# BBC NEWS - Ben Maher Sued.



## Helbert (5 December 2013)

Just saw this...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/equestrian/25109333

This can't be right, this doesn't make sense.


----------



## SadKen (5 December 2013)

Oh dear, that doesn't sound good.  Can't believe they would have taken action spuriously given the close friendship they had.  If true, that's very naughty! 

Hope it's not true, but it's certainly possible.


----------



## dianchi (5 December 2013)

Wow that doesn't look good.

Wonder if it's in today's HHO?


----------



## Nicnac (5 December 2013)

Helbert said:



			This can't be right, this doesn't make sense.
		
Click to expand...

In what way doesn't it make sense?  

If it's true, it's a very stupid thing to have done but it's simple fraud and BM will be seriously out of pocket with costs/compensation on top.  

I very much hope it's not true but not holding my breath.  I admit to having read a lot of Jilly Cooper however.....!  Unfortunately Equestrian sports aren't doing themselves any favours at the moment and sponsorship which is already tight as a gnats ar*se will be even more difficult to get. 

So that's endurance, eventing and show jumping that have had bad press; let's hope our blingy prancers (i.e. dressage) are squeaky clean.


----------



## swellhillcottage (5 December 2013)

Hope its not true but sadly it wouldn't surprise me if it was


----------



## Pippin79 (5 December 2013)

I have no idea if this is correct but unfortunately it happens all the time in showjumping and I presume most probably in all other horse sports too.  It's very sad, usually the owners are happy with the prices they recieve and to pay an average 10% commission as most owners wouldn't be able to obtain those sorts of prices without access to the rider's contacts.  Perhaps the riders should just ask for more than the usual 10% upfront, or a higher premium once a certain agreed price is achieved - or for the rider to just buy the horse at a price the owner is happy with and sell it straight on themselves.  It is simple fraud but all too common and often goes accepted as the way things work - very sad when owners are bringing so much into the sport and being abused in this way.  I know of one owner who wanted £250k for her horse and the rider said that if he could get £350k could they split the last £100k 50/50, both were very happy, everyone was honest and the deal was done, trouble is people get greedy and end up ripping off those who have supported them the most.  I'm talking about these cases in general as I only know what I've read re Ben's case.  Sad to have such a negative showjumping story in the news though at a time when showjumping is doing so well in this country and Ben has been world number one for most of this year.


----------



## FinnishLapphund (5 December 2013)

I know that it says "A spokesman for his lawyers declined to comment on the case at this stage", but I still think that the article was a little one sided, so I think that I will sit on the fence and wait for more info.


----------



## ester (5 December 2013)

I'm a little surprised that such big deals are not done owner to owner rather than trusting anyone as your 'middleman'.


----------



## Tiddlypom (5 December 2013)

I hate it when my sporting heroes turn out to be tainted. Ben Maher is of course innocent until proven guilty, but it's a nasty messy affair whatever the outcome.


----------



## dianchi (5 December 2013)

Got a double page in HH today too!

Be interesting to see how this plays out, very sad if Ben has done this.

Don't know many SJ that have 1.5million lying around


----------



## Patterdale (5 December 2013)

ester said:



			I'm a little surprised that such big deals are not done owner to owner rather than trusting anyone as your 'middleman'.
		
Click to expand...

It's standard practice in most equestrian sports. 

I'm not surprised at all to hear this news. I don't know Ben Maher, but the amount of top riders who screw their owners over like this and then think they're clever is unbelievable. But they usually get away with it. 
And show jumpers are generally regarded as being a little more money hungry than others. 

I have no trouble believing it unfortunately.


----------



## ester (5 December 2013)

Oh yes I know it is standard, just think anyone is mad to do it!


----------



## ihatework (5 December 2013)

If it's true he is an absolute idiot.


----------



## JillA (5 December 2013)

How sad, and what a blow to owner/rider relationships in general. If you can't trust each other there is no way forward.


----------



## 9tails (5 December 2013)

ihatework said:



			If it's true he is an absolute idiot.
		
Click to expand...

That's not exactly breaking news either...


----------



## amandap (5 December 2013)

I can see why there is a middleman system, but frankly it is open to temptation or underhand deals, especially if there is no business contact between the owner and buyer but even then, there are ways for 'deals'.
We'll have to wait and see how this pans out.

ps. Wonder if  HMRC are watching? lol


----------



## ihatework (5 December 2013)

9tails said:



			That's not exactly breaking news either...
		
Click to expand...

LOL


----------



## skint1 (5 December 2013)

I've seen this kind of thing done on a very much more modest scale so I guess it goes on, perhaps the scale of the deception is what got him caught (if he is guilty). Sad day for Ben Maher, because if he is found guilty, apart from losing his sponsors and probably finding it hard to get new ones there are bound to be tax implications too, that's a lot unaccounted for income, even if you have got horses to keep.


----------



## BBH (5 December 2013)

What an awful day for show jumping although it seems this type of thing is endemic. If he is guilty he's gone from hero to zero.


----------



## AdorableAlice (5 December 2013)

Greed, pure and simple.  Endemic in the world we all live in, we are just more used to seeing it in the banking and corporate industry.  Why is it the more successful people are the more greedy they get.


----------



## Orangehorse (5 December 2013)

Just read the article, what a shame, it is a bad news day for show jumping.

Do I think it happens with expensive horses?  Probably.


----------



## MadBlackLab (5 December 2013)

He going to struggle now for sponsorship and partnerships with horses. His name is going to be mud. Such a waste for such a young talented sports star and a bad name for show jumping


----------



## EQUISCENE (5 December 2013)

If it is true shame BM couldn't have been more upfront about it but to be honest those horses probably wouldn't have been worth anything near those value without his input..


----------



## Patterdale (5 December 2013)

EQUISCENE said:



			....to be honest those horses probably wouldn't have been worth anything near those value without his input..
		
Click to expand...

That's not the point though, as I think you may have misunderstood the allegations. He was acting as an agent. For example - (disclaimer - dont know the details, hypothetical example) this is the kind of thing which can cause these disputes. 

- Agent is asked to find a horse for clients. Finds suitable horse priced at £250k. Tells client price is £300k. Pockets difference. 

- Agent is asked to sell a horse for client. Tells client he got £150k for it. Really got £200k for it. Pockets difference. 

This kind of thing happens ALL the time unfortunately and the clients rarely find out. I'm not saying this is what's happened here, just that the horses' value doesn't have to have had anything to do with him.


----------



## EQUISCENE (5 December 2013)

Yes I realize that snowonsnow it is dishonesty/fraud whatever but the fact that he as a name/top SJ was involved at all would have realized more money, rather than Joe Bloggs acting on buyer/sellers behalf, that was my point.


----------



## Nicnac (5 December 2013)

EQUISCENE said:



			Yes I realize that snowonsnow it is dishonesty/fraud whatever but the fact that he as a name/top SJ was involved at all would have realized more money, rather than Joe Bloggs acting on buyer/sellers behalf, that was my point.
		
Click to expand...

and I think you make a very good point too!


----------



## Buddy'sMum (5 December 2013)

EQUISCENE said:



			If it is true shame BM couldn't have been more upfront about it but to be honest those horses probably wouldn't have been worth anything near those value without his input..
		
Click to expand...

And where do you think BM would be today if he hadn't had the Phillips' support all these years?


----------



## EQUISCENE (5 December 2013)

Probably still at the top as he bred Triple xxx and a rider of his calibre will attract sponsors. He was a very successful junior without sponsorship.  Perhaps he should have just asked for a bigger cut with these deals..


----------



## Patterdale (5 December 2013)

EQUISCENE said:



			Yes I realize that snowonsnow it is dishonesty/fraud whatever but the fact that he as a name/top SJ was involved at all would have realized more money, rather than Joe Bloggs acting on buyer/sellers behalf, that was my point.
		
Click to expand...

And that's probably why people chose to have him act as their agent. But he won't have beendoing it for free, he'll have had an agreed commission. 
To give yourself backhanders over and above this through fraudulent means (if he HAS) is totally and utterly inexcusable. 

Plus, the Phillips have been his backers since he was 22 and struggling for rides. He wouldn't be where he was now if it wasn't for them.


----------



## Patterdale (5 December 2013)

EQUISCENE said:



			Probably still at the top as he bred Triple xxx and a rider of his calibre will attract sponsors. He was a very successful junior without sponsorship.  Perhaps he should have just asked for a bigger cut with these deals..
		
Click to expand...

He can be as successful as he likes with ponies, lots are, but without the horses at senior level he'd be nowhere. He had nothing to ride and the Phillips answered his advert in HH begging for rides. They've treated him like one of the family and if he really has ripped them off its disgraceful.


----------



## Patterdale (5 December 2013)

Duplicate post


----------



## amandap (5 December 2013)

SnowOnSnow said:



			And that's probably why people chose to have him act as their agent. But he won't have beendoing it for free, he'll have had an agreed commission. 
To give yourself backhanders over and above this through fraudulent means (if he HAS) is totally and utterly inexcusable.
		
Click to expand...

It appears he, of course, got a good commission on one deal, quote from article below. I am sure he would always be paid a fee...

"_It describes an invoice of $50,000 for third party commission on the deal as "a sham"._"


----------



## MadBlackLab (5 December 2013)

SnowOnSnow said:



			He can be as successful as he likes with ponies, lots are, but without the horses at senior level he'd be nowhere. He had nothing to ride and the Phillips answered his advert in HH begging for rides. They've treated him like one of the family and if he really has ripped them off its disgraceful.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I agree. If has ripped them off it is disgraceful. The saying 'don't bite the hand that feeds you comes to mind.'


----------



## vanrim (5 December 2013)

I know of a family that had their event horse with a top male rider. It wasn't for sale but the rider told them someone had offered £50k for it. They didn't want to sell so decided to go and collect horse. When they got there the horses legs had been clipped for a scan and it looked like the horse had already been vetted in readiness for sale. They put horse with another top event rider who was more trustworthy and when they decided to sell some time later they got over £100k! This obviously goes on all the time. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Ben Maher has been up to no good and has bitten the hand that fed him. Sometimes the private persona is nothing like the public persona.


----------



## onemoretime (5 December 2013)

swellhillcottage said:



			Hope its not true but sadly it wouldn't surprise me if it was 

Click to expand...

  The way horsey people go on it would not surprise me either.  I would believe anything of anyone now!!!


----------



## Pippin79 (5 December 2013)

SnowOnSnow said:



			He can be as successful as he likes with ponies, lots are, but without the horses at senior level he'd be nowhere. He had nothing to ride and the Phillips answered his advert in HH begging for rides. They've treated him like one of the family and if he really has ripped them off its disgraceful.
		
Click to expand...

I agree that if these allegations are true then its disgraceful, but I don't think you can say he'd be nowhere without the Phillips, Ben was very successful in young riders as well as ponies and had won the Hickstead Derby and Speed Derby at 22, which a lot of top riders don't achieve in a lifetime.  Their partnership has been extremely successful but being very talented and from a well off family he was certainly not reliant solely on the Phillip's, they boosted his horse power significantly but I imagine it was an arrangement that worked very well for both parties. Such a shame if true and does happen all too often in showjumping.


----------



## onemoretime (5 December 2013)

ihatework said:



			If it's true he is an absolute idiot.
		
Click to expand...

  There's plenty of them about Ihatework!!!


----------



## onemoretime (5 December 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			Greed, pure and simple.  Endemic in the world we all live in, we are just more used to seeing it in the banking and corporate industry.  Why is it the more successful people are the more greedy they get.
		
Click to expand...

  Probably because they have a bigger life style to keep up.


----------



## onemoretime (5 December 2013)

Sometimes the private persona is nothing like the public persona.  

So very true Vanrim particularly in the horse world.


----------



## sport horse (5 December 2013)

Pippin79 said:



			I agree that if these allegations are true then its disgraceful, but I don't think you can say he'd be nowhere without the Phillips, Ben was very successful in young riders as well as ponies and had won the Hickstead Derby and Speed Derby at 22, which a lot of top riders don't achieve in a lifetime.  Their partnership has been extremely successful but being very talented and from a well off family he was certainly not reliant solely on the Phillip's, they boosted his horse power significantly but I imagine it was an arrangement that worked very well for both parties. Such a shame if true and does happen all too often in showjumping.
		
Click to expand...

It is not only show jumping and it is not only in GB. It is multi discipline, world wide and well known.


----------



## Goldenstar (5 December 2013)

ihatework said:



			If it's true he is an absolute idiot.
		
Click to expand...

Can't disagree with this .


----------



## Foxford (8 December 2013)

I wonder when the trial will conclude, can't be that much longer to go now. TBH if it was true, you'd have thought he'd try and settle it out of court due to the damage to his reputation, sponsorsip etc. Very odd though, but I suppose I'm used to working for big corporations where deals are pretty transparent and are mostly made public due to all the legal plc-type stuff.


----------



## sport horse (8 December 2013)

I think Foxford, if you read the articles carefully, the Phillip's have only just lodged their papers with the court and BM lawyers have now lodged their defence. I guess, unless they settle by mediation, the trial will be at a future date.

To all those who suggest that the horse's price increased because he rode it - some of them were horses he bought on behalf of the Phillip's for himself to ride and he is alleged to have inflated the purchase price!

Do these 'agents' who risk none of their own money at any time (they do not buy the horses themselves and then sell on to owners) share in the losses when a horse does not 'work out'?  I guess the answer to that is 
probably a resounding 'no why should I'!


----------



## Alec Swan (8 December 2013)

Even were Ben Maher to be found to be totally without blame,  there will still be a stigma attached to this and one whereby I suspect that his professional and sponsored riding days may well be over.  

"Oh,  what a tangled web we weave,......."! :rolleyes3:

Alec.


----------



## teapot (9 December 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Even were Ben Maher to be found to be totally without blame,  there will still be a stigma attached to this and one whereby I suspect that his professional and sponsored riding days may well be over.  

"Oh,  what a tangled web we weave,......."! :rolleyes3:

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Certainly his reputation would be called into question by any future owners... If it's true silly silly boy.


----------



## mon (9 December 2013)

Was there not questions over abuse in his marriage or similar a few years ago? not the same but same person.


----------



## cptrayes (9 December 2013)

Foxford said:



			. Very odd though, but I suppose I'm used to working for big corporations where deals are pretty transparent and are mostly made public due to all the legal plc-type stuff.
		
Click to expand...




You don't work in the Corporate world I worked in!



As far Ben, talk about biting the hand that feeds you!


----------



## lannerch (9 December 2013)

I am sitting on the fence until both sides of the story are out, just reading one version also shows a biased story and I for one will be very surprised if the alligations are true, especially as it reeks of sour grapes !

As for future sponsorship Ben has a new sponsor which could well have contributed to the allegations from his ex sponsers, and whilst he keeps on winning like he is, I am sure his position with current sponsers is pretty comfortable .


----------



## dianchi (9 December 2013)

To go high court, they going to have to have pretty good proof!


----------



## Alec Swan (9 December 2013)

lannerch said:



			I am sitting on the fence until both sides of the story are out, .......

As for future sponsorship Ben has a new sponsor which could well have contributed to the allegations from his ex sponsers, and whilst he keeps on winning like he is, I am sure his position with current sponsers is pretty comfortable .
		
Click to expand...

You could very well be right,  but would you now entrust him to sell a valuable horse,  on your behalf,  and without your own involvement?  I wouldn't!!

You've actually raised a good point and a question;  Who in their right minds would sell a horse of such value,  without at least speaking with the buyer?  If there was collusion between BM and the buyers,  then they're hardly likely to admit to it,  are they?

The costs,  if both parties stick to their guns could very well be massive,  so we'll see who buckles first.  Presumably legal counsel will be offered,  though whether it will be taken in,  is another matter!  My bet would be on the fact that this wont actually get to Court,  but if it doesn't,  then BM will have the devil's own job clearing his name of suspicion.  We'll see what happens!!

Alec.


----------



## sport horse (9 December 2013)

lannerch said:



			I am sitting on the fence until both sides of the story are out, just reading one version also shows a biased story and I for one will be very surprised if the alligations are true, especially as it reeks of sour grapes !

As for future sponsorship Ben has a new sponsor which could well have contributed to the allegations from his ex sponsers, and whilst he keeps on winning like he is, I am sure his position with current sponsers is pretty comfortable .
		
Click to expand...

ACtually you have read both sides now - Ben's defence papers were lodged on Thursday. He says he is due commission on stud fees, training and all horses belonging to Quainton that he has competed (see Daily Telegraph and Chronicle of the Horse)

Ben does not have a major sponsor - he does have an american owner who actually took her horses away from their US rider due to his infringing some rules  and causing her embarassment. On that basis she may not find this news so amusing.

The overwhelming sadness is that it is not good for the sport - not just show jumping but all horse sport


----------



## Scarlett (9 December 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			Greed, pure and simple.  Endemic in the world we all live in, we are just more used to seeing it in the banking and corporate industry.  Why is it the more successful people are the more greedy they get.
		
Click to expand...

Because to get to the top of any game you need to have a ruthless streak. It takes a certain type of person. To think that the pro riders are all doing this for the love of it is naive, it's a hard game and many are fuelled by success and money.


----------



## eahotson (9 December 2013)

Scarlett said:



			Because to get to the top of any game you need to have a ruthless streak. It takes a certain type of person. To think that the pro riders are all doing this for the love of it is naive, it's a hard game and many are fuelled by success and money.
		
Click to expand...

That.


----------



## Buddy'sMum (9 December 2013)

Scarlett said:



			Because to get to the top of any game you need to have a ruthless streak. It takes a certain type of person. To think that the pro riders are all doing this for the love of it is naive, it's a hard game and many are fuelled by success and money.
		
Click to expand...

Anyone at the very top of their field is driven by one or the other, or both. I don't have a problem with that. But we're talking about alleged fraud here. If true, that's not a ruthless streak, that's greed and arrogance, not to mention mind-blowing stupidity.


----------



## crabbymare (9 December 2013)

without knowing the full details its hard to say how much if anything he has made over whet they thought he was making. what does need taking into account is the fact that with these deals its not unusual to have 2 or 3 middlemen so some of the difference in the sale and purchase price could easily be where funds have gone through these people and by the time they got to Ben the price could have been significantly less than the purchaser actually paid so I am sitting on thr fence until its all been heard and facts are known


----------



## TarrSteps (9 December 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			You could very well be right,  but would you now entrust him to sell a valuable horse,  on your behalf,  and without your own involvement?  I wouldn't!!

You've actually raised a good point and a question;  Who in their right minds would sell a horse of such value,  without at least speaking with the buyer?  If there was collusion between BM and the buyers,  then they're hardly likely to admit to it,  are they?

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

But deals like that happen quite often.  It's not uncommon for buyers to be anonymous, even to the point that the rider in question might not even try the horse. 

I'll freely admit I've been involved in deals like this even at a very small level.  Sometimes the trainer comes up and tries the horse but you never see the intended owner, sometimes it goes to an agent and then on to the actual buyer - all sorts of permutations and reasons.  It doesn't necessarily means anyone is getting ripped off. 

Anyway, Ben has issued a statement. http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/ben-maher-responds-phillips-lawsuit

What it mostly looks like is a great big mess.


----------



## BBH (9 December 2013)

Whatever had happened its a ridiculous way to do business . Who needs umteen people involved . This whole episode stinks, loyal owners have been left feeling very abused, a top rider has gone from hero to zero even if he is found not guilty, other owners will be left thinking have I been victim of this too . Anyone even considering owning or sponsoring would be well advised to keep their money in their pocket until there is a regulatory body in place to protect all players, owners, riders , sponsors etc.

Having no redress except through the courts has bought another tarnish to a great sport.


----------



## TarrSteps (9 December 2013)

BBH said:



			Whatever had happened its a ridiculous way to do business . Who needs umteen people involved . This whole episode stinks, loyal owners have been left feeling very abused, a top rider has gone from hero to zero even if he is found not guilty, other owners will be left thinking have I been victim of this too . Anyone even considering owning or sponsoring would be well advised to keep their money in their pocket until there is a regulatory body in place to protect all players, owners, riders , sponsors etc.

Having no redress except through the courts has bought another tarnish to a great sport.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not excusing anyone but there IS a way to keep control of things - get everything in writing, agree (by email) on all aspects of a horse's care, value, program, plans etc. Count your change. Do business like business. This goes for both sides - it's not always the riders who are having a fiddle!


I don't think we should hold our breath for a regulatory body, to be fair.  Who would fund it, for one?


----------



## BBH (9 December 2013)

Yes I agree doing business like business is a start. So many of these things are when people fall into 'friendships' thinking that is enough but it isn't , certainly not when money is involved.


----------



## jaffs (9 December 2013)

What was the story a few years ago regarding 'Bob's Diamond' a horse Ben was competing. Didn't he fall out with the owner of the horse?


----------



## onemoretime (11 December 2013)

Scarlett said:



			Because to get to the top of any game you need to have a ruthless streak. It takes a certain type of person. To think that the pro riders are all doing this for the love of it is naive, it's a hard game and many are fuelled by success and money.
		
Click to expand...

Agree totally Scarlett.


----------



## lannerch (12 December 2013)

You could argue here that the ruthless streak was dumping one owner that has supported you and quote treated you like the family for years and helped you get where you are for a better offer, but that doesn't men you would swindle them for large sums of money!

The timing of it still stinks of sour grapes, as why if true have they only just noticed now are they really that loose with their cash, the claim goes back years!

Time will tell. Or perhaps it won't


----------



## cptrayes (12 December 2013)

lannerch said:



			as why if true have they only just noticed now are they really that loose with their cash, the claim goes back years!
		
Click to expand...


In the old days we called it trust.


----------



## Buddy'sMum (12 December 2013)

lannerch said:



			The timing of it still stinks of sour grapes, as why if true have they only just noticed now are they really that loose with their cash, the claim goes back years!
		
Click to expand...

Maybe. 

Or maybe during the dissolution of their business agreement with BM, they/their accountants noticed something amiss and that's what prompted them to look into all sales?


----------



## BBH (12 December 2013)

Was reading his defence in H & H and was hoping for something more than just counter arguments tbh. If he is saying he is owed money why wait years and the defence of court action before highlighting this. Most people would expect to be paid what's owed in a timely fashion surely . It has come across as tit for tat. You owe us money no you owe me money . I bet nothing is in a contract anywhere and hopefully it'll settle out of court because otherwise some poor judge is going to have to decipher all this with presumably very little proof from either side . Am assuming that as no report mentions breach of contract etc etc.  if he was there agent maybe it comes down to a duty of care thing that as an agent you act in your clients best interests .


----------



## Inthemud (12 December 2013)

A ruthless streak is one thing, fraud is quite another.


----------



## lannerch (12 December 2013)

BBH said:



			If he is saying he is owed money why wait years and the defence of court action before highlighting this. Most people would expect to be paid what's owed in a timely fashion surely . It has come across as tit for tat. You owe us money no you owe me money . I bet nothing is in a contract anywhere and hopefully it'll settle out of court .
		
Click to expand...

I think he is saying he has been  paid, with the money that his old owners are now claiming he kept back from them . 
Agree pity any judge though


----------

