# Joint master of the Cottesmore dies



## RunToEarth (5 November 2015)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news...er-fitzwilliam-killed-hunting-accident-516269

Utterly tragic news and thoughts are with all of her family and friends. This is one of those times where people from both sides of the debate should really draw breath and spare a thought for the dangers involved with horses.


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## Christmas Crumpet (5 November 2015)

I think the main debate that is raging is that of the Patey.


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## AdorableAlice (5 November 2015)

Dreadful and shocking news, thoughts with her family.


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## RunToEarth (5 November 2015)

There is just no place for this on a condolences thread at all.


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## Christmas Crumpet (5 November 2015)

if you knew the full facts of what had happened which I do then you would understand why I said what I did. Gem's Patey came off in her fall and she died of a head injury. I am desperately sorry for what happened to her. 

However when you mentioned both sides of the debate I was simply highlighting the fact that the hunting world is currently having a major debate about the safety of wearing a Patey. This debate has come about because Gem so tragically died yesterday.


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## RunToEarth (5 November 2015)

carolineb said:



			if you knew the full facts of what had happened which I do then you would understand why I said what I did. Gem's Patey came off in her fall and she died of a head injury. I am desperately sorry for what happened to her. 

However when you mentioned both sides of the debate I was simply highlighting the fact that the hunting world is currently having a major debate about the safety of wearing a Patey. This debate has come about because Gem so tragically died yesterday.
		
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I know what happened. I know her Patey came off. I was alluding to the pro/anti debate to mourn someone's life. The Patey debate is for a different thread really.


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## Doormouse (5 November 2015)

RunToEarth said:



			I know what happened. I know her Patey came off. I was alluding to the pro/anti debate to mourn someone's life. The Patey debate is for a different thread really.
		
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Her death is tragic and my heartfelt condolences to her family and friends.

It would be lovely to think that at this moment there could be 'Christmas in no mans land' but if the antis reaction to the tragic death of Fiona Vigar a few seasons ago is anything to go by it will be just the opposite.

I didn't immediately realise this was a condolence thread and the mention of debate could easily be misconstrued as the Patey debate that will no doubt rage again as last time.

Hunting has a lost a great figure and hunting will mourn.


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## Christmas Crumpet (5 November 2015)

Ok!! I wasn't trying to say anything derogatory about what happened - it has been a very sad 24 hours with a truly loved and respected person losing their life and knowing the Cottesmore people as well as I do, I know it's going to take a long time for people to come to terms with it.


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## RunToEarth (5 November 2015)

carolineb said:



			Ok!! I wasn't trying to say anything derogatory about what happened - it has been a very sad 24 hours with a truly loved and respected person losing their life and knowing the Cottesmore people as well as I do, I know it's going to take a long time for people to come to terms with it.
		
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I know you weren't, it's awful and I think everyone is shocked. It has certainly made me think about what I wear on my head. Just awful for everyone involved.


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## stencilface (5 November 2015)

I saw this on the DM site today, and nearly posted it but knew I wouldn't be able to not mention it. RIP lady, just awful news


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## Tiddlypom (6 November 2015)

stencilface said:



			I saw this on the DM site today, and nearly posted it but knew I wouldn't be able to not mention it. RIP lady, just awful news 

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Agree, SF, I saw it on the H&H news and thought the same.

However, it would be disingenuous not to acknowledge that her choice of hat may well have made a survivable fall a fatal one.

Very sad loss, and I just hope that people learn lessons from it.


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## popsdosh (6 November 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Agree, SF, I saw it on the H&H news and thought the same.

However, it would be disingenuous not to acknowledge that her choice of hat may well have made a survivable fall a fatal one.

Very sad loss, and I just hope that people learn lessons from it.
		
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RIP Gems such a sad loss to hunting and particularly the Cottesmore.

Please dont turn this thread into a right or wrong one .Far too many assumptions are being made before all the facts are known.


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## Mariposa (6 November 2015)

Very sad when anyone is lost too young, my condolences to her family and friends.


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## Gin O'Clock (6 November 2015)

I've been thinking about the inevitable fall out [to Patey or not], and knowing Gems as I did, I don't think she was the sort of person who would want to be held up as a poster girl for safety over tradition. Clearly, this is just my own opinion but Gems stood for nothing if not hunting and all its glorious traditions.

However I personally think there should be a top down approach to changing the way safety is subordinated to tradition, when it comes to hunting. Until a consensus is formed at MFHA level, I do not believe anything will change.

Gems was a standout hunting personality and will be much missed. She was also a no nonsense girl and not one for avoiding the issue and dancing around contentious subjects in a prissy, fussy manner! So I feel no disrespect in discussing hunting's approach to safety in the same breath as paying my utmost respect to a pretty damn fine hunting friend.

Kick on up there Gems. X


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## ester (6 November 2015)

I think horse and hound facebook are poss removing comments re. the beagler situation as I am sure there were more last night - Ah found it, they have posted the same post more than once.

We had a faller on Wednesday, which was met my the surprise that at least her hat stayed on, that really shouldn't be a point for surprise these days.


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2015)

It's just very very sad but it's the risk we all embrace when we ride and we require those around us to embrace that risk as well.


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## Herne (6 November 2015)

There really is no need for further "debate" on the Patey issue. I think we're all aware of the differences by now. It's just a matter of personal choice.

Gems' accident may make some people re-evaluate their choice and change their selection of protective gear. That's fine.

Other people may decide to continue wearing what they have always worn - and that is fine, too.

What we don't need is holier-than-thou evangelists (on either side) trying to enforce their own choices on those who have decided differently...


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## Judgemental (11 November 2015)

In my judgement nobody should be allowed to ride to hounds unless they are wearing an approved CRASH HAT with a proper chin strap harness.


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## stencilface (11 November 2015)

Just imagine if eventing had stayed in the dark ages and people still wore hunting caps for that, I doubt many would still be here with us it doesn't really bear thinking about. Really hunting is more risky (I know risks are inherent with everything!  ) as there are no failsafes or medics around so the least you should do is wear a safety approved hat.  I appreciate though that little change will happen to stalwarts of hunting, but hope at least it might be safer in the future with youngsters coming through.


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## Herne (12 November 2015)

Sigh. People just can't help themselves - they just have to pontificate...

Ok, if you want to be proscriptive, then why just crash-hats and why just hunting?

To follow the logic to its full extent - and it is no longer logical if you do not do so - then no one should be allowed to carry out any equestrian activity without wearing all of the latest gear. 

Crash hats and air jackets to be compulsory from going for a hack onwards. Old-fashioned back protectors, they're out of date. Upgrade the BS standards and throw 'em away.

As soon as you start compromising on anything except the most modern, comprehensive and up-to-date gear, then it is no longer a matter of principle, it is a matter of judgement - in which case who are you to say that your judgement is better than someone else's.

And that's without even going to the fullest extent of the argument, which is of course to ban horse riding altogether - because no matter what kit people wear, it will remain an inherently dangerous activity - and if big brother is saying that people are not capable of deciding for themselves what level of risk they choose to accept, then surely they must be fully protected from their own stupidity by not being allowed on a horse at all...

If you are going to allow people to compromise their safety at all, then there is no valid reason for drawing arbitrary lines merely based upon your opinion.

To do so would be judgemental - and to be judgemental  is, as we all know, to be illogical and unreasonable...


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## popsdosh (12 November 2015)

I could hear that coming from Gems herself !!


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## stencilface (12 November 2015)

Deleted.


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## Alec Swan (12 November 2015)

Herne said:



			Sigh. People just can't help themselves - they just have to pontificate...

&#8230;&#8230;.. ...
		
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Yes quite,  they do and I wonder why!  (Further pontification!) 

I have no knowledge of the lady who sadly lost her life,  but I hope that she rests in peace and that her family are finding a route to acceptance.  

Alec.


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## Herne (13 November 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			(Further pontification!) 

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If that was addressed at me, advocating freedom of choice is the very antitheses of pontification...


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## Alec Swan (13 November 2015)

Nope,  that was me@me! 

Alec.


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## Ditchjumper2 (14 November 2015)

Choice, freedom of choice. Some will continue to wear Pateys or Honris some won't.


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## Luci07 (15 November 2015)

I never met the lady. However, everything I have read about her would suggest her to be a lady who would make up her mind. She would know the risks and chose to do so. It might make others think again and my personal choice was to hunt in a crash hat many years ago but end of the day...it was her choice...


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