# what to do with incontinent old dog.



## lilly1 (31 July 2017)

14yo bitch has had urine incontinent issues for a couple of years now.  Some seeping while sleeping and squatting on the floor.  Its got worse over this period and I cant remember the last time she went a day / night without an accident. Despite me being at home a lot and getting up at least twice in the night with her, accidents are frequent and several times during a 24 hour period. 

She's had various tests over time, Last years bloods were fine as are recent ones taken. All blood tests are within the normal ranges.  As well as the usual she's been tested for Addisons and Diabetes.  We've tried a prolonged course of AB  and various medication, no change.  There is clearly something wrong as she drinks too much and her urine is very diluted.  Vet has suggested testing her for Atypical cushings, more to rule this out though as her symptoms are not typical of the disease.  Other possible cause is insipidious diabetes, rare and no test for this. Apart from the medication costing more per month than my mortgage, I've been told she may not be responder to treatment (assuming it is this), nor likely to respond to any medication for atypical cushings (assuming its that). 

Its a nightmare situation and causing major its me or the dog arguments at home. If she was otherwise unwell I'd pts but she's not.  This is a dog that's super sharp, high energy and shows little sign of old age.  She shows no distress in having accidents, far from it, she walks round like lady in the manor. 

Help


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## ycbm (31 July 2017)

I'd put a dog nappy on her. There are some real fun ones.


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## gunnergundog (31 July 2017)

Take her to the vet, rule out UTI and then try a course of Incurin.....worked for my 13 year old GWP.  Doesn't even need to be on it all the time and it will not compare to the cost of your mortgage payment.  There is also another medication my vet discussed...........can't remember the name now, but works in apparently a slightly different way, so don't give up.  There are solutions without having to resort to nappies.


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## ycbm (31 July 2017)

gunnergundog said:



			Take her to the vet, rule out UTI and then try a course of Incurin.....worked for my 13 year old GWP.  Doesn't even need to be on it all the time and it will not compare to the cost of your mortgage payment.  There is also another medication my vet discussed...........can't remember the name now, but works in apparently a slightly different way, so don't give up.  There are solutions without having to resort to nappies.
		
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Sorry, I was assuming that any other drug treatment had already been ruled out. A nappy would be a last resort, of course.


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## lilly1 (31 July 2017)

We've been down the Incurin and Proin routes. No change.  No infections either. I think I'm going to have to give nappies a go. Big nappies.


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## meleeka (31 July 2017)

Mine has just started on Propalin. She's no longer leaking any urine.


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## lilly1 (31 July 2017)

We've tried that.  None of these types of medication work because its not a weak bladder that's the problem, its the amount of water she is drinking.  Restricting it is not an option either as her body clearly needs it. I'm glad its working for yours though.


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## Pearlsasinger (31 July 2017)

I think I would ask for a 2nd vet opinion.


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## druid (31 July 2017)

lilly1 said:



			14yo bitch has had urine incontinent issues for a couple of years now.  Some seeping while sleeping and squatting on the floor.  Its got worse over this period and I cant remember the last time she went a day / night without an accident. Despite me being at home a lot and getting up at least twice in the night with her, accidents are frequent and several times during a 24 hour period. 

She's had various tests over time, Last years bloods were fine as are recent ones taken. All blood tests are within the normal ranges.  As well as the usual she's been tested for Addisons and Diabetes.  We've tried a prolonged course of AB  and various medication, no change.  There is clearly something wrong as she drinks too much and her urine is very diluted.  Vet has suggested testing her for Atypical cushings, more to rule this out though as her symptoms are not typical of the disease.  Other possible cause is insipidious diabetes, rare and no test for this. Apart from the medication costing more per month than my mortgage, I've been told she may not be responder to treatment (assuming it is this), nor likely to respond to any medication for atypical cushings (assuming its that). 

Its a nightmare situation and causing major its me or the dog arguments at home. If she was otherwise unwell I'd pts but she's not.  This is a dog that's super sharp, high energy and shows little sign of old age.  She shows no distress in having accidents, far from it, she walks round like lady in the manor. 

Help
		
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I'd test for Diabetes insipidus. Not sure who told you it wasn't able to be tested for - water deprivation test or modified water deprivation is simple and only requires a day stay at the vet clinic


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## gunnergundog (31 July 2017)

OK....so if UTIs and spey incontinene/old age weak bladder have been ruled out as well as diabetes and addisons then I would be doing blood profiles for kidney and liver issues, plus cushings and cancer.


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## lilly1 (31 July 2017)

This is a different vet.  Both vets have been thorough with the the range of testing.  Both have consulted with specialist vet hosps as well.  She's an unusual case apparently and in remarkable health otherwise.


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## lilly1 (31 July 2017)

All of those have been done 3 x over apart from Cushings.  Vet thinks unlikely to be cushings but we can test.  I've been told if it is atpyical cushings there is no medication for her hence not a lot to gain on a practical level.


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## lilly1 (31 July 2017)

Thanks.  We can do this but apparently withdrawing the water has significant risks.


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## Amymay (31 July 2017)

In the meantime - doggie nappies.


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## druid (31 July 2017)

lilly1 said:



			Thanks.  We can do this but apparently withdrawing the water has significant risks.
		
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If done in clinic under supervision, not really


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## sav123 (31 July 2017)

lilly1 said:



			14yo bitch has had urine incontinent issues for a couple of years now.  *Some seeping while sleeping* and squatting on the floor.  Its got worse over this period and I cant remember the last time she went a day / night without an accident. Despite me being at home a lot and getting up at least twice in the night with her, accidents are frequent and several times during a 24 hour period. 

She's had various tests over time, Last years bloods were fine as are recent ones taken. All blood tests are within the normal ranges.  As well as the usual she's been tested for Addisons and Diabetes.  We've tried a prolonged course of AB  and various medication, no change.  *There is clearly something wrong as she drinks too much and her urine is very diluted.  Vet has suggested testing her for Atypical cushings*, more to rule this out though as her symptoms are not typical of the disease.  Other possible cause is insipidious diabetes, rare and no test for this. Apart from the medication costing more per month than my mortgage, I've been told she may not be responder to treatment (assuming it is this), nor likely to respond to any medication for atypical cushings (assuming its that). 

Its a nightmare situation and causing major its me or the dog arguments at home. If she was otherwise unwell I'd pts but she's not.  This is a dog that's super sharp, high energy and shows little sign of old age.  She shows no distress in having accidents, far from it, she walks round like lady in the manor. 

Help
		
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My friend had similar with her older dog. He was needing to go out several times during the evening and night, and a few times, wet himself when he was in a really deep sleep. He was also drinking a lot. Went to the vet and had a urine test first off which showed very dilute urine. Followed by blood tests to check liver, kidneys, diabetes, etc. All ok so on the vet's recommendation, he then had a Cushings test which came back positive. He started on Vetrynol (?sp) and after 2-3 weeks, returned to lasting through the night without needing to go out or wetting himself.

From what my friend said, the only real Cushings symptoms her dog showed were the excessive drinking and urination.

You don't say whether she's had any sort of Cushings tests at all? If she hasn't, may be worth doing, even if only to rule it out?


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## Luci07 (1 August 2017)

My old girl was doing this and sadly it was a tumour in her bladder. We worked a compromise with piles of towels over her bed, and out a lot. I even got used to being up several times in the night to let her out. Hope you find a resolution


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## GirlFriday (2 August 2017)

On a practical level not sure of size of dog and if a dog flap (into securely fenced area/even something like a small aviary for security depending on doggie dimensions) would be possible for you? If outside not practical would a litter tray (puppy pads/fake grass/whatever she would use) etc be an option? https://www.petplanet.co.uk/product...MI65uooLa31QIVR7XtCh3ygQf2EAQYAiABEgJV9_D_BwE type of thing?

Obviously aim for the tests as a priority. But in the short term / assuming long term treatment isn't enough it might be worth a shot to avoid the middle of night trips out for you?


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## rara007 (2 August 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I think I would ask for a 2nd vet opinion.
		
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This. And if no joy a specialist opinion. Water deprivation test if indicated but it doesn't sound like we're necessarily at that point yet. Everything needs to be done in a sensible order but it doesn't sound like she's had an abdominal scan/radiography and full testing for cushings yet? (Was it low dose dex that ruled out addisons?) What's her USG usually?


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## Moobli (2 August 2017)

A mystery.  It sounds like all the usual suspects have been tested for and come back negative.  I hope you get to the root of the problem because obviously something is not quite right.


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## paddi22 (2 August 2017)

it sounds like diabetes, but im sure they checked for that?


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## Limit (5 August 2017)

MY vet suggested we try Uralin for our 14 year old collie bitch . It worked really well for about a year, sadly, it was then time to say "goodbye". 

Good luck


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## horseperson (5 August 2017)

CSJ dog foods do a suppliment called Hold It,  my friends dog is on this and is doing well no accidents.  The meds that the vets gave her didnt work either.


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## TheOldTrout (5 August 2017)

When one of my jrts was drinking and weeing a lot, it turned out to be kidney trouble. Nephritis??? (It was a while ago so my memory's not reliable.) She had medication and a low protein diet.


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## TheOldTrout (5 August 2017)

What sort of dog is she?


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## Cinnamontoast (5 August 2017)

Following this with interest. Big dog is erratically faecally incontinent, fortunately it's always solid! The back end is very weak generally, but the vet couldn't suggest anything when he went this week (different issue).


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## maggie62 (5 August 2017)

This is an extract regarding diabetes insipidus diagnosis and treatment.
Your dog will need to be hospitalized, at least initially, for a modified water deprivation test. An ADH trial can often be performed as an outpatient procedure. If the cause is found to be neurogenic DI, the condition may be treated with vasopressin injections. The prognosis depends on the severity of the head trauma, or in other cases, on the severity of kidney disease.


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## maggie62 (5 August 2017)

cinnamontoast said:



			Following this with interest. Big dog is erratically faecally incontinent, fortunately it's always solid! The back end is very weak generally, but the vet couldn't suggest anything when he went this week (different issue).
		
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I had a labrador whose back end became increasingly weak and had at times faecal incontinence which I am sure was related to some spinal problem. She was about 12yrs old and I decided even if there had been an operative cure I would not put her through it and my vets (Royal Dick veterinary college) agreed. She had recently had mammary tumours removed which was a fairly radical procedure. Her rear end became almost paralysed and I had to take her out with a sling under her tummy to support her.......distressing as she was still a very bright dog. I had to make the heartbreaking decision to PTS. 
Your dog may have another issue and treatments have moved on a lot since......(8 yrs ago). Hope your boy is ok......picking up poo is no big deal as long as he is in no pain / discomfort and his quality of life is good.


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## {97702} (5 August 2017)

cinnamontoast said:



			Following this with interest. Big dog is erratically faecally incontinent, fortunately it's always solid! The back end is very weak generally, but the vet couldn't suggest anything when he went this week (different issue).
		
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This was the final sign for me that it was Islay's time - I was sitting on the patio and saw her wander into the kitchen, then suddenly turn and dash outside - she just made it outside before she poo'd.  She had been increasingly weak on her back end, and I knew the time was right


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## Cinnamontoast (5 August 2017)

Oh gawd, I hope I'm not being over optimistic: he's very weak behind. The hips splay and he sometimes lies like a frog. He falls over onto his front sometimes. He has arthritis in his right fore and is very lame on it currently, so has Rimadyl and is lots better today (day 3) The vet says this will probably be permanent. He does still run round the field quite happily, so he's coming on holiday with us at the end of the month. He's lively, wants food and to go out but is being rested. 

If I thought for a moment the he was suffering, I would PTS, even if it broke my heart. His neurological test where the foot is turned backwards was very positive, he righted himself immediately. 

Sorry for hijack, OP.


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## Alec Swan (6 August 2017)

lily1,  in your shoes I'd put the dog's self respect and dignity before my own feelings and send the poor old dear off to heaven.

Nappies?  Have others taken leave of their senses?

Alec.


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## twiggy2 (6 August 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			lily1,  in your shoes I'd put the dog's self respect and dignity before my own feelings and send the poor old dear off to heaven.

Nappies?  Have others taken leave of their senses?

Alec.
		
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I agree


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## maggie62 (6 August 2017)

cinnamontoast said:



			Oh gawd, I hope I'm not being over optimistic: he's very weak behind. The hips splay and he sometimes lies like a frog. He falls over onto his front sometimes. He has arthritis in his right fore and is very lame on it currently, so has Rimadyl and is lots better today (day 3) The vet says this will probably be permanent. He does still run round the field quite happily, so he's coming on holiday with us at the end of the month. He's lively, wants food and to go out but is being rested. 

If I thought for a moment the he was suffering, I would PTS, even if it broke my heart. His neurological test where the foot is turned backwards was very positive, he righted himself immediately. 

Sorry for hijack, OP.
		
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Don't worry...........you know your dog and if and when the time comes you will know whats best for him.......but he sounds like he has plenty of life left.


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## ester (6 August 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			lily1,  in your shoes I'd put the dog's self respect and dignity before my own feelings and send the poor old dear off to heaven.

Nappies?  Have others taken leave of their senses?

Alec.
		
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even though the OP specifically said:

This is a dog that's super sharp, high energy and shows little sign of old age. She shows no distress in having accidents, far from it, she walks round like lady in the manor.


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## Alec Swan (6 August 2017)

ester said:



			even though the OP specifically said:

This is a dog that's super sharp, high energy and shows little sign of old age. She shows no distress in having accidents, far from it, she walks round like lady in the manor.
		
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Yes,  even though &#8230;. and if an ageing dog which has always been clean in the house seems oblivious to the slip-ups,  then one might expect that senility is coming in to play.

Alec.


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## Clodagh (6 August 2017)

I would never keep a dog going that was persistently incontinent, for the dogs self respect as well as once house training is over, my clearing up (except for illness) is past. I had my lurcher PTS when she started losing her back end and couldn't get up again, it was awful to watch. She was not incontinient (apart from the odd UTI as she aged, which responded to ABs and then for the last 6 months was on low dose propalin.)
Those of you who don't mind having dogs that cannot support themselves(incontinence aside) do you not feel it must be awful for the dog to have to scrabble and writhe until you pick it up and put it back on it's feet?


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## Pearlsasinger (6 August 2017)

Clodagh said:



			I would never keep a dog going that was persistently incontinent, for the dogs self respect as well as once house training is over, my clearing up (except for illness) is past. I had my lurcher PTS when she started losing her back end and couldn't get up again, it was awful to watch. She was not incontinient (apart from the odd UTI as she aged, which responded to ABs and then for the last 6 months was on low dose propalin.)
Those of you who don't mind having dogs that cannot support themselves(incontinence aside) do you not feel it must be awful for the dog to have to scrabble and writhe until you pick it up and put it back on it's feet?
		
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I have always taken this as a sign that 'the time' has come.  We have had several elderly Labradors, and if they are otherwise healthy, they are prone to arthritis of the back legs, which finishes them off.


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## meleeka (6 August 2017)

My dog has just been put on medication. Her incontience is an old bitch condition much like people get and not related to arthritis . She doesn't even know she's done it as usually happens when she's asleep. I definitely wouldn't consider pts when she's otherwise healthy and it's not distressing her in any way.  Thankfully the medicine has helped a lot. 

My last old dog was pts because his back legs went. We'd been through medication including steroids and once they didn't work anymore I knew it was time. He wasn't even old in himself which made it all the harder. He was never incontinent though so the two aren't always linked.


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## Cinnamontoast (6 August 2017)

maggie62 said:



			Don't worry...........you know your dog and if and when the time comes you will know whats best for him.......but he sounds like he has plenty of life left.
		
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Given how lively the little lad is today, I'm a lot happier. He is now weight bearing on his bad fore. 



ester said:



			even though the OP specifically said:

This is a dog that's super sharp, high energy and shows little sign of old age. She shows no distress in having accidents, far from it, she walks round like lady in the manor.
		
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Same, I wouldn't PTS just because of incontinence, which is an inconvenience to the owner, not the dog unless it can't get up. That would make me call the vet to come round, which we did for big dog's brother on the day after we found out he couldn't walk. 

I won't keep mine going for selfish reasons, he stumbles and falls, but otherwise is galloping round chasing pigeons, swimming and is generally very fit. He currently has a good quality of life and is very happy.


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## Dry Rot (7 August 2017)

I shot my beloved 'Foxy' last night. I had this dog from a pup and she was with me 24 hours a day. She'd been to the vet's who wanted to open her up for exploratory surgery. The x-rays showed nothing conclusive. She had been fussy over her food for weeks, was gradually losing weight, and finally stopped eating. I suspect cancer but at ten she'd had a good life and I wanted to spare her what the OP's dogs seems to be going through. Foxy was always spotless in the house and I'd trained her to ask to go out when she wanted. But she had an accident and I could see she was mortified by it. Time to call it a day and for her to leave this world with dignity.

Death is a matter of timing. Everything dies. To keep an animal hanging on with the dubious "help" of veterinary meddling is, to my mind, simply selfishness. I always put my old dogs down myself. They don't like going to the vet's and I don't want to subject them to that. I have shot and fished all my life and I make sure they are never aware of what is about to happen, but rather alert to something they enjoy, in this case the possibility of hunting rabbits although she was past chasing anything.

I don't post on this forum much these days and only do so now because this has left such a big hole in my life. Please, OP, do the right thing by your dog. I am sure she is as upset as you are whenever there is an accident. You will just be prolonging the inevitable for no good reason.


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## Clodagh (7 August 2017)

DR - I am so sorry about Foxy. She will leave a big gap in your life.


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## Moobli (7 August 2017)

Such sad news about Foxy.  I am so sorry Dry Rot.  Your dogs all enjoy a wonderful life so I hope you can take some comfort from that.


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## Alec Swan (7 August 2017)

Derry my friend,  I am so sorry to hear of your news.

I remember Foxy from when she was young and you used to put up pics.  As I said at the time,  and as she remained,  to my mind she was perhaps as close to perfection as any GSD bitch which I have ever seen.  Perhaps it was her expression which exuded confidence and as she was your constant companion,  I've no doubt that she 'grew' with you and acquired a countenance.

You haven't been on AAD much over the last few months,  and I thought to write to you several times to enquire how life's treating you,  but then thought 'tomorrow'!  You've saved me the job!  Apart from your loss,  I hope that this note finds you well.

Alec.

[edit] I didn't read all of your post to start with,  but now that I have and in your plea,  not a word out of place.  It isn't easy,  there is always a hole left,  but when we put the interest of the animal before our own,  then we have done what's right.


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## Cinnamontoast (7 August 2017)

So sorry, Dry Rot.


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## gunnergundog (8 August 2017)

Good to see you posting again Dry Rot, albeit sad the circumstances that bring you to do so.  You're a brave man. Sweet dreams Foxy.


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## MurphysMinder (8 August 2017)

I'm sorry to hear about Foxy DR.    Nearly 10 is too young to have to lose her,  time goes so fast doesn't it,  seems no time since you were posting about her pups.   At least you have them to remind you of  her .

With regard to OP,   if a dog was really not bothered by the incontinence then I would just carry on.   However once any of my dogs start struggling to get up,  or falling over more than occasionally then I feel it is time to let them go for me personally.


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## lilly1 (15 August 2017)

To update; cushings test came back inconclusive.  We have started her on DI medication and should know soon enough if its this and if its treatable.  

I've always been of the rather a week too early camp when it comes to letting them go; its just in this case its not that straight forward, to me anyway, as apart from the water intake and output she is a bright and otherwise healthy. If she was going off her legs, not enjoying life etc I'd make the call but she's not.  I wish she was frankly as making the decision would be a lot easier.  Today for example I was late taking them for a walk and she goes on and on at me until I take her.  Skipping a walk with this dog is not an option! She has a good 1 hour walk off lead every day and she runs rings around my younger dog.


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## lilly1 (15 August 2017)

Sorry to hear about your dog Dry Rot

This is a recent pic of mine.  Still wading in water to fetch sticks.  I just don't think its her time yet.


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## {97702} (15 August 2017)

Lovely picture Lily1 - I can see why it is such a difficult decision to let her go <3


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## Alec Swan (15 August 2017)

lilly1 said:



			&#8230;&#8230;...  I just don't think its her time yet. 

&#8230;&#8230;..
		
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It isn't.  The time will come,  there's no question of that,  but not yet and not whilst she engages with you.

A grand and elderly lady, I'd suggest.

Alec.


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## ester (15 August 2017)

Thanks for the update Lily, she looks great. Fingers crossed the meds maybe help.

Bit of a change of mind from earlier there Alec.


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## lilly1 (15 August 2017)

Another pic of her at the beach not long ago.  She may be old and incontinent but she still has a zest for life


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## Cinnamontoast (15 August 2017)

You're right, Lilly, it's not her time yet. She looks full of beans.


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## Alec Swan (15 August 2017)

lilly1 said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..







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I hope that you save this pic.  It's 'Her',  isn't it?

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (15 August 2017)

ester said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Bit of a change of mind from earlier there Alec.
		
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Neither my life nor my thoughts have ever been set in stone.  In this case,  I'm delighted to be wrong.

Alec.


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## lilly1 (15 August 2017)

I've got loads of action shots over the years. She (Annie) has always been an up for anything type dog.  At one point I didn't think she'd make it to old age given the amount of high speed accidents and trips to the vet.  She's been stitched back up a few times over the years and was pretty wild in her heyday.  She's had a good life and whatever happens I'll not let her suffer.  She's always been a free spirit and she'll go with dignity while she can still do what she enjoys.  Getting out and about is her priority, she really doesn't care how many times she piddles on my floor.


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## Chiffy (16 August 2017)

So sorry to read about Foxy, Dry Rot. Too soon. I don't hang on to them too long either. Have missed you on here.

Glad your dog is feeling better though Lilly, I am sure you will do what is best for her.


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## lilly1 (23 August 2017)

Another update. The DI medication did nothing so we are back to the cushings theory.  I really thought it was DI.  She's has another blood test for cushings today and should get the results soon. If its not cushings there is nowhere else to go :0(.


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