# Does anyone know Shagya stallion Zeno?



## Mr Wolf (25 May 2013)

There was a Shagya Arabian stallion in Ireland called Zeno. he was at Myrtle lodge stud which no longer exists. Is this stallion still alive? Anyone knows of his whereabouts? Thanks


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## Rollin (25 May 2013)

Mr Wolf said:



			There was a Shagya Arabian stallion in Ireland called Zeno. he was at Myrtle lodge stud which no longer exists. Is this stallion still alive? Anyone knows of his whereabouts? Thanks
		
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There is a lady in Denmark who is an expert on the Shagya stud book, I will pm you her email address.


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## Mr Wolf (25 May 2013)

Thank you Rollin, much appreciated.


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## Rollin (30 May 2013)

Mr. Wolf,

Have you any success?  Can you post on this forum.  As a Shagya breeder I am interested to know more.


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## sert14 (4 June 2013)

Hi there have just seen your post, Zeno is no longer alive we have is daughter who was born at Mrytle Lodge, please let me know if you would like any more imformation
Regards Jackie


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## Mr Wolf (4 June 2013)

Hi Sert14,
 thank you for the information. I did talk to a lady who knew Terry White from Myrtle lodge. She could remember a stallion having a leg injury and having to be PTS. But I know Shagal was there and he died so was not sure if that was the stallion she was talking about. 
She has given me Terry Whites number but have been so busy with work that I still have not got in touch with him. He may know of a stallion that they bred who is in Ireland or England, it is worth a try.
It is very sad news that Zeno is no more. I am looking for a Shagya Stallion to cover my mare to breed a full blood Shagya.. I happen to see, when googling, that Zeno was in Ireland so thought I would follow that up.
My vets do not deal with Frozen semen so am a bit stuck really.

Hi Rollin,
I know about you from googling Shagya! You have a stallion called Under MIlkwood. I have never posted on any forum before but i was going to let you know how I got on. my computer has been out of action though..
Something that I found interesting, Zeno was 1/4 tersk. I always thought only Arab was allowed to be used. There is a bay Endurance Shagya stallion in France who also has Tersk in his pedigree. How did that come about?


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## Rollin (4 June 2013)

Mr Wolf said:



			Hi Sert14,
 thank you for the information. I did talk to a lady who knew Terry White from Myrtle lodge. She could remember a stallion having a leg injury and having to be PTS. But I know Shagal was there and he died so was not sure if that was the stallion she was talking about. 
She has given me Terry Whites number but have been so busy with work that I still have not got in touch with him. He may know of a stallion that they bred who is in Ireland or England, it is worth a try.
It is very sad news that Zeno is no more. I am looking for a Shagya Stallion to cover my mare to breed a full blood Shagya.. I happen to see, when googling, that Zeno was in Ireland so thought I would follow that up.
My vets do not deal with Frozen semen so am a bit stuck really.

Hi Rollin,
I know about you from googling Shagya! You have a stallion called Under MIlkwood. I have never posted on any forum before but i was going to let you know how I got on. my computer has been out of action though..
Something that I found interesting, Zeno was 1/4 tersk. I always thought only Arab was allowed to be used. There is a bay Endurance Shagya stallion in France who also has Tersk in his pedigree. How did that come about?
		
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I thought only 'approved' Arabians were allowed in the Shagya stud book, i.e. they go through the same grading as my boy.  I will ask two people in France who may know.

I do indeed own Woody who was disqualified after his first endurance aged 4 for being 10 mins too fast!!!  New to the game we were given the wrong time - he should have walked the last few kms!!!  This year he got the top points for all horses of all ages competing on the day.  We are pleased with him.


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## Rollin (4 June 2013)

A bit more.  I have just looked up some Tersk history and the original horses came from Syria.  The foundation stallion for the Shagya also came from Syria.

Both breeds were brought to Europe by breeders seeking to breed Cavalry horses.

I wonder if there are existing genetic links.

CBHS have recently been involved in a large genetic study of the Cleveland Bay which shows it is related to the Kabardin of the Caucasus mountains.  This study supports some historical research which indicates that the ancestors of the modern Cleveland Bay were a Cavalry Horses stationed at Hadrian's Wall during the Roman occupation of Britain.


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## Mr Wolf (4 June 2013)

Yes it is fascinating how breeds get started.
I did go on All Breed Database to look at Zeno's pedigree. According to that the Tersk side has a lot of Shagya Arab, Arab and even a bit of TB in the background.
There is a photo of Tibet a Tersk and he looks so like a Shagya!


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## Rollin (4 June 2013)

Mr Wolf said:



			Yes it is fascinating how breeds get started.
I did go on All Breed Database to look at Zeno's pedigree. According to that the Tersk side has a lot of Shagya Arab, Arab and even a bit of TB in the background.
There is a photo of Tibet a Tersk and he looks so like a Shagya!
		
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I think you will find there is some TB in the Shagya back pedigree.  The Shagya is 90% Arabian.  My two mares (including Woody's dam) came from the Hungarian National Stud at Babolna, which was an Imperial stud.  We visited them several years ago and I have a book - sadly in German - which traces the history.

You might like to look at the new Shagya World website that has rare photos of Ramzes who was an Anglo-Arab, the Arab portion being Shagya - from him descend the Z blood lines of Ramiro, Raimond and Ratina Z.  Apparently 50% of the competitors at the WEG in Germany had Ramzes in their pedigrees.  

To be fair if you search Oldenburg, Holstein, Hannoverian etc you will find plenty of Cleveland Bays.  (As an aside, if you look at the website of the German State  Stud hosting this years European Shagya Championships you will find they mention the importance of Clevelands and Yorkshire Coach horses in their breeding)

Milton's dam Aston Answer is a great grandaughter of Basa imported to the UK from Hungary, I believe he was the only Shagya stallion to stand in the UK.  Basa's onwer Henri Wymallen was given a gold medal by the BHS for his services to dressage.


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## sert14 (4 June 2013)

I spoke to Terry about 8 years ago, Zeno had osteoporosis i believe, our mare Joya ML was brought to the UK and sold as a TB, we then traced her to Mrytle Lodge because of her Shagya brand and number and DNA tests, are you in the UK? I dont think many Shagya,s are over here
Jackie


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## Rollin (4 June 2013)

I emailed two people in France and received the following replies re Tersk blood.

From Veronique "That's it : only pure Arabians and shagya were allowed in the Shagya stud book since XIXth century."

From Gabrielle  "Zeno is not any more in Ireland.
Tersk blood is pur arab blood (russian) and allowed in the Shagya breed."

I hope this helps.


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## Mr Wolf (5 June 2013)

hi Jackie,
Did not realise horses could get osteoporosis so what a shame as it must be quite rare.
I am in Norfolk, are you in Essex? I remember on one database seeing Zeno had 3 registered Fillies and there is a photo of one of them which I believe is your girl!

Hi Rolllin,
Well thats interesting about the Tersk! I have to say it is mostly Arab and Shagya in the background of Zeno's pedigree.
I neglected to congratulate you on Woody's success. I have done endurance myself though no further than 80km. 
The elderly mare I have is Brenta 3 you will probably recognise her name. She ended up for about a year in the wrong hands. She came to me on February 28th in poor condition but she is looking really well now. She was in foal to a TB. She foaled a colt on April 15th. He is gorgeous! He is called Mr Wolf!


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## sert14 (5 June 2013)

Hi there, yes we are in Essex and that would be our little ladies picture when she was about 4. Its a shame that there are not more in the UK would love to have another one she has been brilliant. What do you have?


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## Mr Wolf (5 June 2013)

Brenta is 20 yrs old and an ex international endurance horse. She has the most fantastic temperament. She is by Bazar. She gave birth so easily and is now looking so well that is why I thought I would look for a Shagya mate for her.

I have just got off the phone, I finally got to speak to Terry White! What a lovely man. He has only just come out of hospital though so i am sure he cannot have felt like talking to me!
He said the Shagyas just didn't go down well in Ireland or in England. Something to do with the word Arab!
They bred them mostly to warmbloods. That cross produced some good eventers.
He said they did sell some to England but most went back to Germany. he still has a mare called Carmina. 
He was telling me they have very hard feet, they do not break off like other horses. Brenta's were pretty long when she arrived.


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## Rollin (7 June 2013)

Mr Wolf said:



			hi Jackie,
Did not realise horses could get osteoporosis so what a shame as it must be quite rare.
I am in Norfolk, are you in Essex? I remember on one database seeing Zeno had 3 registered Fillies and there is a photo of one of them which I believe is your girl!

Hi Rolllin,
Well thats interesting about the Tersk! I have to say it is mostly Arab and Shagya in the background of Zeno's pedigree.
I neglected to congratulate you on Woody's success. I have done endurance myself though no further than 80km. 
The elderly mare I have is Brenta 3 you will probably recognise her name. She ended up for about a year in the wrong hands. She came to me on February 28th in poor condition but she is looking really well now. She was in foal to a TB. She foaled a colt on April 15th. He is gorgeous! He is called Mr Wolf!
		
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How sad Brenta was not well cared for and nice to know she is now in good hands.  If you have Photobucket do post a photo of Mr. Wolf.  I am afraid I don't do endurance myself I am too old and unfit I employ young jockeys!!  I do do the training though.

Arabians aren't for everyone.  When we visited the Hungarian National Stud at Babolna, we were able ride in the forest and were taken on a two hour carriage drive.  We were very enthused about the breed.  The Cleveland's are more comfy though!!

Amazingly last night I had a phone call from an English lady living in France, who had been told I might have a ShGxCB for sale.  She owned a CBxArab and said it was the best horse she had ever owned.


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## melbobineau (20 June 2013)

Rollin said:



			I think you will find there is some TB in the Shagya back pedigree.  The Shagya is 90% Arabian.  My two mares (including Woody's dam) came from the Hungarian National Stud at Babolna, which was an Imperial stud.  We visited them several years ago and I have a book - sadly in German - which traces the history.
		
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In fact, my shagya mare I've the english TB Whisker in her blood.


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## Rollin (20 June 2013)

Ah?  Are you in Italy or UK?  how is your mare? Do you have some photos? Woody has been having his first jumping lessons.


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## melbobineau (20 June 2013)

In UK near Cambridge but moving to surrey/hampshire soon.








I went on her few time over the winter but didn't have time to finish backing her (she had a abscess in Dec/Jan and then was to busy). So she is going to be broken this Saturday. Hopefull I'm changing job (was working from home this year) and will have more time for her.


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## melbobineau (20 June 2013)




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## melbobineau (20 June 2013)

Rollin said:



			Ah?  Are you in Italy or UK?  how is your mare? Do you have some photos? Woody has been having his first jumping lessons.
		
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how was it? does he seem to enjoy it?


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## Rollin (20 June 2013)

Your mare is looking very good.  How tall is she?

I think he does enjoy jumping but is very green.  The trainer has offered to jump him next year, he likes him very much.  

The rider in the photo is Natasha a student at our local agricultural college.  This computer won't talk to photobucket anymore, so here is a link to horsebreeders forum (I hope that works) he is also on Shagya World.

We have one mare in foal to him.

http://horsebreeders.myfastforum.org/about17991.html&highlight=

Woody might be going to Hampshire in October to have some jumping experience in the UK.  So you may see him.


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## melbobineau (20 June 2013)

Rollin said:



			Your mare is looking very good.  How tall is she?

I think he does enjoy jumping but is very green.  The trainer has offered to jump him next year, he likes him very much.  

The rider in the photo is Natasha a student at our local agricultural college.  This computer won't talk to photobucket anymore, so here is a link to horsebreeders forum (I hope that works) he is also on Shagya World.

We have one mare in foal to him.

http://horsebreeders.myfastforum.org/about17991.html&highlight=

Woody might be going to Hampshire in October to have some jumping experience in the UK.  So you may see him.
		
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where about in Hampshire? Send me a message/email if you preferred. I'm currently looking for a livery there as will be living near Woking and working in Basingstoke.


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## melbobineau (20 June 2013)

Saw the picture. It seems green of course but very willing and at ease. Good start!

Do you plan to make him compete in show-jumping or Eventing?


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## Mr Wolf (21 June 2013)

Hi Rollin, I did reply some time back but must have hit the wrong button, it isn't on here!What a shame your boy isn't over here now, Brenta is hot on heat!
How do i view photos on the other site? I do not have photobucket but would love you to see mr Wolf and give an opinion. Have a nephew who is hot with computers, he is living in Shanghai but over here in a couple of weeks so will get him to sort something, I am useless with computers!
Have you seen the site called 'Heirs of the Norfolk trotter & The Yorkshire Coach Horse'. Very interesting and love the wording of the original adverts for stallions at stud. Half a Guinea a Leap!
Googled trakehnersXShagyas and have come up with a young stallion called Omar. By a trekkie out of a Shagya mare. Phoned the owner who was away from home yesterday but am phoning again tonight to see how the mare is bred.
Only thing is the foal would still not be registered as a Shagya so am wondering if it is worth looking any further at that stallion.
Your thoughts?

The Lady in cambridge - not far from me! - love the photos of your mare!


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## Mr Wolf (21 June 2013)

Apologies if mel is not female


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## melbobineau (21 June 2013)

Mr Wolf said:



			Apologies if mel is not female

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I'm indeed a (french) female! So sorry if I do some mistake in English. 

 It's how I know Rollin. I've never meet her but she used the same stallion for her mare than the sire of my mare. I only saw 2 of her mare (a shagya and a CB) at the shagya stud in France which is quite near to my parents/holiday house. 

where about are you MR Wolf?

Rollin, for the size of Uranie, I'm not sure. She was quite small for her age at the confirmation at 3.1/2 year old but she growth since and still growing a bit. I will try to measure her soon. I'm curious too.


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## Mr Wolf (21 June 2013)

Hi Mel,
I live near Norwich in Norfolk.
What are your long term plans for your girl?
I have been trying to find a Shagya stallion in this country for my 20yr old broodmare, but there are none.


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## melbobineau (21 June 2013)

True you are not too far from us!

When I bough her my plan was to event her. I learn to ride in a equestrian centre in France that where only doing dressage and show-jumping in competition.  We had a small X-C jumps course in a field but flat. So was my dream to event.  But I did a few time some true X-C jumps when I was student in an other riding centre but I'm very confident jumping downhill. And that was 10 years ago. So, getting cool feet now. but that might change once I will ride my mare. 

In this reason, will be go for show-jumping in the main discipline and event/Le-trec/endurance for fun. but first we nee both some work as I don't ride regularly since I'm living in the UK. Although the teaching is in my opinion to a better standard that in France, I don't like the content "health & safety" reminder and don't like to go there only to ride and not take care of the horse (groom,tack-up, ....).


I my complete dream would like also to breed for her but witout my own land and the price to get some in the UK, I don't see that happening soon for now.


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## Rollin (21 June 2013)

Mr. Wolf,

Mel and I met through this forum, after I posted a pic of a young Woody.  As she says both our horses are sired by the EU Shagya Champion Tatianus - you can get frozen semen for him....or put your mare on a Ryanair flight Stansted-Tours and we will collect her!!!

Mel,

I will pm you.  The person who will school Woody is on holiday but it is a stud with lots of experience with stallions.  Location is the edge on the New Forest.


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## Mr Wolf (21 June 2013)

Have been emailed a copy of the Stallion Omar's mum. And guess what, she was bred at Myrtle Lodge, which didn't surprise me when I saw it!
She is by Babel, who of course is by Bajar. 
My mare is by another son of Bajar, didn't he sire a lot of Stallions!
The mother is Siglavy Bagdady XV-17 by Siglavy Bagdady XV out of 684 Koheilan XXXIII.


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## Mr Wolf (21 June 2013)

By the way Mel, I have managed to do just that, I have just 4 1/2 acres, not much but it's all mine! I live in a mobile home on site. I did try to get planning last year but the local council are not easy to deal with so am now fighting to stay in the mobile caravan I have liveed in for the last 6 years. Such is life hey?

I only do endurance, I am not brave enough to leave the ground!


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## melbobineau (21 June 2013)

Would be happy with 1-2 acre for now if was attached to my house! 

I've go 3000m2 (3/4 acres) but in France (family house) but there is not job for me and my partner in our respective field. 


Mr Wolf, I don't know if you saw the full pedigree of Zeno:

http://www.shagya.info/down/abst.pdf

http://www.shagya-database.ch/hengste.php


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## melbobineau (21 June 2013)

Mr Wolf said:



			By the way Mel, I have managed to do just that, I have just 4 1/2 acres, not much but it's all mine! I live in a mobile home on site. I did try to get planning last year but the local council are not easy to deal with so am now fighting to stay in the mobile caravan I have liveed in for the last 6 years. Such is life hey?

I only do endurance, I am not brave enough to leave the ground!
		
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keep hope. The owner of the yard where Uranie is just got permission to leave on site and I've I think 5 year to built something. She was turn down once but finally got it this year! So she just move to a mobile home on the yard last month! A bit jealous, I'm happy for her! 


Never did endurance but used to help some summer in the friend farm during the summer where I was riding sometimes more than 5 hours per day. Out of season we used to go with some friend for a day or two of Trekking. But since then I've got some injury in my knees and ankle. So no sure my articulations will resist to compete in endurance.  Still need to find out if I can still jump: I didn't jump for 3-4 years now! And how long I can ride without being painful.


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## Mr Wolf (21 June 2013)

Hi Mel, I saw Zeno's pedigree on that second site. 

Hi Rollin
I really do not know if I should use this Trakehner stallion. The Sire of my mare and the sire of the stallions mother are full brothers, so very close breeding there! The res tis very different though.
If Brenta didn't have a foal I think it would be a good idea to send her off to France! She is very used to travelling judging by her passport.


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## melbobineau (21 June 2013)

do you think that she will to get in foal by frozen semen due to her age? 

There is few good shagya stallion available by frozen semen from many countries (USA, France, Germany, Austria, Hungary, ....) ?


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## Mr Wolf (21 June 2013)

Oh I shall fight to the bitter end! I have had a lot of support from local people  and I will put those plans in again but the parish Council have said get the caravan sorted first. That is now in progress, but it all costs.

I was involved in a car crash about 3 weeks ago and the car was a write off.
Being an old car it means I will not get much from insurance so have now had to find the funds for another which means I do not have much to spend on Brenta at the moment. Very annoying.


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## Mr Wolf (21 June 2013)

I was in touch with a lady in the USA. Was all set to use one of her's but then found out there are no vets around here who deal with frozen semen only chilled.
That really surprised me, it kind of wrong footed me you know?


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## melbobineau (21 June 2013)

Weird! Maybe the vet in your region are not equip with a freezer!  To expensive? 


Hope to find a vet practice who does when I will decide to breed my mare. Being in the south east I hope so! Could always send her to France or Europe but will be scare she lose it with the stress of the travel! She did the trip 3 times and lost weight by stress every times.


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## melbobineau (21 June 2013)

Few breeder in France to in chilled and Fresh but I'm not sure it's available for the UK.


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## Rollin (21 June 2013)

Mr Wolf said:



			I was in touch with a lady in the USA. Was all set to use one of her's but then found out there are no vets around here who deal with frozen semen only chilled.
That really surprised me, it kind of wrong footed me you know?
		
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Why don't you ring Rossdales in Newmarket,  they are very helpful and are sure to know who can offer an AI service.  I have a feeling that it is possible to collect from Tatianus but it is 'high risk' because of the problems shipping from rural France.

I wish you luck with your planning difficulties.  When we lived in Scotland we had planning permission to put three loose boxes in a secluded part of our 6.5 acre site.  The consent came through for a toilet to be installed in the stable block - just 20 yards from the house!!!


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## melbobineau (21 June 2013)

Rollin: do you find planning easier in the UK or France? Maybe because I'm not from this country but find it more difficult in the UK from what I heard. 

I should definitely stop by to see you and all your horses next time we got done to the Charentes.


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## Rollin (22 June 2013)

Much easier in France.  We obtained a permit to extend this house without any problem.  We did not go ahead with it in the end, as there are just two of us and the house is big enough.

The only problem was that we were given a huge increase in Tax d'habitation without the authorities checking if we had built the extension.  Being France more paperwork to get our money back than for the original permit!!


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## megan49 (29 January 2014)

sert14 said:



			I spoke to Terry about 8 years ago, Zeno had osteoporosis i believe, our mare Joya ML was brought to the UK and sold as a TB, we then traced her to Mrytle Lodge because of her Shagya brand and number and DNA tests, are you in the UK? I dont think many Shagya,s are over here
Jackie
		
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It would be nice to know where other Shagya owners are in the UK.  I live in Wales and have a gelding, a mare, and also an unregistered colt conceived in Hungary.


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## melbobineau (29 January 2014)

Near Cambridge for me and my mare Uranie.

why not registering your colt in an other country. with blood sample should be possible.


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## megan49 (29 January 2014)

I intend to register him, and had all the relevant paperwork, but unfortunately have mislaid it, hopefully temporarily!


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## melbobineau (29 January 2014)

lets us know how you did it ad in which country. I might put my mare in foal one day.


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## megan49 (29 January 2014)

I have a stud website for my Welsh ponies at www.cwrtycadno.com and my email address is at the bottom of the home page.   What do you use your mare for?


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## melbobineau (29 January 2014)

she has been broken this summer so no much for now as I'm currently living away from her. so only few hacks when I am back. But I hope to go back to show jumping with her.  I was dream to event when younger but now not sure i would have the gut too now, except at a low level.


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## megan49 (29 January 2014)

I have sent you a private message with my email address - have you received it?


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## megan49 (29 January 2014)

Saw the photos of your mare - she is lovely!


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