# Planning application, dog breeding kennels



## puppyalert (21 December 2011)

URGENT NOTIFICATION
PLANNING APPLICATION Number W/25841 

RETENTION OF USE OF FORMER AGRICULTURE BUILDINGS AS DOG BREEDING KENNELS.  PENPARC, LLANGYNIN, ST CLARES, CARMARTHENSHIRE, SA33 4BA. 

Carmarthenshire County Council Planning Department, Application Number W/25841. 
Here is a link to Carmarthenshire planning department where you can view the plans.http://online.carmarthenshire.gov.uk/eaccessv2/PlanningAppRefSearchResults.aspx

Objections to this application must be received by Carmarthenshire Planning Department by the 10th January 2011. The planning officer is Jonathon Locke who can be contacted on 01267 224867 email:  jglocke@carmarthenshire.gov.uk

The retrospective planning application submitted by the Elizabeth M Roberts of Penparc is for dog breeding kennels, they are already licensed by Carmarthenshire Public Protection Department for 107 breeding bitches and 17 stud dogs and have been for the past few years, yet planning permission was neither applied for by the applicant or asked for by the licensing officer when granting the licence. An Enforcement notice was served on the applicant Number W/ENF/05396 resulting in the applicant submitting the planning application.   

The applicant E M Roberts also has a working sheep farm at the same premises with 750 sheep as well as the dogs numbering 124 in total in addition litters of puppies.  The litters of puppies it is stated in the application are not sold direct to the public but are sold as trade on a wholesale basis with their transportation taking place once a fortnight. As well as the applicant there are two part-time workers employed on the site.  The12 month dog breeding licence (renewed annually) is current until August 2012.

The dog breeding kennels can be viewed on the application  plans, they are agriculture buildings, made of concrete and brick , the upper walls and roof with asbestos sheeting and profiled metal sheeting. The one window in Unit 1  is of brown PVC, and is reliant on artificial light, there are some sky lights for natural light but doors are solid and swing type, there are some exercise runs to be seen in photos. Unit 2 the whelping unit has 4 doors with a mesh grid on top of doors for natural light. 

The applicant replied on the application form when asked - 'Trade effluents and waste, as NO ' this should be answered with yes as some waste from dog breeding premises is classified as hazardous waste and needs to be disposed of correctly.

Remember objection to be effective need to be on planning issues as welfare issues are only a consideration and not a reason for refusal for a planning application.  Never the less it is important to place objections to these applications to enable Councils to see that the general public are not accepting of the commercialization of large scale dog breeding and the selling of puppies  through dealers and pet shops. Therefore it important to highlight and make objections to the Council when these applications are submitted by dog breeders.

Thank you for your co-operation.

Patricia
email: puppyalert@btinternet.com


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## CorvusCorax (21 December 2011)

107 breeding bitches and 17 stud dogs

Dogs numbering 124 in total in addition litters of puppies. The litters of puppies it is stated in the application are not sold direct to the public but are sold as trade on a wholesale basis with their transportation taking place once a fortnight. 

- I do wonder how some people sleep at night.


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## CAYLA (21 December 2011)

Fwarking hell thats is disgusting as if we don't have enough issues with bloody unwanted dogs and puppy farms


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## puppyalert (21 December 2011)

These premises do not have the highest number of dogs either have just fought with others one with 197 dogs. There are nearly 90 licensed dog breeders in Carmarthenshire alone many with dogs numbering in the hundreds.This is just one pebble in a very large ocean.


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## CorvusCorax (21 December 2011)

PMing you.


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## Dobiegirl (21 December 2011)

I seem to remember signing an epetition against this, it says by10 January, 2011 which has expired but their breeding licence is up for renewal in August 2012.

Was this passed and could  we bombard the council not to renew his breeding licence.


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## s4sugar (21 December 2011)

The way to stop this is for people to stop buying puppies from dealers.
No market, no puppy farming.


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## CorvusCorax (21 December 2011)

And if you buy out of a shed, from a yard where the puppy is brought to you and handed over, from a pet shop, from a car boot, from a small ad in the paper or an online ad selling multiple breeds of puppies (Google the phone number, simples!) then it has more than likely come from one of these operations 
Yes, you may think you've saved one from a puppy farm, but in handing over cash, hundreds more will fill its' place.


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## CAYLA (21 December 2011)

I have send an email, I wish I had those statistics re the area and the already established breeding, maybe others can include it in theirs. I also threatened to send an email to the local MP.
Would it be worth presenting such information the rescues/rspca/dogstrust and see if they would get on board? What else can be done?

And what S4sugar said....if the ignorant did not line the pockets of these money greedy morons then more puppies and whelping bitches would not suffer be churned out to line the pages of gum tree/pre loved the following year.


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## s4sugar (21 December 2011)

We need more derision of the idiots who support them.
Less of the "Aww you got a kyuuute puppy" and more of the "what sort of moron buys a puppy farm puppy"
There are going to be a lot of unsold puppies over the next few months but the dealers always seem to find buyers.
Why is this? Possibly because they tell the buyers what they want to hear and they can see lots of puppies & take one home.

Three Bassets under a year old handed in in as many weeks. (Plus one we helped to stay in her home) - all bought from dealers.


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## CAYLA (21 December 2011)

s4sugar said:



			We need more derision of the idiots who support them.
Less of the "Aww you got a kyuuute puppy" and more of the "what sort of moron buys a puppy farm puppy"
There are going to be a lot of unsold puppies over the next few months but the dealers always seem to find buyers.
Why is this? Possibly because they tell the buyers what they want to hear and they can see lots of puppies & take one home.

Three Bassets under a year old handed in in as many weeks. (Plus one we helped to stay in her home) - all bought from dealers.
		
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Agree^^^^ bassets must be a favourite/good seller with puppy farmers as every single one we have rehomed has also been from a puppy farm


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## Dobiegirl (21 December 2011)

I realise that educating the General public is right and proper but you are never going to stop people buying cute puppies. These places have to be shut down and I think what Cayla suggested contacting the RSPCA,Dogtrust,Many Tears to get behind this probabley would have more impact.

New legislation will come into effect in January 2012 to replace old style battery cages with new ones which give more movement, when you look at these kennels they are akin to battery cages for dogs. More legislation is needed for the protection of these dogs and we should harrass our MPs to get a change in the law.


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## CorvusCorax (21 December 2011)

Derision just tends to put people's backs up if they have already shelled out (people will get defensive if you call them fools and they realise they have been duped) and they will not listen to reasoned arguments a lot of the time.
But it would also help if people can point out blindingly obvious signs of a farmed puppy for those looking to buy?
Forewarned is forearmed and all that


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## CAYLA (21 December 2011)

Maybe a new forum in regard to educating people and giving them somewhere to go in regard to getting info about buying a new puppy/dog/rescue would help? steer them away from back street breeders and direct them to good rescues and responsible breeders? or a facebook page? or anything like this to help educate?


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## SusieT (21 December 2011)

'We need more derision of the idiots who support them.
Less of the "Aww you got a kyuuute puppy" and more of the "what sort of moron buys a puppy farm puppy"'
Do you really think that deriding someone wins them over to your cause?? It's exactly that which gets peoples backs up and makes them view all welfare organisations good and bad in a very negative light.
Ask where it comes from, say did they realise there can be big problems, poor mum dogs etc.-that will get through to far more people!


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## CorvusCorax (21 December 2011)

I was thinking more just jotting some points down on this thread 

But you're right, there should be a central point of information.
It's just where money and personalities are concerned, people's agendas and egos come in to play, not always in the best interests of the dogs or the buyers


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## s4sugar (21 December 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			I realise that educating the General public is right and proper but you are never going to stop people buying cute puppies. These places have to be shut down and I think what Cayla suggested contacting the RSPCA,Dogtrust,Many Tears to get behind this probabley would have more impact.

New legislation will come into effect in January 2012 to replace old style battery cages with new ones which give more movement, when you look at these kennels they are akin to battery cages for dogs. More legislation is needed for the protection of these dogs and we should harrass our MPs to get a change in the law.
		
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A lot of the impetus for the change to battery farms has come from media campaigns & public outcry.

Unfortunately whenever puppy farms are featured on TV it seems that more is made of how distressed the owners of sick puppies are rather than how can anyone else avoid the same experience.
How long has the slogan "make sure you see the puppy with it's mother" been around?

What would make more sense is a restriction of third party selling of puppies;- get rid of pet shop licences for puppies (& kittens) and all puppies to be microchipped at place of birth.
People typically do more research when buying a toaster than a puppy and the less scrupulous sellers are good at telling these novices what they want to hear.

eg Basset hounds only need a 20 minute walk once a day was on the instructions with one of the surrenders. The 8 month old, untrained, male was starting to hump the kids.


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## MurphysMinder (21 December 2011)

Those numbers are horrific, 107 bitches!  I just don't know how the general public can be educated to not buy from these places, free ads etc.  I agree that stopping pet shops selling pups would be a good start, some of these big pet superstores that also sell puppies take a lot of pups from puppy farms, if they could be stopped it would impact on the puppy farm business but no idea how you could do that.  There is one such place in Manchester that people were campaigning against in the early 70s yet they are still trading.


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## Cinnamontoast (21 December 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			I seem to remember signing an epetition against this, it says by10 January, 2011 which has expired but their breeding licence is up for renewal in August 2012.
		
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This generic one?
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=484965&highlight=sign



CaveCanem said:



			(people will get defensive if you call them fools and they realise they have been duped) and they will not listen to reasoned arguments a lot of the time.
		
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Tell me about it: I tried at length, as did lots of others, to persuade one girl not to buy a designer cross breed from a puppy farmer: no good, she defended his methods!  Probably purely based on her 'cute puppy'.


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## Dobiegirl (21 December 2011)

CT yes that is the one ,I found my name on it eventually, there is hell of a lot of signatures on there. Did they take any notice.?


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## puppyalert (21 December 2011)

Dobiegirl, the petition that you signed earlier on in the year was for Beili Bedw, which unfortunatly was given planning permission (for change of use from agriculture to dog breeding) even though there were over 700 objections. Planning can only base their decisions on matters relating to planning legisation. 

Commercial dog breeding kennels like this are are only allowed to operate because the Council Public Protection department issues them with a dog breeding licence and do not limit the number of dogs each holding can have or should I say sets the limit too high.  Licensing are responsible for welfare issues, the buildings that are used and whether they meet the conditions of a dog breeders licence. Unfortunately, Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion and Pembrokeshire Councils in Wales have the highest number of licensed and unlicensed dog breeders, particulary Carmarthenshire.  They also have the lowest possible standards when issueing dog breeder licenses.  Many, licensed and unlicensed dog breeder in Wales are also livestock or arable farmers and they use disused agriculture sheds to acccomodate their dogs, such as calving pens, sheep pens, pig styes etc and the Council accept these buildings as being suitable. When they are not, at least not for long term use.


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## Cinnamontoast (21 December 2011)

Clearly not, given that stupid woman is applying. I dnt know what we'd have to do to make the authorities sit up and pa attention. Perhaps someone important should be made to wade through the tons of ***** and see the pitiful state of these dogs in order for something to actually happen. 

Or perhaps we could just send Cayla down with a bloody big machine gun so she can line these idiots up and shoot them?


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## Broodle (21 December 2011)

SusieT said:



			'We need more derision of the idiots who support them.
Less of the "Aww you got a kyuuute puppy" and more of the "what sort of moron buys a puppy farm puppy"'
Do you really think that deriding someone wins them over to your cause?? It's exactly that which gets peoples backs up and makes them view all welfare organisations good and bad in a very negative light.
Ask where it comes from, say did they realise there can be big problems, poor mum dogs etc.-that will get through to far more people!
		
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^^^^^^This!  Well put SusieT

It's such a shame that, while there is a good system in place for people to object to planning applications, there is no way to object to other council decisions such as licensing of dog breeders


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## Ravenwood (21 December 2011)

I think whoever compared the media involvement with battery/boiler house hens is probably on the right track.

Would it be worth contacting every Public Watchdog type show on every TV Channel and trying to get as many of them to feature the workings of large scale puppy farming.  This would then hopefully lead to Sunday paper features (or vice versa), get a celebrity to take interest and lead a campaign?

Media coverage is surely the most effective way to turn the public opinion and educate.

Putting in objections to a planning permission (although of course a good first step) is not going to create attention where needed - it will just pee off the council 

Juts a few thoughts anyway.


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## CorvusCorax (21 December 2011)

But the journalists need to know what they are talking about too (careful now ) as can be seen by an institution like the BBC blatantly falling for and running a free Christmas advertising campaign.....you could not buy that sort of publicity for a slightly-larger-than- average (average being the operative word) litter of a common breed.

The media can undo months of good work - a paper can print ONE pic of a kyoot floofy woofy poopy and EVERYONE will suddenly want a bichonajackawawapoo and the puppy farmers will be happy to oblige 
I know people with rarer breeds who hope against hope that their breed does not, for example, pick up BIS at Crufts on the telly and become the latest 'trend' dog.

I wish the RSPCA had spent all that money from their recent campaign bashing pedigree dogs/breeders on specifically targeting BYBs and puppy farms instead, they are most at fault when it comes to deformities and ill-health - and the biggest difference is, a good breeder when something goes wrong will take back an unwanted pup, stop their line if there is a health problem, offer a refund or a replacement, the BYBs and puppy farmers pocket their money and walk away.


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## Ravenwood (21 December 2011)

That RSPCA campaign against pedigree breeders has led to the BBC dropping Crufts coverage    It was so bloody restricted anyway, they were too scared to show the gun dog ring (the working ones) etc for fear of upsetting the viewers!

I know what you mean about fashionable dog trends - Dalmations, OES's (need I say more )

I take your point and obviously you are far more knowledgeable than me re media but slowly chugging away in the background is not really getting anywhere 

And I guess media sensation only lasts five minutes anyway - remember eggs and salmonella! 

I don't know what the answer is, I think the profusion of rescue homes have something to answer for - it makes it so much easier for people to consider their dogs dispensible


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## CorvusCorax (21 December 2011)

Trying not to be too cynical either, but bear in mind how much advertising represents to the media, also and would they be willing to lose that, especially to newspapers in these tight times.....I think the free websites are much, much more at fault than the rescue homes though.
I don't know what it is like where you are but most people here don't take their dogs to rescue, they chuck them on the streets or they take them to the pound, either not knowing or caring that the dog then has seven days to be rehomed or die.
Most of the rescues here take dogs from the pound rather than straight hand-ins.


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## s4sugar (22 December 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			But the journalists need to know what they are talking about too (careful now ) as can be seen by an institution like the BBC blatantly falling for and running a free Christmas advertising campaign.....you could not buy that sort of publicity for a slightly-larger-than- average (average being the operative word) litter of a common breed.

The media can undo months of good work - a paper can print ONE pic of a kyoot floofy woofy poopy and EVERYONE will suddenly want a bichonajackawawapoo and the puppy farmers will be happy to oblige 
I know people with rarer breeds who hope against hope that their breed does not, for example, pick up BIS at Crufts on the telly and become the latest 'trend' dog.

I wish the RSPCA had spent all that money from their recent campaign bashing pedigree dogs/breeders on specifically targeting BYBs and puppy farms instead, they are most at fault when it comes to deformities and ill-health - and the biggest difference is, a good breeder when something goes wrong will take back an unwanted pup, stop their line if there is a health problem, offer a refund or a replacement, the BYBs and puppy farmers pocket their money and walk away.
		
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The BBC expose was a big cash boost for the puppy farmers. Suddenly they could market their "not KC registered" and "not inbred" or "cross breeds are healthier" rubbish and people handed over money.


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## CorvusCorax (22 December 2011)

Yep    
Little matter that the mother of these wonderful puppies is only a puppy herself and neither sire or dam has ever seen daylight, been in a house, been to the beach, walked down a street....

Pity no one can point the documentary makers in the direction of, er, Wales!!!


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## Naryafluffy (22 December 2011)

Micro-chipped at birth and breeder and new owner registered (similar to tattooing), if puppies are handed into rescues/dumped, breeder can be held responsible for some of the costs of rehoming/rehabilitation.
If they have the possiblity (who am i kidding with puppy farms it's the probability) of having to put money back into the puppy after being given to unsuitable owners they may think twice (traders in puppies should also be on the register).
Reputable breeders probably already get the puppies microchipped and probably already have reputable homes available for the puppies that they are aware of and will probably be happy to be contacted by the new owners should something unforseen happen and the dog can no longer be held (mentioning this as a breeder I know took a dog back because the man in the house died suddenly and the wife was not assertive enough to cope with the dog and things had started going downhill and she couldn't keep the dog, forever homes are great, but you can't cover every eventuality).
With the best will in the world there is a rescue that operates and the majority of it's rescues are ex-puppy farm bitches, they appear very difficult to rehome given their lack of socialisation with humans/leashes/houses etc and I wonder how much this encourages the puppy farmers (I'm not putting this rescue down in any way), bit like buying the puppies, if there was no where for the bitches to go after they were done would they keep replacing them (there would be a media story that might hit home because I get the feeling that the would just euthanise the bitches once they were done with them).
Lack of education on the buyers part and lack of morals on the breeders part I don't think this would be an easy thing to put a stop to.


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## Dobiegirl (22 December 2011)

There is a rescue near me that seems to get more than their fair share of exbreeding bitches, like you I thought it might be encouraging the breeders but came to the same conclusion in that they would have the poor bitch pts at least with rehoming they have a chance to experience a proper home.

I thought that perhaps if we wrote to the local MPs Jonathan Edwards for Carmarthen East and Simon Hart for Carmarthen West and someone drafted a letter that we could all put our signatures on maybe just maybe it might do some good. At the moment we our rightly outraged at the problem but we seem helpless to do something about the situation, we need to be more proactive. Any ideas, thoughts, any takers for drafting this letter, is it a good idea or can you think of something more fitting.


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## davisn (22 December 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			I thought that perhaps if we wrote to the local MPs Jonathan Edwards for Carmarthen East and Simon Hart for Carmarthen West and someone drafted a letter that we could all put our signatures on maybe just maybe it might do some good. At the moment we our rightly outraged at the problem but we seem helpless to do something about the situation, we need to be more proactive. Any ideas, thoughts, any takers for drafting this letter, is it a good idea or can you think of something more fitting.
		
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DG I think this is a good idea, it's got to be worth the price of a stamp!

The idea I had was to try to raise awareness of the downsides of puppy farming with more people. Does anyone know the name of the TV show that's been on a few years now where they team up a celebrity with a rescue dog & they train to do agility & tricks etc. I don't watch the show, but I'm guessing it tries to help raise awareness of the rescue homes & dogs, so it might do snippets of factual stuff mixed in with the fun?? If so, would it be worth trying to get them to do a bit on breeders & puppy farms? It might hit more of the target audience, being a main stream entertainment show? Just a thought. 

Also, were there any 'big name' celebrities on that show who we could contact to see if they would champion the cause? Who presents it?

For once I wish i watched more TV!


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