# ROLLKUR IN LONDON what can we actually do?? anyone???



## sister duke (4 August 2012)

comments on the facebook fei (under federation equestre internationale) are being deleted as quick as they go on. with no response from these idiots who think we want to see pics of americans with daft glasses on. horse and hound from previous thread seem to be condoning rollkur now. nice one h&h. 

who can we complain to ?? what can be done does anyone know??? is british dressage doing anything? can they? 

as for being able to use it in warm up for 10 minutes??? would it be ok to beat up a dog for 10 minutes??? 

its all very infuriating.......


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## theopuppy (4 August 2012)

There's no point complaining to Bd. They have taken a post off the Bd forum re Mr Kittel.

Unfortunately the showjumping world is no better as shown by two displays of temper taken out on the horses today.

It seems that  the governing bodies just protect their own backs and not those of the horses. They are all a bunch of hypocrites where horses welfare is concerned.They know what is going on but nobody is brave enough to take a stance. 

Can we somehow do something ourselves.?


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## Mondy (4 August 2012)

The censorship is frightening, I think. Approaching 'Big Brother' territory - rewriting history and silencing opposing voices.

I'm especially unsettled by the fact that Cornelissen could yank Parsifal's head around in front of judges and spectators and consequently being awarded plus 80%.

I think we need to go beyond the equestrian bodies - BBC, national news papers, olympic committees etc.


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## sister duke (4 August 2012)

who polices the fei? surely if theyre not doing their job there must be something that can be done? someone somewhere must have some contacts...??????!!!!


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## theopuppy (4 August 2012)

Yes mondy I agree. there is a post on Bd forum now where someone has asked others to speak up and make their voices heard to the FEi and IOC.A well known top british rider has then posted that this person was making things up. The gist of the Bd thread was that photographic evidence isn't enough, videos are required, and if you aren't a top level rider you are not qualified to judge whether RK is cruel or not.

Quite staggering.!

I dare say the said post will be removed when the Bd 'police' see it.
At least there is more freedom to air views on the H+H forum.


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## Noodlebug (4 August 2012)

I can't see them doing anything Did anyone see the KSA rider on a grey with big spurs marks down his sides? I may of imagined it or could of just been the picture on TV!!! They were checking spurs yesterday but really can't see them doing anything as it would cause too much of a fuss!


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## sister duke (4 August 2012)

http://no-rollkur.com/


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## sister duke (4 August 2012)

ABOVE IS THE PETITION IT CAN BE (oops, not shouting!) copied and pasted onto facebook etc and shared...

nice quote from FEI code of conduct:
The Fédération Equestre Internationale (FEI) requires all those involved in international equestrian sport to adhere to the FEIs Code of Conduct and to acknowledge and accept that at all times the welfare of the horse must be paramount and must never be subordinated to competitive or commercial influences.

1. At all stages during the preparation and training of competition horses, welfare must take precedence over all other demands. This includes good horse management, training methods, farriery and tack, and transportation.


that is , of course when theyre not busy taking photos of the crowd to put on their FB page.

sponsors of FEI are Rolex, hsbc, alltech. i dont know if anything can be done there, im trying to work out who polices them......someone must....


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## sister duke (4 August 2012)

news@dailymail.co.uk
newseditor@independent.co.uk
media.enquiries@guardian.co.uk

bbc news has contact form on website. remember non horsey people may not have a clue whats going on so lets make sure the news gets out there and FINGERS CROSSED someone will speak up for these horses. worth a try.

more addresses welcomed!!!! and ideas!!!


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## Stilldreamin' (4 August 2012)

Make sure papers are linked to the pictures available and the footage if it's still there. Tell them exactly where the issue occurs- remember they may not be horse people!

All the Kittel pics can be seen here:
http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/news/patrik-kittel-reignites-rollkur-controversy-at-olympics.aspx


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## joeanne (4 August 2012)

I think its important to NOT make this a witch hunt regarding Patrik Kittel.
MANY of riders across ALL the discipline's use rollkur as a training technique.
Patrik was NOT the only rider to be seen using rollkur during the dressage at Greenwich, and as such should not be the only one singled out.
ALL riders who use rollkur, and especially those that are doing it in plain view of the public at organised events SHOULD be disqulified by the FEI as it states it is clearly against FEI rules!


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## Marydoll (4 August 2012)

joeanne said:



			I think its important to NOT make this a witch hunt regarding Patrik Kittel.
MANY of riders across ALL the discipline's use rollkur as a training technique.
Patrik was NOT the only rider to be seen using rollkur during the dressage at Greenwich, and as such should not be the only one singled out.
ALL riders who use rollkur, and especially those that are doing it in plain view of the public at organised events SHOULD be disqulified by the FEI as it states it is clearly against FEI rules!
		
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I agree with this but hes up there with quite a few others


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## theopuppy (4 August 2012)

Joeanne. Where to start though ? Evidence is required We are not allowed behind the scenes in the warmup.Photograhic evidence is there for all to see.. this is not low,deep round by any stretch of the imagination.Yet it is deemed this is not good enough.

There musr be some sort of cover up for this not to progreess and be properly investigated the first time round years ago. I feel sick to the core for the poor horses who are suffering as we speak.


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## no_no_nanette (4 August 2012)

If enough people sign the petition that will help.

And, because it always comes down to money in the end, the key people to influence are the sponsors.  If the FEI are ignoring public protest, then sponsors will not - no business likes to be associated with a method of training that is causing such controversy. Look on the riders' websites, and you will find the names of their sponsors.  Put them up on Twitter, and contact them direct.  Again, if enough people do that they will start to withdraw support from those riders whose names are in the frame


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## perfect11s (4 August 2012)

joeanne said:



			I think its important to NOT make this a witch hunt regarding Patrik Kittel.
MANY of riders across ALL the discipline's use rollkur as a training technique.
Patrik was NOT the only rider to be seen using rollkur during the dressage at Greenwich, and as such should not be the only one singled out.
ALL riders who use rollkur, and especially those that are doing it in plain view of the public at organised events SHOULD be disqulified by the FEI as it states it is clearly against FEI rules!
		
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 Yes but it was him with the horse's tongue  blue and in a horible state not saying the other barberians  shoud'nt  be picked up , but maybe if he was seen being ridden by a big 6'6 19 stone wrestler type with his head tied down nose against his chest it  would perhaps serve as a warning  to others  thinking of doing rollkur


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## Mondy (5 August 2012)

I agree regarding Kittel and avoiding witch-hunts. The important thing here is that FEI is neglecting its own rules and condoning - even awarding - abuse.

And Cornelissen managed to make her horse's tongue turn a fine shade of purple as well:

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/405557_10150963983377181_1217553179_n.jpg


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## Stilldreamin' (5 August 2012)

Mondy said:



			I agree regarding Kittel and avoiding witch-hunts. The important thing here is that FEI is neglecting its own rules and condoning - even awarding - abuse.

And Cornelissen managed to make her horse's tongue turn a fine shade of purple as well:

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/405557_10150963983377181_1217553179_n.jpg

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Uck awful.


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## Armas (5 August 2012)

What about the RSPCA can they not act as ROLLKUR is clearly a form of cruelty ?


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## Stilldreamin' (5 August 2012)

Ok everyone, sent this to the Daily Mail this morning. Let me know what you think. If anyone wants to send corrections or clue in other papers please do. 




			Dear Daily Mail

If you are not already aware please consider covering this story here in the UK as it has been causing quite a storm over the internet this weekend. 

The use of the training method 'Rollkur' or hyperflexion has been witnessed at the Olympic Dressage competition- at one point being employed as a rider entered the ring on live television. The horse's head is forced right into his chest by the rider's hands. This is uncomfortable and is a tense, resistant posture which is against everything true dressage should encourage. 

It's particularly common among the Dutch riders, though Kittel, one of the guilty parties, is Swedish. Our British riders do not use or condone it as far as I can identify from research. The crowning insult is that the rider currently sitting individual second, Adelinde Cornelissen, has a score close to Charlotte's despite her horse Parzival being ridden in this way when she came into the arena and looking tense and unhappy throughout. 

There is a summary of the concerns in this article and several shots taken from live television (footage by BBC- still available online) can be found at the following links:

http://suite101.com/article/dressage-rollkur-debate-rears-or-tucks-in-its-head-at-olympics-a410572
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.4335149866245.2176732.1512297978&type=3&l=fcb43e0706 
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.4336335975897.2176764.1512297978&type=1&l=22151ccf6c 

More pictures of Kittel riding and a link to the infamous video where his horse's tongue was turned blue by the pressure here:

http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/news/patrik-kittel-reignites-rollkur-controversy-at-olympics.aspx

A further break down of what Rollkur is here:

http://www.writingofriding.com/in-the-media/a-beginners-guide-to-rollkur/

Forum/online discussions here:

http://fuglyblog.com/2012/08/03/rollkur-at-the-olympics-a-new-equestrian-event/#comments
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=553759
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=553858

Please consider this story for the sake of the horses! 

Thank you
		
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## Armas (5 August 2012)

Stilldreamin' said:



			Ok everyone, sent this to the Daily Mail this morning. Let me know what you think. If anyone wants to send corrections or clue in other papers please do.
		
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I cut and pasted your email and sent it to the telegraph hope you don't mind.


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## Fellewell (5 August 2012)

I would imagine that calling for more stringent rulings on rollkur is pointless since the current one is clearly unenforceable.

What we do have, at this level, are world-class judges who can tell in an instant how a horses way of going has been achieved and influenced.

This is where collective marks come into play. It seems to me that the judges, at least, are doing their jobs.


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## no_no_nanette (5 August 2012)

Thanks so much stilldreamin', and you've nudged me into doing the same - have sent an email to The Indy.

I do hope that one of the papers picks it up.  The more publicity that is given to this training method, the more that sponsors are likely to back off and the FEI will, we hope, be prepared to take so many people's concerns seriously, rather than just deleting them!


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## HappyHooves (5 August 2012)

An unhealthy aspect of all of this is the fact that people like FEI are deleting the unwanted observations of those concerned for the welfare of horses from their FB pages. Can I suggest that a copy of the pages are hard copied regularly so that, once the 'unwanted posts' have disappeared, it provides evidence that this sort of censorship is going on - which I am sure would be grist to the mill for the Say no to Rollkur campaign and certainly of great interest to the newspapers!


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## HappyHooves (5 August 2012)

Mondy said:



			I agree regarding Kittel and avoiding witch-hunts. The important thing here is that FEI is neglecting its own rules and condoning - even awarding - abuse.

And Cornelissen managed to make her horse's tongue turn a fine shade of purple as well:

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/405557_10150963983377181_1217553179_n.jpg

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Fellewell said:



			I would imagine that calling for more stringent rulings on rollkur is pointless since the current one is clearly unenforceable.

What we do have, at this level, are world-class judges who can tell in an instant how a horses way of going has been achieved and influenced.

This is where collective marks come into play. It seems to me that the judges, at least, are doing their jobs.
		
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Am I missing something here? Are the judges really doing their jobs do you think?


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## SusannaF (5 August 2012)

Who finances the FEI?


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## CoachinaCar (5 August 2012)

removed


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## joeanne (5 August 2012)

Yes yes....I KNOW Patrik Kittel is one of the most high profile offenders...but there ARE others that are using the same methods......most of the Dutch team for starters!
If you make it a witch hunt against ONE person then you take away reason from your argument.
The argument is about ANY rider using rollkur....not one rider (as high profile as he may be for using it).


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## Marydoll (5 August 2012)

HappyHooves said:



			Am I missing something here? Are the judges really doing their jobs do you think?
		
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No i personally dont think they are, they are continuing to reward this style of imo, harsh riding, have a look at the test sitting second at the moment,  and comapre it to the portugese rider on rubi, i rest my case.


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## Stilldreamin' (5 August 2012)

Armas said:



			I cut and pasted your email and sent it to the telegraph hope you don't mind.
		
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Of course not! Lets just hope someone runs with it.


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## Blitzen (5 August 2012)

I think the lack of transparency is a huge issue. I'm not particularly 'up' on dressage, but what is the reason behind keeping the warm-up so secretive? Surely if the FEI were doing their job properly and wanted to uphold the illegal status of this "training technique" then filming the warm-up area would not be unreasonable?
They seem to be so keen on down playing the accusations, but how is it in their benefit to shield the practice and the riders who use it? A more open stance would win them a lot of respect. To step up to the mark, and say "this will no longer be tolerated" and STAND BY it!


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## oldvic (5 August 2012)

Sending those e-mails to newspapers is short sighted at best. Equine sports are already fighting to stay in the Olympics and all this negativity wil only add fuel to the fire. It will reduce funding and then there is less chance of controlling what goes on. There are a lot of very experienced horsemen acting as stewards at Greenwich who dislike rollkur as much as you or I so they will only allow it within the time constraints and no more. By all means write to the FEI or the national federations but bringing national press into the argument will help nobody and, particularly as they have no understanding of horses is not going to do anything to help the one party you think you are defending.


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## tristar (5 August 2012)

well done stilldreamin', i too dream of a world where the horse is ridden and trained in freedom and shows it's best work, develops to its ultimate potential through humane and patient process's, and where people who wish to aspire to ride high school are set examples by trainers, who are true horsemen, and not the producers of horses that look more and more like performing seals in a circus,   - toto etc


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## Red30563 (5 August 2012)

On Rudall's Roundup tonight at 10pm on H & C TV - comment from WHW and FEI on horse welfare at the Olympics.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...12550567025.142177.85186787025&type=1&theater

Hmm, wonder what they will say?


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## Goldenstar (5 August 2012)

Laura-C said:



			I think the lack of transparency is a huge issue. I'm not particularly 'up' on dressage, but what is the reason behind keeping the warm-up so secretive? Surely if the FEI were doing their job properly and wanted to uphold the illegal status of this "training technique" then filming the warm-up area would not be unreasonable?
They seem to be so keen on down playing the accusations, but how is it in their benefit to shield the practice and the riders who use it? A more open stance would win them a lot of respect. To step up to the mark, and say "this will no longer be tolerated" and STAND BY it!
		
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Rolkur is as far as I'm aware not illegal anywhere , the are rules made by the FEI governing it use in warm up in FEI competions that's a very very different thing.
Laws can only be made by governments .


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## Blitzen (5 August 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Rolkur is as far as I'm aware not illegal anywhere , the are rules made by the FEI governing it use in warm up in FEI competions that's a very very different thing.
Laws can only be made by governments .
		
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Obviously I know that laws can only be made in Parliament! I didn't mean illegal as in against the law, but "illegal" within the competition, as in banned within the rules set by FEI, maybe I should have been a bit clearer. I'm now imagining the Met's finest chasing Patrik Kittell around the warm up brandishing tasers


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## Marydoll (5 August 2012)

oldvic said:



			Sending those e-mails to newspapers is short sighted at best. Equine sports are already fighting to stay in the Olympics and all this negativity wil only add fuel to the fire. It will reduce funding and then there is less chance of controlling what goes on. There are a lot of very experienced horsemen acting as stewards at Greenwich who dislike rollkur as much as you or I so they will only allow it within the time constraints and no more. By all means write to the FEI or the national federations but bringing national press into the argument will help nobody and, particularly as they have no understanding of horses is not going to do anything to help the one party you think you are defending.
		
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There are no time constraints in rollkur, it is not allowed.
There are time constraints in ldr, but imo this is tipping into rollkur in some cases and  a blind eye is being turned, with nobody willing to pull up and warn a big name.
When people have tried to go through their appointed governing bodies and feel theyre getting nowhere, then they may feel that news papers and public scrutiny are the only way to go. Mabe itll take the house of Cards to tumble and sponsorship and funding deals lost before it will stop.
And i beg to differ, but im sure if it highlights this cruel training,it'll possibly help the poor horses suffering at the hands of the rollkur users


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## SusannaF (5 August 2012)

I think it's good for the sport to highlight welfare issues. You have to have your own house in order.

Look at what's happening with horse racing in the US. It's under threat for financial and economic reasons, but it's also lost supporters because people don't like to see the breakdowns that result from overracing and drug use. No one will stand up and fight for dressage to remain in the Olympics if they see abuse being tolerated by the official sporting bodies.


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## Stilldreamin' (5 August 2012)

To me arguing that you shouldn't kick up a stink over Rollkur because then the Olympics might get rid of equestrian events is like telling people with Tennessee Walking Horses in the US that if they ever want to show their horses again they'd better not make a fuss about soring.


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## theopuppy (5 August 2012)

Yes well done still dreamin and armas for actually doing something. Its a start

I for one would rather the competitions didn't take place then subject the horses to this method of training..If that's the price then so be it. But who says olympic Dressage will stop. TBH more people will watch if there is true horsemanship.


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## oldvic (5 August 2012)

You are being naive if you think that if equine sports came out of the Olympics then rollkur would stop. The stewards in Greenwich include the likes of Jennie Loriston-Clarke and by implying that the FEI condones rollkur you are implying that they do too. They will be very hot on the 10 minute rule just as they won't tolerate abuse. I am confident that Jennie and her colleagues have more than enough knowledge to deal with the situation and I am sure they would not being involving the media. Hopefully the British team will give the media plenty to write about and the proper channels will deal with any other matters.


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## angelish (5 August 2012)

oldvic said:



			Sending those e-mails to newspapers is short sighted at best. Equine sports are already fighting to stay in the Olympics and all this negativity wil only add fuel to the fire. It will reduce funding and then there is less chance of controlling what goes on. There are a lot of very experienced horsemen acting as stewards at Greenwich who dislike rollkur as much as you or I so they will only allow it within the time constraints and no more. By all means write to the FEI or the national federations but bringing national press into the argument will help nobody and, particularly as they have no understanding of horses is not going to do anything to help the one party you think you are defending.
		
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oldvic said:



			You are being naive if you think that if equine sports came out of the Olympics then rollkur would stop. The stewards in Greenwich include the likes of Jennie Loriston-Clarke and by implying that the FEI condones rollkur you are implying that they do too. They will be very hot on the 10 minute rule just as they won't tolerate abuse. I am confident that Jennie and her colleagues have more than enough knowledge to deal with the situation and I am sure they would not being involving the media. Hopefully the British team will give the media plenty to write about and the proper channels will deal with any other matters.
		
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100% agree with you oldvic


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## Stilldreamin' (6 August 2012)

oldvic said:



			You are being naive if you think that if equine sports came out of the Olympics then rollkur would stop. The stewards in Greenwich include the likes of Jennie Loriston-Clarke and by implying that the FEI condones rollkur you are implying that they do too. They will be very hot on the 10 minute rule just as they won't tolerate abuse. I am confident that Jennie and her colleagues have more than enough knowledge to deal with the situation and I am sure they would not being involving the media. Hopefully the British team will give the media plenty to write about and the proper channels will deal with any other matters.
		
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The 'proper channels' appear to be in denial and have completely failed to acknowledge any kind of problem, so my opinion is that it is time to go beyond them. I'm afraid we'll never agree on this one. 

At no point have I personally argued that the FEI condone Rollkur, but I have used an article which stresses the rules do not appear to be easy to enforce and prone to misinterpretation, as well as pointing out that British riders are not, to the best of our understanding, users of the practice.


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## Clannad48 (6 August 2012)

Well I watched RRU last night and had to wait 25 minutes before the 'rollkur' incident was mentioned.  To me it seemed that the FEI just wanted the whole matter to go away - his comment was  'that it only lasted for a few seconds'.  Hmmmm


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