# Petition to ban horse slaughter in the UK.



## navaho (17 March 2011)

Has anyone else seen this? Its a group on FB who are trying to get slaughter banned here, i have tried to point out a reasoned argument to them as to why it shouldn't be banned (mainly because they will just be pushing the problem overseas), i got shouted down. If anyone else has strong feelings either for or against it, im sure your comments would be most welcome on there. I feel like a little fish in amongst the sharks at the moment. Ive bowed out for now


----------



## friesian80 (17 March 2011)

Its a contraversial subject.  I really wish it could be banned in the UK, but first I think we need to sort out the overbreeding problem first.


----------



## YorksG (17 March 2011)

Why on earth would anyone be stupid enough to want to end slaughter of horses in the UK? What do people think would happen to the unwanted horses if horse slaughter was banned? Do people want to see the equivalent of the horrenous journeys and subsequent vile deaths experienced by horse from the USA, travelling to Mexico and Canada?
I would rather see the small slaughter houses re-opened and no animal being travelled further than 50 miles from its last 'home'


----------



## SpruceRI (17 March 2011)

YorksG said:



			Why on earth would anyone be stupid enough to want to end slaughter of horses in the UK? What do people think would happen to the unwanted horses if horse slaughter was banned? Do people want to see the equivalent of the horrenous journeys and subsequent vile deaths experienced by horse from the USA, travelling to Mexico and Canada?
I would rather see the small slaughter houses re-opened and no animal being travelled further than 50 miles from its last 'home'
		
Click to expand...


Totally agree.


----------



## bethwelshcob (17 March 2011)

fluffy bunny brigade at it again, thinking they are doing the right thing but making things a whole lot worse 
have you got a link to the facebooh group


----------



## Groom42 (17 March 2011)

YorksG said:



			Why on earth would anyone be stupid enough to want to end slaughter of horses in the UK? What do people think would happen to the unwanted horses if horse slaughter was banned? Do people want to see the equivalent of the horrenous journeys and subsequent vile deaths experienced by horse from the USA, travelling to Mexico and Canada?
I would rather see the small slaughter houses re-opened and no animal being travelled further than 50 miles from its last 'home'
		
Click to expand...

Ditto.


----------



## Amaranta (18 March 2011)

The mind boggles at the stupidity of the fluffy bunny brigade


----------



## Kallibear (18 March 2011)

YorksG said:



			I would rather see the small slaughter houses re-opened and no animal being travelled further than 50 miles from its last 'home'
		
Click to expand...

That is something I would gladly campaign for. For for all species. Having an slaughterhouse in ever large town would do animal welfare the world of good.


----------



## Enfys (18 March 2011)

friesian80 said:



			Its a contraversial subject.  I really wish it could be banned in the UK, QUOTE]

I am sorry, but you *are* joking aren't you?

Banning slaughter houses for horses is absolutely one of the worst things that could happen - more are needed, not less. 

Agree with everyone else, complete and utter thoughtlessness by the pony patters.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Chavhorse (18 March 2011)

I take it no thought has been given at all to just what will happen to the infirm and unwanted I am assuming in their little minds they will all be given lovely homes and lots of patting.

My friends in the states say that the worst thing that has happened there for horse Welfare is the banning of slaughter.

Yorks G another one agreeing with your idea.


----------



## Miss-rose (18 March 2011)

Originally Posted by YorksG  
Why on earth would anyone be stupid enough to want to end slaughter of horses in the UK? What do people think would happen to the unwanted horses if horse slaughter was banned? Do people want to see the equivalent of the horrenous journeys and subsequent vile deaths experienced by horse from the USA, travelling to Mexico and Canada?
I would rather see the small slaughter houses re-opened and no animal being travelled further than 50 miles from its last 'home'

agree with this also


----------



## Sandstone1 (18 March 2011)

I dont think they can have thought this through very well. However much we may hate the idea of horses being slaughtered, it is a much needed service with all the over breeding etc.
I would rather it happen in this country than the poor animals being shipped abroad with horrifing journeys to be killed in a slaughter house with with lilltle or no regulations.


----------



## ladyt25 (18 March 2011)

Oh in an ideal world it'd be lovely if the slaughter of horses was banned and all horses were loved and cared for til the end of their days, kept in lush green paddocks by knowledgeable people and PTS humanely at the end. Yes, that would be wonderful wouldn't it.

Unfortunately, in the real world that isn't the case. I hate the thought of animals going to slaughter (any to be honest, not just horses but that is cos i am far too soft and have to keep telling myself they don't actually know what's going to happen). However, I would MUCH rather horses travelled a short distance to a local slaughter house than being transported overseas for hours on end in dreadful conditions. THAT should be banned NOT slaughter in the country. These people are very misguided. I'd hate to see us in the state America is in.


----------



## Azmar (18 March 2011)

Inexperience in real world and mistaken in comparing animal welfare with the human emotions. I'm totally with YorksG. It is a mistake to look upon horses as fluffy bunnies and it shows lack of respect for their dignity.  All this whilst there is a strong campaign for euthanasia for humans.


----------



## Fuzznugget (18 March 2011)

YorksG said:



			Why on earth would anyone be stupid enough to want to end slaughter of horses in the UK? What do people think would happen to the unwanted horses if horse slaughter was banned? Do people want to see the equivalent of the horrenous journeys and subsequent vile deaths experienced by horse from the USA, travelling to Mexico and Canada?
I would rather see the small slaughter houses re-opened and no animal being travelled further than 50 miles from its last 'home'
		
Click to expand...

Agree with this 100%! The state of horse welfare has gone downhill in the US since the banning of slaughter. Travelling thousands of miles to get from one end of the country to either Mexico or Canada without many stops & access to water/food is not humane. The fluffy bunny brigade needs to stop trying to "help" horses. They've already f'ed things up over there enough, let's not follow in their footsteps.


----------



## soloequestrian (18 March 2011)

I wonder if those asking for horse slaughter to be stopped are all vegetarian and are campaigning equally hard to get the slaughter of sheep, cows, pigs etc stopped also?


----------



## SusannaF (18 March 2011)

I just finished reading a thesis written by an American studying for a masters  he wrote it before the effective end of slaughter* in the US, but after horse slaughter was criminalised in California.
Essentially, after slaughter was ended in California, the number of welfare cases rose sharply. Horses no longer had a value as meat, and that meant it was easier for people to dump them than to invest in the cost of humanely killing them.
The end of horse slaughter in the rest of the US just caused a 122% rise in the number of horses killed in Canadian abbatoirs. In other words, they went on being slaughtered; they just had a long, miserable journey beforehand.


* I understand it wasn't banned, but meat inspections at horse plants were ended, which effectively banned the practice.


----------



## Thistle (18 March 2011)

YorksG said:



			Why on earth would anyone be stupid enough to want to end slaughter of horses in the UK? What do people think would happen to the unwanted horses if horse slaughter was banned? Do people want to see the equivalent of the horrenous journeys and subsequent vile deaths experienced by horse from the USA, travelling to Mexico and Canada?
I would rather see the small slaughter houses re-opened and no animal being travelled further than 50 miles from its last 'home'
		
Click to expand...


Totally agree


----------



## Clippy (18 March 2011)

Perhaps those campaigning on FB would like to give permanent, loving homes to a few hundred horses who would otherwise have to go to an abbatoir? I'm sure it could be arranged.

They don't live in a real world, just a make believe one. I'd love to hear their alternative plans for these horses


----------



## perfect11s (18 March 2011)

YorksG said:



			Why on earth would anyone be stupid enough to want to end slaughter of horses in the UK? What do people think would happen to the unwanted horses if horse slaughter was banned? Do people want to see the equivalent of the horrenous journeys and subsequent vile deaths experienced by horse from the USA, travelling to Mexico and Canada?
I would rather see the small slaughter houses re-opened and no animal being travelled further than 50 miles from its last 'home'
		
Click to expand...

 Yes im with you on this totaly, The situation in the states is absultly terrible for horse welfare because of these stupid cretins. 
im totaly against this.. it would be a very dark day for horse  welfare...


----------



## perfect11s (18 March 2011)

navaho said:



			Has anyone else seen this? Its a group on FB who are trying to get slaughter banned here, i have tried to point out a reasoned argument to them as to why it shouldn't be banned (mainly because they will just be pushing the problem overseas), i got shouted down. If anyone else has strong feelings either for or against it, im sure your comments would be most welcome on there. I feel like a little fish in amongst the sharks at the moment. Ive bowed out for now 

Click to expand...

 Is it a group that carrys and weight or just a few nut jobs  do you think??  if it is a big powerfull presure group then we need to fight it, if its just a few random nut jobs then its best ignored ....


----------



## riding_high (18 March 2011)

i personally wouldn't send any of mine to a slaughter house but that's just my personal opinion/feeling. 
however i also know that if it wasn't for the slaughter  houses then the horses would either be abandoned and neglected OR travel hundreds of miles to another country in horrible conditions (for the horse) to be slaughtered.

as much as i hate slaughter houses i understand and accept there is a need for them.


----------



## Pipkin (18 March 2011)

navaho said:



			Has anyone else seen this? Its a group on FB who are trying to get slaughter banned here, i have tried to point out a reasoned argument to them as to why it shouldn't be banned (mainly because they will just be pushing the problem overseas), i got shouted down. If anyone else has strong feelings either for or against it, im sure your comments would be most welcome on there. I feel like a little fish in amongst the sharks at the moment. Ive bowed out for now 

Click to expand...

OOOO will send me the link on FB.....nothign like a bit of controversy 
I got shot down on horsechit chat for god forbid not agreeing that slaughter is horrific


----------



## smellsofhorse (18 March 2011)

ladyt25 said:



			Oh in an ideal world it'd be lovely if the slaughter of horses was banned and all horses were loved and cared for til the end of their days, kept in lush green paddocks by knowledgeable people and PTS humanely at the end. Yes, that would be wonderful wouldn't it.

Unfortunately, in the real world that isn't the case. I hate the thought of animals going to slaughter (any to be honest, not just horses but that is cos i am far too soft and have to keep telling myself they don't actually know what's going to happen). However, I would MUCH rather horses travelled a short distance to a local slaughter house than being transported overseas for hours on end in dreadful conditions. THAT should be banned NOT slaughter in the country. These people are very misguided. I'd hate to see us in the state America is in.
		
Click to expand...

I agree
my feelings exactly.


----------



## Maesfen (18 March 2011)

What a load of bull.  Utter madness and shows a complete disregard for horse welfare.


----------



## navaho (18 March 2011)

To anyone who does want a nosey here is the link:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/home.php?sk=group_174858042561885&notif_t=group_activity
At the moment it is just a few people, but with facebook it does take much to snowball something.


----------



## catnritchie (18 March 2011)

Maybe someone could start a group for better regulation of horse slaughter in the uk? I was going to suggest one for more slaughter houses but I can see that going down like a lead balloon with most people! Lol


----------



## mymare (18 March 2011)

Oh JUST in the mood for fluffy bunny *******ers today!!


----------



## RobinHood (18 March 2011)

I bet none of them have ever even been to a slaughterhouse.

I spent a lot of time at Potters last year and was very impressed with the professionalism of the staff in their handling of the horses. The horses are held in pens with straw, hay and water in the groups them come in. They are then then lead into the kill room one at a time (unless they're feral) and the man chats away to them so they have no idea what's coming. The room is then pressure washed before the next one. 

Slaughterhouses are a very important part of the horse industry because they provide a humane end for horses that would otherwise be passed from sale to sale, dealer to dealer in a downward spiral of neglect. If more people had the guts to send low value horses there instead of selling them on to an uncertain future we could avoid more cases like Amersham. Obviously in an ideal world they would be put down at home by a vet but let's face it if you have no money to feed your horses you also don't have the money to have them destroyed by a vet, which is where slaughterhouses play a vital role.


----------



## ISHmad (18 March 2011)

YorksG said:



			Why on earth would anyone be stupid enough to want to end slaughter of horses in the UK? What do people think would happen to the unwanted horses if horse slaughter was banned? Do people want to see the equivalent of the horrenous journeys and subsequent vile deaths experienced by horse from the USA, travelling to Mexico and Canada?
I would rather see the small slaughter houses re-opened and no animal being travelled further than 50 miles from its last 'home'
		
Click to expand...

Agree entirely with this.  Could lead more horses abandoned to their fate and all sorts.  Whilst personally my horses would always be PTS at home there will always be a need for slaugher houses.  The key is ensuring minimum upset to the horses both in terms of distance to travel and how they are handled and dealt with when there.

It is an emotional subject but the fluffy bunnies need to wake up and smell the coffee that banning this could lead to even worse deaths for horses.


----------



## friesian80 (18 March 2011)

friesian80 said:



			Its a contraversial subject.  I really wish it could be banned in the UK, but first I think we need to sort out the overbreeding problem first.[/
		
Click to expand...




Enfys said:



			I am sorry, but you *are* joking aren't you?

Banning slaughter houses for horses is absolutely one of the worst things that could happen - more are needed, not less. 

Agree with everyone else, complete and utter thoughtlessness by the pony patters.
		
Click to expand...


emmm why are so many slaughtered, BECAUSE OF THE SERIOUS PROBLEM OF OVERBREEDING MAINLY IN THE RACING INDUSTRY BUT ALSO BY PPL WHO THINK IF THEY OWN A MARE THEY NEED TO HAVE A FOAL FROM IT BECAUSE THEIR HORSE IS SO FANTASTIC! 

Their is no way horse slaughter could be stopped atm and im not saying that it should happen but if there were less bred in the first place there would be less who needed 'disposed' off.


----------



## Lady La La (18 March 2011)

Good grief, there are some seriously illinformed and quite frankly 'bonkers' people on that FB page


----------



## joeanne (18 March 2011)

Bonkers....totally bonkers!
Show them the welfare pictures of the irish horses, a place that needs MORE abatoirs not less!!!
YorksG is spot on, every large town should have an abatoir, but its the same old "I dont THAT near MY house"......


----------



## navaho (18 March 2011)

Lady La La said:



			Good grief, there are some seriously illinformed and quite frankly 'bonkers' people on that FB page 

Click to expand...

Oh so true!


----------



## Amaranta (18 March 2011)

A lot of them appear to be kids who always see things in black and white, that is their excuse but as for the misinformed moron who started the petition, she says she's done her research - I think not!


----------



## jhoward (18 March 2011)

friesian80 said:



			Its a contraversial subject.  I really wish it could be banned in the UK, but first I think we need to sort out the overbreeding problem first.
		
Click to expand...

QUESTION. 

What do you think would actually be achieved by banning slaughter for equines in the uk?


----------



## Allover (18 March 2011)

Just requested to join the FB page, cant wait to put my tuppence worth in!!


----------



## -Cadence- (18 March 2011)

I am vegetarian (mostly because I'm not bothered about the taste, it does nothing for me, animals shouldn't have to die for a food I don't like that much), but having lived in America and seen the effects of the slaughter ban, I would not want the same thing to happen in England.

I've seen the videos, I've seen the suffering - keeping slaughter prevents a lot of this suffering. I agree that licensed slaughter houses in very large town or city would solve a lot of the problems; no long journeys, and regular checks from animal welfare to ensure regulations are met will allow horses to die with more of the dignity the deserve.


----------



## olop (18 March 2011)

My mum joined that group & when I questioned her abuot it she said that she doesnt like to see horses killed.  My reply was if they are not slaughtered here they will endeavor a horrendous journey over to europe or wherever to face an even more horrible end.  She couldnt respond to that.

It really annoys me when people set these groups up, they have no thought as to what happens next.

I really do not want what happens to horses in the US to happen here it really would be a sad day.

Yes in an ideal world people would stop breeding all these horses that dont need to be bred but that is never going to happen is it


----------



## navaho (18 March 2011)

To be honest i actually think they dont seem bothered that they will get shipped overseas for slaughter, they just dont want it here in the UK....madness!! Do they not realise what they are saying?


----------



## Kenzo (18 March 2011)

YorksG said:



			Why on earth would anyone be stupid enough to want to end slaughter of horses in the UK? What do people think would happen to the unwanted horses if horse slaughter was banned? Do people want to see the equivalent of the horrenous journeys and subsequent vile deaths experienced by horse from the USA, travelling to Mexico and Canada?
I would rather see the small slaughter houses re-opened and no animal being travelled further than 50 miles from its last 'home'
		
Click to expand...

This ^^^


OP - some people are obviously completely out of their minds!


----------



## navaho (18 March 2011)

"At least starving horses/abandoned ones actually have a chance because people might report it. In a slaughterhouse they have nowhere to run, they're not free, and they sure as hell know whats going on before it happens. Animals deserve to die in a dignified manner, not in a tiny room with blood covering the floor :/"

OMG...i think the girl is totally barking...sorry but this post on there left me speachless!!


----------



## chestnut cob (18 March 2011)

They are all bonkers on that FB group!!


----------



## jinglejoys (18 March 2011)

Maybe they should go to India and see what happens to the cattle that can't be slaughtered for religious reasons!


----------



## Allover (18 March 2011)

chestnut cob said:



			They are all bonkers on that FB group!!
		
Click to expand...

Yep, realised that and promptly unjoined! 

Apparently the need 100,000 signatures on the petition and so far have............................. 47!!


----------



## -Cadence- (18 March 2011)

"We dnt like that they have to travel in cramped conditions, have no food water rest when travelin to places and the way they get treated e.g. Beaten straved before and when they go to the slaughter house the abuse they go throught and the way they are killed is horrendous ! I'm not for them going to be shot At home and I dnt like the fact they go to slaughter!!!!"

Dear Uninformed of Facebook,
What have you been smoking, can I have some please. (Is it you that supplies Charlie Sheen? )
Thanks


----------



## chestnut cob (18 March 2011)

Allover said:



			Yep, realised that and promptly unjoined! 

Apparently the need 100,000 signatures on the petition and so far have............................. 47!!
		
Click to expand...

PMSL.

Love the fact they all talk about what responsible horse owners they are as they know where all of their previous horses have gone to... if they were so responsible, they wouldn't have sold the horses in the first place.

My horse is a pet, no two ways about it, but IMHO there is too much sentimentality about horses in the UK.  I see no problem with horses going for meat.  I have no issue with ANY animal going for meat, so long as they all (whether horses, chickens, pigs or cows) are reared, kept and slaughtered humanely.  Better for those racehorses in Ireland to have gone to the abattoir than ended up in the hands of some well meaning numpty who has no idea how to handle a TB just out of racing...


----------



## navaho (18 March 2011)

Awww theyve deleted the post i started  nutters the lot of them!


----------



## ladyt25 (18 March 2011)

Ooh, now someone's put the link on I think I shall have to go on it tonight and see what they are saying! From the sounds of it, they are not intouch with reality at all. I mean, i sometimes live in cloud cuckoo land (it's quite nice sometimes! Lol) but even I have come to terms with the realities of life!


----------



## navaho (18 March 2011)

ladyt25 said:



			Ooh, now someone's put the link on I think I shall have to go on it tonight and see what they are saying! From the sounds of it, they are not intouch with reality at all. I mean, i sometimes live in cloud cuckoo land (it's quite nice sometimes! Lol) but even I have come to terms with the realities of life!
		
Click to expand...

I think you've missed most of the best posts, they are deleting alot of the stuff they dont like. Though ive just been told of for calling the knacker lorry the knacker lorry...well what else would you call it? "The bus to horsey heaven"?


----------



## rema (18 March 2011)

I have been having a bit of a battle on Horse chit chat site on fb with a young lad who thinks there is a person for EVERY horse and slaughterhouses should be closed down.He blames the slaughterhouses for killing horses that could of gone to a lovely home and the only reason people send horses to slaughter houses is because they are lazy and dont spend enough times with the horse.

http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=106563206091515&id=129239052859


----------



## Tinkerbee (18 March 2011)

Of course its much better to cram them in lorries and ship them hundreds of miles to be slaughtered.

Maybe its the same people who thought the Hunting Act would help foxes?

Takes all sorts...


----------



## ladyt25 (18 March 2011)

Ah, damn it navaho - I can't go on FB at work :-(   Mind you i bet there'll be more on later anyway!


----------



## Taffyhorse (18 March 2011)

Totally support the comment made by Yorks SG. 

And would also totally support the idea of more slaughterhouses - not just for horses but for all animals and increase the number of mobile slaughterhouses too. I would love to eat meat that's locally bred, reared (pref outdoors) and slaughtered.


----------



## brigantia (18 March 2011)

Here we go again. These discussions usually devolve into slagging matches. Both sides of the debate are entitled to their opinions, but I don't think throwing words like "cretin" and "bunny hugger" around actually enlightens anyone. For that matter, I don't believe that internet petitions solve anything other than drawing attention to the issue. 

Anyway, in the interest of trying to create actual dialogue rather than insult-hurling, here is what I posted in the last slaughter debate post. 


*Facts relating to the equine slaughter debate*

Here is evidence of a deliberate and misleading media campaign connecting the US slaughter ban to an increase in neglect. This is not true. In fact, abuse and neglect cases actually went down after the US slaughter ban went into effect:

http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/Deletin...ShortPaper.pdf

It is a fallacy to connect neglect, cruelty, and hoarding to a slaughter ban. If people do insist this is true, could they please cite impartial sources?

During the years when horse slaughter was still legal in the US, they were still exporting horses to Mexico and Canada. In addition, Canadian horses were being exported for slaughter in the United States. Thus, legal slaughter in the US did nothing to stop the transport of horses for slaughter to foreign countries.

Slaughter does not exist as a "service" for horse disposal. It is a profit-driven industry operating on the laws of supply and demand. Most horses who go to slaughter are healthy. The slaughter industry does not want ill or emaciated horses. This is why ex-race horses are slaughtered in large numbers--because they are available when they are still young and tender. Most old, neglected, or abandoned horses are not going to be desirable for meat. This is why slaughter isn't a quick fix solution to situations like the appalling neglect at Spindles Farm or most of the abandoned horses in Ireland. 

In the US, only about 1% of horses are exported for slaughter for human consumption--this is in accordance with the European demand for horse meat. Slaughter as a business is not going to increase and open abbatoirs in every corner of Britain just because people perceive an oversupply of unwanted horses. Demand drives the business, not the supply.

Mexico is not the only place in the world where slaughter has found to be inhumane. Two Canadian slaughter plants financed by Belgians to slaughter US and Canadian horses for the European meat market have now closed due to CFIA laws for multiple environmental and animal welfare violations.

In France, a major consumer of horse meat, consumption, and thus demand, for horse meat has declined. The slaughter industry won't vanish overnight, but meat consumption in general is in decline. 

Horses are generally not bred and raised as livestock meant to be eaten. They are raised as companion animals, work animals, and sport animals, rather than meatstock. Bute, ivermectin, fly spray, vaccinations, and anti-biotics will state that they are "not for use on animals intended for human consumption." All phenylbutazone products render an animal unfit for human consumption and are carcinogenic when consumed by humans. Given the choice, wouldn't you rather consume organic meat from animals specifically and humanely raised for meat?

Every horse that is rescued from slaughter and that is well-looked-after contributes to the economy, supporting feed merchants, livery yards, vets, trainers, saddleries, and farriers. 

Horse ownership is voluntary. With this choice comes responsibility. 

Not everyone who has ethical qualms about equine slaughter is a militant vegan bunny hugger. A critical mass of people succeeded in banning slaughter in the US. The same thing could happen in the European Union. As general meat consumption declines, we might be seeing a decline in the equine slaughter industry in any case.


----------



## pip6 (18 March 2011)

If you have a look at recent comments then ERR raises its very ugly head. No idea if they are behind this, but suspect if not they are hijacking it for free publicity for their 'cause' of rescuing from the slaughterhouses & selling on.


----------



## Amaranta (18 March 2011)

I would be more worried if any of those supporting a ban could string a sentence together that actually made any sense, many of them seem to be completely illiterate!


----------



## Pipkin (18 March 2011)

*counting down the hours until i cant get home and cause a ruckus* mwahahahahahahahaha 
fecking halfwits


----------



## Lady La La (18 March 2011)

Argh! I give up...   $*!£


----------



## mymare (18 March 2011)

I joined, said my bit and then she deleted it.


----------



## Lynnie1 (18 March 2011)

Taffyhorse said:



			Totally support the comment made by Yorks SG. 

And would also totally support the idea of more slaughterhouses - not just for horses but for all animals and increase the number of mobile slaughterhouses too. I would love to eat meat that's locally bred, reared (pref outdoors) and slaughtered.
		
Click to expand...

Totally support this view.  Think it would be absolutely the wrong thing form an animal welfare perspective.  Do people really think that by moving it out of the UK it simply wont happen any more??? 

To quote maxie on another post...

"Better to be humanely slaughtered under Dept of Agriculture & veterinary supervision under EU rules as close to home as possible. Abandonment and/or long distance travel to slaughter is not humane".


----------



## frustrated (18 March 2011)

Can i put the cat among the pigeons, I think that in order to preserve our native breeds it would be a good ideal for us to become eaters of horse meat. We could breed exmoors, or cleveland bays for the purpose and save them from extiction
I know that a lot of people would horifid but it could be a way for saving these breeds


----------



## Groom42 (18 March 2011)

Amaranta said:



			I would be more worried if any of those supporting a ban could string a sentence together that actually made any sense, many of them seem to be completely illiterate!
		
Click to expand...

Yep! Illiterate, _and_ barking - perfect combination to be taken seriously!


----------



## Lady La La (18 March 2011)

Well, Ive just been told that UK abattoirs dont treat horses with respect, because they dont bury them afterwards...

...and there's a cracking story on the anti slaughter page Im on on fb, telling of a foal that saw its mothers throat cut so went on a rampage killing 4 men before it was killed (and burried, mind...)


----------



## mymare (18 March 2011)

Lady La La said:



			Well, Ive just been told that UK abattoirs dont treat horses with respect, because they dont bury them afterwards...

...and there's a cracking story on the anti slaughter page Im on on fb, telling of a foal that saw its mothers throat cut so went on a rampage killing 4 men before it was killed (and burried, mind...)


Click to expand...

PMSL!!!  Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!  Love it!! Please, please give us the link for that one!


----------



## Allover (18 March 2011)

Lady La La said:



			Well, Ive just been told that UK abattoirs dont treat horses with respect, because they dont bury them afterwards...

...and there's a cracking story on the anti slaughter page Im on on fb, telling of a foal that saw its mothers throat cut so went on a rampage killing 4 men before it was killed (and burried, mind...)


Click to expand...

Did it not also take a mans eye out!!


----------



## Lady La La (18 March 2011)

Enjoy 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/STOP-Horse-Slaughter/36593282409?ref=ts

Guess who I am


----------



## Allover (18 March 2011)

I had to rejoin!!! Having fun i must say!


----------



## Maesfen (18 March 2011)

mymare said:



			I joined, said my bit and then she deleted it.
		
Click to expand...

Lovely, don't like it so nobody else can see it.

Perhaps it's time to start a FP page in favour of abattoirs for horses............


----------



## Rose Folly (18 March 2011)

Quite crazy. We need to keep slaughterhouses open and re-open the old ones, as everyone has said, so that no horse (or other species) has to travel for hours.  Can someone clever on here start an opposing petitio? I'll gladly sign up, for one!


----------



## Allover (18 March 2011)

Lady La La said:



			Enjoy 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/STOP-Horse-Slaughter/36593282409?ref=ts

Guess who I am 

Click to expand...

Did you mention a 10 year old per chance?


----------



## penhwnllys_stardust (18 March 2011)

Allover said:



			Did you mention a 10 year old per chance?
		
Click to expand...

That would be me


----------



## Rollin (18 March 2011)

I haven't read the whole thread but when it was banned in the USA horses were shipped to the HELL of Mexican slaughter houses where they still died but in more cruel circumstances.


----------



## Allover (18 March 2011)

penhwnllys_stardust said:



			That would be me 

Click to expand...



Shall have to go back and try and find Lady La La now!!


----------



## WoopsiiD (18 March 2011)

Lady La La said:



			Well, Ive just been told that UK abattoirs dont treat horses with respect, because they dont bury them afterwards...

...and there's a cracking story on the anti slaughter page Im on on fb, telling of a foal that saw its mothers throat cut so went on a rampage killing 4 men before it was killed (and burried, mind...)


Click to expand...

And the best bit is the novelist promised to post more 'stories' if anyone liked it!!! FROTFPMSL!!!

Story was the right word!


----------



## Fii (18 March 2011)

Having a quick read on facebook, it seems to me that half the people are very young, and really don't know what they are talking about.
 I won't join and put my tupence worth in, because they are not prepared to hear the other side to their argument, and it would just get shouted down........................ well unless i get really bored later.  

 Why does'nt someone invite the person who started it , on here, see if she can keep up the debate with people with more sense.


----------



## mymare (18 March 2011)

OMG they just get worse.


----------



## Pipkin (18 March 2011)

mymare said:



			OMG they just get worse.
		
Click to expand...

I am finding it all highly amusing....some chav with quite possibly the most atrocious grammar ever has started to put 10 pence in....
It`s taken me a good half hour to figure out bugger actually means burger!!! 
Apparently 180 cows go into one "bugger" that one big effin burger


----------



## Amaranta (18 March 2011)

ayla84 said:



			i am finding highly amusing....some chav with quite possibly the most atrocious grammar ever has started to put 10 pence in....
It`s taken me a good half hour to figure out bugger actually means burger!!! 
Apparently 180 cows go into one "bugger" that one big effin burger :d:d
		
Click to expand...

pmsl!


----------



## Allover (18 March 2011)

Ayla84 said:



			I am finding highly amusing....some chav with quite possibly the most atrocious grammar ever has started to put 10 pence in....
It`s taken me a good half hour to figure out bugger actually means burger!!! 
Apparently 180 cows go into one "bugger" that one big effin burger 

Click to expand...



I think we are winning though!! 

What about the farm boy with Turrettes (sp)


----------



## Pipkin (18 March 2011)

Allover said:





I think we are winning though!! 

What about the farm boy with Turrettes (sp) 

Click to expand...

The guy who says he works on a farm yet doesnt like killing animals...hmmmm.... I`m going to nickname Sloth, he seems very sloth like 

I quite like Ross he's the only sensible one on there even if he wants to ban pony pies


----------



## Allover (18 March 2011)

Ayla84 said:



			The guy who says he works on a farm yet doesnt like killing animals...hmmmm.... I`m going to nickname Sloth, he seems very sloth like 

I quite like Ross he's the only sensible one on there even if he wants to ban pony pies
		
Click to expand...

Ummmm Sloth.... how apt!!  

Ross comes across really well, i did think of mentioning HHO to him, invite him over for tea and cake!!


----------



## friesian80 (18 March 2011)

jhoward said:



			QUESTION. 

What do you think would actually be achieved by banning slaughter for equines in the uk?
		
Click to expand...

Nothing wold be achieved atm!!!  You'd probably have many more ex-racers getting part from piller to post and many more cases of cruelty.  But I just wonder why ppl say 'more slaughterhouses are needed' instead of saying the overbreeding issue on the UK needs to be addressed???


----------



## Allover (18 March 2011)

friesian80 said:



			Nothing wold be achieved atm!!!  But I just wonder why ppl say 'more slaughterhouses are needed' instead of saying the overbreeding issue on the UK needs to be addressed???
		
Click to expand...

Purely on the travel front i believe. Closer slaughter houses, shorter journeys.


----------



## MurphysMinder (18 March 2011)

Ayla84 said:



			I am finding it all highly amusing....some chav with quite possibly the most atrocious grammar ever has started to put 10 pence in....
It`s taken me a good half hour to figure out bugger actually means burger!!! 
Apparently 180 cows go into one "bugger" that one big effin burger 

Click to expand...



LOL.  I like the poster who says anyone who sees someone slaughter a horse should phone the police!


----------



## LaurenM (18 March 2011)

For those against slaughter - I'm assuming they have space to take all the dangerous horses? Ah sorted then!

There are worse ways to die, I'd much rather send a horse to a local slaughter house than have it suffer a lifetime of neglect.


----------



## mymare (18 March 2011)

Lady La La said:



			Enjoy 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/STOP-Horse-Slaughter/36593282409?ref=ts

Guess who I am 

Click to expand...

PMSL at this one!!!!


----------



## paisley (18 March 2011)

Oh yes, loved the 'phone the police' one! Almost as much as a call to boycott the Queens visit to Ireland because:
"Rember what her ancestors done to our ancestors mureded,tortured,and strip us of every thing that we had e.g are launage/religion"

I'm just boggled eyed at it all


----------



## Pipkin (18 March 2011)

Allover said:



			Ummmm Sloth.... how apt!!  

Ross comes across really well, i did think of mentioning HHO to him, invite him over for tea and cake!!
		
Click to expand...

I`m on the case 



MurphysMinder said:



			LOL.  I like the poster who says anyone who sees someone slaughter a horse should phone the police!
		
Click to expand...

Am def going to find this!!!

It seems they`ve all gone to bed, past their bedtime I suppose....damn!


----------



## meandmyself (18 March 2011)

paisley said:



			Oh yes, loved the 'phone the police' one! Almost as much as a call to boycott the Queens visit to Ireland because:
"Rember what her ancestors done to our ancestors mureded,tortured,and strip us of every thing that we had e.g are launage/religion"

I'm just boggled eyed at it all
		
Click to expand...

Did we take the schools from them too? :shakes head:

I think it's that 'out of sight, out out mind,' thing kicking in. So long as they don't have to see it, it can go on.


----------



## Amaranta (18 March 2011)

Luvvin the underaged and underinformed comment


----------



## Pipkin (18 March 2011)

paisley said:



			Oh yes, loved the 'phone the police' one! Almost as much as a call to boycott the Queens visit to Ireland because:
"Rember what her ancestors done to our ancestors mureded,tortured,and strip us of every thing that we had e.g are launage/religion"

I'm just boggled eyed at it all
		
Click to expand...

Wow!!!! The government need to chuck all the ££££ they have into education because it is clearly failing....

We`re all uneducated bitches apparently


----------



## Queenbee (18 March 2011)

Amaranta said:



			The mind boggles at the stupidity of the fluffy bunny brigade 

Click to expand...

there is nothing wrong with being a bunny hugger if the bunny hugger has a brain, in which case they would not be stupid enough to think that a ban was a good thing.  You will never shut them up in their argument, you can only hope that the government will just ignore them


----------



## Amaranta (18 March 2011)

queenbee said:



			there is nothing wrong with being a bunny hugger if the bunny hugger has a brain, in which case they would not be stupid enough to think that a ban was a good thing.  You will never shut them up in their argument, you can only hope that the government will just ignore them
		
Click to expand...

You are quite right queenbee, I tend to have a few bunny hugging traits myself, but like to think I have a brain too


----------



## penhwnllys_stardust (18 March 2011)

Did you see the part when one of the 10 year olds say they are in cntact with a goverment person haha


----------



## Pipkin (18 March 2011)

penhwnllys_stardust said:



			Did you see the part when one of the 10 year olds say they are in cntact with a goverment person haha 

Click to expand...

Cant believe they`ve gone to bed!!!  Sent OH up the pub and Im sat here waiting for another numpty to dazzle me with their intelligence!
I`d love to see the actual petition!!!

'Pitition 2 stop the saluter of osses'


----------



## miss_bird (18 March 2011)

Sorry not had time to read all replies just read the OP and it got my back up
Bloody ignorant irratating people, where do they think all the unwanted, over bred horses will end up.
It will be long horrid life draining journeys to slaughter houses in other countries.
Forget a petition to ban slaughter houses in the uk, there should be more of them in the uk


----------



## joy (18 March 2011)

Tell you what.  Let's slaughter all of the ignoramuses (Chambers Dictionary, we are ignorant, we ignore, take no notice).  Tough but fair.
And so to bed.


----------



## Amaranta (19 March 2011)

How about we start a facebook page encouraging humane slaughter of ignoramouses


----------



## mymare (19 March 2011)

Amaranta said:



			How about we start a facebook page encouraging humane slaughter of ignoramouses 

Click to expand...

Does it have to be humane??


----------



## Fire_Fly (19 March 2011)

Amaranta said:



			How about we start a facebook page encouraging humane slaughter of ignoramouses 

Click to expand...

I'll click like on that one!

They've gone quiet now, I think they've been sent to bed now.


----------



## millreef (19 March 2011)

Whoops!  I clicked on this link so I could click the petition for the ban on slaughter in the UK!  I must be a pony patter, bunny brigade,  do-gooder I suppose.


----------



## perfect11s (19 March 2011)

Amaranta said:



			How about we start a facebook page encouraging humane slaughter of ignoramouses 

Click to expand...

 Yikes!!! that's going to be a least 50% of the populace  then


----------



## perfect11s (19 March 2011)

millreef said:



			Whoops!  I clicked on this link so I could click the petition for the ban on slaughter in the UK!  I must be a pony patter, bunny brigade,  do-gooder I suppose.
		
Click to expand...

WHOOSH!!!!!!!! (parrot) !!!!!!!!!!


----------



## jhoward (19 March 2011)

friesian80 said:



			Nothing wold be achieved atm!!!  You'd probably have many more ex-racers getting part from piller to post and many more cases of cruelty.  But I just wonder why ppl say 'more slaughterhouses are needed' instead of saying the overbreeding issue on the UK needs to be addressed???
		
Click to expand...

and what would it acheive long term? do you think people are going to start burying their dangerous/ill horses in their back gardens? 

or are you happy that a horse may travel thousands of miles enjure a horrific journey then die slowley? 

I really fail to see how anyone could want to ban slaughter houses in the uk! to be fair if like europe we all got over ourself and ate pony pies then at least the over breeding would be going back in to the uk economy!


----------



## Janah (19 March 2011)

Another one to agree totaly with YORKSG

Jane


----------



## miss_bird (19 March 2011)

The reason i state that we need more slaughter houses is that at present there are only 2, turners and potters.
Neither of these slaughter houses are local to many people (but a darn sight more local than france) They are both regulated to a good standard.
So hence i would like to see more like them so that horse/ponies do not have to wait before being put out of their misery in a humane way.
the over breeding is a problem that will never be stopped whilst we have ignorant people that think a cute little foal is a money maker, or inbred, mixed bred ponies reproducing on common land that then sell only to the meat man at a silly price, also the racing industry will always over breed because they are all looking for THE ONE and you cannot guarantee getting that by breeding 2 top horses together, too many flukes rise to the top and so they should or the rest of us would never have a chance.
So yes as you can see i am all for more slaughter houses they are the the best thing that can happen to many of our unwanted horses


----------



## Alec Swan (19 March 2011)

Enfys said:



			.......Banning slaughter houses for horses is absolutely one of the worst things that could happen - more are needed, not less. .......
		
Click to expand...

Exactly this.

The problem has been compounded by the Medicinal Record in passports.  From what I can make of it,  if this section is signed by an owner,  or representative,  at any time during the horses life, then that animal will never be able to enter the food chain.  

What I don't understand,  is that the relevant section is in 2 parts.  Part A can be signed by an owner to prevent such slaughter,  and then part B,  is the reverse of this.  Does anyone know how it works,  in practice?  Were part A signed,  and dated,  then the horse was sold on and the new owner signed part B,  but at a later date,  then would the second signature and date reverse the original owners condition?  If anyone is certain of their facts,  then I'd be interested to hear of them.

The section itself is in place in the event that the animal has ever been administered a drug which would automatically bar it.  Though very rarely used for equines,  Rompon would be one example.  

I don't know of any charities,  or equine bodies,  who have the courage to support a much needed disposal system,  but the current system seems to be adding to the current problems,  and though many will disagree with me,  the time for change is now.

Alec.


----------



## brigantia (19 March 2011)

The reason i state that we need more slaughter houses is that at present there are only 2, turners and potters.
		
Click to expand...

But equine slaughter is a demand-driven *industry.* If there are only two slaughter houses in the entire UK, that presumably mirrors the demand. It's unlikely that opening further equine abbatoirs would be profitable. Slaughter is not a service but a profit driven business. 

From the articles I've read, Potters and Turners only slaughter horses one day a week and then on a massive scale, but they don't have a enough business to run their operations every day. Please correct me if this is not true. 

And they don't take elderly, ill, or starving animals, only animals that are suitable for meat. That means many of the horses who go to slaughter are young, ie ex-racehorses.


----------



## AndySpooner (19 March 2011)

I heard a very good programe on the wireless this morning about the plight of the Dartmoor ponies. Eleven ponies were killed on air which made heart rending listening, but, the slaughterman made some very valid points about the stress involved in what he had just done and the live export of ponies for slaughter in Italy. I really recommend anyone who cares about horses to listen to this programe, Open Country, is the name of it.

If horses and ponies need to be slaughtered, which of course has to happen in the real world, then it is our responsibility to do it in the UK where it is done to our checkable standards, not to abdicate responsibility for these animals to the horrors of long journeys and European slaughter houses.


----------



## brigantia (19 March 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/01/horseracing.sport

Article from October, 2006. An undercover journalist visits the two UK equine slaughter houses.


----------



## SusannaF (19 March 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I heard a very good programe on the wireless this morning about the plight of the Dartmoor ponies. Eleven ponies were killed on air which made heart rending listening, but, the slaughterman made some very valid points about the stress involved in what he had just done and the live export of ponies for slaughter in Italy. I really recommend anyone who cares about horses to listen to this programe, Open Country, is the name of it.

If horses and ponies need to be slaughtered, which of course has to happen in the real world, then it is our responsibility to do it in the UK where it is done to our checkable standards, not to abdicate responsibility for these animals to the horrors of long journeys and European slaughter houses.
		
Click to expand...

The programme is here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00zgwhl


----------



## friesian80 (19 March 2011)

jhoward said:



			and what would it acheive long term? do you think people are going to start burying their dangerous/ill horses in their back gardens? 

or are you happy that a horse may travel thousands of miles enjure a horrific journey then die slowley? 

I really fail to see how anyone could want to ban slaughter houses in the uk! to be fair if like europe we all got over ourself and ate pony pies then at least the over breeding would be going back in to the uk economy!
		
Click to expand...

Hmm I really dont get what your on about tbh, show me a horse owner who would ship their ill/dangerous horse overseas to be slaughtered rather than having them PTS and incinerated or given to the huntsmen?  If im not mistaken im pretty surer its illegal to ship horses out of the UK to be slaughtered
The horse slaughterhouses are mainly to dispose of unwanted exracers, or on the occasion a faimily pet is sent for slaughter (which I personally dont agree with but I do understand it is done).
Horse slaughter isnt the only way to deal with a horse who needs to be PTS, and the majority of horse owners will use another method.
As I said before instead of saying lets have more slaughterhouses why dont we try and address the problem of overbreeding?
Atm I know fine well if horse slaughter in ther UK was banned there would be many exracer who would be past from piller to post.
A lot have no problem with horse slaughter, they see it no different to slaughtering sheep, pigs, cows, chickens etc.
I live on a croft and dont have a problem carting the sheep even the male goats for slaughter, we kill our own ducks for xmas dinner, so im not living in a fluffy bunny world where I think no animals should be killed.  However I put my horses in the same class as my dogs and cats who I would never send to be slaughtered, when the time comes I will get a vet out to PTS.
As for the multi million business of horse racing perhaps if they were made to pay vet to PTS the ex-racers on site and incinerate, they may not be so quick to overbreed in the numbers they do.


----------



## brigantia (19 March 2011)

Hmm I really dont get what your on about tbh, show me a horse owner who would ship their ill/dangerous horse overseas to be slaughtered rather than having them PTS and incinerated or given to the huntsmen? If im not mistaken im pretty surer its illegal to ship horses out of the UK to be slaughtered
The horse slaughterhouses are mainly to dispose of unwanted exracers, or on the occasion a faimily pet is sent for slaughter (which I personally dont agree with but I do understand it is done).
Horse slaughter isnt the only way to deal with a horse who needs to be PTS, and the majority of horse owners will use another method.
		
Click to expand...

Good points, Friesan80.

AndySpooner, would it actually be legal under the current system to transport those Dartmoor ponies to Italy for slaughter?


----------



## SirenaXVI (19 March 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I heard a very good programe on the wireless this morning about the plight of the Dartmoor ponies. Eleven ponies were killed on air which made heart rending listening, but, the slaughterman made some very valid points about the stress involved in what he had just done and the live export of ponies for slaughter in Italy. I really recommend anyone who cares about horses to listen to this programe, Open Country, is the name of it.

If horses and ponies need to be slaughtered, which of course has to happen in the real world, then it is our responsibility to do it in the UK where it is done to our checkable standards, not to abdicate responsibility for these animals to the horrors of long journeys and European slaughter houses.
		
Click to expand...


Well said, completely agree with this


----------



## SirenaXVI (19 March 2011)

brigantia said:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/01/horseracing.sport

Article from October, 2006. An undercover journalist visits the two UK equine slaughter houses.
		
Click to expand...


That report is more damning for the racing industry, without the slaughterhouse to clean up the mess left by overbreeding, these horses would be suffering today.


----------



## SirenaXVI (19 March 2011)

brigantia said:



			Good points, Friesan80.

AndySpooner, would it actually be legal under the current system to transport those Dartmoor ponies to Italy for slaughter?
		
Click to expand...

Yes - these ponies DO go to the continent for slaughter, the regulations are regularly ignored by bin end dealers, there are few if any checks made at the ports.  By banning slaughter here you would be consigning more horses and ponies to this, just as the americans have done to theirs.

You would be far far better spending your time preventing the overbreeding of unwanted equines and trying to do something about the animals that come in and out of the UK for the meat market.


----------



## SusannaF (19 March 2011)

As I mentioned earlier, California criminalised not only horse slaughter, but also the sale of horses out of state _for_ slaughter. And it's very easy to get round that law, and nobody's got the resources to chase every truck of horses that leaves the country for the rest of their lives, just to make sure that they really are being sold as children's ponies and not handbags.


----------



## Amaranta (19 March 2011)

SusannaF said:



			As I mentioned earlier, California criminalised not only horse slaughter, but also the sale of horses out of state _for_ slaughter. And it's very easy to get round that law, and nobody's got the resources to chase every truck of horses that leaves the country for the rest of their lives, just to make sure that they really are being sold as children's ponies and not handbags.
		
Click to expand...


Exactly!  These people are so shortsighted it makes my eyes hurt!


----------



## mymare (19 March 2011)

There are 3 or 4 people on that FB page who I'd buy the first round for


----------



## penhwnllys_stardust (19 March 2011)

Who are the people on here who are on facebook? I'm Victoria nice to meet you all, it appears that the 'antis' are all in school


----------



## AndySpooner (19 March 2011)

I'm at a bit of a loss here to understand what exactly people want to do with horses that are unwanted.

Are we proposing to ban all horses being dispatched in a slaughter house and the use of their carcass in the animal or human food chain? Is this being confused with horses being PTS through age or illness?

Are horses different to other animals that end up in the food chain because they have been 'pets'. What about the TB's that are not going to make it in the racing industry, that cannot be found other homes, they are not and never have been 'pets'.

There are not enough horse charities to cope with the annual amount of horses needing re homing, and are these places really effective.

Surely it is better for these unwanted horses to be killed in UK slaughterhouses rather than exported live, as just the racing industry produce more horses than can be properly kept.

I would have thought that a nation which likes to think of itself as animal lovers would want to stop the live export of all animals for slaughter as too cruel. The most effective way to transport animals is in freezer wagons, dead of course, which would mean the increase of local slaughterhouses, many of which were closed through EEC regulations some years ago, to negate the need to transport animals long distances within the UK, let alone abroad.

Banning horse slaughter in the UK cannot be a serious argument.


----------



## Lady La La (19 March 2011)

penhwnllys_stardust said:



			Who are the people on here who are on facebook? I'm Victoria nice to meet you all, it appears that the 'antis' are all in school 

Click to expand...

Im jenny *waves*


----------



## brighteyes (19 March 2011)

'Slaughter' is necessary because a) not every horse is able to live a useful or even comfortable life and b) when a useful and comfortable life is over...then what?

I actually think the private and humane destruction we call PTS at 'home' is slaughter by another name but is no less kind or harsh than that carried out by licensed slaughterers like Turners and Potters, or the hunt.  It's arguable that the last trip might be unnecessarily stressful, but it's pretty much certain it won't be as bad as being hauled halfway across Europe, to end your life in an Italian (or worse) meat factory.

Overbreeding HAS to be addressed - that's the first step to freeing the burden of the welfare organisations in sorting out the neglect and cruelty to unwanted equines.

That the wild moorland ponies need to breed in such numbers that they produce a surfeit of foals because they need to keep the moorland 'nice' is questionable, and a whole other story.

But the fact remains that until people with mares (and that includes probably most of those in the Breeding Forum who will vociferously defend their reasons and motives behind this years crop and the many 'which stallion' posts) take a year or more out of the scene and reduce the numbers bred drastically, the job for people who can take the rubbish out of the equation will remain.  It will be there afterwards, but the demand for their services will be reduced.

Do we need slaughter houses?  Yes, sadly, for many reasons we do. I have no objections to the humane and timely disposal of any creature at all, nor of the use of the remains after.  It's just not for me - I'm a pts at home then bury person and when I no longer can do this, I will stop keeping horses. And I won't ever breed them, either.

Listen to the chap at the end of this*  programme.  The pony population would be safe in his hands.

Do not get me started on the racehorse industry. For me, that's possibly a worse offender with its deliberate and wholly greed motivated breeding, unutterably awful 'wastage' and too often irresponsible disposal of the failed and broken.

**Warning*, the uncensored shooting by captive bolt of a Dartmoor pony, under controlled and 'empathetic' conditions, is at the beginning of the broadcast but ample time is given for you to turn the sound down and unsurprisingly, the reporter is unable to deal with more than one experience, so give it about 15 seconds.


----------



## friesian80 (19 March 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I'm at a bit of a loss here to understand what exactly people want to do with horses that are unwanted.
* If a horse is unwanted and cant be sold on them ppl have the option of PTS by the vet,
or to contact the huntsman to collect the horse, why do we need to travel this horse a lengthy journey to a slaughterhouse (with only 2 Horse slaughterhouses im guessing the majority do have a long journey) so owner can make a few bucks on the carcus? *

Are horses different to other animals that end up in the food chain because they have been 'pets'. What about the TB's that are not going to make it in the racing industry, that cannot be found other homes, they are not and never have been 'pets'.
* I do class my horses as a pet, like I would my dog and cat, I wouldnt send any of them off to slaughter.  As for the thousands of TB's who are slaughtered by the multi million pound industry of racing - why should the racing industry not be made to pay for the huge disposal of the unwanted horses they send to slaughter, perhaps this would help the problem of overbreeding if they were made to pay the vet to PTS each horse and incinerate. At the moment they dont think twice about overbreeding the racehorses as they make profit on the horses who are slaughtered.*

There are not enough horse charities to cope with the annual amount of horses needing re homing, and are these places really effective.
*  Im not saying lets keep all these unwanted horses alive (im more saying lets address the problem of overbreeding)  I believe the slaughterhouses encourage overbreeding. *

Surely it is better for these unwanted horses to be killed in UK slaughterhouses rather than exported live, as just the racing industry produce more horses than can be properly kept.  *Exactly the horse slaughterhouses are just funding the overbreeding of TB's. *

I would have thought that a nation which likes to think of itself as animal lovers would want to stop the live export of all animals for slaughter as too cruel. The most effective way to transport animals is in freezer wagons, dead of course, which would mean the increase of local slaughterhouses, many of which were closed through EEC regulations some years ago, to negate the need to transport animals long distances within the UK, let alone abroad.
*  It is illegal to transport horses out the country for slaughter, and there is no way the racing industry would get away with transporting all their unwanted TB's out the country to be killed elsewhere! They would be made to deal with the problem of their system which overbreeds thousands of horses every year *

Banning horse slaughter in the UK cannot be a serious argument.* I disagree *

Click to expand...

I know most on this thread totally disagree with me but perhaps some of the things ive said are worth thinking about?????  I dont haow thve all the answers to how we can stop overbreeding in the UK but surely to increase the slaughterhoses isnt the answer.


----------



## sprytzer (19 March 2011)

And i am TIA ....hello all


----------



## Changes (19 March 2011)

I hardly know where to start....... 



friesian80 said:



			If a horse is unwanted and cant be sold on them ppl have the option of PTS by the vet, or to contact the huntsman to collect the horse, why do we need to travel this horse a lengthy journey to a slaughterhouse (with only 2 Horse slaughterhouses im guessing the majority do have a long journey) so owner can make a few bucks on the carcus?
		
Click to expand...

Some people can't afford to put a horse down. Frequently, these 'lovely caring owners' sell their older horses on to dealers, to get rid of them, therefore putting the horse through the misery of unknown places, people, and likely a great deal less care than they are used to receiving because they've suddenly become a commodity. And if they're lucky they go to Potters or Turners quite quickly, and not doing the rounds of the markets first, or getting shipped abroad. 
What in your world would you have them do? I'd rather see them go straight to slaughter.



friesian80 said:



			I do class my horses as a pet, like I would my dog and cat, I wouldnt send any of them off to slaughter. As for the thousands of TB's who are slaughtered by the multi million pound industry of racing - why should the racing industry not be made to pay for the huge disposal of the unwanted horses they send to slaughter, perhaps this would help the problem of overbreeding if they were made to pay the vet to PTS each horse and incinerate. At the moment they dont think twice about overbreeding the racehorses as they make profit on the horses who are slaughtered.
		
Click to expand...

See, here's the root of the problem. This is not about YOU, or YOUR feelings, it's about facing the very real overcrowding problems currently faced by the UK herd. 
As for the attack on the racing industry - making wild accusations hardly helps your argument. The max price for a fully grown racehorse at an abattoir will be no more than £450. Do you really think the industry profits for each horse at that price? That won't even cover stud fees for most of them, never mind keep and nutrition and all the other costs associated with raising foals. 



friesian80 said:



			Im not saying lets keep all these unwanted horses alive (im more saying lets address the problem of overbreeding) I believe the slaughterhouses encourage overbreeding........ the horse slaughterhouses are just funding the overbreeding of TB's.
		
Click to expand...

Why do you think that? All the slaughterhouses do is mop up the unwanted. Maybe how SOME of the p i k e y s raise horses would make money, but mostly those profiting are the dealers who buy from selfish people who won't make the decision to have their own horses euthanased. 



friesian80 said:



			It is illegal to transport horses out the country for slaughter, and there is no way the racing industry would get away with transporting all their unwanted TB's out the country to be killed elsewhere! They would be made to deal with the problem of their system which overbreeds thousands of horses every year
		
Click to expand...

You really need to get your facts straight before you start flinging accusations about. 
1. It is NOT illegal to export horses for slaughter.
2. It's not the racing industry than transports horses abroad for slaughter, it's the scumbag dealers. 

I wonder why you are so convinced that it is only racehorses that go for slaughter? A study done in the US found that 70% of the horses sent for slaughter were riding horses. 



friesian80 said:



			I know most on this thread totally disagree with me but perhaps some of the things ive said are worth thinking about????? I dont haow thve all the answers to how we can stop overbreeding in the UK but surely to increase the slaughterhoses isnt the answer.
		
Click to expand...

No, you haven't a clue what you are arguing, and you are not seeing the bigger picture. Whilst I agree wholeheartedly about the overbreeding, it is across the board, not confined to racing. 
Horses are a leisure industry now, and as such tend to be passed around far more than they used to be. That however, is a whole new thread in itself. 
Whilst horses are treated as currency and status, they will ultimately become unwanted at some stage in their lives. With the costs of euthanasia and disposal escalating, the abattoir is a very real need.

You are doing horses such a huge disservice by refusing to accept that.


----------



## AndySpooner (19 March 2011)

Changes said:



			I hardly know where to start....... 


Some people can't afford to put a horse down. Frequently, these 'lovely caring owners' sell their older horses on to dealers, to get rid of them, therefore putting the horse through the misery of unknown places, people, and likely a great deal less care than they are used to receiving because they've suddenly become a commodity. And if they're lucky they go to Potters or Turners quite quickly, and not doing the rounds of the markets first, or getting shipped abroad. 
What in your world would you have them do? I'd rather see them go straight to slaughter.



See, here's the root of the problem. This is not about YOU, or YOUR feelings, it's about facing the very real overcrowding problems currently faced by the UK herd. 
As for the attack on the racing industry - making wild accusations hardly helps your argument. The max price for a fully grown racehorse at an abattoir will be no more than £450. Do you really think the industry profits for each horse at that price? That won't even cover stud fees for most of them, never mind keep and nutrition and all the other costs associated with raising foals. 



Why do you think that? All the slaughterhouses do is mop up the unwanted. Maybe how SOME of the p i k e y s raise horses would make money, but mostly those profiting are the dealers who buy from selfish people who won't make the decision to have their own horses euthanased. 






Ii
You really need to get your facts straight before you start flinging accusations about. 
1. It is NOT illegal to export horses for slaughter.
2. It's not the racing industry than transports horses abroad for slaughter, it's the scumbag dealers. 

I wonder why you are so convinced that it is only racehorses that go for slaughter? A study done in the US found that 70% of the horses sent for slaughter were riding horses. 



No, you haven't a clue what you are arguing, and you are not seeing the bigger picture. Whilst I agree wholeheartedly about the overbreeding, it is across the board, not confined to racing. 
Horses are a leisure industry now, and as such tend to be passed around far more than they used to be. That however, is a whole new thread in itself. 
Whilst horses are treated as currency and status, they will ultimately become unwanted at some stage in their lives. With the costs of euthanasia and disposal escalating, the abattoir is a very real need.

You are doing horses such a huge disservice by refusing to accept that.
		
Click to expand...

so agree.


----------



## Fii (19 March 2011)

QR, i don't think any horse owner will make any money at the moment, from sending a horse to slaughter, I think i am right in saying that you will get about 20p a pound , hardly going to make your furtune with horse meat eh.


----------



## friesian80 (19 March 2011)

Id like to point out im not trying to fight for horse slaughter to be stopped, im not claiming to have all the answer or know all the facts, im just discussing the issue.
I know everyone on this thread is for horse slaughter and I respect their views and thoughts I just wanted to know if pll agreed that if the overbreeding issue was addressed perhaps horse slaughter could be reduced.  Surely if it wasnt so easy for the racing industry to dispose of the TB's the overbreeding numbers might be reduced, should this not be discussed or do we all just agree make more horse slaughterhouses so more horses can be slaughtered? 

Im willing to listen to those who do have facts and figues and know what they are speaking about, it just seems a lot of ppl jump on the bandwagon and agree with everyone else for fear of upsetting someone


----------



## Changes (19 March 2011)

friesian80 said:



			Surely if it wasnt so easy for the racing industry to dispose of the TB's the overbreeding numbers might be reduced, should this not be discussed
		
Click to expand...

But WHY do you think it's about TBs????? Where are you getting your information from?

Read this ARTICLE, and check out the facts and figures from the American slaughter statisitics. 
America has a similar ratio of racehorses to horses doing other jobs as the UK.


----------



## Fii (19 March 2011)

friesian80 said:



			Hmm I really dont get what your on about tbh, show me a horse owner who would ship their ill/dangerous horse overseas to be slaughtered rather than having them PTS and incinerated or given to the huntsmen?  If im not mistaken im pretty surer its illegal to ship horses out of the UK to be slaughtered
The horse slaughterhouses are mainly to dispose of unwanted exracers, or on the occasion a faimily pet is sent for slaughter (which I personally dont agree with but I do understand it is done).
Horse slaughter isnt the only way to deal with a horse who needs to be PTS, and the majority of horse owners will use another method.
As I said before instead of saying lets have more slaughterhouses why dont we try and address the problem of overbreeding?
Atm I know fine well if horse slaughter in ther UK was banned there would be many exracer who would be past from piller to post.
A lot have no problem with horse slaughter, they see it no different to slaughtering sheep, pigs, cows, chickens etc.
I live on a croft and dont have a problem carting the sheep even the male goats for slaughter, we kill our own ducks for xmas dinner, so im not living in a fluffy bunny world where I think no animals should be killed.  However I put my horses in the same class as my dogs and cats who I would never send to be slaughtered, when the time comes I will get a vet out to PTS.
As for the multi million business of horse racing perhaps if they were made to pay vet to PTS the ex-racers on site and incinerate, they may not be so quick to overbreed in the numbers they do.
		
Click to expand...

SOME people do sell their dangerouse horses on to someone else, from where they may end up abroad. Not nesasarely for meat, but thats what will happen.
 Mine went to Potters, because once she was booked in, she was'nt going to end up anywhere else, with anyone else!!!!!!!!!!!
 You are very mistaken if you think the majority of horse that go to kill are race horses, all sorts go, they are inundated at the moment,

 One thing i would like you to think about............
 If tomorro you, for whatever reason lost all your money, nothing left, you onley own the clothes you wear, what do you do with your horse.
 You can't afford the vet, or the hunt and it might take you months to sell them, and in the meantime you can't afford to feed them........ What do you do????????????
 Horrible thought i know, but it could happen to any of us.
 And has happened to a lot of people.


----------



## friesian80 (19 March 2011)

Changes said:



			See, here's the root of the problem. This is not about YOU, or YOUR feelings, it's about facing the very real overcrowding problems currently faced by the UK herd. 
As for the attack on the racing industry - making wild accusations hardly helps your argument. The max price for a fully grown racehorse at an abattoir will be no more than £450. Do you really think the industry profits for each horse at that price? That won't even cover stud fees for most of them, never mind keep and nutrition and all the other costs associated with raising foals. 

*Im not saying the slaughter payment is going to cover the cost of the horse from birth im just saying they are getting paid to send it to slaughter, would having to pay for it to be PTS not perhaps make them cut back the amount they slaughter each year?  *



Why do you think that? All the slaughterhouses do is mop up the unwanted. Maybe how SOME of the p i k e y s raise horses would make money, but mostly those profiting are the dealers who buy from selfish people who won't make the decision to have their own horses euthanased. 
* What I meant by that is what I stated above perhaps if they had to pay to have each horse PTS there would be less overbreeding but as it doesnt cost a penny to have the horse slaughtered the slaughterhouses are getting used over any other method. *



You really need to get your facts straight before you start flinging accusations about. 
1. It is NOT illegal to export horses for slaughter.
2. It's not the racing industry than transports horses abroad for slaughter, it's the scumbag dealers. 

*Im not saying its the racing industry who transport horse out the country for slaughter im saying if the slaughterhouses were not there the racing ind. would have to pay to dispose of their horses (they couldnt transport all their horses out the country to be slaughtered elsewhere......that is what I believe anyway, if they in fact could them my whole opinion on this matter would be very different! *


I wonder why you are so convinced that it is only racehorses that go for slaughter? A study done in the US found that 70% of the horses sent for slaughter were riding horses. 
*  Im not saying its just racehorses but believe it makes up a large percentage of horses in the UK who are sent for slaughter *



No, you haven't a clue what you are arguing, and you are not seeing the bigger picture. Whilst I agree wholeheartedly about the overbreeding, it is across the board, not confined to racing.

* I never said it was confined to the racing industry, I just believe the racing industry are responsible for a lot of it * 
Horses are a leisure industry now, and as such tend to be passed around far more than they used to be. That however, is a whole new thread in itself. 
Whilst horses are treated as currency and status, they will ultimately become unwanted at some stage in their lives. With the costs of euthanasia and disposal escalating, the abattoir is a very real need.

You are doing horses such a huge disservice by refusing to accept that.

*  where did I say I didnt accept that horse slaughter is needed, I have in fact throught this thread said there is no way the slaughter of horses could be stopped right now in the UK *

Click to expand...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


----------



## friesian80 (19 March 2011)

Changes said:



			But WHY do you think it's about TBs????? Where are you getting your information from?

Read this ARTICLE, and check out the facts and figures from the American slaughter statisitics. 
America has a similar ratio of racehorses to horses doing other jobs as the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Where did I say it was ALL about TB's??????  I will repeat myself and say I think a large percentage of horses slaughtered in the Uk are TB's and believe if that issue was addressed horse slaughter in the UK would be dramatically reduced.



Fii said:



			SOME people do sell their dangerouse horses on to someone else, from where they may end up abroad. Not nesasarely for meat, but thats what will happen.
 Mine went to Potters, because once she was booked in, she was'nt going to end up anywhere else, with anyone else!!!!!!!!!!!
 You are very mistaken if you think the majority of horse that go to kill are race horses, all sorts go, they are inundated at the moment,

*  So the majority of horses sent for slaughter aren't from the racing industry??  Really?  I respect your reason for sending your horse to be slaughtered as you say many do get past from piller to post before they do infact end up slaughtered but is the hunstman not an option?  *

 One thing i would like you to think about............
 If tomorro you, for whatever reason lost all your money, nothing left, you onley own the clothes you wear, what do you do with your horse.
 You can't afford the vet, or the hunt and it might take you months to sell them, and in the meantime you can't afford to feed them........ What do you do????????????
 Horrible thought i know, but it could happen to any of us.
 And has happened to a lot of people.
*  I was under the impression the hunstman was free of charge? I would never judge someone who had to send their horse to be slaughtered under these circumstances.  Im not trying to judge anyone here I am just discussing the possability of addressing the overbreeding problem over the choice to open more slaughterhouses *

Click to expand...


----------



## brigantia (19 March 2011)

I think one thing we all agree on is that overbreeding needs to be addressed. 

So what are the facts re transport: is it legal or not to transport UK horses abroad for slaughter? 

Re unwanted horses, the obvious alternative solution is euthansia--via injection or a bullet by someone who knows what they're doing in the horse's familiar environment. 

In fact, many unwanted, surplus horses are unsuitable for slaughter--the meat industry doesn't want diseased or emaciated horses.

Re "we need more slaughterhouses"--if it were profitable, there would be more slaughterhouses. Demand rules the business, not supply.


----------



## thatsmygirl (19 March 2011)

There's not a lot more to say it's all been said.

But you stupid facebook people need to grow up, face facts about slaughter, it will happen, always will and is the best ending for some horses to save suffering long term. 

Potters are busy and when I rung them they had a long waiting list so we need more slaughter houses to deal with it. 

Grow up and face facts. 

You stupid stupid lot


----------



## jadelovescassie (19 March 2011)

Once upon a time I was also very naive like most of the people on that silly FB group. After reading a lot of posts on this forum about horse slaughter I have definitely changed my mind!

In an ideal world I think all of us would love for every horse to have a nice home and be cared for by their owner. However in reality that isn't the case. The slaughter of horses isn't something I like or want, but it is a necessity. Rather them have a more comfortable ending close to home rather than be transported miles overseas in terrible conditions. I really don't understand how these people trying to shut down the UK slaughterhouses think they are going to help the horses, it's simple, they'll cause most unwanted horses in the UK a much more horrific and slow death.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (19 March 2011)

brigantia said:



			Re "we need more slaughterhouses"--if it were profitable, there would be more slaughterhouses. Demand rules the business, not supply.
		
Click to expand...

Until EEC regulations enforced a change there were many small slaughterhouses all over the country which slaughtered all kinds of farm animals and horses from the local area, they would also come out to 'fallen stock' and emergencies.  
Then the EEC brought out so many regulations that there wasn't enough profit to be made by small slaughterhouses.  And I don't mean that slaughtermen couldn't make millions but that they couldn't make a reasonable living (just like many RS owners can't, because of all the regulations).
So most of the slaughterhouses closed down, which meant that ALL stock, not just horses, had to travel further from the farm, or wherever.
Those who are suggesting that there should be more slaughterhouses are not wanting to slaughter more animals but would rather that no animal had to travel more than a minimum mileage to be slaughtered.
We are very fortunate in my area as although the local slaughterhouse closed, it is now run as an 'Equine Crematorium'.  The owner or one of her staff will come out to shoot the horse at home, or the horse-owner can arrange for it to be taken there at a specified time.  She will also collect a horse which the vet has euthanased.  A very valuable service as few people can bury their horses at home.
Why should people be forced to have a horse euthanased (& I agree with brighteyes, it is still slaughter) by injection?  I certainly don't want that for my horses.
There is far too much sentiment from people with very little experience and even less sense, IMO.


----------



## Amaranta (19 March 2011)

brigantia said:



			I think one thing we all agree on is that overbreeding needs to be addressed. 

So what are the facts re transport: is it legal or not to transport UK horses abroad for slaughter? 

Re unwanted horses, the obvious alternative solution is euthansia--via injection or a bullet by someone who knows what they're doing in the horse's familiar environment. 

In fact, many unwanted, surplus horses are unsuitable for slaughter--the meat industry doesn't want diseased or emaciated horses.

Re "we need more slaughterhouses"--if it were profitable, there would be more slaughterhouses. Demand rules the business, not supply.
		
Click to expand...


No it is not illegal to transport UK horses for slaughter, it does and is happening - right now, the bin end dealers don't care whether it is a coloured cob, a welsh hill pony or a racehorse, all get them good money on the continent.

I think you will find the the ratio of horses unfit for the meat market is very small in comparison to those that are suitable.  Aside from that, it is not unknown for a bin end dealer to falsify a passport!  There are practically no checks made at the ports so it is relatively easy for them to bring anything in or out of the country.

It IS profitable, the remaining two houses in the UK have waiting lists - we DO need more to deal with the massive upsurge in unwanted horses, the alternatives to a quick death are starvation, neglect and a long journey to God knows where.


----------



## Amaranta (19 March 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I'm at a bit of a loss here to understand what exactly people want to do with horses that are unwanted.

Are we proposing to ban all horses being dispatched in a slaughter house and the use of their carcass in the animal or human food chain? Is this being confused with horses being PTS through age or illness?

Are horses different to other animals that end up in the food chain because they have been 'pets'. What about the TB's that are not going to make it in the racing industry, that cannot be found other homes, they are not and never have been 'pets'.

There are not enough horse charities to cope with the annual amount of horses needing re homing, and are these places really effective.

Surely it is better for these unwanted horses to be killed in UK slaughterhouses rather than exported live, as just the racing industry produce more horses than can be properly kept.

I would have thought that a nation which likes to think of itself as animal lovers would want to stop the live export of all animals for slaughter as too cruel. The most effective way to transport animals is in freezer wagons, dead of course, which would mean the increase of local slaughterhouses, many of which were closed through EEC regulations some years ago, to negate the need to transport animals long distances within the UK, let alone abroad.

Banning horse slaughter in the UK cannot be a serious argument.
		
Click to expand...

Bloomin eck Andy that's the second time I find myself totally agreeing with you


----------



## Alec Swan (19 March 2011)

thatsmygirl said:



			There's not a lot more to say it's all been said.

But you stupid facebook people need to grow up, face facts about slaughter, it will happen, always will and is the best ending for some horses to save suffering long term. 

Potters are busy and when I rung them they had a long waiting list so we need more slaughter houses to deal with it. 

Grow up and face facts. 

You stupid stupid lot
		
Click to expand...

As your user name would describe you!!  A bit strong,  perhaps,  but in essence,  correct!!

Alec.


----------



## Allover (19 March 2011)

jadelovescassie said:



			In an ideal world I think all of us would love for every horse to have a nice home and be cared for by their owner. However in reality that isn't the case. The slaughter of horses isn't something I like or want, but it is a necessity. Rather them have a more comfortable ending close to home rather than be transported miles overseas in terrible conditions. I really don't understand how these people trying to shut down the UK slaughterhouses think they are going to help the horses, it's simple, they'll cause most unwanted horses in the UK a much more horrific and slow death.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly this for me too, and what i have been trying to say on the FB page (Chelsey here!!! Helloooooo )

It is not the right time to be closing slaughter houses and never will be until over breeding is sorted out. 

I would never, ever send one of my horses off to the slaughter house, it would be done at "home", with me by their side.


----------



## Changes (19 March 2011)

Friesian, just read this contradictory sentence that you wrote-




			Where did I say it was ALL about TB's?????? I will repeat myself and say I think a large percentage of horses slaughtered in the Uk are TB's and believe if that issue was addressed horse slaughter in the UK would be dramatically reduced.
		
Click to expand...


Now find me statisitcs proving that the horses in abattoirs are a large percentage TBs. I am fully confident that you won't because they are not.  

Taken from the blog I linked to above, bearing in mind America has a similar horse society to our own -



_
*Observational studies conducted in 2001 reveal that riding horses make up 74% of the horses processed for meat as opposed to draft or other horse types.


US Department of Agriculture (USDA) export records on US horses shipped to Canadian processing plants in 2002-2005 reveal 70% were western type horses, 11% were English or Thoroughbred type horses, 3.6% were draft type horses, and the rest included various breeds or types of horses or mules*.

This suggests that horse owners need to become more responsible about what to do with their individual horses that they no longer want. Its not just other peoples horses that go for slaughter, it could easily be the horse you sold because it didnt fit your ambitions or got too old to compete  it is up to the individual owner to take responsibility for their horses future.

A horse should not be just a commodity._

Click to expand...

Also, for whoever questioned it, it is NOT illegal to transport horses abroad for slaughter.


----------



## friesian80 (19 March 2011)

If British horse slaughter was banned would it be legal to ship these horses overseas for slaughter?

If so does someone have a link to a site where it confims this please?


----------



## friesian80 (19 March 2011)

Changes said:



			Friesian, just read this contradictory sentence that you wrote-




Now find me statisitcs proving that the horses in abattoirs are a large percentage TBs. I am fully confident that you won't because they are not.  

Taken from the blog I linked to above, bearing in mind America has a similar horse society to our own -


Also, for whoever questioned it, it is NOT illegal to transport horses abroad for slaughter.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/01/horseracing.sport

This among many other sites informs me that a large percentage of TB's bred for the track end up slaughtered, mass overbreeding in the industry is what Id like to address.


----------



## Changes (19 March 2011)

friesian80 said:



			If British horse slaughter was banned would it be legal to ship these horses overseas for slaughter?

If so does someone have a link to a site where it confims this please?
		
Click to expand...



There are no sites saying it is legal to ship them abroad. There would only be laws saying it was ILLEGAL to ship them abroad, but as it isn't, there aren't. 

If you want to find out, I sugest you ask WHW, RSPCA, DEFRA......... they are all fully aware of horses going abroad for slaughter.


----------



## Changes (19 March 2011)

friesian80 said:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/01/horseracing.sport

This among many other sites informs me that a large percentage of TB's bred for the track end up slaughtered, mass overbreeding in the industry is what Id like to address.
		
Click to expand...

Oh dear. This is a newspaper article set up by the Animal Aid eejit. It's sensationalism. 

Find figures and percentages the way the America version of DEFRA have, and then discuss it.


----------



## friesian80 (19 March 2011)

So 'changes'  are you trying to tell me a large percentage of TB's bred for racing do not end up slaughtered because they didnt make the grade?

If they dont get slaughtered could you tell me what happens to them?


----------



## Changes (19 March 2011)

friesian80 said:



			So 'changes'  are you trying to tell me a large percentage of TB's bred for racing do not end up slaughtered because they didnt make the grade?

If they dont get slaughtered could you tell me what happens to them?
		
Click to expand...

What I am saying is that they make up a small percentage of the horses that go for slaughter. Your implication is that the racing industry supplies most of the horses going to the abattoir, and that is not the case. 

Your 'newspaper' quotes an estimated 2-3,000 horses slaughtered from racing in 2006, a figure then refuted by the abattoir. Even taking that as worst case scenario, it is still around 11% as European statistics have over 20,000 horses slaughtered annually in the UK between 2002 and 2007. Hardly the majority.


----------



## friesian80 (19 March 2011)

Changes said:



			What I am saying is that they make up a small percentage of the horses that go for slaughter. Your implication is that the racing industry supplies most of the horses going to the abattoir, and that is not the case. 

Your 'newspaper' quotes an estimated 2-3,000 horses slaughtered from racing in 2006, a figure then refuted by the abattoir. Even taking that as worst case scenario, it is still around 11% as European statistics have over 20,000 horses slaughtered annually in the UK between 2002 and 2007. Hardly the majority.
		
Click to expand...

Do you agree though a large percentage of horses bred in the racing industry get sent for slaughter?
If you do agree do you think this is fine and the issue of overbreeding within the industry isnt a problem?


----------



## Changes (19 March 2011)

No, I don't agree that racing is any more culpable than any other sector of the horse world for sending horses to slaughter. 

You are concentrating on the facts that racing documents EVERY horse bred. 

I expect you would be more horrified about the statistics of all other leisure horse animals if they actually had records. 

Let me turn it back on you - where do you think the other 17,000 plus equines slaughtered in the UK come from?


----------



## Fii (19 March 2011)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Until EEC regulations enforced a change there were many small slaughterhouses all over the country which slaughtered all kinds of farm animals and horses from the local area, they would also come out to 'fallen stock' and emergencies.  
Then the EEC brought out so many regulations that there wasn't enough profit to be made by small slaughterhouses.  And I don't mean that slaughtermen couldn't make millions but that they couldn't make a reasonable living (just like many RS owners can't, because of all the regulations).
So most of the slaughterhouses closed down, which meant that ALL stock, not just horses, had to travel further from the farm, or wherever.
Those who are suggesting that there should be more slaughterhouses are not wanting to slaughter more animals but would rather that no animal had to travel more than a minimum mileage to be slaughtered.
We are very fortunate in my area as although the local slaughterhouse closed, it is now run as an 'Equine Crematorium'.  The owner or one of her staff will come out to shoot the horse at home, or the horse-owner can arrange for it to be taken there at a specified time.  She will also collect a horse which the vet has euthanased.  A very valuable service as few people can bury their horses at home.
Why should people be forced to have a horse euthanased (& I agree with brighteyes, it is still slaughter) by injection?  I certainly don't want that for my horses.
There is far too much sentiment from people with very little experience and even less sense, IMO.
		
Click to expand...

There used to be a slaughter house about ten miles from us, but they had to close because of all the eu cr^p, and i think they were onley killing for pet food.


 Friesian..... the hunt is NOT free where i live, i can't remember how much they charge though.


----------



## miss_bird (19 March 2011)

The hunt is not free near me as far as i know know but luckily my local knacker man also has a crem so you get he ashes back if you want (i always do) but if you dont want them the local zoo animals benefit


----------



## friesian80 (19 March 2011)

Fii said:



			Friesian..... the hunt is NOT free where i live, i can't remember how much they charge though.
		
Click to expand...

I was always under the impression the huntsman would shoot horse at home then take the carcus away free of charge?????  Surely if its not free its not too expensive?

I am very privaledged to have my horses on my mothers croft, my old boy was PTS end of last year, cheaper option would have been to put him to the landfill but we buried him at home which im so glad we could afford to do.
I totally understand others are not so lucky but was always told if said horse was taken by the huntsman it was free of charge.  Id much rather dispose of my horse this way than send it to a slaughterhouse.


----------



## Fii (19 March 2011)

I am also sure it is not legal to bury a horse/cow/sheep/pig here either, may very well be different in Scottland though.


----------



## navaho (19 March 2011)

friesian80 said:



			I was always under the impression the huntsman would shoot horse at home then take the carcus away free of charge?????  Surely if its not free its not too expensive?

I am very privaledged to have my horses on my mothers croft, my old boy was PTS end of last year, cheaper option would have been to put him to the landfill but we buried him at home which im so glad we could afford to do.
I totally understand others are not so lucky but was always told if said horse was taken by the huntsman it was free of charge.  Id much rather dispose of my horse this way than send it to a slaughterhouse.
		
Click to expand...

When we found my horse dead in the field 2 years ago we contacted the local hunt to come & take him away, they wanted £250 to do this.


----------



## mymare (19 March 2011)

friesian80 said:



			I was always under the impression the huntsman would shoot horse at home then take the carcus away free of charge?????  Surely if its not free its not too expensive?

I am very privaledged to have my horses on my mothers croft, my old boy was PTS end of last year, cheaper option would have been to put him to the landfill but we buried him at home which im so glad we could afford to do.
I totally understand others are not so lucky but was always told if said horse was taken by the huntsman it was free of charge.  Id much rather dispose of my horse this way than send it to a slaughterhouse.
		
Click to expand...

Was your horse euthanased?  Then correct me if I'm wrong but you cannot bury them after the injection for obvious reasons.




Fii said:



			I am also sure it is not legal to bury a horse/cow/sheep/pig here either, may very well be different in Scottland though.
		
Click to expand...

I THINK it is legal up here if you can prove they were not for commercial purposes and that they were a "family pet".  Again though, as far as I'm led to believe they cannot be buried if euthanased by lethal injection as it is then a threat to wildlife that could potentially dig it up and eat it. 

But don't quote me on that...

ETA I'm talking about horses Fii, sorry, not cows, sheep or pigs.


----------



## friesian80 (19 March 2011)

Hmm why has this thread become about how my horse was PTS?????  

Navaho - Am genuinely shocked at the price! 

Are hunstmen as readily available as they used to be before the fox hunting ban was brought in?


----------



## Fii (19 March 2011)

friesian80 said:



			Hmm why has this thread become about how my horse was PTS?????  

Navaho - Am genuinely shocked at the price! 

Are hunstmen as readily available as they used to be before the fox hunting ban was brought in?
		
Click to expand...

I am sure the hunt used to come out for free or a nominal fee, before the ban.
 But i also think, it is one of those things that you really can't expect to be done for nothing any more.


----------



## SJcrazee (19 March 2011)

I support PETA  - that's people eat tasty animals!!


----------



## penhwnllys_stardust (20 March 2011)

thatsmygirl said:



			There's not a lot more to say it's all been said.

But you stupid facebook people need to grow up, face facts about slaughter, it will happen, always will and is the best ending for some horses to save suffering long term. 
Potters are busy and when I rung them they had a long waiting list so we need more slaughter houses to deal with it.
Grow up and face facts. 
You stupid stupid lot
		
Click to expand...

us HHOers are on facebook fighting FOR slaughterhouses.


----------



## AndySpooner (20 March 2011)

I believe it is a truth that everyone on this forum wants the best for horses in the UK, not only their own horses, but horses which don't have a 'family' home, like racehorses and others.

When the time comes, for whatever reason, for your own horse to be PTS, ideally it is done at home, in familiar surroundings with people the horse knows and trusts who will be with them at the end.

Unfortunately, for some horses this is not how they will face the end. The current discussion about slaughterhouses, is really the next best option for the horse. For the horses that come from racing or off the moors, a ride to the slaughterhouse and death, with no-one who cares about them as an individual, is  stressful and not ideal, but probably the next best option for these horses.

What cannot be right, moral or acceptable is live export to a foreign country in the back of a lorry for a several thousand mile journey to a possible inhumane (I don't know how they kill horses) death.

Legislation in the UK sets great store by the humane standards in our slaughterhouses for all animals and this cannot be denied to UK horses. Whether or not there is any 'profit' in horse slaughter is, in my opinion, a side issue in this debate, and if I could not put my horse to sleep at home, then I would probably pay a slaughterhouse to do it.

Where people cannot afford to do the right thing by their horse, through financial hardship, then the costs could be met by horse charities or the RSPCA, which would be a practical useful thing for them to assist with.

True, that over breeding is probably the cause of a lot of horses having to be slaughtered, but these horses should be treated as humanely as every other and should never be allowed to leave these shores for their final journey.


----------



## sprytzer (20 March 2011)

mymare said:



			Was your horse euthanased?  Then correct me if I'm wrong but you cannot bury them after the injection for obvious reasons.




I THINK it is legal up here if you can prove they were not for commercial purposes and that they were a "family pet".  Again though, as far as I'm led to believe they cannot be buried if euthanased by lethal injection as it is then a threat to wildlife that could potentially dig it up and eat it. 

But don't quote me on that...

ETA I'm talking about horses Fii, sorry, not cows, sheep or pigs.
		
Click to expand...


Mymare, i am also in Scotland...it is legal to bury your horse regardless of bullet or injection so long as you can prove to DEFRA he/she was a pet, they send you guidelines of where you can bury and the depth of hole dug, and how far away from watercourses you must be.
I have 2 ponies buried in my field, one by bullet and one by injection and had no problem so long as i followed their email.
That was how we did it anyway, we had the vet confirm how long he had been treating them, and how long they had been retired etc.


----------



## Maesfen (20 March 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I believe it is a truth that everyone on this forum wants the best for horses in the UK, not only their own horses, but horses which don't have a 'family' home, like racehorses and others.

When the time comes, for whatever reason, for your own horse to be PTS, ideally it is done at home, in familiar surroundings with people the horse knows and trusts who will be with them at the end.

Unfortunately, for some horses this is not how they will face the end. The current discussion about slaughterhouses, is really the next best option for the horse. For the horses that come from racing or off the moors, a ride to the slaughterhouse and death, with no-one who cares about them as an individual, is  stressful and not ideal, but probably the next best option for these horses.

What cannot be right, moral or acceptable is live export to a foreign country in the back of a lorry for a several thousand mile journey to a possible inhumane (I don't know how they kill horses) death.

Legislation in the UK sets great store by the humane standards in our slaughterhouses for all animals and this cannot be denied to UK horses. Whether or not there is any 'profit' in horse slaughter is, in my opinion, a side issue in this debate, and if I could not put my horse to sleep at home, then I would probably pay a slaughterhouse to do it.

Where people cannot afford to do the right thing by their horse, through financial hardship, then the costs could be met by horse charities or the RSPCA, which would be a practical useful thing for them to assist with.

True, that over breeding is probably the cause of a lot of horses having to be slaughtered, but these horses should be treated as humanely as every other and should never be allowed to leave these shores for their final journey.
		
Click to expand...


I think this has been the most sensible and thoughtful post on the whole thread, I live in hope that the FB pagers will digest it properly and realise how wrong they are.  Well done AS.


----------



## brigantia (20 March 2011)

[ ]QUOTEBut you stupid facebook people need to grow up, face facts about slaughter, it will happen, always will and is the best ending for some horses to save suffering long term.[/QUOTE]

I think the people commenting in this thread are different individuals than your referenced FB discussion. 

I realise that this is a complex issue, but I think it's important to sort out the fact from the sentiments. If the case for the necessity of UK slaughter is truly so self-evident, then surely we can discuss it like adults and not react with insults and outrage at anyone who presumes to ask critical questions.

Surely, like any other industry, the equine slaughter industry should be able to stand up to critical enquiry.  

If overbreeding is one of the causes for the "necessity" of slaughter, should not overbreeding be addressed?

Why did the EU close the local British equine slaughterhouses? Was it for animal welfare reasons? When equine slaughter was legal in the US, the captive bolt method was used which was inhumane and designed for cattle not horses. It was not a clean quick death for the horse.

The meat prices are not that high, from what people have said on this thread. So for an individual horse owner to load their horse into a horsebox, or borrow one if they don't own one, and pay all the petrol to drive all the way to Nantwich or Taunton just to sell the animal to the meatman for a pittance hardly seems to be much more cost effective than paying to euthanise.

It would make more economic sense if one had a number of horses to sell to slaughter, in the case of breeders, the racehorse industry, kill buyers, and dealers. Not so much individual owners unless they lived next door to the abbatoir.

Why do people claim that slaughter is "more humane" than euthanisation by humane injection?

How profitable will it be to open further equine slaughter houses? Where will this glut of horsemeat go? Will this not drive prices further down, making it uneconomical? Do you expect the government to help subsidise this?


----------



## Natch (20 March 2011)

Changes said:





There are no sites saying it is legal to ship them abroad. There would only be laws saying it was ILLEGAL to ship them abroad, but as it isn't, there aren't. 

If you want to find out, I sugest you ask WHW, RSPCA, DEFRA......... they are all fully aware of horses going abroad for slaughter.
		
Click to expand...

What I want to know is, how is it cost effective to transport a horse abroad for slaughter?

When we have a slaughterhouse at either end of the country (-ish) why would anyone pay a ferry fee and all that diesel to take a horse out of the UK to slaughter, when those who do so must only be doing it for business?


----------



## brigantia (20 March 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I believe it is a truth that everyone on this forum wants the best for horses in the UK, not only their own horses, but horses which don't have a 'family' home, like racehorses and others.

When the time comes, for whatever reason, for your own horse to be PTS, ideally it is done at home, in familiar surroundings with people the horse knows and trusts who will be with them at the end.

Unfortunately, for some horses this is not how they will face the end. The current discussion about slaughterhouses, is really the next best option for the horse. For the horses that come from racing or off the moors, a ride to the slaughterhouse and death, with no-one who cares about them as an individual, is  stressful and not ideal, but probably the next best option for these horses.

What cannot be right, moral or acceptable is live export to a foreign country in the back of a lorry for a several thousand mile journey to a possible inhumane (I don't know how they kill horses) death.

Legislation in the UK sets great store by the humane standards in our slaughterhouses for all animals and this cannot be denied to UK horses. Whether or not there is any 'profit' in horse slaughter is, in my opinion, a side issue in this debate, and if I could not put my horse to sleep at home, then I would probably pay a slaughterhouse to do it.

Where people cannot afford to do the right thing by their horse, through financial hardship, then the costs could be met by horse charities or the RSPCA, which would be a practical useful thing for them to assist with.

True, that over breeding is probably the cause of a lot of horses having to be slaughtered, but these horses should be treated as humanely as every other and should never be allowed to leave these shores for their final journey.
		
Click to expand...

AndySpooner, I honour you for being so civil and intelligent in your remarks. I agree with much of what you've said. 

But don't you agree that slaughter is a profit based *industry*--not a horse disposal service--and it has to make economic sense for the people working in that industry? Demand for actual horse meat rules the market, the pricing, and the profits, not the supply or overabundance of unwanted horses.

Should not the problem of overbreeding be addressed in some way?


----------



## AndySpooner (20 March 2011)

brigantia said:



			AndySpooner, I honour you for being so civil and intelligent in your remarks. I agree with much of what you've said. 

But don't you agree that slaughter is a profit based *industry*--not a horse disposal service--and it has to make economic sense for the people working in that industry? Demand for actual horse meat rules the market, the pricing, and the profits, not the supply or overabundance of unwanted horses.

Should not the problem of overbreeding be addressed in some way?
		
Click to expand...

Well, if there is no profit at all to pay wages and other overheads then it couldn't carry on. Everyone needs to balance the benefits of UK slaughter against the horrors of live exports.

I personally do not have an issue with the consumption of horse meat in the human food chain. If a profit is made from exporting horse meat rather than live horses I would accept that, though I would not like to see horses specifically bred for meat.

No system is perfect though banning UK slaughter has to be the most ill thought through concept which will have devastating consiqences for the horses least able to avoid the live export trade.


----------



## Allover (20 March 2011)

Maesfen said:



			I think this has been the most sensible and thoughtful post on the whole thread, I live in hope that the FB pagers will digest it properly and realise how wrong they are.  Well done AS.
		
Click to expand...

Aagin, the FB people on HHO are putting these points across to the FB people that are for the petition. 

It would seem that "Thatsmygirl" was confused as to who were for what on FB. 

Unless of course the "FB pagers" are in fact wrong for agreeing with you


----------



## Holly Hocks (20 March 2011)

I think Brigantia has said the most educated, balanced post on here so far - address the breeding industry - particularly the TB racing industry.


----------



## friesian80 (20 March 2011)

Holly Hocks said:



			I think Brigantia has said the most educated, balanced post on here so far - address the breeding industry - particularly the TB racing industry.
		
Click to expand...

Agree


----------



## AndySpooner (20 March 2011)

Holly Hocks said:



			I think Brigantia has said the most educated, balanced post on here so far - address the breeding industry - particularly the TB racing industry.
		
Click to expand...

I think that for most horses there is not a breeding industry as such and lots of foal are the result of quite a casual approach by horse owners who put mares in foal which in honestly, shouldn't be.

The horse racing industry is a much different scenario, where large numbers of youngsters are put through the system with a high volume of good horses culled only because they are not fast enough. How a limit could be put on the numbers born or the numbers culled I don't know, but, I envisage massive resistance from the racing industry should any attempt be made to influence their breeding and selection processes.

The saddest sector which overproduction occurs in my opinion is the moorland ponies. A thousand unwanted Dartmoor ponies have been culled in the past year. In any year only 20% of foals are ever sold as riding ponies, the rest probably end up being slaughtered in Italy.

So yes, the overproduction of horses is the problem, but to solve this will be impossible unless the owners of racehorses come on board. Though, as these predominantly very wealthy will be asked to sort out the fall out of their hobby which causes so much misery for their rejects little or nothing will be done.

The result is the clearing up by slaughterhouses if the horses are lucky, or live export by low class dealers.


----------



## SusannaF (20 March 2011)

If the meat value of a TB = £450, then any breeder of a registered TB that's slaughtered is taking a loss. They aren't bred for meat.

Would be nice to see the industry contribute to rehab/retraining for them though.


----------



## cptrayes (20 March 2011)

Racing depends on breeding a large number of youngsters in order to find the fastest and the rest are surplus to requirements.

While some people may find that distasteful you need to remember that the jobs of thousands and thousands of people depend on it - breeders, trainers, jockeys, stable lads, racecourse management and maintenance, reporters, bookies and all the people who are paid from the enormous amount of tax that is paid by the betting industry.

And ask yourself this question - you are an embryo TB destined for flat racing. You will be  born and pampered until you are three years old, at which point it will be obvious that you will never run fast enough, and you will be quickly and painlessly killed.

Offered the choice, as a horse, - would you choose to have those three years, or never live at all?


----------



## AndySpooner (20 March 2011)

I don't think the value of culled racehorses is the issue. Owning racehorses is a fairly loss making pastime I imagine, but it would be creditable if these people put some money into rehabilitation. The real problem is too many unwanted horses .


----------



## cptrayes (20 March 2011)

QUOTE "Why did the EU close the local British equine slaughterhouses? Was it for animal welfare reasons? When equine slaughter was legal in the US, the captive bolt method was used which was inhumane and designed for cattle not horses. It was not a clean quick death for the horse."END QUOTE

The EU did not  close equine slaughterhouses. They imposed such stringent health (NOT welfare, human health) regulations on them because the rest of Europe  routinely eat horses that they could not operate economically. Small sheep/cow/pig slaughterhouses have also been shut, resulting in long journeys for those animals too.

I have held three horses killed by captive bolt and it was instant and extremely humane. I would allow any of mine to be done with captive bolt again.


----------



## AndySpooner (20 March 2011)

cptrayes said:



			QUOTE "Why did the EU close the local British equine slaughterhouses? Was it for animal welfare reasons? When equine slaughter was legal in the US, the captive bolt method was used which was inhumane and designed for cattle not horses. It was not a clean quick death for the horse."END QUOTE

The EU did not  close equine slaughterhouses. They imposed such stringent health (NOT welfare, human health) regulations on them because the rest of Europe  routinely eat horses that they could not operate economically. Small sheep/cow/pig slaughterhouses have also been shut, resulting in long journeys for those animals too.

I have held three horses killed by captive bolt and it was instant and extremely humane. I would allow any of mine to be done with captive bolt again.
		
Click to expand...

agreed


----------



## hairycob (20 March 2011)

I wouldn't send one of mine to a slaughter house, but that is 1) my personal prefereence 2) they are all far to far away from me to be a practical choice. I can understand that for some people it could become a financial necessity when pts is needed. I went to a talk a while back where a Vet for one of the equine charities said he advises people when they buy a horse to put aside the amount it would cost to pts & dispose of the body. Because you never you know just when you will need it & it will be stressful enough without having to find the money. I had never thought about that before, but it struck me as one of the most sensible peices of advise I had ever heard.


----------



## Allover (20 March 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I don't think the value of culled racehorses is the issue. Owning racehorses is a fairly loss making pastime I imagine, but it would be creditable if these people put some money into rehabilitation. The real problem is too many unwanted horses .
		
Click to expand...

I totally agree on the racing industry providing rehabilitation of those not good enough for racing, maybe then they would look at numbers bred if they had to shell out to make the animals into "everyday" horses. 

Any money got back from a racehorse that has been sent to slaughter is money they otherwise would not have had and obviously the horse is not costing anymore. A badun costs as much to keep as a goodun and all that!


----------



## cptrayes (20 March 2011)

But they need the numbers that they breed to fill the number of slots for racing for people to bet on. That's how the whole industry works. They aren't surplus to requirements when they are born. 

Unless they are deformed, damaged or ill, they aren't killed until after they have proved that they aren't fast enough to win. Until then, they race, and when they are killed their places are taken by the next batch of two year olds.


----------



## AndySpooner (20 March 2011)

cptrayes said:



			But they need the numbers that they breed to fill the number of slots for racing for people to bet on. That's how the whole industry works. They aren't surplus to requirements when they are born. 

Unless they are deformed, damaged or ill, they aren't killed until after they have proved that they aren't fast enough to win. Until then, they race, and when they are killed their places are taken by the next batch of two year olds.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree with this post, its why there needd to be a humane method of disposal through UK slaughterhouses as there is just too many to retrain.


----------



## Allover (20 March 2011)

I was informed by someone in the racing world that filly foals in the UK were disposed of 2 years ago as too many were bred. I am also informed (by someone who has witnessed it) that in NZ foals are regularly shot before they get anywhere near racing. These are ones that people with a trained eye have looked at and presumed they will not be good enough.

Another point that needs to be made about the racing world is the input it has into lameness\illness treatment, cure and prevention. 

There are many plus points to racing but there are also many down sides. 

To say that young flat horses live the life of pampered luxury untill they are shot if they are not fast enough, in my experience, is simply not true. Especially on the bigger yards. It is a business and is run as such.


----------



## brigantia (20 March 2011)

To say that young flat horses live the life of pampered luxury untill they are shot if they are not fast enough, in my experience, is simply not true. Especially on the bigger yards. It is a business and is run as such.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for pointing this out, Allover. 




			The saddest sector which overproduction occurs in my opinion is the moorland ponies. A thousand unwanted Dartmoor ponies have been culled in the past year. In any year only 20% of foals are ever sold as riding ponies, the rest probably end up being slaughtered in Italy.

So yes, the overproduction of horses is the problem, but to solve this will be impossible unless the owners of racehorses come on board. Though, as these predominantly very wealthy will be asked to sort out the fall out of their hobby which causes so much misery for their rejects little or nothing will be done.

The result is the clearing up by slaughterhouses if the horses are lucky, or live export by low class dealers.
		
Click to expand...

This is very, very sad. Who are these dealers who export the ponies to Italy? It's such a long way--are they doing it on a mass scale to make it economical for them? Is the live transport of animals not regulated in any way in the EU?

I do agree that live animal transport and overbreeding are part of the whole, complex problem. You can't just address slaughter alone but have to look at the bigger picture.  





			I think Brigantia has said the most educated, balanced post on here so far - address the breeding industry - particularly the TB racing industry.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you Hollyhocks and Friesan80! 

And thank you to AndySpooner and Allover for your intelligent commentary.


----------



## Natch (20 March 2011)

Allover said:



			Another point that needs to be made about the racing world is the input it has into lameness\illness treatment, cure and prevention. 

There are many plus points to racing but there are also many down sides. 

To say that young flat horses live the life of pampered luxury untill they are shot if they are not fast enough, in my experience, is simply not true. Especially on the bigger yards. It is a business and is run as such.
		
Click to expand...

Here here. Most of the research done on horses full stop is funded by either the race industry or meat, or milk industries.

I'm glad that there are yards who treat them well, but for an awful lot of others they are part of a production line. And remember, what constitutes luxury to a human isn't to a horse. A horse's idea of luxury living would probably be 24/7 living in a huge field with decent hedgerows and nice muddy patches to roll in, not spending hours in a stable with a nice big bed and meal fed.


----------



## Changes (20 March 2011)

Naturally said:



			What I want to know is, how is it cost effective to transport a horse abroad for slaughter?

When we have a slaughterhouse at either end of the country (-ish) why would anyone pay a ferry fee and all that diesel to take a horse out of the UK to slaughter, when those who do so must only be doing it for business?
		
Click to expand...

Several points. 

There are queues for the current abattoirs in the UK, and horses need to be booked in. One of the dealers who trades from abroad had 140+ horses go through a UK abattoir in 4 months. That's ONE dealer. 

When a dealer goes abroad to pick up horses, he may as well load the lorry with horses from his yard that cannot immediately be booked in a UK abattoir (or perhaps he's exceeded his quota, I have no idea if they have one, but I can't imagine one dealer would be allowed to dominate the numbers of horses going through), and trade them with the European dealers. 

There is also no need for records of these foreign transactions, unlike the animals sent to the UK abattoirs who have to declare every carcass, and where they came from, so are thereby traceable by the IR. 

The horses imported from the groupage abattoir queues (for meat money) are then resold in the UK as smart well bred sports horses for a few grand, with their issues hidden by whatever means dealers use to hide them in the short term. The horses exported pay the ferry fees, diesel and trade off for the purchases plus perhaps a bit more spare cash in the back pocket.


----------



## cptrayes (20 March 2011)

Naturally said:



			What I want to know is, how is it cost effective to transport a horse abroad for slaughter?
		
Click to expand...

It shouldn't be, there are minumum values in place to stop it, also under threat from the EU !

http://www.happa.org.uk/export.asp



 In my earlier comment about whether a racehorse would choose to be alive for three years or not alive at all, I define "pampered luxury" for any prey animal as "to be safe from predators and have enough to eat". Don't lose the point in argument over a detail. Ask a foetus if it wants three years of the life of a racehorse or no life at all, and it will choose life.

The import of horses for killing is clearly wrong (and I question why on earth it is necessary for a dealer to travel, with so many useless horses in this country), but you are a lot less likely to have any issues with a horse which has been bought for meat from a country where they are routinely bred for meat than you are with a horse which has been bought for meat at a local British horse auction. There is every reason why the British horse has issues and none whatsoever why the meat bred one should have any.


----------



## Allover (20 March 2011)

cptrayes said:



			In my earlier comment about whether a racehorse would choose to be alive for three years or not alive at all, I define "pampered luxury" for any prey animal as "to be safe from predators and have enough to eat". Don't lose the point in argument over a detail. Ask a foetus if it wants three years of the life of a racehorse or no life at all, and it will choose life.

.
		
Click to expand...

Will it?!!!!

Maybe if the questions you asked them whether they would like to be made to run before they could walk, have physical and mental "issues" from working too hard too young, fed on a diet that is completely unnatural for their systems, lose the chance to have friends and play and live in a box 23 hours a day to come out for an hour to run about and, if you are lucky, have a roll, would they then answer a big fat yes to the question?


----------



## Changes (20 March 2011)

cptrayes said:



			It shouldn't be, there are minumum values in place to stop it, also under threat from the EU !

http://www.happa.org.uk/export.asp

The import of horses for killing is clearly wrong (and I question why on earth it is necessary for a dealer to travel, with so many useless horses in this country)
		
Click to expand...

The minimum values no longer exist (or so I've been informed) - it's not legal, apparently, under the EU regs for free trade.

Also, I don't know if your remark about importing for slaughter was in response to what I wrote, but if so, I'd just like to clarify that the imported horses are dressed up and sold on as sports horses, not imported principally for slaughter. Although given the reasons most of them were in the groupage for abattoir yards in the first instance, it's no great assumption to realise the likelihood is that's where they'll end up sooner rather than later.


----------



## brigantia (21 March 2011)

One of the dealers who trades from abroad had 140+ horses go through a UK abattoir in 4 months. That's ONE dealer.
		
Click to expand...

So some dealers specialise in importing/exporting horses for slaughter. I wish we could publish their names here for the sake of absolute transparency.


----------



## Changes (21 March 2011)

brigantia said:



			So some dealers specialise in importing/exporting horses for slaughter. I wish we could publish their names here for the sake of absolute transparency.
		
Click to expand...

More than some - lots of the southern England dealers do it. Most have been mentioned at one time or another on here, although some haven't.

Names can't be published, as the thread will be pulled, even though the information is out there if you look for it.


----------



## sprite1978 (21 March 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Ask a foetus if it wants three years of the life of a racehorse or no life at all, and it will choose life.
		
Click to expand...

The foetus shouldn`t exist in the first place to be "ASKED". The only solution is to reduce breeding numbers. Then we wouldnt need to use slaughter houses. At the moment they are essential.


----------



## Natch (21 March 2011)

cptrayes said:



			It shouldn't be, there are minumum values in place to stop it, also under threat from the EU !

http://www.happa.org.uk/export.asp



 In my earlier comment about whether a racehorse would choose to be alive for three years or not alive at all, I define "pampered luxury" for any prey animal as "to be safe from predators and have enough to eat". Don't lose the point in argument over a detail. Ask a foetus if it wants three years of the life of a racehorse or no life at all, and it will choose life.

The import of horses for killing is clearly wrong (and I question why on earth it is necessary for a dealer to travel, with so many useless horses in this country), but you are a lot less likely to have any issues with a horse which has been bought for meat from a country where they are routinely bred for meat than you are with a horse which has been bought for meat at a local British horse auction. There is every reason why the British horse has issues and none whatsoever why the meat bred one should have any.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks CPTrays and Changes for answering my question, even if the answer made me very  .

I see your point in not losing the arguement over the detail, but I actually think its a pretty important point to the whole topic. I don't want us to dwell on what a fetus would choose, because we can't ask it and we can't _possibly_ know what its response would be. Racehorses _in general_ often lead a highly stressful life which horses were not evolved to, and haven't had time to adapt (in evolutionary terms) to. That's why any intensively managed horse yard has a higher than average number of stress-related problems such as ulcers and stereotypies.

I make the point only because I feel that racing needs a massive overhaul, which includes addressing the fact that the lifestyle and early death of so many horses is an ethical problem, which should be addressed.

Until then, of course slaughterhouses in the UK provide a humane solution to disposal of the vast quantities of wastage.


----------



## jokadoka (21 March 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I don't think the value of culled racehorses is the issue. Owning racehorses is a fairly loss making pastime I imagine, but it would be creditable if these people put some money into rehabilitation. The real problem is too many unwanted horses .
		
Click to expand...

I read somewhere that the "Racing industry" as such does put money in to rehabilitation, however it amounts to only 250.000 pounds a year, which to their own calculations would rehabilitate around 90 horses, a mere drop in the ocean......


----------



## Double_choc_lab (21 March 2011)

It's a shame "Nativeponies" isn't still around (or perhaps she is under another guise) she could take the Face bookers on single handedly - and won!


----------



## Fire_Fly (21 March 2011)

I think even she might have admitted defeat with some of the idiots on there. Some seem to be turning round though.


----------



## brigantia (21 March 2011)

I make the point only because I feel that racing needs a massive overhaul, which includes addressing the fact that the lifestyle and early death of so many horses is an ethical problem, which should be addressed.

Until then, of course slaughterhouses in the UK provide a humane solution to disposal of the vast quantities of wastage.
		
Click to expand...

This is just so sad. I would love to see more investigative journalism here.


----------



## Changes (21 March 2011)

Whilst I don't disagree about the wastage in racing, it is NOT the only culprit. 
Racing is totally transparent - every mare covered is recorded, every foal born is registered and microchipped, and their career is reported right up until they come out of training.  

That doesn't happen with ANY other section of the horse world. Until the same records are available for every horse, it is wrong to lay the blame for the malaise of the horse industry at racing's door. Racing is not alone in confining horses to stables without turnout - nor chucking them out when they are unwanted. 
That said, I would dearly like to see the BHA take a more active part in what happens to horses after racing, as I would every competitive body.

I don't understand why there are no outcries about what happens to dressage horses that are no good, or showjumpers, or the older horse whose rider aspires to more than that horse can now give. And make no mistake, this forum and HHO adverts are riddled with people selling on horses for those reasons. Yet these very same are those that are outraged about how dreadful racing is. 

It's very easy to lay blame when there are statisitics to work from, as in racing. But it is very wrong when other sections of the horse world who have never recorded their breeding or performance figures then escape scrutiny or a call to step up to the mark welfare wise. 

As this thread is about slaughter, but seemingly having the TB industry take the flak, I'd like to show how the rest of the equine population has to be considered equally culpable. 

From a BHA report - In 2006, out of the 7,590 horses taken out of training, this is what happened to them;
Exported 1168
Racing in IRE & C. Islands 209
Point to Point (GB) 703
Point to Point (IRE) 40
Sport Horse/Recreation 582
Retired to Stud 1446
Reported Dead 852
Whereabouts Unknown 2404
Sold at Auction - no further records 186

So, from this, the max number (by adding the last three in the column) that could have gone for slaughter is 3,442. The likelihood is much lower, however, as the 'reported dead' will include horses that have died on the track, or on the gallops, or from colic, or been PTS for injury. 
The whereabouts 'unknown' is exactly that - and could well include a lot of horses that are just given to good homes. I've had 2 TBs that fit that bill, and they were never a slaughter statistic.

Given that the year this report was published, over 20,000 horses were slaughtered in the UK, I hope it puts racing more into perspective.


----------



## Bug2007 (21 March 2011)

YorksG said:



			Why on earth would anyone be stupid enough to want to end slaughter of horses in the UK? What do people think would happen to the unwanted horses if horse slaughter was banned? Do people want to see the equivalent of the horrenous journeys and subsequent vile deaths experienced by horse from the USA, travelling to Mexico and Canada?
I would rather see the small slaughter houses re-opened and no animal being travelled further than 50 miles from its last 'home'
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree....some people need thier heads testing. All these un wanted or ill horses will end up travelling hours and miles overseas to be killed, rather than quickly in the UK. We need loads more as there as far as i know only two registered in the uk, Potters and Turners.
 Bl**dy bunny huggers don't have a clue about welfare of animals. They just see the surface. Poor pony going to slaughter house not what would happen to it if it didn't go there.


----------



## SusannaF (21 March 2011)

Changes said:



			Whilst I don't disagree about the wastage in racing, it is NOT the only culprit. 
Racing is totally transparent - every mare covered is recorded, every foal born is registered and microchipped, and their career is reported right up until they come out of training.  

That doesn't happen with ANY other section of the horse world. Until the same records are available for every horse, it is wrong to lay the blame for the malaise of the horse industry at racing's door. Racing is not alone in confining horses to stables without turnout - nor chucking them out when they are unwanted. 
That said, I would dearly like to see the BHA take a more active part in what happens to horses after racing, as I would every competitive body.

I don't understand why there are no outcries about what happens to dressage horses that are no good, or showjumpers, or the older horse whose rider aspires to more than that horse can now give. And make no mistake, this forum and HHO adverts are riddled with people selling on horses for those reasons. Yet these very same are those that are outraged about how dreadful racing is. 

It's very easy to lay blame when there are statisitics to work from, as in racing. But it is very wrong when other sections of the horse world who have never recorded their breeding or performance figures then escape scrutiny or a call to step up to the mark welfare wise. 

As this thread is about slaughter, but seemingly having the TB industry take the flak, I'd like to show how the rest of the equine population has to be considered equally culpable. 

From a BHA report - In 2006, out of the 7,590 horses taken out of training, this is what happened to them;
Exported 1168
Racing in IRE & C. Islands 209
Point to Point (GB) 703
Point to Point (IRE) 40
Sport Horse/Recreation 582
Retired to Stud 1446
Reported Dead 852
Whereabouts Unknown 2404
Sold at Auction - no further records 186

So, from this, the max number (by adding the last three in the column) that could have gone for slaughter is 3,442. The likelihood is much lower, however, as the 'reported dead' will include horses that have died on the track, or on the gallops, or from colic, or been PTS for injury. 
The whereabouts 'unknown' is exactly that - and could well include a lot of horses that are just given to good homes. I've had 2 TBs that fit that bill, and they were never a slaughter statistic.

Given that the year this report was published, over 20,000 horses were slaughtered in the UK, I hope it puts racing more into perspective.
		
Click to expand...

Yep, I'm just going to quote the whole lot, because I think it should be said again!


----------



## jokadoka (21 March 2011)

Changes said:



			Whilst I don't disagree about the wastage in racing, it is NOT the only culprit. 
Racing is totally transparent - every mare covered is recorded, every foal born is registered and microchipped, and their career is reported right up until they come out of training.  

That doesn't happen with ANY other section of the horse world. Until the same records are available for every horse, it is wrong to lay the blame for the malaise of the horse industry at racing's door. Racing is not alone in confining horses to stables without turnout - nor chucking them out when they are unwanted. 
That said, I would dearly like to see the BHA take a more active part in what happens to horses after racing, as I would every competitive body.

I don't understand why there are no outcries about what happens to dressage horses that are no good, or showjumpers, or the older horse whose rider aspires to more than that horse can now give. And make no mistake, this forum and HHO adverts are riddled with people selling on horses for those reasons. Yet these very same are those that are outraged about how dreadful racing is. 

It's very easy to lay blame when there are statisitics to work from, as in racing. But it is very wrong when other sections of the horse world who have never recorded their breeding or performance figures then escape scrutiny or a call to step up to the mark welfare wise. 

As this thread is about slaughter, but seemingly having the TB industry take the flak, I'd like to show how the rest of the equine population has to be considered equally culpable. 

From a BHA report - In 2006, out of the 7,590 horses taken out of training, this is what happened to them;
Exported 1168
Racing in IRE & C. Islands 209
Point to Point (GB) 703
Point to Point (IRE) 40
Sport Horse/Recreation 582
Retired to Stud 1446
Reported Dead 852
Whereabouts Unknown 2404
Sold at Auction - no further records 186

So, from this, the max number (by adding the last three in the column) that could have gone for slaughter is 3,442. The likelihood is much lower, however, as the 'reported dead' will include horses that have died on the track, or on the gallops, or from colic, or been PTS for injury. 
The whereabouts 'unknown' is exactly that - and could well include a lot of horses that are just given to good homes. I've had 2 TBs that fit that bill, and they were never a slaughter statistic.

Given that the year this report was published, over 20,000 horses were slaughtered in the UK, I hope it puts racing more into perspective.
		
Click to expand...

OK, I see your point and do agree with a lot of it, but how do you translate the exported figure? Do you see that as sold as private leisure horses abroad or the meat wagons?


----------



## Changes (22 March 2011)

jokadoka said:



			OK, I see your point and do agree with a lot of it, but how do you translate the exported figure? Do you see that as sold as private leisure horses abroad or the meat wagons?
		
Click to expand...

The figure will cover horses sold to Europe, America, the Middle East, Australia, Japan etc to race or stand at stud. It is unlikely to cover the private registered horses as they will by then be out of racing, and only DEFRA need notification. 

Exported in the BHA records means horses that have officially gone throught the Weatherbys system of exportation, which involves paying for a permanent export certificate (atm £117) and/or an END1 form to race. That will not be being paid for slaughter horses.


----------



## Holly Hocks (22 March 2011)

brigantia said:



			So some dealers specialise in importing/exporting horses for slaughter. I wish we could publish their names here for the sake of absolute transparency.
		
Click to expand...

I think "dealer" is the wrong word - meat man or kill buyer would be more appropriate......


----------



## Changes (22 March 2011)

Holly Hocks said:



			I think "dealer" is the wrong word - meat man or kill buyer would be more appropriate......
		
Click to expand...

They are not the 'kill buyers' as in America where they buy from the auctions simply to ship for meat.
But they are dealers, people on this forum have bought 'riding' horses from several of them. Some of them have decent quality horses as well as the ones with no future. 
Horses are traded across the channel in large quantities and those that don't sell, or will never sell, go to slaughter. 

It's the unfortunate underbelly of the 'leisure' horse industry.


----------



## Lady La La (22 March 2011)

Off topic a bit, but given the amount of petittions out there to get the two equine abattoirs closed down, I've created a FB group challenging peoples views and (trying) to explain the need we currently have for them.

I doubt it will be anywhere near as popular as the 'STOP horse slaughter' groups that have 100's of thousands of members as 'keep killing horses' doesn't sound so nice  
...but already a few people from the anti slaughter group have started asking questions...

have a 'butchers' 

http://www.beta.facebook.com/pages/...the-UK-know-the-Facts/100760636676387?sk=wall


----------



## brigantia (22 March 2011)

They are not the 'kill buyers' as in America where they buy from the auctions simply to ship for meat.
But they are dealers, people on this forum have bought 'riding' horses from several of them. Some of them have decent quality horses as well as the ones with no future. 
Horses are traded across the channel in large quantities and those that don't sell, or will never sell, go to slaughter. 

It's the unfortunate underbelly of the 'leisure' horse industry.
		
Click to expand...

Again I wish some brave investigative journalist would report on this. Probably few leisure riders are even aware of this side of the horse industry. And I think the public should be entitled to transparency so they can choose to avoid selling on to dealers who do sell horses to the slaughter industry.

This is why we need a Fugly Blog in the UK. Maybe after they change the libel laws!  

Changes, you're correct that we can't just scapegoat the racing industry. I think every individual owner has to take responsibility for their own horse and not sell it on to an uncertain future or an unvetted home. But that still leaves the problem of overbreeding that needs to be addressed . . .


----------



## brigantia (22 March 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_slaughter

According to the wisdom of Wikipedia, "UK law effectively forbids the export of live animals for slaughter." But the cited source of this information is a Daily Mail article . . .


----------



## Changes (22 March 2011)

I am in total agreement that overbreeding needs to be addressed. I'd qualify that by saying it needs addressing EVERYWHERE though. That goes right across the board from all the commercial breeders of sports horses, racehorses, show horses right down to those wanting to breed from their mare because she's there and they'd like a foal. 

Stallions need to be licensed, and if considered unsuitable, mares should be forbidden to be bred from. All foals need to be registered with a single body, DNA tested, and if they cannot prove parentage then should not be allowed to compete. 

The UK is a mess. I've just read that DEFRA are scrapping the single passport idea for the moment because of all the different Breed Societies wanting to 
call the shots and not lose income. 

There is no hope of restricting breeding when it is impossible to trace or monitor every horse bred.

When will people wake up and see the bigger picture?


----------



## Changes (22 March 2011)

brigantia said:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_slaughter

According to the wisdom of Wikipedia, "UK law effectively forbids the export of live animals for slaughter." But the cited source of this information is a Daily Mail article . . .
		
Click to expand...

It is NOT illegal to export live animals for slaughter. It is not approved of, or condoned, but it's not illegal. Check with DEFRA if you like.


----------



## brigantia (22 March 2011)

It is NOT illegal to export live animals for slaughter. It is not approved of, or condoned, but it's not illegal. Check with DEFRA if you like.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I didn't quite trust The Daily Mail to be the unshakeable source of accuracy on this!


----------



## friesian80 (22 March 2011)

Changes said:



			I am in total agreement that overbreeding needs to be addressed. I'd qualify that by saying it needs addressing EVERYWHERE though. That goes right across the board from all the commercial breeders of sports horses, racehorses, show horses right down to those wanting to breed from their mare because she's there and they'd like a foal. 

Stallions need to be licensed, and if considered unsuitable, mares should be forbidden to be bred from. All foals need to be registered with a single body, DNA tested, and if they cannot prove parentage then should not be allowed to compete. 

The UK is a mess. I've just read that DEFRA are scrapping the single passport idea for the moment because of all the different Breed Societies wanting to 
call the shots and not lose income. 

There is no hope of restricting breeding when it is impossible to trace or monitor every horse bred.

When will people wake up and see the bigger picture?
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree, its easy to point the finger at the racing industry but its something that needs to be addressed to everyone in the UK, I often cringe at threads on forums where we are supposed to admire the fact their mare is in foal or they are looking for a stally to cover their mare when you know fine well they dont know the first thing about breeding , they just feel their mare is so fab they must have a foal from her.  Or when ppl tell you to put your mare in foal to calm it down (ive been told this far too many times in regards to my Sec B).


----------



## Natch (22 March 2011)

Changes said:



			Whilst I don't disagree about the wastage in racing, it is NOT the only culprit. 

I agree

Racing is totally transparent - every mare covered is recorded, every foal born is registered and microchipped, and their career is reported right up until they come out of training.  

and yet there is still the problem of wastage. Is the record keeping really helping them to waste less horses?

That doesn't happen with ANY other section of the horse world. Until the same records are available for every horse, it is wrong to lay the blame for the malaise of the horse industry at racing's door. Racing is not alone in confining horses to stables without turnout - nor chucking them out when they are unwanted. 

Not at all, but I don't believe that any other single sector sends as many horses to slaughter

That said, I would dearly like to see the BHA take a more active part in what happens to horses after racing, as I would every competitive body.

I don't understand why there are no outcries about what happens to dressage horses that are no good, or showjumpers, or the older horse whose rider aspires to more than that horse can now give. And make no mistake, this forum and HHO adverts are riddled with people selling on horses for those reasons. Yet these very same are those that are outraged about how dreadful racing is. 

I can only be outraged at one thing at a time 

It's very easy to lay blame when there are statisitics to work from, as in racing. But it is very wrong when other sections of the horse world who have never recorded their breeding or performance figures then escape scrutiny or a call to step up to the mark welfare wise. 

Agree completely.

As this thread is about slaughter, but seemingly having the TB industry take the flak, I'd like to show how the rest of the equine population has to be considered equally culpable. 

From a BHA report - In 2006, out of the 7,590 horses taken out of training, this is what happened to them;
Exported 1168
Racing in IRE & C. Islands 209
Point to Point (GB) 703
Point to Point (IRE) 40
Sport Horse/Recreation 582
Retired to Stud 1446
Reported Dead 852
Whereabouts Unknown 2404
Sold at Auction - no further records 186

So, from this, the max number (by adding the last three in the column) that could have gone for slaughter is 3,442. The likelihood is much lower, however, as the 'reported dead' will include horses that have died on the track, or on the gallops, or from colic, or been PTS for injury. 
The whereabouts 'unknown' is exactly that - and could well include a lot of horses that are just given to good homes. I've had 2 TBs that fit that bill, and they were never a slaughter statistic.

Given that the year this report was published, over 20,000 horses were slaughtered in the UK, I hope it puts racing more into perspective.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting reading. I pick out the racing industry because I percieve them to have the highest % of wastage of any equine sport. I also think that if we can change racing, other sectors are more likely to sit up and take notice, whereas if we tackled the overpopulation of native ponies on the hills and commons first, I don't think it would have the equivalent effect on racing. Of course this is very simplistic and what is really needed is for every source to be tackled simultaneously, which I think in all fairness some sectors are doing.


----------



## brigantia (23 March 2011)

Although we have differing views, we ended up having a very interesting, cordial, and informative discussion about a very divisive issue. Go us!


----------



## Changes (23 March 2011)

OK, Naturally, let me question why you think that racing sends the biggest percentage to slaughter? 

There are no statistics to back that up whatsoever. To qualify what you believe then you need to also quantify what proportion of other sports have a wastage rate rate with their horses. 

There is considered to be around one million head of horses in the UK. Where are the records for the rest?

I don't condone in the slightest that racing loses control of the whereabouts of horses out of training, but they are the ONLY sport that even monitors horses when in training. No other equine sporting body has stringent controls over what premises can used, and spot check trainers. 

A smug remark about not being able to be outraged at more than one thing at a time is not appropriate given the seriousness of the current climate for horses.


----------



## friesian80 (23 March 2011)

Changes said:



			OK, Naturally, let me question why you think that racing sends the biggest percentage to slaughter? 

There are no statistics to back that up whatsoever. To qualify what you believe then you need to also quantify what proportion of other sports have a wastage rate rate with their horses. 

There is considered to be around one million head of horses in the UK. Where are the records for the rest?

I don't condone in the slightest that racing loses control of the whereabouts of horses out of training, but they are the ONLY sport that even monitors horses when in training. No other equine sporting body has stringent controls over what premises can used, and spot check trainers. 

A smug remark about not being able to be outraged at more than one thing at a time is not appropriate given the seriousness of the current climate for horses.
		
Click to expand...


I would have thought the racing indusrty over other equine sports would be disposing of more horses a year because of the fact they are broken in at 2, thrashed, have a higher percentage of serious injuries than other equine sports and their careers tend to be quite short.  Its not so easy to then sell on a horse who has been through the racing experience, im not saying it doesnt happen of course a lot of ppl have ex-racers but Id imagine a larger percentage of ex racers are sent to slaughter than say a horse that doesnt jump high enough or isnt so great at dressage.
Witrh other disciplines it pays off to treat your horse well in the early years, if horse isnt great at jumping or dressage it can be passed to someone else who would rather just have a hacking buddy or someone who doesnt take the sport so seriously


----------



## Changes (23 March 2011)

friesian80 said:



			I would have thought the racing indusrty over other equine sports would be disposing of more horses a year because of the fact they are broken in at 2, thrashed, have a higher percentage of serious injuries than other equine sports and their careers tend to be quite short.  Its not so easy to then sell on a horse who has been through the racing experience, im not saying it doesnt happen of course a lot of ppl have ex-racers but Id imagine a larger percentage of ex racers are sent to slaughter than say a horse that doesnt jump high enough or isnt so great at dressage.
Witrh other disciplines it pays off to treat your horse well in the early years, if horse isnt great at jumping or dressage it can be passed to someone else who would rather just have a hacking buddy or someone who doesnt take the sport so seriously
		
Click to expand...

What a sweeping generalisation of racing. Have you ANY idea what happens in producers yards for SJ and dressage? 

Don't tell me a 3yo or 4yo doing half pass and extended trot is in any way better than a 2yo just doing what is most natural to all horses, that of galloping. Plenty dressage youngsters don't stand up to the pressures imposed on them and end up going for slaughter, or being sold to idiots in the UK who think they've got a bargain until it goes hopping lame within weeks of purchase. 

The top SJ breeders loose jump the foals to see what has ability, those that don't are slaughtered. Those that are overfaced at 3 or 4 are sent to the markets for meat money, and/or then imported into the UK.

But you don't know this, because it's not written statistically for you to find out. 

Until the UK accepts what it so far refuses to - ie the buck for the unwanted horse population does NOT stop with racing, then horses are going to continue to suffer horribly. 

If you really want to stop the entire horse population suffering, then fight for the one body governing passporting and chipping, and ensure that every horse changing hands (and I include those out of racing) is registered to a new owner somewhere.


----------



## Amaranta (23 March 2011)

I tend to agree with Changes, it is unfair to lay the blame solely at the feet of racing, there is massive wastage across the board, and at least the racing industry does try to rehome some of it's unwanted horses.  I watched the video of the Irish trainer who had many of his string put down due to the recession and the lack of owners, sad as it is, I thoroughly applaud the man - he is a responsible trainer, it was obvious that he did not like having to have the horses put down but he knew it was the right thing to do.

Compare him with the breeders of the welsh mountain and the exmoor hill ponies who just keep breeding breeding breeding THEY provide hundreds, if not thousands of ponies to the meat markets, I know which one I think is the real horselover!


----------



## friesian80 (23 March 2011)

Changes said:



			What a sweeping generalisation of racing. Have you ANY idea what happens in producers yards for SJ and dressage? 

QUOTE]

No I actually dont have ANY idea about any facts and figures  on overbreeding outwith Shetland ponies (in Shetland) my thoughts on this subject are just from what people have told me and things ive read on the internet, but it seems whenever I put across what my understanding of the industries are (which im sure a few others think too) I get shot down, Id just like to highlight I dont have figures or experience of seeing what goes through the slaughterhouses and this is why im following this thread with interest.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Changes (23 March 2011)

friesian80 said:





Changes said:



			What a sweeping generalisation of racing. Have you ANY idea what happens in producers yards for SJ and dressage? 

QUOTE]

No I actually dont have ANY idea about any facts and figures  on overbreeding outwith Shetland ponies (in Shetland) my thoughts on this subject are just from what people have told me and things ive read on the internet, but it seems whenever I put across what my understanding of the industries are (which im sure a few others think too) I get shot down, Id just like to highlight I dont have figures or experience of seeing what goes through the slaughterhouses and this is why im following this thread with interest.
		
Click to expand...

You're being responded to in the way you are because you seem to have a fixed idea that no other equine sport is as heinous as racing. But, you cannot back that up, and this is too important a problem to be guessing and hearsay. 
My figures from racing are accurate, as are those of the ONE dealer sending 140 horses to slaughter in four months. And none of them were racehorses. 

I'm not arguing this to defend racing particularly, I'm arguing the case because the majority of the UK population who are removed from racing won't or don't look closer to home, ie their own sports. And they need to.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## friesian80 (23 March 2011)

Changes said:



			You're being responded to in the way you are because you seem to have a fixed idea that no other equine sport is as heinous as racing. But, you cannot back that up, and this is too important a problem to be guessing and hearsay. 
My figures from racing are accurate, as are those of the ONE dealer sending 140 horses to slaughter in four months. And none of them were racehorses. 

I'm not arguing this to defend racing particularly, I'm arguing the case because the majority of the UK population who are removed from racing won't or don't look closer to home, ie their own sports. And they need to.
		
Click to expand...

As I said Im stating what ive been told and what ive read on the internet, nowhere have I said *this is the 'statistics* or *this is what happens*.  Ive put across what I have been made to think and I am interested by many ppls replies I just dont think the attitude in replies is really needed, in fact my opinion has changed since reading this thread but it does annoy me that every time I post I get a sarcastic answer, surely the fact im still following the thread gives you enough idea im willing and interested to listen despite the reactions Ive had to my posts.  Im not saying everything you say im gonna believe but it has made me think about the ppl responsible for overbreeding and will make me look into it more


----------



## friesian80 (24 March 2011)

And just to confirm my above post I did post this one the previous page, so no I DONT have a fixed idea that no other equine sport is as heinous as racing







friesian80 said:



			Totally agree, its easy to point the finger at the racing industry but its something that needs to be addressed to everyone in the UK, I often cringe at threads on forums where we are supposed to admire the fact their mare is in foal or they are looking for a stally to cover their mare when you know fine well they dont know the first thing about breeding , they just feel their mare is so fab they must have a foal from her.  Or when ppl tell you to put your mare in foal to calm it down (ive been told this far too many times in regards to my Sec B). 

Click to expand...


----------



## Changes (24 March 2011)

This is too important a topic to allow it to dissolve into a bunfight. I'm sorry if you feel I was being sarcastic, but I was frustrated that on the one hand you say you base what you are saying on hearsay, and then come out with this statement -




_I would have thought the racing indusrty over other equine sports would be disposing of more horses a year because *of the fact they are broken in at 2, thrashed, have a higher percentage of serious injuries than other equine sports *and their careers tend to be quite short._

Click to expand...

You don't know this, it is a sensationalist statement, not a fact. You can't compare the wastage rate to other equine sports because they don't record it. 

You have to look at the bigger picture. And the first place to start to ensure every equine in the UK is accounted for from birth is to push for a single passport body, with every horse chipped and passported. Then apply measures that will hit people hard if they don't comply - that will help stop indiscrininate breeding.


----------



## tristar (24 March 2011)

i understood that they are broken as yearlings, then raced as 2 yr olds.
5,000 3 yearold or less, trotters who fail to qualify in initial races are slaughtered every year in ONE european country alone, FACT told to me personally by qualified vet who also trains racehorses, what a carnage! 
recently met a horse 6yrs old gelding despite having won considerable prize money over 40,000 was en route to the last journey, completely healthy, beautiful horse bursting with health to the tips of his ears now in private home as riding horse.


----------



## Changes (24 March 2011)

tristar said:



			i understood that they are broken as yearlings, then raced as 2 yr olds.
5,000 3 yearold or less, trotters who fail to qualify in initial races are slaughtered every year in ONE european country alone, FACT told to me personally by qualified vet who also trains racehorses, what a carnage! 
recently met a horse 6yrs old gelding despite having won considerable prize money over 40,000 was en route to the last journey, completely healthy, beautiful horse bursting with health to the tips of his ears now in private home as riding horse.
		
Click to expand...

In France, a huge percentage of young trotters go for meat, as if they are not qualified by 2 years, they cannot qualify, have no real use, so go for meat. However, France has the abattoirs to deal with the unwanted, the UK doesn't, and that's where the problem lies and why the title of this thread is too important to ignore. 

FYI, The flat horses are broken as yearlings, some are raced at 2, some are turned away again as they're not strong enough, and some remain unraced. The National hunt horses are usually not broken until 3, unless they switch codes as they get older, which suggests that it's not done them too much harm.

Why is racing being considered the main culprit here? Whilst the UK buries it's head in the sand in regard to the burgeoning unwanted horse problems being it's own fault, not racing's fault, then horses will continue to suffer.


----------



## Allover (24 March 2011)

Changes - and breathe !!! 

I can completely understand why you are defending the racing industry as it has been picked on, i think this is more to do with the fact that it has most of the facts and figures available for people to see whereas the sports horses and hill ponies are "hidden"!

I completely agree with you regarding the dressage, eventers and jumpers, i think people would be appaled if they knew what went on behind some closed doors and what some of these horses go through to be able to get to a competition area once they have been hammered into the ground. 

IMO opinion it is just as bad seeing an 8yr old jumping 160 sj tracks or performing at top level dressage. 

And i think you are right to suggest that these horses end up in undesireable places, be that in "bad" homes or at the meat man, because they have their brains or bodies blown at an early age.


----------



## Changes (24 March 2011)

Thank you, Allover ........ *breathes normally* ........


----------



## Cuffey (24 March 2011)

The whole problem is about over-breeding, too many people jumping on the 'band wagon' when prices were good particularly cobs, coloured cobs and Shetlands.
Some of these people are now getting out with more horses and ponies available than good homes, far better a quick end than starve to death.

I can only quote on Shetlands from SPS March 2011 newsletter and I do remember Gerry Hart of A1Shetnews producing figures for several years of numbers of ponies registered which had increased dramatically year on year 

''Last year nearly 4000 foals were registered and it may well be more than the market can
sustain at this level, therefore a decrease can only be of benefit to the breed. I hope that
breeders will think carefully about putting mares in foal automatically every year, we do
not want to be creating a welfare problem for our breed''


----------



## TallyHo123 (24 March 2011)

YorksG said:



			Why on earth would anyone be stupid enough to want to end slaughter of horses in the UK? What do people think would happen to the unwanted horses if horse slaughter was banned? Do people want to see the equivalent of the horrenous journeys and subsequent vile deaths experienced by horse from the USA, travelling to Mexico and Canada?
I would rather see the small slaughter houses re-opened and no animal being travelled further than 50 miles from its last 'home'
		
Click to expand...

I agree with this, its a horrible subject but unfortunately it's not going to go away. I would rather see it being done in the most humane way as possible.


----------



## friesian80 (24 March 2011)

Changes said:



			This is too important a topic to allow it to dissolve into a bunfight. I'm sorry if you feel I was being sarcastic, but I was frustrated that on the one hand you say you base what you are saying on hearsay, and then come out with this statement -


You don't know this, it is a sensationalist statement, not a fact. You can't compare the wastage rate to other equine sports because they don't record it. 

You have to look at the bigger picture. And the first place to start to ensure every equine in the UK is accounted for from birth is to push for a single passport body, with every horse chipped and passported. Then apply measures that will hit people hard if they don't comply - that will help stop indiscrininate breeding.
		
Click to expand...

In my posts I have used words such as * I think *  and * I would have thought* ive left the door open for ppl to correct me if Ive made an incorrect asumption but as I said I dont think there is any need for sarcasm or personal insults.

Yes I do think that race horses are broken in at a very young age, are thrashed on the track and that there are very high numbers of fatalities in the sport, their career is short and a low percentage that are bred actually reach the track, meaning the ones that dont make it on the track have an early end to their lives.

If im wrong in my above statement in your eyes please tell me where, im willing to listen.

Ive never said it is soley the racing industry who holds responsibility over the numbers who are slaughtered so dont tell me Im coming out with statements which point the finger at racing alone!


Ive been interested and surprised to hear other equine sports such as dressage are equally responsible and its something to think about for me, but this is a forum, why blow your top at someone who is mearly stating facts which have been read through many internet sites and discussed publicy yet perhaps does not know about other equine sports who dispose of horses in high numbers also through the slaughter trade
Surely with my posts you have been able to reply stating numbers and (in your eyes) clearer statistics regarding the sport so surely that can only be a good thing in getting your viws across.

Theres really no need to get het up by comments made, nobody is trying to wind you up and as I said it is only a forum, yes its very important that ppl know the real facts and I think many ppl will have learned new things regaring horse slaughter.

Its not like this thread is going to determine the future of horse slaughter so we need not personally get offended or through accusations, insults or silly put me downs. If one person knows more about the slaughter trade than the next person its great we can share information and hopefully as members of the forum we will be better informed on the facts regarding the slaughter trade. 

ETA: I very much agree with your last statement regarding chipping and passporting each and every horse bred, and giving heavy fines to breeders who do not follow these rules.  I did actually think this was the law at present but im guessing the moor ponies are not dealt with in this way, does the government allow these ponies to go unpassported?


----------



## tristar (24 March 2011)

horse meat consumption in france is falling, a lot of the horses are going to italy, a long journey, i know someone who bought a heavy horse recently there, all the others on the same farm went to italy live for meat, and were not slaughtered in france.
its true that so many horses are ruined by bad training and inhumane expectations, 
i personally am not in awe of a lot competition riders, and support movements like the classical riding club and the teachings of people like sylvia loch, i find their whole attitude towards horses in general and training a breath of fresh air
in a harsh world, 
i admire greatly the people who take their time to train properly over a number of years and by doing so give their horses the greatest gift anyone can, an education, that will ensure as far as is poss that the horse will have a long and useful life and always find a job, and frankly judging by some of the requests for help in training posted on forums there is a great lack of understanding of how to approach training correctly, not only the riding aspects but the long term implications regarding soundness and behavioral issues all of which lead to many horses premature demise and as such going for meat
i think racing is a special case because they have the jockey club and well heeled owners, what action are they taking to deal with their own mess?


----------



## Changes (24 March 2011)

I think I already answered your questions, Friesian. 

Did you think removing where I quoted you saying it was a fact would somehow change what you wrote?


----------



## friesian80 (24 March 2011)

Changes said:



			I think I already answered your questions, Friesian. 

Did you think removing where I quoted you saying it was a fact would somehow change what you wrote? 

Click to expand...

The only thing I said was a fact was that they were broken in at 2, is this not a fact??????

And no you have not answered my question, you told me *You don't know this, it is a sensationalist statement, not a fact.*


So tell me is the following quote from me wrong?



friesian80 said:



			Yes I do think that race horses are broken in at a very young age, are thrashed on the track and that there are very high numbers of fatalities in the sport, their career is short and a low percentage that are bred actually reach the track, meaning the ones that dont make it on the track have an early end to their lives.

If im wrong in my above statement in your eyes please tell me where, im willing to listen.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Changes (24 March 2011)

Read the thread properly.........


----------



## friesian80 (24 March 2011)

Changes said:



			Read the thread properly.........
		
Click to expand...

I did read the thread properly, tell me where the communication between us is going wrong, from what I can gather I am asking you if the statement I made about the racing indusrty is true and you cant do that, I understand the racing industry isnt soley resposible for the slaughter indusrty but you seem to make out racing is only a tiny percentage of the problem, which im finding hard to get my head around., surely the way the industry works means there are a hell of a lot of TB's to dispose of, if in fact there is not then tell me where they go?
As for the disposal numbers in other disciples such as dressage, showjumping etc where do you get these facts and figures from, links to websites would be great. 

I will admit I find it hard to process everything at the moment (in fact my OH has to repeat things many times to be before I get it atm)  due to the fact on a high dosage of morphine every 2 hours 
So in all honesty I probably shouldnt be having a debate of any sort atm, but I am truely interested to learn the whole truth on horse slaughter and that is why Im asking questions and challenging your opinions, not to say you are wrong and I am right but to get information from people, inc you.


----------



## friesian80 (24 March 2011)

Changes said:



			What a sweeping generalisation of racing. Have you ANY idea what happens in producers yards for SJ and dressage? 

Don't tell me a 3yo or 4yo doing half pass and extended trot is in any way better than a 2yo just doing what is most natural to all horses, that of galloping. Plenty dressage youngsters don't stand up to the pressures imposed on them and end up going for slaughter, or being sold to idiots in the UK who think they've got a bargain until it goes hopping lame within weeks of purchase. 

The top SJ breeders loose jump the foals to see what has ability, those that don't are slaughtered. Those that are overfaced at 3 or 4 are sent to the markets for meat money, and/or then imported into the UK.

But you don't know this, because it's not written statistically for you to find out. 

.
		
Click to expand...

Let me take this quote from you for example, how do you know this, if there are no figures or statistics published then how can you say these other equine sports dispose of just as many horses as the racing industry does? 
Perhaps someone who has witnessed this happen on dressage or showjumping training yards can confirm that a lot if the horses who dont make the grade go for slaughter, if so id be interested to hear from them and can they confirm these numbers are equivelant to the racing industries disposal numbers?  Or perhaps you 'Changes' have witnessed this, if not how can you convince us that it happens in equal numbers to the racing ind.?
Again im not saying your figures are wrong I just cant take one persons word for it as gospel, im sure you can understand that?
I am fully aware that breeders make up a large percentage of horses sent for slaughter by their irresponsible breeding I see it every year in Shetland at the sales.


----------



## Natch (24 March 2011)

...


----------



## Natch (24 March 2011)

Changes said:



			OK, Naturally, let me question why you think that racing sends the biggest percentage to slaughter? 

It is my perception, based on my understanding of the industry. I can't prove anything with statistics, and I might be wrong. 

There are no statistics to back that up whatsoever. To qualify what you believe then you need to also quantify what proportion of other sports have a wastage rate rate with their horses. 

That's why I said it was my perception. However I'm not quite sure why you're picking this point with me, since as no statistics to prove my point, there are also mean there are also no statistics to prove otherwise. I deliberately said "it is my perception" because that's all it is.

There is considered to be around one million head of horses in the UK. Where are the records for the rest?

I don't condone in the slightest that racing loses control of the whereabouts of horses out of training, but they are the ONLY sport that even monitors horses when in training. No other equine sporting body has stringent controls over what premises can used, and spot check trainers. 

A smug remark about not being able to be outraged at more than one thing at a time is not appropriate given the seriousness of the current climate for horses.
		
Click to expand...

It was more flipant than smug, but based on serious truth. I think that in order for anything to be done about the number of horses going to slaughter from the UK, efforts are best concentrated in one area at a time, in order to be effective. I still maintain that I believe the best sector to start focusing on reducing wastage is racing. It has the stats, so any effect is measurable, and it has by far the most advanced scientific knowledge. It is high profile and has funds. I think it would be easier to start here and work across to other sports, than to start anywhere else. 

In saying this I absolutely don't wish to belittle the very welcome work which is already being done in other sectors, and don't wish to brush wastage in any sector of equestrianism under the carpet.

Out of interest, because my friend Google couldn't pick it up, where did you get your stats for the number of horses slaughtered in any given year? The best I could find was this article, which extrapolates to between 5-8,000 horses per year (based on figures given by the two slaughterhouses) or 6-10,000 as estimated by DEFRA (both in 2006 - perhaps you have more recent info?)




			What a sweeping generalisation of racing. Have you ANY idea what happens in producers yards for SJ and dressage? 

Don't tell me a 3yo or 4yo doing half pass and extended trot is in any way better than a 2yo just doing what is most natural to all horses, that of galloping. Plenty dressage youngsters don't stand up to the pressures imposed on them and end up going for slaughter, or being sold to idiots in the UK who think they've got a bargain until it goes hopping lame within weeks of purchase.
		
Click to expand...

And what a sweeping generalisation of dressage yards.  Where is the evidence for 3 and 4 year olds doing half pass and extended trot, and these plenty of dressage youngsters who don't stand up to the pressures?

Changes you are good on this subject, but please let's keep it constructive, and please realise that its unwise to dismiss others' claims on the basis of lack of evidence, and then do exactly the same yourself.


----------



## Serenity087 (24 March 2011)

Don't ban horse slaughter until we don't have any unwanted horses....

Sore topic, my baby girl was a Rescue.  Someone starved her for kicks.  It almost cost her her life.

I'd rather people had the balls to send horses to slaughter than another horse ever get starved to death again...


----------



## Changes (24 March 2011)

Perhaps you haven't seen the high performance sales videos for 3yo and 4yo horses doing dressage? They are all working to half pass.......... 

Do you know about the electric pads in front of fences that some SJ pros use to get their horses in the air?

As ever, not all SJ is bad, not all DR is bad, my point is not all racing is bad either. 

MY stats for slaughter are from a European study. The reason they're not available on google is because you have to pay for them.  I can't reproduce the info on here for that reason. 
 And also, nobody in the UK bar a few who really understand the problem, and the welfare societies, is interested.
Just because you can't find the stats for the wastage in other sections of the horse world (because they don't exist) is not proof it doesn't happen. 

In all truth, racing already funds so much - why should it fund the rest of the horse world that treats horses as commodities equally, if not moreso?


----------



## Changes (24 March 2011)

Friesian - READ what I wrote about percentages .......... at least 17,000 pa have to not be TBs ..........


----------



## Allover (24 March 2011)

Changes, unless i am reading this thread all wrong you are picking at Fresian80 for basically agreeing with you


----------



## friesian80 (24 March 2011)

Changes said:



			Friesian - READ what I wrote about percentages .......... at least 17,000 pa have to not be TBs ..........
		
Click to expand...

My good god how many times to I have to say I *KNOW* the racing industry is not solely responsible for the slaughter industry, I can quite believe that a large percentage are low priced natives, horses owned by individual ppl, breeders and dealers but I have NO evidence that an equal amount of SJ and dressage horses are slaughtered in comparison to race horses!  I have just spoken to a friend who has worked on dressage training yards for the last 10 years and she has never seen a dressage youngster sent to slaughter...im not saying it doesnt happen, but Im  sorry if your going to make statements like you have you have to back them up before ppl are going to change their minds, as I say id love someone to give an experience they have witnessed where a young dressage horse has been sent to slaughter if it does in fact happen.

Only facts you have given seem to be based in US numbers which you claim are the same as the UK but tbh I dont know if this statement is true so your figures to me are not convincing.


----------



## Natch (24 March 2011)

Changes said:



			As ever, not all SJ is bad, not all DR is bad, my point is not all racing is bad either. 

MY stats for slaughter are from a European study. The reason they're not available on google is because you have to pay for them.  I can't reproduce the info on here for that reason. 

Just because you can't find the stats for the wastage in other sections of the horse world (because they don't exist) is not proof it doesn't happen. 

In all truth, racing already funds so much - why should it fund the rest of the horse world that treats horses as commodities equally, if not moreso?
		
Click to expand...


I'm really not trying to claim all racing is bad.
Perhaps you wouldn't mind posting just the reference for the European study? 
We could dance the dance on "just because you can't find the stats" all day - I'd say it was stalemate, as neither you nor I can prove our theories.
I agree racing funds so much that the rest of the horse world benefits from, but how to take it forward when the funding just isn't available from the rest of the horse world?
[/LIST]



friesian80 said:



			My good god how many times to I have to say I *KNOW* the racing industry is not solely responsible for the slaughter industry, I can quite believe that a large percentage are low priced natives, horses owned by individual ppl, breeders and dealers but I have NO evidence that an equal amount of SJ and dressage horses are slaughtered in comparison to race horses!
		
Click to expand...

A bit more succinctly put then me but same gist


----------



## Changes (25 March 2011)

Friesian, I quoted the BHA article about the breakdown of racehorses went in 2006. I mentioned the US one earlier as a parallel horse society to ours. 

Naturally, I would have to reproduce a graph, which is copyrighted, so I can't. The information is on the European study undertaken by the Haras Nationaux. It's a huge study documenting the slaughter, import and export of horses across Europe. It's interesting, because it shows a significant drop in the slaughter of horses in Italy, for example, when the amended transport regs came into play in 2002. 

I'm afraid I cannot prove that overproduced youngsters go to slaughter, principally because there are no records of breeding, I just know they they do. But to turn this question back at you - what horses make up the other 17,000?

There are people who work in racing who don't believe that TBs go to slaughter either, so one person you know on a dressage yard is not exactly broad enough to draw a fair conclusion. As I keep saying, I'm not defending racing particularly, but trying to point out that other areas need addressing equally, if not more because they are totally unmonitored. Overproduction is everywhere.

In all honesty, those that send horses directly to slaughter from where they were at work, or in training, are not really a problem to my mind. They are being responsible and removing any possibility of a horse being passed from pillar to post and having a miserable existence.  

Unlike those that sell on their unwanteds, ie outgrown or too old, for a few quid to a dealer in part ex.........


----------



## friesian80 (25 March 2011)

Changes said:



			I'm afraid I cannot prove that overproduced youngsters go to slaughter, principally because there are no records of breeding, I just know they they do. But to turn this question back at you - what horses make up the other 17,000?

* I quite believe that some yongsters from other equine sports such as dressage etc do end up in slaugher, there will of course be a certain percentage from every equine discipline that will make up the slaughter stats and numbers.  In response to your question - 'what horses make up the other 17,000' well I obviously cant give you exact numbers of how many come from each section but I can tell you native ponies, breeders, dealers and prvate owners will contribute to this number you have provided  *


There are people who work in racing who don't believe that TBs go to slaughter either, so one person you know on a dressage yard is not exactly broad enough to draw a fair conclusion. As I keep saying, I'm not defending racing particularly, but trying to point out that other areas need addressing equally, if not more because they are totally unmonitored. Overproduction is everywhere.
* Absolutely agree that one persons opinion working in dressage does not give a clear idea of whether there are youngsters regularly sent for slaughter but for her to have worked in the industry for 10 years and never come across it does make me slightly suspicious.  Im sure someone working in the racing industry for 10 years would have quite a clear idea that race horses go to slaughter quite regularly.
I still dont believe that the dressage and SJing industry need to be addressed EQUALLY to  the racing industry, I have no stats or experience or even word of mouth to support this statement. However I do agree that they still overbreed and numbers need to monitored  so clear statistics are produced*

In all honesty, those that send horses directly to slaughter from where they were at work, or in training, are not really a problem to my mind. They are being responsible and removing any possibility of a horse being passed from pillar to post and having a miserable existence. * Agree If horse has issues and it clearly cant be found a suitable home then sending to slaughter can prevent it from a far from ideal life, which may in fact end up in it being slaughtered at the end of the day anyway. *

Unlike those that sell on their unwanteds, ie outgrown or too old, for a few quid to a dealer in part ex.........
		
Click to expand...

The main thing I was trying to discuss with you before was that you directed this statment to me:



Changes said:



			What a sweeping generalisation of racing. Have you ANY idea what happens in producers yards for SJ and dressage? 

Don't tell me a 3yo or 4yo doing half pass and extended trot is in any way better than a 2yo just doing what is most natural to all horses, that of galloping. Plenty dressage youngsters don't stand up to the pressures imposed on them and end up going for slaughter, or being sold to idiots in the UK who think they've got a bargain until it goes hopping lame within weeks of purchase.
		
Click to expand...

After my comment



friesian80 said:



			I would have thought the racing indusrty over other equine sports would be disposing of more horses a year because of the fact they are broken in at 2, thrashed, have a higher percentage of serious injuries than other equine sports and their careers tend to be quite short.  Its not so easy to then sell on a horse who has been through the racing experience, im not saying it doesnt happen of course a lot of ppl have ex-racers but Id imagine a larger percentage of ex racers are sent to slaughter than say a horse that doesnt jump high enough or isnt so great at dressage.
		
Click to expand...

I still stand by my above statement and find information on the internet to support all of the above (as well as it being quite commonly known throught equine inthusiams).

Let me again outline the fact Im not blaming the slaughter industry solely on racing, im fully aware it only makes up a percentage of horses sent to slaughter as said horses from dealers, breeders, natives and from individual homes all contribute to the numbers slaughtered.

And yes I can accept that horses from other equine sports such as dressage and SJing also contribute to the numbers of slaughter but I CANT be convinced this is in equal numbers to the amount sent from racing.

I quite agree with this statement



Allover said:



			Changes, unless i am reading this thread all wrong you are picking at Fresian80 for basically agreeing with you 

Click to expand...

I think at the end of the day we both have the horses best interest at heart, we both agree horses from all walks of life make up the slaughter stats and the blame most definately should not be placed on the racing industry alone.

But of course we then need to decide where we start in addressing the numbers of overbreeding in the UK, this is something none of us have agreed on and instead of bickering over who slaughters the most horses in the UK we should be trying to find a solution to the problem (if there actually is one).


----------



## tristar (25 March 2011)

the bottom line is its all wrong, breaking yearlings, overdoing young horses training, the continued breeding of wild and stud book registered ponies, for me each one is a tragedy 
the question i want answered is where does one begin to STOP at least some of it and put the energy of this debate into constructive action? 
i have seen with my own eyes horse and ponies loaded onto a lorry without partitions at a continental sale in the presence of a ministry vet in 2004, this is one reason i don't go anymore it is too distressing for words


----------



## Changes (25 March 2011)

I worked in racing and had no idea racehorses went directly for slaughter. 

I think it's the word 'thrashed' that really got my goat in your post, friesian, because that is just not true. 

Whether or not you choose to accept that's what happens with sportshorses, is entirely up to you. I can't prove it any more than you can disprove it. 

I can back up my figures already stated for 2006 with studies, but I can't copy them onto here. 

Tristar, rather than be too distressed to face the markets, I go to them, document and report on them and to the authorities than should do something. Sometimes they do sometimes they don't. But the more evidence of illegal activity reported, the more likelihood there is of further changes being made to the current laws.

This is going round in circles, so I'll bow out.


----------



## fburton (25 March 2011)

Changes said:



			Naturally, I would have to reproduce a graph, which is copyrighted, so I can't. The information is on the European study undertaken by the Haras Nationaux. It's a huge study documenting the slaughter, import and export of horses across Europe. It's interesting, because it shows a significant drop in the slaughter of horses in Italy, for example, when the amended transport regs came into play in 2002.
		
Click to expand...

You can't reproduce the whole study document, but if the graph is a small part of it you may well be able to do so under "fair use" guidelines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

I'd be astonished if the authors (and/or copyright holders) of the study would be unwilling to disseminate their _data_ - otherwise what is the point of the study? (If the report is in fact confidential, one must wonder about the motives for making it so.)


----------



## Changes (25 March 2011)

Just to clarify - you can pay to download it, you just can't copy it -studies like these cost a lot of money to reproduce, so it is not confidential, just not free.


----------



## fburton (25 March 2011)

Changes said:



			Just to clarify - you can pay to download it, you just can't copy it -studies like these cost a lot of money to reproduce, so it is not confidential, just not free.
		
Click to expand...

Do you have a link where I can order a copy, please?


----------



## fburton (25 March 2011)

Changes said:



			I can back up my figures already stated for 2006 with studies, but I can't copy them onto here.
		
Click to expand...

If it's a handful of figures, you can - fair use.


----------



## jokadoka (25 March 2011)

fburton said:



			Do you have a link where I can order a copy, please?
		
Click to expand...

I'd be quite interested in a copy - and yes, quite happy to pay for it - if you have a link, I'd be very grateful.


----------



## Fire_Fly (25 March 2011)

Just posting this link again in case anyone wants to join. The more knowledge the better 

http://www.beta.facebook.com/RealFactsOnEquineSlaughter


----------



## Allover (25 March 2011)

tristar said:



			the bottom line is its all wrong, breaking yearlings, overdoing young horses training, the continued breeding of wild and stud book registered ponies, for me each one is a tragedy 
the question i want answered is where does one begin to STOP at least some of it and put the energy of this debate into constructive action? 
i have seen with my own eyes horse and ponies loaded onto a lorry without partitions at a continental sale in the presence of a ministry vet in 2004, this is one reason i don't go anymore it is too distressing for words
		
Click to expand...

If you come up with anything PM me please


----------



## Changes (25 March 2011)

This is the HN one - I googled it so it must be publicly available now. Sorry - it did cost to pay for when it came out, I just assumed it still would ........ 

http://www.haras-nationaux.fr/uploads/media/horse_industry.pdf

I don't know how to get the BHA one though...... maybe email them and ask for the 2006 survey? I can't find it atm.........

ETA, don't forget the import and export are legitimate figures, not the trading from the abattoir queues.


----------



## friesian80 (25 March 2011)

Changes said:



			This is the HN one - I googled it so it must be publicly available now. Sorry - it did cost to pay for when it came out, I just assumed it still would ........ 

http://www.haras-nationaux.fr/uploads/media/horse_industry.pdf

I don't know how to get the BHA one though...... maybe email them and ask for the 2006 survey? I can't find it atm.........

ETA, don't forget the import and export are legitimate figures, not the trading from the abattoir queues.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for providing the link Changes but to me I cant see where it confirms dressage/SJer's are slaughtered in equal numbers to racers, if im missing something then I do appologise.
Or maybe the BHA one is where the stats are on this subject?  But I fear that figures from 2006 are outdated as the recession kicked in in 2008 Id imagine these figures are inaccurate?

Just to add I have been speaking to a girl who is studying this at college, she has said to me that horses from other disciplines are sent to slaughter, pehaps not as many as racers but it is regualrly done.

She has also told me the UK slaughterhouses have been noted to process the horses in an unhumane way, seriously overcrowded on the lorry, left with no warer and handled in a manner nobody would agree was humane.  She even mentioned that skinning horses alive had been video'd but this  came from animal aid who I think are against slughter.  She did mention though that video camera's have been instaled in the abattiors to prevent cruelty happening on the production line within the slaughterhouse.
Please note I am fully aware all the above could be wrong but did make me wonder if our slaughterhouses are as good as they have been made out to be???


----------



## Changes (25 March 2011)

friesian80 said:



			Thanks for providing the link Changes but to me I cant see where it confirms dressage/SJer's are slaughtered in equal numbers to racers, if im missing something then I do appologise.
Or maybe the BHA one is where the stats are on this subject?  But I fear that figures from 2006 are outdated as the recession kicked in in 2008 Id imagine these figures are inaccurate?
		
Click to expand...

Do you READ what I write???? FFS - I have continually said I can't prove, as you can't disprove, about the sporthorses going for slaughter. Because there are no records..........

I am showing you that 20,000 were slaughtered in the UK in 2006, which you questioned. 

Groundhog day............


----------



## friesian80 (25 March 2011)

Changes said:



			Do you READ what I write???? FFS - I have continually said I can't prove, as you can't disprove, about the sporthorses going for slaughter. Because there are no records..........

I am showing you that 20,000 were slaughtered in the UK in 2006, which you questioned. 

Groundhog day............
		
Click to expand...

You can be as impolite and obnoxious as you want it wont stop me asking questions, nowhere in this thread have I been insulting and short tempered with you, Im simple trying to find out more about UK horse slaughter.

I will wait for others to reply to your graph before commenting

I fear I will get a less than polite reply............take a chill pill


----------



## paisley (25 March 2011)

Hi there- whilst this thread has clearly got a lot going for it, I'm going to refute a couple of points. 
I cant comment on the over-crowded lorry, as I havent seen them in situ, but at the Nantwich Abbatoir they have hay and water. Its rubbish hay and not altogether clean water, but it is there. 
And it is simply not possible for the horse to be skinned alive, purely due to the method of dressing the carcass. Following initial slaughter and subsequent exsanguination, the head is removed, I dont think anyone can argue that the animal is dead after that.


----------



## friesian80 (25 March 2011)

paisley said:



			Hi there- whilst this thread has clearly got a lot going for it, I'm going to refute a couple of points. 
I cant comment on the over-crowded lorry, as I havent seen them in situ, but at the Nantwich Abbatoir they have hay and water. Its rubbish hay and not altogether clean water, but it is there. 
And it is simply not possible for the horse to be skinned alive, purely due to the method of dressing the carcass. Following initial slaughter and subsequent exsanguination, the head is removed, I dont think anyone can argue that the animal is dead after that.
		
Click to expand...

Hey 

So you have visited the Nantwich Abatoir, what was your overall opinion on it, how much did you see?
I am certainly not convinced on the skinning idea as I said I think the artivle was published by a anti slaughter group.
Would be interested to find out if video cameras have in fact ben put in place to insure cruelty to the animals are minimal.
I watched a documentary on ITV about 5 years ago it filmed undercover the day to day handling of animals who go through the slaughterhouse and to this day I still often think about it as the cruelty was unbelievable.


----------



## paisley (25 March 2011)

Any abbatoir is going to be a bit hard to visit, so there is that certain smell (and anyone who has done dissection will recognise it, especially if it was nutrition/intestine related).

At Nantwich, the horses are kept in a indoor barn, in several large pens, with some bedding, hay and water. Its not quality, but I dont see then buying in the best stuff The  horse dont seem panicked, other than any other horses reaction to going somewhere new.
There is a small field, with water/hay for 'overflow' (sorry about the word, cant think of any other way to say it).

Please bear in mind this is an exceptionally grim and tough job (in my opionion), so the staff are matter of fact, but not disrespectful. I think we might see it as uncaring, but I dont feel thats the case. 

And briefly, in terms of proportion of competition horses versus racehorses going to slaughter, not even Weatherbys has that information. So the figures detailing them as dead are just that, when passports are returned (known as 'deads and geldings' day at Weatherbys), they state the reason for death, but not the method.


----------



## paisley (25 March 2011)

And apologies if this has been discussed before, but horses are not quite truly companion animals , such as dogs/cats, or livestock eg cows/sheep. 

So I think we struggle with the idea of making commercial profit from them. I was always amazed at the attitude of some people when I worked in eventing of 'oh he/she sold her top horse just to buy a house'. Some people have to make a living from it you know!

The TB industry is just that, its aim is to make money, rightly or wrongly. 

So yes, over-breeding and wastage need to be examined further, and abattoirs regulated for the highest possible standards.

Would I send mine to an abattoir? Never in a million years. Any horse I have will be euthansed at home, by the hunt or vet. I dont want him to travel if its unecessary and I want it to be done in a familiar place. 

Having said that, I absolutely believe in the current need for abattoirs. Having seen some of the results of some ignorant idiots irresponsible attitude to horse breeding and management, euthanasia is actually a kindness. People dont see that the a few hours of what they consider to be mis-treatment at UK abattoirs dont even come close to the years of neglect that horse has experienced


----------



## jokadoka (26 March 2011)

Changes said:



			This is the HN one - I googled it so it must be publicly available now. Sorry - it did cost to pay for when it came out, I just assumed it still would ........ 

http://www.haras-nationaux.fr/uploads/media/horse_industry.pdf

I don't know how to get the BHA one though...... maybe email them and ask for the 2006 survey? I can't find it atm.........

ETA, don't forget the import and export are legitimate figures, not the trading from the abattoir queues.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, will read it properly after the muck out!


----------



## brigantia (26 March 2011)

I watched a documentary on ITV about 5 years ago it filmed undercover the day to day handling of animals who go through the slaughterhouse and to this day I still often think about it as the cruelty was unbelievable.
		
Click to expand...

Friesan80, this is interesting. I wonder if there's still a link to view this? 

In these threads, most people seem to be of the opinion that UK slaughterhouses are the best and most humane in the world. While, for the horses' sake, I certainly hope they are humane, there is also a certain ring of propaganda to some of these claims. The more actual facts we know about horse slaughter, in the UK and elsewhere, the better.


----------



## Changes (26 March 2011)

Well said, Paisley. 



friesian80 said:



			You can be as impolite and obnoxious as you want it wont stop me asking questions, nowhere in this thread have I been insulting and short tempered with you, Im simple trying to find out more about UK horse slaughter.

I will wait for others to reply to your graph before commenting

I fear I will get a less than polite reply............take a chill pill 

Click to expand...

I supplied you with the information you asked for - the head of horse slaughtered in 2006. You answered me so fast that you won't have had time to look through the document properly, other than to try and find figures which I had already told you don't exist. 

You are either being deliberately obtuse, or incapable of digesting what you read. Either way, don't bother directing any more questions at me in particular because it is impossible and frustrating to have a rational discussion with you. 

I agree wholeheartedly with you Paisley -I'd just qualify that all commercial horse breeding is about money, right across the board.


----------



## Natch (26 March 2011)

Changes said:



			This is the HN one - I googled it so it must be publicly available now. Sorry - it did cost to pay for when it came out, I just assumed it still would ........ 

http://www.haras-nationaux.fr/uploads/media/horse_industry.pdf

I don't know how to get the BHA one though...... maybe email them and ask for the 2006 survey? I can't find it atm.........

ETA, don't forget the import and export are legitimate figures, not the trading from the abattoir queues.
		
Click to expand...


Thanks for this, its what I was after.

The graph cites the source of the data as fao 2006. Any idea who fao are? Id usually expect to find a list of references at the end of the document but cant see one.

Might be because I am viewing from my phone though!

Does anyone have an opinion or evidence on what % of horses going for slaughter are exported, rather than done at an abbatoir? Also, can anyone tell me if horses can be  slaughtered for meat outside of an abbatoir?


----------



## paisley (26 March 2011)

In terms of UK abattoirs when compared to footage of non-UK ones , then yes they are the best. 

Are they humane? If you believe that euthansaia by bullet is humane, yes.

Can standards be improved? Of course they can, in terms of better forage and cleaner bedding. But you are asking the slaughter houses to provide a better quality of care than quite a lot of these horses have ever been given in their lives

I'm not trying to dish out propoganda (and I'm not quite so vain as to think that comment was aimed at me!), but as I eat meat, I'm trying to justify my own acceptance of what I think is okay for livestock slaughter and compare it to horses.

I appreciate that profit comes from breeding for the meat market, therefore supply and demand. But until over-breeding is more rigorously controlled (for all types), there will always be an excess of unwanted horses. 

In all honesty, I would prefer euthanasia for these horses by a local knackerman, but I cant see this happening any  time soon


----------



## friesian80 (26 March 2011)

Changes said:



			Well said, Paisley. 

I supplied you with the information you asked for - the head of horse slaughtered in 2006. You answered me so fast that you won't have had time to look through the document properly, other than to try and find figures which I had already told you don't exist. 

You are either being deliberately obtuse, or incapable of digesting what you read. Either way, don't bother directing any more questions at me in particular because it is impossible and frustrating to have a rational discussion with you. 

I agree wholeheartedly with you Paisley -I'd just qualify that all commercial horse breeding is about money, right across the board.
		
Click to expand...

Ok your graph is split into 2 catagories, riding horse and racing horse - correct?  May I please ask you what 'riding horse' is classes as?  Is this anything other than racer?

When have I ever disputed the number that were slaughtered in 2006?  All I have asked you to confirm is that the racing industry sends the same approx to slaughter p.a. as Sjer's and dressage horses which you have told me many times you cant provide due to lack of stats kept - which I accept.

Please stop stressing out if I ask you a question, if you dont want to answer simpy ignore, id rather that than have sarcasm and anger directed at me. As ive said many time before im not trying to prove you wrong, nor argue with you simply trying to understand more about the slaughter industry.

Brigantia - I will see if I can find the footage on the net from the documentary.


----------



## friesian80 (26 March 2011)

brigantia said:



			Friesan80, this is interesting. I wonder if there's still a link to view this? 

In these threads, most people seem to be of the opinion that UK slaughterhouses are the best and most humane in the world. While, for the horses' sake, I certainly hope they are humane, there is also a certain ring of propaganda to some of these claims. The more actual facts we know about horse slaughter, in the UK and elsewhere, the better.
		
Click to expand...

Cant seem to find any way to view the documentary, but found a few facts on here, inc that all slaughterhouses must ha e CCTV
http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/NEWS/pr_factory//2188//
Some might remember this thread
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=100168

It seems there is no footage of the slaughthouse since 2007.
http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/f/CAMPAIGNS/blog//4//?be_id=94

Would be good to see more recent footage of both abattoirs, I believe both have CCTV camera's in place but I wonder if they are checked?


----------



## Changes (26 March 2011)

Naturally said:



			Thanks for this, its what I was after.

The graph cites the source of the data as fao 2006. Any idea who fao are? Id usually expect to find a list of references at the end of the document but cant see one.

Might be because I am viewing from my phone though!

Does anyone have an opinion or evidence on what % of horses going for slaughter are exported, rather than done at an abbatoir? Also, can anyone tell me if horses can be  slaughtered for meat outside of an abbatoir?
		
Click to expand...

No idea who FAO are, sorry. I've seen it before, but I can't think for the life of me what it is. The numbers on the study will be the abattoir records, I guess.

I believe the export figures from the UK are those exported legitimately to race, to compete in other sports such as SJ and eventing, to breed, to move stable, etc. I don't think there is a record of those exported for slaughter as those that do that are working under the legitimate radar. 

Horses slaughtered for human consumption must be slaughtered at a EU approved abattoir.


----------



## fburton (26 March 2011)

Changes said:



			This is the HN one - I googled it so it must be publicly available now. Sorry - it did cost to pay for when it came out, I just assumed it still would ........ 

http://www.haras-nationaux.fr/uploads/media/horse_industry.pdf

Click to expand...

Thanks for that, Changes.


----------



## mymare (26 March 2011)

paisley said:



			Would I send mine to an abattoir? Never in a million years. Any horse I have will be euthansed at home, by the hunt or vet. I dont want him to travel if its unecessary and I want it to be done in a familiar place. 

Having said that, I absolutely believe in the current need for abattoirs. Having seen some of the results of some ignorant idiots irresponsible attitude to horse breeding and management, euthanasia is actually a kindness. People dont see that the a few hours of what they consider to be mis-treatment at UK abattoirs dont even come close to the years of neglect that horse has experienced
		
Click to expand...

This is exactly how I feel.


----------



## ester (26 March 2011)

FAO?

http://www.fao.org/


----------



## Changes (26 March 2011)

ester said:



			FAO?

http://www.fao.org/

Click to expand...

That's it! Most of the data gathering on global movement of horses is made because of the food chain.


----------



## brigantia (26 March 2011)

I'm not trying to dish out propoganda (and I'm not quite so vain as to think that comment was aimed at me!), but as I eat meat, I'm trying to justify my own acceptance of what I think is okay for livestock slaughter and compare it to horses.
		
Click to expand...

Paisley, I definitely wasn't referring to you! Your comments have been very balanced. Sorry if there was any misunderstanding there. 

Elsewhere in these discussions we've had people claiming that the slaughter house is more humane than putting a horse to sleep by humane injection in their home environment and that seemed perhaps exagerrated and overly trusting on the goodness of the slaughter industry.


----------



## brigantia (26 March 2011)

Cant seem to find any way to view the documentary, but found a few facts on here, inc that all slaughterhouses must ha e CCTV
http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/NEWS/pr_factory//2188//
Some might remember this thread
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forum...d.php?t=100168

It seems there is no footage of the slaughthouse since 2007.
http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/f/CAMP...//4//?be_id=94

Would be good to see more recent footage of both abattoirs, I believe both have CCTV camera's in place but I wonder if they are checked?
		
Click to expand...

Thank you, Friesan80!


----------



## paisley (26 March 2011)

brigantia- that'll teach me to read the whole thread properly!  No, I didnt think it was aimed at me at all.

Hmm, some people consider the abattoir better than euthanaisa at home? Injection over bullet is a whole other discussion I feel, and what has worked for one , will be a horror story for another.  
It depends greatly on the age as injection seems to be more peaceful for the older ones, and immediate health because if you cant find a vein and the horse is suffering a bullet is surely better.
But as I've said, I want mine done at home no matter what.


----------



## Amaranta (26 March 2011)

Personally, although I firmly believe that our equine slaughterhouses are amongst the most humane in the world, Animal Aid inadvertently confirmed this when they published their warts and all video.  I would like to add none of mine will end up in one and will all be pts at home, probably by bullet as I, personally, feel this is more humane.  I am, however, a realist and do know that not everyone has the finance to afford to have theirs pts at home, there are also the dealers who buy specifically for the meat market who would not have the inclination to do so.

The definition of propaganda:  A statement made in order to influence to your own ends by purporting to be fact whilst omitting truth.  Quite honestly to infer that anyone on this thread is using propaganda is, quite frankly, ludicrous!


----------



## friesian80 (26 March 2011)

paisley said:



			brigantia- that'll teach me to read the whole thread properly!  No, I didnt think it was aimed at me at all.

Hmm, some people consider the abattoir better than euthanaisa at home? Injection over bullet is a whole other discussion I feel, and what has worked for one , will be a horror story for another.  
It depends greatly on the age as injection seems to be more peaceful for the older ones, and immediate health because if you cant find a vein and the horse is suffering a bullet is surely better.
But as I've said, I want mine done at home no matter what.
		
Click to expand...

I would too choose injection over bullet but perhaps that is for selfish reasons, when my 28yr old boy was euthanised the vet told me after the drug was administered that it takes longer for the oldies to actually pass away, due to the fact their circulation is slower meaning it takes longer for the pento to reach the heart.  My boy was sedated first thank god as it took a good 20 mins before he actually passed away.  It was all very peaceful but I didnt know he would take longer to go than a younger horse euthanised by injection.



Amaranta said:



			Personally, although I firmly believe that our equine slaughterhouses are amongst the most humane in the world, Animal Aid inadvertently confirmed this when they published their warts and all video. .

The definition of propaganda:  A statement made in order to influence to your own ends by purporting to be fact whilst omitting truth.  Quite honestly to infer that anyone on this thread is using propaganda is, quite frankly, ludicrous!
		
Click to expand...


I totally agree, if animal aid were trying to convince us our British horse slaughter was inhumane they did a poor job.  I know of ppl who watched the footage and were amazed at how nontraumatic the whole process was.

May have even convinced them that sending their own horse was not such a bad option.


----------



## brigantia (27 March 2011)

The definition of propaganda: A statement made in order to influence to your own ends by purporting to be fact whilst omitting truth. Quite honestly to infer that anyone on this thread is using propaganda is, quite frankly, ludicrous!
		
Click to expand...

Anyone is capable of reading through all these posts and drawing their own conclusions. I felt some of the posts and remarks at the beginning of the discussion were completely OTT, but I'm very pleased that this evolved into a balanced and informative discussion!


----------

