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## Gingerwitch (3 March 2021)

Someone must really have it in for him, the timing could not have been any better for maximum attention.
As for his biggest supporter, well we see the arrogant way he treats people that use his services, so not surprised he is not bothered by what the public opinion may be.


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## McGrools (3 March 2021)

I hope he doesnt bring his horses to Cheltenham. They will have good chances of winning and the commentators are going to have a hell of a job dodging the elephant in the room.


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## Peregrine Falcon (3 March 2021)

Jamie Snowden, "Reputations take a lifetime to make and a moment to break".


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## rascal (3 March 2021)

The thoughtless idiot has a ban in uk, he did admit the photo was real, really do hope the ban is made life time, and the arrogant prat loses his yard.


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## fankino04 (3 March 2021)

rascal said:



			The thoughtless idiot has a ban in uk, he did admit the photo was real, really do hope the ban is made life time, and the arrogant prat loses his yard.
		
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I agree that I don't want to see him making a living with horses in the future however I think a lifetime ban would be wrong when compared with other sentences handed down for other things. My wish is that he receives a substantial ban so all owners move their horses and then when he can start back up everyone chooses to have nothing to do with him.


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## tristar (3 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			He was not found guilty of nobbling, but of allowing the horse to b e nobbled. This is Ireland, their racing stats have to be seen to be believed! I'm very sorry all honest Irish racing people.
		
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sure i heard somewhere that horse racing ireland is installing cctv in all yards on racecourses to stop nobbling


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## AdorableAlice (3 March 2021)

rascal said:



			The thoughtless idiot has a ban in uk, he did admit the photo was real, really do hope the ban is made life time, and the arrogant prat loses his yard.
		
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Have a thought for the 80 staff and all the add on services that the yard employee.  They are all affected by the actions of one man.


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## Pearlsasinger (3 March 2021)

If GE were to be banned the horses would be moved to other yards, the staff would be needed elsewhere, surely?


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## AdorableAlice (3 March 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			If GE were to be banned the horses would be moved to other yards, the staff would be needed elsewhere, surely?
		
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You would hope so, the staff would be highly experienced.  The yard may keep going with another name on the licence.  Owners will have to make decisions after Friday and the outcome of the hearing.  Racing Post is reporting another major sponsor gone.


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## EASTIE17 (3 March 2021)

tristar said:



			sure i heard somewhere that horse racing ireland is installing cctv in all yards on racecourses to stop nobbling
		
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That was supposed to have happened years ago and funding was released for it, so far only 1 has. Draw your own conclusions


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## Parrotperson (3 March 2021)

McGrools said:



			I hope he doesnt bring his horses to Cheltenham. They will have good chances of winning and the commentators are going to have a hell of a job dodging the elephant in the room.
		
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yeh. I was wondering about that. ITV Racing will be damned if they do and damned if they don't with regards to how much they say about or condemn Elliot. My feeling is he won't be allowed any runners at Cheltenham. Which will get O'Leary's back up again. 

My problem is this: if that's what they do to the dead horses what are they doing to the live ones?  

I know how much the stable staff care. (Elf makes that very obvious in all her posts, which are very enjoyable btw!) But I've worked on two yards over the years where it was all about the money and damn the horses. I once found a 3 year old in his stable with no bedding/water with his tack on and his reins tied to his girth in such a way that he could move his head. All because he'd been "naughty" when ridden that day. I untacked him put him in a different stake and handed in my resignation.

And this is what worries me about Elliot. He's raking in what? £600,000 a month (300 horses @ £2000pm minimum?). Now I know there are overheads obviously but that's still all lot of profit. Maybe he's just been seduced by the money now? Bearing in m ind he gets a % of prize money too. 

I think the best option so the staff don't suffer is for his assistant to take over the training duties and Elliot gets a ban of say 6 months. and a heavy fine.


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## Errin Paddywack (3 March 2021)

I see the Rob James photo well precedes the GE one.  Part of his apology.

_“I would just like to apologise for my actions which were wholly inappropriate and disrespectful to a lovely five-year-old mare, who unfortunately suffered a sudden cardiac arrest while at exercise earlier that morning, April 30, 2016._

I also note that that mare looked well fed and shiny.  The one GE was sitting on looked very poor to me, did not look a well cared for horse at all.


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## fankino04 (3 March 2021)

Many many years ago I did my work experience from school in a very successful 2 year old flat trainers yard and the culture there was terrible. The horses were kept in an almost perpetual state of fear as the adraneline made them run faster, stable staff would enter stables with a shavings fork raised above their heads shouting at the horses who would pin themselves in the corner away from them or in some cases aggressively charge at anyone entering the stable. If you truly loved horses you couldn't have worked there for long. It really put me off racing until I went to mark Johnson's with a friend who rode exercise for him and saw how different his horses were and realised there are just some bad ones out there but also good ones too.


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## Quigleyandme (3 March 2021)

The Morans have severed their company’s sponsorship deal with Elliott’s yard but have not removed their privately owned horses (nine runners entered for Cheltenham I believe) pending the outcome of IHRB hearing on Friday.


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## Gingerwitch (3 March 2021)

I wonder what the house


Quigleyandme said:



			The Morans have severed their company’s sponsorship deal with Elliott’s yard but have not removed their privately owned horses (nine runners entered for Cheltenham I believe) pending the outcome of IHRB hearing on Friday.
		
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I bet that there is more to this though. We are what 13 days from the start on 16th, not sure when these would travel. With the eyes if the world on him, nothing else bad should happen to animals in his care. Would you not think if you had a chance if winning stay put til they rin, then just have another yard for them to go to when they have run.
Called edging your bets but that would be a super up yours if they had huge wins and Mr Elliott then lost them. A bit like in bullseye.... this is what you could have won.....


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## Quigleyandme (3 March 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			I wonder what the house

I bet that there is more to this though. We are what 13 days from the start on 16th, not sure when these would travel. With the eyes if the world on him, nothing else bad should happen to animals in his care. Would you not think if you had a chance if winning stay put til they rin, then just have another yard for them to go to when they have run.
Called edging your bets but that would be a super up yours if they had huge wins and Mr Elliott then lost them. A bit like in bullseye.... this is what you could have won.....
		
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Yes, I think you are right GW. They have some very good horses running at Cheltenham and it would be hugely disruptive to move them to a different establishment now.


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## Archangel (3 March 2021)

meleeka said:



			Id also like to know how many horses die in training and particularly at this yard?  Is it one every week or month or
Year?
		
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I would like to know too.  Is it a thing that fit, young, horses, just drop dead at home on the gallops?


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## Nicnac (3 March 2021)

DabDab said:



			I think a fine and temporary ban is appropriate. It's a horrible image, and while I certainly wouldn't want to hang out with the guy or let him train a horse of mine, he didn't actually cause any harm at the moment that photo was taken.

The damage done is to the reputation of racing, and there is no penalty that can undo that now. That image will live forever more in the public domain, to be plastered on the top of emotive articles written by the anti-racing lobby.
		
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DabDab has hit the nail on the head as to appropriate outcome and factual account of the damage done.  

I feel uncomfortable with the calls for lifetime bans and even worse threats etc.  I don't know the man and neither do 99.9% of people commenting whether here or on other apps.  Trial by social media doesn't sit well with me.


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## Gingerwitch (3 March 2021)

Nicnac said:



			DabDab has hit the nail on the head as to appropriate outcome and factual account of the damage done. 

I feel uncomfortable with the calls for lifetime bans and even worse threats etc.  I don't know the man and neither do 99.9% of people commenting whether here or on other apps.  Trial by social media doesn't sit well with me.
		
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Nothing to trial. He admitted it. 
Bug difference.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (3 March 2021)

A 1 year ban and a large fine would seem appropriate to me for bringing the sport into disrepute. 
After all, in most other sports a year ban is pretty average under the disrepute stigma.


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## bonny (3 March 2021)

Nicnac said:



			DabDab has hit the nail on the head as to appropriate outcome and factual account of the damage done.  

I feel uncomfortable with the calls for lifetime bans and even worse threats etc.  I don't know the man and neither do 99.9% of people commenting whether here or on other apps.  Trial by social media doesn't sit well with me.
		
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Just this, there is nothing that the authorities can do that’s worse that what’s happening on social media. It’s horrible and out of proportion and I suspect a lot of the truly vile things that people are saying are being said by those who had never even heard of Gordon Elliot before all this started.


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## Clodagh (3 March 2021)

Archangel said:



			I would like to know too.  Is it a thing that fit, young, horses, just drop dead at home on the gallops?
		
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The back page of Telegraph sport has a very anti racing comment piece in it and the author says it is 3 a week. Quoting Animal Aid. That is an awful lot.


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## Tiddlypom (3 March 2021)

Not only have we got the GE/RJ dead horses thing going on in racing, but next week it’s the magistrates’ hearing into the charge of ‘intentionally encouraging or assisting others to commit an offence under the Hunting Act’ against the Director of the Masters of Foxhounds Association.

Both are self inflicted grievous blows into countryside and equestrian sport, and are playing right into the antis’ hands.

Grim times, with so much fall out.


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## Clodagh (3 March 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Not only have we got the GE/RJ dead horses thing going on in racing, but next week it’s the magistrates’ hearing into the charge of ‘intentionally encouraging or assisting others to commit an offence under the Hunting Act’ against the Director of the Masters of Foxhounds Association.

Both are self inflicted grievous blows into countryside and equestrian sport, and are playing right into the antis’ hands.

Grim times, with so much fall out.
		
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I don't think the hunting dickwads (are we allowed to say that on here!?) are comparable to GE. Most people haven't heard anything about it and have no opinion on the matter, a lot of people from all walks of life have some knowledge and an opinion about mocking dead racehorses.


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## Elf On A Shelf (3 March 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			I wonder what the house

I bet that there is more to this though. We are what 13 days from the start on 16th, not sure when these would travel. With the eyes if the world on him, nothing else bad should happen to animals in his care. Would you not think if you had a chance if winning stay put til they rin, then just have another yard for them to go to when they have run.
Called edging your bets but that would be a super up yours if they had huge wins and Mr Elliott then lost them. A bit like in bullseye.... this is what you could have won.....
		
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Cheveley moved their horses to guarantee them a run. If the British ban on Elliotts runners isn't lifted then they won't be running anyway.

As to young horses dropping dead - yes. Quite simply. They do. Racehorses have quite big hearts and some are too big for their body to cope with hence they pop like baloons sometimes.


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## Lady2021 (3 March 2021)

This isn’t targeted at anyone He  is Ireland top trainer and he has had a lot of winners . They aren’t going to ban  him  from racing he has to many people supporting him.  So the max he would get is telling off. Once the drop it the uk will have to lift the ban . The uk does seem a lot stricter when it comes to rules  they where very quick to ban him from the uk. 

My personal opinion is yes he done a stupid thing and it was disrespectful to the owner of the horse. I do think ban him is a little hash considering there people doing way worse in the equestrian world.


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## Snowfilly (3 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			The back page of Telegraph sport has a very anti racing comment piece in it and the author says it is 3 a week. Quoting Animal Aid. That is an awful lot.
		
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I don’t know what the stats are in terms of horses in training, but I’ve seen two non racehorses drop dead under saddle - one out hacking and one at a pole work clinic while warming up. A friend had a 9 month old colt die in the field in front of her, cantering along and then dead before he hit the ground; I know of other similar cases including a young Connie mare at a riding school. So it’s not unheard of. 

I assume with the huge number of TBs in training, it might happen quite a bit.


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## Gingerwitch (3 March 2021)

Lady2021 said:



			. I do think ban him is a little hash considering there people doing way worse in the equestrian world.
		
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That is an uncomfortable justification to me, maybe if he has severe consequences some others may sit up and take it a bit more seriously.


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## lar (3 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			In reality I think he will get a massive fine. Charles Byrne was a 6 month ban the other week because not only did he dope a horse he then layed it in the race. Firstly sedating a horse that is about to race is utterly reckless and dangerous to both horse and jockey - over jumps btw not flat. Secondly it is against all rules of racing for the horses to have drugs in their systen. Thirdly trainers can not lay their own horses to lose. He deserves his ban and fine and what he did was much much worse than what Elliot did no matter how crass the image is.
		
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Just be careful on this - as far as I can tell from the reports he was only "convicted" of leaving the horse unattended.  There was no evidence that he sedated the horse nor could they prove a third party had done it as there was no CCTV in the stables.  There was also no link proved between Byrnes and the betting account.


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## cauda equina (3 March 2021)

There was a great interview on the radio - possibly Brough Scott? - can't remember

Anyway, the gist was that the public (as a whole, not just racing fans) accept racing on the understanding that racehorses are treated _well_
It was a sort of contract, he said; the public will forgive the occasional awful accident if they think horses are looked after as well as possible

Sure, awful things can happen to any horse, but it's probably only in racing that fatalities happen in front of crowds of many thousands or on live TV
There's always an outcry from the animal rights people after particularly grim meetings anyway. We didn't think hunting would be banned until it was


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## YorkshireLady (3 March 2021)

That is it - its the contract with the public that is broken by this.


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## tristar (3 March 2021)

EASTIE17 said:



			That was supposed to have happened years ago and funding was released for it, so far only 1 has. Draw your own conclusions
		
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no this is since the charles byrnes thing when a  horse was sedated in the stables whilst left unattended for a short while at tramore racecourse in waterford, it was announced on feb 21st 2021


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## Mule (3 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Cheveley moved their horses to guarantee them a run. If the British ban on Elliotts runners isn't lifted then they won't be running anyway.

As to young horses dropping dead - yes. Quite simply. They do. Racehorses have quite big hearts and some are too big for their body to cope with hence they pop like baloons sometimes.
		
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Do you mean that their hearts are too big for their bodies? Or that their bodies are too big for their hearts?


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## doodle (3 March 2021)

I just hate the sort of acceptance that horses dropping dead when their heart gives out, be that in training or a race, is ok and “it just happens”. I do understand the huge numbers of horses in training makes it more common but if the same rate happened in other sports it would not be allowed. Of course there are leisure horses dying every day too but it just dosnt sit right that some horses literally give their all for us humans and it is just accepted.


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## splashgirl45 (3 March 2021)

heart attacks happen in leisure horses but there are many more racehorses than leisure horses.  i have been around horses for over 50 years but wouldnt have been in contact with thousands of horses. in the small number of horses i know of personally through friends, there have been 4 who had heart attacks.  all were in regular work either hacking or low level/riding club competing with no known problems , one had just got back from a quiet hack and collapsed, one was the lead horse for the riding school and was on a walk/trot hack, one was mid canter across the field and another was found dead in his field.  these were all at different yards so no link apart from the fact that the owners were friends of mine....then there are the broken legs from playing in the field so these things happen in leisure horses but the general public dont know about these..  GE has done a lot of harm to the racing industry


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## reynold (3 March 2021)

Whatever the motive for publishing the picture and video were the result is that there is intense public scrutiny of racing for the immediate future which means that Cheltenham is going to be watched, closely.

ITV will be showing 6 races per day on their main channel.

Racing does not need images of exhausted horses being continued with or crawling over the last 2 fences. Nor does it need the images of hurdlers falling at speed due to bunching and excessive speed, particularly at the start of races with large fields.

Trainers at this moment for the good of the sport should be considering whether some of their horses are REALLY good enough to be running at Cheltenham and if not, should be withdrawing them to fight another day, perhaps at a lower grade track. I know dreams are made at Cheltenham but also potential disaster looms.

Similarly jockeys should really make sure that they pull up as soon as possible and not be seen 20 lengths behind on a horse with no chance continuing until it's exhausted.

If owners truely love the sport they are involved with then they should understand that this is not the moment to 'take a chance' as public image is important.

I speak as someone who spent a decade working for a NH permit holder with lower grade horses running at Fontwell, Folkestone and Plumpton. We did have a dream one year and had a runner in the Whitbread but in hindsight we should really have left him in his own grade. The same applies to some of the runners due to compete at the festival.

Look after the sport by being realistic.

Personally I hope that GE gets a 10 year ban, but as Elf stated it is more likely to be a fine.


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## Tiddlypom (3 March 2021)

Are jockeys still expected to ride out to the finish even when their  horse has no chance and has maybe tired? I hate seeing exhausted horses being made to run on when their chance is gone.

*I’m clearly no racing expert, but I do watch the big meetings*


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## ycbm (3 March 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			heart attacks happen in leisure horses but there are many more racehorses than leisure horses.
		
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Did you miss an "in" out of that sentence SG? More heart attacks in race horses?   Because I don't think it can be true that there are many more racehorses than leisure horses?  

I've seen two heart attack fatalities out hunting,  possibly 3 but one was imo avoidable. I had a 6 year old of my own drop dead out on a hack from a ruptured aorta. It happens, unfortunately.


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## bonny (3 March 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Are jockeys still expected to ride out to the finish even when their  horse has no chance and has maybe tired? I hate seeing exhausted horses being made to run on when their chance is gone.

*I’m clearly no racing expert, but I do watch the big meetings*
		
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No, they have to pull the horse up if it’s got no chance and is getting tired, lots of horses don’t finish the race and jockeys don’t want to fall at the end of the race if they are out of contention.


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## Elf On A Shelf (3 March 2021)

Mule said:



			Do you mean that their hearts are too big for their bodies? Or that their bodies are too big for their hearts?
		
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Hearts too big for their bodies. Thoroughbreds have huge hearts because the work they do increases the muscle volume a great deal. The bigger the heart the greater risk of it going wrong. Take Big River for example - his heart is larger than your average TB's and so it flips into Atrial Fibrillation on occassion - it has done this 3x when racing. Twice it has reset itself with 24 hours, once we was dosed with Quinine but the process had to stop as his body couldn't cope with it so he was electric shocked back into rhythm a few weeks later. Tb's hearts work very, very hard. They are pumping so much blood round the body every single second and obviously even more so when working hard. Same for any animal really though many are not asked to work as hard nor as fast as a racehorse. Studies have shown the bigger the heart the better the racehose. One For Arthur's heart is bigger than Big River's.

So yes heart attacks are more prevalent in racehorses because of how they are bred and how they are trained. 

As to horses running til they are exhausted - yes under idiot jockeys who don't know when to quit. BUT this will not be happening at Cheltenham. I can see all the lads being given strict instructions by the stewards to pull up the moment they know they have no hope. Racing quite simply can not afford for anything to go wrong right now. Jockeys can be banned and fined for failing to pull up a tired horse and I expect the Cheltenham stewards will use this to full effect for the meeting. 

I also expect there will be fewer runners at Cheltenham because owners can't go. Yes everyone wants a runner at Cheltenham but they would rather be there to see it run than watch it on a tv screen. A lot of horses go just because they can to give the owners a day out. No day out, no point in wasting a run when the horse could win elsewhere the following week.


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## palo1 (3 March 2021)

Kamikaze said:



			I just hate the sort of acceptance that horses dropping dead when their heart gives out, be that in training or a race, is ok and “it just happens”. I do understand the huge numbers of horses in training makes it more common but if the same rate happened in other sports it would not be allowed. Of course there are leisure horses dying every day too but it just dosnt sit right that some horses literally give their all for us humans and it is just accepted.
		
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Sadly though in any situation where we keep animals that is inevitably what happens; domestic animals don't have choices really (or very few) and farm animals are literally produced to give their all.


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## doodle (3 March 2021)

palo1 said:



			and farm animals are literally produced to give their all.
		
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I agree and that’s why I don’t eat them (but don’t want to get in to the whole veggie argument)


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## palo1 (3 March 2021)

Kamikaze said:



			I agree and that’s why I don’t eat them (but don’t want to get in to the whole veggie argument)
		
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Yes, I wasn't trying to derail the thread lol but I do think that it is difficult sometimes for us (collective us!) to remember that any domestic animal gives their all through no real choice, even where there are very strong bonds of empathy and partnership there.  I think that is certainly one reason why any animal which has died in a situation related to human activity should be treated with respect.


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## Quigleyandme (3 March 2021)

An Irish owner with horses at Elliott’s yard and another trainer have appealed to the public to back off Elliott now before he is completely destroyed mentally and harms himself. He has been “stripped bare and publicly flogged”, his reputation and business irreparably damaged and enough is enough. Both men comment on the first class facilities at his yard but seem to miss the point that 5* facilities to woo owners do not necessarily equate to 5* care beyond the care afforded a valuable unit of production as directed by the man in charge. Although I’m sure the vast majority of staff have a genuine and deep-seated love and respect for their charges how much autonomy do they have in a huge yard like this? I really don’t know as I have no experience whatsoever but I bet they are kept really busy. Oh and you Brits have issued the ban because you are sick of Irish trained horses winning everything and you are generally anti-Irish as evidenced by Pontins. That contribution is from some rando on talk back radio.


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## bonny (3 March 2021)

Quigleyandme said:



			An Irish owner with horses at Elliott’s yard and another trainer have appealed to the public to back off Elliott now before he is completely destroyed mentally and harms himself. He has been “stripped bare and publicly flogged”, his reputation and business irreparably damaged and enough is enough. Both men comment on the first class facilities at his yard but seem to miss the point that 5* facilities to woo owners do not necessarily equate to 5* care beyond the care afforded a valuable unit of production as directed by the man in charge. Although I’m sure the vast majority of staff have a genuine and deep-seated love and respect for their charges how much autonomy do they have in a huge yard like this? I really don’t know as I have no experience whatsoever but I bet they are kept really busy. Oh and you Brits have issued the ban because you are sick of Irish trained horses winning everything and you are generally anti-Irish as evidenced by Pontins. That contribution is from some rando on talk back radio.
		
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Plenty of truth in all that


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## Elf On A Shelf (3 March 2021)

bonny said:



			Plenty of truth in all that
		
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I agree. But I would hate to see the Irish banned from Cheltenham - all Irish not just certain ones. 

It has been an interesting season over here without the Irish to contend with. Obviously we have won all the big races but without them to challenge us and us them do we all honestly know the quality of everyone's horses? Cheltenham will be interesting for sure when they do all clash! It may even be the most interesting Fesstival for a good few years!


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## Cortez (3 March 2021)

Quigleyandme said:



			An Irish owner with horses at Elliott’s yard and another trainer have appealed to the public to back off Elliott now before he is completely destroyed mentally and harms himself. He has been “stripped bare and publicly flogged”, his reputation and business irreparably damaged and enough is enough. Both men comment on the first class facilities at his yard but seem to miss the point that 5* facilities to woo owners do not necessarily equate to 5* care beyond the care afforded a valuable unit of production as directed by the man in charge. Although I’m sure the vast majority of staff have a genuine and deep-seated love and respect for their charges how much autonomy do they have in a huge yard like this? I really don’t know as I have no experience whatsoever but I bet they are kept really busy.
		
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I feel that things are a bit blurred: the stupid thing he got caught doing does not equal cruelty. It is much more than likely that the staff at the yard take very good care of the horses (I doubt that they would win as regularly as they do if they were badly treated). I know people who have had horses at this yard and they had no complaints at the time. The baying social media mob aspect is to be expected I suppose, as ever it's not an edifying sight.


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## Clodagh (3 March 2021)

I think the BHA said today they hope he can run at Cheltenham. It will be a hollow victory for the Brits if the best aren’t there.


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## Wishfilly (3 March 2021)

Orangehorse said:



			So what does everyone want to happen? Drive him out of business, his staff to lose their jobs? Worse?

There should be sanctions, and no doubt the Irish Racing Board will impose a suitable punishment.
		
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There's a shortage of good staff in racing AFIAK. Good staff will find jobs elsewhere. I won't be heartbroken if Gordon Elliot was out of a job after all this, no. I would hope more owners will vote with their feet and move their horses elsewhere.

Do you think owners should be forced to keep their horses with him?


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## bonny (3 March 2021)

Wishfilly said:



			There's a shortage of good staff in racing AFIAK. Good staff will find jobs elsewhere. I won't be heartbroken if Gordon Elliot was out of a job after all this, no. I would hope more owners will vote with their feet and move their horses elsewhere.

Do you think owners should be forced to keep their horses with him?
		
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How can anyone be forced to have horses with him ?


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## Wishfilly (3 March 2021)

Archangel said:



			I would like to know too.  Is it a thing that fit, young, horses, just drop dead at home on the gallops?
		
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Yes. Also young, apparently healthy youngsters dying in the field. And healthy horses being sent to slaughter because they haven't made the grade. 

This isn't the only reality for racehorses, but there is, IME a dark side to the sport.


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## Wishfilly (3 March 2021)

bonny said:



			How can anyone be forced to have horses with him ?
		
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Well that's what I mean- people are saying the staff shouldn't lose their jobs, and I have huge sympathy for his staff, but also if owners leave that's what will inevitably happen. And owners obviously should be allowed to leave.


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## MissMay (3 March 2021)

The entire thing sits funny with me.

AFAIK at no point has there ever been a suggestion of GE cruelty or mistreatment so whilst what he did was distasteful and disrespectful he was not cruel, the horse had no awareness.

So whilst of course there should be a consequence to actions, claiming to want life time ban, loose his business etc etc is all a bit much he is being tried by social media which is wrong. He made a bad decision which will impact his career forever but people have done much much much worse and got away with a lighter sentence he is unlucky in 2 aspects 
1- timing, when the focus was already on racing 
2- the social aspect of it is bringing people who are already against the racing industry to want him thing drawn and quartered.


whilst i will never ever support his choice he does not deserve this level of public hate wanting him to loose everything and become destroyed. Every one has made a decision you regret 99% of us are lucky those decisions dont get used to destroy our entire professional and personal lives


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## Velcrobum (3 March 2021)

Hi Elf I know Irish horses have not been racing here and vice versa why is there an exception for Cheltenham and Aintree???


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## bonny (3 March 2021)

Velcrobum said:



			Hi Elf I know Irish horses have not been racing here and vice versa why is there an exception for Cheltenham and Aintree???
		
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They have been racing here


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## Clodagh (3 March 2021)

It is just more expensive and harder to bring them over, and staff with them have to isolate on return.


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## Flame_ (3 March 2021)

Regarding the appropriate punishment for damage to the overall reputation of racing, I hope that the establishment are gunning as hard for whoever leaked the photo. Given the timing and everything it's clearly a personal vendetta/ revenge thing.

Yes perhaps, there should be consequences for GE (though I personally consider all this hoo-hah punishment enough for getting caught doing a stupid, crass thing), but whoever has put out that photo has an equal hand in the damage to racing's reputation and they've chosen to do it for a personal agenda, they haven't just acted like a prick in front of their mates.

ETA Even if they aren't punishable in racing conduct terms, they're going to face some serious comeuppance one way or another, I'd say.


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## Elf On A Shelf (3 March 2021)

Velcrobum said:



			Hi Elf I know Irish horses have not been racing here and vice versa why is there an exception for Cheltenham and Aintree???
		
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They have been at times. At the start of lockdown last year they and we weren't allowed to travel. When we could it was too expensive and time consuming for the 2 week quarantine periods either end to make it viable. Now the quarantine periods are shorter there are now extra fees courtesy of Brexit. So it is not financially viable for them to come over as and when they pleased like they used to. So most have saved their horses in Ireland for the Festivals when they are coming over for 10-12 days regardless in one fell swoop. 

There have still been Irish horses racing over here and we have sent the odd one over there but it's not been in the same quantities which has in turn kept the big playing horses at home more this season. Hence the big Irish and British horses haven't really met at all this season.


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## Tiddlypom (3 March 2021)

Flame_ said:



			Regarding the appropriate punishment for damage to the overall reputation of racing, I hope that the authorities are gunning as hard for whoever leaked the photo. Given the timing and everything it's clearly a personal vendetta/ revenge thing.
		
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Gunning for them? And what do you think should happen to them when they are found?


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## Flame_ (3 March 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Gunning for them? And what do you think should happen to them when they are found?
		
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I bet someone can and will come up with something worse than anything I can.


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## Mule (3 March 2021)

That's very interesting, I had no idea


Elf On A Shelf said:



			Hearts too big for their bodies. Thoroughbreds have huge hearts because the work they do increases the muscle volume a great deal. The bigger the heart the greater risk of it going wrong. Take Big River for example - his heart is larger than your average TB's and so it flips into Atrial Fibrillation on occassion - it has done this 3x when racing. Twice it has reset itself with 24 hours, once we was dosed with Quinine but the process had to stop as his body couldn't cope with it so he was electric shocked back into rhythm a few weeks later. Tb's hearts work very, very hard. They are pumping so much blood round the body every single second and obviously even more so when working hard. Same for any animal really though many are not asked to work as hard nor as fast as a racehorse. Studies have shown the bigger the heart the better the racehose. One For Arthur's heart is bigger than Big River's.

So yes heart attacks are more prevalent in racehorses because of how they are bred and how they are trained.

As to horses running til they are exhausted - yes under idiot jockeys who don't know when to quit. BUT this will not be happening at Cheltenham. I can see all the lads being given strict instructions by the stewards to pull up the moment they know they have no hope. Racing quite simply can not afford for anything to go wrong right now. Jockeys can be banned and fined for failing to pull up a tired horse and I expect the Cheltenham stewards will use this to full effect for the meeting.

I also expect there will be fewer runners at Cheltenham because owners can't go. Yes everyone wants a runner at Cheltenham but they would rather be there to see it run than watch it on a tv screen. A lot of horses go just because they can to give the owners a day out. No day out, no point in wasting a run when the horse could win elsewhere the following week.
		
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## Clodagh (3 March 2021)

Flame_ said:



			Regarding the appropriate punishment for damage to the overall reputation of racing, I hope that the establishment are gunning as hard for whoever leaked the photo. Given the timing and everything it's clearly a personal vendetta/ revenge thing.

Yes perhaps, there should be consequences for GE (though I personally consider all this hoo-hah punishment enough for getting caught doing a stupid, crass thing), but whoever has put out that photo has an equal hand in the damage to racing's reputation and they've chosen to do it for a personal agenda, they haven't just acted like a prick in front of their mates.

ETA Even if they aren't punishable in racing conduct terms, they're going to face some serious comeuppance one way or another, I'd say.
		
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If how he treats women is as rumoured then I expect it was one of them. I dislike him more for being a misogynist than an unfeeling git!


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## Flame_ (3 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			If how he treats women is as rumoured then I expect it was one of them. I dislike him more for being a misogynist than an unfeeling git!
		
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I'm no fan of misogyny, and I have deep sympathy for poorly treated women, but the consequences of choosing to go for GE in this way are huge, not just for him but for his staff, his owners, and the racing industry as a whole.

Whoever it was is going to be watching their back forever, and rightly so IMO, doing this amount of damage would be a disproportionate punishment for GE allegedly being a chauvinist and/or bad boyfriend.


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## Wishfilly (3 March 2021)

MissMay said:



			The entire thing sits funny with me.

AFAIK at no point has there ever been a suggestion of GE cruelty or mistreatment so whilst what he did was distasteful and disrespectful he was not cruel, the horse had no awareness.

So whilst of course there should be a consequence to actions, claiming to want life time ban, loose his business etc etc is all a bit much he is being tried by social media which is wrong. He made a bad decision which will impact his career forever but people have done much much much worse and got away with a lighter sentence he is unlucky in 2 aspects
1- timing, when the focus was already on racing
2- the social aspect of it is bringing people who are already against the racing industry to want him thing drawn and quartered.


whilst i will never ever support his choice he does not deserve this level of public hate wanting him to loose everything and become destroyed. Every one has made a decision you regret 99% of us are lucky those decisions dont get used to destroy our entire professional and personal lives
		
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I think the fact that another video has come out involving someone involved in the same set up suggests a culture where the horses are not respected as they should be. I think if you can be that disrespectful in death, you probably don't have the horse's welfare at heart during your life. 

There are some people in racing/thoroughbreds who have a callous attitude towards horses- that is a fact. There are lots and lots of people who don't, who love their horses, ensure they have the best of care and care about what happens to them when the leave the industry. As someone who wants racing to continue long term as a sport, I think if those with the most callous attitudes were forced out, the sport would be improved as a whole, gain a better public perception and have a more secure future. 

Do you think owners should be forced to keep their horses with him? If you had horses in training, would you send them to Gordon Elliot now? If you were a sponsor, would you want to associate your brand with him right now?


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## bonny (3 March 2021)

Wishfilly said:



			I think the fact that another video has come out involving someone involved in the same set up suggests a culture where the horses are not respected as they should be. I think if you can be that disrespectful in death, you probably don't have the horse's welfare at heart during your life. 

There are some people in racing/thoroughbreds who have a callous attitude towards horses- that is a fact. There are lots and lots of people who don't, who love their horses, ensure they have the best of care and care about what happens to them when the leave the industry. As someone who wants racing to continue long term as a sport, I think if those with the most callous attitudes were forced out, the sport would be improved as a whole, gain a better public perception and have a more secure future. 

Do you think owners should be forced to keep their horses with him? If you had horses in training, would you send them to Gordon Elliot now? If you were a sponsor, would you want to associate your brand with him right now?
		
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You are ignoring the fact that he’s had a huge amount of success and grown a hugely successful business from nothing ...do you really believe you can see something that people paying enormous amounts of money for him to train their horses couldn’t ?


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## Gingerwitch (3 March 2021)

Boo hooo mr Elliott is not such the big man now is he ? His poor little friends saying he has had enough. Well did anyone listen to the two dead horses whom I am sure were trying to tell the riders that they had had enough. Did they get a smack on the arse and shouted at, until they dropped dead.
Heart attacks happen but when I have seen this first hand the rider has placed a coat over the horse. I have had to have a horse winched out of a stable late at night. The knackerman asked me to be removed before they started and apologised to everyone before he did what needed to be done.  And he had never even met my big lad.


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## Wishfilly (3 March 2021)

bonny said:



			You are ignoring the fact that he’s had a huge amount of success and grown a hugely successful business from nothing ...do you really believe you can see something that people paying enormous amounts of money for him to train their horses couldn’t ?
		
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I think he's very successful. I don't think that necessarily correlates with having the horse's welfare at the forefront at all times. I also think there are owners who won't care about that. 

I also doubt he sat on dead horses in front of owners.


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## Tiddlypom (3 March 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			Well did anyone listen to the two dead horses whom I am sure were trying to tell the riders that they had had enough. Did they get a smack on the arse and shouted at, until they dropped dead.
		
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Now you are getting carried away again just like you did on the thread that was taken down. Do not invent stuff to fit your narrative.

Horses can and do drop dead without warning.


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## Amymay (3 March 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			Boo hooo mr Elliott is not such the big man now is he ? His poor little friends saying he has had enough. Well did anyone listen to the two dead horses whom I am sure were trying to tell the riders that they had had enough. Did they get a smack on the arse and shouted at, until they dropped dead.
Heart attacks happen but when I have seen this first hand the rider has placed a coat over the horse. I have had to have a horse winched out of a stable late at night. The knackerman asked me to be removed before they started and apologised to everyone before he did what needed to be done.  And he had never even met my big lad.
		
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Eh? 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## Gingerwitch (3 March 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Now you are getting carried away again just like you did on the thread that was taken down. Do not invent stuff to fit your narrative.

Horses can and do drop dead without warning.
		
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Get stuffed tiddlypom !


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## Gingerwitch (3 March 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Now you are getting carried away again just like you did on the thread that was taken down. Do not invent stuff to fit your narrative.

Horses can and do drop dead without warning.
		
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And I said that if you can be bothered to read it properly  !


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## druid (3 March 2021)

The person who had the photo for 18 months and didn't got to IHRB is quite likely to get pulled in front of the hearing too going on several accounts over here. It's been widely touted on social media who released the photo and there is another video of inappropriate/cruel behaviour of a horse, allegedly which she threatened to release. The existence of which makes the whole thing of a moment of madness harder to swallow.


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## Elf On A Shelf (3 March 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			Boo hooo mr Elliott is not such the big man now is he ? His poor little friends saying he has had enough. Well did anyone listen to the two dead horses whom I am sure were trying to tell the riders that they had had enough. Did they get a smack on the arse and shouted at, until they dropped dead.
Heart attacks happen but when I have seen this first hand the rider has placed a coat over the horse. I have had to have a horse winched out of a stable late at night. The knackerman asked me to be removed before they started and apologised to everyone before he did what needed to be done.  And he had never even met my big lad.
		
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I don't know if you have ever read some of my A Day In The Life Of A Work Rider threads but this one seems a little apt:

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/the-highs-and-lows-of-being-a-work-rider.756568/


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## Mrs. Jingle (3 March 2021)

Interesting update to the latest internet goss druid.  But I have to say I am not at all surprised, never mind the total disrespect and oafish, juvenile behavior regarding the poor dead horse, to me it isn't so much what he did as more concern regarding what happens when nobody with a phone camera is around, or has been told in no uncertain terms to turn their phone camera off!


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## Tiddlypom (3 March 2021)

I don’t think that the identity of the dead GE horse has been mentioned before, apologies if it has. So he was an established horse with wins, who belonged to his main owner. ETA Morgan had won over £60k in prize money.

_The dead horse at the centre of the Gordon Elliott photograph controversy was the Michael O’Leary-owned Morgan._

_Winner of four of his 21 starts the seven-year-old gelding died of an aneurysm on Elliott’s gallops in 2019._


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## Lady2021 (3 March 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			Boo hooo mr Elliott is not such the big man now is he ? His poor little friends saying he has had enough. Well did anyone listen to the two dead horses whom I am sure were trying to tell the riders that they had had enough. Did they get a smack on the arse and shouted at, until they dropped dead.
Heart attacks happen but when I have seen this first hand the rider has placed a coat over the horse. I have had to have a horse winched out of a stable late at night. The knackerman asked me to be removed before they started and apologised to everyone before he did what needed to be done.  And he had never even met my big lad.
		
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Seriously you’re accusing someone of abuse when you have no evidence . This has really turned into a witch hunt and plus the horse died of aneurysm. Which can happen to any horse at any time. My friend horse dropped dead in his stable he was 2 years old.


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## Gingerwitch (3 March 2021)

Lady2021 said:



			Seriously you’re accusing someone of abuse when you have no evidence . This has really turned into a witch hunt and plus the horse died of aneurysm. Which can happen to any horse at any time.
		
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Stop twisting my post ! I was saying that mr Elliott is having people step in to say enough. Trainers and riders are the only ones that can see and hear what is going on with there horses. If you can be bothered to actually read my post and not humor to conclusions you will see the bit where I state. Hirses di have heart attacks, but the ones I gave have seen first hand the rider has placed a coat over there head. Sirrybid I have to spell out that this meant that rider had respect for the decreased animal. Not like Mr Elliott and his jockey that chose to use one as a chair and one as a climbing frame to jump on. I doubt need to make it up, the evidence is starting us all in our faces and is on multi media platforms.
Why are you not jumping on the other posters that are slkegingbothet unsavory evidence done to live animals.?


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## AdorableAlice (3 March 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			Boo hooo mr Elliott is not such the big man now is he ? His poor little friends saying he has had enough. Well did anyone listen to the two dead horses whom I am sure were trying to tell the riders that they had had enough. Did they get a smack on the arse and shouted at, until they dropped dead.
		
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  The thread has discussed in a sensible and balanced way the darkest day racing has faced.  Juvenile and uneducated comments as above really are crass and take the poster to the level of the poor decision making shown by Mr Elliott.


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## Lady2021 (3 March 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			Stop twisting my post ! I was saying that mr Elliott is having people step in to say enough. Trainers and riders are the only ones that can see and hear what is going on with there horses. If you can be bothered to actually read my post and not humor to conclusions you will see the bit where I state. Hirses di have heart attacks, but the ones I gave have seen first hand the rider has placed a coat over there head. Sirrybid I have to spell out that this meant that rider had respect for the decreased animal. Not like Mr Elliott and his jockey that chose to use one as a chair and one as a climbing frame to jump on. I doubt need to make it up, the evidence is starting us all in our faces and is on multi media platforms.
Why are you not jumping on the other posters that are slkegingbothet unsavory evidence done to live animals.?
		
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You where accusing him of abuse when you don’t even now the yard . Plus your no better than him making juvenile and uneducated comments  this is a serious racing issue .


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## MissMay (3 March 2021)

But it is enough, people have to stop thinking because it's the internet we can say and speculate as we please forgetting conveniently that people are impacted

Suicides are caused by less.

until there is proof other than "he said she said" all we can see is a person who made an absolutely stupid decision paying the price. 

So while absolutely it is wrong and he will forever pay the price business wise- he is also going in front of the professional board and will have to face his peers at some point in shame.

he does not need to be made a public scapegoat for every single issue within an industry. it is not his specific fault jockey dont pull up tiered horses. it is not his specific fault racehorses have heart attacks. 

So whilst I wouldn't be kicking his door in to keep my own horses there right now- the bigger picture needs to be looked at forever more his yard, his staff , his horses will be scrutinised waiting for any issue to arise. 
Do i think he deserves to be punished for things he has never been connected with?! absolutely not.
Do I think he should loose absolutely everything he has ever worked for because he did something disrespectful and distasteful? No

Do I think he should be punished CORRECTLY by the authorities, absolutely


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## NinjaPony (3 March 2021)

Agreeing to ignore the posts that are trying to derail the thread.....

My opinion of Michael O’Leary continues to plumb new depths. That horse was successful, won him good money and yet he’s fine with how it was treated when the poor thing dropped dead?

Moving beyond speculation of cruelty, to treat a dead animal like that is actually very disturbing and really not normal at all. The attitude behind that kind of posing for a picture is alarming psychologically to say the least.


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## Wishfilly (3 March 2021)

I agree that he shouldn't be made a scapegoat for every issue in racing. On the other hand, I think some people (not necessarily on this thread) would also like to silence discussion around wider issues in racing/TB breeding which I think it would be good for people to discuss. 

Owners and sponsors have every right to remove their horses and I don't see how the jobs of stable staff can be protected unless people are saying this should somehow be prevented? I feel sorry for the stable staff, but I do truly believe good staff will manage to find jobs elsewhere. I understand the uncertainty of that will be difficult for them, and they don't deserve to be punished for this. But I think it's sadly inevitable.


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## bonny (3 March 2021)

NinjaPony said:



			Agreeing to ignore the posts that are trying to derail the thread.....

My opinion of Michael O’Leary continues to plumb new depths. That horse was successful, won him good money and yet he’s fine with how it was treated when the poor thing dropped dead?

Moving beyond speculation of cruelty, to treat a dead animal like that is actually very disturbing and really not normal at all. The attitude behind that kind of posing for a picture is alarming psychologically to say the least.
		
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How on earth do you know what he thinks beyond his statement issued to the press ? The horse died two years ago, you have no idea what he thought at the time or even now. He has far too many horses there to simply remove them all, maybe he’s waiting until after Friday, maybe he’s making other decisions, we simply don’t know and nor is any of our business. All this speculation about people that none of us know is just weird and very unhelpful.


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## shortstuff99 (3 March 2021)

I mean to be fair, most humans hate working for O' Leary.......


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## dogatemysalad (3 March 2021)

I always feel uncomfortable when people on social media start going for the jugular. Witch hunts never make good reading.


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## Ceriann (3 March 2021)

For the general public, horse racing walks a tight rope where horses and riders put themselves at risk of injury or death to entertain.  Injury and death often played out publicly.  The conflict is rationalised to a great extent by a belief that injury or death is deeply felt by the industry insiders - owners, trainers, jockeys and yard staff.  They do this for the love of the animal right - this majestic creature that gives its all for us, demanding nothing in return. What GE did exposes very clearly to the public that this is not the case - this is a business and the horses are an expendable commodity.  The conflict becomes too real, the injury and deaths can’t be rationalised. Its incredibly damaging for the industry full of people who do care and can show how they care - but a picture is worth a thousand words.


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## NinjaPony (3 March 2021)

bonny said:



			How on earth do you know what he thinks beyond his statement issued to the press ? The horse died two years ago, you have no idea what he thought at the time or even now. He has far too many horses there to simply remove them all, maybe he’s waiting until after Friday, maybe he’s making other decisions, we simply don’t know and nor is any of our business. All this speculation about people that none of us know is just weird and very unhelpful.
		
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I don’t know what he thinks privately. I’m basing my judgement off the public statement he has issued, and actions he has taken. Which I think is reasonable, as that’s presumably the whole point of giving the statement. All I know, is that if one of my horses was treated like that by the trainer, I wouldn’t be standing by them. And so, my opinion of him, which was already pretty low, again based on public actions and statements, continues to sink lower.

I’ve always been fairly ambivalent about racing, but there’s no doubt this nasty episode will haunt the sport for a time to come, and it validates what a lot of the public already thought.


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## bonny (3 March 2021)

NinjaPony said:



			I don’t know what he thinks privately. I’m basing my judgement off the public statement he has issued, and actions he has taken. Which I think is reasonable, as that’s presumably the whole point of giving the statement. All I know, is that if one of my horses was treated like that by the trainer, I wouldn’t be standing by them. And so, my opinion of him, which was already pretty low, again based on public actions and statements, continues to sink lower.

I’ve always been fairly ambivalent about racing, but there’s no doubt this nasty episode will haunt the sport for a time to come, and it validates what a lot of the public already thought.
		
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Maybe the difference is that they actually know each other whereas you are basing your opinion on one press release. Most of the public won’t have even heard of Gordon Elliot let alone given him any thought and we won’t know the official outcome till Friday so all this speculation is just that.


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## tristar (4 March 2021)

dogatemysalad said:



			I always feel uncomfortable when people on social media start going for the jugular. Witch hunts never make good reading.
		
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you are so right, but over and over again in the horse world the use of horses in extreme sport throws up unsolvable moral dilemmas


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## tristar (4 March 2021)

Ceriann said:



			For the general public, horse racing walks a tight rope where horses and riders put themselves at risk of injury or death to entertain.  Injury and death often played out publicly.  The conflict is rationalised to a great extent by a belief that injury or death is deeply felt by the industry insiders - owners, trainers, jockeys and yard staff.  They do this for the love of the animal right - this majestic creature that gives its all for us, demanding nothing in return. What GE did exposes very clearly to the public that this is not the case - this is a business and the horses are an expendable commodity.  The conflict becomes too real, the injury and deaths can’t be rationalised. Its incredibly damaging for the industry full of people who do care and can show how they care - but a picture is worth a thousand words.
		
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this is how i see a lot of horse sport, but racing has its own dirty linen, the observer investigation showed up that thousands of tb are are slaughtered every year simply because they don`t make the grade.

they are a commercial commodity in the main  like it or not,, i find it harder and harder to watch jump racing, being so acutely aware of ground conditions, the inexperience of some of the jockeys, the pressure to get out of the horse whatever they can, its no picnic sometimes, the sheer weight of a horse when it falls at top speed and the unavoidable injury to such a delicately constructed frame

recently i have detected a sensitivity from commentators inc ex jockeys, a sort of uncomfortable -ness when there is an accident as if they are increasingly aware of when it goes right its great, but when it does`nt its very upsetting for all concerned especially the viewing public, and how can you justify it, i feel exactly the same


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## Pearlsasinger (4 March 2021)

NinjaPony said:



			I don’t know what he thinks privately. I’m basing my judgement off the public statement he has issued, and actions he has taken. Which I think is reasonable, as that’s presumably the whole point of giving the statement. All I know, is that if one of my horses was treated like that by the trainer, I wouldn’t be standing by them. And so, my opinion of him, which was already pretty low, again based on public actions and statements, continues to sink lower.

I’ve always been fairly ambivalent about racing, but there’s no doubt this nasty episode will haunt the sport for a time to come, and it validates what a lot of the public already thought.
		
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I think this is exactly what everyone should do.  I really wish people would not post speculating what figures in the public eye, for any reason, would do in various circumstances, when they/we can't possibly know.  Quite apart from anything else it weakens the argument for anyone to respect that poster's judgement.  There is an awful lot of it going on on the H& thread, too.


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## sportsmansB (4 March 2021)

He was really stupid 
He knows the public perception of racing is through the floor and he should be mindful of that 
He should also be mindful that most people who love and work with horses like them too much to treat a body like that, even if it is just a carcass. It is disrespectful to the horse, and would be to the owner if the owner wasn't O'Leary who probably doesn't give a toot  

I didn't like seeing the photo (never like seeing deceased horses tbh) but I would be much, much more upset to see evidence of him mistreating a live horse. He personally didn't actually cause this one harm (outside of the whole whether racing is right or wrong debate) and continuing the witch hunt only damages horse sport even more. A hefty fine, a short but painful ban (missing cheltenham for eg) and lets move on and try and rebuild some respect for horse sport in general. The longer this drags on the worse it is.


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## tristar (4 March 2021)

sportsmansB said:



			He was really stupid 
He knows the public perception of racing is through the floor and he should be mindful of that 
He should also be mindful that most people who love and work with horses like them too much to treat a body like that, even if it is just a carcass. It is disrespectful to the horse, and would be to the owner if the owner wasn't O'Leary who probably doesn't give a toot  

I didn't like seeing the photo (never like seeing deceased horses tbh) but I would be much, much more upset to see evidence of him mistreating a live horse. He personally didn't actually cause this one harm (outside of the whole whether racing is right or wrong debate) and continuing the witch hunt only damages horse sport even more. A hefty fine, a short but painful ban (missing cheltenham for eg) and lets move on and try and rebuild some respect for horse sport in general. The longer this drags on the worse it is.
		
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do you think it maybe a catalyst that brings about changes though, ? or lets move on, but it all gets a little swept under the carpet sort of a thing?


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## meleeka (4 March 2021)

tristar said:



			do you think it maybe a catalyst that brings about changes though, ? or lets move on, but it all gets a little swept under the carpet sort of a thing?
		
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What changes would you expect?  I imagine people that deal with dead bodies would already be making sure they didn’t let a camera anywhere near and were sensitive in their handling.  I don’t think that photo has made racing anymore controversial than it was before.  I’m not comfortable with the continued witch hunt either.  I think he should be punished, of course, but to go from that photo to accusing him of being cruel to the horses in his care is a big jump.   People aren’t going to change their views on racing, you either accept its a downside that horses die, or you don’t.


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## Wishfilly (4 March 2021)

meleeka said:



			What changes would you expect?  I imagine people that deal with dead bodies would already be making sure they didn’t let a camera anywhere near and were sensitive in their handling.  I don’t think that photo has made racing anymore controversial than it was before.  I’m not comfortable with the continued witch hunt either.  I think he should be punished, of course, but to go from that photo to accusing him of being cruel to the horses in his care is a big jump.   People aren’t going to change their views on racing, you either accept its a downside that horses die, or you don’t.
		
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It's not just that photo- it's the fact that another video showing similar has come out showing someone also involved in his set up. I think this suggests a culture towards the horses that makes me feel uncomfortable. 

I also think it's made people aware of the fact that horses do die during training, which I think is something some people weren't aware of/didn't consider.


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## Fellewell (4 March 2021)

meleeka said:



			Our local fallen stock man obviously needs to deal with bodies on a daily basis.  He’s respectful of every animal.  Showing something respect isn’t the same as caring for it in order for it to perform to its best.
		
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And it's the caring for them while they're alive that counts.
The standards at Mr Elliott's yard have never been in question. Owners have described conditions there as top class and his results speak for themselves. Horses, as we know, can be surprisingly uncooperative if they're not happy and settled.
He has lost some top horses now, this will be hurting him, unsettling these horses, and affecting their chances of success. This alone would be punishment enough for any trainer.
There will always be someone with an agenda, just waiting for a photo opportunity to destroy someone. They have released this at a crucial time in the knowledge that social media would do the rest for them.
We should leave it to the authorities now and hope that the penalty is in proportion to the alleged offence.


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## Tiddlypom (4 March 2021)

meleeka said:



			People aren’t going to change their views on racing, you either accept its a downside that horses die, or you don’t.
		
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Hmm, I think it will change some people’s views. Seeing horses die on the course is bad enough, but becoming aware that they can also die in training is another.

I’m ambivalent about racing. I love seeing finely tuned equine athletes at the top of their game, but I hate the deaths and seeing exhausted horses stumbling on.

I also like to think that they are treated like kings when in training. That photo has certainly made me revise my view.


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## Ellibelli (4 March 2021)

People aren’t going to change their views on racing said:
			
		


			I'm not sure about this. I used to love watching NH racing but I can't nowadays as the falls make me cringe. I do believe it's only a matter of time before racing, especially NH, is banned and in 50 years time people will look back in horror at the practice of sending 40 horses around a course of massive fences, knowing at least one of them will probably die, just for entertainment purposes. Unfortunately I think the recent photo's and videos will bring that ban forward - and then eventing will probably be next.......
		
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## Rowreach (4 March 2021)

tristar said:



			you are so right, but over and over again in the horse world the use of horses in extreme sport throws up unsolvable moral dilemmas
		
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Actually it's not just "extreme" horse sport, in fact most of those horses are far better off than the ones I see owned by the average horse owner who may have extremely limited knowledge (and funds).  I mean, if we're getting into what is morally justifiable to do to a horse, then riding it at all is arguably not in it's best interests.


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## Mrs. Jingle (4 March 2021)

Very off topic but a little light hearted observation seeing Michael O'Leary's name mentioned. Back in the day I went to a very well known dealer's yard over here in Ireland, to try a horse they had for sale.

After trying it I decided not to buy for reasons I won't go into on here. The dealer tried to change my mind with these words that he obviously thought would seal the deal. But you must want it...... do you know that Michael O'leary owned it.....this is some horse???? He was absolutely incredulous when I said I don't care who owns it I am not buying it lol!

Sorry off topic but I often chuckle when I remember that day and still wonder did someone eventually buy it purely because Michael O'Leary owned it!


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## cobgoblin (4 March 2021)

I'd never heard of Gordon Elliott as I don't follow racing particularly. But I saw the photo and thought what an ignorant oik! 

Rather than damaging racing as a whole, I think he's just deservedly ruined his own reputation.


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## AdorableAlice (4 March 2021)

Mrs Jingle said:



			Very off topic but a little light heated observation seeing Michael O'Leary's name mentioned. Back in the day I went to a very well known dealer's yard over here in Ireland, to try a horse they had for sale.

After trying it I decided not to buy for reasons I won't go into on here. The dealer tried to change my mind with these words that he obviously thought would seal the deal. But you must want it...... do you know that Michael O'leary owned it.....this is some horse???? He was absolutely incredulous when I said I don't care who owns it I am not buying it lol!

Sorry off topic but I often chuckle when I remember that day and still wonder did someone eventually buy it purely because Michael O'Leary owned it! 

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I have a similar story, but I did buy the horse.  Mine was owned and trained by a British Olympic dressage rider and honestly described as not going to go beyond AM level so for sale as a pleasure horse back in 2004. The name did not faze me at all and they certainly had good taste in horse quality !  The only thing that got to me was the lesson offered to me before I made my mind up.   I was incredibly nervous to be riding in front of such greatness and it soon became apparent such greatness realised I was pretty useless !

Such greatness was and still is stick thin, all legs and boots elegantly wrapped around the horse who floated around the arena with invisible buttons being pressed.  I get on and all the flabby bits press all the buttons at the same time and achieve every dressage movement forwards, backwards and sideways all at the same time.


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## tristar (4 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Actually it's not just "extreme" horse sport, in fact most of those horses are far better off than the ones I see owned by the average horse owner who may have extremely limited knowledge (and funds).  I mean, if we're getting into what is morally justifiable to do to a horse, then riding it at all is arguably not in it's best interests.[/QUOTE




opposite polarities throw up different moral considerations, yes don`t ride a horse, if you think its wrong,  i don`t care what you do, then maybe it won`t exist at all,    actually



daily on here you can see the lengths people go to when their horses need care and the dedication the average person  puts in when their horses are ill  is amazing 

the life of a  racehorse is  like living with russian roulette,  the  glory or the slaughterhouse, and sometimes a happy ending in a rehome or if you drop down dead  someone sits on you
		
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## tristar (4 March 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			I have a similar story, but I did buy the horse.  Mine was owned and trained by a British Olympic dressage rider and honestly described as not going to go beyond AM level so for sale as a pleasure horse back in 2004. The name did not faze me at all and they certainly had good taste in horse quality !  The only thing that got to me was the lesson offered to me before I made my mind up.   I was incredibly nervous to be riding in front of such greatness and it soon became apparent such greatness realised I was pretty useless !

Such greatness was and still is stick thin, all legs and boots elegantly wrapped around the horse who floated around the arena with invisible buttons being pressed.  I get on and all the flabby bits press all the buttons at the same time and achieve every dressage movement forwards, backwards and sideways all at the same time.
		
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now now, more than hint of sarcasm in there!

yes how do get to be  so thin?


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## Orangehorse (4 March 2021)

Racehorses do get looked after very well in 99% of cases.  I don't think the non racing public knows quite how many checks and regulations there are.  

Everything is done to get that small improvement to fitness and well being, as that can mean the difference between winning and being second.

Having said that, the racehorse is an athlete and sent out to race which means having to make maximum effort which is seldom required of most other horses.  Even hunters on a hard day get a breather every so often.


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## HorsesRule2009 (5 March 2021)

I am really hating the trial by social media atm.
Yes he's done wrong, but he hasn't physically hard the horse in the photo, and as previous poster has said racehorses are well cared for and looked after as they will preform better. 

Also (not directed at anyone here just in general) I'm sure nearly everyone at some point in their life has made a really silly decision on one with out thinking and nearly instantly regretted it? I know that doesn't excuse what is happening here but it's literally a snap shot in time, and the people wanting him to loose everything seems slightly wrong, there's far worse abuse to horses/animals that definitely do deserve the highest penaltys but don't think this is one. Yes probably deserves a small ban and a fine. 
Just my thoughts


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## Teaboy (5 March 2021)

I’m always torn on racing, part of me loves it (I have worked in it) another part of me hates the throw away nature of it for some yards. I’ve heard of yards shooting their failed ones without a second thought, not just one or two but lots! Not even bothering to attempt to find them new homes. This kind of thinking has to change. Gordon Elliot deserves a temporary ban IMO but certainly we don’t need the trial by social media.


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## shortstuff99 (5 March 2021)

There is making silly mistakes and there is making silly mistakes. 

If instead of a horse it had been a human, would your thoughts be different? If so why or why not? 

If it had been a rare species would your opinion be the same too?


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## Rowreach (5 March 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			There is making silly mistakes and there is making silly mistakes.

If instead of a horse it had been a human, would your thoughts be different? If so why or why not?

If it had been a rare species would your opinion be the same too?
		
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No, because those things are not remotely comparable and I would have a different view on each.

I cannot get my head around people being so vitriolic over a picture of a horse that died in training (sadly all sorts of horses drop dead sometimes) and less worked up about the blatant cruelty to living breathing ones (like showjumpers beating the sh1t out of a horse in the ring, or showing producers leaving horses standing in tight draw reins, or rollkur or people who starve their animals.

This thread just reads like a personal vendetta against someone probably no more than a couple of us have ever met, if that.


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## HorsesRule2009 (5 March 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			There is making silly mistakes and there is making silly mistakes.

If instead of a horse it had been a human, would your thoughts be different? If so why or why not?

If it had been a rare species would your opinion be the same too?
		
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I possibly would have a similar view as long as they hadn't actually killed the animal. (can't really compare to a human as that's weird) 
To me as others have said up post, the deadbody is no longer the being, its doesn't fell or no what was happening. As I've said before I don't agree or condone it but a silly mistake probably from a rash or impulsive thought.


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## Archangel (5 March 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			There is making silly mistakes and there is making silly mistakes.

If instead of a horse it had been a human, would your thoughts be different? If so why or why not?

If it had been a rare species would your opinion be the same too?
		
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I was thinking the other day in a moment of off piste randomness... if Gordon Elliot had put one of his cars (presuming not an old banger) in for servicing and he went in to find one of the mechanics lounging on the roof or lying in the back with his feet up on the headrest, yapping on the phone - I wonder what his response would have been.


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## Rowreach (5 March 2021)

Archangel said:



			I was thinking the other day in a moment of off piste randomness... if Gordon Elliot had put one of his cars (presuming not an old banger) in for servicing and he went in to find one of the mechanics lounging on the roof or lying in the back with his feet up on the headrest, yapping on the phone - I wonder what his response would have been.
		
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I doubt he would have set about destroying his life, his business, and putting multiple people out of work somehow.


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## shortstuff99 (5 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			No, because those things are not remotely comparable and I would have a different view on each.

I cannot get my head around people being so vitriolic over a picture of a horse that died in training (sadly all sorts of horses drop dead sometimes) and less worked up about the blatant cruelty to living breathing ones (like showjumpers beating the sh1t out of a horse in the ring, or showing producers leaving horses standing in tight draw reins, or rollkur or people who starve their animals.

This thread just reads like a personal vendetta against someone probably no more than a couple of us have ever met, if that.
		
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Well that's the thing isn't it? Some people don't really see the difference between a human or a horse as they were each a living, thinking being that deserved respect after their death. I am not as worked up about the death then I am about the mocking of it (and that is what it was). Why is the horse deemed less worthy then a human in death?

I am also worked upon about cruelty to living horses, I have room enough to be bothered by both.


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## Pearlsasinger (5 March 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			There is making silly mistakes and there is making silly mistakes.

If instead of a horse it had been a human, would your thoughts be different? If so why or why not?

If it had been a rare species would your opinion be the same too?
		
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If someone had been photo'd sitting on a dead person, there would very likely been all sorts of unsavoury, sexual connotations, so that isn't comparable.  
If it had been a rare species that had died of natural causes, as this horse did, I would have thought pretty  much the same as I do about the horse pic, it's a silly thing to do but not the end of the world.  
I have wondered if the reason GE sat on the horse was because it was the only time he could do so without being chucked off.


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## tristar (5 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			No, because those things are not remotely comparable and I would have a different view on each.

I cannot get my head around people being so vitriolic over a picture of a horse that died in training (sadly all sorts of horses drop dead sometimes) and less worked up about the blatant cruelty to living breathing ones (like showjumpers beating the sh1t out of a horse in the ring, or showing producers leaving horses standing in tight draw reins, or rollkur or people who starve their animals.

This thread just reads like a personal vendetta against someone probably no more than a couple of us have ever met, if that.
		
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the thing is he is supposed to be at the top of his game and his public exposure means he needs to consider the sports image in every small thing he does, he is  the top irish trainer single handedly in charge of the image,  the power  is in his hand at this moment in time to raise or crash down the sports image in the eyes of the world

i have been to so  many international sj competitions all over and i have never seen a rider beat a horse in the ring  or before and after, at lower levels maybe


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## ester (5 March 2021)

Someone took a selfie with Maradona and no one liked that.


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## Tiddlypom (5 March 2021)

Good grief, I’d missed that .


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## splashgirl45 (5 March 2021)

tristar said:



			the thing is he is supposed to be at the top of his game and his public exposure means he needs to consider the sports image in every small thing he does, he is  the top irish trainer single handedly in charge of the image,  the power  is in his hand at this moment in time to raise or crash down the sports image in the eyes of the world

i have been to so  many international sj competitions all over and i have never seen a rider beat a horse in the ring  or before and after, at lower levels maybe
		
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there is a post on the news page about someone beating their horse in the ring, and not at the lower level...  if he does that in full view, what does he do in private?


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## shortstuff99 (5 March 2021)

ester said:



			Someone took a selfie with Maradona and no one liked that.
		
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Did anyone mind if he got sacked or did they say it was just a moment of madness?


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## tristar (5 March 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			there is a post on the news page about someone beating their horse in the ring, and not at the lower level...  if he does that in full view, what does he do in private?
		
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could you say the same about ge?


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## FinnishLapphund (5 March 2021)

Wishfilly said:



			It's not just that photo- it's the fact that another video showing similar has come out showing someone also involved in his set up. I think this suggests a culture towards the horses that makes me feel uncomfortable.

I also think it's made people aware of the fact that horses do die during training, which I think is something some people weren't aware of/didn't consider.
		
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Only because bad eggs exists, I don't label all other eggs as probably inedible.

I've only heard about the jockey video, not seen it, so I won't talk about that, but I've seen the photo, and read an explanation where G.E. was quoted saying his phone rang, and he sat down automatically, because he usually sits down when talking on his phone.
I find it very hard to believe that he would have sat down on the grass verge if the horse hadn't been there. Added to that, I thought it looked as if he did the V sign while the photo was taken. I think the photo looks despicable, but if it actually shows his true attitude towards horses, or if he had a spectacularly stupid moment, I don't know.

But even if it does show his true attitude to horses, I don't know of any foolproof profession, which is 100% safeguarded from that unsuitable persons can't get into the profession. I think it's better that the idiots/unsuitable persons are found out, so that they hopefully can change profession, and like with the eggs I mentioned first, only because some are idiots, usually I still presume that the majority is not.

As for horses dying during training, since anything living sadly can die, at any moment, I hope people realise that it would be more strange if it never happened.
Sometimes it turns out the death is related to what they was doing at the moment (which doesn't need to be under rider related), sometimes it turns out they would have died regardless if they'd been out eating grass in a field, standing in a stable, or something else.


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## Cortez (5 March 2021)

tristar said:



			could you say the same about ge?
		
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Gordon Elliot has not been videoed beating the cr*p out of a live (or dead) horse. The two things do not equate. Sitting on a dead horse is not cruel. Being photographed sitting on one is stupid, but not cruel.


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## Clodagh (5 March 2021)

Cortez said:



			Gordon Elliot has not been videoed beating the cr*p out of a live (or dead) horse. The two things do not equate. Sitting on a dead horse is not cruel. Being photographed sitting on one is stupid, but not cruel.
		
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Lydia Hislop wrote a good piece about the vitriol he has experienced v Davy Russell punching the horse in the head last year, (or year before) which was barely mentioned. Also other situations where cruelty had been carried out on live horses with barely any comment at all.


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## splashgirl45 (5 March 2021)

tristar said:



			could you say the same about ge?
		
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no..... i dont suppose he has been that successful if his horses were badly treated....  

my post was in response to you saying you had never seen show jumpers being beat in the ring


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## tristar (5 March 2021)

Cortez said:



			Gordon Elliot has not been videoed beating the cr*p out of a live (or dead) horse. The two things do not equate. Sitting on a dead horse is not cruel. Being photographed sitting on one is stupid, but not cruel.
		
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was referring to the what goes on in private no one knows

not putting the two things in the same perspective, ie beating and  sitting on horses obviously


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## tristar (5 March 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			no..... i dont suppose he has been that successful if his horses were badly treated....  

my post was in response to you saying you had never seen show jumpers being beat in the ring
		
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well not at top level which where ge is


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## Steerpike (5 March 2021)

GE banned for a year, 6 month suspended with a €15,000 fine


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## Elf On A Shelf (5 March 2021)

Gordon Elliott has been banned for a year with the last 6 months suspended and has been given a €15,000 fine. The ban starts on March 9th.

He can appeal and I certainly hope he does. This will allow his string to run at Cheltenham and Aintree.


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## Cortez (5 March 2021)

Steerpike said:



			GE banned for a year with a fine
		
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Good. Should be enough to silence the baying mob and teach him and other gombeens a lesson.


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## Steerpike (5 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Gordon Elliott has been banned for a year with the last 6 months suspended and has been given a €15,000 fine. The ban starts on March 9th.

He can appeal and I certainly hope he does. This will allow his string to run at Cheltenham and Aintree.
		
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I really hope he doesn't appeal


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## Smitty (5 March 2021)

What is a Gombeen?


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## Cortez (5 March 2021)

tristar said:



			was referring to the what goes on in private no one knows

not putting the two things in the same perspective, ie beating and  sitting on horses obviously
		
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The people who work there know, I know people who know people who work there. The stable is known for good standards of care, and the people who work there are some of the best.


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## neddy man (5 March 2021)

G E find €15,000 a one year ban with six months suspend. He has 7 days to appeal  but can race horses for up to 14  days from the verdict.


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## Cortez (5 March 2021)

Smitty said:



			What is a Gombeen?
		
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Whoo, well it's a rather specific (and very rude) Irish term, which is sort of on the same spectrum as "cute hoor" - I'm not helping am I?


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## Ditchjumper2 (5 March 2021)

12 months ban with last 6 months suspended.


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## Smitty (5 March 2021)

Cortez said:



			Whoo, well it's a rather specific (and very rude) Irish term, which is sort of on the same spectrum as "cute hoor" - I'm not helping am I?
		
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Well no you're not😊   Will try Google ...  but I think you have given it a task what with chuking in cute hoor 😦


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## meleeka (5 March 2021)

I hope the hate campaign stops now.  He’s being punished, fairly harshly I think  and that should be the end of it.


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## Steerpike (5 March 2021)

It looks like he will not appeal and will not have runners at Cheltenham


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## Crazy_cat_lady (5 March 2021)

Be interesting to see what the delightful owner who was so keen to support GE does...


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## fankino04 (5 March 2021)

So if he's suspended for 12 months does that just mean his assistant trainer steps up and the yard continues as before under different name or the yard is shut down? I suspect the former with him probably heavily involved in overseeing??


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## Lady2021 (5 March 2021)

I read that he was only banned for 6 months.


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## Rowreach (5 March 2021)

I feel sorry for the staff.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (5 March 2021)

fankino04 said:



			So if he's suspended for 12 months does that just mean his assistant trainer steps up and the yard continues as before under different name or the yard is shut down? I suspect the former with him probably heavily involved in overseeing??
		
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Surely if that happens GE can just train as normal,  as no one will know,  he then just can't physically attend meetings?


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## Amymay (5 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I cannot get my head around people being so vitriolic over a picture of a horse that died in training (sadly all sorts of horses drop dead sometimes) and less worked up about the blatant cruelty to living breathing ones (like showjumpers beating the sh1t out of a horse in the ring, or showing producers leaving horses standing in tight draw reins, or rollkur or people who starve their animals.
of us have ever met, if that.
		
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This forum has always reacted in outrage to rolkur, beatings and the other examples of mistreatment and cruelty you mention.

The vitriol over Gordon Elliott is simply down to the lack of respect shown to a good servant who died doing what it was asked to do.


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## Parrotperson (5 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Gordon Elliott has been banned for a year with the last 6 months suspended and has been given a €15,000 fine. The ban starts on March 9th.

He can appeal and I certainly hope he does. This will allow his string to run at Cheltenham and Aintree.
		
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Elf. I bow to your superior knowledge. Can his horses run under another trainer's name at Cheltenham and Aintree?


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## neddy man (5 March 2021)

Smitty said:



			What is a Gombeen?
		
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An Irish word meaning involved in lending money at unreasonable high interest rates. A wheeler dealer looking to make a quick profit at someone elses expense or through the acceptance of bribes. (From Google)


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## Rowreach (5 March 2021)

Amymay said:



			This forum has always reacted in outrage to rolkur, beatings and the other examples of mistreatment and cruelty you mention.

The vitriol over Gordon Elliott is simply down to the lack of respect shown to a good servant who died doing what it was asked to do.
		
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I'm not seeing that much outrage on here about the whip wielding showjumper (who is sitting on a living breathing horse while he physically abuses it).


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## Amymay (5 March 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I'm not seeing that much outrage on here about the whip wielding showjumper (who is sitting on a living breathing horse while he physically abuses it).
		
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 I glanced at the post this morning before going out.  My impression was that the rider was being condemned 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## Velcrobum (5 March 2021)

Here is the answer to some of your questions

https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...h-six-months-of-the-sentence-suspended/476433


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## Kipper's Dick (5 March 2021)

neddy man said:



			An Irish word meaning involved in lending money at unreasonable high interest rates. A wheeler dealer looking to make a quick profit at someone elses expense or through the acceptance of bribes. (From Google)
		
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What a great word.  I'm going to add it to my vocabulary immediately.


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## Amymay (5 March 2021)

Amymay said:



			I glanced at the post this morning before going out.  My impression was that the rider was being condemned 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
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Yep, just looked at it again.  Rider being condemned.

Do you want me to post a link so that it can get more condemnation and discussion?


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## Rowreach (5 March 2021)

Amymay said:



			I glanced at the post this morning before going out.  My impression was that the rider was being condemned 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
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By the few who had commented.  The GE thread has been front page since the photo came out.

I've just listened to his statement about the penalty.  He is taking it on the chin and considers it fair (even though by all accounts it is a very very hefty penalty) so I hope that people will be satisfied that it has been dealt with.


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## Rowreach (5 March 2021)

Amymay said:



			Yep, just looked at it again.  Rider being condemned.

Do you want me to post a link so that it can get more condemnation and discussion?
		
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Oh don't be ridiculous


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## Quigleyandme (5 March 2021)

GE has undertaken not to attend a race meeting or P2P for six months. The statement by the IHRB is measured and the punishment proportional. GE’s statement following the board decision is wholly satisfactory but I still don’t know how you can claim to love horses and that Morgan was loved and do what he did. No reasonable person could not think he has paid dearly enough for it though.


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## Elf On A Shelf (5 March 2021)

Parrotperson said:



			Elf. I bow to your superior knowledge. Can his horses run under another trainer's name at Cheltenham and Aintree?
		
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No not at Cheltenham now it's too late. It is 14 days transfer period. They can run at Aintree if moved in the next few weeks.


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## Velcrobum (5 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			No not at Cheltenham now it's too late. It is 14 days transfer period. They can run at Aintree if moved in the next few weeks.
		
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That is why Chievely (sp!) moved their horses so quickly so they could run,


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## tristar (5 March 2021)

Cortez said:



			The people who work there know, I know people who know people who work there. The stable is known for good standards of care, and the people who work there are some of the best.
		
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having been on yards that promoted themselves as top class and turned out to be shiteholes when i was there person, i would not be convinced by someone who knows someone

hearsay is the word,  and i am not expressing an opinion either way


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## AdorableAlice (5 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			No not at Cheltenham now it's too late. It is 14 days transfer period. They can run at Aintree if moved in the next few weeks.
		
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So does that mean the delightful O'Leary won't have any runners ?


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## Clodagh (5 March 2021)

I may be wrong but hasn’t he got 2 weeks before the suspension kicks in? So after Cheltenham?


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## tristar (5 March 2021)

Kipper's Dick said:



			What a great word.  I'm going to add it to my vocabulary immediately.
		
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but when you have the occasion to use it, not too often i hope


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## Tiddlypom (5 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I may be wrong but hasn’t he got 2 weeks before the suspension kicks in? So after Cheltenham?
		
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Suspension starts March 9th.

His post verdict statement does sound genuine, I have to say.

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...spended-fined-ihrb-referrals-committee-739390

_Horses are my life. I love them,” he said. “No one comes into racing for money — it is a hard way to make a living. We are here because we love horses. Anyone who has visited my stables at Cullentra will see the meticulous care with which we treat our horses. I was disrespectful to a dead horse, an animal that had been a loyal servant to me and was loved by my staff.

“I will carry the burden of my transgressions for the rest of my career. I will never again disrespect a horse living or dead and I will not tolerate it in others._


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## Quigleyandme (5 March 2021)

The Irish media is saying owners have until 9th March, which is when the ban takes effect, to transfer their horses to another yard if they want them to run at Cheltenham.


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## Kipper's Dick (5 March 2021)

tristar said:



			but when you have the occasion to use it, not too often i hope
		
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You make a fair point there, tristar.  I haven't met a gombeen lately, but it will be very useful if I do!


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## bonny (5 March 2021)

Why can’t someone else take over the licence and the horses stay where they are ?


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## Rowreach (5 March 2021)

bonny said:



			Why can’t someone else take over the licence and the horses stay where they are ?
		
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That's what happened with Piggotts.


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## Tihamandturkey (5 March 2021)

bonny said:



			Why can’t someone else take over the licence and the horses stay where they are ?
		
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There is talk of Davy Russell taking over 🤔


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## Quigleyandme (5 March 2021)

bonny said:



			Why can’t someone else take over the licence and the horses stay where they are ?
		
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I have time if the remuneration is satisfactory. Is that the ‘phone? I really don’t know Bonny. It would be so much better for the horses and the owners if that were doable and GE wouldn’t have to feel like such a gombeen (HHO word of the day).


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## Gingerwitch (5 March 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



_“I will carry the burden of my transgressions for the rest of my career. I will never again disrespect a horse living or dead and I will not tolerate it in others._

Click to expand...

What a strange statement, I will never again disrespect a horse living (so has he been ?) or dead (the issue was a dead horse).
If he had not been disrespectful to living horses why would this even come into his statement?


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## Quigleyandme (5 March 2021)

Tihama said:



			There is talk of Davy Russell is taking over 🤔
		
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Strenuously and emphatically denied.


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## Tihamandturkey (5 March 2021)

Quigleyandme said:



			Strenuously and emphatically denied.
		
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Protesting too much maybe?


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## Tiddlypom (5 March 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			What a strange statement, I will never again disrespect a horse living (so has he been ?) or dead (the issue was a dead horse).
If he had not been disrespectful to living horses why would this even come into his statement?
		
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I only know what is posted on here, but maybe this? 


druid said:



			The person who had the photo for 18 months and didn't got to IHRB is quite likely to get pulled in front of the hearing too going on several accounts over here. It's been widely touted on social media who released the photo and there is another video of inappropriate/cruel behaviour of a horse, allegedly which she threatened to release. The existence of which makes the whole thing of a moment of madness harder to swallow.
		
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## AdorableAlice (5 March 2021)

NEWS: Denise Foster tipped to replace Gordon Elliott (theirishfield.ie) 

The entries will run at Cheltenham.  All this must have been in place before the hearing, there is so much money at stake, there is no way horses that have been prepared for months would be not running.  BHA has stated if horses in another trainers name by 9th March they can run in UK.


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## Quigleyandme (5 March 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



NEWS: Denise Foster tipped to replace Gordon Elliott (theirishfield.ie)

The entries will run at Cheltenham.  All this must have been in place before the hearing, there is so much money at stake, there is no way horses that have been prepared for months would be not running.  BHA has stated if horses in another trainers name by 9th March they can run in UK.
		
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That seems an ideal solution for all involved. It would be so unfair to penalise the owners, yes, even him, by either making the horses move to another yard and risk running below par due to the disruption to their routine or not getting a run at all.


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## AdorableAlice (5 March 2021)

Quigleyandme said:



			That seems an ideal solution for all involved. It would be so unfair to penalise the owners, yes, even him, by either making the horses move to another yard and risk running below par due to the disruption to their routine or not getting a run at all.
		
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Lets hope he can find it in himself to be more polite to her than he normally is to the fairer sex !

I wondered if JP would leave his horses at Elliotts, he seems such a kind gentleman and loves his horses putting huge finance into the racing world and ensuring retirement for his horses.


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## Tiddlypom (5 March 2021)

Will GE still be permitted to be hands on at the yard? Is he likely to be trainer in all but name?


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## bonny (5 March 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Will GE still be permitted to be hands at the yard? Is he likely to be trainer in all but name?
		
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Yes


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## Cortez (5 March 2021)

Kipper's Dick said:



			What a great word.  I'm going to add it to my vocabulary immediately.
		
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Here's another one for you: gobshite. In the same family as gombeen, but gombeen's worse. The words have a whole lot more shade and nuance than the dictionary definition, but you kinda have to be Irish to get the full range of meaning. And GE's a gobshite too.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (5 March 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			Lets hope he can find it in himself to be more polite to her than he normally is to the fairer sex !

I wondered if JP would leave his horses at Elliotts, he seems such a kind gentleman and loves his horses putting huge finance into the racing world and ensuring retirement for his horses.
		
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I agree about JP, he has a large number of his retirees at Martinstown.

The less said about the other predominant owner the better. Hope to see Tiger Roll retired soon. His feelings towards his horses have been made clear by the fact one of his many is the one in THE photo.

Surely the fact GE can still do all the training, just unable to attend meetings doesn't really constitute a ban.

So effectively if I knew him, he could do all the behind the scenes stuff still, he just can't leave the yard so I'd attend that for him but he would do all the prep I just turn up at the meetings, probably with a detailed list of instructions/ tactics etc to relay.


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## Kipper's Dick (5 March 2021)

Cortez said:



			Here's another one for you: gobshite. In the same family as gombeen, but gombeen's worse. The words have a whole lot more shade and nuance than the dictionary definition, but you kinda have to be Irish to get the full range of meaning. And GE's a gobshite too.
		
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Thank you, Cortez, I'll add that one to my vocabulary too!  I'm on quite a steep learning curve tonight . . . I quite liked the sound of 'cute hoor' although an Urban Dictionary definition startled me somewhat  (second one down if you want to look it up!) but it did tell me how to pronounce it (hoor rhymes with sewer) !


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## neddy man (5 March 2021)

I wonder what the comments will be on ITVs  racing preview "the morning show"  tomorrow morning.


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## Tiddlypom (6 March 2021)

It’s not much of a ban if he is still permitted to be on the yard and to be directing operations. I’d assumed that a ban meant that he was warned off being present at training establishments as well as racecourses.

Still, it’s a very public putting on the naughty step. Denise Foster sounds like a very decent sort, I hope that her time as the figurehead are not too tricky for her.


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## ycbm (6 March 2021)

So have I got that right?   No ban from actually directing the training of horses. No ban from earning money from that.  Ban from appearing at race courses as anything but a member of the public, and having his name listed as the trainer.

Some "ban".

Sounds like a decent fine,  is he wealthy or will that actually sting a bit?


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## Clodagh (6 March 2021)

He will be very wealthy, as well as the training fees there is 10% of all winnings in there.
I think generally the punishment is a good and fair one. BITD a ban meant banned from all training establishments and racecourses, I don't know if that is still the case. If it is he'll be homeless!


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## Steerpike (6 March 2021)

They are discussing it now on the opening show


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## Cortez (6 March 2021)

As far as I'm hearing it from racing friends, he's off the yard altogether.


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## Elf On A Shelf (6 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			He will be very wealthy, as well as the training fees there is 10% of all winnings in there.
I think generally the punishment is a good and fair one. BITD a ban meant banned from all training establishments and racecourses, I don't know if that is still the case. If it is he'll be homeless!
		
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You don't actually earn much from training fees. Say 2k a month per horse basic that 1 persons wages a month. Then you have electric and water bills to pay. Mortgage possibly, land rent for gallops possibly (each set up is different not everyone owns their stuff out right) the upkeep of the gadgets even if the initial cost has been paid off. Maintenance of yard, stables, paddocks etc. So whilst he will have 300 paying horses in he won't really earn himself a huge salery out of it once all overheads are taken into account.


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## HorsesRule2009 (6 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			You don't actually earn much from training fees. Say 2k a month per horse basic that 1 persons wages a month. Then you have electric and water bills to pay. Mortgage possibly, land rent for gallops possibly (each set up is different not everyone owns their stuff out right) the upkeep of the gadgets even if the initial cost has been paid off. Maintenance of yard, stables, paddocks etc. So whilst he will have 300 paying horses in he won't really earn himself a huge salery out of it once all overheads are taken into account.
		
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Well said, think its easy to just see the pound signs sometimes with out stepping back and seeing the whole picture with regards to out going expenses x


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## Lexi 123 (6 March 2021)

He is definitely a idiot  I think he actually got away lightly considering the damage he has done to the racing industry. A jockey said that it’s to harsh it makes you wonder if a lot of that goes on behind the scenes since there is so many people defending  him.


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## Quigleyandme (6 March 2021)

The damage to his reputation may well be irreversible. He will no longer be the youngest trainer to have a Grand National winner, he will be the guy in the picture that shocked and disgusted the racing world let alone the rest of us. He has not been banned for animal cruelty but for being a gobshite and bringing the sport into disrepute and as such the penalty brought by the IHRB is at the severe end of proportionate. I’m putting my pitchfork away now.


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## Cortez (6 March 2021)

Lexi 123 said:



			He is definitely a idiot  I think he actually got away lightly considering the damage he has done to the racing industry. A jockey said that it’s to harsh it makes you wonder if a lot of that goes on behind the scenes since there is so many people defending  him.
		
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Why would it make you wonder that? I don't see the logic.


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## bonny (6 March 2021)

Cortez said:



			As far as I'm hearing it from racing friends, he's off the yard altogether.
		
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Gordon Elliot just trained a 14 year old to win easily, he’s a brilliant trainer despite dodgy photos emerging. They have also confirmed that Denise Foster is going to be the licence holder but that Gordon will be there assisting. So basically everything will carry on as before but his name won’t appear next to the runners for 6 months.


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## Clodagh (6 March 2021)

bonny said:



			Gordon Elliot just trained a 14 year old to win easily, he’s a brilliant trainer despite dodgy photos emerging. They have also confirmed that Denise Foster is going to be the licence holder but that Gordon will be there assisting. So basically everything will carry on as before but his name won’t appear next to the runners for 6 months.
		
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Well that's a complete waste of time then. Why is he not banned from racing establishments like normal procedure?


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## Velcrobum (6 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Well that's a complete waste of time then. Why is he not banned from racing establishments like normal procedure?
		
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I think he is off the yard see #518


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## bonny (6 March 2021)

Velcrobum said:



			I think he is off the yard see #518
		
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Despite what you think, the yard have put out a statement saying the contrary!


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## Clodagh (6 March 2021)

bonny said:



			Despite what you think, the yard have put out a statement saying the contrary!
		
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The quote I saw said he would assist. That could mean be at the end of a phone? I assumed you knew he was staying or the yard may have released another statement I haven’t seen.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (6 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Well that's a complete waste of time then. Why is he not banned from racing establishments like normal procedure?
		
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Exactly, and if he's still doing all the day to day training, he could just write a list of instructions for whoever represents him at the races.


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## Rowreach (6 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Well that's a complete waste of time then. Why is he not banned from racing establishments like normal procedure?
		
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Well maybe the powers that be think that a 6 month ban from being the named license holder, plus the fine, plus staying away from racecourses, plus the lynching by social media, is enough.  He wasn't being done for cruelty/doping/laying bets, and yon ex who (allegedly) released the photo seems to have gotten off lightly, given that's done just as much to bring racing into disrepute as he has.


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## scotlass (6 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Well that's a complete waste of time then. Why is he not banned from racing establishments like normal procedure?
		
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The statement that was issued about Denise Foster taking over the licence, with GE on hand to assist, sounds like he's sticking two fingers up at the IHRB.


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## bonny (6 March 2021)

scotlass said:



			The statement that was issued about Denise Foster taking over the licence, with GE on hand to assist, sounds like he's sticking two fingers up at the IHRB.
		
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Why ? No one said he couldn’t assist with the training and I’m sure everyone imagined this is what would happen. Or do you really think he should move out for six months ?


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## Mrs. Jingle (6 March 2021)

I don't actually believe the IHRB meant to 'punish' him in the true sense of the word do you? I think this is all just a huge PR exercise to try and retrieve some of the rather iffy reputation that racing already had long before this eejit plonked himself on a dead horse to rest himself while chatting with his pal.


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## ycbm (6 March 2021)

bonny said:



			Why ? No one said he couldn’t assist with the training and I’m sure everyone imagined this is what would happen. Or do you really think he should move out for six months ?
		
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I don't think he should move out but I think a ban,  in most people's view,  would mean you can't earn any money from the activity,  and for a trainer also that you can't watch the horses on the gallops,  be consulted about how they are working,  give advice on what they should do tomorrow,  eat,  where they should run etc.

A ban where you can effectively carry on the job barring accompanying the horses to the race track,  is no ban worthy of the name.

So I hope the fine (and legal fees)  stings pretty hard.


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## ycbm (6 March 2021)

Mrs Jingle said:



			I don't actually believe the IHRB meant to 'punish' him in the true sense of the word do you? I think this is all just a huge PR exercise to try and retrieve some of the rather iffy reputation that racing already had long before this eejit plonked himself on a dead horse to rest himself while chatting with his pal.
		
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It won't work,  either,  will it?  That photo will resurface again and again until jump racing is as dead as the horse was.  
.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (6 March 2021)

ycbm said:



			I don't think he should move out but I think a ban,  in most people's view,  would mean you can't earn any money from the activity,  and for a trainer also that you can't watch the horses on the gallops,  be consulted about how they are working,  give advice on what they should do tomorrow,  eat,  where they should run etc.

A ban where you can effectively carry on the job barring accompanying the horses to the race track,  is no ban worthy of the name.

So I hope the fine (and legal fees)  stings pretty hard.
		
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Exactly! If he had to be out the way completely, it would mean the training and analysis would be down to whoever covered him while he's banned. I know he could write training schedules etc down for them but it would be a lot more distanced than him being there day to day, almost as normal...


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## AdorableAlice (6 March 2021)

Mrs Jingle said:



			I don't actually believe the IHRB meant to 'punish' him in the true sense of the word do you? I think this is all just a huge PR exercise to try and retrieve some of the rather iffy reputation that racing already had long before this eejit plonked himself on a dead horse to rest himself while chatting with his pal.
		
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The 15k fee is small change.  The statement saying he is assisting simply means he is carrying on as normal with just a different name on the licence.  The general public will see it for what it is, that being the the racing regulator is a farce and have brushed the outcry under the carpet.  Luke Harvey summed up what needs to happen very well.  Racing has to be transparent and open to scrutiny and inspection.

Today 2 dead horses, if Cheltenham and Aintree produce a bucket full of dead horses, racing will plummet even further into being an unacceptable spectacle for many.


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## dogatemysalad (7 March 2021)

The plot thickens. Was the photo revenge for Elliott refusing to work with a criminal drug gang ?


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## Tiddlypom (7 March 2021)

Eh? Source?


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## dogatemysalad (7 March 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Eh? Source?
		
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Mr Justice Raymond Groarke. 
Also follow the Irish Independent reports 're John Boylan in early 2019.


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## DabDab (7 March 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Eh? Source?
		
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Judge made a vague reference to dark backstory to the release of the picture. And based on that the daily fail appears to be running with the theory of drug connections.

Seems unlikely to me, not exactly the usual revenge/retribution MO for drug gangsters. 
Woman scorned sounds many many times more likely.


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## dogatemysalad (7 March 2021)

DabDab said:



			Judge made a vague reference to dark backstory to the release of the picture. And based on that the daily fail appears to be running with the theory of drug connections.

Seems unlikely to me, not exactly the usual revenge/retribution MO for drug gangsters.
Woman scorned sounds many many times more likely.
		
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I've no idea about who the source was, but I had a friend who was a jockey in Miami and New York a good few years back, and the drug gangsters theory wouldn't have been far fetched at all.


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## Clodagh (7 March 2021)

Sounds like a Dick Francis book!


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## DabDab (7 March 2021)

dogatemysalad said:



			I've no idea about who the source was, but I had a friend who was a jockey in Miami and New York a good few years back, and the drug gangsters theory wouldn't have been far fetched at all.
		
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Drug gangsters not far fetched no, but a public smear campaign based on this kind of thing is not exactly the way drug gangsters usually do business.


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## ycbm (7 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Sounds like a Dick Francis book!
		
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Sounds like a Smokescreen (pub. 1972) 
.


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## Mule (7 March 2021)

I heard it was because he cheated on his girlfriend. Both the girlfriend and the mistress are young and very pretty (there are photos in one of the papers). GE must either have a great personality or be worth millions because I dont know what else the attraction could be.


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## Clodagh (7 March 2021)

Mule said:



			I heard it was because he cheated on his girlfriend. Both the girlfriend and the mistress are young and very pretty (there are photos in one of the papers). GE must either have a great personality or be worth millions because I dont know what else the attraction could be.
		
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Hidden talents perhaps!? 🤣


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## Mule (7 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Hidden talents perhaps!? 🤣
		
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Perhaps 🤣🤣


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## Parrotperson (7 March 2021)

has anyone else seen the damning article on the back page of the Sunday times sporting section?

Barely mentions Elliott but is damning of the industry as a whole (mentions 7 thoroughbred racehorses abandoned in Ireland in an appalling state, among other things) 

It also mentions wind ops and doing them preemptively. They do seem to be fashionable nowadays whether the horses need them or not. 

Anyway I think the sort needs to change. My first thing would be to ban using the whip to make a horse go faster. It should be carried only to correct a wayward horse. I know John Francome feels the same.


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## AdorableAlice (7 March 2021)

Parrotperson said:



			has anyone else seen the damning article on the back page of the Sunday times sporting section?

Barely mentions Elliott but is damning of the industry as a whole (mentions 7 thoroughbred racehorses abandoned in Ireland in an appalling state, among other things)

It also mentions wind ops and doing them preemptively. They do seem to be fashionable nowadays whether the horses need them or not.

Anyway I think the sort needs to change. My first thing would be to ban using the whip to make a horse go faster. It should be carried only to correct a wayward horse. I know John Francome feels the same.
		
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This was always going to happen after the Elliott farce, it is just the beginning and if Cheltenham/Aintree is a blood bath the journalists are going to have a field day.  Racing is exposed now and many anti racing organisations/investigative journalists will be looking for dirty washing to hang out.  The ripples from last week are not going to stop anytime soon and the people who will suffer most are the good honest people in the industry.


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## PurBee (7 March 2021)

Kipper's Dick said:



			You make a fair point there, tristar.  I haven't met a gombeen lately, but it will be very useful if I do!
		
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useful term to use on horse selling ads instead of adding ‘No dealers’ 😜


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## tristar (8 March 2021)

Kipper's Dick said:



			Thank you, Cortez, I'll add that one to my vocabulary too!  I'm on quite a steep learning curve tonight . . . I quite liked the sound of 'cute hoor' although an Urban Dictionary definition startled me somewhat  (second one down if you want to look it up!) but it did tell me how to pronounce it (hoor rhymes with sewer) !
		
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you should post more often, you have quite cheered me up


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## tristar (8 March 2021)

Parrotperson said:



			has anyone else seen the damning article on the back page of the Sunday times sporting section?

Barely mentions Elliott but is damning of the industry as a whole (mentions 7 thoroughbred racehorses abandoned in Ireland in an appalling state, among other things) 

It also mentions wind ops and doing them preemptively. They do seem to be fashionable nowadays whether the horses need them or not. 

Anyway I think the sort needs to change. My first thing would be to ban using the whip to make a horse go faster. It should be carried only to correct a wayward horse. I know John Francome feels the same.
		
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the better a horse can breath the better it can run


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## tristar (8 March 2021)

dogatemysalad said:



			I've no idea about who the source was, but I had a friend who was a jockey in Miami and New York a good few years back, and the drug gangsters theory wouldn't have been far fetched at all.
		
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sadly drugs are kinda in your face in ireland


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## Clodagh (8 March 2021)

tristar said:



			the better a horse can breath the better it can run
		
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I’m opposed to wind ops. They should be bred to be strong and healthy.


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## Kipper's Dick (8 March 2021)

tristar said:



			you should post more often, you have quite cheered me up
		
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Thank you, tristar, what a nice thing to say


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## tristar (8 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I’m opposed to wind ops. They should be bred to be strong and healthy.
		
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well obviously, not something i would ever do


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## Parrotperson (8 March 2021)

tristar said:



			the better a horse can breath the better it can run
		
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I realise that! But the thing these days is to just do it regardless 0f whether there's a wind issue or not. daft.


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## ycbm (8 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I’m opposed to wind ops. They should be bred to be strong and healthy.
		
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I've had one done and it was a big relief for him.  Unfortunately horses are designed with a flaw,  the nerve to the left hand side of the larynx is much longer than the right one.  It's routed down the neck,  round the aorta and all the way back up again and it's prone to failure in big horses.

But to do it preemptively is surely unethical?  And it should be against the rules that vets practise under to operate on a healthy horse that has no certainty of becoming unhealthy in its wind, that's what confuses me.


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## Elf On A Shelf (8 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I’m opposed to wind ops. They should be bred to be strong and healthy.
		
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*cough*don't touch a Yeats then*cough* 

Some bloodlines are more prone to throwing horses requiring wind ops than others. But as is with everything bloodstock related -so long as the horses are winners they will always be bred from regardless of conformation.


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## Clodagh (8 March 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			*cough*don't touch a Yeats then*cough*

Some bloodlines are more prone to throwing horses requiring wind ops than others. But as is with everything bloodstock related -so long as the horses are winners they will always be bred from regardless of conformation.
		
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Its never gping to stop, I know, but soundness and breathing, surely you need those to be a racehorse? Abnd then to breed more of the same?


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## Elf On A Shelf (8 March 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Its never gping to stop, I know, but soundness and breathing, surely you need those to be a racehorse? Abnd then to breed more of the same?
		
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You would think! Flat horses only need to stay sound for 2-3 seasons before they are punted off to stud. Few flat horses need wind ops because their races are over before their wind comes into effect. Plus quicker summer ground/beach donkey derby surface helps. Obviously NH horses race for longer and on softer surfaces hence wind ops are more prevalent. 

The pre-emptive wind ops are usually firing of little bits to tighten them up. The horse only requires a week of quiet work after so it is much less time consuming than a full op. The full ops take month's to come back from so aren't done as a pre-emptive thing, much more of a - horse makes a noise, can't breath, give a proper op. All come under the same Wind Op banner for the BHA.


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## ycbm (8 March 2021)

Thanks for that explanation ELF, precautionary laser is a completely different thing to a tie back under GA, of course. I see why they don't distinguish if it's just notification to punters that the horse may run better after it's done. The Times article was a bit inflammatory not making that clearer.  
.


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## McGrools (8 March 2021)

I adore national hunt racing and always have, i love Cheltenham week more than any other week of the year, i love the emotions when a horse gives its all and is victorious, but i must say i have seen so many broken legs over the last few weeks, i am somewhat apprehensive about Cheltenham next week. Fatalities are going to be in the spotlight, i just hope and pray that they are at a minimum xx


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## tristar (8 March 2021)

Parrotperson said:



			I realise that! But the thing these days is to just do it regardless 0f whether there's a wind issue or not. daft.
		
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yes i understand that it is enhancement of natural ability


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## Cortez (8 March 2021)

McGrools said:



			I adore national hunt racing and always have, i love Cheltenham week more than any other week of the year, i love the emotions when a horse gives its all and is victorious, but i must say i have seen so many broken legs over the last few weeks, i am somewhat apprehensive about Cheltenham next week. Fatalities are going to be in the spotlight, i just hope and pray that they are at a minimum xx
		
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I like to think that we *always* hope and pray that no horse (or jockey) has to die to provide sport.


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## stormox (11 March 2021)

Mrs Jingle said:



			I don't actually believe the IHRB meant to 'punish' him in the true sense of the word do you? I think this is all just a huge PR exercise to try and retrieve some of the rather iffy reputation that racing already had long before this eejit plonked himself on a dead horse to rest himself while chatting with his pal.
		
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The difficulty is it would be hard to punish Gordon Elliot with a longer ban, or totally removing him,without punishing a lot of totally blameless staff and owners. He employs many many true horselovers.


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