# BE -Calling Dressage Stewards/Organizers !!!



## B-B (26 June 2011)

Why are riders wearing hot tweed jackets in the hot humid weather?

Its not the judges decision and today a rider struggled with faint after their test.     

Wearing the number bibs is hot enough.  All riders today had purple faces....what is there to gain by not allowing them to remove their jackets?

Come on BE, in hot weather its H&S issue if not common sense!


----------



## Lolo (26 June 2011)

I swear it was the judge's call? Or is that only PC and RC?


----------



## oldvic (26 June 2011)

It is the BE steward's call. Did anyone ask? If it was Salperton I am sure she would have said yes but they have enough to think of so if someone asks the question then they can give the answer!!


----------



## LEC (26 June 2011)

At Stonar one year I did dressage in short sleeves but then we had to jump with jackets on as they followed PC rules and you had to have long sleeves. I then went xc in a polo shirt. Whole thing annoyed me a lot as it was 34 degrees.


----------



## oldvic (26 June 2011)

BS judges are very sticky about no sleeves! Not really their call at BE but if they are tricky and anything happened then it could be awkward with H and S.


----------



## B-B (26 June 2011)

Riders dont tend to ask as they think its the rules....same for plaiting.

When its as hot as it is today, then a notice could be posted so riders are aware they are not going to be penalized for it.


----------



## wellsat (26 June 2011)

I never really understand this short sleeves rule. Fair enough for xc in case you scrape your skin off on a fence but how many people honestly fall off at a dressage comp? While I would always, always wear a proper hat just in case I really don't think the H&S argument for long sleeves in dressage stands up. Even if you do fall off its only going to be onto grass or a nice surface.


----------



## oldvic (26 June 2011)

B-B said:



			Riders dont tend to ask as they think its the rules....same for plaiting.

When its as hot as it is today, then a notice could be posted so riders are aware they are not going to be penalized for it.
		
Click to expand...

It is for the rider's comfort not the steward's. Plaiting is not compulsory, just the done thing. Riders have a lot less to think about than the steward and if it means that much to them then they can ask.



wellsat said:



			I never really understand this short sleeves rule. Fair enough for xc in case you scrape your skin off on a fence but how many people honestly fall off at a dressage comp? While I would always, always wear a proper hat just in case I really don't think the H&S argument for long sleeves in dressage stands up. Even if you do fall off its only going to be onto grass or a nice surface.
		
Click to expand...

Short sleeves are allowed for dressage but not sleeveless - not considered smart enough for competition. It is for show jumping that the judges want you to wear jackets in case you fall. After all, it is not for very long. It is advised that people wear sleeves for xc but it is not compulsory.


----------



## B-B (26 June 2011)

I dont agree that riders have less to think about....especially if they are not pro and or just starting out.

If its not a rule then its doesnt have to be the done thing.  There are no marks gained or lost for it.


----------



## oldvic (26 June 2011)

B-B said:



			I dont agree that riders have less to think about....especially if they are not pro and or just starting out.

If its not a rule then its doesnt have to be the done thing.  There are no marks gained or lost for it.
		
Click to expand...

I suggest you spend a day with the BE steward. For a start they have several hundred riders to think about, not just one. Then there is the dressage and how it runs, show jumping and how it runs, the xc and how it runs, not to mention the scoring, being available to look into any rule breaches, requests from riders, queries about fences, ground, etc., overseeing any accidents and generally being on call for any eventuality. This is all after inspecting and passing the sj and xc courses so I think they can be forgiven for not having as high priority whether the riders get a bit sweaty doing their dressage.

No, it doesn't have to be the done thing but it is. Riders take a pride in their horse's turnout and tradition dictates that they are plaited. If you want to start a new trend then that's fine but I don't think it will catch on any time soon.


----------



## B-B (26 June 2011)

I have plenty of first had experience thank you.  And I stick to my original view.

The stewards are there for the riders..not the other way around.

And as for a trend, I have noticed that more and more are not plaiting, so I dont need to start anything....other than encourage riders to ask the stewards if they can remove their jackets...if they are not to busy!


----------



## oldvic (26 June 2011)

B-B said:



			The stewards are there for the riders..not the other way around.
		
Click to expand...

The BE steward is there to represent BE and see that the competition is run within their regulations. His responsibilities are to BE and the organisers and to see that the riders abide by the rules. They may think of saying that riders may ride without jackets in the dressage but they may well be more pre-occupied with other matters like whether the doctor and vet have arrived or supervising getting the fence judges onto the course or coping with a rider that hasn't got their horse's passport.  

You may have stewarded part of an event like an arena for the dressage or a collecting ring in which case your responsibility is to the riders and getting them to their ring on time but this role is completely different to a BE steward.


----------



## B-B (27 June 2011)

It may have....but my invovement is greater than that....and Im there for the rider.   

BE is holding a competition for its members.   BE officials are paid for by members so work for members.

Yes they are policing the rules and the jacket rule is one of them and its a health and safety issue in 80deg heat.   And they are not all consumed by emergencies all of the time.  And there are more likely to be riders making mistakes due to the heat.

A simple sign at the warm up or parking would use up an hour.

Just common sense really.


----------



## Festive_Felicitations (27 June 2011)

In Australia where it gets considerably hotter and sticker than there it is up to the riders to ask for permission to ride with out jackets. I've seen a few entries for comps in Dec or Feb where the entry says 'jackets optional if hot, but shirt with sleeves (of some sort) & tie/stock still required.'

Long-sleeves XC does puzzle me as while I can see the logic, 100's of riders go XC here in short sleeves with out dire consequences. More likely to get 'dire' consequences in the form of heat stroke if you insisted on long sleeves.


----------



## MagicMelon (27 June 2011)

I totally agree. BE need to change their rules. Being forced to wear silly jackets on boiling hot days is ridiculous, as is not being able to wear waterproof jackets on very wet days (they could make money from this - like BSJA, by only allowing BE approved rain jackets!).  

Our sport will never be taken seriously until we bring it into line with other sports where fashion doesnt come into it.  It should be purely about practicalities.  Wearing a stupid stock and show jacket is not practical for anything!  Sorry, but I'm all for modern sport fabrics etc. and yes, I do for example wear the newer BSJA jacket!  C'mon BE, move with the times.

I dont think its anything to do with the officials/organisers allowing it though, it must surely be a BE rule?

So, just to confirm - is there really no rule to say you must plait (manes) for BE dressage???  I always assumed there was.  Perhaps I will start a new trend, I find plaiting the most pointless thing in the world and simply uncomfortable for the horse!  I never leave the plaits in for BE SJ for that very reason.


----------



## gracemoran (27 June 2011)

"BE officials are paid for by members so work for members"

Please be aware that the BE Steward is not paid for their efforts but is a volunteer.  If we are to encourage more people to take on this role then riders have to take some responsibility for themselves and ask if it's ok to ride withour jackets and not expect the BE steward to take on yet more commitments.  We are all adults and should be able to think for ourselves.


----------



## *hic* (27 June 2011)

gracemoran said:



			We are all adults and should be able to think for ourselves.
		
Click to expand...

How very true and sadly in how many walks of life does it seem that so many are totally incapable of doing just that.


----------



## B-B (27 June 2011)

It has nothing to do with being grown up....riders often think rules exist when actually they dont.   I doubt many start out competing knowing every line of the rule book.  And not doing so shouldnt imply they are lacking in anyway.

This is the same for other disciplines.  

There are no rules for plaiting...and as said before no impact on marks.

A simple notice - perhaps on website - should help without over loading volunteers or higher officials.


----------



## oldvic (27 June 2011)

If riders think rules exist when they don't then more fool them. It is not hard to look up rules/read the rule book. You don't even need to pay for it. Otherwise it is always possible to ask someone who has more knowledge of the sport and it's rules. It is the rider's responsibility to know and abide by the rules and not anybody else's to nanny them through like a child.

With regard to stocks and show jackets, the purpose of a stock is to support your neck. A silk stock is not that expensive and cooler than a cotton or polyester one. If it is that much of a hardship to wear one then wear ratcatcher with a collar and tie. Jackets are now made in modern materials that are lightweight and easy to wear. If you are worried about a little rain then maybe you should take up an indoor sport.


----------



## ajn1610 (27 June 2011)

I've been at work today in a suit in a small room with an entire wall of windows and 30 hot sweaty teenagers that wasn't much fun either! If someone had a fainting fit it's more likely down to not taking on enough food and fluids before riding. I know it's unpleasant to get all togged up when it's hot but you only need to have your jacket on for a couple of minutes in the ring. If it's so hot that you can't bare that I'd question whether the conditions are acceptable for the horse to run in. After all he is (or should be!) doing most of the work. I think it's important to look smart, everyone is there putting the event on for our benefit, giving up their time as a vounteer the least you can do is be respectful towards them and show that in your dress.


----------



## Luci07 (27 June 2011)

Ok first to put my hand up as I havent actually been out competing at BE for 5 seasons but I never had a problem in asking if it was alright to compete without my jacket - and as soon as one rider does, then others quickly followed. Last one was Smiths Lawns on what seemed to be the hottest day of the year and I did my SJ with no jacket as well. As someone who has fence judged, written for the dressage judge and stewarded - I expected riders to ask me not the other way round. If you are doing this, there is enough pressure trying to find your riders, check they are correctly presented (no boots etc) and right bits before getting them in on time. As for the comment about no jackets - I seem to remember Stilemans (see I said it was a while ago) and a lot of riders did the XC in a waterproof jacket when I last fence judged.


Having come back to watch a few this season in prep for getting back out there, the only difference I have seen is that now people seem to be able to wear black jackets at intro and PN whereas previously, they could only wear rat catchers. That and the fact that my beloved beaglers are no longer BE stressage legal!

And I like to see standards maintained. In reality, you only get out to a few events and I take pride in turning myself and my horse out to the best standard I can. That for me means plaiting - I can't understand the comment that it hurts the horse!  having had horses who can't bear their manes being pulled I am sure they would have reacted strongly if plaiting hurt.


----------



## B-B (27 June 2011)

And how much do you pay for this benefit?

Rain?

There is nothing nannying about being more supportive to those just starting out.    After all they do pay for it, and will go on to pay for it.

The classes at the lower levels are always the biggest so the starters (those who need hands held) are the bread and butter as well as the future.


----------



## Lolo (27 June 2011)

B-B, I'm almost insulted on behalf of the riders who you are saying are completely scatter-brained, shy and generally incompetent of asking "Can I take my jacket off as it is fecking hot?"... PC children (children!) manage to go and ask their dressage judges if it's okay without their entire day falling to pieces!


----------



## B-B (27 June 2011)

Luci07 said:



			And I like to see standards maintained. In reality, you only get out to a few events and I take pride in turning myself and my horse out to the best standard I can. That for me means plaiting - I can't understand the comment that it hurts the horse!  having had horses who can't bear their manes being pulled I am sure they would have reacted strongly if plaiting hurt.
		
Click to expand...

Your choice.


----------



## B-B (27 June 2011)

Lolo said:



			B-B, I'm almost insulted on behalf of the riders who you are saying are completely scatter-brained, shy and generally incompetent of asking "Can I take my jacket off as it is fecking hot?"... PC children (children!) manage to go and ask their dressage judges if it's okay without their entire day falling to pieces!
		
Click to expand...

Quite the opposite. 

Taking jackets off has nothing to do with the judge....its in the rule book  (my original point?)

I would hope PC children would find another way to ask.


----------



## kerilli (27 June 2011)

i agree with Luci07, and for me it's about respect for the judges, officials etc. yes, plaiting takes a little while (i take a minute per plait if using elaccy bands) but it's worth it. 
ditto wearing a jacket, it's only for 5 mins or so (i put mine on a few mins before my test if it's a really hot day) and worth it to look smart. i've done dressage in 35 degrees with no breeze at all, it was like an oven, compared to that anything's cool!
i hate seeing standards slipping. at ALW BE a few years back someone was warming up for the novice on a grey, which not only wasn't plaited (the only 1 i saw there that wasn't) it was also absolutely filthy, covered in stable stains... no excuse for that imho.    good turnout is part and parcel of competing, isn't it... or, why bother?


----------



## B-B (27 June 2011)

It is not.  

Judges are not offended.  The horse was marked on its way of going and would not have lost marks for the above.  Its not showing.  I thought everyone knew the rules?

Its your choice.


----------



## Lolo (27 June 2011)

B-B said:



			Quite the opposite. 

Taking jackets off has nothing to do with the judge....its in the rule book

I would hope PC children would find another way to ask.
		
Click to expand...

PC it's the judge's discretion, so polite children ask the judge and then there's an announcement put out that arena x will let you go jacket-less.

To be honest, I don't see what the problem is. Could you really not spare 5 minutes to ask someone a relatively simple question, or is your day really that horrendously hectic?

kerilli- totally with you. Plaiting takes 20 minutes with bands, 40 with thread (and the horse gets very excited and spins, or it would be less). Al has to warm up in her jacket (her horse loses all focus if you stop) and managed a test on Sunday at midday in an indoor school with no ventilation- it was an oven in there! Why bother complaining- a nice jacket looks smart and I've never felt restricted by mine.


----------



## B-B (27 June 2011)

Sorry, its in the rules.  Its the organisers decision.

People dont ask and I did encourage people to, but they are under the assumption that its is the rule and they would be penalized.

As with your comment..some dont know every rule.

Rule 42
N.B. At the discretion of the Organiser, competitors may be permitted to ride without coats in excessively
hot weather,


----------



## Jane_Lou (27 June 2011)

I think it was last year at Milton Keynes they put a notice up to say you could ride without a jacket as long as you have sleeves - short sleeves were acceptable. It was very hot but K warmed up without her jacket for both DR and SJ and then popped it on at the very last minute. I am a bit old school tbh and I think it has spread to her as she would not consider not wearing her jacket. I had clipped the pony out the day before by the way so he was nice naked and comfortable, he barely broke a sweat even after xc!


----------



## B-B (27 June 2011)

Again, your choice.

Perhaps BE could add a note here http://www.britisheventing.com/page.asp?section=749&sectionTitle=What+to+Do+on+The+Day+of+The+Event

If its not too nannying? But then reading through it....


----------



## Princecharming (27 June 2011)

I'd be embarrassed to do any dressage test without plaits in. I tend to pull my plaits out for x country if I have time (I have no groom) I also don't really see how doing a dressage test in a jacket and thin shirt is any cooler than doing x country in a body protector, and the riders seem to manage that ok without moaning and fainting. I totally agree with the pp who said maybe the rider had not had sufficient fuel and fluids inside them. I like the tradition of it all, and every rider I've seen out has been smart, grey horses are scrubbed even though we all know they come back from x country a mess a lot of the time, and I see children with plaited horses that they've obviously plaited themselves but fair play to them, I'd rather see a child with a horse like that than a/one that hasn't bothered to plait or b/ is stood screeching at their well paid groom because they haven't won! I've done PC as a child and I've done a bit of stressage, but I can honestly say that BE has been the nicest, fairest and friendliest environment I've ever been part of. I think that people nowadays just complain for the sake of complaining. And as said before if you personally are too hot, then go and ask someone if you may remove your jacket, its your choice, but I for one wont be removing mine, or taking horses in with a mane flopping about.


----------



## B-B (27 June 2011)

This Sunday was the hottest day of the year...with very high humidity.

I dont think anyone cold drink enough and warm up in these conditions.

Riders dont realize how dehydrated they are getting when they are concentrating.  

Im not talking about a sunny day.  Its a health and safety issue in such extreme conditions.

There were some horrible shades of purple on horseback...and no one was complaining.


----------



## TarrSteps (27 June 2011)

B-B said:



			People dont ask and I did encourage people to, but they are under the assumption that its is the rule and they would be penalized.

As with your comment..some dont know every rule.
		
Click to expand...

So after you told the people it wasn't a rule, especially since you have worked as an official, why didn't one of them ask?

As far as not knowing every rule . . . is there not anything in the paperwork to the affect of "ignorance of the rules is not an excuse"?  I know this is a very minor point and I'm well aware that people do not read the rule book from cover to cover but it's suggested they do, especially if they are new to the sport and/or lack qualified help, so if they choose not to, that's really their look out.  There are far more important and potentially serious rules people need to know, which is a good reason to not just tell them rules as they apply but encourage them to do their research.

I do see why you're making your point re people coming in to the sport but presumably not everyone on the day was new.

Interestingly, jackets are fairly regularly excused in Canada (sometimes an official or organiser makes the call on their own, sometimes someone asks and then they do) but quite often people choose to ride in them anyway, especially if it's a big show and/or they might want photos.  I don't think anyone thinks they'll be penalised, they do it because they want to uphold the traditions/look neat/live up to their own standards.  Same with braiding, most people know it's not a rule but it's their choice, like having neat tack and a clean horse.  Sometimes people don't - they run late, the horse object (some really do) - and judges still use them if their performance warrants it.


----------



## ajn1610 (27 June 2011)

B-B said:



			This Sunday was the hottest day of the year...with very high humidity.

I dont think anyone cold drink enough and warm up in these conditions.

Riders dont realize how dehydrated they are getting when they are concentrating.  

Im not talking about a sunny day.  Its a health and safety issue in such extreme conditions.

There were some horrible shades of purple on horseback...and no one was complaining.
		
Click to expand...

If no one was complaining perhaps you are the only one with a problem? Most all these replies have disagreed with you and it seems most posters don't feel it's unreasonable to wear a jacket for a few minutes during a test. I don't think you can assume everyone there was too stupid/lazy to read or understand the rules. Perhaps they are merely prepared to suffer some mild discomfort for the sake of good form and pride in their appearance. As you've pointed out repeatedly - it's a matter of personal choice. What you pay to compete is irrelevant when talking about your manner towards officials since they don't get paid and they are doing you a favour by giving their time so you can enjoy your sport. Also I disagree that riders are unable to manage their fluids. It's obvious it's going to be hot and riders need to take care of themselves and their horses accordingly.


----------



## B-B (27 June 2011)

Their belief that they would be penalized was stronger and not prepared to take the risk.

This was an exceptionally hot day, not just your average hot summers day.

Quote: _and judges still use them if their performance warrants it._

Sorry, I dont understand what this means?


----------



## B-B (27 June 2011)

ajn1610 said:



			If no one was complaining perhaps you are the only one with a problem? Most all these replies have disagreed with you and it seems most posters don't feel it's unreasonable to wear a jacket for a few minutes during a test. I don't think you can assume everyone there was too stupid/lazy to read or understand the rules. Perhaps they are merely prepared to suffer some mild discomfort for the sake of good form and pride in their appearance. As you've pointed out repeatedly - it's a matter of personal choice. What you pay to compete is irrelevant when talking about your manner towards officials since they don't get paid and they are doing you a favour by giving their time so you can enjoy your sport. Also I disagree that riders are unable to manage their fluids. It's obvious it's going to be hot and riders need to take care of themselves and their horses accordingly.
		
Click to expand...

Goodness!!  No one has said anything about riders being lazy or stupid...apart from you.   No one is suggesting bad manners to officials.  Very odd.

I was not competing and didnt have a personal problem with this but was alarmed at the condition of the riders.   Heath and safety / riders welfare is more important than 'standards'.

A small addition to the BE website or a word from the tack checker would suffice!


----------



## TarrSteps (27 June 2011)

I think we're all a bit confused.  Is the point that you want people to be told that they have the right to not wear jackets?  I suspect there's a good argument to be made there that officials and organisers cannot spend their whole day telling people the rules.  After all, there are about a million health and safety aspects to riding horses, covered by the rules and not - they would spend their whole day on the subject.  Re a comment from the tack steward, presumably this would only apply if jackets HAVE been excuse, at which point it's presumably been announced, so if someone is still wearing a jacket it's a personal choice.

Or is it that officials should be more proactive and excuse jackets at a certain point?  Then surely the better solution would be to have a rule saying jackets will be excused at such and such a temperature?  

Or that is should be "proven" that not wearing a jacket affects scores.  (I think most people's experience is, in situations where jackets have been officially excused, it doesn't.)

Out of curiosity, what have people done up to this point?  Jacket and shirt technology has come on leaps and bounds in the last couple of decades and even allowing for global warming, I don't remember it being a serious issue in the past.

In the great scheme of things yesterday was not THAT hot - lots of people ride regularly in hotter.  And in the massive amount of work that's been done on horse and rider cooling, resulting in all sorts of adaptations to the sport, I can't remember anyone saying wearing modern-type jackets for a total of 10 minutes was a significant factor.  I agree, it's weird to be running around in dark, heavy jackets in the blistering heat, but we did all know that going in. 

I think maybe everyone is getting in a twist about this because (other than the fact that we're all hot and cranky  ) is because there is so much pressure now to "take care" of riders, especially in eventing.  And there is some argument that "over nannying" them (vs, say, promoting safety equipment, better jump design etc.) actually, over time, makes things LESS safe.  Honestly, no one choosing to do a dangerous sport like evening SHOULD need looking after.  (And if they don't know it's a dangerous sport . . .I don't know what to say about that.)  So the jacket thing is totally unimportant and the least of anyone's worries, but it raises that spectre of when do people doing such a dangerous sport have to read the rules and apply their own safety standards.  Let's face it, eventing is a health and safety nightmare all over!


----------



## B-B (27 June 2011)

All answered in my points, including attachments, above.

Yes, it was that hot.


----------



## Little Legs Eventing (28 June 2011)

Really?! I know it's hot but for the sake of 4 minutes or so in a jacket, just man up and get on with it!!!


----------



## B-B (28 June 2011)

A slight underestimation.

Hopefully more will now be aware and ask.


----------



## millitiger (28 June 2011)

When I was eventing last year at Wolverhampton and it was 32C, the steward in the warm up was by the entrance and told everyone as they walked in that they didn't need their jackets on.

tbh, if they hadn't of told me, I wouldn't have thought to ask as I thought is was the steward's descretion and didn't realise it was something you could request as a rider.


----------



## hairycob (28 June 2011)

It amazes me that so many people compete BE without apparently reading the rules. I do XC collecting ring & I can guarantee that every time a few will turn up for BE90 unaware that they should have they're hat tagged or that they must have an armband, so ignorance of the rules around jackets & hot weather is no surprise. TBH it's the competitors responsibility to find out the rules before they compete.


----------



## NR99 (28 June 2011)

B-B said:



			.  

There are no rules for plaiting...and as said before no impact on marks.
.
		
Click to expand...

Not strictly true, I have written for several judges who have a bug bear about this, they feel the rider should bother to make the effort, ok it's at the lower levels but it did impact on the score given.



Luci07 said:



			And I like to see standards maintained. In reality, you only get out to a few events and I take pride in turning myself and my horse out to the best standard I can. That for me means plaiting - I can't understand the comment that it hurts the horse!  having had horses who can't bear their manes being pulled I am sure they would have reacted strongly if plaiting hurt.
		
Click to expand...

Agree completely.



Lolo said:



			B-B, I'm almost insulted on behalf of the riders who you are saying are completely scatter-brained, shy and generally incompetent of asking "Can I take my jacket off as it is fecking hot?"... PC children (children!) manage to go and ask their dressage judges if it's okay without their entire day falling to pieces!
		
Click to expand...

This exactly, they can bath, plait, prepare their horse, look after it all year round and get it eventing fit but are not capable of reading a rule book or asking if their jacket should be removed.



kerilli said:



			i agree with Luci07, and for me it's about respect for the judges, officials etc. yes, plaiting takes a little while (i take a minute per plait if using elaccy bands) but it's worth it. 
ditto wearing a jacket, it's only for 5 mins or so (i put mine on a few mins before my test if it's a really hot day) and worth it to look smart. i've done dressage in 35 degrees with no breeze at all, it was like an oven, compared to that anything's cool!
i hate seeing standards slipping. at ALW BE a few years back someone was warming up for the novice on a grey, which not only wasn't plaited (the only 1 i saw there that wasn't) it was also absolutely filthy, covered in stable stains... no excuse for that imho.    good turnout is part and parcel of competing, isn't it... or, why bother?
		
Click to expand...

Agree with all of the above.



hairycob said:



			It amazes me that so many people compete BE without apparently reading the rules. I do XC collecting ring & I can guarantee that every time a few will turn up for BE90 unaware that they should have they're hat tagged or that they must have an armband, so ignorance of the rules around jackets & hot weather is no surprise. TBH it's the competitors responsibility to find out the rules before they compete.
		
Click to expand...

Everyone has a responsibility to read the rules for their competition, don't they?

R rode in Sussex this weekend and it was crushingly hot, some had taken their jackets off.  She took it off for warm up but chose to put it on for her test as she said she did not a) feel properly dressed b) felt it was respectful to the judge and c) new it would be a damn sight worse on the XC.  She is 16 and capable of making the decision.  She was fine in her jacket for the dressage, however on the XC she came back feeling really faint due to wearing her Point 2 and Rodney Powell which she said was far hotter than her tweed.

I really do think credit should be given to those competing, they are perfectly capable of asking.  I don't believe they are worried about asking due to the ramifications, IME it will be more likely that they can't be bothered and would rather someone else did it.


----------



## B-B (28 June 2011)

NR99 then where on the dressage sheet did the judges deduct the marks? 

The test is judged according to the scales.  Absolutely no nentuon of turn out in the scales.  Judges are not directed to dedect marks for turn out.  

Please cotact BD for clarification.

Why then do you need a tack check if the rules are clear?

Do you get that at akk BSJA or BD?


----------



## B-B (28 June 2011)

Sorry should read all BSJA.....cant edit on iphone


----------



## meardsall_millie (28 June 2011)

B-B said:



			Why then do you need a tack check if the rules are clear?

Do you get that at akk BSJA or BD?
		
Click to expand...

There is no tack check at BE (unlike PC/RC) - if a judge/steward notices something amiss, or another competitor complains then you can be pulled over and checked but you are not checked as a matter of course before competing


----------



## kerilli (28 June 2011)

B-B said:



			NR99 then where on the dressage sheet did the judges deduct the marks? 

The test is judged according to the scales.  Absolutely no nentuon of turn out in the scales.  Judges are not directed to dedect marks for turn out.  

Please cotact BD for clarification.

Why then do you need a tack check if the rules are clear?

Do you get that at akk BSJA or BD?
		
Click to expand...

have you ever written for a judge, or been a judge?
there might not be a box with "marks for turnout" written on it, but the overall impression does make a difference, and might make a judge decide to give a 6 instead of a 7, say. throughout. 
i've written for quite a lot of very good judges and imho the overall picture does make a difference. not necessarily whether someone is wearing a jacket or not, but whether the horse is turned out nicely or, in the case i described above, FILTHY as well as being unplaited.


----------



## Saratoga (28 June 2011)

Having collapsed at a ODE and been very seriously ill from overheating, I ALWAYS ask if I can take my jacket off on a hot day. They can only say no. Normally this leads to others taking theirs off when they realise they can.

I've also ridden at an U21 International BD competition with no jacket on a scorching day. No mention of it not being smart enough or the 'done thing' then. 

For what it's worth, I think a smart stock shirt tucked in to clean smart jods with a belt looks nicer than a jacket anyway!


----------



## millitiger (28 June 2011)

meardsall_millie said:



			There is no tack check at BE (unlike PC/RC) - if a judge/steward notices something amiss, or another competitor complains then you can be pulled over and checked but you are not checked as a matter of course before competing 

Click to expand...

You are checked as a matter of course by some stewards/ at some events.

At 2 x BE events I went to last season a steward checked EVERY horse before they went down to their dressage arenas.


----------



## oldvic (28 June 2011)

The reason there can be a tack check is that some less scrupulous riders will use a bit that is not dressage legal if they think nobody is checking. I have known a well known rider use a doctor bristol or a copper roller before now!!! It is however their responsibility to get it right. A tack steward can only point out to them if they are wrong and report back but not eliminate them.


----------



## meardsall_millie (28 June 2011)

millitiger said:



			You are checked as a matter of course by some stewards/ at some events.

At 2 x BE events I went to last season a steward checked EVERY horse before they went down to their dressage arenas.
		
Click to expand...

Gosh, I must have been very lucky then.  In all the *ahem* 'many' () years that I've been eventing, I have never been checked, nor have I seen other competitors checked as a matter of course, other than at PC/RC events. 

I wonder if that was an 'over officious' steward that had taken it upon themselves to do it, or if they had been asked to do it by the organisers? 

FEI, I accept, is a different matter.......

ETA: Oldvic - I realise that there 'can' be a tack check, my point was simply that it generally doesn't happen


----------



## B-B (28 June 2011)

But they dont feel the need at BD.  

It would perhaps be the ideal time to mention the jackets...only on exceptionally hot days of course.


----------



## Lolo (28 June 2011)

I dressage steward at BE events local to me, and tack check. It's quite interesting- one man was convinced he was doing an Intermediate on his horse and had a double bridle in. He was definitely doing the ON- he trotted off for the quickest bit change in history!


----------



## meardsall_millie (28 June 2011)

Well there's no accounting for those who don't even know which class they're in lolo.  As far as I know there's no rule that excludes numpties from entering!


----------



## NR99 (28 June 2011)

meardsall_millie said:



			Well there's no accounting for those who don't even know which class they're in lolo.  As far as I know there's no rule that excludes numpties from entering!
		
Click to expand...





B-B said:



			NR99 then where on the dressage sheet did the judges deduct the marks? 

The test is judged according to the scales.  Absolutely no nentuon of turn out in the scales.  Judges are not directed to dedect marks for turn out.  

Please cotact BD for clarification.

Why then do you need a tack check if the rules are clear?

Do you get that at akk BSJA or BD?
		
Click to expand...

The judges in question didn't write a deduction anywhere, but just because it is not shown on the sheet as somewhere that they can note a deduction does not mean it does not go on.  In the same way that a judge at a BE event that I was writing for gave Rodney Powell an extra mark becuase she liked him as he 'is a cheeky boy' there was no box for extra marks for cheeky boys either


----------



## SpruceRI (28 June 2011)

Princecharming said:



			I'd be embarrassed to do any dressage test without plaits in.
		
Click to expand...

I sometimes do BD without plaiting, did some BE without plaiting and regularly do RC without plaiting.  And I'm never the only one.  I don't see what the big deal is.

You see pictures in H&H magazine of dressage riders unplaited.  Did H&H refuse to put them in the mag because they looked scruffy?  No.

A clean brushed horse looks perfectly nice to me.

And having written for some dressage judges in the past, they told me they didn't care a fig what people did, they weren't marking them on turnout after all.


----------



## SpruceRI (28 June 2011)

NR99 said:




In the same way that a judge at a BE event that I was writing for gave Rodney Powell an extra mark becuase she liked him as he 'is a cheeky boy' there was no box for extra marks for cheeky boys either 

Click to expand...

Then she was a dodgy judge surely???

We were once stood with a few people at a water jump at a BE Event.  Along came a professional rider on a young horse who initially refused to go into the water.  It leapt about and clearly stepped back several times, but the judge ignored all that, and was heard to say to her companion that 'she'd let it go [with no penalties] because the horse was young!

Errghhh no!

It was reported back by a bystander and the horse was quite rightly eliminated after completing.

This sort of thing shouldn't come into it.  Each horse should be judged equally on it's merit, otherwise the whole thing becomes a farce.


----------



## NR99 (28 June 2011)

madhossy said:



			Then she was a dodgy judge surely???.
		
Click to expand...

Yep , I wouldn't want to write for her again.


----------



## Fairy Dust (28 June 2011)

I was at Milton Keynes on Sunday and it was bl**dy hot but for goodness sake it is only a couple of minutes that you have to wear it for. If you were that hot you would surely warm up without your jacket (you are very stupid if you think you will have marks deducted whilst warming up!!) and then either stick it out for a few mins while you do your test or ask a Steward, you have to speak to them anyway to tell them you are there etc and ready for your test/sj round.

On Sunday they did actually let us do tests without jackets but I kept mine on as I think it's respectful and it's only for a very short period of time! For Sjing you could also jump without a jacket as long as you had long sleeves but I kept mine on as a) I think it's smarter and b) because I also wanted to get a picture.

I would never dream of not plaiting or washing my horse, it is resepectful and tradition and pure lazy not to. Just because BD and BS do certain things does not mean BE has to follow. 

I really don't see your issue at all OP, if someone is that hot then simply ask the steward...............why is that so hard???!!!


----------



## chris_j (28 June 2011)

BD now allows you to wear waistcoasts in hot weather, which is great because it's much cooler than a jacket but still covers up the stomach!


----------



## susie2193 (28 June 2011)

I've just read the whole of this post and am amazed.

1. If I thought it was too hot for me to wear my jacket to do a 6 minute dressage test, then I would seriously question as to whether it was to hot to take my horse XC.

2. I am a BSJA judge and in very hot or wet weather the riders will ask if they can jump without jackets/wet weather gear.  The emphasis being on the riders asking, and the answer is usually yes.

3. Do you think the question would ever be asked at a CCI where everyone is in tails, even at CCI*, as it completes the picture.  

Sorry rant over. Dressage is about training and painting a pretty picrture, part of that is in how you turn out yourself and your horse.


----------



## PaddyMonty (28 June 2011)

susie2193 said:



			2. I am a BSJA judge and in very hot or wet weather the riders will ask if they can jump without jackets/wet weather gear.  The emphasis being on the riders asking, and the answer is usually yes.
		
Click to expand...

This has always been the case when I've competed in hot weather.  What normally happens then is the person who asked tells the other riders in the collecting ring that its the case and informs the ring steward in case other riders ask the question.  No big deal.


----------



## susie2193 (28 June 2011)

JunoXV said:



			This has always been the case when I've competed in hot weather.  What normally happens then is the person who asked tells the other riders in the collecting ring that its the case and informs the ring steward in case other riders ask the question.  No big deal.
		
Click to expand...

Either that, or once one person has asked and we say yes.  Believe it or not it often doesn't occur to the judges, until someone asks.  Then it will be announced over the tannoy.  As you say no big deal.


----------



## giveachance (28 June 2011)

B-B, I don't really see what your argument is in all this!!! I have competed B.E for over ten years and have rarely ever done a test without a jacket on, it is perfectly simple to slip your jacket on just before going into a test and make sure that I had drunk lots of fluids before getting on. 

To throw a stick at wasps nest, maybe some of the reason some riders were so purple is because there fitness levels are not really up to scratch, as an unfit person will always struggle in the heat more than a fit person. 

r.e not plaiting for a dressage test is in my opinion disgraceful, it shows a complete lack of respect to judges, stewards and other competitors that have bothered to put the effort in. You are there to present your horse in the best possible way and to show your horse off to the judge, therefore you should turn your horse out to fit with this!!! And anyone who has that much of an issue with taking twenty mins to plait a horse should hog it!!


----------



## kerilli (28 June 2011)

giveachance said:



			B-B, I don't really see what your argument is in all this!!! I have competed B.E for over ten years and have rarely ever done a test without a jacket on, it is perfectly simple to slip your jacket on just before going into a test and make sure that I had drunk lots of fluids before getting on. 

To throw a stick at wasps nest, maybe some of the reason some riders were so purple is because there fitness levels are not really up to scratch, as an unfit person will always struggle in the heat more than a fit person. 

r.e not plaiting for a dressage test is in my opinion disgraceful, it shows a complete lack of respect to judges, stewards and other competitors that have bothered to put the effort in. You are there to present your horse in the best possible way and to show your horse off to the judge, therefore you should turn your horse out to fit with this!!! And anyone who has that much of an issue with taking twenty mins to plait a horse should hog it!!

Click to expand...

Amen to that.
as said above, modern fabrics are far lighter, breathe etc... there really is no excuse at all for looking purple on a hot day. 
think of top riders at Championships at Hong Kong, Atlanta (legendarily hot and humid iirc), in Australia, the U.S. and mainland Europe where the temps soar, plus they're doing a 10 minute test... nobody says they should be out there in shirt sleeves.

B-B, what is your agenda here? that people should be allowed to turn up as scruffy as they like and with their horse looking as if it has just been yanked out of the field and had its tack thrown on?


----------



## TGM (28 June 2011)

NR99 said:




 In the same way that a judge at a BE event that I was writing for gave Rodney Powell an extra mark becuase she liked him as he 'is a cheeky boy' there was no box for extra marks for cheeky boys either 

Click to expand...

Looking at your location, I wonder whether that is the same judge I wrote for once at BE.  She spent half her time waving at the pros as they came past her car and calling things like "Hellllooooo, Pippa!" out of her window.  As you can imagine, the pros got vastly higher marks for their tests, even if they were not always deserved.  

I must add though that is the only time I have ever encountered a facey judge in my many years of writing - everyone else has always judged very fairly, IMO.  I've never heard a judge comment about lack of plaiting either, although usually the unplaited ones tend to be M&Ms, Arabs etc, who are not traditionally plaited anyway.

As for the issue about jackets, I must say it is nice when you do get the all-clear to ride without jackets, but like others have said, at horse trials I would worry about the health/fitness of any rider who couldn't cope with a jacket on for the dressage test when later they have to go XC in long sleeves and a BP.  My daughter managed two showjumping classes and two dressage tests on Sunday in a tweed jacket without fainting or turning purple, although she did remember to drink plenty of water.

As for tack checks at BE, a lot of the stewards are also volunteers at PC/RC so tend to tack check automatically, even although it is not mandatory.  I've stewarded  at BE myself and know there is plenty enough to do anyway, without having to worry about competitor who are too shy or uninformed to ask for permission to remove jackets!


----------



## Baydale (28 June 2011)

NR99 said:



			there was no box for extra marks for cheeky boys either 

Click to expand...

Damn! No wonder Jup got a 40...


----------



## B-B (28 June 2011)

FD -Answers in the posts above.

Lucky you being told you can take your jackets off.


----------



## B-B (28 June 2011)

susie2193 said:



			Dressage is about training and painting a pretty picrture, part of that is in how you turn out yourself and your horse.
		
Click to expand...

Its about training.   

As long as you are turn out within in the rules there are no marks added or deducted for turn out for you or your horse (as mentioned several times over )

No plaiting does not mean your horse is scruffy.  Judges are not offended by this.  There are always scare stories from people who wrote for judges.  There are unlisted/untrained judges judging at intro level so they can say whatever they like...to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Taking jackets off is not always easy if people who are out on their own.  Its not as simple as taking it off...and (repeating myself ) as with some of the misconceptions posted on this thread, they worry they _may_ be penalized.   Okay if youve been competing for 10yrs...but maybe not in your first season.


----------



## oldvic (28 June 2011)

The whole thing about competing is learning to cope when things don't go your way. You have to be able to stay calm and keep your focus when the goalposts move, when somebody upsets your horse, when the class is suddenly running late, the riding in area isn't ideal or any number of other problems that occur. We can't always have our own way and those that cope best with that do best and have the most fun.
Yes, dressage is about the training but turnout in general and plaits in particular enhance the picture. Ok there is the rare horse that goes considerably better unplaited (I had one that competed up to intermediaire 1) but then the mane must be pulled very neatly and quite short. Plaits can be done to enhance the neck and make the outline better and this will help your marks. A judge shouldn't mark a horse down if it's not plaited, just like the rider shouldn't get marks for "being a cheeky boy", but the picture presented can make a difference if the judge is thinking is it nearer 6 or 7?
I get the feeling that you might need to re-think your philosophy for competing B-B or is it a question of you are right and the rest of the world is wrong?!!


----------



## susie2193 (28 June 2011)

oldvic said:



			Yes, dressage is about the training but turnout in general and plaits in particular enhance the picture. Ok there is the rare horse that goes considerably better unplaited (I had one that competed up to intermediaire 1) but then the mane must be pulled very neatly and quite short. Plaits can be done to enhance the neck and make the outline better and this will help your marks. A judge shouldn't mark a horse down if it's not plaited, just like the rider shouldn't get marks for "being a cheeky boy", but the picture presented can make a difference if the judge is thinking is it nearer 6 or 7?
		
Click to expand...

That is exactly what I was trying to say, even though it doesn't say it in the rules, and the judge should mark an unplaited dirty horse the same as the plaited bathed one, this is the real world, and it is the whole picture that gets the marks.


----------



## B-B (28 June 2011)

What has my post to do with my competing?   

No, the judges are far more influenced by correct way of going and are not swayed by those things mentioned above - well apart from one it seems - and there is no way of knowing if the judge mentioned above was trained/listed or not.

My posts from start to finish have been about heath & safety and common sense.

BE (please see the link I have posted) do give a whole web page to advise beginners.  It would be good to see this consideration carried through to competition without the need to be-little those who do not know the rules (even those who think they do, do not as this thread has proved).

Its not about being right or wrong, but...as mentioned (several times) common sense!


----------



## B-B (28 June 2011)

susie2193 said:



			That is exactly what I was trying to say, even though it doesn't say it in the rules, and the judge should mark an unplaited dirty horse the same as the plaited bathed one, this is the real world, and it is the whole picture that gets the marks.
		
Click to expand...


Sorry, but its not.   Horses are marked against the scales only...

Rhythm, Suppleness, Contact, Impulsion, Straighntess...and lastly collection.

The rider is marked on their position and correctness (influence) of the aids.  

This is all printed on the dressage sheets.

There is no where for the judge to mark for turn out.  If the mark is a 6 or 7 the judge would go to a 7 as this is the training.  At the higher levels there is now going to be the opportunity to give a .5 mark.

The judge only has a on average 7mins to mark and comment your test, this does not include time to admire your turn out and be swayed by traditions or feel offended.   Turning up on time in number order would make them much happier!

Simples!


----------



## susie2193 (28 June 2011)

B-B one thing we do agree on is that this post has gone off on a tangent.

To get back to your original comment about wearing jackets in dressage being a H & S issue.  If it is that hot that riding a 6 minute test in a jacket is a health problem, then riding XC in long sleeves and a BP is even more of one.  I take your point about riders being on their own having to warm up in their jacket as well, but those same riders will have to finish the XC, ride/walk back to the lorry and hopefully wash their horse off before they think about cooling themselves down.  

If you feel that strongly why not post on the BE forum, instead of stating on here that you want them to do something. Although I'm not sure what they can do.  Your average person on their own will turn up at and collect their numbers, this may be 2 or 3 hours before they are due to dressage, walk their course, tack up for dressage and ride over to warm up.  At which point do you suggest they are told they don't need to wear their jacket ? As you said if they are on their own it is too late by the time they get to the warmup.  When they collect thir number the weather may be very different to that when they do their test.


----------



## B-B (28 June 2011)

Thanks Susie.

Perhaps after reading this, more will ask.

I think I will ask BE if they could add a comment to their 'starting out' page.


----------



## hottoddy (28 June 2011)

I paid alot of money for my jacket, and rarely have time to iron the shirt that goes underneath it, whatever the temperature my jacket is staying on!!


----------



## smac (28 June 2011)

WOWZER what a post! I can't really remember the OP tbh. 

I evented at Rackham on Sun- I wore a jacket for the test and the sj, I wore I short sleeve technical top for all three phases- I drunk lots of water and pretty sure I didn't go purple.

I didn't ask if I could remove my jacket, I didn;t notice what other people did. I don't care. Being told I could not wear my jacket would make no difference. My horses owner made a comment about it but I said I was happy to. I told her not to bother the steward.

I managed to fill in my entry, learn my dressage test, sj and xc course. Drive to the event after a 3.30am start (set my own alarm clock) and bath/plait & tack up my horse. To me the easiest part of the day would of been saying "I'm hot please can I not wear my jacket." 

Rider responsibility sorry. Agree whoever said purple faces are to do with fitness. No such thing as bad weather just bad clothing. Go buy a technical top for £30 at a fitness store. and drink a bit of water.

I'm kind of disapointed about this post- I thought it was going to be "I was a steward and no one said thank you" or "such n such event is desperate for help" Not abuse to the stewards to do more- go tell the old doris at the church fair what she is doing wrong at her cake stall instead. Same difference imho.


----------



## B-B (28 June 2011)

Firstly well done for doing so well coping in the heat - with help? Lucky you!! And such considerate owners.   

You are clearly not a first timer so not needing the advice on what you can and cannot do.

Stewards have not been attacked.  Would adding a comment to the BE website (as mentioned above) equate to abuse?

Where do Doris and cakes come into it.

Edited to add...  And sorry to disappoint!


----------



## MagicMelon (29 June 2011)

oldvic said:



			With regard to stocks and show jackets, the purpose of a stock is to support your neck. A silk stock is not that expensive and cooler than a cotton or polyester one. If it is that much of a hardship to wear one then wear ratcatcher with a collar and tie. Jackets are now made in modern materials that are lightweight and easy to wear. If you are worried about a little rain then maybe you should take up an indoor sport.
		
Click to expand...

Its nothing to do with being worried about rain, its the fact that in every other sport, their clothing is very practical - its made specifically of very high tech fabric etc. in a style which doesnt restrict what they're doing.  A silly stock which does nothing to "support the neck" - as if a piece of material could stop you getting say whiplash or a broken neck. Jackets have come on a bit over the years but are still not nearly modern and lightweight enough - they still restrict movement (well perhaps the horrifically expensive ones dont but many of us cant afford those).  WHY cant we ride in a short sleeved shirt with stock?  In my opinion that is still smart and far more practical in hot weather.  In the US, I watched at a SJ event with top level riders - ALL of them wore a smart stock shirt, no jacket.  It was practical to do so and IMO looked so much better for it.  Our sport is still seen as "stuffy" and "snobby", the sooner we embrace modern standards the better.

With regards to the plaiting thing - I definately think that the overall picture DOES have an effect on marks given.  How can you not subconciously expect an immaculate, well turned out flashy type to be better than a scruffy, dirty horse?  I used to get really good marks on my Welsh Cob who had so much presence, he was dark bay and looked flashy - whereas my little unassuming grey never gets great marks even though he is accurate and consistent. I remember with my Welsh in a test once, I did everything late as he was being so strong (we must have missed every marker!) and it felt absolutely dreadful, yet we won the class with some utterly ridiculous 80%!  Looks DO matter in dressage.


----------



## siennamum (29 June 2011)

I think rules regarding turnout should be far more relaxed. I have ridden in really hot weather in a jacket and without a jacket at BE. It's not just a matter of only having the jacket on for 6 minutes. You have to take on and off number bib - which may not go over hat, & it's not safe to take jacket off whilst on board. So you have to get off, and it's just a faff tbh.

I also cannot afford these fabulous modern fabrics which people are talking about and only have a heavy wool hacking jacket, so being able to warm up and ride without it is a godsend.

I cannot for the life of me see what protection a layer of thin cotton will provide to your arms either, so have always been flummoxed by the long sleeves thing.

Bring on the day we can have dark johds I say!!


----------



## Lolo (29 June 2011)

The thin layer of cotton really does help. Wish I had photos of the poor kid that fell off at a SJ rally last year. She was wearing her PC t shirt, and she fell and skidded on her left side- her entire arm was covered in scrapes and friction burns. Long sleeves rip first, so at least your skin doesn't! Wouldn't jump without at least elbow length sleeves (upper arms are more delicate).


----------



## Luci07 (29 June 2011)

When I did steward for dressage at BE, tack checks were always manadatory, as was the quick reminder about boots/whips and tail bandages. Always happy to remind as I know from experience, if you are on your own and focusing on the test, tail bandages can be forgotten (coughs gently!).

Know its off tangent but I still don't understand why people are pressing to NOT make an effort when the compete. Part of BE is the sheer spectacle of it and whatever BE event I have been to, I have always been impressed by the high turnout of horse and rider. I hate it when I have been out to a BSJA show and a large majority of the riders just look plain scruffy and dirty (at the lower levels - not so farther up the scale). BE kit tends to be workmanlike so its not done to the latest/flashiest piece of equipment but people put effort into look smart. Realistically, most one horse amateurs may only run  - what 8 - 10 times in a season? It used to cost me nearly £200 per time out 5 years ago as I had to pay for lorry hire so you can be sure I wanted to make the most of it. I now have a trailer but with the high cost of petrol, am nearly back at what it used to cost me to rent a space on a box. 

And even when back in the dark ages when I first started out competing, if it was really really hot, I never had any problems asking to remove my jacket..


----------



## Jul (29 June 2011)

madhossy said:



			I sometimes do BD without plaiting, did some BE without plaiting and regularly do RC without plaiting.  And I'm never the only one.  I don't see what the big deal is.

A clean brushed horse looks perfectly nice to me.

And having written for some dressage judges in the past, they told me they didn't care a fig what people did, they weren't marking them on turnout after all.
		
Click to expand...

I know this is off topic to the original post, but I absolutely agree 100%

A clean brushed horse with a neatly pulled mane is still a horse, isn't it?! Why do people feel so strongly that they have to 'look the part' when what is being judged is the way your horse has been trained? There is a difference, though, in turning up with a scruffy unbrushed horse covered in stable stains to one who is clean and well-presented but simply not plaited.



giveachance said:



			And anyone who has that much of an issue with taking twenty mins to plait a horse should hog it!!

Click to expand...

It takes me 45 mins to plait. Granted I don't do it that much, but I HATE it with a passion, and I certainly don't want to hog my horses' manes thank you - they have lovely, neat manes which suit them fine as they are, no need to roll them up into silly little balls! (I know you were being tongue-in-cheek with the hogging comment!)



siennamum said:



			It's not just a matter of only having the jacket on for 6 minutes. ........
I also cannot afford these fabulous modern fabrics which people are talking about and only have a heavy wool hacking jacket, so being able to warm up and ride without it is a godsend.
		
Click to expand...

No, precisely, it isn't. If you are on your own, or have a horse that needs to be kept working, it may well be that your jacket is either on for the entire warm-up + test, or off.

Ditto with the heavy wool jacket, I find it extremely uncomfortable in the heat. I am one of those riders however, who would most definitely ask if I could compete without it if the weather conditions warranted it.

However, I really don't see why so many have taken issue with the OP. On Sunday at MK, when we went to report to the (very friendly) dressage steward, we were told 'oh by the way, you don't need to wear a jacket'. This took her oh, all of about 4 seconds to say and was much appreciated, although we had already realised this was the case by looking around us.

OP is pointing out that a lot don't seem to realise that it is an option and instead suffer on in the heat, warming up (probably without a helper) and getting hotter and hotter. Yes, they should read the rules. No, it isn't the responsibility of the steward to tell them the rules..........
But it doesn't hurt to be friendly and helpful does it?!


----------



## TGM (29 June 2011)

Jul said:



			However, I really don't see why so many have taken issue with the OP.
		
Click to expand...

I think the reason that people have taken issue with the OP are:

1. She is putting the blame on the organizers and stewards (and these are people who are usually unpaid and hard-working and without whom the eventers would not be able to enjoy their sport), rather than focussing on competitors taking responsibility for knowing the rules. I agree it doesn't take long for a steward to mention about jackets, but where do we stop - do we also have to make sure they know not to start before the bell, that they mustn't use their voice during the test, etc., in addition to the normal procedures of checking they have taken off boots/bandages, dropped their whips and all this while other people are queueing up to ask where their arena is, are we running on time, how many to go before them, can they slot in later because the lorry broke down etc.  Most stewards are helpful and friendly and will help lone competitors by removing boots, holding whips etc., if asked, but they shouldn't be castigated on a public forum if they omit to remind competitors that they can remove their jackets in hot weather!

2. She is making it out that the wearing of jackets for dressage in hot weather is a health and safety risk, which seems weird when we know that the competitors have to then go onto complete a XC course in a body protector.  (If someone's health and/or fitness isn't good enough to cope with the heat, surely it is better to find that out during the dressage than when they are halfway round a XC course!)

If the OP had just posted along the lines of "Just to let people know, they can ask for permission to ride without jackets without being penalised", it wouldn't have sparked such discussion!


----------



## Swirlymurphy (29 June 2011)

With apologies to all who know me, I think I must be a dinosaur   As a BE steward/PC committee member/ex-competitor, I would just like to say the following:

Competitors should ask if they want to take their jackets off.  It is not for anyone else - official or otherwise - to act as their nanny and second-guess their wishes.  There are more pressing H&S issues than jackets in hot weather, and as has already been said, you are not talking about spending hours in the jackets.  Frankly, unfit and overweight competitors are far more of a worry (and I speak as an unfit and overweight (ex) competitor!)

Plaiting is a matter of respect for the landowners, the organisers and your other competitors.  It's the same as hunting.  

There is nothing wrong with insisting on certain standards of dress - it doesn't need to be expensive or brand new, but clean and in keeping with the norm.

And don't get me started on coloured tack or bling....

Right - I'm back off to my cave now.  Anyone care to join me?


----------



## rvb99 (29 June 2011)

The system of dress will eventually be forced to change. Summers are getting hotter and sooner or later there will be somebody with serious heat exhaustion. Perhaps only when there is an accident will BE and other associations sit up and listen. 

Here in France we are often confronted by very high temperatures variations (we've competed in 39degC), but common sense prevails and dress codes can change ad-hoc. FFE approved short sleeves in summer and FFE approved waterproof jackets in winter - simple , pragmatic and FFE make some money out of it. 

Apologies in advance, but my relatively short exposure to competing in the UK suggest that it is run by a fairly conservative bunch that are resistant to change of any type, even if the need is blindingly obvious.
regs Richard


----------



## B-B (29 June 2011)

Totally agree Richard

Ive gone from OP to She?


----------



## TGM (29 June 2011)

B-B said:



			Ive gone from OP to She?
		
Click to expand...

Slip of the keyboard due to rapid typing, as I have much more pressing things on my mind at the moment than trying to work out the gender of the OP!


----------



## oldvic (29 June 2011)

rvb99 said:



			The system of dress will eventually be forced to change. Summers are getting hotter and sooner or later there will be somebody with serious heat exhaustion. Perhaps only when there is an accident will BE and other associations sit up and listen. 

Here in France we are often confronted by very high temperatures variations (we've competed in 39degC), but common sense prevails and dress codes can change ad-hoc. FFE approved short sleeves in summer and FFE approved waterproof jackets in winter - simple , pragmatic and FFE make some money out of it. 

Apologies in advance, but my relatively short exposure to competing in the UK suggest that it is run by a fairly conservative bunch that are resistant to change of any type, even if the need is blindingly obvious.
regs Richard
		
Click to expand...

I don't see what BE has to sit up and listen too. It is quite permissible to ride without jackets with the BE steward's approval. They are not going to say no when it is very hot/humid. The actual temperature is irrelevant, it is the humidity that is the problem. Having said that, nobody had a problem in Hong Kong, Atlanta or Barcelona which get far hotter than here, so it doesn't need to become the norm, just for really hot/humid weather. Equally long sleeves for xc are not compulsory, just recommended, so there is no problem there. Therefore I think BE have the balance between upholding standards but being sensible.


----------



## B-B (29 June 2011)

TGM said:



			I think the reason that people have taken issue with the OP are:

1. She is putting the blame on the organizers and stewards (and these are people who are usually unpaid and hard-working and without whom the eventers would not be able to enjoy their sport), rather than focussing on competitors taking responsibility for knowing the rules. I agree it doesn't take long for a steward to mention about jackets, but where do we stop - do we also have to make sure they know not to start before the bell, that they mustn't use their voice during the test, etc., in addition to the normal procedures of checking they have taken off boots/bandages, dropped their whips and all this while other people are queueing up to ask where their arena is, are we running on time, how many to go before them, can they slot in later because the lorry broke down etc.  Most stewards are helpful and friendly and will help lone competitors by removing boots, holding whips etc., if asked, but they shouldn't be castigated on a public forum if they omit to remind competitors that they can remove their jackets in hot weather!

!
		
Click to expand...

Yes it takes a lot of hard working people to make it work, but it is also expensive for the competitor.  They are not getting anything for free!

Other disciplines do not feel the need to check boots/bandages, whips, etc...this is left to the judge.

Too much nannying perhaps?


----------



## AandK (29 June 2011)

TGM said:



			I think the reason that people have taken issue with the OP are:

1. She is putting the blame on the organizers and stewards (and these are people who are usually unpaid and hard-working and without whom the eventers would not be able to enjoy their sport), rather than focussing on competitors taking responsibility for knowing the rules. I agree it doesn't take long for a steward to mention about jackets, but where do we stop - do we also have to make sure they know not to start before the bell, that they mustn't use their voice during the test, etc., in addition to the normal procedures of checking they have taken off boots/bandages, dropped their whips and all this while other people are queueing up to ask where their arena is, are we running on time, how many to go before them, can they slot in later because the lorry broke down etc.  Most stewards are helpful and friendly and will help lone competitors by removing boots, holding whips etc., if asked, but they shouldn't be castigated on a public forum if they omit to remind competitors that they can remove their jackets in hot weather!

2. She is making it out that the wearing of jackets for dressage in hot weather is a health and safety risk, which seems weird when we know that the competitors have to then go onto complete a XC course in a body protector.  (If someone's health and/or fitness isn't good enough to cope with the heat, surely it is better to find that out during the dressage than when they are halfway round a XC course!)

If the OP had just posted along the lines of "Just to let people know, they can ask for permission to ride without jackets without being penalised", it wouldn't have sparked such discussion!
		
Click to expand...

Agree!


----------



## AandK (29 June 2011)

B-B said:



			Other disciplines do not feel the need to check boots/bandages, whips, etc...this is left to the judge.

Too much nannying perhaps?

Click to expand...

Damn this forum! I just typed out a long reply and lost it... 

The short of it was, and I have stewarded for BE dressage several times, that the ultimate responsibility lies with the competitior to know the rules. (I read the rule book cover to cover when I joined BE!)  
We can help people, but only if they want to be helped or ask for help!


----------



## oldvic (29 June 2011)

B-B said:



			Yes it takes a lot of hard working people to make it work, but it is also expensive for the competitor.  They are not getting anything for free!

Other disciplines do not feel the need to check boots/bandages, whips, etc...this is left to the judge.

Too much nannying perhaps?

Click to expand...

It is expensive for the competitor but volunteers give up a whole day/w/e for nothing but the love of the sport or to help a friend so that competitors can partake in their sport. The world doesn't owe competitors and very little is free. Riders do it because they want to compete, it is their choice - pay for your hobby and abide by the rules or don't play!!

Tack regulations are far less in other disciplines so it is easier to check although it is a steward/vet that makes boot and leg checks in show jumping, not the judges. Dressage judges still keep an eye on the riders and make a closer check if they think they need to.


----------



## walker1234 (29 June 2011)

Am I the only one here who has 2 jackets? A tweed one for cold weather and a lightweight plain one for hot weather?  

OP asked why people were wearing tweed in hot weather.  Why indeed!  I wouldn't dream of wearing tweed in hot weather!

I find it bizarre that you need sleeves for SJ but not for XC.  Why's that?


----------



## rvb99 (29 June 2011)

oldvic said:



			I don't see what BE has to sit up and listen too. It is quite permissible to ride without jackets with the BE steward's approval. They are not going to say no when it is very hot/humid. The actual temperature is irrelevant, it is the humidity that is the problem. Having said that, nobody had a problem in Hong Kong, Atlanta or Barcelona which get far hotter than here, so it doesn't need to become the norm, just for really hot/humid weather. Equally long sleeves for xc are not compulsory, just recommended, so there is no problem there. Therefore I think BE have the balance between upholding standards but being sensible.
		
Click to expand...

The comparison with sports professional  is I am afraid quite ridiculous. Most BE members are amateurs and many are teenagers with bodies that react faster and much more adversely to overheating conditions.  The stewards approval is unnecessary red tape that leads to confusion. What do you do in practice? you get a certain % of riders to ask before the stewards react. No, the practical and common sense approach is for the organisers and stewards to make a decision.

As I said, BE can carry on ignoring the problem, or recognise that the weather is changing and do something about it. It is a very simple issue of risk and liability management that is practiced by millions of organisations and companies around the world. Simply ignoring the problem or passing the responsibility to the riders will not wash in the case of a serious incident. 

BTW  There seems little point in prescribing other safety equipment for riders, when the biggest safety concern on a hot day could be through inadequate dress code. 

regs

Richard


----------



## TarrSteps (29 June 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			In the US, I watched at a SJ event with top level riders - ALL of them wore a smart stock shirt, no jacket.  It was practical to do so and IMO looked so much better for it.
		
Click to expand...

Jumper riders are allowed to wear polo shirts during the week, even in the main ring, but still have to wear "formal" dress on the weekend/for Stake classes.  Hunter riders ALWAYS have to wear a jacket, as it's like showing and appearance counts for a lot. 

There are also a few "alternative" (read unrecognised/unaffiliated) sj competitions that, because they are not bound by National/FEI rules encourage riders to compete in polo shirts, usually in their farm colours or similar.  So like xc colours.

Btw, I'm surprised they don't take tack check a bit more seriously here - you wouldn't go to an event or a dressage competition in North America without having your tack checked by a designated Steward.  BUT, in line with FEI regs it's now permissible, even preferred, to have the check done after the test.


----------



## oldvic (29 June 2011)

rvb99 said:



			The comparison with sports professional  is I am afraid quite ridiculous. Most BE members are amateurs and many are teenagers with bodies that react faster and much more adversely to overheating conditions.  The stewards approval is unnecessary red tape that leads to confusion. What do you do in practice? you get a certain % of riders to ask before the stewards react. No, the practical and common sense approach is for the organisers and stewards to make a decision.

As I said, BE can carry on ignoring the problem, or recognise that the weather is changing and do something about it. It is a very simple issue of risk and liability management that is practiced by millions of organisations and companies around the world. Simply ignoring the problem or passing the responsibility to the riders will not wash in the case of a serious incident. 

BTW  There seems little point in prescribing other safety equipment for riders, when the biggest safety concern on a hot day could be through inadequate dress code. 

regs

Richard
		
Click to expand...

The steward's approval is not unnecessary red tape. There has to be a degree of uniformity and it need only take one person to ask. In practise it will probably be a rider or one of their team asks the chief dressage steward who radios to the BE steward who will give the answer straight away. If their is no regulation then people will just not bother, standards drop and the discipline required of a sportsperson is out the window. Before you say that we are talking about amateurs, ALL sportspeople need self-discipline especially in a high risk sport and they need to take responsibility for themselves, not just what they wear but in how they ride i.e. safely.
BE are not ignoring the problem because there is a contingency for very hot weather so the dress code is not inadequate.


----------



## NR99 (29 June 2011)

Am I the only one who thinks this thread has become ridiculous. Nobody has said that BE refuse to allow jackets off in hot weather, so why say BE needs to wake up to the hotter weather we now have in the UK.

I like BE events because of the traditional wear, I like PC because of the tradition and I like hunting so shoot me FGS!

I dislike the often long an unkempt hair at BS but have no beef with those that choose to wear it like that.

Read the rules, stick to them if you don't like them don't participate (please)!


----------



## rvb99 (29 June 2011)

oldvic said:



			If their is no regulation then people will just not bother, standards drop and the discipline required of a sportsperson is out the window. .
		
Click to expand...

I never suggested no regulation, I suggest a single decision made by the organisers so that everybody is aware and their is no confusion. 

Again you seem to  mix-up those people performing a sport on part time basis and children with fully trained sport s professionals Clearly, there is limited understanding of the physical differences , which is rather worrying.


----------



## Rosiefan (29 June 2011)

what NR99 said ^^^


----------



## rvb99 (29 June 2011)

NR99 said:



			Am I the only one who thinks this thread has become ridiculous. Nobody has said that BE refuse to allow jackets off in hot weather, so why say BE needs to wake up to the hotter weather we now have in the UK.

I like BE events because of the traditional wear, I like PC because of the tradition and I like hunting so shoot me FGS!

I dislike the often long an unkempt hair at BS but have no beef with those that choose to wear it like that.

Read the rules, stick to them if you don't like them don't participate (please)!
		
Click to expand...

Dress code comparisons with  BS has nothing to do with the underlying issue, which is one of *safety * It is upto BE to come up with a suitable polcy that is easy to administer, maximises safety and still meets an acceptable  dress code. 

This is a very very simply issue of risk and liability management. Ignore it at your peril. Change will happen, it is just a case of whether it is forced by an incident and the insurers, or whether it will be properly considered and managed by BE.


----------



## AandK (29 June 2011)

Hang on a minute, I thought this thread was about giving/getting permission to not wear a jacket at BE? Since when 'risk and liability management' come into it..?

I expect it is the same for BD and BS re jackets in hot weather. Someone has to be the one to make the decision. Why are eventers any different to dressage riders or show jumpers?
The mind boggles at some of the reactions on this post. If it is a very hot day and you don't want to wear your jacket then ask, it really is that simple! As mentioned before, if you can't make it through a 5 min test without getting heat stroke then how are you expecting to make it through the XC without hospitalisation??

Perhaps we should all take up knitting, at least if it's too hot/too wet you can just carry on indoors!!!


----------



## Lolo (29 June 2011)

What are people even discussing now?


----------



## kerilli (29 June 2011)

I, too, can hardly believe how this thread has somehow turned into criticism of BE and threats about liability and risk management. :O :O
fwiw, i have NEVER been out of breath after a dressage test, however hard i've had to work, although i've been a bit sweaty...! otoh a xc round on a v hot day will leave me dripping with sweat and sometimes a bit out of breath. if anyone really thinks that 

"the biggest safety concern on a hot day could be through inadequate dress code" 

then words almost fail me. if a rider is not fit/conditioned/hydrated enough to stand a 5 minute dressage test in a jacket, they're definitely not fit enough to go xc in the same conditions!

there is a policy, riders can ask, if they don't know the rules that is their problem... i don't see what more there is to it? BE are NOT forcing riders to swelter in jackets on a hot day!

btw, there are a lot of more pressing safety issues than whether someone has a jacket on for dressage imho...


----------



## Lolo (29 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			I, too, can hardly believe how this thread has somehow turned into criticism of BE and threats about liability and risk management. :O :O
fwiw, i have NEVER been out of breath after a dressage test, however hard i've had to work, although i've been a bit sweaty...! otoh a xc round on a v hot day will leave me dripping with sweat and sometimes a bit out of breath. if anyone really thinks that 

"the biggest safety concern on a hot day could be through inadequate dress code" 

then words almost fail me. if a rider is not fit/conditioned/hydrated enough to stand a 5 minute dressage test in a jacket, they're definitely not fit enough to go xc in the same conditions!

there is a policy, riders can ask, if they don't know the rules that is their problem... i don't see what more there is to it? BE are NOT forcing riders to swelter in jackets on a hot day!

*btw, there are a lot of more pressing safety issues than whether someone has a jacket on for dressage imho...*

Click to expand...

This is a matter of life and death, and riders can't be seen taking responsibility for their own welfare! Jeez, kerilli...


----------



## kerilli (29 June 2011)

Lolo said:



			This is a matter of life and death, and riders can't be seen taking responsibility for their own welfare! Jeez, kerilli... 

Click to expand...

haha, exactly... if they're honestly going purple in the face doing a dressage test in jacket in a bit of heat, it might just become a matter of life and death...


----------



## smac (29 June 2011)

Lolo said:



			This is a matter of life and death, and riders can't be seen taking responsibility for their own welfare! Jeez, kerilli... 

Click to expand...

I risk death at the horse eating pots of flowers around the dressage arena. Can I have these removed under H&S...?! Im concerned for my welfare


----------



## B-B (29 June 2011)

oldvic said:



			Dressage judges still keep an eye on the riders and make a closer check if they think they need to.
		
Click to expand...

Not according to BD.


----------



## kerilli (29 June 2011)

trust me, at BE they do.


----------



## B-B (29 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			trust me, at BE they do.
		
Click to expand...

So you are a judge?

They do the same for BE as they do for BD - within the rules.


----------



## rvb99 (29 June 2011)

I don't think I haves mentioned anywhere whethernthis is limited to be or to dressage. Clearly many of the comments show a naive understanding of heat effects, particularly on kids, and an even greater naivity in the obligatory responsibilities of the organisers. The repeated claims about a rider having the ability to ask permission will not transfer 
responsibility. 
Finally this thread let's me start as a newcomer to understand how much BE is dominated by people that are living in the previous century in respect of management and organisational practice. Despite the ridicule and the heads in the sand , the first accident 
will dominate policy from then on. I'm sure it will be a great laugh.


----------



## Baggybreeches (29 June 2011)

Erm re; The long sleeves/short sleeves thing; I used to do BE xc in a t shirt, so I don't actually think there is a rule about sleeves, or there wasn't when I did it.
I am not really that old (honest) but tbh I wouldn't turn out at a show/event/competition with a shirt/tie/stock and jacket regardless of the heat. I can't honestly see that riding a 6 minute dressage test with a jacket is such a tribulation. Get a grip for God's sake if you don't like the dress code or expected standard of turnout then don't bother going.
It is respectful to the judges to make an effort with your turnout, and if you haven't enough pride to look smart then perhaps you need to look at a different sport


----------



## rvb99 (29 June 2011)

Yet again, the  visual image before safety. Are you a medical professional? Clearly not, because most people will not recognise they have heat exhaustion until they actually collapse!


----------



## B-B (29 June 2011)

The respect for judges thing has been mentioned several times.

It has absolutely no bearing on the marks and the judge is writing up one sheet while the writer is trying to find out if the next rider is who they are supposed to be.  The test is started...the judge has approx 7min to give you a reflection of your test in words and numbers and is writing up the summary while the next rider approaches....

They also have to keep an eye out for whips, boots, etc.

7mins.

They are focused on the way of going accoriding to the scale of training which do not mention turn out.   There is nowhere on the sheet to deduct or award marks for turn out and are looking for the higher mark.  So if its a 6/7 they are trained to go UP to 7.

Ask how many were plaited and how many were not at the end of juding up to 40 horses without a couple of short breaks not long enough to make it across the field to stand in line at the portaloo, and they wont be able to tell you.  T

Unplaited does not mean dirty and scruffy - not sure what the Whittakers would make of that idea!

But then you all knew that .


----------



## kerilli (29 June 2011)

B-B said:



			So you are a judge?

They do the same for BE as they do for BD - within the rules.
		
Click to expand...

no, but i have written for a lot of judges.
they keep an eye out, and will do something about it if they think there is an infringement.
dressage stewards usually do a quick visual check too... i was told to when i did it.
they used to check the bit manually but i for one wasn't too happy about them sticking their hands in other people's horses' mouths and then in my horse's mouth straight afterwards, chance of spreading infection etc.


----------



## B-B (29 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			no, but i have written for a lot of judges.
they keep an eye out, and will do something about it if they think there is an infringement.
dressage stewards usually do a quick visual check too... i was told to when i did it.
they used to check the bit manually but i for one wasn't too happy about them sticking their hands in other people's horses' mouths and then in my horse's mouth straight afterwards, chance of spreading infection etc.
		
Click to expand...

So you should also know that the judge is checking more than the rider, as they do for BE and BD.

Strange that only BE need to do this sort of thing at every comp.  Especially in view of the comments above about it being the riders job to know and abide by the rules....then not trusting them to do so!


----------



## kerilli (29 June 2011)

rvb99 said:



			I don't think I haves mentioned anywhere whethernthis is limited to be or to dressage. Clearly many of the comments show a naive understanding of heat effects, particularly on kids, and an even greater naivity in the obligatory responsibilities of the organisers. The repeated claims about a rider having the ability to ask permission will not transfer 
responsibility. 
Finally this thread let's me start as a newcomer to understand how much BE is dominated by people that are living in the previous century in respect of management and organisational practice. Despite the ridicule and the heads in the sand , the first accident 
will dominate policy from then on. I'm sure it will be a great laugh.
		
Click to expand...

first of all, NONE of us on here speak for BE, so i have absolutely no idea what you are going on about... if you have a genuine concern then perhaps you should raise it on the BE forum, or contact someone direct at BE.

i hate to say it, but accidents don't dominate BE policy much, at least in my experience of the sport. this is a RISK sport. people die doing it, and yet the sport rolls on... and the same risks are still there. i've been at an event where we still jumped the jump that someone died at earlier in the day. that's a fact of the sport. so, imho fussing about riders getting overheated really won't impress those of us who have been involved in the sport long enough to have seen some terrible things happen, and yet the sport rolls on. sorry.

it all comes down to RIDER RESPONSIBILITY (or perhaps parental responsibility if we are talking about children), and it is the rider's responsibility to be hydrated enough, fit enough, dressed appropriately, etc.


----------



## AandK (29 June 2011)

rvb99 - Are you talking about the wearing or not wearing of jackets on a very hot/humid day? Because if you are, you don't seem to be making much sense..

BE do allow you to ride without a jacket for dressage and show jumping so I fail to see how 'there will soon be an accident that will bring in a new policy'..? 
Eventing has been going on for years, and on hot summers days too. I remember competing on the hottest day back in 2003 (it was 37.5 degrees that day!) and I don't recall any serious incidents due to the heat.. 

Perhaps you could share with us what steps you would suggest BE take regarding 'risk and liability management' when it comes to the wearing of jackets on a very hot day..?


----------



## B-B (29 June 2011)

If its the riders responsibility, then why do BE tack check.

Why not health check?


----------



## kerilli (29 June 2011)

B-B said:



			So you should also know that the judge is checking more than the rider, as they do for BE and BD.

Strange that only BE need to do this sort of thing at every comp.  Especially in view of the comments above about it being the riders job to know and abide by the rules....then not trusting them to do so!
		
Click to expand...

knowing them and abiding by them are two different things...     not abiding by them can impinge upon horse welfare, and the FEI code of conduct. at a top FEI event i've seen every horse's boots removed, inspected and weighed.  it's very naive to assume that just because everyone knows the rules, everyone will also abide by them all.

as for your first point, i don't understand... are you agreeing that judges do check horse, tack etc?


----------



## B-B (29 June 2011)

AandK said:



			rvb99 - Are you talking about the wearing or not wearing of jackets on a very hot/humid day? Because if you are, you don't seem to be making much sense..

BE do allow you to ride without a jacket for dressage and show jumping so I fail to see how 'there will soon be an accident that will bring in a new policy'..? 
Eventing has been going on for years, and on hot summers days too. I remember competing on the hottest day back in 2003 (it was 37.5 degrees that day!) and I don't recall any serious incidents due to the heat.. 

Perhaps you could share with us what steps you would suggest BE take regarding 'risk and liability management' when it comes to the wearing of jackets on a very hot day..?
		
Click to expand...

Its all in the text in the previous pages.   

Makes perfect sense.


----------



## kerilli (29 June 2011)

B-B said:



			If its the riders responsibility, then why do BE tack check.

Why not health check?
		
Click to expand...

because they might cheat! isn't that obvious?

health check? what, a quick BMI count, blood pressure, "are you fit enough" test, that sort of thing?  sounds like a great idea.


----------



## B-B (29 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			knowing them and abiding by them are two different things...     not abiding by them can impinge upon horse welfare, and the FEI code of conduct. at a top FEI event i've seen every horse's boots removed, inspected and weighed.  it's very naive to assume that just because everyone knows the rules, everyone will also abide by them all.

as for your first point, i don't understand... are you agreeing that judges do check horse, tack etc?
		
Click to expand...

So its the riders responsibility but BE's responsibility to check.  So everyone is worried about insulting judge, jury but not cheating?

Why cant they take the same responsibility for health?

I know what judges do and dont check.   The post I was responding to stated that the stewards check the horse and the judge checks the riders.  Not true.

The judges do the same whether at BD or BE.  If they see something that shouldnt be there, they will not start the test, if they see it in time.


----------



## AandK (29 June 2011)

B-B - Thanks for a most unhelpful response, you make as much sense as rvb99. 

I really don't see what else you expect BE to do regarding jackets and hot weather.  Competitors are not forced to wear them so what is the problem?

A proper answer would be appreciated instead of just saying 'it's all in the previous text'.


----------



## B-B (29 June 2011)

It would be easier for your to read the 13 pages than to cut and paste the answers...and the question has been answered several times.

Sorry to be so unhelpful...especially when you have been so polite.


----------



## LEC (29 June 2011)

The future?

Arrive at BE event collect number, pay extortionate start fee, weigh in, blood test, heart check, quick fitness check - pay additional fee if you have gone up in weight or down in fitness.

Tack up pony and go over to dressage warm up on unplaited pony with quarter marks no longer used but instead stable stains in artful ways. 

A committee will be drawn up from all ages, sexes and as ethnically diverse as possible to check whether everyone is happy with the decisions made on clothing. This decision will be communicated to the steward to inform people what they can wear when they turn up for dressage.

The steward will monitor temperatures and tell you whether you can wear the BE rain coat, jacket, short sleeves or just a wife beater vest. Those who are big boobed will have been warned at the secretaries about high temperatures and additional support may be required if wearing the BE wife beater vest to prevent judges having a heart attack while sitting trot down the centre line commences.


----------



## smac (30 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			health check? what, a quick BMI count, blood pressure, "are you fit enough" test, that sort of thing?  sounds like a great idea.   

Click to expand...

Would solve some problems for the NHS surely?!

I'm pretty sure some where it says in the BE booklet- ensure you and your horse are fit to perform. In schedules it says course hilly/ up hill finish so fit horse required. 

Surely under your OP B-B BE have done what you want.

Please explain to me why you started this topic? Someone has already posted that the steward at MK told them they could remove their jacket-- to which they had already worked out due to other riders. In the rule book it says the jacket can be removed at the discretion on the BE steward. 

Are you saying a note needs to go out on the "Lorry Park" email. "In hot weather you can ask to remove your jacket" or should every event add to their schedule "In the event of hot weather blah blah blah" Sorry I would rather they spent their time making an effort on the ground etc!

Or are you saying that people are frikking crazy riding in extreme weather in hot clothes. I kinda agree with you on that. But I will still wear my jacket. You can attack back that its old tradition, snobby stuck up etc. Im just frikking crazy

To an earlier post of mine you said (non direct quote) how fortunate I was to have help. and that I was clearly no beginner to eventing. Even a beginner (you would hope from a H&S POV) would a.) have help at their first 1 or 2 BE's at least. Or done some homework visiting events before hand. And 2.) they would have done some early prep work/un affiliated competitions etc before so they are not doing a BE as their FIRST EVER competition without some thought to the rules.

LEC- Brilliant. but then we would all have to go home and start the SJ the following day as time wouldn't allow the repeat process. A whole new definition to 3-day eventing... so thats the real reason they stopped roads and tracks- to slowly bring in weigh-ins and fashion discussion


----------



## oldvic (30 June 2011)

B-B said:



			Not according to BD.
		
Click to expand...

Yes they do at BD.



B-B said:



			So you are a judge?

They do the same for BE as they do for BD - within the rules.
		
Click to expand...

So what list are you?



B-B said:



			Yes they do have to keep an eye out for those things and if they see them before the horse goes in they will tell the rider so they don't have to eliminate them.
Yes, they are focused on the scales of training and are not judging the turnout but a) the rider should have enough respect for their horse to show him off well turned out and b) dressage is about the training but presentation and showmanship comes into it. If a mark is 6/7 then the judge doesn't always go up. If it is nearer the 6 then they will go down. If it is very much either/or then they will vary it otherwise the horse could come out as much as 5% higher than it should.
So few horses aren't plaited in BE that it isn't hard to say how many are unplaited at the end of judging 45 or so horses. While it doesn't affect the marks it can accentuate faults like an unsteady head, tipping head or tension through the poll.

Also if it is so hot that it is of such risk to riders then it is probably too hot for the horses so the event will be cancelled - problem solved!!!
		
Click to expand...


----------



## B-B (30 June 2011)

I really dint need ti explain.

OldV you are clearly not listed.  Judges ALWAYS go up.  The look to find the marks not take them away.  

And judged really dont need a horse to be plaited to see a tilt at the poll.   What a dim view you have of judges.

If they see the error before the test they will stop the rider before the test begins or deduct marks according to the new rules. ..or,if the rule book states...eliminate.

And that respect is now after going to the judge..the landowner..BE....is now for the horse.  BE isno different from other disciplines....other than suspecting its riders of cheating!


----------



## B-B (30 June 2011)

Where on the dressage sheet do you mark for showmanship?

Thats a new one for me.


----------



## rvb99 (30 June 2011)

AandK said:



			rvb99 - Are you talking about the wearing or not wearing of jackets on a very hot/humid day? Because if you are, you don't seem to be making much sense..

BE do allow you to ride without a jacket for dressage and show jumping so I fail to see how 'there will soon be an accident that will bring in a new policy'..? 
Eventing has been going on for years, and on hot summers days too. I remember competing on the hottest day back in 2003 (it was 37.5 degrees that day!) and I don't recall any serious incidents due to the heat.. 

Perhaps you could share with us what steps you would suggest BE take regarding 'risk and liability management' when it comes to the wearing of jackets on a very hot day..?
		
Click to expand...


I have already provided a simple proposal, based on what we practice in France  - read my other postings.


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

B-B said:



			I really dint need ti explain.

OldV you are clearly not listed.  Judges ALWAYS go up.  The look to find the marks not take them away.  

And judged really dont need a horse to be plaited to see a tilt at the poll.   What a dim view you have of judges.

If they see the error before the test they will stop the rider before the test begins or deduct marks according to the new rules. ..or,if the rule book states...eliminate.

And that respect is now after going to the judge..the landowner..BE....is now for the horse.  BE isno different from other disciplines....other than suspecting its riders of cheating!
		
Click to expand...

HAHAHAHAHAHA thankyou, B-B, for giving me the best laugh I have EVER had on HHO.

Trust me, I know who "oldvic" is (and no, I won't tell, anyone, and I won't give any hints either), and I can assure you that you have seriously underestimated who you are 'talking' to here. Your first sentence is absolutely risible, trust me on that.   
I can't tell whether you are being argumentative for the sake of it, but honestly, you are wrong on this.


----------



## Lolo (30 June 2011)

B-B said:



			Where on the dressage sheet do you mark for showmanship?

Thats a new one for me.
		
Click to expand...

To me, showmanship is presenting your horse in the best way to maximise whatever they've got to offer. 

I used to maximise the amount of time I'd canter for, ensure any possible transition I did that could be done facing away from the judge (rather than in a corner) was done so the judge didn't see that my horse would open his mouth wide open. I'd minimise my walk by leaving all the transitions downwards as late as possible and moving back up as early as possible... This all meant that I could gloss over the fact that his walk was his worse pace by a long shot, his canter was his best and the judge did give me more marks- especially on the paces and submission section!

That's not good dressage riding or training, that's getting more marks by hiding the worse bits... Watch children who show a lot ride a dressage test- no matter how badly it's going, they do a good job of glossing the worst over because they've learnt showmanship.

I do think it's odd a new member has arrived just in the knickers of time to agree with B-B... And slate BE on every other possible thread!


----------



## rvb99 (30 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			i hate to say it, but accidents don't dominate BE policy much, at least in my experience of the sport. this is a RISK sport. people die doing it, and yet the sport rolls on... and the same risks are still there. i've been at an event where we still jumped the jump that someone died at earlier in the day. that's a fact of the sport. so, imho fussing about riders getting overheated really won't impress those of us who have been involved in the sport long enough to have seen some terrible things happen, and yet the sport rolls on. sorry.

it all comes down to RIDER RESPONSIBILITY (or perhaps parental responsibility if we are talking about children), and it is the rider's responsibility to be hydrated enough, fit enough, dressed appropriately, etc.
		
Click to expand...

I believe you are very misguided as to how responsibility and liability works, and even more misguided as to how organisations are required to manage risk. 

Continuation without proper management or consideration of risks is not an option. If we followed your argument there would be no obligation for helmets, or protector - it would be the riders individual responsibility. 

This is a very simple issue of looking at the risk, before it happens and thinking it through, before it manifests. 

There is no need to dumb down the dress code. Just a *pro-active *one off decision by the organisers so everybody is clear, and then BE approved kit suitable for the prevailing weather. Its done in other countries so why not in the UK -what's so special about the UK ?

I have been in this sport and jumping for a along time, just not in the UK , but as a newcomer to the UK scene I find it is dominated by a rather stuffy and traditional bunch that are living in another century, many of whom think that the Uk is the best in the world and that nothing should change. 

Get practical, get real. Equestrian sport in the UK is not the best in the world and it could learn a lot looking by looking at practices in the other countries.


----------



## NR99 (30 June 2011)

B-B and rvb99 I have re-read the post and like AandK I still don't know what you are talking about.

No doubt B-B you will now say that I am un-educated or unqualified, you seem to attack others and say they are not this or that whilst neither yourself nor rvb99 have stated why you feel you are so much more 'qualified' than others on the subjects above.

I fear you had one tipple to many last night or you are deliberately trying to antagonise other forum members, whichever it is you have been quite rude IMHO. 

Perhaps I am wrong and you can now correct me my by stating what your actual point is rather than 'read the text above' as the points in the text above seem to vary depending on who you are debating with.


----------



## Lolo (30 June 2011)

rvb99, it might not be the *best* but it's *one of* the best in the world (as proven over many years at various events...). The UK is special in that we usually have very low temps compared to others, and we have a system in place to deal with the high temperatures. Some riders will ride in jackets no matter what as they like them. That is their choice, and having suffered heat stroke, you can feel it coming and avert it! If you drink lots, stay cool inbetween bouts of work and do what you feel your body needs then you will be fine.

As this thread shows, 90% of people knew who to ask and if, like me, they didn't they would ask a steward who would know. They would then be allowed to remove their jacket. If they're a one man band as many are, they could even ask a steward to hold stuff for them so they can add and remove clothing as necessary- when I steward, I'm often seen holding whips, boots bandages and coats for various riders as they complete their tests.


----------



## B-B (30 June 2011)

K If the poster is listed then you certainly have more to worry about than I do...and best to keep laughing.

NR99 I would say anyone us uneducated or unqualified...nowthat would be rude!


----------



## B-B (30 June 2011)

Sorry. NR99...joys of iphones...

I wouldnt say that of anyone.  And havent.


----------



## rvb99 (30 June 2011)

Lolo said:



			I do think it's odd a new member has arrived just in the knickers of time to agree with B-B... And slate BE on every other possible thread!
		
Click to expand...

Then I guess you must be taking about me ;-) . I have been in equestrian sport for many years and have recently become acquainted with the Uk system.

Compared to other European countries these organisations are light years behind. Whilst it seems  the UK has concentrated on horse welfare (perhaps for good reason) the rest of the world has moved on in terms of getting the sport profile raised, organisation, administration and governance.

In the UK these associations moan about lack of government grant, but they seem incapable of  getting their act together. The Uk equestrian sport system compared to the continent is the different between the organisation of a school fete and that of a large corporation : it is quite simply amateurish.   

This thread simply highlights the conservative culture of those involved , making the task of taking the sport forwards more difficult to achieve.


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

B-B said:



			K If the poster is listed then you certainly have more to worry about than I do...and best to keep laughing.

NR99 I would say anyone us uneducated or unqualified...nowthat would be rude!
		
Click to expand...

Umm, and what exactly do I have to worry about? Seriously?
Since I always pay attention to my horse's turnout, any judge that does take that into consideration, even in the slightest degree, is not going to mark me down for being on a clean, plaited horse, while I have a jacket on even if it is sweltering...


----------



## rvb99 (30 June 2011)

NR99 said:



			B-B and rvb99 I have re-read the post and like AandK I still don't know what you are talking about.
		
Click to expand...

"
There is no need to dumb down the dress code. Just a pro-active one off decision by the organisers so everybody is clear, and then BE approved kit suitable for the prevailing weather. Its done in other countries so why not in the UK -what's so special about the UK ? "


----------



## AandK (30 June 2011)

On my phone so I can't quote but LEC - excellent post!!

Before we know it BE will be a mess of red tape and ridiculous rules governing health and safety. Or better still, they will ban it all together because it is far too risky. 

I'm all for BE moving with the times but we have to keep in mind it is a sport with so much history and tradition, it would be such a shame to look back in 10 years time and see a sport I love barely recognisable.

You have to draw the line somewhere surely? Of course safety is important but not at the expense of the whole point of the sport - enjoyment!! Well, we're not in it for the money now are we....


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

rvb99 said:



			"
There is no need to dumb down the dress code. Just a pro-active one off decision by the organisers so everybody is clear, and then BE approved kit suitable for the prevailing weather. Its done in other countries so why not in the UK -what's so special about the UK ? "
		
Click to expand...

First of all, we don't have the extremes of temperature that most other eventing countries do. we have a maritime climate (you can't be more than 80 miles from the sea, anywhere in the U.K.), whereas Europe, the U.S., Canada, Australia, all the other main eventing areas all have far more extreme climates. We just don't get that sort of humidity, those sorts of extremes of temperatures.
There is already a rule in place for "BE approved kit suitable for the prevailing weather"... i really honestly do not see what you are arguing for here! Stewards are approachable, riders can ask. If they've had the brains to get themselves and their horses there, then please trust that they have the brains, if they are too hot, to ask if they may remove their jackets...!


----------



## Baggybreeches (30 June 2011)

Rvb99 in view of the fact you keep referring to risk management, why would heat exhaustion of riders be a priority? If all of the risks associated with eventing ( either real or potential) were identified and ranked then I am pretty sure heat exhaustion to riders ( who are in the main part fit able bodied folk with a reasonable level of nutrition) would be right down the list next to meteor strike just before dinosaur attack at the water jump!
Very bizarre replies from yourself and B-B


----------



## NR99 (30 June 2011)

rvb99 said:



			"
There is no need to dumb down the dress code. Just a pro-active one off decision by the organisers so everybody is clear, and then BE approved kit suitable for the prevailing weather. Its done in other countries so why not in the UK -what's so special about the UK ? "
		
Click to expand...

So all this and that's all you want?

Do you think stating that everyone here is living in the last century was necessary just for this point?  Perhaps in France you do not value tradition, in the same way, here we do and as you can remove your jacket when hot I fail to see how it is detrimental to anyone.  Afterall if you really object then just choose not to compete, it really is that simple?

I am afraid I do not think we are waiting for a heat exhaustion accident to change rules, if it really were a problem all manner of activities would need to be cancelled due to a bit of warm weather, athletics, school sports days etc etc I think you are worrying unneccessarily.


----------



## rvb99 (30 June 2011)

NR99 said:



			I fear you had one tipple to many last night or you are deliberately trying to antagonise other forum members, whichever it is you have been quite rude IMHO.
		
Click to expand...

IMHO I find this comment more patronising and rude than any of my postings.

personally I see this as healthy debate, between what I would call the traditionalists who do not see the reason to change and those that would like to move the sport forward.


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			Very bizarre replies from yourself and B-B
		
Click to expand...

i think they're just arguing for the sake of it, very odd. Not quite sure what the agenda is - perhaps that all riders in the U.K. are cretins, ditto judges, BE are useless, the U.K. is light years behind every other equestrian nation... hmmmm.


----------



## AandK (30 June 2011)

rvb99 said:



			"
There is no need to dumb down the dress code. Just a pro-active one off decision by the organisers so everybody is clear, and then BE approved kit suitable for the prevailing weather. Its done in other countries so why not in the UK -what's so special about the UK ? "
		
Click to expand...

Yes you have given this simple solution, but you still haven't explained why you are going on about health and safety and risk and liability management.
The approving of certain kit to wear in extreme weather is nothing to do with health and safetly, just comfort of the rider..  How can BE be liable if someone gets poorly because they rode in their jacket for 6 mins on a hot day?
And if BE don't follow your suggestion, I fail to see how an accident will occur..   Some people will get heatstroke/faint/go purple in hot weather regardless of what they are doing. Eventing / cycling / running / shopping / gardening, the list goes on..


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

AandK said:



			Some people will get heatstroke/faint/go purple in hot weather regardless of what they are doing. Eventing / cycling / running / shopping / gardening, the list goes on..
		
Click to expand...

Exactly. The hottest day I've ever competed on (35 degrees, no breeze at all, not in the U.K. fwiw) all the riders were fine (we were forced to hydrate v regularly, with squash with a bit of salt in it, yeuk) but some of the grooms got heatstroke...


----------



## diggerbez (30 June 2011)

this post is hysterical. 
as i see it...its the rider's responsibility to know the rules- its not exactly hard is it to read the (free) rule book they send you when you join/buy day tickets or you can look at the downloadable rule book online or even post in the "askBE" section of the forum where they normally reply to any question very quickly- if i'm not sure about something i always ask there and they have been very helpful. I reckon that very few people will go BE without having done some unaffiliated (probably PC or RC) at some stage beforehand so will have a general gist of the rules anyway from that? 

i know a lady who is doing a BE next month and she is adamant that her daughter can warm her horse up for her. have warned her that this is against the rules and she may get told off- up to her i guess if she can't be bothered to find out. 

Re jackets- if its too hot then surely you would just ask?? or buy a lighter jacket for the summer months? i get very red in the face when i compete. not because i am unfit or massively overheating, i just get red in the face- always have done. TBH if i was competing and had some blathering at me to ask if i could take my jacket off i would probably be thinking "shut up...i will ask if i WANT to ask" 

re. plaiting and turn out. sorry but i think its rude to the judge to not bother plaiting. no it shouldn't affect the mark they give but i bet with a lot  (not all) it does make a difference if they are trying to decide between 2 marks- where there are no half marks they have to use something to decide up or down and overall picture WILL make a difference in a lot of cases.


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

diggerbez, the voice of reason. THANKYOU!!!


----------



## rvb99 (30 June 2011)

NR99 said:



			all manner of activities would need to be cancelled due to a bit of warm weather, athletics, school sports days etc etc I think you are worrying unneccessarily.
		
Click to expand...

I think if you go back to my first post, you will see clearly see that what maybe termed today as a "bit of hot weather" is  going to become more of  a problem. The weather is changing and summers are getting hotter. The number of days of mid 30sdeg  is increasing.  My issue is with this sport, not other sports, but we could expect other sports to start to change also.

The issue is simple , its about managing risk.   Personally I do not find the BE implementation today very satisfactory, because I have experience of elsewhere where I believe it works much better. The proposed solution is simple. 

I also have experience of where things seem to work better in a lot of other areas. Of course you can disagree and ridicule me, but perhaps , just perhaps a little more humility in recognising that dear Old Blighty does not know best in everything would help move the sport along.


----------



## rvb99 (30 June 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			Rvb99 in view of the fact you keep referring to risk management, why would heat exhaustion of riders be a priority?/QUOTE]

In risk management priority (or risk score)  =  possibility X impact. The probability in this case is related mainly to temperature and humidity. The impact could be quite serious, which makes the score potentially medium to high (certainly higher than the strange dinosaur example above). The question is whether you decide to put a system in place to manage the problem. This is fairly basic management practice that you would find in any large organisation - sporting or not.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## diggerbez (30 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			diggerbez, the voice of reason. THANKYOU!!!
		
Click to expand...

he he


----------



## NR99 (30 June 2011)

rvb99 said:



			I think if you go back to my first post, you will see clearly see that what maybe termed today as a "bit of hot weather" is  going to become more of  a problem. The weather is changing and summers are getting hotter. The number of days of mid 30sdeg  is increasing.  My issue is with this sport, not other sports, but we could expect other sports to start to change also.

The issue is simple , its about managing risk.   Personally I do not find the BE implementation today very satisfactory, because I have experience of elsewhere where I believe it works much better. The proposed solution is simple. 

I also have experience of where things seem to work better in a lot of other areas. Of course you can disagree and ridicule me, but perhaps , just perhaps a little more humility in recognising that dear Old Blighty does not know best in everything would help move the sport along.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think I am ridiculing you, I feel you are over re-acting but I believe in freedom of speech and think you have every right to say as you feel.  I do however find that despite your protestations that you are just offering healthy debate that comments like 'dear old blighty' are deliberately antagonistic but again that is your choice.  If the French are so much better at removing their clothes in heat, why do you not see them without their jackets at their televised events?


----------



## Rosiefan (30 June 2011)

NR99 said:



			If the French are so much better at removing their clothes in heat, why do you not see them without their jackets at their televised events?
		
Click to expand...

Who exactly invented streaking? How dare you suggest the French are better than us Brits at removing their clothes   
Actually, come to think of it that was really dangerous - it was at a Rugby match - in winter . She might have got frostbite!


----------



## NR99 (30 June 2011)

Rosiefan said:



			Who exactly invented streaking? How dare you suggest the French are better than us Brits at removing their clothes   
Actually, come to think of it that was really dangerous - it was at a Rugby match - in winter . She might have got frostbite!
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Zebedee (30 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			diggerbez, the voice of reason. THANKYOU!!!
		
Click to expand...

Agree, other than when I judge I don't take turnout in to consideration at all - I'm far too focused on the manner of going & the test. I wouldn't mind betting that the vast majority of judges would say the same. Never once have I heard turnout even mentioned on any of the trianing days I've attended (other than the showing based ones).


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

Zebedee said:



			Agree, other than when I judge I don't take turnout in to consideration at all - I'm far too focused on the manner of going & the test. I wouldn't mind betting that the vast majority of judges would say the same. Never once have I heard turnout even mentioned on any of the trianing days I've attended (other than the showing based ones).
		
Click to expand...

So, do you mean that you do take turnout into consideration when you're judging?  

I don't think good turnout would be mentioned because it is assumed. I never had any of my trainers mention it, ever, it was taken as a given, they never told me to put a saddle and bridle on the horse either, or to remember to wear breeches.


----------



## charlie76 (30 June 2011)

I dressage judge , organise showsand also compete. When judging although a notice the turn out of the horse and rider, unless they are breaching the rules (ie no gloves etc) it does not affect the way I judge the horse whatsover. I am looking at the horses way of going and the riders influence on the horse. That is it.
I have, at the area festival, had a comment from a judge on my score sheet 'immaculatley turned out horse and rider', still, my wonderful efforts didn't dazzle the judges as I was 6th on 65% and not 1st on 90% due to my amazing turn out ability! If you want points for turn out then best to enter the tack and turn out classes!
Having said that, I have a sense of pride so I always present my horses plaited and well turned out ( looks good for the photos after all!)
When organising shows, if it is hot, I expect people to have some kind of common sense and ask whether they can remove jackets, I don't expect my stewards to wander round to each individual person to tell them that they can take their jackets off- this would be a logistical nightmare. I just make the secretary know, should anyone ask.


----------



## Zebedee (30 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			So, do you mean that you do take turnout into consideration when you're judging?  

Click to expand...

Haha - no! To clarify I mean that I agreed with Diggerbez with the exception  of the remark re poor turnout costing marks !

I've actually be pleasantly surprised on more than one occassion when the quality of the work has far exceeded that of the turnout - conversly some very professional looking competitors have been most  dissapointing !


----------



## Horsemad12 (30 June 2011)

"Tack up pony and go over to dressage warm up on unplaited pony with quarter marks no longer used but instead stable stains in artful ways. "

I actually think this is a good idea, mine is very artful with her stable and mud stains!!!!

When I have been competing on VERY hot days (There are not that many of them!) then the "news" that you can take your jacket off has spread pretty quickly.  You can see the dressage arena's and people riding without a jacket and if with all of that you are not sure then just ask.

I have been tack checked at BE, I am amazed M_M has not been!  I have no issue with someone having a quick check, I have nothing to hide!

I think most of us who event enjoy getting "dressed" up.  For me it is all part of the day.  I have to admit I do not always plait for small local dressage.  My choice, I mean no disrespect to the judge, owning a grey though I would always bath and have a clean horse.

I know it is hard to start a new sport, I was lucky in that I "groomed" for a friend at some events before I started so I knew how things work.  Perhaps for new comers, helping at a few events would assist before they start eventing themselves.

Finally I thought we all enjoyed horses and competing and came on here for friendly gossip, advice and support?


----------



## Baggybreeches (30 June 2011)

rvb99 said:



			In risk management priority (or risk score)  =  possibility X impact. The probability in this case is related mainly to temperature and humidity. The impact could be quite serious, which makes the score potentially medium to high (certainly higher than the strange dinosaur example above). The question is whether you decide to put a system in place to manage the problem. This is fairly basic management practice that you would find in any large organisation - sporting or not.
		
Click to expand...

I am no statisic genius but you also need to factor in weather conditions surely? Which in this country (based on previously recorded temperatures) would make this a low risk? 
Essentially you would need (a) high temperature x (b) unsuitable clothing x (c) susceptible person x (d) probability,as most people react differently to high temperatures ( I personally dislike the very warm weather, but I manage to function normally as long as I eat and drink).
And although I am not a statistics genius I do work in a H&S and risk assessment based service, so I do have a decent enough understanding of risk assessments/duty of care related regulations and guidelines.


----------



## Gamebird (30 June 2011)

Swirlymurphy said:



			And don't get me started on coloured tack or bling....

Right - I'm back off to my cave now.  Anyone care to join me?
		
Click to expand...

Meeeeeeee! That's 15mins of my life I'll never get back . Don't suppose you've got a large G&T and a comfy chair in there?


----------



## Baggybreeches (30 June 2011)

Gamebird said:



			Meeeeeeee! That's 15mins of my life I'll never get back . Don't suppose you've got a large G&T and a comfy chair in there?

Click to expand...

A can of G&T and a smelly car to sit in?


----------



## MagicMelon (30 June 2011)

Princecharming said:



			I'd be embarrassed to do any dressage test without plaits in. I tend to pull my plaits out for x country if I have time (I have no groom) I also don't really see how doing a dressage test in a jacket and thin shirt is any cooler than doing x country in a body protector, and the riders seem to manage that ok without moaning and fainting.
		
Click to expand...

I'm happy to put up with the heat from a BP, since that could save my life. It has a purpose.  A show jacket IMO does not.  Its just there to look traditional.


----------



## rvb99 (30 June 2011)

NR99 said:



			If the French are so much better at removing their clothes in heat, why do you not see them without their jackets at their televised events?
		
Click to expand...

I am not sure to which events you are referring to. I am assuming it is some international competition. What were the weather conditions ? As I have remarked earlier, you can not make a direct comparison with professional sports people and amateurs that make up the majority of BE.


----------



## Gamebird (30 June 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			A can of G&T and a smelly car to sit in?
		
Click to expand...

Done!


----------



## dixie (30 June 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			I'm happy to put up with the heat from a BP, since that could save my life. It has a purpose.  A show jacket IMO does not.  Its just there to look traditional.
		
Click to expand...

I agree.

As I was trying to say last night before my computer crashed and lost everything  - grrr - I've asked at least twice at BSJA's shows to have my back protector on and no jacket, due to the heat, and have been refused.

Needless to say I don't ask anymore & suffer in silence.

Also, with the comments that its only 6 minutes, thats not always the case.  If you don't have a helper to bring and hold your jacket, its usually a necessity to wear the jacket whilst working in.


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

dixie said:



			Also, with the comments that its only 6 minutes, thats not always the case.  If you don't have a helper to bring and hold your jacket, its usually a necessity to wear the jacket whilst working in.
		
Click to expand...

nope, i disagree. i warm up in a cut-off short sleeved shirt, as cool as possible. if i'm alone i carry it and my number, and leave them near the steward, who i ask very nicely to remove horse's boots and to hand me them about 5 mins before my test. i have never been refused and only ever had 1 steward (at ALW) get stroppy about it. 

rvb99, re:  "you can not make a direct comparison with professional sports people and amateurs that make up the majority of BE."
why not? honestly? the conditions are the same for all.


----------



## rvb99 (30 June 2011)

charlie76 said:



			I don't expect my stewards to wander round to each individual person to tell them that they can take their jackets off- this would be a logistical nightmare. I just make the secretary know, should anyone ask.
		
Click to expand...

This is not what I proposed. A simple central announcement is all that I  suggested. 

 e.g in summer : in hot humid conditions. Stewards and organisers decide alternative summer attire is possible. Announcement is made. Riders  decide whether they wish to change, dress code is maintained by using BE approved gear (probably smarter and more consistent than today !) ,   Everybody is aware and BE and organisers have managed the potential risk - job done ! 

I see this as a relatively small practical improvement to the current process, so I am having some difficulty in understanding the issues in implementation.
 It certainly seems simpler than the current system of each individual rider having to ask the stewards, and then having people riding around in various "non smart" or inconsistent dress.


----------



## rvb99 (30 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			rvb99, re:  "you can not make a direct comparison with professional sports people and amateurs that make up the majority of BE."
why not? honestly? the conditions are the same for all.
		
Click to expand...

 - different physical condition between professionals and amateurs. This is the same for all sports, including equestrian. 

 - age, where in particular younger people with lower body weights will succumb to the effects of heat faster. Could also apply to older riders.


----------



## NR99 (30 June 2011)

rvb99 said:



			As I have remarked earlier, you can not make a direct comparison with professional sports people and amateurs that make up the majority of BE.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but I disagree, if it is the H&S risk that you state then why would you ignore the dangers for professionals?


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

rvb99 said:



			This is not what I proposed. A simple central announcement is all that I  suggested. 

 e.g in summer : in hot humid conditions. Stewards and organisers decide alternative summer attire is possible. Announcement is made. Riders  decide whether they wish to change, dress code is maintained by using BE approved gear (probably smarter and more consistent than today !) ,   Everybody is aware and BE and organisers have managed the potential risk - job done ! 

I see this as a relatively small practical improvement to the current process, so I am having some difficulty in understanding the issues in implementation.
 It certainly seems simpler than the current system of each individual rider having to ask the stewards, and then having people riding around in various "non smart" or inconsistent dress.
		
Click to expand...

Erm, how many horse trials have you been to in the U.K. in hot weather? Because that isn't what happens...
ime, once one person is seen to be a test without a jacket, word spreads very quickly and lots more people ride in shirt-sleeves if they want to... they don't all go and check with their steward. 
An announcement is often made over the tannoy, about shirt-sleeve order in the SJ as well as the dressage. it might always be made, i don't know, i haven't always heard it but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened...
as for "BE approved gear", any plain shirt with sleeves is allowed afaik. do you want us all in uniform? i think riders would fight that, if only because of the additional cost!


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

rvb99 said:



			- different physical condition between professionals and amateurs. This is the same for all sports, including equestrian. 

 - age, where in particular younger people with lower body weights will succumb to the effects of heat faster. Could also apply to older riders.
		
Click to expand...

Erm, but in equestrianism, uniquely, the horse is, indisputably, doing most of the work. as long as the rider is fit ENOUGH (and that is not easy to measure), i don't see the problem. an amateur might be fit enough to ride 1 horse round a novice, the Pro to ride 6 horses round in 1 day... 

so, your last comment applies to younger people and older people. or maybe the ones in the middle who are overweight, or really unfit. so, quite a big percentage of riders.  

yet again, it comes back to RIDER RESPONSIBILITY. i don't want to be nannied by BE, the onus is on me to be fit enough, have my horse fit enough, be competent enough, hydrated enough, etc etc.


----------



## Baggybreeches (30 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			rvb99, re:  "you can not make a direct comparison with professional sports people and amateurs that make up the majority of BE."
why not? honestly? the conditions are the same for all.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I agree with this point.
Please see the C&P info from the BE website:
What makes Eventing so different...?

 One of only a few sports in the world where men and women compete on equal terms 

 One of only three sports where men and women compete on equal terms at the Olympics (sailing & mixed badminton)

 The genuine amateur can compete against World and Olympic Champions 

 Its a sport that Britain enjoys success in Over 200 Championship medals in 88 years of competition 

 Highest ABC1 demographic profile participation sport in Britain 

 All round test of horsemanship 

 Opportunities for all ages and abilities  appeals to the young and old alike 


I used to event I now Point to point, do I expect them to make allowances for the fact I am too fat, not fit enough or not remotely interested in having the right equipment? No. I choose to participate and by paying my entry fee I agree to be bound by rules and guidelines. There are people like me who work their backsides off literally to make sure I am as good as I can be, I am not a professional but I do have high standards and if that makes me old fashioned then I am sorry I would rather be old fashioned than slovenly and make excuses for lack of effort, whether that be on turnout, or performance.


----------



## Chloe_GHE (30 June 2011)

a little bit of sun and everyone goes loopy..... 
...it will most probably be raining next week!


----------



## brighteyes (30 June 2011)

B-B said:



			Again, your choice.

Perhaps BE could add a note here http://www.britisheventing.com/page.asp?section=749&sectionTitle=What+to+Do+on+The+Day+of+The+Event

If its not too nannying? But then reading through it....
		
Click to expand...


Or maybe  here? Just playing devil's advocate.


----------



## Saratoga (30 June 2011)

I don't really see the problem....if you are too hot, ask if you can remove your jacket. They will either say yes or no. You then either take your jacket off, or continue to suffer in view of 'traditional dress'.

What's the problem?

What I DO see as a problem, is people thinking it's acceptable for the judge to be swayed as to how smart you are, if you have plaited or in uniform dress. The horse should be judged on the scales of training ONLY, and any judge that gets swayed by how smart the combination are, whether they know said rider, how pretty the horse is etc etc etc should NOT be allowed to judge!!


----------



## meardsall_millie (30 June 2011)

Horsemad12 said:



			I have been tack checked at BE, I am amazed M_M has not been!  I have no issue with someone having a quick check, I have nothing to hide!
		
Click to expand...

Nope - never at BE (other than the obvious 'don't forget to drop your whip/remove horses boots'), nor have I seen anyone tack checked.  I also steward fairly regularly and have never been asked by organisers to undertake tack checks. 

I do dressage write from time to time - the judges always keep an eye out for tack discrepancies and do challenge riders/report it to officials for further investigation.  They also sometimes pass comment on scruffy horses/riders although I can't say if this affects the mark or not


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

Saratoga said:



			I don't really see the problem....if you are too hot, ask if you can remove your jacket. They will either say yes or no. You then either take your jacket off, or continue to suffer in view of 'traditional dress'.

What's the problem?

What I DO see as a problem, is people thinking it's acceptable for the judge to be swayed as to how smart you are, if you have plaited or in uniform dress. The horse should be judged on the scales of training ONLY, and any judge that gets swayed by how smart the combination are, whether they know said rider, how pretty the horse is etc etc etc should NOT be allowed to judge!!
		
Click to expand...

I think the problem is that if it is a very hot day and the powers that be say "no, you can't ride in a shirt" that could become an issue... not that i've ever known that to happen. as stated up there somewhere, with modern fabrics (and a lightweight chuck-in-the-wash show jacket is suprisingly cheap, there's no need to sweat in a heavy winter-weight hunt coat!) there's no need to swelter, even with a jacket on. we don't get 35 degree + temps here in the U.K., or high humidity. if it was that hot, i'd worry about the horses more than the riders!

i think we're talking at cross purposes about the effect of turnout on the judge... i sincerely hope they aren't swayed by whether they know the rider, or how pretty the horse is, or whether its kit looks more expensive than someone elses... BUT i think if you go to the extreme i mentioned (and saw warming up at BE),  a FILTHY grey horse (really obvious brown stable stains, which i could have vamooshed in 2 mins with a sponge and towel!) with untidy unplaited mane, i'd expect that to possibly get slightly lower marks than 1 that was well-turned out and went the same...  
it's not a Best Turned Out of course, but dressage is all about the total appearance and impression... i cannot imagine seeing, say, Carl Hester turn up for a competition on a dirty unplaited horse. I wonder why not...


----------



## NR99 (30 June 2011)

Saratoga said:



			IWhat I DO see as a problem, is people thinking it's acceptable for the judge to be swayed as to how smart you are, if you have plaited or in uniform dress. The horse should be judged on the scales of training ONLY, and any judge that gets swayed by how smart the combination are, whether they know said rider, how pretty the horse is etc etc etc should NOT be allowed to judge!!
		
Click to expand...

I certainly don't think that, as I mentioned before it is about showing respect for someone that has turned up to give their time to mark you.


----------



## AandK (30 June 2011)

meardsall_millie said:



			Nope - never at BE (other than the obvious 'don't forget to drop your whip/remove horses boots'), nor have I seen anyone tack checked.  I also steward fairly regularly and have never been asked by organisers to undertake tack checks. 

I do dressage write from time to time - the judges always keep an eye out for tack discrepancies and do challenge riders/report it to officials for further investigation.  They also sometimes pass comment on scruffy horses/riders although I can't say if this affects the mark or not 

Click to expand...

Ditto.  I have only ever been tack checked at RC qualifiers, where they have a steward dedicated to tack checks.

I also steward and will mention to a rider if I see something glaringly obvious, wrong hat / boots / no gloves etc, but I have never been asked to tack check each competitor.

I have also written for dressage at BE and the judges I wrote for were always complementary on the combinations that were well turned out, but this never affected the mark as far as I could tell. (however I am not a mind reader..).

I have never seen an unplaited horse at BE for dressage, but I have heard people do go un-plaited.  I always make sure me and my horse are well turned out, I even plait for a local unaff dressage, because I like to look smart whatever comp we are at and my horses mane is a bit unruly when left to it's own devices!!    That said, it is personal choice at the end of the day.  If someone doesn't want to plait and their horse is clean and tidy, and they are too I don't see the problem.  
However, there really is no excuse for turning up to a comp with stable stains!  I have a grey who is very dirty when stabled, I used to allow an extra 30 mins 'poo-stain scrubbing' time when getting ready for an early morning start when he was stabled!! Luckily now he is out 24/7 I just have to contend with the odd patch of mudd or grass stains which are much easier to clean!


----------



## brighteyes (30 June 2011)

Is it just me or has this thread gone off piste?

I have read enough of it to see I agree with many of those disagreeing at first then all agreeing a bit further on!  I'll put it down to typing in the heat with the wrong jacket on and dehydration.


----------



## ajn1610 (30 June 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			 Its a sport that Britain enjoys success in Over 200 Championship medals in 88 years of competition
		
Click to expand...

Yeah 'Old Blighty's' doing OK thank you very much - wake up and smell the gold (and silver and bronze)!


----------



## hairycob (30 June 2011)

Ok so RVB99 thinks there should just be a central announcement. How does he propose to make that so everyone knows? When I XC steward I write at the top of my white board the time interval between competitors & that MMM in the order list = a space to squeeze in a multiple rider if necessary. I will still be asked what the interval is & what MMM means approx every 5 minutes!
I know SJ stewards are often asked to try & tell competitors to get to XC early as so many don't make it that far as well as doing their SJ jobs - just how ragged do you want to run the unpaid volunteers who give up their time for you to compete. The vast majority of volunteers that I know don't compete BE themselves & never will (including me) so it's not even like they are giving back to the sport they participate in.


----------



## Zebedee (30 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			do you want us all in uniform? i think riders would fight that,
		
Click to expand...

Blimey, there was enough of a kerfuffle when it became mandatory for Medical ARMbands to to worn on the arm............


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

Zebedee said:





Blimey, there was enough of a kerfuffle when it became mandatory for Medical ARMbands to to worn on the arm............
		
Click to expand...

haha yes, i'd forgotten that! lots of very skinny-armed people up in arms (sorry, couldn't resist!) at the thought of having to use a bit of elastic, needle and thread, and ingenuity to fix it to ARMband rather than boot... in spite of very valid medical reasons for not having it on your boot.
i can only begin to imagine the fuss if BE tried to stipulate exactly what riders should wear!


----------



## oldvic (30 June 2011)

Kerilli - thanks for the vote of confidence!! I had quite a chuckle too!!! I think B-B would argue that black was white!!!!
Maybe, instead of forgetting to put your breeches on, you should set a trend for riding in shorts in hot weather!!!

rvb99 - some of the best event riders in the world are in their late 40s/50s. All pros are human beings. They ride up to 5 horses a day which quite probably means riding all day with no breaks. They are far more likely to push themselves to an unsafe level than the amateur so why are they different?
I don't understand your problem - there is a perfectly good plan in place, not that dissimilar to your french one - if anything easier as the riders only have to remove their jacket rather than change into different kit when they may already be on their horse - it is seldom hot when dressage classes start and forecasts are often wrong!!!
For a country that is so backward, Blighty isn't doing too badly at being a training ground for many nations and the place where many strive to compete.
There are probably more cases of heatstroke among spectators than competitors - should BE be responsible for telling them what to wear too?!!

B-B - if judges ALWAYS went up then a horse that deserves to be on 65% could end on 70%. Now that would be unfair on those that genuinely earned 66-70%.

What I said was that an unplaited mane can accentuate a problem. This means that it can make a tilted head etc appear greater than it is, just like a crooked blaze can or a white leg can attract attention to irregular steps. It is called an optical illusion, nothing to do with anyones's ability to judge.

Lolo sums up showmanship perfectly. 

If you respect your horse you will ride it better and therefore get better marks. Equally, horses have the ability to be proud and show themselves off to their maximum, some more than others. Those horses will dare the judge to give them marks more than the horse that goes correctly but appear to apologise for being there. They are far more likely to be proud if well turned out. If I have explained this badly, I apologise, but believe me, there are many horses that save a bit for themselves unless they are plaited and well turned out, then they know that energy is required. This is how turnout affects the marks, not because the judge gives extra, but because it enhances the performance.

baggybreeches - I'm longing to see the dinosaurs - it could rival lions escaping at Longleat!


----------



## Saratoga (30 June 2011)

Do you honestly think that horses go better when they are plaited??!


----------



## walker1234 (30 June 2011)

I've come to the conclusion that B-B stands for BLOODY BORED and rvb stands for REALLY VERY BORED.  

I can see no other logical explanation for the circles these two are going in other than to while away the time they have on their hands (if indeed it is actually 2 different people)


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

walker1234 said:



			I've come to the conclusion that B-B stands for BLOODY BORED and rvb stands for REALLY VERY BORED.  

I can see no other logical explanation for the circles these two are going in other than to while away the time they have on their hands (if indeed it is actually 2 different people)
		
Click to expand...

Yes, proto-trolls perhaps. most odd.

oldvic, i must admit that had never occurred to me... i know that some horses definitely rise to the occasion, and some shrink into themselves in a big atmosphere, but i never thought of their turnout actually affecting their behaviour at all... hmm, lots to ponder there, thanks.

Saratoga... i'm musing on it!


----------



## Santa_Claus (30 June 2011)

I can tell you now Fleur knows that plaiting = party/competition and there is no question she rises to the occasion, i can get work from her in 10 mins at an event which she will make me wait 30+ mins for at home.  

I also always plait her for dressage as she has a horribly thick scruffy mane and plaits really show off her neck.

As for judges marking turnout they dont but it will often subconciously affect their frame of mind in the same way a smile down the centre line will. Dress smart (with or without jacket!) and smile coming down the centre and it will be noticed and may well edge up the occasional 6.5 to a 7. 

Almost all the judges I have ever scribed for (including several list 1 international judges) will often give half marks and will keep a mental tally increasing/decreasing marks as appropriate through the test to give a fair reflection of the true mark. For example if the rider rides a movement for a 6.5 and the next a 6.5 the judge will give them a 6 and then round the second one up to a 7. They do not round up every single movement/mark as it as said gives an untrue reflection of the test.

In regards to the original point re jackets what is constituted as overly hot weather. If the steward happened to comes from Southern France even 30 (which to us is hot) would just be warm and may well not think to say no jackets. at another event it may be 20 and the steward from North Scotland and the opposite could apply.

Best to leave as is IMHO, if a rider feels hot they ask their arena steward, if they confirm with head steward no jackets then the word can soon be spread.

Oh and i must be rare that as a new member last year i read the rule book, although to me its also common sense in uncomfortably warm weather to ask permission to remove jackets but again maybe thats just me!? Not that I have had to do so yet....


----------



## oldvic (30 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			Well, to be fair, who can say but there are horses who know what plaits mean and they "grow". I wouldn't argue with anyone who said that the plaits give the impression of the horse being proud of itself and showing itself off but the effect is the same!! It leads to a more expressive picture and therefore the possibility of higher marks. The turnout not being judged but it affecting the picture. What I'm trying to say is very hard to put into words especially to someone who doesn't want to understand what I mean which probably led to people thinking I meant that judges give extra marks for plaiting. It can work the other way too - the advanced dressage horse I had that I tended not to plait was pretty wild and could wind himself up at the thought of a show. He wouldn't stale on the lorry if plaited so I would leave him with a short, well pulled mane.
I don't know if this makes my thoughts and observations any clearer or even muddier!!!!
		
Click to expand...


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

Santa_Claus said:



			As for judges marking turnout they dont but it will often subconciously affect their frame of mind in the same way a smile down the centre line will. Dress smart (with or without jacket!) and smile coming down the centre and it will be noticed and may well edge up the occasional 6.5 to a 7. 

Almost all the judges I have ever scribed for (including several list 1 international judges) will often give half marks and will keep a mental tally increasing/decreasing marks as appropriate through the test to give a fair reflection of the true mark. For example if the rider rides a movement for a 6.5 and the next a 6.5 the judge will give them a 6 and then round the second one up to a 7. They do not round up every single movement/mark as it as said gives an untrue reflection of the test.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, exactly this, this is what I was trying to say. I've written for a List 1 judge who did exactly that, plus kept a careful tally of all his top ones in a class, and their collectives, and would be sure to adjust final collectives of any more good tests to be sure he got them in the correct order of preference on overall %age. i think in moments like that, presentation (which includes turnout, smiling, etc etc) makes a difference.

i agree that there are definitely horses who know what plaits mean, and maybe they do 'grow' accordingly. even more reason to plait, as long as their temperament can take it! a good reason not to plait the night before too, imho... i want my horse to be relaxed the night before a competition, not at all tense or anticipatory.


----------



## B-B (30 June 2011)

oldvic said:



			Kerilli - thanks for the vote of confidence!! I had quite a chuckle too!!! I think B-B would argue that black was white!!!!


B-B - if judges ALWAYS went up then a horse that deserves to be on 65% could end on 70%. Now that would be unfair on those that genuinely earned 66-70%.

What I said was that an unplaited mane can accentuate a problem. This means that it can make a tilted head etc appear greater than it is, just like a crooked blaze can or a white leg can attract attention to irregular steps. It is called an optical illusion, nothing to do with anyones's ability to judge.

Lolo sums up showmanship perfectly. 

If you respect your horse you will ride it better and therefore get better marks. Equally, horses have the ability to be proud and show themselves off to their maximum, some more than others. Those horses will dare the judge to give them marks more than the horse that goes correctly but appear to apologise for being there. They are far more likely to be proud if well turned out. If I have explained this badly, I apologise, but believe me, there are many horses that save a bit for themselves unless they are plaited and well turned out, then they know that energy is required. This is how turnout affects the marks, not because the judge gives extra, but because it enhances the performance.

baggybreeches - I'm longing to see the dinosaurs - it could rival lions escaping at Longleat!
		
Click to expand...

Im merely stating facts.  Black and white

ERmm..judges dont decide the percentage a horse should be on.  They mark each individual movement and then summarize.  Judges dont decide the placing either.   They mark what they see and move on.   

Judges do see head tilt etc,  but may comment as to the cause...not the symptom.  

If they judge has 6 or a 7 in mind then there must be something that makes them see a 7.   So they would award up.  If another horse is better it too will receive better marks.   But there are many different reason so each mark and that deciding factor comes through training, not turn out or horsemanship.  They look for ring craft.   If you do your transitions away from the judge to avoid showing an open mouth, then this loss of contact will show up in the balance or straightness of your horse.   

All this can be clarified (black and white) by BD.


----------



## B-B (30 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			Yes, exactly this, this is what I was trying to say. I've written for a List 1 judge who did exactly that, plus kept a careful tally of all his top ones in a class, and their collectives, and would be sure to adjust final collectives of any more good tests to be sure he got them in the correct order of preference on overall %age. i think in moments like that, presentation (which includes turnout, smiling, etc etc) makes a difference.
		
Click to expand...

Oh dear, oh dear!   And you believe that?  Really?


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

B-B said:



			Im merely stating facts.  Black and white

ERmm..judges dont decide the percentage a horse should be on.  They mark each individual movement and then summarize.  Judges dont decide the placing either.   They mark what they see and move on.   

Judges do see head tilt etc,  but may comment as to the cause...not the symptom.  

If they judge has 6 or a 7 in mind then there must be something that makes them see a 7.   So they would award up.  If another horse is better it too will receive better marks.   But there are many different reason so each mark and that deciding factor comes through training, not turn out or horsemanship.  They look for ring craft.   If you do your transitions away from the judge to avoid showing an open mouth, then this loss of contact will show up in the balance or straightness of your horse.   

All this can be clarified (black and white) by BD.
		
Click to expand...

Please read the first paragraph of my previous post. That was writing for a List 1 judge. I started writing for him when he was List 3 or 4, I can't remember which. That kind of attention to detail is what made him progress to judging at List 1.  GOOD judges keep track of what %age their top few are on, and slot any new ones in in the right place, with careful use of the collectives, they don't just simply mark what they see before them... or, the ones that do, are probably the ones whose marks mysteriously improve towards the end of Day 2 of judging at a 3-day...  

We cross-posted.

YES, i do believe it, because i witnessed it, many times! i was not the beneficiary, i am not in cloud cuckoo land here...  i was the dressage writer. 
have you ever written for a truly excellent high-listed dressage judge? i doubt it somehow, judging by the extent of your 'knowledge'.
i really can't tell if you are a troll or not but you sure as hell are as chuffing annoying as one.


----------



## B-B (30 June 2011)

No, they dont.

They may keep the collective scores but and perhaps a short description but his is just in case someone comes to speak to them about their horse and it will help jog their memory.  Most judges do this...from trainee.  I have written for many judges up to international level for many years.  

Im afraid someone has given you the wrong impression at some point and probably hasnt realised it.   Yes its nice to see people smiling but judges really are a grumpy lot and not swayed by such things. 

Its a shame you have had to resort to name calling in an attempt to win your argument.   Some are able to have a civil discussion.

Just looking at your avatar.  Do you still compete?  Looks familiar.


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

B-B said:



			No, they dont.

They may keep the collective scores but and perhaps a short description but his is just in case someone comes to speak to them about their horse and it will help jog their memory.  Most judges do this...from trainee. 

Its a shame you have had to resort to name calling in an attempt to win your argument.   Some are able to have a civil discussion.

Just looking at your avatar.  Do you still compete?  Looks familiar.
		
Click to expand...

I am telling you what I saw. He explained it to me. Please don't imply that I am an idiot with no idea what I am talking about... I was there and witnessed this. I won't name the judge but he judges at top level.
Trust me, that isn't my idea of name-calling! You seem determined to ignore anything anyone says that does not back up your own set-in-stone beliefs. I can't tell if you are just arguing for the sake of it.
I do still compete, and hope to get out again soon when 1 of my horses is ready, I haven't given up yet although it probably looks like it!
I doubt that one looks familiar, she retired in 2000. If the venue looks familiar, it's in Germany.


----------



## B-B (30 June 2011)

So the view of one judge and your interpretation of what he said.

No argument....I know Im right.   Years of training and testing...

You use name calling to win your argument and at the same time take huge offence to anyone else posting a different view.  Odd.

I respect different points of view...even judges have that.


----------



## Santa_Claus (30 June 2011)

i can name (although i won't name them by name!) two top international judges that i have scribed for that do exactly the same. and when I mean top I mean olympics type hugely well respected top judges not 'any old' judge!! actually no make that three as forgot a third wonderful foreign judge who sadly passed away a few years back now.

There is a reason why there is an active 'may well actually happen' FEI level campaign for half marks because the top judges give them all the time and would prefer to give the half mark for the individual movement rather than rounding up/down to compensate.


----------



## diggerbez (30 June 2011)

this is getting better and better  go kerrili!


----------



## ajn1610 (30 June 2011)

B-B said:



			No argument....I know Im right.   Years of training and testing...


I respect different points of view...even judges have that.
		
Click to expand...

hmmm, so you respect others points of view even though you are 100% right 100% of the time. How remarkably tolerant you must be to have to put up with us troglodytes. I unfortunately, lack your patience. Since there is no use 'discussing' anything with someone who knows they are right and because you seem so desperate to have the last word I would recommend other users follow my example and give it to you by not posting any more and letting this topic die.

Good Night and God Bless


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

B-B said:



			So the view of one judge and your interpretation of what he said.

No argument....I know Im right.   Years of training and testing...

You use name calling to win your argument and at the same time take huge offence to anyone else posting a different view.  Odd.

I respect different points of view...even judges have that.
		
Click to expand...

My 'interpretation' of how he explained it (very carefully). He was even meticulous enough to ensure that if they ended on the same percentages, the one he thought was marginally better would have higher collectives so would be placed higher.
as Santa Claus attests, this is not unusual among top judges.
So, which List are you on then? I am not a dressage judge, just an enthusiastic writer and rider. 
I don't take "huge offence", I'm just rather bemused by your utter inflexibility on this. 
Please note that I have been careful to say "good judges" not "all judges"... i'm sure many might judge just as you say. I bet they won't get to List 1 or List 2 though, which is the calibre of people I am talking about here.

diggerbez, get your popcorn out...   
although, i promised myself an early night, so i'm not staying here to argue all night!


----------



## oldvic (30 June 2011)

B-B said:



			ERmm..judges dont decide the percentage a horse should be on.  They mark each individual movement and then summarize.  Judges dont decide the placing either.   They mark what they see and move on.   

Judges do see head tilt etc,  but may comment as to the cause...not the symptom.  

If they judge has 6 or a 7 in mind then there must be something that makes them see a 7.   So they would award up.  If another horse is better it too will receive better marks.   But there are many different reason so each mark and that deciding factor comes through training, not turn out or horsemanship.  They look for ring craft.   If you do your transitions away from the judge to avoid showing an open mouth, then this loss of contact will show up in the balance or straightness of your horse.
		
Click to expand...

The judge will know roughly what percentage a horse has come out at - it's not rocket science - look down the sheet at the end of the test and it's there in front of you. If you judge the test then what do you do if you don't decide the percentage and the placing - that is exactly what a judge does! There is a list 1 judge who can add the scores as she goes along if she wants - she is an accountant!!

It is not the judge's job to comment on what the cause of faults is, just comment on what they see, in other words "tipping head" rather than "tipping head due to lack of suppleness". Poor writer would never cope!!! Of course the judge can see a tipping head but a flowing mane makes it more obvious.

If the judge sees something that makes them think 6 or 7 then, while I agree there was something to make them think 7, there was also something to make them think 6. A horse that clearly deserves 7s (70%) shouldn't get the same mark as a horse that deserves 6/7 (65%). Horsemanship makes a huge difference - look at Carl on Utopia on Sunday. Without his feel and ability to make the right corrections at the right time then it wouldn't have been over 80%. Horsemanship and ringcraft are all about getting marks - the half-halt away from the judge, the shoulder-fore across the short side, where to reduce or increase power, etc. Just because a horse opens his mouth,shortens his neck or whatever in a transition, it doesn't mean that he will go crooked or lose balance and if he does then you will only be marked down for that and not the open mouth as you must only mark what you can see. You may have an idea that something is going on but if you can't see it in some movements (like tongue out) then you can't mark for it.


----------



## B-B (30 June 2011)

Judges dont have time....you only have time to quickly write your collectives, summarize and the other horse is already in....

Judges do comment on the cause in relation to the scales.  To ist all you see would be very negative.

Same for the collectives.

Sorry if my confidence in what I do disturbs.  Perhaps you would prefer to be judged by judges who are a bit wishy washy and swayed by smiles.


----------



## oldvic (30 June 2011)

I would love to know what list B-B is on too! She? chose not to reply to my question when I asked before!!!


----------



## Zebedee (30 June 2011)

B-B love - when you're already up to your neck it's often a good idea to put down the shovel & stop digging.


----------



## oldvic (30 June 2011)

B-B said:



			Judges dont have time....you only have time to quickly write your collectives, summarize and the other horse is already in....

Judges do comment on the cause in relation to the scales.  To ist all you see would be very negative.

Same for the collectives.
		
Click to expand...

Gosh, I never realized that the next horse came in straight away. You learn something every day!!!!!

You shouldn't comment on the cause, just on what happened. It's not negative to say "more bend" or "quarters in" or "more from behind" etc.

Equally in the collectives "needs to work more from behind to a steady contact" or "needs to develop more suppleness" or "inclined to lose balance and go against hand" etc. are not negative comments.


----------



## B-B (30 June 2011)

Nice!


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

B-B said:



			Judges dont have time....you only have time to quickly write your collectives, summarize and the other horse is already in....

Judges do comment on the cause in relation to the scales.  To ist all you see would be very negative.

Same for the collectives.

Sorry if my confidence in what I do disturbs.  Perhaps you would prefer to be judged by judges who are a bit wishy washy and swayed by smiles.
		
Click to expand...

Good ones do!  
Mark, comment, analyse next movement, mark, comment, ditto. easy to write for, lots of time, even time for _sotto voce_ comments here and there. 
totting up quickly, keeping a running total throughout on their sheet, with collectives given written down, so they have a list of their top few and carefully slot new good ones in, in the right place.
sorry if my absolute belief in what top judges manage to do, having sat and seen and heard it with my own eyes, disturbs you...  i promise you, these superhuman judges really honestly do manage to do all that!
trust me, you'd never see a less wishy-washy judge than the one I'm talking about. nobody gets to judge at 4* nowadays if they are 'swayed by smiles' imho... well, okay, there's one i'd personally rate as 'not all that', but that's just mho, and obv not sour grapes either!
oh dear, hold on... is that you?!  
are you a Listed judge, and if so, what List please... I do love to know the calibre of people I am 'talking' to.


----------



## NR99 (30 June 2011)

B-B said:



			Sorry if my confidence in what I do disturbs.  Perhaps you would prefer to be judged by judges who are a bit wishy washy and swayed by smiles.
		
Click to expand...

B-B, I'm not disturbed but intrigued.  If you are confident in what you do why not state it, firstly you indicate you have written for many, but the above implies you judge yourself - I realise it could be both. If this is the case why not say so?  

Kerilli has already declared herself as an enthusiastic rider and scribe rather than a judge, so why don't you do the same?  If you are as confident in yourself as you feel you should be, would this not only add weight to your argument?


----------



## B-B (30 June 2011)

oldvic said:



			Gosh, I never realized that the next horse came in straight away. You learn something every day!!!!!

You shouldn't comment on the cause, just on what happened. It's not negative to say "more bend" or "quarters in" or "more from behind" etc.

Equally in the collectives "needs to work more from behind to a steady contact" or "needs to develop more suppleness" or "inclined to lose balance and go against hand" etc. are not negative comments.
		
Click to expand...

And now sarcasm (sigh)

So there is not time to sit and look through the marks to work out who should and shouldnt win..especially when you have between 35-39 horses.

To make reference to the scales it would be more suppleness and not straight.  If you say more bend riders might then turn them by the rein more.  Quarters in might encourage riders to over correct by pushing the quarters out.  Reference should be made to the scales in the comments so needing more suppleness and straightness would be better.

More what from behind...what does that tell the rider?  More energy, more jump (canter)....   

Losing balance is another one...did the horse fall over?   Horses are on the shoulder to one degree or another so you could say it has downhill balance, needing better balance or needing more uphill (the positive) balance.


----------



## B-B (30 June 2011)

NR99 said:



			B-B, I'm not disturbed but intrigued.  If you are confident in what you do why not state it, firstly you indicate you have written for many, but the above implies you judge yourself - I realise it could be both. If this is the case why not say so?  

Kerilli has already declared herself as an enthusiastic rider and scribe rather than a judge, so why don't you do the same?  If you are as confident in yourself as you feel you should be, would this not only add weight to your argument?
		
Click to expand...

Not sure what it is you want said?


----------



## NR99 (30 June 2011)

B-B said:



			Not sure what it is you want said?
		
Click to expand...

Very droll B_B, more avoidance tactics. I will resist the urge to say it is in the text above and ask outright?

Are you a Listed Judge?


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

B-B said:



			Not sure what it is you want said?
		
Click to expand...

you could answer the question I asked in my previous two posts....  




B-B said:



			So there is not time to sit and look through the marks to work out who should and shouldnt win..especially when you have between 35-39 horses.
		
Click to expand...

Right, this is what this judge did:
after every test, quickly tot up total, write it down, with collectives, on his own sheet. so, say, 115, 6, 7, 7, 6.  if it was 1 of the best ones, quick _ aide memoire_ 'big chestnut with socks', that sort of thing.
other good tests, compare them to that total, so, say, 117... 'umm, yes, it was better, okay, 6, 7, 7, 7'. 'cresty black'
'115, umm, not quite as good overall as the chestnut, okay, 6, 6, 6, 6. little bay.'
i'm paraphrasing... this was years ago, and those weren't his words, but that was the gist of what he did.
does that make sense. 
there IS time, i've seen it done, repeatedly, without hassle. it took a minute or so per horse, done when he was writing his comments.


----------



## LEC (30 June 2011)

218 posts later.

FGS

Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? 

or just talking out of your arse?


----------



## Zebedee (30 June 2011)

LEC said:



			218 posts later.

FGS

Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? Are you a listed judge? 

or just talking out of your arse?
		
Click to expand...

Based on what has been posted so far I'm going for option B


----------



## AandK (30 June 2011)

Haha at LEC!! (again).. I suspect it is the latter but am happy to be proven wrong.


----------



## oldvic (30 June 2011)

B-B said:



			And now sarcasm (sigh)

So there is not time to sit and look through the marks to work out who should and shouldnt win..especially when you have between 35-39 horses.

To make reference to the scales it would be more suppleness and not straight.  If you say more bend riders might then turn them by the rein more.  Quarters in might encourage riders to over correct by pushing the quarters out.  Reference should be made to the scales in the comments so needing more suppleness and straightness would be better.

More what from behind...what does that tell the rider?  More energy, more jump (canter)....   

Losing balance is another one...did the horse fall over?   Horses are on the shoulder to one degree or another so you could say it has downhill balance, needing better balance or needing more uphill (the positive) balance.
		
Click to expand...

At intermediate and advanced level it is normally 40 - 45 horses and 55 a day in FEI. 

Not straight is negative and you told me not to be negative. What's not straight? Quarters in tells the rider what has happened. If they know about the scales they will know that to straighten you put the shoulder in front of the quarters. If not they may well push the quarters out anyway.

To get more of anything from behind requires more energy so that answers the question. A canter lacking jump will lack energy.

Any being can lose balance without falling over. A horse can have momentary losses of balance without being in a downhill balance. Therefore needing more uphill balance is different. I can't see much difference between needing better balance and inclined to lose balance other than the latter gives credit for where the horse is in balance.

All judges have their way of saying things which is healthy as the same thing said in different ways gets through to the rider. You will find that on different judge training sessions, especially at the lower levels, you are told that you can or can't say this or that depending on who is taking it. There was a time when the expression "uphill" came in that some people said it was not a good thing to write as riders wouldn't understand it!!!! 

As you won't admit to being on a list I suspect you are a trainee judge - nothing wrong with that. You appear to be clinging to what you have been told. In time you will relax and become more original in what you say and how you express yourself. After 30 odd years you may even have time to know which tests are worth 65% and which are worth 70%!!!!!


----------



## oldvic (30 June 2011)

Kerilli - LECs question is too hard to answer - B-B has gone off so we can all go to bed!!!!!!


----------



## kerilli (30 June 2011)

Haha i am lying in bed nearly wetting myself laughing at LEC's post. Prob still not quite clear enough, bit of wiggle room there...  
Nice responses there, nn everyone!


----------



## SpruceRI (1 July 2011)

siennamum said:



			I think rules regarding turnout should be far more relaxed. I have ridden in really hot weather in a jacket and without a jacket at BE. It's not just a matter of only having the jacket on for 6 minutes. You have to take on and off number bib - which may not go over hat, & it's not safe to take jacket off whilst on board. So you have to get off, and it's just a faff tbh.

I also cannot afford these fabulous modern fabrics which people are talking about and only have a heavy wool hacking jacket, so being able to warm up and ride without it is a godsend.

I cannot for the life of me see what protection a layer of thin cotton will provide to your arms either, so have always been flummoxed by the long sleeves thing.

Bring on the day we can have dark johds I say!!
		
Click to expand...

Agree, agree and agree.


----------



## SpruceRI (1 July 2011)

diggerbez said:



			re. plaiting and turn out. sorry but i think its rude to the judge to not bother plaiting.
		
Click to expand...

So why is it not rude to the SJing and XC fence judges when competitors UNPLAIT before the jumping phases?  Why is the dressage judge so special??

Does this not look even 'ruder' than the the people who didn't plait in the first place?


----------



## B-B (1 July 2011)

Yes I was a trainee many years ago and havent lost sight of the fact that beginners dont understand and how comments can have the wrong effect.   Talking avrage sizes of class and I now judge the different levels.   Do I thoughy it so obvious I didnt need to answer.  

No one else feels the need to identify themselves?

Yes I am listed.....does that make a difference?

Is that proof?

Do you now demand my list or wil try to goad me into stating it?

Is that proof or do you now want my name?

Are you posting yours?

Do now what do you know? No more than before really.


----------



## B-B (1 July 2011)

Good point MH


----------



## B-B (1 July 2011)

Does typing that im listed really make that much difference to anybody?

Sad realy


----------



## Santa_Claus (1 July 2011)

B-B said:



			Does typing that im listed really make that much difference to anybody?

Sad realy
		
Click to expand...

It does when you were asking the same from others but refused to answer the question yourself!


----------



## kerilli (1 July 2011)

B-B said:



			Does typing that im listed really make that much difference to anybody?

Sad realy
		
Click to expand...

Well, I asked which List actually, because, as I said up there somewhere, it's nice to know the calibre of people we're talking to on here. most of us have posted many hundreds or even thousands of times so other users get a good picture, based on the content of those posts, of what people have done, how much experience they have (or not!) etc. 
I have a lot more respect for the opinions of a List 1 or 2 judge than I do for a List 6 judge...  
i don't ask for names, although many HHOers know who i am in real life because i had the names of my best event horses on my siggy banner with their comp photos for a few years (until i was told the banner was too big), so a quick cross-check on BE showed who i am (just a nobody who loves the sport, don't worry!) but anonymity is kept for everyone who wants it.

Can I just say that if, when judging, you don't do as I described above, and keep diligent track of %ages and your top few, if you just 'judge what's in front of you' per movement, does that mean that sometimes you get a bit of a shock at the scoreboard later when you realise that the one that wasn't quite as nice overall actually finished a mark ahead of another one, or won just on collectives overall? just wondered...


----------



## Tnavas (1 July 2011)

What is the matter with doing a test in a jacket - the rider will only be in it for at the most 10mins. 

In my time in the ring no one would even dream of asking to remove their jacket - correct turnout is etiquette.

JAcket can come off once you're out of the ring.

SAdly times are seriously changing and the etiquette is going out of riding. Really sad. I hate seeing bling on dressage horses too - its very distracting.


----------



## rvb99 (1 July 2011)

kerilli said:



			Erm, how many horse trials have you been to in the U.K. in hot weather? Because that isn't what happens...
ime, once one person is seen to be a test without a jacket, word spreads very quickly and lots more people ride in shirt-sleeves if they want to... they don't all go and check with their steward. 
An announcement is often made over the tannoy, about shirt-sleeve order in the SJ as well as the dressage. it might always be made, i don't know, i haven't always heard it but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened...
as for "BE approved gear", any plain shirt with sleeves is allowed afaik. do you want us all in uniform? i think riders would fight that, if only because of the additional cost!
		
Click to expand...

@kerilli
I have seen in some clothing company publicity that one of your personal goals is to improve safety ? 

The standard way to do this in any organisation is to have mature management process that considers the various risks, weighs up the different elements and if necessary implements plans. 

This result may be to simply do nothing or implement something. The point is that the issue is raised, managed and  registered, rather than swept under the carpet. Moreover, such risks are reviewed regularly and kept up to date. This is an issue that would perhaps  be reviewed during a particularly spell of hot weather. 

The fact that many senior members on this forum discredit even the ideas, and at the same time purport to show concern over  safety is, in my view, quite baffling. 

Accidents seldom occur due to a single point of failure, they are usually the result of a chain of events. The role of risk management is not to necessarily reduce every risk, but to make sure that you know and manage the risk. Heat on rider could be a problem, heat on a rider that in turn causes a mistake on course could be more serious. Is word and mouth the best way to pass a message that could impact a link of a chain? Perhaps it is, but the whole overall approach needs to be thought through.

Another fundamental aspect of risk and safety management is that anybody associated with the organisation and business needs to be able to provide feedback and input, which is in turn properly analysed. Even the most weird  suggestions may turn out to be relevant, when considered in the overall safety context.

It goes back to an earlier posting in which I said that I find the overall management approach quite immature, particularly for such a high risk activity. 

Finally safety is as much an issue of culture as it is of system. If this sport is serious about reducing accidents, then it must improve both its system of risk and safety management, its awareness of what it means, and a real willingness to take on board input from all quarters. 

BTW - I work in aviation safety ; but I am fully ready for the barrage of sarcastic remarks that this is likely to generate from other participants of this forum/thread.


----------



## kerilli (1 July 2011)

rvb99, yes, you're right, it is, and i concentrate my efforts primarily on safety of the horse (warning people about ways horses have managed to injure themselves - see post in CR yesterday mentioning width gap between bars in grille of internal stables, or post last week about horse managing to jam itself under partition in my lorry, etc), and xc safety (articles on EWW etc.) 
most eventing people, both riders and officials, when thinking of safety concerns, concentrate on the xc. one is very very unlikely to manage to kill oneself while doing a dressage test, so i'm happy to leave it to people to swelter if they are too daft to have the correct (lightweight but smart) clothing, or to have the nous to ask an official if they can remove their jacket. 
if they aren't fit/hydrated/capable enough to ride a dressage test without getting heat stroke, they aren't going to cope xc with a body protector on (they all insulate, far more than a jacket!) so maybe it is a good way to weed them out before letting them and their poor unsuspecting horse gallop towards fixed fences...
i am sorry if that is horribly simplistic, but it's how i look at it.

btw, the picture in my siggy... it was over 30 degrees that day, and everyone wore jackets, and then 35 degrees with no breeze on xc day...   and only a few grooms got heatstroke. no riders.


----------



## susie2193 (1 July 2011)

Well put Kerilli, this I believe is what you have said since you first posted on this thread, and 99% of replies have agreed with you.

Can we now let this drop and all get on with our lives !!!


----------



## meardsall_millie (1 July 2011)

rvb99 said:



			many senior members on this forum
		
Click to expand...

I didn't realise there were different levels of forum membership? 

Is that done by post count or age?  Or perhaps there is some job description and interview process to go through that I've missed......


----------



## MagicMelon (1 July 2011)

siennamum - Totally agree.  

I dont see why its "rude" to not plait for dressage. WHY?!  I've made the effort to wash my (grey) horse for you, travelled miles to the event, spent a fortune to be there - yet its rude to not swirl my horses mane into little balls?!  Good grief.  I also dont get the whole long sleeve thing for XC.  I wear long sleeves, but simply roll them up (like many others) thus totally pointless.  A thin bit of material will do absolutely ziltch.

Our sport will remain back in the dark ages if this mentality continues.


----------



## kerilli (1 July 2011)

MagicMelon, i think long sleeves xc will do a bit of protecting, actually. i always wear a rugby jersey (ancient, but still reasonably thick material) and only ever shove up to below my elbows. i'd rather that gets scuffed/shredded than my skin, if it comes to it... grazes HURT, and i'm a wimp!  
i'm a stickler about plaiting, it looks so much nicer and really shows the neck off, and only takes 10-20 mins fgs.

mm, you're right, no such thing as seniority on here imho. all experience is valid, i don't care if someone's 19 or 99.

susie, yes, you're right!


----------



## OneInAMillion (1 July 2011)

kerilli said:



			mm, you're right, no such thing as seniority on here imho. all experience is valid, i don't care if someone's 19 or 99.
		
Click to expand...

Are you ready to be jumped on for saying that?!  fwiw I couldn't agree with you more!


----------



## kerilli (1 July 2011)

OneInAMillion said:



			Are you ready to be jumped on for saying that?!  fwiw I couldn't agree with you more!
		
Click to expand...

well, i know for a fact that we lost a really good poster because of just that, which is a real shame imho. she's had lots of ace instruction and rides absolutely beautifully, and had a lot to impart... we need people like that. must admit i never saw a thread where anyone said anything about her age, but apparently they did.


----------



## rvb99 (1 July 2011)

meardsall_millie said:



			I didn't realise there were different levels of forum membership? 

Is that done by post count or age?  Or perhaps there is some job description and interview process to go through that I've missed......

 

Click to expand...

as in their H&H forum status - foal, yearling ... veteran etc.


----------



## Swirlymurphy (1 July 2011)

Can we agree to disagree now folks?  I've run out of gin and need to go and do the horses.  Interesting debate, can't remember what the OP was on about, but I've enjoyed your company (generally speaking anyway!)


----------



## meardsall_millie (1 July 2011)

rvb99 said:



			as in their H&H forum status - foal, yearling ... veteran etc.
		
Click to expand...

Ah OK, just wanting to clarify your ground rules.  So we're looking at postcount then.

So a 'Senior Member' is someone with a higher post count - 'them that posts the most, knows the most'....? 

So oldvic has 750+, Kerilli has 22,600 (even I have 2,600) - B-B has 125 and you have 25.  What does that tell us then.....?


----------



## humblepie (1 July 2011)

Only just seen this thread and must admit haven't read all of it but I think that unless someone has a medical condition which means they would find it difficult, that it should be possible to wear a jacket for a dressage test of a few minutes.  In the show ring we wear full kit for however long the class takes.  I have stood in the midday sun at Hickstead in a class of over 25 show horses  roasting nicely in my wool jacket.  Admittedly a lot of that is standing but the go round lasts longer than a dressage test but you can't whip your jacket off as you stand in the line up (mind you perhaps that would be a way of winning if I didn't have much on underneath).

And the stewards/judges etc wear suits and bowler hats for the whole time and have my greatest respect for doing so and keeping up standards.


----------



## oldvic (1 July 2011)

meardsall_millie said:



			Ah OK, just wanting to clarify your ground rules.  So we're looking at postcount then.

So a 'Senior Member' is someone with a higher post count - 'them that posts the most, knows the most'....? 

So oldvic has 750+, Kerilli has 22,600 (even I have 2,600) - B-B has 125 and you have 25.  What does that tell us then.....?   

Click to expand...

I better get on and post a bit more then!!! Maybe that would make me a better judge!!!!


----------



## kerilli (1 July 2011)

oldvic said:



			I better get on and post a bit more then!!! Maybe that would make me a better judge!!!!
		
Click to expand...

haha, well i'd obviously be the best judge in the world ever then, with absolutely no training, if i tried it... a bit like that odious, ridiculous quote (is it from Lady Catherine in Pride and Prejudice?) that she's sure she would have been excellent at the piano if she had ever bothered to learn!

 or maybe i spent far too long on here while recuperating, and got addicted!


----------



## oldvic (1 July 2011)

Kerilli - why don't you start judging? It would give you another string to your bow and it can be very rewarding.


----------



## kerilli (1 July 2011)

oldvic said:



			Kerilli - why don't you start judging? It would give you another string to your bow and it can be very rewarding.
		
Click to expand...

i've done a little bit at unaff and enjoyed it (and didn't get attacked afterwards, so i hope it was okay), but i don't really have the back-up at home to be away all day for training or for judging though. maybe when i have fewer horses or better back-up.


----------



## VGM (1 July 2011)

i havent read all of the replies but i keep seeing about why tack check at be. ill tell you why. as long as there are rules people will break them or at least try to. upwards of 200 competitors on one day. there will be someone who whether deliberately or not doesnt abide by the rules. i have tack checked and had someone whos bit was incorrect. as they turned away the bit pulled through the horses mouth and they were in a waterford. there was one horse before them. i think it is easier bsja or bd for the judge to check the horse but at the end of the day be rules are different in places to other federations so you cannot expect three judges for three different things to be able to keep an eye on every competitor. what is to say that an eventer is within rules at the sj ring but not cross country. you cant expect fence judges cross country to pick up on illegal tack.


----------



## Baggybreeches (1 July 2011)

oldvic said:



			Kerilli - why don't you start judging? It would give you another string to your bow and it can be very rewarding.
		
Click to expand...

I second this! I am not into aff dressage judging but I am doing a little bit of unaff and the local RS like me judging their little competitions. But I am doing my judges assessment for BSHA and SHB(GB), I enjoy showing but I don't have the money to buy myself a suitable horse and I know the failings of the ones I do have, so judging will provide me with my 'show fix' without the expense and hassle of taking my own horses.


----------



## smac (1 July 2011)

diggerbez said:



			this is getting better and better  go kerrili! 

Click to expand...




"Can we now let this drop and all get on with our lives !!! "

Whilst part of me agrees with this- I also have basically missed a week of Eastenders because of this post- and would be frightfully lost without it!

Part of me wonders why the powers that be haven't stepped in but one rule for one I don't know!

I got a bottle of wine and a tub of Terry's chocolate orange segments here if anyone wants a quick breather...


----------



## smac (1 July 2011)

Also all those who commented about technical gear being too expensive- Come on guys, you event, minimum of what £100 an event?! That is a MAXIMUM of 2 events that you would have to miss in the whole season to buy a £30/£40 technical top and a decent technical fabric jacket- (Pikeur do a rather nice one for well under £200- that is machine washable as well)

I know money tight etc etc but either miss an event and buy the gear- or event and don't complain!!


----------



## kerilli (1 July 2011)

Smac, why would the powers that be step in? There hasn't been any bullying or outing, it's been a fairly interesting debate, i thought, with some good points raised here & there... It had never occurred to me that being plaited makes some horses show off more, for e.g.  
You didn't have to read it all & miss 'stenders...


----------



## smac (1 July 2011)

I agree -however I also feel in previous threads the powers have stepped in when they neednot of... anyway different subject

Thats alright I have caught parts on catch up...


----------



## oldvic (1 July 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			I second this! I am not into aff dressage judging but I am doing a little bit of unaff and the local RS like me judging their little competitions. But I am doing my judges assessment for BSHA and SHB(GB), I enjoy showing but I don't have the money to buy myself a suitable horse and I know the failings of the ones I do have, so judging will provide me with my 'show fix' without the expense and hassle of taking my own horses.
		
Click to expand...

Good for you - go for it. It can be very interesting to be involved with different aspects of horse sports be it judging, riding, stewarding, training, fence judging, writing or whatever. In fact I think all competitors should put themselves on the other side of the fence in some way.


----------



## TarrSteps (2 July 2011)

^ That.  Everyone should try to be on the other side of the fence a bit - it's pretty illuminating!  (I think it works the other way, too - I've known experienced organisers who came to competing late in the game and came away with a much better understanding of why competitors sometimes behave the way they do!)  Scribing/writing is particularly useful for anyone riding dressage. 

I'm off to judge dressage in the morning . . . this thread has frightened me now, as I'm never going to live up to expectations!


----------



## windsorblue (2 July 2011)

meardsall_millie said:



			Ah OK, just wanting to clarify your ground rules.  So we're looking at postcount then.

So a 'Senior Member' is someone with a higher post count - 'them that posts the most, knows the most'....? 

So oldvic has 750+, Kerilli has 22,600 (even I have 2,600) - B-B has 125 and you have 25.  What does that tell us then.....?   

Click to expand...

Errrrrrrr - as a complete newcomer - some people have more time to post than others?


----------



## kerilli (2 July 2011)

windsorblue said:



			Errrrrrrr - as a complete newcomer - some people have more time to post than others?
		
Click to expand...

yes exactly, post count means nothing other than that other posters 'know' you a bit a better.


----------



## Baggybreeches (2 July 2011)

windsorblue said:



			Errrrrrrr - as a complete newcomer - some people have more time to post than others?
		
Click to expand...

Or to put it another way, some people are better at avoiding work than other


----------



## OneInAMillion (3 July 2011)

Also, I quite often just post saying "well done", or "you've come such a long way" etc etc. So that can amount to an awful lot of posts which have no relevance to my riding abilities


----------



## TarrSteps (3 July 2011)

Bizarrely, the very first thing that happened yesterday was a competitor came up to ask the organiser and I if we would excuse jackets!  I couldn't help laughing, which did make everyone look at me funny. And even though


----------



## TarrSteps (3 July 2011)

Grrr phone. ...

even though it wasn't really that hot it was unaffiliated and lots of kids and novice riders so of course I said it was fine by me. Maybe I'm soft but I'd probably say yes at that level regardless. 

I genuinely did not and do not care BUT if you looked at the results you might think otherwise. Quite a few people did ride in jackets and they were, almost without exception, clearly the more experienced combinations, and people who took it very seriously. They tended to be riding green, but very smart youngsters or be obviously well trained more novice riders on school master types or keen kids on very competent ponies. 

So, unfortunately, their scores reflected this experience and ability, it had nothing to do with them wearing jackets but someone observing with a preconceived idea could have thought otherwise.


----------



## oldvic (3 July 2011)

That would have made me laugh to. But it's interesting isn't it how people will wear them anyway. Is it significant that the highest level that I have been asked (a courtesy is it ok by the BE steward) is at intermediate and never yet at FEI - even at 1*?


----------



## kerilli (3 July 2011)

oldvic said:



			That would have made me laugh to. But it's interesting isn't it how people will wear them anyway. Is it significant that the highest level that I have been asked (a courtesy is it ok by the BE steward) is at intermediate and never yet at FEI - even at 1*?
		
Click to expand...

that's cos we all want pretty pics of us in our tails... esp at 1*!  

my siggy pic, it was 30 degrees + that day with no wind at all, totally sweltering, but it never occurred to me for a second to ask for 'shirt sleeve order', no way, i'd have thought it was totally unprofessional (not that i am a Pro by any stretch of the imagination!)

TarrSteps, face it, you just couldn't get beyond the aura of professionalism given by the jackets, could you?


----------



## Puppy (3 July 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			Or to put it another way, some people are better at avoiding work than other 

Click to expand...

Hehe! That's probably pretty accurate wrt to my post count


----------



## Festive_Felicitations (3 July 2011)

LOL TarrStepps I'd have laughed as well!

With regards to the FEI levels I think that if you are dedicated enough and mad (brave) enough to ride at that level sweltering in a jacket for a few minutes through the DR /SJ round is nothing! 

I think I have said before but at comps here it is not unsual for the rails of the warm-up area be decorated with jackets as people warm up in shirts and claim their jacket just before going in. It works an a simple system of some honesty and 'minders' (family/friends blackmailed into coming)

Slightly off topic - was talking to a friend about jackets and the heat and they told me about a big 3DE when the XC day was such a schorcher that they cut the jumping efforts and course length to minimum allowed for all classes. In the 3* there was a fall at the water jump where both horse and rider having stood up promptly turned round and lay down again for another nice cool soak before leaving the water (to loud applause!). No idea if it is true or eventing legend but a lovely story!


----------



## WellyBaggins (3 July 2011)

kerilli said:



			TarrSteps, face it, you just couldn't get beyond the aura of professionalism given by the jackets, could you?  

Click to expand...

*Sniggers*


----------

