# Horse mouth ulcer??



## rosebud (7 June 2008)

Brought Belle in today.... noticed that she had a ulcer look alike in the inside of her top lip. She isn't being ridden at the moment as she has foal at foot. Recently she has been head shaking a lot, not sure if this is anything to do with it.
Here are a few pictures 
Any suggestion of what this could be?


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## littlewhittle (7 June 2008)

my yearling has one exactly like it.  The vet said that it is probably something in the grass she is sensitive to.  He said to put sudocrem on it but it will eventually go....


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## rosebud (7 June 2008)

Can you apply sudocrem on the inside of her mouth, We were going but werent to sure.


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## LCobby (7 June 2008)

Had she been nibbling at any hawthorn? 
I'd wash with tepid salt water to keep it clean.


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## Box_Of_Frogs (7 June 2008)

TBH Rosebud, I don't like the look of that. Could be just a cut but could also be a rodent ulcer or a sarcoid or god knows what. I'd definitely say it looks sore enough to cause ned to shake her head to try to stop the hurt. If it was me, I'd get the vet out for a look and in the meantime swab it carefully with something that YOU would feel happy having in YOUR mouth. I'm thinking Bonjela or something. The  problem with sores in the mouth is that the protective lining of the mouth is breached so the saliva/mouth bacteria/etc can get into the flesh and bloodstream. You'll probably know how horrible even a small mouth ulcer is for a human. I'd certainly headshake!!! The problem with any substances you put in the mouth to try to help is (a) they will be washed straight off so aren't much use and (b) they also get swallowed so you need to be totally happy that it's something that it's ok to swallow!


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## Faro (11 June 2008)

Rosebud,

Are there Buttercups in your grazing?

One of mine gets identical ulcers to these every year at about this time when the buttercups start to appear - and I've heard the same thing from many, many other people.

In my own experience, these ulcers always heal natually and nicely after a couple of weeks - and I've noticed that each year they seem to be a little bit smaller than last year's ones.


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## moandben (11 June 2008)

HI, I have 5 horses and two of them get the same, my four year old has had them for the last three summers and i have just bought her full brother in march and he has the same, I had the vet out to look at the four year old and they werent sure what they were. I don't have many buttercups !!

would be really interested if their is any more info.


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## monstermunch (11 June 2008)

I'm intrigued. My youngster has just come up with exactly the same thing. I assumed it was an ulcer but was laos curious about what would have caused it. No buttercups in my field though.


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## mcnaughty (24 May 2010)

Just found this old thread on a search for mouth ulcers in horses and wondered if anyone else had had issues like this.

My mare is due to foal any day soon and has a really nasty one on her top lip just on the outside of the inside if that makes any sense!!

Never seen them before myself - would Bonjella work or will it just go by itself?


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## Sam22 (24 May 2010)

For the third time this week they are caused by BOT LARVAE burrowing into the skin. They are classic lesions and nothing to do with buttercups. I do know what I am talking about because I am a vet. They are correctly called granulomas and are a hypersensitivity reaction to migrating bot larvae. They can take a very long time to go and putting steroid cream on will speed them on their way if you are getting inpatient but otherwise just keep clean and wait. Read post below called "Help! What are these".
Do not put sudocream on open sores it clogs poors and slows healing - it is meant to provide a water proof layer for babies bumbs not for horse wounds.


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## nic85 (24 May 2010)

Sam22 said:



			For the third time this week they are caused by BOT LARVAE burrowing into the skin. They are classic lesions and nothing to do with buttercups. I do know what I am talking about because I am a vet. They are correctly called granulomas and are a hypersensitivity reaction to migrating bot larvae. They can take a very long time to go and putting steroid cream on will speed them on their way if you are getting inpatient but otherwise just keep clean and wait. Read post below called "Help! What are these".
Do not put sudocream on open sores it clogs poors and slows healing - it is meant to provide a water proof layer for babies bumbs not for horse wounds.
		
Click to expand...

Yes that was my post, see here
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=370901

My yearling is not bothered by them unless you try and touch them, which is understandable!

I will admit to putting sudocreme on though *blushing smilie* , but only once!!


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## scally (24 May 2010)

After reading previous posts last week, our vet was on a routine visit and one horse has these uclers.

They are nothing to do with bot larvae.  Bot eggs spend 10 - 12 months in the stomach before being passed out through dropping, where in 1 -2 months they hatch as flies, so firstly totally the wrong time of the year, and secondly they do not pass out through the mouth, but through droppings. 

In cattle, the lesions caused by these flies can become infected by Mannheimia granulomatis, a bacterium that causes lechiguana, characterized by rapid growing, hard lumps beneath the skin of the animal. Without antibiotics an affected animal will die within 3&#8211;11 months.  But this is the lesion left by the fly again nothing to do with the larvae.

Also as a vet I am sure you are fully aware that you never put a steriod cream on an open wound.

They are grass ulcers, normally caused by eating short grass or sensitivity to something they have eaten within the grass, they heal themselves in a couple of weeks.  If you are concerned email your vet the photographs for confirmation.


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## scally (24 May 2010)

Just also realised the date of this original post is August 2008!


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## mcnaughty (25 May 2010)

Thanks Sam - sounds rather grim!  Is there anything we can do to prevent this?


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## mcnaughty (25 May 2010)

Sorry Scally just seen your note.   Yes original post was ages ago - just lazy not setting up my own thread!

She does not seem that bothered by it and it did look smaller and less angry looking this morning.

Thanks - I'm just going to leave it be.


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## Sam22 (25 May 2010)

Scally - a shame you have miss understood life cycle of bots completely - lesions around the lips are where the larvae go in not come out. And guess what - it is exactly the right time of year. They are not wounds, they are granulomas - treated with streroids if fail to resolve spontaniously - in all basic veterinary txt books, a shame your vet hasn't bothered to do research properly. Mannheimia lesions are easilly differentiated from bot lesions if you know what your looking at.


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## LMuirEDT (25 May 2010)

They look similar to this on another forum

http://ihdg.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=ght10&thread=105949&page=1

Quote 'The vet has just confirmed that this is the site where a bot fly would have burrowed into Theoden's lip. There is apparently little risk to him providing his worming is up to date. He was Pramoxed eight weeks ago (new verb) and she says to worm him with Equest on the normal date but if there is any sign of great infestation they might recommend an intermediate Ivermectin based product but not now (Pramox and Equest have long residual effect). The site itself needs to be treated with warm salty water and sudocrem or Flamazine. I need to keep an eye on his mouth and just make sure there is nothing ugly going on inside in which case they need to come and have a look but they are fairly sure this won't happen. I need to check that he is eating and that he is comfortable with his bit. '

and 

'There are, apparently, three different types of bots - those that lay their eggs on the legs - yellow eggs and then get ingested through the mouth and one that lays black eggs on the whiskers which then become larvae which then burrow in to the horse's mouth and a third type that I wasn't worrying about at the time.

Definitely not a cold sore type of thing but vet said okay to use same sort of medicine. 

To save me breaching copyright have a look at this -

http://ph.merial.com/equine/pdf/equine_vteq_bot.pdf

I shall be very disappointed if the Pramox doesn't get them as the product details say:

Equest Pramox is a unique combination equine wormer. Containing moxidectin and praziquantel in a palatable gel, it is the only combination wormer to control with a single dose: roundworms, bots, all 3 species of tapeworm, and all stages of the harmful and potentially fatal encysted small redworm larvae.'


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## scally (25 May 2010)

Sam22  if you would like to speak directly to my vets, because if they have in fact wrongly advised and treated my horse and given me totally false advice then I certainly will not pay their bill, they are also in Suffolk a big Equine Practice.


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## Sam22 (25 May 2010)

They haven't given you false advise Scally, they told you to do nothing which is the correct advise. Your worming schedule should include bot treatment any way so you can't wriggle out of paying your bill.


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## scally (25 May 2010)

Lol Sam22 not trying to wriggle out of paying the bill, just trying to get exact information on these ulcers.

If they are not as advised, and it may not just be me but people that dont worm or have a worming routine then it puts horses at risks.

I have the utmost respect for vets, and hence why my comments state if unsure send the pictures to your vet, but if there really is a huge difference of opinion, then as purely a horse owner, which vet is right?


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## Sam22 (26 May 2010)

Unfortunately yours is not the only vet with inept knowledge of this matter. I sugest you ask them to photocopy pages 204-206 of "Pascoe's priciples and practice of equine dermatolgy" and send them to you. You need to do re-search from reliable sorces, if you have a good text book look up bots/gasterophilus. I havn't searched them on google myself but there may be some good pictures there that might convince you and might not - that is for you to decide.


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## Lymmie's Pal (10 July 2010)

I've had Lymmie 3 years and she gets these every year at the start of June. First year I had vet exam and biopsy, when 3 lip ulcers appeared. Biopsy inconclusive, though I was relieved it was nothing tumorous. Vet suggested probably _Habronema_ and injected sores with steroid, after which they disappeared in a couple of weeks.

A few other horses on our yard have since been found with similar lesions, some that start in April and disappear in a couple of weeks, others which persist throughout Summer and Autumn. Lymmie had 3 ulcers the first year, but only one (in exactly the same place) this year and last. She has been in different paddocks in two of the years (quite far apart) and the only other factor I can think of is that sheep are grazed with the horses.


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## ester (10 July 2010)

that is a bot fly lesion for comparison.

afaik it is quite rare, more so than these ulcer threads seem to appear or reappear


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## mcnaughty (12 July 2010)

I would like to add at this point that I left my mare's ulcer/lesion whatever you want to call it completely alone and it healed and was gone in 2 weeks.

Seemingly the same amount of time it takes to heal with steriod injections and various types of cream so I will leave the decided treatment up to the individual ....

Thanks Sam and all for all your extremely helpful info.

Fi


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## deicinmerlyn (12 July 2010)

I noticed yesterday my gelding has an ulcer either side of his upper gum in front of where the bit would go.

would this have been caused by the same thing?


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## piccaso (26 December 2010)

hi did you find out what bella's sore on top lipp was and did it heal up i ask because i have noticed the same things on boys upper lipp he has a big one looks just like the one in your photo and a few real small ones he is 2 years and only had him for 5 months he is the first horse i am attemting to break in myself only noticed when went to work with mouth i have had the vet out and she was useless she had to go back to the office to look it up and rang me and told me it was a sarcoid i really dont think it is well i hope to hell not and suggests to inject it with chemopherapy drugs if you could help with any medication names or any thing if used to heal it if any they the lesions have been there for about three weeks but little ones just popped up recently i wash them with salt water put bonjela on them and sm33 cream and given him a dose of antibiotics thanks.


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## Rueysmum (26 December 2010)

I wouldn't worry too much - it's probably down to something she's eaten.  One of mine gets these a lot in the spring/summer and I just add human Vitamin C tablets to his feed and they disappear over time.


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## Archina (18 April 2011)

Lymmie's Pal said:



			I've had Lymmie 3 years and she gets these every year at the start of June. First year I had vet exam and biopsy, when 3 lip ulcers appeared. Biopsy inconclusive, though I was relieved it was nothing tumorous. Vet suggested probably _Habronema_ and injected sores with steroid, after which they disappeared in a couple of weeks.

A few other horses on our yard have since been found with similar lesions, some that start in April and disappear in a couple of weeks, others which persist throughout Summer and Autumn. Lymmie had 3 ulcers the first year, but only one (in exactly the same place) this year and last. She has been in different paddocks in two of the years (quite far apart) and the only other factor I can think of is that sheep are grazed with the horses.
		
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Ive read through this post and this is the first comment that has mentioned sheep. My 2 yr old has had them both years and my vet had never seen those kind of ulcers on a horse before. The only thing he could liken it to was Orf / contagious ecthyma that affect sheep and goats. Its a viral infection which  can be easily passed to other animals and even ourselves. Its not unusual for the animal to get it every year and it usually gets less severe each year untill eventually disapearing. My vet gave my youngster a 2 week course of antibiotics and they healed up very nicely.  
The only problem i have with the whole bot fly egg theory is the symmetry of the ulcers. My youngsters ulcers are in the exact same place as last year and opposite each other towards the back of the mouth. If it was bot larvae burrowing into the lips the ulcers would be in random places on the mouth.

I am not saying i am 100% right because even my vet had never seen it before and it was probably a very good guess that it was Orf but the course of treatment worked and we do get a lot of escapee sheep from the farm next door in our fields.


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## ZoeMilne (3 July 2012)

I bought a new horse a couple of weeks ago and she broke out in mouth ulcers. She had them around the brim of her lips and inside her gums, on her tongue and around her teeth. She was not bothered by them and they were not sore. I initially put it down to being a buttercup rash but as I started researching it, i realised the pictures looked nothing like what she had. I had been rinsing it out with saline and putting bonjela on but no improvemets. It was suggested to me it could be bot flies. 
I gave her an all round wormer on Friday which does bot flies, when I checked her mouth yesterday (Monday) the ulcers were completely gone. Apart from the ulcers, she had no visable signs of having bot flies. 
I was amazed there was not more information about this online.


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## Meadow1 (25 August 2015)

If you're a vet, (or even if you're not), you then you should know how to spell pores.


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## Tnavas (26 August 2015)

scally said:



			After reading previous posts last week, our vet was on a routine visit and one horse has these uclers.

They are nothing to do with bot larvae.  Bot eggs spend 10 - 12 months in the stomach before being passed out through dropping, where in 1 -2 months they hatch as flies, so firstly totally the wrong time of the year, and secondly they do not pass out through the mouth, but through droppings.
		
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The first stage of bot development is in the mouth, ulcers like the one shown can often be seen, you are currently in Bot Fly season with a vengence.

Horse licks hatching larvae which then burrows into the lips, gums or tongue. They then develop to a certain point where they hatch and are swallowed into the stomach and intestines where they complete their development.

Sores on the outside can be treated with Sudocreme, those on the inside with Bonjela.


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