# What your opinion on the breeding crisis in the UK



## RoxyNewstead221 (26 January 2014)

Im currently studying equitation Training and behaviour at duchy college.
I am researching over Breeding in the UK and how Breeding has become unstoppable and horses welfare has been put on the line due to many horses being born with conformational faults or In to a home which are unable to look after them.
Would it be possible to have your views and opinions on this subject and  how this has affected the horse as a whole?


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## Kallibear (26 January 2014)

Start eating horse meat in this country.  Make sure the welfare and transport standards are the same high level as cows, pigs and sheep.

If the horse can be sold for meat, it gives the animal value.  Things with value are looked after better.  And it would give an outlet for all the lower end over bred horses with nowhere to go. 

There is a reason why cow/pig/sheep abandonment and neglect are very rare compared to horses.

And if they were potential meat animals then DEFRA would have to get off their ass and sort out the ridiculous mess that is the Horse Passport System.


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## RoxyNewstead221 (26 January 2014)

Thank you for your opinion this seems to be a missed subjected in the Uk


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## s4sugar (26 January 2014)

Kallibear said:



			Start eating horse meat in this country.  Make sure the welfare and transport standards are the same high level as cows, pigs and sheep.

If the horse can be sold for meat, it gives the animal value.  Things with value are looked after better.  And it would give an outlet for all the lower end over bred horses with nowhere to go. 

There is a reason why cow/pig/sheep abandonment and neglect are very rare compared to horses.

And if they were potential meat animals then DEFRA would have to get off their ass and sort out the ridiculous mess that is the Horse Passport System.
		
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Well said.


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## popsdosh (26 January 2014)

Totally agree!!!!


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## popsdosh (26 January 2014)

Just one quick note to the OP ,I personally get rather bored at this time of year by the number of students who expect contributors to these forums to write their dissertations for them. Surely the idea is to get off your backside and do your own research,I am sure you would learn more by it!


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## HBM1 (26 January 2014)

popsdosh said:



			Just one quick note to the OP ,I personally get rather bored at this time of year by the number of students who expect contributors to these forums to write their dissertations for them. Surely the idea is to get off your backside and do your own research,I am sure you would learn more by it!
		
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What is the difference between going to the library and looking at several books, going to a breed show and asking several breeders, and asking on here?  I am sure no student uses HHO to do their whole dissertation.  Even with the thoughts given on here, the student still has to write it.  I don't think they would accept a cut and paste from HHO as a final copy.

I also do not think introducing horse meat is the answer to this problem.  After all, the same people who breed willy nilly and don't care, will still do so,just for the food market.  It does not at all mean they would look after their horses any better.


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## Kallibear (26 January 2014)

HBM1 said:



			I also do not think introducing horse meat is the answer to this problem.  After all, the same people who breed willy nilly and don't care, will still do so,just for the food market.  It does not at all mean they would look after their horses any better.
		
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No, they won't be able to. The restrictions,  rules and regulations for cattle and sheep means they have to be looked after properly (and not least have a suitable passport). They are completely traceable and the owners accountable.  If horses were given the same protection that would do them the world of good.


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## HBM1 (27 January 2014)

I see what you mean, I for one could never eat it, I think it would be a sad day if it were to happen in this country.  I just wish those who breed without any thought as to their welfare, wouldn't.


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## Kallibear (27 January 2014)

HBM1 said:



			I see what you mean, I for one could never eat it, I think it would be a sad day if it were to happen in this country.  I just wish those who breed without any thought as to their welfare, wouldn't.
		
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Why do you think it'd be a sad day for horses if we started eating them?  I have said it'd help welfare over all. Ginger the much loved Pony Club pony isn't going to be eaten but the thousands amd thousands of neglected and abandoned overbred cobs would a) be traceable and the owners accountable and b) have a quick and humane end.

I totally agree that them not being bred in the first place would be far better but sadly there are plenty of greedy, callous and plain stupid people about who've easily got their paws on a mare and stallion. Making that far far harder to achieve would be a good start. That's what the passport was MEANT to be for but it's just been a total joke. It needs to be properly run, like cattle and sheep passports but I suspect the only way to ge DEFRA to do it properly is to make horses meat animals too.


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## Maesfen (27 January 2014)

Kallibear said:



			Why do you think it'd be a sad day for horses if we started eating them?  I have said it'd help welfare over all. Ginger the much loved Pony Club pony isn't going to be eaten but the thousands amd thousands of neglected and abandoned overbred cobs would a) be traceable and the owners accountable and b) have a quick and humane end.

I totally agree that them not being bred in the first place would be far better but sadly there are plenty of greedy, callous and plain stupid people about who've easily got their paws on a mare and stallion. Making that far far harder to achieve would be a good start. That's what the passport was MEANT to be for but it's just been a total joke. It needs to be properly run, like cattle and sheep passports but I suspect the only way to ge DEFRA to do it properly is to make horses meat animals too.
		
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Couldn't agree more.  After all, people will have the choice whether to eat it or not (not for me I'm afraid) but there will be no choice for any owner of horses, whichever colour or creed they are, everything will have to be registered and passported right from birth like calves, sheep and pigs.  Those that aren't there should be the right to confiscate and slaughter them without compensation.  The only thing these people that overbreed understand is when it hits their pocket, nothing short of a cull will do anything to alleviate this situation and it would stop a hell of a lot of suffering in the mean time.


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## Rollin (27 January 2014)

Kallibear said:



			Start eating horse meat in this country.  Make sure the welfare and transport standards are the same high level as cows, pigs and sheep.

If the horse can be sold for meat, it gives the animal value.  Things with value are looked after better.  And it would give an outlet for all the lower end over bred horses with nowhere to go. 

There is a reason why cow/pig/sheep abandonment and neglect are very rare compared to horses.

And if they were potential meat animals then DEFRA would have to get off their ass and sort out the ridiculous mess that is the Horse Passport System.
		
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The French eat horse meat, though far less than most Brits imagine.  The horsemeat on sale in my local supermarkets is from Mexico, which has the most appalling welfare standards.  My local Cheval butcher buys his horse meat from Canada.

How would eating horses help?

The latest in the horsemeat scandal, here in France, is horses used for drug testing and vaccine production which are now in the human food chain.

The problem for those of breeding rare breeds is that we actually need to breed MORE not less but I only breed one or two foals a year of top quality of course!!

There are about 500 pure bred Cleveland bays in the world.  In 2012 just 20 pure bred foals - worldwide!!  

There are about 2,500 Shagya in the world.  In the days when the Imperial Stud at Babolna, Hungary  bred Shagya's for the cavalry mounts they bred 3,000 a year.


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## Kallibear (27 January 2014)

Rollin said:



			The French eat horse meat, though far less than most Brits imagine.  The horsemeat on sale in my local supermarkets is from Mexico, which has the most appalling welfare standards.  My local Cheval butcher buys his horse meat from Canada.

How would eating horses help?

The latest in the horsemeat scandal, here in France, is horses used for drug testing and vaccine production which are now in the human food chain.

The problem for those of breeding rare breeds is that we actually need to breed MORE not less but I only breed one or two foals a year of top quality of course!!

There are about 500 pure bred Cleveland bays in the world.  In 2012 just 20 pure bred foals - worldwide!!  

There are about 2,500 Shagya in the world.  In the days when the Imperial Stud at Babolna, Hungary  bred Shagya's for the cavalry mounts they bred 3,000 a year.
		
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Because we are not France or the rest of Europe and our welfare standards and regulations are far higher.  That's why Britiah meat is so expensive by comparison! It costs money to have high welfare standards.  But many,  like myself, are willing to pay the extra for high-welfare meat.  It's why I currently wouldn't eat horse meat., because the poor welfare of the countries it's currently coming from. We can't stop imported horse meat coming into the country but that wouldn't affect our own meat horses anyways. 

We have no shortage of horses  in this country,  quite the opposite. But the higher level well bred horses are alsi suffering because why would the average horse owner spend £3000 on a well bred foal when they can pick up an OK one from market for £30.


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## HBM1 (27 January 2014)

Kallibear said:



			Because we are not France or the rest of Europe and our welfare standards and regulations are far higher.  .
		
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I think the rather hideous hidden video footage of horse slaughter taken at the abbatoir last year would beg to differ with that statement.

not to mention the ones of pigs being tortured before slaughter.  I'm afraid until all of that stops, we cannot hold our heads up higher than any other country.


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## Rollin (27 January 2014)

Kallibear

How would you insure that the horse meat eaten was British and therefore subject to higher welfare standards, as opposed to imported from Mexico or Canada?  Cost of food is a real problem for British families.

I hate to say this but I would suggest that the majority of UK housewives know far less about the origin of their meat than the very fussy French housewife.  I live between three villages, which between them support four bakers, three butchers and two specialist pork butchers.  I buy very little meat from a supermarket and every local butcher displays a notice with the name of the farm and breed of meat sold.

Horse Breeding in France is controlled by the National Stud.  Unlike the UK I can only stand a stallion if he has been both swabbed for CEM and vaccinated at the beginning of each breeding season.  All blood and swab results are fed back to the National Equine Database in France.  If there is any viral outbreak anywhere in France I am notified by email.

I think that there are some very high standards in Continental Europe.  The film of one horse abattoir in the UK would suggest that actually standards are not upheld.


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## kittywilkinson (28 January 2014)

I think breeding needs to be regulated quite strongly in the UK.  There needs to be some system in place where stallions are mares are limited to how many foals they can make in a year/breeding programme. Possibly with owners limited to numbers that they can breed. Not sure how this would be policed, or put in place. But I think this would work as an idea to work on by the authorities necessary.  

Also, as to eating horse meat, the main thing I can think of is that cutural attitudes are hard to change and you would have better chance exporting it. The laws around livestock do mean that they are looked after better (in general) so in theory horses would have better standards, but I don't see how this would control breeding.


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## RoxyNewstead221 (28 January 2014)

Do we feel that each breed should have a assocaion and the 'other' e.g dartmoor, bodmin moor ponies, exmoor? 
Also, Do people feel that anyone owner stallions for breeding purposes should have breeding licenses?
Increasing the welfare of the horse and ponies in the UK should be revisted by the goverment as this is a subject which has been left aside and needs to be looked at from the horses point of view


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## popsdosh (28 January 2014)

kittywilkinson said:



			I think breeding needs to be regulated quite strongly in the UK.  There needs to be some system in place where stallions are mares are limited to how many foals they can make in a year/breeding programme. Possibly with owners limited to numbers that they can breed. Not sure how this would be policed, or put in place. But I think this would work as an idea to work on by the authorities necessary.  

Also, as to eating horse meat, the main thing I can think of is that cutural attitudes are hard to change and you would have better chance exporting it. The laws around livestock do mean that they are looked after better (in general) so in theory horses would have better standards, but I don't see how this would control breeding.
		
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What gives anybody the right to say you cannot breed from a mare !!! The only control realistically is economics! I as much as anybody do not believe in breeding from unsuitable mares however I defend anybodies right to do so if they wish(it could never be put into law as it would be a restriction of trade) next thing you will be licencing humans to breed,I think somebody had that idea 70yrs ago!!!


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## emmah (28 January 2014)

popsdosh said:



			What gives anybody the right to say you cannot breed from a mare !!! The only control realistically is economics! I as much as anybody do not believe in breeding from unsuitable mares however I defend anybodies right to do so if they wish(it could never be put into law as it would be a restriction of trade) next thing you will be licencing humans to breed,I think somebody had that idea 70yrs ago!!!
		
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I agree completely with this!!! I'm sick of reading posts that seem to bash anybody breeding a foal!!  I have a dodgy leg and back and an ugly boyfriend does that mean I cannot have a baby


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## Lgd (28 January 2014)

Sadly, the educated breeder will breed responsibly and many, like myself, are reducing or not breeding at present. I do have a young stallion, he will be put forward for grading when he is ready and proven under saddle. If he is not up to the job or does not grade he will be gelded.

The one phrase or variation on it guaranteed to make me want to scream is 'Oh, she has gone lame/is too crazy to ride, so i'm putting her in foal to xxx's ungraded stallion up the road'. Those are the people who need educating.


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## Buddy'sMum (28 January 2014)

emmah said:



			I'm sick of reading posts that seem to bash anybody breeding a foal!!
		
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Me too. Also getting tired of the bashing in British Horse mag. Yes, there is a breeding crisis in the UK but I hardly think those of us who pay our BHS membership fees are the cause of it!!



emmah said:



			I have a dodgy leg and back and an ugly boyfriend does that mean I cannot have a baby 

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How very dare you for even considering such a thing!


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## Buddy'sMum (28 January 2014)

RoxyNewstead221 said:



			Do we feel that each breed should have a assocaion and the 'other' e.g dartmoor, bodmin moor ponies, exmoor?
		
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Do you mean breed societies? We already have them. 



RoxyNewstead221 said:



			Increasing the welfare of the horse and ponies in the UK should be revisted by the goverment as this is a subject which has been left aside and needs to be looked at from the horses point of view
		
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Nope. That would doubtless lead to taxation in one form or another for us horse owners. Which only responsible horse owners (who have not contributed to the current crisis) would pay.


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## HBM1 (28 January 2014)

RoxyNewstead221 said:



			Do we feel that each breed should have a assocaion and the 'other' e.g dartmoor, bodmin moor ponies, exmoor? 
Also, Do people feel that anyone owner stallions for breeding purposes should have breeding licenses?
Increasing the welfare of the horse and ponies in the UK should be revisted by the goverment as this is a subject which has been left aside and needs to be looked at from the horses point of view
		
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Firstly to Kitty Wilkinson, some studbooks (not sure if all) already limit the number stallions can cover, eg if with Breeders Elite or AES if a stallion is Graded as "registered" they can have up to 10 foals per year of the owner's own mares - if licensed, it is 30 foals a year for the AES, again not sure re Breeders Elite.  those who run stallions willy nilly are not going to bother getting licenced at all.  

Secondly re the above RoxyNewstead221, I am new to stallion ownership, my first homebred is now 4 and going through the process of seeing if he will grade.  I have already paid to raise him, now paying to have him professionally backed and produced.  He will need a five stage vetting, x-rays, fees to have him graded and registered with the studbook (just registering with the studbook alone is £450).  Plus all breeding swabs etc as well as his competition entry fees etc - the majority of responsible stallion owners will also do this - why should we then have to get a licence too, which will invariably cost even more money and not make our keeping of stallions any better than all the things previously listed.  Again, irresponsible stallion owners will not bother getting a licence - same as for dogs, a licence does not make for a responsible dog owner, those who are though, will buy one, those who aren't won't.


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## RosieWiggin (31 January 2014)

I think that this is a very interesting topic. Perhaps breeding should be more indiscriminate and carefully controlled for quality not quantity. An idea I am researching is the commercial and financial viability of adopting European methods of station and field tests, along with shorter evaluations in order to approve horses for breeding in a UK Performance testing centre. It would be used as a central hub for all Sport Horse Studbooks, creating a vast database for results linked with bloodlines and progeny success. It could also be used as a British Bred Auction House and an international competition centre. Link to survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/T2YP6R5 share your opinions!


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## JanetGeorge (31 January 2014)

What everyone has missed is that a large part of the problem RESPONSIBLE breeders are facing is the large numbers of cheap horses imported into the UK.  We get them by the bucketful from Ireland - and also from Europe - many sneaking in thanks to the Tripartite agreement with NO health checks because they have been bought from French fattening farms.  They are then sold here by dealers for somewhere between £900 and 2000 - they look cheap - and buyers think they can get away with making derisory offers for decently bred and raised horses from breeders in the UK.  Of course, many of the buyers will suffer from buying these cheap horses (many of whom WERE headed for slaughter) but will they come to their senses and buy a DECENT horse - or just give up!

And before anyone says: "Oh, they're tightening up the Tripartite agreement" - I assure you it will do very little to help as they're ONLY tightening up on horses from France - not from Ireland - so a lot of them will STILL come here - just via Ireland!  And they haven't mentioned how much money they're going to spend on enforcement (not much, I'll bet) so changing the rules will have little or no effect on our dodgier horse dealers!


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## Spook (31 January 2014)

Urmmm, I hardly dare say this but...... we should be eating horses here in Britain, actually we have always done so either knowingly or otherwise.

The habit of the caring breeder keeping every foal bred because we just love it to bits is a recent thing (just in case you wonder this is tongue in cheek!) We assume the vet can cure all ills etc. and they cannot, no matter what they tell you.

The horse population in the UK needs to halve..... half of the equines here are not fit for purpose for many reasons. No I don't object to the "old faithfuls" being retired in luxury nor ponies being kept in palaces as pets..... but in reality this is not the case generally.

And having eaten horse......it is delicious when cooked properly. 

There is a crisis which could so easily be solved, there is a world shortage of meat....


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## Spook (31 January 2014)

Blimey have I killed this thread dead?


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## Rollin (3 February 2014)

Spook said:



			Blimey have I killed this thread dead?
		
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So it would seem.  Bin 'ere on another thread!  French people eat horse meat, in very small quantities.  In my supermarkets probably no more than 6 packs of horse meat on the heaving shelves of pork, beef, lamb and poultry.

Where does it come from? Mexico!!!

I don't think it is a goer.  Unless of course it is hidden in cheap microwave meals.  If that is what you choose to eat unlikely you will care anyway.

I am a bit of a foodie - which means lots of non-meat meals. I am not a vegetarian.


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## shirleyno2 (7 February 2014)

I totally agree with Janet George, re cheap foreign imports. The old saying of you get what you pay for is true. I buy horses from the continent, for every one I buy, there is probably 3 or 4 that I have had vetted and they have failed the vetting. I then see this horse in the UK being advertised for 2950.
 Re eating horse, for all the ones that are bred with bad conformation/attitude that makes them unsuitable for riding, yes I think its a better end for them than getting hauled round all the different nasty sales rings.


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## sywell (7 February 2014)

Rollin said:



			The French eat horse meat, though far less than most Brits imagine.  The horsemeat on sale in my local supermarkets is from Mexico, which has the most appalling welfare standards.  My local Cheval butcher buys his horse meat from Canada.

How would eating horses help?

The latest in the horsemeat scandal, here in France, is horses used for drug testing and vaccine production which are now in the human food chain.

The problem for those of breeding rare breeds is that we actually need to breed MORE not less but I only breed one or two foals a year of top quality of course!!

There are about 500 pure bred Cleveland bays in the world.  In 2012 just 20 pure bred foals - worldwide!!  

There are about 2,500 Shagya in the world.  In the days when the Imperial Stud at Babolna, Hungary  bred Shagya's for the cavalry mounts they bred 3,000 a year.
		
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The horsemeat comes from Mexico and Canada because the USA passed legislation that closed horsemeat slaughter houses for horses for human consumption.


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## sywell (7 February 2014)

I have a letter from Lord de Mauley at DEFRA and he clearly does not understand the differance between registered  horses  and an ID only horses as he has classified horses on the NTR register as registered horses for the TPA


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## angrovestud (7 February 2014)

NTR horses can race under rules and breed racehorses and race & breed abroad.
 ID passport only can neither race or be used for breeding unless re registered in the NTR as unknown breeding.


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## sywell (7 February 2014)

There are 300 TB on the NTR but there are large numbers where the dam pedigree is unknown and they should not come under the TPA as they cannot fill in he Annex to the passport which is a requirement for registered horses


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## olop (7 February 2014)

Surely if this country allows horses to be used for meat it will increase the amount of horse's in this country??
Your gonna get people breeding horses for meat and then the same problems with all the gypsy cobs everywhere, or am I just being a bit thick??!!

I think the only way of controlling the horse population in this country is to regulate breeding so you can't just breed anything and everything and cull horses that are clearly not microchipped and or fly-grazed (there are far worst fates for these horse's IMO)


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## Rollin (7 February 2014)

sywell said:



			The horsemeat comes from Mexico and Canada because the USA passed legislation that closed horsemeat slaughter houses for horses for human consumption.
		
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I don't quite understand?  France, Italy and Spain have slaughter houses for horses for human consumption.

Why do the French eat Mexican horsemeat?

How would a campaign to persuade Brits to eat horse make any difference to the irresponsible breeder?


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## angrovestud (8 February 2014)

sywell said:



			There are 300 TB on the NTR but there are large numbers where the dam pedigree is unknown and they should not come under the TPA as they cannot fill in he Annex to the passport which is a requirement for registered horses
		
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 but all horses that are on the NTR and V11 can not race but there progeny can race, what do you mean fill in the Annex? my own horses were V11 and now we are at GB status the two original horses were of known parentage outside of Weatherbys and documented, but Weatherbys say unknown if the parents of the V11 horses are not also registered as breeding stock with Weatherbys


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## Bedlam (9 February 2014)

You can't just eat any old horse. Eating horse meat won't actually solve the over breeding issue. In countries that eat horse meat the horses are farmed in exactly the same way as cattle, sheep and pigs are farmed here. There are specific breeds of horses that are good to eat and those are the ones that are farmed - we don't tend to eat Jersey cows for example - they are good for high fat milk not meat. So if we as a nation started to eat horse meat then there would be farms for horse meat horses - probably Belgian heavyweight breeds I'm guessing. It wouldn't be a good way to get rid of cheap, poorly bred ponies.


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## RoxyNewstead221 (9 February 2014)

Bedlam said:



			You can't just eat any old horse. Eating horse meat won't actually solve the over breeding issue. In countries that eat horse meat the horses are farmed in exactly the same way as cattle, sheep and pigs are farmed here. There are specific breeds of horses that are good to eat and those are the ones that are farmed - we don't tend to eat Jersey cows for example - they are good for high fat milk not meat. So if we as a nation started to eat horse meat then there would be farms for horse meat horses - probably Belgian heavyweight breeds I'm guessing. It wouldn't be a good way to get rid of cheap, poorly bred ponies.
		
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Thank you for your input, This is a subject which has been left in the dark and which needs to be brought to life. this forum was started to get opinions which can be used to show how much is being missed. 

I feel that if horses was brought forward for the use of horse meat would help to improve the welfare of the horses as they would have a value to people breeding them and this could help reduce the welfare cases. 
The breeds of horses would be the bigger, stocky types and this would help to reduce horses/ponies on the moors and help to reduce the number of horses/ponies being dumped or neglected. 

Thanks


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## AengusOg (9 February 2014)

I think there are at least two issues emerging here.

There will always be meat men to buy unwanted horses in times when the markets are depressed through over-productuion of poorly-bred individuals. As long as too many horses are bred for a limited market, the prices will remain low and horses will be virtually worthless. The meat men are only buying what no-one else wants. 

The present crisis evolved because there were mares in foal all over the country, and lots of unsold 1,2,3yr olds as well, at the time of the financial crash. Many people failed to realise how long the economy would take to recover, and continued to put their mares in foal in the hope that prices would rise to near former levels. This didn't happen, but foals were produced in the same sort of numbers for at least two seasons more than common sense dictated. The present crisis in welfare and the amount of unwanted horses in the country are direct results of the above. 

As long as the price of horses is low, there is a chance that fewer will be bred.

The other factor is the possible production of horses specifically for the meat market. I agree that this, if it became established, would have little bearing on the present type of crisis because, once all the meat men have done their buying, there still has to be a huge reduction in the production of non-specific meat animals.

There is a tendency for breeders to respond to a rise in an animal's worth by selling that animal and breeding more. The fewer horses there are for sale, the greater the cost of those available, so reliance on breeders to self-police is a false hope.

The establishment of a horse meat production industry in Britain may be the answer in that it should require accountability, welfare standards, and sound practice. It should also rely on the establishment of proper slaughter facilities in this country and should bring about the cessation of live haulage of horses to Europe for slaughter. Animals destined for human consumption would have to be farmed, killed close to their point of production, and exported chilled or frozen.

That, though, would incur costs, such as housing, feed, veterinary attention, and haulage, making horse meat a more expensive commodity than it is at the moment. Would consumers be prepared to pay more for meat from an animal which had been reared, fed, and slaughtered with accountability? I suspect not. However, accountability and transparency in production and slaughter, if they were the only criteria by which horses were allowed into the food chain, as occurs in farming of other species for human consumption, would be the means by which over-breeding could be diminished or eliminated, as there would be no meat men. The meat men would have no outlet, so they would cease to buy. 

The pet food trade may be the only outlet left for buyers of non-farmed horse meat. Clarity on that score may put off a few breeders.

However, the current crisis has to be resolved, and that demands a huge amount of effort and joined-up thinking by welfare charities, veterinary practices, legislators, and Defra. The only way to put the brakes on indescriminate breeding is to limit the routes by which horses enter the food chain, and that requires strict codes of conduct and welfare.

I don't know if the government and its agencies have the bottle or the brains to solve the present crisis and prevent it happening again.


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## firm (10 February 2014)

"Over £4 million-worth of horse meat was exported in 2012, up on just under £1.9m-worth in 2008. 

And the volume of horse meat exported in tonnes more than doubled between 2008 and 2012, from 999 tonnes in 2008 to 2,233 tonnes in 2012". 

Despite the figures above horse welfare/over breeding has not improved  so why do people believe eating more horse meat will improve this?

Janet George made a very good point, you don't see reams of UK bred horses selling in Holland or Belgium or Germany for £2k but the UK has loads of imports selling for those figures. Why does it happen? Is it because the UK horse buying public think only on price compared with for example the Germans?   I cant imagine a German horse buyer going around boasting they had picked up a UK bred sporthorse for £1.5k and what a bargain it was?  They would think they had been sold a dodgy horse!
It just seem crazy as the UK already have the market of cheap ex racing TBs which they do not have abroad and to add to that we import the surplus suspiciously cheap horses from abroad leaving not much room for the UK bred quality horse.


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## s4sugar (20 February 2014)

Just saw this advert on Facebook and to me it sums up why we have such a  problem -
"I have two TB x! One filly and one colt half brother and sister ! Do not let the colt put you off as he has the kindest nature,
Is out running with my mares. He isn't coltish in the slightest . He is not bolshy or anything. They are both rising 3 in November, they were late foals. To both make 15.2ish colt possibly bigger. They are use to dogs traffic heavy machinery and kids.
They will both make fantastic projects once turnt 3. I have started bitting them ready to be broken in November. Unfortunately I do not know what they are crossed with as I rescued them to give them a better start in life then to find them a forever home. I have had them since 6months old and they have truly been a real
Pleasure to do. Sensible offers only. "


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## Kaylum (20 February 2014)

Oh all those wanting to eat horse meat and any other meat for that matter there is a nice video that was done by whw that's available when they went under cover in a slaughter house. Will put you off meat for life. 

As for over breeding everyone wants a bargain. Stallions are covering for £20 and some stallion owners don't give a monkeys what mare comes to visit they just want money. It starts there.


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## hackneylass2 (1 March 2014)

Horses are being killed for meat here already and I don't see brilliant welfare standards.  Are horses officially classed as meat animals here or not? I did ask DEFRA but have had no reply.  If they are not, who does the ante and post mortem tests in UK abattoirs?

As for Continentals eating horses farmed and with decent welfare standards, that seems like  bollards to me, most of the horses are killed in Mexico,  shipped in from the USA, killed inhumanely and are sourced from auctions.  Old, injured, possibly diseased - who knows? That's what the French are mostly eating.

I watched a programme last year about some people eating various 'taboo' animals, In France, it was shown that horses raised in idlyllic pastures went for meat.  The horses supposedly were young and raised like cattle.  The actual horse they ate was shown being led to the abattoir... to any vaguely horsey person the animal looked old, it also wore shoes and led very well in a halter.  This was no virtually unhandled youngster, coming to the end of its short but free range life!   Apparently the people eating the unfortunate animal said the meat was mushy textured and sweet, sweet in not a very nice way.


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## Kaylum (8 March 2014)

The point people miss about killing animals for meat is they might be well looked after when they are alive but after that on the way to be killed and just before they are killed is totally horrific and it seems to be put out of people's minds like its acceptable. If they have a good life when they are alive what does a day of horrific treatment matter if they are going to die anyway? Think of the whole process not just the fluffy side of it. Watch out if your horse is sent to auction it could end up in a slaughter house not knowing where it is, being blooded whilst still awake etc etc. seeing others being killed. It's last moments should be as happy as its first ones.


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## Rollin (8 March 2014)

Kaylum said:



			The point people miss about killing animals for meat is they might be well looked after when they are alive but after that on the way to be killed and just before they are killed is totally horrific and it seems to be put out of people's minds like its acceptable. If they have a good life when they are alive what does a day of horrific treatment matter if they are going to die anyway? Think of the whole process not just the fluffy side of it. Watch out if your horse is sent to auction it could end up in a slaughter house not knowing where it is, being blooded whilst still awake etc etc. seeing others being killed. It's last moments should be as happy as its first ones.
		
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I am in total agreement with you.  The American Humane Society have collected some stomach churning video footage.  Horses will fight to live until their last breath.  We all know how intelligent they are and how they tune into our emotions.  How can such a successful prey animal not hear and smell what is ahead of them in the chute?


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## BigBuck's (11 March 2014)

To make any sort of difference, there needs to be an overhaul of the passport legislation.  Ideally there would be one centralised PIO which would work in harmony with breed societies.  Certainly no more of this ridiculous situation where auction houses can be PIOs.  There then needs to be actual passport checks and meaningful sanctions with teeth for transgressions of passport legislation.

In addition, a joined-up approach to retraining and rehoming retired racehorses.  This is one of the single biggest sectors of overproduction and by definition only a minority can be any good.  At the moment we rely on a variety of individual, fragmented organisations - almost all charities - each with their own agendas and priorities.  If we could get something centralised, which trainers could contact when horses were about to come out of training, we could get some consistency of standards in retraining which would give these horses a higher value as they start their second careers.

These wouldn't be magic wands, but they'd be steps in the right direction.


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## Alec Swan (11 March 2014)

BigBuck's said:



			.......

These wouldn't be magic wands, but they'd be steps in the right direction.
		
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I agree with you.  There are no magic wands and only a reassessment of ALL our working practices will prove to be of any use,  or allow for a forward movement.

I would be a little surprised to find that the re-homing of Racehorses,  would actually work.  In the main,  and given their previous learning curve,  there will be such a high failure rate that it simply wouldn't be a viable proposition.  I'd very much like to be proven wrong on this point!  My experience of horses out of training is that they "can" be an absolute nightmare,  and rarely are they for anyone but the most experienced,  sadly.

To add to the list of corrective changes that could be made,  I'd suggest that we start at the very end,  and that we give a horse,  at the end of its use or life,  a value.  For a horse to have an end value,  then we need to work towards a proper and ethical slaughter regime where horses are processed correctly and humanely.  If horses have an end value,  then instead of being a liability,  they will be viewed as assets and those who currently neglect their charges will be encouraged to protect that asset,  rather than leaving them to wilt and die.

I've opened negotiations with the bulk of the equine charities,  and not one will support my thoughts,  which I find rather disappointing,  though considering the political stances that the bulk of those charities will take,  hardly surprising.  I rather wish that they weren't quite so spineless,  though again,  they have their charitable donations to consider,  don't they?  

I've given serious thought to opening up a dedicated Equine Abattoir,  employing full time and competent staff,  but without the support of our Equine Charities,  the bulk of which should be ashamed of their apathy,  so there seems little point.  I even had a mothballed site in mind.  Hey-ho!!

I'm rather at the end of my thinking process on the question of horse welfare,  and the problem of over production,  because those who have the power to change things,  wont.  

Alec.


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