# EPSM horses?



## chestnut cob (1 May 2009)

Does anyone have any experiences of horses with EPSM?  Do the high oil diets really work?  Final question...how did your horse change after a while on the EPSM diet?

Having done a bit of research tonight, following something new instructor mentioned to me about her IDxTB boy having EPSM, I'm starting to wonder about my boy...

- Shiverer (farrier says yes, vet says yes, physio says no just muscle wastage)
- Muscle wastage (physio says because of an old injury and if it can be improved, shivering symptoms should improve...this is a symptom of EPSM isn't it?), especially on hindquarters which has got worse since upping hard feed and standing in during winter months
- Lazy...currently getting 2.5kg a day of competition mix and hard word, no improvement
- Difficulty with canter, which physio thinks is due to injury, previous instructor thinks due to shivers
- Gait in walk can be a little awkward which physio thinks is old injury and muscle wastage
- Difficulty picking up back feet (one esp) for shoeing, again due to shivers?

In fact, looking at one of the articles on the Rural Heritage site, there are actually only two symptoms on the list he doesn't exhibit!  But then I don't want to be a hypochondriac for my horse and "diagnose" him with something he doesn't have.

A couple more questions.. I don't think it can hurt him to try an EPSM diet but can it be detrimental to him if he turns out not to need it (ie, it really is just shivers)?  Exactly what and how much should I be aiming to feed?

Finally...am I just being a worrier?!  
	
	
		
		
	


	









Thanks all 
	
	
		
		
	


	





ETA - I realise I have just made my horse out to sound like he's knackered which is not the case!  Just needs a bit of something else and despite work that would have turned my Welshy into the Arnie of the horse world, muscle is still not developing in the right place.  Should stress he isn't in pain (had a very good and well respected "proper" physio out to him recently, new saddle, teeth done.....


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## hollyandivy123 (2 May 2009)

it would not hurt putting him on the oil and removing the carbohydrate sources. just chaff and oil and a mineral mix to cope with selenium difficieny.
just start switching the feed slowly over the next 2 weeks and you aim to increase the oil to about 100ml a day but do it slowly

if the symtoms improve then it is prob espm then if there is not difference then it is another problem

by the way how old is the  pony? my oldie has arthritus in his stifles and the symtoms are the same as you discribe


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## chestnut cob (2 May 2009)

Hi 
	
	
		
		
	


	





He's 13.  Definitely not arthritis (sp?), my old mare had that and it's not that.

Thanks for the info.  I've just been searching on here and I was under the impression I should be aiming for more like 100ml of oil per 100kg of body weight (so over 650ml per day for him)?

It may not be EPSM but I think it's worth a try.  He isn't on his last legs by any means, he works quite nicely, got placed in our first dressage test a couple of weeks ago...he just feels like he's not "giving" as much as he could and bearing in mind how hard he does try, I think it's more than him being stubborn/lazy.

He does have shivers and the more I read about this, the more it looks like shivers and EPSM are linked.  He was definitely better before I changed his feed to competition mix - over winter he just had oats and chaff.  Seems to be actually more lazy on comp mix.  I'm probably way off the mark but I just wondered if it was possible that he actually can't process the sugars and carbs in a mix very well....

It might just be as simple as he is just laid back


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## fiarmay (2 May 2009)

sounds likely as we had a cob on yard diagnosed 6 mths ago and hers only came to show up when owner put her on competition mix last summer. She's now on hifi lite and bailey's outshine and getting better and better. She did have blood tests and a muscle biopsy which gave definite diagnosis, and with a regime of bringing her back in to work slowly her bloods are now within normal ranges and shes jumping etc.


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## chestnut cob (2 May 2009)

Thanks 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Next question...horse is a very good doer so how do I manage that with feeding a high oil diet?


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## KarynK (2 May 2009)

Here is a link to the univesity of Minnesota web site, 

http://www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/lab/PSSM.html

they can diagnose through muscle biopsy, I would get your vet to talk to Dr Valberg as at least you will know what you are dealing with and it will help the research too.

Only one type has been isolated via DNA and that gene is found in some American breeds.  It is thought to be a fairly universal mutation that is found in most breeds, but at different genetic locations and with differing symptoms, they are searching for more genes.  (Have just had all my horses tested and they are all negative )

Reseach has shown a huge impovement with the diet, 90% fed the diet and given the exercise routine do not have any further attacks.  However with the genetically identified type1 they have found another gene that if present makes the condition much worse.

I would suggest you point your physio to the article!

I can put you in touch with someone with a horse with the problem if you PM me.


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## chestnut cob (2 May 2009)

Thanks for that, I came across that earlier actually.

What I can't understand about this condition is whether it is something that affects them all of the time, or they just have "attacks" like when a horse ties up?  My boy has shivers which doesn't affect him much apart from difficulty picking up back feet for shoeing and picking out, and difficulty stretching through in work.  Now he does exhibit most of the listed symptoms (lazy, sometimes has muscle tremors, has shivers, difficult to tack up [which is what I presume they mean when they say difficulty backing] even though both saddles fit and he's had physio, some muscle wastage esp hind quarters...) however he doesn't randomly lie down, touch wood hasn't colicked and hasn't tied up.  Can horses have EPSM to different degrees?  He shivers but isn't a bad case at all so I presume horses could have more mild or more severe cases of EPSM?

This is what none of the articles seem to make clear - are the horses affected all of the time, do all horses have colic and/or tying up episodes?  

Finally, is feeding the high oil, high fibre, low sugar/starch diet going to do my horse any HARM if he isn't EPSM after all?







I'd really like to see some statistics on all of this but I can only find anecdotal evidence....


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## KarynK (2 May 2009)

Yes there are different degrees of symptoms, this could be down to other genes that make things worse or better or incomplete penetrance (effect) of a single dominant gene responsible.

However as I read it once a horse has a problem then it is recurent and it continues to have attacks unless managed effectively.

The fact that this problem is widespread in the horse suggests that it is a naturally occuring species  mutation.  In the original wild population it would probably never have taken effect as wild horses move constantly and never come into contact with grain as we know it today, so they would not have felt the effects being on a simple sugar, plant fat and fibre diet with regular exercise, sounds familiar doesn't it?

Starch is actually not good news for the horse, ask all those racehorses with stomach ulcers, a horse is designed naturally to ferment plant cells and is geared up to use the volatile fatty acids from fermenting plants as it's primary energy source, most of which are absorbed in the huge hind gut. It has not evolved to use glycogens from sugars absorbed in the short foregut as a primary source, that's what we make it do!  In it's extreme this results in ulcers, headiness, sometimes rashes and itchyness and in some cases colic.

This desease centers around glycogen problems in muscle cels, so if instead those cells don't have to deal with the sugars but use VFA's then hey presto no muscle problems as glycogen becomes redundant, which is why a more natural diet works in this instance so effectively.  

The only real problem you would face is if you are racing him over distances under 2 miles, then he would need sugars!  If not distance horses actually benefit from using VFA's to produce energy, especially over extreme distances. So the diet will prrobably suit him regardless.

The feeding statistics are all over the internet, there are a lot of institutes worldwide looking into diet of the modern competition horse, which is why you see more fibre based competition diets these days.  Ponies in particular are actually insolin intollerant linked to their predisposition to Laminitis.  

Hope that helps but I would contact your feed companies Nutitionalist for more info.


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## Patches (3 May 2009)

I tried P on this diet CC for a while to see if it had any effect on her toe dragging. She had other symptoms too, but not as many as your lad, M.

I really struggled to get her to consume the quantity of corn oil that was required for her weight. It was fine as I started off, but as I built it up....no go. She was having three meals a day to try and split it up, but it was still an issue for me.

She also had a Vitamin E and Selenium supplements alongside the oil. I forget the reasoning now, but I was told it was vital. 

I am ashamed to admit that I stopped the diet over summer and gave up on hoping it would help her. I just couldn't keep the weight off her. 

Good luck with M though. He really might benefit from it. Sounds like a quite classic case. 

I'm sure she wouldn't mind, but I conversed alot with beaconhorse back then who has a horse also suffering with EPSM. She was a valuable asset at the end of a pm back then.


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## chestnut cob (3 May 2009)

I don't stand much hope of keeping M slim if you struggled with Patches!  I've never seen a pic of Patches even looking tubby, let alone fat, and you ride for about 3 hours a day!  

He's getting about a 1/4 cup of oil per day, split over two feeds, and is currently licking the bowl and asking for more so fingers crossed he stays like that  
	
	
		
		
	


	





I've read about the Vit E and Selenium supps and also read they don't need it until they're getting more than 250ml oil a day.  I did buy one but I won't start giving it til then.

I might drop beaconhorse a PM - do you know if she still comes on here?

Thanks


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## chestnut cob (3 May 2009)

Thanks Karyn, that's really interesting.

I've moved him over on to Hifi Lite and Dengie Fibre Nuts so I'll give Dengie a call next week to see what they suggest.  Have also had Saracen Re-Leve suggested so if I struggle with feeding the right amount of oil, I might move him over on to that and just add oil.

One more question...how do I keep weight off an already good doer when I'm literally adding fat to his diet?  There is only so much exercise I can give him and only so many times he can go on the walker in the day!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  My biggest concern is actually putting him at risk of becoming overweight with this diet.  He already has soaked hay, restricted grazing and will have minimum hard feed (just to soak up oil and supps)....


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## Patches (3 May 2009)

I hadn't seen her online for ages but she posted a pic of her new horse a week or so ago, so the answer is yes. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Patches was fine on it all winter and I think she was having 500ml a day (although I only mean weight wise, she wasn't particularly fond of it) but our grass is just so lush in summer being dairy grazing. It was just getting hard to keep her tummy down.

I probably could now, because we do far more faster work, as well as jumping, these days than I did back then. 

It didn't affect her behaviour either but she did seem to have more stamina somehow....although I may have dreamt that at the time.


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## chestnut cob (3 May 2009)

Fab, I'll send her a PM and see what words of wisdom she can offer 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I am going to really struggle with M's weight over summer, can tell already.  He's in from 9am to 6 or 7pm every day, gets a breakfast (half of whatever his normal ration is...now it's half a scoop Hifi Lite, a handful of Fibre Nuts, sprinkle of comp mix to use it up and some oil), soaked hay at lunchtime, then out on very sparse grass over night.  YO wants to move him and his fat friend on to a field with more grass next week but I'd rather he stayed on the mud paddock!  Poor M  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Today M was absolutely full of it and actually kept up with our hacking partner...I'd love to think it's because of the oil but as I only introduced it yesterday, I think the near-gale force winds we have here are more likely the cause


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## Patches (3 May 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Fab, I'll send her a PM and see what words of wisdom she can offer 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I am going to really struggle with M's weight over summer, can tell already.  He's in from 9am to 6 or 7pm every day, gets a breakfast (half of whatever his normal ration is...now it's half a scoop Hifi Lite, a handful of Fibre Nuts, sprinkle of comp mix to use it up and some oil), soaked hay at lunchtime, then out on very sparse grass over night.  YO wants to move him and his fat friend on to a field with more grass next week but I'd rather he stayed on the mud paddock!  Poor M  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Today M was absolutely full of it and actually kept up with our hacking partner...I'd love to think it's because of the oil but as I only introduced it yesterday, I think the near-gale force winds we have here are more likely the cause  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I think the latter is also why Patches felt as fresh as a daisy this morning too. I was trying to convince myself it was because she was pleased to be home and enjoying getting out.....not to mention that she felt better now her cysts have been removed. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I don't think it should be too hard to deal with the weight for you as you do ride most days, if I recall? When P was on the diet I am pretty certain I wasn't riding as frequently as I do now.


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## KarynK (3 May 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
One more question...how do I keep weight off an already good doer when I'm literally adding fat to his diet?  

[/ QUOTE ]

Grain is actually on a par with oil they are just different sources for energy storage and retrival, so providing you cut out grain and substitute oil there should not be a problem with excessive weight gain.  I would talk to Dr Theresa Holland at D&amp;H about the problem and ask her to help you find a good diet that works for your horse as an individual, you might have to experiment a bit but if it works it would be worth it.. 

Personally I would look into the biopsy first and find out if it is EPSM you are dealing with for sure.


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## chestnut cob (3 May 2009)

[ QUOTE ]

Personally I would look into the biopsy first and find out if it is EPSM you are dealing with for sure. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll see how he gets on with me just taking the comp mix out first and just feeding fibre as hard feed.  If it isn't EPSM then what I have is a horse with shivers, who is a bit lazy, is unevenly muscled which will possibly never be corrected (not had him long, my physio thinks it's been like it for a long time), and is a git to tack up despite brand new saddle that fits like a glove...


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## Patches (3 May 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Personally I would look into the biopsy first and find out if it is EPSM you are dealing with for sure. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll see how he gets on with me just taking the comp mix out first and just feeding fibre as hard feed.  If it isn't EPSM then what I have is a horse with shivers, who is a bit lazy, is unevenly muscled which will possibly never be corrected (not had him long, my physio thinks it's been like it for a long time), and is a git to tack up despite brand new saddle that fits like a glove...  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

You make him sound like most mares in disguise!


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## beaconhorse (4 May 2009)

hi

this is a speedie reply as I am on my way out

All the symptoms do suggest your horse may have EPSM.  If he does not have it and you try the diet it will not matter.

However the first thing you need to do it stop the competition mix this is bound to be high in starch which is the biggest problem for these horses.

The easiest and fastest way is to introduce some sort of oil,  pref corn/veg oil from the supermarket.  Start buy feeding 50ml and increase it to 200ml as soon as you can.

You also need to feed vit E and selenium suppliment as horses fed on oil are deficent in these.

It takes the horse upto 3 months to learn how to use the oil but you may see improvements within 2 to 8 weeks.

If after 8 weeks you don't see any improvement increase the oil upto 300ml

I actually had to feed upto 500ml at one time before he was completely happy

Remember in future to only feed low starch high oil food.

pm me if you have any questions and I will try and remember to log on lol


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## chestnut cob (4 May 2009)

Thanks for this, will PM you.  Patches keeps telling me to PM you


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## Tnavas (4 May 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Now he does exhibit most of the listed symptoms (lazy, sometimes has muscle tremors, has shivers, *difficult to tack up [which is what I presume they mean when they say difficulty backing]*


[/ QUOTE ]

This refers to the horse moving backwards - shiverers have difficulty in stepping backwards.

Take him back to a very basic feed - high fibre, oats, oils (but not soya - can cause metabolic problems) Corn oil is the best to feed. Introduce the oil slowly as some don't like the texture. Sugarbeet too is good.


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## chestnut cob (4 May 2009)

Thanks 
	
	
		
		
	


	





He is a shiverer, diagnosed years ago, but backs up quite well.  Due to his general bad manner I had to do quite a bit of groundwork with him so he learnt to back up.  He'll do a couple of strides or so easily but he does find exercises like backing up through an "L" of poles difficult


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## beaconhorse (4 May 2009)

That is a useful link but please note that PSSM and EPSM are different conditions.  EPSM is the one that is moslty associated with our larger breeds


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## beaconhorse (4 May 2009)

Unfortunately not enough is known about the condition to have statistics.
All horses are different  not all horses either colic or ever have a tying up episode..  

Because of outside influences such as a cold day or too much grass they have good and bad and awful days.  However once they are generally stablised it is much easier to manage.  

No the diet will not hurt the horse if he does not have EPSM.

Remember blood tests are very often normal on EPSM horses the ONLY ways of knowing are a muscle biopsy or try the diet


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## beaconhorse (4 May 2009)

Beacon has always backed up really well too, so don't take too much notice of that one


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## beaconhorse (4 May 2009)

Some of the over weight EPSM horses actually loose weight on the diet because you are finally giving them a feed that their bodies can 'use' rather that store or cause problems


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## beaconhorse (4 May 2009)

what you have written here is perfect.........The more starch you have given him the worse he has got..............that makes it very very likely he has EPSM


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## chestnut cob (4 May 2009)

Thanks for all the replies, it's all been really helpful


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## KarynK (4 May 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
That is a useful link but please note that PSSM and EPSM are different conditions.  EPSM is the one that is moslty associated with our larger breeds 

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually EPSM is just another different acronym used to to describe the same condition i.e. Polysaccaride Storage Myopathy EPSM (Equine), EPSSM and PSSM, which have come about because of personal preferences in different vets and labs diagnosing it. They are the same condition with high glycogen concentrations and ganular inclusions on investigation on the muscle.  What slightly differs between breeds is the symptoms of the condition and is why the diet and exercise regime works for them all.

PSSM type 1 is associated with an identified gene mutation on the autosomal dominant gene  GYS1 (responsible for glycogen synthesis)  and worsened by another mutation newly isolated MH.  This GYS 1 mutation is found principally but not wholly to affect horses in some American Breeds and draft breeds and is termed as PSSM type 1.  

If you look on the webiste they are now searching other breeds that have been clinically diagnosed by biopsy but that do not have the GYS1 mutation.  This type is seen in some American breeds, Warmbloods, draft breeds, sport horses etc, these are termed PSSM Type 2.  

Mitochondrial reseach allows the GYS1 mutation to be dated as over a thousand years old and is very likley to be what was described as Monday Morning  and later azutoria in UK heavy working horses for hundreds of years.


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