# My horse is 'seriously underweight'



## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

This could get lengthy so sorry in advance lol!
So lately i've noticed someone has been sneaking my horse hayledge    (something he is not meant to be getting fed for several reasons!!) And due to this ive noticed he's been getting a bit fat again lately. Yesterday morning when i arrived at the yard i caught someone in the act told them and there is now a sign up on his door clealy stating he is not to be fed anything by anoyone without my permission! 

When we were back up that night the woman who was feeding him turned round to my mum and said you know that horse is 'seriously under weight' i was fuming when i heard this as i know he most definitely is not under weight! She also told us because of his large joints he needs to have a lot more weight on him, i also dont agree with this! He has no topline because he is too skinny, no he has no topline as he is still a baby and still needs to build up a bit more muscle on his neck, somthing i am working on right now! And also he is not being fed enough because one haynet is not enough for a horse at night, bearing in mind he is out for 10-12 hours a day and then get aa stuffed haynet at night, and a feed everyday, seems enough to me!

My mum being my mum doesnt have a clue about horses so couldnt really say anything back to her but she later asked some others on the yard what they thought and her replies were either 'he's perfect' 'there is nothing wrong with him' but my mum would like to hear some of your opinions of my horses weight! Please be honest, thanks!
Photo's arent great but i will try and get some more tonight if need be


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## joeanne (8 June 2012)

Looks perfectly fine to me. Perhaps the lady feeding him thinks he ought to be "show condition"


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## meesha (8 June 2012)

Helloo -and hello mum !

I would personally say he is absolutely spot on !

He is gorgeous and this time of year you would not want him any bigger as the grass is coming through well.

Give your mum a condition scoring sheet or even better next time the vet is down for jabs get your mum to be there so the vet can briefly explain how to judge a horses weight.

Drives me mad that the "norm" is overweight horses - I struggle to keep the weight off my lad - it is hard but your chap is spot on - can just see outline of ribs, no gutter over back, no crest and what looks to be easily felt hip bone (but not protruding).

Keep those signs up !!!


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## Gracie21 (8 June 2012)

I would be FUMING if I were you! I'd go completely and utterly bonkers at whoever it was, how very irresponsible of them. 

He looks fine! Pfttt some people lol!


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## Wagtail (8 June 2012)

Ok, your horse looks just right to me. However, he looks just right even though someone has been feeding him extra for who knows how long? This would suggest that he needs 'that extra' to maintain his current condition. If, however, this extra feeding has just happened very recently (only for a day or so) then he has obviously been getting all that he needs. Hope that makes sense?


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## lcharles (8 June 2012)

Too many over weight horse are about which is why people think fit and healthy horses are 'underweight' x he looks lovely x Few people said my horse was underweight when he was hunting/team chasing fit, we have a yard full of happy hackers with over weight horse x Ignore the women and carry on as you are, hes gorgeous x


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## redredruby (8 June 2012)

I don't think he looks underweight at all! Is he finishing his hay really quickly? Could that be why she has been giving him hay?


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## Shysmum (8 June 2012)

He is in fab condition, especially as he's growing ! more weight would put strain on his joints.....

I would be apoplectic with rage - YO needs to sort this asap. This is just NOT on. 

Let us know what happens. sm xx


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## Amymay (8 June 2012)

When were these photo's taken?


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## Moggy in Manolos (8 June 2012)

joeanne said:



			Looks perfectly fine to me. Perhaps the lady feeding him thinks he ought to be "show condition" 

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This /\ It is infuriating, I think I would go bananas, well maybe not, I am not like that, but I would say my piece, how dare people feed your horse, it looks spot on. Some people have some very skewed ideas of horses condition these days, shame on them


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## Cocorules (8 June 2012)

Looks spot on to me. Really annoys me that people are so ignorant about what the right weight actually is.


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## rara007 (8 June 2012)

Your horse looks in similar condition to mine, though yours is slightly better cover and whilst I don't think it's 'seriously underweight' I am trying to get more condition on him, and I'm certainly not a fan of fat horses but I want him to have enough weight to be able to get some neck and cover the poverty lines on his bum with muscle.


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## zaminda (8 June 2012)

Is the womans own horse fat? Personally I would be tearing shreds off her, and telling her youngsters should be on the slim side, it gets my goat seeing fat youngsters, causes so many joint problems.


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## Goldenstar (8 June 2012)

I dont think he's underweight but be sure be has come high quality protein In his diet to give him what he needs for muscle growth I use micronised linseed and Alfafa .
People are just getting more and more used to fat horses being and seeing that as normal.


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Ok, your horse looks just right to me. However, he looks just right even though someone has been feeding him extra for who knows how long? This would suggest that he needs 'that extra' to maintain his current condition. If, however, this extra feeding has just happened very recently (only for a day or so) then he has obviously been getting all that he needs. Hope that makes sense?
		
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Yea i know what you are saying, it hasnt been a constant everyday thing has been happening every few days for a few weeks now(not sure exactly)! He is fed the same as what he has always been fed for this time of the year although he is slightly more covered this year, im assuming due to the fact he's been getting extra...


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

amymay said:



			When were these photo's taken?
		
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All last week apart from photo 2 taken last night


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## Amymay (8 June 2012)

Then the horse looks ok(ish) to me, and bearing in mind they have been fed extra........


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## lachlanandmarcus (8 June 2012)

Show them some black and white photos of horses from the past, show horses well cared for ones. 

Show condition is massively fatter than it used to be and is skewing this persons idea of how a horse should look.

Feeding someone elses horse without permission is about the rudest thing someone can do unless the horse is neglected/abandoned. 

Ask them whether they would like you to give their kids lots of crisps and sweets every day....

Horse looks fine, and just like with big dogs, big horses should be on the light side as youngsters to protect their joints. Keep doing what you are doing.


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## Toast (8 June 2012)

I agree with amymay. Looks ok to me having been given the extra. Though, not excusing this liveries actions, I would've been fuming. The last yard I was on was really rough and nobody knew the first thing about feeding their horses, think fat section d's on frickers conditioning mix. Someone kept feeding my box rested 2yo masses of carrots and I couldn't figure out why he was absolutely off his trolley. When I round out I went skywards. I didn't stop on that yard long. Hope you can get this woman told.


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## amandap (8 June 2012)

Is he out of hay when they are feeding him? I too agree about considering how long the extra feeding has been going on. I am constantly reviewing the quantities my lot get. Getting the balance of forage right so they aren't left with nothing and don't put weight on is hard work and taxing for my tiny brain. lol


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## Wagtail (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			Yea i know what you are saying, it hasnt been a constant everyday thing has been happening every few days for a few weeks now(not sure exactly)! He is fed the same as what he has always been fed for this time of the year although he is slightly more covered this year, im assuming due to the fact he's been getting extra...
		
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I really wouldn't want any less weight on him. If he were mine I would up his hay myself. No excuse, I know for the woman who has been feeding him, but it sounds as though he is pretty hungry, and leaving a horse without forage can lead to troubles and expense along the line that you really do not want to get into! Perhaps you could leave an extra net out for this woman to give him?


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## quirky (8 June 2012)

How old is he, you say he's a baby ... 4,5? 

Do you have any pictures of him prior to him having extra from the other woman?


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## nikCscott (8 June 2012)

Looks good to me.

I wouldn't want any less cover either though.


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## redriverrock (8 June 2012)

My initial reaction was how dare someone else do and say this..the horse clearly is in nice condition for his age and workload. Personally I would be fuming at this woman and she certainly has acted totally out of order (imo). However I would have to agree that the extras she has been giving him are clearly not harming him. Put a stop to her feeding your horse and provide extra forage yourself. You could then keep a closer eye on what he actually needs to keep in good (not fat) condition and alter accordingly. My TB has 3 large haylage nets every night...the haffie and welshie who are kept in a starvation paddock over night have the equivalent of 1 small haynet to share and the haffie still needs working quite hard every day to keep him in a fit condition. This just shows you the difference between 1 horse and another! 
Your horse is certainly not starving but the extras he has been getting have probably helped him look as good as he does.


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## Ladyinred (8 June 2012)

Agree with the others, if this is how he looks on 'extra' then he probably does need a bit more. Up his hay and possibly put it in a smaller holed net so he doesn't eat it up too fast and stand around looking pathetic! Lovely horse.


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## Dolcé (8 June 2012)

If he is turned out on decent grass then I wouldn't be worrying, he looks ok and will pile it on over the summer.  Personally I would have just cut his hay back and let her continue feeding him her haylage, it is always good to cut your feeding costs and if someone else wants to pay for it then let them get on with it.  He certainly isn't seriously underweight or even underweight for that matter, when he gets a bit of topline on he will be fine, nice boy!


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

Thanks for the feedback guys really appreciate it!
Once this extra hayledge is cut out, which it now should be, i will monitor him on what he is getting and if he is looking like he needs some more then obviously i will give him it but he does hold his weight well so i dont think he will lose condition on what he should be getting, we shall see though!
Just so fustrating when people interfere like this really annoys and upsets me to be honest!


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## Kallibear (8 June 2012)

Weight looks ideal and I wouldn't want any more on him. 

I would however give him far more than one haynet a night!  If he's out for only 10-12hrs, that's 12-14hrs he's standing in a stable. One haynet won't be nearly enough! He'll be spending 8hrs with nothing to eat (most horses finish a haynet in a couple of hours)

I'd cut out all hard feed and replace it with hay/haylege instead so he's constantly got something to nibble on.


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## OFG (8 June 2012)

Wagtail said:



			I really wouldn't want any less weight on him. If he were mine I would up his hay myself. No excuse, I know for the woman who has been feeding him, but it sounds as though he is pretty hungry, and leaving a horse without forage can lead to troubles and expense along the line that you really do not want to get into! Perhaps you could leave an extra net out for this woman to give him?
		
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I wouldn't do this either. At the end of the day the woman who has been caught giving hay / hayledge to this horse is out of order and has no rights to be doing that. 

No way would I be leaving a haynet out for this woman to be able to continue to give extra forage.

Most horses will continue to eat what is given to them so just because his haynet is empty doesn't mean it should be given more. If I used that philosphy my lot would be hippos


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## Inthesticks (8 June 2012)

IMO - I would want a little more weight on him yes, and agree that one haynet a night is not nearly enough for him, not excusing the lady's actions as I would not want her doing it either, but sometimes we feel sorry for horses that are not getting enough,( in her opinion), hay or haylage so people may think they re doing the right thing feeding them a little more.


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## FairyLights (8 June 2012)

. I think he could do with more weight on. However he isnt "seriously underweight" just a bit too skinny.


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## ClassicG&T (8 June 2012)

He isnt underweight at all!
I'd say he is spot on! I'd kill someone if i saw them feeding my horse when i clearly stated that i didnt want him being fed any extra food.


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## Amymay (8 June 2012)

OFG said:



			At the end of the day the woman who has been caught giving hay / hayledge to this horse is out of order and has no rights to be doing that. 

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This is an interesting post, in many ways - because I'm always banging on about duty of care on livery yards, by the YO, and by fellow liveries.

So if the lady giving the extra hay was genuinely concerned about your horse then whilst her actions may have upset you, she hasn't really done anything wrong - other than top up a hay ration that has been used up.

We had a very good system some years ago, whereby four of us had a system of last person to leave put the hay in.  This meant that those on smaller rations because of diets didn't stand for too long overnight when their ration was eaten.


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## pookie (8 June 2012)

FWIW (and sorry if this has been mentioned already), I think people can only give their opinions on his weight once the extra rations have been cut out and we see pics of him as he was before the other livery started feeding him


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

OFG said:



			I wouldn't do this either. At the end of the day the woman who has been caught giving hay / hayledge to this horse is out of order and has no rights to be doing that. 

No way would I be leaving a haynet out for this woman to be able to continue to give extra forage.

Most horses will continue to eat what is given to them so just because his haynet is empty doesn't mean it should be given more. If I used that philosphy my lot would be hippos 

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Exactly the same with mine, he doesnt know when to stop if he was to constanly have hay on offer he would be seriously obese! This is why he is limited we did try ad lib hay at one point but he just got so fat it was unbelievable


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

amymay said:



			So if the lady giving the extra hay was genuinely concerned about your horse then whilst her actions may have upset you, she hasn't really done anything wrong - other than top up a hay ration that has been used up.
		
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I wouldnt mind this if he was actually underweight but i really dont want him carrying any extra weight as he is seeming prefect condition wise right now


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## undertheweather (8 June 2012)

OFG and OP - maybe try double netting your hay if yours are good doers, as standing a horse with no forage can cause stomach ulcers. Yes horses need to sleep etc, but on average they spend 16-18 hours grazing. Ad lib/Trickle feeding reduces the chance of your horses getting ulcers. Ulcers are fairly expensive to treat so best avoided! 

I have a horse on a strict diet here atm, and I make sure he always has something in his stomach by using a routine like this:
8am bring in from mud patch and give chaff with bute and give handful of hay in double net
at 12 - another handful into net
4pm another handful into net
8pm turn out in mud patch with shelter (there is grass coming through but very little, and he eats it as it comes. 

Believe it or not, he still isn't losing that much weight, so I am going to have to look into soaking hay etc.

OP your horse is in tip top condition, lovely seeing him like that. I am suffering the consequences now of my boy having carried too much weight as a youngster before we got him. He now has severe arthritis in coffin joints, hocks and stifles. 

I would however cut down feed and up hay.


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## AMH (8 June 2012)

Inthesticks said:



			IMO - I would want a little more weight on him yes, and agree that one haynet a night is not nearly enough for him, not excusing the lady's actions as I would not want her doing it either, but sometimes we feel sorry for horses that are not getting enough,( in her opinion), hay or haylage so people may think they re doing the right thing feeding them a little more.
		
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Sorry - how many haynets a night should he be getting?! Mine is out grazing all day and then has about 3 squares of hay at night. She's perfectly covered (older horse so not as much demand on her system as this boy). If he's hoovering all his hay up in a nanosecond, maybe get a net with smaller holes, or use a net in a net, so slow him up a bit.  

I'd have gone COMPLETELY mental at this woman and demanded that the YO sort it out. How DARE she feed someone else's horse? Disgraceful behaviour.  

I think he's just fine (actually he's a bit of a smasher!). He's just how I'd want mine coming into the summer. Too much weight while he's still developing physically could do far more harm than good.


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## zizz (8 June 2012)

tbh if he was mine I would want to see a bit more weight on him so his ribs were covered, but he definately doesn't look massively under weight.


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## Amymay (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			I wouldnt mind this if he was actually underweight but i really dont want him carrying any extra weight as he is seeming prefect condition wise right now
		
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Although it's interesting that you're getting mixed opinions on his weight on this thread - much like at your yard


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## cornbrodolly (8 June 2012)

I m another who thinks he s underweight. Dont like to see any rib showing. However, if he s in full work [ eg training 2-3 hrs daily at all paces] then I d say he was in 'hard' condition and ok. But to me he s unfurnished- and I d be feeding him haylage behind your back!


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

For those of you saying you want to see more weight on him....Why? Im no expert but from what i know and have been told by vets ect. an ideal weight is when you can just see the ribs and no more


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## PandorasJar (8 June 2012)

My biggest concern would be that if someone else is feeding him (which is completely out of order without permission) there is little you can do to monitor his intake.

We have one of ours at about this weight and are trying to get a little(!) more on him atm. Had someone come over the other day and have a moan about how he looked very ill and skin and bones... luckily OH is far more diplomatic than me and explained the situation and that he's at a near perfect rate as I just turned the tractor revs up and drowned them out 

I *hate* people messing with feed without having discussed it as it makes it very hard to monitor a horses intake properly

Pan


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## undertheweather (8 June 2012)

An ideal body condition score is that you can feel the ribs but only see them when the horse is moving. Also ribs show up much less in photos so I guess they are more protruding in real life. 
See here:
http://www.baileyshorsefeeds.co.uk/feedingexplained/conditionscoring1/conditionscoring3.htm


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## Perfect_Pirouette (8 June 2012)

Okay people,

So, as above, how much hay SHOULD you give a stabled horse at night? I have a fatty (although to be fair not MASSIVELY fat, but still needs to lose some) he is out Mon-Thurs from 6.30am-6pm where upon he gets brought in, groomed, ridden etc etc. By time this is all done it's about 7.30-8 and I put him to bed. With ONE BIG haynet. His hay is soaked for about 16 hours a day as he has a nasty cough otherwise. He also gets a small feed in the evening.

Is this enough for him considering his field hasn't got loads of grass but I need him to lose a bit of weight? I have gone down before and checked on him late at night and apart from a little bit left in the bottom, he is out of hay. (This was at 10pm)

Fri, Sat and Sun he goes out 24/7 but I still give him the haynet, but a smaller one and his feed.

He has lost weight since I've had him and is gradually fittening up. He needs to lose a bit more and then he'll be at his ideal weight I'd imagine.

So how much hay should I give him at night? Is the one big hayney enough? At the end of the day he's a greedy bugger and if I left 5 nets in overnight, he'd eat 5 nets and would balloon as he is a good doer.

OP- your boy looks fine, he's gorgeous! I wouldn't want him much lighter though.


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## Holly Hocks (8 June 2012)

Wagtail said:



			I really wouldn't want any less weight on him. If he were mine I would up his hay myself. No excuse, I know for the woman who has been feeding him, but it sounds as though he is pretty hungry, and leaving a horse without forage can lead to troubles and expense along the line that you really do not want to get into! Perhaps you could leave an extra net out for this woman to give him?
		
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I agree with the above.  Not sure what sort of yards some of you are on, but on ours we all keep a look out for each others horses.  If one is kicking the door as it has been brought in from the field by someone else (ie last horse not to be left on it's own so has been brought in) and has no hay, then someone will chuck some over.  I brought in a friends' horse from the field the other day but as she wasn't expecting it to be brought in (another last horse in the field thing) she hadn't left it with any hay.  So I chucked a section over the door.  The owner was grateful , not "apoplectic with rage" as some of you seem to be.  TBH I would rather someone chucked some over my horses door as at least I know that someone is looking out for my horses.  Our yard is in no way perfect, but on reading some of your comments I really wouldn't want to share a yard with some of you!!
OP, on the question of your horse - he isn't seriously underweight - in fact he's a cracker - really lovely horse!  But if that is how he is when someone has been feeding him extra and you don't want him feeding by anyone else, then i would double net your hay, or give a small extra net.  Good luck with him, he's lovely


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## FairyLights (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			For those of you saying you want to see more weight on him....Why? Im no expert but from what i know and have been told by vets ect. an ideal weight is when you can just see the ribs and no more

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Theres more to it than ribs. Your horse lacks top line. His neck is too thin he lacks muscle on his quarters and his back most definitely needs more covering on it especially around the saddle area.
I echo the comments above, if he looks like this after being given additional food by someone else then  he would have been very skinny if he only had access to what you are prepared to feed him. 
He needs more hay , preferably as lib .


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## Goldenstar (8 June 2012)

amymay said:



			Although it's interesting that you're getting mixed opinions on his weight on this thread - much like at your yard

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As amymay says mixed opinions,
Probally because at wieght he is it's going to cause no issues but could he be carrying a little more and still be perfectly ok yes so it's a bit down to personal taste,personally I would much rather a horse was on the lean side because it's better for their  joints but find it hard to keep mine like that most of the time.
If I would say anything about horse is that it's carrying much less muscle than say my six year old ( I hope I am right remembering its six) but that can be for many reasons one of which could be he's beens using muscle as an energy source but you canot judge that unless you know the horse and what it's been up to.
But hes definatly not seriously underweight on the other hand would a bit of hay harm no of course not but obviously you should not feed someone's horse if you know they have an issue with it.


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## Slightlyconfused (8 June 2012)

I think he is fine, but would need a little extra, and i mean little, going into winter....i like to see a bit of rib when standing, not all the indentations but a shadow. Mine, including the 16.2 exracer, all have one net a night (different weights to their different sizes) and then a small net with breakfast when the first person up the yard feeds.


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## Toast (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			For those of you saying you want to see more weight on him....Why? Im no expert but from what i know and have been told by vets ect. an ideal weight is when you can just see the ribs and no more

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No, you should be able to FEEL the ribs but not see them.


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## 0310Star (8 June 2012)

I think he looks fine for his age and the time of year. People seem to love a "show condition" horse... Anything else is skin and bone.

And as for 1 haynet being too little and causing ulcers, Over feeding a horse can do just as much damage.

I have a fatty, she has recently been diagnosed with ringbone so the vet advised a VERY strict diet so there isn't too much pressure on her joints. She gets 6kg of hay at night in a doubled up small holed net, for those who don't know, 6kg is roughly 1 everage sized haynt. This is also soaked for 12 hours. (she is 16.3hh well built TB)
When she is in over night (winter only) she is out for 12 hours and in for 12 hours. Summer she is on restricted 24/7 turnout. You can just see her ribs, But she is perfect weight and have I nothing but compliments on how much better she is looking now she is no longer fat and dopey.

I have had grief from people about what I feed my horse, a fellow livery once felt the need to "check" my horse when she was in for the day to de-bloat off of the grass last summer and then tell me I was starving her. I did not keep my opinion on that to myself, put it that way!

I choose for my horse to be on a strict diet, but at least she isn't left in agony from her joints (probably something which a previous owner over feeding her has contributed to) if I put a bale of hay in her stable she would eat it so for me, putting 3 nets in for a night would mean my horse would end up fat and crippled, and she would still eat and eat and eat!!!

It is your horse, NO ONE has the right to feed your horse without your permission and I for one would be absolutely fuming!!!!


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## Amymay (8 June 2012)

People seem to love a "show condition" horse
		
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I don't think anyone here has mentioned that he should have significantly more weight on, or that he should be in 'show' condition.


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## 0310Star (8 June 2012)

amymay said:



			I don't think anyone here has mentioned that he should have significantly more weight on, or that he should be in 'show' condition.
		
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with regards to this, I am referring to the fellow livery feeling the need to feed the horse in question without permission from the owner.


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## Lady La La (8 June 2012)

At the risk of getting shot down by the Fat Police, I'd like to see a touch more on him if he were mine. That doesn't mean I think he is 'severely under weight' by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think he's 'perfect' either. 
As others have said, the lack of muscle doesn't help the over all imagine either. 
I'd be livid if a livery at my yard were feeding extra rations to my horse behind my back, though. If the lady in question had concerns over your horses weight, she ought to have addressed the issues to you personally before taking such drastic action.


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## PandorasJar (8 June 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			I brought in a friends' horse from the field the other day but as she wasn't expecting it to be brought in (another last horse in the field thing) she hadn't left it with any hay.  So I chucked a section over the door.  The owner was grateful , not "apoplectic with rage" as some of you seem to be.  TBH I would rather someone chucked some over my horses door as at least I know that someone is looking out for my horses.  Our yard is in no way perfect, but on reading some of your comments I really wouldn't want to share a yard with some of you!!
		
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I have done this in the past on my old yard but only with horses it has been agreed that we are happy bringing in etc, otherwise the owner would get a call. I wouldn't want my horse fed without me asking (some treat it and I don't mind, but not hay/haylage/hard feed) as it's very useful to know if your horse is clearing up (rather than old/left overs having been taken out) or leaving some (rather than extra being put down). Same as water etc, with bucket water if I filled anyones up I'd let them know so they didn't worry their horse wasn't drinking. 

If someone was going to feed it I'd far rather they feed hay than haylage too.

If I was concerned about a horses weight I'd sit down and talk to the owner, not go behind their backs.

Agree with a lot of the posters re smaller holes or double nets as horses shouldn't be left for long periods without something going through their system.

Pan


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## Amymay (8 June 2012)

baker190 said:



			with regards to this, I am referring to the fellow livery feeling the need to feed the horse in question without permission from the owner.
		
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Did the fellow livery say she expected to see the horse in show condition, or that she was just concerned about the general lack of hay.......?


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## stargirl88 (8 June 2012)

He looks better on the last two to me - I like to be able to feel the ribs but not see them 

if he's wolfing down his hay can't you double up your hay net? Or invest in one of those tricklenets? Have a chat with the woman feeding him too - I too would be livid about it but I'd speak to her and tell her to talk to you if she had any concerns about him in future.


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## Wagtail (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			For those of you saying you want to see more weight on him....Why? Im no expert but from what i know and have been told by vets ect. an ideal weight is when you can just see the ribs and no more

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You think he is an ideal weight now? Why then are you going to reduce his feed (which effectively you will be doing by removing what this woman has been feeding him). He will lose weight. Why doesn't logic tell you this? Why do you want to see? He is ONLY JUST the right weight and could not stand to lose more. Also,by leaving him without forage for hours you risk gastric ulcers.


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## Rueysmum (8 June 2012)

Photographs always seem to make horses look a little better covered than they are in reality - therefore I would say that this horse is a little on the lean side.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (8 June 2012)

Personally Id want a little more weight on him hes a little too lean for me BUT I wouldnt want him looking in 'show condition' IE big tummy hanging down and apple bum. He could do with a little more covering all over as his neck looks thin compared to the rest of him and I prefer to feel ribs rather than see them 

He is stunning though and looks to be happy but have to agree with previous who say more than one haynet unless its a massive haynet.

My wee mare (14.1hh) gets one haynet but its two leafs soaked and triple netted so as it lasts her most of the night as shes a good doer  Anymore and she will get too chunky


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## 0310Star (8 June 2012)

amymay said:



			Did the fellow livery say she expected to see the horse in show condition, or that she was just concerned about the general lack of hay.......?
		
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Did fellow livery ask OP if she could feed her horse? no. This to me says she clearly thinks said horse is underweight (she told her mother this much!) and clearly also was concerned about general lack of hay.

The point is that you should not feed someone else's horse without permission, as I have just pointed out there could be reasons as to why horse gets so little as there is with my horse. If someone was feeding my horse behind my back and she gained weight this would more than likely cause lameness issues. If you do not know the ins and outs and have not had permission then said horse should not be fed by others!


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## Tnavas (8 June 2012)

He looks just fine and he is rather handsome too.

As someone else pointed out - for how long has he been getting this extra feed and how much? If it is has been happening for some time then you may need to considerincreasing his feed a little.

Id there any reason he can't stay out 24/7 at this time of year? This will save you having to feed extra food. Then you can use work to maintain his correct condition.


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## Amymay (8 June 2012)

This to me says she clearly thinks said horse is underweight (she told her mother this much!)
		
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Hence this post


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## GinaGeo (8 June 2012)

I'd agree with those that are saying they wouldn't want any less weight on him.  If anything I'd like a touch more, as well as a good source of protein to help build muscle. 

I certainly would not call him fat or cut any forage out. If anything I'd increase it, so what the livery's been feeding him and a little more.

I would however be concerned at what his weight would be like if the livery hadn't been feeding extra.  Despite this, I wouldn't impressed with anybody feeding my horse's behind my back, I'd rather they told me what they thought. At least then I could explain my view and they theirs.

I have my own horse's on a constant diet by the way, and certainly do not endorse fat or "Show Conditioned" horses


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## AMH (8 June 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			I agree with the above.  Not sure what sort of yards some of you are on, but on ours we all keep a look out for each others horses.  If one is kicking the door as it has been brought in from the field by someone else (ie last horse not to be left on it's own so has been brought in) and has no hay, then someone will chuck some over.  I brought in a friends' horse from the field the other day but as she wasn't expecting it to be brought in (another last horse in the field thing) she hadn't left it with any hay.  So I chucked a section over the door.  The owner was grateful , not "apoplectic with rage" as some of you seem to be.  TBH I would rather someone chucked some over my horses door as at least I know that someone is looking out for my horses.  Our yard is in no way perfect, but on reading some of your comments I really wouldn't want to share a yard with some of you!!




			I think this is little bit different to someone willfully feeding a horse which THEY HAVE DECIDED is underfed without consultation with the owner. There could be all sorts of extremely valid reasons why the horse is on restricted rations, potentially under veterinary advice, of which the 'feeder' could not have been aware because she chose not to discuss her concerns with the owner like a grown up and rather resorted to subterfuge. 

I would rather be on a yard where others respect my right to feed my horse as I see fit and address any concerns they have to my face rather one where people fed my horse behind my back 

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## DipseyDeb (8 June 2012)

He looks perfect, the woman must be mad!!! I'd be fuming!!!! I f yours is seriously underweight, then mine must be too!!!


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## vickyb (8 June 2012)

OP, I think your horse is lovely, and I am very struck by his wonderfully strong looking legs and large frame. I have read through the post, but I must have missed his age, but from what you say he is young. He is not underweight, nor overweight, but I would not like him much leaner. If he were mine (and I wish he was) I would be working him more to build up muscle and then, quite justifiably, feed him more. He has got a large frame to mature into - I should imagine in a few years time he will be a strapping beastie.


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## Countrychic (8 June 2012)

I think it is totally unacceptable to feed someone elses horse without their knowledge and she should have spoken to you if she had concerns HOWEVER

I think he looks poor, he isnt seriously underweight at all but if he was mine I would up his hay and up his slow steady work to get a nice powerful (not fat) looking horse. He has good chunky legs and his body (especially his neck) look wrong. I'd be giving plenty hay, lunging long and low and lots of walking up hills then he would look special


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## Wagtail (8 June 2012)

Rueysmum said:



			Photographs always seem to make horses look a little better covered than they are in reality - therefore I would say that this horse is a little on the lean side.
		
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I can vouch for that. My retired mare's ribs show all the time (she is Cushings and prone to laminitis). This is a photograph taken 6 weeks ago, still in her winter woolies. Every rib could actually be seen, but you wouldn't think it from the photograph.


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## Ibblebibble (8 June 2012)

i certainly wouldn't say he was seriously underweight but if you are trying to improve his condition with work he is going to need extra 'fuel' to be able to build muscle he looks good now but not 'perfect'.
I can understand why you would be angry at this woman feeding him behind your back because she feels he should be carrying more weight, she should have raised her concerns with you and discussed it rather than taking it upon herself to mess with his feed routine.


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## monkeybum13 (8 June 2012)

For those thank think it is acceptable for another livery to be giving him extra hay would you think it acceptable for someone to go in an overweight horses stable and remove some of their food?

If its not your horse don't feed it. If you think there is something wrong with the horses weight then talk to the owner, don't go feeding it without permission.


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## Dry Rot (8 June 2012)

I would say the horse a little lean -- exactly as he should be at this time of year and after a long winter. He could easily go the other way in a couple of weeks on grass. Horses are meant to be lean at the end of the winter!

As for the other owner's concern, that is something she should have taken up with either the horse's owner or the YO. To just go ahead and decide that she would feed someone else's horse is both rude and possibly criminal damage. She does not know all the facts and the horse could very well be under veterinary supervision and on a special diet. 

If the horse was mine, I'm afraid I would tell a white lie and say that was the situation and she has very probably caused my horse serious damage by feeding more than is allowed and the wrong type of food. I'm afraid I would lay it on and try, as best I could, to make her feel guilty! Hopefully, that would make her think before doing it again.


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## fburton (8 June 2012)

Toast said:



			No, you should be able to FEEL the ribs but not see them.
		
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Agreed.

However, I would not be at all unhappy with this horse's weight - better to be "moderately thin" (condition score 4 on that webpage) at this time of year than "moderately fat" (condition score 6), imo. I would want to see his profile from behind before coming to a final judgement, but from the photos it looks like it would be fine.


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## Puppy (8 June 2012)

Lady La La said:



			At the risk of getting shot down by the Fat Police, I'd like to see a touch more on him if he were mine. That doesn't mean I think he is 'severely under weight' by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think he's 'perfect' either. 
As others have said, the lack of muscle doesn't help the over all imagine either. 
I'd be livid if a livery at my yard were feeding extra rations to my horse behind my back, though. If the lady in question had concerns over your horses weight, she ought to have addressed the issues to you personally before taking such drastic action.
		
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I agree with La La. 

If he were mine I would want a smidgen more on him.


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## BillyBob-Sleigh (8 June 2012)

He's not thin by any means but he is very lean and I personally wouldn't want him to lose anymore (but it certainly wouldn't do him any harm to gain a bit of weight and muscle!).

I am failing to see what the problem is with the other livery giving him some extra hay....if my lad was stood there in a stable having eaten all his haynet I would be grateful for someone to chuck him a bit extra until I came up - UNLESS he was over weight which he isn't. However saying that if you have specifically told her not to give him any extra then she should respect that, but would you honestly rather him being stood there with nothing to do and going a few hours with nothing in his net or give him an extra net/permission for someone else to give him a few extra handfuls to keep him happy.


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## Moomin1 (8 June 2012)

Ah the good ol' livery yard busy body!!  

OP your horse just looks lacking in topline and muscle.  That being said if he has been getting a lot extra from this busy body then maybe you should up his rations to match it so he sticks at this weight.  Then, tell her to **** off and mind her own!  

I actually had someone who was taking my horse's fly rug off (she is severely sensitive to bites) because she said it 'looked dirty' (she wears it 24/7 outdoors so of course it is mud stained!).  She then started telling people that she was going to move other people's (including mine) horses to different fields (without asking or even telling them) so that she could put her horses in their fields.  Not to mention the poor soul who got 'told off' by her for feeding her horse coarse mix in the winter!


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

Okay for those of you saying that if i cut out what the woman is feeding him extra he would begin to lose the weight ect ect. But if you read my last comment how am i supposed to moniter his weight when someone is feeding him extra i am totally unaware of how much she has been feeding him and it's not being every night, only every now and again! So for me to maintain his current weight (which i am very happy with) i need to know exactly what he's being fed and adjust as and when i need to!
Thankyou to all you who seem to agree with me that his weight is just right, comparing these photos to him in real life tthere is not much difference i dont think his ribs are any clearer in real life


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## pixiebee (8 June 2012)

BillyBob-Sleigh said:



			He's not thin by any means but he is very lean and I personally wouldn't want him to lose anymore (but it certainly wouldn't do him any harm to gain a bit of weight and muscle!).

I am failing to see what the problem is with the other livery giving him some extra hay....if my lad was stood there in a stable having eaten all his haynet I would be grateful for someone to chuck him a bit extra until I came up - UNLESS he was over weight which he isn't. However saying that if you have specifically told her not to give him any extra then she should respect that, but would you honestly rather him being stood there with nothing to do and going a few hours with nothing in his net or give him an extra net/permission for someone else to give him a few extra handfuls to keep him happy.
		
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ditto, he looks on the lean side to me, its not just topline, he looks thin on the shoulders and I dont like the fact you can see the ribs. Personally I would want a little more on him, besides, he will never be able to gain good muscle/topline always being so lean, he needs a bit more on him to turn into muscle!


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## Moomin1 (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			Okay for those of you saying that if i cut out what the woman is feeding him extra he would begin to lose the weight ect ect. But if you read my last comment how am i supposed to moniter his weight when someone is feeding him extra i am totally unaware of how much she has been feeding him and it's not being every night, only every now and again! So for me to maintain his current weight (which i am very happy with) i need to know exactly what he's being fed and adjust as and when i need to!
Thankyou to all you who seem to agree with me that his weight is just right, comparing these photos to him in real life tthere is not much difference i dont think his ribs are any clearer in real life
		
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I fully agree with you.  These are the sorts of people who hinder investigations by charities with regards thin horses/neglected horses (not that I am saying FOR ONE MINUTE that you and your horse fall into this category because you clearly don't - I am just talking about the sort of busy bodies that interfere when they think they know best!  by refusing to stop feeding them themselves - and then demand for the horse to be removed even though it is healthy because they are feeding it!  

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned and answered -but have you had a word with the YO to get them to intervene?  I did this when this particular woman was causing havoc on our yard and she got told under no uncertain terms to back off.


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## pixiebee (8 June 2012)

it's not being every night said:
			
		


			so whats the big issue with now and then?
		
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## Moomin1 (8 June 2012)

pixiebee said:



			ditto, he looks on the lean side to me, its not just topline, he looks thin on the shoulders and I dont like the fact you can see the ribs. Personally I would want a little more on him, besides, he will never be able to gain good muscle/topline always being so lean, he needs a bit more on him to turn into muscle!
		
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He isn't 'very lean' at all IMO  - just under muscled.  I wouldn't even say he was 'lean' and I see horses of all different weights on a daily basis - from severly emaciated to grossly and morbidly overweight.  

There is nothing wrong with being able to see the first three ribs slightly - particularly at this time of year.  Far more preferable to having too much on.


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## Countrychic (8 June 2012)

You Appear to only be hearing the people that agree with you. A huge proportion of posts think he is really lacking in muscle and that he could do with at least more hay


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## pixiebee (8 June 2012)

and where did i say 'very lean' I SAID on the lean side!!


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## Moomin1 (8 June 2012)

pixiebee said:



			and where did i say 'very lean' I SAID on the lean side!!
		
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Apologise - I realised after that I was meant to quote the person who you quoted - they said that he is very lean.


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## pixiebee (8 June 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Apologise - I realised after that I was meant to quote the person who you quoted - they said that he is very lean.
		
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fairy nuff ;-p


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

Countrychic said:



			You Appear to only be hearing the people that agree with you. A huge proportion of posts think he is really lacking in muscle and that he could do with at least more hay
		
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Certainly not!! I have already stated in one of my previous post that he is still young and still has alot of muscle to develop but no one seems to have took notice, either way feeding up a horse isnt the right way about getting muscle it comes with time and work.


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## Amymay (8 June 2012)

If you want the horse to develop muscle then you will need to feed and work him appropriately.


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## Holly Hocks (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			feeding up a horse isnt the right way about getting muscle it comes with time and work.
		
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....and appropriate, sufficient feeding.


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

amymay said:



			If you want the horse to develop muscle then you will need to feed and work him appropriately.
		
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Yes and as i have said he is getting hard feed and is getting hay (enough imo) but i need to be able to monitor his feed and adjust accordinly to allow him be be able to work and build up muscle whether that means increasing hay or hard feed


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## BillyBob-Sleigh (8 June 2012)

amymay said:



			If you want the horse to develop muscle then you will need to feed and work him appropriately.
		
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Agree with this ^


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## BillyBob-Sleigh (8 June 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Apologise - I realised after that I was meant to quote the person who you quoted - they said that he is very lean.
		
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Yes me. I also said that he was NOT thin just v.lean IMO, regardless almost all horse owners have different opinions on what the ideal horse's weight should be and it obviously also depends on the type. I'm not slating the OP at all, I think he's lovely just a bit too lean for my personal preference that's all. Others may disagree and they are entitled to.


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## Holly Hocks (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			Yes and as i have said he is getting hard feed and is getting hay (enough imo) but i need to be able to monitor his feed and adjust accordinly to allow him be be able to work and build up muscle whether that means increasing hay or hard feed
		
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If your horse has sufficient energy to do the job you are asking of him, then it is not hard feed you need to increase - it's the forage.


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			If your horse has sufficient energy to do the job you are asking of him, then it is not hard feed you need to increase - it's the forage.
		
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But at this current time i dont feel his forage needs increased, obviously i will be closely monitioring his condition when his extra forage(which he shouldnt be getting) is cut out and if he needs to be he will be giving extra by me


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## Wagtail (8 June 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			If your horse has sufficient energy to do the job you are asking of him, then it is not hard feed you need to increase - it's the forage.
		
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Agree with this. Is there a reason other than his weight why you cannot feed him haylage?

Hay or haylage, that is what should provide the most of his energy and condition.


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## pixiebee (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			But at this current time i dont feel his forage needs increased, obviously i will be closely monitioring his condition when his extra forage(which he shouldnt be getting) is cut out and if he needs to be he will be giving extra by me
		
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so you are still not taking advice. If you already knew the answer why post this!


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## Wagtail (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			But at this current time i dont feel his forage needs increased, obviously i will be closely monitioring his condition when his extra forage(which he shouldnt be getting) is cut out and if he needs to be he will be giving extra by me
		
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I asked you this before, but you ignored or missed it. If he is at an ideal weight now (some feel he is too thin), doesn't logic tell you that by cutting out some of what he has been eating, he will lose condition?


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

pixiebee said:



			so you are still not taking advice. If you already knew the answer why post this!
		
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Because as i said my mum doesnt know a thing about horses so i posted this on behalf of my mum so she could see what other people thought on the matter


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## pixiebee (8 June 2012)

Wagtail said:



			I asked you this before, but you ignored or missed it. If he is at an ideal weight now (some feel he is too thin), doesn't logic tell you that by cutting out some of what he has been eating, he will lose condition? 

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i wouldnt bother, she has made her mind up!


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## be positive (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			But at this current time i dont feel his forage needs increased, obviously i will be closely monitioring his condition when his extra forage(which he shouldnt be getting) is cut out and if he needs to be he will be giving extra by me
		
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But without some increase in forage or access to more grass how is he going to build up more muscle, what he gets at the moment is sufficient for him to stay as he is, it is obviously not enough for him to improve in any way.

I think he is lean, lacking in topline and generally needing to muscle up , in order for him to do that ad lib hay or grass is required.


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

Wagtail said:



			I asked you this before, but you ignored or missed it. If he is at an ideal weight now (some feel he is too thin), doesn't logic tell you that by cutting out some of what he has been eating, he will lose condition? 

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sorry i must have missed it! The thing is though i dont know how much she has been feeding him it could be a small handful or it could have been big bundles, so when she stops which she should have now i will monitor him and if he does lose more condition then i will increase his hay.


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## DragonSlayer (8 June 2012)

OFG said:



			I wouldn't do this either. At the end of the day the woman who has been caught giving hay / hayledge to this horse is out of order and has no rights to be doing that. 

No way would I be leaving a haynet out for this woman to be able to continue to give extra forage.

Most horses will continue to eat what is given to them so just because his haynet is empty doesn't mean it should be given more. If I used that philosphy my lot would be hippos 

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^^^This^^^

My horses would also be hippo's, they are all on regulated grazing to keep them healthy, if I let them loose on hay as well, I'd probably have big, fat, dead horses....


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## Holly Hocks (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			But at this current time i dont feel his forage needs increased, obviously i will be closely monitioring his condition when his extra forage(which he shouldnt be getting) is cut out and if he needs to be he will be giving extra by me
		
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Ok to put it as easy to understand as possible.
Although most posters have said that they don't agree that the other livery was right to give your horse extra forage, they have also said that your lovely horse is a little on the lean side and could do with a little more coverage - nobody is saying they want to see him obese, but needs more condition.
I don't see what you find so difficult to understand.  Why do you not "feel his forage needs increased"?  Your horse is trying to tell you, by his condition, that his forage does need to be increased.  Is forage included in your livery or do you have to buy it in yourself?


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## Moomin1 (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			sorry i must have missed it! The thing is though i dont know how much she has been feeding him it could be a small handful or it could have been big bundles, so when she stops which she should have now i will monitor him and if he does lose more condition then i will increase his hay.
		
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Exactly.  Nobody has the right to feed other peoples horses without consent.  It is downright rude, and sometimes proves very dangerous too (I have come across horses with colic/lami etc etc because some idiot has been feeding the 'poor neglected horse' goodness knows what without the owner knowing.  If this person had genuine concerns then she should have approached YO or OP and discussed it.  If still concerned then other avenues should be used rather than being underhand about it.

The only way OP can deal with her horse's weight/muscle tone is for this nosey piece of work to butt out and stop feeding him.  Something tells me I don't think OP is going to let him waste away.


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## Nugget La Poneh (8 June 2012)

For me personally - too lean. But that is based on several assumptions about his workload. If you were to say that he is worked to a level equivilent to a racehorse then I would put hands up and say fair do's, he's fit and therefore 'perfect' (in my eyes). However, since the majority of peoples non-professional horses are not worked to this level and his muscle structure suggests this isn't the case, this is my reasoning that I feel he is on the wrong side of lean. 

I personally would actually cut out any hard feed and look to go onto a true fibre based diet, using straw as a bulking agent as well as hay and use oil and possibly a mix for when his workload truly justifies it. It not only is cheaper, but far easier and IME quicker to adjust/get results.

However reading the replies, there are several mentions about the time of year. I too believe that a horse should be lean after the winter, but we are pretty much in the middle of June which in a normal year with correct weather and seasons (ha ha) the grass would be flushing and horses would be going into their store everything like it'll disappear tomorrow mode - and ultimately well covered!

How old is he (sorry if already mentioned, but I couldn't see it)?

And yes, the other livery owner shouldn't be feeding him without your consent.


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

be positive said:



			But without some increase in forage or access to more grass how is he going to build up more muscle, what he gets at the moment is sufficient for him to stay as he is, it is obviously not enough for him to improve in any way.

I think he is lean, lacking in topline and generally needing to muscle up , in order for him to do that ad lib hay or grass is required.
		
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There is still loads of grass in his field and it is still coming through he is out on that for 12 hours a day, brought in and ridden ect takes aprox 2hours given a hard feed and his hay, ive heard what others have to say about him standing for a length of time without food so i will start doubling up his nets!  He has been tried on ad-lib hay and just got fat so he needs to be restricted! I still aint convinced on what a few are saying about having to increase what he's getting fed to allow his muscle to build up as we have had him since a 4 and he has always been fed the same and managed fine to build up muscle!
Maybe i should mention that at the start of the year he has 2 full months off on box rest so lost a lot of muscle in that time so its taking time to get that back angain as well as build on other areas


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## Miss L Toe (8 June 2012)

baker190 said:



			Did fellow livery ask OP if she could feed her horse? no. This to me says she clearly thinks said horse is underweight (she told her mother this much!) and clearly also was concerned about general lack of hay.

The point is that you should not feed someone else's horse without permission, as I have just pointed out there could be reasons as to why horse gets so little as there is with my horse. If someone was feeding my horse behind my back and she gained weight this would more than likely cause lameness issues. If you do not know the ins and outs and have not had permission then said horse should not be fed by others!
		
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OK well what would you do if a seriously underweight pony, which had been left in a bare field all summer, for reasons probably of economy, came back to its original stable, was turned out every weekday  at 6.00 am with no rug [autumn, no fat] and was still seriously underweight after eight weeks, owner and his daughter was told by numerous people.
Every weekend morning it stood in it stable with no food till the girl got up to see it, about eleven am.
 Every day it had no water [I was told by this person "well, it keeps drinking its water"] The previous owner had this beautiful pony in perfect condition but said to them   "don't feed it oats" so they gave it one handful of the cheapest molassed chaff, and nothing else.
Bearing in mind the owner had told me "we expect you experienced people to advise us if we are going wrong"!!!
After having spoken to the girl and being ignored, I started giving it food, I was found out, so I made noises about the RSPCA, and hey presto a vet came out to it, was it the first time he had rasped teeth on a horse with a full rug and neck cover, a bit suspicious maybe?
Even the obnoxious child must have felt it was not getting enough, as she gave it a slice of brown bread out of her lunch box every day!!!!
The YO intervened, and asked me to come and show me the pony, it was pretty obvious, the ribs were countable , no flesh on quarters and a dry stary coat, also depressed.
I could have been more careful not to have been caught feeding it, but I don't like to see horses starved.


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			Ok to put it as easy to understand as possible.
Although most posters have said that they don't agree that the other livery was right to give your horse extra forage, they have also said that your lovely horse is a little on the lean side and could do with a little more coverage - nobody is saying they want to see him obese, but needs more condition.
I don't see what you find so difficult to understand.  Why do you not "feel his forage needs increased"?  Your horse is trying to tell you, by his condition, that his forage does need to be increased.  Is forage included in your livery or do you have to buy it in yourself?
		
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i understand but for me to know how much i need to increase it i need to monitor his condition once the extra which he shouldnt be getting is stopped!
I do know what yous are saying yes and his forage may need to be upped to keep his current condition at which i am happy with


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Something tells me I don't think OP is going to let him waste away.
		
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100% i wouldnt want to see him lose any condition as i feel he is perfect just now, yes there is room for a little more weight but with the rich grass coming through he will probs gain that anyway


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## ContinentalRescue (8 June 2012)

IME what is considered "normal" weight for a horse differs greatly from one person to the next. To me, he looks like he needs some muscling which will come with time, and once he starts to muscle up his shape will change and he won't look as lean as he does.


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## Miss L Toe (8 June 2012)

Feed him an extra 2.5kg of hay per night for two weeks. Make sure he is getting his full RDA of vits and mins. The spring grass is here already.


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## DragonSlayer (8 June 2012)

OP - the best advice I can give you is to ask your vet. On here, you will never get a unanimous answer, ask someone who has the qualification to give you the answers you need. You can then tell the interfering busy-body to shove it. I'd also be onto the YO who needs to be warning off the person who is feeding your horse...


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## Holly Hocks (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			I still aint convinced on what a few are saying about having to increase what he's getting fed to allow his muscle to build up
		
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In that case there was absolutely no point in you asking what people thought then was there?


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

Nugget La Poneh said:



			For me personally - too lean. But that is based on several assumptions about his workload. If you were to say that he is worked to a level equivilent to a racehorse then I would put hands up and say fair do's, he's fit and therefore 'perfect' (in my eyes). However, since the majority of peoples non-professional horses are not worked to this level and his muscle structure suggests this isn't the case, this is my reasoning that I feel he is on the wrong side of lean. 

I personally would actually cut out any hard feed and look to go onto a true fibre based diet, using straw as a bulking agent as well as hay and use oil and possibly a mix for when his workload truly justifies it. It not only is cheaper, but far easier and IME quicker to adjust/get results.

However reading the replies, there are several mentions about the time of year. I too believe that a horse should be lean after the winter, but we are pretty much in the middle of June which in a normal year with correct weather and seasons (ha ha) the grass would be flushing and horses would be going into their store everything like it'll disappear tomorrow mode - and ultimately well covered!

How old is he (sorry if already mentioned, but I couldn't see it)?

And yes, the other livery owner shouldn't be feeding him without your consent.
		
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His workload - worked 6 days a week, usually consists of schooling 3 days a week for 30min-1hr, jumped once a week, hacked or lunged once a week, and usually a show one day 
He is 6


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## pixiebee (8 June 2012)

I still aint convinced on what a few are saying about having to increase what he's getting fed to allow his muscle to build up as we have had him since a 4 and he has always been fed the same and managed fine to build up muscle!
[/QUOTE said:
			
		


			oh well, you obviously know better than everyone else.
		
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## quirky (8 June 2012)

The horse is not a baby. Using that as an excuse for not having top line, is just that, an excuse.

If you are working him correctly, so he should develop top line, then maybe you do need to look at his forage intake.


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## Miss L Toe (8 June 2012)

ContinentalRescue said:



			IME what is considered "normal" weight for a horse differs greatly from one person to the next. To me, he looks like he needs some muscling which will come with time, and once he starts to muscle up his shape will change and he won't look as lean as he does. 

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It won't help him to muscle up if he is stabled 14 hours a day, this is why ideally he should be out 24/7 if he is young and still growing.
I you think he is getting enough work and food to have him in good condition, ie well muscled, you are incorrect.


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			In that case there was absolutely no point in you asking what people thought then was there?
		
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The whole reason i asked is because my MUM wanted to hear some other opinons as she knew the woman was wrong in saying he was under wight but had nothing to back up her answer, i have gotten loads of feedback and have taken it ALL on board! i think the best way to settle this will come down to seeing what the vet thinks on the matter


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

pixiebee said:



			oh well, you obviously know better than everyone else.
		
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No this is just not what i have been tought in my time with horses tbh the first time ive heard someone say feeding them up will bring muscle, i will speak to my intructors, vet and other people though as i know i could be wrong but like i have said i know im no expert and i am still learning and i also dont want you or anyone else to think im ignoring your advice because im not, i have taken it all on board


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## Holly Hocks (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			The whole reason i asked is because my MUM wanted to hear some other opinons as she knew the woman was wrong in saying he was under wight but had nothing to back up her answer, i have gotten loads of feedback and have taken it ALL on board! i think the best way to settle this will come down to seeing what the vet thinks on the matter
		
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But the woman wasn't wrong in saying he was underweight, was she, if you read most of the answers on here?  Maybe wrong in feeding him, but not wrong in her comments.


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

quirky said:



			The horse is not a baby. Using that as an excuse for not having top line, is just that, an excuse.

If you are working him correctly, so he should develop top line, then maybe you do need to look at his forage intake.
		
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Im not using that as an excuse that is exactly what we were told by the judge at our last show (last weekend) and also by our vet last time she was out (last month) i am working on his topline just now and already noticing a difference with him


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			But the woman wasn't wrong in saying he was underweight, was she, if you read most of the answers on here?  Maybe wrong in feeding him, but not wrong in her comments.
		
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The replies on here have been 50/50 and its proven to all come down to personal preference, she was wrong in saying he was seriously under weight all comments agreeing with this have only said he could do with a 'little' more coverage, no one has agreed with her in the sence he is seriously underweight


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## pookie (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			No this is just not what i have been tought in my time with horses tbh the first time ive heard someone say feeding them up will bring muscle...
		
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Really? How else d'you think muscle is produced?


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## Holly Hocks (8 June 2012)

pookie said:



			Really? How else d'you think muscle is produced? 

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Pookie, I don't think the education system is like it used to be......


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

pookie said:



			Really? How else d'you think muscle is produced? 

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Through having the correct feed and workload, not simply 'feeding them up'


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## goldenmint (8 June 2012)

Ok I'm sure someone will explain this better than me but anyway,

You horse looks fairly lean. He is not likely to use any of his extra protein to build muscle as he doesn't look like he will have any spare after using it for basic functions. If the horse had slightly mire condition and maybe a balanced feed for building topline ie build up mix, he would start to build topline. Keeping him lean, no matter what/how correctly you work him is not going to be conductive for building muscle. Just like with humans if you don't have enough or/and the correct fuel you won't become a body builder.


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## brighteyes (8 June 2012)

vickyb said:



			OP, I think your horse is lovely, and I am very struck by his wonderfully strong looking legs and large frame. I have read through the post, but I must have missed his age, but from what you say he is young. He is not underweight, nor overweight, but I would not like him much leaner. If he were mine (and I wish he was) I would be working him more to build up muscle and then, quite justifiably, feed him more. He has got a large frame to mature into - I should imagine in a few years time he will be a strapping beastie.
		
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^^^ This (and I _like_ them lean).


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## quirky (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			He has no topline because he is too skinny, no he has no topline as he is still a baby and still needs to build up a bit more muscle on his neck, somthing i am working on right now!
		
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You Wont Forget Me said:



			Im not using that as an excuse that is exactly what we were told by the judge at our last show (last weekend) and also by our vet last time she was out (last month) i am working on his topline just now and already noticing a difference with him
		
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Hmm


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## Miss L Toe (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			The whole reason i asked is because my MUM wanted to hear some other opinons as she knew the woman was wrong in saying he was under wight but had nothing to back up her answer, i have gotten loads of feedback and have taken it ALL on board! i think the best way to settle this will come down to seeing what the vet thinks on the matter
		
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Good one, if you want to pay a professional  £60 to give you his opinion fair enough, please tell him you consider the horse which is in regular work is well muscled, see what he thinks, I would be interested!!!
Your mum was upset and was unsure if the horse was underweight,  now she has had all these adverse opinions, she is sure, and all the opinions are wrong!!!!


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## meesha (8 June 2012)

just typed long reply and lost it duh!!

I would try 24/7 turnout and watch his weight on good grass so you can restrict or add hay accordingly.  I would also phone a couple of helplines (topspec etc) and get him an all round balancer to help build topline so you know he has the building blocks available to develop.

I still think he is not underweight but just needs topline/muscle.


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## pixiebee (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			No this is just not what i have been tought in my time with horses tbh the first time ive heard someone say feeding them up will bring muscle, i will speak to my intructors, vet and other people though as i know i could be wrong but like i have said i know im no expert and i am still learning and i also dont want you or anyone else to think im ignoring your advice because im not, i have taken it all on board
		
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ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!! Nobody has said feeding him up will bring muscle, do you not understand basic science? How is your horse possibly going to build muscle when there is NOTHING on him to turn into muscle. Thats why athletes need GOOD diets and more calories than most people in order to not only maintain good weight but build muscle!!!


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

goldenmint said:



			Ok I'm sure someone will explain this better than me but anyway,

You horse looks fairly lean. He is not likely to use any of his extra protein to build muscle as he doesn't look like he will have any spare after using it for basic functions. If the horse had slightly mire condition and maybe a balanced feed for building topline ie build up mix, he would start to build topline. Keeping him lean, no matter what/how correctly you work him is not going to be conductive for building muscle. Just like with humans if you don't have enough or/and the correct fuel you won't become a body builder.
		
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Totally understand that yes, i have taken on board everything that has been said and i will try upping his hay and see how he gets on


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## Shysmum (8 June 2012)

Bottom Line - you've had a lot of advice from peeps here, and I can see that if your horse has his forage reduced he WILL LOSE WEIGHT.  He is doing a lot of work !!!! 

The only way out of this situation is to correctly guage what energy your horse needs, and give it to him. If he needs the extra haylage to keep in in the condition of the pics, YOU MUST FEED MORE. it's really so simple, that is why people are infuriated - you (or your Mum) asked for advice, and you cannot see  others logic.

It really is not difficult.

YOUR FEED/FORAGE + EXTRA HAYLAGE  = HORSE IN CONDITION OF PHOTOS. 

YOUR FEED/FORAGE  MINUS EXTRA HAYLAGE = HORSE LOSING WEIGHT.


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

pixiebee said:



			ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!! Nobody has said feeding him up will bring muscle, do you not understand basic science? How is your horse possibly going to build muscle when there is NOTHING on him to turn into muscle. Thats why athletes need GOOD diets and more calories than most people in order to not only maintain good weight but build muscle!!!
		
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There is a comment saying i need to feed him up in order to get muscle! YES i know this!! I also know horses competing at a much higher level than us who are fed much less than him, he is fed what we have been advice to feed and it will get adjusted as and when it needs to i WILL be increasing is hay and see how he gets on with that, some people are making out like he is fed nothing, he still gets a good amount of forage and a hard feed


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## Moomin1 (8 June 2012)

shysmum said:



			Bottom Line - you've had a lot of advice from peeps here, and I can see that if your horse has his forage reduced he WILL LOSE WEIGHT.  He is doing a lot of work !!!! 

The only way out of this situation is to correctly guage what energy your horse needs, and give it to him. If he needs the extra haylage to keep in in the condition of the pics, YOU MUST FEED MORE. it's really so simple, that is why people are infuriated - you (or your Mum) asked for advice, and you cannot see  others logic.

It really is not difficult.

YOUR FEED/FORAGE + EXTRA HAYLAGE  = HORSE IN CONDITION OF PHOTOS. 

YOUR FEED/FORAGE  MINUS EXTRA HAYLAGE = HORSE LOSING WEIGHT.

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Not necessarily - the amount of forage that this busy body is giving may be tiny - and it may be very irregularly, in which case it's not going to be making a huge amount of difference.  

You are right in your logic though - the amount of forage given should increase.  

I think the point OP is making here is that it's not on for this person to be feeding him, and it is difficult for her to ascertain how much he needs in comparison to how much he is getting because she hasn't got a clue how much he is getting currently.


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

shysmum said:



			Bottom Line - you've had a lot of advice from peeps here, and I can see that if your horse has his forage reduced he WILL LOSE WEIGHT.  He is doing a lot of work !!!! 

The only way out of this situation is to correctly guage what energy your horse needs, and give it to him. If he needs the extra haylage to keep in in the condition of the pics, YOU MUST FEED MORE. it's really so simple, that is why people are infuriated - you (or your Mum) asked for advice, and you cannot see  others logic.

It really is not difficult.

YOUR FEED/FORAGE + EXTRA HAYLAGE  = HORSE IN CONDITION OF PHOTOS. 

YOUR FEED/FORAGE  MINUS EXTRA HAYLAGE = HORSE LOSING WEIGHT.

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Totally agree and as i have said i will up his hay and see how he gets on! I can see others logics and i have taken it all on, the have been loads of other opinions and it seems to be all coming down to personal preference, i would allow his condition to be any less than what it is just now


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## Clodagh (8 June 2012)

I think he is poor, not thin but I wouldn't want mine looking like that. When I was hunting and my horse was as fit as a butchers dog she was lean but had a rock hard neck and bum, but not an ounce of fat on her.
He is being worked pretty hard by the sound of things and I think he needs more hay - if he is 6 then he is not a baby and should look a lot better than he does.


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## goldenmint (8 June 2012)

OP he is in no way,shape or form seriously underweight and livery should not have fed him anything unless having asked you first. 

I personally would want a bit more weight on him, mainly do he could start building muscle, but he is lovely chap and you obviously take very good care of him.


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Good one, if you want to pay a professional  £60 to give you his opinion fair enough, please tell him you consider the horse which is in regular work is well muscled, see what he thinks, I would be interested!!!
Your mum was upset and was unsure if the horse was underweight,  now she has had all these adverse opinions, she is sure, and all the opinions are wrong!!!!
		
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I have at no point said he is well muscled, he still has much more muscle to develop/tone. My mum knows the horse isnt under weight and wanted to prove a point to the woman, answers on here are about 50/50 some saying he's fine some saying they would like to see a little more weight, so it's simply down to personal preference, i have however taken on everyone's advice and appreciate it all


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## rhino (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			I also know horses competing at a much higher level than us who are fed much less than him, he is fed what we have been advice to feed and it will get adjusted as and when it needs to i WILL be increasing is hay and see how he gets on with that, some people are making out like he is fed nothing, he still gets a good amount of forage and a hard feed
		
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How much does he get? In kgs, forage and hard feed, and what hard feed? Who advised you, a nutritionist?

Ignore the fact you know other horses who work more and fed less, treat the horse as an individual. Mine managed to remain eventing/team chase fit on no hard feed at all but was exceptionally well muscled. In fact, despite being retired, spending all winter on box rest and having no hard feed he is still vastly better muscled than your boy, and he's in his 20s. They're all different!

He doesn't need to be fat, but at 6 he is hardly a baby and he looks very undermuscled for his type; he is not a thoroughbred.


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

Clodagh said:



			I think he is poor, not thin but I wouldn't want mine looking like that. When I was hunting and my horse was as fit as a butchers dog she was lean but had a rock hard neck and bum, but not an ounce of fat on her.
He is being worked pretty hard by the sound of things and I think he needs more hay - if he is 6 then he is not a baby and should look a lot better than he does.
		
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His progress has been slow, having got him when he was 4.5years he had only been broken had no schooling ect and me still being young and him still being young we've taken things slowly and he is starting to shape up, okay prepared to most 6 yo yes he prop isnt in as good condition muscle wise but we are getting there with him


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## Miss L Toe (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			I have at no point said he is well muscled, he still has much more muscle to develop/tone. My mum knows the horse isnt under weight and wanted to prove a point to the woman, answers on here are about 50/50 some saying he's fine some saying they would like to see a little more weight, so it's simply down to personal preference, i have however taken on everyone's advice and appreciate it all
		
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They are not 50 : 50 what people have said is that your horse is too lean, and it is difficult to know how much leaner he would be if he was only getting what you want to feed him, at no point have you given us any reason why he can't get enough to eat.


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

rhino said:



			How much does he get? In kgs, forage and hard feed, and what hard feed? Who advised you, a nutritionist?

Ignore the fact you know other horses who work more and fed less, treat the horse as an individual. Mine managed to remain eventing/team chase fit on no hard feed at all but was exceptionally well muscled. In fact, despite being retired, spending all winter on box rest and having no hard feed he is still vastly better muscled than your boy, and he's in his 20s. They're all different!

He doesn't need to be fat, but at 6 he is hardly a baby and he looks very undermuscled for his type; he is not a thoroughbred.
		
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We dont weigh it, he is given a stuffed haynet at night, aswell as 1 scoop of oats and conditioning mix. He is actually Thoroughbred X Warmblood


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## rhino (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			We dont weigh it, he is given a stuffed haynet at night, aswell as 1 scoop of oats and conditioning mix. He is actually Thoroughbred X Warmblood
		
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Well you need to start weighing it, otherwise you don't actually know what his intake is. If he is such a good doer that you can't feed ad lib hay, why does he get oats and conditioning mix 

Mine is tbxwb too but much finer than your boy, he has always done better on as close to ad lib forage as possible, a supplement to provide his vits and mins, and *no* hard feed!


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			They are not 50 : 50 what people have said is that your horse is too lean, and it is difficult to know how much leaner he would be if he was only getting what you want to feed him, at no point have you given us any reason why he can't get enough to eat.
		
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I wouldnt let him get any leaner as i have already said, if he loses any condition now that the extra feed has stopped i will add more hay to his diet if he needs it as that is not an issue


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## goldenmint (8 June 2012)

OP does he get a morning feed, could you change him onto a mixture of part hay part haylage? Can he stay out on good grass for longer each day or 24hrs if weather good? 
What conditioning mix are you using? And why the scoop of oats?


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## Shysmum (8 June 2012)

That is the key - weigh the hay once it's in a haynet !! The hook weigh things you can get are fab for that. Then you at least have a point to start at


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

rhino said:



			Well you need to start weighing it, otherwise you don't actually know what his intake is. If he is such a good doer that you can't feed ad lib hay, why does he get oats and conditioning mix 

Mine is tbxwb too but much finer than your boy, he has always done better on as close to ad lib forage as possible, a supplement to provide his vits and mins, and *no* hard feed!
		
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When he was given adlib hay last year he piled the weight on which is why he is restricted this year


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

shysmum said:



			That is the key - weigh the hay once it's in a haynet !! The hook weigh things you can get are fab for that. Then you at least have a point to start at 

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Thanks i will look into starting this


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## Miss L Toe (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			We dont weigh it, he is given a stuffed haynet at night, aswell as 1 scoop of oats and conditioning mix. He is actually Thoroughbred X Warmblood
		
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Half a scoop of conditioning mix will not meet his daily requirements for minerals and vitamins. If he does not get these, he will not be able to make best use of his forage or his oats.
I recognise a brick wall when I see it.


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## HashRouge (8 June 2012)

I would suggest upping his forage slightly - I agree with the general concensus, which is that he isn't skinny, just a little lean. But I think the leanness could well be due to lack of muscle and, as someone else said, that may be because he is burning muscle rather than fat. If you want him to build up muscle, then obviously this is counterproductive. I wouldn't suggest increasing his hard feed though.
For a horse like yours, I wouldn't think that ad-lib forage would be harmful. He doesn't look like he's ever going to be a fatty and, if he is in a reasonable amount of work, you will probably find that he stays at a good weight. My sister spent all winter keeping her pony on a very strict diet because he was on box rest and the sort that you'd call a lami-risk, but he's now at a rehab facility (sure some HHO'ers will know where) and is fed ad-lib haylage during the day and is out in the field all night. Yet his weight looks wonderful, because he is now in work. I certainly think you could give your boy another, maybe smaller net without it doing any harm at all.


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## Holly Hocks (8 June 2012)

OP - have you got some photos of him when he was getting adlib forage just to show how obese he got?  It would be interesting to compare them to see the difference.


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

goldenmint said:



			OP does he get a morning feed, could you change him onto a mixture of part hay part haylage? Can he stay out on good grass for longer each day or 24hrs if weather good? 
What conditioning mix are you using? And why the scoop of oats?
		
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He gets an evening feed only! Vets advice was throughout spring/summer months keep him on hay, he is usually out longer at the weekend but during the week cant have him out any longer than 12 hours. D&H conditioning mix, it was suggested by several people as its a natural food source and a good provider of energy


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## marlyclay (8 June 2012)

A stuffed haynet means nothing.
Haynets come in different sizes. Some peoples idea of a full haynet may differ from others. I agree that you should weigh it so you know exactly what you are feeding. 
When I looked at your photos my first impression was lovely horse with a big frame that he hasnt filled. He lacks muscle and is slightly underweight.


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## Holly Hocks (8 June 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			I recognise a brick wall when I see it.
		
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Banging head against it?


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## BarmyC (8 June 2012)

lcharles said:



			Too many over weight horse are about which is why people think fit and healthy horses are 'underweight' x he looks lovely x Few people said my horse was underweight when he was hunting/team chasing fit, we have a yard full of happy hackers with over weight horse x Ignore the women and carry on as you are, hes gorgeous x 

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LIKE this comment a lot!!

My horse is also hunting/team chasing fit and i am constantly getting told that she is seriously underweight.  This coming from people who own morbidly obese cobs that can barely trot up our hills!!

OP carry on as you are he looks great to me


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## pookie (8 June 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			Pookie, I don't think the education system is like it used to be......
		
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You're not wrong!


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## Queenbee (8 June 2012)

OP, you state that he has plenty of grazing, hard feed, and the hay you are giving him, that combined with the extras the other woman is giving him equates to how he looks now. If I were you, id do as you plan and double net the hay at night but at the same time as ensuring this woman does not feed him, I'd be adding an extra cake of hay each night. Now, you do not need to take away what she is adding to see what the result will be, you know this will logically have an effect. An extra cake will not make him fat, and whilst he doesn't need to be larger, he should be developing topline and muscle on the work  he is doing, he is obviously not getting enough to be able to do this, so you already know that regardless of what she is feeding he could do with a tad more, not for fat but for muscle. You could of course provide this energy with additional hard feed, but far better for your horse to provide it with forage. Should he start to look a bit bigger, you can always start to adjust this down a bit, he can gain a bit of weight and he will still look as fab as he does, but he couldn't get away with losing it, he would look underweight. If it were me, I'd be adding a cake of hay to a double Haynet a night, stopping this woman's interference, weight taping him and continue to monitor, then take it from there, but remember whatever he is receiving at the moment (including what she is feeding) is obviously not enough to build his muscle sufficiently... And when he is all muscled up he will look so much more handsome than he already does. So you already know you need to increase his intake on some level, and forage would be the best way. Hopefully the comments on here will provide your mum with a greater understanding of this


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## StarlightMagic (8 June 2012)

You asked for advice, you got advice. Now all your doing is arguing as to why your right and everyone else is wrong. Agree with brick wall comment


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## goldenmint (8 June 2012)

I wouldn't argue with your vet I'm sure he is by far mire qualified than me on what to feed, but can I suggest you have a really good chat with a feed company ( the nutrionalist at D&H would be a good place to start as you are using their mix anyway)

If it was me I would feed ad lib hay or haylage depending on horse, I would then feed a good quality balancer with a little basic chaff and go from there. See if he needs anymore than that, if so I would think about using haylage rather than hay and using oil. If he still needed more after that I would go down the build up mix route. 

Of course this is your horse and this is only what I would do if it was me.  I would think getting advice from vet or nutritionalyst would be a good plan though. He really doesnt need a lot more weight, just a bit of tweaking to give his muscles extra fuel


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

astonsmummy said:



			You asked for advice, you got advice. Now all your doing is arguing as to why your right and everyone else is wrong. Agree with brick wall comment
		
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And i have taken your advice on board just like everyone elses! I am not arguing with what your saying at all!


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## Optimus Prime (8 June 2012)

Not right for someone else to feed him. but i would say he needs a little more meat on him as i can see his ribs from the pic and they should be felt but not seen


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

goldenmint said:



			I wouldn't argue with your vet I'm sure he is by far mire qualified than me on what to feed, but can I suggest you have a really good chat with a feed company ( the nutrionalist at D&H would be a good place to start as you are using their mix anyway)

If it was me I would feed ad lib hay or haylage depending on horse, I would then feed a good quality balancer with a little basic chaff and go from there. See if he needs anymore than that, if so I would think about using haylage rather than hay and using oil. If he still needed more after that I would go down the build up mix route. 

Of course this is your horse and this is only what I would do if it was me.  I would think getting advice from vet or nutritionalyst would be a good plan though. He really doesnt need a lot more weight, just a bit of tweaking to give his muscles extra fuel 

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Thanks, yes think i will speak to and get more advice from the vet or nutitionalyst


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## You Wont Forget Me (8 June 2012)

This discussion could go on forever, i appreciate everyones feedback on the matter and will take on board all advice given and leave it at that!


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## GinaGeo (8 June 2012)

Now this might be really stupid. Why don't you ask the interfering livery how much and how often she was supplementing his diet? Then you can increase how much you're giving proportionally.  They need to be getting sufficient protein to build muscle, if he's in correct work at his age he really ought to be buiding it - he's not so you need to increase the protein in his diet. As others have said weighing the Hay is also necessary so you know how much he is getting.


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## Parker79 (8 June 2012)

OP - I think when you see your horse day in day out it is very hard sometimes to get it just right...we are all sooo paranoid about overfeeding and horses being fat (especially youngsters) that I dont blame you for airing on the leaner side...I bet your vet agreed as most would...I would say from an outsiders view that he is a little lean and people are advising well on here IMO.

I think he is lovely and you should be relieved he can take more hay....I hate it when a stable horse needs too much restriction! so enjoy the fact he can take some more feed.

I would do as others have said..up his forage, look at a balancer for his vits. Buy a weigh hook as I wouldn't be without unless feeding adlib.

Perhaps the lady felt she couldn't speak with you...or that you were very unlikely to change your views...she still shouldn't have fed...she should have reported her concerns to the YO.


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## Dry Rot (8 June 2012)

An old man, a boy, and a pony called Fergus once set out for market. On the way to the market, the boy told the old man to ride and he would walk. A little way down the road, they met some people. One of these said to his companions, "Look at that lazy old man riding while he makes that poor young lad walk!"

So the old man got off the pony and the boy got on.

The next lot of people they met remarked, "Look at that! Just the lad riding when the pony is quite strong enough to carry them both! They must be stupid!". So they both got on the pony.

Another mile down the road, they met some more people. One remarked how cruel they were to both be riding the pony, adding, "Those b*st*ards should carry that poor little pony! Fancy making him carry them both! Call the RSPCA!".

So they got off the pony, picked it up between them, and carried it the rest of the way to the market. When they got there, everyone fell about laughing to see two men carrying a pony!

So, there you go. There is no pleasing everyone in this world. If I had started this thread, I would have thanked everyone profusely for their advice about 20 pages ago and gone off and done what I felt was the right thing. Some people will never be satisfied with what you say or do so there is really no point in worrying what they will think. A wise old man once told me always to ask for advice (as the OP has done), adding with a smile, "You don't have to take it!"


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## Queenbee (8 June 2012)

Op, just do a google for 'feeding for top line in horses' or 'how to develop top line in horses' you will come up with some really informative stuff.

As an aside, the other horses that you see on much less than your horse... Well this could be for any number of reasons, different metabolism, high oil feeds... Less feed but way higher calories, being just two. At six your horse is able to build muscle/top line and the only reason it is lacking is his energy intake is just sufficient to keep him looking the way he is now, it takes the body energy to develop muscle, your horse is not being fed excess energy that he can use for this at present.


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## Arabelle (8 June 2012)

Dry Rot said:



			An old man, a boy, and a pony called Fergus once set out for market. On the way to the market, the boy told the old man to ride and he would walk. A little way down the road, they met some people. One of these said to his companions, "Look at that lazy old man riding while he makes that poor young lad walk!"

So the old man got off the pony and the boy got on.

The next lot of people they met remarked, "Look at that! Just the lad riding when the pony is quite strong enough to carry them both! They must be stupid!". So they both got on the pony.

Another mile down the road, they met some more people. One remarked how cruel they were to both be riding the pony, adding, "Those b*st*ards should carry that poor little pony! Fancy making him carry them both! Call the RSPCA!".

So they got off the pony, picked it up between them, and carried it the rest of the way to the market. When they got there, everyone fell about laughing to see two men carrying a pony!

So, there you go. There is no pleasing everyone in this world. If I had started this thread, I would have thanked everyone profusely for their advice about 20 pages ago and gone off and done what I felt was the right thing. Some people will never be satisfied with what you say or do so there is really no point in worrying what they will think. A wise old man once told me always to ask for advice (as the OP has done), adding with a smile, "You don't have to take it!"

Click to expand...

I love this post   OP, as you know, your horse is not 'seriously underweight'  

Once you start engaging with the armchair experts of HHO you are onto a loser.  Better to spend the time with your pony rather than in engaging in fruitless debate with those who will always know best


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## rhino (8 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			my mum would like to hear some of your opinions of my horses weight! Please be honest, thanks!
		
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Arabelle said:



			Once you start engaging with the armchair experts of HHO you are onto a loser.  Better to spend the time with your pony rather than in engaging in fruitless debate with those who will always know best

Click to expand...

OP asked for opinions and now you're criticising people for offering their opinions


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## Parker79 (8 June 2012)

Arabelle said:



			I love this post   OP, as you know, your horse is not 'seriously underweight'  

Once you start engaging with the armchair experts of HHO you are onto a loser.  Better to spend the time with your pony rather than in engaging in fruitless debate with those who will always know best

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So if that is how you feel then why are you posting?


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## Moomin1 (8 June 2012)

OP has said on a number of occassions now, in a polite and pleasant manner, that she will take on board the advice offered.  I think we can safely put the matter to bed now and move on! 

Poor OP will need some paracetamol by the end of this!


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## cambrica (8 June 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			OP has said on a number of occassions now, in a polite and pleasant manner, that she will take on board the advice offered.  I think we can safely put the matter to bed now and move on! 

Poor OP will need some paracetamol by the end of this!
		
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Totally agree. 

Offering an opinion is one thing - to which the OP has taken on board. 
Being out & out witches as at least three posters on here have been is not constructive and although tone does not always translate well when written there is no mistaking their tone. 
IMO I would much rather see a horse in this condition than one even slightly overweight resulting in long term health problems.  As we all know there are far too many ponies/horses out there seriously overweight that it is becoming the norm. Having natives I am constantly battling weight issues even on minimal hay at this time of year and being told by show judges that I need to seriously 'bulk' them up. I just wish my vet was there to give them some advice as I know exactly how he feels.
OP, there is some good advice on here- take it. There is also some unnecessary cutting remarks which I would choose to ignore and as for the person feeding your horse - well I would personally go BALLISTIC at them.


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## Queenofdiamonds (8 June 2012)

Personally, I would feed him more given the amount of work you do with him. I would have thought that if he were getting the correct feeding, Then he would have more muscle and topline by now though.


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## Hot_Toddy7 (8 June 2012)

cambrica said:



			Totally agree. 

Offering an opinion is one thing - to which the OP has taken on board. 
Being out & out witches as at least three posters on here have been is not constructive and although tone does not always translate well when written there is no mistaking their tone. 
IMO I would much rather see a horse in this condition than one even slightly overweight resulting in long term health problems.  As we all know there are far too many ponies/horses out there seriously overweight that it is becoming the norm. Having natives I am constantly battling weight issues even on minimal hay at this time of year and being told by show judges that I need to seriously 'bulk' them up. I just wish my vet was there to give them some advice as I know exactly how he feels.
OP, there is some good advice on here- take it. There is also some unnecessary cutting remarks which I would choose to ignore and as for the person feeding your horse - well I would personally go BALLISTIC at them.
		
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^Totally agree..
I'm still a little shocked at some peoples responses, when you consider the horses out there that ARE starved! No wonder there are so many 'lurkers', it's a pretty terrifying place to post about any form of issue, sensitive or not. 

Some people have lean TB's, some have porky cobs, it has never been my place to truly tell someone that what they are doing is so very wrong, as so many have done to the OP here. Unless the horse is suffering as a result of it's bodyweight, then there is an element of accepting 'every horse is individual', the OP has stated a fair few times that she is taking the advice on board, and in my opinion has been very chivalrous despite some very vindictive replies. 

For what it's worth, I think he is a very handsome boy


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## pookie (8 June 2012)

Hot_Toddy7 said:



			I'm still a little shocked at some peoples responses, when you consider the horses out there that ARE starved! No wonder there are so many 'lurkers', it's a pretty terrifying place to post about any form of issue, sensitive or not. 

...despite some very vindictive replies.
		
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I've been following this thread all day but I can't say I've seen any "very vindictive replies", although it's possible I've missed a post or two. I think what some people are frustrated with is the way the OP has asked for opinions yet doesn't seem to want to hear any that disagree with her. I know she has said she will take everyone's posts on board, but there've been a fair few "no but..." replies to others' suggestions. That's entirely the OP's prerogative - she's not obliged to do anything anyone suggests.

I still think there is no point judging the weight or condition of the horse from the photos posted in this thread as the OP has no idea how much extra food her horse has been receiving from the other livery. If it's very little, then the photos are probably reasonably accurate; if it's a lot then the photos may be grossly misrepresentative of the condition of the horse prior to the other livery feeding.

None of that excuses the other livery's actions, but then the point of the OP was whether HHO thinks the horse is (was!) "seriously underweight"...which none of us can judge after the extra feeding.


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## Munchkin (8 June 2012)

monkeybum13 said:



			For those thank think it is acceptable for another livery to be giving him extra hay would you think it acceptable for someone to go in an overweight horses stable and remove some of their food?

If its not your horse don't feed it. If you think there is something wrong with the horses weight then talk to the owner, don't go feeding it without permission.
		
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This, regardless of weight. If the owner thinks the horse is maintaining weight on the feed they are giving it, why would they ever increase it? It's not up to someone else to 'sneak' the horse extra haylage, that's helping nobody in the long run.


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## Hot_Toddy7 (8 June 2012)

pookie said:



			I still think there is no point judging the weight or condition of the horse from the photos posted in this thread as the OP has no idea how much extra food her horse has been receiving from the other livery. If it's very little, then the photos are probably reasonably accurate; if it's a lot then the photos may be grossly misrepresentative of the condition of the horse prior to the other livery feeding.
		
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Yes I agree with you on this bit. We, in all honesty, have no idea what this 'extra hay' amounts to, in the same way that the OP doesn't. In my eyes the horse doesn't look drastically underweight, maybe a little lean, but some like them that way, and as long as he isn't suffering, all we can do is offer friendly advice, that is advice based on personal opinion.

I think I'll go back to lurking, even reading disagreements on forums gets me all anxious  *Climbs back into crazy persons box*


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## Lyle (8 June 2012)

I think he is a smidge under 'ideal' (ie fit, but well covered) judging by the size of his frame he looks to be a big, solid horse, which his weight is not demonstrating. That said, I would always prefer a slightly leaner horse than one that is over weight. I think they cope much better with work than something lugging extra kgs around.  

I think many people mistake a slightly underdone horse like this and think it looks like a super fit horse in hard condition. This horse is lacking in muscle tone, and top line, where as a horse in hard condition should be covered in lean muscle mass and will have a top line.

I think the main concern here is that with a slight increase in work, this horse could be in danger of becoming under weight. As it is, he looks to just be receiving enough carbs/fats/proteins in his diet to maintain some condition. Personally, I would be increasing his feed, because he will not develop a topline if he doesn't have the right nutrition. If you are keeping him light on purpose for the sake of temperament while you educate him a bit, there is nothing wrong with that as long as you carefully moniter his condition and also his protein/carb intake otherwise he could turn very quickly. 

As to the other livery feeding him... well I would be furious! Being sneaky will never achieve anything, and has perhaps backfired on her because I don't think anyone would be particularly accepting of why she did it! If she'd maybe approached the subject in an open and friendly way and left it open for discussion, it would have probably worked better.


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## competitiondiva (8 June 2012)

Haven't read all your replies here but would say.... Get hold of a copy of the DEFRA codes of practice for horses and refer anyone saying your horse is underweight to page 11, and ask them which your horse resembles, here is the link: http://archive.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/pets/cruelty/documents/cop-horse.pdf take all angles into account, i.e might be a 2 in the rib area, a 3 over the pelvis, a 2 in the neck (these are just examples) and take the average over all the scores as the overall score....


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## cambrica (8 June 2012)

pookie said:



			I've been following this thread all day but I can't say I've seen any "very vindictive replies", although it's possible I've missed a post or two. I think what some people are frustrated with is the way the OP has asked for opinions yet doesn't seem to want to hear any that disagree with her. I know she has said she will take everyone's posts on board, but there've been a fair few "no but..." replies to others' suggestions. That's entirely the OP's prerogative - she's not obliged to do anything anyone suggests.

I still think there is no point judging the weight or condition of the horse from the photos posted in this thread as the OP has no idea how much extra food her horse has been receiving from the other livery. If it's very little, then the photos are probably reasonably accurate; if it's a lot then the photos may be grossly misrepresentative of the condition of the horse prior to the other livery feeding.

None of that excuses the other livery's actions, but then the point of the OP was whether HHO thinks the horse is (was!) "seriously underweight"...which none of us can judge after the extra feeding.
		
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Possibly then you should read your response to feeding = muscle tone as that carries very sarcastic undertones along with Hollyhocks response.

Feeding up does not increase muscle. Feeding extra when combined with a training / exercise program does. 
The fact remains that the horse is in no way 'seriously underweight' and now he's finished growing upwards should bulk out naturally over the next year or two.


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## Dolcé (8 June 2012)

The horse is right for just coming out of winter, the spring grass is flying through and if he is on 12 hours grazing then a 6-8k haynet should be adequate (work out 2% of his ideal bodyweight to maintain condition).  OP could perhaps use a haylage net or double net to slow him down with it if necessary, and I would agree that hard feed should be weighed although if he were mine then I would probably cut the hard feed completely and give vitamins instead.  A few more weeks on good spring grass and this horse will look totally different, ours are only now starting to show the effects, they are out 24/7 on it and we have 8 on around 20 acres of decent grass so no shortage.


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## pookie (9 June 2012)

cambrica said:



			Possibly then you should read your response to feeding = muscle tone as that carries very sarcastic undertones along with Hollyhocks response.

Feeding up does not increase muscle. Feeding extra when combined with a training / exercise program does. 
The fact remains that the horse is in no way 'seriously underweight' and now he's finished growing upwards should bulk out naturally over the next year or two.
		
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If you consider that a "very vindictive reply" then you're surprisingly delicate. Organisms require energy to convert into cells - the OP's comment read as if feeding (up/out/sideways) wasn't required to build muscle. My question to the OP was genuine, and yes it does seem as if the education system is failing the younger generation.

For the third time, you're judging the horse's weight based on unknown quantities of extra feeding - I agree that *currently* he is not *seriously* underweight.

Very vindictive that was not.


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## Hot_Toddy7 (9 June 2012)

What generation counts as 'the younger generation' please? Need to see if I fit into the failing education timescale


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## Dolcé (9 June 2012)

Hot_Toddy7 said:



			What generation counts as 'the younger generation' please? Need to see if I fit into the failing education timescale 

Click to expand...

LOL, me too, think I must have been failed, although it is a long time since I have been a member of a younger generation.


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## Moomin1 (9 June 2012)

pookie said:



			If you consider that a "very vindictive reply" then you're surprisingly delicate. Organisms require energy to convert into cells - the OP's comment read as if feeding (up/out/sideways) wasn't required to build muscle. My question to the OP was genuine, and yes it does seem as if the education system is failing the younger generation.

For the third time, you're judging the horse's weight based on unknown quantities of extra feeding - I agree that *currently* he is not *seriously* underweight.

Very vindictive that was not.
		
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Not everyone excels at certain subjects you know!  I didn't excel at maths or Welsh but I still ended up with a science degree and a decent career.  Doesn't mean I can do basic maths for toffee.  I still don't expect people to make nasty comments about it.  Which I read your comment to be - pretty nasty and harsh on OP.


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## competitiondiva (9 June 2012)

competitiondiva said:



			Haven't read all your replies here but would say.... Get hold of a copy of the DEFRA codes of practice for horses and refer anyone saying your horse is underweight to page 11, and ask them which your horse resembles, here is the link: http://archive.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/pets/cruelty/documents/cop-horse.pdf take all angles into account, i.e might be a 2 in the rib area, a 3 over the pelvis, a 2 in the neck (these are just examples) and take the average over all the scores as the overall score....
		
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Forgot to say, you also need to condition score according to the type of horse he is, i.e a tb is normal to have a prominent wither and ribs seen more than a cob say... Here's a helpful video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu7ksGa9XJ4


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## Hot_Toddy7 (9 June 2012)

Dolcé;10783158 said:
			
		


			LOL, me too, think I must have been failed, although it is a long time since I have been a member of a younger generation.
		
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Wanna skip some lessons, smoke and drink whiskey by the bike sheds?


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## cambrica (9 June 2012)

pookie said:



			If you consider that a "very vindictive reply" then you're surprisingly delicate. Organisms require energy to convert into cells - the OP's comment read as if feeding (up/out/sideways) wasn't required to build muscle. My question to the OP was genuine, and yes it does seem as if the education system is failing the younger generation.

For the third time, you're judging the horse's weight based on unknown quantities of extra feeding - I agree that *currently* he is not *seriously* underweight.

Very vindictive that was not.
		
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Very vindictive was not my response. 
Sarcastic tones and unconstructive critism was. 
I've been described as many things but delicate is not one of them. The education system is certainly not failing my kids and having taken exams in botany, biology and horticulture myself Im well aware of what is required to sustain life. This however has very little to do with the original post written by a young lady seeking advice and in a very grown up manner responding.


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## pookie (9 June 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Not everyone excels at certain subjects you know!  I didn't excel at maths or Welsh but I still ended up with a science degree and a decent career.  Doesn't mean I can do basic maths for toffee.  I still don't expect people to make nasty comments about it.  Which I read your comment to be - pretty nasty and harsh on OP.
		
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Seriously? "Pretty nasty and harsh" to expect animal owners to understand muscle isn't manufactured from thin air? That food, in addition to that required for mere maintenance, is required? Crikey


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## Moomin1 (9 June 2012)

pookie said:



			Seriously? "Pretty nasty and harsh" to expect animal owners to understand muscle isn't manufactured from thin air? That food, in addition to that required for mere maintenance, is required? Crikey 

Click to expand...

You could inform OP of that in a mature manner instead of being sarcastic.

OP has done herself pretty proud to remain mature and not bitten back, when some people on this thread have basically insinuated she is thick.


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## pookie (9 June 2012)

cambrica said:



			Very vindictive was not my response. 
Sarcastic tones and unconstructive critism was. 
I've been described as many things but delicate is not one of them. The education system is certainly not failing my kids and having taken exams in botany, biology and horticulture myself Im well aware of what is required to sustain life. This however has very little to do with the original post written by a young lady seeking advice and in a very grown up manner responding.
		
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You responded to my post saying I hadn't seen anything "very vindictive" with "possibly then you should read your response".

Having lectured I beg to differ standards in education are falling.

As you say, this has got nothing to do with the OP's original query as to whether her horse is "seriously underweight".


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## pookie (9 June 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			You could inform OP of that in a mature manner instead of being sarcastic.

OP has done herself pretty proud to remain mature and not bitten back, when some people on this thread have basically insinuated she is thick.
		
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For the second time, I wasn't being sarcastic. My question to her was genuine. 

Intelligence has nothing to do with whether the education system is working or not.


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## Moomin1 (9 June 2012)

pookie said:



			For the second time, I wasn't being sarcastic. My question to her was genuine. 

Intelligence has nothing to do with whether the education system is working or not.[/QUOTE

Was it necessary to include the education system in your response to OP?  I would class that as sarcastic.  Seems other people here would too.  By saying that the education system seems to be failing, you are implying that OP has a less than adequate intelligence level.
		
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## pookie (9 June 2012)

Moomin1 said:





pookie said:



			For the second time, I wasn't being sarcastic. My question to her was genuine. 

Intelligence has nothing to do with whether the education system is working or not.
		
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Was it necessary to include the education system in your response to OP?  I would class that as sarcastic.  Seems other people here would too.  By saying that the education system seems to be failing, you are implying that OP has a less than adequate intelligence level.
		
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I didn't. I was replying to Holly Hocks' comment:



Holly Hocks said:



			Pookie, I don't think the education system is like it used to be......
		
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As it happens, I thoroughly agree with her. That's not "very vindictive", "sarcastic", or "pretty harsh".


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## Moomin1 (9 June 2012)

pookie said:



			I didn't. I was replying to Holly Hocks' comment:



As it happens, I thoroughly agree with her. That's not "very vindictive", "sarcastic", or "pretty harsh".
		
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Ok.


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## cambrica (9 June 2012)

pookie said:



			Really? How else d'you think muscle is produced? 

Click to expand...




Holly Hocks said:



			Pookie, I don't think the education system is like it used to be......
		
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pixiebee said:



			ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!! Nobody has said feeding him up will bring muscle, do you not understand basic science? How is your horse possibly going to build muscle when there is NOTHING on him to turn into muscle. Thats why athletes need GOOD diets and more calories than most people in order to not only maintain good weight but build muscle!!!
		
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pookie said:



			You're not wrong!
		
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Not sarcastic ???


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## Moomin1 (9 June 2012)

cambrica said:



			Not sarcastic ??? 

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Quite!! 

And to think lecturers are actually there to support and help people....no WONDER the education system may have failed in the first place!


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## millimoo (9 June 2012)

Crikey.... I only went away for half a day - what the frig happened???   
Can't even be bothered to read it all - just saying


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## pookie (9 June 2012)

cambrica said:



			Not sarcastic ??? 

Click to expand...

Correct. My posts weren't sarcastic. I wanted to know how the OP thought muscle was produced if not through increased feeding and I *do* think the education system is failing.

If I had been sarcastic I'd have no problem admitting it.


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## pookie (9 June 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Quite!! 

And to think lecturers are actually there to support and help people....no WONDER the education system may have failed in the first place! 

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They're also there to *teach* things. Rolleyes indeed.


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## pookie (9 June 2012)

millimoo said:



			Crikey.... I only went away for half a day - what the frig happened???   
Can't even be bothered to read it all - just saying 

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Ha! You don't want to know


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## Moomin1 (9 June 2012)

pookie said:



			Correct. My posts weren't sarcastic. I wanted to know how the OP thought muscle was produced if not through increased feeding and I *do* think the education system is failing.

If I had been sarcastic I'd have no problem admitting it.
		
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Haha!! Funny!! SERIOUSLY?!!! 

..Oh - and I'm not being sarcastic - just interested in whether you are serious or not..


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## pookie (9 June 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Haha!! Funny!! SERIOUSLY?!!! 

..Oh - and I'm not being sarcastic - just interested in whether you are serious or not..

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Not sure how many more times I have to repeat myself. Yes, seriously. Really, genuinely, absolutely seriously.

However, I'm happy to bow out. You're entitled to your opinion.


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## Wagtail (9 June 2012)

Sorry to derail the thread, but on another subject, OP have you noticed your horse has some muscle wasting (wither pockets) developing, which I really wouldn't expect to see on a six year old. It would indicate that your saddle is too narrow. If you have had the same one from when he was four, then he probably needs a refit. If not, then I would still urge you to look at his saddle ASAP.


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## Shysmum (9 June 2012)

BLIMEY is this still going ?? 

By the time it dies down, we'll be able to ask the owner whether the horse lost weight on less hay


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## Amymay (9 June 2012)

Just read your post on the amount of work your six year old is doing.  I would expect him to look tremendous if he's doing all that, and is being fed properly.

He doesn't. He looks weak, and, as has been said, lacking muscle (as has been said before).

I would say this is a really great opportunity to review your feeding management of your lovely horse.


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## Eventa (17 June 2012)

I read this post with great interest as I am "the woman" referred to here.
As you will all be aware there are always two sides to a story and I would like to post mine.
At no point did I say the horse was "seriously underweight".
Having noticed a sign on the horses stable stating that no one was to feed the horse anything whatsoever without her permission, that evening, as the teenage rider's mother was at the yard, and I had been wanting to discuss this matter with her but had not seen her, bearing in mind that the mum is new to horses and has asked my advice in the past, I decided I would explain to her why the horse had been getting a a small amount of haylage over the door to him in the evening.
The horse in question is approx 16.2/16.3hh, and of significant bone. I had recently noticed he has clearly visible ribs, (I am very well aware of condition scoring and I event one of my horses and most certainly do not advocate "show condition" on horses as I am well aware this can lead to laminitis and associated illnesses)and the horse referred to is in ridden work most days. My own horses are weightaped every month and are very fit muscularly and aerobically. 
The sole reason for this horse being given some haylage late in the evening is because he was left with no hay whatsoever after finishing his haynet by 1900 hrs every night. He is on a shavings type pellet bedding and so cannot keep his gut healthy by providing his basis needs of grazing for approx 18 hrs per 24 hr period. He was showing signs of stressing and very miserable. I am well aware that the owner is difficult to make suggestion to and so, purely in the best interests of the horse, he was given some haylage.
This has always been standard practice in any yard I have been on in the 28 years of horse ownership. This is of course, unless the horse is on a restricted diet and is not in need of extra calories.
I explained the reason for providing the haylage to the owners. I also explained that the horse had nothing whatsoever to eat from 1900 hrs until turnout the following day which could be anywhere from 0700-0900 hrs. I believe the owner has in the past owned ponies and I was informed by her that one small haynet per night was all they got and that this was the reasoning behind this particular horse receiving the same amount.
I fully explained that this horse is not a pony and is of significant bone and has a large frame, and that going without forage for such lengthy periods can lead to ulcers and other gastic problems as well as phsycological issues, all due to a horse being deprived of its basic needs. I also explained that it is not hard feed this horse requires but more fibre in order to provide the horse with enough calories and provide the min 85% fibre based diet all horses need. 
The horse was being provided one haynet per night, the net was of the smallest type available and the hay was not being weighed and so the correct fibre weight to horse body weight ratio not being achieved.  
I am very disappointed that the advice of a level headed and experienced horsewoman could not have been taken on board by one so young of age and the benefit of this experience be used in a positive way. We all know that every day is a learning experience with horses and I have trainers and very knowledgable people on hand to provide me with knowledge at all times. We all need that and any advice I do pass on has come from very very experienced people. 
This to me sums up the awareness issues and education required by this owner. Although I have been aware of this for some time dating back to when the horse was deliberately left by the owner with no rug on at all in mid winter and given nothing to eat as he had "schooled badly". As if horses think in that way and learn in that manner!
Thank you for reading this.


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## Wagtail (17 June 2012)

Thank you for putting your side to this, Eventa. Some of us have struggled on here to persuade the OP that her horse DOES require extra haylage. I hope that he is now getting it.


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## piebaldsparkle (17 June 2012)

Would be interested if the OP made any changes, following this post.


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## rhino (17 June 2012)

Interesting Eventa, some very salient points there


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## Honey08 (17 June 2012)

DragonSlayer said:



			OP - the best advice I can give you is to ask your vet. On here, you will never get a unanimous answer, ask someone who has the qualification to give you the answers you need. You can then tell the interfering busy-body to shove it. I'd also be onto the YO who needs to be warning off the person who is feeding your horse...
		
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I agree with this.



Dry Rot said:



			An old man, a boy, and a pony called Fergus once set out for market. On the way to the market, the boy told the old man to ride and he would walk. A little way down the road, they met some people. One of these said to his companions, "Look at that lazy old man riding while he makes that poor young lad walk!"

So the old man got off the pony and the boy got on.

The next lot of people they met remarked, "Look at that! Just the lad riding when the pony is quite strong enough to carry them both! They must be stupid!". So they both got on the pony.

Another mile down the road, they met some more people. One remarked how cruel they were to both be riding the pony, adding, "Those b*st*ards should carry that poor little pony! Fancy making him carry them both! Call the RSPCA!".

So they got off the pony, picked it up between them, and carried it the rest of the way to the market. When they got there, everyone fell about laughing to see two men carrying a pony!

So, there you go. There is no pleasing everyone in this world. If I had started this thread, I would have thanked everyone profusely for their advice about 20 pages ago and gone off and done what I felt was the right thing. Some people will never be satisfied with what you say or do so there is really no point in worrying what they will think. A wise old man once told me always to ask for advice (as the OP has done), adding with a smile, "You don't have to take it!"

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Love this!


I would LOVE my horses to look in that  condition coming out of winter and into summer grazing.  My two are fatties through and through.  I don't think there was very much wrong with the horse's condition.

While Eventa's comments explained her side of the story, they did come across as a bit "I'm Soooo experienced, you really should take my advice..."  So I can see why they didn't take the advice.  Sorry Eventa.  I actually read the posts from the OP as very polite and respectful to those that she didn't agree with, so didn't see the teenager that didn't want to learn.

I think people are getting a bit het up over something tiny on this thread really!

ps, my big 17h ISH looked quite scrawny and light at 5-6, then filled out his frame at 7.  Someone thought he was a TB when he now looks like a ID.  He just needed time to fill his frame.  

Another note, I'm an instructor and event too, so have a bit of experience myself, but wouldn't be pushing my opinions unless the horse was a lot skinnier than this...


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## Wagtail (17 June 2012)

Honey08 said:



			would LOVE my horses to look in that  condition coming out of winter and into summer grazing.  My two are fatties through and through.  I don't think there was very much wrong with the horse's condition.

While Eventa's comments explained her side of the story, they did come across as a bit "I'm Soooo experienced, you really should take my advice..."  So I can see why they didn't take the advice.  Sorry Eventa.  I actually read the posts from the OP as very polite and respectful to those that she didn't agree with, so didn't see the teenager that didn't want to learn.

I think people are getting a bit het up over something tiny on this thread really!

ps, my big 17h ISH looked quite scrawny and light at 5-6, then filled out his frame at 7.  Someone thought he was a TB when he now looks like a ID.  He just needed time to fill his frame.  

Another note, I'm an instructor and event too, so have a bit of experience myself, but wouldn't be pushing my opinions unless the horse was a lot skinnier than this...
		
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Do you think it acceptable that the OPs horse is left without forage for 12 to 14 hours every day? Also, do you think that leaving a horse rugless and without food in winter because he did not school well, is acceptable treatment?


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## Eventa (17 June 2012)

Dear HOney08
I certainly don't think of myself that way but as I am 3 times her age (unfortunately) I do have way more experience in horses and thats just maths.
I guess its different when actually there at the time things are said and things can be so very easily misconstrued on things like here, hence why I have never joined before!!! I simply wished to express the reasoning behind it all and I dont think that the original topic and request should be forgotten here. My post was purely and simply to let others see exactly why it was done. I am very sure if on the yard and aware of the people involved here, you would have very different thoughts!!! I have no desire to be involved in any personal attacks on anyone here however I have done as I wanted to and posted my response
Regards


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## Honey08 (17 June 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Do you think it acceptable that the OPs horse is left without forage for 12 to 14 hours every day? Also, do you think that leaving a horse rugless and without food in winter because he did not school well, is acceptable treatment?
		
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I don't actually know that.  Thats just something that someone posted on a forum, and we all know how you get untrue postings on both sides....

I'm just going off the photo evidence that I can see with my own eyes...


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## Honey08 (17 June 2012)

Eventa said:



			Dear HOney08
I certainly don't think of myself that way but as I am 3 times her age (unfortunately) I do have way more experience in horses and thats just maths.
I guess its different when actually there at the time things are said and things can be so very easily misconstrued on things like here, hence why I have never joined before!!! I simply wished to express the reasoning behind it all and I dont think that the original topic and request should be forgotten here. My post was purely and simply to let others see exactly why it was done. I am very sure if on the yard and aware of the people involved here, you would have very different thoughts!!! I have no desire to be involved in any personal attacks on anyone here however I have done as I wanted to and posted my response
Regards
		
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Totally agree that you can only really know the truth if you are there. Everything else is just our opinion.. Respect to you.


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## Wagtail (17 June 2012)

Honey08 said:



			I don't actually know that.  Thats just something that someone posted on a forum, and we all know how you get untrue postings on both sides....

I'm just going off the photo evidence that I can see with my own eyes...
		
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The OP herself said the horse was left with a small net for the night. We all know that a small net left at 5 pm will be eaten within an hour or so. If she then returned by 7 am in the morning it would mean the horse is without forage for at least 12 hours out of every 24. Do you think that is acceptable?


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## Honey08 (17 June 2012)

Its not ideal, but I still don't think the horse looks underweight.  My two are having to come in during the day as they are so fat, and they will stand for a good few hours once they've finished their hay (3-4 probably) but having had two that got laminitis in the past its all I can do.  Double nets add on an hour perhaps to how long the nets last.  Add lib hay would be dangerous for these horses.


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## Wagtail (17 June 2012)

Honey08 said:



			Its not ideal, but I still don't think the horse looks underweight.  My two are having to come in during the day as they are so fat, and they will stand for a good few hours once they've finished their hay (3-4 probably) but having had two that got laminitis in the past its all I can do.  Double nets add on an hour perhaps to how long the nets last.  Add lib hay would be dangerous for these horses.
		
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I think there is a vast difference between standing without forage for 3 - 4 hours and standing without forage for 12 - 14 hours. I always hate it if I have to starve a horse for 12 hours before a veterinary procedure. But even that is only 12 hours. To do that every day is going to play havoc with the horse's digestive system.


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## Eventa (17 June 2012)

Hi reading the above posts and wanted to also mention that the horse in question has no specific dietary needs other than to be kept slim. 
At no time did I ever say the horse was underweight, I said that he lacked condition and top line for the size of his frame and that he was left with nothing to eat from 7pm the night before.
Also in respect of "being caught" giving haylage in the morning, I was in the yard that morning, the horse was nickering as I walked past him to go out of the yard, at that point the owner arrived and I said "ah thats why he is nickering -because you are here, I thought he was doing it at me" in a friendly light hearted manner. I was not "caught putting haylage in at all". 
Just to clear that up as well.
Anway I have had my say and all I truly hope is that, as the young girl involved will ask absolutely no one for advice on the yard and takes no advice on board in any case, all i truly hope is that she educates herself more from books, magazines etc and her horse will benefit hugely. 
All we all ever want is the best for all horses and had I known that offering a small bit of advice and simple observation (as i did not even know if they knew how quickly the haynet was eaten) Had I known it would lead to this I would never have tried to offer support. 
Burnt and bridges springs to mind lol!!


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## Wagtail (17 June 2012)

Is she feeding the horse more now?


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## rhino (17 June 2012)

Honey08 said:



			My two are having to come in during the day as they are so fat, and they will stand for a good few hours once they've finished their hay (3-4 probably) but having had two that got laminitis in the past its all I can do.  Double nets add on an hour perhaps to how long the nets last.  Add lib hay would be dangerous for these horses.
		
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I think that a 3 or 4 hours is a bit different for 12+, if that is indeed what was happening. I quite agree that ad lib, good quality, unsoaked hay would be dangerous, as yours are overweight. Laminitis is *not* fun!

Do you also feed your horses scoops of oats and conditioning mix, and are you attempting to build up their topline? That's what OP stated she was doing, which is why I really didn't understand her feeding regime.

Take away the hard feed, add a vit supplement, and the resulting calorie 'deficiency' could provide a decent amount more forage, especially if it was soaked etc.  Much better, physically and mentally, for the horse IMO.


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## Kiristamm (17 June 2012)

rhino said:



			I think that a 3 or 4 hours is a bit different for 12+, if that is indeed what was happening. I quite agree that ad lib, good quality, unsoaked hay would be dangerous, as yours are overweight. Laminitis is *not* fun!

Do you also feed your two horses scoops of oats and conditioning mix, and are you attempting to build up their topline? That's what OP stated she was doing, which is why I really didn't understand her feeding regime.

Take away the hard feed, add a vit supplement, and the resulting calorie 'deficiency' could provide a decent amount more forage, especially if it was soaked etc.  Much better, physically and mentally, for the horse IMO.
		
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well said


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## Miss L Toe (17 June 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Is she feeding the horse more now?
		
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chuckles....... obviously not, as the OP considers her horse is properly looked after, and is in perfect condition, therefore she needs neither advice not forage.


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## rockysmum (17 June 2012)

I've kept out of this up to now as I know mine tend towards show condition 

However I do think he is underweight, I know I will get shot down, but what the hell.

He is a large framed horse and fit or not I would be embarrased if he was mine.  And heaven knows what he would have looked like if people had not given him a bit extra.

Shame for the poor boy that someone isn't throwing him a bit extra but I dont agree with doing that.  Far better to have let him loose a bit more condition and then the OP might actually listen.

Did I read he was thoroughbred x warmblood - must have been a very heavy warmblood.


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## Arabelle (17 June 2012)

Well Eventa, you lost it for me when you couldn't resist adding a dig at the OP for allegedly leaving her horse out in winter to punish it. That made you seem like you wanted to have a go at the OP more than you wanted to help her horse.


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## piebaldsparkle (17 June 2012)

Totally off topic, but clicked on pic in OP's siggy







OP your martigale should be fitted to the top ring if you have double reins on a gag.  

Also didn't I see you posting a while back that you got large bales of hay for £20? (sorry if I have the wrong person), but if you do why the hell would you not make the most of that and reduce the hard feed (add vit/mins if necessary) and increase his hay to maintain his weight, hell at those prices you would save a packet and your horse would be better for it.


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## Wagtail (17 June 2012)

Arabelle said:



			Well Eventa, you lost it for me when you couldn't resist adding a dig at the OP for allegedly leaving her horse out in winter to punish it. That made you seem like you wanted to have a go at the OP more than you wanted to help her horse.
		
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That wasn't a dig! I read it as trying to illustrate just how inapproriate her horse management is.


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## Meowy Catkin (17 June 2012)

Horses look 'fatter' in photos than they do IRL. I really struggled to keep weight on one of my horses over the winter because she stopped eating her hard feeds. I tried different brands of feed to tempt her and all the while she had ad lib hay (the hay feeder was never empty). She was ribby, lost muscle and had hollows by her hips and yet in photos, she just looked a bit lean.


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## shep3 (17 June 2012)

He looks like a  plank to me.


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## You Wont Forget Me (17 June 2012)

Arabelle said:



			Well Eventa, you lost it for me when you couldn't resist adding a dig at the OP for allegedly leaving her horse out in winter to punish it. That made you seem like you wanted to have a go at the OP more than you wanted to help her horse.
		
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Just to clear things up at no point did i *EVER* leave my horse out in winter with no rugs and food!!!! And also he is not left everynight from 7 till 7 or 9 the next morning as most nights he isnt even in until 8 pm and is turned out at 6.30am!!

I have also taken on the advice given by many of you and the horse is now given a bigger haynet doubled up at night to last him longer and we are also working on his topline at the moment too, i will keep you updated on how we get on!


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## Holly Hocks (17 June 2012)

Eventa - thank you for coming on the forum and putting your side of the story across.  You sound like an extremely level-headed, experienced horsewoman who has tried to help.  Don't let this put you off trying to help other people in the future.  Most people would be extremely grateful for advice from someone like yourself.


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## Eventa (17 June 2012)

Yes you are quite correct the horse was not left out overnight. The horse was left in his stable and when normally rugged with at least two rugs he was left with no rug on and it was mid winter. He was denied his usual feed and all because he schooled badly.this is fact and was witnessed  This is sadly true. I am glad to see that now the horse has two hay nets however this could have been avoided if some well meaning guidance had been taken on board in the genuine way in which it was meant.


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## Meowy Catkin (17 June 2012)

I have also taken on the advice given by many of you and the horse is now given a bigger haynet doubled up at night to last him longer and we are also working on his topline at the moment too, i will keep you updated on how we get on!
		
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Fantastic.


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## Eventa (17 June 2012)

Dear holly hocks many thanks for your kind words. Indeed i only ever try to help people and in this case that was all i tried to do. I am not remotely interested in childish mud slinging behaviour, we are all horse lovers and i myself took on an ex race horse when he was 10 and incredibly just off the track! I had to learn quickly about feeding. Thank you for your understanding. Unfortunately not everyone likes to learn from each other which is unfortunate. Regards.


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## Mrs B (17 June 2012)

OK. 

Well to me, OP, if your horse is 6, is having the forage you say he needs (plus the extra Eventa has been giving him) and has the work load you describe, I'd say he looks pretty poor. Not skinny, just poor for what I would expect to see, especially for a nice looking lad with such a big frame.

He has no top line, no bum muscle and in the ridden pics, no real outline. I appreciate you are young but as for the photos where you're lying along his back, backwards and forwards, that doesn't say to me; 'Look how good her horse is/how good she is', it says to me 'She was bloody lucky when this pic was taken that nothing went wrong'. 

He's a young horse and you were taking a chance which could have badly backfired... If he'd been 15+ and a steady sort, I could have understood, but with a 6 year old, as his owner, I'd expect you to have acted more maturely to show you knew how to act around a youngster.

I know you keep saying "I've taken it on board", but only time will tell if you have, or whether you're saying on the forum to get people off your back...

We'll see.


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## Ibblebibble (17 June 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			Eventa - thank you for coming on the forum and putting your side of the story across.  You sound like an extremely level-headed, experienced horsewoman who has tried to help.  Don't let this put you off trying to help other people in the future.  Most people would be extremely grateful for advice from someone like yourself. 

Click to expand...

it usually depends on how the advice is given don't you think, Eventa gives the impression she thinks the OP is an ignorant teen, therefore i can imagine that came across when she was giving her advice. The 'i am older and more experienced therefore you must listen to me' type of advice is rarely well received




Eventa said:



Yes you are quite correct the horse was not left out overnight. The horse was left in his stable and when normally rugged with at least two rugs he was left with no rug on and it was mid winter. He was denied his usual feed and all because he schooled badly.this is fact and was witnessed  This is sadly true. I am glad to see that now the horse has two hay nets however this could have been avoided if some well meaning guidance had been taken on board in the genuine way in which it was meant.
		
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so what did you do about that? did you talk to the YO? have you spoken with the YO about any of your concerns regarding the OP and her horse. That would be correct procedure IMO, rather than taking it upon yourself to feed the horse without it's owners permission. At the end of the day it is not your place to try and educate the OP unless she asks for it, if you have concerns go to the YO, if they can't/won't help and you have genuine concerns about the horses well being phone the BHS and get them to send a welfare officer out!


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## Shysmum (17 June 2012)

^^^^ THIS !!!  

the most damned sense said so far imho.


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## rhino (17 June 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			it usually depends on how the advice is given don't you think, Eventa gives the impression she thinks the OP is an ignorant teen, therefore i can imagine that came across when she was giving her advice. The 'i am older and more experienced therefore you must listen to me' type of advice is rarely well received

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Except she spoke to OP's mum, not OP 

Agree with 2nd point though, but I feel bad for any YO's, threads like this convince me I'd _never_ want to own a DIY yard!


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## Miss L Toe (17 June 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			if they can't/won't help and you have genuine concerns about the horses well being phone the BHS and get them to send a welfare officer out!
		
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.....................and then you will be thrown off the yard


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## Holly Hocks (17 June 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			it usually depends on how the advice is given don't you think, Eventa gives the impression she thinks the OP is an ignorant teen, therefore i can imagine that came across when she was giving her advice. The 'i am older and more experienced therefore you must listen to me' type of advice is rarely well received

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Like the rest of us, we can only go off what we read on here and having read the OP's posts and Eventa's posts, I know who's camp I'm in thanks.


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## Ibblebibble (17 June 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			Like the rest of us, we can only go off what we read on here and having read the OP's posts and Eventa's posts, I know who's camp I'm in thanks.
		
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i don't feel the need to take any side,  The OP's feeding may not have been adequate for her horse and his level of work but Eventa had no right to feed the horse without it's owners knowledge or permission.


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## Eventa (17 June 2012)

Correct the advice was given to her mother and only because her mother has previously asked various advice. The yard manager was the one who correctly witnessed and then addressed the one  "no rug and no tea" behaviour. With regard to speaking to the yard owner, its the manager who addresses these issues. It was brought to her attention in a professional manner. How and if it was dealt with is then up to management. My posts are simply to put my side of this across which i have done. Not everyone Will agree with one course of action and we all have different opinions.many thanks for taking the time to read my input.


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## Chavhorse (17 June 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			it usually depends on how the advice is given don't you think, Eventa gives the impression she thinks the OP is an ignorant teen, therefore i can imagine that came across when she was giving her advice. The 'i am older and more experienced therefore you must listen to me' type of advice is rarely well received




so what did you do about that? did you talk to the YO? have you spoken with the YO about any of your concerns regarding the OP and her horse. That would be correct procedure IMO, rather than taking it upon yourself to feed the horse without it's owners permission. At the end of the day it is not your place to try and educate the OP unless she asks for it, if you have concerns go to the YO, if they can't/won't help and you have genuine concerns about the horses well being phone the BHS and get them to send a welfare officer out!
		
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^^^^^^^^^

100% This.

Any concerns about any horse on the yard that you do not own should be raised with the YO and they should then deal with it as YO they have the ultimate duty of care.

My YO would not be best pleased at random liveries giving "guidance" to others she would expect quite rightly that any concerns or worries were quietly(i.e. not gosspied or bitched about in the tea room first!)  brought up with her in the first instance so she could deal with it without World War III breaking out.


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## Dukey (17 June 2012)

Hi sorry I was trying to read this post through but it took too long (I got to page 12)! Anyway my boy has just turned 6, is like yours ridden 6 days a week (mixture of schooling, lessons, competitions, hacking, jumping). He is a TBxWelsh but built more like a heavyish TB at nearly 17hh. He has just been on the Spillers weigh bridge and given the condition score of 5 but when I brought him last year it was a 4. 
From what I can see in your pictures I think ur horse needs more muscle and looks very simliar to my boy last year. Now his bum is rounded, neck is shaped and looking more toned and muscley. I'm on my phone but will try a picture tomorrow! On the advice of Spillers I am feeding him a Lite chaff, carrots and a performance balencer. The balencer has a good level of protien for the muscle development. He's out from 9 til 4 on very rich grass. And has a large haynet at night with a small tub of hay with his breakfast at 6am (ish). This has ensured he has kept a good condition score, his coat is shining and looks FIT. If that makes sense?
Your boy, looks like he could do with a little extra to help the muscle development. But like others have said this goes hand in hand with the right level of work. As he does the same level of work as my lad I would advise looking at the balencers..? 
Hope that helps, the weigh bridges are great and come to your yard for free. It might be worth seeing if there's one in your area? 
As for someone else feeding my horse like you I would be mad, is it worth talking to her to see why, what how much?


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## Amymay (17 June 2012)

So van owners not talk to each other on your yard chavhorse??


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## Dukey (17 June 2012)

Sorry just read that she's on here! I wouldn't cause a huge issue maybe thank Eventa for her concern but get in a professional? I.e a vet or feeding specialist?

Sorry Eventa but maybe that would help the non-horsey mum understand?


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## Chavhorse (17 June 2012)

amymay said:



			So van owners not talk to each other on your yard chavhorse??
		
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If you mean owners of course we all talk to each other but if for instance I thought teens horse x was not being fed enough I would raise it with my YO who a) would in all probability have more knowledge of what was going on anyhow and b) I and she would consider it her job to have a quiet word which is probably better done in a "hey lets go through what X is doing work wise and what feed he is getting and see what advice we can find to get him looking a little less lean oh and whilst we are about it lets look at some excercises for his topline so he looks really fab"  My YO has the respect of all her liveries so she is listened to.

If we are refurring to the incident with the rig and the feed (which the OP denies so we have no idea as to its validity) I can think of not one of even the youngsters on the yard who would think for a minute this was acceptable and if anyone did the YO and Headgirl would have them rugging and feeding within 2 minutes and a stern word with mum about teenage tantrums and not the right way of doing things.


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## Queenofdiamonds (17 June 2012)

For those that are saying Eventa had no right to feed the horse - From her post i got the impression that this is standard procedure if the horse has ran out of hay for the first to notice to chuck some over, Unless the horse has special dietry requirements? So it wasn't really like she did it without permission? And any other horse would have been dealt with the same excluding those with special dietry requirements?


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## Firewell (17 June 2012)

I dont think he looks especially great. He's not seriously underweight at all but he does look like he is lacking in a bit of topline and condition. I would be wanting more on him if he was mine. However I do not think people should interfere if they weren't asked. Its not as if he is rescue case or anything.


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## Parker79 (17 June 2012)

This one is hard to judge...as we can only go by what way posts are written.

OP - can you clarify (if you want to) about the no feed/no rug thing. 

Eventa - It sounds like you are meaning well - but I do not understand why you are choosing to get involved...it should be the YO. It sounds like you are looking out for the horses welfare...but sometimes you just cannot get involved and you must inform the YO to deal with it...putting hay in another horses stable without permission is wrong. Either the YO should have done it or they should have insisted that the OP did.

BTW - No horse should be left for that long without hay or at least a bed to nibble on.....all haynets should be weighed unless offering adlib IMO


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## FionaM12 (17 June 2012)

Parker79 said:



			Eventa - It sounds like you are meaning well - but I do not understand why you are choosing to get involved...it should be the YO.
		
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Eventa got involved because the OP's Mum asked her for advice on several occasions. Also in another post Eventa said the Yard Manager had been involved.

To be fair, Eventa only appears to have come here as she saw her own actions being (in her opinion) untruthfully described. I can't say I blame her for wanting to step in and put the record straight!


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## Natch (17 June 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			i don't feel the need to take any side,  The OP's feeding may not have been adequate for her horse and his level of work but Eventa had no right to feed the horse without it's owners knowledge or permission.
		
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This.


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## FionaM12 (17 June 2012)

Naturally said:



			This.
		
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Queenofdiamonds said:



			For those that are saying Eventa had no right to feed the horse - From her post i got the impression that this is standard procedure if the horse has ran out of hay for the first to notice to chuck some over, Unless the horse has special dietry requirements?
		
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If this is yard policy, then it's not one person's interfering you'd want to question, it's that policy. I don't think I'd want people chucking hay over for Mollie unless I asked them to, but if that's what this yard does, it's not quite the same as one person sticking their oar in because they think your horse is thin.


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## Mike007 (17 June 2012)

Couldnt be bothered to read all these posts . looked at the pictures on page one. Whilst pictures can be deceptive, that horse looks thin to me.


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## Natch (17 June 2012)

True Fiona, but I read eventa's post as it being normal for people on livery yards she has been on in the past to chuck hay at other people's horses - with or without the owner's knowledge.

If the yard in question has a policy that no horse is left with no hay by whoever is at the yard last, then the OP doesn't have a leg to stand on as she should know the score. Still doesn't excuse anybody for feeding a horse without the owner's knowledge and permission (save for rescue circumstances, which this is not).


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## Parker79 (17 June 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			Eventa got involved because the OP's Mum asked her for advice on several occasions. Also in another post Eventa said the Yard Manager had been involved.

To be fair, Eventa only appears to have come here as she saw her own actions being (in her opinion) untruthfully described. I can't say I blame her for wanting to step in and put the record straight!
		
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I dont blame her at all for wanting to put her side across. I still think that if the YO is involved that should be the end of it....there should have been no hay fed to this horse unless the YO or livery did it.

I agree it is unacceptable for any horse to be left for long periods (although I realise the OP says this isn't the case). Giving additional hay without permission is not the best way to deal with this...as it doesn't help the OP and will only benefit the horse short term.

I am soooo glad I am no longer on a DIY yard....can be very difficult.

Anyway....OP is feeding more now so hopefully all is well


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## FionaM12 (17 June 2012)

Naturally said:



			True Fiona, but I read eventa's post as it being normal for people on livery yards she has been on in the past to chuck hay at other people's horses - with or without the owner's knowledge.
		
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Hmmm yes on closer inspection:




			he was left with no hay whatsoever after finishing his haynet by 1900 hrs every night. 

 purely in the best interests of the horse, he was given some haylage.

*This has always been standard practice in any yard I have been on *in the 28 years of horse ownership.
		
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.

It's not clear if it's standard practice on _this_ yard. However if someone gave Mollie hay because she'd finished hers by 7pm, I'd be a little annoyed they'd done so without asking, but I'd also increase her hay, and double up the haynet to make it last.


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## zoelouisem (18 June 2012)

Oh dear how things can get out of hand on here it's taken me ages to read this!!!
Horse is what id call underweight but not how I would keep it. But I think it's more the muscle tone than needing more fat as most have pointed out.
But as op did point out and nobody seems to have picked up on horse has been on 2 months box rest a little while back I would expect it to be lacking muscle and sometimes weight does drop off when work is being upped untill the fitness levels catch up.

As for the feeder she states horse has no hay from 7 and op states she's leaves around then. I'm actually leaning toward the op been more accurate as I have a daughter who I take up every evening to ride by the time we've travelled there caught in groomed tacked up ridden untracked brushed off stable sorted ect pony usually goes in 6.30 if I'm lucky but more 7. I wonder if feeder is slightly exaggerating on the times???

Op I do wonder if your feeding could be swapped around abit to suit your horse a bit better because I can't imagine feeding 2 high energy feeds you are are that great for the horse but I think that maybe chatting to your instructor on a feed/work/muscling plan might be a good idea they can then work with to do the correct exercises to help your horses top line. I know when I was a teenager I was slightly guilty of having my horses head 'pretty' but them not enagaging back and quarters correctly.  That was through lack of knowledge and not a dig at you as we all have to learn somewhere.
Anyway good luck he looks the type where your going to have loads of fun.


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## Box_Of_Frogs (18 June 2012)

As mike007 - haven't read all the posts but pics on page 1 I'd say show a thin horse, and that's with whatever extra the other person has been feeding him. I wouldn't want a horse of mine to stand for hours without something for his trickle-feed gut to work on. Great way to get ulcers and/or an unhappy horse. Why don't you leave a haynet outside his stable - either soaked hay or hay/oat straw mix. Then he won't be without food and others would be able to feel they were doing something to help. But this doesn't detract from the fact that I think he's thin.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (18 June 2012)

Being hnest if it was my oldie or my previous mare who had no hay left at that time of night I personally wouldn't have minded them getting extra with them not being the best of doers, especially in that amount of work.

Little S on the other hand she gets triple netted soaked Haynets when in as she's a VERY good doer so wouldn't want her getting any extra unless it was already pre soaked etc like her Haynets 

But if someone was telling me she was without all that time then I'd have to lo at when she came in off her good doer field so that she wasn't without for such a long time.

Horse does need weight both muscle and girth and hopefully this will now be sorted and hopefully both horse and owner will be happy


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## Eventa (18 June 2012)

Thank you Fiona m 12. You are right.


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## DragonSlayer (18 June 2012)

What a judgemental world we live in, always being right, never fully knowing what is going on before we leap in with accusations and 'I Am Always Right' statements, because we all class ourselves as experts....


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## M_G (18 June 2012)

monkeybum13 said:



			For those thank think it is acceptable for another livery to be giving him extra hay would you think it acceptable for someone to go in an overweight horses stable and remove some of their food?

If its not your horse don't feed it. If you think there is something wrong with the horses weight then talk to the owner, don't go feeding it without permission.
		
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Havent read the rest but totally agree with this 100%... If you have a problem with how someone is keeping their horse SPEAK to the owner


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## OldNag (18 June 2012)

I don't know what is the "norm" on yards in general, having only been on one.

Personally if my horse had run out of hay that early on I'd appreciate someone throwing some over, as I like mine to trickle feed (but I'd make sure mine had enough to last the night in any case so this shouldn't arise).  

However, If mine were on a restricted diet, I'd have a different view. But in this case the horse wasn't on a restricted diet (unless I've missed something).

As for the horse's condition - to me it does look a bit poor but I'm no expert.  There has been some sound advice on here and OP has said she is taking it on board, so that is good.

What I'm slightly bemused by is, how Eventa knew about this thread - I'm assuming she wasn't already a member until this thread had started?


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## Amymay (18 June 2012)

What I'm slightly bemused by is, how Eventa knew about this thread
		
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Horse world is awful small..............


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## Natch (18 June 2012)

amymay said:



			Horse world is awful small..............
		
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Scarily so. We have seen several examples of exactly this happening on HHO recently. Eventa could have been one of the 100s who read but don't join the forum, or as Amymay suggests, she could have been alerted to the thread by someone who knows them both. Hopefully the OP will be a little more careful about when and how they broadcast information on the internet.


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## Eventa (18 June 2012)

Hi yes i was alerted to this as i am by no means the only one who was concerned. I feel i have said all i want to on this matter and the whole thing could have been avoided in the first place. Thankfully the person appears to have taken on board the majority on here agreeing re his condition to hopefully that's the end of the matter. I am glad this was brought to my attention as this allowed me to post my reasoning.


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## FionaM12 (18 June 2012)

amymay said:



			Horse world is awful small..............
		
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Well, yes, but also in my experience teenagers don't do anything without telling all their mates. I bet the yard was buzzing with chat about this thread  which of course would reach Eventa.


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## The_snoopster (18 June 2012)

I wont get drawn into wether the OP,s horse in too thin, or wether eventa should or should not have fed the OP,s horse without her knowledge, but I have read the OP on several occasions state she has taken all the advice on board and on her last post has stated she is feeding more hay. Therefor I think maybe this thread as done some good, the OP has maybe had her eyes opened to a new feeding plan, and the feeder has now realized that not everyone would thank her for the exra hay wether it was needed or not


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## Eventa (18 June 2012)

Our local vet has a nurse who can come and condition score, offer advice on feeding and general care. Unfortunately not everyone is approachable to make suggestions to. In an ideal world we would all be able to speak to each other however some people are more sociable in that manner than others. I always ask for advice, others never ask anyone. I know op is aware of this free service but posted this instead of utilizing this service. Unfortunately most perceptions on the horses weight are based on opinion which is based on photographs. My suggestion would be the op asks the vet nurse to attend and assess the horse and formulate a management plan in the best interest of the horse. Hearing it direct from `the horses mouth` would i feel have been a way more effective way to tackle this issue. Its a shame it has become so blown out of proportion but hey ho that's life. The horse is now much happier and i am sure Will look better also very soon.


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## Eventa (18 June 2012)

Also Fionam12 yes it is standard and acceptable practice to give horses who have nothing left some hay on this yard. That is unless there are specific reasons not to for example if the owner has stipulated a specific diet. Yard staff have also given the horse in question hay as have other liveries when he had none left by 7pm and was going to be in until morning. To be honest the op could have simply asked that no hay be put into him and it would not have happened again!


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## HashRouge (18 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			Just to clear things up at no point did i *EVER* leave my horse out in winter with no rugs and food!!!! And also he is not left everynight from 7 till 7 or 9 the next morning as most nights he isnt even in until 8 pm and is turned out at 6.30am!!

I have also taken on the advice given by many of you and the horse is now given a bigger haynet doubled up at night to last him longer and we are also working on his topline at the moment too, i will keep you updated on how we get on!
		
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That is good to hear - the most important thing is ensuring he isn't standing for hours with nothing to eat. Double netting will hopefully help!


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## Queenofdiamonds (18 June 2012)

I don't thinkits judgemental to comment on something when someone has actuaally asked for opinions. 

I don't think the horse is skinny as such but from the information OP has given there were clearly issues which hopefully are now resolved.


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## YasandCrystal (18 June 2012)

Deleted now I have read some more of the thread. There are always 2 sides to a story and not everyone at a livery yard is out to get you!!! There can be a wealth of valuable free advice available too.


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## Nettle123 (18 June 2012)

There are always 2 sides to a story and not everyone at a livery yard is out to get you!!! There can be a wealth of valuable free advice available too.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely agree with this. I hate the idea of horses being in with no hay all night, even fatties can have well soaked hay for goodness sake. Not feeding/rugging due to not schooling well, Words fail me! , is the poor horse supposed to understand his "punishment" ?.


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## Wagtail (18 June 2012)

Completely agree with this. I hate the idea of horses being in with no hay all night, even fatties can have well soaked hay for goodness sake. Not feeding/rugging due to not schooling well, Words fail me! , is the poor horse supposed to understand his "punishment" ?.
		
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Perhaps she should have gone to bed without supper or bedclothes because she didn't ride him well?


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## Nettle123 (18 June 2012)

Like^^^^^


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## FionaM12 (18 June 2012)

Eventa said:



			Also Fionam12 yes it is standard and acceptable practice to give horses who have nothing left some hay on this yard.
		
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Out of interest, is the hay on your yard part of your livery deal (therefore not costing extra) or do you use the livery's own supply to top up? 

Also, changing the subject somewhat Eventa, I remember a while ago the same teenager having problems with her horse and one of her difficulties was your YO not allowing outside intsructors on the yard. That seems very harsh. Is there any reason for that please?




( Edited to say: apologies for my nosiness! Other peoples' yard systems and rules fascinate me!)


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## Chavhorse (18 June 2012)

Nettle123 said:



			Like^^^^^
		
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Wagtail said:



			Perhaps she should have gone to bed without supper or bedclothes because she didn't ride him well?
		
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Nettle123 said:



			There are always 2 sides to a story and not everyone at a livery yard is out to get you!!! There can be a wealth of valuable free advice available too.
		
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Absolutely agree with this. I hate the idea of horses being in with no hay all night, even fatties can have well soaked hay for goodness sake. Not feeding/rugging due to not schooling well, Words fail me! , is the poor horse supposed to understand his "punishment" ?.[/QUOTE]



You Wont Forget Me said:



			Just to clear things up at no point did i *EVER* leave my horse out in winter with no rugs and food!!!! And also he is not left everynight from 7 till 7 or 9 the next morning as most nights he isnt even in until 8 pm and is turned out at 6.30am!!

I have also taken on the advice given by many of you and the horse is now given a bigger haynet doubled up at night to last him longer and we are also working on his topline at the moment too, i will keep you updated on how we get on!
		
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Come on Ladies, the OP has totally denied the Leaving of her horse with no rugs or food as a punishment we only have this on hearsay from someone who says they are the  lady who has been feeding the horse on the yard (for all we know Eventa may be a 65 year old man in a top floor flat in Wigan!)...The OP appears to have listened to advice and is working on getting her horse muscled and giving him more food...shall we maybe cut her a break now rather than go down the "Demon Teen" route again?


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## AMH (18 June 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Perhaps she should have gone to bed without supper or bedclothes because she didn't ride him well?
		
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Please, was this necessary? 

Seems everyone's come out of this happy - would be interesting to see pics of the horse in a couple of months.

If it's 'standard practice' on most DIY yards for people to feed each other's horses, then I'm glad I'm not on one! No-one else's horse is my responsibilty, just like mine is no-one else's. If I thought a horse needed anything or was being deprived anything, I would raise it with the YO/YM and leave it at that, and if I found that anyone was giving my horse anything, or taking anything away, without my express consent I would be extremely unhappy. 

Do It Yourself - the clue's in the name...


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## meesha (18 June 2012)

Chavhorse - love it !! 65 year old man in flat in Wigan ! you are right I for one certainly forget that people posting may not only embelish their experiences but may not be who they seem at all !!!!!!


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## galaxy (18 June 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			( Edited to say: apologies for my nosiness! Other peoples' yard systems and rules fascinate me!)
		
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Not an uncommon rule actually.  Usually means the YO is an instructor and wants any lesson money themselves.  Sometimes yards have a compromise and then make an additional charge for use of the school for this lesson time with external instructor.

Personally I would never be at such a yard unless i had specifically moved there to be at my trainers yard.  I am an instructor and have met both the above scenarios at yards in my area.


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## Ibblebibble (18 June 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Perhaps she should have gone to bed without supper or bedclothes because she didn't ride him well?
		
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Not dabbling in a bit of teen baiting are we wagtail i didn't think you agreed with that kind of behaviour!





			Come on Ladies, the OP has totally denied the Leaving of her horse with no rugs or food as a punishment we only have this on hearsay from someone who says they are the  lady who has been feeding the horse on the yard (for all we know Eventa may be a 65 year old man in a top floor flat in Wigan!)...The OP appears to have listened to advice and is working on getting her horse muscled and giving him more food...shall we maybe cut her a break now rather than go down the "Demon Teen" route again?
		
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Well said


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## Gracie21 (18 June 2012)

Phew I'm exhausted after reading all of that! 

OP I hope he's doing well


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## FionaM12 (18 June 2012)

black_horse said:



			i remember being a teenager and i thought i knew everything...but at 25 i am still learning
		
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..and you will be at 55, 75.... or 95 for that matter!


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## FionaM12 (18 June 2012)

black_horse said:



			OK stop trying to age me , luckily, those ages are a lonnnnngggg way off 

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Lucky you.  I'm past the 1st, but a way to go to the second.


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## You Wont Forget Me (18 June 2012)

Okay...
Firstly, no feed no rug situation!!(one word - facts ) This happened 2years ago when i had not long moved to this paticular yard, we had had a very bad week and on this paticular day he reared up several times and caught me on the way down, i was so annoyed and in the moment threw him back into his stabe (straw bed at this time) without his lw or mw rug i cant quite remember which it was and he already had a small pile of haylege in his stable, he was simply not given more or given his hard feed! It was also not in mid winter it was right at the start! Little does Eventa know, we returned to the yard later that evening and gave him his usual amount of haylege... now im not saying this was right i know it was a very bad move but learnt from it and would never do it again no matter how bad the situation was, but to claim i left my horse in mid winter with no food or rugs is simply out of order!!


And as far as getting professionals in to get an opinion, we have had vets, neutritionists (sp) and several v experianced horse owners opinions on his weight in the past and none wanted to see any more weight on him, yes he has much more muscle to build and we are working on it.

As for those saying about me being a typical teen ect i know i dont know everything no one does and i always take on advice, yes i will maybe speak to others about it first but never will i ignore someones advice completetly.

Lastly Mrs B.... do you know this horse.... yes he is 6, i have owned him since he was broken i know him inside out, he actually is as laid back as a 30 year old horse and the photo's you are talking about were also taken after an hour jumping session so i knew he was in a fine mood to just stand there and trusted him to do so.


i think thats all that was left for me to clear up


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## Meowy Catkin (18 June 2012)

now im not saying this was right i know it was a very bad move but learnt from it and would never do it again no matter how bad the situation was,
		
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I look back in horror at my own idiocy from when I was young sometimes.


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## Moggy in Manolos (18 June 2012)

Faracat said:



			I look back in horror at my own idiocy from when I was young sometimes.
		
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Yes, same here...


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## Ibblebibble (18 June 2012)

Faracat said:



			I look back in horror at my own idiocy from when I was young sometimes.
		
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as i imagine we all do but i'll bet very few of us would have admitted it at the time
Well done OP on remaining calm and polite throughout all this, we don't all get it right all of the time, but as long as we can accept this and make moves to correct our mistakes then we're on the right path


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## Queenofdiamonds (18 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			And as far as getting professionals in to get an opinion, we have had vets, neutritionists (sp) and several v experianced horse owners opinions on his weight in the past and none wanted to see any more weight on him, yes he has much more muscle to build and we are working on it.
		
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I think most peoples point was that he won't get this muscle on what you were feeding him. 

My 4 year sports horse old has one haynet a night plus the same ammount on the floor (He trashes the net if he has none on the floor, He likes to switch between the two) and never finishes all of that. He is out most days for 6 - 8 hours. 

Muscle wise, Your horse looks to be on the same level as mine. Mine is 4 and unbroken - He has not done any work until last week. You cannot possibly argue that your horse is receiving enough when he is doing 6 days work and is in the same condition as a horse 2 years younger that has never been worked properly. I would question any professional who would argue this.

You seem to be taking the attitude that everyone is against you. Not the case. We were all young once, And sometimes hearing the cold hard truth is what you need. Plus, You did ask opinions. You can't do that expecting everybody to agree with you.


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## You Wont Forget Me (18 June 2012)

Queenofdiamonds said:



			I think most peoples point was that he won't get this muscle on what you were feeding him. 

My 4 year sports horse old has one haynet a night plus the same ammount on the floor (He trashes the net if he has none on the floor, He likes to switch between the two) and never finishes all of that. He is out most days for 6 - 8 hours. 

Muscle wise, Your horse looks to be on the same level as mine. Mine is 4 and unbroken - He has not done any work until last week. You cannot possibly argue that your horse is receiving enough when he is doing 6 days work and is in the same condition as a horse 2 years younger that has never been worked properly. I would question any professional who would argue this.

You seem to be taking the attitude that everyone is against you. Not the case. We were all young once, And sometimes hearing the cold hard truth is what you need. Plus, You did ask opinions. You can't do that expecting everybody to agree with you.
		
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i am aware of this and this is why his forage has now been increased! I am certainly not taking that attitude i know that is not the case i am simply stating my point to the small minority who are being just a 'little' rude on the matter, i know i asked opinions and i have taken them all on board. As for the muscle situation we are working on it with him as i have also said previously


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## zoelouisem (18 June 2012)

I also think in the ops defence she asked if the horse was underweight which I wouldn't say he was yes under muscled but she did say she knew that. And as I said in previous post and op pointed out the horse had 2 months box rest earlier on in the year I wouldn't expect loads of muscle on a horse that has box rest!
As she's pointed out how can she feed him the correct amount when others are feeding and she can't monitor his food. 
Silly thing is if this horse was overweight everybody would be saying its so unhealthy I'd prefer the horse to be a bit lean than a bit fat, you can never win!!!


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## Dukey (18 June 2012)

Sorry its not just his forage but his protien level. Yes, he needs to be kept grazing and shouldn't be without food for long periods. However, he will struggle to develop muscle without a good balencer. Think of him like a teenage boy all lanky and needing that extra to muscle up, grow and develop (and just think about how much they eat!). At the same time feed recommended amount and he shouldn't with his level of work turn into a chucky monkey! As I said before my boy struggled to muscle up and this has really helped and was on the advice of Spillers feeding specialist. Please look into the weigh bridges, they give great unbias advice...


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## Natch (18 June 2012)

Faracat said:



			I look back in horror at my own idiocy from when I was young sometimes.
		
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I think many of us have been there - I have -  the important thing is to learn from your mistakes.


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## FionaM12 (18 June 2012)

Dukey said:



			like a teenage boy all lanky and needing that extra to muscle up, grow and develop (and just think about how much they eat!).
		
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Surely at six he's not really a teenager, is he? He might fill out a bit, but he won't be growing will he?


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## lurcherlu (18 June 2012)

No he's not seriously under weight. My explanation for feeding him would be his work load is making him expend more calories (energy) than he is taking in, the small amount of protein he is getting is being used as energy adn not for making muscle etc, yes he has been on box rest but to build his muscle he needs material for building it with, this material can only come from his food, i would be giving him around 8 - 10 kg of hay a night (if he was out all night he would be unrestricted ) and a good quality hard feed, my 3 year old is on a level grow mix (yes designed for young horses but also good for horses coming back from injury and the saracen level grow is non heating and designed for good doers. She has 500g of this (half a round scoop) 2 times a day and a round scoop of alfa a oil 2 times a day. He looks lovely btw and i have just moved from a yard where they were feeding my 2 year old and threatened to phone rspca, in end i called a vet out as i was now convinced these dairy farmers were right - vet said she looks perfect a rising 2 year old coming out of winter should look ribby, she was just covered with 3 or 4 on display in march come may shes shiny and lovely again, so i know how it feels to be scrutinised  take care- enjoy your horse and cut the hands off the next person to feed him without your permission
my 3 year old for refernce


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## You Wont Forget Me (18 June 2012)

Hi Dukey, yes I am looking into his hard feed and am aware of his protein levels, will speak around and see what's going to be best for him, thanks


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## Eventa (18 June 2012)

Lol yes you are all right i am an old man and don't have horses or even know these people i just thought i would join in! Lmao. Anyway i have had my say and to be honest think this has come to a natural end! Please! Lol


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## Queenofdiamonds (18 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			i am aware of this and this is why his forage has now been increased! I am certainly not taking that attitude i know that is not the case i am simply stating my point to the small minority who are being just a 'little' rude on the matter, i know i asked opinions and i have taken them all on board. As for the muscle situation we are working on it with him as i have also said previously
		
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I said you *seem* to be. Even in this comment, You seem to be taking the defense, I am not digging at you. We all need advice from time to time. For heavens sake some of the most experienced horse owners i know will ask a second opinion from time to time even if it's just 'Do you think it'll be ok to turn out today?'.

I am glad you've taken them on board. I'm sorry if you feel i am being rude, I was just a little surprised at his muscle given how much work he does is all. I don't intend to insult anybody.


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## FionaM12 (18 June 2012)

Eventa said:



			Lol yes you are all right i am an old man
		
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From (for some reason) Wigan! 




And 65 isn't _that_ old......


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## Natch (18 June 2012)

You Wont Forget Me said:



			i am aware of this and this is why his forage has now been increased! I am certainly not taking that attitude i know that is not the case i am simply stating my point to the small minority who are being just a 'little' rude on the matter, i know i asked opinions and i have taken them all on board. As for the muscle situation we are working on it with him as i have also said previously
		
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I think really the best feeding advice can come from the nutritionalists at the feed companies, although obviously they will want to promote their own products. You can ring several advice lines and take an average from them all if you like 

It might also help to arm yourself with a luggage weigher (I'm sure thats not the proper name...  ) - the kind you can hold up, hang your haynet from and it tells you how many lbs or kg of forage you have in it. They only cost a few quid and can really help you to determine if what you are giving is sufficient for your horse's dietary needs - work to about 2-2.5% of his body weight. Then obviously if he is finishing it all before you get there in the morning you can do things to slow down his intake like double haynetting. As someone else said a good dietary balancer would be an excellent addition to his hay ration, if you feed something like Baileys' balancer it has protein, vits and mins and is in pellet form, so you don't need to add anything else to it. Be carefulk with some balancers as some do not contain protein.


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## Dukey (18 June 2012)

FionaM I brought my TBx Welsh last year and he was 16.2 now is just under 17hh... Depends on the horse.... My Irishx was 15.2 when I brought him at 5 and finished up at 16.1. The TBxWelsh had no topline and was very weak across his back. The extra protien really helped along with a simliar work load to the OP's horse. 
I'm glad your considering it... I'll try to get some pics up when I can be bothered to turn my laptop on!


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## moodymare_1993 (19 June 2012)

if im totaly honest, as you asked for opinions....he is defo not underweight, however i do think he need that little extra layer on him, i know you say he is a baby, but hes not.....hes a horse and i can undertsand that young horses still need room to grow, but he does look a tad, just a tad, out of condition, i know your working on the muscle, but the muscle wont appear if he has nothing to turn into muscle. like i said, not underweight, just lacking in a layer of weight


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## Queenbee (19 June 2012)

You asked for opinions op and it's really great to see that you've taken advice and upped the forage, that will pay dividends,  with regards to a good balancer baileys low cal is fantastic stuff and will give him everything he needs or you can go with baileys outshine again a great balancer, and high in oil too (my personal favourite) neither are cheap by the sack, but you only feed a cup full a day so it lasts forever. 

With regards to the whole rug and feed issue, horses piss us off sometimes  I remember Ben was soooo good as a youngster with having his rug on, then this winter he tried to kick me when I did his leg straps... He kept threatening so I whipped the rug off and chucked him in his field... Mid February  he had a field shelter and a good coat on him but after that day he has been a saint to rug ever since  

I'm sure you will get there in the end, I've recently had cause to speak to lots of feed companies as was given the name of a fantastic nutritionalist who works for a number of the big companies, you will need to carefully plan the type of intake for your boy to get that development of good top line and balance it with your horses needs without going overboard as you know, whilst there is a wealth of very good advice being given to you on here it is always reassuring to talk to someone who does this for a living, the nutritionalist that I was referred to, doesn't push any one brand, she will tailor the best feed regime to suit the needs of you and your horse, if you want a name and contact pm me and I can give it to you. Good luck


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## Miss L Toe (19 June 2012)

As has been stated several times over, the horse needs minerals and vitamins every day, therefore take one bag of quality horse feed,  read the label, then feed accordingly, do not dilute with another feed like oats unless you add a mineral and vitamin supplement. Feed more forage. Feed some salt.
PS you were going to ask vet for his opinion, have you done so?


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## Goldenstar (19 June 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			As has been stated several times over, the horse needs minerals and vitamins every day, therefore take one bag of quality horse feed,  read the label, then feed accordingly, do not dilute with another feed like oats unless you add a mineral and vitamin supplement. Feed more forage. Feed some salt.
PS you were going to ask vet for his opinion, have you done so?
		
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Or don't feed mixes at all that of the main reasons why I stopped non of my horses ever needed the amounts of mix that gave them their daily allowance.
So I now feed oats and micronised linseed mixed with Alfafa or hi fi lite and add supplements as needed much easier to know exactly where you with supplementation this way.


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## Arabelle (19 June 2012)

The poor old OP is getting bombarded with lots of different feed ideas - what is the point when she has said (quite a few times) she will be speaking to her vet and nutritionist?

I am amazed at how polite the OP has remained, given the tone of some of the posts on here and the fact that someone has opening posted admitting to _feeding her horse without her permission_.  I would be spitting nails.

The horse is not exactly a charity case, so there was never any call for a busybody on the yard to do more than speak to the YO if they had a concern and then wind their neck in.


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## DragonSlayer (19 June 2012)

Arabelle said:



			The poor old OP is getting bombarded with lots of different feed ideas - what is the point when she has said (quite a few times) she will be speaking to her vet and nutritionist?

I am amazed at how polite the OP has remained, given the tone of some of the posts on here and the fact that someone has opening posted admitting to _feeding her horse without her permission_.  I would be spitting nails.

The horse is not exactly a charity case, so there was never any call for a busybody on the yard to do more than speak to the YO if they had a concern and then wind their neck in.
		
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^^^^This!!!!!!!!^^^^


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## Goldenstar (19 June 2012)

Arabelle said:



			The poor old OP is getting bombarded with lots of different feed ideas - what is the point when she has said (quite a few times) she will be speaking to her vet and nutritionist?

I am amazed at how polite the OP has remained, given the tone of some of the posts on here and the fact that someone has opening posted admitting to _feeding her horse without her permission_.  I would be spitting nails.

The horse is not exactly a charity case, so there was never any call for a busybody on the yard to do more than speak to the YO if they had a concern and then wind their neck in.
		
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Me too the horse is in no way a charity case ( and I know about this ) this whole thead is amazing . A little lean does not harm a horse at all a little fat perhaps not too but it's agood job I have not posted pictures of the cob I am doing HDT with at the moment although he is more heavily muscled ( hes older )he looks leaner than OP's horse.
I would hesitate to give Op any advice as I am sure she is sick of it but if I did it would be to pick an experianced person on the yard that you like and respect and take advice from them and learn from them please dont find that patronising I am in my fifties and still learn from watching people I respect .


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## M_G (19 June 2012)

Faracat said:



			I look back in horror at my own idiocy from when I was young sometimes.
		
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Goo god yes. I look back in horror at some of the advice I have followed in the past *hangs head* thankfully we live and learn


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## hairycob (19 June 2012)

Op I suspect that the main lesson to be learned is to be careful how you phrase your initial post.
If you had simply said "someone on the yard had suggested my horse is underweight, I'm not sure, what do you think." you wouldn't have got 1/10 of the grief you have. 
Take advice from an older lady who has c*cked up many a time - in future if you feel a rant coming on, try writing it down & leaving a couple of hours before you post, giving yourself time to think about how things might pan out badly. By having a go at Eventa it got back to her, she defended herself & it spiralled out of control. Never think that because someone doesn't post on here they won't know. I know of 20 people who lurk for every poster I know & all of them have other friends they talk to.


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## Daytona (19 June 2012)

Never read whole thread as too many pages, don't think the horse looks "seriously underweight"

But have to add that it is a major pet hate of mine to come  up to yard to see horses with not a scrap to eat as owners left them 1 Hay net or a tiny pile , it a sure way to end up with stable vices brought on by boredom or stress as there stomach will be uncomfortable with no food for say 10 odd hours.

Even if your horse is over weight for instance there are ways to make sure it's rations last longer.

I would not feed the said horse but I would think its owner is completely clueless and feel Extreamly sorry for the poor animal.  

1 Haynet for the horse in question judging by photos is not enough, it should not be stood all night with no food.  So really I understand why the lady is giving it food but she should of spoke to YO to highlight the fact the horse is locked in a stable most likely stressed and hungry.  Then YO could have a word.


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## benson21 (19 June 2012)

If someone was giving donovan more hay without my permission, I would be fuming! I take advice from my yard manager, and yard owner. Donovan is on a Do it yourself yard, which means I do it MYSELF!
Makes me wonder how some would react if I felt their child was underweight and I handed them something to eat, without pernmission from their parents!


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## Chavhorse (19 June 2012)

DragonSlayer said:



			^^^^This!!!!!!!!^^^^
		
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Arabelle said:



			The poor old OP is getting bombarded with lots of different feed ideas - what is the point when she has said (quite a few times) she will be speaking to her vet and nutritionist?

I am amazed at how polite the OP has remained, given the tone of some of the posts on here and the fact that someone has opening posted admitting to _feeding her horse without her permission_.  I would be spitting nails.

The horse is not exactly a charity case, so there was never any call for a busybody on the yard to do more than speak to the YO if they had a concern and then wind their neck in.
		
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^^^^^^
This

A gentle word of concern with the YO would have saved this whole thread.

Hopefully the atmosphere on the yard in question is not too fraught!

Makes me very grateful that my YO's attitude is "if it is not yours don't interfere with it that is what I am paid to do".


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## scarymare (19 June 2012)

Haven't had time to read this as marking A level scripts atm.

OP, your horse is not seriously underweight BUT.... this year because of the very cold (after a spike) spring and summer and low light levels there is not nearly as much nutrition in the grass as usual.  Yours looks like my 2 year old and although I'm not feeding her she is out 24/7 on the best I've got and I may lose my nerve if this continues.  In which case it will be haylage not straights.

Very fine balancing act.  My yearling goes ribs/no ribs on a daily basis as growing spurts so that makes it even harder.  You obviously love your ponio so good luck


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## partypremier (19 June 2012)

Having been caught out once ever (last year) with laminitis after having horses 30+ years, I have changed my view a great deal about what a horses weight should be.  A friend of mine worked a long time at the main horse rescue organisation & she told me all my horses were too fat & that you should be able to feel & in the case of fit horses see their ribs.  I now keep my horses leaner (would not win prizes in an overweight hunter class) but i would rather that than have any of mine with laminitis.  Having done a lot of showing in hand & ridden, I have known of some of the big names having laminitic (potential show horses) at the age of 2 & 3 yr old.  If in doubt next time you have a vet on the yard get their opinion on your horse & it is a good idea to have a measuring tape to keep the balance right.


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## OFG (19 June 2012)

amymay said:



			This is an interesting post, in many ways - because I'm always banging on about duty of care on livery yards, by the YO, and by fellow liveries.

So if the lady giving the extra hay was genuinely concerned about your horse then whilst her actions may have upset you, she hasn't really done anything wrong - other than top up a hay ration that has been used up.

We had a very good system some years ago, whereby four of us had a system of last person to leave put the hay in.  This meant that those on smaller rations because of diets didn't stand for too long overnight when their ration was eaten.
		
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Sorry amymay, have only just gone back to this tread. What if this horse was on a special diet? Is it still ok for another livery (even if well meaning in their opinion) gives someone elses horse extra hay / feed etc with out the owner knowing? 

I stand by my original opinion, yes, this livery was in the wrong by feeding someone else's horse without their consent (and potentially without indepth knowledge of said horses diet / health etc). We may have to agree to disagree on this one 

(sorry also as I haven't read the rest of the thread as its so many pages and I expect things have gotten debated to death).


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## sarahann1 (19 June 2012)

M_G said:



			Goo god yes. I look back in horror at some of the advice I have followed in the past *hangs head* thankfully we live and learn
		
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Same here, I used to believe it was ok to worm once a year.....no really, hangs head even lower in shame...

OP I think your horse looks ok from the pics you've posted, good luck with getting it all sorted out


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## FionaM12 (19 June 2012)

OFG said:



			Sorry amymay, have only just gone back to this tread. What if this horse was on a special diet? Is it still ok for another livery (even if well meaning in their opinion) gives someone elses horse extra hay / feed etc with out the owner knowing? 

I stand by my original opinion, yes, this livery was in the wrong by feeding someone else's horse without their consent (and potentially without indepth knowledge of said horses diet / health etc). We may have to agree to disagree on this one 

(sorry also as I haven't read the rest of the thread as its so many pages and I expect things have gotten debated to death).
		
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The person who gave the hay (Eventa) did come on to say it's yard policy to give extra to any horse who has run out if you're last on the yard, unless they have special dietary requirements. Also Eventa had been asked for advice by the OP's mum and seemed pretty aware of this horse's needs.

Hopefully the outcome is okay though, as OP seems to have taken on board comments about her horse needing more forage to help build up his muscles along with exerise. I also hope the two parties can get together and draw a line under this disagreement, or there could be a bit of an atmosphere on the yard!


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## Ranyhyn (19 June 2012)

this makes me so, so glad I'm not at livery.


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## marlyclay (19 June 2012)

Good grief,is this still dragging on! Time to put it to bed now surely.


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## Holly Hocks (19 June 2012)

benson21 said:



			Donovan is on a Do it yourself yard, which means I do it MYSELF!
		
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So if this same horse had been colicking or similar would you have expected Eventa to ignore that as well?  Colicking because it had been left with no feed for over 12 hours?  Because if she had, she would no doubt have been criticised for that as well.


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## Eventa (19 June 2012)

Good lord is this still going on! Incredible! I only joined this to tell you all the truth lol!


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## DragonSlayer (19 June 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			So if this same horse had been colicking or similar would you have expected Eventa to ignore that as well?  Colicking because it had been left with no feed for over 12 hours?  Because if she had, she would no doubt have been criticised for that as well.
		
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Flip, posted then lost it...


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## DragonSlayer (19 June 2012)

What I was going to say is....your damned if you do and your damned if you don't....!


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## FionaM12 (19 June 2012)

Eventa said:



			Good lord is this still going on! Incredible! I only joined this to tell you all the truth lol!
		
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Welcome to the world of HHO Eventa!  Things can run on a bit here.....


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## Mrs B (19 June 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			Welcome to the world of HHO Eventa!  Things can run on a bit here.....
		
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And on and on and on and on....

Try a search for a thread about cobs...


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## paisley (19 June 2012)

Mrs B said:



			And on and on and on and on....

Try a search for a thread about cobs...

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Certainly can't give them much hay- great chubby things 

(settle down cob lovers, its not meant to be serious!)


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## Show in style (18 August 2012)

Now this is interesting! (sorry for bringing it back up) But im sure i have seen this horse out at 2 local shows lately one 2 months ago(ish) West fife show? Also at pittenweem last week, was that you OP?
Yes your horse did seem to be lacking muscle but by no means was he seriously under weight when i saw him at west fife but seeing him again last week i saw a huge difference, whatever your doing now is certainly making a difference from what i've seen so keep up the good work. Perhaps you should give us all an update on your boy.


Ps if it was you well done pittenweem show, you did very well.


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## FourBurrowHunt (18 August 2012)

Dont worry he's fine,i ride mine in lessons for 1hr he gets half a haynet and no feed and he's out 19hrs a day and he's very fat, as you can see his ribs add some more chaff or what ever bulking feed u give him x


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