# Barefoot completely out of ideas



## ktj1891 (28 August 2015)

My lad has been barefoot nearly two years now and he is still uncomfortable over any stoney/ less than smooth ground. 

I have tried everything I can and nothing seems to work and I have no definite idea of why he is so sore. 

I want to ride my horse and not have nothing to ride months on end where he cant do anything because he is so sore. 

My idea is to shoe him in the spring through summer and back off again through winter. 

I know this is very vague so if you have any questions ask me but I cant write everything down as I would be here all year. 

I just feel the reason for going barefoot is to have a happier healthier horse, and he has never been that since he has been barefoot because nothing I do seems to get him to a completely sound healthy state.


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## MotherOfChickens (28 August 2015)

well, I don't blame people for shoeing but have you tried boots?


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## zandp (28 August 2015)

Diet ok ? Not got EMS or Cushings ? What grazing is the yard on ?

I'd try boots if I wanted to keep him barefoot.


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## ktj1891 (28 August 2015)

He wears boots hacking but he is even sore bringing in and turning out over stones. Plus my yard area is stoney. 

He is on copra, linseed and equivita, adlib meadow hay and turned out 24/7 on grass track. Although since start of this week he is being kept on the stable yard with soaked hay. Doubt he has ems he's a poor doer ex racer.  Not sure on cushings. What do you mean what grazing is the yard on? It's ex deer farm is all I know.


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## Goldenstar (28 August 2015)

If BF does not work for you then try shoes no one can say you have not given it a try 
Giving a shoeing break within every year and see how you go .


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## Exploding Chestnuts (28 August 2015)

Kinda difficult to diagnose on the net, I would also ask vet to discuss, and farrier.


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## ktj1891 (28 August 2015)

My vet isn't barefoot pro and she's previously told me to show when I first took them off. I don't use a farrier I use a trimmer and again she obviously wants me stay barefoot. All I know is I want to be able to ride and have a happy sound horse.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (28 August 2015)

Can you post photos, side on and sole.
Is the horse heel first landing and walking out on tarmac.
Do you do much on tarmac to self-rasp the feet.
Is the work regime on hard surfaces as well as soft. If only ever on soft surfaces it will not help.
What happens in winter when on soaked hay with minerals?
How much MgO is has getting, how much minerals, is it a mineral for barefoot horses.
Have you read the key blogs on Rockley?
If the trimmer has the best welfare of the horse at heart she will not want horse to suffer, what is her advice, and just as importantly have you taken it in  the past, as she will give up advising if repeatedly ignored [not saying you do this, but some do].


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## Exploding Chestnuts (28 August 2015)

ktj1891 said:



			My vet isn't barefoot pro and she's previously told me to show when I first took them off. I don't use a farrier I use a trimmer and again she obviously wants me stay barefoot. All I know is I want to be able to ride and have a happy sound horse.
		
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The advice to ask vet is to think about other problems rather than advice on barefooting.
What did your vet say when you took them off?


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## ktj1891 (29 August 2015)

Can't really tell if he definitely lands heel first I can only really see if going downhill. He doesn't really self rasp as I only ride him completely barefoot to cool him down after a schooling session- only on the smooth Tarmac. For all other hacking he wears boots and pads. He's fine in the school, grass and smooth Tarmac it's only over stones. He does a variety of work in the school, grass and hacking. 

In winter even though he's in the whole paddock rather than track he copes better with his feet. His hay isn't soaked in winter just wetted. 

Read all rockley stuff and everything barefoot I just can't see to get it right. 

I will post photos of his feet later hopefully. Someone suggested keeping him off grass 100% for a while and cutting his feed.

If i do this how long should I do it for? I will keep him on my stoney yard should I boot him? He does have soft spots on his soles at the apex of his frogs.


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## Goldenstar (29 August 2015)

Get a good farrier and try shoes .


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 August 2015)

I am guessing here that the soles are thin and lack concavity, so a full on discussion with one of the specialist companies, Forageplus, Progressive Earth or the Equimins nutritionist [Matt?].
I would buy a months supply of Pro Hoof and also some MgO, calulate exactly how much magnesium he is getting now, if less than 10mg per day, increase it to that level, and keep increasing daily.
The grass which is greenest has most sugars and least Magnesium: spring and autumn.
If you want to trial for reduction of sugars and increase of fibre, have him stabled on soaked hay for six hours per day, do not graze the morning grass or frosted grass or lush green grass.
If you can walk in hand every day for 30 minutes on tarmac for 30 days, I think you will soon find that he will improve, you should be able to tell if he is striding out happliy and if he is landing heel first, but ask someone to walk him past you on the level. This is the sort of thing your trimmer should be doing with you. In fact you want to get him self trimming, self balancing, self carriage.
You say you have done everything, if so use a different type of shoe or put steel shoes on, I don't want to critcise, but if he is so bad he can't be ridden for months on end, I would find this unacceptable but would also think there is something very wrong, and needs a vet who is able to discuss feet with you. If the only thing he can say is put shoes on, then I would ask why. There are no horses born with steel shoes, and few are shod before riding.
Ask a good farrier to come and discuss feet with you, pay him for his time, ask him to discuss your horse's feet.
Use boots when taking him to the field.
No pony nuts/sugar/starchy feeds/molasses/lickits/carrots etc etc.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Get a good farrier and try shoes .
		
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There might be something wrong with this horse, so it is important to find out.
I am pretty unconvinced by the barefoot trimmer as she should have covered all this, but we only have OPs viewpoint, not that of the trimmer.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 August 2015)

My diet for your horse, weighing in at 500kgs.

Petscoop or more of soaked quickbeet, lots more in winter, if underweight replace with copra.
50gms micronised linseed increase to 200gms by xmas, do not wait till he loses condition
35 gms mineral for barefoot [includes MgO 10gms]
25gms salt, not pink salt which has iron in it.
Petscoop non molassed chaff with a few herbs for taste and texture.
Ad lib soaked haylage or hay.
Avoid alfalfa, avoid molasses, sugars  & cereals esp barley and wheatfeed rubbish, no bagged feeds.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (29 August 2015)

I had another look at your diet and recommend you change minerals, purely because this one is not working for you: make a spreadsheet with all the individual minerals he is getting, and either ask another company for advice, or find one that is different, or get analysis done [forageplus], I am not sure if forage or soils should be analysed, but this is going to be a more scientific approach.

Are there any known unusual soils in your area, certain areas of the country have deficiencies and imbalances. Ask a local sheep/cattle farmer if YO is not forthcoming.
Even if you shoe, you should still want to have his diet correct, but it is strange if the other horses on the yard are doing well, are any of them barefoot?


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## criso (29 August 2015)

The fact he does better in the winter suggests that grass is part of the problem.  I have an ex rockley horse and am in touch with others so know some of the trials they go through with their horses. Some have seen massive differences by moving yards for good and bad.  There is nothing obvious you can see by looking at grass but some it better than other.  

The thing with tracks is that you can end up with the horse on short overgrazed stressed grass which is problematic.  One friend had real problems as the yard expanded and the fields were really short stressed overgrazed. She moved and is doing much better.

Look at the hay, if something is wrong there soaking won't necessary fix it. Someone else I know found success by switching from meadow hay (soaked) (which can vary massively) to bagged Timothy Haylage.

While feed is important, fiddling with 500g of feed is nothing against the 15kg of forage they may be getting.


The one thing you could try if possible is mineral balancing your grazing.  If there is a huge imbalance and it could be that balancing that out will help.  You would get advice about the best feed for your horse in your environment.


I think your options are 

1) Mineral balance
2) Look at forage note this may not be fixable on your current yard
3) Shoe
4) Accept Boots are part of your routine for the present at least.

ETA just because someone in your area has one analysis done, don't trust it.  I moved less than a mile down the road, got  a new analysis done and found some huge differences that completely changed minerals I was feeding.


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## Goldenstar (29 August 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			There might be something wrong with this horse, so it is important to find out.
I am pretty unconvinced by the barefoot trimmer as she should have covered all this, but we only have OPs viewpoint, not that of the trimmer.
		
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Of course the horse is in less than optimal health .
Shoes may well be the answer to managing that .


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## Achinghips (29 August 2015)

Try asking advice on the barefoot horse owners group UK on Facebook


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## ktj1891 (30 August 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I am guessing here that the soles are thin and lack concavity, so a full on discussion with one of the specialist companies, Forageplus, Progressive Earth or the Equimins nutritionist [Matt?].
I would buy a months supply of Pro Hoof and also some MgO, calulate exactly how much magnesium he is getting now, if less than 10mg per day, increase it to that level, and keep increasing daily.
The grass which is greenest has most sugars and least Magnesium: spring and autumn.
If you want to trial for reduction of sugars and increase of fibre, have him stabled on soaked hay for six hours per day, do not graze the morning grass or frosted grass or lush green grass.
If you can walk in hand every day for 30 minutes on tarmac for 30 days, I think you will soon find that he will improve, you should be able to tell if he is striding out happliy and if he is landing heel first, but ask someone to walk him past you on the level. This is the sort of thing your trimmer should be doing with you. In fact you want to get him self trimming, self balancing, self carriage.
You say you have done everything, if so use a different type of shoe or put steel shoes on, I don't want to critcise, but if he is so bad he can't be ridden for months on end, I would find this unacceptable but would also think there is something very wrong, and needs a vet who is able to discuss feet with you. If the only thing he can say is put shoes on, then I would ask why. There are no horses born with steel shoes, and few are shod before riding.
Ask a good farrier to come and discuss feet with you, pay him for his time, ask him to discuss your horse's feet.
Use boots when taking him to the field.
No pony nuts/sugar/starchy feeds/molasses/lickits/carrots etc etc.
		
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He's been in fp balancer before no difference in sensitivity. He's on equivita which has 12g mag ox but I've now started adding an extra 50ml scoop. I'm going to do a trial keeping him in for a week on soaked hay but not sure if I should feed don't really want to drop the balancers. I could give linseed and healthy herbal chaff? Should I see an improvement in this time?


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## ktj1891 (30 August 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I had another look at your diet and recommend you change minerals, purely because this one is not working for you: make a spreadsheet with all the individual minerals he is getting, and either ask another company for advice, or find one that is different, or get analysis done [forageplus], I am not sure if forage or soils should be analysed, but this is going to be a more scientific approach.

Are there any known unusual soils in your area, certain areas of the country have deficiencies and imbalances. Ask a local sheep/cattle farmer if YO is not forthcoming.
Even if you shoe, you should still want to have his diet correct, but it is strange if the other horses on the yard are doing well, are any of them barefoot?
		
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I've only just put him in equivita the one with vit e and mycosorb he's on his first tub. 
There are 7 other horses on my yard that are barefoot and all but 1 of them is just conventionally kept. None of them have problems but then none of them are thoroughbred ex racers.


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## ktj1891 (30 August 2015)

Feet as of today sorry they are on grass and he is due a trim. 

https://m.facebook.com/780808798/albums/10153620773378799/


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## Exploding Chestnuts (30 August 2015)

ktj1891 said:



			I've only just put him in equivita the one with vit e and mycosorb he's on his first tub. 
There are 7 other horses on my yard that are barefoot and all but 1 of them is just conventionally kept. None of them have problems but then none of them are thoroughbred ex racers.
		
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I would aim for self trimming, if he is only ever  on soft ground he will not be able to self trim.
I thought micronised linseed has vit E.
I would phone previous supplier and ask why diet did not work.
I can t see feet but I would probably get a good farrier to balance them, and shoe.


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## Gloi (30 August 2015)

facebook link isn't working


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## Graeme Burt farrier (30 August 2015)

ktj1891 said:



			I've only just put him in equivita the one with vit e and mycosorb he's on his first tub. 
There are 7 other horses on my yard that are barefoot and all but 1 of them is just conventionally kept. None of them have problems but then none of them are thoroughbred ex racers.
		
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I am a barefoot friendly farrier. In my experience what you are going through is a part of the normal balance of barefoot/shod horses. Around 60% of all the horses I deal with are barefoot (my own included) a further 20% are only shod in front, but the remainder really cannot get by without shoes. So if there are 8 horses in your yard, its likely that one will need shoes, unfortunately, its yours.

All horses feet are not the same, and despite what the die-hard barefooters might say. And the fact is, you have a horse that you cannot ride because his feet are so sore. Whats the point of having a horse you cant use?  Im not saying that shoes are the definite answer, they are not without drawbacks, but neither are they the spawn of the devil as some might have you believe. In the real world, some horses do need shoes.


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## gunnergundog (30 August 2015)

Graeme Burt farrier said:



			I am a barefoot friendly farrier. In my experience what you are going through is a part of the normal balance of barefoot/shod horses. Around 60% of all the horses I deal with are barefoot (my own included) a further 20% are only shod in front, but the remainder really cannot get by without shoes. So if there are 8 horses in your yard, its likely that one will need shoes, unfortunately, its yours.

All horses feet are not the same, and despite what the die-hard barefooters might say. And the fact is, you have a horse that you cannot ride because his feet are so sore. Whats the point of having a horse you cant use?  Im not saying that shoes are the definite answer, they are not without drawbacks, but neither are they the spawn of the devil as some might have you believe. In the real world, some horses do need shoes.
		
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A very pragmatic answer!  

OP... you may aspire to barefoot and my goodness, you have given it a try BUT if it is not for your horse why keep pushing him to something that he is not??  You need to think short term welfare as well as longer term, in my opinion.


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## criso (30 August 2015)

ktj1891 said:



			H I'm going to do a trial keeping him in for a week on soaked hay but not sure if I should feed don't really want to drop the balancers. I could give linseed and healthy herbal chaff? Should I see an improvement in this time?
		
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I think it would be useful for your own peace of mind to know if grass is a factor so keeping him off would let you test that and I would expect some improvement in a week unless your hay is especially rich.  The balancer I would expect to see in the new hoof growth so that would take more time.   However if it is the grass, what  can you realistically do?  It a tricky situation.


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## ktj1891 (1 September 2015)

Gloi said:



			facebook link isn't working 

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Sorry- He is getting a trim tomorrow so I will post up to date images on the thread then!


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## ktj1891 (1 September 2015)

Graeme Burt farrier said:



			I am a barefoot friendly farrier. In my experience what you are going through is a part of the normal balance of barefoot/shod horses. Around 60% of all the horses I deal with are barefoot (my own included) a further 20% are only shod in front, but the remainder really cannot get by without shoes. So if there are 8 horses in your yard, its likely that one will need shoes, unfortunately, its yours.

All horses feet are not the same, and despite what the die-hard barefooters might say. And the fact is, you have a horse that you cannot ride because his feet are so sore. Whats the point of having a horse you cant use?  Im not saying that shoes are the definite answer, they are not without drawbacks, but neither are they the spawn of the devil as some might have you believe. In the real world, some horses do need shoes.
		
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This is what I have been started to think more and more this year. However, when I try and make the point online as you have stated above and that I have him to ride I get made out to be the worst person ever for thinking of shoeing my horse. Just to add he was never lame is shoes I decide to take them off to improve the condition of his feet as they were so deformed from being shod probably since he was 18 months.

If it turns out it is completely the grass or sugars in the hay causing his sensitivity I have no choice but to shoe as I cannot keep him off grass 24/7. My idea being is that I could shoe him in spring through summer and then back off for autumn and winter. I would also only want to but front shoes on.


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## ktj1891 (1 September 2015)

criso said:



			I think it would be useful for your own peace of mind to know if grass is a factor so keeping him off would let you test that and I would expect some improvement in a week unless your hay is especially rich.  The balancer I would expect to see in the new hoof growth so that would take more time.   However if it is the grass, what  can you realistically do?  It a tricky situation.
		
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I have kept him in during the day all last week on my stable yard which is made up of tarmac stones, he was pretty sore on them and since Saturday he has been kept in 24/7. I am feeding him hay and his feed atm, if no improvement next week I will soak hay and feed and again if no improvement after that I will remove feed for a week... if still no improvement I don't know what to do!


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## Meowy Catkin (1 September 2015)

ktj1891 said:



			My idea being is that I could shoe him in spring through summer and then back off for autumn and winter. I would also only want to but front shoes on.
		
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This seems very sensible to me.


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## Goldenstar (1 September 2015)

I think your plan is good .
I hope you hacking and having fun soon .


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## ester (1 September 2015)

Depending on the set up having a horse completely off the grass in order that in can remain barefoot doesn't sit completely right with me tbh. I remember your previous posts and don't think any of the options are bad ones tbh but if he is continually struggling on the yard set up shoes for part of the year might well be the best option (though with a farrier who understands the barefoot concept and won't go removing too much frog etc in that time).

GS I know you do that with one of yours that hunts? When they come off again is he footy for a bit then? and do you work him or is he on hols?


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## Wagtail (1 September 2015)

I was hoping to keep my mare barefoot. However, I am currently in the process of breaking her in and have noticed she is very sore over stones. She doesn't have the best of feet being half TB and she has a crack that has developed up the front of one which the farrier attempted to stem by burning a horizontal hole across the top, but it has continued to split. Therefore, reluctantly, I have decided to put front shoes on her as I don't want anything causing her pain whilst I am breaking her in. Just hope she isn't too frightened by the smoke.


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## criso (1 September 2015)

ktj1891 said:



			I have kept him in during the day all last week on my stable yard which is made up of tarmac stones, he was pretty sore on them and since Saturday he has been kept in 24/7. I am feeding him hay and his feed atm, if no improvement next week I will soak hay and feed and again if no improvement after that I will remove feed for a week... if still no improvement I don't know what to do!
		
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The only other thing you can do is try a different source of hay.  As i said I know some people have found even soaking doesn't fix their hay, tried Timothy haylage and saw an improvement.  That made a bigger difference than feed.  

However that knowledge doesn't necessarily solve your situation as most of us don't have unlimited access to perfect grass and hay, which leaves you trying to make him more comfortable with boots or shoes.


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## ktj1891 (1 September 2015)

criso said:



			The only other thing you can do is try a different source of hay.  As i said I know some people have found even soaking doesn't fix their hay, tried Timothy haylage and saw an improvement.  That made a bigger difference than feed.  

However that knowledge doesn't necessarily solve your situation as most of us don't have unlimited access to perfect grass and hay, which leaves you trying to make him more comfortable with boots or shoes.
		
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I am now using 2 different suppliers of hay. I don't think its going to make a massive difference tbh and I could be searching for ages trying to trial and error different hay which would be very time consuming and expensive. I think I have made my mind up and for now I just need to get him comfortable through winter (he generally does improve) and look to shoe from spring onwards next year. I have also been out competing a lot more this year in ODE and finding he is slipping a lot in his boots which is making things dangerous which is another reason I have considered shoeing for next year.


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## criso (1 September 2015)

Sounds like a plan.  Have to say I wouldn't be confident eventing in boots.  I use them as a temporary measure on one of my tbs who is coming back into work bit only on 2 stony bridlepaths.  Wouldn't feel safe on grass. I don't think they are even allowed in BE.


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## shannonandtay (1 September 2015)

We shoe the fronts in summer when pony is in more work and take off in winter and although I don't know anyone else who does this, it works for us.  I'm on a livery yard so restricted to how I may do things and the type of hay etc than if I had my own place so don't feel we have been able to stay barefoot permanently also pony doesn't like boots so that of course doesn't help.


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## Goldenstar (1 September 2015)

ester said:



			Depending on the set up having a horse completely off the grass in order that in can remain barefoot doesn't sit completely right with me tbh. I remember your previous posts and don't think any of the options are bad ones tbh but if he is continually struggling on the yard set up shoes for part of the year might well be the best option (though with a farrier who understands the barefoot concept and won't go removing too much frog etc in that time).

GS I know you do that with one of yours that hunts? When they come off again is he footy for a bit then? and do you work him or is he on hols?
		
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They stops hunting mid march and their shoes come off and they has a break of about eight weeks then we start them again .
Tats will just go straight back to work he's very very easy his feet grow a slightly funky shape but he's always sound and would never need shoes if he did not hunt long days and sometimes twice a week.
Fatty is more difficult but he gets easier every year but he's comfortable on holiday from the day the shoes come off.
J the TB is problematic he's not blessed in foot department complicated by the fact we have never cracked getting boots to fit him they all twist round .
H the young ID had his shoes off for the first time since he came here  eight weeks ago to let the nail holes grow out instantly he had mega heel first landing and was very easy he's got a big season coming his shoes went back on today so I can get in the work I need ,if I had longer he was going to be very easy but he got great strong digital cushions and great horn and sole quality but his feet are fairly flat but he was sound when the shoes where removed .
Tatts is my BF poster boy but his natural breakover is very very good .
While I am very clear in my mind that horses need shoeing breaks every year I am happy to shoe them when it suits me .


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## Barnacle (1 September 2015)

You stated your motivation for going barefoot in the first place was to have a happy horse. Your horse is not happy barefoot. Shoe him.

I don't know why people are so convinced that a barefoot horse is a happy one in the first place. I know it saves money but honestly, you need to do what is best for your horse, not follow some vague fashionable 'ideal'. Sure there are some benefits to a horse being barefoot and I ride several (8-9 horses) that are all barefoot on a regular basis. My experience is that some would much rather be shod if only their owners weren't totally blind to the pain they suffer regularly. And these are horses with generally good feet that have been unshod their entire lives. It's not "natural" for a horse to be barefoot - not if it's being ridden! Shoes have been around a long, long time and for very good reason!

You can see your horse is in pain and are obviously prepared to do the right thing by him. So please just do! The lengths people will go to to avoid shoeing are remarkable.


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## ester (2 September 2015)

Thanks GS, I always think of it as a good compromise and mention on threads on here that you do it with yours but realised I had never asked you about that point!


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## Goldenstar (2 September 2015)

Wagtail said:



			I was hoping to keep my mare barefoot. However, I am currently in the process of breaking her in and have noticed she is very sore over stones. She doesn't have the best of feet being half TB and she has a crack that has developed up the front of one which the farrier attempted to stem by burning a horizontal hole across the top, but it has continued to split. Therefore, reluctantly, I have decided to put front shoes on her as I don't want anything causing her pain whilst I am breaking her in. Just hope she isn't too frightened by the smoke.
		
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Could she stand beside an experienced one being shod and watch before she's done .
That's what I always do .


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## Goldenstar (2 September 2015)

Barnacle said:



			You stated your motivation for going barefoot in the first place was to have a happy horse. Your horse is not happy barefoot. Shoe him.

I don't know why people are so convinced that a barefoot horse is a happy one in the first place. I know it saves money but honestly, you need to do what is best for your horse, not follow some vague fashionable 'ideal'. Sure there are some benefits to a horse being barefoot and I ride several (8-9 horses) that are all barefoot on a regular basis. My experience is that some would much rather be shod if only their owners weren't totally blind to the pain they suffer regularly. And these are horses with generally good feet that have been unshod their entire lives. It's not "natural" for a horse to be barefoot - not if it's being ridden! Shoes have been around a long, long time and for very good reason!

You can see your horse is in pain and are obviously prepared to do the right thing by him. So please just do! The lengths people will go to to avoid shoeing are remarkable.
		
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I agree with most of this .
Young working age horses being expected to live off grass on soaked hay for no other reason than they are foot sore on uneven stony ground is just silly .
Horse thin and losing muscle because of a restrictive diet to try to stop foot soreness and my friend a vet sees this ,is just wrong .
I do manage my horses access to grass mainly by stabling daily and a track for Fatty but I would never keep a horse without grazing just to keep it bf unless the choice was no grass or PTS , even then I would be seriously wondering if that was ethical .
BF is a tool .
Shoeing breaks help the digital cushions get a decent work out every year .
It allows nail holes to grow down meaning the farrier never has compromise the shoeing to keep the shoes on because  the horn is in good knick .
It allows you to assess the horse without shoes every year .
It does save me money as I do most of the trimming myself now and I am not shoeing for an average five or six months .
I feed them the same BF or shod .
H had a nine/ten  week shoeing break in that time we got rid of all the nail holes except one bit on one hind foot which chipped right back when we removed the shoes but it was just a shallow crescent by the time he was shod so no issue . 
So he goes into his seven yo hunting season with me knowing he's truly sound in his feet and a good whole foot for the farrier to work with .


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## Meowy Catkin (2 September 2015)

As an owner of three unshod horses, I would like to point out that there are owners out there who are not blind to their horse's pain and do not think that having a horse in pain is acceptable. If one of mine was in pain I wouldn't ignore it. I would try boots before shoeing though as I don't use boots at the moment, so it seems logical to try that before going for shoes. 

I know that I'm coming from this from a different angle as one of mine was lame in shoes (and heading for PTS) and is now sound without them. I do resent the implication that anyone who doesn't shoe, does it to save money or to follow a trend and has no thought for the horse's welfare.


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## tallyho! (2 September 2015)

Some horses can go barefoot. Some horses can't. If you've tried everything then well.... don't suffer a nervous breakdown.

Boot or shoe.

Simples.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (2 September 2015)

Faracat said:



			As an owner of three unshod horses, I would like to point out that there are owners out there who are not blind to their horse's pain and do not think that having a horse in pain is acceptable. If one of mine was in pain I wouldn't ignore it. I would try boots before shoeing though as I don't use boots at the moment, so it seems logical to try that before going for shoes. 

I know that I'm coming from this from a different angle as one of mine was lame in shoes (and heading for PTS) and is now sound without them. I do resent the implication that anyone who doesn't shoe, does it to save money or to follow a trend and has no thought for the horse's welfare.
		
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^THIS

Not everyone does it to save money, in fact to change the management and to feed the bespoke minerals will cost about the same as shoeing,  £1.00 a day.
HOWEVER there are people who use the "its natural" excuse to neglect their horses, there is no other way to put it, the horses are not in the best condition and are not managed successfully, but have no shoes, front or back and are not riden in boots when this might assist a transition.


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## MotherOfChickens (2 September 2015)

Faracat said:



			As an owner of three unshod horses, I would like to point out that there are owners out there who are not blind to their horse's pain and do not think that having a horse in pain is acceptable. If one of mine was in pain I wouldn't ignore it. I would try boots before shoeing though as I don't use boots at the moment, so it seems logical to try that before going for shoes. 

I know that I'm coming from this from a different angle as one of mine was lame in shoes (and heading for PTS) and is now sound without them. I do resent the implication that anyone who doesn't shoe, does it to save money or to follow a trend and has no thought for the horse's welfare.
		
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agreed! My old horse would get shoeing breaks every year, my old farrier recommended it but he said most leisure riders wouldn't agree to it, even if their riding consisted of one hack or schooling session a week. Funnily enough, he would also say that if a horse is feeling its feet on stones it wasn't necessarily sore, just being careful so make of that what you may.If I take mine from the field onto a forestry track, I don't expect him to love it so I boot. If it got to the stage whereby  horse couldnt cope with its environment and I couldnt ride, I would shoe.

My three live out (mostly) on grass, 35 acres in the winter, 5 acres (which is rested for 6 months) in the summer plus I have small paddocks at home. I have done the restricted grazing thing for weight issues but I absolutely know that my lot are happier with space, a variety of grasses, company and movement. I have ponies who spend some of their time muzzled but the biggest difference I've introduced is type of grazing and that's not always possible.


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## ycbm (2 September 2015)

Barnacle said:



			It's not "natural" for a horse to be barefoot - not if it's being ridden! 
.
		
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## Exploding Chestnuts (2 September 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Some horses can go barefoot. Some horses can't. If you've tried everything then well.... don't suffer a nervous breakdown.

Boot or shoe.

Simples.
		
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I just do not know why OP has not realised that, and why she is paying a trimmer is beyond me, any good barefoot friendly farrier will tell her whether to shoe or not shoe. I don't like "diagnoses by forum" but it seems to me that this horse should have been shod a long time ago. Or moved to a place where there are different facilities.
Or a change in management to include work on different surfaces, using tarmac to rasp the feet, develop the digital cushion.
The whole idea is to allow the horse to stride out confidently with a heel first landing. 
Many horses can self trim, thus avoiding "footiness" after trimming.
http://www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/


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## tallyho! (2 September 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I just do not know why OP has not realised that, and why she is paying a trimmer is beyond me, any good barefoot friendly farrier will tell her whether to shoe or not shoe. I don't like "diagnoses by forum" but it seems to me that this horse should have been shod a long time ago. Or moved to a place where there are different facilities.
Or a change in management to include work on different surfaces, using tarmac to rasp the feet, develop the digital cushion.
The whole idea is to allow the horse to stride out confidently with a heel first landing. 
Many horses can self trim, thus avoiding "footiness" after trimming.
http://www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/

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Yes I agree, and whilst I have been very evangelical about it in the past, lots of things have shown me that actually, you can only work with what's in front of you and what knowledge you have behind you. Look what luxury we have nowadays though... lots of fantastic boots, trimmers, farriers, shoes, studs, special supplements and feedstuffs at our disposal. When has it ever been this good?

If there is one thing I have learnt from all of this is, if you are shoeing, then those feet need regular breaks to stay as healthy as possible as we have all said! It's written in every farriery manual... and now it has become normal to keep a horse shod 365 days a year. It is quite a detriment.


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## Goldenstar (2 September 2015)

Many horses self trim and many don't .
I don't think rockley can really be used as an example as they have a purpose built tracks set up that thousands and thousands to build it's a high up place so the grasses are probably ideal for horses .
It's the BF ideal not many can achieve a nirvana if you like .
Bit like having hand made shoes from the best farrier in the world .
I agree with  Faracat about many horses needing to be BF because they where lame in shoes .
However many horses which have had soundness issues caused by shoes can return to shoes with an educated owner and a very good farrier.
Many issues are caused by poor farriers and poor management practise .
There's no one way is right with this .
Shoes are no more a failure than using boots is it's about finding what works for your situation .
Personally I don't like boots and avoid using them if at all possible but that's my choice based on my experience doesn't make me better or worse than any one else .


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## Meowy Catkin (2 September 2015)

I'm actually slightly wary of shoeing that particular horse now. Even on a short shoeing cycle she grew a lot of toe and with no shoes her hooves are much better balanced as she keeps the toe short. She does still need trimming though, I've never been able to get any of them to self trim as the more roadwork I do, the faster they seem to grow.


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## Goldenstar (2 September 2015)

Faracat said:



			I'm actually slightly wary of shoeing that particular horse now. Even on a short shoeing cycle she grew a lot of toe and with no shoes her hooves are much better balanced as she keeps the toe short. She does still need trimming though, I've never been able to get any of them to self trim as the more roadwork I do, the faster they seem to grow.
		
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Does she have weak heels ?
Bet she does they are the most diffcult ones IME the toes are always trying to run forward .
J like this he really needs a four week shoeing when his feet grow fast we manage it at five and a break in summer when the feet are growing fastest .
He's not helped by being hopeless with boots .
I had the trimmer come on Saturday to measure and see if he had any ideas but he thinks it's going to be hard to get boots to work .
He's being shod on the 17th


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## ester (2 September 2015)

GS that is my thought about the grass element too. I do think that most horses probably do have the capacity to go bare but for some it is going to be so complicated and teetering on a balance that it becomes unviable. I've also said previously if F was younger and I was competing on grass a lot he would be shod to stud . I also think Rockley does tend to report on the success stories once they get home rather than the ones that struggle once they go home and actually never become properly rock crunching on hard surfaces and do need the support of boots and alike which I think perhaps leads to unrealistic expectations for some. Frank has been better since moving to wilts but certainly to start with I would have put him down as ok but could be better and outside of hunting he wouldn't willingly be cantering along roads or stony tracks and I try and always point that out to people. He does hunt bare but only about once a month so I don't know if he would do twice weekly for instance! But for him the option is not 100% rock crunching out of shoes or lame in so .


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## Meowy Catkin (2 September 2015)

GS, her heels are not quite as good as my other twos' hooves, but they have improved a hell of a lot. They were under-run, now they are almost right.


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## Goldenstar (2 September 2015)

Like J,s we have a bigger problem with back heels / toes I am going to trying leaving him without shoes behind a bit longer to see if we can really sort the issue .
He's a an big mover and I worry about his hind suspensories with those long toes and weak heels .


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## Archie73 (2 September 2015)

I would check you hay is organic and not fertilised with nitrogen compound. Most hays and Haylage bought commercially seem to be. Same with the history of the track horse is on, stays in the soil for years!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (2 September 2015)

Archie73 said:



			I would check you hay is organic and not fertilised with nitrogen compound. Most hays and Haylage bought commercially seem to be. Same with the history of the track horse is on, stays in the soil for years!
		
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I hate to tell you, all grass fertilier has nitrogen in it, grass wont grow if there is no nitrogen.
All air has oxygen and nitrogen in it.


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## ktj1891 (3 September 2015)

Just to update, he still isn't great but he has improved slightly walking over the stones being kept in on the yard with no grass. My plan is to still keep him bare over this winter and shoe in Spring I will then stick to this cycle of shoeing over spring/summer and going bare autumn/winter.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (3 September 2015)

Why?
I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone keeps a horse unshod if it is not happy after two years, and this incudes times where he is so sore he cannot be ridden.
What did you expect when you posted. You were advised to shoe, so you will wait eight months before you do so!


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## zandp (3 September 2015)

ktj1891 said:



			He wears boots hacking but he is even sore bringing in and turning out over stones. Plus my yard area is stoney. 

He is on copra, linseed and equivita, adlib meadow hay and turned out 24/7 on grass track. Although since start of this week he is being kept on the stable yard with soaked hay. Doubt he has ems he's a poor doer ex racer.  Not sure on cushings. What do you mean what grazing is the yard on? It's ex deer farm is all I know.
		
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Sorry, only just got back on. I asked about the grass because that's likely to be the problem.  I have an EMS/Cushings mare who is ok on more natural grass grazing - ok as in she doesn't get footy, but my current yard is ryegrass and clover grazing and she has to be off it (on a track with hay - grass base as I'm on livery and YO won't let me remove the grass !) and she's still footy most of the spring / summer.  It goes in the winter (after the autumn flush) and she's ok then.  I use boots during spring and summer, when she was shod she used to lose her shoes every few weeks and her foot was more often than not ripped off so barefoot and boots work better for us.


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## Boulty (4 September 2015)

First off you have my sympathy.  I'm in the boat of having a rather grass sensitive native who was intermittently lame in shoes and making it his life's mission to try and win a boxing match with the farrier but still not 100% on stones barefoot.  We now think his foot pain was probably causing the behaviour with the farrier (despite several professionals at the time telling me otherwise / that he was just being naughty).  Stone issues aside his general soundness barefoot is vastly superior to his general soundness shod. Yes he does have to cross surfaces sometimes that he's less than 100% happy with (the yard drive for example) but if that's maybe a maximum of 10 minutes per day and he's 100% comfortable the rest of the time and is improving then I'm currently taking the view that it's better than the other options.

Some of the things that have helped with mine were taking him totally off the grass during the day (either stabled or in a abre paddock, adlib haylage provided either way) in Spring and Summer, muzzling when on rich grazing (he actually quite liked his muzzle as it meant he was going out on the grass with his mates!), soaking hay and then eventually switching to meadow haylage, being on a good quality mineral balancer plus mag ox and small amount of salt, feeding no molasses at all ever and playing about with different high fibre, low sugar feeds, lots of inhand walking on smooth roads and grass tracks to start with before building up to ridden work gradually and doing shorter routes more often at first rather than longer ones less often to keep things at a constant level and initially I'd alternate arena work and roadwork to prevent any soreness.  By being very very careful and militant in my management of him (off grass early in a morning, back on late evening every single day no excuses and making sure he was worked at least 5 days a week year round) I managed to keep him mainly comfortable and happy at a yard with just about the least ideal grazing you can imagine (This did involve keeping him in the bare paddock for a few weeks with a friend when there was just too much grass for him to handle when they changed fields).

I have since moved yards and whilst I'm finding I'm coming up against less than ideal surfaces I've also got more margin for error as the grazing is quite poor but spread over a large area so he has to move about a lot.  I may yet decide booting him to walk down the drive and taking them off at the bottom is the answer but at the moment I'm monitoring the situation and giving his feet a chance to adjust.


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## maccachic (4 September 2015)

If the current trimmer cannot explain what is going on with your horse and he is still sore I would find a better trimmer.  My experience is a good trimmer is far superior to anything else you change in your horses lifestyle.

I'm not one for removing horses off grass but am big on balancing the diet and provided suffient fibre when grass cant meet those needs.  If your diet isn't optimum them your horse is never going to have decent feet - try and hide it all you like with shoes.  Mine have had oats and no issues and always on green grass and outside 24/7 I would never again stable a horse either so bad for their entire system.

Most the shoes proponents on here wont post pictures of their horses feet because there are always issues disguised by shoes and well that's your choice but I hate how they bag people who want to be BF for the health of their horses.  Its a long road fixing damaged feet and it pays to take progress pics as they help you see the light at the end of the tunnel or lack thereof in which case its time to reassess everything.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (4 September 2015)

maccachic said:



			If the current trimmer cannot explain what is going on with your horse and he is still sore I would find a better trimmer.  My experience is a good trimmer is far superior to anything else you change in your horses lifestyle.

I'm not one for removing horses off grass but am big on balancing the diet and provided suffient fibre when grass cant meet those needs.  If your diet isn't optimum them your horse is never going to have decent feet - try and hide it all you like with shoes.  Mine have had oats and no issues and always on green grass and outside 24/7 I would never again stable a horse either so bad for their entire system.

Most the shoes proponents on here wont post pictures of their horses feet because there are always issues disguised by shoes and well that's your choice but I hate how they bag people who want to be BF for the health of their horses.  Its a long road fixing damaged feet and it pays to take progress pics as they help you see the light at the end of the tunnel or lack thereof in which case its time to reassess everything.
		
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The horse has been barefoot for two years, and has been so footsore that it can't work in that time. I don't see that as healthy. The OP has not been able to provide management to meet this horse's needs, but seems intent on keeping it struggling.
We often see barefoot posts with no pictures [as in this case], nothing is to be gained by those who have advocated shoes posting photos of their own horse's feet.
I am a barefoot advocate as are several who have contributed to this post, but it is unfair on the horse to have it struggle for two years when a pair of front shoes, and or hind shoes might sort it straight away.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (4 September 2015)

maccachic said:



			If the current trimmer cannot explain what is going on with your horse and he is still sore I would find a better trimmer.  My experience is a good trimmer is far superior to anything else you change in your horses lifestyle.

I'm not one for removing horses off grass but am big on balancing the diet and provided suffient fibre when grass cant meet those needs.  If your diet isn't optimum them your horse is never going to have decent feet - try and hide it all you like with shoes.  Mine have had oats and no issues and always on green grass and outside 24/7 I would never again stable a horse either so bad for their entire system.

Most the shoes proponents on here wont post pictures of their horses feet because there are always issues disguised by shoes and well that's your choice but I hate how they bag people who want to be BF for the health of their horses.  Its a long road fixing damaged feet and it pays to take progress pics as they help you see the light at the end of the tunnel or lack thereof in which case its time to reassess everything.
		
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It is up to the owner to provide the best welfare for their horse, keeping it stabled for a few hours at a time of day when grass is at its most sugary and providing hi fibre forage would seem a better choice.
The minerals can be bespoke, and again this should provide a better diet.
The work can include walking in hand on tarmac to self trim and balance.
The owner can rasp the edges every two weeks.
Micromanagement may help, but if the horse is not coping the owner should do something, and in this case [when it seems to be footsore all the time] there is no reason to avoid shoeing using a good farrier.
Good grass livery is a rarity in the UK so most horses will be stabled in winter with tunout during the day in many, but not all cases.
In this case the owner has not micromanaged the horse, has not provided bespoke minerals [requires forage/soil analysis], she is unable to tell us if her horse lands heel first on smooth tarmac, and the poor thing has to walk over stones every day to and from the field, how that is "good" for the horse is beyond me.
PS there are no trimmers in my local area, I used a good farrier to remove the shoes, and rasp as per a paddock trim.  I bought my own rasp to use every two weeks, and rasped the feet on tarmac. The horse was never off work at any time due to being footsore. I asked my farriers if everything was ok, and they agreed he had perfect feet. He only needed a farrier if he was not looked after properly, and when with me, he was looked after properly.
My ponies were broken unshod, they were fed a good balanced diet and stabled during the day for handling and training.


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## Goldenstar (4 September 2015)

maccachic said:



			If the current trimmer cannot explain what is going on with your horse and he is still sore I would find a better trimmer.  My experience is a good trimmer is far superior to anything else you change in your horses lifestyle.

I'm not one for removing horses off grass but am big on balancing the diet and provided suffient fibre when grass cant meet those needs.  If your diet isn't optimum them your horse is never going to have decent feet - try and hide it all you like with shoes.  Mine have had oats and no issues and always on green grass and outside 24/7 I would never again stable a horse either so bad for their entire system.

Most the shoes proponents on here wont post pictures of their horses feet because there are always issues disguised by shoes and well that's your choice but I hate how they bag people who want to be BF for the health of their horses.  Its a long road fixing damaged feet and it pays to take progress pics as they help you see the light at the end of the tunnel or lack thereof in which case its time to reassess everything.
		
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Why on earth would or should I post pictures of my horses feet?
I don't have any problems I can't manage myself .


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## ester (4 September 2015)

I actually think that many of the shoe proponents in this instance currently keep their horses barefoot, comfortable and working. I'm certainly very happy to put up pics of such feet . 

It has been said on here before, most (if not all) horses have the capacity to be barefoot, some require more perfect conditions than others and sometimes those conditions will be such that the owner cannot provide them (this is not a slight on the owner more that we live within a UK livery yard system). If this the case then compromising welfare long term is not ok so horse either has to be booted when coming across surfaces it cannot manage or shod.

Diet balancing is a dark art- it isn't really ascertained what is 'perfect' so it isn't like there is a all encompassing formula that will be guaranteed to work for all horses. And most can have oats without issues, my own included but they are perhaps the not quite so sensitive ones that cope well with grass too. I also imagine NZ grass might be a bit different to our own given how different I have found wiltshire grass from somerset grass.


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## Goldenstar (4 September 2015)

The farm two miles from here has completely different grass because it just a bit higher up .


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## tallyho! (4 September 2015)

Not sure what you all feel about this idea but I will share it with you anyway...

I sometimes feel that grass management and the dark arts ( love that ester!) ca n only get you so far. The major component to sound hooves is getting enough work. 

Of course, how does one do that when a horse is not sound enough to do the footfalls required? Well, boots and pads help to build a weak foot. All of it. Not just sole or frog but everything inside. First everything in there has to be properly balanced with a good trim. Or else it won't strengthen. This may take three months or six months. Not that long. You see the hoof's ability to adapt and marvel at it.

Once the inner structures are beefed up and strong, some acclimatisation to terrain will be possible without boots. Tarmac is just dream stuff! Perfect for hooves. Thank goodness for cars or we wouldn't have it. Then, you get going, you're motoring on the stuff without any issues. You marvel again at how he hooves have adapted.

Stones however remain a challenge. You see the horses footfall change, you think you need to boot again. So the hooves never adapt. 

A lot of people stop here. 

Instead of thinking, the hooves need to adapt, we think they need protecting again. What actually needs to be done is to get the horse to spend more time on a rough surface. Gravel first maybe. Then bigger stones. This means a whole change in where you turn out or change your turnout to include stony areas. How many yards have this? Not many. So this is where many have to go back to shoes. 

This is why many farriers say horses need shoes... It's because the country is not set up to succeed with barefoot.


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## paddy555 (4 September 2015)

tallyho! said:



			A lot of people stop here. 

Instead of thinking, the hooves need to adapt, we think they need protecting again. What actually needs to be done is to get the horse to spend more time on a rough surface. Gravel first maybe. Then bigger stones. This means a whole change in where you turn out or change your turnout to include stony areas. How many yards have this? Not many. So this is where many have to go back to shoes. 


This is why many farriers say horses need shoes... It's because the country is not set up to succeed with barefoot.
		
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fortunately they do stop here as they have the sense to realise making a horse sore and uncomfortable to pursue some valhalla barefoot dream is a welfare issue. 

If a horse is footy then leaving him on a surface he cannot cope with is not going to toughen up the feet it is simply going to make him more sore. That is the reality of it. 

The comments made by the farrier on the earlier page are correct. . Some horse's just cannot make it barefoot, full stop, end of message. 

Diet and supplements can only go so far. Ultimately for this poster I think that the problem lies in the actual feet themselves and they are unlikely to ever make it, certainly with the management the poster can give the horse. Maybe in a Rockley situation they would have more chance but in the real world that liveries live in it isn't always possible. 

Maccachic, barefoot isn't helping the health of this horse. If it has sore feet there will be knock on effects in the rest of it's body. It also can't be helping the mental health of the horse if is it footsore. Issues are disguised by shoes, no one would dispute that. However it is sometimes better to weigh up the issues they will disguise against the current welfare of the horse. 

It is a long road to fixing damaged feet but this poster is 2 years down the road and if she hasn't got there by now then I think success is unlikely. 

Before you diss me for supporting shoeing the horse then I have had barefoot horses for the best part of  40 years and all my horses are barefoot as I can make it work for them. If I was in the poster's position however then shoes would have to be tried.


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## paddy555 (4 September 2015)

I forgot to add, why can't this horse have shoes now rather than waiting. He could have a good winter's riding and comfort  then rather than worrying about either boots or periods with uncomfortable feet.


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## tallyho! (4 September 2015)

Paddy555, I'm in total agreement.. If you're as my posts I am the one who said some horses cannot go barefoot. 

I'm not some sick idiot who actually puts their horses on stones just to let them adapt. I'm just saying that that is how the hooves adapt. No one has that facility or is willing to do that. That's what shoes are for!

I wish people would not paraphrase me and actually read what I write. At least I give people the time to read what they have written.


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## Goldenstar (4 September 2015)

I had J Bf for around eighteen months when I first bought him It took along time for him to be comfortable but that does not mean we left him uncomfortable we worked according within his tolerance .
By the end he was walking happily across stony car parks however I always had to manage the amount he did on the most challenging surfaces .
What promted me into reshoeing him was the fact he was not happy XC ,shoeing immediatly made him more confident and studs improved his confidence even more .
Horses that have general sole pain are not in the same situation as a horse who stand on a big stone and pick their foot back up quickly.
There's a big diffence between the two .
Testing with hoof testers is I feel a useful way to gauge where you are at .
Not all BF people are working lame uncomfortable horses and not all shod horses are having an unsoundness masked by shoes .
Managing horses is about managing lots of things we don't have the luxury of managing one issue we have to manage the whole horse and yes they have to do a job for lots of us as well , I don't keep horses to fuss on with their feet all the time I buy them to do job and if that job means they have shoes on part of the time I am very comfortable with the ethics of that .
Two years is long enough for a horse to be footsore .


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## Archie73 (4 September 2015)

Thank you. I Will leave you to investigate further on nitrogen compound. My horse goes orange and footy when fed anything that is not organic, I speak from experience and was merely trying to help the original poster who is clearly at a loss as was I until I found this out. I guess you have different experiences and knowledge to me &#128516;


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## tallyho! (4 September 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I had J Bf for around eighteen months when I first bought him It took along time for him to be comfortable but that does not mean we left him uncomfortable we worked according within his tolerance .
By the end he was walking happily across stony car parks however I always had to manage the amount he did on the most challenging surfaces .
What promted me into reshoeing him was the fact he was not happy XC ,shoeing immediatly made him more confident and studs improved his confidence even more .
Horses that have general sole pain are not in the same situation as a horse who stand on a big stone and pick their foot back up quickly.
There's a big diffence between the two .
Testing with hoof testers is I feel a useful way to gauge where you are at .
Not all BF people are working lame uncomfortable horses and not all shod horses are having an unsoundness masked by shoes .
Managing horses is about managing lots of things we don't have the luxury of managing one issue we have to manage the whole horse and yes they have to do a job for lots of us as well , I don't keep horses to fuss on with their feet all the time I buy them to do job and if that job means they have shoes on part of the time I am very comfortable with the ethics of that .
Two years is long enough for a horse to be footsore .
		
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Very sensible post. I agree 2 years is far too long to be messing about. You should have a fair idea by a year or 18mo.


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## Archie73 (4 September 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I hate to tell you, all grass fertilier has nitrogen in it, grass wont grow if there is no nitrogen.
All air has oxygen and nitrogen in it.[/Thank you. I Will leave you to investigate further on nitrogen compound. My horse goes orange and footy when fed anything that is not organic, I speak from experience and was merely trying to help the original poster who is clearly at a loss as was I until I found this out. I guess you have different experiences and knowledge to me &#128516;QUOTE]
		
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## ktj1891 (4 September 2015)

Just to clarify as it seems to be misunderstood. My lad has been barefoot on his hinds since 2013 since taking advise on here from when I posted about him toe dragging, it was pointed out he has horrendous feet. So front April 2013 to September 2013 he was bare behind and coped pretty well I did buy him some boots to go across really stoney ground but we continued ridden work and competing. His feet improved from the outside dramatically. In September 2013 I had his fronts removed as he was having an operation on his sinuses so wasn't going to be in work for a little while so I thought it would be a good opportunity to give his fronts a break. From that point onwards I decided to keep him bare to see if I could keep him that way as well as the added benefits of his deformed feet improving. Visually looking at his feet they have improved a lot from being in shoes albeit his hinds have digressed a bit.

The amount of money, time, research and effort I have put into trying to get him comfortable barefoot motivated me for this long as well as seeking advice online you always get told different things so its hard to make a decision that I feel is right for us both. Just to clarify however, he has not been footsore 100% of the time in all situations. He is sore over stoney ground that he is faced with on bringing in and turning out. He is still ridden 6 days a week on a surface, grass, tarmac and booted for hacking and he competes.

I do realise its just getting silly now and I am fed up of pushing it anymore when I know he's just not going to improve. The reason why I want to leave him bare over the winter is to then start the cycle or shoeing through spring/summer and autumn/winter bare to give his feet a break. his feet dramatically improve going through winter and he is no where near as sore as he is through the summer months although it would never be said he is rock-crunching over stones but I am largely pleased with his way of going. 

In regards to previous questions above last summer he stayed in all summer during the day and was walked out in hand or long lined. He didn't improve from staying it but the walk on tarmac helped with self-rasping his feet.


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## ktj1891 (4 September 2015)

PS I will post photos of his feet I am hoping he will be trimmed today.


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## ester (4 September 2015)

Orange!?!?

That still depends on the type of grass though I think. At my parents' place in somerset - on clay, old grass ley, unfertilised in at least 15 prob 20-30 years either with organic or inorganic fertiliser, although obviously with some clover etc that will fix nitrogen. Masses of frickin grass!

On yard in wiltshire, on chalk, mixed old ley, fertilised annually with with chemical fertiliser a hell of a lot less grass and grass growth and a lot of weeds and other growth (which I am quite happy to have most of for the mixed grazing). 

We have better feet on the latter though the horse is also getting more work and is worked on more challenging surfaces regularly. 

GS very right- I would worry if F didn't react to a big stone on a solid surface or pay attention when crossing the hardcore to the school but you would never get a reaction with hoof testers (the vet has tried!)


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## Archie73 (4 September 2015)

ester said:



			Orange!?!?

That still depends on the type of grass though I think. At my parents' place in somerset - on clay, old grass ley, unfertilised in at least 15 prob 20-30 years either with organic or inorganic fertiliser, although obviously with some clover etc that will fix nitrogen. Masses of frickin grass!

On yard in wiltshire, on chalk, mixed old ley, fertilised annually with with chemical fertiliser a hell of a lot less grass and grass growth and a lot of weeds and other growth (which I am quite happy to have most of for the mixed grazing). 

We have better feet on the latter though the horse is also getting more work and is worked on more challenging surfaces regularly. 

GS very right- I would worry if F didn't react to a big stone on a solid surface or pay attention when crossing the hardcore to the school but you would never get a reaction with hoof testers (the vet has tried!)
		
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Yes I am lucky enough to to have a deep chestnut horse when healthy and as soon as he eats anything with NPK on it (grass 4 different yards and hay)he goes footy and grows a dead looking orange tinged coat. 

Just trust me on this one, even the non barefoot vets and 3 farriers who know my horse now actually conversate with me about Archie's sensitivity. Not to mention my trimmer and all the people who have seen him change whilst on spring grazing from NPK hay to notmal and come right and have a color change in a matter of weeks. Nothing to do with the grass im afraid only what's put on it in his case. 

I have had him on chalk and clay grazing with no issues....

I hope the op can cancel this out rather then me justifying what I absilutley know to be accurate in out personal case. 

Different horses for different courses I think.


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## tallyho! (4 September 2015)

so interesting...
http://www.holistichorsekeeping.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1315


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## Archie73 (5 September 2015)

tallyho! said:



			so interesting...
http://www.holistichorsekeeping.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1315

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Fantastic article. Thanks for taking the time to post it. I have never seen so much of that information and explanation in one article before. Things must be moving fast towards understand feeding in this enviroment we provide now.  To those who don't know the the K in NPK compound fertiliser is Potassium.....


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## Exploding Chestnuts (5 September 2015)

I am not sure that has clarified anything really, except that under certain conditions [and they are numerous], certain horses [some are very sensitive, some are not], can have metabolic issues.
The uptake of K into forages will vary with seasonality and with the forage species. It is too simplistic to say, for example, don't use K in fertiliser.
In practice, not many horse grazed fields get any fertiliser, but nearly all cow pasture fields do.


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## tallyho! (5 September 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I am not sure that has clarified anything really, except that under certain conditions [and they are numerous], certain horses [some are very sensitive, some are not], can have metabolic issues.
The uptake of K into forages will vary with seasonality and with the forage species. It is too simplistic to say, for example, don't use K in fertiliser.
In practice, not many horse grazed fields get any fertiliser, but nearly all cow pasture fields do.
		
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I think it highlighted that the increased K inhibited metabolism of other essential minerals within the horse. This means quite a lot to me now as I always wondered about our pasture... being a beef farm the farmer fertilises hugely and all his silage is heavily fertilised. His cows do suffer from staggers sometimes...

You are right Bonkers2, some of the horses were quite dull in the winter ground. They are in unfertilised paddocks now and so are very shiny and blooming. 

Food for thought for me at least Archie73. I always knew something was related to fertiliser but never knew where to start looking.


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## FfionWinnie (5 September 2015)

My horse is on hardcore 24/7, never eats grass and is never stabled. She only eats hay and a has a BF diet. This is for (life saving) health reasons. 

I had her shoes off when I bought her in December and her feet were excellent immediately. 

She is still careful on very stony ground. Not sore, careful, which I think is normal/how she should be. 

She's doing 70-100km a week barefoot on tarmac and rough tracks. 

I did wonder/worry about this because where I go for lessons the carpark is stony and she will occasionally take a short step if she stands on a sharp stone. Last day I was there a girl was walking her horse off and called out to her mother (who is a vet) that she was taking it on the tarmac as the stones were hurting her feet. She's shod!  So I decided mine isn't doing too badly at all. 

You need to look at the big picture with any horse. 

If I was on livery things would be different (horse might be dead for a start!) but as I'm at home I can keep my horse in optimum conditions.


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## Pebble101 (5 September 2015)

My horse was retired 5 years ago and went barefoot but was never happy on our yard.  It's concrete but some of the pea shingle gets kicked onto it and he couldn't cope with that although he was fine on a surface or in the field.  I have recently had X-Rays done of his feet due to a recent bout of laminitis (he has Cushings and is Insulin Resistant) which showed he had very thin soles.  As I am able to ride him again in walk I had shoes put back on him with pads and it has changed him completely.  Sometimes I think you have to accept that your horse is not happy barefoot.

Edited to add I did try boots but due to the size of his feet I am very limited in choice.  The ones I used seemed to rub him at the front of his pastern.


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## Archie73 (5 September 2015)

Interesting statement....not many horse grazed fields get any fertiliser, but nearly all cow pasture fields do.....

In the kent Surrey borders where I am I know of many yards that fertilise horse fields that used to be cow pasture. 

Nearly all hay and haylage produced by local producers is NPK fertilised. 

Once your add just 3 minerals  as you do with NPK its out of balance which if you think of the number of macro and micro minerals there are to provide the correct diet makes perfect sense to me.


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## Pebble101 (5 September 2015)

Archie73 said:



			Interesting statement....not many horse grazed fields get any fertiliser, but nearly all cow pasture fields do.....

In the kent Surrey borders where I am I know of many yards that fertilise horse fields that used to be cow pasture. 

Nearly all hay and haylage produced by local producers is NPK fertilised. 

Once your add just 3 minerals  as you do with NPK its out of balance which if you think of the number of macro and micro minerals there are to provide the correct diet makes perfect sense to me.
		
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You must me so close to me, do you mind letting me know where you get your organic hay from please.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (5 September 2015)

Archie73 said:



			Interesting statement....not many horse grazed fields get any fertiliser, but nearly all cow pasture fields do.....

In the kent Surrey borders where I am I know of many yards that fertilise horse fields that used to be cow pasture. 

Nearly all hay and haylage produced by local producers is NPK fertilised. 

Once your add just 3 minerals  as you do with NPK its out of balance which if you think of the number of macro and micro minerals there are to provide the correct diet makes perfect sense to me.
		
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Ah yes, but that is too simplistic: the uptake of minerals throught the root hairs is in solution, and that solution will have all three NPK and the other minerals, so the roots act as selective filters, they may or may not alter the mineral balance of the plant
However if you continually fertilise a field, it is the grasses which respond best to fertiliser which will proliferate, rygrasses being the most responsive.
Dairy farmers who want to use clover to fix nitrgogen [as some organic farmers do], will find that if they put a lot of nitrogen fertiliser on a field this will reduce the clovers.

To me one of the most important things when I look at a field for grazing is not the fertiliser but the mix of grass species and herb species.
An old meadow type pasture field will always be better for horses than ryegrass leys.
All hay and silage has to be fertilsed to yield a decent crop of forage, there would not be enough forage produced without the use of fertiliser, and that is nearly always NKP in some ratio to maximise yield economically.


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## Archie73 (5 September 2015)

Pebble101 said:



			You must me so close to me, do you mind letting me know where you get your organic hay from please.
		
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Will pm you


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## Archie73 (5 September 2015)

Can't pm on phone but church farm services and fairchilds both supply organic hay but specify for fairchilds.


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## tallyho! (5 September 2015)

Probably very specific to my mare.. and our particular grazing...

Introduced feed again for autumn and back on daily TEN balancer. Three days in... usual trot on the driveway is exceptionally difficult. How bizarre!


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## ktj1891 (8 September 2015)

Sorry for the lateness in reply. Below most recent photos of his feet.

RF











LF











RH











LH


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## Meowy Catkin (8 September 2015)

Well they don't look how I expected, having been bare for two years, which would give you plenty of time to grow out the whole hoof capsules approx three times. You've got under-run heels and long toes, plus bullnosed hinds.

If you video his movement and then watch it in slo-mo, how does he land?


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## ester (8 September 2015)

There seems to be a lot of high rasping going on in those pics? and poss bar/frog trimming?

You can see on the sole pic of his RH the ridge of sole around the apex of his frog - he appears to have pancake flat feet and presumably is trying to put out some support/protection. 

I'd be interested to know what the trimmer has said/advised tbh. Given the bull nosed hinds after this amount of time have you had him tested for cushings etc?


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## paddy555 (8 September 2015)

ester said:



			There seems to be a lot of high rasping going on in those pics?
		
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yes but it has made them look very pretty.


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## missyclare (8 September 2015)

I can't save this picture, draw lines on it and send it back to you. Pictures are worth a 1000 words.
The trim is inefficient to transition this foot. The wheels have been spinning for 2 years. There is too much pathology on the hoof to say otherwise. This horse needs a good balanced trim, with the homework in place to promote it, like thrush care, Promenade Walks on asphalt, minerals and  most importantly, staying on top of the trim that is balanced, torque-free and promoted. 
I'll try to help you see a few things....

Rf...Heels are long, unbalanced and pulled way forward of the back of the frog. The horse is walking on the back of the heel platforms smushing forward with every step. This impact also has a separate force that smashes back into the heel bulbs, as the bulbs sag down and end up replacing the heels (which they're not meant to) and creates the pointy heel bulbs. The heel bulbs should be two round balls tightly connected with a solid/straight back of the hoof. The back of the hoof is not supported, not developed or capable of a heel first landing, cause the heels are not where they are supposed to be to do their job.

LF...lateral shot. Look at the shape of the coronary band. As you follow back from the front wall profile, you see two small arches in its shape. Look at the run of the hoof wall below it, waved horizontally. The front wave is a jammed up toe pillar from too much length. The back wave is caused by a long/forward jamming heel. I like even less what's going on between them (breakout point for heel loss) This is going on in the RF as well, but more apparent here. Look at the LF solar, the groove on each side of the frog, one is steep and straight down, the other splatted outwards. That steep groove represents a jam straight down into the corium from the high side when it impacts. The imbalanced heels have dictated the impact coming forward on the high inside of the hoof. The high inside has dominated, what energy is left over, is splatted to the other side of the hoof as an afterthought. The inside remains dominant all the way to breakover, where it breaks over harder than the splatted side. The inside toe quarter can't take it, chips out and horse self trims to try and lower that side to find comfort. He's only a third of the way to comfort on the matter.

RH..now we're getting into some serious balancing trouble. The negative palmer angle created here may have been soreness in the fronts in the past and the horse standing under to compensate. The false sole has not been recognized vs. the live sole, so live sole not followed and voila....negative palmer angle. Look at the solar side of the RH. Layers of depth translating into a tall toe not recognized. The round lump at the bottom is still not live sole. That's a bar necklace, which is excess bar...not down to sole yet. Gives you an idea of how much this toe length has gotten away from the trimmer. This one is really hard on the ddfts. The medial/lateral imbalance is also apparent on the hinds as well. 
My best advice is take a deep breath and find a good trimmer and start over again. One who can recognize and deal with these things.  I know from your care and concern that you are a good candidate to try again. Most of your homework is in place already. But you've got to get a good balancing trim to free up pathology and move to work that trim to develop. Without that, you are just promoting pathology. Make sense?
These feet give me no indication of any metabolic problem going on at this time whatsoever....its the trim...the lack of balance and that will definitely make him sore into soft tissue all the way up his body. Once the development starts to happen, the horse will think he's got rock crushing feet long before he actually does. (bout 3 months for these hooves) You can go one way or the other. Get a good trimmer, stay on top of it and carry on and you'll get somewhere this time. I'm sure of it. Hope this helps.....


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## ycbm (8 September 2015)

I think it is possible to focus far too heavily on trim, (and possibly dangerous to prescribe a trim from a set of flat photos and no personal knowledge of the horse)  which in my experience is below diet and work in importance in sound barefoot horses. If this horse has been barefoot two years and in regular work (I haven't read the whole thread in detail), then I would be quite surprised, given the flat feet  and bull nosed hinds, if it does not have underlying metabolic issues.


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## ktj1891 (8 September 2015)

I haven't had him tested for cushings. He is a 10 year old ex racer. I don't know what other metabolic issues he could have? I have used a couple different trimmers my first was brilliant but she couldn't keep coming to me as lived far away. I then used a trimmer she recommended to me and now I use a trimmer situated at my yard. I am open to suggestions if anyone wants to private message me.


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## ycbm (8 September 2015)

ktj1891 said:



			I haven't had him tested for cushings. He is a 10 year old ex racer. I don't know what other metabolic issues he could have? I have used a couple different trimmers my first was brilliant but she couldn't keep coming to me as lived far away. I then used a trimmer she recommended to me and now I use a trimmer situated at my yard. I am open to suggestions if anyone wants to private message me.
		
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He could have Cushings, ems, low level epsm, leaky gut syndrome, wheat intolerance, grass intolerance, alfalfa intolerance, carbohydrate intolerance ...

But if he's been in work and barefoot two years, then his feet are unexpectedly flat and bull nosed and there is something more than a trim problem going on, I think.

I assume you have him on a 'barefoot' mineral supplement, and if so I would definitely test for Cushings and then if that shows nothing, and you are determined to keep him barefoot start exclusion testing his diet, starting with radically restricting grass.


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## ester (8 September 2015)

paddy555 said:



			yes but it has made them look very pretty.
		
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not pretty to me!

OP I know he is a TB and not old but those feet are not normal after 2 years especially as I know you have been feeding good spec minerals (forageplus and others iirc). I really would get him tested for cushings as a start. 
I'd agree that it is probably more than just a trim issue but I don't think the trimming is good either- I don't know anyone except a farrier that would be rasping hoof wall that high. Where did they do their training (pm if prefer).


Contrastingly to missyclare the bullnosed feet and flatness are shouting metabolic issue to me. Has he ever had hoof xrays? They are often associated with reverse rotation of the pedal bone which can indicate that the lamellar connection isn't 100%. I know it was one of cptrayes pet theories although it didn't actually ring true with my lad - bull nosed fronts, negative palmar angle but no metabolic issue behind that.

I'm actually not sure about shoeing him now looking at those feet, because long term those angles may not improve in shoes and he will get other injuries/issues if that is the case.

If you can't get the right help to you could you afford to send him to rockley? Where horses seem to resolve their own pathologies without any trimming these days so I don't actually agree with missyclare that this is trim generated and that sorting the trim will sort the issue.


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## ktj1891 (8 September 2015)

ycbm said:



			He could have Cushings, ems, low level epsm, leaky gut syndrome, wheat intolerance, grass intolerance, alfalfa intolerance, carbohydrate intolerance ...

But if he's been in work and barefoot two years, then his feet are unexpectedly flat and bull nosed and there is something more than a trim problem going on, I think.

I assume you have him on a 'barefoot' mineral supplement, and if so I would definitely test for Cushings and then if that shows nothing, and you are determined to keep him barefoot start exclusion testing his diet, starting with radically restricting grass.
		
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He is currently in copra and linseed with equivita balancer with vit e and mycosorb. He's on extra mag ox and having a course of aloe Vera. 

Since the week before last he has been in on my stoney yard area during the day and out on grass track with hay at night. Last week he was in 24/7 on hay and this week he is in on soaked hay. Not any difference so far so I am going to look to turn back out next week over night in during the day until he is gradually back out full time again on his track.


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## ycbm (8 September 2015)

Post deleted after checking balance contents.


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## ktj1891 (8 September 2015)

I don't know off the cuff but pretty sure it's not got iron in it.


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## maccachic (9 September 2015)

I struggled with a less than adequate trimmer - minimal interference type found a trimmer who knew how to deal with issues (also TB ex racer who evented  for a number of years) then sat in a paddock for a number more 4 ish feet did not improve until trim put in place to encourage remediation of underlying issues.  Took between 1-2 years for feet to develop correctly.

Was on a well balanced diet the whole way through grazed 24/7 with plenty of road work.

people on here seem so focused on diet and not touching much of the feet - sometimes its not always the answer in my experience and I've a few transition now under the same trimmer.


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## ycbm (9 September 2015)

maccachic said:



			I struggled with a less than adequate trimmer - minimal interference type found a trimmer who knew how to deal with issues (also TB ex racer who evented  for a number of years) then sat in a paddock for a number more 4 ish feet did not improve until trim put in place to encourage remediation of underlying issues.  Took between 1-2 years for feet to develop correctly.

Was on a well balanced diet the whole way through grazed 24/7 with plenty of road work.

people on here seem so focused on diet and not touching much of the feet - sometimes its not always the answer in my experience and I've a few transition now under the same trimmer.
		
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That's because we have a marvelous blog done by a yard which rehabs lame horses which shows time after time after time that if you fix the diet and work the horse appropriately, the horse knows how to balance its own feet, get rid of false sole, bring back the toe and every other intervention that trimmers from other countries tell people to do.

Maybe your horse just needed two years? It's not that uncommon for an off the track racer. There are so many variables that could have changed along with your trim change, including your own confidence to work the horse appropriately, the weather, and a zillion other things. We'd have to have been there to be convinced that the trim was the crucial factor in your one horse's improvement (unless of course your previous trimmer was actively doing something thing wrong). For your own one horse, I've done a dozen of my own, four lame ones, and seen the same number with close friends. Just like what must now be two hundred or more Rockley horses, whose progress is all recorded online, diet and work  was the answer every time.


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## ester (9 September 2015)

Yes, that blog is pretty influential and obviously not all horses are on such surfaces so that might need some trimming help along the way and from the ones I know most ex rockley horses are now trimmed. But- given that they used to trim they do report now that horses are more comfortable if untrimmed and allowed to shed excess structures when they don't need them and that allowing the excess structures to remain do not cause further hoof growth to be compromised.


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## ycbm (9 September 2015)

ester said:



			Yes, that blog is pretty influential and obviously not all horses are on such surfaces so that might need some trimming help along the way and from the ones I know most ex rockley horses are now trimmed. But- given that they used to trim they do report now that horses are more comfortable if untrimmed and allowed to shed excess structures when they don't need them and that allowing the excess structures to remain do not cause further hoof growth to be compromised.
		
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Yes, plenty of horses need trimming.   I'd like to make it clear that I'm not advocating no trimming, I'm just explaining why on this forum we are so keen on diet and work. And why I in particular trend to bridle when an overseas trimmer comes onto threads and starts telling the owner how to trim,  and that the trim will solve all the problems, having seen only a few flat photos. Last week comments on a trim being good were made by what sounded like a pro trimmer when all that had been published were xrays. It would be unethical if a paid trimmer in this country made such comments about another trimmer's work, and I think it's unethical for any paid trimmer to make such comments. Sorry for the rant


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## ester (9 September 2015)

I was agreeing with you why we are keen on diet and work as I thought the same!


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## criso (9 September 2015)

ester said:



			Yes, that blog is pretty influential and obviously not all horses are on such surfaces so that might need some trimming help along the way and from the ones I know most ex rockley horses are now trimmed.
		
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Some are with no problem, some have been trimmed with devastating results, some drag trimmers halfway across the country to find one that will trim their horse sympathetically, some don't trim even though a conservative trim would do no harm because they are scared of the consequences and most are constantly asking if anyone knows of a 'good' trimmer.  It's not a straightforward or easy subject.

I now have someone after two disastrous people who thought the best way to get a pretty hoof was to trim it that way but it took a while.  Where a good person will help is that they should be going through all the diet options, talking about how your horse is moving, raising red flags about the bull nosed hinds.  

I have 2 ex racers, one an ex rockley horse, one not but has had other issues.

When the non Rockley one was off work earlier this year, his feet didn't look unlike the pictures posted.  Not so much the bullnosed (though a tiny bit that I thought I could see) but  the fronts did go flat and the heels were underrun and coming forward.  Started in hand walking and I got a new angle of growth, started ridden work and have an even more acute angle.  It will look completely different when it gets to the floor.  

Re the timescale.  My Rockley horse was there almost 5 months and I think of that set up as fast tracking the improvement so longer if he was at home.  I then needed a few more to get him comfortable over all surfaces.  He would never be a horse that would happily gallop over big stones, too much damage was done at too young an age but he would move briskly and happily which was more that he ever managed in shoes.

I always think in new feet, so hope to see a improvement in the first  wholenew hoof capsule but it's the second to gets me to where I need to be


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## ester (9 September 2015)

It's interesting what you say about the second hoof capsule . 

I should perhaps have said the ones I know of are lightly trimmed but yes some have struggled to find someone to do the right balance and have had a few chats with my trimmer about it in the past and what is/isn't feasible when they not on that sort of track in normal life. I do know with my lad that more mileage = more growth so not trimming at all doesn't really work for him but the trimming that happens at all is literally just taking the toes back- he would naturally have a tendency towards forwards slip.


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## ycbm (9 September 2015)

I have found exactly the same with work Criso. I bought two four year olds last year and people who don't understand barefoot would have said that both needed shoes because they were uncomfortable on stones. In fact what they needed was work, and once broken and ridden regularly they both developed rock stomping feet (one much sooner than the other, who is metabolically challenged with epsm)  which also grew much, much bigger. If they had been shod, I doubt that development which made them bigger from the coronet down, and much better suited to their bodies, could have happened.

As for trim, one has been trimmed  twice in eighteen months, the other twice in fifteen months. I took the square cornered toes off one a month ago to make them look more conventional, and he promptly put them back again so I won't be bothering with that again    Trim was of almost no importance in improving the feet of these two horses.


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## ktj1891 (9 September 2015)

Well I have decided to get him tested for cushings so he is having that done on Tuesday. If that comes back negative I have still have no idea what to do. There are so many variables and whilst it's all time and no and consuming and a lot of stress I would continue. But for me at the end of the day he's still so uncomfortable over stones and it's not fair on him so I am still looking to shoe in front. Life is too short and I want him comfortable and to have fun with him.


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## ycbm (9 September 2015)

ktj1891 said:



			Well I have decided to get him tested for cushings so he is having that done on Tuesday. If that comes back negative I have still have no idea what to do. There are so many variables and whilst it's all time and no and consuming and a lot of stress I would continue. But for me at the end of the day he's still so uncomfortable over stones and it's not fair on him so I am still looking to shoe in front. Life is too short and I want him comfortable and to have fun with him.
		
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I think you are making the right decision for you both. Some horses are just too darned difficult, and you have already tried two years. Have fun with him when he's moving happily again


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