# Cheshire Hunt this weekend



## lar (27 February 2017)

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...furious-residents-say-pack-foxhounds-12660640

I'd like to think there is another side to this story but it doesn't at first sight appear to be doing Hunt supporters any favours.


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## Tiddlypom (27 February 2017)

It's actually the Cheshire Forest, rather than the Cheshire Hunt (who also got into a spot of bother of their own recently near Beeston).

It's not great publicity, is it.


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## ester (27 February 2017)

Obviously it shouldn't have happened, but it is very DM style reporting isn't it, just lacking a few house prices. The person who really had cause for concern (the farmer with the pregnant cows) seems not to have given them the quote they might have wished for.


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## ycbm (27 February 2017)

People need to understand the area to understand the style of reporting and the complaint. Although Pennington's is a farm and a huge livery yard, there is only one patch of fields in the middle of Bramhall, Stockport and Poynton. It is a very, very urban area. The access to the farm itself is a road which appears only to be part of a housing estate, there isn't a clue that there is a farm at the end of it. Hacking is around that housing estate. 

I have no direct experience, and cannot prove the truth or otherwise of it,  but it is 'known' in the area that this hunt routinely hunt fox.


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## Fred66 (27 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			People need to understand the area to understand the style of reporting and the complaint. Although Pennington's is a farm and a huge livery yard, there is only one patch of fields in the middle of Bramhall, Stockport and Poynton. It is a very, very urban area. The access to the farm itself is a road which appears only to be part of a housing estate, there isn't a clue that there is a farm at the end of it. Hacking is around that housing estate. 

I have no direct experience, and cannot prove the truth or otherwise of it,  but it is 'known' in the area that this hunt routinely hunt fox.
		
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Looking at google earth of this area to the west of this lane are fields and rural countryside with this lane being on the outskirts of Macclesfield itself. I would imagine that the hunt were not deliberately hunting into an urban area so IF the report is true and hounds killed a fox on this lane then I would hazard a guess that it was definitely unintentional. Unfortunately however well laid the trail a fox may occasionally cross the laid scent and this can lead to hounds giving chase to the wrong trail. Lets await the outcome of the Police investigation and any potential trial before pre-judging.


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## lar (27 February 2017)

Fred66 said:



			Looking at google earth of this area to the west of this lane are fields and rural countryside with this lane being on the outskirts of Macclesfield itself. I would imagine that the hunt were not deliberately hunting into an urban area so IF the report is true and hounds killed a fox on this lane then I would hazard a guess that it was definitely unintentional. Unfortunately however well laid the trail a fox may occasionally cross the laid scent and this can lead to hounds giving chase to the wrong trail. Lets await the outcome of the Police investigation and any potential trial before pre-judging.
		
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But surely by the time they get into a suburban street the huntsman must be aware that this cannot be the correct trail and can call his hounds off?  There certainly seemed to be at least one hunt servant there on foot when the incident was happening judging from the photos?  Or is there not such close control of hounds as is generally alleged?  

I'm genuinely not trying to cast any aspersions I just would like to understand how this could happen and have a counter argument to the near hysteria I see on fb surrounding it.


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## ester (27 February 2017)

At a guess it was the calling hounds off bit that went wrong. I'd imagine the huntsman was well aware before they hit the street as they passed through other non permission land before that but failed. 

From a very much amateur perspective I have always been very impressed and somewhat surprised at how much control they do have, compared to many people's pet dogs! I've never observed not being able to to call them off/stop them on wrong trails.- by they I don't mean this specific pack though.

What bugs me most about the report is the supposed breaking and entering to retrieve the fox (and presumably hounds) from a private garden and what was done with it afterwards. Tricky given some of the followers but if a mistake has happened I think it should be dealt with in a more open manner.


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## webble (27 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			People need to understand the area to understand the style of reporting and the complaint. Although Pennington's is a farm and a huge livery yard, there is only one patch of fields in the middle of Bramhall, Stockport and Poynton. It is a very, very urban area. The access to the farm itself is a road which appears only to be part of a housing estate, there isn't a clue that there is a farm at the end of it. Hacking is around that housing estate. 

I have no direct experience, and cannot prove the truth or otherwise of it,  but* it is 'known' in the area that this hunt routinely hunt fox*.
		
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Indeed

THis quote from the article surprises me Were all shocked at the blatant disregard for other people and their property - their land, their animals. as I am not shocked in the slightest


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## ycbm (27 February 2017)

Fred66 said:



			Looking at google earth of this area to the west of this lane are fields and rural countryside with this lane being on the outskirts of Macclesfield itself. I would imagine that the hunt were not deliberately hunting into an urban area so IF the report is true and hounds killed a fox on this lane then I would hazard a guess that it was definitely unintentional. Unfortunately however well laid the trail a fox may occasionally cross the laid scent and this can lead to hounds giving chase to the wrong trail. Lets await the outcome of the Police investigation and any potential trial before pre-judging.
		
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You aren't looking far enough. Look on a map instead. There is one tiny patch of farm land to the west, less than 500x500m, across a main road with 200m of housing between it and Penningtons. The area where this happened is entirely surrounded by high density housing. I've no idea how they could have come to be hunting in that area at all, unless they just love traffic, roadworks and semi detached homes. I guess they could have ridden to John Lewis or the local Costa for a coffee just a few minutes away in each direction, though.


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## Dynamo (27 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			People need to understand the area to understand the style of reporting and the complaint. Although Pennington's is a farm and a huge livery yard, there is only one patch of fields in the middle of Bramhall, Stockport and Poynton. It is a very, very urban area. The access to the farm itself is a road which appears only to be part of a housing estate, there isn't a clue that there is a farm at the end of it. Hacking is around that housing estate. 

I have no direct experience, and cannot prove the truth or otherwise of it,  but it is 'known' in the area that this hunt routinely hunt fox.
		
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In which area?   It was nowhere near Pennington's livery yard or the area you mention.  It was Pennington's Lane  that is south of Macclesfield in the Gawsworth area, miles away from Bramhall and much more rural than the area you refer to.   In that area of open farmland between Macclesfield and Congleton, it's perfectly plausible that hounds would run across the scent of a fox.    The Cheshire Forest do not hunt in the Bramhall/Poynton area, which is very urban and is used mainly by the Cheshire Drag.


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## Dynamo (27 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			You aren't looking far enough. Look on a map instead. There is one tiny patch of farm land to the west, less than 500x500m, across a main road with 200m of housing between it and Penningtons. The area where this happened is entirely surrounded by high density housing. I've no idea how they could have come to be hunting in that area at all, unless they just love traffic, roadworks and semi detached homes. I guess they could have ridden to John Lewis or the local Costa for a coffee just a few minutes away in each direction, though.
		
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You have completely the WRONG area.  Look on a map yourself.  Pennington's Lane, Gawsworth, miles and miles from Pennington's Farm, which is on Lytham Drive.  There's no Pennington's Lane in Bramhall.   You're 15 miles in the wrong direction ycbm.


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## ycbm (27 February 2017)

Dynamo said:



			In which area?   It was nowhere near Pennington's livery yard or the area you mention.  It was Pennington's Lane  that is south of Macclesfield in the Gawsworth area, miles away from Bramhall and much more rural than the area you refer to.   In that area of open farmland between Macclesfield and Congleton, it's perfectly plausible that hounds would run across the scent of a fox.    The Cheshire Forest do not hunt in the Bramhall/Poynton area, which is very urban and is used mainly by the Cheshire Drag.
		
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Oops stupid me, I misread it. Sorreee!!

Yup, Penningtons Lane in Gawsworth is indeed bordered by open countryside on the Congleton side. The meet was at the Plough at Eaton, by the picture with the Police in. The road the incident took place in is the outskirts of Macclesfield, and is all houses (as you can see on the photos)   and a small shopping centre. The hounds should have been called off long before going into anyone's garden, surely?


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## Dynamo (27 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			Oops stupid me, I misread it. Sorreee!!
		
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No prob.


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## Dynamo (27 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			Oops stupid me, I misread it. Sorreee!!

Yup, Penningtons Lane in Gawsworth is indeed bordered by open countryside on the Congleton side. The meet was at the Plough at Eaton, by the picture with the Police in. The road the incident took place in is the outskirts of Macclesfield, and is all houses (as you can see on the photos)   and a small shopping centre. The hounds should have been called off long before going into anyone's garden, surely?
		
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Yes, you'd think so, wouldn't you.  I suppose mistakes happen and things sometimes go wrong for all sorts of reasons.  And I suppose for a hound it's a contest between instinct and obedience in which instinct sometimes wins.  And I expect that by the time they got in to sub-urban gardens they'd been across country that the hunt has no access to, causing the staff to have to take a different route, getting further and further away...  You can see how it all unravels.


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## Tiddlypom (27 February 2017)

Penningtons Lane is a mix of urban and rural settings, by the look of it.








I suppose it all hinges on how much effort, if any, was taken to call hounds off once it was realised that they had gone off trail.

All my hunting (including a half day with the Cheshire Forest) was done pre ban, so I do not know the practicalities these days.


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## RunToEarth (27 February 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Penningtons Lane is a mix of urban and rural settings, by the look of it.

I suppose it all hinges on how much effort, if any, was taken to call hounds off once it was realised that they had gone off trail.

All my hunting (including a half day with the Cheshire Forest) was done pre ban, so I do not know the practicalities these days.
		
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Well, hounds came off the laid trail and started speaking and by all accounts the Huntsman tried to call hounds back. It's a massive housing estate and an absolute nightmare to navigate - obviously the huntsman wasn't willing them into a housing estate! Once they were into people's back gardens it was just a big muddle trying to get them back without trespassing and the added aggravation of a hell-ton of antis. I think the report is wildy inaccurate but it is the Evening news.


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## ycbm (27 February 2017)

RunToEarth said:



			Well, hounds came off the laid trail and started speaking and by all accounts the Huntsman tried to call hounds back. It's a massive housing estate and an absolute nightmare to navigate - obviously the huntsman wasn't willing them into a housing estate! Once they were into people's back gardens it was just a big muddle trying to get them back without trespassing and the added aggravation of a hell-ton of antis. I think the report is wildy inaccurate but it is the Evening news.
		
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Which bit do you think is wildly inaccurate? It was emotovely written, but people's emotions were running high in the area, I'm sure.  It reads just like I would imagine a pack of hounds running riot in a housing estate would be.  I've never been in that situation, though hunting in the same area, because the drag pack were always able to call hounds of a fox scent whenever I was out.  Where were the antis?  No mention of them in the report, no sign of them in any of the photos.


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## Tiddlypom (27 February 2017)

Video clip and interviews from from the local BBCtv news station.  

https://www.facebook.com/bbcnorthwesttonight/videos/1437075559656835/


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## ester (27 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			Which bit do you think is wildly inaccurate? It was emotovely written, but people's emotions were running high in the area, I'm sure.  It reads just like I would imagine a pack of hounds running riot in a housing estate would be.  I've never been in that situation, though hunting in the same area, because the drag pack were always able to call hounds of a fox scent whenever I was out.  Where were the antis?  No mention of them in the report, no sign of them in any of the photos.
		
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I rather assume they probably took some of the photos, someone was keen to get them to the sabs fb pages at least though I don't think any group has claimed them (and I think they would if they could!)


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## ycbm (27 February 2017)

ester said:



			I rather assume they probably took some of the photos, someone was keen to get them to the sabs fb pages at least though I don't think any group has claimed them (and I think they would if they could!)
		
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Antis were shown on the local news tonight. Certainly not a hell-ton of them and none of the witnesses mentioned the antis as causing any problems, though it was obvious who they were because their faces were covered.

Is it time for hunts to accept that if they cannot stop their hounds running riot, then they must not hunt within reach of heavily populated areas?  It is, after all, a pastime. I can't imagine any other sport or game players being allowed to cause that much aggravation to a community.

Certainly a very bad PR day for drag and trail hunting.


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## lar (27 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			Antis were shown on the local news tonight. Certainly not a hell-ton of them and none of the witnesses mentioned the antis as causing any problems, though it was obvious who they were because their faces were covered.

Is it time for hunts to accept that if they cannot stop their hounds running riot, then they must not hunt within reach of heavily populated areas?  It is, after all, a pastime. I can't imagine any other sport or game players being allowed to cause that much aggravation to a community.

Certainly a very bad PR day for drag and trail hunting.
		
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The original fb post that I saw about this (Admittedly from a Sab sympathising site) claimed it was the people on quads (assumed to be terrier men) who had their faces covered?


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## Dynamo (27 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			Antis were shown on the local news tonight. Certainly not a hell-ton of them and none of the witnesses mentioned the antis as causing any problems, though it was obvious who they were because their faces were covered.

Is it time for hunts to accept that if they cannot stop their hounds running riot, then they must not hunt within reach of heavily populated areas?  It is, after all, a pastime. I can't imagine any other sport or game players being allowed to cause that much aggravation to a community.

Certainly a very bad PR day for drag and trail hunting.
		
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It does seem bonkers that hunting takes place so close to urban areas; people have every right to be upset.  I mean, regardless of whether you are pro, anti or indifferent, you'd be a bit irked if the local football team ran through your garden, and it's no different really.  If people want to enjoy a sport, any sport, then it should be without invasion of private property or upset to others.  But we live on a very, very crowded island.


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## ycbm (27 February 2017)

lar said:



			The original fb post that I saw about this (Admittedly from a Sab sympathising site) claimed it was the people on quads (assumed to be terrier men) who had their faces covered?
		
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Why would terrier men cover their faces?  Why would they have any terrier men out, it isn't legal to use them?  Sabs follow on ATVs sometimes, I think?


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## Clodagh (27 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			Why would terrier men cover their faces?  Why would they have any terrier men out, it isn't legal to use them?  Sabs follow on ATVs sometimes, I think?
		
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It is legal to use terriers. I have never heard of sabs on ATVs and tbh I am not the most pro hunting person ever any more but most sabs wouldn't know an ATV from a hole in the ground...IMO. 

I totally agree with Dynamo, keep away from built up areas and off private land where you haven't been invited. I wouldn't want 30 odd great big dogs crashing through my garden.


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## lar (27 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			Why would terrier men cover their faces?  Why would they have any terrier men out, it isn't legal to use them?  Sabs follow on ATVs sometimes, I think?
		
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Dunno but why would a sab sympathetic site publish a picture of someone with their face covered and say it was a terrier man if it was actually one of their own?  I've seen a picture of a quad with boxes front and aft that certainly looks like a terrier man vehicle to my admittedly untrained eye.


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## Clodagh (27 February 2017)

You couldn't blame them for covering their faces, many will have had home visits from sabs, and if the sabs set out to intimidate by covering their faces then I don't see why the pro hunt people shouldn't do so as well.


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## ester (27 February 2017)

I don't think there is any reason to disbelieve the sab group on the fact that isn't a sab, dressed in the wrong colour too. If sabs do follow on ATVs (I wasn't aware of any) I shouldn't think they'd have a need for terrier boxes on them, though their claim that the hunt ATVs weren't road registered (which surprised me) doesn't seem to be correct from the pics.


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## Countryman (27 February 2017)

Clearly we can't be sure what happened here. In general however it is very difficult to call hounds off when animal rights extremists are deliberately calling them on, which they have been known to do.


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## ycbm (27 February 2017)

Clodagh said:



			It is legal to use terriers. I have never heard of sabs on ATVs and tbh I am not the most pro hunting person ever any more but most sabs wouldn't know an ATV from a hole in the ground...IMO. 

I totally agree with Dynamo, keep away from built up areas and off private land where you haven't been invited. I wouldn't want 30 odd great big dogs crashing through my garden.
		
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Clodagh what can a terrier man do? Surely they aren't allowed to use the terrier to get a fox out when it's gone to ground if they aren't allowed to deliberately chase it to ground in the first place? With trail hunting,  just can't see why a terrier man would be there. Baffled???


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## Tiddlypom (27 February 2017)

From this angle, it looks like the chap on the quad has his face covered, but there are other pics showing that actually he's just wearing a woolly hat. Funny how the car has its reg plate blurred, but the quad doesn't... The metal boxes with air holes on the parked quad are presumably terrier boxes.


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## ycbm (27 February 2017)

Definitely pictures of faces covered on the local news.


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## ycbm (27 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			Clodagh what can a terrier man do? Surely they aren't allowed to use the terrier to get a fox out when it's gone to ground if they aren't allowed to deliberately chase it to ground in the first place? With trail hunting,  just can't see why a terrier man would be there. Baffled???
		
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I'm answering my own question here. I have quickly read that it is legal to use one terrier to flush to a gun. Why would there be any terriers or terrier men out on a trail hunt?

Surely those boxes are empty and the quads simply being used to support the hunt by fixing broken fences, etc.?


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## Countryman (27 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			Clodagh what can a terrier man do? Surely they aren't allowed to use the terrier to get a fox out when it's gone to ground if they aren't allowed to deliberately chase it to ground in the first place? With trail hunting,  just can't see why a terrier man would be there. Baffled???
		
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Because hunting is banned, foxes can no longer be managed in a selective, natural and humane way. Accordingly many farmers, landowners and gamekeepers will only let the hunt trail hunt on their land if they can arrange pest control -otherwise they don't see the point. Accordingly many hunts have to offer a service to farmers using terriers to flush to a gun. Perfectly legal - but not as selective as hunting with hounds.


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## ester (27 February 2017)

this one?- this is the one they are claiming is terrier man- IME they are mostly just very generous with their gate opening abilities.
I'll put money on that being a sabs arm in black camo too.


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## Countryman (27 February 2017)

If I was being followed, harassed, potentially attacked and threatened by violent animal rights extremists trying to find out where I lived etc I'd consider wearing a mask around them! Remember the very serious violence that has been meted out by the animal rights movement. Essentially urban terrorism.


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## ycbm (27 February 2017)

Countryman said:



			If I was being followed, harassed, potentially attacked and threatened by violent animal rights extremists trying to find out where I lived etc I'd consider wearing a mask around them! Remember the very serious violence that has been meted out by the animal rights movement. Essentially urban terrorism.
		
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They are only sabbing trail meets, aren't they? In the many years I have drag hunted I have never been sabbed. What I don't understand is why they would sab a trail meet if you are not hunting fox illegally?


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## Countryman (27 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			They are only sabbing trail meets, aren't they? In the many years I have drag hunted I have never been sabbed. What I don't understand is why they would sab a trail meet if you are not hunting fox illegally?
		
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Because they don't care about animals- they resent the people involved. This is why bloodhound meets have been sabbed, hunt balls targeted, etc.


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## ycbm (27 February 2017)

Countryman said:



			Because they don't care about animals- they resent the people involved. This is why bloodhound meets have been sabbed, hunt balls targeted, etc.
		
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They have not ever sabbed a bloodhound or drag meet or ball  that I have been at. They believe you are still hunting fox illegally. Why?


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## Countryman (27 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			They have not ever sabbed a bloodhound or drag meet or ball  that I have been at. They believe you are still hunting fox illegally. Why?
		
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I don't think they really believe that, but it is a convenient justification. The law doesn't matter to them. They were doing this long before the ban. Given their treatment of hounds, horses and their fellow man, I struggle to believe they are animal lovers. As I say, many of these people are people-haters, not animal lovers.


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## KautoStar1 (27 February 2017)

I've been sabbed when out with the blood hounds. Bloody idiots don't know the time of day half the time. Neither are they genuine animal lovers.  Most of them are just  rent a mob out for a good kick off. Anti establishment and anti anyone who has something they might have worked hard for and therefore perceived as rich and stuck up.


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## ycbm (28 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			They have not ever sabbed a bloodhound or drag meet or ball  that I have been at. They believe you are still hunting fox illegally. Why?
		
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Countryman said:



			I don't think they really believe that, but it is a convenient justification
		
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If I told you that I asked a member of a big hunt I won't name, not this one, (but I will share it with you if you PM me), why they were routinely sabbed, and his answer, with a laugh was 'because we hunt fox!' and if I told you that I was invited to midweek hunt with with a local hunt (again not this one) and said I could not go if they hunt fox, and that person (now a master of that hunt)  said they did, would you still say that the sabs don't believe you hunt fox illegally?

And as long as one pack in the country still does, and people know it, you are all going to feel the brunt of that, I think.

I am not a sab, I no longer hunt, I don't in any way approve of anything but quiet demonstration, but I do understand why they do it.

I am not suggesting that this hunt was acting illegally on the day. The law is framed so that it is impossible to get a conviction if a scent is deliberately laid so weak as to not keep the hounds on it, and they then pick up fox and follow that. I'm  guessing that's what happened here.


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## ihatework (28 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			They have not ever sabbed a bloodhound or drag meet or ball  that I have been at. They believe you are still hunting fox illegally. Why?
		
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Many years ago sabs poured concrete down the toilets of the pub hosting a bloodhound meet. That is how ignorant and stupid some of them are.


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## Countryman (28 February 2017)

ihatework said:



			Many years ago sabs poured concrete down the toilets of the pub hosting a bloodhound meet. That is how ignorant and stupid some of them are.
		
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It's disgraceful and motivated by pure hatred for people. It should be recognised for what it is - totally unlawful and unacceptable urban terrorism.


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## Clodagh (28 February 2017)

It is illegal in England (I don't know about Scotland) to use a terrier to flush a fox, but if you were looking for your trail line near a fox's earth and the hounds marked to ground you can then use a terrier to find the fox under ground so you can dig down to it and shoot it. 
Terrier work is still allowed as fox control would be well nigh impossible if you could not access them underground. It is well regulated.


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## Aleka81 (28 February 2017)

Also as for covering faces, when on a quad I always do....to keep warm!


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