# Plans for 'super dairy' withdrawn



## I_am_a_cucumber (17 February 2011)

I remember there was a thread on here about the Nocton 'super dairy' a while ago.  Looks like the plans have now been withdrawn due to objections by the Environment Agency: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-12485392


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## Maesfen (17 February 2011)

Thank God for that, it would have been appalling for the cattle and the environment too.  No grazing animal should be confined 24/7 365 days a year, it's totally unnatural and cruel IMHO.


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## martlin (17 February 2011)

I'm in two minds about it, TBH.
I mean, putting aside the welfare etc argument, the Environment Agency's objection was and objection ''on principle'' and IMHO that is wrong - EA should not have ''principle'', it is there to observe the letter of the law.
As to welfare argument - I'm not too happy about zero grazers, but then again, modern Holstein is not designed conformationally to be grazing away from the parlour and walk twice a day to be milked... If you listen to the experts, it is actually easier to keep them sound and healthy in a loafing paddocks arrangement than acres and acres of pasture.


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## Horseyscot (17 February 2011)

If the general public were willing to pay the prices, farming wouldn't even be thinking this way.
Intensive farming = cheaper produce.
I didn't really like the idea of it, however I do know the animals would be well cared for. As far as the cattle never being out to graze naturally, I don't like this idea either. What are peoples views on top equestrian yards, any discipline where the horses are stabled 24/7?

We are Dairy farmers, however on a minute scale compared to the above proposal. We have 150 milking herd, who graze out all summer. Its just my OH and FIL and we get extra help as and when needed. But little farms like ours are being pushed out by the big boys. This will continue to happen unless the consumers support the smaller farm, but although they scream and shout at ideas like the super dairy, they still continue to buy supermarket farm produce which is imported or inferior quality.


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## SusieT (17 February 2011)

Many dairies are already on no grazing systems..


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## martlin (17 February 2011)

SusieT said:



			Many dairies are already on no grazing systems..
		
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True... but your point is?


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## stencilface (17 February 2011)

Couldn't be happier tbh, I would imagine the EA also took into account the massive amounts of waste produced in one location?  That would be a nightmare to get rid of.

Thing is, people are consuming less cow dairy products now, many people have rice, oat or soy milk (the latter for me) and other options are sheep and goats milk.  People should be prepared to stump up the money for a premium product imho 

I don't know why this country (and other western ones) has an obsession with dairy - does no one else think its weird that we consume the milk of another species, way past our weaning age - yuck!

Having said that, can't say I don't enjoy a bit of cheddar


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## combat_claire (17 February 2011)

Well said Horsey Scot


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## combat_claire (17 February 2011)

martlin said:



			, the Environment Agency's objection was and objection ''on principle'' and IMHO that is wrong - EA should not have ''principle'', it is there to observe the letter of the law.
		
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They have objected on concrete points relating to the location of the farm over a principal limestone aquifer:

"The Lincolnshire Limestone is a highly fractured aquifer and lacks protective drift geology. This means pollutants could travel quickly to the groundwater below, the agency says.

In a detailed 2,200-word statement, it says that in environmental terms, a dairy unit would not normally be considered high-risk. However, we consider that in this location the production, handling and conveyance of large volumes of slurry and digestate (slurry following treatment by anaerobic digestion) immediately on top of an un-protected aquifer presents a significant risk to the water environment, it says, adding that the 3,770 cows will produce more than 80,000 m3 of digestate each year.

The agency states that in 2009, the dairy industry was responsible for 324 pollution incidents in England, a quarter of all reported farming related incidents."


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## mon (17 February 2011)

So we will consume food once again produced abroad with probably less welfare eg danish and dutch bacon whilst our industries are ruled by even more red tape most animals are kept in situations nature didnt intend even house dogs, goldfish gerbils pet birds and horses that is just how us humans choose to keep them


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## tristar (17 February 2011)

thank god for that.
i live in the middle of 3 large dairy farms, every day i see the cows walking miles grazing and the little calves playing, you can see, as if any evidence was needed that they are displaying natural behavoir, and enjoying every minute of it.
if they want  a super dairy they need to invent an udder that can just lie on the floor all day and produce milk somehow, but not expect normal animals to be subjected to such deprivations of their rights to move around normally.
and yes i am perfectly willing to pay more for milk and meat if its ensures that farm animals can have a better lifestyle.


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## martlin (17 February 2011)

Combat Claire, the council has logged the EA's objection as an objection on principle - that's what I was referring to.
Tristar - ermm, but a modern Holstein is not that far off an udder lying around all day and producing milk. That's the point, I'm not quite sure that their health is better when they are walking twice a day to be milked - their feet are not withstanding their weight.
Not to mention that dairy cows do not graze with their calves playing around them


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## tristar (17 February 2011)

well where i live they do, infact some of them graze outdoors most of the year, depending on the weather and ground conditions including holsteins, and the calves do stay out with their mothers, also the blond aquitaine herd are out at the moment, like i said i can see them all day so there is no disputing it.


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## martlin (17 February 2011)

I wonder how do they get milked then, because if the calves stay with mothers, they suckle them taking away the precious produce...
ETS Blond d'Aquitaine is a beef breed, so they would be grazing outdoors with calves on mothers.


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## Maisie2 (17 February 2011)

Yep, well said Horseyscot.  I know of someone in this area who is hoping to build a 'super dairy'


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## tristar (17 February 2011)

this is getting silly, obviously they don't stay with the mothers all the time or there would be no milk to collect, but the  different breeds including milk cows can be seen out with the calves for periods of time after the birth, and i am often think how far they must walk during the because everytime i see them they're on the move grazing and this goes on all day, i mentioned the others breeds in the context that even they too can be out in feb moving around as nature intended if the weather is suitable.
i get enormous pleasure from seeing them at such close quarters, just watching them is relaxing as they browse and move around freely.


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## mon (17 February 2011)

So farmers are cruel getting cattle in so they dont poach ground all cattle have to do is eat and produce milk or meat, food water and bedding is all provided and we have sheep in either with lambs or waiting to lamb, but that is no different to alot of livery yards that dont offer all year grazing,


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## martlin (17 February 2011)

mon said:



			So farmers are cruel getting cattle in so they dont poach ground all cattle have to do is eat and produce milk or meat, food water and bedding is all provided and we have sheep in either with lambs or waiting to lamb, but that is no different to alot of livery yards that dont offer all year grazing,
		
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Of course they are 

In an ideal world, all our stock would winter out - less work, less bedding, less feed, less hassle. We are not in an ideal world, though, so the cows have been in since mid November and the ewes since early December.
Horses are out, though 
Tristar, unless the farm you are talking about operates some strange system, the dairy calves are taken away from their mothers after they had their colostrum, they are not allowed back to suckle - every litre counts.
Some farms operate a mixed system where they have a number of beef or dual purpose cows, that suckle their own calves and the dairy calves. It's easier to raise the dairy calves on the bucket though, so that system is not seen that often.


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## mon (17 February 2011)

lots of cows arent even maternal, so stress of taking calf off not that bad, you dont breed for maternal traits. without knowing All the facts people can only speak from the heart, but I know I would prefer to buy British food where possable


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## Sarah Sum1 (17 February 2011)

Poor calves, i'm sure they are not happy about being dragged away from their mothers. 

I am glad the super dairy has not been approved.


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## martlin (17 February 2011)

I hope you don't think the calves are taken away from their mothers only in a ''super dairy''?


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## Sarah Sum1 (17 February 2011)

martlin said:



			I hope you don't think the calves are taken away from their mothers only in a ''super dairy''?
		
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Good grief no. I know they are taken away from dairy cows in general.

Their milk is for us humans, not their calves.


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## martlin (17 February 2011)

Sarah sum1 said:



			Good grief no. I know they are taken away from dairy cows in general.

Their milk is for us humans, not their calves.
		
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 Glad we cleared that up, it's just your post read a bit like that, you see. That you are glad super dairy was scrapped because poor calves are not happy


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## amage (17 February 2011)

tristar said:



			well where i live they do, infact some of them graze outdoors most of the year, depending on the weather and ground conditions including holsteins, and the calves do stay out with their mothers, also the blond aquitaine herd are out at the moment, like i said i can see them all day so there is no disputing it.
		
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It is quite likely that they are cull cows that are being used to rear calves! We would do this from time to time with an older cow who is due to be culled. Let her rear two calves so that you are not taking good milk out of the tank and you do not have the extra expense of dump milk or antibiotic milk going through the parlour. Or given that prices for bull calves are going fairly well at the mo (at least over here they are) the cull cows are giving the bull calves a good start and so they are sold quicker! Cows can't produce ilk on grass alone...it may look nice to see them wandering around the field grazing etc but I guarantee you that if she is offered the choice between shed and feed or pasture and grass she'll look for the shed particularly at this time of year!


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## tristar (18 February 2011)

at certain times most bull calves are taken at birth and shot, i have heard newly calved cows calling all night after being separated at birth from their calves, so i think they do suffer great distress and have maternal instincts, in the same way they have an instinct to move around and graze.
the super dairy project is trying to push nature beyond its limits, vaste areas of land are used to produce maize and other supplement cereal feeds, millions of tons of hay and straw, all to produce dairy foods, and millions of gallons of diesel, and for one am not at all certain that dairy is that healthfull for humans, the proteins are not compatible with our digestion, it can be a major source of allergies, unlike goats milk,  there are many other sources of calcium etc. I for one could live without milk if only to diminish the total exploitation and to see an end to what animals go through to give us something on a scale that we do not really need


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## NOISYGIRL (18 February 2011)

Good, I saw a prog on one eve about the ones in America I think it was, it was so sad the poor cows never saw grass or the outdoors


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## Maesfen (18 February 2011)

We have two farms at least around here, both family farms that know every hair on every cow's head and who was the grandmother of each of them if you see what I mean.  They both make a nice living, not extravagant but comfortable with about 150 milking at one time.  Without exception their calves, both bull and heifer, are on the cow for nearly a week as they say it gives the best start to their calves and keeps the cows happier which in turn means their production stays up as they're not stressed.  What they lose in production for that time is more than compensated for in less milk powder, veterinary and man hours costs alone which mean a lot when you're only a one with part time help band.  I don't know if it would work as well at the larger farms who are scraping for every penny profit though.


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## tristar (18 February 2011)

this is what i see, and a lovely sight it is, new born calves out with the cow, good luck to the  farmers.


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## Tiny Fluffy Coblet (18 February 2011)

If the general public were willing to pay the prices, farming wouldn't even be thinking this way.
		
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I agree - to an extent.

I would love to be able to afford sustainable, british, excellent welfare based food. However I am currently nearly vegi anyway (purely economical) I do only buy free range eggs but I am living off 50 pounds a month for food. If I spent any more than this I would not be able to keep my car on the road, go out and have 2 drinks once a month or go and see my friends once a month. 

If I was paid enough to afford expensive, nice food AS WELL as nearly having a social life, keeping my car on the road (so I can keep my job) and paying rent (something that is going to be even harder soon because I want to live in my own bedsit instead of sharing a house with a bunch of mingers).....I would get nice food. At the moment keeping the car and therefore the job and keeping a roof over my head takes priority so I live off cheap noodles.


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## Sarah Sum1 (18 February 2011)

I may give up dairy altogether. I think it would probably be more appropiate to drink humans breast milk, than milk intented for a cow. Perhaps we could have a mass human milk bar! 

I will research into it further, must be a huge gap in the market


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## Sarah Sum1 (18 February 2011)

Cows don't like their milk being used for human consumption. Look, this one is trying to escape from it all


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## marmalade76 (18 February 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Thank God for that, it would have been appalling for the cattle and the environment too.  No grazing animal should be confined 24/7 365 days a year, it's totally unnatural and cruel IMHO.
		
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100% agree.


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## marmalade76 (18 February 2011)

Maesfen said:



			We have two farms at least around here, both family farms that know every hair on every cow's head and who was the grandmother of each of them if you see what I mean.  They both make a nice living, not extravagant but comfortable with about 150 milking at one time.  Without exception their calves, both bull and heifer, are on the cow for nearly a week as they say it gives the best start to their calves and keeps the cows happier which in turn means their production stays up as they're not stressed.  What they lose in production for that time is more than compensated for in less milk powder, veterinary and man hours costs alone which mean a lot when you're only a one with part time help band.  I don't know if it would work as well at the larger farms who are scraping for every penny profit though.
		
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It's the same on OH's cousin's farm, calves are not taken from their mothers at birth and bull calves are never shot, but they are a small dairy milking about 60 cows.


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## Leaf (18 February 2011)

this one is still goin ahead at the moment http://www.farmersguardian.com/home...sbury-site-for-£150m-mega-dairy/34212.article

this is not how dairying should be...


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## martlin (18 February 2011)

jockmaster said:



			this one is still goin ahead at the moment http://www.farmersguardian.com/home...sbury-site-for-£150m-mega-dairy/34212.article

this is not how dairying should be...
		
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But that's a milk processing plant... not a farm - there won't be any cows there...


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## Leaf (18 February 2011)

I am aware that there are no cows there... I am not a complete twit, my point is that a very large and unwanted "dairy" is being built to buy milk at low prices from british farmers (I am well aware that you are one of those) and more likely brought in from europe cutting out the British Farmer further to churn out rubbery cheese, and other such crud for Tescos.


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## martlin (18 February 2011)

I wouldn't worry too much... it's been tried and hasn't worked before 
BTW I'm not a dairy farmer , heck, I'm not even British 

I didn't suggest you are a twit, far from it, just couldn't quite understand what a processing plant has to do with dairy cow welfare


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## Leaf (18 February 2011)

no i am a twit.... just not a complete one! I am pleased that the Nocton Dairy has been abandoned for now but my concern is that I think Arlo were planning to purchase their milk from them and although I loath the thought of a super dairy, at least it would be under UK welfare law. If they still go ahead in Aston Clinton (which they may not now fingerscrossed) they will purchase milk from Europe where the welfare laws are far more lax, and of course because it is processed in the UK the average Joe will assume it is from British farmers...


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## martlin (18 February 2011)

TBH, I'm not that sure the average British Joe cares that much  I mean, people say they care, until they are faced with a choice at the supermarket :/


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## Leaf (18 February 2011)

martlin said:



			TBH, I'm not that sure the average British Joe cares that much  I mean, people say they care, until they are faced with a choice at the supermarket :/
		
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don't even get me started!! I could give myself an aneurysm on that subject...... (insert a smiley face of your choice here)


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## Sarah Sum1 (18 February 2011)

Couple of questions for those who may know. I always buy organic cheese and milk. What does organic mean when it comes to cheese and milk? I guess i'm thinking the cows run free, less crap in it etc 

Also, how can I ensure it comes from british farmers? Does it say so on packet? Should think it does, but just checking.

I will be giving it up soon, but can't get my head around the vegan cheese  it tastes like rubberised vomit  So am going to wean myself off cheese altogether.


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## Horseyscot (18 February 2011)

martlin said:



			TBH, I'm not that sure the average British Joe cares that much  I mean, people say they care, until they are faced with a choice at the supermarket :/
		
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My point exactly yet they 'care' enough to complain plenty, though they don't put their money where their mouth is, literally


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## martlin (18 February 2011)

organic means mainly good for the soil (which doesn't necessarily mean tasty or good for you ) When it comes to dairy, the cows are grazers and their diet is free of certain things, there are restrictions on fertilisers and weedkillers etc.

Yes, it says on the packet if it is produced in UK and from what ''nationality'' milk, too. then there is the red tractor icon 

Sorry, I don't think I'm that good at explaining 

ETS: It turns out that organic dairy cows don't have to be outside grazing, so go figure
http://www.dardni.gov.uk/ruralni/in...ion/organic_dairy/organic-milk-production.htm


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## Horseyscot (18 February 2011)

Sarah sum1 said:



			Couple of questions for those who may know. I always buy organic cheese and milk. What does organic mean when it comes to cheese and milk? I guess i'm thinking the cows run free, less crap in it etc 

Also, how can I ensure it comes from british farmers? Does it say so on packet? Should think it does, but just checking.

I will be giving it up soon, but can't get my head around the vegan cheese  it tastes like rubberised vomit  So am going to wean myself off cheese altogether.
		
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Basically no chemicals have been used in the production of the 'goods' ie only natural/ herbal produce used to treat sick animal (might as well treat them with water half the time) also no chemicals used on the land they graze/ or their feeding comes from.


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## Leaf (18 February 2011)

can I ask why you are turning Vegan? is it due to welfare or diet?


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## Sarah Sum1 (18 February 2011)

jockmaster said:



			can I ask why you are turning Vegan? is it due to welfare or diet?
		
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Many reasons really. I was dairy intolerant as a child. I had to have soya milk as a baby etc. I don't think dairy agrees with me to this day. It is also to do with welfare. So a bit of both really.


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## marmalade76 (18 February 2011)

Personally, I buy only British meat and dairy products, and British fruit and veg when possible. I would be quite happy to pay a bit more for a pint of milk, it is the supermarkets that are responsible for driving farmers out of business. I'm sure that most folks would not notice if a pint went up a few pence and would still buy it.

I don't agree with super dairies, not just from the welfare POV but also the enviromental impact. And, FWIW, I do not agree with keeping horses in 24/7 and would never keep mine on a yard that restricted turnout.


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## Leaf (18 February 2011)

Sarah sum1 said:



			Many reasons really. I was dairy intolerant as a child. I had to have soya milk as a baby etc. I don't think dairy agrees with me to this day. It is also to do with welfare. So a bit of both really. 

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have you tried sheeps milk/cheese? it is far easier to tolerated by people with cow's milk issues. Welfare wise the lambs are not shot at birth but raised and finished as with usual meat production a a terminal sire is often used.


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## tristar (19 February 2011)

fluffy little coblet, i hope things improve for you soon and you get a decent diet, 

was'nt there a big cooperative milk processing plant that went bust last year? maybe that's why they want to build another


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## letrec_fan (19 February 2011)

Re turning vegan, I was a vegetarian and have recently turned vegan. If you think about it dairy is totally unnecessary for us and we can eat fine without it. Healthier too, really. In the last few years, I have realised the welfare is pretty bad too, and that is the main reason I have given up for. I started to go off dairy before I turned vegan, and once you don't eat it for a while you realise how fatty/creamy it is when you try it again. Now I have made the decison to become vegan I know I won't go back to eating dairy because I really don't like it either now. I have been experimenting with vegan baking. One of the only things I can think of you can't make a replacement for is things like meringue because there is only really powdered egg substitute I think (which I haven't tried cooking with). Agree with Sarah sum 1 though, some of that soya vegan stuff is naff.


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## WoopsiiD (19 February 2011)

Before we knock 'Average Joe' for not supporting British farmers not all of us have had the 'luxury' of growing up on a farm/in rural bliss/in the countryside.

Not everyone knows the insides and outsides of farming. Its not that average joe doesn't care its more likely that poor old average joe reads whats on the labels and thinks they are doing their best.

I always buy british meats, I always buy free range, I do actually prefer british varieties of apples. However, up until I passed my test I was reliant on 'The Peasant Carrier'(bus) to do my shopping and sadly it only went as far as Tesco and not the farmers market. I know lots of people in this situation. 

I would happily pay a bit more for produce that came direct from the farm-but I'm not going to pay some of the silly prices just because the chicken flesh has a golden glow. (Sorry but an extra £5???? thats fuel in my car, or the heating on for an extra few days)


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## amandap (19 February 2011)

I_am_a_cucumber said:



I remember there was a thread on here about the Nocton 'super dairy' a while ago.  Looks like the plans have now been withdrawn due to objections by the Environment Agency: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-12485392

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That's the best news I've had for days!


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## PoppyAnderson (19 February 2011)

NOISYGIRL said:



			Good, I saw a prog on one eve about the ones in America I think it was, it was so sad the poor cows never saw grass or the outdoors
		
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Some don't, you're right. However, they do have the opportunity to socialise, wander around, lie down as and when they want and lead a reasonable quality of life. There are plenty of other factory farmed animals far more deserving of the bleeding hearts. There are clearly some knowledgable people on here commenting and there are others who really haven't got a scooby about it and just say, ah, isn't it all really really cruel, poor likkle calves and cows.


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## Horseyscot (19 February 2011)

WoopsiiD said:



			Before we knock 'Average Joe' for not supporting British farmers not all of us have had the 'luxury' of growing up on a farm/in rural bliss/in the countryside.

Not everyone knows the insides and outsides of farming. Its not that average joe doesn't care its more likely that poor old average joe reads whats on the labels and thinks they are doing their best.

I always buy british meats, I always buy free range, I do actually prefer british varieties of apples. However, up until I passed my test I was reliant on 'The Peasant Carrier'(bus) to do my shopping and sadly it only went as far as Tesco and not the farmers market. I know lots of people in this situation. 

I would happily pay a bit more for produce that came direct from the farm-but I'm not going to pay some of the silly prices just because the chicken flesh has a golden glow. (Sorry but an extra £5???? thats fuel in my car, or the heating on for an extra few days)
		
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WoopsiiD, I for one am not knocking the 'Average Joe' , like you say, its the Supermarkets that are the real culprits, and as you say, many people can't afford to pay more for their groceries, lots of people are struggling as it is. However, lots of the people complaining are the 'average Joes' and I was just pointing out that whilst they complaining about these super dairies and the like, that but buying cheaper produce, they are actually supporting this kind of farming


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## mymare (19 February 2011)

mon said:



			lots of cows arent even maternal, so stress of taking calf off not that bad,
		
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You're kidding, right?  Have you ever seen a cow that has just calved?  Or tried approaching it/it's calf?  With the majority you'd be taking your life in your hands, they are VERY maternal, and very protective.  




martlin said:



			TBH, I'm not that sure the average British Joe cares that much  I mean, people say they care, until they are faced with a choice at the supermarket :/
		
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^^^ this.


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## WoopsiiD (19 February 2011)

Horseyscot said:



			WoopsiiD, I for one am not knocking the 'Average Joe' , like you say, its the Supermarkets that are the real culprits, and as you say, many people can't afford to pay more for their groceries, lots of people are struggling as it is. However, lots of the people complaining are the 'average Joes' and I was just pointing out that whilst they complaining about these super dairies and the like, that but buying cheaper produce, they are actually supporting this kind of farming

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SHOCK HORROR!!!

I agree with you PMSL...ya scot!! 

Supermarkets do have a lot to answer for. Slightly off topic...did anyone else watch the Fish Fight thing?
I'll be honest, I thought Dolphin Friendly was the way to go......I now realise that unless its Pole caught Tuna you may as well be eating the turtles/dolphins/sharks.

N.B-Sainsburys own brand IS pole caught and is just as tasty as the other well knowns!


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## mon (19 February 2011)

I have seen plenty of fresh calved cows most are maternal but some dont care, just like sheep, some will mother both some one and a few neither, I am a livestock farmer and nothing worse than a dam which turns on its offspring but does happen, just that in suckler cows and sheep it is bred in them and dairy cows not high on breeding traits.


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## PoppyAnderson (19 February 2011)

Horseyscot said:



			Basically no chemicals have been used in the production of the 'goods' ie only natural/ herbal produce used to treat sick animal (might as well treat them with water half the time) also no chemicals used on the land they graze/ or their feeding comes from.
		
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Not true. Antibiotics are used in exactly the same way on organic and non-organic cows - it's just that the gap between finishing the course of medicine and re-starting milking again is longer in organic cows.


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## Horseyscot (20 February 2011)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Not true. Antibiotics are used in exactly the same way on organic and non-organic cows - it's just that the gap between finishing the course of medicine and re-starting milking again is longer in organic cows.
		
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Sorry, I stand corrected. We're not organic so I'm no expert (obviously )


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## Horseyscot (20 February 2011)

WoopsiiD said:



			SHOCK HORROR!!!

I agree with you PMSL...ya scot!! 

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LOL!! Agreeing with a Scot You must be ill


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## SonnysHumanSlave (20 February 2011)

Hang on where do you get local milk??
I thought my local tescos sold local milk? 
I just normally buy what they have stacks of.
I assumed the milk was like the potatos - from suffolk?!?!!
Am I wrong, i'd rather buy local then imported milk.


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## Andyy123 (20 February 2011)

I live on a dairy farm and we are setting up with robots that will milk the cows for us. they will live in all year round but they have a 2 month 'holiday' if you like before they calve so they're not stuck in all the time! I also heard about a university study that has shown that cows prefer living indoors when they had the choice. With modern times as they are, these 'super dairies' will become all the more common in all areas.


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## JoBird (20 February 2011)

I used to live on a dairy farm and used to think what a wonderful life the cows had. It is sad that everything is becoming bigger but not better and so impersonal - I robot cannot see if a cow looks off colour or is lame (even though it probably can detect mastitis). 
Mind you overall, whether indoor or out, many cows get treated better than a lot of horses that are stuck in a 12x12 stable for hours on end!


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## tristar (20 February 2011)

most people agree that its good thing not to have super dairies, in an ideal world, and that we should , if possible pay a fair price for humanely reared meat and milk, to the benefit of the animals welfare, so the question is how do we go about changing things?  not an easy one to answer! from the point of view of people who go to the shops to buy food to eat?

i for one believe that most ordinairy folk are humane and would be horrified to see what some animals are subjected to , even today we probaly have kids who have no idea where milk comes from and have never been on a farm, i don't think it fair to blame joe bloggs, folk who intensively rear animals do so out of choice, they alone are responsible for their actions, no one is holding a gun to their heads.

i recently bought one of the chickens mentioned by another poster with golden coloured meat, which costs about 5 quid more, and it was delicious, the flavour and texture of the meat was shockingly unlike the normal crap and to be honest it the quantity of meat made up for the extra cost.


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