# Working dogs in pet homes



## Moobli (31 March 2018)

Why do some people buy a pup from working lines/parents/lineage, do nothing with it and then wonder why they can't control it, it eats their furniture, barks at everything, pulls them off their feet, chases its tail constantly etc etc etc. 

It is an age old problem I am sure, but is at the forefront of my mind today as I have seen a couple of pups from a good working litter go into pet homes that are struggling with their energy levels and they appear to lack the experience/knowledge to be able to engage, stimulate and train their whirling dervishes.  One pup is constantly chasing his tail and another is already wearing an electric collar (at 16 weeks).  

The two litters of working border collies we have bred in the past 15 years were all sold to good working homes but I am sure there would have been no problems with experienced search & rescue, agility homes etc.  I am not sure how they would have fared in purely pet homes though.


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## skinnydipper (31 March 2018)

I am the first to admit I would not be able to fulfil the needs of a high drive/working lines dog.   I don't work my dogs and I don't participate in dog sports.  We, pet owners, need to know our limitations.  

You touched on something that concerns me - shock collars.

I know of people who use them and it appals me.  Woman with Beagle pup who zaps it because the dog has no recall.  Another who has a working lines mal and the owner cannot fulfil its needs, waste of an excellent dog.  Another is a collie who keeps running at other dogs and has bitten, the collar hasn't stopped her. What have these dogs learnt - exactly nothing or they wouldn't need to keep wearing the collar and getting zapped.  

The problem isn't lack of an electric shock any more than a headache is caused by lack of an aspirin.   The problem is an inadequate owner.

When I say I know of, these are not friends, just people I see when I am out and about


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## Amymay (31 March 2018)

Probably because they're cheap.

Why do breeders allow them to go to pet homes?


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## BBP (31 March 2018)

I thought this when researching to get my collie, and when reality checking myself as to if I could cope. The number of collies I saw on sites like pets4homes being rehomed at 3-18months was insane, all stating that they dont have the time to give him the exercise he deserves. It made me really sad. For Christs sake, research before you buy! Yes I have a collie and no Im not a working home, but I went for one that is not from sharp working lines like my old girl, I got help in my decision from a collie breeder and expert who is not linked to the breeder I went for, and you can be damn sure I got my life in order to make sure he gets the stimulation he deserves. And Im working my butt off learning how to train him. We are very active but I can only imagine the frustration of a collie in a home where it is walked once a day and gets limited training. My pup loves the training I am doing with him and learns so fast. But even my OH admitted he thought a collie was a collie and didnt know why I was being so careful in my choice. He would happily have gone for a high drive working dog without knowing what he was in for, and maybe would have ended up with a dog he couldnt manage, so he is quite happy I intervened.


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## MotherOfChickens (31 March 2018)

amymay said:



			Probably because they're cheap.

Why do breeders allow them to go to pet homes?
		
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depending on the breed, not all can go to working homes just as not all dogs can go to show homes. Mine wasn't a lot cheaper than a bench bred retriever. I fully admit that he keeps me busy  but god, never had a dog as brilliant. I'm not sure I would have another-in 10 or so years I may not have the energy but I wish I had discovered them 20 years ago.


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## splashgirl45 (31 March 2018)

i have had dogs all of my life and would never want a working dog as i know i wouldnt be able to give it the type of home it needs.  even when i was younger and alot more active i wouldnt be able to give it the stimulation it would need.   on a different note, i met some people today with a huge young mastiff which was on the lead and as soon as they saw my dogs they pulled the lead really tight and wouldnt let her even sniff noses with mine, i had put my little terrier on the lead as he is a bit overfriendly with other dogs..  the people were almost hysterical , and what i cant understand is why they would walk a dog in a busy park on easter sat!!! surely they must have expected other dogs to be there....


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## Clodagh (31 March 2018)

Trials bred labs and spaniels are another example. My brother owns my Tawny's sister and she keeps him busy - a pet home, and a fairly sofa orientated bunch at that. The eldest daughter now does flyball with her and they both love it and are doing really well. The breeder has sold dogs that are successful at canicross, agility and flyball, as well as mainly more 'normal' trialling or picking up homes. At least retrieving type breeds are happy carrying socks, sticks and balls. It is not so easy to keep a driven herding dog happy.
I do think there is nothing sadder than pet 'working type' border collies, who are just obsessed with cars, birds, moving things and are so uptight and anxious.


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## Clodagh (31 March 2018)

splashgirl45 said:



			i have had dogs all of my life and would never want a working dog as i know i wouldnt be able to give it the type of home it needs.  even when i was younger and alot more active i wouldnt be able to give it the stimulation it would need.   on a different note, i met some people today with a huge young mastiff which was on the lead and as soon as they saw my dogs they pulled the lead really tight and wouldnt let her even sniff noses with mine, i had put my little terrier on the lead as he is a bit overfriendly with other dogs..  the people were almost hysterical , and what i cant understand is why they would walk a dog in a busy park on easter sat!!! surely they must have expected other dogs to be there....
		
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That poor mastiff willend up being reactive, why don't people let them socialise?


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## Moobli (31 March 2018)

skinnydipper said:



			I am the first to admit I would not be able to fulfil the needs of a high drive/working lines dog.   I don't work my dogs and I don't participate in dog sports.  We, pet owners, need to know our limitations.  

You touched on something that concerns me - shock collars.

I know of people who use them and it appals me.  Woman with Beagle pup who zaps it because the dog has no recall.  Another who has a working lines mal and the owner cannot fulfil its needs, waste of an excellent dog.  Another is a collie who keeps running at other dogs and has bitten, the collar hasn't stopped her. What have these dogs learnt - exactly nothing or they wouldn't need to keep wearing the collar and getting zapped.  

The problem isn't lack of an electric shock any more than a headache is caused by lack of an aspirin.   The problem is an inadequate owner.

When I say I know of, these are not friends, just people I see when I am out and about
		
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I totally agree that shock collars are unnecessary and a lazy way of training - not to mention the possible damage using such a device is likely to be having on the essential bond between handler and dog.


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## Moobli (31 March 2018)

amymay said:



			Probably because cheap.

Why do breeders allow them to go to pet homes?
		
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Not all working bred pups are cheaper than their show/pet bred counterparts.

As to the second question, there could be a wide variety of reasons I guess.  Some might be that the prospective owners lied about their experience or what they were going to do with the dog (I have seen that happen a few times), some breeders simply don't care where their pups end up, and some might feel an active pet home would be ok.  There will be a variety of temperaments and drives in all litters and not all working bred pups will be suitable for working homes, but then I feel the breeder should be striving for the best possible non-working home (ie the owner taking part in some other activity or being particularly active).  

Less dogs being bred, more discerning breeders and owners doing research into a suitable breed for their lifestyle would be the ideal.


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## Moobli (31 March 2018)

BBP said:



			I thought this when researching to get my collie, and when reality checking myself as to if I could cope. The number of collies I saw on sites like pets4homes being rehomed at 3-18months was insane, all stating that they &#8216;don&#8217;t have the time to give him the exercise he deserves&#8217;. It made me really sad. For Christ&#8217;s sake, research before you buy! Yes I have a collie and no I&#8217;m not a working home, but I went for one that is not from sharp working lines like my old girl, I got help in my decision from a collie breeder and expert who is not linked to the breeder I went for, and you can be damn sure I got my life in order to make sure he gets the stimulation he deserves. And I&#8217;m working my butt off learning how to train him. We are very active but I can only imagine the frustration of a collie in a home where it is walked once a day and gets limited training. My pup loves the training I am doing with him and learns so fast. But even my OH admitted he thought a collie was a collie and didn&#8217;t know why I was being so careful in my choice. He would happily have gone for a high drive working dog without knowing what he was in for, and maybe would have ended up with a dog he couldn&#8217;t manage, so he is quite happy I intervened.
		
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I certainly think education and owners doing their research would help.  As you say, your boyfriend and lots of other people don't even realise there are different lines within the same breed.


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## CorvusCorax (31 March 2018)

I don't think tail chasing is anything to do with working or show or pet lines, I've seen it in all, it's a weakness/compulsion and I've seen it working line dogs gone to active working homes and still develop it. It's a curse.

I agree breeders can be as culpable as purchasers. Working line litters should be booked before they are born and ideally even before the mating takes place IMO.
Scouting around for homes after the fact is part of the problem.


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## MissTyc (31 March 2018)

My pup is a "working dog" in that he's a farm-bred terrier from ratting parents ... I thought I would be fine because we have an active GSD x Rottie. OMG the difference; this pup (now 13 months) has no OFF button. when everyone is good and exhausted from doing scent training and tricks and agility and ball and play-fighting, we all slump down for a nap. GSD X is out for the count. Husband and I are out for the count. Pup sleeps 20 minutes then Piiiing: ready to go for Round 500. His arousal threshold is extremely low and it's taken it's toll on me, anxiety and lifestyle wise! Thankfully, we have had the best trainers in puppy class - my main trainer breeds and works collies, so she's given us spot-on advice from the very beginning. Because of this, the pup is a well-adjusted chap (mostly); he has his jobs which he loves and he has learnt to settle on command with a kong, but you can tell he's not happy about it. He'd rather be on the go go go.  The plus side of all this is that he's slept through the night since Day 1 lol. Next time, I want a big floofball pet.


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## Karran (31 March 2018)

I have no papers for Mrs Spaniel so I don't know if I got lucky with her lines or what. I do know that she was up for grabs as she had been bought as a lap dog and when their marriage broke up, neither wanted her as they couldn't cope with her energy at 11 months old.
I had severe doubts about if I could cope, working full time, active dog in London etc, but overruled by my ex and brother as we all lived together.

I think she's a pretty easy laidback dog really, but friends that I walk with look in horror when I tell them I make time for two hours a day during the week, that I do double that on weekends.
I reckon the minimum I can get away with is an hour and a half otherwise she attacks the post, digs the carpet, eats shoes and is a whirling monster to live with because she needs an outlet for the energy. I have no doubts that I would struggle if I wasn't so lucky with three parks within walking distance, without the yard to take her too, so she can hack out with me and the horses and flyball has been an absolute godsend tiring her physically and mentally.

Regularly during the week I walk in a field and have made friends there with people with beagles, other WCS, BC's, even cockerpoo's who daren't let them off leads, complain tirelessly about them and their "quirky" ways but only take them for a 20 minute walk on a sunny day once a day, when I suggest taking them to other parks for a change of scenery, as I firmly believe dogs get bored just doing the same walk day in, day out or taking them out more often, they rapidly find excuses not to do so.
They compliment me on Mrs Spaniel being a wellbehaved little dog (although she can have her brat moments) but they don't realise the work that I do to make both our lives easier.


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## skinnydipper (31 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			I don't think tail chasing is anything to do with working or show or pet lines, I've seen it in all, it's a weakness/compulsion and I've seen it working line dogs gone to active working homes and still develop it. It's a curse.
		
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Do you think it is related to stress or over excitement?  One of my dogs was spinning/tail chasing constantly in the rescue environment (she would also express her anal glands).  Once she settled here it stopped, it didn't take very long at all as I remember though it was about 12 years or so ago so the memory is not fresh.


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## DabDab (31 March 2018)

Unfortunately I think the other reason people buy dogs from working lines is that there seems to be a certain amount of status (not the best word but can't think of a better one) associated with it.

I think it's quite a regional thing round here (as I didn't notice it before coming here), to own a cocker/springer spaniel or lab from working lines so you can proudly declare this to all acquaintances.

I did have a kelpie as a pet and he was very good (though very bouncy), and because he had such great recall and walk to heel (or hoof ), he was very easy to give plenty of exercise to. He would do at least 10 miles to my 1 - it's so nice being able to let a dog run because you know you can always get them back at the drop of a hat. Trying to get him to eat more than once every other day was a mission though


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## CorvusCorax (31 March 2018)

Absolutely. And it should tell you how the dog deals with stress. And if that is the way it deals with stress, I wouldn't consider it as a working or breeding animal.

(Thats for SD, forgot to quote).


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## PapaverFollis (31 March 2018)

My two are both working bred but I either got lucky or did something right because they are both just as happy having a duvet day as they are a day out on the fells! To be honest though they are rising 8 and just turned 6 and we did a lot more with them, agility, regular fell running etc, when they were juveniles! They are still fit and active now (vet is always full of praise about how fit they are which makes me wonder how little other people must do with their dogs!) But they don't get hours every day.


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## maisie06 (31 March 2018)

I was lucky enough to be given my WCS, his breeder was let down by a prospective owner at the last minute...I wasn't going to have anymore dogs after my terrier but there was something special about this little guy.

I had never had a gundog before, although I was impressed by the demos at the local game fair...TBH I never thought I could ever train a dog like that! When I got Billy I took him to the village hall type puppy classes and we did ok but I wasn't totally happy as it was, to me all about bribing the dog with food. I was under no illusion that he was a working dog that needed his mind occupying, we tried scent classes but he (and I ) got bored as the classes were big and we only got a couple of goes in the hour.

The lady who owns his dad put me in touch with a great gundog trainer and we haven't looked back...it's been hard work and at times I have despaired and at other times have been mega proud of how far we have come! Even if I don't go to a proper shoot I can still "work" him, I hide dummies in hedgelines, send him for retrieves, have him flushing birds on the farm, he's even picked up on pigeon when the guys were doing some pest control on the crops, he picks up feather and fur and we are having fun and he's doing what he was bred for. I love watching him hunt!

He is essentially a pet, he lives in the house. I am lucky he has an off switch and hasn't destroyed anything! I can get out and enjoy long walks with him, but he needs a serious amount of mental stimulation to keep him calm, gundog training does that nicely. I train on walks, sit, stay, memory retrieve etc.


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## Wheels (31 March 2018)

Does it depend on the breed and / or lines maybe?  My GSPs are all from working lines but they would be perfectly sane and sensible as pets as long as they had sufficient exercise. 

We bred a litter two years ago, some went to working homes, some as pets.  They are all athletic dogs for sure and we made sure the homes were active but didn't feel the need for them all to go to be workers.  

4 went to working homes, we kept one and he will be worked, the other 2 went to families and go out as running / cycling companions on a daily basis.


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## Cinnamontoast (31 March 2018)

Didnt we have this question discussed really recently? 

Brig (big dog, the 15 yr old) is from working lines. He has been ridiculously easy, minor teenage rebellion which was easily resolved by going back to basics. We used to do epic walks, he was never trained as a gundog. He likes dummies if were training the others, ignores balls. His brother was equally easy.

The two pet bred need half an hour of training and being made to think then are angels. 

Looking at a mate who has two wcs and two springers, I know she does similar, occasionally more. I know some dogs/lines are hotter than others. Maybe weve both been lucky. 

Ill be researching working lines for the next two, I would not get pet bred types again. I dont think its necessarily true that working lines shouldnt go to pet homes or that theylll be a trauma. Given the average size of a springer litter, I think it might be hard to find working homes for all of them. I agree that breeders ought to consider new homes more carefully sometimes.


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## bonny (31 March 2018)

I agree with Cinnamontoast, I don&#8217;t think if the dog is pet or working lines has much to do with anything. Certain breeds shouldn&#8217;t be in pet homes, but that&#8217;s another argument. I have had working collies all my life and never had a problem with any of them. I wouldn&#8217;t get any other dog and to say I shouldn&#8217;t have a working collie is just wrong. Bring them up right and they are the best breed of dog imo. Mine have never had a treat, never learnt tricks and are never a hassle to me or anyone else.


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## CorvusCorax (31 March 2018)

To me the clue is in the name...working bred, working line etc etc. Bred to do a job. Probably not going to be happy with a poddle around the block once a day.

Obviously there will be breed variations and obviously not all will be cut out for that job. 
In my dog's litter, one of them had no drive at all and couldn't get past a basic test on a number of attempts. 

For me there's a wider debate about terminology...working bred, working type, working line etc. I know dogs described as 'working line' that are born from one, two or even three generations of dogs that haven't worked themselves, haven't got a qualification etc...you could call them dogs of working heritage because of their shape or colour etc, but if they haven't been tested or qualified or are out in the fields or on streets, are they truly 'working' dogs?
Saturday night musings lol.


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## bonny (31 March 2018)

Aren&#8217;t all dogs originally developed with a job in mind, even if it as just to be a lap dog ?


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## Cinnamontoast (31 March 2018)

bonny said:



			never learnt tricks and are never a hassle to me or anyone else.
		
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Something upon which I was musing today. None of mine have ever been taught &#8216;tricks&#8217;, yet both of the youngsters insist on batting me with their paws and clutching my arm like they&#8217;re trying to give a paw. Weird.


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## CorvusCorax (31 March 2018)

By that token, is a lapdog, a working dog?


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## bonny (31 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			By that token, is a lapdog, a working dog?
		
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Guess so, it was bred to do a job !


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## bonny (31 March 2018)

cinnamontoast said:



			Something upon which I was musing today. None of mine have ever been taught &#8216;tricks&#8217;, yet both of the youngsters insist on batting me with their paws and clutching my arm like they&#8217;re trying to give a paw. Weird.
		
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Mine does that too, I guess they learn themselves they get attention that way, mine will sit for ages gently batting me with a paw till I give in.


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## CorvusCorax (31 March 2018)

So all dogs are working dogs then, got it


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## Cinnamontoast (31 March 2018)

Dunno, my definition of working is that they actually work eg spring game, retrieve, primarily hunting/herding related, but I guess working also encompasses PAT dog, guide dog. 

I suppose being a lap dog is more of a role than a job. Weren&#8217;t Tibetan spaniels (the little things) and chins etc bred to keep hands warm inside a muff back in the day?

Providing companionship=job/role?


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## conniegirl (1 April 2018)

I had to leave several beagle owners groups on Facebook as I just wanted to slap a lot of them and tell them to walk thier damn dogs and teach it some manners! So many utterly frustrated dogs tearing houses and gardens apart and owners bemoaning the fact. When asked how much exercise and what it&#8217;s fed, the poor thing is invariably fed something totally unsuitable and gets less than an hours walks once a day! And god forbid that you suggest letting the dog off the lead without solid 6 ft fences round the place and a 20 man retrieval team as the poor dog has no recall. &#8220;It&#8217;s a beagle&#8221; is not a good excuse for anything.

Invariably I get told I just got lucky with my dog, but no we didn&#8217;t! I just give him exercise and decent food. Well my husband I said currently the one walking him as I&#8217;m out of action but he gets a minimum of half an hour every morning and then an absolute minimum of an hour and a half walk in the afternoon, most of it off the lead, so he does 4x the distance my husband does. He also gets about 30 mins of &#8220;play&#8221; after his walk where we actively engage his brain and reenforce his training. During the day he is left alone in the house, he has free run of the house but spends 99% of his time asleep on the sofa and I have never worried about coming home to anything being shredded or anything other than a dog asleep on the sofa!
He also has very good recall so I don&#8217;t worry about letting him off the lead, infact anyone he knows can recall him with ease (he is a little wary of strange men but he will still come to call he just stays slightly out of arms reach of them) 

When I initially damaged my ankle, the ambulance staff/police had to force entry to the house and Jezza was easily controlled by my voice alone to make it safe for the ambulance staff to enter. we then had a week where I was in and out of hospital my dog didn&#8217;t get much in the way of exercise and my god did it show in his behaviour.

The second time I did my ankle we were on the beach with 5 children, thier mother (my sister in law) and 2 other dogs. Obviously with me screaming and passing out in pain my husbands first concern was dealing with me/ambulances etc, meanwhile my 7 year old niece was left in charge of finding, recalling and looking after Jezza whilst my SIL wrangled her own dogs and the other (less than obedient) children. I&#8217;m very pleased to say as soon as she recalled him in more than a whisper (bless her she is a lovely child but if he can&#8217;t hear the recall he won&#8217;t know to come back) he came back to her, stood beautifully whilst she put his harness on (took her several attempts) and then sat at her heel whilst everything was going on. A stiff breeze would knock her over so he very definitely did not pull or take the pee whilst going back to the car.

I have had one of our golden retrieveers bring back a live duck from the flooded back garden, he had done a little bit of gundog training but he was not the type to put anymore effort into anything then he absolute had to, lovely dog but a bit dim. His instincts obviously kicked in there!
I&#8217;ve also had a failed guide dog (another golden retriever) who loved his work in old people&#8217;s homes which consisted of sitting on people&#8217;s feet with his back to them to be petted!
Finally we also had one lovely Goldie who my father started training for mountain rescue (his energy needed channeling into something) and he loved it!

Working breeds can be fine in pet homes but only if fed, exercised and trained appropriately.


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## CorvusCorax (1 April 2018)

cinnamontoast said:



			Dunno, my definition of working is that they actually work eg spring game, retrieve, primarily hunting/herding related, but I guess working also encompasses PAT dog, guide dog. 

I suppose being a lap dog is more of a role than a job. Werent Tibetan spaniels (the little things) and chins etc bred to keep hands warm inside a muff back in the day?

Providing companionship=job/role?
		
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That's the thing, we all have different definitions don't we. When I say working dog I'm thinking of something different again and some people would say my dog isn't a working dog, he's a sporting dog.
For me he does (and is qualified in) what he was bred to do.

I wouldn't dream.of keeping a dog on a yard 24/7 to ward off intruders but I suppose that is a 'job' and some people would refer to that as a working dog.


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## Moobli (1 April 2018)

skinnydipper said:



			Do you think it is related to stress or over excitement?  One of my dogs was spinning/tail chasing constantly in the rescue environment (she would also express her anal glands).  Once she settled here it stopped, it didn't take very long at all as I remember though it was about 12 years or so ago so the memory is not fresh.
		
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We had a shepherd brought into rescue as an unscrupulous breeder had sold her a dog from working lines and she was disabled and lived in a third floor flat.  The bitch started chasing her tail and the owner actually encouraged her as she thought it was giving her stimulation and exercise.  It took a long time and for a trained professional to stop the behaviour and for a long time afterwards she would start it again if she was stressed, upset or boredom had set in.  Very distressing to see.


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## Moobli (1 April 2018)

maisie06 said:



			I was lucky enough to be given my WCS, his breeder was let down by a prospective owner at the last minute...I wasn't going to have anymore dogs after my terrier but there was something special about this little guy.

I had never had a gundog before, although I was impressed by the demos at the local game fair...TBH I never thought I could ever train a dog like that! When I got Billy I took him to the village hall type puppy classes and we did ok but I wasn't totally happy as it was, to me all about bribing the dog with food. I was under no illusion that he was a working dog that needed his mind occupying, we tried scent classes but he (and I ) got bored as the classes were big and we only got a couple of goes in the hour.

The lady who owns his dad put me in touch with a great gundog trainer and we haven't looked back...it's been hard work and at times I have despaired and at other times have been mega proud of how far we have come! Even if I don't go to a proper shoot I can still "work" him, I hide dummies in hedgelines, send him for retrieves, have him flushing birds on the farm, he's even picked up on pigeon when the guys were doing some pest control on the crops, he picks up feather and fur and we are having fun and he's doing what he was bred for. I love watching him hunt!

He is essentially a pet, he lives in the house. I am lucky he has an off switch and hasn't destroyed anything! I can get out and enjoy long walks with him, but he needs a serious amount of mental stimulation to keep him calm, gundog training does that nicely. I train on walks, sit, stay, memory retrieve etc.
		
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Your story is exactly what I was getting at when I originally posted.  Yes working bred dogs can of course live happily in non working homes but it is all about the effort put in to ensure the dog (if highly driven) has an outlet for their energy and inherent instincts.  Generations of selective breeding can't be denied but given the right activities, exercise and companionship a work bred dog can flourish in a pet home.


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## Moobli (1 April 2018)

Wheels said:



			Does it depend on the breed and / or lines maybe?  My GSPs are all from working lines but they would be perfectly sane and sensible as pets as long as they had sufficient exercise. 

We bred a litter two years ago, some went to working homes, some as pets.  They are all athletic dogs for sure and we made sure the homes were active but didn't feel the need for them all to go to be workers.  

4 went to working homes, we kept one and he will be worked, the other 2 went to families and go out as running / cycling companions on a daily basis.
		
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Breed, lines and individuals all make a difference.   I have a working line GSD who is also mostly a companion, as well as farm dog, watch dog, child's play mate and guardian.  He accompanies me on my jobs around the farm daily and we also trained for working trials, tracking, scentwork and dabbled in agility.  With any dog it is about giving them enough to do and generally selective breeding over many generations has ensured working bred dogs need a little more than those breeds or lines that haven't specifically been bred for work.


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## Moobli (1 April 2018)

bonny said:



			I agree with Cinnamontoast, I dont think if the dog is pet or working lines has much to do with anything. Certain breeds shouldnt be in pet homes, but thats another argument. I have had working collies all my life and never had a problem with any of them. I wouldnt get any other dog and to say I shouldnt have a working collie is just wrong. Bring them up right and they are the best breed of dog imo. Mine have never had a treat, never learnt tricks and are never a hassle to me or anyone else.
		
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What breeds do you feel shouldn't be in pet homes?  I personally think whether a dog is pet or working lines does have a substantial bearing on the type of dog you choose, but each to their own.  I don't know if your comment is specifically aimed at me but I never said that working bred collies should never be in pet homes, but that we chose to sell our pups to good working and/or sheepdog trialling homes.  When you only have two litters in 15 years you can be choosy.  I definitely wouldn't rule out an active pet home but see far too many clueless owners with collies that simply don't have an outlet for their energies and instincts.


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## Moobli (1 April 2018)

cinnamontoast said:



			Dunno, my definition of working is that they actually work eg spring game, retrieve, primarily hunting/herding related, but I guess working also encompasses PAT dog, guide dog. 

I suppose being a lap dog is more of a role than a job. Weren&#8217;t Tibetan spaniels (the little things) and chins etc bred to keep hands warm inside a muff back in the day?

Providing companionship=job/role?
		
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Everyone seems to have a different definition.  A working dog to me is a dog with a job they do every day - such as our sheepdogs or my ex's general purpose police and firearms support dogs.  Working dogs can be gamekeepers gundogs, guide dogs, military dogs, search and rescue etc.  Then there are dogs from working lines which are from generations of working lineage, ie the type of dogs you often see in sports such as IPO, agility, working trials etc.  I don't consider lap dogs as working dogs.  They are companion dogs.


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## Moobli (1 April 2018)

conniegirl said:



			Working breeds can be fine in pet homes but only if fed, exercised and trained appropriately.
		
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Precisely!


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## meleeka (1 April 2018)

I had a collie that had originally come from a working farm. We got him at 4 months when a lot of the damage had been done. I wouldnt have a dog specifically bred for working again. I consider ours  an active home and although he lived a long and happy life, I can see he would have been far happier with a proper job to do. He could never be trusted with adult people he didnt know, although was great with kids. He was just a mixed up sort of character didnt find life as a pet easy.


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## Moobli (1 April 2018)

I was seriously contemplating a Malinois or Dutch Herder in the future but as I am not really interested in bite sports I am not sure I could do such a dog justice.  With GSDs being a jack of all trades, they suit my needs and lifestyle better and the working lines have more energy and better conformation for being on the go and outdoors with me much of the time.


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## skinnydipper (1 April 2018)

WorkingGSD said:



			We had a shepherd brought into rescue as an unscrupulous breeder had sold her a dog from working lines and she was disabled and lived in a third floor flat.  The bitch started chasing her tail and the owner actually encouraged her as she thought it was giving her stimulation and exercise.  It took a long time and for a trained professional to stop the behaviour and for a long time afterwards she would start it again if she was stressed, upset or boredom had set in.  Very distressing to see.
		
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I think I was lucky then that Kitty's problem resolved so quickly.  She was an EBTx.  At approx. 5 months old she had had 4 previous homes - returned as the previous owners thought she was OTT and naughty.  She had a warning on her cage.  She was extremely stressed in the kennel environment, that and being passed from pillar to post. 

In truth she was just a typical exuberant puppy who just needed an outlet for her energy and also to feel safe.   It was in fact over 13 years ago, not 12 that I got her, She died in January this year at nearly 14.  I was lucky that other people didn't want her as she was a fantastic dog who loved everybody and everything and I never had a problem with her.


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## Clodagh (1 April 2018)

WorkingGSD said:



			I was seriously contemplating a Malinois or Dutch Herder in the future but as I am not really interested in bite sports I am not sure I could do such a dog justice.  With GSDs being a jack of all trades, they suit my needs and lifestyle better and the working lines have more energy and better conformation for being on the go and outdoors with me much of the time.
		
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Could you use them like a collie? I presume the 'shepherd' bit is just that (originally). They do that collie stare thing, don't they? I find that stare very intimidating!


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## splashgirl45 (1 April 2018)

Clodagh said:



			That poor mastiff willend up being reactive, why don't people let them socialise?
		
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exactly my thoughts,  i am pretty good at reading dogs signals and she looked to be a friendly girl, nothing nasty could have happened as mine was on the lead...its such a shame as if she does get reactive she could do a lot of damage, she could easily kill my little terrier....


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## CorvusCorax (1 April 2018)

Clodagh said:



			Could you use them like a collie? I presume the 'shepherd' bit is just that (originally). They do that collie stare thing, don't they? I find that stare very intimidating!
		
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Lol. I wouldn't.


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## Moobli (1 April 2018)

Clodagh said:



			Could you use them like a collie? I presume the 'shepherd' bit is just that (originally). They do that collie stare thing, don't they? I find that stare very intimidating!
		
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They don't have the instincts of a collie (or the eye used for moving stock that many collies display).  Malis and Dutchies haven't worked sheep for generations - rather like GSDs - and so would be a liability rather than a help as they are much quicker to bite lol.  The assistant shepherd did have a Mali bitch that helped his collies out on occasion but she worked very like my GSD - very upright and with a lot more direction and training required, unlike a collie where the inherent instinct is just being harnessed and directed appropriately.


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## CorvusCorax (1 April 2018)

GSDs never worked like collies though.
The prey drive would be too high in most shepherd types these days unless you stick to actual herding lines, of which there are more in Germany.


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## Moobli (1 April 2018)

GSDs had a completely different job to collies, so a totally different working style.  They were required to "tend" sheep, to act as a living fence and to move in a straight line between the flock and crops, or keep them in a line behind the human shepherd when moving from one graze to another and out of the path of traffic.  

Strong prey drive is fine so long as it is controlled and harnessed appropriately.


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## CorvusCorax (1 April 2018)

Yep, I know


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## MotherOfChickens (1 April 2018)

as an aside, and probably only of interest to me, I saw a video of a smooth collie driving reindeer in Finland the other day-nice to see someone using one!


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## Moobli (1 April 2018)

MotherOfChickens said:



			as an aside, and probably only of interest to me, I saw a video of a smooth collie driving reindeer in Finland the other day-nice to see someone using one!
		
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I would like to see it!  I love watching any working dog.  I saw some fantastic shots (no video unfortunately) of rough collies working cattle in Brazil.


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## Cinnamontoast (1 April 2018)

Duh, totally forgot about sniffer/police dogs, bit dumb given the breed I have and the OH being a copper! 

I can think of some breeds used for fighting like the Pakistani one that I saw on the internet and there&#8217;s a guy over on petforums with 2 sarplaninacs who look a bit massive for an ordinary house, but other than any dog which has been trained to fight, I&#8217;m not sure there are any breeds that aren&#8217;t suitable for pet homes.


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## Tinkerbee (1 April 2018)

Some of the decisions might be a purely aesthetic choice as well. I prefer the look of working line cockers, springers, labs etc, compared to the amount of fluff/bulkier size of their show bred cousins. Possibly people just jump on the working vs show looks and don't think that they will be wired differently as well.


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## {97702} (1 April 2018)

For me, I don't think it matters whether a dog is from working lines or not - it matters what breed it is   Theoretically I have 4 'working' dogs as they are greyhounds and lurchers - the easiest one to live with is my ex-racing greyhound, who ran 150-odd races and had absolutely no knowledge of life outside a kennels/racing track when I got him.  

The young lurcher was a stray so of course I can't be sure she was bred to work, but she is a total live wire and full of energy - you have to learn how to manage them and work with what they do?


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## MyBoyChe (2 April 2018)

Interesting thread as I was only thinking about this yesterday.  In my efforts to find someone clean and dry to ride I wandered around some of the estates near MK and through a couple of the housing areas.  I met more than one person struggling to hold "husky" type breeds, I generalise as I am not sure exactly which specific breed they all were.  All of the ones I met were on extending leads and being walked around the houses, Im quite sure that all of them, if let loose, would have been gone in a minute, even on lead the owners were struggling to make them do anything they were being told (for told, read shouted at).  It just got me thinking about how many of these very cute, fluffy looking dogs are in pet homes and driving everyone slowly mad.  Pot, kettle, black you might say, I have 2 ESS and a JRT, all working bred.  They live in a normal house and are very much pets.  We are lucky to have some local off lead walks around proper farmland and they go out twice a day, I work part time and they are never left for more than 4 hours, when Im in the back door is nearly always open, even in bad weather.  Maybe Ive just been lucky but Ive never had any issues with any of them, they are all well socialised and can be trusted around any other dog or person (in as much as you ever can), they all have good recall, although I wouldnt put it to the test near livestock or main roads, that IMO would be asking for trouble.  They have never damaged the house or been destructive. They are 8,8 and 5 now so are slowing down to some degree, love going out but love the sofa as much.  If all goes to plan I wont have another springer, Im mid 50s now so in theory my next dog could be my last, or certainly into my 70s so it seems sensible to have something that in theory needs less stimulation or exercise to keep the little jack company.


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## MotherOfChickens (2 April 2018)

to be perfectly honest, in my experience (which is more than most but a long time ago) with huskies-is that they aren't like other dogs so I'm not sure I would lump them in with collies and WCS and the like which at least have trainability bred into them. The ones I knew were in a pack but were house dogs (along with the concrete based Colditz run outside). They were lovely, personable and friendly dogs but also somewhat aloof when compared to other breeds-their main interest was definitely their canine family-the human family were secondary. They didnt do commands other than mushing ones and it was nothing to do with intelligence, they just didnt 'do' that. blackcob I know has done admirably in agility etc with hers so maybe they can contradict me in this. 

they have a mental prey drive-I once saw them demolish a sofa and a heavy bookcase in about 2 mins going after a hapless field mouse-and there was nothing anyone could do about it. Both husky breeders I know gave up keeping other animals completely (cats, sheep). 

They are strong, they pull way more effectively than your average puller-on race days it was all I could do to hold the big wheel dog on the ground on his own (and at that point I worked in a TB spelling and breaking yard so was used to lively on the end of a line!) and letting go of one was a complete no no. nooone with huskies at that time would ever contemplate letting one off lead-not ever (when mushing the line after attaching to the rig goes around the musher-if you have to get off you tie them to a tree). And while they were mostly OK with other dogs, when they fought it wasnt like other dogs either-they really meant it and were very efficient.

I spent three years working them and racing them (badly!) on rigs-getting up at 5am every saturday and sunday to get to Thetford Forest to work them before it became full of other users. I adored them and was offered two free pups from the person I'd been helping but turned them down after a lot of soul searching as I couldnt commit to the time or the money of working them. 

25 years on and they are fashionable, so many shot for attacking sheep, so many almost certainly on the wrong diet and the wrong amount and type of work. they are amazing animals and it makes me so sad-seems to be more physical problems creeping in such as hypothyroidism. there's alot doing canicross and bikejor with people with the commitment to do them justice which is great but there are too many owned by utter muppets.


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## blackcob (2 April 2018)

I'm not gonna contradict you MoC, I think I referred to them on here recently as 'furry douchebags' and I stick by that. 

Mine go off-lead for perhaps 40 seconds at a time at agility shows. Thanks to busy rings and folk camping the night before the venues are devoid of anything to hunt, there's a hundred or more people around who'd grab a loose dog and though the rings aren't fenced the venues themselves generally are to a reasonable degree. 

I wouldn't risk it for a second anywhere else, not even on the exercise areas at shows, and our training is done indoors. Their prey drive is just too high, even after years of hard work and proving themselves capable of working at a reasonably high level at agility. Once that switch is flipped they are gone. Nothing to do with intelligence (they are scary clever!), nothing to do with training, everything to do with pleasing themselves. 

I love mine to pieces, don't regret the 'journey' we've had one bit and I will have more of them in the future but I should never have been able to just go out and buy one in the first place.


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## Laura2408 (2 April 2018)

I had a bad experience with this sort of thing.

We rescued a sick working line GSD puppy. From day one we had huge issues including nervous aggression and unpredictability with no off switch. 

We loved the dog and spend fortune on medication and behaviouralists but eventually had to admit defeat and PTS as the dog was not suitable as any sort of pet but was too nervous to work (we tried everything!) plus the medical problems meant rehoming was not an option. The dog had bitten or attempted to bite through a muzzle 3 people by this point so had no real choice in the matter. It was awful but I felt instant relief afterwards as it&#8217;s not easy to live with any dog like that! 

I now have another dog of the same breed but this one has come from a pet line of dogs bred to be pets and the change is unbelievable. She has an off switch, lives to please and best of all has a sound steady temperament. 

I don&#8217;t think people always appreciate the importance of genetics and early socialisation and that sometimes &#8216;loving&#8217; a dog can&#8217;t fix what genetics are telling it to do.


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## Clodagh (2 April 2018)

THere is a local man who runs with his huskies, he is a big (not fat, rugby type) guy and he has them on a harness attached to his belt. They look amazing, their ground covering lope looks effortless and tireless and I am quite sure at a human running pace they could go all day. They certainly are impressive, and I love blue eyes. 
Seeing as I am currently overfaced by a spaniel I would never, ever get one!

My OH - who is a complete saddo - watches this thing on Sky called 'Yukon Men'. They have a lot of huskies, but tbh they mainly don't look very husky like at all, to my eyes. Proper mutts! I wonder if they similarity to huskies would be comparable to the heavy horse on your average farm in Victorian times not looking like a modern Shire?


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## blackcob (2 April 2018)

I haven't seen the series Clodagh but they'll likely be Alaskan huskies, a type rather than a distinct breed (with many sub-types).


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## MotherOfChickens (2 April 2018)

Clodagh said:



			THere is a local man who runs with his huskies, he is a big (not fat, rugby type) guy and he has them on a harness attached to his belt. They look amazing, their ground covering lope looks effortless and tireless and I am quite sure at a human running pace they could go all day. They certainly are impressive, and I love blue eyes. 
Seeing as I am currently overfaced by a spaniel I would never, ever get one!

My OH - who is a complete saddo - watches this thing on Sky called 'Yukon Men'. They have a lot of huskies, but tbh they mainly don't look very husky like at all, to my eyes. Proper mutts! I wonder if they similarity to huskies would be comparable to the heavy horse on your average farm in Victorian times not looking like a modern Shire?
		
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the ones I was involved with were Siberians, the ones on the telly as BC says are Alaskan huskies and a whole other ball game. You dont see many Sibes doing the big races as they arent as fast. a lot of the Sibes I see nowadays would have been considered over height back when, my big dog was over height (he wasnt called Chewy for nothing) but most of the others relatively small-especially of course the bitches. The leader was the smallest dog who was quite a fluffy wee thing-he was not good with dogs that werent his pack.


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## Clodagh (2 April 2018)

blackcob said:



			I haven't seen the series Clodagh but they'll likely be Alaskan huskies, a type rather than a distinct breed (with many sub-types).
		
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Well you haven't missed much! It is a hard life though, but the dogs seem happy enough, although their living conditions would be frowned upon over here. That is interesting about them being Alaskan huskies, thank you.


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## Clodagh (2 April 2018)

MotherOfChickens said:



			the ones I was involved with were Siberians, the ones on the telly as BC says are Alaskan huskies and a whole other ball game. You dont see many Sibes doing the big races as they arent as fast. a lot of the Sibes I see nowadays would have been considered over height back when, my big dog was over height (he wasnt called Chewy for nothing) but most of the others relatively small-especially of course the bitches. The leader was the smallest dog who was quite a fluffy wee thing-he was not good with dogs that werent his pack.
		
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Again, interesting, thank you.


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## Moobli (2 April 2018)

My saddo hubby also watches Yukon Men and I have seen the Alaskan huskies they use out there.  I am really surprised they manage to keep warm and fit enough, as they look like a real mix of mutts - without the thick coat of a siberian.  I am sure they have a great working life, but you can't help but feel a wee bit sorry for them.  But not as sorry as when I see the multitude of siberians living in entirely the wrong situation in urban Britain.


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## MotherOfChickens (2 April 2018)

Laura2408 said:



			I dont think people always appreciate the importance of genetics and early socialisation and that sometimes loving a dog cant fix what genetics are telling it to do.
		
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sorry you had such a heartbreaking experience and think you are right.


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## MotherOfChickens (2 April 2018)

WorkingGSD said:



			My saddo hubby also watches Yukon Men and I have seen the Alaskan huskies they use out there.  I am really surprised they manage to keep warm and fit enough, as they look like a real mix of mutts - without the thick coat of a siberian.  I am sure they have a great working life, but you can't help but feel a wee bit sorry for them.  But not as sorry as when I see the multitude of siberians living in entirely the wrong situation in urban Britain.
		
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ok, ok -I confess. I am not a man but I watch Yukon Men and anything else I can find on that type of living *hangs head in shame*  

I've always fantasised about living in that sort of environment and doing one of the long races- too much Jack London as a kid!


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## MyBoyChe (2 April 2018)

Some very interesting points made above and does nothing to allay my worries that the dogs I saw yesterday are in completely the wrong sort of home


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## Moobli (2 April 2018)

Laura2408 said:



			I had a bad experience with this sort of thing.

We rescued a sick working line GSD puppy. From day one we had huge issues including nervous aggression and unpredictability with no off switch. 

We loved the dog and spend fortune on medication and behaviouralists but eventually had to admit defeat and PTS as the dog was not suitable as any sort of pet but was too nervous to work (we tried everything!) plus the medical problems meant rehoming was not an option. The dog had bitten or attempted to bite through a muzzle 3 people by this point so had no real choice in the matter. It was awful but I felt instant relief afterwards as its not easy to live with any dog like that! 

I now have another dog of the same breed but this one has come from a pet line of dogs bred to be pets and the change is unbelievable. She has an off switch, lives to please and best of all has a sound steady temperament. 

I dont think people always appreciate the importance of genetics and early socialisation and that sometimes loving a dog cant fix what genetics are telling it to do.
		
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I am sorry to hear of your loss   I think we discussed your dog and her issues?  I am glad you have a new dog that has restored your faith in the breed.

My WL GSD is the most stable of all the GSDs I have owned.  He has an off switch (after a busy day), is social, balanced and strong nerved.  Everything I wanted in a dog tbh.  I am not sure how he would get on in a less active home, but he is a perfect fit for me.


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## Moobli (2 April 2018)

MotherOfChickens said:



			ok, ok -I confess. I am not a man but I watch Yukon Men and anything else I can find on that type of living *hangs head in shame*  

I've always fantasised about living in that sort of environment and doing one of the long races- too much Jack London as a kid!
		
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ha ha   I kinda enjoy watching Yukon Men, Railroad Alaska and Mountain Men but draw the line at Alaskan Bush People and Goldrush!  lol  I LOVE Jack London books too.


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## Moobli (2 April 2018)

Listening to those of you who are, or have been, involved with huskies they seem like a lifestyle choice, if done correctly.  We have a chap who comes running on our hill tracks with two huskies, sometimes with a rig.  It looks like brilliant fun and they are stunning looking dogs.  Living on a sheep farm though, I would never consider owning one.


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## Clodagh (2 April 2018)

OMG. You lot watch all the redneck stuff! OH watches Goldrush too...


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## Laura2408 (2 April 2018)

WorkingGSD yes we did talk about her! I very nearly got a working line puppy however wanted something more geared towards family walks rather than working. Luckily we have the perfect girl now who adores children and other dogs and is just as happy cuddling up than running around (although they do still get lots of walking!)

I have met lots of working line or malinios crosses that are just not suitable for pets as they are bred and bought by the clueless. Shame for the dogs really.

The one I had was of a nervous rather than bold temperament and should never have been bred really


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## MotherOfChickens (2 April 2018)

WorkingGSD said:



			Listening to those of you who are, or have been, involved with huskies they seem like a lifestyle choice, if done correctly.  We have a chap who comes running on our hill tracks with two huskies, sometimes with a rig.  It looks like brilliant fun and they are stunning looking dogs.  Living on a sheep farm though, I would never consider owning one.
		
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its as much commitment as a horse imo-perhaps more so as you have to live with them. at the time I was offered pups I had just bought my first house and was desperate for my first dog after years of renting-but also knew that I didnt know what my long term future (ie the next 10 years) held job wise etc I didnt have a horse at the time either.


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## Moobli (2 April 2018)

Clodagh said:



			Well you haven't missed much! It is a hard life though, but the dogs seem happy enough, although their living conditions would be frowned upon over here. That is interesting about them being Alaskan huskies, thank you.
		
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Before the Estate provided very nice kennels/runs, hubby kept his sheepdogs in whisky barrels in good weather and they went in the barn in inclement weather.  I got so much stick from pet dog owners!













This is what they have now (which I also prefer)


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## MotherOfChickens (2 April 2018)

that huge chook again 

I think the barrels are cute (the kennels are lush!). I dunno, better than the ute my ex's kelpie lived under in Oz


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## CorvusCorax (2 April 2018)

With regard to GSDs, I've probably met more show lines that are iffy.
The saddest examples of the breed, working or show or pet, have 'drive' but not the genetic strength of nerve behind them to channel it or cope with stress, hence behaviours like tail chasing or self harming. Same with a lot of Malinois.
It's hard to describe unless you've seen it.

To paraphrase a judge 'when the dog is under stress he reaches back to his anscestors for help....but there is no one there'.


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## Laura2408 (2 April 2018)

Sounds a lot like mine was CC. She was a sweet little thing at times but when worried she had no other coping mechanism but to bite first then run. Nothing else crossed her mind but sheer panic and teeth. 

Incredibly sad but I could not change that split second reaction no matter what we did


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## Clodagh (2 April 2018)

MotherOfChickens said:



			that huge chook again 

I think the barrels are cute (the kennels are lush!). I dunno, better than the ute my ex's kelpie lived under in Oz 

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It is the child living in the barrel that gets me.  Child in barrel, chook in kennel, who are these people!? At least they let the poor little mite have his teddy. 
Our dogs lived under a caravan in Newman, WA, on chains too. They were fine. They did sleep in the caravan with us overnight.


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## TheresaW (2 April 2018)

I think I could quite happily live in a human sized barrel!

Your set up is fab WGSD.  I think Luna would happily live outside with the right set up. Unfortunately, too many scrotes around here, and shed soon get stolen no matter how secure we tried to make her.


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## oldie48 (2 April 2018)

Getting back to the original question I think it should have been why buy a dog from a working line and then not bother to train it so it is a suitable pet. I have just said farewell to my SIL and her lovely WC bitch. SIL lives on the coast, chucks dog in the car and goes to the same beach every day or walks off lead on the fore shore near to her house. The bitch is four and is a nightmare on a lead, pulls like a train. She can't be let off the lead near livestock and has zero recall. SIL is happy to have her off lead despite this but she completely does her own thing, she will go through any hedge and gets under or over anything else (practically). Yesterday she went after pheasant and it took 30 minutes and 2 dead birds before she could be caught. The bitch is perfectly trainable, has a lovely temperament and I cannot understand why anyone would buy a dog like this and not want to train it so it is a more relaxing companion. Stanley, the 10 month old BT, who comes from a working line, was a complete delight on our walks and stayed with us despite the WC's antics. I was so proud of him!


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## Clodagh (2 April 2018)

oldie48 said:



			Getting back to the original question I think it should have been why buy a dog from a working line and then not bother to train it so it is a suitable pet. I have just said farewell to my SIL and her lovely WC bitch. SIL lives on the coast, chucks dog in the car and goes to the same beach every day or walks off lead on the fore shore near to her house. The bitch is four and is a nightmare on a lead, pulls like a train. She can't be let off the lead near livestock and has zero recall. SIL is happy to have her off lead despite this but she completely does her own thing, she will go through any hedge and gets under or over anything else (practically). Yesterday she went after pheasant and it took 30 minutes and 2 dead birds before she could be caught. The bitch is perfectly trainable, has a lovely temperament and I cannot understand why anyone would buy a dog like this and not want to train it so it is a more relaxing companion. Stanley, the 10 month old BT, who comes from a working line, was a complete delight on our walks and stayed with us despite the WC's antics. I was so proud of him!
		
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So very true. Well done Stan!


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## wyrdsister (2 April 2018)

Some really interesting discussions and great points made on here. Thinking aloud, both my current spaniels are working lines and, although they're pets, I would look for workers again. A has been the easiest, sweetest, most trainable dog in the world. In her younger years, we did home concocted versions of agility and horse and hound classes, which she loved. F has definitely been harder, but there's a perverse streak on her mother's side that even her professional handlers found tricky. She might, or might not, have done better if worked - which was the original plan - but as long as she gets plenty of exercise, she's still a great pet. I am a country woman, though, so they're out and about a lot with us and the horses, and quite happy to crash out at home or in the office, while we work.


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## TheresaW (2 April 2018)

If I am 100% honest, I do think Luna would be fine off lead on walks (husky).  However, we have done a lot of research and know all about the prey drive, so not something I am willing to test. She does get off lead time at the horses where there is secure boundary fencing, and we use a long line out and about.

I have videos of her recalling, once chasing a pheasant, but cant post them on here as dont know how.

We have done obedience classes, and all time we are training her, even if she does think we are playing.


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## CorvusCorax (2 April 2018)

Wait until she's up a bit...we don't know what dogs we have until they're 18-24 months. 
I've recalled my adult dog off cats, herons, squirrels, etc but he once dicked off after a hare. At a service station rest area. Towards the lorry park. My bad.....


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## MotherOfChickens (2 April 2018)

Clodagh said:



			It is the child living in the barrel that gets me.  Child in barrel, chook in kennel, who are these people!? At least they let the poor little mite have his teddy. 

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 lol, poor kid


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## TheresaW (2 April 2018)

Thats why I wont let her off anywhere insecure. I know shes still a baby when alls said and done, and not a risk we are willing to take.


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## Moobli (2 April 2018)

Clodagh said:



			It is the child living in the barrel that gets me.  Child in barrel, chook in kennel, who are these people!? At least they let the poor little mite have his teddy. 

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Ha he would have been free to a good home but he's 15 now so almost old enough to fly the nest on his own


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## RunToEarth (5 April 2018)

amymay said:



			Probably because they're cheap.

Why do breeders allow them to go to pet homes?
		
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Depends on the breed, a well bred WGR will be as much if not more than something from show lines. 

I agree with you that breeders need to take a view on who they are selling to, absolutely. I had seven puppies out of my bitch last year and four went to friends and family to work, and I kept one back. The remaining two I advertised, and found what I considered to be well suited pet homes, where they would get ample training and exercise. 9 months on I am sill happy I made the right decision regarding pet homes. 

The colour and build of the WGR has become incredibly popular and as a result I had tens of messages about the two pups I advertised - the majority had a set up I think was inappropriate for a working bred dog. I cant ever recall being fussy about my dogs colour when I picked her up, but then she was bought on her working credentials.


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## pippixox (5 April 2018)

working or show line, ultimately there are sadly too many people who do not appreciate the breed they are buying. the rescue I got my collie from receives quite a lot of collies and spaniels who families can't cope with. also seems to be more and more Belgian malinois around now- who as far as I am aware are like a GSDxcollie working dog, not a pet.

my collie was bought as an 8 week old and they kept her in a house and garden (small terrace) for 2 years before deciding she was too much. walked perhaps 5 times in her whole life. she was nuts, but very friendly (if not over friendly seeking reassurance, still does a year on in my house) I know there are agility lines of collies as well as working sheep lines, but either way they are an active breed. but she comes to the horses twice a day with me, and often gets an extra walk in the day. she is very content. 

but.... when ever anyone says how lovely she is and how much they would love a collie, I actually tell them don't!!! she is stimulated free around barns and fields for a few hours a day, could play fetch for 8 hours straight if you let her, just went on holiday to the Peak District and she never slowed down until put in a crate at night as she had a big group of family to keep an eye on all day! she is a pet, loves snoozing on the sofa, but she is a very active pet with me understanding her need for routine to keep her calm.


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## niko (6 April 2018)

I have a working line black sable shepherd bitch. My intent was her to be the predecessor to the dog I competed with. She was got for dog sport so especially highly driven, with amazing ball drive.
However, life got in the way & a toddler & 4month old changed that. She's now a family pet....albeit an exceptionally high energy one! I work from home & with two kids she still still has to come first. I can't have a coffee without taking her across the fields to relieve the energy stored through the night! I could easily take her out 4/5 times a day do brain work, run her ragged & she's still ready to go! The baby goes on my back, toddler gets suited & booted & off we go across fields no matter the weather she needs exercise. It aggravates me when people have a family & the dog is cast aside, left outside or rehomed as they don't have time. Well you made a commitment to the dog, honour it. 
After lots of stimulation we finally find a mellow button, then she will lie in front of the fire or beside the baby with a chew and be content.......until the next daylight hours! 
When I was pregnant I talked about rehoming her to a working home or police. But I couldn't part with her as she survived parvo & swear she fought it to stay with us. So although she's a working dog, she's a pet, but now that's her job. To play with the kids, lie on the sofa & be ready to chase a ball. I don't think she misses working to be honest, her role has just changed. But again it's about stimulation.....She's takes a lot but I signed up to that & ensure she gets it.


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## Moobli (7 April 2018)

Pippixox - I follow a few Malinois pages on FB and the rescue ones are forever pleading with breeders not to sell to pet homes and for buyers not to consider the working line Mali as a suitable pet.  Of course this doesn&#8217;t stop people and I can only see the situation getting worse for the breed as they are seen more frequently out of a working role and in the sports arena of agility/flyball etc.  There does seem to be a fashion craze surrounding the breed just now.  Never a good thing.

Niko - I have a dark sable WL shepherd too &#55357;&#56842;. In his younger years we attended a local working trials club and thoroughly enjoyed it, especially the tracking element and it&#8217;s something I&#8217;d like to get into again with a future shepherd once the ties of the children and farm are less.  My dog is now 7 years and so has slowed down a little in terms of he&#8217;ll sleep a little longer when there&#8217;s no activity but he spends much of the day outdoors with me, doing jobs and bits of training as well as having a couple of good walks a day too.  He&#8217;s a fabulous dog but I do try to make any potential fans aware that he does need a lot in terms of stimulation, exercise and company.  I dread to think what he&#8217;s be like if left alone m, shut in a house for long periods with nothing to do.  I expect he&#8217;d make his own entertainment &#55357;&#56841;


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## npage123 (7 April 2018)

Our Shih Tzu is a working dog - her job is to ensure our Staffie doesn't play too exuberantly ...

Hope the video works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhmVLgdKwrU


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## pippixox (7 April 2018)

niko said:



			I have a working line black sable shepherd bitch. My intent was her to be the predecessor to the dog I competed with. She was got for dog sport so especially highly driven, with amazing ball drive.
However, life got in the way & a toddler & 4month old changed that. She's now a family pet....albeit an exceptionally high energy one! I work from home & with two kids she still still has to come first. I can't have a coffee without taking her across the fields to relieve the energy stored through the night! I could easily take her out 4/5 times a day do brain work, run her ragged & she's still ready to go! The baby goes on my back, toddler gets suited & booted & off we go across fields no matter the weather she needs exercise. It aggravates me when people have a family & the dog is cast aside, left outside or rehomed as they don't have time. Well you made a commitment to the dog, honour it. 
After lots of stimulation we finally find a mellow button, then she will lie in front of the fire or beside the baby with a chew and be content.......until the next daylight hours! 
When I was pregnant I talked about rehoming her to a working home or police. But I couldn't part with her as she survived parvo & swear she fought it to stay with us. So although she's a working dog, she's a pet, but now that's her job. To play with the kids, lie on the sofa & be ready to chase a ball. I don't think she misses working to be honest, her role has just changed. But again it's about stimulation.....She's takes a lot but I signed up to that & ensure she gets it.
		
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Agree with everything you said! 
My husband had to take our GSD for a run before I would let him take me to hospital while I was in established labour! As he always had a run around the fields at the horses every morning so why should that day be any different?! 

Working GSD: the trend for malinois and also husky types scares me. I am sure they are wonderful loyal dogs for experienced dedicated owners. But not really a pet.


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## Clodagh (7 April 2018)

I cannot comprehend on any level how anyone could have a springer spaniel as a pet.
OH & I have had dobes, collies, kelpies, heelers, lurchers, mutts and a load of terriers and I have never, ever met a dog that is such hard work. She is incredibly cute and I am sure that she will be excellent at her job when she is old enough to do it but wow, the next 18 months will be testing.


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## Moobli (7 April 2018)

npage123 said:



			Our Shih Tzu is a working dog - her job is to ensure our Staffie doesn't play too exuberantly ...

Hope the video works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhmVLgdKwrU

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Very cute!!


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## Moobli (7 April 2018)

Clodagh said:



			I cannot comprehend on any level how anyone could have a springer spaniel as a pet.
OH & I have had dobes, collies, kelpies, heelers, lurchers, mutts and a load of terriers and I have never, ever met a dog that is such hard work. She is incredibly cute and I am sure that she will be excellent at her job when she is old enough to do it but wow, the next 18 months will be testing.
		
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And yet gundogs, inc spaniels, are often put forward as great family dogs.  I reckon that is probably because of their friendly nature, but some people forget to also mention or to consider the strong hunt and work drive of such dogs.


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## blackcob (7 April 2018)

I suppose that's one argument in favour of maintaining the split between show and working type gundogs - I know there's plenty that think the show types are an abomination but they are usually far better suited to being family pets. 

Alaskan Klee Kai etc. could be regarded as similar attempts at domesticating the Siberian.


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## Clodagh (7 April 2018)

WorkingGSD said:



			And yet gundogs, inc spaniels, are often put forward as great family dogs.  I reckon that is probably because of their friendly nature, but some people forget to also mention or to consider the strong hunt and work drive of such dogs.
		
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I think a working lab can fit well into a pet home, if a very active one. Retrieving breeds tend to want to do things with you - fetch the ball etc, and that means they tend to want to know where you are. Spaniels (in my huge experience of one!) just want to vanish out hunting, pleasing themselves, and it is no skin off their noses if you are there or not. It is hard for me to judge, as all my dogs work, but whereas a 4 month old lab will potter along on a little walk, doing the smells and staying in sight, the spaniel does not have that connection. Walking her is work rather than pleasure. I suppose if she was to be a pet she could just run off hunting and hopefully no harm done, but we cannot allow her to self gratify that way. That was why I asked about your collie pups presumably wanting to round things up all the time.


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## Clodagh (7 April 2018)

blackcob said:



			I suppose that's one argument in favour of maintaining the split between show and working type gundogs - I know there's plenty that think the show types are an abomination but they are usually far better suited to being family pets. 
p
		
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Yes, although I don't know any show type spainels, I imagine they would still hunt but maybe slower and with less commitment. This one we have is like those flying beetle things in the Northern Lights book.


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## blackcob (7 April 2018)

Clodagh said:



			This one we have is like those flying beetle things in the Northern Lights book.
		
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Eek! 

My mum's show spaniels do love hunting but they mostly love being glued to their humans more, something I find both endearing and baffling after the sibes. I think the only time I've ever lost out was to a really tempting seagull!


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## Clodagh (7 April 2018)

blackcob said:



			Eek! 

My mum's show spaniels do love hunting but they mostly love being glued to their humans more, something I find both endearing and baffling after the sibes. I think the only time I've ever lost out was to a really tempting seagull!
		
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Are they cockers? Apparently even working cockers are human needy - no one told us that until we got a springer!


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## blackcob (7 April 2018)

They are - should've had a cocker.  

It's lovely to a point, I am a bit glad to hand them back after their holidays though. One time I nearly squashed the eldest as I was getting out of the shower, he was curled up and camouflaged in the discarded clothes on the floor, waiting to affix himself back to my leg. It's too much!


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## eatmyshorts (7 April 2018)

We've got mainly GSP's from strong German working lines, & they make perfect pets, but probably because they are given the stimulation they need. I don't think working lines are right for everyone - I've rehomed lots of rescue GSP's & sometimes the ones with more working lines can be a bit more demanding (am not sure that's the right word!), so perhaps for first time GSP owners, a show bred one may be wiser (although i don't think there's enough difference to make it a deal breaker & all depends on the dog/owner).

From what i've seen, there seems to be more of a difference in breeds such as cockers, siberian huskies, & even more so, Alaskan huskies. The latter (not a breed of course - I like to think of them as the lurcher of the sled dog world - i have one who is often mistaken for a collie!) because they are particularly bred for their working qualities


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## DabDab (7 April 2018)

Clodagh said:



			Yes, although I don't know any show type spainels, I imagine they would still hunt but maybe slower and with less commitment. This one we have is like those flying beetle things in the Northern Lights book.
		
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Hehe, I always think that the very working type springers do look like they've got voices in their heads  You know, as they're staring manically at a stray piece of gravel or leaping about snapping at the air, trying to catch some air borne thing only they can see


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## Karran (7 April 2018)

Clodagh said:



			Are they cockers? Apparently even working cockers are human needy - no one told us that until we got a springer!
		
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Mrs Spaniel is incredibly needy!!! She is like Velcro all the time, never rests if I'm in the house with her and get up, she needs to go first and lead the way into danger, often walking into things as she has her head over her shoulder watching me. *rolls eyes* lying on the sofa she needs to be as close as possible or even just a paw or head resting on you. 

I wouldn't say there was much of a hunting drive in her. She knows where she can chase pigeons and squirrels and where she needs to leave them alone but even if she does set off she never goes far as frets about me being out of eyesight!


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## maisie06 (7 April 2018)

Karran said:



			Mrs Spaniel is incredibly needy!!! She is like Velcro all the time, never rests if I'm in the house with her and get up, she needs to go first and lead the way into danger, often walking into things as she has her head over her shoulder watching me. *rolls eyes* lying on the sofa she needs to be as close as possible or even just a paw or head resting on you. 

I wouldn't say there was much of a hunting drive in her. She knows where she can chase pigeons and squirrels and where she needs to leave them alone but even if she does set off she never goes far as frets about me being out of eyesight!
		
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Wanna swap for mine?? Massive hunting drive, can scent a pheasant 3 fields over and will be gone if you take your eye off the ball....I'm sure there are people in the area who actually think his name is "little s.h.i.t" !!!


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## rara007 (7 April 2018)

I think we're doing alright! He's a FT bred (and failed, then failed in a 'normal' working home). He settles much quicker than my sisters working bred WSD we've had since puppy. Walking him is working him and the lack of consistency inherent with living in a family house can easily cause issues but in a 'doggy' household he's be an unbeatable pet. My previous dog was a show bred cocker with 0 hunt or work drive, he never fetched or flushed or chased a single thing, did agility at the trot- there's literally no comparison!


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## {97702} (7 April 2018)

I'll say it again.....you have the wrong breeds, not the wrong 'type' of dog......   My working dogs....













Well if you will insist on sticking to those cockers, springers and the like.....


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## Karran (7 April 2018)

maisie06 said:



			Wanna swap for mine?? Massive hunting drive, can scent a pheasant 3 fields over and will be gone if you take your eye off the ball....I'm sure there are people in the area who actually think his name is "little s.h.i.t" !!!
		
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Haha! To be fair I think I've got quite lucky with her, listening to other peoples stories of their maniac spaniels!


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## druid (7 April 2018)

Clodagh said:



			I cannot comprehend on any level how anyone could have a springer spaniel as a pet.
OH & I have had dobes, collies, kelpies, heelers, lurchers, mutts and a load of terriers and I have never, ever met a dog that is such hard work. She is incredibly cute and I am sure that she will be excellent at her job when she is old enough to do it but wow, the next 18 months will be testing.
		
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 Couldn't agree more, yet people are aghast when I explain mine never "go for walks" because they'd be self hunting in the next county in a flash


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## Clodagh (8 April 2018)

druid said:



			Couldn't agree more, yet people are aghast when I explain mine never "go for walks" because they'd be self hunting in the next county in a flash
		
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I am so glad to hear you say that. To us walking the dogs is a pleasure for us and them. She only gets out the garden on a long line for a poo or for a quick training session. Even in the garden she runs after blackbirds and pigeons.


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## oldie48 (8 April 2018)

Am I missing something? I thought the whole point of working dogs was that they had inherent traits that made them suitable for a particular job but had a trainable temperament that enabled the dog to be trained to work with it's human. If the dog can't be trained then surely it's just a liability as a working dog. If you have a working dog as a pet then the owner needs to find other ways to meet it's natural instincts/drive/energy level etc. My SIL's WC is perfectly trainable and would be brilliant at agility and lots of other things but she doesn't make the effort to meet it's need to have it's brain engaged as well as it's legs. I can't help thinking that perhaps people don't consider their level of comittment and the time they have available to devote to a dog when they make their choice of breed and that's more of a problem than whether they get a working or show breed.


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## Clodagh (8 April 2018)

oldie48 said:



			Am I missing something? I thought the whole point of working dogs was that they had inherent traits that made them suitable for a particular job but had a trainable temperament that enabled the dog to be trained to work with it's human. If the dog can't be trained then surely it's just a liability as a working dog. If you have a working dog as a pet then the owner needs to find other ways to meet it's natural instincts/drive/energy level etc. My SIL's WC is perfectly trainable and would be brilliant at agility and lots of other things but she doesn't make the effort to meet it's need to have it's brain engaged as well as it's legs. I can't help thinking that perhaps people don't consider their level of comittment and the time they have available to devote to a dog when they make their choice of breed and that's more of a problem than whether they get a working or show breed.
		
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I used to think that, too.


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## Clodagh (8 April 2018)

For a serious answer, Oldie48, it depends what they have been bred for. Spaniels have been bred for generations to be hard hunting dogs with 110% commitment to finding that game. That will include going into woods, nettles, brambles and just hunting all day. They need to be tireless and have endless enthusiasm. Yes they also need to be trainable, but at a young age you are not letting them hunt, as they must only hunt for you not themselves. For instance Smut at 5 months has excellent recall and stop but once she has recalled or stopped she is just off after those smells again, at a flat gallop.


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## oldie48 (8 April 2018)

Clodagh said:



			For a serious answer, Oldie48, it depends what they have been bred for. Spaniels have been bred for generations to be hard hunting dogs with 110% commitment to finding that game. That will include going into woods, nettles, brambles and just hunting all day. They need to be tireless and have endless enthusiasm. Yes they also need to be trainable, but at a young age you are not letting them hunt, as they must only hunt for you not themselves. For instance Smut at 5 months has excellent recall and stop but once she has recalled or stopped she is just off after those smells again, at a flat gallop.
		
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That's clearly where SIL has gone wrong. I was keen on getting a WC as I WAS very taken with SIL's dog but OH was less so, perhaps on this occasion he was right. Friend's show cocker was mad as a pup but actually is now a really super pet.


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## RunToEarth (8 April 2018)

oldie48 said:



			Am I missing something? I thought the whole point of working dogs was that they had inherent traits that made them suitable for a particular job but had a trainable temperament that enabled the dog to be trained to work with it's human. If the dog can't be trained then surely it's just a liability as a working dog.
		
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Trained to what though? If you buy a working bred dog such as a spaniel, you cant train the hunting drive out of them in favour of pavement walks and extended sofa breaks? The issue is people picking the wrong breeds( and breeders selling to the wrong homes equally) but as trainable as my WGRs are, I cant train them to be less driven working dogs and need their mental and physical demands met each day. 

I agree with Clodaugh though, spaniels as pets, lol, just NO.


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## Moobli (8 April 2018)

oldie48 said:



			Am I missing something? I thought the whole point of working dogs was that they had inherent traits that made them suitable for a particular job but had a trainable temperament that enabled the dog to be trained to work with it's human. If the dog can't be trained then surely it's just a liability as a working dog. If you have a working dog as a pet then the owner needs to find other ways to meet it's natural instincts/drive/energy level etc. My SIL's WC is perfectly trainable and would be brilliant at agility and lots of other things but she doesn't make the effort to meet it's need to have it's brain engaged as well as it's legs. I can't help thinking that perhaps people don't consider their level of comittment and the time they have available to devote to a dog when they make their choice of breed and that's more of a problem than whether they get a working or show breed.
		
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You haven't missed the point - you have hit the nail on the head!  Choose your breed wisely, not just based on looks, fashion or fad, try to match your lifestyle to a suitable breed or be prepared to change your lifestyle to accommodate particular needs, then look at the different types and lines of dog within the breed.  Look at the parents and grandparents, older siblings and speak to other owners.  Find out what the dogs from a particular breeder or line are like to live with and decide whether the home offered is suitable for such a dog.  Of course there will always be variables within breeds, lines and even litters - but there will also be inherent traits and expected energy levels, training and exercise requirements.  No matter what though, not all dogs will be suitable for all homes so it is down to the breeder to be more particular about where they sell pups to, and for buyers to be honest with themselves about the type of home and activities they can provide and whether it will match their chosen dog.


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## Moobli (8 April 2018)

RunToEarth said:



			Trained to what though? If you buy a working bred dog such as a spaniel, you can&#8217;t train the hunting drive out of them in favour of pavement walks and extended sofa breaks? The issue is people picking the wrong breeds( and breeders selling to the wrong homes equally) but as trainable as my WGRs are, I can&#8217;t train them to be less driven working dogs and need their mental and physical demands met each day.
		
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Precisely this!


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## maisie06 (8 April 2018)

druid said:



			Couldn't agree more, yet people are aghast when I explain mine never "go for walks" because they'd be self hunting in the next county in a flash
		
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Every walk is a training session with a WCS! Take last night...the pet dog people just let their dogs chase the pheasants all over the wood and think I'm a cruel owner because I won't let Billy do that...oh no way!! he's to sit to the flush if one flaps up and he's on a line to emphasise the fact stop means STOP...end of!! I'm lucky I have tonnes of ideal training ground at the farm where I look after a friends horse!!

But having said that training him isn't a chore and I'm enjoying it....I have a massive list of things I would NEVER do if I had another spaniel though!!


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## druid (8 April 2018)

maisie06 said:



			Every walk is a training session with a WCS! Take last night...the pet dog people just let their dogs chase the pheasants all over the wood and think I'm a cruel owner because I won't let Billy do that...oh no way!! he's to sit to the flush if one flaps up and he's on a line to emphasise the fact stop means STOP...end of!! I'm lucky I have tonnes of ideal training ground at the farm where I look after a friends horse!!

But having said that training him isn't a chore and I'm enjoying it....I have a massive list of things I would NEVER do if I had another spaniel though!!
		
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But that's not going for a walk, that's training him to hunt...mine hunt and retrieve lots and have a "go play" command used in the exercise field but I never arrive somewhere. take their leads off and stroll along letting them run about


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## PapaverFollis (8 April 2018)

I must be missing something (or have been somehow lucky as I think I sad earlier in the thread) I have a working bred spaniel (sprocker) in very much a pet home, we dabbled in agility when he was younger and do longer walks a couple of times a week but by no means everyday and he's fine. Doesn't bog off to hunt, but training recall was always top priority, and is perfectly content sofa surfing for a day, even a few days on the trot if he has to. Every walk involves training and games though because to me that's what you do with dogs... perhaps in more typical "pet" homes the dog gets ignored more while out? I like my dogs in sight and engaged with me while walking and am always strict about it, so maybe that's what has worked for us.


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## oldie48 (9 April 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			I must be missing something (or have been somehow lucky as I think I sad earlier in the thread) I have a working bred spaniel (sprocker) in very much a pet home, we dabbled in agility when he was younger and do longer walks a couple of times a week but by no means everyday and he's fine. Doesn't bog off to hunt, but training recall was always top priority, and is perfectly content sofa surfing for a day, even a few days on the trot if he has to. Every walk involves training and games though because to me that's what you do with dogs... perhaps in more typical "pet" homes the dog gets ignored more while out? I like my dogs in sight and engaged with me while walking and am always strict about it, so maybe that's what has worked for us.
		
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Perhaps there are some people who work their dogs who think that all pet homes are the same ie, walks on the lead, dog lacks training so has no recall, poor socialisation so it's aggressive, not enough exercise so it gets destructive in the home etc. I do know homes like these but I also know lots of pet homes that do a really good job with their dog and can give energetic working breeds a happy and fulfilling life but not necessarily doing the job it's bred for. I regularly meet a trio of springers who are an absolute delight but they get three long walks a day, I also meet a lady who has WCs, she also boards them so she sometimes has 4 or 5 with her and she has total control over them, if there's one on a lead, it's a boarder. however, several of my nearer neighbours have JRTs, they are all yappy, disobedient, can't be let off the lead, several are aggressive to other dogs and frankly they are not very nice pets. Breed or owners?


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## CorvusCorax (9 April 2018)

No amount of training or socialisation changes genetics. It can hide things, but not change them. 
Not all dogs in a litter will be hunting/biting/running machines so that's why they do better in pet homes.
The more driven ones, don't. 

Again, for me, it's terminology.
People tell me that they have 'working dogs' because their dog doesn't look like a show dog or they've believed a sales pitch.
But I can look at the papers and see that none of the anscestors has worked in several generations. 
So for me, that's a pet.
I imagine that's the same with a lot of breeds.
Just because it doesn't look like it would win in a show, doesn't mean it is bred specifically for work.


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## Karran (9 April 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			I must be missing something (or have been somehow lucky as I think I sad earlier in the thread) I have a working bred spaniel (sprocker) in very much a pet home, we dabbled in agility when he was younger and do longer walks a couple of times a week but by no means everyday and he's fine. Doesn't bog off to hunt, but training recall was always top priority, and is perfectly content sofa surfing for a day, even a few days on the trot if he has to. Every walk involves training and games though because to me that's what you do with dogs... perhaps in more typical "pet" homes the dog gets ignored more while out? I like my dogs in sight and engaged with me while walking and am always strict about it, so maybe that's what has worked for us.
		
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I am starting to think Mrs Spaniel is an imposter-spaniel having read everyone else's horror stories. Recall is important to me, but when I walk her, its a de-stress and I do tend to go around in a day dream or divert to look at something that catches my attention and she tags along minding her own business, sniffing around but never too far and waits for me to head off again, as mentioned though she's clingy so never more than a few feet away. I rarely take a ball, toy or treat out as she'd just be bothering me all the time for attention wanting to play and I feel its important for her to go and explore new smells, and be focused on something that's not me but I also put the work in when she first arrived to know that she'd come the minute I call her.


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