# Navicular: can the damage be reversed?



## Cinnamontoast (6 November 2014)

Interesting article.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/surprise-surprisenot-really.html?spref=fb


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## Ronalda (7 November 2014)

Yes it is; and there are many more.

Thanks Nic, I have learned much over the years.


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## cptrayes (7 November 2014)

Yes, you'll see that article is over a year old.  That's why we barefoot people bang on about it so much.

I wince every time I read that someone has a horse put down for navicular. They are just going to feel so bad once the rest of the vets and farriers wake up to what can be done :'(


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## amandap (7 November 2014)

I reckon people should also read this and the other 'popular' posts. http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/comparing-heel-first-and-toe-first.html


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## Orangehorse (7 November 2014)

Met someone last night whose horse had suspected navicular, been shod in heart bars.  When I suggested she try barefoot "Oh my horse can't go without shoes."

And there are so many good stories out there ......................


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## Leg_end (8 November 2014)

Yes it can - my horse showed improvement 9 months post barefoot. Incredible really.


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## old hand (8 November 2014)

Yes as can all bone injuries, and it is possible with shoes too but the farrier will need to balance the feet to the x rays and get the pedal bone angle correct.  navicular does cover a lot of different injuries and some will respong far better than others, significant tendon and ligament lesions are far harder to correct, however, I did manage with one walked hundreds of miles in hand and under saddle and he was reshod once sound, stayed sound and in full work, showjumping etc. he could not wear boots as he had very thin skin and they all rubbed.  All our bridleways are mended with type one aggregate so shoeless is not an option round here.  Bloody mountain bikers, I seriously think the local council think they are the only ones who use bridleways.


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## Heelfirst (10 November 2014)

Yes!


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## TheCurlyPony (20 November 2014)

We have just completed our 3 year navicular free.


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## paulineh (20 November 2014)

It has been 16 months since I took my mare BF, 6 months trimmed by my farrier and 10 months trimmed by a Equine Podiatrist. She was diagnosed with navicular (in the left hoof) via MRI SCAN in 2012. After going down the vet route with Tildem etc and Egg bar shoes , first on their own and then with wedges ( which made her worse)I took her shoes off. At first with tine shoes on she improved 1/10th lame on the circle then things went down hill, hence taking the shoes off. She has never really been sound so can we say that Navicular can be reversed ????? . Three weeks ago she had Osphos because we felt that maybe there was now a problem in her right hoof. So far no improvement but yesterday my vet (who came to see one of my other horses) said it can take up to 2 months before we see an improvement.

Many many horse do go sound when going BF but are those the ones we hear about. It is a bit like using Turmeric go onto the FB page and you hear of all the good results but not the ones that do not work.


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## paulineh (20 November 2014)

TheCurlyPony said:



			We have just completed our 3 year navicular free.
		
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I would not say you are Navicular free as there will be changes in the hooves as with humans there will always be some bone changes as we get older.


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## Tnavas (20 November 2014)

Use a bit of common sense here! You cannot reverse bone deposits laid down by the Navicular bone! 

There are varying degrees of Navicular syndrome, some minor with a small amount of rough bony areas or bad navicular where large amounts of bony changes interfere with ligaments and tendons.

I've worked with Navicular horses that have come back into work and hunted for many seasons on Warfarin. Some have been shod to help reduce friction, some have been shod normally.

Once a vet told me that the majority of horses will show some sign of bone damage in their feet. For some that damage increases and affects performance, for others there is no visible sign of damage.

We can halt the progression but not reverse it! 

Recently I read an article about fossilised horse bones from thousands of years back. Most showed signs of Navicular and of Laminitis. So sorry barefoot gurus, shoes are not the cause of these problems.

If your horse is comfortable without shoes that's great, mine is until her work load increases and then she needs shoes. She is 11 and been barefoot all her life, except when in hard work. Her daughter aged 6 has been diagnosed with bi lateral side bone on both front feet, she has worn shoes for only a few months, she was broken in just over a year ago. These degenerative diseases are also about the breed, not always about workload or shoeing.


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## cptrayes (20 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Use a bit of common sense here! You cannot reverse bone deposits laid down by the Navicular bone! 

There are varying degrees of Navicular syndrome, some minor with a small amount of rough bony areas or bad navicular where large amounts of bony changes interfere with ligaments and tendons.

I've worked with Navicular horses that have come back into work and hunted for many seasons on Warfarin. Some have been shod to help reduce friction, some have been shod normally.

Once a vet told me that the majority of horses will show some sign of bone damage in their feet. For some that damage increases and affects performance, for others there is no visible sign of by damage.

We can halt the progression but not reverse it! 

Recently I read an article about fossilised horse bones from thousands of years back. Most showed signs of Navicular and of Laminitis. So sorry barefoot gurus, shoes are not the cause of these problems.

If your horse is comfortable without shoes that's great, mine is until her work load increases and then she needs shoes. She is 11 and been barefoot all her life, except when in hard work. Her daughter aged 6 has been diagnosed with bi lateral side bone on both front feet, she has worn shoes for only a few months, she was broken in just over a year ago. These degenerative diseases are also about the breed, not always about workload or shoeing.
		
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There is almost no correlation between anything but severe bone changes to the navicular and lameness in horses.

There is evidence that it is the ddft in a toe first landing that damages the navicular bone.

Rockleyfarm.blogspot.com have sound five sets of x rays showing remodeling of the coffin and/or navicular bone after a barefoot rehab.

Barefooters do not believe shoes cause navicular, we believe that lack of stimulus to the back of the foot causes navicular. That can happen for many reasons to both barefoot and shod horses,  But shoes are a primary cause because they lift the frog out of ground contact.

OF COURSE additional bone can be remodeled away. It happens all the time with splints and with other injuries. Bone forms quickly in response to damage and the excess is remodeled over a period of a year or so by the action of osteoclasts, I think they are called.

Please don't tell people they don't know what they are talking about without doing your research tnavas. You are VERY out of date if you think warfarin is still a treatment. Now that we have MRI, we know that almost all navicular syndrome lameness is caused by soft tissue injury, not bone damage.


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## Tnavas (20 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			There is almost no correlation between anything but severe bone changes to the navicular and lameness in horses.

There is evidence that it is the ddft in a toe first landing that damages the navicular bone.

Rockleyfarm.blogspot.com have sound five sets of x rays showing remodeling of the coffin and/or navicular bone after a barefoot rehab.

Barefooters do not believe shoes cause navicular, we believe that lack of stimulus to the back of the foot causes navicular. That can happen for many reasons to both barefoot and shod horses,  But shoes are a primary cause because they lift the frog out of ground contact.

OF COURSE additional bone can be remodeled away. It happens all the time with splints and with other injuries. Bone forms quickly in response to damage and the excess is remodeled over a period of a year or so by the action of osteoclasts, I think they are called.

Please don't tell people they don't know what they are talking about without doing your research tnavas. You are VERY out of date if you think warfarin is still a treatment. Now that we have MRI, we know that almost all navicular syndrome lameness is caused by soft tissue injury, not bone damage.
		
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I am well aware that Warfarin is no longer used, I pointed out that I had worked with horses that went sound on Warfarin and carried on working, nowhere did I say anything about it being current.

I DO NOT believe that being barefoot is the be all and end all of horses becoming sound again. 

While bone remodels when bony osephytes  develop they don't go easily. Some if caught early and rested may be re absorbed, it's not a definite happening.

Modern means of viewing inside the feet make it far easier for vets to see and correctly diagnose damage. I've seen many navicular bones with and without damage. We also know that the majority of splints don't go, they may reduce but not go completely. Just as if you have had a broken bone there will be some bone thickening over the break that will never go.


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## cptrayes (20 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			I DO NOT believe that being barefoot is the be all and end all of horses becoming sound again.
		
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Have you ever actually done a barefoot rehab on a long term unsound  horse failed by all the medication and remedial shoeing that money can throw at it?

Come to that, have you ever had a sound hard working barefoot horse? It doesn't sound like it.

You are terribly quick to disparage something you seem to know precious little about, tnavas.


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## Leg_end (20 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Use a bit of common sense here! You cannot reverse bone deposits laid down by the Navicular bone! 

We can halt the progression but not reverse it! 

So sorry barefoot gurus, shoes are not the cause of these problems.
		
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Tvnas - how would you explain these X-rays then? 







Picture on the left was taken in Sept 12 and the right in Aug 13. Horse had been barefoot for 9 months at this point.

On your point that shoes aren't the cause of this condition, I would agree with you, in part. The issue is incorrect foot balance, loading, low heel/long toe etc etc and that can happen in a barefoot or shod horse - this condition doesn't discriminate. However I don't know of any other treatment, bar taking the shoes off, that improves the condition (and trust me I tried everything!).


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## OwnedbyJoe (21 November 2014)

Tnavas I suggest you go and have a look here:
http://courses.washington.edu/conj/bess/bone/bone2.html
Or here:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/684133/bone-remodeling
Or this, from "Physiology of Bone Formation, Remodeling, and Metabolism"
 Usha Kini and B. N. Nandeesh
"Bone constantly undergoes modeling (reshaping) during life to help it adapt to changing biomechanical forces, as well as remodeling to remove old, microdamaged bone and replace it with new, mechanically stronger bone to help preserve bone strength."
Change a mechanical stress on a bone (for example by taking a shod horse barefoot, or by improving the shoeing job in a shod horse and removing the stress of an over long toe and the associated strain on the attachment of the deep digital flexor tendon) and it will remodel in response.
How else would you explain fracture repair? It is in essence just a response to a new strain on a bone... and healed fracture sites continue to remodel for years. I am living testimony to that.
Many of the treatments currently and previously espoused for navicular have little or no real evidence (in the form of clinical trials) behind them (as do most treatments in horses - they're just too damn expensive to run clinical trials with!). Horse medicine is a splendid example of the "personal anectdotal experience becoming the accepted wisdom". And yet, when barefooters propose an alternative, they have to have evidence up to double blinded clinical trial standard to be accepted by some people...


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## Geminismum (21 November 2014)

My girl was diagnosed as a 3 year old with moderate navicular disease VIA MRI in Oct 2013. She went to Rockley in Feb where she came sound. We've had a blip over summer where she went slightly lame again, but I found out it was due to a nasty abscess. She was re MRI'd in September and her Navicular disease has improved. The bone changes are less prononuced and the anti barefoot vet actually downgraded her from moderate to slight (which I have in writing) I intend to have her MRI'd again in the next 2-3 years as I genuinely believe that following a barefoot lifestyle has been the saving of her.


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## tallyho! (21 November 2014)

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES occasionate no YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES

p.s. Tnavas... welcome to 21st century hoofcare...


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## amandaco2 (21 November 2014)

Have seen it, my mare had changes on xrays aged 9. Had xrays aged 17 and no sign of the navicular bone damage.
she had her shoes off at 10yrs old. Now nearly 30 and still hacking out


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## Tnavas (21 November 2014)

tallyho! said:



			YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES occasionate no YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES

p.s. Tnavas... welcome to 21st century hoofcare...
		
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You can write sarcastic comments all you like - Barefoot is just no shoes! It is not the be all and end all of hoof care and there is still a desperately large number of 'barefoot trimmers' out there with seriously limited knowledge damaging feet far more than they help.

Bone remodels all the time but you cannot lose areas of extra deposits just because you believe it so. If you break your arm at any age - the fracture is healed by an additional layer of bone - which when a body is autopsied is still there as clear as a bell that the bone was damaged.

Splints may go down a little as they settle - but they don't go.

The best thing for a shin sore horse is the fact that the body puts down an extra layer of bone - which you can see many years later on many a race horse. Some trainers even encourage the horse to become sore as the new layer of bone strengthens the leg.

AND may I remind you that thousands of years ago - before shoes were even invented - that horses suffered from Navicular, Ringbone, Laminitis - and WOW not a shoe in sight - I wonder how that could have happened.

HORSES ARE PRONE TO THESE PROBLEMS BY THEIR CONFORMATION!


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## twiggy2 (21 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Barefoot is just no shoes! It is not the be all and end all of hoof care and there is still a desperately large number of 'barefoot trimmers' out there with seriously limited knowledge damaging feet far more than they help.
		
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I am not getting into the rest of this thread but my horse wears no shoes (barefoot is just the fashionable title as far as I am concerned) and for  me it is more involved than 'just no shoes' she is trimmed by a farrier and has always been so, I have grave concerns about 'barefoot trimmers' and the lack of training, insurance and regulation. If my farrier creates damage or injures my mare there are ways to claim against him and he could be prevented from working as a farrier, there is no such course of action with a barefoot trimmer due to lack of regulation meaning there is no expectation of a set level of work, care or knowledge. I am also surprised by the amount of people that pay a barefoot trimmer with no formal training or set standards of work/knowledge more than I pay my farrier who trained for 5yrs and has to be insured and a member of a governing body. I can give all the talk about diet, conditioning etc and recognise healthy verses unhealthy hooves/frogs etc and can also recognise common issues but my farriers expertease is invaluable.


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## cptrayes (21 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Barefoot is just no shoes
		
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No it's not.




			AND may I remind you that thousands of years ago - before shoes were even invented - that horses suffered from Navicular, Ringbone, Laminitis - and WOW not a shoe in sight - I wonder how that could have happened.
		
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Because barefoot is not just no shoes. By far the most important aspect is work, followed by diet




			HORSES ARE PRONE TO THESE PROBLEMS BY THEIR CONFORMATION!
		
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All the more reason, surely, not to add to the risks by using shoes if they aren't necessary.


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## cptrayes (21 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			You can write sarcastic comments all you like - Barefoot is just no shoes! It is not the be all and end all of hoof care and there is still a desperately large number of 'barefoot trimmers' out there with seriously limited knowledge damaging feet far more than they help.
		
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You are in New Zealand. It has a big history of Strasser trained trimmers who did huge damage to horses feet in the UK until they were prosecuted out of their butchering ways. I doubt you really have the knowledge of the UK to comment about trimmers over here, but they are no worse or better than farriers, there are good and bad of both.


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## Tnavas (21 November 2014)

twiggy2 said:



			I am not getting into the rest of this thread but my horse wears no shoes (barefoot is just the fashionable title as far as I am concerned) and for  me it is more involved than 'just no shoes' she is trimmed by a farrier and has always been so, I have grave concerns about 'barefoot trimmers' and the lack of training, insurance and regulation. If my farrier creates damage or injures my mare there are ways to claim against him and he could be prevented from working as a farrier, there is no such course of action with a barefoot trimmer due to lack of regulation meaning there is no expectation of a set level of work, care or knowledge. I am also surprised by the amount of people that pay a barefoot trimmer with no formal training or set standards of work/knowledge more than I pay my farrier who trained for 5yrs and has to be insured and a member of a governing body. I can give all the talk about diet, conditioning etc and recognise healthy verses unhealthy hooves/frogs etc and can also recognise common issues but my farriers expertease is invaluable.
		
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Twiggy2 - mine has no shoes on - is 11 years old - is trimmed by a registered qualified farrier and has only had to have one set of shoes on in her life when in hard work during a dry summer - she was footsore and immediately the shoes were on went sound.


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## Leo Walker (21 November 2014)

My horse was crippled by a farrier. One who had won awards and was amazing at his job ie keeping shoes on the horse. His old owner never thought to question why he had to come in and lay down for a couple of hours every day or why he would climb a 4 foot high grassy bank rather than walk over the gritty drive. 

I bought him knowing his feet werent great, I just didnt know how bad they were! Hes now done by a trimmer and on a barefoot diet. We have had a hell of a rollercoaster getting him right, including a stay at horsepital to get on top of his longterm deep seated thrush infection that the farrier had never mentioned. The shoes were kept on crappy horn by an ingenious method of shoeing. I too would have given the farrier an award for that! 

I could go on and on and on about how bad he was and how long it has taken to get him right, but I wont :lol: I will say my other horse is fine having had 2 years of trimming by a farrier in the NE, so no doubt the quality of shoeing makes a difference. I have learnt a LOT! an no horse of mine will ever wear shoes again. They simply dont need to so long as the owner is prepared to put the work in


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## Tnavas (21 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			You are in New Zealand. It has a big history of Strasser trained trimmers who did huge damage to horses feet in the UK until they were prosecuted out of their butchering ways. I doubt you really have the knowledge of the UK to comment about trimmers over here, but they are no worse or better than farriers, there are good and bad of both.
		
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We don't live in the *** wops here you know - New Zealand has produced many really top level horses, scientists - the National Health - I could continue! Unfortunately we have Strasser trained people here, though fortunately not many.

For a country with a population of London we can produce world standard riders and horses. 

World wide the comments on forums are the same! Barefoot trimmers are not all they think they are cracked up to be! Their training is minimal compared to a farriers. They have egos the size of a mountain and skills the size of molehills! 

My farrier can do a far better job as any barefooter thinks they can. He's Welsh and UK qualified. I have a couple of friends who are barefoot trimmers - both trained in the Strasser method and neither of would be allowed to trim my horses. Both do a crap job - one cut her own horses feet back so badly he looked like he was built straight through the shoulder - his picture even turned up in a clinic run by an American show specialist in the poor conformation section. I was stunned that a trim could do so much damage to the horse which I knew well and knew that it didn't have such an awful shoulder.

If you want to jump on the bandwagon with other lemmings thats up to you. I certainly won't be! My four year and 2 month Fulltime trained farrier will remain the only person to do my horses feet. He has done them since her very first trim at 6 months old and I am often complemented on her lovely shaped feet.


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## Leo Walker (22 November 2014)

My trimmer has to train for 4yrs, shes not done that yet, however she is good! She talks me through everything and shows me what she is going to do and why. She also knows about diet and conditioning. She takes photos and I get a PDF file emailed to me with before and after photos and an explanation of whats been done and what we will do in the future, and comments on weigh/condition/diet. I'm happy with that its more than any farrier has ever done, including the "barefoot" trained farriers in the NE


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## Tnavas (22 November 2014)

FrankieCob said:



			however she is good! She talks me through everything and shows me what she is going to do and why. She also knows about diet and conditioning. She takes photos and I get a PDF file emailed to me with before and after photos and an explanation of whats been done and what we will do in the future, and comments on weigh/condition/diet. I'm happy with that its more than any farrier has ever done, including the "barefoot" trained farriers in the NE 

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"My trimmer has to train for 4yrs, shes not done that yet", - and you are happy with that? 

Why has she not done her 4yr training first before going out and trimming someone elses horses feet - what if she stuffs up and makes your horse lame - you have no come back.

Crazy!


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## Alyth (22 November 2014)

Come on guys   this is not NZ v UK   Yes, we do have Strasser trimmers here, and they are very good....nothing like the ones you have had problems with in the UK.  They are not invasive and they have a very good reputation...along with other schools of thought   And I do wish we had a 'like' button as I would have pressed it a number of times through this thread   It seems there are several ideas about whether navicular can be reversed or not....but first we need to decide what 'navicular' actually is.....to me I believe it is 'heel pain', and that can be caused by a number of things which may be relieved/cured by various treatments depending on the cause .....  it may, or may not relate to bone changes, and the bone changes may or may not be changed in turn by treatment, just like a broken leg may be changed according to how it is set.....so can we please stop arguing about techniques when we need to combine our information so we can help horses with these problems to heal and move on to a continued productive life...all methods of treatment have successes and failures and we need to be objective and recognise changes when they occur, not critical of things we have not studied in detail.....can we combine our knowledge and progress?


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## cptrayes (22 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			If you want to jump on the bandwagon with other lemmings thats up to you. I certainly won't be! My four year and 2 month Fulltime trained farrier will remain the only person to do my horses feet. He has done them since her very first trim at 6 months old and I am often complemented on her lovely shaped feet. feet.
		
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I didn't jump on any bandwagon Tnavas, I was behind it pushing the damn thing to get it rolling. I fought like crazy in the early days to ensure that horse and hound online was a place that barefoot could be discussed without people being attacked and ridiculed.

I trim for myself. I haven't had a days training in my life. I am complemented on my horses performance, I am not interested in how pretty the feet are, just how functional. Personally I would be embarrassed to have a horse which went footsore because of dry ground. And I certainly wouldn't be nailing shoes on it before working out why.

How you dare to post on here, from NZ, having never been involved with rehabbing unsound horses, and never having had a hard working barefoot horse of your own, telling people here in the UK that trimmers are no good and that barefoot is 'just no shoes'  beats me .  You've got more nerve than me, and that really saying something!

It is a shame, because NZ has a big and successful record of barefoot and we could learn from it, just not from people like you.


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## Leg_end (22 November 2014)

Here, here Alyth. There is a huge opportunity due to the internet of sharing our experiences with the world. I don't like to make statements unless they are based on fact and I get incredibly frustrated by people who make such broad sweeping statements that have no foundation at all in this day and age. Unfortunately barefoot is not seen as a run of the mill treatment for navicular and until that changes we will only see a handful of proven experiences that it can be treated and cured. My experience proves that navicular disease/syndrome (which is essentially heel pain and can be a whole host of symptoms including soft tissue and bone damage) is not degenerative if the cause of the degeneration is removed. 

Barefoot rehab is not just taking the shoes off, it is a management system based on diet and exercise and unless you are very lucky you will not be able to bring an injured horse back without this system. Normal (ie no injuries or damage) horses seem to cope far better with a basic shoes off management style.

Tnavas - following your earlier comment about the impossibility of navicular bone damage being repaired I'd still like your comments on the X-rays I posted.


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## Tnavas (22 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I didn't jump on any bandwagon Tnavas, I was behind it pushing the damn thing to get it rolling. I fought like crazy in the early days to ensure that horse and hound online was a place that barefoot could be discussed without people being attacked and ridiculed.

I trim for myself. I haven't had a days training in my life. I am complemented on my horses performance, I am not interested in how pretty the feet are, just how functional. Personally I would be embarrassed to have a horse which went footsore because of dry ground. And I certainly wouldn't be nailing shoes on it before working out why.

How you dare to post on here, from NZ, having never been involved with rehabbing unsound horses, and never having had a hard working barefoot horse of your own, telling people here in the UK that trimmers are no good and that barefoot is 'just no shoes'  beats me .  You've got more nerve than me, and that really saying something!

It is a shame, because NZ has a big and successful record of barefoot and we could learn from it, just not from people like you.
		
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My horse is barefoot - all 32 of my school horses and ponies were barefoot - trimmed by a registered farrier.

My beef is with the people who declare that barefoot trimmers are the only ones capable of trimming horses. 

Summer here can be extremely dry - drought conditions and my mare was in extremely hard work, and her feet just didn't grow enough to compensate for the wear.

She went sore a week out from Horse of the Year and being shod protected her feet from the extra wear. The week after HOY she had the shoes removed and  hasn't been sore since. It was just one of those things.


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## Tnavas (22 November 2014)

Leg_end said:



			Tnavas - following your earlier comment about the impossibility of navicular bone damage being repaired I'd still like your comments on the X-rays I posted.
		
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What I see is two Xrays with different exposures - the one on the left shows the darker area - but if you compare the whole Xray to the one on the right there is NO change only a lighter Xray with shadowy areas lost to view because of the light.


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## cptrayes (22 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			What I see is two Xrays with different exposures - the one on the left shows the darker area - but if you compare the whole Xray to the one on the right there is NO change only a lighter Xray with shadowy areas lost to view because of the light.
		
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So her vet can't read x rays 

You take the biscuit, you really do!


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## cptrayes (22 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			My horse is barefoot - all 32 of my school horses and ponies were barefoot - trimmed by a registered farrier.

My beef is with the people who declare that barefoot trimmers are the only ones capable of trimming horses. 

Summer here can be extremely dry - drought conditions and my mare was in extremely hard work, and her feet just didn't grow enough to compensate for the wear.

She went sore a week out from Horse of the Year and being shod protected her feet from the extra wear. The week after HOY she had the shoes removed and  hasn't been sore since. It was just one of those things.
		
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I have not seen anyone on this forum in years claim that only barefoot trmmers can trim feet. You are so.o.o.o.o.    out of date.

So you are another person who ramped up the work quicker than the feet can adjust to, and then say 'they can't all do it you know!.'  And call those of us who can do it names?

Have you actually checked your farrier's syllabus? Because in the UK they spend four years in training with a syllabus that does not cover trimming unshod horses for hard work. Qualified trimmers have a lot more training than the average farrier in that regard.

I'm glad you are happy with your farrier. Not everyone in the UK is so lucky. Mine lamed both of mine.

Could you possibly back off telling people in another country that you are completely out of touch with, trimming wise,  that they shouldn't be using trimmers?  it's annoying me now.  Thank you


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## Tnavas (22 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I have not seen anyone on this forum in years claim that only barefoot trmmers can trim feet. You are so.o.o.o.o.    out of date.

So you are another person who ramped up the work quicker than the feet can adjust to, and then say 'they can't all do it you know!.'
		
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And where did I say that? 

My horse in 11 years has worn a set of shoes for a total of 14 days. She went slightly sore a week before HOY which is at the tail end of summer. With drought conditions her feet weren't able to cope with the ground conditions. If we hadn't been going to HOY I would have given her a few days off to allow her feet to recover but we had a big competition to go to, so she had shoes!  What's wrong with ensuring that my horse wasn't in pain?

I've worked in various yards with 100+ horses and never had problems with shod horses. Therefore I feel no need to become obsessed with barefoot trimming. 

If someone wants to put shoes on their horse that is their choice. As I've pointed out, fossilised horses showed signs of Navicular, yet had never had their feet touched by a human. Therefore it can't necessarily be shoeing that causes these problems


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## Leg_end (22 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			What I see is two Xrays with different exposures - the one on the left shows the darker area - but if you compare the whole Xray to the one on the right there is NO change only a lighter Xray with shadowy areas lost to view because of the light.
		
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OK... Although the change is slight it is definitely there. I'm sure you will forgive me for taking the opinion of my vet (who is on the board of RCVS), two other vets at the practice and an ortho specialist over yours


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## ester (22 November 2014)

Which has been said by several people already - both shod/unshod can not use the back of their foot correctly, shod are probably more predisposed as they don't have a frog on the ground to use. 

my farrier admitted he didn't know enough about barefoot rehab to do Frank, I therefore have a trimmer and a sound pony who will hopefully be hunting on Wednesday and dressaging on Sunday , although I mostly do him myself currently, she just checks up on me.


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## OwnedbyJoe (24 November 2014)

Wow.
I live in Western Australia. We have a drought every year! We also have a farrier profession that is essentially unregulated. 
All 5 of mine are happily barefoot, and I trim them myself, having been trained by an old school farrier who thought all "barefooters" were nuts! He also states that ALL high performance horses need shoes... My barefoot endurance pony would beg to differ, and it fascinates me that  the trim he taught could so easily be used to trim barefoot horses.
It also endlessly fascinates me that people in the UK are told you can't do barefoot because it's too wet, while over here we are told it can't be done because it's too dry and hard!
Fossilized horses with navicular?? Given the subtlety of the changes with navicular those must be some seriously well preserved fossils.
Anyway - back to the remodelling argument... Tnavas, splints, fracture callus and shin "thickening" are actually all examples of a bone remodelling to adapt to the strains placed on it! The bone ends up the shape it needs to be to best deal with the forces placed on it. 
Splints don't go down completely because the very act of throwing a splint changes the attachment of the splint bone to the cannon bone, therefore the stress on that area remains "abnormal". We're just lucky that abnormal strain doesn't make the horse lame.
Thickened shin bones stay thick because the horse stays in work and there is no altered strain to reduce that thickening with a horse in normal work/activity. There is NO biological drive to change that shape.
Change those strains, as we do with changing the trim/taking a horse barefoot, and you would change the shape of the bone.
P.S. Ester, you have a GREAT Farrier. Not enough of that sort of humility in the profession as a whole if you ask me.


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## Tnavas (24 November 2014)

OwnedbyJoe said:



			Wow.

Fossilized horses with navicular?? Given the subtlety of the changes with navicular those must be some seriously well preserved fossils.
Anyway - back to the remodelling argument... 

Tnavas, splints, fracture callus and shin "thickening" are actually all examples of a bone remodelling to adapt to the strains placed on it! The bone ends up the shape it needs to be to best deal with the forces placed on it. 
Splints don't go down completely because the very act of throwing a splint changes the attachment of the splint bone to the cannon bone, therefore the stress on that area remains "abnormal". We're just lucky that abnormal strain doesn't make the horse lame.
Thickened shin bones stay thick because the horse stays in work and there is no altered strain to reduce that thickening with a horse in normal work/activity. There is NO biological drive to change that shape.
Change those strains, as we do with changing the trim/taking a horse barefoot, and you would change the shape of the bone.
P.S. Ester, you have a GREAT Farrier. Not enough of that sort of humility in the profession as a whole if you ask me.
		
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A little confused as to what you are referring to - I know that damaged bone does not go back to what it was prior to the damage! Splints, Shin splints, Navicular bones once damaged stay damaged. 

This is a damaged Navicular Bone - it will not return to the smooth edged bone it was prior to the damage


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## ester (24 November 2014)

I'm really not sure I would refer to is as 'damaged' bone, I don't think that is a very accurate way to describe it.


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## Tnavas (24 November 2014)

ester said:



			I'm really not sure I would refer to is as 'damaged' bone, I don't think that is a very accurate way to describe it.
		
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Well how would you describe it?

It has pieces missing and extra spurs around it - to me that bone is damaged.

An undamaged bone is very clean and smooth.


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## ester (24 November 2014)

Changed. Altered.

I think that is what OwnedbyJoe was getting at, they alter, biologically they may well alter back again or in a different way if the pressure in that area is removed. But for reasons ObJ describes the changes themselves do mean that complete remodelling often isn't advantageous for the horse but that for instance if going barefoot changes the pressures on the pedal bone then it will remodel, as leg-end's x-rays show. The suggestion is that it does have the capacity to return to it's pre-damaged state if conditions are right for it to do so.


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## amandap (24 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			HORSES ARE PRONE TO THESE PROBLEMS BY THEIR CONFORMATION!
		
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If this statement is correct then surely we need to think carefully before we subject them to 'work'? Why do we add stresses and strains to an animal prone to such conformation problems? That statement opens a huge can of ethical issues and worms.
I do not believe the problems mentioned are caused by conformation myself.


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## cptrayes (24 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			This is a damaged Navicular Bone - it will not return to the smooth edged bone it was prior to the damage






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How do you know that it won't remodel to an edge smooth enough to restore soundness?

  If a bone broken right through can rejoin, why can't that edge go smooth again once whatever caused that damage is removed? I lost a whole inch from my forearm bone three years ago. It's back now though.

  I'll bet that photo was taken when the old mantra that the navicular bone has no periosteum and therefore can't heal itself was still believed.  Was that horse shod?  How lame was it?  What soft tissue injuries were associated with any lameness?  How were they treated?

Tnavas, if a weak back of the foot causes that damage, as is likely, and the treatment given did not address the weak back of the foot, as is likely, then you get a self fulfilling prophesy that the bone cannot heal. Until we stop treating heel lameness the way it has always been treated, it will continue to be the case that the bone will not heal.

Barefoot rehabs are showing bone healing, and the more we do the more evidence there will be, I'm sure ,  that the old belief is simply a result of the lack of effective treatment that was given to horses with heel pain in the past.


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## Tnavas (24 November 2014)

Cptrayes 

A fracture NEVER heals without leaving a visible change to the bone. That is why forensic pathologists can use bone injuries to identify bodies.

You break your arm, the repair is visible on an X-ray for the rest of your days.

If bone throws up a lump it stays. If the stress is removed the lump/roughness won't get any bigger unless the stress is put back on it.

Heel pain may not be the root of the problem but the sign that there is a problem.

Example. I have two fingers that permanently tingle - there is nothing wrong with my fingers, I have a pinched nerve in my elbow.

I have never heard anywhere that it was believed the Navicular bone had no Periostium.


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## Lucyad (24 November 2014)

I struggle to see how it can't remodel like a fracture - I have spent lots of time staring at xrays of my horse's fractured tibia.  First it opened wider as the bone died off, then started to knit, chips actually disappeared as were reabsorbed, it grew itself a huge lump of extra bone to support itself, and now the extra lump is shrinking away and the bone edges seem to be reverting to their previous shape.  Absolutely amazing.  Seems the bone has a memory and is growing back to the same shape that it knows it should be. 

Wouldn't the same sort of thing happen to other bones if damaged?

ETA - cross posted with above - is it the case that a lump is never re-absorbed?  My horse's does appear to be shrinking?


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## Tnavas (24 November 2014)

Lucyad said:



			I struggle to see how it can't remodel like a fracture - I have spent lots of time staring at xrays of my horse's fractured tibia.  First it opened wider as the bone died off, then started to knit, chips actually disappeared as were reabsorbed, it grew itself a huge lump of extra bone to support itself, and now the extra lump is shrinking away and the bone edges seem to be reverting to their previous shape.  Absolutely amazing.  Seems the bone has a memory and is growing back to the same shape that it knows it should be. 

Wouldn't the same sort of thing happen to other bones if damaged?

ETA - cross posted with above - is it the case that a lump is never re-absorbed?  My horse's does appear to be shrinking?
		
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See my post above.

Break a bone and the evidence is there forever


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## cptrayes (24 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Cptrayes 

A fracture NEVER heals without leaving a visible change to the bone. That is why forensic pathologists can use bone injuries to identify bodies.

You break your arm, the repair is visible on an X-ray for the rest of your days.

If bone throws up a lump it stays. If the stress is removed the lump/roughness won't get any bigger unless the stress is put back on it.

Heel pain may not be the root of the problem but the sign that there is a problem.

Example. I have two fingers that permanently tingle - there is nothing wrong with my fingers, I have a pinched nerve in my elbow.

I have never heard anywhere that it was believed the Navicular bone had no Periostium.
		
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Tnavas it is absolutely irrelevant whether the profile is the same or not, what matters is the functionality. If the bone returns smooth, then there is no reason that the ddft will catch on it and the horse will become sound again.  

And there is no reason why the bone should not return to a functional size and shape.

Lumps on bones DO NOT  always remain, they can be remodeled over several years.  You are absolutely wrong about that. 

In this country, it is now widely recognised that heel pain causing a toe first landing is the cause of navicular syndrome, though the lameness is almost always caused by ddft damage, not bone damage. Many  strains of the collateral ligaments or impar ligament, caused by weak heels and or/lateral imbalance are misdiagnosed as navicular syndrome.


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## cptrayes (24 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			See my post above.

Break a bone and the evidence is there forever
		
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That isn't relevant. How many people who once broke a leg are lame?  The functionality is what counts. And the original lump from the injury DOES reduce in size, considerably, it is not there for all time.


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## Morgan123 (24 November 2014)

My horse is 14 and has been barefoot since he was 6. This year he was diagnosed with navicular changes and sidebone via X-ray/MRI and is still not right after four months off. Several vets and farriers have all commented that they see these things more frequently in barefoot horses than shod, sidebone particularly. They have no vested interest in saying that, they weren't trying to persuade me to use shoes, they were just commenting.

Just saying. It's really not as black and white and 'barefoot good for navicular, shoes bad' as you're all suggesting. Presumably it depends on the horse, the workload, the farrier, the conformation, etc etc.


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## cptrayes (24 November 2014)

Morgan123 said:



			My horse is 14 and has been barefoot since he was 6. This year he was diagnosed with navicular changes and sidebone via X-ray/MRI and is still not right after four months off. Several vets and farriers have all commented that they see these things more frequently in barefoot horses than shod, sidebone particularly. They have no vested interest in saying that, they weren't trying to persuade me to use shoes, they were just commenting.

Just saying. It's really not as black and white and 'barefoot good for navicular, shoes bad' as you're all suggesting. Presumably it depends on the horse, the workload, the farrier, the conformation, etc etc.
		
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I agree that it's not black and white but the fact remains that on the only, inadequate and incomplete data that we have, a horse is at least four times more likely to return to full work when treated with a barefoot rehab than it is with remedial shoeing and medication.

I would like to see their evidence on the incidence of foot lameness in shod versus unshod horses.   I think you posted what your vets said before, and I think that's the only time I've ever heard it, though I'm open to hearing from other vets and farriers if they believe the same.  One thing is not in doubt, and that's that the lateral cartilages in working barefoot horse are much bigger than those in shod ones, as a general rule. Presumably whatever creates that size could theoretically lead on to side bone, but at the moment yours is the only horse I have heard that connection made about.

It should also be noted that ossification of the lateral cartilages is an entirely normal part of the aging process of a horse.


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## Morgan123 (24 November 2014)

Yes, I didn't manage unfortunately to get the chance to ask them if they had evidence to back this up but will if I get the chance  they were all commenting on their personal experiences.

So what would you do with a horse like mine, that's been barefoot and fine for Yeats and THEN had the problems? Out of interest. 

Personally I think the next things I will try (in consultation with vet and farrier) will probably be shoes for him but I'll see how we go.


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## Morgan123 (24 November 2014)

Yes, I didn't manage unfortunately to get the chance to ask them if they had evidence to back this up but will if I get the chance  they were all commenting on their personal experiences.

So what would you do with a horse like mine, that's been barefoot and fine for Yeats and THEN had the problems? Out of interest. 

Personally I think the next things I will try (in consultation with vet and farrier) will probably be shoes for him but I'll see how we go.


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## cptrayes (24 November 2014)

Morgan123 said:



			Yes, I didn't manage unfortunately to get the chance to ask them if they had evidence to back this up but will if I get the chance  they were all commenting on their personal experiences.

So what would you do with a horse like mine, that's been barefoot and fine for Yeats and THEN had the problems? Out of interest. 

Personally I think the next things I will try (in consultation with vet and farrier) will probably be shoes for him but I'll see how we go.
		
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Has he had an MRI scan?  If not, you don't really know what is causing his lameness, because established side bone and navicular bone changes would not normally do it.  

I also don't know what work he is doing, and how he is landing. Is he toe first?  If so, and he is free of thrush, then I would be walking and walking and walking, in hand if necessary, until he was sound.

If he's heel first or flat, I'd be stumped. If he's got spurs on the navicular bone, I'd be much less certain of a good outcome short or medium term. I've no idea about long term, because the only one I've been involved with was put down after less than a year.

Is it certain that the pain is coming from inside his feet and not the soles?  Is it impossible for him to be a little laminitic?  Does he have good strong heels and a frog in contact with the floor?

So many questions, sorry, but foot lameness is so many different things.

It would take a lot to persuade me that shoes were the answer, but if you shoe him and he returns to work, then handsome is as handsome does.


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## cptrayes (24 November 2014)

Are you anywhere near me near Manchester Morgan?  I am fascinated by lame barefooters and would be really happy to give my amateur opinion if it is feasible.  I've had experience of only two, and for both the answer was lots of slow work on hard surfaces.


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## Meowy Catkin (24 November 2014)

I'm pretty sure that Rockley have had lame BF horses in for rehab.


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## cptrayes (24 November 2014)

Faracat said:



			I'm pretty sure that Rockley have had lame BF horses in for rehab.
		
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Several. They all have the same problem as the shod ones, a weak back half of the foot. I used to own one that went there and I know exactly how he got into difficulties -  an owner at school, too  little work, too little turnout because of wet fields and dark nights, and a sudden increase in activity in March. Bang!   He was a horse I hunted barefoot with no problem at all.


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## ester (24 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			That isn't relevant. How many people who once broke a leg are lame?  The functionality is what counts. And the original lump from the injury DOES reduce in size, considerably, it is not there for all time.
		
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This, just because you can see some evidence of an old injury on xray it doesn't mean it hasn't remodelled at all - and if you were to x-ray over time you would see the evidence changing. I don't understand why that is so hard to get, and ditto what cpt says about functionality - it doesn't have to look perfect if it works again!

I don't think we need to go checking for pinched nerves in their elbows just yet, lets sort out what we do have evidence for first.


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## Morgan123 (24 November 2014)

Sorry don't want to hijack the thread with my personal experience but seeing as you asked cptrayes - 

Yes he had both MRI and X-ray. He has always does a bit of everything, mainly low level endurance, fun rides, drag hunting, and flatwork, and I've always taken care to gradually build up the work with his feet in mind. He has good conformation though you're right that if you were going to fault him it would be that his heels are low. This year we increased the endurance distances but I cannot emphasise how slowly we did so; I was training with another barefoot pony so in both our interest to take it easy. Has always lived out, feet appear incredibly healthy and strong, this year he has had a supplement due to increased work load too. Quite different to the pony you describe hunting above! 

Yep doing LOTS of walking right now; he had a few months off completely (one month wearing gel hoof boots in the day and on straw bed at night so his feet never touched anything hard), gradually reintroduced turnout, and then once comfortable with 24/7 turnout again we then started with e.g. 5 mins walk on no surface or ten mins in hand on a good grass covering. 

Naturally a toe lander. Definitely not laminitis, and we are based in Thames valley. 

He has improved with the above, but is still not right on a circle on concrete. Vet check and further discussion next month....

Just out of interest, how much approximately is a rockley rehab?! Not for him, just interested.


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## cptrayes (24 November 2014)

Morgan123 said:



			Sorry don't want to hijack the thread with my personal experience but seeing as you asked cptrayes - 

Yes he had both MRI and X-ray. He has always does a bit of everything, mainly low level endurance, fun rides, drag hunting, and flatwork, and I've always taken care to gradually build up the work with his feet in mind. He has good conformation though you're right that if you were going to fault him it would be that his heels are low. This year we increased the endurance distances but I cannot emphasise how slowly we did so; I was training with another barefoot pony so in both our interest to take it easy. Has always lived out, feet appear incredibly healthy and strong, this year he has had a supplement due to increased work load too. Quite different to the pony you describe hunting above! 

Yep doing LOTS of walking right now; he had a few months off completely (one month wearing gel hoof boots in the day and on straw bed at night so his feet never touched anything hard), gradually reintroduced turnout, and then once comfortable with 24/7 turnout again we then started with e.g. 5 mins walk on no surface or ten mins in hand on a good grass covering. 

Naturally a toe lander. Definitely not laminitis, and we are based in Thames valley. 

He has improved with the above, but is still not right on a circle on concrete and further discussion next month....

Just out of interest, how much approximately is a rockley rehab?! Not for him, just interested.
		
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I think Rockley is about 175 a week, half claimable on most insurances.

The whole problem, I think, is that toe first landing is not natural and he should not be doing it. But working out why he does and what can be done to put it right is another question altogether.

Going back to your first question about what I would do, I would be walking him for an hour a day two days in three on a road in hand if he was mine, unless he is hopping lame in walk.  

With his history, I would suspect that some time ago he got a bit of thrush or something that caused him to land toe first. Then that caused more heel pain and it became a vicious circle.  Clearly, though, you have an uncommon case given how well he has worked previously.

When you get him right will you come back and let us know what worked?


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## Leo Walker (24 November 2014)

Not about horses but I decimated L1 in my spine 2 years ago, it literally burst with the force of the impact. I have had untold xrays and 2 MRIs. The bone has definitely remodeled, well whats left of it anyway! The fragments have gone and the small wedge shaped bit thats left is a totally different shape, it was VERY rough for a long time and is now pretty smooth. My pretty good orthopaedic specialist told me that 18 months after a trauma bone goes though a dramatic remodelling phase. Might not be relevant for horses, but surely if a human spine can remodel, even when its really damaged and under a lot of pressure from the other bits that aren't healed, then surely a navicular bone could??


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## Cinnamontoast (24 November 2014)

Blimey, if only a barefoot trimmer can trim, I'd best speak to my farrier who's been trimming since he qualified!


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## ester (24 November 2014)

Who said that?


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## old hand (24 November 2014)

Mt barefoot horse had huge sidebones my vet who was older and very experienced just said its the body's response to work and that they supported the feet.  he had a navicular cyst,sidebone and some ringbone and the advice was to gallop him twice a week, that was about 1985 he was 14 and a grade A showjumper.  It worked never a day lame and jumped 1.40's til he was 22.  my vet said we will look him at again if he ever goes lame, he didn't.  he also advised no rest breaks and to ride him at least five days a week which he did until he retired at 23.  I had the same advice from the same vet regarding false ringbone in a thoroughbred, grade B showjumper and he evented and hunted to at least 24.  never a day lame but always kept him fit. In both cases we only found it because of x rays for another issue.  he hated interfering and always advised work and correct foot balance.  His reasoning was that the body normally repairs itself.


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## OwnedbyJoe (25 November 2014)

Morgan123 a toe first landing is not ideal and heel first is to be encouraged but some horses will be much harder to get landing that way due to other conformation issues higher up the limb. We have one at home - she is deep through the barrel, with little short legs and a "gogo gadget" trot, plus a more upright than ideal shoulder and offset knees! She is also my daughter's pony and therefore not exactly encouraged to work correctly through from behind.. As a result of all this she is toe first unless she gets to really powering along. I expect her to have issues later in life, not because she is barefoot but because she is not landing correctly despite a decent trim. However I expect her to last longer than she would if she was shod...
As to remodelling, Tnavas I don't think ANYONE has said that a bone will return to "pre damaged" state. Only that it will CHANGE. Clearly callus remains at a fracture site, but as others have said who cares as long as it works? As a vet I have spent many happy hours watching bones change. You should see the spectacular things that happen when you remove a bone plate from a healed femoral fracture in a dog... At which stage all the stresses go back to being transmitted through the bone instead of at least partly though the plate. Yes you can still see it was once broken, but they are back to working sheep.
Horses with navicular changes taken barefoot will continue to show evidence of the disease process, but changes will take place and if the horse is sound as a result I don't think I care too much if the navicular bone does not look "normal". 
old hand I love your comment on incidental findings on x rays. I have had some interesting conversations with people where bony changes were found on sound horses having PPE xrays... I'm pretty sure if you x rayed me I would have some spectacular changes due to previous breaks and general wear and tear but I am functionally sound..
But somehow I think all this is falling on deaf ears...


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## Tnavas (25 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			One thing is not in doubt, and that's that the lateral cartilages in working barefoot horse are much bigger than those in shod ones, as a general rule. Presumably whatever creates that size could theoretically lead on to side bone, but at the moment yours is the only horse I have heard that connection made about.

It should also be noted that ossification of the lateral cartilages is an entirely normal part of the aging process of a horse.
		
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Except when found on a barefoot 6 year old with bi lateral sidebone on both front feet ! Explain that!

I agree that their could be a correlation between heel pain and Navicular - but what came first the chicken or the egg?

Bone may smooth but if the remodeling is in the way of ligaments and tendons it will cause problems. Which is why splints that are high and to the rear of the splint bone cause more problems than those lower down and forward. The ligaments and tendons are affected.


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## OwnedbyJoe (25 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			I agree that their could be a correlation between heel pain and Navicular - but what came first the chicken or the egg?

Bone may smooth but if the remodeling is in the way of ligaments and tendons it will cause problems. Which is why splints that are high and to the rear of the splint bone cause more problems than those lower down and forward. The ligaments and tendons are affected.
		
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Very good question Tnavas. Is heel pain a cause or a symptom... 
So if bone cam smooth, that is not remodelling? As your original assertion was that bone remodelling DID NOT HAPPEN.
I don't think anyone is arguing that remodelling that gets in the way of ligaments and tendons is NOT an issue. Bone remodelling can certainly be disordered, and can cause problems in and of itself (my right ankle will attest to that). We have argued only that the remodelling seen in the navicular is real, and often correlates with an improvement in the lameness seen with the disease.


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## cptrayes (25 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Except when found on a barefoot 6 year old with bi lateral sidebone on both front feet ! Explain that!

I agree that their could be a correlation between heel pain and Navicular - but what came first the chicken or the egg?

Bone may smooth but if the remodeling is in the way of ligaments and tendons it will cause problems. Which is why splints that are high and to the rear of the splint bone cause more problems than those lower down and forward. The ligaments and tendons are affected.
		
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 NOBODY has said that side bone is normal in a six year old, though actually another thread running at the moment will tell you that it's quite common. I've had a five year old Arab with it myself, completely unnoticed until he was x rayed due to an abscess.

An experiment was done with cadaver legs set in a rig to work heel first or or toe first, by a guy called Rooney.

That experiment showed that if the foot landed heel first, the foot wore out with no tendon damage. In the feet that landed toe first,  the ddft became damaged and then AFTER that the damage to the ddft resulted in damage to the navicular bone.  Heel pain comes first. It causes a toe first landing. The toe first landing causes the damage which results in noticeable lameness.


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## tallyho! (25 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			You can write sarcastic comments all you like - Barefoot is just no shoes! It is not the be all and end all of hoof care and there is still a desperately large number of 'barefoot trimmers' out there with seriously limited knowledge damaging feet far more than they help.

Bone remodels all the time but you cannot lose areas of extra deposits just because you believe it so. If you break your arm at any age - the fracture is healed by an additional layer of bone - which when a body is autopsied is still there as clear as a bell that the bone was damaged.

Splints may go down a little as they settle - but they don't go.

The best thing for a shin sore horse is the fact that the body puts down an extra layer of bone - which you can see many years later on many a race horse. Some trainers even encourage the horse to become sore as the new layer of bone strengthens the leg.

AND may I remind you that thousands of years ago - before shoes were even invented - that horses suffered from Navicular, Ringbone, Laminitis - and WOW not a shoe in sight - I wonder how that could have happened.

HORSES ARE PRONE TO THESE PROBLEMS BY THEIR CONFORMATION!
		
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I think you are over-simplifying navicular.

It is a syndrome with many components to it such as bone remodelling/degeneration to soft tissue damage. Often a combination of these - with some genetic predisposition thrown in if you're unlucky. Bad shoeing, by far, contribute the most to damage in this area of the hoof by constriction. This is the very part of the hoof that needs the most movement and space to allow for soft tissue movement in order to be healthy.

Time out of shoes is the best cure. My farrier and my vet said so. They recommended a qualified trimmer with lots of experience of rehabbing such cases. That was good enough for me and the horse came sound. 

There's no use chucking anecdotes at me Tnavas. The proof is in the horse in front of me.


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## ester (25 November 2014)

I think the thing with barefoot horses having issues, even at a young age is to consider that the problems haven't necessarily occurred because the horse is barefoot, and that it may well have had the same problem - potentially sooner- if it were shod. You can decide that keeping them bare is best for them/less likely to cause issues but it doesn't mean stuff can't still go wrong.


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## Luci07 (25 November 2014)

My pennies worth. As someone who picked this thread to read for information purposes only, I find it a shame that some posters respond without reading another thread properly. It is also becoming somewhat antagonistic as well. The issue over bone returning to its previous state seems to have been misunderstood. Bone will show it has been damaged but that doesn't mean it can't be as functional as before when repaired. My horse is shod. It works for him. I had a crash update course in feet when mine attempted to remove his front leg in a haynet. As a big, developing horse, I learnt that any changes made to trim/shoes/wedges etc would bring about a very quick change. 

As someone who is genuinely interested, could I ask that the post is kept informative and not quarrelsome? There are posters on here with a great deal of knowledge and I am grateful that they are sharing this.


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## criso (25 November 2014)

cinnamontoast said:



			Blimey, if only a barefoot trimmer can trim, I'd best speak to my farrier who's been trimming since he qualified!
		
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You've obviously been lucky but I have had some horrific experiences with several Hertfordshire farriers and a barefoot horse despite years of 'experience' on their part.  

There is only one person in the area (who happens to be a UKNHCP trimmer) that I will now trust with my horses.  There are plenty of farriers and trimmers I won't.

Going back to whether navicular syndrome is more prevalent in barefoot or shod horses I know of more in shod horse BUT that's because I know of more people with shod horses generally in real life.  

I also know a bit more background on some of the other horses that were barefoot that went through Rockley.  Some were generally tricky horses and when returned it took a long time and significant changes to their management and environment for them to be able to function at their best.  Without all these pieces in place they were not a sound horse.

As for whether shoes cause it per say, when mine was having foot problems (soft tissue damage to the back of the foot caught before they caused changes to the bone), the professionals treating him at the time were clear that he had a weak foot generally and they believed being shod at under 2 years as an ex racer would have contributed to the poor development of his feet.


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## Orangehorse (25 November 2014)

I guess that an unshod horse kept in a small paddock and not exercised muchor its feet given regular attention is going to end up with long toes and weak heels, so they would be subject to foot problems as any horse shod all year round and not given a break from shoes.

If you read Dr. Deb Bennett's articles, she describes how a foot in shoes will gradually "creep forward" and that farriers are aware of it.  She doesn't advocate barefoot, but she does say that horses should have a rest from shoes every year.


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## tallyho! (25 November 2014)

Orangehorse said:



			If you read Dr. Deb Bennett's articles, she describes how a foot in shoes will gradually "creep forward" and that farriers are aware of it.  She doesn't advocate barefoot, but she does say that horses should have a rest from shoes every year.
		
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Not only Dr Bennet but the oldest farriery books say that is the case. Sadly, many farriers and owners seem to have glossed over this very fact. Shoeing horses all year round is a new thing. Never did that when I was a kid growing up in Lincolnshire. We had shoes in the summer and bare in the winter.

I suppose now that competitions are year round, shoes are a necessity.

This is why I decided that for me, at least, shoes are not a necessity and I prefer to keep mine barefoot. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It's just how I prefer to do things.

Some people prefer to shoe. That is no business of mine.

When it comes to criticising what people want to do, I do have a problem with that.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (25 November 2014)

I have never actually heard a farrier advise anyone to remove shoes due to the "evils" of shoeing, if one takes it to its logical conclusion everyone should aim for barefoot and only use shoes as a last resort, not the other way round.
One of the jobs of a farrier is to trim young horses, and if they can t do that, or do a paddock trim, then no way would I want them shoeing my horse. We don t have any trimmers round here, there is no demand, the standard of farrierry locally is very good, world class even, with few exceptions.


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## Goldenstar (25 November 2014)

Orangehorse said:



			I guess that an unshod horse kept in a small paddock and not exercised muchor its feet given regular attention is going to end up with long toes and weak heels, so they would be subject to foot problems as any horse shod all year round and not given a break from shoes.
		
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 Exercise is the key to improving shoe sick feet it simply does not work as well if you just turn the horse out in the sort of turnout most horses in livery have .
The first yard I worked on still turned out hunters on the hill in summer they were hacked to gate we met the farrier the shoes came off and they where just left on a huge area of hill and moor .
They came in fit , a good weight and with great feet I think we caught them once for a trim during their feral holiday these horse were really moving and foraging and it did them a lot of good , if you brush over the lack of proper twice daily checks .
A shoeing break within each year is vital IMO but that does not mean you won't be able to work the horse at some level during this time.


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## Orangehorse (25 November 2014)

My farrier suggested that he removed my horse's shoes last December to give his feet a rest.  I was concerned as I thought they would get bruised.  He said if that was all that was worrying me to go ahead.  Since then I have ridden in boots/barefoot and he has been sound all along.


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## tallyho! (25 November 2014)

Bonkers2 said:



			I have never actually heard a farrier advise anyone to remove shoes due to the "evils" of shoeing, if one takes it to its logical conclusion everyone should aim for barefoot and only use shoes as a last resort, not the other way round.
One of the jobs of a farrier is to trim young horses, and if they can t do that, or do a paddock trim, then no way would I want them shoeing my horse. We don t have any trimmers round here, there is no demand, the standard of farrierry locally is very good, world class even, with few exceptions.
		
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How do you know there aren't many trimmers?


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## tallyho! (25 November 2014)

My friend has a good farrier. He doesn't cover my area but he was my farrier when I stabled my horse at her yard. He was the one who suggested barefoot for my navi horse.

He always advocated a rest from shoes. He never mentioned diet because he didn't like to voice his opinion but when asked, he had a wealth of knowledge about nutrition. His apprentices do now ask about diet and unsurprisingly say that grains and high sugar/starch diets are no good for feet.

I think its fair to say, each farrier or trimmer is an individual and you can't gauge and benchmark each farrier or trimmer because there is no benchmark or standard gauge.

As long as your horse is sound and healthy, perhaps, stick to your guns. We are dealing with such variables, even anecdotes can be extrapolated as useful evidence. 

I will say this though... allow nature to resolve any issues. If she can't then look to support her.


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## cptrayes (25 November 2014)

Bonkers2 said:



			I have never actually heard a farrier advise anyone to remove shoes due to the "evils" of shoeing,.
		
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Seriously?  You've never heard of one horse where a farrier said it needed a period out of shoes before he could shoe it again?


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## cptrayes (25 November 2014)

Bonkers2 said:



			if one takes it to its logical conclusion everyone should aim for barefoot and only use shoes as a last resort, not the other way round.
.
		
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I'm really struggling to see anything wrong with this suggestion.

Even if they do no harm, why pay for shoes if the horse and you don't need them?


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## OwnedbyJoe (26 November 2014)

I think whoever made the comment about not taking horses out of shoes for a break every year has hit upon a key issue... Having horses in shoes year round is a new development and there is no doubt you can see changes in the shape and balance of a foot (particularly the heels) after even a short spell out of shoes. Many horses with a weak caudal foot (if you believe in such a thing) would benefit from even 6 weeks out of shoes. I know all the farriers I dealt with in the UK used to recommend it (that was 20+ years ago though).
That of course then spills into a discussion about the benefits to long term soundness of giving horses a proper, decent spell every year (as in several weeks letting down in a paddock, not just 2-3 weeks off in their usual routine, just not being ridden which I suspect some people now consider to be a "spell"). There is no doubt that a proper spell benefits the whole of the body not just the feet.
I found myself thinking about this thread at 3 a.m. believe it or not... Thinking about the fact that the examples Tnavas quoted about shin thickening and splints are actually examples of bone remodelling in and of themselves! Bone is much more dynamic than we give it credit for, and not all bone remodelling is pathogenic. Then of course there are examples of where REMOVAL of stress is pathological, as in disuse atrophy (which is why we remove bone plates from fracture sites - when all the mechanical stress is being borne by the plate not the bone, the bone will weaken). Because of course there is normal stress, and abnormal stress.
Anyway - I hope we can keep this civil, as others have expressed. 
I can't now recall who said it about horses staying sounder for longer barefoot even if they have other issues which predispose them to lameness - this is certainly what I hope to achieve with our delightful but distinctly wonky legged little mare. She is a case study in progress as we speak since she looks set for an endurance career.. I can only imagine the concussion and toe first landings she would exhibit with shoes on... Even with good hoof balance. She is just built to land that way, and it is a constant work in progress to minimise that.


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## Tnavas (26 November 2014)

Once upon a time horses were turned out for a period of time - hunters all summer, we turned horses away for two weeks. Shoes came off but the hunters had grass tips fitted to protect toes.

I also remember a vet telling me that the majority of horses will Xray showing some damage to the Navicular bone - some may never have any problems, some it will develop more. What causes the lameness? Soft tissue damage or bone damage? Does one lead to the other?


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## OwnedbyJoe (26 November 2014)

See, I don't think 2 weeks is long enough without shoes to make any real difference to the feet. 
As for which causes pain, my long ago understanding of bone innervation and pain is that pain only arises from bone when either there is significant bone destruction (infection, neoplasia) or major disruption of the periosteum (fracture, bone exposure to the air).
So, bony changes which are gradual in onset and which the periosteum can accommodate are not painful per se. 
Pain in arthritis for example: the bone may appear significantly deformed but the pain comes from the degradation of joint fluid and the abnormal movement of cartilage as a result of the bone deformity affecting the way the joint behaves.
Soo.. I would say the pain in navicular results from the soft tissue damage in the DDFT and the soft tissues of the heel, not from the changes to the navicular bone itself. Of course, you also get degeneration of the cartilage over the navicular bone which will be painful, but for this discussion cartilage would actually be classified as a soft tissue...
As for which leads to the other... I don't think I'd like to be definitive on that! Better brains than mine struggle with that one. Personally... toe first landing leads to compression of the bone by the DDFT, which then leads to changes in the shape of the bone, which then leads to damage to the ligaments supporting the navicular bone.
Correcting the toe first landing and improving the strength of the caudal foot and digital cushion removes the pressure from the bone caused by the DDFT, allowing the bone to remodel, allowing the ligaments to improve.
There's more to it than that of course, involving among other things impaired blood supply and the action of the altered bone on the caudal part of the coffin joint.


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## tallyho! (26 November 2014)

OwnedbyJoe that does seem to be where the evidence is certainly from what is available on line.

To me, contraction of the heels either by shoeing or caudal hoof pain will cause damage to that area... the bone itself is a weird little thing that sort of acts as a fulcrum for the tendon. It's when the space the tendon has to work in is pinched or compromised in some way, that is when problems start to occur. It could be nothing at first, just toe dragging perhaps or tripping occasionally but then it starts to get more serious as the soft tissue around the tendon and the bone constricts movement and gets inflamed. 

I wish I knew how to post images on this new forum, then I could illustrate what I mean. 

Anyway, it's completely reversible as if you remove the constriction (shoes) or pain (thrush/infection in the area) then the heels can start to work again and they expand and the inflammation will go down and the structures will get stronger with exercise and there wil be space for all the foot mechanism to work freely again. That's why removing shoes works, if indeed shoes have caused the constriction/contraction.

however, if there are other issues like a frog infection then that needs addressing too.


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## cptrayes (26 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			I also remember a vet telling me that the majority of horses will Xray showing some damage to the Navicular bone - some may never have any problems, some it will develop more. What causes the lameness? Soft tissue damage or bone damage? Does one lead to the other?
		
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The Rooney experiments I mentioned above shows that the  tendon damage eventually leads on to bone damage to the navicular. The tendon damage comes first.

The fact that fifty per cent of horses can have bone damage with no lameness and that there is precious little correlation between bone damage and level of lameness, and the MRI results coming thick and fast now, all show that lameness originating in the   navicular area is almost always caused by a soft tissue injury.

Fix the soft tissue injury and the reason why it happened - the toe first landing - and most horses come sound again.


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## Wagtail (26 November 2014)

Bonkers2 said:



			I have never actually heard a farrier advise anyone to remove shoes due to the "evils" of shoeing, if one takes it to its logical conclusion everyone should aim for barefoot and only use shoes as a last resort, not the other way round.
One of the jobs of a farrier is to trim young horses, and if they can t do that, or do a paddock trim, then no way would I want them shoeing my horse. We don t have any trimmers round here, there is no demand, the standard of farrierry locally is very good, world class even, with few exceptions.
		
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My farrier has suggested taking shoes off on several occasions. He is always telling me that shoeing is actually not good for the long term health of feet and should be done only if a horse really needs them. He said that on the old days, horses would routinely be turned away, depending on their job (e.g. hunters turned away for the summer) and their shoes removed, and that their feet were much better as a result. If a horse on my yard is being shod and he feels it would do well without shoes, he will always tell me and I will pass that on to the owner to make a decision. We only have one horse shod all round on the yard. Two are shod with just fronts and the rest are barefoot.


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## tallyho! (27 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Once upon a time horses were turned out for a period of time - hunters all summer, we turned horses away for two weeks. Shoes came off but the hunters had grass tips fitted to protect toes.

I also remember a vet telling me that the majority of horses will Xray showing some damage to the Navicular bone - some may never have any problems, some it will develop more. What causes the lameness? Soft tissue damage or bone damage? Does one lead to the other?
		
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I don't think that is cause to think it's a bone disease/issue. How long must there have been constriction of the soft tissues to contribute to bony changes to that bone? The horse was probably showing signs of pain long before. It would be interesting to hear the vets recount of what the horses' feet were like at the time of the x-ray. Were they shod? Were they already receiving remedial shoeing? On bute trial?

Because when mine was diagnosed he was about to have pads and was already wearing shoes that were thicker at the back to lift the heel! He was on bute to relieve the pain. He toe-dragged. Stood on the banks of his bed. Now I know better, that was madness! I get why the farrier thought lifting the heel would relieve the pain but he was putting more pressure on the toes and all the foot needed was more space in the heels for everything to FIT in properly. 

Anyway, he was sound enough to hunter trial 10 months later. On very dry ground with no shoes on and came 3rd.


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