# new to the forum - harrowing question



## bmbonanza (16 April 2015)

hi, this is my first post so apologies if it is wrongly formatted or in the wrong place!

Just going from a poo picking to a harrowing only pasture management system. 
They are 2 horses, 2 ponies on 8 acres but they only graze about 6.  We do not field rotate as all are very good doers so moving them on to new fields always seems to trigger a laminitis episode so they graze two fields in two pairs.  Wormed regularly and always worm counted zero.

I have now bought a chain harrow ready to get going and I know ideally it should be hot or very cold but how often should I harrow and is it better not to harrow at all if it is mild (ie leave the field covered in poo piles) or still harrow.  They will be going straight back on to the field.  I do not mind virtually no grass, am happy to feed hay all year round, but obviously dont want to get a worm problem.

any advice (except ''go back to poo picking'' because that isnt an option!!) welcome.


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## Dry Rot (16 April 2015)

I am just in from harrowing the three acre field five Highland ponies have been in all winter. I harrow with chain harrows with 3 inch tines behind a 40HP tractor and I harrow twice, the second time at right angles to the first. I try to choose a time when the nuggets of poo will break up easily and I have a wooden railway sleeper dragged behind the harrows which makes a pretty good job of smashing up the lumps and spreading hat remains. The ponies have been moved onto clean grass and won't be put back in this field for a few weeks or until most of the dung has disappeared. 

I am sure the purists will say this is just spreading worm eggs but the eggs are killed by sunlight and larvae will also be killed by alternate wetting and drying. Either short or long grass seems to be best as in short grass there is no shelter for eggs/larvae and in long grass I assume the eggs will be at soil level and apparently the larvae exhaust themselves travelling up and down the grass stems trying to get eaten by another host! (I almost feel sorry for the poor little things! ).

The above is pure speculation based on what I know about the worms' life cycle and you must make your own decision. If I suspect a pony might have worms, it gets dosed, regardless! That doesn't happen very often though. If in doubt, get a FEC done.


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## Clodagh (16 April 2015)

You saved me posting the same question. I have decided to stop poo picking as my grass is struggling and we cannot get the tractor into the field to fertilise it. I have decided to use horse dung fertiliser! 
One more question though - my bottom field is very mossy, a friend has a 'slitter' I can borrow, would it be worth it, do you think?


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## bmbonanza (16 April 2015)

Thanks for that - the grass is very short at the moment as they are eating it off as it comes through and I am hoping it will stay like a starvation field all summer as they do not need grass at all. They are going to have to go straight back onto it after harrowing though.

Should I aim to harrow every month? Its a 4ft harrow that I will tow with a landrover, can be used ''aggressive'' or ''passive'' spikes down or just flat like a chain link fence


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## SusieT (16 April 2015)

If you are harrowing and putting straight back on you will get a higher worm burden as you will spread the eggs-better to split the pasture and harrow and rest at least several weeks (preferably six months!) or poo piclk


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## bmbonanza (16 April 2015)

As said in original post poo picking isnt an option.  Could rest but then it will grow even if it is a few weeks and we will have too much grass and a lammi issue. Presumably if we worm religiously there will not be a worm problem?


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## ILuvCowparsely (16 April 2015)

bmbonanza said:



			hi, this is my first post so apologies if it is wrongly formatted or in the wrong place!

Just going from a poo picking to a harrowing only pasture management system. 
They are 2 horses, 2 ponies on 8 acres but they only graze about 6.  We do not field rotate as all are very good doers so moving them on to new fields always seems to trigger a laminitis episode so they graze two fields in two pairs.  Wormed regularly and always worm counted zero.

I have now bought a chain harrow ready to get going and I know ideally it should be hot or very cold but how often should I harrow and is it better not to harrow at all if it is mild (ie leave the field covered in poo piles) or still harrow.  They will be going straight back on to the field.  I do not mind virtually no grass, am happy to feed hay all year round, but obviously dont want to get a worm problem.

any advice (except ''go back to poo picking'' because that isnt an option!!) welcome.
		
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I don't like harrowing fields  much rather pick it up and remove it then spread it round the field.

check out here for pros and cons with harrowing versus poo picking >>>>     http://horse-care-and-advice.weebly.com/land-management.html


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## bmbonanza (16 April 2015)

Thanks - but this is not a poo picking vs harrowing question.  We have always poo picked but it isnt our land so the final say is not ours and a change of regime is going to happen.

Poo picking daily is the gold standard for horse care - no one would disagree with that -  but this cannot happen so I need to know how to manage the harrowing to the best effect in conjunction with rigorous worming etc.


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## Dry Rot (16 April 2015)

Would you like poo spread all over your meal? Most herbivores (all?) avoid their own dung. I would worry about horses eating grass contaminated with bacteria.

If you only harrow half the field at a time, the horses will surely choose the uncontaminated half, unless they are starving? You can, of course, ration your grazing with an electric fence.

Moss usually indicates the need for drainage and/or lime. Harrowing might help by exposing bare soil for grass to re-colonise.

Harrowing flat side down is good for rolling up old hay and grass but doesn't seem to do much to poo. I did try it but am back to spikes down.

The key is really to do regular FECs. It is not difficult to do yourself and the kit is not expensive. Plenty of information available if you Google.


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## pixie (16 April 2015)

You need temperatures of 30+ degrees centigrade to kill the larvae, so harrowing really does just spread the worms all over.  Just because someone else owns the field, nothing is stopping you from poo picking.


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## bmbonanza (16 April 2015)

pixie said:



			........just because someone else owns the field, nothing is stopping you from poo picking.
		
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We have to follow YOs directive as it is not our field


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## Clodagh (16 April 2015)

I have always been an intermittant poo picker, I never do in winter (mine live out) and only do the field I can see from the house in summer. I have always harrowed and rested the far two, for at least 2 months after harrowing. I worm once a year for tapeworm and have FEC done and never have worm troubles. It is only from this year I am planning on harrowing as poo control on all fields.


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## Auslander (16 April 2015)

Clodagh said:



			I have always been an intermittant poo picker, I never do in winter (mine live out) and only do the field I can see from the house in summer. I have always harrowed and rested the far two, for at least 2 months after harrowing. I worm once a year for tapeworm and have FEC done and never have worm troubles. It is only from this year I am planning on harrowing as poo control on all fields.
		
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Similar strategy here. I've got a ten acre field - divided into three big paddocks. I do a bit of poo-picking (or rather, my son does, for financial recompense) but my regime is to graze one for a couple of months, rest two, and harrow as I move them off one paddock. The field wasn't grazed for years before I took it on, and my horses have regular FEC's and are wormed for tape/ESRW. Never had a worm problem


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## Polos Mum (18 April 2015)

OP - why don't you see if your yard owner will harrow half then leave it 6 weeks before doing the other half - horses are pretty sensible they won't eat the poo covered stuff if they don't have to.


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## Dry Rot (18 April 2015)

pixie said:



			You need temperatures of 30+ degrees centigrade to kill the larvae, so harrowing really does just spread the worms all over.  Just because someone else owns the field, nothing is stopping you from poo picking.
		
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While I don't dispute what you say regarding the temperature needed to kill larvae (because I really don't know), are you saying that heat is the only thing that will kill them? I thought alternate wetting and drying, also sunlight, was what destroyed them? Frost is also said to kill the eggs. Others say that some worms are better than none because horses do build up an immunity -- but then some probably don't!

It suits a lot of people to keep horse owners ignorant about worms and worming, probably because they make a good living by selling us chemicals whether we need them or not.


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## Nudibranch (19 April 2015)

OP is it possible to split the grazing and rest half after harrowing? I would suggest several months at least, if you can. This is based on what we do, which is no poo picking or harrowing ever. However the winter field is 9 acres and rested for 6 months. The summer field is 3.5 acres and also rested for 6 months. Both are also grazed by sheep and occasionally cattle. Egg counts are zero so I worm in spring and autumn for tapeworm.


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## bmbonanza (19 April 2015)

yes we could split, but then not only would the field rest but the grass would grow and then when they moved we would have too much grass for them to go on to. we keep them on the same field as they need bare grazed down pasture


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## Leo Walker (19 April 2015)

Could you not top the grass? Or just move the electric fence by a metre or so every day. That way they dont get a lot of lush grass and eat it down before you move onto the next section?


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## SusieT (19 April 2015)

move the electric fence by a foot dialy when moving back onto the ungrazed bit.


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## bmbonanza (21 April 2015)

We dont do strip graze - they get too pushy for my young daughter and once they have eaten it they just trash the fence - any fence has to be proper fence not electtic tape

havent got access to a topper and even when we paid to top it there was way too much grass - and we had to rake the topped grass off by hand which was a killer


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## Leo Walker (21 April 2015)

Get a ride on mower that picks up the clippings?


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## bmbonanza (22 April 2015)

We tried that last year -borrowed a mower and mowed 4 acres but it still didnt stop him getting lammi so dont want to take the risk again. No grass is better. such good doers they do not need any grass at all so not bothered if it ruins the grass


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## SusieT (22 April 2015)

You're not going to lik eit but you are setting yourself up for health problems and ignoring all the advice isn't going to make it any better


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## bmbonanza (22 April 2015)

I am not ignoring it - I have tried electric fencing, it doesnt work, they go straight through it.  I have tried mowing it and that doesnt work - still too much grass.  YO says no to poo picking. 
As I said in OP I need information on worrying about what I cant do.


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## Achinghips (22 April 2015)

The direct answer to your question is no it doesn't really matter if your horses are there all the time anyway. You will be souring the grass and spreading eggs whatever the weather. The grass will grow longer and be more sour around the poo if you leave it, but it will be sour all over the pasture if you spread it. If you leave it you will get long tufts around the poo, it won't be so evenly grazed, but they might get a few clean bits to eat occasionally


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## FionaM12 (22 April 2015)

I completely misunderstood this thread title. I came in thinking a "harrowing question" was something traumatic and upsetting. IE a different sort of harrowing altogether! :redface3:


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## JillA (23 April 2015)

Why do we all get so hung up on worm larvae? As I see it, if you have had an effective wormer programme for a couple of years or more, there will be precious few worms to complete a life cycle by depositing larvae on the grass, and those that do won't survive months without a live host. The alternative as regards parasite larvae is to mix species - get some sheep to rotate with horses?
I remove horses and harrow my hay field as soon as it is dry enough to get on after winter, the worms take down the manure and any worm larvae don't get to experience a live host for at least 6 months. I do poo pick the smaller paddocks, but OP, if you aren't allowed to poo pick and remove, can you deposit the poo in one place to become a latrine? Horses will generally use it 80% of the time. 
You could harrow and rest a winter paddock in early spring, and ditto a summer half in late autumn? That would give chance for the manure to be taken down and the ground to be clean enough for the following season? It does take months for the manure to disappear and there is a "zone of repugnance" around droppings horses won't graze, you are extending it to the whole field if you harrow and graze it too soon after.


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## Clodagh (23 April 2015)

OP, just harrow it. The grass doesn't get sour as the droppings are thinly spread. My paddocks look great with just harrowing, I do rest each one for 2 months afterwards but that won't make any difference to whether the grass is sour or not, mine are evenly grazed. 
Do what you can/want to do and walk away from this thread! Ity is not animal cruelty and as JillA says, assuming your horses don't have worms its not a huge problem anyway.


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## bmbonanza (23 April 2015)

Thanks Clodagh and others who have given useful info - much appreciated.   The vet has been today - routine visit - and I have discussed it with her. She is very happy with the plan and says it should help to minimise the likelihood of laminitis episodes this year.  She said the grass may not grow as much and that would be a real positive.


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## goldenchestnut (1 May 2015)

Intrigued  to know why your yard owner says no poo picking, very unusual.


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## bmbonanza (29 May 2015)

its to do with disposal -the person that used to take it cant take it now so cant generate it any more


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