# Are Cavapoos healthier?



## Patchworkpony (10 June 2016)

Given that CKC are riddled with serious inherited health problems are Cavapoos less likely to carry so many unhealthy genes? Does anyone know what the odds are of getting a healthier dog and has anyone got one or know of one? What is their nature like and how intelligent are they?


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## Bosworth (10 June 2016)

nope, you have a totally unknown quantity in a mongrel/cross breed. It could have all the problems of a CKC, it could have all the problems of the Poodle. But the worst case scenario is it could have all the problems of both breed in together, and dont let anyone tell you otherwise. There is no such thing as cross breed vigour. It is just an urban myth put about by back street greeders who want to make money from the latest trendy cross breed. A decent breeder of CKC will have health checks done and the KC have those on the dog/bitches registration details so you can look back into the potential puppies line and see what health checks have been done. Witha cross breed you cannot do that as no registration for crossbreeds. The only check you can do is if the parents are both KC registered and you can see if they had the health checks done. However greeders tend not to bother with health checks as they cost money, and as they are purely breeding for money they are not going to bother spending any. If you want a cross breed why not look in rescue, there are loads of puppies in rescue every where and you have as much chance of them being as healthy as a dog by a back street greeder


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## Patchworkpony (10 June 2016)

Bosworth said:



			nope, you have a totally unknown quantity in a mongrel/cross breed. It could have all the problems of a CKC, it could have all the problems of the Poodle. But the worst case scenario is it could have all the problems of both breed in together, and dont let anyone tell you otherwise. There is no such thing as cross breed vigour. It is just an urban myth put about by back street greeders who want to make money from the latest trendy cross breed. A decent breeder of CKC will have health checks done and the KC have those on the dog/bitches registration details so you can look back into the potential puppies line and see what health checks have been done. Witha cross breed you cannot do that as no registration for crossbreeds. The only check you can do is if the parents are both KC registered and you can see if they had the health checks done. However greeders tend not to bother with health checks as they cost money, and as they are purely breeding for money they are not going to bother spending any. If you want a cross breed why not look in rescue, there are loads of puppies in rescue every where and you have as much chance of them being as healthy as a dog by a back street greeder
		
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 Thanks. That's exactly what my instinct told me. AND as for the price!!!


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## chillipup (10 June 2016)

Unless both parents are tested for known conditions particular to their individual breeds, acquiring the resulting offspring is going to be a bit of a lottery. I'd also presume that most respected dog breeder's, (who are likely to have the parents tested for hereditary diseases and can prove it) are unlikely to want to cross breed their pedigree bitch or dog. 

Even if both parents have been tested and proved clear for hereditary breed conditions, any pups produced could well have acquired a new problem not known before but as a direct result of such a mating.

Sorry if this sounds unhelpful it's just how I understand the situation. I'm sure there are others on the forum who own these breeds of dog and are able to offer more knowledgeable advise.


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## PucciNPoni (10 June 2016)

I agree with all that's been said about the health of crosses.  

I groom a couple cav x poodles and as far as nature goes, they're fairly sweet even tempered little dogs.  Coats are a bit of a nightmare.  Would rather have either a cavalier or a poodle (well I'd rather have a poodle  )  but cross breeds you can get some erm, interesting coats.


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## MurphysMinder (11 June 2016)

No.


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## Alec Swan (11 June 2016)

MurphysMinder said:



			No.   

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'Well that's not what the 'breeder' told me'! 

Alec.


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## Clodagh (11 June 2016)

I would have thought they would be slightly less likely to have that brain too big thing? Pot luck mainly though! I imagine they would be bred by people wanting to maximise the litters from a bitch as well, possibly.
As for coats, all the poodle crosses I know cost more than a poodle for coat maintenance.


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## PucciNPoni (11 June 2016)

Clodagh said:



			I would have thought they would be slightly less likely to have that brain too big thing? Pot luck mainly though! I imagine they would be bred by people wanting to maximise the litters from a bitch as well, possibly.
As for coats, all the poodle crosses I know cost more than a poodle for coat maintenance.
		
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I'm not sure about the lesser chance of syringomyelia  - the cav x poo's I've seen have had fairly cav shaped heads and if they had a poodly scull i'm not sure that's an improvement as poodles have a narrower scull.  So adding that to the mix, not sure if that's a healthy combination.

And yep, often the poodle mixes are more expensive to maintain because the coats are a nightmare.  Of course though you get the so called breeders who make statements like ~

1 - don't get them groomed til they're a year old, as it ruins the coat
2 - don't ever ever have them clipped short, as it ruins the coat
3 -  don't groom them more than 3 or 4x a year, as it ruins the coat
4 - only go to a groomer who uses scissors as clipping ruins the coat
5 - only go to a groomer who knows the breed standard style as anything else ruins the coat

I've heard all those and more.  Yet the owners seem to have no knowledge of having been instructed in using a brush/comb.  They are told that groomers just shave the dogs out of greed.  

oops, I'm ranting aren't I?  sorry.


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## Patchworkpony (11 June 2016)

Well that answers that then. I personally don't like them but owners I meet seem to rave about them - I thought maybe I was missing something.


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## PucciNPoni (11 June 2016)

Patchworkpony said:



			Well that answers that then. I personally don't like them but owners I meet seem to rave about them - I thought maybe I was missing something.
		
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Of course they're going to rave.  Dare I say that often they will be first time dog owners (at least in my experience the majority of owners of doodle type dogs are all first time dog owners) so what have they got to compare it to?

And who gets a dog and says "meh, yeah don't really like it".  

We all love our respective breed of dog.  


I do have a secret wee crush going on for a particular cross breed though.  I have met a few Lhasa x poodles.  The ones I have met were scrummy.  Groomed a wee totie pup yesterday and he was just perfect.  I've met a few others, possibly from the same breeder, one was lovely natured.  It's litter mate was an absolute horror but such a nicely put together dog and fab coat.  

But am I going to mate my bitch to a Lhasa?  Nae chance! LOL


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## Alec Swan (11 June 2016)

Patchworkpony said:



			Well that answers that then. I personally don't like them but owners I meet seem to rave about them - I thought maybe I was missing something.
		
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The two people who's opinions are generally of the least value,  are the breeder and the owner.

Alec.


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## Clodagh (11 June 2016)

PucciNPoni said:



			I'm not sure about the lesser chance of syringomyelia  - the cav x poo's I've seen have had fairly cav shaped heads and if they had a poodly scull i'm not sure that's an improvement as poodles have a narrower scull.  So adding that to the mix, not sure if that's a healthy combination.

And yep, often the poodle mixes are more expensive to maintain because the coats are a nightmare.  Of course though you get the so called breeders who make statements like ~

1 - don't get them groomed til they're a year old, as it ruins the coat
2 - don't ever ever have them clipped short, as it ruins the coat
3 -  don't groom them more than 3 or 4x a year, as it ruins the coat
4 - only go to a groomer who uses scissors as clipping ruins the coat
5 - only go to a groomer who knows the breed standard style as anything else ruins the coat

I've heard all those and more.  Yet the owners seem to have no knowledge of having been instructed in using a brush/comb.  They are told that groomers just shave the dogs out of greed.  

oops, I'm ranting aren't I?  sorry.
		
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Not cavapoos but three friend sof mine have cockerpoos and one has to be sedated and shaved every four weeks, the others aren't quite so bad but still get a close clip at least 4 weekly.


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## MotherOfChickens (11 June 2016)

A friend has recently bought a cockerpoo-very cute wee pup and yes, they're a first time owner. She's been quite poorly though with a mix of giardia and campylobacter-which can happen with any breed but its been a bit of a baptism of fire for them.

With all breed caveats aside, the majority of dogs are dogs are dogs are dogs. They are adaptable, companionable and have characters of their own and what we project onto them. And all puppies are adorable and we mostly get the dogs we deserve in the long run.


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## PucciNPoni (11 June 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			A friend has recently bought a cockerpoo-very cute wee pup and yes, they're a first time owner. She's been quite poorly though with a mix of giardia and campylobacter-which can happen with any breed but its been a bit of a baptism of fire for them.

With all breed caveats aside, the majority of dogs are dogs are dogs are dogs. They are adaptable, companionable and have characters of their own and what we project onto them. And all puppies are adorable and we mostly get the dogs we deserve in the long run.
		
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Yes you're right, they are mostly adaptable.  

What concerns me though is the number of people, who are first time puppy owners, that buy the cross breeds from those breeders who have them neutered at 6 weeks before they go home to a new owner.

So many of these little cross breeds (in my area) grow up with behaviour issues, which raises the question:  is it the early neutering or the fact that they're being mishandled by novice owners?


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## MotherOfChickens (11 June 2016)

I think my point (badly made on three hours sleep) is that given a suitable home, reasonable breeding (i.e. nothing too specialised) most dog breeds should make good family pets IMO.


I dunno, I think neutering at that age is abhorrent and while there are pros to neutering bitches young, owners need to be informed of the potential cons more as well-behavioural and medical. I no longer think neutering of dogs before they are full grown ( or at all for other than for medical or behavioural reasons) is ethical either-particularly in larger breeds. 

I can only say that the first time owners I know of recently have all done a lot research and done all the training and socialisation classes etc that have been recommended to them.

Of course there will those that don't, there always has been and always will, its just these days people have access to all sorts of breeds they didn't use to and now have animals that are permanent puppies mentally-can't be a good mix.


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## galaxy (11 June 2016)

Haven't met many of these different designer dogs. But have met a few 'cockerpoos' on the agility circuit. Sweet little dogs but sooooooo stubborn!!! They can be doing the nicest run and then as quick as a flick of a switch, that's it they've had enough and just stop! I know plenty of cockers and it doesn't come from their side as far as I've ever seen! Opinionated is how I would describe a cockerpoo! Lol


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## kerenza (12 June 2016)

You guys are so tough on cross breeds! My nine-year-old Collie x Springer is very happy, healthy and well put together. And I'm not a first time owner - I've had pure collies and springers before, as well as complete Heinz 57 mixes (rescue dogs).

I don't like the fashion of silly names and large price tags (along with often false claims, non-shedding etc) but it's sad to see all cross breeds tarred with the same brush.


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## ester (12 June 2016)

Well the post was about cavapoos specifically, which is a cross involving a dog with a whole heap of health issues that IMO shouldn't be bred to anything without the breed health tests.


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## kerenza (12 June 2016)

Well yes, but the thread did move on to mention other crosses. I do agree about Cavapoos - but actually neither breed are my cup of tea (which is a purely subjective opinion - and I also like to stick to breeds that, in theory at least, are less likely to have problems).

And having had both collies and springers, I stand by my personal opinion that they make a really good cross - both in looks, conformation, and temperament. 

(But yes, like all of us, I'm soppy about my own dog - so certainly not objective!)


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## Bosworth (12 June 2016)

i dont mind cross breeds or mongrels. Ive had lurchers and mongrels my self and i adored each dog for its self. What I loathe and detest are the back street breeders who breed the designer cross breeds with the stupid names and sell them to the ignorant people who believe the lies that they are told. Such as non shedding, hybrid vitality etc. When in fact all they are doing is breeding for money. Why cross a cocker with a poodle and claim it is non shedding, thats not true. Why not simply get a poodle, a schnauzer, a bedlington all of which are non shedding with known breed traits. An Ex's mother bought a cocker poo as she wanted a non shedding dog. What she got was a grooming nightmare, and she didnt groom it properly, as she didnt know how and didnt want to learn. So the dog was in a mess. But as she had paid £1300 for it it was a quality dog. I am convinced it had cocker rage as it would change from calm to aggressive in seconds, and she actually phoned round dog trainers to get a trainer who understood the breed characteristics. Well how can they, its a cross breed. And she was told working cocker cross when it was clearly show cocker cross. And the person who had bred it had told her it was a pedigree as its dam was a pedigree and so was its sire............. and she couldnt understand when I told her it was a cross breed not a pedigree. so whilever there are people out there who work hard to retain their ignorance, there are  people out there who will breed for greed not for the health or well being of the dogs. 

If I wanted a cross breed/mongrel I would go to rescue, yes they are an unknown quantity, but then so are the designer crossbreeds.


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## PucciNPoni (12 June 2016)

kerenza said:



			You guys are so tough on cross breeds! My nine-year-old Collie x Springer is very happy, healthy and well put together. And I'm not a first time owner - I've had pure collies and springers before, as well as complete Heinz 57 mixes (rescue dogs).

I don't like the fashion of silly names and large price tags (along with often false claims, non-shedding etc) but it's sad to see all cross breeds tarred with the same brush.
		
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I don't see anyone being tough on crossbreeds at all.  Just giving their formed opinion which was based on experiences which may be different to yours.  

For starters I wouldn't exactly call a collie x springer "designer" or even a "doodle type dog".  And I also didn't suggest that all owners of these dogs are first timers, I said in my experience they often are.  I have met a few collie x springers and they make smashing agility dogs.  But that still does not change my opinion of the health, temperament or coat issues that you might meet in the cute little xbreeds that are bred for money, rather than a real specific purpose in mind.  

So I think you may be getting a tad sensitive to the comments about cross breeds - you might even have seen my comment that I was rather enamoured with a Lhasa x poodle. I don't dislike cross breeds.  Heck I don't even dislike doodle types.  I do dislike some of the problems that come along with them which is caused by their breeders and / or their misinformed owners.


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## thewonderhorse (13 June 2016)

Nope. They will more than likely get the good and bad bits of both breeds. Give me a proper mongrel anyday


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## Alec Swan (13 June 2016)

kerenza said:



			You guys are so tough on cross breeds!  ..
		
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PucciNPoni said:



			I don't see anyone being tough on crossbreeds at all.  .. .
		
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I suspect that the answer is a combination of many factors;

The fact that mind-numbing prices are being asked for puppies which are probably of lesser 'real' value than the parents.

NO THOUGHT AT ALL seems to be given to the likely progeny,  often because the breeder hasn't a clue what they're doing,  but just as often because they don't care.

Flags are flown by those who promote the 'oos',  what ever they are,  but as a 'breed' (which they aren't),  the likelihood of replicating anything is highly unlikely.

I'm not too sure about health testing beyond the fact that I've never used a dog to breed with which has an obvious flaw.

.. the list goes on and on and with justification,  I'd say!

I've bred a fair few lurchers over the years,  and with some success.  Were I to re-start breeding,  then I'd expect pups to sell for about £150-200.  The problem,  as I see it is that those who breed these obscure cross-bred dogs,  do so for one purpose and one only,  to make money.  Breeding lurchers over the years probably cost me money,  and therein I believe,  lays the difference.  Had I bred to make money,  then failure would probably have been the end result,  with the dogs themselves so often being below par.  That said,  I do wonder at some of those who buy the designer-bred puppies and wonder if they may have been different following a better start. 

Alec.


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## PucciNPoni (13 June 2016)

I think that's just it Alec.  No matter what you're breeding, if you are doing it right you are trying to improve the lines and make the offspring better than the parents.  This is a costly endeavour, from selecting the sire, choosing which bitch to breed, doing health tests/screens, working trials/shows etc to see if the dog has the goods...and that's before the bitch is in pup.  

I have yet to hear of anyone GENUINELY breeding designer dogs who are "improving" their lines.  They talk the talk at times, but haven't seen them walk that walk, not properly.    The ones that make a big fuss about "protecting" their lines are using that as a "reason to neuter" at six weeks old before the pups go to new homes.


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## Cinnamontoast (13 June 2016)

Springers and collies are often bred, whether accidentally or otherwise, much like labs and springers, common cross due to the working dogs being together so much. I must take issue with the whole springer being very healthy: they are the 3rd most common breed in the UK (numerically registered, might have changed this year) and I see an awful lot of hip issues on the springer group on Facebook.


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## Clodagh (13 June 2016)

I think Alec's reply is a good one. Animals should be bred for health and to be fit for purpose. Any 'poo' should be sound and healthy to be a nice family pet.
Lurchers with poor conformation would not have survived to have been bred from, when did a foxhound ever need hip scoring? As we interfere with breeds and want them to meet a specific criteria that is not healthy we immediately make compromises. This is exaggerated when they are being bred for a name rather than any other value.


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## Clodagh (13 June 2016)

PucciNPoni said:



			I think that's just it Alec.  No matter what you're breeding, if you are doing it right you are trying to improve the lines and make the offspring better than the parents.  This is a costly endeavour, from selecting the sire, choosing which bitch to breed, doing health tests/screens, working trials/shows etc to see if the dog has the goods...and that's before the bitch is in pup.  

I have yet to hear of anyone GENUINELY breeding designer dogs who are "improving" their lines.  They talk the talk at times, but haven't seen them walk that walk, not properly.    The ones that make a big fuss about "protecting" their lines are using that as a "reason to neuter" at six weeks old before the pups go to new homes.
		
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I find it hard to believe any vet will neuter at 6 weeks, and yet say tail docking is wrong! Appalling.


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## PucciNPoni (13 June 2016)

Clodagh said:



			I find it hard to believe any vet will neuter at 6 weeks, and yet say tail docking is wrong! Appalling.
		
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I wish it wasn't true.  There is a large breeding kennel not far from me that does this as standard for pet homes and the vet is a local one in Edinburgh.  I could not say what that particular vet's stance on docking is, but they seem to do plenty of these very young neuters.


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## Alec Swan (13 June 2016)

Clodagh said:



			I find it hard to believe any vet will neuter at 6 weeks, and yet say tail docking is wrong! Appalling.
		
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I'd be surprised if the testes and ovaries in puppies so young could be 'found',  but if they can,  then there's a question for the Ethics Committee of the BVMA to answer,  isn't there?  

I'll admit that I do struggle with many of our 'modern' and presumably,  younger vets.  I'd be interested in the thoughts of Aru,  who's opinion I respect,  should she feel able to comment.

Alec.


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## ester (13 June 2016)

It is pretty standard in the US I think to neuter so young?


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## leo_04 (13 June 2016)

I am very biased as have an 8 year old Cavvie and have a Cavvie puppy coming home next week.  I do agree it can be a lottery but we have tried to find the right breeder and I hope we have-time will tell.  But I can vouch Cavvies are fantastic kind, fun loving dogs.  Our boy is energetic and can run around all day or happily have a duvet day if he fancies.  They are great with other dogs, humans and importantly children.  I would definitely recommend them but just be very sensible when it comes to choosing a pup.


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## MurphysMinder (14 June 2016)

leo_04 said:



			I am very biased as have an 8 year old Cavvie and have a Cavvie puppy coming home next week.  I do agree it can be a lottery but we have tried to find the right breeder and I hope we have-time will tell.  But I can vouch Cavvies are fantastic kind, fun loving dogs.  Our boy is energetic and can run around all day or happily have a duvet day if he fancies.  They are great with other dogs, humans and importantly children.  I would definitely recommend them but just be very sensible when it comes to choosing a pup.
		
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Aren't you referring to pure cavaliers though ?   The op is talking about crossbreeds.


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