# RIP Kauto Star



## Chloe..x (30 June 2015)

Racing post just tweeted he's been put to sleep following a complex fracture in his pelvis following a fall.

Completely shocked. RIP to one of the best race horses I've ever witnessed in the flesh. Run free Kauto x


----------



## Merrymoles (30 June 2015)

Oh what a shame!


----------



## Blurr (30 June 2015)

So sad.  Rest in Peace, Kauto Star.


----------



## Sukistokes2 (30 June 2015)

Dear Lord, so sad, what a shame, condolences to all of his connections, they must be devastated!


----------



## Spilletta (30 June 2015)

Very sad news. 

From Racing Post website:

Kauto Star put down after fall in paddock

LEGENDARY chaser Kauto Star has been put down after sustaining a complex fracture to the left side of his pelvis as the result of a fall.

The Clive Smith-owned superstar was treated for his injuries at the Valley Equine Hospital in Upper Lambourn but was put down at 3pm on Monday, in the presence of Smith and veterinary assistant Hattie Lawrence.

Smith reported that the horse "did not suffer."

The 15-year-old won 23 of his 41 races, including winning the King George five times and Cheltenham Gold Cup twice.


----------



## Mariposa (30 June 2015)

What awful news. I'm so sorry for all his connections, such a sad loss


----------



## Chloe..x (30 June 2015)

So sad how its all ended for a horse that owed absolutely nothing to his owner.


----------



## Lanky Loll (30 June 2015)

Awful news but sadly that is horses; despite receiving the best of care sometimes the worst of accidents happen at a time when they are not in work and are for a few hours left to their own devices in a field.
Very sad loss for all involved.


----------



## Tobiano (30 June 2015)

What a shame.  Poor boy.  Sounds like one of those unavoidable accidents.  Run free, Kauto Star x x


----------



## Carrots&Mints (30 June 2015)

Run free big lad!!!! I am well and truly gutted. I can remember when it was his 5th King George and I went to the bookies they said no chance is Kauto going to win and gave me better odds - next day went in with the biggest grin on my face and £125 better off! What a superstar he was!! I am really gutted not to have ever seen him in real life! That was on my bucket list!!!

I even have a massive canvas of him in my living room! Massive fan lol!!! 

RIP Kauto you will be missed tremendously


----------



## muddygreymare (30 June 2015)

Bless him  It makes you realise how even with the best care, accidents happen to anyone. RIP Kauto Star


----------



## Orangehorse (30 June 2015)

How terribly sad.  What a superstar he was.  RIP.


----------



## ester (30 June 2015)

I am a bit confused by 

"There also appears to have been a fracture to the spine at the base of the neck, probably between C6 and T2. This ultimately was the most significant injury as it produced the paralysis that made it impossible for him to stand.

"The secondary problems that contributed were pneumonia as a result of being cross tied and unable to put his head down, and laminitis which was the result of the toxins in his body and having to stand for so long."

If he couldn't stand, how was he standing for so long if he had paralysis?


----------



## TBB (30 June 2015)

From what the Racing Post says it must have happened a little while ago, condolences to all connections.


----------



## Michen (30 June 2015)

So, so sad.


----------



## Michen (30 June 2015)

ester said:



			I am a bit confused by 

"There also appears to have been a fracture to the spine at the base of the neck, probably between C6 and T2. This ultimately was the most significant injury as it produced the paralysis that made it impossible for him to stand.

"The secondary problems that contributed were pneumonia as a result of being cross tied and unable to put his head down, and laminitis which was the result of the toxins in his body and having to stand for so long."

If he couldn't stand, how was he standing for so long if he had paralysis?
		
Click to expand...


Probably in a sling I would imagine. Poor ******. He should have died on the hunting field if he was to go.


----------



## Я&R (30 June 2015)

http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd?event_id=9728524&category=0

Here you have more info about this tragedy ;(


----------



## Cinnamontoast (30 June 2015)

Poor Laura, she must be so sad. 

Tragedy? No. A tragedy is a mass shooting of innocents on a beach, not a horse dying.


----------



## Carrots&Mints (30 June 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			Poor Laura, she must be so sad. 

Tragedy? No. A tragedy is a mass shooting of innocents on a beach, not a horse dying.
		
Click to expand...

Both events are tragedies is their own right, lets not turn this into something its not please.

The racing & equine world is mourning a legend.


----------



## ester (30 June 2015)

Michen said:



			Probably in a sling I would imagine. Poor ******. He should have died on the hunting field if he was to go.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure I like the sound of it tbh, especially as they start with 'he didn't suffer' as presumably he was winched up and then kept long enough to get toxic lami + pneumonia with multiple fractures of the pelvis and neck :/


----------



## Cinnamontoast (30 June 2015)

Carrots&Mints said:



			Both events are tragedies is their own right, let&#8217;s not turn this into something it&#8217;s not please.

The racing & equine world is mourning a legend.
		
Click to expand...

I am not turning this into something it's not, I could have used 9/11, the sudden death of a baby or any other event as my analogy. It's sad for owners/rider, but not a tragedy.


----------



## SpringArising (30 June 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			I am not turning this into something it's not, I could have used 9/11, the sudden death of a baby or any other event as my analogy.
		
Click to expand...

The very definitions of tragedy are "an event causing great suffering, destruction, and distress, such as a serious accident" & "a play dealing with tragic events and having an unhappy ending, especially one concerning the downfall of the main character". 

Bit of a strange post - I'd imagine you'd expect a bit more sympathy than what you're currently giving if one of yours dropped dead tomorrow, no?


----------



## CherryTree (30 June 2015)

So sad. RIP Kauto, run free.  He had a good life and a great career.  

What is odd is how the Vets report has made it into the press?  I don't believe we needed to know all the details, I'd rather have just have remembered him cantering round a field, not being winched and cross tied with pneumonia and laminitis


----------



## SadKen (30 June 2015)

This is very sad indeed. RIP Kauto. 

You don't use up sympathy on one tragedy to the point where you've none left for another. The human heart is capable of endless compassion and we won't bankrupt ourselves emotionally by taking a moment to think about Kauto (who meant a great deal to a lot of people) as well as human victims of a terrorist attack. Just my two cents.


----------



## Dollysox (30 June 2015)

Looks like he fell last Wednesday and they probably had him in a sling to try and stabilise him over the weekend but he deteriorated suddenly on Monday.  RIP Kauto - you were one of the best.  Condolences to all of his connections.


----------



## Regandal (30 June 2015)

Farewell to a legend.  They are so big and powerful, yet so fragile.


----------



## Marydoll (30 June 2015)

Carrots&Mints said:



			Both events are tragedies is their own right, lets not turn this into something its not please.

The racing & equine world is mourning a legend.
		
Click to expand...

I agree


----------



## Michen (30 June 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			I am not turning this into something it's not, I could have used 9/11, the sudden death of a baby or any other event as my analogy. It's sad for owners/rider, but not a tragedy.
		
Click to expand...

I can see what you mean here. I guess there are varying scales of tragedy but I agree, I wouldn't call it tragic. Incredibly sad though for everyone involved.


----------



## Starbuck (30 June 2015)

RIP beautiful boy. You gave endless pleasure to so many fans. Its a very sad day.


----------



## Marydoll (30 June 2015)

CherryTree said:



			So sad. RIP Kauto, run free.  He had a good life and a great career.  

What is odd is how the Vets report has made it into the press?  I don't believe we needed to know all the details, I'd rather have just have remembered him cantering round a field, not being winched and cross tied with pneumonia and laminitis 

Click to expand...

I think the vets report is out because there will always be the inevitable speculation around an incident of this kind, as we can see already in some of the posts, what a tragic accident, and devastaing for those who knew and loved him, poor boy


----------



## Chloe..x (30 June 2015)

"There also appears to have been a fracture to the spine at the base of the neck, probably between C6 and T2. This ultimately was the most significant injury as it produced the paralysis that made it impossible for him to stand.

"The secondary problems that contributed were pneumonia as a result of being cross tied and unable to put his head down, and laminitis which was the result of the toxins in his body and having to stand for so long."

The vet report doesn't read well does it, poor horse. Especially after Clive saying that he didn't suffer.


----------



## palo1 (30 June 2015)

I am sure that everyone had the best of intentions for Kauto but it might have been better, on realising how serious his injuries were, to simply let him go before pursuing what sounds like quite intensive treatment.  Reading this has made me really sad.  RIP Kauto.


----------



## Marydoll (30 June 2015)

I dont think speculating is helpful, im sure this horse was given the best of  veterinary care in the hope he might recover, sometimes injuries and fractures dont properly show themselves for a few days, it sounds to me like theyve done and tried everything to give him every chance of recovery, and thats exactly what id do for any of mine until its obvious its not working, when the heartbreaking decision to pts sleep is made.


----------



## dianchi (30 June 2015)

I just find it so sad 

But in my head if the paralysis made it impossible to stand why put him through 5 days he cant have walked in from the field like that?


----------



## Tiddlypom (30 June 2015)

RIP Kauto Star, a true legend.

The vet's report looks grim, but it's quite possible that the full extent of his injuries weren't immediately clear.


----------



## Carrots&Mints (30 June 2015)

He will have been looked after on the best possible way with the best possible vetinary care, they obviously fought very hard to keep him alive. It's such a shame he's gone


----------



## Cinnamontoast (30 June 2015)

SpringArising said:



			The very definitions of tragedy are "an event causing great suffering, destruction, and distress, such as a serious accident" & "a play dealing with tragic events and having an unhappy ending, especially one concerning the downfall of the main character". 

Bit of a strange post - I'd imagine you'd expect a bit more sympathy than what you're currently giving if one of yours dropped dead tomorrow, no?
		
Click to expand...

No, I just think that his dying is not what most would define as a 'tragedy'. Mine died from a broken leg, I got plenty of sympathy, thanks, but I didn't say it was a tragedy. It was extremely sad for me and his other owner, not a tragedy.


----------



## bonny (30 June 2015)

Like everything to do with his retirement, non of it makes any sense and saying something about his injuries just leads to more speculation. The whole thing has been a PR disaster and that includes his death.


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (30 June 2015)

CherryTree said:



			So sad. RIP Kauto, run free.  He had a good life and a great career.  

What is odd is how the Vets report has made it into the press?  I don't believe we needed to know all the details, I'd rather have just have remembered him cantering round a field, not being winched and cross tied with pneumonia and laminitis 

Click to expand...

Don't worry, Clive Smith says horse did not suffer ......... another statement from the owner which lacks credibility. Sorry to be cynical, but there was such a lot of bad feeling about his removal from Ditcheat and it was all so unnecessary, now this. I think Mr Smith will find his reception in NH circles even colder than it has been recently.


----------



## mollymum (30 June 2015)

So shocked when I saw the bad news this morning.  Poor boy, should have had a long and happy retirement.


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (30 June 2015)

Carrots&Mints said:



			He will have been looked after on the best possible way with the best possible vetinary care, they obviously fought very hard to keep him alive. It's such a shame he's gone 

Click to expand...

We had another case last year where the outcome was very sad, veterinary intervention is not always the way to go forward.


----------



## SpringArising (30 June 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			No, I just think that his dying is not what most would define as a 'tragedy'.
		
Click to expand...

Based on what? 95% of the articles I've read about him dying so far have all described the incident as tragic and his death as a tragedy. I would imagine his hundreds of thousands of fans, trainers, owners, funders, grooms and riders would probably disagree that what has happened, and how it happened, isn't tragic.


----------



## Carrots&Mints (30 June 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			Don't worry, Clive Smith says horse did not suffer ......... another statement from the owner which lacks credibility. Sorry to be cynical, but there was such a lot of bad feeling about his removal from Ditcheat and it was all so unnecessary, now this. I think Mr Smith will find his reception in NH circles even colder than it has been recently.
		
Click to expand...

]

Come on guys let&#8217;s not try and be negative, it&#8217;s sad enough that probably the greatest national hunt horse has died without all these comments. We all know that it was very controversial him moving from Ditcheat to Colletts yard, let&#8217;s just say our respects and leave this conversation for another time.


----------



## 9tails (30 June 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			Don't worry, Clive Smith says horse did not suffer ......... another statement from the owner which lacks credibility. Sorry to be cynical, but there was such a lot of bad feeling about his removal from Ditcheat and it was all so unnecessary, now this. I think Mr Smith will find his reception in NH circles even colder than it has been recently.
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe that Clive Smith realises that horses can suffer in the first place.


----------



## katherinef (30 June 2015)

Paul Nicholls has expressed his disappointment he was not allowed to say goodbye to KS he was only told minutes before the press release which beggars belief really.


----------



## Ceriann (30 June 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			No, I just think that his dying is not what most would define as a 'tragedy'. Mine died from a broken leg, I got plenty of sympathy, thanks, but I didn't say it was a tragedy. It was extremely sad for me and his other owner, not a tragedy.
		
Click to expand...

Whether something is viewed as a tragedy is subjective - some people will view this as tragic and others might not.  The same applies to any event.  Either way we are all agreed its not welcome news however we might chose to categorise it ourselves.


----------



## Goldenstar (30 June 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			Poor Laura, she must be so sad. 

Tragedy? No. A tragedy is a mass shooting of innocents on a beach, not a horse dying.
		
Click to expand...

I agree , horse who has a full life with fabulous care PTS with his owner present is very very sad but it is what happens with horses .
Tragedy is going on holiday and being murdered by a terrorist on a beach .


----------



## RunToEarth (30 June 2015)

katherinef said:



			Paul Nicholls has expressed his disappointment he was not allowed to say goodbye to KS he was only told minutes before the press release which beggars belief really.
		
Click to expand...

I'm so gutted for Paul and his team, they have been treated appallingly throughout this and he has only ever wanted the best for that horse. Such a sad thing to happen, the vet's report is pretty damning to be honest.


----------



## Goldenstar (30 June 2015)

This horses owner can't win if he had the horse euthanised straight away people would have complained , and is also condemned because clearly they attempted to assessed whether he could be saved , personally I would not have done this but I would not condemn someone for taking a different choice .
After he foundered they would no have choice , I just don't believe that a horse man of PN calibre would be annoyed that the horse was euthanised before he had a chance to say good bye, do some people really think that a horse in this situation should wait it PTS until after its former trainers pops in to see it , the moment to do it ASAP after the vets decide enough is enough .
Fantastic horse just the best most exciting horse to watch .


----------



## Michen (30 June 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			This horses owner can't win if he had the horse euthanised straight away people would have complained , and is also condemned because clearly they attempted to assessed whether he could be saved , personally I would not have done this but I would not condemn someone for taking a different choice .
After he foundered they would no have choice , I just don't believe that a horse man of PN calibre would be annoyed that the horse was euthanised before he had a chance to say good bye, do some people really think that a horse in this situation should wait it PTS until after its former trainers pops in to see it , the moment to do it ASAP after the vets decide enough is enough .
Fantastic horse just the best most exciting horse to watch .
		
Click to expand...

I guess he probably meant (and I haven't seen what he said) that if the horses condition was so serious he would have liked to have been told so he could see him, in case the inevitable happened. I assume he wasn't even told about the accident until just before it was released.

In all of this, the person I feel for most is Clifford.


----------



## Marydoll (30 June 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			This horses owner can't win if he had the horse euthanised straight away people would have complained , and is also condemned because clearly they attempted to assessed whether he could be saved , personally I would not have done this but I would not condemn someone for taking a different choice .
After he foundered they would no have choice , I just don't believe that a horse man of PN calibre would be annoyed that the horse was euthanised before he had a chance to say good bye, do some people really think that a horse in this situation should wait it PTS until after its former trainers pops in to see it , the moment to do it ASAP after the vets decide enough is enough .
Fantastic horse just the best most exciting horse to watch .
		
Click to expand...

I agree, its a no win situation for them, nobody knows the full situation except those involved, and im in no doubt they made decisions in the best interest of the horse on the information as it presented to them


----------



## Mitchyden (30 June 2015)

Michen said:



			In all of this, the person I feel for most is Clifford.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree with this! RIP Kauto Star and when you get to Rainbow Bridge go back to what you enjoyed doing the most - racing!!!


----------



## gembear (30 June 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			No, I just think that his dying is not what most would define as a 'tragedy'. Mine died from a broken leg, I got plenty of sympathy, thanks, but I didn't say it was a tragedy. It was extremely sad for me and his other owner, not a tragedy.
		
Click to expand...

Seriously, does it matter?

The terrorist attack is terribly sad.
KS not longer being here is terribly sad.

No need to be pedantic.


----------



## Mrs G (30 June 2015)

[QUOTE They are so big and powerful, yet so fragile.[/QUOTE]

This completely; precious, beautiful animals.  Make the most of yours while you can!


----------



## lula (30 June 2015)

bonny said:



			Like everything to do with his retirement, non of it makes any sense and saying something about his injuries just leads to more speculation. The whole thing has been a PR disaster and that includes his death.
		
Click to expand...

id love to know why a 24yr old eventer was given Kauto Star in the first place although i have no doubt she did the best she could under very challenging media circumstances.


----------



## lula (30 June 2015)

Ceriann said:



			Whether something is viewed as a tragedy is subjective - some people will view this as tragic and others might not.  The same applies to any event.  Either way we are all agreed its not welcome news however we might chose to categorise it ourselves.
		
Click to expand...

Well said. What might be viewed as a tragedy to some might not be to others. There is not a death count which makes anything below very sad and anything above, a tragedy. Cant believe we're discussing semantics here. Let it go.


----------



## Bigbenji (30 June 2015)

Hell of an injury. Poor fella. 

Was he being ridden when he fell or just hooling around? Sounds like he did a flip.


----------



## Mooseontheloose (30 June 2015)

As always on this forum there are some very judgemental statements and a lot of supposition. It's very sad, but horses do awful things to themselves, and whatever intervention the vast majority of owners/carers make they think it's  for the best, even if afterwards they may have done it differently.
Sad for everyone but not for me to say what the owner should or shouldn't have done during the horse's life.


----------



## KVH (30 June 2015)

Very sad, what a shame.


----------



## 9tails (30 June 2015)

Sounds like hooleying, Bigbenji.  Sadly the ground is concrete though.  Hence why jump racing is only on during late autumn/winter, there'd be carnage if they fell on sun baked ground.


----------



## tink101 (30 June 2015)

lula said:



			id love to know why a 24yr old eventer was given Kauto Star in the first place although i have no doubt she did the best she could under very challenging media circumstances.
		
Click to expand...

Yogi B advised CS that the racing community would only understand eventing and that it would be in his best interests to go to an eventer and he suggested LC.


----------



## Luci07 (30 June 2015)

You cannot possibly make a judgement on what you would do based on 1 piece of information given in the press. Tragedy/not a tragedy... Semantics. 

And let's not go down the whole debate of his second career. That has become utterly boring.

He was a superb brilliant racehorse. I would much rather be reading people's experiences of him at his best and remember him that way than the speculation over who saw him being destroyed and how much pain he was in.


----------



## EquiEquestrian556 (30 June 2015)

Oh my goodness, only just seen this! I'm so shocked! Poor, poor boy, and after making it out of racing too.

R.I.P. beautiful boy Kauto, run pain-free in Heaven boy. xxx


----------



## EquiEquestrian556 (30 June 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			Tragedy? No. A tragedy is a mass shooting of innocents on a beach, not a horse dying.
		
Click to expand...

Big matter of opinion.


----------



## PolarSkye (30 June 2015)

Luci07 said:



			You cannot possibly make a judgement on what you would do based on 1 piece of information given in the press. Tragedy/not a tragedy... Semantics. 

And let's not go down the whole debate of his second career. That has become utterly boring.

He was a superb brilliant racehorse. I would much rather be reading people's experiences of him at his best and remember him that way than the speculation over who saw him being destroyed and how much pain he was in.
		
Click to expand...

This.  All this sniping and speculating is most unedifying.  My thoughts are with all of his connections and I will be raising a glass in thanks to him tonight for all the pleasure he gave to so many.  Sleep well beautiful boy.

P


----------



## TelH (30 June 2015)

Tragedy or not, I think that is a debate for another time. The racing world is mourning the loss of the greatest chaser, certainly to those of us who are too young to remember Arkle. 
I wonder if there is a racecourse in Heaven, and if there is whether the pair of them will take each other on


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (30 June 2015)

I am sorry to see one of the greatest racehorses we have ever seen no longer be with us. He had a good time racing, loved and adored by many and that was before you got to the greats depths of love and respect his stable staff had for him. 

Kauto was lucky to get a retirement where he got turned out, ridden, loved and well looked after. The same can not be said for many.

R.I.P. big man, may your star shine brightest in the sky x


----------



## ester (30 June 2015)

Owner has just been on the radio, he was told thursday and KS seemed ok until the Saturday (though poss cross tied as a precaution as he got to the lami stage?) went up and down a bit on the sunday then, and that is when the nerve issues became apparent.


----------



## Goldenstar (30 June 2015)

ester said:



			Owner has just been on the radio, he was told thursday and KS seemed ok until the Saturday (though poss cross tied as a precaution as he got to the lami stage?) went up and down a bit on the sunday then, and that is when the nerve issues became apparent.
		
Click to expand...

I thought it was a good interview .


----------



## ester (30 June 2015)

Yes I thought so too, I have to say from the original report what concerned me was what they knew/how long had he been cross tied for to end up with toxic lami but it does sound like he was wrong but ok and then went downhill quite rapidly with the possible neck fracture.


----------



## equestriansports (30 June 2015)

RIP KS, you were loved by many, such a sad time.
I think it's distasteful of people to be comparing two awful events. How you can even compare the two is beyond me. Both are horrific for those involved. Both, in my opinion, are tragedies. A phenomenal horse has died. Holiday makers have died. Which ever way you look at it, people/animals have died. This isn't a case of 'who came off worst'; this is simply a thread for those wishing to express their condolences - why turn it into something it isn't?


----------



## Dusty85 (30 June 2015)

RIP....What a Legend. 

I don't normally get too emotional about things like this, but I have to admit, I shed a tear earlier. What a sad end to a fabulous career. Condolences to all involved with him. 

I have to say however, (and this is my personal opinion) I was always disappointed he went to Laura, rather than spend his days in happy retirement at PN yard, or go to a hunting home. But, it was the choice of his owner, and Im sure he had the best of care. 

If the stories are true regarding PN finding out very last minute then shame on Laura and Clive.


----------



## SkewbyTwo (30 June 2015)

Rumours just hit Facebook that the "paddock injury" story is untrue. Rather that his injury involved an incompetent groom. Just reading more now...but it's there for all to see, for anyone who wants a look.

It didn't sound right to me and having had first hand experience myself of event yards where "grooms" are left with horses with inadequate training for it, I hate to say it but this sounds more plausible.

Has anyone heard any statement from Collett's stable, other than the original disclosure? Seems oddly quiet on that front to me? Very impersonal and...limited.


----------



## ester (30 June 2015)

I also have experience of accidents happening even when all efforts are made to avoid them....


----------



## RunToEarth (30 June 2015)

SkewbyTwo said:



			Rumours just hit Facebook that the "paddock injury" story is untrue. Rather that his injury involved an incompetent groom. Just reading more now...but it's there for all to see, for anyone who wants a look.

It didn't sound right to me and having had first hand experience myself of event yards where "grooms" are left with horses with inadequate training for it, I hate to say it but this sounds more plausible.

Has anyone heard any statement from Collett's stable, other than the original disclosure? Seems oddly quiet on that front to me? Very impersonal and...limited.
		
Click to expand...

Gosh, it's odd that there are rumours on Facebook, what with there being nothing controversial about his second career with Laura. But then again, if it's on Facebook it must be more plausible than the story released in the press...


----------



## Mariposa (30 June 2015)

I just think it's awfully sad that Paul Nicholls and Clifford weren't told about the accident, and weren't given the chance to say goodbye. In fact i think it's just horrible. 

No matter what the fall out between Clive Baker and PN, he should have been the bigger man and let him say goodbye. 

As for Kauto being winched up for six days, I'm sure the vets did everything they could to keep him comfortable. My own opinion is that I would have let him go earlier, the vets report looks very bad.


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (30 June 2015)

lula said:



			id love to know why a 24yr old eventer was given Kauto Star in the first place although i have no doubt she did the best she could under very challenging media circumstances.
		
Click to expand...

lula, keep up here!........... the trainer wanted to keep him at his yard and the owner wanted the horse to have a second career as a dressage horse, the horse was removed from PN's yard by the owner, who sent it to Laura. She rode him under the spotlights at Olympia and it was a PR disaster, as is this.
I suppose she had no choice, but must have had many sleepless nights since then.


----------



## ester (30 June 2015)

Mariposa said:



			I just think it's awfully sad that Paul Nicholls and Clifford weren't told about the accident, and weren't given the chance to say goodbye. In fact i think it's just horrible. 

No matter what the fall out between Clive Baker and PN, he should have been the bigger man and let him say goodbye. 

As for Kauto being winched up for six days, I'm sure the vets did everything they could to keep him comfortable. My own opinion is that I would have let him go earlier, the vets report looks very bad.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but I don't think any horse (or animal) should be kept going so someone can say goodbye!

It does sound like he wasn't on slings for six days, but cross tied and deteriorated rapidly re. the paralysis.


----------



## dingle12 (30 June 2015)

I'm not on Facebook could some one pm me what's been said pls x


----------



## Goldenstar (30 June 2015)

ester said:



			I also have experience of accidents happening even when all efforts are made to avoid them....
		
Click to expand...

Exactly ,but conspiracy theories are just so much more fun.
Turning horses out is always a risk .
But it's a risk worth taking .


----------



## Irish gal (1 July 2015)

Bonkers I'm not up to speed on this but would love to know. Why was it as disaster, what happened? Did PN just want to retire him, it might have been better.


----------



## Moomin1 (1 July 2015)

Mitchyden said:



			Totally agree with this! RIP Kauto Star and when you get to Rainbow Bridge go back to what you enjoyed doing the most - racing!!!
		
Click to expand...

Or perhaps just being a horse and grazing.


----------



## Mike007 (1 July 2015)

Oddly enough ,all the horses here think that racing each other is part and parcel of grazing.


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (1 July 2015)

Irish gal said:



			Bonkers I'm not up to speed on this but would love to know. Why was it as disaster, what happened? Did PN just want to retire him, it might have been better.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, PN wanted to retire him but felt he would be better kept in his yard to be ridden by Clifford as his hack, but Clive Smth was the owner and he sent a lorry to collect the horse from the yard. The horse was duly trained up to do a basic display but owner arranged for him to go to HOYS, under the spotlights and the crowd, the horse seemed reluctant to do his bit, there was a lot of flapping of legs etc by Laura.
After this, I was present at the races when Clice Smith went up to accept a trophy, the applause was muted, nearer to a slow hanclap.....


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (1 July 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			No, I just think that his dying is not what most would define as a 'tragedy'. Mine died from a broken leg, I got plenty of sympathy, thanks, but I didn't say it was a tragedy. It was extremely sad for me and his other owner, not a tragedy.
		
Click to expand...

It was a tragedy for your horse.


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (1 July 2015)

ester said:



			I'm sorry but I don't think any horse (or animal) should be kept going so someone can say goodbye!

It does sound like he wasn't on slings for six days, but cross tied and deteriorated rapidly re. the paralysis.
		
Click to expand...

I haven't commented on the accident so far, and the injuries seem severe even for a paddock accident, but to be fair, if our own horses suffered such injuries, the normal course of events would be to shoot it straight away, not to keep it going, there have been both sucessful and unsucessful veterinary interventions in similar cases, but usually not for geldings in retirement.
I am sure PN would not have wanted to keep the horse in suffering to say goodbye, remember he was only told about this a few minutes before the press were clamouring for a statement. And it was Laura, not Clive Smith who contacted him, all bad PR, the opportunity to pour oil on troubled waters was lost.


----------



## Patterdale (1 July 2015)

Not everyone believes it was a paddock accident....


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (1 July 2015)

Patterdale said:



			Not everyone believes it was a paddock accident....
		
Click to expand...

The whole retirement thing has been a PR disaster, the accident was kept pretty quiet, time will tell.


----------



## Patterdale (1 July 2015)

The rumour is that he decked someone and then ran into a wall at speed. They tried to treat at home (under the vet) as they were keen to cover up, but finally took him to the vet hosp at 11pm sat night. The accident was on weds. He had been standing in with multiple broken bones until then. 
If these allegations (from a usually reliable source) are true, then it is truly disgusting of them.


----------



## redrufus (1 July 2015)

Well I, for one, do think this is a tragedy. That a horse as brave, beautiful, talented and charismatic should have been subjected to this 'retirement' and then die in such awful suspicious circumstances, is a tragedy in my eyes. Clive Smith and Laura Collett should hang their heads in shame.


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (1 July 2015)

Patterdale said:



			The rumour is that he decked someone and then ran into a wall at speed. They tried to treat at home (under the vet) as they were keen to cover up, but finally took him to the vet hosp at 11pm sat night. The accident was on weds. He had been standing in with multiple broken bones until then. 
If these allegations (from a usually reliable source) are true, then it is truly disgusting of them.
		
Click to expand...

Decked someone, you mean he bolted or they fell off or something, anyway we will never really know, injuries are more consistent with your version. He would not be a novice ride, which would probably be one reason PN wanted to keep him at Ditcheat.


----------



## Patterdale (1 July 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			He would not be a novice ride,
		
Click to expand...

He wasn't, one of the many reasons he was never suitable as a RoR. He was well known for dropping riders. 

By decked, I mean chucked someone off.


----------



## Alec Swan (1 July 2015)

Patterdale said:



			The rumour is that he decked someone and then ran into a wall at speed. They tried to treat at home (under the vet) as they were keen to cover up, but finally took him to the vet hosp at 11pm sat night. The accident was on weds. He had been standing in with multiple broken bones until then. 
If these allegations (from a usually reliable source) are true, then it is truly disgusting of them.
		
Click to expand...

The rumour mill is certainly grinding away!  It does seem strange,  though not impossible,  that the injuries sustained were at both ends,  and from a simple fall in his paddock.  A fractured pelvis possibly,  but the main and major damage,  it seems,  were the spinal injuries around his withers.  Not impossible,  obviously,  but enough to raise an eyebrow,  or two,  and when coupled to the level of secrecy,  then those who made the decision that a blanket should be thrown over this whole sorry tail,  really haven't helped matters.

A national treasure has been lost,  and that's the real sadness.

Alec.


----------



## be positive (1 July 2015)

redrufus said:



			Well I, for one, do think this is a tragedy. That a horse as brave, beautiful, talented and charismatic should have been subjected to this 'retirement' and then die in such awful suspicious circumstances, is a tragedy in my eyes. Clive Smith and Laura Collett should hang their heads in shame.
		
Click to expand...

Whether or not the circumstances of his accident are suspicious I have no idea, it will be the cause of much speculation and probably never be explained to the satisfaction of his fans.

His "retirement" has been criticised from all angles and was never going to please everyone, retiring to stay in PN's yard would have made most people happy but was it right for the horse to remain in training in the routine of a busy yard where he was no longer going to be the number 1 horse, where he would have been "worked" each day to exercise and be kept fit but with no racing to enjoy, there is limited hacking in the area, little turnout on the main yard, I am sure Clifford would have continued to care for him and ride him out but to me that is not a good retirement. 
Maybe going to Laura was not ideal but what were the options for a healthy, fairly tricky individual that had the media attention he had, he could have simply been turned away but that has it's risks, CS is attention seeking he wanted to continue to keep KS in the limelight and his fans still wanted the opportunity to see him parade. I think he probably enjoyed the last 2 years, plenty of fuss, being turned out regularly, enough work to keep him active mentally and physically, certainly a better retirement than many horses have, I think LC is being unfairly criticised for her part in his retirement, I don't think many young event riders would have turned away the opportunity to have him in their yard but she may well regret it now.


----------



## el_Snowflakes (1 July 2015)

It doesn't really matter what happened. The horse suffered catastrophic injury & was put to sleep- I'm not sure why people have to know all the details.


----------



## ozpoz (1 July 2015)

The more I read the sadder I feel. 
The loss of a wonderful horse, the trainer who knew him best being disregarded, the demeaning display at HOYS, and now this. 
: (


----------



## wildhorses (1 July 2015)

I don't understand why they tried to keep him going for so long. Either of the injuries sustained would have been enough for most horses to be put down, both together what chance was there? Even is the accident was deemed recoverable the treatment would most likely be awful and include a period of being cross tied. Why would anyone put a retired horse through all that? The horse didn't owe anyone a thing. Why did they not have the decency to end his suffering as soon as the full extent of the injuries were known?


----------



## RunToEarth (1 July 2015)

el_Snowflakes said:



			It doesn't really matter what happened. The horse suffered catastrophic injury & was put to sleep- I'm not sure why people have to know all the details.
		
Click to expand...

Because when you own/care for/ride a horse like KS who was a national treasure and considered to be one of the great horses of his time, you will have the eyes of the industry and all of his fans upon you. With great power comes great responsibility and all that. Trying to cover things up is never going to end well is it?


----------



## fburton (1 July 2015)

What RTE said.


----------



## Alec Swan (1 July 2015)

RunToEarth said:



			Because when you own/care for/ride a horse like KS who was a national treasure and considered to be one of the great horses of his time, you will have the eyes of the industry and all of his fans upon you. With great power comes great responsibility and all that. Trying to cover things up is never going to end well is it?
		
Click to expand...

I also agree,  and when a horse is promoted and offered in to the public arena,  with those who are involved with him bathing in the attendant glory which accompany's success,  then YES,  they most certainly are answerable to the fans and those who've been the mainstay of their support.  Without the £2.5 MILLION in winnings,  winnings provided by the racing public,  so the likes of Smith et al,  would be unlikely to own race horses.  It's an interesting point that with the Racing in the ME,  there are no Bookies,  because gambling for money just isn't 'done'! 

Alec.


----------



## Chloe..x (1 July 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			The rumour mill is certainly grinding away!  It does seem strange,  though not impossible,  that the injuries sustained were at both ends,  and from a simple fall in his paddock.  A fractured pelvis possibly,  but the main and major damage,  it seems,  were the spinal injuries around his withers.  Not impossible,  obviously,  but enough to raise an eyebrow,  or two,  and when coupled to the level of secrecy,  then those who made the decision that a blanket should be thrown over this whole sorry tail,  really haven't helped matters.

A national treasure has been lost,  and that's the real sadness.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

This crossed my mind when I was having a discussion about it last night at the yard. Something doesn't add up and the truth will hopefully come out.


----------



## Dab (1 July 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			I also agree,  and when a horse is promoted and offered in to the public arena,  with those who are involved with him bathing in the attendant glory which accompany's success,  then YES,  they most certainly are answerable to the fans and those who've been the mainstay of their support.  Without the £2.5 MILLION in winnings,  winnings provided by the racing public,  so the likes of Smith et al,  would be unlikely to own race horses.  
Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Totally this ^^^ you can't have it both ways, i.e want the public attention and glory when things are going well (sic!)...and then not be answerable to the fans when things go wrong!


----------



## Merrymoles (1 July 2015)

Alec talking lots of sense as usual.


----------



## ester (1 July 2015)

The thing is that they probably didn't know he had multiple broken bones to start with, we don't even know how complete the fractures were. Presumably he seemed ok to cross tie in case (standard treatment if he had had a fracture) and plan to xray but that they didn't really get to that point. -The figures do actually stack up in favour of pelvic fractures returning to full work/winning races etc.

Yes if privately owned he may well have been PTS but there are so many unknowns about the pelvis and even if they had scanned there was no way they could possibly know about anything going on in the neck which resulted in the paralysis and final decision. 

I can completely understand them saying he was in the paddock even if he wasn't rather than allow some poor groom to be vilified for the loss of a national treasure either through mistake (which we all make) or accident.


----------



## rara007 (1 July 2015)

My pony was treated at home (under vet care) for a broken pelvis and returned to work and Id still sound 19 years later... We wernt trying to cover up- she just didn't need hospitalisation (or to be moved).
 If they'd had a new method of imaging (yet to be made) and could have known the extent of his injuries then maybe things would have been different- but they just wouldn't have had any way of telling, 4.5 days to see if there's improvement following trauma (with appropriate pain relief) isn't outragious to my mind. I certainly don't think my pony still jumping aged 29 (broke pelvis at 10) would have been better if shot as soon as she did it. It's a gamble keeping them alive to see if they can recover or they'll go downhill, but horses have returned to racing after both broken pelvises and broken necks, it wasn't a clear cut hopeless case.


----------



## Tiddlypom (1 July 2015)

ester said:



			I can completely understand them saying he was in the paddock even if he wasn't rather than allow some poor groom to be vilified for the loss of a national treasure either through mistake (which we all make) or accident.
		
Click to expand...

Me too.

Also I've had a neighbour's mare here in the cross ties, with a non displaced fractured wing of ilium, for several weeks. She was VERY sore to start with, but the vet forbade the use of painkillers as she was not, under any circumstances, allowed to lie down. It was pretty unpleasant for her and for us for the first few days, but she went on to make a full recovery. 

So maybe the decision to keep him going initially, rather than PTS, was understandable whilst his injuries were fully assessed.


----------



## RunToEarth (1 July 2015)

ester said:



			I can completely understand them saying he was in the paddock even if he wasn't rather than allow some poor groom to be vilified for the loss of a national treasure either through mistake (which we all make) or accident.
		
Click to expand...

I can understand why they would do that. However, knowing the controversy around his second career and the public slaughter of his tour of Olympia last Christmas, I'm not sure it was a good idea to cover anything up - there is nothing like the equine world for rumours, opinions (no matter how misplaced) and baying for someone's blood. It might have been an idea to issue a statement on the Wednesday in hindsight, so it looked like less of a scandal to en mass.


----------



## sarahann1 (1 July 2015)

el_Snowflakes said:



			It doesn't really matter what happened. The horse suffered catastrophic injury & was put to sleep- I'm not sure why people have to know all the details.
		
Click to expand...

^^^^
100% This! Freak accidents happen, with the benefit of hindsight many of us have done things we'd now do differently.

RIP Kauto Star


----------



## katherinef (1 July 2015)

this fabulous, great, great horse was utterly let down in retirement. I am just praying the rumours circulating about what really happened to Kauto are just rumours. But they seem very severe injuries for a paddock accident unless he tried jumping out and sustained a rotational
the fact it was all kept very quiet does not sit well either.


----------



## Elbie (1 July 2015)

ester said:



			The thing is that they probably didn't know he had multiple broken bones to start with, we don't even know how complete the fractures were. Presumably he seemed ok to cross tie in case (standard treatment if he had had a fracture) and plan to xray but that they didn't really get to that point. -The figures do actually stack up in favour of pelvic fractures returning to full work/winning races etc.

Yes if privately owned he may well have been PTS but there are so many unknowns about the pelvis and even if they had scanned there was no way they could possibly know about anything going on in the neck which resulted in the paralysis and final decision.
		
Click to expand...

This.

Without seeing a written vet report (which they have no obligation to share), it's impossible to say whether what they did was right or wrong. I would imagine that the vet thought it was possible he would come right but sadly he deteriorated.

Someone said about a cover up/suspicious as they treated at home. I work in equine insurance and have seen my fair share of injury advices for pelvic fractures. 9 times out of 10 they are treating at home as they don't want to risk further injury. And then it can go either way really. I think it's very hard to determine the extent of a pelvic fracture 100% and yes while some horses can come right, others will dramatically go downhill quickly or some will remain lame for a month with severe muscle wastage and end up being put down. Sadly there isn't much you can do for a pelvic fracture other than wait and see.

I would imagine they weren't fully aware of the neck injury but if so, again, not much you can really do for it other than wait and see. 

Very sad end for a racing legend.


----------



## Freddie19 (1 July 2015)

I have not been on the Forum for some time, have been a member, backwards and forwards for many years, left as it has turned from a good knowledgeable site with many experts giving advice and help to many people into a "facebook" thing, ie nasty uninformed, made up stories.  I also found it sad when KS did not stay at PN yard, but sure there was reasons, CS owned the horse paid the bills, it was up to him.  I wanted to remember KS sweeping over fences, sticking his head out to win races, grazing with Denman, but all I have in mind now is a vision of a horse in pain, head down and unable to stand, thanks to the person who either made up the socalled report from vets, or decided for some reason to put it in the public domain. Given that Balthzaar King was at Leahurst for some weeks with a life threatening injuries and is now back at home happily, we were kept informed without seeing a vet report, it was not needed.  No matter what happened to KS, and after all some of you are accusing his keepers of lying, he is dead, and I am so sorry.


----------



## Alec Swan (1 July 2015)

I strongly suspect that even though the horse concerned had an ego to match most,  it was but nothing compared with the egos of those who surrounded him.

Sad to think that those who genuinely cared for the poor boy,  couldn't reach accord.

Alec.

ps.  welcome back Freddie,  I've missed your posts.


----------



## Freddie19 (1 July 2015)

You see Alec, unless you personally know the people involved, and have spoken to them face to face, nobody can for definite say what went on as he left PN yard. All I know and I say again, it is not right to make a horrible situation worse by repeating rumours, and for goodness sake to quote facebook posts as someone has, come on get real.  One of the best tributes I read was by AP McCoy, I will not quote but you can look it up, but I was fascinated to read that his daughter Eva keeps her pony at Laura Colletts yard and rides there often, I will let you read remained of his tribute.


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (1 July 2015)

el_Snowflakes said:



			It doesn't really matter what happened. The horse suffered catastrophic injury & was put to sleep- I'm not sure why people have to know all the details.
		
Click to expand...

The horse was not put to sleep straight away, and the owner has a bit of an agenda to overcome, an agenda which is all of his own making, that is why there is speculation.


----------



## teapot (1 July 2015)

Freddie19 said:



			Given that Balthzaar King was at Leahurst for some weeks with a life threatening injuries and is now back at home happily, we were kept informed without seeing a vet report, it was not needed.
		
Click to expand...

Balthazar King's fall and subsequent taking out by another horse was seen by millions on the tv screen and the trainer was very quick to keep everyone updated though an open and honest policy.

Sadly, the PR machine has never been reliable when it comes to Kauto Star's life post racing, from the leaving of Paul Nicholls' yard onwards. It appears to have failed them once again. IF they are found to have been lying, or the statement released is false, it does not do any of those involved any good reputation and trustworthiness wise. 

Anyone who deals with horses knows and appreciates that accident can and do happen. So in this day and age where it takes 30 seconds to send out a press release on social media, why on earth did they keep it quiet? A very simple statement of 'Kauto Star has had a fall/accident at home, currently under veterinary monitoring and treatment. We will update as we know more' would have been far better than the ****storm that's happened in the last twenty four hours. 

Honesty goes a long way, especially in the equine world and even more so when it comes to high profile names. Whilst I'm of the opinion it shouldn't be necessary, for a horse with such a following, the media game has to be done. In the same way, the updates about Balthazar King was regular and open, because of being another racehorse with a massive following.


----------



## Alec Swan (1 July 2015)

teapot,

I often rely upon and use an old adage;  "When the truth'll do,  use it".  Others don't,  it seems.

Alec.

and ets,  with such a shroud of secrecy,  did those who were able to make such decisions,  consider it to be such a good idea?


----------



## Alec Swan (1 July 2015)

oops! 

a.


----------



## RunToEarth (1 July 2015)

Freddie19 said:



			Given that Balthzaar King was at Leahurst for some weeks with a life threatening injuries and is now back at home happily, we were kept informed without seeing a vet report, it was not needed.  No matter what happened to KS, and after all some of you are accusing his keepers of lying, he is dead, and I am so sorry.
		
Click to expand...

That is completely incomparable. He fell in one of the biggest and most controversial races in front of an international audience, and Philip knew it was right to keep everyone updated.
The KS scenario is entirely different.


----------



## ester (1 July 2015)

I think it is hard to decide to do an update when you don't really know the extent of the situation. I can understand it being decided it would be better to wait and give a more accurate view in a few days time, obviously in hindsight with the result that was possibly the wrong choice.


----------



## minesadouble (1 July 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			The horse was not put to sleep straight away, and the owner has a bit of an agenda to overcome, an agenda which is all of his own making, that is why there is speculation.
		
Click to expand...

I am quite sure the decision to try to treat his injuries was made in conjunction with veterinary advice.


----------



## Mooseontheloose (1 July 2015)

And actually, it's none of our business. We don't own horsey superstars, any more than we own celebrities. We don't need to know everything. And we certainly don't need to make allegations, conjectures, suppositions, when no one can know everything, unless they are the ones directly involved. 
I'm impressed KS was considered worthy of main news on radio and tv, and saddened that he has died, but I don't need to know the 'inside story'.


----------



## Freddie19 (1 July 2015)

You have put it much better than I Mooseontheloose thank you, Well done. Oh for the days before Face Book and forums..........


----------



## Cortez (1 July 2015)

Freddie19 said:



			You have put it much better than I Mooseontheloose thank you, Well done. Oh for the days before Face Book and forums..........
		
Click to expand...

Indeed..............


----------



## Michen (1 July 2015)

http://www.racingpost.com/news/hors...-death/1907917/#newsArchiveTabs=last7DaysNews

Makes sense


----------



## Doormouse (1 July 2015)

wildhorses said:



			I don't understand why they tried to keep him going for so long. Either of the injuries sustained would have been enough for most horses to be put down, both together what chance was there? Even is the accident was deemed recoverable the treatment would most likely be awful and include a period of being cross tied. Why would anyone put a retired horse through all that? The horse didn't owe anyone a thing. Why did they not have the decency to end his suffering as soon as the full extent of the injuries were known?
		
Click to expand...

This exactly, he owed nobody anything, why the hell put him through that.

Accidents happen with horses no matter how careful we are and we all live with that day to day and no doubt have experience of it from a tiny over reach to a broken leg if unlucky. What I don't and can't condone is letting him deteriorate to the stage of being unable to sit up, what a dreadful undignified end for any horse let alone a star like him.

Vets treat what they see but not all of them add in compassion as well I'm afraid. I would never personally even consider cross tying a retired horse with a fracture, it is painful and risky with a guarded long term prognosis.


----------



## Mariposa (1 July 2015)

ester said:



			I'm sorry but I don't think any horse (or animal) should be kept going so someone can say goodbye!
		
Click to expand...

That's not what I was saying - you're misunderstood me. I meant, given the horse's injuries I'm surprised they weren't told when it happened, so they could come and see him in hopsital. Whatever the gripes between them and the owner it would seem the right thing to do to me. 

At no point did I say they should have kept the horse alive and suffering so they could say their goodbyes.

EDIT - having read the Racing Post article which suggests there was a possible second incident, after the initial injuries following an accident  "  that those responsible for the 15-year-old are unable to explain", I too am confused about what actually happened. How does a horse have that many injuries falling in the field? I just feel very sorry for all involved - it makes you realise how fragile horses actually are.


----------



## ester (1 July 2015)

Ah sorry, I don't think, as per the link Michen posted that they really knew the extent of his injuries/that it was likely to lead to a rapid need to PTS so perhaps didn't see the need at the time to speak to them, though easy to say in hindsight.


----------



## el_Snowflakes (1 July 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			The horse was not put to sleep straight away, and the owner has a bit of an agenda to overcome, an agenda which is all of his own making, that is why there is speculation.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe so, 
But there are definitely bigger issues in the news that warrant more thought than an ex racehorse being put down, however sad it is.


----------



## minesadouble (1 July 2015)

As I said earlier he was treated by a qualified veterinary surgeon. In my experience the Vet will advise the owner on the likely prognosis. The Vet who visited the horse on the day knows what the situation was at that time. A bunch of people on a forum with a bee in their bonnet know nothing!!
It is not uncommon for the full extent of injuries to remain undiscovered at initial examination - whether horse or human. 
At the end of the day the horse belonged to Clive Smith and the decision re his future post retirement is down to the owner.
For those saying he should have gone hunting, we currently have 2 ex- racehorses (both of whom have raced over fences who both find hunting nothing but a major stress and do not enjoy it at all! So it is not the answer  for every ex-racehorse!


----------



## ester (1 July 2015)

Doormouse said:



			This exactly, he owed nobody anything, why the hell put him through that.

Accidents happen with horses no matter how careful we are and we all live with that day to day and no doubt have experience of it from a tiny over reach to a broken leg if unlucky. What I don't and can't condone is letting him deteriorate to the stage of being unable to sit up, what a dreadful undignified end for any horse let alone a star like him.

Vets treat what they see but not all of them add in compassion as well I'm afraid. I would never personally even consider cross tying a retired horse with a fracture, it is painful and risky with a guarded long term prognosis.
		
Click to expand...

Have you read the link Michen posted, they didn't know of the fracture straight away, but treated it as was in case until they could scan it (haemorrhage (which they mention) and swelling at the time can make imaging difficult straight after- they could see a fracture but not the details of it on the saturday lunchtime. I might not have then sent him to the hospital but can understand why they did/thought it would be the best for him as they really didn't know what was going on/why he deteriorated - and like is suggested he may have looked better on the hind than he should due to nerve damage.


----------



## silu (1 July 2015)

There is now a very different account to that which was 1st issued about Kauto's last few days on The Racing Post website. I fail to understand why such a revered horse wasn't thoroughly  examined by the very best vets available immediately it was noticed he had a "graze on his flank" especially as  Laura Collett had no idea how he had acquired the injury. All us equine owners know that something which appears minor at the outset can quickly become major when the cause of an injury is not known. It is no wonder there are rumours flying about as to how his injury happened, when, intentionally or otherwise misleading accounts have been released.  I don't think we'll ever find out the whole truth as to how Kauto got injured, the fact remains  that this wonderful horse met a very sad end. I feel extremely privileged to have seen both Arkle and Kauto race in the flesh. It is regrettable that NH nowadays seems to attract a very different type of owner to the majority of those in years gone by.


----------



## ester (1 July 2015)

Are you suggesting the vet used was substandard? Or that more examination should have been done sooner?


----------



## Caol Ila (1 July 2015)

Reading the most recent Racing Post article, the horse was examined by a vet as soon as they discovered the injury, and the vet suspected a fractured pelvis, at which point the horse was put in cross-ties at his yard.  As per the vet's statement in the article and the comments of posters in this thread who have had horses with that type of injury, this is the standard operating procedure.  What more do you want?


----------



## firm (2 July 2015)

I agree with Caol Ila. As I read this thread and the first RP article it sounded exactly the same as my horse who injured himself in the paddock in front of me and had a suspected pelvic fracture and/or neck injury. When I read the second more detailed RP article I had tears in my eyes for them and KS, the gradual worsening, cross ties, poss laminitis etc all fits.  At the time with my horse I googled a lot  and for those of you with suspicious minds I assure you I found loads of stories similar or the same as what has been described.  Search wobblers /paddock accident/ pelvic fractures.  

RIP Kauto Star  So sad


----------



## peaceandquiet1 (2 July 2015)

this sums it up for me


----------



## Goldenstar (2 July 2015)

Many of us will have seen severe injuries that happened in the field .
You often don't know how it happened , how can you unless you sit watching them the whole time .


----------



## Doormouse (2 July 2015)

ester said:



			Have you read the link Michen posted, they didn't know of the fracture straight away, but treated it as was in case until they could scan it (haemorrhage (which they mention) and swelling at the time can make imaging difficult straight after- they could see a fracture but not the details of it on the saturday lunchtime. I might not have then sent him to the hospital but can understand why they did/thought it would be the best for him as they really didn't know what was going on/why he deteriorated - and like is suggested he may have looked better on the hind than he should due to nerve damage.
		
Click to expand...

I did read it and although I appreciate the pelvic injury situation I cannot see how he was allowed to deteriorate to the point where he couldn't sit up, a very undignified end. He clearly went down on cross ties twice, once would have been enough for me to pull the pins, then he was travelled, then he spent at least 36 hours detoriating before finally they pts. Those 36 hours sound awful for him and I believe there comes a point that no matter what science and diagnostics are in place, people should be able to make a fair decision for a horse based on what they can see with their own eyes.


----------



## BlueSocks (2 July 2015)

That second article is a very sad read - poor horse, makes me feel a bit sick imagining him not even being able to sit up. I think what Vet Lawrence says makes sense, although when it mentions him going down in the cross ties it did also make me wonder if the broken neck actually could have happened then, which if so would be pretty awful. Who knows - but at the same time I'm sure that no one connected with him would have intentionality allowed him to suffer. Here is a classic case of "if only they could talk", which I'm sure all of us have gone through at some point, trying to understand what is going on with our horses. Very sad. I don't think the owner does himself many favours in this article though 
http://www.racingpost.com/news/hors...907969/related/#newsArchiveTabs=last7DaysNews
There is a time and a place to put personal issues aside I think, this situation being case in point. I feel Clive Smith should have manned up a bit and spoken to Paul Nicholas himself. I think Laura Collett is taking a lot of pretty unfair criticism tbh.


----------



## Daffodil (2 July 2015)

The statement from the vets in today's Racing Post is one of the most distressing articles of its kind I have ever read.  Heart-breaking and left me in tears.


----------



## ester (2 July 2015)

As ever I think hindsight is a wonderful thing.


----------



## Orangehorse (2 July 2015)

Daffodil said:



			The statement from the vets in today's Racing Post is one of the most distressing articles of its kind I have ever read.  Heart-breaking and left me in tears.
		
Click to expand...

Me too.  But I don't think that anyone did anything wrong, they were all acting in the best interests of the horse.  We know how good horses are at hurting themselves.  Think of Mr. Frisk who was the most flamboyant racehorse, and then broke his leg out on a hack.

What a sad end for Kauto Star.


----------



## Alec Swan (2 July 2015)

BlueSocks said:



			That second article is a very sad read - poor horse, &#8230;&#8230;.. . I think Laura Collett is taking a lot of pretty unfair criticism tbh.
		
Click to expand...

Considering that LC would have been acting under instruction,  and also considering that the decisions were most probably taken by the horse's owner,  I agree with you.  It would be interesting to hear of her innermost thoughts,  and from the outset,  but that's unlikely to happen.

Further,  'IF' the quotes attributed to Smith are factual,  then Nicholls didn't help the situation either.  In a post elsewhere,  I said that the egos of those involved in the life of KS were such that there was never going to be any level of accord or decency,  which is to be expected,  and sad too.  I'm becoming ever more certain!

One question,  and whilst not wishing to add to the uproar,  I was surprised to read the quote that KS,  whilst cross-tied 'must-have' (their words) gone down (presumably in the night),  and couldn't regain his feet.  Considering the national interest in the horse and his world-wide standing,  I'm staggered that he wasn't under constant surveillance.  Also,  considering the horse's winnings alone,  would it have been so difficult to pay a night-watcher eighty quid a night to sit up and watch a screen?  With each and every apparently sanctioned press release,  the events following the initial fall,  seem to reveal a worsening story and one approaching neglect.  Being wise,  after the event is a pointless argument in this case.  Perhaps I'm wrong.

In my opinion,  no one involved with this horse comes up smelling of roses,  and I'm wondering if The Morning Line stance will be as we'd expect of them,  with the quoted reports being arranged to make an ameliorating and pointless response.  We'll see!

Alec.


----------



## fburton (2 July 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			One question,  and whilst not wishing to add to the uproar,  I was surprised to read the quote that KS,  whilst cross-tied 'must-have' (their words) gone down (presumably in the night),  and couldn't regain his feet.  Considering the national interest in the horse and his world-wide standing,  I'm staggered that he wasn't under constant surveillance.
		
Click to expand...

This is quite shocking (assuming it's true)! :eek3:


----------



## palo1 (2 July 2015)

The veterinary report quoted makes sense but I agree with Alec that under the circumstances it seems sad the horse wasn't being watched all the time - for exactly the reason that he might go down in the cross ties and that as the extent and complete nature of his injuries were not at that point known, further damage could be caused.   Considering the proportion of horse-owners/trainers etc that would ensure a colicking horse, for example, was watched through the night, it wouldn't seem unreasonable that Kauto Star may have had someone with him, just in case. 

 It is just desperately sad and no matter what the truth of much of Kauto Star's recent history, it does seem like a PR disaster.  Let us all hope that in time, it is Kauto Star's extraordinary life that we remember, not his very sad death.


----------



## Caol Ila (2 July 2015)

Hindsight is 20/20.

A horse at a barn I used to board at broke her leg and was cross-tied in her stall; she had to be prevented from going down at all costs.  And she had to be on her feet in the cross-ties for at least two months.  A few weeks into treatment, when it all seemed to be going well, the horse went down in the cross-ties and had to be euthed.  

It's not like a colicky horse that needs to be watched for one or two nights.  You're looking at a couple months.  I suppose with the kind of money Kauto's people have, it's more feasible than it is for Average Joe Horse Owner, but it's unfair to say they were neglectful in not doing it.  Many people don't.


----------



## palo1 (2 July 2015)

Caol Ila said:



			Hindsight is 20/20.

A horse at a barn I used to board at broke her leg and was cross-tied in her stall; she had to be prevented from going down at all costs.  And she had to be on her feet in the cross-ties for at least two months.  A few weeks into treatment, when it all seemed to be going well, the horse went down in the cross-ties and had to be euthed.  

It's not like a colicky horse that needs to be watched for one or two nights.  You're looking at a couple months.  I suppose with the kind of money Kauto's people have, it's more feasible than it is for Average Joe Horse Owner, but it's unfair to say they were neglectful in not doing it.  Many people don't.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, I didn't mean that he should be watched indefinitely/potentially for months as that clearly is difficult, but certainly whilst the nature and extent of his injuries were being assessed: i.e for a few days.  As we all know too, horses are all individual in their response to treatment/box rest/cross-tying etc and that would have to be a part of the assessment as to whether treatment is viable.  I know that in my own case, the horse's ability to cope with treatment/confinement/rehab has been a deciding factor sadly.  

 I am quite sure that everyone has had the best of intentions and it is very easy to be wise in hindsight. Purely from a personal perspective I would not cross-tie an injured, precious and certainly usually sharp horse without constant observation in the initial assessment period.  What would be the point of doing this with the hope of stabilising an injury if there is no-one on hand to try to ensure that the horse doesn't go down if at all possible?  It is surprising to me that if the report is correct, that this wasn't the case.


----------



## Annagain (2 July 2015)

The whole thing is very sad. 

I suppose it is possible that even if he was being watched, if he was in that much pain standing he went down despite their efforts to keep him up, especially if they were on their own. This could even (unfairly) be where the "incompetent groom" rumour came from. 

My granddad has alzheimers and occasionally on the way to the bathroom decides he can't walk any more and just sits down there and then on the floor, despite being accompanied / helped by at least one person. If he tries to do that's there's no way you can stop him and he weighs 1/10th of a horse Kauto's size so I can see how it would be very difficult to keep him up if he was desperate to go down. 

I can also see how this could have displaced the neck injury - after all - any of us unlucky enough to suffer a riding injury, particularly concussion, that required and ambulance will recall just how much effort they make not to move you and how they always assume the worst for necks even if you show no symptoms or have no pain in that area. I think it's entirely plausible that they weren't aware of the neck injury because the pelvis was causing more pain/symptoms, until it became displaced and then caused the neurological problems. 

I'm not a fan of racing. I'm not anti-it, just don't follow it but even I knew how special this boy was. RIP Kauto


----------



## Alec Swan (2 July 2015)

Caol Ila said:



			Hindsight is 20/20.

&#8230;&#8230;.. , but it's unfair to say they were neglectful in not doing it.  Many people don't.
		
Click to expand...

Considering the attendant wealth,  and were the horse mine,  then he would not have gone one single minute without surveillance.  Is criticism,  considering the hopefully reliable quotes 'Unfair'?  Honestly?  I only read from the RP posts which quote those who attended to the horse.  'Neglectful'?  We'll draw our own conclusions,  I suspect.  It defies any reason to suggest there was any degree of neglect,  but as the 'quotes'  and following questions seem to continue,  so do the doubts. 

There are so many anomalies attached to this sorry story.

Alec.


----------



## ester (2 July 2015)

As annagain, I don't see how anyone would stop half a tonne of horse going down if it happens quickly.


----------



## silu (2 July 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Considering the attendant wealth,  and were the horse mine,  then he would not have gone one single minute without surveillance.  Is criticism,  considering the hopefully reliable quotes 'Unfair'?  Honestly?  I only read from the RP posts which quote those who attended to the horse.  'Neglectful'?  We'll draw our own conclusions,  I suspect.  It defies any reason to suggest there was any degree of neglect,  but as the 'quotes'  and following questions seem to continue,  so do the doubts. 

There are so many anomalies attached to this sorry story.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more.


----------



## Tiddlypom (2 July 2015)

Its all very sad. It was pure luck that the mare I looked after didn't try to lie down in the cross ties. However, she was not given any pain relief , precisely because the vet wanted it to hurt if she tried to move too much or lie down. I was warned to be very careful when mucking out etc, as the vet said the fracture could give at any time, and she would drop .

She settled well enough, though, with constant access to soaked hay on one side and a water bucket on the other, and company always within sight. We didn't monitor her round the clock, although she was regularly checked. 

If she'd wanted to go down, she would have done, and none of us could have stopped her (16.2hh of shire cross).

ETA The vet I refer to is a respected equine vet. He's partially retired now, but he's still one of the duty vets that you will see at Aintree on GN day.


----------



## Carrots&Mints (2 July 2015)

I just cant believe hes gone, I really am so sad about it all, never even seen the horse in the flesh (I wish I had have done). I hope PN and CS sort things out. 

We should be remembering Kauto Star for how he managed to win so many brilliant races, how he was a fantastic race horse probably the greatest one we will see for a while! Not remembering him not enjoying his time doing dressage at Olympia or the spat between PN & CS or the controversy surrounding his death.

He should be remembered for what he was - He won the Betfair chase 4 times, the King George 5 times, the Cheltenham gold cup twice, his time form rating was 191 which is tremendous! He was the top rated steeplechase horses from 2006-2012  6 years!!!!  He was the most successful steeplechasers this era has seen!!!! He finished his career with nearly £4 million pounds worth of earnings!!! Wow you actually cant say any more!! Just WOW he was amazing. He is (was) one in a million and we wont see a horse like this again for many many years!!!!!
Condolences for all involved

The Equine and Racing world is mourning a death of a true Equine superstar and I wish some folk on here would just respect that!!!!!

I have put that part in a bigger font just so people actually look at what he did!


----------



## Alec Swan (2 July 2015)

ester said:



			As annagain, I don't see how anyone would stop half a tonne of horse going down if it happens quickly.
		
Click to expand...

I'd agree,  except that the problem arises with the available quote,  to whit; 'He 'must have',  gone down during the night'.  'Must-have' would imply that there's no certainty,  which would also imply that he wasn't being watched at the time.  Yes?

Alec.


----------



## ester (2 July 2015)

Yes, as are lots of cross tied horses.


----------



## fburton (2 July 2015)

Is it usual to leave horses cross tied and unattended for long periods of time, even under normal circumstances? Or tied up in any way? I would never do this myself simply because I would want to be there to deal with a mishap (e.g. horse going loopy) promptly.


----------



## rara007 (2 July 2015)

Yes- Ours was cross tied for three months, we didn't watch her all that time! This was 19 years ago so before CCTV was easily available etc. Most horses who are cross tied are cross tied for long periods, at home not hospital, hence being left unattended for periods.


----------



## TBB (2 July 2015)

I could not be bothered to comment on the egos of those connected with the horse (both trainer and owner!), not LC who in my opinion was damned from the minute she got the horse, (what would have satisfied people? What level did he need to reach for people to be happy?). If the horse went hunting and got hurt you can imagine the press and facebook reactions. If the horse stayed at PNs then we'd have been listening to stories about him being in his box 23 hours a day during the winter etc, etc.

As for the accident, a mare of mine was being led across a yard and spooked at something and lost her hind legs on an icy surface and fell akwardly breaking her pelvis. She was put in cross ties and after a few days went down but with help was got to her feet but again went down a day or two later and this time she could not get up and was PTS. A pm showed 3 fractures to the pelvis and a newer neck problem (thought to have happened  when she went down in the cross ties). With horses anything can and does happen. Why can't people just accept that?
I do not know nor have ever met anyone involved.


----------



## Lanky Loll (2 July 2015)

When even gossip rags like PopB*tch are speculating though... 
"   >> Kauto stir <<
     RIP racing legend

   News of the sudden death of Kauto Star stunned racing fans this week. There was real sadness.
   Kauto Star had more personality than any horse we've ever seen. 
   His short and sad retirement made us feel much like when you see any sad celebrity demise.
   Think Peter Falk, Amy Winehouse, Farrah Fawcett. Perhaps, as fans, we feel complicit that we didn't try and save them from their unhappy fate. 

   Moved from his home for a shot at Olympic dressage; footage of his dressage trial showed what looked like a very unhappy horse.
   A mysterious injury dismissed as a minor incident, a race to the vet's days later with no-one told until after his death.

   It may just be as simple as "horse hurts himself", but if he was a Hollywood celebrity TV companies would be rushing to get the
   full story out.

More, at Racing Post: http://bit.ly/1IvlOen"


----------



## Illusion100 (2 July 2015)

Regarding the circumstances of the injuries and vet treatment, it saddens me that one of the greatest racers of his time met such a distressing end.

The way I see it is he's dead now, no longer suffering pain or enduring his new career that clearly didn't make him happy. No longer are egos coming before his best interests and those involved in his demise will have the consequences and their conscience to contend with.

I will always remember him as a racing legend who will always be amongst the titans. Kauto Star, it's been an honour and a privilege, RIP.


----------



## Bogmonster (2 July 2015)

If it's any small consolation to those who knew and/or loved him, he would have had the best of care once he was taken to Valley Equine. Our old chap has had two operations under GA there and I really can't fault the dedication of the surgeons and yard staff, despite him being more donkey than racehorse.

Desperately sad, but what is done is done and at least Kauto Star isn't suffering any more.


----------



## ycbm (2 July 2015)

I'm glad for the horse's sake that he is dead, though sorry for anyone who is upset about losing him.  A professional event yard where he wasn't even important in the sense of being prepared for sale, never mind competing, is no place for a racing superstar and national hero to have ended up. (Does anyone really believe that Laura herself was riding a prelim horse regularly?)   I'm glad for him, and us, that we won't have to watch his further decline into an ordinary, and from what we've seen unwilling, ROR dressage horse. Total PR fiasco. Thank goodness the horse himself is at peace now, bless him.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (2 July 2015)

We no longer cross tie our broken horses at the yard. Instead we box them in with bales of shavings - unopened. Essentially they have just over a foot of space around the sides and 3 feet behind so they can take a step back, pee etc but they can't turn around and they realise themselves that the space they are given will not allow them to lie down so they don't try. It save head collars rubs and they have constant access to some sort of forage whether it is hay, haylage, nets full of grass, big buckets of chaff etc. And water. One horse we had to make haynets out of chicken wire fencing as she would just eat the nylon ones. 

The horse who started off our practice of boxing in instead of tieing was one of the biggest piss takers on the planet. If you showed even the slightest bit of fear of him he would take it to the max. Teeth bared, nostrils flaring, snorting, stamping, tail swishig etc. The number of people that ran away from him was amazing! Phoney was truly awesome! I loved him! He trusted me and he only went for me once - when I gave him a mini chedder! Oh he didn't like that! I regularly shared my lunch with him as I would sit on top of his bales. He ate everything from chocolate to grapes to marmite sandwichs but a mini chedder nearly caused me to lose a leg lol! 

We do not.monitor them 24/7. You can't. Most horses settle quite well and aren't a bother once they realise what is going on. Towards the end of Phoneys 6 weeks he got bored and I found him one morning laying on  a muckle great big bed of shavings. He had torn apart and completely destroyed the best part of 40 bales of Bedmax! I think we took only 2 or 3 out mostly intact -  he'd had an absolute ball destroying the rest and had a proud as punch grin on his wee face when I found. He was king of his own wee castle! I do miss that horse! Unfortunately he didn't come through a 2nd round of box rest. The step in his pelvis never healed. His last 8 weeks were spent boxed in with the best view in the world, the best company I could give him, the best care I could give him. He went with a gleam in his eye, an amazing coat and when he was lead out of his box he gave us one last legendary rodeo show.


----------



## Fools Motto (2 July 2015)

ycbm said:



			I'm glad for the horse's sake that he is dead, though sorry for anyone who is upset about losing him.  A professional event yard where he wasn't even important in the sense of being prepared for sale, never mind competing, is no place for a racing superstar and national hero to have ended up. (Does anyone really believe that Laura herself was riding a prelim horse regularly?)   I'm glad for him, and us, that we won't have to watch his further decline into an ordinary, and from what we've seen unwilling, ROR dressage horse. Total PR fiasco. Thank goodness the horse himself is at peace now, bless him.
		
Click to expand...


You know what, I agree with this.
God Bless him, legend of the turf.


----------



## marmalade76 (2 July 2015)

ycbm said:



			I'm glad for the horse's sake that he is dead, though sorry for anyone who is upset about losing him.  A professional event yard where he wasn't even important in the sense of being prepared for sale, never mind competing, is no place for a racing superstar and national hero to have ended up. (Does anyone really believe that Laura herself was riding a prelim horse regularly?)   I'm glad for him, and us, that we won't have to watch his further decline into an ordinary, and from what we've seen unwilling, ROR dressage horse. Total PR fiasco. Thank goodness the horse himself is at peace now, bless him.
		
Click to expand...

Have to agree with you re the choice of yard, always thought it was an odd choice and a shame that he was in a yard where he'd never be number one. I also got the feeling that LC was not that bothered about him and she either didn't get how important he was to racing fans or resented it. Can't help feeling that she herself is probably not sorry to see the back of him.


----------



## ozpoz (2 July 2015)

ycbm said:



			I'm glad for the horse's sake that he is dead, though sorry for anyone who is upset about losing him.  A professional event yard where he wasn't even important in the sense of being prepared for sale, never mind competing, is no place for a racing superstar and national hero to have ended up. (Does anyone really believe that Laura herself was riding a prelim horse regularly?)   I'm glad for him, and us, that we won't have to watch his further decline into an ordinary, and from what we've seen unwilling, ROR dressage horse. Total PR fiasco. Thank goodness the horse himself is at peace now, bless him.
		
Click to expand...

yes, this sums up how I feel. 
He won his connections millions but didn't get a camera when he needed one? Not good enough for the best chaser since Arkle, who literally thrilled millions of racing fans.  
Watching him race was an absolute highlight of a long period of rehab I had - thank you Kauto Star, you were wonderful.


----------



## loobylu (2 July 2015)

It's not that unusual for a horse with a pelvic fracture to be kept at home rather than at a vet hospital so I'm not sure the fact that they kept him at home for a bit necessarily suggests anything untoward. Travelling them would be a sizeable risk. Two I've had dealings with were both at home,  tied up with a single rope, with round bales in box to pen them in. One recovered and has a career as a sports horse, the other didn't improve so was put down.


----------



## PolarSkye (2 July 2015)

silu said:



			There is now a very different account to that which was 1st issued about Kauto's last few days on The Racing Post website. I fail to understand why such a revered horse wasn't thoroughly  examined by the very best vets available immediately it was noticed he had a "graze on his flank" especially as  Laura Collett had no idea how he had acquired the injury. All us equine owners know that something which appears minor at the outset can quickly become major when the cause of an injury is not known. It is no wonder there are rumours flying about as to how his injury happened, when, intentionally or otherwise misleading accounts have been released.  I don't think we'll ever find out the whole truth as to how Kauto got injured, the fact remains  that this wonderful horse met a very sad end. I feel extremely privileged to have seen both Arkle and Kauto race in the flesh. It is regrettable that NH nowadays seems to attract a very different type of owner to the majority of those in years gone by.
		
Click to expand...

When mine fell over on the road out hunting, what presented was a massive haematoma behind his right "elbow," a skinned knee/carpal bone and a skinned stifle.  We had the vet meet us at back at the yard, she pumped him full of anti-inflammatories, we gave him anti-bios to be sure and he had two weeks off while the haematoma went down (it actually took only a week - but we gave him the extra week to be sure).  That was in early November.  He didn't show up lame with the resulting suspensory issue (a by-product of knocking a great lump out of his carpal bone) until the following April - and even then he was only just 2/10ths lame and that was intermittent.  In between he was sound as a pound.  

I know his injuries were very minor compared with KS - my only point is that vets can only see what's presented to them - and they don't generally x-ray and scan just for some minor scuffs.  Honest to God, Kali walked out of his stable the day after his injury as though nothing at all had happened to him - and didn't show a lame step until nearly five months later - when the regrowing bone had ossified and aggravated the ligament.  

I'm afraid I'm rather fed up of all the supposition and conjecture here . . . a wonderful, lovely, talented, beautiful racehorse was PTS following a tragic accident.  How and why he was injured isn't our business - no matter how famous or loved by the racing public he happened to be.  Clive Smith was his owner and HE chose to put him in the care of LC (whether some of the pundits like it or not).  Not our decision.  Not our horse.

P


----------



## AdorableAlice (2 July 2015)

RIP big lad, pity the 4 million pounds you earned did not stretch to putting up a few extra rails to stop you paddock hopping, if that is how you did actually hurt yourself.


----------



## anglo (3 July 2015)

Mooseontheloose said:



			And actually, it's none of our business. We don't own horsey superstars, any more than we own celebrities. We don't need to know everything. And we certainly don't need to make allegations, conjectures, suppositions, when no one can know everything, unless they are the ones directly involved. 
I'm impressed KS was considered worthy of main news on radio and tv, and saddened that he has died, but I don't need to know the 'inside story'.
		
Click to expand...

Well said mouseontheloose. Some of these critics need to put themselves in the shoes of the owner and LC, who both obviously thought a lot of this horse . How would you  feel if you had to deal with a situation like this with your horse and then got criticised for it . Regardless of the ins and outs I am convinced that the best that could be done for KS would have been done .


----------



## RunToEarth (3 July 2015)

anglo said:



			Well said mouseontheloose. Some of these critics need to put themselves in the shoes of the owner and LC, who both obviously thought a lot of this horse . How would you  feel if you had to deal with a situation like this with your horse and then got criticised for it . Regardless of the ins and outs I am convinced that the best that could be done for KS would have been done .
		
Click to expand...

If I were putting myself in the shoes of his owner and considering his previous form with KS, I suspect he is gutted he just lost his cashcow. Bloody awful way for a racing legend to go.


----------



## Alec Swan (3 July 2015)

RunToEarth said:



			If I were putting myself in the shoes of his owner and considering his previous form with KS, I suspect he is gutted he just lost his cashcow. Bloody awful way for a racing legend to go.
		
Click to expand...

I agree,  and for those who consider that the facts which surround the demise of KS are no concern of the general public,  the parallel would be those humans who place themselves in the public arena,  use the media to promote themselves,  and then complain about intrusion.  Fame has a price tag hanging from the hem and a most certain responsibility too.  

Alec.


----------



## skint1 (3 July 2015)

It's a very sad situation, I don't know any of the main players or the horse so can't speculate on whether he was happy or appreciated in his post racing life but I do hope he was because all horses deserve that much. I think though that on one level his having a post retirement career, whatever it was or should have been, did much to  benefit the cause of the ex racer generally and that was a good thing.  

I do however have personal experience of Valley Equine and vet Lawrence and I can't speak highly enough of them. My mare was not Kauto Star, but she was every bit as valuable to me as he was to his people and his many fans and I have no doubt he received the same high standard of care that she did, so in that regard I think people can be confident that where his veterinary care is concerned anyway,  his welfare was the paramount consideration at all times.


----------



## millikins (3 July 2015)

I haven't commented so far but think the shroud of secrecy since the incident occurred can do nothing except fuel speculation. For example, the latest report in H&H is; they suspect he went down twice in the cross ties on Sat, well that means they had reason to know he'd gone down once but remained unsupervised.


----------



## Freddie19 (3 July 2015)

ozpoz said:



			yes, this sums up how I feel. 
He won his connections millions but didn't get a camera when he needed one? Not good enough for the best chaser since Arkle, who literally thrilled millions of racing fans.  
Watching him race was an absolute highlight of a long period of rehab I had - thank you Kauto Star, you were wonderful.
		
Click to expand...

Would you horrible people stop it, read AP McCoys tribute  where he says how well KS looked and how happy he was, AP was at LC yard on a more than a regular basis, what do you really know? You are basing your horrible allegations on other peoples posts, for goodness sake a wonderful animal has died to early, why make the whole sad situation worse for the people who loved him.


----------



## Freddie19 (3 July 2015)

And by the way, I have lost beloved animals in field accidents and thro illness, it did not matter to me whether they where over the hill or in the prime of life We did what we could for them. Which is what I suspect was done for KS, thankfully my beloved horses and dogs were not supposed public property and I was not subjected to ill informed unjust inaccurate nasty comments, as they say what goes around comes around.


----------



## Emm (4 July 2015)

Wonder why he didn't have a horse body sling fitted, might of been able to stop him going down when x tied?  Maybe  the type of injury prevented one being fitted, not sure.

Emm.


----------



## silu (4 July 2015)

Nice tribute to Kauto on the Morning Line. While the conjecture and PR disaster will become distant memories and those involved pale into insignificance, those of Kauto and his magnificent performances will live on.


----------



## Supertrooper (4 July 2015)

To be honest I think it's nobody's business apart from those people connected with the horse xx


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (4 July 2015)

Supertrooper said:



			To be honest I think it's nobody's business apart from those people connected with the horse xx
		
Click to expand...

That would be correct if the owner had not made the horse public news. No other owner has made the headlines for all the wrong reasons, ever .
Laura was handed a poison chalice when sent the horse.............


----------



## minesadouble (4 July 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			That would be correct if the owner had not made the horse public news. No other owner has made the headlines for all the wrong reasons, ever .
Laura was handed a poison chalice when sent the horse.............
		
Click to expand...

The horse made himself public news, this would have happened whether Clive Smith or Joe Bloggs owned him! I don't understand why people seem to think that his owner should have had no say in his future upon retirement. Paul Nicholls didn't train him for the love of it,  Clive Smith paid him to do so. His horse, his choice!


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (4 July 2015)

minesadouble said:



			The horse made himself public news, this would have happened whether Clive Smith or Joe Bloggs owned him! I don't understand why people seem to think that his owner should have had no say in his future upon retirement. Paul Nicholls didn't train him for the love of it,  Clive Smith paid him to do so. His horse, his choice!
		
Click to expand...

Of course it is his choice, every decision was ultimately his choice, however owners do not often make good trainers, which is why they pay someone to do so, because the trainer is a professional. The racing community is a tight knit bunch who welcome owners, big or small,  and give them the benefit of their experience and try to make their experience a happy one, having a winner is a bonus. The trainer guided owner and horse for seven years, there was no reason to suddenly disregard his advice when the career was over, and falliing out publicy was not good for anyone.
There have been instances where owners with a good horse have scuppered that horse's career due to their pig headedness, and instances when trainers would rather not train for someone, it does happen, not infrequently.
It's not a business where the customer pays and the goods are delivered, its a businesss where the client is welcomed for breakfast, dinner and tea, meets the family, joins after work for a party, its not usually a normal business relationship.


----------



## Alec Swan (4 July 2015)

I greatly enjoyed the moving tribute which was written and beautifully presented by Alistair Down.  His interviewer touched on pertinent questions at the end of the interview,  the response being that once in the public eye then those who followed the great horse,  were entitled to an understanding.  That was the point when the interview was curtailed!

As another has said on here,  there's little point in going round in circles.  It's better to remember the horse as he was,  put behind us the times since his retirement,  and live in the hope that others may learn a lesson.

Alec.


----------



## Irish gal (4 July 2015)

It wouldn't have been the first time the owner of a great race horse ignored his trainers advice to the detriment of the poor horse. Take Dawn Run, the most successful mare in the history of National Hunt. Having gone from hurdling to chasing - winning both the Champion Hurdle and the Gold Cup - her owner decided she should switch back to hurdles. Her life long trainer Paddy Mullins disagreed and felt it wouldn't work. 

The owner was obstinate and sent her to France for the Champion Hurdle. She misjudged a fence and broke her neck and all Paddy Mullins could do was to be with her and pray for her as she was shot. Her stable stood empty afterwards in his yard as he couldn't bear to see another horse in it, and I think it was a very long time before he got over it.

It must be the biggest downside of training horses, to see things go wrong and horses hurt and destroyed because owners won't listen. Especially horses like Dawn Run and Kauto Star where so much effort has been put into them and they are so greatly loved.


----------



## minesadouble (4 July 2015)

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Kauto Star and Dawn run both fell victim to tragic ACCIDENTS. No one intended to cause them any harm. They both had a better life than many, many racehorses.
I think we should celebrate the life of Kauto Star and save our sympathy for those racehorses who give their all despite not being terribly talented then go for slaughter as relative babies, or spend the remainder of their lives being passed from pillar to post, ending up with inexperienced owners who have no idea how to ride or care for them.


----------



## Irish gal (4 July 2015)

It's not hindsight, in both cases the owners were forewarned by the trainer that their plan was not in the horse's best interests. In both cases they chose to ignore the advice with tragic consequences. Dawn Run died in an accident, sure, but her trainer had warned that she should not go back hurdling as the transition was not likely to work which could then lead to an accident - which is exactly what happened.

Agree that all the racehorses sent to slaughter is a terrible waste and a shame.


----------



## KautoStar1 (4 July 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			I greatly enjoyed the moving tribute which was written and beautifully presented by Alistair Down.  His interviewer touched on pertinent questions at the end of the interview,  the response being that once in the public eye then those who followed the great horse,  were entitled to an understanding.  That was the point when the interview was curtailed!

As another has said on here,  there's little point in going round in circles.  It's better to remember the horse as he was,  put behind us the times since his retirement,  and live in the hope that others may learn a lesson.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...


It was the most wonderful tribute done only in the way AD can do, the master of the written & spoken word.  It brought a tear to my eye and a smile to my face.  I still love the shots of the 4 Ditcheat greats on top of Cleeve Hill 

And I had forgotten just how good his 2006/7 season was. Unbeaten over all the championship distances.  

What a wonderful horse.  For a horse I never knew personally I can honestly say I will miss him terribly.


----------



## madmav (4 July 2015)

Like everyone, I am so sad by Kauto Star's death. He was the most thrillingly exciting horse to watch. But he did have some crashing falls in his career. It is just possible that he had niggling injuries that were just waiting to become life-threatening ones after a stupid field/fall/whatever it was accident.
He jumped like a cat. Maybe he just used up too many lives.
The aftermath of his death has been mismanaged. But cut them some slack. Laura is 24! Don't think I'd have managed as well at her age. Owner should know better. So perhaps he deserves more of the wrath.


----------

