# Grand National Fatalities - World Horse Welfare comment



## Sixteen Hands (15 April 2012)

World Horse Welfare responds to the news that horses Synchronised and According to Pete had to be put down on compassionate grounds after suffering injuries during the Grand National.

World Horse Welfare chief executive Roly Owers said:

_The deaths of Synchronised and According to Pete are a terrible tragedy and our thoughts go out to everyone connected with these horses who will clearly be devastated. Over the coming days it will be important to establish the facts.  There is no doubt that questions need to be asked and that is exactly what well be doing. We wont know what if any changes will need to be made until we know the exact circumstances of their falls.  Its hugely important to us that everything possible is being done to protect the safety of the horses and riders.

No race, especially the Grand National, can be without risks but there is a balance between acceptable and unacceptable risk and we need to strive to get that balance right.  _


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## LadyRascasse (15 April 2012)

Very balanced and well thought out statement!! Well done WHW now if the RSPCA could follow suit then we would be getting somewhere


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## Kokopelli (15 April 2012)

Toally agree LadyR.

Hopefully people will begin to realise the RSPCA are a dreadful organisation and start turning to better places like WHW.


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## Dobiegirl (15 April 2012)

A well considered statement very much like the one put out by the BHA.


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## MerrySherryRider (15 April 2012)

WHW sitting on the fence. Lets hope they come out with a more constructive statement after the investigation.


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## 1life (16 April 2012)

Kokopelli said:



			Toally agree LadyR.

Hopefully people will begin to realise the RSPCA are a dreadful organisation and start turning to better places like WHW.
		
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Sweeping staements that don't help anyone....

WHW have given a very pc reply but I feel they are right - there has a to be a balance to all sports between risk and outcome. Many friends of mine that have no horse knowlegde were very upset by the news of the 2 horses having to be put down. It has made them consider the risks involved for a relatively short sporting episode.


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## Kokopelli (16 April 2012)

1life said:



			Sweeping staements that don't help anyone....

WHW have given a very pc reply but I feel they are right - there has a to be a balance to all sports between risk and outcome. Many friends of mine that have no horse knowlegde were very upset by the news of the 2 horses having to be put down. It has made them consider the risks involved for a relatively short sporting episode.
		
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It's my opinion and I'm stating it. My experiences of the RSPCA have been dire, as are many other people I have talked to.

WHW from my experiences are a much better organisation. I believe it's because they are focused on equines so when it comes to dealing with horses they are more experienced.

ETA- I was also very upset by the two deaths and I'm glad the risks are being reviewed and hope the GN will become a much safer race without loosing it's essence.


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## Rowreach (16 April 2012)

I don't think WHW are sitting on the fence - I think it is a very grown up statement which shows they are waiting the outcome of an investigation and will have further to say at that time.

I am a staunch supporter of NH racing but I watched that race on Saturday and I think the GN has had it's day.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (16 April 2012)

Rowreach said:



			I don't think WHW are sitting on the fence - I think it is a very grown up statement which shows they are waiting the outcome of an investigation and will have further to say at that time.

I am a staunch supporter of NH racing but I watched that race on Saturday and I think the GN has had it's day.
		
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Agree with this; whilst I've never had the heart to put a bet on the GN I've never actually been "anti" it, but the past few years' casualties have begun to change my mind a bit. 

Naturally, any of us that have been around horses a while will unfortunately have had to be around and/or deal with a horse having to be PTS, but I just wonder whether some of the problem is the type of horses that are being asked to run the GN, and what sort of prior experience they've had???? And perhaps there's a tendency to breed chasers which (for speed) are lighter than their forebears, and therefore won't be able to stand the course the same?? Plus maybe a lot of runners and the problem of loose horses doesn't help either.


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## Amymay (16 April 2012)

They were on tv this morning.  Very balanced response, without the knee jerk reaction we commonly see from some organisations.


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## jaquelin (16 April 2012)

The review will be interesting as in spite of various safety-driven changes the fatalities continue.  I looked at old footage (1925) of the GN - a very different race - horses spread out both length-wise and across the course; very different type of horse, and an incredibly sedate start!  Now it has become a sort of flat race with jumps, so has changed in character a lot.  Of the two fatalities, there seems to be a consensus that Synchronised was not fit to run (physically or mentally) and that when he took off at the start he should have not been run after.  
With According to Pete, I was looking at his stats and it took him 50 starts (inc GN) to make around £200K.  The winner took 35 starts to make over £750K ( not including GN).  These two stats would suggest to me that According to Pete has been run  beyond his ability.  But then again his fall, being knocked down by another horse was a result of the "hurdle turned into a flat race" point I make above.  Times do change so perhaps the GN has had its day.


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## Rowreach (16 April 2012)

Jaquelin you are right - a very different race today from what it was, and the "old fashioned chaser" is now a thing of the past.  The "safety" improvements have, to my mind, been anything but.  I'm big into racing, I would love to have the money to own a good NH horse, but if I did he would never run in the GN in a million years.


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## Dobiegirl (16 April 2012)

Paul NIcholls was on our local news last night as they paraded Neptune Collonge through Ditcheat and he said we live in changing times and the GN will have to change as well.

Alistair Down writing in the Racing Post said" the GN was at a cathartic crossroads and we need to learn lessons  if it is to survive". This was meant to be the safest GN after improvements but has the opposite affect and this was working with the RSPCA whose recommendations were implemented.

Decisions about further improvements will not be made quickly as there are so many people to consult and they have to get it right if they want the GN to continue.


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## TBB (16 April 2012)

jaquelin said:



			.  
With According to Pete, I was looking at his stats and it took him 50 starts (inc GN) to make around £200K.  The winner took 35 starts to make over £750K ( not including GN).  These two stats would suggest to me that According to Pete has been run  beyond his ability.  But then again his fall, being knocked down by another horse was a result of the "hurdle turned into a flat race" point I make above.  Times do change so perhaps the GN has had its day.
		
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I don't think you can say ATP was being run beyond his ability just because he hadn't won as much prize money as the winner. He had jumped for fun and was going well when a horse fell in his path as he landed giving him no chance to avoid it, before that he had completed all his chase starts and the winner had fallen twice over fences and been brought down in a Newbury chase but survived it. It was unfortunate accidents that claimed both the horses this time but if they keep modifying the track by lowering the fences there will be more casualties as the speed will increase. My condolences to the connections of both horses who were owner bred.


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## Dobiegirl (16 April 2012)

In my opinion NC was the class horse in the field excluding Synchronised and was a grade 1 horse in his youth, he probabley would have one a gold cup or 2 if it hadnt been for the likes of Kauto Star and Denman.

According to Pete was a classy racehorse but did not run in grade 1 races unlike NC and that is where the prize money is the highest.


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## Maesfen (16 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Alistair Down writing in the Racing Post said" the GN was at a cathartic crossroads and we need to learn lessons  if it is to survive". This was meant to be the safest GN after improvements but has the opposite affect and this was working with the RSPCA whose recommendations were implemented.
		
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Precisely; the RSPCA recommendations.  Not exactly the result they wanted but is it any wonder?  They're not experienced enough in racehorses (or even any horse for that matter though they might investigate woodworm in a rocking horse) and that course to actually pass any opinions.  Everyone in the know would not have made those particular changes.  With the exception of the new qualifications needed and some of the vetting procedures plus the new horse area for after the race, they would have done well to stay out of it as they don't know enough to pass comment let alone insist on their proposals and changes to the course.

Incidentally, decent reply from the WHW, not a knee jerk reaction like some.


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## MyBoyChe (16 April 2012)

Im with you Rowreach.  I have followed NH racing since I was a kid in the 70s (remember the old ITV 7 with John Laurence, before he became Lord Oaksey) and absolutely love it.  I dont think the changes have helped, they have changed the character of the race not necessarily for the better, sadly.  I would also love to be able to own a half decent racehorse (I actually own an incredibly badly failed racehorse, but I love him), but if I did I could never let it run in the GN, I just think the risk factor is too high.  I know there is risk attached to everything but I prefer to try and keep the odds in my favour.  My OH asked me if I had any tips for the race, my reply, "yes, dont bother, too much of a lottery" .  I do get irritated by some of the stupid and totally irrelevant comments made by people who never watch racing, except on GN day.  In a way it is its own worst enemy, it attracts huge audiences,many of whom never watch another race and really dont understand horses or the people who work with them and, for the most part, love them.  Lets just hope, for the sake of our sport, that the powers that be manage to sort themselves out and come up with a solution that works.


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## sidesaddlelady1 (17 April 2012)

Kokopelli said:



			Toally agree LadyR.

Hopefully people will begin to realise the RSPCA are a dreadful organisation and start turning to better places like WHW.
		
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Whilst I despise the RSPCA I thought their man interviewed on Radio 4 on Sunday morning spoke a lot of good sense


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## viewfromahill (17 April 2012)

Rowreach said:



			I don't think WHW are sitting on the fence - I think it is a very grown up statement which shows they are waiting the outcome of an investigation and will have further to say at that time.

I am a staunch supporter of NH racing but I watched that race on Saturday and I think the GN has had it's day.
		
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Couldnt agree more!!!  We are a "very" horsey family who are not against NH racing in any shape or form BUT........thought it horrendous on Saturday, actually quite disturbed that these horses are no more through a race for "pleasure"?? with in our opinion way to many starters, and yes would now support any action to get this race banned and before anyone jumps on with "they are dealt with quickly - dont disagree - but if they werent in this race in the first place then they would likely still be alive and yes accidents in the field etc do happen that is life but sending out 40 odd horses hurtling towards a fence is no accident


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## viewfromahill (17 April 2012)

viewfromahill said:



			Couldnt agree more!!!  We are a "very" horsey family who are not against NH racing in any shape or form BUT........thought it horrendous on Saturday, actually quite disturbed that these horses are no more through a race for "pleasure"?? with in our opinion way to many starters, and yes would now support any action to get this race banned and before anyone jumps on with "they are dealt with quickly - dont disagree - but if they werent in this race in the first place then they would likely still be alive and yes accidents in the field etc do happen that is life but sending out 40 odd horses hurtling towards a fence is no accident
		
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And just a thought, its almost a certainty that some racehorses WILL be pts in the GN if this were Horse of the Year and it was the same odds would it go ahead?


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## Rowreach (17 April 2012)

viewfromahill said:



			And just a thought, its almost a certainty that some racehorses WILL be pts in the GN if this were Horse of the Year and it was the same odds would it go ahead?
		
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I was out on the yard Saturday morning, riding mine and watching my son ride his, and wondering which of the 40 GN runners would be dead by teatime   There is no other single race or competition where this thought would be in my head beforehand, as a given.


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## sidsmum (17 April 2012)

Rowreach said:



			I was out on the yard Saturday morning, riding mine and watching my son ride his, and wondering which of the 40 GN runners would be dead by teatime   There is no other single race or competition where this thought would be in my head beforehand, as a given.
		
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And that to me says it all. :-/


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## Over2You (17 April 2012)

Rowreach said:



			I was out on the yard Saturday morning, riding mine and watching my son ride his, and wondering which of the 40 GN runners would be dead by teatime   There is no other single race or competition where this thought would be in my head beforehand, as a given.
		
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That very thought goes through my head every time there is a jumps race!! However, I can confidently watch show jumping knowing the risks to the horses are minimal. In fact, out of the 20+ years I have spent watching SJ, I can count on one hand the number of horses I have seen suffer fatal injuries. Trust me, I have watched *THOUSANDS* of hours of the sport on TV and as a spectator. I can also relax watching Eventing as I know the sport has been made a lot safer. Dressage is always a pleasure to watch as I have *NEVER* seen, or heard of a horse dying during a test. Whereas with racing, *DOZENS* of horses die every year. Since the beginning of March (this year), *TWENTY SEVEN* horses have died on British racecourses!! Just how is that justifiable??

The racing fraternity consists of people who (despite saying otherwise) see horses as disposable commodities. No genuine animal lover would ever want to see horses put under as much stress, or put into situations where they could very easily lose their lives. If the owners of According to Pete cared for the horse as much as they say they did, there is no way they would have put him into one of the most dangerous races in the world. They even called him a "pet". That would be like a "devoted" dog owner gambling with their pet's life by deliberately throwing a toy onto a frozen lake, then seeing if their dog will come back with the toy, or drown in ice cold water. Or a dedicated cat owner allowing their pet to wander freely on a busy motorway.

Racing has always (and will continue) to kill vast numbers of horses, just so the owners, trainers, and jockeys can get their thrills. So that punters (who care nothing of horse welfare) can continue to make bets. Don't even try to say otherwise as it's the truth!!

Sickening!!


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## KautoStar1 (17 April 2012)

Over2You -  I would like to see you put your views to JP McManus or Peter Nelson and suggest they dont care about their horses.    Your comparisons are ridiculous and hysterical (& I dont mean in a funny way either). People like JP and Trevor Hemmings, for instance,  have fantastic breeding and retirement facilities for their horses and they want for nothing.  Peter Nelson and Malcolm Jefferson didnt send According to Pete out to run without careful consideration.  They sent him out with the belief he could win and that hed been trained specifically with the National in mind.  Dont you dare say they didnt care.

And please remember the millions of pounds racing ploughs into welfare and scientific developments.  Without racing, we, the ordinary horse owner and the owners of top dressage, show jumpers and event horses, would not have access to the marvellous treatments that are now available  the life-saving operations, tendon repair, lameness diagnostics etc etc,

As someone who has taken a horse to the races and come back without it, I can assure you, whether its a 90 rated seller or a 180 rated Gold Cup horse, the loss is felt by everyone involved.


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## Over2You (17 April 2012)

KautoStar1 said:



			Over2You -  I would like to see you put your views to JP McManus or Peter Nelson and suggest they dont care about their horses.    Your comparisons are ridiculous and hysterical (& I dont mean in a funny way either). People like JP and Trevor Hemmings, for instance,  have fantastic breeding and retirement facilities for their horses and they want for nothing.  Peter Nelson and Malcolm Jefferson didnt send According to Pete out to run without careful consideration.  They sent him out with the belief he could win and that hed been trained specifically with the National in mind.  Dont you dare say they didnt care.

And please remember the millions of pounds racing ploughs into welfare and scientific developments.  Without racing, we, the ordinary horse owner and the owners of top dressage, show jumpers and event horses, would not have access to the marvellous treatments that are now available  the life-saving operations, tendon repair, lameness diagnostics etc etc,

As someone who has taken a horse to the races and come back without it, I can assure you, whether its a 90 rated seller or a 180 rated Gold Cup horse, the loss is felt by everyone involved.
		
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I am sorry, but it still defies belief how much of a risk that owners, trainers, etc, are willing to put their horses under.

As for the research that racing funds. If you think that performing all kinds of horrific tests (including vivisection) on animals is okay, then I feel sorry for you. 

Please also try to justify the twenty-seven deaths since the start of March. I wonder what excuses you pro-racers will come up with!!


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## Dobiegirl (17 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			I am sorry, but it still defies belief how much of a risk that owners, trainers, etc, are willing to put their horses under.

As for the research that racing funds. If you think that performing all kinds of horrific tests (including vivisection) on animals is okay, then I feel sorry for you. 

Please also try to justify the twenty-seven deaths since the start of March. I wonder what excuses you pro-racers will come up with!!
		
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Where do you get your info from, vivisection oh my giddy aunt, after your suggestion on the other thread about lassoing loose horses you are clutching at straws, you really are losing the plot.


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## amandat (17 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			The racing fraternity consists of people who (despite saying otherwise) see horses as disposable commodities. No genuine animal lover would ever want to see horses put under as much stress, or put into situations where they could very easily lose their lives. If the owners of According to Pete cared for the horse as much as they say they did, there is no way they would have put him into one of the most dangerous races in the world. They even called him a "pet". That would be like a "devoted" dog owner gambling with their pet's life by deliberately throwing a toy onto a frozen lake, then seeing if their dog will come back with the toy, or drown in ice cold water. Or a dedicated cat owner allowing their pet to wander freely on a busy motorway.

Sickening!!
		
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I agree 1000% with KautoStar1 & find the above a sickening comment !!


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## Aces_High (17 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			The racing fraternity consists of people who (despite saying otherwise) see horses as disposable commodities. No genuine animal lover would ever want to see horses put under as much stress, or put into situations where they could very easily lose their lives. If the owners of According to Pete cared for the horse as much as they say they did, there is no way they would have put him into one of the most dangerous races in the world. They even called him a "pet". That would be like a "devoted" dog owner gambling with their pet's life by deliberately throwing a toy onto a frozen lake, then seeing if their dog will come back with the toy, or drown in ice cold water. Or a dedicated cat owner allowing their pet to wander freely on a busy motorway.

Racing has always (and will continue) to kill vast numbers of horses, just so the owners, trainers, and jockeys can get their thrills. So that punters (who care nothing of horse welfare) can continue to make bets. Don't even try to say otherwise as it's the truth!!

Sickening!!
		
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I am shocked at your very uneducated attempt of posting a comment with a complete lack of any knowledge of what is involved within the industry.  I do not expect everyone to enjoy racing but I certainly do not expect to hear narrow minded insensitive comments such as the above.  Disgusting.


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## Maesfen (17 April 2012)

Sadly it's what's to be expected from OTY but that doesn't excuse their behaviour at all.


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## Over2You (17 April 2012)

Here we go again. Anybody who is anti-racing must be un-knowledgeable. Please enlighten me as to why you think it is okay to put into horses into such dangerous situations? Where are the justifications in killing twenty-seven horses over the course of just a month-and-a-half?

As for racing funding extremely cruel experimentation programmes (including vivisection). Take a look at this. If it were untrue, then Animal Aid would have been legally obliged to remove all mention of it. However, the information has been on the site for years!

What's disgusting is that you racing lot think your "sport" is wonderful. Despite it being glaringly obvious that about the only thing it's good for is killing animals!!

There was nothing "sickening" about my comments whatsoever. My analogies were spot on. Any animal owner who genuinely loves their charges would *NEVER* put them in such perilous situations!! You are the ones who are losing the plot if you think your "sport" should still have its place in the 21st century. It continues to kill an alarmingly high number of horses, but all you can do is defend it. You should be ashamed - very ashamed!!


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## sidsmum (17 April 2012)

But how can 27 deaths on British racecourses since March of this year be justified?


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## Dab (17 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			Any animal owner who genuinely loves their charges would *NEVER* put them in such perilous situations!! You are the ones who are losing the plot if...
		
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Really??????? Never, ever, never?????

What about equine operations? Pretty perilous situation for horses, recovery from GA has a high mortality rate. Would you assume that those owners genuinely don't love their charges?

How about turning a laminitic prone horse out to grass with no muzzle etc, is that putting the horse in a perilous situation? Do the owners not love their horse? or are they just uneducated?

And another one...everytime a horse is sold on or changes hands you are putting it in a potentially perilous situation...unless you can see into the future. It could end up on that slaughter truck to europe.


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## olop (17 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			Here we go again. Anybody who is anti-racing must be un-knowledgeable. Please enlighten me as to why you think it is okay to put into horses into such dangerous situations? Where are the justifications in killing twenty-seven horses over the course of just a month-and-a-half?

As for racing funding extremely cruel experimentation programmes (including vivisection). Take a look at this. If it were untrue, then Animal Aid would have been legally obliged to remove all mention of it. However, the information has been on the site for years!

What's disgusting is that you racing lot think your "sport" is wonderful. Despite it being glaringly obvious that about the only thing it's good for is killing animals!!

There was nothing "sickening" about my comments whatsoever. My analogies were spot on. Any animal owner who genuinely loves their charges would *NEVER* put them in such perilous situations!! You are the ones who are losing the plot if you think your "sport" should still have its place in the 21st century. It continues to kill an alarmingly high number of horses, but all you can do is defend it. You should be ashamed - very ashamed!!
		
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Animal aid is about as eccentric as your posts !


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## Elf On A Shelf (17 April 2012)

Everytime I release a horse onto the track I expect it to die. In fact I am very upset if the damned thing has the cheek to survive! I mean at the end of the day we will just get another one in to take it's place.

Yeah bloody right!!!!! 

By the way there is 3 days racing at Perth this month - 25th, 26th & 27th! Followed up by Fife Point To Point on Saturday. Over2You please do come along and introduce yourself to me. I am sure we shall have a merry chat and I can point you in the direction of a few other who would be interested in your views.


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## lachlanandmarcus (17 April 2012)

sidsmum said:



			But how can 27 deaths on British racecourses since March of this year be justified?
		
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Umm how can 2222 deaths in car accidents in the UK (2009 latest figures available) be justified? Perhaps we should ban car driving too, since there is a really forseeable risk of death and people take their kiddies out in the cars too, and the kiddies have no choice like the horses. So no more children in cars at the very least!......from today!

It is the demands of so called welfare organisations like RSPCA (thankfully not many listen to the loopier ones) to endlessly lower the fences, put gaps at the edge etc that have made the Grand National way more of a headlong sprint in the first circuit and way more dangerous. Synchronised for one I believe would be still with us if the racing authorities had not gone down the line of introducing 'escape' lanes at the side of fences under pressure from RSPCA et al and so would one a couple of years back who did exactly the same thing.

These people, I believe, should be far more ashamed than any of the horse lovers on this forum, since they mistake grandstanding politicking and stoking up the masses for knowledge and sober analysis of the fact that the GN needs to be a slower run race on softer ground with blinkin big fences that horses think twice about tackling if they are not a real GN type ie they refuse to jump them rather than trying and falling).

NB Ironic to have a username of a famous eventer when presumably you'd want to see that banned too......


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## Dab (17 April 2012)

sidsmum said:



			But how can 27 deaths on British racecourses since March of this year be justified?
		
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How can 80,000 equines destined for the slaughter houses of europe, travelling in unaccetable conditions be justified? 

It is tragic because none deserve to be in that situation and their owners should have been responsible enough to ensure they never ended up on that meat wagon. By passing them on they put them in the ultimate perilous situation! Garanteed death, having already suffered hours/ days and weeks of appauling abuse.

You are perfectly entitled to crusade against racing if that is where you think your efforts for change to equine welfare issues are best utilised. Others might believe that racing do a good enough job and there are bigger fish to fry.


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## sidsmum (17 April 2012)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			Umm how can 2222 deaths in car accidents in the UK (2009 latest figures available) be justified? Perhaps we should ban car driving too, since there is a really forseeable risk of death and people take their kiddies out in the cars too, and the kiddies have no choice like the horses. So no more children in cars at the very least!......from today!
		
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Deaths from day to day driving is a silly comparison to make. 



lachlanandmarcus said:



			NB Ironic to have a username of a famous eventer when presumably you'd want to see that banned too......
		
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Are you referring to my name or someone else?!  That's the name of my horse!   And no I wouldn't want to see eventing banned unless the percentages of deaths were similar to that of racing.



Dab said:



			How can 80,000 equines destined for the slaughter houses of europe, travelling in unaccetable conditions be justified?
		
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They can't. 



Dab said:



			You are perfectly entitled to crusade against racing if that is where you think your efforts for change to equine welfare issues are best utilised. Others might believe that racing do a good enough job and there are bigger fish to fry.
		
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I'm not crusading against racing I simply don't like it and will say so - same as hunting.  

What is wrong with clearing up our own back yard too?  Something that is wrong no matter how little or big the wrong is still wrong.  Why should it be ignored?


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## lachlanandmarcus (17 April 2012)

Deaths from day to day driving is a silly comparison to make.

No, not really that silly. An activity which has a known risk of death to living creatures who have no 'say' in whether they take part ie children carried in motor cars, but which we do anyway because the benefit overall outweighs the risk in the minds of those who look at it rationally.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by lachlanandmarcus  
NB Ironic to have a username of a famous eventer when presumably you'd want to see that banned too...... 

Are you referring to my name or someone else?! That's the name of my horse!  
Was referring there to Over2Yous contribution.....


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## Miss L Toe (17 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			Here we go again. Anybody who is anti-racing must be un-knowledgeable. Please enlighten me as to why you think it is okay to put into horses into such dangerous situations? Where are the justifications in killing twenty-seven horses over the course of just a month-and-a-half?

As for racing funding extremely cruel experimentation programmes (including vivisection). Take a look at this. If it were untrue, then Animal Aid would have been legally obliged to remove all mention of it. However, the information has been on the site for years!

What's disgusting is that you racing lot think your "sport" is wonderful. Despite it being glaringly obvious that about the only thing it's good for is killing animals!!

There was nothing "sickening" about my comments whatsoever. My analogies were spot on. Any animal owner who genuinely loves their charges would *NEVER* put them in such perilous situations!! You are the ones who are losing the plot if you think your "sport" should still have its place in the 21st century. It continues to kill an alarmingly high number of horses, but all you can do is defend it. You should be ashamed - very ashamed!!
		
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I assume you are an extremist with no experience of working in racing.
Welfare cases like Spindles Farm are causing unnecessary and illegal suffering of horses and ponies, these are the people who should be the target of your anger.


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## Dab (17 April 2012)

Who is saying they should be ignored? Most appear to agree that in terms of the GN, an unbiased review is required and then the appropriate actions taken.


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## sidsmum (17 April 2012)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			Quote:
Originally Posted by lachlanandmarcus  
NB Ironic to have a username of a famous eventer when presumably you'd want to see that banned too...... 

Are you referring to my name or someone else?! That's the name of my horse!  
Was referring there to Over2Yous contribution.....
		
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I did wonder!  My bad! 

I do disagree about your comparison to driving, driving is not a sport and not 'for fun' it is a totally different scenario.


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## sidsmum (17 April 2012)

Dab said:



			Who is saying they should be ignored? Most appear to agree that in terms of the GN, an unbiased review is required and then the appropriate actions taken.
		
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You are right in the majority people are saying that and I 'hope' that things will change for the better.  Call me cynical I just can't help but think that when large amounts of money and prestige are involved change is hard.


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## Dab (17 April 2012)

But change to the GN has happened year in and year out. Some good - better cool down facilities and the like, and some that have not achieved as much as hoped. What makes you think they won't make changes this time?
Sadly for the other issue mentioned ie transport of horses to europe for slaughter hasn't changed even after a huge campaign in the last year


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## Dab (17 April 2012)

Sadly I take the opposite view that because there is not huge prestige or money involved with the transport issue, nothing will change!


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## sidsmum (17 April 2012)

But horses are still dying so the changes have not had the desired effect.  Because the GN is such a high profile race (if not the most high profile) then public pressure/coverage almost forces changes.  But in my opinion because horses are still dying the changes are not good enough.  Less runners would be a good start though.

ETA I'm not a big follower of racing and although I used to watch the GN as a kid it's not something I follow.  It's more something that is on and makes my stomach knot up hoping that they all get round.

That is my experiance of the race - I don't claim to know much about it, I just don't like the results. :-/


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## sidsmum (17 April 2012)

Dab, I think we cross posted and sort of said the same thing from different sides there!  

Yes, horse transport sadly isn't in the public eye enough.  Not the general public eye anyhow.  It's a terrible and prolonged way to end an equines life.


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## Elf On A Shelf (17 April 2012)

A bit of food for thought:

This years National was ran in a time of 9m5s. On Good to Soft ground. The first circuit was completed in 4mins36s.

Red Rum's 1st National was ran in a time of 9mins1s. On Firm ground. The first circuit was completed in 4mins40s. 

So Red Rums first lap was 4 seconds slower than Neptunes but they finished the entire race 4 seconds faster. Over bigger, stiffer fences.


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## Over2You (18 April 2012)

Please answer my question!! How can you justify almost thirty horses dying in under two months?? Do not reply with questions!!

For the record - I am against cruelty - full stop!! I am all for putting an end to live transport to Europe. It's a disgustingly vile practice that makes my blood boil!! I have signed numerous petitions, and donated to charities that campaign against it. Do not get me started on Spindles Farm!! 

As for the comparisons to risky surgeries, and not letting laminitic horses/ponies graze, etc, etc. Those things are done to *HELP* the animals!! Racing horses to the point of them dripping with sweat, and struggling to catch breath does *NOT* help them!! It's a horrible thing to do to them!! Racing them at two-years-old is barbaric!! As is sending them hurtling over gargantuan obstacles (knowing there is a very good chance they'll suffer catastrophic injuries).

So, come on, why do you readily do those things to the horses you profess to love??


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## Hunters (18 April 2012)

Over2you, you would seem to have fairly extremist views. I wonder how informed you are?  Have you ever been to Lambourn open day and visited the horses, the stables, talked to the grooms, seen the care that goes into looking after these beautiful animals?  Somehow I doubt it.


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## Amymay (18 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			Here we go again. Anybody who is anti-racing must be un-knowledgeable.
		
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But you so clearly are......

As said by another poster - have you actually spent time with trainers, lads & lasses, owners etc??

Have your views by all means, but at least make them informed views rather than the odd snippet of often inaccurate information picked up from the internet (plus your own rather narrow minded view of things).

Why not take some time to spend a month or even more going round the various yards and educating yourself on the goings on of the racing industry.  You may still come out not liking racing, but at least you will be more informed rather than making some of the ridiculous sweeping statements that you do.


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## Hunters (18 April 2012)

Well said Amymay. 

The Grand National is a day when all eyes focus on racing, it becomes the shop window for racing. 

Perhaps lessons can be learnt, but one shouldn't condemn a huge industry on one race.


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## Dab (18 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			For the record - I am against cruelty - full stop!!
		
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Yet by your own admission you are happy to confidently watch and possibly maybe even enjoy SJ. Where some rather cruel practices have been known to be employed to encourage the horses not to touch the poles. Such as over-tightening of boots, or putting a little something inside them.

Standards and double spring to mind but not necessarily in that order!


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## Amymay (18 April 2012)

And another thing O2Y why do you never respond to people when they point out your inaccuracies (blood on the quarters of the winning horse in the GN)?  Or to those who make a point of reassuring you about the lives of retired racehorses (my post to you about several ex-racers and their lives off the track)?  

Is it because it only suits you to be so negative, or because you simply can't be arsed????


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## Amymay (18 April 2012)

Dab said:



			Yet by your own admission you are happy to confidently watch and possibly maybe even enjoy SJ. Where some rather cruel practices have been known to be employed to encourage the horses not to touch the poles. Such as over-tightening of boots, or putting a little something inside them.

Standards and double spring to mind but not necessarily in that order!
		
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Yep, can't have it both ways.

Also dressage - Rollkur.........


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## Cumulonimbus (18 April 2012)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			Synchronised for one I believe would be still with us if the racing authorities had not gone down the line of introducing 'escape' lanes at the side of fences under pressure from RSPCA et al and so would one a couple of years back who did exactly the same thing.
		
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I thought that in the video you could see Synchronised get up and jump the fences at the back of the field so escape lanes arent relevant?

I dont think that escape lanes can really be blamed for any of the four deaths in the last two years. According to Pete's fall came after a missed fence and maybe it was a bit harder to sort themselves out, especially as the loose horse that maybe caused On his own to fall was stopping them from spreading out more, but these things do happen. Looking further back, the three deaths between 2006 and 2008 were all caused by horses running loose, at least officially, and it was my understanding that the escape lanes would hopefully mean that the horses were less likely to jump the fences when loose.


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## Over2You (18 April 2012)

I am still waiting on you answering my questions. Where are the justifications in killing twenty-seven horses since March?? Why do you continue to do those horrific things to the horses you profess to love?? Answers please!!


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## KautoStar1 (18 April 2012)

Look, Im no lover of the BHA, I think theyve made a Horlicks of a few things recently, but they do keep good records and attached is a link to its injuries and fatalities page.  I think approx. 14000 horses are in NH training and according to the BHA stats, approx. 4 in every 1000 suffer fatalities, which equates to approx. 56 horses a year.  Clearly everyone would prefer that number to be no horses, but as a %age it works out at about 0.2% of all runners.   there are others who break down in training, but proportionally probably less than SJers, dressage horses and eventers and certainly considerably less than the average leisure horse.    I know those comparisons are a bit woolly because I dont have any figures for other sports, but the one thing racing does very well is measure itself and publish its results so it is transparent.

At the moment I cant find any details relating to 30 horses dying since March, so I would be interested to know where that figure came from, if O2Y could enlighten that would be helpful.

I dont think anyone is happy for any horse to die in any sport, but we need to distinguish between cruelty and accidents.   There is a very big difference.

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/injuries-fatalities.asp


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## Hunters (18 April 2012)

Quote: Winston Churchill - A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject...

Whilst there is possibly room for improvement with regards to this race, especially the start. What a 'cock up!'  The whole of the hugely successful British race industry should not be condemned upon the result of the most well known race in the world.

But one cannot always change or open some people's blinkered views...


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## Amymay (18 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			I am still waiting on you answering my questions.
		
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I'd like you to answer my questions too please, plus some of the other questions you've been asked.


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## amandat (18 April 2012)

Over2you ... maybe you should email a few racing yards & ask them your question about justification.  It's very very sad & to say Jockeys, owners & trainers have no feelings for the horses is what i found sickening about your rather large post before, & you state it's the "TRUTH" but it is just your opinion. I'm sure everyone at the yards of any horse that has died recently must still feel the lose of such amazing animals everytime they pass the empty stable that used to have a great character in it.


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## Elf On A Shelf (18 April 2012)

amandat said:



			Over2you ... maybe you should email a few racing yards & ask them your question about justification.  It's very very sad & to say Jockeys, owners & trainers have no feelings for the horses is what i found sickening about your rather large post before, & you state it's the "TRUTH" but it is just your opinion. I'm sure everyone at the yards of any horse that has died recently must still feel the lose of such amazing animals everytime they pass the empty stable that used to have a great character in it.
		
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I've offered a tour of our yard and a trip to the races to O2Y as they clearly can't be far from us but I never get a response. Hey Ho! Some people like to live in their own little bubble world!


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## Alec Swan (18 April 2012)

EKW said:



			I've offered a tour of our yard and a trip to the races to O2Y as they clearly can't be far from us but I never get a response. Hey Ho! Some people like to live in their own little bubble world!
		
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EKW,

sooner or later it will occur to you (read back through just about every post which has been offered by O2Y),  that they have no interest what so ever in learning,  but every interest in promoting their own poorly argued and ill informed and biased and pointless views.  

Debate with idiots is pointless. 

Alec.

Just as a PS,  I wish that someone would offer me a tour of a racing yard. a.


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## Dobiegirl (18 April 2012)

http://www.racingpost.com/news/hors...eel-deep-sadness-and-devastation/1017222/top/

This statement has just been released by JP Mcmanus on the loss of Synchronised.


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## Amymay (18 April 2012)

EKW said:



			I've offered a tour of our yard and a trip to the races to O2Y as they clearly can't be far from us but I never get a response. Hey Ho! Some people like to live in their own little bubble world!
		
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A really generous offer.


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## amandat (18 April 2012)

I'd seen that EKW   the email suggestion woz due to the fact that most people posting on websites have the anonymity of being behind a pc screen & feel confident in their opinions that way - if i lived anywhere near you i'd offer to pretend to have the same views & take their place on the visit haha 

I found the comments made insulting to certain members of my family on my dads side & the knock on to all involved in the same way as them - my grandad was a trainer & he was a truly lovely man, the owners he trained for had maximum respect for him & in turn my grandad had maximum respect for the jockeys & they all had that same respect for the horses they were involved with.   My aunts etc tell me that Richard Dunwoody used to sneak down to the yard my nan & grandad were at & my nan used to let him ride at weekends - don't know how true that is but it's something i've heard loads of times !!!


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## Over2You (18 April 2012)

So far, I have had statistics thrown at me, been asked questions (despite me requesting otherwise), and even received an invitation to a racing yard and a day at the races!! *NONE* of you have answered my questions. How can you justify the deaths of twenty-seven horses since the start of last month?? To make that number even bigger for you, *FORTY-ONE* horses have perished since the beginning of this year!! How can you readily support an industry that pours money into horrifically cruel animal experimentation programmes?? How can you defend making animals race when their musculature and skeletal systems havent fully developed?? How can you defend putting their lives in so much danger when you send them jump racing??

You lot are worse than politicians when it comes to answering a question truthfully. You prefer to pussyfoot around the question, trying to deflect attention away from it. I will not stop asking you to tell me why you think it is okay to kill as many horses in the name of "sport". Why you think it is alright to put their lives in such serious jeopardy.

I am by no means blinkered or narrow-minded. I have seen countless horses suffer all kinds of fatal injuries while racing. I know that more than *FORTY* horses have killed so far this year. I am more than disgusted!! How you can continue to make excuses for it is well beyond me!!


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## Baggybreeches (18 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			So far, I have had statistics thrown at me, been asked questions (despite me requesting otherwise), and even received an invitation to a racing yard and a day at the races!! *NONE* of you have answered my questions. How can you justify the deaths of twenty-seven horses since the start of last month?? To make that number even bigger for you, *FORTY-ONE* horses have perished since the beginning of this year!! How can you readily support an industry that pours money into horrifically cruel animal experimentation programmes?? How can you defend making animals race when their musculature and skeletal systems havent fully developed?? How can you defend putting their lives in so much danger when you send them jump racing??

You lot are worse than politicians when it comes to answering a question truthfully. You prefer to pussyfoot around the question, trying to deflect attention away from it. I will not stop asking you to tell me why you think it is okay to kill as many horses in the name of "sport". Why you think it is alright to put their lives in such serious jeopardy.

I am by no means blinkered or narrow-minded. I have seen countless horses suffer all kinds of fatal injuries while racing. I know that more than *FORTY* horses have killed so far this year. I am more than disgusted!! How you can continue to make excuses for it is well beyond me!!
		
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You really are tiresome aren't you? You are the person that supposes and adds random (and irrelevant statistics to your argument, I am guessing the 27/41 figure is one that has been obtained from one of the anti-racing propaganda sites funded by Animal Aid, I have said it before and said it again Animal Aid are nothing short of emotional terrorists and we (the rational mentally stable amongst us) know that there is no point in debating or negotiating with such extremists.


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## Amymay (18 April 2012)

Why can't we ask you questions....??

Why wouldn't you want to learn more? EKW's invitation.

Why won't you answer questions?


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## Elf On A Shelf (18 April 2012)

Over2You there has only been a handgul of 2yos race this year do far as races for them dont start until the beginning of the flat turf season which was a few weeks ago at Doncaster. They aren't allowed in the all weather before then either.


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## Baggybreeches (18 April 2012)

EKW said:



			Over2You there has only been a handgul of 2yos race this year do far as races for them dont start until the beginning of the flat turf season which was a few weeks ago at Doncaster. They aren't allowed in the all weather before then either.
		
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I think O2Y was maybe referring to the racing in Dubai?


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## Elf On A Shelf (18 April 2012)

Baggybreeches said:



			I think O2Y was maybe referring to the racing in Dubai?
		
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Probably right, I forgot about Dubai!


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## Goldenstar (18 April 2012)

Ok I got it OTY hates racing I'm just off for a gin.


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## Over2You (19 April 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			EKW,

sooner or later it will occur to you (read back through just about every post which has been offered by O2Y),  that they have no interest what so ever in learning,  but every interest in promoting their own poorly argued and ill informed and biased and pointless views.  

Debate with idiots is pointless. 

Alec.

Just as a PS,  I wish that someone would offer me a tour of a racing yard. a.
		
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Once again, anybody who is anti-racing must be an idiot. Must be totally clueless. There was me thinking that racing routinely puts horses in highly dangerous situations. That more than forty horses have died since the start of the year. How stupid of me!! Racing is actually an extremely safe sport for horses. That it hardly kills any horses whatsoever!!


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## Over2You (19 April 2012)

amymay said:



			Why can't we ask you questions....??

Why wouldn't you want to learn more? EKW's invitation.

Why won't you answer questions?
		
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It's late, and I can't be bothered to go through every single post again. I will answer what questions I can remember. No, I have never been to a racing yard. Wouldn't want to either. I have spoken to a retired jockey, though. I let my views be known, and when I asked how he could justify the high number of horse fatalities, he spun my question into more questions. He never gave me a direct answer. The same as what you lot are doing on here. 

I ask you again. Why do you continue to view your "sport" through rose tinted glasses, despite the *FACT* that it has killed more than forty horses in just four-and-a-half months?? Why can you see nothing wrong with a "sport" that funds *VIVISECTION*?? Why do you find it acceptable that your "sport" regularly plays Russian Roulette with the lives of so many horses?? 

Answers please!!


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## Over2You (19 April 2012)

Baggybreeches said:



			You really are tiresome aren't you? You are the person that supposes and adds random (and irrelevant statistics to your argument, I am guessing the 27/41 figure is one that has been obtained from one of the anti-racing propaganda sites funded by Animal Aid, I have said it before and said it again Animal Aid are nothing short of emotional terrorists and we (the rational mentally stable amongst us) know that there is no point in debating or negotiating with such extremists.
		
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Me, tiresome?? What about you?? I have asked several questions umpteen times, but you are *NOT* answering me!! You are the ones who are getting tiresome!!

As for me adding "irrelevant statistics". Are the deaths of more than forty horses irrelevant here?? We are on a thread about equine fatalities, right?? Did Animal Aid lie about those horses dying in order to get more people onto their anti-racing bandwagon?? Are all the grisly photos on the site of horses with snapped legs, and broken necks fake?? Is all the information on Animal Aid's website completely untrue?? If it were, then it would have been subject to legal action. Might be something to do with making slanderous, libelous, defamatory comments!! But, hey, there isn't a thing the racing industry can do as all the information on Animal Aid is the truth!! You just can't stand that there is an organisation out there exposing your "sport" for what it really is - cruel, barbaric, and a ritualistic horse killer!!


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## Amymay (19 April 2012)

So the depth of your research is talking to a retired jockey, and snippets from the internet....

As for vivisection - do you take prescription or over the counter medication?

Do you use makeup?

Do you use washing powder?


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## Hunters (19 April 2012)

As I mentioned earlier, the word 'fanatic' comes to mind.  We are all entitled to our opinions, but to speak as expert, and admit that the knowledge gained on this subject is from an ex jockey is one of the most ridiculous things I have heard in a very long time.  Equally to admit to this fact is not the brightest.

My sister is a reporter and if she wrote an article spouting off as you have based on the information (or lack of it as in your case) she would be fired.

O2U - you fanatically stick to your I'll informed opinions, you have lost all credibility and come across as an animal rights nutter I'm afraid.


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## Maesfen (19 April 2012)

If it wasn't that I'm too nosy by half, OTY would have been on user ignore a long time ago but sometimes it does you good to see what drivel some can write and think they can get away with just because they shout the loudest.


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## Amymay (19 April 2012)

O2Y I also assume that you have a horse (or at least have had one)......


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## Baggybreeches (19 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			Me, tiresome?? What about you?? I have asked several questions umpteen times, but you are *NOT* answering me!! You are the ones who are getting tiresome!!

As for me adding "irrelevant statistics". Are the deaths of more than forty horses irrelevant here?? We are on a thread about equine fatalities, right?? Did Animal Aid lie about those horses dying in order to get more people onto their anti-racing bandwagon?? Are all the grisly photos on the site of horses with snapped legs, and broken necks fake?? Is all the information on Animal Aid's website completely untrue?? If it were, then it would have been subject to legal action. Might be something to do with making slanderous, libelous, defamatory comments!! But, hey, there isn't a thing the racing industry can do as all the information on Animal Aid is the truth!! You just can't stand that there is an organisation out there exposing your "sport" for what it really is - cruel, barbaric, and a ritualistic horse killer!!
		
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I have answered your questions that were directed at me. I cannot/will not answer for others as I believe FIRST HAND experience and not hearsay or supposition is the most accurate basis for reasonable argument. Animal Aid did not make up the fact that 41 horses died, but it's the way in which they skew and twist facts to suit their own propaganda filled needs that loses them credibility in the eyes of people who are genuinely upset at the fact that 3 horses died at Aintree last weekend.
Why you would want to look at grisly photos of horses with snapped legs and broken necks is beyond me, but then, in view of your particularly extremist standpoint I can only assume you obtain some kind of perverse satisfaction from the 'perceived justification' of your opinion on racing?


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## Amymay (19 April 2012)

And also, if we're talking vivisection - do you have a cat or a dog?  Do you feed them pet food?


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## Sherri (19 April 2012)

O2Y 

I think you might find these website interesting reading, I'll answer your questions in more depth later 

http://www.targetofopportunity.com/PeTA.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Webb

http://enielmeewhatisgood.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/rspca-controversy.html

http://rspcainjustice.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/rspca-admit-dog-killing-agenda-theyve.html


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## Amymay (19 April 2012)

Sherri said:



http://www.targetofopportunity.com/PeTA.htm

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Nearly 95% of adoptable cats and dogs last year....

RSPCA destroyed over 60,000 animals in 2008.....


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## Alec Swan (19 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			Once again, anybody who is anti-racing must be an idiot. Must be totally clueless. There was me thinking that racing routinely puts horses in highly dangerous situations. That more than forty horses have died since the start of the year. How stupid of me!! Racing is actually an extremely safe sport for horses. That it hardly kills any horses whatsoever!!  

Click to expand...

At last,  you're starting to see sense.  It took a while,  but we got there,  eventually. 

Perhaps you'll also now agree with me that there is risk attached to any horse,  at any time,  and any where.  There's risk whilst they're in a stable,  a paddock (there are probably more paddock accidents than racing accidents,  but we'll skate around that,  for now).  There's risk when a horse is taken onto a public highway,  or travels in a lorry.  There's risk when any horse is competed,  in any discipline,  in fact,  horses from the risk factor,  are a liability. 

As a matter of interest,  I wonder if you keep horses,  and I also wonder at what level do you set a reasonable risk level.  Answer that,  and your arguments may have a greater credibility.

I have no wish to be offensive,  but it staggers me that on this forum,  others seem to take you seriously.  

Alec.


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## Dab (19 April 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			At last,  you're starting to see sense.  It took a while,  but we got there,  eventually. 

Perhaps you'll also now agree with me that there is risk attached to any horse,  at any time,  and any where.  There's risk whilst they're in a stable,  a paddock (there are probably more paddock accidents than racing accidents,  but we'll skate around that,  for now).  There's risk when a horse is taken onto a public highway,  or travels in a lorry.  There's risk when any horse is competed,  in any discipline,  in fact,  horses from the risk factor,  are a liability. 

As a matter of interest,  I wonder if you keep horses,  and I also wonder at what level do you set a reasonable risk level.  Answer that,  and your arguments may have a greater credibility.

I have no wish to be offensive,  but it staggers me that on this forum,  others seem to take you seriously.  

Alec.
		
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Not sure you'll get any agreement from O2Y there!

But you could consider that others might prefer to reply to such posts in order to provide some balance and reasoning on a thread....there are impressionable minds out there


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## chloe12345 (19 April 2012)

I think its unfair that people are finding it hard to believe that some of us horse lovers dont agree with horse racing ?? It shocks me that i see horse owners are boasting on facebook about how much theyve won , and oh what a shame about that horse that died !! Discusting in my opinion but hey its the horsey world everyone has an opinion !!


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## Amymay (19 April 2012)

chloe12345 said:



			I think its unfair that people are finding it hard to believe that some of us horse lovers dont agree with horse racing ??
		
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Oh there is nothing wrong with objecting to horse racing at all.  But if someone is going to spout 'fact's' based around spurious research and opinion then of course people are going to question the posters position.

It's very interesting that EKW has offered O2Y the opportunity of visiting her yard, and going to a race meet with her etc. to find out facts first hand - only to be rebutted.  Sure, you may still not like the sport - but at least you'd have a better understanding of the ins and outs of it.......


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## Moomin1 (19 April 2012)

amymay said:



			Oh there is nothing wrong with objecting to horse racing at all.  But if someone is going to spout 'fact's' based around spurious research and opinion then of course people are going to question the posters position.

It's very interesting that EKW has offered O2Y the opportunity of visiting her yard, and going to a race meet with her etc. to find out facts first hand - only to be rebutted.  Sure, you may still not like the sport - but at least you'd have a better understanding of the ins and outs of it.......
		
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Haven't read more than three of the posts on here as eyes riddled with conjunctivitis , so may be very misinformed by writing this, but why is everyone getting so het up?!  If OTY disagrees with racing, so what?  And what would be the point in her going to a race meeting - that would be a kin to telling a vegetarian to eat a hamburger and visit a slaughterhouse before they can comment on why they are vegetarian?!  

I don't know anything about animal aid and don't wish to - but I do agree that there are far too many deaths/injuries associated with the likes of the GN.


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## Baggybreeches (19 April 2012)

chloe12345 said:



			I think its unfair that people are finding it hard to believe that some of us horse lovers dont agree with horse racing ?? It shocks me that i see horse owners are boasting on facebook about how much theyve won , and oh what a shame about that horse that died !! Discusting in my opinion but hey its the horsey world everyone has an opinion !!
		
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Like I have stated before, I often admire people whose opinions differ from mine, on the basis that they have first hand experience of what they are so supportive of/opposed to.
What I think you will find, is that nobody on the pro-racing stand on this thread has made wild ridiculous accusations, we have supported all our arguments with fact, O2Y on the other hand appears to have had a quick Google and is now a self professed expert. And we all know that saying about 'he who shouts loudest'.......................


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## chloe12345 (19 April 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			And what would be the point in her going to a race meeting - that would be a kin to telling a vegetarian to eat a hamburger and visit a slaughterhouse before they can comment on why they are vegetarian?!  

.
		
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Totally Agree !


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## Baggybreeches (19 April 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			And what would be the point in her going to a race meeting - that would be a kin to telling a vegetarian to eat a hamburger and visit a slaughterhouse before they can comment on why they are vegetarian?!
		
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I do see your point, however it is not the same as asking a veggie to eat a hamburger is it? I think the point was that O2Y is making her/his comments based on 2nd hand information. AFAIK most anti-whatever groups will often attend the source of their opposition as they deem it important that they are well informed and this helps them offer a credible argument.


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## Moomin1 (19 April 2012)

Baggybreeches said:



			I do see your point, however it is not the same as asking a veggie to eat a hamburger is it? I think the point was that O2Y is making her/his comments based on 2nd hand information. AFAIK most anti-whatever groups will often attend the source of their opposition as they deem it important that they are well informed and this helps them offer a credible argument.
		
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  I haven't read the thread in any detail at all because my eyes are gooed up with Golden Eye Ointment!  I agree that people should be more well informed if they are going to make comments in relation to 'fact'.  I do think that asking OTY to attend a raceyard and meeting is a bit pointless though.  I don't see how that would have any benefit at all.  I would have thought reading up on correct statistics from a reliable source would be more appropriate.


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## Baggybreeches (19 April 2012)

BTW I did mean to sympathise with the gooey eyedness 
I think the intention is provide a deeper understanding of the 'behind the scenes' things that go on in yards, I can understand it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, but it would provide fresh subjects for discussion for O2Y which could then be used to argue their point more effectively.


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## Moomin1 (19 April 2012)

Baggybreeches said:



			BTW I did mean to sympathise with the gooey eyedness 

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Haha!! Thankyou.  I am hacked off to say the least the last two weeks!!  I had to take all last week off due to swollen glands and rotten cold.  Went back to work on Tues this week, then had to go back off again yesterday after half a shift because of swollen glands, temperature and conjunctivitis!!  Grr!!


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## Moomin1 (19 April 2012)

Baggybreeches said:



			BTW I did mean to sympathise with the gooey eyedness 
I think the intention is provide a deeper understanding of the 'behind the scenes' things that go on in yards, I can understand it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, but it would provide fresh subjects for discussion for O2Y which could then be used to argue their point more effectively.
		
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Mmm yes I do agree with that side of it on reflection.  I am not a fan of racing I have to admit - particularly over jumps, but I remain pretty open minded with it, and my boyfriend is a big fan of it.  My ex boyfriend's parents also bred racehorses and I do know that whilst it was a business for them first and foremost, they did get upset by any injuries or fatalities and not from a financial point of view either - they were genuinely upset for the horse.


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## Over2You (24 April 2012)

I am *STILL* waiting on answers!! *FORTY FIVE* horses have now died since the beginning of this year!! Justify those deaths!!


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## Alec Swan (24 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			I am *STILL* waiting on answers!! *FORTY FIVE* horses have now died since the beginning of this year!! Justify those deaths!!
		
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Those deaths are as easily justified as are the deaths of well in excess of the 45 horses which have died whilst being ridden in other disciplines and even on a quiet Sunday morning hack,  and all since the start of this year.

People ride horses.  Horses *and* their riders die.  It happens.  Get over yourself.

Alec.


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## Amymay (24 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			I am *STILL* waiting on answers!! *FORTY FIVE* horses have now died since the beginning of this year!! Justify those deaths!!
		
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So am I to the questions I have asked you.


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## Amymay (24 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			I am *STILL* waiting on answers!! *FORTY FIVE* horses have now died since the beginning of this year!! Justify those deaths!!
		
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You may also be interested to know that on UK roads 124 horses died between 2000 and 2003.  205 were injured and 31 riders died.

So on that evidence alone we should probably stop using horses all together.  For leisure, sport or industry.

Did you see the article in the Mirror the other day about pig abuse?

Really O2Y - find a cause that has some worth.......


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## Baggybreeches (24 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			I am *STILL* waiting on answers!! *FORTY FIVE* horses have now died since the beginning of this year!! Justify those deaths!!
		
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I don't know I don't have the answers, perhaps your friends at Animal Aid would like to provide their opinion on their 'sponsored' site Racehorse deathwatch, such a catchy title don't you think? 
Until you acknowledge that you actually have no intention of being educated a little more then there is little point in trying to have a debate with you.
Debating is a skill with which one seeks to put across their opinion and make the opposing view agree as the ultimate conclusion.
Your version of debate = be as rude and inflammatory as possible will proving yourself to be a truly obnoxious turd of a human being (I feel sorry for your nearest and dearest, it must be such fun living around you).


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## Sussexbythesea (24 April 2012)

amymay said:



			You may also be interested to know that on UK roads 124 horses died between 2000 and 2003.  205 were injured and 31 riders died.

So on that evidence alone we should probably stop using horses all together.  For leisure, sport or industry.

Did you see the article in the Mirror the other day about pig abuse?

Really O2Y - find a cause that has some worth.......
		
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I've kept out of this until now and I'm not anti-racing per se  but nevertheless cannot condone a race that you can guarantee a number of horses will have at the very least severe falls and are trampled on by the rest of the field or at worst die. Personally I can't see any pleasure in watching it.

As to horses ding on the road - Unless you can say how many non-racing horses there are in the UK and how much of that time they spend being ridden on the road to compare proportionally to how many horses are in racing and how much time they spend being on a racecourse in a competitive race then you have not addressed the comparative risk of death on a road compared to death on a racecourse. Therefore these points are....well pointless.

A racehorse may only spend say 1  to 2 hours on a racecourse actually racing in a year whereas I ride my horse not racing 1 to 2 hours a day 6 days a week say at least 450hrs a year. So the likelihood of my horse dying while I'm riding him should be greater than that of a racehorse dying in a race if the risks were otherwise equal. Clearly this is not the case.  

As to all the arguments about horses having accidents in fields and stables - well most horses spend most of their lives in one or the other - I mean where else would they likely die? On the moon?


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## Amymay (24 April 2012)

As to horses ding on the road - Unless you can say how many non-racing horses there are in the UK and how much of that time they spend being ridden on the road to compare proportionally to how many horses are in racing and how much time they spend being on a racecourse in a competitive race then you have not addressed the comparative risk of death on a road compared to death on a racecourse. Therefore these points are....well pointless.
		
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I'm not sure the points are pointless - I thought it was quite an interesting parallel to racing.   Our 'hobby' also seems to put horse and rider in mortal danger - and just shows that there are no guarantees in life - whether you choose to enter your horse in a race or ride it down the road........


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## Over2You (24 April 2012)

Baggybreeches said:



			I don't know I don't have the answers, perhaps your friends at Animal Aid would like to provide their opinion on their 'sponsored' site Racehorse deathwatch, such a catchy title don't you think? 
Until you acknowledge that you actually have no intention of being educated a little more then there is little point in trying to have a debate with you.
Debating is a skill with which one seeks to put across their opinion and make the opposing view agree as the ultimate conclusion.
Your version of debate = be as rude and inflammatory as possible will proving yourself to be a truly obnoxious turd of a human being (I feel sorry for your nearest and dearest, it must be such fun living around you).
		
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From the London Marathon vs. The Grand National thread in the soapbox forum:



Baggybreeches said:



			TBH I saw this on the news last night and however pro-racing I am I couldn't bring myself to draw a comparison, an animal life is not comparable to a human life.
I think any argument based on this is in pretty poor taste and I believe if 'we' stoop to that kind of depth to support our sport we just give the antis a bigger stick to beat NH racing with.
God bless the lady who died 

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This pretty much sums up how you can justify all those equine fatalities. It doesn't matter since they were only animals. Heres a piece of news for you - humans *ARE* animals!! We are no more important than other animals. Thinking otherwise is what has gotten this planet into such a horrible mess.  We humans are systematically destroying the world in which we live. If were not obliterating millions of acres of land by building houses at a relentless pace (in order to accommodate our unsustainable population), we are wiping out thousands of species with our pollution, and destruction of  habitats. Doing those things are okay, though, as we are the oh-so-superior life forms. We think nothing of using other animals in order to entertain us and put money in our pockets. Pushing them to their limits and routinely killing them in the process. All the while brushing their deaths off by saying/thinking - at least they weren't humans dying.  When it comes to racing, it is no better than the likes of bull fighting, or the rodeo. Animals die at an exponential rate, and nothing is done about it. Just as long as the animals are making money. Those who oppose such blood sports are shrugged off as  being uneducated and clueless with regards to the bigger picture. Asking them to defend their love of such sports is akin to asking the impossible question. They simply cannot answer truthfully without coming over as being cold and unfeeling. They would sooner answer with more questions, trying to worm their way out of it by making (often ridiculous) comparisons to other situations in which animals also die. 

It is hoped that anybody  reading this thread (who is on the fence about racing) will come to realize that it is a repugnant sport. Those involved in the industry, or who support it, really couldn't care less about all the fatalities (as has been proven here). 

It should also be noted that I have not resorted to using vulgar insults. Surely calling another member a turd is grounds for being given at least a warning. If not suspension from the forums. This kind of thing would *NOT* be tolerated on the IMDb. Horse and Hound: take note!!


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## Baggybreeches (24 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			From the London Marathon vs. The Grand National thread in the soapbox forum:



This pretty much sums up how you can justify all those equine fatalities. It doesn't matter since they were only animals. Heres a piece of news for you - humans *ARE* animals!! We are no more important than other animals. Thinking otherwise is what has gotten this planet into such a horrible mess.  We humans are systematically destroying the world in which we live. If were not obliterating millions of acres of land by building houses at a relentless pace (in order to accommodate our unsustainable population), we are wiping out thousands of species with our pollution, and destruction of  habitats. Doing those things are okay, though, as we are the oh-so-superior life forms. We think nothing of using other animals in order to entertain us and put money in our pockets. Pushing them to their limits and routinely killing them in the process. All the while brushing their deaths off by saying/thinking - at least they weren't humans dying.  When it comes to racing, it is no better than the likes of bull fighting, or the rodeo. Animals die at an exponential rate, and nothing is done about it. Just as long as the animals are making money. Those who oppose such blood sports are shrugged off as  being uneducated and clueless with regards to the bigger picture. Asking them to defend their love of such sports is akin to asking the impossible question. They simply cannot answer truthfully without coming over as being cold and unfeeling. They would sooner answer with more questions, trying to worm their way out of it by making (often ridiculous) comparisons to other situations in which animals also die. 

It is hoped that anybody  reading this thread (who is on the fence about racing) will come to realize that it is a repugnant sport. Those involved in the industry, or who support it, really couldn't care less about all the fatalities (as has been proven here). 

It should also be noted that I have not resorted to using vulgar insults. Surely calling another member a turd is grounds for being given at least a warning. If not suspension from the forums. This kind of thing would *NOT* be tolerated on the IMDb. Horse and Hound: take note!!
		
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This is why nobody takes you seriously, a human life is more important than an animal life, however some humans do not have their basic life needs met (think of Baby P) are you saying that a racehorse who lives like a king has more right to life than a poor abused child?
You are truly deluded and quite frankly it's a wonder you are safe to live independently if that is your 'balanced' view of life.
BTW in case you didn't know I lost one of my pet pointers last year and it still hurts like hell, but I justify that by knowing that he enjoyed what he was doing and the last thing he heard was me telling him he was a superstar. How is that not preferable to horses being driven to the continent for slaughter or being flung out on inadequate pasture, OR WORSE being rescued by one of the so called SANCTUARIES which often are often the most hideous places one could imagine.
I apologise for my rudeness earlier.


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## Maesfen (24 April 2012)

Well said BB.


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## Kadastorm (24 April 2012)

Baggybreeches said:



			This is why nobody takes you seriously, a human life is more important than an animal life, however some humans do not have their basic life needs met (think of Baby P) are you saying that a racehorse who lives like a king has more right to life than a poor abused child?
You are truly deluded and quite frankly it's a wonder you are safe to live independently if that is your 'balanced' view of life.
BTW in case you didn't know I lost one of my pet pointers last year and it still hurts like hell, but I justify that by knowing that he enjoyed what he was doing and the last thing he heard was me telling him he was a superstar. How is that not preferable to horses being driven to the continent for slaughter or being flung out on inadequate pasture, OR WORSE being rescued by one of the so called SANCTUARIES which often are often the most hideous places one could imagine.
I apologise for my rudeness earlier.
		
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totally agree, very well said.


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## amage (24 April 2012)

sussexbythesea said:



			I've kept out of this until now and I'm not anti-racing per se  but nevertheless cannot condone a race that you can guarantee a number of horses will have at the very least severe falls and are trampled on by the rest of the field or at worst die. Personally I can't see any pleasure in watching it.
		
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Actually there is no guarantee that a number of horses will fall, be trampled on or die. That is a chance. There is a vast vast vast difference between a chance and a guarantee.


And very well said BB.


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## Fiona clark (24 April 2012)

I am deeply saddened by any death of any horse  but whether people like racing or not, I would like to ask what would happen to the lovely racehorses if it all halted tomorrow?   Most race horses are very well looked after and have the best treatments especially when at this level!  I would be more worried about the everyday abuse and neglect that goes on with your average equine on a daily basis, intentional or not ..... ignorance kills more horses daily than this race!  x


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## DragonSlayer (24 April 2012)

EKW said:



			I've offered a tour of our yard and a trip to the races to O2Y as they clearly can't be far from us but I never get a response. Hey Ho! Some people like to live in their own little bubble world!
		
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I'd actually love to come oneday, as racing is an area of the horse world I have had very little to do with....I have no clue to the workings of a raceyard, and would love to talk with a trainer about training, how do they know what to do, when to do it, etc etc etc...

Mind you, you might have started something now, everyone will wanna come visit!

My experience of racing has included a trip to both Market Rasen once, and Doncaster....

OH, and watching the GN and 'Champions' a million times, along with Dick Francis books.


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