# Kissing Spine... would you buy a horse with it? (post op)



## kezz86 (19 August 2018)

Hello all, 

Would you buy a horse who has had the kissing spine op in the last 8 months? (will confirm but I believe it was the ligament snip one).

Horse is now back in ridden work and even did a novice dressage test recently achieving over 70%

6 years old, warmblood and ticks all boxes for me except the KS thing.

Obviously I know I won't be able to insure for loss of use or back.

Of course then how does this effect value? 

It is certainly making me nervous, though I'm getting scans, X-rays etc. and will discuss with my vet. 

Has anyone had a similar experience or had to sell a horse like it?


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## Coblover63 (19 August 2018)

Personally, I wouldn't risk it.   There are plenty of horses out there without KS.  

I went to a talk on KS recently and the vet said that they haven't been doing operations for long enough to know the true long-term prognoses for these horses and as this horse is only 6 you just don't know what the future holds.


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## Beausmate (19 August 2018)

Definitely not.  I wouldn't even take one on as a freebie, as I don't think they stand up to work for long.

Sorry OP!


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## Goldenstar (19 August 2018)

A six year old no definatly not .


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## kezz86 (19 August 2018)

Sadly I thought this would be the majority answer... Partly why I'm asking, to kind of confirm my thoughts.



Particularly as he's not "cheap" in my opinion


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## Bernster (19 August 2018)

Nope, have one with KS and am on a Facebook group. Although there are some success stories, the bad outweighs the good. Expensive, often life long, requiring a lot of work effort and money. It won&#8217;t be covered by insurance presumably so a potentially expensive and heart breaking thing to take on. It does make me sad as I know what this means for my girl, but it&#8217;s jist one of those crappy things.


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## DabDab (19 August 2018)

Not personally no


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## milliepops (19 August 2018)

kezz86 said:



			Particularly as he's not "cheap" in my opinion
		
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Hmmm I agree with the others that it would be very off putting at 6yo.

I also wouldn't choose one, an extremely nice horse at a pretty low price could swing me but not as my only riding horse -easier to be more relaxed about things when you have a "spare"


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## Pearlsasinger (19 August 2018)

No and I wouldn't be paying for scans, x-rays etc either.  The horse is the responsibility of the person who decided to make it have the operation.  If they can't/don't want to keep it now, they should offer it for loan and be prepared to take it back if it needs further intervention.   Or do the decent thing.


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## kezz86 (19 August 2018)

Pearlsasinger said:



			No and I wouldn't be paying for scans, x-rays etc either.  The horse is the responsibility of the person who decided to make it have the operation.  If they can't/don't want to keep it now, they should offer it for loan and be prepared to take it back if it needs further intervention.   Or do the decent thing.
		
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Thankfully they are providing scans etc. for my vet to look at... I was considering asking them about permanent loan... so they have the responsibility still.. but felt this was super cheeky as they have him for sale at £5500!!!


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## kezz86 (19 August 2018)

milliepops said:



			Hmmm I agree with the others that it would be very off putting at 6yo.

I also wouldn't choose one, an extremely nice horse at a pretty low price could swing me but not as my only riding horse -easier to be more relaxed about things when you have a "spare" 

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I like the idea of having a "spare" Unfortunately I've already got two and sadly both are on and off work all the time... Maybe if I have three at least one will be rideable at any one time!


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## Pearlsasinger (19 August 2018)

kezz86 said:



			I like the idea of having a "spare" Unfortunately I've already got two and sadly both are on and off work all the time... Maybe if I have three at least one will be rideable at any one time!
		
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I don't think you should bank on this one being sound when the others are not!

And I think they must be mad, or think others are.  At 6 they can't even call it a schoolmaster.


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## ycbm (19 August 2018)

Ligament desmotomy , wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

Bone removal/shaving - I'd take it for free.


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## milliepops (19 August 2018)

kezz86 said:



			I like the idea of having a "spare" Unfortunately I've already got two and sadly both are on and off work all the time... Maybe if I have three at least one will be rideable at any one time!
		
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agree with PaS on this - a horse that you already know to have a physical problem (even if it's had some treatment) doesn't sound like the reliable specimen you need then!


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## DirectorFury (19 August 2018)

kezz86 said:



			Thankfully they are providing scans etc. for my vet to look at... I was considering asking them about permanent loan... so they have the responsibility still.. but felt this was super cheeky as they have him for sale at £5500!!!
		
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There's one too many zeros there! That's an insane price.
I'd consider one for free if it was a) very nice, b) I had my own land so I wouldn't be paying livery if it couldn't stand up to work and c) I would be fully prepared to PTS if something went wrong.


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## TGM (19 August 2018)

kezz86 said:



			they have him for sale at £5500!!!
		
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Wow!  They are living in cloud cuckoo land surely ...


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## PaddyMonty (19 August 2018)

Mixed feelings on this one. 7 weeks ago I would have said don't touch with any length bargepole.
Then 6 weeks ago I started schooling an 11yo TB ex racehorse which had had the op around 5 years ago. Other than the physical evidence of the op on his back you wouldn't know there was ever a problem. Just come back from 3 days at RC camp where he was showjumping and having a complete hooley through the XC clinic. So now my black and white opinion is more gray.
However, his owner does worry about breaking him (hasn't yet) so I guess that will always be on your mind.
To the horse in question, £5k is crazy price. Meat money is more reasonable, free loan better.
At 6 the horse is unlikely to have finished maturing so this would also worry me about how any additional growth could affect it. Warmbloods can be late maturing.
On balance I would say free loan or walk away.


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## kezz86 (19 August 2018)

PaddyMonty said:



			Mixed feelings on this one. 7 weeks ago I would have said don't touch with any length bargepole.
Then 6 weeks ago I started schooling an 11yo TB ex racehorse which had had the op around 5 years ago. Other than the physical evidence of the op on his back you wouldn't know there was ever a problem. Just come back from 3 days at RC camp where he was showjumping and having a complete hooley through the XC clinic. So now my black and white opinion is more gray.
However, his owner does worry about breaking him (hasn't yet) so I guess that will always be on your mind.
To the horse in question, £5k is crazy price. Meat money is more reasonable, free loan better.

At 6 the horse is unlikely to have finished maturing so this would also worry me about how any additional growth could affect it. Warmbloods can be late maturing.
On balance I would say free loan or walk away.
		
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Thanks PaddyMonty... this is a very fair assessment... 


For me the biggest thing holding me back now from taking him on is honestly the money! I'm in agreement with what everyone has said he's just too expensive for me to be taking that much of a gamble on him (even though he is really lovely! and would otherwise have potentially been a £9000+ horse...)

Thank you everyone, I am still going to chat to vets, then perhaps have a very straight convo with the owner... I really like the horse and would like to give him a chance but if owners not willing to give on price then I will walk away!


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## ycbm (19 August 2018)

In think there is a very big difference between the ligament snip,, which leaves almost no scarring and is now known to cause later shine instability, according to my vet. And an operation involving process removal and/or bone shaving which does not destabilise the same way and removes the clashing bone. 

Which one did the horse have done?


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## kezz86 (19 August 2018)

ycbm said:



			I'm pretty sure he had the ligament snip but I'll get this confirmed this week when I get the scans etc.
		
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## SusieT (19 August 2018)

nope, definitely not. a lot of the time other issues raise their head further down the line.
Even if he was free I'd have to think hard about it as I want a horse I can enjoy for 10-15 years minimum and everytime they had a sore back I'd be worrying about it.


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## Auslander (19 August 2018)

We had a beautiful, well bred, talented 7yr old put to sleep a few weeks ago after a diagnosis of KS. Technically, he could have had surgery, but his owner decided that there wasn't enough certainty of a fix to go ahead. He had slightly odd back conformation, and was prone to sudden irrational outbursts of what looked like temper, or sometimes just blind panic - the last time he was ridden, he worked beautifully in walk and trot, rider asked for canter, and he just flipped. I've had a few PTS over the years, but this one made me so sad - such a waste of a lovely little horse.

I worry about the mental health implications - whether a young horse who has presumably been in pain for most of it's ridden life can come back after surgery without any deep rooted problems - and also about the domino effect of fixing one part of a very flexible structure. If there is a conformational weakness that has caused the KS in the first place, that is't going to go away. Layman musings, so feel free to rubbish me!!


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## nikkimariet (19 August 2018)

If horse was older and had proved the op successful with more work and more results and I didn't have GP dreams AND the price was right... Possibly, yes.

At that age I wouldn't risk it. Such a young age to develop such a big problem imho.


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## kezz86 (19 August 2018)

I'm a bit sad now this poor lovely horse so genuine and lovely.

However this thread has seriously backed up my concerns


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## alainax (19 August 2018)

Considering the opinions on this thread would be the same potential future buyers would have if you ever tried to sell him on ( due to some unforeseen reason).


I wouldnt, as a plus sized rider I need to have a suitable match, just wouldnt seem fair to the horse if it had previous back problems.


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## bluehorse (19 August 2018)

No I wouldn't.  I bought my last horse as a 5yo, flew through the vetting.  He was a difficult and temperamental ride but as he was new to me it took me while to realise that there was a problem, I just thought I had over-horsed myself.  He was diagnosed with kissing spine 18 months later, and also with a bony spur in his right hind fetlock which we found at the same time and which undoubtedly caused the kissing spine (kissing spine is often a secondary condition).  He had the kissing spine op and the fetlock operated on all at the same time.  That fixed him and we went on to do a small amount of low level BE which he loved. But by the time he was 9 he had hock problems, so I had his hocks injected for 3 years which was successful but then other things started to go wrong and I made the heartbreaking decision to have him PTS last year at just 13 years old.  He was never a very sound horse, but with a lot of effort he was successfully managed sound. I am certain that the kissing spine was symptom and not a cause, and I'm afraid that is the thing that would put me off above everything else.


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## kezz86 (19 August 2018)

bluehorse said:



			No I wouldn't.  I bought my last horse as a 5yo, flew through the vetting.  He was a difficult and temperamental ride but as he was new to me it took me while to realise that there was a problem, I just thought I had over-horsed myself.  He was diagnosed with kissing spine 18 months later, and also with a bony spur in his right hind fetlock which we found at the same time and which undoubtedly caused the kissing spine (kissing spine is often a secondary condition).  He had the kissing spine op and the fetlock operated on all at the same time.  That fixed him and we went on to do a small amount of low level BE which he loved. But by the time he was 9 he had hock problems, so I had his hocks injected for 3 years which was successful but then other things started to go wrong and I made the heartbreaking decision to have him PTS last year at just 13 years old.  He was never a very sound horse, but with a lot of effort he was successfully managed sound. I am certain that the kissing spine was symptom and not a cause, and I'm afraid that is the thing that would put me off above everything else.
		
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Sorry to hear this, this is also a concern of mine that there is more to the condition.

Thank you for your honest opinion, and sharing your heart breaking story... I do think I'll end up walking away


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## Flyermc (19 August 2018)

why does the owner want to sell, so soon after the op?

from there point of view, they might be thinking that the horse had a issue, it was sorted, they are being honest about it, are open vets looking at scans etc and (as mentioned in this thread) advertising a 9k horse for 5k to reflect this.

Will the horse stay sound? who knows, no one can guarantee that for any horse.

Would i take the chance? nope!!


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## kezz86 (19 August 2018)

Flyermc said:



			why does the owner want to sell, so soon after the op?

from there point of view, they might be thinking that the horse had a issue, it was sorted, they are being honest about it, are open vets looking at scans etc and (as mentioned in this thread) advertising a 9k horse for 5k to reflect this.

Will the horse stay sound? who knows, no one can guarantee that for any horse.

Would i take the chance? nope!!
		
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Totally 100% I think this is where the owners are and the horse seems to be doing great post op... however I think I now need to weigh out pros and cons and if its worth the gamble.

So I totally understand if they don't want to budge on price its their horse and their choice but I need to figure out if its worth the gamble from where I am sadly it's not looking good... Trying to keep an open mind and educate myself as much as possible by getting others personal experiences, before I speak to the vets.


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## DirectorFury (19 August 2018)

kezz86 said:



			Totally 100% I think this is where the owners are and the horse seems to be doing great post op... however I think I now need to weigh out pros and cons and if its worth the gamble.

So I totally understand if they don't want to budge on price its their horse and their choice but I need to figure out if its worth the gamble from where I am sadly it's not looking good... Trying to keep an open mind and educate myself as much as possible by getting others personal experiences, before I speak to the vets.
		
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Would you pull out 5k right now and set it on fire? 
No? Don't buy the horse.

This is an oversimplification but it's much more likely that the horse will break down sooner rather than later and your money will have been wasted.


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## Pearlsasinger (19 August 2018)

kezz86 said:



			Totally 100% I think this is where the owners are and the horse seems to be doing great post op... however I think I now need to weigh out pros and cons and if its worth the gamble.

So I totally understand if they don't want to budge on price its their horse and their choice but I need to figure out if its worth the gamble from where I am sadly it's not looking good... Trying to keep an open mind and educate myself as much as possible by getting others personal experiences, before I speak to the vets.
		
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I very much doubt that they will find anyone who is willing to pay more than a few pence for this horse - and anyone who does is, sadly, likely to regret it.

If you really like the horse, I would say you would like to loan it but be aware that it probably won't be the sound horse that you need right now.


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## Rollin (19 August 2018)

Well I have a horse diagnosed with very mild KS.  We took him to the vet because we thought he had been injured, he was sweating on his left shoulder after work.  The vet work up 'missed' the fact that he had fractured a rib but they diagnosed mild KS.

He was treated with an anti-spasmodic infusion and pain relief.  I then worked him for 4 months exactly as per vet instructions.  Long and low, walk to canter insight seat, then trot when fully warmed up.  Six months later x-rays showed a complete recovery.  Before we knew of his injury and mild KS he jumped clear round after clear round.

My advice is first look at the x-rays.


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## kezz86 (19 August 2018)

Rollin said:



			Well I have a horse diagnosed with very mild KS.  We took him to the vet because we thought he had been injured, he was sweating on his left shoulder after work.  The vet work up 'missed' the fact that he had fractured a rib but they diagnosed mild KS.

He was treated with an anti-spasmodic infusion and pain relief.  I then worked him for 4 months exactly as per vet instructions.  Long and low, walk to canter insight seat, then trot when fully warmed up.  Six months later x-rays showed a complete recovery.  Before we knew of his injury and mild KS he jumped clear round after clear round.

My advice is first look at the x-rays.
		
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This boy is post op... I'm concerned that the op can do more long term damage than if he had mild KS that could have been helped with correct work etc. I've read a few reports that the ligament snip can cause problems later on..

I'm so sad for this gorgeous horse


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## whiteflower (20 August 2018)

I've got a horse that had the ligament snip 4 years ago now. I would not take a horse that had had that op if you paid me


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## Nasicus (21 August 2018)

Walk away. There are plenty of great horses out there for less than £5.5k that haven't had to have surgery.
I know a few that have had the ligament snip, they came back into work for a short while, but all three of them are now retired as broodmares at a young age.


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## whiteflower (21 August 2018)

Nasicus said:



			Walk away. There are plenty of great horses out there for less than £5.5k that haven't had to have surgery.
I know a few that have had the ligament snip, they came back into work for a short while, but all three of them are now retired as broodmares at a young age.
		
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I'm not convinced by the affects the ligament snip may have long term on a horse. I know of several horses that have done ok for a couple of years then broken down and been retired/PTS. I would love to know if they have any data on horses current state say 5 years post op.....


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## ycbm (21 August 2018)

whiteflower said:



			I'm not convinced by the affects the ligament snip may have long term on a horse. I know of several horses that have done ok for a couple of years then broken down and been retired/PTS. I would love to know if they have any data on horses current state say 5 years post op.....
		
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They do, but it isn't yet published. One of the younger vets at the practice I use told me a year ago that she had just been to a conference about backs and that she now considered it completely unethical that local hospitals are still doing the operation. Instability of the spine is causing problems a short way down the line.

Mine was done but he smashed his head before he had fully completed the recovery. A friend's was done and it has not returned the horse to work. I know of a third that began to have fits immediately following the operation and was put down.  I would not touch a horse who's had it done if the owner paid me to take it and, of course, I'd never have another done myself.


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## kezz86 (21 August 2018)

ycbm said:



			They do, but it isn't yet published. One of the younger vets at the practice I use told me a year ago that she had just been to a conference about backs and that she now considered it completely unethical that local hospitals are still doing the operation. Instability of the spine is causing problems a short way down the line.

Mine was done but he smashed his head before he had fully completed the recovery. A friend's was done and it has not returned the horse to work. I know of a third that began to have fits immediately following the operation and was put down.  I would not touch a horse who's had it done if the owner paid me to take it and, of course, I'd never have another done myself.
		
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This would be so useful to see long term research!!!

Anyway I now have post op scans and am going to discuss with my vet tomorrow.

Having read everyones replies though I think I know what I have to do... &#128546;

Thank you everyone for your honest replies and sharing your KS stories sadly it seems general consensus is Id be mad to take him on...

I will let you all know what vet says and my final out come though I think you maybe able to guess!


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## Summit (22 August 2018)

kezz86 said:



			This would be so useful to see long term research!!!

Anyway I now have post op scans and am going to discuss with my vet tomorrow.

Having read everyone&#8217;s replies though I think I know what I have to do... &#55357;&#56866;

Thank you everyone for your honest replies and sharing your KS stories sadly it seems general consensus is I&#8217;d be mad to take him on...

I will let you all know what vet says and my final out come though I think you maybe able to guess!
		
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Perhaps your case will be stronger, once you have some knowledge of the scans, that you can persuade the owners to loan him to you....it comes across that you want him


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## kezz86 (22 August 2018)

Summit said:



			Perhaps your case will be stronger, once you have some knowledge of the scans, that you can persuade the owners to loan him to you....it comes across that you want him 

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Thanks Summit, my vet has with out a doubt told me to walk away.. not ifs or buts or even discussing it! Literally looked at scans and said "don't touch" :'(

Massively disappointed but I wanted to give him a chance a he seems like such a sweet boy.


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## Hormonal Filly (31 August 2018)

Having personally had a mare with KS it was successfully operated on at 8yrs old. She had secondary symptoms which were more severe or as bad as the KS. Ulcers, arthritis in her hocks, muscle damage, she was put to sleep at 9. The vet said nearly ever single horse with KS will have or experience secondary issues as they over compensate on other joints to avoid the pain. 

I'd be to worried about the secondary issues that may spring upon you. Specially being so young, a friend had a mare since 6 months old very well bred. It was diagnosed with KS at 3yrs old (not having done a days work ever) and then arthritis in her hocks 6 months later. She was PTS at 4 as it was so severe and it was bred into her the vet thinks. If this gelding is 6, hes either been hammered at a young age or its bred into him. What else could be bred into him, if so? Who knows. 

If you could get a clear MRI it would make me feel a bit more comfortable about it.


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