# Aggressive Youngster



## EQUIDAE (25 August 2015)

First post so please be gentle with me...

I have recently purchased a 2yo colt and it is quite clear that he has been knocked about in his previous home(s). 

A bit about me - I have had several youngsters over the past years including colts and also horses that have been rough handled in previous homes. All of them have eventually turned into lovely, loving horses.

Woody however has me stumped...

He is a colt and as soon as the weather changes his boy bits will be coming off so at least then we can take testosterone out of the picture. In the meantime he is having a high fibre feed as he was very poor and agnus castus for his 'desires'. 

The problem I am having is that he isn't scared, he is distrustful. At first I though it was that he had been roughly handled and was scared but as time goes on I believe he isn't scared in the slightest, he just now doesn't trust people, especially men.

His first week he spent in quarantine with my other colt on the opposite side of my U-shaped yard as company, then he was turned out 24/7 with him, and my yearling. The first week I didn't do lots with him but got him used to being tied up, being led (he was sold as halter broken but it was more like halter dragged) and also just generally having someone in his space. It became evident pretty quickly that if he was uncomfortable he would turn his bum so he could kick. As soon as you have his head he is fine - he's just very evasive. So much treating when facing forwards and ignoring the bum.

Since he has been turned out he is getting more trusting - he will approach for a scratch but will stand as far away as possible so you can only just reach him. Yesterday we had a breakthrough and he let me scratch his shoulder and withers and he whuffled my hair. I also managed to catch a hold of his headcollar at this point for the first time too. His response was a half hearted rear - I held on and when he came down gave him a scratch and a handful of feed. I then let go and repeated holding his headcollar without any reaction so he got fuss and I let him go.

Now the issue is that he is still really keen to double barrel you if you push him out of his comfort zone. And it seems he is also keep to double barrel my other half for totally nothing - he was just walking through the field to fill his water up and he charged him and double barrelled him missing his head by inches! At first I didn't believe him, I thought he had done something to threaten him but he was on the opposite side of the field and he charged at him. I had my other half wave his arms at him (he has limited horsey experience but can handle all of my others with ease) and Woody just kept coming at him. I am now being the only one to handle him in the meantime (wearing hat and body protector).

And that is what has me worried - he isn't afraid, he just doesn't trust and if threatened will actually attack. If I hadn't seen it for myself I wouldn't have believed it.

I'm concentrating on winning his trust, not rewarding bad behaviour, and dealing with aggressive behaviour with big posture and dropping it as soon as he behaves. It seems to be working to a degree but it is a long as slow process. Has anyone had any experience of a super aggressive horse - any good stories? I'm feeling a little dejected at the mo with him and cannot wait until mid September when his goolies will come off!


----------



## Piaffe123 (25 August 2015)

In fairness, a lack of trust seems to me to come from fear. Horses aren't aggressive animals naturally without feeling threatened in some way!

It sounds to me like it is just a case of building things up very slow and positively reinforcing every "normal" behaviour he demonstrates, as you did when he let you hold his headcollar. An interesting post for you to find might be AdorableAlice's "my next project horse" topic (I think it's in the Tack Room section). He wasn't aggressive but was also rather nervy to be handled at first, may be some tips in there?

Hope you manage to get through to him xx


----------



## Shay (25 August 2015)

Our ISH could be termed aggressive. I certainly called him that for most of the first two years with us!   If he thinks you are going to threaten him he will take the fight to you first.  He was 7 when we got him, Irish broke and used for BS.

He behaved very much as your colt seems to - the only refinement being he would also strike forward with one hind leg to take out the person trying to mount, or the tack checker at competitions.  So it wasn't just the double barrel.  He would also rear up, crow hop forward and box with his front legs. He too seems worse with men.

I can't point to any one thing we did right - or wrong really.  Over time he has come to trust us and is actually quite sweet.  He longs for a leader and if you can explain to him that you are a good leader for him he relaxes and becomes a really wonderful affectionate horse.  But if he thinks he has to be the leader he is hyper aware and will kill you before you can touch him.  If there is a fraction of fear he'll take over and probably have you.  If you are too dominant with him he'll have you.  Usually before you've even thought about him - he's as quick as a snake!  But if you are calm, consistent, firm but really gentle and fair he'll be the same.  He is also the most intelligent horse I have ever met - don't know if that has anything to do with it.  His learning capacity has always astounded me.

There are still things we can't do.  We can't carry or hold a whip near him.  We can't raise arms, move suddenly or gesticulate widely.  You have to be calm around him and not agitated for any reason (good discipline as his rider was 13 when we bought him - no teen sized tempers possible!)  Oddly we also can't tie up outside the stable as he will panic and pull back - although he will tie up to the horse box at a  show.  But once you can explain something to him in a way he understands he will try his heart out for you to get it right.

So - no perfect answers for you.  But at least a story of hope.   They do come good with good horsemanship.  (Or in our case best efforts at good horsemanship...!!)


----------



## EQUIDAE (25 August 2015)

Thanks so much - I was half expecting calls of PTS or sell him to someone who can deal with him 

It's good that they can come good - he is fearful, he just doesn't react as if he is.


----------



## Piaffe123 (25 August 2015)

I know what you mean, when they're reacting that confidently (not sure if that's the right word but sure you know what I mean) it's difficult to label it as fear but I'd be very surprised if it was really anything else.

I'm sure you're capable of helping him, you've already demonstrated in your post you're compassionate and calm enough to reward him appropriately for the good behaviour. If a horse has experienced nothing but threatening behaviour then really you just need to be very positive and encouraging any good behaviour as soon as he does it.

I'm sure he'll come right it'll just take patience and lots of love.


----------



## Barnacle (25 August 2015)

First off let me say I'm sure this will be simple to resolve and not at all a lost cause.

However, this horse is a two year-old entire colt. In other words, he is a stallion. Not a full-blown stud, but a stallion with stallion instincts nonetheless. It's a mistake to think horses can't be aggressive without being fearful. Stallions show aggression towards each other all the time in the "wild" and their way of getting mares and foals to move around is rather "aggressive" also. In bachelor herds young stallions play rough with each other in a semi-aggressive way that, if directed at a human, would be deadly and feel very threatening. 

This is all "natural" behaviour and not an indication that there's anything wrong with the horse or its past handling. It's just at a certain stage of its life, with a certain amount of testosterone fueling its behaviour and not enough guidance from humans to shape this into something more manageable. Yes, some horses are aggressive because they are fearful. Those horses will act aggressive when "defending" themselves. Charging at someone at the other end of a field is not defensive...

If he were mine, I'd be trying to do 2 things.

Firstly, I'd try to put him in with mature horses that can put him in his place. Youngsters need someone around to teach them manners. In a "natural" setting this would be their mother, the rest of the herd and the herd stallion. Once they left and joined a bachelor herd, the older bachelors would take on that role. This teaches youngsters several things. Firstly it teaches them the consequences of their actions (i.e. that they might just get kicked back) and secondly teaches them self-control so that they do not play too roughly. Learning self-control is really important for when we have to handle them because we need them to be even gentler than they are with each other. If you've ever had a horse "groom" you, you know what I mean! If they go about their lives thinking they can do as they please, it's that bit more difficult to adjust their behaviour so that they are safe for us. If older horses are not available as teachers, the human has to take on the role.

The second thing I'd do is assess how mature the horse is physically. If he is a mature-looking horse, I'd start doing some free schooling (no tack obviously) to get him focusing and respectful of my space. If not, I would start dishing out some consequences. On the one hand, you want the horse to be friendly and so it's good to reward good behaviour. On the other hand, if the horse charges you, you need to be holding a whip and respond immediately. I would never hit a horse in this situation unless it was actually about to kick me and I was protecting myself but a good lash at the ground will usually do the trick and show them that there is a real consequence to their actions. Making your body larger and posturing will do it too but the more clear the message, the quicker you can nip this in the proverbial bud and if you watch horses with each other, a warning kick in the air is a very clear signal!

If you watch horses out with each other, they will threaten each other, chase each other off feed, even outright bite/kick each other but they can also walk up to each other 5 minutes later and start mutually grooming. This is what I think our relationship with horses should be like as well. We should be able to clearly tell them off (without hurting them) and then invite them over for a treat and a scratch.


----------



## Sealine (25 August 2015)

He wasn't hand reared was he? 

I've known one that was a real puzzler. On one hand he was scared of everything yet at the same time he didn't fear people as they provided food and bottle fed him. Any new situation was a major trauma for him. He needs very quiet, consistent handling as he is a real worrier and looks to handler for confidence. If he doesn't get that confidence from his handler he will throw his toys out of the pram. If people try to bully him at this point he gets worse.


----------



## paddi22 (25 August 2015)

Hope you get him sorted. Off the topic, but the term 'irish-broke' is quite offensive. As an irish horse lover I think its unfair to label a whole race as battering fear into young horse. Sorry its off topic but couldn't bit my tongue! 

Really hope you get to the bottom of his behaviour though!


----------



## EQUIDAE (25 August 2015)

Barnacle - I'm aware how stallions behave (I have a 6yo stallion, a yearling colt and another 2yo colt) and this isn't 'stallion like behaviour'. I'd put him with my stallion and mare but he doesn't seem to be well socialised with other horses and doesn't read cues well from them - hence him being with the yearling and 2yo. I could show you a cracking video of my stallion and yearling rough playing but last time I posted it online I got told one of my horses would end up injured and I was stupid 

Sealine - you could have a point there. His previous owners were keeping him as an entire (I now know why they decided to sell) but they didn't have facilities to keep him so he had been stabled 24/7 since weaning.

Thinking about it it's no wonder he's a lunatic!

Paddi22 - are you replying to another thread? Nowhere have I said 'Irish-broke' - he's only two and barely been handled.


----------



## paddi22 (25 August 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Paddi22 - are you replying to another thread? Nowhere have I said 'Irish-broke' - he's only two and barely been handled.
		
Click to expand...

sorry it was shays comment, should have pointed that out. didn't want to derail thread!


----------



## EQUIDAE (25 August 2015)

paddi22 said:



			sorry it was shays comment, should have pointed that out. didn't want to derail thread!
		
Click to expand...

I never even noticed to be honest. In my experience of bringing horses over from Ireland they do tend to be broken differently to ones on the mainland. A lot seems to be done quite young and it does result in a brave animal. Irish horses are highly desirable - I'm not sure how you can find the term 'Irish-broke' derogatory, it implies that horses broke in Ireland should be seen as inferior which isn't the case. Irish horses command a premium on the mainland.


----------



## EQUIDAE (25 August 2015)

PMSL at referring to an island as 'the mainland'. Oh the irony...


----------



## Pearlsasinger (25 August 2015)

I bought a 4 yr old mare who had been ill-treated by a short, older man as a 2 yr old, kept short of food, as was carefully explained to me by the vendor, who had originally sold her to this man and then bought her back.  She was very proud of her food and guarded it aggressively in the first few months that she was with us but gradually grew out of it, as she learned that her food was entirely hers and she would not be kept short.

A few yrs later our Section A picked up a minor injury in the field.  YO who was a short, retired farmer went into the field to check her and my mare rushed across the field and double-barrelled him.  We could only think that she was protecting the Section A from him, as she saw it.  True aggression but fuelled by fear for her friend's safety.  She was not normally a kicker.

OP, I imagine that testosterone is playing a part in your colt's behaviour but he maybe also remembering his previous experiences and 'getting his bit in first'.


----------



## Barnacle (26 August 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Barnacle - I'm aware how stallions behave (I have a 6yo stallion, a yearling colt and another 2yo colt) and this isn't 'stallion like behaviour'. I'd put him with my stallion and mare but he doesn't seem to be well socialised with other horses and doesn't read cues well from them - hence him being with the yearling and 2yo. I could show you a cracking video of my stallion and yearling rough playing but last time I posted it online I got told one of my horses would end up injured and I was stupid 

Sealine - you could have a point there. His previous owners were keeping him as an entire (I now know why they decided to sell) but they didn't have facilities to keep him so he had been stabled 24/7 since weaning.

Thinking about it it's no wonder he's a lunatic!

Paddi22 - are you replying to another thread? Nowhere have I said 'Irish-broke' - he's only two and barely been handled.
		
Click to expand...

That's kind of my point... He's not well-socialised and that's the entire problem. He isn't displaying the behaviour of a normal stallion who knows his place and can exercise self-control. He's displaying the instinctive behaviour of an unsocialised teenage stallion. A horse that doesn't understand cues is a pretty perfect description of one side of the problem. The other side is the self-control.

(By the way, personally, I would not criticise you for letting a stallion play with a youngster. I'm not one of those who thinks stallions are monsters.)


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (26 August 2015)

The natural horsemanship lot rub horses to get them to relax, and you should work on this, starting with the withers area do it for as long as it takes, and make it the initial part of the routine, every routine. Use a glove on a stick to reach the parts behind the girth, and later, the flanks.
Men should be allowed to offer carrots etc, but make sure he does not learn to mug anyone. He should learn to associate carrot and face rubbing [headcollar is kept on all the time so no bum turning]
Then intoduce other people to do the same thing, , in the meantime your OH and other men like the farrier [asuming he is horse empathetic] should meet him. Ask your farrier and you man to leave dirtiest and smelliest jumpers with you, keep them in  poly bags and let your boy get used to the smell every day, you can end up with a bit of a rub with them.
Obviousy OH should be very careful, we had a mare who attacked with teeth, and I carried a big stave and bopped her on the teeth when she tried it in the field, and carried it when feeding in the stable, but she had never shown her bum, which is dangerous , obviously.
I would cut him now, and if had the money, I would send him to Sarah Fisher, or go to her for a few days training, I have the Tellington book, but I think you need formal traning.


----------



## FfionWinnie (26 August 2015)

Barnacle said:



			First off let me say I'm sure this will be simple to resolve and not at all a lost cause.

However, this horse is a two year-old entire colt. In other words, he is a stallion. Not a full-blown stud, but a stallion with stallion instincts nonetheless. It's a mistake to think horses can't be aggressive without being fearful. Stallions show aggression towards each other all the time in the "wild" and their way of getting mares and foals to move around is rather "aggressive" also. In bachelor herds young stallions play rough with each other in a semi-aggressive way that, if directed at a human, would be deadly and feel very threatening. 

This is all "natural" behaviour and not an indication that there's anything wrong with the horse or its past handling. It's just at a certain stage of its life, with a certain amount of testosterone fueling its behaviour and not enough guidance from humans to shape this into something more manageable. Yes, some horses are aggressive because they are fearful. Those horses will act aggressive when "defending" themselves. Charging at someone at the other end of a field is not defensive...

If he were mine, I'd be trying to do 2 things.

Firstly, I'd try to put him in with mature horses that can put him in his place. Youngsters need someone around to teach them manners. In a "natural" setting this would be their mother, the rest of the herd and the herd stallion. Once they left and joined a bachelor herd, the older bachelors would take on that role. This teaches youngsters several things. Firstly it teaches them the consequences of their actions (i.e. that they might just get kicked back) and secondly teaches them self-control so that they do not play too roughly. Learning self-control is really important for when we have to handle them because we need them to be even gentler than they are with each other. If you've ever had a horse "groom" you, you know what I mean! If they go about their lives thinking they can do as they please, it's that bit more difficult to adjust their behaviour so that they are safe for us. If older horses are not available as teachers, the human has to take on the role.

The second thing I'd do is assess how mature the horse is physically. If he is a mature-looking horse, I'd start doing some free schooling (no tack obviously) to get him focusing and respectful of my space. If not, I would start dishing out some consequences. On the one hand, you want the horse to be friendly and so it's good to reward good behaviour. On the other hand, if the horse charges you, you need to be holding a whip and respond immediately. I would never hit a horse in this situation unless it was actually about to kick me and I was protecting myself but a good lash at the ground will usually do the trick and show them that there is a real consequence to their actions. Making your body larger and posturing will do it too but the more clear the message, the quicker you can nip this in the proverbial bud and if you watch horses with each other, a warning kick in the air is a very clear signal!

If you watch horses out with each other, they will threaten each other, chase each other off feed, even outright bite/kick each other but they can also walk up to each other 5 minutes later and start mutually grooming. This is what I think our relationship with horses should be like as well. We should be able to clearly tell them off (without hurting them) and then invite them over for a treat and a scratch.
		
Click to expand...

Excellent post. Forget about thinking cruel handling has brought this about.  Not necessarily.  Poor handling/over handling or no handling could all be the causes. It doesn't take much for a horse to learn what works to get their own way. I'm sure you will bring him round with the correct handling such as Barnacle suggests.  Make sure you've always got a hat on around him as well.


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 August 2015)

some good advice already offered but just to add:

you can have him gelded now if you are willing to have him done at the vets and stay in 3/4 days. TBH i dont think they will do a 2yo down in the field now anyway, the blood supply will be too well developed? so he will be healed by time he comes home and no fly issue to worry about.

i bought a 2yo colt in Oct 2014. The plan always was to keep him entire but he had been minimally handled since birth(feet trimmed couple of times a year, no vaccinations etc though) and had just run on in a group of colts.

he was(and still is to a certain degree) not 100% trusting of people. He is a sweetheart, and love bug and not stalliony in the slightests(despite now looking like a 6yo and being built like a sherman tank lol) but if you touch him without him being totally concentrating he will explode away from you. Not kicking as such but he has caught one person by accident  You can walk up to him and lay all over him,scrub and pat and kiss and mess with him AS LONG as he knows its coming. If you eg touch his neck whilst hes looking the other way he still might go broncing off past you!

i have a western trainer working with him and he has really helped (and taught me more tools to have in my toolbox). from what i have seen they take a very through approach to de spooking and de sensitising and the horse quickly learns to accept the crazy rules of the crazy humans lol. Is there anyone who trains western near you? 

im no dummy either, had tricky horses in the past, had stallions in the past and been backing them since i was a teenager but this horse just needed a difference approach and although he is ultimately destined for dressage, im really pleased how the cow pony work is helping him


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (26 August 2015)

You can buy cow pony videos, but not the one which is market leader, that couple of loonies give "natural horsemanship " a bad name.
A round pen is ideal for these horses, but it needs to be a decent size due to kicking.
Otherwise long reining: keeping him in an arena  with very high fencing, or an indoor school.
You will need assistance from a brave and experieced helper, or you should be the helper as it is your horse and you should carry the biggest risk to life and limb.
I would re-iterate, cut him at vets as at that age they can need immediate vet attention, then turn away for a ten days/few weeks. 
The aggressive mare we had got turned out with Magical Blue, a horse who was herd leader in the yard, and very accurate with his kicks [he would not allow any youngsters out on the training gallops to mess about], she got a bit of a minor battering, but it was that or she would have had to live alone for the rest of her life.


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 August 2015)

yes deffo no pratelli lol!!!!!!!!!


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)

I'm afraid we are a long way off rubbing withers and long lining - I can barely touch him yet he is that bad  I had a bit of a breakthrough the other day and managed to rub his neck at the base rather than the top and patted him gently 'good boy' and he absolutely pooed his pants. He's not ready to meet other people yet - I'm keeping it one on one until he accepts contact more.

I wouldn't lunge a 2yo in trot, never mind sending them round and round in canter in a round pen - this one is out I'm afraid. I'm not a fan of the practice anyway as I believe it creates a bond through flooding and learned helplessness, the same way as sacking out does. I'd rather desensitise them gradually so they think it is on their terms and no big deal.

He's learned the word 'back' so I can control his position near me to a degree now - he's starting to respect my personal space a little.

He's also started allowing me to hold onto his headcollar for more than a few seconds now, so I'm going to start leading him around the paddock to get him used to following me rather than backing off.

I know I'll get there with him - I just had a bit of a wobble yesterday.

The idea of sending him into the vets to be done sooner rather than later is a good one, but until he stops trying to attack people I wouldn't out anyone else in danger, he'll be done but at home. Plus I have 3 to have done at the same time  the vets are happy to geld him at home.


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 August 2015)

its entirely up to you but actually i think now is the best time to get a trainer on board-someone who can work through every step with him so that the eventual backing is done by his friend rather than a stranger.

i hear you on the round pen, i dont like small circles either but for a horse showing any kind of aggression this needs sorting NOW and if he has to do a bit more work than the average 2yo to make sure hes not going to kill or disable someone.............thats a risk worth taking IMO.

they are our babies and we are inclined to baby them, just someone with no expectations who doesnt *love* the horse can achieve more as they are so much more neutral about it. thats something i saw with mine-im no fluffy bunny and Goof has had plenty of tellings off for being too rowdy and silly but his western trainer showed me how to do things in a slightly different way, which made the black/white even clearer and has helped with progress.

i totally get you dont want to over work his body, but his mind has got to be safe.


----------



## elliefiz (26 August 2015)

I would have recommended using a good Horsemanship trainer but seems you have made your mind up already about it. Done correctly there is no endless cantering round in circles and there certainly is no flooding or learned helplessness. But something you said says it all, doing things on the horse's terms. If you let the horse do something on their terms you are letting them be the boss and that's where all your problems will stem from. In the wild a badly behaved youngster gets some tough love, indeed I see it every day with my yearling colts who are turned out in a mixed herd. Decent horsemanship replicates these relationships. A horse with no respect for you is always going to be untrustworthy and at times, dangerous.


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)

It's his mind that I am most worried about - though he is slowly coming round 

I'm not babying him though - all of my horses have been with me from youngsters and have turned out well rounded individuals. I hate 'spoile youngster syndrome' - a mare who I just sold was like that. I'm not planning on sending him away to be backed - he will be staying here as all of my others have (he will be my 8th I have backed).

I have an instructor who comes out once a week to give me lessons who also schools my 5yo stallion - she teaches him something new and I continue it. I'm not adverse to getting trainers in but my experience when I was having issues with him was that they tended to be over rough with him as he was a stallion - took ages to find someone who fitted. He didn't need rough handling he just needed someone who was firm but kind.

It is being sorted NOW - but he isn't your average two year old, you can barely touch him without him panicking. I'm sure some of the harsher methods suggested would work with your average two year old but this boy needs to trust first. Don't get me wrong, I've slapped him with the clip end of the lead rope if he has seriously threatened the back end, I just don't see how pushing him out of his comfort zone with 'schooling' is going to help. The only thing he needs to learn is how to be a horse, and a few basic manners. 

Must dig out some piccies...


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)

Cross posted - it has to be on his terms right now. He is scared of humans to the point of being aggressive and you can barely touch him. The first thing he needs to learn is how to be a horse - NH training is great for some but if he doesn't know how to be a horse in the first place no human is going to do that. That is what my other horses are doing. Once he has learned how to communicate with other horses I'm sure communicating with him will be easier. 

Horses do not think in terms of 'winning' that is a human trait - I am not out to win a battle, but to win his trust. 

Introducing someone else to his life right now would flood him, and likely make him regress. I have already seen this with my other half and he wasn't asking him to do anything. He doesn't need 'training' he just needs boundaries establishing which I am already doing.

When offering criticism please remember that he is a horse who has been kept stabled since weaning yet isn't halter broken (totally bizarre setup). His experience isn't normal to what other youngsters have. He doesn't yet fully know how to interact with horses - he certainly doesn't behave anything like my yearling and 2 year old, who had also come from a rough background but had been socialised.


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)




----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)

Learnig how to play


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)

When he first arrived


----------



## Wheels (26 August 2015)

Oh my goodness - not nice behaviour to have to deal with!  When my now 6 year old was a young colt he was a real front leg striker and used to turn towards you to try and catch you.  Scary enough without having two back feet coming towards you!

I'm a bit surprised that people think it's a good idea to be working loose in a round pen, definitely can't get out of the way if they decide to kick then!

I would be doing basic groundwork though - not lunging or long lining but work on a long lead rope and a halter.  This can actually help you to build a relationship, to really work on something together and to progress.  There are a few easy exercises that even a very young horse can do, certainly your 2 year old and now that you are going to start teaching him to lead then I would be working on them straight away.

Firstly in your case I would be teaching him to yield his hindquarters away - he can't kick you if you are able to send his hindquarters in the opposite direction.  Once practised it can be done at quite a distance which sounds like it could be of great benefit to you!  The easiest way to start this off is to stand at his shoulder, take a feel on the lead rope so he slightly flexes his head towards you and then you have two options - you can either use the back of your hand on his quarters or you can just try purposefully walking into his space by making a small half circle from shoulder to quarters, all you want at first is a step and then you can build it up from there, more steps, bigger distances.  Sometimes they react well if you gently swing the lead rope towards the quarters (without touching) and this might also be a safer option for you.  The biggest aid in this case is your intent!!


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)




----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (26 August 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			I'm afraid we are a long way off rubbing withers and long lining - I can barely touch him yet he is that bad  I had a bit of a breakthrough the other day and managed to rub his neck at the base rather than the top and patted him gently 'good boy' and he absolutely pooed his pants. He's not ready to meet other people yet - I'm keeping it one on one until he accepts contact more.

I wouldn't lunge a 2yo in trot, never mind sending them round and round in canter in a round pen - this one is out I'm afraid. I'm not a fan of the practice anyway as I believe it creates a bond through flooding and learned helplessness, the same way as sacking out does. I'd rather desensitise them gradually so they think it is on their terms and no big deal.

He's learned the word 'back' so I can control his position near me to a degree now - he's starting to respect my personal space a little.

He's also started allowing me to hold onto his headcollar for more than a few seconds now, so I'm going to start leading him around the paddock to get him used to following me rather than backing off.

I know I'll get there with him - I just had a bit of a wobble yesterday.

The idea of sending him into the vets to be done sooner rather than later is a good one, but until he stops trying to attack people I wouldn't out anyone else in danger, he'll be done but at home. Plus I have 3 to have done at the same time  the vets are happy to geld him at home.
		
Click to expand...

I think you are wrong, last month we had a mare off the hills, never seen a human close to, never had a headcollar, nothing, terrified of people: within three days she is headcollared and is able to go to and fro to the round pen where she has her haynet today. Day four she is standing in the roundpen looking out at her new friends in the next field while a big blue tarp flaps in the wind. She is only able to be handled properly by the trainer, the owner needs him to catch her. I think she cost about £50 and was bought unseen in a a pub, she is stunning, of course the owner has no idea, they are thinking "$$$$$$$$$"
She was tootling round one way and the other on day two, and is able to come towards a carrot [on day one she ran to the back of her box], today she looks over door as long as no one comes close.
On day three the owner can rub her withers when she is handed the horse on headcollar and rope, and it is in the round pen.
No way would one be able to hold on a leadrope and "Back" but she is rubbed today and every day.
She is not "being lunged" she is learning to move away from the trainer when asked and to turn when asked. She is not being "lunged" and every question we ask of her is for a reason.
In about four weeks she will be expected to go out and come in every day to and from a field with no stress. 
Once she is happy and not stressed, she can learn to walk in hand, and to turn and to back. 
She will be a super driving horse, but she needs to get her confidence back.
Makes me rather envious that people can but a HOYS potential for  £50 in a pub, I wanted her , so much............


----------



## Wheels (26 August 2015)

where are you based EQUIDAE?

I agree that introducing someone else might upset the apple cart further but that would depend on WHO you introduce!  A really good horseman/woman would no doubt be of benefit as they really can get the best out of types like this


----------



## Wheels (26 August 2015)

& how are you going to instill manners if you don't do anything with him?


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)

Wheels said:



			Firstly in your case I would be teaching him to yield his hindquarters away - he can't kick you if you are able to send his hindquarters in the opposite direction.  Once practised it can be done at quite a distance which sounds like it could be of great benefit to you!  The easiest way to start this off is to stand at his shoulder, take a feel on the lead rope so he slightly flexes his head towards you and then you have two options - you can either use the back of your hand on his quarters or you can just try purposefully walking into his space by making a small half circle from shoulder to quarters, all you want at first is a step and then you can build it up from there, more steps, bigger distances.  Sometimes they react well if you gently swing the lead rope towards the quarters (without touching) and this might also be a safer option for you.  The biggest aid in this case is your intent!!
		
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I would normally do but I have only been able to get a leadrope on him in the past couple of days. I'd say we have mastered standing still and not trying to rear or bolt .

I can however now get him to back up from posture and voice. Whereas before he would have spun and been off with someone coming into his space, now he will take a few steps back.

Sadly he will not allow you to touch him any further down than the base of his neck - his withers are out of bounds yet. Trying to touch him further round his body just results in him spinning round - I know this is what the aim of the exercise is but it needs to be me asking him, not him trying to get away from me.

I do feel for the poor boy but we will get there


----------



## fburton (26 August 2015)

elliefiz said:



			Decent horsemanship replicates these relationships. A horse with no respect for you is always going to be untrustworthy and at times, dangerous.
		
Click to expand...

Well, this is certainly the NH view, and perhaps the traditional one too? It isn't the only valid or effective one. You could also obtain the behaviours you want and call this 'respect' (if you must) rather than trying to obtain 'respect' first and expecting good behaviour to flow from that. Getting good behaviour needn't _necessarily_ involve 'tough love' (which sounds like a euphemism for...?), whereas who you suggest seems to imply that 'tough love' is mandatory to get respect, which itself is needed to obtain good behaviour. That's what it sounds like anyway - please correct me if I have misread you!


----------



## fburton (26 August 2015)

Wheels said:



			& how are you going to instill manners if you don't do anything with him?
		
Click to expand...

Yup, teaching needs some kind of interaction!


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)

Wheels said:



			& how are you going to instill manners if you don't do anything with him?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not 'not' doing anything with him. Actually just catching him has been a major success! And by catching I mean him coming to me willingly, not chasing him around until he gives in, or bribing with treats.

He will back up.

I can attach a lead rope and he's no longer trying to bolt or rear.

3 things you couldn't do 3 weeks ago, hardly not doing anything.

2 weeks ago it took two of us to get him out to the field, now he will stand calmly with the lead rope attached and tension on it.


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)

fburton said:



			Yup, teaching needs some kind of interaction!
		
Click to expand...

Erm I am interacting with him... Every day


----------



## Wheels (26 August 2015)

please don't get defensive - people are only trying to help 

you had said somewhere that schooling wasn't the answer so you either are schooling or you aren't schooling lol  

anyway probably just a mis communication


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 August 2015)

elliefiz said:



			I would have recommended using a good Horsemanship trainer but seems you have made your mind up already about it. Done correctly there is no endless cantering round in circles and there certainly is no flooding or learned helplessness. But something you said says it all, doing things on the horse's terms. If you let the horse do something on their terms you are letting them be the boss and that's where all your problems will stem from. In the wild a badly behaved youngster gets some tough love, indeed I see it every day with my yearling colts who are turned out in a mixed herd. Decent horsemanship replicates these relationships. A horse with no respect for you is always going to be untrustworthy and at times, dangerous.
		
Click to expand...

agree with all this.



EQUIDAE said:



			It's his mind that I am most worried about - though he is slowly coming round 

I'm not babying him though - all of my horses have been with me from youngsters and have turned out well rounded individuals. I hate 'spoile youngster syndrome' - a mare who I just sold was like that. I'm not planning on sending him away to be backed - he will be staying here as all of my others have (he will be my 8th I have backed).

I have an instructor who comes out once a week to give me lessons who also schools my 5yo stallion - she teaches him something new and I continue it. I'm not adverse to getting trainers in but my experience when I was having issues with him was that they tended to be over rough with him as he was a stallion - took ages to find someone who fitted. He didn't need rough handling he just needed someone who was firm but kind.

It is being sorted NOW - but he isn't your average two year old, you can barely touch him without him panicking. I'm sure some of the harsher methods suggested would work with your average two year old but this boy needs to trust first. Don't get me wrong, I've slapped him with the clip end of the lead rope if he has seriously threatened the back end, I just don't see how pushing him out of his comfort zone with 'schooling' is going to help. The only thing he needs to learn is how to be a horse, and a few basic manners. 

Must dig out some piccies...
		
Click to expand...

i maybe didnt explain very well, its not babying in the sense of letting them do whatever because you wub them, its that emotional connection/response that a stranger doesnt have. it can be so subconcious and can make a real difference.

he needs schooling to know how to interact with people and have manners. I wouldnt got beyond that but some work in a pen or on a lunge line will possibly speed things along to a safe point where he then CAN be treated like a normal youngster.

mine wasnt quite so bad but you couldnt pick feet up, rug him, or touch under tummy/back legs etc. it only took 2 weeks to have this totally sorted, so just a bit of this sort of *schooling* goes a long way .


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)

Wheels said:



			please don't get defensive - people are only trying to help 

you had said somewhere that schooling wasn't the answer so you either are schooling or you aren't schooling lol  

anyway probably just a mis communication
		
Click to expand...

I took 'schooling' to mean taking him into the arena and working him. In order to do this he needs to learn how to lead properly and not flinch as soon as anything touches him.

I'm getting defensive as people are saying I'm not doing anything with him - I am. I'm not a novice horse owner who has never handled youngsters before, I do have a bit of experience behind me. I'm not adverse to trainers - I use one already as I mentioned earlier. I just don't see the point in getting a trainer to do what I can do myself, and create a bond and respect in the process.



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			he needs schooling to know how to interact with people and have manners. I wouldnt got beyond that but some work in a pen or on a lunge line will possibly speed things along to a safe point where he then CAN be treated like a normal youngster.

mine wasnt quite so bad but you couldnt pick feet up, rug him, or touch under tummy/back legs etc. it only took 2 weeks to have this totally sorted, so just a bit of this sort of *schooling* goes a long way .
		
Click to expand...

He is learning how to interact with people - I'm working with him every day. I just wouldn't call it schooling. He isn't at the stage where lunging would be appropriate - he's come to me completely unhandled and distrustful and the absolute basics need establishing first.

He's only been here for 3 weeks, and I've only actually been able to catch him for a few days. Initially when led him he would rear and charge you through the lead rope, spin and then try to double barrel you. Now he will come to be caught and stand calmly on the end of the leadrope. 

Next step is leading - I'm insisting on good behaviour but I don't want to set him up to fail. I'm setting him up to allow praise for good behaviour as he is so distrustful that I don't want to have to discipline him when a series of small steps with get him to the same point with no aggro.

I am however getting to the point where I can swing a leadrope at him for bad behaviour without him trying to charge me, which is what he did before.

I can tie a net up and tell him to go away until I am done - before he would charge at the food and double barrel. I can collect buckets up without him trying to charge me. The list goes on - I don't know what they did to him in the past but there are a whole list of behaviours that have needed addressing for safe handling before I started doing any ground work with him.


----------



## ester (26 August 2015)

OP he is likely ok physically? Given the stabling since weaning I wonder if he suffers from ulcers etc?
He just reminded me a little of satan the pony https://www.facebook.com/PonyknownasSatan?fref=ts

Who despite being with this trainer for a year (having been running wild before hand) still wasn't really relaxing and going with it, I think she has had quite good results recently with him having some ulcer treatment, having essentially been chronically stressed and a patient bodyworker (I know your lad wouldn't be able to do that right now). It does sound like he is improving and might just take time though.


----------



## elliefiz (26 August 2015)

fburton said:



			Well, this is certainly the NH view, and perhaps the traditional one too? It isn't the only valid or effective one. You could also obtain the behaviours you want and call this 'respect' (if you must) rather than trying to obtain 'respect' first and expecting good behaviour to flow from that. Getting good behaviour needn't _necessarily_ involve 'tough love' (which sounds like a euphemism for...?), whereas who you suggest seems to imply that 'tough love' is mandatory to get respect, which itself is needed to obtain good behaviour. That's what it sounds like anyway - please correct me if I have misread you!
		
Click to expand...

Yes personally I think respect is the first step in achieving a well behaved, trustworthy horse. The trustworthy part is more important to me than the good behaviour- no horse is 100% dependable but I want to know I can trust a horse to not loose it's mind if something happens. Flooding a horse, beating a horse or spoiling a horse will never achieve that. The tough love part depends on your definition of tough love. The best horsemanship trainers usually teach a horse with very little emotion involved. They will correct a horse as softly or as hard as necessary. It's not hugging fluffy bunnies and feeding sugar lumps, but I have never personally witnessed any cruelty or nastiness towards horses and I have spent time with a lot of horsemanship trainers over the past number of years. It wouldn't always sit well with the generation of (usually female) riders who think their horses "love" them and incorrectly humanise their horses and who have no comprehension of natural equine behaviour. So if you think I was advocating beating the crap out of a horse in the name of "tough love" or any type of cruelty then yes, you have misread me.


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)

That is actually a good point Ester thank you. He's out 24/7 so gut should never be empty but a course of guastroguard could be a good starting point if he doesn't start to settle.

Thinking about it he licks an awful lot - fully brings his tongue out of the side of his mouth and leaves thick white saliva. He does this even at rest in the field occasionally but especially if he is stressed.


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)

elliefiz said:



			. Flooding a horse, beating a horse or spoiling a horse will never achieve that. The tough leove part depends on your definition of tough love. The best horsemanship trainers usually teach a horse with very little emotion involved. They will correct a horse as softly or as hard as necessary.
		
Click to expand...

That's no different though than I am doing already.


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (26 August 2015)

OK, we see a lot of people coming on here asking for advice and then saying "well my method works"


----------



## siennamum (26 August 2015)

My son broke in a horse a couple of years ago who you could not lay a hand on, he was very nervous about people, and hyper reactive - and 16.3.

Horse wasn't aggressive, but I have had aggressive boys before, and like my sons horse the answer is generally the same. Lots of handling and working with the horse. Reactive horses IMO need you to be a bit more obvious, to desensitise them. The aggression should decrease also the more he learns you are to be respected. 

We woudl expect to work a couple of times a day if neccessary, and to make rapid progress, The problem is the longer he behaves as if people are at best to be tolerated, the more it will be his norm. I've found aggressive or opinionated horses don't mind fair correction. I wouldn't worry about yours making mistakes and being made to repeat till he gets it right. I have to say though that I owuld be having him cut immediattely to nip this in the bud.


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			OK, we see a lot of people coming on here asking for advice and then saying "well my method works"
		
Click to expand...

I've not come on strictly for advice though (advice is considered too though but I'm not going to agree with all of it - no one would). I was having a down day and signed up to see if other people on here had had similar experiences and got through it. I was a little surprised to have NH shouted so much - I was expecting Horse and Hound to be a little less fluffy bunny. There are quite a lot of NH principles that I disagree with from an animal behaviour viewpoint. There are the occasional good tools available but over the years I have gone from curious to skeptical (experiences haven't been great of it).

I'm not for or against any particular method, I just have found a trainer who takes a bit of everything and trains horse and rider in a way which is firm but fair, without gimmicks. I don't feel the need to involve her in fieldwork as I am capable of the day to day handling and am making progress. She will of course be involved in the actual 'schooling' work, as she has been with my others.

I've heard a couple of success stories which has given me hope that I will get through to him - I was half expecting people to say PTS he's dangerous 

I'm sure we will get there - I might use this post as a diary of sorts. It may need a snappier title though


----------



## fburton (26 August 2015)

elliefiz said:



			Yes personally I think respect is the first step in achieving a well behaved, trustworthy horse. The trustworthy part is more important to me than the good behaviour- no horse is 100% dependable but I want to know I can trust a horse to not loose it's mind if something happens. Flooding a horse, beating a horse or spoiling a horse will never achieve that. The tough love part depends on your definition of tough love. The best horsemanship trainers usually teach a horse with very little emotion involved. They will correct a horse as softly or as hard as necessary. It's not hugging fluffy bunnies and feeding sugar lumps, but I have never personally witnessed any cruelty or nastiness towards horses and I have spent time with a lot of horsemanship trainers over the past number of years. It wouldn't always sit well with the generation of (usually female) riders who think their horses "love" them and incorrectly humanise their horses and who have no comprehension of natural equine behaviour. So if you think I was advocating beating the crap out of a horse in the name of "tough love" or any type of cruelty then yes, you have misread me.
		
Click to expand...

Actually I reckon we're not so far apart in terms of practice. We just have a different interpretation of 'respect'. I didn't think you were advocating beating the crap of them, and share your dislike of humanising horses. However, I have seen some dreadful things done to horses in the name of teaching or instilling respect - usually couched in terms of 'establishing dominance' or some such - which is why talk of 'respect' tends to ring alarm bells with me.

EQUIDAE, it sounds to me like you are on the right track, recognizing that it's going to take time, patience and sensitivity. I would encourage getting someone experienced with fearful youngsters and entires to help you _if_ you knew for certain they were competent. Something to consider at least, if you feel you're not getting anywhere or the horse's behaviour is consistently worsening (normal progress usually involves _some_ backward steps).


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)

siennamum said:



			We woudl expect to work a couple of times a day if neccessary, and to make rapid progress, The problem is the longer he behaves as if people are at best to be tolerated, the more it will be his norm. I've found aggressive or opinionated horses don't mind fair correction. I wouldn't worry about yours making mistakes and being made to repeat till he gets it right. I have to say though that I owuld be having him cut immediattely to nip this in the bud.
		
Click to expand...

I am working with him morning and evening, plus every time I drive by the field I will call him over so he's probably getting some integration 4 times. The others think this is wonderful!

He does seem to be responding now to being disciplined. At first if you disciplined him he would attack, now he backs off.

Must go out and do something with him - I'm spending far too much time on the Internet!

I was 'warned' about this site that people can tear strips off you and no one lasts long - it doesn't seem as bad as I had initially worried  thanks all for taking your time to respond.


----------



## elliefiz (26 August 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			That's no different though than I am doing already.
		
Click to expand...

I'm unsure why you bothered posting looking for advice? You have an aggressive horse who exhibits dangerous behaviour. If you feel you have it under control why ask?  If what you are doing is working so well, I'm Unsure why you bothered posting? Why not just get on with it like the rest of us do?  And I find it highly insulting you are so dismissive of horsemanship, I am far from some sort of tree hugger, nor I believe, are others who have suggested Horsemanship as a tool. Anyone who has posted is offering advice based on experience, there is no need to be rude about it.


----------



## elliefiz (26 August 2015)

fburton said:



			Actually I reckon we're not so far apart in terms of practice. We just have a different interpretation of 'respect'. I didn't think you were advocating beating the crap of them, and share your dislike of humanising horses. However, I have seen some dreadful things done to horses in the name of teaching or instilling respect - usually couched in terms of 'establishing dominance' or some such - which is why talk of 'respect' tends to ring alarm bells with me.
.
		
Click to expand...

I actually did think I should say in my post that for me respect and dominance/ submission are different things. I definitely think we are on similar tracks, I would use the word respect for my horses in lieu of anything more appropriate. in the wild I would suppose the herd respect the herd leader without living in fear of him? Or is there a better word for it?


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)

elliefiz said:



			I'm unsure why you bothered posting looking for advice? You have an aggressive horse who exhibits dangerous behaviour. If you feel you have it under control why ask?  If what you are doing is working so well, I'm Unsure why you bothered posting? Why not just get on with it like the rest of us do?  And I find it highly insulting you are so dismissive of horsemanship, I am far from some sort of tree hugger, nor I believe, are others who have suggested Horsemanship as a tool. Anyone who has posted is offering advice based on experience, there is no need to be rude about it.
		
Click to expand...

Not following your advice doesn't make me rude - not everyone in life has to agree with you.

Some people have been very helpful and I appreciate that very much. Me disagreeing with someone doesn't make me a bad person, it a difference opinion and no more.

I came on here looking for support from people who had been in the same situation with an aggressive horse - to be inspired by others experience so I didn't become disheartened. I was aware of the reputation of this forum for eating people alive - hence the please be gentle with me post.

Again to all of those who offered your support and experience thank you so much. I was having a dip in my confidence and it's great to see others have come out of the other side. To the others - cheers for making me feel like ****  why do that? It doesn't achieve anything other than satifying your own ego.

I'm not a complete novice who has gone out and bought a youngster and is out of their depth, I have had youngsters and entires for several years now that have turned out to be polite and useful horses. Just never one who has disliked people so much - though I can fully see why


----------



## Barnacle (26 August 2015)

Not really adding to this conversation as I've already said what I'd do but I wanted to point out that licking/chewing is indeed a stress indicator. It occurs immediately after the horse has been stressed, once they "release" and start to move their tongue and swallow again. That's why NH people are always going on about it after they've chased a horse around a roundpen... (For the record, when I said free schooling, I did not mean in a roundpen! I would use a full size school.) The licking/chewing is kind of like the "remembering to breath" we talk about after we've been startled. If you give a horse a polo and then approach them with a plastic flapping bag, you can very easily replicate this behaviour. They stop chewing the polo and only start again when the frightening stimulus is removed. 

elliefiz, There is no clear herd leader in "wild" horses. Leadership is somewhat fluid. Leadership and dominance are two separate things - people tend to confuse the two. Sometimes they coincide but often they don't. (This is my main area of research so I feel the need to point that out but I realise you were only making a passing comment.)

edit: Posted while you were but wanted to add I'm sorry you felt attacked. I think everyone was only trying to help and you shouldn't take it personally. Horse people are passionate people I suppose!


----------



## MotherOfChickens (26 August 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			I was a little surprised to have NH shouted so much - I was expecting Horse and Hound to be a little less fluffy bunny. There are quite a lot of NH principles that I disagree with from an animal behaviour viewpoint. There are the occasional good tools available but over the years I have gone from curious to skeptical (experiences haven't been great of it).
		
Click to expand...

I know where you are coming from, there are other ways. I've not come across an aggressive youngster like this so I can't help. I did get a completely unhandled weanling off the moors though and have had to do all his training myself, on my own and didn't want to do it by flooding/force or NH lol! I am actually quite traditional but when you're on your own you have to think outside the box sometimes. 

It's constantly amazing to me, what horses offer you when they are completely at liberty and have the option to get away (not suggesting this with your boy, not yet anyway!). So actually, horses doing things on their own terms can work and can actually be very powerful. I couldnt give a flying fig what anyone else thinks of that tbh.


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)

U H



Barnacle said:



			Not really adding to this conversation as I've already said what I'd do but I wanted to point out that licking/chewing is indeed a stress indicator. It occurs immediately after the horse has been stressed, once they "release" and start to move their tongue and swallow again. That's why NH people are always going on about it after they've chased a horse around a roundpen... (For the record, when I said free schooling, I did not mean in a roundpen! I would use a full size school.) The licking/chewing is kind of like the "remembering to breath" we talk about after we've been startled. If you give a horse a polo and then approach them with a plastic flapping bag, you can very easily replicate this behaviour. They stop chewing the polo and only start again when the frightening stimulus is removed. 

elliefiz, There is no clear herd leader in "wild" horses. Leadership is somewhat fluid. Leadership and dominance are two separate things - people tend to confuse the two. Sometimes they coincide but often they don't. (This is my main area of research so I feel the need to point that out but I realise you were only making a passing comment.)
		
Click to expand...

I agree about the stress - he seems to be stressed about everything sadly. I have considered totally leaving him to be for a few weeks but I really need to nip the aggression in the bud first and at least get him leading calmly (so if he needs a vet we aren't stuck). I think once he's come round a bit more u will give him time off with nothing to stress him, but until then I'm going to have to persevere a couple of times a day.

I follow you with the leadership and dominance thing - I want him to want to behave, not feel he has no other option. I am by no means fluffy with him but for a stressy distrustful horse I think he does need to see that one person is going to be consistent with him.



MotherOfChickens said:



			I know where you are coming from, there are other ways. I've not come across an aggressive youngster like this so I can't help. I did get a completely unhandled weanling off the moors though and have had to do all his training myself, on my own and didn't want to do it by flooding/force or NH lol! I am actually quite traditional but when you're on your own you have to think outside the box sometimes. 

It's constantly amazing to me, what horses offer you when they are completely at liberty and have the option to get away (not suggesting this with your boy, not yet anyway!). So actually, horses doing things on their own terms can work and can actually be very powerful. I couldnt give a flying fig what anyone else thinks of that tbh.
		
Click to expand...

My previous youngsters have been straight off the hill and it is much easier to deal with. The ones who have had too much inappropriate handling when young seem to be the ones with issues.

The mare I just sold was a nightmare when she came. She had been in a home from foal where she had been a pet and they just let her do her own thing. They couldn't lead her so they just opened gates and stable doors and herded her. She was bolshy and rude and thought nothing of throwing herself on the floor if she didn't want to.go somewhere. With firm handling she became a well mannered horse - sadly her new home didn't keep up with the firm handling and she regressed and was passed on. I would have took her back but they sold her at a loss instead (bizarre) and I have lost touch


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)

E



Barnacle said:



			edit: Posted while you were but wanted to add I'm sorry you felt attacked. I think everyone was only trying to help and you shouldn't take it personally. Horse people are passionate people I suppose!
		
Click to expand...

 I know what you mean - we all love horses but let egos get in the way. I suppose I am equally as guilty of that... I guess I am sensitive at the minute regards him - no one likes being told 'get a trainer in you're doing it wrong', especially when they are making progress. Some of the advice I have disregarded I have done so only due to his mental state at the minute - when he is behaving more like a normal horse I may revisit some of the advice, I just don't feel it is appropriate yet. Some of the advice has been very relevant for his level of handling and I have taken it on board 

I suppose it is like the shadow of a cylinder - from one side you get a circle, from the other a square. Neither view is incorrect, just different.


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)

A quick snap of my yearling, Kenny. He's only 15 months but he knows the school is for concentrating. I do very little with him in the school, maybe once every couple of weeks and it is always loose so he is not put under lots of pressure. He knows the voice commands for upwards and downwards transitions and halt but it is very much taught as play for him yet, sometimes with my other 2yo in with him to show him the ropes. He's going to be a big lad - expected to make 17h-17h2 and standing at 15h currently. When he came he would try and use his size against you but now he is as polite as my others 

This was not long after he arrived in April and he had been living in a cow shed over winter - he was caked in muck


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 August 2015)

And little cobby Oreo - another with a rough start. A very late foal and about 2 and a half here. Playing at jumping - teeny jumps and only 2 or 3 times.







He's now worn a saddle and bridle and has started long lining ready for being backed next spring.


----------



## ester (26 August 2015)

Were you here before OP? Oreo/the yard look familiar!


----------



## fburton (29 August 2015)

Barnacle said:



			Not really adding to this conversation as I've already said what I'd do but I wanted to point out that licking/chewing is indeed a stress indicator. It occurs immediately after the horse has been stressed, once they "release" and start to move their tongue and swallow again.
		
Click to expand...

L&C is definitely a stress indicator and appears exactly as you describe. I have long thought it _could_ be due to saliva flowing again on the rebound from an adrenaline rush; it was something I suggested back in 1996 or 97, and a subsequent post about this on an equine behaviour list was misquoted as fact by Cavallo magazine. I wonder if anyone has done the experiments to prove it...




			That's why NH people are always going on about it after they've chased a horse around a roundpen... (For the record, when I said free schooling, I did not mean in a roundpen! I would use a full size school.) The licking/chewing is kind of like the "remembering to breath" we talk about after we've been startled. If you give a horse a polo and then approach them with a plastic flapping bag, you can very easily replicate this behaviour. They stop chewing the polo and only start again when the frightening stimulus is removed.
		
Click to expand...

Nice circumstantial evidence!




			elliefiz, There is no clear herd leader in "wild" horses. Leadership is somewhat fluid. Leadership and dominance are two separate things - people tend to confuse the two. Sometimes they coincide but often they don't. (This is my main area of research so I feel the need to point that out but I realise you were only making a passing comment.)
		
Click to expand...

This is something that has fascinated and exercised me for many years now. The problem, I have found, is that in any discussions about dominance and (especially) leadership, assumptions arising from our cultural background as humans tend to influence the words we use. May I ask what you are researching?


----------



## EQUIDAE (1 September 2015)

A little update - we've made a little progress  he's taken quite well to being led. Initially I was just leading him around in the field but then moved to leading to and from the stable. Today he calmly led past tractors and a horsebox parked on my drive to a different field. Hes seeming to take comfort and confidence from me in new situations - seems to be good for him. 

He's still handy with his back end but it is becoming a bit less of an issue now.


----------



## catroo (1 September 2015)

ester said:



			Were you here before OP? Oreo/the yard look familiar!
		
Click to expand...

Poster Fides had a meat colt called Oreo, looks very similar. Not sure if they still have him or if he was sold on


----------



## Dry Rot (5 September 2015)

There is nothing much new in training animals except the amount that has been forgotten and lost. I am a great devotee of old books and even translated one written in the 16th century into modern English and got it publish again, it had so much wisdom in it! (Only about falconry, though, but I did recover the costs within three months!).

The OP may find something of use on this site. It helped me.

http://www.rarey.com/sites/jsrarey/jsrbook3.html


----------



## EQUIDAE (6 September 2015)

Dry Rot said:



			There is nothing much new in training animals except the amount that has been forgotten and lost. I am a great devotee of old books and even translated one written in the 16th century into modern English and got it publish again, it had so much wisdom in it! (Only about falconry, though, but I did recover the costs within three months!).

The OP may find something of use on this site. It helped me.

http://www.rarey.com/sites/jsrarey/jsrbook3.html

Click to expand...

Sorry but that is just awful! That is certainly NOT how I want to handle him - it is handling like that that has made him what he is today. I'm surprised people still follow this barbaric methodology


----------



## Dry Rot (6 September 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Sorry but that is just awful! That is certainly NOT how I want to handle him - it is handling like that that has made him what he is today. I'm surprised people still follow this barbaric methodology 

Click to expand...

I have possibly posted the wrong link. I suggest you read a bit more rather than jumping to the (incorrect) conclusion that I would ever suggest harsh methods. Regular uses of this forum know that I would never do that. The quickest way to learn is to start with an open mind.

Here is a cut-and-past from the introduction to the book. 

INTRODUCTION
SINCE issuing our former editions of Mr. Rarey&#8217;s book on Horse Taming, some new facts have been published by him, which are embodied in these pages, and make the work still more complete. A careful perusal of the instructions here given, will show how any cool and determined person may break or tame a colt in a manner that will make him docile, stand at the word of command, and obey the voice with as much certainty as ordinarily trained horses will answer the reins. In contrast with the usual mode of training by harsh words, a sharp whip, and cruel worrying, Mr. Rarey demonstrates how easily, quietly and safely horses may be tamed by kindness. For training colts, breaking horses into harness, curing vicious horses, such as kickers and baulkers, this system is invaluable. Indeed, it will give to every courageous, calm-tempered horseman not only the power to conquer any horse, however refractory, but to make the animal affectionate in disposition and ready at all times to he mounted and put in harness, without trouble or waste of time. One great value of Mr. Rarey's system consists in the fact that it may be taught to, and successfully practiced by, persons of little strength - even by boys of fourteen - except where the horse is extremely vicious and powerful. It requires patience, and the habit of dealing with horses, as well as coolness; but the real work is rather a matter of skill than muscle. Not only have boys of eighty pounds weight become successful horse-tamers in England, but even English ladies have perfectly subdued and reduced to calmness fiery blood-horses. Therefore, in dealing with Mr. Rarey's plan we are not wasting our time about a trick for conquering incurably savage horses, but are elucidating the principles of a universally applicable system for taming and training horses for man's use, with a perfection of docility rarely found except in aged pet horses, and with a rapidity heretofore quite unknown.


----------



## JanetGeorge (6 September 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			First post so please be gentle with me...




And that is what has me worried - he isn't afraid, he just doesn't trust and if threatened will actually attack. If I hadn't seen it for myself I wouldn't have believed it.
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't have believed it recently because it is only quite recently that I have had first hand experience with a nervous/aggressive 3 year old gelding.  I am not proud of the fact that I ALLOWED him to get to three - from about a yearling - with knowing there was a behaviour problem.  We have now had him stabled for about 2 months - working seriously on whether the problem can be fixed relatively safely and successfully.  Ony 6 weeks ago he delivered the 2nd worst kick I have had in a lifetime with horses, for absolutely NO reaso I can identify.  The only funny thing abut THAT was that 10 days later - when I was in hospital recovering from removal of a huge meningioma that had been screewing up my life for at LEAST 2 years by slwly shutting down functioing brain, one thing that was VERY noticeable was Registrars coming to check on me (there were 6 Registrars in total) and seeing my black and blue legs and clearly wondering how/why a meningioma could have SUCH a effect on legs.  When I explained the bruising was the result of a kick by a horse they were astounded - and I'd bet they if they have any chidren in the future, those kids won't be allowed within 10 miles of a horse!

My current position with my youngster is that carefully selected members of staff are the ONLY ones to handle him at all, and they have their own set of rules - things like they are NOT to attempt to handle him unless another member of staff is in close proximity.  I hope and pray this SHOULD ensure safe progress.  I believe that if there is NO improvement in the next 3 months I should shoot him, because I sure as hell will not sell him.

He has 5 half-brothers and sisters (by a different stallion to him) who have all had perfect temperments and one younger full brother who is a yearling who hasn't shown a sign of being like him.  The stallion he's by has a fabulously good temperament - and I'm in a good position to judging that.  There is absolutely NO evidence that I had a member of staff - at the right time - who would even have given any horse a good whacking when it might probably deserve it - let alone the gratuitous and evil beating that he would have needed to give him such evil memories of one human that he would need to get even with anyone.  And virtually NO chance that someone knew about the beating and hadn't told me. 

It is probably the biggest mystery in a lifetime with horses and 12 years of serious breeding!  I haven't read every response to your orginal post.  The easiest and best things I can say to ou though are:

1.  Make sure that ANYONE who doesn't know him well and have the experience to allow them to deal with any situation reasonably ensure that they don't go a mile from him!!  You WILL feel incredibly guilty for a LONG time if he hurts someone, or worse.

2.  Be incredibly careful yourself and don't attempt to do ANY work with him (or even go near him) without someone handy enough to see anything that happens and call an ambulance fast!

3.  Set yourself a sensible time scale of how much time you are prepared to give him before you make the worst (but probably the most sensible) decision - which would be to shoot him (obviously you'd need to get your local hunt in to do THAT!)

I'll be keeping an eye out for your posts because the problem you and I have is pretty rare!!


----------



## JanetGeorge (6 September 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			A little update - we've made a little progress 

Click to expand...

Have just read back a bit and found this post - and I'm pleased for you BUT - and I have to emphasise it. You need at LEAST 3 months of progress before you can begin to relax your safety rules.  Unpredictability is your most likely problem.


----------



## brighteyes (6 September 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			I'm afraid we are a long way off rubbing withers and long lining - I can barely touch him yet he is that bad  I had a bit of a breakthrough the other day and managed to rub his neck at the base rather than the top and patted him gently 'good boy' and he absolutely pooed his pants. He's not ready to meet other people yet - I'm keeping it one on one until he accepts contact more.

I wouldn't lunge a 2yo in trot, never mind sending them round and round in canter in a round pen - this one is out I'm afraid. I'm not a fan of the practice anyway as I believe it creates a bond through flooding and learned helplessness, the same way as sacking out does. I'd rather desensitise them gradually so they think it is on their terms and no big deal.

He's learned the word 'back' so I can control his position near me to a degree now - he's starting to respect my personal space a little.

He's also started allowing me to hold onto his headcollar for more than a few seconds now, so I'm going to start leading him around the paddock to get him used to following me rather than backing off.

I know I'll get there with him - I just had a bit of a wobble yesterday.

The idea of sending him into the vets to be done sooner rather than later is a good one, but until he stops trying to attack people I wouldn't out anyone else in danger, he'll be done but at home. Plus I have 3 to have done at the same time  the vets are happy to geld him at home.
		
Click to expand...

I like all of this. And PLEASE post that video!


----------



## dollyanna (6 September 2015)

Dry Rot said:



			I have possibly posted the wrong link. I suggest you read a bit more rather than jumping to the (incorrect) conclusion that I would ever suggest harsh methods. Regular uses of this forum know that I would never do that. The quickest way to learn is to start with an open mind.

Here is a cut-and-past from the introduction to the book.
		
Click to expand...

Your link is the the same age as has that introduction, which does indeed sound very enticing - until you read the rest of the page where it advocates tying a leg up until the horse stops fighting, and then tying the other leg up to bring them to their knees and then the ground, where you can sit on them or touch them all over without a fight.
Pretty sure that wouldn't be what you would advocate after reading many of your other posts - I do hope I'm not wrong.


----------



## Leo Walker (6 September 2015)

catroo said:



			Poster Fides had a meat colt called Oreo, looks very similar. Not sure if they still have him or if he was sold on
		
Click to expand...

EQUIDAE a couple of people have posted along these lines, not sure if you just missed the posts?


----------



## Dry Rot (6 September 2015)

dollyanna said:



			Your link is the the same age as has that introduction, which does indeed sound very enticing - until you read the rest of the page where it advocates tying a leg up until the horse stops fighting, and then tying the other leg up to bring them to their knees and then the ground, where you can sit on them or touch them all over without a fight.
Pretty sure that wouldn't be what you would advocate after reading many of your other posts - I do hope I'm not wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Just popped in for lunch and a break from fencing. That link leads to some interesting stuff which I don't have time to find for the OP now. But I think it was Sullivan who was the original horse wisperer. Somewhere either he or Rarey explain how to quiet an aggressive horse by gently stroking it on the face and gradually moving to stroking to the rest of it's body. He thought nothing of taking 10+ hours to get the desired result. Sullivan came to England where they had advertised for the most vicious horse for him to demonstrate his techniques on. Excuse me if I've got the details wrong but I think they did find a notorious stallion that was kept permanently muzzled as he had already killed at least one stable boy. Sullivan applied his techniques and the stallion was rendered quiet.

Fear is often self rewarding. The animal panics and moves away so the increasing distance diminishes the fear -- self reward.  Or it threatens to attack and the "attacker" is frightened and moves away with the same result. By immobilising the subect, the reward part is eliminated. (Lifting a front leg without tieing it is a well known technique for handling a kicking horse and something I was taught in vet college 50 years ago!). The fear can then be worked on by using 'approach and retreat'. It does work and it is something I have used with success on more than one species. No cruelty is involved unless the trainer is an idiot who doesn't understand the priciples involved -- and there are plenty of those around!

There is a heap of knowledge in those pages for those who are reasonably intelligent and can read with an unbiased mind and without emotion. If they can understand the underlying psychology, the information can be really really useful. There is no need to follow these old methods blindly but they can often be adapted. What worries me is when people start talking in terms of 'love', 'faith', and 'trust'. I deal in adapting behaviours to suit my purpose but it did take 30 years for the penny to drop! I could cite a few examples if my fencing was not more urgent but I think I'll leave the OP to get on with it.


----------



## EQUIDAE (7 September 2015)

The underlying psychology is learned helplessness and it is not a method I wish to employ - I wasn't trust, not a robot


----------



## Dry Rot (7 September 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			The underlying psychology is learned helplessness and it is not a method I wish to employ - I wasn't trust, not a robot 

Click to expand...

You just don't get it, do you?


----------



## spottybotty (7 September 2015)

I have to say this youngster looks very much like Oreo
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...he-true-cost-of-rescuing-them-(a-diary)/page2


----------



## SpottyMare (7 September 2015)

Dry Rot said:



			There is a heap of knowledge in those pages for those who are reasonably intelligent and can read with an unbiased mind and without emotion. If they can understand the underlying psychology, the information can be really really useful. There is no need to follow these old methods blindly but they can often be adapted.
		
Click to expand...

I think this is the key part of what Dry Rot is saying.  You can pick up a lot of useful information by understanding the principle of why something works, even if you wouldn't use the described method.  However, reading between the lines involves a bit more effort and use of critical faculties.  Probably why certain trainers who promote 'horsemanship by numbers' are so popular 

OP - apologies for being blunt, but in your posts you don't come across as being as experienced as you seem to think you are, so I would be inclined to contact someone who has had experience of dealing with aggressive horses to help you in situ.


----------



## Dry Rot (7 September 2015)

I am surprised to be agreeing with Bonkers2's post, number 15, above which seems to be utterly sensible to me. The trick is to do that without being kicked into oblivion at the same time. So lift a front foot?

As for the OP not liking an animal to be restrained during training, I think she does mention using a head collar and, I suppose, hopes eventually to graduate to using a bridle and bit. Are these not methods of restraint?

But I wouldn't like Bonker2 to think I am backing down on my recommendation that buttercups should be sprayed when in flower (another thread that got a bit heated, for those who didn't see it!), that would be going tooo far!


----------



## EQUIDAE (7 September 2015)

Dry Rot said:



			You just don't get it, do you?
		
Click to expand...

I do get it, it's just not a methodology I agree with.

We've had a lovely weekend and he is really progressing. He's started cantering up the field to meet me at the gate and is now leading quietly. Saturday and Sunday I brought him in and introduced him to being groomed. He appears fine with having his body groomed but doesn't seem quite ready for legs, but we will work on that. After the little grooms I took him for short walks down the lane and, although he was very alert, he wasn't acting like a kite.

We have had a week where he hasn't tried to kick once - I still don't trust him and am being very aware of what he is doing at all times, but we seem to be getting there


----------



## EQUIDAE (12 September 2015)

Woody is turning into such a lovely boy! He's now behaving like a 'normal' horse and is showing no aggression. He is being so lovely that l have even allowed my other half back in the field with him. 

He is now first across the field







And here we have first contact - he has finally allowed the man to touch him! The daft grey is our yearling - he was a total scaredy cat when we got him but a total love bunny now!

[video]http://vid77.photobucket.com/albums/j57/SlipInWoody/IMG_0119_zpsswz5dyob.mp4[/video]


----------



## Barnacle (13 September 2015)

fburton said:



			L&C is definitely a stress indicator and appears exactly as you describe. I have long thought it _could_ be due to saliva flowing again on the rebound from an adrenaline rush; it was something I suggested back in 1996 or 97, and a subsequent post about this on an equine behaviour list was misquoted as fact by Cavallo magazine. I wonder if anyone has done the experiments to prove it...


Nice circumstantial evidence!


This is something that has fascinated and exercised me for many years now. The problem, I have found, is that in any discussions about dominance and (especially) leadership, assumptions arising from our cultural background as humans tend to influence the words we use. May I ask what you are researching?
		
Click to expand...

The licking and chewing thing is seen in other animals too (like dogs, where it's pretty widely reported).

I research animal behaviour but specifically personality (NOT as in taking an online quiz to decide which of 5 outdated personality types you fit into!) and leadership in social animals, ranging from fish to humans. The term "leadership" is defined by initiation of movement and the fact of "followership". There is really no sense in which the definition could be affected by cultural context and would be clearly distinct from 'dominance'. But outside scientific circles there is certainly a tendency to equate dominance and leadership and perhaps you are right that this is because people think of our leaders (politicians or whatever else) as powerful, dominant etc etc. 

Unfortunately people use "leadership" in a very loose way all the time and it ends up being misinterpreted - that goes for the term in human contexts too. I have no interest in that almost mystical sense of the word. It drives me a bit mad that the NH crowd have taken words like 'leadership' and 'personality' (Parelli with his "horsenality", "left brain/right brain" nonsense!) and used them haphazardly when there actually are serious fields in biology concerned with these concepts. To be fair, I don't think my field should use "personality" at all as it is far too confusing to communicate effectively to lay audiences - but a bit late for that now!


Also EQUIDAE, so good to see there's been progress! It sounds like you're on the right track now!


----------



## EQUIDAE (14 September 2015)

l'm now going to slowly introduce strangers to him - yesterday my friend met him for the first time and he approached her cautiously. Within a few minutes he was leaning forwards as he wanted a scratch and then he took that magic step so they were both stood within each other's space. He seems to like my friend and when she turned her back he whuffled her hair.

l am so, so pleased with him. For a horse that would swing his bum at you and charge just a few weeks ago, he is doing admirably :}


----------



## EQUIDAE (10 October 2015)

He's coming along just lovely  He's still skittish of sudden moves, and you cannot pat him, only stroke but he's turning into a lovely, lovely person.

I've finally got a bum shot of his markings







I've started working with him in the arena now - just loose to get him moving and responding to my voice. He's now understanding the cues to move up and down a pace. One thing I am glad of is that he doesn't have any fear of whips so he responds nicely to a lunge whip.

I had the channel set out from loose jumping my Sec D and the result was this. I didn't ask him to go over the jump, just sent him off round the arena and then took off the pressure. He could have stopped or backed off in the channel but instead popped the jump nicely and calmly.


----------



## EQUIDAE (10 October 2015)

Let's try again with that pic!


----------



## EQUIDAE (10 October 2015)

Can anyone see the pic? All I'm getting is a ? in a box


----------



## EQUIDAE (10 October 2015)




----------



## EQUIDAE (10 October 2015)

A few action shots


----------



## EQUIDAE (10 October 2015)

I was a bit worried that with him being trotter x, that he wouldn't be able to canter - no probs!


----------



## EQUIDAE (10 October 2015)

He fixed his eye on the jump and gave big trot


----------



## AdorableAlice (10 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Woody is turning into such a lovely boy! He's now behaving like a 'normal' horse and is showing no aggression. He is being so lovely that l have even allowed my other half back in the field with him. 

He is now first across the field







And here we have first contact - he has finally allowed the man to touch him! The daft grey is our yearling - he was a total scaredy cat when we got him but a total love bunny now!

[video]http://vid77.photobucket.com/albums/j57/SlipInWoody/IMG_0119_zpsswz5dyob.mp4[/video]
		
Click to expand...

Congratulations with the progress.  No help to offer as Ted was certainly not aggressive, even at his most frightened he would not hurt me with anger or aggression.

Why do you keep these coloured horses entire ?


----------



## EQUIDAE (10 October 2015)

I only popped him over 3 times and that will be it for a good while now.













I'm really starting to like this little horse 

Currently doubling as a lawnmower


----------



## AdorableAlice (10 October 2015)

Why would you want to chase a horse that cannot be handled all over, tied up and does not have the basic ground work in, around an arena and over jumps ?

I am finding this thread most odd.


----------



## EQUIDAE (10 October 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			Congratulations with the progress.  No help to offer as Ted was certainly not aggressive, even at his most frightened he would not hurt me with anger or aggression.

Why do you keep these coloured horses entire ?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not 'keeping' them entire. They were bought as colts and are due to be gelded in the next couple of weeks - just need the vets to find time to come out and do two at the same time. Plus an exam of little un to see if his semi-undescended testicle could be persuaded to pop out for gelding. Some days he has two, other days just one.


----------



## Leo Walker (10 October 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			Why would you want to chase a horse that cannot be handled all over, tied up and does not have the basic ground work in, around an arena and over jumps ?

I am finding this thread most odd.
		
Click to expand...

I found it most odd from the start almost :lol:


----------



## EQUIDAE (10 October 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			Why would you want to chase a horse that cannot be handled all over, tied up and does not have the basic ground work in, around an arena and over jumps ?

I am finding this thread most odd.
		
Click to expand...

He is being handled now, and has tied up from the first week I had him - he just went a bit feral when turned out for the first time. (ETA - feral putting it mildly)

The loose work in the arena is to get him used to my voice cues ready for when I start long lining him over the next few months. I always teach voice aids loose so there is nothing to restrict them. It's also easier to teach calming downwards aids.


----------



## EQUIDAE (10 October 2015)

He had his buddies in the arena with him too so wasn't worried.


----------



## EQUIDAE (10 October 2015)

...


----------



## AdorableAlice (10 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			He is being handled now, and has tied up from the first week I had him - he just went a bit feral when turned out for the first time. (ETA - feral putting it mildly)

The loose work in the arena is to get him used to my voice cues ready for when I start long lining him over the next few months. I always teach voice aids loose so there is nothing to restrict them. It's also easier to teach calming downwards aids.
		
Click to expand...

Oh, I see.  I guess there are many ways of handling youngstock, nervous, feral, aggressive or whatever.  I hope he goes on and gives you much to be proud of.


----------



## EQUIDAE (10 October 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			Oh, I see.  I guess there are many ways of handling youngstock, nervous, feral, aggressive or whatever.  I hope he goes on and gives you much to be proud of.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks. With daily handling he seems to be learning that people aren't terrible. He has a way to come of course - you still can't pat him as this terrifies him but he is starting to be a pleasure to be around. I actually quite like him now


----------



## AdorableAlice (10 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Thanks. With daily handling he seems to be learning that people aren't terrible. He has a way to come of course - you still can't pat him as this terrifies him but he is starting to be a pleasure to be around. I actually quite like him now 

Click to expand...

Don't pat him.  Horses do not pat one another.  Put your hand and leave it on, when he accepts the pressure on his skin, remove the hand and the pressure. Do this all over him and you will have a building block to work with.  I was lucky because I found someone who was suitable to break my youngster.  The horse could not have gone to a normal breaking yard and I could not do him myself, although I had done a lot of groundwork with him and I have another 4 year old that I did do myself

Even now, at 4 months broken and having won a baby dressage test, I have to be very measured and careful in how he is handled.


----------



## EQUIDAE (11 October 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			Even now, at 4 months broken and having won a baby dressage test, I have to be very measured and careful in how he is handled
		
Click to expand...

Well done with that - sounds like yours has really come round.


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (12 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			I'm not 'keeping' them entire. They were bought as colts and are due to be gelded in the next couple of weeks - just need the vets to find time to come out and do two at the same time. Plus an exam of little un to see if his semi-undescended testicle could be persuaded to pop out for gelding. Some days he has two, other days just one.
		
Click to expand...

if you can EVER on ANY day see 2, then they are both this side of the inguinal ring and he is ready to be castrated! there is no such thing as a semi undescended testical.....its either down or its not and no it cannot be persuaded to pop out if its truly retained!


----------



## EQUIDAE (8 November 2015)

Just an update (for myself more than anything). Woody is turning into a lovely chap - he's still wary but is becoming bolder and handles like my other horses now 

The update is that on Weds the vet is coming for the mass gelding and all 3 are getting done at the same time. I've practiced 'injecting' him using an empty syringe and pinching the skin on his neck, so when the vet does it it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Wish us luck!


----------



## EQUIDAE (10 November 2015)

I didn't sleep much last night - kept having nightmares that he would refuse to be caught and I wouldn't be able to get him gelded. Turns out he had snapped his (field safe) headcollar and although we haven't practiced putting on the headcollar in the field he stood perfectly to be caught - with a little help from a juicy pear.

So the 3 of them are stabled tonight and are sweating their little socks off despite having bib clips. I'd bib clipped they were sweating in the field but it seems it's not enough off for in the stable.

A couple of head shots to make it less me rambling.


----------



## EQUIDAE (11 November 2015)

Well he's done!

He didn't disgrace himself, and although nervy with the vet he was friendly with her and didn't try and kick. He is 14h and took twice the amount of sedation that the 15h boy took! But we got there 

At 11am we had a minutes silence whilst the emasculators were clamped on his testicles... He has been passported as Lest We Forget


----------



## DappleGreyDaydreamer (11 November 2015)

Seems to me you have a horse who's been pushed so much by humans that his fear has crossed the boundary between fight and flight, and instead of trying to escape he's jumping straight to the attack. I worked with a similar horse a couple of years ago, he was 3 but not gelded, and it stuck in my mind. My first inclination was to start work immediately, but I was recommended to turn him out for 6 months with older horses to mature and learn some respect from them the natural way. He didn't come into much contact with humans during that point, only when me or my partner went into the field to catch one of the others, rug them, check their water and come into the field to feed. He kept his distance, which was an improvement, as before he would have charged at us and gone straight in for the kick, which sounds like what yours is doing.

Your boy is still very young, he needs some time to be a youngster before he can settle down to work. I'd recommend giving him a bit of a break with an older horse, then maybe starting on simple things like walking up to him in the field, but keeping a distance of about 10 feet between the two of you. If he stays where he is then you back away from him, if he backs away then walk towards him, and if he charges you (scary as I know it is), get out of his way, then approach him again, and keep doing that until he learns that the only way to get the people to leave him alone is by not reacting to the situation. 

At first with my youngster it seemed hopeless, I was in the field for hours dodging him, walking towards him again, and having to duck, but once he learns that the thing he afraid of will come in to his space, do nothing to harm or frighten him, and then walk out again, he'll feel no need to lash out or run away from it. It seems your boy is afraid of human contact after bad experiences in the past, and there is lots of good advice here for you, so good luck, and remember; don't give up on him!


----------



## EQUIDAE (11 November 2015)

DGD - we've had the breakthrough and he is a lovely boy now. I still don't trust him but he isn't trying to kill me any more. He was that bad that I couldn't do what you suggested - that was what I would normally have done but as soon as you went in the field he would charge you. We did over the gate first  he soon learned that I meant nice stuff when he saw the other two fawning all over me for treats.

My proud moment today what when he turned his neck round today and whuffled the vet. I think he genuinely wants to like people and be liked - he's still wary but so so much better than he was


----------



## DappleGreyDaydreamer (11 November 2015)

I am so pleased to hear that, good on you for not giving up on him, I know a lot of people who would have stopped trying  you seem like a very honest person and if you keep your arms open for him then he will turn out to be your very best friend. 
It's great that he's realised how to behave, and as he learns to trust you more I'm sure you will learn to trust him, but I perfectly understand that after such an ordeal you would be wary around him. 
Keep going, he'll be a wonderful boy one day!


----------



## EQUIDAE (11 November 2015)

Thank you  I have been slated on here a bit for not getting a behaviourist in but the way I was doing it was working. Also I knew there was going to be no quick fixes...

I came very very close to having him put down - I've never seen anything like it. It has taken until today for me to be comfortable that he wasn't going to try and kill the vet.

I'm sure with time he will come round completely 

When they say there's a reason why a horse is cheap - it's true


----------



## EQUIDAE (15 November 2015)

Bit of an update - the gelding went well and both boys are healing well ano were turned out 48 hours later. Sadly Woody seems to have taken a backwards step and has gone a bit grumpy. He's not tried anything on but is making his feelings quite clear that he isn't happy - let's hope it is just that he's feeling a bit sore and we can get back on track soon.


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 November 2015)

Bit more of an update - he's been suspicious of me since gelding and even more since walkers left the property open and he got out. He's not been aggressive in any way, but has been very evasive as to being caught and no wanting fuss, whereas he was starting to initiate it. As he was fine with the vet, I decided to get a NH trainer out (he's well thought of so thought he would be the best bet). He started working loose with him in the school to allow him to find his own comfort zone and started doing whatever it was that he does with them (I wasn't exactly sure and he didn't explain very well). My boy was getting more and more anxious (in my view) but the NH man just kept saying 'see he is relaxing - he's licking and chewing' and wanted to push him a little more out of his comfort zone. I could see that he was getting more and more tense and anticipated that he might explode - not safe as I have seen his very bad side. I told the trainer that I didn't want to continue as I wasn't happy with how my horse was behaving. I didn't say anything about thinking his interpretation was wrong, I just wanted him gone. He started harping on that it's no wonder the horse has become aggressive with me and that I didn't understand horse behaviour. I was astounded - it was perfectly clear that the licking and chewing wasn't relaxation, especially as every time he approached the horse he pinned his ears back too.

With hindsight maybe I should have got a woman as he hates men?

I'm quite upset with the situation - he is none the worse for his experience but what could have happened if I'd allowed him to continue?

I'll try and get a video of the licking behaviour as it's hard to explain.


----------



## fburton (26 November 2015)

Licking and chewing is often associated with being acutely stressed or getting a fright. By itself it doesn't mean the horse is relaxed. It may indicate an easing of that stress, or a brief respite from it, but whatever caused the stress, such as being pushed or chased around, may still be there. I think your instinct was justified in this case.

NH trainers may be experienced and effective, but in my view their interpretations can be way off - relative to my behavioural viewpoint anyway. He didn't talk about dominance by any chance? That's usually a pretty good sign of misinterpretation and, consequently, misapplication.

It's hard to know for sure what would have happened if he had been allowed to continue. It is possible your boy would have given in and 'behaved' as the trainer wanted, sooner or later. Or he might have been noticeably traumatized. Or he may have become aggressive again. I very much doubt there would have been a lasting beneficial outcome, but I could be wrong.


----------



## EQUIDAE (26 November 2015)

He did talk about dominant behaviour when referring to his aggressive behaviour. I'd say it's more defensive though... 

Tonight I managed to walk up to him and pop a head collar on first time - that's a result as normally he dodges me for a bit first.


----------



## fburton (27 November 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			He did talk about dominant behaviour when referring to his aggressive behaviour. I'd say it's more defensive though...
		
Click to expand...

It could well be! There are several possible causes of aggressive behaviour; dominance is only one of them, and arguably one of the least relevant to the majority of situations involving people and horses.

May I ask: did he say, or imply by what he said, what "dominant behaviour" calls for by way of response? How did he expect to deal with it?




			Tonight I managed to walk up to him and pop a head collar on first time - that's a result as normally he dodges me for a bit first.
		
Click to expand...

Great, progress!  It'll take patience and sensitivity, but keep doing what works and makes things better, and avoid doing what doesn't and makes things worse.


----------



## Hetsmum (27 November 2015)

Not sure which part of the world you are in but if you look on this site (equine behaviour and training association):

http://www.ebta.co.uk/

you will find trainers who are scientifically trained in equine behaviour and will tell you your instincts behind the licking and chewing were correct.  It is fearful submissive behaviour and not one you would really want to encourage.  If you do think you want some help then ebta would be my first port of call.  I have used a behaviourist twice with excellent results.  The thing also is that the behaviour shouldn't return if it is addressed correctly.  Many 'quick fixes' will work for a short time but the behaviour may return.  Also worth reading some of the blogs on here:

www.hartshorsemanship.com

look at the 'Thoughts' tab.  There is loads of interesting stuff......I've not read it all but very educational.

Good luck with him.


----------



## EQUIDAE (27 November 2015)

Thanks for the replies and suggestions - I'm going to look into it.

I managed to get a video of him and his tongue - and this is 'relaxed' in the stable...


----------



## EQUIDAE (27 November 2015)

Can't get the vid to embed 

http://www.4shared.com/video/3EhIkekQce/img_9271.html


----------



## Goldenstar (27 November 2015)

I bred an aggressive horse she was aggressive from a foal biting and lashing out with her forelegs was her speciality .
I spent a fortune at the vet trying to find a reason at three she went for me when was brushing her mane and knocked me out I came to in the corridor outside the stable I have no idea how I got out there I had her PTS the next week.
If you had bought her you would have thought her badly treated but she was not .
It was sad but it was the safest thing to do .


----------



## fburton (27 November 2015)

Interesting. It looks as if he has been given something juicy to eat before the video and he is now licking his lips. Assuming that isn't the case, it might be so-called "displacement activity" - which can happen when there is a conflict between two motivations e.g. wanting to investigate something but also being a bit fearful or uncertain of it - that something being _you_ in this instance! I wouldn't say it's a big deal though. I think you are on the right track with him.


----------



## EQUIDAE (27 November 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I had her PTS the next week.
		
Click to expand...

I had considered this at the start  he's had his nads off now so any hormonal influence should go. He does seem to want to be friendly, just hasn't known how.



fburton said:



			Interesting. It looks as if he has been given something juicy to eat before the video and he is now licking his lips. Assuming that isn't the case, it might be so-called "displacement activity" - which can happen when there is a conflict between two motivations e.g. wanting to investigate something but also being a bit fearful or uncertain of it - that something being _you_ in this instance! I wouldn't say it's a big deal though. I think you are on the right track with him.
		
Click to expand...

He's like this all the time, even without treats (none in this instance). I think you are bang on with describing him - that is exactly what he is like. When he is confident he is a lovely chap...

Thank you for you kind comments saying I am on the right track with him - that means so much. I took quite a lot of flack when I first posted - people described the situation as 'odd' and to be honest I got the feeling that people thought I was some sort of idiot. 

I've started another approach with him today. When you go to put a head collar on him he will stand with his body next to you and turn his head away - almost refusing to look at you. If you put a hand under his neck and pull a little he will turn his head towards you to put the head collar on but it is reluctant. So I'm doing something I've never done before (because I'm not a fan TBH) and I am target training him. I'm using his headcollar as the target - I started off holding the headcollar towards him and did nothing and the second he moved towards it I gave him a treat. He cottoned on pretty quickly which hand had the treats in but I kept my hand closed until he touched the headcollar. Within half a dozen treats he was going for the headcollar hand rather than the treat. Next I moved to delivering the treat through the nose of the headcollar and within half a dozen times he was putting his nose in the headcollar himself to get the treat. I stopped there and will do some more over the next few days. The plan is to get him headcollaring himself  

It's been a positive day  I've also had my mare jumping mini spreads for the first time (she's 6) and had my first canter on my 5yo entire.

The girl 







The boy with my instructor - must get some pics of me riding...


----------



## Tiddlypom (27 November 2015)

Not read the whole thread, but looking at his antics with his tongue in post #115, has he been seen by a dentist? Looks like discomfort to me.


----------



## EQUIDAE (27 November 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Not read the whole thread, but looking at his antics with his tongue in post #115, has he been seen by a dentist? Looks like discomfort to me.
		
Click to expand...

He's only two and hasn't started losing his milk teeth yet. All the milk teeth are normal in position, shape and size - I had the vet check him over when he was being gelded.


----------



## Dry Rot (27 November 2015)

It looks to me as if there is something very odd about that horse's left eye. Or is it just me? 

Here is another licking horse:

[video=youtube_share;VqazOsLimxw]https://youtu.be/VqazOsLimxw[/video]


----------



## EQUIDAE (27 November 2015)

Dry Rot said:



			It looks to me as if there is something very odd about that horse's left eye. Or is it just me?
		
Click to expand...

He's just got white around the eye instead of brown like most have. Makes him look a wild eye, especially when he rolls it backwards and pins his ears back...


----------



## Flyermc (27 November 2015)

I'm not sure if this is helpful, but I've seen 2 horses over the years on my yard that have done this with there tongue, both only did it whilst stabled and neither were arrgressive. It was caused by stress (like a stable vice) anything that caused them stress, they'd start.


----------



## EQUIDAE (27 November 2015)

Flyermc said:



			I'm not sure if this is helpful, but I've seen 2 horses over the years on my yard that have done this with there tongue, both only did it whilst stabled and neither were arrgressive. It was caused by stress (like a stable vice) anything that caused them stress, they'd start.
		
Click to expand...

He does do it with stress - the NH guy told me I was wrong and he was showing relaxation. I disagreed... He does it in the field too, and also does it to other horses.


----------



## Flyermc (27 November 2015)

The horses I knew would did it mainly in there stable, but also ridden (if asked to do something in the school that's different) I've never seen them do it in the field, but that's not to say that didn't!

It was repetative they'd do it over and over again


----------



## Dry Rot (27 November 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			He's just got white around the eye instead of brown like most have. Makes him look a wild eye, especially when he rolls it backwards and pins his ears back...
		
Click to expand...

If you hadn't corrected me, I'd have guessed it was an enlarged nictitating membrane in the left eye, possibly causing a vision defect. But you know your horse and you've had him vetted. The horse in my video will have his vision partially obscured by the vertical bars of the stable door. A horse with a vision defect might well become aggressive, but then he hasn't one so we can rule that out.


----------



## EQUIDAE (27 November 2015)

Dry Rot said:



			If you hadn't corrected me, I'd have guessed it was an enlarged nictitating membrane in the left eye, possibly causing a vision defect. But you know your horse and you've had him vetted.
		
Click to expand...

I can definitely see where you are coming from. It's definitely not a membrane though. I'll see if I can get a better picture  good thinking though.


----------



## spookypony (29 November 2015)

The NH trainer sounds like a numpty; glad you are trusting your interpretations over his. Even before I got to the part where you were getting him to target his headcollar, I was thinking that he sounds like an excellent candidate for clicker training. 

People that don't understand its principles tend to think of it as some sort of fluffy-bunny approach, but it's quite the opposite: it requires precision, consistency, and enormous self-discipline. But it can work really well with worried animals, because there is no pressure, and it becomes the animal's decision to try things. Alexandra Kurland once said to us at a clinic that you are teaching the animal how to learn. The main difference between it and positive reinforcement in general is the presence of the marker signal before the reward (which doesn't need to be food!). This allows the great precision.


----------



## fburton (29 November 2015)

As much as I like to use positive reinforcement myself and admire skilled clicker practitioners, my gut feeling is that it may be a little advanced to embark on a programme of CT with this pony at this time. It _could_ work wonderfully, but there is also a risk of raising the emotional stakes and inadvertently creating unwanted behaviours and 'attitudes'. Spookypony, you are absolutely right that it allows great precision, but sometimes it requires great precision too. It's not impossible to go wrong with CT, particularly when used with 'problem' horses.

Equidae, if you have done this before and feel you have a strong grasp of how it works and what's involved, by all means go ahead - especially using non-food rewards. If not, it may be better to defer this plan until you gain experience with less problematic individuals. You wouldn't use a pressure halter without instruction, would you? But people do, don't they? And a lot of the time it's fine - but it's a potent tool that can be misused. One may not be able to inflict needless pain with CT, but CT can cause other problems sometimes.

As I say, this is just my opinion and what my instinct tells me. I could be wrong - I don't know your pony and your circumstances! And it's not for me to dictate what people should or should not do.


----------



## EQUIDAE (29 November 2015)

I'm not clicker training, I'm just target training him to touch the headcollar to gain a treat, so he will put his head through the noseband rather than me having to follow him around until he gives up. I've done clicker training with dogs in the past so I'm good with the whole timing thing. I don't think a clicker would work with him anyway as he's so skittish with loud noises - I've known dogs do react badly to the noise in the past, so I should imagine a nervous horse could be worse... I've target trained youngsters before so it's not all new.

Here's my number one boy as a foal being introduced to the idea of being haltered loose in the field. The aim has always been to hold it open and them put their own nose in it.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (29 November 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			He does do it with stress - the NH guy told me I was wrong and he was showing relaxation. I disagreed... He does it in the field too, and also does it to other horses.
		
Click to expand...

I answered on your other thread about the L&C and my thoughts on NH practitioners I'll not put down. 

fwiw, my old horse used to do the same sort of lip licking seen in both your video and DRs. He would start when I began making up feeds and only then-and stop once he'd eaten. Teeth and ad-lib forage all present and correct. He was a very laid back chap generally so I didn't worry about it. 

Someone mentioned Ben Hart and I have to recommend his stuff. I am wary of clicker training myself because its takes more discipline than I have-not because I don't think it works. I recently bought my first horse box and worked out a shaping plan based on some of his others (I bought the restarting pack) and both my youngsters are loading well and I've used a couple of the others too. Neither are 'problem' horses though I've struggled to build a relationship with one of them. It's not a million miles away from more traditional horsemanship but it does provide a plan to work to-which personally helps me as I can become easily distracted!


----------



## EQUIDAE (29 November 2015)

Easily distracted - I like that!

We are getting there slowly and I am so happy with him compared to how he was


----------



## Dry Rot (29 November 2015)

Nature is rather economical with behaviour and sometimes almost identical behaviours arise for different things. (Crying and laughing in humans is sometimes quite similar). But Nature seldom wastes them. The licking must be for a reason, even if we don't know what that reason is. Work that out and you are on your way to a solution. Why do other aninimals lick in a similar manner? I suggested it might be something to do with eye sight because snakes and lizards 'taste' their way around their environment. We all know about flehmen. Could it be something similar? Aggression can be prompted by feelings of insecure, e.g. attacking being a form of defence, and poor eye sight would certainly make an animal feel insecure.


----------



## fburton (29 November 2015)

Equidae, what you say about target training and your mention of doing CT with dogs eases my qualms substantially. Carry on with what you're doing - I'm sure it's fine. 

Re the licking: the behaviour I was referring to, which I thought you were talking about in relation to the NH trainer, is what is commonly known as "licking and chewing". This is quite different in appearance from what's in the video. That's not to say that the tongue lolling (as I would call it) doesn't have a stress or anxiety component, but it's not the classic response one sees so often when a horse has been stressed or gets a fright. I'm still inclined to think it is displacement activity - but, as Dry Rot says, some behaviours that look the same can have quite different causes.


----------



## EQUIDAE (29 November 2015)

Thanks for all the support - he's had a weekend off much handling (other than a quick feed) as I've been working 13 hour shifts. So back to 'work' on Monday with him and doing a bit more general handling with him. I do like his little face and he is always the first of the lot of them to come running when I call them in


----------



## brighteyes (29 November 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Thanks for the replies and suggestions - I'm going to look into it.

I managed to get a video of him and his tongue - and this is 'relaxed' in the stable...
		
Click to expand...

That's a stereotypie developing, due to an anxiety or stress. Clue is the sideways licking. Does he work up a froth?


----------



## EQUIDAE (29 November 2015)

brighteyes said:



			That's a stereotypie developing, due to an anxiety or stress. Clue is the sideways licking. Does he work up a froth?
		
Click to expand...

He does sometimes - his mannerisms when he is doing it make it so clear it is stress/anxiety, I couldn't believe anyone would think it was relaxed behaviour.


----------



## Dry Rot (29 November 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			He does sometimes - his mannerisms when he is doing it make it so clear it is stress/anxiety, I couldn't believe anyone would think it was relaxed behaviour.
		
Click to expand...

Which begs the question, why are the horses is both videos stressed by looking over the stable door? It doesn't make sense and, as Judge Judy says, if it doesn't make sense, it isn't true!

I agree, low key chewing and licking is relaxation after a period of mild stress, e.g. coming down from a stressy interlude during lunging to more regular work. 

I also agree that this is something different, like my GSD chasing his tail (OCD). He chases his tail when he thinks he should be getting out of the kennel so, yes, a displacement. Frustrated hunting behaviour channelled into chasing his own tail. I still think the horses might be 'tasting the air', possibly triggered by the presence of the owner. We need someone who has spent time watching herds of horses in the wild.


----------



## EQUIDAE (29 November 2015)

Dry Rot said:



			Which begs the question, why are the horses is both videos stressed by looking over the stable door? It doesn't make sense and, as Judge Judy says, if it doesn't make sense, it isn't true!

Click to expand...

He's stressed looking over the stable door as he was gelded the day before so pretty fed up...


----------



## EQUIDAE (2 December 2015)

It's now been long enough post gelding that I have now introduced him and his buddy to my mare. They have been out with my entire without bother, I'm going to let this little herd establish and then reintroduce him (he is calm and non-aggressive and mare is marbled).

The introduction went better than expected - possibly because they were distracted with carrots...Woody actually seemed more interested in me than his new friend

[video]https://www.facebook.com/leanne.kaut/videos/10153657233585781/[/video]


----------



## EQUIDAE (1 January 2016)

Over the past month he has been out with my mare and other gelding - today he was introduced to my stallion. Theyve been able to touch over the fence for months but today they went in together  a little squealing and then they settled down to eat as a herd of 5 

Of the 5 of them he is still the first to come and say hello! He really is turning into such a lovely lad 

http://www.4shared.com/video/MxKcoCnQba/MOV_0237_000.html


----------



## EQUIDAE (1 January 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			It looks to me as if there is something very odd about that horse's left eye. Or is it just me?
		
Click to expand...

I managed to get a picture of his eye. Although he does have a large 3rd eyelid or whatever it is called, it doesn't obscure his vision.


----------



## EQUIDAE (1 January 2016)

I tried to get a pretty shot but ended with loads where he looks big head, teeny body...







Also since gelding he seems to have pretty much stopped the licking. 

I really like this little horse


----------



## ester (1 January 2016)

Is it not just white sclera?


----------



## Slightlyconfused (1 January 2016)

ester said:



			Is it not just white sclera?
		
Click to expand...

Appaloosa have these. One of mine very pronounced


----------



## EQUIDAE (1 January 2016)

ester said:



			Is it not just white sclera?
		
Click to expand...

Yeah. Someone suggested he was blind in one eye though


----------



## EQUIDAE (19 April 2016)

A bit of an update on him - he was gelded, chipped and passported on 11/11 so we have called him Lest We Forget. He's had a new start and a new name as Woody was from when he was bad, so to take away any negative connotations with his name he is now called Lester.

He's been wintered off and has really blossomed in his little herd. Always the first across the field to say hello and is the friendliest of the bunch now - though he is still terribly head shy.

Last weekend he wore a bit for the first time - just a straight bar happy mouth, covered in honey and tied to his headcollar with baling twine for a bit. He was totally happy with this so today I tried it with a bridle too - he was a little gem 







Please excuse the state of him he's been wintered out and looks like no one owns him


----------



## EQUIDAE (19 April 2016)

He didn't even bother about a saddle either - no girth but he was so chilled about it all.


----------



## EQUIDAE (19 April 2016)

I put him in the arena with his buddy for a little play and discovered he has quite a pop on him


----------



## EQUIDAE (19 April 2016)

And finally him and his buddy 







Can anyone else see the pictures? I can't


----------



## crabbymare (19 April 2016)

it worked a minute ago 





that worked it looks like its the links you have but without the dot html on the end


----------



## crabbymare (19 April 2016)

EQUIDAE said:



			A bit of an update on him - he was gelded, chipped and passported on 11/11 so we have called him Lest We Forget. He's had a new start and a new name as Woody was from when he was bad, so to take away any negative connotations with his name he is now called Lester.

He's been wintered off and has really blossomed in his little herd. Always the first across the field to say hello and is the friendliest of the bunch now - though he is still terribly head shy.

Last weekend he wore a bit for the first time - just a straight bar happy mouth, covered in honey and tied to his headcollar with baling twine for a bit. He was totally happy with this so today I tried it with a bridle too - he was a little gem 







Please excuse the state of him he's been wintered out and looks like no one owns him 

Click to expand...

 changed the link


----------



## EQUIDAE (19 April 2016)

Thanks Crabbymare


----------



## EQUIDAE (20 April 2016)

We got a bit of mutual grooming today over the stable door - another first! Obviously not too traumatised by yesterday  I got the measuring stick on him and he's 14h1 at the withers and 14h2 at the bum. 

I'm really chuffed with how he's turned round and come good


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (20 April 2016)

He looks to have a kind eye and a bit of intelligence, well done you.


----------



## MummyEms (21 April 2016)

Not read any replies as don't have time but wanted to tell you everything bought a troubled pony free to a knowledgable home *I am but my husband and children are not* she was almost exactly like yours at first.  She' did nearly get sent off by me when she charged at the children one day.  Anyway I decided no one was to handle her or go into her field except me.  This was for quote a few weeks. I spent some time each day work leading backing her up. Scratches and treats (ok for short term trust building) eventually and gradually her ooutlook changed and get temperament softened.  Then the children and dof were allowed in only with me.  Kept on with ground training and grooming and started leading out too. Eventually a few months on I now have a wonderful pony who my children can do most things with and spend time.  She's definitely at her best and most relaxed when I'm around but it's only 4 months in. She's now done pc rallies on lead rein, tots clear round and even having her feet picked out by my little girls.  Good luck


----------



## EQUIDAE (22 April 2016)

Thanks Bonkers2 and MummyEms.

Yesterday all the youngsters came in for the day as they were sweating just stood in the field  one has beat my clippers so I may see if I can borrow some shearing clippers lol. The little pony is now sleek and glowing white! And Lester (Woody) had a but of a pamper session too.

I only managed to clip his neck as a) he wasn't so sure about it and b) just before I did it he decided to kneel in his water bucket and soak both himself and the stable. I also managed to get the scissors on the knotted mess that is his mane - no matter how much you brush it it ends up a mess as the youngsters mutual groom and tangle it all again. So I got the scissors on it, sprayed it liberally with mane and tail (he was fine with that surprisingly) and dragged a brush through it. I will thin and tidy at a later date but it's plenty for now.


----------



## EQUIDAE (22 April 2016)

Looking pleased with himself at getting soaked!







Looks like I'm failing with the images again 

Can anyone can help?


----------



## EQUIDAE (22 April 2016)

Seems I'm too slow to edit 

The hacked mane - this will be finished and less bog brushy eventually 






g

And finally his small clipped area - obviously a work in progress here but I didn't want to push or rush this as I like having horses that are good to clip and my method for getting them used to it has worked so far


----------



## ester (22 April 2016)




----------



## ester (22 April 2016)

EQUIDAE said:



			Seems I'm too slow to edit 

The hacked mane - this will be finished and less bog brushy eventually 







And finally his small clipped area - obviously a work in progress here but I didn't want to push or rush this as I like having horses that are good to clip and my method for getting them used to it has worked so far 






Click to expand...

sorted


----------



## EQUIDAE (22 April 2016)

Thanks Ester. I deleted the .html and it didn't work  I never used to have these issues posting pictures


----------



## EQUIDAE (8 May 2016)

He's really coning out of himself - such a friendly lad now  a couple of little vids of his transformation

https://www.4shared.com/video/RX5RHbP3ba/MOV_1210_000.html


----------



## EQUIDAE (8 May 2016)

He's even trusting enough that he doesn't get up when you go in the stable 

https://www.4shared.com/video/r0OKGnx3ba/MOV_1304_000.html


----------



## EQUIDAE (11 June 2016)

Advertised him for sale but one who said he wasn't suitable for them and two who I wouldn't sell to. Fourth ones managed to shut the gate on his side and puncture him with the gate latch  Poor lad has taken so many steps back now  He's not gone aggressive but he has gone more nervous again. He had been doing so well...


----------



## EQUIDAE (15 December 2016)

This chap has had such a rough time - he's now come down with grass sickness and is being PTS in the morning  That's two horses of mine in a month who have come down with it


----------



## D66 (15 December 2016)

Oh no. I am sorry. Do you have more horses? Can you move the others off the fields?


----------



## EQUIDAE (15 December 2016)

D66 said:



			Oh no. I am sorry. Do you have more horses? Can you move the others off the fields?
		
Click to expand...

They're stabled until they can be moved next Tuesday


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (16 December 2016)

Don't really have anything to say, but very sorry.


----------



## Casey76 (16 December 2016)

I'm so sorry to hear that.


----------



## Roxylola (16 December 2016)

So sorry


----------



## silv (16 December 2016)

What a shame, so terribly sorry to read this, take care.


----------

