# Hat ribbon etiquette?



## HCkernow (27 June 2014)

Can anyone please tell me about the etiquette regarding hat ribbons? As far as I'm aware hunt staff have ribbons pointing down, members of field have them stitched up. However, I vaguely remember something about farmers having them pointing down too. Is this correct or have I made that up!!!? Thanks for your help.


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## Sherston (28 June 2014)

Masters and Hunt Staff have ribbons hanging down, everyone else should have ribbons up, stitched under or tucked up. The reason being that hunt staff and masters are the only mounted followers you need to be able to recognise from behind, so no need to be able to identify farmers. From the front these people are recognisable by the number of buttons of course.

You may be confusing this with farmers being allowed to wear a hunt cap as opposed to other mounted followers who, to be dressed correctly, should be wearing a silk hat (top hat). This was in times long gone a dispensation to farmers (not to be confused with land owning gentry who would absolutely want to be seen in their finest) who would not be able to afford "top hat and tails"  not really seen as a privilege as it would be today. 

This would have come from times when more mounted followers would have their brass buttons than you generally see in hunts nowadays. But equally useful now with the hunts that unfortunately choose to refrain from wearing scarlet.

Hunters back in work in a couple of weeks, happy days!!

Hope this helps
Sherston


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## Houndman (3 July 2014)

I know a lot of Masters and staff who have the ribbons tied up, myself included.  TBH they are annoying dangling down.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (3 July 2014)

Houndman said:



			I know a lot of Masters and staff who have the ribbons tied up, myself included.  TBH they are annoying dangling down.
		
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tutt, that's just how standards slip, what's next ...........rubber boots?


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## Houndman (3 July 2014)

You won't see a single top hat or a swallow tail at our hunt or any of our neighbours these days.  Would you consider that to be standards slipping too?


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## Exploding Chestnuts (3 July 2014)

Houndman said:



			You won't see a single top hat or a swallow tail at our hunt or any of our neighbours these days.  Would you consider that to be standards slipping too?
		
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Of course I do , and can you believe that some people carry crops with handles made of "faux staghorn", not even silver ferrules, never mind personalised with owners initials.
http://www.sportingcollection.com/whips/hunting-whips.html


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## Happy Hunter (4 July 2014)

I do love my 1901 great aunt's crop handed down to me - It is of the kind MrsD describes, and i take great pleasure in bringing it out with me.
I do however also wear a safety skull cap without a ribbon in sight! Tut tut!


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## Houndman (4 July 2014)

I have great grandad's WW1 cavalry spurs (with the rowels ground off).

I've also got his cane hunting whip but it's a little large for my preferences (it's 26" long).

Of course, today many of our mounted susbscribers wear safety helmets/hats as opposed to traditional Patey style hunt caps.  

We still get the occasional farmer out in a flat cap but it wouldn't do you much good if you land on it, having said that their horses tend to be small, geriatric and practically comatose so there's probably not a lot of chance unless the rider falls asleep and slips off!

The white whips for hunt staff is an interesting one.  I am told this idea came from a Hunt Master in the mid 1800s who was fed up with having to look for his whip hidden in undewrgrowth.  If you put the white ones down, as hunt staff often do, they are very easy to find again!

Does anyone know where the idea of different numbers of buttons on the coats comes from? (3 for subscriber with colours, 4 for Master and 5 for hunt staff, 6 for staghounds (exceptions to these numbers are for swallow tail coats))

Black coats are traditionally 3 for cut-away bottoms and 4 for frock coat (straight bottom).

Hunts have different traditions over who is awarded the right to wear hunt buttons.  Our rule is someone who is a "regular subscriber" which equates to someone who has been a subscriber at least 5 years, or someone who has been less but has expended a lot of effort helping the hunt.  Some hunts automatically allow you to wear them once you have subscribed a season, and some are the other way where you have to subscribe for ages and also do a lot to help out.

As we have a lot of regular subscribers who are not mounted, the usual way is for them to wear a waistcoat with the hunt buttons stitched onto it.

Whips should always be carried with the handle behind your hand with the tip pointing down.  Carrying the handle in front of your hand could of course end with smashed teeth!


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## Houndman (4 July 2014)

Interesting reading the article about whips.  I always understood the length issue was more down to fashion, as well as the tendency to touch the horse's flanks rather than rump to encourage it on.  There's also a practical reason for hunt staff including cracking whips as far away from a horse as possible, not to mention around the kennels.  The Swaine hunt servants crops were pretty long (2ft along the rigid section) compared to the followers whips) and since the demise of the original Swaine Adeney company (the current one is not the same and no longer makes whips), Penstone Country Crafts (David Thorne) are now the main manufacturer of hunting whips in the UK and do theirs a similar length.  I have come across short Hunt Servants whips occasionally and they are more awkward to use.


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## RunToEarth (10 July 2014)

Houndman said:



			I know a lot of Masters and staff who have the ribbons tied up, myself included.  TBH they are annoying dangling down.
		
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I think when you are hunting with a lady master or staff who aren't wearing scarlet it is really important to have ribbons down.


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## Houndman (17 July 2014)

With hunts round these parts, nobody cares and I doubt anyone would even notice.  A lot of followers have modern helmet type hats anyway, many of which don't have ribbons, and traditional Hunt caps only account for about half the followers.  With our hunting, people come out to follow the hounds and see them in action, not for show.

Our rules are simply that helmets must be velvet covered - we do not want to see the shiny type helmets or those with reflective strips as they look incongruous.

If a follower can't recognise who's who regarding masters and hunt staff they've really no business being out with the hunt.

We do not absolutely insist on hunt uniform (though for regular subscribers it is pretty much expected) and we simply request that everyone is turned out cleanly and smartly.  Most people are sensible and respectful of the hunt.


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## isr (4 August 2014)

Wondering why dear Charles Owen has been producing all these lovely hats with the ribbons pointing down!  

Does anyone have a method for reversing the bow, or how difficult is it?  I hate to destroy 2 rather expensive hats!  

Seems odd to me since the velvet hats have gone completely out of fashion in the US showing world out side of hunting--perhaps that isn't the case in the UK--but since the hunters are the only ones using them, seems prudent to manufacturer the ribbons pointed up.


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## Houndman (4 August 2014)

The tails of the ribbons are simply sewn up inside the hat so they are not seen pointing down, alternatively some people just put the hat on in such a way that the ribbons are tucked up.  The bow remains the same.

I am unfamiliar with hats that are worn in the USA for riding (other than cowboy hats).  For hunting here, there are the velvet hunt caps (Patey type) or modern safety hat variations resembling it.


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