# Horse Abattoir Film Reveals Welfare Breaches



## ridingsafely (19 January 2013)

From Sky News:

http://news.sky.com/story/1040057/horse-abattoir-film-reveals-welfare-breaches

WARNING: The video shows images of horses being mistreated.


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## ridingsafely (19 January 2013)

Press Release from World Horse Welfare:

WORLD HORSE WELFARE OUTRAGED BY ILLEGAL WELFARE ABUSES AT 
MAJOR LICENSED SLAUGHTERHOUSE

 Call for operations to cease at plant until new procedures put in place with FSA guarantee of compliance with law
 Call for CCTV in all slaughterhouses that take horses to help FSA enforce law 
 Inhumane slaughter has no place in Britain	

Disgusting, appalling and totally illegal is how Roly Owers, chief executive of World Horse Welfare, describes the treatment of horses at one of Britains main equine slaughterhouses as was revealed in footage obtained by a Sky News investigation aired today.  

What we have seen is a complete, systemic failure of the slaughterhouse to comply with UK welfare laws, and of the Food Standards Agency which should have been enforcing the law - but clearly has not.

We are now calling for all operations at these premises to be suspended until new procedures are put in place and the FSA guarantees the plant will comply with the law.   We are also calling for Defra to install and monitor CCTV in all English slaughterhouses to aid enforcement, said Owers.

The public and horse owners need to have confidence that slaughter is carried out humanely in Britain. While it may be a sad fact, there is a role for humane slaughter of horses to help prevent them from suffering long and painful deaths due to illness or neglect.

The revelations come as Defra is finalising the arrangements to introduce new EU regulations to protect the welfare of animals at slaughter which will come into effect this summer.  

The footage revealed a multitude of illegal practices resulting in unnecessary suffering for the dozens of horses shown in the film. We saw horses being treated appallingly every step of the way  from a poor level of care before slaughter, to slaughter in groups of two or three which is illegal and extremely distressing to such social and intelligent animals, to botched or incomplete stunning that appeared to allow some horses to regain consciousness before they were killed. 

These practices are disgusting, appalling and totally illegal and they must be stopped immediately, said Owers.  Any chief government veterinarian would agree. There must be a full investigation, and operations at this plant must cease until new procedures are put in place and the FSA guarantees full compliance with the law. 

Just some of the many breaches of the Welfare of Animals (Slaughter or Killing) Regulations of 1995 evident in the footage included:

 Shooting in groups of two or three - the law requires that animals are pithed or bled without delay after stunning. 

 This requirement cannot be met when animals are stunned in groups.  Bleeding horses one at a time after being stunned in a group causes totally unnecessary delay for some of the animals in the group. Some horses in the footage appear to be regaining consciousness before being bled. In some cases the footage showed that the first horse to be stunned was the last to be bled, increasing the likelihood that the horse would regain consciousness before they were killed.

 Horses were permitted to be within sight of another horse being stunned or killed  this is specifically prohibited by the regulations as witnessing such an event can cause significant distress to horses- as is evident in the footage. Even when shot singly, horses should not be shot in the sight of other horses, but in the footage another horse or horses are often present and can even see inside the stun box. 

 Animals were not pithed or bled without delay after stunning; in some cases the delay was considerable  the Regulation clearly states that horses should be pithed* or bled without delay to prevent them gaining consciousness. 

In all of the footage viewed, World Horse Welfare did not see any animals being pithed and therefore they should have been bled without delay  but in many instances this did not happen. In many cases the delays in bleeding the animal were lengthy and completely unacceptable.

 Animals were not restrained in an appropriate manner prior to stunning/killing so as to spare them any avoidable pain, suffering or agitation  World Horse Welfare saw many botched stuns in the footage.  It appears that three different types of equipment were being used to stun or shoot the animals and in a number of cases the stun was not effective and had to be repeated. In addition the slaughter men had difficulty in raising the head of the animals in order to apply the guns. 

 Animals were not moved with care; blows were inflicted on some animals with staves or ropes  this abuse of horses is clearly not allowed under law. Nor is it necessary. 

 In lairage (where horses are held before slaughter) the conditions were sub-standard and injured or sick horses were not isolated or cared for as required by law  in the footage one horse was evidently very seriously lame and another apparently suffered from the painful condition of colic; both of the horses should have been isolated and given care - or been humanely put out of their misery at the earliest opportunity.  

As an exception to this catalogue of breaches, World Horse Welfare did witness at least one slaughter man who demonstrated competence in both handling and killing.

World Horse Welfare believes that the footage showed evidence of catastrophic breaches of the law and that a full investigation is required. The charity strongly believes that operations at the plant should be immediately suspended until new procedures are put in place and the FSA guarantees the plant will comply with the law.  The charity is calling for the introduction and monitoring of CCTV at all slaughterhouses licensed to take horses in order to assist the FSA in their duty of enforcement. 

I cannot see the public trusting this establishment again until we have CCTV monitoring in place. The FSA has staff on the premises who should have been enforcing the laws that protect these horses, but their efforts have been found seriously wanting, said Owers.

However, World Horse Welfare urges the public and horse owners not to panic.  There is no evidence to suggest that other slaughterhouses in the UK are abusing the law in this way.  We believe there is a role for humane slaughter.  We have identified 6,000 horses at risk in the country and humane slaughter may eventually be the kindest option for them to save them from a lifetime of neglect and suffering.  Homes for horses are in short supply, said Owers.

We do not want to see horses exported overseas to slaughter where welfare standards may be even lower  that would be an even worse tragedy. The charity has significant evidence of the suffering experienced by horses transported long distances across Europe to slaughter and is campaigning for a short, maximum journey limit in line with scientific evidence that shows that horses suffer on longer journeys. 

Defra had indicated in its recent consultation on the slaughter regulations that they were not minded to require compulsory CCTV in slaughterhouses at this time but the issue would be kept under review.

We said in our response to the Defra consultation that we are not convinced that the case against compulsory CCTV has been made and it should be revisited as soon as more evidence on the value of CCTV became available. We now have that evidence, said Owers. If the FSA cannot fulfil its duty to enforce the law solely through its staff on the ground, CCTV would not only support them to fulfil their duties but would also provide vital reassurance to the public that horses are being handled and slaughtered humanely.
World Horse Welfare is putting forward the following arguments in favour of CCTV in a formal response to Defra, and is preparing a petition that concerned members of the public can sign through its website http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org.

CCTV cameras:

 Can be installed into spaces where an inspector cannot safely be present  such as in the stun box
 Will always be present, unlike inspectors
 Cannot be intimidated, unlike an inspector 
 Produce a permanent record, allowing both good and bad practice to be identified and used in training for slaughterhouse employees.
 Will help counter any malicious accusations against the proprietors or employees of licenced premises and permit proprietors to demonstrate that they treat horses humanely
 Can be viewed securely from any location, offering more flexibility for the FSA and could even save money if they replace some on-site monitors
 Will help improve public confidence that animals will be slaughtered humanely 
 Will allow the British public to feel confident that British meat, which has a reputation as a high welfare product, is the result of humane slaughter procedures
 Suitable CCTV systems can be purchased for less than £500, so the costs to business are not unreasonable

Further Information:

 The Welfare of Animals (Slaughter or Killing) Regulations of 1995 should have been followed.  Schedules 5 and 6 are the most relevant to this story. 

 *Pithing: the destruction of brain tissue after stunning to the extent that irreversible loss of consciousness is ensured. 

 Definition of humane slaughter according to World Horse Welfare: Humane slaughter means slaughter carried out without causing suffering or distress to the horse  for instance, slaughter may not be carried out within sight of other horses. Only methods which have been deemed suitable for horses (shooting with a free bullet, or stunning with a penetrative captive bolt instrument followed by immediate pithing or bleeding) should be used and best practice guidelines should be followed.


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## pizzi (19 January 2013)

I have no problems with humane slaughter, as unfortunately in these times, for some horses it is better than the aalternative. However, this is appalling!


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## cronkmooar (19 January 2013)

OK I going to admit it - I don't have the stomach to watch anything like this - cheers for the warning OP much appreciated.

But the brave soles that have, could you tell me is this in the UK?  If so, which one is it

Please don't tell me what happens


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## ILuvCowparsely (19 January 2013)

its in cheshire . 


 not nice


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## Dry Rot (19 January 2013)

I didn't view the video but did read the article. The cruelty involved is despicable but also incredibly stupid. There is a horse population problem here in the UK and humane slaughter is a necessary but unpleasant solution. 

Unfortunately, those employed by abattoirs are not always the most intelligent members of society. Working in a slaughterhouse is not a "nice" job and those employed to do it often have a past.

I'd tend to blame the managers and inspectors for this breach. I thought a vet always had to be present? What went wrong with the controls? I trust there will be a very thorough investigation and those responsible, at all levels, will be punished appropriately.


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## Zuzan (19 January 2013)

WHW have a petition going http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/information/latest-news?view=show&content_id=5403


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## HBM1 (19 January 2013)

I can't watch the video, I saw one still on the front of the daily mail and that was enough for me.  I don't care who anyone is or what their situation, everyone should take responsibility for their own horse if they reach the end of their lives.  Horses give us tremendous pleasure and to think that any of mine could end up in a situation like this is something I just could not live with.  The very least owners can do for their horses is to have them put to sleep at home.  No horse, indeed no animal, deserves to go through what these poor things have!


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## mightymammoth (19 January 2013)

Zuzan said:



			WHW have a petition going http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/information/latest-news?view=show&content_id=5403

Click to expand...

signed


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## Alec Swan (19 January 2013)

ridingsafely,

an excellent and informative post of yours.  It's only a shame that there are currently 3 or 4 other and parallel threads.  The discussion is being fragmented,  which is a pity.

I'm running out of steam,  so "No more",  but tomorrow I may make contact with WHW,  and see if there's a way to gather all those with a view,  under one umbrella.

Having now watched the video,  in a curious way,  I have some sympathy with Turners,  and their staff.  It was wrong,  terribly wrong,  but the work environment and the whole set up,  were wrong,  and without enough "trade" to allow for progress and reinvestment,  the appalling practices witnessed are rather inevitable.  Before we blame Potters and Turners for their existence,  we should look to our selves.

To emphasise my claim in the last paragraph,  the comment about "Trade";  I wonder how many are aware that at one time,  abattoir blood had a high sale value,  it being one of the finest grass fertilisers available.  In our current and perceived wisdom,  blood has now become a Specified Risk Material,  an SRM,  and now the slaughter houses,  all of them,  have to pay for the safe disposal of the blood which they spill.  Instead of an asset,  they now have a costly liability,  but the laughable point is,  that the blood which goes to the rendering plants,  is buried underground.  Work that one out,  it was an EU clown,  I guarantee it!

Alec.


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## millhouse (19 January 2013)

Thanks for the link - signed.


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## Alec Swan (19 January 2013)

Zuzan said:



			WHW have a petition going http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/information/latest-news?view=show&content_id=5403

Click to expand...

There should be no need for either cameras or a petition.  WHERE WAS THE STATE EMPLOYED VET?  WHERE WERE THE MEAT HYGIENE INSPECTORS?  How are they justifying their agreement to the practices on film?  Explain that one to me.

Bingo,  so WHW have started a petition,  they're "Doing something",  they're justifying their existence (as a matter of fact,  the rspca are doing exactly the same thing).  The race is on to see who can claim to have made the greatest impact,  whilst actually achieving nothing.

Yes,  on Monday I shall have a talk with WHW,  and see if I can find someone with a spine.

Alec.

ps.  as a footnote Zuzan,  it isn't you as a person who I'm fed up with,  it's a lame and corrupt system that's pushing my buttons!


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## cronkmooar (19 January 2013)

Leviathan said:



			its in cheshire .  


 not nice 

Click to expand...

Thank you very much for letting me know 

I presume you need a specific licence for horses - and that this has been suspended immediately (still haven't watched) but if its that bad they should not be allowed to continue to trade at this activity

Will sign petition


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## Zuzan (19 January 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			There should be no need for either cameras or a petition.  WHERE WAS THE STATE EMPLOYED VET?  WHERE WERE THE MEAT HYGIENE INSPECTORS?  How are they justifying their agreement to the practices on film?  Explain that one to me.

Bingo,  so WHW have started a petition,  they're "Doing something",  they're justifying their existence (as a matter of fact,  the rspca are doing exactly the same thing).  The race is on to see who can claim to have made the greatest impact,  whilst actually achieving nothing.

Yes,  on Monday I shall have a talk with WHW,  and see if I can find someone with a spine.

Alec.

ps.  as a footnote Zuzan,  it isn't you as a person who I'm fed up with,  it's a lame and corrupt system that's pushing my buttons! 

Click to expand...

No offence taken Alex... my take is irrespective of the "details" of the petition and what is / should be best practice... it basically comes down to making a BIG noise for govt bodies etc to take any action..  

Completely agree about WHERE on EARTH the inspectors vets etc were whilst this was going on.


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## BHS_official (20 January 2013)

The British Horse Society is shocked and revolted by the covert footage released by Sky News today. A statement has now been released with our full response.


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## Welly (20 January 2013)

Like most have read but can't veiw the footage, One has to ask how do they treat other animals at at this place! Was told this week that a load of ponies were taken of Bodmin Moor before Xmas to go for slaughter in Ireland. The sad thing is that this year the ponies have been looking very well.


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## Alec Swan (20 January 2013)

BHS_official said:



			The British Horse Society is shocked and revolted by the covert footage released by Sky News today. A statement has now been released with our full response.
		
Click to expand...

I've sent BHS_official a reply,  by pm,  and this is it;

Dear Sir,

I feel sure that those other forum users who've taken an interest in this matter will join me in applauding your stance.

I'd be grateful if the BHS would clarify their stance on the slaughter of horses,  under abattoir conditions,  and whilst accepting that there are inherent difficulties within any abattoir which deals with equines,  whether the BHS would support *"In principle"*,  that there is a need for a reduction in our equine numbers,  and that a return to a system which gave a commercial value to a horse carcass,  would be desirable.

Assuming that the BHS agrees that we simply can't continue as we are,  and within the current legislation,  and that we need to open up the doors to a level of trade which will encourage those with abattoir facilities to provide a service which is fit for purpose.

Further,  does the BHS agree that for individuals to lobby Defra and Government,  would be pointless,  and that accepting that there will be those interested parties who could be considered stake-holders,  then does the BHS agree that with others who hold a similar status,  that a determined drive needs to be given to a change in Government policy?

Does the BHS agree that with encouragement and the vital investment in improved abattoir facilities,  that the disgraceful scenes which were witnessed on the Sky News programme,  will be a thing of the past?

On a personal note,  I wonder if you can confirm whether you have previously or intend in the future,  to have discussions with the WHW and the welfare charities,  in an effort to find a way forward.  Would you consider a closed forum of those who would take a specific interest in a progressive stance?

Finally,  and this is just a personal observation,  I'm pleased to see that the FSA (though I suspect that you mean Defra),  have removed the licenses from those offending workmen,  rather than severing the number of UK Equine Abattoirs by 30%.

Though I'm sending this to you by PM,  I shall copy and post it under the relevant heading.  I'd be more than happy for any subsequent conversations to be held privately.

Alec Swan.


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## Rollin (20 January 2013)

Another person who cannot view the footage.  Southern Cleveland Bay Club website published an article, from USA, a few years ago, which argued that horses should NEVER be sent to Abbatoirs.  They are too sensitive and intelligent and will fight to live.

If this is happening in the UK I hate to think what goes on in France.

My horses are pts with me present, I would never send a horse away for slaughter.


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## HBM1 (20 January 2013)

could not agree more Rollin, it is a horrendous thought that they end up in situations like this.  I would like to say a big thank you to those who took the covert footage.  I know I cannot even bear to watch it, one still photo was enough for me to close the news page I was on.  I have no idea what horrors they saw, nor how they now sleep easy at night, but if it was not for people who did put themselves out to cover such atrocities, it would carry on.  

Even if ending a life, it must be done with compassion and care and not as if the last few moments of their lives do not matter at all.  It is heartbreaking to think what they go through and it is good to see the backlash this has received on all social forums.  I do hope the associations who can make a difference DO make a difference, but there is a lot the "little guy" can do too, so please do sign the petitions and write to your MPs.


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## luckyoldme (20 January 2013)

When you think of the money that top end race horse owners have at their disosal wouldn t it be great for the sport if they could stump up for a proper facility for disposal of their rejects.
Maybe its a naive point of view and i know its not just racehorses...
Also I think proper criminal proceedings agianst the offenders in these videos would act as a  deterrant for all abbatoir staff.


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## eahotson (20 January 2013)

I would like to see standards for all animals to be tightened up!


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## Rollin (20 January 2013)

Please listen to the Food Programme Radio Four I think it is repeated on Monday afternoon.

I missed the item - but an American Journalist followed the fate of a Racehorse called Silky Slue (not sure of spelling) who finished up in Europe.


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## brighteyes (20 January 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I've sent BHS_official a reply,  by pm,  and this is it;

Dear Sir,

I feel sure that those other forum users who've taken an interest in this matter will join me in applauding your stance.

I'd be grateful if the BHS would clarify their stance on the slaughter of horses,  under abattoir conditions,  and whilst accepting that there are inherent difficulties within any abattoir which deals with equines,  whether the BHS would support *"In principle"*,  that there is a need for a reduction in our equine numbers,  and that a return to a system which gave a commercial value to a horse carcass,  would be desirable.

Assuming that the BHS agrees that we simply can't continue as we are,  and within the current legislation,  and that we need to open up the doors to a level of trade which will encourage those with abattoir facilities to provide a service which is fit for purpose.

Further,  does the BHS agree that for individuals to lobby Defra and Government,  would be pointless,  and that accepting that there will be those interested parties who could be considered stake-holders,  then does the BHS agree that with others who hold a similar status,  that a determined drive needs to be given to a change in Government policy?

Does the BHS agree that with encouragement and the vital investment in improved abattoir facilities,  that the disgraceful scenes which were witnessed on the Sky News programme,  will be a thing of the past?

On a personal note,  I wonder if you can confirm whether you have previously or intend in the future,  to have discussions with the WHW and the welfare charities,  in an effort to find a way forward.  Would you consider a closed forum of those who would take a specific interest in a progressive stance?

Finally,  and this is just a personal observation,  I'm pleased to see that the FSA (though I suspect that you mean Defra),  have removed the licenses from those offending workmen,  rather than severing the number of UK Equine Abattoirs by 30%.

Though I'm sending this to you by PM,  I shall copy and post it under the relevant heading.  I'd be more than happy for any subsequent conversations to be held privately.

Alec Swan.
		
Click to expand...

Hang on though.  If you think it (the obtaining and releasing of footage) was 'not all as it seemed' and some sort of combined publicity stunt, why have you sent this email?  Was is staged of something? Should further questions be aksed?


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## Alec Swan (20 January 2013)

brighteyes said:



			Hang on though.  If you think it (the obtaining and releasing of footage) was 'not all as it seemed' and some sort of combined publicity stunt, why have you sent this email?  Was is staged of something? Should further questions be aksed?
		
Click to expand...

I don't understand your point.  Perhaps I'm being thick!  Explain to me,  if you will.

Alec.


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## brighteyes (20 January 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I don't understand your point.  Perhaps I'm being thick!  Explain to me,  if you will.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry Alec - on a different thread (the one with the misleading title, which now I can't find and was too lazy to link to, earlier) you implied it was a publicity stunt, and not quite what it appeared to be?  Have you changed your mind?   Apologies and has the other thread been removed?


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## Alec Swan (20 January 2013)

I don't think so,  but in answer to your question,  it's an inherent mistrust of charities,  especially when they would purport to support animals! 

I would hope that the BHS and WHW would be a little more focused on their purpose.  We'll see.

Alec.


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## BHS_Lee (21 January 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I've sent BHS_official a reply,  by pm,  and this is it;

Dear Sir,

I feel sure that those other forum users who've taken an interest in this matter will join me in applauding your stance.

I'd be grateful if the BHS would clarify their stance on the slaughter of horses,  under abattoir conditions,  and whilst accepting that there are inherent difficulties within any abattoir which deals with equines,  whether the BHS would support *"In principle"*,  that there is a need for a reduction in our equine numbers,  and that a return to a system which gave a commercial value to a horse carcass,  would be desirable.

Assuming that the BHS agrees that we simply can't continue as we are,  and within the current legislation,  and that we need to open up the doors to a level of trade which will encourage those with abattoir facilities to provide a service which is fit for purpose.

Further,  does the BHS agree that for individuals to lobby Defra and Government,  would be pointless,  and that accepting that there will be those interested parties who could be considered stake-holders,  then does the BHS agree that with others who hold a similar status,  that a determined drive needs to be given to a change in Government policy?

Does the BHS agree that with encouragement and the vital investment in improved abattoir facilities,  that the disgraceful scenes which were witnessed on the Sky News programme,  will be a thing of the past?

On a personal note,  I wonder if you can confirm whether you have previously or intend in the future,  to have discussions with the WHW and the welfare charities,  in an effort to find a way forward.  Would you consider a closed forum of those who would take a specific interest in a progressive stance?

Finally,  and this is just a personal observation,  I'm pleased to see that the FSA (though I suspect that you mean Defra),  have removed the licenses from those offending workmen,  rather than severing the number of UK Equine Abattoirs by 30%.

Though I'm sending this to you by PM,  I shall copy and post it under the relevant heading.  I'd be more than happy for any subsequent conversations to be held privately.

Alec Swan.
		
Click to expand...

Hi Alec

I am more than happy to respond to this in public - there is nothing confidential (although please bear in mind I can't promise to respond quickly to posts on here - there simply isn't time to monitor the forum). 

I think the BHS has made it pretty clear that we absolutely and unreservedly support a reduction in the number of horses in Britain. We clearly have far far more animals than we can cope with as evidenced by the number of welfare cases that the various agencies are dealing with - and this number is ever increasing. We are seeing far more multiple horse cases now than five years ago for example. In part this has to be tackled by decreasing the number that we are breeding (by which we primarily mean the low quality animals that are seemingly constantly churned out with no thought for their future). That is something we have been working on for some time (e.g. castration days and so on). 

However, obviously lowering the numbers bred without legislation is incredibly difficult and does not impact on the overpopulation issues that exist now. So putting aside the moral issues of whether people should eat horsemeat (which is an entirely personal choice), we believe that abattoirs perform a much needed service. There are obviously all sorts of ethical questions over whether it is acceptable that we as a nation are in a position whereby our abattoirs to process so many horses that are apparently "surplus to requirements" (rather than ethically farmed for the purpose) but this needs to be addressed at the breeding end of the scale. 

What is imperative and without question is that if we have abattoirs they MUST operate to the highest of welfare standards. Clearly this has not been the case at the Red Lion which is totally unacceptable and there is no mitigation or justification for this. There are no reasons at all why equine abattoirs cannot operate efficiently and effectively whilst maintaining excellent welfare standards. So yes, to answer your question we believe there is a need for horse abattoirs (with the highest standards of welfare) and a return to a system where a horse carcass had real value would be beneficial. 

Indeed there is a very strong welfare arguement for fit for purpose abattoirs. Far better that a horse have its life ended quicky and humanely than be left to rot / suffer in a field as so many of the welfare cases we see sadly are. 

I don't agree that it is pointless for individuals to lobby Defra / the Government for change. I don't think it is ever really pointless. However, obviously it is imperative that the welfare stakeholders also do so. And the BHS will. I can't at this point speak for other organisations but I have no doubt that they also will, we do all work very closely together. But we do have to bear in mind that we are in a climate where cost cutting is king and deregulation is the favoured approach. We are not knocking on open doors.  The BHS can only claim to speak for its 75 000 members which is just a small percentage of Britian's riders which does limit the power of our voice. So there will always be a role for the individual as well as the charities. 

In terms of discussions with other organisations, you can absolutley rest assured that this will happen as it does frequently already. The National Equine Welfare Council, CEBEC and the Equine Health and Welfare Strategy for Great Britian are just a few of the ways in which we as a sector get together and facilitate joint working on these issues. I think it is fair to say that there hasn't always been great communication between the charities but this really is changing and has improved markedly. This is evidenced by the On The Verge report and the joint lobbying of Govenment we are doing in respect of this.

As a side note, it is indeed the FSA specifically that have revoked the licenses. This information was correct (although they are of course an agency of Defra). 

Apologies this has turned out rather longer than I anticipated! I hope I have answered all of your points. what I don't want though is for my ramblings to deflect from the key point here. What we saw in that footage was utterly unacceptable and we must, and will, do everything we can to ensure that it does not happen again.


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## horseydebbie (21 January 2013)

Couldn't watch the video. A lot of the horses that end up at this slaughter house go through Beeston Horse Sale (in Cheshire) I have been at the sale when the horses have been collected by this slaughter house. They are definatly not treated with any respect, and I have witnessed young foals being beaten with sticks and kicked to get them to the loading ramp. Where are the RSPCA who say they attend horse sales. I have NEVER seen them, and I go there quite often. It's about time something was done about this cruel treatment.


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## fatpiggy (21 January 2013)

Leviathan said:



			its in cheshire . 


Hmm, wonder if its the same one who an old farmer told me, slaughtered a pregnant mare which is apparently completely forbidden.  I don't think that was the only dodgy going-on there either, going by what he was saying.
		
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## eahotson (21 January 2013)

BHS_Lee said:



			Hi Alec

I am more than happy to respond to this in public - there is nothing confidential (although please bear in mind I can't promise to respond quickly to posts on here - there simply isn't time to monitor the forum). 

I think the BHS has made it pretty clear that we absolutely and unreservedly support a reduction in the number of horses in Britain. We clearly have far far more animals than we can cope with as evidenced by the number of welfare cases that the various agencies are dealing with - and this number is ever increasing. We are seeing far more multiple horse cases now than five years ago for example. In part this has to be tackled by decreasing the number that we are breeding (by which we primarily mean the low quality animals that are seemingly constantly churned out with no thought for their future). That is something we have been working on for some time (e.g. castration days and so on). 

However, obviously lowering the numbers bred without legislation is incredibly difficult and does not impact on the overpopulation issues that exist now. So putting aside the moral issues of whether people should eat horsemeat (which is an entirely personal choice), we believe that abattoirs perform a much needed service. There are obviously all sorts of ethical questions over whether it is acceptable that we as a nation are in a position whereby our abattoirs to process so many horses that are apparently "surplus to requirements" (rather than ethically farmed for the purpose) but this needs to be addressed at the breeding end of the scale. 

What is imperative and without question is that if we have abattoirs they MUST operate to the highest of welfare standards. Clearly this has not been the case at the Red Lion which is totally unacceptable and there is no mitigation or justification for this. There are no reasons at all why equine abattoirs cannot operate efficiently and effectively whilst maintaining excellent welfare standards. So yes, to answer your question we believe there is a need for horse abattoirs (with the highest standards of welfare) and a return to a system where a horse carcass had real value would be beneficial. 

Indeed there is a very strong welfare arguement for fit for purpose abattoirs. Far better that a horse have its life ended quicky and humanely than be left to rot / suffer in a field as so many of the welfare cases we see sadly are. 

I don't agree that it is pointless for individuals to lobby Defra / the Government for change. I don't think it is ever really pointless. However, obviously it is imperative that the welfare stakeholders also do so. And the BHS will. I can't at this point speak for other organisations but I have no doubt that they also will, we do all work very closely together. But we do have to bear in mind that we are in a climate where cost cutting is king and deregulation is the favoured approach. We are not knocking on open doors.  The BHS can only claim to speak for its 75 000 members which is just a small percentage of Britian's riders which does limit the power of our voice. So there will always be a role for the individual as well as the charities. 

In terms of discussions with other organisations, you can absolutley rest assured that this will happen as it does frequently already. The National Equine Welfare Council, CEBEC and the Equine Health and Welfare Strategy for Great Britian are just a few of the ways in which we as a sector get together and facilitate joint working on these issues. I think it is fair to say that there hasn't always been great communication between the charities but this really is changing and has improved markedly. This is evidenced by the On The Verge report and the joint lobbying of Govenment we are doing in respect of this.

As a side note, it is indeed the FSA specifically that have revoked the licenses. This information was correct (although they are of course an agency of Defra). 

Apologies this has turned out rather longer than I anticipated! I hope I have answered all of your points. what I don't want though is for my ramblings to deflect from the key point here. What we saw in that footage was utterly unacceptable and we must, and will, do everything we can to ensure that it does not happen again.
		
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Thanks for taking the time to make such a detailed reply.


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## millikins (21 January 2013)

I too couldn't watch it. I would say though, that what we don't need is *more* regulation. In all these awful cases, be they ill treated horses or abused children etc, it is the failure of those supposed to be in charge to use the powers that are available to them that is the problem. Yet more regulation simply allows politicians to appear to be doing something.


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## Biglets Mummy (21 January 2013)

I have signed and shared but I just cant watch the footage. I feel a bit of a wimp but I am reduced to tears just reading some of the articles. I pray that this hideous practice with end.


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## Biglets Mummy (21 January 2013)

horseydebbie said:



			Couldn't watch the video. A lot of the horses that end up at this slaughter house go through Beeston Horse Sale (in Cheshire) I have been at the sale when the horses have been collected by this slaughter house. They are definatly not treated with any respect, and I have witnessed young foals being beaten with sticks and kicked to get them to the loading ramp. Where are the RSPCA who say they attend horse sales. I have NEVER seen them, and I go there quite often. It's about time something was done about this cruel treatment.
		
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Well said....Couldn't agree more.


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## irish_only (21 January 2013)

just as an aside, if the rspca did their job at beeston in the first instance a lot of the the horse and ponies would not be sold as they are unfit to be there in the first place. if livestock sales had animals turning up in the same condition they auctioneers would be horrified and do something about it. 

that would create another can of worms. 




can anyone tell me how i can get my upper case to work


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## Moomin1 (21 January 2013)

irish_only said:



			just as an aside, if the rspca did their job at beeston in the first instance a lot of the the horse and ponies would not be sold as they are unfit to be there in the first place. if livestock sales had animals turning up in the same condition they auctioneers would be horrified and do something about it. 

that would create another can of worms. 




can anyone tell me how i can get my upper case to work
		
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Err, Trading Standards and the vet at Beeston should be doing that - that is their job.

Oh, and fwiw, TS attend Beeston most weeks.


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## paljoey (21 January 2013)

I did watch the video though had the sound off as did not want to be haunted. It was totally horrendous.

I believe Turners Abbatoir as featured advertise regularly in Horse and Hound. If this is true the management of H&H should suspend all advertising from Turners while the Abbatoir is being investigated.

Horse and Hound should take a stance on this - their currently loyal readers want to know where H&H stand.

Well done Hillside Sanctuary for undertaking this investigation.


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## Welly (21 January 2013)

I don't want to open old wounds but where was the RSPCA. and what have they got to say about  this. Well done WHW and BHS who have spoken out.


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## Moomin1 (21 January 2013)

Welly said:



			I don't want to open old wounds but where was the RSPCA. and what have they got to say about  this. Well done WHW and BHS who have spoken out.
		
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What do you mean by 'where were the RSPCA'?

Where were they meant to be?  Sitting in an abbattoir 24/7?


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## Echo Bravo (21 January 2013)

No but the vets should be.


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## Moomin1 (21 January 2013)

Echo Bravo said:



			No but the vets should be.
		
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Yes they should.


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## Alec Swan (21 January 2013)

BHS_Lee,

As another,  thank you for your detailed response.  I've emphasised my points,  and would hope that others with constructive thoughts,  may join with us.  In as much as you are able to assist in promoting a way forward,  I will be interested in your responses.

To save on the valued H&H forum space,  you will see that I've deleted those parts of your post which are accepted.

Alec.



BHS_Lee said:



			Hi Alec

I think the BHS has made it pretty clear that we absolutely and unreservedly support a reduction in the number of horses in Britain. We clearly have far far more animals than we can cope with as evidenced by the number of welfare cases that the various agencies are dealing with - and this number is ever increasing. We are seeing far more multiple horse cases now than five years ago for example. In part this has to be tackled by decreasing the number that we are breeding (by which we primarily mean the low quality animals that are seemingly constantly churned out with no thought for their future). That is something we have been working on for some time (e.g. castration days and so on).  *Accepted.*

However, obviously lowering the numbers bred without legislation is incredibly difficult and does not impact on the overpopulation issues that exist now. So putting aside the moral issues of whether people should eat horsemeat (which is an entirely personal choice), we believe that abattoirs perform a much needed service. There are obviously all sorts of ethical questions over whether it is acceptable that we as a nation are in a position whereby our abattoirs to process so many horses that are apparently "surplus to requirements" (rather than ethically farmed for the purpose) but this needs to be addressed at the breeding end of the scale.  

*Accepting that it would be commercially unviable to breed horses for meat (ergo,  we don't eat it!)  there is,  none the less,  a disposal market for those horses which are,  for a myriad of reasons,  unsuitable for a ridden future.  

To illustrate my point;  a horse which reaches the age of 3 years,  and is worth £500-1000 for slaughter,will have cost its owner,  probably double the sale value,  at a minimum.  Patently few would breed,  or Ethically Farm horses for meat,  because the returns wouldn't be sufficient.  The point of a commercial value,  is that it converts the horse from a liability,  into a perceived asset.  Without a final slaughter value,  every single horse is a costly liability.*

What is imperative and without question is that if we have abattoirs they MUST operate to the highest of welfare standards.  *I agree.* 

Clearly this has not been the case at the Red Lion which is totally unacceptable and there is no mitigation or justification for this.  *I don't agree.*

There are no reasons at all why equine abattoirs cannot operate efficiently and effectively whilst maintaining excellent welfare standards.  *Not so.  There are many reasons,  varied and on occasion contradictory,  why equine Abattoirs fail in their standards of care.  The British equine owning public,  supported by charities which have pandered to completely unreasonable demands,  have brought this upon them selves.  All abattoirs are run as businesses,  and with the totally unreasonable conditions placed upon them,  not I would add through welfare grounds,  but through licensing and restrictive demands.  To support my point,  there are 3 equine abattoirs in this country,  has anyone stopped to ask "Why"?*

So yes, to answer your question we believe there is a need for horse abattoirs (with the highest standards of welfare) and a return to a system where a horse carcass had real value would be beneficial.  *Now here,  we're making progress.  There is a stumbling block,  however.*

I don't agree that it is pointless for individuals to lobby Defra / the Government for change. I don't think it is ever really pointless. However, obviously it is imperative that the welfare stakeholders also do so. And the BHS will.  *So we can take that as a united front?*

But we do have to bear in mind that we are in a climate where cost cutting is king and deregulation is the favoured approach. We are not knocking on open doors.  The BHS can only claim to speak for its 75 000 members which is just a small percentage of Britian's riders which does limit the power of our voice. So there will always be a role for the individual as well as the charities.  *The individual,  no matter how well intentioned,  will never achieve the received heights of the "vote gathering" charity.*

In terms of discussions with other organisations, you can absolutley rest assured that this will happen as it does frequently already. The National Equine Welfare Council, CEBEC and the Equine Health and Welfare Strategy for Great Britian are just a few of the ways in which we as a sector get together and facilitate joint working on these issues.  *Can we be assured that your excellent body,  coupled with the WHW have opened up discussions,  with the HSA? *

I think it is fair to say that there hasn't always been great communication between the charities but this really is changing and has improved markedly. This is evidenced by the On The Verge report and the joint lobbying of Govenment we are doing in respect of this.  *I shall await the results of your joint approach,  with a deal of interest.*

As a side note, it is indeed the FSA specifically that have revoked the licenses. This information was correct (although they are of course an agency of Defra).  *Defra are the body who carries the can,  trust me on this!*

Apologies this has turned out rather longer than I anticipated! I hope I have answered all of your points. what I don't want though is for my ramblings to deflect from the key point here. What we saw in that footage was utterly unacceptable and we must, and will, do everything we can to ensure that it does not happen again.  *Your determination is laudable,  but just one final question,  could you spell out how you see the future,  considering the case specific questions?*

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I'm grateful to you for your efforts,  and though you may believe otherwise,  my sole intention is that the established charities step up to the plate,  and set aside their fund raising efforts to further assist in the resolution of a problem which is counter productive to animal welfare.

Alec.


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## MrPotts (21 January 2013)

Sorry BHS_Lee but Alec is right, it is Defra who pass or revoke the licence.


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## Zuzan (21 January 2013)

MrPotts said:



			Sorry BHS_Lee but Alec is right, it is Defra who pass or revoke the licence.
		
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FSA is an agency of DEFRA... either and both.. 

And well done BHS for being so coherent...

NB anybody wondering about the WHW petition it is now over 16,000 check .. 

From their FB page

_More than 16,000 people have signed our petition so far to ensure that the events reported by Sky News at the weekend never happen again - thank you to every one of you. Many more of you have asked for paper copies, and we'll get those to you as soon as we can. In the meantime, please keep liking and sharing to get this issue out there. Read more and sign our petition here http://bit.ly/VzYylX

Some of you have asked why only residents of EU countries can sign. We want to ensure that the British government takes this issue seriously and so in this case we are limiting signatures to EU residents, as this is an issue that directly affects them - either because they are UK residents, or because the meat of the slaughtered horses may have been exported to their country. If you are not in an EU country, we still greatly value your support on this issue. One way to help may be to seek out organisations working on conditions at slaughter in your own country. You can find a list of such organisations on the WSPA website.

We really appreciate the wonderful support that we get from around the world, and hope that together we can help protect horses wherever they are._


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## MrPotts (21 January 2013)

Zuzan, the fact that the FSA is a department of Defra is totally irrelevant. The FSA don't handle the licencing of UK abattoirs.


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## Alec Swan (22 January 2013)

Welly said:



			I don't want to open old wounds but where was the RSPCA. and what have they got to say about  this. Well done WHW and BHS who have spoken out.
		
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Moomin1 said:



			What do you mean by 'where were the RSPCA'?

Where were they meant to be?  Sitting in an abbattoir 24/7?
		
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Moomin1,  we're in agreement.

The rspca are a charity reliant upon charitable donations for their existence.  They are not involved in the issuing of operating licences and shouldn't be involved in prosecutions beyond the point of providing evidence to those who are responsible.  The rspca have no greater standing than any other charity.  There is a huge conflict of interest for any fund raising body who,  being reliant upon donations,  acts or attempts to act,  in an official capacity.

Alec.


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## Moomin1 (22 January 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Moomin1,  we're in agreement.

The rspca are a charity reliant upon charitable donations for their existence.  They are not involved in the issuing of operating licences and shouldn't be involved in prosecutions beyond the point of providing evidence to those who are responsible.  The rspca have no greater standing than any other charity.  There is a huge conflict of interest for any fund raising body who,  being reliant upon donations,  acts or attempts to act,  in an official capacity.

Alec.
		
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You are confused Alec, we are not in agreement whatsoever!


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## hackneylass2 (22 January 2013)

I would still like to know.... where were the vets? Seems to be a very obvious question unsanswered.


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## MrPotts (22 January 2013)

Hackneylass, I think a very worrying issue for the animals that are slaughtered in UK abbatoirs is that because a vet is a fairly well paid job (I know that vets will deny this) the abattoir tend to employ foreign vets, some barely even speak English, but they are cheap! Was a vet even present? As personally I don't know.


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## Luci07 (22 January 2013)

First to put my hand up and say I am not the biggest fan of the RSPCA but one thing I continually see is that whenever animal welfare is mentioned, it is assumed that the RSPCA will be there. It might be an interesting exercise to see the extent of the need in this country for animal welfare and then measure it against the charities that try to deal with this. And I do mean try. Sometimes it must feel like they are King Canute trying to order the tide back. There is an assumption (and I am not having a go at anyone here) that the rescue system is sufficient, well funded and organised to deal with all the issues. The reality is, RSPCA not withstanding, the vast number are run by volunteers, around families and full time jobs, existing on a hand to mouth existence trying to help give animals a second chance and frequently having to say no to taking in healthy animals as they just have no room left.


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## eahotson (22 January 2013)

MrPotts said:



			Hackneylass, I think a very worrying issue for the animals that are slaughtered in UK abbatoirs is that because a vet is a fairly well paid job (I know that vets will deny this) the abattoir tend to employ foreign vets, some barely even speak English, but they are cheap! Was a vet even present? As personally I don't know.
		
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They say a vet was present.Worrying if most are foreign as their ideas and ours MAY not match.


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## eahotson (22 January 2013)

Alec.   As our resident expert (we have no one else prepared to say they work or have worked in abatoirs ) on this forum. What would you do if you had a completely free hand?


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## MrPotts (22 January 2013)

Eahotson, Our ideas and theirs don't match, a lot of cattle aren't shot/stunned properly, why is this considered acceptable by the vets? Poland and Spain have very different standards of welfare to us. Each person on the line with a set job only has a certain amount of time to do their job, therefore mistakes are obviously going to happen. As someone mentioned on here, it is a certain 'type' that work in an abbatoir, it has to be, it's hardly the greatest work atmosphere. 

Cctv should be in every abattoir.


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## Tiggy1 (22 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Err, Trading Standards and the vet at Beeston should be doing that - that is their job.

Oh, and fwiw, TS attend Beeston most weeks.
		
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Thats exactly what i was going to say. Trading Standards should be doing there job. They come down hard enough on farmers who do genuinely care for their livestock.


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## eahotson (22 January 2013)

MrPotts said:



			Eahotson, Our ideas and theirs don't match, a lot of cattle aren't shot/stunned properly, why is this considered acceptable by the vets? Poland and Spain have very different standards of welfare to us. Each person on the line with a set job only has a certain amount of time to do their job, therefore mistakes are obviously going to happen. As someone mentioned on here, it is a certain 'type' that work in an abbatoir, it has to be, it's hardly the greatest work atmosphere. 

Cctv should be in every abattoir.
		
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Yes I can see that standards may be different but there are always going to be individuals, some more humane than others.Its the mention of 'type' thats worrying.We all tend to look down a bit on slaughtermen/women but they do a necessary job.Perhaps raising the pay and profile of these workers may help along with some psychological suport occasionally.I agree with the CCTV though.


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## MrPotts (22 January 2013)

The abattoirs can't afford to increase pay, hence why they employ so many polish. And an increase of pay would hardly improve the 'type' that work there. Three examples off of the top of my head, the first runs an abattoir, a convicted badger baiter, the video is still on YouTube and quite horrific (this is the view of a pro hunting person). The second, drove the wrong way down a major motorway killing a man in the process. The third, currently in custody for the murder of April Jones.


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## Alec Swan (22 January 2013)

eahotson said:



			........Its the mention of 'type' thats worrying.We all tend to look down a bit on slaughtermen/women but they do a necessary job.Perhaps raising the pay and profile of these workers may help........
		
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Thanks for your first sentence,  that'll impress those who are looked down upon!  Your second sentence,  no amount of money converts a moron into Phd student.  Familiarity breeds contempt,  and without an established and peer lead ethos,  a lack of care will always follow the ignorant man. 



eahotson said:



			They say a vet was present.Worrying if most are foreign as their ideas and ours MAY not match.
		
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Sadly,  those foreign vets employed all so often come from cultures which lack our sensibilities,  rightly or not.



eahotson said:



			Alec.   As our resident expert (we have no one else prepared to say they work or have worked in abatoirs ) on this forum. What would you do if you had a completely free hand?
		
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That's very kind of you,  but your confidence is misplaced.  This is a topic which wanders far from the humane treatment of animals,  it involves the whole concept of how we live our lives.  There has always been,  and will always be,  cruelty within our slaughter systems.  We cannot eradicate it completely,  but we can give those who carry out such work,  a degree of self respect and we can instil the Slaughterman's Creed within their thought patterns,  and we can encourage them to take a pride in their work.  It only takes one rotten apple....... 

If I had a completely free hand;

I'd start off with Government policy,  and with Defra in particular.  I would encourage those within the Halls of Power,  to point out to the faceless cretins who burden us with the most stupid of rules and conditions from Europe,  that their apparent concern is actually counterproductive.......

Allow me to give you two examples;  Did you know that wool is now considered to be a material which is now classed as an SRM?  When it isn't bought for the wool trade,  it has to be incinerated at a licensed premises.  Do you know why?  You probably don't,  so let me tell you,  when sheep are clipped there is the odd scrape of skin which may come off with the wool,  and that skin is where the _perceived or imagined_risk is.  

The second example is that there was a time when abattoirs were allowed to sell the blood which they gathered,  in bulk,  and it was used as a grass fertiliser.  It was highly efficient.  Nowadays,  blood is also an SRM and so it's buried deep underground.  Work that one out.  The point of my anti establishment tirade is that the abattoirs have to pay the crippling disposal cost of ALL SRMs,  and this has a knock-on effect upon their ability to make a business profitable,  have further investment in their plants,  employ correctly trained staff,  and employ vets who actually care.  I'm staggered that there are as many as three equine abattoirs which are still extant. 

Government couldn't give two hoots for animal welfare,  and some of the charities are little better.  Government's primary concern is the garnering of votes and the bulk of the charities are fighting over a diminishing supply of funds.  In 20 years time,  the number of animal welfare societies will have been halved,  through economic pressures and failure of their own making.  You see if I'm not right!

What would I do,  if I had a free hand,  and a wand?  I'd gather around me those who were able to put aside their own narrow agendas,  that's for a start.  Then I'd listen to those who were stake holders.  I'd listen to those who could see the sense of establishing a workable,  humane and profitable return to the horse becoming a creature of value,  both fiscal and intrinsic.  

I'd group those animal charities together,  insist that they would have their charitable status withdrawn if they refuse to work together,  and have them place before their adoring public,  a united front,  a front which clearly explains that we have a responsibility to animal care,  and that where we've failed in the past,  through out own petty little in-house competitions,  we will now set out to do what is the fabric of our own tenets.

That's the start of what I'd do.  Following on from that,  State inspectors would,  with the assistance of the more experienced,  insist upon and assist with,  the installation of slaughter systems which reduce the needs for labour,  reduce the stress which is forced upon those animals going for killing,  and in short,  make themselves more efficient.

Education is the trick,  but it wont happen,  because there isn't the will.

Alec.


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## eahotson (22 January 2013)

Alec I don't look down on workers in abattoirs (why abattoir why not slaughterhouses?).My much respect grandfather had a slaughtermans licence and was in fact a kind and careing (but not sentimental) person with animals.I have noticed in the posts t.hough, that there are remarks about the TYPE of people, nnot up to much the implication being, of slaughtermen.This is not good at any level.Better pay and conditions will up the esteem of people working in this industry.Oh yes it will.Who has more esteem a doctor or a road sweeper? Added to which what if the road sweeper earned more than the doctor?Yes I know the doctor is better educated!Really at the end of the day I refuse to believe that it is  not possible to have slaughter houses run decently and humanely.Funnily enough the Red Lion slaughterhouse said that it did usually do horses singly BUT where the horses are close companions it is more distressing to seperate them.I accept that.


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## MrPotts (22 January 2013)

Who has more intelligence, a doctor or a road sweeper? Likely it is the doctor.

Abattoir instead of slaughter houses/man as the word slaughter scares the general public.


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## Alec Swan (22 January 2013)

MrPotts said:



			.......

Abattoir instead of slaughter houses/man as the word slaughter scares the general public.
		
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Traditionally,  the air of time and tradition were attached to killing areas,  when they were known as "Slaughter Halls".  That was in the days when tradesmen took a pride in their work,  and they were exalted amongst their peers,  and boys served apprenticeships.  That was then.

Alec.


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## Frumpoon (22 January 2013)

Can I ask a question - something confuses me - the orginal H&H article mentioned only 2 licensed places to send horses....near to me in Staffs is a place called MHS Horse Disposal...is this also an abbatoir? Not unlicensed surely?


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## eahotson (22 January 2013)

MrPotts said:



			Who has more intelligence, a doctor or a road sweeper? Likely it is the doctor.

Abattoir instead of slaughter houses/man as the word slaughter scares the general public.
		
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So we pay people by their LIKELY IQ do we? Some people doing quite menial jobs can have suprising IQs.


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## Captain Crasher (22 January 2013)

I took "licenced" to mean licenced to slaughter horses for human consumption. MHS Horse Disposal, AFAIK, do emergency slaughter of casualties e.g at point-to-points, road accidents etc, for use as dog meat. They provide a very valuable service.


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## irish_only (22 January 2013)

Tiggy1 said:



			Thats exactly what i was going to say. Trading Standards should be doing there job. They come down hard enough on farmers who do genuinely care for their livestock.
		
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My point exactly. I used to frequent the beeston sales fortnightly, witnessed many unfortunate creatures that should NOT have been allowed to go through the sale, whilst also observing an official in uniform standing by.


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## hackneylass2 (23 January 2013)

My point was notwithstanding the nationality of the vet surely they should be up to date and conversant with UK rules and regs.
Seems to me that the current state of affairs is sadly lacking and who knows...the other equine abattoirs may be caught out some time in the future. Time and care is money and quite a few have in the past cited Red Lion as a decent place for a horse to end up.

What worries me is the 'method' that the other main abattoir uses is strange.... seems to lack stability and looks very awkward.  I have no gripe against slaughtermen or women at all but surely a handgun would be more accurate? Maybe an expert could help me with this.

More than one horse together?  mmmm maybe with a vet PTS and I mean PTS as opposed to destroyed.  But two or more in a kill box ?  I cant fathom the humanity in that.


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## Louise12 (23 January 2013)

I saw a horse not put down properly at a point to point in Ireland once. The poor animal was covered in a tarpaulin and then got up and careered around, obviously seriously injured to begin with anyway. This would lead me to think that apart from the appalling cruelty involved in this incident, it is much safer for everyone if animals are put down swiftly and humanely. On another point, we once took a horse to Straffan abattoir and they were excellent  sympathetic and put him down for us there and then. There was no stunning. I am shocked this happens. This was over fifteen years ago though, not sure what the story is now. This also raises another issue with regard to qualifications and care. It was a vet at the point to point, not sure about the abattoir. Intelligence, humanity and care are different things, and not confined to qualifications that people hold.
Finally I would like to make one more point  with regard to communicating with the BHS and other bodies I do not wish anybody to do so on my behalf on this forum. I do not properly understand or share the views of people I barely know, and am perfectly capable of communicating myself


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## beth21 (23 January 2013)

What is imperative and without question is that if we have abattoirs they MUST operate to the highest of welfare standards. *I agree. *

Click to expand...





			Clearly this has not been the case at the Red Lion which is totally unacceptable and there is no mitigation or justification for this. *I don't agree.*

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Would you mind expanding on this please Alec?

Depending on what part of that statement you don't agree with (unless you disagree with all of it of course) I was wondering how you would argue either that the Red Lion *was* operating to the highest of welfare standards or whether you could justify the findings and footage found at the Red Lion that have been released (That IMO, are not justifiable, no matter what angle you come from or clever spin you put on it). 

Apologies if I've misunderstood, I am just curious to know how in any way, that statement isn't true.


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## Alec Swan (23 January 2013)

beth21 said:



			Would you mind expanding on this please Alec?

Depending on what part of that statement you don't agree with (unless you disagree with all of it of course) I was wondering how you would argue either that the Red Lion *was* operating to the highest of welfare standards or whether you could justify the findings and footage found at the Red Lion that have been released (That IMO, are not justifiable, no matter what angle you come from or clever spin you put on it). 

Apologies if I've misunderstood, I am just curious to know how in any way, that statement isn't true.
		
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Assuming that you read my post,  in its entirety,  you will have seen that I found some of those scenes as distressing as did others.

The point with which I disagreed,  strongly,  was that there was no justification,  or mitigation for such behaviour,  and whilst there isn't,  it should be understood that if we as horse owning people,  blandly stand by and tell others what we expect of them,  whilst at the same time hamstringing their efforts,  then it's WE who need to be prepared to shoulder our share of the responsibility.  That's every single one of us.  

For those who are irritated by the above passage,  and if you don't agree with me,  then take steps to rectify the lunacy of our current situation.

We are in this unholy mess,  and it's all of our own making.  By tacit agreement with our charities and our government,  we have brought this situation upon ourselves.

Time for change,  I'd suggest.

Alec.


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## Moomin1 (23 January 2013)

I see your point Alec, looking at the wider picture of things.  But I don't think that is in any way an excuse for what is seen in the footage.


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## jendie (23 January 2013)

There is no excuse, no justification whatsoever, for the sheer cruelty and inhumanity evidenced in this video. It makes me feel ashamed to be human. I can only imagine that the person responsible has become de-humanised by the environment he is working in, and that makes me suspect his behaviour was considered acceptable by his peers. Peer pressure has amazing power....for good or for bad.


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## beth21 (23 January 2013)

You make some very good points Alec, no one can dispute that.

I have to agree with Moomin though, there's no excuse for the way those horses were treated. The people who are caught in that footage, are the *only* ones responsible for their actions towards those horses. There's no excuse for that. 

Although I have to say that by acting as a responsible horse owner, who has one horse (a rescue I might add) that will be with me and well cared for until the end of his life, I feel as if I am already doing something to help, no matter how small it might seem. So I wouldn't agree that I'm 'blandly standing by'. I'm doing what I can which is better than nothing. 

We can all play a part in helping to fix this in that we can all teach and practice responsible horse ownership and breeding. But we aren't all responsible for causing it, IMO.


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## Moomin1 (23 January 2013)

beth21 said:



			You make some very good points Alec, no one can dispute that.

I have to agree with Moomin though, there's no excuse for the way those horses were treated. The people who are caught in that footage, are the *only* ones responsible for their actions towards those horses. There's no excuse for that. 

Although I have to say that by acting as a responsible horse owner, who has one horse (a rescue I might add) that will be with me and well cared for until the end of his life, I feel as if I am already doing something to help, no matter how small it might seem. So I wouldn't agree that I'm 'blandly standing by'. I'm doing what I can which is better than nothing. 

We can all play a part in helping to fix this in that we can all teach and practice responsible horse ownership and breeding. But we aren't all responsible for causing it, IMO.
		
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100% agree.  It is the attitude of irresponsible horse owners and breeders that needs changing, and people such as Clwyd Davies who are indiscriminately allowing horses to continuously breed uncontrolled who need tackling.


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## Alec Swan (23 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			I see your point Alec, looking at the wider picture of things.  But I don't think that is in any way an excuse for what is seen in the footage.
		
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I haven't explained my self,  too well,  I apologise.  Rather than "Excusing" the awful scenes,  I would hope that if the "Reasons" for the shameful events are explained and understood,  then rather than telling the abattoir staff  AND their employers,  that their conduct isn't acceptable,  then we can,  by changing the regime,  improve the lot of all those involved in the euthanasia of horses,  and obviously,  the horses themselves.

Changing the regime wont happen by decree,  but it will happen if we can reinstate a trade in horse meat,  and then we increase the value of the animal,  and by so doing we encourage others to treat them with respect,  there will be financial investment in those accepting plants,  and we will have a win-win situation.

Currently,  horses simply aren't worth bothering with,  so nobody does.  Telling them that they should care isn't the answer.  Give those involved in the slaughter process a reason to treat their victims with respect,  and that's what they'll do.



jendie said:



			........ Peer pressure has amazing power....for good or for bad.
		
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I agree with you,  entirely.  I have a chum who manages a large abattoir which deals with the more usual cattle,  sheep and pigs.  When we saw the disgraceful conduct from Cheales,  last year,  I asked him what he thought.  He told me that had anyone in his employ behaved as those men did on film,  his own staff would have turned on them,  and they would have been given instant dismissal.  It never happens within his plant.

Cruelty to animals at the point of slaughter is counterproductive and costly.  It slows down the process and reduces the efficiency of any processing plant.

Horses,  put quite simply,  aren't like other animals.  Cattle,  sheep and pigs when they go through an abattoir,  are effectively living as they always have,  they're travelling up raceways,  the cattle,  whilst going into a shooting box,  have been in handling systems which are known as a crush,  but it isn't that simple with horses.  If we're to be humane,  then there needs to be purpose made and designed and importantly,  _Modern_,  handling systems installed,  but without an end commercial value for the products of their labours,  then no one with half a braincell is going to stick hundreds of thousands of pounds into a system,  simply out of the goodness of their hearts,  are they?

With a "Quid pro quo" approach,  we may make progress.  Without it,  we will stay as we are.

Alec.


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## Moomin1 (23 January 2013)

Mmm, I'm not convinced by that Alec.  It would be nice to think that every single member of staff at an abbattoir would treat them with respect and humanity, should they hold more of a value, however I don't think the world works like that.  Look at the Bernard Matthews charade.  There are bad eggs in every business or organisation that will not for whatever reason follow procedures or protocol.  

In my opinion there needs to be put in place a much more strict monitoring of abbattoirs in light of this, and only then will things like this become a lot less likely to take place.


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## paisley (23 January 2013)

Firstly, in no way am I condoning or excusing the appalling conduct shown at the abattoir. So please dont jump up and down in outrage at this post.

However, as truly awful as it is, it should be remembered that it is an incredibly hard filthy job that the majority of us would find impossible to do.

As such, it will at times, attract the sort of person who will not care about the equine welfare. And frankly, given the level of over-breeding and the grim condition of some horses sent there, it seems a little sanctimonious of us to expect them to.

I cant answer for the walloping them with bars or ignoring serious health issues, but prior to this, I have never seen them stun more than one horse at a time.

Im going to agree with Alec that finding good compassionate staff is the way to ensure standards are kept.  Based on the images of the horse who appears to regain consciousness I will speculate that work has started before all the staff/vet were present (as there is very little blood evident, and the trolleys used to dress the carcass are not upright, ready for use). 

The abattoir used to employ at least 2 long-term members of staff who if they had been present, would have acted very swiftly on a failed stun (and on one occasion have done so), and prevented that from happening.

Its never been the best of places, or been equal to the respect and care shown at Potters, but there has clearly been an almighty failure somewhere and quite rightly needs addressing


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## eahotson (23 January 2013)

paisley said:



			Firstly, in no way am I condoning or excusing the appalling conduct shown at the abattoir. So please dont jump up and down in outrage at this post.

However, as truly awful as it is, it should be remembered that it is an incredibly hard filthy job that the majority of us would find impossible to do.

As such, it will at times, attract the sort of person who will not care about the equine welfare. And frankly, given the level of over-breeding and the grim condition of some horses sent there, it seems a little sanctimonious of us to expect them to.

I cant answer for the walloping them with bars or ignoring serious health issues, but prior to this, I have never seen them stun more than one horse at a time.

Im going to agree with Alec that finding good compassionate staff is the way to ensure standards are kept.  Based on the images of the horse who appears to regain consciousness I will speculate that work has started before all the staff/vet were present (as there is very little blood evident, and the trolleys used to dress the carcass are not upright, ready for use). 

The abattoir used to employ at least 2 long-term members of staff who if they had been present, would have acted very swiftly on a failed stun (and on one occasion have done so), and prevented that from happening.

Its never been the best of places, or been equal to the respect and care shown at Potters, but there has clearly been an almighty failure somewhere and quite rightly needs addressing
		
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Well said Paisley and welcome.


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## paisley (23 January 2013)

Thank you! Just an additional thought, this abattoir would also do cows, and I'm pretty sure the cameras would have been in place for a long time. It would be good to know if the mistreatment was extended to these as well, and if so, why haven't we been told?


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## Alec Swan (23 January 2013)

eahotson said:



			Well said Paisley and welcome.
		
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I'll go along with that.  

If we're to consider animal welfare,  then we also need to consider the man at the sharp end.  We need to direct him and give him a sense of purpose,  and a sense of self respect,  too.

Alec.


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## SusieT (23 January 2013)

typical farmer there Alec-blaming it all on the eu and saying that you can't possibly do anything unless you see clear pound signs. The question here is not profitability but the human ability to treat animals correctly. All that red tape you talk about -some of it is rubbish i'm sure. Some of it has a very valid reason - such as the welfare 'red tape' that has been broken here. none of the things that have happened here have a reason. it shoudl not happen in any other species either, it just so happens that the charity with an interest have an interest in horses.


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## SusieT (23 January 2013)

it's also easy to blame everyone else for the men doing a poor job-they have a resonsibility and just because they aren't being given 6 figure salaries for it or being applauded at every turn does not excuse their actions. other slaughtermen do their job properly.


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## SusieT (23 January 2013)

Permanent cctv in slaughterhouses is the only way to combat this and should I think be there. the OV in this case should be struck off as there is no way he was not aware.


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## SusieT (23 January 2013)

slaughtermen don't care how much an aniimal is worth when they shoot it-be it a cow, or horse or sheep. They are concerned with getting them up the chute and on the hook asap.


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## Alec Swan (23 January 2013)

For those who've never previously heard of Susie,  allow me to introduce her.

She's deranged.  Debate is pointless.

Alec.


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## MrPotts (24 January 2013)

Well alec, she does have a point. They are put under pressure time wise if the have a large number on that day.


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## Moomin1 (24 January 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			For those who've never previously heard of Susie,  allow me to introduce her.

She's deranged.  Debate is pointless.

Alec.
		
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Kettle calling..


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## MrPotts (24 January 2013)

Susie, regardless of pay, I still think you will only attract a certain type to work in these places, this is because it takes a certain type to work in that environment.


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## amandap (24 January 2013)

MrPotts said:



			Susie, regardless of pay, I still think you will only attract a certain type to work in these places, this is because it takes a certain type to work in that environment.
		
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This is the bit that interests me. What type are these workers? I do feel it's not in any way a pleasant job and do the workers get support and regular training/debriefing etc? Without some sort of support and reward for good practice it must be very easy to slip into a less respectful way of handling.
Those of us who eat meat rely on these people to do something most of us would find abhorrent/impossible and I'm sure these workers aren't sadistic people who get pleasure from the job in itself.


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## tristar (24 January 2013)

i to think we are all responsible for this situation, in some way, in the sense that we need to fight all the way until the horse gets a better deal allround, its our responsibilty to make certain that all abuse at whatever level stops.


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## eahotson (24 January 2013)

amandap said:



			This is the bit that interests me. What type are these workers? I do feel it's not in any way a pleasant job and do the workers get support and regular training/debriefing etc? Without some sort of support and reward for good practice it must be very easy to slip into a less respectful way of handling.
Those of us who eat meat rely on these people to do something most of us would find abhorrent/impossible and I'm sure these workers aren't sadistic people who get pleasure from the job in itself.
		
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Thank you for that.


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## Alec Swan (24 January 2013)

MrPotts said:



			......., I still think you will only attract a certain type to work in these places, this is because it takes a certain type to work in that environment.
		
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I don't agree with you.  Are only a certain "Type" attracted to the trade of undertaker?  Are morticians born as a "Type"?  I'd doubt that they are,  but I'll accept that as in many walks of life,  the environment in which we live and work can shape us as people.  I farm and would refer to myself as a "Stockman".  I wasn't born that way,  it's what I became.

Competent and skilled slaughtermen aren't necessarily of a "Type",  and as in all walks of life and in all trades,  we will find a wide spectrum of individuals.  They aren't murders,  in the main,  I promise you!!

Alec.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (24 January 2013)

Well, I have only had first hand experience with a few slaughter men. One was my eldest sister's boyfriend when she was in her mid-teens. He was very bad news. In fact his entire family were well known in the village and not in a good way. Two of his nephews were horrible bullies. I can wholeheartedly attest to that. Those two boys, their other siblings, and their cousins were renowned for being trouble makers. Their parents/grandparents would often witness their bad behaviour and do nothing about it. My sister's boyfriend was very scruffy in appearance (what my sister saw in him I'll never, ever know), was controlling, and verbally abusive. When my sister finally saw sense and split up with him, he put a big dent in the family car, and threatened to kill her. We never got the police involved for fear of what he and his nasty family would do.

I also met some of his co-workers and they were equally as vile. I dread to think of what they did to the poor animals they killed.  

As for Red Lion. Isn't it a shame that it took an undercover film to catch those pathetic excuses of human beings. What the hell was the abattoir doing that it never picked up on those barbaric practices themselves? Do they regularly monitor their workers? Do they screen them thoroughly before they employ them? Do they have to pass intensive animal handling tests? How much training goes into their weapon handling? Why did Red Lion issue a ridiculous statement saying that they kept those three ponies together in the stun box because they were friends? I don't know that much about equine behaviour, but I thought that was beyond inhumane.

In light of this, and other exposes on the treatment of slaughter animals, I think it is high time that CCTV was put into every abattoir and a three strike law implemented. If a slaughter house is seen to have two instances of animals being treated inhumanely, then a third will see immediate suspension of activities at the abattoir and possible closure. Something has to be done to stop this abuse. Letting the abattoirs off lightly is going to do nothing. Should abattoirs not be responsible for ensuring that their staff are fit for purpose and that they continually do an efficient job of handling, stunning, and killing in a humane manner?


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## Alec Swan (24 January 2013)

Anecdotal tales of barbarism and needless cruelty,  though supportive of the need for change,  are in themselves of no help,  what so ever.

It is understood that we need change.  I do take your point L_m_L that if cctv cameras are to be installed,  then there would need to be a clear penalty clause.  

As I see it,  the problem with cctv is that if every work day lasts for 8 hours,  then someone is going to have to spend the next day,  all of it,  viewing the film.  A pointless exercise,  you'll agree.  

What we actually need are MHS Inspectors and State Vets who are present,  at the point of killing,  AS THEY ARE EMPLOYED TO BE,  and that they will also comply with the remits of their specific work conditions.  I suspect that most of them sit in their purpose built offices,  filling out reams of paper work,  rather than overseeing the day to day work.  I may be wrong though!!

Alec.


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## eahotson (24 January 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Anecdotal tales of barbarism and needless cruelty,  though supportive of the need for change,  are in themselves of no help,  what so ever.

It is understood that we need change.  I do take your point L_m_L that if cctv cameras are to be installed,  then there would need to be a clear penalty clause.  

As I see it,  the problem with cctv is that if every work day lasts for 8 hours,  then someone is going to have to spend the next day,  all of it,  viewing the film.  A pointless exercise,  you'll agree.  

What we actually need are MHS Inspectors and State Vets who are present,  at the point of killing,  AS THEY ARE EMPLOYED TO BE,  and that they will also comply with the remits of their specific work conditions.  I suspect that most of them sit in their purpose built offices,  filling out reams of paper work,  rather than overseeing the day to day work.  I may be wrong 
Alec.
		
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Sadly Alec you may well be right.


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## amandap (24 January 2013)

I'm not really knowledgeable about improving practice and standards but surely there needs to be worker empowerment, reward, support as well as supervision and reprisal?

Often jobs that, in truth, crucially depend on those at the sharp end for quality care and consistently high standards are generally undervalued, underpaid, understaffed and only a topic worthy of attention when things go wrong. 
If we want good care for these horses and other animals at slaughter then we have to demand it and be prepared pay for it as end users.

ps. A different working environment would soon weed out the minority that may be like those described earlier.


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## MrPotts (24 January 2013)

Alec, as someone mentioned if you employ vets, they can be intimidated, also how can the slaughterhouses afford to pay a UK vet salary? I know of one vet who said nothing when a foreman skinned a patch on a still very conscious bull to re-shoot the animal as it hadn't been stunned properly. If cctv was in place, the fact that it was filming would have deterred this, it's irrelevant of whether every hour of film would be watched. The rspca seem to like throwing their money around at the moment, surely they can fund someone to watch the film at random? Or another charity? 

The topic of pay keeps arising, apart from the polish who willingly work for less, slaughtering is good money - why do people on this thread think it is a poorly paid job?


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## Alec Swan (25 January 2013)

MrPotts said:



			Alec, as someone mentioned if you employ vets, they can be intimidated, also how can the slaughterhouses afford to pay a UK vet salary? 

I know of one vet who said nothing when a foreman skinned a patch on a still very conscious bull to re-shoot the animal as it hadn't been stunned properly. 

.......
		
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A vet is supplied by the State Veterinary Service,  as are the Meat Hygiene Services Inspectors.  At the last count,  they are charged out at about £130 per hour.  As you say,  affording them is not an easy matter.  The problem arises when a horse travels in as a welfare case,  or the owner says that they want the horse shot whilst they are present,  then that would be possible,  but the carcass would go as dog food,  I suppose,  were there not a vet present at the time of slaughter.

Accidents occasionally happen,  and if an animal fails to go down properly to the shot,  then it has to be re-shot.  I saw a Friesian bull which had gone berserk,  and the brave and confident knackerman had gone into a barn with only a round bale of straw between him and the bull which was intent on squashing him,  and with a shotgun,  he gave it 5 barrels before it eventually gave in.  In emergencies,  these things sometimes happen.

Alec.


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## MrPotts (25 January 2013)

So basically Alec, you are saying that you are in disagreement because if something similar to what you describe above was caught on cctv, the general public and do gooders would be outraged but a vet would fully understand it had to be done for the safety of both the bull and any humans that may have been caught in its path...


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## eahotson (25 January 2013)

Alec I do accept that with the best will in the world OCCASIONAL accidents will happen.Whoever took that video though EXPECTED breeches to occur.You wouldn't take a camera in if you thought you might have to wait say 12 months to get something worth filming.


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## Alec Swan (25 January 2013)

MrPotts said:



			So basically Alec, you are saying that you are in disagreement because if something similar to what you describe above was caught on cctv, the general public and do gooders would be outraged but a vet would fully understand it had to be done for the safety of both the bull and any humans that may have been caught in its path...
		
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That's exactly what I'm saying.  I am NOT however condoning the 3 ponies which had been crowded into a shooting box,  with one attacking another,  and the chaos which ensued.  The was neither a slip-up,  nor an accident.  That was intentional,  and in my view unacceptable.

eahotson,  I hope that the above will be acceptable as an answer to your post,  too.

We seem to be concentrating on "That particular piece of film",  it seems to me,  rather than addressing the larger and broader issue of the welfare of horses,  in the UK,  which are sent for slaughter.  

I was hoping that I could gather a group together who would accept my argument that if we were to re-establish,  initially through pressure upon our equine charities,  and from them to Government,  a trade in correctly slaughtered horse meat,  then with an improved profit margin,  with if needed,  cctv cameras,  we can once again have horses reaching a humane and worthwhile end,  in as much as that's ever going to be possible.

Am I alone?

Alec.


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## MrPotts (25 January 2013)

You have my full support Alec.

Also I do feel that there could be a market in the UK for horse meat (if slaughtered humanely).


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## tristar (25 January 2013)

you are not alone, i dont always agree with what you say, but this time you are making a bold effort to open a debate about what we can do on a practical level.

i've always wondered how they restrain such as wild foals, well, indeed any horse which is upset, after all we use sedative for everyday procedures such as teeth rasping, we all are aware how much easier it is to deal with a calm horse, although of course any  restraint welfare advancements are only ever going to be as good as the people implementing them and the will and legislation to punish abuse, would this not have to come from the top - ministerial level? what's defra's position on the film, have they seen it?


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## tristar (25 January 2013)

im not sure there would be that much of market in british isles for horsemeat! a lot of people have traditionally found the idea of horsemeat distasteful.

also a lot of horses that go for meat are not prime farm, clean meat animals, they are old, sick, unwanted, a lot suffering from some degree of unsoundness for which they have received drugs etc. and  neglected and unwanted horses that have not been wormed correctly, i don't know if there are any health implications there, say from migrating worms in the system, and yes there quite a few healthy ones, but its a very mixed bag.


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## Silent Knight (25 January 2013)

On a horse lovers forum, a film like this will always be viewed with emotion by many people. I had flashbacks of the scenes whilst driving to the shops this morning. I wish I hadn't watched it

I fully understand that there is a need to slaughter horses. But cruelty can never be tolerated in any form. At least there is now open debate. Accidents and hiccups will always occur in every work situation, but this has obviously going on for a long time. Hence the video footage being taken.

It's a very sad situation, especialy for people who have sent their horses there.


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## amandap (25 January 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			What would I do,  if I had a free hand,  and a wand?  I'd gather around me those who were able to put aside their own narrow agendas,  that's for a start.  Then I'd listen to those who were stake holders.  I'd listen to those who could see the sense of establishing a workable,  humane and profitable return to the horse becoming a creature of value,  both fiscal and intrinsic.
		
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Having now taken the time to read the whole thread I believe these are great and fundamentally important points. There's no getting away from it slaughter HAS to be profitable so creating and controlling a supply and demand has to be part of it whatever animal we are talking about. If profit is tight then there is no room for investment or employing suitable vets and workers let alone structural and precedural changes to facilitate improved and humane handling and killing.
Other points about changing the status and culture are vital too. It seems a complete reassessment of all aspects needs to happen with changes made and enforced.

I am very depressed to read some posts that hint of criminals and gangster types who have no respect for animals of other humans have some sort of 'control' of these facilities and appear to use intimidation and exploit and use unsuitable foreign workers.
I suppose I am not too surprised sadly, it happens around the world. Look at the Conklin Dairy Farms atrocities caught on film in USA.

However, if the handling routine, procedures and facilities aren't suitable and well planned then workers are dealing with huge extra pressures which will only add to the stress of the job and foster anger, frustration, fear and short tempers.

I'm wondering what type of horses are the largest percentage slaughtered in UK? Domestic (including small breeders) or sport waste?


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## Alec Swan (25 January 2013)

amandap,

with your consent,  I shall copy your post and send to to a director of the HSA;  they're an excellent and grounded charity and your very well expressed thoughts,  will be welcomed,  I'd think.

Alec.


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## amandap (25 January 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			amandap,

with your consent,  I shall copy your post and send to to a director of the HSA;  they're an excellent and grounded charity and your very well expressed thoughts,  will be welcomed,  I'd think.

Alec.
		
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Blimey! Yes of course if you think it might help.


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## Happy Horse (25 January 2013)

I think there should be regular, random visits to every slaughterhouse.  I'm talking about each one getting a random visit one or twice a week. No notice, no time to prepare, the inspector can just go in at any time and watch any part of the process.  Any breach of procedure resulting in the immediate suspension of the guilty person and the slaughterhouse having to comply with any investigations as a result.

I don't know whether this would work due to the distance between plants but I feel it would be more effective than a vet on site who as has been said is probably hardly on the floor and who has reason not to find fault with the system.

I do have experience with slaughtermen from my time at the vets and they were all pleasant people with horses of their own.  I think the small more high end operations will probably source a better type of person that the massive commercial places with huge throughput of animals.


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## Louise12 (25 January 2013)

Happy Horse said:



			I think there should be regular, random visits to every slaughterhouse.  I'm talking about each one getting a random visit one or twice a week. No notice, no time to prepare, the inspector can just go in at any time and watch any part of the process.  Any breach of procedure resulting in the immediate suspension of the guilty person and the slaughterhouse having to comply with any investigations as a result.

I don't know whether this would work due to the distance between plants but I feel it would be more effective than a vet on site who as has been said is probably hardly on the floor and who has reason not to find fault with the system.

I do have experience with slaughtermen from my time at the vets and they were all pleasant people with horses of their own.  I think the small more high end operations will probably source a better type of person that the massive commercial places with huge throughput of animals.
		
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Couldn't agree more. Horse meat being commercial, while fine in theory, is clearly not the answer because cruelty occurs in the commercial world of cattle, pigs etc., and, like you, I have had only a positive experience in dealing with an abattoir. Presumably the CCTV will also be watched randomly and not 24/7 as suggested. Just knowing that you are being watched is a huge deterrent to start with, and is a positive first move


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## eahotson (25 January 2013)

You have my suport Alec.


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## MrPotts (25 January 2013)

Tristar, a huge amount of people have said they don't actually care about eating the horse meat, it's the fact that the label said 100% beef that has upset people.


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## YorksG (25 January 2013)

Many years ago I worked in residential care for adolescents. One young man was sent to us from the old fashioned Approved School type establishement. He was a big lad, with a poor history. He was fortunate t obe taken on by our local abbatoir, which also slaughtered horses. This was a family run firm, who looked after the lad. He developed an amazing work ethic, leaving to catch the first bus to work each day. He was concerned about my perception of what he did, knowing that I kept horses. I was pleased to be able to be posisitve about his job and did help him to prepare a horse meat stew, which I then shared with him. 
This small family opperated business changed to a pet crematorium a number of years ago, with a great loss of expertise and knowlege. It is my belief that we need MORE not fewer good slaughterhouses, which also deal with horses, to reduce traveling times and provide a better service for all animals destined for the table.


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## SueD (25 January 2013)

Alec, I too would support any attempts at lobbying you have in mind.
I've only been to Potters, and as previously posted, had nothing but the utmost respect for the professionals working there.

I have no idea of a carcass value for a horse now but appreciate the majority of horseflesh in European butchers is coming from Canada and Mexico following on from the closure of all U.S. slaughter houses so presumably it's worth their while to ship meat across the Atlantic.
Whilst the carcasses originating in the Uk are tagged and serialised, along with the seals on the refrigerated lorries I would be very concerned as to traceability of non UK horsemeat.

Although I'm not much of a meat eater, anything that lives well and dies well should be the maxim.

Let me know if I can be of assistance.


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## Clippy (25 January 2013)

YorksG said:



			It is my belief that we need MORE not fewer good slaughterhouses, which also deal with horses, to reduce traveling times and provide a better service for all animals destined for the table.
		
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I absolutely agree.

Devastating and shocking though the film must have been to watch (not watched by me I might add), we can only look forward now. The times they are a'changin' and for the better too. If you treat animals inhumanely, you're at risk of being exposed. And rightly so


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## millhouse (25 January 2013)

Having read the thread, and your comments Alec, you have my support.


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## tristar (26 January 2013)

mr Potts, you're right, most people interviewed said they were not bothered about the hosemeat content of the burgers, but the incorrect labeling, so are burger king who have cancelled a contract to supply worth 30  million  euros they have with, not sure which, either liffey meats or silvercrest foods, both irish companies, however i don't ever remember seeing horsemeat for sale in the uk in RECENT years, suggesting the demand is not really there, however i could be wrong.

when turners built the abbatoir, about 30 years ago, it cost around 1 million at the time a lot of money, so in some ways it must have been a big money business to justify that sort of outlay, ok times change, but they have certainly had the good times, and anyway, good or bad times financially there is no excuse for handling animals badly, quiet  respectfull handling costs nothing. nothing at all.


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## Alec Swan (26 January 2013)

tristar said:



			......., and anyway, good or bad times financially there is no excuse for handling animals badly, quiet  respectfull handling costs nothing. nothing at all.
		
Click to expand...

And how right you are.  Respect is an expression,  it costs nothing,  at all.  

I admire your stance.

Alec.


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## sybil (26 January 2013)

Alec you also have my full support. I am currently a third year Equine Dental Science Student at Hartpury College and as such I have had to go to Potters/ Stillmans for dissertation data collection. What I saw there and the people who work there could not be further from the videos of Turners and the assumptions people make about the people who work there.

As a lot of people have said, slaughterhouses shouldn't have anything to hide and you are quite right. You would find Potters/Stillmans most welcoming at any time of day, any day of the week and they will happily work around you and answer all your questions with a fabulous pride in what they do. The boys are genuinely lovely people and I am not ashamed to associate with their "type". Potters/Stillmans do also have CCTV installed as a matter of course- something to do with the meat butchered by them coming under a "freedom foods"/ high welfare type of umbrella. The respect they show the animals that come through is wonderful and a credit to them.

I would love to see a reduction in over breeding, a reduction in numbers of unwanted horses and an increase in high welfare abattoirs for horses in this country. After all, travelling horses to the continent for slaughter might eradicate it from our consciousness but it is not without its own welfare implications.


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## amandap (27 January 2013)

After Alec Swan alerted me to the HSA I went on their website and I note that they don't cover the slaughter of horses. I presume this is because horses are not a farmed animal here in UK. So, is there an independent organization researching and campaigning for better procedures for horse slaughter? 
There has been mention that horses don't react like other animals and I can clearly see ones that have had human handling wont and of course they are much more agile than cattle and sheep etc. 

What happens to the horse meat here in UK? I am guessing pet food and export?


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