# Totilas...Stressage efficianado's please explain..



## nativetyponies (30 September 2010)

as i know yadda about the subject, but know a decent horse when i see one, WHY does T achieve such high marks when it cannot even track up in walk, let alone trot?

As i said, i know nothing about Stressage marking, but several animals walked far better than he does, yet everytime he was marked 8's/9's for his walk?

TBH it is pretty awful, isn't it?


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## Seahorse (30 September 2010)

yes I agree with you, I'm not a big fan of the horse at all, he moves oddly and you're right he doesn't track up! The other day he was moving in the piaffe and not stepping evenly behind in the passage as Carl said when he was commenting and he got 10's and 9's for that!!


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## *hic* (30 September 2010)

* sits quietly in corner watching for outcome and reading ancient copy of "The Emperor's New Clothes" *


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## Seahorse (30 September 2010)

LOL!!!!


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## R2R (30 September 2010)

I agree. You will get shot down in flames, as he has a massive fan base. I do see what you are talking about, especially in his extended work you can really see it -his back end is not as active as his front - but perhaps that is because his front end is SO expressive. 

Personally, I think Laura Bechtolsheimer's Mistral Hojris is more of a 'correct' horse in front and behind - his action is far more equal. I am delighted she is doing so well


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## nativetyponies (30 September 2010)

it's a shame really, as the spanish horse, the little grey Fuego, did a lovely expressive test and an extended trot that must be breathtaking to sit with, yet had only 6's/7's for his walk and it was really loose and fluid?


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## nativetyponies (30 September 2010)

R2R said:



			I agree. You will get shot down in flames, as he has a massive fan base. I do see what you are talking about, especially in his extended work you can really see it -his back end is not as active as his front - but perhaps that is because his front end is SO expressive.
		
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He's a bit Cut n Shut isn't he.....





psst.....don't tell, but he's known as Totalarse around here LOL


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## Amymay (30 September 2010)

He's a bit Cut n Shut isn't he.....
		
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It was very interesting to see a test done by him as a five year old - posted in CL a short time ago.

What a completely different horse he looked.  Actually very attractive and normal looking........  And moving far more correctly.


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## R2R (30 September 2010)

Yep agreed. I dont like dressage (much) but what I will say is his popularity is doing amazing things for the sport AND he is very VERY striking...I wonder if Horjis was black if he would start beating him?!!


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## Luci07 (30 September 2010)

I think there could well be an element now of "its Totillas" so he will get marked higher - same as in high level showing when a good performer can have its past achievements influencing the decision on the day. Maybe Laura B will see the benefit of this too! This is not really a critisism as think thats really human nature.

But at the end of the day - I am a Totillas fan and whatever you think, that horse has stepped up the anti in dressage. I watched spellbound at Windsor and one thing that came through strongly was how soft Edward Gal and Totillas looked whereas there were a lot of other combinations that by contract looked quite forced. IMO the nearest rider to Edward Gal was a young german girl (shamefully can't remember her name) who rode beautifully. At the WEG I thought the riding looked a lot softer with nearly everyone and the test with Laura B was so elegant. Top level dressage is also a lot to do with showmanship - thats the extra 2% and Totillas has it in buckets but its good to see that the gap is now closing..


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## irishcob (30 September 2010)

Mmm, agree his back end doesn't work as well as it could.  Just like horses who are consistently worked in Rolkur every day....   scuttles away to hide...


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## Seahorse (30 September 2010)

R2R said:



			I agree. You will get shot down in flames, as he has a massive fan base. I do see what you are talking about, especially in his extended work you can really see it -his back end is not as active as his front - but perhaps that is because his front end is SO expressive. 

Personally, I think Laura Bechtolsheimer's Mistral Hojris is more of a 'correct' horse in front and behind - his action is far more equal. I am delighted she is doing so well 

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Totally agree with you there, Mistral Hojris is much more correct and nicer to watch! Totilas didn't make me cry but they did!!


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## nativetyponies (30 September 2010)

oh, i don't doubt T has done loads for the sport, but that alone shouldn't blind people to the fact that he isn't "correct" and his name alone shouldn't win classes... IMO


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## R2R (30 September 2010)

Seahorse said:



			Totally agree with you there, Mistral Hojris is much more correct and nicer to watch! Totilas didn't make me cry but they did!!
		
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Me too, it was lovely to see her working down after the test as well.


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## Caledonia (30 September 2010)

My favourite test was Fuego's. He was incredibly active in the piaffe and passage, and just danced throughout. He made a far more pleasing picture than anyone else, IMO.


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## Honey08 (30 September 2010)

Tortilas' passage was amazing IMO, and he has wonderful natural rhythm, which adds to the specialness.  I was suprised at the tens he got for other movements.  I thought his canter pirouettes were much poorer than Mistral's, yet he got higher marks.

Fuego was amazing to watch, very dramatic,and obviously born to do those movements, but he looked very tense in places.

Many top people said that Laura should have won, including the american commentator, especially in the team event.  I thought her test was beautiful to watch.. Pure elegance and accuracy.   She looked such a nice person - always smiling, cooling down her horse, and like she loved him to bits.

Most of the tests were fantastic to watch - even for a non - dressage fan.  The last three were magic!


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## Jump2It (30 September 2010)

he has amazing rhythmn which is what gets him a lot of the very high marks..people think he doesnt work from behind but its just because he is so expressive infront.. the last 5 were a class above...a lot of people just like to be 'different' in criticising totilas tbh


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## Hippona (30 September 2010)

There were several horses with really expressive front end action....with not much going on behind IMO. FWIW.


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## R2R (30 September 2010)

Jump2It said:



			he has amazing rhythmn which is what gets him a lot of the very high marks..people think he doesnt work from behind but its just because he is so expressive infront.. the last 5 were a class above...a lot of people just like to be 'different' in criticising totilas tbh
		
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I am not trying to be 'different' by saying what I see, you dont have to like him!!!


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## nativetyponies (30 September 2010)

R2R said:



			I am not trying to be 'different' by saying what I see, you dont have to like him!!!
		
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Baaa


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## Burnttoast (30 September 2010)

What I find weird about him (and about some other top horses) is how little he lengthens through his frame in extensions - with Alf the whole frame is completely different in extensions, he's not just waving his legs about more! Leg mover anyone??


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## Andalusianlover (30 September 2010)

Caledonia said:



			My favourite test was Fuego's. He was incredibly active in the piaffe and passage, and just danced throughout. He made a far more pleasing picture than anyone else, IMO.
		
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I agree but then I'm a bit biased as an Andalusian owner>  Fuego was just as expressive in front as Totilas if not more so but his backend matched his front.

I'm just very pleased that an Andalusian can play up there with the big boys!

I would have loved to have been able to see Adelinde Cornelissen though I think her horse is awesome.


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## chestnut cob (30 September 2010)

Caledonia said:



			My favourite test was Fuego's. He was incredibly active in the piaffe and passage, and just danced throughout. He made a far more pleasing picture than anyone else, IMO.
		
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I quite like that test as well, though he had moments where he looked tense as well (or at least my uneducated eye thought so).  I like his canter.

I've also now seen Totilas' test.  Can I ask... what mark(s) did he get for his free walk?  

Can I ask possibly another dumb question... when they show extended paces, what *should* it look like?  I didn't think they were supposed to look like trotters but both horses (particularly Totilas IMHO) seem to be all knee action.  I know bugger all about dressage but they seem to be cycling in front and not really moving forwards.  Is this correct?  We sometimes have a DR rider come to our yard to teach (I don't have lessons with her but have watched a few of them) and I have never seen her teach medium trot to look like this... I am confused!


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## chestnut cob (30 September 2010)

Murf15 said:



			What I find weird about him (and about some other top horses) is how little he lengthens through his frame in extensions - with Alf the whole frame is completely different in extensions, he's not just waving his legs about more! Leg mover anyone??
		
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Agree.  I think this is the question I have asked in my post below, though rather less eloquently and succinctly than you!


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## Burnttoast (30 September 2010)

chestnut cob said:



			Agree.  I think this is the question I have asked in my post below, though rather less eloquently and succinctly than you!
		
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Yes! Alf is what they should look like IMO. You sometimes see Laura gathering in handfuls of rein at the end of an extension (much more elegantly than I ever gather in my reins, obviously ), whereas the most I see with Totilas is EG's hands moving an inch or two. I don't really like it.


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## SirenaXVI (30 September 2010)

I do like Totilas but I can see why people don't tbh.  For me, I cannot make my mind up whether the front end is SO expressive that it makes it look like he is not through properly or whether he really is less active behind 

His piaffe is the best I have seen on a non Iberian - so many of the warmbloods just cannot perform this movement properly - he does and does it well.

I agree that Laura deserved to win, her horse is just so much more correct.  There is without doubt a 'Totilas' factor and we are in danger of judges being scared to mark this horse down, he did a good test no doubt about it, I preferred both Laura's and the spanish horse (no surprise there then ).

Fuego did brilliantly to get such a high place, but listening to Nicky Barrett commentating was interesting, she made some very good points and I wish the judges could have heard them.  Basically a lot of dressage judges have no idea how to judge these Iberians, they ARE shorter in the neck than a warmblood and judges need to stop using the wamblood as a yardstick - but then that is a whole different thread! 

I do have a bugbear with Laura - she is FAR too young and pretty


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## asterid (30 September 2010)

I am so going to get a blasting for this, but hey since you asked! 

Well, the way the horse is trained is using Rollkur. Edward is an Anky's protege. Although I guess Rollkur has it's place, I am not a fan. 

As a consequence in my personal opinion, this creates a horse that has it's head tucked in, but no hind action. The horse does not flex at the poll, it is about C3/4. (in BD or FEI horses should be on or slighly in front of the vertical)

In the advanced movements such as Piaffe or Passage the legs do not move parellel in diagonal lines as in say Laura B's horse. 

Everyone raves about this horse because it has a flashy front end. But that is no good if you are lacking rear end. Yes it can do Grand Prix moves, but I bet you that this horse come 12 years old will be burnt out. Sadly the judges are only seeing the flsahy front end and are missing the rear end. 

The difference between Totilas and Alf is the training. Laura allows her horse forwards working correctly from behind whereas Totilas is gathered too much in front and hyperflexed.

I know which horse I'd have!

*waves flag in surrender* Please dont shoot me down, just my opinion.


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## Laura1812 (30 September 2010)

This is the reason I don't like Totilas

http://www.klubequus.org/totilas/

He does not move correctly or truely. Its not the horses fault - it is the way he has been trained. It simply isn't correct and shouldn't be awarded the high marks it achieves.


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## asterid (30 September 2010)

Phew, thanks Laura, for a moment there I thought I was on my own! Completely agree.


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## R2R (30 September 2010)

asterid said:



			I am so going to get a blasting for this, but hey since you asked! 

Well, the way the horse is trained is using Rollkur. Edward is an Anky's protege. Although I guess Rollkur has it's place, I am not a fan. 

As a consequence in my personal opinion, this creates a horse that has it's head tucked in, but no hind action. The horse does not flex at the poll, it is about C3/4. (in BD or FEI horses should be on or slighly in front of the vertical)

In the advanced movements such as Piaffe or Passage the legs do not move parellel in diagonal lines as in say Laura B's horse. 

Everyone raves about this horse because it has a flashy front end. But that is no good if you are lacking rear end. Yes it can do Grand Prix moves, but I bet you that this horse come 12 years old will be burnt out. Sadly the judges are only seeing the flsahy front end and are missing the rear end. 

The difference between Totilas and Alf is the training. Laura allows her horse forwards working correctly from behind whereas Totilas is gathered too much in front and hyperflexed.

I know which horse I'd have!

*waves flag in surrender* Please dont shoot me down, just my opinion.
		
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I am proud that we are saying the same thing...you are more clever at it than me though!!!


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## chestnut cob (30 September 2010)

asterid said:



			Phew, thanks Laura, for a moment there I thought I was on my own! Completely agree.
		
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Not on your own.  I don't like him either, never have, but I don't know whether that's because my eye is totally uneducated so maybe I'm just missing something!

IMHO if you cover up the front end of him and just watch the back, it looks like a totally different horse.  He's obviously a very sweet and willing horse but I just can't see what about him is worth those sorts of marks.


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## asterid (30 September 2010)

It really grates on me. As we see so many young horses doing Grand Prix dressage when they are not mentally or physically ready. Horses are pushed through training to make money. (I do unerstand this) but my ethos is somewhat different. I like horses to take their time and ultimately do the job willingly and in harmony, which is what BD is all about (well supposed to be). 

Laura B's horse is demonstrating a happy willing horse. 

The judges are only seeing this flashy front end, which impressive as it is, is only a small part of the picture. 

It is dissapointing that if top level judges are rating Totilas as a superhorse, they are totally missing the point of dressage! Which is why some people adopt rollkur or other forceful strategies to push through horses that are not ready, so are resorting to these awful training methods. Rant rant rant..........

(Im going to stop now)


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## LauraWheeler (30 September 2010)

nativeponies said:



			oh, i don't doubt T has done loads for the sport, but that alone shouldn't blind people to the fact that he isn't "correct" and his name alone shouldn't win classes... IMO
		
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I agree with this. Also I have said this before (and got shot down in flames for it) But many horses in dressage today inclu T are over bent and have way to much front action. After all the horse is ment to work from behind. 
I have had all the comments of "you are not a top rider" and "you don't ride at that level" "so who are you to critasise". This is my oppinion and also how I was taught dressage should be. It makes me sad to see dressage becoming more about circus trick type movments that are not always good for the horse.


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## tweedette (30 September 2010)

I always think what can an animal put back to the breed, and no matter how much I love Alf's work, hes a gelding . totilas is an amazing animal, and entire, would I risk the 5k stud fee to a good mare if I could afford - you bet. I also agree to what the commentators said also last night about different animals/breeds having different gaits , this I feel put the spanish horse at a disadvantage . I just wonder how many dressage judges are 'au fait' with different breeds/styles? Again I question some of the scores though ,


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## TheMule (30 September 2010)

nativeponies said:



			it's a shame really, as the spanish horse, the little grey Fuego, did a lovely expressive test and an extended trot that must be breathtaking to sit with, yet had only 6's/7's for his walk and it was really loose and fluid?
		
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I'm a massive Fuego fan but his walk was neither loose or fluid, it was tense and shuffley


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## asterid (30 September 2010)

tweedette said:



			I always think what can an animal put back to the breed, and no matter how much I love Alf's work, hes a gelding . totilas is an amazing animal, and entire, would I risk the 5k stud fee to a good mare if I could afford - you bet. I also agree to what the commentators said also last night about different animals/breeds having different gaits , this I feel put the spanish horse at a disadvantage . I just wonder how many dressage judges are 'au fait' with different breeds/styles? Again I question some of the scores though ,
		
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I wouldn't breed from him. We are judging a horses performance, and there is no way in this world I would want a horse of mine to lack the clairty and correctness of movement let alone such a hyperlfexed neck. 

We can't dismiss Laura's horse because he is a gelding. So we can't breed from him, so what? Totilas does nothing for me and I wouldn't want his foal. 

Sorry.


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## TheMule (30 September 2010)

Love him or hate him, Totilas has an exceptionally beautifully balanced passage which fully deserved all those 10s.

For me, his weakness is his changes where he doesnt come through enough from behind. His walk isnt a massive problem but yes, it's not really high scoring due to the slight tension there


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## 4faults (30 September 2010)

I personally love Totilas the horse is amazing, he is rythmical and powerful and does exactly what he is asked, to watch Edward ride is amazing.
 I do think Alf is the more correct horse and watching Lauras tests makes me cry  I had my fingers crossed that Totilas would spook or something and she would get gold but sadly it was not to be. 
However I dont think its right for anyone to be ripping into a horse that has done nothing but what he has been asked to and has done so much for the sport.


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## Lobelia_Overhill (30 September 2010)

This week is the first time I've seen Totilas properly, I was expecting to be blown away by him, but I wasn't. Yes he has a very showy knee action, but nothing else about him made me sit up. There were other horses that were as good as, and better than him, Mistral Horjis and Fuego being cases in point.

But then Totilas is 'only' 10, so another couple of years might see him become a more complete horse.


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## Carefreegirl (30 September 2010)

nativeponies said:



			He's a bit Cut n Shut isn't he.....



Blimey, read that quickly, had to re-read pretty damn fast ! Thats the trouble when your mind is in the sewer !
		
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## Laura1812 (30 September 2010)

TheMule said:



			Love him or hate him, Totilas has an exceptionally beautifully balanced passage which fully deserved all those 10s.

For me, his weakness is his changes where he doesnt come through enough from behind. His walk isnt a massive problem but yes, it's not really high scoring due to the slight tension there
		
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No he doesn't, there isn't purity of gait in his passage and he is carrying his weight incorrectly.

He is also 4 time in his walk - in fact - all of his gaits are not pure or true at times.

Again - this is because of his training NOT because he was born like it IMHO


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## chestnut cob (30 September 2010)

4faults said:



			However I dont think its right for anyone to be ripping into a horse that has done nothing but what he has been asked to and has done so much for the sport.
		
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I don't think people really are "ripping into" him.  Yes the horse has done what he has been asked to do but that doesn't mean his training has been correct.  When people comment on "Totilas" I think it is more a comment on him as a product of his training.  If it is true that he really is trained in rollkur then I think it says an awful lot about his sweet temperament that he is so willing!

In terms of what he has done for the sport... yes he may have made dressage more exciting and more accessible but at what price?  For people to think he is how a dressage horse should move and that his training is correct?  For people at home to aspire to train in rollkur?  For the general public to think a dressage horse should move like a trotter?  I'm not sure it is worth that price.


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## martlin (30 September 2010)

QR
I don't like Totilas, but then again, I'm not much into dressage... If given the choice, I prefer the ''floaters'' over the ''flashers'' 
And there is no way in creation he could take off over any sort of jump with a back end like that


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## amandap (30 September 2010)

amymay said:



			It was very interesting to see a test done by him as a five year old - posted in CL a short time ago.

What a completely different horse he looked.  Actually very attractive and normal looking........  And moving far more correctly.
		
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Lobelia_Overhill said:



			But then Totilas is 'only' 10, so another couple of years might see him become a more complete horse.
		
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I'm a dressage numpty but I find these two comments really interesting. Wonder how Totilas will end up?

He may be doing wonders for the sport but if he isn't 'correct' (as some seem to think) what sort of role model is he and where will he take future dressage horses? Time will tell I suppose...


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## nativetyponies (30 September 2010)

TheMule said:



			I'm a massive Fuego fan but his walk was neither loose or fluid, it was tense and shuffley
		
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for an Andy i thought it was


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## Meowy Catkin (30 September 2010)

Laura1812 said:



			He is also 4 time in his walk - in fact - all of his gaits are not pure or true at times.
		
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Walk isn't a 4 beat gait? Dangoddit! My mare's doing it all wrong!


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## chestnut cob (30 September 2010)

Laura1812 said:



			Again - this is because of his training NOT because he was born like it IMHO
		
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^^  This ^^

There are videos of him as a 4yo looking much more correct than he does now.  I can't see how there would be a problem breeding from him though (referring to a post above where someone said they wouldn't want to pass on the lack of clarity, correctness and the hyperflexed neck); surely these things are a primarily a product of his training, not his genetics?


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## pip6 (30 September 2010)

I'm very definately not a dressage person (endurance actually), but have always thought his back & front ends weren't matched. He goes with a lovely attitude, but that trot to me looks like a circus act. Bit like doing spanish walk for an extended walk


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## Seahorse (30 September 2010)

asterid said:



			I am so going to get a blasting for this, but hey since you asked! 

Well, the way the horse is trained is using Rollkur. Edward is an Anky's protege. Although I guess Rollkur has it's place, I am not a fan. 

As a consequence in my personal opinion, this creates a horse that has it's head tucked in, but no hind action. The horse does not flex at the poll, it is about C3/4. (in BD or FEI horses should be on or slighly in front of the vertical)

In the advanced movements such as Piaffe or Passage the legs do not move parellel in diagonal lines as in say Laura B's horse. 

Everyone raves about this horse because it has a flashy front end. But that is no good if you are lacking rear end. Yes it can do Grand Prix moves, but I bet you that this horse come 12 years old will be burnt out. Sadly the judges are only seeing the flsahy front end and are missing the rear end. 

The difference between Totilas and Alf is the training. Laura allows her horse forwards working correctly from behind whereas Totilas is gathered too much in front and hyperflexed.

I know which horse I'd have!

*waves flag in surrender* Please dont shoot me down, just my opinion.
		
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I completely agree with you, you are spot on!!


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## Laura1812 (30 September 2010)

amandap said:



			I'm a dressage numpty but I find these two comments really interesting. Wonder how Totilas will end up?

He may be doing wonders for the sport but if he isn't 'correct' (as some seem to think) what sort of role model is he and where will he take future dressage horses? Time will tell I suppose...
		
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I think if he continues the way he is going, in another 3-4 years he will end up broken.


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## nativetyponies (30 September 2010)

martlin said:



			And there is no way in creation he could take off over any sort of jump with a back end like that  

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so, no chance of EG taking him Combined then?


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## nativetyponies (30 September 2010)

Faracat said:



			Walk isn't a 4 beat gait? Dangoddit! My mare's doing it all wrong! 

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..


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## nativetyponies (30 September 2010)

Laura1812 said:



			I think if he continues the way he is going, in another 3-4 years he will end up broken.
		
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he will be raking in the Stud Fees LONG before that...


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## martlin (30 September 2010)

nativeponies said:



			so, no chance of EG taking him Combined then?   

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LOL, probably not... 

But seriously, I like to see horse's body positioned over its legs, not behind them and at a tilting angle 
I also don't think he truly comes through over his top, he's just bent


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## Seahorse (30 September 2010)

Laura1812 said:



			This is the reason I don't like Totilas

http://www.klubequus.org/totilas/

He does not move correctly or truely. Its not the horses fault - it is the way he has been trained. It simply isn't correct and shouldn't be awarded the high marks it achieves.
		
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thanks for putting in that link, very interesting!

I do believe that after Windsor, Gerd Herschmann used Totillas as an example of an incorrectly trained horse in one of his demo's!!


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## Laura1812 (30 September 2010)

Faracat said:



			Walk isn't a 4 beat gait? Dangoddit! My mare's doing it all wrong! 

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oops meant a lateral walk


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## nativetyponies (30 September 2010)

martlin said:



			LOL, probably not... 

But seriously, I like to see horse's body positioned over its legs, not behind them and at a tilting angle 
I also don't think he truly comes through over his top, he's just bent

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d'ya know what comes to mind when he's doing his "extended trot"?

a Tennesee Walking Horse........................................


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## chestnut cob (30 September 2010)

Seahorse said:



			thanks for putting in that link, very interesting!

I do believe that after Windsor, Gerd Herschmann used Totillas as an example of an incorrectly trained horse in one of his demo's!!
		
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Yes he did.  And he claimed that he would have broken down by the time he was 10 I think.

Though I'm not sure GH should be used as an example of anything on this thread, given recent photos of his riding...  his theory may be sound (IMO) but his riding is leaves something to be desired!


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## Laura1812 (30 September 2010)

nativeponies said:



			he will be raking in the Stud Fees LONG before that...
		
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Yup....


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## asterid (30 September 2010)

Laura1812 said:



			I think if he continues the way he is going, in another 3-4 years he will end up broken.
		
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Agreed. 

Chestnut Cob, Agree it is a product of training not genetics, but I wouldn't put a mare into foal with him, as people breed based on breeding lines and performance. Based on his performance of lack of clarity e.t.c. that is why I wouldn't breed from him regardless of lines. He is poor marketing for a 'true' dressage horse.


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## Flame_ (30 September 2010)

If a flashy front end was all that was required to win Grand Prix dressage, wouldn't they all just ride hackneys?

Totilas must have a bit more going for him than that. I thought his test was very impressive (although I know Jack about dressage). You have a point about the walk and the judges perhaps marking over-generously to make sure the overall mark stays outstanding.


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## asterid (30 September 2010)

Flame_ said:



			If a flashy front end was all that was required to win Grand Prix dressage, wouldn't they all just ride hackneys?

Totilas must have a bit more going for him than that. I thought his test was very impressive (although I know Jack about dressage). You have a point about the walk and the judges perhaps marking over-generously to make sure the overall mark stays outstanding.
		
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To the untrained eye he looks an amazing horse. It isn't until you look at his movment in more detail that you see the incorrect gaits and movements. Its like a picture of a photoshopped model really, Pretty to look at, but not the real thing.


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## Flame_ (30 September 2010)

asterid said:



			To the untrained eye he looks an amazing horse. It isn't until you look at his movment in more detail that you see the incorrect gaits and movements. Its like a picture of a photoshopped model really, Pretty to look at, but not the real thing.
		
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The judges appear to disagree, and they must know at least a little bit about dressage.   So what kind of marks should he have been getting taking into account his "incorrectness"?


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## Louby (30 September 2010)

Totilas had it won the moment he walked into the arena, did you not see the judges face, broke into a big ooooh aaaah gooey smile 
The Andalusian did it for me, how hard was that horse trying


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## asterid (30 September 2010)

Flame_ said:



			The judges appear to disagree, and they must know at least a little bit about dressage.   So what kind of marks should he have been getting taking into account his "incorrectness"?
		
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This horse causes a lot of controversy. A huge amount of people know this horse moves incorrectly, wether it is judge backhanders or whatever, this horse wins. And he wins NOT on merit. You'd have to ask the judges why they place it first, but you can bet your bottom dollar it isn't due to being correct.


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## HappyHorses:) (30 September 2010)

Flame_ said:



			If a flashy front end was all that was required to win Grand Prix dressage, wouldn't they all just ride hackneys?

Totilas must have a bit more going for him than that. I thought his test was very impressive (although I know Jack about dressage). You have a point about the walk and the judges perhaps marking over-generously to make sure the overall mark stays outstanding.
		
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^^ agreed^^

We have all, I'm sure, seen a dressage test that shouldn't have won a class but did because of who is riding. It's a shame but it does happen through all levels 

I enjoy watching Totilas and Ed-G because they do look like a great partnership. I agree I personally don't think he tracks up very well and needs to improve on his changes but maybe thats because he has come up to this level at quite a young age and in doing so lost some of the naturalness (not a word?!) of the paces he showed as a 5 year old.
Everyone has a right to their point of view, I for one always think Lauras horses look very heavy in her hands, but to be world champion at such a young age must mean there is something special about him. 

Each to their own tho. If we all liked the same thing the world would be pretty dull.


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## Seahorse (30 September 2010)

chestnut cob said:



			Yes he did.  And he claimed that he would have broken down by the time he was 10 I think.

Though I'm not sure GH should be used as an example of anything on this thread, given recent photos of his riding...  his theory may be sound (IMO) but his riding is leaves something to be desired!
		
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He's 10 now isn't he?


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## SirenaXVI (30 September 2010)

asterid said:



			This horse causes a lot of controversy. A huge amount of people know this horse moves incorrectly, wether it is judge backhanders or whatever, this horse wins. And he wins NOT on merit. You'd have to ask the judges why they place it first, but you can bet your bottom dollar it isn't due to being correct.
		
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Yup this horse does cause controversy - you only have to look at this thread to see that lol!  I cannot believe the judges are taking backhanders however!  I do think though that they are now too scared to mark the horse down for fear of stepping out of the box.

I personally think that Laura deserved the gold and Fuego the silver, but as long as Totilas is on the dressage scene, he will continue to win, that is unless the judges grow some balls.

I do love this horse's attitude and would have no hesitation using him as a stallion, it is his training that has caused the incorrectness, not the horse, his tests as a 4yo only confirm this, his paces are true and very loose and free.  Must admit I would use Fuego over him any day though (sorry I know I am biased )


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## nativetyponies (30 September 2010)

asterid said:



			This horse causes a lot of controversy. A huge amount of people know this horse moves incorrectly, wether it is judge backhanders or whatever, this horse wins. And he wins NOT on merit. You'd have to ask the judges why they place it first, but you can bet your bottom dollar it isn't due to being correct.
		
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mmmm.........


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## xRobyn (30 September 2010)

I know very little about dressage, although find this thread very interesting.

I can't help but think that he must have started off ideal/correct in order to make such a big name for himself? The horse that is. Or is it just due to the rider? If so, if he has been sold then should we expect Totilas to be judged fairly based on what the judges can see before them (and potentially do poorly?) and Gal succeeding with another incorrect horse?


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## honetpot (30 September 2010)

I saw Totilas last year at Olympia, and although in apprecited the showmanship comparing the tests in the Grand Prix I thought on balance there were better horses. My friend who just watched the GP specail thought he was wonderful.
  It just makes what all the judges spout about, free, forward etc a whole load of bunk, but I love to know what they say to each other when they watch the rerun at the debrief. 
We wiil have to put up with it until the next best thing comes along, unfortuately a lot of the older riders who have have put him to prepective have unfortuately passed away


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## frustrated (30 September 2010)

I have always loved Totilas, I felt he had read the book, but last night it was Mistral Hojris night his last centre line made me cry, if Totilas had read the book Mistral wrote it. Totilas was awarded 10s everywere even when they wern't warrented. Its like the judges just expected to see perfection and jugded the name not what they saw which is a great shame for the sport and for Laura.


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## Chestnuttymare (30 September 2010)

I think Totilas is a beautiful horse but feel very uncomdortable watching him tbh, i can't stand the thought of rolkur. 

What I am not understanding though, is that pretty much everyone here sees what is lacking with his tests, esp with his back end, why do the judges not see this. Surely they know way more than most of us here and if we can see it, then why don't they? Is it just a case of the judges seeing him walking into the arena and thinking they will be lynched if he doesn't win, or maybe look stupid if they mark him lower as he has won everything else.

Just thought you might like to see this. It just looks so different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zulF9XTRVMs


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## nativetyponies (30 September 2010)

I wonder what Dr K would think of Totalarse?


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## eahotson (30 September 2010)

Nativeponies why are you being so rude about the horse? You may not like his training or movements or the way he is ridden BUT WHY blame the HORSE.


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## nativetyponies (30 September 2010)

eahotson said:



			Nativeponies why are you being so rude about the horse? You may not like his training or movements or the way he is ridden BUT WHY blame the HORSE.
		
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rude about the horse?...ahh, you mean the nickname we've given him around here?

dont worry, i'm sure no-one will tell him.


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## micramadam (30 September 2010)

There are loads of comments on here that I agree and disagree with. 
Would just like to point out that the Dutch Warmblood studbook originally rejected Totilas as an approved stallion. Various reasons. He has only been accepted this last year or so because of his performances. Time will tell if he can pass this ability onto his offspring and here they have been very sly by selecting only the best mares. He is a phenonenon but is it natural or trained and will it last? 
I don't dislike him but think judges daren't mark him down for fear of being ridiculed? But then again this is just my opinion.


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## FrodoBeutlin (30 September 2010)

To all those who criticise him: what is it exactly that is so incorrect??

I agree I don't like his extravagant extensions and he does tend to go deep in the one tempis (he is TEN, surely he is allowed to be a little green there), but that's only two movements! Everything else is so perfect!

Come on, if one read this thread without having seen the horse one would think he drags his hindlegs all the time!


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## nativetyponies (30 September 2010)

moving pictures are far better at telling a story


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## FrodoBeutlin (30 September 2010)

Ok, a schooling video then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8L1Od1Z1d8&feature=related

I really don't see what the problem is.


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## Laura1812 (30 September 2010)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			Ok, a schooling video then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8L1Od1Z1d8&feature=related

I really don't see what the problem is.
		
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You obviously missed my first post

http://www.klubequus.org/totilas/

Now tell me what is correct about it? There is a lack of purity in ALL gaits with Totilas


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## Laura1812 (30 September 2010)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			Ok, a schooling video then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8L1Od1Z1d8&feature=related

I really don't see what the problem is.
		
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In the first 30 secs of that video he has a lateral walk and is BTV the whole time. According to the FEI that is not 'correct'.


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## martlin (30 September 2010)

Well, I have already said what I don't like about him.
In the above video, there was some 4 beat trot for example - OK, very slight, but still, I can see it and I am a SJ 
The overriding impression I get in his extensions, apart from being ''expressive'', there isn't much happening above his knee TBH, his frame backs off even more if anything, he doesn't extend, he just waves his legs about.
In half passes, his legs go way sideways before his body does.

But hey, who am I to judge, still, I hope I am allowed not to like him?

ETS - and he's overbent


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## FrodoBeutlin (30 September 2010)

Laura1812 said:



			You obviously missed my first post

http://www.klubequus.org/totilas/

Now tell me what is correct about it? There is a lack of purity in ALL gaits with Totilas
		
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Diagonal dissociation (DAP) has been proven to be a characteristic of all top dressage horses. A lot of people actually consider it a positive trait! Try and read Dr Hilary Clayton's research into this. It's got nothing to do with training, it's just the way the horses move.

Here's a picture of Alf, a most classically-trained horse - yet the same diagonal dissociation we've seen in Totilas:







As for the pirouette, pirouettes ARE in a 4-beat canter!!

Alf again. Precisely same image as Totilas..


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## celia (30 September 2010)

This is a very interesting thread. I'll admit I'm no expert regarding dressage but watching him the last couple of nights had me wondering if I was alone in thinking a couple of horses did nicer tests! I'm glad to see other people are as confused as I am! 

He's a very attractive horse and IMO his passage was stunning but he didn't look as if he were using his back end correctly in some movements - especially the changes and extensions. I did wonder if this was in comparision to such big movement in front but I've always thought that the correct way of going was a reasonably equal amount of lift and reach, front and behind? 

I also had a wonder to myself whether, after he's been given such high scores, judges would feel obliged to continue in the same vein regardless of what they would normally give? Maybe it's even a tactical manoeuvre - he is after all bringing publicity to dressage! 

I was definitely feeling very frustrated that Laura B was placed 2nd with such a fabulous test - IMO she should have won! Maybe I'm biased as a Brit but I thought Alf was incredible and certainly the best test I've seen!


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## ThePony (30 September 2010)

Glad I'm not the only one who isn't terribly keen on him. He just didn't seem to move as fluidly as (eg) MH, his front end is very flashy but he doesn't seem to get the elevation and propulsion from his back end. I was stunned that his extended walk was scored so high, it seemed very stiff and stilted with hardly any extension. He seems to really try but just doesn't push through and work from behind enough. I know people are saying 'oh, but he is 10 he is allowed to be a little green'. Well, yes he is, but if he competes against others at this level then he needs to expect to be judged on a level with them, not 'well, he is a little green but is very good for his age'!

Sorry if this is a stupid question (not a horse physio so my understanding of musculature is basic at most!), with the top level dressage horses you get some with very triangular necks (just thinking of those for whom it isn't a breed characteristic) yet aren't very 'butty'. If dressage is all about correctness, a big part of this I understand is to be working from behind. So (very basically!) the quarters and back legs are the engine, with the neck as balance. Surely work rather than balance should result in larger muscles in that area?


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## Tempi (30 September 2010)

Photos are only a moment in time - anyone can freeze frame a video and make the horse look bad!! I saw some recent amateur pictures of Alf and some of them he and Laura looked awful in!! Thats because they were just a moment in time and they were caught at the wrong moment that dosent provide a pleasing photo.

As for 4 beat canter, like FB said canter pirouette is ridden in 4 beat.  

Yes Totilas has a very extravagant movement - but are you saying that the top judges in the world dont know what they are doing??  

Laura and Alf's test was lovely, but some of Ed's transitions/preparations for movements where a lot better executed than Laura's which is where Ed picked up more marks than her.


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## asterid (30 September 2010)

http://camera-obscura-billie.blogspot.com/2009/08/little-more-on-totilas.html


Ummmmmm...............


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## brighteyes (30 September 2010)

nativeponies said:



			He's a bit Cut n Shut isn't he.....





psst.....don't tell, but he's known as Totalarse around here LOL
		
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Ha exactly the term I used when talking to someone last night - and The Emperor's New Clothes is another of my favourite oblique references!


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## asterid (30 September 2010)

And for those who'd like to know a little more about rollkur 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UwqyMCr_7c

(Although I actually think that LDR is not quite the same as Rollkur. LDR is more a lower frame than rollkur which is hyperflexed). 


Now look at Totilas in his movements. Any comparison?????


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## angelish (30 September 2010)

quote:
Diagonal dissociation (DAP) has been proven to be a characteristic of all top dressage horses. A lot of people actually consider it a positive trait! Try and read Dr Hilary Clayton's research into this. It's got nothing to do with training, it's just the way the horses move.

Here's a picture of Alf, a most classically-trained horse - yet the same diagonal dissociation we've seen in Totilas:

hi ,can you be so kind to explain what DAP is ? 
also my instructor nearly pulled me off & kicked me for developing a 4 beat canter on my horse ,do you mean the canter needs to be 4 beat to develope a piroette ?
sorry for being thick  i'm just interested 

as for totilas ,he took my breath away the first time i seen him and i do enjoy watching him but i did think lauras team test was better however i think totilas upped his game last night.
i also was puzzeled by the marking though i didn't think he deserved some of those 10s and do think it is a bit "oh its totilas 10" 
but i am british so obviously i thought laura should have won 

doe's any one want to admit that if he was british bred and flying our flag that he would of course be wonderful


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## martlin (30 September 2010)

angelish said:



			doe's any one want to admit that if he was british bred and flying our flag that he would of course be wonderful  

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I couldn't care less, I'm not British


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## angelish (30 September 2010)

yea but a lot on here are  i think anyway 

come on though there has to be a bit of jealousy ,he doe's seem to be unbeatable


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## nativetyponies (30 September 2010)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			Ok, a schooling video then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8L1Od1Z1d8&feature=related

I really don't see what the problem is.
		
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as i said in my OP....He doesn't track up....at all..thats what the problem is.


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## FrodoBeutlin (30 September 2010)

angelish said:



			hi ,can you be so kind to explain what DAP is ? 
also my instructor nearly pulled me off & kicked me for developing a 4 beat canter on my horse ,do you mean the canter needs to be 4 beat to develope a piroette ?
sorry for being thick  i'm just interested 

does any one want to admit that if he was british bred and flying our flag that he would of course be wonderful  

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From Dressage America's Glossary of Judging Dressage Terms:

Dissociation, Diagonal Dissociation (Also diagonal Advanced Placement or DAP) The hooves of a diagonal pair of limbs ( in trot or canter) do not contact the ground at the same moment.
1. Positive Dissociation - the hind hoof of the diagonal pair touches the ground first (as in canter pirouette and racing gallop - 4 beats.)
2. Negative Dissociation - the front hoof of the diagonal pair touches the ground first (as in lazy, constrained, or disorganized canter - 4 beats). 

As for the canter pirouette: canter (with the exception of pirouettes) should always be three beat, so your trainer is right; however, it is physically impossible for the horse to perform a canter pirouette in a true three beat rhythm.


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## nativetyponies (30 September 2010)

martlin said:



			I couldn't care less, I'm not British 

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i couldn't care less and i'm supposed to be British


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## angelish (30 September 2010)

thanks frodobeutlin 
learn something new every day


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## FrodoBeutlin (30 September 2010)

angelish said:



 yea but a lot on here are  i think anyway 

come on though there has to be a bit of jealousy ,he doe's seem to be unbeatable 

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Of course Angelish!! It's only in the UK that I've read people saying Alf should have got the gold   I think it's natural, a bit of nationalism is inevitable!


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## ThePony (30 September 2010)

I don't think my views are to do with me being english!  Obv I would have liked Laura to get the gold, but I don't think her individual performance was as good as her team one. What I'm not very keen on is Totilas getting 10s for movements that really don't look like a 10. If everyone is graded fairly then the one who wins is just fine by me, I just feel that Totilas gets 10s because of who he is rather than the movement seen on the day. I think Laura's team performance would have beaten Totilas' indivudual one, but I do agree with the placings, just not the scores given (iyswim?!).


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## FrodoBeutlin (30 September 2010)

But has anyone seen the movement by movement marks? Because I am sure nobody can question the five 10s for Edward's riding.........nor the ones for the passage, or for the transitions.


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## Seahorse (30 September 2010)

I thought in the team test his transition from piaffe to passage and back again looked odd, I'm sure at one point he had both inside legs in the air at the same time, I might have to go back and have another look but he definitely did something strange with his legs! I think he got 10's all the same..


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## angelish (30 September 2010)

glosgirl said:



			I don't think my views are to do with me being english!  Obv I would have liked Laura to get the gold, but I don't think her individual performance was as good as her team one. What I'm not very keen on is Totilas getting 10s for movements that really don't look like a 10. If everyone is graded fairly then the one who wins is just fine by me, I just feel that Totilas gets 10s because of who he is rather than the movement seen on the day. I think Laura's team performance would have beaten Totilas' indivudual one, but I do agree with the placings, just not the scores given (iyswim?!).
		
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i agree , i didn't think he deserved some of them 10s (but i am only qualfied to judge prilim & novice )
i didn't mean your views in particular ,its just some people seem to be very anti totilas and are getting there knickers in a twist about it


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## Seahorse (30 September 2010)

Also, he seems to be very weak and dipped behind the saddle, just an observation


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## 3Beasties (30 September 2010)

As someone who knows absolutely nothing about dressage I am pleased that I am not the only one who didn't think his test was perfect, I think Laura and her Chestnut did a much nicer test and really should have got the Gold.


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## JenHunt (30 September 2010)

Seahorse said:



			yes I agree with you, I'm not a big fan of the horse at all, he moves oddly and you're right he doesn't track up! The other day he was moving in the piaffe and not stepping evenly behind in the passage as Carl said when he was commenting and he got 10's and 9's for that!!
		
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ditto this ^^



R2R said:



			Yep agreed. I dont like dressage (much) but what I will say is his popularity is doing amazing things for the sport AND he is very VERY striking...I wonder if Horjis was black if he would start beating him?!!
		
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I would agree with this too! ^^



Luci07 said:



			I think there could well be an element now of "its Totillas" so he will get marked higher
		
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OH thought that last night too...

IMO - his paces aren't correct. several people will say that's rubbish, but I was always taught that a correct extension is one where the canon bones stay parallel, and MT's don't.. he over extends the front leg compared to the work the hind is doing.  He doesn't really step when doing piaffe, and his extended canter just sped up rather than actually extended IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I like the was Edward Gal rides, but I do wonder how he'll do without MT putting him in the spotlight.

ETA - agree with 3beasties above too!


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## Apercrumbie (30 September 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL0S5re7sls&feature=related

I think he looks much better here.  His trot is much freer.


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## oldvic (30 September 2010)

You are so right FrodoBeutlin. Totilas is very classically correct in piaffe and passage, he has fabulous rhythm and impulsion and he is so supple and elastic. His rider has a lovely forward feeling contact and you don't see him pulling back which shows the self carriage. Of course his paces are more expressive than when he was 5. As the horse becomes more trained he takes more weight onto his hind legs which lightens the forehand and frees the shoulders. The more this happens, the more "out infront of the rider" the horse becomes. That is the idea of dressage. Like any being there are some relative weaknesses such as the changes but they are improving and are still fairly high scoring because of the suppleness, contact, etc. Laura's horse is also fabulous but there is weakness in the changes too. That doesn't mean they can't still be fairly good (7).

Stephen Clarke is the judge from GB. Not only is he one of the most respected judges in the world, but his integrity is second to none and he is not afraid of others' opinions. He certainly would not "name judge". How many of those who are critical of the judges know how many marks there are and where they come. This can make a huge difference to a result and from a television camera we do not have the view that the judge has so other factor like straightness are not so noticeable. Judging is not black and white like show jumping. The Spanish horse performed the movements with a lot of energy and enthusiasm but sometimes the regularity and balance was lost and some tension led to lack of suppleness. 

I agree that Totilas had some tension in the team test which allowed Laura to get close but he was very good in the special. Alf did his better test in the Grand Prix although the special had some real highlights. For those that say Totilas automatically wins, he has been beaten by Parcival this year.


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## Shilasdair (30 September 2010)

Why isn't there a crying-with-laughter smilie when you need one?! 
And how can anyone seriously be arguing that Laura's test, great though it was, was better than Edward Gal's?
S 

PS I'm only using first name terms because I can't spell Laura's name!


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## brighteyes (30 September 2010)

I think what appears to be happening as the horse 'develops' is the naturally expressive paces are becoming almost grotesquely exaggerated, leading to a very bizarre looking range of gaits.  I do think his passage is about the best of his paces but the rest are now looking very odd.  I far preferred Laura's horse's consistency throughout the test and I think the caricature which Totilas seems to have become is a sad result of his willingness and natural ability to perform.  It isn't his fault he has been turned into this.  I don't dislike him - how can you dislike such a trier - although I wouldn't want him as a sire.


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## brighteyes (30 September 2010)

Shilasdair said:



			Why isn't there a crying-with-laughter smilie when you need one?! 
And how can anyone seriously be arguing that Laura's test, great though it was, was better than Edward Gal's?
S 

PS I'm only using first name terms because I can't spell Laura's name! 

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Where's the smiley with it's eyebrows a few inches above its head?!


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## Jesstickle (30 September 2010)

I thought they both looked very lovely.  But then I know nothing about such things. 

All I could notice in Laura's test (again 1st name as her 2nd is too hard to spell  ) was that I could constantly see her hand moving and pulling at his head. Didn't anyone else see that. Don't suppose it effects the test much but it wasn't pretty. I sort of got transfixed by it and couldn't see anything else!

Think I have learned more about stressage from this thread than I have in the last 25 years of being around horses. That's shameful isn't it?!

Thought it was lovely that she warmed the horse down herself though rather than palming him off to someone else.


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## burtie (30 September 2010)

Just a comment on the warming down, I have attended a few international events and watched the warm up/warm down and in all cases all the riders warmed there horses down themselves afterwards by trotting (rising) and walking around long and low after the test, this is the norm you just don't normally see it on camera!


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## amandaco2 (30 September 2010)

no way expert or anything
IMHO i think the issue is he cant really physically match the front to the back.
i mean he is just SO free in the shoulder and amazingly extravagant in front, whereas his hind legs are limited by the fact his body is the way!
his submission, suppleness, rhythm and relaxation are just amazing for a horse that moves so much.....
and his piaffe and passage are just awesome!and the transitions are so so good.
for me his real weakness are the changes. BUT he is only 10 so im sure he will improve with them. 
i think he is an amazing horse


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## Booboos (30 September 2010)

Shilasdair said:



			Why isn't there a crying-with-laughter smilie when you need one?! 
And how can anyone seriously be arguing that Laura's test, great though it was, was better than Edward Gal's?
S 

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Exactly what she said ^^^^^I have been trying to say this all day long on this thread and deleting my responses because they contained too many swear words, but thank you Shilasdair!


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## Onyxia (30 September 2010)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			Of course Angelish!! It's only in the UK that I've read people saying Alf should have got the gold   I think it's natural, a bit of nationalism is inevitable!
		
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Sore losers? US? 
I think it is a huge shame that so many are obcessing about her not getting the gold when what she did get is an achievement and a half for the brits.....


As for Totilas,I am very much in two minds about him.
I love watching him perform although some bits make me wince a little   However I don't know enough about GP movements to commet on the correctness-I will allways be looking through a fans eyes.
What we want to see is not always the same as what the judge will see.
What we value is not always what the international judge is looking for.


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## Sanolly (30 September 2010)

amymay said:



			It was very interesting to see a test done by him as a five year old - posted in CL a short time ago.

What a completely different horse he looked.  Actually very attractive and normal looking........  And moving far more correctly.
		
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Do you have a link?


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## toffeesmarty (30 September 2010)

I have been lucky enough to have seen Totilas at both Olympia and Windsor. The atmosphere he creates during his Kur is breathtaking and is unique. 
Is it technically and ergonomically correct? No.
Would he move like he does if he had been trained in the UK? Probably not.
Is he therefore a product of nurture or nature? 
If nurture, I hope he doesnt break to soon.


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## rowy (1 October 2010)

I agree that his back end looks hindered by his front end. i think its a case of would the judges prefer a less extravagant horse with more accurate paces or a more extravagant horse with a little hindered over track. 
I also think his walk is little to be desired, though looking at some of the others there walk isn;t great with little overtrack? dont know whats up with that!
My favourite (other than alf of couse) was a little andulsian horse for the spanish team (dont know what name) he just looked expressive without lookiing unnatural and really lovely flowing paces and looked really comfortable doing everything! 
i think some of it with totilas is that he is SO different to everything else, people and judges dont really know what to do with it but it makes you go wow so they assume it is good


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## Lobelia_Overhill (1 October 2010)

Totilas warming up

http://www.topiberian.com/es/galeria-de-videos?task=videodirectlink&id=1486

looks a lot different there!


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## Holly Hocks (1 October 2010)

Gosh, we're all experts on here aren't we???  How many of you actually ride at this top level and have the skills to bring on a horse to this level?  I most certainly don't, and even if I had lessons every day on a top class horse, I never will have and therefore don't feel that I am qualified to comment........ (but I think I did prefer Laura's test just visually nicer to watch).  Why not just enjoy it for the spectator sport that it is rather than criticising the person who won???


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## Ozzie (1 October 2010)

I adore dressage - I don't know enough to have a proper opinion, but I watched his record breaking test on youtube, and was just expecting something a little 'more'...


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## martlin (1 October 2010)

Rebelzmum said:



			Gosh, we're all experts on here aren't we???  How many of you actually ride at this top level and have the skills to bring on a horse to this level?  I most certainly don't, and even if I had lessons every day on a top class horse, I never will have and therefore don't feel that I am qualified to comment........ (but I think I did prefer Laura's test just visually nicer to watch).  Why not just enjoy it for the spectator sport that it is rather than criticising the person who won???
		
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I'm sorry, but it's the same old ''you don't ride at that level so you can't have an opinion'' **** - this just doesn't wash. It doesn't work like that... Majority of men I know are rubbish at football, that doesn't stop them criticising teams and players, and neither should it.
I know only mothers can possibly have any opinion on children/parenting as well


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## lynds81 (1 October 2010)

HappyHorses:) said:



			^^ agreed^^

We have all, I'm sure, seen a dressage test that shouldn't have won a class but did because of who is riding. It's a shame but it does happen through all levels 

I enjoy watching Totilas and Ed-G because they do look like a great partnership. I agree I personally don't think he tracks up very well and needs to improve on his changes but maybe thats because he has come up to this level at quite a young age and in doing so lost some of the naturalness (not a word?!) of the paces he showed as a 5 year old.
Everyone has a right to their point of view, I for one always think Lauras horses look very heavy in her hands, but to be world champion at such a young age must mean there is something special about him. 

Each to their own tho. If we all liked the same thing the world would be pretty dull. 

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I thought it was just me that couldn't stop looking at Laura's hands...

Still, mustn't say too much cus I sure couldn't do any better!!


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## SirenaXVI (2 October 2010)

Rebelzmum said:



			Gosh, we're all experts on here aren't we???  How many of you actually ride at this top level and have the skills to bring on a horse to this level?  I most certainly don't, and even if I had lessons every day on a top class horse, I never will have and therefore don't feel that I am qualified to comment........ (but I think I did prefer Laura's test just visually nicer to watch).  Why not just enjoy it for the spectator sport that it is rather than criticising the person who won???
		
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Actually, it IS a concern for anyone who competes dressage, we all work to a scale of training, the scale is intended to help the horse become a better athlete and to live a longer working life.  If we see something that is not correct winning at top level we are of course allowed to question.

Ed Gal trains/ed with Anky VG, she is an advocate for Rolkur, every single horse trained this way seems to have this extravagant movement in front with very little following through from behind, I have never ever liked the way AVG's horses go, and, whilst I admire Totilas enormously, there is no getting away from the fact that he is obviously trained using Rolkur.


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## Seahorse (2 October 2010)

Rebelzmum said:



			Gosh, we're all experts on here aren't we???  How many of you actually ride at this top level and have the skills to bring on a horse to this level?  I most certainly don't, and even if I had lessons every day on a top class horse, I never will have and therefore don't feel that I am qualified to comment........ (but I think I did prefer Laura's test just visually nicer to watch).  Why not just enjoy it for the spectator sport that it is rather than criticising the person who won???
		
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Actually I have ridden Grand Prix dressage horses and worked for an Olympic Dressage rider helping her bring on her youngsters, I learnt loads from her and since then have become very involved in classical dressage, learning from Charles de Kunffy and Dr Gerd Herschmann


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## vicky86 (2 October 2010)

Thanks for that Lobelia_Overhill he looks great - as usual. I for one love him and do not have any desire to pick him apart. I appreciate everyone has their own opinions but to me he is a wonder horse.


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## Hollycat (2 October 2010)

I really really WANT to like the way this horse performs as I am a big trakehner fan and of course he is half trakehner   However I do not like his trot movement as ridden in GP tests. This in particular irritates me but it is more nurture than nature.  However, I am soured of modern competition dressage and what is considered important.

What I do like about him.  He puts EVERYTHING into his peformance for his rider.  IMHO this is where the extravegant legs come from in trot (together with his training).  He is trying hard to please and putting his energy and athleticism into it big time hence the legs fly higher and higher just because they can.  Some showjumpers buck with exhuberance - his legs just fly upwards.

As a sire for a foal to keep I would never pay the current  £5000 stud fee. To sell maybe I would as already foals are selling in utero for high prices I have heard.  Currently and for a long time to come he will be unproven as a sire of competition horses.  He was initially  rejected KWPN and I would want to know why. If it was for some defect in confirmation/movement then he may not produce 'pretty' show winners but I would think his name will carry prices for a long time.  However that will only go so far if lots of foals are average movers. And of course compared to Totilas they will be average as his extreme movement is trained and mum is going to contribute half of the equation. Will buyers remember this and envisage that  in 6 years time this foal hopefully has the genetic potential in tems of athleticism and rideability to move just like his dad or will they look at a nice, athletic youngster and be dissapointed that he is not already lifting his legs to his chin?

I think there are lots of stallions that reliably pass on athleticism and great movement that are WAY below £5000 stud fee.  What would make me use Totiilas as a stallion for my own riding horse would be if he passes on what looks like a huge desire to please his rider.  However whether he has rideability suitable for an amatuer is another thing yet again!


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## MotherOfChickens (2 October 2010)

don't like Laura B's hands either but I'm not sure that he's just such a big moving horse that the overall picture is quite ugly or if she's/he's very strong in the hand. I find alot of top level competetive dressage quite ugly these days, still I seem to be in a minority.

I liked Fuego bestest  but then I like Iberians, alot of people don't (stoopid people mainly  )

I think Totilas has amazing passage and piaffe and he is apparently incredible in the flesh. he doesnt do alot for me but I like how he seems calm and relaxed when compared to some other top horses. if he has been rolkured then I don't think the end justifies the means however good he is.


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## tallyho! (2 October 2010)

SirenaXVI said:



			Actually, it IS a concern for anyone who competes dressage, we all work to a scale of training, the scale is intended to help the horse become a better athlete and to live a longer working life.  If we see something that is not correct winning at top level we are of course allowed to question.

Ed Gal trains/ed with Anky VG, she is an advocate for Rolkur, every single horse trained this way seems to have this extravagant movement in front with very little following through from behind, I have never ever liked the way AVG's horses go, and, whilst I admire Totilas enormously, there is no getting away from the fact that he is obviously trained using Rolkur.
		
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^^what she said^^

Haven't followed top dressage for a while but my fave used to be Blue Hors Matine RIP. She was just gorgeous.


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## lauradean (2 October 2010)

Fuego is spectacular, but so is Totilas. 

I found Totilas' winning freestyle from last night. I wish it were closer, but it looks beautiful to me. 
http://www.barnmice.com/video/totilas-freestyle-at-weg


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## Mearas (2 October 2010)

As the owner of an international dressage horse I am no longer involved in the competition world for the many reasons that have been discussed on this thread. Believe me this is only the 'tip of a very large iceburg'. In dressage I have met some of the most amazing people I will ever meet and some of the worst. 

I feel that I have advanced my dressage by now taking the classical route, as the compromises that needed to be made in the competition world were unacceptable for my horse and  myself. We are both very happy now, the feeling of happiness and satisfaction I have now is so much greater than I have had in the past. I also have an amazing trainer. I started the classical route then as I see it deviated to current competition methods and now I have returned to what I consider to be the only and very best way to ride.


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## asterid (2 October 2010)

Mearas said:



			As the owner of an international dressage horse I am no longer involved in the competition world for the many reasons that have been discussed on this thread. Believe me this is only the 'tip of a very large iceburg'. In dressage I have met some of the most amazing people I will ever meet and some of the worst. 

I feel that I have advanced my dressage by now taking the classical route, as the compromises that needed to be made in the competition world were unacceptable for my horse and  myself. We are both very happy now, the feeling of happiness and satisfaction I have now is so much greater than I have had in the past. I also have an amazing trainer. I started the classical route then as I see it deviated to current competition methods and now I have returned to what I consider to be the only and very best way to ride.
		
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^^^What Mearas said^^^^ I agree too. I ride classically and have a classical dressage trainer, whom I might add is hard to find. Modern dressage is not the same a classical, but am hoping that classical dressage will make a big comeback!


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## dominobrown (2 October 2010)

Wow I finally red the whole of this post!
Personally I find Totilas a bit short in the neck and not quite through behind. I also do think he is stunning to look at, and seems very obedient and willing so it very nice to watch. I do agree with a lot of you throughout this thread though.

But at the end of the day Edward Gal has trained the horse to WIN, which it does.
I think it is the judges we should be picking apart. I think a lot of judges become obesseed with the 'name'. A prefect example of this was a test Anky did a few years ago. It really annoyed me that the horse didn't HALT at the end of the test yet still won. If I was doing a prelim test but couldn't get my horse to halt what score would I get? If she couldn't get the horse to stand because it was so tense how is it realxed and obedient?

I might get shot for saying this, I don't know what yourr opinions are, but do you think dressage judges should have videos etc to judge from too, so they can see more angles (I know judes sit of different parts of the arena to do this and get different marks) but also have the ability to slow mo some movements???
I think flashy horse and movement can hide a multitude of sins as it distracts the judge!


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## madeleine1 (2 October 2010)

i love totilas but putting that aside for a second i think that if his hind legs worked more you would find something wrong with something else he did. u can say hes not one of the best in the world and i doubt the people working with him think hes perfect but they know hes very good.


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## Mearas (2 October 2010)

There is no doubt that Totillas is a beautiful, expressive, wonderful horse with a fabulous willing personality, but this is IMHO not what is being tested. What is being tested is his training, which from this thread would generally appear to have been accepted as incorrect. Just how much more wonderful expressive and beautiful would Totillas have been if he had been trained correctly?


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## Hollycat (2 October 2010)

Like astrid and mearas I am interested in classical dressage now and moving away from competition dressage. I love the feel of riding a well trained dressage horse and dancing in harmony with it. The feeling of passage is breathtaking. However lightness and harmony I don't feel are the way I need to train to win competitions where very different goals are in vouge. Perhaps as dominobrown says this is the fault of the judges or is it ultaimely the riders fault for letting the sport head this way? I have no idea.  I just know it is a fight I don't want to win or care about winning.  I'd rather ride at home and have fun.

I would love to have a ride on Totilas even though I am not mad about him.  I think he would be great fun as he looks soft and obedient and as long as not asked for maximum extravegance would prob be a nice ride. He would probably dump me as unworthy though


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## eahotson (2 October 2010)

I adore Totilas .


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## Mearas (2 October 2010)

eahotson said:



			I adore Totilas .
		
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I think many of us can agree he is a really endearing horse, but is his movement correct? Although this may seem unimportant when you see a pretty picture ultiimately it will be the difference between Totillas having a long career or potentially being seriously lame within a few years.


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## brighteyes (2 October 2010)

Just watched some footage of his freestyle - in the extended trot he looks like a spider...  The more I look at is, the worse it appears.


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## tallyho! (2 October 2010)

asterid said:



			^^^What Mearas said^^^^ I agree too. I ride classically and have a classical dressage trainer, whom I might add is hard to find. Modern dressage is not the same a classical, but am hoping that classical dressage will make a big comeback!
		
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Woo hoo! Me too, love classical (hence why I stopped following 'dressage'...)


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## Sillyoldfool (2 October 2010)

I was there to watch the GP Freestyle last night.  The crowd went absolutely wild for Fuego, but he looks a little like a trick pony, lovely but not true dressage.  The same could be said for Totilas, who won despite mistakes.  He does look as though he enjoys his work though and was completely relaxed throughout.  For pure dressage, Laura was by far the best. Mistral moves beautifully and is very correct - they should have won.


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## samiracle (3 October 2010)

I have just watched the video again of all 3 tests in the freestyle and cant help but think that MH should have wond followed by Fuego then T - I know nothing much about dressage but if the music is part of the show it was obvious how much more thought and planning had gone into Laura and the spanish riders tests rather than Edward Gals who was just doing a very nice test with some background music, whereas Alf and the spanish horse were working in time to the music - my completely unhorsey OH thought the same .....


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