# Who owns the foal



## hock5 (15 April 2012)

Last spring we tried various times and by different methods to get a mare iin foal. We were informed by vet that she wasn't after the fourth attempt. On his advise that she wasn't (by scan) we cut our losses and sold her - stipulating the price reflected she was not in foal. Now new owner has contacted us to say she id due to foal, and could she have the covering certificate. 
OH considers deal null and void, and wants to recover mare and foal, other party wants to retain mare and foal - its a huge mess becoming nevermind issue with vet and his side of things.

Any advice similar expeience is welcomed.


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## Wagtail (15 April 2012)

The new owner will own the foal. Hopefully she will also look upon the mare as something more than a foaling machine.


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## Trolt (15 April 2012)

Seeing as new owner has paid for the horse, and then paid for the keep of the mare throughout winter, not to mention any additional costs that will now occur with her being in foal (specialist feed, need for a stable etc). Then I'd imagine the ownership belongs to the new owners? 

Your issue should be with the vet, not the new owners. Sadly I think this is a situation that you just have to accept. Your only hope is that the foal will not suit the new owners, or they will reach a point when they cannot keep it - and then you may be able to buy the foal from them.


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## Alec Swan (15 April 2012)

hock5 said:



			.......we cut our losses and sold her - stipulating the price reflected she was not in foal. *Do you have this in writing? And even if it was,  that the price "reflected" that she wan't in foal,  was there mention of a correctable sale,  assuming that you'd got things wrong?*

Now new owner has contacted us to say she id due to foal, and could she have the covering certificate. 
OH considers deal null and void, and wants to recover mare and foal, other party wants to retain mare and foal - its a huge mess becoming nevermind issue with vet and his side of things.

Any advice similar expeience is welcomed.
		
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I'm no legal authority,  BUT,  if you have a written,  or provable agreement that the mare was sold with a *"proviso"*,  then she should become,  once again your property,  BUT,  if you are to reclaim the mare,  on the grounds of your agreement,  then you may well,  quite reasonably,  be expected to pay for the mare's keep,  plus the travelling costs,  plus the Vet's attention,  +++++!!

If you sold your mare upon your Vet's advice,  then they may well prefer to make an insurance claim,  and one from which you'll benefit,  rather than take the hit of the poor publicity,  but that's a maybe.

If the new owner of your mare asks for a CC,  I'd let them have it,  as all that they will need to do is apply for a D&A test,  wont they?

Alec.


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## rossiroo (15 April 2012)

"Hopefully she will also look upon the mare as something more than a foaling machine." well said wagtail


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## HBM1 (15 April 2012)

Wagtail said:



			The new owner will own the foal. Hopefully she will also look upon the mare as something more than a foaling machine.
		
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couldn't agree more, no thought at all for the poor mare who would have to move yet again and only seems to be wanted as she is now in foal.  A better thing to have done may have been to offer to meet half the costs of keeping the foal, vet fees etc, and share half the sale amount - as well as making an offer for half the mare's keep fees since they have owned her as that is a large part of getting a foal anyway.  I cannot see this as the new owner's fault, they now have additional costs to meet that they were not expecting, not to mention the "hassle" of foal watch etc.


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## Miss L Toe (15 April 2012)

Well the new owner took a slight risk that she was in foal, presumably she was sold as a barren mare.
Now they want a covering certificate, perhaps you could ask for payment to part cover your costs which might give you some recompense, to be honest you sold the mare, they bought it, they could be sending you a bill for keep of mare etc etc.
You have no ownership of the foal, how could think otherwise............


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## hock5 (15 April 2012)

The mare was of excellent lines, significant value and young, the foal would be a considerable dressage prospect. Thus agreed the vets contribution was siginificant but that will be a seperate action. Due to the value of foal and covering cert - who should pay for that as its not a small sum, and the insemination fee last time round was a figure not to be sneezeed at - we would have no issue in paying her keep, vet bills, and return transportation.


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## hock5 (15 April 2012)

yes mare was sold on basis of being barren


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## Miss L Toe (15 April 2012)

hock5 said:



			The mare was of excellent lines, significant value and young, the foal would be a considerable dressage prospect. Thus agreed the vets contribution was siginificant but that will be a seperate action. Due to the value of foal and covering cert - who should pay for that as its not a small sum, and the insemination fee last time round was a figure not to be sneezeed at - we would have no issue in paying her keep, vet bills, and return transportation.
		
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You seem to think you have some pecuniary interest in the foal, well sorry, but you sold it and  you have to accept the loss. Any monetary transfer is entirely up to the owner of the mare and foal. If they elect not to pay for the covering certificate, then I assume that the foal will be of much lesser value because of it.
If I were them , I would be glad to own a nice mare which is a proven breeder, any demanding attitude from the vendor would make me rather antagonistic.


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## hock5 (15 April 2012)

If the deal was for a proven barren mare and sold clearly on that understanding - the deal should or would be declared null and void, to protect either side from a financial advantage or for taking advantage of the the other party.


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## hock5 (15 April 2012)

Yes they could in theory, but would have to pay for the covering fee - which would be considerable.


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## hock5 (15 April 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			You seem to think you have some pecuniary interest in the foal, well sorry, but you sold it and  you have to accept the loss. Any monetary transfer is entirely up to the owner of the mare and foal. If they elect not to pay for the covering certificate, then I assume that the foal will be of much lesser value because of it.
If I were them , I would be glad to own a nice mare which is a proven breeder, any demanding attitude from the vendor would make me rather antagonistic.
		
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What was clearly sold was a barren mare!Anything else would nullify the deal.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (15 April 2012)

I recently bought a mare (early feb) which was sold as a dry mare & 'believed not in foal' was put on the bottom of the reciept, as their usual caveat when selling.

I contacted the vendor a couple of weeks ago as I *think* I may have a BOGOF - to let them know that I *might* need a service slip in order to register a foal if this happens. 

This is a pedigree mare and I'm not bothered if I do have an extra (have had foaling experience with my own in the past)  - the original vendor is fine too, tho did sigh sadly as this mare's progeny have been good sellers previously.
They also said if this does go down the line & that if I do sell, then they would like 1st refusal. 
However, I still have time to go as due date would be around 5th June, and am hoping mare is not as was going to get on with backing her for ride & drive


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## Spook (15 April 2012)

We've had a couple of mares who turned out to be in foal when we bought them, we have on both occasions kept the foal.

What were the "terms" with the stud? No foal no fee? No foal free return? No foal Oct 1st concession? Is there money due to the stud? Have the stud issed a covering cert. yet? Do you have it? It depends what the circumstances are and I suspect that the mares owner could get proof of breeding any way. What a pity you sold her, hindsight is a great thing. I think the foal belongs to the mares owner.


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## Kaylum (15 April 2012)

I would be suing the vets tbh.


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## cptrayes (15 April 2012)

hock5 said:



			yes mare was sold on basis of being barren
		
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How was this worded?

If I was buying a mare to ride from a stud I would want exactly that warranty, because I would not want a foal, or the loss of use of the mare. Could it read as protection for the buyer, not the seller?

Unless it was specifically worded that the sale was null and void should the mare produce a live foal or mentioned a specific sum of money to be paid should she produce a foal, then  I don't think you have a leg to stand on legally. It is not the buyer's fault that you sold her a foal she did not ask for or expect.

Morally - I think if you were so desperate to hedge your bets you should have hung on to the mare for longer until a pregancy diagnosis was irrefutable. Surely everyone involved in breeding understands that scans and pregnancy tests can be wrong?  Personally, I hope your vet's insurer doesn't pay out, it will just put up vet fees for everyone else if vets are sued for making the best judgement that they can with the information that they have on the day.

How many weeks was the foetus when the mare was sold?


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## Wagtail (15 April 2012)

Kaylum said:



			I would be suing the vets tbh.
		
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It is a common mistake. The mare that is about to foal at my yard was scanned as not in foal and so returned to the stud in time for her next season. She was there a week and during this time scanned for ovulation, at which time the embryo was discovered. The owner did not sue the vets for the added expense of her livery whilst at the stud.

The OP should have waited a month and had the mare rescanned before selling.


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## mon (15 April 2012)

Working with animals only the fact that hey will at sometime die is guaranteed no test is 100 percent, I would say put down to experience and new owner now owns foal and all costs risks involved.


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## cptrayes (15 April 2012)

hock5 said:



			yes mare was sold on basis of being barren
		
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hock5 said:



			What was clearly sold was a barren mare!Anything else would nullify the deal.
		
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I don't think it works that way. If you are sold something which turns out to be less than the vendor said, you have a claim. If it turns out to be more than they said, they cannot simply take it back unless there was an explicit statement in the contract that they could do so.

Someone who sells a painting from the attic and warrants it as "Not a Rembrandt" does not have the right to recover the painting if it is subsequently discovered to be a Rembrandt unless it was sold with that explicitly stated.

We need to  know the wording of the contract that was struck.


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## magic104 (15 April 2012)

I am sure hock5 you have been around long enough to know that these tests can go wrong.  If you have a written agreement that you are selling a barren mare, BUT if she is found to be in-foal has to be returned, then you might have re-course.  

How long did you wait before selling her & what have the new owners been doing with her (as they thought she was barren)?  What have you offered the new owners as way of compensation?  There is only part of the story here not sure how anyone can really advise.


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## Wagtail (15 April 2012)

Sounds from the first post, as though the wording was 'price reflects the fact that the mare is not in foal'. In which case the buyer is not obliged to return the mare and or foal.


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## hock5 (15 April 2012)

I am sorry but vet is supposed to be highly educated, experienced in what he making a judgement on, unfortunately this is not his first time making this call regards one of our mares. Also if his judgement is wrong, he then (his manner is quiet arrogant) re-starts or starts a program of regumate/prostaglandin to bring them into season, so if he did get it wrong, it would abort the fetus in any case. Now concerned as to vets general competencies!


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## mon (15 April 2012)

Issue more with vets than new owner then, should you move vets if lost confidence in them.


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## hock5 (15 April 2012)

well new owner, left her in herd of other mares, waiting till spring to put her in foal, at some point last year new owners daugther tried to ride her and found her too up hill for her so was never ridden again. Again we offered to buy mare back, and transport her home ourselves. Even discussed paying any costs livery etc - but although door not closed on discussion there was little encouragement to discuss more with new owner


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## cptrayes (15 April 2012)

Hock5 please answer the two important questions:

 - how many weeks was the mare in foal when the scan failed to pick it up

- what was the exact wording of the contract that was struck

?


You tried to buy the mare back when you still thought she was barren? This is reading more and more like you just made a sale which you have since regretted. Sorry, but what's done is done and they own the mare. Let it go.


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## hock5 (15 April 2012)

thus if in fact is actually in foal - deal is void


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## Maesfen (15 April 2012)

I agree with others that say the foal belongs to the new owner.
TBH, you sound as if you're not short of pennies (which is neither here nor there but it does make you sound greedy) that you are miffed that you're losing out on a foal of your choosing rather than congratulating the new owner on their luck at your expense; I can't see why you can't suck it up as a mistake on your part for selling her too early before the pregnancy was apparent and send them the CC.  
The only person you should be pursuing is the vet, not the new owner as the vet was the catalyst of you selling the mare in the first place.


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## cptrayes (15 April 2012)

hock5 said:



			thus if in fact is actually in foal - deal is void
		
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The deal is only void if your contract explicitly stated that it would be void if the mare was in foal.

DID IT?


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## Biscuit (15 April 2012)

- Unless there was a very clear stipulation in the contract along the lines of "should the mare be in foal, the foal belonging to the seller" I don't see how the seller would have a claim in the foal. Not the buyer's fault that the seller/seller's vet made a mistake ? Hard to comment on this unless we know the exact wording of the contract.

- If the mare was sold as barren, and turned out to be in foal, then IMO it is the buyer that has reason for complaint here, as they did not get what they bargained for. They may have lost a competition season for the mare?

- On the other hand, I don't think the buyer has any right to the covering certificate, since the covering was not part of the deal... 

This could be the basis of an amicable settlement -  What if the seller would offer to hand over the covering certificate against (some of) the money they lost on the stud fee? If not, the buyer would still have the "free" foal but not the papers.  

I'd also try to get an amicable arrangement with the vet, if the seller is happy with their work in genera and it was just a one-off mistake. Rather than sue them, explain the situation to them and ask if they can give you a good deal on this year's stud work in return?


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## Alexart (15 April 2012)

I'd say the new owner owns the foal regardless of wether it was bought as not in foal, you only know it is in foal as they have stated it is, if they had said nothing you would have been none the wiser, it would be the same as me selling a horse and it winning HOYS a few weeks later - I don't go and ask for the horse back just because it is now worth more.  I would accept you made a mistake and sold it too soon to find out 100% if it is in foal - mistakes can and do happen, vets are only human and embryos can be well hidden, so I would at best be happy with a first refusal on the foal.  If the new owners want the covering certificate then as long as they pay for everything then I see no problem putting them in contact with the stud - denying them that is pointless and petty.
Also if the mare was that brilliant then why be in such a hurry to sell her on just because she was believed to have failed to get in foal?  For young mares I'd give them a couple of seasons to get in foal before selling on a good mare as barren, chalk it down to experience.


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## Oscar (15 April 2012)

Current owner owns the mare and foal - simple as that! You sold a horse "presumed" to be not in foal.  Your loss their gain or maybe not if they do not actually want a foal!

And what if there are complications, and the mare dies giving birth or there are serious complications with either the mare or foal?  Would you be giving a refund or money towards vets bills then?


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## Hollycatt (15 April 2012)

You sold the mare as she was. For better or worse. As others have said, unless you had a very carefully worded contract you don't have a leg to stand on. 

I have read about similar problems in the US. Different legal system but I never heard of anyone getting the foal or mare back or successfully suing the vet as this is a difficult area and easy to miss. Perhaps their insurance would settle though - you never know. I have heard that depending on registry, the foal may be able to be registered by the buyer as DNA will prove parentage. The stallion owner may issue a covering cert to the buyer for a small fee. Depends on the terms though. Maybe the cases I am thinking of were mainly frozen, so straws paid for outright and not a NFNF/NFFR situation

Taking all these things into consideration I would be NICE to the buyer. If you want the foal ask for first refusal and maybe get it for under market rate. Make them feel a bit sorry for you, not make them pissed off


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## skint1 (15 April 2012)

hock5 said:



			If the deal was for a proven barren mare and sold clearly on that understanding - the deal should or would be declared null and void, to protect either side from a financial advantage or for taking advantage of the the other party.
		
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If I had bought your mare and was now having this conversation with you I would consider returning the  mare and foal providing you reimbursed me in advance and in cash  for all my livery, vet, farrier, tack, rugs, feed etc that I spent out whilst the mare (and foal) were in my care. After all, they bought a "barren" mare, indicates to me that they weren't planning to have the responsibility and expense of a pregnant mare and eventually a foal.  What if the foal dies? Would you still want the mare back then? What if the mare dies giving birth?  Sorry I think you need to cut your losses.


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## magic104 (15 April 2012)

hock5 said:



			I am sorry but vet is supposed to be highly educated, experienced in what he making a judgement on, unfortunately this is not his first time making this call regards one of our mares. Also if his judgement is wrong, he then (his manner is quiet arrogant) re-starts or starts a program of regumate/prostaglandin to bring them into season, so if he did get it wrong, it would abort the fetus in any case. Now concerned as to vets general competencies!
		
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Oh well, more fool you, sorry to be blunt, but you used a vet who has made a similar error before & dont think to get a 2nd opinion.  Perhaps you ought to change vet.  I would be surprised if you have any claim on said foal, so as another poster has said chalk it up to experience & move on.


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## Amymay (15 April 2012)

You have no claim on Foal.


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## Spring Feather (15 April 2012)

It completely depends on how you worded your Bill of Sale.  You have not told us how you worded this so it implies that you did not have a sales clause drawn up and thus you have no legs to stand on.  If you do have a sales clause then what is it and what does it SPECIFICALLY say?  Stop being vague about it or we can't help you 

The vet does not sound like he knows what he is doing, but your story also does not ring so true.  You tried to breed her on 4 heat cycles and none were successful?  (Well obviously the final breeding was successful otherwise your purchaser wouldn't be asking for the covering certificate.)  Your vet is flipping between Regumate and PG   You need a new vet who can, at the very least, read ultrasounds!  Crikey even I can read and ultrasound and see the foetus, it's really not rocket science and if it hides on the first U/S you'll not be able to miss it on subsequent ones.  Get yourself a proper repro vet who has good quality and up to the minute equipment and knowledge.  

If the resolution is the mare and foal remain with the purchaser then you could offer to get the purchaser the breeding certificate however if it were me (and readers, it wouldn't be I hasten to add! I do not use rubbish vets for breeding) I would be asking the purchasers for recompense to get it for them.  I don't know how much you spent on breeding this mare but I frequently go over the 2-3 grand mark just to get the mare bred!  And that's why this would not happen to me because if I've just spent 3 grand getting a mare in foal then I'm going to make very sure that she is or isn't pregnant before putting her on the market for sale.


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## Spook (16 April 2012)

It would be interesting to know how stallion keepers think about this one?

Would you be willing to provide the new owner with a C.C., provided all fees had been paid? 

If there had been a consession would you provide a C.C. o payment of owed fees?

If a C.C.had already been provided to the vendor at time of covering, and in the event of them not being willing to pass the C.C. on, would you be prepared to accept DNA evidence for the purposes of registration? presumbly the stud owner has at sometime had a passport for the mare proving her identity....... sorry lots of questions.


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## JanetGeorge (16 April 2012)

My experience was not quite the same as this one as I was buyig brood mares.  I bought 2 from the same breeder - one was sold 'in foal' and the other had been scanned empty (and was a lot cheaper.)  Over the winter, the nif mare didn't look right - she had a big belly and was a bit poor - but I didn't suspect she WAS in foal (knowing the stud had a good stud vet!)  I wormed her again, upped her feed, and she improved a bit.  The in foal mare slipped a colt at 290 days - and a few days later the nif mare gave me a filly!

The breeder (who also owned the stallion) was a bit miffed she'd let the mare go cheap when she WAS in foal - but gave me a covering certificate.  If the other mare hadn't lost her foal I think she MIGHT have asked a service fee for the covering certificate - and I would have paid it - but under the circumstances ....


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## Fahrenheit (18 April 2012)

Sorry, but if you sold the mare as a 'proven barren broodmare' and she has now been found to be infoal, then you still have no claim on the foal UNLESS your agreement stated specifically that 'if she was indeed found to be infoal that the sale agreement would then be null and void' or words similarly saying that the foal would be your property. 
If I was the new owners of the mare, I would be pretty miffed right now at your implications that they are not honouring an agreement that in the words you have used so far doesn't actually exist! 
If I was in your shoes I would be helping them get a covering certificate and hoping that by being helpful they would, as a good will gesture, either pay the stud fee (which they do not have to do as you were responsible for responsibilities of ownership at the time of the mare being put in foal) or if they sell the foal, again as a good will gesture, they would give you a cut from the sale, but if you are treating them badly over the matter then I feel they are just as likely to tell you to shove off. You have sold the mare end of!


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## Spyda (18 April 2012)

Does the new owner know which stallion the foal is by? If so, if I were them, I'd be contacting the stud which stands the stallion and be asking them for the necessary covering cert. If stud asked for fee to be paid again to do this, I'd do it. Not sure I'd rub the old owner's nose in it by asking for a free covering cert for a foal I hadn't actually planned upon. I know in _theory_ they can, but common sense should indicate this is request is only likely to aggravate the previous owner who's suddenly discovered they'd lost out on the foal they'd spend money on AI to concieve. If I had been the new owners, I'd have kept my mouth shut! 

OP: Unless the reciept of sale for the mare _specifically_ stated in BLACK and WHITE that the sale of the mare would be cancelled and reversed if the mare is found to be in foal to 'x' (the AI stallion used before they purchased the mare) then I don't think you've a leg to stand on. Plus, if your original reciept of sale _did_ clearly state this, then surely who's responsible for paying what, in this eventuality ocurring, was covered in detail in the text of the document? And you would not need to be on here asking what to do.


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