# sorry! had to share my puppies with you!



## fruity (14 September 2011)

My bitch gave birth to 5 bonnie babies on the 24th august,1 boy 3 girls. They are Lakeland x Manchester. Hope you like my angels 

A few pics of the little ones:

Mum a few hours before labour started








just born







couple of days old







2 weeks old and starting to crawl and winge!







Today 3 weeks old,barking,crawling,howling! eating each other! oh and sleeping in between!









































sorry if pics are big!


----------



## s4sugar (14 September 2011)

How can they be Lakeland x Manchester when Mum is neither?


----------



## Vizslak (14 September 2011)

^^^what I was wondering!

Cute pups


----------



## fruity (14 September 2011)

Mum is 3/4 manchester 1/4 parson jrt,i know this as i new mum from 2 wks old, i saw both mum and dad. Gosh shame the Dog section of H&H is this bitchy. I won't be returning.


----------



## s4sugar (14 September 2011)

How is asking a reasonable question being bitchy?

Bitchy is commenting on the production of yet more mutts by people too stupid to remove a collar from a nursing bitch.


----------



## littlemisslauren (15 September 2011)

Super cute pups 
I dont think offence was meant by the initial breed query as (to my very untrained eye) mum doesnt scream manchester terrier to me.


----------



## Vizslak (15 September 2011)

Nobody was bitching just stating the mother was clearly not pure bred anything. 
What were your reasons for breeding these mixed breed pups? Were both parents health tested etc? Do you have homes lined up for them all? 
As S4S has mentioned you were lucky leaving that collar on not to have a fatality.


----------



## Vizslak (15 September 2011)

littlemisslauren said:



			Super cute pups 
I dont think offence was meant by the initial breed query as (to my very untrained eye) mum doesnt scream manchester terrier to me.
		
Click to expand...

Well cos she isnt!


----------



## Dobiegirl (15 September 2011)

I take it you dont come in here too often otherwise you would have realised that irresponsible breeding is frowned on. Thats not being bitchy its a fact, a lot of people on here are involved with rescue and are at the sharp end of picking up the pieces that people like you provide. Rescue homes are overwhelmed with dogs and its really irresponsible to add to it. I hope you have homes for all your puppies who are very cute but you have no idea what they are going to look like when they are grown up. Please get your dog spayed and dont add to the growing population in dog homes.


----------



## littlemisslauren (15 September 2011)

Vizslak said:



			Well cos she isnt! 

Click to expand...

Well I was trying to be diplomatic


----------



## cassie summers (15 September 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			I take it you dont come in here too often otherwise you would have realised that irresponsible breeding is frowned on. Thats not being bitchy its a fact, a lot of people on here are involved with rescue and are at the sharp end of picking up the pieces that people like you provide. Rescue homes are overwhelmed with dogs and its really irresponsible to add to it. I hope you have homes for all your puppies who are very cute but you have no idea what they are going to look like when they are grown up. Please get your dog spayed and dont add to the growing population in dog homes.
		
Click to expand...

yes well said i like it in here straight to the point which i am,i have a norfolk terrier who i take to work with me but before i got her 8 years ago now i asked my boss if i could bring her to work as i work nights he said yes then i went to battersea dogs home and found her she has been coming to work with me for the last 8 years now where is this going well ....talking about these strange breeds a girl (woman) shes 22 has started bringing her puppie to work its a staffi x husky the poor thing is a nervouse wreck it has chewed up so much stuff and peed all over office and when she doesnt bring it to work its left at home in a cage so i told her she shouldnt own a dog as she has little knowledge and lives in a flat aswell some of the men at work said i was to harsh but i dont think its fair on the dog its also chewed its tail red raw so i agree there are to many strange breeds and mongrels and pedigrees you only have to look on gumtree shame shame shame


----------



## CAYLA (15 September 2011)

Ok, this forum needs to be change to ALL ABOUT BACKSTREET BREEDING, is this a joke or is this place full of trolls these days
Im still wondering what the hell folk or breeding from random mishmash dogs, obs the money and because the bitch has seasons and a vulva (yes I know that) but is there another reason?.
Another x breed that will know doubt fall into unwitting hands (please tell me these pups) are coming back to you when they are no longer CUTE.
All pups are cute (this whole pups are cute stuff is wearing thin) a rotti x daxi would look cute up until it began to resemble a friggin teryodactyle x bison (sp) and started displaying the behaviour of a wild coyote with the hips of elvis (dear christ give me strength)


----------



## Dobiegirl (15 September 2011)

Cassie I used to have a Battersea dogs home dog and like yours she used to come to work with me and sit under my desk all day. We always guessed she was a Beagle X Manchester Terrier black & tan(just my colour) and she was found tied up in a car park on Boxing day.


----------



## Dobiegirl (15 September 2011)

Cayla Im so glad you took the diplomatic stance as I thought I was a tad harsh and abrupt.


----------



## cassie summers (15 September 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			Cassie I used to have a Battersea dogs home dog and like yours she used to come to work with me and sit under my desk all day. We always guessed she was a Beagle X Manchester Terrier black & tan(just my colour) and she was found tied up in a car park on Boxing day.
		
Click to expand...

they wouldnt let me have her untill my boss emailed her to say i could bring her to work she was originally called gypsey as thats where they thought she had come from but i changed her name as we have some "gypseys"down our lane and couldnt quite see me shouting "gypsey" if she went down the lane lol


----------



## CAYLA (15 September 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			Cayla Im so glad you took the diplomatic stance as I thought I was a tad harsh and abrupt.

Click to expand...

You know what DG, I really don't mind breeding of the responsible kind, but well this really is going to far imo, it seems today has brought in a flood of trolls, or the aad is turning into a version of pre loved/gum tree


----------



## littlemisslauren (15 September 2011)

CAYLA said:



			You know what DG, I really don't mind breeding of the responsible kind, but well this really is going to far imo, it seems today has brought in a flood of trolls, or the aad is turning into a version of pre loved/gum tree

Click to expand...

OIII! stop ignoring my ramble of a PM. Or I will start posting links to yorky poos or something similar.


----------



## Vizslak (15 September 2011)

We have had an odd few days here in aad for sure!


----------



## CAYLA (15 September 2011)

littlemisslauren said:



			OIII! stop ignoring my ramble of a PM. Or I will start posting links to yorky poos or something similar.

Click to expand...


I answered, I said yes we do have an entire Lhasa apso rescue (he will be done on monday mind), if you wanna use it on betsy, be quick!. I atleast want a pup, and no im not paying for it either


----------



## Dobiegirl (15 September 2011)

Unfortunately it just seems endemic(is that the right word) in todays society, even people with brains dont seem to give it a second thought. Things have got to change, I know most of us on here are well aware of the problem but its getting the message out to the wider public. Perhaps all the big dog charities could do a huge publicity spread on this and perhaps vets could play a part as well.


----------



## MurphysMinder (15 September 2011)

LOL Dg, Cayla is always so soft and fluffy with her answers isn't she.  Love the description of the rotti x dachs.
As someone who has already stated that I will hopefully be breeding from my bitch next year I am always a tad cautious about being criticial of other people, but there do seem to be a lot of cross bred litters on HHO at the moment.  In all fairness to the OP she hasn't given the pups a stupid "breed" name, and we don't know the mating wasn't accidental, and the pups are cute !


----------



## Katikins (15 September 2011)

*head desk* *head desk* *head desk*

Nuff said!!


----------



## fruity (15 September 2011)

Just to let you all know,these arn't 'special' cross breeds with a high price tag,they were bred FOR people, 3 are family homes which have been waiting for a puppy each,1 is for me and 1 is going to working a home. They are not being 'advertised' on here,yes I am in a lucky position that if for any reason they can't keep them I have a contract stating they come back to me,these weren't bred for the sake of breeding,3 pups had definate homes and 2 were homed before the pups were 21 days old (even if they hadn't of they wouldn't of gone anywhere) all pups are going within a 6 mile radius of my home. 1 to a close friend,1 to a behaviourist/ trainer (3 pups are attending her classes) 1 is going to a farm and 1 I'm keeping for myself. I work at a vets,pups and mum have had 5 star treatment and none of these puppies will be going to rescues,I know each one of the homes.


----------



## Vizslak (15 September 2011)

Were the parents health tested?
I'm glad they have homes to go to and you will take back for rehoming if neccessary.


----------



## TuscanBunnyGirl (15 September 2011)

They're so cute!!!  xx


----------



## hayinamanger (15 September 2011)

Scrumptious!


----------



## s4sugar (15 September 2011)

I have recently refused a vet a kitten - wanted to breed but hadn't a clue. In fact the home offered sounded so dodgy I put a heads up around fellow breeders.

I can't understand any vet practice sanctioning the deliberate breeding of an aged mongrel bitch where the owner clearly has not done any research.

I say mongrel because that is not a Manchester terrier x PRT. Her parents were probably long legged black & tan terrier mixes. I have known many people erroneously refer to these as Manchester terriers.

BTW OP, does PLL, vWD & PL mean anything?


----------



## fruity (15 September 2011)

Parents were both eye and hip scored,full health profile done and up to date with vacs.


----------



## s4sugar (15 September 2011)

Which test panel or CO did you use?

Patellas are not hips,


----------



## fruity (15 September 2011)

I'm very aware patella's arn't hips. Ours go to the BBA.


----------



## littlemisslauren (15 September 2011)

I really don't understand going to the bother of health testing to just breed crossbreed puppies.

Obviously it is preferable that it is done but I would think someone educated enough to health test would wish to breed pedigree. Maybe thats just my brain not functioning.

Would be interested to know the hip scores?


----------



## s4sugar (15 September 2011)

Do you mean the BVA?

They don't usually accept plates without registration & microchip numbers & they don't do eyes.


----------



## Cop-Pop (15 September 2011)

Goodness whats got into this place these days?  S4sugar - there is no need to act like the spanish inquisition!  Can I remind people that there have been plenty of more regular members who have bred crossbreed puppies who haven't been treated like criminals (one only a couple of threads below)   Yes I know there is a problem with irresponsible over breeding but quite frankly there is no need to be so rude!


----------



## fruity (15 September 2011)

Typo error on mobile,bva excepted mine,helps when you have contacts I guess? Clear eye cert was done by a bva Ophthalmologist.


----------



## s4sugar (15 September 2011)

Cop-Pop said:



			Goodness whats got into this place these days?  S4sugar - there is no need to act like the spanish inquisition!  Can I remind people that there have been plenty of more regular members who have bred crossbreed puppies who haven't been treated like criminals (one only a couple of threads below)   Yes I know there is a problem with irresponsible over breeding but quite frankly there is no need to be so rude!
		
Click to expand...

There is a big difference between deliberate breeding & whoops breedings and neither are approved of but some are tolerated.
IN this case there is a lot of BS -which does not stand for British Showjumping. 
The Op has contradicted herself several times and not answered direct questions. BTW canine opthamologists in the UK do not provide an official certificate without registration papers. 
I would love to see any documents the OP has and I do help organise eye testing sessions.


----------



## Vizslak (15 September 2011)

they dont do hips without registration either. 
Was VWD tested as well?


----------



## pelena (15 September 2011)

Cop-Pop said:



			Goodness whats got into this place these days?  S4sugar - there is no need to act like the spanish inquisition!  Can I remind people that there have been plenty of more regular members who have bred crossbreed puppies who haven't been treated like criminals (one only a couple of threads below)   Yes I know there is a problem with irresponsible over breeding but quite frankly there is no need to be so rude!
		
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree with you more. Whilst I disapprove of cross-breeding, I really think some people on here should reflect that basic courtesy is often much more effective at getting a point across.  And frankly, those who can't see in what way some of these posts come across as aggressive or rude need to review their manners.


----------



## fruity (15 September 2011)

Gosh if you were a pleasant person I'd be more than happy to provide the documents,as your not and from the start you were a complete cow then you can stuff it. Go ahead and say whatever you want,it must make you feel so good picking on the people on this forum. Go on feel free to keep slating,no matter what I say you'll come back with your sniping which is what you did in your op. We all have our own opinions on dogs,breeding.. Everything. Your bloody name should be Medusa on here,you probably look like her too.


----------



## fruity (15 September 2011)

If people who are 'nice' want to see proof then I am more than willing to provide,I used the eye specialist we refer too,i spoke to bva myself,will be talking to them regarding the views expressed today.


----------



## s4sugar (15 September 2011)

fruity said:



			Gosh if you were a pleasant person I'd be more than happy to provide the documents,as your not and from the start you were a complete cow then you can stuff it. Go ahead and say whatever you want,it must make you feel so good picking on the people on this forum. Go on feel free to keep slating,no matter what I say you'll come back with your sniping which is what you did in your op. We all have our own opinions on dogs,breeding.. Everything. Your bloody name should be Medusa on here,you probably look like her too.
		
Click to expand...

Showing your true colours.
All I have done is asked the questions any experienced breeder, breed rescuer or puppy buyer should ask.
On the other hand the OP has changed her story;- "Just to let you all know,these arn't 'special' cross breeds with a high price tag,they were bred FOR people, 3 are family homes which have been waiting for a puppy each,1 is for me and 1 is going to working a home. They are not being 'advertised' on here,yes I am in a lucky position that if for any reason they can't keep them I have a contract stating they come back to me,these weren't bred for the sake of breeding,3 pups had definate homes and 2 were homed before the pups were 21 days old (even if they hadn't of they wouldn't of gone anywhere) all pups are going within a 6 mile radius of my home. 1 to a close friend,1 to a behaviourist/ trainer (3 pups are attending her classes) 1 is going to a farm and 1 I'm keeping for myself. I work at a vets,pups and mum have had 5 star treatment and none of these puppies will be going to rescues,I know each one of the homes." as obviously they were NOT spoken for prior to the mating.

Still waiting for answers though especially why this mutt was bred from.

As for your insults - Medusa is quite cool, good super power to have!


----------



## fruity (15 September 2011)

Keep going love keep going. I don't need to explain anything to you.  True colours no,sticking up for myself yes. The way you talk about other peoples dogs is appalling,your manners amaze me.


----------



## wildwest (15 September 2011)

well im totally amazed at the replys op has got ......shame on you all
i for one think they are lovely bundles of fun ,and the pics made my day :}
crossbreds are wonderful family pets , i had my rotti full bred for 13 wonderful years , 
we have our husky full bred 5 so so years !!!
and our jrt crossbred 7 wonderful years, and shes as special as the others.
bet you have no probs finding them homes there gorg 
oh and sorry people have treated you like **** youve kept your head better than i would have x


----------



## Kaylum (15 September 2011)

To be honest its not just the breeders of cross breeds its the people buying them. I know an idiot at work bought a westie x and paid £400 (I kid you not).   The problem with these breeders is they cant be bothered to find a good dog thats the same breed as they cost too much and certainly would never use a good dog to cross the breed.  So makes you wonder what dogs they are using.  Just a mates down the road!   The more money they get for them for more they will breed.  So it goes on.........  Shame on people who think this is acceptable.  Get to the rescue centre if you want a cross breed for even a pedigree.


----------



## Cinnamontoast (15 September 2011)

Cop-Pop said:



			Goodness whats got into this place these days?  S4sugar - there is no need to act like the spanish inquisition!  Can I remind people that there have been plenty of more regular members who have bred crossbreed puppies who haven't been treated like criminals (one only a couple of threads below)   Yes I know there is a problem with irresponsible over breeding but quite frankly there is no need to be so rude!
		
Click to expand...




pelena said:



			I couldn't agree with you more. Whilst I disapprove of cross-breeding, I really think some people on here should reflect that basic courtesy is often much more effective at getting a point across.  And frankly, those who can't see in what way some of these posts come across as aggressive or rude need to review their manners.
		
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more. Dear me, no need at all. We are all aware of the issues of breeding non-pedigree dogs, but I'm really sad to see AAD living up to its reputation. I know for a fact that some people are put off posting in here because of the supposed unpleasantness, which I have never really seen in evidence until today. Really sad. 

If you don't approve, then don't reply to the thread. The OP is under no obligation to respond or prove herself in any way. So unfortunate.


----------



## fruity (15 September 2011)

Thank you someone nice  mum is a wonderful rat catcher and family friend,she is a very soppy girl and is fab with everything. Dad is a lovely working terrier,won many dog shows and is also fab with everything. I'd rather have a lovely little x breed that'll prob live a long healthy life than a more often than not in bred pure bred with health problems. My parents bred collies and I love my pure breeds but these are much loved parents and puppies and I am fortunate to be enough to be able to keep them if  they have problems with their homes in the future. So why not?


----------



## Dobiegirl (15 September 2011)

MM I feel a tad uneasy about breeding from Pip but remind myself she is on the KC vunerable list and it will only be after a succussful showing career and health testing.

OP you may or may not have had all the health tests done but your puppies are a mixture of god knows what and I am being honest here. You have no idea what they are going to look like or most importantly what their temperment is going to be. That to me smacks of irresponsible breeding and if some people dont like to hear the truth well tough titty. Lets just pat her on the back shall we and say well done.


----------



## clevelandbay (15 September 2011)

Gosh, never ventured into this section before and this thread is a bit of an eye opener!

I totally agree that breeding poor quality puppies in an irresponsible manner is wrong, but a dog doesn't have to be a pedigree to be a good dog.   My own mutt is 13, thinks she's 2, has no health problems to speak of (good sight, hearing, no joint problems and no behavioural problems) and is a hugely loved member of the family.  My mother in law in the time we've had my dog, has had 2 full pedigree dogs (german shepherd and border collie) that have had health problems and died under the age of 8.  

By the way, I had my bitch spayed.


----------



## Dobiegirl (15 September 2011)

CT really surprised at your response you of all people are aware of irresponsible breeding without health testing, your dogs if memory serves me correct are proof of it.


----------



## fruity (15 September 2011)

Can I please make it clear these puppies are from working parents,they are not a litter of 'lakemans' 'manlakes' or whatever the money stealing breeders try to sell. These are going to people I know for very little! They were NOT bred for money being the main thing. My little 'mutt' as s4shitebag said culls more rats and mice at my yard than my jrt,friends pure bred lakeland and patterdale do!


----------



## Dobiegirl (15 September 2011)

fruity said:



			Can I please make it clear these puppies are from working parents,they are not a litter of 'lakemans' 'manlakes' or whatever the money stealing breeders try to sell. These are going to people I know for very little! They were NOT bred for money being the main thing. My little 'mutt' as s4shitebag said culls more rats and mice at my yard than my jrt,friends pure bred lakeland and patterdale do!
		
Click to expand...

Medusa & now 4shitebag thats really nice and polite isnt it. You are the one throwing the insults in here.


----------



## Katikins (15 September 2011)

Once again people take these kind of opinions as a 'mongrels are all bad'!!  Nobody said that!  A lot of people who post on here frequently have rescue mongrels and adore them and admit they are fabulous dogs.  BUT, the rescue centres are overflowing and KILLING healthy dogs because people keep breeding cross breeds!  Why would ANYONE add to the list of dogs in the world when you can get puppies from a rescue centre and therefore save another dog from death?

If you are getting a pedigree then it is quite often a different matter... but I see NO reason AT ALL for justifying breeding cross breeds.  If you can give me one reason that can stand up fire away... but I highly doubt it!


----------



## Katikins (15 September 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			Medusa & now 4shitebag thats really nice and polite isnt it. You are the one throwing the insults in here.
		
Click to expand...

DG, some people just have an inability to have an adult conversation with someone without reverting to insults if people don't agree with their point of view.  As my mother always said, once you start calling names, you've lost the argument.


----------



## Dobiegirl (15 September 2011)

Katikins said:



			DG, some people just have an inability to have an adult conversation with someone without reverting to insults if people don't agree with their point of view.  As my mother always said, once you start calling names, you've lost the argument.
		
Click to expand...

You put it better than I ever could.


----------



## Camel (15 September 2011)

Not much makes me literally 'lol' (how ever many times I type I do!!) but 



fruity said:



			as s4shitebag said
		
Click to expand...

this really did - and fair play to her! unbelieveably rude comments on her 

xx


----------



## fruity (15 September 2011)

No I was not throwing insults until me and my dog and her puppies were being called cruel names! I am done and that is all,believe me as others have put I have been rather light back considering what that poster has said!


----------



## Kaylum (15 September 2011)

Katikins said:



			Once again people take these kind of opinions as a 'mongrels are all bad'!!  Nobody said that!  A lot of people who post on here frequently have rescue mongrels and adore them and admit they are fabulous dogs.  BUT, the rescue centres are overflowing and KILLING healthy dogs because people keep breeding cross breeds!  Why would ANYONE add to the list of dogs in the world when you can get puppies from a rescue centre and therefore save another dog from death?

If you are getting a pedigree then it is quite often a different matter... but I see NO reason AT ALL for justifying breeding cross breeds.  If you can give me one reason that can stand up fire away... but I highly doubt it!
		
Click to expand...

Exactly!


----------



## Vizslak (15 September 2011)

Katikins said:



			DG, some people just have an inability to have an adult conversation with someone without reverting to insults if people don't agree with their point of view.  As my mother always said, once you start calling names, you've lost the argument.
		
Click to expand...

indeed


----------



## fruity (15 September 2011)

Can I please add I did not start with the tit for tat names,I am not usually like that but the person in question was being very nasty and there was no call to be like that,have noticed a few of you are 'friends' of hers on here so blaming me is expected of course. That's fine as I said we all have an opinion.


----------



## Cop-Pop (15 September 2011)

Katikins said:



			DG, some people just have an inability to have an adult conversation with someone without reverting to insults if people don't agree with their point of view.  As my mother always said, once you start calling names, you've lost the argument.
		
Click to expand...

Tbf its not people disagreeing with thier POV it's people immediately jumping on them and being insulting.  If this was my only experience of this section of the forum I certainly wouldn't be coming back.  I'm aware that feelings run high when it comes to breeding but common decency costs nothing.  S4sugar and other regular posters set the tone at the very beginning (tho I dont condone name calling from either poster).


----------



## Vizslak (15 September 2011)

fruity said:



			No I was not throwing insults until me and my dog and her puppies were being called cruel names! I am done and that is all,believe me as others have put I have been rather light back considering what that poster has said!
		
Click to expand...

Nobody called you, your dog or pups any rude names. 
People on here feel very strongly about breeding of x breds. They were not working dogs produced for working homes at all, you already said only one is going to a working home. You cant have it all ways.


----------



## fruity (15 September 2011)

I havn't really ventured onto the 'dog' area much before either,I won't be returning,contructive views yes,being plain horrible is not,I was only sticking up for my poor dog being called a 'mutt',would you allow someone to say that about your dog? X breed or not?


----------



## Vizslak (15 September 2011)

erm yes. My lurcher is a 'mutt' and I dont take offence at that. Infact I'm pretty sure even the pure breds get called mutt on a regular basis.


----------



## Katikins (15 September 2011)

fruity said:



			I was only sticking up for my poor dog being called a 'mutt',would you allow someone to say that about your dog? X breed or not?
		
Click to expand...

What is the difference between calling them mongrels or mutts or cross breeds?  I really don't think that mutt is an offensive term and frequently called my KC registered pedigree spaniels that.  So yes, I would allow someone to use that term.


----------



## Dobiegirl (15 September 2011)

So the op is going to play the victim card because we do not agree with her and all us who have disagreed are friends and are all in cohorts against her and her little puppies.

As I said way way back a lot of people on here are involved in rescue and this situation is not going to make them happy because they deal in situations like this day in and day out and are rightly sickened by it.


----------



## littlemisslauren (15 September 2011)

fruity said:



			I havn't really ventured onto the 'dog' area much before either,I won't be returning,contructive views yes,being plain horrible is not,I was only sticking up for my poor dog being called a 'mutt',would you allow someone to say that about your dog? X breed or not?
		
Click to expand...

I regulary call my pedigree a mutt. Mutt / Mongrel are not offensive IMO just descriptions of types of dog.


----------



## Cinnamontoast (15 September 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			CT really surprised at your response you of all people are aware of irresponsible breeding without health testing, your dogs if memory serves me correct are proof of it.
		
Click to expand...

One dog, the others are fine, thanks. 

I am against breeding without health testing, most certainly. But what I am even more against is the excessively rude way that some people have responded. I don't think it was necessary after the initial posts. Certainly, no-one needs to descend into insults, be it the OP or someone replying. 

Education is extremely important in this area: sadly, the only thing the OP is going to learn here is that some people are incredibly rude. It's a shame, as I've no doubt she or anyone would benefit from the knowledge and experience of those who have much to convey. 

I find that shouting teaches less than reason and a measure of sensitivity.


----------



## Vizslak (15 September 2011)

One in three isnt good odds! 
The only crazy insults flung have been by the OP as far as I can see. Ok so S4S hasnt been pink marshmallows and fairys in her replies and they are rather blunt but she is only saying what the rest of us are thinking.


----------



## quirky (15 September 2011)

Wow, there seems to be a bunch of rabid dogs on the loose .


----------



## Dobiegirl (15 September 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			One dog, the others are fine, thanks. 

I am against breeding without health testing, most certainly. But what I am even more against is the excessively rude way that some people have responded. I don't think it was necessary after the initial posts. Certainly, no-one needs to descend into crazy insults.
		
Click to expand...

The only one trading insults on this thread is the op who insulted S4Sugar as Medusa & S4Sugarshitebag. Dont believe me, go back and read all the posts.


----------



## Puppy (15 September 2011)

Cop-Pop said:



			Goodness whats got into this place these days?  S4sugar - there is no need to act like the spanish inquisition!  Can I remind people that there have been plenty of more regular members who have bred crossbreed puppies who haven't been treated like criminals (one only a couple of threads below)   Yes I know there is a problem with irresponsible over breeding but quite frankly there is no need to be so rude!
		
Click to expand...

Well said


----------



## fruity (15 September 2011)

I am not playing the victim,i was using mutt as one of the many negative terms she called my dog. Well maybe i was being a little 'sensitive' but can you blame me after the abuse i received! Yes i am well aware of the crisis going on in the rescue centres,so many Staffs etc,these puppies have homes and like i said i would keep them if a problem should arise so no i don't think i'm being a bad breeder,in fact i'm doing all i can to be a good breeder,the amount of worm ridden badly looked after pure bred puppies that come into work,in fact i think i'm doing a pretty good job with my puppies.


----------



## CAYLA (15 September 2011)

To be fair CT, everyone spouts the whole "I will not be returning" when things don't go there way, and believe it or not some folk feel that way about other things mentioned on the forum be it training/food/feeding advice/neutering, not just back street breeding, I have noted a fair few being named as bad owners for feeding bad food or not feeding barf, so literally folk will pick and choose what is offensive/offending on the day.

I have skim read, but caught the usual (x breeds are healthier) there is NO evidence of this what so ever apart from the usual example of my x breed lives this long and my pedigree never. This proves little as the pedigree could have been back street bred too. 
Its not only X breeds that are back street bred and I disagree with that too.
My problem with random x breeding is the fact that you are crossing in most cases dogs that really should not be crossed due their traits/breed descriptions, this= a very difficult dog which in turn = behavioural issues hard for some to deal with= get rid of the dog, also as I stated you cannot in most cases tell what they dogs will end up looking like (unlike a pedigree, you can do your homework (granted a some DON'T bother) in regard to traits, see the parents for a visual of what you puppy will END up looking like.
I have seen some hideous looking X breeds and believe me they would have looked CUTE as pie when purchased and this was indeed enough for the purchaser to get shot of the dog.


----------



## Dobiegirl (15 September 2011)

fruity said:



			I am not playing the victim,i was using mutt as one of the many negative terms she called my dog. Well maybe i was being a little 'sensitive' but can you blame me after the abuse i received! Yes i am well aware of the crisis going on in the rescue centres,so many Staffs etc,these puppies have homes and like i said i would keep them if a problem should arise so no i don't think i'm being a bad breeder,in fact i'm doing all i can to be a good breeder,the amount of worm ridden badly looked after pure bred puppies that come into work,in fact i think i'm doing a pretty good job with my puppies.
		
Click to expand...

What abuse?

My Battersea dogs home dog was a wonderful ratter and cattle dog, would I have considered breeding from her no,if she had puppies could I have rehomed  yes, she was a very popular pretty dog. So why didnt I breed from her? because there are too many dogs in rescue chasing  too few homes. Its a no brainer isnt it.


----------



## ladyt25 (15 September 2011)

This thread is quite shocking in the way people have responded. I certainly do not condone breeding for the sake of breeding but some people really have come across as being holier than thou' on this thread. I am not sure why some people seem to think they are better or 'above' the OP because they only breed or would buy a purebred dog. Surely there are pure bred dogs also that turn up in rescues?? Not all of these will have been from backstreet breeders I am sure. So, why is it better for people to be breeding ANY dog en mass??

It's greed essentially in most cases - the extortionate prices people put on dogs never ceases to amaze me.

All the dogs we have ever had have been x-breeds whether intentional ones or not and most dogs I see about are a x of some description. If the OP has got homes for all these puppies then I don't see what the real issue is - it is no more risky than a top breeder selling their dogs - at the end of the day they have no way of guaranteeing what will happen in the long run to the puppies they sell.

Also, I am not sure why this poster isbeing slated when the post for "Hatties Puppies" just seems to be getting a positive response? Bit odd that!


----------



## SplashofSoy (15 September 2011)

Katikins said:



			If you are getting a pedigree then it is quite often a different matter... but I see NO reason AT ALL for justifying breeding cross breeds.  If you can give me one reason that can stand up fire away... but I highly doubt it!
		
Click to expand...

I have read this thread with interest.  I dont agree with indiscriminant breeding of unsuitable dogs and this has all got a bit out of hand with some of the comments made on both sides which i dont like either.  But i do have to take issue with this particular statement.  Pedigrees are not the be all and end all, dogs such as terriers and lurchers are bred with a completely different purpose and crossing is all part of that.  I have spent especially in recent months a lot of time with working terriermen and at working terrier shows/terrier racing etc.  A lot of these dogs are cross bred and you wouldnt recognise a working lakeland and a pedigree one if you stood them side by side as even being the same breed.  Especially in terriers there is very little concern for pedigree in the KC sense. It is all about working ability and temprement and crosses are frequent to breed a great terrier.  These cannot be obtained from rescues.  This doesnt mean they should be common place and anybody should just go and have a litter.  My terrier pup may be a cross breed but i have a list of his breeding back 5 generations as he comes from champion working stock which would never go anywhere near crufts or the like but has not come away from a working terrier show without being placed. 

God that turned out longer than expected.  Very cute pups as most puppies are cute.


----------



## Vizslak (15 September 2011)

No it isnt. And as explained on that thread those pups forum members believed were a not only a total accident but found out too late to do anything about. This appears to not be the whole truth as it turns out. Both litters of pups are 'cute' Hatties pups wont look so cute if they have inherited all their dads health problems though.


----------



## Vizslak (15 September 2011)

SplashofSoy said:



			I have read this thread with interest.  I dont agree with indiscriminant breeding of unsuitable dogs and this has all got a bit out of hand with some of the comments made on both sides which i dont like either.  But i do have to take issue with this particular statement.  Pedigrees are not the be all and end all, dogs such as terriers and lurchers are bred with a completely different purpose and crossing is all part of that.  I have spent especially in recent months a lot of time with working terriermen and at working terrier shows/terrier racing etc.  A lot of these dogs are cross bred and you wouldnt recognise a working lakeland and a pedigree one if you stood them side by side as even being the same breed.  Especially in terriers there is very little concern for pedigree in the KC sense. It is all about working ability and temprement and crosses are frequent to breed a great terrier.  These cannot be obtained from rescues.  This doesnt mean they should be common place and anybody should just go and have a litter.  My terrier pup may be a cross breed but i have a list of his breeding back 5 generations as he comes from champion working stock which would never go anywhere near crufts or the like but has not come away from a working terrier show without being placed. 

God that turned out longer than expected.  Very cute pups as most puppies are cute.
		
Click to expand...

I totally agree with all of this. No problem with working dogs crossed and bred for working homes, as long as they arent shelling them out to the general public to make a quick buck.


----------



## SplashofSoy (15 September 2011)

Vizslak said:



			I totally agree with all of this. No problem with working dogs crossed and bred for working homes, as long as they arent shelling them out to the general public to make a quick buck.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely agreed, just had to answer the question raised and no true working terrier breeder would really do it to make money anyway.


----------



## Dobiegirl (15 September 2011)

Maybe a numptie question but if these pups are going to working homes wouldnt they be docked.?


----------



## Alec Swan (15 September 2011)

fruity,

what a lovely litter of puppies.  Very well done!  Were they mine,  I'd be as proud as you are (or were!). 

Alec.


----------



## Vizslak (15 September 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			Maybe a numptie question but if these pups are going to working homes wouldnt they be docked.?
		
Click to expand...

Yes


----------



## Cop-Pop (15 September 2011)

Vizslak said:



			I totally agree with all of this. No problem with working dogs crossed and bred for working homes, as long as they arent shelling them out to the general public to make a quick buck.
		
Click to expand...

Working homes aren't always perfect and are no more guaranteed than a non working home.  My BiL is a farmer and has been for years.  In recent years (since I've known him) he has helped to rehome countless working dogs because theyre no longer wanted - not all of these are crossbreed ones.  Sometimes it was because they weren't good enough and other times it was because they werent needed.  When I was younger I had a collie x - she was an amazing herding dog but when her owner shut her leg in the tractor door and broke it he didnt want her anymore   Yellow Dog was bred to work - hes probably done about three days in 8 years


----------



## Katikins (15 September 2011)

SplashofSoy said:



			Absolutely agreed.
		
Click to expand...

OK, that was my bad, I should have been more clear.  I realise a lot of working terriers/lurcher are cross bred although they usually also have homes lined up before the pups are even born.  I'm referring to cross breeding just for the sake of breeding with no actual 'purpose' to it.  I maintain that if you want a cross breed as a pet... go to a rescue.  Even if you want a puppy there are plenty in rescue centres.

Also, by the pedigree statement, I meant people who want a pedigree puppy from proven lines that is health checked etc.


----------



## quirky (15 September 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			Maybe a numptie question but if these pups are going to working homes wouldnt they be docked.?
		
Click to expand...

That's not always the case, no.
Well not in the working dogs I have seen.
I guess it's up to the breeder if they choose to dock or not.


----------



## Vizslak (15 September 2011)

For sure you are right CP but there are far fewer bred and MOST as in the very high proportion stay in their homes and do their job. Also very few of them end up in a rescue, they often change hands for sure but dont generally end up in rescue centres.


----------



## fruity (15 September 2011)

My puppy will be working and the one off to the farm will,they were bred for working but it just so happened 'family' homes were interested also,I think it's nice that the litter are going to a bit of both. Dad is a very well bred Lakeland,he and my bitch work together and make a fab team,the puppies will be going to homes close to me and I am over the moon with that,I'm sorry if some of you think what I've done is so bad but I know I am taking care of the pups very well and they will have a wonderful life,all homes are very happy with their puppies. I can assure you the decision to breed what not a whim,it was thought about for a long time.


----------



## SplashofSoy (15 September 2011)

Cop-Pop said:



			Sometimes it was because they weren't good enough
		
Click to expand...

This made me smile as i thought of my aunt and uncles old springer, bred out of fab working parents and would retrieve anything provided it didnt have feathers, as wouldnt have feathers in its mouth!

Fruity it sounds like you have given this a lot of thought and are prepared if the pups need to come back etc.  Hope the people having them really enjoy the pups.


----------



## fruity (15 September 2011)

May I again stress that I have a contract set up in the event circumstances change for the owner the pup is to come back to me.


----------



## stez1234 (15 September 2011)

I think some of you on here are unnecessarily harsh. I have been on the receiving end of this, and I does put people off and stops them asking for help here.

In this instance I think you need to turn your attention away from the OP who has homes for these puppies and turn it to stopping programs encouraging cross breeding and designer dog. I am watching dogs 101 on animal planet it is going through a loads of cross breeds saying what makes good crosses and encouraging the breeding of these crosses.


----------



## BBH (15 September 2011)

ladyt25 said:



			This thread is quite shocking in the way people have responded. I certainly do not condone breeding for the sake of breeding but some people really have come across as being holier than thou' on this thread. I am not sure why some people seem to think they are better or 'above' the OP because they only breed or would buy a purebred dog. Surely there are pure bred dogs also that turn up in rescues?? Not all of these will have been from backstreet breeders I am sure. So, why is it better for people to be breeding ANY dog en mass??

It's greed essentially in most cases - the extortionate prices people put on dogs never ceases to amaze me.

All the dogs we have ever had have been x-breeds whether intentional ones or not and most dogs I see about are a x of some description. If the OP has got homes for all these puppies then I don't see what the real issue is - it is no more risky than a top breeder selling their dogs - at the end of the day they have no way of guaranteeing what will happen in the long run to the puppies they sell.

Also, I am not sure why this poster is being slated when the post for "Hatties Puppies" just seems to be getting a positive response? Bit odd that!
		
Click to expand...


^^^^^^^^^^ This This This

Its been like a pack mentality on this thread and not nice to read.

Its not about crossbreeds or pedigree IMO there are just too many puppies being bred by people that have no interest at all in their welfare. When I asked why british bulldogs are now finding their way into rescue homes when 5 years ago they were like hens teeth I was told on their forum that breeders have increased in  volume to ' better and enhance' the breed. Bloomin Bolloclks its because a litter can command £12k+  and nothing else. 

The OP has some gorgeous little puppies there and they all have good homes to go to, which is more than can be said for loads of pedigree litters.


----------



## CAYLA (15 September 2011)

I agree, it certainly is not just about pedigree versus X breeds, as there are as many badly bred ill thought out pedigrees. I do believe that breeding is mainly about greed and a quick buck. Even if you want a pup from your fantastical bitch, bitches rarely have 1 pup and im damn well sure that even though some/most folk are saying "oh we can offer back up". Things change, either financially/space wise/taking back a dog thats an issue either the dog it's self or your own dogs (esp a larger breed) unless you have kennels to house the dog.
Maybe some comments are a bit harsh, but the OP was very mishmash with the breed of the bitch to start with which straight away started folk thinking.

We cannot even as a rescue track the dogs 100% as hard as we try, we can chip them to us and neuter them so atleast the pups of the pups of the pups don't end up god knows where, as lest not forget about the breeding that will go on and on and on from these dogs.
We have a huge over breeding problem in this country, and still someone always has an excuse to NEED to breed.
Even as a rescue it makes me cringe a little when folk say (you should have took a rescue/you could have saved a staffy) I know folk do not want certain breeds and as within their right to get what they need/want at the time and rescues can be difficult, but it would be nice if we could do it a little more responsibly. 
The OP has certainly been more responsible than the west x j.r.t post for sure.

The other post re the shih-tzu, thats a pedigree but folk are still not saying "oh breed, you must" they are giving reasons not too or atleast food for thought.
If some folk stop and think when reading some of these posts then maybe less    
willy nilly breeding will go on.
The pups are cute of course (all pups are)


----------



## BBH (15 September 2011)

I agree with everything said but I thought it was very sad that the OP posted pictures of her puppies like zillions of others on here, that we love to see and she was jumped on and accused of  being a backstreet breeder without any concern or thought for her circumstances.

There are others on here who breed for money and have a zoo of animals, regularly posts and never gets anything put praise and nice comments, never mind well wouldn't it be better if you worked for a living not just dog breed as a means of income.

Its double standards.


----------



## Fools Motto (15 September 2011)

BBH said:



			I agree with everything said but I thought it was very sad that the OP posted pictures of her puppies like zillions of others on here, that we love to see and she was jumped on and accused of  being a backstreet breeder without any concern or thought for her circumstances.

There are others on here who breed for money and have a zoo of animals, regularly posts and never gets anything put praise and nice comments, never mind well wouldn't it be better if you worked for a living not just dog breed as a means of income.

Its double standards.
		
Click to expand...

Leaping in with a huge agreement here.
I wanted to look at this post and see puppies. The last thing I thought I'd be doing is reading this marathon thread while going 'oh how mean, poor OP, she only wanted to show them off' - and quite rightly so.
If I told everyone of how I came to be with my dog, then I guess, according to this I'd have had my throat slit as that was an accidental breeding, and got money from it!! Jimmenny crippers!! (- I know, not really English is it?) I'd better get digging my grave. lol

I am with Fruity here, giving her a hug - I think she deserves it after this!!


----------



## Vizslak (15 September 2011)

BBH said:



			I agree with everything said but I thought it was very sad that the OP posted pictures of her puppies like zillions of others on here, that we love to see and she was jumped on and accused of  being a backstreet breeder without any concern or thought for her circumstances.

There are others on here who breed for money and have a zoo of animals, regularly posts and never gets anything put praise and nice comments, never mind well wouldn't it be better if you worked for a living not just dog breed as a means of income.

Its double standards.
		
Click to expand...

I dont know anyone on here who breeds as sole income and constantly get nice comments in relation to breeding. 
No double standards here.


----------



## SusieT (15 September 2011)

Agree with BBH
Most terriers I meet (particularly jack russels) are bred with no thought and no homes to go to. So long as she has homes for the pups, mum and dad are healthy-I don't really have an issue with one litter, providing she's happy to take back pups as required. 
I have more issue with breeding dogs that can't breathe because they are 'pedigree' then I do with healthy dogs being crossed-pedigreees came about by someone breeding dogs to fit a certain characteristic.


----------



## Dobiegirl (15 September 2011)

If I still had my Battersea dogs home bitch(mongrel) and wanted to breed from her someone on here would enlighten me to the realities of the situation, rightly so. 

I have seen no evidence of double standards on AAD just a bunch of people who love dogs not just their own but all dogs and a load of people on here are involved with rescue.


----------



## BBH (15 September 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			If I still had my Battersea dogs home bitch(mongrel) and wanted to breed from her someone on here would enlighten me to the realities of the situation, rightly so. 

I have seen no evidence of double standards on AAD just a bunch of people who love dogs not just their own but all dogs and a load of people on here are involved with rescue.
		
Click to expand...


I clearly can't mention poster / posters but they'd be known. 

I've said my bit and what I think. I'm not having the diatribe aimed at me now for trying to defend the OP's right to show her pictures without having to defend herself for breeding them in the first place.

My last comment on the thread.


----------



## fruity (15 September 2011)

Thank you all,I told my little bitch how much I love her and her puppies today and how special they all were to me. I gave much much thought to breeding,got to know the sire over 2 years and had both mum and dad work together before I decided to go for it. I am a once only breeder for good reasons I think,I did breed for the pups to work which is a purpose,it just so happens that they are also going to family homes,the word spread about the mum and dad being:  A) good at their job B) fab with children,horses,other dogs,also being very obedient for terriers! Both come out on our estate hacking with me and not once have they ran off,always keeping in front of the horse and obeying every command. C) such loving and loyal dogs,with very good health. I didn't really sell them,people just heard via mouth. All gone before 3 wks old,which sais something surely!


----------



## MrVelvet (15 September 2011)

Vizslak said:



			erm yes. My lurcher is a 'mutt' and I dont take offence at that. Infact I'm pretty sure even the pure breds get called mutt on a regular basis.
		
Click to expand...

well she took offence!! send her to me and Lola right away..!! 

Lolas a mutt too.. i guess, although a very high up superior mutt! 

I dont disagree with Xbreeds as I dont know enough to comment and of course my beautiful Lola is saluki type thing X god knows!! All I think is .. there are enough puppies and doggies around. If I were to breed a litter, I would want forever homes guaranteed for all of them... which I think is nigh on impossible to do. Pretty Pedigrees with proven this and that, that everyone knows what theyre going to turn into will also sell and have homes (even some of those end up in rescues though, I hasten to add!) ... what my ramblings are supposed to be getting across is... there are lots and lots of average puppies without homes.. theres no need to add to them surely? 

and (I may be wrong, as I dont know much) with pedigree breeding, you can select good temperament and conformation but with X breeds the worser traits may well show.


----------



## lula (15 September 2011)

fruity said:



			I havn't really ventured onto the 'dog' area much before either,I won't be returning,contructive views yes,being plain horrible is not,I was only sticking up for my poor dog being called a 'mutt',would you allow someone to say that about your dog? X breed or not?
		
Click to expand...



i call my dog a 'mutt' all the time. i think its just another name for a cross breed. please dont feel insulted although i undertsand you probably took it that way.

btw, if you dont mind me asking where you're based? im on the northants/oxon/bucks border myself, we could be neighbours!

good luck with your pups. 

lula x


----------



## ester (15 September 2011)

Katikins said:



			Once again people take these kind of opinions as a 'mongrels are all bad'!!  Nobody said that!  A lot of people who post on here frequently have rescue mongrels and adore them and admit they are fabulous dogs.  BUT, the rescue centres are overflowing and KILLING healthy dogs because people keep breeding cross breeds!  Why would ANYONE add to the list of dogs in the world when you can get puppies from a rescue centre and therefore save another dog from death?

If you are getting a pedigree then it is quite often a different matter... but I see NO reason AT ALL for justifying breeding cross breeds.  If you can give me one reason that can stand up fire away... but I highly doubt it!
		
Click to expand...

regular lurker wading in to huge thread!....

katikins your post just made me think, am not sure I can see justification for breeding pedigrees either. They are only pedigrees because we deem them so and have created said variation. I do admit to finding it hard not just to see a dog as a dog whatever it is and that the breed of dog (or not) may not indicate the care taken by the owner in its breeding.

*awaits enlightening*


----------



## Cedars (15 September 2011)

OP, I really hope you have had them health tested and you're not just saying you have to keep us here quiet.

If you HAVENT had them tested, please go to my recent threads (and my not so recent threads) about my dog Chloe. Just to understand what sort of a life you're giving these dogs.


----------



## padderpaws (15 September 2011)

What a bunch of sanctimonious nut cases.  I thought the photo's were lovely and your bitch is very pretty. I am sure all of the puppies will have good homes in the not too distant future.  I for one appreciated the pics.


----------



## -Sj- (15 September 2011)

You're puppies are just lovely! Well done to your wee mummy!!

In my opinion, your thread has been taken over and spammed out by a bunch of keyboard bullies!!!!  I know plenty people who have had expensive pedigrees ect and ended up with all sorts of "known breed" health issues! Better off with a wee heinz doggy sometimes!


----------



## Dobiegirl (15 September 2011)

-Sj- said:



			You're puppies are just lovely! Well done to your wee mummy!!

In my opinion, your thread has been taken over and spammed out by a bunch of keyboard bullies!!!!  I know plenty people who have had expensive pedigrees ect and ended up with all sorts of "known breed" health issues! Better off with a wee heinz doggy sometimes!
		
Click to expand...

So how many rescues are you responsible for sometimes.


----------



## -Sj- (15 September 2011)

You've spammed the womans post out to 11 pages!! Just go away and start another thread if you want to discuss crossbreeds and rescues!


----------



## Roasted Chestnuts (15 September 2011)

Cripes you lot are nasty in here arent you?? 

The puppies are already here so all the waffling about breeding is pretty much redundant now. We had an entire Gordon setter but we never bred from him despite several people asking, reason - he has a TERRIBLE hip scoring. Miss him terribley we had him PTS not long ago as he was really showing sore hips 

OP your pups are lovely just like every other puppy that enters the world. Would say though unless your breeding for breed developement I would spay your bitch. We kept ben entire to show, if we werent doing that he would have been done. If I ever get another dog it will be neutered as I dont believe in breeding. Plenty of lovely pups needing a home.


----------



## CAYLA (15 September 2011)

-Sj- said:



			You're puppies are just lovely! Well done to your wee mummy!!

In my opinion, your thread has been taken over and spammed out by a bunch of keyboard bullies!!!!  I know plenty people who have had expensive pedigrees ect and ended up with all sorts of "known breed" health issues! Better off with a wee heinz doggy sometimes!
		
Click to expand...

Why? wee heinz dogs are prone to health issues too and the price of these wee heinz dogs are over taking the price of pedigrees, because folk are fickle and love a made up "out there name" and think they are problem free in regards to ill health clearly
Those pedigrees you speak of could well have also been back street bred, and you still get the "known issues" with X breeds, you just 2 lots of issues which some folk cannot pin point to bitch or dog as they do not associate related issues because its a x, like in the other post, atleast those purchasing them who read this forum will "Know" the digestive and skin issues came from the father! 
Still, I don't think it's a X breed versus pedigree. otherwise why are folk advising the shih-tzu owner not to breed without thought?


----------



## -Sj- (15 September 2011)

Very nasty indeed! Seems to be a little kleek of nasties in this section!!

You guys have already started another thread on the subject of crossbreeds perhaps you should take your opinions in there rather than keep coming back to this ladies thread!!


----------



## Dobiegirl (15 September 2011)

-Sj- said:



			You've spammed the womans post out to 11 pages!! Just go away and start another thread if you want to discuss crossbreeds and rescues!
		
Click to expand...

And you are a troll.


----------



## -Sj- (15 September 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			And you are a troll.
		
Click to expand...


PMSL!! I rest my case!! 

Hopefully OP will report this for a clean up!!


----------



## lula (15 September 2011)

-Sj- said:



			You're puppies are just lovely! Well done to your wee mummy!!

In my opinion, your thread has been taken over and spammed out by a bunch of keyboard bullies!!!!  I know plenty people who have had expensive pedigrees ect and ended up with all sorts of "known breed" health issues! Better off with a wee heinz doggy sometimes!
		
Click to expand...

coz the wee heinz doggys are just the fluffiezt cutiez wutest


----------



## Vizslak (15 September 2011)

-Sj- said:



			Very nasty indeed! Seems to be a little kleek of nasties in this section!!

You guys have already started another thread on the subject of crossbreeds perhaps you should take your opinions in there rather than keep coming back to this ladies thread!!
		
Click to expand...

It's clique.


----------



## -Sj- (15 September 2011)

Well you knew what was meant! 

You must be very proud of it since it makes your sig!! 
Makes me feel very sad that grown women would act in this manner


----------



## Vizslak (15 September 2011)

the sig is a joke


----------



## -Sj- (15 September 2011)

It might be a joke to you dear, but people can be easily hurt and upset by the kind of things you and your clique have said! There was no need for the way things have progresed in this thread and IMO it's yourselves that have carried it on through the evening for your own entertainment! 

Jeez, take up bingo or summit!! LOL!!


----------



## lula (16 September 2011)

-Sj- said:



			Well you knew what was meant! 

You must be very proud of it since it makes your sig!! 
Makes me feel very sad that grown women would act in this manner
		
Click to expand...

if that makes you sad you should see how i act. 

it would make you cry.

actually it makes me cry too but thats usually when i have a really baaaad hangover.
you should come out for a drink some time, you sound like a barrel of fun.


----------



## Pix (16 September 2011)

-Sj- said:



			You're puppies are just lovely! Well done to your wee mummy!!

In my opinion, your thread has been taken over and spammed out by a bunch of keyboard bullies!!!!  I know plenty people who have had expensive pedigrees ect and ended up with all sorts of "known breed" health issues! Better off with a wee heinz doggy sometimes!
		
Click to expand...

Genetics don't work that way. A mixed bag of genes is just that... a mixed bag of the unknown. It doesn't make the dog inherently better or worse than a pedigree. The only real difference is the prospective owner knows which heritable faults to look for with a particular breed and, more importantly, can examine the dog's line for previous faults. Remember, a pup isn't a 50/50 mix of just the damn and sire. There can be all kinds of things going on 'further up the line' that are not immediately obvious or do now show up in one either of the parents. Just look at Belyaev's foxes- there was a reason that, despite breeding only the most 'docile' of the initial population, he was still able to create both a docile and an aggressive population (by removing the kits with heightened aggression during the initial generations and putting them into a separate breeding plan. These more 'aggressive' kits came from the same 'score as friendly' litters that the eventual docile/domesticated kits did).

Obviously a pedigree dog does not guarantee you utter perfection. If it did there would be no need for health tests or breeders trying to improve the quality of their dogs, be it for conformation, temperament or working ability. Just saying that a mix won't necessarily give you perfection either. Each dog is, after all, an individual 

I will stop speaking now 

Good luck with your pups OP, I'm sure they'll be lovely little dogs and do their new owners (who are no doubt right now awaiting the day they come home with much anticipation) quite proud. Well done for getting homes lined up and contracting that they come back to you should anything go wrong, a responsibility that is often over looked, ignored or just completely disregarded (shame, to me at least it's one of the best things a breeder can do!).

(Re: the rescue part of the debate. Those families that are taking these pups may well have done as well or better with a worthy rescue case, particularly as the litter seems to have been bred for working. But they are here now, and they all have homes lined up.)


----------



## Vizslak (16 September 2011)

There is no clique. I have altered my sig just for you and others that are incapable of humour. So there are no misunderstandings


----------



## Dobiegirl (16 September 2011)

So we should have said to the op well done, lovely puppies, breed some more thats just what we need more dogs to fill the rescues.

We live in the real world and are fully aware of the growing dog population, there are more dogs than there are homes for them and I guess it wont be people like you picking up the pieces and dealing with peoples irresponsible breeding.


----------



## lula (16 September 2011)

this thread has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous..


----------



## Pix (16 September 2011)

I got my post count up to 748 in the vain hopes of one day being invited into the clique- and now I am told there is none. Well, eff you. Eff you all! I want back all those minutes I've spent making drunken, nonsensical but nonetheless _really salient to the issue_ posts.

I've had enough of this effing rubbish. I'm going to join the petforum thingy or one of them other ones. Bet the soddin wine list is better too.


----------



## -Sj- (16 September 2011)

Get a grip!! I don't post much on here, I'm more a lurker and like the horse part of the forum. Just felt strongly that yous were going at this poor woman like she was the cause of all doggies ending up in rescue centres!!

If sitting on a forum slagging people off is your idea of fun..... then you really need to get out more!! 

I'm more of a motor junkie myself, but yes I do understand what you are saying pix


----------



## Dobiegirl (16 September 2011)

Pix said:



			I got my post count up to 748 in the vain hopes of one day being invited into the clique- and now I am told there is none. Well, eff you. Eff you all! I want back all those minutes I've spent making drunken, nonsensical but nonetheless _really salient to the issue_ posts.

I've had enough of this effing rubbish. I'm going to join the petforum thingy or one of them other ones. Bet the soddin wine list is better too.
		
Click to expand...

Was there a clique, I didnt know, wasnt invited, was it cos my dogs is black. Is it cos Im old. Im really upset.

Dont go on that pet forum thingy they are not allowed to talk about cross breeds in there and there is someone in there really scary, makes Cayla look like a pussy cat.


----------



## Vizslak (16 September 2011)

Oh fun, yes of course FUN is the motivation for the replies. Blimey what planet are you on? 
Pix the wine list is rubbish over there that's why I stayed in here.


----------



## lula (16 September 2011)

-Sj- said:



			Get a grip!! I don't post much on here, I'm more a lurker and like the horse part of the forum. Just felt strongly that yous were going at this poor woman like she was the cause of all doggies ending up in rescue centres!!

If sitting on a forum slagging people off is your idea of fun..... then you really need to get out more!! 

I'm more of a motor junkie myself, but yes I do understand what you are saying pix
		
Click to expand...

actually i think you've entirely missed the point but nevermind.
and im not a member of any clique personally. I might start my own actually but it'll only be for people with a sense of humour so sadly i dont think i can invite you.

also, i dont think anyone goes to bingo anymore.


----------



## Vizslak (16 September 2011)

Oh his Pix worse than cayla!  think of all the jobs someone worse than cayla would have you slaving at!


----------



## Pix (16 September 2011)

-Sj- said:



			I'm more of a motor junkie myself, but yes I do understand what you are saying pix
		
Click to expand...

S'cause I make all kinds of sense when I'm on my 2nd bottle of wine and jiggling around to Tim Minchin. Were I sober, the post would have gone 'yeah but. well, no. But. Cause no.' Thus I post only when at least slightly wibbly.

I like cars. I like to regale people with tales of how awesome certain cars are, and what they can or cannot do, whilst secretly being deeply amused that I know all this stuff and yet have no idea how to actually change a tire. I'm more a computer junkie myself.

(If you meant motorbikes, substitute the word 'cars' for 'motorbikes' and "I like to regale people with tales of how awesome certain cars are, and what they can or cannot do" with "I stare blankly at people, cause 'bikes don't feature much on Top Gear".)

ETA - To be completely honest people, I don't think poor wine lists or speculating that anyone can be worse than Cayla, anywhere, on internet land or otherwise at giving out jobs is particularly nice. The wine part alone is almost button-pushy-worthy. I've never done it yet, but should anyone even suggest that lambrigno stuffy whatsits then frankly, you are asking for it.


----------



## Vizslak (16 September 2011)

No idea why 'his' is in the last post or what it was meant to be.....I'm on my blasted phone!


----------



## Vizslak (16 September 2011)

Oh Pix I have missed you


----------



## CAYLA (16 September 2011)

Pix said:



			I got my post count up to 748 in the vain hopes of one day being invited into the clique- and now I am told there is none. Well, eff you. Eff you all! I want back all those minutes I've spent making drunken, nonsensical but nonetheless _really salient to the issue_ posts.

I've had enough of this effing rubbish. I'm going to join the petforum thingy or one of them other ones. Bet the soddin wine list is better too.
		
Click to expand...

*NUTTER* ^^^^^^^ alert.......put the bottle down pix 
The clique would have been you and Vizzy, get a grip lass


----------



## CAYLA (16 September 2011)

Vizslak said:



			Oh Pix I have missed you 

Click to expand...

I cos she is always dicking off  then comes back ready for a fight boozed up to the nines
You can never predict the mood that one will be in when she returns I tell you


----------



## Vizslak (16 September 2011)

My non clique drinks bloody expensive champagne I'll have you know ( except cayla) no lambrini girls over here ( disclaimer; other cheap alcho brands are available)


----------



## Vizslak (16 September 2011)

Now look what you have done sj you have turned a perfectly sensible eleven page thread into utter nonsense AND awoken Pix who will shortly be infiltrating your brain via complex software and extracting your soul (we feed clique, sorry...non clique members on them)


----------



## Pix (16 September 2011)

CAYLA said:



			I cos she is always dicking off  then comes back ready for a fight boozed up to the nines
You can never predict the mood that one will be in when she returns I tell you

Click to expand...

I do not always vanish! I did it once. Nor am I always ready for a fight! I've been very not-fighty this evening. If I were a boxer I'd be a cuddly one made from cuddly material with googly eyes. I'd be on antiques roadshow with people in very old suits holding me up to the camera and saying things like "now we [who were born in 1910-1920] all remember these don't we? They were the epitome of childhood happy memories!"

I'd have a little stitched on smile. Awwww!



CAYLA said:



			*NUTTER* ^^^^^^^ alert.......put the bottle down pix 
The clique would have been you and Vizzy, get a grip lass

Click to expand...

Yeah. Well. Whatever! Vizzy missed me! It's all the social encouragement I need. I shall be installing myself in her house shortly. Don't worry if you don't hear from her for a while.


Just out of interest Vizzy, what part of the country do you live in again?


----------



## Katikins (16 September 2011)

Cliquey?  Really?

I am a lurker and irregular poster here and yes it is obvious that there have been some RL friendships made on this forum (which is awesome in my opinion), however I've always had my posts taken seriously and answered in a nice manner.  With regard to 'keyboard bullies'... I think you'd find that the majority of people who have expressed opinions on this thread would be just as vocal about their opinions face to face.  Obviously that's an assumption on my part but I know that I am (including telling my boss that his dog is fat and a very good, but touchy, friend to stop walking his puppy ridiculously far)!

Also, I agree its not necessarily x-breed vs pedigree... its breeders who breed because they want cute puppies vs breeders who are breeding to better the breed.


----------



## MurphysMinder (16 September 2011)

Well for years I wrote in a breed magazine and was happy to express my opinions in there under my real name so would certainly say what I say on here to anyone face to face.
And yes my main bugbear is breeders who breed for money, and particularly those who cross totally ridiculous breeds, give them stupid names and charge totally inflated prices for them.  This is NOT a dig at the OP of this thread, who has referred to her pups as crosses, not anything fancy, and does appear to have gone beyond what is necessary in health tests as I said in Mrs Elles thread.


----------



## Cedars (16 September 2011)

I'd just like to make a comment on the clique thing.. 

I'm often not liked in other areas of the forum-but AAD is the only forum where I have only ever received kind words, sympathy and most importantly fantastic advice. In other areas of this forum, there are cliques who defend each other regardless-on here, users will disagree without fighting, supporting the right course for their dogs/the dog in question. 

I think you are much mistaken about the clique..


----------



## bex1984 (16 September 2011)

fruity said:



			Thank you someone nice  mum is a wonderful rat catcher and family friend,she is a very soppy girl and is fab with everything. Dad is a lovely working terrier,won many dog shows and is also fab with everything. I'd rather have a lovely little x breed that'll prob live a long healthy life than a more often than not in bred pure bred with health problems. My parents bred collies and I love my pure breeds but these are much loved parents and puppies and I am fortunate to be enough to be able to keep them if  they have problems with their homes in the future. So why not?
		
Click to expand...

Good for you. I get so bored of the 'if it's a x breed it must be irresponsibly bred' attitude on here. I'm sure there's plenty of irresponsible breeders of pure bred dogs out there too - and that should surely be if equal concern to anyone with agenuine interest in dog welfare. Someone posting pics of purebred pups on here would not have got the same spanish inquisition style response.

I have a x bred dog (JRT x border terrier), bought as a puppy 18 months ago - and paid good money. From a farm. Oh and I live in a city, don't really have a garden, and work full time. I'm sure that's enough to make me an irresponsible owner, and the fact that my dog is happy and healthy is probably fairly irrelevant. Let's not get into thinking about my friend's totally unhinged pure-bred dog, bought at just 6 weeks old from a bloke in the pub - s'ok cos it's not  x breed! 

OP, very cute pups, hope they all enjoy the lovely homes you've got lined up for them


----------



## Cedars (16 September 2011)

We say all the time on here that purebreds are just as bad (if not worse) when they're not health tested. Take my experience for an example. Xxx


----------



## PolarSkye (16 September 2011)

fruity said:



			I am not playing the victim,i was using mutt as one of the many negative terms she called my dog. Well maybe i was being a little 'sensitive' but can you blame me after the abuse i received! Yes i am well aware of the crisis going on in the rescue centres,so many Staffs etc,these puppies have homes and like i said i would keep them if a problem should arise so no i don't think i'm being a bad breeder,in fact i'm doing all i can to be a good breeder,the amount of worm ridden badly looked after pure bred puppies that come into work,in fact i think i'm doing a pretty good job with my puppies.
		
Click to expand...

Honey - people aren't questioning so much whether you are taking good care of your dog and her lovely puppies - they're questioning whether you should have bred from her in the first place.  

Despite not being too impressed by some of the vitriol flung at you (folks there are better ways to get your (quite valid) points about the wisdom of adding to the already enormous overpopulation problem than being quite so snarky), I have to say that I agree with their sentiment.  

Your bitch is a lovely dog and looks like she's making a good Mum - and the puppies are very cute indeed . . . but as the owner of two rescues - both "mutts" both abandoned as puppies and one with a rather unfortunate temperament, I have to say that I feel breeding from your dog was irresponsible.  

Good luck with the puppies - their arrival might not have been wise, but they are lovely looking and I hope they continue to thrive and find good homes.  Please don't breed any more though.

P


----------



## ester (16 September 2011)

OP has had the dogs health tested, she is not calling them manchand terriers/lakechester terriers, she has homes for all the pups (for which we can only assume she is not charging an extortionate amount), and has said she has the facilities to take pups back in the future (yes things can change but so can the situs of all pedigree breeders who give this guarantee I would imagine)

So I can't quite see why it kicked off so much


----------



## PolarSkye (16 September 2011)

Katikins said:



			its not necessarily x-breed vs pedigree... its breeders who breed because they want cute puppies vs breeders who are breeding to better the breed.
		
Click to expand...

"Breeders who breed to better the breed" . . . by what standard?  Registered breed standard?  All those ridiculous squashed faces causing breathing problems, brain damage, blindness, under/overbites?  All those stupidly narrow pelvises for the size of the puppies?   

I'm not having a go - honest - I just think this whole breeding issue/debate is much more complicated and far less black and white than alot of people (including some on here) seem to think.  

Stepping away from the soapbox now  . . .  

P


----------



## frostie652 (16 September 2011)

well I think theyre gorgeous OP, I wish you lived near me so I could come round for a squeeze 

I have a xbreed, I really dont think it matters in the slightest if a dogs a pedigree or crossbreed.

I would also object to my little girl being called a mutt.


----------



## Jesstickle (16 September 2011)

ester said:



			regular lurker wading in to huge thread!....

katikins your post just made me think, am not sure I can see justification for breeding pedigrees either. They are only pedigrees because we deem them so and have created said variation. I do admit to finding it hard not just to see a dog as a dog whatever it is and that the breed of dog (or not) may not indicate the care taken by the owner in its breeding.

*awaits enlightening*
		
Click to expand...

Ester, I love your scientific brain. This is what I've been thinking all along.

How the hell do people with pedigree animals think they were made. Get a grip. It's just snobbery.

The OP bred some puppies for herself and friends. They all have good homes and she has made provision to have them back if something goes wrong. How that could possibly be construed as irresponsible is beyond me.

Those of you saying no one should breed cross breeds because there are too many puppies, surely no one should bread ANY dog (pedigrees included) until the rescue centres are empty. If you've ever bought a puppy rather than rescuing then surely you're as much a part of the problem as the breeders. Whilst there is a market people will still do it won't they

I say this as someone objective who rarely comes in here. If anyone can tell me why all this is wrong I am happy to listen.


----------



## ester (16 September 2011)

jesstickle said:



			Ester, I love your scientific brain. This is what I've been thinking all along.
		
Click to expand...








someone has to


----------



## Jesstickle (16 September 2011)

ester said:









someone has to 

Click to expand...

Would you like to deliver the lecture on genetics or shall I? There seem to be some funny old ideas about how they work going on in this thread


----------



## Puppy (16 September 2011)

ester said:



			OP has had the dogs health tested, she is not calling them manchand terriers/lakechester terriers, she has homes for all the pups (for which we can only assume she is not charging an extortionate amount), and has said she has the facilities to take pups back in the future (yes things can change but so can the situs of all pedigree breeders who give this guarantee I would imagine)

So I can't quite see why it kicked off so much 

Click to expand...




jesstickle said:



			Ester, I love your scientific brain. This is what I've been thinking all along.

How the hell do people with pedigree animals think they were made. Get a grip. It's just snobbery.

The OP bred some puppies for herself and friends. They all have good homes and she has made provision to have them back if something goes wrong. How that could possibly be construed as irresponsible is beyond me.

Those of you saying no one should breed cross breeds because there are too many puppies, surely no one should bread ANY dog (pedigrees included) until the rescue centres are empty. If you've ever bought a puppy rather than rescuing then surely you're as much a part of the problem as the breeders. Whilst there is a market people will still do it won't they

I say this as someone objective who rarely comes in here. If anyone can tell me why all this is wrong I am happy to listen.
		
Click to expand...

Baaa! 

Clearly lots of you think that Fraggle and Spocket shouldn't exist. 

I couldn't care less. I do believe I love Fraggle more than anything in the world, ever!


----------



## PolarSkye (16 September 2011)

jesstickle said:



			Those of you saying no one should breed cross breeds because there are too many puppies, surely no one should bread ANY dog (pedigrees included) until the rescue centres are empty. If you've ever bought a puppy rather than rescuing then surely you're as much a part of the problem as the breeders. Whilst there is a market people will still do it won't they

I say this as someone objective who rarely comes in here. If anyone can tell me why all this is wrong I am happy to listen.
		
Click to expand...

THIS ^ . . . thankyou JT . . . I've had to bite my tongue many times when friends have *bought* either a designer crossbreed or a pedigree (I have one friend who paid £700 for a "pedigree" lab who is grossly oversized, is in danger of losing an eye and has horrible hips) . . . rescue, rescue, rescue . . . 

Just my humble opinion.

P

P.S.  Oh, and it really winds me up when I hear people say "I'd love to have a [insert breed name here] b/c they are such lovely looking dogs" . . . temperament, suitability (in terms of prospective owners' lifestyle) and NEED ought to come way before looks . . .


----------



## ester (16 September 2011)

PolarSkye said:



			"Breeders who breed to better the breed" . . . by what standard?  Registered breed standard?  All those ridiculous squashed faces causing breathing problems, brain damage, blindness, under/overbites?  All those stupidly narrow pelvises for the size of the puppies?   

I'm not having a go - honest - I just think this whole breeding issue/debate is much more complicated and far less black and white than alot of people (including some on here) seem to think.  

Stepping away from the soapbox now  . . .  

P
		
Click to expand...


I assumed breed to better the breed these days is to improve health, but if a breeder breeding crossbreeds is doing the same with regards to testing I am not sure I see the difference.


----------



## Jesstickle (16 September 2011)

What I think Puppy, is that people should only breed dogs which will be healthy and which will have a nice life. The same as I think about horses and children. They're my only two criteria. Beyond that I am easy as to what people do and I don't actually think it is anyone else's business really. 

I only wanted to mention that a lot of the stuff spouted about genetics seems to have little basis in fact and probably shouldn't be used to berate the poor OP!


----------



## millreef (16 September 2011)

WOW! I wondered why this post had so many hits and I never ever venture into the dog section cos I don't have one and THANK GOD I DON'T because I would be scared stiff of some of the posters on this site.  Poor woman just wanted to share her photos - you're like the freaking Horse n Hound Taliban!


----------



## Amymay (16 September 2011)

Good grief - what a fuss.


Beautiful puppies Fruity.  Look forward to your updates on them


----------



## joeanne (16 September 2011)

Just for you haters of crossbreeds with stupid names.....
P@H store getting dog food. Lady with cute tiny (probably not old enough to vaccinate yet) puppy.
Its a cross breed. A pomeranian and a poodle.
Its a pompoo apparently and set her back....wait for it....you might want to sit down.....£850!!!
*and whispers none of the puppies I bred were docked....yet all bar one went into working homes*


----------



## littlemisslauren (16 September 2011)

I love how some posters defending the OP are coming in all guns blazing because the thread has been dragged out too long.

Yes they are dragging it out even more??


----------



## CalllyH (16 September 2011)

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/pomapoo.htm


----------



## Ranyhyn (16 September 2011)

Having had a whole host of cross breed and pedigree puppies - I wouldn't advocate only breeding pedigree puppies.  I doubt I'd choose a pedigree now over my useless un health tested scrappy mongrel JRTs


----------



## Ranyhyn (16 September 2011)

Puppy said:



			Baaa! 

Clearly lots of you think that Fraggle and Spocket shouldn't exist. 

I couldn't care less. I do believe I love Fraggle more than anything in the world, ever! 

Click to expand...


Vive le mongrel


----------



## MurphysMinder (16 September 2011)

BoolavogueDC said:



			Having had a whole host of cross breed and pedigree puppies - I wouldn't advocate only breeding pedigree puppies.  I doubt I'd choose a pedigree now over my useless un health tested scrappy mongrel JRTs 

Click to expand...

But when you did choose a pedigree you did a huge amount of research, made sure parents were health tested etc, which is what so many of us are trying to say.
Puppy, you know I for one love Popple and Sprocket.  I think you also had quite a few adverse comments when you first had the litter, but again you had done health tests if I can recall, and don't think you were breeding to make megabucks were you. 
I have already said that I feel I was a bit harsh on the OP in view of the many health tests she seems to have done before her bitch was mated, but this wasn't stated in her first post, all we saw was someone referring to a litter crossed between a Man terrier and a Lakeland, when the bitch we saw clearly was neither.   I can't speak for all the other posters on here, but as someone who has spent decades trying to improve my line, rejecting dogs for breeding that I felt weren't suitable (but keeping them I should add, my dogs are pets first and foremost) it is galling when people take the line that all pedigree dogs are crap and we should all have crosses.  So it isn't just the owner of crosses who can feel offended.


----------



## Puppy (16 September 2011)

BoolavogueDC said:



			Vive le mongrel 

Click to expand...

So long as they've got a bit of terrier in them!


----------



## Puppy (16 September 2011)

MurphysMinder said:



			Puppy, you know I for one love Popple and Sprocket.  I think you also had quite a few adverse comments when you first had the litter, but again you had done health tests if I can recall, and don't think you were breeding to make megabucks were you. 

Click to expand...

What about Fraggle?! 

She gets very upset if you leave her out...








I certainly didn't breed for money, lol! It cost me about a grand in vet and stud fees alone (Stud dog has been presented to the Queen and comes from 30 years of breeding from an international judge/trainer) And then there's food, wormer, vaccs, washing a trillion towels a day, and the wear on the house/our shoes, well the less said about that, the better!  

Incidentally, if I had no morals I could make a fortune selling popple dogs. EVERY single walk people stop me and ask after them and wanting one.  But I don't want that. Fraggle is being spayed next month and if I have another litter from Popple once again they will only go to incredibly suitable friends and family - Weevil and myself having one more each for a start!


----------



## weevil (16 September 2011)

jesstickle said:



			Would you like to deliver the lecture on genetics or shall I? There seem to be some funny old ideas about how they work going on in this thread 

Click to expand...

 That just gave me a horrible flashback to the hours of boredom that were my 2nd year university genetics lectures....

As it happens despite sleeping through most of the aforementioned lectures I actually have a pretty good grasp of genetics and was more than happy to take one of Puppy's awful crossbreeds off her hands  and I think he is the best puppy in the World. I can't imagine life without my little dimwit and I really couldn't have asked for a better dog.

Pretty much everyone can think of terrible examples of both purebred dogs and crossbreeds, as long as a dog is happy and healthy what does it matter how it was bred?


----------



## MurphysMinder (16 September 2011)

LOL, is that Fraggle under the blanket?  Humblest apologies Fraggle, I think you are wonderful too.


----------



## Puppy (16 September 2011)

MurphysMinder said:



			LOL, is that Fraggle under the blanket?  Humblest apologies Fraggle, I think you are wonderful too.
		
Click to expand...

It's a video. Click on it  

She is currently emptying her toybox...


----------



## Puppy (16 September 2011)

weevil said:



			:
As it happens despite sleeping through most of the aforementioned lectures I actually have a pretty good grasp of genetics and was more than happy to take one of Puppy's awful crossbreeds off her hands  and I think he is the best puppy in the World. I can't imagine life without my little dimwit and I really couldn't have asked for a better dog.
		
Click to expand...

Your bill is in the post


----------



## MurphysMinder (16 September 2011)

Duh, you don't expect me to grasp technology.  Love her expression as she pops up to say hello.


----------



## weevil (16 September 2011)

Puppy said:



			Your bill is in the post 

Click to expand...

Sprocket loves eating bills


----------



## Puppy (16 September 2011)

MurphysMinder said:



			Duh, you don't expect me to grasp technology.  Love her expression as she pops up to say hello.

Click to expand...

Actually she's saying 'law is boooring. Can we go for a walk'


----------



## foxy1 (16 September 2011)

Hybred vigour anyone? Scientifically proven I think you will find.....

Lovely puppies fruity, I'd have 10 of those over 1 pug/bulldog etc....


----------



## Ranyhyn (16 September 2011)

MurphysMinder said:



			But when you did choose a pedigree you did a huge amount of research, made sure parents were health tested etc, which is what so many of us are trying to say.
Puppy, you know I for one love Popple and Sprocket.  I think you also had quite a few adverse comments when you first had the litter, but again you had done health tests if I can recall, and don't think you were breeding to make megabucks were you. 
I have already said that I feel I was a bit harsh on the OP in view of the many health tests she seems to have done before her bitch was mated, but this wasn't stated in her first post, all we saw was someone referring to a litter crossed between a Man terrier and a Lakeland, when the bitch we saw clearly was neither.   I can't speak for all the other posters on here, but as someone who has spent decades trying to improve my line, rejecting dogs for breeding that I felt weren't suitable (but keeping them I should add, my dogs are pets first and foremost) it is galling when people take the line that all pedigree dogs are crap and we should all have crosses.  So it isn't just the owner of crosses who can feel offended.
		
Click to expand...

You are right I did try my best to do my bit of research with Z, but when I got Roly and Lil, I simply went out looking for healthy happy puppies.  I wouldn't have expected health tests tbh they were rough and ready farm pups.


----------



## PolarSkye (16 September 2011)

Fraggle is beautiful . . . those eyes!  

P


----------



## Pix (16 September 2011)

Is the genetics stuff aimed at me? I'm sorry! My humblest apologies to the geneticists in the room  In my special drunken way I was trying to make the point that phenotype does not equal genotype, and that there is more to heritability than 'what you see is what you get'.

It probably made absolutely no sense. I've thought about it for a couple of minutes, and decided that I'm OK with not making sense.


----------



## PolarSkye (16 September 2011)

Pix said:



			Is the genetics stuff aimed at me? I'm sorry! My humblest apologies to the geneticists in the room  In my special drunken way I was trying to make the point that phenotype does not equal genotype, and that there is more to heritability than 'what you see is what you get'.

It probably made absolutely no sense. I've thought about it for a couple of minutes, and decided that I'm OK with not making sense. 

Click to expand...

Where oh where is the board "Massive Like" button . . . 

. . . wonder if this will make as much sense in the morning when I've not had as much wine?

P


----------



## SusieT (16 September 2011)

Please don't suggest you're going to breed another litter Puppy?? Out of a very ordinary and slightly out of proportion crossbred? I really don't understand how it seems like a good idea to breed a couple of random breeds together- I wouldn't say anything normally but thinking of having two litters, that's bad.


----------



## Puppy (16 September 2011)

PolarSkye said:



			Fraggle is beautiful . . . those eyes!  

P
		
Click to expand...

Thank you  

She says you can have a tickle of her tummy if you like


----------



## Pix (16 September 2011)

PolarSkye said:



			. . . wonder if this will make as much sense in the morning when I've not had as much wine?

P
		
Click to expand...

Probably not. I often look at my posts once sober and think 'what? What does that _mean?_' 

I've been musing the point that pedigree dogs are simply a variation, and that preference for them is snobbery. I think I agree to an extent. But I also disagree. Various breeds of dog are of course variations at some point, but these variations were generally standardized and turned into 'breeds' because they performed a particular function. For example, the Border Collies herding ability. That doesn't mean that families looking for a pet should go out and get a BC above a cross. It also doesn't mean that the Border Collie is a pointless variation, and that a Beagle X Pomeranian could fulfill that same role. 

I will state right now that the above will make no sense in the morning.


----------



## Cinnamontoast (16 September 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			Dont go on that pet forum thingy they are not allowed to talk about cross breeds in there and there is someone in there really scary, makes Cayla look like a pussy cat.
		
Click to expand...

Who? I've not come across anyone scary on there?  Mental, yeah, scary, no. 



Pix said:



			I do not always vanish! I did it once. Nor am I always ready for a fight! I've been very not-fighty this evening. If I were a boxer I'd be a cuddly one made from cuddly material with googly eyes. I'd be on antiques roadshow with people in very old suits holding me up to the camera and saying things like "now we [who were born in 1910-1920] all remember these don't we? They were the epitome of childhood happy memories!"

I'd have a little stitched on smile. Awwww!
		
Click to expand...

Oh my lord, are you _very_ pished?!




Pix said:



			phenotype does not equal genotype, and that there is more to heritability than 'what you see is what you get'.

It probably made absolutely no sense. I've thought about it for a couple of minutes, and decided that I'm OK with not making sense. 

Click to expand...

Ooh, lordy! Step away from the wine, Pix! PMSL!


----------



## Dobiegirl (16 September 2011)

CT it was a joke, Cayla is not scary.


----------



## Pix (16 September 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			Oh my lord, are you _very_ pished?!




Ooh, lordy! Step away from the wine, Pix! PMSL!
		
Click to expand...

Mere emoticons cannot express the deep well of sadness that has consumed my soul. My sadness at your derision would eclipse a thousand tears of blood, or more accurately, inspire a hundred emo songs.


----------



## Cinnamontoast (16 September 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			CT it was a joke, Cayla is not scary.

Click to expand...

Yeah she is: all us Geordie types are way scary. 



Pix said:



			Mere emoticons cannot express the deep well of sadness that has consumed my soul. My sadness at your derision would eclipse a thousand tears of blood, or more accurately, inspire a hundred emo songs.
		
Click to expand...

Are you going to crouch in a corner with your hair over your face sticking safety pins into your arm? Looking like that bint out of the Grudge? Can I watch?


----------



## DragonSlayer (16 September 2011)

My god.....

....is all I can say to this thread.

OP, cute pups.

You do NOT have to justify yourself to ANYONE. You say you have homes for your pups, then that's cool.


----------



## Pix (16 September 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			Are you going to crouch in a corner with your hair over your face sticking safety pins into your arm? Looking like that bint out of the Grudge? Can I watch?
		
Click to expand...

I will probably do that. But I would never cheapen such an emotional experience by allowing people to watch for their own dark reasons. It is all about me at the end of the day, ffs!

I will however post it on youtube. It will be entitled 'OMG I r So Full of TrAuma!' Only comments that can relate to the trauma are allowed. Anything I don't like, I delete. If people are mean, comments get banned!


----------



## Cinnamontoast (16 September 2011)

Honestly, I am uphauled that you wouldn't post it on here for us all to take the pish out of you.  Spoilsport. No more puppy pictures for you.


----------



## Pix (16 September 2011)

Yes, I know, resorting to meme-abuse is pretty dreadful.


----------



## Cinnamontoast (16 September 2011)

Même = self? Or meme= viral? Je ne sais plus rien. Je suis bourée.

I cannot express how thrilled I am to have discovered how to do accents on the iPad!


----------



## Pix (16 September 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			Même = self? Or meme= viral? Je ne sais plus rien. Je suis bourée.

I cannot express how thrilled I am to have discovered how to do accents on the iPad!
		
Click to expand...

I'm all a-rofl  I actually don't know exactly why the general internet 'memes' chose meme, but always assumed it was meme=viral (a la Dawkins). After all, internet memes are exactly that, silly 'themes' and images that go viral across the net, only to be abused by the unimaginative such as myself!


----------



## Cinnamontoast (16 September 2011)

I LOL'd at him. He pretty funny!


----------



## Pix (17 September 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			I LOL'd at him. He pretty funny!
		
Click to expand...

LOL'd at Y U no meme man, or Dawkins?

I'm going to admit something dreadful here.... I have an interest in evolutionary psychology. I have yet to pick up and read The Selfish Gene  I comfort myself with the fact that it has never actually come up in academic conversation. It's kinda more a pop psyche book. One that I should read, but that I can dodge for now. Far more likely that you will discuss relevant papers or the latest Buss publication/money spinner (can you tell I was a little bitter at paying £35 for a B&W, printed on toilet paper, 'comparative pysche for dummies across the pond' text? ) 

I will get around to reading it someday soon.

(Disclaimer! I think Buss has done some great research, and penned some great discursive articles. I'm not overly keen on his publisher right now. £35 for badly printed tissue paper? I should have stuck with Will Reader as an introductory text.  I also listen to Dawkins. Don't always agree, but I listen. And should really at least read one of his texts all the way through )


----------



## Jesstickle (17 September 2011)

weevil said:



 That just gave me a horrible flashback to the hours of boredom that were my 2nd year university genetics lectures....

As it happens despite sleeping through most of the aforementioned lectures I actually have a pretty good grasp of genetics and was more than happy to take one of Puppy's awful crossbreeds off her hands  and I think he is the best puppy in the World. I can't imagine life without my little dimwit and I really couldn't have asked for a better dog.

Pretty much everyone can think of terrible examples of both purebred dogs and crossbreeds, as long as a dog is happy and healthy what does it matter how it was bred?
		
Click to expand...

I think people have misinterpreted. I am arguing that a pedigree is really a mongrel too. I have a smelly old rescue lurcher of unknown descent. I was trying to say that everyone bashing op for her crossbreeds on the grounds of genetics was misguided is all! I hate to see such an abuse of science is all.


----------



## Jesstickle (17 September 2011)

Pix said:



			Is the genetics stuff aimed at me? I'm sorry! My humblest apologies to the geneticists in the room  In my special drunken way I was trying to make the point that phenotype does not equal genotype, and that there is more to heritability than 'what you see is what you get'.

It probably made absolutely no sense. I've thought about it for a couple of minutes, and decided that I'm OK with not making sense. 

Click to expand...

I don't think I aimed it at anyone especially. And fwiw I am only a molecular biologist and haven't done genetics since uni apart from to dabble in thinfs I find interesting. It just seemed to me people had a funny idea of how pedigree dogs were made in the first place so I thoUght I'd ask. Even pedigree dogs can give you a bit of a throw back after all, in the same way people occasionally throw a ginger kid even though no living relatives on either side are ginger! 

Given that you quite obviously know that it can't have been aimed at you in fact


----------



## Jesstickle (17 September 2011)

How do I edit a post on my poxy ipad I can't scroll through it!

I wanted to say that I read the selfish gene And the blind watch maker and Darwin said it better and was less annoying. Dawkins irritates me a bit. I know that is probably bad thogh so I apologise


----------



## Cinnamontoast (17 September 2011)

jesstickle said:



			How do I edit a post on my poxy ipad I can't scroll through it!
		
Click to expand...

Very very lightly put one finger on a white part of screen and with other hand slide the post up or down. Takes practise and you might find that you enlarge the post instead of moving it at first.


----------



## Cinnamontoast (17 September 2011)

Pix said:



			LOL'd at Y U no meme man, or Dawkins?
		
Click to expand...

At Y U no meme man, not Dawkins. I'm still trying to persuade some of my insane family that the Garden of Eden is a _fictional _ story!


----------



## Dobiegirl (17 September 2011)

jesstickle said:



			I don't think I aimed it at anyone especially. And fwiw I am only a molecular biologist and haven't done genetics since uni apart from to dabble in thinfs I find interesting. It just seemed to me people had a funny idea of how pedigree dogs were made in the first place so I thoUght I'd ask. Even pedigree dogs can give you a bit of a throw back after all, in the same way people occasionally throw a ginger kid even though no living relatives on either side are ginger! 

Given that you quite obviously know that it can't have been aimed at you in fact 

Click to expand...

I think the random ginger one is proved to be the milkmans, I thought everyone knew that.


----------



## Nagling (17 September 2011)

I couldn't be bothered to read all of this thread but I think they are lovely looking puppies, they have gorgeous colour coats.  I don't know much about dog breeding but I have a fantastic working cross bred (springer/lab with some pointer thrown back!) who I got for £50.  She is always commented on wherever we go and would definatly go for another cross in th future.


----------



## Pix (17 September 2011)

There is just nothing worse than an unexpected ginger. 



jesstickle, I'm now imagining a Pokemon style fight between Dawkins and Darwin. Thanks for that. I think... 


(Darwin wins).


----------



## Mince Pie (17 September 2011)

Firstly I thought docking was illegal in this country.
Secondly  it's all very well saying that if you want a kitty you should go to a rescue, but there are plenty of breed reaches as well so surely no pups - pure or x bred should be bred until all dogs are homes. Also (and I know there are several threads on the subject) it is bloody hard to get a dog out of a rescue - I know I've tried. So the whole "just go to a rescue centre" isn't so black and white. I was turned down because I don't have a garden - I live on a farm and have a medium sized, fully enclosed indoor school instead, but because I'd have to walk the dog to the school it wasn't good enough.

Lastly OP gorgeous puppies, well done to you and mum.


----------



## Mince Pie (17 September 2011)

Puppy even grr!


----------



## Gemmasfa (18 September 2011)

I can't believe how rude people have been got to about the tenth page and gave up, whilst I agree with some views expresses it's the manner it is expressed. 

I have two rescue dogs myself one being a lab x staff possibly and the other a full lab! Dogs can end up in rescue whether they are cross bred or not, it is who owns them not their bred. I am happy that if OP knows all the new owners and also said she will have them back, I can't see what the problem is!

Although I don't post often I have been lurking and observing for many years, it is not pleasant how some people are attacked. 

Sorry for being longwinded x


----------



## CAYLA (18 September 2011)

Yep I agree some/inc me where a bit harsh, I usually ignore the back street breeding/un necessary breeding posts, I guess I saw redder than usual with the other BSB post re the west x j.r.t and like I mentioned the 2 where not the same, but still IMO un necessary bredding like the post in SB re the spaniels, which was also rather commical when the truth was told about how the litter came about, they are pedigree and still un necessary/ill thought out and irrisponsible.
 Still Im not getting the whole "if they know the people and they have good homes" well Im sure the majority of folk breeding this way and dishing them out also said the same thing and im sure some went to family and friends and yet still we are in crisis with regard to discarded dogs or dogs being passed from pillar to post, things change, circumstance change, PUPPIES change, and don't look so cute anymore and start becoming a problem (well really just a normal dog), they are then discarded of. You would not believe the family disputes we deal with when rescue are handed in and im sure this all began with great intention too.
I also agree it's very responsible to offer back up, but this does not always pan out either, circumstance changes (something we deal with alot in rescue) we have contacted many a breeder who said they would offer back up, yet plainly refused to take the dog we had of theirs, be it circumstance changed or believe it or not, they had another litter in the home and could not possibly house another dog.
I also agree with you that "it's people/ignorance" to blame for the discarding of dogs, but please don't say it's nothing to do with those putting them on this earth in the 1st place to be put in the position, and lest not forget the amount of puppies that will come from these puppies, and the list goes on.
Most puppies have/get homes, a huge amount never remain there.

I get that I have a strong opinion, I have rescue dogs I have X breeds, my life is revolved around rejected dog/cats and puppies, even rabbits I see the whole picture not just the pretty/cute one.
I agree once more some comments where harsh and un necessary like the breeding it's self.


----------



## cremedemonthe (18 September 2011)

CAYLA said:



			Yep I agree some/inc me where a bit harsh, I usually ignore the back street breeding/un necessary breeding posts, I guess I saw redder than usual with the other BSB post re the west x j.r.t and like I mentioned the 2 where not the same, but still IMO un necessary bredding like the post in SB re the spaniels, which was also rather commical when the truth was told about how the litter came about, they are pedigree and still un necessary/ill thought out and irrisponsible.
 Still Im not getting the whole "if they know the people and they have good homes" well Im sure the majority of folk breeding this way and dishing them out also said the same thing and im sure some went to family and friends and yet still we are in crisis with regard to discarded dogs or dogs being passed from pillar to post, things change, circumstance change, PUPPIES change, and don't look so cute anymore and start becoming a problem (well really just a normal dog), they are then discarded of. You would not believe the family disputes we deal with when rescue are handed in and im sure this all began with great intention too.
I also agree it's very responsible to offer back up, but this does not always pan out either, circumstance changes (something we deal with alot in rescue) we have contacted many a breeder who said they would offer back up, yet plainly refused to take the dog we had of theirs, be it circumstance changed or believe it or not, they had another litter in the home and could not possibly house another dog.
I also agree with you that "it's people/ignorance" to blame for the discarding of dogs, but please don't say it's nothing to do with those putting them on this earth in the 1st place to be put in the position, and lest not forget the amount of puppies that will come from these puppies, and the list goes on.
Most puppies have/get homes, a huge amount never remain there.

I get that I have a strong opinion, I have rescue dogs I have X breeds, my life is revolved around rejected dog/cats and puppies, even rabbits I see the whole picture not just the pretty/cute one.
I agree once more some comments where harsh and un necessary like the breeding it's self.
		
Click to expand...

Agree totally Cayla, nicely put.
I too try to help several rescue sites and charities, I have 3 rescue dogs myself, all different yet desperately needed homes because they were bred and abandoned. The puppies in question in this thread may have homes to go to but as Cayla has so rightly pointed out, what happens if any of those pups are then bred by the new owners for whatever reason and the pups they produce can and do end up in rescues?
So, it carrys on.


----------



## Mince Pie (18 September 2011)

Fair enough CAYLA, I see where you are coming from. I usually avoid these sorts of threads but I was in a **** mood last night . I do still wonder that with all the purebred dogs in rescue as well whether any breeder should be breeding at the moment though.
My dog is a rescue (not from a centre) so it's something I believe in as well but i wonder if rescues are not helping themselves when they make it so difficult. Don't get me wrong I understand that they don't want a dog to go to another bad home, but still...


----------



## Gemmasfa (18 September 2011)

I can understand entirely where you are coming from cayla, you see the results of irresponsible breeding everyday and I understand exactly what you are saying.

I was just taking what OP is saying on face value, I know what is said and what is done is sometimes very different.

I understand why people have strong feelings about this but I just don't  like the way people say it sometimes. That is not pointed at you cayla! Some people just jump on the bandwagon and relish the opportunity to put someone down. This is not in relation to this thread entirely but many I have seen.

As I said I can see entirely why you would see red at this is your situation just think some other may jump on the bandwagon and doubt they would say half the things if thy met people face to face! X


----------



## CAYLA (18 September 2011)

I cannot speak for anyone else. But yes it is very hard for me to take people at face value (esp in regard to breeding), I am cynical, it sometimes makes me a little sad, even by boss commented one day "for someone so young, you are so very cynical", am not that young imo she is just old I interpret what she said that as "realistic" but it still makes me sad I feel this way sometimes but that is me
I cannot speak for anyone on the whole "face to face" issue but I can say, I say whats on my mind weather it be to someone face or here and anyone who knows me would agree (not something im always proud of) but it's me

I just want people to see the whole picture not just the pretty one, because seeing a dog discarded and so messed up it does not know weather it's coming or going is a sight that will always make you angry believe me. Even worse when they end up in a **** hole of a pound and life is suddenly cold noisy/fearful all contained within 4 walls.


----------



## Mince Pie (18 September 2011)

Cayla believe me i know, not quite the same but i used to work with dogs seized by the police, yes some were dangerous thanks to bloody chavs looking for status dogs but mist purely


----------



## Mince Pie (18 September 2011)

I hate this bloody phone!

The end of that post should be "but most because of what they looked like. Long term kennelling is no life for any dog


----------



## MurphysMinder (18 September 2011)

Okay putting my neck on the chopping block here.  As many of you know I am planning on breeding from Evie in the spring,  I also have spent many hours helping a GSD Rescue, so can see things from both sides, and thought long and hard about whether or not to hopefully have a litter.  
What has convinced me is how many people I consider lovely homes that are turned down by rescues.  Yes in an ideal world everyone should have a rescue, but it just ain't going to happen.
I don't actually think I would pass a rescue home check as my dogs are sometimes left for more than 5 hours, and shock horror my property is not surrounded by a fence of 5' or more.  Families with children under 5 are often turned down for a rescue dog, now I do appreciate that when a dogs history is unknown this is a wise approach, but some rescues won't consider whatever the circumstances.  If people want a dog and rescues won't help them then they really have no option but to go to a breeder, and as long as they go to a decent breeder then I don't think they or the breeder should be vilified.


----------



## Camel (18 September 2011)

Nice puppies and you have homes _and_ back up plans for them, no big issue imo.

On the subject of overbreedig what can we do? someone said earlier in the post that all breeding should stop until all the rescue centres are empty? I like this!! 

A friend of a friend has put her staffy bitch in pup (to another friends staffy dog ) .... I tried to diplomatically drop into conversation the fact that our local dogs home has a seperate 20 kennel block purely for unwanted staffys but unfortunately said BYB was to thick to even understand it was a hint/dig at her


----------



## Gemmasfa (18 September 2011)

If i was in the same position as you, I am sure i would feel exactly the same!

As for being cynical i am also in that club i take crisis loans applications for a living and get lied to everyday so in those situations i am very cynical and dont believe a word people are saying half the time ha. I like what you said about her being old made me laugh out loud kind of thing i would say.

Yeah pretty puppies, my friend recently got a springer cross lab (i know i know - or should i call it a springerdor) it is so tiny and skinny and full of worms and she paid £300 for the pleasure. She got nothing with the puppy no puppy pack or food he was eating nothing, it is a big issue with back street breeding.

As for more staffie puppies god help us


----------

