# Session 17 warts & all.....



## Armas (1 August 2013)

Todays session.

[video=youtube_share;DTUgtiVCbwA]http://youtu.be/DTUgtiVCbwA[/video]


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## brighthair (1 August 2013)

I'm only 20 mins in (iPad froze) but the beginning/warm up work, even though he is (obviously will be!) still BTV, he looks a lot more relaxed and less concertined/compressed? 
He's so interesting to watch, I get the impression you could hack him on a long rein and he would be very very chilled, and the more you ask him to work and try to stop him evading, the hotter he gets?


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## brighthair (1 August 2013)

Have watched it all now. 21.50, 33.40 and 33.52 just so pleasing, he seems to benefit really well from that light seat in canter. And 30.00 in the canter (I think, I've confused myself!). He is definitely less tense - sure there are moments of tension but there are a lot more points when he isn't? And I see definite bits where he is taking the rein forward. I like when he gets tense/hot in the collection and she sends him forward it is helping as he's actually reaching and taking the length of rein forward for himself


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## vieshot (1 August 2013)

Oh, he's wearing more tack....


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## Armas (1 August 2013)

vieshot said:



			Oh, he's wearing more tack....
		
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Oh I see you have read the previous thread NOT.


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## sonjafoers (1 August 2013)

Armas said:



			Oh I see you have read the previous thread NOT.
		
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Not the sort of response I'd expect from an adult! Not everyone trawls through all these videos and the mountains of subsequent posts so I thought that was a bit harsh.

I've not watched the videos but I've skimmed through a lot of the aftermath and I'm surprised by your attitude at times - the post above in particular hilights why.


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## JFTDWS (1 August 2013)

sonjafoers said:



			Not the sort of response I'd expect from an adult! Not everyone trawls through all these videos and the mountains of subsequent posts so I thought that was a bit harsh.

I've not watched the videos but I've skimmed through a lot of the aftermath and I'm surprised by your attitude at times - the post above in particular hilights why.
		
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Tbf, Sonjafoers, if you had read the previous thread you would be aware that vieshot read and commented on it too.  I'm not convinced "he's wearing more tack" is a particularly mature post either!


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## vieshot (1 August 2013)

Armas said:



			Oh I see you have read the previous thread NOT.
		
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Sorry.....I wasn't aware that I had to have watched all 16 previous videos and the hundreds of comments before I was allowed to make my own. Christ. No I didn't really read the previous thread, however I am still shocked at your choice in gadget and would feel this way having read it or not.


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## vieshot (1 August 2013)

JFTD said:



			Tbf, Sonjafoers, if you had read the previous thread you would be aware that vieshot read and commented on it too.  I'm not convinced "he's wearing more tack" is a particularly mature post either!
		
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Actually I didn't read it much at all. I watched it and posted saying I didn't believe he looked relaxed as the original post claimed. I then skimmed to see if anyone had replied to me. I can't read all the posts as much as I would sometimes like to, not enough hours in the day!


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## Armas (1 August 2013)

I see that you commented on this thread and clearly did not watch the video in full. As if you had you would understand the choice in tack and you would understand why the tack was removed a short way in to the session.
Did you bother to listen to the riders comments at the end and her explanation ? I guess that the answer is no.


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## GinaGeo (1 August 2013)

I adore Armas - he's stunning. I adore the videos you put up of him in the field, strutting his stuff, using himself superbly and all without any pressure.  In the ridden videos, he looks almost resigned, half the horse he is when he's loose.  

If he was mine, and bearing in mind I haven't fully read the previous 16 session's worth of threads, I'd take all the pressure off, hack him out, perhaps give him a jump, let him learn to relax and enjoy being ridden again.  Some horse's can't handle being schooled excessively - I own a couple, and the more you work in the school, the more you drill things the worse they get as they get as they get worried. Yet if I school once a week there's a much more noticeable improvement.


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## vieshot (1 August 2013)

Armas said:



			I see that you commented on this thread and clearly did not watch the video in full. As if you had you would understand the choice in tack and you would understand why the tack was removed a short way in to the session.
Did you bother to listen to the riders comments at the end and her explanation ? I guess that the answer is no.
		
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Nope, I don't get enough time to ride my own horse so definitely don't have time to watch somebody else ride yours for forty minutes. I'm sorry that my opinion has touched such a nerve. It is just an opinion which I'm sure you can appreciate is expected when you post on a public forum.


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## vieshot (1 August 2013)

GinaGeo said:



			I adore Armas - he's stunning. I adore the videos you put up of him in the field, strutting his stuff, using himself superbly and all without any pressure.  In the ridden videos, he looks almost resigned, half the horse he is when he's loose.  

If he was mine, and bearing in mind I haven't fully read the previous 16 session's worth of threads, I'd take all the pressure off, hack him out, perhaps give him a jump, let him learn to relax and enjoy being ridden again.  Some horse's can't handle being schooled excessively - I own a couple, and the more you work in the school, the more you drill things the worse they get as they get as they get worried. Yet if I school once a week there's a much more noticeable improvement.
		
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Love this. Totally agree. He needs to go gallopy gallopy


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## Armas (1 August 2013)

Indeed your opinion is important. However to be able to give an informed educated opinion you need to watch the video. Other wise your opinion is worthless. Is there even a point in posting if you don't watch ??


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## ShadowHunter (1 August 2013)

GinaGeo said:



			I adore Armas - he's stunning. I adore the videos you put up of him in the field, strutting his stuff, using himself superbly and all without any pressure.  In the ridden videos, he looks almost resigned, half the horse he is when he's loose.  

If he was mine, and bearing in mind I haven't fully read the previous 16 session's worth of threads, I'd take all the pressure off, hack him out, perhaps give him a jump, let him learn to relax and enjoy being ridden again.  Some horse's can't handle being schooled excessively - I own a couple, and the more you work in the school, the more you drill things the worse they get as they get as they get worried. Yet if I school once a week there's a much more noticeable improvement.
		
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Agree with every word of this ^

I'm not very knowledgeable on the technical side of things but this strikes out to me a lot. He's very much in his element when he's galloping round his field and jumping over things. Why not do more of that with him?

I think i've missed something somewhere but whats your main goal with these sessions?


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## JFTDWS (1 August 2013)

vieshot said:



			Actually I didn't read it much at all. I watched it and posted saying I didn't believe he looked relaxed as the original post claimed. I then skimmed to see if anyone had replied to me. I can't read all the posts as much as I would sometimes like to, not enough hours in the day!
		
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I can sympathise with that - I haven't watched or read all Armas' training reports.  But having watched the previous video and skimmed the thread, the additions to the tack should have been unsurprising...  Now if you'd said "I don't approve of the running reins", or "I don't think they're achieving what she wants",  I'd think you were just expressing your opinion - the way you put it sounded more of a snide dig at the OP, and these threads get enough of those!  I know the OP doesn't seem to care, though, so...


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## showingmadfilly (1 August 2013)

I don't think it's that he doesn't care, but more that its his horse and he's not worried what others think as long as the horse is happy and sound.


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## AdorableAlice (1 August 2013)

GinaGeo said:



			I adore Armas - he's stunning. I adore the videos you put up of him in the field, strutting his stuff, using himself superbly and all without any pressure.  In the ridden videos, he looks almost resigned, half the horse he is when he's loose.  

If he was mine, and bearing in mind I haven't fully read the previous 16 session's worth of threads, I'd take all the pressure off, hack him out, perhaps give him a jump, let him learn to relax and enjoy being ridden again.  Some horse's can't handle being schooled excessively - I own a couple, and the more you work in the school, the more you drill things the worse they get as they get as they get worried. Yet if I school once a week there's a much more noticeable improvement.
		
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There is something in this comment.  He does not float my boat in terms of conformation or type, but I do wonder if he would be better off out of the school, chuck the contact away and take him hacking in woodland, up and down hills and on tracks where he is forced to pick his way and look after himself without help from the rider.

Would six months of this type of work achieve a forward going, long and low outline with the build up of muscle behind the saddle, improve balance and make the horse think for himself ?  I really cannot see that endless circles in the school is going to persuade this horse to uncurl himself. stretch down and forward and let go through his back.

I know nothing about the breed so perhaps the above is not possible, but it certainly works for all my young horses.


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## BWa (1 August 2013)

I'm not watching all of each video but I can see improvement.


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## DabDab (1 August 2013)

I thought he looked better today, particularly with regards to his relaxation at the start of the session and the initial canter work. Also when the rider started the passagey steps she did a good transition with him up to a medium trot and he carried himself and moved really nicely. However, after that when she did the passagey steps she did what I have seen her do a lot before, which was just drop him and let him run off. I'm not entirely sure why she does that....?

But that aside I thought it was a relatively positive session until the lateral work in walk at the end... I have never commented on his awkwardness behind before, but James, Armas really does appear to have pain (rather than weakness) in that hind leg. He limps sideways as he has to bear down on that leg...


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## Purple18 (1 August 2013)

I'm sorry but I  it's unfair that your asking that people replying should watch the video in full before commenting. everyone here has there own things to do in their life's. I don't like many others have  20 to 45 minutes depending on the video to watch it in full. that's a lot to ask everyday.

all the people who are saying he looks lame can't all be wrong? surely  it's not just one person commenting on that it's many.


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## Mongoose11 (1 August 2013)

Ok so if we take this as a whole process we can't deny that there have been improvements, but I am still not sure I agree with her approach here. As I've said before and AA suggested earlier, take away the reins and allow him to find his balance and build himself up.

This vid was ouchy to me in the walk at the beginning because that sticky leg sticks out a mile today. Do we know he isn't in pain on it Armas?


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## martlin (1 August 2013)

Probably against my better judgement, I am going to dip a toe and post 


AdorableAlice said:



			There is something in this comment.  He does not float my boat in terms of conformation or type, but I do wonder if he would be better off out of the school, chuck the contact away and take him hacking in woodland, up and down hills and on tracks where he is forced to pick his way and look after himself without help from the rider.

Would six months of this type of work achieve a forward going, long and low outline with the build up of muscle behind the saddle, improve balance and make the horse think for himself ?
		
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Funny you should say that  Back in dim and distant past, when I was living in my home country with harsh winters and indoor schools have been a rarity, we used to hack out our showjumpers of various levels throughout the cold months. From November to end of Feb, all I would do is ride out a string over hills, fields and tracks, in snow and cold, half sitting and half hanging onto them, it wasn't the most ''quality'' work, but without fail, every year at the start of season training camp in March, every single horse would present with swinging, powering through from behind movement that required very little effort from the jockey. Go figure.


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## Kikke (1 August 2013)

He is such a lovely looking horse and I can defiantly see improvement and more relaxation. 
I find it hard to be a bit negative but I do think she should really be much lighter in her seat because whenever she does he seems so much more happy. IMHO she should say of his back as much as possible.


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## Roody2 (1 August 2013)

Ok, so as a warning Armas, I watched probably the first two videos and have now picked this back up at session 17 so I haven't watched the in between vids or read any if the discussion. BUT....
I would wonder why the horse is being moved on to the advanced movements in the same session that started with side reins (or whatever they were) to control the shoulder? Surely you would want the basics in place before getting more complicated? Would it not be fairer to the horse to just work on a few items in a session (I.e. straightness, shoulder control and quality of the working trot) than bombard him with the volume of work he went through in that 30 minutes? The trot at about 17:40 was warp speed after the passage work -reminiscent of the first session and a real backward step IMO. I can imagine this rider isn't cheap, so you may want to see 'results' but don't move on to passage before he can consistently trot in a satisfactory contact.
Just my opinion though....


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## Spring Feather (1 August 2013)

Just want to point out, the side reins were only on for a short time in this video.

Has Virginie ever ridden in England, James?  When she was a lot younger?  She looks awfully like a girl who stayed with my family at our yard in the UK many years ago.  She was also from the Loire and named Virginie.  Maybe not, just coincidence as it was many years ago now, but just thought I'd ask as she does look familiar.


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## PolarSkye (1 August 2013)

GinaGeo said:



			I adore Armas - he's stunning. I adore the videos you put up of him in the field, strutting his stuff, using himself superbly and all without any pressure.  In the ridden videos, he looks almost resigned, half the horse he is when he's loose.  

If he was mine, and bearing in mind I haven't fully read the previous 16 session's worth of threads, I'd take all the pressure off, hack him out, perhaps give him a jump, let him learn to relax and enjoy being ridden again.  Some horse's can't handle being schooled excessively - I own a couple, and the more you work in the school, the more you drill things the worse they get as they get as they get worried. Yet if I school once a week there's a much more noticeable improvement.
		
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I agree with this . . . and I believe I've said it before . . . I think Armas will gain much more strength and confidence in his own balance by being a horse.  And, yes, that's a very trite phrase, but I know what I mean - so there .

P


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## FlyingCircus (1 August 2013)

Armas, I hope you don't mind me asking, but what is the end goal?

The end goal of his training with this rider (where I assume you will take over??)
Then the end goal of where you want him to be when you ride him (competing? dressage? Iberian breed classes?) 

I'm curious to hear what you want from Armas in the long run and if you think he has the structure/mentality to get there.


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## Bryndu (1 August 2013)

Hi James...yep I am still watching...

You mention at the end of the vid about suggestions from other posters regarding Armas' lameness ( I am not a vet so I could not comment) and she mentions that he is just not wanting to use his muscles behind and that he is a bit weak....so you reply that he needs to work on his musculation ...I am lovin' that word....
Would it be possible to ask her why she does not deem the use of transitions a valuable tool to help with the tempo she talks about and also the building up of back muscles....? Not being smart here...just interested.

Many thanks
Best wishes
Bryndu


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## galaxy (1 August 2013)

Bryndu said:



			Hi James...yep I am still watching...

You mention at the end of the vid about suggestions from other posters regarding Armas' lameness ( I am not a vet so I could not comment) and she mentions that he is just not wanting to use his muscles behind and that he is a bit weak....so you reply that he needs to work on his musculation .

Many thanks
Best wishes
Bryndu
		
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I have never commented but have watched most of your videos. I'm sorry to say but I do agree with other posts that the horse is lame.  The rider in the video seems to think that viewers are only seeing this in the harder work and if he was lame we would see it from the start.  In my opinion the horse is quite clearly not right behind even walking on a loose rein right at the start.  It does not improve with work either.  Look at his hind legs, he is not taking even steps.

Have you had a vet follow up recently after his issues earlier in the year?


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## FionaM12 (1 August 2013)

I'm quite surprised anyone has time to watch all these films and keep up with all the threads!


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## milliepops (1 August 2013)

Well.. in I go again :wink3: with a post long enough to rival one of GG's  but I thought there were a lot of very positive moments during this session.  The working trot and canter is looking possibly the best it has so far under saddle. He is beginning to look as relaxed and through as he does on the long reins now which is lovely. And so nice to see him returning to that open frame each time as his 'rest' position after doing some harder work.

For me, this session really highlighted where I think this rider has picked up from where David left off. At the end of the BB videos I felt the horse was allowing himself to be steered and the pace walk/trot/canter to be selected, but not a lot more.  Where I think this rider has really succeeded is changing the horse's attitude slightly to the point where he is now allowing himself to be *ridden* much more - big steps, small steps, sideways, forward, back - it all looks a lot more accepting. That's quite a big change for me, and an important one because even the basics can't be improved until the horse lets the rider 'in'.  

I don't know her intentions, clearly, but using passagey steps and half steps is a good trick in this case because it's something he's found easy almost immediately. So he has quickly learnt to wait but still keep working as she asks him to maintain the activity.  Sure, they are not test quality, nor do I believe that is what she is aiming for. But a useful tool to show the horse that he doesn't have to run away from the leg. Something which can then be applied to other work. A roundabout way of achieving that, but it looks like the penny is dropping.

I can also maybe see the logic behind the rather fast trot afterwards. He's probably not a horse that will find extensions easy in the trot. Where she has kept the pressure on in previous sessions while he worked out how to produce those passagey steps, so it could also happen that if he is asked to keep trotting forward into a contact, eventually he may twig and instead of rushing he could begin to push more.  
I only mention it because it has been something that has helped my horse to understand what is needed. On a hack, extensions come very easy but in the school she has a mental block. No amount of transitions, lateral work, all the usual prep for extending really made a difference - she needed to run until she pulled into the reins and pushed with her hind legs. not pretty, not classical, but it was how she learnt.

On the subject of showing a horse something in a different way, I thought the running reins were reasonably successful. he did not appear confused or overfaced by them after the first couple of minutes.

re. the walk. I think a chiro visit will be well timed. But the right hind issue is still more apparent when he is not accepting the aids she is giving. When he does, it is much, much less glaring.  It looked like baby walk pirouettes that she was working on before each canter transition. To be fair, they haven't done a lot of work on the walk together so he is finding that a difficult question - to allow his body to be placed where she is asking, while still remaining soft and accepting.  She's said before that he wants to step out, rather than under with that hind leg  and it's not uncommon for the steps to become irregular at that point. (not desirable, but given his history not unexpected either :wink3.


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## Purple18 (1 August 2013)

still talk about lameness I see oh sorry no he isn't lame...:rolleyes3:

I don't really see how you can ignore the issue when so many people have mentioned it. 

Didn't you have a vet  when Armas had choke. yes as far as I know no one here is a vet but that vet you used in the choke situation was wrong  why wouldn't another vet be wrong about the lameness and returning back to normal work ? 


were all trying to help I'm pretty sure no one is just saying he's lame for the sake of it.


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## Armas (1 August 2013)

Because the vet that treated the SI and the follow ups is one of the French Olympic vets working at the Ecole nationale d'équitation et du Cadre Noir de Saumur. The vet is a specialised and can only be seen with a referral.
So I am in no doubt about his assessment. Interestingly milliepops  is also a vet and also is of the opinion that it is weakness. But not content with that I asked two other friends who are vets to watch the videos as they are in the UK there analysis was the same.


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## justabob (1 August 2013)

I love and have ex race horses, I would never expect to go and win races with them, if they could, I would not be lucky enough to have them. James got a older PRE from Spain and I am sure that if Armas was without problems, be it sound wise, ability wise he would not  have been gelded, nor would he have been offered for sale to a novice such as James. I feel sure that the home required for this horse was for a novice rider to hack and enjoy and not someone who wants to make him into something that he never was and will never be. The only person not really enjoying this horse for what he is, is James, and he is the one that does not ride him. He has lots of friends on here though and the sessions and replies to the sessions will go on until he gets another trainer, then it will start all over again.


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## _GG_ (1 August 2013)

milliepops said:



			Well.. in I go again :wink3: with a post long enough to rival one of GG's  but I thought there were a lot of very positive moments during this session.  The working trot and canter is looking possibly the best it has so far under saddle. He is beginning to look as relaxed and through as he does on the long reins now which is lovely. And so nice to see him returning to that open frame each time as his 'rest' position after doing some harder work.

For me, this session really highlighted where I think this rider has picked up from where David left off. At the end of the BB videos I felt the horse was allowing himself to be steered and the pace walk/trot/canter to be selected, but not a lot more.  Where I think this rider has really succeeded is changing the horse's attitude slightly to the point where he is now allowing himself to be *ridden* much more - big steps, small steps, sideways, forward, back - it all looks a lot more accepting. That's quite a big change for me, and an important one because even the basics can't be improved until the horse lets the rider 'in'.  

I don't know her intentions, clearly, but using passagey steps and half steps is a good trick in this case because it's something he's found easy almost immediately. So he has quickly learnt to wait but still keep working as she asks him to maintain the activity.  Sure, they are not test quality, nor do I believe that is what she is aiming for. But a useful tool to show the horse that he doesn't have to run away from the leg. Something which can then be applied to other work. A roundabout way of achieving that, but it looks like the penny is dropping.

I can also maybe see the logic behind the rather fast trot afterwards. He's probably not a horse that will find extensions easy in the trot. Where she has kept the pressure on in previous sessions while he worked out how to produce those passagey steps, so it could also happen that if he is asked to keep trotting forward into a contact, eventually he may twig and instead of rushing he could begin to push more.  
I only mention it because it has been something that has helped my horse to understand what is needed. On a hack, extensions come very easy but in the school she has a mental block. No amount of transitions, lateral work, all the usual prep for extending really made a difference - she needed to run until she pulled into the reins and pushed with her hind legs. not pretty, not classical, but it was how she learnt.

On the subject of showing a horse something in a different way, I thought the running reins were reasonably successful. he did not appear confused or overfaced by them after the first couple of minutes.

re. the walk. I think a chiro visit will be well timed. But the right hind issue is still more apparent when he is not accepting the aids she is giving. When he does, it is much, much less glaring.  It looked like baby walk pirouettes that she was working on before each canter transition. To be fair, they haven't done a lot of work on the walk together so he is finding that a difficult question - to allow his body to be placed where she is asking, while still remaining soft and accepting.  She's said before that he wants to step out, rather than under with that hind leg  and it's not uncommon for the steps to become irregular at that point. (not desirable, but given his history not unexpected either :wink3.
		
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Would you like me to send you some cake? You have just saved me posting :smile3:

The only differences being, I cannot compare to BB as have only seen one video of him riding and...

I do think he looked a little more guarded in his movement behind today. I'd like to maybe see the sessions limited to 30 minutes when working on this kind of stuff. 

But, as for the running reins, agree with you Milliepops. I actually think he relaxed into the security that they gave him. Not a bad thing in the short term but not something I would want to see him learn to rely on as it will put him back at square one. 

I think that may be it from me actually...you covered it as if you were in my head :smile3:


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## Clare85 (1 August 2013)

Oh dear, I appear to have become slightly addicted to Armas!

I thought there was a lot more to like about today's video. Armas looked much more relaxed and accepting and as the session went on he dropped BTV much less. Glad the running reins were removed quickly as I don't think they were helpful. 

I have to agree with others though that I think the pressure should be taken off him a bit. He seemed to be starting to produce some nice moments today, but instead of letting him break after the few sweet steps he gave, he was asked to di more and more, which didn't seem much reward to me.

I thought some of his canter work was nice and he seemed to be using his back end more effectively. However, I do feel he would benefit from more transitions, turns across the school, variation to just going round and round in one pace for what seems like hours. Tempo wise, fitness wise and muscle wise, balancing exercises would help a lot, and maybe some pole work too. 

I have to say, I really do have a soft spot for Armas, what a lovely chap!


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## ester (1 August 2013)

GFG, I agree, I think in a previous thread James said that Armas was passed fit for work after steroid injection but not been lameness assessed since. And as many would know on here SI often needs to be a management issue/retreatment etc. 

James, iirc you don't have years of horse experience behind you hence why you appeared on here in the first place/presumably why you post vids for comment etc? I think it must be pretty hard receiving such a barrage of information and do think that some posts certainly have more credit than others. But any poster on here regularly does know who know's what they are talking about and do have the experience to comment, they don't all collectively say the same thing and I wouldn't expect them to but I do think that they are all worth listening too.


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## Armas (1 August 2013)

Yet again justbob your posts are nonsense. Many more horses are gelded and sold in Spain now as it makes them more commercial. You can buy any level of PRE that you want in Spain. I enjoy and hack out my horse every week and have recently returned from a 4 day beach trip. So your analysis is wrong.
Its strange that you have NEVER posted any thing ever positive on any of my threads. Even pictures of my boy sleeping in the sun all you could say is he looks under weight.
Armas was 7 when I bought him not particular old.


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## _GG_ (1 August 2013)

justabob said:



			I love and have ex race horses, I would never expect to go and win races with them, if they could, I would not be lucky enough to have them. James got a older PRE from Spain and I am sure that if Armas was without problems, be it sound wise, ability wise he would not  have been gelded, nor would he have been offered for sale to a novice such as James. I feel sure that the home required for this horse was for a novice rider to hack and enjoy and not someone who wants to make him into something that he never was and will never be. The only person not really enjoying this horse for what he is, is James, and he is the one that does not ride him. He has lots of friends on here though and the sessions and replies to the sessions will go on until he gets another trainer, then it will start all over again.
		
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Well, if he has a friend in me, I have been pretty damn hard on him throughout all the threads. I think most have just been objective. 

I understand your point about the horses potential, but I don't personally have a problem in a horse like this being trained enough to make him strong enough for some low level dressage and equitation which is the aim. Also, even a happy hacker, if it is indeed going to be happy, needs to be comfortable and strong enough to hack. The issues this horse has with the weakhoolness need working on to overcome. To just hack and enjoy him as it is would be to willingly allow him to always have a weakness, short of making hacking a job that would do the work outside of the school.

Better to do some work and have a happy, healthy and strong horse at the end than not do the work and leave the horse to have a long term issue. 

That's just my opinion of course and I wouldn't approach it the same way as this trainer, but I don't think she's doing too bad a job tbf.


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## FionaM12 (1 August 2013)

justabob said:



			I love and have ex race horses, I would never expect to go and win races with them, if they could, I would not be lucky enough to have them. James got a older PRE from Spain and I am sure that if Armas was without problems, be it sound wise, ability wise he would not  have been gelded, nor would he have been offered for sale to a novice such as James. I feel sure that the home required for this horse was for a novice rider to hack and enjoy and not someone who wants to make him into something that he never was and will never be. The only person not really enjoying this horse for what he is, is James, and he is the one that does not ride him. He has lots of friends on here though and the sessions and replies to the sessions will go on until he gets another trainer, then it will start all over again.
		
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I find this an interesting observation and can't help but think there may be some truth and wisdom in it.


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## milliepops (1 August 2013)

Armas said:



			milliepops  is also a vet
		
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hells bells, oh, that I was! I think all that the sun has gone to your head :wink3:


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## DabDab (1 August 2013)

milliepops said:



			I can also maybe see the logic behind the rather fast trot afterwards. He's probably not a horse that will find extensions easy in the trot. Where she has kept the pressure on in previous sessions while he worked out how to produce those passagey steps, so it could also happen that if he is asked to keep trotting forward into a contact, eventually he may twig and instead of rushing he could begin to push more.  
I only mention it because it has been something that has helped my horse to understand what is needed. On a hack, extensions come very easy but in the school she has a mental block. No amount of transitions, lateral work, all the usual prep for extending really made a difference - she needed to run until she pulled into the reins and pushed with her hind legs. not pretty, not classical, but it was how she learnt.

On the subject of showing a horse something in a different way, I thought the running reins were reasonably successful. he did not appear confused or overfaced by them after the first couple of minutes.

re. the walk. I think a chiro visit will be well timed. But the right hind issue is still more apparent when he is not accepting the aids she is giving. When he does, it is much, much less glaring.  It looked like baby walk pirouettes that she was working on before each canter transition. To be fair, they haven't done a lot of work on the walk together so he is finding that a difficult question - to allow his body to be placed where she is asking, while still remaining soft and accepting.  She's said before that he wants to step out, rather than under with that hind leg  and it's not uncommon for the steps to become irregular at that point. (not desirable, but given his history not unexpected either :wink3.
		
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My issue was not that she was allowing him to rush forwards, because it worked beautifully on the first couple of occasions she did it in this session, but after that she started to drop him after the half steps, so that he had nothing to rush into.

I don't think the running reins did any harm, and I agree that he accepted them very well, but I don't think they had the desired effect, which is why she took them off. TBH I think that straightness-wise she is losing the back end more than the front, which is perhaps why she was using the piri work at the end.

With regards the lameness in the walk work at the end - that is the first time I have seen movement that made me think that it was more than just a weakness in that area. To my eyes it goes beyond irregular steps and looks like a pain reflex because of the visible jolting as he puts that hind underneath him and bears a lot of weight through it.


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## justabob (1 August 2013)

Well something certainly has!


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## Frozen Hoof Boots (1 August 2013)

Firstly he looks lame behind and swishes his tail when he strikes off right behind each time.
Secondly watching his neck wound in is hard to watch over and over stuffy stilted movement. But I see this completely alter when she lifts her backside out the saddle in a jump seat position both in trot and in canter where she lets the rein go and actually allows him forward that he does become a completely different outline.  For me she doesn't stretch him enough and needs to forget about hands and ride with her leg and seat. and as I said on the previous posting he needs to swing through his back more.  Geez he must be so tight in his back.   Go back James and watch it when she lifts her seat forward into jump seat.

Take him out hacking, get him going forward and do some hillwork.  Get him stronger.


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## Armas (1 August 2013)

Goingforgold said:



			Armas, you don't come across particularly nice. Considering you are apparently a novice owner (and i would agree with this as it seems to me you have learnt the terms but not the understanding), you would do better to be less, dare i say it, arrogant, and perhaps get an actual vet out to look at the horse.

Whether or not you think some posters are nonsense, time and time again i see you only wanting nice comments and questioning others experience when it comes to the undesirable comments you get.

I don't really know what the point is of all these (daily) videos. You say you like the debate but your actions speak otherwise. In my experience your horse is lame. Whether you choose to believe me is another matter. 

I think considering your limited experience you would do better then to be rude and arrogant to some posters and perhaps be more open to other ideas. I agree with justabob, you are more likely to get a PRE gelded in England than in Spain as they are a status symbol. At the end of the day, you bought Armas as a novice rider to have fun on, unfortunately if he showed the promise to be a top dressage horse he might not have been sold to you or even at all. Dressage when done correctly is fantastic in improving a horse way of going, but you must have the basics installed. 

You clearly love your horse, but i do believe you might be blinded by ambition. There is nothing wrong in building things slow. But are you able to continue with the work this trainer is doing? Its all very well paying £££ for her to ride him and train him but you will have to come along behind and compliment her work.
		
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Do you own a PRE have you been to Spain to by a PRE what is your experience in that market ? As you can by any level of horse you want in Spain perhaps you have not heard that there is a recession in Spain.
Frankly rude and arrogant yep I have no problem with being both of those to people that rude and arrogant to me why would I ever want to be polite to a person who constantly rude to me ??


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## Armas (1 August 2013)

Again another one of your non factual posts !


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## FionaM12 (1 August 2013)

Armas said:



			Yet again justbob your posts are nonsense. Many more horses are gelded and sold in Spain now as it makes them more commercial. You can buy any level of PRE that you want in Spain. I enjoy and hack out my horse every week and have recently returned from a 4 day beach trip. So your analysis is wrong.
Its strange that you have NEVER posted any thing ever positive on any of my threads. Even pictures of my boy sleeping in the sun all you could say is he looks under weight.
Armas was 7 when I bought him not particular old.
		
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James I know justabob can be a bit rude at times and you and she have had differences, but I didn't think her post was unpleasant on this occasion. You might not agree with it, and she could be wrong, but it's not nonsense. I can see some sense in it.

I used to love your posts of Armas running free and you and he out together when you were riding him yourself. The difference to me between those old posts and the ones you put up now, is you and he looked really happy. You both seemed to be enjoying your life together in a beautiful setting. 

To me that's not how it looks now.


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## AdorableAlice (1 August 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			I'm quite surprised anyone has time to watch all these films and keep up with all the threads!
		
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When you are as bored and stuck in the house as I am, it is possible to read anything and everything, ranging from this thread about a strangely shaped spanish horse to the back of a cereal box.  End result is what use is a spanish horse other than long manes, poor movement and odd conformation.  All cereal is far more fattening than I thought it was !

The forum is very boring at the moment, lets have some more interesting posts, I need something to keep me occupied through yet another sleepless night.  I shall be reaching for Fifty Shades of Grey soon.


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## Purple18 (1 August 2013)

how much more training with the trainer before you get on board ? are you going to be taught every she has taught armas. Or is the plan for her to ride him all the time ?


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## Amaranta (1 August 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			When you are as bored and stuck in the house as I am, it is possible to read anything and everything, ranging from this thread about a strangely shaped spanish horse to the back of a cereal box.  End result is what use is a spanish horse other than long manes, poor movement and odd conformation.  All cereal is far more fattening than I thought it was !

The forum is very boring at the moment, lets have some more interesting posts, I need something to keep me occupied through yet another sleepless night.  I shall be reaching for Fifty Shades of Grey soon.
		
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Sweeping statement re Spanish horses and their usefulness!

One of mine is Ad Med, will just pop out and tell her that she has odd conformation and poor movement!

Armas is right, it is possible to get Spanish horses from Spain at any level, the Spaniards have also started to geld them as this makes them easier to sell into the UK and USA markets.

Armas may not be GP material, but there is no reason whatsoever why he could not, like any other horse, do a decent Elem test.


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## FionaM12 (1 August 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			He hasn't thought that far ahead lol !
		
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FF you really do seem to come in just to stir and be personal. Have you got a grudge against James?


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## Amaranta (1 August 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			He hasn't thought that far ahead lol !
		
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Really?  Is that necessary?


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## FionaM12 (1 August 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Really?  Is that necessary?
		
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Unpleasant isn't it? most people on this thread are IMO just expressing different opinions, some of which  may be uncomfortable for James to hear. However FF's are mostly just sniping and bitchy.


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## _GG_ (1 August 2013)

I suppose it's too much to hope that when people post on these....or any threads, they might just stop and try and be nice rather than what is starting to happen here yet again. 

This kind of sniping is a really sad show of human behaviour. It also will do nothing to help the horse, so if you're just going to post to be negative...you have no right to say you are in favour of the horses wellbeing as anything constructive you may have to say will likely be ignored. 

You can achieve far more through kindness and encouragement than you ever will through rudeness and discouragement.


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## Armas (1 August 2013)

Lets put thing in to perspective. Yes I have owned one PRE. However given I grew up in Spain speak Spanish fluently and have spent the last two years learning as much as I can about theses horses. spent my child hood around Spanish horses hence my love of them.
What greats me is statements such as they don't sell PRE's to any one. 99% of studs will sell any horse to any one as long as they have the money.
As Amaranta stated they are now exporting gelded horses to the USA

My post was not intended to personal.


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## DabDab (1 August 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			Let him answer for himself please
		
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What have you said on this thread that requires any kind of intelligent answer?


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## FionaM12 (1 August 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			Let him answer for himself please
		
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You appear to be a troll so I think James would be best advised to ignore you, as I will myself from now on.


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## Amaranta (1 August 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			Let him answer for himself please
		
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I was not answering you, I was expressing my distaste for your pettiness, you don't like Armas, that much is plain, but your childish little jibes just make you look stupid and, as has already been said, does nothing for this horse.

Can't understand why UI is not being used, but then perhaps you enjoy an argument.


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## _GG_ (1 August 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			Let him answer for himself please
		
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If you want to only have answers from James, may I suggest you use the Private Message function. By posting publicly, you lose control of who can and can't or will and won't answer.


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## Purple18 (1 August 2013)

it's annoying how people with proper questions are being overlooked by bitchy comments 

Forest Fox you clearly have been upset by something on one of this threads. But it's probably better if you iron that out by PM


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## _GG_ (1 August 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			Sorry but I hav'nt " been upset by one of this threads" I have asked questions that hav'nt been asnswered
		
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They have been answered, you haven't like the answers you've been given. You're a funny little thing aren't you. 

Carry on


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## Caol Ila (1 August 2013)

I thought a lot of the work looked better.  He is much more uphill and in the contact.

But...  That's a whole lot of collected work in the last few sessions for a horse who hasn't really been asked to work in that manner before and, on top of that, a horse who has weak coupling and lacks the depth through the loins, huge sloping bum, and well let down hocks you see in horses who excel at that type of stuff and stay sound doing it.  He also looked funky behind in the walk and canter pirouettes (well, he never really managed the canter pirouette) on the left rein.


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## _GG_ (1 August 2013)

Caol Ila said:



			I thought a lot of the work looked better.  He is much more uphill and in the contact.

But...  That's a whole lot of collected work in the last few sessions for a horse who hasn't really been asked to work in that manner before and, on top of that, a horse who has weak coupling and lacks the depth through the loins, huge sloping bum, and well let down hocks you see in horses who excel at that type of stuff.  He also looked funky behind in the walk and canter pirouettes (well, he never really managed the canter pirouette) on the left rein.
		
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Agree to all. :smile3:


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## _GG_ (1 August 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			Hasn't "justgiving " been made bankrupt ?
		
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No...that's "www.charitygiving.om". They have been suspended. 

Justgiving ringfences the funds so the funds are safe. Thank you though


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## charlie76 (1 August 2013)

I said god knows how many videos ago that the reason that the horse can never truly connect is because he is not sound behind, but I was dismissed. Its fine being aware of your horse having soundness issues and riding him/ managing him accordingly but to expect him to work in the way that he is day in and day out is eventually going to break him. 
If you watch your videos , the horse very rarely, if ever, tracks up in any of his trot work. No amount of lateral of lateral work, forward trot, collect trot, passage or draw reins will help him until you solve the soundness issue. 

My husband horse had sacroiliac issues among other things, he could not collect or connect. There is simply never enough power. 

Forget the contact issue, sort out the unlevel ness, your horse is very very honest and willing but he is shouting at you that he hurts. 

I know you will dismiss this, but take a good look at your videos, then look at your videos before the lameness issues and I m sure you will see a difference.

The canter work at the end shows a canter that is typical of sacroiliac or hind limb lameness, he looks like he is about the go,disunited at any point. The canter almost bunny hops behind rather than showing a clear split in the hind legs 

The riders position and the way she swaps and changes from sitting to rising to hovering trot tells you she feels he isn't right.

Finally, has your vet seen your horse under saddle? Just wondering as ours looks ok in hand, it doesn't show until he is ridden.


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## Marydoll (1 August 2013)

Goingforgold said:



			I know what your reply is going to be armas, but the horse looks lame behind and I dont like the running reins. However, i feel like a broken record and my comments will be ignored so i think it is time i bow out.
		
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You and me both


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## ester (1 August 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Sweeping statement re Spanish horses and their usefulness!

One of mine is Ad Med, will just pop out and tell her that she has odd conformation and poor movement!

Armas is right, it is possible to get Spanish horses from Spain at any level, the Spaniards have also started to geld them as this makes them easier to sell into the UK and USA markets.

Armas may not be GP material, but there is no reason whatsoever why he could not, like any other horse, do a decent Elem test.
		
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I suppose that's sort of what I don't get although poss because the rider is trying to correct such different attributes- although little cob likes btv too . Said little cob -as my first pony- have managed to do a fair elem test and been plenty successful at novice without the need to do such high intensity work. Obv lateral work and collection but all within his physical abilities ie no half steps sort of level and collection not sustained for any sort of length of time etc ( and he's too old to take any further  ) I just suppose that this situ with armas is v different to what I know people do with their fun amateur/allrounder horses with regards to schooling.


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## Spring Feather (2 August 2013)

Goingforgold said:



			I don't really know what the point is of all these (daily) videos. You say you like the debate but your actions speak otherwise.
		
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I didn't understand the point either but took James at his word that he was posting so that he could get genuine feedback from HHOers, but as time has gone on I suspect there is a bit of jocularity and jibing going on now.  I started having the feeling a little while ago that there may be stupid playground games going on.  Post videos on here, snipe and laugh about the comments made here on the private FB group.  It's abundantly clear someone is composing responses for James to post on here.  I would like to hope this is not the case as that would be childish and silly but I have a strong feeling it is.


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## _GG_ (2 August 2013)

Goingforgold said:



			I agree, and in fact i received a private message off someone saying just that. To be honest it is all very well training the horse up, but I suspect James isn't half the rider this lady is, he needs to be care he doesn't have Armas trained beyond his own capabilities.
		
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That last sentence is something that does need to be taken into consideration I think.


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## lhotse (2 August 2013)

Forest Fox, are you DD????


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## Amymay (2 August 2013)

Armas said:



			What greats me is statements such as they don't sell PRE's to any one. 99% of studs will sell any horse to any one as long as they have the money.
As Amaranta stated they are now exporting gelded horses to the USA
		
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And shooting or abandoning more than they sell due to the economic crisis


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## Amaranta (2 August 2013)

amymay said:



			And shooting or abandoning more than they sell due to the economic crisis 

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That sadly is also true, Spain is going through a terrible crisis atm, not unlike ourselves tbh, horses that don't make the grade as breeding animals are no longer saleable and many are now going for meat, again not unlike this country.  Tragic.


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## cambrica (2 August 2013)

Probably another post to be ignored but it is not Armas I feel particularily sorry for. He is a beautiful animal and for best part of lives a life of luxury.
It is Virginie I feel for. Seemingly unaware that every lesson is being put out on a very public forum to have her riding scrutinised and comments made that she is totally unaware of. How many of us would be happy to find out that private lessons were being aired in such a way? Maybe its a case of what she don't know won't hurt. Or maybe she is aware, in which case I bow out.


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## RunToEarth (2 August 2013)

I've followed these threads, haven't watched all of the videos, haven't read all of the replies. I notice that they always attract people wanting to have a dig and perhaps because James is so willing to fire back it just encourages little arguments. 

I haven't commented because I have no experience of PRE horses, there are a lot more knowledgeable people on these threads that are taking a lot of time to respond with incredibly useful information. Perhaps if you were to take more of it on board, instead of countering everything with an excuse, you may be making a little more progress with the horse. He is lovely and I really enjoy the videos where he is with the girl - I think he is a horse in need of a bit more fun - bring him hunting, he would love that


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## Marydoll (2 August 2013)

Goingforgold said:



			I agree, and in fact i received a private message off someone saying just that. To be honest it is all very well training the horse up, but I suspect James isn't half the rider this lady is, he needs to be care he doesn't have Armas trained beyond his own capabilities.
		
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If this is in fact the case, then all i can say is what a sad person. To feel the need to court so much attention, id suggest, ignore future posts  as you would a child behaving in this way. As said in my earler post im out, but felt the need to reply to the suspected then confirmed by pm behaviour of the OP


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## FlaxenPony05 (2 August 2013)

cambrica said:



			Probably another post to be ignored but it is not Armas I feel particularily sorry for. He is a beautiful animal and for best part of lives a life of luxury.
It is Virginie I feel for. Seemingly unaware that every lesson is being put out on a very public forum to have her riding scrutinised and comments made that she is totally unaware of. How many of us would be happy to find out that private lessons were being aired in such a way? Maybe its a case of what she don't know won't hurt. Or maybe she is aware, in which case I bow out.
		
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    This is very true. I am in no way qualified to comment on these threads so I have just been lurking, but cambrica, you just hit the nail on the head. However, if it's true that Armas is lame, I feel for him too.


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## Amymay (2 August 2013)

cambrica said:



			It is Virginie I feel for. Seemingly unaware that every lesson is being put out on a very public forum to have her riding scrutinised and comments made that she is totally unaware of. How many of us would be happy to find out that private lessons were being aired in such a way? Maybe its a case of what she don't know won't hurt. Or maybe she is aware, in which case I bow out.
		
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My impression was that she was fully aware that this was all public.


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## Mongoose11 (2 August 2013)

amymay said:



			My impression was that she was fully aware that this was all public.
		
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I think she is because James often makes reference to 'a lot of people' or 'many viewers' during their conversations at then end?


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## _GG_ (2 August 2013)

Yes the trainer is aware. If anyone is worried that she may take offence at something they have said, then maybe they should try to find a way to say the same things in a more polite way. 

I'm happy to stand by everything I have said and if there was anything she disagreed with, I guess we'd have a very interesting discussion about it. She's a pro, she's open to all criticism whether she likes it or not...goes with the job. 

FWIW, I think she is being very gracious in doing the video comments...a lot of pros would never bother or feel the need...the fact that she does tells me that she at least wants people to understand her methods.


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## Armas (2 August 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			There would have been no way that ARMAS would have been sold to a novice unless he was a reject.
Just take a look at the Stud info....
		
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People wonder why I throw my toys out of my pram on occasion. Would you not react to this kind of rubbish?
The trainer is fully aware of the videos hence her comments.


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## Amaranta (2 August 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			There would have been no way that ARMAS would have been sold to a novice unless he was a reject.
Just take a look at the Stud info....
		
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You really are a nasty piece of work, what exactly is your beef?


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## FionaM12 (2 August 2013)

lhotse said:



			Forest Fox, are you DD????
		
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I doubt it. D_D could get cross and have spats with James and others, but FF is simply a troll. D_D's points made sense, she just got rather hot-headed in confrontational situations.

Forest Fox doesn't make points to be passionate about. She/he is simply trying to wind people up and cause trouble. I don't believe she is D_D. She's much nastier and best ignored.


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## ChestnutTinker (2 August 2013)

Well this escalated quickly!


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## Amymay (2 August 2013)

deleted


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## Goldenstar (2 August 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			There would have been no way that ARMAS would have been sold to a novice unless he was a reject.
Just take a look at the Stud info....
		
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I have not watched the video as i have not time atm just popped through the posts having coffee .
But feel the need to say calling someone's much loved horse a reject is unpleasant and very bad manners how would you feel if someone said that about your horse.
Unnecessary and a deliberate attempt to hurt and get a angry response from James.


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## FionaM12 (2 August 2013)

Armas said:



			Would you not react to this kind of rubbish?
		
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Goldenstar said:



			Unnecessary and a deliberate attempt to hurt and get a angry response from James.
		
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Exactly what a troll aims to do. :rolleyes3:


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## Purple18 (2 August 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			Sorry but I hav'nt " been upset by one of this threads" I have asked questions that hav'nt been asnswered
		
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*sigh* I can't even be bothered to answer you anymore let alone anyone else.  change the record


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## Amaranta (2 August 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			I doubt it. D_D could get cross and have spats with James and others, but FF is simply a troll. D_D's points made sense, she just got rather hot-headed and in confrontational situations.

Forest Fox doesn't make points to be passionate about. She/he is simply trying to wind people up and cause trouble. I don't believe she is D_D. She's much nastier and best ignored.
		
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True but still not convinced, this person seems to have a very personal grudge.  Mind you I saw the snide comment aimed at GG about Just Giving and thought she had perhaps reached new depths of horridness!

I have not always agreed with James, in fact I believe I told him not to buy a Spanish horse at all, I also pointed out in the very first video that I did not think the horse was right behind (moved very wide) BUT credit needs to be given where credit is due and no one can doubt that James, a self confessed novice, is trying to learn as much as he possibly can in order to do everything correctly.  He has also had a vet treat the problem. I do, however, agree that perhaps he should have more lessons where he is in the saddle.

For those that say that Armas never has fun, you are actually very wrong, James spends many days in the saddle himself simply having fun on this lovely horse, they do beach rides, forest rides and generally let off steam.

My favourite trainer for this horse (and I have made no secret of this either) is David, however he is in Spain so James had to find an alternative and this girl is a good second, there are things I don't like about the way she trains and there are things that I do like.  One of the things I do like is that she seems prepared to alter her methods, she has an open mind and is trying her best to understand this horse.  PRE's are very different to warmbloods (which is what her experience so far is in) they are hotter, sharper and generally more sensitive, they need to be ridden from the seat and legs and most need a very soft contact.

If I am brutally honest (and James knows just how brutally honest I can be  ) I also do not think the horse is ready for the more collected work, I would like to see him strengthen over his back before attempting passage etc.  If it were me, I would use baby lateral work (shoulder fore for instance) to straighten him and slow him down before attempting anything more complicated.

I HAVE used passage and piaffe to aid collection and it does really help, but the horse I use it with is much more strong and established than Armas is at the moment.

There, see, it is possible to be critical WITHOUT being personal and nasty.


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## _GG_ (2 August 2013)

Yes it is Amaranta. Where people can do that, their message gets taken on board. 

regarding the justgiving thing...I honestly can't post my feelings about that...so I won't.


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## ester (2 August 2013)

I'm bored, but from interest when Armas was new.. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSVtRdLC-10
and 3 weeks later:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEGz2maCXCk

no noseband, not particulary BTV in the work.. 

Vids also show training with this lady (from old posts the one that you had early on who had been to cadre noir that Armas went to for a couple of months when he first arrived? or someone else?)
Virginie
young jumping lad
David
Pascual
current lady
oh and team baringer?

It does seem like a lot of different training/riding styles in a year.


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## Mongoose11 (2 August 2013)

Jeepers! That doesn't even look like the same horse in the first video posted above! Green yes, but willing and calm. Bless his cottons!

That rider doesn't have half as much balance as Virginie so I'm wondering at what point he went from green and willing to hot and evasive? As soon as he was asked to work?


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## BSJAlove (2 August 2013)

That video posted above is a much nicer horse. Looks messy but he looks far more relaxed and calm. What happened?


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## _GG_ (2 August 2013)

Wow ester...I hadn't seen any of those...looks like a different horse!


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## ester (2 August 2013)

there are old vids in western and english tack, I think he has been ridden both.


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## Caol Ila (2 August 2013)

What Billie said.  Horse could be rounder in those videos, but he looks green and willing and pretty happy.  He's not falling on his face or fussing about the contact.


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## ozpoz (2 August 2013)

It's interesting. He's forward and bright, and his saddle clearly is flapping up and down on his back. I would guess he became evasive from trying to avoid back pain - I like to look at the "why?" when I'm evaluating a horse. I understand that if you pay a professional to produce results, then that is what they will do their best to achieve, but I do really agree with all those who say that the horse needs to repair the damage slowly and intensive schooling like he is having at te moment is only going to highlight his problems re. pain and not mend them.


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## Spring Feather (2 August 2013)

ester said:



			I'm bored, but from interest when Armas was new.. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSVtRdLC-10
and 3 weeks later:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEGz2maCXCk

no noseband, not particulary BTV in the work..
		
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Oh wow!  I haven't seen these videos.  No disrespect meant in the slightest but he looks like a generic riding school horse in those videos!


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## Zoobie (2 August 2013)

Lovely horse shame it could lose its sparkle . Looks crook same movement that mine has and he is def crook at the moment .


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## TheTrotter. (2 August 2013)

Is this also armas when he was in spain? Looks so much better... looks happy, green, and hot... but much better movement and more energy in his work... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOkLP0h5qwA


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## FlyingCircus (2 August 2013)

From watching those videos it's pretty obvious it was nothing the Spanish owners/breeders did to him when ridden that caused him to opt for the BTV as an evasion. When asked to do basics he seems pretty happy, when asked to do more or really alter his way of going he just doesn't look happy anymore.

I'm honestly not all that surprised they gelded him and sold him on, compared to some of Armas Stud's other horses, there's a vast different.


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## PaddyMonty (2 August 2013)

_GG_ said:



			Wow ester...I hadn't seen any of those...looks like a different horse!
		
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Neither had I. Completely confirms my thoughts that what you have now is a mismatch between horse and rider style. Nothing to do with rider ability, just suitability.


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## milliepops (2 August 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			No disrespect meant in the slightest but he looks like a generic riding school horse in those videos!
		
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That was exactly the phrase I had in my mind! Ask nothing of me... get nothing from me 

Tbh comparing what he is doing now to those videos is IMO the same as putting Virginie's sessions against the girl cantering bareback around the field   Not comparing like with like at all  In those 2 vids linked above the horse is basically at liberty, albeit with tack and a rider on.


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## FlyingCircus (2 August 2013)

milliepops said:



			That was exactly the phrase I had in my mind! Ask nothing of me... get nothing from me 

Tbh comparing what he is doing now to those videos is IMO the same as putting Virginie's sessions against the girl cantering bareback around the field   Not comparing like with like at all  In those 2 vids linked above the horse is basically at liberty, albeit with tack and a rider on.
		
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But Armas is clearly happier in that way of riding, which is why he was likely sold as a leisure horse rather than a serious competition prospect. Some horses can and some horses can't. It just seems that James is trying to make Armas into something he isn't, which is making the poor horse tense and shuffly.


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## AdorableAlice (2 August 2013)

Hard to believe it is the same horse.  A lot appears to have happened in twelve months, if only he could talk.


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## Wheels (2 August 2013)

milliepops said:



			That was exactly the phrase I had in my mind! Ask nothing of me... get nothing from me 

Tbh comparing what he is doing now to those videos is IMO the same as putting Virginie's sessions against the girl cantering bareback around the field   Not comparing like with like at all  In those 2 vids linked above the horse is basically at liberty, albeit with tack and a rider on.
		
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I do agree with your point - when he isn't / wasn't being asked too many questions then he is definitely more relaxed.  Why then is this not built on, a gradual process of asking a little more from the relaxed frame over time rather than being pulled/pushed/rushed into doing more complicated work.  It is known that horses do not really learn if they are stressed and to me he looks stressed in the more complicated work.

It may take longer to put the building blocks in place but they will stay there rather than teaching a few tricks without the basics being firmly in place.

I'm sorry Armas but I agree with paddy monty - i have said previously that I don't believe this is the right trainer for the horse.  If you look up some videos on youtube with the likes of Anja Beran or other similar trainers you will see how relaxed those horses are and how much they are learning and enjoying their work.  That type of training is certainly what I aspire to in my own training although I am a long way off, it is a path I intend to learn much more about and to take


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## milliepops (2 August 2013)

FlyingCircus said:



			But Armas is clearly happier in that way of riding, which is why he was likely sold as a leisure horse rather than a serious competition prospect. Some horses can and some horses can't. It just seems that James is trying to make Armas into something he isn't, which is making the poor horse tense and shuffly.
		
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I don't really wish to comment on when the horse is _happier_, I don't believe him to be unhappy as such with what he is doing now and tbf all horses would probably be happiest left to their own devices in a field with some buddies. 
At some point, even continuing with the same rider that was in the 2 videos that ester posted, he would reach the stage where he needed to go into the contact properly (although he was 'round' in parts of those it was a hollow shape rather than over the back into a proper connection) and he would also need to learn to become laterally supple and responsive to more refined aids & questions. I also thought he looked a bit uncomfortable in his mouth at times in those, which doesn't seem to be an issue at the moment.

I don't think James is doing anything detrimental to his horse.  I don't think he's trying to make him into a GP or high school horse. I think he just needs to get the horse established to the point where he is accepting of the rider in the school work, so that J can then get back on and continue himself.  

As I said last night, to my mind Virginie has gone quite some way towards getting that acceptance.  (putting aside whatever happened in the 12 months between videos... and remembering the horse that she first sat on, since that was *her* starting point, not the horse in the other videos.  None of us have a time machine... nice as that would be... and she can't undo the horse's history, just patch it and build on it as best as she can)


& by patch I don't mean bodge it. I mean she can't *make* him unlearn things or experiences. All she can do it try to mend it in her own way.  That's all any of us can do, even if a horse is re-started, you are often gently battling against what it learnt the first time round :wink3:


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## Mongoose11 (2 August 2013)

My addiction to this thread is doing my head in. Can someone force me into cold turkey? Must go and walk the dog!


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## Goldenstar (2 August 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			My addiction to this thread is doing my head in. Can someone force me into cold turkey? Must go and walk the dog!
		
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Love it I keep walking past the iPad and having a peek,
Don't have time to watch the tape in one go though.
Walk that dog you know you should.


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## _GG_ (2 August 2013)

milliepops said:



			I don't really wish to comment on when the horse is _happier_, I don't believe him to be unhappy as such with what he is doing now and tbf all horses would probably be happiest left to their own devices in a field with some buddies. 
At some point, even continuing with the same rider that was in the 2 videos that ester posted, he would reach the stage where he needed to go into the contact properly (although he was 'round' in parts of those it was a hollow shape rather than over the back into a proper connection) and he would also need to learn to become laterally supple and responsive to more refined aids & questions. I also thought he looked a bit uncomfortable in his mouth at times in those, which doesn't seem to be an issue at the moment.

I don't think James is doing anything detrimental to his horse.  I don't think he's trying to make him into a GP or high school horse. I think he just needs to get the horse established to the point where he is accepting of the rider in the school work, so that J can then get back on and continue himself.  

As I said last night, to my mind Virginie has gone quite some way towards getting that acceptance.  (putting aside whatever happened in the 12 months between videos... and remembering the horse that she first sat on, since that was *her* starting point, not the horse in the other videos.  None of us have a time machine... nice as that would be... and she can't undo the horse's history, just patch it and build on it as best as she can)


& by patch I don't mean bodge it. I mean she can't *make* him unlearn things or experiences. All she can do it try to mend it in her own way.  That's all any of us can do, even if a horse is re-started, you are often gently battling against what it learnt the first time round :wink3:
		
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This^^^

Very well put.


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## Caol Ila (2 August 2013)

Don't get me wrong, Armas is a lovely horse and I like him a lot and he is a good horse for what James wants.  But that stud turns out some SERIOUSLY nice horses.  I'll take this one, please: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lojz1MvAAKg

James' horse isn't quite of the same calibre as that one.  I have no doubt that the stud knew this.  It's okay.  My horse is nowhere near as nice as that, either, but I'm not asking her for passage and canter pirouettes.  The trainer is improving Armas' carriage, but the way she is going about it makes me ask, "At what cost?"


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## Paint Me Proud (2 August 2013)

I have watched a couple of your videos but never posted before.

However, I did just go on your youtube account and look back at how Armas was when you first had him.

This video - from 10 months ago- IMO shows a green horse but one with spirit 

[youtube]JAyZURYxvGM[/youtube]

But in your recent videos his spark seems to have gone.

I'm not going to comment on the trainer, training methods, lameness etc just purely on the impression I get of Armas, just think he has lost a little bit of his sparkle under saddle. Hopefully it will return


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## ShadowHunter (2 August 2013)

Its a pleasure to watch those earlier video's. Armas looks like a different horse. Yes, there are some problems but all round he looks better. What happened in the 12 months since James?


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## Spring Feather (2 August 2013)

Paint Me Proud said:



			This video - from 10 months ago- IMO shows a green horse but one with spirit
		
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Anyone know who's riding him in that video?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (2 August 2013)

milliepops said:



			Well.. in I go again :wink3: with a post long enough to rival one of GG's  but I thought there were a lot of very positive moments during this session.  The working trot and canter is looking possibly the best it has so far under saddle. He is beginning to look as relaxed and through as he does on the long reins now which is lovely. And so nice to see him returning to that open frame each time as his 'rest' position after doing some harder work.

For me, this session really highlighted where I think this rider has picked up from where David left off. At the end of the BB videos I felt the horse was allowing himself to be steered and the pace walk/trot/canter to be selected, but not a lot more.  Where I think this rider has really succeeded is changing the horse's attitude slightly to the point where he is now allowing himself to be *ridden* much more - big steps, small steps, sideways, forward, back - it all looks a lot more accepting. That's quite a big change for me, and an important one because even the basics can't be improved until the horse lets the rider 'in'.  

I don't know her intentions, clearly, but using passagey steps and half steps is a good trick in this case because it's something he's found easy almost immediately. So he has quickly learnt to wait but still keep working as she asks him to maintain the activity.  Sure, they are not test quality, nor do I believe that is what she is aiming for. But a useful tool to show the horse that he doesn't have to run away from the leg. Something which can then be applied to other work. A roundabout way of achieving that, but it looks like the penny is dropping.

I can also maybe see the logic behind the rather fast trot afterwards. He's probably not a horse that will find extensions easy in the trot. Where she has kept the pressure on in previous sessions while he worked out how to produce those passagey steps, so it could also happen that if he is asked to keep trotting forward into a contact, eventually he may twig and instead of rushing he could begin to push more.  
I only mention it because it has been something that has helped my horse to understand what is needed. On a hack, extensions come very easy but in the school she has a mental block. No amount of transitions, lateral work, all the usual prep for extending really made a difference - she needed to run until she pulled into the reins and pushed with her hind legs. not pretty, not classical, but it was how she learnt.

On the subject of showing a horse something in a different way, I thought the running reins were reasonably successful. he did not appear confused or overfaced by them after the first couple of minutes.

re. the walk. I think a chiro visit will be well timed. But the right hind issue is still more apparent when he is not accepting the aids she is giving. When he does, it is much, much less glaring.  It looked like baby walk pirouettes that she was working on before each canter transition. To be fair, they haven't done a lot of work on the walk together so he is finding that a difficult question - to allow his body to be placed where she is asking, while still remaining soft and accepting.  She's said before that he wants to step out, rather than under with that hind leg  and it's not uncommon for the steps to become irregular at that point. (not desirable, but given his history not unexpected either :wink3.
		
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this and its something we had to do with bruce and to a lesser degree fig-push forward forward forward until the running comes over the back in to the hand and becomes a push through to the contact and gains cadence an not just a flat run.


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## splashnutti1 (2 August 2013)

Paint Me Proud said:



			I have watched a couple of your videos but never posted before.

However, I did just go on your youtube account and look back at how Armas was when you first had him.

This video - from 10 months ago- IMO shows a green horse but one with spirit 

[youtube]JAyZURYxvGM[/youtube]

But in your recent videos his spark seems to have gone.

I'm not going to comment on the trainer, training methods, lameness etc just purely on the impression I get of Armas, just think he has lost a little bit of his sparkle under saddle. Hopefully it will return 

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^^ this^^ I to have lurked but never posted and agree he has lost his sparkle. He seems much more content in the first videos and in the video posted of him being ridden in spain.

However i do agree he doesnt seem right behind? x


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## Spring Feather (2 August 2013)

splashnutti1 said:



			However i do agree he doesnt seem right behind? x
		
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He doesn't look 100% to me in the very first video.  The one taken when he was at the sales yard.


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## PolarSkye (2 August 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			He doesn't look 100% to me in the very first video.  The one taken when he was at the sales yard.
		
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I'm afraid I agree . . . and, no, I am not a vet .

P


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## risky business (2 August 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			I am happy to assure you that I am definitely not D-D....Just ask James and he will also assure you .
		
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Tbh FF all you look like is a silly person who seems to have a bit of crush..

I mean why else would you seek out James' threads then write pointless dribble which you know James will react to giving you that attention you seem to be craving..  

Nothing you say is constructive or even well written.. I can only assume the above..


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## splashnutti1 (2 August 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			He doesn't look 100% to me in the very first video. The one taken when he was at the sales yard.
		
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^^agreed^^ Just doesnt look comfortable behind and under tracks on the right rein, seems really stiff.? 

lovely horse though


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## Sussexbythesea (2 August 2013)

_GG_ said:



			Well, if he has a friend in me, I have been pretty damn hard on him throughout all the threads. I think most have just been objective. 

I understand your point about the horses potential, but I don't personally have a problem in a horse like this being trained enough to make him strong enough for some low level dressage and equitation which is the aim. Also, even a happy hacker, if it is indeed going to be happy, needs to be comfortable and strong enough to hack. The issues this horse has with the weakhoolness need working on to overcome. To just hack and enjoy him as it is would be to willingly allow him to always have a weakness, short of making hacking a job that would do the work outside of the school.

Better to do some work and have a happy, healthy and strong horse at the end than not do the work and leave the horse to have a long term issue. 

That's just my opinion of course and I wouldn't approach it the same way as this trainer, but I don't think she's doing too bad a job tbf.
		
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I'm afraid I can't agree with you here. If you want a horse suitable for a novice rider to do low-level comps and hacking you don't get a professional rider to whizz him up and perform high-level movements. My own trainer has said to me many a time that I wouldn't like to ride the horse she would produce because he would be way more sensitive than I could deal with. I have mostly been able to work with my trainers myself to work my SI horse through his issues at a pace both of us can cope with. I have had at times a professional ride him with my needs in mind and to help address weaknesses as she is less emotional about it and more correct than I could be. However if she rode him every day like that for more than a couple of weeks or even less he simply wouldn't be able to cope and I would have a sore or lame horse on my hands.


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## blitznbobs (2 August 2013)

i am sure this is in one of these ever increasing threads but what is the goal with this horse? is this training for trainings sake or do you want to compete?


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## Amymay (2 August 2013)

sussexbythesea said:



			I'm afraid I can't agree with you here. If you want a horse suitable for a novice rider to do low-level comps and hacking you don't get a professional rider to whizz him up and perform high-level movements.
		
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Oh I don't agree at all.  I've always had the best trainers I could afford, and the best riders on my horses that I could afford to help me with schooling etc.

Nothing has ever given me greater pleasure than seeing my common little cob half passing across the school, ridden by an international gp rider.  Did it mean I suddenly couldn't ride one side of her?  Of course not.


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## MotherOfChickens (2 August 2013)

is Forest Fox the forum user formerly known as Feu Folet?


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## Spring Feather (2 August 2013)

sussexbythesea said:



			I'm afraid I can't agree with you here. If you want a horse suitable for a novice rider to do low-level comps and hacking you don't get a professional rider to whizz him up and perform high-level movements. My own trainer has said to me many a time that I wouldn't like to ride the horse she would produce because he would be way more sensitive than I could deal with. I have mostly been able to work with my trainers myself to work my SI horse through his issues at a pace both of us can cope with. I have had at times a professional ride him with my needs in mind and to help address weaknesses as she is less emotional about it and more correct than I could be. However if she rode him every day like that for more than a couple of weeks or even less he simply wouldn't be able to cope and I would have a sore or lame horse on my hands.
		
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I agree 100% with you which is why when I back and produce horses for the local sales market where I live, I never produce them beyond the skills of the average local rider.  If it did, I'd never bloomin sell anything lol!  Where I live, most people are lower level (novice) happy hackers and as such this is what I produce in my selling riding horses.  I choose my bloodlines carefully and they usually run true to form in that they are very forgiving and pliable animals who are easy going enough for beginners to muff around on, without those riders getting themselves into trouble.  Those buyers don't need something that is beyond their capabilities, they need good steady reliable horses who will look after them.  Occasionally I have an odd-ball who is no-way going to be suitable for the local market, they would not be happy in that type of environment, so I generally keep them for myself (which is part of the reason I own so many extra horses *sigh*)


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## _GG_ (2 August 2013)

The past is the past. We can use it to help us shape the future through maybe gaining a little understanding, but other than that, dragging it up serves no purpose. 

I will always try to be honest and objective in my posts. It is nice to see a younger and greener horse in the videos, but there is nothing wrong in wanting this horse to do a bit more. All James wants is to do low level stuff and IMO it is far better that an owner try to ensure his horse works correctly in order to ensure health and wellbeing, than to just allow a horse to just carry on carrying a rider on its back, not with the whole rounded frame. 

So...I cannot condemn James for using trainers to try and help the horse work properly. He is capable of it, we can see that if we watch the videos closely. He is not currently capable of maintaining it for long periods. He is not an unhappy horse. To be honest...and I risk getting flamed here, but the older videos show a much less confident horse. I think it's important not to confuse concentration with boredom or unhappiness. In the recent training videos, what is being seen as an unhappy horse, is, IMHO just a horse that is concentrating on the rider. I see this as a good thing. It shows an acceptance of this trainer that wasn't there 17 sessions ago. 

Again on the "happy" vein...it can be as soon as within one stressful training session that a horse can show the signs of foreboding/depression/oppression. These signs can usually (caveat being there are always exceptions) be seen in the horse no matter what it is doing. 
In an early early video thread, I commented that I believed we would see it in the horse outside of the arena if he became unhappy. Horses that are really being pushed beyond what they are capable of tend to have mental breakdowns and show the signs listed above. 

What I see in the horse that is shown playing at home is a carefree horse with not a worry in the world. 
Over and above that...in the actual training sessions being posted, I do not see an unhappy horse. I believe this because I see a horse that is relaxed and chilled out in the warm up. Relaxed and chilled out in the breaks he gets and relaxed and chilled out at the end when the trainer is giving her comments at the end. 

Over and above that still...in earlier videos, when the trainer stood next to Armas, he would just stand. Now, in more recent videos, he tries to interact with her. He is more animated in his expressions and this to me shows signs of anything BUT unhappiness. 

We may or may not agree with things that are happening or being done, but I see little point in looking to the past. I see more benefit being sent the horses way by concentrating on where he goes from here. 

I would like to see him get a decent break soon. A good month of just hacking and relaxing away from the school. I have a number of reasons for this. One is that I would like to see him gain a little condition...general condition through good old fashioned hill work. One is that I think that mentally, he would really benefit from being turned away from the training for a short period. He has undergone what is not much different to being broken in. He has had to adjust to a whole new way of being trained and a break can be extremely beneficial. Lastly, I think James could do with a break from slaving away at youtube....lol.

Anyway, my thoughts FWTW


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## Armas (2 August 2013)

ester said:



			I'm bored, but from interest when Armas was new.. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSVtRdLC-10
and 3 weeks later:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEGz2maCXCk

no noseband, not particulary BTV in the work.. 

Vids also show training with this lady (from old posts the one that you had early on who had been to cadre noir that Armas went to for a couple of months when he first arrived? or someone else?)
Virginie = a friend who rode a couple of times when he arrived and a friend who I hack with
young jumping lad = My old French trainers son who likes to jump and has entered two competitions in the past.
David = From Sapin
Pascual = A friend who I tried out a couple of times as he trains & owns 15 Iberian horses. I liked his ground work but not ridden work. Hence discounted him as a trainer on the advice of did cortez and Amaranta.
current lady
oh and team baringer? Two friends whose Arena I have use.

It does seem like a lot of different training/riding styles in a year.
		
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In the last year and a half I have had 1 trainer & his wife and David.
I occasionally allow friends to ride.

I take it non of your friends ever ride your horses?


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## _GG_ (2 August 2013)

sussexbythesea said:



			I'm afraid I can't agree with you here. If you want a horse suitable for a novice rider to do low-level comps and hacking you don't get a professional rider to whizz him up and perform high-level movements. My own trainer has said to me many a time that I wouldn't like to ride the horse she would produce because he would be way more sensitive than I could deal with. I have mostly been able to work with my trainers myself to work my SI horse through his issues at a pace both of us can cope with. I have had at times a professional ride him with my needs in mind and to help address weaknesses as she is less emotional about it and more correct than I could be. However if she rode him every day like that for more than a couple of weeks or even less he simply wouldn't be able to cope and I would have a sore or lame horse on my hands.
		
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I am thinking perhaps you have merged someone elses views in with mine. I didn't mention in that post anything about high-level movements, my point was simply about making a horse strong enough for low level work. I can't repeat myself in every post I make and as most people are keeping up with these threads, don't feel the need to as most will know what has been said before. If you haven't seen any of my previous posts, then that may be where you are not agreeing. 

To clarify, I didn't agree with the choice of this trainer, I have said many times I don't agree with the collected work or intensity. In fact I have said that what I would do myself with the horse would be completely different. 

I have also said, only a few pages ago that I agree that there is a concern that this horse will end up trained beyond James' abilities. 

That said, he is due to be having lessons on Armas from this trainer eventually so it is something he himself seems to be aware of.

This isn't a defensive post...I actually agree with you. Just clarifying that whilst you disagreed with my post...I think the disagreement was based not on all of the things I have said...but of course, if you hadn't read them you wouldn't know that...if that makes sense.

Crikey...I've even confuddled myself now!!!


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## PolarSkye (2 August 2013)

Armas said:



			I take it non of your friends ever ride your horses?
		
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Actually, no they don't . . . because Kali (I suspect like Armas) is sensitive and doesn't like all and sundry on his back.  If I want a sane and happy horse (and don't want the jockey to be on the floor!), I'm better off limiting Kal's jockeys to me and Z (the woman who competes him).  We have worked out that even having our trainer on him is a bad idea . . . it's just too many different bottoms/riding styles and is massively counter-productive.

Plus, I would much rather our trainer taught Z and me to ride him, rather than sitting on him herself.  She can tell enough about him from handling him on the yard (she and I do each other's horses) and from observing him in the arena/at competitions.  She HAS sat on him - twice - but he didn't like it so we won't be doing that again.

Honestly, J, I do think Armas would benefit from a simpler life - if only for a little while.  Re-watching the videos from last year were a real eye-opener for me . . . I hadn't appreciated how much he has changed - and not always for the better.  I really encourage you to take a step back, revisit your original goals and think hard about what you want for him and you . . . 

P


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## Sussexbythesea (2 August 2013)

amymay said:



			Oh I don't agree at all.  I've always had the best trainers I could afford, and the best riders on my horses that I could afford to help me with schooling etc.

Nothing has ever given me greater pleasure than seeing my common little cob half passing across the school, ridden by an international gp rider.  Did it mean I suddenly couldn't ride one side of her?  Of course not.
		
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Well maybe a hot or warm-blooded horses are different to common cobs? 

I'd love to see you on your cob - do show us.


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## PolarSkye (2 August 2013)

Deleted.


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## splashnutti1 (2 August 2013)

i to wouldnt allow anyone else other than me and my sister to ride my horse he is young and easily upset, i prefer to have lessons myself than allow a trainer to ride my lad.

also as an instructor myself i dont generally ride my clients horses unless specifically asked to and i always advise one to one wherever possible especially with young or sensitive horses.

however my friend lest everyone ride her horse who is old and wise and she has no problems but he is most definately not snesitive and used to be in a riding school so is used to it lol 

so each to their own, its down to personal preference at the end of the day


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## splashnutti1 (2 August 2013)

sussexbythesea said:



			Well maybe a hot or warm-blooded horses are different to common cobs? 

I'd love to see you on your cob - do show us.
		
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bit uncalled for lol? my neighbour has someone ride her cob who can perform all the dressage movements she loves to watch him, however she is quite capable of riding him herself and competes him regularly with success?


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## Amymay (2 August 2013)

sussexbythesea said:



			Well maybe a hot or warm-blooded horses are different to common cobs? 

I'd love to see you on your cob - do show us.
		
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Yes, a hot horse I would agree.  Warm blood no (they're usually as dopy as a cob).


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## Amymay (2 August 2013)

Goingforgold said:



			Disagree as a lot of warmbloods have a lot of TB blood in them now. You cannot really generalize a horses temperament just by its breeding.
		
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True, and of course i generalised cobs first.  But I think you get my meaning.

Essentially, there's nothing wrong with wanting your horse to be as well schooled as possible - even if it means you yourself can't ride it to that specific level.  And providing it doesn't interfere with what you want to do with them I don't see the harm (who would?)  I would never discourage an owner for enjoying riding or having their horse ridden to a higher level than generally required.


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## Sussexbythesea (2 August 2013)

splashnutti1 said:



			bit uncalled for lol? my neighbour has someone ride her cob who can perform all the dressage movements she loves to watch him, however she is quite capable of riding him herself and competes him regularly with success?
		
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Amymay called her own horse a "common cob" I should have put it in quotes to prevent any misunderstanding that I think cobs are inferior in any way because I sincerely do not.


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## Auslander (2 August 2013)

Goingforgold said:



			I agree, and in fact i received a private message off someone saying just that. .
		
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I could be completely wrong here, but I suspect I know where the suspicion came from! 
Something I said elsewhere was copied and pasted verbatim on here. I did not suggest or intend it to happen, but once I (or anyone for that matter) have posted something on the internet, I have no control over whether someone chooses to use it. 
I am guilty of speaking to James off this forum - hands up...as are several others, all of whom are trying to help him.


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## Sussexbythesea (2 August 2013)

amymay said:



			True, and of course i generalised cobs first.  But I think you get my meaning.

Essentially, there's nothing wrong with wanting your horse to be as well schooled as possible - even if it means you yourself can't ride it to that specific level.  And providing it doesn't interfere with what you want to do with them I don't see the harm (who would?)  I would never discourage an owner for enjoying riding or having their horse ridden to a higher level than generally required.
		
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Neither would I but a horse schooled to the sensitivity required for high-level dressage generally will be much more sensitive to any aid deliberate or accidental and to rider balance. Unless of course that it is a "cob"


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## Caol Ila (2 August 2013)

I let my friends sit on my horse, but she is old and wise and not remotely hot.  You're not going to screw her up and she takes her job of keeping people on board very seriously.  

I teach basic dressage to people who are more or less happy hackers in order to help them be happier hackers.  _GG_ is right -- the horse will be more comfortable, the rider will be more comfortable, and hopefully the longevity of the horse as a productive member of equine society will be increased.  We work on straightness, suppleness, and creating a soft, light connection.  There is no need to school passage, half steps, half-pass, pirouettes in order to achieve any of this.   Obviously, these sorts of movements can be great fun and I ride some of them on my horse for no reason other than I can and I enjoy it (we don't compete), but I would not touch them with a bargepole until I felt that the horse was strong enough to do them safely.


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## TheSylv007 (2 August 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			There would have been no way that ARMAS would have been sold to a novice unless he was a reject.
Just take a look at the Stud info....
		
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Well that's just lovely isn't it?


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## Amymay (2 August 2013)

sussexbythesea said:



			Neither would I but a horse schooled to the sensitivity required for high-level dressage generally will be much more sensitive to any aid deliberate or accidental and to rider balance. Unless of course that it is a "cob"  

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I heard a lovely story many years ago from a woman who used to compete at a very high level in dressage.  The horse was retired from competition, and lent to the Master of the local hunt.    Apparently it was very amusing to see the horse doing all his tricks (as the Master called them) across the hunting field.  Once the correct buttons were found however, he went on to hunt hounds at the front for many years (with only the occasional high school movement chucked in for everyone's entertainment ).


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## Purple18 (2 August 2013)

when James starts to ride Armas is the trainer going to video him ? like he is videoing her ? I would have preferred to see more riding by James in the school with the trainer teaching because   I'm guessing the aim is to get James riding in school in the same way she is ? without James knowing what to do it's seems like a pretty pointless exercise. If she'll leave and James still has no clue what to do. it's one thing a trainer doing it but it's a whole different ball game doing it yourself.


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## Goldenstar (2 August 2013)

Quite a lot of people ride my horses , 
Both my grooms my ex groom who comes because she likes to ride my friend who has parted with her horse and wants to keep going.
My friend who is a strong and compentant rider who does fast and exciting stuff with me and starts the horses at the hounds .
One of my horses is a very sharp kwpn but my friends can all hack him because he's kind and knows the score he will do a bit in the school with them too but I prefer to there when they do this.
Only I train my horses although my friend has no horses now gets shouted at riding my driving  horse because she enjoys it hes fun schooled to elementary and loves giving her lessons.
I believe it is possible for a horse with a nice nature to be ridden by several people and I don't see anything in Armas to make me think that he could not be enjoyed by his owner and trained as long as his trainer keeps this in the back of her mind .
I don't think J means to turn Armas in a high level mega sharp grand prix competition horse I thought ( I may be wrong ) that he wants a well trained fun horse to enjoy and is enjoying everything that's done with the horse and enjoying the journey as it goes along.
I don't see Armas as super sharp will he use his training to dump James ? I would be amazed if he did because he's a kind horse ,will he  go for James exactly as he does for the trainer no .
But I see no reason why he can't do both after all it's his job.


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## Amaranta (2 August 2013)

Paint Me Proud said:



			I have watched a couple of your videos but never posted before.

However, I did just go on your youtube account and look back at how Armas was when you first had him.

This video - from 10 months ago- IMO shows a green horse but one with spirit 

[youtube]JAyZURYxvGM[/youtube]

But in your recent videos his spark seems to have gone.

I'm not going to comment on the trainer, training methods, lameness etc just purely on the impression I get of Armas, just think he has lost a little bit of his sparkle under saddle. Hopefully it will return 

Click to expand...


Well I have to disagree, I see a horse hollowing through his back, fussing in the contact and also, at times, coming behind the vertical, and at others above, there is a muscle under his neck that would only get worse if he had continued to be ridden in that way.  There is a lot of poll twisting and throwing of the right shoulder too.  The rider's hands are awful and move about continually and she also is incapable of feeling that the horse is not straight.  The shoulder in (or was it a leg yield - so bad it was difficult to tell!) was completely incorrect and the quarters were in the next county.  

I also believe that there was an issue in the SI BEFORE James had him and I have told James this, if you look at the videos of him at the sales yard, he moves very wide behind and refuses to strike off on the correct canter lead, nothing James has done has caused it and, as I have already said, although I do not like everything about Virginie (would still like to see him long and low for much longer), she is at least balanced in the saddle and is not responsible for this horse going BTV.

PRE's when asked to take a contact often respond by going BTV, this horse is a prime example, this is why they respond better to leg and seat rather than hand.


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## Armas (2 August 2013)

Do most of the owners of race horses ride or compete there horses ? I am sure that there are many equestrian sports where the trainer rider and owner are all different.
If I want to train my horses to a good standard and watch him compete because I enjoy it so what. I have lots of fun riding Armas my self I love taking lessons.
What about people that share there horses what happens if the sharer brings on the horse to a higher ability than the owner?? Armas is a very gentle horse I hack him out on occasion with out a saddle my friends daughter jumps a little with him bareback just for fun. 
He is a happy content horse that has a good life, in comparison to the life he had in Spain and in comparison to many of the 1000s of horses going to slaughter.


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## Armas (2 August 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Well I have to disagree, I see a horse hollowing through his back, fussing in the contact and also, at times, coming behind the vertical, and at others above, there is a muscle under his neck that would only get worse if he had continued to be ridden in that way.  There is a lot of poll twisting and throwing of the right shoulder too.  The rider's hands are awful and move about continually and she also is incapable of feeling that the horse is not straight.  The shoulder in (or was it a leg yield - so bad it was difficult to tell!) was completely incorrect and the quarters were in the next county.  

I also believe that there was an issue in the SI BEFORE James had him and I have told James this, if you look at the videos of him at the sales yard, he moves very wide behind and refuses to strike off on the correct canter lead, nothing James has done has caused it and, as I have already said, although I do not like everything about Virginie (would still like to see him long and low for much longer), she is at least balanced in the saddle and is not responsible for this horse going BTV.

PRE's when asked to take a contact often respond by going BTV, this horse is a prime example, this is why they respond better to leg and seat rather than hand.
		
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Not a trainer just a friend whose arena I use. She rode him once as she had never ridden a Spanish horse.


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## Sussexbythesea (2 August 2013)

_GG_ said:



			I am thinking perhaps you have merged someone elses views in with mine. I didn't mention in that post anything about high-level movements, my point was simply about making a horse strong enough for low level work. I can't repeat myself in every post I make and as most people are keeping up with these threads, don't feel the need to as most will know what has been said before. If you haven't seen any of my previous posts, then that may be where you are not agreeing. 

To clarify, I didn't agree with the choice of this trainer, I have said many times I don't agree with the collected work or intensity. In fact I have said that what I would do myself with the horse would be completely different. 

I have also said, only a few pages ago that I agree that there is a concern that this horse will end up trained beyond James' abilities. 

That said, he is due to be having lessons on Armas from this trainer eventually so it is something he himself seems to be aware of.

This isn't a defensive post...I actually agree with you. Just clarifying that whilst you disagreed with my post...I think the disagreement was based not on all of the things I have said...but of course, if you hadn't read them you wouldn't know that...if that makes sense.

Crikey...I've even confuddled myself now!!!
		
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Me too   I think I was referring to this particular trainer as she is doing higher level stuff that is inappropriate in my view and missed where you said you were not in favour of this particular trainers approach. My apologies  

I think an James should invite over a HHO Crack team of professionals - trainers, farrier, chiro, physio, vet in exchange for a nice holiday in his lovely Chateau


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## ester (2 August 2013)

Armas I was only listing re the youtube vids to try and work out how Armas had got from how he was after arriving at you (indicating that the spanish riding did not have him btv) to how he is today and therefore who had been involved. I also stumbled across an old thread of yours from June last year while looking for something else which said about the 2 months training for you and him when he arrived and I realised I had forgotten about that - and it just made me wonder why, when you posted that that rider suited him so well then we had moved on to different trainers- I had actually forgotten what he looked like then but did not remember him being btv in the video where you tried him. 

I'm all for horses being trained to use their back's properly so they are doing less damage to themselves when being ridden- I know that my older chap is certainly more supple/better/more comfortable when in a certain amount of schooling work rather than just hacking- I am interested to see if that is achieved at the end of all this. 

Fwiw yup anyone can ride mine!  He has a local fan club and everyone knows they are welcome to have a hack, including a collection of grandchildren from the bungalows next to our field. But, although he isn't hot and doesn't come across at particularly sensitive (probably more than I immediately think of him as though due to the welshness) when we were competing/trying to progress in dressage/jumping he was only ridden by myself or my instructor so as not to muddy the waters/confuse the issue - as I wanted him to know my aids (they aren't 'incorrect' but likely subtley different to other's) and trainer would usually only ride him when we were particularly struggling with something and she was more able to explain it to him and then teach me how- this is where I think what you are doing is very different and as I have said before I struggle to get my head round it. 

Now he is more frequently ridden by my mum and my sister, and has acted as a bit of a dressage schoolmaster for both- it's taken them a while to find all the buttons and quite how to press them  but they are there .


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## splashnutti1 (2 August 2013)

sussexbythesea said:



			Amymay called her own horse a "common cob" I should have put it in quotes to prevent any misunderstanding that I think cobs are inferior in any way because I sincerely do not. 

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 lol


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## splashnutti1 (2 August 2013)

amymay said:



			I heard a lovely story many years ago from a woman who used to compete at a very high level in dressage. The horse was retired from competition, and lent to the Master of the local hunt. Apparently it was very amusing to see the horse doing all his tricks (as the Master called them) across the hunting field. Once the correct buttons were found however, he went on to hunt hounds at the front for many years (with only the occasional high school movement chucked in for everyone's entertainment ).
		
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lol must have been amusing to see


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## Amaranta (2 August 2013)

Armas said:



			Not a trainer just a friend whose arena I use. She rode him once as she had never ridden a Spanish horse.
		
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Ahh ok, what I was really doing was pointing out the nuances to those that felt he was going better then than he is now.  He was not.


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## Caol Ila (2 August 2013)

Goingforgold said:



			Your knowledge of PRE's shines through. I hope James is reading.
		
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Er... cheers.  But I've never ridden a PRE in my life.  Would love to own one and might go that way for the next horse, but she most definitely is not: 
	
	
		
		
	


	





It's just horses in general, really, that I apply everything I wrote about above to.  Any horse.  I did have a classical trainer for a while, back in the US, and I know the people she learned from with were into Iberians.


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## ester (2 August 2013)

but Armas on a previous thread you said you wanted to do dressage on him and equitation?? Now you want to be an 'owner'??

If I wanted to have a horse to compete under others I would not have selected Armas and likely taken said rider to help me choose, the same as I would not have chosen Frank even though he would likely have done better under someone other than me. 

there were a few posts while I was typing! Like Caol Ila I cannot see that the more advanced work is necessary for correct/strong back/straight working. 

If he hasn't seen the vet recently I would get one to see him, under saddle, see what is said/recommended and go from there, possibly giving him a break if indicated.


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## blitznbobs (2 August 2013)

its utter rubbish that a gp horse is too sensitive for anyone to ride. my gp horse was as safe as houses i put complete novices on him but his canter pirouettes were so good that stephen clarke used to borrow him for demos... 

it totally depends on the horse - not the training...


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## Paint Me Proud (2 August 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Well I have to disagree, I see a horse hollowing through his back, fussing in the contact and also, at times, coming behind the vertical, and at others above, there is a muscle under his neck that would only get worse if he had continued to be ridden in that way.  There is a lot of poll twisting and throwing of the right shoulder too.  The rider's hands are awful and move about continually and she also is incapable of feeling that the horse is not straight.  The shoulder in (or was it a leg yield - so bad it was difficult to tell!) was completely incorrect and the quarters were in the next county.  

I also believe that there was an issue in the SI BEFORE James had him and I have told James this, if you look at the videos of him at the sales yard, he moves very wide behind and refuses to strike off on the correct canter lead, nothing James has done has caused it and, as I have already said, although I do not like everything about Virginie (would still like to see him long and low for much longer), she is at least balanced in the saddle and is not responsible for this horse going BTV.

PRE's when asked to take a contact often respond by going BTV, this horse is a prime example, this is why they respond better to leg and seat rather than hand.
		
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Ah you misinterpret. I wasnt saying Armas was being ridden better, or working better in that video, just that he seemed to have more spirit, more life in him. If that makes sense


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## Caol Ila (2 August 2013)

She is a massive weenie about the clegg flies so that's what I've had to do in order to hack out.


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## DressageCob (2 August 2013)

I may be being dim but I'm a bit confuzzled. In the very first thread in this recent string the comment was, either from Armas or his 'team' (for want of a better word) that this was an incredibly hot horse who is not easy to ride. I don't see how that can be reconciled with today's view that he is a gentle horse who many people can ride including a young girl who jumps bareback.

So I'm confused.

I'm also in agreement that today looks better than others but not ideal. I just don't think this rider has quite got the PRE brain (not to be confused with PEA brain ) dissed yet. 

I also think he needs more muscle before he can properly perform as he's being asked to do. It's been said that he is weak behind- that seems to be accepted. What I don't get is that since owner and trainer have that knowledge, why isn't that being worked on instead of these more strenuous movements? Some hill work would be great for that. He could still be schooled in addition, but more basic transitions, simple movements and so forth to get him to engage his back more and build up, rather than jumping into passage.


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## Sussexbythesea (2 August 2013)

blitznbobs said:



			its utter rubbish that a gp horse is too sensitive for anyone to ride. my gp horse was as safe as houses i put complete novices on him but his canter pirouettes were so good that stephen clarke used to borrow him for demos... 

it totally depends on the horse - not the training...
		
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Yes I'm sure any one of us could have a crack at riding one of the top GP horses without any probs - do you think there is a chance of having a go on Valegro?


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## Amymay (2 August 2013)

helenalbert said:



			I may be being dim but I'm a bit confuzzled. In the very first thread in this recent string the comment was, either from Armas or his 'team' (for want of a better word) that this was an incredibly hot horse who is not easy to ride.
		
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I don't think that Armas himself has ever made that comment.  But several others have.


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## Sussexbythesea (2 August 2013)

Sorry that smiley looks completely mad  and doesn't have the tongue in cheek meaning like the old one seemed to


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## Amymay (2 August 2013)

sussexbythesea said:



			Yes I'm sure any one of us could have a crack at riding one of the top GP horses without any probs - do you think there is a chance of having a go on Valegro? 

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Form a que everyone.

But of course it is about the horse, and not just the training.


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## AdorableAlice (2 August 2013)

blitznbobs said:



			its utter rubbish that a gp horse is too sensitive for anyone to ride. my gp horse was as safe as houses i put complete novices on him but his canter pirouettes were so good that stephen clarke used to borrow him for demos... 

it totally depends on the horse - not the training...
		
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Absolutely true.  My now retired competition horse, competed at a high level dressage, he turned his hoof to showing aged 13, placed at HOYs two years running along with many county championships.  He had more buttons than this computer, but the judges loved him, always commenting on his lightness, balance and willingness.

He was schooled and competed by one rider and adored his rider, but on only one occasion did he object to a hunter ride judge.  He must have been ridden by way over 100 hundred different people.  He is a beautifully bred Selle Francias and yes he is a sensitive soul and certainly not a mugs ride, but schooling, manners and genuineness ensured his success.

The day it went wrong, at the Hunter Nationals at Addington, a lady ride judge tried to send him out of the line without picking the reins up, he remained stood square waiting for correct instructions, the stupid woman gave him a pony club kick still with no contact, he shot off, tripped up and nearly put her over his head.  She grabbed the curb and he took off with her.  Off course he was sent out.

Personally, and within reason, I think horses should get used to different riders as part of their education and to give them every chance of being useful in their futures.


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## ester (2 August 2013)

I wonder if there is a difference between different people riding them and different people trying to improve them though AA?

E's ponderings on a quiet afternoon
Donut anyone? we have spares


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## Amymay (2 August 2013)

ester said:



			Donut anyone? we have spares 

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Me please.  I'm starving.


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## Caol Ila (2 August 2013)

When will those 3D printers start printing doughnuts?


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## Amymay (2 August 2013)

Goingforgold said:



			I do like threads that offer food. 

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I have liquorice non, nom.


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## ester (2 August 2013)

we only have the proper type


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## Toast (2 August 2013)

Another day, another video...same lame, unhappy Armas!
James, I'm not entirely sure what your trying to achieve but this poor horse is bored to tears.  Having watched the original video at the beginning of this thread, and the other one posted by Paint Me Proud, it's like watching two different horses. It's sad that he is so blatantly sour and yet you just keep pushing for more more more more.
Get a vet to that hind lameness issue, sack off that bird who's riding him and give him some time off or hack him out for six months. Adorable Alice had it in one.


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## Purple18 (2 August 2013)

session 18 will soon be on the way just seen it on facebook I'll leave my views for the new thread...


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## AdorableAlice (2 August 2013)

ester said:



			I wonder if there is a difference between different people riding them and different people trying to improve them though AA?

E's ponderings on a quiet afternoon
Donut anyone? we have spares 

Click to expand...

Good point Ester, as an owner you do need to be able to access what is going on.

I was by far the worst rider my horse ever experienced.  I was far too fat, unfit and unbalanced to get a real tune from him.  I owned ID's for years before buying him.  The ID's always gave me that 'leave it to me mum, I will get you out of this xxx you have put me in' attitude.  I realised he needed a decent rider after a funny incident in a novice class a few months after I bought him,  He trotted down the long side and hopped over the boards out of the arena.  My instructor asked me why I did not ask the horse to turn left.  I reasoned I did not need to, my ID knew where he was going and so should the new horse ! 

I put a dear and very dedicated friend on the horse and we never looked back and I have bought a cob and bred myself another ID, they will make decisions for me and forgive my uselessness.

Donut please.


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## Goldenstar (2 August 2013)

ester said:



			I wonder if there is a difference between different people riding them and different people trying to improve them though AA?

E's ponderings on a quiet afternoon
Donut anyone? we have spares 

Click to expand...

That's the nub of it only I work to improve my horses or the others will work on things while I am watching .
However I thinks it perfectly possible for different people to work to improve a horse in dressage for example a rider on a yard may have a talent for say teaching the changes then then they may do that with horses ridden more by other people but in that situation it's likely that all the riders will be working along the same lines.
Ps I had better stay off the donuts ATM but thanks.


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## AdorableAlice (2 August 2013)

Purple18 said:



			session 18 will soon be on the way just seen it on facebook I'll leave my views for the new thread...
		
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Surely the horse is due a day off, or a hack in some cool forestry ?


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## AdorableAlice (2 August 2013)

Toast said:



			Another day, another video...same lame, unhappy Armas!
James, I'm not entirely sure what your trying to achieve but this poor horse is bored to tears.  Having watched the original video at the beginning of this thread, and the other one posted by Paint Me Proud, it's like watching two different horses. It's sad that he is so blatantly sour and yet you just keep pushing for more more more more.
Get a vet to that hind lameness issue, sack off that bird who's riding him and give him some time off or hack him out for six months. Adorable Alice had it in one.
		
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Thank you - I normally talk total rubbish !


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## Goldenstar (2 August 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			Good point Ester, as an owner you do need to be able to access what is going on.

I was by far the worst rider my horse ever experienced.  I was far too fat, unfit and unbalanced to get a real tune from him.  I owned ID's for years before buying him.  The ID's always gave me that 'leave it to me mum, I will get you out of this xxx you have put me in' attitude.  I realised he needed a decent rider after a funny incident in a novice class a few months after I bought him,  He trotted down the long side and hopped over the boards out of the arena.  My instructor asked me why I did not ask the horse to turn left.  I reasoned I did not need to, my ID knew where he was going and so should the new horse ! 

I put a dear and very dedicated friend on the horse and we never looked back and I have bought a cob and bred myself another ID, they will make decisions for me and forgive my uselessness.

Donut please.
		
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My OH has a great ID called Fatty not so long ago we put him on my TB because he wanted to feel a TB canter after a few minutes of J trotting up to the walls and stopping I tactfully pointed out that Mr GS needed to steer J  round the corners he looked very confused and sai but I never steer Fatty , it must be an ID thing.


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## MotherOfChickens (2 August 2013)

or is Forest Fox, Farthingwood Fox? *sigh* someone will answer me soo I'm sure.


I don't much care for the riding of this horse but thats by the by really. However, he has lost alot of condition which would worry me.


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## _GG_ (2 August 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			Surely the horse is due a day off, or a hack in some cool forestry ?
		
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Just so you know James doesn't just say things in response and in the interest of fairness...

The session today was not ridden and was very low intensity. 

Tomorrow there is no work. 

Just saying


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## martlin (2 August 2013)

MotherOfChickens said:



			or is Forest Fox, Farthingwood Fox? *sigh* someone will answer me soo I'm sure.
		
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I don't know who Forest Fox IS, but she/he definitely isn't Farthingwood Fox, I am certain of that.


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## MotherOfChickens (2 August 2013)

fair enough


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## ester (2 August 2013)

A few more for those with less troublesome waistlines 

http://theenglishbaker.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/jam-doughnuts.jpg


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## _GG_ (2 August 2013)

ester said:



			A few more for those with less troublesome waistlines 






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Waistlines....what are they?


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## Purple18 (2 August 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			Surely the horse is due a day off, or a hack in some cool forestry ?
		
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supposedly there are days off and hacks by James in-between  the next one is a long reining.

_GG_  I no you say it's wasn't ridden work. but  for me it's not just the physical side it's more the mental side  every horse needs a mental break. From going round in circles either on long reins or ridden

I have to admit after alittle time watching the schooling sessions i'm bored so what Armas is like I don't no


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## _GG_ (2 August 2013)

Purple18 said:



			supposedly there are days off and hacks by James in-between  the next one is a long reining.

_GG_  I no you say it's wasn't ridden work. but  for me it's not just the physical side it's more the mental side  every horse needs a mental break. From going round in circles either on long reins or ridden

I have to admit after alittle time watching the schooling sessions i'm bored so what Armas is like I don't no
		
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I am only commenting on what is happening. My comments on what I would like to happen are a page or two back


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## AdorableAlice (2 August 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			My OH has a great ID called Fatty not so long ago we put him on my TB because he wanted to feel a TB canter after a few minutes of J trotting up to the walls and stopping I tactfully pointed out that Mr GS needed to steer J  round the corners he looked very confused and sai but I never steer Fatty , it must be an ID thing.
		
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Glad it isn't just me then !  I lost my best ID far too early and miss him so much.  He loved big trot and if I did not keep a contact on the outside rein as we met the quarter markers he would shoot across the diagonal in big trot.  He thought he knew all the tests and he eventually got to medium, he liked to guess the next movement to help mum out, who invariably forgot parts of the test on a regular basis.


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## weebarney (2 August 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			Glad it isn't just me then !  I lost my best ID far too early and miss him so much.  He loved big trot and if I did not keep a contact on the outside rein as we met the quarter markers he would shoot across the diagonal in big trot.  He thought he knew all the tests and he eventually got to medium, he liked to guess the next movement to help mum out, who invariably forgot parts of the test on a regular basis.
		
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I need an Irish draft !


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## Copperpot (2 August 2013)

I'm starting to think I need one too. I have one that is 1/8th ID but this is obviously not enough to get the special steering option! I need a full ID.


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## Carefreegirl (2 August 2013)

Copperpot said:



			I'm starting to think I need one too. I have one that is 1/8th ID but this is obviously not enough to get the special steering option! I need a full ID.
		
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How's he meant to know where you want him to go when you've got a fag in one hand and sloe gin in the other ?


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## Goldenstar (2 August 2013)

Copperpot said:



			I'm starting to think I need one too. I have one that is 1/8th ID but this is obviously not enough to get the special steering option! I need a full ID.
		
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It's mportant to remember that the special steering option normally covers only where the ID wants to go I call it common purpose school of training the horse learns what Mr GS wants to do and gets on with it his way ,he sits up top enjoying the scenery.
They have  a great time .
Fatty has Mr GS trained exactly how he likes .


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## Goldenstar (2 August 2013)

Carefreegirl said:



			How's he meant to know where you want him to go when you've got a fag in one hand and sloe gin in the other ?


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Fatty says no problem there I know all the horn calls and when the hounds are running properly so I just get on with it.


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## Purple18 (2 August 2013)

ahh okay 

this from facebook 

James Tuttle I may not post this on H&H as the constant rudeness is rather frustrating.

38 minutes ago · 


:rolleyes3:


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## Mongoose11 (2 August 2013)

Darn it! Not guilty! I have managed at least 24 hours of relative loveliness!

I must say this is all getting a little bit hysterical? I know I've played a part in that...


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## ChestnutTinker (2 August 2013)

'Armas' is leaving??


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## tessybear (2 August 2013)

Whoever posted a picture of doughnuts I hate you  stuck poo picking and I'm starvin' marvin !


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## martlin (2 August 2013)

ooh, oh, I so do love a good game of flounce bingo!


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## Purple18 (2 August 2013)

ChestnutTinker said:



			'Armas' is leaving??
		
Click to expand...

no idea sorry  my guess would be he's just not going to post the sessions for awhile.  I don't understand where the rudeness comment comes from yes we have had some posters saying unnecessary things but most have been helpful posts with concern for the horse a lot focused on the lameness.


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## Fellewell (2 August 2013)

Those are some big doughnuts.

Well OP, if you had any anger management issues I'm sure they are well on the way to being resolved after all this.

I should imagine you were addressing his crookedness when the wheels came off before. She is lighter and doesn't have the muscle power of a man so the chances are she'll get further with the training. He's really starting to trust her.
, I like the way she uses her voice with him. He's probably had a mixture of ridden aids, maybe started with one hand, spurs and seat? her voice helps to clarify things for him. Of course voice aids are penalised in competition (before this is picked up) but I think this boy will know the difference. As for his haunches; in a study of 50 riders (some competitive) on a dressage simulator only 3 out of 50 were symmetrical. I'm sure the delightful Virginie is symmetrical but Armas is not (esp left canter lead). Look forward to hearing about the chiropractor.


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## Marydoll (2 August 2013)

ChestnutTinker said:



			'Armas' is leaving??
		
Click to expand...

Aye right thats never gonna happen lol


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## ChestnutTinker (2 August 2013)

Purple18 said:



			no idea sorry  my guess would be he's just not going to post the sessions for awhile.  I don't understand where the rudeness comment comes from yes we have had some posters saying unnecessary things but most have been helpful posts with concern for the horse a lot focused on the lameness.
		
Click to expand...

It's alright, i'm just a dumb blonde who gets confused easily!


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## Purple18 (2 August 2013)

ChestnutTinker said:



			It's alright, i'm just a dumb blonde who gets confused easily!
		
Click to expand...

lol it is hard to keep up sometimes


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## Copperpot (2 August 2013)

CFG if he was full ID he would know!! Do they come with special breaking option as well? Perhaps I can specify all the options I want when I buy


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## Carefreegirl (2 August 2013)

Copperpot said:



			CFG if he was full ID he would know!! Do they come with special breaking option as well? Perhaps I can specify all the options I want when I buy 

Click to expand...

Yep, you fall off, they stop and look at you ! Simples (well that's what t-bag does but she's a tb)


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## _GG_ (2 August 2013)

Purple18 said:



			ahh okay 

this from facebook 

James Tuttle I may not post this on H&H as the constant rudeness is rather frustrating.

38 minutes ago · 


:rolleyes3:
		
Click to expand...

Purple18...I am sorry, but I think it is highly inappropriate to post someones full name on here without their permission.


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## Amaranta (2 August 2013)

Purple18 said:



			ahh okay 

this from facebook 

James Tuttle I may not post this on H&H as the constant rudeness is rather frustrating.

38 minutes ago · 


:rolleyes3:
		
Click to expand...

strange that you should miss out (or did you remove them????) some words from that sentence

What James actually put was this:

 I may not post this on H&H as the constant rudeness from a minority of posters is rather frustrating.
7 minutes ago · Edited · Like

Was it deliberate?

I am not taking sides here but some people are behaving quite badly, James is no angel and, like I said before, I have been fairly blunt with him in the past, but the way some of you jump on him is bordering on mob mentality:frown3::frown3:


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## AdorableAlice (2 August 2013)

weebarney said:



			I need an Irish draft !
		
Click to expand...

You might not have wanted the one I mentioned.  He was 18.2h and when I showed him (HW hunter) it normally took 2 throws to get the judge on.  I did hunt him, but he wiped me off on plenty of trees, cracked my knees on the hunting gates and if I dared to jump he had so much power he ejected me like some sort of harrier jet.  He also struggled with very steep down hill muddy slopes, god knows why, he used to lock all his legs and slide down, the mess he made looked like a tank had gone down.  I gave up the hunting after he jumped a huge ditch with so much power, he did stay straight and I did meet the saddle on the way down, but my ankle broke as my foot landed back in the iron.  Blooming hospital cut my boot off down the front !!

Now for the poster who wants a fag and sloe gin, my very first ID was the boy.  Only 16.1, I did 22 seasons on him.  Only instructions he needed was go and whoa.  He always checked I was upright and holding his breast plate just before ambling towards a jump.  If he thought the jump was too big for me he would wait until the top was knocked out.  He never stopped out hunting, however he soon learnt that 3 stops early on at a hunter trial allowed him to go home and as for show jumping (I was young in those days) we rarely found the the third fence and I have some fabulous pictures of him tipping me over his head and laughing at me.

I used him at our local RDA group where he was a saint, he taught my then husband to ride and carried him at an opening meet, waiting until the fences were demolished before scrambling through the debris.  Husband was totally pxxxed by the end of the day and had spilt port all down the neck of the horse, which as he was snow white made him look like he had cut himself.  I used him at our p to p and he always nicked candyfloss from some poor unsuspecting child, cost me a fortune.

He retired at 24 and in his last season he completed a final heroic task.  Our huntsman had a terrible fall and the ambulance could not get to him.  The saddle came off my horse and the hunstman lay across him and was led, very gently to the nearest lane.  I wish we could clone horses, I would have him forever.


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## FfionWinnie (2 August 2013)

You will see your version says "edited" armarata.


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## Amaranta (2 August 2013)

FfionWinnie said:



			You will see your version says "edited" armarata.
		
Click to expand...

So it does 

However, it is still very wrong to post it on here, especially as it contains the OPs real name.


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## Copperpot (2 August 2013)

Adorable Alice that was me and he sounds perfect! Although my ISH will let me smoke and drink and has "saved" me out hunting many times. Maybe that's the ID side of him. And he always stops when I fall off thank god. One day I will have a full ID. He will be dapple grey and we will amble around the countryside me smoking and drinking and him making all the important decisions for us


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## FfionWinnie (2 August 2013)

Amaranta said:



			So it does 

However, it is still very wrong to post it on here, especially as it contains the OPs real name.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I completely agree.


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## Purple18 (2 August 2013)

_GG_ said:



			Purple18...I am sorry, but I think it is highly inappropriate to post someones full name on here without their permission.
		
Click to expand...

I cut and pasted exactly what he posted nothing more nothing less 


 amaranta   no the version I put was the only one I saw I think the one you have may have been edited

edited to add.

a lot of people here are also on facebook and Armas page and there for no james full name  I posted the whole thing to show it was not me just making it up. I'm sorry if that have offended anyone by doing so.


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## Goldenstar (2 August 2013)

Copperpot said:



			Adorable Alice that was me and he sounds perfect! Although my ISH will let me smoke and drink and has "saved" me out hunting many times. Maybe that's the ID side of him. And he always stops when I fall off thank god. One day I will have a full ID. He will be dapple grey and we will amble around the countryside me smoking and drinking and him making all the important decisions for us 

Click to expand...

Fatty says I always wait for MR GS when hes rolled off for a rest and I do pop him back into saddle on landing if it's all gone wrong by side stepping to catch him.
That's the landing correct option for those interested it comes automatically after the riders has had four drinks at the meet.


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## Copperpot (2 August 2013)

I def need that option! And the stand still next to a fence so I can clamber back on option too


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## _GG_ (2 August 2013)

Purple18 said:



			I cut and pasted exactly what he posted nothing more nothing less 


 amaranta   no the version I put was the only one I saw I think the one you have may have been edited

edited to add.

a lot of people here are also on facebook and Armas page and there for no james full name  I posted the whole thing to show it was not me just making it up. I'm sorry if that have offended anyone by doing so.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I know you did and I know he edited it. You could have, however removed his name or asked his permission.

I know a lot of us on here are on those pages, but James had a choice of whether to allow us access to his name when he chose to add or accept us as friends. That is a choice you decided to take away from him. 

I have just realised that in quoting you I have kept his name public so I will remove that and perhaps Amaranta would like to do the same. Would you be able to remove it from your post? You may not be able to edit now...don't know what the timeframe is for that, perhaps mods will have to do it if James wants it done...I don't know, I can't speak for him.

I had issue with you posting the comment Purple...just the name 

Edited to say....I can't edit my quoted post now so will PM admin and see if they can do it. Damn my non technically minded and crap little brain:0


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## Goldenstar (2 August 2013)

Oh no I may have to attempt to learn how to 'do 'Facebook .I don't know if I am strong enough.


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## FionaM12 (2 August 2013)

On Facebook, if you click on where it says "edited" after a post it does give the option to see the original version.


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## DabDab (2 August 2013)

Can't think why but this thread has given me the strongest urge to go ID shopping:confused3:...:wink3:


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## _GG_ (2 August 2013)

Goingforgold said:



			Why is Armas posting this on Facebook? Surely he knew that buy posting videos of each and every session people would discuss them? Or are we all just supposed to go pretty fairy tale horse?
		
Click to expand...

What business is it of yours what he does or doesn't do outside of these pages?

Don't wish to be rude, but why does it matter?


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## Amaranta (2 August 2013)

Goingforgold said:



			Why is Armas posting this on Facebook? Surely he knew that buy posting videos of each and every session people would discuss them? Or are we all just supposed to go pretty fairy tale horse?
		
Click to expand...


Em why shouldn't he?  What business is it of yours exactly?  

I have a good idea who you actually are, your posting style is very difficult to disguise, as is your dislike for Armas


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## Mahoganybay (2 August 2013)

Is it wrong that all i want to hear about are Adorable Alices adventures on her ID's?

Not gonna make any comments on Armas's posts, am finding the constant posting and videos abit boring really, time for a giggle again so come on AA start a new thread about your adventures, pleeeeaaase!


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## Marydoll (2 August 2013)

Mahoganybay said:



			Is it wrong that all i want to hear about are Adorable Alices adventures on her ID's?

Not gonna make any comments on Armas's posts, am finding the constant posting and videos abit boring really, time for a giggle again so come on AA start a new thread about your adventures, pleeeeaaase!
		
Click to expand...

Sounds good


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## rhino (2 August 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Em why shouldn't he?  What business is it of yours exactly?  

I have a good idea who you actually are, your posting style is very difficult to disguise, as is your dislike for Armas
		
Click to expand...

Isn't it just...

I could also, if I didn't think it was terribly bad manners, post comments that several posters on this thread have made about the OP on fb. Oh no, wait, I couldn't, as HHO doesn't allow abusive posts and blatant bullying behaviour


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## rhino (2 August 2013)

Hey, the new eyeroll smiley is _rubbish!_


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## AdorableAlice (2 August 2013)

Mahoganybay said:



			Is it wrong that all i want to hear about are Adorable Alices adventures on her ID's?

Not gonna make any comments on Armas's posts, am finding the constant posting and videos abit boring really, time for a giggle again so come on AA start a new thread about your adventures, pleeeeaaase!
		
Click to expand...

Naughty of me to hijack a post.  If you want a laugh read my thread 'My next equine project' it started a year ago when I found myself landed with a feral cart horse and I turned to the forum for help.


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## FionaM12 (2 August 2013)

rhino said:



			Isn't it just...

I could also, if I didn't think it was terribly bad manners, post comments that several posters on this thread have made about the OP on fb. Oh no, wait, I couldn't, as HHO doesn't allow abusive posts and blatant bullying behaviour 

Click to expand...

*Hangs head in shame and goes to check own comments on fb* :redface3:


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## Mahoganybay (2 August 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			Naughty of me to hijack a post.  If you want a laugh read my thread 'My next equine project' it started a year ago when I found myself landed with a feral cart horse and I turned to the forum for help.
		
Click to expand...

Oh, I have, possibly one of the best threads on here, who could not love Ted & his adventures


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## doriangrey (2 August 2013)

Adorable Alice one of my fave posters - but what a hijack!! .  I'm not on facebook (and won't be on the foreseeable future) so I'm not an 'Armas' follower.  Jeez Louise, can someone explain to me why it was necessary to unearth older/advertising vids of Armas?  To prove what point exactly?  That he was green/rubbish (it has been said by FF) lame/not fit for his job/not a good representation for the stud?  Wow ... sorry if I repeat myself, but unless I'm on the ground with that horse and not seeing him pretty much 24 hours I'll limit myself to what I know (no certs required ) ...  Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and I guess I'm one of them


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## FlaxenPony05 (2 August 2013)

rhino said:



			Hey, the new eyeroll smiley is _rubbish!_ 

Click to expand...

It really is, isn't it!


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## FionaM12 (2 August 2013)

FlaxenPony05 said:



			It really is, isn't it!
		
Click to expand...

:rolleyes3: :rolleyes3:


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## Cinnamontoast (2 August 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Em why shouldn't he?  What business is it of yours exactly?  

I have a good idea who you actually are, your posting style is very difficult to disguise, as is your dislike for Armas
		
Click to expand...

*Claps*



rhino said:



			Hey, the new eyeroll smiley is _rubbish!_ 

Click to expand...

So use the old one! Do this without spaces. : rolleyes3 : and you get :rolleyes3: :wink3:

FionaM12, you are a TEASE! :eek3:


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## rhino (2 August 2013)

FlaxenPony05 said:



			It really is, isn't it!
		
Click to expand...

They are all a bit poo really 



FionaM12 said:



			:rolleyes3: :rolleyes3:
		
Click to expand...

Ooh! They still exist then!



cinnamontoast said:



			*Claps*



So use the old one! Do this without spaces. : rolleyes3 : and you get :rolleyes3: :wink3:

FionaM12, you are a TEASE! :eek3:
		
Click to expand...

Thanks CT, is there a list of them all anywhere?


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## FionaM12 (2 August 2013)

Cinnamontoast, no matter how often I see your profile pic, I see it as a puppet show, like Punch and Judy! 

I think I might need new glasses..... :redface3: :rolleyes3:

Like this


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## FionaM12 (2 August 2013)

rhino said:



			They are all a bit poo really 



Ooh! They still exist then!



Thanks CT, is there a list of them all anywhere? 

Click to expand...

When you're writing your post, scroll down and click where it says "SMILIES are on" then scroll down on the screen that comes up.


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## Amaranta (2 August 2013)

rhino said:



			Isn't it just...

I could also, if I didn't think it was terribly bad manners, post comments that several posters on this thread have made about the OP on fb. Oh no, wait, I couldn't, as HHO doesn't allow abusive posts and blatant bullying behaviour 

Click to expand...

lol

D ick D astardly  

BUSTED!


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## Amaranta (2 August 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			Cinnamontoast, no matter how often I see your profile pic, I see it as a puppet show, like Punch and Judy! 

I think I might need new glasses..... :redface3: :rolleyes3:

Like this 
	
	
		
		
	


	




Click to expand...

Daaaaam now I will see it the same way


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## Armas (2 August 2013)

Goingforgold said:



			Wow how original 

I stand by what i said (otherwise i would not have said it)
		
Click to expand...

Drum role Delicia D 

I have suspected for a while that you had reinvented your self. However your valid attempt to hide who you are was not particularly well done. Why do you feel the need to stalk my posts ?


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## FionaM12 (2 August 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			When you're writing your post, scroll down and click where it says "SMILIES are on" then scroll down on the screen that comes up. 

Click to expand...

In fact, you don't have to be writing a post it's there all the time. :redface3:


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## PolarSkye (2 August 2013)

Goingforgold said:



			are we all just supposed to go pretty fairy tale horse?
		
Click to expand...

Oh . . . can I play that game?  I happen to think my boy is a fairytale horse too . . . honestly, I think James can be a little show offy, but his horse is very pretty . . . and who's to say that the rest of us who post pictures of our horses aren't also begging for someone to say "ooooooooh . . . preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeety."

The real question here is whether or not Armas' current regime is right for him . . . I happen to think not, but I refuse to be rude about it.

P


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## Armas (2 August 2013)

PolarSkye said:



			Oh . . . can I play that game?  I happen to think my boy is a fairytale horse too . . . honestly, I think James can be a little show offy, but his horse is very pretty . . . and who's to say that the rest of us who post pictures of our horses aren't also begging for someone to say "ooooooooh . . . preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeety."

The real question here is whether or not Armas' current regime is right for him . . . I happen to think not, but I refuse to be rude about it.P
		
Click to expand...

I respect your opinion I salute it. Every ones horses on here are pretty to them


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## Cinnamontoast (2 August 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			Cinnamontoast, no matter how often I see your profile pic, I see it as a puppet show, like Punch and Judy! 

I think I might need new glasses..... :redface3: :rolleyes3:

Like this 
	
	
		
		
	


	




Click to expand...




Amaranta said:



			Daaaaam now I will see it the same way 

Click to expand...

You strange ladies! It's obviously corrugated metal! Is this better?


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## Armas (2 August 2013)

Oh dear going for gold has gone dark what a shame. When will DD learn. Never i suspect.


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## Amaranta (2 August 2013)

cinnamontoast said:



			You strange ladies! It's obviously corrugated metal! Is this better?





Click to expand...


Much


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## Equilibrium Ireland (2 August 2013)

I'm sorry, I love this line, everyone's horses are pretty to them. Says all I needed to know.

Terri


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## Always Henesy (2 August 2013)

rhino said:



			Isn't it just...

I could also, if I didn't think it was terribly bad manners, post comments that several posters on this thread have made about the OP on fb. Oh no, wait, I couldn't, as HHO doesn't allow abusive posts and blatant bullying behaviour 

Click to expand...

This ^^^^(hey lovely R)


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## Amaranta (2 August 2013)

Armas said:



			Oh dear going for gold has gone dark what a shame. When will DD learn. Never i suspect.
		
Click to expand...


Actually seems to have gone completely


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## Sussexbythesea (2 August 2013)

_GG_ said:



			Purple18...I am sorry, but I think it is highly inappropriate to post someones full name on here without their permission.
		
Click to expand...

I think it would be if someone wanted to remain very anonymous e.g - you - no idea who you are never seen a pic you have posted - you could be anyone - you seem to talk sense that is all I know. I knew James's full name from the endless posts and links to FB pages that he has made over the years - it's hardly a big secret is it? 

Ever since I knew his name I have always imagined him as the geeky Norman Tuttle from the TV series Streethawk  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Regalbuto

Sorry James  

P.s the sparkly Pinot Grigio has gone to my head slightly


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## ester (2 August 2013)

doriangrey said:



			Adorable Alice one of my fave posters - but what a hijack!! .  I'm not on facebook (and won't be on the foreseeable future) so I'm not an 'Armas' follower.  Jeez Louise, can someone explain to me why it was necessary to unearth older/advertising vids of Armas?  To prove what point exactly?  That he was green/rubbish (it has been said by FF) lame/not fit for his job/not a good representation for the stud?  Wow ... sorry if I repeat myself, but unless I'm on the ground with that horse and not seeing him pretty much 24 hours I'll limit myself to what I know (no certs required ) ...  Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and I guess I'm one of them 

Click to expand...


it was me who first posted the link to the old videos. I actually stumbled across them while seeing if I could find a stud page to ogle pretty horses and just thought they were interesting in terms of comparison because he looked so different and we have rather been invited to watch this horses' training from day 1


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## rhino (2 August 2013)

sussexbythesea said:



			I think it would be if someone wanted to remain very anonymous e.g - you - no idea who you are never seen a pic you have posted - you could be anyone - you seem to talk sense that is all I know. I knew James's full name from the endless posts and links to FB pages that he has made over the years - it's hardly a big secret is it?
		
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter, it is extremely bad forum etiquette to quote someone's full name. I am also pretty sure it is against the HHO forum t&c's as plenty people have been infracted/banned for doing it in the past.


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## ester (2 August 2013)

agreed! the only reason I even use 'James' is because otherwise it rather confuses whether we are talking about the man or the horse


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## Sussexbythesea (2 August 2013)

rhino said:



			It doesn't matter, it is extremely bad forum etiquette to quote someone's full name. I am also pretty sure it is against the HHO forum t&c's as plenty people have been infracted/banned for doing it in the past.



Click to expand...

Fair enough I wouldn't do it myself although I may have just made a ***** up - damn you fizzy Pinot Grigio


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## doriangrey (2 August 2013)

ester said:



			it was me who first posted the link to the old videos. I actually stumbled across them while seeing if I could find a stud page to ogle pretty horses and just thought they were interesting in terms of comparison because he looked so different and we have rather been invited to watch this horses' training from day 1 

Click to expand...

I know it was you  (the new smilies are rubbish!).  I know they are different but he's a different horse entirely now too imo.  I think Spring Feather likened him to a riding school horse (forgive if I'm wrong) and also someone quoted 'If you ask nothing from me, I won't offer in return' or something similar?  I suspect from SF's (very modest) description about her horses being schooled for absolute beginners, they would be able to turn their hooves to anything if needs must.  What am I saying .. I think I'm saying that (breed/training notwithstanding), I don't see a switched off horse, or an unhappy horse.  I see a horse that is concentrating and struggling with that training, but I don't see a sour animal that others have seen - rightly or wrongly.  Lameness?  The only thing I thought that was funny was his duckwalk at the beginning of the last vid.  If I was to stick my neck out I'd say it was his near stifle that was a problem.


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## Purple18 (2 August 2013)

_GG_ said:



			Yes, I know you did and I know he edited it. You could have, however removed his name or asked his permission.

I know a lot of us on here are on those pages, but James had a choice of whether to allow us access to his name when he chose to add or accept us as friends. That is a choice you decided to take away from him. 

I have just realised that in quoting you I have kept his name public so I will remove that and perhaps Amaranta would like to do the same. Would you be able to remove it from your post? You may not be able to edit now...don't know what the timeframe is for that, perhaps mods will have to do it if James wants it done...I don't know, I can't speak for him.

I had issue with you posting the comment Purple...just the name 

Edited to say....I can't edit my quoted post now so will PM admin and see if they can do it. Damn my non technically minded and crap little brain:0
		
Click to expand...

I didn't even think it would be a problem it didn't even cross my mind for a second  James full name is very easily found by his helpful link. it wasn't until mentioned that I spotted his name there but I can get it removed to if that what James wants 



sussexbythesea said:



			I think it would be if someone wanted to remain very anonymous e.g - you - no idea who you are never seen a pic you have posted - you could be anyone - you seem to talk sense that is all I know. I knew James's full name from the endless posts and links to FB pages that he has made over the years - it's hardly a big secret is it? 


Ever since I knew his name I have always imagined him as the geeky Norman Tuttle from the TV series Streethawk  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Regalbuto

Sorry James  

P.s the sparkly Pinot Grigio has gone to my head slightly 

Click to expand...

kind of what I thought when I realised I included his full name


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## _GG_ (2 August 2013)

sussexbythesea said:



			I think it would be if someone wanted to remain very anonymous e.g - you - no idea who you are never seen a pic you have posted - you could be anyone - you seem to talk sense that is all I know. I knew James's full name from the endless posts and links to FB pages that he has made over the years - it's hardly a big secret is it? 

Ever since I knew his name I have always imagined him as the geeky Norman Tuttle from the TV series Streethawk  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Regalbuto

Sorry James  

P.s the sparkly Pinot Grigio has gone to my head slightly 

Click to expand...

Hi, My name is Cheryl Bray and my youtube link is available as have posted videos on here before of me riding and cake decorating. My Justgiving page is in my name too. 

I see no point in hiding behind anonymity if you want to ever help people. I think it is best to be completely transparent. 

Still thing it is just pure good manners and respectful to allow people to choose when their names are displayed. Being available through clicking links is a bit different. Well, IMO it is anyway but hey ho. 

I get what you're saying. 

Oh...and I may be vaguely sensible on here most of the time but I can assure you I am a complete nutcase!!! :smile3:



Purple18 said:



			I didn't even think it would be a problem it didn't even cross my mind for a second  James full name is very easily found by his helpful link. it wasn't until mentioned that I spotted his name there but I can get it removed to if that what James wants 



kind of what I thought when I realised I included his full name
		
Click to expand...


I know...it wasn't until I mentioned it to you that I realised I had made it permanently visible by quoting you...DOH!!!!!

Stoopid me. Oh well, I let James know I couldn't edit so he can ask Admin if he wants it gone


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## DabDab (2 August 2013)

doriangrey said:



			I know it was you  (the new smilies are rubbish!).  I know they are different but he's a different horse entirely now too imo.  I think Spring Feather likened him to a riding school horse (forgive if I'm wrong) and also someone quoted 'If you ask nothing from me, I won't offer in return' or something similar?  I suspect from SF's (very modest) description about her horses being schooled for absolute beginners, they would be able to turn their hooves to anything if needs must.  What am I saying .. I think I'm saying that (breed/training notwithstanding), I don't see a switched off horse, or an unhappy horse.  I see a horse that is concentrating and struggling with that training, but I don't see a sour animal that others have seen - rightly or wrongly.  Lameness?  The only thing I thought that was funny was his duckwalk at the beginning of the last vid.  If I was to stick my neck out I'd say it was his near stifle that was a problem.
		
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I think it was actually Milliepops who said 'if you ask nothing from me...', and like you I agree with both of them. I also think that in the stud video he looked awkward, hollow and a million miles from straight, and as for not being btv, well it is very hard to be behind the vertical when his head and neck are so upright - when the current rider rides him in an upright frame he is not behind the vertical for her either.  I certainly don't think Armas looked any 'happier' in the previous videos than he does now.


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## FionaM12 (2 August 2013)

_GG_ said:



			I see no point in hiding behind anonymity if you want to ever help people. I think it is best to be completely transparent.
		
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I disagree. There are several posters on here whose advice was extremely useful to me when I first joined (and since) without me having a clue who they were in RL. Also, there are lots of very good and often sensible reasons why people choose to be anonymous and it's their right to do so. 

I would be extremely upset if someone posted my real name here, even though quite a few know me from Facebook. having a particularly unusual name means Google would bring anyone searching for me straight here and there are good but private reasons why I don't want that to happen.


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## Purple18 (2 August 2013)

_GG_ said:



			Hi, My name is Cheryl Bray and my youtube link is available as have posted videos on here before of me riding and cake decorating. My Justgiving page is in my name too. 

I see no point in hiding behind anonymity if you want to ever help people. I think it is best to be completely transparent. 

Still thing it is just pure good manners and respectful to allow people to choose when their names are displayed. Being available through clicking links is a bit different. Well, IMO it is anyway but hey ho. 

I get what you're saying. 

Oh...and I may be vaguely sensible on here most of the time but I can assure you I am a complete nutcase!!! :smile3:




I know...it wasn't until I mentioned it to you that I realised I had made it permanently visible by quoting you...DOH!!!!!

Stoopid me. Oh well, I let James know I couldn't edit so he can ask Admin if he wants it gone 

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lol


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## _GG_ (2 August 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			I disagree. There are several posters on here whose advice was extremely useful to me when I first joined (and since) without me having a clue who they were in RL. Also, there are lots of very good and often sensible reasons why people choose to be anonymous and it's there right to do so. 

I would be extremely upset if someone posted my real name here, even though quite a few know me from Facebook. having a particularly unusual name means Google would bring anyone searching for me straight here and there are good but private reasons why I don't want that to happen.
		
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That's why I pulled Purple18 up on it....I don't like it. 

I do get what you mean about anonymity. I used to feel the exact same way. It's why I don't have my real name as my username. I don't want to be easily traceable, but at the same time, I don't mind people knowing who I am.

I have no idea if that even makes sense!!!


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## DabDab (2 August 2013)

_GG_ said:



			That's why I pulled Purple18 up on it....I don't like it. 

I do get what you mean about anonymity. I used to feel the exact same way. It's why I don't have my real name as my username. I don't want to be easily traceable, but at the same time, I don't mind people knowing who I am.

I have no idea if that even makes sense!!!
		
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Not really - the Horse and Hound Forum ranks extremely highly on all the major search engines, so if someone googles your name this will be one of the first things they find on you. I know I wouldn't want my business contacts tracing me to hear, purely because horses are part of my home life and I do not want that in any way mixed up with my work life.


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## Purple18 (2 August 2013)

I just want to mention if anyone thinks I put James full name up on purpose I didn't I copied and pasted which sadly included his full name. which I didn't even realised had happened Until _GG_ pointed it out and when I check my post I saw it. I would have never of posted his full name if I have realised it was there


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## FionaM12 (2 August 2013)

DabDab said:



			Not really - the Horse and Hound Forum ranks extremely highly on all the major search engines, so if someone googles your name this will be one of the first things they find on you. I know I wouldn't want my business contacts tracing me to hear, purely because horses are part of my home life and I do not want that in any way mixed up with my work life.
		
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Yes, and there's the little matter of one's bosses googling to find one merrily posting here during work time! :redface3:


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## Spring Feather (2 August 2013)

doriangrey said:



			I know it was you  (the new smilies are rubbish!).  I know they are different but he's a different horse entirely now too imo.  I think Spring Feather likened him to a riding school horse (forgive if I'm wrong) and also someone quoted 'If you ask nothing from me, I won't offer in return' or something similar?  I suspect from SF's (very modest) description about her horses being schooled for absolute beginners, they would be able to turn their hooves to anything if needs must.  What am I saying .. I think I'm saying that (breed/training notwithstanding), I don't see a switched off horse, or an unhappy horse.  I see a horse that is concentrating and struggling with that training, but I don't see a sour animal that others have seen - rightly or wrongly.  Lameness?  The only thing I thought that was funny was his duckwalk at the beginning of the last vid.  If I was to stick my neck out I'd say it was his near stifle that was a problem.
		
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Hi there, yes you're right, the horses I produce for the local market are all AQHA horses, they're all well bred working cattle horses and yes they all are capable of ranch work but if I taught them all the cues to work cattle my buyers wouldn't be able to stay on them.  Trained working quarter horses are incredibly sensitive off the leg and of course that would be totally counter to what novicey riders would want so I dull down this sensitivity and never ever teach them cues to have them spin on a dime ... although that could produce some kaleidoscopic results I'm sure for some people :biggrin3:  As I say though I have had some who couldn't do the novice rider route so I keep them for myself as this type of horse works well for me :smile3:

I actually found the videos that Ester posted very telling to be honest.  I hadn't seen those before and I have to say I was falling into almost a 'blame culture' with Armas' previous/present riders (I hate doing that!).  What I found interesting in particular is that Armas looks uneven/unsound in the sales video and no I didn't care for the way he was being ridden in the early days, he really did look like a riding school horse to me.


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## Spring Feather (2 August 2013)

Purple18 said:



			I just want to mention if anyone thinks I put James full name up on purpose I didn't I copied and pasted which sadly included his full name. which I didn't even realised had happened Until _GG_ pointed it out and when I check my post I saw it. I would have never of posted his full name if I have realised it was there
		
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I wouldn't worry about it.  I know James' full name, so do loads of people on here.  James posted it on here before and he's had links to his business on here so that's how I knew his name.


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## _GG_ (2 August 2013)

Yeah...I suppose I don't really worry about bosses or anyone searching me. Easy to forget what affects others!


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