# Totilas even has special shoes?!



## kyanya (28 March 2011)

I've just been looking at the photos of Totilas and Matthias 'at home' - I've never seen shoes like those ones!

Can someone please enlighten me about what they are, and what they're for?

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/gall...amous-horses/totilasathome/Totilas15.jpg.html


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## eggs (28 March 2011)

looks like the eggbar shoes my horse had after he had been diagnosed with navicular


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## ThePony (28 March 2011)

They look like a kind of heart bar shoes - not v unusual to see them used on flat footed horses as a way of mimicing the frog pressure and heel support that an unshod foot would get.


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## Kokopelli (28 March 2011)

They help support the frog, no idea why he has them but could be something to do with the exaggeration of his foreleg movement, or he has flat feet.


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## feisty_filly (28 March 2011)

heart bar shoes


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## Snowysadude (28 March 2011)

They look like heart bar shoes, my flat footed horse wore them to support his feet as his heels looked like they would collapse. He had them for a few months and is now in eggbar shoes (have like a mini dip on them)


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## tallyho! (28 March 2011)

And he's booted behind if you notice.

Well I never, Totilas has contracted heels.


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## stroppy (28 March 2011)

tallyho! said:



			And he's booted behind if you notice.

Well I never, Totilas has contracted heels.
		
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so what if he is booted, all round actually not just behind, prevention is better than cure!!


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## Spudlet (28 March 2011)

Special shoes, a solarium - but apparently no field

And yes, I know that's probably not unusual for these 'top' horses - doesn't make it any less sad IMO. No horse should be too valuable to allow it time to be outside, being a horse.


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## Nailed (28 March 2011)

humm..... and people want to breed from him yet hes in heart bars.. hes off my list of top stallions.. lol


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## stroppy (28 March 2011)

Some horses hate being out , Spudlet would you insist on turning out horse that simple does not want to be out and jumps in when ever put in a field!!  you say its cruel to not turn out , I say its to bloody risky to put any horse out full stop


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## Spudlet (28 March 2011)

Of all the horses I have known (and we're into triple figures these days) the vast majority have been happy to be out. This has included abused horses that spent literally years locked into stables. Yes, there are some horses that prefer to be in, but they are few and far between. And I suspect most of them are simply institutionalised - in fact, I'd go so far as to say mentally ill in some cases.

Too risky? Life is risky. We would all live a lot longer if we sat indoors all day and never took a risk, but what kind of life would that be? I would rather see a horse out in a field, booted up if you will, but better that than locked away in a little box, no matter how luxurious that little box might be.


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## Nailed (28 March 2011)

i think your a bit disalusioned stroppy if im honest... it might be risky.. but if you dont want to take risks then take up knitting.. watch those nasty needles tho.. they might prick you. =oP

Horses are ment to be out, they are grazing animals.. ok some dont want to be.. but not giving hem the opportunity is wrong..

I worked for a women who owned and rode alot of grand prix horses, and they all had turn out.. ok so she risked them picking up an injury.. but if im honest, they were a hell of a lot more relaxed in them selfs.. and less likly to try and throw them selves round the stable.

Lou x


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## CalllyH (28 March 2011)

Is it me or does he look a bit lack lustre?


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## stroppy (28 March 2011)

Spudlet Like I have said before, horses have a job and nothing should be put in the way of that, so turning out where they can be injured is a big NO , my horses and the other I know, 4 of them on one yard so not few and far between as you say are not remotely institutionalised or mentally ill, you speak as if you are the font of all knowledge yet most of your views are just ignorant.


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## Spudlet (28 March 2011)

OK love.... Oh, doesn't Carl Hester hack, and turn his horses out? Still, he's fairly ignorant, silly man. What does he know, hey?


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## SuperCoblet (28 March 2011)

stroppy said:



			Spudlet Like I have said before, horses have a job and nothing should be put in the way of that, so turning out where they can be injured is a big NO , my horses and the other I know, 4 of them on one yard so not few and far between as you say are not remotely institutionalised or mentally ill, you speak as if you are the font of all knowledge yet most of your views are just ignorant.
		
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Surely the horses well-being and welfare is more important than it's job? I would never keep a horse in 24/7 unless it's on box rest or individual needs. Horses are wild grazing animals who need too be outside and being a horse, especially in the summer!


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## nikkimariet (28 March 2011)

GypsyTheCob said:



			Surely the horses well-being and welfare is more important than it's job? I would never keep a horse in 24/7 unless it's on box rest or individual needs. Horses are *wild* grazing animals who need too be outside and being a horse, especially in the summer!
		
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Disagree. 100%.

I imagine you are a pleasure rider/amateur competitor - as am I. Yours, and mine horse(s) are worth about 10% of what a horse like Toto is. The risk of injury is too great in relation to what is required of him. Edward Gal reported that when turned out Toto went absolutely beserk therefore heightening the likelihood of injury. Toto has enough variety in his work to keep his body and mind active - he does not act or look like a horse that is mentally ill and whose welfare has been compromised. 

No. You wouldn't ever keep a horse on box rest unnecessarily, because it is your pet. Toto is a money maker, not somebodys precious little boy who can go and do whatever he wants. I actually agree that horses should be turned out as much as possible, but if my income and my career was dependent upon the ability of a horse like Toto - I assure you I wouldn't be turning it out in a field like a regular horse.

And for the record, we owned a TB cross pony, who hated being outside and was waiting at the gate to be brought in within the hour. You cannot generalize the demands and wants of an entire species and depict what is right or wrong.

Also, would you honestly say that your horse is a 'wild grazing animal'?? Isn't he your pet....or did you buy him, shove him in a field and leave him there to be a 'wild grazing animal'?....


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## Natch (28 March 2011)

Spudlet said:



			Special shoes, a solarium - but apparently no field

And yes, I know that's probably not unusual for these 'top' horses - doesn't make it any less sad IMO. No horse should be too valuable to allow it time to be outside, being a horse.
		
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Completely agree



stroppy said:



			Some horses hate being out , Spudlet would you insist on turning out horse that simple does not want to be out and jumps in when ever put in a field!!  you say its cruel to not turn out , I say its to bloody risky to put any horse out full stop
		
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I would question why the horse is jumping out, and not put it down to a simple "he prefers to be in".



stroppy said:



			Spudlet Like I have said before, horses have a job and nothing should be put in the way of that, so turning out where they can be injured is a big NO , my horses and the other I know, 4 of them on one yard so not few and far between as you say are not remotely institutionalised or mentally ill, you speak as if you are the font of all knowledge yet most of your views are just ignorant.
		
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Whose views are ignorant now? Are you trolling or are you actually serious?

Nothing should be put in the way of a horse's job. Not mental health, not physical health, oh no sir, not a darn thing.  



nikkimariet said:



			I actually agree that horses should be turned out as much as possible, but if my income and my career was dependent upon the ability of a horse like Toto - I assure you I wouldn't be turning it out in a field like a regular horse.
		
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Put bluntly, that's what insurance is for. 

I don't care what level the horse is competing at and what they are worth - I think turnout is a pretty basic right every horse should have, and time spent int he stable should be kept to as little as is feasible.


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## YorksG (28 March 2011)

There is also the issue of horses being herd animals, how can this need possibly be met if the animal is kept in a 12x12 box except when ridden. I also question what happens to the animal when it retires. This is not an earning machine, it is an animal, with the needs of an animal. If the only way that the connections can make money out of it is by keeping it in isolation then perhaps they should invest in racing bikes or cars instead.


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## hadfos (29 March 2011)

YorksG said:



			There is also the issue of horses being herd animals, how can this need possibly be met if the animal is kept in a 12x12 box except when ridden. I also question what happens to the animal when it retires. This is not an earning machine, it is an animal, with the needs of an animal. If the only way that the connections can make money out of it is by keeping it in isolation then perhaps they should invest in racing bikes or cars instead.
		
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Totally echo you YorksG!!!
They may well be worth hundreds of thousands,but they are horses at the end of the day and deserve the freedom a horse should get!Many top dressage riders allow their horses to live out,good for their mind!


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## LizzyandToddy (29 March 2011)

You can argue what you like. 

Is the horse in pain? No.
Is the horse happy? Yes.
Does he love his work? Yes.
Does he look well? Yes.

I am not one for keeping a horse in any longer than necessary. But I fail to see a problem with an owners decision if it is not affecting the welfare of a horse physically or mentally. He is obviously not being mentally affected by being kept in.

No I don't agree with it. I just don't think its peoples place to judge.


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## hadfos (29 March 2011)

LizzyandToddy said:



			You can argue what you like. 

Is the horse in pain? No.
Is the horse happy? Yes.
Does he love his work? Yes.
Does he look well? Yes.

I am not one for keeping a horse in any longer than necessary. But I fail to see a problem with an owners decision if it is not affecting the welfare of a horse physically or mentally. He is obviously not being mentally affected by being kept in.

No I don't agree with it. I just don't think its peoples place to judge.
		
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We all have our opinions,as I stated mine above!BUT....None of us actually know the horses state of mind do we,yes he may well love his work,but it is possibly his enthusiasm just to be out of his box that makes him as expressive as he is??Has anybody here actually met him,and seen his attitude toward his stabled life?No I doubt it!??


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## SusieT (29 March 2011)

How are you judging this horse to not be mentally affected? He will naturally look enthusiastic when out of his stable as it is a break from confinement.. 
 It is fact that horses are designed to be moving herd animals. Not kept in a concrete stable with no window (this I find adds to the solitary confinement), for 22/23 hours a day. Able to see one other horse.
It is money making, pure and simple. And by owning an animal to have a responsibility to it to ensure you meet its needs as far as possible. Morally and legally. These people are making no effort. A window and a small turnout paddock would go a long way. If a horse injures itself in a paddock less than the size of an outdoor school it was going to injure itself anyway.
It is becoming less the norm thankfully, and most horse sjumping/calling ot get back in have been 'trained' by special food if they reach their stable.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

LizzyandToddy said:



			You can argue what you like. 

Is the horse in pain? No.
Is the horse happy? Yes.
Does he love his work? Yes.
Does he look well? Yes.

I am not one for keeping a horse in any longer than necessary. But I fail to see a problem with an owners decision if it is not affecting the welfare of a horse physically or mentally. He is obviously not being mentally affected by being kept in.

No I don't agree with it. I just don't think its peoples place to judge.
		
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Agree with all of this.

SusieT - I am well aware of what insurance is for since my dad owns an insurance company, thanks.

http://www.dressage-news.com/?p=4538 

That much money? Weigh it up against the risk.... Even if insurance does cover an accident, any injury to top horses like this would be a major loss to the competing world.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

hadfos said:



			We all have our opinions,as I stated mine above!BUT....None of us actually know the horses state of mind do we,yes he may well love his work,but it is possibly his enthusiasm just to be out of his box that makes him as expressive as he is??Has anybody here actually met him,and seen his attitude toward his stabled life?No I doubt it!??
		
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And have *you* met him and seen his attitude towards his stabled life? No. I doubt it.



SusieT said:



			It is fact that horses are designed to be moving herd animals. Not kept in a concrete stable with no window (this I find adds to the solitary confinement), for 22/23 hours a day. Able to see one other horse.
		
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Toto gets taken out his stable a number of times a day for hand grazing, or he did with EG not sure what it's like with MR. He is not in solitary confinement in a darkened box and in a situation where he only sees the light of day when he is brought out to work - and quite a few of you are acting like he is.


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## millitiger (29 March 2011)

I thought they had tried turning him out and he panicked and couldn't be left in the field?

Regardless of what has made him like that, to turn him out now would be cruel.


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## DragonSlayer (29 March 2011)

All my horses are out, 24/7.....I would NEVER have them in unless there is a real need to, eg - injury and vet says.....etc etc.....

Personally, I think it's cruel to keep a horse in ALL THE TIME.......what about just hanging out with other horses, whether it's stood next to the one in the next paddock....?

What about being able to run and jump about, kicking it's heels in the air?

What about having a roll, and laying in the sun?

What about it's natural way of 'foraging' about to find food?

Look at chickens, all they want to do is scratch and peck about, flapping their wings out sometimes. Stuck in a battery cage, they have no hope.

A horse in the stable 24/7 surely is like the battery hen, in a similar way.

I don't care HOW well-looked after it is, you are removing at least SOME of the natural ways the horse lives.

Don't care how much it's worth either, I guess it comes down to the usual thing, MONEY.


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## quirky (29 March 2011)

What struck me is that he is in boots in every picture that shows his legs.

Surely a horse that is capable of such dressage movements should be able to manage an in hand walk without striking himself.

I just can't imagine living in my socks day in day out .


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## letrec_fan (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			Agree with all of this.

SusieT - I am well aware of what insurance is for since my dad owns an insurance company, thanks.

http://www.dressage-news.com/?p=4538 

That much money? Weigh it up against the risk.... Even if insurance does cover an accident, any injury to top horses like this would be a major loss to the competing world.
		
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A major loss to the competing world? What a shame - sorry but a horses welfare should always be paramount to our gains. The risk should never be too great to provide a horse with basic needs, such as turnout.


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## Tinypony (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			Disagree. 100%.

I imagine you are a pleasure rider/amateur competitor - as am I. Yours, and mine horse(s) are worth about 10% of what a horse like Toto is. The risk of injury is too great in relation to what is required of him. Edward Gal reported that when turned out Toto went absolutely beserk therefore heightening the likelihood of injury. Toto has enough variety in his work to keep his body and mind active - he does not act or look like a horse that is mentally ill and whose welfare has been compromised. 

No. You wouldn't ever keep a horse on box rest unnecessarily, because it is your pet. Toto is a money maker, not somebodys precious little boy who can go and do whatever he wants. I actually agree that horses should be turned out as much as possible, but if my income and my career was dependent upon the ability of a horse like Toto - I assure you I wouldn't be turning it out in a field like a regular horse.

And for the record, we owned a TB cross pony, who hated being outside and was waiting at the gate to be brought in within the hour. You cannot generalize the demands and wants of an entire species and depict what is right or wrong.

Also, would you honestly say that your horse is a 'wild grazing animal'?? Isn't he your pet....or did you buy him, shove him in a field and leave him there to be a 'wild grazing animal'?....
		
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Once a horse has been kept in for much of it's life you will obviously have trouble turning it out and yes, it probably will go "beserk".  Surely that's just common sense?  It doesn't mean it was right to keep them stabled in the first place, but the damage has been done.  Moving to our more sympathetically kept horses and ponies, the ones that "want to be in".  If you were to be motivated to get some good behaviour input then there are very few horses that woudn't stop wanting to come in if a few changes were made.  (I'm not saying ALL before people jump in and say "Oh, but MY horse....", but really it is very few).

I can understand why someone might say that they wouldn't breed from a horse in heart bar shoes.  How do you know if the reason he is wearing the shoes is down to nature or nurture?  I have a horse that I have always accepted to have "wierd" feet, and farriers and trimmers have told me that it's just something we have to live with.  Until recently when I met a truly skilled trimmer who said "boll**ks!" and has already made a huge improvement in the shape and way of going.  So Totillas might have had lovely feet if they'd been cared for differently.  I suspect that my horse's problems go back to when he was a valuable colt foal and stabled in a barn for much of his young life.

It is such a shame that horses will continue to be kept in conditions that are not optimal for their mental wellbeing juste because we humans put a price on their heads, but that's not going to change.

As for horses being happy with their stabled lives, and "loving" their work, I do sometimes wonder how that is judged.  Certainly, from watching Totillas's ridden videos, I wouldn't have a clue if he loves his work or not.  He has no choice about it.


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## Weezy (29 March 2011)

Sure, horses are feral animals who live in the wild, blah, blah, blah....well, that is only true to a point, natives, etc certainly, but WBs are man made horses, born in captivity, raised in captivity, brought up to utterly depend on humans.  To turn horses away/out that have had this level of human interaction for the whole of their lives could be argued cruel.  Some of them just do not take to the open space, they are almost agoraphobic, so we, as humans and their creators have a duty of care to ensure they are the happiest they can be.

Is it right?  Is it wrong?  There are arguments for both, of course, but welfare is of the utmost importance, and man made horses cannot be compared to natives.


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## FlashHarry (29 March 2011)

I believe it is wrong to keep an animal permanently stabled. I also believe that it gives equestrian sport a bad name and could lead to animal rights campaigners getting equestrian sports dropped from the olympics. Some of these top competitors would only have themselves to blame.


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## Tinypony (29 March 2011)

I don't agree that our horses are feral animals, they are domesticated.  Just as we care about giving zoo animals the best environment we can and the company of their own kind, my personal opinion is that we should do the same for horses.
The agoraphobic horse I was given had that problem because of the way he had been kept.  I cannot even begin to relate how he first hid under a hedge to afraid to go to water or food (I fed him by hand for 2 weeks), then crabbed along fences when he emerged, or how many fences he ran through...   However, he's living happily in a field with his girls these days. He didn't start off with a fear of open spaces (and enclosed spaces as well as it happens, he was very sad), he got that way because people made him that way.


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## amandap (29 March 2011)

Tinypony said:



			It is such a shame that horses will continue to be kept in conditions that are not optimal for their mental wellbeing juste because we humans put a price on their heads, but that's not going to change.

As for horses being happy with their stabled lives, and "loving" their work, I do sometimes wonder how that is judged.  Certainly, from watching Totillas's ridden videos, I wouldn't have a clue if he loves his work or not.  He has no choice about it.
		
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Very good points imo. 

Wrapping horses up in cotton wool is imo not in their best interests. I'm no professional and have no experience of the world of competition but I do see many practices that are unnatural for horses but that suit human's and human's ideas of what is best. 

Horses are creatures of open spaces not caves.


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## Spudlet (29 March 2011)

It's true that some competition horses are raised and kept in such a way that damages them - but this is not something to aspire to. The top-end of the competition world should be setting the example for everyone else to follow - but in this instance they do not. The fact that some competition horses are kept in such a way that leaves them unable to express the most basic normal behaviour (and let's not forget, the freedom to express normal behaviour is a legal requirement in the UK) is not something to be proud of.

Horses should be more than simply a vehicle for human vanity.


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## AshTay (29 March 2011)

There was a feature on him in Your Horse a few months back and it said he wasn't allowed to roll as he was too valuable.

I think we just need to accept that there are some people who will put the horse first at the expense of the sport and some people who will put the sport first at the expense of the horse. We'll never all agree and it's reassuring to see there are more of the former than of the latter on this forum.


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## Amymay (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			I actually agree that horses should be turned out as much as possible, but if my income and my career was dependent upon the ability of a horse like Toto - I assure you I wouldn't be turning it out in a field like a regular horse.....
		
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Lord, I have never read so much tosh in all my life.

All the pro riders I know turn they horses out.  And guess what - just like old Helen happy hackers horses, they don't injure themselves.  Amazing that.  And quite possibly due to the fact that going is out is the norm - not the exception, so they don't explode everytime they are turned out.


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## Amymay (29 March 2011)

millitiger said:



			I thought they had tried turning him out and he panicked and couldn't be left in the field?

Regardless of what has made him like that, to turn him out now would be cruel.
		
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I'm sure you're right.  My friends dressage mare couldn't be turned out for a long, long time when she first brought her over from Germany.  Once she'd been broken in - she was never turned out again.  She was slowly reintroduced to the concept over a couple of months - and is now fine.

But it's true to say that once these highly bred horses are brought in for breaking - that's the end of herd turnout (which most of them will have had up until then 24/7).


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## FleabittenT (29 March 2011)

Just to ponder another major welfare question 

Is it just me or do his noseband & browband look like they're from two totally different bridles?

Chunky noseband, fine little browband. Thought the same when I saw it on HHO cover this week. I don't get it...


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## amandap (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			I actually agree that horses should be turned out as much as possible, but if my income and my career was dependent upon the ability of a horse like Toto - I assure you I wouldn't be turning it out in a field like a regular horse.
		
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This says it all to me sadly.  Money and us(humans)  put before the wellbeing of another creature...
What's even more sad is in this instance it's done in the name of 'entertainment'.


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## Seahorse (29 March 2011)

I'm sure when EG had him he said he has been turned out before and just gallops and gallops so they stopped putting him out.

He gets walked out in hand several times a day, although it's not the same.
Not many GP horses get turned out at all anyway, sad as it is.

My ex employer did start putting her GP horse out in the field for a few hours a day, but I literally had to sit and watch him and if he showed any signs of moving I had to run and get him in. Although the more he went out the more settled he was to the point where he could be out most of the day.
Funnily enough she had her best season ever then!


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## charlie76 (29 March 2011)

That horse knows no different, he would never have been turned out. The article states that the horse comes out of his stable at least twice a day to work or be hand grazed, I imagine in between that he is being groomed, solarium, massage, covering mares etc. Not a bad life to be honest. 
Stallions cannot live out in a herd- can you imagine the carnage!
I don't think he looks unhappy or lack lustre, he is not as fat as he was but then that will be due him covering mares and in full competitive work.
My own horse has now been in for 12 weeks( due to injury which is now recovered but he still not allowed out) He is lunged in the morning, ridden at mid day and hand grazed in the evening. He is more than happy. 
Horses like routine, if there routine is what they are used to then this is what they live by.

If people want all horses to live like wild horses I would suggest they stop riding them and let them wander free on the moors!


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## amandap (29 March 2011)

charlie76 said:



			That horse knows no different, he would never have been turned out. The article states that the horse comes out of his stable at least twice a day to work or be hand grazed, I imagine in between that he is being groomed, solarium, massage, covering mares etc. Not a bad life to be honest.
		
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For a human maybe.  Perhaps we should put human athletes in solitary confinement and allow them out twice a day and pamper them in solariums etc? Look at the outrage years ago about the Russian gymnasts...
At least Totilas gets a chance to make vitamin D in the solarium... 


charlie76 said:



			If people want all horses to live like wild horses I would suggest they stop riding them and let them wander free on the moors!
		
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 Why does it have to be one or the other? Keeping horses in domesticity is always going to be a compromise but surely we have the brain and ingenuity to provide management closer to what horses have evolved for?


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## AshTay (29 March 2011)

charlie76 said:



			That horse knows no different, he would never have been turned out. The article states that the horse comes out of his stable at least twice a day to work or be hand grazed, I imagine in between that he is being groomed, solarium, massage, covering mares etc. Not a bad life to be honest. 
Stallions cannot live out in a herd- can you imagine the carnage!
I don't think he looks unhappy or lack lustre, he is not as fat as he was but then that will be due him covering mares and in full competitive work.
My own horse has now been in for 12 weeks( due to injury which is now recovered but he still not allowed out) He is lunged in the morning, ridden at mid day and hand grazed in the evening. He is more than happy. 
Horses like routine, if there routine is what they are used to then this is what they live by.

If people want all horses to live like wild horses I would suggest they stop riding them and let them wander free on the moors!
		
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Agree that if he knows no different then he probably isn't too unhappy but it doesn't make it ok.

I know of a stallion that isn't turned out because he stresses as he has never been allowed out in the past and is now in his teens. Doesn't make it ok but it's not the fault of his current owner (all other stallions she owns are turned out for a few hours each day).

My problem is with horses not being turned out because of the risk of injury and potential financial implications. That's just not right. As someone said - that's what insurance is for!!!


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## AshTay (29 March 2011)

amandap said:



 Why does it have to be one or the other? Keeping horses in domesticity is always going to be a compromise but surely we have the brain and ingenuity to provide management closer to what horses have evolved for? 

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^^^ This!!!


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## Amymay (29 March 2011)

charlie76 said:



			That horse knows no different, he would never have been turned out.
		
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Actually Charlie, that's not strictly true.  He will have been out in a broodmare herd until weaned.  Then a bachelor group until brought in to be broken in.

So whilst a dim and distant memory - certainly he will have known considerable freedom for the first few years of his life.


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## Spudlet (29 March 2011)

Since when did saying horses tend to enjoy having some field time equate to becoming a crusty save the ponios type? I'm not one of those, I shave my pits regularly


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## Amaranta (29 March 2011)

FleabittenT said:



			Just to ponder another major welfare question 

Is it just me or do his noseband & browband look like they're from two totally different bridles?

Chunky noseband, fine little browband. Thought the same when I saw it on HHO cover this week. I don't get it...
		
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Fail to see why this is a major welfare issue 

On the subject of turnout, many top dressage riders do turn out, many also do not.  There is a huge amount of money involved here and, sadly, once money takes over, the interests of the horses lose out.  However, I will say that they are not left in a darkened box all day, their days are filled with work on the horsewalker and in the school - I don't personally think it is what is best for the horse but there are much much bigger welfare issues to get your knickers in a twist about.


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## Amymay (29 March 2011)

but there are much much bigger welfare issues to get your knickers in a twist about.
		
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I don't think posters are getting theyre knickers in a twist - merely discussing the reasons why a valuable horse does not deserve turnout.........


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## amandap (29 March 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Fail to see why this is a major welfare issue 

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Me neither... non matching tack is a totally human 'evil', I'm sure horses don't care. 
My only question on the noseband is, is it a crank noseband?


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## Spudlet (29 March 2011)

I believe it is indicative of a wider attitude towards horses that I personally find distasteful. It also concerns me that some people may see this as something to aspire to, and that if the 'top' people are doing it, that must make it ok.

I am fully aware of some of the larger welfare issues that afflict horses, both here in the UK and abroad, and take action upon these. I can assure you that my underwear is in excellent working order. However, the fact that there are 'bigger' issues doesn't mean that the smaller issues are unimportant or not worth discussing.


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## Amaranta (29 March 2011)

Spudlet said:



			I believe it is indicative of a wider attitude towards horses that I personally find distasteful. It also concerns me that some people may see this as something to aspire to, and that if the 'top' people are doing it, that must make it ok.

I am fully aware of some of the larger welfare issues that afflict horses, both here in the UK and abroad, and take action upon these. I can assure you that my underwear is in excellent working order. However, the fact that there are 'bigger' issues doesn't mean that the smaller issues are unimportant or not worth discussing.
		
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Oh don't get me wrong, I agree, I also agree that horses need turnout.  It was just that a couple of the posts on the previous page were a little personal, funnily enough they were directed at you!


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## amandap (29 March 2011)

Spudlet said:



			I believe it is indicative of a wider attitude towards horses that I personally find distasteful. It also concerns me that some people may see this as something to aspire to, and that if the 'top' people are doing it, that must make it ok.

I am fully aware of some of the larger welfare issues that afflict horses, both here in the UK and abroad, and take action upon these. I can assure you that my underwear is in excellent working order. However, the fact that there are 'bigger' issues doesn't mean that the smaller issues are unimportant or not worth discussing.
		
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I agree. 

I don't see non matching tack as an issue myself but I do think management of horses is a very big issue for the horses that gets overlooked and as you say, aspired to and judged as 'must be ok', because people are top professionals...


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## Spudlet (29 March 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Oh don't get me wrong, I agree, I also agree that horses need turnout.  It was just that a couple of the posts on the previous page were a little personal, funnily enough they were directed at you!
		
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Mehh, no worries about that, got broad shoulders and all that . People have strong opinions and they get het up about these things. Maybe it touches a nerve for some people too?


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## TallyHo123 (29 March 2011)

Spudlet said:



			Special shoes, a solarium - but apparently no field

And yes, I know that's probably not unusual for these 'top' horses - doesn't make it any less sad IMO. No horse should be too valuable to allow it time to be outside, being a horse.
		
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I agree with this totally.


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## amandaco2 (29 March 2011)

heart bars.
OR boots on all fours isnt unusual in a dressage horse of such high value


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## FrodoBeutlin (29 March 2011)

The photos are interesting as he definitely did not have heart bar shoes when he was in Holland, he had normal shoes then.

Re. the turnout comments, it's been done a million times, it's like the hat/no hat debate -- we have to accept that most top dressage horses are not turned out, full stop.. People like Carl Hester are the exception rather than the rule.


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## Natch (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			That much money? Weigh it up against the risk.... Even if insurance does cover an accident, any injury to top horses like this would be a major loss to the competing world.
		
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Its sad that it comes down to that. I also believe this is an unfounded belief; how many times do we hear about one of Carl Hester's top rides having to be retired or PTS due to an injury out hacking or in the field?

Totilas could get cast in his stable, or caught up in tack, or spook, trip and fall when ridden... you'll never eliminate accidents. It just comes down to weighing up risk vs welfare - and to me turnout is not too high a risk to compromise welfare so much.



millitiger said:



			I thought they had tried turning him out and he panicked and couldn't be left in the field?

Regardless of what has made him like that, to turn him out now would be cruel.
		
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Ask the thoroughbred racehorse rehabilitation centre(s). I was very impressed when I visited to see they had everything between stable and field, and spent a lot of time rehabing horses who initially find turnout too stressful.



Tinypony said:



			Once a horse has been kept in for much of it's life you will obviously have trouble turning it out and yes, it probably will go "beserk".  Surely that's just common sense?
		
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Voice of reason



Weezy said:



			Is it right?  Is it wrong?  There are arguments for both, of course, but welfare is of the utmost importance, and man made horses cannot be compared to natives.
		
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Whilst they obviously are highly bred to our specifications, they are still the same species, and in evolutionary terms the difference in breeding is so small as to be almost irrelevant. The evolution of the horse to live on the plains and be a grazing animal dates back to 18m years ago. we may have bred different coats, movement, temperament, but I don't believe that selective breeding in a comparably short time frame can compete with the evolutionary need to be out.


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## Nocturnal (29 March 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Fail to see why this is a major welfare issue 

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Wow, serious sense of humour failure there! 

I notice there's no praise forthcoming for Rath wearing a hat, everyone too busy finding something else to complain about?


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## Damnation (29 March 2011)

I have to say its nice to see a top rider riding in a hard hat at home.

IMO Toto gets alot of hard work, he is a top competition stallion who needs to be fit, and uninjured.

I used to ride a dressage stallion who in the peak of his career was not turned out for several years because he would pace the fence so much he would lame himself. He was completely fine with this. If they have the workload then who are we to judge?


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

All of you saying is he kept in a darkened box 24/7; please give me your sources. I am in awe, as you seem to know every single aspect of Totos care....

If Toto wasn't happy in his work - he would make it known.

Christ, if half the people on this thread got their hands on poor abused little Toto you'd stick him in a field and watch him being pretty and prancing about...............until it broke its leg................... 

Naturally - speaking from personal experience of owning horses; 99% of the accidents ours have had have taken place in the field.

A turnout and a hat argument in all of one week? I'm bored now.


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## Flame_ (29 March 2011)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			Re. the turnout comments, it's been done a million times, it's like the hat/no hat debate -- we have to accept that most top dressage horses are not turned out, full stop..
		
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No, we do not have to accept it anymore than we have to accept other welfare issues. Sometimes kicking up a bit of a stink about issues like this are the beginnings of getting them changed. 

I think it is a matter of time before it is completely unacceptable not to allow horses any access to the freedom of turnout. After all it used to be acceptable to keep wild animals in less than stable sized cages. Things change when enough people make enough noise about what is not acceptable, and I believe this will be one of them.


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## mcnaughty (29 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Wow, serious sense of humour failure there! 



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LOL - absolutely.

Someone back there somewhere said that domesticated horses do not know anything better (or similar).  Go and stick your head in a 'domesticated' or zoo tiger's mouth - here kitty kitty.... and see what happens.  You MIGHT be lucky...

Horses across the world are horses (wild, semi domesticated and domesticated) - however, big, small, old, young or expensive!  They all 'tick' mentally and physically in the same way and you can never and will never be able to breed their basic instincts out of them.

I feel that some posters on here might be turning into trolls...


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## Brambridge04 (29 March 2011)

amandap said:



			For a human maybe.  Perhaps we should put human athletes in solitary confinement and allow them out twice a day and pamper them in solariums etc? Look at the outrage years ago about the Russian gymnasts...
At least Totilas gets a chance to make vitamin D in the solarium... 

Yes but a human with his "bits" intact isnt going to run around like a lunatic at the prospect of a woman.
		
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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

Flame_ said:



			No, we do not have to accept it anymore than we have to accept other welfare issues. Sometimes kicking up a bit of a stink about issues like this are the beginnings of getting them changed. 

I think it is a matter of time before it is completely unacceptable not to allow horses any access to the freedom of turnout. After all it used to be acceptable to keep wild animals in less than stable sized cages. Things change when enough people make enough noise about what is not acceptable, and I believe this will be one of them.
		
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Really? You believe arguing with other members on here....is going to change the professional equine competing sphere....on a global scale?? Not putting a horse on turnout is not against the law - you'd have to be INSANE to actually believe they are mistreating Totilas.


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## feisty_filly (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			All of you saying is he kept in a darkened box 24/7; please give me your sources. I am in awe, as you seem to know every single aspect of Totos care....

If Toto wasn't happy in his work - he would make it known.

Christ, if half the people on this thread got their hands on poor abused little Toto you'd stick him in a field and watch him being pretty and prancing about...............until it broke its leg................... 

Naturally - speaking from personal experience of owning horses; 99% of the accidents ours have had have taken place in the field.

A turnout and a hat argument in all of one week? I'm bored now.
		
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i agree, also i dont understand how all this has anything to do with OPs question? they were only asking about the shoes!


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## Nocturnal (29 March 2011)

Brambridge04 said:



			Yes but a human with his "bits" intact isnt going to run around like a lunatic at the prospect of a woman.
		
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Ah, you've led a sheltered life, my dear!


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## Natch (29 March 2011)

Brambridge04 said:



			Yes but a human with his "bits" intact isnt going to run around like a lunatic at the prospect of a woman.
		
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I dunno...


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## Brambridge04 (29 March 2011)

Ahahaha....well ok most men then! x


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## amandap (29 March 2011)

Brambridge04 said:





amandap said:



			For a human maybe.  Perhaps we should put human athletes in solitary confinement and allow them out twice a day and pamper them in solariums etc? Look at the outrage years ago about the Russian gymnasts...
At least Totilas gets a chance to make vitamin D in the solarium... 

Yes but a human with his "bits" intact isnt going to run around like a lunatic at the prospect of a woman.
		
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Lol, some might well.  

I think it is important to discuss all aspects of horsemanship and I'm not of the opinion that we don't have a right to question things no matter who or what it is.  
These people may well feel someone like me has no right to comment and others may feel there is no point because it wont make a difference... I don't feel that way and especially when a horse or other animal (I include other humans here) can be so easily controlled by us. I think we have a duty to question once we assume responsibility for another beings care and life.
		
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## Spudlet (29 March 2011)

If one person competing at _any_ level reads this thread and decides that perhaps they can manage to both compete and turnout, that's a good result in my opinion.

It's a discussion forum, so we... discuss. If people would prefer a top-rider-unquestioning-adoration-at-all-times forum, perhaps one could be set up?


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## AshTay (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			Christ, if half the people on this thread got their hands on poor abused little Toto you'd stick him in a field and watch him being pretty and prancing about...............until it broke its leg................... 

Naturally - speaking from personal experience of owning horses; 99% of the accidents ours have had have taken place in the field.
		
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It????

My horse trashed his tendon bombing about in a field and is now retired. But equally he survived 21 years of bombing about in fields without damaging anything so.....

It's actually quite insulting that you think "half" the people on this thread would just turn him out and throw caution to the wind. We're not that stupid. No one is suggesting we start some sort of "Free Totilas" movement. What people want to see is a change in attitude that results in horses being allowed to be horses even if they happen to be, through no choice of their own, expensive "assets" to the sport.


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## jessamess (29 March 2011)

Naturally said:



			Whilst they obviously are highly bred to our specifications, they are still the same species, and in evolutionary terms the difference in breeding is so small as to be almost irrelevant. The evolution of the horse to live on the plains and be a grazing animal dates back to 18m years ago. we may have bred different coats, movement, temperament, but I don't believe that selective breeding in a comparably short time frame can compete with the evolutionary need to be out.
		
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But what about dogs, cats, rabbits, guinea pigs, birds the list is endless of the amount of animals we have domesticated and taken out of their natural environments!!! Dogs are pack animals many people keep a single dog, and shut it inside the kitchen/cage 9-5 while they are at work! Some cats aren't even allowed out side, where they can act naturally instead they are shut inside house, rabbits are naturally out on massive plains grazing and down holes, instead we shut them in tiny wooden boxes- oh I forget occasionally letting them out into tiny mesh cages where they can have a taste is grass for an hour or so before being shut back in a tiny wooden box usually alone!!! Parrots/birds are another example in the wild they have the skies to fly round and play and be with their species but instead we lock them in tiny metal cages alone, with nothing more to do than just sit their....  And why is this just for our own personal entertainment 

Horses in my eyes get a wonderful life compared to some of our 'lesser earning' pets. We treat them like kings and love them like our own, and we can ride them and compete and have fantastic relationships with them... 

Come on Totilas is kept like royalty and I'm sure with all the lovely top of the range hay/haylage, feeds, work, tack, mares, riders and other fantastic wonders I'm sure he's not really to worried... I think people need to realise that horses ARE about all about money in the real world, most of the people sitting here moaning about a horse not being in the wild have a horse out in their back garden/at a livery yard THEY PAID MONEY FOR!!! 

Totilas is a healthy and clearly happy horse, yes he might not have the 'freedom' as some amateur own horses, but then he is not a 'normal' horse in the slightest!!! He leads a pretty good life if I'm honest I certainly wouldn't complain!!! having millions spent on him people wooing over him!!!

People need to sit back and look at the bigger picture you are all moaning and picking holes at one of the best horses in the world and how he's looked after, when you could be out there giving your attention to all the horses that have been abandoned and left to starve


xxxx


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## Seahorse (29 March 2011)

I've already posted about my employer turning out her Grand Prix dressage horse, he wasn't the top horse in the world but she had been to the Olympics so she knew her stuff!


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## AshTay (29 March 2011)

jessamess said:



			People need to sit back and look at the bigger picture you are all moaning and picking holes at one of the best horses in the world and how he's looked after, when you could be out there giving your attention to all the horses that have been abandoned and left to starve


xxxx
		
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All true but my issue with it is that the owners of these horses can afford to provide the best care possible and it is in pretty much every aspect other than turnout. Which they can also do....they can afford to set up a stallion paddock where horses like Totilas could spend a few hours outside each day. The reason they don't allow it isn't because they can't afford it or because it's not in his best interests but because he's too valuable and it's in THEIR best interests to keep him wrapped in cotton wool (and because keeping him cooped up probably results in him being more expressive when he does get out so...).

I totally agree with you on the issue of other pets. That's also wrong in my eyes.


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## Nocturnal (29 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			It????
		
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Problem?

I know people with horses that *won't* turn out, regardless of their owners efforts. I think its downright silly to suggest that all horses have to be treated in the same way. My horse would be perfectly happy on the regime Totilas is on. He prefers being turned out (if its with other horses), so that's what I do, but its not indispensable for his wellbeing. If it was a choice between individual turn out and hand grazing, he'd prefer hand grazing.

There are much bigger welfare concerns imho, like bad riding and ill fitting tack. Neither of which Totilas will ever have to contend with!


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## Apricot (29 March 2011)

I agree with everything Spudlet says. I own a decent number of horses, all of whom work hard, but in reality I am involved with horses because I love them, and feel that they deserve some quality of life, even if they have a job. Withholding turnout is denying them one of their most basic needs, and is in my opinion cruel. 

You put your finger on the button when you said institutionalised, this describes every horse I've ever met that has been stabled 24/7, the way mine went when he had 3 months box rest after breaking his leg, and actually pretty accurately describes the mental state of battery hens. 

I recently bought a horse that had been kept in all his life, and he is only now starting to act like a horse with some individuality, rather than a blank eyed zombie. When I say he doesn't mind being in, what I mean is that he is resigned to being in. I have yet to meet a horse that would be stabled than out!


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## AshTay (29 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Problem?
		
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If you don't know it doesn't matter.

Many horses have been conditioned to want to be in. It's where they get fed and usually have an unlimited supply of hay and let's face it, most yards don't have particularly amazing turnout - of course they want to be in. But I think the whole debate of whether this is about all horses being different or some being mentally ill due this conditioning has already been done on this thread.


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## Nocturnal (29 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			If you don't know it doesn't matter.

Many horses have been conditioned to want to be in. It's where they get fed and usually have an unlimited supply of hay and let's face it, most yards don't have particularly amazing turnout - of course they want to be in. But I think the whole debate of whether this is about all horses being different or some being mentally ill due this conditioning has already been done on this thread.
		
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Yes well, both the horses I know that won't turn out have been owned since they were youngstock by their respective owners. Neither of them have been conditioned, its just the way they are. They have ample grass on top notch turnout, they just don't want to be out there. Not by themselves, not with company.

Trying to fit all horses into the same routine is a recipe for disaster.


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## Apricot (29 March 2011)

jessamess said:



			But what about dogs, cats, rabbits, guinea pigs, birds the list is endless of the amount of animals we have domesticated and taken out of their natural environments!!! Dogs are pack animals many people keep a single dog, and shut it inside the kitchen/cage 9-5 while they are at work! Some cats aren't even allowed out side, where they can act naturally instead they are shut inside house, rabbits are naturally out on massive plains grazing and down holes, instead we shut them in tiny wooden boxes- oh I forget occasionally letting them out into tiny mesh cages where they can have a taste is grass for an hour or so before being shut back in a tiny wooden box usually alone!!! Parrots/birds are another example in the wild they have the skies to fly round and play and be with their species but instead we lock them in tiny metal cages alone, with nothing more to do than just sit their....  And why is this just for our own personal entertainment 

Horses in my eyes get a wonderful life compared to some of our 'lesser earning' pets. We treat them like kings and love them like our own, and we can ride them and compete and have fantastic relationships with them... 

Come on Totilas is kept like royalty and I'm sure with all the lovely top of the range hay/haylage, feeds, work, tack, mares, riders and other fantastic wonders I'm sure he's not really to worried... I think people need to realise that horses ARE about all about money in the real world, most of the people sitting here moaning about a horse not being in the wild have a horse out in their back garden/at a livery yard THEY PAID MONEY FOR!!! 

Totilas is a healthy and clearly happy horse, yes he might not have the 'freedom' as some amateur own horses, but then he is not a 'normal' horse in the slightest!!! He leads a pretty good life if I'm honest I certainly wouldn't complain!!! having millions spent on him people wooing over him!!!

People need to sit back and look at the bigger picture you are all moaning and picking holes at one of the best horses in the world and how he's looked after, when you could be out there giving your attention to all the horses that have been abandoned and left to starve


xxxx
		
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But I disagree with this too! Just because horses have a better life than some animals, doesn't mean that no turnout is right.

And I wouldn't keep any animal of mine the way that you've described here...


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## AshTay (29 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:





Yes well, both the horses I know that won't turn out have been owned since they were youngstock by their respective owners. Neither of them have been conditioned, its just the way they are. They have ample grass on top notch turnout, they just don't want to be out there. Not by themselves, not with company.

Trying to fit all horses into the same routine is a recipe for disaster.
		
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There'll always be someone who can drag up an example of a horse that is the exception to the rule. 

But what you've said actually proves a point - they choose to be in. Did all the dressage horses that are stabled 24/7 get that choice? Or does it just so happen that the ability to reach the upper echelons of dressage is always accompanied by a "natural" tendency to not want to be turned out. I'm guessing not.


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## Nocturnal (29 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			There'll always be someone who can drag up an example of a horse that is the exception to the rule. 

But what you've said actually proves a point - they choose to be in. Did all the dressage horses that are stabled 24/7 get that choice? Or does it just so happen that the ability to reach the upper echelons of dressage is always accompanied by a "natural" tendency to not want to be turned out. I'm guessing not.
		
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Yes, I personally know two horses that are the "exception to the rule". I think its rather silly to have "rules" about how a horse must be handled, as all horses are different.

My point was against people who think all horses must be turned out _period_ (regardless of whether the horses actually WANT to be out). And also that horses can be perfectly happy not going out - my horse would be happy with Totilas' routine.

Really, I think people just enjoy criticising sometimes


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## dressagecrazy (29 March 2011)

Wow what a thread, i clicked on it believing it was about Toto's shoes.

Then it turns into a T/O debate, i had to agree with one of the posters who said that 90% of there horses injurys where due to T/O. I have to say snap mine to, my dressage horse who i turned around from being a very Dangerous horse to a very happy horse had an injury in the field last year. It's a serious one & has meant that 5 years of my work with him has been wiped out. He is the first horse ive managed to train from Prelim to Medium & training Adv. I have to say it's absolutely devistating to have all that work ripped from under me. The horse also is suffering due to the fact he loved his life going out training & competing. He's finding it very hard adjusting.

BUT, i still T/O he should still be on Box rest however he spends his days in a small T/O pen. WHY because being stabled 24/7 made him very ill, i have no idea as to what the future holds for him but he will probably be in a small T/O pen for quite some months yet.
I guess some of you will call me cruel due to it being a small pen, but all i can say is he is a lunitic of a horse in the field. If he does gallop or canter atm it is likely his injury will never come right & he will be PTS.

It's very easy for all of us to sit & judge other's horse keeping skills.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			It????

My horse trashed his tendon bombing about in a field and is now retired. But equally he survived 21 years of bombing about in fields without damaging anything so.....

It's actually quite insulting that you think "half" the people on this thread would just turn him out and throw caution to the wind. We're not that stupid. No one is suggesting we start some sort of "Free Totilas" movement. What people want to see is a change in attitude that results in horses being allowed to be horses even if they happen to be, through no choice of their own, expensive "assets" to the sport.
		
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My horse did both his front suspensories in the field - he was on box rest for near enough 6 months and then 6 months of hand grazing after that. Which meant that when he was brought back into work it was back to square one with his training.

Totilas has natural ability, yes. But part of his movement is down to training and perserverance. Do you think he would continue to move the way he does now if he got chucked out in a field and his work routine totally changed? No.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

Spudlet said:



			If one person competing at _any_ level reads this thread and decides that perhaps they can manage to both compete and turnout, that's a good result in my opinion.
		
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Ours are out from 7am - 4pm. At least 6 days a week. And they both compete Elementary-Medium.

So thanks.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

feisty_filly said:



			i agree, also i dont understand how all this has anything to do with OPs question? they were only asking about the shoes!
		
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 I didn't start the turnout debate? But I am glad you agree.


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## lexiedhb (29 March 2011)

Stephen Clarke's horses go out, even his stallions, so it is not just Carl.

What will become of these "i can not possibly stay in a field" horses when retirement comes then?


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## AshTay (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			Totilas has natural ability, yes. But part of his movement is down to training and perserverance. Do you think he would continue to move the way he does now if he got chucked out in a field and his work routine totally changed? No.
		
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No, he probably wouldn't but would he NOT move the way he does today if he'd been allowed some turnout throughout his training from the beginning??
Are the two incompatible?

I'm gutted that my horse is no longer rideable because of a field injury but if I had the opportunity to go back and keep him in all the time to avoid that happening I'd still turn him out because it's a risk we take in keeping horses. Would be like refusing to let your child out of your sight for fear of bad things happening to them.


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## feisty_filly (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



 I didn't start the turnout debate? But I am glad you agree.
		
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didnt say you did hun was just a genral statement, wasnt realy aimed at anyone  

though id just like to point out to some people on here that the majority of racehorses live in 24/7 and get the same amount of exercise as totilias. what do you think would happen to a town like newmarket if all horses HAD to be turned out?? there are round about 50 yards in the small town and each of them has between 20 - 100 horses stabled there, how exactly would they manage?


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## AshTay (29 March 2011)

feisty_filly said:



			though id just like to point out to some people on here that the majority of racehorses live in 24/7 and get the same amount of exercise as totilias. what do you think would happen to a town like newmarket if all horses HAD to be turned out?? there are round about 50 yards in the small town and each of them has between 20 - 100 horses stabled there, how exactly would they manage?
		
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lol - that'll send the thread off an a whole new tangent.

But again - just because it happens doesn't mean it's ok, whatever the discipline!


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			No, he probably wouldn't but would he NOT move the way he does today if he'd been allowed some turnout throughout his training from the beginning??
Are the two incompatible?

I'm gutted that my horse is no longer rideable because of a field injury but if I had the opportunity to go back and keep him in all the time to avoid that happening I'd still turn him out because it's a risk we take in keeping horses. Would be like refusing to let your child out of your sight for fear of bad things happening to them.
		
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Yes but your horse is not a, worth 12-15 million euros and b, Totilas.


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## feisty_filly (29 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			lol - that'll send the thread off an a whole new tangent.

But again - just because it happens doesn't mean it's ok, whatever the discipline!
		
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oops should have thaught of that 

i dont think its the best way for horses to live there lifes but i also dont see a problem as long as the horses are healthy


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## AshTay (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			Yes but your horse is not a, worth 12-15 million euros and b, Totilas.
		
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How do YOU know a) isn't true for my horse???? lol.

Does that matter anyway? Totilas is a horse!!! Really, he is!!! He's not some sort of super-equine. He eats and poos and pees. He probably loves to gallop about (if he's ever allowed) and would enjoy a roll in a meadow in the sunshine if he could.

Is it ok to treat a horse like a machine because he's got a high price tag on him???

And anyway, it's not just about Totilas, no horse should be treated as anything other than a horse no matter how much he/she costs.


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## Becca-84 (29 March 2011)

Over here, at least in my area, it is the norm for horses to be kept stabled. The livery yard nearest me has almost 90 horses kept there, all of whom are stabled 24/7 and only come out to be ridden. Some of them don't come out of their stables from one week to the next...borderline neglect. The only yard in my area that I'm aware of that has regular turnout is the rescue centre....which is English owned and run. The Spanish just don't do turnout.

In an ideal world horses would all live out 24/7 as the species was designed to do, but I can perfectly see the reasoning behind keeping him in. Yes, its a shame that he doesn't get to run and play about, but I'm sure it isn't doing him any harm as long as he is still has plenty of stimulation to keep him occupied.


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## Amymay (29 March 2011)

Do you think he would continue to move the way he does now if he got chucked out in a field and his work routine totally changed? No.
		
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Turning him out would have no affect on his trained movement.


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## siennamum (29 March 2011)

A few years ago I had a famous racehorse trainer come & try a pony for his granddaughter. Pony would live a life of luxury apparently, with the most famous flat horse at the time on the same yard, with numerous solariums, pools, schools & massive stables - but no turnout to speak of. I was hughely relieved when he said he wasn't suitable and I didn't have to turn him down!

I think stallions are a different case, especially at this time of year when they can pace themselves to a frazzle if allowed. I do think all horse whatever their value should have as much turnout as is feasible though. It is not just a welfare issue. Horses simply never learn to look after themselves if they are stabled all the time, they have no sense of self preservation and they are physically not conditioned in the same way.

We have 20 acres of very hilly ground and all horses that come to us, whether they are used to turnout or not become hardier, more muscled, more settled and better competitors than on a regime with lots of stabling. 

Family based on the continent bemoan the lack of turnout generally, and the lack of understanding on German yards in particular about the importance of turnout. You only have to look round the stables at a place like Verden, and the preponderance of facial injuries, where horses have hit their heads on the bars seperating them from other horses, to get a sense of how different life is for horses over there.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

amymay said:



			Turning him out would have no affect on his trained movement.
		
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READ the last bit. I said 'work routine totally changed'. Turning him out wouldn't no. But it would mean his schedule would have to be altered and his progress might be slowed.


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## Amymay (29 March 2011)

But it would mean his schedule would have to be altered
		
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Sorry, but you simply make absolutely no sense at all.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			How do YOU know a) isn't true for my horse???? lol.

Does that matter anyway? Totilas is a horse!!! Really, he is!!! He's not some sort of super-equine. He eats and poos and pees. He probably loves to gallop about (if he's ever allowed) and would enjoy a roll in a meadow in the sunshine if he could.

Is it ok to treat a horse like a machine because he's got a high price tag on him???

And anyway, it's not just about Totilas, no horse should be treated as anything other than a horse no matter how much he/she costs.
		
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I think I would have heard a little bit more about you if your horse was worth anything near that price tag. Especially since you live in the same area as me.

I never said Toto was anything other that a horse......

Sorry, but the entire equestrian industry is not going to bend to this. Across the EU it is common for horses (note, I am *not* saying it is right) to be stabled a majority, if not, all the time. It is the norm. It is accepted (note, I am *not* saying it is right) for this to happen. Get over it.

If you really disagree with it that much, start a petition. Start a campaign. Do something other than furiously typing replies to me.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

Deleted. Because it's not worth the aggro.


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## Nocturnal (29 March 2011)

amymay said:



			Turning him out would have no affect on his trained movement.
		
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Not sure I agree with this. Turning horses out has a notable (detrimental) effect on muscle development. For an amatuer's horse this probably is not that important, but for a horse like Totilas it would be significant.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Not sure I agree with this. Turning horses out has a notable (detrimental) effect on muscle development. For an amatuer's horse this probably is not that important, but for a horse like Totilas it would be significant.
		
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What I was trying to say.


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## AshTay (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			I think I would have heard a little bit more about you if your horse was worth anything near that price tag. Especially since you live in the same area as me.

I never said Toto was anything other that a horse......

Sorry, but the entire equestrian industry is not going to bend to this. Across the EU it is common for horses (note, I am *not* saying it is right) to be stabled a majority, if not, all the time. It is the norm. It is accepted (note, I am *not* saying it is right) for this to happen. Get over it.

If you really disagree with it that much, start a petition. Start a campaign. Do something other than furiously typing replies to me.
		
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lol - I'm no more furiously typing replies to you than you are furiously typing replies to me!!! Get over yourself.

And I apologise for thinking that a forum was a place to voice opinions on things that one may or may not believe in


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## Allover (29 March 2011)

This horse is only 10 this year, i wonder how many years he actually has in him, due to his managment and riding regime, before his body finally gives up on him. Hey ho at least he can retire to stud and produce even more massive moving horses for the dressage community to cripple when they should be coming into their prime, plenty more out there to buy though when they go wrong. What really gets me about these threads on the top horses getting turn out is that it is not just about the horse not being turned out, it is the whole approach to how they are kept. Completely detrimental to the horses physical and mental wellbeing.

I wonder what it takes to keep this horse competition sound.

As for agrophobic horses, there are ways and means to get them to turn out, just takes time and patience, sadly lacking in the competition world!


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## dominobrown (29 March 2011)

Right, I thought this was about shoes?? It would be intersting to see his feet close up.

On the turnout issue, money seems to be no issue right?
Well surely they could boot him up and turn him out in a custom made post and rail paddock (you see paddocks with no 'corners' which often v. expensive racehorse broodmares live in), and pay a groom to watch him. Even if he is just out for an hour a day in a level grassy paddock.
Fair enough, don't turn him out in a field with 20 other horses fenced with barbed wire....
My pointer is stabled most of them time. He gets grazed in hand, but he is also let out in the small paddock for a mooch about. Yes he does normally gallop about and do some handstands etc but I would rather him do it then instead of when I am on board! Also he is turned out all summer with his mates in a big field. Does totilas have holidays? 
 Is the point of turning them out is to let them have a buck and roll and canter about?


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## amandap (29 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Not sure I agree with this. Turning horses out has a notable (detrimental) effect on muscle development. For an amatuer's horse this probably is not that important, but for a horse like Totilas it would be significant.
		
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Please point me to evidence for this 'detrimental' effect on muscle development? Are there any studies on this?

If this were the case then foals would never be allowed turn out from birth? Or is it a detrimental effect on the muscles we humans are trying to develop to produce spectacular gaits? 
Hmmm this leads to a thought that conversely muscles are being allowed to atrophy if horses are turned out?  I can't buy this I'm afraid.
Human athletes would definitely be locked in solitary if this were true...

The only way I can see an advantage is allow certain muscles to develop and others to atrophy (by not exercizing them) to produce a particular gait/movement? Surely this can't be the case?


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## Amymay (29 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Not sure I agree with this. Turning horses out has a notable (detrimental) effect on muscle development. For an amatuer's horse this probably is not that important, but for a horse like Totilas it would be significant.
		
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Are you seriously trying to tell me that a horse mooching around in a field for an hour or two (or heaven forbid longer), using it's muscles in a natural way is detrimental??

There are a few odd things in this thread - but this caps it.  Sorry.


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## Spudlet (29 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			lol - I'm no more furiously typing replies to you than you are furiously typing replies to me!!! Get over yourself.

And I apologise for thinking that a forum was a place to voice opinions on things that one may or may not believe in 

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Oh now, do shut up Ashtay. You're very unimportant, and probably quite poor, you great plebian How dare you have an opinion!


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## Allover (29 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Not sure I agree with this. Turning horses out has a notable (detrimental) effect on muscle development. For an amatuer's horse this probably is not that important, but for a horse like Totilas it would be significant.
		
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Did i read that right and you are saying that it is detrimental to the horses muscles for it to be turned out?

Are you serious, i would love to know where you got this information from!


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## Shilasdair (29 March 2011)

Hmmm
So where does all of this turnout/no turnout debate leave me with my poor horse (she's allergic to grass)?  
S


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## Allover (29 March 2011)

Slaughter house, might make a bit of money off her


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## Spudlet (29 March 2011)

Shilasdair said:



			Hmmm
So where does all of this turnout/no turnout debate leave me with my poor horse (she's allergic to grass)?  
S 

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What?! There's grass in Hades?

Tell her to smoke something other than pot, she'll be fine and dandy


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## lexiedhb (29 March 2011)

Shilasdair said:



			Hmmm
So where does all of this turnout/no turnout debate leave me with my poor horse (she's allergic to grass)?  
S 

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2 options

Shed load of antihistamine or shoot it


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## Shilasdair (29 March 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			2 options

Shed load of antihistamine or shoot it
		
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Option 1 - shed load of antihistamine didn't work.
Option 2 - no one will let me have a gun.

S


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## lexiedhb (29 March 2011)

Shilasdair said:



			Option 1 - shed load of antihistamine didn't work.
Option 2 - no one will let me have a gun.

S 

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LOL

I do hope the allergy does not manifest itself as sneezing vast quantities of snot all over the place...... 

You could artificially grass your field?
http://www.theartificialgrasspeople.co.uk/?gclid=CIiggZGC9KcCFQoZ4Qod-00kag


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## MICHAELA8228 (29 March 2011)

Blimey, OP - bet you wish you'd never asked!!!!!!


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## charlie76 (29 March 2011)

laura B does not turn Alf out either, she did but he kept hurting himself so no longer does. 
There is a massive difference (whether we like it or not) between a 'pet' horse and a horse that is kept for top competition horses/racehorse. Like it or not, they are a business commodoity!
Oh and horse can be allergic to grass:
http://www.ehow.com/about_6570841_horse-grass-allergies.html


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## Shilasdair (29 March 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			LOL

I do hope the allergy does not manifest itself as sneezing vast quantities of snot all over the place...... 

You could artificially grass your field?
http://www.theartificialgrasspeople.co.uk/?gclid=CIiggZGC9KcCFQoZ4Qod-00kag


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Artificial grass looks like a fine idea - a unique form of psychological torture for when she annoys me.
S


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## dominobrown (29 March 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			LOL

I do hope the allergy does not manifest itself as sneezing vast quantities of snot all over the place...... 

You could artificially grass your field?
http://www.theartificialgrasspeople.co.uk/?gclid=CIiggZGC9KcCFQoZ4Qod-00kag


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I am sorry, but that is the most useless company ever? Just buy some grass seed!


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## AshTay (29 March 2011)

Spudlet said:



			Oh now, do shut up Ashtay. You're very unimportant, and probably quite poor, you great plebian How dare you have an opinion!



Click to expand...

owkaaaay 

Someone (can't possibly say who) suggested that nothing could be done by people like me and my fellow plebs. It's not going to happen overnight but collectively we could start to make our voices heard by doing simple things such as buying merchandise and products endorsed by the riders who treat their horses how we like to see horses treated and by ignoring anything to do with riders who don't treat their horses *properly*. Just an idea. Many riders rely on sponsors who sponsor riders to get their products sold so if their chosen rider isn't popular with the people they're targetting their product at then.....


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## lexiedhb (29 March 2011)

Ummm Hoss is allergic!! LOL


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## Nocturnal (29 March 2011)

amandap said:



			Please point me to evidence for this 'detrimental' effect on muscle development? Are there any studies on this?
		
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Oh my, perhaps I should ask for scientific studies to back up the enormous load of codswallop being spouted in the rest of this thread, such as 'horses that don't like turn out must be mentally ill' pmsl. My statement was based on personal experience.

Turnout a) works muscles not needed for high level dressage, thus is detrimental, and b) doesn't allow the proper rest of correct muscles after excercise that's beneficial for optimum muscle development.

Again, just my experience. If all you do is hack or jump, however, you probably wouldn't notice a difference.


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## HashRouge (29 March 2011)

I stopped having a lot of faith in the "he's too valuable to turn out" argument when I saw this photo in the racing post. Yep, it's Kauto and Denman!


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## Spudlet (29 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Oh my, perhaps I should ask for scientific studies to back up the enormous load of codswallop being spouted in the rest of this thread, such as 'horses that don't like turn out must be mentally ill' pmsl. My statement was based on personal experience.

Turnout a) works muscles not needed for high level dressage, thus is detrimental, and b) doesn't allow the proper rest of correct muscles after excercise that's beneficial for optimum muscle development.

Again, just my experience. If all you do is hack or jump, however, you probably wouldn't notice a difference.
		
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Excuse me? I said that SOME horses that don't like turnout are institutionalised, and SOME of those could well be mentally ill - and I stand by that.


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## SamanthaG (29 March 2011)

I dont want to turn this into a turn out debate, but even local liveries argue whats correct for an everyday happy hacker,  some are real advocates of 24/7 turn out and  call the people who stable at night and during the day in bad weather lazy and incorrect and accuse them of molly coddling their horses, where as people who stable at night and during rainy days think people who turn out 24/7 are lazy and mean, and just cant be assed to do their horses twice a day. Neither are correct, all horses/owners are different, because my TB is an ex racer his stable is his safe zone and the place he would rather be, he is still turned out during the day, but given the choice he would rather be in as that is what he knows and was used to for so many years. Turned out 24/7 would turn him into a blind panic.


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## pedilia (29 March 2011)

HashRouge said:



			I stopped having a lot of faith in the "he's too valuable to turn out" argument when I saw this photo in the racing post. Yep, it's Kauto and Denman!






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Love that!!


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## Flame_ (29 March 2011)

charlie76 said:



			laura B does not turn Alf out either, she did but he kept hurting himself so no longer does. 
There is a massive difference (whether we like it or not) between a 'pet' horse and a horse that is kept for top competition horses/racehorse. Like it or not, they are a business commodoity!
		
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Even Kauto and Denman get holidays out at grass. ETA - You beat me!

I agree that there is a big difference between pet and working horses - one tends to get the bullet when it is of no use - that doesn't mean its welfare should be sub-standard whilst it is kept to be a commodity. 

Grazing is nice, but it is more the freedom to run, explode and mix with other horses that IMO is as important to horse welfare as food and water.


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## charlie76 (29 March 2011)

Its the turn out at grass 'when on holiday' that is important to note though. There is no way on earth that they would be turned out whilst racing.
And it also important to note that (unless I am wrong and I am happy to be corrected) that the 2 racehorses are geldings, not stallions.


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## AshTay (29 March 2011)

charlie76 said:



			Its the turn out at grass 'when on holiday' that is important to note though. There is no way on earth that they would be turned out whilst racing.
And it also important to note that (unless I am wrong and I am happy to be corrected) that the 2 racehorses are geldings, not stallions.
		
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Don't Push It lives out. All the time apparently (so I'm told).


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## Amymay (29 March 2011)

charlie76 said:



			Its the turn out at grass 'when on holiday' that is important to note though. There is no way on earth that they would be turned out whilst racing.
And it also important to note that (unless I am wrong and I am happy to be corrected) that the 2 racehorses are geldings, not stallions.
		
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I think they get a leg stretch in the field all year round actually.


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## amandap (29 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Oh my, perhaps I should ask for scientific studies to back up the enormous load of codswallop being spouted in the rest of this thread, such as 'horses that don't like turn out must be mentally ill' pmsl. My statement was based on personal experience.

Turnout a) works muscles not needed for high level dressage, thus is detrimental, and b) doesn't allow the proper rest of correct muscles after excercise that's beneficial for optimum muscle development.

Again, just my experience. If all you do is hack or jump, however, you probably wouldn't notice a difference.
		
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Going by that theory, strapping horses into devices so they only use required muscles sounds a much more effective way to go. 
So horse athletes are different to human athletes then? I have never seen a human athlete locked in his/her room in case he develops the wrong muscles or doesn't cool the right ones down though...  Oh yes, you can't talk to horses can you and tell em to behave themselves... 
I thought that was the point of the careful exercizing over years to develop the correct muscles. Never cease to learn do you. 

Oh well, it seems I will just never get the hang of this looking after horses correctly the human way when money is involved.


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## amandap (29 March 2011)

Flame_ said:



			Grazing is nice, but it is more the freedom to run, explode and mix with other horses that IMO is as important to horse welfare as food and water.
		
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To me too.  The freedom to walk where you want whenever you want at least some of the time rather than having your every move controlled.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			Someone (can't possibly say who) suggested that nothing could be done by people like me and my fellow plebs.
		
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Haha go back to your clique. No one ever called you a pleb. And I said that people who don't like Totos (and similars) lifestyle, should campaign about it, instead of spouting ridiculous theories on here.


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## muffinino (29 March 2011)

stroppy said:



			you say its cruel to not turn out , I say its to bloody risky to put any horse out full stop
		
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I'm going to assume you're joking as you surely can't be serious.

I understand that competition horses are worth a hella lot of money, but I think it's a shame that any horse would be kept in from breaking onwards and conditioned to it, no matter what they are worth or bred for. I cannot believe that horses in general are happier in, or would be happier in if they had the chance to be turned out (as in, if they'd always been turned out.

Agree with Spudlet - Carl Hester? What does he know, aye?  Having said that, he seems to have his out from when they're youngsters, so they get used to it and don't go bonkers when turned out. Sensible man, that.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Again, just my experience. If all you do is hack or jump, however, you probably wouldn't notice a difference.
		
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I think you'll find that most of the people who disagree with you are happy hackers who have no concept of competition training.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

charlie76 said:



			There is a massive difference (whether we like it or not) between a 'pet' horse and a horse that is kept for top competition horses/racehorse. Like it or not, they are a business commodoity!
		
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The exact point I have been trying to get across.


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## Nocturnal (29 March 2011)

amandap said:



			Going by that theory, strapping horses into devices so they only use required muscles sounds a much more effective way to go. 
So horse athletes are different to human athletes then? I have never seen a human athlete locked in his/her room in case he develops the wrong muscles or doesn't cool the right ones down though...  Oh yes, you can't talk to horses can you and tell em to behave themselves... 
I thought that was the point of the careful exercizing over years to develop the correct muscles. Never cease to learn do you. 

Oh well, it seems I will just never get the hang of this looking after horses correctly the human way when money is involved. 

Click to expand...

No, I believe riding them correctly is the best way to go. And providing optimum nutrition and a careful excercise routine.

And human athletes are not the property of anybody else. Locking one in a room would be called 'enslavement'. 

The point I am trying to make, is that you don't get Totilases by turning them out in a field. Sad, but true.


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## Spudlet (29 March 2011)

Most likely all happy hackers, yes.

Other than Mr Hester.
And the owners and trainers of Denman and Kauto.
And the Olympic-level GP rider that someone on here used to work for.
And William Fox-Pitt, who I think you will find turned Tamarillo out in a sand school while at the Olympics.
And the owner and trainer of Don't Push It.

Although hopefully, they are happy people and I would hope that they also get some pleasure from hacking as well, so perhaps technically, they can be described as happy hackers?


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## FrodoBeutlin (29 March 2011)

muffinino said:



			I'm going to assume you're joking as you surely can't be serious.
		
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I know plenty of riders on the Continent who genuinely believe it is far too dangerous to put horses out at all. Hence the total lack of paddocks in very many yards including some top ones.

As I said Carl Hester is an exception rather than the rule, I know at least two Olympic riders who believe turnout is just too dangerous and I am sure the majority of competition fit, top dressage horses are not turned out.

I personally like my horses out as regularly as possible and when I choose a yard the availability of turnout is very high up in my list of priorities, but then again I have never spent a six-figure sum on a horse.


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## AshTay (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			Haha go back to your clique. No one ever called you a pleb. And I said that people who don't like Totos (and similars) lifestyle, should campaign about it, instead of spouting ridiculous theories on here.
		
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Clique? Eh?

And did I not then go on to suggest a way of "campaigning"? Or does it have to be placards?

No pleasing some people.


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## charlie76 (29 March 2011)

And Carl picks and chooses which are actually turned out and which are hand grazed. He would assess that depending on each horses temprement and I imagine, the owners wishes. 
You also have to remember that in a big competition/racing yard the logistics of turning out, catching and grooming 'x' amount of horses before riding/training everyday, would be a nightmare.


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## quirky (29 March 2011)

* Pondering out loud *

I wonder if they are not turned out due to insurance, or lack off.
As I understand it, these horses aren't insured for accidents (or is it vets fees?) due to their 'job', they are at far greater risk of injury than a 'normal' horse.

You see, I can see that as being a fairly valid reason, even if I don't agree with it.

Regardless of how much he's worth, they still cost the same amount to fix ... as all those of us who have had vets to our horses can testify.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			Clique? Eh?

And did I not then go on to suggest a way of "campaigning"? Or does it have to be placards?

No pleasing some people.
		
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Who said anything about placards? You're arguing for arguments sake. You make my head hurt.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

charlie76 said:



			You also have to remember that in a big competition/racing yard the logistics of turning out, catching and grooming 'x' amount of horses before riding/training everyday, would be a nightmare.
		
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Agreed. Putting 4 out in the morning and bringing 4 in in the evening takes enough time!


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## Allover (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			I think you'll find that most of the people who disagree with you are happy hackers who have no concept of competition training.
		
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Or they could be people who have worked their whole lives with horses and have studied their behaviour in many different enviroments and believe that as soon as you take a horse as a "commodity" you lose any sense of what horses are about and treat them in the most financially sound way possible and then maybe get a huge insurance payoff when the horse is "*********" as a 10 year old and can no longer do its job becuase of the way the owner has looked after it.

They may also be people who have studied equine anatomy and physiology and has a basic knowledge of the principles of flatwork training and why working all muscles CORRECTLY is the only way to keep them sound. Not using important muscle groups when a horse is turned out my arse, its the best way for a horse to loosen up any tight muscles and really stretch his back in a way that they dont when ridden. ETA especially the dressage horses.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			The point I am trying to make, is that you don't get Totilases by turning them out in a field. Sad, but true.
		
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If only....can you imagine a shetland-sized Totilas?? *sniggers*


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## amandap (29 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			No, I believe riding them correctly is the best way to go. And providing optimum nutrition and a careful excercise routine.

And human athletes are not the property of anybody else. Locking one in a room would be called 'enslavement'.
		
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That's what I call it. 


Nocturnal said:



			The point I am trying to make, is that you don't get Totilases by turning them out in a field. Sad, but true.
		
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Mmmmm, I'm afraid I don't want to even see a beautiful Totilas if it means he has to be a 'slave' to any other living being, even a human one. What is different about horses that locking them in a room most of the time and control what they do the rest of the time is ok but if we do that to humans we're enslaving them? 

Don't forget you used the word slave and just for the record, I never said anything about horses and mental illness on this thread.


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## Nocturnal (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			If only....can you imagine a shetland-sized Totilas?? *sniggers*
		
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Pmsl! You haven't met the pony stallion on my yard, blue and white and all of 12hh, but he's convinced he's a mini totilas!


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

Allover said:



			Or they could be people who have worked their whole lives with horses and have studied their behaviour in many different enviroments and believe that as soon as you take a horse as a "commodity" you lose any sense of what horses are about and treat them in the most financially sound way possible and then maybe get a huge insurance payoff when the horse is "*********" as a 10 year old and can no longer do its job becuase of the way the owner has looked after it.

They may also be people who have studied equine anatomy and physiology and has a basic knowledge of the principles of flatwork training and why working all muscles CORRECTLY is the only way to keep them sound. Not using important muscle groups when a horse is turned out my arse, its the best way for a horse to loosen up any tight muscles and really stretch his back in a way that they dont when ridden. ETA especially the dressage horses.
		
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I *think* you'll find that I said 'most'....not all....and certainly not specifically you. Here's some advice, get off your high horse, and remove your twisted knickers from your uptight behind.


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## Allover (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			I *think* you'll find that I said 'most'....not all....and certainly not specifically you. Here's some advice, get off your high horse, and remove your twisted knickers from your uptight behind.
		
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Do you have your period


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## muffinino (29 March 2011)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			I know plenty of riders on the Continent who genuinely believe it is far too dangerous to put horses out at all. Hence the total lack of paddocks in very many yards including some top ones.

As I said Carl Hester is an exception rather than the rule, I know at least two Olympic riders who believe turnout is just too dangerous and I am sure the majority of competition fit, top dressage horses are not turned out.

I personally like my horses out as regularly as possible and when I choose a yard the availability of turnout is very high up in my list of priorities, but then again I have never spent a six-figure sum on a horse.
		
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Yes, it may be the norm, but that doesn't mean that they're correct (in my eyes). It was the comment that it's too dangerous to turn any horse out that made me raise my eyebrows.

I only use CH as he had already been brought up in the thread and I don't know enough to comment on other top riders. I accept that people do keep them in and a fit, top horse is a different beast to the majority of those on livery yards. My point is, I suppose, that CH and a few others mentioned here have proved that it is possible to turn a top horse out and it won't automatically die of excitment 

I see what you're saying about yard choices and the figure spent on the horse, but in my ideal world, horses should be turned out for some time every day, regardless of price. Realistically, I know that horses worth the vast sums that Toto is will probably be kept in.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Pmsl! You haven't met the pony stallion on my yard, blue and white and all of 12hh, but he's convinced he's a mini totilas! 

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He sounds wicked! I know of a bright orange 12.2hh pony who really honestly actually does move like Toto. If I weren't so tall and didn't have Bruce I would have him like a shot!!


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

Allover said:



			Do you have your period 

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Nah Hun, I don't get em. Would you like to inquire about any of my other bodily functions??


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## Nocturnal (29 March 2011)

Allover said:



			Or they could be people who have worked their whole lives with horses and have studied their behaviour in many different enviroments and believe that as soon as you take a horse as a "commodity" you lose any sense of what horses are about and treat them in the most financially sound way possible and then maybe get a huge insurance payoff when the horse is "*********" as a 10 year old and can no longer do its job becuase of the way the owner has looked after it.

They may also be people who have studied equine anatomy and physiology and has a basic knowledge of the principles of flatwork training and why working all muscles CORRECTLY is the only way to keep them sound. Not using important muscle groups when a horse is turned out my arse, its the best way for a horse to loosen up any tight muscles and really stretch his back in a way that they dont when ridden. ETA especially the dressage horses.
		
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*Shrug* I have no idea what qualifications any of you do or don't have, I'm just speaking from my own experience. Have *you* ever done a similar experiment? Comparing the training of a horse with turn out and then the same horse without? I have, and I've already explained the results.


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## Allover (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			Nah Hun, I don't get em. Would you like to inquire about any of my other bodily functions??
		
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Only if they are in some way interesting, unusual or just a bit "freaky"


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## Allover (29 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			*Shrug* I have no idea what qualifications any of you do or don't have, I'm just speaking from my own experience. Have *you* ever done a similar experiment? Comparing the training of a horse with turn out and then the same horse without? I have, and I've already explained the results.
		
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Yes i have. But it is not just about turn out, it is about their whole managment routine.


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## Nocturnal (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			He sounds wicked! I know of a bright orange 12.2hh pony who really honestly actually does move like Toto. If I weren't so tall and didn't have Bruce I would have him like a shot!!
		
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Heh, sounds like our guy! Really impressive totilas-like forleg action... do you want him?? He chased me + a mare down a path on the weekend, broke straight through a post and rail fence... and he'd probably kill you if you sat on him! Apart from that he's great though


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## Nocturnal (29 March 2011)

amandap said:



			That's what I call it. 

Mmmmm, I'm afraid I don't want to even see a beautiful Totilas if it means he has to be a 'slave' to any other living being, even a human one. What is different about horses that locking them in a room most of the time and control what they do the rest of the time is ok but if we do that to humans we're enslaving them? 

Don't forget you used the word slave and just for the record, I never said anything about horses and mental illness on this thread.
		
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All horses are legally 'property'. And so long as that's the case, some won't be turned out. Totilas has the very best care, and I'm not convinced that turnout would significantly improve his mental wellbeing. He's a stallion, after all, and would most likely have to go out alone.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Heh, sounds like our guy! Really impressive totilas-like forleg action... do you want him?? He chased me + a mare down a path on the weekend, broke straight through a post and rail fence... and he'd probably kill you if you sat on him! Apart from that he's great though 

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Dammit....I need to find a small child with balls of steel that I can duct tape to its saddle....


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## Amymay (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			Agreed. Putting 4 out in the morning and bringing 4 in in the evening takes enough time!
		
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Really? Surely it's a two min job??


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## amandap (29 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			All horses are legally 'property'. And so long as that's the case, some won't be turned out. Totilas has the very best care, and I'm not convinced that turnout would significantly improve his mental wellbeing. He's a stallion, after all, and would most likely have to go out alone.
		
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No this argument has no sway with me in the slightest. We may well 'own' other living creatures in our terms but we don't have a right imo to own them ethically or morally. That is in the sense that they have a duty to us purely because we 'own' them. That they must abide by our rules of life however far removed from their needs and lifestyle. 

Nah, that's not horseownership to me.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

amymay said:



			Really? Surely it's a two min job??
		
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Morning: Put feed in stables. Unrug 4 horses. Put rugs away. Get rugs out. Rerug 4 horses. Wait for horses to finish eating. Put muzzles/head collars on horses. Oil feet. Walk up 5 acres, put 2 horses in one field, put 2 horses in another field. Switch on fencing. Walk back down 5 acres.

Evening: Get 2 horses from one field, walk down field with them. Put in wash box. Wash feet. Pick out feet. Oil feet. Wash face/eyes/nose. Put in stable. Go back up field. Catch other 2. Walk back down field. Put in wash box. Wash feet. Pick out feet. Oil feet. Wash face/eyes/nose. Put in stable. Unrug 4 horses. Put rugs away. Get rugs out. Rerug 4 horses.

Not everyone has horses that can be chucked in/dragged out a field at a seconds notice, sorry!


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## Natch (29 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Oh my, perhaps I should ask for scientific studies to back up the enormous load of codswallop being spouted in the rest of this thread, such as 'horses that don't like turn out must be mentally ill' pmsl. My statement was based on personal experience.

Turnout a) works muscles not needed for high level dressage, thus is detrimental, and b) doesn't allow the proper rest of correct muscles after excercise that's beneficial for optimum muscle development.

Again, just my experience. If all you do is hack or jump, however, you probably wouldn't notice a difference.
		
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A polite list of questions if I may:

Which muscles aren't needed for dressage?
Why is working muscles which aren't needed for dressage necessarily detrimental? I can't see that, especially if its not for very long periods. 
 Why is "proper rest" after excercise better served by being in a stable and not turned out? Surely wandering around grazing (assuming this rather than hooning around) allows effective drainage of toxins and gentle exercise is good?



Shilasdair said:



			Hmmm
So where does all of this turnout/no turnout debate leave me with my poor horse (she's allergic to grass)?  
S 

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Off topic, but you asked a while ago about ideas of what to feed her. What did you eventually decide upon?


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## Maesfen (29 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			How do YOU know a) isn't true for my horse???? lol.

Does that matter anyway? Totilas is a horse!!! Really, he is!!! He's not some sort of super-equine. He eats and poos and pees. He probably loves to gallop about (if he's ever allowed) and would enjoy a roll in a meadow in the sunshine if he could.

Is it ok to treat a horse like a machine because he's got a high price tag on him???

And anyway, it's not just about Totilas, no horse should be treated as anything other than a horse no matter how much he/she costs.
		
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They're all only worth meat money when they're dead no matter what their price tag is when alive.

Do they never turn him loose in a school at least, poor sod if they can't even do that.


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## ester (29 March 2011)

surely if it takes so long to turn out and bring in/prepare for riding you'd think, given the cost of the horse you would just employ more staff  

I read this thread when it was just the original question.. my automatic reaction was  the horse needs to have boots on all 4 legs and feet just to have a bite of grass, I struggle to imagine how having boots on so much would do the legs much good, though I have a 'tough' ginger native that goes scabby if he even looks at a boot!

In fact I think I have solved the problem, re I think weezy's comment earlier.. ban warmbloods from dressage make everyone do it on welsh cobs then they can just chuck them out in the field and stop worrying. 

Just thought aswell, racehorses generally get an annual holiday in the field or doing something a bit different. Does the same happen with dressage horses or no? Genuine question that one as I don't know the answer!


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

ester said:



			surely if it takes so long to turn out and bring in/prepare for riding you'd think, given the cost of the horse you would just employ more staff 

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Lol. Better not be aimed at me.


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## HashRouge (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			Lol. Better not be aimed at me.
		
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I'm assuming she meant that if people own horses that cost as much as Totilas, then surely they can afford to employ the staff to turn them out. So I doubt it was directed at you!


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## Jericho (29 March 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			What about being able to run and jump about, kicking it's heels in the air?

What about having a roll, and laying in the sun?

What about it's natural way of 'foraging' about to find food?

Look at chickens, all they want to do is scratch and peck about, flapping their wings out sometimes. Stuck in a battery cage, they have no hope.

A horse in the stable 24/7 surely is like the battery hen, in a similar way.

I don't care HOW well-looked after it is, you are removing at least SOME of the natural ways the horse lives.

.
		
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Agree 100% with this. Given that he now spends most of his time confined I suspect he does freak every time he is let loose - either through fear as he can longer cope or through sheer 'I'm freeeeeee' exuberance. He is conditioned now to accept his life as the norm - doesnt mean it is right or even acceptable but then it all comes down to them protecting their investment.. And I bet the PR machine is well trained enough to say he hates being out....


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

HashRouge said:



			I'm assuming she meant that if people own horses that cost as much as Totilas, then surely they can afford to employ the staff to turn them out. So I doubt it was directed at you!
		
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The succession of posts before makes me feel a little dubious about that. But nevermind.


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## tallyho! (29 March 2011)

stroppy said:



			so what if he is booted, all round actually not just behind, prevention is better than cure!!
		
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prevention???how do you prevent something already occurred???


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## Amymay (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			Morning: Put feed in stables. Unrug 4 horses. Put rugs away. Get rugs out. Rerug 4 horses. Wait for horses to finish eating. Put muzzles/head collars on horses. Oil feet. Walk up 5 acres, put 2 horses in one field, put 2 horses in another field. Switch on fencing. Walk back down 5 acres.

Evening: Get 2 horses from one field, walk down field with them. Put in wash box. Wash feet. Pick out feet. Oil feet. Wash face/eyes/nose. Put in stable. Go back up field. Catch other 2. Walk back down field. Put in wash box. Wash feet. Pick out feet. Oil feet. Wash face/eyes/nose. Put in stable. Unrug 4 horses. Put rugs away. Get rugs out. Rerug 4 horses.

Not everyone has horses that can be chucked in/dragged out a field at a seconds notice, sorry!
		
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Ah, my bad.

Try doing that for 7 or  8. Now that does take some time


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## Maesfen (29 March 2011)

But NM, don't you know how bad for them it is to always be covering them in hoof oil; that'd save five minutes at least.


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## Kokopelli (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			Dammit....I need to find a small child with balls of steel that I can duct tape to its saddle....
		
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I'm small! Pick me   

I also have balls of steel on anything under 13hh!


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## ester (29 March 2011)

no not you nikki, I did mean in totilas' situation, you can do your own donkey work  

I just didn't take that as valid reasoning for a horse not having turnout on a professional yard as it is all just part of their care and hence isn't just an inconvenience sort of thing


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

Maesfen said:



			But NM, don't you know how bad for them it is to always be covering them in hoof oil; that'd save five minutes at least.
		
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Ours are barefoot, so like to keep their horsey tootsies moisturized, thanks.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

ester said:



			no not you nikki, I did mean in totilas' situation, you can do your own donkey work  

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I like doing the donkey work  Except poo picking. I detest poo picking.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

amymay said:



			Ah, my bad.

Try doing that for 7 or  8. Now that does take some time 

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Yeah, we've had 7 at one stage. And I had help do them before I caught a 7.10am bus to school.


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## eggs (29 March 2011)

amymay said:



			Lord, I have never read so much tosh in all my life.

All the pro riders I know turn they horses out.  And guess what - just like old Helen happy hackers horses, they don't injure themselves.  Amazing that.  And quite possibly due to the fact that going is out is the norm - not the exception, so they don't explode everytime they are turned out.
		
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I read that Alf (Mistral Hojris) isn't turned out either as he kept injuring himself.

Yes, in an ideal world, horses would be turned out in company -mine certainly are - (how many of you complaining about the way Totilas is kept also have individual turnout?) but the economics of it dictate that Toto is kept as 'safe' as possible.


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## Tinkerbee (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			Yeah, we've had 7 at one stage. And I had help do them before I caught a 7.10am bus to school.
		
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And I bet you had to walk 10 miles back, barefoot in the snow


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## Tinypony (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			Ours are barefoot, so like to keep their horsey tootsies moisturized, thanks.
		
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Hoof oil not a good idea for barefoot horses.  Check out the barefoot sites.


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## eggs (29 March 2011)

Naturally said:



			Its sad that it comes down to that. I also believe this is an unfounded belief; how many times do we hear about one of Carl Hester's top rides having to be retired or PTS due to an injury out hacking or in the field?
		
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Unfortunately Negretto, a very promising young stallion of Carl's died as a result of a hacking accident.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

Tinkerbee said:



			And I bet you had to walk 10 miles back, barefoot in the snow 

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Erm...okay...*scared look at weird nonsensical comment*


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Hoof oil not a good idea for barefoot horses.  Check out the barefoot sites.
		
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It's not hoof oil. It's specific for barefoot horses I just can't remember it's name, since I'm a good 200 miles+ from home..... Anything else you want to attempt to patronize me about?...and fail? Epically?? Since when was this thread about what I put on my horses feet?? :S


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## PoppyAnderson (29 March 2011)

My horse has always been turned out but she has recently gone on to 24 hour turnout and OMG, has her attitude changed! She used to be a dolly when she was out in the day and in at night but now she's like a stroppy teenage girl with a 'whatever' face and attitude to work. Just throwing that in to the mix! Oh and I once knew of an expensive dressage horse which was kept in 24 hours a day (at Gleneagles EC no less) and it was nothing short of neglect. Horse was sold and the new owner had it sedated at first, to aclimatise it to being turned out, so that it didn't go ballistic and hurt itself. After a period of time, it adjusted and went out daily in a calm manner without any sedation, as it had no pent up energy to get rid of.


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## tallyho! (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			It's not hoof oil. It's specific for barefoot horses I just can't remember it's name, since I'm a good 200 miles+ from home..... Anything else you want to attempt to patronize me about?...and fail? Epically??
		
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Whoa why is everyone having a go at you NM??? I'd jump in and defend you but I get sick of arguing over nothing on here sometimes but just wanted to give you a big hug x


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## Kokopelli (29 March 2011)

PoppyAnderson said:



			My horse has always been turned out but she has recently gone on to 24 hour turnout and OMG, has her attitude changed! She used to be a dolly when she was out in the day and in at night but now she's like a stroppy teenage girl with a 'whatever' face and attitude to work. Just throwing that in to the mix!.
		
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Bit random has she got any better? My boy has been acting funny since going out 24/7 so we decided to bring in at night again and he's settled back down again. I think its because he likes his routine.


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## PoppyAnderson (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			I think you'll find that most of the people who disagree with you are happy hackers who have no concept of competition training.
		
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Wow, not arrogant enough! You usually come across as a balanced and informed person but seriously, that comment is very misjudged.


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## tallyho! (29 March 2011)

Kokopelli said:



			Bit random has she got any better? My boy has been acting funny since going out 24/7 so we decided to bring in at night again and he's settled back down again. I think its because he likes his routine.
		
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Yes good idea - suppose it could be the sugary season for grass now we've some sun


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## Kokopelli (29 March 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Yes good idea - suppose it could be the sugary season for grass now we've some sun 

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Don't get me started on spring grass! I hate the stuff


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Whoa why is everyone having a go at you NM??? I'd jump in and defend you but I get sick of arguing over nothing on here sometimes but just wanted to give you a big hug x
		
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Unfortunately some people can't just *accept* things. I've never said that I agree with it as a concept - just that Totos owners and riders will have their reasons which makes the situation fairly justified! Thanks for your support and hug - don't get stuck in. Poking the angry NL bears with pointy mouse cursor is addictive....



PoppyAnderson said:



			Wow, not arrogant enough! You usually come across as a balanced and informed person but seriously, that comment is very misjudged.
		
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Think the word you're looking for is ignorant - which I will admit to. Although, I can think of at least 5 threads that have occurred in NL with at least 5 of the posters on this thread that basically disregard anything other than no rugs and 24/7 turnout as unnatural and therefore WRONG. So maybe a little ignorant in my comment - again, I'll accept that - but arrogant? Nope. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, or that my views are and have never said I am or that my views are.


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## PoppyAnderson (29 March 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Yes good idea - suppose it could be the sugary season for grass now we've some sun 

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I honestly don't think it is, as she's gone to a field which is mcuh more suitable garzing for her and poorer quality than where she was. There's hardly anything on the field. No, I think it's more about her routine, how she looked forward to human intervention previously, as it typically meant food or turnout or company. Now, it's as if she views it as an interference in her perfectly lovely free spirit lifestyle! If she was being prepared for comp, then her new found attitude may be counterproductive.


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## PoppyAnderson (29 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			Unfortunately some people can't just *accept* things. I've never said that I agree with it as a concept - just that Totos owners and riders will have their reasons which makes the situation fairly justified! Thanks for your support and hug - don't get stuck in. Poking the angry NL bears with pointy mouse cursor is addictive....



Think the word you're looking for is ignorant - which I will admit to. Although, I can think of at least 5 threads that have occurred in NL with at least 5 of the posters on this thread that basically disregard anything other than no rugs and 24/7 turnout as unnatural and therefore WRONG. So maybe a little ignorant in my comment - again, I'll accept that - but arrogant? Nope. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, or that my views are and have never said I am or that my views are.
		
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No, the word I was looking for was definitely arrogant. Your tone was patronising, as if the little people of the world ie, the Happy Hackers, wouldn't have the foggiest clue about the serious and real world of competing. Anyways, in the words of Debra Meading (or whatever she's called), I'm out.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

PoppyAnderson said:



			No, the word I was looking for was definitely arrogant. Your tone was patronising, as if the little people of the world ie, the Happy Hackers, wouldn't have the foggiest clue about the serious and real world of competing. Anyways, in the words of Debra Meading (or whatever she's called), I'm out.
		
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Hacking isn't a competition. And hacking does not require a comparable fitness regime. So, you're definitely after ignorant, because I disregarded the proportion of happy hackers (those that hack and are happy) that are well endowed in the knowledge pool of competing.

Also. It's Debra Meaden......


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## Kokopelli (29 March 2011)

PoppyAnderson said:



			No, the word I was looking for was definitely arrogant. Your tone was patronising, as if the little people of the world ie, the Happy Hackers, wouldn't have the foggiest clue about the serious and real world of competing. Anyways, in the words of Debra Meading (or whatever she's called), I'm out.
		
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I think that is the problem with the written word is you do not know the tone. Personally I don't think NM was coming across as arrogant and she seems like a nice person with useful advice. 

In all honesty what do people who only hack and only have done hacking know about proper competition? I compete at lower levels and I still don't know much about competition which is why I don't comment on things like Totilas as I don't know enough about the topic.


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## xspiralx (29 March 2011)

In all honesty what do people who only hack and only have done hacking know about proper competition? I compete at lower levels and I still don't know much about competition which is why I don't comment on things like Totilas as I don't know enough about the topic.
		
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But the point is that it is arrogant and dismissive to state that the majority of those who think no turnout is wrong are just happy hackers who have no idea about competition horses.

Just because someone has a different viewpoint doesn't mean they aren't knowledgeable, or that they aren't experienced competitors.


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## jaspejoo (29 March 2011)

well i'd love to see all of you try and bring this argument up with the owners themselves...or maybe a majority of the racing world who keep their horses in 24/7 when they are in full work?

I think there are bigger issues going on rather than toto not being turned out....


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## zefragile (29 March 2011)

xspiralx said:



			But the point is that it is arrogant and dismissive to state that the majority of those who think no turnout is wrong are just happy hackers who have no idea about competition horses.

Just because someone has a different viewpoint doesn't mean they aren't knowledgeable, or that they aren't experienced competitors.
		
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Indeed! And consider that some happy hackers may well have been competitors in the past.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

Kokopelli said:



			I think that is the problem with the written word is you do not know the tone. Personally I don't think NM was coming across as arrogant and she seems like a nice person with useful advice.
		
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I honestly do try and get across my point in a fair way. And I never try to be rude, or purposely pick on someone. Many of the people on here are older than me, and they seem to think that this, coupled with talking down to me like a child will make me shut up and think their POV is right - which is not going to happen. I will accept their POV once they accept mine. Agree to disagree etc....



xspiralx said:



			But the point is that it is arrogant and dismissive to state that the majority of those who think no turnout is wrong are just happy hackers who have no idea about competition horses.
		
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Actually. I've never said that all happy hackers think that no turnout is wrong and that all of the same people have no idea about competing horses. I've said that some people on this thread are happy hackers and that they don't know about competing. And I have stated that a number of NL posters insist on 24/7 turnout and they disagree with anything else. 

I don't think people who turn their horses out 24/7 are wrong. I don't think that people who keep their horses in 24/7 are wrong. I think that each situation is individual to the horse, the rider, the owner, the yard....etc etc and should be treated as such.

On the whole, the posters on this thread have said that it is cruel/wrong/unnatural for a horse (like Totilas) to be kept in his stable a majority of his life do so by generalizing the situation and suggesting unrealistic solutions.


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## Apercrumbie (29 March 2011)

zefragile said:



			Indeed! And consider that some happy hackers may well have been competitors in the past.
		
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This, I know lots of them. ^^^  

I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know what NM was saying - I'm sure her intentions were good.  Believe me, I understand why owners keep these competition horses in 24/7 but that doesn't mean that I think its right.  Obviously I don't think he should be kept out 24/7 either, but surely it would be nice for these horses if they had a couple of hours out every day.  It would be particularly nice for horses on the continent who have warmer weather.  Obviously, for an experienced competitor like Totilas, changing his routine after years of no turnout would not be good, but it would be nice to see a change to this culture as they are horses, not machines.


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## gugglebum (29 March 2011)

IMO its a basic animal right to be able to feel the ground under foot, the sun and rain on their back and to be able to stretch and run freely.That goes for whether you're a chicken, pig, calf or horse. But as we all know, rightly or wrongly, money makes the world go round. Its sad Toto is a victim of his own success, but to get it in perspective there are plenty of equines suffering far more.


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## xspiralx (29 March 2011)

No - you didn't say _some_, you said:

"I think you'll find that most of the people who disagree with you are happy hackers who have no concept of competition training."

You stated that the *majority* of people who hold that viewpoint are happy hackers who don't know what they're talking about.

If you meant some, then say some, not most. It changes the sentence quite significantly.


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## nikkimariet (29 March 2011)

xspiralx said:



			No - you didn't say _some_, you said:

"I think you'll find that most of the people who disagree with you are happy hackers who have no concept of competition training." If you meant some, then say some, not most. It changes the sentence quite significantly.
		
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Okay. I said most, not some....I cba to scroll back through boring page after boring page.....forgive me. I said most, hold my hands up there.




On a more light hearted note; my OH thought Totilas was a restaurant...


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## dominobrown (29 March 2011)

Yum, sounds Mexican.


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## Natch (29 March 2011)

So what have we learnt today, children?


Totilas has special shoes
Totilas doesn't get turnout
His bad feet mean he shouldn't be bred from
His bad feet are nothing to do with his breeding performance
He should have more turnout
He shouldn't have any turnout
His browband and noseband don't match
No.7 is not a major welfare problem as previously claimed
This wasn't previously claimed in a serious manner
The scenario described in no. 5 is a welfare problem
The scenario described in no. 6 is a major welfare problem
You should say what you mean
Things come across differently in the written word
Shills has a horse who is allergic to grass.


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## gugglebum (29 March 2011)

15. *Totilas*:  




			Moorlands Totilas (nicknamed "Toto") is a Dutch Warmblood stallion standing 17.1 hands (69 inches, 175 cm) high[1] who is considered to be one of the most outstanding competitive dressage horses in the world, the first horse to score above 90 in dressage competition
		
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*Tortillas*: 




			Tortilla means "little cake" in Spanish, and refers to several different foods eaten in various Spanish speaking countries and parts of the United States.
		
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## dominobrown (29 March 2011)

I love Toto, the band.


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## amandap (29 March 2011)

Lol Naturally. Doh, I think I've changed my mind...                erm number 7. Non matching nose and browband is an absolute disgrace and shouldn't be allowed in the show ring.


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## Natch (30 March 2011)

I prefer Hovis' version, Moorland Doritos!


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## tallyho! (30 March 2011)

PoppyAnderson said:



			I honestly don't think it is, as she's gone to a field which is mcuh more suitable garzing for her and poorer quality than where she was. There's hardly anything on the field. No, I think it's more about her routine, how she looked forward to human intervention previously, as it typically meant food or turnout or company. Now, it's as if she views it as an interference in her perfectly lovely free spirit lifestyle! If she was being prepared for comp, then her new found attitude may be counterproductive.
		
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Oh pardon me, I stand corrected. How observant of you, considering I wasn't even responding to your particular post.


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## tallyho! (30 March 2011)

jaspejoo said:



			well i'd love to see all of you try and bring this argument up with the owners themselves...or maybe a majority of the racing world who keep their horses in 24/7 when they are in full work?

I think there are bigger issues going on rather than toto not being turned out....
		
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Yes I think I'd have to agree.

Anyway so... has he got navicular or what?


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## EstherYoung (30 March 2011)

Dear lordie I've just waded through all of this thread.....

Re Turnout. I don't doubt for a moment that Totilas wants for nothing and that he has a number of minions primping and preening him. He's too famous for anything else. Where the welfare issue creeps in is for the horses that aren't quite as famous as Totilas - do they all get several handgrazing sessions each day and multiple work sessions too? Or do they just get stuck on the horsewalker if they're lucky? 

It is interesting looking at the differences between disciplines. There was a thread on here not long ago where some of the eventers were saying that they want their horses turned out from a young age on challenging terrain so that they toughened up and developed that innate 'horse sense' and awareness of what's under their feet that would keep them out of trouble cross country. 

I'm an endurance rider and the only endurance horses I know who are kept in 24/7 are those with issues that prevent turnout. Virtually everything else right up to international level is out either full time or part time. I need my horse's joints and ligaments to be tough and that's just not going to happen stuck in a stable - I now have a sound 25yo who won ERs when he was younger, all off a regime of living out 24/7. My thinking is that whatever fitness I was able to put into him, if he could add to that by moving around the rest of the time all well and good. My babypony that I have in the wings, he's out full time with other babyponies because I also want him to be tough, and they spend their lives climbing all over each other. On the flip side, the grey in my sig was a top level show ayrab in his day and spent his entire life between 6 months and 7 years living in. It has taken us a long time to get him properly fit as he missed out on so much physical and mental development during his formative years.

Re Heart bars. If you were looking at a stallion for your mare and a horse was brought out that was wearing heart bars, what would your reaction be? Particularly if it was a young stallion... 

Re Noseband and browband not matching. Terrible crime. The worst


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## Tinypony (30 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			It's not hoof oil. It's specific for barefoot horses I just can't remember it's name, since I'm a good 200 miles+ from home..... Anything else you want to attempt to patronize me about?...and fail? Epically?? Since when was this thread about what I put on my horses feet?? :S
		
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Calm down, I wasn't patronising you, it was meant to be a helpful comment.  You said you oiled your horses hooves, not me.


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## Amymay (30 March 2011)

Naturally said:



			So what have we learnt today, children?


Totilas has special shoes
Totilas doesn't get turnout
His bad feet mean he shouldn't be bred from
His bad feet are nothing to do with his breeding performance
He should have more turnout
He shouldn't have any turnout
His browband and noseband don't match
No.7 is not a major welfare problem as previously claimed
This wasn't previously claimed in a serious manner
The scenario described in no. 5 is a welfare problem
The scenario described in no. 6 is a major welfare problem
You should say what you mean
Things come across differently in the written word
Shills has a horse who is allergic to grass.


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You forgot the all important turnout is detrimental to muscle development....


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## mcnaughty (30 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			I think you'll find that most of the people who disagree with you are happy hackers who have no concept of competition training.
		
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You really need to get down off your high horse - I actually believe that both methods can work.  It is the people that have no idea of good horsemanship or are lacking a modicom of common sense on both sides that really get my goat - oh and those like you who are just plain arrogant.


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## ester (30 March 2011)

am still interested to know whether they get any holidays/downtime like the racing tbs?


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## FrodoBeutlin (30 March 2011)

As a general rule I don't think many top dressage horses get proper "holidays", but after big events (say, after the WEG etc) they would normally get a few weeks of very light work.


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## ester (30 March 2011)

thanks FB . I just thought it might put a different spin on things if they did!


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## Nocturnal (30 March 2011)

amymay said:



			You forgot the all important turnout is detrimental to muscle development....

Click to expand...

A quick HHO search shows I'm not the only one who's noticed that horses muscle up better without turnout...
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=439083


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## AshTay (30 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			A quick HHO search shows I'm not the only one who's noticed that horses muscle up better without turnout...
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=439083

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But all those people on that thread did loads of things with their horses everyday when they were in - half hour walker, hour ridden, massage, etc. No wonder they muscled up well and were working nicely - it would be worrying if they weren't! As someone pointed out -if they had turnout as well would they be even better?!?

And in my humble opinion, how well a horse behaves during turnout all comes down to routine. If they have the same routine everyday and know what to expect they're settled and happy. If they stay in all week and only go out at weekends or for the odd day here and there then of course you're risking injury. If you always feed your horse when you bring it in then of course it's going to hang around the gate wanting to come in! At the same time, a horse that is constantly in adapts to that routine and will appear happy.


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## tallyho! (30 March 2011)

Anyone fancy a coffee and some soldiers and eggs??


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## ForeverBroke_ (30 March 2011)

Having just waded my way through this, yes please tallyho!

I don't understand how you can assume that happy hackers know nothing/little about competing. Its not rocket science, and just because they hack doesn't mean they dont have any common sense/ability to understand something different. 

 This thread has got to be the thinnest argument I've read for a while..


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## Nocturnal (30 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			But all those people on that thread did loads of things with their horses everyday when they were in - half hour walker, hour ridden, massage, etc. No wonder they muscled up well and were working nicely - it would be worrying if they weren't! As someone pointed out -if they had turnout as well would they be even better?!?
		
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Yes, and Totilas gets all that too... obviously that would be necessary for a horse that's not turned out . I don't see what turnout could add to the horse's musculature and willingness to work.



AshTay said:



			And in my humble opinion, how well a horse behaves during turnout all comes down to routine. If they have the same routine everyday and know what to expect they're settled and happy. If they stay in all week and only go out at weekends or for the odd day here and there then of course you're risking injury. If you always feed your horse when you bring it in then of course it's going to hang around the gate wanting to come in!
		
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Not sure what this relates to - nothing I've said, I'm sure. Either way, I maintain that it's pure blindness to believe that you know how every horse will behave in a given circumstance. Horses are individuals.



AshTay said:



			At the same time, a horse that is constantly in adapts to that routine and will appear happy.
		
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If they're happy, then what's the problem?


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## Nocturnal (30 March 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Anyone fancy a coffee and some soldiers and eggs??
		
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Can I have tea instead?


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## Serenity087 (30 March 2011)

Can I just say...

Poor thing has the most rediculous looking bridle EVER!  No wonder he spends all day inside, he's ashamed of the thing!! That noseband is too thick and WHAT is that browband? Looks like something from the Katie Price range...


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## charlie76 (30 March 2011)

That was my thread and I still stand by what I say. My horse ( who is still in) 12 weeks later, if a different horse to what he was. He looks better, his has a better attitude and oddly enough is far less reactive and spooky then he ever was when he was out. 
As I said, it is hard work though.
With regards to routine, I had this conversation with some one this morning who commented on how happy my horse seemed even though he was in all the time. I told them a horse is happy with routine, whether that routine is in or out in irrelevant, its the routine that stops the stress.


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## ThePony (30 March 2011)

On the turnout being detrimental to muscle build up - I wonder if that is because schooling sessions can be thought of as being more similar to weights sessions, with turnout/longer hacks etc having more areobic exercise. In that case I would expect a horse who has a routine made up of predominantly schooling and stable rest to be more (not better!) muscled than an equivalent horse that has schooling sessions and turnout. Perhaps like the difference between weight lifters and marathon runners?!

I know I don't have the exercise physiology knowledge to have a well developed theory, but I do wonder if the vauge reason above could have something to do with this idea of turnout being detrimental to some horses development - depending on what the aim of their development is? Hence those that are working horses for eventing/endurance which places a greater emphasis on areobic fitness than eg dressage which relys more on strength and balance and much practise of certain movements.

(before I am totally lynched I am not saying one horse has more desirable fitness than the other, more fitness for a particular career!).


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## AshTay (30 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Yes, and Totilas gets all that too... obviously that would be necessary for a horse that's not turned out . I don't see what turnout could add to the horse's musculature and willingness to work.
		
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Your argument was that turnout was detrimental to the correct muscle development. All that the thread you posted supported was that horses being kept in could achieve good muscle development but having read that thread I would say that it had nothing to do with no turnout and everything to do with being worked more!



Nocturnal said:



			Not sure what this relates to - nothing I've said, I'm sure. Either way, I maintain that it's pure blindness to believe that you know how every horse will behave in a given circumstance. Horses are individuals.
?
		
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It relates to the thread you posted and this thread - my opinion based on my experience of why some (not all!) horses either appear to dislike turnout or to behave dangerously when turned out. 

I don't claim to know how every horse will behave in a given circumstance anymore than you are claiming to know that keeping in leads to better muscle development for every horse!! 

But I will argue that all horses should be given the right for some turnout in a way that suits them as an individual horse.




Nocturnal said:



			If they're happy, then what's the problem?
		
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"Appears" to be happy. I'll accept that it's all relative and if a horse has never known turnout then it doesn't know what it's missing and if every other aspect of it's care is top notch then great. But that, to me, still doesn't make it right!!!


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## Nocturnal (30 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			Your argument was that turnout was detrimental to the correct muscle development. All that the thread you posted supported was that horses being kept in could achieve good muscle development but having read that thread I would say that it had nothing to do with no turnout and everything to do with being worked more
		
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They aren't worked more, though. They're worked the same, but taken out for hand grazing etc. My argument was that horses kept in muscle up better than ones turned out. Its what I've personally observed, and some other people have too.



AshTay said:



			It relates to the thread you posted and this thread - my opinion based on my experience of why some (not all!) horses either appear to dislike turnout or to behave dangerously when turned out. 

I don't claim to know how every horse will behave in a given circumstance anymore than you are claiming to know that keeping in leads to better muscle development for every horse!! 

But I will argue that all horses should be given the right for some turnout in a way that suits them as an individual horse.
		
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Muscle development is a matter of biochemistry which reacts in the same or very similar way in every horse... a horse's psychological reaction to turn out is not like this. Your argument for turnout for every horse seems to be based on your own personal preferance. That's fine for you, but I think its unreasonable to argue in favour of imposing your views on everybody else.



AshTay said:



			"Appears" to be happy. I'll accept that it's all relative and if a horse has never known turnout then it doesn't know what it's missing and if every other aspect of it's care is top notch then great. But that, to me, still doesn't make it right!!!
		
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My horse goes out in a herd from 8am-6pm every day, so has a lot of experience of turnout. He 'appears' perfectly happy if kept in. Why should I not believe what I see? Horses don't purposefully decieve us, if he was unhappy I'm sure I would see *some* kind of sign.


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## Amymay (30 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			But all those people on that thread did loads of things with their horses everyday when they were in - half hour walker, hour ridden, massage, etc. No wonder they muscled up well and were working nicely - it would be worrying if they weren't! As someone pointed out -if they had turnout as well would they be even better?!?

And in my humble opinion, how well a horse behaves during turnout all comes down to routine. If they have the same routine everyday and know what to expect they're settled and happy. If they stay in all week and only go out at weekends or for the odd day here and there then of course you're risking injury. If you always feed your horse when you bring it in then of course it's going to hang around the gate wanting to come in! At the same time, a horse that is constantly in adapts to that routine and will appear happy.
		
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Can't add anything to this intelligent reply.


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## AshTay (30 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Muscle development is a matter of biochemistry which reacts in the same or very similar way in every horse... a horse's psychological reaction to turn out is not like this. Your argument for turnout for every horse seems to be based on your own personal preferance. That's fine for you, but I think its unreasonable to argue in favour of imposing your views on everybody else.
		
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Actually that's not true at all. Yes, it's a matter of biochemistry but it's totally wrong to say that's the same for every horse. Genetically, they're all slightly different which has an effect even at this level. Why do some horses pile on fat at the mere sight of grass while others struggle to maintain weight? It might not be as much as variation in the psychological reactions but it's still enough to mean that YOU can't generalise either.

It's not MY personal preference. If you actually read what i've said in previous posts MY personal preference is that every horse is given the option of turnout in a way that suits them and that they are treated in a way that is best for THEM, not compromised because they're deemed too valuable to be allowed to do anything else!




Nocturnal said:



			My horse goes out in a herd from 8am-6pm every day, so has a lot of experience of turnout. He 'appears' perfectly happy if kept in. Why should I not believe what I see? Horses don't purposefully decieve us, if he was unhappy I'm sure I would see *some* kind of sign.
		
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You're contradicting yourself! Your horse goes out everyday you say. But when he's kept in he appears happy - when do you keep him in?? You're not making much sense there. If what you mean is that he gets "holidays" where he gets regular turnout but is kept in when he's being prepared for competition then to me that's fine. It's the "no turnout ever" that I disagree with.


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## Jimbol (30 March 2011)

Horses by nature are claustrophobic, this can be altered but that nature is always there, they are also social but we deprive this and the natural behaviour changes.

We can also look at Nevzarov and his isolation of horses in order to create a dependance on him, although he hates bits he sees the nature of horses as primitive and counter productive.

A horse who cannot socialise or cope with open spaces (without restraint) is suffering some kind of mental abnormality and this should be addressed. We all make excuses to justify the compromises we make for our horses, but rather than justify them we should do our best to eliminate them. 

A number of the main issues withn equine health are production diseases such as colic, laminitis etc... and sports injuries, there is plenty of evidence that to allow your horse a life that is closer to their nature will lead to a happier healthier horse who is likely to live longer.


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## Nocturnal (30 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			Actually that's not true at all. Yes, it's a matter of biochemistry but it's totally wrong to say that's the same for every horse. Genetically, they're all slightly different which has an effect even at this level. Why do some horses pile on fat at the mere sight of grass while others struggle to maintain weight? It might not be as much as variation in the psychological reactions but it's still enough to mean that YOU can't generalise either.

It's not MY personal preference. If you actually read what i've said in previous posts MY personal preference is that every horse is given the option of turnout in a way that suits them and that they are treated in a way that is best for THEM, not compromised because they're deemed too valuable to be allowed to do anything else!
		
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Fat storage and muscle development are quite different. All horses lay on muscle in the same or *very similar* (as stated in original post) way. This is science that can be generalised on.

If the horses in question are happy with their routine, who are you to impose your values on their owners? If the horses aren't happy unless turned out, then yes - they should be turned out. But if they can be happy and healthy with no turn out then I fail to see the major welfare issue.



AshTay said:



			You're contradicting yourself! Your horse goes out everyday you say. But when he's kept in he appears happy - when do you keep him in?? You're not making much sense there. If what you mean is that he gets "holidays" where he gets regular turnout but is kept in when he's being prepared for competition then to me that's fine. It's the "no turnout ever" that I disagree with.
		
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I am not contradicting myself. My horse's routine is to be turned out daily at 8am in a herd. There are times, of course, that he has to be kept in. Whether that be for physical reasons or because of the weather.


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## AshTay (30 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Fat storage and muscle development are quite different. All horses lay on muscle in the same or *very similar* (as stated in original post) way. This is science that can be generalised on.

If the horses in question are happy with their routine, who are you to impose your values on their owners? If the horses aren't happy unless turned out, then yes - they should be turned out. But if they can be happy and healthy with no turn out then I fail to see the major welfare issue.

I am not contradicting myself. My horse's routine is to be turned out daily at 8am in a herd. There are times, of course, that he has to be kept in. Whether that be for physical reasons or because of the weather.
		
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I give up. For the record I still totally disagree with you (although you still don't seem able to see my point) but this is going round in circles or like arguing with a lamp post.


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## Nocturnal (30 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			I give up. For the record I still totally disagree with you (although you still don't seem able to see my point) but this is going round in circles or like arguing with a lamp post.
		
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Agreed. Some people just can't accept that their way is not the only way.


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## FanyDuChamp (30 March 2011)

Spudlet said:



			Yes, there are some horses that prefer to be in, but they are few and far between. And I suspect most of them are simply institutionalised - in fact, I'd go so far as to say mentally ill in some cases.
		
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I know you said "some cases" but I think it is more about horses being treated as individuals.My lad is permanently in between end of Sept and end of April/beginning of May. He is NOT mentally ill he is a woss who hates the rain, windy or temperatures below 60 degrees.If we put him out he brings himself in jumping the fence or taking the gate off and goes back to his stable. He makes his own choice in this instance. 

ETA Fany is out as much as possible because that is what suits her. Suit the horse not money or convenience 
FDC


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## amandap (30 March 2011)

Jimbol said:



			Horses by nature are claustrophobic, this can be altered but that nature is always there, they are also social but we deprive this and the natural behaviour changes.

We can also look at Nevzarov and his isolation of horses in order to create a dependance on him, although he hates bits he sees the nature of horses as primitive and counter productive.

A horse who cannot socialise or cope with open spaces (without restraint) is suffering some kind of mental abnormality and this should be addressed. We all make excuses to justify the compromises we make for our horses, but rather than justify them we should do our best to eliminate them. 

A number of the main issues withn equine health are production diseases such as colic, laminitis etc... and sports injuries, there is plenty of evidence that to allow your horse a life that is closer to their nature will lead to a happier healthier horse who is likely to live longer.
		
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Agree with this. Never thought of the Nevzorov angle but creating a dependence is obvious now you've pointed that out. 
Instituionalization mentioned earlier in the thread is another important aspect of 'control' imo.


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## charlie76 (30 March 2011)

Come on guys, surely the sensible answer is that each horse has a different personality so different needs. Some are happy to be in all the time and some are happy to be out. So each to their own.
We had a horse on livery that was agrophobic, if you turned him out and panic and jump over or through a fence to come in. Surely no one thinks we should have forced this horse to stay out as it was 'natural' for him?


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## Jimbol (30 March 2011)

Fany Du Champ said:



			I know you said "some cases" but I think it is more about horses being treated as individuals.My lad is permanently in between end of Sept and end of April/beginning of May. He is NOT mentally ill he is a woss who hates the rain, windy or temperatures below 60 degrees.If we put him out he brings himself in jumping the fence or taking the gate off and goes back to his stable. He makes his own choice in this instance. 

FDC
		
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In this case it seems your pony likes to be out though fusses about weather, but he goes out when it suits, what would be interesting is how he would behave in a field with a good shelter, so he could choose to go in or out and how he would behave then.

I used to work with a former cossack stallion who used to behavbe like this in rain, you could spend large periods of time stuck under a tree if you were caught in the rain. over time however he decided grass was worth getting wet for and is fine with it, in the Ukrain he would not often have seen rain as they had a fully sheltered complex.


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## AshTay (30 March 2011)

charlie76 said:



			Come on guys, surely the sensible answer is that each horse has a different personality so different needs. Some are happy to be in all the time and some are happy to be out. So each to their own.
We had a horse on livery that was agrophobic, if you turned him out and panic and jump over or through a fence to come in. Surely no one thinks we should have forced this horse to stay out as it was 'natural' for him?
		
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I agree with this. But I do think it's short sighted to think that some horses are just happy to be in. If they don't know anything different then of course they appear happy. As I mentioned before we also have a horse on our yard like this - he doesn't get turned out. But it's wrong that he's ended up like this (because he wasn't given the option of turnout until he was in his teens and then it blew his brains) and THAT is the issue. 

Given how much of an effect on horses our influence has, it's surely very naive to think that some horses just grow up to detest turnout. (And I'm sure someone will now drag up their own example of an agoraphobic foal...).


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## Jimbol (30 March 2011)

yes a foal will not be born agropobic, that is the result of human intervention, why do people not realise this, plus there are many related health issues regarding stabled horses which do not occur with horses on turnout.

I do not like factory farming so i certainly do not like factory kept horses... i mean those battery hens know no better, or inddor pigs, maybe all those kids in china making trainers in sweatshops are happy, or african diamond miners, who are we to say it is wrong?!?!?!


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## RunToEarth (30 March 2011)

Just fancied adding my opinion to this lovely thread. 
I used to work for a big name showjumper when I was at 6th form. Their horses were in 24/7 and were miserable. That said, they were self destructing in the field, and for horses kept exclusively for profit and competition, having them out was simply not an option as their head wouldn't be in the game. 
I would personally never keep my horses in 24/7- but then my horses are hunters and worth comparatively little to anyone but me, and MY horses are better for their turn out, which is 24/7 during the summer, and 7 hours a day when they are stabled. 
I find this thread has got pretty ugly, people will have different opinions on the matter, and as there are only a very small proportion of riders on this forum "big enough" to be in the competition melting pot, really it is just a lot of women with handbags at dawn...


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## FanyDuChamp (30 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			I agree with this. But I do think it's short sighted to think that some horses are just happy to be in. If they don't know anything different then of course they appear happy. As I mentioned before we also have a horse on our yard like this - he doesn't get turned out. But it's wrong that he's ended up like this (because he wasn't given the option of turnout until he was in his teens and then it blew his brains) and THAT is the issue. 

Given how much of an effect on horses our influence has, it's surely very naive to think that some horses just grow up to detest turnout. (And I'm sure someone will now drag up their own example of an agoraphobic foal...).
		
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My lad does not do turnout in winter but is out 24/7 in summer. So how is that a mental issue? He does not have agoraphobia, he is not insecure in the field, he is not institutionalised. He hates bad weather and likes his creature comforts. He is an intelligent being and has expressed his opinions clearly. Why is that a problem? Surely he does not have to conform because it is what other horses prefer? Surely he is entitled to make choices?

There are many horses who prefer the warmth of their stables, especially the kind of stable my lad has. 20 x 16 stable, friends either side, no solid walls, who he can easily interact with and no rain. Captain's idea of winter heaven!

I don't know about agoraphobic foals but I am open minded enough to want my horse to be happy and secure, so suit his turn out to his choices. Just as I do my mare.

 Some horses do not want turnout, accept it; it does not mean they have "issues" sometimes it might just mean they know their own minds and are secure enough to express it. If no/ limited turnout  is the horse's preference then the caring owner has to try to accommodate  its wishes. 

FDC


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## Nocturnal (30 March 2011)

charlie76 said:



			Come on guys, surely the sensible answer is that each horse has a different personality so different needs. Some are happy to be in all the time and some are happy to be out. So each to their own.
We had a horse on livery that was agrophobic, if you turned him out and panic and jump over or through a fence to come in. Surely no one thinks we should have forced this horse to stay out as it was 'natural' for him?
		
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Precisely this.

I just can't understand why some people refuse to accept that a horse can be happy if its kept in.

On my yard there are 8 horses:

Mine - likes going out (for the social aspect; wouldn't be bothered if turnout was individual), but happy to stay in.

One is as happy in as out (and often prefers being in). Another is a complete unhandleable fruit loop if out 24/7, but the sweetest thing if kept in. The rest are raring to get out in the morning, and lingering around the gate in the evening.

All horses are different, and some are happy to stay in. Its not that they don't know any different, its just their preference. What is so hard to accept about this?


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## AshTay (30 March 2011)

Fany Du Champ said:



			My lad does not do turnout in winter but is out 24/7 in summer. So how is that a mental issue? He does not have agoraphobia, he is not insecure in the field, he is not institutionalised. He hates bad weather and likes his creature comforts. He is an intelligent being and has expressed his opinions clearly. Why is that a problem? Surely he does not have to conform because it is what other horses prefer? Surely he is entitled to make choices?

There are many horses who prefer the warmth of their stables, especially the kind of stable my lad has. 20 x 16 stable, friends either side, no solid walls, who he can easily interact with and no rain. Captain's idea of winter heaven!

I don't know about agoraphobic foals but I am open minded enough to want my horse to be happy and secure, so suit his turn out to his choices. Just as I do my mare.

 Some horses do not want turnout, accept it; it does not mean they have "issues" sometimes it might just mean they know their own minds and are secure enough to express it. If no/ limited turnout  is the horse's preference then the caring owner has to try to accommodate  its wishes. 

FDC
		
Click to expand...


<bangs head against wall> Your horse has the choice. He's not scared of turnout because he doesn't know what it is. Although if I were being bloody minded (which I'm not) I could suggest that maybe your horse's dislike of rain stems from being left out in it unprotected in the past?!! Or that he know's he'll get fed more in the winter so chooses to just stay in the stable where the food is and cut out the bother of going to/from the field and it just so happens that that also means he won't have to stand out in the nasty rain (do you have a field shelter btw?)!! 

What I'm trying to say (and have said) is that ALL horses should have the option of turnout in a way that suits them. Be that a couple of hours or more a day to stretch legs and have a roll, a "holiday" period of turnout at the end of the season or 24/7 turnout all year round.


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## Natch (30 March 2011)

Jimbol said:



			We can also look at Nevzarov and his isolation of horses in order to create a dependance on him, although he hates bits he sees the nature of horses as primitive and counter productive.
		
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Ooh can you tell me more about Nevzarov? I know of his aversion to bits and people riding horses (and recent petition to stop all horse sport) but didn't know his training methods include isolation of horses!



amymay said:



			You forgot the all important turnout is detrimental to muscle development....

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My bad. Will ammend. 



Nocturnal said:



			A quick HHO search shows I'm not the only one who's noticed that horses muscle up better without turnout...
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=439083

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Forgive me I'm supposed to be doing something else and not on HHO, so I won't take the time to read the link just now. One could argue some more about why muscles appear bulkier when a horse is kept in, but I'll bow out of any more debates on this thread now.

Learnings to date (for the lazy people who don't want to read the whole thread)


Totilas has special shoes
Totilas doesn't get turnout
His bad feet mean he shouldn't be bred from
His bad feet are nothing to do with his breeding performance
He should have more turnout
He shouldn't have any turnout
His browband and noseband don't match
No.7 is not a major welfare problem as previously claimed
This wasn't previously claimed in a serious manner
Actually, thinking about it, it is a terrible tragedy
The scenario described in no. 5 is a welfare problem
The scenario described in no. 6 is a major welfare problem
You should say what you mean
Things come across differently in the written word
Shills has a horse who is allergic to grass.
 muscles develop better when your horse is kept in a stable 
muscles develop better when your horse is kept out
The longer a thread gets the more likely it is that people make a point already made, and therefore the longer a thread gets the proportion of additional useful material diminisies
People _STILL_ won't be told, darn it
Anyone who disagrees is an anarchist/fluffy bunny hugger/ cruel and terrible person (delete as appropriate)
According to Bodwins law, its only a matter of time before Hitler and the Nazis is mentioned.


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## martlin (30 March 2011)

Naturally said:



			[*]According to Bodwins law, its only a matter of time before Hitler and the Nazis is mentioned.
[/LIST]
		
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I think we can replace Hitler/Nazis with Nevzorov for the purpose of horsey debate  When I saw him mentioned in one of the posts, I thought ''that's it, it can't get any better now''... I mean, the man is a total fruit loop, why would anybody want to refer to him?


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## FanyDuChamp (30 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			<bangs head against wall> 
Please continue, you may knock some sense in and that will enable you to read properly


Your horse has the choice. He's not scared of turnout because he doesn't know what it is.
24/ 7 turnout in summer, he knows what it is and makes his own choices.

 Although if I were being bloody minded (which I'm not) 
Really?
I could suggest that maybe your horse's dislike of rain stems from being left out in it unprotected in the past?!! Or that he know's he'll get fed more in the winter so chooses to just stay in the stable where the food is and cut out the bother of going to/from the field and it just so happens that that also means he won't have to stand out in the nasty rain (do you have a field shelter btw?)!! 
Yes there is shelter, he has plenty of haylage in the field and he is always rugged in winter, he is a WB and feels the cold.

What I'm trying to say (and have said) is that ALL horses should have the option of turnout in a way that suits them. 
So we agree, what suits them not what suits people on a forum think is best for your horse, be it a famous one or a pet one

Be that a couple of hours or more a day to stretch legs and have a roll, a "holiday" period of turnout at the end of the season or 24/7 turnout all year round.
		
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Some horses don't want to go out, live with it! My lad gets his exercise in the indoor arena and then would happily gallop back to his stable if allowed, not even a sideways glance at the fields and his friends who are out. 

FDC


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## amandap (30 March 2011)

Nevzorov. A strange man imo. I use his photos for impact about abuse/misuse of bits. He is into domination as far as I can see and even wears the leathers to go with it. So is a strange mix and has evolved to be anti bit, saddles and even riding I believe. 
I have searched and searched for the scientific study he sights about blood supply being hampered under saddle and girth within 10 (or is it 20?) minutes but haven't been able to find it.
I will be interested in Jimbols take on him too.


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## amandap (30 March 2011)

martlin said:



			I think we can replace Hitler/Nazis with Nevzorov for the purpose of horsey debate 

Click to expand...

Haha! I meant to say this as well.


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## martlin (30 March 2011)

Did you know that Nevzorov, with the idea of banning riding, has decided to teach the horses to read Latin instead? *snort*


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## Jimbol (30 March 2011)

martlin said:



			I think we can replace Hitler/Nazis with Nevzorov for the purpose of horsey debate  When I saw him mentioned in one of the posts, I thought ''that's it, it can't get any better now''... I mean, the man is a total fruit loop, why would anybody want to refer to him?
		
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Nevzarov offers an interesting case in this concept, he demonstrates the foundation of most ignorance towards animals; anthropromorphism.

At the end of the day they are horses, amnd what given the choice do horses do? unless of course we decide to make them do something else (which in fairness is the main reason why we own them). 

you cannot improve on nature but you sure as hell can destroy it.


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## amandap (30 March 2011)

martlin said:



			Did you know that Nevzorov, with the idea of banning riding, has decided to teach the horses to read Latin instead? *snort* 

Click to expand...

Lol!   Tut, he could at least teach them something practical like mucking out or to poo in one place. 

Second Jimbol's statement about nature.


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## Nocturnal (30 March 2011)

martlin said:



			Did you know that Nevzorov, with the idea of banning riding, has decided to teach the horses to read Latin instead? *snort* 

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Can his horses already read English, then??


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## Jimbol (30 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:








Can his horses already read English, then??
		
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no russian.


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## Jimbol (30 March 2011)

that is why he does not like bits, it effect pronounciation.


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## martlin (30 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:








Can his horses already read English, then??
		
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I'm sure he will move on to English in due course, he does things properly, you know - an allround education, with Latin being the foundation, other languages will follow 
Not sure what his take on the queen of all sciences, the mathematics, is


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## AshTay (30 March 2011)

FDC - sorry, just re-read a bit of what I wrote and it didn't come across how it was meant...
"Your horse has the choice. He's not scared of turnout because he doesn't know what it is."

I didn't mean he's not scared of turnout because he's never had turnout (he has!), I meant the reason he chooses to stay in isn't because he's scared of the unknown (turnout). A horse that has never been out would be scared of being out but yours knows what turnout is and chooses to stay in. If that makes sense.

And there's no need to be rude. You say we agree on the point that all horses should have turnout if it suits them at the same time slating me for saying that I think all horses should have the option of turnout THAT SUITS THEM. What I totally disagree with is NEVER BEING GIVEN THAT OPTION!!!


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## amandap (30 March 2011)

Jimbol said:



			that is why he does not like bits, it effect pronounciation.
		
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Apologies now for being flippant but... ROFL!


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## Nocturnal (30 March 2011)

martlin said:



			I'm sure he will move on to English in due course, he does things properly, you know - an allround education, with Latin being the foundation, other languages will follow 
Not sure what his take on the queen of all sciences, the mathematics, is 

Click to expand...

 I'm sure he'll move on to that in due course!

Perhaps he also gives his horses menus so they have an option on what they have for dinner??


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## FanyDuChamp (30 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Perhaps he also gives his horses menus so they have an option on what they have for dinner?? 

Click to expand...

You mean you don't already? 

FDC


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## martlin (30 March 2011)

Jimbol said:



			that is why he does not like bits, it effect pronounciation.
		
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That, and it makes half of their head drop off...


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## glitterbug (30 March 2011)

I believe that horses should be turned out where possible, I also have read that they have tried to turn Totilas out in the past and he proved a danger to himself by going berserk so now they don't, he is just hand grazed.
In breeding competition horses over many years I also think we have changed their behavior to a certain extent as we constantly breed from the ones that suit our purpose best (and not necessarily the ones with the quietist teperament) and lets face it a top competition horse is not always the easist to handle and most people couldn't ride one side of them.
To an extent 'horses for courses' and its a shame they will not all plod to the field happily, but to say not turning them out is cruel is I think a little harsh, after all if you say put Totilas in the field and he injured his tendons badly where would he end up? on box rest for months with no work and even less time out of his stable!


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## Jimbol (30 March 2011)

At darley stud they learnt to turn the broodmares out first in their paddocks in a round pen, and then introduce them to larger spaces... so if it works for racehorses i am sure it could work for Totilas and horses like him, just takes a little thought.


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## nikkimariet (30 March 2011)

glitterbug said:



			I believe that horses should be turned out where possible, I also have read that they have tried to turn Totilas out in the past and he proved a danger to himself by going berserk so now they don't, he is just hand grazed.

To an extent 'horses for courses' and its a shame they will not all plod to the field happily, but to say not turning them out is cruel is I think a little harsh, after all if you say put Totilas in the field and he injured his tendons badly where would he end up? on box rest for months with no work and even less time out of his stable! 

Click to expand...

Both these factors I already pointed out and have since been called rude, arrogant, a knob and a few other things. I truly wouldn't bother if I were you; none of these lot can agree to disagree because someone* has *to be right.....

*wanders back off to the sane haven of CR*


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## BBP (30 March 2011)

I wonder if I am the only geek who has been searching through the scientific journals for studies on the effect of turnout on muscle development in horses (as a personal trainer I couldn't answer it, so had to look!  I understood that Nocturnals thought was partly that the horse would not get the right kind of rest to allow the muscles to recover and develop, although I stand to be corrected).  

In humans, what is detrimental to muscle building or maintenance is insufficient rest, however, this would mean say weight training at a high weight on successive days, without a rest day in between...perhaps the same as asking a horse to perform passage day after day when he is just learning the movement.  Low level exercise, or training a different muscle group is what is recommended here, rather than complete rest, plus ensuring the body is correctly fuelled with sufficient protein and carbohydrate to rebuild the damaged muscle fibres (in humans, too little carbs and the body starts to metabolise muscle tissue as an alternative fuel source to glycogen, leading to a reduction in muscle tissue and an increase in acidity in the blood - hence the atkins diet being terrible for you!).

I found a study today that stated that in groups of TBs tested who were galloped twice a week, their rate of glycogen recovery was not affected either by walking or cantering on their non-galloping days, so the extra exercise given by turnout should not negatively affect muscle development as they are not reducing the glycogen available to the horse.  It also focuses on different muscle groups to those required for advanced dressage so should not affect the rest that the big 'collecting' muscles get.

I'm still looking though as Nocturnal got me thinking!  (and I know it's irrelevant, but mine is turned out, so was the Badminton and Burghley horse I groomed for, and the 500,000GPB show horses that I groomed for in America - if we couldn't get them out we would let them have a blast in the arena, but all my employers have been pretty chilled out about their horses.)


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## siennamum (30 March 2011)

In terms of muscular development, I suspect it is more that horses may develop muscles which are undesirable, under their necks for instance, because they might stand to attention and look at stuff. They may also learn to move in a more economic and less desirable way, as they charge about balancing themselves naturally. They may get grass glands, or in some way be prevented from rollkur, they might become placid and amenable rather than highly charged and explosive.


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## Nocturnal (30 March 2011)

KatPT - Yes, that was one of the causes I suspected was behind the effect that I've noticed, also I think with elements siennamum has described. I'm theorising about an effect I've already noticed in practice (and some other people I know have too) rather than just postulating about possible effects of reduced turnout.


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## amandap (30 March 2011)

siennamum said:



			In terms of muscular development, I suspect it is more that horses may develop muscles which are undesirable, under their necks for instance, because they might stand to attention and look at stuff. They may also learn to move in a more economic and less desirable way, as they charge about balancing themselves naturally. They may get grass glands, or in some way be prevented from rollkur, they might become placid and amenable rather than highly charged and explosive.
		
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 All good for us humans who want a particular 'look'. 

Interesting about the tb studies.


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## martlin (30 March 2011)

I don't really want to get into the turn out/ no turnout debate TBH, but there is one thing fairly obvious to me that seems not to have been mentioned:

horses are naturally designed to carry most of their weight at the front, what we call on the forehand - it is us who teach them to shift their weight and balance behind and sit them on their hocks, so I can quite easily see how freedom and prolonged turnout can be detrimental to horse's way of going and its musculature.


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## charlie76 (30 March 2011)

Ok, after reading ( trawling) through all this thread I have come to one conclusion - the owners of Totilas, for their own reasons, do not want to turn him out- thats their choice, the horse looks happy, the horse does his job, the horse is a worldbeater, the horse is shiny, the horse has good muscle developement, the horse has a good attitude, the horse is the one of the most sort after stallions in the world- hmmm- can't be doing to much wrong!
Hands up who owns one of the above?

Might not suit everyones needs and ideas but its def working for him!


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## lexiedhb (30 March 2011)

Me me i do!

Oh wait, that was juat in my head!


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## Jimbol (30 March 2011)

Well apart from piaffe, levade and halt i do not believe the horse actually does transfer weight onto the haunches, i believe the horse creates more thrust therefore lightening the forehand but the transfer of weight is an old misconception.

As for whether turnout is detrimental to this? i would say the issues with sterrotypies and colic are of far greater concern.


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## Nocturnal (30 March 2011)

martlin said:



			I don't really want to get into the turn out/ no turnout debate TBH, but there is one thing fairly obvious to me that seems not to have been mentioned:

horses are naturally designed to carry most of their weight at the front, what we call on the forehand - it is us who teach them to shift their weight and balance behind and sit them on their hocks, so I can quite easily see how freedom and prolonged turnout can be detrimental to horse's way of going and its musculature.
		
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Yes, I think this is part of it too.


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## BBP (30 March 2011)

Mine is shiny.

Good point made by martlin, hadn't thought of that.


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## Jimbol (30 March 2011)

And on that basis the horse should not move without supervision on risk of him coming onto the forehand!?!?!? If this is what it takes to produce a top dressage horse there is a serious problem.

I think in terms of musculature we perhaps need to think of recovery and relaxation of the muscles as a benefit of being out, although i think the greatest benefit is to the mental wellbeing of the horse.


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## martlin (30 March 2011)

I think it would be nice of you to take note of the word *prolonged* in my previous post. Also, I have no intention of arguing the point one way or the other, it was merely an observation.


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## TGM (30 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			Both these factors I already pointed out and have since been called rude, arrogant, a knob and a few other things. I truly wouldn't bother if I were you; none of these lot can agree to disagree because someone* has *to be right.....

*wanders back off to the sane haven of CR*
		
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Have you heard the saying "It is not what you say but the way that you say it"?  I think that applies to your postings on this thread and explains why you got the reactions you did!


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## Seahorse (30 March 2011)

well I hope the owners of Totilas are reading this and start turning him out now.....


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## martlin (30 March 2011)

Seahorse said:



			well I hope the owners of Totilas are reading this and start turning him out now.....
		
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immediately, if not sooner...


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## charlie76 (30 March 2011)

Just emailed them to make sure they take immediate action, oh and to make sure he is not wearing boots!


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## amandap (30 March 2011)

Jimbol said:



			And on that basis the horse should not move without supervision on risk of him coming onto the forehand!?!?!? If this is what it takes to produce a top dressage horse there is a serious problem.

I think in terms of musculature we perhaps need to think of recovery and relaxation of the muscles as a benefit of being out, although i think the greatest benefit is to the mental wellbeing of the horse.
		
Click to expand...

Paragraph 1 is I think where some owners/trainers are heading but in all management.

The mental and overall physical wellbeing of the horse is the prime concern of everyone I'm sure. The difficulty comes when we don't agree with what that is and how to achieve it. 

For me personally anything that severely restricts a 'normal' lifestyle is something that should be assessed very carefully and we should be asking if we are crossing that line between our wants and the horses needs too much to the detriment of the horse. 
Also we all have our own perception of a 'happy' horse, much of it based on our personal experiences and the horsey culture we move in. We become accustomed to seeing a horse one way and other ways seem abnormal to us.

We must try and remember in the middle of all this is a living breathing sentient being that has very different needs from us.


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## FrodoBeutlin (30 March 2011)

amandap said:



			Also we all have our own perception of a 'happy' horse, much of it based on our personal experiences and the horsey culture we move in. We become accustomed to seeing a horse one way and other ways seem abnormal to us.
		
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This... if you had grown up in a country where paddocks quite simply do not exist and no horse is turned out, ever, then whether Toto is or isn't turned out wouldn't even cross your mind 

ETS general "you", not you personally amandap!


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## misst (30 March 2011)

Naturally said:



			Ooh can you tell me more about Nevzarov? I know of his aversion to bits and people riding horses (and recent petition to stop all horse sport) but didn't know his training methods include isolation of horses!



My bad. Will ammend. 



Forgive me I'm supposed to be doing something else and not on HHO, so I won't take the time to read the link just now. One could argue some more about why muscles appear bulkier when a horse is kept in, but I'll bow out of any more debates on this thread now.

Learnings to date (for the lazy people who don't want to read the whole thread)


Totilas has special shoes
Totilas doesn't get turnout
His bad feet mean he shouldn't be bred from
His bad feet are nothing to do with his breeding performance
He should have more turnout
He shouldn't have any turnout
His browband and noseband don't match
No.7 is not a major welfare problem as previously claimed
This wasn't previously claimed in a serious manner
Actually, thinking about it, it is a terrible tragedy
The scenario described in no. 5 is a welfare problem
The scenario described in no. 6 is a major welfare problem
You should say what you mean
Things come across differently in the written word
Shills has a horse who is allergic to grass.
 muscles develop better when your horse is kept in a stable 
muscles develop better when your horse is kept out
The longer a thread gets the more likely it is that people make a point already made, and therefore the longer a thread gets the proportion of additional useful material diminisies
People _STILL_ won't be told, darn it
Anyone who disagrees is an anarchist/fluffy bunny hugger/ cruel and terrible person (delete as appropriate)
According to Bodwins law, its only a matter of time before Hitler and the Nazis is mentioned.


Click to expand...

 excellent - I have just seen this - couldn't have put it better myself


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## amandap (30 March 2011)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			This... if you had grown up in a country where paddocks quite simply do not exist and no horse is turned out, ever, then whether Toto is or isn't turned out wouldn't even cross your mind 

Click to expand...

True. This is why threads like this (despite handbags etc. lol) are good.
I've changed quite a few things I do or don't do after someone asking... 'why'.
Sometimes we do things and don't really know why we do them, it's just done that way and never questioned.


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## nikkimariet (30 March 2011)

TGM said:



			Have you heard the saying "It is not what you say but the way that you say it"?  I think that applies to your postings on this thread and explains why you got the reactions you did!
		
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No. I didn't say it in any sort of way that warranted the reaction I (and a few others) got. 

The term blinkered vision comes to mind with regards to several of the comments made on here. 'Here' being H&H in general. Not just this thread.


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## Seahorse (30 March 2011)

charlie76 said:



			Just emailed them to make sure they take immediate action, oh and to make sure he is not wearing boots!
		
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Or maybe just some overreach boots on so he doesn't pull his front shoe off maybe?


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## Saucisson (30 March 2011)

*Whispers* Ours are boxed 24/7 through the winter with limited turnout in the summer.

*Whispers more quietly* They're the only horses at our quite sizeable yard that get turned out at all

I just went to see them and they haven't been on the Samaritons yet as far as I can see.  I might cut the straps off their rugs just to be on the safe side though......

Do you know what?  I am absolutely sure that Totilas is fine and is happy when the feed trolley arrives like any other horse.


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## tallyho! (30 March 2011)

Saucisson said:



			*Whispers* Ours are boxed 24/7 through the winter with limited turnout in the summer.

*Whispers more quietly* They're the only horses at our quite sizeable yard that get turned out at all

I just went to see them and they haven't been on the Samaritons yet as far as I can see.  I might cut the straps off their rugs just to be on the safe side though......

Do you know what?  I am absolutely sure that Totilas is fine and is happy when the feed trolley arrives like any other horse.
		
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Psstt... it's ok, no-one really cares - this has turned out to be a rather good excuse for perfecting handbag flinging techniques.....  enjoyed by many!

plus, it's the most interesting thing to happen on HHO for quite some time and frankly I was sick of listening to everyone moan about inanities so this has been a boon!


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## TGM (30 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			No. I didn't say it in any sort of way that warranted the reaction I (and a few others) got. 

The term blinkered vision comes to mind with regards to several of the comments made on here. 'Here' being H&H in general. Not just this thread.
		
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You have to remember that if someone has a different opinion to you and states it, it doesn't mean they are attacking you or 'furiously typing' at you!  It is a debate and an exchange of views which can be done in a perfectly civilised manner, but unfortunately debates often go downhill when people start to get a bit personal or the posts become emotionally charged!


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## Chavhorse (30 March 2011)

Saucisson said:



			*Whispers* Ours are boxed 24/7 through the winter with limited turnout in the summer.

*Whispers more quietly* They're the only horses at our quite sizeable yard that get turned out at all

I just went to see them and they haven't been on the Samaritons yet as far as I can see.  I might cut the straps off their rugs just to be on the safe side though......

Do you know what?  I am absolutely sure that Totilas is fine and is happy when the feed trolley arrives like any other horse.
		
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Oh Blimey its a confessional

OK when I lived in the UK my horses were turned out as much as possible it was what we did.  

Then I moved to Cyprus and my horse there was kept in a pipe corral full of sand, exercised for 3 hours a day and fed all his calories in hard feed and his bulk was straw.  We used to have visitors come over from the UK and shout at my Greek YO about how cruel it was that these poor horses were fed on straw as it caused colic....I used to get dragged down to explain that things were different here and actually the horses were fine very healthy and fitter than the many overweight horses in the UK.

I then moved to Holland and was on 1 yard with turn out for a max of 1 hour a day, one yard with no turn out at all (but we did have a horse walker, I finally after much searching managed to find a yard that turned out in sand paddocks in winter for as much of the day as possible as long as no storms brewing (flat landscape means that horses, and cattle etc are the first thing that lightening will strike!) and the possibility of 24/7 in summer in grass paddocks.  However this yard is very very unusual (especially in the Randstad area I live in).  

My Dutch friends think I am a crazy English person as their horses are only ever turned out for a max of an hour a day if at all,  in fact some of them never see daylight going from American Barn to indoor school, to lorry to inside competition centre. I gave up the facilities  of 2 heated indoor schools, solarium, hydrotherapy pool and fantastic dressage instructors to move to a Western Yard with no indoor because I personally believe that my at the time 4 year old needed to be turned out as much as possible.  

One of my friends is horrified that we have group turn out, her horse is only allowed out on his own and then fully booted and only for an absolute max of 15 mins and only if someone sits and watches him at all times,this is someone who is competing at the Dutch equivalent of Medium Dressage.

I think what Saucisson, frodo and I are trying to say is that it is all done differently in other countries, they have been doing it like this for years and see nothing wrong with it.  You may not agree with it but that is life.

Sorry I may be being overly reasonable here


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## Jimbol (30 March 2011)

Just because it happens it doesnt make it right. Look how farming is changing now people put ethics into their buying decisions, maybe we should make sure the same progression happens with horses.


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## FrodoBeutlin (30 March 2011)

But Jimbol, in a place like Italy for instance this would just not be possible. At all.


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## Jimbol (30 March 2011)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			But Jimbol, in a place like Italy for instance this would just not be possible. At all.
		
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In those cases the decision should be made and all attemts to alleviate the compromise should be made, but when you have a massive estate in Germany i feel you do not have that excuse, or anyone else who has access to turnout. 

The discussion really works on the basis that horses are natural grazers, social and designed to be in open spaces. to work on a different basis is essentially against the horses nature, even if it was not the current owners fault that this is the case, the foal is unlikely to be born without the ability to cope with turnout.


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## welshcobabe (30 March 2011)

It did make me think do these horses ever have time out to be horses are they let out in the field for a good old roll. I know they have the best of everthing else but no matter how top class they are they are still a horse at heart.


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## nikkimariet (30 March 2011)

Jimbol said:



			i feel you do not have that excuse
		
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It's not about excusing it. It's about justifying it. It is not something that requires forgiveness and excusing. 

You cannot compare the amenities and landscape of one region with another. The UK has a lot of grazing because of our weather, Spain/Portugal has dusty and dry land because it is hot as a badgers bum out there. It's easy for you (plural) to state that turnout is normal; because we have it! Some countries, and some people don't. Some horses don't go out in the field due to their behaviour, or their owners preferences. Accept it. I'm not saying don't disagree - just accept it.


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## Jimbol (30 March 2011)

so the merits cannot be discussed then? the main point is that horses who cannot be turned out should not be that way and the reason they are is because of human intervention. To deprive a horse of turnout simply because of owners preference is in my opinion cruel if that fascility is readily available to you, in the same way intensive farming is cruel.

If you have a horse who cannot be turned out but idealy as an owner you would like this not to be the case you should aim to help the horse rediscover turnout. And has it not occured to people that lack of turnout will dramatically increase the likelyhood of arthritis and gastric ulcers.


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## xspiralx (30 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			It's not about excusing it. It's about justifying it. It is not something that requires forgiveness and excusing. 

You cannot compare the amenities and landscape of one region with another. The UK has a lot of grazing because of our weather, Spain/Portugal has dusty and dry land because it is hot as a badgers bum out there. It's easy for you (plural) to state that turnout is normal; because we have it! Some countries, and some people don't. Some horses don't go out in the field due to their behaviour, or their owners preferences. Accept it. I'm not saying don't disagree - just accept it.
		
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Firstly, nobody has to accept anything they don't agree with. It is a fact that must be acknowledged [like factory farming for example], but nobody has to accept it if they don't think it is right.

Secondly, the climate doesn't really matter. Even if horses cannot really graze outside, the point is having the space for turnout in any capacity. If people can manage to turn horses out in England [a tiny country with a huge population], then it can be managed in other countries.

Horses are all individuals of course, and I don't doubt that there are a few who prefer to be indoors the majority of the time, but I think it is a bit too convenient that this explanation seems to be applied to the majority of top dressage horses. If one is going to put human ambition above equine welfare, then at least call a spade a spade instead of trying to argue that it is somehow unavoidable or actually better for the horse.


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## Nocturnal (30 March 2011)

I'd be interested in hearing from FrodoBeutlin whether she's observed a higher rate of arthritis and gastric ulcers on the yards with little or no turnout where she lives, in comparison to yards with ample turnout...?


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## mrdarcy (30 March 2011)

xspiralx said:



			Firstly, nobody has to accept anything they don't agree with. It is a fact that must be acknowledged [like factory farming for example], but nobody has to accept it if they don't think it is right.

Secondly, the climate doesn't really matter. Even if horses cannot really graze outside, the point is having the space for turnout in any capacity. If people can manage to turn horses out in England [a tiny country with a huge population], then it can be managed in other countries.

Horses are all individuals of course, and I don't doubt that there are a few who prefer to be indoors the majority of the time, but I think it is a bit too convenient that this explanation seems to be applied to the majority of top dressage horses. If one is going to put human ambition above equine welfare, then at least call a spade a spade instead of trying to argue that it is somehow unavoidable or actually better for the horse.
		
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Haven't read the whole thread as it's too depressing but this is a great great post!


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## Apercrumbie (30 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			No. I didn't say it in any sort of way that warranted the reaction I (and a few others) got. 

The term blinkered vision comes to mind with regards to several of the comments made on here. 'Here' being H&H in general. Not just this thread.
		
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NM - I'm really sorry as I respect you as a rider and a horsewoman but I disagree with you on this point.  You complain about people not understanding and that they should just accept things but you also don't see it from their point of view and come across as very condescending to those who believe horses should get some turnout.  Apologies if this wasn't your intention.  I don't think anyone on this thread has said that all horses should be out 24/7, most are saying that it would be nice for the horse if he had been brought up with a couple of hours turnout every day.  As many have said, it's about time for chilling and being a horse.  TBH most of your replies have been replying to more personal comments rather than defending your point of view.    
No-one is saying your routine is wrong, they are saying that it doesn't matter how much a horse is worth, they should have turnout from a young age.  The reason Totilas would injure himself if turned out is because he has had years of being in and it would blow his brains.  I'm sorry about your horse that was injured while turned out, but that could have easily happened under saddle.


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## mcnaughty (30 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			No. I didn't say it in any sort of way that warranted the reaction I (and a few others) got. 

The term blinkered vision comes to mind with regards to several of the comments made on here. 'Here' being H&H in general. Not just this thread.
		
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That, my dear, is your opinion but you should really read your posts properly.


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## Jimbol (30 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			I'd be interested in hearing from FrodoBeutlin whether she's observed a higher rate of arthritis and gastric ulcers on the yards with little or no turnout where she lives, in comparison to yards with ample turnout...?
		
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I think the levels of gastric ulcers in racehorses is perhaps the evidence there, it is also becoming more common in sports horses.

As for arthritis, lack of mobility and confinelment are known causes.


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## Nocturnal (30 March 2011)

Jimbol said:



			I think the levels of gastric ulcers in racehorses is perhaps the evidence there, it is also becoming more common in sports horses.

As for arthritis, lack of mobility and confinelment are known causes.
		
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Given the other possible factors involved in racehorse training it would be interesting to hear about other types of horses in other disciplines. 

With regards to arthritis etc, I was hoping for some real life experiences, hence my question.


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## Allover (30 March 2011)

I remember discussing a study of respiratory issues, with Mary Bromiley, in dressage horses and over 90% of them had one problem or another in their wind due to being incorrectly ridden and managed. 

I also love the "feed it from a manger to increase its neck muscles" bullshit aswell, you could eat your dinner with your chin on your chest and see how much you like it! 

I would be interested to hear from anyone on these top yards about the amount of joint medicating that goes on in relatively young competition horses due to confinement, lack of correct musculature and too much pressure to perform put on young immature bodies.


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## nikkimariet (30 March 2011)

Apercrumbie said:



			NM - You complain about people not understanding and that they should just accept things but you also don't see it from their point of view and come across as very condescending to those who believe horses should get some turnout.  Apologies if this wasn't your intention.
		
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*facepalm*

I AM someone who believes horses should get turnout!! I am SO grateful that we have our own land and can turn ours out for as long as we want - I think turnout IS an important aspect of a horses life (regardless of whether it is a pet or a commodity....)

What I'm saying is that you (plural, not specifically you) should be able and willing to accept that not all owners/riders think that turnout is necessary and provide it for their horses and/or that not all owners/riders have turnout readily available so turnout is not an aspect of their horses lives.


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## nikkimariet (30 March 2011)

xspiralx said:



			Firstly, nobody has to accept anything they don't agree with. It is a fact that must be acknowledged [like factory farming for example], but nobody has to accept it if they don't think it is right.

Secondly, the climate doesn't really matter. Even if horses cannot really graze outside, the point is having the space for turnout in any capacity. If people can manage to turn horses out in England [a tiny country with a huge population], then it can be managed in other countries.

Horses are all individuals of course, and I don't doubt that there are a few who prefer to be indoors the majority of the time, but I think it is a bit too convenient that this explanation seems to be applied to the majority of top dressage horses. If one is going to put human ambition above equine welfare, then at least call a spade a spade instead of trying to argue that it is somehow unavoidable or actually better for the horse.
		
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A, accepting something is to acknowledge the information in question?.....

B, turnout for GRAZING is the main argument.....posters are upset because Toto cannot graze every day 'like a natural horse'. (my point of climate difference was referring to a non Toto example....)

C, equine welfare? Does Toto look like a horse OR act like a horse that is mistreated???....

To add the the last bit - the combination of horse value/job required of a horse/horse behaviour/yard routine/owner and or rider preference means that in this case IE that of Toto, is a justified one.


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## Jimbol (30 March 2011)

Degenerative diseases such as Arthritis are rarely the result of one thing, however lack of mobility will cause it, in human or animal.

As for gastric ulcers it can be diet, stress, pharmaceutical or a range of other causes, but again the lifestyle of a boxed horse will have many of the factors that cause these diseases. I now would also like to add respiratory diseases to the list.


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## Fellewell (30 March 2011)

Leaving aside different disciplines/conformation and people with egos the size of Wales (let's just call them 'the master race'). The RIDER'S musculature will have far more bearing on the horse's musculature than any turnout or lack thereof. This will also contribute to injuries which may come out in the field but originate under saddle.


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## xspiralx (30 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			A, accepting something is to acknowledge the information in question?.....

B, turnout for GRAZING is the main argument.....posters are upset because Toto cannot graze every day 'like a natural horse'. (my point of climate difference was referring to a non Toto example....)

C, equine welfare? Does Toto look like a horse OR act like a horse that is mistreated???....

To add the the last bit - the combination of horse value/job required of a horse/horse behaviour/yard routine/owner and or rider preference means that in this case IE that of Toto, is a justified one.
		
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a. No it isn't. Accepting something means "to regard as true or sound; to believe; to regard as normal, suitable, or usual." There is a vast difference between acknowledging a fact, and accepting it.

b. I don't believe it is the main argument, I believe it is the lack of freedom to run, play or even wander around an open space like a normal horse. If grass is not available due to climate then hay or haylage is a good substitute anyway.

c. Did I say mistreated? No. He is treated very very well. But ultimately the decision to keep a horse with no turnout is not a decision that is made for the welfare of the horse.


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## Nocturnal (30 March 2011)

Jimbol said:



			Degenerative diseases such as Arthritis are rarely the result of one thing, however lack of mobility will cause it, in human or animal.

As for gastric ulcers it can be diet, stress, pharmaceutical or a range of other causes, but again the lifestyle of a boxed horse will have many of the factors that cause these diseases. I now would also like to add respiratory diseases to the list.
		
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Yes, I'm aware of the theory behind these diseases, it was specifically the experiences of someone who's spent time on yards with very limited or no turnout that I was enquiring about.


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## nikkimariet (30 March 2011)

xspiralx said:



			a. No it isn't. Accepting something means "to regard as true or sound; to believe; to regard as normal, suitable, or usual." There is a vast difference between acknowledging a fact, and accepting it.

b. I don't believe it is the main argument, I believe it is the lack of freedom to run, play or even wander around an open space like a normal horse. If grass is not available due to climate then hay or haylage is a good substitute anyway.

c. Did I say mistreated? No. He is treated very very well. But ultimately the decision to keep a horse with no turnout is not a decision that is made for the welfare of the horse.
		
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*double facepalm*


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## xspiralx (30 March 2011)

Always good to resort to a gesture of frustration when you haven't actually got a reasoned answer


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## PoppyAnderson (30 March 2011)

TGM said:



			Have you heard the saying "It is not what you say but the way that you say it"?  I think that applies to your postings on this thread and explains why you got the reactions you did!
		
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Agree with this. It was me who used the word arrogant in a response to NM but, for clarity, I didn't say you were arrogant, I said that you were usually well balanced in your postings but that a particular statement you made in this thread came across as arrogant. Big, and important, difference.

Oh yes, one more thing, NM, I have a strong enough command of the English language to know which word I was looking for and it was arrogant, not ignorant.


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## nikkimariet (30 March 2011)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Agree with this. It was me who used the word arrogant in a response to NM but, for clarity, I didn't say you were arrogant, I said that you were usually well balanced in your postings but that a particular statement you made in this thread came across as arrogant. Big, and important, difference.

Oh yes, one more thing, NM, I have a strong enough command of the English language to know which word I was looking for and it was arrogant, not ignorant.
		
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OH.  That's certainly taught me a lesson. I must never ever ever EVER oppose you and your mighty views and your mighty friends and their mighty views.


















P.S. If you're going to attempt to patronize me, please pick on someone who you can bully a little easier.


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## Spudlet (30 March 2011)

For someone enjoying poking the angry bears, you seem quite... ummm... angry.

Tell me, do you display any ursine tendencies? Do you hibernate during periods of inclement weather? Have a predilection for pick-er-nick baskets, or perhaps honey?


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## nikkimariet (30 March 2011)

Spudlet said:



			For someone enjoying poking the angry bears, you seem quite... ummm... angry.

Tell me, do you display any ursine tendencies? Do you hibernate during periods of inclement weather? Have a predilection for pick-er-nick baskets, or perhaps honey?







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I don't like bullies. Bullies do make me angry.

You're not going to start asking questions about my periods again are you? Because that was. Erm. Weird.


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## Spudlet (30 March 2011)

I can assure you, your menstrual cycle has never held any interest for me. I think you are getting me confused with someone else.



















Of course, short term memory loss like this may be a sign of the Change. Perhaps HRT is the answer for you?


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## nikkimariet (30 March 2011)

Spudlet said:



			I can assure you, your menstrual cycle has never held any interest for me. I think you are getting me confused with someone else
		
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Sorry. It was Allover who originally asked bizarre personal questions; you are easily confused with other members of your herd, so again, sorry.


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## PoppyAnderson (30 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			OH.  That's certainly taught me a lesson. I must never ever ever EVER oppose you and your mighty views and your mighty friends and their mighty views.


P.S. If you're going to attempt to patronize me, please pick on someone who you can bully a little easier.
		
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You have some major anger issues going on. I don't have mighty views or friends and have never purported to have. I have no idea why you're getting so uptight about what I said. I said you were usually pretty balanced, so I was hardly doing a character assassination. I can only assume that an imposter has hijacked your username, as I've never read anything you've previously written which has come across as so unhinged.


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## nikkimariet (30 March 2011)

PoppyAnderson said:



			You have some major anger issues going on.
		
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Anger issues?? If it's online, anger is wasted energy. You are clearly reading everything that I've written with the wrong tone.

I would have gone with sarcasm. Or frustration. But not anger. Actually, right now; I'm bored.


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## redcascade (30 March 2011)

I've somehow managed to trawl through all 32 pages of this and I have once again realised why a don't come in New Lounge anymore....ah well, back to CR and PG for me *toddles off*


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## Natch (31 March 2011)

x



nikkimariet said:



			B, turnout for GRAZING is the main argument.....posters are upset because Toto cannot graze every day 'like a natural horse'. (my point of climate difference was referring to a non Toto example....)
		
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Sorry to be a bit of a bugger, but yes the ability to graze is ideal, but I for one would be happier if he got space to wander around in if it made turnout possible in the eyes of his keepers. Unless his stable is 20 x 40 and I didn't known about it.



Spudlet said:










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Aaaaahhhh!



nikkimariet said:



			Sorry. It was Allover who originally asked bizarre personal questions; you are easily confused with other members of your herd, so again, sorry.
		
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Whereas you are clearly unique


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## TGM (31 March 2011)

I think xspiralx's posts summed things up very well for me, plus gave a good example of how to debate a subject in a reasoned and clear fashion!  (Perhaps an example some other posters could follow. )


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## AndySpooner (31 March 2011)

xspiralx said:



			a.

c. Did I say mistreated? No. He is treated very very well. But ultimately the decision to keep a horse with no turnout is not a decision that is made for the welfare of the horse.
		
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I have to say that I agree strongly with this post.

The fear with this horses managers is that he will suffer some injury if allowed turnout and this is obviously a decision made with consideration to potential financial loss being the main factor.

It is ingenuous all round to say that the behavioural conditioning of this horse is the reason for his incarceration.

Mistreatment is both emotive and subjective in these circumstances. He is obviously well cared for, but going back to the very first post, it may be argued that the singular conditions this horse is kept in may already be having a detrimental effect on the physical well-being of this horse, in as much as his feet may be breaking down. If he became infertile through the management syste, not only an ironic end, but I'm sure his guilded cage would then disappear.


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## ester (31 March 2011)

ditto TGM I thought your post was excellent spiral . 

NL is created by the people who are in it, generally it is used for discussion of horsey topics if you enjoy such discussion, join in, if you don't think you will perhaps it isn't for you. I find it often makes me think what my views are on topics I have not previously considered .


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## Allover (31 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			I don't like bullies. Bullies do make me angry.

You're not going to start asking questions about my periods again are you? Because that was. Erm. Weird.
		
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No that was me!! 

I asked because whereas your posts are normally quite sane, sensible, informative and generally kind you seem to be being a bit agressive and dismissive in this one, hence i questioned your cycle as you did not seem to be in your "normal" nice posting mood!


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## Flame_ (31 March 2011)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Agree with this. It was me who used the word arrogant in a response to NM but, for clarity, I didn't say you were arrogant, I said that you were usually well balanced in your postings but that a particular statement you made in this thread came across as arrogant. Big, and important, difference.
		
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I have to say, NM usually seems pretty arrogant to me.

Plus, good posts Spiral.


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## jokadoka (31 March 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Anyone fancy a coffee and some soldiers and eggs??
		
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Don't fancy coffee, not into eggs, but quite fancy a soldier!!!!


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## FrodoBeutlin (31 March 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			I'd be interested in hearing from FrodoBeutlin whether she's observed a higher rate of arthritis and gastric ulcers on the yards with little or no turnout where she lives, in comparison to yards with ample turnout...?
		
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In my (anectodal) experience no, not really. I have known some horses with ulcers but not sure the lack of turnout was to blame for that -- they were horses competing at a very high level (international), travelling a lot most weekends etc. so horses prone to gastric ulcers irrespective of turnout or lack of it.

In fact I have been trying for a while to find scientific papers which PROVE that turnout is beneficial (in terms of health) and therefore it is actually more dangerous to stable horses rather than turning them out, just to have something to show to friends who are convinced that if you turn your horse out you are a crazy, heartless person who does not care about her horse (!), but they are not easy to find.

The only thing which comes close is a paper at the last Global Dressage Forum which recommended some turnout for dressage horses but as far as I know it did not quote any scientific papers, it was more of a "common sense" approach so to speak. (Disclaimer: I was not there so not sure if my information is correct, it's what I've picked up reading articles about it on the internet).


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## FrodoBeutlin (31 March 2011)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			just to have something to show to friends who are convinced that if you turn your horse out you are a crazy, heartless person who does not care about her horse (!).
		
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But just to give you an idea about the different cultures, I turn my horses out, have always done and have turned out in rain, snow etc. Most of my Italian friends, and some of my German ones, really do seem to believe I do not "care" about my horses because I turn them out. People have said "poor horses", referring to mine, because they were out in the rain (happily eating grass, I might add!) or in the heat (again, happily grazing, and if too many flies wearing a fly rug, etc!)...

If they knew or were told that in the UK you are considered "cruel" if you DON'T turn horses out, they'd probably have a heart attack!

That's why I really don't see things changing, ever.... I have some friends and acquaintances in Italy who compete at quite a high level (up to international GP). I just can never, ever see them turning any horse out, ever. It's just something so far away from their normal way of thinking that they would never change their mind not even if all the top vets in the world told us that turnout prolongs the career of dressage horses and so forth.


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## ester (31 March 2011)

and that's why I like this forum, we have people with experience of far off climes and what actually goes on there which can put a whole different slant on things  and teaches me stuff I otherwise wouldn't know.


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## AshTay (31 March 2011)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			But just to give you an idea about the different cultures, I turn my horses out, have always done and have turned out in rain, snow etc. Most of my Italian friends, and some of my German ones, really do seem to believe I do not "care" about my horses because I turn them out. People have said "poor horses", referring to mine, because they were out in the rain (happily eating grass, I might add!) or in the heat (again, happily grazing, and if too many flies wearing a fly rug, etc!)...

If they knew or were told that in the UK you are considered "cruel" if you DON'T turn horses out, they'd probably have a heart attack!

That's why I really don't see things changing, ever.... I have some friends and acquaintances in Italy who compete at quite a high level (up to international GP). I just can never, ever see them turning any horse out, ever. It's just something so far away from their normal way of thinking that they would never change their mind not even if all the top vets in the world told us that turnout prolongs the career of dressage horses and so forth.
		
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Bizarre but also very sad.

Have they never seen photos/pictures of horses out in fields grazing? Or galloping across a meadow? Or have they never seen films? Surely it can't be that much of an alien concept.


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## Saucisson (31 March 2011)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			But just to give you an idea about the different cultures, I turn my horses out, have always done and have turned out in rain, snow etc. Most of my Italian friends, and some of my German ones, really do seem to believe I do not "care" about my horses because I turn them out. People have said "poor horses", referring to mine, because they were out in the rain (happily eating grass, I might add!) or in the heat (again, happily grazing, and if too many flies wearing a fly rug, etc!)...

If they knew or were told that in the UK you are considered "cruel" if you DON'T turn horses out, they'd probably have a heart attack!
		
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Yep!  I know some people like that (also very big fans of Totilas' "new owner" ).  One of them won't even let kids/horses go hacking as it's too risky for the horses.

Another will concede that hacking is good for competition horses but only because of the varied terrain and the advantages of "working" on different terrains for musculation and balance.

BUT, there are also plenty of people here who don't think like that.

OH says it's cruel to keep a horse out in field all the time with no work to occupy it's brain - but hey, I bet that'll be a popular theory on here


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## FrodoBeutlin (31 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			Bizarre but also very sad.

Have they never seen photos/pictures of horses out in fields grazing? Or galloping across a meadow? Or have they never seen films? Surely it can't be that much of an alien concept.
		
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No, definitely not dressage horses. Not horses which cost £500k to 1 million and are competing internationally.

Retired dressage horses, maybe. 

(To be fair, I have never seen pictures of Olympic-level dressage horses grazing in a field either. The only one I have heard of was Escapado, the exception that proves the rule!)


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## Halfstep (31 March 2011)

I read this thread really interested in Totilas' shoes, which I had noticed on the pictures! But no one seems to want to discuss them  

Why is he in heartbars? His feet looked normal when I saw him in the flesh at Windsor. I'd be interested to hear a farrier's take on this.

Regarding turnout: I'm very luck - my dressage horse who is working at PSG and starting to school Grand Prix work has been living out 24/7 for a few weeks now, and will do so at least until the weather deteriorates. He is fed twice a day and hayed in the field, and is out in a group, unbooted. His musculature is noticably  better now than when he was in 24/7 due to the snow and wet in the winter. Which does he prefer? Well, he likes to be out when the weather is nice, and he has been known to refuse to leave his stable in the winter when it is miserable. So, I let him do what he wants. But he's no Totilas. And he is the first competition horse I've ever had who was safe to leave outside like that, although he does freak out if left alone in the field. Each to his own.


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## FrodoBeutlin (31 March 2011)

Saucisson said:



			One of them won't even let kids/horses go hacking as it's too risky for the horses.
		
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Oh my, I forgot about that -- I spent a while at the yard of a renowned Olympic rider who also thought hacking was too risky. I remember having a huge fight -- I am an adult, and the horse I am riding is my own horse, how can I not be allowed to go on a hack if I want? It was crazy. There was no turnout there either (obviously!!!) but I had managed to solve that problem by renting a field off a neighbouring farmer. 

I lasted three months on that yard!


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## outandabout (31 March 2011)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			In fact I have been trying for a while to find scientific papers which PROVE that turnout is beneficial (in terms of health) and therefore it is actually more dangerous to stable horses rather than turning them out, just to have something to show to friends who are convinced that if you turn your horse out you are a crazy, heartless person who does not care about her horse (!), but they are not easy to find.

The only thing which comes close is a paper at the last Global Dressage Forum which recommended some turnout for dressage horses but as far as I know it did not quote any scientific papers, it was more of a "common sense" approach so to speak. (Disclaimer: I was not there so not sure if my information is correct, it's what I've picked up reading articles about it on the internet).
		
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I'm not going to get into the rights or wrongs of turnout, but from an academic point of view I imagine the reason you're finding it hard to find many/any papers on this is because they probably don't exist.  Realistically, who would fund research on that subject?  A welfare group might, I suppose, but they will have bigger problems to look at than this if funding is a priority.  A shame, as it would be nice to have some proper research done on this topic rather than anecdotal evidence!  

Also, and this is a genuine question, there was a post waaaaay back about how turnout means the 'wrong' muscles develop (irrespective of the ethics/potential mental benefits of turnout).  If this is the case and I haven't completely misunderstood this, think about why human athletes cross train in other disciplines - along with other reasons, to prevent wear and tear and injury through overuse of certain muscles that are involved in the core discipline.  Does the same not apply to horses?  What is the shelf-life on these dressage horses - are they still competing at 16+?


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## FrodoBeutlin (31 March 2011)

fadedv said:



			Also, and this is a genuine question, there was a post waaaaay back about how turnout means the 'wrong' muscles develop (irrespective of the ethics/potential mental benefits of turnout).  If this is the case and I haven't completely misunderstood this, think about why human athletes cross train in other disciplines - along with other reasons, to prevent wear and tear and injury through overuse of certain muscles that are involved in the core discipline.  Does the same not apply to horses?  What is the shelf-life on these dressage horses - are they still competing at 16+?
		
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Well, I guess this is the interesting point, because these horses do still compete at 16 and beyond.

Another former Olympic rider I used to know was also against turnout for competition horses and her Olympic mount was still competing at the Olympics (!!!!) when he was 21. I think he was the oldest horse competing at such a high level. He died at the age of 33. And there are plenty of examples like this, so yes, lack of turnout definitely does not seem to affect longevity of career!


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## imr (31 March 2011)

Impaction colics are associated with lack of grass - the rates of them usually go up when horses are eating hay and not grass. At least this is what my vetty sister said. And it makes complete sense if you think about it too.

The thing is that moving around is good for some things like arthritis, but most of these horses will be getting that from walker machine etc as a substitute so would be hard to tell if turnout made a difference I think? Dunno but if you find any answers to your research FB would be interesting. 

Personally I like to turn mine out. But I am fed up with the people who equate 24/7 turnout with a happy horse. Mine loves to go out, but after a couple of hours he wants to come in again, especially if its cold and wet. He would hate to live out far more than he would hate to have no turnout at all. In my view you make the decision depending on the horse and your own circumstances.

Horses are amazingly adaptable too. I have dragged mine around the planet. As chavhorse says you do what is normal for where you are. Having grown up in denmark and then lived in the UK from 5- 19 he has spent the last 2 years living in the desert with an hour of sand paddock turnout 6 days a week and none during ramadan (too hot and weird working hours because of fasting), aircon for four months of the year when its really hot and humid. He gets in hand grass a few times a week from the ornamental gardeny bits (when noone is looking ) . Mostly he eats competition mix and racehorse hay. He is perfectly happy. he is 21 and looks 16. He is coming home this summer and no doubt he will adjust to the colder temperature and going out in a field pretty quick too. Though he will probably be a bit annoyed at the lack of palm trees with dates on as he is pretty obsessed with eating dates (he spits the stones out too - clever chap!). However, doubtless someone will tell me how cruel I am.


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## Chavhorse (31 March 2011)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			But just to give you an idea about the different cultures, I turn my horses out, have always done and have turned out in rain, snow etc. Most of my Italian friends, and some of my German ones, really do seem to believe I do not "care" about my horses because I turn them out. People have said "poor horses", referring to mine, because they were out in the rain (happily eating grass, I might add!) or in the heat (again, happily grazing, and if too many flies wearing a fly rug, etc!)...

If they knew or were told that in the UK you are considered "cruel" if you DON'T turn horses out, they'd probably have a heart attack!

That's why I really don't see things changing, ever.... I have some friends and acquaintances in Italy who compete at quite a high level (up to international GP). I just can never, ever see them turning any horse out, ever. It's just something so far away from their normal way of thinking that they would never change their mind not even if all the top vets in the world told us that turnout prolongs the career of dressage horses and so forth.
		
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This - Believe me it took me nearly a year to find a yard that was not a 2 hour drive away that offered any sort of turn out of more than an hour in a sand paddock if at all (apparently Dutch horses do not like turnout and only wait to come in again anyway so why bother!).  I have to say I was totally shocked upon moving to Holland and finding that the majority of horses are kept in 24/7 end of...."hacking why would I do that its a dressage horse" 

I am lucky that I have managed to find somewhere that does turn out all year round and allows herd turn out rather than individual it is really really unusual here.  But it sure as hell is not a dressage yard if I had wanted to keep that up I would have had to put up with the restrictions available in those yards.

As Frodo has said above they think the Brits are weird and cruel for turning out all the time and turn out 24/7 in winter even on my yard this would be a real step too far, In winter everything is in by 16:00 in warm blankets, and if it rains they do not go out at all (risk of lightening strike!).

It will never change they think they are right and we are wrong and vice versa.and have been doing it like this for years.

Oh note for the poster who said that in hotter climes sand paddocks were fine as you could feed hay or hayledge.....can I just say that in Cyprus no such thing existed, hay was not grown, we fed Straw for bulk and all calorie and vitamin needs in hard feed, this was for all horses even those in high level competition.


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## Chavhorse (31 March 2011)

imr said:



			Horses are amazingly adaptable too. I have dragged mine around the planet. As chavhorse says you do what is normal for where you are. Having grown up in denmark and then lived in the UK from 5- 19 he has spent the last 2 years living in the desert with an hour of sand paddock turnout 6 days a week and none during ramadan (too hot and weird working hours because of fasting), aircon for four months of the year when its really hot and humid. He gets in hand grass a few times a week from the ornamental gardeny bits (when noone is looking ) . Mostly he eats competition mix and racehorse hay. He is perfectly happy. he is 21 and looks 16. He is coming home this summer and no doubt he will adjust to the colder temperature and going out in a field pretty quick too. Though he will probably be a bit annoyed at the lack of palm trees with dates on as he is pretty obsessed with eating dates (he spits the stones out too - clever chap!). However, doubtless someone will tell me how cruel I am.
		
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Nope I will not call you cruel at all having experience of taking on an 8 year old OTTB, who lived with me in Cyprus in a sand paddock 24/7 with access to a bamboo sun shelter, ate a diet of hard feed and straw only, hacked out on rugged terrain for 3 hours a day and in all the time I owned him the only time we ever saw a vet was once a year for the jabs.

He is now 17 still going strong and still only seeing the vet once year for his jabs.

Mine loved dates as well and figs when they were in season I wonder if this and the sun is the answer


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## FrodoBeutlin (31 March 2011)

Figs! I could never have a horse who loves figs! They're my favourite thing on earth, I am very possessive when it comes to figs  Dates, they can have!


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## outandabout (31 March 2011)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			Well, I guess this is the interesting point, because these horses do still compete at 16 and beyond.

Another former Olympic rider I used to know was also against turnout for competition horses and her Olympic mount was still competing at the Olympics (!!!!) when he was 21. I think he was the oldest horse competing at such a high level. He died at the age of 33. And there are plenty of examples like this, so yes, lack of turnout definitely does not seem to affect longevity of career!
		
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That is interesting! So what do they do, if anything, in terms of 'cross training'?  Is it just the case that the level of the work is varied?


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## Amaranta (31 March 2011)

On the subject of ulcers, it is not lack of grazing per se that causes them, it is lack of fibre.  The reason so many racehorses have them is because they are not fed massive amounts of hay, the same applies to showjumpers etc, as hay in the belly affects performance.  Not saying I agree with it, it is just fact.

Interestingly, as many as 67% of leisure horses suffer from gastric ulcers.

I get what NM is trying to say as I feel the same way, I, personally like my horses to be out as much as possible, but we have to accept that because of the vast sums of money involved, owners of competition horses are loathe to turn out.  Having had one horse break a leg and another damage a suspensory ligament from accidents in the field, I can, kind of, understand this.

UK horses are lucky in that they live in a culture which turns out their horses, on the continent it is very different and when these horses are imported, time has to be taken in introducing them to turn out.

As for Totilas, he receives the best of care and I would rather see a horse treated like him than see one abandoned to starve in a field.


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## Jimbol (31 March 2011)

There are plenty of racehorses whon win the derby without turnout, so you cannot say that a few exceptional cases disproves the evidence that turnout is in fact better for horses and there are many areas of evidence to prove this, if nature itself is not proof enough.

Now when these horses are retired and they cannot be turned out safely what happens to the horse then, or is that not important while you are making money and winning medals?


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## FrodoBeutlin (31 March 2011)

fadedv said:



			That is interesting! So what do they do, if anything, in terms of 'cross training'?  Is it just the case that the level of the work is varied?
		
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Yes, I think that's it, some days you will work more intensely, some other days you will just do supplying work..... and you would work on the basics most days anyway (it's not like you practise diagonals of one tempis every day...or again, you wouldn't do proper pirouettes -- most of the time you'd do large working pirouettes, etc)


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## Ranyhyn (31 March 2011)

Wanders in with a low drooping tail...wonders how grown women and men(?) can't keep a very interesting debate, factual, unbiased and without rudeness....and wanders out.


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## Tinypony (31 March 2011)

I think some of this discussion comes down to peoples definition of "the best of care" and other similar expressions.  Some feel that unless the horse's mental well-being is catered for, it doesn't matter how carefully their body is looked after, they are not having "the best of care".  
This argument will go on forever.  Those who feel that the end justifies the means and that a valuable horse does not have the right to proper turnout and interaction with companions, and those who feel that is a fundamental part of good horse care for the vast majority of horses...  will always be at loggerheads.
All I would suggest is that, if the hooves are a result of "nurture", then the horse can't be getting the best of care.  That's another one that we'll never agree on either, and it can't be proved either way.


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## YorksG (31 March 2011)

Unfortunately using race horses as comparissons leads again to the vexed question of what happens to these animals when they are no longer 'fit for purpose'. I cannot see that once the money making aspect of the horses life is over that they will continue to have the level of interaction which they have during their competetive years. What happens to them then?


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## Amaranta (31 March 2011)

YorksG said:



			Unfortunately using race horses as comparissons leads again to the vexed question of what happens to these animals when they are no longer 'fit for purpose'. I cannot see that once the money making aspect of the horses life is over that they will continue to have the level of interaction which they have during their competetive years. What happens to them then?
		
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Again, I agree, hence my previous comment of larger welfare issues than lack of turnout for Totilas.

Other competition horses, in the main , are sold on as 'schoolmasters', although I am sure that some of these end up in less than ideal circumstances too.


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## quirky (31 March 2011)

Kitsune said:



			Wanders in with a low drooping tail...wonders how grown women and men(?) can't keep a very interesting debate, factual, unbiased and without rudeness....and wanders out.
		
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NM isn't a grown woman, she is a child of 13 .


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## charlie76 (31 March 2011)

So...............................................................................................................................................................................................why does Totilas have special shoes?????


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## ester (31 March 2011)

options:

1) they look prettier and take attention away from that god awful bridle
2) the farrier forgot the normal ones so had to make do
3) he has feet or soundness issues that we can speculate on for hours

I am kinda betting that hho will go for the later option


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## quirky (31 March 2011)

Maybe the farrier thinks the owners are loaded and therefore put more expensive shoes on as a money making scheme .


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## amandap (31 March 2011)

YorksG said:



			Unfortunately using race horses as comparissons leads again to the vexed question of what happens to these animals when they are no longer 'fit for purpose'. I cannot see that once the money making aspect of the horses life is over that they will continue to have the level of interaction which they have during their competetive years. What happens to them then?
		
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Yes, I think this is the crux of the matter. I tried to say before that perhaps we have an attitude of horses being 'disposable' tools and in a way forget they are living beings and all our practices have an impact on them...  I don't think we should seperate what is natural for horses so far from them, surely it's bound to have consequences for their whole bodies and mental health. 
Wearing heart bar shoes is I believe a sign that the hooves are needing more support than they were in the past... if they don't 'fix it' then what next in the shoe line? If he is getting the best of care that is in his true best interests then why is there an apparent deterioration in his hoof health, evidenced by his transition to heart bar shoes?  I don't believe heart bars are ever used as a statement of 'this is a great horse' are they? 

Mta... I believe racehorses who don't make the grade go on the open market or to slaughter? I would imagine a similar scenario with other 'competion' horses. The trouble with the open market is that these horses have had a very 'controlled' and limited life expereince so unless someone aware that they need to re start them buys them they can end up on that dreadful misunderstood treadmill of human expectations not matching what a horse has learned and the horse is the one who suffers.


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## Halfstep (31 March 2011)

Hear bars are used mainly to help with laminitis recovery (surely unlikely in Totilas????), to help with corns, contracted heels and most likely, flat feet where the frog requires extra support. Totilas does have big dinner plate feet, so perhaps in changing management when he moved from Edward's to PS's place, maybe his feet were allowed to get too flat  - all it takes is one wrong shoeing cycle, and mistakes can be made. 

Odd, still. 

I've seen a lot of dressage horses recently with eggbars on behind, which is supposed to help support the hind limb structures in weightbearing, especially in canter pirouettes.  Not QUITE sure how this works, but it seems to be a bit of a fashion.


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## Nocturnal (31 March 2011)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			In my (anectodal) experience no, not really. I have known some horses with ulcers but not sure the lack of turnout was to blame for that -- they were horses competing at a very high level (international), travelling a lot most weekends etc. so horses prone to gastric ulcers irrespective of turnout or lack of it.

In fact I have been trying for a while to find scientific papers which PROVE that turnout is beneficial (in terms of health) and therefore it is actually more dangerous to stable horses rather than turning them out, just to have something to show to friends who are convinced that if you turn your horse out you are a crazy, heartless person who does not care about her horse (!), but they are not easy to find.

The only thing which comes close is a paper at the last Global Dressage Forum which recommended some turnout for dressage horses but as far as I know it did not quote any scientific papers, it was more of a "common sense" approach so to speak. (Disclaimer: I was not there so not sure if my information is correct, it's what I've picked up reading articles about it on the internet).
		
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Very interesting! Thanks  Shame there doesn't seem to be any research available on the effects of turnout, I bet it would make very interesting reading.


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## Nocturnal (31 March 2011)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			But just to give you an idea about the different cultures, I turn my horses out, have always done and have turned out in rain, snow etc. Most of my Italian friends, and some of my German ones, really do seem to believe I do not "care" about my horses because I turn them out. People have said "poor horses", referring to mine, because they were out in the rain (happily eating grass, I might add!) or in the heat (again, happily grazing, and if too many flies wearing a fly rug, etc!)...

If they knew or were told that in the UK you are considered "cruel" if you DON'T turn horses out, they'd probably have a heart attack!

That's why I really don't see things changing, ever.... I have some friends and acquaintances in Italy who compete at quite a high level (up to international GP). I just can never, ever see them turning any horse out, ever. It's just something so far away from their normal way of thinking that they would never change their mind not even if all the top vets in the world told us that turnout prolongs the career of dressage horses and so forth.
		
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Fascinating how different the view on turnout is on the continent! This is the main reason why I argue in favour of letting people do as they please with their horses without criticising, so long as the horses are happy and healthy. One person's 'right' is another's 'wrong'.


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## jenbleep (31 March 2011)

amymay said:



			Are you seriously trying to tell me that a horse mooching around in a field for an hour or two (or heaven forbid longer), using it's muscles in a natural way is detrimental??

There are a few odd things in this thread - but this caps it.  Sorry.
		
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Totally agree, it's stupid. Turning out is a time of relaxation...?


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## siennamum (31 March 2011)

quirky said:



			NM isn't a grown woman, she is a child of 13 .
		
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IS she?

For some reason I thought she was Princess Sparkle's mum....


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## glitterbug (31 March 2011)

siennamum said:



			IS she?

For some reason I thought she was Princess Sparkle's mum....
		
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I don't think she is 13, also I think she is Princess Sparkles sister although I may be wrong


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## Nocturnal (31 March 2011)

jenbleep said:



			Totally agree, it's stupid. Turning out is a time of relaxation...?
		
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Ah, thank you so much for that well reasoned and scientific argument in favour of your opinion . Honestly, MY post was stupid??


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## Allover (31 March 2011)

There have definately been studies done on the benefits of turn out but i will be damned if i can find any, i shall keep trawling though!! 

One of the other things i remember was that if a horse was turned out for 2 hours a day then the nutritional uptake from its feed was increased by 40%!


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## quirky (31 March 2011)

glitterbug said:



			I don't think she is 13, also I think she is Princess Sparkles sister although I may be wrong 

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I stand corrected , she is more like 21 .
Maybe it was the posting style that made me think she was 13 .


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## Fellewell (31 March 2011)

There have also been studies on the detrimental effects of forcing a horse to shift its weight on its hind legs. Hock dysplasia is common in grand prix horses due to piaffe and passage etc. So their conformation counts against them to begin with. It's a much deeper argument than simply turnout.


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## nikkimariet (31 March 2011)

siennamum said:



			IS she?

For some reason I thought she was Princess Sparkle's mum....
		
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My mum can barely work a mobile phone.


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## nikkimariet (31 March 2011)

glitterbug said:



			I don't think she is 13, also I think she is Princess Sparkles sister although I may be wrong 

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I am 21. And am the younger sister of PS.


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## nikkimariet (31 March 2011)

quirky said:



			I stand corrected , she is more like 21 .
Maybe it was the posting style that made me think she was 13 .
		
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*raises eyebrow*


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## Allover (31 March 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			*raises eyebrow*
		
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I know, i mean really!!!


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## nikkimariet (31 March 2011)

Amaranta said:



			I get what NM is trying to say as I feel the same way, I, personally like my horses to be out as much as possible, but we have to accept that because of the vast sums of money involved, owners of competition horses are loathe to turn out.  Having had one horse break a leg and another damage a suspensory ligament from accidents in the field, I can, kind of, understand this.

UK horses are lucky in that they live in a culture which turns out their horses, on the continent it is very different and when these horses are imported, time has to be taken in introducing them to turn out.

As for Totilas, he receives the best of care and I would rather see a horse treated like him than see one abandoned to starve in a field.
		
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Yep.


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## nikkimariet (31 March 2011)

AshTay said:



			Or have they never seen films?
		
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Lol. Because movies are not real?


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## Natch (31 March 2011)

Some reading:

Temporary Turnout for Free Exercise in Groups: Effects on the Behavior of Competition Horses Housed in Single Stalls

Managing Horses in Groups to
Improve Horse Welfare and
Human Safety

Gastric ulceration in the mature horse - pasture feeding is associated with the lowest incidence of gastric ulcers

Behavioural and physiological response to stabling in naieve horses

Stabling is associated with airway inflammation


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## EstherYoung (31 March 2011)

Marthe Kiley Worthington collated a fair old bit of research in her books, too.


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## Allover (31 March 2011)

This is quite a good link so far...............

http://www.ker.com/library/advances/310.pdf


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## amandap (31 March 2011)

Thanks for the links guys. Some reading to do.

Marthe Kylie Worthingtons books are definitely worth a read.


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## Tinypony (31 March 2011)

Interesting thread.  Most of it.
Will look at those links, thanks for posting.


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## POLLDARK (1 April 2011)

If you knew someone who kept their dog in a crate night & day just let out for a short while to do some obedience training(no free time for it to bond with another animal or human) would you be happy to see it carry on. I don't think so. A decent sized dog crate is relative to a horse in a 12 X 12 stable. Both the dog & the horse can be very valuable but they are still anilmals with pack/herd needs.  Some could become very introverted, perhaps more trainable as depression can lead to not being able to think for its' self. Others could become hyper when released but neither type would be in a balanced state of mind. Certainly not happy.


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## FrodoBeutlin (1 April 2011)

POLLDARK said:



			If you knew someone who kept their dog in a crate night & day just let out for a short while to do some obedience training(no free time for it to bond with another animal or human) would you be happy to see it carry on.
		
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LOL, there are threads in AAD which have advocated precisely this, and nobody seems to be shocked


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## AshTay (1 April 2011)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			No, definitely not dressage horses. Not horses which cost £500k to 1 million and are competing internationally.

Retired dressage horses, maybe. 

(To be fair, I have never seen pictures of Olympic-level dressage horses grazing in a field either. The only one I have heard of was Escapado, the exception that proves the rule!)
		
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But they branded *you* cruel for turning your (more sensibly priced?) horse out like they didn't realise that horses *could* spend time outside of a stable and without being led/ridden by someone. Is their idea of what a horse should be so far removed from what a horse actually is that they call you cruel?

(And I'm deducing that your horse isn't a £500K-£1 million wonder horse only because you say you've never seen one grazing either and yours get to graze )

Maybe I'll post them some DVDs


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## Nocturnal (1 April 2011)

Naturally said:



			Some reading:

Temporary Turnout for Free Exercise in Groups: Effects on the Behavior of Competition Horses Housed in Single Stalls

Managing Horses in Groups to
Improve Horse Welfare and
Human Safety

Gastric ulceration in the mature horse - pasture feeding is associated with the lowest incidence of gastric ulcers

Behavioural and physiological response to stabling in naieve horses

Stabling is associated with airway inflammation

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Thanks for posting links, some interesting reading for the weekend.


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## FrodoBeutlin (1 April 2011)

No offence taken AshTay, both horses cost less than £10k!   

The cruelty bit is because people are convinced that the horses *are* happier in a stable. You have no idea how ingrained it is!

Another anecdote -- after I moved to said high-performance yard, I was complaining about the lack of paddocks, and an old trainer of mine replied (and I quote): "Poor horse, he is working so hard now, just let him rest in his stable when he's not working!!" And she was an otherwise brilliant person (she wasn't against turnout, she encouraged people to go hacking etc). But still, she thought that a hard-working horse would be happier stuck in a stable rather than grazing ...


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## caterpillar (1 April 2011)

nikkimariet said:



			I think you'll find that most of the people who disagree with you are happy hackers who have no concept of competition training.
		
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And how do you know this?
I'm surprised that you can type your replies as you are so far up your own a***.


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## TGM (1 April 2011)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			LOL, there are threads in AAD which have advocated precisely this, and nobody seems to be shocked 

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Blimey, I must have missed these and I am sucker for a good old 'crate debate'!  What was the justification for crating a dog so extensively?


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## Spudlet (1 April 2011)

TGM said:



			Blimey, I must have missed these and I am sucker for a good old 'crate debate'!  What was the justification for crating a dog so extensively?
		
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I saw someone getting roundly slated for this, and the Great Crate Debate is an ongoing one of course rolleyes:) but I hadn't seen anyone advocate such an extreme approach without living to regret it


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## FrodoBeutlin (1 April 2011)

No TGM, I admit I exaggerated a little -- I shouldn't have gone as far as saying people were advocating that, but there have definitely been threads in AAD where a poster said their dog was crated all day and night because they were at work at night, and only let out once early in the morning, once at midday (both quick toilet breaks) and then for an hour or so at night, and that definitely did not cause the kind of uproar that Totilas' lifestyle has caused on here


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## Nocturnal (1 April 2011)

Out of interest, how do people feel about hamsters/mice/rats/gerbils/chinchillas/guinnea pigs/rabbits/birds/fish etc that get a lot less time out of their cages/tanks than Totilas does out of his stable?


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## Allover (1 April 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Out of interest, how do people feel about hamsters/mice/rats/gerbils/chinchillas/guinnea pigs/rabbits/birds/fish etc that get a lot less time out of their cages/tanks than Totilas does out of his stable?
		
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I hate to see birds in cages and i dont like seeing any animal in an enviroment that is not stimulating.

I am presuming though that the hamsters\mice\rats\gerbils etc etc are not put under the mental and physical strain that our equine athletes are


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## Nocturnal (1 April 2011)

Allover said:



			I hate to see birds in cages and i dont like seeing any animal in an enviroment that is not stimulating.

I am presuming though that the hamsters\mice\rats\gerbils etc etc are not put under the mental and physical strain that our equine athletes are 

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Interesting, thanks. So you feel that its because they're working animals that they need chillout time, and they get that best by being turned out? Is it the freedom to run/buck/roll etc, or the interaction with other horses that is most important, do you think?


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## FrodoBeutlin (1 April 2011)

An interesting photo: an article in Reiter Revue (one of the biggest equestrian magazines in Germany) about the Classical Sales Warendorf auction (whose dressage horses are turned out in big grass paddocks daily, during the training period preceding  the auction)

Tellingly, the title (in a clearly shocked tone!) reads "150k euros in the field!"


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## AshTay (1 April 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Out of interest, how do people feel about hamsters/mice/rats/gerbils/chinchillas/guinnea pigs/rabbits/birds/fish etc that get a lot less time out of their cages/tanks than Totilas does out of his stable?
		
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I don't like to see any animal caged, especially birds! But it's not really a good comparison because the sizes of cages these animals are most often kept in are relatively large for the animal compared to the size of a stable to a horse. When I think about it - my horse stood in his stable is equivalent to me being confined to our small outdoor toilet. The hamster I used to keep had a rotastak cage and for a similar comparison it would be like me being confined to a large-ish 5 bedroom house.

Most pet rabbits and guinea pigs get a very bad deal in my opinion.


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## zefragile (1 April 2011)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			No TGM, I admit I exaggerated a little -- I shouldn't have gone as far as saying people were advocating that, but there have definitely been threads in AAD where a poster said their dog was crated all day and night because they were at work at night, and only let out once early in the morning, once at midday (both quick toilet breaks) and then for an hour or so at night, and that definitely did not cause the kind of uproar that Totilas' lifestyle has caused on here 

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I expect that News Lounge has a higher number of readers and posters than AAD, so uproar is far more likely!


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## Allover (1 April 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Interesting, thanks. So you feel that its because they're working animals that they need chillout time, and they get that best by being turned out? Is it the freedom to run/buck/roll etc, or the interaction with other horses that is most important, do you think?
		
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All of it, there is also the fact that all the horses systems benefit from being turned out.


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## cptrayes (1 April 2011)

Going back to the shoes for a moment 

1) heavy shoes are used to increase dressage horses leg lift and a heart bar is the heaviest shoe you can get. Lots of dressage horses wear them, often on the back (which would be very unusual in a riding horse).

2) I'm a barefooter but if a horse of mine was shod I would choose heart bars because the frog is bearing weight if they are replaced often enough and it is actually the closest you can get to the way the foot is meant to work while still having a shoe on.

He may be wearing heart bars for either or both of these reasons.


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## Natch (1 April 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			Out of interest, how do people feel about hamsters/mice/rats/gerbils/chinchillas/guinnea pigs/rabbits/birds/fish etc that get a lot less time out of their cages/tanks than Totilas does out of his stable?
		
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AshTay said:



			it's not really a good comparison because the sizes of cages these animals are most often kept in are relatively large for the animal compared to the size of a stable to a horse.
		
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First of all, what AshTray says  and then I think if people must keep small animals, I much prefer to see them in big cages/runs/tanks, with plenty of suitable mental and physical stimulation (e.g. enough bedding to burrow in and toilet tubes/multi layers to explore) and company where appropriate. Fish in a cramped bare tank which is constantly lit up is a major peeve of mine! 

Its a bit like putting Totilas in a stable which was the size of a good indoor school, with a patch of dirt to roll in, different surfaces to scratch on, mirrors, things to walk on/under, and various other things to explore, maybe a ball which dispenses food to push around and other tactile stimulus. Obviously being a stallion I think we have to put aside the company thing, but then again being able to see other horses would/will be a compromise.

If I thought he was being kept in conditions like the above, I'd be a bit happier that he didn't get turnout. Then again, if you're doing all that, what is the reason you're not turning out again?

CPTrays, to go off on even more of a tangent, o)  I thought that heart bars are more restricting than standard shoes because they don't allow ANY expansion and contraction of the heel, whereas standard shoes are thought  to allow a small amount of it? 'tis what Sarah Braithwaite said to me recently


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## cptrayes (1 April 2011)

Naturally said:



			CPTrayes, to go off on even more of a tangent, o)  I thought that heart bars are more restricting than standard shoes because they don't allow ANY expansion and contraction of the heel, whereas standard shoes are thought  to allow a small amount of it? 'tis what Sarah Braithwaite said to me recently 

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Personally, I don't believe that is correct. Sarah isn't a farrier, she's a barefooter, for people who don't know the name. Heart bar shoes are attached with nails towards the toe just like any other shoe that is nailed on. There is no reason that I can see why the foot would not flex sideways at the heel just like it does on any other nailed on shoe, provided the frog is not jammed desperately tight against the shoe (it would be very difficult to fit them that tight, and it soon wouldn't be in any case, when the foot has grown for a day or two). The great advantage of them is that on flat ground they give stimulus to the frog that is not there with a standard shoe, which is precisely why they often work as remedial shoes to rebuild the heels of a horse with weak heels. For them to have that effect, I'm pretty sure that the heel must be flexing.  A farrier's point on view on this might be interesting.


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## Natch (1 April 2011)

Interesting, thank you.


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## Clodagh (1 April 2011)

Haven't read it all so sorry if I am duplicating but during Cheltenham coverage they had some film of Garde Champetre (spelling? Sorry) turned out with some other racehorses, in winter, rolling and play fighting. He was the most expensive NH horse ever sold when he went through the sales.
Horses shoud be out at least daily for an hour.


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## POLLDARK (2 April 2011)

Just to throw in a different parallel to provoke thought. If Joe Public visited a zoo where the Zebra (or any mammal) were kept stabled or caged except for a short period when they were taken out individually to work. Still not having a chance to bond with another animal or human. How long do you think the zoo would be allowed to continue ?


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## amandap (2 April 2011)

POLLDARK said:



			Just to throw in a different parallel to provoke thought. If Joe Public visited a zoo where the Zebra (or any mammal) were kept stabled or caged except for a short period when they were taken out individually to work. Still not having a chance to bond with another animal or human. How long do you think the zoo would be allowed to continue ?
		
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Good parallel POLDARK. Zoos have to maintain much higher standards in space and environmental, social enrichment. 
This is why I think these threads are good, people with different and opposing views discussing gets everyone thinking.


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## Tinypony (2 April 2011)

In stables we have vices, in zoos it's called zoochosis.


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## amandap (2 April 2011)

That's a new term to me Tinypony. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-zoochosis.htm

Yes, both have steriotypical behaviours but Zoo's are actively trying to avoid this. I am not including my views on captive wild animals here.


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## Tinypony (2 April 2011)

I delivered a little factual talk about stable "vices" a few times, to therapists who weren't particularly horsey, but who were sometimes asked to work with horses.  People like Bach practitioners.  Along the lines of what to look for when invited to visit a horse.  A slot on Zoochosis before dealing with equines always had a stunning impact.
Funny how something can be obvious to people who don't know much about horses, but ignored by the experts.  (And "professionals").


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## Allover (2 April 2011)

Good one Polldark!

What we must also keep in mind is that the vices are a symptom of an underlying issue which a change of managment can often prevent.

I remember watching a programme on the pshycological effects on a species of rodent, one group were given no stimulation whatsoever and the other group were given larger cages and toys and also interaction with others. Then comparisons were made into the behaviours of each group, can you guess the outcome!!!!!


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## mystiandsunny (2 April 2011)

Interesting - I'd love to know exactly why he wears those shoes.

Regarding the turnout debate - where injury is a concern, throughout the 28 years I have been around horses, the most frequent injuries in the field have been from those horses who only go out for part of the day, in a herd which is not stable and consistent year-round.  Some of those injuries are from high-jinks, and some from disagreements which would not arise in a stable herd hierarchy.  Horses who live out 24/7 in a stable herd have a more sedate, gentle lifestyle, and indeed 24/7 turnout is recommended for the gradual healing of many injuries that would not successfully heal on box-rest.  Of course, the field has to be safe too...


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## FrodoBeutlin (16 April 2011)

Sorry to bring this up again but have just seen this interesting article about Toto's new shoes.

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/


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