# "POA" - sellers - why not just say what the price is?



## Andiamo (15 April 2013)

Sorry, just a rant here about sellers of horses...

I'm looking at dressage horse ads, and so many of them put POA, instead of providing a price for the horse. I find it counter-productive. I would prefer just to see the price of the horse to know immediately if I can afford it, before I make a call to the seller to find out more about it, thereby potentially wasting their time and mine. 

One particular prominent seller has written POA on all their ads, and also has written "no time wasters or dreamers". So, I am nervous about asking the price of a horse, because if it's way over my budget, then I'm for sure going to be a timewaster in their eyes. For example, I enquired about a 4 yr old baby, and was told it is £28K.  ... at least I have a good taste 

....then they asked me my budget. Well, I'm not happy giving that out, because suddenly horses can go up in price according to a potential buyer's budget. Why can't sellers just say it like it is, and state the price, in order to filter out the people who would not be able to afford it? I suggested to them in an email, that it would be very helpful if they would provide "price bands" for their horses on their website, and give each horse a rating, so at least buyers know the sort of range it's in, and whether it's worth picking up the phone or not. 

Also, I'll call a private seller, and they'll waffle on for almost an hour about every tiny irrelevant detail, and leave me unable to get a word in edgewise, and unable to ask pertinent questions. By the time they take a breath and stop talking, I've lost the will to live, and just want to get off the phone, and I still haven't found out if the horse is sane, sound, if it's been out competing, why are they selling it etc. 

Sellers - if you want to sell a horse - please be direct, honest, to the point, state the price in the ad, and allow the enquirer to ask you questions and speak on the phone! If this is not something you feel comfortable with, maybe let a trainer that knows the horse take the phone calls? 

Rant over!!!


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## Ali16 (15 April 2013)

Lol, *breathe* 

FWIW I do agree with everything you have said, but we recently had a sales livery in where the owner actually requested that we put POA on the ad, so that their friends didn't know how much the horse was selling for. I personally have never called up about a POA horse, thinking that it would probably be more expensive than my teeny tiny budget allowed for 

And I never understand why sellers feel the need to babble on about irrelevant details... Let the buyer do the talking & try to answer in plain English


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## tinap (16 April 2013)

Oh it drives me nuts too! I'd much rather know something is £50k before I ring up & look a tit with my £5k budget


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## SpruceRI (16 April 2013)

I totally agree!

I've phoned up about several horses over the years with the POA in the advert.... and the seller and I have hedged around the price for sale/money available. They are probably hoping I've got more money to spend than they meant to ask for and I wouldn't say because usually I didn't have much money!

One call we eventually got to a price, I viewed the horse, like it, had it vetted and it failed and that was that.

The rest of them, we did our little 'telephone dance' and I usually gave up and rang off!


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## JennyNZ (16 April 2013)

I actually read it as "seller is in LaLa land" 

 The other ones I don't bother with are the ones that say "no time wasters etc".  Define a "time waster" - if I contact you with a question, but then decide I don't want to take it any further, is that me?

I know selling horses can be a case of grit your teeth and smile, but I do sometimes wonder how badly some actually want to sell the horse.


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## maccachic (16 April 2013)

I just saw the funniest one yesterday "if you not prepared to cough up the dough don't enquire" for an over priced horse LOL


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## dollymix (16 April 2013)

I agree with this, especially the ones who also put "no time wasters or dreamers".... 

Seller has made potential buyers dreamers because unless they are fantastic at guessing, what else can you do?

Plus if you call to ask a price you are labelled a time waster. Actually seller, YOU are wasting my time as I could have counted or discounted your horse as a possibility immediately if I knew what price the horse was!!!


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## Ferdinase514 (16 April 2013)

I agree re privacy on selling price, particulatly once you get to £20k +


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## natalia (16 April 2013)

I don't price all mine up, purely because as they do more they are worth more and it looks worse changing the price all the time. I have a very nice cob at the moment who it top class, but am surprised at the ammount of people who ring up thinking 4k will buy him! (He's a POA horse as most people who want something like this won't want to disclose how much they paid for it).


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## The Fuzzy Furry (16 April 2013)

Just been looking at a lwvtb (have been bitten hard on last purchase) and whilst all is tickety-boo with owner, equine etc, the owner still doesn't 'know' what to put as selling price. 
So am currently at stalemate as will not agree to take until ££'s are firmed up.... 

Agree with others for special horses if into 5 figures or therabouts that POA is fine tho


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## Ali16 (16 April 2013)

natalia said:



			I don't price all mine up, purely because as they do more they are worth more and it looks worse changing the price all the time. I have a very nice cob at the moment who it top class, but am surprised at the ammount of people who ring up thinking 4k will buy him! (He's a POA horse as most people who want something like this won't want to disclose how much they paid for it).
		
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I'm not being narky here, so please don't be offended, but if you get lots of people calling up wanting to pay £4k for a quality horse, why not just put the price on? It saves time & effort on both sides.... 

We try to be as transparent as possible when selling horses, so unless the client SPECIFICALLY requests it, I always tend to put the price on, regardless of whether the horse is £2k or £40k+ (we sell these & everything in between).


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## castella (16 April 2013)

As soon as I see POA I assume its going to be a crazy price so would never call a POA advert.


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## Dry Rot (16 April 2013)

There was a similar thread on here not long ago. The question is not as simple as it sounds so I'm afraid this will be long!

I am a small breeder and increasingly do more with the (few) ponies I sell because I enjoy it and it adds value. I've an interest in the future of what I produce. Mine is a hobby rather than a business but I still have try to pay my way!

OK, I advertise a young horse which shows great promise as an eventer for £3,000. Miss X turns up with cheque book in hand, willing to pay the price, but she just wants a happy hacker as she is a novice and has no ambitions to do more. The truth is, the horse is obviously too much for what she wants but she wants him anyway.

Miss Y, on the other hand, is looking for an eventer and, if sucessful, her wins will be a good advertisement for my stud. She is also a good rider and is completely in sympathy with the horse. However, she, Miss Y, can't afford £3,000. If I had stated the price in an advertisement, she might well have passed by.

Should I sell Miss X a horse which is really too much for her just because she has the money? 

There is a third buyer, Miss Z, who is so keen on the horse that she even offers £3,500 but she roughly handles the horse when she tries it and it is clearly a mismatch. She is rude, late, and critical -- but arrives in Daddy's Porsche and if pushed might even pay more.

I would suggest that the wise seller who has feelings for what they are selling rather than considering it purely in business terms will hold back on price and wait to see who wants to buy. The serious buyer, on the other hand, will have done some research and know what the market price for such a horse will be. If the horse suits them in every respect, they might even be prepared to bargain for a higher than market price because this one is "special".

For those who think more along the lines of "what I can afford", I suggest you do your research and speak to the owner and ask if they would be prepared to negotiate around that figure. Deals are done on that basis every day. To those just wanting a cheap horse, I say please don't waste my time. If the horse you would like to buy isn't worth the time and expense of a phone call, I am not sure I want to sell to you anyway! 

I recently sold an old but perfectly fit pony for £3 (three pounds). She was never advertised and was worth a lot more. Why? Because she went to the perfect home where she will be loved and cared for. Yes, I could probably have got £500, even £1,000, for her (she still does everything and is the perfect child's pony), but would she have got such a good home?


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## lachlanandmarcus (16 April 2013)

I think if a horse is say over £10k then POA is fine as buyers clearly have enough dosh not to be worried by it. 

Under that I would think the banding system would work well, giving flexibility to sellers but also some clue to buyers!

I too would never contact a POA advert. The problem with saying a seller might want to let it go for less to a perfect home is that most of those perfect home (of which hopefully I am one) will NOT reply to POA adverts.  The arrogant and uncaring types will!


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## Ali16 (16 April 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			There was a similar thread on here not long ago. The question is not as simple as it sounds so I'm afraid this will be long!

I am a small breeder and increasingly do more with the (few) ponies I sell because I enjoy it and it adds value. I've an interest in the future of what I produce. Mine is a hobby rather than a business but I still have try to pay my way!

OK, I advertise a young horse which shows great promise as an eventer for £3,000. Miss X turns up with cheque book in hand, willing to pay the price, but she just wants a happy hacker as she is a novice and has no ambitions to do more. The truth is, the horse is obviously too much for what she wants but she wants him anyway.

Miss Y, on the other hand, is looking for an eventer and, if sucessful, her wins will be a good advertisement for my stud. She is also a good rider and is completely in sympathy with the horse. However, she, Miss Y, can't afford £3,000. If I had stated the price in an advertisement, she might well have passed by.

Should I sell Miss X a horse which is really too much for her just because she has the money? 

There is a third buyer, Miss Z, who is so keen on the horse that she even offers £3,500 but she roughly handles the horse when she tries it and it is clearly a mismatch. She is rude, late, and critical -- but arrives in Daddy's Porsche and if pushed might even pay more.

I would suggest that the wise seller who has feelings for what they are selling rather than considering it purely in business terms will hold back on price and wait to see who wants to buy. The serious buyer, on the other hand, will have done some research and know what the market price for such a horse will be. If the horse suits them in every respect, they might even be prepared to bargain for a higher than market price because this one is "special".

For those who think more along the lines of "what I can afford", I suggest you do your research and speak to the owner and ask if they would be prepared to negotiate around that figure. Deals are done on that basis every day. To those just wanting a cheap horse, I say please don't waste my time. If the horse you would like to buy isn't worth the time and expense of a phone call, I am not sure I want to sell to you anyway! 

I recently sold an old but perfectly fit pony for £3 (three pounds). She was never advertised and was worth a lot more. Why? Because she went to the perfect home where she will be loved and cared for. Yes, I could probably have got £500, even £1,000, for her (she still does everything and is the perfect child's pony), but would she have got such a good home?
		
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I completely appreciate what you are saying, but if Miss X or Miss Z turned up here wanting the same horse, we wouldn't sell it to them. Issues would probably crop up further down the line for Miss X as she probably does not have the experience to cope with said horse, & Miss Z can just take a hike! No way would we sell to someone who doesn't care for the horse. But chances are, there are other horses that would suit Miss Y, within her budget & I would be happy to wait a bit longer (as we always tell our clients) for the right person to come along with the right amount of money... Miss A if you like. So, even in these circumstances, we would always put the price on, then if Miss A does come along & makes an offer, we can go from there.


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## perfect11s (16 April 2013)

POA means there will be  a rogue ,chancer or idiot on the other end of the line ,  it's almost allways for a  dubious reason like dealers selling on commision  so the owner dosent find out what the true price is or things they could buy in if they find a buyer, or a  seller that hopes they can talk  someone into paying over the odds. I always move on to a genuine seller with prices!  no one would go to a supermarket without prices  why would you do the same looking for a lorry ,horse etc...


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## Ferdinase514 (16 April 2013)

I think a lot of buyers dislike poa as they are lacking the confidence as purchasers to call and ask the price. So what if its out of your price range? Just say thanks but not for me.


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## Goldenstar (16 April 2013)

dollymix said:



			I agree with this, especially the ones who also put "no time wasters or dreamers".... 

Seller has made potential buyers dreamers because unless they are fantastic at guessing, what else can you do?

Plus if you call to ask a price you are labelled a time waster. Actually seller, YOU are wasting my time as I could have counted or discounted your horse as a possibility immediately if I knew what price the horse was!!!
		
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If I see the time waster and dreamer thing I won't call full stop. For POA I think think they will suss out who I am or see my car they will try to double the price so I don't bother ringing 
To me if a seller can't start by saying the price is X they are going to be a night mare and there are always other horses.
I don't mind dealer / producers who put the horses in price bands that quite a good way when a young horse is in work and will be increasing in value .


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## perfect11s (16 April 2013)

Ferdinase514 said:



			I think a lot of buyers dislike poa as they are lacking the confidence as purchasers to call and ask the price. So what if its out of your price range? Just say thanks but not for me.
		
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 depends if you want to waste your life talking to these people you arent going to get to the price untill you have played a silly question and answer game !!!been there and not playing anymore, sorry if you're looking for a bargain the auction is a million times  better odds


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## trendybraincell (16 April 2013)

I would use to say I'd never contact a POA advert but my little one was advertised as POA.

I really liked him from the advert but didn't want to go see him if he was out of my price range as thats what I would consider time wasting. Phoning up to ask questions is just sensible 

I was upfront with breeder/seller about what I was after likewise she told me the sort of figure she had in mind. I had done a lot of research before hand so hoped the figure I had in mind was about right given his breeding, temperament etc I was lucky I was spot on, there was some negotiation but I'm SO pleased I was brave enough to call a POA ad as he is a very special chap!


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## Andiamo (16 April 2013)

That's hilarious!  Who would actually ring up about that?!!



maccachic said:



			I just saw the funniest one yesterday "if you not prepared to cough up the dough don't enquire" for an over priced horse LOL
		
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## Goldenstar (16 April 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			There was a similar thread on here not long ago. The question is not as simple as it sounds so I'm afraid this will be long!

I am a small breeder and increasingly do more with the (few) ponies I sell because I enjoy it and it adds value. I've an interest in the future of what I produce. Mine is a hobby rather than a business but I still have try to pay my way!

OK, I advertise a young horse which shows great promise as an eventer for £3,000. Miss X turns up with cheque book in hand, willing to pay the price, but she just wants a happy hacker as she is a novice and has no ambitions to do more. The truth is, the horse is obviously too much for what she wants but she wants him anyway.U

Miss Y, on the other hand, is looking for an eventer and, if sucessful, her wins will be a good advertisement for my stud. She is also a good rider and is completely in sympathy with the horse. However, she, Miss Y, can't afford £3,000. If I had stated the price in an advertisement, she might well have passed by.

Should I sell Miss X a horse which is really too much for her just because she has the money? 

There is a third buyer, Miss Z, who is so keen on the horse that she even offers £3,500 but she roughly handles the horse when she tries it and it is clearly a mismatch. She is rude, late, and critical -- but arrives in Daddy's Porsche and if pushed might even pay more.

I would suggest that the wise seller who has feelings for what they are selling rather than considering it purely in business terms will hold back on price and wait to see who wants to buy. The serious buyer, on the other hand, will have done some research and know what the market price for such a horse will be. If the horse suits them in every respect, they might even be prepared to bargain for a higher than market price because this one is "special".

For those who think more along the lines of "what I can afford", I suggest you do your research and speak to the owner and ask if they would be prepared to negotiate around that figure. Deals are done on that basis every day. To those just wanting a cheap horse, I say please don't waste my time. If the horse you would like to buy isn't worth the time and expense of a phone call, I am not sure I want to sell to you anyway! 

I recently sold an old but perfectly fit pony for £3 (three pounds). She was never advertised and was worth a lot more. Why? Because she went to the perfect home where she will be loved and cared for. Yes, I could probably have got £500, even £1,000, for her (she still does everything and is the perfect child's pony), but would she have got such a good home?
		
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Personally in the example you give I don't think your ability to sell your horse to the right person would be any way affected by advertising it with a price on the advertisement if you are prepared to negiogate the price a bit to the right person just offers in the region of x on the ad.
I don't understand the relevance of the pony story to the thread at all.


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## Puffin (16 April 2013)

Anything in life is only worth what someone will pay for it.

The issue comes when theres a mismatch between the seller's and buyer's expectations.

Doing your research only goes so far, horses are individuals, its not like buying a car, and they have a lot to do with personal taste. 

I really hate PoA ads, and fwiw I wouldn't ring about PoA, ever, even if I actually had a fairly hefty sum to spend on a horse, for all the reasons people have said, so the seller might actually lose out.


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## Andiamo (16 April 2013)

It sounds like you clearly have your heart invested in your breeding, which is really lovely to hear  

With all due respect, here are some points on what you're saying: 

1) the car in which the buyer drives up in can influence the selling price. This is true. I know someone, who is well-to-do, drives a lush car...they wanted to go view a horse at a major seller's place. This person borrowed a wreck of a car to go to the viewing, and got a massive deal in the negotiations on this horse, bec. he said he was broke and couldn't afford it. Well, it was the deal of the century, this horse is now winning at PSG. If he had gone in his usual car, he would would have paid a whole lot more for this horse (he knew the actual asking price due to knowing people at the yard where the horse was kept). Therefore, the buyer's car does impact sale price when sale price is unknown. 

2) "The serious buyer, on the other hand, will have done some research and know what the market price for such a horse will be."
- this is incorrect - how should a buyer tell from a photo and a basic 4 line description what the price for this horse should be? If you put the price on the ad, you rule people in / you rule people out / and you attract the people who can afford the horse. If you're willing to negotiate the price, then put ONO after the price, so you don't rule out the devoted & talented poor people  

3)- "they might even be prepared to bargain for a higher than market price because this one is "special"
- I always think, if I buy at this price, and then had to sell it tomorrow, would I get the price I paid? If the answer is no, and it always is, then the price is too high, and the price is being artificially inflated - perhaps because a "pro" has sat on it for 2 weeks, or because the seller has high hopes. 

4)"If the horse you would like to buy isn't worth the time and expense of a phone call, I am not sure I want to sell to you anyway! " - 
- as you can see on here, most people would not phone about a POA horse. Especially when disparaging comments are included in the ad: "no timewasters". There is also the embarrassment / humiliation / awkwardness of finding out the horse is WAY more than you could ever have expected. It puts people off. It's embarrassing for some people to have to say "I'm sorry, I cannot afford that". 

5) I am glad to hear you found a home for the old pony, and accepted £3 for her, that's super that she's gone to a lovely home.



Dry Rot said:



			There was a similar thread on here not long ago. The question is not as simple as it sounds so I'm afraid this will be long!

I am a small breeder and increasingly do more with the (few) ponies I sell because I enjoy it and it adds value. I've an interest in the future of what I produce. Mine is a hobby rather than a business but I still have try to pay my way!

OK, I advertise a young horse which shows great promise as an eventer for £3,000. Miss X turns up with cheque book in hand, willing to pay the price, but she just wants a happy hacker as she is a novice and has no ambitions to do more. The truth is, the horse is obviously too much for what she wants but she wants him anyway.

Miss Y, on the other hand, is looking for an eventer and, if sucessful, her wins will be a good advertisement for my stud. She is also a good rider and is completely in sympathy with the horse. However, she, Miss Y, can't afford £3,000. If I had stated the price in an advertisement, she might well have passed by.

Should I sell Miss X a horse which is really too much for her just because she has the money? 

There is a third buyer, Miss Z, who is so keen on the horse that she even offers £3,500 but she roughly handles the horse when she tries it and it is clearly a mismatch. She is rude, late, and critical -- but arrives in Daddy's Porsche and if pushed might even pay more.

I would suggest that the wise seller who has feelings for what they are selling rather than considering it purely in business terms will hold back on price and wait to see who wants to buy. The serious buyer, on the other hand, will have done some research and know what the market price for such a horse will be. If the horse suits them in every respect, they might even be prepared to bargain for a higher than market price because this one is "special".

For those who think more along the lines of "what I can afford", I suggest you do your research and speak to the owner and ask if they would be prepared to negotiate around that figure. Deals are done on that basis every day. To those just wanting a cheap horse, I say please don't waste my time. If the horse you would like to buy isn't worth the time and expense of a phone call, I am not sure I want to sell to you anyway! 

I recently sold an old but perfectly fit pony for £3 (three pounds). She was never advertised and was worth a lot more. Why? Because she went to the perfect home where she will be loved and cared for. Yes, I could probably have got £500, even £1,000, for her (she still does everything and is the perfect child's pony), but would she have got such a good home?
		
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## BeckyD (16 April 2013)

I don't think I've ever rung up about a POA horse.  I absolutely hate using the phone and the thought of ringing up and not getting a straight-forward answer on price is enough to send me into paroxysms of terror.  At least when I know the price I know I can be fairly confident when I ring.

Plus most of the selllers I've known have put POA have explicitly said they've done it because they hope someone will pay more than the seller thinks the horse is actually worth.  That smacks of underhand tactics and is not something I would succumb to.  I'm open and honest and happy to tell anyone what I paid for my horses.  I'm not afraid of being judged.


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## Goldenstar (16 April 2013)

Car thing is true some people do put the price up when they see the car.


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## Andiamo (16 April 2013)

Ferdinase514 said:



			I think a lot of buyers dislike poa as they are lacking the confidence as purchasers to call and ask the price. So what if its out of your price range? Just say thanks but not for me.
		
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I agree. But...if there are ten ads, and they all have the price, you can visually scan them in a matter of seconds. 

If there are ten ads, and they all state POA, if you consider 5 minutes per call to ask the price, (plus the amount of time is takes to pluck up the courage to call) then you're looking at 50 minutes (compared to seconds) - plus not everyone's reachable, and they won't disclose the price on the phone, or they take days to ring you back....plus, potentially ten awkward moments of saying "sorry, not in my budget", then having to fend off the questions of "well, what is your budget"? 

Actually, contrary to all of this, I just thought back to my first horse in Germany. I saw an ad with a picture of this stunning dapple grey dressage horse - pinned up in a telephone booth, price was POA. 
Well, it took me about 2 weeks to eventually get the courage to ring up, and still the seller wouldn't tell me the price, she said "you have to come see her". 

Well, I was completely inexperienced with the whole thing, it was my first time buying a horse, to be honest I wasn't even looking to buy one. I had been sharing one up to that point, and I just happened to use that phone booth that day. So, I went to see the horse. It was love at first sight, she was the most beautiful creature I had ever seen. I couldn't ride very well (and embarrassingly there was a big audience of serious German riders watching me try her), but I wanted a serious horse to learn dressage on, and I loved her immediately. Anyway, seller still wouldn't tell me a price. It got to a point where she asked me, what would you pay? I told her a really silly amount, about 5K&#8364;, and she sold her to me for that - because she knew I loved the horse completely. She told me afterwards she'd paid 14K&#8364; for that horse direct from breeder just 2 years before. But she was touched by the immediate "click" that the mare and I had  
I think this is a one-off situation though!


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## measles (16 April 2013)

Surely the viewing and price hike on viewing the potential client's car issue (which I could imagine some unscrupulous people doing) doesn't happen as surely, surely people don't view horses without knowing their price? POA may put people off but if they do call the price is always ascertained before viewing?  No one would view a horse when they had no idea of the price ...?


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## TarrSteps (16 April 2013)

Andiamo, the person in your car example did not get a deal merely because he drove a different car, he (maybe - you don't know what the seller might have taken) wrangled a deal because he lied about his personal circumstances. Which shows you what a game the whole thing is. People love games when they benefit from them, less so when they are on the "losing" end. 

POA traditionally means "If you have to ask, you can't afford." People who spend 50 or 100k on a horse don't necessarily want everyone else to know their business.  And yes, there might be other people involved, taking cuts along the way. People may disagree with this but, at the upper levels, it's how deals get done and usually everyone one involved is resigned. 

For horses at "everyday" price points I do think it's a a conceit or, as suggested, something not quite right is going on. (Although that's pretty dumb as if you're giving out the price of the horse on the phone, word is going to get 'round!) As this thread shows it probably backfires more than not by putting off people who might genuinely interested, although if I liked the look of a horse it would not put me off ringing up.

As to sellers saying "no time wasters" that always makes me laugh. As if that's going to put a real time waster (who may not even see themselves that way) off! Potential buyers aren't obligated to continue with a deal after an initial conversation or even a ride. I know there are lots of people who jerk sellers around but, equally, if someone comes to try a horse and doesn't like it, how is that wrong? If I go into Sainsbury's I'm not contractually obligated to buy something!


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## measles (16 April 2013)

Posted without reading Andiamo's post immediately above so not directed to them!


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## Andiamo (16 April 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			If I see the time waster and dreamer thing I won't call full stop. For POA I think think they will suss out who I am or see my car they will try to double the price so I don't bother ringing
		
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Definitely this happens. I was at some elite auctions in Germany...and the serious well-known riders don't go themselves - they send someone unknown to look at horses for them. Otherwise it drives the price up on the horse, and gets lots of other buyers interested in it if so-and-so pro rider likes it. 

In effect, price is a psychological game, when it is unknown, and is influenced by many factors. 



Goldenstar said:



			I don't mind dealer / producers who put the horses in price bands that quite a good way when a young horse is in work and will be increasing in value .
		
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Agreed. Price bands are the way forward.


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## Goldenstar (16 April 2013)

Agree totally with TS about the time waster comment it's unlikely to deter the determined Time waster and just puts off the slightly shy and to me it says this person is likely it be deeply unpleasant to deal with so I toddle on to another horse.


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## cptrayes (16 April 2013)

I don't get the 'not wanting friends/other people to know'  argument. If anyone wants to know they'll just ring up and ask, won't they?

I hate POA as I think it usually means "the most we can get you to pay". But my last horse was and I'm glad I contacted the dealer because I told them he was out of my budget, and we left it at that. But a few days later they came back and asked what my budget was, and agreed to sell him for that if I could complete the deal before their mortgage payment was due. He was a cheap horse for what he is!


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## TarrSteps (16 April 2013)

measles said:



			Surely the viewing and price hike on viewing the potential client's car issue (which I could imagine some unscrupulous people doing) doesn't happen as surely, surely people don't view horses without knowing their price? POA may put people off but if they do call the price is always ascertained before viewing?  No one would view a horse when they had no idea of the price ...?
		
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Very true! 


I would also say if the horse is in a sales yard situation, POA might be a very understandable way to go as the ad might very well be placed before the agent has had a chance to properly assess the horse. We had a horse in that had come from a dressage background, never jumped, and was being priced as a not very successful mid level dressage horse. A couple of days into having him he was jumping a good sized course, doing automatic changes and suddenly worth quite a bit as a working hunter type. So his "value" when he walked in the door was considerably lower than it was by the time people were coming to see him.


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## Goldenstar (16 April 2013)

You do view horses without knowing prices in advance at dealers and breeders who will have several for you to see this has happened to me I will know there are say six horses priced between 10 and 30 k in the age and size range I am looking for and nothing esle when I get there.


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## cptrayes (16 April 2013)

Andiamo said:



			Agreed. Price bands are the way forward.
		
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I hate price bands more than POA 

A big dealer up here advertises in bands. 10k to  15k. What does that mean - is the horse 10k or 15k, one's in my budget and the other is way outside it - do I ring or not?


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## Andiamo (16 April 2013)

measles said:



			Surely the viewing and price hike on viewing the potential client's car issue (which I could imagine some unscrupulous people doing) doesn't happen as surely, surely people don't view horses without knowing their price? POA may put people off but if they do call the price is always ascertained before viewing?  No one would view a horse when they had no idea of the price ...?
		
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Hmmm. I did. Quite randomly, in hindsight, it did work out positively  But as I mentioned, I think it was a one-off. And I was a complete beginner at the time, and didn't know any different!


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## TarrSteps (16 April 2013)

Andiamo said:



			Definitely this happens. I was at some elite auctions in Germany...and the serious well-known riders don't go themselves - they send someone unknown to look at horses for them. Otherwise it drives the price up on the horse, and gets lots of other buyers interested in it if so-and-so pro rider likes it. 

In effect, price is a psychological game, when it is unknown, and is influenced by many factors. 


Agreed. Price bands are the way forward.
		
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To be fair, I don't think you can use the European horse auctions as representative for the purposes of this discussion. They are a world unto themselves!  All sorts of deals get done with people buying horses back, trading goods and services etc especially in the larger events, where the goal is to drive the highest "on paper" prices, regardless of the actual money changing hands.  Look at the publicity PS and company got from the sale of Poetin! I'd be very surprised if that was someone just sitting down and writing out a cheque for 6.5 million.

But yes, I very much agree with price bands. At least it gives people an idea going in what they are likely to get for their money.


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## Goldenstar (16 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I hate price bands more than POA 

A big dealer up here advertises in bands. 10k to  15k. What does that mean - is the horse 10k or 15k, one's in my budget and the other is way outside it - do I ring or not?
		
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You ring .


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## TarrSteps (16 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I hate price bands more than POA 

A big dealer up here advertises in bands. 10k to  15k. What does that mean - is the horse 10k or 15k, one's in my budget and the other is way outside it - do I ring or not?
		
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Fair enough, but if you have 8k to spend you do know not even to call, which is what people on the thread seem to want clarified.


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## Goldenstar (16 April 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Fair enough, but if you have 8k to spend you do know not even to call, which is what people on the thread seem to want clarified.
		
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Exactly .


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## Andiamo (16 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I hate price bands more than POA 

A big dealer up here advertises in bands. 10k to  15k. What does that mean - is the horse 10k or 15k, one's in my budget and the other is way outside it - do I ring or not?
		
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Haha! 
But at least with £10-15K, you know roughly that it might cost somewhere in the middle, and you have room for negotiation. If it's purely POA, the seller will suss you out based on where you live, who you are, your accent, if your parents are involved & financially supportive, etc, and the price then might be £20K+ for the same horse. 

I like the German & Dutch websites - you can search by your price band. 
This generally works well.

However, some ads do come up with POA, or it gives a link "price on our website" - which you then follow, and it turns out there's no price on their website. My impression is they think the UK'ers are all loaded, and if they're ringing up about Dutch / German horses, then the price gets hiked. The ones I have enquired about have been hugely priced, 4 year olds, just barely backed, at 50K, and the sellers were very abrupt as well, and won't tell you anything about the horse - and it put me off ever enquiring again about POA's.


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## TableDancer (16 April 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			People who spend 50 or 100k on a horse don't necessarily want everyone else to know their business.  And yes, there might be other people involved, taking cuts along the way. People may disagree with this but, at the upper levels, it's how deals get done and usually everyone one involved is resigned.
		
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This. I have advertised in this bracket, and neither me nor the potential purchasers would have wanted the purchase price being made public. If people rang up to enquire I was happy to tell them the price on the phone - okay, they could have been just being nosy but if they were that determined then so be it. I did get a very few with a budget of about a tenth of the asking price ringing up but I certainly tried to deal with them in a very sympathetic way, I've been in the sameosition myself and take the view that if you don't ask you'll never know! So while for horses under 20k I think POA is counter-productive in most circumstances, for all the reasons outlined on this thread, at the higher end of the market I have some sympathy.

ETA I would never let someone actually come and view a horse without having discussed the price, as it is a potential major waste of my and their time. So the car issue certainly isn't relevant in my case.


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## glamourpuss (16 April 2013)

I usually don't call POA either. One time there was a nice 6 yo ex-racer for sale. Nice but no world beater. I saw a video of it doing a nice dressage test, saw pictures of it jumping greenly. I don't want to beat the world but the POA put me off. I heard on the grape vine that the POA was because seller wanted to ensure right home & he was reasonably priced.

I called. I cut straight to the chase & asked how much they were thinking. I got an amazing spiel about how at a clinic an international eventer had said the horse was definite 4* material (didn't have any eventing experience at this stage) finally got her to tell me the price.

£20,000

I literally roared with laughter & asked if the horse was so good why hadn't the international eventer bought it  
She hung up on me


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## Andiamo (16 April 2013)

Decision making - please feel free to add to this, it would be good to get a comprehensive view of the decisions, from buyer and seller, that go into determining price

*Decisions for buyer*
- is it suitable for me?
- does it fit my criteria? (experience, age, size etc)
- can I afford it? - easy to answer if price is stated 
- does the price fit the quality, experience, fitness, health, age, discipline of the horse? any vices?
- any room for negotiation? 
- try it, discuss price, organise vetting
- vetting > pass - pay full price? 
- vetting > pass but some issues - negotiate price again?
- vetting > fail - is it minor? wait two weeks and re-vet? 

*Decisions for sellers*
- research market prices - for similar age, breed, experience
- base the price on what I paid? or on current market value? or base it on the value of my "brand", my reputation, others I've sold? 
- Timelines for selling: do I want to sell fast? or am I prepared to wait to get the money I want
- if it is on the market for X period of time with no interest, do I reduce the price to increase buyer interest? 
- If I price too low, buyers may think there is something wrong with the horse, and may get dealers in contact looking to make a profit. 
- If I price it high, it will give the horse a certain psychological value for the buyers
- how much lower than my asking price will I accept? 
- Will I accept a low price, if an amazing 5* home comes along? 

What's missing? 

There's a lot of research that has gone into the psychology of pricing / purchase decision-making in retail pricing, but I can't find anything with regards to horses.


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## Andiamo (16 April 2013)

A few years ago, I went to see a POA horse, a barely backed 4 yr old that was just off the lorry) at a major dealer's place, all their horses, to this day are POA. I liked the horse, I was told his price was £10K. 

I said "great, I like him a lot, I would like to come back to try him again". I went back the following weekend. Tried him again, and decided I wanted him. The staff member who had been helping me, went to tell the seller. He came back and said he now wants £13K for him. I couldn't believe it. 

I walked away, and left it at that. 

When prices are not listed, there is the potential for this to happen. 

Incidentally this is the same seller that the man I know bought from, (the one who drove up in his wreck of a car.) So, the tables were turned in that instance. 

It's such a game.


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## Goldenstar (16 April 2013)

Andiamo said:



			A few years ago, I went to see a POA horse, a barely backed 4 yr old that was just off the lorry) at a major dealer's place, all their horses, to this day are POA. I liked the horse, I was told his price was £10K. 

I said "great, I like him a lot, I would like to come back to try him again". I went back the following weekend. Tried him again, and decided I wanted him. The staff member who had been helping me, went to tell the seller. He came back and said he now wants £13K for him. I couldn't believe it. 

I walked away, and left it at that. 

When prices are not listed, there is the potential for this to happen. 

Incidentally this is the same seller that the man I know bought from, (the one who drove up in his wreck of a car.) So, the tables were turned in that instance. 

It's such a game.
		
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Exactly , this has happened to me I walked to.


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## TarrSteps (16 April 2013)

Was the horse doing more than the first time you saw it? Had it shown particular talent in one area? Perhaps it would have been more sensible in a situation like that to say you would like to come back but can't for a week and will the horse still be the same price?

If the then sold that horse to someone else for 13k how did he lose out vs selling it to you for 10k? Of course, if he didn't sell it, you have a point, but if he was in the business of selling he probably raised the price for a reason.

I don't know how you would "study" pricing in horses as there is no set system and too many variables - many of them to do with human qualities - to possibly quantify one. Even things like location can change value hugely - a horse that jumps like a good show hunter is worth a lot in North America, much less here. Horses are worth what people are willing to pay. 

There are other areas that work like this to some extent, even without the emotional component. Look at art.  Items go in and out of fashion as tastes change, buyers come in and out of the market etc. Russian and Chinese art has shot up recently, other areas have flattened. Not even counting in the auction factor.


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## Andiamo (16 April 2013)

In the space of a week, the horse had done nothing. Might have been ridden a couple of times by staff. This particular dealer keeps them boxed, and feeds a muscle building supplement in high quantities to the youngsters , to try to make it look like the horse is more than it is. But the horse was exactly the same from one week to the next. No reason for an instant £3K jump in price.


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## Goldenstar (16 April 2013)

With me it was on the day I viewed liked the horse a lot agreed to buy rang back that evening to say the vet  would ring them direct to arrange a time to be told they had decided she was worth more .
That's a time wasting seller they exist too.


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## Ferdinase514 (16 April 2013)

This is where bartering comes in!

Unfortunately buying and selling horses is not like shopping in a supermarket, particularly of dealing with prof dealers. 

Agree with tabledancer's reply.

Below 20k poa is no benefit to the vendor or purchaser


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## Dry Rot (16 April 2013)

The official definition of value is "That price agreed between a willing buyer and a willing seller".

Value for a single item can vary according to the purpose of the valuation. Is it valued for insurance purposes, on forced sale, for a replacement, or sale at auction, or (perish the thought!) for meat, etc. as has been mentioned?

So, yes, arriving at the value TO YOU, whether you are the buyer or seller, it matters not, is in reality a game. Some call it negotiating. How many here sell a horse for a fixed price and don't allow for a bit of bargaining?

These matters are a real problem for me and something I think about all the time because I am fairly remote. Fine, if you live in Oxfordshire, where there will be choices. You can state a price, but up here it is equally difficult for a willing buyer to find exactly what they want.

I did sell one pony by tender. I had three equally suitable buyers interested at the price quoted (another good reason not to quote a price!) and suggested to each that they make their best offer. None objected. The pony was sold to the highest bidder. That worked and was better than an auction as I had plenty of time to post photos and videos and research the suitability of those who registered an interest. I didn't have to accept the highest or any bid either.

Maybe an on-line auction is the way to go? That seems to be the way farm livestock is increasingly sold. Bidders have the opportunity to view before bidding if that is what they want to do.

As for inflating the price when the seller sees the buyer's car, I don't see that as sharp practice. It is all part of the game. (OMG, now I'm branded as an Arthur Dailly!). I once sold a dog to a multi-millionaire Japanese motor tyre manufacturer. You think I was mug enough to charge him the same price as the gamekeeper down the road? As the saying goes, if you are expecting to find a mug in the country, it's good thing you brought your own!


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## Firewell (16 April 2013)

I rang up about a POA horse. I could tell by his advert that he wasn't going to be that expensive and the other horses sold by the dealer were resonably priced. He looked nice though so I thought worth a call.
I asked how much he was and the dealer told me that she was selling him on behalf of a client and they wanted an improvement on the price they bought him for... Ok, so I asked what that number was. The number was about 2k higher than my budget. I told her my budget and she said I could come and see the horse as she thought her client would acccept that if it was a good home..
That was for a horse much less than 20k.
I don't think it hurts to check?! The horse in question was a good looking horse but he was being branded as an allrounder he wasn't being branded as a top showjumping event or dressage prospect. If he was I definitly would have known that POA meant out of my budget!!


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## measles (16 April 2013)

I'm going to stick my head above the parapet here.   I don't ever use POA but I also don't put prices on our website.   This isn't an issue as our horses mainly sell through word of mouth and people know from our reputation that we are not ridiculously expensive. For us as a small family business this works well.

As TarrSteps said earlier horses are on a journey of development and education, and what a horse is worth when it first arrives with us is not necessarily what it is worth a week, month, 3 months or years later - that could have gone up or down.   What I will always do is give a price for the horse when someone asks and honour that price, and it's the same price whether you are from a tent down the road or a member of the royal family.   

For example, a client (who may read this) came to see a 4yo we had who was only just starting work over poles.   She loved her but was the next day offered what sounded like a super horse on loan, so she told us she wasn't going ahead with our mare.   The loan horse didn't work out and she came back to us 3 weeks later to say she would like to buy our 4yo and I honoured the initial price despite having had the mare out to her first show in the meantime and realising that she was a much better horse than we had initially thought.   Her new owner got a bargain and we got a friend in her, and one who has recommended a number of other clients to us.  I'd much prefer to do things this way than be sharp with one person and run, but perhaps we have the luxury of being able to take a more up front or if you want to call it less businesslike approach.


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## Andiamo (16 April 2013)

measles said:



			I'm going to stick my head above the parapet here.   I don't ever use POA but I also don't put prices on our website.   This isn't an issue as our horses mainly sell through word of mouth and people know from our reputation that we are not ridiculously expensive. For us as a small family business this works well.

As TarrSteps said earlier horses are on a journey of development and education, and what a horse is worth when it first arrives with us is not necessarily what it is worth a week, month, 3 months or years later - that could have gone up or down.   What I will always do is give a price for the horse when someone asks and honour that price, and it's the same price whether you are from a tent down the road or a member of the royal family.   

For example, a client (who may read this) came to see a 4yo we had who was only just starting work over poles.   She loved her but was the next day offered what sounded like a super horse on loan, so she told us she wasn't going ahead with our mare.   The loan horse didn't work out and she came back to us 3 weeks later to say she would like to buy our 4yo and I honoured the initial price despite having had the mare out to her first show in the meantime and realising that she was a much better horse than we had initially thought.   Her new owner got a bargain and we got a friend in her, and one who has recommended a number of other clients to us.  I'd much prefer to do things this way than be sharp with one person and run, but perhaps we have the luxury of being able to take a more up front or if you want to call it less businesslike approach.
		
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What an excellent approach - a role model to other sellers. 
Honest, reliable, and interested in the long-term (recommendations), rather than simply short-term gains. 
It would still be helpful to have some prices somewhere though, even if just price bands, as I think they would work well in this situation with small price fluctuations due to the developing young horse.


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## measles (16 April 2013)

Andiamo said:



			What an excellent approach - a role model to other sellers. 
Honest, reliable, and interested in the long-term (recommendations), rather than simply short-term gains. 
It would still be helpful to have some prices somewhere though, even if just price bands, as I think they would work well in this situation with small price fluctuations due to the developing young horse.
		
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Thank you.   What has put me off price bands is I always think they will make us look too commercial and it won't fit with what we do.   We are a bit different, hence my thinking, but perhaps I am wrong on this?

ETA If someone has a lower budget I'll always help them look, not necessarily from us or for any personal gain at all, and try to help them find a nice horse somewhere.   I do it because I enjoy helping people and building relationships rather than anything else.   My job away from horses gives me the luxury of being able to do that and not needing to sell.

IMO more commercial enterprises would do well to think to the long term rather than making a quick buck.


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## MandyMoo (16 April 2013)

Totally agree, it always drives me nuts when I'm horse shopping!! I personally have never rung up a POA horse because I either feel it is a waste of my (and their) time, but also I usually feel that POA secretly means ''a hell of a lot, you better be a millionaire...'' haha


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## Andiamo (16 April 2013)

MandyMoo said:



			I usually feel that POA secretly means ''a hell of a lot, you better be a millionaire...'' haha 

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Haha!!! Agreed!!!


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## Goldenstar (16 April 2013)

Measles approach is the taking a long view way of seeing it ,if you are always fair always try to help it advertises your buisness better than anything,  people will recommend you and that's the most effective advertising of all


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## dieseldog (16 April 2013)

I have rung about POA horses when really desperate and my first question is always how much. Sometimes they are about right. but i don't think you ever see really good horses advertised.  the ones that should be POA. The ones that deserve a big price tag sell themselves.


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## Perissa (16 April 2013)

I have never enquired after a POA as I am of the ilk that if you have to ask then you can't afford it.  If you dp phone up and can't afford it you are labled an instant time waster.  

Now the mis descripton of horses is another matter.....


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## humblepie (16 April 2013)

Don't think I have ever rung a POA either.   One horse I had was advertised as "bargain"... I knew the yard where he was being sold from so rang up and I think started the conversation along the lines of, is your idea of a bargain the same as mine.   We discussed it was vaguely in the same range and I did buy him.  Had him best part of 20 years until he died.


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## Dry Rot (16 April 2013)

So no takers for an on-line auction, then?


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## Andiamo (16 April 2013)

in theory, the online auction is a good idea. But in reality, there could be fake buyers posting bids to push up the prices, like on eBay. Also, as a seller, you'd have no control over where the horse goes. Also people could bid amounts that they can't afford, the auction ends, and it turns out the winning buyer hasn't got a pot to wee in (same thing happens at live auctions). 

As a private buyer, I am not sure I would trust an online auction for a horse, maybe it would work for dealers? For buying small items, like on ebay, online auctions work, but these are big ticket items, and there is a lot at risk.


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## Dry Rot (16 April 2013)

Andiamo said:



			in theory, the online auction is a good idea. But in reality, there could be fake buyers posting bids to push up the prices, like on eBay. Also, as a seller, you'd have no control over where the horse goes. Also people could bid amounts that they can't afford, the auction ends, and it turns out the winning buyer hasn't got a pot to wee in (same thing happens at live auctions). 

As a private buyer, I am not sure I would trust an online auction for a horse, maybe it would work for dealers? For buying small items, like on ebay, online auctions work, but these are big ticket items, and there is a lot at risk.
		
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I feel it is inevitable that online auctions of horses will become commonplace. A quick Google brought up this site -- in the USA of course -- sellers can post photographs and videos. 

http://www.sporthorseauctions.com/Online-Auction.html

I have just had a telephone conversation with a European buyer looking for a pony. I know exactly what they want and, although I have ponies for sale, I have nothing suitable and told them so. We did not discuss prices. They are phoning me back after they've decided whether to drive a 300 mile round trip just to look anyway. These are not the sort of people who are put off by POA -- or even that I have nothing advertised!


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## Turks (16 April 2013)

Andiamo said:



			Sorry, just a rant here about sellers of horses...

I'm looking at dressage horse ads, and so many of them put POA, instead of providing a price for the horse. I find it counter-productive. I would prefer just to see the price of the horse to know immediately if I can afford it, before I make a call to the seller to find out more about it, thereby potentially wasting their time and mine. 

One particular prominent seller has written POA on all their ads, and also has written "no time wasters or dreamers". So, I am nervous about asking the price of a horse, because if it's way over my budget, then I'm for sure going to be a timewaster in their eyes. For example, I enquired about a 4 yr old baby, and was told it is £28K.  ... at least I have a good taste 

....then they asked me my budget. Well, I'm not happy giving that out, because suddenly horses can go up in price according to a potential buyer's budget. Why can't sellers just say it like it is, and state the price, in order to filter out the people who would not be able to afford it? I suggested to them in an email, that it would be very helpful if they would provide "price bands" for their horses on their website, and give each horse a rating, so at least buyers know the sort of range it's in, and whether it's worth picking up the phone or not. 

Also, I'll call a private seller, and they'll waffle on for almost an hour about every tiny irrelevant detail, and leave me unable to get a word in edgewise, and unable to ask pertinent questions. By the time they take a breath and stop talking, I've lost the will to live, and just want to get off the phone, and I still haven't found out if the horse is sane, sound, if it's been out competing, why are they selling it etc. 

Sellers - if you want to sell a horse - please be direct, honest, to the point, state the price in the ad, and allow the enquirer to ask you questions and speak on the phone! If this is not something you feel comfortable with, maybe let a trainer that knows the horse take the phone calls? 

Rant over!!!
		
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^This

Puts me off as I automatically assume too pricey for me.


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## armchair_rider (17 April 2013)

I always assume that POA means at least 5 figures. Occasionally the calibre of the horse, or even the seller, is such that you can see why there isn't a price given but generally not.


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## Dry Rot (17 April 2013)

.... and I suppose "Offers when seen" would need another thread....!

But I do understand what the OP is saying. In a perfect market, stating prices would be ideal. A perfect market is where there are no barriers to trade, i.e. everyone has all the information they need, there are no distance barriers, etc. and that certainly doesn't exist in the remoter areas. Maybe where you are in Middle England, but certainly not up here in the Scottish Highlands!


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## FestiveFuzz (19 April 2013)

I'm another one that comes from the school of thought that if you have to ask you probably can't afford it. As such I automatically discount any POA ads.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (19 April 2013)

Ive sold a couple POA. They were 20k+ and well known locally and I wanted to avoid the chit chat and comment regarding price. Also sticking a definite price on a good, popular horse is hard so easier not to state one and wait for punters and any haggling


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## DarkHorseB (19 April 2013)

I remember years ago ringing up about a POA one. I think I was 20 and buying and my first self funded horse. It was more than 20 years ago and it was over £5k for a completely green 4 or 5 year old and I got the very snotty comment "oh is that out of your window?"  Yes it was a long way out of my window!! Like many I think I would always assume now POA means I can't afford as I have never had bottomless pockets.
I think it is a shame if people use POA on horses that aren't mega bucks as I think it puts off I very much doubt I would enquire about one but I don't expect to get a horse for peanuts either.


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## perfect11s (19 April 2013)

Was descusing this today with a couple of friends one of whom said  oh I love the poa ads !! if im bored at work I like ringing and argueing with a seller !!!  I said whatever turns you on!!  and that I had learnt to avoid them years ago as  POA means   Rogues  and chancers ....


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## Dry Rot (20 April 2013)

I had no idea POA raised such passions! Can't say I have ever used the expression but I am often reluctant to post a price simply because I don't know the value! I also enjoy a good haggle, though I know some don't.

I do believe one can tell a lot from a friendly chat over the telephone and, as a purchaser, POA would never put me off -- unless what was for sale was readily available elsewhere with a price displayed.

What has worked for me is a guide price with a comment that offers will be considered. If several are interested, the horse will be sold to the highest offer and I have sold for considerably more than the guide price in this way. 

I think that is as near to being fair to both sides as it is possible to get and the seller can still refuse an offer from soneone who is totally unsuitable without causing embarassment. "Sorry, but you were out bid" sounds a lot better than "I wouldn't sell to you at any price"!

At the moment, there is a huge demand for "safe plodders". I have no doubt at all that if I had one to sell (I don't!), the phone would ring off the hook whether it was POA or any other wording in the advert. If there is a demand it will sell, regardless of the wording of the advert, and those who don't answer POA adverts will miss out!


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## Crugeran Celt (20 April 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			There was a similar thread on here not long ago. The question is not as simple as it sounds so I'm afraid this will be long!

I am a small breeder and increasingly do more with the (few) ponies I sell because I enjoy it and it adds value. I've an interest in the future of what I produce. Mine is a hobby rather than a business but I still have try to pay my way!

OK, I advertise a young horse which shows great promise as an eventer for £3,000. Miss X turns up with cheque book in hand, willing to pay the price, but she just wants a happy hacker as she is a novice and has no ambitions to do more. The truth is, the horse is obviously too much for what she wants but she wants him anyway.

Miss Y, on the other hand, is looking for an eventer and, if sucessful, her wins will be a good advertisement for my stud. She is also a good rider and is completely in sympathy with the horse. However, she, Miss Y, can't afford £3,000. If I had stated the price in an advertisement, she might well have passed by.

Should I sell Miss X a horse which is really too much for her just because she has the money? 

There is a third buyer, Miss Z, who is so keen on the horse that she even offers £3,500 but she roughly handles the horse when she tries it and it is clearly a mismatch. She is rude, late, and critical -- but arrives in Daddy's Porsche and if pushed might even pay more.

I would suggest that the wise seller who has feelings for what they are selling rather than considering it purely in business terms will hold back on price and wait to see who wants to buy. The serious buyer, on the other hand, will have done some research and know what the market price for such a horse will be. If the horse suits them in every respect, they might even be prepared to bargain for a higher than market price because this one is "special".

For those who think more along the lines of "what I can afford", I suggest you do your research and speak to the owner and ask if they would be prepared to negotiate around that figure. Deals are done on that basis every day. To those just wanting a cheap horse, I say please don't waste my time. If the horse you would like to buy isn't worth the time and expense of a phone call, I am not sure I want to sell to you anyway! 

I recently sold an old but perfectly fit pony for £3 (three pounds). She was never advertised and was worth a lot more. Why? Because she went to the perfect home where she will be loved and cared for. Yes, I could probably have got £500, even £1,000, for her (she still does everything and is the perfect child's pony), but would she have got such a good home?
		
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Very informative post and has made me re think my opinion on POA sales ads.


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## Andiamo (20 April 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			What has worked for me is a guide price with a comment that offers will be considered. If several are interested, the horse will be sold to the highest offer and I have sold for considerably more than the guide price in this way.
		
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This works. At least it gives a starting point.


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## Andiamo (20 April 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			Miss Y, on the other hand, is looking for an eventer and, if sucessful, her wins will be a good advertisement for my stud. She is also a good rider and is completely in sympathy with the horse. However, she, Miss Y, can't afford £3,000. If I had stated the price in an advertisement, she might well have passed by.
		
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Your comment, "if successful, her wins will be a good advertisement for my stud" is interesting. It is reassuring to hear you would take that into consideration, and that you would make a sympathetic compromise on price to this type of buyer, with a long-term view in mind.

However, on the flipside, this statement is most relevant to studs. It probably wouldn't be relevant to small / medium sized dealers, where profit seems to be the only thing driving them, and they don't look at horses at individuals - they're just commodities, and these types of sellers don't seem to care about their reputation. It's short term gain all the way.


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## Dry Rot (20 April 2013)

Andiamo said:



			Your comment, "if successful, her wins will be a good advertisement for my stud" is interesting. It is reassuring to hear you would take that into consideration, and that you would make a sympathetic compromise on price to this type of buyer, with a long-term view in mind.

However, on the flipside, this statement is most relevant to studs. It probably wouldn't be relevant to small / medium sized dealers, where profit seems to be the only thing driving them, and they don't look at horses at individuals - they're just commodities, and these types of sellers don't seem to care about their reputation. It's short term gain all the way.
		
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...which rather seems to agree my point that the serious would-be purchasers will usually have done some research. 

It isn't rocket science to find out about people these days. A search on an email address, phone number, or a name, can reveal a startling amount of information and, if you have a post code, you can even use Google to look into their back gardens and measure the size of their swimming pools! 

I'd expect a purchaser to have looked around and seen what other similar examples of the breed are selling for, who is selling what, and what success or otherwise has been achieved in competition. Some people are very bad at selling, others are under pressure to stretch the truth, and others...well...

So that is why I get a bit irritated when the first question is, "How much?"  Is that really the most important consideration? It certainly isn't to me, the seller. To start, I want to be sure the horse is going to a suitable home. That means, not only a kind and knowledgeable one but one where the horse will hopefully realise it's full potential. And I wouldn't be too keen to sell to someone who is obviously going to sell on at some stage and won't have any concerns other than the price where it goes.


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## dieseldog (20 April 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			So that is why I get a bit irritated when the first question is, "How much?"  Is that really the most important consideration? It certainly isn't to me, the seller. To start, I want to be sure the horse is going to a suitable home. That means, not only a kind and knowledgeable one but one where the horse will hopefully realise it's full potential. And I wouldn't be too keen to sell to someone who is obviously going to sell on at some stage and won't have any concerns other than the price where it goes.
		
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As a buyer it really is the most important consideration.  If I can't afford it I can't buy it.  I don't think buyers care about horses fulfilling their potential either, buyers want a horse that will do the job they are buying it for.  A Badminton bound horse is no good to me whatsoever as I have no desire at all to do Badminton.  And as a buyer I always buy a horse thinking I may have to sell it, I have no idea what my future holds and I think there are very few people who can offer a home for life to a horse - what if you die or you don't get on with it?


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## Andiamo (20 April 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			...which rather seems to agree my point that the serious would-be purchasers will usually have done some research. I'd expect a purchaser to have looked around and seen what other similar examples of the breed are selling for, who is selling what
		
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You are putting the responsibility on the buyer to work out the price for themselves? Why? If you are selling the horse, just state the price (or a price band or a guide price), so potential buyers know whether they can afford it or not. Sellers who make buyers jump through hoops, will lose those buyers to another easier seller, because they won't pick up the phone (due to lack of confidence or other reasons). Everyone's busy. People want to scan the ads, shortlist a couple that are within their price budget, and then enquire. Sellers who take the above approach are making it difficult for buyers. If you go back through this thread, you will see nearly everyone agrees that they don't bother with POA ads, they assume they cannot afford them. 



Dry Rot said:



			So that is why I get a bit irritated when the first question is, "How much?"
		
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Yes it is the most important question. Not everyone has bottomless pockets. 
Of course it's going to be the first question...


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## perfect11s (20 April 2013)

dieseldog said:



			As a buyer it really is the most important consideration.  If I can't afford it I can't buy it.  I don't think buyers care about horses fulfilling their potential either, buyers want a horse that will do the job they are buying it for.  A Badminton bound horse is no good to me whatsoever as I have no desire at all to do Badminton.  And as a buyer I always buy a horse thinking I may have to sell it, I have no idea what my future holds and I think there are very few people who can offer a home for life to a horse - what if you die or you don't get on with it?
		
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Good post agree on this  and am sadly someone who has to budget so having a price for whatever I need or would like  is a must,    however there a sizeable number of folk for  who money is a  secondary  consideration these are who the poa adverts are aimed at!! 
luckly there are plenty of straight people with things to sell with a price!!   see it like it view it buy it... and leave the poa to the folk with more money than sense or time to waste playing  games with these shady dealers...


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## MagicMelon (20 April 2013)

dieseldog said:



			As a buyer it really is the most important consideration.  If I can't afford it I can't buy it.
		
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I agree. Its the very first hurdle, if it passes that then you can move onto the serious questions.  I find it shocking some people dont think its normal and very acceptable to ask the price as the first question!  Id be really peed off if someone quizzed me on my horse for ages on the phone THEN asked me the price and say they cant afford it...!


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## mynutmeg (20 April 2013)

To me POA means 'this horse is expensive' into £x0 000's so would never phone to ask the price for one.
I think for this sort of price POA is justified but for cheaper horses you're just reducing your potential market


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## siennamum (20 April 2013)

I have had the experience of ringing for an animal which on paper looks in my price range and having a lovely chat with the owner, we both seem to think horse would suit/ home would suit, but then they tell me the price - and it is WAY out of my budget. Someone may pay that much for the horse, I will get a similar horse within my budget, but the general outcome is that the whole POA thing has been a complete waste of everyone's time. If I have to ever look for a horse again, i will stick to my guns and never ring a POA advert.


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## MegaBeast (21 April 2013)

MagicMelon said:



			I agree. Its the very first hurdle, if it passes that then you can move onto the serious questions.  I find it shocking some people dont think its normal and very acceptable to ask the price as the first question!  Id be really peed off if someone quizzed me on my horse for ages on the phone THEN asked me the price and say they cant afford it...!
		
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Ditto this, the very first thing I'd ask is a rough idea of price as I don't want to waste the sellers time!

I did ring one POA advert from a well known event horse producer and he wouldn't let me get a word in edge ways for a good five minutes before I could enquire regarding price only to find it was several thousand over budget.  I thought it would be, but rang regardless as it can be very hard to price 4yr olds and I had a respectable budget available so wasn't being unrealistic.  I did feel guilty about time, although it wasn't my fault!


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## Holding (21 April 2013)

At the other end of the scale, how would you all advertise a horse that was very cheap or free? I have one that I really just want a good home for, but I don't want to advertise her free because I don't want to have to field hundreds of phone calls from people who are just after a freebie. I was considering putting POA on the ad, but now I'm thinking that might not be such a good idea.


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## oldie48 (21 April 2013)

"Good home more important than price"  "sensible price to the right home" would seem to do the trick.


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