# Jean Luc Cornill & Chazot ADD OPINIONS HERE,NOT MICHEN'S TREA



## npage123 (28 August 2015)

I'm starting this tread as it transpired that there were many people on here that had strong opinions on the way that Jean Luc Cornill started and strainging and proceeds with Chazot's training.

So I'm hoping everyone will now comment on THIS threat rahter on Michen's, as it wasn't an appropriate place to talk about Chazot on MIchen's thread.

So feel free - anyone of those who would still like to further critisize Jean Luc Cornill.

I personally wouldn't criticise him one bit as I'not as quick to judge, and not the expert that a lot of people on here seems to be.  I'm reading though loads and loads of Cornill's scientific information at the moment (which is not ease to understand in my little brain) before I'll have a clearer picture of what I'm hoping, at the end of it, will call one of the great horsemen of our time.


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## tallyho! (28 August 2015)

npage123 said:



			I'm starting this tread as it transpired that there were many people on here that had strong opinions on the way that Jean Luc Cornill started and strainging and proceeds with Chazot's training.

So I'm hoping everyone will now comment on THIS threat rahter on Michen's, as it wasn't an appropriate place to talk about Chazot on MIchen's thread.

So feel free - anyone of those who would still like to further critisize Jean Luc Cornill.

I personally wouldn't criticise him one bit as I'not as quick to judge, and not the expert that a lot of people on here seems to be.  I'm reading though loads and loads of Cornill's scientific information at the moment (which is not ease to understand in my little brain) before I'll have a clearer picture of what I'm hoping, at the end of it, will call one of the great horsemen of our time.
		
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I totally agree and indeed thought about starting a new thread myself. I couldn't believe Chazot would appear on such a thread... there was no relevance that I could see whatsoever.


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## ycbm (28 August 2015)

in the video which was pointed to on the other thread, I saw a horse in real pain who should not have had a rider on his back. If work was required to sort his issues, then I think that it should at that point in time have been unridden work. I find it a *very* disturbing video to watch.  The man is clearly a great rider, but I don't agree with what he is doing on that particular video, even if the horse turned out well in the end.


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## npage123 (28 August 2015)

I agree that a horse with physical inadqaucies / pain etc should ideally not be ridden, but considering the extrodinary lenghts that Jean Luc Cornille goes through to diagnosis problems with his horses,and adapting the rehabilitation proicess accordingly, a short screen shot online should only be seen as a glimpse in the whole of the rehabilitation process.  It isn't clear which video clip you are referring to, but there's no point on judging the horse's way of going and rider's skill without knowing the bigger picture.

Don't know if you've taken some time to read up on him online?

This is an exctract from him homepage on his website Sience In Motion (that name alone gives the impression that they do take things seriously)

"The Science of Motion is a new approach to therapy, which, instead of treating the pathological changes, (the damages) is addressing the kinematics abnormalities causing the pathological changes. It would seem at first that the approach would be essentially preventive, but the successes of the therapeutic approach into fields where other therapies were ineffective underline the capacity of the horse&#8217;s physique to heal efficiently or, as it is the case with kissing spine, to live with the problem, as long as the source of the abnormal stress has been corrected.

Every horse moves differently and since none move perfectly, especially with a rider on their back, even minor defects in gait can eventually result in lameness. As with human athletes, careful analysis of how a horse moves and the use of an individualized training program can both enhance performance and rehabilitate injuries, including those resulting in chronic lamenesses. The Science of Motion is a new approach to training and therapy, which is based upon identifying and correcting the specific gait abnormalities inherent in each horse. This approach was developed by Jean Luc Cornille, an international level Three-Day Event rider and trainer, who has extensively studied equine movement. His skill, experience and research has allowed him to perfect methods that can be used to correct the imperfections of gait that inhibit a horse from reaching its full athletic potential and often lead to lameness. The approach developed as the Science of Motion has been successfully utilized to rehabilitate many different chronic disabilities including severe cases of navicular disease and kissing spine."

As I said before, they are friendly friendly people and would happily answer your questions/comments via their website of via facebook.

I do understand YCBM that you're main concern is with the horse's welfare and that you don't want him to be in pain.  The little that I know so far about this trainer is that he is trying to point out that horses at the highest level of competition is trying their best as asked by their rider, but they are in pain for one reason or another, and he's addressing these issues as much as possible.


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## SpringArising (28 August 2015)

npage123 said:



			I personally wouldn't criticise him one bit as I'not as quick to judge
		
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Surely if you don't want to criticise him don't start a thread with the specific intent of allowing people to criticise him?

+ Maybe he was in pain and maybe he wasn't. You can't make that diagnosis from watching one rear. I've have lots of horses who would have been "in pain" every ten minutes given some of their behaviours. Some horses just DO, because they can. Not everything is about pain.


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## ycbm (28 August 2015)

I do understand YCBM that you're main concern is with the horse's welfare and that you don't want him to be in pain. The little that I know so far about this trainer is that he is trying to point out that horses at the highest level of competition is trying their best as asked by their rider, but they are in pain for one reason or another, and he's addressing these issues as much as possible
		
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I haven't read up on the rider and maybe I ought to, but if I am reading you right, their training consists of finding ways to get horses to work on in spite of being in pain. That's certainly what I see in the video of Chazot rearing, and I find it very uncomfortable to watch. If horses at the highest level are in pain, then shouldn't we stop riding them at the highest level, not train them that they work on because they can't escape it? 

I'm just off now to check if they have a website, I don't do Facebook.


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## ester (28 August 2015)

website 

http://www.scienceofmotion.com/


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## ycbm (28 August 2015)

ester said:



			website 

http://www.scienceofmotion.com/

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Thanks Ester. I've had a brief read and clearly the man has some very good ideas. That doesn't, however, make him incapable of making mistakes, and it doesn't change my view that he is not right to be riding Chazot in the video of him rearing multiple times. I also find it a bit odd to produce videos claiming that his approach cures kissing spines featuring a horse with only one back lesion (which is not common, ime) and  navicular, which we all know can be cured in most horses by removing the shoes and a program of foot conditioning work. And I wonder what on earth the body workers of the  show jumper were playing at not to realise that pain was causing the horse to refuse to jump longer and lower over water.

Unfortunately, I don't feel motivated enough by what I've seen so far to spend fifty dollars per video finding out what his explanations are.


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## npage123 (28 August 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Surely if you don't want to criticise him don't start a thread with the specific intent of allowing people to criticise him?

+ Maybe he was in pain and maybe he wasn't. You can't make that diagnosis from watching one rear. I've have lots of horses who would have been "in pain" every ten minutes given some of their behaviours. Some horses just DO, because they can. Not everything is about pain.
		
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This was my full reply at number 314 on the previous Michen tread, when I was responding to a message from Speedyfluff, which you've quoted only a small phrase from.

Speedyfluff - I also thought there was something not quite right with the horse's off hind. I think he's an 18h TB ex-racehorse being retrained. At some point he had 4 months off due to abcesses in 3 different hooves, and during that time off he became very stiff all over - whether this happened recently and the stiffness is still there and showing in the hindlegs, I don't know. I see what you mean about the horse's way of going and I do agree the horse doesn't look comfortable and well rounded in his way of going, but I don't feel knowledgeable enough to comment on this person's riding/handling of the horse. I'm at the moment trying to learn more about the rider's training principles and the horse's background, and this may shed some light on why the horse is going the way he is. Regarding him not wearing a riding hat, my take on that is the person's background and current riding work is in a part of the world where it's not the norm to wear a hat, regardless of what horse you're going to ride or what style.

The absolutely last thing that I intended with providing video links on Jean Luc Cornill and Chazot, was for people on here to critisize them.  I apologise if that was not clear in the sentence where I have said what you quoted "I personally wouldn't criticise him one bit as I'm not as quick as juick to judge'.  I'm not as quick to judge as I know my own limitations when it comes to when it comes to certain aspects of horses, being rehabilitation, breeding, reschooling, etc.)

What I was trying to say all along is that Chazot is another tricky horse, but he has trainers/owners who are doing the best they can for the horse, and there are plenty of info available him online. INCLUDING if you feel to ask him questions or challenge his way of training, get in contact with him rather than slating him on a public forum.

Take that lovely video of the girl taking her horse for a dressage test which had quite a few hiccups, and then in the shame video showing her and the horse doing GP.  If only the 1st section was posted on here, I'm sure there would have been a lot of nasty comments, amongst the kind and encouraging comments.  We really do something need to look at the better bigger and not be so quick to judge.

Fair enough, once you've researched Jean Luc Cornill and have your facts, then no-one will tell you that you're wrong to dismiss his training methods.

Lastly, can I just say that an to time was my intention to start any arguments with anyone, and sorry if it had come across like that.


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## npage123 (28 August 2015)

One thing that I really do not understand is where is saying that 'long and low', my interpretation at the start and end of the training session during warm-up and cool-up, is in fact not relaxing to the horse and not stretching them over the neck?

He has made available some videos and diagrammes and things but I really find it hard to get to the bottom of it.


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## Goldenstar (28 August 2015)

There is or should I saw was because it's pretty well debunked now a school of thought that said allowing horses to work long and low had no benefit and in fact was to the detriment of the training .
I know from my experience using working long and low correctly as part of the training is very good for horses .
For me you only have to feel a trained horse 'asking' for the stretch after a hard piece of work or a young one suddenly 'find ' it's rhythm as it finds how to take the rein forward to know how much they appreciate it .


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## Goldenstar (28 August 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Surely if you don't want to criticise him don't start a thread with the specific intent of allowing people to criticise him?

+ Maybe he was in pain and maybe he wasn't. You can't make that diagnosis from watching one rear. I've have lots of horses who would have been "in pain" every ten minutes given some of their behaviours. Some horses just DO, because they can. Not everything is about pain.
		
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I was not looking at the rear I was looking at the way of going .


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## tallyho! (28 August 2015)

ycbm said:



			I haven't read up on the rider and maybe I ought to, but if I am reading you right, their training consists of finding ways to get horses to work on in spite of being in pain. That's certainly what I see in the video of Chazot rearing, and I find it very uncomfortable to watch. If horses at the highest level are in pain, then shouldn't we stop riding them at the highest level, not train them that they work on because they can't escape it? 

I'm just off now to check if they have a website, I don't do Facebook.
		
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I think that when you understand that the horse was already rearing in his racing career with his jockeys and grooms, you will realise why he rears. Yes, it could be pain, but with Chazot it was more psychological. It was a bad habit and he was going to be put down. He was sent to JLC to see if he could do anything. 

It is definitely not comfortable to watch... the horse is quite clearly demonstrating his displeasure for whatever reason - all of which was taken into account when JLC undertook the rehab. So, instead of putting him down, they realised his talent and decided to work through his many physical and mental issues.

If a horse is in pain due to muscular issues, the best thing to do is physiotherapy and build strength.

In kissing spine cases, the main cause is the lack of elastic strong muscle that lifts the ribcage and separates the spine due to poor development of muscle, lack of core strength, poor training as a young horse allowing excessive dipping (for the conformation of the horse, not every case is a swayback and not every swayback has kissing spines).... and so, despite the issue, building the essential core strength and muscle bulk is the only way to allow the spine to function properly again. Which is the rehab is so long, but possible and the horse is better muscled afterwards.

Chazot is not working at any level. He was retired but JLC thought the only way to stop him from being in pain is to build muscle... physiotherapy, in hand and ridden. He could not be ridden "normally" at first as you saw in the video but he had to be ridden at some point. It was a slow process. As is every rehab. One video does not prove that the horse is ridden daily, hourly etc in that manner. 

My horse has SI issues... but MUST exercise. She MUST train and build those essential abdominal muscles before I can get back on. Soon, I will get back on and continue to work her properly to rebuild the essential muscles needed for riding... she was not blessed with a conformationally excellent back, but is far from being written off. We just have to recognise that certain conformations need certain types of exercise in order to carry a rider, without pain in the future.

p.s. I find it hard to follow his philosophy word for word but I understand where he is coming from and as someone who likes to ride classically rather than modern, it resonates with me.


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## npage123 (28 August 2015)

For those who are interested, this article is available on his website (Scienceofmotion) 

Stretching the Neck, Fairytale or Reality
                                                             Men willingly believe what they wish. (Gaius Julius Caesar)
Caesars thought applies to the lowering of the neck. The horses neck, stretching out to reach the bit, is a perception commonly associated with the lowering of the neck but the concept is in opposition of the muscular work actually achieved by the upper neck muscles when the neck is lowered. Creating a functional horse, athletically ready to perform, should definitively be the aim of all training techniques. However, appropriate body coordination does not result from metaphors that envision the stretching or telescopic action of the neck. These theories are fairytales. They mean well, in the sense that they wish to create a horses physique that functions effortlessly, but they are theorizing that the neck muscles work in a fashion that does not even come close to reality.

The wishing of good things for the horse is a great emotion but when the relationship with the horse is based on athletic performance a sound understanding of how the horse truly functions, and for this article specifically how muscles of the upper neck work, is a prerequisite. The main upper neck muscles are the splenius and semispinalis capitis. Both muscles are involved in the lifting of the neck and the resistance to its lowering. The head and neck weigh-in at approximately 10% of the horses body mass. This is a significant burden that is submitted to the attraction of gravity. Without the resistance of the upper neck muscles, the horses head would hang down only as far as the limit of compliance of the nuchal ligament. This is what happens when a horse is under sedation; when the upper neck muscles no longer resist the attraction of gravity the nuchal ligament takes over the support. At its maximum elastic compliance, the nuchal ligament keeps the horse head a few inches above the ground. This is why horses separate their front legs to graze; so they can reach the ground.
Looking at the muscles basic architecture, the lack of single contractile units spanning from origin to insertion contradicts the theory that an action exerted at one end of the muscles would be transmitted to the other end. This simplistic thinking often directs equestrian theories such as those that believe the lowering of the neck elongates the back muscles. Inside the muscles body, cells are producing forces that are transmitted to other cells via connective tissues and so on. Muscle cells can create simultaneous forces acting in different directions. Connective tissues are also arranged within the muscle, to permit simultaneous multiple tasks. Connective tissue division can facilitate neuromuscular compartmentalization for differential function along a long muscle. (1)

The morphology of the semispinalis capitis muscle implies different functions between its dorsal and ventral region. The muscle does have a strong central tendon within its body, which divides between the dorsal region situated above the tendon, and the ventral region situated below the tendon. This type of different architecture between the dorsal and ventral part of the same muscle is often seen when the function of the muscle cells is to enhance the tension of the central tendon. When the neck is lowered, the central tendon stretches and the muscle cells work to increase the central tendons elastic resistance. One needs to remember that the horses head weighs about 10% of the horses body mass. As the neck lowers, upper neck muscles, tendons and ligaments resist the burden of the head as it is pulled down by the attraction of gravity.

A very simple experiment can be made, which requires a large bucket full of water, a broom and two bungee cords. The weight of the water bucket illustrates the weight of the horses head. The handle of the broom represents the column of the cervical vertebrae. One bungee cord represents the upper neck muscles. The other bungee cord is used to attach the water bucket on the tip of the broom handle. You attach one end of the bungee cord on the tip of the broom handle and hold the other end in your right or left hand. The bungee cord illustrates the central tendon of the semispinalis capitis and your arm acts like the muscles cells and connective tissues of the semispinalis capitis muscle. You block the base of the broom with your foot and pull on the bungee cord to lift the upper end of the broom and the water bucket. Doing so, your arm is working as the horses upper neck splenius muscles work, as well as the dorsal element of the semispinalis capitis when they lift the horses neck. Then you lower the horses head, which in the experiment is the water bucket. According to the stretching theories, your arm should be stretching. Of course, it is not. You are pulling hard on the bungee cord otherwise the water bucket would crash onto the ground. So you are doing the work of the horses upper neck muscles. The lower you place the water bucket, the heavier is the pull on the central tendon, the bungee cord, and the stronger is the work of the muscle cells, which in the experiment are your arms muscles.

The thought that the horses neck telescopes out of the shoulders, stretches and reaches is wishful thinking to say the least. Even as a metaphor, the thought induces totally false ideas. The problem is that a horse does not perform as a fictitious model. Athletic achievements involve muscles, tendons, ligaments, fascia, central pattern generators, and nervous circuits. If the body coordination matches the riders fantasy but is unrelated to the horses physiology, the horse performs below his potential until lameness shortens his career. Lameness is not the only expression of physical pain, anticipation of a given movement or, more generally, anticipation of entering the show ring, worry, nervousness, gait abnormalities, frustration, anger, shutting off, and many other behaviors are expressions of pain.
The question might be; but why then does the horse lower the neck spontaneously after work? The response is simple. The horse eases the work of the upper neck muscles using the elastic resistance of the nuchal ligament. The nuchal ligament is inserted on the dorsal spines of the first through fourth thoracic vertebrae. At the other end, the funicular element of the nuchal ligament is attached on the skull. The nuchal ligament is not under tension when the neck is held in an alert position but does, in fact, come under tension when the horse lowers the neck. The nuchal ligament, which can be compared to a strong bungee cord, elongates assisting the upper neck muscles in their task of supporting the head and neck. The nuchal ligament replaces 55% or more of the work of the upper neck muscles at the walk. At the trot and canter, the assistance of the nuchal ligament replaces between 32 to 34% of the work of the upper neck muscles. As the horse lowers the neck, the tension of the nuchal ligament increases and the work of the upper neck muscles decreases. This is not stretching; this is simply easing the work of the upper neck muscles.

The thought that the lowering of the neck does increases the range of motion of the horses thoracolumbar spine is also inaccurate. Measurements have been made recording loss and gains in vertebral mobility when the neck is lowered. The experiment involved five specimens. All the five specimens gained vertebral mobility between T6 and T9 when the neck was lowered. T6 and T9 is the front part of the withers. Such gain of mobility is mainly due to the fact that the supraspinous ligament, which is the continuation over the tip of the dorsal spines of the nuchal ligament, is still somewhat elastic until T9. One of the five specimens lost mobility between T9 and T14 when the neck was lowered. The other four specimens did not gain vertebral mobility in the same area, associated with the lowering of the neck. Another specimen lost vertebral mobility between T14 and T18 when the neck was lowered. The other specimens did not gain mobility in this specific area when the neck was lowered. All the specimens lost vertebral mobility in the lumbar vertebrae. The five specimens gained mobility in the lumbosacral junction. This was explained in a previous publication and is the reason why uneducated observations lead to the belief that the lumbar vertebrae flex when the neck is lowered.
PART 2 CONTINUES


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## npage123 (28 August 2015)

PART 2 CONTINUED (REFERS TO POST #14)

During the 19th century, the Prussian cavalry promoted total elevation of the horse&#8217;s neck. The thought behind the theory was about improving the horse&#8217;s balance. The experiment lasted several decades and was then abandoned completely. My guess is that injuries reached an epidemic level and even the greatest supporters had to reconsider. In contrast, Paul Plinzner, who was the Emperor&#8217;s riding master lowered and over-flexed his horses&#8217; neck completely. This was the end of the 19th century. Since then, the horse&#8217;s poll has either been held at the highest point of the neck, or at lowest point of the neck. Whatever the fashion of the time was; going back and forth between both positions due to lack of proof of either being correct. Contemporary to Splinzner, François Baucher promoted the total elevation of the neck. Later Jacques Licart emphasized the extension of the neck. The French author had his mind set on stretching and referred to the lowering of the neck as an extension. In fact, technically, the lowering of the neck is a flexion. The total elevation of the neck is an extension. More recently, Harry Bolt warned against working the horse&#8217;s neck too deep, and so on. The common denominator behind these contradictory theories is that they are based on little science and very large imagination. The other similarity is that while they are promoting diametrically opposed approaches, both theories pretend to engage the horse&#8217;s back as well as the hind legs.
The truth is that the effects attributed to the lowering of the neck cannot be achieved by acting on the neck. Neck postures are convenient short cuts promising results that are in fact the outcome of precise coordination of the horse&#8217;s physique, starting with the decelerating and propulsive activity of the hind legs and continuing with the capacity of the back muscles to convert the thrust generated by the hind legs into horizontal forces, forward movement, and vertical forces, resisting attraction of gravity and therefore balance control. Proper vertebral column mechanism allows the forelegs to propel the horse&#8217;s body upward and forward. The horse is then placing and using the neck to further enhance balance control and quality and accuracy of the limbs kinematics. Pretending that such efficient coordination can result from the lowering of the neck is fiction. The problem is that fiction does not prepare efficiently the horse&#8217;s physique for the athletic demand of the performance.
Jean Luc Cornille

References:- (Morphology, Histochemistry, and Function of Epaxial Cervical Musculature in the Horse. K. S. Gellman, J. E. A. Bertram, and J. W. Hermanson, Journal of Morphology 251: 182-194, 2002)
000838429
Quote taken from www.scienceofmotion/stretching_the_neck.html


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## npage123 (28 August 2015)

I've posted that above in the hope that anyone can shed some light on whether he said stretching the horse's head and neck post-exercise is not advisable?


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## ycbm (28 August 2015)

In kissing spine cases, the main cause is the lack of elastic strong muscle that lifts the ribcage and separates the spine due to poor development of muscle, lack of core strength, poor training as a young horse allowing excessive dipping (for the conformation of the horse, not every case is a swayback and not every swayback has kissing spines).... and so, despite the issue, building the essential core strength and muscle bulk is the only way to allow the spine to function properly again. Which is why the rehab is so long, but possible and the horse is better muscled afterwards.
		
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That's pretty simplistic. There are horses with them at three years of age that refuse ever to be sat on. I'm sure the vets who are specialised in treating kissing spines wouldn't agree that the condition is as simple as you describe. And I don't believe that a video focusing on resolving the problems of one horse with only one clashing process, when most seem to have at least three and many five or six, is any kind of proof that all kissing spine can be resolved if only people knew how to train horses properly.

Regarding Chazot rearing since he was young, then I'd guess that he's been in pain since he was young. I'd want to have seen head to toe x rays and scans and a stomach scope before you could convince me that that stiff, short striding horse with the flicking ears and stressed face was not in significant  pain being made worse by being ridden, which then caused him to rear.  Of course the video might explain what checks had been done, but from what I've seen I'm not interested in paying fifty dollars to see it.


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## ycbm (28 August 2015)

npage123 said:



			I've posted that above in the hope that anyone can shed some light on whether he said stretching the horse's head and neck post-exercise is not advisable?
		
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He says that on five horses he tested, it has no loosening effect on the back vertebrae, but it does have an effect in loosening the end of the back/sacroiliac region. He doesn't make any comment, as far as I can see, about whether that is advisable or not.

The problem I have with the article is that it takes no account of riding by feel. Surely a good trainer can _ feel_ whether a horse is relaxed or not?  I'm no expert, and I can.

Secondly, it's all very well for him to quibble at people referring to stretching the neck as physically impossible, but the fact is that in free walk on a long rein, the horse's nose is, or should be,  way out in front of where it is in medium walk, and it seems perfectly reasonable to me to describe that as stretching out.

Bamboozling people with science so they can't understand him, and things like that really put me of wanting to know any more about him.


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## tallyho! (28 August 2015)

ycbm said:



			That's pretty simplistic. There are horses with them at three years of age that refuse ever to be sat on. I'm sure the vets who are specialised in treating kissing spines wouldn't agree that the condition is as simple as you describe. And I don't believe that a video focusing on resolving the problems of one horse with only one clashing process, when most seem to have at least three and many five or six, is any kind of proof that all kissing spine can be resolved if only people knew how to train horses properly.

Regarding Chazot rearing since he was young, then I'd guess that he's been in pain since he was young. I'd want to have seen head to toe x rays and scans and a stomach scope before you could convince me that that stiff, short striding horse with the flicking ears and stressed face was not in significant  pain being made worse by being ridden, which then caused him to rear.  Of course the video might explain what checks had been done, but from what I've seen I'm not interested in paying fifty dollars to see it.
		
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You're right it's not as simple and in fact only one cause which vets treat and mostly successfully if the rehab is followed. What I stated was one of the more simplistic views vets have on what the causes are. I have over simplified it as I don't have the inclination to write reams on it. Correct training CAN and DOES fix and eliminate the problem for MANY horses.

http://www.cottsequine.co.uk/equine...eries/standing-kissing-spines-operation.shtml

How young do you think he was when he started rearing? Where did you get that? He was rearing when he was racing. Due to bad treatment. Have you bothered to look at any of the other youtube videos of him actually being rehabbed? When he was "better"?


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## ycbm (28 August 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Have you bothered to look at any of the other youtube videos of him actually being rehabbed? When he was "better"?
		
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No. I can beat and starve a  horse into making it load into a lorry, but the fact that I can show you video of the horse leading really well later does not make how the end result was achieved acceptable.  In the rearing video, the horse looks to me and other posters to be in serious pain. I add-on not interested in watching any more of his training.


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## ycbm (28 August 2015)

tallyho! said:



			You're right it's not as simple and in fact only one cause which vets treat and mostly successfully if the rehab is followed. What I stated was one of the more simplistic views vets have on what the causes are. I have over simplified it as I don't have the inclination to write reams on it. Correct training CAN and DOES fix and eliminate the problem for MANY horses.

http://www.cottsequine.co.uk/equine...eries/standing-kissing-spines-operation.shtml

How young d
		
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Quite. As Cotts, who pioneered the ligament snip operation point out, there is nothing special in what Cornill does in rehabbing kissing spines through training, other people also do it all the time.


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## npage123 (28 August 2015)

Thank you for posting your opinions and explanations.

I think I'll just continue my leisurely walks on my semi-retired boy, on as long a rein as he aksks for.  There's nothing he likes more than being on sniff along the ground, having a free rein to the buckle, munching on a bit of herbs, shrubs and foliage and occasionally a deep drink and splash/play in the woodland puddles, so I'll do more of that.


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## tallyho! (28 August 2015)

ycbm said:



			No. I can beat and starve a  horse into making it load into a lorry, but the fact that I can show you video of the horse leading really well later does not make how the end result was achieved acceptable.  In the rearing video, the horse looks to me and other posters to be in serious pain. I add-on not interested in watching any more of his training.
		
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The horse WAS in pain mentally and physically. That was the point of working him in hand and ridden at various points during his rehabilitation. It's rehabilitation.

Which is why there was no point in bringing it up on Michen's thread. There was no relevance as you can't prove Miche's horse was the same. Chazot was under vets care along the way.

By the way his "methods" is just classical training. Loads of people train like that. There's nothing special about it apart from the whole biomechanics aspect that he is so interested in and no-one actually philosophises about it to the extent that he does! I for one cannot quite grasp all his science speak, but I can understand from a physiological perspective. I can remember feeling the same way about it when I first saw it. You're not the only one who dismisses JLC without understanding. Many of his peers criticise him.


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## tallyho! (28 August 2015)

ycbm said:



			Quite. As Cotts, who pioneered the ligament snip operation point out, there is nothing special in what Cornill does in rehabbing kissing spines through training, other people also do it all the time.
		
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Exactly. So what?


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## ycbm (28 August 2015)

tallyho! said:



			The horse WAS in pain mentally and physically. That was the point of working him in hand and ridden at various points during his rehabilitation. It's rehabilitation.

Which is why there was no point in bringing it up on Michen's thread. There was no relevance as you can't prove Miche's horse was the same. Chazot was under vets care along the way.

By the way his "methods" is just classical training. Loads of people train like that. There's nothing special about it apart from the whole biomechanics aspect that he is so interested in and no-one actually philosophises about it to the extent that he does! I for one cannot quite grasp all his science speak, but I can understand from a physiological perspective. I can remember feeling the same way about it when I first saw it. You're not the only one who dismisses JLC without understanding. Many of his peers criticise him.
		
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Please do not write as if I brought this up on Michens thread and made comparisons with Michens horse.  I didn't.


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## ester (28 August 2015)

As someone used to reading sciencey stuff I don't like his style of writing and am not entirely convinced about his self-styling as the 'science of motion'. Anyone who considers a sample size of 5 shows anything is well, pretty unscientific. He also seems to completely miss the point that horses spend most of their time grazing, so having the nuchal ligament at it's extreme of tension is it's 'normal'.


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## Barnacle (28 August 2015)

I haven't read this entire thread and I've not looked into this man in great detail (watched that one video and some other clips of him riding the same horse when it was rearing in slow motion). From the quote off this guy's website on the first page, I get the implication that this guy "researches" movement (also from the fact he's called this "science of motion" though, nothing else quoted suggests to me there's an iota of science involved)... So, since I'm being lazy, does this guy actually do any research/have peer-reviewed papers out? Or are we talking pretend-science gibberish?


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## Goldenstar (28 August 2015)

Anybody can call anything science it does not mean it's science .


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## npage123 (28 August 2015)

On his website there are plenty of short extracts avail on his articles/books/dvd's, which definitely includes some science, but bear in mind it's not the full versions of his is studies

http://www.scienceofmotion.com/biomechanics_of_lameness.html

http://www.scienceofmotion.com/equine_back_research.html

http://www.scienceofmotion.com/sacroiliac_strain.html


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## Goldenstar (29 August 2015)

Horses graze , having their heads down is completely natural to them.


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## tallyho! (29 August 2015)

ycbm said:



			Please do not write as if I brought this up on Michens thread and made comparisons with Michens horse.  I didn't.
		
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I did not write as if you did. I know you didn't. I'm not sure why you feel you have to be so rude towards me. All I'm doing is trying to explain.


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## tallyho! (29 August 2015)

Barnacle said:



			I haven't read this entire thread and I've not looked into this man in great detail (watched that one video and some other clips of him riding the same horse when it was rearing in slow motion). From the quote off this guy's website on the first page, I get the implication that this guy "researches" movement (also from the fact he's called this "science of motion" though, nothing else quoted suggests to me there's an iota of science involved)... So, since I'm being lazy, does this guy actually do any research/have peer-reviewed papers out? Or are we talking pretend-science gibberish?
		
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I've no idea  I find it all so hard to read and follow! I get the general gist of it but that's it. Some of it resonates with Klimke and Hauschmann but different words are used. I find his writing quite rude sometimes actually but I try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater...


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## ycbm (29 August 2015)

tallyho! said:



			I did not write . I know you didn't. I'm not sure why you feel you have to be so rude towards me. All I'm doing is trying to explain.
		
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I'm sorry you felt I was being rude, but you did say 'there was no relevance as you can't prove Michen's horse was the same'  and readers have no way of knowing that you didn't mean me.

I don't dislike you, Tallyho, but I really dislike trainers who big themselves up by writing in a way that ordinary people can't understand, and this guy is an absolute master at it. A good trainer should be able to explain things so that ordinary people should be able to understand him, imo.

I accept that I may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but there are plenty of other babies out there who I can understand and who don't want me to pay fifty dollars to watch him ride a horse I'd, rather not see ridden. Yes, I am fixated on how much money this guy wants   He strikes me very much as being in the Parelli mould 

I knew there was something not right about his explanation about stretching the horse's neck, but I couldn't put my finger on it. So thanks to the people who pointed out that grazing is sixteen hours out of twenty four in a normal horse life   I felt a right fool when I read that


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## tallyho! (29 August 2015)

ycbm said:



			I'm sorry you felt I was being rude, but you did say 'there was no relevance as you can't prove Michen's horse was the same'  and readers have no way of knowing that you didn't mean me.
		
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Grammar is not my strongest point  I admit! I freely use "you" as in "one" or to mean "they, their, that person, anyone"... a point worth noting  thank you.


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## ester (29 August 2015)

Barnacle said:



			I haven't read this entire thread and I've not looked into this man in great detail (watched that one video and some other clips of him riding the same horse when it was rearing in slow motion). From the quote off this guy's website on the first page, I get the implication that this guy "researches" movement (also from the fact he's called this "science of motion" though, nothing else quoted suggests to me there's an iota of science involved)... So, since I'm being lazy, does this guy actually do any research/have peer-reviewed papers out? Or are we talking pretend-science gibberish?
		
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The latter I think  write in a way that confuses enough that they think it is science? With just a couple of references from others studies (none from him, not proper ones anyway) to show you've read some stuff.


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## tallyho! (29 August 2015)

I think he means well and if you can get past the first paragraph of his scientific teachings with talk of forces and stuff without going cross eyed... I salute you.

His utmost focus is the well being of horses and is kind with it. His motto I've seen quoted is something like 'The hand is not to control the horse but to feel his thoughts' - thats approximate by the way not a direct quote. I should probably google the right one but it's the essence I'm trying to get across. 

Giberrish or not, I think the world needs kind people and I cannot see anything he does is actually cruel... unless I'm proven otherwise. He uses many scientific quotes and interprets it his way. It's not a bad way but I'm not qualified to say any more than that. He promotes lightness and anyone who does that gets my vote, bonkers or not.


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## Goldenstar (29 August 2015)

tallyho! said:



			I think he means well and if you can get past the first paragraph of his scientific teachings with talk of forces and stuff without going cross eyed... I salute you.

His utmost focus is the well being of horses and is kind with it. His motto I've seen quoted is something like 'The hand is not to control the horse but to feel his thoughts' - thats approximate by the way not a direct quote. I should probably google the right one but it's the essence I'm trying to get across. 

Giberrish or not, I think the world needs kind people and I cannot see anything he does is actually cruel... unless I'm proven otherwise. He uses many scientific quotes and interprets it his way. It's not a bad way but I'm not qualified to say any more than that. He promotes lightness and anyone who does that gets my vote, bonkers or not.
		
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It's all about perception .
I would be ashamed to ride a horse going as the grey in the rearing clip was .


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## npage123 (29 August 2015)

tallyho! said:



			I think he means well and if you can get past the first paragraph of his scientific teachings with talk of forces and stuff without going cross eyed... I salute you.

His utmost focus is the well being of horses and is kind with it. His motto I've seen quoted is something like 'The hand is not to control the horse but to feel his thoughts' - thats approximate by the way not a direct quote. I should probably google the right one but it's the essence I'm trying to get across. 

Giberrish or not, I think the world needs kind people and I cannot see anything he does is actually cruel... unless I'm proven otherwise. He uses many scientific quotes and interprets it his way. It's not a bad way but I'm not qualified to say any more than that. He promotes lightness and anyone who does that gets my vote, bonkers or not.
		
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Thank you for this Tallyho!  

I really didn't expect this tread (and the previous one) to turn out like this, becoming almost a mockery of Jean Luc Cornill.  Like you, I could see his kindness and pure intentions with the great lengths he's going through to help horses.  TBH I'm feeling really sick with regret for having posted links/videos of this trainer.  Some people on the forum are so quick to judge, even before they've got their facts right, and are not inclined to give the other person the benefit of the doubt.  I wish this forum could have been fairer in that respect.  I wish Jean Luc Cornill could have given his side of the story.


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## YasandCrystal (29 August 2015)

OP for what it's worth I think highly of Jean Luc Cornille. I have never seen any cruelty or force in any of his in hand or ridden work. He will take the time to reply if you ask a question. His 'science' speech is often beyond me however his passion, love of horses and good intent must be clearly visible to all. He has a great classical seat and I do not for one minute believe he would cause any horse harm. Horses needing rehab often look lame when they are made to use themselves differently. My own WB has gone through this, but he would tell me if he was in pain as I believe Chazot would to Jean Luc.  He doesn't bute up horses to ride them he rehabilitates so they use themselves correctly and therefore offers them a comfortable life. Straightness work is just amazing.
So he is making some money from his teachings, why not. I pay good money to watch Charles de Kunffy teaching/lecture as I have done Gerd Hershmann. I would love to attend a klaus Hempfling clinic but he's never close enough. Without these great classical names passing on their knowledge so much would be lost.


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## tallyho! (29 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			It's all about perception .
I would be ashamed to ride a horse going as the grey in the rearing clip was .
		
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GS, in that particular clip, the horse was not going forward in any shape or form. All the rider was doing was trying to get some calmness from such a tense horse... later you see in another clip he has calmed down and is fine. 

What would you do? I'd be interested to hear what your prescription would be in this case, a horse who was given the all clear by the vet and physio for him to rehabilitate?


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## tallyho! (29 August 2015)

YasandCrystal said:



			OP for what it's worth I think highly of Jean Luc Cornille. I have never seen any cruelty or force in any of his in hand or ridden work. He will take the time to reply if you ask a question. His 'science' speech is often beyond me however his passion, love of horses and good intent must be clearly visible to all. He has a great classical seat and I do not for one minute believe he would cause any horse harm. Horses needing rehab often look lame when they are made to use themselves differently. My own WB has gone through this, but he would tell me if he was in pain as I believe Chazot would to Jean Luc.  He doesn't bute up horses to ride them he rehabilitates so they use themselves correctly and therefore offers them a comfortable life. Straightness work is just amazing.
So he is making some money from his teachings, why not. I pay good money to watch Charles de Kunffy teaching/lecture as I have done Gerd Hershmann. I would love to attend a klaus Hempfling clinic but he's never close enough. Without these great classical names passing on their knowledge so much would be lost.
		
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Absolutely! Each one has so much to give and do it in their own way. It's up to us to interpret and make it our aim to be light and kind. I agree about straightness training and hope to be able to do some with my mare soon. She is one that needs to learn to use her body better and not be so hot headed.


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## D66 (29 August 2015)

I find it odd that people can't just accept that other riders do things differently.  JL is calm and thoughtful and is obviously trying to help the horse who is shuffling in trot. Watched a few more videos and saw he gets results - what's not to like?


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## Goldenstar (29 August 2015)

tallyho! said:



			GS, in that particular clip, the horse was not going forward in any shape or form. All the rider was doing was trying to get some calmness from such a tense horse... later you see in another clip he has calmed down and is fine. 

What would you do? I'd be interested to hear what your prescription would be in this case, a horse who was given the all clear by the vet and physio for him to rehabilitate?[

Lots and I mean lots of work stepping over poles and raised poles and small logs become progressively more difficult ,teaching the horse to leg yield over three planks in a row ( Not a line ) walking towards being able to do this with one end of each plank raised  in long reins and walk lunging ( where I walk the horse in lunging kit about ten feet from it but not going round in circles if that makes sense )
Hours spent in my woods being walked over logs on the ground up and down banks .
Being lead from another horse over rough hills .
Work ridden working toward the long and low position but never putting the horse in a position so that it could not keep balance .
The horse living in a quiet field with calm friends so it's stretching down grazing and the company of others to ease it's mind but coming into the stable for a period daily .
Daily passive stretching on a programme from the physio .
Fortnightly physio assessment at first .
Vet monthly at first .
That's all about monitoring changes.
Saddle fitter as necessary my horse change shape a lot and fast on this programme so I have to really on top of the saddle fit.
I think horses who have been through a lot often find the 'equine touch ' people very helpful not sure why just my observation it settles their mind and it's pleasurable which is great if the vets have been doing stuff to them .  
The yard needs to be a calm environment where the horses see others being worked in a calm and happy way .
One of my box windows opens on to  my school I'll often put a horse that has bad associations with work in that stable I like them to watch that nothing terrible happens .
I often do the in hand pole work with another horse doing the same at first so the horse sees a calm mentor doing what he's being asked .
That would be my start ,six perhaps eight weeks of that and reassess and make the next plan .
		
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## npage123 (29 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:





tallyho! said:



			GS, in that particular clip, the horse was not going forward in any shape or form. All the rider was doing was trying to get some calmness from such a tense horse... later you see in another clip he has calmed down and is fine. 

What would you do? I'd be interested to hear what your prescription would be in this case, a horse who was given the all clear by the vet and physio for him to rehabilitate?[

Lots and I mean lots of work stepping over poles and raised poles and small logs become progressively more difficult ,teaching the horse to leg yield over three planks in a row ( Not a line ) walking towards being able to do this with one end of each plank raised  in long reins and walk lunging ( where I walk the horse in lunging kit about ten feet from it but not going round in circles if that makes sense )
Hours spent in my woods being walked over logs on the ground up and down banks .
Being lead from another horse over rough hills .
Work ridden working toward the long and low position but never putting the horse in a position so that it could not keep balance .
The horse living in a quiet field with calm friends so it's stretching down grazing and the company of others to ease it's mind but coming into the stable for a period daily .
Daily passive stretching on a programme from the physio .
Fortnightly physio assessment at first .
Vet monthly at first .
That's all about monitoring changes.
Saddle fitter as necessary my horse change shape a lot and fast on this programme so I have to really on top of the saddle fit.
I think horses who have been through a lot often find the 'equine touch ' people very helpful not sure why just my observation it settles their mind and it's pleasurable which is great if the vets have been doing stuff to them .  
The yard needs to be a calm environment where the horses see others being worked in a calm and happy way .
One of my box windows opens on to  my school I'll often put a horse that has bad associations with work in that stable I like them to watch that nothing terrible happens .
I often do the in hand pole work with another horse doing the same at first so the horse sees a calm mentor doing what he's being asked .
That would be my start ,six perhaps eight weeks of that and reassess and make the next plan .
		
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Sounds like a good programme, as if you know what you're doing. 
Just wanted to say:  because the short clips of video's on youtube are only that, short video's - we only get a small glimpse of his whole however long period of rehabilitation programmes..   You may even find that plenty of the practices hat you use, are also possibly also used by JLC, if the medical state of the horse allows such movements of course  Know know?  But it will be very time-consuming to post his training methods from start to finish online. 

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## tallyho! (29 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:





tallyho! said:



			GS, in that particular clip, the horse was not going forward in any shape or form. All the rider was doing was trying to get some calmness from such a tense horse... later you see in another clip he has calmed down and is fine. 

What would you do? I'd be interested to hear what your prescription would be in this case, a horse who was given the all clear by the vet and physio for him to rehabilitate?[

Lots and I mean lots of work stepping over poles and raised poles and small logs become progressively more difficult ,teaching the horse to leg yield over three planks in a row ( Not a line ) walking towards being able to do this with one end of each plank raised  in long reins and walk lunging ( where I walk the horse in lunging kit about ten feet from it but not going round in circles if that makes sense )
Hours spent in my woods being walked over logs on the ground up and down banks .
Being lead from another horse over rough hills .
Work ridden working toward the long and low position but never putting the horse in a position so that it could not keep balance .
The horse living in a quiet field with calm friends so it's stretching down grazing and the company of others to ease it's mind but coming into the stable for a period daily .
Daily passive stretching on a programme from the physio .
Fortnightly physio assessment at first .
Vet monthly at first .
That's all about monitoring changes.
Saddle fitter as necessary my horse change shape a lot and fast on this programme so I have to really on top of the saddle fit.
I think horses who have been through a lot often find the 'equine touch ' people very helpful not sure why just my observation it settles their mind and it's pleasurable which is great if the vets have been doing stuff to them .  
The yard needs to be a calm environment where the horses see others being worked in a calm and happy way .
One of my box windows opens on to  my school I'll often put a horse that has bad associations with work in that stable I like them to watch that nothing terrible happens .
I often do the in hand pole work with another horse doing the same at first so the horse sees a calm mentor doing what he's being asked .
That would be my start ,six perhaps eight weeks of that and reassess and make the next plan .
		
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Sounds like just what I'm doing with my mare... very sensible. With a sensible horse.

I hope it would work with such a troubled horse as poor Chazot. Who reared for no perceptible reason other than he thought he was going to beaten just for being himself. I could never hope to achieve all of the above with a horse such as that.

There is nothing wrong with Chazot. He is mentally scarred. Not because he was abused... because something somewhere made him *think* humans were all about beating him up. His whole life was spent defending himself. And so, he developed other issues. 

He turned out to be an absolutely lovely horse. I cried when I read his full story. I could never do what you lined up above for him. He would never do it......... he would have had to trust me first and he didn;t trust anyone sadly until JLC worked with him.
		
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## tallyho! (29 August 2015)

Also I should add that he had been to many other "professionals" before JLC.

And, I do not doubt your professionalism GS, I just wonder if Chazot was a one off... which many thought he was and was worth euthanasing.


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## paddy555 (29 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:





tallyho! said:



			GS, in that particular clip, the horse was not going forward in any shape or form. All the rider was doing was trying to get some calmness from such a tense horse... later you see in another clip he has calmed down and is fine. 

What would you do? I'd be interested to hear what your prescription would be in this case, a horse who was given the all clear by the vet and physio for him to rehabilitate?[

Lots and I mean lots of work stepping over poles and raised poles and small logs become progressively more difficult ,teaching the horse to leg yield over three planks in a row ( Not a line ) walking towards being able to do this with one end of each plank raised  in long reins and walk lunging ( where I walk the horse in lunging kit about ten feet from it but not going round in circles if that makes sense )
Hours spent in my woods being walked over logs on the ground up and down banks .
Being lead from another horse over rough hills .
Work ridden working toward the long and low position but never putting the horse in a position so that it could not keep balance .
The horse living in a quiet field with calm friends so it's stretching down grazing and the company of others to ease it's mind but coming into the stable for a period daily .
Daily passive stretching on a programme from the physio .
Fortnightly physio assessment at first .
Vet monthly at first .
That's all about monitoring changes.
Saddle fitter as necessary my horse change shape a lot and fast on this programme so I have to really on top of the saddle fit.
I think horses who have been through a lot often find the 'equine touch ' people very helpful not sure why just my observation it settles their mind and it's pleasurable which is great if the vets have been doing stuff to them .  
The yard needs to be a calm environment where the horses see others being worked in a calm and happy way .
One of my box windows opens on to  my school I'll often put a horse that has bad associations with work in that stable I like them to watch that nothing terrible happens .
I often do the in hand pole work with another horse doing the same at first so the horse sees a calm mentor doing what he's being asked .
That would be my start ,six perhaps eight weeks of that and reassess and make the next plan .
		
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what happens then though?  At some stage someone will have to get on the horse, lets say it's similar to Chazot as we know what he was like. However many poles it walks over, banks it walks up and down a and nice living conditions it has someone will have to get on. When they get on it will more than likely stand vertical. The memory of either the pain or habit of rearing will still be there. It will have to be faced. JLC got on and faced it, with or without a hat. I doubt many would feel able to do that. 

Having done a lot of reading of his site (but not enough yet to understand all the technicalities) then as I understand it Chazot was in a racing barn, regarded it as hellish (their words) was not kindly treated and was unsuitable as a horse physically for racing. I think he was made to run in the middle when in fact he should have run differently. Anyway from what I understand he stood up and the jockey came off. He got beaten. He stood up again, got beaten more and learnt to really stand up and I believe wave his front legs. The standing up appears to have been partly pain but partly mental aggression etc due to his treatment. 

JLC worked out that he had a muscle problem in his back which caused the pain part. Due to RER. The horse was also diagnosed with stomach ulcers which were treated. He goes into endless descriptions as to how he worked the horse (in hand at the side of him) to improve the way his body worked to resolve his difficulties.


I think it would be wrong to believe this bears no resemblance to Michen's horse. It may well bear a great deal of resemblance especially the stress part which I wonder if this is the key to the rearing. 

I have learnt a lot and there were a couple of points that I found that made me seriously believe it was well worth reading after I found similar problems and causes  with one of my own.
		
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## npage123 (29 August 2015)

Thanks for the info paddy555 - the more I learn about JLC, the more I like him


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## Goldenstar (29 August 2015)

What happens next ?if the horse is still sound you start to train it to be ridden .
Be clear I am not saying I think I could have trained that horse I was asked what would I do that's what I have posted very damaged horses do often learn to trust people it's a failure in my eyes if they learn only to trust one person but it's understandable that it happens .
I would have to write a book to post you what might come next.
I don't think that you can say no one else could have trained that horse the world is full of talented ethical trainers doing things in lots of different ways .


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## tallyho! (29 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			What happens next ?if the horse is still sound you start to train it to be ridden .
Be clear I am not saying I think I could have trained that horse I was asked what would I do that's what I have posted very damaged horses do often learn to trust people it's a failure in my eyes if they learn only to trust one person but it's understandable that it happens .
I would have to write a book to post you what might come next.
I don't think that you can say no one else could have trained that horse the world is full of talented ethical trainers doing things in lots of different ways .
		
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Quite and he was one person who took the horse on at the time. Chazot gave rides to many in the end as you may have read but is now semi-retired but does in hand demos according to the site along with a few other horses. JLC is in his 70's now I think so write more than he teaches... 

I'm very much open to his ideas. After all he was a Le Cadre Noir graduate and helped to train two Olympic teams, so eight years worth of international eventing right there. He follows the classical school of training which by the sounds of it, you do too GS so I am surprised how against him you are. I would have thought he would have been right up your street... apart from the sciencey stuff which few so far can properly decipher. I wonder if you tried, as I have, you may find a connection somewhere.


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## tristar (29 August 2015)

I`ve just watched a few of his methods on you tube, he does not use spurs, side reins and lunges exactly like I do, and kisses his horse when it is lying down, so to some extent he is a man after my own heart, I like his laid back confidence, he doesn't rush at the horse, he gives things time to happen.


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## npage123 (29 August 2015)

tristar said:



			I`ve just watched a few of his methods on you tube, he does not use spurs, side reins and lunges exactly like I do, and kisses his horse when it is lying down, so to some extent he is a man after my own heart, I like his laid back confidence, he doesn't rush at the horse, he gives things time to happen.
		
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Aw that's really lovely


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## paddy555 (30 August 2015)

I read a bit more about Chazot and JLC's methods. Difficult to find the whole story quickly as it is in so many different places.  The original video posted looked as if he cruelly got on the horse which was in pain. 
 I did find that after purchasing the horse they gave it a year's  sabatical just looking after it so that it could get over it's problems before starting work. The video in isolation seems misleading and it appears that a lot of work and training went into getting Chazot to the stage of attempting to ride again. He describes his set up, stabling, handling etc and it seems to be very similar to what GS suggested in her post about how she would deal with this sort of horse. 

.


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## tallyho! (30 August 2015)

Which is why I'm surprised she took umbrage to the video. Not like GS to dismiss classical ways.


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## Fun Times (30 August 2015)

The clip that I enjoyed watching was him walking Chazot out in hand. It was headed something like "chazot's first time out of the barn" or similar so I guessed it was at a point during or after box rest. The horse was hopping (the sort of hoppimg that some rather more dramatic horse people would term broncing) about next to the guy and you could tell that if he had the opportunity he would properly explode and boil over. JLC dealt with him very calmly and without any faff. He let him get on with being a fresh horse without getting flappy about it. I rather admired the way he dealt with the horse in that clip.


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## Goldenstar (30 August 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Which is why I'm surprised she took umbrage to the video. Not like GS to dismiss classical ways.
		
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I did not take umbrage at the video I did took no personal offence at the video what so ever .
I dislike intensly seeing a horse ridden like that creeping about ,not 'through 'no forwardness .
The manta I grew up on was you ride your forward and you keep it straight neither where going on in that video .
Of all the attributes a horse has the most precious is it's forwardness .
I don't regard myself as being what I consider classically trained although some of the trainers who influenced me most when young certain had what would have been thought of then as classical training .
In those days I don't remember there being any distinction between the types of training you just learn from different people got lots of mentoring .
The trainer I work most with now has had training in Vienna but is very much in the modern dressage school.
But I am pretty disinterested in being in one camp or the other in fact that classical pure ,good and ethical and modern sports dressage bad and vice versa is just makes me laugh it's IMO just nonsensical.


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## tristar (30 August 2015)

have not watched all the clips but I see a man giving a horse a chance to feel its own body and talk to the handler or rider, a chance to learn that some men will meet the horse in no mans land and give it the opportunity to take confidence and let man become his respected partner.


I think he has got it just right, the horse is broken it not that it doesn't know how to be ridden, it learned to  expect the worst from humans, he gave it the chance to break through to a new level one step at a time.


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## tallyho! (30 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I did not take umbrage at the video I did took no personal offence at the video what so ever .
I dislike intensly seeing a horse ridden like that creeping about ,not 'through 'no forwardness .
The manta I grew up on was you ride your forward and you keep it straight neither where going on in that video .
Of all the attributes a horse has the most precious is it's forwardness .
I don't regard myself as being what I consider classically trained although some of the trainers who influenced me most when young certain had what would have been thought of then as classical training .
In those days I don't remember there being any distinction between the types of training you just learn from different people got lots of mentoring .
The trainer I work most with now has had training in Vienna but is very much in the modern dressage school.
But I am pretty disinterested in being in one camp or the other in fact that classical pure ,good and ethical and modern sports dressage bad and vice versa is just makes me laugh it's IMO just nonsensical.
		
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Don't you think the "creeping about" was all he could get without the horse exploding though given his personality? Through and forward wasn't where he was at yet. I don't think that horse even knew what that meant. He either reared or went flat out on a racecourse.

p.s. when I say classical, I mean good old fashioned horsemanship, as in what they teach in the military, in the srs etc. which works with equine natural abilities and using feel, rather than force. Modern has become something else to a lot of people now, fixation on the head position rather than any fluidity and harmony. I think a distinction must be drawn or else we all risk the more cruel and short term gains of what we could call "modern" becoming the norm. Whilst I appreciate that there are people like you who are disinterested in any sort of camp, seeing that there is no necessity to distinguish the differences, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist and it needs to be made. P Karl, G Hauschmann, S Loch et al are very outspoken with regard to the differences and so are some of the top people in FEI yet the rules are still disregarded and people still abuse.


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## Goldenstar (30 August 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Don't you think the "creeping about" was all he could get without the horse exploding though given his personality? Through and forward wasn't where he was at yet. I don't think that horse even knew what that meant. He either reared or went flat out on a racecourse.

p.s. when I say classical, I mean good old fashioned horsemanship, as in what they teach in the military, in the srs etc. which works with equine natural abilities and using feel, rather than force. Modern has become something else to a lot of people now, fixation on the head position rather than any fluidity and harmony. I think a distinction must be drawn or else we all risk the more cruel and short term gains of what we could call "modern" becoming the norm. Whilst I appreciate that there are people like you who are disinterested in any sort of camp, seeing that there is no necessity to distinguish the differences, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist and it needs to be made. P Karl, G Hauschmann, S Loch et al are very outspoken with regard to the differences and so are some of the top people in FEI yet the rules are still disregarded and people still abuse.
		
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People who think that modern is about fixing the head position are just in my experiance wrong it's not what's it's about in any way shape or form .
I am not in any way interested in debating because if that your view of what 'modern 'training is about.  I believe forwards is the first thing the horse learns , any one thinks that a horse not tracking up like the grey was should be ridden in any way except forwards and in a very free way is so far apart from what I do it's a pointless debate .
Ride your horse forwards and keep it straight that's the basis of training and that's not want I saw in that clip .


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## tallyho! (31 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			People who think that modern is about fixing the head position are just in my experiance wrong it's not what's it's about in any way shape or form .
I am not in any way interested in debating because if that your view of what 'modern 'training is about.  I believe forwards is the first thing the horse learns , any one thinks that a horse not tracking up like the grey was should be ridden in any way except forwards and in a very free way is so far apart from what I do it's a pointless debate .
Ride your horse forwards and keep it straight that's the basis of training and that's not want I saw in that clip .
		
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I respect your opinion.


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## Ambers Echo (16 January 2018)

Hi 

Resurrected this thread as recently I stayed with my mum whose neighbour has 2 horses. She normally hacks one and leads the other but offered me a ride. I have never ever ridden such a light, responsive horse. He was amazing even though still young. I asked her how she schooled him to be like that and she said she was a student of Jean Luc and directed me to the Science in motion website. I can't understand a word of it!

I searched on here and pretty much agree with the views expressed by some that he is a talented trainer and also that his writing is totally inaccessible. And that he is not unique in terms of what he actually does. So can anyone direct me to 'JL Made Simple' book/articles or to a writer who can express similar ideas more clearly. There is no point in me trying to read stuff if it is dressed up in sciencey sounding gibberish and makes no sense to me and/or if there is no practical application offered. Eg if you are;t supposed to work long and low anymore (though horses graze long and low so I doubt it can be that harmful!) then what are you supposed to do instead?

TIA!


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## tallyho! (18 January 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			Hi 

Resurrected this thread as recently I stayed with my mum whose neighbour has 2 horses. She normally hacks one and leads the other but offered me a ride. I have never ever ridden such a light, responsive horse. He was amazing even though still young. I asked her how she schooled him to be like that and she said she was a student of Jean Luc and directed me to the Science in motion website. I can't understand a word of it!

I searched on here and pretty much agree with the views expressed by some that he is a talented trainer and also that his writing is totally inaccessible. And that he is not unique in terms of what he actually does. So can anyone direct me to 'JL Made Simple' book/articles or to a writer who can express similar ideas more clearly. There is no point in me trying to read stuff if it is dressed up in sciencey sounding gibberish and makes no sense to me and/or if there is no practical application offered. Eg if you are;t supposed to work long and low anymore (though horses graze long and low so I doubt it can be that harmful!) then what are you supposed to do instead?

TIA!
		
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He's classical but clearly has put a "science" spin/technique on his work - it is hard to read, I agree.

If you like biomechanics then why not try Mary Wanless' books? She has a new one on Rider Biomechanics and I found it easy to follow.

You can't really go wrong with Sylvia Lochs books, you have a selection to choose from... Dressage in Lightness, The classical Rider, The balanced Rider, her DVDs... 

Sally Swift Centred riding.

Phillipe Karl has aseries (maybe 2?) of DVDs that I found easy to follow and his techniques have translated into real life pretty well.


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## ester (18 January 2018)

I do still think a lot of it is spin, I am not sure his latest on 'forces' fits with the concepts of actual forces and physics.


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## tallyho! (18 January 2018)

ester said:



			I do still think a lot of it is spin, I am not sure his latest on 'forces' fits with the concepts of actual forces and physics.
		
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Ah well, who really cares, I wouldn't get bogged down in his detail. His hearts in the right place and he means no harm - his whole philosophy is actually admirable; that he trains to preserve the horses' lightness - exactly what all riding should be about, and is indeed what the other "classical masters" aim for, and with that I mean both the old masters (e.g. Colonel Alois Podhajsky) and the new (e.g. Reiner Klimke, Phillipe Karl). It's such a shame he loses so many people by making himself unfathomable by the lay-rider...


It's such a shame that mastery of the horse went in two different directions in the first place - the common dressage that's getting so much attention for all the wrong reasons, and the classical. IMHO there should never have been any difference. The former seems to aim to use as much force as humanly possible, and the latter the least force as humanly possible.


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## Ambers Echo (18 January 2018)

Thanks. I do like Mary Wanless so I'll dig out my old books and try again! I ended up giving up as I could never get the 'feel' of what she was saying - eg popping up, bearing down, plugging in etc  plus I never knew if I had corrected myself correctly, made no difference or made things worse!


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## ester (18 January 2018)

I care  I think if you are going to use such principles to explain things you ought to have them right. But then I always get bogged down in the detail  

Also I think it is a great shame that given what you say he makes himself so impenetrable, but also that he seemsto leave a lot of people thinking they just aren't good enough/sciencey enough to understand it when actually that isn't the case at all because even the science/biomechanics people struggle to understand what he is trying to say. I guess we should be thankful that there are people that seem more keen to bring people along with them and explain in simpler terms .


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## tallyho! (18 January 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			Thanks. I do like Mary Wanless so I'll dig out my old books and try again! I ended up giving up as I could never get the 'feel' of what she was saying - eg popping up, bearing down, plugging in etc  plus I never knew if I had corrected myself correctly, made no difference or made things worse!
		
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LOL! That is so funny! Yeah I felt like that too when I first started reading her books years ago, I did give up for quite a while - however, I gave her another chance chance with rider biomechanics and a penny has dropped somewhere


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## Ambers Echo (18 January 2018)

I agree really. I did sciences at A Level and Undergraduate level and it's still beyond me! Plus I am a staunch believer in the best teachers being able to explain things very very simply. Think Richard Feynman for example. So I am frustrated by people who seem to want to blind me with 'Science'. I do like what little i do understand though.


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## tallyho! (18 January 2018)

ester said:



			I care  I think if you are going to use such principles to explain things you ought to have them right. But then I always get bogged down in the detail  

Also I think it is a great shame that given what you say he makes himself so impenetrable, but also that he seemsto leave a lot of people thinking they just aren't good enough/sciencey enough to understand it when actually that isn't the case at all because even the science/biomechanics people struggle to understand what he is trying to say. I guess we should be thankful that there are people that seem more keen to bring people along with them and explain in simpler terms .
		
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I know ester, I felt the same frustrations as you. He doesn't get it right and so infuriates people. I had to stop caring because I got upset. I realised that actually, he was overcomplicating something simple... I'd got sucked in by mistake. 

I still like the science, the biomechanics etc of riding - but now I've found sane people that I actually understand 

I respect and admire what he stands for, and thats as far as I can go with him and I don't read his articles anymore... I can't be arsed


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## Puddleduck (18 January 2018)

I&#8217;m glad this has been resurrected as I posted asking about JLC&#8217;s clinics I need Tack Room this morning but got no replies. 

I&#8217;ve been following his FB posts and am using some of his principles with my rehab as a big part of his issues are from his off fore pastern & hoof conformation and foot balance resulting in soft tissue injury including a torn DDFT and navicular bone roughening. He&#8217;s transitioned to barefoot and is sound but I&#8217;m conscious that I need to make sure that I help him physically to overcome compensation issues. Most of it makes sense when I consider the issues I&#8217;m with dealing with and I&#8217;m getting results from what I&#8217;ve been using in groundwork on long lines. 

The reason I posted was that I&#8217;ve been offered 2 lessons with JLC on one of his UK clinics so was wondering if anyone had first hand experience of his teaching either as a rider or a spectator before I committed to the costs.


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## tallyho! (18 January 2018)

I'm afraid I have no direct experience puddleduck, only that I followed him for quite a while as above and still use some of his techniques that work well.

However, I've found someone with a style that resonates with my understanding in PK, SL etc. 

You should follow your own instincts - we all are on our own journey.


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## Ambers Echo (18 January 2018)

tallyho! said:



			LOL! That is so funny! Yeah I felt like that too when I first started reading her books years ago, I did give up for quite a while - however, I gave her another chance chance with rider biomechanics and a penny has dropped somewhere 

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That's reassuring. I'll try again!


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## npage123 (18 January 2018)

I haven't browsed his internet site for quite some time, but I'm quite revved up now to have another go at it.  I know the last time I read his articles and watched video's, I SO wished I could speak French.  

Puddleduck, if I was you I would definitely go to the two lessons.  It looks as if he's very approachable and just ask ask ask until you understand what he's trying to bring across.  You'll probably understand him more and more as the lesson progresses.  He's a legend I'm sure it would be an experience of a life-time.

If you do have the lessons, please come back on here to give us a report of how it went.  It would be very interesting to hear how you found his lessons!


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## {97702} (19 January 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			Thanks. I do like Mary Wanless so I'll dig out my old books and try again! I ended up giving up as I could never get the 'feel' of what she was saying - eg popping up, bearing down, plugging in etc  plus I never knew if I had corrected myself correctly, made no difference or made things worse!
		
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FWIW I attended my first Pilates class last week and the explanations we were given about engaging the pelvic floor etc reminded me immediately of Mary Wanless. 

I had one of her books but personally I could never understand what she was trying to explain - for me her phraseology was really meaningless when she went on about bearing down etc! The Pilates instructor was asking us to do what i interpreted as similar things, which was really interesting to me


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## tallyho! (19 January 2018)

Lévrier;13708925 said:
			
		


			FWIW I attended my first Pilates class last week and the explanations we were given about engaging the pelvic floor etc reminded me immediately of Mary Wanless. 

I had one of her books but personally I could never understand what she was trying to explain - for me her phraseology was really meaningless when she went on about bearing down etc! The Pilates instructor was asking us to do what i interpreted as similar things, which was really interesting to me 

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Her latest book makes a lot more sense and I think resonates with pilates rather a lot as they both use the myofascial "lines" in the body... having given up MW as above, I decided I needed to give it one more try and actually, in the saddle, it makes a difference - I still hate the phrase "bearing down" though


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## ester (19 January 2018)

I went to a demo of MW's very early on (when I was about 14 and only riding wooden RS horses  ) we had a RS trip to the local college. I think it made a lot more sense in person than the books would without that. 
She also amusingly took the college instructors to task by asking the demo riders who taught you that? with regards to them kicking with alternate legs in walk. The second demo horse was dead lame so they had to use the same one twice which was a shame, mostly because if she mentioned 'his cotton socks' one more time I might have screamed  . It was my first ever intro about how much difference seemingly small changes could make, even though it took me a long time to have the opportunity to try it.


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