# Livery with no grazing.



## snooch (9 January 2015)

Hi, I am new here so apologies if I have posted this in the wrong section.
I am wanting some thoughts on what you people think about Livery without grazing.
I am seriously thinking of starting up a small livery yard with room for approximately 15 horses, although there are no field grazing the yard does have a medium sized paddock and a full sized menage, it also boasts of lots of off road hacking as it is a countryside location.

My question is (before I plough lots of money into it ) would you be happy to stable your horse at a yard with no grazing and only limited turn out?

Thank you in advance for any replies.


----------



## Tiddlypom (9 January 2015)

No.


----------



## Jo1987 (9 January 2015)

No, sorry!


----------



## crabbymare (9 January 2015)

not what you want to hear but there is no way would i be interested in that


----------



## Akkalia1 (9 January 2015)

I wouldn't even consider it I'm afraid.


----------



## joulsey (9 January 2015)

Nope!


----------



## Fools Motto (9 January 2015)

Not for me. (What is the difference between no grazing and limited turn out in this instance? - Are you turning out in the arena?)


----------



## snooch (9 January 2015)

Fools Motto said:



			Not for me. (What is the difference between no grazing and limited turn out in this instance? - Are you turning out in the arena?)
		
Click to expand...

Would be limited turn out in the paddock.

Would anyone consider it if there was seperate grazing avaiable in another location?


----------



## GeorgeyGal (9 January 2015)

No, turnout with company is top of my list.


----------



## 9tails (9 January 2015)

No grazing whatsoever?  Not something I'd ever consider.  We're on restricted turnout at the moment due to waterlogging but get 24/7 in summer.


----------



## acorn92x (9 January 2015)

No way on this planet would I consider that, regardless of how good the facilities were I'm afraid. Horses need turnout and time to be horses.


----------



## snooch (9 January 2015)

Thank you all very much.
I have perhaps saved lots of money lol


----------



## NeedNewHorse (9 January 2015)

As far as I'm concerned a livery without grazing is as much use as a car with no wheels!


----------



## 9tails (9 January 2015)

snooch said:



			Would be limited turn out in the paddock.

Would anyone consider it if there was seperate grazing avaiable in another location?
		
Click to expand...

Again, no.  You have to get the horse to another location and that would be every day.  Probably on roads and would be time consuming and possibly dangerous.


----------



## forelegs (9 January 2015)

Never, sorry - turnout is near the top of my list!


----------



## Wagtail (9 January 2015)

Actually, yes under certain circumstances, for example if I had a lami prone horse, and there are plenty people who do. Grazing is not always what it's cracked up to be. I would think there is a market for a yard specialising in horses that need to be kept primarily off grass. You could turn the paddock into a track system with varied surfaces (sand, gravel, concrete, embankments and the occasional grassy patch. You could put forage stations at various points to keep the horses moving. So before writing it off I would do a bit of market research in the area - perhaps put up a poll here in one of the regional forums.


----------



## ihatework (9 January 2015)

Not in a million years


----------



## Princess Rosie (9 January 2015)

I can't imagine anyone would want to move on sorry but at least as you say you have saved yourself a lot of money. Turnout would be the most important item on everyone's list.


----------



## snooch (9 January 2015)

Before completely scrapping the idea, how do I put on a poll in a regional area asking about "all weather" turnout as apposed to grass grazing?


----------



## MrsNorris (9 January 2015)

Wagtail said:



			Actually, yes under certain circumstances, for example if I had a lami prone horse, and there are plenty people who do. Grazing is not always what it's cracked up to be. I would think there is a market for a yard specialising in horses that need to be kept primarily off grass. You could turn the paddock into a track system with varied surfaces (sand, gravel, concrete, embankments and the occasional grassy patch. You could put forage stations at various points to keep the horses moving. So before writing it off I would do a bit of market research in the area - perhaps put up a poll here in one of the regional forums.
		
Click to expand...

You couldn't really put 15 horses in one paddock though. I would love grass-free turnout, but not on a tiny little area, think you still need plenty of space with that many horses, imagine the mess they would make crammed onto such a small area, never mind the stress and fighting that would probably ensue. Defiantly not for me...


----------



## nianya (9 January 2015)

I can live without grazing, where my horse is now has none because the climate is too dry to support much.  But turnout on a decent size paddock/lot/pasture with companions is a must.  I prefer she is never in a stall personally.

So, if you mean horses would be in stalls with only runs.  No way.  But turnout with no grazing is fine.  So...how big is the paddock and would they be on it all day?


----------



## snooch (9 January 2015)

nianya said:



			I can live without grazing, where my horse is now has none because the climate is too dry to support much.  But turnout on a decent size paddock/lot/pasture with companions is a must.  I prefer she is never in a stall personally.

So, if you mean horses would be in stalls with only runs.  No way.  But turnout with no grazing is fine.  So...how big is the paddock and would they be on it all day?
		
Click to expand...


I am due to go down to the farm house tomorrow so will measure the paddock and the proposed menage then, along side the paddock is also a huge orchard with apple tree's although these are separated by a fence I guess something could be done to bring them together, although I would have to get rid of the apple trees.
As it stands now I think the paddock would only be useful for limited turnout per horse or pair or horses.


----------



## Melody Grey (9 January 2015)

Waits to be shot down here... But don't livery yards need local authority licenses and would a yard without turnout be eligible for a license?


----------



## snooch (9 January 2015)

Melody Grey said:



			Waits to be shot down here... But don't livery yards need local authority licenses and would a yard without turnout be eligible for a license?
		
Click to expand...

Not as yet but I do agree that livery yards need some kind of licensing to ensure the health and happiness of the horses.


----------



## Melody Grey (9 January 2015)

snooch said:



			Not as yet but I do agree that livery yards need some kind of licensing to ensure the health and happiness of the horses.
		
Click to expand...

I think I may be confusing livery yards with riding school licensing- not sure whether riding schools require turnout either? I'd hope so!!


----------



## Boxers (9 January 2015)

hollybear said:



			You couldn't really put 15 horses in one paddock though. I would love grass-free turnout, but not on a tiny little area, think you still need plenty of space with that many horses, imagine the mess they would make crammed onto such a small area, never mind the stress and fighting that would probably ensue. Defiantly not for me...
		
Click to expand...


I very much doubt OP was planning to put all the 15 horses out at once!

The yard I was on had limited turnout in winter. All horses stayed in from mid Oct to mid April and had max 2 hrs per day in one of 2 small paddocks.

The horses got used to it, it was very well run and they knew the routine. Most horses were ridden each day too.

I think it could work, but you would have to b mvery careful about how the paddock coped. It would soon turn to a big bog and unusable.


----------



## Merrymoles (9 January 2015)

Not for me, I am afraid. I'd rather have no stable than no turnout if push came to shove.


----------



## snooch (9 January 2015)

Boxers said:



			I very much doubt OP was planning to put all the 15 horses out at once!

The yard I was on had limited turnout in winter. All horses stayed in from mid Oct to mid April and had max 2 hrs per day in one of 2 small paddocks.

The horses got used to it, it was very well run and they knew the routine. Most horses were ridden each day too.

I think it could work, but you would have to b mvery careful about how the paddock coped. It would soon turn to a big bog and unusable.
		
Click to expand...


I definitely would not be turning them all out at once lol

I guess I will have to give it lots more serious thought because with the absence of any grazing in summer too (unless I can convince the farmer up the lane to rent me the field next to the paddock) the hourses will be stuck with a paddock, I could install a horse walker too but not too sure how people feel about them.
In the venture I am thinking of undertaking I would actually be living on site in the farmhouse so would be there 24/7 to make sure things are all in order and run well .


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (9 January 2015)

Would suit me but I hardly use my turnout!


----------



## milos (9 January 2015)

Depend were the location is ie I what competition do you have. A yard near me does limited turnout in summer and no turnout in winter but they do have a treadmill . It is a competition yard and all the horses seem very settled it is well run by an experienced person. It is full and prob has a waiting list. Would I stable my horse there yes I would as all the horses seem very happy and it is very well run but I think having a treadmill makes a huge difference and  that the person running it is very experienced and  as they are expensive completion types the horses are ridden most days


----------



## Evie91 (9 January 2015)

Another no I'm afraid. For me turnout is a neccessity and non negotiable! 
Maybe of interest if horse is on box rest.....


----------



## snooch (9 January 2015)

milos said:



			Depend were the location is ie I what competition do you have. A yard near me does limited turnout in summer and no turnout in winter but they do have a treadmill . It is a competition yard and all the horses seem very settled it is well run by an experienced person. It is full and prob has a waiting list. Would I stable my horse there yes I would as all the horses seem very happy and it is very well run but I think having a treadmill makes a huge difference and  that the person running it is very experienced and  as they are expensive completion types the horses are ridden most days
		
Click to expand...

Personally I am a very experienced horse woman but not so arrogant as to say I could not learn from other people because I am learning all the time lol.

I have already sourced out the competition and to be honest there does not seen to be any, in that i mean that there are plenty of horses needing stables in my area and most people either have a waiting list or are turning people away


----------



## Darkwater (9 January 2015)

Another definite no from me too. For the odd person it might be ok, and if it was just for your own horses you could probably make it work, but for 15 - absolutely not. I very much doubt you would find that many people to fill the yard anyway judging by the responses to this post.


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (9 January 2015)

I would set yourself up as a comp yard. My horses when competing don't really go out. Id rather ride and use a walker


----------



## WelshD (9 January 2015)

If the paddock is very small I would make it the same all weather surface and drainage as a manege as a paddock will become a dust bath or mud bath otherwise

You could always give two boxes per livery so they have individual storage which would cut down on numbers (though also your profit) but would make managing turnout much easier

The set up would suit one of my ponies which is probably why I'm not as blunt as other people but not the majority of other horses I can think of though

You are either looking for high level competition liveries - the sort that exercise their horses a lot and can live with limited turnout as long as the other facilities are high quality or you are looking for bin end budget liveries who cant afford better

I'm not sure about licences but certainly there are plenty of racing yards, showing yards and competition yards with little or even no turnout - one racing yard recently came on the market - 40 boxes and a turnout area 20 x 50m so I cant see there being minimum turnout standards for yards


----------



## caileag (9 January 2015)

If I was in your shoes OP I would try to sort something out with that farmer's field up front. If it's not possible to rent then I would walk away from this. As a business venture the number of potential clients would be very limited.


----------



## milos (9 January 2015)

Then if three are waiting lists then I would say there is a need. The other things I think that make it a success are that they only offer full livery ie I would imagine that this means that routines are stuck to so all the horses know what's happening and the yard do feeds ie owners don't get involved in feeds  and what the horses are fed that way there aren't any hyper horses as the yard manager monitors all feeds and knows how to feed such horses. All the horses as I say seem very settled and look amazing so yes if you feel you have what it takes then why not give it a go.


----------



## Calvo (9 January 2015)

grazing all year round for my dressage horse is a must so no


----------



## ironhorse (9 January 2015)

Even if you could get grazing nearby it's a pain to move the horses around. I worked at a yard that had about 5 acres of their own grazing on site for 30 horses (it was a riding school and they did have 2 arenas and an orchard that was used for turnout in the summer). They rented 20 acres about a mile away down a bridleway, but it was a real chore fetching horses from the rented land when they were needed for lessons - we used to get a lift down there with the tack and then ride and lead back, but it was a bit chaotic at the best of times, and I'm not sure liveries would want to do this for their own horses. They had some more land even further away and I remember fetching my horse back from there after he'd had a holiday and having to hack him back across a motorway island :0
Unless there is a market for something like hunter livery locally and you have the experience/contacts to make this work, I don't think it's a goer, sorry.


----------



## WelshD (9 January 2015)

Bear in mind that although there is demand in your area you could fill your yard full of people desperate for livery who swear they understand about limited turnout only to find that reality sets in and people move or worse make your life a living hell!

How many times do we see people online whinging about their yards rules when they knew the rules before they moved to the yard!


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (9 January 2015)

The only thing I would think about would be a holding station for horses in transit, the stables need to be near a motorway, have experienced onsite staff and/ or and accommodation for travelling grooms.


----------



## Polar Bear9 (9 January 2015)

Personally absolutely no way, ever. 

However I do know many people who would and do go to yards with no turnout (and then pay a huge premium for a yard with a walker and fabulous schools)


----------



## Marmitesandwich (9 January 2015)

No.  I wouldn't want to do this.  Our horses have turn out every day of the year.  I can't bear to see them standing in all day.


----------



## noodle_ (9 January 2015)

no never,


not even with arena turnout....


----------



## kinnygirl1 (9 January 2015)

For my horse no, I would never not have turn out. 24/7 turnout has been a revelation for me! However I can see that there might be a small niche market for what you offer...laminitics, injured or box resting horses perhaps?


----------



## Kikke (9 January 2015)

no am afraid not.


----------



## Princess Rosie (9 January 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			The only thing I would think about would be a holding station for horses in transit, the stables need to be near a motorway, have experienced onsite staff and/ or and accommodation for travelling grooms.
		
Click to expand...

This is most likely your best option if you are close to major routes? I've had a horse go through lairage before after ferry was cancelled.  Found this link for you and gives you an idea what they are offering, if you scroll to the bottom of the page on the link there is a lairage yard listed in the UK.

http://www.findhorsetransport.org/lairage.html#uk


----------



## Firefly9410 (9 January 2015)

You could make this work OP especially if there is a high demand for livery in your area. Livery yards are not licenced and there is no legal requirement for turnout. You would need to make sure it is crystal clear to people what you are offering. For example saying there is a turnout pen for use in pairs is ok, but you need to specify how and when or you will find some selfish person puts their horses out at 10am and gets them in at 3pm, meaning anybody else who turns up during those times cannot use it. 

I have been on a yard with no turnout and it worked well. There was a turnout pen and it was used sensibly by the liveries, mostly while we mucked out or when nobody else was at the yard, so all the horses had a turn. Everyone found another horse who got along with theirs for turnout so no horse was always isolated. We had direct access to off road hacking but no arena or walker. It was cheaper than most other yards in the area. For anyone wanting to ride most days it worked out fine. Not everyone wants lots of turnout as a necessity. One idea that might work for you is renting the whole yard to one person with a lot of horses, who is happy to sublet any stables they do not need to liveries, with them being the YM and you not being involved with or taking money from the liveries. 

A lot of yards have no turnout in winter so I think you would have no problem filling your yard then but may find people leave in summer for 24/7 grazing, except anyone with laminitis prone horses they might prefer to stay with access to stabling. If you have transport and are willing to move peoples horses twice a year, then separate summer grazing could work ok. People would need a section of the field fenced off so cars could get in the gate without horses escaping. You would need a car park area and a tying up area with posts and tie rings so people can tack up and groom. A tap with a hose would be good too. People can bring tack and grooming kit in their cars. If a horse got ill or injured you could bring it back to the stables.


----------



## HaffiesRock (9 January 2015)

My ponies are on 24/7 turnout and there is nothing that would make me give that up, so I am a no. 

There are the odd ones though, like the lady who took my spaces when I moved from livery, who stabled her showjumpers for 22 hours a day.  

I personally would want to do some research and maybe get some interest up front. It would be awful if you spent a fortune installing a horse walker etc, then nobody came.


----------



## Liz H (9 January 2015)

Many moons ago I was in the RMP, the Mounted Troop kept the horses in 24/7. They were exercised  daily, weather it be ridden or horse walker. Those horses were in superb condition, not choppsy at being stabled for so long and quite happy in their own skin. I wouldn't want it for mine, who love their turnout, especially in summer, but the Military horses were very settled. I will be prepared to be shot down in flames ( in a nice way please) but I don't think the MOD mounts in London etc get free turnout but are very well cared for. So if you can find people who can, more importantly will, exercise daily you may have a market. Obviously there will have to be ménage/ hacking / school, so no,  horses can and do have a happy life without free turnout.


----------



## gina2201 (9 January 2015)

I wouldn't even entertain it.

A friend of mine used to rent a yard with 3 stables but no grazing and she separately rented a field a short walk away down the lane so it IS possible - but I'm not sure that on such a large scale of 15 stables that it would work! I certainly wouldn't be investing my own money into just stables with no land or no opportunity to purchase adjoining land.


----------



## smellsofhorse (9 January 2015)

I would not.
But plenty do.
You are more likely to get serious people consider it for top competition horses, eventers, hunters etc.
Maybe rent as a whole to a professional rider.
Or advertise as a recouperation livery yard for injured horses.
Those on box rest and needing limited turnout and fitness work.
Installing a walker would be a huge plus.
The only issue is liveries wouldn't be long term, there would be lots of turn over.
Get a good reputation and references and you could ask your local equine vets to recommend you to owners of injured horses.


----------



## Woody Le Bois (9 January 2015)

Absolutely not. I am not too bothered if my horse goes out for a whole day or just a few hours but at least some turn out is a must.


----------



## Spotsrock (9 January 2015)

I Wouldnt but a lot of competition horses are kept this way.


----------



## Tallante (9 January 2015)

You're describing the yard my horse is on. It can work but every horse must be fit, a school and horsewalker are essential. Every horse must be worked every day, it's a difficult business and not ideal. turning out into the evening will be necessary.


----------



## Amymay (9 January 2015)

Nope. Never. Why would it ever be a consideration?


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (9 January 2015)

amymay said:



			Nope. Never. Why would it ever be a consideration?
		
Click to expand...

i know many high level yards with little to no turn out


----------



## ChesnutsRoasting (9 January 2015)

snooch said:



			Hi, I am new here so apologies if I have posted this in the wrong section.
I am wanting some thoughts on what you people think about Livery without grazing.
I am seriously thinking of starting up a small livery yard with room for approximately 15 horses, although there are no field grazing the yard does have a medium sized paddock and a full sized menage, it also boasts of lots of off road hacking as it is a countryside location.

My question is (before I plough lots of money into it ) would you be happy to stable your horse at a yard with no grazing and only limited turn out?

Thank you in advance for any replies.
		
Click to expand...

No.


----------



## Amymay (9 January 2015)

Nightmare before Christmas said:



			i know many high level yards with little to no turn out
		
Click to expand...

And??


----------



## alainax (9 January 2015)

Wouldn't work for me. 

According to the other suggestions though you may still have a few specialist options. Like specialising in horses who need restricted turn out/ grazing for medical reasons, a high end competition yard etc. Each of these may be possible, but will have to be highly specialised and set up for their particular need. Certainly not a run of the mill yard.


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (9 January 2015)

amymay said:



			And??
		
Click to expand...

just saying whilst many it may not suit theres also many it would. It wouldnt put me off. My liveries take or leave turnout and schooling/comp horses only go out if stated by owners. All horses very happy at mine, I dont have a huge amount of land.


----------



## Toby_Zaphod (9 January 2015)

No.............................. Financial suicide for you I think.


----------



## amandaco2 (9 January 2015)

No way. Mine are out on 10 acres atm, my pocket is happy and they are healthy happy ponies. The thought of no grazing turnout at all sounds cruel imho......


----------



## Copperpot (9 January 2015)

Not ever. Turn out is the most important thing to me.


----------



## Abby-Lou (9 January 2015)

100% no sorry


----------



## ladyt25 (9 January 2015)

Personally I think it's wrong you keep horses in any environment where they don't get time to be horses.  That to means adequate space to run, opportunity to socialise with other horses and access to different grasses in their field. 
Therefore I would certainly not entertain the idea of keeping my horse anywhere where there wasn't any option of 24/7 turnout at least during the summer months


----------



## FfionWinnie (9 January 2015)

15 is too many for a livery with no turnout IMO.  It could work as a training and schooling yard or dealers yard perhaps.


----------



## Sukistokes2 (9 January 2015)

That's a no from me...but some good suggestions on here as usual!


----------



## Jnhuk (9 January 2015)

Sorry not read the whole thread but what about thinking of alternative plans?  How about using your venue for  training, schooling days or mini competitions if your arena is up to it? Depends what else is in your area

Or if hacking brilliant, horsey short breaks?


----------



## Mrs B (9 January 2015)

IMO, there IS a place for livery with no turnout as others have said, but only for very specific reasons:

If a horse is injured and on box-rest.
If it's quarantined. 
If the horse is simply passing through and needs a place for a day or two.
If a horse is (rarely) not happy being turned out at all, and can be fully exercised/occupied by its owner whilst stabled.

Other than that, then no.


----------



## ester (9 January 2015)

Surely it's not going to be a competition yard with one (presumably 20x40?) school and no walker etc? - and not a huge amount of space to install such things to enable all the horses get properly exercised daily?


----------



## blowsbubbles (9 January 2015)

No, while horses can adapt, I don't feel it is fair to ask them to do so. 
Competition/ mod/ racing yard horses that don't get turnout are generally highly exercised and mentally challenged but don't get to be horses, and can struggle when they do get turnout holidays. 

IMO its not fair to the horse and shouldn't be offered, just in the same way pokey new build houses should nt be for humans!!


----------



## Boulty (9 January 2015)

I would consider no grazing as in no grass (grass sensitive horse)  but I would still expect unrestricted access to a turnout area of a decent size (whether done by running surfaced tracks around the place that feed into more open paddock areas (preferred) or just by having a decent sized surfaced area (maybe hardcore base with gravel or road planings or woodchip, wouldn't like just bare concrete though cos of slip risk and it being quite a hard surface for them to be running about on).  I would expect the area poo picking on a daily basis (preferably by the owner so it definitely gets done) and for provision of ad-lib hay or haylage to be included in the livery.  I guess the point of my reply is that someone whose horse is perhaps prone to laminitis may actually see no actual grazing as a positive thing but they are still going to expect turnout in some form to replace that. To be blunt though i don't think the amount of space you're currently proposing would work for 15 horses. I would halve that number and increase your price / maybe make some luxuries chargeable if you need to make X amount per month to make it worthwhile.

If I could find a yard that offered the above in my area then I'd move tomorrow as it would save me a lot of headaches!


----------



## Stacy_W (9 January 2015)

No - my idea of hell.


----------



## Cinnamontoast (9 January 2015)

No way!


----------



## AngieandBen (10 January 2015)

Stacy_W said:



			No - my idea of hell.
		
Click to expand...


This;  I hate it when mine come in overnight which is about twice a year!  I simply can't cope with horses being in;


----------



## Theocat (10 January 2015)

I think there could well be a market for no grazing for laminitis, etc, but you would still need more turnout than you're able to offer.

You don't seem to have the facilities / space to setup as the kind of high quality yard that gets away with no turnout.

You'd need all liveries to sign up to full livery - expecting to get a yard full of reliable DIY owners who will be able to put the hours in to managing that kind of care approrpiately would be very difficult.

Your forage bill will be enormous and you'll need to pass that cost on.

If you can't source grazing I don't think it's viable. Certainly I'd never move to a yard without at least some grazing and at least full day daily turnout.


----------



## Queenbee (10 January 2015)

I have not read all the replies but If I had a setup without grazing, or with very limited grazing and I was considering setting up a yard my first thought would be setting up a specialist yard for vet referrals - rehab, box rest cases, hydro therapy etc... As a plain livery yard there is no way I would consider it for my horse, but if there was a yard that could take my horse on referral for recovery that's a set up I would consider


----------



## widget (10 January 2015)

What about a rehab yard if you had the time and knowledge you could take in say horses on box rest, be a holding centre for RSPCA cases ( where they can go in an emergency for a few days until something can be sorted) or for police if you have fly grazing in your area. Or for laminitics in the initial stages a month or two there would probably suit.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (10 January 2015)

I used to have lessons at a quality competition yard and while their paddocks were small and only used for a couple of hours a day, they needed a lot of room for their facilities which included a large XC course, a SJ paddock, gallops, 20 x 60 outdoor school, 20 x 40 indoor school, small horsewalker (would have been nicer if it was a big oval/rectangular one), large square yard with big looseboxes, grooms accommodation, large haybarn, storage buildings and hay fields. 

So you can see how a yard for comp horses functioned very well with limited grazing, but they did have a lot of land in total and could have put in more paddocks if required.


----------



## MrsNorris (10 January 2015)

snooch said:



			I definitely would not be turning them all out at once lol

I guess I will have to give it lots more serious thought because with the absence of any grazing in summer too (unless I can convince the farmer up the lane to rent me the field next to the paddock) the hourses will be stuck with a paddock, I could install a horse walker too but not too sure how people feel about them.
In the venture I am thinking of undertaking I would actually be living on site in the farmhouse so would be there 24/7 to make sure things are all in order and run well .
		
Click to expand...

You've missed the point I was making... People like me looking for grass-free turnout want to be able to turn out our horses as if they were normal ie 24/7 in summer and during the days in winter. I can go to any yard in the country and restrict grazing by keeping my horse in a lot.
I don't see how you can possibly do anything like that with 15 horses and one medium paddock, you'll just be offering severely restricted grazing, like everyone else....


----------



## snooch (10 January 2015)

Thank you for all your helpful replies.

Can I just set the record straight for those who are worried that I aim to turn it into a competition yard or a livery with no grazing whatsoever that I have NO PLANS at all to do anything with it yet. I have had the chance to rent a 7 bedroom farmhouse with a large (could be) menarge, orchard and paddock.
There are 5 stables all ready to rent out and a further block of buildings which could hold another 10 standard sized stables or 6 luxury large ones, all of the stables will overlook the menage and are a stones throw from the farmhouse.

The farmhouse itself is on a secluded country lane with access to lots of woodland.

For me to turn it into a decent high quality yard (which is what I would do and not allow it to be dirty or unprofessional) I would have to plough a hell of a lot of money and hard work into it but personally I can see the bigger picture and think it is in a prime location for a great lievery. There is options to rent fields within a miles away from the yard so I guess that is also a viable option if I were to build some semi stables on there for summer grazing and offer limited turnout on the yard throughout winter.

Because I would be living on site all the time I am liking the idea of going more for a recovery yard as I could be there to gently exercise horses etc while owners where at work.

All of this is just ideas at the moment though hence writing a post on here to gather you good peoples thoughts..

Thanks again for all the replies


----------



## snooch (10 January 2015)

hollybear said:



			You've missed the point I was making... People like me looking for grass-free turnout want to be able to turn out our horses as if they were normal ie 24/7 in summer and during the days in winter. I can go to any yard in the country and restrict grazing by keeping my horse in a lot.
I don't see how you can possibly do anything like that with 15 horses and one medium paddock, you'll just be offering severely restricted grazing, like everyone else....
		
Click to expand...


I understand and take your point


----------



## Landcruiser (10 January 2015)

But to plough all that money into a rented property??????

IMO just because lots of yards, especially racing and competition, have no turnout it doesn't make it right or OK. Horses are social herd animals, nomadic herd animals. They are designed to move around constantly, and never to be confined in small spaces. OK, we have to confine them, and because we have domesticated them they have to dance to our tune - we pay the bills! But for welfare reasons I truly think that stabling such an animal - caging it, essentially - for long periods of solitary confinement is wrong. Physically and mentally detrimental. Sometimes it's necessary (debatably), but mostly we do it for our convenience. Some horses cope, others are screwed up by it. I don't think it's ever to be encouraged and would never use a yard with no turnout.


----------



## milesjess (10 January 2015)

Definitely not no. I won't compromise on turnout, I like mine out all year round even if winter is restricted. No turnout just isn't a healthy option for a horse IMO.


----------



## MileAMinute (10 January 2015)

No, and I think it would be wrong to exploit local horsefolk because there 'aren't many other yards about'. I would rather sell my horse than keep it indefinitely at a yard with no grazing.

I also wouldn't spend all that money on a rented property, either. It's a lot of money to plough into something with an uncertain future.


----------



## Tiddlypom (10 January 2015)

snooch said:



			Because I would be living on site all the time I am liking the idea of going more for a recovery yard as I could be there to gently exercise horses etc while owners where at work.
		
Click to expand...

I would expect any rehab yard to have supervised, individual turnout paddocks with very good footing. Restricted turnout is often part of the recovery process. 

By all means sink a pot full of money into this enterprise, but I can't see it succeeding unless you get more land adjoining the existing acreage.


----------



## WelshD (10 January 2015)

With the house having seven bedrooms if its well located maybe there is mileage  in the overnight stop suggestion? Or if you are near a big equestrian centre you could offer duration stables for shows with B&B or even just 'bring your horse' B&B

In your situation I would certainly look to make the house and five stables work harder, this stops you having to spend money on making more stables and reduces the pressure for grazing


----------



## ester (10 January 2015)

snooch said:



			For me to turn it into a decent high quality yard (which is what I would do and not allow it to be dirty or unprofessional) I would have to plough a hell of a lot of money and hard work into it but personally I can see the bigger picture and think it is in a prime location for a great lievery. There is options to rent fields within a miles away from the yard so I guess that is also a viable option if I were to build some semi stables on there for summer grazing and offer limited turnout on the yard throughout winter.
		
Click to expand...

I think that is what many people are getting at, the fact that it could work, but to do so will cost and it is a rented property so why you want to!


----------



## lula (10 January 2015)

Not for me either, sorry.


----------



## EmmaC78 (10 January 2015)

I wouldn't consider it either unless, as others have mentioned, it was on a short terms basis for veterinary reasons.


----------



## ihatework (10 January 2015)

Sounds like financial suicide to me


----------



## sarahw123 (10 January 2015)

smellsofhorse said:



			I would not.
But plenty do.
You are more likely to get serious people consider it for top competition horses, eventers, hunters etc.
Maybe rent as a whole to a professional rider.
Or advertise as a recouperation livery yard for injured horses.
Those on box rest and needing limited turnout and fitness work.
Installing a walker would be a huge plus.
The only issue is liveries wouldn't be long term, there would be lots of turn over.
Get a good reputation and references and you could ask your local equine vets to recommend you to owners of injured horses.
		
Click to expand...


I like this idea.


----------



## Spring Feather (10 January 2015)

My new equestrian centre has little 'grazing' compared to my farm which has tons of grazing in big pasture fields.  The new place has lots of small paddocks however and as we feed hay all year round anyway whether at the farm or the EC it doesn't matter so long as the horses all get long turnout each day.  At the EC most people are riders and horses are exercised so turnout in small paddocks doesn't seem to bother them.  Whereas at the farm most liveries are occasional trail riders so the big fields do play a big part of keeping those horses exercised.

How big is the paddock and could you not split it into small turnout areas and feed hay instead?


----------



## Kezzabell2 (10 January 2015)

never


----------



## niagaraduval (10 January 2015)

No I wouldn't I want my boy out on grass as much as possible.


----------



## gunnergundog (10 January 2015)

A rehab yard would be and has been the only yard I've had horses on in the past with no turnout as in the early days you can't compromise the recovery with uncontrolled movement.

Jo Hodges at Milton Keynes ran such a yard very successfully for many years.  HOWEVER, you need the background yourself (chartered physio qualifications) plus you need not only to be a good jockey, but a good jockey WITH feel.  Nowadays an OVAL horsewalker, treadmill, swimming pool, sandpit roll plus solarium would be the minimum requirements i would guess.  Oh, and an indoor with an exemplary surface.


----------



## SO1 (11 January 2015)

There is a big difference between no grazing and no turnout.

Like others have said there will be people with horses that do not do well with lots of grass for example laminitics who would appreciate a turnout area without much grass - however they would want every day turnout for at least half a day if not a whole day just like most people and a decent surface not a mud pit or concrete and probably company for the horses too and space for them to have a run around and play.

With regard to running a rehab yard for horses on box rest you would need to be able to deal with highly strung horses who are on box rest and if you do not have a walker you have to be able to be willing to walk horses in hand in all weathers if need be. My pony when he was on rehab for an injury when he was coming back into work had to be walked twice a day for an hour and it was winter. He was on a specialised rehab yard with a large horse walker so he went on the walker. He also needed gradual turnout building up to half a day before he was allowed to go back to his normal yard. 

If you have 15 horses on box rest or rehab livery this will be a lot of work and if you are having to walk them in hand as well this will take ages. You probably would not be able to do this on your own especially in winter when it gets dark very early especially if you have a lot of horses that need walking or gentle exercise.

Keeping a horse in for long periods of time is not a cheap/easy way of keeping a horse so I don't think you would get the people who are looking for a cheap livery and have no other options.


----------



## Lintel (11 January 2015)

I'm currently on a yard with limited turnout in summer. Tends to be out during the day and in at night with the odd exception. Stabled 24/7 during winter, supervised turnout in the arena.
The yard owner made it very clear to each livery this was the case as she has such limited grazing. I'm happy enough with this as my boy is lami prone so in for a few hours day or night during the summer suits me well. Bit of a pain in the ass though during winter though. There are 3 horses to each acre paddock during the summer which isn't ideal but the horses are specifically put in with those they get on well with(less agro and less chance of animosity in the paddocks) can't say I'd be interested though if it was more limited than this I love the yard the people are great facilities Great too and hacking is superb so it's just the grazing really- if it wasn't as close to home I probably wouldn't be there 

Hopefully that helps x


----------



## KautoStar1 (11 January 2015)

Sorry I don't mean this to sound rude, although it probably will do anyway but I have to question the common / horse sense of anyone suggesting such a thing in the first place.  With very few exceptions turn out is a basic need, with grass. It is a horses staple diet. 
Why would anyone with a horsey brain even think a no turn out yard is a good idea ?


----------



## SpringArising (11 January 2015)

Absolutely not. 

Turning a horse out in an arena for a couple of hours a day, on its own, is not sufficient turnout.


----------



## Wagtail (11 January 2015)

KautoStar1 said:



			Sorry I don't mean this to sound rude, although it probably will do anyway but I have to question the common / horse sense of anyone suggesting such a thing in the first place.  With very few exceptions turn out is a basic need, with grass. It is a horses staple diet. 
Why would anyone with a horsey brain even think a no turn out yard is a good idea ?
		
Click to expand...

Because anyone with 'a horsey brain' knows that some horses cannot tolerate grass. All horses need turnout, but not necessarily grass. Some cannot go on grass and in some foreign countries grass is not a possibility due to climate.


----------



## honetpot (11 January 2015)

Most of the yards in Newmarket have no grass or turnout the ones on the High Street you are out of a concrete yard and on to the main road. I used to be a hunting groom and from August to March they did not get turned out, and some expensive competition horses are never turned out. The Kings Troop and Police horses in London have no turn out on a daily basis and the old pit ponies spent weeks underground. Its natural for a horse to live on flat open plains of sparse grass, as soon as we put them in a fenced paddock and stable them at all its not all that natural.


----------



## KautoStar1 (11 January 2015)

Wagtail said:



			Because anyone with 'a horsey brain' knows that some horses cannot tolerate grass. All horses need turnout, but not necessarily grass. Some cannot go on grass and in some foreign countries grass is not a possibility due to climate.
		
Click to expand...

This is true Wagtail but its still pretty rare.  One of the reason we have so many problem horses in this country is because novice owners are leaving their horses in the care of novice livery yard owners.  No / limited turn out simply leads to problems & experienced owners and livery yard owners would know this.


----------



## Tinypony (11 January 2015)

It depends on your standards I suppose.  For me, I think my horses deserve to be turned out for most of the daylight hours in company with enough room to run about a bit.  That's when they're stabled at all.
I think this is a dreadful idea for a livery yard because let's face it, most liveries won't get the sort of exercise working horses get.  They'll get maybe an hour a day in a small area while mucking out is going on, they might get exercised for an hour or so a day if they are lucky, or maybe even get stuck on a horsewalker.  For a real treat maybe a hack or two at the weekend.  But I'm sure you'd find some people who consider themselves to be "competition riders" or similar who would be fine with it.


----------



## KautoStar1 (11 January 2015)

honetpot said:



			Most of the yards in Newmarket have no grass or turnout the ones on the High Street you are out of a concrete yard and on to the main road. I used to be a hunting groom and from August to March they did not get turned out, and some expensive competition horses are never turned out. The Kings Troop and Police horses in London have no turn out on a daily basis and the old pit ponies spent weeks underground. Its natural for a horse to live on flat open plains of sparse grass, as soon as we put them in a fenced paddock and stable them at all its not all that natural.
		
Click to expand...

Yes this is true. But these are all working horses that are exercised daily and to a high level.   & its still a shame that their basic need to be out and forage isnt met. Most average owned horses stabled 24/7 don't get that. 20 min pootling around an arena is not sufficient mental or physical stimulation.  In reply to Wagtail, these sorts of situations lead to the behaviour problems we see in so many horses these days. Over fed, under exercised and not enoughy turn out.


----------



## tallyho! (11 January 2015)

honetpot said:



			Most of the yards in Newmarket have no grass or turnout the ones on the High Street you are out of a concrete yard and on to the main road. I used to be a hunting groom and from August to March they did not get turned out, and some expensive competition horses are never turned out. The Kings Troop and Police horses in London have no turn out on a daily basis and the old pit ponies spent weeks underground. Its natural for a horse to live on flat open plains of sparse grass, as soon as we put them in a fenced paddock and stable them at all its not all that natural.
		
Click to expand...

Hmmm... I can see this analogy but not all horses come from Nevada (in fact, they didn't). Some actually evolved to live on very lush wetlands. Others in very rocky mountainsides.

If you can give your horse adequate exercise and mental stimulation with no turnout or equine contact, good for you.

Most people I know would prefer their equine friends whether in FT competition or retired, to have some form of free-play with friends of the same species whether it's in a 3 acre paddock or a 20 acre paddock.


----------



## only_me (11 January 2015)

I think a rehab yard would be a good idea, it certainly would be good here as I dont think we have any. 
But I would expect either a horse spa or a swimming pool and a walker tbh. The orchard could be used as "lanes" for when you walk/Long rein at start of rehab. 
Rubber mats would be essential and good bedding, and preferably a arena with good surface you can lunge and start to bring back into ridden work in. 
I hate lunging pens! 
But I think it could work as a rehab yard, i don't think people would be put off having no turnout if injured. You would just need to have a cut off point to when they are ready to go home, eg. Are sound and are ready to start jumping etc.


----------



## Highlands (11 January 2015)

No way

You could however be a rehab yard for horses on box rest

Sorry should read post before commenting


----------



## snooch (12 January 2015)

KautoStar1 said:



			Sorry I don't mean this to sound rude, although it probably will do anyway but I have to question the common / horse sense of anyone suggesting such a thing in the first place.  With very few exceptions turn out is a basic need, with grass. It is a horses staple diet. 
Why would anyone with a horsey brain even think a no turn out yard is a good idea ?
		
Click to expand...

You are right, it is rude!
I have not stated anywhere that there is no turn out neither have I stated anywhere that there is no grass.
This does not give you the right to question my intelligence or my ability to run a livery yard.
Just rude!


----------



## hairycob (13 January 2015)

In your first post you said there is no field grazing. That sounds like no grass to most people.


----------



## Burmilla (13 January 2015)

Fifteen horses in a small area, without the opportunity to have plenty of spaces between them would mean a no from me too.


----------



## MerrySherryRider (13 January 2015)

I would not consider it.
 Even local equine hospitals have turnout for rehab horses.
 Even 5 star eventing yards have turnout. 
 Even laminitics need the freedom to move freely and breathe fresh air with or without grass. 

Perhaps Denmark leads the way in making it law that all horses have a minimum of 2 hours turnout daily.


----------



## snooch (13 January 2015)

I have NOT said no turnout. I have NOT said no grass.

I have already stated we have a large menage and a medium sized paddock fr turnout just no field for grazing.

I welcome comments from people who have actually read my fist post but people stated no turn out or grass are causing the debate to be misinformed.


----------



## twiggy2 (13 January 2015)

I don't see keeping a horse in a stable 20+ hrs per day as any different to keeping a dog in a crate for the same length of time each day-I see neither as acceptable unless it is for short term rehab.rehab is so time consuming per horse that I don't see how it can provide much profit.
8hrs turnout per day plus daily work and interaction time (grooming etc) is the bare minimum for me and is why I am on a yard where maintainance seems to be a the bottom of the list of priorities


----------



## milo'n'molly (13 January 2015)

No, I don't think it will work in anyway as a regular livery yard. Even if you could find the liveries to fill the stables I think the time it takes swapping all the horses around and the cost in extra fodder and bedding year round would make your yard extreamly hard work and not particularly financially rewarding as I imagine you will still need good facilities to get the yard full in the first place ie good arena and horse walker.

There are certainly other options though if you think outside the box like the rehab yard. This could work with the space you have but would need serious investment as on top of the area people will bee looking for things like a sea walker, spa, water treadmill, swimming pool and maybe a solarium as well as a small turnout area with really good footing year round. Also handling fit competition horses that are in for months of box rest and need walking out I would say you will need staff to help for safety reasons. It can work but will need lots of ££££, perhaps talk to your local vet hospital and see what they say.

If you have good hacking and spare rooms what about a horse and rider B and B? Will require much less financial investment to get going as 5 stables will probably be about right then both the stables and the house is earning it's keep.

Would I move to a yard with such limited turn out? No way. Good luck


----------



## be positive (13 January 2015)

snooch said:



			I have NOT said no turnout. I have NOT said no grass.

I have already stated we have a large menage and a medium sized paddock fr turnout just no field for grazing.

I welcome comments from people who have actually read my fist post but people stated no turn out or grass are causing the debate to be misinformed.
		
Click to expand...

There will be very limited turnout time if you have 15 horses to fit in each day the logistics will be tricky and labour intensive getting a few out then back in throughout the day, there may be grass for a while but with so many going out on so little land it will either get eaten or churned up very quickly requiring investment to keep it in reasonable condition.

The costs involved with keeping horses over winter are usually off set somewhat by being able to graze over the summer, if you do full livery you need to build this in, possibly making in prohibitive for owners or less profit for you, if DIY the owners will probably want to source and store a fair amount of hay in order to keep costs down or you will need to buy in off the field so a big dry barn will be essential or storing wrapped bales outside is an option if you have the machinery to move them. 

You really need to do a good business plan to see  if it will be worthwhile, providing livery is tough enough with good facilities and grazing, without you may find the margins too small.

Another thought, if you are going to use the arena for turning out it will then not be available for riding in and may well end up totally trashed if they dig, roll and charge about, I never turnout in mine it is far too valuable to risk destruction.


----------



## snooch (13 January 2015)

Thank you for the constructive replies.

We are looking at securing a 30 acre field which is a short walk from the farmhouse and stables and does not include any roads.

I like the idea of a horse BnB  and we will have plenty of room for that, the area is full off lovely woodland and off road hacking so I can see that being a hit at weekends when city horse people want somewhere a little different to enjoy, we do have a very large barn and several other high quality outbuildings where a settee, microwave, kettle etc can be put in....The outside toilet is already under construction to support a shower and change room too.

Am still very much in the early stages of all of this and at the moment it is all idea's and " what will work and what won't"

I still have a lot more planning to do and I lot more financial risk assessment to do to. 

Judging from doing Market research there is definite need for a new livery yard as local yards have waiting lists and are turning people away but the majority verdict on here is that no grazing no go. I agree with the no turnout no go as I personally would not keep my horse stabled 24/7 but I sit on the fence with limited turnout.


----------



## Penny Eater (13 January 2015)

I wouldn't consider limited turnout either, sorry. Not for livery and not for horsey B&B either. Both the horsey B & B holidays I've been on, we turned the horses out in a paddock overnight, I wouldn't like them stabled overnight if you've been hacking all day, I'd like them gently moving around so they don't get stiff stood all night and then be expected to do another long ride the next day.


----------



## Firefly9410 (13 January 2015)

Do not be put off OP  This forum is not necessarily representative of the horse world as a whole. Most of the yards I have been on have offered about 7hrs grazing in summer and fields shut intermittently (every day it rains) in winter or 24/7 grazing in summer and fields shut completely for 6mths in winter. I know of others with less grazing than that. It has not stopped any of us successfully keeping happy horses or being happy ourselves. My friends and I consider things like a toilet to be a luxury! Most yards do not seem to have one.

Just because people on HHO are obsessed with turnout that does not mean that in an area with limited livery spaces your minimal grazing yard would not be a success. It would not even require too much financial investment initially if you have the field, the arena and five stables already you could start as soon as you have planning permission to run a business from the property. 

If people in the area are being turned away from other yards many will come to you as the empty one even if it is only until a space comes up on a yard with more grazing. All yards have a degree of people moving on and off though, my yard is lovely but still after any 3mth period I find I no longer know half of the people on it! Good luck with your new venture.


----------



## snooch (13 January 2015)

Penny Eater said:



			I wouldn't consider limited turnout either, sorry. Not for livery and not for horsey B&B either. Both the horsey B & B holidays I've been on, we turned the horses out in a paddock overnight, I wouldn't like them stabled overnight if you've been hacking all day, I'd like them gently moving around so they don't get stiff stood all night and then be expected to do another long ride the next day.
		
Click to expand...

We have a good sized paddock for turn out, not sure I understand your post...you state you would not be happy with limited turnout  for horsey bnb yet you have been on two holidays where the horses where turned into a paddock for the night...where is that any different?


----------



## snooch (13 January 2015)

Firefly9410 said:



			Do not be put off OP  This forum is not necessarily representative of the horse world as a whole. Most of the yards I have been on have offered about 7hrs grazing in summer and fields shut intermittently (every day it rains) in winter or 24/7 grazing in summer and fields shut completely for 6mths in winter. I know of others with less grazing than that. It has not stopped any of us successfully keeping happy horses or being happy ourselves. My friends and I consider things like a toilet to be a luxury! Most yards do not seem to have one.

Just because people on HHO are obsessed with turnout that does not mean that in an area with limited livery spaces your minimal grazing yard would not be a success. It would not even require too much financial investment initially if you have the field, the arena and five stables already you could start as soon as you have planning permission to run a business from the property. 

If people in the area are being turned away from other yards many will come to you as the empty one even if it is only until a space comes up on a yard with more grazing. All yards have a degree of people moving on and off though, my yard is lovely but still after any 3mth period I find I no longer know half of the people on it! Good luck with your new venture.
		
Click to expand...

 Thank you very very much xxxx


----------



## SpringArising (13 January 2015)

snooch said:



			We have a good sized paddock for turn out, not sure I understand your post...you state you would not be happy with limited turnout  for horsey bnb yet you have been on two holidays where the horses where turned into a paddock for the night...where is that any different? 

Click to expand...

Because if you had a B&B, it doesn't sound like Penny Eater would have been able to turn her horse out at the end of the day, as you would be providing 'limited turnout' only. 

I don't really see the point of a rehab centre either, why would people move from their current place?


----------



## Penny Eater (13 January 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Because if you had a B&B, it doesn't sound like Penny Eater would have been able to turn her horse out at the end of the day, as you would be providing 'limited turnout' only. 

I don't really see the point of a rehab centre either, why would people move from their current place?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, this exactly, just assumed as you said limited turnout it may not be available. Your liveries might get a bit miffed if they couldn't use the paddock while you had horsey guests as well. Plus if this paddock was to be the only bit of grazing (assuming you can't get the 30 acres) then it's going to be in a pretty poor state very quickly.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (13 January 2015)

SpringArising said:



			I don't really see the point of a rehab centre either, why would people move from their current place?
		
Click to expand...

There is a limited market for rehab yards for those that work full time and have horses to rehab-rehabbing at home can be a complete nightmare in that scenario-especially in the winter. 

OP, dont know where you are but there might also be something of a market in the TB industry-although they tend to have preferred yards to send horses to already. I used to work on a TB rehab yard and its still going strong-its also in Newmarket. Any turnout was only done on good ground in turnout pens. Rehab is labour intensive though and you need to know your stuff.

As for horsey B&B, just to play DA-knowing alot about grass sickness I would much prefer my horse didnt have turnout on strange premises and if they are out hacking for several hours a day, sane, well trained horses will not care if there's no turnout for a finite period of time. Owners can always walk out in hand if they don't cool down enough and worried about stiffness.


----------



## Tinypony (13 January 2015)

I suppose the logical thing would be for Op to state what period of time she considers the "limited turnout" would be?
Thing is, if you are offering holidays with horse, you need more than one paddock.  Riders might be friends, but their horses might not live together. Therefore if you've got 4 or 5 people staying with their horses, you can't just turn the horses out in the same space.  
Limited turnout tends to refer to just one or two hours a day, or not all days of the week.  Turning horses out all night (which would probably be maybe 12+ hours is hardly something you'd call limited!
Personally Snoop I think you're kind of drip feeding here.  One minute you're saying:

"I am seriously thinking of starting up a small livery yard with room for approximately 15 horses, although there are no field grazing the yard does have a medium sized paddock and a full sized menage..."

The next you might have a 30 acre field.

By the way, if you're considering holidays with horse you definitely need to do more research.  What you mentioned earlier isn't exactly holiday facilities.  Taking paying guests will affect your insurance, if you want to do B+B you'll need to get the proper training and certification, separate food storage... etc... etc...


----------



## MerrySherryRider (13 January 2015)

I think people did read your post. The paddock you mentioned would not be sufficient for meeting the needs of 15 horses even if it had an all weather surface. Renting the extra 30 acres would make it viable. 
I agree that the opinions of one, albeit quite large, horse forum are not representative of all horse owners, but in my own RL experience, lack of suitable turnout has been the biggest reason for liveries to leave an otherwise good yard. Not many leisure owners have the time to exercise each horse enough to compensate lack of turnout 365 days a year.


----------



## Tinypony (13 January 2015)

Following on from what Motherofchickens said - holiday with horses need a choice - stables and/or turnout.  Some won't want turnout, but for a lot of people it's essential.  By turnout I mean of course 6 hours or so... not a run round a menage or tiny paddock that's shared with the liveries.
I know about this, have personal experience.


----------



## Auslander (13 January 2015)

What size is the paddock OP?


----------



## snooch (13 January 2015)

Auslander said:



			What size is the paddock OP?
		
Click to expand...


Paddock is about  8 acres with a scope of another acre if I used the orchard too.


----------



## ossy (13 January 2015)

snooch said:



			Paddock is about  8 acres with a scope of another acre if I used the orchard too.
		
Click to expand...

That makes a difference I would say then, although 8 acres to 15 horses is not what I'd want it isn't u heard of, although not sure what you mean by no field grassing but have an 8 acre paddock.  Based on my terminogy of a paddock Can u section the 8 acres into smaller paddocks then turnout in small groups so at least the horses can all go out at the same time.  In summer you could prob get 5 hours a day on then if managed right and in winter you could offer every other day turnout for say 2 hours.  It's not necessarly what I'd pick but plenty work like that.


----------



## Firefly9410 (13 January 2015)

Tinypony said:



			I suppose the logical thing would be for Op to state what period of time she considers the "limited turnout" would be?
Thing is, if you are offering holidays with horse, you need more than one paddock.  Riders might be friends, but their horses might not live together. Therefore if you've got 4 or 5 people staying with their horses, you can't just turn the horses out in the same space.  
Limited turnout tends to refer to just one or two hours a day, or not all days of the week.  Turning horses out all night (which would probably be maybe 12+ hours is hardly something you'd call limited!
Personally Snoop I think you're kind of drip feeding here.  One minute you're saying:

"I am seriously thinking of starting up a small livery yard with room for approximately 15 horses, although there are no field grazing the yard does have a medium sized paddock and a full sized menage..."

The next you might have a 30 acre field.

By the way, if you're considering holidays with horse you definitely need to do more research.  What you mentioned earlier isn't exactly holiday facilities.  Taking paying guests will affect your insurance, if you want to do B+B you'll need to get the proper training and certification, separate food storage... etc... etc...
		
Click to expand...


This seems a little unfair, the OP is vague and inconsistent because they are only at the thinking of ideas stage. I disagree about not having holiday facilities. The OP offers good off road hacking, a stable, possibly some time in the field and rooms which could be used for b&b. What more do people want from a horse based holiday?


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (13 January 2015)

snooch said:



			Hi, I am new here so apologies if I have posted this in the wrong section.
I am wanting some thoughts on what you people think about Livery without grazing.
I am seriously thinking of starting up a small livery yard with room for approximately 15 horses, although there are no field grazing the yard does have a medium sized paddock and a full sized menage, it also boasts of lots of off road hacking as it is a countryside location.

My question is (before I plough lots of money into it ) would you be happy to stable your horse at a yard with no grazing and only limited turn out?

Thank you in advance for any replies.
		
Click to expand...

I worked at Fulmer Equestrian Centre which had O turnout  no fields what so ever, it was a riding school so horses were regulary excercised.  They had their fair share of liveries so there are some which except no grazing.   Some of these horses were much loved pets - some competition.  The other thing some horses cannot go out for ailment issues so you could set up as rehab livery where grass livery has to come in.  Though this of course would mean you had ever changing horses coming through.  The other thing is horses with a disability moonblindness or deformaty may prefer no grazing and just grazing in hand or turnout  in school.  You could ask local farm if he had small paddock to rent to give some turnout.


You will of course here have a huge repsonse of *NO* answers here  because they are used to acres of fields for their horses but there are some out there who don't need turnout.  But what they forget  is there are places who have no turnout due to the location. 

 I have worked in two places where there was NO turnout - Fulmer one place and Stag Lodge Stables is another in Roehampton.  Search or google these places to see what they do as an alternative to turnout.


Stag Lodge does seem to have another yard nearby now but When I worked there in 1981 there was just the one place, their websitehttp://www.ridinginlondon.com/


----------



## Tiddlypom (13 January 2015)

8 acres is more than I imagined from your OP. What is the soil like? You could make some well fenced individual turnout paddocks out of that amount of land if the footing was good, (clay would be bad.).

I can't see the owners of a horse sent for rehab wanting group turnout.


----------



## snooch (13 January 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			I worked at Fulmer Equestrian Centre which had O turnout  no fields what so ever, it was a riding school so horses were regulary excercised.  They had their fair share of liveries so there are some which except no grazing.   Some of these horses were much loved pets - some competition.  The other thing some horses cannot go out for ailment issues so you could set up as rehab livery where grass livery has to come in.  Though this of course would mean you had ever changing horses coming through.  The other thing is horses with a disability moonblindness or deformaty may prefer no grazing and just grazing in hand or turnout  in school.  You could ask local farm if he had small paddock to rent to give some turnout.


You will of course here have a huge repsonse of *NO* answers here  because they are used to acres of fields for their horses but there are some out there who don't need turnout.  But what they forget  is there are places who have no turnout due to the location. 

 I have worked in two places where there was NO turnout - Fulmer one place and Stag Lodge Stables is another in Roehampton.  Search or google these places to see what they do as an alternative to turnout.


Stag Lodge does seem to have another yard nearby now but When I worked there in 1981 there was just the one place, their websitehttp://www.ridinginlondon.com/

Click to expand...

Thank you for your comments I will google the places now


----------



## snooch (13 January 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			8 acres is more than I imagined from your OP. What is the soil like? You could make some well fenced individual turnout paddocks out of that amount of land if the footing was good, (clay would be bad.).

I can't see the owners of a horse sent for rehab wanting group turnout.
		
Click to expand...


It is in good condition now and we are in the middle of winter, no bogginess or anything but I am under no illusion that turning horses out on it daily will soon have it mushed up and muddy, limiting the turnout and rotating the paddock could solve this


----------



## Tinypony (13 January 2015)

"I like the idea of a horse BnB and we will have plenty of room for that, the area is full off lovely woodland and off road hacking so I can see that being a hit at weekends when city horse people want somewhere a little different to enjoy, we do have a very large barn and several other high quality outbuildings where a settee, microwave, kettle etc can be put in....The outside toilet is already under construction to support a shower and change room too."

Firefly - a horse B+B normally involves rooms to sleep in, baths to soak in, lovely breakfasts...  If you run a B+B and provide food then you need to meet food hygiene regulations.  I used to run a B+B and have "baby-sat" and equestrian one, so am actually giving Op some useful advice. And to be honest I don't think it was unfair to ask Op to clarify what she meant by limited turnout, because it is now apparent that things aren't as bad as they seemed at first.  The title of the thread is "livery with no grazing".


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (13 January 2015)

snooch said:



			Thank you for your comments I will google the places now 

Click to expand...

It does seem they offer grass turnout but where that is I have no idea as there are no fields nearby

Alas Fulmer Equestrian Centre is no longer there it was flattened years ago including both their indoor schools


----------



## Arzada (13 January 2015)

snooch said:



			what you people think about Livery without grazing.
I am seriously thinking of starting up a small livery yard with room for approximately 15 horses, although there are no field grazing the yard does have a medium sized paddock and a full sized menage

My question is (before I plough lots of money into it ) would you be happy to stable your horse at a yard with no grazing and only limited turn out?
		
Click to expand...

I've been following this with interest and now I'm confused. You have an 8 acre paddock. Your thread is called 'Livery with no grazing'. Where does the 8 acres feature if there's no grazing?


----------



## snooch (13 January 2015)

Arzada said:



			I've been following this with interest and now I'm confused. You have an 8 acre paddock. Your thread is called 'Livery with no grazing'. Where does the 8 acres feature if there's no grazing?
		
Click to expand...


As people have rightly stated you need at least an acre of grazing per horse, If I were t fill my stables with 15 horses then the grazing is no where near enough with eight acres for 15 horses. That is why I put no grazing and limited turn out...unless you think that 8 acres is enough for 15 horses


----------



## Arzada (13 January 2015)

snooch said:



			As people have rightly stated you need at least an acre of grazing per horse, If I were t fill my stables with 15 horses then the grazing is no where near enough with eight acres for 15 horses. That is why I put no grazing and limited turn out...unless you think that 8 acres is enough for 15 horses 

Click to expand...

I see - no I don't think that is enough for 15 horses! Could you have fewer horses?


----------



## snooch (13 January 2015)

Arzada said:



			I see - no I don't think that is enough for 15 horses! Could you have fewer horses?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I am basing my fugures on a full yard which would give the least amount of turnout x


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (13 January 2015)

I don't have enough turnout per stable. I have 7 stables and about 2.5 acers. My grass is always overgrown as we just don't use turnout!! My two DIYs do a bit in the summer. My horse will have 20min a couple times a week when his stallion paddock is up and the horses I have come in for schooling/competing by rule don't go out (unless the owner really wants them out but about 1/10 do!)


----------



## Auslander (13 January 2015)

I think 8 acres is sufficient for turnout, if the horses are stabled all year round, and the turnout is for exercise/mental wellbeing, rather than for sustenance. The acre per horse rule is related to sufficient grazing to sustain them. If you are aiming it at high end full/part livery, then 8 acres divided into small turnout paddocks would probably be seen as a positive.


----------



## xgemmax (13 January 2015)

Wagtail said:



			Actually, yes under certain circumstances, for example if I had a lami prone horse, and there are plenty people who do. Grazing is not always what it's cracked up to be. I would think there is a market for a yard specialising in horses that need to be kept primarily off grass. You could turn the paddock into a track system with varied surfaces (sand, gravel, concrete, embankments and the occasional grassy patch. You could put forage stations at various points to keep the horses moving. So before writing it off I would do a bit of market research in the area - perhaps put up a poll here in one of the regional forums.
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't if there was no turnout whatsoever but if something like what wagtail said was put in then I might change my mind


----------



## SpringArising (13 January 2015)

Nightmare before Christmas said:



			My horse will have 20min a couple times a week when his stallion paddock is up and the horses I have come in for schooling/competing by rule don't go out (unless the owner really wants them out but about 1/10 do!)
		
Click to expand...

I know you won't change your mind, but I find that so sad. 

How do 'your' horses fill 22/23 hours a day in a stable?


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (13 January 2015)

They do get time out (my own horse goes in the school but he can jump onto the road hence waiting for the stallion fencing). 

The others are worked either in the school/hacked, go jumping once/twice a week, get time out with the massage pad/solarium. They tend to chill all day snoozing and like I say if the owner states it they go out for an hour or so but most don't bother. This is quite normal with the yards I deal with for horses to be in this routine. Horses I get for schooling arnt on my worming plan and I keep them fairly isolated to keep infection down. Also people sending horses to me don't normally want to risk injury from turn out at a strange yard. I Never had any issues yet x


----------



## Copperpot (13 January 2015)

I don't think people on here are "obsessed" by turnout!

It's natural and healthy and in my view a necessity for a horse. Even a competition horse is still a horse. It wants to play, roll and run around the field. I wouldn't keep my dog in his crate all day and only let him out to exercise him.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (13 January 2015)

snooch said:



			As people have rightly stated you need at least an acre of grazing per horse, If I were t fill my stables with 15 horses then the grazing is no where near enough with eight acres for 15 horses. That is why I put no grazing and limited turn out...unless you think that 8 acres is enough for 15 horses 

Click to expand...

It can be done if managed  and the soil is good drainage we have 11/12 horses on 8 acres, our land copes very well - but we do not do 24 hour grazing so the land is not grazed full time.  Would not put more than 12 on ours though as that would also be too much work for me as I work solo.


----------



## Annagain (13 January 2015)

I think you could run a small livery yard using the 5 stables you already have and the 8 acres, but unless you can rent some more land very close by - or create viable 'second yard' with secure storage, water, electricity, hard-standing and plenty of room to tie up for the summer at the grazing a mile away you mentioned, I wouldn't even think about putting more horses on it. 

Could you rent out the other outbuildings for other purposes to make up the shortfall? Would they make good storage units or workshop space for local craftsmen or would there be a demand for unusual meeting places for local businesses? I'm thinking of corporate away days or something like where they could use the orchard as a base for team building activities etc. This would have insurance implications though and would probably need quite a lot of investment to start off. 

The horsey B&B could work as you could split the paddock into small 1/2 acre turnout 'pens'. While I wouldn't want my horse in something this size long term, overnight for a couple of nights at a weekend would be fine. This would of course have implications for the house and running it as a B&B unless you could team up with a local B&B so they look after the riders and you look after the horses?


----------



## Pocket.Rocket (13 January 2015)

Liz H said:



			Many moons ago I was in the RMP, the Mounted Troop kept the horses in 24/7. They were exercised  daily, weather it be ridden or horse walker. Those horses were in superb condition, not choppsy at being stabled for so long and quite happy in their own skin. I wouldn't want it for mine, who love their turnout, especially in summer, but the Military horses were very settled. I will be prepared to be shot down in flames ( in a nice way please) but I don't think the MOD mounts in London etc get free turnout but are very well cared for. So if you can find people who can, more importantly will, exercise daily you may have a market. Obviously there will have to be ménage/ hacking / school, so no,  horses can and do have a happy life without free turnout.
		
Click to expand...


The civil service horses are all sent away for long summer holidays every year too 

In the winter they are in all 24/7 but they are very well exercised as they have their daily duties and then are also often used for the civil service riding club lessons too.   Or at least that was the case when I was there a few years ago.


----------



## Carrots&Mints (13 January 2015)

Nope! Im out


----------



## Auslander (13 January 2015)

Copperpot said:



			I don't think people on here are "obsessed" by turnout!

It's natural and healthy and in my view a necessity for a horse. Even a competition horse is still a horse. It wants to play, roll and run around the field. I wouldn't keep my dog in his crate all day and only let him out to exercise him.
		
Click to expand...

Too right!
When I worked for WFP - all his horses were turned out every day - mostly in small groups. His top horse at the time (Steadfast) had the run of the entire place - we regularly had to head off across the estate to find him. They had a couple of small individual turnout paddocks for owners horses, but the majority had access to decent sized fields, and mates to play with. They were a very happy relaxed bunch of horses.


----------



## Spring Feather (13 January 2015)

If you were to split the 8 acres into half acre paddocks then you could turn out 2 horses into each paddock daily, or 1 acres paddocks with 4 horses.  You would have to hay them as there wouldn't be any grazing but that's no big deal.  It would then allow all horses to be turned out all day and every day (providing the ground structure is up to it).  Then you wouldn't have to be messing around with turning out/bringing in multiple times every day.


----------



## rara007 (13 January 2015)

My pony came to us having not been turned out on grass for 3 years, as the yard he was on in Holland didn't have grass- quite common I think. He was perfectly happy, calm, free moving etc. This summer he lived out 24/7 and went quite flat, but since november he has been in with access to a small yard. He's much more relaxed than he was on the routine before of out 7am-12 or 4.30pm on mud in a herd .So, for him, only limited turnout wouldn't concern me tbh, I'd be more interested in a decent school and hacking.


----------



## Annagain (13 January 2015)

Spring Feather said:



			If you were to split the 8 acres into half acre paddocks then you could turn out 2 horses into each paddock daily, or 1 acres paddocks with 4 horses.  You would have to hay them as there wouldn't be any grazing but that's no big deal.  It would then allow all horses to be turned out all day and every day (providing the ground structure is up to it).  Then you wouldn't have to be messing around with turning out/bringing in multiple times every day.
		
Click to expand...

If OP wants 15 horses on site she could have 2 in 1 acre paddocks and there'd still be enough paddocks - unless you meant to rest half the land and use half of it? I'm not sure I'd like 4 in such a small space for safety - there's not much room for them to keep out of each other's way in 1 acre.


----------



## Spring Feather (13 January 2015)

annagain said:



			If OP wants 15 horses on site she could have 2 in 1 acre paddocks and there'd still be enough paddocks - unless you meant to rest half the land and use half of it? I'm not sure I'd like 4 in such a small space for safety - there's not much room for them to keep out of each other's way in 1 acre.
		
Click to expand...

Yes sorry; a moment of mind-numb.  What she said ^^ lol!


----------



## Firefly9410 (13 January 2015)

snooch said:



			As people have rightly stated you need at least an acre of grazing per horse, If I were t fill my stables with 15 horses then the grazing is no where near enough with eight acres for 15 horses. That is why I put no grazing and limited turn out...unless you think that 8 acres is enough for 15 horses 

Click to expand...

The majority of yards I have been on the grazing has almost no feed value being that it was over grazed. 8 acre field would have about 20 horses on it and all would be stabled nights, turnout typically 10am to 7pm and not on rainy days in winter. It worked well for riding club type riders with mostly cobs and natives or their crosses, nothing got fat or laminitis or muzzled but there was lots of bickering and scuffle marks on horses from boredom.

ETA you are being too negative OP, these places did not advertise as livery with no grazing they advertised as turnout all year.


----------



## honetpot (13 January 2015)

If every yard, riding school or equestrian college  followed the rule on horse one acre, riding would really become only for the rich. We would all like unlimited  well managed land but the actual fact is land is very expensive and a lot of us are on clay. The  price of good Grade 1 land is rising, its an investment  and if farmed does not attract capital gains tax,  and any where that is close to a town the land will be at a premium and probably start at £20000 per acre. I have about one and half acres for each of my animal but since the end of November I have effectively had 10 animals on less than two acres. Does this appear to be a problem for them? No. They are housed in barns in social age approiate groups will a constant supply of roughage, my only problem is stopping them from getting too fat. I have a young colt who gets bullied by the others so he goes out for a slop in mud with a playmate every other day.
  I have seen enough livery yards to know there is a wide spectrum of ways of keeping horses, I do not like mine in 24/7 but sometimes ground conditions and weather make this not possible. I have also kept my horse in a garage( in a suburb of a city) for four months of the year, worked regularly, he definitely had no turnout but if he had been on a livery yard because of poor soils he would not have been turned out there either. None of the animals I have owned have ever had stable vices, company, fodder, exercise and routine seems to be the main factor in keeping an animals sane.


----------



## ester (13 January 2015)

8 acres was more than I thought too, we should have ascertained that earlier  I might not fill all boxes but perhaps increase livery price by having one as a wash box, one as a solarium etc?


----------



## miss_c (13 January 2015)

NeedNewHorse said:



			As far as I'm concerned a livery without grazing is as much use as a car with no wheels!
		
Click to expand...

This!


----------



## siennamum (13 January 2015)

Without reading all the replies  I may have missed some cruicial information - but life is too short haha.
My brother has 60odd horses on a yard in a city centre location & they have a tiny paddock so they can each have a roll & kick around, arenas, indoor stabling and a school. Horses are perfectly happy.

I think you would need serious competition riders who would potentially want supported livery, a horse walker & good surfaces, lorry parking, washroom, somewhere to get changed etc. My bro, has a woodchip track around his property, only a few hundred yards but enough for a canter or just an amble to cool off after work.


----------



## MillionDollar (13 January 2015)

I would only consider it if there was a horse walker and an all-weather turnout paddock that my horse could definitely go in for at least a few hours everyday. If you are seriously considering this then IMO you need to build at least 5 all-weather turnout pens, that means each horse can go out for 3 hours each, and a horse walker.


----------



## MileAMinute (13 January 2015)

The HHO community aren't 'obsessed' with turnout and grazing. It is a minimum requirement for the majority of horses out there. The OP wanted opinions on who would think her idea was viable, and the majority disagreed as it wouldn't suit their horse's needs. 
I appreciate those with health/weight concerns would think differently and it's a good factor to include.


----------



## MoonRiver (13 January 2015)

Think if it could be set out as above, being split into 1 acre paddocks with 2 horses per paddock it is feasible. Horses let out during the day and back into stables overnight. Would need to keep an eye on ground conditions when very wet and in winter, but the menage could then be used instead. 
I have worked on a yard set up like this, horses were perfectly happy even with just a few hours out


----------



## MillionDollar (13 January 2015)

Just seen you'll have 8 acres. Therefore, I would split into half acre paddocks, and turn horses out for about 6 hours per day. Just don't do 24/7 turnout. I would still build a horse walker and an all-weather pen and then when it's too wet (Nov-March) do not have any turnout.

I have a yard with 60 horses on it, we have 80 acres of grazing. They're out 24/7 in summer and then limited in winter (probably go out once per week). But we have 2 horse walkers and 6 turnout pens. All the horses are very happy, and we actually don't have a horse here that has a vice.


----------



## SO1 (13 January 2015)

8 acres is more than I thought as well.

I think it also depends on what the ground is like and how prone to flooding or muddiness your area gets.

It would not be enough if you needed enough grass to sustain 15 big competition horses but if it was mainly small good doer native and cobs you might be ok, if they were in at night all year round. There are people who would prefer turnout that did not have loads of grass as it aids weight management.

If often seems like a lot of people struggle to keep their horses weigh under control in the summer as there is too much grass yet on the same yard in the winter they have not enough or have to restrict the turnout so I do wonder if there might be a better way of managing grazing so horses don't get overweight in the spring/summer and can still get turnout in the winter!

I have to say I would not want to be on a yard with no turnout in the winter.


----------



## windand rain (13 January 2015)

Check out the welfare laws too it may well be illegal to have horses permanently in stables
Never would used one without 24/7 turnout and daily turnout for at least 8 hours every day if stables were a must


----------



## Spoiled cob (13 January 2015)

windand rain said:



			Check out the welfare laws too it may well be illegal to have horses permanently in stables
Never would used one without 24/7 turnout and daily turnout for at least 8 hours every day if stables were a must
		
Click to expand...

It's not illegal to keep horses in stables. 

In certain European countries horses are rarely turned out and competition horses are kept stabled with daily exercise. Many competition riders don't turn out in the winter in the UK. 

Personally I'm fed up with seeing horses out 24/7 with little grass looking completely miserable, stood in mud for months on end. I think some people tell themselves that is best for the horse etc but in reality its cheaper and easier/less time consuming than bringing in.


----------



## windand rain (13 January 2015)

the law
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/69389/pb13334-cop-horse-091204.pdf

think you would find the letter of the law is that your horse has to have the ability to act like a horse which in my mind does not happen when you stable 24/7
It is far from cheaper easier and less time consuming
mine are fed daily poo picked daily and I can assure you that it takes far longer to poo pick a large field than it does to muck out a few stables they are fed hay and feed at the same rate as stabled horses they are warmer as most stables are very cold I have mucked out stables where the field has been frosty but the poo soft but in the stable the poo is frozen to the floor and the horse cannot move around to keep warm.
I appreciate that there are people who want their horses in but it is mindless cruelty to keep them in 24/7 bored out of their minds and resigned to it so shut down Sorry but an hour or two in a walker or school doesn't cut it with the welfare rules or with the morality of keeping horses You would be sent to jail if you kept a child in the toilet never letting it out and no matter how much food and water you gave it or how much time you spent with it only let it out for and hour or two


----------



## Spoiled cob (13 January 2015)

windand rain said:



			the law
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/69389/pb13334-cop-horse-091204.pdf

think you would find the letter of the law is that your horse has to have the ability to act like a horse which in my mind does not happen when you stable 24/7
		
Click to expand...

I was only stating my opinion and fact. 

I have never heard of anyone keeping horses properly ie not neglected being prosecuted for stabling. There would never be any horses on box rest if that was the case and like I said a large number of professional riders don't turnout in the winter and in Europe it's normal for no turnout. Also things depend on the horses and how much work the owner is happy to put in some people aren't interested in or don't have time to be mucking out/skipping out throughout the day some horses aren't happy to be out in this rubbish weather. 

It seems like things on here are fine if you believe certain things and act certain ways but it quickly becomes a witch hunt for those who may do things differently and voice a different opinion. Whether the op has 5 horses or 15 it will be a business and as such people will have to move their horses there and pay livery so will only do it if it suits them. I doubt it was intended to create a 'you must do things this way or else' thread.


----------



## be positive (13 January 2015)

While I dont agree with stabling 24/7 many horses are, racehorses, police horses come to mind and presumably they are aware of any laws, reading the link I am pasting the part that is relevant, which shows there is nothing illegal about stabling 24/7, I have no idea how it would be policed if it ever was there are far worse things happening to animals that nothing is done about.

Horses and ponies require adequate exercise,
or freedom to exercise and this will require
time and effort from the horse owner or
keeper. Most stabled horses will benefit
from daily turnout in the field to allow
them to graze and socialise with other
horses. This may have the added benefit of
alleviating the risk of stable vices. If turnout
is not feasible, stabled horses should receive
appropriate exercise daily, unless contrary to
veterinary advice.


----------



## windand rain (13 January 2015)

the fact is that there are certain things that are essentially common sense which is neither common not much sense being applied to horses so just because it is or is not done does not mean it should be or shouldn't be. Ideally horses are best served by what is possible and the choices are there for that reason there will be people who strongly think it is ok although by this thread it would only be a few but it would appear that the consensus is that most would not  use a livery without at least some turnout or some sort. I would never send a horse of mine to a yard that did not allow turnout regardless of how good its reputation purely because I believe a horse needs to be out for its physical and mental well being others will think differently. There is also the definition of appropriate exercise that is open to interpretation and no I am fully aware that the laws are not policed and likely never will be which is why we get the horror stories of abuse and neglect that we do
OP could you not base your livery yard on a maximum of 8 horses and acre for each should mean year round turnout you could of course have a few more in summer when the fields would be better so holidays is probably a good idea


----------



## Copperpot (14 January 2015)

Spoiled cob said:



			It's not illegal to keep horses in stables. 

In certain European countries horses are rarely turned out and competition horses are kept stabled with daily exercise. Many competition riders don't turn out in the winter in the UK. 

Personally I'm fed up with seeing horses out 24/7 with little grass looking completely miserable, stood in mud for months on end. I think some people tell themselves that is best for the horse etc but in reality its cheaper and easier/less time consuming than bringing in.
		
Click to expand...

Believe me pushing a wheel barrow around 10 acres every day to poo pick isn't easier than mucking out a stable or 2. 

Nor is filling up 3 water tanks in a field easier than filling a bucket in a stable. 

It probably would be cheaper but then because it was, I just got more horses. 

Having kept my horse on a yard where turnout in winter was non existent, I couldn't do it to him again. Yes he got ridden and went on the walker. What fun. Thats work to him. Not down time. I'm sure it works for some, or they tell themselves their horses are happy stuck in a stable 24/7. I actually find it very sad that the horse never gets to be "just a horse". 

All this "competition" horse stuff. Do those horses not have the same basic needs as bog standard horses then? They aren't herd animals? Don't like to roll in the mud? And are somewhat agrophobic?


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (14 January 2015)

What happens if you can't keep your horse contained in a field? I can't just build jurrasic park fencing overnight! Currently he will last about 10/20 min grazing the edge of the school before jumping in


----------



## Tinypony (14 January 2015)

Well Op, as others have said, I'd have a more suitable amount of liveries, say 8, in line with the land you have available.
If I had a horse that constantly jumped out of a field I'd first be wondering why and could I change that, but I would put up higher fencing so that he couldn't.  I wouldn't do it overnight, but I'd do it...  
I do wonder how easy it is to mistake a shut-down horse for a "happy/chilled/contented" one sometimes.  This applies in the field or stable.  If a horse constantly stands head down and dozing indoors or outdoors it isn't normal, could be a coping strategy.  I'm just saying that sometimes it's worth looking at what's in front of us from a different angle.  Or they could be too hot or course...


----------



## SpringArising (14 January 2015)

Spoiled cob said:



			I have never heard of anyone keeping horses properly ie not neglected being prosecuted for stabling. There would never be any horses on box rest if that was the case and like I said a large number of professional riders don't turnout in the winter and in Europe it's normal for no turnout. Also things depend on the horses and how much work the owner is happy to put in some people aren't interested in or don't have time to be mucking out/skipping out throughout the day some horses aren't happy to be out in this rubbish weather.
		
Click to expand...

1) Having to keep a horse on box-rest is completely different to confinement by choice. 

2) Just because someone else does it that doesn't make it right.

3) Where in Europe? I have been on livery in France and every yard I went to (one trekking centre & riding school, one livery yard and one competition and sales livery 
yard) the horses were turned out on a daily basis (if not 24/7). 

4) If you don't have time to muck out once a day and choose to keep your horse in, bored out of its mind, for convenience, then you shouldn't own a horse.


----------



## Amicus (14 January 2015)

This sounds like an excellent idea.



Wagtail said:



			Actually, yes under certain circumstances, for example if I had a lami prone horse, and there are plenty people who do. Grazing is not always what it's cracked up to be. I would think there is a market for a yard specialising in horses that need to be kept primarily off grass. You could turn the paddock into a track system with varied surfaces (sand, gravel, concrete, embankments and the occasional grassy patch. You could put forage stations at various points to keep the horses moving. So before writing it off I would do a bit of market research in the area - perhaps put up a poll here in one of the regional forums.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Bright_Spark (14 January 2015)

I think it would work for some horses, on the turnout related posts on here, so many people say their horses are only happy out for a couple of hours. 

Provided you can managed a good rota so all have a set time (daily, ideally) and there is plenty of other opportunities for exercise - school, lots of hacking, lunge pen, walker, then I think it would work. Wagtails idea of a track would make turnout more interesting for the horses too, rather than just standing about.

Regards the extra field along the road - near me a livery yard has to walk their horses along a road to get between stable and field. Although it is a country road, it gets quite busy at times, but they seem to manage ok.


----------



## Spoiled cob (14 January 2015)

SpringArising said:



			1) Having to keep a horse on box-rest is completely different to confinement by choice. 

2) Just because someone else does it that doesn't make it right.

3) Where in Europe? I have been on livery in France and every yard I went to (one trekking centre & riding school, one livery yard and one competition and sales livery 
yard) the horses were turned out on a daily basis (if not 24/7). 

4) If you don't have time to muck out once a day and choose to keep your horse in, bored out of its mind, for convenience, then you shouldn't own a horse.
		
Click to expand...

My comments were in response to the post about it being against the law to keep a horse in a stable. I pointed out that if this was the case then you wouldn't be able to have a horse on box rest etc

Everyone has the right to keep their horse how they want to and I'm sure everyone does what they think is right for their horse. If the horse is healthy and happy be it out 24/7 in 24/7 or turned all day or for a few hours then that is your own business. You don't need to answer to a forum, where people sit behind a computer and judge others without having the facts.  

My horse came from Holland, he rarely went out. They had a lot of horses and it flooded in winter so there was no winter turnout, it is common there.  Someone I knew on a yard years ago bought a horse from Germany, he didn't know what grass was. I have read lots of articles from professional riders that stable over winter. 

I never said it was ok to keep a horse in and not clean it out properly!!!  I seriously hope that your weren't insulting me with that point. If you read my post properly you would see that I meant that not everyone can muck out multiple times a day etc if they go to work so it is usually easier to at least turnout in the day so that suits both horse and owner. 

I also pointed out that this thread was about running a business without having turnout and as I said it would only work if people were happy with that as they would have to move their horses there and pay for the livery, no one would be forcing them to do it. 

I knew I shouldn't have bothered responding to this thread. As long as horses aren't being neglected then what everyone does it their business, even if they want to move to the op's yard. no need to be so nasty.


----------



## MagicMelon (14 January 2015)

No definately not.


----------

