# All these barefoot posts.....



## maisie06 (26 April 2012)

According to them I'm doing it all wrong!! Alf has feet of iron, good quality horn, which goes to show people who say white hooves are weak are talking crap! He is ridden on all surfaces without a problem, yet I don't go overboard with his diet - 1 scoop of marksway hoofkind twice a day, and hay and grass - and that's it!!  Apparently I should be feeding loads of various supplements and having a "trimmer" out at £45 a shot!! Think I'll carry on as I am thanks!


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## tallyho! (26 April 2012)

Thats great maisie, you won't be the only one!!  

My white-footed boy is a laminitic though and needs more care. Count yourself as one of the "normal" ones


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## Goldenstar (26 April 2012)

maisie06 said:



			According to them I'm doing it all wrong!! Alf has feet of iron, good quality horn, which goes to show people who say white hooves are weak are talking crap! He is ridden on all surfaces without a problem, yet I don't go overboard with his diet - 1 scoop of marksway hoofkind twice a day, and hay and grass - and that's it!!  Apparently I should be feeding loads of various supplements and having a "trimmer" out at £45 a shot!! Think I'll carry on as I am thanks!
		
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You do want works for your horse its that simple.


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## amandap (26 April 2012)

Alf knows best. 

The diet stuff gets serious when you are having problems if you're not don't worry just enjoy.


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## JFTDWS (26 April 2012)

maisie06 said:



			which goes to show people who say white hooves are weak are talking crap!
		
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I thought that was reasonably comprehensively proven to be a load of nonsense anyway?

I don't do anything special with mine either, they're all unshod and happy on any surface, even for epic 7 hour hacks.  That doesn't mean all horses would be happy unshod and managed in the same way


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## wellsat (26 April 2012)

When have barefooters said white hooves are weaker?

Diet is individual to each horse same as with humans. Some humans can eat what they like and still be a size10, other people put on weight more easily and can't have certain food like wheat or dairy. If your diet is working for you then great but if people are having problems with their horse's feet then diet is probably a good place to start.


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## dafthoss (26 April 2012)

No special treatment for mine either but thats not to say that it wont help others and if people suggesting it on here means they can help some one elses horse become more comfortable then that cant be a bad thing.


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## maisie06 (26 April 2012)

JFTD said:



			I thought that was reasonably comprehensively proven to be a load of nonsense anyway?

I don't do anything special with mine either, they're all unshod and happy on any surface, even for epic 7 hour hacks.  That doesn't mean all horses would be happy unshod and managed in the same way 

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Cripes no!!!!! If I take shoes off my welsh cob he walks like a 50 year old, laminitic, arthritic 3 legged donkey!!!! He just does not cope so shoes it is!! Alf on the other hand is the one you would expect to need shoes with his white feet and little TB style feet??!


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## Angua2 (26 April 2012)

no special treatment here either, as i ended up listening to the horse, rebalanced every 6 months by the yard farrier just to be on the safe side, but other than that I don't tinker!! Horse is happy and I am happy but have to say the knowledge base has been invaluble.


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## debsg (26 April 2012)

You're not doing it wrong if your horse is sound and you and he are happy 
Fwiw my two are out 24/7, on grass, hay only when it snowed, no hard feed, no supps, trimmed by a farrier for £15 each, maintained inbetween by me, and hacked hard on all surfaces. One cob, one TB and me. All happy bunnies!


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## bumper (26 April 2012)

maisie06 said:



			According to them I'm doing it all wrong!! Alf has feet of iron, good quality horn, which goes to show people who say white hooves are weak are talking crap! He is ridden on all surfaces without a problem, yet I don't go overboard with his diet - 1 scoop of marksway hoofkind twice a day, and hay and grass - and that's it!!  Apparently I should be feeding loads of various supplements and having a "trimmer" out at £45 a shot!! Think I'll carry on as I am thanks!
		
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Mine is unshod, and perfectly happy on £15 trims every 8 weeks by a good farrier, grass and hay. Nowt else. Best feet I've ever seen, and I can assure you I've had to deal with the Worst Feet Imaginable with my previous horse!


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## Horseyscot (26 April 2012)

My two , in my books, aren't barefoot, they're unshod. And fed and maintained as they would be if they were ( and sometimes are) shod. Who actually invented the whole barefoot thing???  it amazes me how so many are sucked in by new fangled terminology ... Never mind, I'll just go and crawl back under my stone


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## dressagelove (26 April 2012)

Well aren't you lucky. I'm sure if we could do it like that we would, but just because I can't do it that way with mine, doesn't mean I'm doing it wrong!


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## Littlelegs (26 April 2012)

Mine too are unshod & trimmed by farrier with no special diets or any supplements. But it doesn't mean all horses will be like that, & I don't feel criticized by not doing all the other stuff. Just lucky I don't need to.


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## cptrayes (26 April 2012)

maisie06 said:



			Cripes no!!!!! If I take shoes off my welsh cob he walks like a 50 year old, laminitic, arthritic 3 legged donkey!!!! He just does not cope so shoes it is!! Alf on the other hand is the one you would expect to need shoes with his white feet and little TB style feet??!
		
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Right, so the truth is that you have one of the many, many, many horses who do it easily and have no shoes on it.  

And you have one who doesn't do it easily and you don't want to find out why, you just shoe him.

Doesn't sound so great to me, sorry


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## maggiesmum (26 April 2012)

Consider yourself blessed, I have a TB who needs very careful management to keep him barefoot and happy and another TB who needs no special management and does just fine, as someone pointed out diet is a very individual thing... for instance my OH loves garlic (no vampires in our house!) but I can't eat it, the slightest bit irritates my IBS and makes me  very ill.


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## Horseyscot (26 April 2012)

dressagelove said:



			Well aren't you lucky. I'm sure if we could do it like that we would, but just because I can't do it that way with mine, doesn't mean I'm doing it wrong!



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If that was aimed at me, I never said anyone was doing it wrong, nor did I say how a shod or unshod horse should be managed. All I was really getting at was the whole barefoot thing, and when it became 'barefoot' instead of unshod, or no shoes on.


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## cptrayes (26 April 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			If that was aimed at me, I never said anyone was doing it wrong, nor did I say how a shod or unshod horse should be managed. All I was really getting at was the whole barefoot thing, and when it became 'barefoot' instead of unshod, or no shoes on. 

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For me it was when I wanted to stop talking about horses as though shoes were expected. Shoeless for me is a state where a horse who normally wears shoes has none on. Barefoot for me  is where a horse will never have them on except for medical reasons. I get out of bed barefoot in the morning and so do my horses.

But it baffles the hell out of me why people get so hung up about the term instead of talking about the horses and what really matters.


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## Horseyscot (26 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			For me it was when I wanted to stop talking about horses as though shoes were expected. Shoeless for me is a state where a horse who normally wears shoes has none on. Barefoot for me  is where a horse will never have them on except for medical reasons. I get out of bed barefoot in the morning and so do my horses.

But it baffles the hell out of me why people get so hung up about the term instead of talking about the horses and what really matters.
		
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It baffles me why they have to be called barefoot as oppose to unshod or shoeless. Maybe we should just agree to differ?


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## cptrayes (26 April 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			It baffles me why they have to be called barefoot as oppose to unshod or shoeless. Maybe we should just agree to differ?
		
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I don't care what word you use but shoeless to me means something else, and I want to distance myself from the time when it was believed that no horses could work hard without shoes - barefoot does that for me.


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## Delta99 (26 April 2012)

Are you actually saying that none of your horses have thrush????!

When I look on the barefoot forum, it seems that every other barefoot horse has thrush! 

Shod horses have this too, apparently, but it's hidden by the shoes... 

I don't know what's more worrying, the idea that such a large number of horses actually have thrush, or the thought of what people are putting on perfectly healthy hooves to treat the perceived thrush?


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## Goldenstar (26 April 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			It baffles me why they have to be called barefoot as oppose to unshod or shoeless. Maybe we should just agree to differ?
		
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It bugged me too now I am completly inconsistent and call it all sorts of things it does not really matter does it.


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## amandap (26 April 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			It baffles me why they have to be called barefoot as oppose to unshod or shoeless. Maybe we should just agree to differ?
		
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Semantics to some extent but shoeless also implies that shoes are 'normal' which clearly they aren't or they'd be born wearing them. Not having a go, I suppose it depends what we as individuals see as the norm.  Doesn't really matter to me but I'm used to the word barefoot...


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## rhino (26 April 2012)

amandap said:



			Semantics to some extent but shoeless also implies that shoes are 'normal' which clearly they aren't or they'd be born wearing them. Not having a go, I suppose it depends what we as individuals see as the norm.  Doesn't really matter to me but I'm used to the word barefoot...
		
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But horses don't have _feet_, that's what people are getting at. They have _hooves_  Nothing to do with the 'bare' part, just the 'foot' part


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## cptrayes (26 April 2012)

Delta99 said:



			When I look on the barefoot forum, it seems that every other barefoot horse has thrush! 
?
		
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People only post when they have a problem. Do you expect me to post a thread saying  "here are some barefoot horses without thrush?"


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## cptrayes (26 April 2012)

Delta99 said:



			Shod horses have thrush too, apparently, but it's hidden by the shoes... 

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No, white line disease is hidden by the shoes and a  huge proportion of shod horses have it.

Thrush is in the frog, not the sole or the hoof wall, and the treatments recommended are completely harmless if the horse does not actually have it, so better safe than sorry, in my book.


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## amandap (26 April 2012)

rhino said:



			But horses don't have _feet_, that's what people are getting at. They have _hooves_  Nothing to do with the 'bare' part, just the 'foot' part 

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Isn't part of the hoof called the foot? Can't remember exactly. I've got hooves (ok cloven) and a long tail actually. 

Re thrush... often it's a case of recognizing it. Not as easy to see discomfort with shoes on as generally the frog is off the ground and the hoofs expansion and contraction is limited.

ps. Should we say barehoof then? lol


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## Horseyscot (26 April 2012)

rhino said:



			But horses don't have _feet_, that's what people are getting at. They have _hooves_  Nothing to do with the 'bare' part, just the 'foot' part 

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To be perfectly honest, I don't really refer to mine as anything, the farrier comes, trims hooves and goes. They are not barefoot though, they are just , well I don't really know, I do know though I don't get a barefoot blinking trimmer, my fully trained farrier does the job just fine .


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## cptrayes (26 April 2012)

rhino said:



			But horses don't have _feet_, that's what people are getting at. They have _hooves_  Nothing to do with the 'bare' part, just the 'foot' part 

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I've seen you post this often before Rhino and never posted, but I can't let you carry on, sorry 

My horses all have four feet, which happen also to be hooves. My cats have four feet which happen also to be paws.

Horses have always been referred to as having feet. "No foot no horse". "Lame in the right forefoot".  The question is always "which foot is he lame on" and never "which hoof is he lame on" etc etc etc.

So all our horses have feet - what on earth is going on with yours  ??


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## ester (26 April 2012)

barehooved it is then, rolls of the tongue nicely   

Delta99 my shod pony & horse never had thrush, because the frogs were heavily trimmed every 6 weeks by the farrier. Now one has had shoes off we don't want to trim them as we want them to grow and contact the floor so they have gone a bit bitty in the meantime. He has developed a bit of a pocket where his frog was making an impression on the underside of the bar shoe which poss got a bit thrushy while in the shoe and I am treating conservatively currently. I don't know but wonder if it is this sort of thing that is different between shod and barehooved 

Eta he also had lovely bits of white line disease/black gunk under his shoes in all four feet.


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## Goldenstar (26 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			No, white line disease is hidden by the shoes and a  huge proportion of shod horses have it.

Thrush is in the frog, not the sole or the hoof wall, and the treatments recommended are completely harmless if the horse does not actually have it, so better safe than sorry, in my book.
		
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That's where I am too even before I got into this naked joined toes feet hoof thing thrush in more noticeable without shoes with naked feet or whatever because the frogs  have more contact with the ground .
My horses don't get thrush because I am always on top of  there foot/hoof or whatever hygiene but I always was that's nothing to do with barefoot ( gosh that's easier).


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## Delta99 (26 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			No, white line disease is hidden by the shoes and a  huge proportion of shod horses have it.

Thrush is in the frog, not the sole or the hoof wall, and the treatments recommended are completely harmless if the horse does not actually have it, so better safe than sorry, in my book.
		
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I know what thrush is, thank you and believe me, it is hard to mistake it.

But I do think a lot of people are using it as an excuse to explain why their horse is footy. 
And I would not class bleach as harmless....


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## rhino (26 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I've seen you post this often before Rhino and never posted, but I can't let you carry on, sorry 

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I wasn't aware I had posted that before, and a search of my posts on here would back that up, unless you know any 'better'. Please can you point out where I've ever used that phrase? And I'll 'carry on' as long as I like thank you, it is a public forum and I am breaking none of the terms or conditions 

Why not 'foot' boots then? Or 'foot' rasps? Barefoot to me, and to a lot of others, smacks of fluffy anthropomorphia and not the professional image that could otherwise be. In my opinion


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## JFTDWS (26 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			"Lame in the right forefoot".  

The question is always "which foot is he lame on" and never "which hoof is he lame on" etc etc etc.
		
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I've never heard the former and the latter is always "which _leg_ is he lame on?" followed by a discussion of whether the lameness is in the hoof or higher up after that, round here.  "no foot, no horse" has always wound me up for the same reason, as it happens.


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## cptrayes (26 April 2012)

rhino said:



			I wasn't aware I had posted that before, and a search of my posts on here would back that up, unless you know any 'better'. Please can you point out where I've ever used that phrase? And I'll 'carry on' as long as I like thank you, it is a public forum and I am breaking none of the terms or conditions 

Why not 'foot' boots then? Or 'foot' rasps? Barefoot to me, and to a lot of others, smacks of fluffy anthropomorphia and not the professional image that could otherwise be. In my opinion 

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oooooooooooooooooooooooooh! Get you   I'm so sorry I wrote it incorrectly Rhino, what I meant was "I cannot allow you to carry on uncorrected".

Yes, why not "foot boots". And why not "no hoof no horse". Both terms are used.


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## Purple Duck (26 April 2012)

I REALLY hope that someone can answer a question for me...

Is "Barefoot" not the same as "Un-shod"?

Neither of my mares wear shoes and they are trimmed by a farrier (same farrier for approx14 years!!) And neither of them have Ever worn shoes!

xXx


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## amandap (26 April 2012)

rhino said:



			Why not 'foot' boots then? Or 'foot' rasps? Barefoot to me, and to a lot of others, smacks of fluffy anthropomorphia and not the professional image that could otherwise be. In my opinion 

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So does shoes to me actually.

Re frogs and trimming. Frogs should be able to grow a thick calloused covering for protection. Constantly trimming it stops this happening and actually allows thrush to invade easily. I think when trimming stops any thrush hanging around then gets more of a hold because diseased tissue isn't constantly trimmed away. Hence need for treatment in barefoot horses until callous and strong frog develops. Just my thinking not fact! Except the bit about the frog callousing. Thrush does not always smell or look black btw. It can be so deep in the central sulcus it can invade the corium and even digital cushion. Thrush is something to take seriously imo.
Here's some healthy frogs with tough covering/callous. http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/h.../www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/pin-ups.html


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## dafthoss (26 April 2012)

rhino said:



			Why not 'foot' boots then? Or 'foot' rasps? Barefoot to me, and to a lot of others, *smacks of fluffy anthropomorphia *and not the professional image that could otherwise be. In my opinion 

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Dont tell the yellow pony that or he will say he cant do any thing because he is a fluffy bunny and an utter diva  although I think he would pull off a big set of bunny ears


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## Horseyscot (26 April 2012)

So cptrayes, ten years ago, we're your horses unshod or barefoot????


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## rhino (26 April 2012)

amandap said:



			So does shoes to me actually.
		
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Or to give them their full name, _horse_shoes 



dafthoss said:



			Dont tell the yellow pony that or he will say he cant do any thing because he is a fluffy bunny and an utter diva  although I think he would pull off a big set of bunny ears 

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These ones. Sparkly and they'd blend in well


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## JFTDWS (26 April 2012)

they won't do, rhino.  He needs them in hot pink


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## debsg (26 April 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			To be perfectly honest, I don't really refer to mine as anything, the farrier comes, trims hooves and goes. They are not barefoot though, they are just , well I don't really know, I do know though I don't get a barefoot blinking trimmer, my fully trained farrier does the job just fine . 

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I don't get a 'barefoot blinking trimmer' either, just a farrier who knows how to do a proper performance trim as opposed to a pasture trim. Mine costs £15. But I'm not opposed to a good barefoot trimmer either. I choose not to have one because my particular farrier trims well. My previous farrier SHOD well, but would only pasture trim and was averse to taking shoes off. He was not supportive of me taking my cob barefoot, or keeping my youngster barefoot. His loss, not mine.
I call mine barefoot because that's what I call them. Some people say 'toilet', some say 'lavatory' and some say 'loo' - at the end of the day it's a receptacle to pee in!
Unshod/barefoot? Does it REALLY matter what you call it, or who does it. As long as the job is done well, horse is sound and owner is happy.


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## rhino (26 April 2012)

JFTD said:



			they won't do, rhino.  He needs them in hot pink 

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  sowwy

These do? Pink and flashy


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## dafthoss (26 April 2012)

*hides computer so that yellow pony never sees this*  He would love them though, he has a set of antlers for christmas so he could be the easter bunny as well .


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## JFTDWS (26 April 2012)

much more like it!


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## Horseyscot (26 April 2012)

Purple Duck said:



			I REALLY hope that someone can answer a question for me...

Is "Barefoot" not the same as "Un-shod"?

Neither of my mares wear shoes and they are trimmed by a farrier (same farrier for approx14 years!!) And neither of them have Ever worn shoes!

xXx
		
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My point exactly, but somewhere in the last few years, 'barefoot' has been born. But all of us with unshod, or without shoes equines know nothing and should call in the 'professional' barefoot trimmers pronto.....


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## cptrayes (26 April 2012)

rhino said:



			I wasn't aware I had posted that before, and a search of my posts on here would back that up, unless you know any 'better'. Please can you point out where I've ever used that phrase?
		
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OK, can't find any posts where you have said it before, so I am confusing you with someone else who has said it often. Apologies. What I have found, though, is post after post after post of yours on all sorts of other threads referring to horses _*feet*_, so now I am wondering why you posted that they don't have any.


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## Fiona clark (26 April 2012)

It depends what your cuddly is used to I'd say, some horses can go barefoot no probs and some are super sensitive x


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## rhino (26 April 2012)




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## rhino (26 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			OK, can't find any posts where you have said it before, so I am confusing you with someone else who has said it often. Apologies. What I have found, though, is post after post after post of yours on all sorts of other threads referring to horses _*feet*_, so now I am wondering why you posted that they don't have any.
		
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I'm just an humble little horse owner, not trying to market any revolutionary new way of managing horses  I also call my horse ginger though that's not technically correct! 

Apology accepted


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## Fii (26 April 2012)

Is the frog never trimmed at all in "barefoot " horses then?


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## cptrayes (26 April 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			So cptrayes, ten years ago, we're your horses unshod or barefoot????
		
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Neither.

They were shod, because for 25 years I fell hook line and sinker for the line the farriers sold me that all horses that do roadwork need shoes.

It was the barefoot movement from America that alerted me to the fact that this was not true and I bless them for it every single day.


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## Goldenstar (26 April 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			My point exactly, but somewhere in the last few years, 'barefoot' has been born. But all of us with unshod, or without shoes equines know nothing and should call in the 'professional' barefoot trimmers pronto.....
		
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Horseyscot why can't people call it what they like its no skin off your nose if your without shoes horses ( or whatever ) are happy great no ones telling you what to do think or whatever.
But if people post threads asking questions people are going to answer surely that's good,  they can call what they are doing anything they like, they can have anyone they trust trim there horses feet/ hooves how does that affect you ?
I don't remember anyone saying that people who are happy with there foot care arrangements they should change.
But if ask what do you do or how do you people will answer I don't see why that's an issue for you.


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## mymare (26 April 2012)

...which reminds me, must buy a new foot pick tomorrow.


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## cptrayes (26 April 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			My point exactly, but somewhere in the last few years, 'barefoot' has been born. But all of us with unshod, or without shoes equines know nothing and should call in the 'professional' barefoot trimmers pronto.....
		
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I think you need to question why it makes you feel so insecure that someone wants to call their horse barefoot.

No-one on this forum ever tells anyone with a sound horse with no shoes on that they need to change anything or that they know nothing.

So why does it disturb you so much?


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## Goldenstar (26 April 2012)

Fii said:



			Is the frog never trimmed at all in "barefoot " horses then?
		
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Speaking only for my self my horse has had no trimming to his frog for six months whenI took his shoes neither has anything been trimmed from his soles.
I am lucky I have quite coarse silica sand in my school and they all have fab clean frogs. My farrier was always hacking lumps off them not sure why.


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## cptrayes (26 April 2012)

Fii said:



			Is the frog never trimmed at all in "barefoot " horses then?
		
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Only if there are flappy bits that might trap infection. Otherwise, we leave well alone because the frog goes very packed and leathery and is very resistant to stones, so you don't want to disturb the outer surface if you don't need to.

Contrary to what has been said though, thrush is not always easy to spot, it sometimes burrows little holes down into the frog which can get deep if they are missed and it does love to hide in a deep central sulcus too, and make it deeper over time.


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## Goldenstar (27 April 2012)

Goodnight folks I getting up on my hooves sorry feet not bare wearing fleece socks and going to bed.


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## bumper (27 April 2012)

Barefoot..unshod. It's just semantics!


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I think you need to question why it makes you feel so insecure that someone wants to call their horse barefoot.

No-one on this forum ever tells anyone with a sound horse with no shoes on that they need to change anything or that they know nothing.

So why does it disturb you so much?
		
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Yes I was trying to post when my internet went down again. Must be the witching hour as it did it last night at this time. 

Barefoot has certainly got people talking and strangely even if it irritates or irates they keep coming back for more. 
ps. Renaming and reclassifying has always happened. Not that long ago people with mental illness were called idiots. Idiot has a different meaning these days.


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## JFTDWS (27 April 2012)

isn't the worst thing about putting shoes on horses that we don't give them socks to wear?  surely their shoes must rub and their feet get cold?


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## cptrayes (27 April 2012)

OK the National Farrier Training Agency, who are responsible for the training of all those totally qualified farriers who know how to trim barefoot horses, says horses have feet.
Check out "What is farriery" on this site.

http://www.farrierytraining.co.uk/


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## Horseyscot (27 April 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Horseyscot why can't people call it what they like its no skin off your nose if your without shoes horses ( or whatever ) are happy great no ones telling you what to do think or whatever.
But if people post threads asking questions people are going to answer surely that's good,  they can call what they are doing anything they like, they can have anyone they trust trim there horses feet/ hooves how does that affect you ?
I don't remember anyone saying that people who are happy with there foot care arrangements they should change.
But if ask what do you do or how do you people will answer I don't see why that's an issue for you.
		
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If I'm honest, you are correct, who cares what it's called. However, for some reason you need special barefoot trimmers rather than a fully trained  farrier to tend to your equines hooves should you choose not to put shoes on it, and suddenly adopt the name barefoot. Whatever??


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## cptrayes (27 April 2012)

JFTD said:



			surely their shoes must rub and their feet get cold? 

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They do. Barefoot feet are ususally noticeably warmer than shod ones. They have a bigger blood supply.


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## Horseyscot (27 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I think you need to question why it makes you feel so insecure that someone wants to call their horse barefoot.

No-one on this forum ever tells anyone with a sound horse with no shoes on that they need to change anything or that they know nothing.

So why does it disturb you so much?
		
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Emm insecure? Grow up.


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## cptrayes (27 April 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			If I'm honest, you are correct, who cares what it's called. However, for some reason you need special barefoot trimmers rather than a fully trained  farrier to tend to your equines hooves should you choose not to put shoes on it, and suddenly adopt the name barefoot. Whatever??
		
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Horseyscot the reason why some people need a barefoot trimmer is because farriers are NOT universally trained to trim hardworking feet. The syllabus is quite clear. Unless an apprentice has a Master who has hardworking barefooters on his books he will never see one, never mind learn about how metabolic disease and nutrition affect many barefoot horses. Most apprentices finish their apprenticeship without ever seeing a barefoot hunter, eventer or  long distance horse and are completely unaware how to manage them. Some of the really great farriers have put themselves out to learn and even taken the qualifications offered by the trimming organisations. Some of those are now reluctant ever to shoe a horse. Moorman who posts on this forum is one of them. 

Until the Farriery training is sorted out, barefoot trimmers will still be needed. When the training is fixed, the horse footcare world will be easier for people to understand and better for all of us.


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

JFTD said:



			isn't the worst thing about putting shoes on horses that we don't give them socks to wear?  surely their shoes must rub and their feet get cold? 

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 You only need socks in boots if they rub. They don't get cold.  That's another reason I'm not keen on shoes, hooves get cold and no one puts socks on.


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## Horseyscot (27 April 2012)

Currently anyone can set themselves up as a barefoot trimmer, potentially without holding any qualification or having any relevant experience. This is clearly a serious welfare issue. It is not appropriate for someone with insufficient training and experience to trim a horses hooves. There are a number of significant welfare risks ranging from laming the horse by over-trimming or poor hoof balance to advising the owner that the horse is capable of work that it is not able to do without risking harm to the feet.

That quote says it all. Night


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## JFTDWS (27 April 2012)

Do they make thick long socks to go in boots? Like horsey hiking socks for endurance ponies? Cos if they do them in funky knee high stripey designs I am so in.  They would totally suit the highland


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## rhino (27 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			never mind learn about how metabolic disease and nutrition affect many barefoot horses.
		
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Regarding the nutrition aspect, I'm shocked that the UKNHCP (did I get that right?) thinks that Dr Kellon's online course is enough. There are no assignments, and the 'exam' can be taken as many times as possible. As it's online it could be done by anyone, there is no guarantee that the candidate is sitting the exam, or that they are not busy on google at the time  Results also don't seem to undergo any moderation... Basically you are 'buying' yourself a qualification


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

JFTD said:



			Do they make thick long socks to go in boots? Like horsey hiking socks for endurance ponies? Cos if they do them in funky knee high stripey designs I am so in.  They would totally suit the highland 

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Never seen any but I use a pair of my long ski socks to keep my mini laminitic pony's front hooves and legs warm in minus 8 winters.


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## bumper (27 April 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			Currently anyone can set themselves up as a barefoot trimmer, potentially without holding any qualification or having any relevant experience. This is clearly a serious welfare issue. It is not appropriate for someone with insufficient training and experience to trim a horses hooves. There are a number of significant welfare risks ranging from laming the horse by over-trimming or poor hoof balance to advising the owner that the horse is capable of work that it is not able to do without risking harm to the feet.

That quote says it all. Night 

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Yup, sadly!


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

What nutrition course do farriers do out of interest. Never thought to ask before. As was said last night nutrition affects all horses not just barefoot ones.


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## cptrayes (27 April 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			Currently anyone can set themselves up as a barefoot trimmer, potentially without holding any qualification or having any relevant experience.
		
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I agree with you that this is wrong, and so do most barefooters.




Horseyscot said:



			It is not appropriate for someone with insufficient training and experience to trim a horses hooves.
		
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I agree with you. Which makes it all the more inexplicable that most farriery apprentices who qualify this year will still have been taught that hardworking horses must have shoes on; still never have even seen a hardworking barefoot horse; still have no idea how much sensitivity to grass will affect whether some horses can go without shoes; still routinely shoe every three year old that the owner asks them to shoe, without even questionning whether the horse needs shoes or not or trying to advise the owner how to keep it barefoot; still think that bar shoes are a good way to resolve horses with caudal hoof lameness, etc etc etc etc.

I wish the Worshipful Company of Farriers would get this sorted out I really do. All of us would like to be certain of who can really be trusted for our horses foot care.


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## bumper (27 April 2012)

I wish there was a "like" button!


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## JFTDWS (27 April 2012)

I'm seeing a niche in the Market here. I must set up a horsey sock shop and make a fortune


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## rhino (27 April 2012)

JFTD said:



			I'm seeing a niche in the Market here. I must set up a horsey sock shop and make a fortune 

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Bit late, haven't you heard of whinny warmers 

http://www.whinnywarmers.com/


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## dafthoss (27 April 2012)

Not my farriers apprentice  and he does a blimmin good trim. Intrestingly the farrier has trimmed his frogs a little in the past but the apprentice hasnt, neiter way made a diffrence to him but it made me wonder if he was being taught diffrently at college.

ETA if your doing pony socks yellow pony wants a set of waterproof pink sparkly ones to keep his twinkle toes clean and dry


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## cptrayes (27 April 2012)

I am just scanning this document. I can find no reference whatsoever to nutrition or to knowing what work a horse can do without shoes on.

http://www.wcf.org.uk/files/App 1 Diploma Examination Syllabus.pdf


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I am just scanning this document. I can find no reference whatsoever to nutrition or to knowing what work a horse can do without shoes on.

http://www.wcf.org.uk/files/App 1 Diploma Examination Syllabus.pdf

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Thanks, I can't either. I'm going to study it tomorrow as I find it very interesting.


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## debsg (27 April 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			Currently anyone can set themselves up as a barefoot trimmer, potentially without holding any qualification or having any relevant experience. This is clearly a serious welfare issue. It is not appropriate for someone with insufficient training and experience to trim a horses hooves. There are a number of significant welfare risks ranging from laming the horse by over-trimming or poor hoof balance to advising the owner that the horse is capable of work that it is not able to do without risking harm to the feet.

That quote says it all. Night 

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This is absolutely true, which is why people are working to set up national qualifications and regulations.
Equally, you can get fully qualified farriers, who shoe badly, fit the foot to the shoe, over rasp the wall of the foot etc etc................ 
A bad job is a bad job, qualifications or not, trimmer or farrier. Once you find someone that you and your horse are happy with, you hang on to them! Personally, I don't give a big rat's arse what he/she calls themselves.
Night all! xx


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## Chavhorse (27 April 2012)

Another one here who's horse gets a 20 quid trim by the Farrier when he comes up to trim and shoe all the other horses at the yard, except he has not trimmed him for six months as the horse is self trimming and he does not want to interfere  This is the same farrier who when I arrived over from Holland with a list of special shoeing requirements, gel pads and rolled toes as suggested by my Dutch vet said "B*LL*Ks to that, lets try him on a good balancing trim and see how he goes".....The man is a god!

I do feed mine some suppliments i.e micronised linseed, Apple Cider Vinegar, Brewers Yeast and a good joint supplement but that is because he has chronic side bones at six years old.

Horse is sound as a pound on all surfaces and working 6 days a week.


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## MerrySherryRider (27 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I agree with you that this is wrong, and so do most barefooters.




I agree with you. Which makes it all the more inexplicable that most farriery apprentices who qualify this year will still have been taught that hardworking horses must have shoes on; still never have even seen a hardworking barefoot horse; still have no idea how much sensitivity to grass will affect whether some horses can go without shoes; still routinely shoe every three year old that the owner asks them to shoe, without even questionning whether the horse needs shoes or not or trying to advise the owner how to keep it barefoot; still think that bar shoes are a good way to resolve horses with caudal hoof lameness, etc etc etc etc.

I wish the Worshipful Company of Farriers would get this sorted out I really do. All of us would like to be certain of who can really be trusted for our horses foot care.
		
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This kind of ill informed farrier bashing that is simply untrue. I have known many farriers over the years who have always been in favour of keeping horses unshod. 
Do you honestly think farriers and their apprentices never see hardworking unshod horses ? Believe it or not, some of us have been riding such horses for the last 40 years before the Barefoot cult became fashionable.
Most farriers come from horsey backgrounds, grew up with, and still keep horses. They have a pretty good idea about how to keep horses healthy and reduce laminitis risk.
Its laughable to suggest they do not know about how sensitive some horses are to grass.

Contrast that to a friend who is a qualified trimmer. Never went near a horse til the age of 45. Has only ever owned one horse and decided to train as a trimmer. Took 3 months, mostly doing an on line course, before being a student trimmer and going solo and charging for trims. Now fully fledged, does about 3 trims a month. 
Lovely person, but very novice, everything comes out of a book, has little real working knowledge. 

As for the term Barefoot, I prefer Unshod because the fashion for barefoot lifestyle has made it a bit cringeworthy.


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## LucyPriory (27 April 2012)

horserider said:



			This kind of ill informed farrier bashing that is simply untrue. I have known many farriers over the years who have always been in favour of keeping horses unshod. 
Do you honestly think farriers and their apprentices never see hardworking unshod horses ? Believe it or not, some of us have been riding such horses for the last 40 years before the Barefoot cult became fashionable.
Most farriers come from horsey backgrounds, grew up with, and still keep horses. They have a pretty good idea about how to keep horses healthy and reduce laminitis risk.
Its laughable to suggest they do not know about how sensitive some horses are to grass.

Contrast that to a friend who is a qualified trimmer. Never went near a horse til the age of 45. Has only ever owned one horse and decided to train as a trimmer. Took 3 months, mostly doing an on line course, before being a student trimmer and going solo and charging for trims. Now fully fledged, does about 3 trims a month. 
Lovely person, but very novice, everything comes out of a book, has little real working knowledge. 

As for the term Barefoot, I prefer Unshod because the fashion for barefoot lifestyle has made it a bit cringeworthy.
		
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It does vary hugely.  The local guy who used to (maybe still does) do most of the apprentice training in my area was (is?) truly dreadful and his unlucky apprentices got to follow in his footsteps.  Had no idea about diet, exercise or laminitis and was keen to shoe (and pad) horses as young as possible. Quite unintentionally I'm sure but he was the main driver behind me and maybe others taking the shoes off our horses.


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## tallyho! (27 April 2012)

horserider said:



			This kind of ill informed farrier bashing that is simply untrue. I have known many farriers over the years who have always been in favour of keeping horses unshod. 
Do you honestly think farriers and their apprentices never see hardworking unshod horses ? Believe it or not, some of us have been riding such horses for the last 40 years before the Barefoot cult became fashionable.
Most farriers come from horsey backgrounds, grew up with, and still keep horses. They have a pretty good idea about how to keep horses healthy and reduce laminitis risk.
Its laughable to suggest they do not know about how sensitive some horses are to grass.

Contrast that to a friend who is a qualified trimmer. Never went near a horse til the age of 45. Has only ever owned one horse and decided to train as a trimmer. Took 3 months, mostly doing an on line course, before being a student trimmer and going solo and charging for trims. Now fully fledged, does about 3 trims a month. 
Lovely person, but very novice, everything comes out of a book, has little real working knowledge. 

As for the term Barefoot, I prefer Unshod because the fashion for barefoot lifestyle has made it a bit cringeworthy.
		
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Yes,SOME of you. Not ALL.

the world is not black and white and everyone's experience is different and they will be shaped by their experience just like I am.

I have fallen out with two farriers who lamed my horse so therefore I have an aversion to them.

Very happy with my qualified trimmer, thanks. 

Why should ANYONE give a rats whether one person calls it barefoot? You are all like blinkin children, THAT'S CRINGEWORTHY!!!!!


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## AngieandBen (27 April 2012)

Same here Tallyho, I've got through three farriers in a year, none of which had a clue how to trim my ponies for working barefoot. Sliced the frog, dug out the sole  dubbed the toes;   all said if I did more that a couple of hours a week riding on roads, they will have to put shoes on   ............over my dead body!

I'm very happy with my trimmer, whether its £40, I don't care, its still a small price to pay for keeping my ponies hooves in good nick.  Btw a lot of trimmers do cover a huge area, mine comes about 40 miles.


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## tallyho! (27 April 2012)

It's good to hear that horses are being trimmed well by farriers in various places around the country. I have just learned that my old farrier (the only farrier I still get on with) now works with a barefoot trimmer. Has no qualms in calling it barefoot, even puts it on his price sheet. Charges a bit more than he does for a pasture trim. 

And, why not??? 

Why are all farriers who do a good job trimming performance feet only charging a tenner? Are they stupid? Sorry, I like saying it how it is. 

The owners they trim for are probably happy to pay £100 for a blinkin rug yet will only shell out £10 to keep the horse on all four feet?? 

I just think they are short changing themselves and could it be to do with that little chip on the shoulder about BAREFOOT? LOL 

Integration would benefit everyone. Most of all, the horse.


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## maisie06 (27 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Right, so the truth is that you have one of the many, many, many horses who do it easily and have no shoes on it.  

And you have one who doesn't do it easily and you don't want to find out why, you just shoe him.

Doesn't sound so great to me, sorry 

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I shoe him to keep him working happily he is a working animal not a pet and if he needs shoes he gets them, simples. See I KNEW this would turn into a witch hunt!!! My horses my choice. This is EXACTLY the preachy, holier than thou attitude I hate about the barefoot clan.


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## TicTac (27 April 2012)

What is right for some horses doesn't mean to say it is right for all. TBH I am getting a bit fed up with the barefoot/ unshod/ au natural guru's almost making me feel guilty because my horse is shod.

I'm sure at the end of the day, to keep a horse in it's natural state is better all round be it living out 24/7, rugless or unshod. But most of us aren't able to keep our horses like that because of the modern day constraints we have. ie postage size paddocks with no hedging and the necessity for road work etc etc

I have kept horses now for 40 years and never had a foot related problem that has been caused by shoeing. Yes they have pulled shoes and got the odd abscess but nothing that has been detrimental to the horse. I expect some of you will disagree but they are my horses and I would challange anybody who told me that I wasn't doing the best I can for my horses with what I've been given.

If I thought my mare would benefit from having her front shoes off ( both are only shod in front anyway) I would do it but I can tell you now that she wouldn't eat magnesium powder, be happy on restricted grazing if she went ' footy' or be happy to walk up and down a stoney road to get to our bridleways.

Like I said at the beginning every horse is different and I admire the way some people go about re-habing their horses from shod to un shod. Good for you but dont try and tell me it's the only and best way for MY horse.


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## touchstone (27 April 2012)

TicTac said:



			Like I said at the beginning every horse is different and I admire the way some people go about re-habing their horses from shod to un shod. Good for you but dont try and tell me it's the only and best way for MY horse.
		
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Who is telling you that?  From the barefoot(/barehoof /unshod) :rollseyes: posts I have read they seem to recommend shoeing if it suits horse and owner better.


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## MerrySherryRider (27 April 2012)

Performance trim ? Whats that all about ? I must tell my farrier he's been giving my lot 'performance' trims all these years to enable them to 'rock crunch' over car parks.
Or maybe its the old cob Performance Trimming himself as he zooms around the countryside. Better not tell either of them, else they'll be wanting the £65a friend was paying a trimmer.
 Thankfully, no one's told them about The Barefoot Diet so far.

Pah, Parelli's old hat. Barefoot is the new buzz.


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## debsg (27 April 2012)

Tic Tac - just to pick up a point in your post. Many people seem to think that you cannot do roadwork without shoes. Probably true for most horses who have just had their shoes off - their feet may well wear down too quickly at first. Once the foot has adjusted, the growth keeps up with the wear.
My two girls do hours on roads every week with no problems.
What bugs me about the 'anti barefoot' people is the implication that we are all part of this 'barefoot movement', have chosen to take our horses shoes off like women burning their bras in the 70's, to 'liberate' them, and that we are all totally against farriers and shoeing!
Yes there are some radicals out there, as in all walks of life, but please stop tarring us all with the same brush.
Oh, Horserider, a performance trim is just rolling the edges more than a pasture trim, nothing mysterious or fancy. If I asked my farrier to just trim, he would pasture trim. It saves me work bevelling the edges on my TB's granite feet 
And I pay £15 each. Most trimmers I know are £35 ish.


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## MerrySherryRider (27 April 2012)

debsg said:



			What bugs me about the 'anti barefoot' people is the implication that we are all part of this 'barefoot movement', have chosen to take our horses shoes off like women burning their bras in the 70's, to 'liberate' them, and that we are all totally against farriers and shoeing!
Yes there are some radicals out there, as in all walks of life, but please stop tarring us all with the same brush.
		
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Now thats the thing, I always keep shoes off my horses unless there is a specific need to shoe. The radicals on here shout so loudly that the more open minded of us are totally put off this so called new invention of performance trimming, special diets and array of boots.

 Many owners and farriers prefer to keep shoes off and do so quietly and without fuss, but making people feel that they are failing because they shoe is not on. They have more recently become more PC due to being challenged in the past,but some of us have long memories and recall posters being verbally hammered because they couldn't realistically commit to the regime prescribed by some of the more excessive Barefoot advocates.

FWIW, I thought £65 was excessive but the friend went back to her farrier after finding the hours the trimmer was there for and the cost was too much.


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

Do apprentices get experience with more than one master?


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## Clava (27 April 2012)

maisie06 said:



			Cripes no!!!!! If I take shoes off my welsh cob he walks like a 50 year old, laminitic, arthritic 3 legged donkey!!!! He just does not cope so shoes it is!! Alf on the other hand is the one you would expect to need shoes with his white feet and little TB style feet??!
		
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maisie06 said:



			I shoe him to keep him working happily he is a working animal not a pet and if he needs shoes he gets them, simples. See I KNEW this would turn into a witch hunt!!! My horses my choice. This is EXACTLY the preachy, holier than thou attitude I hate about the barefoot clan.
		
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But your opening post was about getting barefoot all "wrong" which obviously you are not with him, but maybe with a more educated approach you could be equally happy with no shoes on your welsh, but it might mean taking on board some of the advice about diet and supplements and following some of the barefoot suggestions to get him sound without shoes?




maisie06 said:



			According to them I'm doing it all wrong!! Alf has feet of iron, good quality horn, which goes to show people who say white hooves are weak are talking crap! He is ridden on all surfaces without a problem, yet I don't go overboard with his diet - 1 scoop of marksway hoofkind twice a day, and hay and grass - and that's it!!  Apparently I should be feeding loads of various supplements and having a "trimmer" out at £45 a shot!! Think I'll carry on as I am thanks!
		
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## Lady La La (27 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Right, so the truth is that you have one of the many, many, many horses who do it easily and have no shoes on it.  

And you have one who doesn't do it easily and you don't want to find out why, you just shoe him.

Doesn't sound so great to me, sorry 

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_Or_ you could say that she keeps both her horses in a manner that ensures they are comfortable, and happy to work 
So the welsh cob wasn't happy barefoot, she tried and he wasn't comfortable so she had him shod and low and behold... he's comfortable. 
Fair play, I say, for not subjecting the horse to months and months if not years (in the case of some people) of being cripplingly uncomfortable all in the name of 'barefooted happiness'

I would be much more inclined to listen to your views Cptrayes, if you wern't so closed minded. Yes, barefoot is great... but there *is* such a thing as a happily shod horse. There *is* such a thing as a horse that needs shoes. There *is* such a thing as a horse that requires studs.

Doesn't take away from the fact that keeping horses unshod is great, just means there are plenty of occasions where keeping horses shod is great too


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## MerrySherryRider (27 April 2012)

amandap said:



			Do apprentices get experience with more than one master?
		
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The farrier apprentices do around here. The lads spend time with my former farrier who doesn't take on apprentices, also, farriers and their lads will often join up and work together when they are extra busy.

 Some farriers here go to the vet hospital clinics with the master farrier so they can work on a horse together and usually there'll be 2 or 3 lads with them, plus vet students.


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## Goldenstar (27 April 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			If I'm honest, you are correct, who cares what it's called. However, for some reason you need special barefoot trimmers rather than a fully trained  farrier to tend to your equines hooves should you choose not to put shoes on it, and suddenly adopt the name barefoot. Whatever??
		
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What do you about how I deal with my horses feet ?
When you say you do you mean you as in you are lumping all people who work there horses without shoes together which makes no sense.
Or do you mean you as in me in which case that's silly you don't know how I deal with my horses feet.
Since you seem interested I have a very traditional farrier he is not that going to embrace change he's a traditional hunter type shoe man.
When I took me first horses shoes off his apprentice did the trimming after a of times the apprentice and I spoke I asked lots of questions and he said I dont know.
So I asked around and found though recommendation the man who doing them now he's a low impact trimmer ( my words tring to explain ) he thinks all changes should gradual and lead by the horse and the work it's doing . I was more comfortable with that approach as I would say its impossible  for his approach to make a horse sore .
I did not want someone who would something radical to the feet.
The apprentice is interested and always looks at the horses feet when he's here and asked how we are doing.
So I ask you am I better to get a man who trims horses in work all the time to do it or a farrier who admits he knows nothing about performance horses working with no shoes ?
To me it's a no brainer I have learnt a lot and I am happy end of.


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## Clava (27 April 2012)

Lady La La said:



_Or_ you could say that she keeps both her horses in a manner that ensures they are comfortable, and happy to work 
So the welsh cob wasn't happy barefoot, she tried and he wasn't comfortable so she had him shod and low and behold... he's comfortable. 
Fair play, I say, for not subjecting the horse to months and months if not years (in the case of some people) of being cripplingly uncomfortable all in the name of 'barefooted happiness'
		
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But the OP was proud of not having to feed supplements and have a special trimmer because she didn't need them, but maybe she did with her welsh. I don't think you can crow about how well you are doing and in effect slate others who are trying hard when you haven't done the same with the horse who is more problematic going without shoes. Some people will just have a horse like the welsh but still want to have as healthy horse as possible and not want to shoe so they need to do more.

There is never any need for a barefoot horse to suffer any discomfort, boots work well when shoes first come off and not everyone regards having to put shoes on as "great" for them and as not detrimental to their horses.


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

horserider said:



			The farrier apprentices do around here. The lads spend time with my former farrier who doesn't take on apprentices, also, farriers and their lads will often join up and work together when they are extra busy.

 Some farriers here go to the vet hospital clinics with the master farrier so they can work on a horse together and usually there'll be 2 or 3 lads with them, plus vet students.
		
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That's good to know. 
I see a problem with only working with one master so am glad to read experience is wider.


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## Lady La La (27 April 2012)

Clava said:



			But the OP was proud of not having to feed supplements and have a special trimmer because she didn't need them, but maybe she did with her welsh.
		
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My point was, how do you _know_ she didn't try? 




Clava said:



			I don't think you can crow about how well you are doing and in effect slate others who are trying hard
		
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I don't think that's at all what she did 



Clava said:



			There is never any need for a barefoot horse to suffer any discomfort boots work well when shoes first come off and not everyone regards having to put shoes on as "great" for them and as not detrimental to their horses.
		
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No, there is never any _need_ for a barfoot horse to suffer discomfort, just the same as there is never any _need_ for a shod horse to suffer discomfort. My point, that you seem to have failed to pick up on, was that some horses are just not happy barefoot. It's life.  I've seen it with my own eyes; people dragging it out for years, coming to places like this to ask for advice from people like you, keeping their lame horses off grass and following the guidance they are given only to end up with an even lamer horse. Sometimes, shoes are needed. It annoys me that some people on this forum refuse to see that.
I can see the benefits of an unshod horse, I can appreciate the science behind not nailing on a shoe and I fully appreciate the positive effect being barefoot can have on a hoses hoof. I can also see the benefit of a shoe, and I appreciate what good shoeing can do for certain horses. I also appreciate the shod needs a higher level competition horse might have. Apparently, not every one can. I find that a shame.


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## Clava (27 April 2012)

Lady La La said:



			My point was, how do you _know_ she didn't try? 

.
		
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why would you not mention it then??.....because it would make her "I'm doing it all wrong" post pointless.


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## ester (27 April 2012)

Lady la la I think that is where the element of owner responsibility comes in, the same goes for choosing who attends to your horses feet, ie not choosing someone completely unqualified. 

I'm in a slightly different situation in that mine isn't going to be sound in shoes, so it was retire or shoes off. Given that if he was retiring anyway he would have his shoes off it seems a sensible route to try . If he was more uncomfortable out of shoes despite my best efforts I wouldn't leave him like that. 

Having changed from my farrier when shoeing the other beast he asked why I wasn't using the most local trimmer, he thought she was qualified when I asked her she isn't, I think she probably does a good job but I wasn't happy with that.


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## Lady La La (27 April 2012)

Clava said:



			why would you not mention it then??.....because it would make her "I'm doing it all wrong" post pointless.
		
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Not really, as the 'Im doing it all wrong but it's working' was in relation to a different horse. Really, neither you or Cptrayes had any idea how she attempted to transition her welsh pony to a barefoot lifestyle. The fact is neither do I, but unlike you, I didn't jump on her for not trying hard enough


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## Ibblebibble (27 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			It's good to hear that horses are being trimmed well by farriers in various places around the country. I have just learned that my old farrier (the only farrier I still get on with) now works with a barefoot trimmer. Has no qualms in calling it barefoot, even puts it on his price sheet. Charges a bit more than he does for a pasture trim. 

And, why not??? 

Why are all farriers who do a good job trimming performance feet only charging a tenner? Are they stupid? Sorry, I like saying it how it is. 

The owners they trim for are probably happy to pay £100 for a blinkin rug yet will only shell out £10 to keep the horse on all four feet?? 

I just think they are short changing themselves and could it be to do with that little chip on the shoulder about BAREFOOT? LOL 

Integration would benefit everyone. Most of all, the horse.
		
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I wonder if farriers only charge a small amount for trimming as for them it is a basic skill, one they learn right at the start of their training Although it is a skill to balance a foot it is not IMO as skilled as fitting and putting on a shoe,plus there is very little cost in providing a trim as opposed to shoeing(cost of shoe and the cost of running the furnace,the one farrier here who cold shoes charges less than all those who hot shoe). Perhaps it is more that barefoot trimmers are fleecing their clients rather than the idiot farriers being too cheap


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## rhino (27 April 2012)

Lady La La said:



			I would be much more inclined to listen to your views Cptrayes, if you wern't so closed minded. Yes, barefoot is great... but there *is* such a thing as a happily shod horse. There *is* such a thing as a horse that needs shoes. There *is* such a thing as a horse that requires studs.
		
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Lady La La said:



			I also appreciate the shod needs a higher level competition horse might have. Apparently, not every one can. I find that a shame.
		
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You're not the only one. Flawed logic, half truths, exaggeration, emotive language and reliance on poor quality research does not an argument make.

And for the people who question why others join in 'barefoot' posts; it's to give a semblance of balance. There are some fiercely fanatic pro barefooters (And I'm using the Churchillian definition of 'won't change their mind; can't change the subject') who make an awful lot of noise on here, and the 'average' horse owner can quite easily be drowned out. The sheer abundance of barefoot posts would make a casual observer believe that it was far more common than it is.

It's very rarely discussed in CR, because to the vast majority of posters there (even ones competing to a high level) that at the end of the day it is really not a 'big thing'. Do what is best for your horse, but don't believe as gospel a lot of what is read on here.


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## Clava (27 April 2012)

Lady La La said:



			Not really, as the 'Im doing it all wrong but it's working' was in relation to a different horse. Really, neither you or Cptrayes had any idea how she attempted to transition her welsh pony to a barefoot lifestyle. The fact is neither do I, but unlike you, I didn't jump on her for not trying hard enough 

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You haven't explained why she didn't mention it??? I haven't jumped on her but she has set herself up as someone who doesn't seem to think much of feeding supplements / trimmers in the quote "Think I'll carry on as I am thanks!" and yet they could (and I only say could) be the key to why her other horse failed at barefoot, "so carrying on as I am thanks" doesn't ring so true in the whole picture.


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## Lady La La (27 April 2012)

rhino said:



			. Do what is best for your horse, but don't believe as gospel a lot of what is read on here.
		
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Amen to that Rhino 




Clava said:



			You haven't explained why she didn't mention it??? .
		
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How on earth would I know


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## ester (27 April 2012)

rhino said:



			Do what is best for your horse, but don't believe as gospel a lot of what is read on here.
		
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I think that stands for all topics


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## Amymay (27 April 2012)

maisie06 said:



			According to them I'm doing it all wrong!! Alf has feet of iron, good quality horn, which goes to show people who say white hooves are weak are talking crap! He is ridden on all surfaces without a problem, yet I don't go overboard with his diet - 1 scoop of marksway hoofkind twice a day, and hay and grass - and that's it!!  Apparently I should be feeding loads of various supplements and having a "trimmer" out at £45 a shot!! Think I'll carry on as I am thanks!
		
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In their defense, I think you may have missed the main point of what many of the BFT advocate, through their own experiences.

I must admit when my horses have been unshod, I've never given a thought to their nutrition over and above ensuring that they have enough of what I consider to be the right stuff.  And I've certainly never paid £45 for a trim.  However, only one did well without shoes (little Welsh mare).  If I could re-visit the two now that didn't do well it would be interesting to see if I could have managed them better through diet.

I've never seen the BFT talk about loads of supplements either - just one or two (not unreasonable, especially considering the amount of supplements some people feed.....).

So I don't think anyone would crow that you're doing anything wrong - you'd just be complimented for having a happy barefoot horse.


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## Goldenstar (27 April 2012)

ester said:



			Lady la la I think that is where the element of owner responsibility comes in, the same goes for choosing who attends to your horses feet, ie not choosing someone completely unqualified. 

I'm in a slightly different situation in that mine isn't going to be sound in shoes, so it was retire or shoes off. Given that if he was retiring anyway he would have his shoes off it seems a sensible route to try . If he was more uncomfortable out of shoes despite my best efforts I wouldn't leave him like that. 

Having changed from my farrier when shoeing the other beast he asked why I wasn't using the most local trimmer, he thought she was qualified when I asked her she isn't, I think she probably does a good job but I wasn't happy with that.
		
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That's it's exactly right and how it should be I took responsiblity for finding someone I was happy with to do my boys feet when it became clear that my farrier was not interested or experianced .
For me  personal recommendation and my judgement counts for more than a piece of paper approved by the government that was my judgement if the farrier had been keen to help go down the route I chose to would have been happy to go with that but it's not something he's interested in .
As its turned out its for the best I have learnt a lot from the trimmer and have access to advice to someone whos used to dealing with horses working hard without shoes I would been a bit in the dark otherwise .
They cost the same by the way .


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## dressagelove (27 April 2012)

Is it just me, or has this exact thread with exact same discussions and content been done before???

Seems like poor ol cptrayes keeps on repeating the same 'pro' barefoot arguments, barehoof, unshod, whatever you want to call it.

Read everything you want to on here, do further research, and make your own independent decision, that's what I did! Simples


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## tallyho! (27 April 2012)

horserider said:



			Now thats the thing, I always keep shoes off my horses unless there is a specific need to shoe. The radicals on here shout so loudly that the more open minded of us are totally put off this so called new invention of performance trimming, special diets and array of boots.

 Many owners and farriers prefer to keep shoes off and do so quietly and without fuss, but making people feel that they are failing because they shoe is not on. They have more recently become more PC due to being challenged in the past,but some of us have long memories and recall posters being verbally hammered because they couldn't realistically commit to the regime prescribed by some of the more excessive Barefoot advocates.

FWIW, I thought £65 was excessive but the friend went back to her farrier after finding the hours the trimmer was there for and the cost was too much.
		
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No they do not shout! Where do you get that from?

These radicals do no such thing. It's the anti-barefoot clan doing all the shouting. If it pisses you off, stop posting on barefoot threads? Go and start your own SHOD thread and leave the people that keep horses barefoot that you hate so bloody much alone.

Why participate If you have nothing to contribute apart from to call people names and slag them off and fancy pants around waving your "I'm a great farrier and I keep horses unshod banner".

Barefooters couldn't really give two tosses what anyone else does with their horses, however, when someone asks for help I don't see any farriers tripping over themselves to help given that all farriers have been trimming feet since Adam was a lad and are the be all and end all of horsey things.

Your are all too far up your own backsides to acknowledge people who try barefoot and to offer help. No, instead you post derogatory name calling posts towards those that DO at least offer some help and think you are clever.

Trimming ain't rocket science. I can do it and I am just an ordinary person with no training. My horse is sound. I wonder how different the world would be if trimming hooves were just like trimming tails and manes...


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## Amymay (27 April 2012)

No they do not shout! Where do you get that from?
		
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Actually one or two are so opinionated and evangelical in their opinions that it does put people off.  And it puts me off completely.  So I have to agree with horserider.


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## Lady La La (27 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			It's the anti-barefoot clan doing all the shouting
		
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Who are all these anti barefoot people that shout? I haven't spotted anyone one this thread yet that comes across as being anti barefoot?


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## tallyho! (27 April 2012)

Lady La La said:



			Who are all these anti barefoot people that shout? I haven't spotted anyone one this thread yet that comes across as being anti barefoot?
		
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Are you reading the same thread?


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## Lady La La (27 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Are you reading the same thread?
		
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Yes. It's possible I may have missed some post along the way though, hence my question asking who


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## rhino (27 April 2012)

amymay said:



			Actually one or two are so opinionated and evangelical in their opinions that it does put people off.  And it puts me off completely.  So I have to agree with horserider.
		
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Thirded. And Tallyho, you are the only one who seems to be getting overemotional. 

So trimming is so easy a lay person can do it, but so difficult that most farriers can't?

Farriers are bashed for having no nutritional training yet even to qualify as a (supposedly respected) UKNHCP all you have to do is buy a meaningless online qualification in nutrition from the states?

And as I said before, some people would just like a more balanced view. Lots of horses are not shod. Only a few are owned by 'barefoot' fanatics (and yes, that's Churchill's definition again)

I am again appalled at the arrogance of certain posters who believe they are the authority on managing the unshod horse. I would never criticise anyone for carrying out their own background reading and research. Just try and be objective please, and stick to the facts otherwise you undermine the very thing you are trying to promote.

PS I don't think you'll find anyone who is anti- horses not being shod. If you can't see the difference between that and current discussions then I don't suppose there is much to be said. Much like the Parelli craze, sometimes rational thinking just doesn't apply... and common sense is just not so common.


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## suestowford (27 April 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			I wonder if farriers only charge a small amount for trimming as for them it is a basic skill,
		
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I just paid £32 for a trim (a farrier not a trimmer). While I don't think it's too expensive, as I am happy to pay for the expertise, and he is a very good farrier, I was quite surprised to read of trims for £10/£15.


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## criso (27 April 2012)

You say "all these barefoot posts" but the majority of them are not started to be evangelical.  Often they are started by someone who would like to take their horse barefoot or just have and want help.

The thread then gets turned into an argument about barefoot which must very frustrating for the original poster who just wanted help.

I personally don't do Parelli (don't have any strong feelings either way) but I don't go and post on threads about it saying how well behaved my horse is without it if someone is asking for help.

Or you get threads are like this are started which to  be provocative which is fine if you want to start a debate and people want to participate but as dressagelove says it is getting a bit repetative.


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## tallyho! (27 April 2012)

Why would I tell you? I am not here to defend or support anyone except my beliefs as everyone else is doing. I can do that, so can you. 

There are clearly two camps. I fall into the barefoot camp even though I keep shod horses. This horse needs shoes. The others do not but I don't need to justify myself as to why I call them barefoot. Why does that make me less of a person than you?

Is it because the anti-barefoot camp think it should be unshod? Why? Why the hell does it matter to you? Call it bananas for all I care, and I think you'll find I do.

It's completely ridiculous how these threads descend into barefoot/unshod arguments. Embarrassing.

Rhino, I get over emotional because I am a very emotional person and I do not like everyone falling out over such petty little things and I get all defensive and judgemental. Thats not your problem though is it?


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## Goldenstar (27 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Why would I tell you? I am not here to defend or support anyone except my beliefs as everyone else is doing. I can do that, so can you. 

There are clearly two camps. I fall into the barefoot camp even though I keep shod horses. This horse needs shoes. The others do not but I don't need to justify myself as to why I call them barefoot. Why does that make me less of a person than you?

Is it because the anti-barefoot camp think it should be unshod? Why? Why the hell does it matter to you? Call it bananas for all I care, and I think you'll find I do.

It's completely ridiculous how these threads descend into barefoot/unshod. Embarrassing.
		
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It's not embarrassing it just a bit so a waste of time., but it's my time to waste !
Embarrassing is coming out the loo in the restaurant with your skirt tucked in your knickers but that's another story.


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## rhino (27 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Why does that make me less of a person than you?
		
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You are reading things that simply aren't written. You are the only one throwing personal insults about.

ETA I am not judging you. I am stating my opinions on the way your posts come across. Read back what you have written - 




tallyho! said:



			No they do not shout! Where do you get that from?

These radicals do no such thing. It's the anti-barefoot clan doing all the shouting. 

If it pisses you off, stop posting on barefoot threads? Go and start your own SHOD thread and leave the people that keep horses barefoot that you hate so bloody much alone.

call people names and slag them off and fancy pants around waving your 

Barefooters couldn't really give two tosses 

Your are all too far up your own backsides

instead you post derogatory name calling posts 

think you are clever.
		
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Do you really think that this sounds rational and objective?  And that's just one post of many


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## Lady La La (27 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Why would I tell you? I am not here to defend or support anyone except my beliefs as everyone else is doing. I can do that, so can you. 

There are clearly two camps. I fall into the barefoot camp even though I keep shod horses. This horse needs shoes. The others do not but I don't need to justify myself as to why I call them barefoot. 

Is it because the anti-barefoot camp think it should be unshod? Why? Why the hell does it matter to you? Call it bananas for all I care, and I think you'll find I do.

It's completely ridiculous how these threads descend into barefoot/unshod. Embarrassing.
		
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Just who is it that is so anti barefoot they are bashing those of us who have unshod horses? If you feel so strongly about these people you must know who they are Tallyho?

I also disagree that there are two camps, I think this thread has proved that it certainly isn't as cut and shut as you are trying to make out 



tallyho! said:



			Why does that make me less of a person than you?
		
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Oh please


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## tallyho! (27 April 2012)

Well, the way I read it lady la la is that there is two distinct camps and a few fall in between. Perhaps I should be more in between then I wouldn't get so het up.


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## Goldenstar (27 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Well, the way I read it lady la la is that there is two distinct camps and a few fall in between. Perhaps I should be more in between then I wouldn't get so het up.
		
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That's the ticket Tally Ho get in the middle and have a coffee and a cake.


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## Lady La La (27 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Perhaps I should be more in between then I wouldn't get so het up.
		
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Perhaps


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## Miss L Toe (27 April 2012)

I have found plenty of advice and good photos on here that will not be found elsewhere so easily.
I had never heard of all the barefoot organisations, never heard of low magnesium problems, never thought about low grade laminitis, or how to feed a good plain diet. Never really looked at feet, assumed farrier was doing it all for me, Cavallo boots or Easygloves, etcetera.
I have selected the information I  needed for my own circumstances.
My own questions have been answered by knowledgeable people, really I don't know why people whinge, we are all adults and can surely recognise the extremist views.
OK many people take off shoes and continue as before without problems.
Some horses need supplements and a transition period, they may need support and information.
Some people take shoes off, find horse is sore and put them back on, that is their choice, but they hardly gave it a chance, they may not have spent a lot of time on the research, just jumped in to it.
PS it is obvious to me when I look at most feet, that many would be fine without shoes, as long as they are trimmed. If they are to be worked they may need to be managed, but then, we manage our horses anyway, some more successfully than others.


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

rhino said:



			I am again appalled at the arrogance of certain posters who believe they are the authority on managing the unshod horse. I would never criticise anyone for carrying out their own background reading and research. Just try and be objective please, and stick to the facts otherwise you undermine the very thing you are trying to promote.

PS I don't think you'll find anyone who is anti- horses not being shod.
		
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I've been called much worse than appallingly arrogant before... however I personally come across I do not believe I am an expert in horses not being shod despite what others think from  my posts. No point in saying this but I just wanted to, for me.

as for your ps. that is definitely not the impression I get from numerous posters. I am aware that is my perspective and that yours is different.


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## rhino (27 April 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Some people take shoes off, find horse is sore and put them back on, that is their choice, but they hardly gave it a chance, they may not have spent a lot of time on the research, just jumped in to it.
		
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Or maybe, just maybe they *do* take their time, *do* spend time on the research and guess what? It just doesn't work for them! Or maybe they decide that their horse is in fact doing really well with shoes and they don't need to be changing anything.

The fact you don't even mention these as an option speaks volumes. Implication by omission


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## Amymay (27 April 2012)

Just try and be objective please, and stick to the facts otherwise you undermine the very thing you are trying to promote.
		
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## rhino (27 April 2012)

amandap said:



			I've been called much worse than appallingly arrogant before... however I personally come across I do not believe I am an expert in horses not being shod despite what others think from  my posts. No point in saying this but I just wanted to, for me.

as for your ps. that is definitely not the impression I get from numerous posters. I am aware that is my perspective and that yours is different.
		
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If you don't believe you are an authority on managing unshod horses then what I said doesn't apply to you. FWIW I don't consider it, as I've said before.

Maybe we just move in different circles then, because every yard I've been to (either worked at or liveried on) has had a mix of shod and unshod horses - of all ages, shapes and sizes


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## tallyho! (27 April 2012)

rhino said:



			You are reading things that simply aren't written. You are the only one throwing personal insults about.

ETA I am not judging you. I am stating my opinions on the way your posts come across. Read back what you have written - 




Do you really think that this sounds rational and objective?  And that's just one post of many
		
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That was in response towards a person I felt was Judging my beliefs. Not towards you.

I am not rational or objective much of the time I think you will find. I admit I can get ott. I should just stop caring.


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## rhino (27 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			I should just stop caring.
		
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No you should _never_ stop caring. Belief is fine, it is great, however it is not in itself knowledge and some of us will always want opinions backed up by fact. Maybe I should stop being so pedantic?


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## tallyho! (27 April 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			That's the ticket Tally Ho get in the middle and have a coffee and a cake.
		
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Thanks Goldenstar... Think I'll take your advice...


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## Lady La La (27 April 2012)

rhino said:



			. Maybe I should stop being so pedantic? 

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*Never* stop doing what you do Rhino. You restore my faith in horse owners sometimes


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

rhino said:



			Maybe we just move in different circles then, because every yard I've been to (either worked at or liveried on) has had a mix of shod and unshod horses - of all ages, shapes and sizes 

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I did say posters. However, over here in my area, if a horse comes out of a field to work or be sold it is shod. That is how it is done.

Using blanket terms like some posters covers many people and like some others I can take things as directed at me at times.  Many on this thread have done exactly the same.


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## Miss L Toe (27 April 2012)

rhino said:



			Or maybe, just maybe they *do* take their time, *do* spend time on the research and guess what? It just doesn't work for them! Or maybe they decide that their horse is in fact doing really well with shoes and they don't need to be changing anything.

The fact you don't even mention these as an option speaks volumes. Implication by omission 

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Oh dear, sorry I did not cover every eventuality, I am not here to force people to my opinion, I don't want to force anyone to do anything, I just think people should be more open minded, not take a viewpoint based soley on their own experience which must be limited unless they are looking after hundreds of horses and in several different ways:sigh:
I have discovered one farrier near me who seems to be in agreement with me, but we don't discuss it, shoeing horse and ponies is his living, and if he started telling his customers what to do, they would go elsewhere, they want to stick shoes on and be done with it.
I am the only person I know who rides a barefoot horse, it is much safer on tarmac, but if I had to take him back to tracks with very sharp coarse gravel and muddy fields, I would probably have to shoe, or boot up every time I wanted to ride the tracks.
I am very particular to shoe every six weeks otherwise [or as recommended], I worry that the ligaments will be strained, I don't have to worry about this when barefoot and self trimming.


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## rhino (27 April 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Oh dear, sorry I did not cover every eventuality, I am not an extremist :sigh:
		
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How is considering other options being extremist?


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## Goldenstar (27 April 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Oh dear, sorry I did not cover every eventuality, I am not an extremist :sigh:
		
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Coffee and cake for you too.


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## Indy (27 April 2012)

Can someone explain to me the difference between a 'pasture' trim done by a farrier and a 'performance' trim done by a bf trimmer.

My horses are all barefoot/unshod, I prefer to use the term barefoot.  They don't have a special diet or supplement and my farrier looks after their hoof care.  Now my horses work barefoot.  They don't compete but we school and hack (hacking is their main job) and they can cope with whatever work I throw at them.  In summer we can be out for 5 or 6 hours on a Sunday meandering around the countryside and have a thoroughly enjoyable time.  So the way I'm seeing it in my head is that my horses are performing (i.e. doing the job I want them to do) on a pasture trim so in the case of my horses has that pasture trim become a performance trim because it is enabling my horses to perform the job I want them to do easily.

Just confused myself but do you see what I mean?


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## Goldenstar (27 April 2012)

Indy said:



			Can someone explain to me the difference between a 'pasture' trim done by a farrier and a 'performance' trim done by a bf trimmer.

My horses are all barefoot/unshod, I prefer to use the term barefoot.  They don't have a special diet or supplement and my farrier looks after their hoof care.  Now my horses work barefoot.  They don't compete but we school and hack (hacking is their main job) and they can cope with whatever work I throw at them.  In summer we can be out for 5 or 6 hours on a Sunday meandering around the countryside and have a thoroughly enjoyable time.  So the way I'm seeing it in my head is that my horses are performing (i.e. doing the job I want them to do) on a pasture trim so in the case of my horses has that pasture trim become a performance trim because it is enabling my horses to perform the job I want them to do easily.
Just confused myself but do you see what I mean?
		
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yes I do but I don't think it clear cut , to my mind a pasture trim is what my farrier does / did to my horses when I remove there shoes and they are  on holiday .
But all trimmers don't do the same some are more interventionist than others there will be others on here who know more about this I'll be interested to see what answers you get.
Perhaps it's a marketing tag ?


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## Lady La La (27 April 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Perhaps it's a marketing tag ?
		
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Good god really?! 

You mean this could be something that barefoot trimmers might have created to make what they are doing sound more sellable? 

Well I never


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

I don't believe marketing is the driver of the barefoot movement (for want of a 'better' term.) I believe learning how to get horses as healthy and sound as possible is, along with a strong wish to challenge long accepted practices by learning from horses themselves.

Many who post pro barefoot make no money or profit in any way from posting. Doesn't sound like good marketing or even plain marketing to me but then I'm not a business person.

When are a group of like minded people considered to be marketing and when not? The marketing insult is often wheeled out in controversial subjects and it often perplexes me how non professional owners are seen to be involved in some marketing machine.


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## tallyho! (27 April 2012)

Trying to be balanced and not get het up here Indy, so bear with me.

To me, a pasture trim is when a horse has the shoes removed ready for roughing off or resting or convalescing for whatever reason.

The walls are not re-prepared for shoeing where the trimming is done to fit a new shoe. I have asked this to a farrier many years ago and this was the definition. 

The wall is left longer than perhaps you would see on a barefoot horse. Infact, I could probably take a photo of a pasture trim as two oldies at my yard are trimmed for pasture. The frogs are still high off the floor. This is how THIS farrier does it. Not every farrier in the whole country I am sure of that.

A performance trim tries to mimic that of a wild hoof. Of course not every single wild hoof is the same depending on the terrain it lives on so it is an educated guess on the part of the person trimming and then the horse develops a hoof it is happy with in time.

I think it was coined to try and differentiate it from a pasture trim and was first used by a farrier believe it or not.

What people forget is that the term barefoot was actually used by farriers in America.

I hope that explains it a bit more. It is obviously how I see it, I do not speak for everyone.


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

A performance trim is not so much about the trim in my understanding. It's about  getting a horse physically fit enough to do the job that is asked of it and be very capable and comfortable on it's feet. Ooops, hooves. I don't believe you can trim a horse to be sound barefoot though you can trim one to help and conversely to be sore. Barefoot soundness is more about getting diet, lifestyle and level of work right for that individual horse, it's not about a trim at all really. I say the last sentence with the caveat that there are ways to trim to help horses better which should be employed along with listening to the horses response to each and every trim.
Many hard working horses may not need human trimming but they do need to be hard working often it seems to me.


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## FairyLights (27 April 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			My two , in my books, aren't barefoot, they're unshod. And fed and maintained as they would be if they were ( and sometimes are) shod. Who actually invented the whole barefoot thing???  it amazes me how so many are sucked in by new fangled terminology ... Never mind, I'll just go and crawl back under my stone 

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Hear Hear!


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## Goldenstar (27 April 2012)

Lady La La said:



			Good god really?! 

You mean this could be something that barefoot trimmers might have created to make what they are doing sound more sellable? 

Well I never 

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It is my opinion based a study of one and bit horses ( one six months one six weeks) that what my trimmer does is incredibly simple however some seem to make it abit more  involved charge more etc etc  i canot judge if this performance trimming I really don't know perhaps they mean performance as in done with the horses working in mind it's not clear to me a all it's not a term my trimmer uses.
But so what if it is marketing it's a buisness after all you make an imformed choice on what service you buy based on judgement.
I am really interested in the answers this brings up.


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## Oberon (27 April 2012)

Although I reluctant to involve myself in another bunfight....

As someone who posts on barefoot threads and responds to PMs and emails sent to me, please can I explain myself in order to prevent anyone putting words in my mouth? 

I am not an expert in anything. No one is - except the horse.

It's none of my business whether someone keeps their horse shod.

But when an owner posts on here after they've had a diagnosis with a poor prognosis that I know has been helped in the past by taking the shoes off, then in that circumstance - I will make a suggestion and point the owner in the direction of appropriate information and help - then I will duck for cover 

My intention is to provide another option for the owner to explore.

When someone has a horse without shoes, and has a problem - then I will look into my previous experience and try to provide an answer for them. This is a forum and anyone should take information from a forum with caution and evaluate it themselves. 
My intention for posting is to prevent any horse from being in pain. If shoes are the best option for the horse - then shoes it is.

I have friends with shod horses - some healthy, some really not healthy.....but neither is any of my business. 
My opinion is - unless you pay my rent, you have no right to tell me what to do with my horse. That goes for everyone else too 

As for trimmers versus farriers - pick whomever in your area who provides the best service for you. In my little world it is my trimmer. If you are happy with your farrier - then excellent 

Call it barefoot, barehoof, unshod, shoeless....whatever. I call it barefoot so I can shorten it to BF and so I can be called Barefoot Taliban (which always makes me chuckle)

In a new textbook on rehabilitation of the hoof - the external structure is referred to as the hoof and the internal structure is referred to as the foot.


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## Goldenstar (27 April 2012)

amandap said:



			A performance trim is not so much about the trim in my understanding. It's about  getting a horse physically fit enough to do the job that is asked of it and be very capable and comfortable on it's feet. Ooops, hooves. I don't believe you can trim a horse to be sound barefoot though you can trim one to help and conversely to be sore. Barefoot soundness is more about getting diet, lifestyle and level of work right for that individual horse, it's not about a trim at all really. I say the last sentence with the caveat that there are ways to trim to help horses better which should be employed along with listening to the horses response to each and every trim.
Many hard working horses may not need human trimming but they do need to be hard working often it seems to me.
		
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So it's about advice  not the trim.
That's interesting you see I impression whenI looked into trimmers is that some would be much more radical than the one I chose ( taking off flairs etc) and I was not comfortable with that.


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## tallyho! (27 April 2012)

Originally Posted by Horseyscot  
My two , in my books, aren't barefoot, they're unshod. And fed and maintained as they would be if they were ( and sometimes are) shod. Who actually invented the whole barefoot thing???  it amazes me how so many are sucked in by new fangled terminology ... Never mind, I'll just go and crawl back under my stone..

It was a FARRIER that "invented" it.

It was not "invented" as such, it was just used in normal conversation and obviously struck a chord with some people and so it was just used MORE. It is not a new word by any stretch of the imagination.

I am glad though, because you don't get much on the Internet when you google unshod. You get more info if you google barefoot because worldwide, it is accepted that, this is the term to use when researching about horses who live without shoes.

Now, it's a sore point for some people like you Horseyscott  and it certainly ruffles feathers on HHO based purely on personal preference.

I think the barefoot diet should be called "natural" diet because there is no difference between it and a natural diet. Perhaps it pays more attention to certain aspects of nutrition... Perhaps.


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			So it's about advice  not the trim.
That's interesting you see I impression whenI looked into trimmers is that some would be much more radical than the one I chose ( taking off flairs etc) and I was not comfortable with that.
		
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Imo it is mostly advice but as I said there are ways to help horses by trimming the individual horse to help.
Yes there are some much more invasive trimmers and others less so. I find it difficult to explain my understanding without causing a riot of indignant posters saying I'm bashing someone or other. Sometimes/often there needs to be what some term a 'set up' trim, where for eg. compacted sole material that hasn't been able to naturally exfoliate, needs removing and the hoof rebalanced in one or all directions/planes and flare may need addressing. The better trimmers do any necessary adjustments (imo) at a pace the horse copes with well and/or offer advice on measures to keep the horse comfortable if required.
Re flare, this is addressed to greater or lesser degrees by most trimmers and actually farriers (toe rasping) but flare is very often happening due to a metabolic or dietary factor so this needs addressing along with a suitable level of management with trim for that horse. Problems such as flare are considered as something to investigate and manage as opposed to only manage.
Make any sense? lol


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## Oberon (27 April 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			So it's about advice  not the trim.
That's interesting you see I impression whenI looked into trimmers is that some would be much more radical than the one I chose ( taking off flairs etc) and I was not comfortable with that.
		
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IME the most successful farriers and trimmers adopt a dynamic, 'less is more' approach.

As in - they adapt their trim to the individual horse in front of them, rather than following a 'one size fits all' policy.

This makes trimming bloody complicated though! 

The difference between a sound and lame horse can be a mm of tissue being left on. It can be an ugly looking hoof that works well - and the owner and professional have to accept that and agree on it. 
A horse's hoof will change and adapt in response to need, so from visit to the next - he may need more heel or a shorter break over, or longer bars, or more medial/lateral wall, or nothing doing at all.......the list can be endless!

I trust my trimmer because he can tell me instantly what needs doing to each horse he trims on the yard and he can explain so in honest, non BS, terms.
Now my old boy has Cushings - I imagine he will make an adjustment based on the flaring he currently has


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## tallyho! (27 April 2012)

Lol

I just googled unshod.... And it comes up with this!!!!


http://www.unshod.org/


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## FairyLights (27 April 2012)

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Indy (27 April 2012)

I don't care whether you call it his foot, his hoof or his tootsie.  I use the term barefoot because it's what comes naturally to me.  I tried to rebel a few month ago and started using the term 'unshod' but I had to think about it when I was saying it and barefoot just naturally rolls out of my mouth.

My farrier doesn't give me advice unless I ask for it and because I don't have any problems I don't ask for it so because I don't ask for it he doesn't give it!  So, if my horses are fit for purpose and performing the job they are asked to do then my farrier is inadvertently doing a performance trim?  

The only time he's has actually stuck his oar in was 12 years ago when he said the best thing I could do for my horse was to pull his shoes off and give his feet a rest and so that's how we became barefoot!


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## criso (27 April 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			So it's about advice  not the trim.
That's interesting you see I impression whenI looked into trimmers is that some would be much more radical than the one I chose ( taking off flairs etc) and I was not comfortable with that.
		
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I'd say on the whole that's the case.  Some farriers and some trimmers are keener to trim the hoof against an ideal shape, some take more of a stand back and see approach.

I believe the right person should look at your horse and do as little or as much as is required without any preconceived ideas.

The reason I now use  the person I use who happens to be a trimmer is  

- I can bounce ideas about diet off her
- she looks at my whole horse how it moves etc I know farriers should but the 4 or 5 I tried didn't, even when I dragged the horse up and down in front of them.
- I am not a second class citizen so don't have to wait weeks if I have a problem till a farrier is on the yard to shoe a horse
- She comes from a starting point of 'this can work'; not lots of head shaking and sucking teeth and occult mutterings of tb feet before they've even seen my horse.
- she doesn't believe that horse need shoes to do roadwork without even considering the horse
- she doesn't trim frogs and soles as a matter of course

There are several farriers (some post on here) that I would be happy to use if they covered my area but they don't.


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## tallyho! (27 April 2012)

Actually, just googled "barefoot" on it's own...

Came up with barefoot contessa, barefoot doctor, barefoot coffee etc all about natural things so I guess the word is associated with 'nature'... Or natural things.

Not much about barefoot horses came up. 

So, be warned you guys... Always add 'horses' to your search to avoid coming up with unshod runners or barefoot coffee....


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## tallyho! (27 April 2012)

Indy said:



			I don't care whether you call it his foot, his hoof or his tootsie.  I use the term barefoot because it's what comes naturally to me.  I tried to rebel a few month ago and started using the term 'unshod' but I had to think about it when I was saying it and barefoot just naturally rolls out of my mouth.

My farrier doesn't give me advice unless I ask for it and because I don't have any problems I don't ask for it so because I don't ask for it he doesn't give it!  So, if my horses are fit for purpose and performing the job they are asked to do then my farrier is inadvertently doing a performance trim?  

The only time he's has actually stuck his oar in was 12 years ago when he said the best thing I could do for my horse was to pull his shoes off and give his feet a rest and so that's how we became barefoot!
		
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With you on the barefoot thing... To me it just sounds more natural 

If the horse performs on the trim = performance trim


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## Miss L Toe (27 April 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Oh dear, sorry I did not cover every eventuality, I am not here to force people to my opinion, I don't want to force anyone to do anything, I just think people should be more open minded, not take a viewpoint based soley on their own experience which must be limited unless they are looking after hundreds of horses and in several different ways:sigh:[END OF QUOTE]
I don't know how to multiple quote, but when I make a statement in one sentence , I don't expect people to edit it and add it on to another sentence/paragraph or post!
		
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## Lady La La (27 April 2012)

Oberon said:



			I will make a suggestion and point the owner in the direction of appropriate information and help - then I will duck for cover 

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You shouldn't have to 'duck for cover' Oberon, especially when you are offering up a suggestion that may help improve a problem. 



Oberon said:



			My intention for posting is to prevent any horse from being in pain. If shoes are the best option for the horse - then shoes it is.
		
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That's really refreshing to hear, and so different to the usual barefoot attitude that seems to be the norm on this forum, of no shoes being the _only_ option. Ever. 



Oberon said:



			I have friends with shod horses - some healthy, some really not healthy....
		
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As do I, and plenty of friends with unshod horses some of which are healthy, and others not so. 

I have *no* issue with people keeping their horses unshod, I have had a mixture of horses; some barefoot, some shod all round and some shod in front only. I do for them that which they require to keep their feet healthy and able to put up with the level of competition that is required of them. What bugs me is the type of person that refuses to understand that shoeing a horse is and always will be a viable option for certain circumstances.


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## Amymay (27 April 2012)

You shouldn't have to 'duck for cover' Oberon, especially when you are offering up a suggestion that may help improve a problem.
		
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Oberon is the last person who should duck for cover.  Always sensible and considered advice and opinions given by her (and a number of others).


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## tallyho! (27 April 2012)

Lady La La said:



			That's really refreshing to hear, and so different to the usual barefoot attitude that seems to be the norm on this forum, of no shoes being the _only_ option. Ever.
		
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Just wondering... Who is this barefoot person that insists that barefoot is the only option?

Lots of people say that this is what barefooters are like from memory, but I can't remember reading anyone who has ever said it is the "only" option.


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## rhino (27 April 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Oh dear, sorry I did not cover every eventuality, I am not here to force people to my opinion, I don't want to force anyone to do anything, I just think people should be more open minded, not take a viewpoint based soley on their own experience which must be limited unless they are looking after hundreds of horses and in several different ways:sigh:[END OF QUOTE]
I don't know how to multiple quote, but when I make a statement in one sentence , I don't expect people to edit it and add it on to another sentence/paragraph or post!
		
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That post makes no sense whatsoever  

To multiquote press the button next to the quote button with the " and + on it... When you have chosen all the ones you want to reply to hit 'reply' as usual.

If you are meaning the 'extremist' quote that myself and another poster quoted, *you wrote that*. It wasn't edited by me or the other poster  You clearly went back and edited your own post *after* it had been quoted by two separate people  (as you can see by the 'edit' at the bottom of the post)

You cannot also dictate who does and doesn't quote your posts, and if that is what you are suggesting I'm even more confused than usual.

Just bizarre!


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## JFTDWS (27 April 2012)

Just as an aside I can think of a number of barefoot fanatics on this forum, but I can't think of a single poster who is actively anti-having horses without shoes on.  That means that surely those who are anti-barefoot are just those who aren't convinced by the marketing and limited "science" behind the barefoot movement   In which case I'm anti-barefoot despite having no shod horses, which seems a little odd


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## rhino (27 April 2012)

JFTD said:



			Just as an aside I can think of a number of barefoot fanatics on this forum, but I can't think of a single poster who is actively anti-having horses without shoes on.  That means that surely those who are anti-barefoot are just those who aren't convinced by the marketing and limited "science" behind the barefoot movement   In which case I'm anti-barefoot despite having no shod horses, which seems a little odd 

Click to expand...

There are quite a few of us who don't own any shod beasties but also don't believe all the 'hype' and pseudo science


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## Lady La La (27 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Just wondering... Who is this barefoot person that insists that barefoot is the only option?
		
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Cptrayes.

(Well, you did ask...)



JFTD said:



			Just as an aside I can think of a number of barefoot fanatics on this forum, but I can't think of a single poster who is actively anti-having horses without shoes on.  That means that surely those who are anti-barefoot are just those who aren't convinced by the marketing and limited "science" behind the barefoot movement   In which case I'm anti-barefoot despite having no shod horses, which seems a little odd 

Click to expand...

This is exactly what I have been thinking to myself. Apparently I am anti barefoot, yet my barefooted horses say otherwise


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## JFTDWS (27 April 2012)

rhino said:



			There are quite a few of us who don't own any shod beasties but also don't believe all the 'hype' and pseudo science 

Click to expand...

You're brave.  I wrote pseudoscience and edited it out as I thought I'd be lynched


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

Lady La La said:



			Cptrayes.

(Well, you did ask...)



This is exactly what I have been thinking to myself. Apparently I am anti barefoot, yet my barefooted horses say otherwise 

Click to expand...

I have to state that naming cptrayes as saying shoeing is never an option is 100% INCORRECT. You obviously don't read or absorb her posts well enough.

I have read on numerous occasions when she has said words to the effect of... if your horse is uncomfortable and you can't get him comfy shoe!

Also I find it interesting some people feel they are not anti barefoot and spend an awful lot of time arguing against it and complaining about posters who are pro. as their 'standard' if you like. Lol

I have stated that I believe shoes harm hooves in the longer term but if owners want to shoe fine, get on with it. I might have to shoe mine one day... who knows. I doubt I would like it and would want a robust irrefutable reason clearly explained but if it was best for my horses then so be it.


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## Clava (27 April 2012)

Lady La La said:



			Cptrayes.

(Well, you did ask...)

o
		
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Actually I think she has done some very clear threads purely about when shoes are the option.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=477922

edit - cross posted with amandap


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## Amymay (27 April 2012)

amandap said:



			I have to state that naming cptrayes as saying shoeing is never an option is 100% INCORRECT. You obviously don't read or absorb her posts well enough.

I have read on numerous occasions when she has said words to the effect of... if your horse is uncomfortable and you can't get him comfy shoe!
		
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Usually, however, with the caveat that you're shoeing because you simply can't be bothered to work at having the horse barefoot.


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## Lady La La (27 April 2012)

amandap said:



			I have to state that naming cptrayes as saying shoeing is never an option is 100% INCORRECT. You obviously don't read or absorb her posts well enough.

I have read on numerous occasions when she has said words to the effect of... if your horse is uncomfortable and you can't get him comfy shoe!
		
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That may well be the case, however it's not something I've seen. I have seen her bang on and on and on at people to keep shoes off their horses, when IMO it wasn't/isn't/never will be a viable option. Swings and roundabouts, clearly. 
I can only judge on that which I have seen, and I must admit I usually try and stay away from barefoot threads as some of the attitudes involved wind me up, so I'm sure you are entirely correct.  
At least I was brave enough to answer the question though eh, Tallyho


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

Re pseudoscience... yes there is that. Give me the science that says shoeing is NOT harmful and is 'best' for horses etc. etc. Give me the science that says wedges and pads for life are required in given conditions. etc. etc. etc.
Is some of this not pseudoscience? Perhaps I don't understand the meaning of the word.


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## rhino (27 April 2012)

amymay said:



			Usually, however, with the caveat that you're shoeing because you simply can't be bothered to work at having the horse barefoot.
		
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She agreed that my old boy was a less than ideal candidate for going barefoot and I'm pretty sure she said she would do the same (i.e. keeping shod) in the same circumstances 

ETA found it, apologies for cross quoting but this is what cptrayes said, absolutely no caveats given. 



cptrayes said:



			That's a VERY good reason to shoe. I'd do the same in your place.
		
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Similarly somewhere like Rockley wouldn't consider him as a candidate, which I find comforting.


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

Lady La La said:



			That may well be the case, however it's not something I've seen. I have seen her bang on and on and on at people to keep shoes off their horses, when IMO it wasn't/isn't/never will be a viable option. Swings and roundabouts, clearly. 
I can only judge on that which I have seen, and I must admit I usually try and stay away from barefoot threads as some of the attitudes involved wind me up, so I'm sure you are entirely correct.  
At least I was brave enough to answer the question though eh, Tallyho 

Click to expand...

I am not going to get into a discussion about another poster I find that highly distasteful.

Bully for you being so brave!


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## Oberon (27 April 2012)

Lady La La said:



			You shouldn't have to 'duck for cover' Oberon, especially when you are offering up a suggestion that may help improve a problem.
		
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I duck for cover because I sometimes get some heat for "trying to sell barefoot as the answer to everything" and also because I often advise them to speak to Rockley Farm to discuss one to one with someone...and then I am accused of 'stealth marketing' 



Lady La La said:



			That's really refreshing to hear, and so different to the usual barefoot attitude that seems to be the norm on this forum, of no shoes being the _only_ option. Ever.
		
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I am not sure where I have seen this posted by barefooters on here. I am sorry you have seen such posts. Such a narrow view of 'barefoot is the only option' is unrealistic and not in the best interests of the horse.



Lady La La said:



			What bugs me is the type of person that refuses to understand that shoeing a horse is and always will be a viable option for certain circumstances.
		
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I agree. 
What bugs me is the fundamental belief held by some owners, farriers, instructors and vets that shoes are the only option and that heart bars are the magic cure for all ailments. 
It bugs me when horses are PTS because the poor owner has tried everything to get a horse sound and spent a fortune following the vet's advice...but was never given the option of taking the shoes off and letting the horse heal.
It bugs me that horses are routinely shod 365 days a year - this is not recommended in any farriery text to my knowledge. 
It bugs me when people accept a pathalogical hoof as inevitable due to the breed of the horse.

But mostly I bug myself that I can't just shut up about it all 
	
	
		
		
	


	





This is one of the more interesting discoveries I made in a farriery text...I actually had nightmares afterwards...
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=501673&highlight=curative+burning

And yet removing the shoes was never an option to this horse


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## Lady La La (27 April 2012)

amandap said:



			I am not going to get into a discussion about another poster I find that highly distasteful.

Bully for you being so brave!
		
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There doesn't need to be a discussion 

Tallyho asked me a question, to which I provided an answer. If everything on Hho was as straight forward as the above transaction, life on this forum would be a lot less complicated 




Oberon said:



			What bugs me is the fundamental belief held by some owners, farriers, instructors and vets that shoes are the only option and that heart bars are the magic cure for all ailments. 
It bugs me when horses are PTS because the poor owner has tried everything to get a horse sound and spent a fortune following the vet's advice...but was never given the option of taking the shoes off and letting the horse heal.
It bugs me that horses are routinely shod 365 days a year - this is not recommended in any farriery text to my knowledge. 
It bugs me when people accept a pathalogical hoof as inevitable due to the breed of the horse.
		
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I agree with you wholeheartedly.


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## Amymay (27 April 2012)

rhino said:



			She agreed that my old boy was a less than ideal candidate for going barefoot and I'm pretty sure she said she would do the same (i.e. keeping shod) in the same circumstances 

ETA found it, apologies for cross quoting but this is what cptrayes said, absolutely no caveats given. 

Similarly somewhere like Rockley wouldn't consider him as a candidate, which I find comforting.
		
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Ah, that's great.  And I apologise for demonising cptrayes in my post.  It is, however, my abiding memory of what she often says - unfortunately.


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

amymay said:



			Usually, however, with the caveat that you're shoeing because you simply can't be bothered to work at having the horse barefoot.
		
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If this is your interpretation that's fine but I have never read anything stating that posters can't be bothered. 

If suggestions are made that posters for various reasons cant use, do or agree with then claiming the poster(advising poster) said you can't be bothered is the readers interpretation.


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## Oberon (27 April 2012)

JFTD said:



			Just as an aside I can think of a number of barefoot fanatics on this forum, but I can't think of a single poster who is actively anti-having horses without shoes on.  That means that surely those who are anti-barefoot are just those who aren't convinced by the marketing and limited "science" behind the barefoot movement   In which case I'm anti-barefoot despite having no shod horses, which seems a little odd 

Click to expand...

I think that marks you as a dissident 

The Barefoot Taliban allows you status as a Highland, leg removable, specialist, sub-member


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## JFTDWS (27 April 2012)

Oberon said:



			The Barefoot Taliban allows you status as a Highland, leg removable, specialist, sub-member 
	
	
		
		
	


	




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haha thanks  

I should start encouraging people to chainsaw their horses' legs off and replace them with wheels on these threads now...  Would certainly make the barefoot threads less repetitive to some


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## rhino (27 April 2012)

amandap said:



			Re pseudoscience... yes there is that. Give me the science that says shoeing is NOT harmful and is 'best' for horses etc. etc. Give me the science that says wedges and pads for life are required in given conditions. etc. etc. etc.
Is some of this not pseudoscience? Perhaps I don't understand the meaning of the word.
		
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I can't. It doesn't exist  I think we all agree on the fact we need more research 

However, I do feel that certain posters find it difficult to look at what little research _is_ available objectively and as part of 'the bigger picture'

There was recently some interest in an article which described some of the underlying pathology behind 'navicular'. Interesting discussion piece, although I would rather have seen the research that I hope was behind it. To certain people that was proof that some vets get it wrong; that navicular disease/syndrome is an old fashioned way of describing caudal heel pain (I quite agree )

However they managed to gloss over/ignore where _the same article_ it repeatedly stated that it made _no difference to treatment_ and that remedial farriery with a capable farrier was still the 'gold standard'. It wasn't even mentioned in the thread as I remember.

Science doesn't work like that, you can't pick up little bits you agree with and simply ignore the rest. You don't have to agree with it, but you do have to consider it 

Unless we get some decent quality research _in equines_ it's all conjecture anyway


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## tallyho! (27 April 2012)

Lady La La said:



			Cptrayes.

(Well, you did ask...)



This is exactly what I have been thinking to myself. Apparently I am anti barefoot, yet my barefooted horses say otherwise 

Click to expand...

Cpt? I think you will find that she advocates good shoeing? Will be the first to tell anyone trying barefoot for the first time and is not going well to shoe. I have never seen a post by cpt that says barefoot is the only option


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## Lady La La (27 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Cpt? I think you will find that she advocates good shoeing? Will be the first to tell anyone trying barefoot for the first time and is not going well to shoe. I have never seen a post by cpt that says barefoot is the only option

Click to expand...

Yes, we've addressed that. Since you seem to have missed it, I'll post my reply again 



Lady La La said:



			That may well be the case, however it's not something I've seen. I have seen her bang on and on and on at people to keep shoes off their horses, when IMO it wasn't/isn't/never will be a viable option. Swings and roundabouts, clearly. 
I can only judge on that which I have seen, and I must admit I usually try and stay away from barefoot threads as some of the attitudes involved wind me up, so I'm sure you are entirely correct.  
At least I was brave enough to answer the question though eh, Tallyho 

Click to expand...


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## tallyho! (27 April 2012)

Lady La La said:



			Yes, we've addressed that. Since you seem to have missed it, I'll post my reply again 

Click to expand...

Ok, I have refreshed and read it now. Sorry, was hoovering as I am off to stay at a friends so we do can do some Xc tomorrow... Surprised it is still on considering the rain...

I will be on a barefoot horse and she will be on a shod one. We are still friends though even though she thinks I am mad


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

rhino said:



			I can't. It doesn't exist  I think we all agree on the fact we need more research 

However, I do feel that certain posters find it difficult to look at what little research _is_ available objectively and as part of 'the bigger picture'

There was recently some interest in an article which described some of the underlying pathology behind 'navicular'. Interesting discussion piece, although I would rather have seen the research that I hope was behind it. To certain people that was proof that some vets get it wrong; that navicular disease/syndrome is an old fashioned way of describing caudal heel pain (I quite agree )

However they managed to gloss over/ignore where _the same article_ it repeatedly stated that it made _no difference to treatment_ and that remedial farriery with a *capable farrier* was still the 'gold standard'. It wasn't even mentioned in the thread as I remember.

Science doesn't work like that, you can't pick up little bits you agree with and simply ignore the rest. You don't have to agree with it, but you do have to consider it 

Click to expand...

I would also agree we need lots more science but I need a good and unbiased interpreter. I really struggle to wade my way through even some summaries of research. lol

I've highlighted the words 'capable farrier' as a potential stumbling block and imo a bit of a get out of jail free card. How do we as owners know who is truly a capable farrier before treatment starts? Hindsight isn't really the best way to judge. Am I being pedantic? 



rhino said:



			Unless we get some decent quality research _in equines_ it's all conjecture anyway 

Click to expand...

I agree and also why experiences/anecdotal evidence are so valuable, at this time, to those struggling with difficult problems and conflicting advice topped off by strong gut feelings.
We would all do well to remember your point on this.


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## Lady La La (27 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			I will be on a barefoot horse and she will be on a shod one. We are still friends though
		
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No reason why you shouldn't be  
Have fun XC, hope the weather holds out for you!


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## SusieT (27 April 2012)

'What bugs me is the fundamental belief held by some owners, farriers, instructors and vets that shoes are the only option and that heart bars are the magic cure for all ailments. '
and that is the same attitude a lot of 'barefoot' people have regarding barefoot-cures practically anything, (even sound horses that have been cured by shoes..) so I think you must allow the same attitude in reverse to bug other people.


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

Forgot this...


rhino said:



			However they managed to gloss over/ignore where _the same article_ it repeatedly stated that it made _no difference to treatment_ and that remedial farriery with a capable farrier was still the 'gold standard'. It wasn't even mentioned in the thread as I remember.
		
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You mean you didn't point it out?


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## SusieT (27 April 2012)

'How do we as owners know who is truly a capable farrier before treatment starts?' same applies to trimmers


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## rhino (27 April 2012)

amandap said:



			Forgot this...

You mean you didn't point it out? 

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I didn't. I honestly didn't think it would achieve anything other than cause aggravation with certain people. And shoeing/barefoot is really not something I have a vast amount of knowledge about to be honest  I don't mind joining in a discussion like this, or if someone asks a specific question, but otherwise I just let them get on with it


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			'How do we as owners know who is truly a capable farrier before treatment starts?' same applies to trimmers
		
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That is true but I was referring to the 'gold standard' mentioned as opposed to owners choice.
The point I was trying to address is how can something so potentially arbitrary/variable/unknown be part of a gold standard coming out of a piece of research. 
Perhaps there's a list of 'gold standard' approved remedial farriers?


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## SusieT (27 April 2012)

so you would like them to list farreirs they beleive capable? Not bearing in mind that thigns change over the years? The word capable is there to point out it must be a good farrier, which an owner has to find themselves. I don't understand your problem with the whole knowing if someone is good or not regarding farriers.


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## amandap (27 April 2012)

I just wonder why they put 'capable' farrier and not just remedial farrier in a gold standard from a piece of research. Perhaps I am too pedantic then.


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## cptrayes (27 April 2012)

maisie06 said:



			I shoe him to keep him working happily he is a working animal not a pet and if he needs shoes he gets them, simples. See I KNEW this would turn into a witch hunt!!! My horses my choice. This is EXACTLY the preachy, holier than thou attitude I hate about the barefoot clan.
		
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Maisie06 you posted a crowing post about how you don't do anything special to keep your horse barefoot. Then later on you tell us that you have a second who cannot go without shoes.

Why, exactly, do you then call my post "preachy" and "holier than thou" and a "witch hunt" for pointing out that in doesn't sound so clever to me that you have one horse shod and one unshod.

You made, as far as I can tell from your post, no effort whatsoever to find out if a change in food, management, work, etc would enable this horse to work without shoes.

And yet you set this thread up precisely to scoff at people who do and then throw your toys out of the pram when mildly challenged.

You can shoe your horse if you like, of course and I did NOT criticise that decision. What I criticised is you trumpetting how clever you were to have a barefoot horse who was easy to manage, whilst also having one who cannot do it at all and with which you have made no effort to find out why.


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## cptrayes (27 April 2012)

Lady La La said:



			I would be much more inclined to listen to your views Cptrayes, if you wern't so closed minded. Yes, barefoot is great... but there *is* such a thing as a happily shod horse. There *is* such a thing as a horse that needs shoes. There *is* such a thing as a horse that requires studs.



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You obviously haven't read this thread I started then. Note the date, too.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=405124


I am gobsmacked by the incredible number of people posting who insist that they are being "made to feel guilty" by those of us who simply give advice when people ask how to manage their barefoot horses. I'm sorry chaps, but I think you need to look inside yourselves for the answer to this one, because no-one is making you, or trying to make you, feel anything at all.


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## paddy555 (27 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			'How do we as owners know who is truly a capable farrier before treatment starts?' same applies to trimmers
		
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I have no idea how you know who is a truly capable farrier but it is easy to find out who is a capable trimmer. You do what everyone should do before hiring one and that is to ask for references, follow them up and go and look at horses they have trimmed and what those horses have achieved. Then you are in a position to make your mind up if they are suitable for you. 
What matters with a barefoot trimmer is not how long it took to get their quallifications, not whether they have done an online nutrition course or anything else but what they can actually produce for you. Put plainly can they get your horse  performing barefoot to your requirements.  Producing that may involve diet advice, advice on exercise, advice on management and perhaps even trimming.


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## cptrayes (27 April 2012)

rhino said:



			However they managed to gloss over/ignore where _the same article_ it repeatedly stated that it made _no difference to treatment_ and that remedial farriery with a capable farrier was still the 'gold standard'. It wasn't even mentioned in the thread as I remember.

Science doesn't work like that, you can't pick up little bits you agree with and simply ignore the rest. You don't have to agree with it, but you do have to consider it 

Unless we get some decent quality research _in equines_ it's all conjecture anyway 

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There is no valid science whatsoever that supports the use of remedial farriery for the resolution of caudal hoof pain. None. There has been some with tiny numbers and no control groups, i.e. with no scientific validity whatsoever.

It makes no difference to treatment because the people doing the treatment only ever think of using remedial farriery. 

"gold standard"? Only by custom and practice, not though any research.

It won't last that way for much longer. Soon we will have so many horses which were recommended to be put down or retired out there working without shoes on that it simply can't be ignored how much more successful it is than remedial shoeing at resolving caudal hoof lameness.


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## cptrayes (27 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			'(even sound horses that have been cured by shoes..) so I think you must allow the same attitude in reverse to bug other people.
		
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Sound horses which were lame through caudal hoof pain are not "cured by shoes" if they are still lame with caudal hoof pain when the bar shoes/wedges/pads are removed.  Those horses tend to deteriorate over time.

Barefoot horses with caudal hoof pain who come sound, on the other hand, are cured. Those horses tend not to deteriorate over time, but to become more and more capable until they end up doing at least as much as they were doing before they ever went lame.


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## SusieT (27 April 2012)

There is but you choose to ignore it.. I've posted it before. At least there is some studies of the effect.


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## SusieT (27 April 2012)

I wasn't referring to a caudal hoof pain horse but one discussed on the forum earlier this week. You think horses that are sound in shoes aren't sound unless they march off sound when shoes are taken off and tend to then call them 'low grade laminitics' or otherwise-I see a sound horse in shoes and my view is that horse is sound.


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## cptrayes (27 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			I wasn't referring to a caudal hoof pain horse but one discussed on the forum earlier this week. You think horses that are sound in shoes aren't sound unless they march off sound when shoes are taken off and tend to then call them 'low grade laminitics' or otherwise-I see a sound horse in shoes and my view is that horse is sound.
		
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Susie if you are going to tell me what I think please do get it right 

I think no such thing. Many horses are not sound immediately the shoes have been taken off and it would be quite ridiculous of me to have said anything else. Which is why I never have.


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## Lady La La (27 April 2012)

"I am gobsmacked by the incredible number of people posting who insist that they are being "made to feel guilty" by those of us who simply give advice when people ask how to manage their barefoot horses. I'm sorry chaps, but I think you need to look inside yourselves for the answer to this one, because no-one is making you, or trying to make you, feel anything at all."

You have never at any point made me feel guilty about anything.  What would there be for me to feel guilty about


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## cptrayes (27 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			There is but you choose to ignore it.. I've posted it before. At least there is some studies of the effect.
		
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Are you saying that there is research which shows the efficacy of shoes Susie? There is none that I  know of which meets the requirements of scientific validity, which is that there must be a decent sample size and a carefully matched decent sized control group.

If you know of any please point me to it.

But if you are going to point me to a study telling me that bar shoes made ten navicular horses less lame, then I can tell you that study is scientifically completely worthless if it cannot also tell me that those horses are sounder than they would be without any shoes on at all and track the progress of both groups over time. 

So if that's the research you know about, save your fingers because it's not worth the paper it's printed on.

There is, on the other hand, a PhD paper, by a farrier no less, indicating that studs are likely to be positively harmful. Have you read that one?


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## rubyruby (27 April 2012)

better to be legless than shoeless lol, my lil barefooter non shoed or whichever you want to call her.i just call her beautiful, well she was great without shoes but then had a bout of illness and Ive been advised she will prob  now need front shoes. Thats what yer good farrier for, to give the right advice, we dont know unless we spend all our hours looking at all there different feet and diets and config...... get the idea, leave it to a good farrier and listen to advice, do what best by each horse you lucky enough to have, any one else use darren claxton or heard of him?, norfolk area, he great farrier!!


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## cptrayes (27 April 2012)

Rubyruby, I just checked your other posts and found your horse was laminitic and that is why the farrier wants to shoe her?


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## rubyruby (27 April 2012)

Yes Hi, She had a bout (her first) in Feb when her field not growing and my vet and farrier had to bang heads a bit and she was a classic case of having every tendancy suitable for getting it, ie she was holding a fat layer, not stupid but enough! She is a good doer, infact bloody looks at food and pounds up, her feet had got a little long, farrier comes every 8 but she seemed to have an extra spurt, I had some richer hay than her normal, all these together is all we can come up with for her going down, when I saw about crumbly feet this was only problem she got left with. sheis now 98pc there, farrier due next friday. he coming every 4 at mo. her laminaie were starting to seperate and chucking her hoof up too.


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## SusieT (27 April 2012)

nope, I've read papers on studs but not I think a phd by a farrier. do please send it my way-I like to read all the research I can. I've shown you the study and you promptly went silent on another thread so I'd have to go dig it out again to discuss the merits of it. It's a bit rich to comment on anyone elses scientific validity when you have none? All anybody has ever said is that we'd like to see peer reviewed scientific studies into barefoot rather than just anecdotal evidence.
The point of peer review is that it goes past a panel of experts who decide if it is scientifically valid enough to be published. Now that may be despite having flaws. So I'm afraid I'll take their opinion before yours on whether it is worth the paper its written on. It's all about adding to the evidence. 
Now, say you did a paper about barefoot is better for navicular, and followed a similar protocol, people would say oh, look at this, a paper that looks at x. Oh that's interesting, they got good results. Ok, the study has x y and z limitations, but it's got enough science and reasonable actions behind it to be published and add to the evidence about horses feet. It's just that anecdotal evidence can't be used because it is totally unverified and lets take for exmaple anecdotal evidence that the oldest person in india is 122 years. Except, they're dead so when it is scientifically verified, that is known to be incorrect or not verifiable. That's what we(well I anyway!) mean when we say evidence.


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## cptrayes (27 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			I've shown you the study and you promptly went silent on another thread so I'd have to go dig it out again to discuss the merits of it.
		
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I have no recollection of this and surely you realise by now that it is not my style to go silent because I don't like what I read?  I will always comment. I can only suggest that I missed your post, I spend a lot of time on this forum but I don't live on it. Please point me to it again.



SusieT said:



			It's a bit rich to comment on anyone elses scientific validity when you have none? All anybody has ever said is that we'd like to see peer reviewed scientific studies into barefoot rather than just anecdotal evidence.
		
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Quite. My point entirely. 

Time and again people  demand scientific evidence that barefoot works and ignore the fact that there is none at all for shoes.  I'd like to see peer reviewed scientifically valid studies that show that shoes don't adversely affect horses' hooves, and that shoes are the best solution for laminitis and caudal hoof lameness. They don't exist.


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## cptrayes (27 April 2012)

here's the HHO report of the PhD for you to start researching it SusieT.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/310041.html

I don't feel the need to read it myself, since I will never put a stud on a horse again, so I can't point you to the actual PhD paper, sorry.


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## SusieT (27 April 2012)

sorry, I think you'll find it inefficient to use studies without actually reading them.. 
I've explained above re: studies and why barefoot needs them to support some amazing claims. I'll find the study tomorrow, it will be in my past posts somewhere.


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## cptrayes (28 April 2012)

Quite the reverse actually. If you read several synopses which all relate that the article concludes that slipping is designed to reduce stress on the joints and that studs prevent slipping and that a Farrier has concluded that the use of studs, and possibly shoes, is detrimental to the horse, and you have a firm intention of never shoeing your horses, never mind studding them again ...

....then it is a completely ineffective use of a minute of your life to read the whole document.

You may not have better things to do with your time in such a situation, but I, thankfully, don't 


Please give me a short synopsis of the study you intend me to read Susie, because I can tell you already that if it covers ten or less horses and they all have shoes and there is no control group, then I won't be reading that one either.

And if it's the one about wild horses in New Zealand that has been completely debunked if you do a bit more research.  The horses were living in a completely unsuitable area  on a diet of too rich grass. If anything, it absolutely confirms what we know about how feet are damaged by an unsuitable diet.


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## Alyth (28 April 2012)

One thing that seems to be overlooked in the various studies is that each herd of wild horses is adapting to a different type of terrain.  Our Kaimanawa horses here in New Zealand live in what is a poorer part of New Zealand - but it is rich compared to desert conditions.  Quite wet for 6 months or more of the year, but not as wet as the Camargue.  So each herd adapts to its environment.  So as everyone, either pro or anti shoes is saying, every horse is different, every condition is different.  But being an evangelical barefooter !!  I have to say even though there is no proof that horse shoes are bad for horses hooves, that is what I believe.  Tradition since the middle ages demands that horses be shod.  But as I believe shoes were invented to protect the knights horses hooves when they were brought in from the surrounding fields and kept in the confines of the castle and lived in their own muck and urine -- at that time shoes were essential for the times.  As I grew up in the UK my ponies were shod for me to ride during the school holidays and barefoot and turned out through term time (while I was at boarding school).  I, and everyone I knew accepted this as the way we did things "correctly".  I have learned so much over the past 15 years - both with regard to "natural horsemanship" (which is tradition logicalised!) and the care of my ponies.  I really feel it behoves everyone, both pro and anti to have an open mind.  Each faction accuses the other of being "closed minded" and mud slinging doesn't achieve anything.  Good discussion does.  So can we please keep the discussion impersonal and objective.  Thank you everyone!!


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## amandap (28 April 2012)

Just a small point I was reminded of reading an article last night. The 'big names' who have put a lot of effort into the modern barefoot thinking are farriers, they worked as farriers for years then found that another approach worked very well and often better. They are not people with no experience of shoeing who woke up one morning and 'made up' this thinking, it's been and still is a sharing of learning, science and hands on experience and observation also trial and error. Others are scientists working to share what they have learned about their studies on hooves some very important work dating back over 40 years (Rooney). 

Science is for me a strange animal and it can be very deceptive and misleading as well as enlightening. The mantra of the huge majority of barefoot people is 'do no harm' and listening to the horse is the guide. We all know horses don't lie and don't have an agenda. Sadly, humans are much more complicated...


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## MotherOfChickens (28 April 2012)

here's the thing, I am a postdoctoral scientist and work in veterinary research although not equine anymore. I was initially put off by the 'barefoot' thing due to the language and some of the claims made by some bare footers. I was also put off by a mustang model of feet when looking at my exmoor ponies and lusitano who are expected to live in soggy Scotland. it is true that any evidence that comes out of the barefoot camp is anecdotal but what exactly are they supposed to do about that? funding studies cost money and there is precious little of that for equine research in the UK-who will pay for it? I would love to be involved so will keep buying the lottery tickets!

a lot of this anecdotal evidence, especially wrt diet does parallel what researchers have found (who have no interest in barefoot), some of it not published-in fact most of them are completely oblivious to barefoot. Some of it doesn't though and some of the more unscientific books I couldn't take seriously at all-2 in particular (one on shoeing, one on barefoot) were both very good. I did my own research.

as for online courses well-most of the trimmers I've met are interested enough and diligent enough to actually work through the course which is more than most owners are but yes, as a qualification it's not worth all that much.

I have 3 now trimmed by a local trimmer who has been around for a while and who doesn't subscribe to any one way of trimming although she is fully qualified. my big horse is sound when I was told he never would be again (although not a foot issue but he does have some interesting front leg confo which I believe the trimming 'allows' for), I don't have to worry about WLD, thrush, lost shoes, snow, slipping on roads and for really flinty tracks I have my backcountry boots which are awesome :8


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## SusieT (28 April 2012)

Well there's an open mind for you.. 'won't be reading that' and reading synopses- I think that really says it all when we talk about doing your research.. That is incredibly closed minded. Interesting. I have explained the concept of evidence to you but you don't want to grasp it, that's fine but you give a lot of 'this is definitely right' advice based on your incomplete evidence-so don't expect everyone to swallow it or to not object to it. That's pretty much all I have to say on the subject.

Here is the study- it has over 50 horses, and if you read it is maintaining a lot of the same principles barefoot treatment is trying to achieve-
Navicular bone disease : Results of treatment using egg-bar shoeing technique by L. C. BSTBLOM. equine veterinary journal, 1984. If you can't access it, let me know and I'll email you a copy.


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## ester (28 April 2012)

Back in times gone by when 'barefoot' first appeared on this forum I remember asking for peer reviewed studies. I think my opinion on the evidence (when I last looked properly), as a researcher myself, is that it was rather insufficient in all courts (shoes/no shoes/damage/benefits) to be thoroughly convincing. 

I remember a paper on collateral ligament injuries with several treatment groups, shockwave/adequan etc but all horses were shod which was probably a shame! 

Overall I came to the conclusion that the current academic research and evidence wasn't really going to assist in what decision to make for my beast, much as I would like it to!


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## amandap (28 April 2012)

The concept I cannot grasp about shoes being used with navicular is they effectively support and clamp the hoof. In my, admittedly limited understanding, navicular is caused by persistent (over years) incorrect loading of the hoof (toe first landing and shoes restricting the hoofs ability expand and contract) which puts incorrect strain on every ligament, tendon (Rooney) and doesn't allow the caudal half of the hoof to develop enough strength or comfort for the horse to use that part of the hoof to land on, which is the correct way the hoof should be loaded for appropriate strain on ligaments, tendons and energy dissipation.
A shoe effectively immobilizes the hoof so how does it allow these caudal structures to develop and become up to the job they are designed for? All I can see a shoe does is support, immobilize and possibly allow ligaments and tendons to heal but then what? Has the actual cause been addressed? I don't believe it has. In my understanding this is the main reason this diagnosis traditionally has such a poor prognosis. 

Here's an owner friendly interpretation of  barefoot thinking about navicular for any one interested. http://www.hoofrehab.com/NavicularSyndrome.htm

ps. I am assuming James Rooney's research is proper science and wonder why vets aren't considering this fundamental reasoning. For me it all fits together and makes sense to rehab hooves barefoot to build the structures through exercize so horses can move and land their hooves as they are intended. This alleviates the unhealthy strains in the ligaments, tendons and other hoof structures in the long term.


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## cptrayes (28 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			Well there's an open mind for you.. 'won't be reading that' and reading synopses- I think that really says it all when we talk about doing your research.. That is incredibly closed minded.
		
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Not at all Susie, I have a very enquiring mind, which is why, in spite of sceptism greater than yours will ever reach, I took the shoes off two lame horses seven years ago and will never put one back on a horse, just to allow it to work for me, again.




SusieT said:



			Interesting. I have explained the concept of evidence to you but you don't want to grasp it,
		
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Congratulations Susie! Today's award for patronisation goes to SusieT. Big round of applause everyone  

Thankyou so much Susie, but I did not actually need the concept of evidence explained to me. Likewise I do not need it explained to me, but you seem to, that just because something is anecdotal _*does not make it untrue*_.





SusieT said:



			that's fine but you give a lot of 'this is definitely right' advice based on your incomplete evidence-so don't expect everyone to swallow it or to not object to it. That's pretty much all I have to say on the subject.
		
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I don't expect everyone to swallow it, but while horses remain that are being shot with their shoes on because farriers and vets do not understand how likely it is that they can be cured with a barefoot rehab, I will continue to post.

And I'll bet that if you ever have a horse diagnosed with caudal hoof pain and are recommended to put it down after remedial shoeing and meds fail, that you will try a barefoot rehab first, in spite of there being no research to support it. And if you did not, no words exist which would adequately express my utter contempt.




SusieT said:



			Here is the study- it has over 50 horses, and if you read it is maintaining a lot of the same principles barefoot treatment is trying to achieve-
Navicular bone disease : Results of treatment using egg-bar shoeing technique by L. C. BSTBLOM. equine veterinary journal, 1984. If you can't access it, let me know and I'll email you a copy.
		
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Can you explain to me why I would want to read a study showing that bar shoes made 50 horses less lame (for how long???) when I know of a similar number of horses which were still lame after bar shoes and conventional medication, and did one myself, which came sound with a barefoot rehab?


....


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## cptrayes (28 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			I've explained above re: studies and why barefoot needs them to support some amazing claims.
		
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Barefoot does not need them. 

People who believe in barefoot rehabs are already convinced. 

It is sceptics like you who need them, and vets so that they can recommned it to their clients with some back-up in case they get sued.

So, since it is you who needs the scientific evidence, why don't you get it done?

I am proud of the fact that I know of horses who would by now have been shot or pensioned off who have been restored to full work because people on this forum have encouraged owners to go for a barefoot rehab for their horses, unsupported by scientific evidence.

Horses are alive. Owners have been saved heartache. Well done barefoot, I say.  

You can knock it til you are blue in the face Susie, but you won't stop me trying to save other horses and owners from an unnecessary outcome.


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## Oberon (28 April 2012)

Aye - but things will never move forward until there is proper research out there.

It worries me why we don't have it.

Even Dr Bowker's work hasn't been 'properly' validated - that really baffles me.

Going BF rather than using shoes for a healthy horse is always going to be personal choice. But for pathalogical horses....to say 'modern' BF has been around for over a decade now, why hasn't anything been done to validate the use of it as a treatment?


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## cptrayes (28 April 2012)

Because the easiest way to get  money for research is if there is an end product which can be sold at a profit to recoup the costs. Barefoot is a profit free zone for the drug companies     It's not in the interest of any pharmaceutical company and it is completely against the interests of the big Vet clinics, which all make a whacking great amount of their money from diagnosing and treating horses with hoof lameness.

When I told my old vet that I could cure a navicular horse by taking off the shoes his immediate reaction was not "I don't believe you" it was "You'll put me out of business".


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## ester (28 April 2012)

but, despite that there is a lot of research, particularly at the PhD level which is what I call 'research or research sake' in fact it is often encouraged and my PhD has been criticised for being too practical in its goals (I am funded by the relevant industry, they have interest in the problem and would have liked to find a solution, but plenty are funded by research councils or university funds with no interest in having an end product). Maybe it is the hurdle of getting work that is publishable that is problematic, given that pathological horses are likely all a bit inherently different.


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## SusieT (28 April 2012)

another open minded post there cptrayes, basically we should believe you because you say so. There are no drugs able to be sold as a result of putting shoes on navicular horses either...


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## cptrayes (28 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			another open minded post there cptrayes, basically we should believe you because you say so. .
		
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Susie I don't expect you to believe anything.  You are a grown adult, though sometimes your posts make that difficult to credit, and you can believe exactly what you want to believe.

But while I continue to get PMs saying things like this, delivered 5 minutes ago from someone whose vet and farrier told her the horse would never work again,  I will continue to post what I post whether you like it or not.




			I'm so glad that I read yours and others posts on barefoot as I honestly think it has saved my horse's life.
		
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## cptrayes (28 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			There are no drugs able to be sold as a result of putting shoes on navicular horses either...
		
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Are you completely unaware of just how much profit most farriers make from  putting bar shoes, wedges and fillers on a horse?


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## MerrySherryRider (28 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			And if it's the one about wild horses in New Zealand that has been completely debunked if you do a bit more research.  The horses were living in a completely unsuitable area  on a diet of too rich grass. If anything, it absolutely confirms what we know about how feet are damaged by an unsuitable diet.
		
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Or perhaps the study just had findings that showed barefoot horses were not perfect and suffered from hoof problems like navicular too ?

 Far from these horses living in 'an unsuitable area', they were living in their own environment. Just as the mustangs live in an environment that bears no comparision to our domestic horses. 

You can't cherry pick a perfect environment to further your propaganda.

 Observations of groups of feral horses living in different climates and terrain shows that in fact there is no perfect hoof, the horse adapts to survive quite differently.

Have the Barefoot devotees moved away from the mustang role model yet or are they still trying to trim with this idea that the unshod hoof should replicate a feral horse living in harsh rocky terrain and travelling a 100 miles between forage and water ?
As most UK horses sqelch their way from a soggy field to a stable yard for a tootle around a menage, have a bucket of food and amble back to the paddock, I have never seen the relevence with mustangs for our domestic horses.


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## cptrayes (28 April 2012)

horserider said:



			You can't cherry pick a perfect environment to further your propaganda.
		
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But I* can*. This is what mineral balancing, keeping horses off grass in daytime, carefully matching exercise to foot growth, etc is all about. We are attempting, and most often succeeding, in cherry picking a perfect environment for our horses to work barefoot.

The study clearly shows, for me, why shoes were used in the first place. Because if you want an army full of horses all to be ready to work at the same time in less than perfect conditions then shoes are a necessity.

Horses are now leisure animals. The reasons for mass shoeing have disappeared. 

I don't follow any "model" so I can't help with your other questions. I only subscribe to what keeps barefoot horses sound and in hard work in the environment where they live.


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## cptrayes (28 April 2012)

horserider said:



			Or perhaps the study just had findings that showed barefoot horses were not perfect and suffered from hoof problems like navicular too ?
		
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Correct me if I am wrong but if the study showed that the horses had "navicular" you mean that they had changes to the navicular bone. It is now widely known that  a very substantial proportion of horses (I have been told 50%) will have navicular changes on xray, but very few of those will be lame. Moreover, if you MRI the ones that are lame then it is overwhelmingly the case that soft tissue damage will be found. Then also the case that if you fix the soft tissue damage the horse comes sound in spite of the fact that the changes to the navicular bone remain.

Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to come to the logical conclusion that changes to the navicular bone are simply normal in horses and that they are not normally related to the lameness or otherwise of the horse.

Which would make it puzzling why one of the top veterinary hospitals told a friend of mine last year that, on the strength of the changes to the navicular bones, it was unlikely the horse would ever work again. The horse concerned was sound after four weeks at a rehab unit and remains sound. As an interesting aside, it was also barefoot before the lameness, but had insufficient movement over a wet winter and his feet had been allowed to grow to a point where his frogs were no longer in contact with the floor. In other words, he'd grown himself a shoe.


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## MerrySherryRider (28 April 2012)

You miss my point, you say the New Zealand research had been completely debunked. I didn't know that it had. If the Barefoot people wish to harp on about mustangs having the hooves that are ideal, it has to taken into account that horses living successfully adapt to their environment, as feral herds in different climates have quite differently shaped feet. 
 Diet, forage,the availability and type, terrain and climate are all equally relevant in research into understanding how to maintain soundness.


Saying barefoot horses do not get navicular syndrome is untrue. 

Surely, observing feral horses living in the uk would be far more relevant than trying to mimic mustangs ?
But perhaps the Welsh pony roll isn't quite so exotic ?


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## Oberon (28 April 2012)

horserider said:



			Have the Barefoot devotees moved away from the mustang role model yet or are they still trying to trim with this idea that the unshod hoof should replicate a feral horse living in harsh rocky terrain and travelling a 100 miles between forage and water ?
As most UK horses sqelch their way from a soggy field to a stable yard for a tootle around a menage, have a bucket of food and amble back to the paddock, I have never seen the relevence with mustangs for our domestic horses.
		
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The AANHCP still (I believe) favour the 'wild hoof trim'.

While it is interesting to take in information such as short toe, low heel and well connected wall, it is not correct (IMO) to blindly follow any model. Each horse should be treated as an individual.

The Hampson/Pollitt Brumby study clearly showed there were differences between 'hard ground' horses and 'soft ground' horses. 

The hoof is dynamic. So should the trim be.


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## Oberon (28 April 2012)

horserider said:



			But perhaps the Welsh pony roll isn't quite so exotic ?
		
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I imagine it would be more muddy 

'Mustang roll' is a term coined by Jaime Jackson - so that would be the AANHCP again.

They don't represent the entirety of trimming practice 

This is some observations from a lady on Dartmoor ponies

http://www.tribeequus.com/dartmoor.html

And other feral hoof forms

http://www.tribeequus.com/easternusa.html
http://www.tribeequus.com/burros.html
http://www.tribeequus.com/plainshorses.html

Not scientific in any way - but I found the different hooves interesting.


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## paddy555 (28 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			When I told my old vet that I could cure a navicular horse by taking off the shoes his immediate reaction was not "I don't believe you" it was "You'll put me out of business".
		
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  years ago I used to buy my rasps from a farrier friend (before the days of online shopping) He knew my horses did OK unshod and his only comment was "don't tell my client's you'll put me out of business"


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## MerrySherryRider (28 April 2012)

Thanks for the links Oberon, just off to ride now but will have a read later. 
These flipping unshod, spring grass eating horses need to work.


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## cptrayes (28 April 2012)

horserider said:



			If the Barefoot people wish to harp on about mustangs having the hooves that are ideal,
		
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I have never seen anyone on this forum harp on about that.



horserider said:



			Diet, forage,the availability and type, terrain and climate are all equally relevant in research into understanding how to maintain soundness.
		
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This, on the other hand, we all say until we are blue in the face.



horserider said:



			Saying barefoot horses do not get navicular syndrome is untrue.
		
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I do not understand why you are telling me this when I have just told you about a barefoot horse with navicular. They do get it. My experience is that the ones who get it are the ones who have grown a shoe and taken their frog out of contact with the floor.



horserider said:



			Surely, observing feral horses living in the uk would be far more relevant than trying to mimic mustangs ?
		
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I have no recollection of anyone on this forum suggesting that we should be trying to mimic mustangs.  And most certainly not me because I do not follow a "model".  The furthest I would go is to use the term "mustang roll" as a neat way to describe rounding off the sharp edge of a horse's hoof in order to prevent it from chipping. I'm really baffled why you are trying to have this particular discussion with me because it is nothing I have ever posted about. If you noticed, I only mentioned the NZ research to say that it didn't tell us anything very useful.


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## Tinypony (28 April 2012)

Good thread, very amusing to see someone arguing against things that nobody says in the first place.


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## amandap (28 April 2012)

Oberon said:



			Aye - but things will never move forward until there is proper research out there.

It worries me why we don't have it.

Even Dr Bowker's work hasn't been 'properly' validated - that really baffles me.

Going BF rather than using shoes for a healthy horse is always going to be personal choice. But for pathalogical horses....to say 'modern' BF has been around for over a decade now, why hasn't anything been done to validate the use of it as a treatment?
		
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The glaring point for me is that there isn't any research that validates the treatments used every day by vets and farriers but many steadfastly remove to budge.  Reading a blog yesterday a vet refuses to come out and see a horse that is now sound barefoot until the owner puts shoes on it! 
It would be shameful in the extreme if ego and stubboness were playing a part rather than reason and common sense. 

A model is only a guide to signs of health and normality. In my understanding the feral horse model allows for different adaptions in hooves depending on their environment. Every horse need a healthy frog, thick sole and thick wall of even thickness all the way round. Why people get hung up on a desert hoof being the aim is something I don't understand. The aim is a healthy strong hoof whatever it's environment. Most of the modern bf trims are almost identical from where I am sitting, the days of arguing about one trim over another are well over.

Imo feral horses that have unhealthy hooves should throw us the big question that if that is a 'norm' we want to embrace, then we have to ask about the ethics of riding and using an animal who is unable to be healthy. 
Many have already demonstrated that healthy functioning bare hooves can be nurtured even in difficult domestic environments why would we want to start looking for reasons to justify having unhealthy hooves? 
I just do not get it myself.


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## amandap (28 April 2012)

Anyway... who actually needs research? Horses all over the world are saying what works to those who are willing and open minded enough to listen. Just get on line and read if you cant travel and see... 

This is what really bugs me about people demanding scientific research... they are happy to carry on doing something made up by humans used for centuries with no scientific research but they need scientific proof to believe what horses are saying and demonstrating. Reminds me of the general attitude of humans towards animals... 

Medical models are by definition highly interventionist I prefer an holistic model myself.


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## Moomin1 (28 April 2012)

amandap said:



			Anyway... who actually needs research? Horses all over the world are saying what works to those who are willing and open minded enough to listen. Just get on line and read if you cant travel and see... 

This is what really bugs me about people demanding scientific research... they are happy to carry on doing something made up by humans used for centuries with no scientific research but they need scientific proof to believe what horses are saying and demonstrating. Reminds me of the general attitude of humans towards animals... 

Medical models are by definition highly interventionist I prefer an holistic model myself.
		
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Holistic approaches don't cure cancer.  Thank god we have got scientists out there saving lives every day.


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## cptrayes (28 April 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Holistic approaches don't cure cancer.  Thank god we have got scientists out there saving lives every day.
		
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No Moomin, they don't cure cancer, they stop it happening in the first place. 

It is well demonstrated that a wholistic approach to life, with a good diet, good exercise, getting the right amount of sun for vitamin D production, living in a clean place, not smoking, taking a 75mg dose of aspirin a day,  etc etc are the best cancer preventative there is.


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## Moomin1 (28 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			No Moomin, they don't cure cancer, they stop it happening in the first place. 

It is well demonstrated that a wholistic approach to life, with a good diet, good exercise, getting the right amount of sun for vitamin D production, living in a clean place, not smoking, taking a 75mg dose of aspirin a day,  etc etc are the best cancer preventative there is.
		
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There is also a good deal of genetic influence in some cancers too.  So would holistic medicine cure those people too?

It would be interesting to know how many of the holistic 'supporters' would turn down conventional medicine if they were diagnosed with a serious and life threatening illness.  Just a thought!

Don't get me wrong - if people want to believe in that stuff fine - it's up to them.


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## Holly Hocks (28 April 2012)

Cptrayes didn't say that holistic medicine cured cancer.  She said that a holistic APPROACH to life may help to  prevent cancer.

Don't you agree that by not smoking you reduce the risk of lung cancer, or that not being obese can help to prevent some cancers, and by using high factor suncream you can reduce the risk of skin cancer?

Of course I agree that genetics play a part, but I do believe that the risk can be reduced by leading a healthy life.


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## amandap (28 April 2012)

Moomin1, of course a medical model has it's place but I was referring to horses hooves and the common pathologies that we treat by cutting, carving and applying mechanical devices to in isolation to the rest of the horse. Hooves are connected to horses (unless you follow the 'trolley model' descibed/invented -earlier in this thread lol)  and the body has an effect on them just as they affect  and reflect (imo) the body. 
An holistic model can incorporate medical interventions when required.

ps. Yes genetics also play a part but as has been said prevention is what an holistic model aims for. 
I know very little about the subject but there is some interesting stuff in epigenetics... it is possible (keeping open minded here) that cells and genes can be altered in the body through chemical and other influences.

pps. The point of an holistic model is it looks at the whole body and environment, genetics etc. not just one area/problem in isolation. It isn't some new age thing.


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## Moomin1 (28 April 2012)

I'm also intrigued as to how taking 75mg of aspirin daily could be classed as holistic..

Nevertheless, I agree fully that living as healthy a lifestyle as possible will go a long way to preventing cancer.  Cptrayes said living a holistic lifestyle STOPS cancer from happening - not quite the same.

Looking at other illnesses such as malaria, meningitis etc etc - I defy anyone to say that a holistic approach will be of much use in those circumstances.


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## ester (28 April 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			I'm also intrigued as to how taking 75mg of aspirin daily could be classed as holistic..
		
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I suppose it is easier then going round chewing willow


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## amandap (28 April 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Looking at other illnesses such as malaria, meningitis etc etc - I defy anyone to say that a holistic approach will be of much use in those circumstances.
		
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Malaria needs control of the mosquito, the sick person needs caring for. You wouldn't just give the drugs in any of these instances would you?
An holistic approach is used very often within medicine.  Holisitic just means considering the whole... Somehow when it comes to horses hooves we don't do this.


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## Clava (28 April 2012)

wiki definition...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holistic_health


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## amandap (28 April 2012)

The wiki definition of the medical model needs updating so here's one from the merck. http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/medical+model


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## rhino (28 April 2012)

Clava said:



			wiki definition...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holistic_health

Click to expand...

Which clearly states there are two definitions, one relating to alternative medicine only. You can find an internet definition to suit most purposes


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## Moomin1 (28 April 2012)

Clava said:



			wiki definition...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holistic_health

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That just about sums it up perfectly!  Not one of those holistic approaches are going to be of much use to someone who is in desperate need of a cure for a serious illness.

There are plenty of illnesses out there that are entirely unavoidable and out of our control to prevent despite the 'holistic' approach to life.  That's where conventional medicine and science is vitally important.  

With regard using a holistic approach in conjunction with conventional medicine - it's an individual choice - personally I see no benefit in partaking in aromatherapy or acupunture etc etc to my health.


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## amandap (28 April 2012)

rhino said:



			Which clearly states there are two definitions, one relating to alternative medicine only. You can find an internet definition to suit most purposes 

Click to expand...

I will clarify that I am talking about the (accepted )  first definition. Considering the whole.


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## Oberon (28 April 2012)

Just to clarify - the Barefoot Taliban doesn't believe barefoot can cure cancer


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## amandap (28 April 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			With regard using a holistic approach in conjunction with conventional medicine - it's an individual choice - personally I see no benefit in partaking in aromatherapy or acupunture etc etc to my health.
		
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It isn't a case of one versus the other. If you choose to use the second definition then I cannot possibly get you to understand the point I am making.

Sadly, I have come across this 'corrupted' understanding of holistic before and the hostility that comes with it. Life used to be so simple.


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## Clava (28 April 2012)

rhino said:



			Which clearly states there are two definitions, one relating to alternative medicine only. You can find an internet definition to suit most purposes 

Click to expand...

Totally agree which is why people need to clarify what they are refering to when having a debate


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## tallyho! (28 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			People who believe in barefoot rehabs are already convinced. 

Horses are alive. Owners have been saved heartache. Well done barefoot, I say.
		
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If my rehab case is an anecdote, then the anecdote is proof enough for me that shoes are not the be all and end all of hoof care. Good to have options and vets are now coming around in my area. I was lucky to to have their support


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## amandap (28 April 2012)

Oberon said:



			Just to clarify - the Barefoot Taliban doesn't believe barefoot can cure cancer 
	
	
		
		
	


	




Click to expand...








I'm beginning to wish I hadn't mentioned the 'h' word now.

The 'trolley model' is beginning to sound appealing to me now.


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## tallyho! (28 April 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			That just about sums it up perfectly!  Not one of those holistic approaches are going to be of much use to someone who is in desperate need of a cure for a serious illness.

There are plenty of illnesses out there that are entirely unavoidable and out of our control to prevent despite the 'holistic' approach to life.  That's where conventional medicine and science is vitally important.  

With regard using a holistic approach in conjunction with conventional medicine - it's an individual choice - personally I see no benefit in partaking in aromatherapy or acupunture etc etc to my health.
		
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How is this relevant to hooves?


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## SusieT (28 April 2012)

'Just to clarify - the Barefoot Taliban doesn't believe barefoot can cure cancer ' that's a relief! (surprising to some )


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## Alyth (28 April 2012)

LOL  and getting back to hooves....!!!!  It is my belief that the mustang/brumby hoof was used as a model to demonstrate that horses need movement (over a variety of terrain/surfaces) and poor quality grazing to be able to self trim successfully.   This is why the track system was developed.  In most cases today horses are either kept confined to a yard or stable and allowed minimal grazing, being fed hay but with very little movment or over here, strip grazed to limit the grass intake and again very little movmement.  How many horses kept in these sorts of conditions get ridden for 20 or so miles every day, rain, shine, hail or snow?  My guess would be very few!!


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## tallyho! (29 April 2012)

Alyth said:



			LOL  and getting back to hooves....!!!!  It is my belief that the mustang/brumby hoof was used as a model to demonstrate that horses need movement (over a variety of terrain/surfaces) and poor quality grazing to be able to self trim successfully.   This is why the track system was developed.  In most cases today horses are either kept confined to a yard or stable and allowed minimal grazing, being fed hay but with very little movment or over here, strip grazed to limit the grass intake and again very little movmement.  How many horses kept in these sorts of conditions get ridden for 20 or so miles every day, rain, shine, hail or snow?  My guess would be very few!!
		
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Does this mean we need to adapt hoof care to individual cases as Oberons' posting of the links from tribeequus.com.

Or, does this mean we need to change the way we keep the domestic cousins of the wild horse? Provide the varied terrain of feral horses.

What I am learning is that hooves are as adaptable as they are destructible whether mankind intervened or not. The question is, are WE as adaptable to hoof care - not farriers and vets, but owners who demand high level performing feet? Without owners, there would be no industry, farriers and trimmers would not exist if horses were seen as a food source for example. I am not talking here within this little argument, but the whole world. Could owners take on a paradigm shift in equine management which included hooves as a focus for health and wellbeing rather than the rosettes & trophies? I have picked on the performing world as that is what drives trends and is the biggest market in wealthy countries.

Demand for performance will drive change (as horses and ponies keep on foundering and going lame in shoes or not) and that may not be for many years yet, but, research is going on all of the time, small pockets of research but nevertheless, research. There may not be a product at the end of it, but there could be for certain situations.... You only have to do a bit of net surfing to find all of these pocket studies, mostly american (few English folk are sticking their necks out), but we only have what we have. Technologies like MRI etc will get more accessible which will eventually help.

As for holistic, lets not get bogged down in semantics again, there does need to be a holistic/united/whole approach in this country so that farriers and vets have the confidence to treat horses, insurers know where they stand and owners are confident they are giving the best care possible. The authorities need to be more responsive to change in a positive way, at the moment everything is seen as a threat to tradition, not as a development.


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## amandap (29 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			at the moment everything is seen as a threat to tradition, not as a development.
		
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This is so very sadly true it seems to me.


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## tallyho! (29 April 2012)

How will it ever improve?


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## amandap (29 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			How will it ever improve?
		
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I think it is improving but when people start to question more is an obvious way to me.


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## MerrySherryRider (29 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I have never seen anyone on this forum harp on about that.



This, on the other hand, we all say until we are blue in the face.



I do not understand why you are telling me this when I have just told you about a barefoot horse with navicular. They do get it. My experience is that the ones who get it are the ones who have grown a shoe and taken their frog out of contact with the floor.



I have no recollection of anyone on this forum suggesting that we should be trying to mimic mustangs.  And most certainly not me because I do not follow a "model".  The furthest I would go is to use the term "mustang roll" as a neat way to describe rounding off the sharp edge of a horse's hoof in order to prevent it from chipping. I'm really baffled why you are trying to have this particular discussion with me because it is nothing I have ever posted about. If you noticed, I only mentioned the NZ research to say that it didn't tell us anything very useful.
		
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This forum reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm. History being rewritten and trusting on people's memories being very short as opinions from the past are 'tweaked' and diluted.
This is one of the issues I have with the Barefoot extremists, they bang on about their way is the only way and then when challenged claim, 'we never said that.'

Actually, you said the New Zealand research had been debunked. That is quite different from 'it didn't tell us any thing useful.


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## tallyho! (29 April 2012)

horserider said:



			This forum reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm. History being rewritten and trusting on people's memories being very short as opinions from the past are 'tweaked' and diluted.
This is one of the issues I have with the Barefoot extremists, they bang on about their way is the only way and then when challenged claim, 'we never said that.'

Actually, you said the New Zealand research had been debunked. That is quite different from 'it didn't tell us any thing useful.
		
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You remind me of an old broken record


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## MerrySherryRider (29 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			You remind me of an old broken record 

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LOL ! Yes, I'm boring myself now. I'm off to have a coffee and a rollie.


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## russianhorse (29 April 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			So cptrayes, ten years ago, we're your horses unshod or barefoot????
		
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Just thought I'd jump in (not read all the thread, sorry!  ) to say that my lad has been barefoot since 2000 

But I've always used a farrier to trim, and have never based my horses diet around him being barefoot.  I also knew a girl who worked at Liphook (who I met years after my horse went there, but it turned out she had nursed him - sorry irrelevant info here lol!) who had NEVER put shoes on her horses, except when she went to sell them but only then just to prove they were good for the farrier.  She also never based anything on whether the horse was barefoot or not (and used this barefoot term back then  ) but if the horses hooves weren't great, would just use hoof hardener.

No real point to my post, except this Barefoot "newage" thingy is getting a little obsessive really.  As far as I can see, it either works for your horse or it doesn't but its not a new thing


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## FairyLights (29 April 2012)

i'd like mine to be barefoot but theres too much tarmac here and i do like to trot on roads and ride for hours. And dont tell me the feet will "condition" and grow quicker i response, not to the extent they need to they dont ;the hoof just wears down too quickly and therefore needs a shoe.


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## tallyho! (29 April 2012)

russianhorse said:



			Just thought I'd jump in (not read all the thread, sorry!  ) to say that my lad has been barefoot since 2000 

But I've always used a farrier to trim, and have never based my horses diet around him being barefoot.  I also knew a girl who worked at Liphook (who I met years after my horse went there, but it turned out she had nursed him - sorry irrelevant info here lol!) who had NEVER put shoes on her horses, except when she went to sell them but only then just to prove they were good for the farrier.  She also never based anything on whether the horse was barefoot or not (and used this barefoot term back then  ) but if the horses hooves weren't great, would just use hoof hardener.

No real point to my post, except this Barefoot "newage" thingy is getting a little obsessive really.  As far as I can see, it either works for your horse or it doesn't but its not a new thing 

Click to expand...

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......................................


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## russianhorse (29 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......................................

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Here - have a cup of latte from my new coffee machine to wake you up


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## tallyho! (29 April 2012)

Horsesforever1 said:



			i'd like mine to be barefoot but theres too much tarmac here and i do like to trot on roads and ride for hours. And dont tell me the feet will "condition" and grow quicker i response, not to the extent they need to they dont ;the hoof just wears down too quickly and therefore needs a shoe.
		
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Ok, I wont


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## Clava (29 April 2012)

Horsesforever1 said:



			i'd like mine to be barefoot but theres too much tarmac here and i do like to trot on roads and ride for hours. And dont tell me the feet will "condition" and grow quicker i response, not to the extent they need to they dont ;the hoof just wears down too quickly and therefore needs a shoe.
		
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Well, for some people they do grow fast enough to keep up with work load if given a chance for the growth rate to adapt. Personally I  hate trotting on roads  with shoes on but will happily trot for miles barefoot. There are 6 barefooters at my yard, we all do a lot of roadwork and wearing down has never been an issue.


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## BeesKnees (29 April 2012)

Horsesforever1 said:



			i'd like mine to be barefoot but theres too much tarmac here and i do like to trot on roads and ride for hours. And dont tell me the feet will "condition" and grow quicker i response, not to the extent they need to they dont ;the hoof just wears down too quickly and therefore needs a shoe.
		
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Why not Horsesforever? Why wouldn't you want people who are doing exactly what you say is impossible to tell you about their experience? I don't think they're lying 

Re. Horseforever assertion above, Is there much research about the amount of impact and concussion that is  transmitted through a horses legs by having metal shoes on? Just wondering as it seems so illogical that humans choose soft shock absorbing footwear to run on roads and yet think some metal would be a really good idea for horses!?


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## amandap (29 April 2012)

I would just want to know why my horse couldn't do work barefoot. This is where the differences can come in. If a horse is very short of a mineral (for eg.) in your grass and hay isn't it a good thing to know about? If your horse is especially sensitive to grass or sugars in it and some hay, wouldn't you want to  know so you can adjust diet to ward off IR in the future for eg?

Hooves reflect the horses body system so for me they are like windows into a horses health/physiology. I could chop them off and use a trolley (tongue in cheek reference to the trolley mentioned earlier in the thread) but the horse is still the same.


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## cptrayes (29 April 2012)

Horsesforever1 said:



			i'd like mine to be barefoot but theres too much tarmac here and i do like to trot on roads and ride for hours. And dont tell me the feet will "condition" and grow quicker i response, not to the extent they need to they dont ;the hoof just wears down too quickly and therefore needs a shoe.
		
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OK I won't either.

But I will ask you if the horse actually went sore?

Or if the horse was sound and you are just unaware how short barefoot feet are supposed to be?  I once shod one for that reason, because unfortunately my farrier didn't know either.

Or if you never actually tried it in the first place because you "know" that you do too much roadwork for the horse to grow enough foot?  

And if you did try it, how long you gave the horse to condition itself to the amount of roadwork you wanted it to do?  I have one who takes a couple of months to respond to his work wear and produce foot more quickly, and two who grow it back in a day.


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## cptrayes (29 April 2012)

horserider said:



			This is one of the issues I have with the Barefoot extremists, they bang on about their way is the only way and then when challenged claim, 'we never said that.'
		
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Horserider it is very easy for you to prove who said what on this forum. Every word anyone has ever written on it has been saved and there is an advanced search function. 

It is not my responsibility to prove that I did not say what you say I said. It is for you to prove that I did.


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## Oberon (29 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Does this mean we need to adapt hoof care to individual cases as Oberons' posting of the links from tribeequus.com.

Or, does this mean we need to change the way we keep the domestic cousins of the wild horse? Provide the varied terrain of feral horses.
		
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I am finding that the more I learn, the more questions I have.

I reckon we still have a long way to go to fully understand what keeps horses, and hooves truly healthy.

No one has all the answers. But that doesn't mean we should stop asking questions.


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## Horseyscot (29 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Originally Posted by Horseyscot  
My two , in my books, aren't barefoot, they're unshod. And fed and maintained as they would be if they were ( and sometimes are) shod. Who actually invented the whole barefoot thing???  it amazes me how so many are sucked in by new fangled terminology ... Never mind, I'll just go and crawl back under my stone..

It was a FARRIER that "invented" it.

It was not "invented" as such, it was just used in normal conversation and obviously struck a chord with some people and so it was just used MORE. It is not a new word by any stretch of the imagination.

I am glad though, because you don't get much on the Internet when you google unshod. You get more info if you google barefoot because worldwide, it is accepted that, this is the term to use when researching about horses who live without shoes.

Now, it's a sore point for some people like you Horseyscott  and it certainly ruffles feathers on HHO based purely on personal preference.

I think the barefoot diet should be called "natural" diet because there is no difference between it and a natural diet. Perhaps it pays more attention to certain aspects of nutrition... Perhaps.
		
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I probably don't really put myself over very well, and reading some other replies others say what I'm trying to say much better than me lol! 

I actually dont care what people call 'it' either. I appreciate some horses wear shoes others don't  for a variety of reasons. As I have said neither of my two have shoes on, I don't mind saying they're barefoot, but I do say unshod. I suppose this is where I get confused, it's maybe more who does the trimming that mixes it up for me. My farrier trims mine, I trust him after all he's trained for four years to do his job ( and more importantly he's does a good job). But all of a sudden, barefoot trimmers have popped up, and as has been mentioned it doesn't take much to take on this 'qualification ' I'm not saying all barefoot trimmers know nothing, and this post proves how many of you think highly of the trimmers you use. I have taken on your points about nutrition, but surely all horse owners want to feed and maintain their horses well no matter what is or isn't on their feet?


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## Oberon (29 April 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			I have taken on your points about nutrition, but surely all horse owners want to feed and maintain their horses well no matter what is or isn't on their feet? 

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They do. But unfortunately, what the horse considers good feed and what most owners (and I have been there myself) and some feed companies consider good feed can have a yawning gap between them.

There are many horses out there who suffer with crumbling, poor quality hooves, sensitivity, excessive wear, weak laminae attachment, behavioural problems, ulcers, poor coat condition etc etc because of the diet.

But the owner will swear blind the diet isn't the problem 

No one wants to listen to the hippys


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## amandap (29 April 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			I have taken on your points about nutrition, but surely all horse owners want to feed and maintain their horses well no matter what is or isn't on their feet? 

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Absolutely they do.  Shoes have a numbing effect as well as lifting the hoof off the ground, so often any sensitivity is not noticed in a shod horse.


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## tallyho! (29 April 2012)

Horseyscot said:



			I probably don't really put myself over very well, and reading some other replies others say what I'm trying to say much better than me lol! 
 But all of a sudden, barefoot trimmers have popped up, and as has been mentioned it doesn't take much to take on this 'qualification ' I'm not saying all barefoot trimmers know nothing, and this post proves how many of you think highly of the trimmers you use.
		
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You know, I have to tell you something... there are not that many farriers like yours in this country. The quality varies. I have a question though... why? Why if the WCF are such a respected body of authority on foot care, is the quality of farriery so variable?

So, when you find the answer to this, apply the same logic to everything.

Where there is a gap in the market, something will "pop" up to fill it


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## tallyho! (29 April 2012)

Oberon said:



			I am finding that the more I learn, the more questions I have.

I reckon we still have a long way to go to fully understand what keeps horses, and hooves truly healthy.

No one has all the answers. But that doesn't mean we should stop asking questions. 

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Tell me about it...


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## tallyho! (29 April 2012)

Not sure why I am posting this, it is not new but for those that think trotting on roads with shoes on is acceptable for long periods of time.


http://www.easycareinc.com/app_system/lib/content/home/education/articles/Hoof-Loading-NHM.pdf


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## Goldenstar (29 April 2012)

Horsesforever1 said:



			i'd like mine to be barefoot but theres too much tarmac here and i do like to trot on roads and ride for hours. And dont tell me the feet will "condition" and grow quicker i response, not to the extent they need to they dont ;the hoof just wears down too quickly and therefore needs a shoe.
		
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I could have written that post until my horse showed me different.


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## tallyho! (29 April 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I could have written that post until my horse showed me different.
		
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 hee hee.... There's a barefooter/unshodererer in every one of us I reckon.... 

Someone once said to me (he was in fact a farrier, be in his 90's now) "the horse will teach you everything you wanna know. You only gotta listen" he cold shod horses if only he felt it was absolutely necessary. He had a forge in Somerset which all the kids rode to. He didn't shoe that much, mostly just gave them a good trim. some of the members may know him...


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## Moomin1 (29 April 2012)

Interesting article Tallyho!  

I can see some sense in what they are saying.

It does worry me how the front cover suggests using acupressure as a dewormer though.


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## rhino (29 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Not sure why I am posting this, it is not new but for those that think trotting on roads with shoes on is acceptable for long periods of time.

http://www.easycareinc.com/app_system/lib/content/home/education/articles/Hoof-Loading-NHM.pdf

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A 'wholistic' horsecare magazine which is actively promoting homeopathy for colic and acupressure for worms? Hmm, not so sure about that, and bar the magazine I can't find anywhere else the author's work is published  though her company 'Hoof squad' sounds like it would fit in well with the Barefoot Taliban


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## tallyho! (29 April 2012)

Alright guys! Let's not get a firkin hernia about homeopathy and witchcraft!!!!

It was the article I was interested in, not the front cover! 

Jeez... Try and look past the hocus pocus and you will see something of value. 

I am a bachelor physiologist with a pharmacy postgrad, and I work in pharma. I would not feed you lot trash if I can help it but sadly there are a lot of unpolished gemstones out there......


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## Oberon (29 April 2012)

*sigh* Just to clarify... The Barefoot Taliban does not believe homeopathy, voodoo or witchcraft can cure cancer.


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## maisie06 (29 April 2012)

OMG I started a random post that has turned in to world war 3 - oooooops!


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## Goldenstar (29 April 2012)

Oberon said:



			*sigh* Just to clarify... The Barefoot Taliban does not believe homeopathy, voodoo or witchcraft can cure cancer.
		
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Do you have a policy on acupressure for worms ( only joking )


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## tallyho! (29 April 2012)

Not for worms no, too wriggly for my liking... Be hard to get an accurate pinpoint on something so slimy.


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## Goldenstar (29 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Not for worms no, too wriggly for my liking... Be hard to get an accurate pinpoint on something so slimy.
		
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Just spat wine all over my iPad and it's your fault.!!!


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## tallyho! (29 April 2012)

iPads are resilient little beings... I find applying absorbent paper material very efficient. Works on accidental baby sick too.

P.s. not my baby.


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## Goldenstar (29 April 2012)

HHO advice for everything thanks I 'll remember that .


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## tallyho! (29 April 2012)

Will add to policy document....


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## MerrySherryRider (30 April 2012)

rhino said:



			A 'wholistic' horsecare magazine which is actively promoting homeopathy for colic and acupressure for worms? Hmm, not so sure about that, and bar the magazine I can't find anywhere else the author's work is published  though her company 'Hoof squad' sounds like it would fit in well with the Barefoot Taliban 

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Hmm, a redunant engineer and owner of one horse who teaches herself on the internet to become a hoofcare expert, lecturer, author and self proclaimed authority in all things hoofy.
Attends a 2 week Parelli course and rides her laminitic horse. Its ok though, because she also flogs easycare boots which she slaps on the horse so she doesn't miss the fun.
Along with promoting homeopathy for colic and acupressure for worms, she's surely at the cutting edge of equine health.

At a $100 a visit, I could have both a vet and farrier with 10 years training between them or a self internet-trained trimmer. Difficult decision. Maybe I'll just go with Angle Grinder Woman, another self trained expert.


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## amandap (30 April 2012)

Oberon said:



			*sigh* Just to clarify... The Barefoot Taliban does not believe homeopathy, voodoo or witchcraft can cure cancer.
		
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Lol again. Glad there is a spokesperson to clarify these matters. 

Some of us are obviously failing miserably to dispel the myths of voodoo, quackery and general love of chainsaws/grinders etc. 
MUST TRY HARDER.


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## tallyho! (30 April 2012)

Oopss...


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## amandap (30 April 2012)

That was on/for my 'report' tallyhoo.


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