# Horse turning nasty.



## jhoward (14 July 2012)

16.2 4 yr gelding, bought as a 3 year old,.. knew he could be a handful turn out wise.. groom was scared of him. but for a LONG time saw no signs of him being nasty, then he had an inury to a back leg.. understandably whilst it was being cleaned he was lashing out.. 

skip forward a bit, horse got a bit attitudey.. if i asked him to move over and he didnt fancy it, hed shuffle at me, if i carried on he would then aim a back leg at me, we did have one stand off, where he really wouldnt move over in the stable to his arse met a whip.. this was through a heavy weight stable rug, and it went like this.. 

me over.
horse.. boot, 
me whip and over. 
horse boot
me., whip and over. 

i won. 

couple more incidents like the above, and generally just picking up the whip and giving him a loud over done it. 

skip forward to last few months. 

he had a front leg injury very nasty and required daily flushing and a few days of a poultice, he bit, he reared, at one point i had 2 people holding him., at one point even if i was just looking from the opposite side he was going for me with teeth. 

so lets skip forward. a couple of weeks ago, whilst in (he is in a barn about 30 by 20 foot )i just randomly lent across him and feck me he went for me, proper ears back teeth going.. was taken back but thought no more, 

then the next day i was grooming him and the same thing happened.

then he was laid down and i was sat beside him, one of the kids walked through the barn, gave him a fussy in passing and carried on, horse wnet for kids legs. 

all 3 times recently have been on the same side.. i thought pain, and had a good poke and prod, vet out to do jabs, she also had a poke and prod.. nothing apparent. 

today.. beast has been washed for a comp tomorrow, he got a smack for being rude, and then stood like a statue, at that point, he was being rude, he got one smack with a stand. and he stood.. i praised and did actully go and get him a polo. 

put him in the barn, he threw himself on the floor. got up bucking he wanted to go out of the exit that leads to the field and it was not done up, he was at this point munching hay, i went to tie gate up and all hell let loose, 

horse really went for me, both back feet lashing out AT ME. that was not acceptable, so he got a rollocking verbally and a whip thrown at his arse. to get him over. he went for me with back feeet, he went back wards, he went side ways, i lucky for me had someone holding the gate and got out. 

had 30 seconds going dear god, and went back in, told him in a harsh voice to stand bloody still and walked up to his head. at this point he got a big fuss. i done the gate up and left him. 

now ive dealt with horses that are nasty.. but never one that become nasty, his sire was nasty so that could be part of it. 

i know ive mentioned the whip but he is not hit about, he isnt the sort of horse you can do that to, normally a firm no and he backs it in, but tonight was worthy of a bullet. 

so what havnt i thought about.. why is a horse becoming nasty.?


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## Devonshire dumpling (14 July 2012)

What do you mean by he threw himself on the floor?  Is he acting neurological?


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## jhoward (14 July 2012)

no, its his way of having a hissy fit after being washed he doesnt roll but goes around liturally throwing him self down.


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## Cortez (14 July 2012)

There are nasty horses, you know..........not everything has a nice explaination (pain, fear, whatever).


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## Tiarella (14 July 2012)

Sounds like a horse I used to know, turned out to be a brain tumour and had to be pts


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## orionstar (14 July 2012)

Affy would quite happily stomp on the vet, or the farriers head, after her hind leg op, and I'm the only one that can pick her back feet out without fear of getting a broken leg, but it sounds like your boy has taken protecting himself to a whole other level. A friend of mine had a filly that had to be stitched after a horrible accident and after a whole year of trying to gain her trust again, he had to call time, as she would still try to bite and kick at every given opportunity. Her new owner is over the moon with her even after been fully informed about the problems, but its obviously taken a change of scenery to settle her down - sorry no resolution for your problem, but it's not nice having to dodge feet, and the feeling that you need to make a will before going into the stable isnt nice either!


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## jhoward (14 July 2012)

if the nastyness happened for no reason my thoughts would be different, but there is generally something behind it, 
the front end starting concerns me.


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## Queenbee (14 July 2012)

I know a mare who does this, pure hissy fit, absolutely nothing neurological about her condition.  JH, I can't really advise on this on, you're a good, experienced horsewoman, and I like you have no experience of such extreme behaviour.  Just wanted to post to say sorry your horse is behaving like this and I hope you get to the bottom of it x


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## SusieT (14 July 2012)

My thought would be that he needs to go out and have a rest. He sounds sour. Why were you sat beside a horse that is known to be difficult? Or kids anywhere near him? How much work is he doing? He could probably do with going out with a herd where he'll chill, be part of the discipline structure. It also sounds like he may have had too much discipline and be reacting to protect himself.


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## MrsMozart (14 July 2012)

I know of two that, on the ground in different situations, are 'nasty'.

One will go at you over the door, but is fine once you're the same side of the door as him.

The other one, on the groud is just scary. Both ends will go for you.

The first is managed by staying out of reach.

The second is handled by a very experienced lady who is blinking quick on her feet!

Both horses under saddle are excellent.

Dizz gets nasty if you give her an inch, she'll take your head off. I've had two sessions in her stable with a schooling whip, effectively lunging her and getting he moving over where and when she was asked. She's now chilled and soft, but if I let her push me around at all, we'll be back to where we were.


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## cobmum (14 July 2012)

Personally i would take him off all hard feed and stop all work and let him relax and chill for a few weeks. Slowly introduce work and appropriate feed and see how you get on, you may find there is a feed or pain trigger.

There are / have been many cases of horses that are nasty and dangerous and not all are due to neuro problems sometimes it make take a change of owner or change of livery yard to end the nastiness, unfortunatley sometimes it takes a bullet.

Also prehaps consider gastric ulcers?


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## jeeve (14 July 2012)

My chap who is very sweet, gets very nasty when in pain/discomfort. He had an abcess in foot, despite a few vet /farrier visits they were unable to relieve it. It eventually came out at top of foot. He has been quite sore, and went for me a couple of times with teeth, when i went to catch him for his treatment.

Same with another gelding we bought, he was really nasty when we got him home. The girl that owned him had ridden him really hard the day we picked him up, and by the next morning he was lame, and grumpy, also had a kidney infection. once all that sorted he was fine.

However, you chap could also just be a bit sour - not enjoying things as much and he is telling you the only way he knows how. I would just keep an eye on him for signs that he is not right /sore, but also be careful - do not take him for granted, and do try and make things fun with him, and not just hard work.

Have also known mares with hormonal issues that send them quite unbalanced/stallion like behaviour and need very exp. treatment/op to correct. But not aware of this in geldings. I have heard of issues with teeth/ problems with head/head injuries causing this kind of extreme behaviour - again pain related.

Both my grumpy geldings (if they are having an off day) will lay down even while being ridden , one to roll - because he gets a compulsion to roll - I think it is like stress relief for him, the other because when he does not want to do something he just lays down - neither throw themselves down and get up- but hard to know unless you are there to see what you describe.

Giving some time out and taking him off all but hay - allowing him to unwind - may help as has been suggested. If he is sore or sour a little time could just be what he needs.


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## jhoward (14 July 2012)

Queenbee said:



			I know a mare who does this, pure hissy fit, absolutely nothing neurological about her condition.  JH, I can't really advise on this on, you're a good, experienced horsewoman, and I like you have no experience of such extreme behaviour.  Just wanted to post to say sorry your horse is behaving like this and I hope you get to the bottom of it x
		
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thanks mate, i honestly dont think he is nasty, just that im possibley missing something.. but hes a big horse to be acting this way.




SusieT said:



			My thought would be that he needs to go out and have a rest. He sounds sour. Why were you sat beside a horse that is known to be difficult? Or kids anywhere near him? How much work is he doing? He could probably do with going out with a herd where he'll chill, be part of the discipline structure. It also sounds like he may have had too much discipline and be reacting to protect himself.
		
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he is not broken. so is in no work, the accident re the front leg was a couple of months ago and has caused issues else where, so un broken, since the front end biting, hes been doing a bit of in hand work, and being led out. unfortunatly the osteo told me not to put a saddle any where near him. 

any way deffinatly not sour. 

he is not in general a nasty horse, i often crash out with him, if i lay against him he crashes out too. 

the kid was accessing other stables, a perfectly normal thing to do it, it happens everyday.

re discaplin, possible he was from a show producer, and had know ground problems, leading.. etc 

put it this way, it took me over an hour to get some rains over his head the first time i tried, and he was scared, we shook and got the squits.


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## Devonshire dumpling (14 July 2012)

Might sound really stupid and might be far too dangerous to try, but could you try getting to a safe place and then act like it didn't happen, no telling off at all?  Try just positive reinforcement?  Maybe the whip has left the horse feeling like it needs to defend itself?  Or if it's just a case of the horse refusing to do something like "move over"  stand still and wait for a slight movement on the horses own accord and the minute the hind quarters move over, reward the action?     You may find that pure kindness and quiet praise gets you somewhere?
We had a collie who would want you to stroke her one min and the next trying to savage you, it was her way of saying ok stop now!  We thought she was "just bad" until we opened her op for a pyometra and all her female parts were really underdeveloped, obviously her "make up" was a bit screwed!... I don't really believe any animal is truly bad.  Perhaps it is neurological, perhaps the horse gets a stabbing pain in it's head or somewhere and takes it out on you, who knows.... I wouldn't be into trying to win a battle, you will never win a battle over a half ton animal, they choose not to kill you, so just stay safe!


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## Cortez (14 July 2012)

Maybe he's just not very bright?


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## jhoward (14 July 2012)

cobmum said:



			Personally i would take him off all hard feed and stop all work and let him relax and chill for a few weeks. Slowly introduce work and appropriate feed and see how you get on, you may find there is a feed or pain trigger.

There are / have been many cases of horses that are nasty and dangerous and not all are due to neuro problems sometimes it make take a change of owner or change of livery yard to end the nastiness, unfortunatley sometimes it takes a bullet.

Also prehaps consider gastric ulcers?
		
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he has marksway conditioning chaff, thats it, and at the moment hay as he is in a lot, hes been on the same food for 8 months. 

he gets to go out, but weather wise it may be for only an hour, but hes doing something in hand monst days even if its 5 mins up the road and back. 

yes i have thought about ulcers,. vet thinks based on his history they are unlikley. 

we have moved in the past couplde of months. 

a bullet.. this is a horse the vet valued at 8k. and not to mention my horse of a life time. 

fecking hell ive not even got him broken yet!


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## jhoward (14 July 2012)

Cortez said:



			Maybe he's just not very bright?
		
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## jhoward (14 July 2012)

Devonshire dumpling said:



			Might sound really stupid and might be far too dangerous to try, but could you try getting to a safe place and then act like it didn't happen, no telling off at all?  Try just positive reinforcement?  Maybe the whip has left the horse feeling like it needs to defend itself?  Or if it's just a case of the horse refusing to do something like "move over"  stand still and wait for a slight movement on the horses own accord and the minute the hind quarters move over, reward the action?     You may find that pure kindness and quiet praise gets you somewhere?
We had a collie who would want you to stroke her one min and the next trying to savage you, it was her way of saying ok stop now!  We thought she was "just bad" until we opened her op for a pyometra and all her female parts were really underdeveloped, obviously her "make up" was a bit screwed!... I don't really believe any animal is truly bad.  Perhaps it is neurological, perhaps the horse gets a stabbing pain in it's head or somewhere and takes it out on you, who knows.... I wouldn't be into trying to win a battle, you will never win a battle over a half ton animal, they choose not to kill you, so just stay safe!
		
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yes have done, hes a drama queen in general, and i think cut late, which could explaine a few things, but before he gets a rollocking for anything, it is done the softley way to ensure he 100 percents knows what is expected, to much pressure on him gets a negitive reaction.


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## Queenbee (14 July 2012)

jhoward said:



			he has marksway conditioning chaff, thats it, and at the moment hay as he is in a lot, hes been on the same food for 8 months. 

he gets to go out, but weather wise it may be for only an hour, but hes doing something in hand monst days even if its 5 mins up the road and back. 

yes i have thought about ulcers,. vet thinks based on his history they are unlikley. 

we have moved in the past couplde of months. 

a bullet.. this is a horse the vet valued at 8k. and not to mention my horse of a life time. 

fecking hell ive not even got him broken yet!
		
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JH, has the behaviour been since arriving at the new yard?


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## jhoward (14 July 2012)

Queenbee said:



			JH, has the behaviour been since arriving at the new yard?
		
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the front end yes, the rest no, he has always been the same with the back legs, as savage as tonight has never happened before.


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## Littlelegs (14 July 2012)

Are you 100% sure he's gelded? An old boss had a stallion who they'd had from a  foal who got gradually worse between 4 & 6. I knew him when he was about 10 & very good, provided you asked & didn't tell. But he had done damage in his younger days to anyone he perceived as giving even a hint of domineering body language, let alone facing him down. 
  What's he like with other horses? If one puts him in his place does he accept it or go back for more? That might show if its physical or mental. And personally I'd have him out all day too, with an older mare to put him in his place regularly.


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## Foxhunter49 (14 July 2012)

it is hard to say what to do with a horse like this, I have had a few through my hands and all were never easy. 
One thought is that I would lay this horse down, force him to the ground using Endospink method of what he calls 'Tapping'
This puts the horse in a vulnerable position and makes it realise that it has to submit and give in. When down they are waiting for something terrible to happen to them and when it doesn't they are totally different when allowed to get up.

It is not something to be done lightly but it does work.


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## thehorsephotographer (14 July 2012)

I don't agree, as someone said earlier I think, that some horses are just nasty.  I think all horses are born as a clean slate and what they become is a result of what happens to them from poor handling to health issues.

I have known similar behaviour to what you describe only once before and it turned out as I think someone else mentioned that the horse had a brain tumour - which made it unstable in it's behaviour and emotions.

That said I would cut out altogether any sign of a polos or feeding anything by the hand if he's biting.  In my book biting = never feed from the hand.  To me he sounds frightened of something.  I'd be trying to spend more time with him - even if it's a bit at a time - building up his trust so that he lets you take his fear away.  Perhaps just spend more time grooming him and giving him a nice massage if he will stand intitially whilst talking to him all the time.

There has to be a reason for his erratic behaviour I would say the difficult bit it to identify what the problem is.  How is he with being touched around his head/ears?


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## Moomin1 (14 July 2012)

Just a pedantic question - but you say "you went and got him a polo" after he had shown good behaviour.  What was the point in that?  Or do you mean you gave him a polo straight away?

It sounds to me like his handling has gone drastically wrong somewhere in his life and he is very defensive.  Either that or there is a neurological problem going on - which the vet surely should want to rule out?


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## Queenbee (14 July 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Just a pedantic question - but you say "you went and got him a polo" after he had shown good behaviour.  What was the point in that?  Or do you mean you gave him a polo straight away?

It sounds to me like his handling has gone drastically wrong somewhere in his life and he is very defensive.  Either that or there is a neurological problem going on - which the vet surely should want to rule out?
		
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TBH, Ive met JH in the flesh and seen her horses, I would say her handling is not in question here.  I would as someone else said be interested in the difference between how he behaves towards humans and how he behaves towards horses, is he a git with both species or is it just humans that illicit this response OP


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## Sugar_and_Spice (14 July 2012)

I've got no idea what to do but here's a situation that happened to me and maybe its the same with your horse...

Basically a horse that was beaten by a past owner and was known to be nasty with current owner biting her on the arm as lead along, she went into field to catch it with a whip but never hit it. Horse was always fine with me, it approached me in the field and was always friendly, moved out of my space with a gentle push. 

Until the day it was near mine and a third. The third went to bite mine, I waved my hands to shoo it away, the nasty horse thought I was waving hands at him and backed off pulling evil face. That was enough for him to take against me. If I went in the field he'd come running from wherever, even the other side of field, ears back, snaking head, mouth open. I'd have to hit with headcollar to avoid bite and shoo away, dodging kick. 

I'd then approach him, cautiously, praising every time he stopped the evil face and made a big fuss of him when I got to his head. I wouldn't let him push me around but tried everything to make friends with him, for months. Didn't work, he hated me and that was that. Gave up when he came upto me all sweetness one day then lunged at the very last minute grabbed me round the throat and nearly killed me. Settled for carrying a whip and not letting him anywhere near me.

Do you think your situation is similar? I'm thinking maybe yours has taken against you because of the wound cleaning, if he has a past of beatings maybe? Because wound cleaning hurts, I mean.


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## jhoward (15 July 2012)

Fox hunter, I do know what you are talking about. 

littlelegs, yes deffinatly, although could of only been cut 18 months.. 

re his behaviour with others, he is a total softy, ive never seen him kick or put his ears back at another horse. 

he is very insecure and gets attatched far to easy. 
 thanks qb. 

sugarandspice. 
I have no idea, the overal vengence behind yesterdays attack was by my standards dangerous. ive never backed off to the point ive got out of a stable. 

re past beatings, very possible, certainly has something done to him, he is funny around his head and things like washing.. couldnt get near him with a hose pipe a year ago.. 

i mentioned his previous home.. they used a chain in the mouth to turn him out as he was such a handful (they had to stop using a chifney as when he went to take off in the field they couldnt get it off quick enough)


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## muffinmunsh (15 July 2012)

Hm, sounds like testosterone to me. Can you have levels checked? Maybe something was left behind?


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## vieshot (15 July 2012)

Good on you for sticking it out and trying to fix this horse. I can openly admit that I wouldn't have had the same patience and last nights events would have been the last straw for me....and for him.


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## Topaz Tiger (15 July 2012)

I've got a mare, she was badly treated as a yearling, rescued, but then never turned out with other horses, so developed no real social skills.  

I got her, turned her out with other horses, but it was like she didn't really know how to act. She can't bear them in her rather large personal space.

She's an alpha mare, can be quite grumpy and aggressive on the ground, but fine when ridden and better when she's worked.

She's gone for me on more that one occasion, inc kicking me because I stratched her in the 'wrong' place and double barrelling me in the stable because I told her off for nipping me.

She absolutely hates being told off and takes it very badly.

Now nearly 5 years later, we've got to a good place.  I've moved to a new yard, where she is happier, think people wound her up in the old yard and she'd lunge over the door to them. If she gets a bit sharp now I warn her, or give her a light slap on the bottom and that's enough.

She's def wary of people particularly men, but for the main, less is more with her, as far as reprimanding her.  Having said that, I have also gone into the stable with the shavings fork, when she double barrelled and caught me on the chest.... 

I liken her to an autistic child, she just didnt understand the right way to behave and her reactions were at times completely inappropriate to the situation.

To ride, she is fabulous, she loves her work and going out competing.

Good luck, hope you sort it out.


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## ILuvCowparsely (15 July 2012)

Topaz Tiger we had a livery like this but it had no excuse it was pampered to much . Its an ex livery now.


 Have you though of clicker training??
 or behaviour expert.
?

  There are lot of books on behaviour one is called Perfect Manners.


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## Old Bat (15 July 2012)

Hi, its always difficult to comment without seeing things first hand but my immediate thoughts would be hormonal or tumour related, so if I were in your position these are the two things I'd want to have investigated. Just one thing, though, which you can't change, if the stallion was nasty as well then why on earth was he used for breeding?! Good luck and keep safe.


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## Armas (15 July 2012)

Can't comment but thought I would send you a cyber hug x


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2012)

I bred one a bit like this if I had bought I would have said it had been mistreated when it was three it attacked me while I was grooming it I was brushing its shoulder and it just attacked it was really meanlt.
I viewed breaking it with horror it was a very very nasty horse I bred it was down to me I was not prepared to back it ,I PTS.
OP sometimes like people you meet a not very nice one , until this horse I would have said no bad horses onle bad people but it not always so.


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## Dolcé (15 July 2012)

I really don't have any constructive advice but wanted to offer support really, a total idiot owning a horse that becomes like this can be blamed for causing the problem but when you have such an experienced owner then you have to look to the horse and his reasons for turning.  I do wonder if turning away in a strong herd may help, just to have him put back in his place by his peers, but then there is the risk it will make him even worse with human handlers if not handled every day.  I really feel for you, what a horrible position to be in, I'm afraid I simply could not handle the responsibility of a horse that is basically becoming dangerous and I know I wouldn't have the guts to go anywhere near it so I applaud you for sticking with him.  I really hope you can find a solution and that he goes on to become the horse youwant him to be. xx


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## whiteclover (15 July 2012)

Just a thought have you tried getting an RA out - intelligent horsemanship person. They are very knowledgeable and may be able to help.

I bought a horse last year who was horrible on the ground with me. He'd rear coming out of the field. He was a lovely horse in the field but try to move him and he'd start rearing and planting his feet and nothing would get him to move. I had an intelligent horsemanship woman out who said its going to take some time to sort this horse out. I noticed that when he went back to the guy I bought him off he put the leadrope through the noseband of the headcollar. So he knew he was horrible on the ground. He got sold a month later to a hunt family and the son is now hunting him.


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## Meowy Catkin (15 July 2012)

Do you think that he might have been ear twitched in the past?

I've had to work so hard with my gelding who was only ear twitched once (by a Vet - the breeder was horrified and never used the Vet again) and it really had a negative impact on his trust in humans.


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## maree t (15 July 2012)

I am sorry that I cant offer any constructive advice but have to say I am following this thread with great interest.
We have a NF pony that at 3 started getting a bit nasty , he would chase me out of the field trying to bite and kick etc. I think he just needed to do more. I put him in with my shetland cross mare who gave him a kicking and we had no more problems, we also backed him early and just pottered around with him so that his brain had better things to do. He still nips a bit but is the best pony we have ever had.
We also aquired a mare last year that had had a bit of a rough time. I have cared for her and fed her , grromed her etc but we have come to the conclusion that she just doesnt like me. We had dreadful trouble with her last year and even early this year until we worked it out . Now I just leave her to the kids to sort out and she is turning out to be a great pony and I can hold her for them when they have to do stuff without her trying to bite me.
I wish you the best of luck and admire your perserverance, you are a lot braver than me !!


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## Persephone (15 July 2012)

I can't help thinking he may improve with more turnout, the current lack of it must be stressfull even if it doesn't appear so. He must be bored witless!


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## Ladyinred (15 July 2012)

Persephone said:



			I can't help thinking he may improve with more turnout, the current lack of it must be stressfull even if it doesn't appear so. He must be bored witless!
		
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This ^^^  In _some_ horses lack of sufficient turnout can have one of two different outcomes. Either they can become shut down and retreat mentally, or they can find some sort of vice for amusement, and this nastiness is as much of a vice as weaving/cribbing etc.

If he were mine I would have him turned out 24/7 but brought in at least once a day for a tiny feed, a groom and a check over. Coming in and interacting with humans would become a very positive experience for him.


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## thehorsephotographer (15 July 2012)

Well I've just re-read this whole thread and your replies to some people and I think given how he is going at the moment that you and doing wonderfully well with him.

Does he ever get turned out with other horses?

I'm wondering if it isn't pain related (although not sure about this following your comment that the bites followed contact on the same side every time) if it's something as simple as he isn't getting out enough and getting to do enough.

Either way he needs to learn it isn't acceptable to behave like this and also to invade your space.  Reading it again it reads in parts as if he's trying to be head of the herd with you.  The biting and kicking are all what he would do to take his position in the herd so somehow you need to establish the top notch as yours.

We had something very similar with one of our 4 year olds who is still very much a work in progress but not as bad as yours from the kicking point of view and it's taken a long time working on short bursts of a little grooming - if he's good lots of positive talk, parts and rewards but keeping it very short so we end on a positive.  If he's naughty/bad mannered then we try to stand our ground and let him know it's not acceptable and turn it around so he finishes on a positive.

In hand he's really good but it's taking a long time to get his behaviour on our terms and not his - depending on how he's feeling!  His behaviour really went south when we recently introduced another gelding - to the degree that we had to seperate him out from the others.

He's not a rig but was cut late.  We're currently doing lots of work with his manners with him on his own before we try him back with the others.  In his case we've gone right back to basics although he isn't yet broken.  He's miles better than he was but it's taking a lot of work.

I applaud you too for sticking with your horse and trying to find answers.  I'm sure there are some answers but if it were me I'd go right back to basics and start from there - from where you would with halter breaking through to grooming one step at a time, all the time building a relationship with him that lets him know clearly who is in charge.

I know it's difficult but you also need to be able to approach him without expecting him to misbehave because if you are wary and expecting it that puts you on a different footing with him in that your body language and demeanor will transmit this to him - even if you don't realise this.  So confident "I'm in charge here" is what's needed.


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## Pearlsasinger (15 July 2012)

jhoward said:



			if the nastyness happened for no reason my thoughts would be different, but there is generally something behind it, 
the front end starting concerns me.
		
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I agree with you OP, it sounds like there is a physical problem, although I do wish people would consider temperament as well as talent/looks when breeding. 
I think the horse's over-the-top reaction is because of her previous experiences whilst being treated but I would be investigating the pain route further.  Would your vet recommend a physiotherapist?  I would also look at diet - I used to own a mare who became dangerous to ride & handle when fed cereal/sugar - it took us ages to work out that was the problem.


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## YasandCrystal (15 July 2012)

Please do consider pain. Listen to your horse. I am not fluffy honestly. My WB was aggressive and got progressively worse; he was broken and passed a 5 stage vetting and was at first ok ridden. Dreadful to be handled and groomed - he would try to kick, bite strike and rear up. In the end I had him scoped he had low grade ulcers and then he was finally diagnosed with sacro illiac dyfunction at Newmarket. He had been in chronic pain probably for several years, so no wonder he was an aggressive grump all the time.

He like your horse had a sire that was temperamental and was gelded due to his temperament in the end, however there is a big difference between an alert and lively competition horse and an aggressive one.

If you speak to any horse behaviourist they will tell you that horses being flight animals will not waste energy being aggressive to humans - it is simply not in their nature. There possibly do exist some nasty horses, but as my vet concurred it is highly unlikely and more likely that there is a physical reason.

Personally I would get out a good body worker to the horse first and maybe a communication - it worked for me. My horse was diagnosed - rehabed and treated - turned away and is now a sweet natured horse. He will still rear full up on the ground when he is scared, but he never does that with any aggression these days and I can reprimand him without fear of him coming back at me too.

Oh yes and mine is sugar and cereal intolerant too - so his gut was hurting as well as his SI


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## Tammytoo (15 July 2012)

He's been through a few painful procedures in the past, so people are probably not on his Xmas card list at the moment, plus what seems to be a lot of box rest with very little turnout.  He may be defensive, frustrated and angry at what he sees as a pretty poor lifestyle at the moment.  Can he not be turned away for a few weeks to unwind and relax?

There may also be pain issues.


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## jhoward (15 July 2012)

well said horse has just been to his first comp... He had a hiisy fit
pissed off aimed feet at people trying to catch him, and has either broken 
or dislocated my finger, the bspa jydge got a gob full , for jabbingmy horse in the gob, i stzyed in for the next class, horse behaved much bettr..im heading to a and e ouchies


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## YasandCrystal (15 July 2012)

Personally I would be looking to get to the root of his problem before taking him to shows and adding to his stress.
It sound slike he behaved in the second class inspite of anything going on with him.


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## SusieT (15 July 2012)

Turn him out the poor lad, only put jfor an hour a day and he's only young-probably fed up of having things done around him and needs to rest his head-not be out at shows. Don't lie against him etc. but treat him like a horse. Try him it full time with other horses and bring him in for anything you need to do. Don't mess him Round just do what training is required and turn him out again. Sounds I've he has just been overdone.


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## Moomin1 (15 July 2012)

I would agree Suzie T, I do think it sounds like his head is about to explode with all the goings on.  

Personally I would not be taking him to shows where he is going to pose a danger to himself and more importantly other people, as he has done.  I would look at returning him to as natural state as possible whilst still handling daily and slowly taking things back to basics.


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## Achinghips (16 July 2012)

Please take this as constructive and not patronising - I don't know you or your regime - just trying to help.

Ok, taking it that you've explored pain reactions and back, teeth saddle etc ... Perhaps you just have a bad one, genetics and that etc, as others have suggested. What is your yard like, is it too frantic/busy so he doesn't feel safe?

We need to know more about your daily routine to answer fully but
to be as  solution focused as poss with the info you have given:

Joinup and groudwork is a must but I'm not sure if he's too far gone by your description.
Have you done any groundwork minus a whip? ie, pushing him back if he barges, ignoring minor bad behaviour but teaching consequences with no fuss, have you tried joinup etc?

Sounds like you have a vicious circle going on with the whip and he's reacting to it. People = whip perhaps?  This would be very threatening to a horse. Have you tried phasing out whip by pairing it with voice (one syllable is enough, such as "bahh" or "Err"), thus phasing whip out.  If not, you may be deep in trouble.

Either way, you can't undo this in the current environment as horses learn by context and the environment is part of this.

My advice is to change his surroundings by sending him away to a handler urgently as this behaviour is now learned and reinforced by context and will be environment specific and is being strengthened every minute.  

Either that or pts for your own safety, esp if you have little ones hanging around fussing and petting.


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## Fii (16 July 2012)

Just a thought but have you had his eyes checked? If its happens a lot from one side, maybe he has some sight loss in one eye? Just an idea!!


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## Bradsmum (16 July 2012)

My boy in no way showed such extreme behaviour but I found his behaviour improved by taking out any trace of molasses.  I too only feed mine chaff as he is in very light work but he also gets 24/7 turnout and the change has been enormous.  Allen & Page do no molasses/no barley feeds and a lot of people recommended me Fast Fibre but unfortunately this too did not seem to agree with him.  I have now sourced a local no fuss chaff that suits.  Best of luck I hope you get to the bottom of what's troubling him.  Stay safe.


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## millitiger (16 July 2012)

SusieT said:



			Turn him out the poor lad, only put jfor an hour a day and he's only young-probably fed up of having things done around him and needs to rest his head-not be out at shows. Don't lie against him etc. but treat him like a horse. Try him it full time with other horses and bring him in for anything you need to do. Don't mess him Round just do what training is required and turn him out again. Sounds I've he has just been overdone.
		
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I'd have to agree with this.

I definitely wouldn't be taking him to shows as I think, with current behaviour, you are just setting him and yourself up for failure.

I'd chuck him out until autumn, bring in and start work and if you are still having issues look into something like thermal imaging to see if there are any hot spots that your vet can investigate.


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## Ebenezer_Scrooge (16 July 2012)

Agreed with SusieT, turn him out 24/7 in a herd & let him have some time be a horse & chill out. I wouldn't have even contemplated taken him to a show if he was behaving like that.


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## Ebenezer_Scrooge (16 July 2012)

Agreed with SusieT turn him out in a herd 24/7. give him time to be a horse & chill out. I wouldn't have taken him to a show if he was behaving like that before in terms of safety to all.


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## siennamum (16 July 2012)

My youngster was a bit like this when he came to me. His only experiences of people hadn't been favorable so when not being gelded, microchipped and treated for ailments he was unhandled. He is still very food aggressive and I leave him alone when eating, he is v friendly and well socialised with other horses, and will back down from a fight - there is no relationship between his behaviour in a herd and him with people.

If someone or something has upset him (apart  from me- thank god) he will never forget and never forgive them - including my farrier, all vets, and a drainage dith a couple of fields away. 

He is now pretty transformed but it has taken 2 years.

From day one I drove him away using all means possible if he came at me (though not sure I'd be able to if he had been as serious as yours)

You don't win battles with mine, he has no concept that you might have got the upper hand or that it was pointless to argue, he just remembers the fight and doesn't forgive you. I have to break all problems down and demonstrate there is no reason to worry, and then praise wildly when you get the response you want. I have him completely addicted to praise and affection (including extra strong mints) and he gets despondent and frustrated when he hasn't done things right.

I leave him alone - My son went in to fuss him when he was laying down recently and he was happy to see him for a moment and then scowled at him - he really likes his own space & time. I make sure he is happy and relaxed, he is out as much as possible in a herd of playful boys.

I ignore the small stuff, he gets a lot more leeway than my other horses, but am zero tolerance on important things and if he were to  be nasty these days he would get a severe reprimand. 

I second the advice above about Paul Williamson (Endospink) he might give you advice remotely. I certainly have turned mine around, he is a joy to own these days because his issues stemmed from an active mind and he is very bright and funny now he isn't trying to eat you.


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## AengusOg (16 July 2012)

This horse needs to be turned away for a while. He's been in for a while and has had lots of trauma. He needs to let off steam and have some peace.

He also needs to be handled firmly and fairly, without any form of punishment. 

If a horse gets to the point where he is aggressive with all his feet and his teeth, it generally means that his handling has not been done correctly, and the handler(s) have failed to deal with the earlier behavioural problems. All horses exhibit subtle signs when they are trying their luck with their handlers. If the handler misses or ignores these early signs of dissent, the horse will grow in confidence. Before long the horse will be in total control and, because subtle signs don't seem to work, will quickly go to full blown attacks on the handler.

I would want to work with such a horse in a fairly large area, preferably a round pen, with a training halter, long rope, and a stick. I'd do in-hand work and a bit of lunging. The horse would need to learn that any form of intimidation of me would not be tolerated, and that there was a good chance his last hour had come if he threatened to do me in. If, however, he had a nice attitude toward me, he would be allowed to stand quietly for short spells between short spells of work.

I would not use any negative voice aids, or punish the horse in any way. If he got agressive with me, I would become dangerous enough to eat him, using any means necessary to stop him in his tracks. When he backed down, he would be given another chance to be good. When he was good, I'd tell him so in light, encouraging tones.

Your horse needs everything in black and white, and needs to learn that if he is nice, so are you, but you are too dangerous to push around. He needs a confident handler who can read him and act accordingly, and who will set boundaries on his behaviour, without shouting, slapping, or giving way to him.

Once he knows that, you can start doing some meaningful and consistent groundwork with him, making sure he learns how to yield to pressure and move around when you ask him to, and that you will not yield to him at all. You need to read the signs he will give you, and deal calmly, assertively, and consistently with any attempts at intimidation from him.

Everything is on his terms at the moment. He allows you to lie down with him, he tolerates (or not) people around him, and everyone scatters when he changes his mind. He needs to know that you have the power to change his mind, and you allow him to do things which suit you, not him.

Treated thus, his trust in you will increase and he will start to see you as a source of confidence. Instead of wanting to get rid of you, he will want to be with you because the alternative is that you will drive him away and keep him away until his attitude changes for the better, then you will allow him to be near you.

Black and white, no polos, no 'maybe this times', no fuzzy lines, no concessions until it's sorted. You ask, he does. He's bad, you're too dangerous.
 He's nice, you're nice.


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## Kallibear (16 July 2012)

I feel very sorry for him actually.

He's had a lot of horrible, painful things done to him in his short life, and been forced to endure it. He's spent far too much time inside without horse friends. Some horses would tolerate it, other fall to peices and become nervous wrecks, and some will fight back: he sounds like a fighting back type.

I don't fully understand your last post (lack of punctuation etc) but I also think you're negelgent for taking a horse out to shows etc when you know him to be potentially dangerous. He could easily have killed someone. 

AengusOg has said exactly what I would do with him: turn him out, do minimal work with him and teach him to respect humans. 

I think you could do with some outside help. We all handle horses in a slighty different way and, even though probably very competant, your way clearly doesn't suit him. If it did you wouldn't be in this situation!! It's hard to change habit so getting someone it give you a hand would be good idea.


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## Maesfen (16 July 2012)

Couldn't agree more than with Aengus.


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## MagicMelon (16 July 2012)

It sounds like he's defensive rather than nasty. He's had 2 injuries which sound like they've significantly added to his aggression, I'd say they probably hurt!  It hurt him when you tried to treat the injuries and when he showed this, you smacked him with a whip. Hence, he's now learnt that people basically can cause him pain. You say you can't smack the horse, but you say you have done... which sounds like its really wound him up. As others have said, definately turn him out, poor horse sounds fed up and bored too.

I had a horse who was pretty bolshy, when I first got him he'd flatten his ears at me and threaten to boot me over his feed. He was simply very defensive, had I raised a whip to him he would have got seriously worse. I was firm with him at all times, but never did I need to smack him. Praise worked best with him, I'd almost ignore the bad behaviour and give him masses of praise for anything good he did. He thrived on that. That's what I'd try with this horse, take a step right back from him and try to encourage him to succeed - if you walk near him and he pricks his ears then tell him how good he is etc.

You said you took him to his first event... was this wise considering the serious problem you seem to be having with him at home?!  You're not setting the poor horse up to succeed at all. I think its dreadful that you allowed this clearly unhappy horse to be amongst other people and their horses who sound like they were lucky not to get kicked. From your post, I think you said you yelled at the judge for jabbing your horse in the mouth so presumably she rode him - again, does this sound wise?!  Personally it sounds like you need to find someone else for this horse, as others have said it sounds like your method doesnt seem to be working. Its nothing against you as such, but I think certain people suit certain horses - you two sound like you really clash!


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## jhoward (16 July 2012)

hi all will read and reply over next few days, as horse well
and truely broke me, im back in hospital awaitonh an op,


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## Pale Rider (16 July 2012)

AengusOg has saved me a lot of typing, spot on I reckon.


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## pip6 (16 July 2012)

Given you have said he's not backed I would take it judge caught him & used reins/bit strongly to try & control him. Can you really justify yelling at the judge for taking control when you had allowed your horse to become out of control & a danger to others? Why on this planet did you take him to a public place shuch as a show when he shows this level of aggression? Sorry to sound harsh, but if I'd taken one of my youngsters to the show & been in the ring with this horse running riot I would have been absolutely livid at you given you know he has behavioural issues. Sort them at home without endangering others. You're hurt, virtually self-inflicted you knew the risks with this guy, how would you be doing right now if he'd kicked one of the people who tried to catch him in the head & killed them?

Please involve your vet & rule out all physical problems. I have known a nasty horse, to my knowledge not mistreated (knew home where he came from, local huntsman who said he terrified him but would jump anything, bought to jump). He was left in field as so dangerous, even macho man down stables tried to take him on loan & after few weeks refused to go near him. I only felt safe when with my old mare, if he came over (part of problem was his unpredictability) she would try to kill him (always thought she could sense I didn't want him near). Ended up PTS for safety reasons. You bought a horse by stallion known to be aggressive, sounds like mistake IMHO. We would never use stallion who wasn't well mannered & nice guy. No good having a world-beater if temperament makes them useless.

Have you noticed at livery yards it is the people who are scared of horses or feeling out of control in a situation that are the most aggressive? Not for one moment suggesting this is you, but maybe it is him. Totally agree about turnout. Our eventing & endurance babies live out 24/7 & grow up on grass, no molasses (such as on molichaf), no corn etc. Handled everyday, usually just fuss over, feet lifting practice etc but pleasent for them. Never hand fed any treats, whips never used. Also turned out with old dominant mare who really teaches them manners & appropriate behaviour.


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## Persephone (16 July 2012)

Hang on I'm abit confused! The horse isn't broken, so what was the judge doing jabbing him in the mouth? How/why did that happen?

Have to agree with the others, mightily silly to take a horse  to  a show when you know how badly he behaves.

I have a 17hh 3 y/o filly who liked to think she was no1. It has taken almost a year of groundwork to get to a stage where I can confidently leave her being held by someone else but me. It has been constant, consistent work, and I have never laid a finger on her in anger or otherwise. She hurt me, really hurt me a few times, but what we have now is fab, and I am proud of her and me! I STILL would think long and hard about taking her into a show environment, because IF somebody else got hurt, I would never  forgive myself.


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## Ladyinred (16 July 2012)

Persephone said:



Hang on I'm abit confused! The horse isn't broken, so what was the judge doing jabbing him in the mouth? How/why did that happen?

Have to agree with the others, mightily silly to take a horse  to  a show when you know how badly he behaves.
I have a 17hh 3 y/o filly who liked to think she was no1. It has taken almost a year of groundwork to get to a stage where I can confidently leave her being held by someone else but me. It has been constant, consistent work, and I have never laid a finger on her in anger or otherwise. She hurt me, really hurt me a few times, but what we have now is fab, and I am proud of her and me! I STILL would think long and hard about taking her into a show environment, because IF somebody else got hurt, I would never  forgive myself.
		
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I am starting to suspect that jhowards sense of humour has motivated this thread and it is all a wind up, especially in light of the recent troll thread!


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## Persephone (16 July 2012)

Ladyinred said:



			I am starting to suspect that jhowards sense of humour has motivated this thread and it is all a wind up, especially in light of the recent troll thread!
		
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Wind up? Blatant Lies?

Not very funny really.


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## JingleTingle (16 July 2012)

I find it hard to believe this could be a deliberate wind up thread. If it is or isn't my response is the same.

OP you do not sound as though you have the temperament or patience to help this horse, knowledge and experience has very little to do with it when you are dealing with such a troubled horse. But attitude and consistent patient handling has...but from your posts I fear you  do not have this type of of personality.

Not really a criticism, just an observation from how you paint a picture of yourself. We are all very different in how we interact with horses, and maybe he will not thrive with you because you will never have the necessary temperament to bond and gain the respect of this particular horse?

If this is posted as a wind up then I feel it actually paints a picture of a very strange person indeed to find this topic even mildly amusing?


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## PandorasJar (16 July 2012)

Ladyinred said:



			I am starting to suspect that jhowards sense of humour has motivated this thread and it is all a wind up, especially in light of the recent troll thread!
		
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I'm inclined to say not from previous threads about the same(I assume) horse.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=491269

I'm stepping straight back out the thread as am not going to begin commenting on how wrongly this has been gone about.

If it is a wind up it's not amusing in the slightest. If it's not I feel truly sorry for the horse

Pan


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## Ladyinred (16 July 2012)

PandorasJar said:



			I'm inclined to say not from previous threads about the same(I assume) horse.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=491269

I'm stepping straight back out the thread as am not going to begin commenting on how wrongly this has been gone about.

If it is a wind up it's not amusing in the slightest. If it's not I feel truly sorry for the horse

Pan
		
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Thanks for the link. Just read it and, like you, am now backing off. Poor horse.


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## Queenbee (16 July 2012)

From what I know its not a wind up, JH has indeed damaged her hand as is having an operation on it, its on her facebook.  JH, I have no real words of advice on this one.  I do think that it was foolish to take him out showing with his current issues   but I would turn him away and be looking to the vet for investigations into this, and also getting someone in, or sending him to someone who can perhaps unravel his brain and behaviour if this is behavioural.  I worry that with this one you are out of your depth hun and wouldn't want you, your horse or anyone else to get hurt further.xx


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## Nightmare before Christmas (16 July 2012)

Chuck him out until you can send him to someone who actually knows what they are doing. I wouldnt say its a pain response, I think he is taking you for a ride because you have let him


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## Always Henesy (16 July 2012)

Queenbee said:



			From what I know its not a wind up, JH has indeed damaged her hand as is having an operation on it, its on her facebook.  JH, I have no real words of advice on this one.  I do think that it was foolish to take him out showing with his current issues   but I would turn him away and be looking to the vet for investigations into this, and also getting someone in, or sending him to someone who can perhaps unravel his brain and behaviour if this is behavioural.  I worry that with this one you are out of your depth hun and wouldn't want you, your horse or anyone else to get hurt further.xx
		
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This ^^^
Definitely no wind up. JH is currently having an op to mend a pretty badly messed up finger.
As above hun xx


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## Queenbee (16 July 2012)

On a further note JH, I missed the previous post (re backing him) and I would (although not clinically trained to diagnose) agree it is probably not pain, I think that he is taking the pee.  It would seem to me that you have stated a lot that he is not a horse that deals well with pressure, I think he has picked up from you that you do not trust him, and that you won't push him, and he has developed this behaviour as a result.  I understand that he didn't come to you in the best of states, and I know what its like to treat a horse according to its past... god, the way I tip toed around ebony, because she'd never experienced x or y, or because she was of a delicate nature and couldn't handle this or that, the ways I backed down, wholeheartedly believing that it was in her interest.  Bottom line was that it wasn't, and as soon as I gave her no excuse and took no pratting around, she improved in her behaviour and her general demeanour 100 fold.  

In the other thread Monty Roberts demos, are mentioned, something that you say you strongly considered, but worry because A) he doesn't react well to pressure and B) He only seems to trust you.  I personally would take a punt and say for that very reason a MR/approach is exactly what he needs to ground him.  It would seem to me that if this is all attitude and behaviour, the best thing for him is that he has to deal with pressure, he has to learn to take it and that there is no getting out of it with attitude, that the only way he will get away from pressure is from behaving.  He also needs to learn that this doesn't just apply to one handler... he is required to respect and behave well for any human, and he needs to learn these two facts of life before anything else.

I get what you are saying, he needs you, you are the only one that he trusts, I had the same with ebony, one day I bit the bullet (for a loading issue) and someone else had her loading within minutes, after that day she was never ever a problem to load (and I could leave her a yr inbetween loads)  Its hard to say someone else would be better placed to fix my horse for me but in that case it was true, and in your case I believe it is too.  If someone else can come in as a stranger, put pressure on your horse, and elcit respectful behaviour, then you have fixed your 2 main problems.  Your horse needs to lose a battle, he needs to feel pressure, and give in to it, learn not to challenge it - because it won't get him anywhere, and he needs someone else to do this, to learn that he can trust others.

From what Ive read and what I know of you, I truly believe that this will be the making of your horse and your partnership, its the right thing to do for you both.

All the best and hope you are hurting less now xx


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## cronkmooar (16 July 2012)

I have to say I was more than a bit surprised that anyone - in particular an experienced person - would consider it to be a good idea to bring this horse to a show.  

If you don't care about your safety - what about others on the showground?

I didn't think that I could read anything more stupid, and then I opened the other thread - 6 year old child on him, justified by she had a hat on, her mother was holding her and he knew the child - seriously?

If this thread had been posted by a user that was not a regular the pack would have been out and after blood - surprising how different it is when its a forum regular.


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## redriverrock (16 July 2012)

Is this for real? Have read the thread but it just seems so bizarre...surely no one can be that daft. Makes me so cross to see numpties ruining young horses, who is going to sort the poor thing out when you have had enough which I really hope is sooner rather than later. Thats all Im going to say...am now running for cover


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## Queenbee (16 July 2012)

redriverrock said:



			Is this for real? Have read the thread but it just seems so bizarre...surely no one can be that daft. Makes me so cross to see numpties ruining young horses, who is going to sort the poor thing out when you have had enough which I really hope is sooner rather than later. Thats all Im going to say...am now running for cover
		
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RRR, JH has successfully broken in a number of horses prior to this one, just because someone struggles with one horse, and arguably makes a few errors of judgement, does not mean that such an insulting post is called for.  Would it not be prudent to not post at all if you are unable to draw on your own experience and offer some constructive words of advice?


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## Ibblebibble (16 July 2012)

cronkmooar said:



			I have to say I was more than a bit surprised that anyone - in particular an experienced person - would consider it to be a good idea to bring this horse to a show.  

If you don't care about your safety - what about others on the showground?

I didn't think that I could read anything more stupid, and then I opened the other thread - 6 year old child on him, justified by she had a hat on, her mother was holding her and he knew the child - seriously?

If this thread had been posted by a user that was not a regular the pack would have been out and after blood - surprising how different it is when its a forum regular.

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absolutely cronkmooar, while i feel very sorry that JH has a smashed up hand i think it's actually lucky it wasn't worse.


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## Devonshire dumpling (16 July 2012)

I feel very sorry for JH, and they have always offered me advice, but what I will say is just because someone has successfully broken in horses and years of experience, doesn't mean they always get it right, taking the youngster to a show with aggression issues beggars belief, what if a little child had been killed/person/dog anything.... good job it was JH and not an innocent party!


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## Equilibrium Ireland (16 July 2012)

I read a lot of the posts but I missed sticking a 6yo child on one. I really don't give a hoot how much experience you have, this is very wrong. It might give you comfort to see him in this light and say to yourself, see he's not that bad. The only thing predictable about this horse is his unpredictability. 

Part of being a good horseperson is knowing when you need help or that you need to send away for a bit. I've broken hundreds of horses, bred my own and raised youngsters. Maybe started as pain but now it's more of him just doing what the heck he wants any time he wants. I will also ad, if you need to treat nasty wounds on a horse daily, either pay for that vet to tranq everyday or learn to give tranq shots. No point in being a hero and it's not pleasant for you or horse. I had to do this with a hind leg injury on one of mine. I really don't care of the legalities. Saved my horse discomfort and me and him were safe. 

I have no real advice because I don't know exactly what's going on. You do need to face reality. If you want this horse right you may need to move and seek professional help. Young horses sometimes aren't suited to the rigors of a livery yard. He probably needed more of being a horse at times instead of being fussed over as your partner for life. I do not think your horse was abused previous. Stop making excuses. You need to make some decisions based on the horse and not yourself. What's best for him? FWIW, I'm not suggesting PTS. This horse needs a new environment and someone with more experience. And then you will have to learn that at all times he is to be taken serious. A riding partner for life does not always mean a Hollywood film huggy horse saves my life. It's not always the magic bond people seem intent on having. It's routine, working, and giving that horse his time outside being a horse. Consistency and preserverance. 

Terri


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## Tinypony (16 July 2012)

I hope the operation on JH's hand goes well and she makes a rapid recovery.
Can I pick up on something from the other thread?
"the other day when we had the bad weather i went to get him in and couldnt even get a head collar on him, kept on and managed. brough him in and he had a full on paddy throwing himself on the floor in the stable, he was not rolling it was more, omg im cold, omg wet, omg im hungry, horrific to watch, one of the liveries said am i going to do anything, i said no im watching he doesnt get stuck but let him do it he has to learn not to be brat!"
That's really worrying.  Horses don't throw themselves on the floor to be "naughty", there's something going badly wrong here.  I would suggest that it's not a situation where you should dismiss it as the horse being a "brat".  I understand that JH has broken other horses in the past (not my choice of word), but maybe this one is a bit different and needs a different approach.  Maybe others could recommend a good trainer when she comes back?  Someone who has some grasp of equine behaviour would be good.  Meanwhile, turn him out.


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## Mithras (16 July 2012)

Poor horse.  

What on earth is all this stuff about leaning against him, sitting beside him when he is sleeping, etc?  Forget all of that nonsense and treat him like a typical young, slightly unrepredicatable horse.  Stop the shouting, whacking, etc and be more consistent.  Tie him up or move him outside when in the stable - he is clearly showing territorial behaviour, probably exacerbated because he is inside too much.

Lead him in a bridle, sedate him when treating injuries, give him proper turnout and companionship, don't take him to shows yet and hopefully sell him on to someone who is more suited to him.  All of this stuff is very basic but you seem to be doing something else, and hence having problems as a result.

Some horses are more tolerant than others.  Some respond to praise and when cornered in a stable and unable to get away, react to aggression with aggression back.  This boy probably responds to gentle treatment and praise more than shouting and aggression.  He sounds insecure, worried and defensive.

Some people just do not gel with certain types of horses.  This might not be the horse for you.


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## Moomin1 (16 July 2012)

I have to say I was being as diplomatic as I could and biting my tongue earlier.  But I can't hold it in any longer!

OP, by the sounds of your handling of this poor horse - ie whipping at the sign of any 'misbehaviour' and throwing whips etc at him, I can only suggest that your poor handling has resulted in his behaviour.  You do come across as the sort of loud and brash type shouty handler who tends to think the first port of call is to punish, punish, punish.  I also don't quite get (and forgive me if I have read this wrongly), your logic of 'going to get a treat' when he needed praise,  So you actually walked off to get a treat to then give to him when you returned as a praise for something positive he did?  If so then that beggars belief - do you not realise that the praise should come immediately, not five or ten minutes later?!!  He won't have associated that treat with anything.

As for taking him to a show, utterly negligent, poor horsemanship, poor judgement, and to be quite frank you sound like one of those nightmare people at a show who causes disruption and moans at the judge when it doesn't go your way.  How can you possibly have a go at the judge for 'jabbing him in the mouth' when you yourself seem to spend your days whipping, smacking and throwing whips at this horse?


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## Equilibrium Ireland (16 July 2012)

Moomim, I agree to a point. I don't think anything has done by feel and timing. More niggled at with punishment than a clear and definite, this is not acceptable ever. Does not mean beating, could mean a smack, could mean a growl. 

A show is a disaster in the making. Horse needs a professional now. 

Terri


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## 0310Star (16 July 2012)

Mithras said:



			Poor horse.  

What on earth is all this stuff about leaning against him, sitting beside him when he is sleeping, etc?  Forget all of that nonsense and treat him like a typical young, slightly unrepredicatable horse.  Stop the shouting, whacking, etc and be more consistent.  Tie him up or move him outside when in the stable - he is clearly showing territorial behaviour, probably exacerbated because he is inside too much.

Lead him in a bridle, sedate him when treating injuries, give him proper turnout and companionship, don't take him to shows yet and hopefully sell him on to someone who is more suited to him.  All of this stuff is very basic but you seem to be doing something else, and hence having problems as a result.

Some horses are more tolerant than others.  Some respond to praise and when cornered in a stable and unable to get away, react to aggression with aggression back.  This boy probably responds to gentle treatment and praise more than shouting and aggression.  He sounds insecure, worried and defensive.

Some people just do not gel with certain types of horses.  This might not be the horse for you.
		
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^^^^^ this.

I am no expert, but I would say 100% this horse is not getting enough turnout. I have a 14yo TB mare, who doesn't have a bad bone in her. If she was in as much as your lad she would probably be acting about the same! Being in all the time doesn't suit some/a lot of horses and the more he is out being a horse in a herd, no doubt the happier he will be and the more chilled he will be to start to basics with him again.
Good luck!


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## Ladyinred (16 July 2012)

baker190 said:



			^^^^^ this.

I am no expert, but I would say 100% this horse is not getting enough turnout. I have a 14yo TB mare, who doesn't have a bad bone in her. If she was in as much as your lad she would probably be acting about the same! Being in all the time doesn't suit some/a lot of horses and the more he is out being a horse in a herd, no doubt the happier he will be and the more chilled he will be to start to basics with him again.
Good luck!
		
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Tinypony said:



			I hope the operation on JH's hand goes well and she makes a rapid recovery.
Can I pick up on something from the other thread?
"the other day when we had the bad weather i went to get him in and couldnt even get a head collar on him, kept on and managed. brough him in and he had a full on paddy throwing himself on the floor in the stable, he was not rolling it was more, omg im cold, omg wet, omg im hungry, horrific to watch, one of the liveries said am i going to do anything, i said no im watching he doesnt get stuck but let him do it he has to learn not to be brat!"
That's really worrying.  Horses don't throw themselves on the floor to be "naughty", there's something going badly wrong here.  I would suggest that it's not a situation where you should dismiss it as the horse being a "brat".  I understand that JH has broken other horses in the past (not my choice of word), but maybe this one is a bit different and needs a different approach.  Maybe others could recommend a good trainer when she comes back?  Someone who has some grasp of equine behaviour would be good.  Meanwhile, turn him out.
		
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Agree with both the above. Very worrying behaviour from any horse and an even more worrying interpretation of it. Horses don't 'do' brat. They don't throw themselves on the ground with out very good reason. It's hardwired into them that the ground can be a dangerous place.

Turn the poor creature out while he is young enough to (hopefully) forget most of this and forget about shows etc. Let him be a horse with other horses.

And for goodness sake get some help from someone who actually knows what they are doing.


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## Traveller59 (16 July 2012)

OMG ... What a disaster.  I feel so sorry for this horse

I think as has been said by other posters this poor horse is associating you with pain.... not just once or twice... but again and again.

I think you need to break the cycle of this association and let him be a horse again, turn him out/away and go back to basics.  A small feed and a groom, and give him the time and patience he deserves.

I'm sure you have had other successes with your method, but this horse is damaged and perhaps needs a fresh approach.

p.s.
Throw that stick away!


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## irishdraft (16 July 2012)

JH I feel I must agree with previous posters, it dosent, on what you have posted sound like your young horse is getting enough down time in the field, grazing, chilling and mixing with others. There is no way I would only have a horse out for an hour a day, specially one that wasnt even getting proper work. Sorry if that was only when weather was bad, so many posts cannot remember them all now, even so good or bad weather it isnt enough. I have known two "nasty" horses in my 40 years, one was foot pain related, farrier cutting the feet back so much horse was lame every time it was shod, dont ask, this was along time ago now when i worked on a big livery yard.  The other was a very big young horse that was bred by someone not particularly knowlegeable but he did send it to Richard Maxwell to be broken etc but it was always a nightmare to handle, rearing, kicking, biting when ridden it would buck, dump people left right and centre, in the end he sold it to a very large man and hey presto it was a happy ending. The change of enviroment, he was kept on the big livery yard I worked at, then went to private home and a much bigger more confident person handling him all the time made all the difference. Im not saying you are not confident as obviously i dont know you but sometimes change of person/enviroment can make all the difference. I hope you get it sorted.


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## Briony&Anakin (16 July 2012)

I don't really have time to read all the posts, sorry, but what I will say is turnout could well be a real issue. I have a 4 year old who is absolutely good as gold (can be very cheeky of course!) But never nasty. He has always had good turnout but one time we were moving yards but coudlnt move to his new yard for 3 weeks, odd situation but ended up at another stable for the 3 weeks, left with no other choice as we had to leave the other yard. Anyhow, it was a competition yard and all fields were shut for the winter, the horses only came out of their stables to be skipped out and that was that. My beautiful calm boy turned into the devil himself in a matter of days, kicking, biting, it was so distressing. Luckily we were able to move to our new place faster than anticipated and he was straight back to normal within a few days of being back to living out. It just goes to show though what being cooped up can do to a youngster.


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## charlie76 (16 July 2012)

Not read all replies so sorry if not relevant but I would back him,  get him in work,  give him some thing to think about and get him. Under the thumb.


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## Tormenta (16 July 2012)

Since you are not sure of where his issues exactly stem from then I would start using some of the ideas that posters here have given you. Keep a diary of his behaviour and any changes. For example, turnout, less pressure on him from handling etc, vet check up to eliminate any medical issues, a return to basics, praise and reward in his daily routine etc. and also note any improvements/setbacks or reactions from him. 

I would say that many times with abused animals there are often triggers to a horse's reaction, i.e. an arm held high, someone swinging a bucket, touching ears or another body part, shouting, fear of an enclosed space etc so if you DO think he has had abuse or rough handling in his formative young life then these triggers need to be addressed, recognised and rectified. They may never be completely forgotten but you can get a useful, rewarding animal when the triggers are recognised.

You need to find the basis of his behaviour and reactions and deal with them appropriately, even if it means bringing someone else in as a behaviourist to help. Good luck.


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## PercyMum (16 July 2012)

I do feel very sorry for the OP, but I agree with what many have said - it doesn't sound like the horse and her are right for each other.  I bought what sounds like a very similar horse (in fact I did a double-take at the pics as they are almost identical).

This horse had NEVER had any unfortunate experiences.  He would also throw himself on the floor if told 'No'.  His favourite party piece was to rear up and try and kick you in the face.  Not nice at 17.3hh and only 5!!  NH lady believed that he was a pet homebred who was never shown the rules and I had to deal with the fallout.  Only I chose not to.  I am not the most patient person in the world and I do have a quick temper.  I am also mature enough to admit this and sold the horse on for a notional sum and FULL disclosure of all his issues to a lovely lady in Wales who (quite literally) ignores all his crappy behavior, whereas I used to try and correct it.  Because she doesnt react to his shenanigans, it doesn't allow him to be a brat.  He is now doing very well so all well that ends well.

My point is is that there is alot of excellent advice on here but I am not sue that the OP is the person to implement it.  And that isnt a shameful thing to admit - we can't be all things to all horses.  Even Mary King gave up with a horse that didn't suit her and her him!


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## Rose Folly (16 July 2012)

One of the saddest threads I've read on the forum. Agree with Susie T, Moomin, Recriverrock, Equilibrium Ireland et al so much.

Frankely, I don't think you are the person for this horse. What I gleaned from your original post was not a nasty horse but a deeply traumatised horse - and all the hitting him then treats, then sitting down beside him is totally inconsistent.

I've had this kind of experience only once, and I won't bore everyone with it here. But it took me about 3 years to undo what had been done to this particular poor mare - and it was mainly neglecting her needs, not bullying. She came to me biting, kicking - she'd double barrelled former owner's son out of the stable, fractured two dogs' skulls.etc. etc.

I'm only a very average horsewoman but who's been around horses a long time. Everything I read on your post makes me feel you are not the person to handle this situation.

I am very sorry that you have to have an op. (and that isn't going to help the relationship any). Please listen to what people wiser and with moree xperience of young horses have to say to you on here. I realise that you yourself are experienced, but we never stop learning!


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## marlyclay (17 July 2012)

How are you jh. I hope the surgery on your hand has gone well and you are back home


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## ter21wat (17 July 2012)

I totally agree with anyone who has mentioned that lack of turn out may be the problem. It is in a horse natural make up to be constantly on the move and to be continuously eating....in the wild horses can cover over 20 miles per day and spend 60/70% of its time eating. With this horse being stabled 23hrs per day and taken out in hand for the remaining hour, with no additional exercise, it iss not getting the oportunity to behave the way a horse should. Its no wonder this horse is full of pent up aggression....he is 3 years old and he never gets the chance to kick up his heels (in the field I mean) or play with his friends or do anything a horse naturally needs to do to remain balanced and sane!

I can tell you if I was locked in my house for 23hrs a day with no other exercise I would turn aggresive pretty quickly!!


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## Achinghips (17 July 2012)

ter21wat said:



			I can tell you if I was locked in my house for 23hrs a day with no other exercise I would turn aggresive pretty quickly!!
		
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How about one small room then, like this horse? Had no idea that this horse had such little turnout.

Agree with others, turn him away so he can get his head to understand the world around him.


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## jhoward (17 July 2012)

im ok well buggered hand but he ho,
excuse me for any bluntness but a ga and typing with one hand has that efect, a few points to clear up.

no im not a bloody troll. what a stupid thing to say.

horse has been seen by a vet... twice in last month and an osteo.

horse gets pleanty of turnout and normally lives out but due to weather has had to have time off the land.

horse has competed since a baby, so a show was no biggy, i choose  small quiet indoor show for his 1st outing with me. he never barring being inpatiant..ie not wanting stand didnt put a foot wrong, he had a spook... worth noting here, that in the line up one horse spooked and set the others off.. he oddly was the only one that didnt react.

yes i let go,600 kg of horse had just broken/ruptured my finger. it was a freak accident not the horse being nasty

he was caught, then the judge took hold of him and stood consitatly jabbing him in the gob. i dont care what any one says. it was not acceptable for her to do it.

once again i will point out that he is not a nasty horse, thats the hole point of this thread. he wouldnt just lash out as u walked behind him for example.

as it happens i have had a professional come out and work with us in regards to getting him broken. he then had an accident which prevented further work. he was at the point of being sat on happily.

for all of u going poor horse etc, i think not, this lad was a bargy ***** when i got him... that grooms were scared to lead. hes very polite on the ground, leads well... i coyldnt get near him with a bridle, he was scared, he would shake get the runs etc.
my handling of him has got him as far as he has come, he is still different with other people, but that wil come in time.
small things we can now do, easy to bridle, wash with a hose etc
re the whip.. he is not a horse u can jab and say stand.. he goes up (this can be related to his time before me and the use of chains/chifneys etc)so with him one smack and a stand does the job, when hes done asked he is rewarded.

re sitting wih him. always have done and its one of the ways ive gt him over his ear phobia etc.

as it happens  agree horse needs to be broken, but with my injury and winter on its way ive dcided that turning im away is the better option.

thanks to thoose that have pmd, and offered helpful advice. the rest of u can frankly not bother.. hardly constructive were u. 

ah well im chuffed that after5 years as a member ive finally been called a troll lol


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## jhoward (17 July 2012)

Achinghips said:



			How about one small room then, like this horse? Had no idea that this horse had such little turnout.

Agree with others, turn him away so he can get his head to understand the world around him.
		
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christ, a small room? this horse is in a 30 foot by 20 foot barn what on earth do u think of people that keep horses in  a 12 x 12 room


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## jhoward (17 July 2012)

ter21wat said:



			I totally agree with anyone who has mentioned that lack of turn out may be the problem. It is in a horse natural make up to be constantly on the move and to be continuously eating....in the wild horses can cover over 20 miles per day and spend 60/70% of its time eating. With this horse being stabled 23hrs per day and taken out in hand for the remaining hour, with no additional exercise, it iss not getting the oportunity to behave the way a horse should. Its no wonder this horse is full of pent up aggression....he is 3 years old and he never gets the chance to kick up his heels (in the field I mean) or play with his friends or do anything a horse naturally needs to do to remain balanced and sane!

I can tell you if I was locked in my house for 23hrs a day with no other exercise I would turn aggresive pretty quickly!!
		
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he is 4 not 3... i think people are failing to read properly and  just making things up


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## thehorsephotographer (17 July 2012)

Just come back to this thread blimey are people always as judgemental on here when asked for advice? There seems to have been a lot of supposition going on.

Oh and what's a troll? I thought it was a fictional thing from Billy Goats Gruff but seen it mentioned a few times on here.


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## YasandCrystal (17 July 2012)

jhoward said:



			for all of u going poor horse etc, i think not, this lad was a bargy ***** when i got him... that grooms were scared to lead. hes very polite on the ground, leads well... i coyldnt get near him with a bridle, he was scared, he would shake get the runs etc.
my handling of him has got him as far as he has come, he is still different with other people, but that wil come in time.
small things we can now do, easy to bridle, wash with a hose etc
re the whip.. he is not a horse u can jab and say stand.. he goes up (this can be related to his time before me and the use of chains/chifneys etc)so with him one smack and a stand does the job, when hes done asked he is rewarded.
		
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OP you say this and you said 
'now ive dealt with horses that are nasty.. but never one that become nasty, his sire was nasty so that could be part of it. 

i know ive mentioned the whip but he is not hit about, he isnt the sort of horse you can do that to, normally a firm no and he backs it in, but tonight was worthy of a bullet. 

so what havnt i thought about.. why is a horse becoming nasty.? 

It is a fine line between 'bargy/pushy/full of himself' and downright rude/nasty.  Rearing is reaction he has no doubt learnt when he was scared or told off to get the upperhand and feel better himself.

I think posters are genuinely surprised that you posted for advice for clearly a problem of sorts, yet you took your horse to a show when you know he has issues, which still need addressing.


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## YasandCrystal (17 July 2012)

thehorsephotographer said:



			Just come back to this thread blimey are people always as judgemental on here when asked for advice? There seems to have been a lot of supposition going on.

Oh and what's a troll? I thought it was a fictional thing from Billy Goats Gruff but seen it mentioned a few times on here.
		
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Isn't it one of those rubber weird figures with colourful hair from the 70's?? Sadly I am old enough to remember them well.


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## ter21wat (17 July 2012)

jhoward said:



			he is 4 not 3... i think people are failing to read properly and  just making things up
		
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Apologies, I had miss read your very first post (which is a very long way down the line now having read every post on this thread!) where you said you have a 16.2 4yr old bought as a 3 year old. And to be fair 3 or 4 I dont really doesnt make that much difference in this situ 

I was not trying to be rude or unhelpful I just thought that after you posted "he gets to go out, but weather wise it may be for only an hour, but hes doing something in hand monst days even if its 5 mins up the road and back" it implied that he might only be out his stable for 1hr 5 mins each day, weather depending, which with the weather the way it has been lately could have been for a while. I know my mare goes loopyloo even when just being stabled overnight and becomes very, very difficult to work with.....therefore she is out 24/7 and is much happier for it. You posted on this forum for advice and that was my suggestion. If I upset you I apologise. I can only go on the information provided by you in your posts.


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## Persephone (17 July 2012)

I have to agree I read the turnout situation the same way!

Ijust wonderJH if he has been beaten before, don't you think the fact you often seem  to have a whip to hand might be worrying for him? 

Obviously that's not the whole problem, but if you are not holding a whip you cannot use it in anger. I mean throwing a whip at him? What will that achieve?

ETS hope your hand is feeling better


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## Achinghips (17 July 2012)

jhoward said:



			christ, a small room? this horse is in a 30 foot by 20 foot barn what on earth do u think of people that keep horses in  a 12 x 12 room 

Click to expand...

You said he was turned out for about an hour a day with some work even if just for 5 mins, most stables are 12 x 12 and that may be considered big by some.  I  dont know many with a stable 30 foot by 20 foot, if you had stipulated this and provided further information in your post, misunderstandings would not occur.

However, many people here appear to be offering good advice that you asked for about  your handling (such as myself),  the age of rider, and suitability of a show envionment.  This is all based on information you have provided.


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## Lucyad (17 July 2012)

jhoward said:



			for all of u going poor horse etc, i think not, this lad was a bargy ***** when i got him... that grooms were scared to lead. hes very polite on the ground, leads well... i coyldnt get near him with a bridle, he was scared, he would shake get the runs etc.
my handling of him has got him as far as he has come, he is still different with other people, but that wil come in time.
small things we can now do, easy to bridle, wash with a hose etc
re the whip.. he is not a horse u can jab and say stand.. he goes up (this can be related to his time before me and the use of chains/chifneys etc)so with him one smack and a stand does the job, when hes done asked he is rewarded.
		
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I would still be thinking 'poor horse' TBH - after all you say imediately after (above) that he was scared, would shake and get the runs when presented with a bridle - OK you seem to have made improvements since then, which is great, but it still sounds to me like a confused scared defensive animal lashing out and throwing himself to the ground because it is all he has got left to express how is feeling about how he is being handled, rather than 'naughtyness'.

Things that jump out to me is the use of a whip to move a horse when in an enclosed space therefore not allowing him to get away from it - also use of a smack as a cue to stand (in quote above?) - not sure how that is intended to work?  Also confusion about how to reward, already picked u by other posters earlier in the thread.  Lots of good advice posted.  Shame about your defensive attitude.


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## pip6 (17 July 2012)

jhoward said:



			once again i will point out that he is not a nasty horse]

But you say he is nasty even in the title of the thread?

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## jools123 (17 July 2012)

jhoward said:



			no, its his way of having a hissy fit after being washed he doesnt roll but goes around liturally throwing him self down.
		
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i have been watching this post for a while.
am i the only one (sorry if i have missed something) who's horse hates being wet-when the water runs down her back legs she stamps her feet, after a bath (which she seems to enjoy) she will roll and roll and roll in her stable or field-if she comes in wet from the rain she rubs herself all over the haynet wiith great enthusiasm and then throws herself on the floor time ad time again- after 25yrs of working with horses i dont think of this as unusual behaviour and have never known a horses to be brat like (thats just my kids)


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## Footlights (17 July 2012)

I have been watching this thread with interest too. 

I just wanted to add that my horse can be nervous/aggressive in some situations. If I *EVER* smacked him with a whip, yet alone in an enclosed space, I am 100% sure I wouldn't be here to tell you about it. 

The only way that has worked for him is for me to be relaxed and calm at all times, even raising a hand to him can turn him into a wreck. I suspect your horse is feeling very anxious and defensive, and the only way he knows he is going to be safe is if he stands up for himself. 

I agree with others that turn out and start over may be your best option. He may even need new environment and owner to get over this.


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## Shilasdair (17 July 2012)

I've just read this thread - and am impressed by how many experts there are out there.  

Most of them appear to own the sort of horse which an explosion of dynamite won't upset, and are frankly abysmal riders (if their photographs/signatures are anything to go by).

Doesn't stop them pontificating about things/people/horses they know nothing about.

If you don't know what you're talking about/have no constructive - and detailed  - suggestions like AengusOg then shut the duck up.

Jhoward - hope your hand is healing.  I'm also called a troll frequently.  Clearly I am THE most covert troll in history, with 20k posts and no infractions but there's always the odd intellectually challenged poster willing to sling a few 'troll' names about.
S


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## Ibblebibble (17 July 2012)

so all is good then JH, since your first post the horse has changed from nasty to absolutely fine and you don't actually need any advice from anyone at all?!, marvellous, we'll all just stfu then shall we and leave you to it


oh and Shils, you are a troll, but the forum pet one ,here to keep us entertained on dull days, keep up the good trolling


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## Persephone (17 July 2012)

Footlights said:



			I have been watching this thread with interest too. 

I just wanted to add that my horse can be nervous/aggressive in some situations. If I *EVER* smacked him with a whip, yet alone in an enclosed space, I am 100% sure I wouldn't be here to tell you about it. 

The only way that has worked for him is for me to be relaxed and calm at all times, even raising a hand to him can turn him into a wreck. I suspect your horse is feeling very anxious and defensive, and the only way he knows he is going to be safe is if he stands up for himself. 

I agree with others that turn out and start over may be your best option. He may even need new environment and owner to get over this.
		
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Mine is exactly like that Footlights, apart from raising a hand, she would 't blink an eye! This filly is the most challenging I have had, and it has been a steep remembering curve 

I have been reared at, double barelled and plain knocked over and squashed against a wall! It's not nice having to be ready to get away from a 17hh 3 y/o it's been horrible, but slowly and firmly has done it and now she is an absolute pleasure to be around. I don't do anything unless I feel calm and relaxed, seems to work for us.

OP perhaps the horse does need a change of personality handling him? I guess you must be feeling a bit of apprehension as you never know what you are going to get , I bet he's picking that up from you too.


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## 0310Star (17 July 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			so all is good then JH, since your first post the horse has changed from nasty to absolutely fine and you don't actually need any advice from anyone at all?!, marvellous, we'll all just stfu then shall we and leave you to it


oh and Shils, you are a troll, but the forum pet one ,here to keep us entertained on dull days, keep up the good trolling

Click to expand...


  Agreed!!


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## Queenbee (17 July 2012)

Shilasdair said:



			I've just read this thread - and am impressed by how many experts there are out there.  

Most of them appear to own the sort of horse which an explosion of dynamite won't upset, and are frankly abysmal riders (if their photographs/signatures are anything to go by).

Doesn't stop them pontificating about things/people/horses they know nothing about.

If you don't know what you're talking about/have no constructive - and detailed  - suggestions like AengusOg then shut the duck up.

Jhoward - hope your hand is healing.  I'm also called a troll frequently.  Clearly I am THE most covert troll in history, with 20k posts and no infractions but there's always the odd intellectually challenged poster willing to sling a few 'troll' names about.
S 

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^^Troll, TROLL, TRRRRROOOOOLLL!!!^^^^ 


whoops, nope, just a deamon 

JH, hope you're feeling better hun x


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## Equilibrium Ireland (17 July 2012)

No point in posting if you didn't want an answer. You're the one that was seeking help. You've given your horse very mixed signals from the get go. Your fault. You nit pick at him with the whip and are unsure of any timing or feel. Quite a few horses really wouldn't care and just deal with it. This guy is not one of those. 

Like I said before, you want to be the best horseman you can be? Admit your mistakes and start thinking more about the horse than your ego. Ask for help. That's how people get good. Not telling everyone who didn't agree with them to sod off because they haven't been helpful. 

Terri


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## Devonshire dumpling (17 July 2012)

Shilasdair said:



			I've just read this thread - and am impressed by how many experts there are out there.  

Most of them appear to own the sort of horse which an explosion of dynamite won't upset, and are frankly abysmal riders (if their photographs/signatures are anything to go by).

Doesn't stop them pontificating about things/people/horses they know nothing about.

If you don't know what you're talking about/have no constructive - and detailed  - suggestions like AengusOg then shut the duck up.

Jhoward - hope your hand is healing.  I'm also called a troll frequently.  Clearly I am THE most covert troll in history, with 20k posts and no infractions but there's always the odd intellectually challenged poster willing to sling a few 'troll' names about.
S 

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I don't think the majority of people who commented were  saying their horses were bombproof, and to be honest taking cheap shots re people's signatures is rather childish, many many people have been around horses for 40+ years, doesn't mean they have been doing it right for 40+ years.
JH asked for opinions and she got opinions, so perhaps you should shut the duck up?

For some reason people creep up your bottom on here, have no idea why?  Do you?  I doubt you respect them for it either?

I would like to add that I have owned  horses on and off for 25 years, do I know a lot ?? Not really, I have recently taken on a wild youngster, he has taught me so much, I have spent hours just being with him, treating him with just kindness, I know when he is cornered he will jump 5 bar gates, so I treat him with respect, he is currently learning manners in the stable, if I acted suddenly or got after him, I would likely be killed, I frequently ask questions on here that would deem me VERY stupid, but I don't care I am learning and I take everyone's advice on board.  I will NEVER be an expert, it's not possible for one human being to see enough horses in a lifetime to be taught enough to be called an expert!


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## Equilibrium Ireland (17 July 2012)

Shils, don't know who you're talking to but I start horses for a living, galloped at the track in the states for years, and have been on over 3000 individual horses. And yet if I feel I may not be doing right for a horse I have no problems letting my husband take over or learning how to be better. I don't have an ego issue and make sure that it actually is all about the horse.

I have warmbloods and Thoroughbreds. I'm actually the person that is proud when I can let anybody handle or ride. That means I've done my job well. 

Terri


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## Shilasdair (17 July 2012)

Devonshire dumpling said:



			I don't think the majority of people who commented were  saying their horses were bombproof, and to be honest taking cheap shots re people's signatures is rather childish, many many people have been around horses for 40+ years, doesn't mean they have been doing it right for 40+ years.
JH asked for opinions and she got opinions, so perhaps you should shut the duck up?

For some reason people creep up your bottom on here, have no idea why?  Do you?  I doubt you respect them for it either?

I would like to add that I have owned  horses on and off for 25 years, do I know a lot ?? Not really, I have recently taken on a wild youngster, he has taught me so much, I have spent hours just being with him, treating him with just kindness, I know when he is cornered he will jump 5 bar gates, so I treat him with respect, he is currently learning manners in the stable, if I acted suddenly or got after him, I would likely be killed, I frequently ask questions on here that would deem me VERY stupid, but I don't care I am learning and I take everyone's advice on board.  I will NEVER be an expert, it's not possible for one human being to see enough horses in a lifetime to be taught enough to be called an expert!
		
Click to expand...


Sorry, I lost the will to read your post due to its excessive tedium.
If anyone would like to summarise the key points concisely, I'll give it another go?
S


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## Shilasdair (17 July 2012)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			Shils, don't know who you're talking to but I start horses for a living, galloped at the track in the states for years, and have been on over 3000 individual horses. And yet if I feel I may not be doing right for a horse I have no problems letting my husband take over or learning how to be better. I don't have an ego issue and make sure that it actually is all about the horse.

I have warmbloods and Thoroughbreds. I'm actually the person that is proud when I can let anybody handle or ride. That means I've done my job well. 

Terri
		
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I prostrate myself before your expertise.
S


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## Devonshire dumpling (17 July 2012)

Shilasdair said:



			Sorry, I lost the will to read your post due to its excessive tedium.
If anyone would like to summarise the key points concisely, I'll give it another go?
S 

Click to expand...

I will........ ,one word ok?

Arrogance!


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## hayinamanger (17 July 2012)

Gosh, Devonshire dumpling, you are so brave!


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## Equilibrium Ireland (17 July 2012)

And you should darling because I personally don't see how it's a funny matter but to each his own.

And we wonder why horses get messed up in the first place. Not hard to see here that's for sure. 

Terri


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## ter21wat (17 July 2012)

Shilasdair said:



			I've just read this thread - and am impressed by how many experts there are out there.  

Most of them appear to own the sort of horse which an explosion of dynamite won't upset, and are frankly abysmal riders (if their photographs/signatures are anything to go by).

Doesn't stop them pontificating about things/people/horses they know nothing about.

If you don't know what you're talking about/have no constructive - and detailed  - suggestions like AengusOg then shut the duck up.

Jhoward - hope your hand is healing.  I'm also called a troll frequently.  Clearly I am THE most covert troll in history, with 20k posts and no infractions but there's always the odd intellectually challenged poster willing to sling a few 'troll' names about.
S 

Click to expand...

1.  troll  
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

Seems to me the only person professing to be an expert here is you with your amazing ability to judge horses tempraments and peoples riding skills by simply looking at their little pics and signatures!


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## Devonshire dumpling (17 July 2012)

elderlycoupleindevon said:



			Gosh, Devonshire dumpling, you are so brave!
		
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Not a case of being brave, some people are so rude on here and seem to have a following, I just don't understand it.

I actually really like and respect JH, they have always been really kind to me, and given me loads of advice, but this time I think they have got it wrong.

JH  I  really hope you are feeling much better, my daughter has just broken her elbow and had an operation at Wonford, and has pins in her elbow, so know what you are going through, I hope they treated you as well as they did my daughter X


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## Shilasdair (17 July 2012)

Devonshire dumpling said:



			I will........ ,one word ok?

Arrogance!
		
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Aw, I wouldn't say you were arrogant.  Misguided perhaps, and longwinded for sure.  
S


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## Shilasdair (17 July 2012)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			And you should darling because I personally don't see how it's a funny matter but to each his own.

And we wonder why horses get messed up in the first place. Not hard to see here that's for sure. 

Terri
		
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'Darling' - oh, I feel so patronised (seriously you will have to try harder).

And I really don't think that my disagreeing with your self-proclaimed and pretty fantastic expertise on the interwebz is the reason that 'horses get messed up in the first place'.

Ok, petal?  
S


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## Shilasdair (17 July 2012)

Devonshire dumpling said:



			Not a case of being brave, some people are* so rude * on here and seem to have a following, I just don't understand it.

I actually really like and respect JH, they have always been really kind to me, and given me loads of advice, but this time I think they have got it wrong.

JH  I  really hope you are feeling much better, my daughter has just broken her elbow and had an operation at Wonford, and has pins in her elbow, so know what you are going through, I hope they treated you as well as they did my daughter X
		
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I so agree - these rude people who name call are terrible, aren't they.
Oh...wait...
S


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## hayinamanger (17 July 2012)

Now, now, let's all play nicely.


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## Shilasdair (17 July 2012)

ter21wat said:



			1.  troll  
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

Seems to me the only person professing to be an expert here is you with your amazing ability to judge horses tempraments and peoples riding skills by simply looking at their little pics and signatures!
		
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Hello newbie.
Thanks for proving my point so eloquently.
S


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## Shilasdair (17 July 2012)

elderlycoupleindevon said:



			Now, now, let's all play nicely.
		
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Have you ever had past life regression?
I'll bet you knitted beside the guillotine in the Revolution.
S


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## marlyclay (17 July 2012)

Well putting aside all the bitching and crap that seems to go on in this forum nowadays,I would like to return to something that was mentioned in the original post.
Horse was not particularly difficult until he injured himself and then the problems seemed to surface. This makes me think that his behavior may be due to pain that has not as yet been discovered. My friends horse once had a silly little accident where she trod on her reins ,pulling back sharply and breaking them. The next day she was stiff,the following day she refused to let her rider mount intacf shed her off!


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## marlyclay (17 July 2012)

Oh bl@@dy phone I hadn't finished my post......I shall continue.....
My friends horses behavior changed dramaticly since the reins were broken. It turned out she had broken her ribs in the incident of pulling back when she trod on the reins. Freak accident that was only found out after a trip to rossdales. She had become unrideable because the ribs were obviously causing great pain when saddled. Poor girl the only way she could tell us was to bronc!


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## Queenbee (17 July 2012)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			No point in posting if you didn't want an answer. You're the one that was seeking help. You've given your horse very mixed signals from the get go. Your fault. You nit pick at him with the whip and are unsure of any timing or feel. Quite a few horses really wouldn't care and just deal with it. This guy is not one of those. 

Like I said before, you want to be the best horseman you can be? Admit your mistakes and start thinking more about the horse than your ego. Ask for help. That's how people get good. Not telling everyone who didn't agree with them to sod off because they haven't been helpful. 

Terri
		
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I think that this thread illustrates that we can never stop learning.  Personally I do not think it is about the OP's ego at all.  I believe it illustrates that what may be a good approach for one horse, is not with another.  Some horses can not be told, and should not, others (my boy for example) needs a foot put down, but this has to be tempered with sensitivity and an eye for when it is appropriate.  I do not think that there is a horse man or woman in this world that hasn't tried one approach and another and another and have them flung in their face and felt for at least a while completely at a loss and had to go back to the drawing board and reassess. Furthermore, who hasn't become really frustrated and ranted over the attitude or behaviour of a tit of a horse, and then said the next day... its not as bad as all that?  There were days when I have questioned the suitability of horses for this world... the next day after a sleep, things often seem much better.  Far better to come on here and rant about what a deamon beast from hell your horse is than take a bad day  out on your horse.


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## Persephone (17 July 2012)

marlyclay said:



			Well putting aside all the bitching and crap that seems to go on in this forum nowadays,I would like to return to something that was mentioned in the original post.
Horse was not particularly difficult until he injured himself and then the problems seemed to surface. This makes me think that his behavior may be due to pain that has not as yet been discovered. My friends horse once had a silly little accident where she trod on her reins ,pulling back sharply and breaking them. The next day she was stiff,the following day she refused to let her rider mount intacf shed her off!
		
Click to expand...

Or it could  be in part that the the horse had to be in due to the injury, and the lack of turnout not being resolved due to the weather or whatever was the reason.


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## Shilasdair (17 July 2012)

marlyclay said:



			Oh bl@@dy phone I hadn't finished my post......I shall continue.....
My friends horses behavior changed dramaticly since the reins were broken. It turned out she had broken her ribs in the incident of pulling back when she trod on the reins. Freak accident that was only found out after a trip to rossdales. She had become unrideable because the ribs were obviously causing great pain when saddled. Poor girl the only way she could tell us was to bronc!
		
Click to expand...

Glad I'm not the only one whose phone is possessed - every second text I send is a correction of an autocorrect with 'ducking iphone'.  

My earlier posts were trying to point out that it's perfectly possible to give constructive advice (as you have done) without having to slate the OP (who is just recovering from an op, after all).  

I didn't look at anyone's riding pics or signatures so no call to be paranoid, but a little kindness wouldn't come amiss in your posts (after all, none of you have liked it when I've turned daemonic on you above).

Point made.    I'm off to stoke the fires in Hades ready for the next barefoot lot/lawyers/accountants/Olympic planners.  
S


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2012)

Shilasdair said:



			I've just read this thread - and am impressed by how many experts there are out there.  

Most of them appear to own the sort of horse which an explosion of dynamite won't upset, and are frankly abysmal riders (if their photographs/signatures are anything to go by).

Doesn't stop them pontificating about things/people/horses they know nothing about.

If you don't know what you're talking about/have no constructive - and detailed  - suggestions like AengusOg then shut the duck up.

Jhoward - hope your hand is healing.  I'm also called a troll frequently.  Clearly I am THE most covert troll in history, with 20k posts and no infractions but there's always the odd intellectually challenged poster willing to sling a few 'troll' names about.
S 

Click to expand...

Has nobody else spotted the hypocrisy in this post?!!

Also, JH has not had a heart transplant for goodness sakes, she's had an op on her finger, hardly something which requires people to walk on egg shells and not speak their mind is it?!!

I notice that you have not offered any constructive advice of your own as yet?


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## jhoward (17 July 2012)

Persephone said:



			Mine is exactly like that Footlights, apart from raising a hand, she would 't blink an eye! This filly is the most challenging I have had, and it has been a steep remembering curve 

I have been reared at, double barelled and plain knocked over and squashed against a wall! It's not nice having to be ready to get away from a 17hh 3 y/o it's been horrible, but slowly and firmly has done it and now she is an absolute pleasure to be around. I don't do anything unless I feel calm and relaxed, seems to work for us.

OP perhaps the horse does need a change of personality handling him? I guess you must be feeling a bit of apprehension as you never know what you are going to get , I bet he's picking that up from you too.
		
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the whip got lobbed at his butt to get him to move out of the way of the gate i needed to shut asap, it wasnt done in anger .. but as i said to get him to move forward out of the way



pip6 said:





jhoward said:



			once again i will point out that he is not a nasty horse]

But you say he is nasty even in the title of the thread?

Click to expand...

TURNING I SAID TURNING he is not nasty in the general sence of the word has been getting worse/more freqant hence TURNING and not is nasty.



Ibblebibble said:



			so all is good then JH, since your first post the horse has changed from nasty to absolutely fine and you don't actually need any advice from anyone at all?!, marvellous, we'll all just stfu then shall we and leave you to it


oh and Shils, you are a troll, but the forum pet one ,here to keep us entertained on dull days, keep up the good trolling

Click to expand...

please do seeing as your being about as much help as a chocolate teapot right now



marlyclay said:



			Well putting aside all the bitching and crap that seems to go on in this forum nowadays,I would like to return to something that was mentioned in the original post.
Horse was not particularly difficult until he injured himself and then the problems seemed to surface. This makes me think that his behavior may be due to pain that has not as yet been discovered. My friends horse once had a silly little accident where she trod on her reins ,pulling back sharply and breaking them. The next day she was stiff,the following day she refused to let her rider mount intacf shed her off!
		
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just to summerise with this point. 

i bought horse in june 2012. 2 days after owning him he booted someone when she went to get him in... she did not have my permission to do so
after she got herself up horse got a hiding... now before u all yell... i was not there, she knew he was difficult, and did not have my permission

up until december this year he lived out, with the odd day/night in if weather very bad etc. we then moved to a livery yard and due to there rules he was in .. with as much to as possible, but the paddock was pure mud and im not happy with a horse going out on frozen/wet mud, he got worked too as part of moving to yard was so i had help to get him broken and access to a school.

weather better, summer paddocks used horse back out.. then in april due to  a livery leaving all the fencing off, other horses got in with mine and he had a wound to the front leg.. 10 days on  box rest with a tiny bit of turnout .

ive recently moved him to a friends farm, as the livery yard to be honest was a shambles. its wet incase no one had noticed weve had the wettest june in history, i dont see the point in my horse standing for hours in wet mud eating hayledge, id rather he was in, and had a short spell out to have a roll and buck if he wants. 5 minutes work, meens hes been led out on the roads, or long reined.. anything to keep his brain thinking, i do not have a scool so my options are limited

now i wanted suggestions on why a horse would turn nasty, few people seem to have the intelligence to answer in such a way,, to thoose that have thank you... one of the reasons i wanted fresh ideas was i know the horse is tricky, and i know the sire was nasty, so wanted to nip it in the butt now.
		
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## pip6 (17 July 2012)

Better not mention I worked on Olympic road network for 9 months then


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## jhoward (17 July 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Has nobody else spotted the hypocrisy in this post?!!

Also, JH has not had a heart transplant for goodness sakes, she's had an op on her finger, hardly something which requires people to walk on egg shells and not speak their mind is it?!!

I notice that you have not offered any constructive advice of your own as yet?
		
Click to expand...

sorry to be pedantic here, but actully i could never have use of part of my hand again. not really just a finger op im affraid


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## jhoward (17 July 2012)

pip6 said:



			Better not mention I worked on Olympic road network for 9 months then

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lofl theres always one


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## Shilasdair (17 July 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Has nobody else spotted the hypocrisy in this post?!!

Also, JH has not had a heart transplant for goodness sakes, she's had an op on her finger, hardly something which requires people to walk on egg shells and not speak their mind is it?!!

I notice that you have not offered any constructive advice of your own as yet?
		
Click to expand...

Oh do read the posts before you comment.  Sigh.  Do I have to explain _everything_ to you?
Somehow I'm not surprised that you are giving a medical opinion - your expertise does indeed cover many fields (both literally and metaphorically).
And regarding constructive advice - I use all sorts of media - you'd be amazed!
S 

ETA There's nothing more pathetic than posters who I have criticised in the past looking for any random moment to disagree with me on unrelated threads.


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2012)

jhoward said:



			sorry to be pedantic here, but actully i could never have use of part of my hand again. not really just a finger op im affraid
		
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I'm sorry to hear that JH.

I still don't think it's any reason for people to pussyfoot around and not speak their mind.  

I am confused why you aren't willing to take on board what people are saying - nobody has said anything personally nasty about you.  People are commenting on what the reasons could be behind his behaviour, and the majority seem to get the impression it is something with the way in which you have handled him.  Sorry if that doesn't sit well with you.

I do hope you don't get injured any further, and take things easy!


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2012)

Shilasdair said:



			Oh do read the posts before you comment.  Sigh.  Do I have to explain _everything_ to you?
Somehow I'm not surprised that you are giving a medical opinion - your expertise does indeed cover many fields (both literally and metaphorically).
And regarding constructive advice - I use all sorts of media - you'd be amazed!
S 

ETA There's nothing more pathetic than posters who I have criticised in the past looking for any random moment to disagree with me on unrelated threads.  

Click to expand...

Ha ha!!!  You hardly have to be a doctor do differentiate between a heart transplant and an op on a bloody finger!!  I bust my toe badly the other week after an altercation with a coffee table but I didn't expect people to be nice to me just because of it! 

I am very sorry I am member of this forum with the freedom of speech that equals yours and everyone elses' Shils, it must really grate on you.


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## Shilasdair (17 July 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Ha ha!!!  You hardly have to be a doctor do differentiate between a heart transplant and an op on a bloody finger!!  I bust my toe badly the other week after an altercation with a coffee table but I didn't expect people to be nice to me just because of it! 

I am very sorry I am member of this forum with the freedom of speech that equals yours and everyone elses' Shils, it must really grate on you.
		
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On the contrary, Moo, your posts make me feel good about myself.
Keep them up.
S


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## jhoward (17 July 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			I'm sorry to hear that JH.

I still don't think it's any reason for people to pussyfoot around and not speak their mind.  

I am confused why you aren't willing to take on board what people are saying - nobody has said anything personally nasty about you.  People are commenting on what the reasons could be behind his behaviour, and the majority seem to get the impression it is something with the way in which you have handled him.  Sorry if that doesn't sit well with you.

I do hope you don't get injured any further, and take things easy!
		
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can u please point out where exactley i have rebuffed any ones advice? 

unfortunatly ive had to spend my time correcting people that cant be bothered to read, and have to keep explaning. horses age, is isnt stuck in a stable etc.

.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (17 July 2012)

Queenbee said:



			I think that this thread illustrates that we can never stop learning.  Personally I do not think it is about the OP's ego at all.  I believe it illustrates that what may be a good approach for one horse, is not with another.  Some horses can not be told, and should not, others (my boy for example) needs a foot put down, but this has to be tempered with sensitivity and an eye for when it is appropriate.  I do not think that there is a horse man or woman in this world that hasn't tried one approach and another and another and have them flung in their face and felt for at least a while completely at a loss and had to go back to the drawing board and reassess. Furthermore, who hasn't become really frustrated and ranted over the attitude or behaviour of a tit of a horse, and then said the next day... its not as bad as all that?  There were days when I have questioned the suitability of horses for this world... the next day after a sleep, things often seem much better.  Far better to come on here and rant about what a deamon beast from hell your horse is than take a bad day  out on your horse.
		
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Been there, done that too! Wonderful post


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## Spudlet (17 July 2012)

Ok, so that's epic. Now, at the risk of getting flamed - I don't see how anyone could help without actually seeing the horse themselves. It sounds like things have been escalating for a while, with things getting more and more confrontational, until unfortunately eventually someone got hurt - I really hope your hand recovers ok and you get as much functionality back as possible.

I think, FWIW, turning him away is a very good idea, as it will allow both of you time to take a deep breath rather than being locked into this pattern of confrontation. I would suggest that you research trainers and get someone in to help when you bring him back into work - not becuse you're not up to the job or whatever, but because a second pair of eyes and fresh perspective might really help. It can be easy to get a bit of tunnel vision when dealing with longterm problems - a new person might have a different take on things and also won't be emotionally involved, which can be a hindrance with your own animals. Doesn't have to be one of the celeb trainers, but someone who knows their stuff and can help you both. 

I hope your hand gets better as I said but you never know - this enforced break might turn out for the best in a strange way.

* waits to have all inadequacies pointed out to her as payback for venturing an opinion*


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2012)

Shilasdair said:



			On the contrary, Moo, your posts make me feel good about myself.
Keep them up.
S 

Click to expand...

I'm glad I brighten your days!


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## Armas (17 July 2012)

Queenbee said:



			I think that this thread illustrates that we can never stop learning.  Personally I do not think it is about the OP's ego at all.  I believe it illustrates that what may be a good approach for one horse, is not with another.  Some horses can not be told, and should not, others (my boy for example) needs a foot put down, but this has to be tempered with sensitivity and an eye for when it is appropriate.  I do not think that there is a horse man or woman in this world that hasn't tried one approach and another and another and have them flung in their face and felt for at least a while completely at a loss and had to go back to the drawing board and reassess. Furthermore, who hasn't become really frustrated and ranted over the attitude or behaviour of a tit of a horse, and then said the next day... its not as bad as all that?  There were days when I have questioned the suitability of horses for this world... the next day after a sleep, things often seem much better.  Far better to come on here and rant about what a deamon beast from hell your horse is than take a bad day  out on your horse.
		
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As above. ...
Now WTF people the OP has not just stubbed her pigging toe she has seriously damaged her hand and now has to have surgery and a possible pin insert give her a break. The OP has been rather busy trying to fix her hand and thus has not been able to respond sooner.
OP seems to have taken on board the posts and has only commented to correct errors where people have not read the OP !
My best wishes JH I hope your hand heals soon and you manage to get to the bottom of the issues with your horse.


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## jhoward (17 July 2012)

lol, s.. i do agree the lady i had out is a well repected nh lady, it just didnt go well. and imo upset the horse. 
i got her out after seeing her work with others and ive been aware that i had one shot at getting this horse broken.

luckily, horse does love his work and just before leaving the livery yard he was being sat on.. without a hitch... phew.

any way enforced break.. my vets no certin types of livery so will talk to them, as i cant drive/etc for feck nos how long.

a couple of people on hho have met the horse and im sure they are of the opinion he really is not a generally nasty horse.


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## cbmcts (17 July 2012)

I think, if he was mine I'd chuck him out in a nice stable herd until spring (hopefully the ground will dry up soon) - he's had a lot of changes, traumas and moves in the past little while which might explain his narkiness, some horses just don't cope well with moves, let alone the box rest and injuries...

The one thing I will say is, if at all possible don't let anyone handle him. He reminds me a lot of a friends horse who's natural reaction to a wallop, shout (anything he sees as an 'unfair' correction) is met with a full on fight. He's the type of horse that will follow you through fire if asked nicely and after being a really horrible youngster has turned into a very nice, useful horse who is easy to do unless you're the vet 

Hope your hand recovers soon...


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## PolarSkye (17 July 2012)

Devonshire dumpling said:



			I will........ ,one word ok?

Arrogance!
		
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This made me do this . . .  . . . and then made me do this . . . 

P


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## Shilasdair (17 July 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			This made me do this . . .  . . . and then made me do this . . . 

P
		
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Soooooo funny !!!    I lol'd and lol'd !!!
S


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## SusieT (17 July 2012)

So why can't you turn him out? Move somewehre with turnout. I have had as much rain as anywhere else, my fields are a bit wet, my horses are out and there is plenty of grass, so much so they're being strip grazed and we have clay, wet, deep marshy soil but it's not overstocked. Why can you not do this?


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2012)

SusieT said:



			So why can't you turn him out? Move somewehre with turnout. I have had as much rain as anywhere else, my fields are a bit wet, my horses are out and there is plenty of grass, so much so they're being strip grazed and we have clay, wet, deep marshy soil but it's not overstocked. Why can you not do this?
		
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Susie T, if you can't offer any constructive advice then don't bother commenting - it will upset Shils!!


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## Shilasdair (17 July 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Susie T, if you can't offer any constructive advice then don't bother commenting - it will upset Shils!! 

Click to expand...

I think it was intended to be constructive, even if it was clearly a question with an incredibly obvious answer (d'uh).
S


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## Devonshire dumpling (17 July 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			This made me do this . . .  . . . and then made me do this . . . 

P
		
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Someone similar happened to me a while back.......

I was calmly walking around Tesco minding my own business when a woman bashed her trolley into mine, I automatically said sorry, as I was brought up well, anyway she tutted!!  I saw red!  I said well actually I retract that, I am not sorry, you are rude and need to learn some manners!  Was all rather heated for a while , but I felt better for it    I am one of those nice friendly people until someone crosses me, sometimes NOT having the last word makes you come out on top tho .. read into that what you will.


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## tabithakat64 (17 July 2012)

The OP asked for help and advice and I think a lot of the responses have been really nasty.

I'm not an expert by any means and can only offer advice based my on my own experiences but here's my two cents worth.

I have a so called agressive horse that was labelled dangerous by many experts and had ended up in multiple homes and went through several sales rings in a very short space of time.

His insecurity made him act aggressively as did the abuse he suffered as a foal, maybe your youngster is struggling to cope with the changes in how he is managed and the changes in yard etc and will eventually settle with consistent handling and rountine?

More turnout that allows him to socialise with other horses might also help as might stable toys etc as he would be being stimulated for longer periods of time than he currently is.

Periods of box rest and remembered pain could also account for his current behaviour, in my experience this can have a huge impact on a horses behaviour after it has fully recovered from the injury/illness and is no longer on box rest.

He could have a niggling issue that is causing him pain and it would probably be worth your while doing/redoing all the usual checks even if all it does is confirm there is no underlying physical cause that is causing his behaviour. 

It's probably worth you getting someone with more experience with 'problem' horses help you work on re-establishing the boundaries of what is exceptable behaviour and what isn't.  

Not all horses respond to the same methods in the same way and a new pair of eyes assessing your current situation will hopefully help you resolve everything and prevent both you and others getting injured by your horse in the future.

I hope you have a speedy recovery and are able to resolve your horses issues


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## Armas (17 July 2012)

SusieT said:



			So why can't you turn him out? Move somewehre with turnout. I have had as much rain as anywhere else, my fields are a bit wet, my horses are out and there is plenty of grass, so much so they're being strip grazed and we have clay, wet, deep marshy soil but it's not overstocked. Why can you not do this?
		
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 Its so easy to sit behind a computer and say oh well move yard. Some times thats much easier said than done.
Tbh I found your post rather rude.


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## ter21wat (17 July 2012)

jhoward said:



			can u please point out where exactley i have rebuffed any ones advice? 

unfortunatly ive had to spend my time correcting people that cant be bothered to read, and have to keep explaning. horses age, is isnt stuck in a stable etc.

.
		
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To be fair you were the one who said he was stuck in the stable 23hrs a day and 5 mins exercise without properly explaining your turnout situation. If you arent going to explain something properly, when it may have a baring on the advice you are looking to receive, then you cant get upset when people pick up the wrong end of the stick and you have to correct them. Posters only have the information you are providing in your post to enable them to assess the situation and offer you advice based on their own personal experience


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## rhino (17 July 2012)

ter21wat said:



			To be fair you were the one who said he was stuck in the stable 23hrs a day and 5 mins exercise without properly explaining your turnout situation. If you arent going to explain something properly, when it may have a baring on the advice you are looking to receive, then you cant get upset when people pick up the wrong end of the stick and you have to correct them. Posters only have the information you are providing in your post to enable them to assess the situation and offer you advice based on their own personal experience 

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And they could always ask for more information to prevent them from making all sorts of silly assumptions


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## ter21wat (17 July 2012)

rhino said:



			And they could always ask for more information to prevent them from making all sorts of silly assumptions 

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When someone suggested he needed a to go out and have a rest the OP stated "he gets to go out, but weather wise it may be for only an hour, but hes doing something in hand monst days even if its 5 mins up the road and back." So not really making any 'silly assumptions'....just going on the imformation and responses made by the OP....


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## Donnie Darco (17 July 2012)

Dear God 

How can this thread still be going?? I wanted to comment this morning, but didn't want to ressurect it from the last post 10pm last night, I was hoping it would just fade away 

I have NEVER seen such BITCHINESS on HHO before (maybe I haven't looked hard enough? )

BUT COME ON WHAT IT WRONG WITH YOU ALL THAT FEEL ITS OK TO POST A BITCHING REPLY having obviously not read JH's post from the beginning  but just copy everyone else ??? 

I don't know JH from adam, and cannot advise on the horse's behaviour (SO I DIDN'T ) but I'm commenting NOW because frankly I'm disgusted with most of you  jumping on an Chinese whispers band wagon 

We all do stupid things/things we regret. We all make mistakes. (Lord I've made plenty ) Accidents happen - imagine if if JS had not posted this thread but then posted a thread about her youngster mashing her hand at a show, the responses from you would have been much different I'm sure 

Sorry JH am sure you are plenty good enough to fight you're own battles, I'm just outraged on your behalf 

I feel better now, Tuesday night rant and all that, hope the hand improves JH

DD


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## Donnie Darco (17 July 2012)

Ps - can we get this thread locked? It offers nothing to anyone which IMO is not the point of this forum 

A v pissed off DD


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2012)

Donnie Darco said:



			Ps - can we get this thread locked? It offers nothing to anyone which IMO is not the point of this forum 

A v pissed off DD
		
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OMG chill out and take a blood pressure pill!  If you don't like people responding their opinions when asked by OP then don't read it!

What an over reaction considering you don't know JH!


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## Shilasdair (17 July 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			OMG chill out and take a blood pressure pill!  If you don't like people responding their opinions when asked by OP then don't read it!

What an over reaction considering you don't know JH!
		
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Is it acceptable to over-react if I do know JH?  Just thought I'd find out...
S


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2012)

Shilasdair said:



			Is it acceptable to over-react if I do know JH?  Just thought I'd find out...
S 

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I don't know, ask yourself, you seem to make up the forum rules!!


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## Shilasdair (17 July 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			I don't know, ask yourself, you seem to make up the forum rules!! 

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Don't be ridiculous: if I made the forum rules, we'd all post naked.
S


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2012)

Shilasdair said:



			Don't be ridiculous: if I made the forum rules, we'd all post naked.
S 

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How do you know everyone isn't?!


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## Donnie Darco (17 July 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			OMG chill out and take a blood pressure pill!  If you don't like people responding their opinions when asked by OP then don't read it!

What an over reaction considering you don't know JH!
		
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Like I said, if JH had posted this just as thread about her horse mashing her hand at a show the response would have been quite different 

I have nothing against people expressing an opinion IF/WHEN what they can add is constructive NOT just riding on the backs of others.


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2012)

Donnie Darco said:



			Like I said, if JH had posted this just as thread about her horse mashing her hand at a show the response would have been quite different 

I have nothing against people expressing an opinion IF/WHEN what they can add is constructive NOT just riding on the backs of others.
		
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Well for a start, I don't ride on the backs of others.  I have my own opinions, thoughts, and quite freely come out with them (much to the annoyance of many other posters at times!).

JH DIDN'T just post about her hand though did she?  She posted asking why her horse may be turning nasty...

She got answers.


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## Shilasdair (17 July 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			How do you know everyone isn't?!

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True.  I switched your web cam off.
S


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2012)

Shilasdair said:



			True.  I switched your web cam off.
S 

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Thank god for that I forgot to pick up some Veet from Sainsburys...


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## Shilasdair (17 July 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Thank god for that I forgot to pick up some Veet from Sainsburys...
		
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I don't like to give personal grooming tips- but you need a machete more than you need Veet.
S


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2012)

Shilasdair said:



			I don't like to give personal grooming tips- but you need a machete more than you need Veet.
S 

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Do you think?!  I quite like the 'natural' look!


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## Bigbenji (17 July 2012)

Shils and Moomin- I'm sensing a HHO romance for you two 

It's soooo sweet!


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## jhoward (17 July 2012)

the thread doesnt need to be locked, im an adult i can deal with the insults.

and for EVERYONES info im posting semi naked as i cant currently dress myself

oh and i have hairy legs too


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## rhino (17 July 2012)

jhoward said:



			the thread doesnt need to be locked, im an adult i can deal with the insults.

and for EVERYONES info im posting semi naked as i cant currently dress myself

oh and i have hairy legs too

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Ooh your lice will be happy then


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## Donnie Darco (17 July 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Thank god for that I forgot to pick up some Veet from Sainsburys...
		
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Eugh

My argument is not at you Moomin, it's people reading/mis reading a thread/post and then thinking they are the world encyclopaedia (their two pence worth not any actual experience ) on that particular subject. Plenty of the posts repeat themselves time and again, and it's obvious they are just jumping on the bandwagon.  Yes JS asked for answers, and there are some suggestions, but for the vast majority of replies it's the same old s*** with nothing constructive to say (rather the opposite )

I've followed this thread (lurking as is the norm) from the beginning, think JH started this Saturday/Sunday? 

I'll say again, I haven't commented before now AS I DON'T FEEL I CAN OFFER ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE. Other people feel its their God given right to voice their opinion, valid or not. THAT is my arguement.


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## Donnie Darco (17 July 2012)

jhoward said:



			the thread doesnt need to be locked, im an adult i can deal with the insults.

and for EVERYONES info im posting semi naked as i cant currently dress myself

oh and i have hairy legs too

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Thank God  You're back


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## jhoward (17 July 2012)

kind of ...between painkiller comas.


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## Echo Bravo (17 July 2012)

To get back to the ops question about her horse. Yes to me it's pain/frustration related and being mishandled both by you and vets, cann't tell a horse sorry love I know it's going to hurt but it's for your own good, they don't think that way,you have caused him alot of pain so he no longer trust you. Taking him to a show, well you got what you asked for.
Take him right back to basics and again his trust, if this doesn't work or he gets worse do the kindess thing by him and pts.


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## jhoward (17 July 2012)

Echo Bravo said:



			To get back to the ops question about her horse. Yes to me it's pain/frustration related and being mishandled both by you and vets, cann't tell a horse sorry love I know it's going to hurt but it's for your own good, they don't think that way,you have caused him alot of pain so he no longer trust you. Taking him to a show, well you got what you asked for.
Take him right back to basics and again his trust, if this doesn't work or he gets worse do the kindess thing by him and pts.
		
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wth?? pts? he has never been mis handled by a vet where exactley did you get that from.

the horse spooked, its a bloody horse they all do it. do u know what i actually cba to dignify u with a further responce.


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## Luci07 (17 July 2012)

I read the entire thread with great interest. Talk about conflicting advice!! And some ...rather firm opinions! I do believe that some less than pleasant traits can be passed down to offspring, I have also seen how a youngster can start to test you and have a real attack of the Kevin's! If in doubt I think the suggestions of taking a couple of steps back might well be helpful. Vet check to ensure no physical reasons, feed right down to the basics, more turn out and then start building back up. I have known a friend who is a very good horsewoman...she bought a 3 year old, beautifully put together and lovely..till she came to back him. Soon became obvious someone had tried, failed and completely cocked it up.  result,  dangerous horse.

Could you also post what you do do and what are the results?


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## Achinghips (17 July 2012)

What's thehumpedgooseproboards on some of your signatures please? I've clicked on it but it has no information about what it is, other than a separate forum with no information about its aims, but it says to use your H&H usename


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## asommerville (17 July 2012)

Could someone have trird to back him before?


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## rhino (17 July 2012)

Achinghips said:



			What's thehumpedgooseproboards on some of your signatures please? I've clicked on it but it has no information about what it is, other than a separate forum with no information about its aims
		
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Remember the 'bar is open' threads in soapbox? It's basically that, but hosted on another forum. TFC felt that at times (!) it was inappropriate for a family forum  so the HG was set up. No aims really, just a general chat thread for those of us who liked the bar threads.


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## Littlelegs (17 July 2012)

Is it likely at some point in the past while he was being mistreated he's truly figured out he's actually stronger than any human? I don't mean in a trying it on, pushing people round & being a bit dominant way as some do. Normally as humans we trick most horses into believing we are stronger, but the rare one does realise that no matter what any person does it has the upper hand.Which would fit in with the fact his attacks on you are getting worse, possibly same thing happened with previous groom, if I am right from his pov you should have stepped into line earlier, he's upping his game because you didn't accept it at first. I'm not sure even if that is it exactly how to solve it but just an idea as to why.


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## JFTDWS (17 July 2012)

This thread is a bit like tripping on some sort of hallucinogenic drug (or what I imagine it would be like ) - so many misunderstandings and half-logics flying around.  FWIW, I agree with whoever said this was a case for someone who can see the horse in person - and certainly I don't consider it within my remit to offer advice given the high stakes involved when a horse behaves seemingly so dangerously.  

JH, I hope your hand heals ok x


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## thehorsephotographer (18 July 2012)

Personally I wouldn't turn him out till spring or whatever some have advised.  I'd be wanting to work with him, just for a short time everyday and keeping it short enough to keep it where possible all positive.

I don't think he's turning nasty but do think that there's something underlying going on - whether it's pain related or something that's happened to him in the past really at this stage is anyone's guess since the vet hasn't found anything and I don't think you have enough information about his past to make an informed judgement.  How did the groom who was frightened of him handle him for example?  You could be picking up the pieces of some fear that this person has instilled in him.

What I think would be your best course of action would be to work at building his trust and confidence in you day by day.  This may take a long, long time but the end results would be more than worth it.  If/when you got there in the end I think he would be the most loyal and trustworthy of horses.

Horses are fight or flight animals, if he's boxed in he can't flight so his instincts are telling him in his panic to fight.  It's up to you to create an environment for him where he doesn't feel the need to do either but feels safe in the knowledge that you are not going to let anything bad happen to him.

I'm still not clear about his turnout situation but if it's limited to an hour a day along with 5 - 10 minutes walk out I'd try to increase the turnout length of time if at all possible and preferable with other horses if he isn't already with others.

Other things I'd look at are his diet.  I know what you said about his hard feed but could he possibly be missing or lacking in any essential vitamins and minerals?

If he were mine I'd be working with him daily to build his confidence in me and taking a "gently, gently" approach trying to avoid as much confrontation as possible whilst at the same time setting boundaries which he must not cross such as your space/his space.

I'm sorry to hear about your hand and hope it heals fully quickly.


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## Dolcé (18 July 2012)

Shilasdair said:



			I've just read this thread - and am impressed by how many experts there are out there.  

Most of them appear to own the sort of horse which an explosion of dynamite won't upset, and are frankly abysmal riders (if their photographs/signatures are anything to go by).

Doesn't stop them pontificating about things/people/horses they know nothing about.

If you don't know what you're talking about/have no constructive - and detailed  - suggestions like AengusOg then shut the duck up.

Jhoward - hope your hand is healing.  I'm also called a troll frequently.  Clearly I am THE most covert troll in history, with 20k posts and no infractions but there's always the odd intellectually challenged poster willing to sling a few 'troll' names about.
S 

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LOL, I love you Shils, you always hit the nail on the head.  It would be lovely to be a perfect horseperson wouldn't it!


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## rhino (18 July 2012)

thehorsephotographer said:



			Personally I wouldn't turn him out till spring or whatever some have advised.  I'd be wanting to work with him, just for a short time everyday and keeping it short enough to keep it where possible all positive.
		
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She really can't; she's going to be in plaster and off work for a minimum of 6 - 8 weeks, it's not a simple break and although it sounds like surgery went well (well apart from spending the day throwing up) it is not something that can be fixed quickly. 

For obvious reasons JH is not terribly keen to risk someone else taking over his education at the present time, but it sounds like she can arrange grass livery with some help at hand. Fingers crossed some chillout time does the boy some good  She really does think the world of him, madwoman that she is


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## popeyesno1fan (18 July 2012)

thehorsephotographer said:



			Personally I wouldn't turn him out till spring or whatever some have advised.  I'd be wanting to work with him, just for a short time everyday and keeping it short enough to keep it where possible all positive.

I don't think he's turning nasty but do think that there's something underlying going on - whether it's pain related or something that's happened to him in the past really at this stage is anyone's guess since the vet hasn't found anything and I don't think you have enough information about his past to make an informed judgement.  How did the groom who was frightened of him handle him for example?  You could be picking up the pieces of some fear that this person has instilled in him.

What I think would be your best course of action would be to work at building his trust and confidence in you day by day.  This may take a long, long time but the end results would be more than worth it.  If/when you got there in the end I think he would be the most loyal and trustworthy of horses.

Horses are fight or flight animals, if he's boxed in he can't flight so his instincts are telling him in his panic to fight.  It's up to you to create an environment for him where he doesn't feel the need to do either but feels safe in the knowledge that you are not going to let anything bad happen to him.

I'm still not clear about his turnout situation but if it's limited to an hour a day along with 5 - 10 minutes walk out I'd try to increase the turnout length of time if at all possible and preferable with other horses if he isn't already with others.

Other things I'd look at are his diet.  I know what you said about his hard feed but could he possibly be missing or lacking in any essential vitamins and minerals?

If he were mine I'd be working with him daily to build his confidence in me and taking a "gently, gently" approach trying to avoid as much confrontation as possible whilst at the same time setting boundaries which he must not cross such as your space/his space.

I'm sorry to hear about your hand and hope it heals fully quickly.
		
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Totally agree, been there with a young colt a few years ago. I had to sell him on, as I just wasnt getting anywhere with him. but would totally agree with the above. Once you have the expertise, as i think you have, daily contact will eventually work. (And i sold him to a person that i knew, and he was told exactly what he was like, he actually turned him into a smashing little cob).


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## WoopsiiD (18 July 2012)

I'll get the troll call now-some animals are just mean.
We had one on a yard I as at. He would go out on his back legs and come in on his back legs.
He would rush to the front of the stable with teeth barred.
He happily took chunks from everyone.
His owner said he was quirky, the rest of us knew the truth. Thank goodness he was a Jaffa so his bad seeds were never passed on.
Its no ones fault, its just life.


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## thehorsephotographer (18 July 2012)

WoopsiiD said:



			I'll get the troll call now-some animals are just mean.
We had one on a yard I as at. He would go out on his back legs and come in on his back legs.
He would rush to the front of the stable with teeth barred.
He happily took chunks from everyone.
His owner said he was quirky, the rest of us knew the truth. Thank goodness he was a Jaffa so his bad seeds were never passed on.
Its no ones fault, its just life.
		
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We'll have to agree to differ on this one I'm afraid but I do respect your opinion however my opinion is that horses are born as a blank canvas but how they turn out in the end depends very much on what happens to them along the way.




			Quote:
Originally Posted by thehorsephotographer View Post
Personally I wouldn't turn him out till spring or whatever some have advised. I'd be wanting to work with him, just for a short time everyday and keeping it short enough to keep it where possible all positive.
She really can't; she's going to be in plaster and off work for a minimum of 6 - 8 weeks, it's not a simple break and although it sounds like surgery went well (well apart from spending the day throwing up) it is not something that can be fixed quickly.

For obvious reasons JH is not terribly keen to risk someone else taking over his education at the present time, but it sounds like she can arrange grass livery with some help at hand. Fingers crossed some chillout time does the boy some good She really does think the world of him, madwoman that she is
		
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In this case then I'd opt for the turnout but make sure I spent some quality time with him everyday just building a relationship - whether it's to give him some feed with supplements or just for the pleasure of talking to him.

A year ago my daughter took on a pony who behaved very similar to this horse when no-one else would give her a chance but had labelled her as a "bad one".  We were her 5th home in under 2 years and took her on primarily to be a companion for another young horse she had bought.  The day we collected her the person who then owned her tied her up in the trailer and literally ran out sideways with hindsight trying to avoid being kicked.

It took 6 - 8 months before we could actually see any real progress but now a year later she's rapidly turning into the sweetest little thing.  It has been one step forward three steps backwards for much of the time but through treating her with kindness and respect whilst still teaching her what is and isn't acceptable with her manners we are getting somewhere.  She's a 3 year old.  There have been times with her when I've thought we would never make anything out of her but the one thought that kept us going and still going is what kind of a life would she have with anyone else if she can't be trusted and we can't make anything of her?  

Reading all you have said JH I think you have already achieved more with this horse than anyone before you and for that you should be applauded.  Personally I wouldn't give up on him.  I think a lot of what you have said indicates that the two of you together have potential.  Not least of all your belief in him.


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## Moomin1 (18 July 2012)

WoopsiiD said:



			I'll get the troll call now-some animals are just mean.
We had one on a yard I as at. He would go out on his back legs and come in on his back legs.
He would rush to the front of the stable with teeth barred.
He happily took chunks from everyone.
His owner said he was quirky, the rest of us knew the truth. Thank goodness he was a Jaffa so his bad seeds were never passed on.
Its no ones fault, its just life.
		
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No, you clearly aren't a troll!!  You are just mis-informed.  No animal is 'just mean'.  I deal with every animal you can think of daily.  Foxes, badgers, slow worms, mice, rats, horses, cats, dogs, cows, pigs, snakes, spiders etc etc etc.  I have been bitten more times than I can think by snakes, hamsters, dogs, cats (and feral cats), squirrels and god knows what else.  I have never yet come across an animal that for no reason (and this includes health reasons too) is 'just mean'.  There are all sorts of pre-cursors and environmental issues that cause different temperaments/personalities etc etc but people humanize animals so much that I have even heard people scream at cats who have been placed in carriers to 'shut up you are scaring the other cat'!!


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## rhino (18 July 2012)

thehorsephotographer said:



			In this case then I'd opt for the turnout but make sure I spent some quality time with him everyday just building a relationship - whether it's to give him some feed with supplements or just for the pleasure of talking to him.
		
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I'm sure she will. Just as soon as she works out how to do her bra up and dress herself one handed, as apparently she is finding it rather difficult at the moment


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## Sarajane (18 July 2012)

rhino said:



			I'm sure she will. Just as soon as she works out how to do her bra up and dress herself one handed, as apparently she is finding it rather difficult at the moment  

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Now I might be controversial here, but I'm going to give advice without seeing the bra, where it is kept or how it is handled. I would strongly recommend the following method:
Dont put arms through the straps, put bra around ribcage with fastenings to the front and keep it in position by holding it in place with the non functioning arm
do the fastening up, twist round so fastenings are at the back
slip arms through straps
be sure to offer praise before covering bra with suitable clothing


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## Armas (18 July 2012)

Sarajane said:



			Now I might be controversial here, but I'm going to give advice without seeing the bra, where it is kept or how it is handled. I would strongly recommend the following method:
Dont put arms through the straps, put bra around ribcage with fastenings to the front and keep it in position by holding it in place with the non functioning arm
do the fastening up, twist round so fastenings are at the back
slip arms through straps
be sure to offer praise before covering bra with suitable clothing

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I feel I have a much better solution find a hot guy to help dress and undress you


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## Flummoxed (18 July 2012)

Armas said:



			I feel I have a much better solution find a hot guy to help dress and undress you 

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From what I've seen on HHO, she's been trying to find a hot guy for some while!   


Hope the hand is better soon JH and that you manage to resolve the horse's issues.


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## Spudlet (18 July 2012)

rhino said:



			I'm sure she will. Just as soon as she works out how to do her bra up and dress herself one handed, as apparently she is finding it rather difficult at the moment  

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Have a sixties hippy moment and let things hang free and easy!


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## jhoward (18 July 2012)

general reply to all i hope i cover the questions

yes, theres a high chance somebody tried to break him in, i was told hed been lent across .. 

his reaction with other people is to walk over them, he was like it with me at first, but knowing he had issues with being led this was the first thing worked on, i always used a dually and lunge rein, when u got him into a field he was ready for a bit/bridle to be ripped off him and woyld go ape, we got over this by unclipping him him, once he settled down id go and remove the headcollar, a few weeks later that issue was over.

one thing i learnt early on was u cant jab him.. his first reaction is to go up, the lady that came out to work with him, her comments were this is a horse that knows how to rear.

tbh its rare these days he goes up, a small bunny hop but he knows its not accectable.

we have long reind, learnt to jump, hes been led off other horses and goes out in hand/on the long reins. backing wise its all been done slowly.. 
i really debated about who would get on him due to his trust issues, but in the end the actual sitting on happened in the stable, horse was perfect so imo i got that part right. 
we were about to do the sitting on outside when somebody appeared to use the school and i said no, as i wanted his total attention on us.. he then injured himself ..

ive spent a year with him, getting him used to things like the hose.. it was another big no no, but he can now be washed. 

i agree with the person who said about working him, he is a much more chilled horse when hes doing something, even if its 5 mins up the road, he loves going out.. hes very bold ears forward and loves it. for a baby hes perfect with traffic etc... but then i put the work in so he should be.

as rhino said, i  buggered possibly for months .. i couldnt even put a headcollar on currently so my options are some what limited.


thanks for advice re bra... sports bra all the way


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## Spudlet (18 July 2012)

deleted


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## thehorsephotographer (18 July 2012)

Sounds like you've achieved a massive amount with him during the time you've been working with him.

As mentioned previously even if you can't actually do anything with him due to your injury I'd still be spending quality time with him each day maintaining the relationship you have already built.

Is there anyone else who you would trust who can help you handle him at the moment under your supervision who you think he would also trust?  These 5 minutes down the road (which actually translate to a lot more than 5 minutes being spent with him don't they?) could be a lifeline to him at the moment and the difference between a stroppy bored horse and one with something to look forward to.

It will be interesting to see if he treats you any differently now you are injured.


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## jhoward (18 July 2012)

yes hes being looked after by a friend.. hes kept on her farm, tbh  ihave no worries about leading him out. and yes it is more time spent with him, bring in.. well ok cheat there i call him he comes i open gates he puts himself in, good groom, feet etc bridle on, off we go. weve done this even in the rain whilst hes been stuck in, things like road spray etc dont bother him.

not much else i can do tbh and friend doesnt have the time to be consistant. 

i feel its a bit of all or nothing....

he will be intrigued by the odd thing on my arm... barring that and the strops he is normally a very soft loving horse.


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## AengusOg (18 July 2012)

I'm trying to be objective here...



jhoward said:



			well ok cheat there i call him he comes i open gates he puts himself in.
		
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That may be contributing to his behaviour. I understand that your injury will mean that letting him run in loose will have to be the norm, for a while at least, but inconsistencies in routine can cause young horses to challenge their handler. 




jhoward said:



			he will be intrigued by the odd thing on my arm....
		
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You seem to have already made up your mind about that. He may be intrigued; he may be wary or even afraid of it; he may try to bite it; he may want to lick it; he may understand that you are hurt and vulnerable, or he may not...

Your horse will be communicating with you all the time you are together. You can't tell his story for him. I think this may be part of the problems you are having. You may be wise to take a good look at your horse and start listening to what he is telling you. His behaviour is a symptom of his management.


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## Ladyinred (18 July 2012)

AengusOg said:



			I'm trying to be objective here...



That may be contributing to his behaviour. I understand that your injury will mean that letting him run in loose will have to be the norm, for a while at least, but inconsistencies in routine can cause young horses to challenge their handler. 




You seem to have already made up your mind about that. He may be intrigued; he may be wary or even afraid of it; he may try to bite it; he may want to lick it; he may understand that you are hurt and vulnerable, or he may not...

Your horse will be communicating with you all the time you are together. You can't tell his story for him. I think this may be part of the problems you are having. You may be wise to take a good look at your horse and start listening to what he is telling you. His behaviour is a symptom of his management.
		
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 I like you AengusOg! You think like we do.


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## pip6 (18 July 2012)

As you are out of action why not send him to Matthew Hall (Sticklepath, about 30 mins from Exeter) for a while. Wonderful sensitive rider.


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## jhoward (18 July 2012)

i do understand about letting him in and out, but its short term i dont want him going to be turned away just yet as fields are miles away and im not up to doing gates etc, so whilst others are caring for him its got to be tough tities on that one.

on another note hes always come when ive called him... the vet said it was like something out of black beauty.. i call horse neighs thens come cantering up.

pip, im not sending him anywhere just yet and i dont think theres any point in him being sent away broken, then coming back to me when i still cant ride for months to come.. intotal i could be looking at as much as 5-6 months out of action.
will no more on that on friday.

a... ive spent a lot of time with this horse, and have exposed him to many new people and situations, i do generally know how he will react.. will be seeing him friday so shall report back... if ive not seen him for a few days his normal reaction is to ignore me. he is a very vocal horse to me, the first time i went away for a few days he didnt speak to me for 2 days.. i called him, he looked and actually turned away from me.


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## Daytona (21 July 2012)

We had a gelding who was cut late who could be the sweetest horse but by god when he turned its was really bad, he once went for my face full force mouth wide open I managed to back away and he hit my chest near breaking my collar bone then turned and tried to double barrel me inthe face I lucky managed to scramble out the way and all because I had shouted at him and gave him a smack for being rude.  It was very scary , yet 90% of time he was very nice.  But saying that he could be difficult to handle and also in field was a bulky to other horses ( think it was due to being cut late)  ended up finding him with a compound fracture to the top of his front leg was really quite traumatic and vet managed to get there just as he went into shock and fell over to put him to sleep.  We were shocked he ended up kicked do bad as he really was not nice to other horses in the field etc.  don't think I'd buy a cut late gelding due to our experience with him, it's really put me off.


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## Daytona (21 July 2012)

Dam iPhone - bully not bulky and we weren't shocked he ended up kicked


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## FfionWinnie (21 July 2012)

I had a horse that was an SSPCA cruelty case. One of the worst they ever had. 

Anyway when I got her if I touched her other than her head she turned into a kicking biting monster. I used to brush her with a fleecy mit


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## FfionWinnie (21 July 2012)

Oops. With the lead rope through a hay rack to keep her head pinned away from me because she was so vicious. She was good natured otherwise (!). In the end an elbow in her gob when she went for me cured the biting and a stable with breeze block walls instead of wood cured the kicking. (she kicked the breeze block once and it hurt and she never did it again). 

I agree no feeding from hand. Richard Maxwell and a be nice halter revolutionised my horse and she was completely normal after a year of doing that. 

You could never hit her tho, I went through a few farriers to find one who wouldn't dig her in the ribs/ slap her with a rasp if she fidgeted as that would turn her into a raving looney, even now at 17yr old. I got her at 2 yrs old.


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