# Endurance , whats going on?



## FairyLights (20 September 2013)

drugs seized re h&h report,and the EGB forum is awash with comment about international rides.The admin of the facebook site is saying they will delete any derogatory comments. whatever happened to free speach?


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## PorkChop (20 September 2013)

Hmmm, I don't read it as any "funny business" as such, just in possession of some prescribed drugs?


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## Caledonia (21 September 2013)

Illegally imported drugs ..........


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## FairyLights (21 September 2013)

deleted


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## palo1 (21 September 2013)

There has been considerable concern in international Endurance - expressed by a number of countries about the injuries incurred and apparent abuse of endurance horses at the top level and associated with particular countries.  This concern has been widely voiced.  Endurance horses in some races have suffered catastrophic fractures and abuses of the rules have been witnessed but ignored - probably due to the status of some of the top riders and trainers who have supported Endurance on a very significant scale.  Many European riders do not like the direction Endurance is travelling in - with an increasing emphasis on very fast, flat tracks which encourage very fast riding.  This trend appears to have had a very negative cost to the horses - the speed results in many and serious injuries and consequences.  A number of International Endurance horses have been found to be in contravention of doping regs and there are also rumours of serious incidents of cheating and horse abuse.  It is certainly not pretty.  EGB - the principle body for Endurance in GB has been somewhat divided in its members on account of the very serious concerns about International Endurance; some members wish to break ties with the international scene, whilst others feel the situation is resolvable.  The team management of our Endurance riders has been criticised and the results of the GB team of late have not been encouraging - it seems that GB cannot compete, for whatever reason or reasons with the 'leading nations'.  Some may argue that that is because of different approaches to acceptable horse management and the use of substances which are either not legal or simply not known about.  There are certainly some very dark practices in Endurance at the moment.  The drugs seizure is simply a symptom of the mess that Endurance is in.  The vast majority of GB riders - whether ambitious to compete at International level or not are horrified that the sport has become so tarnished.  However, there is no consensus in EGB as to the way forward for the sport.  On one level it would seem that Endurance has had a much needed injection of glamour and prestige by the financing and involvement of particular nations, on the other level, for most European riders the cost in terms of horse welfare and sportsmanship has been too high.  Many people involved in Endurance are sickened by what they hear of what goes on, in certain places in order to achieve success.   It looks as if the sport has hit rock bottom so the only way is up.  However, it will be well nigh impossible for Endurance as we know it to survive if the truth is to come out; there are many vested interests and much to lose.  We do have, however, many many talented horse and rider combinations at International level though it is crucial to ask why these combinations do not WANT to be involved in the current teams with the current management.


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## FairyLights (21 September 2013)

EXCELLENT POST Palo1. You have posted what I was trying to say, but so much more eloquently. Thank you.


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## palo1 (21 September 2013)

Thank you! I find it all very disheartening to be honest. Endurance used to be a small scale amateur sport that valued horse welfare and integrity above all else. It was all about the partnerships developed over miles of tough and often lonely going and it was not a glamorous or high profile sport in this country. It certainly needed a bit of a facelift to encourage new blood and the participation of wealthy and passionate nations has indeed added a bit of glamour and raised the profile of the sport here. However, that has also been a game-changer and it would seem certainly not for the good.  Endurance should be an equestrian sport to be so proud of in this country but I'm not sure it is at the moment. Other European nations have been much more determined to make changes for the better, it would seem, than the current egb management is. That is a great shame I think.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (21 September 2013)

Um (wading in with both feet here, so therefore with a degree of trepidation......) - would it be correct to assume that the "financing and involvement of particular nations" might be referring to certain nations situated within the Middle Eastern region, who have an absolutely obscene amount of money they don't know what to do with? 

Shades of the recent horseracing scandal mebbe???? i.e. if you try it in one place and get caught with your pants down; then merely try another "equestrian" sport???

Please note, am not mentioning any particular countries, so all just supposition.


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## FairyLights (22 September 2013)

I used to do endurance, many years ago now, it was a lovely sport. I have always disliked the term "endurance" and prefer "long-distance riding". "Endurance" seems to imply that there must be some suffering involved, to my mind. Bring back the days of the old EHPS when things were much much better than they are now. 
Once egos and money become involved decency goes out of the window- and that applies to other sports too.


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## Wundahorse (22 September 2013)

Such a shame the sport is in such disrepute,and all linked to the antics of certain wealthy countries who seem to have too much influence with the FEI.The latter appear to have sold their soles for money,rather than ethics and are probably worried about tackling the Saudis who throw so much money at equestrian sport.


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## lachlanandmarcus (22 September 2013)

At the lower levels I think endurance is as clean, as welcoming to all and as positive a horse activity as its possible to be. 

At the upper levels, the same cannot be said. 

Having said that even at the low levels I am surprised these days by riders complaining that the going on a ride was 'too stony' or 'too hilly' .....:-(((( ummmm yup, the clue is in the sports title


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## palo1 (22 September 2013)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			At the lower levels I think endurance is as clean, as welcoming to all and as positive a horse activity as its possible to be. 

At the upper levels, the same cannot be said. 

Having said that even at the low levels I am surprised these days by riders complaining that the going on a ride was 'too stony' or 'too hilly' .....:-(((( ummmm yup, the clue is in the sports title 

Click to expand...

Yes - though I think that is because riders are increasingly trying to achieve faster speeds so that they can be competitive; the hilly, stony, very varied rides are more challenging in terms of speed though they do represent the more traditional version of endurance where to complete a ride meant something in itself. It's such a shame that egb hasn't yet found a way to grade rides in such a way that Britain's natural terrain can provide a competitive playing field.  A lot of endurance riders seem sad that the sport is losing the challenge of terrain and decision making in favour of speed and substance knowledge.


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## EstherYoung (23 September 2013)

Re Hilly rides. I made a suggestion for this season to trial some achievement awards for people and horses who completed the tougher rides at whatever level. It has been successfully trialled in two local groups and I am just starting to get the ride cards sent back to me so that I can get the awards sorted out  Hopefully it will get taken on nationally as we do need something to encourage people to head for the hills 

Re The other stuff. EGB is a comparatively very small organisation, run by volunteers and I don't know what the answer is, as the problem is much much much bigger than EGB and has been going on for years. It breaks my heart that such a friendly, supportive sport has such a corrupt element. Personally I think that the corrupt side of things needs to completely implode before we can move on, and I would suspect that there are worse revelations to come. On the plus side, we do have some really good, inspirational top level riders and horses who have got where they have got without taking shortcuts or cheating, and our young riders are doing particularly well, so the future is not all bleak. Hopefully...


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## pip6 (23 September 2013)

Okay, let's look at the recent european championships, I'll break the scilence. Until now, GB has held its head up as a clean national organisation, there are regular dope tests at rides, no failures, we are clean. However, it seems the committe has been trying to emulate certain nations in order to raise GB up the international rankings. In reality we are still a nation of amateurs (very professional riders, but they don't earn a living at riding). Generally most competitors only own 1-3 horses, we don't have huge stables run by professional trainers staffed by grooms to do all the work. We own, produce & love our animals. We muck out every day, tend to them & know them intimately. There are nations who like to win, & although the staff may not be told to cheat, there is huge pressure on them to produce a horse able to win over fast flat tracks (why certain nations will never enter GB rides - track too testing, especially rides like GHS, Red Dragon). There is no out of competition drug testing, so horses can be trained on steroids, as long as they are clear by the competition. These horses would have been able to cope with more extreme training, so a truly clean horse will never be able to compete with them. Nations from a certain area of the globe win everything (or people that work for said nations excel as well), they also pour a huge amount of money into the international scene & FEI. That snactions aren't taken to clean the sport up, draw your own conclusions. Horses subjected to exterme training regiemes, to get them fit enough to cope with the rediculous speeds are the ones prone to fractures. Owners response is pull another horse out the stable. Again, it only affects certain nations, I would not be able to name a GB horse who has suffered a catastrophic stress fracture. Draw your own conclusions.

At Most, GB had to hold its head in shame, due to a rider based in a UAE yard, riding a UAE horse. For some reason (tip off paid by someone to shame GB, a nation daring to question certain nations integrity maybe? Gut-feeling of officials?), this rider was subjected to 2 weight checks during the race (very unusual). At the second one, where her crew were not allowed contact with her whilst she untacked at the vet gate, she weighed in 7kg under weight, despite starting 2 kg over weight. GB has been issued a yellow card internationally for cheating. Was this done on purpose to cheat? Was there bribery to take the rap to shame GB? Who knows, but there are many questions that wont get answered because they involve nation from a certain area. The horse was not going to come anywhere, it was in 10th place, showing signs of fatigue (witnessed by EGB member), & its presentation times to vet had gone from fast to 8 mins. Before the race many EGB members questioned the selection of a UAE horse for the GB team (due to fears it may fail a drug test coming from a certain area of the globe - were we selling our soul to try & get a medal?). Unblievably, we had other fantastic combination to go, who was denied the chance because she wanted to fly her horse in & not take the transport organised by EGB - unbelievable.

Then there is the winning rider. At the start of the last circuit he was 1 min ahead, by the end of this short circuit he was so far ahead at his speed it equated to 5.7km! Even though his average speeds were very close to the second place horse, he had done the final circuit so much quicker....point 1, there were no stewards on the final loop of the course to check the rider had done the correct route (odd, usually stewards on every loop, smacks of money coming in here again). Second, there was a place were a minor deviation of route would result in doing 5.7km less in total. Draw your own conclusions, I am implying nothing.

Nothing smells more rotten than money. Support EGB, we are great people who love our animals, we are not part of this disgusting culture. Nothing will be investigated or penalised, because they are so afraid of funding withdrawl, especially from british racing. We should stop trying to compete with cheats & focus on what we are, clean, honest who love our horses. Medals mean nothing at the moment, the horses are being scarificed for a bit of tin on a ribbon.


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## pip6 (23 September 2013)

Posted on EGB forum where this is very much under discussion!

http://www.endurance-belgium.com/


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## FairyLights (23 September 2013)

the Most thing stinks. I am so glad that I dont do endurance any more,  I would be throughly ASHAMED to be connected to an organisation proved to have been cheating re the incident at Most, the whole EBG committee should do the honourable thing and RESIGN IN SHAME.
Bring back the old days when people aspired to complete the Golden Horseshoe and the Red Dragon. Note I said complete the ride, the rider and their horse in partnership,not trying to beat someone else.


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## pip6 (23 September 2013)

No evidence anyone in EGB connected to the weight problem, said rider & her crew would not allow any EGB officials (including the team vet when they wanted to see if horse was fit/sound to continue) near the horse. The questionable ethics & morals involves someone based broad working for middle eastern endurance stable, a foreign crew & horse from the big middle eastern endurance stable.

Funny thing is when this horse was announced as part of GB team (also declared as UAE team horse), members wanted rigorous checks in training & before competition to see if it was drug free, as they didn't trust the cleanliness of any horse in an endurance stable run by countries from a certain part of the globe. Members of EGB didn't want the stain of cheating landing on them if the horse failed a drug test in competition. We are in the sport & we don't trust certain nations. It isn't dissimillar to Lance Armstrong who used his name & bullying tactics to scilence others for years. In the end the truth will out, money or not.


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## FairyLights (23 September 2013)

The horse and rider were part of the British team. EGB therefore responsable. The horse should never have been part of GB team, but once it and its rider were it came under our durestriction. Are the EGB committee members so spineless that they just let this person dictate terms to them? Sounds so.


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## pip6 (23 September 2013)

Apparently. Given how heavy handed the committes & team people are about enforcing their opinions & way of doing things on people even to the detriment of the horses (caused one young 3* horse to miss much of last season through their insistance of shoeing him a particular way, against the advice of persons farrier who had got him to 3* level). Their attitude to us was do it our way or your out, no debate. I find it unbelievable that they were denied access & accepted it. Also seems to be a lot of double standards around depending on who you are (something we experienced at a development squad weekend & selection process).


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## Goldenstar (23 September 2013)

I don't do endurance so comment as an outsider but there never has been a sport that's not ruined by money , endurance is just the latest  on the a long list.


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## pip6 (23 September 2013)

Nationally we are good. There is no indication of drug abuse in the UK. The problem is when you get to the international stage, & the failure of the FEI to grow a pair of balls, or that they are in the grip of some wealthy nations who are threatening to chop them off........

If we had not used a UAE based horse/rider combination we would not have a yellow card for cheating........


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## fatpiggy (23 September 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			I don't do endurance so comment as an outsider but there never has been a sport that's not ruined by money , endurance is just the latest  on the a long list.
		
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more.  Where money is part of the winnings, people will do just about anything to get their hands on it.  Look at football - full of diving, cheating, downright lying, intimidation of match officials.  Its disgusting.  Money just ruins everything.


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## tiga71 (23 September 2013)

As someone who has just finished their first season as a RC endurance rider, this is very sad to hear. I don't know the ins and outs of it, but just with what i have seen about the money and riders from the Middle East, it seems like those nations will do anything to win. Very sad for the horses but not much different from horse racing or polo at the top levels I guess.

I hope it doesn't put off people from joining and enjoying endurance at the lower levels. We have really had a great time this year and met lots of 'proper' endurance riders who have been very supportive and helpful to me and my cob.  On a personal level I won't ever have to worry about the international events as I don't think they have hairy cobs at those events


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## LucyPriory (23 September 2013)

I used to compete Endurance.  It lost it's way the minute that prizes with any financial value were introduced.  The heart of the sport as and still should be the satisfaction in producing a horse so well, without artifical aid, that it can complete a ride and finish in excellent condition.

Shame on the human race for putting horses' welfare below financial gain.  Shame on the EGB committee for allowing this to happen.


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## EstherYoung (23 September 2013)

Re The national committee. It is one hell of a job, it takes over your life, and they are all volunteers. Some people may be better suited than others but I don't envy any of them one iota. But much as everyone has an opinion on how well the committee handle things, very few people put themselves forwards to do it - last year there were enough spaces on committee for all but one of the nominees. Some years there hasn't even needed to be a vote as the number of nominations is so low. And when there is a vote, turnout is low. What that means is that if there is someone who is maybe not well suited to serve on the national committee, they will pretty much be a shoe in as there will be no alternative.

So the motto of the story is, if you think you can do better, put yourself forwards for committee. You've got till the 27th to get your names in. Alternatively, put forwards a proposal for a rules change if you have any ideas about how the society could change - again, a deadline of the 27th applies. And then, when the voting papers come out, for heavens sake VOTE!


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## LucyPriory (23 September 2013)

EstherYoung - quite agree - serving on a committee can be onerous.  But that is a separate issue to letting the sport deteriorate.  It doesn't matter whether the committee is large or small, all it takes is accord and it would appear that there must have been agreement that horse welfare takes second place?  Or why the rule changes and the introduction of rewards beyond a rosette and satisfaction in a job well done for winning?


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## EstherYoung (24 September 2013)

There was a rule change to allow cash prizes a good few years back, and I know I was concerned about it at the time, but in reality you're not going to get rich doing an EGB ride, Lucy  There have always been prizes in kind from sponsors (indeed I have sponsored prizes myself), but although the rules may permit it, there are no big cash prizes particularly below FEI level. The only rides which handed out anything more than basically diesel money in this country are the arab marathon (not an EGB ride) and the Eustons (also not EGB rides - they are/were run by Janah for the FEI).  

Nb I won some cash when H and me won the EHPS Lions Tail in 2000, so prizes of money are not new.

Ps I'll be honest with you - a good few years back I went to crew with the Young Riders to Wicklow. The sheer amount of rule breaking and compromises of horse welfare from 'certain parties' we saw was staggering, and I very nearly walked away from endurance then and there. We reported it all, only to be ignored. But I realised I was not alone in my concerns, and that the main bulk of the sport in this country is still the friendly, laid back, welfare friendly sport that it always has been. I really don't know what the answer is, but in some way I am pleased at these latest developments as it means that finally a lot of the things that have been brushed under the carpet for many many years may be uncovered and the chickens may come home to roost. I just hope that my sport, the sport that rewards the long term relationship between horse and rider, the sport that has allowed me to achieve more with my horses than I ever thought possible, the sport that I dream about, isn't too damaged in the process.


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## pip6 (24 September 2013)

A big problem with being on the committee is that it is based in Stoneleigh. I live on the Devon Cornwall border, work more than full time & keep the horses. There is no way on this planet I would have the time or money to ever consider trying to get a place on any board. In my posts I have tried to put across support for EGB, I am not knocking our organisation. I am totally knocking the FEI organisation for selling themselves & their soul for money. I do believe we run a clean sport in this country, I also believe there are major flaws in team selections, but that is an aside in this. Having been through the development squad process, it left me totally disallusioned with international management & selection. But, that isn't what this is about. This is about using a rider / horse / crew based in a nation with questionable ethics (& let's be honest there were massive questions raised regarding this selection on the EGB forum), & it's ironic that we have been accused internationally, after a blemish free record, of cheating because of said combination. We know that certain nations don't do as much as they could to ensure their horses are drug free all year round, just because of money everyone (including FEI) is too scared to come out & say it. The first question raised on the EGB forum about using this foreign horse was how can we be certain it hasn't been trained on drugs. Says everything really. We want to be & are clean at home. We are a great sport, very friendly, love our animals. Some countries have lost this in pursuit of bits of tin. That we don't award major prizes in this country helps keep it clean, we do it for the fun of it.

The comment has been made before in order to win trophies (ie accumulate most points) avoid hilly courses, go for less testing ones. It would be good if there was some sort of bonus point system to reward tackling tougher courses (maybe they could be graded?). Not all people do this though. I know a person trying to win the novice trophy this year. She didn't set out with this aim, but her results have put her in the running so for the last couple of months she has been trying to get there. Her last 2 rides of the season will be doing 2 days at Red Dragon (for those who don't know it's in the Welsh Mountains), very definately not doing it the easy way with fast flat rides! We run some brilliant moor rides in the south west, with good road links. AAnything that encourages people to come test themselves aginast the moors must be a positive step. Forget the rosette, come tackle a tough course. Remember the old saying, to finish is to win. We need to be remembering that at this point.


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## Zoejl (24 September 2013)

pip6 GB did not have a blemish free record before this championship. In the past a middle eastern owned and trained  horse had been ridden by a GB  rider on a team and returned a positive dope test.


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## FairyLights (24 September 2013)

When is the EGB committee going to issue a statement about doping and abuse? When is EGB going to publicly distance itself from such practices by withdrawing from FEI and international competitions ?


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## pip6 (24 September 2013)

That must be getting on for nearly 10 years ago. Rider took responsibility as they have to, but was riding a horse she had no involvement in the training of, again from big stable based in certain part of globe. Whilst a GB person took the hit in terms of sanction, in real life they were not implicated in the wrong doing nor vilified for it. 

This is different, it's a rider that works in one of these stables, using one of their horses, trained under their regieme (combination have competed together recently), crewed by their crew, with GB staff denied access on the day. Hopefully what has happened will come out with investigation. Which person who was responsible for the cheating needs to be found. Did they do it to try & get the horse to win, were they paid to cheat, is it just standard practice in some circles, who knows but they are very serious questions. Was it done to improve the result or to smear team GB who have stood against drug abuse? 

That we were foolish enough to use a horse from a certain part of the globe to represent us nationally in order to try & medal is beyond doubt. I'm not saying we shouldn't select riders based abroad (couple of GB internationals based in US), but not use those from certain places unless they can show they are clean all year & allow full access to GB staff at the event. There was at least one other very talented, experienced combination ready to go denied a place as they wanted to fly their horse out. We should not copy others, use their methods or their horses. We are who we are, we should send our best produced cleanly in our own system. So we are a nation of small owners, with less horses to pick from. Let's produce quality over quantity, with a clear, supportive framework for potential & regular team members. This needs to be a defining moment to overhaul the international system here so positive comes from it. We have some great combinations.

Maybe there needs to be a split, between endurance RACING, fast over flat tracks, & ENDURANCE races over tough hilly terrain where good riding at necessary lower speeds because of the toughness of the course.


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## Pamfyson (24 September 2013)

Brilliant post!!!!  Needs to be read by the powers that be.  Well done Pip6!!


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## magicmoose (25 September 2013)

FEI PRESS RELEASE
Lausanne (SUI), 25 September 2013


Statement from FEI President HRH Princess Haya on FEI Governance

"In my first meeting in Lausanne with the FEI Bureau after my election in 2006, I proposed limiting FEI Presidents to two four-year terms. I suggested that reform, which was later adopted as an FEI Statute, because it is essential to ensure fresh thinking and avoid a sense of entitlement within the leadership of an International Sport Federation.

Whilst I very much appreciate and am honoured by efforts of the FEI Regional Group Chairpersons and the National Federations to amend the FEI Statutes to permit me, or any FEI President to seek a third term, my views on the benefits of a two-term limit have not changed since the day I was elected. I love being FEI President. I am passionate about the work and our sport. I love the people I work with at the National Federations and at headquarters.

However, I cannot in good conscience put aside my beliefs and the commitment I made seven years ago now that the term limit I supported applies to me. I am deeply grateful to all the National Federations that favour changing the Statutes to allow me a third term. I am confident they will understand why I feel I must keep my word when my current term ends next year.

I was first elected to this job seven years ago because our National Federations wanted transparency, good governance and change and I promised a transformational presidency. Together, through thick and thin, we have achieved more than 80% of all pledges laid down in my manifesto and programme in an open, democratic and transparent manner. I am so very proud of the people who worked together with me to achieve this.

My focus in my final year in office is on delivering the remaining pledges. I will complete this shared mission with respect, determination and energy &#8212; and with the support of the entire community and above all the help from 132 National Federations.

I intend to leave the FEI in November 2014 knowing that our International Federation is fit for the future. I will work as hard as ever towards that goal until my final day in office. And then I will step aside, confident that I have done the right thing."


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## LucyPriory (26 September 2013)

EstherYoung, sadly I am so ancient I competed in Endurance when there were no prizes, not even in kind.  It was IMO a much better sport in those days, even though I also witnessed cheating, it was minor and didn't compromise horse welfare.


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## NZJenny (27 September 2013)

It has very much been a case of the golden rule: they who have the gold, rule.

The conerns over the direction of the sport are world wide - exactly the same comments are prevelent on NZ and Australian web sites as well.  

As a rider, I was always proud of our record and the sports core belief that we looked after our horses.  And we do - as has been observed for the most part we are owner/riders/grooms/breeders and trainers.  Not so much in other parts of the world.


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## pip6 (27 September 2013)

Glad EGB not alone, seems to be huge split between professional competitors, & very professional amateur competitors. Very proud to be an amateur only owning 2 horses for whom I do everything. Maybe there should be a major championship over serious terrain, would love to see 'those' countries try & thrash their horses over the moors! Definatley wouldn't be going over 20kph there. They used to enter Cirencester, in EGB terms a flat fast track, however that stopped after a couple of years (& they weren't missed, used to pay to erect huge tents at end of trot up, very noisey generators, ice trucks, helicopters flying in when vettings going on). Never saw them attempt a serious track. They soon were only doing their own (very flat easy course) at Euston.


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## EstherYoung (27 September 2013)

pip6 said:



			Glad EGB not alone
		
Click to expand...

Oh EGB is absolutely not alone. We had some lovely Australian visitors at Lions Tail last weekend and talking to them was like listening to a carbon copy of our issues....

I was trying to find the link the other day about the horses that were found abandoned in the desert a few years back which were identified as Australian endurance horses who had been purchased for $$$$$$$$. I seem to remember it was at an abandonded riding school. Only the reports on t'interweb seem to have disappeared. Maybe someone still has a working link?

Wicklow wasn't an easy ride, but at Wicklow the year we came back disgusted certain parties were building temporary roads over dodgy going prior to the event (whether the farmers whose land it was had any idea I don't know), and were taking shortcuts round the big hill even though everyone else had to go over the top of it. Interesting interpretations of 'outside assistance' too. But ILDRA firmly took Wicklow back under their own wing after that, and I don't think they've run it as FEI since.


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## Magpies Nest (27 September 2013)

I have been following this thread and have reached the point where I feel I must have a say.  I totally agree with most of what has been said so far.  I have been involved with Endurance Riding in this country since 1978.  I have ridden, crewed, stewarded, vet written in this time.  I have travelled abroad and attended several 4* Championships.  It does seem that Endurance seems to be taking the knock at the moment.  I do feel the article in this weeks issue was a bit more Sun like than I feel comfortable with.  We did not present ourselves well at Most this year.  At the end of the day only 4 horses were selected and unfortunately one of those was withdrawn beforehand due to a suspected injury, that it turned out was a false alarm.  But all respect to that rider, the horse's welfare was paramount and that is after all one of the principles of the sport.  I feel very sorry for the other two riders who gave a good account of themselves in Most, they have become embroiled in this debacle through no fault of their own.  Let us also not forget the efforts of previous riders in these Championships in past years.  We were very unlucky in Florac 2 years ago not to get a team completion., around one of the World's toughest 160KM rides.  We had 2 finishers and were very unlucky to lose the third member of the team at the recheck at the last vetgate.  We have some talented combinations in this country and we must not forget that the majority of them work hard to earn the money to pay for this sport, this does however mean that we will always struggle to compete against professional trainers with yards full of horses.  It is equally not a level playing field at this point in time when we are competing against horses that may have been trained 'at an advantage'.  We need to take a big deep breath and go back to producing a TEAM of good riders and horses, forget the crazy speeds (unless we want to break all our potential horses before they get to their best) and aim to get back to team completions.  After all the 3rd placed Italian team had an average speed of between 17 and 18kph, well within our capabilities.  A bronze medal or even 4th place would not be so bad!  Let us be proud to be British again.


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## Magpies Nest (27 September 2013)

I totally agree, I can remember no prize money.  But I don't think the prize money affects how we compete here.  It is a welcome bonus for the day and may go some way to paying towards the cost of the day.  Eventing has had prize money for a long time but it makes no difference to how they treat their horses does it?  Our welfare of the horse is far greater and if someone turns up at a ride with a horse that is not fit to compete it can be eliminated at the initial vetting by the vet and so not compete.  I believe this is the only sport that this happens in at all levels?


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## Magpies Nest (27 September 2013)

I think this is the matter you were referring to Esther http://www.stockyard.net/vbulletin/news-items/12271-starving-horses-malaysia.html


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## pip6 (28 September 2013)

Eventing is funded from some countries money, and cheating is tougher ss on a short stewarded course deviations in route are noticed along with falls, run outs and fences down. The fei has stop accepting heavy funding.


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## skydy (30 September 2013)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...ammed-will-step-down-as-president-of-FEI.html


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## pip6 (12 October 2013)

So from latest response from Princess Haya declining to stand anothre term, reading between the lines she is saying she has used her connectins to bring spponsorship to evnts, & when she goes it is up to the next person to find sponsors as thoses from certain parts of the world may well suddenly decline to sponsor any further equestrian events. If that's the price it takes to clean things up, then surely that it was we have to put up with, for the sake of the horses. Hold on racing etc, looks like you'll be in for a bumpy ride.


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## DanceswithCows (13 October 2013)

A shame for the sports but I do think it would be better not to be held to ransom by a handful of people.

I take it the preference for a fast, flat race-like course is why you don't see these types winning the tevis cup?


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## Pigeon (13 October 2013)

It's all very awful etc but remember endurance racing arguably originates from the middle east, before tarring them all with the same brush.

I think this has all happened because it has become so commercialised - similar to other sports, look at cycling! Only way forward really is strict testing.


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## pip6 (14 October 2013)

Only commercialised at high levels, very few rides have prizes in this country. To be realistic, there will be some honest trainers / grooms from these regions, but the bonus of having a successful horse is such there is immense unspoken pressure to get the result by whatever means. Horses are dispensible, more can be bought. Any owner can claim they haven't given orders, but that doesn't stop others taking the initiative in order to get a bonus. Suffice to say the 'problems' which are well documented only affect a limited number of regions, such as stress fractures, unheard of in UK endurance.

No they would never do the Tevis. To be frank they wouldn't go beyond Cirencester, regarded as a fast flat track in UK, & they soon stopped doing that. They wouldn't consider doing GHS in UK, let alone the Tevis. Seems to be very clear distinction, there are those who want to race for 100 miles, & those who want to do endurance where positions are decided by how you pass the finish line after 100 miles. Totally recommend to everyone, try the pleasure ride at Golden Horseshoe (GHS), go look at the website. Fit happy healthy horses working with their riders.

'Type' in the racing sport seems to be moving more towards big anglos to get the speeds needed, where as in the endurance rides, smaller, clever, surefooted horses such as arabs still predominate.


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## Maesfen (14 October 2013)

Fascinating thread, thank you.


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## midogrey (14 October 2013)

I joined endurance gb this year and the stories re international and certain countries bear no relation to my experience of endurance this year. I found people who are completely dedicated to the welfare of their horsess and also some of the kindest and friendliest people I have met in 40 Years of riding.
It's a shame headlines caused by a few tarnish the reputation of many


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## Zoejl (15 October 2013)

pip6 said:



			Only commercialised at high levels, very few rides have prizes in this country. To be realistic, there will be some honest trainers / grooms from these regions, but the bonus of having a successful horse is such there is immense unspoken pressure to get the result by whatever means. Horses are dispensible, more can be bought. Any owner can claim they haven't given orders, but that doesn't stop others taking the initiative in order to get a bonus. Suffice to say the 'problems' which are well documented only affect a limited number of regions, such as stress fractures, unheard of in UK endurance.

No they would never do the Tevis. To be frank they wouldn't go beyond Cirencester, regarded as a fast flat track in UK, & they soon stopped doing that. They wouldn't consider doing GHS in UK, let alone the Tevis. Seems to be very clear distinction, there are those who want to race for 100 miles, & those who want to do endurance where positions are decided by how you pass the finish line after 100 miles. Totally recommend to everyone, try the pleasure ride at Golden Horseshoe (GHS), go look at the website. Fit happy healthy horses working with their riders.

'Type' in the racing sport seems to be moving more towards big anglos to get the speeds needed, where as in the endurance rides, smaller, clever, surefooted horses such as arabs still predominate.
		
Click to expand...

Hi They  used to do the tougher rides and have done Golden Horseshoe, when it was FEI, also Hexham, and Ludlow, not any more though.


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## DanceswithCows (16 October 2013)

so do you think we'll just end up with TBs doing a flat race of 100miles then?  :S  pretty hardcore.


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## pip6 (21 October 2013)

Nah, not tough enough, lack stamina & feet/bones not hard enough to take training. Need at least 50% arab.

Amazing thing is only 4 European endurance societies have openly critisised the big 3, UAE, Bahrain & Qatar, all the others, inlcuding Britain have not commented. Look at www.endurance-belgium.com, english translations of articles on site. One guy who openly told FEI that cheating should be addressed, Pierre Arnould, has been given a warning by FEI, but the guy in Newmarket, whose just won the Europeans, & trains for one of the big 3, where they found drugs in his endurance stable hasn't had any sanctions against him. Something smells very rotten. Some things could be implemented quickly, ban countries until after 3 years (as an example) of clean in & out of season unannounced random drug testing with no fail (as soon as another fail ban extended by another 3 years), stewards on course to prevent riders taking short cuts, penalities for crew areas being left in a mess (these riders use bottled water at crew points & just dump all the containers where they are used - at Most the european crews were so ashamed they went around clearing up after them) - this is meant to be an environmentally friendly sport, no preferential treatment for countries who sponsor events (as Belgium article says, it's like if they sponsored SJ having the fences lowered 10cm for their competitors), stewards in vet gates who do something & closely watch certain countries e.g. to prevent snake venom being injected into tired/lame horses so they can continue, limit number of people in crew to 3 max to prevent intimidation by numbers & level the playing field, testing of horses & weighing of riders reguarly to help prevent cheating - not taking no for an answer no matter where they rule, where rider has a horse die, a full investigation & open disclosure of results, where stables have multiple deaths their ban from competition until full & open investigation carried out, change of track to reduce max attainable speed, & shift the emphasis from pure speed to rider having to ride well & manage horse over more challenging teraain to maintain soundness & metabolic status. 

I'm no-one, just an EGB member, if I can come up with these things in a couple of minutes, how come the new task group are dragging their heels? In EGB members are calling for a boycott of the FEI 2* ladies race at Newbury. Firstly, we don't need to race according to sex, we are more than happy to take the men on, the sport isn't down to human strength, & seconding because it has middle eastern sponsorship. No doubt they will get entries drawn in by money, but I bet there wont be anyone entering who is disgusted by what certain nations get away with in regard to the treatment of their animals & cheating.


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## FairyLights (21 October 2013)

it stinks pip6. It would be good if EGB members wuld write to EGB saying they will refuse to renew their membership if EGB doesnt condem the abuse going on.


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## pip6 (21 October 2013)

There's plenty going on in the members forum believe you me. Read the belgium articles, what goes on is truly disgusting. Members of EGB are emailing their support to belgium endurance, we are supporting what is right, even if EGB & BEF wont come out & say it.


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## FairyLights (21 October 2013)

Thats good to hear re the members but EGB and BEf need to say it too.


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## pip6 (27 October 2013)

Step in the WRONG direction! How on earth do they see this as a positive & progressive step???!

http://www.sheikhmansoorfestival.com/news/aro.newbury.aspx

I'm not the only person who sees this as a chance to introduce gender specific races into endurance! Looks like a backdoor approach to getting men only races, which would be very popular in certain areas of the globe that don't believe in sexual equality (& in racing refuse to have female stable staff or jockeys in their yards). Do a ladies race first in a western country, then this sets a precidence for introducing men only races, which we know some countries would like to be able to do. Saves the controversy that would be caused by doing in in their own countries first. They've already tried one back door approach of doing races with a higher minimum weight, so light weight women would have to carry heaps of lead to enter in order to make the weight. Interesting to see which area of the globe the sponsorship is coming from......


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## Pale Rider (27 October 2013)

Fairly obvious where they are going with this. I don't like it and won't support it, others will take the silver on offer.


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## Maesfen (27 October 2013)

Such a shame that a decent sport with the welfare of the horse as paramount should be reduced to this.  If they want to play the 'exclusive' card how about only nationals allowed to compete in each country unless it is an international event as well?  Gets rid of them at a stroke; does anyone really need their money because they sure as hell aren't bringing any benefit to the horses to the sport?


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## Pale Rider (27 October 2013)

It's rapidly becoming clear the aims and ambitions of some Arab countries who are influencing equestrianism in the UK, Sheikh Mansoor Bin Zayed Al Nahyan and all his works are now practically untenable given the amount of doping and rule breaking that he has presided over. A clean bill of health following an exhaustive investigation by one of his wives doesn't really cut the mustard, in fact it would be laughable if it wasn't so serious. Still if you take his money he calls the tune. If he really wants credibility, which you cannot buy, bye the way, he needs to clean up his act. If women want to take part in gender specific races then they will be sealing their own fate in the future.


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## pip6 (28 October 2013)

Well what a surprise. FEI have posted this but made NO public / press announcement. Guess which country banned horse/rider from, not hard, realistically only 3 to pick from....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ol...banned-after-latest-positive-doping-test.html


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