# Grazing rights on private land



## Mrjones (17 November 2013)

Hi I'm sorry to bother everybody and wonder if anybody can help me.basically I have owned a parcel of 5 acres of grazing land for around 8 years. The land is located over 150 miles away from me so I never go there.basically I decided to go and have a look at my land as I was going to sell it but upon arriving I notice 3 horses on my land with a sign and phone number simply saying enquiries.so I ring the number and ask what was the horses doing on my land without permission? I bluntly get told that the horses have been on the land for 3 years and they won't be removing them as they think they have grazing rights because they have grazed the land for over 12 months without my permission witch gives them grazing rights.i knock on the local neighbours houses and they have confirmed the horses have been on the land for the past couple of years.is this true? Can they claim grazing rights over my private land? I no I was stupid to leave the land for so long but it was to far to travel to.i have read online and apparently this person and there horses may well be entitled to grazing rights but I can't find nothing in law.i looked up squatters rights and adverse possession etc and it states 10 or 12 years to gain a title.i rang the number again and pointed this out to witch the person replied I'm not claiming adverse possession and the land is yours (mine) they said they where claiming rights to graze there animals as they have done so for 12 months without being interrupted by me.can they do this? If so does anybody no the laws? The land itself isn't worth that much and I fear solicitors and court costs may out weight the price of the actual land.so really I need abit of advice if anybody nos anything about this? Any help or info would be highly appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to read all of this aswell


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## Honey08 (17 November 2013)

Hi, don't apologise for asking a question, that's what the forum is for.

I'm not totally sure, but I don't know if grazing rights would apply to someone using a field without permission.  I know that if you let a field out, or let someone graze your land you shouldn't let the land for a 12 month period, you should make them move off the land for a period of time, otherwise they have grazing rights and can't be moved off.  In your case surely they are trespassing?  Hope you can get more info off here.  Must be very annoying.


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## galaxy (17 November 2013)

I'm sorry I am no law expert but I am astounded at the cheek of these people! Why don't people have any morals anymore and know basic right and wrongs!!

I would suggest getting legal advise. A way that may work out cheap for you would be to become a gold member of the. British Horse Society which will give you free access to their legal helpline. They would be the experts in this situation. Www.bhs.org.uk

Good luck!


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## jrp204 (17 November 2013)

You could also join NFU countrywide, they have free advice too.


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## honetpot (17 November 2013)

Quick google and I found this.
http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/analysis/holding-your-own-squatters-rights/59664.article
I think as soon as possible you should serve them with an eviction notice. I had a problem last year with an unwanted guest, if it goes to court you have to show you have acted reasonably, but  a friend who is a letting agent for houses never pays a solicitor when she goes to court she does it all her self.


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## Polos Mum (17 November 2013)

Does your home insurance include free legal advice - many of them do so it would be worth checking, 
or join the BHS for £60 and use their free legal advice line. 

Even your local solicitor will usually talk to you for an initial consultation for free. 

Even the worst land in the poorest location is c£2/3k an acre so for £10k+ it'd be worth getting at least initial legal advice as to the situation.


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## Toby_Zaphod (17 November 2013)

Posting questions like this on a forum may draw some replies giving you how you stand legally however the majority of posts will just give an opinion & unfortunately that isn't the law. You need to seek professional legal advice so arrange to see a solicitor.


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## hoggedmane (17 November 2013)

I would plough it


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## jrp204 (17 November 2013)

Awesome! Ring a farmer and get him to plough it. Wouldn't actually ring them to tell them, drive in, shut gate, plough field with horses in. Horse owners will turn up pretty quick.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (17 November 2013)

Agree with the ploughing!

Grazing rights only come about through unbroken tenancy - when you will need to prove..... I hope you havent given the 'tenants' your contact details as some have been known to get agreements drawn up without owners knowledge which in turn causes more problems in delaying tactics......
Info is a dangerous thing.

So - get it ploughed up asap  & contact your solicitor/legal representative too.


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## bonny (17 November 2013)

I was thinking that if you haven't even seen the land for years, let alone looked after it then maybe in a strange way having horses grazing on it has done you a favour at the same time as being a headache now. I wouldn't start ploughing it up if you want to sell it but try and find a better way of getting the horses off the land.


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## Patterdale (17 November 2013)

OMG. People would just not do this to me, but if they DID......I would take a 2 step approach. 

Step 1 - Get Them Off The Land

I would first, as hoggedmane says, plough it. If you can't do this, I would ring the horse owners and tell them you will be treating the field with a fertiliser extremely poisonous to horses. Then, next day I would put up a sign in title advising the same. (I wouldn't actually do it - but they wouldn't know that. And let's be honest, who'd take the risk?)
Then, padlock gate and hinges. Photograph all fencing and if they damage it to put the horses back in I'd have them for criminal damage. 

Step 2 - Exact Revenge

Find out where they live and move into their garden/car/house. Or chuck a few pigs in the garden. 
But I can't post what id actually do...... 

I certainly wouldn't mess around with solicitors and eviction notices, I'd just sort it myself. 

But ploughing would probably be the most effective action.


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## Mrjones (17 November 2013)

Thank you all so so so so much.honestly it means a lot that you have taken your time to reply with some fantastic ideas. I will defiantly be joining the associations you have mentioned as this should save me some money and at least give me some basic understanding of the law. Ploughing seems like a excellent idea but I would fear the come backs as by the sounds of the person on the phone they sound like they are from the traveling community (not that I judge them any different from non gypsys) but I don't really want to pick a fight so to say.i just really hope there not entitled to grazing rights as I'd feel the land is technically there's and I've lost it.by the sounds of it without any court action there not going to budge so legal action will be my only route to getting this resolved.again thank you all so much it really does mean a lot


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## Orangehorse (17 November 2013)

Your house insurance will probably include some legal expenses cover. An estate agent - a proper land agent I mean, not one selling just houses - would also know the answer to this.  And they would be happy to talk to you if they thought you were going to sell the field and they might act for you.

If there are horses there grazing, what are they doing for water?  

It is a big cheek, but I can't see that they have any rights at all.  Is the land in your name at the Land Registry?


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## Cinnamontoast (17 November 2013)

If they don't have your address, they aren't able to get to you. Be careful how you deal with them. If you do plough-quickest easiest way of getting rid-then make sure you contact the local police in case anyone turns up and gives you trouble. Definitely get correct legal advice before doing anything. Given it's your land, you are perfectly within your rights to plough.


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## OrangePepper (17 November 2013)

Use a company that specialises in evicting travellers such as Sherlocks.
www.sherlock.uk.net


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## alainax (17 November 2013)

According to quite a few legal websites I've had a read through, "grazing rights" only apply to common land, and not privately owned land. Of course as mentioned previous that's just what people are saying online, and not real legal advice. 

You could laminate and staple and eviction notice to the gate post, stating a reasonable period of time for the animals to be removed ( like 21 days). After which point if they are still there then you have to consider which methods you can use to make them move. The police may call it a civil matter, ploughing it or removing fences could decrease its value. 

Another thought... If you are selling it maybe you wont need to evict them? As long as you are clear from a legal eagle that there is no such thing as grazing rights on private land, then pop up the for sale sign and sell it as is. You never know the new owners may dig it all up for house building, keep it as is just as an investment... or contact the horse owners who currently gazing on it and offer them  a rental agreement. Sounds a bit callous just selling it and letting it be the buyers problem, but I guess many big businesses would. And it gives the current people who are on it time to find other grazing.


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## Sare (17 November 2013)

It's known as fly-grazing and is very common and a big problem in some areas of the country.  It's a difficult one to deal with, with no real legislation around it.  Try googling fly grazing for more info.  As a starter:  http://www.nfuonline.com/fly-grazing-action-plan-july-2013/


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## Mrjones (17 November 2013)

The land is unregistered presently but it does have private property no trespassing signs etc. I got it as more of a investment and felt rather proud that I owned my own land as the land prices nearer to home are sky high and totally out of my budget. In terms of water there is like a bucket but a really big one in the corner of the field witch I presume they manually fill up as there's no water supply on the field. There was also hay in a pile witch I'm guessing they put down every now and then and from speaking to the locals there has also been foals on there so I'm guessing they bred the horses.i asked how often people where there and they said not very often. In fairness the horses do look in good condition but I'm not a expert horsey person so wouldn't no for sure.i rang the police and rspca etc but unfortunately it's a civil offence so they can't get involved.my main worry is if I could even afford to get them moved of as I'm abit skint at the moment and with Christmas round the corner and my own expensives such as insurance petrol rent etc I feel a little doomed that's why all your info helps me more then you think. Again I thank you all and your ideas are a lot better then mine. I've been on the internet all day but as you can imagine there's a lot of conflicting information on the internet


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## Sare (17 November 2013)

Another useful one:
http://www.redwings.org.uk/welfare/advice-and-information/abandonment/


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## Jo_x (17 November 2013)

Similar to the ploughing suggestion - could you (threaten to) remove the gate?


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## maccachic (18 November 2013)

Call them up tell you they owe you for 3 years of grazing which is x amount.  Im sure they will disappear pretty quickly.  Arrange a date to collect at property.


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## Patterdale (18 November 2013)

Honestly if you live 150 miles away and they don't know your address I wouldn't really worry about repercussions. 
You don't even have to be there. Look in yellow pages for Agricultural Contractors and arrange for someone to plough the field and remove the gate after they're done. The people might be cross but they don't be able to graze it and will have to move on


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## jrp204 (18 November 2013)

They cannot 'claim' the field, adverse possession requires 10 or 12 yrs of uninterrupted use, all you would have to do to protect yourself is for you or someone you have employed to go to the field and trim a hedge or do some sort of maintenance, takes pics with either the date on or a copy of the days paper or keep  the invoice for the work.
I cannot believe the nerve of people, a friend of ours has afield backing onto the village as an investment, he found someone who's house backs onto the land had built a patio into the field and was claiming AP, luckily my OH had trimmed the field 6yrs before and Google Earth had pics on the timeline showing the field over the past 8yrs. The patio was ripped up, returned and a 3'6 block wall built on the boundary which unfortunately came half way up their newly built patio doors. To say they weren't happy would be an understatement. Cheeky beggars!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (18 November 2013)

I found the BHS legal helpline the best as they are specialists, take note of the questions they ask you, they will be relevant.
Sherlocks, they will tell you how to proceed at this stage
Free legal advice is not generally available for this sort of thing and you may need to ring around to find a solicitor to suit your purposes. 
Sherlocks might help.


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## cremedemonthe (18 November 2013)

No legal advice but I'm with Patterdale, I'd be fuming I'd tell these people what I'm doing to give them a chance to remove the horses safely then I'd get one of my farmer mates to plough it and remove the gate.


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## pennyturner (18 November 2013)

As an absentee owner, you will always be open to this kind of thing.

For fifteen years, I had free use of 12 acres.  The owner had previously been paying a retainer to a local chap to look after it, so having me checking it, maintaining fences, and avoiding 'uninvited tenants' was a good deal for both of us.

These people don't sound like the kind you want to be dealing with, but you should look at renting it to someone who will check it and care for it.

You can't just leave land.  It turns horrid very quickly, so in a strange way, if they have been grazing it, at least they have been keeping it in decent condition for you.


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## Alec Swan (18 November 2013)

jrp204 said:



			They cannot 'claim' the field, adverse possession requires 10 or 12 yrs of uninterrupted use, .......!
		
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This.  Trespass does not constitute any tenancy agreement,  and as you've had no agreement,  so there's no basis for their claim.  

I suspect that the short answer is that you will have to place a Court order in front of them.  In your shoes,  I'd 'phone them,  ask for their name and address for the Court to communicate with them,  and you can actually do it yourself.  It's a case of a form or two to fill in,  then sit and wait.  

However aggrieved you may be,  and however justified,  I wouldn't take any steps to rectify the situation yourself,  no matter what the temptation.  Whilst you have right on your side,  it would be silly to allow any form of response from your squatters or allow them the room to have any form of counter argument.

Alec.

PS.  As a footnote,  I really wouldn't become involved in any sort of dialogue with your squatters,  and certainly don't justify your claim by saying that you want to sell the land,  as they may well see that as an invitation to suggest that you pay them "compensation" from the proceeds of the sale.


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## honetpot (18 November 2013)

In a way if they are travellers they know the game and they will be easier to move. They fly graze, the landowner serves an eviction notice and they move just before the bailiffs are due to turn up and on to the next.
 For the future get it securely fenced and gated and rent it out on a licence to graze, prefabely for sheep,http://www.netlawman.co.uk/, as this does not set up any tenancy rights, the grass is a crop.


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## smellsofhorse (18 November 2013)

If the land isn't worth much but these people are happily grazing their horses on in.
Surely you can just charge them and make some money.

I have no ideas on the laws about this though.


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## Goldenstar (18 November 2013)

Seek advice , they don't have a right to remain just find out what is the correct procedure for  getting rid of them and get it done .
The cheek of people is unreal.


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## Spring Feather (18 November 2013)

I wouldn't hesitate in having it ploughed up.  There ends their time on your land.


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## Mrjones (18 November 2013)

Hi thanks for your replys.ive been on the phone all day to many solicitors etc and it seems the only thing I can do is serve legal documents on unknown persons. As it's a civil offence they are not legally required to give me there name or address etc so I have to post it on the gate to unknown persons.ive spoken to bailiffs solicitors etc and they are saying the same.as much as I can charge for 3 years grazing I will never see a penny.i would need a county court order to do this but again don't no there names and even if I did and had a court order granted there's not much I could send a bailiff to take.there caravan is classed as there home so no bailiff could or would touch that as it's against there human rights apparently.i read online about the travellers who brought a £30000 caravan for £200 (or so they claim) it was stolen from a elderly couple and the police have refused to take it back and return it due to there human rights.there cars are all on finance hp etc so they can't be taken anyway and there vans are and tools etc are classed as tools of the trade so again immune from any form of enforcement.i asked about taking the gate of and was told it would be very unwise to do this.as the horses are on my land I am liable for them.if they get lost run away etc guess who has to foot the bill? ME if they get hit by a car etc I'm also liable and in cases of a crash and somebody dies etc expect a manslaughter conviction.at the very minimum I could expect a animal cruelty charge to be brought against me for many things including abandonment to not bloody feeding them (a bit ironic don't you think) and also BANNED from keeping animals for doing this.i have a dog so defo wouldn't want to open a can of worms by opening the gate.even tho there not my horses untill there legally removed there my responsibility and I can even be sued myself for damages if they for example mess up somebody's garden damage property etc as there on my land and it would be me who allowed them to do this by letting them out ( basically the law is fully against me)it's the same with burglars if they break into your house and trip over your step and hurts himself even tho his illegally there he can sue you(the worlds gone crazy) so this is my plan.i have to call out a vet to check over and scan the horses for microchips etc.this could lead me to a persons name but was told it proberly won't due to there experience in these cases.i then have to put up a notice to say animals abandoned etc and they will be removed.if after 21 days they are not gone I need to start court proceedings for the judge to sign them over to me.depending on the horses identity I will then need to pay to get them microchipped and passported or if they already have a passport pay for a duplicate to be issued.then I can pay a bailiff to remove them from my land but would also need to pay transporting and storage costs witch is going to be very expensive.i could try to sell them myself (good luck with that) or even attempt a rescue center (again good luck with that) as the horses are not technically in need of a rescue nobody wants to no.thats if it all doesn't my way with no disputes from the gypsys.they have been known to dispute every little thing down to fake tenancy agreements to verbal contracts to you name it they try it.this would off course make court costs sky rocket witch I'd need to pay and claim back of them (not going to happen) it can also make the court cases take forever just as when they illegally set up sites.dale farm took ten years to evict them if I'm right? That would cost me thousands and defiantly outweigh the value of my property.in terms of grazing rights there is such a thing on common and private land but a certain time period must pass first.im still waiting for clarification on this.ive been told to have a budget of a minimum of £2000 and that's if it goes according to plan.if not triple that.i think it's so unfair the law is totally on there side and I can't just simply remove them.i asked about ploughing and was told try the notice for now and more laws and costs will have to be looked up as that could actually make my matters a whole lot worse.ive also been told if they are indeed claiming adverse possession that  the owner could be excluded from the land untill a court order has been approved and they could even sue ME for trespass as that's the whole point of adverse possession and untill a court order has been approved I could be liable.it gets worse and worse.im 150 miles away so won't go back to the land untill next weekend now.i will obviously keep you all updated on how it all goes and thank you for all your input


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## honetpot (18 November 2013)

When I had my unwanted lodger I found out all the information you have obtained. If you speak to solicitors they go for worst case and think of the costs. I knew someone who does security and he gave me hope. Pin up your eviction notices and get someone to keep pinning them up when they rip them down. You do not need a solicitor to get a court order, if you go on the Court web sites they give you information and my friend who is the letting agent says if you have a problem ring the Clerk to the courts. Once you get the court order you can either get the bailiffs in, but my security mate said by then they usually go which mine did before I even went to the court. My unwanted guest, left when I put the eviction notice on the gates and I managed to find out where they were living and sent one there.
  They are a bit like professional thieves, they know the law and work on the fact that most people do not and therefore get what they can while they can. When they find out you know your rights they will probably move them.


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## MadBlackLab (18 November 2013)

And travellers wonder why there is so much prejudice towards them but this just proves it. They want all for nothing and the laws of this land seem to allow it be. I'm sorry your not having any luck but please keep us posted


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## RunToEarth (18 November 2013)

Mrjones said:



			Hi thanks for your replys.ive been on the phone all day to many solicitors etc and it seems the only thing I can do is serve legal documents on unknown persons. As it's a civil offence they are not legally required to give me there name or address etc so I have to post it on the gate to unknown persons.ive spoken to bailiffs solicitors etc and they are saying the same.as much as I can charge for 3 years grazing I will never see a penny.i would need a county court order to do this but again don't no there names and even if I did and had a court order granted there's not much I could send a bailiff to take.there caravan is classed as there home so no bailiff could or would touch that as it's against there human rights apparently.i read online about the travellers who brought a £30000 caravan for £200 (or so they claim) it was stolen from a elderly couple and the police have refused to take it back and return it due to there human rights.there cars are all on finance hp etc so they can't be taken anyway and there vans are and tools etc are classed as tools of the trade so again immune from any form of enforcement.i asked about taking the gate of and was told it would be very unwise to do this.as the horses are on my land I am liable for them.if they get lost run away etc guess who has to foot the bill? ME if they get hit by a car etc I'm also liable and in cases of a crash and somebody dies etc expect a manslaughter conviction.at the very minimum I could expect a animal cruelty charge to be brought against me for many things including abandonment to not bloody feeding them (a bit ironic don't you think) and also BANNED from keeping animals for doing this.i have a dog so defo wouldn't want to open a can of worms by opening the gate.even tho there not my horses untill there legally removed there my responsibility and I can even be sued myself for damages if they for example mess up somebody's garden damage property etc as there on my land and it would be me who allowed them to do this by letting them out ( basically the law is fully against me)it's the same with burglars if they break into your house and trip over your step and hurts himself even tho his illegally there he can sue you(the worlds gone crazy) so this is my plan.i have to call out a vet to check over and scan the horses for microchips etc.this could lead me to a persons name but was told it proberly won't due to there experience in these cases.i then have to put up a notice to say animals abandoned etc and they will be removed.if after 21 days they are not gone I need to start court proceedings for the judge to sign them over to me.depending on the horses identity I will then need to pay to get them microchipped and passported or if they already have a passport pay for a duplicate to be issued.then I can pay a bailiff to remove them from my land but would also need to pay transporting and storage costs witch is going to be very expensive.i could try to sell them myself (good luck with that) or even attempt a rescue center (again good luck with that) as the horses are not technically in need of a rescue nobody wants to no.thats if it all doesn't my way with no disputes from the gypsys.they have been known to dispute every little thing down to fake tenancy agreements to verbal contracts to you name it they try it.this would off course make court costs sky rocket witch I'd need to pay and claim back of them (not going to happen) it can also make the court cases take forever just as when they illegally set up sites.dale farm took ten years to evict them if I'm right? That would cost me thousands and defiantly outweigh the value of my property.in terms of grazing rights there is such a thing on common and private land but a certain time period must pass first.im still waiting for clarification on this.ive been told to have a budget of a minimum of £2000 and that's if it goes according to plan.if not triple that.i think it's so unfair the law is totally on there side and I can't just simply remove them.i asked about ploughing and was told try the notice for now and more laws and costs will have to be looked up as that could actually make my matters a whole lot worse.ive also been told if they are indeed claiming adverse possession that  the owner could be excluded from the land untill a court order has been approved and they could even sue ME for trespass as that's the whole point of adverse possession and untill a court order has been approved I could be liable.it gets worse and worse.im 150 miles away so won't go back to the land untill next weekend now.i will obviously keep you all updated on how it all goes and thank you for all your input
		
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Hi, 

I've had to deal with quite a few similar cases at work and it isn't fun. 

I would serve a 14 day abandonment notice with a clear effect date on it - basically stating that if the animals are not removed within 14 days you will assume legal responsibility for them. Stick asd many as possible everywhere with a camera date on them. 

Ring your local kennelman from the hunt and ask whether they would be able to come and take a look at them to give you a quote to dispose of them, and expect to give him £20 for his petrol. 

If they are "travellers" the sight of a knackerman will have them packed up and gone within 24 hours, it is usually my last resort but hasn't failed yet. 

Whereabouts in the country are you?


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## honetpot (18 November 2013)

RunToEarth said:



			Hi, 

I've had to deal with quite a few similar cases at work and it isn't fun. 

I would serve a 14 day abandonment notice with a clear effect date on it - basically stating that if the animals are not removed within 14 days you will assume legal responsibility for them. Stick asd many as possible everywhere with a camera date on them. 

Ring your local kennelman from the hunt and ask whether they would be able to come and take a look at them to give you a quote to dispose of them, and expect to give him £20 for his petrol. 

If they are "travellers" the sight of a knackerman will have them packed up and gone within 24 hours, it is usually my last resort but hasn't failed yet. 

Whereabouts in the country are you?
		
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Nice one.


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## Bigbenji (18 November 2013)

I know a farmer who gave notice then on the last day moved in with the digger and starting digging a big trench round the field but leaving the side where the entrance was. He went back the following day to finish and surprise surprise they had left. 
Op in your shoes I would play by the book and serve notice. Chances are they will go on the last day but if they do leave then plough or secure asap as some have been known to return a day or so later knowing full well you have to serve notice all over again :/


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## cremedemonthe (18 November 2013)

runtoearth said:



			hi, 

i've had to deal with quite a few similar cases at work and it isn't fun. 

I would serve a 14 day abandonment notice with a clear effect date on it - basically stating that if the animals are not removed within 14 days you will assume legal responsibility for them. Stick asd many as possible everywhere with a camera date on them. 

Ring your local kennelman from the hunt and ask whether they would be able to come and take a look at them to give you a quote to dispose of them, and expect to give him £20 for his petrol. 

If they are "travellers" the sight of a knackerman will have them packed up and gone within 24 hours, it is usually my last resort but hasn't failed yet. 

Whereabouts in the country are you?
		
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great post!


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## mandwhy (18 November 2013)

honetpot said:



			When I had my unwanted lodger I found out all the information you have obtained. If you speak to solicitors they go for worst case and think of the costs. I knew someone who does security and he gave me hope. Pin up your eviction notices and get someone to keep pinning them up when they rip them down. You do not need a solicitor to get a court order, if you go on the Court web sites they give you information and my friend who is the letting agent says if you have a problem ring the Clerk to the courts. Once you get the court order you can either get the bailiffs in, but my security mate said by then they usually go which mine did before I even went to the court. My unwanted guest, left when I put the eviction notice on the gates and I managed to find out where they were living and sent one there.
  They are a bit like professional thieves, they know the law and work on the fact that most people do not and therefore get what they can while they can. When they find out you know your rights they will probably move them.
		
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RunToEarth said:



			Hi, 

I've had to deal with quite a few similar cases at work and it isn't fun. 

I would serve a 14 day abandonment notice with a clear effect date on it - basically stating that if the animals are not removed within 14 days you will assume legal responsibility for them. Stick asd many as possible everywhere with a camera date on them. 

Ring your local kennelman from the hunt and ask whether they would be able to come and take a look at them to give you a quote to dispose of them, and expect to give him £20 for his petrol. 

If they are "travellers" the sight of a knackerman will have them packed up and gone within 24 hours, it is usually my last resort but hasn't failed yet. 

Whereabouts in the country are you?
		
Click to expand...


I think I'd do a combination of these! Also if you are going to do anything that poses a danger to the horses like ploughing etc (wouldnt surprise me if you had a pregnant mare on there) or taking off the gate then you need to warn them to move and make sure the horses can't come to any harm (secure them somehow somewhere) but I'd also try to come across like you wouldn't think twice about having them 'disposed of' as they will try to play on the fact that most people wouldn't do this.

I don't think you need to go for expensive option, I think you need to play them at their own games!


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