# Horse swinging hind legs - any experiences?



## Cripple101 (3 May 2018)

Hi - this may end up a bit of an essay so I apologise in advance, but any experiences massively appreciated!

So my youngster has gone lame behind. I've actually had my suspicions for a few months and got the vet out to check him January as he was constantly resting his left hind. Both vet and physio agreed he was sound, though vet did say there was a slight hitch in his step maybe once in every 50 strides at most. He was fine on flexions. So not enough to investigate, and she suspected it was more a weakness than anything anyway (big, rising 5 year old at this point (about 17hh), and all legs). He'd only been in light work anyway from about 4 and a half because he's so big and gangly (and tore his left fore ICL at just turned 4!) , mainly light hacking a few times a week.

So physio came back out to check him about a month ago, said he was looking totally sound but was slightly sore over his back. She treated him, and gave me exercises to improve core strength and topline, said she'd come back in a month to see how we were getting on. Had saddle checked in the meantime and it was a little narrow, so got that sorted. The day before the physio came back (so about a month later) he went off behind, basically swinging his hind legs out to the side and dragging his hind toes. Physio checked and agreed, worse on the right but there a little on the left, and only in trot, totally sound in walk. No back pain this time, otherwise in good nick. She thinks the back pain has been hiding it. Totally gutted. Physios first thought was hock arthritis. I'll be gutted if it is, as I've gone so so slowly with him. So I sent videos off and spoke to vet who saw him in January (I wasn't sure how best to deal with it, as he was pretty sound the next day and didn't want another wasted call out, so more wanted advice on whether she should come out or if I could get him taken up to the surgery). She didn't feel it was necessary to come straight out, but wanted me to totally back off him and just long and low walk work in straight lines, and review in 2 weeks. She felt it was more stifles than hocks, and because of how fast and unevenly he's grown (she's seen him since just turned 3 year old), suspected slight 'sticky' stifles.

We're a week on from here and things have definitely improved, but still aren't right, so I'm suspecting we'll be going for a full lameness work up. He's dragging his toes more intermittently than every stride, and the hind leg swing is less pronounced by still there. There's no swelling, no heat, he's happy to stand up and hold either leg for a significant length of time with no issues, and (prior to the onset of actual lameness, when he was starting schooling), he was going well, striding through well in canter, striking off on both legs, nothing to note about his way of going other than unbalanced, which i think is reasonable for a gangly baby who has done nothing. Only other thing to note is he has a definite preference for resting his left hind. 

I'm just looking to see if anyone else has had any similar experiences  they can share. Does this sound stiflely? Has anyone had one with weakness in their stifles show like this rather than the 'typical' locking stifle? I'm in such a panic there's something major wrong and I'll end up with my lovely 5 year old crippled, so any stories appreciated!

Thank you for reading the ramble!


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## scats (3 May 2018)

His age and size would point me to possible OCD.
Friends horse had it in his stifles which caused a strange hind limb lameness and major back problems as a result.


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## hopscotch bandit (3 May 2018)

If he is swinging his hind legs out to the side it sounds as if he is trying to avoid some pain somewhere and this could be a number of things, like stifle ligament pain (torn stifle ligament) as they tend to swing their legs out to the side to compensate for the pain the ligament is causing them. 

Toe dragging can be caused by stifle problems as well as spavin and the horse may be reluctant to flex its legs sufficiently to clear the ground as it swings through the stride which will scuff the toes.  But again the reasons for toe dragging could be any number of things.  

Does the horse tend to swing its outside leg to the side when its turned on a tight circle in hand for example? Does he show any neurological signs?  How is he on a tail sway test for example? Given your description re: his age, his possible weakness, being a big and gangly fast growing youngster I would personally want a neuro examination undertaken at the same time as a lameness workup. I would get him seen sooner rather than later as some conditions can be improved with early intervention.  Sounds like you have done all the right things by him with vet and physio intervention up to now.

It must be a worrying time for you.  Please keep us updated.


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## Cripple101 (3 May 2018)

Hi - he's never swung his outside hind out on a small circle - physio did mention this and said he was normal on a small circle. No other neuro signs from my knowledge, but I'm no expert - anything in particular to look out for? Haven't done the tail sway test but I'll see if I can get someone to help me do it later on. I'll mention that to the vet next time we speak - just want to get him right  

I will definitely update


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## scats (3 May 2018)

I had one go in for a couple of strange issues that no-one could work out.  Wasnt lame and flexioned fine, but reluctance to canter and rigid and tense.  Physio and saddler had been previously and nothing untoward found so off to the vet.
Vet was baffled-not lame so couldnt block, but not at all normal.  Bone scanned and found hot spots in both hocks so these were x-rayed and revealed very mild changes.  Vet said they dont see it so mild as normally people dont notice at that stage.  With nothing else to go on, vets medicated and sent home on a rehab plan.  I was utterly convinced it wasnt just hocks causing the issues, due to flexioning fine and very extreme reaction to canter transition.  I was convinced it was SI.  Problem persisted after rehab.  Long story and many experts later and turns out it is SI after all, which has caused major problems all over the show as a result.

Sacroiliac might be an area to discuss with vet.


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## Cripple101 (3 May 2018)

I'll mention it, just trying to make sure I've got plenty to discuss with the vet, don't want to be missing anything! He doesn't have any 'standard' SI symptoms, and physio felt he was fine around his SI - not that it necessarily proves anything I guess.

Why do we have horses, such a stress!


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## hopscotch bandit (3 May 2018)

Cripple101 said:



			Hi - he's never swung his outside hind out on a small circle - physio did mention this and said he was normal on a small circle. No other neuro signs from my knowledge, but I'm no expert - anything in particular to look out for? Haven't done the tail sway test but I'll see if I can get someone to help me do it later on. I'll mention that to the vet next time we speak - just want to get him right  

I will definitely update
		
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  This is a fascinating youtube video to watch on a neuro assessment you can do yourself. Shows the same done on an affected horse and an unaffected horse, side by side. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QDeskJRbQ4  Just go to 1m 30 seconds and you will see.

The sway test is very good.  My own horse is very neuro when doing this, and you can pull her quite a way, especially if you get someone to lead her at the time, yet she isn't with the other tests. She has arthritis in her neck so its to be expected, but isn't at the point where she is too neuro to ride or lead in hand although there are some very subtle signs she may be deteriorating albeit extremely slowly,  I anticipate this will be the last year of ridden exercise she does.  But she may never progress beyond the way she is now.


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## Cripple101 (3 May 2018)

That's very interesting, thanks for that! Going to try a few of those with him later on and see how we go. Physio did the back reactions and meridians when she was last out and they were normal so that's a good start at least. I'm sorry to hear your horse has these problems, must be awful


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## hopscotch bandit (3 May 2018)

Cripple101 said:



			That's very interesting, thanks for that! Going to try a few of those with him later on and see how we go. Physio did the back reactions and meridians when she was last out and they were normal so that's a good start at least. I'm sorry to hear your horse has these problems, must be awful
		
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Yes it was a shock at first but I've got used to it. The second she feels unsteady under saddle is the day I hang up my boots.  She will be with me forever and I wouldn't have her PTS if I couldn't ride, so long as she can be okay in the field she would be retired. My friends horse had wobblers aged nine or ten and it was a totally different outcome for him.


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## Cripple101 (3 May 2018)

I can only imagine. I'll be devastated if it's something like that with mine. He's my first one of my own and something I've had to work so hard to get, and I've got very high hopes for him. I'm lucky to have rides on a few others but it's not the same, and I couldn't afford to keep two, but like you couldn't stand the thought of PTS if he could be happy in the field. Fingers very very tightly crossed.


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## Goldenstar (3 May 2018)

Both hock and stifle pain can present like this .
You need to get the vet .


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## Nudibranch (3 May 2018)

I have a very similar one age and size wise. Since the age of 2 he's had every investigation bar a bone scan. Went from considering neuro to hocks to pssm to neck. Now looking very likely to be SI and we are starting injections in 2 weeks. Toe drags behind, intermittent lameness, just a general not being quite right, and mild changes to hocks and neck on x ray. Now gets up hind end first like a cow. I suspect he may end up like Scats' and have issues all over the shop and I'm seriously considering a very early retirement if the injections don't work some kind of miracle. It's a damned shame as he has a lovely attitude, is smart, trainable and looks to be a big, handsome horse with good confo on the surface.
I hope you get some positive answers, OP.


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## npage123 (4 May 2018)

Sorry your horse is having problems OP!
With his unusual action behind, I would also get the vet to the yard and bring out their mobile x-ray equipment, to do balancing x-rays of his lower legs, just to rule out any imbalance that may exist there or for enlightenment on remedial showing that may help his situation/action.  It can sometimes be an eye-opener to see x-rays of the different bones/joints in the lower leg and reveal problems which you were unaware of existed.
Best of luck with your horse, OP.


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## npage123 (4 May 2018)

Don't know where in the country you are, but if you have the funds for further investigations for the SI - I would very highly recommend Emmanuel Engeli.
On certain days he's at the Lady Dane Vets at Faversham.

Their 'lameness work-up' link didn't work for me a few minutes ago but you could phone the practice for more information.  As far as I remember their 'lameness work-up' is carried out by Emmanuel Engeli and his team.

http://www.ladydanevets.com/equine.php
http://pegasus-magazine.co.uk/the-lameness-examination-what-to-expect/

I couldn't really find more info on him for you on google but you could possibly get his email from here
https://rocketreach.co/emmanuel-engeli-email_54494189
https://www.vetpd.com/about/speakers/emmanuel-engeli

Also found this info sheet:
http://www.ladydanevets.com/advice-...etitle=Lameness examination information sheet

But if I was you, I'd simply call Lady Dane Vets and ask to speak to Engeli about your horse's case and if a visit there would be advisable (that's if you're close enough and intending to go there with your horse to see Engeli.)


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## Cripple101 (4 May 2018)

Hiya, so I tried a few of these last night (the easy ones!) and was normal on all, including the sway test which is good to see!


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## Cripple101 (4 May 2018)

As I said, vet's been involved and is booked back out next week!


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## Cripple101 (4 May 2018)

I'm sorry to hear that Nudibranch  It's always the lovely ones. Fingers crossed you get sorted too!


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## Cripple101 (4 May 2018)

Vet is booked to come back out next week, so hopefully we can start to get some answers! Hopefully nothing serious but I'm not feeling too positive. Thank you npage123


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## Cripple101 (4 May 2018)

Thanks for the suggestion, but unfortunately I'm Newcastle Upon Tyne, so about 6 hours away!


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## hopscotch bandit (4 May 2018)

Cripple101 said:



			Hiya, so I tried a few of these last night (the easy ones!) and was normal on all, including the sway test which is good to see!
		
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That's good news, so you can pretty much rule that out then I would have thought.  Good luck with the vet when they come.


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## Cripple101 (4 May 2018)

Yeah hopefully. I'll mention it as a side anyway, just need to fully know! Booked in for Wednesday so fingers crossed! Thank you x


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## ponios (10 May 2018)

I have had similar problem with a horse recently. He is older though (19 years) and is semi retired; hacking 3/4 times a week. 

It totally stumped me and the vet. Vet came out, morning after noticed him coming in from field wonky, found no reluctance to move, fine with flexion in all directions and nothing came out from serious poking and proding.  After a week of box rest and bute was 50% better then another 10 days of box rest and bute and went back to how he was originally. 

Went in for lameness work up and was much better again! Though he was rather fruity after all the box rest and really went for it so may have been false positive. A few hours later and  nerve blocks found that injecting the hock made it a little better so X-rayed and found slight changes (but to be expected for an old horse who raced and then evented). Given the lamness came on very quickly neither of us were convinced this was the cause so suggestion was to go for scintigraphy to see if anything came up on SI. Would need to travel for 3 hours to go to another vet that has facilities and so I decided against scintigraphy and to medicate (steroid) the SI and hock and see if that made an improvement if it didn't than the problem must be coming from Stifle though it doesn't look that way clinically . Had the SI done that day and then the hock was done a couple of days later at home. Before the hock injection trotted up for vet looking much better so the SI injection must have helped. 

I have had scintigraphy on my other horse and in hind sight felt it was a waste of time and money (he wasn't insured) as it essentially confirmed SI inflammation that was medicated afterwards anyway. From what I understand it isn't very precise in exactly what is happening in SI just shows up as area of inflammation.  Hence along with reluctance to travel a lame horse 6 hour round trip I was keen to just see if medication helped.


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## Cripple101 (10 May 2018)

That's interesting to hear. Vet has been yesterday and he's going in next week for a full work-up. He was actually a lot better than he has been, but still very much not right. Vet agrees bilaterally lame behind. She could see the stifle 'popping out' , but says that could indicate stifles, but could equally be how he's having to move to avoid pain from hocks - apparently it's quite a complex lameness pattern, but she's primarily looking at hocks and/or stifles but said she wouldn't be ruling out SI at this point. He's now worse after flexions, and worse on a circle, especially when the worst leg is on the outside of the circle, which I believe suggests stifle. 

We're lucky our vets can do scintigraphy there, but I'm hoping it'll be straightforward after nerve blocks, but nothing is ever straight forward for me! He's full insured so happy to do what I need to to get him right at this point.

Just praying it's nothing major and we can get him right!


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## ponios (10 May 2018)

Hope it works out for you. I understand how you must be feeling. I don't think I slept properly for 3 weeks! Its the not knowing that is so hard. We originally thought stifle and I was so worried as a tricky one to diagnose, I think they usually have to do arthroscopy and my mind went into overdrive thinking the worse! In hindsight I was probably over reacting but the sleep deprivation wasn't helping! I have had the horse since he was 6 and he is the loveliest animal I have ever known and was so worried this would be the beginning of the end. These horses don't half put you through it!


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## Cripple101 (10 May 2018)

Yeah that's very much how I'm feeling at the moment, and I keep bursting into tears at random moments  Yeah we've already discussed that as a possibility. I'm just so worried as he's only just turned 5, and he's literally done nothing. I've been so so conscious of overdoing it. He's not been over a fence or ridden comp yet, just mainly slow, short hacks. Such is life. I hope I'm overreacting too! So long as it's something manageable is all I'm hoping. Fingers tightly crossed!!


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## Cripple101 (23 May 2018)

So, quick update from me.

On his lameness workup he blocked to his high suspensories, so we're talking PSD   He's been back in for ultrasounds which showed very minor swelling to both, and a very slight fibre disruption on the left hind. On the whole, the vet has said probably the best case scenario we could have hoped for once he blocked to his suspensories. He's had a cortisone injection to the left which has deffo showed a positive change straight off. He's also had his first shockwave treatment. He'll have two more shockwaves over the next 4 weeks then we'll re-evaluate and see where we're at. If there's no progress we'll have to look at surgery. Vet has said not to rule out surgery anyway as we don't know what's caused it to happen in the first place, so we don't know how likely it is to recur, and obviously that'll be difficult once the insurance is out. Lots to think about and a very worried owner


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## ester (23 May 2018)

Thanks for the update , did they check hocks/SI joints too? I only mention it because I regret not mentioning it to a friend who post op ended up having to ship the horse back for SI joint issues as they hadn't looked beyond suspensories.


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## Cripple101 (23 May 2018)

Hocks are fine - I did query RE SI but he didn't seem concerned it would be an issues - the more I've read about it I think I'm going to push for that to be checked though, I keep seeing that it's normally secondary to another issue - often SI! How can the SI be checked, is it only scintigraphy?


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## ester (23 May 2018)

I think it depends if there is any lameness remaining that you can block too, the one I mentioned was still off post op so had the SI blocked.


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## Cripple101 (25 May 2018)

I guess we'll see how we're getting on with the shockwave/op if he ends up having it. Psyio couldn't find anything else of concern other than the recurrent thoracic spine pain, though both physio and vet agree that's most likely secondary to the PSD - we shall see.


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