# To neuter, or not?



## siennamiller (26 December 2015)

Hi,
We have a 2 yr old labradoodle. He is a really fabulous dog. Very handsome, well behaved, and amazing with my boys (6 and 9).





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So, apart from an adolescent stage where he was a bit agressive with other dogs ( never biting, just growling), he's really great. 
Unfortunately, we have someone in our village who walks their bitch in heat, and somehow he managed to escape, and run up the main rd. Luckily someone caught him and brought him back. 
We would really like to breed from him, but would also like an alive dog?
Any advice.


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## JillA (26 December 2015)

Always worth castrating, if not because of the problem of following bitches in season, then to remove the risk of testicular cancer. Why breed from him - bottom line is he is a cross breed.


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## PorkChop (26 December 2015)

Personally, I would neuter unless you can guarantee a secure enclosure for him to go in tbh, just not worth the risk.


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## Bosworth (26 December 2015)

you need to ask yourself 'why do you want to breed' Im sure he is a lovely dog, but he is a cross breed. You dont know what he will throw as he could throw more labrador , or more poodle. Has he been hip/elbow scored as that can be prevalent in labradors, have his eyes been tested as poodles are prone to eye issues. Only breed if you can be 100% sure you will produce totally healthy puppies who all have a good home to go to.


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## Alec Swan (26 December 2015)

He is indeed a handsome dog.  I currently have two bitches and one entire dog in kennels,  and an entire dog who lives in the house.  I have never had a dog castrated,  and wouldn't because it changes the dog and de-masculinates them,  the head becomes more feminine and there is always a degree of muscle wastage.  Just as a gelded horse is obvious and different from an entire horse,  so is a dog.

In your shoes,  if you can't cope with a dog which is entire,  then have him 'done',  but you will most certainly end up with a dog which is different from one which is entire.  Whether you want to breed from your dog is an irrelevance,  the question is,  'Do you want the dog changed'?  If you're unable to prevent your dog from 'escaping',  then rest assured,  castrating a dog doesn't prevent straying.

He is indeed a handsome dog,  and if you wish him to remain so,  I'd leave him as he is,  nadgers included! 

Alec.


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## Dobermonkey (26 December 2015)

Alec, at 2 would his head change that much?  Also wouldn't muscle wastage also depend on diet and exercise?  I've seen some pretty fit bitches with great muscle tone.  Genuinely interested as I have no experience (my 9yr old still has all his kit)


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## JillA (26 December 2015)

I have had most of mine castrated, for the reasons I stated above, all came as rescues over the years so were mature adults. None changed in any way, either physically or in temperament, except for the better. It may be that for working dogs, when they are getting more than enough human direction and physical exercise, entire could be better, especially if they are required to be bold and brave. Pets are rather different.
I have to say, based on several years of behaviour and training consultations, Alec's is the typical male point of view, it was always the husband who objected to a suggestion of it even if there were good behavioural reasons. It is usually called empathy


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## splashgirl45 (26 December 2015)

I have known lots of neutered dogs and as long as they aren't done too early they do not have muscle wastage or head changes or character changes...  once again a male person is unhappy about castration!!!!!!!!        why risk the chance that he could father crossbreed puppies .  I am sure in the next few weeks the rescue centres will be overrun with unwanted dogs and puppies.


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## Alec Swan (26 December 2015)

Dobermonkey said:



			Alec, at 2 would his head change that much?  Also wouldn't muscle wastage also depend on diet and exercise?  I've seen some pretty fit bitches with great muscle tone.  Genuinely interested as I have no experience (my 9yr old still has all his kit)
		
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You raise interesting points.  'Generally' most owners have dogs castrated at the age of about 12 months,  and before the dog is fully developed.  At the age of two years?  Well the skull can't regress in size or shape,  but the air of masculinity and that can only be due to over-skull and jaw muscles,  again 'generally' do seem to fade.  Castrated dogs generally,  just as horses and humans,  take on a rather feminine stance.

The biggest indication to a dog having been castrated is at the tail end of the animal.  Just why a castrated dog should loose muscle bulk,  when it can be in exactly the same daily routine as a dog which is entire,  I can't say,  but I suspect that the reason is that with the castrated animal,  the dog's being has lost some of its purpose and so the animal perhaps doesn't display the same degree of energy that he would,  had he been entire.  Again,  I'm unsure why this should be so.

There's another influence;  early castration (though obviously not in the case of the dog in question),  and just as foals which are gelded early,  so dogs which are cut,  pre-puberty (and humans too!) they all so often reach heights which are beyond what one would have expected.  I know of a whippet which was castrated at about 16 weeks,  and he stands at a full 24" and a labrador which though I haven't measured him,  is an absolute monster!

Regarding 'fit' bitches,  it's testosterone which defines the male.  Generally,  males of any species will display a totally different skeletal and muscular shape and form,  than females.  Masculine bitches?  Now that's an entirely different and equally interesting topic!

Anyway,  that's what I think and though I'm generally unpopular with the 'whip-em-off' brigade,  I believe that my views are as valid as anyone else's! 

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (26 December 2015)

splashgirl45 said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. ...  once again a male person is unhappy about castration!!!!!!!!        why risk the chance that he could father crossbreed puppies .  I am sure in the next few weeks the rescue centres will be overrun with unwanted dogs and puppies.
		
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Once again,  your imagination's running away with you!  I could also (but won't) ask you if you have a dislike of 'anything' male!!   Dogs have no entitlements to testicles or tails,  my argument is and will always be,  the effect upon the animal itself.

I would also wonder if you allow your dog the freedom to roam where it wishes,  and 'marry' where it cares to!  If those with bitches which are in season (there can't be many,  because it seems that everyone wants them speyed),  are silly enough to allow them access to entire dogs,  then neither you nor I are their keepers.

Alec.


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## minesadouble (26 December 2015)

We have an entire 2 year old Hungarian Vizsla. Though we have no intention of using him for breeding purposes I have no desire to see him castrated. He is a lovely dog just as he is - my attitude is if it ain't broke don't try and fix it!
Edited to add I am female but still hate the thought of taking away what nature blessed him with


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## splashgirl45 (26 December 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Once again,  your imagination's running away with you!  I could also (but won't) ask you if you have a dislike of 'anything' male!!   Dogs have no entitlements to testicles or tails,  my argument is and will always be,  the effect upon the animal itself.

I would also wonder if you allow your dog the freedom to roam where it wishes,  and 'marry' where it cares to!  If those with bitches which are in season (there can't be many,  because it seems that everyone wants them speyed),  are silly enough to allow them access to entire dogs,  then neither you nor I are their keepers.

Alec.
		
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well you have asked, and personally am very happy with  males of the human variety!!!!! however not un-neutered  male dogs who want to hump my spayed bitches, and find that this obsession with keeping crossbreed  male dogs entire  very strange....


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## {97702} (26 December 2015)

I'd definitely neuter him - not worth the risk of him going to roam, and it will make absolutely no difference to his looks as long as you continue to feed and manage him properly


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## MotherOfChickens (26 December 2015)

female here-if I ever get another male dog, I won't be castrating him as a matter of course. I like setters and it knackers their coat and ime it affects the adult character. It does in the same way it does with horses and with cats (although there are very good reasons for castrating cats which I can't argue with).


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## Clodagh (26 December 2015)

He is a lovely dog. I wouldn't breed from him, at the end of the day he is a mongrel and there are millions of those already knocking around the rescues.

Recall and obedience is not the same thing as neutered, if escape is an option many a young fit dog will do it, balls or no.


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## ester (26 December 2015)

If you don't then you need to make sure you can keep him in.

I think there are many arguments for not breeding from him, but that doesn't necessarily mean castration.


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## twiggy2 (26 December 2015)

I am not going to get into the arguments above.

I work at a vets and we see many dogs with prostate problems and and a fair few with testicular cancer you pretty much rule out the first and definately rule out the second by having the dog castrated.
If your dog has only ever escaped after an in season bitch it is very unlikely he will still do it once a few weeks has passed after castration, I have always walked my bitches when in season-you cannot keep them on house rest for three plus weeks and I believe that not exercising a bitch in season vastly increases the risk of PYO, When I have a bitch in season it is my responsibility to be sure she cannot escape and get to and entire dog , as the owner of an entire dog it is my belief that it is your responsibility that he cannot escape and/or run off to an entire bitch.
If dogs are castrated before maturity then I do think they do not get the surge of hormones associated with adulthood and therefore do not fully mature mentally or physically, he is a mature dog now so IME this is not a valid point for not castrating.
I also do not understand why anyone breeds any dog currently unless they are a minority breed and they have a waiting list of assessed owners waiting for pups, the rescues are fit to burst with many dogs being PTS daily in the UK.


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## SusieT (26 December 2015)

his head will not change - speak to an educated person e.g. vet regarding neutering .
He looks like a labrador in the pic ? You would want to get him hip, elbow, eye tested before breeding.
If he is other dog aggressive though why would you want to breed that? most dogs are great with the familys kids..


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## PucciNPoni (26 December 2015)

As others have asked, why breed from him?  Is he a particularly "excellent specimen" of his breed type?  Has he been trialled or worked and gained any special merits in those areas in which you wan to pass on to progeny?  Or is he just a lovely chap?  Nothing wrong with having cross breeds which are lovely dogs to live with, but IMHO there are so many out there that are like that - particularly of the cross breed varieties.  I am not against breeding, even cross breeds.  But I think it's really important to consider where the puppies will end up, regardless of whether you have a dog or a bitch.  And it's important to consider what your dog may pass on to progeny, good or bad. 

Apart from that at 2 years old he's already got his personality and his build.  He may gain some weight post neutering but that is all very controllable with correct diet and exercise.  He isn't going to lose muscle mass just because he gets castrated.  He will lose muscle mass if he isn't properly exercised.  Neutering young can make them weedy in appearance.


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## Cinnamontoast (26 December 2015)

My youngsters were neutered at two. The one who humped everything immediately stopped. As yours is interested in females in season and has already run off, I would neuter. It's torture for a dog like that if he's running after in season bitches. 

Testosterone helps the growth plates close, so early neutered dogs/horses will actually be potentially taller than unneutered siblings. 

I would not breed a cross breed, you cannot predict what the pups would be like and I can't see any decent bitch owner wanting to use an unproven cross, especially given he looks like a lab as opposed to a doodle type. Breeding is fine if you want a pup to show, but a pup may be nothing like the sire, especially with cross breeds. It won't be a clone and the bitch may have a huge litter and you will have zero control where they end up as the dog owner. 

The health benefits of either are in the balance, here is a decent study. http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Of the two I have that are neutered, one is a skinny wretch, one is a solid creature with a huge head, neither are vaguely feminine or have muscle wastage! They are correctly exercised and fed lots of protein, and this is what decides a dog's musculature, not the neutering. The huge head one was remarked on as a tiny pup as having a massive head. Conformation and genetics are what gives a dog its head shape. 

Solid creature on left, unneutered equally solid brown thing in the middle, somewhat skinnier black and white but weighs the same as his brother on the right. Black and whites neutered.


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## CAYLA (27 December 2015)

Your dog will not change in personality, it wont need Prozac or become unrecognisable lol I believe what Alec is possibly trying to describe is that when neutered owners tend to allow their dog to pile on the pounds by not reducing food accordingly they tend to lose that toned and muscular look for flab lol also entire males tend to be stressy/hormonally charged and spend more energy following their sexual urges  which in general will allow you to see more pronounced bone and muscle and more often than not they are poorer eaters again no doubt from their raging hormones, I can generally spot an entire male esp terriers (scraggy entires) as I call them lol and I can smell an entire male and the environment it resides (maybe this is because I'm dealing with hundreds of dogs) I have an advantage of seeing entire and castrated in vast numbers so have vast amounts to compare. My castrated males are well muscled because there exercise remained the same and their food reduced accordingly. My castrated deerhound cross is probably in better fettle and more athletically in shape and has more pronounced muscle than our entire deerhound ever had so you can't tell in all. I don't understand how you lost the dog entire or not (but it must be rather stressful for the dog to be constantly following his over whelming need of his over charged hormones) so in fairness I personally would not breed from a mongrel and nor would I allow it to be forever frustrated.....Some people can manage entire dogs some can't, it's as simple as that and then there are those who try to compare their (kennel) dwelling dogs with those living indoors, sorry there is no comparison, your dog is not really a family pet if its a hunting/working dog constantly kept in a kennel and pishing up the bars or cocking their legs freely whilst off lead running on private land rather than up every lamp post they pass on a walk and being kept under lock and key so there frustration is easier to control  just saying, try to keep the comparisons real  also as suggested by the vet bods, if you are unable to detect the smallest change in testicular size or the or mildest symptoms of prostate or testicular cancer you do risk it spreading well before it's detected. You need to decide what you feel is best and you ability to control your entire dog and the health implications either way.


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## ashlingm (27 December 2015)

Neutered dogs live on average 2-3 years longer than un-neutered pets. 

For me, this was the biggest selling point. There are the added health benefits such as reducing and eliminating cancer too, if I can make my dog healthier and live longer then I'm all for it! 

I really don't find that it affects personality too much - unless the aggression which is testosterone or hormone related. We have a neutered male dog and he is a super guard dog - neutering made absolutely no difference to him in that sense. I've fostered dogs (10+) in the past and found that their personality very much stayed the same. We neutered from about a year to about 8 years old (rescue policy). As for the weight comment, we always fed according to their activity level and current weight and thus never had a problem with over weight dogs.


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## ILuvCowparsely (27 December 2015)

siennamiller said:



			Hi,
We have a 2 yr old labradoodle. He is a really fabulous dog. Very handsome, well behaved, and amazing with my boys (6 and 9).





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So, apart from an adolescent stage where he was a bit agressive with other dogs ( never biting, just growling), he's really great. 
Unfortunately, we have someone in our village who walks their bitch in heat, and somehow he managed to escape, and run up the main rd. Luckily someone caught him and brought him back. 
We would really like to breed from him, but would also like an alive dog?
Any advice.
		
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Neuter we were going to breed from out Northern Inuit but there are so many unwanted dogs we had her neutered last week and no regret.  Reduces the risk of cancer too


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## siennamiller (27 December 2015)

Wow! Loads of great advice, thanks &#55357;&#56832;.
Yes, agree with lots of points here. It's me that wants to chop, and husband who doesn't of course! 
With regards to breeding, again, it's husband who wants to, although we have already been asked, he is exceptionally handsome &#55357;&#56860;, photo does not do him justice, but, yes, he is a mongrel.
With regards to behaviour, when I'm out walking him, he is impeccably behaved. I walk him off lead, but he will come back the second I whistle, and sit to be put back on lead.
However, he is definitely getting more anxious, which I did wonder if was down to hormones, he's always been super laid back.
He has a fenced and gated garden, he's obviously found/made a hole, which goes through to the garage next door (currently locked as well, do we haven't found the hole yet as we know he can't get out). We're going to have a look today. 

With regards to the weight, he's prone to being slightly under at the mo, but he's working lab X, so has the lean physique more (I may be talking rubbish, but that's what I have been told).
Will show hubby this, and see if he is more inclined.


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## Nudibranch (27 December 2015)

Just to add my experience - our entire was neutered at 6 (only reason he wasn't done before is that he had absolutely no interest in other dogs, bejng a somewhat nervous mummys boy of a dachshund). We have an entire saluki bitch now though so they had to come off. It has made not a jot of difference to his temperament or appearance. They are inclined to swap muscle for flab due to a lack of testosterone, but as mentioned, correct feeding and exercise will minimise this.
If he's anxious, it'll be doing him a favour


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## Leo Walker (27 December 2015)

Actually if hes anxious it could cause huge problems. The sudden drop in testosterone can make things like that much, much worse. 

Have you thought about getting him an implant? Mine had it as 2.5yr old as we werent sure if his behaviour was mental or physical. It lasted nearly 18 months in him, big whippet size. Its supposed to last 6 months, so probably wont last that long in a bigger dog. It gives you the chance to see if neutering will make a difference and is something you want to do or not. We decided not in the end 

I used to have a really good link that showed the pros and cons in a very balanced way. I cant find it now though typically! Do some reasearch of your own. I found this at the top of a google search, there was lots more info out there, if you can work out which are the reliable sources 

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_24534195/neuter-your-dog-or-not-new-studies-change


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## ILuvCowparsely (27 December 2015)

siennamiller said:



			Wow! Loads of great advice, thanks &#65533;&#65533;.
Yes, agree with lots of points here. It's me that wants to chop, and husband who doesn't of course! 
With regards to breeding, again, it's husband who wants to, although we have already been asked, he is exceptionally handsome &#65533;&#65533;, photo does not do him justice, but, yes, he is a mongrel.
With regards to behaviour, when I'm out walking him, he is impeccably behaved. I walk him off lead, but he will come back the second I whistle, and sit to be put back on lead.
However, he is definitely getting more anxious, which I did wonder if was down to hormones, he's always been super laid back.
He has a fenced and gated garden, he's obviously found/made a hole, which goes through to the garage next door (currently locked as well, do we haven't found the hole yet as we know he can't get out). We're going to have a look today. 

With regards to the weight, he's prone to being slightly under at the mo, but he's working lab X, so has the lean physique more (I may be talking rubbish, but that's what I have been told).
Will show hubby this, and see if he is more inclined.
		
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It was hubby mainly here who wanted to breed to make money, the dog albeit good looking as she is a northern Inuit  has no sense very destructible.  I am not prepared to have 9 puppies to look after clean and take to the vet, hubby would do none of it and me all of it.  That is unfair on me so I cokes him into the  spaying, I can breath a sigh of relief now.

 The idea of 9 + puppies would send me over the edge


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## Cinnamontoast (27 December 2015)

ashlingm said:



			Neutered dogs live on average 2-3 years longer than un-neutered pets. 

For me, this was the biggest selling point. There are the added health benefits such as reducing and eliminating cancer too, if I can make my dog healthier and live longer then I'm all for it! 

I really don't find that it affects personality too much - unless the aggression which is testosterone or hormone related.
		
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Would be interested to see some proof re the lives longer claim, I've yet to see a study on this. 

Re testicular cancer, there are studies aplenty which show that th health benefits are equivalent for both arguments: testicular cancer is only one reason to neuter and is a minuscule percentage. 

Aggression is not necessarily linked to hormones, my extremely DA dog has not changed his behaviour towards other dogs despite being neutered. 

Some interesting points from the study I linked:

On the positive side, neutering male dogs
&#8226; eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
&#8226; reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
&#8226; reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
&#8226; may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs
&#8226; if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
&#8226; increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
&#8226; triples the risk of hypothyroidism
&#8226; increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
&#8226; triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
&#8226; quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
&#8226; doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
&#8226; increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
&#8226; increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations


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## {97702} (27 December 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			Would be interested to see some proof re the lives longer claim, I've yet to see a study on this. 

Re testicular cancer, there are studies aplenty which show that th health benefits are equivalent for both arguments: testicular cancer is only one reason to neuter and is a minuscule percentage. 

Aggression is not necessarily linked to hormones, my extremely DA dog has not changed his behaviour towards other dogs despite being neutered. 

Some interesting points from the study I linked:

On the positive side, neutering male dogs
 eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
 reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
 reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
 may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs
 if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
 increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
 triples the risk of hypothyroidism
 increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
 triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
 quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
 doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
 increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
 increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations
		
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S**t I'd better not show this to my boy..... done at 5 1/2 as soon as he came off the track!


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## Cinnamontoast (27 December 2015)

Hey Lév, you ok? I think, as I mentioned further up, genetics play a large part. Some lines are more prone to certain things and the percentages quoted are very small.

 I always grit my teeth when testicular cancer is mentioned-the numbers are very insignificant and yet it's regularly dragged up as the definitive reason to neuter.


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## {97702} (27 December 2015)

I'm doing surprisingly OK thanks CT   Mainly due to throwing myself into too much dog walking/horse riding/running to occupy myself.... and the odd glass of wine 

I suppose having rescues, where I don't have a choice about neutering, I try not to think about the downsides of it - certainly the last time  I had a lurcher puppy (many years ago) it didn't occur to me to neuter him, he had zero bitch-chasing tendencies etc


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## Fools Motto (27 December 2015)

Surely it must be immensely frustrating for an entire dog to be kept entire, and not be able to 'use himself?'. This would bring on more marking, more chance of becoming disobedient, and aggressive to other male dogs? I only have bitches personally for this very reason and I get them spayed. The world is full of unwanted dogs. And, even if you did breed, perhaps only the once, then surely this would encourage even more 'manly' behaviour?  
I'm sure he would remain the 'same' if he were done, so it's a no-brainer from me!

On a side note, if dog owners blame the 'walking the bitch' as an excuse for their dog running off, then I think you need to re-think. I do, and will continue to walk my girl, when she comes on heat (first and only time as still young). They will still need their exercise.


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## Alec Swan (27 December 2015)

Feeling Merry said:



			Surely it must be immensely frustrating for an entire dog to be kept entire, and not be able to 'use himself?'. This would bring on more marking, more chance of becoming disobedient, and aggressive to other male dogs? &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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You'd think so,  wouldn't you,  but in reality,  the reverse is so often the case.

Alec.


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## Fools Motto (27 December 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			You'd think so,  wouldn't you,  but in reality,  the reverse is so often the case.

Alec.
		
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Someone said to me, it is like a man, who is either not had a girlfriend, or isn't with lady... they want it, but it isn't there to have... so to relieve their desires, they help themselves... natural to us as a human race, but dogs will either hump pillows or human legs, or go wandering, and if that is taken away from them, they often (but agree, probably not with 100%) get cross, and labelled 'difficult'? 
But, as I have never had a male dog, don't have first hand experience, just hear stories...


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## Alec Swan (27 December 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Some interesting points from the study I linked:

On the positive side, neutering male dogs
&#8226; eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
&#8226; reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
&#8226; reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
&#8226; may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs
&#8226; if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
&#8226; increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
&#8226; triples the risk of hypothyroidism
&#8226; increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
&#8226; triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
&#8226; quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
&#8226; doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
&#8226; increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
&#8226; increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations
		
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I saw the same link,  but wonder at its value,  regardless of my stance.  When we talk of single percentages or even fractions,  the figures offered are really an irrelevance.  The risks of the various male-focussed cancers are so few and far between that we can discard the whole argument,  regardless of the direction.  

Without testicles,  all males will go through strident changes,  and weight gain with a loss of muscle definition is all but guaranteed.

A dog which wanders or is aggressive pre-castration will be no different,  and the same can be said for those dogs which would shag a shadow.

It still seems to me that the bulk of those vets who suggest castration of dogs as an answer to any problems will be very well aware of one fact;  Castration will only prevent a dog from siring pups,  and honestly,  that's it.  It's the limit to any benefit.

As for protecting the in-season bitches belonging to others from becoming pregnant,  do those on here of that view,  also castrate their sons to protect the local girls?  The suggestion of responsibility for siring unwanted pups has to be approaching ridiculous! 

Alec.


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## Possum (27 December 2015)

I have a 2 year old entire male dog as a family pet.

He's beautifully behaved with people and other dogs, marks a lot but that wouldn't change with neutering at his age. He doesn't 'hump' anything, make any attempt at roaming or escaping and unless you had a feel you wouldn't know.

IMO the marginal potential health benefits of neutering are outweighed by the negatives - obviously the operation required, the fact it takes away the option that I might be able to show him at a later date and the likelihood that it would ruin his coat.

I've always had bitches spayed, but definitely believe in deciding for the boys on a dog-by-dog basis.


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## Alec Swan (27 December 2015)

Feeling Merry said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. Someone said to me, &#8230;&#8230;..
But, as I have never had a male dog, don't have first hand experience, just hear stories...
		
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Someone said to you &#8230;.. were I you,  I'd ignore them!   If a dog is given to humping pillows or human legs,  he will continue doing that,  regardless of the supply of,  or lack of,  accommodating bitches.  Some of the very best behaved dogs (in that department),  are the experienced stud dogs,  even though they may go a year or more between coverings.  It's also true that the air-humpers continue after castration,  and sometimes for ever,  because testosterone isn't just produced from testicles.

Alec.


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## Clodagh (27 December 2015)

Our terriers were all entire, tbf only one lived in the house the rest were kennelled but they never humped anything, yes they cocked their legs out on walks but sdon't all dogs? (I have never had a neutered male!).
Our 7 year old spayed bitch humps the air when she meets her favourite dog (he is entire) so what should I do with her?


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## madmav (27 December 2015)

A veteran old man of this house had his whipped off when he was 6 months, I thought it would help with his mentally mad behaviour. Didn't sort that at all. But he is now 15 and still going strong. Not mental any more, old age finally sorted that. He was the one you shouldn't get, runt of the litter, but he also has defied that piece of advice.
I would always castrate unless you're in the dog breeding business. Seems a much better outcome for everyone.


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## Alec Swan (27 December 2015)

Clodagh said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Our 7 year old spayed bitch humps the air when she meets her favourite dog (he is entire) so what should I do with her?
		
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Remove a pair of suitably shaped Christmas decorations,  from your tree and then tape them to the underside of her dock.

Alec.


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## siennamiller (27 December 2015)

I should add, he does not hump anything, and only marks when out walking off the lead. He has gone through his adolescent phase with other dogs, and is very well behaved. He's a really lovely dog, just seems a bit anxious sometimes, but I blame husband for that too! Does not lead him (as in be in charge), so I think the dog worries that he has to look after him.


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## Leo Walker (27 December 2015)

Feeling Merry said:



			Surely it must be immensely frustrating for an entire dog to be kept entire, and not be able to 'use himself?'. This would bring on more marking, more chance of becoming disobedient, and aggressive to other male dogs?
		
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Not in my case. He is a very lovely sunny natured dog anyway, but as someone who has had him entire, then neutered to all intents and purposes then entire again, hes never shown any interest in bitches, rabbits, hell yeah! bitches, nope  The reason he was chemically castrated is he started weeing when we left him alone, hence us thinking it might be a testosterone problem. Turns out it was just the last remnants of an horrific separation anxiety which we thought we had dealt with a young dog, but resurfaced, brought on by a huge change in house/area/lifestyle. It hasnt resurfaced since hes more settled and the implant ran out. 

Interestingly he got more ar*ey with other dogs when the implant was in effect, but that seems to have been caused by the implant effectively neutering him and other dogs picking fights with him, not that hes ever cared either way  The one thing I will say, is that when hes stressed, he always has and probably always will hump cushions or his beloved fluffy toys. He tried it with the cat once, never tried it again :lol: Its not a sexual behaviour, its when something unsettles him, and he trots off and air humps a cushion. Very, very rarely happens, but he did it with and without the implant


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## Leo Walker (27 December 2015)

siennamiller said:



			I should add, he does not hump anything, and only marks when out walking off the lead. He has gone through his adolescent phase with other dogs, and is very well behaved. He's a really lovely dog, just seems a bit anxious sometimes, but I blame husband for that too! Does not lead him (as in be in charge), so I think the dog worries that he has to look after him.
		
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Please think very long and hard about neutering, and do your research on what can happen. The sudden drop in testosterone can cause huge problems with a dog thats a bit prone to anxiety for whatever reason. It reads like the only reason you want to neuter him as he got out, presumably chasing after bitches. Can you not secure him so he cant do that? And look into the implant. If it works, then go for neutering when it runs out, if it doesnt then you know theres other issues


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## ashlingm (27 December 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			Would be interested to see some proof re the lives longer claim, I've yet to see a study on this.
		
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The University of Georgia published a paper supporting this. It's called "do spayed and neutered dogs live longer?" or something along those lines. I can root it out and forward it on if you are interested?

I did a quick scan on veterinary journals and came across this - 
"Looking at a sample of 40,139 death records from the Veterinary Medical Database from 1984-2004, researchers determined the average age at death for intact dogs -- dogs that had not been spayed or neutered -- was 7.9 years versus 9.4 years for sterilized dogs. The results of the study were published April 17 in PLOS ONE.


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## Emilieu (27 December 2015)

Our dog marked all over the house and humped everything. I kept reading that neutering might not actually change that so kept putting off having it done. Eventually we couldn't cope with the marking and went for it. He has never marked anything since and no longer humps pillows etc. So glad we did it. Roaming wasn't an issue for us but i can see why that would push you towards the decision. 
It worked for us.


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## Cinnamontoast (27 December 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Without testicles,  all males will go through strident changes,  and weight gain with a loss of muscle definition is all but guaranteed.
		
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But that simply isn't true, Alec. Look at the pic I put of my three. B/w spanner on the left is cut, look at the muscle definition. He is a solid lump of muscle, in serious danger of knocking me flying currently. He swims, runs, is fed a raw diet and is not fat unless I over feed him. His brother is equally muscled and very carefully exercised/monitored due to the dysplasia.




			As for protecting the in-season bitches belonging to others from becoming pregnant,  do those on here of that view,  also castrate their sons to protect the local girls?  The suggestion of responsibility for siring unwanted pups has to be approaching ridiculous! 

Alec.
		
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Crikey, Alec, one would hope that the humans would have half a brain and not run after girls in the way a testosterone fuelled dog would! You do say some odd things! Humans (most, thank god) have self control. Dogs do not, the urge to procreate is overwhelming. 



ashlingm said:



			The University of Georgia published a paper supporting this. It's called "do spayed and neutered dogs live longer?" or something along those lines. I can root it out and forward it on if you are interested?

I did a quick scan on veterinary journals and came across this - 
"Looking at a sample of 40,139 death records from the Veterinary Medical Database from 1984-2004, researchers determined the average age at death for intact dogs -- dogs that had not been spayed or neutered -- was 7.9 years versus 9.4 years for sterilized dogs. The results of the study were published April 17 in PLOS ONE.
		
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That would be good, thanks. Trouble is, one needs to look at environmental factors, care throughout the dog's life and manner of death to see if there are direct links. As a crazy 'food is all important' for dogs fiend, that would be my first port of call when looking at length of life, not so much whether a dog is neutered. Did the study include bitches or just dogs, do you know?


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## Pearlsasinger (28 December 2015)

Feeling Merry said:



			Surely it must be immensely frustrating for an entire dog to be kept entire, and not be able to 'use himself?'. This would bring on more marking, more chance of becoming disobedient, and aggressive to other male dogs? I only have bitches personally for this very reason and I get them spayed. The world is full of unwanted dogs. And, even if you did breed, perhaps only the once, then surely this would encourage even more 'manly' behaviour?  
I'm sure he would remain the 'same' if he were done, so it's a no-brainer from me!

On a side note, if dog owners blame the 'walking the bitch' as an excuse for their dog running off, then I think you need to re-think. I do, and will continue to walk my girl, when she comes on heat (first and only time as still young). They will still need their exercise.
		
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We have had several Labrador dogs and bitches, all of which were entire.  Some were escape artists, others weren't.  The answer is not to neuter but to make your garden escape proof.  We have always beeen careful where we walk in-season bitches, as we don't want dogs following us home, if thier irresponsible owners allow them out unaccompanied.
n.b.  We did consider spaying our (current) Rottweiler bitches, for various reasons until I read that American research shows that spayed bitches have a higher incidence of cancer than entires.

I wouldn't want to breed from a 'Labradoodle', as you have no real clue as to what the pups will be.  OP's dog is very handsome though!


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## planete (28 December 2015)

I totally agree with the view that if your dog, or any dog, can escape from your premises, you first need to make them escape proof.  A far better use of money than inflicting an unnecessary major operation on a happy, well-behaved dog.

I have kept several of my male dogs intact over the years and not one of them has marked indoors, humped, been aggressive, run off or suffered health problems that could be even remotely linked to not being neutered.  Perhaps I have been lucky but I cannot see how I could have justified castrating them.


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## Alec Swan (28 December 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Crikey, Alec, one would hope that the humans would have half a brain and not run after girls in the way a testosterone fuelled dog would! You do say some odd things! Humans (most, thank god) have self control. Dogs do not, the urge to procreate is overwhelming. 

&#8230;&#8230;..
		
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It was a tongue-in-cheek comment,  and was followed by a smilie,  as is this! 

Testosterone fuelled young males,  be they two legged or four,  generally have only one thing on their minds,  from memory! 

Alec.


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## Katikins (28 December 2015)

FrankieCob said:



			Not in my case. He is a very lovely sunny natured dog anyway, but as someone who has had him entire, then neutered to all intents and purposes then entire again, hes never shown any interest in bitches, rabbits, hell yeah! bitches, nope  The reason he was chemically castrated is he started weeing when we left him alone, hence us thinking it might be a testosterone problem. Turns out it was just the last remnants of an horrific separation anxiety which we thought we had dealt with a young dog, but resurfaced, brought on by a huge change in house/area/lifestyle. It hasnt resurfaced since hes more settled and the implant ran out. 

Interestingly he got more ar*ey with other dogs when the implant was in effect, but that seems to have been caused by the implant effectively neutering him and other dogs picking fights with him, not that hes ever cared either way  The one thing I will say, is that when hes stressed, he always has and probably always will hump cushions or his beloved fluffy toys. He tried it with the cat once, never tried it again :lol: Its not a sexual behaviour, its when something unsettles him, and he trots off and air humps a cushion. Very, very rarely happens, but he did it with and without the implant
		
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Really interesting to read this as we opted for the implant for our 1.5 year old whippet male about 6 weeks ago.  He's a total mummy's boy and gets separation anxiety and started peeing on the table legs etc at home as well as being destructive.  He has calmed down a lot now the implant is fully working but there was about a week where he got really ars*y with other dogs too.  We will see how things go before making a decision on whether to make it permanent - but he also has excellent recall and actually recalled perfectly this weekend from an in-heat bitch so I'm less worried about that side of things.

It is always worth looking at other factors as well as I'm 6 months pregnant and we are aware that this could have an impact on his behaviour.  

Interestingly I was also totally pro neutering (still am for females and our whippet bitch is done) but over here (Netherlands) the standard vet advice is NOT to castrate males unless there is a valid medical/behavourial reason.  Hence why our vet suggested the implant so we could actually see if lower testosterone would actually help the behaviour and hopefully get him to chill out a bit more.  I think he's also put on a little bit of weight since we got the implant in but that is definitely a good thing as he's leaner than I would ideally like (and I prefer my animals lean than fat).

This is a picture from Christmas Day, he's looking a little less lean here due to the way his body is bent but you get the gist.


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## PucciNPoni (28 December 2015)

planete said:



			I totally agree with the view that if your dog, or any dog, can escape from your premises, you first need to make them escape proof.  A far better use of money than inflicting an unnecessary major operation on a happy, well-behaved dog.

I have kept several of my male dogs intact over the years and not one of them has marked indoors, humped, been aggressive, run off or suffered health problems that could be even remotely linked to not being neutered.  Perhaps I have been lucky but I cannot see how I could have justified castrating them.
		
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It's a bit of a cultural thing too - in the US many pets are neutered as a matter of course.  Found it really interesting when I first moved here how many entire pets there were.  Many people in certain countries round Europe keep stallions for riding horses, and never bred from and treat them like other horses.  While here in the UK it's almost unheard of. 

It comes down to how a person manages their animals, whether they keep a mixed pack of males and females and whether or not they are particularly useful at training them.  In my line of work, I see so many untrained badly behaved pets  - and while I don't recommend neutering in place of TRAINING, I do think that sometimes that neutering can at least help some folk get on the right track for training once the hormones aren't running amok.  But then I think some PEOPLE need neutered, but that's a whole other story...


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## Leo Walker (28 December 2015)

Katikins said:



			Really interesting to read this as we opted for the implant for our 1.5 year old whippet male about 6 weeks ago.  He's a total mummy's boy and gets separation anxiety and started peeing on the table legs etc at home as well as being destructive.  He has calmed down a lot now the implant is fully working but there was about a week where he got really ars*y with other dogs too.  We will see how things go before making a decision on whether to make it permanent - but he also has excellent recall and actually recalled perfectly this weekend from an in-heat bitch so I'm less worried about that side of things.

It is always worth looking at other factors as well as I'm 6 months pregnant and we are aware that this could have an impact on his behaviour.  

Interestingly I was also totally pro neutering (still am for females and our whippet bitch is done) but over here (Netherlands) the standard vet advice is NOT to castrate males unless there is a valid medical/behavourial reason.  Hence why our vet suggested the implant so we could actually see if lower testosterone would actually help the behaviour and hopefully get him to chill out a bit more.  I think he's also put on a little bit of weight since we got the implant in but that is definitely a good thing as he's leaner than I would ideally like (and I prefer my animals lean than fat).
		
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Mine sounds very similar to yours. Adores me, spoilt, and a bit of a drama queen princess. All the negative behaviours stopped about 2 months into having the implant and havent resurfaced. Not sure why, other than it probably broke the cycle.

I forgot that mine actually got a bit chubby and we had to cut his food right back. When the implant ran out he lost an alarming amount of weight, and is back on the ridiculous portions he always had.


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## Alec Swan (28 December 2015)

I would be very concerned at our usage of 'implants' as a way of controlling our dogs behaviour,  natural instincts or demeanour.  

When ever we stick a needle into an animal,  there's a price to pay, and to reinforce the point,  I understand that the trainer Paul Nichols (presumably upon veterinary advice) has brought forward his annual vaccinating regime and with disastrous consequences.  

Not all veterinary advice should be taken as gospel.

Alec.


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## Dobermonkey (28 December 2015)

I personally think they have their place when people are 'strongly advised' to neuter for behavioural 'issues which could actually cause more problems.   The suprelorin  implant stops testosterone production whereas the tardak injection mimics female hormones (from what I have read up on).   I do not think it is right to use them as a substitute for training or responsible ownership


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## StableMum (28 December 2015)

My dog is nearly six and entire. I had intended to get him castrated but he has never been any trouble and I am very aware that a general anaesthetic is not without risk.     However I did worry that people might  judge me for not doing the 'right thing' (he's not purebred). My daughter is a vet and the other day put my mind at rest by saying that as my boy is sensitive,  he needs his bits for bravery! It would do him no good to loose the testosterone and he could become anxious.
So I'm quite  happy with my decision to leave well alone. I would hate to do something to him that would cause him to be less happy than he is now.


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## Cinnamontoast (28 December 2015)

I was told that the implant (one of the two, sorry, can't remember which) brings about a greatly increased risk of testicular cancer later in life, hence I didn't go for it when considering how to help Zak's behaviour.

My 12 year old entire boy has never evinced the slightest interest in bitches and I never considered neutering him. I don't think the benefits are convincing enough.


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## Dobermonkey (28 December 2015)

Suprelorin is the implant. Tardak the injection.  The implant stops testosterone and their bobbies actually shrink.  My boy is 9 with all his bits.  He's never been overly interested in the ladies bar the odd 'happy hump' when he's super excited playing with his friends.


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## Leo Walker (28 December 2015)

It does it you continually use it, as it stops all testosterone, and their bits literally shrivel. The boy is sporting a fine pair again now though :lol:


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## brighteyes (29 December 2015)

This anti-neutering of male dogs seems commonplace among human males. I disagree with keeping them entire unless they are valuable specimens and useful studs. How awful  for them to be fully functioning males and unable to act on the instincts. That to me is cruel.


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## planete (29 December 2015)

brighteyes said:



			This anti-neutering of male dogs seems commonplace among human males. I disagree with keeping them entire unless they are valuable specimens and useful studs. How awful  for them to be fully functioning males and unable to act on the instincts. That to me is cruel.
		
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Well, I am definitely female and none of my dogs have looked remotely distressed even when they have met in season females.  Interested but quickly reminded of their manners and moved on willingly enough.  What I sometimes think is that some women are so used to male dogs without their bits they experience a 'yuk!' reaction when they see a pair dangling between a dog' s hind legs!


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## MurphysMinder (29 December 2015)

brighteyes said:



			This anti-neutering of male dogs seems commonplace among human males. I disagree with keeping them entire unless they are valuable specimens and useful studs. How awful  for them to be fully functioning males and unable to act on the instincts. That to me is cruel.
		
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We currently have a castrated male, but I have kept entire males in the past.  I think with male dogs I would probably weigh up the particular dog before castrating,  i would however always spay a female .  I do agree that males of the human species do seem to be particularly sensitive regarding castration.  I once did a home check for a rescue when the man of the house said he would happily take a bitch to be spayed but if he had a male it would have to stay entire as he "couldn't put a dog of his through that".  So fairly major surgery is fine but a far simpler procedure is not?


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## PucciNPoni (29 December 2015)

planete said:



			Well, I am definitely female and none of my dogs have looked remotely distressed even when they have met in season females.  Interested but quickly reminded of their manners and moved on willingly enough.  What I sometimes think is that some women are so used to male dogs without their bits they experience a 'yuk!' reaction when they see a pair dangling between a dog' s hind legs!
		
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I certainly have handled many a dog and bitch which were entire.  I'm not particularly squeamish when it comes to a pair of normal testicles but I certainly am averse to a dog dry humping my arm because there has been a bitch in season in the salon.  Oh, and a pair of aged testicles which hang down to the dog's hocks?  Yeah, not pretty and certainly not fun to try to clip around. 

I think too that men are more squeamish about a fruity bitch's bodily functions but never even notice smegma.  What's up with that?


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## planete (29 December 2015)

Well, dangling down to the hocks certainly sounds a miserable sight.  I cannot say I have observed this phenomenon yet but  ok, yuk!


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## Molly'sMama (29 December 2015)

brighteyes said:



			This anti-neutering of male dogs seems commonplace among human males. I disagree with keeping them entire unless they are valuable specimens and useful studs. How awful  for them to be fully functioning males and unable to act on the instincts. That to me is cruel.
		
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that was our thinking, really. He's a beautiful dog but we're not going to breed from him and it made US nervous every time he was off the lead on walks, because other idiots take their females out in heat [honest to god that really happened- one woman literally said 'Oh, she's in heat that;s probably why he's sniffing.' hello?????] and then we would have to put him on the lead and drag him away for something natural, like it was a punishment.. anyway, we're all happier now he's been done- he can play as much as he wants and although he never humped habitually; he never once tried it on a person,  he's never again tried to do it to other bitches or dogs so that worry's gone


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## SusieT (29 December 2015)

If your entire male is out off lead I don't understand why you complain that bitch owners take their in heat bitches out - it is unfair to expect in heat bitches to be confined to a house because you can't control your male. I would keep an in heat bitch on a lead myself but entire males have no more right than entire females to be walked


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## PucciNPoni (30 December 2015)

SusieT said:



			If your entire male is out off lead I don't understand why you complain that bitch owners take their in heat bitches out - it is unfair to expect in heat bitches to be confined to a house because you can't control your male. I would keep an in heat bitch on a lead myself but entire males have no more right than entire females to be walked
		
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That was my thoughts, exactly


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## Sandstone1 (30 December 2015)

I find it strange that some people are unwilling to castrate a male dog because it changes them physically.
They are happy however to dock tails!
They may also say that it changes their personality. Docking does this as the dog is unable to use its tail to express itself properly.
People are also saying how stupid and irresponsible people walk in season bitches when they are quite happy to free run entire males!
There seems quite a lot of double standards.


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## Alec Swan (30 December 2015)

selinas spirit said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

People are also saying how stupid and irresponsible people walk in season bitches when they are quite happy to free run entire males!
There seems quite a lot of double standards.
		
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And some stand by their statements.  I keep dogs and bitches and I wouldn't dream of allowing an in season bitch to have access to dogs and run the risk of having to abort puppies.  If I have a bitch which is in season,  then she is MY responsibility,  and NOT that of a random stranger who's taking their entire dog for a walk.  

I shoot in organised groups and I wouldn't dream of taking an in-season bitch with me on a day's shooting and expect others to be responsible for their dogs.  If on those days when I organise shooting,  on the very rare occasion when entire dogs are showing more than a passing interest in a bitch,  then the owner of the bitch is asked if they can leave her in their car,  rather than disrupt the day.

The responsibility for in-season bitches lays squarely with the owner.  I fail to see the logic of someone,  aware that they have a bitch which is at risk,  and expecting others to be aware of that or worse still,  to consider that entire males should be castrated to absolve them from responsibility.  

Alec.


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## Sandstone1 (30 December 2015)

Obviously, it's the responsibility of the owner not to allow a in season bitch to have access to other dogs.
My point is that people are complaining about people walking in season bitches because it upsets their entire male dogs. 
It's a bit hypocritical in my opinion when a bitch is really only at risk for approx 3 weeks twice a year, yet a entire male is always up for it and if allowed will escape and wander off if he can smell a bitch. 
In a ideal world no one will allow either sex to wander, in reality it happens.


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## Alec Swan (30 December 2015)

selinas spirit said:



			Obviously, it's the responsibility of the owner not to allow a in season bitch to have access to other dogs.
&#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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Thank you! 

Alec.


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## Fools Motto (30 December 2015)

But the bitch still needs walking, so being responsible will be walked on lead. This still doesn't stop entire males showing interest? Some owners will let their males 'great' bitches despite stating the obvious. 
As for shooting, any 'normal' person will not take their in season bitch out! (that is one advantage of having dogs!!)


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## Sandstone1 (30 December 2015)

Feeling Merry said:



			But the bitch still needs walking, so being responsible will be walked on lead. This still doesn't stop entire males showing interest? Some owners will let their males 'great' bitches despite stating the obvious. 
As for shooting, any 'normal' person will not take their in season bitch out! (that is one advantage of having dogs!!)
		
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This is my point, I have no problem with people walking in season bitches on lead in quiet places. I do however have a problem with people letting entire males run up to my bitch (spayed) and start humping her.
It's the responsibility of all owners to have control of their dogs. Neutered or not. Sadly it doesn't happen all the time.
Why people even think of breeding cross bred pups I don't know.


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## twiggy2 (30 December 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			If I have a bitch which is in season,  then she is MY responsibility,  and NOT that of a random stranger who's taking their entire dog for a walk.
		
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for me it is far more simple, dog/bitch/entire or not as the owner/trainer of dogs if they are in my care they are my responsibility.
I always exercise my bitches if they are in season in fact they get more time being exercised as they are kept on lead (unless I have access to secure areas) until I understand each bitches season cycle, my last entire bitch had 3 days where she was deaf to all commands due to the hormones that told her to follow the drive to mate. Apart from that she was her normal self and not interested in males.
I don't have a desire to see every male dog castrated but I think people have to view how entire dogs fit into some family homes, some dogs are just easier to live with and be around once they have been castrated.
If a dog is capable of breeding the owner needs to make sure it does not happen unless it is a planned mating, if they don't want that worry then the dog needs to be nuetered


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## siennamiller (30 December 2015)

SusieT said:



			If your entire male is out off lead I don't understand why you complain that bitch owners take their in heat bitches out - it is unfair to expect in heat bitches to be confined to a house because you can't control your male. I would keep an in heat bitch on a lead myself but entire males have no more right than entire females to be walked
		
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Um, I didn't actually complain about it, I said that might be why he escaped, he wasn't off lead, he managed to escape out of a gated, fenced garden, through a new hole. 
He is under control when walked, and when off lead is always within my eyesight, and completely under control, if I whistle then he returns immediately, which I do whenever we see another dog, he is then put back on the lead to pass the other dog. 

This was a post asking for advice about whether to neuter, it wasn't a post complaining about female dogs in heat.
I am the first to admit, I don't have a huge amount of experience with dogs, but was always told that females in heat should be kept in, I was obviously given the wrong information.


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