# Science versus Old Wives Tales?



## 1stclassalan (18 December 2010)

Now my old mum is convinced that you can catch a cold waiting at a bus stop - particularly if you've rushed out after washing your hair or had a recent bath but come on ...... this is 2010 not 1710 ..... you wouldn't expect a modern doctor to bleed you to effect a cure.

So why are there reports in last week's H & H about horses having colic problems because they've been kept in during the bad weather with the inference that the lack of movement and restricted water has caused their guts to impact. This report is of course dimetrically opposed but another feature a bit further in that says horses have evolved to do with water when they have to!

As far as I understand, the gut of all mammals works much like an earthworm moves - it is automatic and systematic - just as breathing and heartbeat are. 

It may well be that changes to diet can introduce imbalances in the body chemicals that control that movement but to blandly state that restricted access to water will do it is wrong.

I also have a strong opinion that the idea of a rolling horse twisting a gut is also one of the biggest myths - if the rolling horse has one - it is the cause of the rolling and not the other way about. 

Discuss.


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## FairyLights (18 December 2010)

Because the horse is designed to walk around all day not be stuck in a 12x12 box.


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## 1stclassalan (18 December 2010)

Notjustforxmas said:



			Because the horse is designed to walk around all day not be stuck in a 12x12 box.
		
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You are posting like my old mum! Horses - or that matter any of us were not "designed" to do anything by anything - we are all a bunch of interacting chemicals brought about by random chance. Once an organism is formed, what most folk call evolution by natural selection takes over. The fact that a horse is an animal of wide open spaces now ( even though it evolved from the eohippus of quite different "design" ) does not necessarily mean that it cannot cope without being cramped up.

And no amount of captivity will in my opinion stop the gut working like an earthworm no more than I'd expect it to stop a horse breathing.


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## smokeybabes (18 December 2010)

Impaction can be caused by a lack of water and dehydration. In order for things to move through the gut they need to be soft and contain a certain amount of water.


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## tristar (18 December 2010)

i always feed damped hay, and if they have to eat only hay indoors give a mash and my favourite is to cut long grass with shears to feed and just watch it come out the other end all lovely and green.
check the horses droppings to see if they are soft , if not, do something about it.


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## 3DE (18 December 2010)

As above - dehydration means that the gut reabsorbs more water making the food bolus harder and more prone to impaction. Also being stuck in a 12x12 and not able to move slows down the movement even further - moving around actually aids movement of food through the gut. Have you ever noticed that after a long walk or swim you often need a poo? Lack of exercise is a huge cause of human constipation...


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## ofcourseyoucan (18 December 2010)

horses were not designed to live indoors! walking and movement helps with gut activity, yes they can do without water for periods(but not ideal) as long as not eating cream crackers. science had evolved, but old wives tales generaly ring true!


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## teddyt (20 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			You are posting like my old mum! Horses - or that matter any of us were not "designed" to do anything by anything - we are all a bunch of interacting chemicals brought about by random chance. Once an organism is formed, what most folk call evolution by natural selection takes over. The fact that a horse is an animal of wide open spaces now ( even though it evolved from the eohippus of quite different "design" ) does not necessarily mean that it cannot cope without being cramped up.

And no amount of captivity will in my opinion stop the gut working like an earthworm no more than I'd expect it to stop a horse breathing.
		
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Actually i agree with notjustforxmas. Horses are not physically and mentally designed to live how we keep them. Some cope but many dont. And define cope. Its not black and white.

Colic, azoturia, laminitis, box walking, weaving, crib biting..... All man made and all caued by innappropriate management.

I think science is hugely valuable but it should be used alongside good old fashioned horse management, which sadly is lacking these days. You need both- one is not sufficient on its own imo.


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## Shilasdair (20 December 2010)

I see no scientific evidence here from any of you, including the OP.
S


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## 1stclassalan (20 December 2010)

smokeybabes said:



			Impaction can be caused by a lack of water and dehydration. In order for things to move through the gut they need to be soft and contain a certain amount of water.
		
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You can prove that scientifically can you? Remember that science requires demonstration by repeatable experiment.


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## 1stclassalan (20 December 2010)

Shilasdair said:



			I see no scientific evidence here from any of you, including the OP.
S 

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Ah, my original post needs no scientific evidence - it calls for it! I merely pointed out that there were two 180 degree conflicts reported and that there must be an answer that is correct based on a little more than conjecture.

It's quite obvious that horses have evolved into a migratory herd animal that necessarily has to move large distances often eating on the move - I would contend that the animal's gut had the same trouble dealing with all that movement as with standing still - the same for having a lot of water or the lack of it but I have no evidence - does anybody? 

If you have ever seen a video of a fertilised egg begin to cell divide, one of the first recognisable features is a tube forming that becomes the gut and spinal column - thus the workings of this feature are set very early on and continue even while the whole animal might be under considerable stress. 

As an aside too, you cannot be sure as to how the gut is working by how often poo drops - cars come out of the factory at so many a minute but that's not how long it takes to make one. I studied my mare intently after giving her the old blue 100's & 1000's worming potion - the little bits took 24 hours to start appearing and 96 to completely clear - despite her doing the regulation ten piles a day.

During her seventeen years with me she had colic twice, once really badly back in the days when sufferers were tubed with cooking oil, I feared for her and stayed with her for 24 hours till all was well, on either occasion she had no different treatment, no differing food, good access to water etc., etc.


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## 3DE (20 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			You can prove that scientifically can you? Remember that science requires demonstration by repeatable experiment.
		
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How about the fact that if you are dehydrated you get constipated. Science doesn't require repeatable demonstration by experiment - just repeatable demonstration


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## 1stclassalan (20 December 2010)

Christmas_Crackers said:



			How about the fact that if you are dehydrated you get constipated. Science doesn't require repeatable demonstration by experiment - just repeatable demonstration 

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Hmmm,,, I feel you have an agenda..... but I'll play along.

I dispute that dehydration and constipation are that closely linked - what evidence can you bring?

Then again, what constitutes dehydration ? 

Your last statement is self defeating.


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## KitKat_89 (20 December 2010)

If scientific evidence is what you want, may I point you in the direction of GoogleScholar, Science Direct, PubMed, and many other academic search engines.

As I am bored, I have had a little browse myself:

Risk factors for equine acute abdominal disease (colic) : Results from a multi-center case-control study
Mathew J. Reeves, MO D. Salman, Gary Smith
Preventive Veterinary Medicine 26 (1996) 285-301

EQUINE VETERINARY JOURNAL
Equine vet. J. (1997) 29 (6) 454-458
Prospective study of equine colic risk factors
MARY K. TINKER', N. A. WHITE, P. LESSARDS, C. D. THATCHER, K. D. PELZER, BETTY DAVlS and D. K. CARMELS

Case control study to investigate risk factors for impaction colic in donkeys in the UK
Preventive Veterinary Medicine
Volume 92, Issue 3, 15 November 2009, Pages 179-187 
Ruth Cox, Faith Burden, Lee Gosden, Christopher Proudman, Andrew Trawford and Gina Pinchbeck

All of the above, and many others cite limited, or no access to water (even for short periods of an hour or two) as risk factors for colic.

This doesn't mean access to water is the only risk factor, nor that all horses who go without water for a time will get colic.

If common sense isn't enough to convince you, how does that little list do? If you disagree with the statments made, go research evidence to support your argument! 

(For anyone annoyed by my lack of structured referancing - please forgive my laziness of just c/p-ing)


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## 3DE (20 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			I dispute that dehydration and constipation are that closely linked - what evidence can you bring?
		
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As dehydration occur the large bowel reabsorbs more water thus causing the bolus to become more firm. The decrease in fluid balance causes an increase in the haematocrit of the red cells thus making the blood more 'sticky' (for want of a better layman's term). The increased stickiness of the blood reduces the blood supply to the bowel thus reducing the removal of toxins. In addition to this reduced blood flow also caused the mucosa to decrease production of mucus, further decreasing lubrication. 

So a hard mass, little lubrication and a buildup of toxins can result in constipation (impaction colic in horses) and in worse case scenarios perforation of the duodenum and toxic shock.

What evidence can you bring to the discussion disproving that constipation/impaction colic isn't linked to dehydration. I can prove my point, can you prove yours? It's no good claiming I have an agenda without proving evidence to support your own point of view. After all, you raised the topic.

My qualifications are the following BSc Hons in Biomedical Sciences specialising in cellular pathology and haematology - degree project was development of a novel stain for the presence of H.pylori in the gastric mucosa, MSc in Biomedical Sciences specialising in Transfusion Science - masters project was influence of fluid balance, particularly over-fluidisation and dehydration in the requirement of blood transfusion. I currently work as Blood Bank Manager and participate in a multidisciplinary on call service offering Haematology, Chemistry, Coagulation, Trnasfusion and Microbiology testing and also offering technical and clinical advice.

I base my statements on personal experience and 18 years of training/practice in my field. What do you base your statements on?


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## 3DE (20 December 2010)

KitKat_89 said:



			This doesn't mean access to water is the only risk factor, nor that all horses who go without water for a time will get colic.
		
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Agreed - another risk factor is poor mobility. Decreased mobility decreased the movement through the bowel. In my experience in hoomans, the elderly are particularly at risk of severe constipation, and the complications involved with it, as they tend to have limited mobility and decreased fluid intake.

Here's one for you - myself and OH have same diet. I poo twice per day, and have lovely soft motions. He poos twice per week and frequently makes himself bleed. The only difference is that I am more active than him and also he drinks more coffee and alcohol than me. Since he has taken on a new , more active job he has started drinking a lot of squash (he gets thirsty because of the hard work) and of course moving about more. Suddenly our bowel movements are comparable 

If anyone on here ever meets OH, please don't tell him I have been discussing his bowel habits on the interweb


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## 3DE (20 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			Your last statement is self defeating.
		
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It isn't  I was pointing out that something can be proved by reproducibility invivo. There is no need to provide experimental evidence if nature already provides that evidence - you stated "Remember that science requires demonstration by repeatable experiment". I was simply pointing out that you were not completely on the mark there...

I for one am for science over old wives tales any day. But some old wives tales can be proven to have some substance. Except for the one about sitting on a cold wall giving you piles... Mum - that's bull excrement!


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## KitKat_89 (20 December 2010)

C_C your posts need a "like" button 

(and your qualifications shame my ten minutes of googling  )


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## 3DE (20 December 2010)

KitKat_89 said:



			C_C your posts need a "like" button 

(and your qualifications shame my ten minutes of googling  )
		
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I'm not normally one to brag TBH but when asked 'where's your proof?' at least I can state my experience/experiences. I wonder what OP can claim... Or even if that can back up their derogation of my post  My guess is that it will turn into name calling rather than there being any actual scientific basis  

As a scientist, one never asks people of proof (unless our own POV is questioned lol), I would research something myself and gain a better understanding. Sometimes I even change my own POV based on information I have found. Once example is battery hens - the minimum standards of care for battery chickens is better than that of barn chickens and even some free range! I still wouldn't buy battery but now I only buy organic (for the increased welfare rather than the 'organicness') if I do need to buy chicken. For the main I just go in the garden and kill my own.


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## 3DE (20 December 2010)

KitKat_89 said:



			C_C your posts need a "like" button 

(and your qualifications shame my ten minutes of googling  )
		
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Oh and other thank thanks again - I'm too lazy to google  If I don't have personal knowledge I don't get involved lol


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## KitKat_89 (20 December 2010)

Christmas_Crackers said:



			Oh and other thank thanks again - I'm too lazy to google  If I don't have personal knowledge I don't get involved lol
		
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Haha, I was going to keep out of it honest!  As I know nowt about it, but OP's attitude annoyed me greatly. Disputing opinion is one thing, but if you want evidence, and are not willing to accept perfectly sensible comments without it....go and look it up ffs!

You shouldn't claim lack of 'scientific evidence' just because you can't provide any yourself! Grrr

Oh dear -  I seem to have a seasonal case of grumpiness!


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## mystiandsunny (20 December 2010)

According to my vet, a horse not drinking enough can cause compaction.  I'm guessing if she was taught that at vet school, there is a scientific basis behind it.  Her point though was that the horse needs to drink enough over the course of a day, not in a specific period.  Generally, according to her, they'll only not drink enough if water isn't available, or if they're feeling ill.    

The one about frosty grass causing lami - it can.  Want the scientific info?  The grass plant moves around its sugars into the above-ground bit (leaves) to increase the concentration of sugar molecules in the liquid within them, and thus lower the temperature at which ice crystals are likely to form.  If they do form, they destroy the cell walls and cause a lot of damage.

Many other 'old wives tales' are correct, many are not.  Some work but not for the reason given!


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## perfect11s (21 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			Now my old mum is convinced that you can catch a cold waiting at a bus stop - particularly if you've rushed out after washing your hair or had a recent bath but come on ...... this is 2010 not 1710 ..... you wouldn't expect a modern doctor to bleed you to effect a cure.

So why are there reports in last week's H & H about horses having colic problems because they've been kept in during the bad weather with the inference that the lack of movement and restricted water has caused their guts to impact. This report is of course dimetrically opposed but another feature a bit further in that says horses have evolved to do with water when they have to!

As far as I understand, the gut of all mammals works much like an earthworm moves - it is automatic and systematic - just as breathing and heartbeat are. 

It may well be that changes to diet can introduce imbalances in the body chemicals that control that movement but to blandly state that restricted access to water will do it is wrong.

I also have a strong opinion that the idea of a rolling horse twisting a gut is also one of the biggest myths - if the rolling horse has one - it is the cause of the rolling and not the other way about. 

Discuss.
		
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 They say the devil makes work for idle hands , you seem to love  to play devils  advocate  with  your  posts,  I realy loved  the student one   PMSL!!!!....


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## tristar (21 December 2010)

many years ago i caught an awful cold waiting at a bustop, freezing to death, please report back to mom.
i believe its quite true about older people not drinking enough, in fact i might suggest we would all feel a lot better if we drank water regularly throughout the day, i personally drink a glass of water every three hours, and can recommend.
when my horses are indoors due to the weather they have damped hay 5 times a day 7.30   11.30  4.0pm    6.0   9.0 because horses need to eat at regular intervals, this encourages them to drink, i might suggest that fed at less regular intervals could cause them to bolt the hay without sufficient mastication.
my scientific qualifications are, (due to the fact i left school at fifteen, never to return,) watching and observing horses and common sense.


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## 3DE (21 December 2010)

tristar said:



			my scientific qualifications are, (due to the fact i left school at fifteen, never to return,) watching and observing horses and common sense.
		
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The OP doesn't seem to count common sense as worthy  Hence why I posted my quals  I feel a bit big headed but it was just to shut OP up


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## paisley (21 December 2010)

If we're going to dispute the word 'designed' can we consider that the horse is a mongastric hindgut fermentor please?  The essential structure and function of the horse gut indicate what this system is meant to do. You mention that the gut is an early feature of development- well super, but its still going to develop into the digestive system of the species, not what the species might have to cope with.
The bulk of digestions occurs in the hind-gut , which also acts as a resevoir for water. And as very knowledgable people have pointed out, less water simply means that any remaining plant fibre will impact.
The small intestine and stomach do relatively little in terms of equine digestion. And as you have pointed out, the horse is free ranging, and therefore termed a 'trickle feeder' to allow both eating and running away!


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## tristar (22 December 2010)

i also understood that the pelvic flexure? is where it can get impacted, and also that the continous movement of the gut, peristalis, is  dependent to a large extent on the regular amounts of fibre to maintain its action, no to mention the benefit of the hind gut flora, but then i left school at 15 so i could be wrong!


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## TJP (27 December 2010)

On the same vein as there's 'no smoke without fire' I believe there often is a lot of truth in many of the old wives tales.


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## Mike007 (27 December 2010)

What the OP has completely failed to grasp is that there is no contradiction.Restricting fluid intake does cause colic and yes horses have evolved to drink at irregular intervals,but the crucial point is that a horse cannot survive indefinately on restricted water.It must at some point have access to an adequate supply of water to rehydrate. If people want "science" and scientific explanations it might help to learn to read and think a bit more.


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## amandap (27 December 2010)

Notjustforxmas said:



			Because the horse is designed to walk around all day not be stuck in a 12x12 box.
		
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I agree with this. Human's get constipated if they don't move too.  Movement is incredibly important for horses in all sorts of ways, circulation, good muscle and body development, good hoof structure and function, good mental attitude, generating warmth etc. etc. etc.
I may be old but these are not old wives tales I'm afraid. Sorry if it doesn't fit in with what you believe op.

All body systems are influenced by each other. If circulation is reduced everything slows down including peristalsis. Add to that only dry hay,dry feed and there is a recipe for constipation or impaction colic as it's called in horses.


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## amandap (27 December 2010)

amandap said:



			All body systems are influenced by each other. If circulation is reduced everything slows down including peristalsis. Add to that only dry hay,dry feed and there is a recipe for constipation or impaction colic as it's called in horses.
		
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Better just say that 'constipation' (dry matter impaction) isn't the only type of impaction colic.


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## Dancing Queen (27 December 2010)

I think the OP had perhaps been blinded by science! Well Done.

As a scientist myself I find these posts somewhat intriguing.


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## firm (27 December 2010)

I thought I had just read somewhere that it was proved increased movement in horses increased their gut movement?  Maybe I imagined it     Quite often I read things which prove old wives tales and think why did they bother trying to prove that as it seems common sense e.g I was always taught horses react to human fear and recently an experiment in Scandanavia showed horses' heart rates rising when their human handlers' were rising.


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## Serenity087 (27 December 2010)

Wanting to throw in a spanner... as always...

My rabbits were recently operated on and as part of their recovery, I had to ensure they ate.  Now, one of my rabbits stopped eating, which put her at risk of "Gut stasis".

So, I rushed her back to the vets and hit google to see what I was dealing with and if I had done the right things.

Gut stasis, in rabbits, which i BELIEVE to be hind gut fermenters, like horses, is caused by lack of bowel movement causing too much water to be absorbed which causes blockages.

Like colic, gut stasis can be fatal.

Now, I imagine that increased cases of colic in stabled horses is NOT lack of water, rather lack of forage.  Standing all day and night with a couple of haynets is NOT sufficient to stop a horses bowel going into stasis.

Yes, they aren't moving, but whilst a horse is moving in the field, it's generally eating.

I suppose either way, it just shows you need to ensure your horse has 24 hour access to forage and water!!!!


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## 1stclassalan (27 December 2010)

tristar said:



			many years ago i caught an awful cold waiting at a bustop, freezing to death, please report back to mom.
i believe its quite true about older people not drinking enough, in fact i might suggest we would all feel a lot better if we drank water regularly throughout the day, i personally drink a glass of water every three hours, and can recommend.
when my horses are indoors due to the weather they have damped hay 5 times a day 7.30   11.30  4.0pm    6.0   9.0 because horses need to eat at regular intervals, this encourages them to drink, i might suggest that fed at less regular intervals could cause them to bolt the hay without sufficient mastication.
my scientific qualifications are, (due to the fact i left school at fifteen, never to return,) watching and observing horses and common sense.
		
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Observation, proper observation, is the basis of all scientific enquiry - so you are doing well, you don't need to be a professor to do it either. Just an open mind.

Now, it's quite obvious that all us mammals need water - but I'm not really talking about  pleasurable drinking, drinking to make it easier to eat but enquiring about the point where the gut stops working properly without it. I have a gut feeling ( ha,ha ) that it will carry on working ( like an earthworm ) long after the point where we or and animal would be gasping for a drink.


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## 1stclassalan (27 December 2010)

Christmas_Crackers said:



			I base my statements on personal experience and 18 years of training/practice in my field. What do you base your statements on?
		
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Please look again at my original post. This thread concerns two dimetrically opposed articles published in the sam edition of Horse & Hound - one saying that horses need regular access to water and one saying they might have evolved to do without access for long periods. Even taking as certain amount of context into account - both statement can't be right - and this is my only basis for comment. 

It's obvious that horses should be given access to water but it may not be so obvious as to the EXACT reasons why.




			My qualifications are the following BSc Hons in Biomedical Sciences specialising in cellular pathology and haematology - degree project was development of a novel stain for the presence of H.pylori in the gastric mucosa, MSc in Biomedical Sciences specialising in Transfusion Science - masters project was influence of fluid balance, particularly over-fluidisation and dehydration in the requirement of blood transfusion. I currently work as Blood Bank Manager and participate in a multidisciplinary on call service offering Haematology, Chemistry, Coagulation, Trnasfusion and Microbiology testing and also offering technical and clinical advice.
		
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Very interesting - I think the subject needs more work by people such as yourself - preferably before it's published in public magazines. Your work in hydration seem particularly cogent; however; unless things have marched on while I haven't noticed I do believe that it's still fair to state that much of the hydration and transportation fluidity of the bowel remains unknown - even to top flight researchers. 




			As dehydration occur(s).................. the large bowel reabsorbs more water thus causing the bolus to become more firm.
		
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At what point? What's your understanding of clinical dehydration? Don't forget to entirely prove your point ( well, I take it that you now wish to own it? ) at a certain level of dehydration every horse should suffer impaction, colic or display some symptoms - but they don't do they?


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## 1stclassalan (27 December 2010)

firm said:



			I thought I had just read somewhere that it was proved increased movement in horses increased their gut movement?  Maybe I imagined it     Quite often I read things which prove old wives tales and think why did they bother trying to prove that as it seems common sense e.g I was always taught horses react to human fear and recently an experiment in Scandanavia showed horses' heart rates rising when their human handlers' were rising.
		
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Ah.... you are just the sort of person to enquire into anything like this because you have an open mind.

For all animals that walk about or take exercise - most will "do" better if they stay doing the same sort of things so yes, having a horse that might have been well exercised or on grass turnout suddenly brought in and had restricted water may very well develop problems - but what actually caused it? There has to be a definative answer.  

On your point about fear: if a human cries out in fear or panic - it will usually produce a response in most animals. I'm not sure if this could be demonstrated down to the level of heartbeat (on its own ) as how does this communicate to the animal? Some have better hearing than us etc., etc. In my experience, I'd say that horses can definately SMELL fear - I'm sure everyone reading this has had their mount sniff a pile of droppings and then show signs of distress or even go beserk. 

What I am interested in pointing out here is, in as much as there are vectors for catching colds & disease - there are automatic processes inside your own and animal bodies which will not change until death or very near it - and I think the operation of the gut is one of them.


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## 3DE (27 December 2010)

1stclassalan - you say a lot but don't actually say anything of value...


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## Mike007 (27 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			What I am interested in pointing out here is, in as much as there are vectors for catching colds & disease - there are automatic processes inside your own and animal bodies which will not change until death or very near it - and I think the operation of the gut is one of them.
		
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Clearly the OP has absolutely no idea how the equine digestive system functions and I strongly suspect it is pointless trying to explain either.


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## amandap (27 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			At what point? What's your understanding of clinical dehydration? Don't forget to entirely prove your point ( well, I take it that you now wish to own it? ) at a certain level of dehydration every horse should suffer impaction, colic or display some symptoms - but they don't do they?
		
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Clinical dehydration and reabsorbtion of water in the large intestine are not the same thing at all in my (erm non scientific) understanding. Clinical dehydration is when the water level in the blood stream and all body tissues drops.
I would expect a clinically dehydrated horse to be constipated but that may be not the major issue and should resolve with rehydration and possibly a bowel stimulant.

If peristalsis is slowed, for whatever reason, then as someone pointed out earlier the 'matter' is around in the large intestine longer so more water will be reabsorbed causing poos to be harder. Conversly if a horse has speeded up peristalsis, diarrhoea due to salmonella for example, then the 'matter' is passed quickly through the large intestine and so less water is reabsorbed causing runny poos and if severe and prolonged clinical dehydration.

With all these scientists around I hope my basic understanding is correct. It is of course grossly simplified as there are other factors such as sodium and potassium levels etc. involved.


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## 3DE (27 December 2010)

amandap said:



			Clinical dehydration and reabsorbtion of water in the large intestine are not the same thing at all in my (erm non scientific) understanding. Clinical dehydration is when the water level in the blood stream and all body tissues drops.
I would expect a clinically dehydrated horse to be constipated but that may be not the major issue and should resolve with rehydration and possibly a bowel stimulant.

If peristalsis is slowed, for whatever reason, then as someone pointed out earlier the 'matter' is around in the large intestine longer so more water will be reabsorbed causing poos to be harder. Conversly if a horse has speeded up peristalsis, diarrhoea due to salmonella for example, then the 'matter' is passed quickly through the large intestine and so less water is reabsorbed causing runny poos and if severe and prolonged clinical dehydration.

With all these scientists around I hope my basic understanding is correct. It is of course grossly simplified as there are other factors such as sodium and potassium levels etc. involved.
		
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Amandap - that makes perfect sense  Let's hope the OP understands your wording of it. I've given up now lol. Comes across as someone who wants to question everyone  but with little understanding themselves


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## amandap (27 December 2010)

Christmas_Crackers said:



			Amandap - that makes perfect sense 

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Phew!

Peristalsis does not go on at the same speed regardless of what is happening in the rest of the body. It may be controlled mainly by the autonomic nervous system but it is still inflenced by the body as a whole, it is not a separate entity chugging along no matter what.


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## 3DE (27 December 2010)

amandap said:



			Phew!

Peristalsis does not go on at the same speed regardless of what is happening in the rest of the body. It may be controlled mainly by the autonomic nervous system but it is still inflenced by the body as a whole, it is not a separate entity chugging along no matter what. 

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I think that was the point where the OP had got lost... Hopefully they will 'get' it now


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## amandap (27 December 2010)

Op has got me wondering if worms get constipated now!


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## intouch (27 December 2010)

The only reason it's an old wives tale is that science hasn't managed to prove it yet!  THere's a lot to be said for old wives.


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## firm (28 December 2010)

OP In the experiment about the raised heartbeat I think what they did was to get a number of people to each walk a horse down a line of people holding brollies etc. They did it several times and on the final time, the people walking the horses were told the people they were walking passed would raise umbrellas, shout etc ( They didn't though) The people leading the horses, their heartrates increased in anticipation as they approached the line of people and each horse's heart rate increased as well


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## amandap (28 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			Now my old mum is convinced that you can catch a cold waiting at a bus stop - particularly if you've rushed out after washing your hair or had a recent bath but come on ...... this is 2010 not 1710 ..... you wouldn't expect a modern doctor to bleed you to effect a cure.
		
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Just to go right back to your first post. 
I expect catching a cold waiting for a bus really depends on who else is in the queue and if they sneeze their cold germs on you or not!  Not to forget whether it's a cold virus you have been previously exposed to or not. 

Tbh mixing with strangers is a good way to get colds and other air bourne infections as well as infections transmitted on hands. Think of how many people aquire infections when they go into Hospital.
I used to get colds etc. whenever I moved jobs, was that mixing with a different crowd carrying different bugs?


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## 3DE (28 December 2010)

amandap said:



			Just to go right back to your first post. 
I expect catching a cold waiting for a bus really depends on who else is in the queue and if they sneeze their cold germs on you or not!  Not to forget whether it's a cold virus you have been previously exposed to or not. 

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Yeah, you're more likely to get in on the bus afterwards...

If you think about it your nose does run in cold weather though... Not quite a cold though.


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## Holly Hocks (28 December 2010)

Well getting back to the bit about water consumption, I recently brought my horse back from a stay in horse hospital for a leg operation and she is on box rest.  Professor told me to feed her lots of sloppy mashes and make sure she drinks plenty to prevent colic......that's the only evidence I need - veterinary advice!


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## 1stclassalan (28 December 2010)

amandap said:



			Just to go right back to your first post. 
I expect catching a cold waiting for a bus really depends on who else is in the queue and if they sneeze their cold germs on you or not!  Not to forget whether it's a cold virus you have been previously exposed to or not. 

Tbh mixing with strangers is a good way to get colds and other air bourne infections as well as infections transmitted on hands. Think of how many people aquire infections when they go into Hospital.
I used to get colds etc. whenever I moved jobs, was that mixing with a different crowd carrying different bugs? 

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Your point about contracting bugs at the bus stop from surfaces or other people is the science behind the old wive's tale's - though my mother actually thought ( and still prefers to believe it ) that it's getting physically cold out in the open which IS THE cause. Remember "malaria" ( it means "bad air") was so named because the ancient ones observed that folks who lived around stinking bogs were more likely to come down with it - the idea it was caused by bugs carried inside mosquitos took centuries to catch on( ha,ha.)

The thing is - we should all know better now - in 2011. Indeed, your own professed admirable qualifications show you to be well educated in such things and more than that - to realise that many of these problems are like Russian Dolls - you undo one to find another inside. I like to think that I will always possess the kind of mind that won't be satisfied until I find that last one.


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## 1stclassalan (28 December 2010)

firm said:



			OP In the experiment about the raised heartbeat I think what they did was to get a number of people to each walk a horse down a line of people holding brollies etc. They did it several times and on the final time, the people walking the horses were told the people they were walking passed would raise umbrellas, shout etc ( They didn't though) The people leading the horses, their heartrates increased in anticipation as they approached the line of people and each horse's heart rate increased as well 

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Hmmmm..... that doesn't sound like much of a SCIENTIFIC experiment to me. 

As I posted - it's my conjecture that horses obtain much information by smell so to test that you'd have to block their noses - causing stress! They also take visual signs so you'd have to blindfold them etc., etc., this would be to isolate just the stress vector you want to identify - pretty difficult in a human that you could talk to let alone an animal!


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## 1stclassalan (28 December 2010)

amandap said:



			Phew!

Peristalsis does not go on at the same speed regardless of what is happening in the rest of the body.
		
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Do you KNOW that for sure? Does anyone?




			It may be controlled
		
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Ah, the infamous quote from Patrick Moore - "well, we just don't know."




			mainly by the autonomic nervous system but it is still inflenced by the body as a whole, it is not a separate entity chugging along no matter what. 

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The whole reason for naming certain bodily functions "autonomic" is because they do just chug along no matter what. Your heart tissue will go on beating ( for a while ) even if ripped from your body, oxygen will still be passed to the blood by your lungs and the instructions fed to these various parts are very deeply founded and about which we KNOW very little.


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## 3DE (28 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			Your heart tissue will go on beating ( for a while ) even if ripped from your body, oxygen will still be passed to the blood by your lungs and the instructions fed to these various parts are very deeply founded and...
		
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Actually it wont - if the AV node is ripped from it's electronic stimulus ie the nerves, it stops beating



1stclassalan said:



			...about which we KNOW very little.
		
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Actually we seem to know rather a lot about it - it's you that doesn't


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## 1stclassalan (28 December 2010)

Christmas_Crackers said:



			Actually it wont - if the AV node is ripped from it's electronic stimulus ie the nerves, it stops beating
		
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Ah - at last - you've proffered a scientific reason. Yes, I agree - you could feed the entire body through a mincer that will stop everything fairly convincingly too! The fact that those tissues will continue responding to the nerve pulse is evidence for what I'm saying rather than tuther way about.




			Actually we seem to know rather a lot about it - it's you that doesn't 

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You and I obviously have differing opinions as to what constitutes "a lot." Don't take my word for it - have a Google, dive into "Nature" or Scientific American and you will see that there's far more to learn than what been learnt - and sometimes it's complicated by having to "unlearn" some favourites first.


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## 3DE (28 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			You and I obviously have differing opinions as to what constitutes "a lot." Don't take my word for it - have a Google, dive into "Nature" or Scientific American and you will see that there's far more to learn than what been learnt - and sometimes it's complicated by having to "unlearn" some favourites first.
		
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I wouldn't consider Google or Nature particularly valid sources of information. I only read peer reviewed journals. Anything that hasn't been peer reviewed is just speculation. Next you will start quoting Wiki lol


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## amandap (28 December 2010)

There is much we don't 'know' and I imagine (and rather hope tbh) that we will never know it all.

Being now an old giffer, what I have learned is don't close your mind to anything and don't dismiss 'intuition' or even old wives tales out of hand. I believe everything is connected in one way or another and more and more evidence for the power of the mind and even heart is being uncovered.

They've recently grown heart cells from stem cells and had them beating in a petri dish haven't they? Yes systems/organs can function alone in the right environment but generally they are attached to living complex organisms. Chemicals, electro magnetic influences affect all tissues. If autonomic systems were completely autonomous there would never be heart problems or gut disturbances or even death surely? 

I can't get on your wave length I'm afraid op. I find it very difficult to think of anything in isolation because that isn't how it is in my view.


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## 1stclassalan (28 December 2010)

Christmas_Crackers said:



			I wouldn't consider Google or Nature particularly valid sources of information. I only read peer reviewed journals. Anything that hasn't been peer reviewed is just speculation. Next you will start quoting Wiki lol
		
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I notice you left out Scientific American. Also consider just what "peer reviewed" means - I could quote all my threads here as peer reviewed by you without you agreeing with any of them. You are free to challenge or review anything on Wiki - try doing that in The Lancet.

All sources of information are valid - the more the merrier.


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## 1stclassalan (28 December 2010)

amandap said:



			There is much we don't 'know' and I imagine (and rather hope tbh) that we will never know it all........... If autonomic systems were completely autonomous there would never be heart problems or gut disturbances or even death surely?
		
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Well, I think you have your heart in the right place. 

There are vast amounts we don't know - but it's extremely interesting finding out - and you do that only by having an open mind.

Crackers has pointed out that the heart tissue stops beating without electric impulse - the controlling influence and no doubt there is an equal controlling influence over that pulse within the brain's timing mechanism etc., etc., so until we know what the controls over the gut are, we will never sure as to what directly causes it to misfunction - to simply say - lack of water isn't good enough and may not even be true.

If the other article is to be believed, we have to consider some stress dysfunction to be good in the sense of the Evolution of Species by Natural Selection - because now we know what Darwin didn't ( D.N.A.) controls the spacial parameters of all life so that mutations of the double helix in one generation accounts for all changes in future.


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## 3DE (28 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			I notice you left out Scientific American. Also consider just what "peer reviewed" means - I could quote all my threads here as peer reviewed by you without you agreeing with any of them. You are free to challenge or review anything on Wiki - try doing that in The Lancet.
		
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Peer reviewed means a piece of research has been reproduced and challenged and proven, or for that matter dispoven. There is a scale of 'value' with a single article having the least scientific value and a multi centre comparison having the most. 

Scientific American is a magazine, not a journal. The lancet publishes journals - they have no say on what the research involved, they merely deem whether it can grace their pages. And FWIW you can challenge articles in the Lancet - that is what the letters in response pages are for. If you query something, the query itself goes down in the annals of history.

As I said before, a single article in a single journal (so therefor the Lancet itself) has less value than say a study done based on multicentre comparisons using the Cochrane database.

I hope I have educated you a little bit there OP - you talk about scientific matter but only really use laymans terms which shows your lack of in-depth knowledge.

Another FWIW - mutations in DNA frequently don't cause change. A lot of DNA is 'junk' with actually helps prevent this. Also usually several genes can code for the same protein meaning that if one is knocked out, you can still produce the protein 

Also you state that the exact function of the control of the gut isn't known - well it is. There are sensory neurones (intrinsic primary afferent neurones), motor neurones, and interneurones controlling positive and negative feedback mechanisms. All in all there are over 20 neurones controlling gastric function. The signals within these neurones are controlled by the Sodium/potassium balance. In dehydration the concentration of these increase causing misfiring or non-firing of the neurones.

If you are going to state that something isn't known, please provide evidence as we are likely to refute your claim and make you look foolish lol

Edit - read back you last paragraph - it makes no sense whatsoever. In the words of Shakespeare "It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing". I'm not actually calling you an idiot as clearly you have a thirst for knowledge but you current level of understanding means you are a bit out of your depth making comments like you do.


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## amandap (28 December 2010)

I'm pleased to know my heart is in the right place!  Hope my pacemaker doesn't give out.


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## firm (28 December 2010)

Sorry OP it was not scientific enough for you LOL  I was just using it as an example of where something common sense seems too obvious to need to be proved.   You can check it out more here
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5871172/horses_become_nervous_when_riders_are.html 

or read the whole thing if you subscribe to Pubmed  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19394879


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## tristar (29 December 2010)

i did infact catch the afore mentioned cold at bus stop without being sneezed on, and subsequently have caught many a cold from just getting too cold or wet therefore i belie.
ve it is perfectly possible to have two kinds of cold, one from chilling and another by virus.
i have an ancient horse book, 18 th century, which my vet said i should throw in the bin, but did not and continue to read, wherein it states that colic in horses is a largely preventable ailment, bearing in mind they had not the drugs and ops in those days it would appear that colic was avoided by good management on the whole.
this to my mind is scientifically important, due to the large horse population of actual working horses exisisting at that time, as opposed to a staged experiment, bearing in mind that this covers a large cross section of the working horse world, does this mean they were more knowlegeable? looking at some modern practices and trends in horse feeding i would suggest that they were.


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## firm (30 December 2010)

Tristar, you are so right about old horse books. The detail in mine in about the importance of correct ventilation in stabling for instance. 
You also got me thinking about the cold and colds so I googled it and OP I hate to tell you but your Mum might be right LOL according to Cardiff Cold Centre

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4433496.stm


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## amandap (30 December 2010)

lol 
I think our intuition is vastly underated personally. I've been caught out with 'old wives tales' before so I try my hardest never to dismiss them out of hand. 

I'm another believer that colic is largely preventable along with quite a few other common conditions horses get and are often pts for.  Nature knows what she is doing and I think we humans are failing if we continue to insist we know better.


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## tristar (30 December 2010)

talking to an equine nutritionist or whatever you call them, he was concerned about the diet some horses are receiving, he said and i quote, 'poor horses';
talking to an eminent veterinery surgeon in deauville, who looks after horse worth millions, she was concerned about the way we are keeping horses and the effects on their health, and she said that when she sees colic it always seems to be on the same farms.


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## 1stclassalan (30 December 2010)

My dear Crackers - I see that Christmas has done very little to cheer thee! I delight in your Shakespearian quote even though its made against me - you don't see much of that on the Interweb!



			I hope I have educated you a little bit there OP - you talk about scientific matter but only really use laymans terms which shows your lack of in-depth knowledge.
		
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Oh! Thou doest speak sharper than a serpent's tongue. Thankfully, I have the capacity to learn something every day and start off with an open mind. As for writing in simplistic terms - it would hardly be any good getting too complicated here now would it? I probably don't have the direct involvement in medical matters that you seem to have and I have also admitted that I am probably twice the age of most here and thus my education is of similar vintage;however; my No.2 daughter had a super modern education at my expense, gained a First Class Honours Degree in medicine and is now in charge of a vast staff - so I can always ask for a second opinion.     




			- mutations in DNA frequently don't cause change. A lot of DNA is 'junk' with actually helps prevent this.
		
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No doubt you belong to the "Jurassic Park" clique when it come to constructing a genome then eh? Substitute a load of frog D.N.A. to suppliment the bits of dinosaur that couldn't be retrieved - don't worry - no one will notice. 

Let me state something in my usual simplistic layman's terms - it's all there doing something - the fact that you can't pin it down - just means you don't know!




			If you are going to state that something isn't known, please provide evidence as we are likely to refute your claim and make you look foolish lol
		
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Well, at the risk of annoying you even more ( I think I probably do that just by breathing ) I'd say that I don't have to - because you are doing it for me over and over. No one knows it all - not even you. 





			Edit - read back you last paragraph - it makes no sense whatsoever.
		
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 Yours doesn't look too good to me either. I think your ire and angst gets the better of your keyboard skills when you read my posts.


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## paisley (30 December 2010)

Hmm- I'm going to assume you're paraphrasing a bit of Shakesphere, otherwise I think the quote should be "How sharper than a serpents tooth it is to have a thankless child!
Which rather ironically my mother used to quote to me, feckless infant that I was.


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## paisley (30 December 2010)

I&#8217;ve not been able to read the articles you originally quoted and have an exciting bout of flu on the go so some of my thinking might be a bit woolly. The main point you are discussing is that either horses need regular access to water or they don&#8217;t? And that reduced water intake and restricted movement are not instant triggers for colic, as supposedly the horse can survive for long periods without water.

All right, the horse can hold a reasonable amount of fluid in its hindgut which facilitates the maintenence of fluid levels. But this depends on the access to pasture, diet, etc.  Can we also agree that there a quite a few potential causes of colic? Because if we could pinpoint one single cause, it would be like curing the common cold.  

But a large proportion of a horse&#8217;s bodyweight is made up from water, so is it fair to say that water is probably quite important? And given the weather we have had, a change in routine, access to water and damp grass could reduce the fluid intake sufficiently to for some horses to develop colic. 

I raised my concerns that a horse I was grooming for an event had not drunk enough after XC. He was bright, had electrolytes, normal temperature and seemed fine. He developed impaction colic in the small hours. After fluid therapy he made a full recovery.

There is a heinous practice of removing water from horses so they will be tired from dehydration and produce a reasonable dressage test. (And quite a lot of people will dispute that anyone would do this). How the heck do horses manage to re-hydrate sufficiently for XC and not get colic?  I&#8217;m theorising that sufficient exercise and in hand grazing keeps them going. 

I studied fluid movement in 1 and 3 day horses as my under-graduate dissertation. Obviously it&#8217;s not published data, and therefore not scientifically valid, but any significant fluid loss was replaced in hours. Of course this may also just be movement of fluid from the bowel to the blood.  Incidentally, the horse that showed the least fluid movement was fed damped hay. 

It&#8217;s just to point out that whilst horses can go without water, it&#8217;s not an ideal. 

Frog-marching horses round and round used to be the remedy for colic till the vet arrived, though I wouldn&#8217;t do it now.  I have put horses that looked a bit &#8216;grumbly&#8217; in school to have a quiet (!) walk round on their own, and it very often works. So in my observation, movement has prevented a bout of colic in some horses 

I know you want an answer that picks one option but it&#8217;s not going to happen. Read enough scientific journals and someone always contradicts another&#8217;s theory &#8211; as they should.  Otherwise we might as well believe in a beardy man who lives in a cloud.

I have been clinically dehydrated due to a GI problem (and the small matter of vomiting on average 4-6 times a day over a three month period). And I&#8217;m defining clinical dehydration as: a nurse being unable to take a blood sample due to the lack of fluid in my blood, I couldn&#8217;t breathe when I stood up and on one memorable occasion after I had managed to stagger to the door, lost my vision for about 2 minutes.  Hope that&#8217;s sufficient evidence for you.

I managed until my operation by tiny sips of water with electrolytes, but there were occasionally 24 hour periods when nothing stayed down.  I&#8217;m clearly not evolved to go without water but it seems it&#8217;s possible! 

So would it be fair to say that horses need regular access to some form of fluid (grass, damped hay or water) in order to keep their natural reservoir of water at sufficient levels to keep then physiologically well?  
It seems the articles are simply encouraging good animal husbandry whilst pointing out the animals capabilities.  You clearly have enough intelligence to evaluate each and reach your own conclusions. 

And now I&#8217;m off to cough up a lung.


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## 1stclassalan (31 December 2010)

paisley said:



			Hmm- I'm going to assume you're paraphrasing a bit of Shakesphere, otherwise I think the quote should be "How sharper than a serpents tooth it is to have a thankless child!
Which rather ironically my mother used to quote to me, feckless infant that I was.
		
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Yes, I do quite a bit of paraphrasing and expect folk to catch on. Shakespeare probably nicked this saying from a version of the Bible - so it goes back a long way. It's the sort of thing parents love to say to their children to add weight to an otherwise pointless arguement!


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## 1stclassalan (31 December 2010)

Paisley - great post and far better than some folk on here who've just wanted to wave their credentials in the air!

I too have walked a potential colic about in the wee small hours waiting for the Vet - it was the thing to do back then - an Old Wive's Tale. For that matter many herds of cows had at least one poor old moo with no tail back then - the herdsman would cut the thing off without anesthetic to make her get up when gripped by milk fever! Because it sometimes worked in mild cases the practise spread - I expect there's still a few backwoods farmers believing in it along with the beardy man in the sky ( love that.)

I still maintain that both articles can't be right but perhaps they can both have a modicum of truth - natural selection is brought about by stress - because all animals perfectly suited to their ecological niche - stays there. Nature is cruel so horse dying from various restricted water problems would only serve to sort out all the individuals that could stand it - their progeny would develop more and more like a camel. Equally, if conditions promoting the camel attributes changed the future animals would change in response.

However, I'm still interested in finding out the EXACT causes which I am confident are not discovered yet.


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## paisley (31 December 2010)

I have to confess to plaigarising Dara O'Brian on the beardy man quote! - but he has some very good points on the way science is perceived in the media and general public, something science can suffer very badly from.


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## 1stclassalan (31 December 2010)

paisley said:



			I have to confess to plaigarising Dara O'Brian on the beardy man quote! - but he has some very good points on the way science is perceived in the media and general public, something science can suffer very badly from.
		
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Ah, he is quite a clever chap - in fact there are a lot of clever guys out there just making us laugh these days - and if the stuff they bring up makes just one person think a bit more - it has to be good. 

In general, I am constantly amazed at the lack of knowledge and awareness of how things work and the simplist of explanations will phaze most people in the street to the extent that they cannot tell between a proper scientific answer and alchemy - indeed, they don't know that they are different. Don't get me started on Astronomy & Astrology!


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## tristar (31 December 2010)

you can have too much science and not enough alchemy, astrology and how about extra sensory perception, combining the elements such as in normal medicene and complementary therapies seems to be justified, in the same way we may become happier more developed  people by combining the the elements of earth, fire, air  and water within ourselves, while on the subject of water i think horses should have access to WATER AT ALL TIMES.
whoever said , 'there are more things in heaven and earth', than science, had a point, in fact not everything can be scientifically proven, one has to accept that there limitations to human produced scientific evidence, and not to be arrogant in thinking we are the ulitimate intelligence.


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## amandap (31 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			However, I'm still interested in finding out the EXACT causes which I am confident are not discovered yet.
		
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Mmmm, well you might be asking for the impossible here imo.  You have to take individuals into account and what might cause colic or other problems in one may not in another. Science can be too specific sometimes we have to look holistically imo and understand how horses as a species have evolved  and provide as close to that as we can in our circumstances.
Taking a supposed scientific fact and then applying it to all living beings (horses in this case) just doesn't work always. Science is constantly changing as new discoveries are made and new ways of thinking evolve so I don't believe it's as simple as science can explain everything.
Just back to feral horses who have to go without water sometimes in drought etc. Is there evidence they don't suffer colic? Also if there's a drought the plants will be more scarce too...
Normally I believe feral horses set off to water in 'good time' if it's a treck of a couple of days... I do not believe this can be used as evidence that horses in captivity can go without water as there are so many other factors which are not in common; diet, movement, stress levels etc. etc. etc.


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## paisley (31 December 2010)

I sincerely wish I had more alchemy in my life! Might help with a few bills soon to be coming my way.

I'm not trying to repeat myself or make discount anything that makes a person feel better but heres the 'Science doesnt know everything' clip from Mr O'Brian. He says it far better than I could ever type it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDYba0m6ztE


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## amandap (31 December 2010)

paisley said:



			I sincerely wish I had more alchemy in my life! Might help with a few bills soon to be coming my way.
		
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LOL! Apply 'modern' science and you'll be fine! Don't forget hard work and 'luck' into the equation though.  
Seriously, I always seem to end up in these sorts of discussions being seen as anti science. This is not true. Science is only as 'good' and 'pure' as the Scientists doing it, I think many forget the insentives that drive some Scientists, their results and their interpretations. Cultural beliefs also colour thinking and understanding.


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## paisley (31 December 2010)

Oh absolutely agree, science has to stand or fall on nothing but facts. This is why it has to always criticise and question itself. 
Unfortunately this is why people grumble about the contradictions in science. 

I only have to look to my father who stoutly maintains that 'scientists have never proved a link between smoking and cancer'. And when I open a window ( as passive inhalation of some 40-60 cigarettes is my least favourite thing) that 'fresh air is the worst thing for my lungs!'

Anyway, we might have gone off track slightly!


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## KitKat_89 (31 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			No doubt you belong to the "Jurassic Park" clique when it come to constructing a genome then eh? Substitute a load of frog D.N.A. to suppliment the bits of dinosaur that couldn't be retrieved - don't worry - no one will notice.
		
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Wah? 

What C_C posted was perfectly accurate in the 'laymans terms' you are so fond of. Swap 'junk' for 'non-coding DNA' perhaps? Or if you still dont get it go and ask your daughter to explain that section of the post to you?

*headdesk* 

As I have previously suggested, if you want answers - go do the research and come to your own conclusions about which article you see as most accurate based on what you have read.


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## AndySpooner (31 December 2010)

The problem with relying on just science, is that science is evolving, just like everything else. By relying on the science of 'where we are up to now' often causes more problems than we realize.

For example, in the early 70's it was accepted that if you put high levels of nitrogen on grassland it grew more grass, excellent for the dairy industry, of which I was a part. All scienifically proven, both by the fertilizer(chemical) scientists and the nutritionalists.

Therefore, thousands of tons of nitrogen fertilizer was spread on thousands of acres of grassland.

Fast forward a few years and thousands of babies are turning blue all over the place.

Up pops another set of science saying too much nitrogen poisons the water courses.

I do remember an old man telling me in 1976, (the long hot summer), 'you're going to poison everything with all these chemicals.' Of course we told him he was just a daft old bugger.


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## Rueysmum (1 January 2011)

It does happen.  Back in 1989 a pony next to mine had to be put down due to colic caused by immobilisation brought about by prolonged box rest due to emphysema.


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## finnywinny (2 January 2011)

Christmas_Crackers said:



			As above - dehydration means that the gut reabsorbs more water making the food bolus harder and more prone to impaction. Also being stuck in a 12x12 and not able to move slows down the movement even further - moving around actually aids movement of food through the gut. Have you ever noticed that after a long walk or swim you often need a poo? Lack of exercise is a huge cause of human constipation...
		
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Yes - the same way we can get all "bunged up" after a long haul flight, all cramped and squashed...


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## Starbucks (2 January 2011)

Haven't read the whole thing, but OP keeps talking about natural selection, don't really understand how the horses we have in our stables today have come about via natural selection?


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## amandap (3 January 2011)

Starbucks said:



			Haven't read the whole thing, but OP keeps talking about natural selection, don't really understand how the horses we have in our stables today have come about via natural selection?
		
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They are all the same species and although we might of tweaked some characteristics they are all still Equus Callabus and the influence we have had on breeding has not changed them essentially.

The belief that modern domestic horses are somehow different to wild/feral horses is imo one cause of problems for our horses.


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