# Latest Defra information



## MotherOfChickens (8 February 2017)

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ai-prevention-zone-plans-28_february-2017.pdf


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## Clodagh (8 February 2017)

Yee hah! Mine can go out on the 28th. So exciting. I normally use electric fence, have never seen a gull or a duck here, no standing water, all looks good. Thank you MOC.


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## MotherOfChickens (8 February 2017)

no Scottish government update yet :/ hopefully will be the same. my waterfowl will be pleased although going to wing clip them as a precaution.


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## Clodagh (8 February 2017)

Having skim read it I wondered if having waterfowl made it more of a problem, am I right in thinking you just have to keep them away from your chooks?
A friend has shared on FB that a wetland place in NW England has now got it. It is beyond me how they have been allowed to stay open, I assume it is the RSPB pound giving them extra powers.


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## MotherOfChickens (8 February 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Having skim read it I wondered if having waterfowl made it more of a problem, am I right in thinking you just have to keep them away from your chooks?
A friend has shared on FB that a wetland place in NW England has now got it. It is beyond me how they have been allowed to stay open, I assume it is the RSPB pound giving them extra powers.
		
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I read it as having to keep wild waterfowl away from my birds. I can manage the chickens being in a small area-the ducks (mucky blighters) not so much. I want to move them out to a larger netted area as soon as I'm allowed. They seem alright but aren't laying yet-they usually start in January. 

There was an RSPB place with it down south I think, still open.


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## JillA (8 February 2017)

Hooray, mine will be so pleased, although I think they have got used to it now. We do have geese stopping off for a graze, not sure how I can keep them separate from where the geese land, although I daresay the geese don't some near the yard and the hens don't wander that far.


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## popsdosh (8 February 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I read it as having to keep wild waterfowl away from my birds. I can manage the chickens being in a small area-the ducks (mucky blighters) not so much. I want to move them out to a larger netted area as soon as I'm allowed. They seem alright but aren't laying yet-they usually start in January. 

There was an RSPB place with it down south I think, still open.
		
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Yes slimbridge had dead wildfowl and they still did not close to the public! Thats wildfowl and Wetlands trust.


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## popsdosh (8 February 2017)

JillA said:



			Hooray, mine will be so pleased, although I think they have got used to it now. We do have geese stopping off for a graze, not sure how I can keep them separate from where the geese land, although I daresay the geese don't some near the yard and the hens don't wander that far.
		
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As I read the regs you will still need to enclose the hens within a fenced area they cannot go completely free range.


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## MotherOfChickens (8 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			As I read the regs you will still need to enclose the hens within a fenced area they cannot go completely free range.
		
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agreed-if they are outside they should be in netted runs-use bird netting and/or rubble netting-both are quite cheap.


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## Clodagh (8 February 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			agreed-if they are outside they should be in netted runs-use bird netting and/or rubble netting-both are quite cheap.
		
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Netted runs not necessary in low risk areas, but definitely no contact with wild waterfowl. It does say they need to be fenced in.

Sorry, by netted I assumed you meant roofed, but perhaps not.


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## Alec Swan (8 February 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I read it as having to keep wild waterfowl away from my birds. &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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By 'away from' does that mean that you have to also stop waterfowl from flying overhead and crapping on your birds?

I often wonder if those who dream up these knee-jerk reactions actually think first!  Do we remember the site in Lincolnshire where there was an outbreak?  It was a Bernard Matthews turkey farm and those birds barely see the light of day,  never mind having access to wild birds! 

Alec.


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## popsdosh (9 February 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			By 'away from' does that mean that you have to also stop waterfowl from flying overhead and crapping on your birds?

I often wonder if those who dream up these knee-jerk reactions actually think first!  Do we remember the site in Lincolnshire where there was an outbreak?  It was a Bernard Matthews turkey farm and those birds barely see the light of day,  never mind having access to wild birds! 

Alec.
		
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However most of the outbreaks have been in out door flocks so maybe not so knee jerk! The Lincs turkey farms are situated in an area that carries a high population of migrating wildfowl so because of that there is always a risk of it getting in from the environment by many routes. I personally think that the low incidence of the disease in housed flocks actually shows that the precautions have worked as they are the ones most vulnerable as they are pretty naive to infection of any sort. Talk to commercial poultry keepers and see if they agree with you about knee jerk the ones around here are like fortresses at the moment with no vehicles allowed on or any persons apart from the normal staff .Its in their own interest as there is no compensation if you lose a flock and the clean up cost are down to you as well.


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## popsdosh (9 February 2017)

This map will give you a more accurate indication of which zone your in, it is interactive.

http://www.gisdiseasemap.defra.gov.uk/intmaps/avian/map.jsp


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## MotherOfChickens (9 February 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			By 'away from' does that mean that you have to also stop waterfowl from flying overhead and crapping on your birds?


Alec.
		
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risk management Alec. If I were near watercourses and numbers of wildfowl my birds would be staying in under cover. I am not though so will use netted pens. nothing is 100% effective as has been seen but doing nothing does lead to disease-as seen in the backyarders affected when letting their birds free range during lock down. 

I agree with popsdosh, without lockdown this could have been far worse. I just hope non-commercial people are more prepared int he future when it happens again.


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## Clodagh (9 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			This map will give you a more accurate indication of which zone your in, it is interactive.

http://www.gisdiseasemap.defra.gov.uk/intmaps/avian/map.jsp

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That is a better map. They had to allow controlled free ranging to prevent most Brisitsh poultry farmers going bust I should think. As the public think £1 for four pints of milk is a reasonable price to pay I cannot see anyone continuing to pay free range egg prices for non free range eggs, even for the greater long term good.


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## LovesCobs (9 February 2017)

I'm right on the other side of the Welsh boarder to a large proposed high risk area so I'm guessing when the Welsh update I will be continuing with housing through March.


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## popsdosh (14 February 2017)

Im guessing a few on here may be effected by the latest outbreak in 23k birds at Redgrave in suffolk.


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## LovesCobs (14 February 2017)

Just had info that wales is carrying on the lock down until end April


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## Alec Swan (14 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Im guessing a few on here may be effected by the latest outbreak in 23k birds at Redgrave in suffolk.
		
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Interesting that yet again,  it's a housed flock,  broiler birds to be precise and they will unlikely have seen the light of day,  far less had the opportunity to become infected by the 'believed' air-borne route.  Is there any thinking from DEFRA's experts as to just how it's the large indoor flocks which are being struck down rather than,  as we'd imagine,  those birds which live outside?

It's also curious,  to me anyway,  that within these housed flocks the number of birds which are succumbing to the disease which presumably will have alerted the staff to a problem.  There will probably be a natural loss of 5-10% under normal circumstances,  so we can only imagine that there have been a considerable number of deaths from the disease itself.  The remainder of a flock will obviously be killed as a precautionary measure.

I remain of the opinion that DEFRA are just as much in the dark as is everyone else.

Alec.


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## popsdosh (14 February 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Interesting that yet again,  it's a housed flock,  broiler birds to be precise and they will unlikely have seen the light of day,  far less had the opportunity to become infected by the 'believed' air-borne route.  Is there any thinking from DEFRA's experts as to just how it's the large indoor flocks which are being struck down rather than,  as we'd imagine,  those birds which live outside?

It's also curious,  to me anyway,  that within these housed flocks the number of birds which are succumbing to the disease which presumably will have alerted the staff to a problem.  There will probably be a natural loss of 5-10% under normal circumstances,  so we can only imagine that there have been a considerable number of deaths from the disease itself.  The remainder of a flock will obviously be killed as a precautionary measure.

I remain of the opinion that DEFRA are just as much in the dark as is everyone else.

Alec.
		
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 Broiler loses would be at 3% or less per crop. Any manager with 5% would be packing their bags.
House birds are unfortunately more likely to suffer as they  are inherently naive to disease . Housed in close proximity and indeed the ventilation air is possibly the weak point. 
Not quite sure why you are being so dismissive of the efforts as we know wild birds have died in large numbers due to the infection however it would be impossible to find every one . I think that only the loss of 4 major housed flocks actually goes to show they have done a decent job. God knows what the situation would be without the controls. I suspect a cull of Red Kite and buzzards would help but not politically ever going to happen.


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## MotherOfChickens (14 February 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Interesting that yet again,  it's a housed flock,  broiler birds to be precise and they will unlikely have seen the light of day,  far less had the opportunity to become infected by the 'believed' air-borne route.  Is there any thinking from DEFRA's experts as to just how it's the large indoor flocks which are being struck down rather than,  as we'd imagine,  those birds which live outside?

It's also curious,  to me anyway,  that within these housed flocks the number of birds which are succumbing to the disease which presumably will have alerted the staff to a problem.  There will probably be a natural loss of 5-10% under normal circumstances,  so we can only imagine that there have been a considerable number of deaths from the disease itself.  The remainder of a flock will obviously be killed as a precautionary measure.

I remain of the opinion that DEFRA are just as much in the dark as is everyone else.

Alec.
		
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Alec, this is a strain of high pathogenicity avian flu-so yes, there will be a lot of birds fall ill and die in a short space of time in a susceptible population. And again, risk assessment as I've said quite a few times on this thread.

I am not sure what else you expect Defra to do or why you seem so opposed to what they have done.


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## Alec Swan (14 February 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			Alec, this is a strain of high pathogenicity avian flu-so yes, there will be a lot of birds fall ill and die in a short space of time in a susceptible population. .. .
		
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I'm well aware of the potency of the disease,  but still I haven't yet heard anyone explain how 'contained' birds seem to be the most susceptible,  excepting for posdosh's thoughts that being contained may lower their own immunity and in that he may be right.  As these contained (housed) birds have no access to wild birds,  the question remains,  and perhaps when it's answered,  a way forward will be found as to why the disease finds it's way indoors.

It would seem that your experience and that of popsdosh,  considering DEFRA are different to mine.  Previously,  DEFRA are given to knee-jerk reactions which has most watching them run around,  like the proverbial headless chickens.

If you have a greater,  or a different understanding than I do,  can you explain why the only reported cases of avian bird-flue come from housed and intensely kept flocks which have no access to the supposed carriers,  rather than the rustic and open air system by which you and I keep poultry and which almost certainly will and which to date,  seem to be free of infection?

Alec.


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## popsdosh (14 February 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm well aware of the potency of the disease,  but still I haven't yet heard anyone explain how 'contained' birds seem to be the most susceptible,  excepting for posdosh's thoughts that being contained may lower their own immunity and in that he may be right.  As these contained (housed) birds have no access to wild birds,  the question remains,  and perhaps when it's answered,  a way forward will be found as to why the disease finds it's way indoors.

It would seem that your experience and that of popsdosh,  considering DEFRA are different to mine.  Previously,  DEFRA are given to knee-jerk reactions which has most watching them run around,  like the proverbial headless chickens.

If you have a greater,  or a different understanding than I do,  can you explain why the only reported cases of avian bird-flue come from housed and intensely kept flocks which have no access to the supposed carriers,  rather than the rustic and open air system by which you and I keep poultry and which almost certainly will and which to date,  seem to be free of infection?

Alec.
		
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I think you have been missing something Alec there have been many cases in poultry that have been running around even though they were meant to be inside nearly all small backyard flocks ,two cases in pheasants, many in wild bird carcases that have been tested including those at slimbridge. You even commented about the pheasant cases.


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## Indy (15 February 2017)

Does anyone think that there is more bird flu about but it hasn't been reported.  By this I mean people who have gone up to there allotment in the afternoon and found poorly birds and disposed of them not your big concerns.


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## popsdosh (15 February 2017)

Indy said:



			Does anyone think that there is more bird flu about but it hasn't been reported.  By this I mean people who have gone up to there allotment in the afternoon and found poorly birds and disposed of them not your big concerns.
		
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I think it is likely especially where they may not have stuck to the rules.


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## Indy (15 February 2017)

Yes, I think it's likely too.  I must admit I'm a little bit nervous about letting my birds out - I'm contemplating keeping them housed for a bit longer and seeing how everyone else gets on.


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## MotherOfChickens (15 February 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			If you have a greater,  or a different understanding than I do,  can you explain why the only reported cases of avian bird-flue come from housed and intensely kept flocks which have no access to the supposed carriers,  rather than the rustic and open air system by which you and I keep poultry and which almost certainly will and which to date,  seem to be free of infection?

Alec.
		
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there have been cases of flu in backyard flocks where birds have not been housed.

 Indoor flocks are indoor, not hermetically sealed-you're only ever as good as your biosecurity afterall.


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## Clodagh (15 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I think you have been missing something Alec there have been many cases in poultry that have been running around even though they were meant to be inside nearly all small backyard flocks ,two cases in pheasants, many in wild bird carcases that have been tested including those at slimbridge. You even commented about the pheasant cases.
		
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I think there has only been two cases of backyard breeders having it, and both kept chickens with ducks. I do see that people may not have reported it, but I think that is a bit unlikely.


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## PorkChop (15 February 2017)

I will be keeping mine in until the end of April, or when restrictions are lifted.  The guidelines are really not that much different to those up until now.


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## JillA (15 February 2017)

I have Canada geese flying over now - if the strain is as virulent as reported, wouldn't they succumb to it if they have caught it? What about rooks and pigeons - are they carriers or can they die from it?


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## popsdosh (16 February 2017)

Clodagh said:



			I think there has only been two cases of backyard breeders having it, and both kept chickens with ducks. I do see that people may not have reported it, but I think that is a bit unlikely.
		
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Would you report it if you left your 6 chicken running around and you had a couple die? The three groups of pheasants were clearly outside.


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## Clodagh (16 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Would you report it if you left your 6 chicken running around and you had a couple die? The three groups of pheasants were clearly outside.
		
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A couple no, two have died since lockdown begun and I didn't report anything. I think if it is this strain of bird flu they all die, or the vast majority, and then in this case yes I would.


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## Indy (24 February 2017)

I've just had a text through from Defra saying that the prevention zone has been extended in England to 30/04/17.


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## JillA (24 February 2017)

I'm hearing more and more about people who have chosen to disregard any instructions, including a backyard flock in Somerset where the wetland birds were infected, and a flock of geese not far from me here, as well as a local farmers wife who sells eggs. Makes me wonder why those of us who bother do so, it is costing me a lot of money and time and if it isn't 100% it seems to be a waste of both.


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## JillA (25 February 2017)

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-measures-to-protect-against-avian-flu


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## lizziebell (2 March 2017)

PorkChop said:



			I will be keeping mine in until the end of April, or when restrictions are lifted.  The guidelines are really not that much different to those up until now.
		
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Me too PorkChop. The way I read it is they still need to be separated from having contact direct or indirect, with any wild bird (not just waterfowl).


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## popsdosh (4 March 2017)

Another 55,000 culled in Suffolk yesterday near to another outbreak.


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## Alec Swan (4 March 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Another 55,000 culled in Suffolk yesterday near to another outbreak.
		
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And all intensively kept,  housed birds with no access to wild birds.

If the virus is as virulent as it's claimed,  then being housed is only going to exacerbate the spread within the flock.  It will be interesting to see what happens with the larger shoots where pheasants and partridges are released in numbers of tens of thousands and if they also succumb to the disease.

I understand that Hi-Fly Game Hatcheries have declared themselves bankrupt.

Alec.


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## PorkChop (28 April 2017)

Hoping the picture works!  Just to brighten the post 

Edit - picture didn't work  

Well my chickens and ducks are going to be soooo happy to be released, it has been a bit of a slog this winter for them.


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## MotherOfChickens (4 May 2017)

kaufen said:



			I just hope non-commercial people are more prepared int he future when it happens again.
		
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some are saying it could be a standard winter thing-am planning housing for next winter over the summer.


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## MotherOfChickens (4 May 2017)

oh fook.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/avian-flu-confirmed-at-a-farm-near-thornton-wyre-lancashire


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## Clodagh (4 May 2017)

Just saw that, how incredibly sad. :-(


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## MotherOfChickens (4 May 2017)

its going to be tough if they reintroduce restrictions again, everyone has started breeding again now.


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## Clodagh (4 May 2017)

I have chicks and growers, I suppose they can go back up to the stables but the swallows are nesting up there now, I don't want to shut them out. Is a complete ******.
Do you know if the person effected had ducks?


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## MotherOfChickens (4 May 2017)

thats something I hadn't thought of, we're not allowed to interfere with nesting birds are we? my hens are still undercover-mainly because I've been keeping them away from the waterfowl. Not hatching any chickens this year but the goose is sitting. If they want to move her they can do it themselves


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## Cecile (5 May 2017)

Another case reported

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-39803837


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## JillA (5 May 2017)

There are more wildfowl than ever round here on their migrations with stops to graze (geese and swans mainly) so it would seem the lifting of the restrictions was probably economic rather than scientific in motivation (free range egg producers and any compensation)?


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## Cecile (5 May 2017)

Cecile said:



			Another case reported

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-39803837

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Apologies as didn't realise the above had already been posted


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## Alec Swan (5 May 2017)

I'm wondering if H5N8 won't become something which we're going to have to live with,  just as we do Enzootic Abortion in sheep and TB in cattle.

Alec.


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## cremedemonthe (5 May 2017)

Story I have seen via a friend on facebook who's a poultry breeder up near the zone where it's occurred is  it's somebody who has been reported for burying his flock when they died around the time hy fly had the outbreak. So it's looking like an old case of the disease. 
How true this is I don't know as I don't know how long the virus can stay active in the soil, does anyone on here know?


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## MotherOfChickens (5 May 2017)

cremedemonthe said:



			Story I have seen via a friend on facebook who's a poultry breeder up near the zone where it's occurred is  it's somebody who has been reported for burying his flock when they died around the time hy fly had the outbreak. So it's looking like an old case of the disease. 
How true this is I don't know as I don't know how long the virus can stay active in the soil, does anyone on here know?
		
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anything from 5 days to around 24 I read somewhere. trouble is, if he did have it, local birds could now have it which could then pass it back.


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## Clodagh (5 May 2017)

Interesting though CdeM, and I hope that is the case. At least give us the summer!


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## cremedemonthe (5 May 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			anything from 5 days to around 24 I read somewhere. trouble is, if he did have it, local birds could now have it which could then pass it back.
		
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Thanks and yes you are right, it could be back out there, let's hope not, if it carries on I will give up keeping poultry as sick of it all.


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## Cecile (7 May 2017)

Hope no-one has posted this already, 2nd outbreak in Lancashire

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-39836276


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## Cecile (12 May 2017)

Just read this

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/update-on-measures-to-protect-poultry-against-avian-flu


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