# another anti huint chav up before the beak



## Hebegebe (2 June 2009)

If any greasy little anti hunt twerps fail to leave one of m,y fields as soon as it is possible to do so I will dole out the same treatment

http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/News/Article.aspx?articleID=10181


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## soggy (20 June 2009)

Haha

Lets hope she get a hefty fine and costs.

I would have courteously assisted her to the nearest public footpath or road. Its surprising howfrequently they have been taking snaps of the children accompanying the hunt.

Hunt monitor - paedophile. Hmmm hard to tell the two apart at times


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## ucmeicu (21 June 2009)

you sad person comparing hunt  monitors to paedophiles, if you cant tell the two apart you are one sick individual.


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## A1fie (21 June 2009)

Ucmeicu - Given that children under 10 years old cannot face criminal proceedings I am not sure why there is the need for them to be photographed by hunt monitors.  

Given that the photo's cannot be used as evidence - what use is there in taking their photo's?  Is it just to distress them?  Or maybe Soggy has a point?


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## ucmeicu (21 June 2009)

No I dont think Soggy has a point tbh. What interest are photos of children following a hunt to a paedophile, they could simply be downloaded from many an internet site. I dont know why they take them, maybe soggy or one of his associates should ask them next time. To compare them to paedophiles is insulting and if he has any concerns i am sure they could be brought to the polices attention although I can assure you these type of photographs are not the ones paedophiles would be interested in. His remark is nasty, uncalled for, no doubt there are people on here who have suffered at the hands of real paedophiles and to use this sort of insult against people whos causes you dont agree with to discredit them is very low indeed.


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## Fairynuff (21 June 2009)

Wot! Insulted paedophiles, where? HTF can you possibly insult a child molester :crazy:. Im convinced that you would be incredibly annoyed if some unknown and dressed in camo started filming your child ( fosterchild) while taking part in a completely legal activity such as hunting. Even IF it was illegal, Im sure you would be irked, and rightly so. Mairi.


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## ucmeicu (21 June 2009)

Mairi i will make allowances seeing as its Sunday and you probably have a hangover. You misunderstood my point completely  the insult is to people who have actually suffered at the hands of paedos. If someone was taking photos of my child i would be going up to them asking why and if i had concerns i would be going to the police, I would not be on a lobby whingeing because someone was doing it or implying they were paedophiles unless I knew better. Obviously the police were involved if it is going to court and i hope the person concerned is made aware of the posts here and accusations. Thank god soggy isnt in the police force or you come to that.


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## soggy (22 June 2009)

you sad person comparing hunt  monitors to paedophiles, if you cant tell the two apart you are one sick individual.
		
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I believe they are both driven by the same base motivations and delusional views of what is right. 

If that makes me a sick person in your eye then hey ho.


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## soggy (22 June 2009)

Ucmeicu - Given that children under 10 years old cannot face criminal proceedings I am not sure why there is the need for them to be photographed by hunt monitors.  

Given that the photo's cannot be used as evidence - what use is there in taking their photo's?  Is it just to distress them?  Or maybe Soggy has a point?
		
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Gosh! Who would have ever thought a HM or peado would want to distress a child or their parents.  


(Sometimes sarcasm is the only way. LOL)


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## soggy (22 June 2009)

Wot! Insulted paedophiles, where? HTF can you possibly insult a child molester :crazy:. Im convinced that you would be incredibly annoyed if some unknown and dressed in camo started filming your child ( fosterchild) while taking part in a completely legal activity such as hunting. Even IF it was illegal, Im sure you would be irked, and rightly so. Mairi. 

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Mairi

Like you I don't believe you can insult a kiddie fiddler. You can chop their hands off though. Hopefully with a rusted and dulled axe. Nothings to good for them IMO

Being irksome is all part of the thrill for HM's.


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## soggy (22 June 2009)

Mairi i will make allowances seeing as its Sunday and you probably have a hangover. You misunderstood my point completely  the insult is to people who have actually suffered at the hands of paedos. If someone was taking photos of my child i would be going up to them asking why and if i had concerns i would be going to the police, I would not be on a lobby whingeing because someone was doing it or implying they were paedophiles unless I knew better. Obviously the police were involved if it is going to court and i hope the person concerned is made aware of the posts here and accusations. Thank god soggy isnt in the police force or you come to that.
		
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Some people just go looking for insults, where they don't exist. I suppose it occupies their free time.

Accusations? What accusations? Thank god you don't sit on the bench.


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## ucmeicu (23 June 2009)

[ [/quote]

I believe they are both driven by the same base motivations and delusional views of what is right. 

If that makes me a sick person in your eye then hey ho. 
 [/quote
Hey ho you are a sick person then, If you think hunt monitors get sexual pleasure from taking pictures of hunt followers of any age then you definately have a problem.
gboat.


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## Hebegebe (23 June 2009)

If hunt monitors think that people who hunt get a sick pleasure from inflicting pain on animals then they definitely have a problem.


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## ucmeicu (23 June 2009)

I think if they thought that they would be correct in some cases.


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## combat_claire (23 June 2009)

Justify that statement please.

If hunting people were only on the hunting field for some sadistic kick, then there would be far better ways of satisfying that urge than fox hunting. Naturally I am talking pre-ban here - but foxes and hounds run faster than horses and have the advantage of being able to take a direct line across the country. The followers are often left behind and it is rare for them to see the kill, which would take place several fields away and in some cover. 

It is about as thrilling to a sadist as standing at Twickenham station would be for me as a rugger fan. I'd be able to hear some of the cheers from the match, but wouldn't be able to see or get any thrill from the game play.

I do wish proponents of the anti-hunting cause would apply some logic before they make ridiculous statements.


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## endymion (23 June 2009)

Why are people so obsessed with paedophiles in this country??!!!


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## ucmeicu (23 June 2009)

can you speak for everyone Claire? No. You are presuming all think the same as you. No doubt the majority do but not all thats for sure.


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## combat_claire (23 June 2009)

What I am saying is that it would be nigh on impossible to get a sadistic thrill from hunting. Judging by some of the painful injuries some of my mounted friends have managed you'd make a better case for masochistic tendencies than sadistic ones...


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## combat_claire (23 June 2009)

I'm not, I didn't even mention the word paedophile in my post so why on earth are you aiming that statement at me??


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## Hebegebe (23 June 2009)

Why are people so obsessed with paedophiles in this country??!!!
		
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I don't think I am.


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## endymion (23 June 2009)

Claire, it wasn't aimed at you. Sorry if you got that impression, you were just the last person on the thread that i replied to. 

It wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, more at the discussion at the beggining of the thread. If hunt sabs/monitors are taking pics of children to be intimidating and threatening then I understand why people are concerned. 

However, to mention paedophilia is pretty ridiculous. Are paedo's known to sympathise with foxes? Are sabs a front for secret paedo rings? Probably not. And I expect paedos have much easier and more deceptive ways to get their own pics of kids than right in front of huge amount of hunters, foot followers and often the police too.


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## Hebegebe (23 June 2009)

well whatever but one things for sure, they are unwashed lice ridden scratty chavs.  

I think everyone can agree on that.


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## combat_claire (23 June 2009)

You've been neglecting us again Endy :-( - see look it has been so long that you forgot how the reply button works!! 

I tend to agree that the mention of paedophilia was pretty daft, due to the fact that during the winter months I am certain that most right thinking people would not go riding or send their kids out naked!! 

On the flip side having been monitored by a group from North West HSA whose technique is to take as many pictures of people as possible it is annoying to have your legal beagling trip ruined by paparazzi. I wonder how their snap of me crossing the river with a beagle under my arm came out. I'd have loved to have a copy for my Facebook album!


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## peakpark (23 June 2009)

Hi Endy!
Nice to see you on the forums again - it's been a long time.


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## peakpark (23 June 2009)

The paparazzi tactics sound very annoying. What happens if you give them a taste of their own medicine and paparazzi them?


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## ucmeicu (23 June 2009)

you would end up with a set of piccys of HSA I assume.


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## Hebegebe (23 June 2009)

you would end up with a set of piccys of HSA I assume.
		
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I guess one could trail them round constantly in the hope of them committing some offense but let's face it you'd have to be pretty sad to do that!


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## ucmeicu (23 June 2009)

have you a set of them then?


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## Hebegebe (23 June 2009)

have you a set of them then?
		
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Sorry no can do. I am not a sad little f ucker that spends his time videoing people and their children against their wishes.


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## ucmeicu (23 June 2009)

Thats your opinion of them and if nothing illegal is done by either side whats the problem? You post like you have an anger problem.


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## Hebegebe (23 June 2009)

Thats your opinion of them and if nothing illegal is done by either side whats the problem? You post like you have an anger problem.
		
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Not at all.  If people get a kick out of going round filming people then it's no skin off my nose.

The world is full of tossers, it doesn't especially bother me.


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## somethingorother (23 June 2009)

Well that was interesting. No form of useful at all, but amusing non the less. 

I can only argue against Hebegebe's point that tossers don't bother them... it is clear from the posts in this thread that the opposite is in fact true...


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## soggy (23 June 2009)

Hey ho you are a sick person then, If you think hunt monitors get sexual pleasure from taking pictures of hunt followers of any age then you definately have a problem.
gboat.
		
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To be considered a sick person by someone so insignificant as yourself is of no concern. In fact I find it mildly amusing, and worthy of mention when next in the market bar. We often have a laugh at the various piss ants that seem to squat in the opposition camp.

As I said before I believe HM and paedo's to be driven by the same base motivations and delusional views of what is right. Take from that what ever you will.


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## Hebegebe (23 June 2009)

Well that was interesting. No form of useful at all, but amusing non the less. 

I can only argue against Hebegebe's point that tossers don't bother them... it is clear from the posts in this thread that the opposite is in fact true...
		
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I said they don't bother me, I can't vouch for anyone else


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## soggy (23 June 2009)

Thats your opinion of them and if nothing illegal is done by either side whats the problem?
		
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That the opinion of them held by everyone apart for other little saddo's.


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## soggy (23 June 2009)

The world is full of tossers
		
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One of the primary requirements of a HM and or peado is to be a total tosser. 

Before anyone ask. I fail such a requirement due to my strict Presbyterian up bringing, and desire to retain my eyesight. PMSL


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## ucmeicu (24 June 2009)

Oh dear what a sad outlook you have, I can assure you the world isnt full of tossers, I guess its just your world that is and if you choose to mix with them thats up to you.


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## Hebegebe (24 June 2009)

Oh dear what a sad outlook you have, I can assure you the world isnt full of tossers, I guess its just your world that is and if you choose to mix with them thats up to you.
		
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What is your basis for that statement?  Do you know any of his friends?


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## ucmeicu (24 June 2009)

As the statement was yours I was referring to you. As you stated the world is full of tossers then I assume it was based on your personal experiences with tossers. I dont know if soggy has alot of tossers in his world like you do.


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## Hebegebe (24 June 2009)

As the statement was yours I was referring to you. As you stated the world is full of tossers then I assume it was based on your personal experiences with tossers. I dont know if soggy has alot of tossers in his world like you do.
		
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I was talking aboiut the wortld not 'mine'.

There are plenty about if you look about a bit.


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## Hebegebe (24 June 2009)

As the statement was yours I was referring to you. As you stated the world is full of tossers then I assume it was based on your personal experiences with tossers. I dont know if soggy has alot of tossers in his world like you do.
		
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I'm getting the impression that you are a bit of an arsehole actually


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## endymion (24 June 2009)

Hi Claire and peakpark, I hope you're both doing well. 

Nice to be back, although it's not the same without Giles. I wonder where he could be.....ho-hum......  :grin:


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## Hebegebe (24 June 2009)

Hi Claire and peakpark, I hope you're both doing well. 

Nice to be back, although it's not the same without Giles. I wonder where he could be.....ho-hum......  :grin:
		
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Good to see you too Endy


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## ucmeicu (24 June 2009)

well hebegebe, its better to be a assumed to be bit of an arsehole , than leave no doubt you are a complete arsehole like you do


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## Hebegebe (24 June 2009)

well hebegebe, its better to be a assumed to be bit of an arsehole , than leave no doubt you are a complete arsehole like you do 

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How pathetic


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## ucmeicu (24 June 2009)

ho hum what a disappointing reply..... up your game hebegebe


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## Hebegebe (24 June 2009)

Why bother?  You're just an arsehole, what else is there to say?

Are you going to send me a letter or something?


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## ucmeicu (24 June 2009)

ooo upped to an arsehole lolol  no letter or something, you didnt understand my answer so i doubt you would cope with anything longer  you just stick with the feeble answers and insults obviously your comfort zone


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## Hebegebe (24 June 2009)

none of your answers have seemed particularly complex?


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## ucmeicu (24 June 2009)

I dumbed down for an arsehole


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## somethingorother (25 June 2009)

Good god i think this is the lowest form of a 'debate' i've ever seen online. You people are clearly lacking in some perspective and also basic manners. Glad i don't often look at the hunting forum now.


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## Hebegebe (25 June 2009)

I didn't think it was a debate


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## Hebegebe (25 June 2009)

I dumbed down for an arsehole
		
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Ah so your posts are so stupid because you dumb them down?

Is there a point  behind them then?


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## soggy (25 June 2009)

I'm getting the impression that you are a bit of an arsehole actually 

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Giles

If it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck......................  [color:red]IT'S A DUCK !   [/color]


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## ucmeicu (25 June 2009)

wow you'd be a wonderful asset out shooting soggy.


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## soggy (25 June 2009)

Do you know anything at all about country sports?

Only a fool would think some one would shoot a walking duck.


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## Fairynuff (25 June 2009)

I wouldnt take much notice of Uc or whatever Essexgirl has chosen to name herself. 'IF'' you were to rush off and buy a clapped out butcher bound French horse for a whopping amount of dosh then bring it back to good old England, then you juuuuuuuuuuuuuust might be worthy of treading the same planet as her of the chips'n'vinegar clique. To put it bluntly..ignore :smirk:
You get extra 'kudos' if said 'rescue' animal has no health papers


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## SirenaXVI (25 June 2009)

Well said Mairi


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## Fairynuff (25 June 2009)

cant stand 2 faced gits nor mind game players. I also hate hypocrites with a vengence oo:. Couldnt NOT say something, it would have been unethical of me


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## ucmeicu (25 June 2009)

Soggy my OH shot for England when he was younger, hes been shooting all over UK and worked on major estates. Me. I have only been on one shoot was at the Earl of Sherbourne/Shelbourne? cant remember exact name. my uncle bred ESS and was at one time president of gundog society so I went along. Mairi have to agree I hate two faced gits , mind players whatever, never got myself involve in that click . My views are out there for all to see. None of my horses is clapped out lol and all have correct papers including vettings in France and here but thats old ground isnt it. You should try to move on, I dont know you from adam.


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## Gonetofrance (26 June 2009)

None of my horses is clapped out lol and all have correct papers including vettings in France
..........................................................

But that's not quite true, is it? 

Neither the aged chestnut trotter or the grey percheron filly had vet checks in France, the site did not vet check then....

The bay stallion you bought was already in the UK, so just another dealer's horse. 

Back on topic, hunt monitors should not be taking photos of children. 
I wish they would use their spare time more fruitfully for animal welfare.


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## ucmeicu (26 June 2009)

correct Romeo was bought here in the UK and anyway he is not my horse. April and Dam WERE vet checked before coming over. Not everything is organised on the site or through the site. If you asked you would know the facts rather than make inaccurate statements. I arranged this and also transport for April myself. I have letters/bills from the vets in France stating vettings and vaccs done there, although i have had them revaccinated since over here as cdnt decipher what exactly they were covered for.


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## Gonetofrance (26 June 2009)

There was not the time to arrange that for Dam. And you felt the need to do bloods once April arrived......... funny that, if she had a vet check before she came over..........

Strange how you can't decipher vaccinations (yet can arrange vet checks in a foreign country), when on a legitimate passport they are perfectly understandable in any EU country. 

There was certainly no time for either of them to have been tested or infectious diseases such as EIA. 

So please, cut the fabrications. You are trying to justify what you did with untruths.

I hope you listened to the Jamie Gray programme, and took on board what was causing the current welfare problems for horses in the UK. You have added to that. 

This is the hunting forum, so I will comment no further on here. Feel free to continue via pm or email if you wish.


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## ucmeicu (26 June 2009)

You know nothing about what i have or have not had time to do.  start with Cabinet Veterinaire de Billom, 11 Rue de la liberation, 63160 Billom re April,not that i have to justify my actions to you.  EIA had not been mentioned by you or rescue sites at the time they came over. Be careful who you call a liar and return your phonecalls as we have been trying to get in touch with ERF. My horses are with me for life so what Jamie Grey has to do with it i dont know, If you look on the rescue sites over here you will find companions or unbroken ponies and tbs, I have yet to see a percheron on there or a hack(apart from aberdeenshire). What I choose to spend my money on or how much is really none of your business, being in France you would do better concerning yourself with the plight of horses in France not ones already in the UK who are happy, healthy and leading secure lives.


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## lochpearl (26 June 2009)

Now, now ucmeicu - this is about a hunting problem it should not be personal attacks at any members on here. I agree arguments do get heated at times but there is not reason to be so agressive.

I think the problem is and this is again taking it off topic - sorry post holder!! But we all know that the vet checks you are talking about have not been done, if so you would provide proof. You will also say that you do not need to prove it as it is none of our business but perhaps this is the only way to stop this argument.

ERF does a very good job and I for one wholeheartedly support their work. the reference to Jamie Grey was that they did a piece on Radio 4 last week - think you can only here it for another day. It is just saying that there are so many horses in the UK that end up like that because there are too many horses here for us to cope with them. Bringing in horses from other countries especially ones that 'could' carry diease or are sick or deformed is not helping with the ones in this country that are being slaughtered weekly and many of them are fit and healthy.

Now enough of this witch hunt. Please let us go back to the original thread.


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## ucmeicu (26 June 2009)

please read back lochpearl and see who has been attacked in all of this.  If i posted vets letters or other docs no doubt they would be called a fake. You yourself are calling me liar. Reguarding horses in this country i have posted what i found on rescue sites when looking, I even went to a local sanctuary.My horses arent deformed or sick and I chose to give them a life, are they less worthy than UK horses? Witch hunt yes, aimed at me i believe, i have done nothing but respond to posts aimed at me.


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## M_G (26 June 2009)

Be careful who you call a liar and return your phonecalls as we have been trying to get in touch with ERF.
		
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There is only one ERF......Are you looking for a truck then?


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## lochpearl (26 June 2009)

I believe you are being unfair. I have read every post on all of the forums and none of these websites offered a vetting, you have also never mentioned that you have had them done and are only spouting about it now.

Ihave never said that you have a diseased, deformed or unhealthy horse. What I am trying to make you understand is, is that for 1 horse you bring into this country another horse if not 2 will be replaced in the country that you have purchased from and also 1 horse will die in this country in it's place. 

Simple - I cannot make it more clear to you so perhaps you shoudl listen carefully to the radio and try and understand it.

Also saying there is a witch hunt - all I can see if you following the same members around this forum and having a go. Why are you on this forum as you are anti HHO and you have your own forums to go on - why come and stir here?


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## SirenaXVI (26 June 2009)

TBH vet checks were not something, that were ever even thought about until those you call 'antis' mentioned them, why did you not mention that you had had yours properly vet checked/coggins tested at the time?

So you particularly wanted a percheron and a hack and could only buy them in France, why then do you call this purchase a 'rescue'?

I am glad to hear that your horses are with you for life, it is just a shame that this cannot be said for all of those 'rescued' from France.

Oh and I also think that the hunt antis should not be taking pictures of children, very bad form imho.


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## ucmeicu (26 June 2009)

Read again my posts i have always said had vet checks before and after. Whilst another horse may take my horses place mine are safe and i do actively support campaigns re on the hook etc as i cannot argue as a meat eater that they should not be eaten. As for the ones in the UK, I did try, nothing suitable so bought elsewhere.  Reguarding H&amp;H as a horse owner I am interested in articles written. I even congratulated jm07 on her ponies as she has done a great job with them. Why do antis go on rescue sites?


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## Fairynuff (26 June 2009)

I was under the impression that photographing children was not allowed without parental consent. The HMs are obviously attempting to give meaning to their sad little lives-its incredible how little it can take for some peple to feel righteous and important! :crazy: Im sure they are the offspring of the 'anorak'd trainspotter brigade'  Mairi.


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## flowerlady (26 June 2009)

Read again my posts i have always said had vet checks before and after. Whilst another horse may take my horses place mine are safe and i do actively support campaigns re on the hook etc as i cannot argue as a meat eater that they should not be eaten. As for the ones in the UK, I did try, nothing suitable so bought elsewhere.  Regarding H&amp;H as a horse owner I am interested in articles written. I even congratulated jm07 on her ponies as she has done a great job with them. Why do antis go on rescue sites?
		
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Because we were invited by Shannonbaby Remember 

Also we would not turn our backs on this 'trade' disguised as rescue.  Although it is nice to see that you at least are now calling them purchases and not 'rescues'.


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## ucmeicu (26 June 2009)

who is shannonbaby? does she run a site?


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## SirenaXVI (26 June 2009)

Read again my posts i have always said had vet checks before and after. Whilst another horse may take my horses place mine are safe and i do actively support campaigns re on the hook etc as i cannot argue as a meat eater that they should not be eaten. As for the ones in the UK, I did try, nothing suitable so bought elsewhere.  Reguarding H&amp;H as a horse owner I am interested in articles written. I even congratulated jm07 on her ponies as she has done a great job with them. Why do antis go on rescue sites?
		
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Ah so they were not rescues then?  Good glad you have finally admitted that.

Why do antis go on rescue sites, I would have thought that was obvious, to change things, it is due to these antis that these sites now offer vet checks, it is due to the antis that the horses are not suffering long journey times (much much longer than any journey they would make to an abbatoir in France), it is due to the antis that the sites have had to admit that they do not in the main suffer the journey on the baaaad lorry to Italy, it is due to the antis that it has come to light that not ALL of the horses are actually at fat farms but are in fact at low end dealers.....................................want me to go on?


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## SirenaXVI (26 June 2009)

who is shannonbaby? does she run a site?
		
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Shannonbaby aahhh now there's a memory, and FL is quite right, she is the initial reason the 'antis' as you call them set up.  She came on here calling everyone animal haters and murderers in very very bad english.  She originally came over from RRR but I think she has subsequently been banned, not sure.


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## Gonetofrance (26 June 2009)

Interesting post that you edited, essexgirl. 

Your original post was ;

 **You know nothing about what i have or have not had time to do.  Cabinet Veterinaire de Billom, 11 Rue de la liberation, 63160 Billom re April, Mathieu Houssin, Docteur Veterinaire, 14 za du Chenet, 91490 Milly la foret re Dam. EIA had not been mentioned by you or anyone else at the time they came over**

Now, Dam was in Dept 14, Calvados, so why would the vet come all the way from Dept 91, Essone, south of Paris, at least a 3 hour journey, to do a vet check? 

Also, as April is ONC, she is not covered by the TPA, therefore should have been disease tested before she was travelled.


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## genuinehorsegal (26 June 2009)

Out of curiosity why was it that you particulary wanted a Percheron?


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## soggy (26 June 2009)

I wouldnt take much notice of Uc or whatever Essexgirl has chosen to name herself. 'IF'' you were to rush off and buy a clapped out butcher bound French horse for a whopping amount of dosh then bring it back to good old England, then you juuuuuuuuuuuuuust might be worthy of treading the same planet as her of the chips'n'vinegar clique. To put it bluntly..ignore :smirk:
You get extra 'kudos' if said 'rescue' animal has no health papers 

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Mairi

Thanks for the info. I don't read the other sections as I'm not very horsey.
I can see what you mean going by her reply. It has the oh so familiar whiff of BS that you get from all these pissant antis.

I think I shall do as the head woman advises and make her the first name on my ignore list.


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## ucmeicu (27 June 2009)

If you looked i removed his name because i made an error he was the vet who did her vaccination. Soggy I change my mind about you, not a duck, def a sheep.


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## soggy (27 June 2009)

I take being considered a sheep over being a bullshitter any day of the week sweet heart.

Any one know how to make this ignore poster thing work?


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## soggy (27 June 2009)

Sussed it! 

Bye bye Ucmeicu, bye bye.


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## genuinehorsegal (27 June 2009)

And I was looking forward to hearing why you wanted a Percheron.....


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## ucmeicu (27 June 2009)

Bullsh*tter over what ? OH uses berretta687 at the mo, had a 682supersport,hes reeling em off cant be bothered typin em, he shot on veriland estate, banff estate,tallybont on usk(grouse) pheasant and partridge at exeter, shot at luton hoo, enough? My Uncle was president of gundog society, he bred, trained dogs sold them uk and american, sold some to robert mcalpine if i remember rightly.His dogs had the prefix cadoxten, ttp://www.essfta.org/Working_Certificates/1960_1969_WD.htm
mention of his dogs offspring there. So you keep bleating your rubbish.

Peabrain, she is percheron x comtois, nothing suitable at time i looked in adverts or rescues, she will do ride and drive, I admire both breeds, the comtois are doing well driving ploughing etc here now and the percherons are well known for their abilities. She is a lovely filly and was kept in appalling conditions previous to when i got her. Is that enough?


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## Shilasdair (27 June 2009)

My thought for the day:
'Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer'

Sometimes it can be hard to distinguish between the two, though, eh?

S


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## genuinehorsegal (27 June 2009)

Ahh right....

So why were you trying to find someone to take her off your hands before you'd even got her home??

ucicu2!!


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## SirenaXVI (27 June 2009)

Ahh right....

So why were you trying to find someone to take her off your hands before you'd even got her home??

ucicu2!!
		
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Really? How interesting, hmmmmmm some rescuer!

BTW Essexgirl hows the old Moral Campaigner these days, not heard from her for a while and in a strange way I kinda miss her!


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## JM07 (27 June 2009)

Really? How interesting, hmmmmmm some rescuer!

BTW Essexgirl hows the old Moral Campaigner these days, not heard from her for a while and in a strange way I kinda miss her!
		
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oh deary, deary me.......


what can have happened?


FLMAO......


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## ucmeicu (27 June 2009)

Did say that at the time as had to work on OH, Dam was also going on permenant loan to someone nearby. Luckily OH was easy to win over,now loves the horses and neither of us would ever part with them.
I dont really know MC, have never personally spoken to her.


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## Gonetofrance (27 June 2009)

Funny that, MC told me all about having met you.......


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## ucmeicu (28 June 2009)

I can catagorically state i have NEVER met her, why she has said that I dont know.


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## genuinehorsegal (28 June 2009)

No...I think your actual words were,
"unfortunatley do not have facilities to look after a youngster."
No mention of your having to work on your OH.

So many inconsistencies....ho hum!

Now, back to Moralcampaigner....maybe she's busy private eye work catching the real criminals in the world?? ROFLMAO


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## Gonetofrance (28 June 2009)

I think Shils has succintly covered it with the phrase .....

'Keep your frinds close, your enemies closer'

And I wonder which forum you actually tell the real story on? So far your posts on ERR and posts on here totally contradict. 

Gosh, what and who should we believe?


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## soggy (3 July 2009)

Gosh, what and who should we believe?
		
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ROTFLMAO

Isn't it obvious?


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## Equus Leather (5 July 2009)

QR to the start of the thread re taking photos of children.

I am a school teacher.

In order for me to take photos of my students completing their biology A level practical work/GCSE work/Portfolio evidence I have to write a letter to all of their parents seeking their permission. I then have to wait for the parents to send back the reply slips stating if I can or not. Those I can, brilliant and it aids their evidence portfolio. Those I can't well, have to do other work to catch up. 

I am a professional, with a completed and clean enhanced CRB check, yet I cannot tale photos of students that I have known for 5 years. Why someone who is completely unknown to these children out hunting can take photos of them and I can't is completely beyond me.


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## soggy (5 July 2009)

I am a professional, with a completed and clean enhanced CRB check, yet I cannot tale photos of students that I have known for 5 years. Why someone who is completely unknown to these children out hunting can take photos of them and I can't is completely beyond me.
		
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Like I said earlier

"Hunt monitor - paedophile. Hmmm hard to tell the two apart at times"

Both are equally delusional.


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## Equus Leather (5 July 2009)

I'm sorry, I don't understand your comment soggy.


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## endymion (5 July 2009)

He apparently doesn't know the difference between hunt monitors and paedophiles (he's not a very bright chap, you're best just to agree with him or he gets upset and confused)


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## soggy (8 July 2009)

He apparently doesn't know the difference between hunt monitors and paedophiles (he's not a very bright chap, you're best just to agree with him or he gets upset and confused)  

Click to expand...


Yet another moronic delusional driveller raises their head from their slop bucket in order to show the world how truly insignificant they are. 

Still living in that high rise block in east london Endemic?


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## endymion (8 July 2009)

The_Psephologistee - see what I mean about him getting upset? 

What a temper! 

:grin:


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## endymion (9 July 2009)

No, I actually moved house so I could live closer to a playground.  

You talk some sh*te!


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## soggy (10 July 2009)

No, I actually moved house so I could live closer to a playground.  

You talk some sh*te!
		
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Even more moronic delusional drivel from the truly insignificant.

Well you would now all about talking and eating sh*te!


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## endymion (11 July 2009)

yawn. change the record. You bore the arse off me.


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## soggy (13 July 2009)

You bore the arse off me.
		
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Likewise. As I have told you many times before. 

But then you do know all about arses. As you talk out of yours 99% of the time.

How is life Manor Park?


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## Hebegebe (13 July 2009)

Hey shall we have another argument about whether lynx and wolves kill foxes.  I have loads of new references showing that they do


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## soggy (15 July 2009)

Ah yes I remember that one well.

Our resident shyte babbler attempted to claim otherwise. Wolves will kill anything lower down the food chain full stop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAoszVLRP6U


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## Hebegebe (16 July 2009)

and chasing it a pack too!  Something antis have assured me wolves would never do lol


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## endymion (23 July 2009)

There are no high rises in manor park. Do I live in a high rise or do I live in manor park???


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## endymion (23 July 2009)

Can you smell that? Sniff...sniff..smells like, smells like SH*TE! 

would love to see your evidence of lynx hunting in a pack.......

In a TEN year study 29 lynx were found to take only 37 foxes out of a total of 617 prey animals recovered, the bulk of which were roe deer and chamios. That's 37 foxes in ten years between 29 lynx. That's 1.3 foxes per lynx per decade. Hardly predation pressure is it? 

It also goes on to say ' It (lynx) cannot tirelessly run down its prey in the same manner that a pack of wolves (or dogs - my comment) can '

Link. 
http://www.treesforlife.org.uk/forest/missing/Hetherington_lynx_ECOS.pdf


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## Bunce (23 July 2009)

As far as I am aware wolves do hunt coyotes in packs but not foxes.  It has been proved that foxes have never had any natural predators.


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## Eagle_day (23 July 2009)

Proved by whom?

That now discredited, pseudo-scientist 'Prof' Steve Harris?


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## soggy (24 July 2009)

Can you smell that? Sniff...sniff..smells like, smells like SH*TE! 

would love to see your evidence of lynx hunting in a pack.......

In a TEN year study 29 lynx were found to take only 37 foxes out of a total of 617 prey animals recovered, the bulk of which were roe deer and chamios. That's 37 foxes in ten years between 29 lynx. That's 1.3 foxes per lynx per decade. Hardly predation pressure is it?
		
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This sure is sh*te!

The article actually says
"An intensive 10-year
study of the diet of 29 lynx in the Swiss Jura Mountains, where capercaillie are
more abundant than in the Scottish Highlands, recovered the remains of 617
individual prey animals using snow-and radio-tracking.8 As expected, roe deer and
chamois represented the bulk of the remains, but in the 10 years of the study, only
one capercaillie was found to have fallen prey to the local lynx population.
Interestingly, 37 foxes also fell prey to the lynx in the study. Aside from killing large
herbivores, large carnivores also frequently kill smaller carnivores."

From one isolated study.....recovered remains! Hardly conclusive evidence. LOL 

I would seem that you're better off being a caper than a fox.

Oh yeah as for the rest.

"The lynx is a solitary ambush hunter requiring large areas of cover from which
to launch a surprise attack on small ungulate prey, such as roe deer Capreolus
capreolus. It cannot tirelessly run down its prey in open habitats in the same
manner that a pack of wolves can."

Yep! Sure smells like sh*te!


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## soggy (24 July 2009)

There are no high rises in manor park. Do I live in a high rise or do I live in manor park???
		
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More sh*te.

I lifted this off the web.

" Manor Park, London E12
	[color:red]Found on the 10th floor is this 2 bedroom, high rise property benefiting from gas central heating (untested) and double glazing. The property offers views across Manor Park and is situated on 10th floor."   [/color]

So there are no high rise properties in Manor Park ay? ROTFLMAO


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## Bunce (24 July 2009)

It's total nonsense to suggest that over 5% of a lynx's kills are foxes.


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## soggy (24 July 2009)

What evidence are you using to support your claim that its total nonsense. 

The same one you used to claim that wolves dont kill foxes perhaps.


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## Bunce (24 July 2009)

Can you smell that? Sniff...sniff..smells like, smells like SH*TE! 

would love to see your evidence of lynx hunting in a pack.......

In a TEN year study 29 lynx were found to take only 37 foxes out of a total of 617 prey animals recovered, the bulk of which were roe deer and chamios. That's 37 foxes in ten years between 29 lynx. That's 1.3 foxes per lynx per decade. Hardly predation pressure is it? 

It also goes on to say ' It (lynx) cannot tirelessly run down its prey in the same manner that a pack of wolves (or dogs - my comment) can '

Link. 
http://www.treesforlife.org.uk/forest/missing/Hetherington_lynx_ECOS.pdf

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The only slight proviso that I would add to your statement is that of course the 617 animals would only have represented a fraction of the total actual kills for those 29 lynx. 

Those animals were the prey that the study found.  There's no suggestion that it is all the animals killed by the lynx over that period.

Reading some of the literature that suggests a kill rate of one animal per day per lynx the actual total animals killed for those 29 lynx over a ten year period would have been 105,850.  On the basis of a 5% kill of foxes then this would equate to  5,292 actual foxes killed by those 29 lynx over a ten year period.

That being said I see no reason to take any notice of research posted on here by a pro.

However I don't think anyone would seriously suggest that 29 lynx only killed 617 prey animals in a ten year period.  Nor that that is the conclusion of that study.


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## Bunce (24 July 2009)

If the 29 lynx only killed 617 animals in a ten year period then that would mean 2 animals killed per lynx per year.


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## Bunce (24 July 2009)

What evidence are you using to support your claim that its total nonsense. 

The same one you used to claim that wolves dont kill foxes perhaps.
		
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No because that article is posted by a pro.  It's pro hunt propaganda.

If you note I am being completely objective and am willing to criticise Endyminion's failure to realise that the 617 kills in the study was just a small sample of the overall kills made by the lynx.  However the assertion that 5% of them were foxes is highly dubious.


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## Bunce (24 July 2009)

and chasing it a pack too!  Something antis have assured me wolves would never do lol
		
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  The video shows wolves chasing a COYOTE in a pack NOT a fox!  Get your facts right.  Wolves would never hunt a fox in a pack.


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## Bunce (24 July 2009)

Ok reading through the article here http://psjc.icm.edu.pl/psjc/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?B00-9-26 it gives an average period between kills of 5.5 days (between males and females).

Extrapolating that gives a total of 66 animals killed per lynx per year.  Which equates to a total kill of 19245 for those 29 lynx over a ten year period.  The study suggests a fox kill of 37/617 = 6%.  On the basis of the 617 kills sampled in the study this would suggest that the 29 lynx killed 1154 foxes over that period.  40 foxes per lynx.

The 6% figure for fox kills must therefore be wrong.


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

Are you dim? While you set out the full text what is says actually proves my point. The proportions of fox is the recovered remains is tiny and would not be nearly enough to influence fox pops. 29 lynx kill 37 foxes in ten years? Come on, do the maths! 

As for '"The lynx is a solitary ambush hunter requiring large areas of cover from which
to launch a surprise attack on small ungulate prey, such as roe deer Capreolus
capreolus. It cannot tirelessly run down its prey in open habitats in the same
manner that a pack of wolves can." This states that lynx use AMBUSH and SURPRISE and do not run down their prey like hounds. Therefore hunting with hounds does not mimic natural hunting when it comes to lynx and  foxes. 

Geez. Get an education will you?   :smirk:


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

Bunce the figures for recovered prey are of course not representative of actual (total) kills but instead represent a sample of total kills and can therefore be used to extrapolate actual no's. Either which way, foxes make up a very small proporation of lynx diet and could in no way be said to be a main prey target for lynx. It would be extremely unlikely that lynx influence their pop numbers.


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## Bunce (24 July 2009)

With the greatest respect the study does not conclude that only 37 foxes are killed by 29 foxes in ten years.

I have done the maths and it is as follows (with precise figures)

Kill percentage of foxes in a sample of 617 kills = 37/617 = 5.9967585

Average period between each kill = (5.9+5.2)/2 = 5.55


Total kill over a ten year period for 29 lynx = (365/5.55)*29*10 = 19072.07207207

Total foxes killed over a ten year period = 19072.072072072* .059967585 

total foxes killed over a ten year period by the 29 lynx = 1143.706103108

Total foxes killed per lynx over 10 years =  1143.706103108/29 = 39.438141486

Total fox kill per year per lynx = 3.9438141486


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## Bunce (24 July 2009)

Bunce the figures for recovered prey are of course not representative of actual (total) kills but instead represent a sample of total kills and can therefore be used to extrapolate actual no's. Either which way, foxes make up a very small proporation of lynx diet and could in no way be said to be a main prey target for lynx. It would be extremely unlikely that lynx influence their pop numbers.
		
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Ah I apologise I thought you were attempting to use the figures to suggest that 29 lynx killed 37 foxes in 10 years rather than over 1000


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

Read my last post. 

Point is lynx were shown in this study to take very small numbers of foxes which would most likely not influence their numbers. 

This article also states lynx have a hunting strategy unlike that of dogs and so fox hunting does not replicate a natural hunt. 

And I'm sure 37 foxes are not killed by 29 foxes every 10 years.  :grin:


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## Bunce (24 July 2009)

I wonder what the population of Lynx in the UK was.  If it was say 20,000 that would mean that about 80,000 foxes were being killed per year by Lynx in the uK.


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

That is highly speculative Bunce.

80 000, large as it may seem, is still not enough to influence fox numbers. Currently I think it around 250, 000 deaths needed per annum to maintain current population size (will dig out exact figures).


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## Bunce (24 July 2009)

The point is, as I am sure we would both agree that the current means of control ie shooting and road deaths are far more humane.


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

This thread is getting really anal isn't it?  :grin:


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## Bunce (24 July 2009)

The point is that the ripping to shreds of one animal by another is horribly cruel and inhumane.


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

The point is that fox hunting is an unnecessary means of fox control.


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## Bunce (24 July 2009)

Exactly.  Foxes are adequately controlled by the more humane methods of shooting and RTAs.  There is no need for the more cruel means of fox hunting.


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

Road deaths are unfortunatly unavoidable. Is shooting more humane than hunting? It certainly is more effective as it kills more foxes. I don't think there's any concrete figures on wounding rates (if anyone does have any please let me know - only if they are independant though) so jury's out on whether it's more humane.


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## Bunce (24 July 2009)

The only research done on wounding rates from shooting was pro hunt propaganda.


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

Whether you consider it more effective depends on the effect you want to achieve.

On the question of humaneness shooting kills 5 times more foxes than hunting so it would have to be five times as humane per fox to be as humane.

I'd like to see less foxes killed for the effect I wish to achieve which is maintaining a healthy fox population while taking out problem animals.  

Predation naturally weeds out sick animals because healthy ones are better able to escape.

The obsession with numerical control totally mnisses the point.  Good wildlife management is qualitative not quantitative.


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

That is highly speculative Bunce.

80 000, large as it may seem, is still not enough to influence fox numbers. Currently I think it around 250, 000 deaths needed per annum to maintain current population size (will dig out exact figures).
		
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And populations are generally in equilibrium in a natural balanced system which means that 250,000 foxes do die every year as they did then.

So how exactly do you think those 250,000 foxes used to die every year?  Do you think they just got old and weak and pootled around until they keeled over?

Where there are predators about animals most commonly die by getting caught and eaten.  If they do get sick then they become easy prey which massively increases their chances of getting caught.


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

Foxes are known to control their own populations by adapting birth rates and delaying dispersal rates in response to factors such as habitat and food availability. 

How do you think animals at the top of a food chain with no predators regulate their numbers? This mechanism exists and foxes are known to display it.


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

Do you accept that 250,000 foxes have to die every year in order to maintain an equilibrium of fox numbers?

You state that you don't know if hunting is more or less humane than shooting them.  Why ban it then?

Let's for the sake of argument say it is AS humane.  Saying it should be banned because it kills LESS foxes is ridiculous.


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

I need to double check that figure but it's roundabout that number. 

I dont think hunting with hounds OR shooting is particularly humane. Which is the lesser of two evils? I'd say hunting with hounds is more inhumane but accept that I have no evidence to back this up so lets just say I don't think we need either of them.


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

So if you think that hunting with hounds is the lesser of two evils do you think it was right to ban it and leave shooting legal?

And do you think that it is more humane for a fox to die over weeks from a disease or for it to be caught and killed by a predator?


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

Sorry Mr Bradshaw, that was a mistake, have edited my post.


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

So do you reject the peer reviewed research on wounding rates from shooting as invalid?


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

Regarding wolves killing foxes, do you still claim that they don't as you used to claim that lynx don't?  Or have you changed your position on that too?


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

I have never read anything on wounding rates so have no opinion on them. I am happy to read over anything you want to put my way. Providing they weren't complied by the Shooting Times orwhatever


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

Ps I love the way you do complete about turns.

1) you denied that lynx kill foxes
2) you denied the relevance of research in sweden to britain proving that they do
3) you quote research in switzerland as relevant and claim it shows each lynx kills approx 1 fox every 10 years
4) you accept that actually it shows each lynx kills 40 foxes in 10 years

and you're a student of environmental science!

Why the [****] are my taxes being wasted producing such incompetance?


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

No I don't think wolves hunt foxes. I'm sure they'll pick the odd one off if the opportunity arises but I wouldn't expect foxes to make up a huge part of their diet. i certainly dont think they hunt them in packs. 

still waiting for your evidence on lynx hunting in packs....

how many different names do you post under by the way??


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

I pay my own way thank you very much and I'm not a student.


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

I have never claimed that lynx hunt in packs though have I.  So what is the relevance of that FFS?

I pointed out a video of wolves hunting a coyote in a pack.


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

I have never read anything on wounding rates so have no opinion on them. I am happy to read over anything you want to put my way. Providing they weren't complied by the Shooting Times orwhatever
		
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Research was commissioned by Middle way Group but has been peer reviewed and methodology found to be valid.  It's published in Animal Welfare journal if you're interested.

Summary here

http://www.themiddlewaygroup.org.uk/welfare_improv.pdf


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

Ok I'll look it over. 

Although debating with you is a pointless waste of time. You are on your own tireless mission.


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

Well Endy your position has rather changed hasn't it


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

Has it? Has it really? And if it has is there anything wrong with that? 

Surely having fixed views like you is a bad thing.


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

Nothing wrong with that at all.  Just that debating is always good when it causes people to revise there views that is all.

What makes you think my views are fixed?  I learn stuff all the time.


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

I used to be strongly anti hunt so a bit silly to say I don't change my views really.


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

I not so sure I believe you were ever anti-hunt. 

I'm haven't revised my views on hunting. There is some ambiguity surrounding fox pops. The only way of proving anything conclusively would be a complete ceasation of hunting with hounds AND shooting and for a cencus to be done before and after. This was done to some extent during foot and mouth and it was shown that fox pops didn't change. This is the best piece of evidence so far regarding fox pop dynamics in the absence of hunting. 

Regarding the cause of death by hounds, this could be resolved easily if hunts donated fox carcasses for postmortem examination. But they won't.


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

Surely I am in a better position to know what views I have held during my life than you??

Have you any evidence that the general health of an animal population does not diminish when its predators are removed?

I'm not interested in reducing fox numbers.


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

Ok well I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say I believe you. Kind of. 

I'm sure in many cases the health of prey animals does suffer in the absence of predation - look at rabbits in countries like Australia where they have been introduced and have no real predation pressure. The population explodes, exhausts the food sources and then they starve to death. 

I do not believe this is the case with foxes. They are not a typical prey animal and their population ecology does not function in that way.


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

So do you accept that if there were lynx and wolves about to predate them when a fox became sick and weak it is pretty likely it would get caught and eaten.  Given that these animnals are significant fox predators?


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

It is not given that these animals are significant fox predators. They are not significant fox predators. 

Picking off sick animals has NO affect on population as these animals would likely die anyway.

If a sick/wounded animal strayed into the path of a any predator it would get eaten. A bloody crow could kill a fox if it was sick enough.


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

Exactly and taking out sick animals saves them from a more grisly end yes?

Also if diseased animals are killed rather than being allowed to hang around then they spread less disease.

Agreed or not?


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

Are you still trying to make out that a lynx would only kill a fox every ten years or have we moved on from that bollocks?


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

Good article here 

"Large predators also keep numbers of medium-sized predators such as foxes (Vulpes vulpes) in balance. This in turn reduces the pressure that foxes can have on ground-nesting birds such as the capercaillie (Tetrao urogallus)." - couldn't agree more 

http://www.treesforlife.org.uk/forest/ecological/predation.html


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

Info here about how removal of fox predators causes increase in fopx numbers and reduction in ground nesting birds

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...amp;oi=book_result&amp;ct=result&amp;resnum=1


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

and another one here demonstrating the top-down mesopredator release effect of wolf and lynx extinction on red fox numbers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/17305803?dopt


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## endymion (24 July 2009)

Will have a read of all you have posted next week and give my humble opinion. But not till Mon cos 'tis now the weekend and there's a beer with my name on it waiting for me in the pub. 

Has been a pleasure going round in circles with you again, just like old times, haha

Have a nice weekend and be good to the deer

E


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## HeWasGeeBee (24 July 2009)

Not completely circles I think.  We have made some good progress.

I think you will maybe come to accept that the presence of large predator pressure on red fox populations has a beneficial effect on bio diversity.

  

As for the deer another key effect of exposure to predators or perceived predators (like my dogs) is dispersal, reducing the damage they can do when they cluster in one location.  Another good example of wildlife management that requires less killing not more.


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## soggy (24 July 2009)

Foxes are known to control their own populations by adapting birth rates and delaying dispersal rates in response to factors such as habitat and food availability. 

How do you think animals at the top of a food chain with no predators regulate their numbers? This mechanism exists and foxes are known to display it.
		
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Utter sh*te. Starvation, dehydration, disease, RTA's and hunting in its multitude of forms control fox numbers. To try and claim anything else is total and utter garbage.

But then the antis are always full of BS and garbage.


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## soggy (24 July 2009)

No because that article is posted by a pro.  It's pro hunt propaganda.
		
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I think you have just proved that either you're not on the same planet as the rest of us, or all that snakebite and large scale drug consumption has fried what little brain you were born with.


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