# Barefoot but very flat footed...should i re-shod?



## CPR (10 April 2010)

My horse is 13year, Clydesdale X who had a tendon issues over 8 years ago and was diagnosed with arthritis over year a go. His shoes were removed after finding out about his arthritis and after several long months of care and hard work he became sound; much to the surprise of everyone who said that he would never be ridden/driven again.

However recently after moving to a new yard, new farrier and a slight increase of road work he became lame on his front. The vet has checked and his joints and arthritis and says he is fine, the farrier has looked for an abscess which no joy, but he is still lame. Everyone is telling be to but shoes back on him, but I have seen such an improvement of him being barefoot with his arthritis that I would like to keep him this way. However he is very flat footed at the front, and is weight bearing purely on the sole and frog, which is causing bruising on stones (which he has to walk on to be turned out/brought in) and which cannot be good for his joints. I have got him some size 8 boa boots (the only boots that i could get to fit his dinner plate size feet, which he wears when exercising (currently only in hand due to being foot sore). I am really torn in what to do, I know that shoes will be a short term fix, by raising his frog and sole off the ground, however I would prefer to keep him barefoot. I so wish I just ask him (the horse) what I should and what he wants.

In case it helps is feed formula for feet with dengie good dooer chaff with supplements for his joints and stuff like garlic in the summer...

Please can you offer any advice on what I should do? Is there any hope of such a large, flat footed, horse remaining barefoot or should I just admit defeat and have him shod again?

Sorry for the long winded babble

Thanks X


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## Bennions Field (11 April 2010)

hi, I have a 16.3 warmblood x  who too went barefoot to help his artritus, that was 3 years ago now and he's 19 now, he's worn shoes since he was 4, he was 'sore/footy' on and off for approx 6-12 months, he's was also fairly flat footed and also 'felt' every stone on his way to the field, I persevered, wore boots when needed and kept at it, he eventually grew 'calluses (not sure on spelling! ) he also raised his own sole off the ground and now has a massive frog, so he walks on the walls and frog as he should do.
I now have a happier horse in general, ok, he still does tread on the odd large stone and is possibly sore for 2-3 minutes and very rarely bruises his foot, but no more than he did with shoes.  He seems to have settled finally, he's much better on his knees, and positively floats across the ground again, so it was worth it.  
Is you farrier 'switched on' to barefooot or is he against, my old one was against, new one is neither for or against but really works with me/horse to help, he has commented on how good his feet are now, he contstantly also tended to overreach and remove shoes so his feet looked full of holes so there are additional benefits.  You're feeding a good hoof suplement so cant do more there, try using the boots to and from the field, and if its wet allow his feet to dry out from time to time, this helps, it allows them to harded off again, 

best of luck, but dont let him suffer, have you tried other types of shoes other than metal ones ? Imprint shoes are not so bad for concussion, it might be worth speaking to other vets/farriers ?


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## Twirly (11 April 2010)

Um I hate to say it but if it's not arthritis related and he was coping before it's either the change in environment or your farrier is not trimming him right.

If the increase in road work has been steady he should have taken it in his stride if he was already conditioned to it.

If going barefoot had made my horse sound against the odds there isn't a cat's chance in hell I'd put metal shoes on again. Boots and pads are a great solution and maybe speak to your farrier, a more pro-barefoot farrier who is used to keeping unshod horses in work rather than overtrimming for a pasture trim or a shoe prep trim...or if finances allow (cheaper than going back to being shod) get a properly qualified barefoot trimmer to take him on. There are some very very good ones and some rubbish ones, same as with all walks of equestrian professional so do your homework and get opinions.

I've had barefoot working horses for 10 years, in that time and with four horses only two farriers could keep them barefoot and road sound, the others made them sore. Have since moved to barefoot trimmers, one great EP one EP who helped permanently lame one of my horses and one UKNHCP who is doing a brilliant job with my youngsters

Good luck


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## mrdarcy (11 April 2010)

I agree with the other posters - barefoot has clearly worked well for him so far. Flat soles are nothing to do with breed, type or size of horse and it's incorrect to say that if a horse has flat soles he will always have flat soles. The concavity of sole is not a static thing and concavity will develop over time with the right diet and correct environment. Even the flatest footed horses will develop great concavity given a chance - people find this hard to believe but it's seen over and over again. There are some working Percherons in the US trimmed by Peter Ramey who all have fab feet, with lots of concavity who work on hard surfaces and work many miles every day.

You say his footiness only started when you moved to a new yard - so something in this move has caused the footiness. Either he has access to more or richer grass (plus the spring grass is coming through with will flatten soles and make previously sound horses footy) and/or the new farrier is taking too much off when he trims. As has already been asked is this new farrier knowledgeable about barefoot trimming? Is he leaving the sole callous or removing it (very common)? Talk to your farrier and try and get an idea of how many performance barefoot horses he trims regularly. If you want a second opinion get either a barefoot trimmer who knows what they're doing or a barefoot pro-farrier to have a look. Depending on what the grass is like at the new yard you could try restricting his grazing - either out at night and in during the day or into a starvation paddock. I would also relook at his diet - Dengie Good Doer does contain molasses which we advise to avoid. Unfortunately Dengie don't publish the sugar or starch %'s in Good Doer - you could try ringing and asking them but basically you want the combined percentage to be 10% or less. There are non-molassed chaffs around that you could switch him onto.

I'd also be tempted to remove the garlic. There is some discussion whether garlic can affect the ability to break down sugars - the last thing you need in a barefoot horse. Glucosomine is conta-indicated for insulin resistant horses - not saying he is IR but glucosomine is something I stopped giving my barefoot horses - instead I use rosehips.

In the meantime now he has boots keep working him in those. You can get pads for the inside of the boots if he is still a little uncomfortable. But do try to switch between working him in boots and bare - as if you always work in boots the sole callous will never build up.


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## Caledonia (11 April 2010)

I suspect the clue is in the increase in roadwork........... put shoes back on him. Lots of horses cope shoeless without much work, but an increase of wear on the feet will hurt them.


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## saalsk (11 April 2010)

Lots of barefoot horses become a little sore when the weather suddenly changes and the ground goes from muddy/wet/soft to dry/stony quite quickly. Their hooves can take a little while to adjust. Shoes are always an option, but rest, reducing roadwork for a short period of time and boots can all help. Don't do anything rash yet - if you put shoes back on then any change in his foot shape will be negated when the farrier prepares the foot for shoeing. Perhaps have a think about getting him checked by an equine podiatrist or barefoot specialist trimmer to get another opinion before you make a decision.
Good luck.


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## Caledonia (11 April 2010)

Sorry, but if your horse is sore, then the most important step is to stop the pain. This horse is a Clydesdale cross, and his breeding indicates he will be predisposed to flat feet. It's utter nonsense that the domesticated horses will all cope with a workload without shoes. 
Leaving a horse sore to indulge a school of thought is nothing short of barbaric.


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## soloequestrian (11 April 2010)

I've just been reading a lot of Pete Ramey and Jaime Jackson's stuff about barefoot and it's fascinating.  If you google Pete Ramey you can get many of his articles on line, and they both have books out.
My mare recently had shoes on for a while after an operation.  She had been barefoot for 8 years before the op (the two things aren't connected!) and so I've got very used to seeing bare feet.  I was shocked at the difference between the way her feet normally are with me and a barefoot trimmer looking after them - the shape was very different and I think it will take her a while to regain her full barefoot strength.  If you can find a good barefoot trimmer I would highly recommend that route - unless your farrier is open to the whole barefoot thing, he will trim the foot the same way as he would before applying a shoe and that really isn't what you need.


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## mrdarcy (11 April 2010)

Caledonia said:



			I suspect the clue is in the increase in roadwork........... put shoes back on him. Lots of horses cope shoeless without much work, but an increase of wear on the feet will hurt them.
		
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I better tell my barefoot endurance horses that all the training and competitions they do are just figments of their imagination... 

But I'd better stop now... don't feed the trolls!!!!!!!!

Can't resist posting this though...

http://www.hoofrehab.com/draft.htm


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## cptrayes (11 April 2010)

Caledonia said:



			Sorry, but if your horse is sore, then the most important step is to stop the pain. This horse is a Clydesdale cross, and his breeding indicates he will be predisposed to flat feet. It's utter nonsense that the domesticated horses will all cope with a workload without shoes. 
Leaving a horse sore to indulge a school of thought is nothing short of barbaric.
		
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No one is talking about leaving a horse sore to indulge a school of thought. This owner has the horse barefoot to prevent pain it previously suffered from arthritis when shod. Many arthritic horses are a lot happier allowed to grow feet to suit their condition and not be dictated to by what a farrier decides is the right balance for them. 

My own feeling is that it is nothing short of barbaric to take a horse who is temporarily footie without shoes and shoe it in spite of the fact that you know that it will cause that horse long term pain from arthritis. 

Especially if you have not first resolved any dietary issue that it may have. Many, many barefoot horses will be footie at this time of the year if their grass intake is not restricted. Most very big footed horses will lack concavity. Flat feet does not mean it need be sore on stones if the soles are good and thick like they should be. Bearing weight only on the heel frog and sole is CORRECT and is not why this horse is feeling stones. Barefoot performance horses do not walk on their outer hoof wall.


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## CPR (11 April 2010)

Thank you for all of your replies!  I think I am going to try and get a barefoot farrier to come out. Can any please recommend a barefoot farrier in Reading/Newbury, Berkshire area, ?



mrdarcy said:



			Depending on what the grass is like at the new yard you could try restricting his grazing - either out at night and in during the day or into a starvation paddock. I would also relook at his diet - Dengie Good Doer does contain molasses which we advise to avoid. Unfortunately Dengie don't publish the sugar or starch %'s in Good Doer - you could try ringing and asking them but basically you want the combined percentage to be 10% or less. There are non-molassed chaffs around that you could switch him onto.

I'd also be tempted to remove the garlic. There is some discussion whether garlic can affect the ability to break down sugars - the last thing you need in a barefoot horse. Glucosomine is conta-indicated for insulin resistant horses - not saying he is IR but glucosomine is something I stopped giving my barefoot horses - instead I use rosehips.
		
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mrdarcy I am really interested in your post, in the summer I use a green guard muzzle during the day, an then off a night, he has never had lami but it is always a concern and I like to keep his weight down (vet is happy with his current weight) and I find a muzzle helps in the summer. He is not wearing his muzzle yet as he is still in his winter paddock.

I have been thinking of changing his chaff to Honey Chop Chopped Oat Straw however I have been able to find anyone who sells it. This is also true for the rosehips. Can any one recommend where i can get it, in Berkshire area or maybe online...

Also an interesting thought about the garlic...

Thank you!!!


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## mrdarcy (11 April 2010)

No worries - hope I can help a little bit. There is a great trimmer who covers your area... this is her website http://www.ukhooftrimmers.co.uk/ I highly recommend her.

Re using the muzzle - they are essential for some horses. Even though he's still in his winter paddock the grass is shooting through now. It might not look like there's any growth but that's because he's eating it all - I only have to look in my back garden to see how fast the grass is growing now. 

A good non-molassessed chop is Top Spec Top Chop Lite. Badminton Horse feeds also do an excellent range of non-molassed chops that I really like, though they don't have that many stockists - you might find one in your area though. Simple Systems also do unmolassed chop - I really like their Ruff Stuff chop. Again not always the easiest to get hold of but check their website for who supplies in your area.

You could cut out the chop altogether and try him on Fast Fibre - low in sugar and starch... however some horses love it and some turn their noses up. Rosehips are widely available online eg via ebay... just search for rosehips in the equestrian section and there are a few different suppliers. We also recommend feeding a magnesium supplement as this helps the system break down sugar - again look on ebay for magnesium oxide. I personally use Mag-restor which is pure chelated magnesium but either will do fine. It can also be a good idea to make sure his gut/digestive system is as healthy as possible but giving him brewers yeast or other prebiotic (Protexin for example).

Other things that can cause footiness are chemical wormers and other drugs (including vaccinations) - these are usually very temporary until the toxins are flushed from the system.

There is always a good and solvable reason why a previously sound barefoot horse goes footy. Mine do many miles of roadwork without a problem unless there is a cock up in the diet or I have to worm them. And if you always have a set of boots handy your horse never has to be uncomfortable - the single most important philosophy in barefoot riding is to do no harm and we would never advocate working a horse that was uncomfortable. Boot him up, with pads inside if necessary, have at a look at the trim, his diet and you'll have your sound horse back without having to slap shoes back on, which you know is only a short term sticking plaster. Definitely give Caroline a ring - she knows her stuff.


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## stormybracken (12 April 2010)

So much common sense being voiced on here.  You know from your own experience the benefits of barefoot, so look for the dietary and trimming reasons why your horse is now not so comfortable, if you put shoes on those problems will still be untreated.  And another thumbs up for Caroline, she's been a great support to me with my two barefoot horses.
Good luck!


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## Naggy (12 April 2010)

Hi

I can highly recommend Tim Mockford who is based in Newbury. His website is www.performancehoofcare.com and he does a free initial consultation so you can just have a chat before making any commitment. 

Definately worth giving him a call!


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## Amymay (12 April 2010)

I better tell my barefoot endurance horses that all the training and competitions they do are just figments of their imagination...
		
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Mr Darcy, I suspect your endurance horse's feet are a very different shape and construction to the OP's.


So, OP - yep, shoes back on.


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## Caledonia (12 April 2010)

It is unacceptable to leave a horse in pain to go barefoot. 
My unshod unworked horses have never gone lame at this time of year, my shod unworked horses have never gone lame at this time of year, my shod worked horses have never gone lame at this time of year. but if an unshod 'working' horse goes footy after an increase in work, as happens with breakers doing roadwork etc it's not rocket science to figure the cause......... 
A Clydesdale is about as far removed as you can get from the wild horses that these barefoot practitioners base their philosophies on.


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## Kenzo (12 April 2010)

Do what ever is going to be more confortable for YOUR horse, there all different, just because some horses are better barefoot which is great but obviously your's is now having to hobble over un even ground.
Going barefoot may of helped initially but is there not other reason that your horse is coping better with his arthritis other than going barefoot, for example supplementing the diet/type of work/medication etc? if these have changed (increased work load) then obviously its effecting his feet, I'd have him shod or like you say use some boots all the time.


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## mrdarcy (12 April 2010)

amymay said:



			Mr Darcy, I suspect your endurance horse's feet are a very different shape and construction to the OP's.


So, OP - yep, shoes back on.
		
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Did you read the article I posted a link to? The one about hard working barefoot draft horses and how they can actually find going barefoot easier than lighter breeds of horses? Give it a read - it might give you food for thought.


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## mrdarcy (12 April 2010)

Caledonia said:



			but if an unshod 'working' horse goes footy after an increase in work, as happens with breakers doing roadwork etc it's not rocket science to figure the cause......... 
.
		
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I agree not rocket science - it is either diet related or environment/conditioning related. Get the diet and the conditioning right and you'll have a sound barefoot horse with fabulous feet.

I'd be interested in hearing your response to the article I posted the link to.


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## Amymay (12 April 2010)

mrdarcy said:



			Did you read the article I posted a link to? The one about hard working barefoot draft horses and how they can actually find going barefoot easier than lighter breeds of horses? Give it a read - it might give you food for thought.
		
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No I didn't - but will try too a little later.

I have to be honest, I can't imagine that any flat footed horse will find working barefoot easy - and wouldn't hesitate to pop some shoes on it.

Sorry.


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## Amymay (12 April 2010)

Get the diet and the conditioning right and you'll have a sound barefoot horse with fabulous feet.
		
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That's a really sweeping statement, and simply can't be applied to all horses.


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## mrdarcy (12 April 2010)

amymay said:



			That's a really sweeping statement, and simply can't be applied to all horses.
		
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Honestly it can - the evidence is out there, please do read that article and the others on Pete Ramey's site, there's so many examples of all shapes and sizes of horses doing all different sorts of work. The only horses that really struggle are the Insulin Resistent ones but even them, with ultra careful management, can have great barefeet. 

I used to be very sceptical too but I watched lots of barefoot horses competing and eventually decided to give it a go myself, very prepared to put the shoes back on if it didn't work. But the changes in all my horses' feet were incredible (all starting from very different points and very different shapes and quality of feet) and the freedom you feel when you're no longer hampered by shoes is amazing. I now look at shod feet and see all the myriad of problems that I never noticed before and hear all the tales of lameness and injuries and vets writing off horses with 'navicular' and feel grateful that my barefoot friends persuaded me to take the leap of faith.


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## reindeerlover (12 April 2010)

No, I'd best not really.....


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## Caledonia (13 April 2010)

mrdarcy said:



			I agree not rocket science - it is either diet related or environment/conditioning related. Get the diet and the conditioning right and you'll have a sound barefoot horse with fabulous feet.

I'd be interested in hearing your response to the article I posted the link to.
		
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My response? It's a load of codswallop. I read up about all this when it was first put out there...... he talks the talk, I'll admit that, but he only has ONE example out of thousands of heavy horses. 
I have seen the horrendous effects of barefoot butchery, including horses PTS because of the determination to change the shape of horses' feet to conform to the 'barefoot' ideal. 
You need to look harder at what is being taught, and the link to how much money these guys charge to even read their articles. 
 Barring a bout of laminitis, a mild change of diet should NOT make your horse lame. 
Reread the initial post by the OP. The clue to his lameness is in the increased roadwork.

There are hardly any comp riders that go barefoot, and there's a reason for that....... the horse needs shoes to do a load of work, and jumping horses need studs. 

One of the cruellest notions I've ever heard is the acceptance of a 'transition period' of lameness (which is in essence what you are saying here). Just stop and think what that really means to the horse. 
It's him that is in continual pain, not you. It's his feet that HURT. Yet you happily dish out advice to complete strangers that they should continue to keep their horse in pain. 

Get off your blinkered soapbox and think about the poor bloody animals suffering because you're seduced by the church of barefoot..........


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## brucea (13 April 2010)

Caledonia said:



			I suspect the clue is in the increase in roadwork........... put shoes back on him. Lots of horses cope shoeless without much work, but an increase of wear on the feet will hurt them.
		
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Quite how shoes can benefit a flat footed horse I don't know - so I would like someone to explain to me how loading a flat hoof peripherally is going to do anything other than damage a sole that is forced into a bridging rather than s supporting role??????

Boots and pads are the way forward to keep him working - and then look at diet. Get any molasses etc out of the diet. Some horses don;t do wel on Alfalfa, remove the garlic and glucosamine, think about ading in seaweed, brewer's yeast, Linseed, Magnesium Oxide.

If he is on grass - this will probably be the cause - often happens in the springtime.

The ONLY way to deal with flat feet is to allow the horse to remodel his hoof capsule with a higher P3 position - using the frog and all round support to encourage that to happen - shoes won't help. Any farrier can tell you this.


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## brucea (13 April 2010)

Caledonia said:



			My response? It's a load of codswallop. I read up about all this when it was first put out there...... he talks the talk, I'll admit that, but he only has ONE example out of thousands of heavy horses. 
I have seen the horrendous effects of barefoot butchery, including horses PTS because of the determination to change the shape of horses' feet to conform to the 'barefoot' ideal. 
You need to look harder at what is being taught, and the link to how much money these guys charge to even read their articles. 
 Barring a bout of laminitis, a mild change of diet should NOT make your horse lame. 
Reread the initial post by the OP. The clue to his lameness is in the increased roadwork.

There are hardly any comp riders that go barefoot, and there's a reason for that....... the horse needs shoes to do a load of work, and jumping horses need studs. 

One of the cruellest notions I've ever heard is the acceptance of a 'transition period' of lameness (which is in essence what you are saying here). Just stop and think what that really means to the horse. 
It's him that is in continual pain, not you. It's his feet that HURT. Yet you happily dish out advice to complete strangers that they should continue to keep their horse in pain. 

Get off your blinkered soapbox and think about the poor bloody animals suffering because you're seduced by the church of barefoot..........
		
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Caledonia - I don't like the unreasonable tone of your response, and I think you come across as very polarised, and that is disappointing

Barefoot is not a "church" - horses were not born with shoes - we did that. Maybe "shoeing" is the church?

A transition period with new barefoot horses is reasonable - prolonged shoeing causes damage to the hoof, contraction and damage at the cellular level. The horse has to have the opportunity to put it right as the new hoof grows down.

I'll ask you a question - why do you think horses that go barefoot grow a completely different hoof shape than they did when they were shod? What happens on the outside of the hoof is a reflection of what is happening on the inside, and that does cause discomfort for a while.

Yes if you look at this "on one day" I am inclined to agree with you that it is unreasonable to keep a horse in discomfort. If you look at it across the year or two - the benefits of losing the shoes heavily outweigh the downside of the period of discomfort (remember they are almost NEVER uncomfortable in the field - only on rough surfaces in transition) 

One of mine had a difficut first 4 months, but is now doing brilliantly, wiht massive decontraction and huge improvement in his arthritis. The other two just didn't notice their shoes had come off.


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## Amymay (13 April 2010)

Barefoot is not a "church" - horses were not born with shoes - we did that. Maybe "shoeing" is the church?
		
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Why were shoes put on horses originally?


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## brucea (13 April 2010)

Becuase horses being ridden over huge distabces >50 miles needed hoof protection - and they couldn't log into saddleryshoponline.com and buy Easy boots!

Also popularised in medieval times - horses kept in cities, in forts, in stables where the hooves were gettting broken down by urine and manure.

It was always a wealthy thing to shoe horses - poor people couldn't afford it - steel was a luxury. As we got more wealthy it becme established practice.

Personally I think in 20 yeaars the number of bare horses will havilly outweigh those  shod, and shoeing may well go the way of tail docking.


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## Amymay (13 April 2010)

Becuase horses being ridden over huge distabces >50 miles needed hoof protection - and they couldn't log into saddleryshoponline.com and buy Easy boots!
		
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Ah, so barefoot horses do need protection then?

Incidently, the first horses to have any sort of protection put on their feet were.........


....... draft horses - because of the foot conformation and their inability to cope with working _barefoot_.  Just like the OP's horse


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## brucea (13 April 2010)

Actually not the case - it was the long distance messenger horses.

Many draft type horses do quite well without shoes - I know a few. And they have wonderful concavity


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## mrdarcy (13 April 2010)

Caledonia said:



			My response? It's a load of codswallop. I read up about all this when it was first put out there...... he talks the talk, I'll admit that, but he only has ONE example out of thousands of heavy horses. 
I have seen the horrendous effects of barefoot butchery, including horses PTS because of the determination to change the shape of horses' feet to conform to the 'barefoot' ideal. 
You need to look harder at what is being taught, and the link to how much money these guys charge to even read their articles. 
 Barring a bout of laminitis, a mild change of diet should NOT make your horse lame. 
Reread the initial post by the OP. The clue to his lameness is in the increased roadwork.

There are hardly any comp riders that go barefoot, and there's a reason for that....... the horse needs shoes to do a load of work, and jumping horses need studs. 

One of the cruellest notions I've ever heard is the acceptance of a 'transition period' of lameness (which is in essence what you are saying here). Just stop and think what that really means to the horse. 
It's him that is in continual pain, not you. It's his feet that HURT. Yet you happily dish out advice to complete strangers that they should continue to keep their horse in pain. 

Get off your blinkered soapbox and think about the poor bloody animals suffering because you're seduced by the church of barefoot..........
		
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He has more than one example and he is just one trimmer - there are many many draft horses out there working hard without shoes.

I see you drag out the Strasser example - that's getting such a tired arguement. The Strasser trim is nothing like the trim done by AANHCP and other trimmers. In fact Jaime Jackson the founder of the AANHCP was one of the people the RSPCA used to testify against Dr Strasser's student in the UK to gain the prosecution. So please do your research properly. The AANHCP trim is never ever invasive - unlike farriers who will still dig deep holes for abcesses into live tissue and ressect hoof walls exposing live tissue. Our guiding principle is to do no harm. We do not force a foot into any shape or ideal. We allow nature to do it's thing - the wild horse hoof is the hoof the horse has evolved over millions of years. No domestic horse will ever have a hoof that looks exactly like a wild horse hoof but given the right diet and environment a domestic horse will grow a hoof that is pointing in that direction. We let the individual horse grow the feet he needs dependent on his own conformation - nothing is forced into a text book shape. We don't add wedges to try and force heels up, or heart bar shoes to try and add support, or any other types of rememdial shoeing that is forcing the foot into what human's have decided is the ideal hoof shape. 

There are lots of barefoot competition horses - I know plenty and there are many many more in the USA. In fact the current American National Endurance Champion is barefoot - that's a race ride covering 100 miles in a day. You don't get a tougher test of a horse's feet than doing 100 miles in a day.

The transition period is not cruel - these horses are not left to hobble around, I would never sanction that - and that's why I always recommend using hoof boots. Most horses are immediately sound on soft and smooth surfaces anyway. It might take a little longer on stony surfaces but I see just as many shod horses uncomfortable on stony surfaces. 

You say I'm blinkered yet I've been on both sides of the fence. I've had shod horses and I've had barefoot horses - so I think I'm more than qualified to compare them. Have you trained/competed both shod and barefoot horses? Until you have how can you say one way is better than another? My barefoot horses are so much healthier and sounder than they were when shod. They no longer brush or overreach, they don't get filled legs after hard work, their action is straighter and more fluid, their muscle tone is better, they're more sure footed, don't slip on the roads, the condition of their feet is vastly improved, no more cracks, splits or flares. And I do lots and lots of roadwork - I have no choice, where I live to get them fit for competitive endurance I have to do lots of miles on the roads. This improves their feet rather than compromises them. You'd be more than welcome to come and look at my horses feet if you want proof.

I know even before you reply that you'll rubbish everything I've just written - that's okay, fortunately there are plenty of people out there who aren't so close minded. Your retoric used to be the majority view but opinion is thankfully shifting and you only have to read a few threads on here now to see more and more people are giving barefoot a chance and seeing the positive results. It takes a while to change anything, especially in such a traditional world as the horse world, but it is happening and I agree with brucea... another ten years and there will be as many barefoot performance horses as shod ones.


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## Amymay (13 April 2010)

brucea said:



			Actually not the case - it was the long distance messenger horses.

Many draft type horses do quite well without shoes - I know a few. And they have wonderful concavity
		
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Our historical research differs by the looks of things.......................


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## doris2008 (13 April 2010)

It always makes me smile how opinionated people get over the barefoot/shod debate. 
I dont think there is one - it depends entirely on the horse & his feet.

I have a TB who has had unresolved soundness issues for years. His last diagnosis (without being able to afford mri) was unbalanced feet resulting in the internal structures 'dropping' as such - looking a little like founder.
Vet advised remedial shoeing & bute for the rest of his life. I did this for 18 months & he was sound with bute. In sept last year I changed farrier. He asked whether I had considered going barefoot. I said I had thought about it but when he'd lost a shoe before he had been incredibly lame.
His feet still weren't good, didn't hold shoes well, cracked, very flat feet & very thin soles. Underun heels. However I bit the bullet on his advise & took them off. First few weeks were very ropey! 
A few months on & I had a horse with completley different feet! I cant tell you how much better they are. No cracks, he is starting to develop some heel! Definatley much stronger & healthier. Not only that but he is bute free & sound. 
I dont think he will ever be able to do alot of road work - stones are an issue. But its early days & I am going to purchase some boots.
Personally it sounds like he has coped until now - there could be a million reasons why he is footsore which needs to be established. If its the increase in roadwork then boots sound like the way forward.
I would be reluctant now to re shoe having seen the improvement & would definatley consider other options first.


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## brucea (13 April 2010)

It's a pointless argument anyway.

In the end of the day no one would rationally argue that horses evolved to wear shoes, we made them that way by breeding and by habituating them to having that piece of metal round the hoof. It's really for the owner's convenience, not really for the horse's welfare except in some very particular cases.

Many horses do very well without shoes - and the success or otherwise of the venture is down to the owners making the required changes - if changes are required, some horses just get along fine.

All truth goes through three stages....


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## AngieandBen (13 April 2010)

I decided that Ben was going barefoot in January; he was very stiff in his hips and found it traumatic having back shoes nailed on. 
He wears Old Macs on the front ( although he isn't sore on tarmac, he is over stones) If I'm doing a long ride I will put the back boots on too, but as the nail holes are growing down to the bottom now, I have been leaving them off more.

He is no long stiff, he is working much softer and in an outline ( something he found hard to do before) and what I love best is the feeling of riding an unshod horse..its like bouncy!!!  


On a light hearted note I was so looking forward to a long hack with my friend this morning, but she had to take a rain check because her horse had pulled a shoe off !!

I on the other hand  had a lovely time, out for three hours.


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## brucea (13 April 2010)

Isn't that brilliant!

I found when my guys were first unshod I couldn't hear them coming - they'd sneak up on me. 

Then after a short time there was a woody "clunk" and now they make a nice clip clop sound a bit like horses with shoes do!!!! 

But never losing shoes - oh, now nice is that!


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## doris2008 (13 April 2010)

brucea said:



			Isn't that brilliant!

I found when my guys were first unshod I couldn't hear them coming - they'd sneak up on me. 

Then after a short time there was a woody "clunk" and now they make a nice clip clop sound a bit like horses with shoes do!!!! 

But never losing shoes - oh, now nice is that!
		
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I love this too! When my lad first had his shoes off you couldnt hear hear coming at all..he marches around everywhere now & they clunk very nicely! 
It is a massive saving not having the farrier every five minutes to put shoes back on broken feet..not ot mention the bute!


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## mrdarcy (13 April 2010)

I love the sound of barefeet on the roads!

Also on one of our local rides there is a very steep track that has been tarmaced over. The people with shod horses either have to get off to come down it or avoid altogether, which is what most of them are doing, much to their annoyance. However with my barefoot lot we go down it without a problem, one of mine would trot down if I let him - it's sooooo nice not to worry about slipping!


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## Caledonia (13 April 2010)

brucea said:



			It's a pointless argument anyway.

In the end of the day no one would rationally argue that horses evolved to wear shoes, we made them that way by breeding and by habituating them to having that piece of metal round the hoof. It's really for the owner's convenience, not really for the horse's welfare except in some very particular cases.

Many horses do very well without shoes - and the success or otherwise of the venture is down to the owners making the required changes - if changes are required, some horses just get along fine.

All truth goes through three stages....
		
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Horses didn't evolve to be ridden, but we ride them......... 

You are so suckered into this church mentality, that you don't see how ridiculous it is. 

To take your argument to its logical conclusion, you shouldn't even touch your horses feet, if it is to do with the evolution of the horse. 

As far as the trite statement here goes..... *''All truth goes through three stages...''* I despair. 

If you cannot keep your horse sound and comfortable without shoes, DON'T do it. 

And for MrDarcy, please don't put words in my mouth, I neither mentioned, or was referring to, Strasser. 

I've seen enough butcher work from KC's 'qualified' trimmers to make me fear for all horses subjected to the whims of barely trained self serving egotists.


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## hollyandivy123 (13 April 2010)

wow everyone has an opinion..............here is a practical one i hope

http://www.vettec.com/65/products/index.htm

one of the products can be applied to unshod hoofs and provides a barrier, might be worth a try. they are not to expensive and you could talk to your farrier, i am in the process of looking into this for my bare foot 31 yr old

might work might not, he gets stones stuck in his white line, i don't really what to put shoes on and with this i can fill  in where the problem area is


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## Twirly (13 April 2010)

Caledonia said:



			If you cannot keep your horse sound and comfortable without shoes, DON'T do it.
		
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Sigh...did you actually, read, digest and understand the OP's post where she advises that she couldn't keep him sound and comfortable working WITH shoes and he WAS sound and working comfortably without?

So what do you suggest if shoes don't work - as they didn't in this case, write him off or PTS when it could be easily down to a simple adjustment in management and trim to get him right back to a happy barefoot ridden horse...??? Christ you really have had a bad experience haven't you.


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## brucea (13 April 2010)

I had looked at that from Vetec - I was concerned that it might not be very robust and may cause moisture/bacteria buildup.

I'm afraid Caledonia has a right to have her opinions, I just wish she could express them a bit more pleasantly

In the end of the day we all want to do what is right for our horses in the long term - whether that is shoeing them or letting them grow the hoof that they can grow.


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## hollyandivy123 (14 April 2010)

the vetec people do one that has copper which is antimicrobial, i think its  a case of trying and having ago as with anything what works for one might not work for someone else


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## amandaco2 (14 April 2010)

has his diet or field changed lately?
has the farrier come less often?
my WBxTB has very flat feet but they have improved lots since her shoes came off. i find she cannot go longer than 6 weeks between trims though or her feet start to get wild again very quickly!


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## Amymay (14 April 2010)

Twirly said:



			Sigh...did you actually, read, digest and understand the OP's post where she advises that she couldn't keep him sound and comfortable working WITH shoes and he WAS sound and working comfortably without?
		
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_"Sigh"_.... did you actually read the op?  No where does it mention an inability to keep the horse sound with shoes on.  The lameness was a result of arthritis - which with time and rest seems to be responding well...........


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## Amymay (14 April 2010)

Deleted

sorry, seemed to have posted twice by mistake.


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## mrdarcy (14 April 2010)

amymay said:



_"Sigh"_.... did you actually read the op?  No where does it mention an inability to keep the horse sound with shoes on.  The lameness was a result of arthritis - which with time and rest seems to be responding well...........
		
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The original post clearly stated that the horse had been written off as no longer ridable until she pulled the shoes and allowed him to go barefoot - i.e she could not keep the horse sound in shoes. The OP clearly believes that it is being barefoot that has improved her horse's soundness - as is seen in many many cases. Time and rest generally aren't the prescribed treatments for arthritis - all vets I know advise to keep arthritic horses moving as much as possible... and that it generally gets worse over time and if the horse is rested. Being barefoot reduces concussion siginificantly - by the fact there is no longer metal on the shoe, the hoof can expand and contract, the digital cushion gets stronger and bigger, more circulation etc etc - and allows the horse to use it's limbs as nature designed them to be used (heel first landing not toe first). This provides relief to those achy joints and is why so many arthritic horses improve significantly once they have their shoes removed.


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## Maesfen (14 April 2010)

This has been interresting......................


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## Twirly (14 April 2010)

amymay said:



_"Sigh"_.... did you actually read the op?  No where does it mention an inability to keep the horse sound with shoes on.  The lameness was a result of arthritis - which with time and rest seems to be responding well...........
		
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For argument's sake lets go back to the OP shall we 




			was diagnosed with arthritis over year a go. His shoes were removed after finding out about his arthritis and after several long months of care and hard work he became sound; much to the surprise of everyone who said that he would never be ridden/driven again
		
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Now I'm not being funny Amymay but that is what she's posted


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## lachlanandmarcus (16 April 2010)

my IdxTB has always been shod and never had problems. So Im not a disciple. 

 My Haflinger I got as a youngster and has never been shod despite having some of the flattest widest feet I know. Initially when she started stony/road work she could get a bit ouchy so I bought her Boa boots, then gradually she needed them less and less. 

Now 3 years on, and in two weeks time we do our first endurance ride barefoot, our training has been over tarmac, forest tracks, moors, stony scree and very challenging type1MoT aggregate stony tracks. She has a £10 farrier trim when he shoes the big guy but he usually only needs to simply smooth out any jagged edges, he doesnt mess with the soles and they have thickened nicely. 

Flat feet can do it! and I would say persevere for as long as you feel the alternative of shoes would be a higher risk of discomfort. From what you say, that will be a pretty long time.......


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## kezimac (16 April 2010)

brucea said:



			Quite how shoes can benefit a flat footed horse I don't know - so I would like someone to explain to me how loading a flat hoof peripherally is going to do anything other than damage a sole that is forced into a bridging rather than s supporting role??????

Boots and pads are the way forward to keep him working - and then look at diet. Get any molasses etc out of the diet. Some horses don;t do wel on Alfalfa, remove the garlic and glucosamine, think about ading in seaweed, brewer's yeast, Linseed, Magnesium Oxide.

If he is on grass - this will probably be the cause - often happens in the springtime.

The ONLY way to deal with flat feet is to allow the horse to remodel his hoof capsule with a higher P3 position - using the frog and all round support to encourage that to happen - shoes won't help. Any farrier can tell you this.
		
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can i just ask why you would remove garlic and glucosamine from a horses diet??? - I am thinking of removing my horses shoes due to unsoundness from navicular -she has both glucosamine and garlic - and also alfa - are these bad for her - she needs the joint supplement for arthritis
sorry OP for hijacking thread - mine is flatfooted too - has been barefoot before and struggled - but considering it as last resort for navicular


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## Oberon (16 April 2010)

Hi. I have an ArdennesxID X IDxTbxWB - does he qualify as draft enough?

These are his feet

http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/indiana.html

He's about as rock crunchin' as you'll get and he's never had shoes on (because I was too cheap to pay for shoeing).

Think it's really funny that anyone may think I am brainwashed and that anyone would ever be able to tell me what to do....


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## lachlanandmarcus (16 April 2010)

just have to say Oberon your horse is deeply lush!! is he the first PB Ardennes in endurance ?


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## Oberon (16 April 2010)

Think so. He can amble along on the buckle end at home. But stick a competitor in a numbered bib in front of him and it's a whole other story!


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## mrdarcy (16 April 2010)

kezimac said:



			can i just ask why you would remove garlic and glucosamine from a horses diet??? - I am thinking of removing my horses shoes due to unsoundness from navicular -she has both glucosamine and garlic - and also alfa - are these bad for her - she needs the joint supplement for arthritis
sorry OP for hijacking thread - mine is flatfooted too - has been barefoot before and struggled - but considering it as last resort for navicular
		
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There have been studies done that show use of glucosamine increases blood sugar levels. For barefoot horses too much sugar causes footiness and therefore it's safer not to feed it when there are other alternatives available (like rosehips - I saw this new product at BETA recently http://www.litovet.co.uk/, had a look at the independent research and was very impressed).

As for garlic - the debate rages but here is an interesting article on why not to feed it:
http://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/feeding/feed/eqgarlic528/ In my own case, no scientific basis behind it, but I've had a couple of horses who went very spooky and sharp when fed a garlic supplement and were much calmer without it.

Alfalfa is a legume and it's it's fresh form is unsuitable grazing for horses as it is very high in protein. Dried as a hay or chop many  horses seem to cope with it just fine and maintain strong barefeet but others can't cope with it at all and get very footy and flat soled.

As your horse struggled before barefoot it may be she is in the more sensitive group so cutting out anything that might cause footiness will give you the best chance of success. You may also have to restrict her grazing - if you cut out everything else and she's still footy then restricting her access to grass is the next step. There are horses that are insulin resistant and can't cope with grass even in small amounts. 

Good luck with your mare. If you google barefoot and navicular there is a lot of advice and success stories out there - don't give up hope. Nic Barker at Rockley Farm is one of the many who have had some amazing results with horses that have been totally written off with navic.


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## Alfie's Mum (17 April 2010)

Farriers are trained in shoes not feet. Re-shoeing your horse will not stimulate growth, it stops circulation and will slow it even more. I've looked into various supplements but for growth pretty much all the active ingrediants can be found in garlic! much cheaper than farriers formula. If u do want to go down that route of general suppements, have a look at the Better For Hooves website. Seems best valuefor money and vet/farrier recommended. However, Exercise and stimulation of the hoof is what is goingto get correc t growth. I use a podiatrist to trim my horse and am so pleased with results I did a 3 day course in the subject! Google Trevor Jones DAEP and look at the links on there. If he's already barefoot there is no reason to re-shoe unless he is severley laminitic and needs plactic plates, or if he's had a vet did out an absess which causes the frog to prolapse and he needs a hospital plate- yes my own experiance! I agree it's not worth making older retired horses convert to barefoot as you should just be keeping and maintaining comfort but if he's already shoe free I would never go back!


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## brucea (17 April 2010)

Hi Mel, Ross.

Yep - your horse is gorgeous

There was a study some time ago (I had a copy and can't find it) where the higher levels of garlic fed liong term cause something called heinz body anaemia


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## Puppy (18 April 2010)

Alfie's Mum said:



			Farriers are trained in shoes not feet.
		
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LOL! My farrier is perfectly knowledgeable about feet  Perhaps you just need to find a better one...


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## cptrayes (18 April 2010)

Puppy said:



			LOL! My farrier is perfectly knowledgeable about feet
		
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How do you know? He told you so?

Try asking him how many feet he was required to dissect as part of his training. And if it was a shod foot or an unshod one. Most farriers have never seen the inside of a (previously - before it died!) healthy working barefoot horse's foot. If they have seen the inside of a foot at all it would normally be one which has been shod, which becomes his benchmark for "normal". Among other things, Bowker's research on cadaver feet concluded that working barefoot horses have lateral cartilages which are around 4 times the volume of a shod horse and contain spiral blood capillaries which are not present in a shod horse's cartilage.  Your farrier is a rare beast if he has this information.


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## Amymay (19 April 2010)

Farriers are trained in shoes not feet.
		
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Good grief - you people.......


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## kizzywiz (19 April 2010)

Amy May, I couldn't agree more....  A lady I know pays a fortune for a "sports trim", wtf!!  need I say any more...


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## brucea (19 April 2010)

A lady I know pays a fortune for a "sports trim", wtf!! need I say any more...
		
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What on earth is a "sports trim"?

Does the trimmer transfer on decals of flames round the side of the hooves? Or maybe paint sparkly lightening bolts! 

The mind boggles.


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## mrdarcy (19 April 2010)

A lady I know spent thousands on her intermittently lame horse - on vets, farriers and remedial shoeing etc. Eventually they told her he had navicular syndrome and there was nothing more they could do so she should have the horse PTS. She decided to try barefoot instead - cost her a tiny fraction of what she'd spent on remedial shoeing and vets fees and she now has a fully sound horse who is back competing...


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## Amymay (19 April 2010)

We have a horse on the yard with navicular.  It's crippled with or without shoes.

So, as they say - it's horses for courses.


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## Maesfen (19 April 2010)

cptrayes said:



			How do you know? He told you so?

Try asking him how many feet he was required to dissect as part of his training. And if it was a shod foot or an unshod one. Most farriers have never seen the inside of a (previously - before it died!) healthy working barefoot horse's foot. If they have seen the inside of a foot at all it would normally be one which has been shod, which becomes his benchmark for "normal". Among other things, Bowker's research on cadaver feet concluded that working barefoot horses have lateral cartilages which are around 4 times the volume of a shod horse and contain spiral blood capillaries which are not present in a shod horse's cartilage.  Your farrier is a rare beast if he has this information.
		
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You better spout that to Hereford then, they'd have something to say about that assumption.


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## lillith (19 April 2010)

anyone got a link to Bowker's research? or could tell me where it is published?


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## Amymay (19 April 2010)

lillith said:



			anyone got a link to Bowker's research? or could tell me where it is published?
		
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I just googled his name and got quite a few links.


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## mrdarcy (19 April 2010)

lillith said:



			anyone got a link to Bowker's research? or could tell me where it is published?
		
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This page lists his most recent publications:

http://pathobiology.msu.edu/people/bowker.html


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## lillith (19 April 2010)

thanks guys


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