# Physiotherapy- NAVP Vs. ACPAT



## Cocoa (12 October 2009)

Hi, I am new to the forum so please forgive me if I post this in the wrong place....

I am currently trying to decide on a physiotherapist for my horse and was wondering if anyone has any advice for me.

I want to know peoples opinions on whether or not you would use a NAVP registered physio or only ACPAT registered physio and the reason for this?


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## spaniel (12 October 2009)

Pick someone who is chartered and registered as a veterinary physiotherapist.  Ive seen some shocking therapists with any number of memberships to professional bodies so you need to look into the depth of the skills required for a proper qualification rather than letters after the names.


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## Bedlam (14 October 2009)

Rossdales specifically recommended an ACPAT physio for my mare post kissing spine operation. 

I'm very happy with her and would recommend her to anybody. I like the fact that they have a 'human' physio qualification and experience before going on to taking almost a masters in animal physio.


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## Tharg (16 October 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Pick someone who is chartered and registered as a veterinary physiotherapist.  Ive seen some shocking therapists with any number of memberships to professional bodies so you need to look into the depth of the skills required for a proper qualification rather than letters after the names. 

[/ QUOTE ]

+1


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## bonnie5362 (18 October 2009)

I am an ACPAT member and I must admit that the NAVP physios are just as good as the ACPAT ones.  Most started off as Vets or Vet Nurses.  I only do companion animals but an equine physio who works at one of the practices I do is an NAVP member and is very highly thought of by the vets.  My view is that as long as you ensure that your physio is an ACPAT or NAVP member you will get a professional service.  After all, many insurance companies now state that physio will only be paid for if it is provided by an ACPAT or NAVP member.  Surely they must know that their money is not being wasted????

I still say that the way forward here is for ACPAT and NAVP to get together and form a professional body that everyone can understand and have confidence in.


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## Cocoa (18 October 2009)

Thank you all for your opinions, especially Peter1000, it is very helpful to hear from an ACPAT member who recommends both organisations. I totally agree that both organisations should try to come together as it can be very confusing trying to decide who is best.


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## hat (18 October 2009)

I've used an NAVP physio and was highly delighted with her work. My vet recommended her and said he wouldn't use anyone else. My horse had kissing spines and she was working at the vet hospital with the surgeon. My horse is now working better than ever.


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## Doris68 (18 October 2009)

Agree with Spaniel - use only Chartered people.  I have (only once) used someone who was recommended to me and she was totally useless and rather weird in the things she did.  I believe 'alternative' might be the word.  I would say VERY alternative - she (allegedly) treated the horse (in my temporary absence) in about 5 minutes.......?? 
	
	
		
		
	


	









My lovely Chartered equine physio has truly worked wonders - thank you Jo!


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## bonnie5362 (18 October 2009)

I agree.  ACPAT and NAVP need to work together to make sure that all the charlatons get booted out.


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## EquineVet01 (19 October 2009)

I am an equine vet and I use 2 physios.  One is an ACPAT member and the other is an NAVP member.  They are both highly trained and skilled and very professional whch is important not only for me but for my clients and their horses.  I need to have confidence in those who I ask to provide supporting treatment, and I know that (even if I don't know the actual physio) if I refer to an ACPAT or NAVP member I can have complete confidence in their ability.  To become a member of either organisation not only do they have to have good first degrees but they have an MSc in Veterinary Physiotherapy.  This in my view makes members of both organisations streets ahead of anyone else.

My partners who deal with the companion animal side of the practice prefer to use the NAVP physio.  Their reasons for this are that they feel the NAVP physio has had far more hands on clinical training with animals than the ACPAT physio and is more versatile.  This is not to say that they do not feel that the ACPAT physio is professional, just the the NAVP physio is more skilled.

I am sorry to have gone into such length but I think this is a very important subject that needs to be aired.  Anyone who wants to seek the services of a properly trained and skilled physio should seek advice from their vet.  Many of my clients telephone me and I can recommend both of my physios with confidence.  As vets this is vitally important.


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## bonnie5362 (21 October 2009)

Thank you EquineVet01.  This is clearly a very sensible contribution to the debate.  Once again I urge ACPAT and NAVP to join forces and seek a proper register of qualified Veterinary Physiotherapists, associated to the RCVS.  That would stop all these "quacks" in one move.


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## sonyavetphysio (21 October 2009)

Hi, I have been reading the replies with interest. Currently there is no protection of title for veterinary or animal physiotherapists, only for human ones. This means that if you are human and you seek a physio you will only find a Chartered Physiotherapist, anyone else using the title is breaking the law. For animals however anyone can call themselves a physiotherapist wether they are trained or not. ACPAT only has Chartered Physiotherapists as its members,and is indeed a sub group of the Chartered Society of Physiotherapy, and these people have gone on to a post graduate masters degree, or equivalent, in veterinary physiotherapy. NAVP trains people from a variety of backgrounds. For this very reason the organisations cannot join together as the start point of the two groups is so different. Personally I would always recomend a chartered physiotherapist and ACPAT physios can all be found on www.acpat.co.uk and click on the Find a Physio tab.


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## Cocoa (21 October 2009)

This is exactly the sort of advice I was hoping for and it has helped me decide to follow the career path I was hoping for and study the new MSc in Veterinary Physiotherapy at Harper Adams uni to become NAVP registered. I was concerned that some vets would not recognise NAVP registered physios in the same light as ACPAT members but I did not want to study human physio first so now I am glad to have positive feedback from very reliable sources about NAVP therapists.

Thank you all!


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## spaniel (21 October 2009)

I would put very serious consideration into your decision.


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## EquineVet01 (21 October 2009)

I don't see why Little Miss Muppet should be concerned about studying to join NAVP.  Good luck to her and I wish her all the best.  All I can say is that if turns out anything like the NAVP physio my practice uses, she will be an excellent physio and will have a very positive impact on equine welfare.  To be quite frank I really don't know why ACPAT members get so sniffy about NAVP.  Surely the debate has to be about animal welfare, not personal interests.


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## spaniel (21 October 2009)

I dont think anyone is getting sniffy.   HOWEVER many horse owners who ride find it very beneficial if their therapists have an in depth knowledge of human physiology and biomechanics as well as an equine one given the close interaction involved.


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## sonyavetphysio (21 October 2009)

To respond to equinevet01 ACPAT members dont get 'sniffy' about NAVP physios, we all agree that the objective is animal welfare. It is also about high quality physiotherapy services. ACPAT memberrs will have undertaken at least six years of training to acheive their qualifications, NAVP members around two. Some NAVP members are indeed excellent practitioners but their depth of knowledge of physiotherapy and the interactive biomechanics between horse and rider is, of necessity, more limited.


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## annavetphysio (21 October 2009)

I voted for ACPAT as that is the organisation that I belong to.  But in saying that I think that each individual therapist will have strengths and weaknesses depending on their previous experience and where they are in their professional career.  

I was interested to see that 3 people have said they would not use a physio from NAVP or ACPAT?  I would like to know what level of physio you expect from someone who is not registered with a governing body at all?  ACPAT and NAVP therapists will have a standard to maintain in order to be registered and working in this profession.


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## lcarson (21 October 2009)

Anna, I read the 3rd choice as NEITHER ACPAT or NAVP but it actually says EITHER...!


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## kally (22 October 2009)

I am a chartered veterinary phsyiotherapist and am an ACPAT member, in my professional opinion i would always use a Chartered veterinary physiotherapist.

Professionally i have had many clients who have been referred to me after they have had other 'physios' to see their horses and have just created more problems. Some of which have been navp.

I would suggest you contact anyone you are planning to use and ask for references or to speak to other clients, any ACPAT physio would be happy to provide this information.


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## bonnie5362 (22 October 2009)

In reply to Sonya and in defence of my NAVP colleague, they do not do just 2 years training.  They have first degrees in an animal related subject plus post-graduate qualifications.  That also gives them 6 years training but solely with animals.  It is ACPAT who only does 2 years training with animals.  You cannot possibly suggest that Vet Nurses and Veterinary Surgeons are incapable of learning physiotherapy techniques.

This is what I find so intransigent on the part of ACPAT.  As I am a member of that organisation I would like to see it become a little more accommodating.  There is no call for NAVP and ACPAT to join together.  Just for them to talk about where they both see the profession being in a couple of years.  ACPAT cannot stand with its finger in the dam for ever.  Other, significantly less professional, organisations than ACPAT and NAVP are starting up and if nothing is done we will be overwhelmed by quacks.  This is the reason why ACPAT and NAVP must work together.


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## BrianJS (22 October 2009)

In response to EquineVet01 if he/she is most concerned about animal welfare then there is no question that ACPAT members have the best training etc in respect of physiotherapy treatment of animals. Whether someone is a member of ACPAT or NAVP they are working as a physiotherapist, and as sonyavetphysio has highlighted, ACPAT members have a minimum of 6 years training plus many years of working as a physio with people, whereas NAVP members have maybe 2 years part-time training. They may have good animal knowledge and skills, but its the practice of physiotherapy we're talking about. Why do people train with NAVP? Because its quicker and they can 'qualify' through a shortened route and circumvent proper physio training and qualification. 'Physiotherapist' is a protected title and as such ensures that people receive treatment from properly qualified, registered, regulated professionals. Unfortunately by adding 'Equine' or 'Veterinary' etc to that title gets through a loophole in the law, and that is what NAVP and their like take advantage of. NAVP members would never be able to treat people because to do so you have to have undergone a proper recognised training and registration, which is exactly what ACPAT members have. Why should animals receive any less professionalism in their physiotherapy treatment than a person would, which brings us back to our original point about animal welfare?
As a vet, I wonder whether EquineVet01 would be just as keen to see short 2 year part-time courses set up to train just about anyone to become vets? Maybe he/she might become just a bit 'sniffy' if they did.


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## kirsty83 (22 October 2009)

Please, please only choose a chartered physiotherapist to treat your horse.  They are the only people who are certified  with professional qualifications in both human and veterinary physiotherapy.  You can be confident they are insured and recognised by your insurance company!

If they are not CHARTERED they may never have trained in anything physiotherapy related or to an agreed standard
Kirsty


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## kkpc2247 (22 October 2009)

For me it has to be ACPAT all the way.

Whilst I do not doubt that most NAVP members have considerable experience with animals, I do have concerns that some of it's members are simply not qualified to the sane standard as ACPAT members in PHYSIOTHERAPY.

As far as I can tell, the chair of NAVP has no physiotherapy qualification whatsoever.

For my own peace of mind, I always choose an ACPAT physiotherapist to guarantee consistently high standards of treatment.


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## EquineVet01 (22 October 2009)

Quite frankly, I am aghast at the vitriol being levelled against NAVP by ACPAT members.  It is so completely unprofessional that my opinion of ACPAT has taken a nose-dive.  I see that no NAVP member has chosen to behave in the same manner for which I commend them.  I understand that "sonyavetphysio" is in fact the Chair of ACPAT and I call upon her to put a stop to this defamatory and unseemly behaviour by her members, and, if she is the professional that I hope she is, she will apologise on behalf of her members. 

I could relate in this forum the unhappy experiences of one of my colleagues with an ACPAT member at his previous practice but I consider myself to be above such petty behaviour.  What I am seeing posted on this forum is disgraceful.


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## bonnie5362 (22 October 2009)

I am also ashamed of my colleagues' behaviour and I offer an apology.  I would request my fellow ACPAT members to act more professionally.


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## EmmaSmith (22 October 2009)

I am finding this thread of particular interest. I am a veterinary nurse that has gone for a career change into veterinary physio. I am currently in my second year human physio degree- was planning to do it the 'ACPAT' way, when i started it the NAVP course wasn't offered as a masters programme. I did consider, and still am considering applying for the NAVP course instead- so to get both points of view is very interesting. It suprises me how dismissive ACPAT members are of those with NAVP qualifications and do wonder if this is really justified? After all both courses are at the same level of education!


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## JackieGrant (22 October 2009)

All qualified practitioners have something to offer. Both NAVP and ACPAT graduates have all undergone extensive training - maybe there needs to be some dialogue to standardise the training curriculum and course content. 

The use of the title 'Physiotherapist' is perhaps the sticking point for some, as it is a legally protected title in the human world - gained after considerable effort by the CSP - in order to ensure patients see properly qualified therapists. 

I'm not sure of the answers but patients' owners vote with their feet - if the results of treatment are good and the referring Veterinary Surgeon approves of the standard of treatment and professional liaison then the animal is being well cared for, surely that is the crux of the issue.


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## louiset (22 October 2009)

I can't comment on the training of NAVP members, but there are areas in which they will be lacking in experience when compared to ACPAT physios. These include neurology  - where cases require very specialist handling - and post surgical rehab. My husband is a vet and I can vouch for the gulf that is the difference in our approaches. That is not to say that vets and veterinary nurses can't retrain, but their previous animal handling experience won't necessarily be helpful or appropriate for skilled physiotherapeutic intervention. More specifically to equine physio, saddles and riders contribute to many of the problems we see, so not being able to treat the rider if needed would be like not looking at the trainers of an athlete with knee pain - missing half of the clinical picture.


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## carladixon (23 October 2009)

Hi,

as an ACPAT physio I suppose I'm gonna say choose an ACPAT physio everytime.  However, this is not to say that there aren't a lot of other very skilled therapists out there who aren't Chartered.

A couple of points I would like to make.  I disagree with the statement that NAVP therapists are more skilled in the small animal side of things.  Many of our ACPAT members are small animal specialists and are experts in the field of small animal rehabilitation.

Our background and training in human physiotherapy also gives us an unmatchable depth of knowledge in the science behind physiotherapy and rehabilitation and our experience in using our techniques on humans first means we get feedback before we get our hands on our four legged friends.

In terms of our equine work, please remember also that the rider can have a massive influence on the horse.  I am starting to read about (and come across) many horses who are 'mirroring' theirs riders own back problems and won't get better until the rider has their own problem sorted out.  Remember Chartered Physiotherapists can assess both the rider and the horse, and treat both.

Having said all that, you may find that some of the relationship between you and your physio will be down to, not only what results he/she gets for your horse, but also down to personality.  Your physio has to be someone you trust and like, and you must be happy with their handling of your animal.  This will never come down to qualifications.  Remember, there are good and bad in all professions, however many letters after their name.

So, in conclusion, find someone who is qualified and someone you get on with!  Most vets are happy for you to use anyone, as long as they are suitably qualified.

Good luck!


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## GailNAVP (23 October 2009)

I am the Director of Education for NAVP and ultimately I am responsible for the education and training of our students and members.  I have been reading some of the posts to this forum with an increasingly heavy heart, particularly with regard to some of the more personal and unprofessional comments about NAVP.  I don't know what our Chair, Chris Caden Parker, has done to be singled out for personal attack, but I can assure you that she is extremely highly qualified and highly thought of.

I feel that I must address the many half-truths and untruths that have been posted on this forum.  As they are many I am afraid that this posting will, of necessity, be rather long.  I will deal with them in order:

1. NAVP students receive instruction of neurology and neuro-physiology from Giunio Cherubini who is a European Specialist in Canine Neurology based in Newmarket, from Dr. Peter Milner of Liverpool Vet School (Equine) and from Dr. Maz Behnke of Harper Adams (Farm Animal).
2. NAVP students receive specialised instruction in the physiotherapeutic treatment of the comatose or recumbant animal.
3. I have a PhD in Equine Biomechanics from Bristol Vet School.  I have made scientific studies of horse and rider biomechanics and I am published on the subject.  I am also a Consultant to Bates Australia who manufacture the Bates and Wintec range of saddles.  I have conducted extensive studies of saddle damage in horses.  I have also made extensive studies on equine hoof/shoe/surface interface and am widely puiblished on the subject.  All my knowledge in these areas is passed onto our students.
4.  All NAVP members carry over £2,000,000 worth of insurance and all NAVP members are approved by the Veterinary Insurances Companies.
6.  NAVP members do not just have"2 years part-time training".  Acceptance onto the NAVP MSc course at Harper Adams requires a good first degree in an animal related subject, then the MSc course is 3 years.  Average study time per week on the MSc is 30 hours plus weekend taught sessions.  Upon completion of our post-graduate course, students are admitted as probationary members for 12 months during which they are mentored by a senior NAVP physio.  So effectively they have 6 years training with animals - more if they are vets.  ACPAT animal training is for 2 years only.  NAVP students receive a whole year of "hands-on" clinical instruction which is unique to our MSc.  We think this vitally important and why, I suspect, many vets feel that the NAVP practical instruction makes them better practitioners and less prescriptive.
7.  I find the arguments that you cannot be a good vet physio unless you have first trained as a human physio to be rather spurious.  If one were to follow that logic then ACPAT would consider that EquineVet01 is not qualified to treat animals because he did not qualify as a human doctor first.  No wonder he is angry.
8. NAVP members are authorised by the Health Professions Council to call themselves "Veterinary Physiotherapist"
9. NAVP have offered to meet ACPAT to discuss the way forward but that offer has been rejected.  NAVP, however, remain willing to meet ACPAT at any time to discuss the way forward.  We have several positive proposals that we would put forward which would promote animal welfare and physiotherapy whilst maintaining the individual identities of both organisations.
10.  If anyone would like accurate information about NAVP and our MSc please visit our website on www.navp.co.uk 
If anyone would like to discuss any aspect of this subject with me then you can contact me via my own website www.gailwilliams.co.uk


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## physio (23 October 2009)

Hello I have read all these entries with interest. Thank you.

I have been involved in the education of Physios for many years, and on many associated animal therapy committees.
Without doubt I would, given the choice, want to see an Animal or Vetinerary Chartered Physiotherapist and a member of ACPAT.

Why? Because that profession is the Leader in examination and rehabilitation therapies in the world. 

The entry point for a Chartered ACPAT physio  to examine your animal is through a rigorous and arduous BSc, at least 2 years human practice and then a Masters, and it is expected that the profession works within evidence and best practice as indeed are the Vet profession. 

That doesnt mean that NAVP do not have excellent professionals as members, and if the ACPAT physio didnt help me, I would not hesitate to go to them. 

However, as a first stop, for standards of practice, diagnostic abililty to find the problem and a whole batch of techniques to help rehabilitate, it would be a Chartered Physiotherapist member of ACPAT.

There is room however, for many types of professionals of good education working with animals. Although we can not "join forces", NAVP and ACPAT members can work together and learn from each other, in the same way that we do with Osteopaths, Chiropracters and Vets.

This is a good debate.

WHat I hope comes to the fore from it is a deeper understanding of both groups, the similiarities and differences.

All the best!


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## physio (23 October 2009)

I dont agree with you. As far as I know both sides are giving their views, that is called a debate - freedom of speech being fundamental in this country.

Name and shaming is unprofessional also. I believe both organisations are merely defending themselves.

I am sure the members of the forum are finding it all fascinating........in the end we will have much more knowledge than when we started!


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## louiset (24 October 2009)

My previous comment was not intended to be a criticism of the NAVP course. But there is no comparison between several years developing therapuetic handling skills(partcicularly with neuro) and rehab planning compared to several years of animal handling. I was also only commenting on the ability to assess and treat riders, not saddles, as that is an area where NAVP and ACPAT trained physios will always differ.


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## GailNAVP (24 October 2009)

I am obviously being dense because I cannot understand the point you are making.  If you are suggesting that NAVP members are not trained in neuro cases then you are simply wrong.  Vets refer neuro cases to us on a regular basis and we are perfectly capable of handling them, and instructing our students how to do so.  I have completely missed the point about "animal handling skills", but I devise remedial exercise prescriptions for horses and dogs every day, again our students have substantial clinical instruction on that subject and are examined by way of OSCEs.  Further NAVP members are more than capable of assessing horse and rider interactive biomechanics.  It is a subject I teach so I can vouch for it.


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## sarahnmagic (26 October 2009)

This is indeed a lively debate.  
I agree that NAVP and ACPAT members can learn from each other.  I also think that they should form an alliance against less well-qualified, and in some cases completely unprofessional "back people", of which there are many.
I did check my horse insurance policy, and it will pay out for the services of NAVP or ACPAT members


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## EquineVet01 (26 October 2009)

Thank you sarahnmagic.  Someone with some common sense.


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