# Running out of ideas... Suggestions please



## Abi90 (31 May 2016)

I have a very lovely rising 8 year old ISH who is an absolute softie. He's the bravest horse out hacking and often leads the older horses through "spooky" situations. His flat work is coming on nicely and he really really tries and is all round a very nice horse...

BUT...

He is terrified of poles and therefore coloured jumps and despite my best (and the more experienced staff on the yard) we are making next to no progress. We've tried the slowly slowly approach by introducing him to them on foot then on the lunge and then ridden. We've tried the just keep doing them until he realised there isn't an issue approach. Normally by the end of a session he's chilled as anything and plods over them happily. But then here is real catch, as soon as you put him back in the stable/field he seems to forget everything and put a pole in front of him again and he goes back to square one. 

He had an Irish hunter childhood and has done no real schooling so is very green for his age and whilst he has a fantastic leap in him and will take you into a fence in a genuine manner once he settled its a battle to get there. 

This has been on ongoing battle for over 6 months and I don't feel like we are getting anywhere at any rate other than a snails pace. I don't want to give up on him as he is otherwise an absolutely brilliant horse who is coming so nicely in every other way. 

I feel he has been frightened at some point or had a bad experience as its not just an uncertainty it is genuine fear of coloured jumping equipment. 

If anyone has any suggestions or simply words of encouragement then please let me know!


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## Charlie007 (31 May 2016)

Would it be an option to put poles on route to the field so he sees them every day?


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## Pearlsasinger (31 May 2016)

Charlie007 said:



			Would it be an option to put poles on route to the field so he sees them every day?
		
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That is exactly what I would do, the field gateway and as many other points as possible until he becomes comp!merely desensitized and considers them to be everyday objects.


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## Abi90 (31 May 2016)

That is something we haven't tried. It's worth a go.


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## Mari (31 May 2016)

Will he follow another horse, or 2, 3, 4 or more, over the poles both in hand & ridden at walk?  Maybe include a variety of objects eg bending round cones, & TREC style activities such as walking between poles.


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## Slightlyconfused (31 May 2016)

Charlie007 said:



			Would it be an option to put poles on route to the field so he sees them every day?
		
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Pearlsasinger said:



			That is exactly what I would do, the field gateway and as many other points as possible until he becomes comp!merely desensitized and considers them to be everyday objects.
		
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This would be my suggestion. 

Also dot them around his feild too so that they become boring and not worth his energy


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## Abi90 (31 May 2016)

Mari said:



			Will he follow another horse, or 2, 3, 4 or more, over the poles both in hand & ridden at walk?  Maybe include a variety of objects eg bending round cones, & TREC style activities such as walking between poles.
		
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He loves TREC. Very laid back about it. He'll walk between poles as well. It's over than that is an issue!

We're going to do more getting him to follow to prove to him that they won't eat him.


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## shadowboy (1 June 2016)

What's his actual reaction to them? Does he cat-leap; stop or run out?


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## ycbm (1 June 2016)

I wonder if he's been rapped in the past to make him jump poles higher?  Is he even worse if you stand a person at either end of the pole?


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## AdorableAlice (1 June 2016)

I would put a line of poles in front of his stable door, probably not possible if you are not on a private yard sadly.  Then poles on the way to his turnout and sessions of turnout in a school cluttered with poles and wings (cups off)

The fact that he can and will settle in a session but revert to square one immediately after worries me.  Does he have any other sight or nervous issues over anything.  Even the most dim of horses retain their lessons eventually.  Repetition usually works.

I have a nervous and highly suspicious youngster who has taken time to bring on, but once he had been shown something a few times he did absorb and retain the training and we are able to move on, he is a real special needs type.


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## DiamondMartella (1 June 2016)

ycbm said:



			I wonder if he's been rapped in the past to make him jump poles higher?  Is he even worse if you stand a person at either end of the pole?
		
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Along same lines as this. He could have been rapped or taped. 
I have (now my mothers horse) a lovely Irish sports horse who, when faced with going anywhere near, be it over, around within half a meter vicinity of a coloured pole either does a massive spook, shakes, snorts, trembles and has been known to poo herself. I did manage to get her over a fence once, took a lot of firm leg, no contact and she trembled so much and had such bad diarrhea it wasn't fair on her. 

After putting two and two together (this happened three days after she arrived with us) using my brain I decided to take her round the woods over some logs. 

No trembling, no spooking, no poo!! 

She had therefore been rapped. Her complete fear of electric fencing anywhere near her especially if the tape is on the floor gives me a slight feeling she may have been taped too. 

This could be the same for your horse. Maybe you should try what ycbm said with two people standing either side of the coloured pole. 

Also will he jump a coloured pole out of the arena?


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## Luci07 (1 June 2016)

Repetition. As others said, leaving a pole in the doorway of his box, walking him over poles on the way out to the field and make it commonplace. Does work eventually.


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## awolstencroft (1 June 2016)

Hi, just reading through and I was wondering whether you could explain what being taped is?


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## Michen (1 June 2016)

awolstencroft said:



			Hi, just reading through and I was wondering whether you could explain what being taped is?
		
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Rapped. When they hit the horse with the poles as they jump to make them jump higher and cleaner


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## DiamondMartella (1 June 2016)

Taped is where electric fencing is placed above the top pole of the jump, high enough so when the top pole is lifted the electric fencing is still higher. The electric charge is running through the fencing. When the horse goes over the top pole along is lifted as close to the electric fencing as possible so the horse hits the pole, thus getting the force of the electric shock and the wooden pole. Theory behind it is they lift there front feet up higher as they then associated hitting the fence with pain, therefore making more careful jumpers.


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## awolstencroft (1 June 2016)

Oh my word that's terrible! I cant believe people are so hell bent on winning they mistreat their horses! I had heard about rapping before but never a horse being taped...


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## FfionWinnie (1 June 2016)

DiamondMartella said:



			Taped is where electric fencing is placed above the top pole of the jump, high enough so when the top pole is lifted the electric fencing is still higher. The electric charge is running through the fencing. When the horse goes over the top pole along is lifted as close to the electric fencing as possible so the horse hits the pole, thus getting the force of the electric shock and the wooden pole. Theory behind it is they lift there front feet up higher as they then associated hitting the fence with pain, therefore making more careful jumpers.
		
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Surely more likely to trip the horse than achieve anything else.


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## bollybop (1 June 2016)

What's he like with working hunter type poles/xc jumps?

Might be worth getting eye sight checked as well


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## DiamondMartella (1 June 2016)

They hit the leg not the hoof so they don't trip. Occasionally results in a fall but the people that do this are very experienced, they know when to move the pole and slack the fencing.


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## Abi90 (1 June 2016)

bollybop said:



			What's he like with working hunter type poles/xc jumps?

Might be worth getting eye sight checked as well
		
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He's a absolutely fine with XC and working hunter style jumps. Anything "rustic" he considers to be fine. His eyesight was checked not that long ago and is fine.

He did seem to retain some of yesterday's session today and happily and calmly trotted over a very small cross pole even after knocking it quite loudly.


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## Abi90 (1 June 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			The fact that he can and will settle in a session but revert to square one immediately after worries me.  Does he have any other sight or nervous issues over anything.  Even the most dim of horses retain their lessons eventually.  Repetition usually works.
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He's a pretty chilled out guy at everything else in his life. He's not really very spooky at all unless something very unexpected happens (such as a lamb jumping off a steep bit by the side of the road at him and even then his reaction was minimal). He did TREC the other day and after being shown stuff a few times was fine and retained that and will now do the same obstacles against with no issue. 

I am being a bit unfair to say he has gone back to square one every day. When I first got him I could not even walk him over a cross pole in hand. We seem to have conquered that and with me he will walk over them without any fuss, he tries to kick up a stink with others. 

he clearly knows what he is doing as once he settles be takes you into the baby fences quite nicely and sorts his stride out himself. Which is why I think he has had a. As experience as soon as he realises the jump isn't going to hurt him he settles and goes quite nicely.


I think you are right that repetition is the key, he just may need more repetition than some!


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## DiamondMartella (1 June 2016)

Abi90 said:



			He's a absolutely fine with XC and working hunter style jumps. Anything "rustic" he considers to be fine. His eyesight was checked not that long ago and is fine.

He did seem to retain some of yesterday's session today and happily and calmly trotted over a very small cross pole even after knocking it quite loudly.
		
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The mare I have is fine with Rustic but not coloured.

She is a lost cause. However. 

I agree, if hes getting slowly better then repetition, lots of reward when he does go over them and taking slow and easy, keep engaging his brain so he doesn't get bored of it also, and switches off. Once he knows they are not going to eat him and you are not going to cause him discomfort he will come to it. 

Good luck


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## Tyssandi (1 June 2016)

Abi90 said:



			I have a very lovely rising 8 year old ISH who is an absolute softie. He's the bravest horse out hacking and often leads the older horses through "spooky" situations. His flat work is coming on nicely and he really really tries and is all round a very nice horse...

BUT...

He is terrified of poles and therefore coloured jumps and despite my best (and the more experienced staff on the yard) we are making next to no progress. We've tried the slowly slowly approach by introducing him to them on foot then on the lunge and then ridden. We've tried the just keep doing them until he realised there isn't an issue approach. Normally by the end of a session he's chilled as anything and plods over them happily. But then here is real catch, as soon as you put him back in the stable/field he seems to forget everything and put a pole in front of him again and he goes back to square one. 

He had an Irish hunter childhood and has done no real schooling so is very green for his age and whilst he has a fantastic leap in him and will take you into a fence in a genuine manner once he settled its a battle to get there. 

This has been on ongoing battle for over 6 months and I don't feel like we are getting anywhere at any rate other than a snails pace. I don't want to give up on him as he is otherwise an absolutely brilliant horse who is coming so nicely in every other way. 

I feel he has been frightened at some point or had a bad experience as its not just an uncertainty it is genuine fear of coloured jumping equipment. 

If anyone has any suggestions or simply words of encouragement then please let me know!
		
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Sorry for you as my first mare was like this,  we were left to do working hunter and cross country only.  Turned out she  later had uveitis and cataracts and I think the coloured poles were to much but fine with rustic till her vision left her. 

  Have you tried leaving coloured poles and jumps  in his field


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## Abi90 (1 June 2016)

Thank you all for your kind replies. 

I had been a bit unfair to him in my original description as he has improved. His reaction has lessened from "ahhhhhh I'm going to die and have a panic attack and canter around the arena like a madman" to "no, I'm going to have a tantrum and stomp my feet and wiggle my bum around a bit and oh alright I'll go over".

I'm hoping he is not a lost cause as he would make a lovely all rounder as he's great and so genuine at everything else.

ETA: weirdly when he was doing TREC he had no issues with walking over 2 poles sat on a sheet of bright blue tarpaulin... So I don't think it's colour per se


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## Abi90 (1 June 2016)

I would have to ask about poles on his field as he's on a livery yard and. Not sure how they would feel but if you don't ask you don't get!


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## Orainn (1 June 2016)

Would it be an option to give him some time alone (although supervised) in the school after one of your successful sessions? Just ten minutes to himself (loose, tack off) to have a look at the poles and process what he's learnt without anything specific being asked of him. That could help him to retain his progress a little more.


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## Abi90 (1 June 2016)

Orainn said:



			Would it be an option to give him some time alone (although supervised) in the school after one of your successful sessions? Just ten minutes to himself (loose, tack off) to have a look at the poles and process what he's learnt without anything specific being asked of him. That could help him to retain his progress a little more.
		
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Absolutely. That's a good idea.


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## Abi90 (1 June 2016)

DiamondMartella said:



			Along same lines as this. He could have been rapped or taped. 
I have (now my mothers horse) a lovely Irish sports horse who, when faced with going anywhere near, be it over, around within half a meter vicinity of a coloured pole either does a massive spook, shakes, snorts, trembles and has been known to poo herself. I did manage to get her over a fence once, took a lot of firm leg, no contact and she trembled so much and had such bad diarrhea it wasn't fair on her. 

After putting two and two together (this happened three days after she arrived with us) using my brain I decided to take her round the woods over some logs. 

No trembling, no spooking, no poo!! 

She had therefore been rapped. Her complete fear of electric fencing anywhere near her especially if the tape is on the floor gives me a slight feeling she may have been taped too. 

This could be the same for your horse. Maybe you should try what ycbm said with two people standing either side of the coloured pole. 

Also will he jump a coloured pole out of the arena?
		
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Similar reaction but not anywhere near as severe. Same situation as well. I have previously thought he may have been rapped as he has a much bigger reaction if he catches a pole with his feet. Even if another horse catches a pole with its foot he jumps at first. Sound seems to be as much of a stimuli as the pole itself.


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## Tobiano (1 June 2016)

I've not tried this myself but have read that horses need a day or 2 to process what they have learned and one trainer (sorry can't remember who!) gives the horse a couple of days in between trying the same exercise which apparently helps them process the learning. Not sure if you have taken this approach but might be worth a try?  Another option (no experience myself) could be clicker training but I think you may have to start with easier tasks and build up to the poles. He sounds lovely by the way!


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## Abi90 (1 June 2016)

I mean who could give up on this lovely face... Couldn't resist a picture 






q


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## AdorableAlice (1 June 2016)

Those are some serious ears.  Large ears = intelligence, well that is what an old nagsman will tell us.


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## FfionWinnie (1 June 2016)

I think if things are improving just keep plugging on. Take him over poles every day even if you are going hacking after.


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## gunnergundog (1 June 2016)

Firstly, don't assume that all irish horses have been rapped or taped.  

The way (without being rude) that the lower level horses are produced is quite different to how we would produce them over here.  By lower level I mean IDxTB hunter types; ones that are blatantly NOT going to be GP dressage horses, 4* eventers or grade A show-jumpers. The majority of them are jumped on and educated in the hunting field.  They are not schooled and they do not see coloured poles.

I bought a 5 year old IDxTB last year that had just hacked and hunted - never been even ridden on a contact - and was a less extreme version of yours.  Over a hedge or something rustic he looked quite scopey and inspiring; over a coloured cross pole he looked like a sour backward thinking dog.  

He does however have a great attitude to life in general and is a real trier. He won at BE 90 at his first attempt and  is SJing double clear at 1m and will be going BE100 at the end of the month.

You need constant exposure to coloured poles;  you need to build his confidence in you (or whoever his regular jockey is) over rustic/natural fences and introduce coloureds a pole at a time.....in other words, jump a rustic fence and then replace ONE of the rustic poles with a coloured one and build on it. You will probably be able rely on him to take you over rustics, but YOU have to have the confidence to take him over coloureds!  

It is do-able and this is not the first horse I have had with this background by any means.

Good luck!


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## mirage (1 June 2016)

We had a section A that wouldn't jump. He wouldn't cross anything on the ground, poles,electric tape and even the painted lines on the road. We used to make a box shape in his field, out of poles and put his tea in it. He'd walk over it to get his tea,and by the time he left us, would  walk over tape and road markings,but he never would jump.


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## Abi90 (1 June 2016)

Thank you all for your suggestions. I will try them all and see what happens. I will just keep plugging away and try and make poles part of his life every day in some way or another... But keep it varied so he doesn't get bored!


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## samlf (2 June 2016)

Sorry I dont have any suggestions for your horse, looks like you have had some really good advice.

I am interested, however, in the claim that horses can be 'taped' with electric fencing when jumping. It's not scientifically possible to give an electric shock when you arent earthed (eg if the horse is jumping), so I dont understand how this could be achieved?


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## DiamondMartella (2 June 2016)

Its is not a claim. Its a fact, one which I have seen on numerous occasions with my own eyes. The same way in which an electric fence works. There is more too it than just allowing the horse to hit its front legs on the pole and the tape, special boots are used so a shock is felt and a number of other things. Its built in a special arena designed for this for young horses. It is not common practice over here, hence the fact it is not common knowledge in the UK.


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## Abi90 (2 June 2016)

Today we had a mooch around the outdoor where some jumps were up and he even followed me over a few (they were diddy cross poles). Then I let him have a mooch around by himself and he had a bit of a fling and out of nowhere came this most amazing trot... I didn't know he had it in him... Maybe he does want to be a dressage pony


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## FfionWinnie (2 June 2016)

If you stand on one leg and hold an electric fence with two hands you don't get a shock so I too cannot see how it's possible to shock a horse in the manner described in any sort of productive way.  If the horse is off the ground, how can it get a shock, whatever boots it's wearing.


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## Abi90 (2 June 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			If you stand on one leg and hold an electric fence with two hands you don't get a shock so I too cannot see how it's possible to shock a horse in the manner described in any sort of productive way.  If the horse is off the ground, how can it get a shock, whatever boots it's wearing.
		
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I have no idea how it works so this is just a musing but if the tape is touching the fence and the horse catches the fence then for the amount of time it is in contact with the fence then it is earthed through the fence so would still get a shock. 

Also if you're stood on one leg then you would still get a shock as you're still earthed... Unless you have rubber soles which would insulate you preventing the shock.


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## Abi90 (22 June 2016)

Some good news!

Today we jumped a very little course. It was little enough for him to be able to walk up to but by the end of our lesson he was taking himself in trot up to them.

He also seemed to find jumps with proper wings easier to understand than the block type ones.

We took the second fence from the combination that was set up down. Jumped the first and went through the wings. Not only did he happily canter through he also jumped the shadow on the floor!

We've turned a real corner and I'm so happy.

We're trying to keep everything calm and relaxed so keeping everything very small and bringing him back to a walk after every jump so he knows to be relaxed and not to rush.


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## gunnergundog (22 June 2016)

Well done!  Slowly, slowly, catch the monkey as they say!


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## MagicMelon (22 June 2016)

I'd also put poles literally everywhere - in his field, a line of them in the gateway, one lying across his stable entrance, have them dotted around so you are always schooling over and round them etc. so he gets bored to death of them.


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## Abi90 (1 July 2016)

So after last weekend we discovered he will happily jump a course of fences with coloured wings and we're not bothered in the slightest and looked like he enjoyed it.

Took him into the school and he had the same scaredy cat reaction to a jump with block wings.

It makes me wonder, maybe he was rapped over block fences at home and associated fences with proper wings with competitions where they couldn't rap him.

Would he be able to differentiate like that? He's not the brightest but it is weird that wings are fine and blocks are terrifying.


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## Abi90 (2 August 2016)

Update:

Well patience and consistency has paid off. He'll now happily trot and canter over multiple poles and is no longer hesitant into a jump! Is jumping baby grids! And gets rather over excited and starts looking for the next fence... Which is an entirely different problem and looks like his confidence has improved. We're still keeping everything small so his confidence can continue to improve.

I did some research from the info on his passport and it looks like he originally came off a showjumping yard and was not primarily a hunter before he came to the uk (I'm sure he's been!).

So some pics of him looking handsome (although Not actually jumping):








The poles on the floor in this picture would have had him shooting to the other side of the arena when I posted this thread, he will now happily walk, trot and canter over them. 








I apologise for my ugly riding but I'm so pleased with him! He's turning into a very nice little horse


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## Regandal (2 August 2016)

Well done!   Patience will always pay off. He looks like a lovely boy.


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