# Flying change inconsistency



## applecart14 (24 July 2015)

I wondered if anyone else has a problem with their horses flying changes.

My horse can do flying changes till they are coming out of his ears when there are jumps in the menage but when there are no jumps I really struggle with him.

The other weekend he was doing flying changes from both reins, consistently without a problem.  There were jumps in the school which, when I'd finished doing changes jumped him over.  The next day I took him in and the menage was clear and schooled him.  He managed to do two from right rein to left rein, but then couldn't do left back to right again.  I asked him again and again and again.  Then I asked him to do the other direction (which he never struggles with) and he couldn't do them again either!  In the end he got so tired and I got flustered so I gave up and brought him in. To be fair he struggles with left to right changes  but when jumps are in the school never has a problem!

A week goes by of schooling and hacking and a day off.  I set out jumps in the menage.  Doing flying changes without a problem (on both reins).

Day before yesterday schooling, no jumps in menage.  Unable to perform anything at all on any rein, eventually gives me a couple of right to lefts.  Try for about twenty minutes doing left to right, eventually gave me one, to which he received raptuous applause!   

Last night had a jump in the school, guess what??? Flying changes no problem, both reins!!

What difference should jumps make, as to whether my horse changes or not?????
My stirrups only go up one hole from flat work and spurs/lack of spurs makes no difference.
Still warmed up the same.  I'm trying not to turn it into a big issue, but secretly its frustrating me to death.


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## spacefaer (24 July 2015)

maybe it's the quality of your canter? Is it more forward, with more impulsion?

How are you asking for the changes?


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## applecart14 (24 July 2015)

Inside leg on the girth outside behind, ask for the change by swapping so inside leg on the girth (on the new inside of the new bend if that makes sense).  I am also helping the horse by 'neck reining'.  When I am in a jump off and want him to land on a certain leg, whilst in the air over a jump I will bring my outside rein across slightly on his neck and 'open up' the new inside hand.  So I am doing this on the change.  I am also making sure that we canter straight for a couple of strides and I am also trying to ask when the new bend inside hind is in suspension.  This is by feel not by sight though obviously.

It might be me, not sat straight.  I shouldn't automattically blame the horse. 

The horse has worse spavin in his right hock (although you wouldn't know to watch him that there was anything wrong with him) and he has a recent (repaired) hind suspensory branch injury inside his hear hind.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 July 2015)

hes an old boy with multiple problems, i would guess the adrenalin of jumping allows him to skip behind and change but when asked in *cold blood* he finds it too hard/painful.

hes never going to be an adv med dressage horse so why not leave him alone?

and before anyone jumps on me, go read all the OP previous threads. this is ridiculous.


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## samsbilly (24 July 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			hes an old boy with multiple problems, i would guess the adrenalin of jumping allows him to skip behind and change but when asked in *cold blood* he finds it too hard/painful.

hes never going to be an adv med dressage horse so why not leave him alone?

and before anyone jumps on me, go read all the OP previous threads. this is ridiculous.
		
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I have to agree with this. It was a really hard decision for me with my old boy to take a step back when we stopped progressing as much as we had been. He owes me absolutely nothing and has given me so much. Why do you need to do flying changes on the flat? Surely he is trying to tell you something. The hardest part of owning a horse is putting our egos to one side and listening to them.


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## Pinkvboots (24 July 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			hes an old boy with multiple problems, i would guess the adrenalin of jumping allows him to skip behind and change but when asked in *cold blood* he finds it too hard/painful.

hes never going to be an adv med dressage horse so why not leave him alone?

and before anyone jumps on me, go read all the OP previous threads. this is ridiculous.
		
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Agree you have just said he has had two big issues in his hind legs why would you want to be doing flying changes!


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## Swirlymurphy (24 July 2015)

I have no idea what has gone on before but I have to say my first reaction is that he is uncomfortable somewhere.  Sorry


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## chestnut cob (24 July 2015)

I know nothing about flying changes; my only comment would be that trying to achieve the same thing for a whole 20 mins seems pointless to me.  I ask for something then if I don't get it try again then reassess. If you're asking for 20 min and not getting it then you either have a very confused horse or one who physically can't do it. I expect my horse to at least try when I ask for something then we can build on that.


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## star (24 July 2015)

I have the opposite problem. In a dressage saddle and canter I can get changes no probs. In a jumping saddle once we get into a forwards jumping canter he gets a bit on  the forehand and can't do a clean change to save his life. Frustrating given I only taught him them for jumping! I would definitely be thinking something physical if he refused to give me them at all though.


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## applecart14 (27 July 2015)

star said:



			I have the opposite problem. In a dressage saddle and canter I can get changes no probs. In a jumping saddle once we get into a forwards jumping canter he gets a bit on  the forehand and can't do a clean change to save his life. Frustrating given I only taught him them for jumping! I would definitely be thinking something physical if he refused to give me them at all though.
		
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Its nothing physical.  He's been seen by the vet and he's fine.  He doesn't refuse to give them me all the time, just mainly when we do flat work. 
I might have known not to ask a simple question on here, because all I get is silly sad remarks from the usual crowd.  The horse is sound, happy in his work and back jumping again.  THe vet gave him the all clear weeks ago, I've done three comps with him, two dressage and one jumping.  Our first time back jumping 5th out of 35 in the class, placed 5th and 2nd in dressage. If he was uncomfortable in his work he wouldn't jump, move sound in front of a judge. Simple. 

I don't want him to be an advanced medium dressage horse, I really don't know why anyone would think this!!????  I really can't believe some people on this forum...... words escape me. Typical of FB though.

Maybe I should be euthanased as I have two slipped discs, plantar fascitis and a serious dislike for people who don't know what they are talking about


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (27 July 2015)

all you do is post about how the horse is lame. then sound.then lame.then sound.

and in between about how he is being pushed to jump and now to learn a completely new skill and wonder why people cant stop pointing out the blindingly obvious-the horse is not comfortable with the level of work!

thankfully the people that have genuine horse sense wont back down and i for one wont stop pointing this out because it barely falls short of abuse.


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## Lanky Loll (27 July 2015)

I was always taught that you don't ask for changes until the horse is strong enough to do them - they may offer them anyway as yours is doing whilst jumping but by refusing to do them on the flat when asked I would say that he's not strong enough in himself to do them.  Along with the ongoing issues that you've had with him I would look at working with him to strengthen up before asking him for changes.


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## Pinkvboots (27 July 2015)

applecart14 said:



			Its nothing physical.  He's been seen by the vet and he's fine.  He doesn't refuse to give them me all the time, just mainly when we do flat work. 
I might have known not to ask a simple question on here, because all I get is silly sad remarks from the usual crowd.  The horse is sound, happy in his work and back jumping again.  THe vet gave him the all clear weeks ago, I've done three comps with him, two dressage and one jumping.  Our first time back jumping 5th out of 35 in the class, placed 5th and 2nd in dressage. If he was uncomfortable in his work he wouldn't jump, move sound in front of a judge. Simple. 

I don't want him to be an advanced medium dressage horse, I really don't know why anyone would think this!!????  I really can't believe some people on this forum...... words escape me. Typical of FB though.

Maybe I should be euthanased as I have two slipped discs, plantar fascitis and a serious dislike for people who don't know what they are talking about 

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If you don't want stupid replies don't ask stupid questions it's obvious your horse is getting older his had quite a few health issues which will effect his performance, common sense tells you that he may struggle with more difficult things now so maybe give him a break from it rather than continue to push him beyond his means, and vets will often say a horse can return back to the same level of work but it does not mean it's right, they don't ride the horse and see it on a daily basis you do so I think an owner of a horse can often have a much better idea of what a horse can cope with you would think anyway.


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## KautoStar1 (27 July 2015)

your poor horse.


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## ester (27 July 2015)

Amazed to be reading this post and that the OP can still say 'it's nothing physical' and doesn't seem to understand the concept that they are relatives of comfort. 

PS's point is if you don't want him to be a adv medium dressage horse why does he need to do changes.


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## applecart14 (28 July 2015)

ester said:



			Amazed to be reading this post and that the OP can still say 'it's nothing physical' and doesn't seem to understand the concept that they are relatives of comfort. 

PS's point is if you don't want him to be a adv medium dressage horse why does he need to do changes.
		
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We are all in stitches at the yard where I keep my horse reading the daft replies and comments on my perfectly reasonable question about flying changes.  Those that know Bailey, see him on a daily basis and see him ridden cannot understand how those that don't know him, have never met him, never seen him in action and don't know his veterinary history OR ARE EVEN QUALIFIED VETS can stand in judgement about soemthing they know nothing about.

All this crap about me being in denial, being cruel, etc etc, for goodness sake get a grip on reality.

A horse doesn't need to be an advanced dressage horse in order to do flying changes, anymore than it needs to be a racehorse to enjoy a gallop, or be a endurance horse to go on a 12 mile fun ride.  I can't even believe you ask such  a stupid question!!!!!!?????????  Duh.

You idiots really spoil my enjoyment of this forum which is why I hardly ever venture on here anymore.


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## samsbilly (28 July 2015)

I am fairly sure that at least one of the posters to this thread is a qualified vet. 
Ultimately he is your horse and you can do as you please with him, however there are many people on this forum with vast arrays of experience who have offered you advise which you have chosen to ignore or brand as silly. That is your choice. If you don't want peoples opinions why post at all?


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## Possum (28 July 2015)

Can your horse reliably perform walk-canter, counter canter and simple changes in self carriage and a soft, consistent outline? If not then the basics just aren't there to do a correct flying change. It's one thing to rush them on an adrenaline boost when jumping, but (I believe you are realizing) quite another to perform them correctly on the flat. Improve the quality of the canter, get the earlier building blocks in place and then the changes will take care of themselves - it's not fair to pressure your horse to perform a 'party piece' when it doesn't sound as if (for whatever reason) the basis is there.


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## applecart14 (28 July 2015)

Possum said:



			Can your horse reliably perform walk-canter, counter canter and simple changes in self carriage and a soft, consistent outline? If not then the basics just aren't there to do a correct flying change. It's one thing to rush them on an adrenaline boost when jumping, but (I believe you are realizing) quite another to perform them correctly on the flat. Improve the quality of the canter, get the earlier building blocks in place and then the changes will take care of themselves - it's not fair to pressure your horse to perform a 'party piece' when it doesn't sound as if (for whatever reason) the basis is there.
		
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 He can do changes on the flat as I explained twice, so its nothing to do with the 'adrenalin' of jumping.  As for 'rushing' he is 18 years of age??  He can do walk to canter, canter to walk, counter canter, and simple changes.  Always has been able to.  We've done elementary together.  
 It could be the quality of the canter and most probably me when it comes down to it not sitting straight maybe, or doing dressage in a GP saddle (as I have alwasy done up to elementary by the way).  But its not because he is in pain, that is laughable.  I'm not pressuring him into a party piece either..... weird your outlook on things...... but still.  At least your reply was more sensible than the others... by a slim margin.

Do you know what I really can't be bothered to come on this forum again.  I've been on about three times in the last few weeks, but I find the company tedious and the replies nonsensical, predictable and very inaccurate.

Thanks for giving me 'permission' to ride my horse Samsbilly.  I asked for a sensible solution to a sensible question, not people who like to think they are vets with no knowledge of my horse giving their opinions about trash.  Or those that like to think they are more qualified than my vets, plenty of those on here who think I should change my vet, have my horse put to sleep, retire him and everything in between.

Like I say, we all have a hoot anyway.  Those that know Bailey find it very funny.


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## KautoStar1 (28 July 2015)

But you post with such regularity and in detail about your horses lengthy medical problems and what work you do with him so how can you say we don't know his history.  It comes straight from the horses mouth, so to speak !!  

You are right, a horse doesn't need to be an advanced dressage horse to perform a change, but it must have the basics established as Possum points out so clearly and it must be physically capable.  With all the issues Bailey has had, it would be reasonable to assume that something like a change would be harder for him to do in cold blood.  And as you are spending quite a while getting know where it would suggest he either doesn't understand what you are asking or he can't physically manage it.


If you posted this on the BD forum for instance, with the other forum members being aware of the physical issues and age of your horse, I am pretty sure you'd get the same response !!!

As for having a grip on reality, who are you talking about ?   Yourself ?   If your enjoyment of the forum is spoiled I am afraid you bring much of that on yourself with your inflammatory responses and aggressive tone.  I think I've mentioned this before.


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## applecart14 (28 July 2015)

KautoStar1 said:



			But you post with such regularity and in detail about your horses lengthy medical problems and what work you do with him so how can you say we don't know his history.
		
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sorry but I am so bored with this now and really don't care what any of you think.
You are a bunch of fools.


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## ester (28 July 2015)

Do you know me in person!?

Pop someone else on him experienced with changes and that might show if it is you sitting straight/your timing or him.

Oh you edited... For others I asked the first question because applecart claimed to (sadly!) know me in person. AFAIK they don't and I have never met them!


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## Possum (28 July 2015)

applecart14 said:



			He can do changes on the flat as I explained twice, so its nothing to do with the 'adrenalin' of jumping.  As for 'rushing' he is 18 years of age??  He can do walk to canter, canter to walk, counter canter, and simple changes.  Always has been able to.  We've done elementary together.  
 It could be the quality of the canter and most probably me when it comes down to it not sitting straight maybe, or doing dressage in a GP saddle (as I have alwasy done up to elementary by the way).  But its not because he is in pain, that is laughable.  I'm not pressuring him into a party piece either..... weird your outlook on things...... but still.  At least your reply was more sensible than the others... by a slim margin.
		
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Not quite sure why I'm bothering to reply to such an abusive poster, but once more on the offchance that you are a reasonable person with a bad case of foot in mouth disease...

I didn't mean 'rushing' as in age, I meant rhythm/tempo. If you're jumping, everything's a bit more exciting and it's easier to blast through a poor quality change than it is to do it in a more 'academic' fashion on the flat.

So if I understand correctly, you have an 18yo horse who has previously competed at ele, and is now reluctant to change unless there are jumps out. This suggests that the quality of his canter and his suppleness isn't what it once was. This could be for SO many reasons - if he's lost muscle from being off work with whatever lameness issues he's had, if you've been less demanding of him in the school and let him get away with having a flat canter, you're not sitting straight or there is still something physically niggling him. As you've had the vet though, I think in all instances my recommendation would be the same - take a step back, don't beast him round for 20 minutes trying to get him to do a change work on the quality of your canter - half circles, simple changes, counter canter, shoulder in and LOTS of transitions. Video yourself to see how you both look. Then when everything else has improved, try popping a change in towards the middle/end of a schooling session and see what happens. If after a few weeks of work you haven't noticed any real change then I'm sorry but that does point towards something physical, be it a slight back leg stiffness, tight muscle, teeth, saddle issue or one of the million other things that can go wrong and cause a drop in performance. There's not a quick fix though, and if that's what you're hoping to find from posting here you'll be disappointed.


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## applecart14 (28 July 2015)

I didn't claim I knew you I claimed I knew Princess Sparkle (FB).


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## ester (28 July 2015)

TFFT! 

did anyone suggest getting a lesson to see what they think too, eyes on the floor might help as well as my previous suggestion.


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## applecart14 (28 July 2015)

Possum said:



			Not quite sure why I'm bothering to reply to such an abusive poster, but once more on the offchance that you are a reasonable person with a bad case of foot in mouth disease...
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I can assure you I am not being abusive but my lack of patience and increasing frustration has come from two years of being verbally abused by some of the people on here, on a constant basis and I have been told everything from having my horse pts to retired to getting a new vet as my old ones clearly don't know what they are doing (they are one of the finest vets in the Warwickshire area).

It gets a bit wearing sometimes.  Thanks for your suggestion Possum. I know its not a physical issue as he is not the type to get 'wound up' jumping so therefore there is no adrenalin rush. In between altering a course /waiting for the next class at a show my horse is practically falling asleep at the trailer, (been there done it) so this scenario is not correct.  

It might be that the canter is more active during a jumping session.  I will have a go at the suggestions you have made and see if I notice any difference.  Last time I schooled him he did one on the right rein and two on the left rein on the flat and he is getting stronger (I've been working him regularly in the school for approx three days a week for five weeks now).  I've lost a stone and a quarter in weight so I am fitter in myself and finding it easier to canter as my fitness has increased so I have done a lot of canter work with him recently and he is becoming fitter in himself.  

I do quite a few transitions when I ride but only ever ride for 30 mins tops when I school so I am only really active for about twenty of those after warm up/cool down is taken into account.


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## applecart14 (28 July 2015)

ester said:



			TFFT! 

did anyone suggest getting a lesson to see what they think too, eyes on the floor might help as well as my previous suggestion.
		
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I will be having lessons in August when the instructor I have asked to teach me returns from holiday.  I am really looking forward to it as I have never had regular lessons from anyone before having always preferred to compete and just get on with it.   Probably only had about a dozen lessons in as many years.

It will be useful to know where I am going wrong and get some constructive criticism.  He will also ride my horse for me if I ask him to.


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## ester (28 July 2015)

I don't think anyone has verbally abused you, they would have been banned. 

I think they have mostly suggested they wouldn't be doing the same as you were.


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## ljohnsonsj (28 July 2015)

applecart14 said:



			He can do changes on the flat as I explained twice, so its nothing to do with the 'adrenalin' of jumping.  As for 'rushing' he is 18 years of age??  He can do walk to canter, canter to walk, counter canter, and simple changes.  Always has been able to.  We've done elementary together.  
 It could be the quality of the canter and most probably me when it comes down to it not sitting straight maybe, or doing dressage in a GP saddle (as I have alwasy done up to elementary by the way).  But its not because he is in pain, that is laughable.  I'm not pressuring him into a party piece either..... weird your outlook on things...... but still.  At least your reply was more sensible than the others... by a slim margin.

Do you know what I really can't be bothered to come on this forum again.  I've been on about three times in the last few weeks, but I find the company tedious and the replies nonsensical, predictable and very inaccurate.

Thanks for giving me 'permission' to ride my horse Samsbilly.  I asked for a sensible solution to a sensible question, not people who like to think they are vets with no knowledge of my horse giving their opinions about trash.  Or those that like to think they are more qualified than my vets, plenty of those on here who think I should change my vet, have my horse put to sleep, retire him and everything in between.

Like I say, we all have a hoot anyway.  Those that know Bailey find it very funny.
		
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Slightly rude reply to a genuine answer. Hardly surprising that you aren't getting offered any other answers.


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## bonny (28 July 2015)

Slightly rude ?


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## Possum (28 July 2015)

Why do you only school for 30 mins? Is that 5 mins warm up, 20 mins schooling then 5 mins cool down? Particularly when working specifically on something that's been a bit sticky I'd say I spend at least 15/20 mins getting them really relaxed, supple, through and attentive before thinking about picking them up properly and asking for real work - you might just be asking a bit quick...

And I'm sorry, but saying that my original reply was 'more sensible than the others by a slim margin' is offensive and uncalled for,  though admittedly far less offensive than you have been to others who have replied.  I have no interest at all in the issues you have with people from your other threads, but with maybe one exception the only person dealing out insults on this thread is you, and you've been downright rude to everyone who made a suggestion. I hope that you manage to sort things out with your horse, but you really do need to wind your neck in else you roundly deserve any backlash you get.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (29 July 2015)

applecart14 said:



			I didn't claim I knew you I claimed I knew Princess Sparkle (FB).
		
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and this makes a difference because? i would be saying the same face to face so not sure why its relevant.


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## blackhor2e (29 July 2015)

I think the best reply I can give after reading this 'interesting' thread is that most horses have a better rein, my horse is much stronger on the left so can do changes better left to right than right to left. A simple pole on the ground may help with the issue and try not to make it an issue, if he does it once and does it well, give him lots of pats and finish the exercise, move onto something else. There are lots of different 'lateral' exercises you can do to help a horse's flexibility which may improve his willingness and ability to do what you are asking. I'm purposely not commenting on the horse's physical health as I don't know him and certainly wouldn't cast judgement on a horse I have never seen.


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## Fuzzypuff (29 July 2015)

Possum said:



			Why do you only school for 30 mins? Is that 5 mins warm up, 20 mins schooling then 5 mins cool down? Particularly when working specifically on something that's been a bit sticky I'd say I spend at least 15/20 mins getting them really relaxed, supple, through and attentive before thinking about picking them up properly and asking for real work - you might just be asking a bit quick...
		
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Agree with this. My horse has no pre-existing issues, is fit, healthy and strong, currently competing Medium. He does 10 mins walk on a loose rein, followed by at least 10 mins of stretch in trot and canter (underpowered), then 5 or so mins of lateral work in walk (exercises similar to this: http://horsetalk.co.nz/2015/02/04/help-horse-kissing-spine-goodbye/). So that is 20-25 mins of work before we even start "proper" trot/canter in a working outline. There is then a further warm-up period of lateral work etc. before we move on to collection work and flying changes. At the end he does trot stretch 5-10 mins followed by at least 10 mins walking off. 

Even the oldie that I ride at the weekend does more than 30 mins, by the time that he has done his walk warmup and cool down which takes 20 mins alone.


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## applecart14 (29 July 2015)

Fuzzypuff said:



			Agree with this. My horse has no pre-existing issues, is fit, healthy and strong, currently competing Medium. He does 10 mins walk on a loose rein, followed by at least 10 mins of stretch in trot and canter (underpowered), then 5 or so mins of lateral work in walk (exercises similar to this: http://horsetalk.co.nz/2015/02/04/help-horse-kissing-spine-goodbye/). So that is 20-25 mins of work before we even start "proper" trot/canter in a working outline. There is then a further warm-up period of lateral work etc. before we move on to collection work and flying changes. At the end he does trot stretch 5-10 mins followed by at least 10 mins walking off. 

Even the oldie that I ride at the weekend does more than 30 mins, by the time that he has done his walk warmup and cool down which takes 20 mins alone.
		
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If I rode him for more than 30 mins I would get slated.  If I ride him for less than 30 mins I get slated.  If I ride him at all I get slated.  If I don't ride him at all I get slated.  If I get the vet out I get slated. If I don't get the vet out I get slated.  If I comment on here about his problems I get told I'm cruel.  If I don't post on here about his problems I am accused of being misleading.

In essence I can't really win no matter what i do or say.  You say I am being rude but ask yourself this. If you were told to have your horse pts or retired or to change your vets by people that have never met you or the horse would YOU really react any differently?

If you answer that honestly you wont be acting far differently from me.  Those that can't answer this question honestly should really stop sitting in judgement.

The horse always does what I want him to do.  When he doesn't I spend longer working on any 'problem' areas but this is very rare.  He always tries hard and enjoys his sessions, mainly because I don't go over the same thing again and again and again.  I spend 20 mins building a grid and then go over it about four times.  There is no need to keep doing the same thing over and over. I find I get better work out of him this way.


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## Goldenstar (29 July 2015)

Folks I find my enjoyment of the forum is enhanced by ignoring OP 's threads I recommend it as a course of action ,she can then post her questions and provide the answers then everyone's happy.


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## KautoStar1 (29 July 2015)

applecart14 said:



			In essence I can't really win no matter what i do or say.  You say I am being rude but ask yourself this. If you were told to have your horse pts or retired or to change your vets by people that have never met you or the horse would YOU really react any differently?

If you answer that honestly you wont be acting far differently from me.  Those that can't answer this question honestly should really stop sitting in judgement.

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Well I can honestly hand on heart say I would never react like you do.  I would never dream of being so rude or aggressive, even if I felt aggrieved !


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## KautoStar1 (29 July 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Folks I find my enjoyment of the forum is enhanced by ignoring OP 's threads I recommend it as a course of action ,she can then post her questions and provide the answers then everyone's happy.
		
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its good isn't it


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## ester (29 July 2015)

I would think >30 mins more normal and probably better for him, especially when asking him to do more complicated moves I don't think anyone has ever suggested a slating if he were doing more than 30 minutes - thought the conversations I do remember off hand he had recently been lame again and was only going round the edge of the arena for x minutes anyway. But more than in the round they would do less with him overall IF he were theirs.

Frank is 22 and a bit wonky on one side and is schooled once a week. He does about 20 minutes warm up on a longer rein before I ask for any sideways or proper up togetherness. I feel that one good session a week is better for him because I can then expect him to work his well warmed muscles properly to keep him as strong and supple as possible but that once a week suffices (he might get one lunge too), the other 4 days he hacks as far as I have time for as a great believer in straight lines on non-school surfaces.

GS I do find it difficult when I think others might think that after his injuries/issues the rehab and subsequent work this horse now does is standard/usual/the best plan for their longevity. I maybe need some tips .


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## Swirlymurphy (29 July 2015)

The only thing I would say is that if you don't want people to comment because they don't know the horse, have never seen the horse and have never met you, then why on earth are you asking for advice on the forum?  By its very nature you are seeking advice from unknown people.  

If you are happy with your vet and your local trainers/advisers, then I would steer well clear of the forum and ask the people on the ground who know you and the horse.


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## merlinsquest (29 July 2015)

Slightly off topic but reading some of these posts, am I the only one that schools for 30-40 minutes without a 20 minute warm up in walk & can do good clean changes but not counter canter or simple change?? We can shoulder in/leg yield & have the beginnings of half pass as my SJ coach is very hot on the flat work & being able to manoeuvre the horse & having it bendy & supple. We do mainly show jump, with the odd combined training for a bit of variety so not competitive dressage at a high level, achieving 70%+ at prelim. We had a "proper" dressage lesson recently with a GP rider & she was complimentary about my mare's way of going & said the changes would get a 7 or 8 in a test, so just my musings really but does all the other stuff have to be done? If the OP wants to ride changes but can't do counter canter, does it matter?


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## Possum (29 July 2015)

merlinsquest said:



			Slightly off topic but reading some of these posts, am I the only one that schools for 30-40 minutes without a 20 minute warm up in walk & can do good clean changes but not counter canter or simple change?? We can shoulder in/leg yield & have the beginnings of half pass as my SJ coach is very hot on the flat work & being able to manoeuvre the horse & having it bendy & supple. We do mainly show jump, with the odd combined training for a bit of variety so not competitive dressage at a high level, achieving 70%+ at prelim. We had a "proper" dressage lesson recently with a GP rider & she was complimentary about my mare's way of going & said the changes would get a 7 or 8 in a test, so just my musings really but does all the other stuff have to be done? If the OP wants to ride changes but can't do counter canter, does it matter?
		
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It is interesting, isn't it? Just my opinion, but I think so much depends on your horse's natural way of going, I had a sec D that thought beautiful canter pirouettes and passage were a doddle, but really struggled to get his head round some of the other lateral work. Equally I've ridden horses that would ping in changes at the drop of a hat. If they're easy for your horse then I agree you don't need a lot of the rigmarole first, but for one who finds it more difficult or is just learning then you need to do a lot more set up .


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## merlinsquest (29 July 2015)

Yes, fair point though I do think that dressage riders make the changes more kind of mystical & difficult whereas show jumpers just teach them as a matter of course. However we don't need to do them precisely at a marker just so long as they change. My mare learned at 5, I just cantered across the diagonal, gave the aids & tapped the hind leg with a schooling whip & she quickly learned to step through & change, sometimes a bit wildly but they are now balanced & true. I have noticed too that we do a kind of light seat thing in the change unlike dressage riders, so interesting all the different ways & means. A dressage friend once rode her when I was working, she rang me in hysterics saying that the mare had "refused" to go for a hack, obviously very cross then at not wandering along on the buckle, so she rode in the school, then couldn't find the canter button which when located was from the inside leg & a light seat, she then kept getting either a) walk to canter & no trot or b) random flying changes. She said she was racing round the school in trot going "& canteeeerrr" we still laugh about it now...


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## ester (29 July 2015)

I only do because mine is old(ish) -22 and a bit stiff on one side, oh and welsh - so if you ask too early you tend to just get tense and no forwardsness. His auto reaction to sideways is to slow down so you need to get him swinging a bit first if that makes sense. IIRC the OPs horse is not 'young' either. 
Frank doesn't know changes as he didn't start doing proper schooling until quite late in life having mostly been a pony club jumper and we purposely didn't teach them as we thought we might not ever get counter canter again . We have a skip over some poles sometimes though because he finds that rather jolly .


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## nato (29 July 2015)

I find this interesting - again from a jumpers perspective  My mare will change until the cows come home but ask her to move sideways off your leg and we get the ultimate hissy fit! HOWEVER - ask her to change from a deep seat, at a specific marker, and to stay truly round in self carraige - nope! She will change but we have a higher head carriage for jumping, and then she likes to go for a little run when she's changed 

It really is so different with dressage - accuracy is everything. As I am learning slowly but not so surely as I attempt to venture into the dressage space!


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## Leo Walker (29 July 2015)

My 5yr old HW very slightly croup high cob will offer changes if hes jumping. Hes just been away for schooling and we all agreed that he wasnt strong enough for much if any work to be done on the canter. Hes been schooled in walk and trot, hacked out and done some jumping to get his brain thinking forward. He is completely sound and the most even and straight horse my osteo has ever seen. He doesnt, and wont, canter in the school for a few months. While he could, it wont be asked of him. 

My other horse, well not mine as hes been gifted to his loaner, but who by all accounts is sounder than yours is a happy hack. He does the odd lesson in the school with his new mum, and occasionally pops a small cross pole. Hes only ever asked for less than he can do. I cant imagine a scenario where he would be asked to work outside of his comfort zone

Yours has hind limb problems. The vet says hes fine, and thats great!  But maybe now is the time to keep him well within his comfort zone? You both like to jump, so maybe hacking to keep him fit and supple and then the odd SJing competition? Asking your average RC allrounder to do clean flying changes is a big ask, even for a young fit horse! In fact for most leisure horses. I cant think of many local level horses who can do a clean change. Its such a big ask of them to take the weight back and produce a good enough quality canter to do it, that most RC riders wouldnt know or be able to do it, so its no reflection on you


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## AandK (30 July 2015)

Swirlymurphy said:



			The only thing I would say is that if you don't want people to comment because they don't know the horse, have never seen the horse and have never met you, then why on earth are you asking for advice on the forum?  By its very nature you are seeking advice from unknown people.  

If you are happy with your vet and your local trainers/advisers, then I would steer well clear of the forum and ask the people on the ground who know you and the horse.
		
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Agree 100%.


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## applecart14 (31 July 2015)

ester said:



			- thought the conversations I do remember off hand he had recently been lame again and was only going round the edge of the arena for x minutes anyway. But more than in the round they would do less with him overall IF he were theirs.

.
		
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Incorrect, Ester the horse has been back in full work for a number of weeks now after I took him to the vet when he struck his leg into the other leg in the field and it swelled and was hot. I assumed an infection but I was told a couple of days off and he would be okay and antibiotics weren't needed.

Was thinking about the comment someone put on here yesterday about the horse being able to perform flying changes whilst the jumps are out in the menage because the adrenalin is going through him so he's not in pain!!  Last night my partner came up and gave me a hand and built a little course for me, the horse was jumping really well. As we stood waiting for him to put the jumps up I looked at Bailey and laughed.  His bottom lip was drooping and he was practically asleep where he stood.  I said to my boyfriend "you can see the adrenalin is pumping through him". 

Like I say I don't care what you think about the way I look after my horse.  I only answer to two people, that of my yard owner and my vet in respect of my horse.  Those are the two people who I have the most amount of respect for and who know my horse as well as I do.  But i just wanted some tips about flying changes.

And like I have said before I came on here to ask a simple question about what I may possibly be doing wrong that my horse won't change somedays but does others.  It could be a hundred and one things but everyone immediately jumps down my throat and says its because the horse is in pain.  If Bailey was in pain he wouldn't jump, believe me he would be knocking them down, running out or refusing the jumps. I know my horse and I know what he does when he has a physcial problem previously and how he acts.  The horse is fit, healthy and happy in his work.  He wouldn't be forward going with his ears pricked and interested in life if he was in pain, nor would he be careering around the field when he's turned out - horses in pain move minimally and look down and depressed and lack lustre.   I didn't expect to be linched on here yet again.  I must lower my expectations in future as sadly I should have known better......

Frankie cob, thanks for your comments.  I hack out about three to four times a week and do a fair bit of hill work, and school one day.  I competed last approx a month ago in jumping and did one class.  I plan to go tomorrow and hire the school at my local riding club, and will go for a long hack Sunday.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (31 July 2015)

you show a total lack of understanding for how adrenalin works.

yes it can be that fired up, flight response,mode but equallly:

the horse knows he used to enjoy jumping, his will to want to jump and enjoy it means the adrenalin released from excitement at wanting to do it (for you) blocks the pain response.

flatwork he clearly finds a bit so/so and thus the pain is in the fore front of his mind.

in the same way my knee is absolute agony at the moment and just walking round the office it drives me mad, but will it stop me riding, no it wont.

unfortunately horses cant make the same choice to carry on as they dont understand the concept of the continued damage it will do and the repercussions of that.

you need to be very clear in not putting human understanding on to their actions(that are based on a far more simple mind).

the horse has had many injuries. is getting older. all the signs add up to a pain response.

you have a duty of care to protect him from himself, just because he CAN do it, the question really is should he.................................


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## ester (31 July 2015)

applecart14 said:



			Incorrect, Ester the horse has been back in full work for a number of weeks now after I took him to the vet when he struck his leg into the other leg in the field and it swelled and was hot. I assumed an infection but I was told a couple of days off and he would be okay and antibiotics weren't needed.
		
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I'm not incorrect, If you read my sentence properly I was talking about a conversation I remember about people supposedly having a go at you/you say told you >30 mins was too much, I never said how long ago that was, just that it was at a time when he had been lame recently so was not in full work.

And PS I completely agree with you re. adrenalin, I was amused how much more forwards and bouncy F was when we were showing in the workers ring the other weekend compared to a flat ring, even when not doing the jumps.


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## applecart14 (31 July 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			you show a total lack of understanding for how adrenalin works.

yes it can be that fired up, flight response,mode but equallly:

the horse knows he used to enjoy jumping, his will to want to jump and enjoy it means the adrenalin released from excitement at wanting to do it (for you) blocks the pain response.

flatwork he clearly finds a bit so/so and thus the pain is in the fore front of his mind.

in the same way my knee is absolute agony at the moment and just walking round the office it drives me mad, but will it stop me riding, no it wont.

unfortunately horses cant make the same choice to carry on as they dont understand the concept of the continued damage it will do and the repercussions of that.

you need to be very clear in not putting human understanding on to their actions(that are based on a far more simple mind).

the horse has had many injuries. is getting older. all the signs add up to a pain response.

you have a duty of care to protect him from himself, just because he CAN do it, the question really is should he.................................
		
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Princess Sparkle you would argue with yourself in an empty room.

Isn't it true what I've heard that allegedly all the horses in your possession having rearing issues??

And I don't remember you complaining when you took money off me once for a lesson on my poor crippled pony 

I'm not going to persist with this nonsense anymore, because this is just what it is and I have more important things to do with my time.


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## Fuzzypuff (31 July 2015)

applecart14 said:



			Like I say I don't care what you think about the way I look after my horse.  I only answer to two people, that of my yard owner and my vet in respect of my horse.  Those are the two people who I have the most amount of respect for and who know my horse as well as I do.  But i just wanted some tips about flying changes.
		
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I don't know you and I have only once I think responded to one of your threads (this one), but I find this really sad. I can't comment on whether your hrose is/isn't sound or in pain however I don't think valuing the opinion of 2 people on your horse is doing you or your horse any favours. People do get it wrong, that is part of being human, and personally I think the best way is to keep an open mind and keep questioning. Like I said in my previous post, my horse has no pre-existing issues, however any time we stumble upon issues in his work, or he isn't quite like himself, I take the time to ask myself what could be causing it - could he be feeling unwell in some way, is his diet not right, does he need a change in management etc? This way I feel I am always doing the best for my horse. Of course I am not going to take the opinions of lots of people who have never met my horse over my vet, however I can still learn a lot from others and take on board their suggestions and investigate them, rather than just shouting at everyone for being idiots. 

There are lots of possible reasons as to why your horse might be finding flying changes difficult in this context, and it's your job to tick them off to find out why it is happening so you can solve the problem. 

Also, I am not saying your horse is lame, but in many horses lameness starts off as a small performance issue in one area of the horse's work before getting worse and showing as obvious lameness. Personally if I were you I would be double-checking I am doing everything correctly on the physical/management front to make sure I had covered all bases before moving on to treating it as a schooling issue.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (31 July 2015)

applecart14 said:



			Princess Sparkle you would argue with yourself in an empty room.

Isn't it true what I've heard that allegedly all the horses in your possession having rearing issues??

And I don't remember you complaining when you took money off me once for a lesson on my poor crippled pony 

I'm not going to persist with this nonsense anymore, because this is just what it is and I have more important things to do with my time.
		
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i know you, by name and sight but dont recall teaching you. i did teach many people on that yard but not you-you are mistaken.

your memory also fails you on other points-Pea(RIP) did indeed rear for england, as he had done since a 2yo on the race yard. However he had every test,scan,x ray available, some repeated twice or even 3 times and showed no signs of injury or pain (as painkillers also had no impact on him). so in no way comparable to Bailey.

The only other horses we have on the yard are livery pony(doesnt rear) Bruce (never reared in his life with us-15years) Fig(never reared) and Goofy(too soon at 3yo to say never rears but hasnt so far).


so perhaps you need to check a few things as you seem very confused


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## ester (31 July 2015)

I was struggling to imagine bruce bothering to get in the air  , or if he did he would look at himself and think gosh how rude!


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## PolarSkye (31 July 2015)

Fuzzypuff said:



			in many horses lameness starts off as a small performance issue in one area of the horse's work before getting worse and showing as obvious lameness. Personally if I were you I would be double-checking I am doing everything correctly on the physical/management front to make sure I had covered all bases before moving on to treating it as a schooling issue.
		
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I completely agree with this . . . horses tell us they can't cope in so many subtle ways and too often we miss the early signs because they are so subtle.  I just recently retired my beloved boy due to back problems - he became so uncomfortable under saddle with a rider on top that it was blatantly obvious - and at first it seemed as though it had happened pretty much overnight . . . but when I look back over the past six/seven months, there were tiny little niggling signs there that all was not well . . . really tiny . . . just little moments of resistance which in a quirky, opinionated, tricky horse like him were all too easy to pass off as behavioural.  I wish I'd picked his whispers up before he had to shout . . . and I'll do my very best to make sure the remainder of his life is as comfy as I can make it.

P


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## PolarSkye (31 July 2015)

ester said:



			I was struggling to imagine bruce bothering to get in the air  , or if he did he would look at himself and think gosh how rude!
		
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Hahahaha . . . I'm afraid Kali was never so polite . . . he loved showing everyone his belly .

P


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## KautoStar1 (31 July 2015)

The trouble is FuzzyPuff,  OP has posted in detail on many many occasions about her horses medical history, of which much is lameness related, so forum members do feel they have a good understanding of his history, despite OP&#8217;s claims that we don&#8217;t know anything about him.  We know what she tells us.    Coupled with that, the horse is in his late teens and OP does not seem to have changed her management of this horse to take into account his age and physical condition.  Even if he is sound now, she seems oblivious of the lasting damage these injuries have likely had on him and continues, it would appear, to work him as if he were a much younger horse without any previous issues.  Again, this is based on what she tells us she does with him, not random assumptions.   She posts and then doesn&#8217;t like the responses she gets because they clearly don&#8217;t fit in with what she wants to hear.  When questions are raised, her immediate response is to start &#8216;shouting&#8217;, calling people names (we&#8217;ve been called all sorts, it&#8217;s quite comical really) and now throwing accusations around, as directed at Prince33Sp4rkle.

I am sure some people have suggested she put her horse to sleep in the past and clearly this isn&#8217;t what OP wants to hear or do (understandably) and most likely not what her vet has suggested either but for most of us who have commented, its simply to say why don&#8217;t you give the horse a quieter life now, not retirement, just slow down a bit.  OP&#8217;s desire to go out jumping, long fun rides, dressage etc etc seems to override the need to revaluate her horses management.  

I don&#8217;t doubt she loves her horse very very much and has spent much money to treat his various ailments but she continues to post about his problems and her inflammatory behaviour on this forum is not welcomed by most of us.  Its bad enough that she &#8216;shouts&#8217; at people, like me, who have commented before, but she was attacking Possum for her response, which as far as I could tell, was made without any previous knowledge of the horses issues, yet she got a lambasting.  This sort of behaviour does nothing to endear her to the rest of the forum, who in most part, having been willing to make perfectly reasonable suggestions.     I guess OP will alienate herself from most people over time, in real life and here, if she continues in this way.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (31 July 2015)

perish the though ester! the most violent reaction you are likely to get from Bruce is a sharply raised eyebrow!

bless his cotton socks, he is taking me for a cheeky hack on sun


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## applecart14 (31 July 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			However he had every test,scan,x ray available, some repeated twice or even 3 times and showed no signs of injury or pain (as painkillers also had no impact on him). so in no way comparable to Bailey.

QUOTE]

Not sure what you mean by 'in no way comparable to Bailey'.  I've had about £12K spent on Bailey over the years, mainly with colics and his spavin treatment which started with numerous xrays, joint injections, went on to Tildren, and ended at very sucessfully at ethanol fusion (with more xrays). And at any time I feel he needs the vet he has one and more often at not it isn't even necessary (like the last injury that when he struck into himself in the field) and the vet wasn't even necessary (as it turned out).  So not sure why you don't think my horse hasn't had the best veterinary attention throughout the eleven years I've had him.  He has  a farrier every five weeks, a physio twice a year (more if necessary) dentist every ten months, and saddle fitter every year.  He is ridden for approx 5-6 hours a week, most often less than this recently due to commitments outside the yard. He is never pushed, is bandaged before schooling/jumping, ice vibed before riding and after schooling and is constantly under scrutiny for lumps/bumps/heat/any discomfort.  he goes jumping about once in a blue moon and as for 'long fun rides' I don't think that ten or twelve miles is long to a horse. I've not been on one so far this year but I'm planning on doing a 12 mile in the next couple of weeks (maybe the RSPCA should be notified for the loooooong distance we are planning to walk!!) Dressage he's done two comps in about six weeks.  Last time he jumped was about four weeks ago. Lets get it into perspective.

Oh and the vet has given him the all clear a while ago to resume jumping/dressage - SO DO YOU REQUIRE IT WRITTEN IN BLOOD OR SOMETHING AND SENT TO YOU RECORDED DELIVERY?  

Just because people on here don't post about their horses ailments and injuries doesn't mean they don't have them, just remember that.  There are horses that I see on a regular basis that are unsound, clearly uncomfortable, refusing fences, not going forward with their rider, looking miserable as sin.  I know that doesn't make it right, but it happens all the time.  My horse is not one of these and never has been for that matter.  

And I got my information off someone else about your rearing horses.  And yes you did teach me, I have a photo of you in the background when you did a clinic at ours and you can quite clearly see Bailey and me.

I can assure you there is no confusion.

I really love my hrose with all my might and really get upset and annoyed at peoples sad comments on this forum.  But then that's what some people on this forum seem to enjoy.

I'm not commenting on these ignorant and nasty replies anymore.  I actually have a LIFE!!!  My O/H actually suggested taking a video last night as he looked so well and posting it on here, but I know if you look really, really, really closesly there is bound to be something you can find, the tiniest bit of stiffness maybe that nobody else other than the vultures on this forum would notice.  So I know I will get 'picked apart' for that, that is why I don't bother doing this.  I also don't feel why I have to justify myself to a load of nasty posters.
		
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## Goldenstar (31 July 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			perish the though ester! the most violent reaction you are likely to get from Bruce is a sharply raised eyebrow!

bless his cotton socks, he is taking me for a cheeky hack on sun 

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How's the shoulder btw ?


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## KautoStar1 (31 July 2015)

earlier this morning you said he jumped last night, but now its 4 weeks ago.   So which is it ?


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## KautoStar1 (31 July 2015)

I'm not commenting on these ignorant and nasty replies anymore.  I actually have a LIFE!!!  My O/H actually suggested taking a video last night as he looked so well and posting it on here, but I know if you look really, really, really closesly there is bound to be something you can find, the tiniest bit of stiffness maybe that nobody else other than the vultures on this forum would notice.  So I know I will get 'picked apart' for that, that is why I don't bother doing this.  I also don't feel why I have to justify myself to a load of nasty posters.[/QUOTE]


So why do you start threads then ?


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## ester (31 July 2015)

I think PS was suggesting CS was not comparable to bailey as he had no sign of injury or lameness issues, Bailey has had both. 

I've said before Frank isn't 'right' but it is age related stiffness/arthritis whose exact nature and location remains undiagnosed because myself and vet agreed we wouldn't be injecting any specific joints for him atm. I would happily post a before and after warm up video on here because people would see what I see if they picked him apart but am happy with what he does (as is the vet) and so is he so there wouldn't be any reason to post about it. If you are confident about what you are doing with your horse there isn't really any reason to worry about what anyone else thinks in real life or on a forum.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (31 July 2015)

yes well done ester-Bailey has been diagnosed with several issues, CS had no such issues diagnosed.

im really honestly not sure what the issue with all these rearing horses is? whoever it is(they either dont exist or are feeding you a load of tosh) will only ever have seen CS read because none of the other 3 do? the mare i had before CS did rear(we are going back 6/7 years now) but also used to bronc, lie down and run in to things and died of a brain tumour.

before that i had a big warmblood who didnt really enjoy dressage and went off to do PC stuff. Before that I had Bruce and a SJ bred mare who fell over in the field, injured her neck and went off to hack.

so where are all these mystery rearing horses?

i cant see pics at work computer so no idea if you have posted it already but if not-please post the pic showing me teaching you? not in the background(aka teaching someone else) but actually interacting with you. Its possible, as i dont remember every person i teach at every clinic but i think i would remember you 

shoulder is really actually very good. Im mucking out, sweeping, rugging, can carry small buckets of water and about half a bag of feed. Aiming to back on clients horses for 20mins at a time end of next week


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## eggs (31 July 2015)

I can't comment on Applecart or Bailey as I don't know either and to the best of my knowledge have never seen them.

My only comment is that one of my horses has a very natural - and good quality - change when jumping, cantering loose in the field or when she decides that counter canter is too much hard work!  When it came to teaching her 'dressage' changes she had a whole repetoire of tricks - changing late behind, going disunited, going before the aid, going after the aid, changing short behind, hopping behind, etc.  I think most of it was stress related but we didn't make an issue of it popped a couple in now and again but just tried to ensure to keep the quality in the canter.  The person who taught her changes competes at Inter 1 and has plenty of experience teaching changes to a horse.  There are various exercises which can help and different exercises work for different horses but your instructor would be best placed to select the appropriate exercise.

My mare is being aimed at GP so she needed to learn changes but another of my horses is not going to complete above medium so the fact that he changes easily on one rein but not the other is not an issue.  He changes fine when jumping when he is off the bridle and from a young horse was perfectly happy to canter round disunited with no desire to change.


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## applecart14 (31 July 2015)

KautoStar1 said:



			earlier this morning you said he jumped last night, but now its 4 weeks ago.   So which is it ?
		
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For goodness sake.  I meant competetively.  He last jumped at Onley Grounds doing a 2ft 6 course that was up to 2ft 9 in the second part.  We came 5th out of 35 in the class.  It was his first time out since February (since his initial injury).  this was AFTER the vet has passed him fit to jump.

Admittedly we did have to hand back our rosette when the organisers found I'd stuffed a stick of dynamite up his arse to make him go round the course (because he was in so much pain) but at least we were fast in the jump off


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## applecart14 (31 July 2015)

KautoStar1 said:



			I'm not commenting on these ignorant and nasty replies anymore.  I actually have a LIFE!!!  My O/H actually suggested taking a video last night as he looked so well and posting it on here, but I know if you look really, really, really closesly there is bound to be something you can find, the tiniest bit of stiffness maybe that nobody else other than the vultures on this forum would notice.  So I know I will get 'picked apart' for that, that is why I don't bother doing this.  I also don't feel why I have to justify myself to a load of nasty posters.
		
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So why do you start threads then ?[/QUOTE]

FFS!!!!  - to ask advice about flying changes!!  Not to be slated to death.  READ MY OP.  It was a tongue in cheek 'my horse does this....scenario'.    It was a simple straight forward question and I think I remember asking at the very start does anyone else's horse find it easier to do changes when there are jumps in the school as opposed to when there are not jumps in the school.  I gave lots of examples when he would do changes, and lots of examples of when he wouldn't do changes.  Incidently he changes in the field, when out hacking.  What can people read it to that I wonder?  Answers on the back of a postcard please.

Why don't you just bring back hanging and be done with it.....
Do I have to put the disclaimer 'no nasty, uncessesary, rude, thoughtless, ignorant, or silly replies' on all my posts in future? I thought it was just common sense that people wouldn't turn such an innocent question into a witch hunt.  

What is the matter with people????


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## applecart14 (31 July 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			yes well done ester-Bailey has been diagnosed with several issues, CS had no such issues diagnosed.
		
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Oh please pass me the sick bucket.  Now I know how a deer feels being stalked by a pack of hyenas. 

Princess Sparkle I have sent you a PM.  up to you if you want to take me up on it.


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## Farma (31 July 2015)

OP I actually feel quite sorry for you reading this thread, use your energy to get shopping for a good trainer and work with them and your vet to improve your schooling work at home, build yourself a trusted team, if you want to post a video I am sure there will be lots of helpful replies on what the next steps are and why you might be having the difficulty you are. Good luck with your horse either way x


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (31 July 2015)

applecart14 said:



			Oh please pass me the sick bucket.  Now I know how a deer feels being stalked by a pack of hyenas. 

Princess Sparkle I have sent you a PM.  up to you if you want to take me up on it.
		
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i have no wish to take you up on said offer,none at all.


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## rara007 (31 July 2015)

Ohhh I want to know the offer and can we watch? You taking it outside  ?


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## Goldenstar (31 July 2015)

Back to changes 
Straightness by that I mean  the lack of it is the main reason horses struggle more with one change than the other .
A horse that's consistent in the counter canter , straight in both canter walk transitions , is easy to ride into the collection and will let you change flexion easily and subtly and evenly both ways will do a change with out difficultly.
Changes are about good correct basics .


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## Dobermonkey (31 July 2015)

Just a thought. You said you have his saddle checked once a year.  Maybe worth getting it done again (if not recent) ?  Could be pinching on one side making it uncomfortable for him?  Something to rule out perhaps


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## ester (31 July 2015)

applecart14 said:



			For goodness sake.  I meant competetively.  He last jumped at Onley Grounds doing a 2ft 6 course that was up to 2ft 9 in the second part.  We came 5th out of 35 in the class.  It was his first time out since February (since his initial injury).  this was AFTER the vet has passed him fit to jump.

Admittedly we did have to hand back our rosette when the organisers found I'd stuffed a stick of dynamite up his arse to make him go round the course (because he was in so much pain) but at least we were fast in the jump off 

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Surely jumping is jumping regardless of where it is?!


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## Tiarella (1 August 2015)

I don't normally comment on hho any more because I have no time. But having seen your horse compete many times before I'd like to think I have a pretty good judgment on him. At 18 with various soundness issues he is not likely to improve within his ridden work. By all means try and crack on with changes etc but there is a big possibility you'll arrive at the yard one day to a horse you'll have to retire. If it was me, I'd allow him to enjoy life whilst he can without any pressure to improve and just be greatful you have a horse that you can still ride at a low level rather than a field ornament.


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## applecart14 (3 August 2015)

ester said:



			Surely jumping is jumping regardless of where it is?!
		
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Ester

KautoStar was contradicting me by saying that I had stated I hadn't jumped the horse for four weeks but then went on to say that I'd jumped him the night before.  I was clearing up the misunderstanding.  There is no harm in jumping my horse, the vet has passed him fit to jump.

I am sorry but I am not prepared to keep commenting on this post.  I asked a simple question which required a simple answer and I did not at any stage ask to be lambasted yet again.  There is just no need for it.  I will post a video at some stage just as soon as I can set up my camera.  I don't see why I should have to do this  but I will do so as I am sick of all the nasty comments all the time.  If my horse has to be retired at some stage then so be it but at the moment i am keeping him fit, happy and healthy with with feed, turnout, health checks and a workload to suit his requirements. I can't do much more, although some of you clearly think you are God and your horses have never had a problem in their life......or is it that you don't mention it, but keep quiet instead.  You know all horses have health problems, there are some horses that have  problems every month of their life, just because they are not talked about or discussed on this forum doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  It does, but those owners just keep their gob shut.

Thank you for those people that have answered my post in a normal manner, your comments have been taken into account and I am grateful to you.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 August 2015)

instead of a video of him jumping(when we have already all stated his adrenalin will be up and will possibly over ride the pain)...why not post a vid of him in walk trot and canter on both reins on the lunge. no tack no rider no gadgets-the best way to assess soundness...................or would that we showing too much...............


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## ester (3 August 2015)

I know why you were saying that, you seem to constantly misinterpret the point I am making, I just don't understand when you said you hadn't jumped the horse for 4 weeks, if I was telling someone when I last jumped my horse I wouldn't only be including competitions. 

and if you aren't prepared to comment why are you commenting 2 days after the last post and reviving the thread? Nothing with horses ever has a simple answer there is always a list of possible reasons why, and then another list of the possible approaches to changing it! I think at the very least myself, Auslander and PolarSkye have all talked about our horses problems both on your threads and elsewhere - Aus did a whole post on Alf only yesterday!


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## KautoStar1 (3 August 2015)

I wasn't contradicting you at all. You did that by yourself !!   I was asking when it was that you last jumped as one post it was 4 weeks ago and then the next it was last night.  And as Ester says, jumping is jumping whether at home or at a show, the physical effects are the same.

But the point people are making, which you are failing to grasp, is that given your horses age and physical ailments, this is probably the reason he is finding changes hard.  And why, given his history, do you feel the need to keep asking him to do something that isn't actually necessary for his level of work.   I think that's the bit you missed.

And yes of course we all have horses with issues at some time or another, but most of us don't feel the need to report on here over and over again.

personally I see no reason for you to post a video because potentially it will cause further comment, which you don't like, which will cause you to fly off the handle and start screaming at people and calling them muppets and the like.


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## Auslander (3 August 2015)

ester said:



			Aus did a whole post on Alf only yesterday!
		
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I did. Still waiting to be told off because he is BTV in one of the pics, and has his mouth open in the second!!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 August 2015)

Auslander said:



			I did. Still waiting to be told off because he is BTV in one of the pics, and has his mouth open in the second!!
		
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he's in pain...........................................send him to me!


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## Auslander (3 August 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			he's in pain...........................................send him to me!
		
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I don't think Vicki would be very pleased! She wants him!


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## ester (3 August 2015)

I'm trying to remember if PS actually owns any pink though....


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 August 2015)

vicky will beat me on pink, shes got pink jins!


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## Auslander (3 August 2015)

Alf doesn't like pink. Vicki rode him for 20 mins before she put the pink on him, in case he expressed his disgust by trying to buck her off!


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