# The breeding and selling of banned breeds



## SecretSquirrel80 (16 October 2021)

An acquaintance's son (early 20s) is breeding and selling pitbulls. 

The boy is everything that you would stereotypically imagine a backyard bull breeder to be based on his public posting to social media.

The reason that I've become aware of  this situation is one that would identify me so I'd rather not post other than say it was via social media.

I thought that the dog pictured was a pitbull based on what I've seen Kayley Cuoco and Karl Cook post about their own dog and rescues that they support. 

I did go looking based on publicly tagged pictures and it's the acquaintances son breeding and advertising the dogs via a fb page that he had set up for his "stud" along with his public profile page. These are all public posts and the dogs are openly referred to as pitbulls.

Cue lots of pictures with the dogs straining in chains while he poses and pictures of a dog scaling a tree to attack and hang from something he's hung from branches. He at least doesn't appear to crop ears but is pictured with people who have.

Feeling conflicted as to if I should be doing something or winding my neck in and minding my own business. I wouldn't like to be responsible for the destruction of the dogs when they've done no harm.

I've no first hand experience of pitbulls, for obvious reasons, but from what I've seen on US rescue sites they can be lovely dogs. I wouldn't want innocent dogs being destroyed but it also doesn't sit right that this person is running an illegal breeding operation, selling puppies and advertising his dogs (on Facebook) for stud. I am not a "blame the breed" person and 100% blame the people.

Should it be reported or live and let live? His dogs appear healthy and in good condition. Based solely on the Facebook pictures that I have seen there isn't a welfare issue. The mother has one as a pet that lives with a small dog.

My own bias is at play too because I am judging him based on the "chavvy" pictures and being acquainted with ear croppers. I also don't like the acquaintance, unrelated to anything posted, and it's possible that I would feel more comfortable turning a blind eye if it was someone I liked? That's why I'm asking for the opinion of strangers because I know that you are straight talkers!

Please do not personally attack me. I am not a rule, let alone law, breaker and now that I know (ignorance was bliss) I do not know if I should be doing something or not for. 

What would you do, or not do, if you found out about a local banned breed breeder?


----------



## Parrotperson (16 October 2021)

get advice anonymously I guess.  Not sure who from. Police? Trading standards? I'd say the RSpCA but we all know they're a tad useless.


----------



## twiggy2 (16 October 2021)

The problem is most people who would knowingly buy a pit bull want a status symbol, now before I get shot down in flames (most pits I have known have been cracking lovely dogs) what sensible dog loving person would bring a puppy into their lives knowing that any day it could be taken and held in kennels for (sometimes) years before being destroyed because it gets recognised for what it is?
Also these dogs sometimes end up in rescue and are homed without being recognised then it all goes wrong and the innocent dog gets taken from a niave owner and everyone suffers except the breeder.


----------



## mini_b (16 October 2021)

If you are 100% sure they are a pitbull or “of pitbull type” then report them.


----------



## Gloi (16 October 2021)

mini_b said:



			If you are 100% sure they are a pitbull or “of pitbull type” then report them.
		
Click to expand...

I think that he is training them in the way he is would make me want to report them.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (16 October 2021)

I would speak to the local Dog Warden about this.  If they can't take any action, theywill refer you on to the police.  Or you could ring CrimeStoppers anonymously.I don't see how you could possibly pretend that you don't know about this'stud'. How ould you feeel if in the future, you found out that one of the dogs he had bred had been used for dog-fighting?   Or that one of his  dogs had attacked another pet dog?  I am very much of the 'dangerous breeder, not dangerous breed' mindset but this sounds like a dangerous breeder imo.


----------



## twiggy2 (16 October 2021)

Gloi said:



			I think that he is training them in the way he is would make me want to report them.
		
Click to expand...

Many people i have met over the years train their dogs to pull weights, hang off things hanging from trees, race, etc etc, they have been much loved family pets that owners have become fed up with walking jnnpublic due to the public reaction, of they are clubs and start with staffing but branch out jntk many and any breeds. No interest jn fighting or dogs as status symbols just owners who want their dogs to have an active fullfilled life without the bad press they attract


----------



## P3LH (16 October 2021)

I think sadly you’d be surprised how often this goes on. There is someone locally who is quite brazen on social media that they are breeding pit bulls, they have had some dogo Argentino types imported and what they call ‘bloodhound crosses’ but mutual friends tell me are imported fila’s.

they are well loved, well kept and well cared for but….


----------



## Supertrooper (16 October 2021)

Police had dog legislation officers, police dog handlers who’ve been trained to assess banned breeds 

I’d contact your local police force


----------



## twiggy2 (16 October 2021)

This destruction is caused by sourcing material for batteries to run electric cars, how is it environmentally friendly?


----------



## planete (16 October 2021)

@twiggy. Wrong thread?


----------



## mini_b (16 October 2021)

Gloi said:



			I think that he is training them in the way he is would make me want to report them.
		
Click to expand...

yes and that. But can you police how he is training them? It’s a bit less “concrete” than he has banned breeds.
But I agree with your sentiments!


----------



## Bellaboo18 (16 October 2021)

I'd definitely report to your dog warden. I very much believe in deed not breed but it sounds like he's training them to be status/fighting dogs(?) Its worth having someone go around and check it out and then your conscience is clear xx


----------



## AdorableAlice (16 October 2021)

Anon to licensing authority. All they need is premise address and ideally adverts or a link to adverts.


----------



## fankino04 (16 October 2021)

I'm very much a blame the person not the breed person and many pit bulls in the US seem lovely dogs, however if he is breeding and selling them illegally, using pics of them looking viscous etc and assorting with those who crop their ears it is doubtful that these puppies will get sold to responsible homes and have a happy life, more likely sold to chavs who want them as status symbols and will end up having them siezed either before or after attacking someone or something so I would report him, call me judgemental if you want.


----------



## stangs (17 October 2021)

Are they definitely pit bulls? Not sure how he’d get breeding stock into the UK, unless they’re American bullys being crossed with staffies to get more of a pitbull type. Either way, if that’s how he’s marketing them…

No responsible dog owner in the UK would buy a pitbull, for the simple reason that, if reported, their dog is at best condemned to a life of muzzles and leashes in public, and, at worst, killed.


----------



## Sandstone1 (17 October 2021)

twiggy2 said:



View attachment 81172

This destruction is caused by sourcing material for batteries to run electric cars, how is it environmentally friendly?
		
Click to expand...

?


----------



## twiggy2 (17 October 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			?
		
Click to expand...

Wrong thread


----------



## SecretSquirrel80 (27 October 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			Anon to licensing authority. All they need is premise address and ideally adverts or a link to adverts.
		
Click to expand...

Who are the licensing authority? I cannot find such a place to contact.



stangs said:



			Are they definitely pit bulls? Not sure how he’d get breeding stock into the UK, unless they’re American bullys being crossed with staffies to get more of a pitbull type.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, 100% pit bulls. I looked into it a bit further. He has tagged breeders that he has bought from and they tag people and so on. There are, that I found, close to 100 separate pit bull breeder in the UK advertising openly on social media and more with private accounts. 

It is so open I find it hard to believe that police/dog wardens/rspca are not already aware.

What should happen if a pit bull, or other illegal breeding, visits a vet? As it is illegal I would have thought that the vet should be seizing or at least reporting them. Clearly that is not happening because some of these dogs have had cesarean sections.


----------



## stangs (27 October 2021)

Either he tells the vets that it’s a different breed, or the vets know and don’t care. Given that people go into the profession because they love dogs, I find it hard to imagine that a vet would go out of their way to report the dog knowing it would have to be put to sleep.


----------



## SecretSquirrel80 (27 October 2021)

They are unquestionably pit bulls. Do you know how you can sometimes take a second look at a Staffordshire bull terrier Cross and wonder? Well there isn't a shred of doubt with these dogs. 

That is what plays on my conscious. These dogs are well looked after, aren't used for fighting and there is no ear cropping etc. I'm effectively causing their premature deaths if anyone takes a report serious. Even more so when professionals with legal obligations have not taken any action.


----------



## CorvusCorax (27 October 2021)

I don't think vets have the power to seize animals at all, or to report them unless there are welfare or temperament concerns.
If they do get seized, they could wind up being kennelled for months, then if there is a court case, based on the assessment, they will either live under strict control measures including muzzling and walking on short leash for the rest of their lives - or the judge could decide they should just get PTS because they shouldn't exist in the first place.
Teaching weight pull or hanging onto things doesn't mean they are bad dogs, both of these are part of my own dogs' strength/conditioning training. It just looks bad when certain breeds are doing it.


----------



## twiggy2 (27 October 2021)

stangs said:



			Either he tells the vets that it’s a different breed, or the vets know and don’t care. Given that people go into the profession because they love dogs, I find it hard to imagine that a vet would go out of their way to report the dog knowing it would have to be put to sleep.
		
Click to expand...

The problem is that if the vets report them then the dogs don't get taken to vets anymore, so the vets are in a very difficult situation dammed if you don't and the dog is dammed if you do.


----------



## SecretSquirrel80 (27 October 2021)

That is my moral dilemma. The owner/breeder is doing something illegal but that's not the fault of the dogs.

I fully agree regarding the training. One of my friends trained her staffies to pull weights. Another friend was a dog trainer in the police* and now runs training classes that include improving grip strength. I have an awareness from watching the classes but I have never trained a dog in this way myself.

* he said that he doubted any cal I to them to report owning the dogs would be followed up as they are so busy. It would only be taken seriously if an incident happened/was happening.

The issue in this case is that the pitbull owner is not training correctly regardless of breed. He has the dog latching on in public spaces and winds it up. This is in public videos so I do not know what happens in private. If another dog or child were to enter the picture I wouldn't trust the "training". Human fault not the dog.

Conjecting but I imagine that his dog training "knowledge" comes from watching similar thugs and wannabes online.

I think that I will let sleeping dogs lie. The dogs are well cared for, professionals haven't bothered escalating the matter and personally I couldn't live with the dogs enduring what CorvusCorax has described.


----------



## Gloi (27 October 2021)

SecretSquirrel80 said:



			I think that I will let sleeping dogs lie. The dogs are well cared for, professionals haven't bothered escalating the matter and personally I couldn't live with the dogs enduring what CorvusCorax has described.
		
Click to expand...

How will you feel the if you find the ones he sells are used for fighting or injure someone. Let the police decide if they want to do anything.


----------



## Amymay (27 October 2021)

Who are the licensing authority? I cannot find such a place to contact.
		
Click to expand...

Your local council.


----------



## splashgirl45 (27 October 2021)

its a shame that a breed of dog is demonised because a certain section of the public mistreat them and make them dangerous.  if you watch pitbulls and parolees on really channel 17 ,  most of the pits they rescue are lovely characters.  they are not my type of dog, nor are staffies or other bull breeds as i like lurcher types  but i can understand people liking their characters.  its about time the dangerous dogs act was changed from being breed specific to what a dog has actually done....if the dogs are well looked after and are well behaved and not a danger to the public or other dogs i wouldnt get involved..


----------



## Smitty (10 November 2021)

In the light of the awful Wales tradgedy, what are peoples feelings now?

I personally feel these dogs have no place in our society.

I do a lot of camping and many campsites do not allow certain breeds.  I presume this is due to their insurance and the increased risk of liability these breeds pose.


----------



## splashgirl45 (10 November 2021)

its not the breeds, its the owners...many years ago after german shepherds got very popular there were a few incidents and that breed was demonised.  people need to realise that any powerful dog can cause huge damage to people or other dogs and i feel there should be some sort of license required , the same as the type of license required to own a tiger or similar.. it will never happen but blaming the breeds is wrong IMO..a numpty owner with a peke is just a nuisance but with a mastiff or any other large breed its much more serious


----------



## Amymay (10 November 2021)

We don’t know the breed of the dog that killed this poor lad.  But clearly it was a large (possibly bull or mastiff) type dog.  

Any large breed dog has the ability to cause significant damage to a person, but that’s not reason enough to ban certain breeds.  As ever education is the key.

But sadly incidents of this type will continue to happen whilst certain breeds are owned by sectors of society who see them as status symbols or who do not supervise interactions appropriately.


----------



## cauda equina (11 November 2021)

It was this dog apparently
Poor boy, his poor family
https://metro.co.uk/2021/11/10/caer...how-seven-stone-dog-that-killed-boy-15576409/


----------



## Archangel (11 November 2021)

That poor boy, he didn't stand a chance.


----------



## Errin Paddywack (11 November 2021)

Horrendous case.  What on earth were the family thinking of taking on a dog like that


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (11 November 2021)

How awful, I am not in favour of banning any breed but I do think there should be licenses for owning certain breeds eg: a malinois. 

What on earth was a breeder doing selling a dog of that size and power, who doesn't like other dogs which would have been likely either anxious, territorial or possesive in origin, to a family with a child and who have children visiting..


----------



## bonny (11 November 2021)

I don’t think it’s about families or not rehoming dogs like that to houses where children visit, that dog just shouldn’t have existed. He must have siblings out there somewhere and other relatives. We need to toughen up the law and get rid of them and stop all the excuses.


----------



## Clodagh (11 November 2021)

Smitty said:



			In the light of the awful Wales tradgedy, what are peoples feelings now?

I personally feel these dogs have no place in our society.

I do a lot of camping and many campsites do not allow certain breeds.  I presume this is due to their insurance and the increased risk of liability these breeds pose.
		
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you. You don’t need to own a dog designed and bred to do serious damage, they do not need to exist.
Mastiffs and so on are further removed from the fighting strains, pit bulls are not.


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (11 November 2021)

I am a little 'jury out' on the destruction of pitbulls, I don't disagree with the sentiment of what's being said, to own a fighting breed is unnecessary, but I do know that the way the USA (not sure about here) distinguish between staffies and Pits are by size, so a lovely family oriented staffie could be destroyed just because it's 2cm longer than it should be.

If you're then banning breeds which are bred to fight and have attributes that lend themselves to this, you would have to look at banning German Shepherds which are used as protection dogs due to drive & power - Cane Corso, equally powerful, American Bulldogs, Akitas (which I don't think a normal household should need to own either) and so on and so forth.. Where do you draw the line?


----------



## bonny (11 November 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			I am a little 'jury out' on the destruction of pitbulls, I don't disagree with the sentiment of what's being said, to own a fighting breed is unnecessary, but I do know that the way the USA (not sure about here) distinguish between staffies and Pits are by size, so a lovely family oriented staffie could be destroyed just because it's 2cm longer than it should be.

If you're then banning breeds which are bred to fight and have attributes that lend themselves to this, you would have to look at banning German Shepherds which are used as protection dogs due to drive & power - Cane Corso, equally powerful, American Bulldogs, Akitas (which I don't think a normal household should need to own either) and so on and so forth.. Where do you draw the line?
		
Click to expand...

Can anybody look at the picture of that dog that killed Jack and justify having dogs like that in our midst ? Just get rid of them all and stop with the excuses.


----------



## Clodagh (11 November 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			I am a little 'jury out' on the destruction of pitbulls, I don't disagree with the sentiment of what's being said, to own a fighting breed is unnecessary, but I do know that the way the USA (not sure about here) distinguish between staffies and Pits are by size, so a lovely family oriented staffie could be destroyed just because it's 2cm longer than it should be.

If you're then banning breeds which are bred to fight and have attributes that lend themselves to this, you would have to look at banning German Shepherds which are used as protection dogs due to drive & power - Cane Corso, equally powerful, American Bulldogs, Akitas (which I don't think a normal household should need to own either) and so on and so forth.. Where do you draw the line?
		
Click to expand...

It is a hard one, but as the idiots seek the latest most powerful thing there needs to be some control measures. I lived in Australia and met lovely pit bulls, the banning of them over here has possibly made them more desirabe, because tbh if you were not an idiot you wouldn't want a banned breed anyway.


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (11 November 2021)

bonny said:



			Can anybody look at the picture of that dog that killed Jack and justify having dogs like that in our midst ? Just get rid of them all and stop with the excuses.
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't look at a dog and make any assumptions at all, you're view on judging dogs by appearance is a very short sighted and dangerous one. I have met many more dangerous chihuahua's than I have bulldog for example.

How many poster on here have JRT's? Put this image next to that article and would you say the same things about all JRT's? Or this labrador?







Clodagh said:



			It is a hard one, but as the idiots seek the latest most powerful thing there needs to be some control measures. I lived in Australia and met lovely pit bulls, the banning of them over here has possibly made them more desirabe, because tbh if you were not an idiot you wouldn't want a banned breed anyway.
		
Click to expand...

Completely agree, I think perhaps the solution is in controlling (read: policing heavily!) the pool of owners & breeders and thus the suitability of dog to the owner. However in real life, despite being doable, it will always be a no go due to the huge amount of funding that would be required to ste up anything close to achieving as such.


----------



## bonny (11 November 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			I wouldn't look at a dog and make any assumptions at all, you're view on judging dogs by appearance is a very short sighted and dangerous one. I have met many more dangerous chihuahua's than I have bulldog for example.

How many poster on here have JRT's? Put this image next to that article and would you say the same things about all JRT's? Or this labrador?
View attachment 82555
View attachment 82556





Completely agree, I think perhaps the solution is in controlling (read: policing heavily!) the pool of owners & breeders and thus the suitability of dog to the owner. However in real life, despite being doable, it will always be a no go due to the huge amount of funding that would be required to ste up anything close to achieving as such.
		
Click to expand...

That’s a ridiculous comparison, all dogs growl, pit bulls kill people and that dog, already named Beast, was a liability waiting to happen. I can’t understand how or why anyone can want them in our neighbourhoods.


----------



## Cortez (11 November 2021)

bonny said:



			That’s a ridiculous comparison, all dogs growl, pit bulls kill people and that dog, already named Beast, was a liability waiting to happen. I can’t understand how or why anyone can want them in our neighbourhoods.
		
Click to expand...

Well obviously some people *DO* want them, and that is actually the problem that needs to be addressed. I agree with you in that there is absolutely no need to own any of these sorts of dogs (what I would class as fighting dogs or attack dogs), but there is a desire from some people. I have met some lovely pit bulls, akitas, cane de corsos, dogos argentinos, etc., but I wish that they were not allowed. I thought that was what the prohibited breeds legislation was all about? Is it not enforced?

P.S. terriers are the most aggressive little buggers ever, but they are unlikely to kill anyone.


----------



## bonny (11 November 2021)

Cortez said:



			Well obviously some people *DO* want them, and that is actually the problem that needs to be addressed. I agree with you in that there is absolutely no need to own any of these sorts of dogs (what I would class as fighting dogs or attack dogs), but there is a desire from some people. I have met some lovely pit bulls, akitas, cane de corsos, dogos argentinos, etc., but I wish that they were not allowed. I thought that was what the prohibited breeds legislation was all about? Is it not enforced?

P.S. terriers are the most aggressive little buggers ever, but they are unlikely to kill anyone.
		
Click to expand...

People want all sorts of dangerous weapons but we have laws to limit them in our communities, the dangerous dog law was hopeless and i think we should stop ignoring the problem, just seize these dogs and get rid of them. Dogs breed quickly, the numbers are rising and the only way to stop them is to mean it. It would help considerably if others stopped defending them, inevitably they aren’t living next door to the beast.


----------



## Amymay (11 November 2021)

bonny said:



			That’s a ridiculous comparison, all dogs growl, pit bulls kill people and [*bold]*that dog, already named Beast, was a liability waiting to happen. [/bold] I can’t understand how or why anyone can want them in our neighbourhoods.
		
Click to expand...

_That _dog was a liability.  Whilst I agree that there are certain breeds that require specialist handling and should never be in a domestic home, or with a novice handler, I think it’s wrong to attach labels per se. 

A friend (in the US) had always had Pits, and has never had an issue.  Any dog though, with a propensity for aggression needs to be accommodated and handled properly.


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (11 November 2021)

bonny said:



			That’s a ridiculous comparison, all dogs growl, pit bulls kill people and that dog, already named Beast, was a liability waiting to happen. I can’t understand how or why anyone can want them in our neighbourhoods.
		
Click to expand...

I am not disregarding the fact that Pits and Bully breeds dominate the statistics - due to their genetic ability and inadequate ownership rather than their overall disposition IMO, but do we kill off the following breeds that have resulted in human death from dog attack:
Barbara Williams - Neopolitan Mastiff
Harry Harper - JRT Cross
Eliza-Mae Mullane - Malamute
Reggis Young - Lakeland Terrier Cross
Ryan Busa - GSD
Elon Jase Ellis-Joynes - Chow Chow
Irene Collins - GSD Police Dog

I also include below an article based on a report put together by Animal Friends saying that the breed most likely to bite is the Labrador.. do we kill those too?
https://www.doglistener.tv/2016/08/breed-most-likely-to-bite/




Cortez said:



			P.S. terriers are the most aggressive little buggers ever, but they are unlikely to kill anyone.
		
Click to expand...

They could if it were a child or a baby/toddler and they had access to the wrist or throat.. I know it's up the parents in that instance, but any dog is capable should they have aggressive tendancies.

I don't disagree with the sentiment, but to destroy any animal based purely on it's breeding or appearance just doesn't sit well with me.


----------



## bonny (11 November 2021)

Amymay said:



_That _dog was a liability.  Whilst I agree that there are certain breeds that require specialist handling and should never be in a domestic home, or with a novice handler, I think it’s wrong to attach labels per se. 

A friend (in the US) had always had Pits, and has never had an issue.  Any dog though, with a propensity for aggression) needs to be accommodated and handled properly.
		
Click to expand...

And so it carries on ....


----------



## Cortez (11 November 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			I am not disregarding the fact that Pits and Bully breeds dominate the statistics - due to their genetic ability and inadequate ownership rather than their overall disposition IMO, but do we kill off the following breeds that have resulted in human death from dog attack:
Barbara Williams - Neopolitan Mastiff
Harry Harper - JRT Cross
Eliza-Mae Mullane - Malamute
Reggis Young - Lakeland Terrier Cross
Ryan Busa - GSD
Elon Jase Ellis-Joynes - Chow Chow
Irene Collins - GSD Police Dog

I also include below an article based on a report put together by Animal Friends saying that the breed most likely to bite is the Labrador.. do we kill those too?
https://www.doglistener.tv/2016/08/breed-most-likely-to-bite/




They could if it were a child or a baby/toddler and they had access to the wrist or throat.. I know it's up the parents in that instance, but any dog is capable should they have aggressive tendancies.

I don't disagree with the sentiment, but to destroy any animal based purely on it's breeding or appearance just doesn't sit well with me.
		
Click to expand...

Can anyone explain to me why they feel it is justifiable to own a dog that has a strong genetic propensity for aggression? I know that they can be lovable, goofy characters and all that, but so can other breeds that are less likely to bite with intent, and have the musculature and jaw shape to make it count.

The statistic re Labradors doesn't surprise me; they are possibly the most common dog breed in the UK.


----------



## TPO (11 November 2021)

I don't know what to Google but I'm sure I've read that terriers have killed the most humans. The "squeaking" of small babies is akin to terrier prey.

I had a friend who owned an akita and it terrified me. I grew up around dogs from birth and have experienced of all sizes and a variety of breeds. That akita made my blood run cold. I see a slight older lady walking one regularly and seen it lock onto other dogs that are quite a distance away. If it decided to go she wouldn't be able to stop it.

I've seen (on social media) lots of goofy soft lumps that are pitbulls but I've never seen a nice friendly looking akita!


----------



## bonny (11 November 2021)

TPO said:



			I don't know what to Google but I'm sure I've read that terriers have killed the most humans. The "squeaking" of small babies is akin to terrier prey.

I had a friend who owned an akita and it terrified me. I grew up around dogs from birth and have experienced of all sizes and a variety of breeds. That akita made my blood run cold. I see a slight older lady walking one regularly and seen it lock onto other dogs that are quite a distance away. If it decided to go she wouldn't be able to stop it.

I've seen (on social media) lots of goofy soft lumps that are pitbulls but I've never seen a nice friendly looking akita!
		
Click to expand...

There are two deaths of babies by terriers and all the other fatal attacks are by pit bulls, staffies, Rottweilers etc.


----------



## Amymay (11 November 2021)

bonny said:



			And so it carries on ....
		
Click to expand...

What exactly?  I’m just trying to have a balanced discussion….


----------



## bonny (11 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			What exactly?  I’m just trying to have a balanced discussion….
		
Click to expand...

Because as long as people defend pit bulls and go on about the lovely ones that they know others will keep breeding them. There seems to be a lucrative market for what’s called American Bullie XL, there is plenty of ads on gumtree etc for them, if you’ve got the thousands of pounds to purchase one. There should be no discussion about pit bulls in my opinion, the numbers are increasing, they are getting bigger and it won’t be long before someone else is mauled by one.


----------



## skinnydipper (11 November 2021)

Please add Dachshunds to the list of baby killers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...477c548/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b1a645c2f18b


----------



## Amymay (11 November 2021)

bonny said:



			Because as long as people defend pit bulls and go on about the lovely ones that they know others will keep breeding them. There seems to be a lucrative market for what’s called American Bullie XL, there is plenty of ads on gumtree etc for them, if you’ve got the thousands of pounds to purchase one. There should be no discussion about pit bulls in my opinion, the numbers are increasing, they are getting bigger and it won’t be long before someone else is mauled by one.
		
Click to expand...

I’m not defending them.  Simply pointing out that a friend _in the US_ has them.  Would I want one? No.  Would I want any Mastiff breed? No.  Certain breeds work in certain environments, some (very obviously) don’t.


----------



## bonny (11 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			Please add Dachshunds to the list of baby killers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...477c548/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b1a645c2f18b

Click to expand...

Why ? No one is disputing that small dogs can and have killed babies but it’s a bit desperate if you are using a 20 year old case in America. All the cases of children and adults being mauled to death are by dogs of a certain type. The argument should be do we want dangerous dogs living in our midst and I don’t think many people would include dachshunds in that list.


----------



## TPO (11 November 2021)

bonny said:



			There are two deaths of babies by terriers and all the other fatal attacks are by pit bulls, staffies, Rottweilers etc.
		
Click to expand...

Just found a list of fatal dog attacks and there are more than two terriers on it.


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (11 November 2021)

bonny said:



			Why ? No one is disputing that small dogs can and have killed babies but it’s a bit desperate if you are using a 20 year old case in America. All the cases of children and adults being mauled to death are by dogs of a certain type. The argument should be do we want dangerous dogs living in our midst and I don’t think many people would include dachshunds in that list.
		
Click to expand...

I think you are undemrining your own point by being completely closed off to the other breeds being genetically predisposed to aggression and to having deaths caused by them, because they don't suit your anti pitbull cause. 
Do we kill them all, or do we just kill this one breed...  I have named lots of other breeds that would have to go if we are going by your reasoning alone.


----------



## skinnydipper (11 November 2021)

bonny said:



			Why ? No one is disputing that small dogs can and have killed babies but it’s a bit desperate if you are using a 20 year old case in America.* All the cases of children and adults being mauled to death are by dogs of a certain type*. The argument should be do we want dangerous dogs living in our midst and I don’t think many people would include dachshunds in that list.
		
Click to expand...


But they are not all being mauled and killed by a certain type, are they?


----------



## meleeka (11 November 2021)

bonny said:



			Because as long as people defend pit bulls and go on about the lovely ones that they know others will keep breeding them. There seems to be a lucrative market for what’s called American Bullie XL, there is plenty of ads on gumtree etc for them, if you’ve got the thousands of pounds to purchase one. There should be no discussion about pit bulls in my opinion, the numbers are increasing, they are getting bigger and it won’t be long before someone else is mauled by one.
		
Click to expand...

I don’t think the majority of people
who own Pitbulls in this country do so because they hear about their lovely characters.  I think the fact that they are banned and the law isn’t enforced makes them more attractive to the sort of people who shouldn’t own them and those sort of people would be very disappointed by a docile dog. 

I can’t work out why anyone would choose a breed that comes with the power and potential to kill a person.  I have a German Shepherd, not because I wanted one , but MIL died and the dog had to go somewhere.  Mine is very docile, but the amount of them with issues is worrying.  There’s a fb behaviour page which has dogs with anxiety/fear/aggression issues daily.  They just seem quite complex, highly strung dogs than other breeds. I do have to be more aware with mine, just because of her breed and peoples perception of her and I just think how much easier my JRT, who loves all dogs and people  and is a pleasure to take anywhere,  is.


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (11 November 2021)

Cortez said:



			Can anyone explain to me why they feel it is justifiable to own a dog that has a strong genetic propensity for aggression?
		
Click to expand...

I have no answer for this, of course as there isn't one other than in specific cases that won't be normal population eg: personal protection dogs, police dogs, in some way livestock guardians. However, I still can't support the cull of an entire breeds, or really if we are going based on their genetics potentially 15+ breeds, just because humas are weaponising them either intentionally or through ignorance. 

There are lots of 17hh Warmblood stallions that are genetically bred to be sharp physically, and incidentally in personality, as it often comes hand in hand with talent; however do we kill off all of those just because in a lot of humans would be dangerous in posession of one? Or we we try and enforce that not every Tom, Dick & Harry have one..


----------



## bonny (11 November 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			I have no answer for this, of course as there isn't one other than in specific cases that won't be normal population eg: personal protection dogs, police dogs, in some way livestock guardians. However, I still can't support the cull of an entire breeds, or really if we are going based on their genetics potentially 15+ breeds, just because humas are weaponising them either intentionally or through ignorance.

There are lots of 17hh Warmblood stallions that are genetically bred to be sharp physically, and incidentally in personality, as it often comes hand in hand with talent; however do we kill off all of those just because in a lot of humans would be dangerous in posession of one? Or we we try and enforce that not every Tom, Dick & Harry have one..
		
Click to expand...

I don’t see many warmblood stallions in the street and I suspect if one was it wouldn’t end well for the horse. Slightly off tangent argument !


----------



## Cortez (11 November 2021)

TPO said:



			Just found a list of fatal dog attacks and there are more than two terriers on it.
		
Click to expand...

Terriers were bred to be "game" and many are feisty little sh1ts (I swore I'd never have another after my much-loved JRT died at a great age). The most aggressive dog, and worst dog bite I've ever had, came from a toy poodle, and I'm pretty sure you could find cases of people being killed by them too. That's not the point though, is it? The point is that certain breeds have been developed precisely because they are inclined to be aggressive and capable of fighting. What is the justification for having a dog of this type? I mean other than "because I want one", for whatever reason?


----------



## Cortez (11 November 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			I have no answer for this, of course as there isn't one other than in specific cases that won't be normal population eg: personal protection dogs, police dogs, in some way livestock guardians. However, I still can't support the cull of an entire breeds, or really if we are going based on their genetics potentially 15+ breeds, just because humas are weaponising them either intentionally or through ignorance.

There are lots of 17hh Warmblood stallions that are genetically bred to be sharp physically, and incidentally in personality, as it often comes hand in hand with talent; however do we kill off all of those just because in a lot of humans would be dangerous in posession of one? Or we we try and enforce that not every Tom, Dick & Harry have one..
		
Click to expand...

Warmblood horses are not being bred because they are aggressive though are they?


----------



## Ambers Echo (11 November 2021)

Going backl to the OP's dilemma - if he/she is still reading - the decision to not inform seemed based on not wanting gthe dogs to suffer for human failings. But people who buy dogs marketed in that way are not going to want loyal family pets. They want fighting dogs. I can't see that these dogs have a particularly positive future, quite apartf rom the risk they pose to the public. So  I think I'd report.


----------



## bonny (11 November 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			Going backl to the OP's dilemma - if he/she is still reading - the decision to not inform seemed based on not wanting gthe dogs to suffer for human failings. But people who buy dogs marketed in that way are not going to want loyal family pets. They want fighting dogs. I can't see that these dogs have a particularly positive future, quite apartf rom the risk they pose to the public. So  I think I'd report.
		
Click to expand...

What’s the point ? People are breeding and selling them openly, they are everywhere and until we decide the risk isnt worth taking then it will continue.


----------



## DabDab (11 November 2021)

TPO said:



			I don't know what to Google but I'm sure I've read that terriers have killed the most humans. The "squeaking" of small babies is akin to terrier prey.

I had a friend who owned an akita and it terrified me. I grew up around dogs from birth and have experienced of all sizes and a variety of breeds. That akita made my blood run cold. I see a slight older lady walking one regularly and seen it lock onto other dogs that are quite a distance away. If it decided to go she wouldn't be able to stop it.

I've seen (on social media) lots of goofy soft lumps that are pitbulls but I've never seen a nice friendly looking akita!
		
Click to expand...

Sure. If you include Staffordshire bull terriers and American pit bull terriers in the terrier category 

I agree on the Akitas, there is a coldness to their temperament that there isn't in other breeds I've met.


----------



## Amymay (11 November 2021)

bonny said:



			What’s the point ? People are breeding and selling them openly, *they are everywhere *and until we decide the risk isnt worth taking then it will continue.
		
Click to expand...

Ate they?


----------



## bonny (11 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			Ate they?
		
Click to expand...

Have a look on gumtree etc


----------



## ester (11 November 2021)

It's interesting that it sounds like they are going to trace the previous owner and/or breeder too


----------



## skinnydipper (11 November 2021)

bonny said:



			Have a look on gumtree etc
		
Click to expand...

Do you report the ads when you see them?


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (11 November 2021)

Cortez said:



			Warmblood horses are not being bred because they are aggressive though are they?
		
Click to expand...

My point was more that we wouldn't cull a whole subsection of another breed just because they can be genetically aggressive, which would be an issue if mismanaged - I can see that it would appear as a bit of a tenuous link.


----------



## bonny (11 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			Do you report the ads when you see them?
		
Click to expand...

We all know that nothing happens, same as people who report aggressive dogs, or dogs that attack their dogs. The dog that killed Jack had been there for two weeks and had already scared several people. Nothing happens until it’s too late.


----------



## Amymay (11 November 2021)

ester said:



			It's interesting that it sounds like they are going to trace the previous owner and/or breeder too
		
Click to expand...

I believe they’ve actually come forward.


----------



## bonny (11 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			I believe they’ve actually come forward.
		
Click to expand...

I think most of us have seen the Facebook ad for him.


----------



## ester (11 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			I believe they’ve actually come forward.
		
Click to expand...

ah I must have read an older report  thanks


----------



## TPO (11 November 2021)

DabDab said:



			Sure. If you include Staffordshire bull terriers and American pit bull terriers in the terrier category 

Click to expand...

I didn't, for the sake of this grouped staffies and bull terriers as "bull"/misc and only counted "typical" terriers like Lakeland and JR as terriers iykwim


----------



## TPO (11 November 2021)

bonny said:



			We all know that nothing happens, same as people who report aggressive dogs, or dogs that attack their dogs. The dog that killed Jack had been there for two weeks and had already scared several people. Nothing happens until it’s too late.
		
Click to expand...

Having read the fatal dog  attack article on wiki it does appear to be a common theme that people have altered authorities prior to the fatal attacks.

In one incidence the police returned the pit bull type 1wk prior to it killing someone. 

Pitbulls are advertised openly on insta in the UK. I personally haven't seen any cropped ears or fighting type posts/bragging. The dogs in SM pages I've seen have all looked healthy and like friendly pets. I don't know any personally and don't mix with the anyone likely to be involved with illegal breeds so I have no idea.


----------



## planete (11 November 2021)

All dogs can bite but not all dogs will kill.  Same with people, taking  a swipe at somebody is very different from going on until somebody is dead.  I have lurchers, three of them.  One has the instinct to chase and kill and he can be very efficient (lovely soppy dog, has always avoided confrontation with other dogs and adores people).  Another one just loves to run after things but would not harm a fly, caught a baby bird once and dropped it immediately unharmed.  The last one thinks she would like to kill but has not got a clue.  Different dogs, slightly different ancestors, different instincts.  A dog that has been bred to have the instinct to be aggressive enough to kill is a liability and as dangerous as a loaded weapon no matter how lovely he can be in the right circumstances.  I would definitely report, then you will not wonder "what if..." if one of them attacks somebody one day.


----------



## Karran (11 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			Ate they?
		
Click to expand...

Looking at the picture of the dog in question, I can instantly think of 6 different dogs that I see in my nearest park that are EXTREMELY similar in type. Including the 7 month old pup that had a game of chase with Mrs Collie last week.
I asked what breed it was and told American Bully, I don't know whether to believe them or not. The others I choose not to get close to nor engage the owners in conversation.


----------



## windand rain (11 November 2021)

One bite is one bite too many I personally would have PTS any dog that agressively bit someone. I cannot understand why anyone would take the risk. Temperament in everything is the most important aspets of animals living in domestic situations. Not many people would think it okay to walk a lion/tiger round the streets on a leash although I bet many would like to own one. Any dog that offers to bite aggressively should be seen by a behaviourist with it's owner and it be a legal requirement to PTS if found to be dangerous under the dangerous dogs act. My associate took his dog to be PTS the dog had attacked and bitten several people the vet refused and arranged for a breed rescue to take it


----------



## Gloi (11 November 2021)

windand rain said:



			One bite is one bite too many I personally would have PTS any dog that agressively bit someone. I cannot understand why anyone would take the risk. Temperament in everything is the most important aspets of animals living in domestic situations. Not many people would think it okay to walk a lion/tiger round the streets on a leash although I bet many would like to own one. Any dog that offers to bite aggressively should be seen by a behaviourist with it's owner and it be a legal requirement to PTS if found to be dangerous under the dangerous dogs act. My associate took his dog to be PTS the dog had attacked and bitten several people the vet refused and arranged for a breed rescue to take it
		
Click to expand...

That's disgusting on the part of the vet.


----------



## Clodagh (11 November 2021)

planete said:



			All dogs can bite but not all dogs will kill.  Same with people, taking  a swipe at somebody is very different from going on until somebody is dead.  I have lurchers, three of them.  One has the instinct to chase and kill and he can be very efficient (lovely soppy dog, has always avoided confrontation with other dogs and adores people).  Another one just loves to run after things but would not harm a fly, caught a baby bird once and dropped it immediately unharmed.  The last one thinks she would like to kill but has not got a clue.  Different dogs, slightly different ancestors, different instincts.  A dog that has been bred to have the instinct to be aggressive enough to kill is a liability and as dangerous as a loaded weapon no matter how lovely he can be in the right circumstances.  I would definitely report, then you will not wonder "what if..." if one of them attacks somebody one day.
		
Click to expand...

This exactly. These dogs are as dangerous as a loaded shotgun.
Have their been less serious dog attacks a year since controls were put in place? (Bans). Or has it made no difference?


----------



## splashgirl45 (11 November 2021)

you have to wonder why a family with a young boy have bought a 15 month old pit bull type .  hardly the action of a normal family... i dont know what the answer is, maybe make it more difficult to buy a dog?  i could go out tomorrow and buy a large powerful dog which would be ridiculous as i am a 75 yr old female with arthritis and dodgy hips, who is not that strong any more.. but there is no legislation to stop me but i am sensible and now have tiny terriers who i know i can manage in the unlikely event they tried to savage someone..there is no way i could manage the dog in question .. that dog should not have been alone with children.  when my nieces were younger they were never left alone with any dogs no matter how good tempered they were, you just cant take a chance as they all have the potential to attack..


----------



## fankino04 (11 November 2021)

I think in a world where humans can't be trusted to think things through and make sensible decisions, instead believing they are entitled to have whatever they want just because, it would probably be sensible to allow some of the breeds with the capacity to cause the most damage to be allowed to die out. I don't think seizing family pets who fit a type and have been assessed as having good temperaments and threatening to PTS is right though, I think breeding certain breeds should be illegal and the breeders prosecuted very strongly so the risk outweighs the financial rewards. How feasible this is I don't know.


----------



## AdorableAlice (11 November 2021)

bonny said:



			Why ? No one is disputing that small dogs can and have killed babies but it’s a bit desperate if you are using a 20 year old case in America. All the cases of children and adults being mauled to death are by dogs of a certain type. The argument should be do we want dangerous dogs living in our midst and I don’t think many people would include dachshunds in that list.
		
Click to expand...

Having spent the day with a Dachshund breeder recently, I learnt a bit about the breed.  The breeders view was they are often no good with children and the breeder won't sell to families with children under 12.


----------



## Karran (12 November 2021)

I was thinking a bit more about this last night. I met a lady at a fete in the summer when we were holding a flyball demo. She bought her dog up to us, it was a lovely obedient waggy thing with one of those i'm friendly collars, it politely said hello to Mrs Spaniel and then me and then sat by owner's side, so I asked why it was muzzled and she openly admitted it was a pit bull (I didn't ask how she acquired it). She expressed some sadness about how she'd love for it to have a go at our demo lane but wasn't allowed to ever take the muzzle off in public. 

Comparing that to the man I saw this morning with a brown/white Bitch and a brown dog who was struggling to control them, or the lady with a black and tan cropped earred one that got knocked over and dragged by her dog a few weeks back. 
Both owners didn't have a muzzle on their dogs, didn't have any control and quite frankly scare me. I don't know enough about Bull type breeds to say one way or another what they are or that of the other similar looking dogs I see.

I would have no issues with Woman 1 and the way she kept her dog. Bull breeds are definitely not on my radar as a breed i'd want but she clearly put work into her dog. The other two examples, I do. And I would report them if I had any idea where they live. It's not the dogs fault that they have useless owners and I realise what fate the dogs would have but the risk in my eyes is too great.


----------



## dunthing (12 November 2021)

There is another side to breeding fighting dogs. "Normal" family dogs are sometimes stolen and used as bait dogs. The thought of that is too awful to comtemplate. I really don't think there is a valid reason for owning any dog that's capable of fighting or killing a person or another dog deliberately.


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (12 November 2021)

dunthing said:



			The thought of that is too awful to comtemplate. I really don't think there is a valid reason for owning any dog that's capable of fighting or killing a person or another dog deliberately.
		
Click to expand...

That's all (of size) dogs though is it not?  I know the breed in question have a biological advantage, but I have no doubt that if two labradors for example were intend on taking me down to kill me, there isn't a whole lot I could do about it.


----------



## Clodagh (12 November 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			That's all (of size) dogs though is it not?  I know the breed in question have a biological advantage, but I have no doubt that if two labradors for example were intend on taking me down to kill me, there isn't a whole lot I could do about it.
		
Click to expand...

It’s also unlikely. Labradors may have bitten the most people but they are not bred to hold on at all cost.


----------



## Amymay (12 November 2021)

dunthing said:



			There is another side to breeding fighting dogs. "Normal" family dogs are sometimes stolen and used as bait dogs. The thought of that is too awful to comtemplate. I really don't think there is a valid reason for owning any dog that's capable of fighting or killing a person or another dog deliberately.
		
Click to expand...

So the Sharpei’s I met yesterday would be ‘out’ then….  (Although to be honest that would be a definite 👍 from me).


----------



## Cortez (12 November 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			That's all (of size) dogs though is it not?  I know the breed in question have a biological advantage, but I have no doubt that if two labradors for example were intend on taking me down to kill me, there isn't a whole lot I could do about it.
		
Click to expand...

The whole point though is that Labradors are not bred with the intent of them killing....well, anything. Their inbred instincts have been accentuated to retrieve and specifically NOT to kill, whereas the instincts and physical attributes of bull breeds, guarding breeds and attack breeds are what they are.


----------



## ellieb (12 November 2021)

The way the pitbulls (and other bull breeds?) go for the 'bite, shake and do not let go' technique really makes them formidable if they attack, their jaws are so strong and combine that with their body mass. This list of dog bite force (PSI) is interesting. Turns out pitbulls are relatively low on the list, although still in the top 20 - the unnerving Kangal comes top - https://www.keatingfirmlaw.com/post/dog-bite-force-guide


----------



## Cortez (12 November 2021)

ellieb said:



			The way the pitbulls (and other bull breeds?) go for the 'bite, shake and do not let go' technique really makes them formidable if they attack, their jaws are so strong and combine that with their body mass. This list of dog bite force (PSI) is interesting. Turns out pitbulls are relatively low on the list, although still in the top 20 - the unnerving Kangal comes top - https://www.keatingfirmlaw.com/post/dog-bite-force-guide

Click to expand...

It's not really about the force of the bite so much as the desire to do the biting though, isn't it? I can't imagine being savaged by a boxer or a British Bulldog, although both were originally bred for bull baiting the characteristics for doing that have been thoroughly selected out. The majority of that list are either guarding or fighting dogs, neither of which activities are required for a modern pet home. I have seen/met a Turkish Kangal; not a nice dog at all as a pet, but extremely effective as a flock guardian and wolf killer. 

I believe that being on the Dangerous Dogs list should preclude breeding or ownership for anyone without a license to handle dogs professionally.


----------



## ellieb (12 November 2021)

Cortez said:



			It's not really about the force of the bite so much as the desire to do the biting though, isn't it?
		
Click to expand...

I mean, it certainly doesn't help though! I am in total agreement with you that anyone wanting to own/breed something like a pitbull should be required to have a license/do some kind of training, anything that would put off the people just wanting a status symbol basically. Add some hoops for them to jump through. I live in Wales and unfortunately it's a bit of a hotbed of backyard breeders of 'fashionable' types (https://www.instagram.com/bulliesofsouthwales/?hl=en) - the form of some of those poor dogs, their shoulders, wrinkles etc, ugh.


----------



## Amymay (12 November 2021)

ellieb said:



			I mean, it certainly doesn't help though! I am in total agreement with you that anyone wanting to own/breed something like a pitbull should be required to have a license/do some kind of training, anything that would put off the people just wanting a status symbol basically. Add some hoops for them to jump through. I live in Wales and unfortunately it's a bit of a hotbed of backyard breeders of 'fashionable' types (https://www.instagram.com/bulliesofsouthwales/?hl=en) - the form of some of those poor dogs, their shoulders, wrinkles etc, ugh.
		
Click to expand...

Another breeder of micro bullies (from Cardiff) was recently prosecuted successfully by the RSPCA for mutilation of ears of his dogs, and banned from keeping dogs thankfully.


----------



## ellieb (12 November 2021)

They were, thankfully - good old Hope Rescue helped out with that one. They're doing a lot of great work for dog welfare at the moment (greyhound racing, cropped ears etc).


----------



## bonny (12 November 2021)

Today the inquest has opened into Jacks death, unsurvivable head and neck injuries and in the bbc report it’s stated that the dog had been used as a stud dog in his previous home. It’s not really about the one dog, there could be lots of his sons and daughters out there, maybe already breeding themselves.


----------



## Amymay (12 November 2021)

Poor, poor boy.  Absolutely devastating 😢


----------



## Moobli (12 November 2021)

I like to think deed not breed but sadly sometimes the deed is so devastating (as in the case of the little boy in Wales) that it feels like the whole area of dog ownership needs a dramatic shakeup to try to avoid such a thing happening again.  While we share our lives with animals though there will always be isolated incidents like this.  
I own GSDs, and have had them for 30 years.  Some would perhaps consider them likely to be aggressive or bite so should be on some sort of restricted list (they are in Southern Ireland).  I would be prepared to sit a test or hold a licence to have my breed of choice if necessary, but it’s always the law abiding citizens who are penalised for the types who wouldn’t comply.  As proven in this thread, pit bulls and other breeds are already banned in the UK but it hasn’t stopped people breeding and owning them or types like them.  Rather than the breed or type being dangerous per se, it’s much more about the type of people who own them and why sadly.  So I would like to see something done about assessing suitability for ownership of a breed, rather than just the banning of breeds ideally.
That said, some of these very strong, muscular bull breeds do make me nervous and I can’t personally see the appeal of such a dog as a family companion.


----------



## Moobli (12 November 2021)

bonny said:



			Today the inquest has opened into Jacks death, unsurvivable head and neck injuries and in the bbc report it’s stated that the dog had been used as a stud dog in his previous home. It’s not really about the one dog, there could be lots of his sons and daughters out there, maybe already breeding themselves.
		
Click to expand...

That poor little boy and his family - just horrific and the stuff of nightmares 😞


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (12 November 2021)

Cortez said:



			The whole point though is that Labradors are not bred with the intent of them killing....well, anything. Their inbred instincts have been accentuated to retrieve and specifically NOT to kill, whereas the instincts and physical attributes of bull breeds, guarding breeds and attack breeds are what they are.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely, but then a finite and definite strategy, culling,  is being discussed based on a subjective quality. They are bred to be attack dogs yes, but that doesn't mean that they are. I just think it's misguided to sanction an animal on it's potential to do something, when the reality is that the disposition of these dogs on the whole is very different. 

I'm really just playing devils advocate with my comments, I understand and agree with the sentiment of the main posts on here. I just couldn't do it myself - killing a lovely and friendly pitbull and keeping a vile and aggressive labradoodle because a decision has been made based on genetic makeup alone would be an awful thing to do.


----------



## bonny (12 November 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			Absolutely, but then a finite and definite strategy, culling,  is being discussed based on a subjective quality. They are bred to be attack dogs yes, but that doesn't mean that they are. I just think it's misguided to sanction an animal on it's potential to do something, when the reality is that the disposition of these dogs on the whole is very different.

I'm really just playing devils advocate with my comments, I understand and agree with the sentiment of the main posts on here. I just couldn't do it myself - killing a lovely and friendly pitbull and keeping a vile and aggressive labradoodle because a decision has been made based on genetic makeup alone would be an awful thing to do.
		
Click to expand...

What would you do, assuming Beast has been a stud dog with his offspring ? Wait and see ?


----------



## Pearlsasinger (12 November 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			you have to wonder why a family with a young boy have bought a 15 month old pit bull type .  hardly the action of a normal family... i dont know what the answer is, maybe make it more difficult to buy a dog?  i could go out tomorrow and buy a large powerful dog which would be ridiculous as i am a 75 yr old female with arthritis and dodgy hips, who is not that strong any more.. but there is no legislation to stop me but i am sensible and now have tiny terriers who i know i can manage in the unlikely event they tried to savage someone..there is no way i could manage the dog in question .. that dog should not have been alone with children.  when my nieces were younger they were never left alone with any dogs no matter how good tempered they were, you just cant take a chance as they all have the potential to attack..
		
Click to expand...


I think there should be far more education about keeping a dog and certainly no-one should leave a dog and a baby alone where the dog could savage the baby.  Adults need to take responsibility for their choices.


----------



## stangs (12 November 2021)

Moobli said:



			That said, some of these very strong, muscular bull breeds do make me nervous and I can’t personally see the appeal of such a dog as a family companion.
		
Click to expand...

Well, excluding people that buy them as a status symbol, I should think the appeal is of feeling protected. Most such breeds have a reputation of being nanny dogs: perfect around family, and scare off any strangers. You see all these stories on the news about children being kidnapped, people getting mugged etc that it’s no wonder people look for a protector in a dog. 

If I was in the position to buy a dog, I’d be looking at a bull type breed provided I could find healthy lines. I don’t live in a dangerous area, but I would like to walk around feeling safe at 11pm, and you don’t get that feeling with Chihuahua.


----------



## Karran (12 November 2021)

stangs said:



			Well, excluding people that buy them as a status symbol, I should think the appeal is of feeling protected. Most such breeds have a reputation of being nanny dogs: perfect around family, and scare off any strangers. You see all these stories on the news about children being kidnapped, people getting mugged etc that it’s no wonder people look for a protector in a dog. 

If I was in the position to buy a dog, I’d be looking at a bull type breed provided I could find healthy lines. I don’t live in a dangerous area, but I would like to walk around feeling safe at 11pm, and you don’t get that feeling with Chihuahua.
		
Click to expand...

I think that's the case in my area, they are taken as protection and status symbols. Over lockdown I've seen a massive increase in these types of breeds, plus cane corsos and other such types where people I guess have done the lockdown puppy thing and decided to combine it with something to protect their homes. 
Unfortunately, they're just the wrong owners for these breeds and I fear something will go wrong one day.


----------



## planete (12 November 2021)

I was watching an ARTE programme on dogs https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/079474-051-A/re-hellhounds/ a few days ago and it would seem that in Germany they use a temperament test for some dogs who have committed minor aggressive offences to determine whether they are fit to go back into society.  The dog who took the test had spent time with a trainer to instil respect for humans into him.  If such a test was in place here and well run would it not be better than using physical aspect to determine whether a dog is truly dangerous?  You do not know whether a dog is likely to go for your throat until he is provoked.  Being a good pet 99% of the time is no guarantee that the dog will remain submissive under stress if his instinct tells him otherwise and he has not been thoroughly conditioned to put up with the stress by previous training.


----------



## Cortez (12 November 2021)

I'm not advocating an immediate mass cull of any particular breed, or any breed, I am suggesting that certain breeds should be phased out by not allowing any new breeding or sales to non-professional homes (pros would be the likes of military, police or security firms). I'm not sure how you're fixed in the UK, but certainly a dog license should include the breed or type of dog and thus it would be simple to check on the temperament of the animal, and the suitability of the home. I thought that was what the Dangerous Dogs Act was all about?


----------



## Clodagh (12 November 2021)

Cortez said:



			I'm not advocating an immediate mass cull of any particular breed, or any breed, I am suggesting that certain breeds should be phased out by not allowing any new breeding or sales to non-professional homes (pros would be the likes of military, police or security firms). I'm not sure how you're fixed in the UK, but certainly a dog license should include the breed or type of dog and thus it would be simple to check on the temperament of the animal, and the suitability of the home. I thought that was what the Dangerous Dogs Act was all about?
		
Click to expand...

I can’t see any professional homes wanting a bull breed, I’ve owned an EBT and lived with pits and pit x grey and none have been very trainable. That’s the plus of GSDs as pro dogs, they are intelligent and want to learn.
The bullies I’ve known have been, well, not the brightest sparks.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (12 November 2021)

Cortez said:



			I'm not advocating an immediate mass cull of any particular breed, or any breed, I am suggesting that certain breeds should be phased out by not allowing any new breeding or sales to non-professional homes (pros would be the likes of military, police or security firms). I'm not sure how you're fixed in the UK, but certainly a dog license should include the breed or type of dog and thus it would be simple to check on the temperament of the animal, and the suitability of the home. I thought that was what the Dangerous Dogs Act was all about?
		
Click to expand...


Unfortunately, no, not really.   The  DD Act was passed in response to concerns about temperament but sadly dogs are judged on their appearance rather than their temperament.


----------



## ellieb (12 November 2021)

I used to walk dogs for a council dog's home and on a semi-regular basis an official (possibly from DEFRA?) would come to view the dogs and anything deemed close to a pitbull would be measured (muzzle length etc) and even if it was clearly a staffie cross and as friendly as anything, if it met the measurements of a pitbull type it would have to be PTS. It was devastating to get to know these dogs and watch them be cared for by staff and then have them be PTS because their heads were just slightly the wrong shape.


----------



## Cortez (12 November 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I can’t see any professional homes wanting a bull breed, I’ve owned an EBT and lived with pits and pit x grey and none have been very trainable. That’s the plus of GSDs as pro dogs, they are intelligent and want to learn.
The bullies I’ve known have been, well, not the brightest sparks.
		
Click to expand...

That's kind of the point of my hypothetical solution - since pros wouldn't be wanting the bullies, they would no longer be bred and gently fade away.



ellieb said:



			I used to walk dogs for a council dog's home and on a semi-regular basis an official (possibly from DEFRA?) would come to view the dogs and anything deemed close to a pitbull would be measured (muzzle length etc) and even if it was clearly a staffie cross and as friendly as anything, if it met the measurements of a pitbull type it would have to be PTS. It was devastating to get to know these dogs and watch them be cared for by staff and then have them be PTS because their heads were just slightly the wrong shape.
		
Click to expand...

Staffies have the propensity to be dangerous also, although I agree they are the nicest characters I have also seen them kill a lot of small pet animals.


----------



## Clodagh (12 November 2021)

ellieb said:



			I used to walk dogs for a council dog's home and on a semi-regular basis an official (possibly from DEFRA?) would come to view the dogs and anything deemed close to a pitbull would be measured (muzzle length etc) and even if it was clearly a staffie cross and as friendly as anything, if it met the measurements of a pitbull type it would have to be PTS. It was devastating to get to know these dogs and watch them be cared for by staff and then have them be PTS because their heads were just slightly the wrong shape.
		
Click to expand...

That is sad but I guess any insurance company saying so you rehomed a pit bull type from a council pound and it bit someone or something would not make for good publicity.


----------



## ellieb (12 November 2021)

Cortez said:



			Staffies have the propensity to be dangerous also, although I agree they are the nicest characters I have also seen them kill a lot of small pet animals.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, again that's a case where you need to be a responsible owner. I have a retired coursing/racing greyhound and he'd like to murder every cat in existence as well as sometimes small squeaky dogs, but he stays on a lead unless in a secure field and wears a muzzle because I'm responsible and care about his safety and others'. Too many people are not aware enough or just plain don't care about their dog's natural instincts/potential for damage (to livestock, cats, other dogs etc).


----------



## twiggy2 (12 November 2021)

Cortez said:



			Terriers were bred to be "game" and many are feisty little sh1ts (I swore I'd never have another after my much-loved JRT died at a great age). The most aggressive dog, and worst dog bite I've ever had, came from a toy poodle, and I'm pretty sure you could find cases of people being killed by them too. That's not the point though, is it? The point is that certain breeds have been developed precisely because they are inclined to be aggressive and capable of fighting. What is the justification for having a dog of this type? I mean other than "because I want one", for whatever reason?
		
Click to expand...

I suppose the thing is that the vast majority of these dogs are not aggressive, many are just great fun digs or does on ropes. Many won't fight or have to be goaded into fighting at an early age and fight through being defensive and having to get jn first before being injured.
 All dogs are capable of fighting.
That said I don't understand why any everyday owner would want a dog that is a banned brebreed or could be confused with a banned bred as the heartache that you must go through when they are seized ot the worry that they could be seized must be awful.
That poor lad, his family and any witnesses, it must be terrible for them all.


----------



## Amymay (12 November 2021)

ellieb said:



			Yeah, again that's a case where you need to be a responsible owner. I have a retired coursing/racing greyhound and he'd like to murder every cat in existence as well as sometimes small squeaky dogs, but he stays on a lead unless in a secure field and wears a muzzle because I'm responsible and care about his safety and others'. Too many people are not aware enough or just plain don't care about their dog's natural instincts/potential for damage (to livestock, cats, other dogs etc).
		
Click to expand...

Well said.  My small dogs (Daisy in particular) are always put back on a lead and taken in the opposite direction if I see a greyhound.  Not because I consider them a dangerous dog, but because I recognise that my small fluffy white thing could be a huge temptation for a coursing animal.  My blood runs cold if I see a loose one running towards me.  Same with the two loose male Sharpei’s that were very interested in my dogs yesterday - sadly one breed I’m very, very anxious to meet.

Thank you 💕


----------



## MotherOfChickens (12 November 2021)

I dont see the point in these breeds at all. that poor kid.

re Staffies, there have been sensible conversations on here about their good and not so good points. I had a staffie cross rescue who would be playing nicely with another dog until something switched in her brain and while she would still be ‘playing’ the other dogs would really not appreciate it and generally run off. It really took me by surprise but was able to read the signs and call her back before the switch went. I mentioned it on here and the consensus was they were not great with other dogs. expect another breed who have been victims of indiscriminate breeding.

I am a husky and malamute fan, Ive worked them and spent time with them and know their prey drive and occasional propensity to not liking other dogs. One dog that gave me the definite heebies was an alleged Northern Inuit-it had a very unnerving way of watching my horses and I didn’t trust it in inch. Akita’s are another I would give a wide birth.


----------



## twiggy2 (12 November 2021)

Pitbulls are not bred to be aggressive towards people, in fact many are destroyed if they show any aggression towards people, how do you think the people that train and fight them stitch up and treat wounds etc, the dogs have a high pain threshold and are very human tolerant.


----------



## ellieb (12 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			Well said.  My small dogs (Daisy in particular) are always put back on a lead and taken in the opposite direction if I see a greyhound.  Not because I consider them a dangerous dog, but because I recognise that my small fluffy white thing could be a huge temptation for a coursing animal.  My blood runs cold if I see a loose one running towards me.  Same with the two loose male Sharpei’s that were very interested in my dogs yesterday - sadly one breed I’m very, very anxious to meet.

Thank you 💕
		
Click to expand...

We would get on! Joe is really good with dogs on the lead now and has a lot of small dog friends, but if a tiny one runs and appears suddenly then it can still switch on his prey drive which is like the blink of an eye! I would never let him off the lead on a beach or anything like that. He's an absolute sweetheart but prey drive is no joke. 

I'm sorry if you get ones running off lead towards you, you shouldn't have to deal with that. There are greyhounds out there with no prey drive and who're great with all sizes of dogs, but no one wants a giant 40mph dog running towards them!


----------



## twiggy2 (12 November 2021)

ellieb said:



			I used to walk dogs for a council dog's home and on a semi-regular basis an official (possibly from DEFRA?) would come to view the dogs and anything deemed close to a pitbull would be measured (muzzle length etc) and even if it was clearly a staffie cross and as friendly as anything, if it met the measurements of a pitbull type it would have to be PTS. It was devastating to get to know these dogs and watch them be cared for by staff and then have them be PTS because their heads were just slightly the wrong shape.
		
Click to expand...

If the dog measured as a pitbull how would you know it was clearly a staffy cross?


----------



## ellieb (12 November 2021)

twiggy2 said:



			If the dog measured as a pitbull how would you know it was clearly a staffy cross?
		
Click to expand...

Well sure, I didn't know 100% - the majority of staffs weren't KC registered dogs you could track back through the ages - but they tended to be small and squat in stature, not like the taller pitbull. There was one which was brought into the home with a littermate, the staff were told they were staff x bull terrier - one was marked to be PTS by the DEFRA officer, the other wasn't, because one met the measurement criteria and the other didn't. That was how black and white it was.


----------



## bonny (12 November 2021)

Maybe all dogs should have to pass a test where they were fine off a lead with strangers ?


----------



## ester (12 November 2021)

I do wonder if bullys aren't on the list because as a 'breed' they are pretty new?

I think the legislation generally is a mess, dogs away for extended periods of time then just police dropping the case when challenged and giving them back iseems ridiculous too.


----------



## Amymay (12 November 2021)

I'm sorry if you get ones running off lead towards you, you shouldn't have to deal with that. There are greyhounds out there with no prey drive and who're great with all sizes of dogs, but no one wants a giant 40mph dog running towards them!
		
Click to expand...

Thankfully it really doesn’t happen very often.  And as most will attest to, I’m generally pretty relaxed about other peoples dogs.  But I am ever vigilant x


----------



## Amymay (12 November 2021)

bonny said:



			Maybe all dogs should have to pass a test where they were fine off a lead with strangers ?
		
Click to expand...

That’s Jack off to the vet then 🤨


----------



## scats (12 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			Well said.  My small dogs (Daisy in particular) are always put back on a lead and taken in the opposite direction if I see a greyhound.  Not because I consider them a dangerous dog, but because I recognise that my small fluffy white thing could be a huge temptation for a coursing animal.  My blood runs cold if I see a loose one running towards me.  Same with the two loose male Sharpei’s that were very interested in my dogs yesterday - sadly one breed I’m very, very anxious to meet.

Thank you 💕
		
Click to expand...

I met a loose sharpei, in the dark, at my field gate yesterday.  Owner was stood about 40 foot away.  I shouted that I wanted to get my horses in and could he get his dog, which was semi-barking at my girls (more through fear, I think).  Bloke eventually wandered owner and couldn’t get hold of the dog.  It looked like it was going to go in my field at one point and my girls were stood just feet away. Man was casually telling me the dog likes to sniff horses legs and will get itself killed one today.  Idiot.
Eventually he got hold of it. 
Dread to think what would have happened if I hadn’t been around and he’d just remained 40 feet away while his dog harassed my horses.


----------



## Amymay (12 November 2021)

Two males on the beach yesterday, owner doing the feeble ‘Timmy, Tommy, here’ call. Me busy putting mine on the lead and trying to ‘casually’ get between them and mine.  Them with their hackles up, and me wondering which one of my dogs would get it first 😧

It was quite frightening.

The thing is when the owner finally got to me and I’d told him to get his on leads and away from my dogs - he said that ‘yes, they could be a little unpredictable’.  Prime example of wrong dogs with wrong owners 😖😖😖


----------



## Pearlsasinger (12 November 2021)

bonny said:



			Maybe all dogs should have to pass a test where they were fine off a lead with strangers ?
		
Click to expand...


Or maybe owners should just keep their dogs under control?


----------



## bonny (12 November 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Or maybe owners should just keep their dogs under control?
		
Click to expand...

That’s not my point though, if you can’t let your dogs be loose with strangers then they aren’t safe. There’s two GSDs that live near me that are both only walked after dark and the men with them give everybody a wide berth. I hate to think what would happen if one of them got loose.


----------



## YorksG (12 November 2021)

bonny said:



			That’s not my point though, if you can’t let your dogs be loose with strangers then they aren’t safe. There’s two GSDs that live near me that are both only walked after dark and the men with them give everybody a wide berth. I hate to think what would happen if one of them got loose.
		
Click to expand...

That makes little sense to me. What do you class as safe with strangers, and where?


----------



## Moobli (12 November 2021)

bonny said:



			That’s not my point though, if you can’t let your dogs be loose with strangers then they aren’t safe. There’s two GSDs that live near me that are both only walked after dark and the men with them give everybody a wide berth. I hate to think what would happen if one of them got loose.
		
Click to expand...

But surely the point is the owners are taking responsibility for their dogs - walking at quiet times and not letting their dogs off lead.
My own GSDs are aloof with strangers but should someone suddenly appear out of the dark from nowhere for example, or run towards me shouting loudly etc etc, they’d likely bark.  That’s what I’d want.  Mine are companions first and foremost but are also watch dogs and I like the added protection (whether real or imagined) as I live in a remote place.


----------



## ellieb (12 November 2021)

I agree, there are loads of dogs who aren't keen on strangers but who, managed with basic common sense, live very happy and fulfilled lives. They don't have to like strangers to be great pets.


----------



## Amymay (12 November 2021)

Deleted


----------



## bonny (12 November 2021)

ellieb said:



			I agree, there are loads of dogs who aren't keen on strangers but who, managed with basic common sense, live very happy and fulfilled lives. They don't have to like strangers to be great pets.
		
Click to expand...

I’m not saying all dogs have to like strangers but is it asking too much that they don’t attack people if let off lead ?


----------



## twiggy2 (12 November 2021)

ellieb said:



			Well sure, I didn't know 100% - the majority of staffs weren't KC registered dogs you could track back through the ages - but they tended to be small and squat in stature, not like the taller pitbull. There was one which was brought into the home with a littermate, the staff were told they were staff x bull terrier - one was marked to be PTS by the DEFRA officer, the other wasn't, because one met the measurement criteria and the other didn't. That was how black and white it was.
		
Click to expand...

The measurements are a joke with it but the squat kc type staffies are not how staffies used to be 20 or 30 yrs ago, the pedigree breeding has made them short and bowed legged which is not in the interest of the breed so many of the longer legged types will just be of more old fashioned breeding rather than pits


----------



## twiggy2 (12 November 2021)

bonny said:



			That’s not my point though, if you can’t let your dogs be loose with strangers then they aren’t safe. There’s two GSDs that live near me that are both only walked after dark and the men with them give everybody a wide berth. I hate to think what would happen if one of them got loose.
		
Click to expand...

But they are not loose and the owners are being as responsible as possible so I am not seeing what the issue is....


----------



## bonny (12 November 2021)

twiggy2 said:



			But they are not loose and the owners are being as responsible as possible so I am not seeing what the issue is....
		
Click to expand...

Guess we all have different ideas about having a dog, but to me if your dog would attack any dog and possibly person and you are having to avoid everyone while you hang on to a snarling large dog then that’s no life for the dog and I can’t see the point in having one. Plus, there is always a chance, no matter how small that the dog does get loose.


----------



## ellieb (12 November 2021)

twiggy2 said:



			The measurements are a joke with it but the squat kc type staffies are not how staffies used to be 20 or 30 yrs ago, the pedigree breeding has made them short and bowed legged which is not in the interest of the breed so many of the longer legged types will just be of more old fashioned breeding rather than pits
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree with you!


----------



## cbmcts (12 November 2021)

It is truly a tragedy what happened to Jack and I really hope that those responsible are held to account. The other hope is that people, in general will start to think about the best way to keep themselves and their children safe around dogs but without the knee jerk demonisation of certain breeds. The last 30-40 years of breed specific legislation worldwide has sadly proven that blaming certain breeds and banning them hasn't reduced deaths or injuries. The real issue as always is people. The general public have to take responsibility for their choices and actions or lack of them and be held to account the first or second time it goes wrong, hopefully long before a fatal attack.


----------



## Amymay (12 November 2021)

bonny said:



			Guess we all have different ideas about having a dog, but to me if your dog would attack any dog and possibly person and you are having to avoid everyone while you hang on to a snarling large dog then that’s no life for the dog and I can’t see the point in having one. Plus, there is always a chance, no matter how small that the dog does get loose.
		
Click to expand...

Are they ‘hanging on’ ?  Or simply walking their dogs at night for some unknown reason?


----------



## bonny (12 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			Are they ‘hanging on’ ?  Or simply walking their dogs at night for some unknown reason?
		
Click to expand...

They are both seriously scary, everyone round here crosses the road if they see them, there is no way you could just walk past. Acceptable I imagine to lots on here as they are on a lead and kind of under control.


----------



## Amymay (12 November 2021)

bonny said:



			They are both seriously scary, everyone round here crosses the road if they see them, there is no way you could just walk past. Acceptable I imagine to lots on here as they are on a lead and kind of under control.
		
Click to expand...

They may be scary if you find them ‘scary’.  But as above, are they snarling large dogs being hung on to, and are they being walked at night for reasons unknown?


----------



## bonny (12 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			They may be scary if you find them ‘scary’.  But as above, are they snarling large dogs being hung on to, and are they being walked at night for reasons unknown?
		
Click to expand...

I live in a busy urban area, both owners are going out at night as it’s a lot quieter. I don’t understand your they may be scary if I find them scary comment ?


----------



## Amymay (12 November 2021)

bonny said:



			I live in a busy urban area, both owners are going out at night as it’s a lot quieter. I don’t understand your they may be scary if I find them scary comment ?
		
Click to expand...

It’s quite simple.  To you (for instance) they may be scary, for no other reason other than they’re GS.  To Moobli (who owns the breed) they may not be scary. Unless of course they _are_ snarling beasts being hung on to by their owner. In which case many _would_ find them scary.


----------



## TheresaW (12 November 2021)

Our Bo (collie) has it in him to bite someone. I choose to walk him early and late evening to avoid people for his sake. He’s not a nasty dog at all, a couple of HHOers have met him. His past has however made him very wary, especially of men. He will warn by chattering his teeth if he starts to feel anxious, so I can take him away if we get caught in a situation. He always stays close to me, or OH.

We did get caught out on holiday though. Some pushbikes approached that I knew he wouldn’t like. Had him under control. 30 seconds later, a man came towards us. Generally now 90% of the time,  he wouldn’t react, but being wound up by the bikes, he did. Thankfully I had him on the lead, he’s much more relaxed off, and only I ended up slightly injured.

He is 100% other dog neutral.


----------



## bonny (12 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			It’s quite simple.  To you (for instance) they may be scary, for no other reason other than they’re GS.  To Moobli (who owns the breed) they may not be scary. Unless of course they _are_ snarling beasts being hung on to by their owner. In which case many _would_ find them scary.
		
Click to expand...

I’ve already said everyone round here is scared of them, I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about that


----------



## windand rain (12 November 2021)

My friend had three very large very noisy GSD she text me one night to say her dad was dying and could I go let the dogs out or walk them. I hadn't seen them for months as she had been deeply involved with some guy. I went to the door to be met by the three dogs standing full height at the door snarling and barking. They recognised me and quietened down so I put leads on them by this time it was close to midnight so thought it will be fine they'll look after me. We walked along the track and met some drunks making their way home from the pub the three dogs hid behind me. So much for my protection. I do love GSDs they are wonderful and most have great minds and temperaments I hate terriers and bull breeds I simply don't trust them. I was a postie for many years and was bitten most often by jack russel terriers and collie crosses. Painful bites but fortunately not life threatening but a child might have been different. My baby daughter was scarred for life when a JR bit her face


----------



## GSD Woman (13 November 2021)

Living in the US I can't really comment on the calling certain breeds dangerous.  Pit bulls were not originally bred to be aggressive to humans.  It was when the people like the rat buzzard Michael Vick got involved with the breed that things took a swing downwards. Even some of Michael Vick's dog went on to become therapy dogs. 
Here pit bull types are banned by certain apartment complexes.  The owners can get vets to call them boxer mixes. 

However, dog aggressive is part of the breed.  Some of the dogs are fine with small animals and other dogs.  I wouldn't trust others at all.  One of my nieces has a pit bull from a shelter.  She is convinced it is all in how you raise them.  She is wrong.  The dog is under a year right now but give him another 8-12 months and I see him savaging their lab mix.

I did have a pit bull spring up towards my face with the intention of removing it once.  Most of the pits I deal with have no such inclination. On average I would rather work with a pit than a Sharpei, Weimaraner, Dalmatian, Chow, Central Asian Shepherd (those are scary dogs), or Akita. Too many dogs of those breeds have been nightmares to work on.


----------



## bonny (13 November 2021)

GSD Woman said:



			Living in the US I can't really comment on the calling certain breeds dangerous.  Pit bulls were not originally bred to be aggressive to humans.  It was when the people like the rat buzzard Michael Vick got involved with the breed that things took a swing downwards. Even some of Michael Vick's dog went on to become therapy dogs.
Here pit bull types are banned by certain apartment complexes.  The owners can get vets to call them boxer mixes.

However, dog aggressive is part of the breed.  Some of the dogs are fine with small animals and other dogs.  I wouldn't trust others at all.  One of my nieces has a pit bull from a shelter.  She is convinced it is all in how you raise them.  She is wrong.  The dog is under a year right now but give him another 8-12 months and I see him savaging their lab mix.

I did have a pit bull spring up towards my face with the intention of removing it once.  Most of the pits I deal with have no such inclination. On average I would rather work with a pit than a Sharpei, Weimaraner, Dalmatian, Chow, Central Asian Shepherd (those are scary dogs), or Akita. Too many dogs of those breeds have been nightmares to work on.
		
Click to expand...

I just had a look at fatal dog attacks in the USA, there has been 430 in the last ten years 230 of which were Pitbulls. You seem to have the same problems that we have.


----------



## GSD Woman (13 November 2021)

bonny, we do have a huge problem with uninformed people and those wanting to be bad a$$e$ with these dogs. They are also very popular. Not all of those dogs are registered APBTs or AKC AM Staffs. So, you never know what you're getting without doing a lot of research.  Sort of like my breed.


----------



## rowan666 (15 November 2021)

bonny said:



			Because as long as people defend pit bulls and go on about the lovely ones that they know others will keep breeding them. There seems to be a lucrative market for what’s called American Bullie XL, there is plenty of ads on gumtree etc for them, if you’ve got the thousands of pounds to purchase one. There should be no discussion about pit bulls in my opinion, the numbers are increasing, they are getting bigger and it won’t be long before someone else is mauled by one.
		
Click to expand...

American bully and an XL bully are two different breeds and neither are the same as APBT 
I have always had large breed dogs (GSD, CC, GD) until my last (EM xDDB) who completely broke my daughters heart when he passed, he was her best friend and protector, weighed in at over 10 stone, terrified people to look at but was honestly the sweetest dog I ever met and you would never find a dog more trustworthy with kids... the tiny terrier I have now would never be trusted in a room alone with kids! Not everyone who owns large breed dogs are chavs who have them as status symbols, some of us just love them for what they are... loyal, protective, loving and beautiful. 

How would some of you narrow minded people feel if it was decided to start banning and branding certain breeds of horse dangerous!? Let's PTS all chestnut mares, Arabs, TBs and welsh's because they're crazy and anything over 16.2 because big horses are dangerous... sounds ridiculous doesn't it


----------



## bonny (15 November 2021)

rowan666 said:



			American bully and an XL bully are two different breeds and neither are the same as APBT
I have always had large breed dogs (GSD, CC, GD) until my last (EM xDDB) who completely broke my daughters heart when he passed, he was her best friend and protector, weighed in at over 10 stone, terrified people to look at but was honestly the sweetest dog I ever met and you would never find a dog more trustworthy with kids... the tiny terrier I have now would never be trusted in a room alone with kids! Not everyone who owns large breed dogs are chavs who have them as status symbols, some of us just love them for what they are... loyal, protective, loving and beautiful.

How would some of you narrow minded people feel if it was decided to start banning and branding certain breeds of horse dangerous!? Let's PTS all chestnut mares, Arabs, TBs and welsh's because they're crazy and anything over 16.2 because big horses are dangerous... sounds ridiculous doesn't it
		
Click to expand...

Horses aren’t in the streets, parks and people’s houses.


----------



## twiggy2 (15 November 2021)

bonny said:



			Horses aren’t in the streets, parks and people’s houses.
		
Click to expand...

They are on the roads and in fields with public footpaths across them though...


----------



## Cortez (15 November 2021)

rowan666 said:



			American bully and an XL bully are two different breeds and neither are the same as APBT
I have always had large breed dogs (GSD, CC, GD) until my last (EM xDDB) who completely broke my daughters heart when he passed, he was her best friend and protector, weighed in at over 10 stone, terrified people to look at but was honestly the sweetest dog I ever met and you would never find a dog more trustworthy with kids... the tiny terrier I have now would never be trusted in a room alone with kids! Not everyone who owns large breed dogs are chavs who have them as status symbols, some of us just love them for what they are... loyal, protective, loving and beautiful.

How would some of you narrow minded people feel if it was decided to start banning and branding certain breeds of horse dangerous!? Let's PTS all chestnut mares, Arabs, TBs and welsh's because they're crazy and anything over 16.2 because big horses are dangerous... sounds ridiculous doesn't it
		
Click to expand...

Sounds ridiculous because it is a completely false equivalency: horses, of any breed, are  unlikely to attack people or children on a whim.


----------



## skinnydipper (15 November 2021)

bonny said:



			There’s two GSDs that live near me that are both only walked after dark and the men with them give everybody a wide berth
		
Click to expand...

I should imagine they going out at night to avoid the idiots, like the woman who tried to hug my GSD despite me asking her not to stroke him.  She said "but he looks so lovely" as she went to wrap her arms round him. She probably needed to change her underwear when he told her, very loudly, to back off.


----------



## skinnydipper (15 November 2021)

"We do know [Garcia] was attacked by ... a border collie. Rest are mixed breeds. We don't know what kinds of dogs they were," Bryant said.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tanyachen/group-of-dogs-attacked-killed-a-woman


'Devastated' mum tells of horrific moment dog 'savaged' toddler, 2, leaving him scarred for life 
The toddler was left with "permanent scarring" after the border collie 'grabbed his face and shook him several times'. 

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/devastated-mum-tells-horrific-moment-21339931


----------



## bonny (15 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			I should imagine they going out at night to avoid the idiots, like the woman who tried to hug my GSD despite me asking her not to stroke him.  She said "but he looks so lovely" as she went to wrap her arms round him. She probably needed to change her underwear when he told her, very loudly, to back off.
		
Click to expand...

Does that really make sense when you read it back ? They snarl, bark and lunge at everyone anywhere near them but they are being walked at night to avoid people hugging them ! They are dangerous, they scare people, they certainly don’t look huggable.


----------



## skinnydipper (15 November 2021)

bonny said:



			Does that really make sense when you read it back ? They snarl, bark and lunge at everyone anywhere near them but they are being walked at night to avoid people hugging them ! They are dangerous, they scare people, they certainly don’t look huggable.
		
Click to expand...

In your haste to reply you seem to have missed post #154.


----------



## bonny (15 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			In your haste to reply you seem to have missed post #154.
		
Click to expand...

No I didn’t


----------



## rowan666 (16 November 2021)

bonny said:



			Horses aren’t in the streets, parks and people’s houses.
		
Click to expand...

Well that isn't true is it, for most riders the only hacking places we have are public places since most councils don't see fit to provide us with our own private roads and parks away from pedestrians 🤦‍♀️ 



Cortez said:



			Sounds ridiculous because it is a completely false equivalency: horses, of any breed, are  unlikely to attack people or children on a whim.
		
Click to expand...

Also not really true either is it. There are literally hundreds of threads on here about aggressive horses.. I've come across a few in my lifetime, incidentally, all welsh 🤷‍♀️ (I own a lovely Welsh so have nothing against them it's likely just a coincidence)


----------



## Cortez (16 November 2021)

rowan666 said:



			Well that isn't true is it, for most riders the only hacking places we have are public places since most councils don't see fit to provide us with our own private roads and parks away from pedestrians 🤦‍♀️


Also not really true either is it. There are literally hundreds of threads on here about aggressive horses.. I've come across a few in my lifetime, incidentally, all welsh 🤷‍♀️ (I own a lovely Welsh so have nothing against them it's likely just a coincidence)
		
Click to expand...

Horses are not regularly attacking people with intent. An aggressive horse is far, far rarer than a dog which attacks people.


----------



## CorvusCorax (16 November 2021)

I have been on horses that have nearly come through people's windscreens/landed on their bonnets. Fun times.

Have ummed and ahhed about whether or not to post again on this subject as it's really hard to sum up sometimes, to address Cortez' concerns about why people want to own the dogs they do, I suppose I would be classed as one of those people who would be asked, why do I want to own the dogs I do, I do train them in a sport where there is biting involved as part of one of three phases, but the key words there are 'trained' and 'sport'. They are not 'personal protection' dogs nor do I want or expect them to have a go at anyone who comes near me, what we do is extremely contextual and is more of a test of their genetics and ability to deal with stress/a breed selection tool which has been developed over 100 years. Control and obedience is prized above all else.
Temperament testing is a huge element, the judge must always be able to touch your dog, at the highest level, there is a very rigorous and intensive vet check where the dog cannot be distracted using food or a ball. Any sign of aggression, thanks very much for coming, but you're disqualified. As far as I am aware there has not been a DQ for aggression in the vet check at world level in my own sport since 2016 when a dog growled when a stethoscope was applied.
These are dogs which are very deliberately bred and selected to do the job or sport that they do and to work alongside people and live harmoniously in the home, often with children.
In a litter of working or service dogs, not all of them are going to cut the mustard, plenty of them go on to active pet homes without doing any harm to anyone. If it was not for civilians breeding these dogs, the police and army would have a hard time sourcing their own breeding and working dogs and the gene pool would be in an even worse state than it is already. Just because they are bred for one purpose does not mean their instincts cannot be channelled into something else.
As someone else once said, people who are trained in martial arts do not walk down the street karate chopping and round-housing people. As I said my dogs live in the home, walk down the street, cuddle my Mum and as mentioned in another thread, the older two who are now retired from high-level competition, have had two random men working in the garden all week and they haven't really taken them under their notice (they were on lead, obviously). The youngest is a bit of a scatterbrain but I know she will improve **with training**.
For me the biggest problems are with untrained/badly trained and under-stimulated dogs, dogs which have been badly bred/crap genetics, dogs which have been taken into a completely unsuitable home environment, owners who are completely unable to read dog body language or mitigate their living arrangements (for instance, there are some dogs owned by my friends who I would be happier that they were left outside when I visit!!), and for those working or service dogs who do go rogue, huge gaps in training and handling, which is a whole other debate.
However I will say that properly training these dogs is a lifestyle, it's not for everyone, and that's probably why there are so many wingnuts out there looking at YouTube videos, copying them and not realising that there were thousands of repetitions and a lot of science and theory behind the training to get there but think that because their dog barks on the end of a leash 'i hAve a PerSonAl pRoteCtion doG'.


----------



## CorvusCorax (16 November 2021)

Also, if people want to continue seeing those dogs with the mental strength and ability to chase down and apprehend criminals, find missing people, recover cadavers, sniff out bombs in the desert on the end of a long line, go into a room with a terrorist in it and hold him in place before the tactical unit get there and so many other jobs of varying importance, then they're going to have to put up with civilians like me owning, breeding and training them in a different way, it all comes from the same place, genetically and you won't have one without the other IMO.

I can't speak to bull breeds/what motivates people who own them, but that's my position anyhoo.


----------



## skinnydipper (16 November 2021)

Bull terriers and mastiffs have been mentioned on this thread.  Here is my experience:

My  dog is very sweet natured and calm.   People are drawn to her and she loves the attention.  She has had strangers fuss her and kiss the top of her head or bend down and go nose to nose with her (not something I would do to someone else's dog but that's people for you). She is very gentle with children, they like to pet her. Suggestions from the parents that their child could ride her are firmly rejected.

I joke that she has her own fan club.

She is excellent with other dogs and patient with puppies.  She has many dog friends and is always keen to make new ones.  She is allowed off lead to play with her friends.

She is tolerant of those dogs who are rude, rambunctious or aggressive.

She is a mastiff mix.


My bull terrier was eager to please and was everyone's friend, human and canine, throughout her 13 years with me.


Reasons for owning - they needed a home.


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (22 November 2021)

I occasionally use Tik Tok (guilty pleasure to wind down before bed - I’m too old for it, I know!) and I don’t know why but I have now had about 4 videos randomly come up on my page all involving pit bull attacks on other dogs; I haven’t been able to finish watching a single one.  I have to honestly say that I am going to completely back track on my stance and say that I would support the eradication of the breed fully, either by banning breeding and naturally have them die out or I don’t know how.

I am not tarring them all with the same brush, I know there are some lovely ones out there, but what makes me uncomfortable is the fact that regardless of the situation they do not let go once bitten.  Even if they have completely degloved the other dogs leg, and the other dog is laid down in complete surrender and screaming. People had lifted the dogs back legs, they weren’t beating the dog and he just wouldn’t give up the attack trying to gain ground - it was hideous and near on brought me to tears.  That’s not a normal state of mind for any domesticated animal, and especially not one so ‘readily’ available.

I still don’t support the destruction of dogs based on measurements or their appearance but just thought I’d I were vocal about my opinion being one way, I should hold my hands up if that opinion changes.


----------



## GSD Woman (23 November 2021)

ASBmO,
Unfortunately that has been bred into these dogs for hundreds of generations. I certainly don't trust one that I don't know very well around my dogs and don't trust them with small animals.
Some are far enough away from the battle dogs that they aren't as bad but when people aren't careful of the breeder and background it tends to be a disaster. Maybe some sort of test for potential owners to make sure they understand the risks of owning such dogs.


----------



## cauda equina (23 November 2021)

No tests or checks are 100% reliable; people lie, dogs get stolen
Wouldn't it be better if these dogs just didn't exist?


----------



## Meowy Catkin (23 November 2021)

Deleted


----------



## GSD Woman (23 November 2021)

cauda equina said:



			No tests or checks are 100% reliable; people lie, dogs get stolen
Wouldn't it be better if these dogs just didn't exist?
		
Click to expand...

People drive cars without licenses or insurance.  They drive drunk and under the influence of various drugs.  Maybe cars shouldn't exist.

Seriously,  good luck with getting rid of pit bull types.  All you'll do is what it appears the UK has done; drive the breeding underground. Yes, there are tons of pit bulls in the US and yes, there are bad ones and bad owners.  The same can be said for just about any powerful breed.  Do we just get rid of all of those breeds too?  Cane Corsos, Akitas, Filas, Dogos, Rottweilers, Dobermans, English Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, Dobermans, German Shepherd Dogs, and the list could go on.


----------



## bonny (23 November 2021)

GSD Woman said:



			People drive cars without licenses or insurance.  They drive drunk and under the influence of various drugs.  Maybe cars shouldn't exist.

Seriously,  good luck with getting rid of pit bull types.  All you'll do is what it appears the UK has done; drive the breeding underground. Yes, there are tons of pit bulls in the US and yes, there are bad ones and bad owners.  The same can be said for just about any powerful breed.  Do we just get rid of all of those breeds too?  Cane Corsos, Akitas, Filas, Dogos, Rottweilers, Dobermans, English Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, Dobermans, German Shepherd Dogs, and the list could go on.
		
Click to expand...

There are a lot of people who would say yes


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (23 November 2021)

GSD Woman said:



			People drive cars without licenses or insurance.  They drive drunk and under the influence of various drugs.  Maybe cars shouldn't exist.

Seriously,  good luck with getting rid of pit bull types.  All you'll do is what it appears the UK has done; drive the breeding underground. Yes, there are tons of pit bulls in the US and yes, there are bad ones and bad owners.  The same can be said for just about any powerful breed.  Do we just get rid of all of those breeds too?  Cane Corsos, Akitas, Filas, Dogos, Rottweilers, Dobermans, English Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, Dobermans, German Shepherd Dogs, and the list could go on.
		
Click to expand...

I completely agree with your second paragraph, but my distinction would be are these dogs genetically bred to not let go once bitten, are they genetically bred to take a natural dislike to all other animals - regardless of body language. Hard to police as some breed lines will be better than others, and there will be individual outliers that are either unnaturally good or unnaturally bad.. but that would be personally where I would draw the line.


----------



## CorvusCorax (23 November 2021)

So, the people who think these breeds should be wiped out en masse, would you, personally, put the needle in a dog that has done nothing wrong? 
And again, wave goodbye to a lot of those working and service dogs that society relies upon.


----------



## splashgirl45 (23 November 2021)

on the whole its the owners not the dogs, now some of them i would happily put a needle in !!  i dont know the answer but getting rid of all large dog breeds isnt it...eliminating back street breeders and puppy farms would be a start..all breeders should be registered so dogs with dodgy temperaments could be traced back and the breeders shut down..,  we all know nothing will be done


----------



## Clodagh (23 November 2021)

Do many of you feel there should be no controls? 
It seems we have ban them or have no issue with them.
There must be some middle grounds where the idiots that leave these incredibly dangerous dogs in situations where they can kill people can be monitored.
The old fashioned dog license would be a start.


----------



## bonny (23 November 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Do many of you feel there should be no controls?
It seems we have ban them or have no issue with them.
There must be some middle grounds where the idiots that leave these incredibly dangerous dogs in situations where they can kill people can be monitored.
The old fashioned dog license would be a start.
		
Click to expand...

Who decides who is an idiot and who isn’t ? I can’t see any workable scheme that would help.


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (23 November 2021)

bonny said:



			Who decides who is an idiot and who isn’t ? I can’t see any workable scheme that would help.
		
Click to expand...

Neither do I really - I absolutely don't and never have supported culling dogs en masse, so the only solution would be to temperament test all pits and other 'attack' (can't think of the right word) breed dogs as the poster listed that I quoted before, all dogs trained as service or protection dogs would also test obedience in a bite situation or recall situation to ensure adequate control of protection commands. Temprament test to include casual encounters with all size dogs, well behaved children, people and visitors to the home eg: mail man. Any anxiety around being left or food aggression etc tested for etc etc..

For those that fail the temperament test the focus should then be switched onto the owner and whether the owner can pass a test to show that they are resonsible and have the correct experience to control the dog. It could then also be enforced that a muzzle be worn at all times outside of the home, and minimum fencing requirements for containing in the garden. Muzzle dogs marked with some sort of tag, collar colour or mark on the ear.

All breeders then, without breed discrimination, should be licensed and fully checked out - all litters declared and all pups temperament tested before leaving the breeders home at a centralised centre.

Should a dog either prove itself unreliable, be seen without a muzzle on more than one occasion or fail the temperament test and the owner isn't responsible or willing to work with a trainer and re-test, then the dog is destroyed.

All imports will be checked and temperament tested as part of their quarantine upon being imported. All tails/ears docked dogs are immediately sent back and not allowed in the country.

Is any of that pratically and financially remotely feasible, no. Will anything close to that ever happen? No.  We will just comtinue destroying random dogs due to arbitrary measurement and ban pitbull types but without really policing it which just makes them more desireable? Absolutely!


----------



## splashgirl45 (23 November 2021)

absolutely agree.  nothing constructive will b e done..


----------



## DabDab (23 November 2021)

CorvusCorax said:



			So, the people who think these breeds should be wiped out en masse, would you, personally, put the needle in a dog that has done nothing wrong?
And again, wave goodbye to a lot of those working and service dogs that society relies upon.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think any breed should be wiped out en masse, and I agree with your post up thread. But I'm not sure if you are being a bit sensitive - I thought this discussion was about certain bull breeds, not GSDs or similar...? And the discussion around the likes of Pitbulls is that they don't have a use really so the only draw is as a pet. And of people that want them as pets, there are a decent amount for whom the guard dog element is the main driver. 

I love staffies but I wouldn't want to negotiate the minefield of acquiring a dog/cat neutral one. That's not me being judgemental, just realistic based on my own experience. And I think that the aggressive traits should be bred out of them, but for all their belly aching no bull breed society that I am aware of has actively said that they will introduce vigilant screening for aggression


----------



## skinnydipper (23 November 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			Should a dog either prove itself unreliable, be seen without a muzzle
		
Click to expand...

Muzzle and on leash, please.

Twice in recent weeks I've had to deal with an aggressive lurcher wearing a muzzle who wanted to inflict harm on my dog.  The owner was most definitely in the idiot category.


----------



## CorvusCorax (23 November 2021)

DabDab said:



			I don't think any breed should be wiped out en masse, and I agree with your post up thread. But I'm not sure if you are being a bit sensitive - I thought this discussion was about certain bull breeds, not GSDs or similar...? And the discussion around the likes of Pitbulls is that they don't have a use really so the only draw is as a pet. And of people that want them as pets, there are a decent amount for whom the guard dog element is the main driver.

I love staffies but I wouldn't want to negotiate the minefield of acquiring a dog/cat neutral one. That's not me being judgemental, just realistic based on my own experience. And I think that the aggressive traits should be bred out of them, but for all their belly aching no bull breed society that I am aware of has actively said that they will introduce vigilant screening for aggression
		
Click to expand...

It was more a response to our resident contrarian who said that 'a lot of people' would like to get rid of a whole host of breeds listed by GSD Woman. It's a bit like people who are pro the death penalty, if they had to drop the rope or administer the injection, they might not have the same view.


----------



## bonny (23 November 2021)

CorvusCorax said:



			It was more a response to our resident contrarian who said that 'a lot of people' would like to get rid of a whole host of breeds listed by GSD Woman. It's a bit like people who are pro the death penalty, if they had to drop the rope or administer the injection, they might not have the same view.
		
Click to expand...

I take it that’s me and yes I think a lot of people would like to have no large potentially dangerous dogs living amongst them. I suspect everyone on here has dogs and don’t live on estates where pit bulls etc are an issue. It’s easy to sit in your nice rural home and discuss idiots elsewhere when you don’t have to live amongst them, or raise your children without worrying.
There has been a huge risen in dog numbers and for non dog people it’s becoming an issue anyway even without a dangerous dog living next door. It must be a nightmare for some families.


----------



## twiggy2 (23 November 2021)

I honestly think we were in a better position before we banned these breeds, all we have done is push the breeding of them underground and made them a more sought after status ymbol with no regulation on breeding or temperament testing, for me it means there is less and less dilution of the undesirable traits because less good breeding is going on.


----------



## P3LH (23 November 2021)

in my opinion - and it is just mine so feel free to shoot down, I don’t believe these dogs are any more likely to attack me than the rough collie and pair of Pembroke corgis sat in front of me now (some probably a lot less than one of the corgis!) but the issue is when they do, they are capable of inflicting more damage than them due to their drive, jaw strength and high pain threshold even if physical intervention was used.

Something like a Caucasian ovcharka is totally different but in terms of the banned breeds no, I don’t think every one is going to kill me. I am wary of some I see locally, based on experience with them.

I live at the edge of the city but not in green and pleasant lands, and I do live on a housing estate - there is a rise in these XL bully types which are quite pit like, amongst others. Again I find it hit and miss depending on who is at the other end of the lead, but there are other breeds that spring to mind also like that.

It is a difficult one and there isn’t a black and white answer. When I was very small I was surrounded by bull breeds, mastiffs and Dobes. They were succeeded by wry working terriers who were more generally much sharper and a worry as much easier to push to bite - perhaps I have a slightly bias view as a result


----------



## Clodagh (23 November 2021)

bonny said:



			There has been a huge risen in dog numbers and for non dog people it’s becoming an issue anyway even without a dangerous dog living next door. It must be a nightmare for some families.
		
Click to expand...

I think this is the nub, everyone seems to have a dog these days, you used to only have one if you were in a situation to look after one (in the main) but with our instant gratification lifestyles these days people just don’t think.
Poverty can’t be such a big deal if everyone can afford a dog, right? (I don’t think it’s so simple). And I think as a race we are getting more stupid.


----------



## DabDab (23 November 2021)

CorvusCorax said:



			It was more a response to our resident contrarian who said that 'a lot of people' would like to get rid of a whole host of breeds listed by GSD Woman. It's a bit like people who are pro the death penalty, if they had to drop the rope or administer the injection, they might not have the same view.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, I get that, but I really don't think that the majority of people put GSDs and Pitbulls in the same mental bracket, because it is just such totally different sets of risk factors between those two types of breed. (I appreciate that Bonny is certainly not the majority of people and has her own views on the matter 😉)

In my mind dogs breeds are more like chemicals - the in-bred characteristics of different breeds and types have different associated types of risk. And laws regulating the possession and breeding of different types should be tailored to the different type of risk


----------



## ester (23 November 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I think this is the nub, everyone seems to have a dog these days, you used to only have one if you were in a situation to look after one (in the main) but with our instant gratification lifestyles these days people just don’t think.
Poverty can’t be such a big deal if everyone can afford a dog, right? (I don’t think it’s so simple). And I think as a race we are getting more stupid.
		
Click to expand...

Didn't everyone just turf their dogs out on the street for the day in the olden days


----------



## Clodagh (23 November 2021)

ester said:



			Didn't everyone just turf their dogs out on the street for the day in the olden days 

Click to expand...

And at least they were well socialised as a result 🤣


----------



## DabDab (23 November 2021)

Clodagh said:



			And at least they were well socialised as a result 🤣
		
Click to expand...

And well exercised with a varied diet


----------



## twiggy2 (23 November 2021)

Clodagh said:



			And at least they were well socialised as a result 🤣
		
Click to expand...




DabDab said:



			And well exercised with a varied diet 

Click to expand...

Yes to both of these comments and of course if a dog is of a banned breed and you end up with in ebay default, cos you felt sorry for it etc etc then you can't give it either of the above things to help it become and well adjust member of society so the problem of them becoming unpleasant dogs is more probable


----------



## MotherOfChickens (23 November 2021)

ester said:



			Didn't everyone just turf their dogs out on the street for the day in the olden days 

Click to expand...

yes they did-certainly on the estate I lived on as a child in the 70s in surrey and OH’s in Glasgow. But they were almost all proper mongrels, lab mixes that were not that big and mostly had dog and people skills (although OH says that wasn’t the case in Drumchapel, but the people arguably didn’t have people skills, although they did have katanas).

Our own dogs were not turned out but neither did dad sweat it if the dog went roaming.


----------



## CorvusCorax (23 November 2021)

bonny said:



			I take it that’s me and yes I think a lot of people would like to have no large potentially dangerous dogs living amongst them. I suspect everyone on here has dogs and don’t live on estates where pit bulls etc are an issue. It’s easy to sit in your nice rural home and discuss idiots elsewhere when you don’t have to live amongst them, or raise your children without worrying.
There has been a huge risen in dog numbers and for non dog people it’s becoming an issue anyway even without a dangerous dog living next door. It must be a nightmare for some families.
		
Click to expand...

I rent a small bungalow in a town, but thanks.


----------



## Moobli (23 November 2021)

One of the points not yet raised (I don’t think) is that the majority of the fatal attacks in the UK take place in the home by a dog owned by a member of the family.  Often the dogs are not socialised, properly trained and are under exercised.  So rather than focusing on banning breeds per se, it might be better to focus on education surrounding choosing a breed suited to level of experience, time, commitment and skill of the owner.  That said, a Labrador temperament will likely be more forgiving of the lack of proper care than a pit bull or similar.


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (23 November 2021)

Moobli said:



			One of the points not yet raised (I don’t think) is that the majority of the fatal attacks in the UK take place in the home by a dog owned by a member of the family.  Often the dogs are not socialised, properly trained and are under exercised.  So rather than focusing on banning breeds per se, it might be better to focus on education surrounding choosing a breed suited to level of experience, time, commitment and skill of the owner.  That said, a Labrador temperament will likely be more forgiving of the lack of proper care than a pit bull or similar.
		
Click to expand...

_But I want a big angry looking dog to take photos of to impress my mates on Facebook - even better if it has a 2 inch thick gold plated chunky necklace looking chain for a collar. _

Being facetious of course, but the sub-section who this would apply to literally have the above as the main requirement of their dog and that’s about it. Some like to cuddle it now and again.


----------



## stangs (23 November 2021)

Strikes me that everything ends up boiling down to why do we have all these aggressive young men that are stereotypically the owners of dangerous, deliberately poorly-socialised bull-type dogs, and are pretty much passing on their aggressive tendencies to their dogs? Knife crime is rising too atm. 

Get rid of bull breeds and these types will settle for Rotties, Malis, Cane Corsos etc. The dogs are just a means to an end. The end is the issue to be addressed.


----------



## GSD Woman (24 November 2021)

stangs, you nailed it.  A county in Maryland banned pits. The wanna bes and gangstas got Cane Corsos, Filas and Dogos. These are not nice breeds to deal with if they aren't well trained and well controlled. Better knife crimes than guns.  

Today while I was out training tracking some jackalope pulled up where we were parked and just let his untrained dog run up aggressively to a puppy that was on lead. I was nice enough to use the Lord's name in vain and yell at him to put his dog on leash.  I couldn't hear his reply but the man with the puppy told him if he didn't have a reliable recall then his dog needs to be on a leash. It ended with the man flipping us off when he left.  I believe he was also drunk. How does one control a bleepety bleep like that?  And the dog was some sort of mix.

As far as living near people with pits, I do.  I also see a good number of them at work.  they are on the large much easier to deal with than the effing doodles.  

I don't know the answer, especially in a country as large as the USA which has much bigger problems.


----------



## palo1 (24 November 2021)

stangs said:



			Strikes me that everything ends up boiling down to why do we have all these aggressive young men that are stereotypically the owners of dangerous, deliberately poorly-socialised bull-type dogs, and are pretty much passing on their aggressive tendencies to their dogs? Knife crime is rising too atm.

Get rid of bull breeds and these types will settle for Rotties, Malis, Cane Corsos etc. The dogs are just a means to an end. The end is the issue to be addressed.
		
Click to expand...

This is true.  Equally and equally sadly it seems to me that there are also stereotypically women who take on 'difficult' or 'rescue from a difficult home' dogs that they are unable to rehab and unable to afford the specialist behavioural help that the dogs need.  I see this probably more than the urban young men with scary dog type situation but that is because of where I live.  The dogs I see are pretty much held captive by people who 'love' them and want them to be ok but have nowhere near the resources or knowledge to make that happen.  There they are, covered in harnesses with warnings with the dogs on constant alert (owners too actually) trying to make some kind of life as they avoid triggers and difficult situations and all manner of other things.  Those dogs are still 'weaponised' but there is no control of how dogs can be bought and sold at all here.  

The issues of why and how people want to 'rescue' one of these dogs is the flip side of why people want a scary dog and for me both of those scenarios are related to our total dislocation from understanding and having a healthy relationship with our companion animals/the planet.  That is a hugely sweeping statement of course but as I watch my neighbour walking her pug, puffing away, dressed in his Christmas jumper whilst her out of control boxer who was 'rescued' from an urban home and who has form for sheep killing, drags her here there and everywhere whilst she exhaustedly explains how she is 'rehabbing' him  (not successfully so far but lambs killed have been her mothers...) I just despair of the lot of dogs in our time. 

I do know, thankfully, loads of really great dog owners and lovely well adjusted dogs but the fact that I am increasingly seeing problematical and barely rescued dogs in our very rural location suggests that problems are just on the rise.  Sorry for the rant.  Neighbour's barely breathing pug and mad boxer combo send me over the edge at times...

ETA - sorry I went off the point a bit but I agree that if you try to remove every kind of 'dangerous' breed, eventually you would end up with weaponised labs/spaniels etc.  It is basically imposssible to avoid animals holding status in a modern, largely urban capitalist society.


----------



## DabDab (24 November 2021)

Moobli said:



			One of the points not yet raised (I don’t think) is that the majority of the fatal attacks in the UK take place in the home by a dog owned by a member of the family.  Often the dogs are not socialised, properly trained and are under exercised.  So rather than focusing on banning breeds per se, it might be better to focus on education surrounding choosing a breed suited to level of experience, time, commitment and skill of the owner.  That said, a Labrador temperament will likely be more forgiving of the lack of proper care than a pit bull or similar.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, this is what I was (badly) getting at up thread, re different types posing different types of risk.

The current breed specific legislation is clearly pants and doesn't work, but I would support a licensing system with a breed/type specific element. I don't think just any old numpty should be able to go out and buy (and breed) a GSD, but the likes of you and CC obviously should. Likewise, terriers often get a bad rep (just read this thread😂)  because a lot of people don't seem to 'get' them and they are not the best with children. And so on and so forth.

Sensible people with a bit of experience know what they can deal with, and wouldn't take on a dog that is unsuitable for their training abilities/lifestyle/home setup. But there are an awful lot of numpties or people who just haven't got the experience to judge, and I think a clear set of rules/tests to pass to get a licence would go some way to stopping the clueless just buying anything they fancy.

I've seen a handful of dog fights, but only one proper attack where the attacking dog was unprovoked and really meant business, and in that on the aggressor was a Labrador. It was genuinely terrifying, like it just flipped, with no normal dog language signals beforehand that it was going to happen. I also have a friend whose daughter was badly attacked by a Labrador as a small child (and it was actually the household rottie that came to her rescue). I agree that a Labrador is unlikely to maul someone the way a Pitbull might, because it is not really in their genetic makeup, but the "labradors are affable" assumption I think is a little dangerous in itself.


----------



## YorksG (24 November 2021)

Agree with DabDab, labs could do some damage, given that they can puncture tins with their teeth!


----------



## P3LH (24 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			Agree with DabDab, labs could do some damage, given that they can puncture tins with their teeth!
		
Click to expand...

We fostered a lab when I was younger, who took a chunk out of a family friends abdomen one day, completely unprovoked.

Any dog can do damage. It just comes down to what level of power, force and capability which is behind the dog doing it. And how much control, sense and brain power is at the other end of the lead.


----------



## bonny (24 November 2021)

P3LH said:



			We fostered a lab when I was younger, who took a chunk out of a family friends abdomen one day, completely unprovoked.

Any dog can do damage. It just comes down to what level of power, force and capability which is behind the dog doing it. And how much control, sense and brain power is at the other end of the lead.
		
Click to expand...

I was just away looking for a recent case that was in the news of a woman mauled by the family Pitbull who inflicted terrible injuries including ripping off her arm and she was expected to lose both her legs....anyway I googled woman mauled by dog and ended up reading some of the cases. It’s gruesome, really gruesome, an example being a woman in Virginia who took her two pit bulls for a walk who turned on her, mauled her to death and then ate her. A friend was quoted as saying they were lovely dogs, would smother you in kisses.
Everybody saying Labrador’s, terriers, cockerpoos and whatever else on this thread are as bad/worse than pit bulls are missing the point of this thread which was what to do about banned breeds. Yes, all dogs can and do bite but that’s a different argument.


----------



## YorksG (24 November 2021)

bonny said:



			I was just away looking for a recent case that was in the news of a woman mauled by the family Pitbull who inflicted terrible injuries including ripping off her arm and she was expected to lose both her legs....anyway I googled woman mauled by dog and ended up reading some of the cases. It’s gruesome, really gruesome, an example being a woman in Virginia who took her two pit bulls for a walk who turned on her, mauled her to death and then ate her. A friend was quoted as saying they were lovely dogs, would smother you in kisses.
Everybody saying Labrador’s, terriers, cockerpoos and whatever else on this thread are as bad/worse than pit bulls are missing the point of this thread which was what to do about banned breeds. Yes, all dogs can and do bite but that’s a different argument.
		
Click to expand...

By your argument though, surely all dogs should be banned?


----------



## bonny (24 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			By your argument though, surely all dogs should be banned?
		
Click to expand...

Where did I say that ? I was saying, badly maybe, that if the argument comes down to all dogs can bite then nothing will be done about dangerous dogs, and I’m talking about dogs that kill children and adults, rip limbs off etc. 
Anyway, this argument just goes round in circles and we all know nothing will change in reality so what’s the point.


----------



## GSD Woman (24 November 2021)

Bonnie, if that is the case I'm thinking of the dogs were recent rescues with a history of bites. Dogs that should have had the pink juice not be sent to another state to kill someone.


----------



## Clodagh (24 November 2021)

GSD Woman said:



			Bonnie, if that is the case I'm thinking of the dogs were recent rescues with a history of bites. Dogs that should have had the pink juice not be sent to another state to kill someone.
		
Click to expand...

I must admit I don’t understand the rehoming of a dog that has aggressively bitten.


----------



## GSD Woman (24 November 2021)

Neither do I. Too many rescues here are all sunshine, rainbows and fairy facts about aggressive dogs.


----------



## skinnydipper (24 November 2021)

How wonderful it is that there are so many perfect owners with perfect dogs but what, I wonder, are you going to do with all the reactive/aggressive dogs that people had from puppies where the owner either messed up big time or circumstances were beyond their control (dog with fear aggression from being attacked for example)?


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (24 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			How wonderful it is that there are so many perfect owners with perfect dogs but what, I wonder, are you going to do with all the reactive/aggressive dogs that people had from puppies where the owner either messed up big time or circumstances were beyond their control (dog with fear aggression from being attacked for example)?
		
Click to expand...

Dog undergo's temperament test, if it fails then the owners undergo a 'I'm not a moron I can own this dog resposibly and have half an idea how to train/manage it' test. If owners pass then get the dog back, with condition it is to be muzzled at all times and on a lead and minimum fence requirements. If the dog and owners fail then dog is PTS.


----------



## twiggy2 (24 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			How wonderful it is that there are so many perfect owners with perfect dogs but what, I wonder, are you going to do with all the reactive/aggressive dogs that people had from puppies where the owner either messed up big time or circumstances were beyond their control (dog with fear aggression from being attacked for example)?
		
Click to expand...

I have recently been in the position of owning a dog from a puppy who experienced one negative event and became a biter, it was not her fault but with our lifestyle and hers it was not manageable in a way that meant she was not dealing with either a lot of stress or a lot of kennel time, she has been pts. 
Far from a perfect dog owner but the dog is at peace and everyone is safe.
A very hard thing to do.


----------



## skinnydipper (24 November 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			Dog undergo's temperament test, if it fails then the owners undergo a 'I'm not a moron I can own this dog resposibly and have half an idea how to train/manage it' test. If owners pass then get the dog back, with condition it is to be muzzled at all times and on a lead and minimum fence requirements. If the dog and owners fail then dog is PTS.
		
Click to expand...

I am probably going to regret asking this but how would you test the temperament of a fearful dog?


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (24 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			I am probably going to regret asking this but how would you test the temperament of a fearful dog?
		
Click to expand...

I haven't thought through the semantics of my idea as it's not something that will ever happen, but I would say that within reason, the source of the aggression/reactivity doesn't matter in so much as the dog would still fail the test, then the owners would be tested and so on as per my previous comment. Obviously however a fearful dog has more potential to progress into a balanced dog eventually and so the owners would be tested to see whether they had the ability to overcome this, or whether they would be able to work with a trainer well versed in it. Leash/muzzle rule would still apply


----------



## skinnydipper (24 November 2021)

twiggy2 said:



			I have recently been in the position of owning a dog from a puppy who experienced one negative event and became a biter, it was not her fault but with our lifestyle and hers it was not manageable in a way that meant she was not dealing with either a lot of stress or a lot of kennel time, she has been pts.
Far from a perfect dog owner but the dog is at peace and everyone is safe.
A very hard thing to do.
		
Click to expand...


Sorry to hear that twiggy.  I know you will have done your best.  Take care.


----------



## palo1 (24 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			How wonderful it is that there are so many perfect owners with perfect dogs but what, I wonder, are you going to do with all the reactive/aggressive dogs that people had from puppies where the owner either messed up big time or circumstances were beyond their control (dog with fear aggression from being attacked for example)?
		
Click to expand...

I don't think perfection is necessary.  I think a dog licensing scheme should be reinstated and incidents of aggression/anti-social behaviour taken very seriously; potentially with dogs pts and owners refused further licence to keep dogs.  It isn't, to my mind, the worst thing for a dog facing a very difficult and/or restricted life to be pts.  It is sad and ordinarily unnecessary and it is infuriating that people make a mess of keeping dogs.  I think that may also help to dry up the somewhat unsavoury presence of 'for profit' rescue centres and discourage some people from casually purchasing a dog spontaneously and/or totally failing to train or socialise that dog. 

My sister's dog was killed in front of her 6 year old son by a dog that regularly attacked other dogs whilst on a lead/under 'close' control.  It is devastating and that attack could easily have been on a child so I do feel quite strongly about this because of that experience.  It was devastatingly sad, horrific to view and potentially involved human casualties and fatalities.  It's possible that that dog had become like that due to something outside the owner's control and those dogs that are in this situation are more difficult to deal with - I haven't got a solution for that other than again, incidents of trouble in public may need the owner to agree to conditions of licence for that dog.  If that had been the case in the above scenario, that dog would have been pts long before it killed my sister's dog. 

Of course, the licensing would pay, in part, for the policing of dogs but increasing dog attacks on people and of course on horse riders may make that politically and financially more acceptable. 

None of this would necessarily prevent dog attacks from happening but it would make dog ownership and handling far less consequence-free and would potentially make owning of dog and exercising it in public less of an entitlement and more of a privelege that is earnt through reasonable control.  I dunno, I worked in Parliament last time this was brought up (a long time ago lol!) and on the whole it isn't something parliamentarians really care about I don't think, even when tragic incidents keep happening.  It makes me feel quite sick when I think of the damage that even a normal dog can inflict on a person (or another animal) but many people don't think the same.


----------



## twiggy2 (24 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			Sorry to hear that twiggy.  I know you will have done your best.  Take care.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you
The biggest thing for me was the fear of passing her on as everyone seems to think they can 'fix' them and many talk a good talk but just like horses few people can actually deliver the goods and its the animals that suffer.


----------



## YorksG (24 November 2021)

One issue I would have with the idea of people reporting behaviour problems in dogs and action being taken on that.  I do feel that if there is evidence of biting, then action can be taken, however other problematic behaviour could well be fabricated. Sadly it is far from unusual in personal/neighbour disputes for "authorities " to be complained to purely from spite!


----------



## ellieb (24 November 2021)

I agree - and also, would the powers that be distinguish between aggression and prey drive? There are sad cases where dogs with high prey drive wind up killing a puppy/cat/livestock because the owner disregards advice to muzzle them/keep them on lead. Totally not the dog's fault and certainly not related to being aggressive to humans, but people love to say 'it'll be a child next!' in those sort of cases.


----------



## skinnydipper (24 November 2021)

3 of my own dogs were attacked, one very badly and due to the severity of her injuries the police were informed.   I would describe the attack by the husky as predatory aggression, it wanted to kill her.  I don't believe it was the first time any of those dogs had attacked others and I felt the dogs should have been muzzled and under close control.

Fearfulness and reactivity shouldn't necessarily mean a one way ticket to the vet.  A lot can be done to help a fearful dog with behaviour modification and training.


----------



## twiggy2 (24 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			3 of my own dogs were attacked, one very badly and due to the severity of her injuries the police were informed.   I would describe the attack by the husky as predatory aggression, it wanted to kill her.  I don't believe it was the first time any of those dogs had attacked others and I felt the dogs should have been muzzled and under close control.

But fearfulness and reactivity shouldn't mean a one way ticket to the vet.  It is possible to help those dogs with behaviour modification and training.
		
Click to expand...

In the right hands fear aggression can be managed, it never goes away and those magical hands are few and far between and the people who can give lifelong management without any slip ups ever are like hens teeth.
A dog (any animal) does not know that the moments before pts are its last and many animals live terrible lives because people won't make that decision, I have had and managed fear aggressive dogs before (reactive dogs are a different thing for me) and the time and management are monumental.


----------



## Clodagh (24 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			How wonderful it is that there are so many perfect owners with perfect dogs but what, I wonder, are you going to do with all the reactive/aggressive dogs that people had from puppies where the owner either messed up big time or circumstances were beyond their control (dog with fear aggression from being attacked for example)?
		
Click to expand...

If the dog cannot be kept from biting then it should be pts. Dogs are not so indispensable that they should be held sacrosanct until they kill or seriously maim someone. 

Twiggy did a sensible thing, and more people should do the same.


----------



## CorvusCorax (24 November 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			Obviously however a fearful dog has more potential to progress into a balanced dog eventually
		
Click to expand...

That's debatable


----------



## DabDab (24 November 2021)

CorvusCorax said:



			That's debatable
		
Click to expand...

Might just be something to do with my personality/experiences, but I've always found fear driven behaviours in both dogs and horses by far the hardest to work with.


----------



## ellieb (24 November 2021)

Just reminded me of this video of Sophia Yin using classical counterconditioning on a Jack Russell that's fearful of being blown on - such a great, concise example of changing that automatic fear response into joy! (obviously he's exercising some bite inhibition and threatening rather than full on attacking)


----------



## Clodagh (25 November 2021)

ellieb said:



			Just reminded me of this video of Sophia Yin using classical counterconditioning on a Jack Russell that's fearful of being blown on - such a great, concise example of changing that automatic fear response into joy! (obviously he's exercising some bite inhibition and threatening rather than full on attacking) 





Click to expand...

That’s very good. I wonder though..,
How many people have her reading of the situation and timing skills and patience.
Can that dog now be declared safe in all situations?


----------



## planete (25 November 2021)

Clodagh said:



			That’s very good. I wonder though..,
How many people have her reading of the situation and timing skills and patience.
Can that dog now be declared safe in all situations?
		
Click to expand...

You need the help of a very clued up behaviourist (not the average dog trainer)  and a very committed owner to keep up the training and the management needed.  Eventually you should end up with a safe dog IF the inborn temperament is ok.  Big IF.


----------



## Clodagh (25 November 2021)

planete said:



			You need the help of a very clued up behaviourist (not the average dog trainer)  and a very committed owner to keep up the training and the management needed.  Eventually you should end up with a safe dog IF the inborn temperament is ok.  Big IF.
		
Click to expand...

I’m afraid too big an if to me.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (25 November 2021)

twiggy2 said:



			I have recently been in the position of owning a dog from a puppy who experienced one negative event and became a biter, it was not her fault but with our lifestyle and hers it was not manageable in a way that meant she was not dealing with either a lot of stress or a lot of kennel time, she has been pts.
Far from a perfect dog owner but the dog is at peace and everyone is safe.
A very hard thing to do.
		
Click to expand...


That's the thing isn't it?  All dogs, whatever their breed deserve and need responsible owners, like twiggy2.  Owners who have proved themselves to be irresponsible should be banned from keeping dogs for life. That includes the owners of 'poos' that jump over walls into other people's fields and upset their sheep,  those owners who don't put their dogs on a lead on roads or other public places, those who leave their full poo-bags dangling form bushes that they pass along the way.  And, yes, I  know it would be difficult to police and won't happen.


----------



## P3LH (25 November 2021)

Clodagh said:



			If the dog cannot be kept from biting then it should be pts. Dogs are not so indispensable that they should be held sacrosanct until they kill or seriously maim someone.

Twiggy did a sensible thing, and more people should do the same.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. I have been in this position and pts too. It was a toy breed and they launched an unprovoked attack on a child. Without intervention and quick reaction that child would have been seriously damaged. I didn’t think twice although it was quite soul destroying.


----------



## skinnydipper (25 November 2021)

Sorry, folks.  I've thought of a snag with the masterplan.

I must admit I just skim over the voluminous posts so I might have missed this small detail.

How do you know the name and address of the owners of the vicious dogs.  I can tell you from experience that these are cool customers, they have been through the experience before and whereas you and I would be horrified if one of our dogs attacked another these guys aren't. Unsurprisingly they refuse to give you their details.

The police were unable to take any action following the horrific attack on my dog (her back looked like a piece of meat and it had removed muscle in two places) because I had no details for the owner.  A description of the attack, the dog and the owner were put out on a local facebook group but no one came forward with the name of the owner.

I never saw him again.  Neither have I seen the dogs/owners of the staffs or labs who attacked two of my other dogs.

These type of people don't bother to get their dogs chipped so I very much doubt they will be queuing up to take any test or apply for a license.

(interesting thing here, if you include the lurcher wearing a muzzle that tried to attack my dog recently, that's 4 different breed groups)

Also of note the staffs that were hung on my dog's neck bit once and inflicted puncture wounds whereas the husky attack was fast and furious, biting thighs and back and tearing at her flesh.

Oops, guilty of a lengthy post.


----------



## bonny (25 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			Sorry, folks.  I've thought of a snag with the masterplan.

I must admit I just skim over the voluminous posts so I might have missed this small detail.

How do you know the name and address of the owners of the vicious dogs.  I can tell you from experience that these are cool customers, they have been through the experience before and whereas you and I would be horrified if one of our dogs attacked another these guys aren't. Unsurprisingly they refuse to give you their details.

The police were unable to take any action following the horrific attack on my dog (her back looked like a piece of meat and it had removed muscle in two places) because I had no details for the owner.  A description of the attack, the dog and the owner were put out on a local facebook group but no one came forward with the name of the owner.

I never saw him again.  Neither have I seen the dogs/owners of the staffs or labs who attacked two of my other dogs.

These type of people don't bother to get their dogs chipped so I very much doubt they will be queuing up to take any test or apply for a license.

(interesting thing here, if you include the lurcher wearing a muzzle that tried to attack my dog recently, that's 4 different breed groups)

Also of note the staffs that were hung on my dog's neck bit once and inflicted puncture wounds whereas the husky attack was fast and furious, biting thighs and back and tearing at her flesh.

Oops, guilty of a lengthy post.
		
Click to expand...

We were discussing dogs that attack humans, not dog on dog attacks which we all know the police aren’t interested in. I suspect that’s the right thing for the police to do otherwise we would need an army of police officers looking into whose dog did what, who started it etc


----------



## skinnydipper (25 November 2021)

bonny said:



*We were discussing dogs that attack humans, not dog on dog attacks* which we all know the police aren’t interested in. I suspect that’s the right thing for the police to do otherwise we would need an army of police officers looking into whose dog did what, who started it etc
		
Click to expand...

You might have been, but if you read more carefully instead of jumping on my posts you would have seen that someone up-thread mentioned a family dog being killed by another dog.


----------



## bonny (25 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			You might have been, but if you read more carefully instead of jumping on my posts you would have seen that someone up-thread mentioned a family dog being killed by another dog.
		
Click to expand...

I wasn’t jumping on your post but pointing out that dog attacks are a different thing to banned breed types attacking humans.


----------



## skinnydipper (25 November 2021)

bonny said:



			I wasn’t jumping on your post but pointing out that dog attacks are a different thing to banned breed types attacking humans.
		
Click to expand...

Okay, bonny, so do you think that the type of people who breed or buy banned breeds are going to put themselves forward to take tests or apply for a license because I don't think they would.


----------



## bonny (25 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			Okay, bonny, so do you think that the type of people who breed or buy banned breeds and going to put themselves forward to take tests or apply for a license because I don't think they would.
		
Click to expand...

We don’t have tests or licences so rather a strange question !


----------



## CorvusCorax (25 November 2021)

At least one part of the UK still has dog licences and those who don't comply can and do end up in court/prosecuted.


----------



## skinnydipper (25 November 2021)

bonny said:



			We don’t have tests or licences so rather a strange question !
		
Click to expand...

Not really, not if you have been reading the suggestions in the posts above.


----------



## bonny (25 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			Not really, not if you have been reading the suggestions in the posts above.
		
Click to expand...

Then ask the people suggesting that, it certainly wasn’t me


----------



## skinnydipper (25 November 2021)

CorvusCorax said:



			At least one part of the UK still has dog licences and those who don't comply can and do end up in court/prosecuted.
		
Click to expand...

How does that work with regard to banned breeds, CC?   Can people apply for a licence for a breed that it is illegal to own?


----------



## Clodagh (25 November 2021)

SD, are you against any controls at all? Anyone own anything?


----------



## skinnydipper (25 November 2021)

Clodagh said:



			SD, are you against any controls at all? Anyone own anything?
		
Click to expand...

On the contrary.  I think that the breeds banned were banned for good reason and that the ban should be upheld and enforced.


----------



## Fellewell (25 November 2021)

I'm very much in the 'deed not breed' camp.
As we know, decent horses are frequently ruined by nervous handling and the same is true of dogs. I was at a clinic where an owner was struggling with a completely 'out of control' /'dangerous' horse. The owner reeled off a series of things the horse didn't like/couldn't cope with to the trainer who pretended to listen while observing the horse. He then whispered 'spoilt brat more like' as he took the lead rope. The transformation was instant, it was as if the horse had exhaled for the first time in its life. That's the value of calmness and experience.
I've always found reactive dogs to be real people pleasers. They love to channel all that energy somewhere and really want a job to do. Unfortunately a nervous owner will be training passively, especially with a dog they want to protect them. Dogs love to oblige and if they pick up that you're pleased they've created a half mile exclusion zone around your house they will do their best to maintain it. But you can't do this without creating an 'off switch' because that's where it all goes wrong IMHO.


----------



## CorvusCorax (25 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			How does that work with regard to banned breeds, CC?   Can people apply for a licence for a breed that it is illegal to own?
		
Click to expand...

There have been cases where dogs have been licenced as a crossbreed or another breed that, have then come to attention of the issuing council for different reasons and have been impounded/destroyed, rightly or wrongly.

However it is difficult to prove a dog is or is not a pure bred or comes from the parents people say it does, when it is not registered and there is no DNA databank, that's where you have to go and use weights and measurements, often using another country or body's breed standard, like for the American Pit Bull Terrier, which is not even a recognised breed by the FCI-recognised organisation in the UK, the Kennel Club.
This throws into question the veracity of the whole way dogs are 'registered'. Without DNA, you can't really call a registry a registry, it's just a list of names that you pay for a business to hold.
In fact a registry of pure bred animals which does **not** use DNA is in contravention of EU guidelines, but I guess that's a moot point now.


----------



## skinnydipper (25 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			On the contrary.  I think that the breeds banned were banned for good reason and that the ban should be upheld and enforced.
		
Click to expand...

That is not to say that when identified these dogs should be put to sleep but they should be spayed/neutered and leashed and muzzled when in public places.


----------



## CorvusCorax (25 November 2021)

stangs said:



			Strikes me that everything ends up boiling down to why do we have all these aggressive young men that are stereotypically the owners of dangerous, deliberately poorly-socialised bull-type dogs, and are pretty much passing on their aggressive tendencies to their dogs? Knife crime is rising too atm.

Get rid of bull breeds and these types will settle for Rotties, Malis, Cane Corsos etc. The dogs are just a means to an end. The end is the issue to be addressed.
		
Click to expand...

This is such a good point.

On any forum or any discussion or any group of people discussing working dogs, you will get a small subsection of men, and it is always men, talking about REAL DOGS and STREET DOGS and LE DOGS who will BITE YOU FOR REAL and that silly sports dogs are weak PREY JUNKIES and can't do the job and won't protect you.
I'm happy with my 'imaginary dogs' because I don't need protection, don't need to prove a point and I don't have a small willy and live in my Mum's basement.


----------



## bonny (25 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			That is not to say that when identified these dogs should be put to sleep but they should be spayed/neutered and leashed and muzzled when in public places.
		
Click to expand...

That was the what the dangerous dog act said some 30 years ago, it’s not exactly worked has it !


----------



## Cortez (25 November 2021)

I didn't realise you guys don't have dog licenses over there. That's a bit mad, makes any kind of regulation almost impossible. We have to have licences to own dogs here, and they are checked by the dog warden - do you still have those?


----------



## Smitty (25 November 2021)

There was the very sad and shocking case of a great grandmother with dementia who was attacked and killed in her own garden by 2 dogs that had gotten out of their home and broken through her fence.  This was over Easter in the Midlands I think.  

I believe they were American bulldogs, but one report I remember said the police had removed them to do tests!!!   Err, to what end?   In my mind they ought to have been destroyed there and then and any tests could be carried out after.


----------



## skinnydipper (25 November 2021)

Fellewell said:



			I'm very much in the 'deed not breed' camp.
		
Click to expand...

So am I, up to a point.

I can't see any good reason for owning a Tosa, Fila, Dogo or APBT in the UK.


----------



## CorvusCorax (25 November 2021)

Tests include how a dog reacts to certain stimuli, bite strength etc. A boxer or lab cross may not react the same way as an American Bulldog.


----------



## Smitty (25 November 2021)

Cortez said:



			I didn't realise you guys don't have dog licenses over there. That's a bit mad, makes any kind of regulation almost impossible. We have to have licences to own dogs here, and they are checked by the dog warden - do you still have those?
		
Click to expand...

But, I'm happy to get one for my pet terrier.  Not sure your average dog fighter or drug dealer would bother for his 'weapon' dog ..


----------



## CorvusCorax (25 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			So am I, up to a point.

I can't see any good reason for owning a Tosa, Fila, Dogo or APBT in the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Realistically, how many of the other breeds apart from APBT were actually in the UK when the legislation was put in place? Or now, even?


----------



## skinnydipper (25 November 2021)

Fellewell said:



			've always found reactive dogs to be real people pleasers. They love to channel all that energy somewhere and really want a job to do. Unfortunately a nervous owner will be training passively, especially with a dog they want to protect them. Dogs love to oblige and if they pick up that you're pleased they've created a half mile exclusion zone around your house they will do their best to maintain it. But you can't do this without creating an 'off switch' because that's where it all goes wrong IMHO.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, I can't make much sense of or agree with this.


----------



## skinnydipper (25 November 2021)

CorvusCorax said:



			Realistically, how many of the other breeds apart from APBT were actually in the UK when the legislation was put in place? Or now, even?
		
Click to expand...

Well, I've never seen any of those breeds but I think I must lead a sheltered life


----------



## Cortez (25 November 2021)

Smitty said:



			But, I'm happy to get one for my pet terrier.  Not sure your average dog fighter or drug dealer would bother for his 'weapon' dog ..
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, then he'd lose his dog, that's what the dog warden does.


----------



## Clodagh (25 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			That is not to say that when identified these dogs should be put to sleep but they should be spayed/neutered and leashed and muzzled when in public places.
		
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you.


----------



## Fellewell (25 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			Sorry, I can't make much sense of or agree with this.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Fellewell (25 November 2021)

Skinnydipper, I was trying to say that we have a responsibility to be able to contain all that drive if we fancy that type of dog. They're untrained dogs but they're not necessarily bad dogs. That's all.


----------



## stangs (25 November 2021)

CorvusCorax said:



			Realistically, how many of the other breeds apart from APBT were actually in the UK when the legislation was put in place? Or now, even?
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn’t be able to distinguish between a Fila and most mastiff breeds, or a Tosa and a dog with a lot of Rhodesian Ridgeback blood. Dogo Argentinos are probably the most distinctive but could easily be mixed up with a white American Bulldog cross. I mean, I doubt that there are many - if any, in the case of the Tosa - but who would be able to tell if there were?


----------



## Smitty (25 November 2021)

Cortez said:



			Yeah, then he'd los9 e his dog, that's what the dog warden does.
		
Click to expand...

I believe we have a part-time one here!!  I do entirely agree with you by the way but not sure it would be a deterrant in practice.


----------



## splashgirl45 (25 November 2021)

interesting report on bbc east tonight, family pet stolen from southend, they showed cctv footage of her being taken and she has now been recovered...the dog is an american bulldog with cropped ears and they have another in the home, couldnt see if that had cropped ears as well...both dogs look very friendly but also have that tough look....


----------



## Clodagh (25 November 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			interesting report on bbc east tonight, family pet stolen from southend, they showed cctv footage of her being taken and she has now been recovered...the dog is an american bulldog with cropped ears and they have another in the home, couldnt see if that had cropped ears as well...both dogs look very friendly but also have that tough look....
		
Click to expand...

I’m glad she was found. A friend shared her missing post. I thought she was gorgeous  ☺️ . Which makes me think I need to make my mind up!


----------



## Cortez (25 November 2021)

Are cropped ears not illegal?


----------



## cbmcts (25 November 2021)

I feel that there might something that could work in real life if the law was to link training with certain freedoms and obligatory third party insurance and a license to own a dog. No particular breeds targeted, make it universal. 

All dogs to be microchipped - already in place but should be enforced.
Mandatory PL insurance - underwriting risks linked to levels of training once the dog is a year old i.e. small reduction once the dog reaches the equivalent of bronze KC,  big discount once KC silver is achieved, practically no or minimal cost once the dog is trained to KC Gold level as those dogs are going to be as safe as is reasonably possible.
A dog licence with some sort of ID like a tag that the dog has to wear in public so easily checked and the money raised by this route ring fenced for enforcement. One chance to comply or the dog is removed to kennels and a fine issued - a bit like car tax - the fine paid and a valid license and insurance in place before the dog is released. There will be some hard luck stories and potentially some 'innocent' dogs PTS to start with but in saying that, PTS is never a welfare issue. 
Dogs have to be on a short lead unless they have a certified minimum level of training in public places.
Breeders and rescues should have more responsibilities in law to ascertain where their dogs go and a lifelong obligation to either take the dog back or pay a hefty fee to another organisation for them to fulfil their obligations. Rescues to have a legal liability to responsibly rehome and a need to document their decision making. That would limit any 'misunderstandings' between new owners and the rescue. Rescues should also be licensed with minimum standards.  

In return, with these controls in place dog walkers should be given areas that they can use freely. No more blanket bans of dogs in public spaces such as parks unless another space is made for them very locally. Complaints about dogs to be treated fairly with a right of appeal and a move away from the current hysteria about certain breeds/types. 

If only I ruled the world...


----------



## Amymay (25 November 2021)

Cortez said:



			Are cropped ears not illegal?
		
Click to expand...

Yep


----------



## cbmcts (25 November 2021)

Cortez said:



			Are cropped ears not illegal?
		
Click to expand...

Yes but dogs with cropped ears can be imported. All the dogs I know with cropped ears had them done abroad - allegedly


----------



## splashgirl45 (25 November 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I’m glad she was found. A friend shared her missing post. I thought she was gorgeous  ☺️ . Which makes me think I need to make my mind up!
		
Click to expand...

agree, she looked like a nice natured dog and im glad she was recovered but if i saw her being walked in my area i would keep my little terriers on leads and go the other way, she could do significant damage if she felt like it..i still think we cant ban certain breeds but do need more controls for any dog who has an aggressive nature and is not safe around people or other dogs


----------



## Smitty (26 November 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			interesting report on bbc east tonight, family pet stolen from southend, they showed cctv footage of her being taken and she has now been recovered...the dog is an american bulldog with cropped ears and they have another in the home, couldnt see if that had cropped ears as well...both dogs look very friendly but also have that tough look....
		
Click to expand...

Stolen with the intention of what I wonder.


----------



## stangs (26 November 2021)

cbmcts said:



			Breeders and rescues should have more responsibilities in law to ascertain where their dogs go and a lifelong obligation to either take the dog back or pay a hefty fee to another organisation for them to fulfil their obligations. Rescues to have a legal liability to responsibly rehome and a need to document their decision making. That would limit any 'misunderstandings' between new owners and the rescue. Rescues should also be licensed with minimum standards.
		
Click to expand...

Agree that breeders should have more of a legal responsibility in where their dogs end up, which hopefully would reduce the amount of 'breeders' that have popped up recently making money off their bitches, but where in the country do rescues not responsibly rehome? Maybe it's just my area, but all of mine have very high standards - I'm yet to find a single rescue that would rehome to me, and I don't think I'd be a bad home.


----------



## bonny (26 November 2021)

Smitty said:



			Stolen with the intention of what I wonder.
		
Click to expand...

Selling on, these dogs are worth thousands


----------



## Pearlsasinger (26 November 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			agree, she looked like a nice natured dog and im glad she was recovered but if i saw her being walked in my area i would keep my little terriers on leads and go the other way, she could do significant damage if she felt like it..i still think we cant ban certain breeds but do need more controls for any dog who has an aggressive nature and is not safe around people or other dogs
		
Click to expand...


I would hope that you would put your dogs on a lead when you see me and my Labs.  My dogs don't approach others and I don't expect other owners to allow theirs to approach mine either.


----------



## skinnydipper (26 November 2021)

and if anyone wants a mastiff/cane corso, she is a snip at £12,345

From the ad "This dog breed is known for its intelligence and loyalty to owners family and friends but will protect from predators"

Hmm, predators - in Essex?


----------



## stangs (26 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			From the ad "This dog breed is known for its intelligence and loyalty to owners family and friends but will protect from predators"

Hmm, predators - in Essex?
		
Click to expand...

There must be some elusive Essex lions around that only locals know about. That would explain why I've just seen a Cane Corso x Boerboel for sale in the area too.


----------



## ellieb (26 November 2021)

This was the post from Hope Rescue about the guy from Cardiff who was recently prosecuted regarding his 'pocket bullies', who were all having their ears cropped, and I've seen numerous others on instagram/facebook who just seem to be getting away with it (and selling the pups for a fortune). I wonder whether it's some unscrupulous vets who agree to do this or the breeders themselves do it? 

This sentence was very telling: 'One dog in particular, Gryff, who was described by the breeder as *the future of his breeding line*, was referred to a specialist vets and was shown to suffer from a number of inherited conditions including hydrocephalus and curvature of the spine. He struggles to walk on hard surfaces and his legs will often give way.' Great breeding, there. 




__ https://www.facebook.com/HopeRescueWales/posts/4376687485686115


----------



## cbmcts (26 November 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			agree, she looked like a nice natured dog and im glad she was recovered but if i saw her being walked in my area i would keep my little terriers on leads and go the other way, she could do significant damage if she felt like it..i still think we cant ban certain breeds but do need more controls for any dog who has an aggressive nature and is not safe around people or other dogs
		
Click to expand...

It's not a given just because it's a big dog that it's aggressive. I think that there should be more of an opt in that we let our dogs interact with random dogs rather than the common assumption that our dogs should/can mix with all and sundry unless told otherwise. Yes it's lovely to see a pack of dogs playing together but far too often there are all sorts of issues caused by dogs bounding up to others and playing in packs. You're relying on all present being able to read their dogs and other dogs body language and have the control and training in place to intervene before it all goes badly wrong. IME sadly that is rare. I have a dog who wants to be friends with everyone and everything but it's both rude and too high risk to allow him to go up to other dogs without clear owner agreement. Even then, lots of people say their dog is friendly and one look will tell you it's really not!



stangs said:



			Agree that breeders should have more of a legal responsibility in where their dogs end up, which hopefully would reduce the amount of 'breeders' that have popped up recently making money off their bitches, but where in the country do rescues not responsibly rehome? Maybe it's just my area, but all of mine have very high standards - I'm yet to find a single rescue that would rehome to me, and I don't think I'd be a bad home.
		
Click to expand...

It's a small minority of rescues that do not evaluate their dogs properly before rehoming and do not do their due diligence on applicants. I see it in breed rescues, especially those who rehome directly from the original home to a new home as well as the foreign dog rescues. It is often to owners who have previously had a dog from them, maybe quite a few years before and who knows if their circumstances (health/children/other animals in the home) have changed since then? But no new home check is done... Then there's the applicants who talk a good talk, manage to hide all sorts during the checks and then kick off big time to the rescue and on social media when the dog does exactly what they were told it might do. Good documentation would protect the rescue in those circumstances and it might make potential applicants think a little harder if they had to sign paperwork that laid out the good and the bad about this particular dog. I'm not especially confident about that though...


----------



## splashgirl45 (26 November 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I would hope that you would put your dogs on a lead when you see me and my Labs.  My dogs don't approach others and I don't expect other owners to allow theirs to approach mine either.[/QUOTe

i do put mine on leads if i meet dogs i dont know but would normally walk past them, if i saw that size of bull breed i would walk the other way just to be sure that mine are safe.  i would worry that if a dog of that size and strength tried to get to mine the owner may not be able to hold them..i am lucky that i walk in a local park and we all know each other and the dogs meander along together as they know each other so well.  this morning there were 3 spaniels, 2 poo mixes,1 gsd/lab and my 2 terriers, all very good natured and friendly, i am sure all of the dogs like meeting their pals and i enjoy meeting mine..
		
Click to expand...


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (26 November 2021)

DabDab said:



			Might just be something to do with my personality/experiences, but I've always found fear driven behaviours in both dogs and horses by far the hardest to work with.
		
Click to expand...

My mistake then, I had thouht I might be wrong with that comment - with thankfully having little experience of truly fearful dogs, I just assumed that may be the case by all of the 'troublesome dog' training programmes I have seen. My 'solution' would still apply to these dogs in the same way as I explained up thread anyhow.


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (26 November 2021)

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/la...mAwIAj-X3cE3PLWy1ERfkCiU70QCFedHBM3LjlSzeWREU

A GSD X Malinois puppy to a normal household to be a pet... why!!!   They were apparently shocked when it started biting..


----------



## splashgirl45 (26 November 2021)

just seen a 2yr gsd/malinois on facebook looking for a home.  the rescue hasnt specified non pet home ,  oh dear


----------



## skinnydipper (27 November 2021)

I thought I could keep quiet but it's obvious I need further training in self control and proofing the behaviour 

You don't turn a fearful dog's life around by watching TV programmes, asking it to guard a perimeter or channeling drive.

You do it by changing how the dog feels about the things it finds scary, having the dog look to you for guidance and taking away the responsibility for making decisions.

Fear based reactivity from the dog's point of view is all about trying to make the scary thing go away.  Not all reactive dogs are aggressive and not all reactivity is fear based, it could be caused by frustration or over excitement.

I get that this is a brief post but I think you will get the idea.

Yes, bonny, this post is off topic.  So what?

ETA.  It is in response to comments made by other posters.  Anyhow, out to brave the weather with the dog


----------



## Clodagh (27 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			Hmm, predators - in Essex?
		
Click to expand...

Ah you people who have never lived there 🤣


----------



## skinnydipper (27 November 2021)

This is also slightly off topic (I'm already sitting on the naughty chair ).

Why are people breeding and buying Bully Kuttas in the UK, if not for dog fighting or intimidation?

Also spotted when I briefly looked at dog ads yesterday, Caucasian shepherd x Bully Kutta.  WTAF.


----------



## Clodagh (27 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			This is also slightly off topic (I'm already sitting on the naughty chair ).

Why are people breeding and buying Bully Kuttas in the UK, if not for dog fighting or intimidation?

Also spotted when I briefly looked at dog ads yesterday, Caucasian shepherd x Bully Kutta.  WTAF.
		
Click to expand...

The trouble is you cannot insist that humans are castrated and muzzled unles they pass a temperament test. An IQ bigger than that of algae would be a start.


----------



## stangs (27 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			This is also slightly off topic (I'm already sitting on the naughty chair ).

Why are people breeding and buying Bully Kuttas in the UK, if not for dog fighting or intimidation?

Also spotted when I briefly looked at dog ads yesterday, Caucasian shepherd x Bully Kutta.  WTAF.
		
Click to expand...

I saw some purebred Bully Kutta puppies for sale in London the other day too, apparently both parents imported. I wish I could say that they must be being sold to breed enthusiasts, but, if there are any such people out there (in the dog lover sense), surely the community would be small enough that you wouldn’t need an ad on preloved to see the puppies?

Frankly, I quite like the look of the breed, especially the more hunting dog type. But a) I’m not nearly experienced enough with dogs to have one, and b) do I think anyone living in an urban area should have one? No. And I can only think of one kind of people in London who’d be interested in owning one. Ironically, I was reading an article the other day on how they’ve become a common breed in Punjab just because young men want to look tough - global issue? https://m.timesofindia.com/city/cha...-Punjabs-macho-image/articleshow/46257957.cms


----------



## stangs (27 November 2021)

On a related note, is it just me or are mastiff (of various and increasingly exotic breeds) crosses absolutely everywhere for sale atm? And the vast majority of them don’t look particularly healthy.


----------



## skinnydipper (27 November 2021)

stangs said:



			I saw some purebred Bully Kutta puppies for sale in London the other day too, apparently both parents imported. I wish I could say that they must be being sold to breed enthusiasts, but, if there are any such people out there (in the dog lover sense), surely the community would be small enough that you wouldn’t need an ad on preloved to see the puppies?
		
Click to expand...

Bully Kuttas are used for dog fighting in Pakistan and India.  Not the kind of dog that we need more of in the UK.

ETA.  Dog fighting is illegal in Pakistan and India but still takes place.  Still takes place in the UK too .


----------



## GSD Woman (29 November 2021)

In my state the vets are supposed to report every rabies vaccine given with the name of owner, breed of dog and residence.  My county at least comes around and does random license checks. 

We had the cutest pit bull puppy in at work on Friday. Nice and friendly but had a horrible battle crop.  It made me sad.  I am so not a fan of cropping, or declawing cats either.


----------



## cauda equina (29 November 2021)

I hadn't heard of 'battle crop'
Urgh


----------



## GSD Woman (29 November 2021)

A battle crop is very short. This dog's ears looked like the breeder did them.


----------



## Cortez (29 November 2021)

GSD Woman said:



			A battle crop is very short. This dog's ears looked like the breeder did them.
		
Click to expand...

Illegal, no?


----------



## Clodagh (29 November 2021)

Cortez said:



			Illegal, no?
		
Click to expand...

Probably not in the US


----------



## GSD Woman (30 November 2021)

depending on the state the breeder could be breaking the law.  In Va to do surgery on your own animal is legal as long as proper pain relief is used.  Back in the 1990s I knew a family with boxers.  they had some old timey vet come do ears.  This vet did it on the kitchen table using ether.  Makes me shudder.


----------



## bonny (24 December 2021)

Another death, this time a man who rescued dogs and looks like a bulldog again. Something needs to change, poor man and his family, sad that he was trying to help the dog who killed him.


----------



## Amymay (24 December 2021)

bonny said:



			Another death, this time a man who rescued dogs and looks like a bulldog again. Something needs to change, poor man and his family, sad that he was trying to help the dog who killed him.
		
Click to expand...

Where’s it reported?


----------



## bonny (24 December 2021)

Amymay in a manger said:



			Where’s it reported?
		
Click to expand...

Bbc


----------



## DabDab (24 December 2021)

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/tragic-man-killed-dog-attack-25776320

Sounds pretty tragic on the face of it. His poor kids


----------



## Clodagh (24 December 2021)

That is so awful. There’s no winners in that case. His poor, poor children. I hope they have extended family who can help.


----------



## twiggy2 (24 December 2021)

How very sad


----------



## AFishOutOfWater (24 December 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			Also spotted when I briefly looked at dog ads yesterday, Caucasian shepherd x Bully Kutta.  WTAF.
		
Click to expand...

Feck that's a disaster waiting to happen 😳 😳


----------



## SilverLinings (16 August 2022)

I have just seen an article on the BBC News website about owners struggling to feed their pets due to the current cost of living, and one woman openly describes one of her two dogs as being a Pitbull*: 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62310284

The BBC makes no comment in the article about Pitbull's being on the banned breed list, but it made me wonder how much of the general public is actually aware that there are banned breeds in the UK? I know that some people buy them because they are banned, but presumably in this case the owner doesn't know as surely she wouldn't be so open about it? I thought that it was widely known in the UK that Pitbulls were illegal even if many people couldn't name some or all of the other breeds on the banned list.

*I don't know enough about Pitbull's to be able to tell from the photo in the article whether it actually is one or not.


----------



## CorvusCorax (16 August 2022)

Pitbulls can be allowed to exist with exemptions granted by the courts, including the wearing of a muzzle in public places.
Those pics show the dog in the house so it wouldn't be in breach of any exemption.


----------



## SilverLinings (16 August 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			Pitbulls can be allowed to exist with exemptions granted by the courts, including the wearing of a muzzle in public places.
Those pics show the dog in the house so it wouldn't be in breach of any exemption.
		
Click to expand...

I hadn't realised there were exemptions, but I do think it's interesting nothing was said in the article as it did give the impression that it was a normal type of dog to own.


----------



## CorvusCorax (16 August 2022)

SilverLinings said:



			I hadn't realised there were exemptions, but I do think it's interesting nothing was said in the article as it did give the impression that it was a normal type of dog to own.
		
Click to expand...

It's pretty much nothing more than 'that's not what the article is about'.
The person who wrote it might not know or was so desperate to get x amount of people to interview about the issue before deadline, that they weren't really bothered about supplementary questions.


----------



## SilverLinings (16 August 2022)

Out of interest, do you think that the public in general (particularly those who don't engage with MSM/read newspapers) are aware there are banned breeds? There seems to have been such an increase in dog attacks (I know that the pandemic caused an increase in dog owners) and a fad for 'tough' looking dogs- I had assumed that people bought banned breeds (or other traditionally guarding-type or fighting-type breeds) because of the cachet, but the article made me wonder whether some people just don't know. I suppose as there appears to be a lot of owners who have no idea about dog behaviour, training and care there is no reason they'd know much about breeds either.


----------



## CorvusCorax (16 August 2022)

No. Apart from anything, the other three breeds on the list were and still are pretty much unheard of in the UK.
And the American Pit Bull Terrier is not a breed recognised by the English kennel club.
It is more a type than a breed, assessed by things like measurements, behaviours and bite pressure (that's why some are taken alive after attacks, evidence is needed in case of prosecution, I do not know why people cannot get their heads around that). Therefore there is very little in the way of record keeping/DNA proof etc.
The DDA is extremely flawed and problematic, it was a knee-jerk reaction to public panic in the 1990s, it does not work and is indicative of the overall problems with dog ownership and breeding in these islands.


----------



## SilverLinings (16 August 2022)

I agree with you about the problem with the DDA and banned breeds list- I thought I was fairly clued up about dogs but didn't know there were exceptions that meant you could keep one, which shows how easily it can be misunderstood. And as we've seen from all the recent dog attacks the list doesn't stop these things happening. I suppose unless we ban all breeds with a certain bite strength and/or of a certain size (I am NOT advocating this) we are still going to have fatal attacks as it seems that the government can't legislate to prevent ignorant owners not making sure they have control of their dogs. It would probably be more helpful if there was a way of legislating how people treat/train/care for their dogs to prevent the aggressive behaviour, but I don't know how you'd police it or what rules you could put in place.

I wonder if going at the problem sideways by making welfare requirements for dogs much more strict, and policing them better, would put some of the less suitable owners off bothering to get a dog in the first place? I suspect many of the less responsible owners would be put off if owning a dog required more thought and more work (i.e. the amount responsible owners already put in).


----------



## CorvusCorax (16 August 2022)

SilverLinings said:



			It would probably be more helpful if there was a way of legislating how people treat/train/care for their dogs to prevent the aggressive behaviour, but I don't know how you'd police it or what rules you could put in place.

I wonder if going at the problem sideways by making welfare requirements for dogs much more strict, and policing them better, would put some of the less suitable owners off bothering to get a dog in the first place? I suspect many of the less responsible owners would be put off if owning a dog required more thought and more work (i.e. the amount responsible owners already put in).
		
Click to expand...

Some people have been lobbying Governments and kennel clubs about taking this sort of direction for years!
And, repeating myself, a total rethink on how and why we breed and why we keep dogs.
They are still seen by too many as a commodity or disposable accessory, although there is more research done into the purchase of most disposable accessories....


----------



## Gloi (16 August 2022)

SilverLinings said:



			I agree with you about the problem with the DDA and banned breeds list- I thought I was fairly clued up about dogs but didn't know there were exceptions that meant you could keep one, which shows how easily it can be misunderstood. And as we've seen from all the recent dog attacks the list doesn't stop these things happening. I suppose unless we ban all breeds with a certain bite strength and/or of a certain size (I am NOT advocating this) we are still going to have fatal attacks as it seems that the government can't legislate to prevent ignorant owners not making sure they have control of their dogs. It would probably be more helpful if there was a way of legislating how people treat/train/care for their dogs to prevent the aggressive behaviour, but I don't know how you'd police it or what rules you could put in place.

I wonder if going at the problem sideways by making welfare requirements for dogs much more strict, and policing them better, would put some of the less suitable owners off bothering to get a dog in the first place? I suspect many of the less responsible owners would be put off if owning a dog required more thought and more work (i.e. the amount responsible owners already put in).
		
Click to expand...

It would just end up like horse passports where responsible owners fork out and the others just ignore the law


----------



## CorvusCorax (16 August 2022)

Oh and people need a lot better understanding of genetics and behaviour and original uses etc etc.
Not just in terms of the dogs people wish to buy, but why mating this dog to that bitch might not be a great idea, or why not just wash those dogs from your breeding programme altogether, even if they are a pretty colour....


----------



## SilverLinings (16 August 2022)

I do read your posts CC, and totally agree, I didn't mean to make you repeat yourself. It is frankly disgusting that humans see any sentient being as a disposable accessory or status symbol. I think the internet (particularly Instagram over the last few years) has really not been helpful with all the celebrities posting cute/imposing/enviable/aspirational/etc photos of their puppies/dogs, it always seems to be where the craze for the latest in-fashion breed starts.


----------



## SilverLinings (16 August 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			Oh and people need a lot better understanding of genetics and behaviour and original uses etc etc.
Not just in terms of the dogs people wish to buy, but why mating this dog to that bitch might not be a great idea, or why not just wash those dogs from your breeding programme altogether, even if they are a pretty colour....
		
Click to expand...

What, you mean there are other reasons to buy a dog than pretty colour/a celebrity has one/it looks 'hard'...

It is unbelievable what defects some breeders are more than happy to pass on (or can't even recognise as defects).


----------



## CorvusCorax (16 August 2022)

SilverLinings said:



			What, you mean there are other reasons to buy a dog than pretty colour/a celebrity has one/it looks 'hard'...

It is unbelievable what defects some breeders are more than happy to pass on (or can't even recognise as defects).
		
Click to expand...

Like, I've stood next to someone who I have known my entire life and has bred stacks of litters over decades and talked them through how the dog they are holding is stressed and how I can tell and the subtle warnings he is giving, to get in reply 'wow, that's really interesting, I never knew that'. And that's someone with a GOOD name and reputation. And yes, breeding away with it.


----------



## SilverLinings (16 August 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			Like, I've stood next to someone who I have known my entire life and has bred stacks of litters over decades and talked them through how the dog they are holding is stressed and how I can tell and the subtle warnings he is giving, to get in reply 'wow, that's really interesting, I never knew that'. And that's someone with a GOOD name and reputation. And yes, breeding away with it.
		
Click to expand...

Christ on a bike, what is wrong with people? To have bred dogs repeatedly for years and still not learn anything much about dog behaviour is just odd- I would have thought someone that involved would be more interested. Has he any understanding or awareness of physical defects in his breeding stock?


----------

