# Hunting on land without permission



## Polos Mum (7 January 2014)

Possibly not the right place to ask but struggling to find anything elsewhere - my neighbour is at the end of his teather with our local hunt coming over his land when he has expressly and specifically asked them not to, he's not anti hunting but thye cause a lot of mess (25 hounds and 30+ horses today at full pelt through the middle of 3 cropped fields today) 

I keep suggesting he talks to them and repeats his request for them not to use the land when it's wet but he wants to get the law involved - any sensible middle ground suggestions?


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## MerrySherryRider (7 January 2014)

Probably a solicitors letter would be his best bet if previous requests have been ignored.


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## Kaylum (7 January 2014)

Yes a recorded delivery solicitors letter along with a bill for the damage.


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## Orangehorse (7 January 2014)

I think it is possible to get something, an Injunction?  But that is going to be costly as it is a civil matter, not anything that police would be interested in.  And then there is the problem of enforcement.  He could sue for damages too, if he could prove it.  But how much actual damage has been done?

The best thing would be to telephone the Master and give him/her a blast.


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## webble (7 January 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			Probably a solicitors letter would be his best bet if previous requests have been ignored.
		
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Agreed rude and ignorant of them if you ask me. Surely its trespass?


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## L&M (7 January 2014)

Padlock the gates?

I hunt regularily and we are always made aware of land we are NOT to cross - occasionally hunds will run amok and our huntsman will go on foot to retreive them.

As a landowner it might be an idea to contact the MFHA and lodge a complaint with them - I assume they would take very dim view on the actions of this hunt and take the issue up.

I would be very angry if this was my land and is sadly what gives hunts a bad reputation.


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## Doormouse (7 January 2014)

The best thing he can do is find out the name of the Chairman of the hunt and write him a strongly worded letter explaining that he doesn't want hounds or the field across his land and that despite his repeatedly saying this he is being ignored. Hopefully if he makes it clear that his next step would be to a solicitor the correct people will be told that they must not cross his land.


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## zaminda (7 January 2014)

If they have gone through crops/damaged fencing they could be charged with criminal damage, so it would be a police matter.
I think firstly I would be ringing the master and having a serious chat, they don't do themselves any favours by behaving like this, something which they really should take on board more.


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## Polos Mum (7 January 2014)

Sadly it's all agricultural land so no gate/ fencing  - every time it happens he calls and gives them a clear and firm expression of his displeasure !!  To no effect sadly. 

There is no such thing as tresspass 

Criminal damage requires proof of intent to cause damage - clearly this isn't their intent - just a sad consequence

I do appreciate a couple of staff to collect hounds but this was everyone today and through the middle of crops not even around the edge. 

Maybe a bill might make them remember next time?


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## MerrySherryRider (7 January 2014)

Reminds me of the photo posted on here a couple of years ago. Lovely picture of the hunt riding across a field but ignoring a sign in the foreground saying something like ' Hunt do not ride across this land'.


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## zaminda (7 January 2014)

I would suggest the fact they ride straight across the crops shows intent to cause damage, after all what else is going to happen in this weather!! Plus surely those who live in the countryside understand about riding ROUND the crops!! Beggars belief. If they won't listen its time to involve solicitors.


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## Goldenstar (7 January 2014)

Does he own the sporting rights on his land?


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## Polos Mum (7 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Does he own the gaming rights on his land?
		
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Not sure - I'd have thought so, would it make a difference if he didn't?


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## Goldenstar (7 January 2014)

Polos Mum said:



			Not sure - I'd have thought so, would it make a difference if he didn't?
		
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Of course , if the sporting ( the rights to hunt and shoot game ) belong to someone esle they have the right to exercise them .
It's still bad manners though IMO.
If he's a tenant it's very common for the sporting rights to be exercised by the land lord and not be included in the tenancy,


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## wench (7 January 2014)

Just what I was going to say Goldenstar. If he doesn't own the rights he may be as well contacting the landlord first.

And no such thing as trespass??? I think there is... Is a tort...


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## Kick On (7 January 2014)

Some land do have covents on them for sporting right, do he own land or rent? It is common land as you say there are no gates? and they can't transpass? confused need to check deeds

I would defo go down the route of Chairman or MFHA, as he clearly expressed that the hounds are not welcomed, due crops. Normal hunt can't operate without landowner permission? so again confused  I hope it does get resolved


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## Cinnamontoast (7 January 2014)

Are you in Scotland, OP, to say there's no such thing as trespass? I know the right to roam is very much in force up there, but a field of horses and hounds is not on, surely?


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## Polos Mum (7 January 2014)

Oh right sorry - he owns the freehold, holds shoots himself and lets people come on to shoot the deer so yep he owns the rights - there are no rights of way over his land either (footpaths or bridleways) , it's not common land - just typical in this area for land not to be fenced (crops tend not to wander off ;0) )

And again sorry to be clear - there is nothing the police will consider as trespass


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## Goldenstar (7 January 2014)

The sporting rights can be split so he would need to be clear about that.
He needs to approach the chairman of the hunt directly .
I think MFHA has a code of conduct but don't know much about that I am afraid .
I know the hunt MrGS is on the committee of are very careful not to go where there are issues .
I am a member of the countryside alliance and when we had an issue with a wayward shoot they where very helpful in helping me get it sorted.


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## Polos Mum (7 January 2014)

Thanks Goldenstar - the countryside alliance is a great suggestion 

They are not allowed on the land either side and the next farm over either so I suspect this particular hunt is less careful rather than my neighbour just being unlucky.


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## OrangePepper (7 January 2014)

I would suggest that he writes to the secretary of the hunt concerned and asks for a written reply acknowledging receipt of his letter and agreeing to comply with his request not to hunt across his land.

If this is not forthcoming then write a letter to the fox hunting association advising them of the less than courteous behaviour of this particular hunt and asking them to contact them and let him know the outcome.

They can then ensure that this hunt toes the line.


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## Maesfen (7 January 2014)

Is this a proper foxhound pack or a drag/bloodhounds pack and whereabouts are you as that depends on which governing body you could complain to; no good going to MFHA when it's a drag or bloodhound pack?
I echo to find out who the Masters and the chairman are plus the secretary and to ring them all up; if he has neighbours that hunt with them he should make his feelings made to them too as nobody wants unhappy neighbours; I know ours locally go out of their way to keep neighbouring farmers happy.


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## pip6 (8 January 2014)

Dreadful manners on the hunt, fully deserve the repair bill. Even if the hounds stray that is no reason for the field to follow them through the middle of fields!

Where I am we have excellent relations with the local hunt, even though we don't allow them over our land. Luckily we can padlock all gates, but the hounds could get over the devon banks if they wished, but they are capably controlled by the hunt staff. Not only do they never trespass, they also let us know when they are hunting in the area which allows us to decide how to manage our horses.


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## hobo (8 January 2014)

OrangePepper said:



			I would suggest that he writes to the secretary of the hunt concerned and asks for a written reply acknowledging receipt of his letter and agreeing to comply with his request not to hunt across his land.

If this is not forthcoming then write a letter to the fox hunting association advising them of the less than courteous behaviour of this particular hunt and asking them to contact them and let him know the outcome.

They can then ensure that this hunt toes the line.
		
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This.


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## cornbrodolly (8 January 2014)

Hunts dislike electric fencing- so I suggest he fences, with posts, not the little stakes, all around the land, and across into a few little paddocks- he ll never see riders on there again


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## Marydoll (8 January 2014)

And people wonder why riders and hunting gets a bad name in some areas !  
It doesnt sound like there are shared sporting rights on the land, im pretty sure you'd be informed of this when buying.
I would be livid at this continuing, lets not forget, its not a one off, if this was my land I would expect full recompense to make things right. Why should the land owner who explicitly requests no hunt to pass over the land be out of pocket at his crops being trashed. 
And why should he need to put up electric fencing to keep out people who really shouldnt be there.
A strongly wordrd recorded solicitors letter to the hunt master is the way to go with an enclosed bill for all damages and losses, as was suggested further up the thread


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## be positive (8 January 2014)

cornbrodolly said:



			Hunts dislike electric fencing- so I suggest he fences, with posts, not the little stakes, all around the land, and across into a few little paddocks- he ll never see riders on there again
		
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He should not have to go to the trouble and expense to keep them off his land, while it may prove difficult to stop hounds at times there is no excuse for the field to gallop across the land if he has asked them not to go on it,  the masters and hunt chairman should know where they are not welcome and the field master should be able to keep the field under control even if the huntsman needs to go and retrieve the hounds.


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## Polos Mum (8 January 2014)

cornbrodolly said:



			Hunts dislike electric fencing- so I suggest he fences, with posts, not the little stakes, all around the land, and across into a few little paddocks- he ll never see riders on there again
		
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He has around 250 acres I can't imagine the cost or time/ hassle of having to put up electric fence round the outside of it and make gates so he can get in and out where he needs to, and keep checking it as with all the wind we've had recently my wooden post and electric around 12 acres takes a bit of tidying up each morning! 

Thanks all - I've got the name and number of the chairman for him and suggest he speaks to the MFHA and countryside alliance for advice - it's a shame because they are in other ways lovely to deal with - always e-mail to let everyone know they are in the area so we can keep horses in if needed and when I've collected a stray hound and called them to collect it they came over a few days later with a box of chocolates to say thank you.


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## Tiddlypom (8 January 2014)

Sounds like you are on the case, now. How incredibly rude of the hunt to ride over land which they have been specifically asked to avoid. 

I have previously also written to the the editor of Horse and Hound naming and shaming a local hunt which I was having repeated problems with, and sent a copy of this communication to the hunt to show them that I meant business, and would not be fobbed off with yet more false, weasel words of reassurance.

Some hunts are their own worst enemies.


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## Patterdale (8 January 2014)

Never heard of anything like this! (Not saying its not true though OP!)
Is he quite timid? Dreadful manners from the hunt of course, but I know if my OH were to make a call like that he'd only have to make it the once...

Good luck with the mfha


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## Isbister (8 January 2014)

Polos Mum said:



			S...

There is no such thing as tresspass 

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Where do you get that idea from? The law of trespass is fairly straightforward and the nuisance you describe does seem to be a straightforward case of trespass, aggravated by the fact that the hunt had previously been warned off. It would be perfectly in order for the hunt to be presented with a bill for any damage or loss of amenity that they have caused. Money talks. Most hunts bend over backwards to avoid this sort of situation and I can't understand why the MFH allowed it to happen. 

The police would be unlikely to take an interest - this is a civil matter and ultimately the remedy lies in the civil courts should your friend wish to pursue the matter.


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## Polos Mum (8 January 2014)

Patterdale said:



			Is he quite timid?
		
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Do you know him too??  He's lovely but I agree if I'd have called them they'd not be back..... but it's entirely possible he's spoken to the wrong person and not been firm enough - he doesn't really do angry (until yesterday afternoon that is !!)


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## Ditchjumper2 (8 January 2014)

Agree totally unacceptable behaviour. We always know where we can / can't go. I am not saying that mistakes never happen but should be rectified. With regards to going across his fields. Were they on the tramlines? If we cross fields rather than go round we go in the tramlines...no excuse when you are not even supposed to be there....but may explain why they went across. We would only do that on beet or rape.


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## Countryman (8 January 2014)

This sounds absolutely mad! Hunts cannot expect to provide good sport if they refuse to engage with their farmers and landowners, and that means respecting their wishes when land is closed to the hunt. And to ride straight over sown fields? I can't imagine what was going through their minds. Most hunts try to avoid this situation at all costs, and if they ever do inadvertently stray, send a Master round the next day to explain and apologise. I'd second the opinions of others who say a letter to the Chairman or Master is necessary; this is how hunting gives itself a bad name.


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## Alec Swan (8 January 2014)

Such behaviour is disgraceful.  The steps to take;

1.  A letter with a claim for crop damage to the Master.

If that's ignored,  then,

2.  The very same letter to the MFHA.

If that doesn't work,  and it will,  then,

3.  The Local and if need's be,  the National press.

Those who hunt do so by consent,  not by right.  this is 2014 not 1714.  We've moved on,  a bit.

Alec.


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## cptrayes (8 January 2014)

Polos Mum said:



			There is no such thing as tresspass
		
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Yes there is, it is a civil offence and you can sue if damage was caused.





			Criminal damage requires proof of intent to cause damage - clearly this isn't their intent - just a sad consequence
		
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I'm not sure this is correct. Reckless behaviour that results in damage can, I think, be criminal damage.


This behaviour appears to me to be getting into the realms of harassment and your neighbour might ask the police to take action under the harassment laws. They may also be able to issue a restraining order.


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## Countryman (8 January 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			Such behaviour is disgraceful.  The steps to take;

1.  A letter with a claim for crop damage to the Master.

If that's ignored,  then,

2.  The very same letter to the MFHA.

If that doesn't work,  and it will,  then,

3.  The Local and if need's be,  the National press.

Those who hunt do so by consent,  not by right.  this is 2014 not 1714.  We've moved on,  a bit.

Alec.
		
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I'd add, maybe copy the letter to the Hunt Chairman, to the Hunt Masters- who would have been in charge on the day - in addition to the MFHA. This behaviour sounds crazy and utterly unjustified. While all hunts may occasionally stray, this usually entails two riders cutting across a smallholding-still going round the field margins-to stop hounds getting onto a main road - and this only occurs once every few years and should be followed up with fulsome apologies and visits by the Master.


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## Clodagh (10 January 2014)

The CA will, I imagine, be as much use as a chocolate teapot. I would go to the MFHA, they are the governing body of hunting and they can and do kick butt when necessary. Which hunt is it? someone on here must hunt with them or know someone that does?


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## Goldenstar (10 January 2014)

Clodagh said:



			The CA will, I imagine, be as much use as a chocolate teapot. I would go to the MFHA, they are the governing body of hunting and they can and do kick butt when necessary. Which hunt is it? someone on here must hunt with them or know someone that does?
		
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I have to say when I had my issues with a shoot the CA where fantasic they took me through how everything worked with a shoot want they can and can't do when they are exercising rights near people's homes and gardens and gave me all the imformation I needed to deal with the issue myself .
Which armed with what they had explained I did .


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## Goldenstar (10 January 2014)

PM has never said who the landowner spoke to it could just have been random followers perhaps even just paying cap for a day we just don't know.
I just can't believer that proper approaches to the apporiate people have produced no result it just so different to my experiance of how these things work.


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## Daddy_Long_Legs (27 January 2014)

That is appalling behaviour on behalf of the hunt. Solicitors l;etter and bill for damage to crops and send it to all the masters!!


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## Polos Mum (27 January 2014)

My neighbour is waiting for response from master, it was the secretary he dealt with previously.  

As an aside the local police are now being informed about meets as this particular hunt are causing so many complaints to be made to them about using land without permission. 
Sadly I think this hunt is not helping with the reputation of well meaning packs.


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## Herne (4 February 2014)

Hi, Polos Mum,

As an MFH of many years' experience, if you want to PM me some details, I will see if I can have a word in the right ears.


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## Judgemental (5 February 2014)

Oh for goodness sake, what is the matter with all you people, posting on this forum and having a whinge one way and another about hunt's without naming them.

It means nothing and is pointless. If you are agrieved by the conduct or performance of a hunt, plainly state the name.

It is wet and pathetic to dance around whinging and complaining but not to name names.

Which goes to show you are intimidated by the hunt, which is another good reason to name names.

They are only a hunt, they are like any other organisation and have to provide value for money and abide by the law, coupled to normal hunting protocols and customs.

This is the second thread I have found this afternoon, where somebody is complaining yet leaves everybody in the dark as to which hunt is concerned.

Name and shame or put up and shut up.


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## Hackie (5 February 2014)

The OP was asking advice on what avenues to take to deal with a hunt and their ongoing behaviour, not necessarily 'whinging and complaining' for the sake of it, and there is no need to publically name them on the internet to do so.  Surely that's allowed?


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## Alec Swan (5 February 2014)

I'm staggered to hear that this complaint against a Pack (NOT a hunt FH'sS!),  rumbles on.  Judgemental is entirely correct.  If those responsible for such thoughtless and ignorant behaviour are to remain under the protection of anonymity,  then the claim is of no value.  

I'm sorry Polos Mum,  but if you expect clear advice from those (including an MFH,  I'd add),  who hold hunting dearly,  and if you refuse to be clear in your claim,  then your complaint is of no worth,  and you could be considered to be bent upon mischief,  rather than resolve.

If need's be,  PM those on here who may be able to assist you.  That or withdraw your claim.  'Tis up to you!

Alec.


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## Tiddlypom (5 February 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			if you refuse to be clear in your claim,  then your complaint is of no worth,  and you could be considered to be bent upon mischief,  rather than resolve.

If need's be,  PM those on here who may be able to assist you.  That or withdraw your claim.  'Tis up to you!

Alec.
		
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What's wrong with seeking general advice and guidance re this matter? Does the OP have to 'name and shame' the hunt in question? 

Polo's Mum does not seem to me to be 'bent on mischief' of any sort, Alec. Instead, I suspect that you are, in trying to provoke her to name the hunt.


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## Polos Mum (5 February 2014)

I'm not sure how naming the Pack (sorry) helps anyone answer my questions.  I was not complaining I was asking for advice of others who may have experienced similar.


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## Herne (5 February 2014)

Polos Mum said:



			I'm not sure how naming the Pack (sorry) helps anyone answer my questions.  I was not complaining I was asking for advice of others who may have experienced similar.
		
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I agree. I would have thought that "naming and shaming" is more open to malicious abuse than anonymous enquiries.

However, hypothetical questions and answers on here aren't going to help your specific problem either.

The best advice you have been given is to contact the Masters of Fox Hounds Association (http://www.mfha.org.uk/) and give them the specific details. 

(Or take up my earlier offer...)


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## Polos Mum (5 February 2014)

Herne,  many thanks I understand the situation is in hand. 

As an aside can you imagine if ever thread on here had to name names?  Every livery yard who shut turn out in terrible weather named or every livery client who left without paying full notice names - the site would be shut within hours by H&H worried about slander suits. 

Equally you don't need to live at 221B to look up some of my other threads and work out where I live and hence who local pack are.


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## Houndman (28 April 2014)

How did you get on?  Like has been said, a letter followed up with a phone call to the MFHA if the hunt didn't respond.  You should contact the Masters and the Secretary, not just one person.

Trouble is, most people riding over the land after the hounds wouldn't realise that the landowner didnt want people riding across it so it's not really fair to blame them all.  In reality it's probably just down to one person being at fault or not communicating with the others.


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## AengusOg (28 April 2014)

cinnamontoast said:



			Are you in Scotland, OP, to say there's no such thing as trespass? I know the right to roam is very much in force up there,
		
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There is no such thing as 'the right to roam' in Scotland. There is, however, a Right of Responsible Access.

Incidently, although the bulk of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 does not apply in Scotland,  those parts which relate to trespass do. Scots Law decrees that trespass is a civil matter in Scotland, unless the transgressor is in unlawful pursuit of game, ie poaching, in which case it becomes a police concern. Although the Scottish Land Reform Act superseded the trespass law in Scotland, non compliance with the terms of that act can still be termed 'trespass'.


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## Houndman (29 April 2014)

Best to keep at the MFHA and the hunt.  Solicitors can cost a fortune - expect to pay at least £180 for a letter to be sent.  If you decide to pursue a claim in court you have the small claims fee to pay, plus payment to a professional to come up with an amount to be claimed for crop damage, then there's payment for any enforcement, with no guarantee that you are going to recoup all your expenses.   The only people who win are the lawyers.

I know someone round here who has had an ongoing case with poachers trespassing on the land who have not actually been caught in the act and it's virtually impossible to do anything unless you can catch them at it when it then becomes a criminal matter.  Trespass onto land is fair enough in writing but you have to be able to quantify any damage to bring a case.  The only ways it can be considered criminal is with is people coming onto land to cause harrassment or stalking, such as where antis have been involved with harrassment of individuals or paparazzi have gone onto celebrities land, or theft (goods or poaching).

Another option you could take is send the hunt an invoice for the damage caused (but do not inflate this beyond what would be a reasonable cost to you in lost production and time or it will reflect badly on you with other people and your neighbours)


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## Ashley Stewart (19 June 2014)

Did you ever resolve this situation or go to the police? Damaging someone's property through recklessness is criminal damage regardless of any intention as per the Criminal Damage Act 1971. And trespassing on someone's property to commit criminal damage is criminal trespass which would allow an arrest simply for trespassing on your property.


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## Houndman (19 June 2014)

It's unlikely that the police would get involved unless significant damage is caused or that deliberate intent to damge property can be proven.  Trampling crops etc is difficult to quantify.  Trespass is a civil matter unless it can be proven that there was deliberate intent to cause damage / distress or that a significant amount of damage occurred.


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## Dry Rot (19 June 2014)

It is a longtime since I was involved with hunts and hunting but I think there is something called "hot pursuit". It is very difficult to stop a pack of hounds on a hot scent (just see how many posts there are about dear little Fido not coming to call!). Also, animals tend to repeat what works, witness the story of the fox that regularly ran along a railway track causing the death of several hounds run over by the train. So I would not be too hard on hounds crossing land. Riders following is another matter and that sounds like poor communications which is unforgivable in today's age of easy electronic communications.

As regards the damage, inconvenience, and upset, if it were my land and the hunt had been told they were banned, I would bill them. Very simple. And I'd bill them not just for the damage but for every penny of my time, telephone calls, loss of income, loss of cropping, disruption of my crop rotation, disruption of my business, and anything else I could think of! The law requires the aggrieved party is put back in the situation he was in before the trespass occurred -- in so far as money can do it.

BTW, I am very much pro hunt -- but not pro rudeness!


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## martlin (19 June 2014)

I know which pack it is, I would imagine they have paid out for damage by now, as they have in the past paid a fair chunk of compensation to me They had the brilliant idea to go straight through a 15 acre field of mine with 100 ewes around 2 weeks away from lambing... They also tried to leg it afterwards, but 2 of their hounds got stuck in fencing. They are well known in the area for causing trouble and having complete disregard for the farmers, land and everything else in their way.


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## Houndman (20 June 2014)

That would suggest that there are few farming members with that pack.........


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## Alec Swan (22 June 2014)

Houndman said:



			That would suggest that there are few farming members with that pack.........
		
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An interesting observation!  It would also prompt the question; 'Are there many Hunting Farmers,  these days,  or is it a case that for no other reason than 'tradition',  they allow a mounted field across their land'?  If I'm right in my supposition,  then it behoves ALL Masters to pay attention to the Ps&Qs of their occasionally mounted rabble.

Before I'm berated for the use of the word 'rabble',  there are times when it fits!

Alec.


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## Houndman (22 June 2014)

A glance at our membership list [Yorkshire] would suggest that at least three quarters of our members are hunting farmers and members of their families.  I would also consider our neighbouring hunts to have a similar proportion based on the people I know.  Our neighbour to the east I would estimate that almost all their members are involved in farming or related to those who are.


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