# Incident with land owner - WWYD?



## hessy12 (3 October 2012)

I was hacking on land when a man drove up in a truck and said 'what are you doing here?'
I said "riding" he said "you shouldn't be here" I said "sorry I'll leave now and not come back" but he had grabbed my horses' right rein. 

There are no signs on the land saying 'private' or similar. 

The man asked me to give him my details, I refused and asked repeatedly, over and over, politely for him to release my horses' rein. He did not. He started to shout at me "Give me your ****ing details". Horse was freaking, swishing his tail, raising his head. The man was pulling on the right rein so hard the bit was practically all the way through the horses' mouth. 
I thought he might rear up. I was very very scared of this man, I was alone miles from anywhere. 

So, I hit the man with my crop until he let go. My horse immediately galloped off (scared), the man followed hot on my heels and chased us, shouting and swearing "i'm gonna do you for assult" and generally being horrid. I ignored him and went home. 

Police came a week or so later, man is charging me with assult. He showed police the welts on his back. 

I admitted I ought not to have been there but there are no signs. I told them how scared I was and that it was dangerous him pulling on the rein and scaring my horse. 
Police have arranged me to meet the man at a "restorative justice" session this week. I have to apologise and listen to the man. 

What I want is an apology from HIM. He grabbed my horse for no reason and if he had let go when I asked him to repeatedly, none of this would've happened. 

I know I should not have hit him but I was exceptionally frightened and did not know if he or me or my horse would be injured if horse reared which he could easily have done. 

It is a big mess and I am angry at the police for saying the man did not assult my horse - apparently no such offense exists. 
My husband is furious and thinks I should charge the man with assult, after all he grabbed my horse after I said I was sorry and was leaving etc. 

So, please advice me. Should I go to this restorative justice session and accept the blame or see a lawyer. I am very upset.


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## Flummoxed (3 October 2012)

If there were no signs suggesting that this was a right of way, you were committing trespass. You don't have any sympathy from me.


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## Jools1234 (3 October 2012)

Wow sounds like a bit of an ordeal, i reckon you need to go and apologise and listen cos i dont think the law would support you in this, hopefully he will think twice before doing it to someone else now.


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## Grumpy Jewel (3 October 2012)

What a horrible incident!! I'm not sure with regard to legalities, but it may be worth consulting legal help (either bhs gold services, equine specific or general legal help may be available in your home insurance details or your horses policy). It does seem ridiculous that intimidating behaviour towards yourself can go seemingly un noticed, but the law can be strange!


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## CBFan (3 October 2012)

Why do there have to be signs saying it is private land???! Just because it is a field, doesn't mean it doesn't belong to anybody. 

I'm afraid I agree with the above. you were caught trespassing fair and square and while I don't condone this man's behaviour, you were in the wrong.

I would go to the meeting and apologise and in future stick to designated bridleways and land that you have the land owner's permission to be on.


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## Luci07 (3 October 2012)

Go and get legal advice before you see this man. You do need to understand the implications ( no idea what they could be) before seeing him. Said man has been able to find you ( how? )  and whatever the rights and wrongs, you have badly scared and he showed aggression.  I have trespassed in innocence when walking the dogs and did meet a fairly aggressive landowner but he accepted it was a geniune mistake as path not marked clearly.  Footpath ran to the right of a field but there was also a path and area to the left. Guess who chose the wrong one!


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## Tinsel Trouble (3 October 2012)

Flummoxed said:



			If there were no signs suggesting that this was a right of way, you were committing trespass. You don't have any sympathy from me.
		
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This. It was incredibly arrogant of you to assume you have the right to ride over his land, regardless of his behaviour. The below website shows the R.O.Ws you can use,.

www.streetmap.co.uk


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## Beausmate (3 October 2012)

You seem to be in the wrong here.  I'd go and apologise and hope he doesn't take it further.  Say you're sorry for riding on private land and very sorry you hit him as you were scared.  He might have calmed down a bit too, accept your apology and leave it at that.  You can hope anyway!


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## JANANI (3 October 2012)

I would have told the police that you were terrified for your life and thought that something really bad was going to happen. I would have stated that it was self defense. 

Then in future do not ride on peoples land unless you have permission from the land owner!!


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## ladyt25 (3 October 2012)

Firstly I would seek some legal advice as i am no expect at all BUT i would certainly advise doing what the police suggest but i would make sure you get you side of the story there - You were riding on land that you had no reason to suspect you should not be on. You were appoached by a man who asked you to leave and you said ok (did you not ask him why at this point?) Said man then got aggressive, grabbed your horse so you were unable to leave as he had asked and then starting swearing at you and you felt threatened by his aggessive behaviour and did not know what extent he may go to as you feared he was going to either pull horse over or pull you off the horse endangering bioth you and the horse's life.


Did he at any point say he was the landowner?

He did not let go of the hose as you had asked so in my mind if i were you and someone was being that aggessive then I see that as a threat to your safety, even your life as you were not to know if he was the landowner or not - he could just be someone out to attack people (women) so in that split second you felt you had to defend yourself and force him to release the hold on your horse and the only way you felt to do this was to use all you had to hand - ie the whip!

You need to stand your ground, reiterate you felt frightened and threatened by this man and his behaviour.


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## annunziata (3 October 2012)

Sorry to hear about this but I have to agree if you were on his land without his permission and there was no right of way then you are in the wrong and should not have been there.  How he behaved to you is not good but there is no way of proving it.  I think you are going to have to appologies


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## CBFan (3 October 2012)

Grumpy Jewel said:



			What a horrible incident!! I'm not sure with regard to legalities, but it may be worth consulting legal help (either bhs gold services, equine specific or general legal help may be available in your home insurance details or your horses policy). It does seem ridiculous that intimidating behaviour towards yourself can go seemingly un noticed, but the law can be strange!
		
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So if someone were to walk brazenly into your front room just because they fancied it, are you telling me you wouldn't behave in an intimidating fashion??!


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## CobsGalore (3 October 2012)

Yeah I think you need to go and apologise too, I think if you argue your case you will be prosecuted. The law won't sympathise for your horse, they will just see you as a trespasser who hit a man with a crop!


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## Littlelegs (3 October 2012)

Tbh, just cos it wasn't sign posted private it doesn't give you the right to ride across it. My house & garden don't have private signs but I don't expect to find people in them. If you hadn't trespassed it wouldn't have happened, rather than if he hadn't grabbed you. I have to say, if I found someone wrecking my garden on horseback, I'd want their details too & I'd hold the horse till I got them.


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## skint1 (3 October 2012)

I think that in mitigation you need to emphasise that you felt alone and frightened and had agreed to leave the area immediately when he grabbed your horse, he ignored your repeated requests to let go of your horse which caused you to panic, am not sure if what he did could be classed as assault and you may not get your apology, scary situation


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## Wagtail (3 October 2012)

We have loads of land around us and I would never dream of riding on it without permission. There does not have to be a sign put up on every field to say it's private. However, I think this man was unnecesarily aggressive and I am not surprised you were frightened. You say he wanted your details and only grabbed the horse after you refused to give them. Why didn't you give your details? And if you didn't give details, how did the police know who to go and see? If you had just given him your name and address, then he would have let you go, wouldn't he?


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## ladyt25 (3 October 2012)

But IF the land or bridleways are not clearly marked then sometimes it is very hard to tell if you have strayed from a designated right of way. There are numerous bridleways where I live that are not all signed - or at least not from both ends! Some are because old signs have fallen, others just never had signs but are noted on maps as bridleways. It isn't always clear cut and therefore could be quite easy to trespass withou knowing it.


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## Hoofprints in the Snow (3 October 2012)

That is awful. I think you should have contacted the police yourself and reported him as soon as you got away. You where defending yourself while he was assulting you by grabbing the rein and not letting go, putting you in fear for your life. I would have retaliated in the same way, but would have called the police myself as soon as I could. In not doing so, you have given him a chance to get away with it.

Sorry I can't offer you any advice except to speak to a solicitor perhaps.

If you where on your horse at the time, surely he must have been very close for you to hit him afew times, not in his car, but close enough for you to reach, therfore he was too close to someone on horseback. I'd ask the police to question him why he was so close to you in the first place.


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## Cocorules (3 October 2012)

I feel for you but if you are in England you can only ride where you are allowed to and it is up to you to get that right. He did himself no favours by holding you against your will. I understand why that would have worried you so much as someone did that to me as a child and it frightened me !

I cannot see how he had legal authority to detain you as even though you were trespassing that is a civil rather than criminal offence. You should perhaps point that out to the police.

I do not see why you should not use reasonable force to prevent yourself from being detained, but if he has welts on his back it sounds as though you were pretty forceful.

I suggest you take advice from a solicitor as to what to do and whether in taking part in this session you get a criminal record as you are admitting you were wrong.

I feel for the landowner too because I would be seriously annoyed if someone trespassed on my land and when confronted hit me.  

I think you both got it wrong but do what you need to do to move on and do not beat yourself up we all make mistakes.


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## Fools Motto (3 October 2012)

Oh dear, a big mess it seems.
Firstly, there is always someone who owns land, and some land owners have signs, footpaths, bridleways ect.. some have 'no trespassing'. I wouldn't dream of going on someones land, without their prior permission when NO signs are seen. It is equal to that of going into someones garden, they have no signs, but you wouldn't do it, it doesn't belong to you.

But, the past happened, I really think you should do as you are asked. Apologise for not understanding 'private land' rules. Offer him a token of good will gesture, ie, bottle of wine, ask if there is anything you can do to help him on his farm/land (like putting up 'private' signs) Getting cross and upset will anger these types more, you know you did wrong after all. I'm sorry it happened, but you really do have to adhere to the rules and regulations.

I can understand that you were very upset about him grabbing your horse, but it doesn't sound like you were being very polite to him, although you said you were leaving. Something like 'I'm terribly sorry, I must have misundertood the local bridleway network, is it ok to turn around and go this way, or is there a quicker way out ahead? I won't do it again, can I offer you anything in return for this occasion?'   
I'm sure your horse will be fine.


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## ladyt25 (3 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			We have loads of land around us and I would never dream of riding on it without permission. There does not have to be a sign put up on every field to say it's private. However, I think this man was unnecesarily aggressive and I am not surprised you were frightened. You say he wanted your details and only grabbed the horse after you refused to give them. Why didn't you give your details? And if you didn't give details, how did the police know who to go and see? If you had just given him your name and address, then he would have let you go, wouldn't he?
		
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But why should she give details? Why couldn't he just accept the apology and let her go and turn round? There is NO excuse to react how he did at all, his land or not. Did he even tell the OP at the time he was the landowner?

My dad was walking up in the dales and came across some people who had just been bawled at by some stroppy farmer who said they had no right to walk where they were walking (they were turning round and coming back towards my dad). My dad continued walking and was approached by this farmer as well (the other people had not stood up to him!). The fact was it WAS a footpath/right of way but Mr Farmer didn't like people walking it so was essentially threatening people to keep them off it! My dad let him know this fact and continued his walk.


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## PandorasJar (3 October 2012)

Hmm. You shouldn't have been there and if I was this bloke I'd have probably done the same.... however.

Trespass is not illegal. 

I would get a letter of apology written. I'd state that I was very sorry to have been on land I should not have been on and that I will not set foot on site again, could he please provide you with the boundary to his land so you do not mistakenly cross onto it again.

I'd also mention that it is a dangerous thing to do to grab a horses rein rather than just asking you to leave.
State that his actions put you out of control of the animal and him in control should any harm have come to you or another innocent passer by as a result.

I should imagine that a number of people take the piss and he was annoyed and you owe him an apology.


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## fatpiggy (3 October 2012)

Is this a wind-up?  I can't believe the man was wearing so little clothing, given the recent weather, that a whip would leave any marks on him, for a start.

I'd have given a false name and address if he agreed to release the horse's reins, and stayed off other people's property in future.


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## Miss L Toe (3 October 2012)

Oddly enough I have had two police incidents in my whole life and both horse related, I called 999 after a stud owner punched [broke] my wing mirror after losing his temper, basically because I was letting my pony graze [inhand] on a roadway owned by my YO, not on his land or his yard.
I also was in fear of violence from [a different] YOs husband, and I made a report so that if I was found in a ditch they would know where to look for the culprit. It took  a bit of persuasion to get an incident number, but you can't have people acting agressively to you.
No one has the right to hold on to  your horse regardless of what you did, as far as I am concerned you got yourself out of a nasty situation as best you could, you were being assaulted and took action. 
Don't go to this person cap in hand, ask for him to be arrested, not that that will happen as there are no witnesses, but he must have been very near you in order to be hit. 
Nothing will come of it, all this reconciliation business is too namby-pamby in this instance. Particularly as you are the victim.


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## Miss L Toe (3 October 2012)

PandorasJar said:



			Hmm. You shouldn't have been there and if I was this bloke I'd have probably done the same.... however.

Trespass is not illegal. 

I would get a letter of apology written. I'd state that I was very sorry to have been on land I should not have been on and that I will not set foot on site again, could he please provide you with the boundary to his land so you do not mistakenly cross onto it again.

I'd also mention that it is a dangerous thing to do to grab a horses rein rather than just asking you to leave.
State that his actions put you out of control of the animal and him in control should any harm have come to you or another innocent passer by as a result.

I should imagine that a number of people take the piss and he was annoyed and you owe him an apology.
		
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Absolute rubbish, OP was apologetic, he was agressive, end of.


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## Crumpet (3 October 2012)

Seek legal advice, and go to the meeting, lets face it you shouldn't have been there and shouldn't have leathered him either. I'm not saying that he wasn't out of order in the way that he dealt with you, but you will have the opportunity to air your side at the session. How did the police find you? Why didn't you report it? I'd have phoned the police as he had his hand on the bridle, what's the worst that could have happened? Swallow your pride, be honest when you're there and be thankful that you will probably escape a criminal assault charge. I livery on a farm and we don't ever ride on the fields let alone on someone elses land. Get an OS map and stay where you are legally allowed to ride.


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## PandorasJar (3 October 2012)

fatpiggy said:



			Is this a wind-up?  I can't believe the man was wearing so little clothing, given the recent weather, that a whip would leave any marks on him, for a start.

I'd have given a false name and address if he agreed to release the horse's reins, and stayed off other people's property in future.
		
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Now there's an image 

I have always found that I've been asked where I'm from. So I answer honestly. No need to know where I'm living now...


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## zaminda (3 October 2012)

Yes, you were trespassing, but how many of us have got lost on badly signed paths and ended up where we shouldn't? I certainly have! Trespass is not a criminal matter, but assault is, the man was acting dangerously, and threatening you, how did you even know he was the land owner? (I have been accosted by someone on private land, which I had permission to be on, by a dog walker who certainly didn't!!) I think the police should see your actions as self defence, lone female, who has apologised and tried to ride off being accosted by man trying to terrify her? Sorry, but it might be his land, that doesn't stop him from behaving decently. All the, you wouldn't ride through someones garden is slightly off track, and it doesn't sound like the OP is a repeat offender, in which case I could understand him getting irrate, but would still never condone this sort of behaviour, and am amazed that anyone is! I doubt if any of us would go outside and attack people I certainly wouldn't.Take legal advice, I would certainly like to know how he found you, that in itself is rather worrying


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## horsey mad matt (3 October 2012)

CBFan said:



			Why do there have to be signs saying it is private land???! Just because it is a field, doesn't mean it doesn't belong to anybody. 

I'm afraid I agree with the above. you were caught trespassing fair and square and while I don't condone this man's behaviour, you were in the wrong.

I would go to the meeting and apologise and in future stick to designated bridleways and land that you have the land owner's permission to be on.
		
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you say this, amd i undrstand that she was in the wrong for tresspassing, but she said sorry for doing this and said she would leave and not come back. so why does this give him the right to this. i think the op is yes in the wrong for tresspassing but for nothing else! i would have probably done the same if someone grabbed my horse and didn't let go, it's self defence


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## Oriel (3 October 2012)

ladyt25 said:



			He did not let go of the hose as you had asked so in my mind if i were you and someone was being that aggessive then I see that as a threat to your safety, even your life as you were not to know if he was the landowner or not - he could just be someone out to attack people (women) so in that split second you felt you had to defend yourself and force him to release the hold on your horse and the only way you felt to do this was to use all you had to hand - ie the whip!

You need to stand your ground, reiterate you felt frightened and threatened by this man and his behaviour.
		
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I agree with the above. You couldn't have known that he was the landowner - he could have been anyone.

It sounds like he was overly aggressive. Once you said you would leave he should have let you go. Why would need need your details? I would have thought any woman alone, miles from anywhere, has every right to be scared in these circumstances and do whatever necessary to get away. 

I wouldn't go to the meeting - I would seek legal advice. Once you go to the meeting you won't have a leg to stand on, it will be seen as an admission of guilt. I don't think you'll have the opportunity to say 'sorry I trespassed, but you had hold of my horse and I was frightened'... I think you will be expected to apologise unreservedly.

Good luck!


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## Miss L Toe (3 October 2012)

CBFan said:



			So if someone were to walk brazenly into your front room just because they fancied it, are you telling me you wouldn't behave in an intimidating fashion??!
		
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It was not his front room, if you look at the Right of Access in Scotland for example there is a clear distinction between access to open land and access to a farmyard or a garden, for example. He over - reacted and OP took action as she was being physically restrained.


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## hessy12 (3 October 2012)

Thank you all very much for your replies. 
No, this is not a wind up. I did not want to give him my details - why would I? I did not know who he was,  he was intimidating me, I had already said I was sorry and was going and that I wouldn't come on the land again. He ignored this and decided to be aggressive. 
I will go and apologise - I will let you know the outcome. It pains me to have to do this, I feel I deserve an apology from him. I feel the police have been useless. No he was not naked, he had on some clothes but how I am to know if the 'wounds' he showed the cops were inflicted by me, or not? Anyone could've done it. The police did not want him to pursue an assult charge but they warned me that if i don;t 'sound sorry enough' at this meeting, he will pursue charges. I do NOT want this to happen. I am a law abiding person who reacted the only way I could in a horribly stressful situation. What would you have done if it was you whose horse was being held and was getting very upset? If he had reared, he could've knocked out the man or killed him. He is a big powerful boy. 

Someone has told me that if land is not marked private or no entry etc, then a law called 'bear's law' means we can walk on it. Otherwise, how would folk walk up to your front door and knock on it?
Anyway, I'll go and hang my head in shame, avoid the area and buy a map.


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## Hackie (3 October 2012)

I'd seek legal advice as well...

Okay, so you shouldn&#8217;t have been there, but you apologised and tried to leave &#8211; that&#8217;s completely reasonable.  No harm had been done.

However, he prevented you from leaving (because you wouldn't give your contact details to an aggressive stranger???  Who would?) and you had to use force to get him to let you go.  You were defending yourself.

If you hadn&#8217;t been on a horse and he&#8217;s been holding directly onto your person to detain you, this would be clearer, however in my mind its seems pretty much the same thing,

And what he was doing was really dangerous &#8211; holding onto a horse&#8217;s head like that could provoke even a quiet horse into rearing.  No way would I apologise if someone did that to me (but I&#8217;m stubborn like that).  I'd be see what he can be charged with, as he was the instigator.


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## Littlelegs (3 October 2012)

Good point fatpiggy. Leaving welts with a crop is pretty hard unless man barely dressed. Plus, as he was holding the reins, op would have to hit him a few times in quick succession to leave more than one welt, meaning the self defence option isn't viable. If she hit him a few times quickly, he didn't get chance to let go after first hit. And it doesn't make sense that he'd continue to stand with his back turned while someone hit him. So either she hit him in quick succession, or continued to hit him after he let go.


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## zaminda (3 October 2012)

Don't you dare hang your head in shame! I would be complaining to the police about there attitude! He assaulted you, and put both of you in danger. Trespass is not illegal, he attacked you, self defence, tell them to shove it!


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## JANANI (3 October 2012)

I wouldn't being apologising to him for hitting him either. I would apologise for being on the land but that is it. I would also tell him that if someone was to grab my horse like that I would welt them with my whip. Lone female on my own in the middle of nowhere and some strange man (murderer rapist ????) grabbed my horse to restrain me. Any female in that situation would do the same thing.


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## Maesfen (3 October 2012)

Flummoxed said:



			If there were no signs suggesting that this was a right of way, you were committing trespass. You don't have any sympathy from me.
		
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Couldn't agree more.  You were totally in the wrong to even be there.


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## Spiritedly (3 October 2012)

Did the man ever say he was the landowner or connected to the landowner? Yes you shouldn't have been riding on the land if you didn't know if it was a bridle way but there's no way I would give my details to a total stranger in the middle of a field just because he asked me for them! You are also entitled to use 'reasonable' force to defend yourself and he was holding you against your will. I would seek legal advice from someone qualified though. They may advise advise someway of mutual justice. Restorative justice is a chance for the victim to explain how they felt so you could use it as an opportunity to say sorry but explain why you acted the way you did.


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## Crumpet (3 October 2012)

Don't hang your head in shame, just put it down to experience. Mediation is about both parties having a satisfactory outcome, if you calmly explain the situation and give a genuine apology then if he chooses not to accept it you have tried your best. The police aren't going to lock you in a room with a raging man and not supervise the session.


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## combat_claire (3 October 2012)

Coming at this from a Land Agent's point of view I have several land owning clients who are driven to distraction by riders who think they can ride wherever they please. There is often a damn good reason other than sheer grumpiness why landowners and farmers shout at people who are trespassing: 

By riding over that tempting looking grass margin you could be jeopardising environmental measures as well as costing the farmer hundreds in lost environmental payments.

There could be other activities like a shoot taking place or about to take place in the area and you riding over the land could be a danger to yourself. 

There could potentially have also been dangerous stock, which is allowed to graze on land where there is no public right of way including water buffalo, dairy cows and ostriches - all of which have been seen grazing in the locality and could cause you a nasty injury if you entered their field. 

Whilst he probably scared you by shouting at you and demanding details (presumably so he could pursue a civil tort for trespass against you) it can never be right to hit someone multiple times with your whip. 

Go to the meeting, apologise gracefully and consider yourself lucky if he doesn't press charges.


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## combat_claire (3 October 2012)

Hackie said:



			I'd be see what he can be charged with, as he was the instigator.
		
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Ridiculous. the instigator of this sorry mess is the person who rode onto HIS land uninvited.


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## Beausmate (3 October 2012)

There are no witnesses to the man holding on to the horse, so he could say he didn't touch it, just asked the OP to leave/for details and she attacked him.  

He may well be lying, but if he has welts from a whip, then there's proof he was hit, nothing to back up the OP though.  I'd be apologising, even though I really wouldn't want to if I'd felt that threatened.  It's better than a criminal record and it sounds like this bloke isn't too keen to back down.

Whips do mark through clothes, depending on the flexibility and force with which they're used.  It hurts!  If someone hit me like that, I'd be pushing for assault charges too.  But I wouldn't be grabbing hold of someone's horse in the first place.


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## Maesfen (3 October 2012)

ladyt25 said:



			- You were riding on land that you had no reason to suspect you should not be on. 
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Precisely.  Unless there are BW signs or you have express permission from the land owner then an empty field is not your carte blanche to ride in it.  I can't believe the arrogance of the OP for assuming they can go where they like.  No wonder riders get a bad name.  Bet they wouldn't like it if someone rolled up in the garden and kicked a football about without their permission so why should a farmer's field be any different?


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## WelshD (3 October 2012)

I think when he asked you what you were doing there and you said 'riding' was probably where it all started to go wrong for you! I would see that as very cheeky personally. 

If you hadnt been on his land none of this would have happened so I am another one with no sympathy at all for you I'm afraid. 

So WWID? I would apologise and hope to avoid an assault charge


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## pip6 (3 October 2012)

Whilst I believe the attitude of it's fine to ride on unmarked land is very wrong, I also believe it is not clear cut as police leading you to believe. I ride surrounded by inviting fields with open gates, but would never dream of going in unless I had the permission of the landowner. You do owe him an apology for this.

I would not have given my details. TBH I'd have made some up to get rid of him. The instant he laid a hand on the rein he was forcibly detaining you against your wish. You had apologised for your mistake, caused no damage. Why did he need your details? If someone did this to me I wouldn't ask questions,  run the horse towards them (I don't carry a whip). That detention would instantly make me fearful of my safety, & I would have no intention of waiting to find out how far he would go. I have had a person threaten my person out hacking, & I did run them off a track with my horse in response. If you'd parked your car on private land without realising, & landowner physically detained you it would be assault on their part. Surely any action to free yourself from a dangerous situation is warrent as defense?


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## Cocorules (3 October 2012)

Just to answer your bears law point OP you have a right to walk up to someone's front door as the landowner is deemed to consent to this unless they put up a notice saying otherwise.  However that only applies to that situation.


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## Elbie (3 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			I did not want to give him my details - why would I? I did not know who he was...

...they warned me that if i don;t 'sound sorry enough' at this meeting, he will pursue charges
		
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I don't see why he needed your details. I've been approached by a landowner when I accidentally strayed onto his land. He wanted to know where I kept the horse. Why? I explained I took the wrong turn after following farm ride arrows indicating the route. One arrow was at a very jaunty angle and made it impossible to tell which was the correct path. Silly me, I chose the nice open grassy route instead of the dark overgrown muddy route! Definitely don't see why he would need your details at that point seeing as you said you would leave straight away.

I would go and say sorry but also stress the fact that you reacted the way you did as he was frightening your horse and he was putting you and him in a situation where someone could get seriously hurt.


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## Black_Horse_White (3 October 2012)

Yes you were wrong to be on his land, but if he'd have grabbed my horses reins he'd have been pulling his teeth out of my boot.


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## jrp204 (3 October 2012)

Sorry, you left yourself open for this, you knew you shouldn't have been there... simples. Apologise and don't be so arrogant to think you can ride where you like. Holding a rein is not a criminal offence, hitting someone is.


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## guido16 (3 October 2012)

combat_claire said:



			There could potentially have also been dangerous stock, which is allowed to graze on land where there is no public right of way including water buffalo, dairy cows and ostriches - all of which have been seen grazing in the locality
		
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Claire, are you involved in this case?

By the by, I completely agree with your posts, especially reference shoots, add to that, young birds are being put out and fed at this time of year.


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## MerrySherryRider (3 October 2012)

Good heavens. On behalf of considerate horse riders, I'd like to go to this meeting and apologise to him.

 Riding around the countryside like the Lady of the manor and giving someone a good whipping because they object to you trampling across their land isn't quite the done thing these days.

However, if you don't want to apologise, make a lawyer rich instead.


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## OWLIE185 (3 October 2012)

I am sorry to hear of this incident.
I would strongly suggest that you get advice from a specialist equine solicitor.
If you are a GOLD member of the BHS you will get free legal advice from their helpline-  May be worthwhile to join now just for this.
I would suggest that the person that held on to your horse had commited 'assault'.  Even if you were on his land he has no write to make any physical contact with you.  He should have simply asked you to leave using a a calm voice.  From your description he used a raised voice and therefore you had every right to be in fear of him especially if he grabbed the reins of your horse.  I would also suggest that you could make a counter claim for assault.


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## shadowboy (3 October 2012)

Trespass is not a criminal offence actually so the matter they have asked you to attend for must be over the assault, I actually appreciate how easy it can be to accidentally stray onto private land when bridle ways are unclear! I think he over reacted and I too would have been very afraid of his intentions!


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## Caol Ila (3 October 2012)

I would have done the same as the OP if someone grabbed a hold of my horse.  Sounds like self-defense me.  I agree that she should speak to a lawyer and get advice before going to this meeting.  

And then she should watch these videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij5XlNKt1Zo

http://www.horsethink.com/media/selfdefensepromo.wmv


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## Bluepegasus2802 (3 October 2012)

I'm sorry but I personally see no need for hitting him with your whip like that. If you felt frightened, you could have just said to him to let go otherwise you'll call the police, and then if he hadn't, I would have calmly rung the police. You were the one out of line, not him.


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## combat_claire (3 October 2012)

guido16 said:



			Claire, are you involved in this case?

By the by, I completely agree with your posts, especially reference shoots, add to that, young birds are being put out and fed at this time of year.
		
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No definitely not involved. By locality I meant East Anglia seeing that OP is from Norfolk and I reside over border in Cambridgeshire.


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## PandorasJar (3 October 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Absolute rubbish, OP was apologetic, he was agressive, end of.
		
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Maybe if you have your head in the clouds.

---------------------------

Use of Force against Those Committing Crime

Prosecutors should exercise particular care when assessing the reasonableness of the force used in those cases in which the alleged victim was, or believed by the accused to have been, at the material time, engaged in committing a crime. ...

In assessing whether it was necessary to use force, prosecutors should bear in mind the period of time in which the person had to decide whether to act against another who he/she thought to be committing an offence.

The circumstances of each case will need to be considered very carefully.
---------------------------

It is not as black and white as you seem to think.

As C_C has stated there could be any number of reasons why she could have put herself in far more danger walking forwards.

If I was the man in question I'd simply say I was performing a citizens areest to prevent damage to property at which point I was attacked.

If I was the rider I'd say that I was in the process of leaving and thus no requirement to do so.

However as they were the only two people there it'll be up to a third party to decide who's story sounds more likely.

It's not a simple fixed answer.


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## jrp204 (3 October 2012)

Holding a rein does not constitute assault. OP states horse was 'freaking out' throwing its head and swishing its tail and she was afraid it would rear. It did not rear, so maybe her interpretation of freaking out is different to others. We are only having one side of this story, this incident could have lasted less than 1 minute or 5. BUT she does admit to hitting this man.
I am not condoning this mans behaviour but she is in the wrong, she should go to the police and apologise, you never know the man may admit he was in the wrong too, but he did not commit assault.


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## Black_Horse_White (3 October 2012)

So if the landowner had grabbed the rider and not the horse that would have been assault? It was a knee jerk reaction to a scary situation, I'm afraid if a stranger tried to restrain me I would do whatever to get free.


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## hessy12 (3 October 2012)

combat_claire said:



			Coming at this from a Land Agent's point of view I have several land owning clients who are driven to distraction by riders who think they can ride wherever they please. There is often a damn good reason other than sheer grumpiness why landowners and farmers shout at people who are trespassing: 

By riding over that tempting looking grass margin you could be jeopardising environmental measures as well as costing the farmer hundreds in lost environmental payments.

There could be other activities like a shoot taking place or about to take place in the area and you riding over the land could be a danger to yourself. 

There could potentially have also been dangerous stock, which is allowed to graze on land where there is no public right of way including water buffalo, dairy cows and ostriches - all of which have been seen grazing in the locality and could cause you a nasty injury if you entered their field. 

Whilst he probably scared you by shouting at you and demanding details (presumably so he could pursue a civil tort for trespass against you) it can never be right to hit someone multiple times with your whip. 

Go to the meeting, apologise gracefully and consider yourself lucky if he doesn't press charges.
		
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Well with respect you were not there and I didn't hit him 'multiple times'; i hit him until he let go! Then I left. Your post is highly patronising to me.


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## guido16 (3 October 2012)

combat_claire said:



			No definitely not involved. By locality I meant East Anglia seeing that OP is from Norfolk and I reside over border in Cambridgeshire.
		
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Ah, ok, got you.


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## hessy12 (3 October 2012)

horserider said:



			Good heavens. On behalf of considerate horse riders, I'd like to go to this meeting and apologise to him.

 Riding around the countryside like the Lady of the manor and giving someone a good whipping because they object to you trampling across their land isn't quite the done thing these days.

However, if you don't want to apologise, make a lawyer rich instead.
		
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Gosh, your sarcasm is VERY good isn't it!!!


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## bonny (3 October 2012)

Reading these riding on people's land which always seem to end up with countless people saying the same thing re living rooms, gardens etc makes me glad to live in Scotland where we can ride more or less where we like. Does anyone know if such a sensible, fair idea will ever apply to England as well and then situations like this one would simply not arise.


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## Pearlsasinger (3 October 2012)

OP, you need to consult a solicitor before you go to this meeting.  You need to understand the full implications of an apology, will it mean that you have admitted wrong-doing and get you a criminal record?

FWIW, while you should neither have been on the land in the first place, nor have hit him several times, I quite understand that you were frightened when accosted by a strange man, who may or may not have been the land-owner, asking for your details.
When you apologised and offered to leave immediately, that should have been the end of the matter, unless you had caused some form of damage, e.g. breaking down fences.


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## hessy12 (3 October 2012)

Bluepegasus2802 said:



			I'm sorry but I personally see no need for hitting him with your whip like that. If you felt frightened, you could have just said to him to let go otherwise you'll call the police, and then if he hadn't, I would have calmly rung the police. You were the one out of line, not him.
		
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Errr, did you read my post??? For minutes and minutes I pleaded with him to let go.

 I asked very politely. He did not. 

I was very, very frightened, alone, vulnerable and being detained against my will. In situations like that, all humans are liable to just REACT on the spot. This is what I did. 

I am now regretting posting this. I never thought I'd get called 'arrogant' by several people replying to my thread. I shall bow out now. Thanks to all who did post constructively.


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## jrp204 (3 October 2012)

bonny said:



			Reading these riding on people's land which always seem to end up with countless people saying the same thing re living rooms, gardens etc makes me glad to live in Scotland where we can ride more or less where we like. Does anyone know if such a sensible, fair idea will ever apply to England as well and then situations like this one would simply not arise.[/QUOTE

We actually have a simple, fair system in England. If it is not your property, it is not a public ROW or BW or you don't have permission to be there. Don't go there!
		
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## ponypilotmum (3 October 2012)

No wonder some farmers despise horse riders. We're all seen as a bunch of hoity-toity people who just do as we please, and then we complain because we want the farmers to sell us hay at a loss. 

OP, you were on his land. You didn't stray from a bridleway so you had no excuse. 

You whipped him repeatedly, sorry, you deserve all you get. I hope the farmer DOES press charges. I can see why the police have no sympathy! 

And as for the rest of you, no matter how much you nit pick at the details, OP was not straying from a bridleway, she just decided to ride across a field belonging to someone else. She was rude to the farmer when asked what she was doing there. I, too, would have been angry and wanted to know which yard this rider had come from! I'd have been straight round to tell their YO to ensure that liveries knew what bridleway signs looked like.


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## Hedgewitch13 (3 October 2012)

No wonder the land owner went to the Police. Just accept that you need to apologise for your actions... being somewhere you shouldn't have been and for assaulting him with a whip!


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## Littlelegs (3 October 2012)

Sorry but it takes a lot of force to leave welts through clothing with a whip. The 'vulnerable lone female' doesn't make sense either. Granted, if a man tried to restrain me while I was on foot on a lonely track, I'd no doubt be intimidated. But mounted on a horse as a lone female you're hardly vulnerable to a man on foot. 
  Horserider- Pmsl, classic!


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## LJN (3 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			Gosh, your sarcasm is VERY good isn't it!!!
		
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People in glass houses.... Maybe if your initial reply to the bloke hadn't been so sarcastic, you wouldn't have got into this mess. And for what it's worth, if you hit him more than once then you hit him mutiple times!


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## Maesfen (3 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			I am now regretting posting this. I never thought I'd get called 'arrogant' by several people replying to my thread. I shall bow out now. Thanks to all who did post constructively.
		
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By 'constructively' it sounds like those posters are the ones that agree with you and you only want to hear from those. 

Of course you were arrogant to ride where you knew you did not own or was a public right of way, no other word for it.


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## Bluepegasus2802 (3 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			Errr, did you read my post??? For minutes and minutes I pleaded with him to let go.

 I asked very politely. He did not. 

I was very, very frightened, alone, vulnerable and being detained against my will. In situations like that, all humans are liable to just REACT on the spot. This is what I did. 

I am now regretting posting this. I never thought I'd get called 'arrogant' by several people replying to my thread. I shall bow out now. Thanks to all who did post constructively.
		
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So now you are having a tantrum just because there are some people on here that disagree with you. No wonder you got into trouble with the landowner. Regardless, I wish you luck.


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## bonny (3 October 2012)

jrp204 said:





bonny said:



			Reading these riding on people's land which always seem to end up with countless people saying the same thing re living rooms, gardens etc makes me glad to live in Scotland where we can ride more or less where we like. Does anyone know if such a sensible, fair idea will ever apply to England as well and then situations like this one would simply not arise.[/QUOTE

We actually have a simple, fair system in England. If it is not your property, it is not a public ROW or BW or you don't have permission to be there. Don't go there!
		
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Works much better here where you can go wherever you like without fear of someone shouting at you.  For what it's worth Op I wouldn't apologise if you think you were in the right....no one else was there so no one else really knows.
		
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## Serephin (3 October 2012)

Bloody hell - some of you are a bit harsh.  

OP, you did wrong by riding on the land, but from what you have said, he did far worse by losing his rag and trying (and succeeding) to intimidate you.

I would have been scared as well, and worried about how far he was willing to take it.  There is no proof those welts were caused by you.  Stand your corner and don't back down - he made you feel that you had to protect yourself, his lookout if he gets more than he expected.  Next time he might think twice before flying off the handle.


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## FfionWinnie (3 October 2012)

I am not going to comment on the whys and wherefores however you MUST seek legal advice before attending this meeting. Please!


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## wallykissmas (3 October 2012)

Serephin said:



			Bloody hell - some of you are a bit harsh.  

OP, you did wrong by riding on the land, but from what you have said, he did far worse by losing his rag and trying (and succeeding) to intimidate you.

I would have been scared as well, and worried about how far he was willing to take it.  There is no proof those welts were caused by you.  Stand your corner and don't back down - he made you feel that you had to protect yourself, his lookout if he gets more than he expected.  Next time he might think twice before flying off the handle.
		
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Totally agree, yes you shouldn't have been there but to grab hold of the horse and try to scare you isn't fair. Two wrongs do not make a right !!!

I would seek legal advise ASAP.

Would love to be a fly on a tree watching this happen to those who are " you won't get any sympathy from me".


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## Nightmare before Christmas (3 October 2012)

I think I would have had him too, though my horse may have first as shes a rearer and a boxer if you grab her reins! 

I think I would say sorry again for being there and explain how you offered to leave but he has restrained you from doing so. You must have hit him hard to leave marks though 

Im sorry that I find the whole thing a bit funny, I think you should both say sorry and move on! 

I would be laughing if it was me in that situation


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## combat_claire (3 October 2012)

wallykissmas said:



			Would love to be a fly on a tree watching this happen to those who are " you won't get any sympathy from me".
		
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The chances are it wouldn't happen to me because I always look at a map and follow the signs. If I am unsure where a right of way heads due to unclear track or poor signage I either ask, take a compass bearing or turn round and go back the way I came. Simples


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## Clippy (3 October 2012)

OP you were wrong to ride on land which you don't have permission to do so, but TBH, there are that many nutters about, if someone had grabbed my horse like that, i'm sure i'd have done the same as you.


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## Littlelegs (3 October 2012)

The whole point is that those of us with no sympathy wouldn't be in that situation in the first place, because we don't think its ok to trespass.


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## AdorableAlice (3 October 2012)

Spade, hole and stop digging.

An offence has to be proven before it can be prosecuted against.  To be proven there has to be evidence, witnesses, addmission or a combination of all three.

It appears you rode on private land and when approached by the landowner, who, it appears did not approach you in an appropriate manner, you reacted to the situation evolving around you.

The incident was not witnessed.  The thrashed back of the landowner could have been achieved anywhere, for all you know his wife gave him a smacking the night before.

Had you not admitted giving him a good hiding on a public forum there would have been absolutely nothing to pursue a case with.

Sandwich short of a picnic and if you find it don't eat it on private land !!


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## Patterdale (3 October 2012)

Same as LL. 

If you got home to find a stranger sunbathing in your garden, who when questioned said sorry, I'll just leave, would you be happy to leave if at that??! I'm guessing not. 

You were trespassing, and if you hit him hard enough to make welts appear through clothing you must have been having a good go. 

If I found someone riding through our land, particularly after all this rain, I'd probably ask you what the f you are doing. 

No sympathy I'm afraid. You should apologise.


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## AMW (3 October 2012)

Thank god I live in Scotland!
What a het up area this trespassing is. 
Wonder how any of us would have reacted in this situation.


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## ester (3 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			. But mounted on a horse as a lone female you're hardly vulnerable to a man on foot. 
!
		
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see I'm not sure about that because I am not convinced it would take a whole lot of force for someone to remove me from my 14.2 if they wanted to...


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## LJN (3 October 2012)

AMW said:



			Thank god I live in Scotland!
What a het up area this trespassing is.
		
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Out here the land owners just take pot-shots at you if you are on their land.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (3 October 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			Spade, hole and stop digging.

An offence has to be proven before it can be prosecuted against.  To be proven there has to be evidence, witnesses, addmission or a combination of all three.

It appears you rode on private land and when approached by the landowner, who, it appears did not approach you in an appropriate manner, you reacted to the situation evolving around you.

The incident was not witnessed.  The thrashed back of the landowner could have been achieved anywhere, for all you know his wife gave him a smacking the night before.

Had you not admitted giving him a good hiding on a public forum there would have been absolutely nothing to pursue a case with.

Sandwich short of a picnic and if you find it don't eat it on private land !!
		
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Agree with this basically! Well said. 

BUT surely OP must have had SOME idea the "land" in question was owned by someone??? It would help to know more information i.e. was this "common land", or forestry, or land that has a "path" across it as opposed to a Bridlepath proper, or what???? It sounds rather like it was part of some private estate, where possibly usage has been established through the years without necessarily any public right of way being established?? But more info would be helpful. 

The male in this instance may well allege assault, but then in mitigation the OP was in a situation where she was on her own - the man was holding on to her horse's bridle after all said and done, and so perhaps can justify her actions by saying the man was aggressive/threatening in his manner and she acted in that way because she felt he might attack her. Never mind the issue of alleged trespass, what happened between the two of them was perhaps explainable on this basis???

An interesting one for the lawyers to sort out. Methinks OP would be well advised to consult a legal beagle as she may well have a defence even if she was "trespassing" on this occasion.


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## bonny (3 October 2012)

patterdale said:



			Same as LL. 

If you got home to find a stranger sunbathing in your garden, who when questioned said sorry, I'll just leave, would you be happy to leave if at that??! I'm guessing not. 

You were trespassing, and if you hit him hard enough to make welts appear through clothing you must have been having a good go. 

If I found someone riding through our land, particularly after all this rain, I'd probably ask you what the f you are doing. 

No sympathy I'm afraid. You should apologise.
		
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I'm amazed at the number of people who think it's the same as someone being in your house or garden.  It's nothing of the sort, everyone has the right to privacy in their house or surroundings, land is completly different and should be available for everyone to use. It works in scotland so why not in england too ?


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## martlin (3 October 2012)

errrm, OP, are you mad or something?
You were caught trespassing, asked for details so the land owner can bring a claim against you, refused, clouted him with your whip repeatedly for a good measure and you want HIM to apologise to you?
Jeez


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## PandorasJar (3 October 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			Sandwich short of a picnic and if you find it don't eat it on private land !!
		
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## scarymare (3 October 2012)

WOW

I am truly gobsmacked.  OP you need to firstly check that apologising isn't admitting guilt and then if not eat some seriously humble pie.  Do you realise that if it gets to court you could (and in Scotland almost certainly would) go to jail.  From the tone of your opening post I don't think you'd last five minutes......


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## AMW (3 October 2012)

ester said:



			see I'm not sure about that because I am not convinced it would take a whole lot of force for someone to remove me from my 14.2 if they wanted to...
		
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I have to agree with this, many years someone did grab hold of my 14.2 and sexually assaulted me. I will not go into details, but to defend myself I struck him with my whip. The police caught him and he was sentenced for a year, he was a known offender.
So perhaps the OP had right to feel threatened.


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## camilla4 (3 October 2012)

bonny said:



			I'm amazed at the number of people who think it's the same as someone being in your house or garden.  It's nothing of the sort, everyone has the right to privacy in their house or surroundings, land is completly different and should be available for everyone to use. It works in scotland so why not in england too ?
		
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But Bonny, whatever you or anyone else thinks the law *ought* to be is irrelevant.  The point is that there is such a thing as private ownership of land and that  applies to open fields and farm land just as much as it does to houses and gardens.  The rights and wrongs of that situation are a separate issue.


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## Wheels (3 October 2012)

Sorry bonny but you are way off, I have a small amount of land where I keep my horses and I certainly wouldn't want random people wandering about on it. Most of the people who own land around here would let you ride on their land if you asked but it is not on just going on somebody's land. 

How well does this really work in scotland? I'm sure the general public think it works well, the landowners may not think it works so well


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## Elsiecat (3 October 2012)

If someone touched my horses reins in an aggressive manor I'd have battered them with my whip as well.

You were wrong on his land, you were wrong to be sarcastic and he was wrong overreacting. 

None of you are winners in this case.


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## CatStew (3 October 2012)

Hmm.

Although OP was in the wrong and shouldn't have been tresspassing, I do think the land owner reacted harshly towards OP after she stated she would leave immediately and not return.  I wouldn't have wanted to give my details to a stranger who was acting in an agressive manner either regardless of the situation.

I don't think I would have hit him with a whip though, but I think both of my horses would have pulled away from him in a panic (if he was as agressive as OP says he was) so I wouldn't have needed to.  And I do find it curious that you were able to hit him so hard that it left welts, and I don't understand how he was able to keep up with you after you 'gallopped off' or did I misunderstand that bit?

I would have spoken to the police immediately after the incident occurred, as for all you knew, he may not have been the land owner at all and somebody up to no good.

Moving forwards, seek legal advice immediately and don't post too much information on an open internet forum?  Could go against you if things do go further.


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## bonny (3 October 2012)

camilla4 said:



			But Bonny, whatever you or anyone else thinks the law *ought* to be is irrelevant.  The point is that there is such a thing as private ownership of land and that  applies to open fields and farm land just as much as it does to houses and gardens.  The rights and wrongs of that situation are a separate issue.
		
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Err, most people on this thread are arguing that the OP was in the wrong for trespassing and so brought it on herself. I'm not even sure there is such a law anyway or that it should be relevant but alot of people are defending the man on that grounds.


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## indie999 (3 October 2012)

JANANI said:



			I would have told the police that you were terrified for your life and thought that something really bad was going to happen. I would have stated that it was self defense. 

Then in future do not ride on peoples land unless you have permission from the land owner!!
		
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I dont think the police are going to make it up and are only following the law. 
I agree NEVER ride on anyones fields unless they gave you permission to do so or ROW for horses etc. Ok you realise the error on this. However my first reaction as being out in the middle of now where its easy to get lost and being a lone woman I was always only too aware in case someone jumped out on me and if this had happened and I was in fear for my life as how do I know he isnt a rapist etc I would have done the same and fought him off so I could get away from him if he terrified me for being so aggressive. If you never made this clear to police when they questioned you you do need to go and get a solicitor OR if you go to the session they are suggesting you apologise and explain why you struck him as he terrified you for your own personal safety.But as you never did this you dont have a leg to stand on, you really cant change your story now. BUT the guy had no right to ask for your name and address legally you did not have to give this to him, he has no power on this matter.


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## camilla4 (3 October 2012)

bonny said:



			Err, most people on this thread are arguing that the OP was in the wrong for trespassing and so brought it on herself. I'm not even sure there is such a law anyway or that it should be relevant but alot of people are defending the man on that grounds.
		
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Firstly, there is such a law.

Secondly, I didn't mention anything about the man's action being or not being justified.  I simply pointed out that private ownership is private ownership, whether it is of large areas of land, homes or gardens so your assertion that they are "different" is wrong.


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## bonny (3 October 2012)

Wheels said:



			Sorry bonny but you are way off, I have a small amount of land where I keep my horses and I certainly wouldn't want random people wandering about on it. Most of the people who own land around here would let you ride on their land if you asked but it is not on just going on somebody's land. 

How well does this really work in scotland? I'm sure the general public think it works well, the landowners may not think it works so well
		
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It works fine and in reality lots of random people wouldn't want to wander around on your small piece of land but it does mean that we can ride anywhere that we want to.....


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## ester (3 October 2012)

I always thought trespass was a civil matter. 

fwiw I don't think either party behaved appropriately but can understand that the OP might be un nerved by the situation.. the bloke could have been anyone as far as she was concerned not necessarily the landowner and perhaps some guidance on how best to deal with lone females might not go amiss there either.


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## bonny (3 October 2012)

camilla4 said:



			Firstly, there is such a law.

Secondly, I didn't mention anything about the man's action being or not being justified.  I simply pointed out that private ownership is private ownership, whether it is of large areas of land, homes or gardens so your assertion that they are "different" is wrong.
		
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Clearly there is a big difference between people's houses and vast acres of land.


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## AMW (3 October 2012)

this is the Scottish Countryside Access Code.

http://www.snh.gov.uk/docs/B621366.pdf

http://www.snh.gov.uk/docs/A309336.pdf

and yes it does work well, it doesnt mean you can ride roughshod wherever you want but the key is to be considerate and responsible for your own actions.
I have just had a lovely hack through a local estate, we checked with the gamekeeper and there are certain tracks off limit during the shooting season. This hack takes me through a couple of farms, I am polite and considerate, I would say the majority of riders are,  but up here its taken for granted you can access these areas, there arent many riders in the area.


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## camilla4 (3 October 2012)

bonny said:



			Clearly there is a big difference between people's houses and vast acres of land.
		
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Not when it comes to trespassing, there isn't.  My property is my property and I would expect that fact to be respected as I respect the property of others - whatever the size!!


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## mightymammoth (3 October 2012)

elsiecat said:



			If someone touched my horses reins in an aggressive manor I'd have battered them with my whip as well.

You were wrong on his land, you were wrong to be sarcastic and he was wrong overreacting. 

None of you are winners in this case.
		
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Rightly or wrongly so would I. You were in the wrong going on private property, sounds like he overreacted but perhaps he has had a lot of trouble with people going on his land etc and seeing you was the straw that broke the camels back.

If it was me I would go to the meeting be gracious and apologise and hope he doesn't take it further.


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## scarymare (3 October 2012)

bonny said:



			It works fine and in reality lots of random people wouldn't want to wander around on your small piece of land but it does mean that we can ride anywhere that we want to.....
		
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Yes but even then most of us don't.  I certainly do the polite thing and ask for permission first.  Even though I don't technically need it.


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## ccolouredccob (3 October 2012)

The land we have around the yard belongs to the YO so I'm fortunate in the fact that I don't have to ask about fields I hack round. I would never ride on a field that I hadn't asked about. So I think he was right to confront you but there was no need for him to be so aggressive and frighten you!! I would have done exactly the same as you in that situation.
I'd seek legal advice asap.


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## indie999 (3 October 2012)

bonny said:



			I'm amazed at the number of people who think it's the same as someone being in your house or garden.  It's nothing of the sort, everyone has the right to privacy in their house or surroundings, land is completly different and should be available for everyone to use. It works in scotland so why not in england too ?
		
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NO WAY! We had someone kept dumping their grass cuttings(a whole row of houses) just chucking over their weeds(horses and other animals in the field). What a cheek, I had to go and ask them if they would like me to put their cuttings over their fence.  I would never ride on someones fields and if their are crops etc growing that is money the farmer lost for every seedling that is destroyed(horses go a long way and trash fields even the edges). It will all add up£££. Dog walkers coming off the paths and just s...tting  dogs everywhere(small children play in the field how would it be if I could just walk my dog over someones front garden). 
Bonny can I come and park my caravan in your back garden? If land is so readily available in Scotland.I might tether a few horses too.


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## Hackie (3 October 2012)

There really are two issues here.

Firstly, the tresspassing, for which the OP apologised and tried to rectify by leaving.  Hey, everyone makes mistakes, it really wan't the end of the world.

Secondly, the assault, which was self defence for the man preventing her from leaving.  Lets face it, if he hadn't grabbed and held the horse, she wouldn't have hit him with her whip.

I don't see from her original post that she would have hit him in response to being told she was tresspassing.  I also don't see how by saying sorry, and she was leaving and would not be coming back, she was being sarcastic or rude, as some people have suggested?


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## Amymay (3 October 2012)

I admitted I ought not to have been there but there are no signs.
		
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What signs were you expecting?  Unless it's otherwise stated, land is usually private.


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## Antw23uk (3 October 2012)

The reason the police are inviting you to this meeting is so they dont have to deal with all the paper work involved it they were actually following the book. Its so that dont get caught up in the petty stuff (thats the theory anyway) and can concentrate on real police work.

You missed a trick when the police first turned up. You should have said 'You feared for your life'

Too late now but perhaps drop that into the conversation if its not going your way and you dont think you are going to get away with this.

Very importantly you say 'You feared for your life'

Good luck and next time stick to bridleways


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## Sarah1 (3 October 2012)

OP - the wrongs & the rights are irrelevant IMO as the incident has already occurred and no doubt you have learned a valuable lesson from this - what you need to do now before any apologies etc is to seek qualified legal advice.

To the people who have replied to this (agreeing or otherwise), what I'm interested to know is if you found yourself in a similar situation, ie you strayed onto private land & the landowner became very irrate and aggressive towards you and your horse, what would you do?  And no replies of 'it wouldn't happen to me' please as everyone makes mistakes occasionally!

I'm not actually sure how I would deal with it sitting here now in the cold light of day but I think in the heat of the moment if I was genuinely scared for my safety, honestly, I'd do whatever I felt I had to to get away.

I would probably also have gone to the police immediately...

Also - to AMW, that must have been terrible for you - hugs   People like him should be strung up by their balls


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## bonny (3 October 2012)

indie999 said:



			NO WAY! We had someone kept dumping their grass cuttings(a whole row of houses) just chucking over their weeds(horses and other animals in the field). What a cheek, I had to go and ask them if they would like me to put their cuttings over their fence.  I would never ride on someones fields and if their are crops etc growing that is money the farmer lost for every seedling that is destroyed(horses go a long way and trash fields even the edges). It will all add up£££. Dog walkers coming off the paths and just s...tting  dogs everywhere(small children play in the field how would it be if I could just walk my dog over someones front garden). 
Bonny can I come and park my caravan in your back garden? If land is so readily available in Scotland.I might tether a few horses too.
		
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Talk about missing the pont ! In scotland gardens are DIFFERENT ! All other land everyone has free access to apart from school or hospital grounds.


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## MerrySherryRider (3 October 2012)

bonny said:



			Clearly there is a big difference between people's houses and vast acres of land.
		
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The hoards of dog walkers have a lovely time letting their dogs foul the huge meadow at the back of my house.
Then the farmer makes his hay.

I don't buy my hay from there.


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## scarymare (3 October 2012)

bonny said:



			Talk about missing the pont ! In scotland gardens are DIFFERENT ! All other land everyone has free access to apart from school or hospital grounds.
		
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Not true.  We have had Joe Public asking to walk through our garden and when the council lady came she found in their favour.  This code is run by people in Ediburgh who just don't understand the concept of rural privacy.  Anyway, this is all irrelevant as this happened in England.


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## Amymay (3 October 2012)

Also OP - as someone who states that they hunt, how can you be so oblivious to what is public and what is private land????


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## Sugar_and_Spice (3 October 2012)

I think its important to remember that although we view our horses as part of the family, in law they are possessions. By holding the rein the OP wasn't prevented from leaving and she wasn't assaulted. I'm assuming that the OP doesn't have a disability that prevents her getting off the horse and walking away. In being harsh with the rein the farmer would maybe argue he was trying to restrain a frightened animal (despite it being his shouting that caused the fright) so I don't think you'd have any luck with an animal cruelty charge. You'd have been able to walk away and charge him with theft if he didn't give the horse back.

As for self defence, I'm reasonably sure that someone has to do something to you first,eg shut you in a room, grab you, point a gun at you, or something. I don't think you can attack someone because you felt threatened and then say it was self defence. 

OP I think the police *are* being sympathetic to you which is why they're trying to get you out of this mess the easiest way. I'm guessing both you and the farmer have learned your lessons from this incident and its probably not in the public interest to prosecute either if you. I think the farmer probably acknowledges his part in this which is why he's been pursuaded to hold off pressing charges. The facts are you did assault him, he didn't assault you, the rest is opinion. 

If you work think of your job. Is it one where you'd be automatically fired for having a criminal record, especially assault? With how horse riders are thought of in general as being rich and posh and above everyone else etc, I don't fancy your chances of any sympathy from an average jury, especially since you were riding where you shouldn't have been. Had you been on a bridleway I think people may view it differently.

I understand exactly why you're upset and why you reacted as you did, unfortunately that doesn't make it ok in law. I hope this can all be sorted out without you getting prosecuted and that you can put it behind you soon.


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## Maesfen (3 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			The whole point is that those of us with no sympathy wouldn't be in that situation in the first place, because we don't think its ok to trespass.
		
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Exactly, simples.


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## Serephin (3 October 2012)

I really don't see how he can bring charges against the OP - there are no other witnesses, its his word against hers.  There is no proof.  The supposed welts could have been caused elsewhere by anyone.  Where is the proof here?????

He is angry and is trying to punish you, but he has not a leg to stand on unless you admit that you hit him.  Even then, it was because you feared for your safety, so justifiable IMO.

He sounds like a right tit.


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## RLS (3 October 2012)

the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 allows the public RESPONSIBLE access to walk/ cycle/ ride on private land. It does not mean that people can tramp about anywhere or in any mannner they like. There are certain exemptions from these access rights, which are designed to protect landowners'/ managers' land and property. 'Responsible' means not letting your dog poo everywhere/ damage crops/ livestock/ ride a horse in crops/ on very wet ground/ within the curtilage of a house/ caravan/ be considerate of other users/  care for your environment. A whole host of stuff! But in general I would say that the LRA does work.
That aside, no piece of legislation justifies anyone behaving in an aggressive manner towards you.


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## Patterdale (3 October 2012)

Bonny you are WAY off!!

The countryside is not a playground, it is a place of work and you should respect that. 
Farmers do not slave endlessly maintaining and purchasing land for you to play ponies on because you feel that you are entitled. 

Get real.


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## martlin (3 October 2012)

RLS said:



			the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 allows the public RESPONSIBLE access to walk/ cycle/ ride on private land. It does not mean that people can tramp about anywhere or in any mannner they like. There are certain exemptions from these access rights, which are designed to protect landowners'/ managers' land and property. 'Responsible' means not letting your dog poo everywhere/ damage crops/ livestock/ ride a horse in crops/ on very wet ground/ within the curtilage of a house/ caravan/ be considerate of other users/  care for your environment. A whole host of stuff! But in general I would say that the LRA does work.
That aside, no piece of legislation justifies anyone behaving in an aggressive manner towards you.
		
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No proof, you say? Oh, hang on, she just admitted it on an open forum


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## MerrySherryRider (3 October 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			To the people who have replied to this (agreeing or otherwise), what I'm interested to know is if you found yourself in a similar situation, ie you strayed onto private land & the landowner became very irrate and aggressive towards you and your horse, what would you do?  And no replies of 'it wouldn't happen to me' please as everyone makes mistakes occasionally!

I'm not actually sure how I would deal with it sitting here now in the cold light of day but I think in the heat of the moment if I was genuinely scared for my safety, honestly, I'd do whatever I felt I had to to get away.
		
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It has happened to me. Genuine mistake as the bridlepath sign disappeared at the edge of a field, so I followed the tracks of a previous horse's hoof. 
Came to a padlocked gate where the track met a farm yard in the middle of nowhere. Next thing, 3 dogs and a very irate farmers wife came running up,and the farmer was charging across the fields towards me.
 Dogs were jumping at the gate, woman was shouting that I was trespassing etc. In reply, I told her how sorry I was, I was unfamiliar with the route and told her where I'd got lost etc. She calmed down and was lovely, opened the gate and allowed me to take a short cut through the yard. She called her husband off which was fortunate as the poor man then had to jump in his landrover to chase some quad bikers who were riding through his fields. 

Just being reasonable, acknowledging that you're in the wrong and offering to return the way you came is better than being antagonistic. Of course farmers are going to be angry but accept the telling off and learn from it.


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## DipseyDeb (3 October 2012)

Flummoxed said:



			If there were no signs suggesting that this was a right of way, you were committing trespass. You don't have any sympathy from me.
		
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Seriously??? the OP appologised and said she would leave, hardly think the land owner's actions were justified!!!!  OP I don't know how to advise you, other than you acted in self defense because you felt threatened by this man.


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## Serephin (3 October 2012)

martlin said:



			No proof, you say? Oh, hang on, she just admitted it on an open forum  

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Do you really think they will scour the internet for an admission of guilt. Really.  I have no idea who the OP is, do you?


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## Sarah1 (3 October 2012)

horserider said:



			It has happened to me. Genuine mistake as the bridlepath sign disappeared at the edge of a field, so I followed the tracks of a previous horse's hoof. 
Came to a padlocked gate where the track met a farm yard in the middle of nowhere. Next thing, 3 dogs and a very irate farmers wife came running up,and the farmer was charging across the fields towards me.
 Dogs were jumping at the gate, woman was shouting that I was trespassing etc. In reply, I told her how sorry I was, I was unfamiliar with the route and told her where I'd got lost etc. She calmed down and was lovely, opened the gate and allowed me to take a short cut through the yard. She called her husband off which was fortunate as the poor man then had to jump in his landrover to chase some quad bikers who were riding through his fields. 

Just being reasonable, acknowledging that you're in the wrong and offering to return the way you came is better than being antagonistic. Of course farmers are going to be angry but accept the telling off and learn from it.
		
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So you apologised and they accepted that and that was the end of it BUT had her husband been the one who had collared you and started shouting and swearing and grabbing your horse despite you asking him to let go how would you have reacted?


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## Maesfen (3 October 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			To the people who have replied to this (agreeing or otherwise), what I'm interested to know is if you found yourself in a similar situation, ie you strayed onto private land & the landowner became very irrate and aggressive towards you and your horse, what would you do?  And no replies of 'it wouldn't happen to me' please as everyone makes mistakes occasionally!

:
		
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TBH, if you're local to the place in question (theoretically)  no, it shouldn't happen at all because you should know your neighbours and their boundaries; certainly in a rural area you should, it's all part and parcel of being neighbourly.  It is different if you have travelled to another area and don't know it but then you wouldn't go somewhere that wasn't signed as a ROW for horses it stands to sense that if it's not known then you don't use it without permission.
I'm sure there are many like me who can name each farm and their boundaries (probably the farmer's name too) for many miles around us; it's not being clever it's knowing your boundaries.


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## martlin (3 October 2012)

Serephin said:



			Do you really think they will scour the internet for an admission of guilt. Really.  I have no idea who the OP is, do you?  



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You might be surprised  
No, I have no idea who OP is, but it's only because I don't WANT to find out. It's a big and popular forum and surprising number of things just come out in the wash.


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## ester (3 October 2012)

horserider said:



			. 

Just being reasonable, acknowledging that you're in the wrong and offering to return the way you came is better than being antagonistic. Of course farmers are going to be angry but accept the telling off and learn from it.
		
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but the OP did apologise and offer to leave immediately  so where's the difference?


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## Serephin (3 October 2012)

martlin said:



			You might be surprised  
No, I have no idea who OP is, but it's only because I don't WANT to find out. It's a big and popular forum and surprising number of things just come out in the wash.
		
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maybe if she had left him for dead.


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## martlin (3 October 2012)

As an aside, I'm just wondering... if the land owner was female, would it be justifiable to smack her with a whip, too? Or if the rider was male? Would the rider be justified in feeling threatened and lashing out?


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## Sugar_and_Spice (3 October 2012)

Sarah1 to answer your question, as a child I would ride wherever took my fancy, as long as I thought I couldn't be seen and/or there were already hoof prints there. If approached by an irate farmer I'd smile and say a friendly hello can I help you? I'd appologise for mistaking the track for a bridleway, answer the question of where the horse was kept, when they'd finished ranting I'd dismount and lead my horse off their land by the safest/quickest/crop-avoiding route available. Yes its terrifying, particularly when they follow you back to the yard in a car still ranting, but you can't be arrested for making a mistake and at no point did I ever feel the need to bash someone. 

On one occasion, in a deserted wood, where I was accosted by a dodgy looking member of the public who couldn't realistically have been taking a random stroll there, I did quietly unbuckle my end of the reins with the intention of dropping them and pushing the bridle off over the horses head if he grabbed the rein, to enable me to escape. I wouldn't hit someone with my whip unless they grabbed me (or attempted to). However frightened you are, its important not to make the first move and therefore start the fight which you're hoping to avoid.


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## nixxyz (3 October 2012)

bonny said:



			Talk about missing the pont ! In scotland gardens are DIFFERENT ! All other land everyone has free access to apart from school or hospital grounds.
		
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No, Not all land is free access. You can be done for trespassing if you cause damage to crops etc, although this has to be proved first. For example.. a neigbouring farm to my OH had just cut a wheat field, that night a group of dirt bikes trashed the field knackering all the unbaled straw. Farmer caught the lads in the act and had them charged. However said lads then decided to get their own back by trying to set my OH's combine on fire the next day. So your really only aloud on land if your not going to harm it. 

Back to the OP, yes she was wrong to be on private land, but the landowner was wrong to be so aggressive.. If it were me being faced with a man in that manor i would have kicked him then cantered off and promptly reported it to the police. ( Yes i  have ridden accross private land before, got lost in a forest near Thirsk and had to cross a few empty fields to get to the road. Turning back was not an option as it was getting dark and i was miles from the last turning. So mistakes do happen. I did however go back in the car the next day and apologise to the farmer, but i ended up with permission to ride their in future) 
OP please, please get some legal help as its your word against his and it could all get rather messy. Good luck tho, maybe go round your local farms and seek permission next time


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## PandorasJar (3 October 2012)

martlin said:



			You might be surprised  
No, I have no idea who OP is, but it's only because I don't WANT to find out. It's a big and popular forum and surprising number of things just come out in the wash.
		
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It's amazing how common it is. All you have to do is scroll back through previous threads of this ilk to see how quickly the OP is recognised.


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## MerrySherryRider (3 October 2012)

ester said:



			but the OP did apologise and offer to leave immediately  so where's the difference?
		
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 Where's the difference ? 

One apology led to an escalation, the other led to conciliation.


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## Clodagh (3 October 2012)

An anti grabbed my reins out hunting once and I was petrified and walloped him one, the landowner really shouldn't have done what he did either, the trespass doesn't excuse intimidating behaviour. (I only had to hit anti once, it wa sa proper hunting crop).

So in Scotland are you allowed to walk/ride/cycle/whatever all over arable fields and everything? I thought it only applied to uncultivated land. Thank God we don't farm in Scotland in that case!


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## Sarah1 (3 October 2012)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			Sarah1 to answer your question, as a child I would ride wherever took my fancy, as long as I thought I couldn't be seen and/or there were already hoof prints there. If approached by an irate farmer I'd smile and say a friendly hello can I help you? I'd appologise for mistaking the track for a bridleway, answer the question of where the horse was kept, when they'd finished ranting I'd dismount and lead my horse off their land by the safest/quickest/crop-avoiding route available. Yes its terrifying, particularly when they follow you back to the yard in a car still ranting, but you can't be arrested for making a mistake and at no point did I ever feel the need to bash someone. 

On one occasion, in a deserted wood, where I was accosted by a dodgy looking member of the public who couldn't realistically have been taking a random stroll there, I did quietly unbuckle my end of the reins with the intention of dropping them and pushing the bridle off over the horses head if he grabbed the rein, to enable me to escape. I wouldn't hit someone with my whip unless they grabbed me (or attempted to). However frightened you are, its important not to make the first move and therefore start the fight which you're hoping to avoid.
		
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OP states she apologised and said she would leave immediately & landowner grabbed her horse & would not let go despite repeated requests...

I'm not saying OP was right or wrong but people often do strange things when their adrenaline is up and they are very scared...


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## amage (3 October 2012)

Haven't read all replies but YOU trespassed, YOU hit someone hard enough to leave welts on them (and that takes fair force) and you think you were assaulted because he held your horses rein....GET OVER YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!


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## Bikerchickone (3 October 2012)

In your situation I would go to the meeting and apologise for being on his land and for overreacting due to being frightened when he caught hold of the horse. It may well not be what you want to do but I'd imagine it will put an end to this far more quickly than arguing the toss about what's fair and who is right or wrong. 

Of course if you want to fight it go ahead and get a solicitor involved but that means the whole situation will be hanging over your head for longer. Two wrongs don't make a right but you were wrong in the first place.


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## TigerTail (3 October 2012)

Hmm Id have called 999 I think - stressing the point I was a sole female and a man was behaving aggressively towards me and preventing me from leaving. Mightve tried to ride into him to get him to drop the reins, if I felt he was threatening the horse or me physically Id've done what you did OP.

You can only explain you were very frightened and despite apologising the man had kept hold of the horse and prevented you being able to get away....


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## MerrySherryRider (3 October 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			So you apologised and they accepted that and that was the end of it BUT had her husband been the one who had collared you and started shouting and swearing and grabbing your horse despite you asking him to let go how would you have reacted?
		
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The last thing you should do in an explosive situation, is escalate the aggression. 
Reduce the adrenaline by being reasonable, calm and conciliatory.


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## cattysmith (3 October 2012)

I haven't read the entire thread, so I don't know what other posters have been saying.

However I think what you did was a foolish, stupid and very irresponsible thing to do. This type of behaviour gives other riders a bad name. You are lucky this is not going to court yet. To expect an apology from a man who you assaulted so hard that you left marking on his skin is completely unreasonable.

In all reality even though he had his hands on the horse's reins he wasn't actually "assaulting" the horse as you put it.  He had his hands on the reins because he wanted your details because you were trespassing on his land.

I feel that we aren't getting the entire story here either.


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## Littlelegs (3 October 2012)

Op didn't apologise immediately, her first reply when questioned what she was doing was 'riding' which is sarcastic, rather than apologetic in my book. And for those who say land is different to homes & gardens, how would you feel if I started riding round your horses fields, or you found me randomly using your arenas? Take it that would be ok cos lands different. 
  Ester- no, I don't feel threatened by men, even a few men on a 14.2, it would take some doing to harm me, & I'm far from hefty. When my 14.2 was recovering from an injury, she was restricted to walk & on box rest. I was hacking on a bridleway at dusk when a man appeared out of a bush & jogged up behind me. I couldn't race off without harming her legs further. The path was wide enough that there was no need for him to get close, quite apart from the fact normal men don't wait in bushes till lone women appear. I just waited till he got next to her quarters, then asked her to move them over, sending the guy flying. Likewise if he'd been at her shoulder holding the reins I would have used her shoulder to shove him. But very different to ops situation, just cos someone's angry that you're trespassing it doesn't follow they are intent on doing physical harm to you.


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## springer1021 (3 October 2012)

You shouldn't have been on the land on the first place, it's up to you to find out if it's a Bridleway/Byway before you ride on it.

However, the land owner shouldn't have reacted how he did but the chances are he has had problems with people riding on his land before and you were the straw that broke the camel back.

I would contact the police and say you did apologise for riding on the land at the time and you wish to offer your apologies again, however you are not prepard to attend any meeting without seeking legal advice.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (3 October 2012)

Sarah1, she wouldn't give her details, that's the difference. The farmer would have wanted to know if there was any offence he could report her for, I presume, so he needed to know who she was. She was sarcastic when asked why she was there, then refused to say who she was (and was perhaps none too friendly about it? Judging by the attitude shown in the first post). It's her manner that fueled the farmers anger. If she wasn't happy to give her details to him she could have suggested he phone the police and she'd give her details to them. The OP was tresspassing. Trying to wriggle out of it was what lead to it all getting out of hand.


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## Sarah1 (3 October 2012)

horserider said:



			The last thing you should do in an explosive situation, is escalate the aggression. 
Reduce the adrenaline by being reasonable, calm and conciliatory.
		
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We're all well aware of what you SHOULD do but what people actually do in these sort of situations is sometimes not entirely rational - adrenaline is a funny thing!


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## MadisonBelle (3 October 2012)

Hackie said:



			There really are two issues here.

Firstly, the tresspassing, for which the OP apologised and tried to rectify by leaving.  Hey, everyone makes mistakes, it really wan't the end of the world.

Secondly, the assault, which was self defence for the man preventing her from leaving.  Lets face it, if he hadn't grabbed and held the horse, she wouldn't have hit him with her whip.

I don't see from her original post that she would have hit him in response to being told she was tresspassing.  I also don't see how by saying sorry, and she was leaving and would not be coming back, she was being sarcastic or rude, as some people have suggested?
		
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This exactly! Jeez some of you sound as scary as this man!!!! What happened to good old humanity and COMPASSION!! Taking her word for it that she was sorry? Had made a genuine mistake and wasn't being AROGANT as some of you seem to suggest....... Blimey.....back off to CR.......


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## ester (3 October 2012)

horserider said:



			Where's the difference ? 

One apology led to an escalation, the other led to conciliation.
		
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but that's because there are two people involved in the altercation and the result depends equally on the other person as well as your responses. From the reports there is no difference in what you and the OP did (well prior to the whipping!) , but a difference in what the other party did.. that isn't necessarily the OPs fault.


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## Sarah1 (3 October 2012)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			Sarah1, she wouldn't give her details, that's the difference. The farmer would have wanted to know if there was any offence he could report her for, I presume, so he needed to know who she was. She was sarcastic when asked why she was there, then refused to say who she was (and was perhaps none too friendly about it? Judging by the attitude shown in the first post). It's her manner that fueled the farmers anger. If she wasn't happy to give her details to him she could have suggested he phone the police and she'd give her details to them. The OP was tresspassing. Trying to wriggle out of it was what lead to it all getting out of hand.
		
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True, she was and yes she probably was a bit sarcastic but it doesn't stop her being scared when things started going tits up!

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with OP I just genuinely wondered what others would do - I wondered, if people answer honestly, how many people would _really_ have kept a cool head?  I'm a fairly tough cookie and it takes a lot to rattle me but being totally 100% honest the same situation would possibly have brought about the same reaction from me - though in fairness I'd like to think my inital response wouldn't have come across as arrogant or sarcastic.


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## ester (3 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Op didn't apologise immediately, her first reply when questioned what she was doing was 'riding' which is sarcastic, rather than apologetic in my book. And for those who say land is different to homes & gardens, how would you feel if I started riding round your horses fields, or you found me randomly using your arenas? Take it that would be ok cos lands different. I didn't read it as sarcastic per se, I think that is very hard to tell on a forum surely? it was the right answer to a question although 'lost' might have been better had she known it was the landowner  Ester- no, I don't feel threatened by men, even a few men on a 14.2 it would take some doing to harm me, & I'm far from hefty. When my 14.2 was recovering from an injury, she was restricted to walk & on box rest. I was hacking on a bridleway at dusk when a man appeared out of a bush & jogged up behind me. I couldn't race off without harming her legs further. The path was wide enough that there was no need for him to get close, quite apart from the fact normal men don't wait in bushes till lone women appear. I just waited till he got next to her quarters, then asked her to move them over, sending the guy flying I don't entirely understand this situation.. I certainly don't feel threatened by men either... but I wouldn't be comfortable if they choose to hold onto my horse while they ranted at me though, . Likewise if he'd been at her shoulder holding the reins I would have used her shoulder to shove him (I'm pondering whether F's do not barge lessons would be forgotten or not if I asked him to!). But very different to ops situation, just cos someone's angry that you're trespassing it doesn't follow they are intent on doing physical harm to you, no it isn't but it is likely to make you concerned that they might and really was never going to be the best way to rectify the situation

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I wouldn't have whipped anyone though! more likely just sat and waited tbh!


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## MerrySherryRider (3 October 2012)

ester said:



			but that's because there are two people involved in the altercation and the result depends equally on the other person as well as your responses. From the reports there is no difference in what you and the OP did (well prior to the whipping!) , but a difference in what the other party did.. that isn't necessarily the OPs fault.
		
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Well unless the incident was video'd, we'll never know for sure. However, two people could say the exact words in a different way which would get a different response, so of course there's a difference.


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## BWa (3 October 2012)

Op hit someone with a whip, more than once and harder enough to leave marks! No sympathy from me either. I would have got off my horse and let it jump on his head!


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## Lanky Loll (3 October 2012)

Did anybody else think that the reason the landowner asked where OP was from COULD be because this is a persistent problem with OP and other riders? He may not of been able to catch previous trespassers but have wanted to locate where they were coming from to put at stop to it? Can't help thinking myself that it was a fairly reasonable question.

And yes OP I do think you were out of order  and incredibly arrogant if as seems to be the case you were riding on land that wasn't an ROW and thought it was just OK.  
At the end of the day you both exploded a situation that could have been handled very differently and that YOU put yourself in.


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## Littlelegs (3 October 2012)

Re the sarcasm, I mean from the man's pov, it was obvious she was riding, so intended or not I can see why that reply would come across as rude, rather than apologetic. 
  Re the situation I was in, I prob didn't explain it well. But basically being approached by a random wierdo at dusk. He'd clearly been waiting in a bush because behind them is a solid fence. He approached me, so I just used horses weight to push him away. Point I was trying to make is that in the same situation on foot I would have been intimidated. But even on a 14.2 I didn't feel threatened as I was physically at an advantage. On foot, even a skinny average height male could be threatening if they chose, but with even a few hundred kg of horse, lone female or not, a raging lunatic wouldn't bother me.


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## siennamum (3 October 2012)

horserider said:



			It has happened to me. Genuine mistake as the bridlepath sign disappeared at the edge of a field, so I followed the tracks of a previous horse's hoof. 
Came to a padlocked gate where the track met a farm yard in the middle of nowhere. Next thing, 3 dogs and a very irate farmers wife came running up,and the farmer was charging across the fields towards me.
 Dogs were jumping at the gate, woman was shouting that I was trespassing etc. In reply, I told her how sorry I was, I was unfamiliar with the route and told her where I'd got lost etc. She calmed down and was lovely, opened the gate and allowed me to take a short cut through the yard. She called her husband off which was fortunate as the poor man then had to jump in his landrover to chase some quad bikers who were riding through his fields. 

Just being reasonable, acknowledging that you're in the wrong and offering to return the way you came is better than being antagonistic. Of course farmers are going to be angry but accept the telling off and learn from it.
		
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Also happened to me. Was following a track which I was allowed to ride on, got turned around, track led me onto a yard owned by farmer (whose wife & kids are in PC) I apologised profusely, offered to retrace our steps to get back onto correct track (through 2 fields) she was ranting at me about her bean crop and kicked me and  child on pony out onto a major A road which was extremely unsafe to ride along. Really nasty experience.


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## Hoofprints in the Snow (3 October 2012)

BWa said:



			Op hit someone with a whip, more than once and harder enough to leave marks! No sympathy from me either. I would have got off my horse and let it jump on his head!
		
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 Did you read this before hitting the submit button LOL


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## fburton (3 October 2012)

Hedgewitch13 said:



			No wonder the land owner went to the Police. Just accept that you need to apologise for your actions... being somewhere you shouldn't have been and for assaulting him with a whip!
		
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Or if someone does anticipate needing to use a whip to get someone off them, take a padded racing whip which doesn't hurt at all.


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## Mariposa (3 October 2012)

All I have to add is good luck with the session, it sounds like a horrible experience, regardless of who was in the right or wrong.


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## OWLIE185 (3 October 2012)

Some years ago I was riding accross some land with the landowners permission.  A Land Rover came up from behind me and the driver started screaming at me telling me to get off the land and that I had no right to be on it.
I thought at the time that maybe I had crept on to another farmers land.  However when I spoke to the landowner and showed her where I had been she confirmed it was her land.
The farmer that had told me off did not even own the ground.
He apparently used to shoot on her land without permission.  Needless to say when she next saw him he was told never to shoot on her land again and to keep off it.


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## fburton (3 October 2012)

RLS said:



			the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 allows the public RESPONSIBLE access to walk/ cycle/ ride on private land. It does not mean that people can tramp about anywhere or in any mannner they like. There are certain exemptions from these access rights, which are designed to protect landowners'/ managers' land and property. 'Responsible' means not letting your dog poo everywhere/ damage crops/ livestock/ ride a horse in crops/ on very wet ground/ within the curtilage of a house/ caravan/ be considerate of other users/  care for your environment. A whole host of stuff! But in general I would say that the LRA does work.
		
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nixxyz said:



			No, Not all land is free access. You can be done for trespassing if you cause damage to crops etc, although this has to be proved first. For example.. a neigbouring farm to my OH had just cut a wheat field, that night a group of dirt bikes trashed the field knackering all the unbaled straw. Farmer caught the lads in the act and had them charged. However said lads then decided to get their own back by trying to set my OH's combine on fire the next day. So your really only aloud on land if your not going to harm it.
		
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Scots Law seems very sensible on this matter.


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## fburton (3 October 2012)

Clodagh said:



			So in Scotland are you allowed to walk/ride/cycle/whatever all over arable fields and everything?
		
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In theory, yes - _if_ one didn't cause any damage. However, it is highly likely you would. So, no, one is effectively disallowed to cross arable land in use.


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## tafyx (3 October 2012)

How horrid, you must have been really freaked.  he should have just accepted your appology and left it at that, there was no need to do what he did.  obvioulsy you will have to deal with it now but stick up for yourself.  I got caught out once but the man just accepted my appology and i left, promising not to ride in field again.  I dont know why people get so annoyed by it here, its very tempting when you live in the country and most people are sensible about it.  you probably should have gone to the police yourself straight after the incident.  as to hitting him with stick i would have done the same thing!


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## Tonks (3 October 2012)

You were committing trespass and shouldn't have been there. You don't really have a leg to stand on and cannot prove assault like the landowner. Lack of signage is irrelevant.
It does however, sound like an incident that could have been handled better by both you and the landowner in question. Farmers are not known for their social skills!!
It sounds like the police are attempting some form of arbitration so that the landowner will hopefully not take it further, so as not to incur more police time.
As a landowner myself I would be very cross if I found someone on my land - which I have done - I firmly told them this is private land and they are not allowed on it and please go away. 
Let this be a lesson learned - stick to the roads in further or get permission.


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## fburton (3 October 2012)

cattysmith said:



			In all reality even though he had his hands on the horse's reins he wasn't actually "assaulting" the horse as you put it.  He had his hands on the reins because he wanted your details because you were trespassing on his land.
		
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If I stopped a rider and held on to the reins to prevent her from going away while I spoke to her, e.g. to give her a lecturette about road safety after I saw her riding in a way I thought was dangerous, would I be guilty of any offence?


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## fburton (3 October 2012)

Thank your lucky stars it wasn't Nich*las van H**gstraten who got hold of you!


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## lachlanandmarcus (3 October 2012)

fburton said:



			In theory, yes - _if_ one didn't cause any damage. However, it is highly likely you would. So, no, one is effectively disallowed to cross arable land in use.
		
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You are also not supposed (in Scotland) to ride over hay crop grass once it is ankle height or above as at that stage you will damage the crop.  Before that you can. It's a good rule of thumb, which in practice means you can cross it once it is harvested so long as the ground is firm enough for you not to trash the soil and leave great holes in it. 

But it is totally different up here for historical reasons and TBH because the population  is in most places tiny in comparison with the UK per acre. There is the room up here for the land pressure to be less and these leisure activities to be absorbed.  Not the same in densely populated areas of England.


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## Double_choc_lab (3 October 2012)

Haven't read all the replies but either the man was semi naked or you must have hit him with huge force (somewhat more than "reasonable") to leave welts on his back.  Surely if you pulled on the opposite rein and legged your horses bum round into him he would have to let go.

I'm sorry but if that puts you in "fear of your life" better not go out hacking coz its mean on them streets out there!


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## galaxy (3 October 2012)

Lanky Loll said:



			Did anybody else think that the reason the landowner asked where OP was from COULD be because this is a persistent problem with OP and other riders? He may not of been able to catch previous trespassers but have wanted to locate where they were coming from to put at stop to it? Can't help thinking myself that it was a fairly reasonable question.

.
		
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This is exactly what I supect!

From the OPs post I also think her replies sounded very sarcastic and the land owner probably wanted her details to ensure she wouldn't come again.  No he should not have grabbed her reins but I feel the OP was FAR more in the wrong with her actions.  She cant seriously use the "feared for my life" line now.  If she had genuinely felt that way she would have phoned the police and reported him as soon as she had go away.  If someone geniunely thought they were going to be attacked you would do that.

The OP won't be back on this thread as she just wanted to be told she was in the right.  I wonder how she'd feel if riders/cyclists/ walkers decided to go walking around/through her horses fields/hay fields??  We have the odd walker stray off the bridlepath onto our yard sometimes. 90% of them are very rude when told they are not where they should be!


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## Pale Rider (3 October 2012)

I think you did right, you may have been trespassing, but, he has assaulted you, two wrongs don't make a right.
I think you acted in self defence and used such force as was reasonable to effect an escape.
Personally I'd make counter allegations, and prosecute him for assault.


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## alainax (3 October 2012)

I think judging by all the replies its a case of both were in the wrong, she shouldnt have been there, and he should have let her leave. He shouldnt have grabbed her reins, she shouldnt have hit him. 

Unfortunately it was her actions that put her there, and although I agree that I would have freaked out if someone grabbed my reins, if she wasnt in his field it couldnt have happend. 

Im so glad we dont have that worry in Scotland, however its still very much common sense here. Alot of the farmers lock thier gates so thats an easy sign that your not welcome, and many others have special gates for walkers to get through without opening the main one. Also never hack into a field with crops or livestock is nice etiquette


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## jodie3 (3 October 2012)

fburton said:



			Thank your lucky stars it wasn't Nich*las van H**gstraten who got hold of you!
		
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But you wouldn't have been able to get on his land unless you jumped the freezers he used to block the access!!!

The only bit I am confused on is how the OP managed to hit the guy so hard he had weals on his back.  Does that imply he had his back to her and was trying to lead the horse as opposed to holding the rein to stop her going? Just I would have thought if he was facing her and she hit him wouldn't he put his arm up to protect himself and deflect the blows?


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## jendie (3 October 2012)

You were in a horrible situation and I can understand why you were afraid. If he had harmed your horse or your bridle it could have been considered as 'criminal damage', but I guess you have no evidence that harm was caused. He, on the other hand, has shown his injuries to the police and they have probably been photographed and well documented. I'd give him his grovelling apology, promise never to darken his territory again, and avoid the risk of getting a criminal record. The police usually act very sensibly in these cases and they obviously realise you are not a villain. A meeting and a simple apology will put an end to the problem and then you can try to forget all about it.


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## JanetGeorge (3 October 2012)

JANANI said:



			I wouldn't being apologising to him for hitting him either. I would apologise for being on the land but that is it. I would also tell him that if someone was to grab my horse like that I would welt them with my whip. Lone female on my own in the middle of nowhere and some strange man (murderer rapist ????) grabbed my horse to restrain me. Any female in that situation would do the same thing.
		
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Exactly!  Someone DID once grab my horse's reins and tried to drag me off it - it was extremely frightening and I kicked my foot out of the stirrup and kicked him VERY hard in the jaw.  I'm pretty sure it broke - I left him doubled over nursing it and galloped off - and reported the incident to the police when I got home.  (I was about 16 at the time!)  I would NOT have apologised and - strangely enough - he did not report the incident to the police! 

IF you go to the meeting, take a sensible and cool-headed friend at LEAST!  Preferably, take a solicitor.  Apologise for trespass - but nothing else.  You acted in self-defence.  Make tyhe point that the person (who claimed to be the landowner) was agressive and threatening and you were extremely fearful that he would hurt you and/or your horse by his actions!

I remember when a sab grabbed Mark Sprake's (huntsman of the Surrey Union) horse's bridle.  Horse reared over backwards, landed on Mark and Mark ended up with a ruptured kidney.  He could easily have bled to death if a friend hadn't been handy to call an ambulance!


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## Miss L Toe (3 October 2012)

martlin said:



			errrm, OP, are you mad or something?
You were caught trespassing, asked for details so the land owner can bring a claim against you, refused, clouted him with your whip repeatedly for a good measure and you want HIM to apologise to you?
Jeez 

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What sort of a claim does he want to bring ... all he needs do it tell her not to ride on his land, end of.


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## Miss L Toe (3 October 2012)

alainax said:



			I1m so glad we dont have that "tresspass" worry in Scotland, however its still very much common sense here. A lot of the farmers lock their gates so thats an easy sign that your not welcome, and many others have special gates for walkers to get through without opening the main one. Also never hack into a field with crops or livestock is nice etiquette 

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Yes even after twenty years farmers are still not happy with people or riders, locked gates are widespread which is understandable in lambing season.
The BHS do nothing to open access up, for example windfarm gates are for people only,  no room for carriages or horses [which are mentioned in the Code of  Practice], and access is no better than it was years ago. We don't have bridleways.
 Its attitude.  I  wanted to keep my pony on a farm which had a huge new road running through it [access to windfarm], and was told by YO that I could not use it. well why not, it causes no problem whatsoever. I decided I did not want to  keep my pony there, all she wanted was the money and nothing else, everything was a problem for her, not surprised she had two empty stables.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (3 October 2012)

First we have trespassing. You tried to leave and said it would never happen again. This guy was hell bent on being aggressive by grabbing your horse roughly and not letting you leave. At this stage it becomes self defense and fear for the safety of you and your horse. So I for one would not apologise for that but would apologise about the land thing. Personaly, and I know it's different in England, I just would never ride on anyone's land unless I absolutely knew I had permission. But that's just me. But I'm also the type of person that will defend myself to the last. I would have done the same. 

What if this was a girl in a car. She's lost. She turns around in a lane and a guy comes out and starts trying to get you out of the car to get your details and read you the riot act. You gonna sit there or step on the fecking gas? You guys are hilarious on this board sometimes. If you smack a horse occasionally for pushing boundaries you're an abuser. You defend yourself in a situation that was escalating in which your very safety and that of your horse was in jeaporady and all you all care about is tresspasing. WTF? OP clearly states she tried to leave and said it was never going to happen again. She wasn't stealing or destroying property. This guy was way out of line. Give a tongue lashing but DO NOT touch or threaten. It's that simple.

Terri


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## Caol Ila (3 October 2012)

Good posts from Janet and Terri.

Rider knew she cocked up by riding on land she shouldn't have been on, told the alleged landowner that she was leaving and would never do it again, and the guy went ballistic.  His reaction was totally out of proportion with the offense.  

If some guy grabbed your horse's reins and wouldn't let go, what would you do?  I personally don't think I'd have to go for a whip, because if someone was restraining the horse, screaming at me, and I was terrified, my horse would practice her airs above the ground and the guy could easily end up with a hoof to the face.  On a different horse who wouldn't defend herself (and by association, me), you bet I'd try to run him over with my horse or failing that, go for the dressage whip I always carry.  Sure, the guy's pissed off about you being on his land, but if he's holding onto your bridle, keeping you from leaving, are you going to wait to see if he tries to get you off the horse, sexually assault you or something?  I wouldn't.  I'd get myself out of the situation by any means at my disposal.


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## BWa (3 October 2012)

cattysmith said:



			In all reality even though he had his hands on the horse's reins he wasn't actually "assaulting" the horse as you put it.  He had his hands on the reins because he wanted your details because you were trespassing on his land.

I feel that we aren't getting the entire story here either.
		
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This, did the man actually put his hands on the op? Yes it sounds very scary but if he was being that rough for a few minutes I'm sure the horse might have reacted a bit more. An angry/scared horse would have been an effective self defence IMO.


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## Potato! (3 October 2012)

Some thing I don't understand Is if this man was acting so aggressively then why would he have his back to the rider. To me the body language is wrong, he had multiple whelts on his back which means she must have hit him really hard to be marked through clothing. IMO he shouted to her she gave a sarcastic comment he got angry. wanted her details of where she was from as he has had issues and wanted to confront the YO. She wouldn't give details he grabbed the rein to stop her and whilst he had his back to her she battered him with a whip ( that's what doesn't make sense). A person acting aggressively doesn't turn their back on the other person


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## Caol Ila (3 October 2012)

There's no evidence the alleged welts were indeed caused by the riding crop.  Don't know about UK law, but in US law (which I know a fair bit about and our system is based on yours), the farmer would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that those welts came from the whip.  

Anyway, if the horse is tall-ish (we have no idea how tall it is) and the guy were close enough to be holding onto a rein, it would be easy enough for the whip to come down on his back.  Think of someone standing against your horse's shoulder, you bring your arm out, and down.  Makes sense to me and does not disprove the rider's claim that he was holding her reins when she hit him.


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## ladyt25 (3 October 2012)

I don't get why people are being that nasty to the OP to be honest. Do people KNOW the exact area she was riding in? Only the OP knows if she was knowingly riding on land she wasn't supposed to. It isn't always clear if you are following some farm rides. Also, how many people have been accosted by an aggressive man whilst out on their horse on their own? I would say not many. WHEN did he say who he was and confirm he owned the land? Sorry but unless you are in the situation how can you say how you would react? Round here only a few years ago a couple of riders were attacked on a bridleway near me - in a very nice village where you wouldn't expect things like this to happen - the man did precisely what this man did - grabbed the horse's rein. He the proceeded to pull the woman off her horse.

Sorry but in that split second if you are scared and feared for your safety you may react totally out of character.

trespassing accidentally is hardly a criminal act. There is though no excuse for anyone to act aggressively towards or intimidate others in my opinion.


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## Potato! (3 October 2012)

I still think that with an admission that the op hit him until he let go and photographic evidence of wounds I think she is the one at fault here. I'm actually feel for the land owner here wether he was shouting at her and held the reins when the sarcastic little madam (and I get feeling that the apology and the I will never come here again comment was also said a little sarcastically too) wanting to know where she was from, mist probably to complain to the yard owner. Does not deserve to be battered with a whip.


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## Irishdan (3 October 2012)

I seriously cannot believe the total arrogance of some of these replies!!  Thank the lord I live in Scotland is all I can say.  There is no way in the world I would have given the man any details whether it was his land or not.  Why on earth could he not have politely informed you that you were on his land and ask you to leave at first given opportunity.  He grabbed your horses and put you in a state of fear.  Id have done exactly the same as you, if not worse.  Its a really sad world we live in with all these jumped up land owners around.  We may not have it perfect up here but at least we have freedom


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## lastchancer (3 October 2012)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			First we have trespassing. You tried to leave and said it would never happen again. This guy was hell bent on being aggressive by grabbing your horse roughly and not letting you leave. At this stage it becomes self defense and fear for the safety of you and your horse. So I for one would not apologise for that but would apologise about the land thing. Personaly, and I know it's different in England, I just would never ride on anyone's land unless I absolutely knew I had permission. But that's just me. But I'm also the type of person that will defend myself to the last. I would have done the same. 

What if this was a girl in a car. She's lost. She turns around in a lane and a guy comes out and starts trying to get you out of the car to get your details and read you the riot act. You gonna sit there or step on the fecking gas? You guys are hilarious on this board sometimes. If you smack a horse occasionally for pushing boundaries you're an abuser. You defend yourself in a situation that was escalating in which your very safety and that of your horse was in jeaporady and all you all care about is tresspasing. WTF? OP clearly states she tried to leave and said it was never going to happen again. She wasn't stealing or destroying property. This guy was way out of line. Give a tongue lashing but DO NOT touch or threaten. It's that simple.

Terri
		
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My thoughts exactly, not sure what else she could do given the circumstances. How long was this guy planning to keep her there? 
As annoying and damaging as trespassers are, he handled it very badly.


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## cptrayes (3 October 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			IF you go to the meeting, take a sensible and cool-headed friend at LEAST!  Preferably, take a solicitor.  Apologise for trespass - but nothing else.  You acted in self-defence.  Make tyhe point that the person (who claimed to be the landowner) was agressive and threatening and you were extremely fearful that he would hurt you and/or your horse by his actions!
		
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This is very bad advice Janet, though I am sorry to contradict you.

If she apologises, that will be the end of it. No criminal record, no court case, no costs.

If she won't apologise it will probably go to court as "assault by beating", and at court she will have 3 magistrates or one District Judge shown photographs of weals on the guy's back, while she cannot produce any evidence of her own at all that she was in any danger, far less that it was self defence.

The Bench will have trouble understanding how a person sitting five or six feet up on a horse's back can feel threatened by a man on the floor, or why she could not simply have hit the horse to make it tear its reins away from the man if she was genuinely frightened. Don't shoot the messenger here,_ I _understand perfectly well, as would any rider. The people on the Bench are unlikely to be riders or to understand at all.

Photos of the weals, on the other hand, will speak volumes.

She was entirely in the wrong being where she was. I live in open country. We all know we cannot just go and ride on someone else's land without permission. She was wrong to refuse to give her details, because if the man subsequently discovered damage to his land or stock, he was entitled to demand payment for that. 

And to anyone who says how can he have weals - have you tried having yourself hit  with a whip with a raised arm from six or eight feet up?  To the people who think she can't have hit his back, he was standing close facing her and she hit him overarm over his shoulder.  The Bench is likely to think that if she was geniunely frightened she would have hit his hands and/or his face.

OP apologise and have done with it.  I am sure you will regret it if you do not, because even if you were (very unlikely) to win the case, it will have cost you hundreds in fees to your lawyers.  And if you lose (very likely) you'll be paying an additional several hundred in court costs and doing some unpaid work for the community at weekends instead of riding your horse on other people's land.



ps I have been in this exact same situation, by the way. I gave the guy my name and address and he let go of my horses reins. Same thing would have happened in this case. She could have given him anyone's name and address that sounded female and he would have been happy and let her go. It was her own attitude that caused this problem.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (3 October 2012)

Exactly. Of course he could have welts on his back. You are above the person on the ground. I don't carry a stick on any of mine but safe to say he would have gotten much worse from Abba. She would have just mown him down. 

At the end of the day his reaction was way over the top and did not fit the action. I'm from the US too which is why in my mind is if I don't own it I don't use it. But at the same time you absolutely have the right to defend yourself. 

I think really the only "wrong" thing the OP did is in not reporting the incident as soon as she got back. I would have acknowledged I was wrong on the trespassing but told them I was frightened and scared. That incident could have been much worse. OP falls off is at the hands of a clearly over reactive person. Horse could have run off loose killed a driver or gravely injured himself ect. I'd say if you look into this guy's history you might find other incidents of losing it for minor things. And the fact he ran straight to the police to cry foul. It all adds up to a person that just isn't quite right. My gut feeling. 

OP, take a lawyer and your husband with you to the meeting. Don't claim abuse for your horse but do definitely make the point known how scared you were. 

Good luck
Terri


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## Cinnamontoast (3 October 2012)

zaminda said:



			Don't you dare hang your head in shame! I would be complaining to the police about there attitude! He assaulted you
		
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Don't see where the OP was assaulted. How are the police at fault having responded to an assault where the complainant was *WHIPPED*?!



horserider said:



			Good heavens. On behalf of considerate horse riders, I'd like to go to this meeting and apologise to him.

 Riding around the countryside like the Lady of the manor and giving someone a good whipping because they object to you trampling across their land isn't quite the done thing these days.

However, if you don't want to apologise, make a lawyer rich instead.
		
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This. I too would have been very scared, but I would not have dreamt of thumping someone with my whip! You were scared, he was injured by you. That's assault. Apologise, mean it and pray he doesn't press charges.


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## mon (3 October 2012)

How rude can Irish dan be saying jumped up landowners, I own land work hard and don't earn a fortune, before you make accusations try being a landowner and earning a living from it or is it jealous.  Horse owners like the rest of us must respect things and going where you don't know you are allowed to be is wrong, or I will bring my horse on her lawn or has she keep off signs?


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## Bikerchickone (3 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			This is very bad advice Janet, though I am sorry to contradict you.

If she apologises, that will be the end of it. No criminal record, no court case, no costs.

If she won't apologise it will probably go to court as "assault by beating", and at court she will have 3 magistrates or one District Judge shown photographs of weals on the guy's back, while she cannot produce any evidence of her own at all that she was in any danger, far less that it was self defence.

The Bench will have trouble understanding how a person sitting five or six feet up on a horse's back can feel threatened by a man on the floor, or why she could not simply have hit the horse to make it tear its reins away from the man if she was genuinely frightened. Don't shoot the messenger here,_ I _understand perfectly well, as would any rider. The people on the Bench are unlikely to be riders or to understand at all.

Photos of the weals, on the other hand, will speak volumes.

She was entirely in the wrong being where she was. I live in open country. We all know we cannot just go and ride on someone else's land without permission. She was wrong to refuse to give her details, because if the man subsequently discovered damage to his land or stock, he was entitled to demand payment for that. 

And to anyone who says how can he have weals - have you tried having yourself hit  with a whip with a raised arm from six or eight feet up?  To the people who think she can't have hit his back, he was standing close facing her and she hit him overarm over his shoulder.  The Bench is likely to think that if she was geniunely frightened she would have hit his hands and/or his face.

OP apologise and have done with it.  I am sure you will regret it if you do not, because even if you were (very unlikely) to win the case, it will have cost you hundreds in fees to your lawyers.  And if you lose (very likely) you'll be paying an additional several hundred in court costs and doing some unpaid work for the community at weekends instead of riding your horse on other people's land.



ps I have been in this exact same situation, by the way. I gave the guy my name and address and he let go of my horses reins. Same thing would have happened in this case. She could have given him anyone's name and address that sounded female and he would have been happy and let her go. It was her own attitude that caused this problem.
		
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Totally this! If the OP wants this situation to go away with the minimum of fuss and upset she should just apologise. 

It would stick in my throat too, but it's the quickest and most cost effective way to end the situation. 

Neither OP or landowner acted totally sensibly but if she makes the apology the problem will go away.


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## Irishdan (3 October 2012)

mon said:



			How rude can Irish dan be saying jumped up landowners, I own land work hard and don't earn a fortune, before you make accusations try being a landowner and earning a living from it or is it jealous.  Horse owners like the rest of us must respect things and going where you don't know you are allowed to be is wrong, or I will bring my horse on her lawn or has she keep off signs?
		
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Seriously??   Riding your horse on my lawn is hardly the same as riding down some farm track, but you are more than welcome


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## cptrayes (3 October 2012)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			OP, take a lawyer and your husband with you to the meeting. Don't claim abuse for your horse but do definitely make the point known how scared you were. 

Good luck
Terri
		
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Terri all this girl has to do to make this whole thing go away is to voice a completely insincere apology. That will be the end of it.

If she takes a lawyer with her it will cost her a lot of money.

If she refuses to apologise, it is completely irrelevant whether she is morally in the right or not, she will end up in court and even if she wins she's going to be badly out of pocket.

OP _please_.  Go to the meeting. Swallow your pride. Say "I am very sorry that you were hurt and that I trespassed". 

And walk out of there and forget it.

Otherwise, you are going to spoil your Christmas planning for a court case and waste a lot of time, emotional energy and money. You do realise that you probably cannot get legal aid for this, and that you will not be paid back for your lawyer's fees even if you win, don't you?



...


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## attheponies (3 October 2012)

Actually I thought the advice from JanetGeorge was very sensible (as always!). I understood that if you apologised for trespass and offered a shilling (ok showing my age) for any damage, the landowner could take no further action. I would have felt very threatened by the actions of this guy and whose to say any of us would have reacted differently in this situation. I think some of you are being unbelievably hard on the OP, particularly knowing Norfolk well and the type of country. OP - I would be interested in a PM as to exactly where this happened?


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## NeverSayNever (3 October 2012)

Irishdan said:



			Seriously??   Riding your horse on my lawn is hardly the same as riding down some farm track, but you are more than welcome

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agree with this - there is a world of difference between wrecking someones lawn and going down a track.

Ive thought about this scenario since seeing this thread and if someone got hold of my horse&#8217;s reins and wouldn&#8217;t let go there is NO WAY ON EARTH I would give out my details. Id have my phone out of my pocket and be calling 999 telling them I felt threatened and if he hadn&#8217;t let go by then I would do whatever necessary in self defence to blurry well make him let go! In this day and age you never know what the next move would be - haul you off the horse and assault you? *shudder* Id have been terrified!


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## Equilibrium Ireland (3 October 2012)

Don't see where the OP was assaulted. I will say one thing to all of you. I've been a victim before. Will never happen again. Unless you know what that's like, you have no idea. Do you wait to be assaulted first or do what you can to get the hell away from someone who is hanging on to your horse. Think of people that have become victims. I can guarantee you if they could do it over they would have changed what they did and gotten away before the situation was beyond their control.

Again I have never wavered in my having respect for what other people own. So unless I have been given permission I would never ride on someone's land. But how you all feel sorry for an over reactive jerk is beyond me. Again she wasn't stealing crops and I seriously doubt she tore the field assunder. Yell at her make her feel very an idiot for trespassing. But you do not grab a horse and continue yelling and becoming aggressive. Some people on here go freaky if someone pet's their precious horsie. Or, OMG, leads Pookie in from a field, or passes to close on another horse. But yet you think a guy hanging out of a bridle while being quite over the top is just fine and dandy because you own land. Yeah, ok. 

Terri


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## sophiebailey (3 October 2012)

Sorry to hear about this OP  

Disregarding the trespassing issue (as this is wrong, signs or no signs but you've learn your lesson by the sounds) as a women's self defence instructor, if I was miles away from help and alone with an aggressive stranger and a flitty horse, I'd have acted in the same way.

I know its wrong but when your safety is threatened your fight or flight instinct kicks in and it's far better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

The man may just have been an aggreived land owner, but who's knows what his next actions would be? Had the OP not fled would he have attempted to drag her from her horse and restrain her until she provided her details? ...... We all know what the OP has done is wrong, but by her own admission she knows this. Until you've been in that situation where you genuinely fear for your safety or perhaps your life, please do not judge her. That is what the court is for.

Its not worth much OP but I'd have done the same had he continued to hold my horse and be confrontational and aggresive.

For the sake of what could be a lengthy court case, I'd go to the meeting, play the 'dumb blonde' and say 'I'm ever so sorry Mr'. Then look up your local bridleways!! Xxx


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## cptrayes (3 October 2012)

attheponies said:



			Actually I thought the advice from JanetGeorge was very sensible (as always!). I understood that if you apologised for trespass and offered a shilling (ok showing my age) for any damage, the landowner could take no further action. I would have felt very threatened by the actions of this guy and whose to say any of us would have reacted differently in this situation. I think some of you are being unbelievably hard on the OP, particularly knowing Norfolk well and the type of country. OP - I would be interested in a PM as to exactly where this happened?
		
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This isn't, unfortunately, a case of what is fair or even reasonable. It's a case of being able to prove assault by one person while the other has no evidence whatsoever for their explanation. In court, proof goes a long way and the photographs of weals on a grown man, through his clothes, will speak volumes. So will where she hit him and the fact that she did not herself report the incident.  I am sympathetic about her fear but even so I find myself questionning why she did not hit his hands to make him let go of the reins, or his head if she could not get at his hands and instead chose to belt his back. It's really not going to look good in court 

It isn't even a question of her having her day in court and winning. She might. Unlikely, but she might.

But even if she does, it will have ended up costing her  a minimum of several hundred pounds in legal fees to prepare her defence and represent her in Court.

To avoid that, all she has to do is swallow her pride and say she is sorry.

Any other course of action would be cutting off her nose to spite her face.


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## sophiebailey (3 October 2012)

^^ echo what CPT says. The only physical evidence will be the photos of the marks.

In criminal cases the standard of proof is 'beyond reasonable doubt'. It is without doubt that this man was struck, it could be doubted that he acted to provoke this attack as its only the claimants say so to make this allegation.


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## mon (3 October 2012)

Your ground aka lawn, ad mine might vary in size but it is each other property and should be respected, also I have to try and earn a living off mine and are liable if folk get injured insurance wise.


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## attheponies (3 October 2012)

Can't help feeling a good lawyer would dispute the injuries he claims to have received. However, this would be a costly route - just wondered OP if you have contacted the CAB for independent advice?


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## Jericho (3 October 2012)

Crikey what a horrible situation! I can totally sympathise With OP. my original reaction was that she was in the wrong but had apologised and I hope that it was in genuine faith ie not sarcastic or confrontational and that the landowner may have felt that he wanted more details from her so he could contact the stables she came from to make sure that others didn't follow suit ( this happened to me when I was a naughty teenager and riding on stubble fields without permission!)

However my oh said to me well what would you have done if some man had grabbed my horses rein whilst out hacking alone in countryside and actually had I felt that threatened I.e. he hadn't let go  and he was genuinely hurting and scaring me and my horse I am afraid my response would have been to hit him with my crop. Its a bit of a react first think second situation. We all hear too many nasty things happening to people in this world that sadly we often don't think first....

However for a swift resolution I would perhaps now say sorry for being on his land because you are clearly in the wrong becuase it is someones elses property but clearly state that his behaviour was unacceptable at best, dangerous at worst and explain the reasons for why you hit him I.e. you felt threatened and were protecting yourself.

Good luck OP not a great situation to be in and I hope you resolve it soon.


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## Marydoll (3 October 2012)

CBFan said:



			So if someone were to walk brazenly into your front room just because they fancied it, are you telling me you wouldn't behave in an intimidating fashion??!
		
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Theres a big difference between your front room and an open field, in fact its a poor comparison.
Yes she obviously shouldnt have been trespassing, but he also shouldnt have detained her in a very threatening manner.
OP if i were you id really play up that you were in real fear for your safety at the agression this man was showing, which is why in a panic you lashed out and galloped off


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## ozpoz (3 October 2012)

zaminda said:



			Yes, you were trespassing, but how many of us have got lost on badly signed paths and ended up where we shouldn't? I certainly have! Trespass is not a criminal matter, but assault is, the man was acting dangerously, and threatening you, how did you even know he was the land owner? (I have been accosted by someone on private land, which I had permission to be on, by a dog walker who certainly didn't!!) I think the police should see your actions as self defence, lone female, who has apologised and tried to ride off being accosted by man trying to terrify her? Sorry, but it might be his land, that doesn't stop him from behaving decently. All the, you wouldn't ride through someones garden is slightly off track, and it doesn't sound like the OP is a repeat offender, in which case I could understand him getting irrate, but would still never condone this sort of behaviour, and am amazed that anyone is! I doubt if any of us would go outside and attack people I certainly wouldn't.Take legal advice, I would certainly like to know how he found you, that in itself is rather worrying
		
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Yes, this!
i think this episode is shocking - how the hell are you supposed to know if he owns the land or not? He had no right to demand your name and address, whoever he is,and should have accepted your apology if he was the landowner. And to grab and hang on to your horse is indefensible


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## partypremier (3 October 2012)

My two pennies worth.
I think at some point we have all ridden somewhere we maybe shouldn't.
Whether that be unitentionable or deliberatly ignoring people's land ownership rights.

That does not excuse the way this man behaved towards you & your horse.
What if you had fallen off & the horse bolted, what might man's next move have been?

But the law is an ARSE.
You should have gone to the police yourself & reported the threatening & potentially dangerous behaviour.

Out hunting an anti got hold of someone's horse in the same way, the rider hit the anti with his crop across the head & faced assault charges, he put forward a counter assault & the case was dropped.

Can you get legal aid?
If not this could be costly for you if you use a solicitor.
Go to said meeting & state that you were acting in self defence as you feared the man's actions were going to result in you either being assaulted or having an accident with your horse.
They hopefully will take into account the mental trauma you suffered & not just his physical trauma.
Good luck.

By the way I do not think that riders should assume they have a right to ride wherever they please, but I would not expect to be abused if I had unitentionally wronged & apologised for my mistake.


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## Pidgeon (3 October 2012)

Haven't read all the replies but a fair few of them and to be honest I'm shocked and appalled at some of the replies. 
I'm terribly sorry but for those of you that think she was in the wrong to do what she did, open your eyes and read the news. See the stories of people being attacked, raped and murdered. This happens far too frequently and TBH in that situation even sat on 17hh of horse I'd be scared stiff and would do anything to get out of that situation. I'd rather belt someone with a stick who was being very aggressive and refusing to take their hand off my horses reins than face the consequences of something far worse.
Shame on you those that have berated the OP, actually think for a moment before posting and put yourself in her shoes. If something bad had happened and she had been assaulted or worse murdered would your opinion change!And yes I think she knows she was in the wrong initially, two wrongs don't make a right.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (3 October 2012)

I do get your point CP and I most likely would swallow my pride and apologise to make it go away. I would have my husband with me though. 

Had this been me though I would have reported it straight away to the police as soon as my horse was put away. But I am telling you, nobody will do something like that to me and me just take it. Like I said, I was a victim once. It will never happen again. He never would have had a chance to put a hand on me or my horse. 

But I clearly am not in the camp of landowner had the right to act like an idiot. 

Terri


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## Archiesmummy (3 October 2012)

It could have ended a lot worse.  Recently a local landowner confronted bikers tearing around his newly seeded field (saw a bare field, I suspect, thinking no harm done), a chase ensued, a biker was unseated and the landowners vehicle hit a rutt and the vehicle overturned, killing the biker.   So very sad but totally unecessary.  

There could have been hidden dangers in the field, rabbit holes, discarded wire, allsorts.  I have ridden off piste a few times and tbh have not enjoyed it as I was worried about being caught where I shouldn't be, knowing it to be wrong.  Its just not worth it.

I would apologise for your outburst, you reacted because he started to scare you and was worried for your safety, being all alone and iit was out of character.  TBH, I think I would have done the same to get away from him if he was being intimidating.

If I see somewhere I would like to ride I often find out who owns the land and approach them.  Sometimes a yes, a lot of time a no.


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## Bubley898 (3 October 2012)

Only read a few responses so sorry if I am repeating anything! There is no such thing as assault of a horse or any other animal for that matter. Animals are considered property in the eyes of the law, so even if a horse is purposely injured by a human the most it would be is criminal damage. Frustrating yes but that's English law for you. You must have admitted the assault for the police to offer you restorative justice. If you don't go along with that you may end up with a caution or worse a charge for what is considered a violent crime and it will stay on your record. Maybe you could tactfully explain your reasons and what he did upset your horse. Not a nice situation but as others have said you were trespassing, and to hit someone to cause welts is unsurprisingly considered excessive by the police in those circumstances.


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## ozpoz (3 October 2012)

It is quite possible to pull a horse over backwards by hanging on the bit from the ground. This is potentially life threatening for the rider. I would say she acted in self defence.
I don't believe he had the right to restrain someone who had already apologised.

I am glad I live in Scotland where this sort of behaviour would not be defended.


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## Marydoll (3 October 2012)

ozpoz said:



			It is quite possible to pull a horse over backwards by hanging on the bit from the ground. This is potentially life threatening for the rider. I would say she acted in self defence.
I don't believe he had the right to restrain someone who had already apologised.

I am glad I live in Scotland where this sort of behaviour would not be defended.
		
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Agreed


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## Bubley898 (3 October 2012)

Don't think OP can claim self defense now she has admitted it. OP if you were interviewed at a police station you were entitled to free and independent legal advice, if at your home then at your own expense and now prior to your meeting would be at your own expense. WWID? Apologise with gritted teeth and not trespass again.


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## muckypony (3 October 2012)

I have nothing else to add that others haven't already said and I'm probably going to totally change the subject but....

If what Bubley898 says is true that there is no law to protect animals against abuse, does that mean that when someone intentionally harms a horse (as has been seen a lot over the years, slashing etc) it is just criminal damage!? If so, that's disgusting... What's the difference between someone murdering a human to someone murdering a horse...?


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## Shantara (3 October 2012)

Just wanted to add - me and my friends have been cornered and told we can not ride on a bit of land, that we had assumed was a bridleway. There was a sign, but it was old and poorly kept, we weren't sure which way we could go.
The men were shooting and while they weren't threatening, they were very short with us. 
"Oi, you're not allowed to ride here!"
"Oh, ok, sorry! There's a gate there, we'll leave. Sorry again"
"Whatever, it's not for horses!!"

We left before it went any further, but we looked it up and we were indeed allowed along there. 

I hope you're not too shaken up, OP, but I bet you'll be super attentive to where you ride now


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## indie999 (3 October 2012)

Bubley898 said:



			Don't think OP can claim self defense now she has admitted it. OP if you were interviewed at a police station you were entitled to free and independent legal advice, if at your home then at your own expense and now prior to your meeting would be at your own expense. WWID? Apologise with gritted teeth and not trespass again.
		
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I agree with this. If you had genuinely feared for being harmed or terrified+++ then fair enough but you never made this clear and cant change your story to the police(if you had been you would have rushed home and rang 999). I would agree with the above and go to the meeting apologise but make it clear that he scared the living daylights out of you & grabbing your horse you thought you were going to get hurt etc, being a lone female etc and tell him he wont see you again. 
I think you are getting off lightly, you did actually assault him(even if I dont blame you as a horse owner for being cross as we have one very pig headed farmer near us who tells everyone off even on bridleways) BUT you did actually assault him.  There is no law to say you have to give your name and address to anyone.(that is true). good luck bite the bullet. I cant see how he can persue it if he has agreed to this meeting either so at least that is one good thing(ie he cant have it all his way). He may not even turn up...deep breath one word"sorry". If he is local he will not be very popular person for taking such action against a woman. Good luck though.


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## Dizzydancer (3 October 2012)

There are laws to protect animals from abuse and murder etc that's why people go to court over mistreated animals. However hard to prove he hung off horses mouth unfortunately. 
Firstly i wouldn't have given real name or address. Second you should have gone to police so when he reported it you had already pre warned or gone soon after to explain. As it would have prob been null and void as self defence in that case.
You can't do anything now but i would get a solicitor opinion before saying anything else- then know what to say. If with bhs they have legal team who will help.


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## Potato! (3 October 2012)

If someone was standing in front of a car shouting at you and blocking your exit would you drive at them till they moved.  In the eyes of the law a horse is no different from a car


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## Auslander (3 October 2012)

muckypony said:



			What's the difference between someone murdering a human to someone murdering a horse...?
		
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Quite a lot actually. Murdering another human being is on a completely different level to killing a horse - and that's how it should be.


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## FfionWinnie (3 October 2012)

Forever_broke said:



			Some thing I don't understand Is if this man was acting so aggressively then why would he have his back to the rider. To me the body language is wrong, he had multiple whelts on his back which means she must have hit him really hard to be marked through clothing. IMO he shouted to her she gave a sarcastic comment he got angry. wanted her details of where she was from as he has had issues and wanted to confront the YO. She wouldn't give details he grabbed the rein to stop her and whilst he had his back to her she battered him with a whip ( that's what doesn't make sense). A person acting aggressively doesn't turn their back on the other person
		
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Not if he is facing the rider and holding the reins while standing at the side but close to the head of the horse which is how I pictured it.  That would be the only place to hit him otherwise you'd be smacking the horse in the face. 

The chances are he knows about horses.  I can't see someone with no horse knowledge grab hold of one during an argument.


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## Caol Ila (3 October 2012)

I think it's worth having a look at those "self-defense on the trail" videos I posted a zillions pages ago.  Whacking a guy with your crop might end in assault charges (after all -- he was ONLY hanging onto your "property's" bridle, preventing you from leaving), but if your horse runs over the dude, well, he was frightening it.  

I used to keep my horse near an interesting (shall we say) bit of North Lanarkshire.  I made sure the horse was sharp to the leg, if I wanted her to swing her bum around or throw her shoulder in any given direction, but the horse is like Lassie anway and would defend us.  Had some lads  approach us in a threatening manner while one a hack and I was worried and my horse started dancing and swishing her tail.  They got spooked by her and buggered off but if they'd grabbed her, a crop to the back would have been mild to the damage the horse could have inflicted.

OP said she was afraid her horse would rear.  As I said, if I were in her shoes I'd be afraid of being pulled off the horse and assaulted.  Would you all be "blaming the victim" then (trespass or no)?  I'd rather whack the guy with a whip or have my horse throw kick than face that.


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## Twinkley Lights (3 October 2012)

I haven't read all of the thread but 99 per cent of answers are flawed in that the civil matter trespass cannot take precedence over the criminal matter assault. The simple trespass issue does not excuse his actions to you. I would not go to the RJ session without understanding the implications for you e.g can you end up with a criminal record. I would also like to understand from the police why they are not progressing your assault claim. Go to your MP or Police complaints authority and local police authority if you have to but please don't just roll over for this. Sorry if this has already been said. Take care.


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## indie999 (3 October 2012)

But the point that is being missed she was so terrified that the police tracked her down a week later. The OP never went rushing to the police to report him instantly. Now if I was that terrified I would have got on my mobile 999 or as soon as I could. If I went home and told my OH he would have been furious and got on the phone in case there was some dangerous guy etc.I think she may have hoped no one would discover her. Sorry to sound so blunt but this is how it would stack up against her if she was trying to defend herself for being scared. 

He sounds a right P...t. But perhaps he has had enough of people on his land ie what if he had been out rough shooting as he thought no one was around etc on his private land etc.


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## Fii (3 October 2012)

bonny said:



			Reading these riding on people's land which always seem to end up with countless people saying the same thing re living rooms, gardens etc makes me glad to live in Scotland where we can ride more or less where we like. Does anyone know if such a sensible, fair idea will ever apply to England as well and then situations like this one would simply not arise.
		
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I dont think this  is a sensible or fair idea, how does it work?
We have footpaths through our field, but i wouldnt want people riding through it! gates would have to be un-padlocked, ancient kissing gates removed, my horses would be in danger of getting out!!
 there are bridle ways and footpaths through our common, and gates are left open there,and stock get out on the roads!!
 there are plenty of bridle ways and footpaths!! (here anyway)


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## honetpot (3 October 2012)

Before you go to this meeting please take legal advice. If you admit to this it give you a criminal record so if you ever go for a job and have to have a CRB check it will come up. Never accept a caution either as that is an admission of guilt and come up on a CRB.
 If they think they have enough evidence let them charge you, they will then have to prove you caused injury and I would claim 'nessary force' as this man was theatening you and detaining you against your will. If you are charged I would get the press involved as well.
   A man broke into my house with an axe with my husbanand children present and the police would have to prove he was there in court, as he could deney when it went to court. Let them prove you did it.


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## Fii (3 October 2012)

AMW said:



			this is the Scottish Countryside Access Code.

http://www.snh.gov.uk/docs/B621366.pdf

http://www.snh.gov.uk/docs/A309336.pdf

and yes it does work well, it doesnt mean you can ride roughshod wherever you want but the key is to be considerate and responsible for your own actions.
I have just had a lovely hack through a local estate, we checked with the gamekeeper and there are certain tracks off limit during the shooting season. This hack takes me through a couple of farms, I am polite and considerate, I would say the majority of riders are,  but up here its taken for granted you can access these areas, there arent many riders in the area.
		
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with bridle ways, footpaths, in England at least you know that there wont be random shoots going on within a certain distance, you know you dont need permission and can ride without to much of a worry!
 Also i dont trust anybody to be considerate and responsible, they rarely are!!


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## honetpot (3 October 2012)

PS. A man once followed me home in my car because I apparently bumped his car when getting out of a parking space. I could not beleave it and took a circlular route home, when I puuled up infront of the house I ran inside and he's on the drive shouting abuse and saying I had damaged his car. My husband was home and he went out side to look, not a mark on the car. The bloke is still shouting and saying I'ed left the scene of an accident, I said what accident as far as was concerned I hadn't touched the car and had been scared to shaking by some man following me home. He then said he would call the police and I said please do and went inside,so he drove off. 
 What got me was a women was sat in the passenger seat though all this, Did she not the his behavoir was OTT. I think some men just lose it and lose all perpective.


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## Pale Rider (4 October 2012)

Shivvy

I haven't read all of the thread but 99 per cent of answers are flawed in that the civil matter trespass cannot take precedence over the criminal matter assault. The simple trespass issue does not excuse his actions to you. I would not go to the RJ session without understanding the implications for you e.g can you end up with a criminal record. I would also like to understand from the police why they are not progressing your assault claim. Go to your MP or Police complaints authority and local police authority if you have to but please don't just roll over for this. Sorry if this has already been said. Take care.

I do agree with this. Take legal advice OP. Alot of the opinions posted on here are very wide of the mark, in law.

You have been assaulted.

Your actions are justifiable.

Go to see a solicitor.


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## glenruby (4 October 2012)

You did assault the man AND trespassed on his land. No contest - you are at fault and should apologise. Self defence is also no excuse for assault in the eyes of the law. You'll be lucky to get away without a charge. Also from your description he did not "assault" anyone inc your horse.


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## Marydoll (4 October 2012)

glenruby said:



			You did assault the man AND trespassed on his land. No contest - you are at fault and should apologise. Self defence is also no excuse for assault in the eyes of the law. You'll be lucky to get away without a charge. Also from your description he did not "assault" anyone inc your horse.
		
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I completely disagree with the above.

The man detained you and put you and himself in a dangerous situation, you were being prevented from leaving in a dangerous way, and verbally abused by an irate man while on your own, as a woman you had every right to be fearful of this man and his actions,you were in a very vulnarable position, i think you were justified in your defense of yourself due to his behaviour, and if hitting him with your stick enabled you to get away, thats what you needed to do.
As a woman i would not wait till some irate man decided to lift his hands to me, if i felt threatened id make damned sure i got the first kick in to let me get out of that situation.


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## Bubley898 (4 October 2012)

He touched your reins he did not assault you. As others have said get legal advice not advice from a forum. Fwiw you do not get a criminal record that comes up on crb checks by taking part is restorative justice.


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## mcnaughty (4 October 2012)

Poor Man!  You trespass on his land and then beat him up!  Crikey, I think the least he deserves is an apology.  I have ridden on land that I know I should not have in my younger years but there is no way I would have attacked the land owner for pointing out my very obvious error.


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## indie999 (4 October 2012)

honetpot said:



			Before you go to this meeting please take legal advice. If you admit to this it give you a criminal record so if you ever go for a job and have to have a CRB check it will come up. Never accept a caution either as that is an admission of guilt and come up on a CRB.
 If they think they have enough evidence let them charge you, they will then have to prove you caused injury and I would claim 'nessary force' as this man was theatening you and detaining you against your will. If you are charged I would get the press involved as well.
   A man broke into my house with an axe with my husbanand children present and the police would have to prove he was there in court, as he could deney when it went to court. Let them prove you did it.
		
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But she hasnt denied she DID NOT do it? Even if we think she was in danger etc she never really made this clear. You cant go changing statements to try and get off. Even if we think he was wrong grabbing her horse. I do agree I would want to sound out with a solicitor though for peace of mind. Although I think she is getting of lightly and my guess is from what has been said is she knows she is getting of lighly by just saying sorry. She hasnt been charged with anything and I think the police are trying to just resolve this without charging her. She is probably lucky as if someone struck me with a whip I would want them charged. Perhaps the police know the farmer well they usually  know landowners in their area. Would love to hear his side. How did they find her after a week?Someone must have given her details to the police etc. OP face the music and just pay ie £150 for a meeting with a legal eagle.


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## Patterdale (4 October 2012)

I really think that a lot of people replying now need to go back and  CAREFULLY read the OP. 

OP was trespassing, sarcastic when approached, and when the landowner (understandably IMO) demanded her details (in case of any damage, usually) and held her horses rein (NOT assault) she hit him hard enough and enough times, on the back, to leave several noticable weals.  
And she now doesn't want to apologise. 

A few things wrong with this for me.....

But for those who think it's ok to trespass on someones land and then assault them with a riding crop.......I hope you don't live near me!!


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## Irishdan (4 October 2012)

OMG what is wrong with you people???  Supposing OP was trespassing, what in heck gives this man the right to place her in a state of fear and grab her horse?? What gives this man the right to behave like this to a lone female?? What is wrong with landowner appearing, giving friendly chat and advise rather than jumping in all guns blazing - thats going to get anyones back up!

In the 80s one of my teenage friends was hacking in local woods, approached by a man who grabbed her horse and tried to pull her off.  She was only saved by the fact her horse spooked and shot off.

Last year, one jumped up little farmer local to me, flew into a frenzy as myself and partner were hacking down a farm track belonging to him.  He did a massive sideways skid in his jeep towards our horses and spooked them.  I went straight to the Police and he got a severe warning.  As it should be

Im with OP 200% here.


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## fidleyspromise (4 October 2012)

I don't think anyone's saying it's ok to trespass or be sarcastic (its assumed but was she definitely sarcastic?) when OP was in the wrong.  What a lot of people are IMO underrstandably upset at, is the fact that OP was scared when he grabbed her reins (as would I be) as he could have done anything?
Would everyone's reactions be the same if he had grabbed her?  How did she know that was not to be his intention?

My pony can leap about scared etc and I can still hold onto her reins, so I'm not convinced that I would be able to ride her out of that situation (I'd certainly try and hitting someone with a whip would be a last resort but if I was scared for my life, then yes I would do anything to get out of the situation).  

People say phone the police.  I'd be concerned the man would go for me - I'd have one hand on rein, concentrating on phone and TBH, I'd be worried about falling off, man lets horse go, and I'm stuck isolated with a man! 
Both were in the wrong but biggest concern for me is how he detained her and I can't believe a lot of people on this thread are happy about that.  If you were out walking and someone grabbed you because you'd walked into the wrong field, would that also be ok?  Maybe the man was just angry and wouldn't do anything else but HOW was OP to know that?

(PS. Despite being in Scotland, I don't go near anyone's fields etc, unless asked and therefore majority of my hacking is on roads!)


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## cptrayes (4 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Shivvy

I haven't read all of the thread but 99 per cent of answers are flawed in that the civil matter trespass cannot take precedence over the criminal matter assault. The simple trespass issue does not excuse his actions to you. I would not go to the RJ session without understanding the implications for you e.g can you end up with a criminal record. I would also like to understand from the police why they are not progressing your assault claim. Go to your MP or Police complaints authority and local police authority if you have to but please don't just roll over for this. Sorry if this has already been said. Take care.

I do agree with this. Take legal advice OP. Alot of the opinions posted on here are very wide of the mark, in law.

You have been assaulted.

Your actions are justifiable.

Go to see a solicitor.
		
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*THIS IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY INCORRECT ADVICE*

The whole point of the Restorative Justice meeting is to *AVOID* a criminal prosecution.

If this girl apologises she will NOT have a criminal record.

OP, go, apologise, go have a drink and forget all about it. Please, please do not listen to people giving you the wrong advice or you may WELL end up with a criminal record!




..


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## Double_choc_lab (4 October 2012)

If it goes to Court the OP has already admitted on a public forum "I hit him with my crop until he let go" therefore photos of wheals corroborate with this.


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## smellsofhorse (4 October 2012)

firstly you shouldn't have been there!
Regardless or weather it said private or not!
If its not a bridle way or common land no way should you have been there.

I bet it was scary and both or you were in the wrong.
He should have let go.
You should have hit him quite so many times to cause injury!
If you didn't give him your name how did he find you?


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## jrp204 (4 October 2012)

We re only hearing one side of this story. For all we know OP has ridden in the field everyday for the past 6 wks, has been spotted before, maybe has in the past caused some damage so LO has just cause to ask for her name etc.
Firstly, she knew she shouldn't have been there and if it wasn't the first time she would have been very defensive,and  we all know how some people can behave when confronted. We only have her word on all of this and guilt (and she has admitted guilt towards trespass and assault) also can make people exagerate to justify their actions.
Just being devils advocate, if she is correct on all parts, who knows? Then, yes, LO could have handled it better but sorry, if it had happened as she has said, and she was that terrified why did she not phone the police to report it?


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## Patterdale (4 October 2012)

Jrp totally agree.


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## indie999 (4 October 2012)

jrp204 said:



			We re only hearing one side of this story. For all we know OP has ridden in the field everyday for the past 6 wks, has been spotted before, maybe has in the past caused some damage so LO has just cause to ask for her name etc.
Firstly, she knew she shouldn't have been there and if it wasn't the first time she would have been very defensive,all we all know how some people can behave when confronted. We only have her word on all of this and guilt (and she has admitted guilt towards trespass and assault) also can make people exagerate to justify their actions.
Just being devils advocate, if she is correct on all parts, who knows? Then, yes, LO could have handled it better but sorry, if it had happened as she has said, and she was that terrified why did she not phone the police to report it?
		
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When this was posted I recited the story to someone who knows what they are on about legally, I hadnt even finished and they said immediately she is in the wrong. When I tried to defend her about being fearful etc I got NO NO she is in wrong(I have met one stroppy farmer in our area who was unreasonable and has been to many other folk). Go and say sorry much easier. I agree with above. Perhaps the farmer is a reasonable guy?


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## scarymare (4 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



*THIS IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY INCORRECT ADVICE*

The whole point of the Restorative Justice meeting is to *AVOID* a criminal prosecution.

If this girl apologises she will NOT have a criminal record.

OP, go, apologise, go have a drink and forget all about it. Please, please do not listen to people giving you the wrong advice or you may WELL end up with a criminal record!




..
		
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^^^^^^ THIS.  I haven't been on since yesterday and strikes me there are an awful lot of frankly silly people presumably under 18 giving really dangerous advice.  I'd be interested to know how old the OP is.  I'm sat here on my pedestal because I know I would have been able to de-escalate and diffuse the situation but perhaps the OP just hasn't yet developed those skills which actually isn't her fault, most of us in our teens and 20's are hotheads (not sure I'd ever have whipped a stranger though).


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## wench (4 October 2012)

From the op it sounds to me as though she is used to swanning about and riding wherever she fancies.... Not just "accidental" tresspass... She was well aware she was trespassing. Not that it makes any difference in court.

But totally in the wrong, and if she hadn't been tresspassing it wouldn't have happened


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## Patterdale (4 October 2012)

OP is married so probably over teens.


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## Elsbells (4 October 2012)

I've read most of this thread and mt thoughts have swung, but ultimately  I can visualise that she's my daughter and what I would want her to do in that situation?

Yes she was wrong to trespass but he took it a step to ar and in my view, he attacked her! In that case and if she was my daughter I would of expected her to do anything she could to get away, even violence as he could of been anyone, done anything and whose to say he wouldn't of??

Shame the OP didn't report the attack.


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## mon (4 October 2012)

Also we should all be aware of personal safety and not ride where unlikely to be seen especially when on own and much more likely to be seen when on allowed areas even if by other riders.


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## HBM1 (4 October 2012)

Angry farmer comes up and says you are on his land - (he probably has had plenty of people riding or walking on his land before without having the courtesy of asking if it is ok), - diffuse the ruddy situation immediately by apologising and asking if you can pay him a monthly "rent" to ride on his land in the future if you stick to the boundaries.  I am sorry but I can't imagine for one second you said "sorry I will leave immediately and never return" - anyway....as others have said, go to the restorative justice meeting.  For heavens sake the police are trying to help you here. You whipped this poor man very badly.  Yes he grabbed your reins but there must have been something to happen prior to that - eg was HE worried you were about to trample him.  Your attitude here as to how you can get out of this without going and apologising (rather than ending up in court), is quite sad really and possibly what the farmer got that day.   People do not have to put up signs all over the place to say they own land, or anything for that matter...frankly, if you know *you *don't own it, stay off.


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## Dry Rot (4 October 2012)

patterdale said:



			I really think that a lot of people replying now need to go back and  CAREFULLY read the OP. 

OP was trespassing, sarcastic when approached, and when the landowner (understandably IMO) demanded her details (in case of any damage, usually) and held her horses rein (NOT assault) she hit him hard enough and enough times, on the back, to leave several noticable weals.  
And she now doesn't want to apologise. 

A few things wrong with this for me.....

But for those who think it's ok to trespass on someones land and then assault them with a riding crop.......I hope you don't live near me!!
		
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+1.

Doesn't a landowner have the right to use reasonable force to remove a trespasser?  How does one "remove" a horse, if not by taking hold of the reins?

LO was also quite within his rights to demand the name and address of a trespasser so he could bring an action for damage to crops etc., if necessary.

If the OP seriously felt she was in danger, she should have phoned the police as soon as possible after the incident. That would be the natural and sensible thing to do. But she didn't. She said nothing until the police found her a week later. 

If she gets off with having to do no more than make an apology, she can count herself very very lucky indeed in my opinion.


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## Jenna1406 (4 October 2012)

I cant believe that this "debate" is still going on.

What if it was your daughter that this happened too?  Would you still be saying she was in the wrong when an unknown male approached her, took hold if her horse and demanded her details, not knowing what actually might happen and in this day and age, no one is safe anymore!

Myself, I would probably react in the same way but my mare is unpredictable so either she could get a fright and run or seriously hurt the person holding her.  So, a few smacks with the whip is better than a horse biting, kicking, barging, rearing and causing harm that way!


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## fburton (4 October 2012)

ladyt25 said:



			Do people KNOW the exact area she was riding in?
		
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In some parts of the country (England) it's not always blindingly obvious whether one is on private land or not. For example, in the area of Surrey around Albury, Farley Green, Gomshall, etc. there are bridleways, Forestry Commission land, public heathland spaces, as well as public roads and an extensive network of small lanes. Of course, there's a lot of privately owned land (including farmed) too. One sees lots of "Private property - no trespassing" signs on gates, as you'd expect from somewhere like Surrey. However, because it's all jumbled up, it is rather easy to end up on private land inadvertently, as I discovered on several occasions (although I only felt threatened once - when I was a young boy and had a shotgun pointed at me by an irate gamekeeper on Albury Estate).


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## Capriole (4 October 2012)

OP if you are still reading, I think you should take proper legal advice rather than opinions from a forum.


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## fburton (4 October 2012)

mon said:



			How rude can Irish dan be saying jumped up landowners, I own land work hard and don't earn a fortune, before you make accusations try being a landowner and earning a living from it or is it jealous.  Horse owners like the rest of us must respect things and going where you don't know you are allowed to be is wrong, or I will bring my horse on her lawn or has she keep off signs?
		
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Playing Devil's Advocate here to some extent, may I ask how exactly are you harmed if someone comes on to your land and _does no damage_? (The last part is crucial, of course - Scots Law doesn't say people are free to go anywhere _and_ do anything they like.)


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## NeverSayNever (4 October 2012)

Capriole said:



			OP if you are still reading, I think you should take proper legal advice rather than opinions from a forum.
		
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yes this , absolutely!


I am so glad I too live in Scotland though given some of the opinions on here 

I was hacking down a track a few years ago one of the people who lived along there decided to &#8216;allow&#8217; her 5 labradors to get out of the garden gate to chase us, because she didnt think horses should be allowed to ride there. Horse went up; I came off; she walked away back into her house; horse bolted into the road but was thankfully caught by a passerby. I rang the police and she received a &#8216;talking to&#8217;. 

Thank goodness for the Scottish countryside Access Code. It doesnt give us carte blanche to do what we like, with the rights come responsibilities and you cannot cause damage. the words of Braveheart spring to mind actually....


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## Marydoll (4 October 2012)

Capriole said:



			OP if you are still reading, I think you should take proper legal advice rather than opinions from a forum.
		
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People including myself can give our opinions, but i agree with the above.


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## Marydoll (4 October 2012)

I am so glad i ride in Scotland with our right of access code to work by


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## Renvers (4 October 2012)

What would I do? Take legal advice - none of us can tell you the best course of action. Please don't base your actions on our advice, talk to a solicitor.


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## Capriole (4 October 2012)

marydoll said:



			People including myself can give our opinions, but i agree with the above.
		
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Oh I agree, we can all give opinions, but when it gets into legal advice territory from strangers on the internet Im a bit dubious.


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## Caol Ila (4 October 2012)

Capriole said:



			Oh I agree, we can all give opinions, but when it gets into legal advice territory from strangers on the internet Im a bit dubious.
		
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Agree.  I'm happy (obviously) to give an opinion but the OP should not make decisions based on what random strangers with no legal expertise on the 'net say.  She should definitely talk to a lawyer.


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## Twinkley Lights (4 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



*THIS IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY INCORRECT ADVICE*

The whole point of the Restorative Justice meeting is to *AVOID* a criminal prosecution.

If this girl apologises she will NOT have a criminal record.

OP, go, apologise, go have a drink and forget all about it. Please, please do not listen to people giving you the wrong advice or you may WELL end up with a criminal record!




..
		
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Cptrayes - Sadly this is incorrect to as whilst RJ seeks to avoid criminalisation it can if required support a reduced penalty when action is still justified.  That was my point in advising OP to talk to a lawyer first.


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## PandorasJar (4 October 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			Exactly!  Someone DID once grab my horse's reins and tried to drag me off it - it was extremely frightening and I kicked my foot out of the stirrup and kicked him VERY hard in the jaw.  I'm pretty sure it broke - I left him doubled over nursing it and galloped off - and *reported the incident to the police when I got home*.  (I was about 16 at the time!)  I would NOT have apologised and - strangely enough - he did not report the incident to the police! 

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This is the key point for me. If she was truly in fear of her life then you report to the police as you did.
In this case it's flipped, he has reported, and in your words... strangely enough... she's kept her head down.


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## JFTDWS (4 October 2012)

I've been avoiding this thread, mostly because a lot of the opinions on here frankly terrify me.  I find it astounding that people actually believe the LO has no right to demand details from a trespasser, nor to attempt to prevent the trespasser from crossing his land at speed and potentially doing considerable damage in an attempt to avoid providing those details.  

All the LO did was tell the OP off, ask for her details and take hold of her horse's rein when she attempted to leave without giving them?  That is not assault, by any definition.  It is not unreasonable force and it is NOT disproportionately threatening, given the circumstances.  If the OP was scared, it was because she had been caught doing something wrong, not because the LO threatened to do anything untoward.  All she had to do was give her details and leave - she chose not to.  She then chose to assault the LO with her whip on his own land.  There is no question that she is in the wrong.

And, fwiw, this is also a very valid point.  The OP's comments clearly suggest she was seeking only validatory answers on this forum, she will not even contemplate that she was wrong.  If she is giving an unbiased account, I will be utterly astounded.



jrp204 said:



			We re only hearing one side of this story. For all we know OP has ridden in the field everyday for the past 6 wks, has been spotted before, maybe has in the past caused some damage so LO has just cause to ask for her name etc.
Firstly, she knew she shouldn't have been there and if it wasn't the first time she would have been very defensive,and  we all know how some people can behave when confronted. We only have her word on all of this and guilt (and she has admitted guilt towards trespass and assault) also can make people exagerate to justify their actions.
Just being devils advocate, if she is correct on all parts, who knows? Then, yes, LO could have handled it better but sorry, if it had happened as she has said, and she was that terrified why did she not phone the police to report it?
		
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## Maesfen (4 October 2012)

Elsbells said:



			I've read most of this thread and mt thoughts have swung, but ultimately  I can visualise that she's my daughter and what I would want her to do in that situation?

Yes she was wrong to trespass but he took it a step to ar and in my view, he attacked her! In that case and if she was my daughter I would of expected her to do anything she could to get away, even violence as he could of been anyone, done anything and whose to say he wouldn't of??

Shame the OP didn't report the attack.
		
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What I find hard to understand is the OP didn't move her horse away from him in the first place; why let him get so close that he could hold the reins when she already knew he was cross at her?  Angry man + lonely field + lone female - does she have no sense at all?.

Great post, JFTD


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## lula (4 October 2012)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			Some people on here go freaky if someone pet's their precious horsie. Or, OMG, leads Pookie in from a field, or passes to close on another horse. But yet you think a guy hanging out of a bridle while being quite over the top is just fine and dandy because you own land. Yeah, ok. 

Terri
		
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perfectly good point.

the OP has already stated to the many posters imploring her to swallow her pride and apologise at this mediation meeting that that IS exactly what she is intending to do.

a lot of sensible points but unusually from littlegs a load of rubbish about not undersdtanding how a woman can feel vulnerable to a man on foot just becuase she's on horse back. Its all very well 'moving' your horse's quarters or shoulders to swat a potential aggressor out of the way but not everyone may have such a horse where that was possible, my 4 yr old being a case in point.
littllegs you have obviously never had the life scared out of you riding alone in a quiet wooded bridleway when a male jumps out of the bushes and tries to pull you off your horse as i have. in the situation where adrenaline takes over and you genuinely fear for your safety i assure you you dont care WHERE you lash out, you just DO to try to get away.

its absolute bull crap to say you cannot be vulnerable just because you're mounted on horseback.


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## fburton (4 October 2012)

glenruby said:



			Self defence is also no excuse for assault in the eyes of the law.
		
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Are you sure about that? I thought people are allowed in law to use 'reasonable force' to protect themselves if they believe they are in danger. What consitutes 'reasonable force' can be argued about, but it can include actions that would certainly considered as assault in other circumstances, such as striking someone.


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## RunToEarth (4 October 2012)

I've read this thread and cannot believe some peoples opinions. 

If I walked into your home uninvited, or came into your place of work and trampled your hard work would you feel the same? 

Is it any wonder land owners are so intollerant of horse riders riding where they have no right to be? 

When will people realise that people derive their living from land, and it is unacceptable to ride over it with no permission or due respect. 

owners of land and property have a duty of care for anyone on their land, whether they are trespassing or not, we were in a legal battle a few years ago with a rider who was injured on our land without permission to be there, put yourself in that position and realise why many land owners will not tollerate trespassing. 

I am completely unsympathetic and wish people could realise land is not cheap and you cannot ride wherever you please.


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## irish_only (4 October 2012)

I've not read all the replies but my only experience with something like this was with a saboteur who grabbed someones rein in the same way. In court, this was likened to a passenger grabbing the steering wheel whilst you are driving. Completely unacceptable. Yes, you were probably trespassing and given the opportunity you would have apologised sincerely and removed yourself. However, the situation was taken out of your hands by the land owner grabbing your horse. I would plead on these lines. Bloody ell, we all make mistakes.


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## fburton (4 October 2012)

Bubley898 said:



			He touched your reins he did not assault you.
		
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So what is that - false imprisonment? If so, that is still unlawful, and actually a form of trespass (to the person), I believe.


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## lula (4 October 2012)

Maesfen said:



			What I find hard to understand is the OP didn't move her horse away from him in the first place; why let him get so close that he could hold the reins when she already knew he was cross at her?  Angry man + lonely field + lone female - does she have no sense at all?.

Great post, JFTD
		
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i dont know either Maesfen but maybe you had to be there.
its all very well making rational judgements about what the OP should or shouldnt have done but if the scenario played out as she says it did at the time when she was scared and adrenaline was kicking in if someone's approached you quickly ofcourse you might initially hold you ground and everything after that can escalate very quickly.

its all very well sitting there from the comfort of your armchair picking holes in the OP's story because 'A' wasnt close enough to 'B' in your considered opinion to make it logical.
Maybe you'd like a accident investigator's diagram drawn for you measuring the metaphorical skid marks?

amazing how judgemental some of you can be from the other side of a keyboard.


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## sunleychops (4 October 2012)

Some unbelievable stupidity in this thread


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## Twinkley Lights (4 October 2012)

RTE No one is saying she didn't trepass or that it was ok to do so simply that once the criminal assault was triggered then the civil trespass matter pretty much becomes a secondary issue. The landowner had a point to begin with and then overstepped the mark and totally changed the situation into a criminal matter.

For what it's worth I own land and wouldn't dream of being so physical or nasty.


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## ester (4 October 2012)

I don't think anyone has been suggesting trespass is ok either!


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## Littlelegs (4 October 2012)

I disagree lula, on a horse I don't feel vulnerable. I have been in fear for my life due to a man intent on harming me, but not while mounted, the fright cannot be compared. I see what you mean re not all horses being at a level you can use quarters/shoulders to push someone precisely. But under normal circumstances I would have had other options, even on a 4yr old. When it happened to me, I knew anything more strenuous than walk would have been the end of my ponies hind ligaments. So I did the only thing available. I also think your, or my, situation was different to ops, in that in ops case it wasn't obvious he was intent on harm. If he had have made an attempt to grab her then of course I'd agree to do whatever it took. But at that point, holding the rein & demanding details I wouldn't see it as a physical threat. Maybe because I have been in a dire situation minus a horse, having a horse as a weapon I don't feel vulnerable. And whatever we think, I think the non horsey would agree, most people know infantry are vulnerable to cavalry, & I suspect that's the view non horsey police or magistrates would take, person on horseback vs person on foot.


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## Caol Ila (4 October 2012)

If you believe the OP (I do), it sounds as if the farmer grabbed her rein first and then demanded her details.  I don't believe there's any law saying she has to give him that information anyway, but as soon as someone grabbed my horse, I know I'd freak and go onto full fight or flight mode.  They sure as hell wouldn't get my details.

I ask again, if someone grabbed your horse's rein and started screaming at you (even if you had accidentally strayed onto their land) and refused to let go, what would you do?


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## Equilibrium Ireland (4 October 2012)

Here is my view on trespassing. If I don't own it, I don't play with or on it. It's that simple. But in England the lines are blurry as you have certain rights on certain properties to be there even if you don't own it. That's always been confusing to me. But look it that's the way it is. But in my mind I do not feel I have a right to be anywhere I do not own, rent, or have permission. So I can't say I would ever be in that position. 

But this guy was over the top. Way over the top. He had every right to give a severe tongue lashing. He crossed the line by grabbing the horse. If said horse was anyway light in the mouth he could have gone over. I've seen stupid supposed horse people nearly flip horses over when giving someone a leg up because they're hanging on their mouths. 

We have an awful lot of people that would have done this and that because they THINK they know how to get themselves out any situation. Trust me unless it's happening to you, you will never know how you will react. The poster who said they'd rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6 is on the mark. 

When I first came to Ireland I was quite surprised that the law stated that if someone broke into my house I had to flee. Could not defend myself or I could face criminal charges. And of course be sued if the burglar was harmed. WTF is that all about? How backwards. Give the criminal all the rights. The law has been changed. And how you can get a court judgement being a freaking low life is beyond me. You get injured in a home invasion seems like to me it's a job hazard. 

Anyway, just glad OP wasn't in Texas. And it's why my rules of if I don't own I don't play in it apply. She probably would have been shot for trespassing and landowner would have been within his rights. Not saying that's right either. Just saying why I just don't trespass. 

Terri


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## fburton (4 October 2012)

RunToEarth said:



			If I walked into your home uninvited, or came into your place of work and trampled your hard work would you feel the same?
		
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I don't think _anyone_ here is advocating that. 




			When will people realise that people derive their living from land, and it is unacceptable to ride over it with no permission or due respect.
		
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I agree it it totally unacceptable to cause any kind of damage, or inconvenience to the land owner, or anything else that leads to loss of income.




			owners of land and property have a duty of care for anyone on their land, whether they are trespassing or not, we were in a legal battle a few years ago with a rider who was injured on our land without permission to be there, put yourself in that position and realise why many land owners will not tollerate trespassing.
		
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Then the law is deficient and needs to be changed. If people come on to your property and injure themselves, it's unreasonable to expect the land owner to pay. By all means require land owners to warn the public of specific hazards such as bulls, quicksand or electric lines, but to make them (the owner) responsible for any eventuality is just crazy.


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## RunToEarth (4 October 2012)

Shivvy said:



			RTE No one is saying she didn't trepass or that it was ok to do so simply that once the criminal assault was triggered then the civil trespass matter pretty much becomes a secondary issue. The landowner had a point to begin with and then overstepped the mark and totally changed the situation into a criminal matter.

For what it's worth I own land and wouldn't dream of being so physical or nasty.
		
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the land owner grabbed the horse's rein, I don't believe that is assault, and the rider reacted by hitting the land owner with a whip to the extent he has visible whelps, is this a reasonable way to react. I too have come across violence with Sans out hunting and had little difficulty walking my horse free on their grasp. Threatening behaviour does not beget physically striking someone numerous times with a whip, does it?


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## combat_claire (4 October 2012)

Shivvy said:



			I would also like to understand from the police why they are not progressing your assault claim. Go to your MP or Police complaints authority and local police authority if you have to but please don't just roll over for this. Sorry if this has already been said. Take care.
		
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That would be because the landowner never touched her - he held the horse which cannot be classed as an assault. The rider then hit the landowner multiple times with her whip. Hardly surprising that the police are following his complaint up, when the rider who was apparently so scared did not bother to call them and report the incident herself but had to be tracked down by officers.


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## lula (4 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			I disagree lula, on a horse I don't feel vulnerable. I have been in fear for my life due to a man intent on harming me, but not while mounted, the fright cannot be compared. I see what you mean re not all horses being at a level you can use quarters/shoulders to push someone precisely. But under normal circumstances I would have had other options, even on a 4yr old. When it happened to me, I knew anything more strenuous than walk would have been the end of my ponies hind ligaments. So I did the only thing available. I also think your, or my, situation was different to ops, in that in ops case it wasn't obvious he was intent on harm. If he had have made an attempt to grab her then of course I'd agree to do whatever it took. But at that point, holding the rein & demanding details I wouldn't see it as a physical threat. Maybe because I have been in a dire situation minus a horse, having a horse as a weapon I don't feel vulnerable. And whatever we think, I think the non horsey would agree, most people know infantry are vulnerable to cavalry, & I suspect that's the view non horsey police or magistrates would take, person on horseback vs person on foot.
		
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absolutely, the OP's case is different where we have no facts on to LO/shouty man's intentions we need to assume for the sake of this thread that no actual physical harm was intended  - just a very angry man grabbing at her horse detaining her - i should have made that clearer.

I was commenting on the statement generally, that you did not see consider a female rider vulnerable on horseback and when you've experienced a man tried to drag you off a horse by your leg as i have, you will know it is perfectly possible if caught unawares but the OP's situation does show how easy it is for a man on foot to approach, reach out and gain control of a horse.

However, i certainly agree that you are much safer and would much rather be on a horse in that situation that on foot as you have many more options to defend yourself and to get away.


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## Caol Ila (4 October 2012)

I'd rather be on the horse than on foot, as I'm sitting on a 1200lbs weapon when I'm on the horse.  That doesn't mean I wouldn't get scared in a dodgy situation.


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## combat_claire (4 October 2012)

JFTD said:



			I've been avoiding this thread, mostly because a lot of the opinions on here frankly terrify me.  I find it astounding that people actually believe the LO has no right to demand details from a trespasser, nor to attempt to prevent the trespasser from crossing his land at speed and potentially doing considerable damage in an attempt to avoid providing those details.  

All the LO did was tell the OP off, ask for her details and take hold of her horse's rein when she attempted to leave without giving them?  That is not assault, by any definition.  It is not unreasonable force and it is NOT disproportionately threatening, given the circumstances.  If the OP was scared, it was because she had been caught doing something wrong, not because the LO threatened to do anything untoward.  All she had to do was give her details and leave - she chose not to.  She then chose to assault the LO with her whip on his own land.  There is no question that she is in the wrong.

And, fwiw, this is also a very valid point.  The OP's comments clearly suggest she was seeking only validatory answers on this forum, she will not even contemplate that she was wrong.  If she is giving an unbiased account, I will be utterly astounded.
		
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Totally agree with this. 

Joining JRP as Devil's Advocate. To all those who think the OP is in the right. If a lone female had been riding her motorbike or quadbike on land that you own and where you keep your horses and your husband had confronted her and been hit multiple times for his trouble would you still feel the rider was in the right??


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## Caol Ila (4 October 2012)

combat_claire said:



			Totally agree with this. 

Joining JRP as Devil's Advocate. To all those who think the OP is in the right. If a lone female had been riding her motorbike or quadbike on land that you own and where you keep your horses and your husband had confronted her and been hit multiple times for his trouble would you still feel the rider was in the right??
		
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If he'd grabbed her or her motorbike, screamed at her, and refused to let go, yeah, I'd feel she had done what was necessary in a scary, threatening situation, and also I'd realise that I was married to a complete douchebag.  But it's worse than a motorbike, because I have yet to see a motorbike freak out, rear up, and flip over backwards.


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## Jericho (4 October 2012)

RunToEarth said:



			the land owner grabbed the horse's rein, I don't believe that is assault, and the rider reacted by hitting the land owner with a whip to the extent he has visible whelps, is this a reasonable way to react. I too have come across violence with Sans out hunting and had little difficulty walking my horse free on their grasp. Threatening behaviour does not beget physically striking someone numerous times with a whip, does it?
		
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I hate it when threads bring out the self righteous and contemptuous people when all the facts aren't known.  It was always going to be a contentious issue and was quite interesting to start with ... I hope OP seeks proper legal advice on this as was suggested by many people in response to her WWYD? Title.


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## fburton (4 October 2012)

combat_claire said:



			To all those who think the OP is in the right.
		
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The consensus (pretty much) appears to be that _both_ OP and rein-holder were in the wrong. While it is fun and/or instructive to debate the moral rights and wrongs, the best _practical_ advice has I believe been given by cptrayes.


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## fburton (4 October 2012)

combat_claire said:



			That would be because the landowner never touched her - he held the horse which cannot be classed as an assault.
		
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That does not mean that it wasn't unlawful. What he did could be argued to be false imprisonment (in the legal sense of the phrase).


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## Caol Ila (4 October 2012)

Yes.  The OP committed a wrong by going onto this guy's land, but he committed a bigger wrong by grabbing her rein and behaving in a scary, threatening manner when a good verbal telling-off would have done the job and been a more appropriate response.  There have been cases where riders have been pulled off their horses and assaulted.  As I said earlier, I wouldn't wait around to see whether or not he intended to haul me off the horse.


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## martlin (4 October 2012)

Amusing, or sad, really, all those ''believing'' OP and berating others for picking her story apart are perfectly happy to do the same to the other party in this conflict, who as of now has no opportunity to defend himself or even put his side of the story forward... His proof is not good enough, fabricated, his beating was deserved; but the OP? Oh no, she just rode her horse, she was scared, she defended herself...
She BELTED the man so hard with her whip that she caused welts on his back! How can you say that is not assault?


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## PandorasJar (4 October 2012)

fburton said:



			That does not mean that it wasn't unlawful. What he did could be argued to be false imprisonment (in the legal sense of the phrase).
		
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Or... Citizens arrest


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## kateo (4 October 2012)

fburton said:



			That does not mean that it wasn't unlawful. What he did could be argued to be false imprisonment (in the legal sense of the phrase).
		
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?? she could have got off the horse and left anytime .... and you can't falsely imprison a horse


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## Littlelegs (4 October 2012)

I see what you're saying lula, I just think in ops situation I wouldn't have felt vulnerable at that point, I would have waited for a sign of intent. With a man holding the rein intent on harming me, eg in your situation I don't mean I wouldn't be scared, just wouldn't feel overly vulnerable in the way I would on foot, which I should have made clearer. Just because there are more options open. I suppose it depends on personal definitions of vulnerable though. I've only ever felt vulnerable when I have, or I think, I have no options left, but I suppose every one thinks differently.


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## paulineh (4 October 2012)

Was the gate open and the OP went through it or was the access onto the land brought another way.

Although it is wrong to be on someone else's property and to go over board in defending yourself. The OP did say sorry and said they would not do it again.

If my horse was grabbed by the reins so much so that the bit came through his mouth then I would not be happy. Unfortunately my horses would retaliate themselves.

I would have reported the incident to the police myself. This can end up as a 50/50 situation. Each should apologise. Injuries (wheels on his back) to the landowner could have been there before.

As a landowner if this kind of thing happened on my land I would ask the OP why they were there and ask them to leave. If I saw them again then I would take things further.

A few years ago I had a neighbour that was always complaining about what went on in my yard. I was just coming out of the gate when she called me over and grabbed my pony's bridle. The pony flung his head in the air catching her in the face. A week later I had a letter from her solicitor saying I had hit her, untrue, but I had to go further to clear my name.

Horses are unpredictable and are flight animals. If that had happened to me (as it had to the OP) I do not know what I would do. Care for my own safety and that of my horse.

I hope this is sorted out fairly.


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## Black_Horse_White (4 October 2012)

How can it be seen as a citizens arrest when someone pointed out that trepass is not a crime? Surely you can only arrest someone when a crime has been committed. Up until this point no crime had been committed surely?


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## PandorasJar (4 October 2012)

Black_Horse_White said:



			How can it be seen as a citizens arrest when someone pointed out that trepass is not a crime? Surely you can only arrest someone when a crime has been committed. Up until this point no crime had been committed surely?
		
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You'd arrest them for an indictable offence - criminal damage.


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## flyingfeet (4 October 2012)

Lets turn this on its head: 

*"My dad who has a small farm, found a lady on a horse wandering through the land, which he was upset about as he had just undersown the fields and we've had a crap year due to the rain

This woman had been cantering through the stubble, thinking it wasn't undersown and was causing damage

He knows all the local people, so asked for her details to find out whether she was local or not 

The lady muttered that she would leave now, but Dad wanted to know so held on to her horses rein. Then the woman got really rude and hit my father multiple times so hard she left welts and galloped off" *

Obviously this not my dad, but had you seen THIS post what would you think?

When we find people off our footpath, we always ask their name and where they live - mainly to find out if they are locals, tourists or ******
People who won't tell us, generally have something to hide. 

The ones who are local we befriend, tell them where the footpath is, and in one case I told him where the kids could play so they did no harm 

I find this poster extremely arrogant and PLAYING the defense of it was "a man" 
Could have been a grey haired farmer, someones father or grandfather that she was attempting to flay and there are definitely some scaryarse fighting horsey women around. 

Why not tell him, oh I'm based just down the road at "wherever" and ASK where the best place was to ride 

NOTHING pisses a landowner off more than people storming on thinking they have a right to ride where they like, and being downright rude. 

I sometimes go offpiste, but I know all the farmers and exactly whos land I am on, if I was in the wrong place, I would apologize profusely,  find out who the person asking was and drop round a bottle to apologize. I have no issue telling them who I am and where I'm from, but then I prefer to make friends not enemies.


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## combat_claire (4 October 2012)

Well said Jen_Cots. Totally agree with everything you have said.


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## pansymouse (4 October 2012)

As a child and a teenager I was asulted twice riding.  The first time I was on a bridle path, my saddle was grabbed and the man tried to pull me off my pony so I whipped her, she kicked him and we cantered off - I was 9; 9 year olds rode on their own in the 1970s.  The second time was in the 80's and off road bikes were circling me on the common and I managed to whip one of them to get them to stop.  My horse was going crazing, he was difficult to catch and the previous owner used to get brother and his mates to round him up on their trials bikes.  I think I caught the biker on the face but did hang around to find out.


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## NeverSayNever (4 October 2012)

Jen_Cots said:



			Lets turn this on its head: 

*"My dad who has a small farm, found a lady on a horse wandering through the land, which he was upset about as he had just undersown the fields and we've had a crap year due to the rain

This woman had been cantering through the stubble, thinking it wasn't undersown and was causing damage

He knows all the local people, so asked for her details to find out whether she was local or not 

The lady muttered that she would leave now, but Dad wanted to know so held on to her horses rein. Then the woman got really rude and hit my father multiple times so hard she left welts and galloped off" *

Obviously this not my dad, but had you seen THIS post what would you think?

When we find people off our footpath, we always ask their name and where they live - mainly to find out if they are locals, tourists or ******
People who won't tell us, generally have something to hide. 

The ones who are local we befriend, tell them where the footpath is, and in one case I told him where the kids could play so they did no harm 

I find this poster extremely arrogant and PLAYING the defense of it was "a man" 
Could have been a grey haired farmer, someones father or grandfather that she was attempting to flay and there are definitely some scaryarse fighting horsey women around. 

Why not tell him, oh I'm based just down the road at "wherever" and ASK where the best place was to ride 

NOTHING pisses a landowner off more than people storming on thinking they have a right to ride where they like, and being downright rude. 

I sometimes go offpiste, but I know all the farmers and exactly whos land I am on, if I was in the wrong place, I would apologize profusely,  find out who the person asking was and drop round a bottle to apologize. I have no issue telling them who I am and where I'm from, but then I prefer to make friends not enemies.
		
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id have felt sorry for your father but would have said his actions in grabbing her rein were ill advised and something he had no right to do!!  If she had refused to give her details then your father should have phoned the police there and then to report the damage. Similarly however the rider should have phoned the police asap. Look at it this way, in the case of a car accident you have to provide your details but the first hint of any trouble youd be ringing the police, not taking matters into to your own hands by seizing keys or whatever, that would just be downright stupid and asking for conflict.


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## kateo (4 October 2012)

PandorasJar said:



			You'd arrest them for an indictable offence - criminal damage.
		
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where was the damage?


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## yannialice (4 October 2012)

What happened is awful, If you are trespassing or not. 
I live in Scotland and we have the right to roam. However before that act came in we always phone or contacted the landowners to see if it is alright to ride on the land. and actually some places still phone now, You have to remember alot of landowners are gun toting so always good to keep on their good side. 

I think that maybe you should have asked to go on his land but his behaviour was out of order and you should press charges. just to give him a fright so he won't do it again if nothing else.


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## martlin (4 October 2012)

kateo said:



			where was the damage?
		
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undersown/directly drilled crops? hoofprints in a buffer strip? the possibilities are endless and it is a reasonable course of action to ask for trespasser's details in order to bring a case against them


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## Littlelegs (4 October 2012)

Excellent post Jen cots.


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## martlin (4 October 2012)

yannialice said:



			What happened is awful, If you are trespassing or not. 
I live in Scotland and we have the right to roam. However before that act came in we always phone or contacted the landowners to see if it is alright to ride on the land. and actually some places still phone now, You have to remember alot of landowners are gun toting so always good to keep on their good side. 

I think that maybe you should have asked to go on his land but his behaviour was out of order and you should press charges. just to give him a fright so he won't do it again if nothing else.
		
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Charges for what?


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## PandorasJar (4 October 2012)

kateo said:



			where was the damage?
		
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Depends what she was riding through. 

The whole lot will come down to who has the better lawyer, who's in the jury and who comes across better on the day if OP doesn't bother showing to the meeting. 

Personally I'd rather go to a meeting, show remorse and explain the situation. Be sickly sweet and go home knowing it was over. I wouldn't do it without legal advice so I didn't drop myself in for further charges though.


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## cptrayes (4 October 2012)

Shivvy said:



			Cptrayes - Sadly this is incorrect to as whilst RJ seeks to avoid criminalisation it can if required support a reduced penalty when action is still justified.  That was my point in advising OP to talk to a lawyer first.
		
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In the context of what the OP wrote




			Police have arranged me to meet the man at a "restorative justice" session this week. I have to apologise and listen to the man.
		
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I do not believe that the Police are suggesting a Conditional Caution or any other outcome than that if she apologises this will go no further.

If she has been told this, then my advice would remain, swallow your pride and apologise.

The very fact that she is being offered a Restorative Justice meeting for  a serious assault carrying a maximum penalty of 6 months custody shows, in my view, that they have already taken into account her fear in the situation, and so had the landowner who has accepted that outcome. Because let's not forget that he has to agree to this as well.

Would you seriously support, on the evidence available, her trying to fight out her innocence in court? And if not, there is zero point on spending any money on seeing a lawyer.


OP I'm not much interested in whether you were justified in what you did, to be honest, as I wasn't there and can't judge. But I am trying to save you from further upset and expense. Man up. Apologise. It's free.


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## kateo (4 October 2012)

martlin said:



			undersown/directly drilled crops? hoofprints in a buffer strip? the possibilities are endless and it is a reasonable course of action to ask for trespasser's details in order to bring a case against them
		
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sorry, I wasn't very clear - I agree, what I meant was where was the criminal damage for an arrest to be made as someone had suggested?


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## kateo (4 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			In the context of what the OP wrote



I do not believe that the Police are suggesting a Conditional Caution or any other outcome than that if she apologises this will go no further.

If she has been told this, then my advice would remain, swallow your pride and apologise.

The very fact that she is being offered a Restorative Justice meeting for  a serious assault carrying a maximum penalty of 6 months custody shows, in my view, that they have already taken into account her fear in the situation, and so had the landowner who has accepted that outcome. Because let's not forget that he has to agree to this as well.

Would you seriously support, on the evidence available, her trying to fight out her innocence in court? And if not, there is zero point on spending any money on seeing a lawyer.


OP I'm not much interested in whether you were justified in what you did, to be honest, as I wasn't there and can't judge. But I am trying to save you from further upset and expense. Man up. Apologise. It's free.
		
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does it go on a criminal record and would he then find it easier to sue her in civil courts for any damage if she has admitted guilt?


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## Caol Ila (4 October 2012)

Citizen's arrest my arse.  I just looked at the legal requirements of one and you can't have _post hoc_ citizen's arrests.  You can't detain or restrain someone and then claim at a later date (perhaps after they've assaulted you to free themselves) that you were doing a citizen's arrest because they were damaging your property.  You have to tell the person at the time you are detaining them what you are doing, why you're doing it, and immediately take them to a magistrate or police station.  There also has to be some good reason why you did not call the police in the first place and had to take matters into your own hands.

It also has to be for an indictable offense.


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## charlie76 (4 October 2012)

My two pence worth,,  how can the land owner (if indeed he was the land owner- sorry if I missed this bit) prove the marks were caused by the original poster as there were no witness?
also,  put yourself in her situation.  On your own,  middle of no where and a random stranger starts rating at you and grabs your horse and will not let go.
I simply refuse to believe that 90% of you would not have resorted to self defence,  a instinctive button would flick in your brains.  She had no idea who this person was and what his next move would have been,  it could well be to assault her.  
We all are in built with a fight or flight mechanism when scared.  The flight option had been removed until he was made to let go.  She didn't continue to hit him once she was able to take flight.  
I don't agree with her trespassing,  of course,  but the landowner was as much in the wrong


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## mcnaughty (4 October 2012)

scarymare said:



			.  I'd be interested to know how old the OP is.  I'm sat here on my pedestal because I know I would have been able to de-escalate and diffuse the situation but perhaps the OP just hasn't yet developed those skills which actually isn't her fault, most of us in our teens and 20's are hotheads (not sure I'd ever have whipped a stranger though).
		
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OP said she spoke to her husband so would assume she is of a reasonably sensible age.  She is lucky the landowner didn't take the crop off her and give her a bloody good hiding back!


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## martlin (4 October 2012)

The only hitch is, he didn't touch her, he grabbed the horse's rein...


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## mcnaughty (4 October 2012)

Elsbells said:



			he attacked her! In that case and if she was my daughter I would of expected her to do anything she could to get away, even violence as he could of been anyone, done anything and whose to say he wouldn't of??

Shame the OP didn't report the attack.
		
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He didn't attack her - he held the horse's rein - probably to stop her buggering off into the distance to come back and trespass again - OP won't be doing anything that silly for a while I would assume.


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## fuffy (4 October 2012)

Not read all of the responses here but have been in a similar position where landowners believe they can be a law unto themselves and any court would agree that this is not the case.This is a step too far and a frightening event for  the rider. Landowner can only  ask trespassers to leave land NOT take their details NOR restrict or even touch any part of horse or  rider... this is just bullying


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## JFTDWS (4 October 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			Yes.  The OP committed a wrong by going onto this guy's land, but he committed a bigger wrong by grabbing her rein and *behaving in a scary, threatening manner *when a good verbal telling-off would have done the job and been a more appropriate response.  There have been cases where riders have been pulled off their horses and assaulted.  As I said earlier, I wouldn't wait around to see whether or not he intended to haul me off the horse.
		
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Behaving in a "scary" manner is not illegal - I am frequently told I am scary by people who don't know me well.  Nobody yet has managed to pursue successful legal action against me   grabbing her horse's rein is also not in itself a necessarily aggressive action - merely a restraining action - though the OP may have interpreted it differently.

Fear of an extreme situation arising does not justify people in acting abusively without any significant cause.  In my opinion, restraining her horse by the rein, while asking for her details, is not significant cause to presume he will proceed to pull her from her horse and physically assault her.


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## fburton (4 October 2012)

mcnaughty said:



			He didn't attack her - he held the horse's rein - probably to stop her buggering off into the distance ...
		
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So that he could start to behave in a threatening manner? Right.


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## Pale Rider (4 October 2012)

An assault is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to apprehend the immediate infliction of unlawful force.

S29 Criminal Justice Act 1988.

I'd say your landowner was guilty of this offence.

What happened after is justified because of his actions initially.


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## RunToEarth (4 October 2012)

Jericho said:



			I hate it when threads bring out the self righteous and contemptuous people when all the facts aren't known.  It was always going to be a contentious issue and was quite interesting to start with ... I hope OP seeks proper legal advice on this as was suggested by many people in response to her WWYD? Title.
		
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why am I self righteous? Do you believe that hitting someone numerous times with your whip to the point where that person is left with lasting physical marks is a reasonable, rational response to someone grabbing your horses reins? 

Honestly, you wonder why horsey women get a name for being neurotic...


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## cronkmooar (4 October 2012)

I only read the first few pages so this might have already been touched on:

Unlike everyone else I am not going to comment on the rights and wrongs on who did what, there are enough opinions on that already!

However, I do think you need to obtain legal advice BEFORE apologising for anything.

If you apologise this may be be taken as an admission of guilt and you may end up cautioned for assault.

If you are cautioned it will come up on any criminal checks (don't know what yours are called in the UK) that are carried out on you, which might cause you even bigger problems in the future.

Please take appropriate advice before doing anything.


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## lhotse (4 October 2012)

Having been in a situation where a man tried to grab my horse's reins on an isolated lane, I can honestly say that I would do everything in my power to avoid being in that situation. Until it actually happens to you, it's easy to say that she should have reacted differently. In my case, I used my horse to her best advantage, told the man she kicked and charged past him, if she had run over him, I would have left him to rot!


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## fburton (4 October 2012)

JFTD said:



			Behaving in a "scary" manner is not illegal -
		
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If I were to come up to you while you were riding, take hold of the reins to stop you getting away, start to give you a lecture on road safety and, when you complained, shouted at you to f*ing shut up and listen to me, what would you do? And would my action be considered unlawful? Not according to some here, apparently. The fact that OP did something wrong and you didn't wouldn't alter the legality of my action, surely?


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## lula (4 October 2012)

PandorasJar said:



			Or... Citizens arrest
		
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LO couldnt make a citizen's arrest on what isnt a criminal matter!! 
trespassing is civil


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## Caol Ila (4 October 2012)

No one has answered my earlier question.

If someone grabbed your horse's rein, refused to let go when you repeatedly asked them to do so,  screamed and swore at you demanding your details, what would you do?  

Not to mention, whoever would grab a horse's reins and hauls on their mouth in a fit of rage is asking for it because horses are powerful flight animals. In that situation, even the most well trained horse could get scared and rear, kick, run you over, anything.  If someone did that to me, I wouldn't need the whip.  As I said, my horse would probably take care of it and it might hurt more than a riding whip.  

Also, to whoever said that it did not constitute false imprisonment or unlawful restraint because she could have dismounted her horse and left on foot: the law here makes it plain that if the person has means of escape but it's unreasonable for them to take it, then the restraint is still unlawful.  I would say that it's unreasonable for the rider to jump off her horse and run away on foot, leaving herself potentially miles from home, more vulnerable because she's on foot, and of course, abandoning her horse with the irate farmer!


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## lhotse (4 October 2012)

See my post above!


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## martlin (4 October 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			No one has answered my earlier question.

If someone grabbed your horse's rein, refused to let go when you repeatedly asked them to do so,  screamed at you demanding your details, what would you do?
		
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Give them my details in the hope that they will let me go then.


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## Caol Ila (4 October 2012)

lhotse, I mean many of the posters who think the rider was completely out of line in defending herself have not answered my question.


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## Littlelegs (4 October 2012)

Would depend why. In ops case, I would have given him my details. If it was random nutter approaching me for no good reason where I had good cause to believe he was likely to assault me, I would use the horse as a weapon.


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## lhotse (4 October 2012)

Ahh, have skipped a fair few pages so missed the original question! Whoops


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## JFTDWS (4 October 2012)

fburton said:



			If I were to come up to you while you were riding, take hold of the reins to stop you getting away, start to give you a lecture on road safety and, when you complained, shouted at you to f*ing shut up and listen to me, what would you do? And would my action be considered unlawful? Not according to some here, apparently. The fact that OP did something wrong and you didn't wouldn't alter the legality of my action, surely?
		
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Completely irrelevant since I am (presumably) not infringing any road laws and you are not in a position of authority or right to complain, unlike the case with the OP.  

If I were, for example, riding a horse at an RS having chosen to mount and ride without a hat on, and a member of staff approached me, took hold of my horse and yelled /swore at me to get off and get my hat before continuing, I would think they were probably justified in their actions.  I think that is a more relevant analogy...

So yes, I do think it is relevant that 
a) the OP was in the wrong, legally
b) the "grabber" was not a random passer by, but one in a position of authority or interest - since he owns the land
c) the OP's reaction was, in my opinion, not in keeping with the actions of the LO. 

I'd like to reiterate again, that according to the information we have been given, at no point, despite being close enough to hold the horse's rein, did this man attempt to touch, strike or in anyway assault the OP.  

The OP however thought that a significant physical response was justified.


CI, I didn't answer your question as I thought it was patently obvious.  If you have been caught out in wrong doing, you give your details.  If you really didn't want to, you make them up.  It's not rocket science.  I would also not leap to physical assault, without attempting to defuse the situation.  If you're dealing with a genuine nutjob, who is actually assaulting you (personally, not holding on to your horse), then like littlelegs, I would use my horse's size and skills.  He will rear on command.


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## fburton (4 October 2012)

martlin said:



			Give them my details in the hope that they will let me go then.
		
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In OP's case, a bit of forelock touching probably wouldn't have gone amiss either, I expect (irrespective of whether it was appropriate or not).


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## martlin (4 October 2012)

fburton said:



			In OP's case, a bit of forelock touching probably wouldn't have gone amiss either, I expect (irrespective of whether it was appropriate or not).
		
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Probably not, but the LO has not assaulted OP, he has been rude to her... OP, on the other hand, has committed trespass, been rude/sarcastic when challenged and to top it off, has physically assaulted the LO. Go figure.


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## scarymare (4 October 2012)

mcnaughty said:



			OP said she spoke to her husband so would assume she is of a reasonably sensible age.  She is lucky the landowner didn't take the crop off her and give her a bloody good hiding back!
		
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LOL - Blimey the OP is married..... 50 shades of something comes to mind.... Off to write a bestseller before Jilly Cooper beats me to it.


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## fburton (4 October 2012)

JFTD said:



			If I were, for example, riding a horse at an RS having chosen to mount and ride without a hat on, and a member of staff approached me, took hold of my horse and yelled /swore at me to get off and get my hat before continuing, I would think they were probably justified in their actions.  I think that is a more relevant analogy...
		
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I agree it's a better analogy, thank you. So if you said you would go and get your hat, but the staff member continue to hold on to you and shout and swear, would you not start to become just a little bit concerned about your safety? In your example, you presumably knew that the person was a member of staff, but what if OP wasn't sure who this man was? Personally, I'd want to be sure of who I was speaking to before giving them my details, _especially_ if they were behaving in a threatening manner.

Yes, I know the whole thing is hypothetical - we only have one person's word for what happened and they have a vested interest! 




			The OP however thought that a significant physical response was justified.
		
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Indeed she has said as much.


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## Pale Rider (4 October 2012)

Lol, Scarymare, very funny.

Marlin, the LO has assaulted her, S39 says so.


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## fburton (4 October 2012)

mcnaughty said:



			She is lucky the landowner didn't take the crop off her and give her a bloody good hiding back!
		
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Do you believe he would have been justified in doing that? Go on, tell us what you really think!


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## Littlelegs (4 October 2012)

I think as we have nothing else to go on there's a lot to be said for the phrases op has used. There's no mention of getting lost or being mistaken, just that she was riding on land cos there was no private sign. Which could possibly mean op is in the habit of doing so & Lo had enough. Plus op states he took the rein & asked for her details, he only started shouting & swearing after she refused. So no evidence to support him being intent on assaulting her.


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## mcnaughty (4 October 2012)

fburton said:



			So that he could start to behave in a threatening manner? Right.
		
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As none of us were there, we can only assume he was behaving in a threatening manner but the facts were that OP was trespassing and assaulted the LO.  Lets not allow the facts to get in the way of a good story eh......


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## siennamum (4 October 2012)

mcnaughty said:



			As none of us were there, we can only assume he was behaving in a threatening manner but the facts were that OP was trespassing and assaulted the LO.  Lets not allow the facts to get in the way of a good story eh......
		
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Yes but to be fair tha works both ways. To read some of these posts the farmer was a poor old salt of the earth yeoman, assaulted by a smart arsed young whippersnapper in very tight breeches and with a penchant for random assaults. The whole thread is frankly ludicrous, though entertaining, the OP is long gone - and who can blame her, and people evidently have very fevered imaginations on here.


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## combat_claire (4 October 2012)

scarymare said:



			LOL - Blimey the OP is married..... 50 shades of something comes to mind.... Off to write a bestseller before Jilly Cooper beats me to it.
		
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An image of Jilly Cooper thrashing you with a riding crop has just popped into my mind :-O


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## PandorasJar (4 October 2012)

lula said:



			LO couldnt make a citizen's arrest on what isnt a criminal matter!! 
trespassing is civil
		
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1.1 Damage by trespassers
Any damage done by a trespasser while trespassing may amount to the offence of criminal damage. The elements of that offence are set out in section 1 of the Criminal Damage Act 1971:
A person who without lawful excuse destroys or damages any property belonging to another intending to destroy or damage any such property or being reckless as to whether such property would be destroyed or damaged shall be guilty of an offence.


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## fburton (4 October 2012)

siennamum said:



			The whole thread is frankly ludicrous, though entertaining
		
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Exactly. On top of which, OP has received some good advice (to take legal advice).


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## lhotse (4 October 2012)

siennamum said:



			Yes but to be fair tha works both ways. To read some of these posts the farmer was a poor old salt of the earth yeoman, assaulted by a smart arsed young whippersnapper in very tight breeches and with a penchant for random assaults. The whole thread is frankly ludicrous, though entertaining, the OP is long gone - and who can blame her, and people evidently have very fevered imaginations on here.
		
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Surely he should have been paying her for her services then!!!


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## MerrySherryRider (4 October 2012)

So listening to some of these posts, it seems that its ok to ride wherever you fancy and if some farmer has the cheek to ask who you are and holds on to your reins to stop you riding off,because you don't want to listen to a telling off, you can thrash him with your whip so hard that it leaves welts ?

Nice one, won't bother paying £15 for the local farm ride or buying a permit to ride on the local farm estate then.

Is it just farmers we can beat or can it be anyone who annoys us ?


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## martlin (4 October 2012)

horserider said:



			So listening to some of these posts, it seems that its ok to ride wherever you fancy and if some farmer has the cheek to ask who you are and holds on to your reins to stop you riding off,because you don't want to listen to a telling off, you can thrash him with your whip so hard that it leaves welts ?

Nice one, won't bother paying £15 for the local farm ride or buying a permit to ride on the local farm estate then.

Is it just farmers we can beat or can it be anyone who annoys us ?
		
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I think it applies to all land owners, farmers or not


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## combat_claire (4 October 2012)

martlin said:



			I think it applies to all land owners, farmers or not 

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What about us poor land agents and estate managers. Are we to live in terror of being assaulted by the equestrian equivalent of the Ramblers' Society!?


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## fburton (4 October 2012)

horserider said:



			So listening to some of these posts, it seems that its ok to ride wherever you fancy
		
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I don't think anyone is claiming that.


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## Littlelegs (4 October 2012)

Oh good, loving horseriders take on right to roam. Does it apply to the arena near me, I fancy using it free of charge? Also an adventure playground I take daughter to, every time I'm there I find myself eyeing up the strides to logs, ditches, banks etc. If park keeper objects or the guy that owns the arena I have the right to defend myself!


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## yannialice (4 October 2012)

The thing that concerns me is that the way the man behaved was just plain wrong. 
I just spoke to a policeman and he said that if you were going to comply then you were in the right and he was wrong. this is fun!!! but there are no witnesses.


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## indie999 (4 October 2012)

combat_claire said:



			What about us poor land agents and estate managers. Are we to live in terror of being assaulted by the equestrian equivalent of the Ramblers' Society!?
		
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Yes I can bring my lunging whip. One problem I dont have a horse anymore!


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## martlin (4 October 2012)

combat_claire said:



			What about us poor land agents and estate managers. Are we to live in terror of being assaulted by the equestrian equivalent of the Ramblers' Society!?
		
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Awww, sorry to exclude you  Of course it applies to you, too. Actually, it applies to ANYBODY daring to challenge trespassers


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## martlin (4 October 2012)

yannialice said:



			The thing that concerns me is that the way the man behaved was just plain wrong. 
I just spoke to a policeman and he said that if you were going to comply then you were in the right and he was wrong. this is fun!!! but there are no witnesses.
		
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And the way the OP behaved was just fine, was it?
Admittedly, getting shouty and angry was not the best way to tackle the situation, but to get whipped for his efforts was waaay past the line of reasonable, surely?


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## Caol Ila (4 October 2012)

The law states that if a land owner catches a trespasser on their land, they of course should ask the person to leave.  If the trespasser refuses, you can use "reasonable" force to eject them from your land.  You are not entitled to assault or harm them in anyway.  I do not believe you are entitled to the person's details either, especially if they have already agreed to leave the property.  I'm trying to see if there's any case law on point here.  

The Guardian tells me that there was a case where a trespasser put a ladder against a house.  The house's owner shook and overturned the ladder and threw the intruder to the ground.  The court ruled that this was excessive force even though the intruder was not injured.  

So to all you landowners: you definitely have the right to shout at the person to leave. If they refuse, you have the right to physically remove them, so long as you use "reasonable" (hah -- whatever that means) force.  You may or may not have a right to know where they live but I truly doubt you have the right to physically restrain them AFTER they have agreed to leave your property.


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## MerrySherryRider (4 October 2012)

fburton said:



			I don't think anyone is claiming that.
		
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Ah, but leaves a dilemma, if OP hadn't been riding on private land she wouldn't have got into a dispute with the farmer which led to him becoming frustrated because she wanted to ride away anonymously and kept repeating 'let go of my reins'.
Doesn't seem that frightened, more obtuse. 

Of course, those that think the farmer was wrong, perhaps the alternative senerio would be better-

Farmer shouts to rider, 'what are you doing'.
'Riding' She replies.

'Oh, thank you Miss'. Farmer doffs his cap as Miss gallops off splattering mud in his face.

I like the 2nd one better.


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## honetpot (4 October 2012)

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/trespass_and_nuisance_on_land/#a01
From what I can make out you care of sue if they in the civil courts if,they have damaged the land; or 
they have used threatening, abusive or insulting behaviour to the occupier, the occupier's family, employees or agents; or 
between them they have 6 or more vehicles on the land. 
 so if you wandered or continued to wander on someones land they would have to prove you intended or have caused damage. Its up to the landowner to keep unwanted people out with gates lockes fences etc.http://www.dailypost.co.uk/farming-...eal-with-fly-grazing-problems-55578-30596935/
  If your dog is loose in your garden and it bites the postman you are liable unless you have put up a warning sign. You can not use CCTV footage in court unless you have  put up warning signs. 
  If someone squats on your land there are procedures to go through before getting them off and this applies to everyone. An Englishmans home is not his castle and you have to follow the law wether you think it right or wrong. I own land and unfortuately I have been in the position to have to find this out.
My other thought did she know this man? If I was on my own and any man approached me I would be wary and if he grabbed hold of me or my horse I would be fearful. You would have no way of knowing if whatever he said was true and I would have probabely used what ever means to get away.
  I have to say this is a bit bit boring for Jilly C, the farmer would have to look like Colin Firth in a wet shirt and......


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## Hackie (4 October 2012)

horserider said:



			So listening to some of these posts, it seems that its ok to ride wherever you fancy and if some farmer has the cheek to ask who you are and holds on to your reins to stop you riding off,because you don't want to listen to a telling off, you can thrash him with your whip so hard that it leaves welts ?
		
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Are you seriously suggesting that its okay to physically restrain a stranger, simply because you want to give them a telling off???  

It doesn't seem like the OP had done any damage, or surely this would have been brought up by the police when they requested her attendence at the mediation, so the 'citizens arest' theory looks a bit shaky.  Or he would have told her that was why he was restraining her at the time, surely?

Lets not even consider that holding a horse by the reins like that can upset it and cause and accident!!


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## PandorasJar (4 October 2012)

honetpot said:



			If your dog is loose in your garden and it bites the postman you are liable unless you have put up a warning sign.
		
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Be very very careful with warning signs.
Dog loose on grounds is okay. Dangerous dog on site admits liability etc.
Thread about it on here with horses and what is on the back of fluorescent jackets.



Caol Ila said:



			So to all you landowners: you definitely have the right to shout at the person to leave. If they refuse, you have the right to physically remove them, so long as you use "reasonable" (hah -- whatever that means) force.  You may or may not have a right to know where they live but I truly doubt you have the right to physically restrain them AFTER they have agreed to leave your property.
		
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And being that there are no witnesses, this will come down to whoever is more convincing in their version of events on the day...


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## combat_claire (4 October 2012)

martlin said:



			Awww, sorry to exclude you  Of course it applies to you, too. Actually, it applies to ANYBODY daring to challenge trespassers 

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I may start carrying my hunting whip on farm inspections - just to be on the safe side!!


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## Hippona (4 October 2012)

I don't think OP was right to be where she was....personally if I had got lost or ended up in the wrong place I would have politely said so, asked for the quickest way home and left. I'm not sure I would have given my details....I'm a bit funny about about giving personal details out at the best of times, so to give them to someone who 'said' he was the landowner....not sure really.

The force of the whip does seem excessive, if it left wheals and welts.

However....think of it this way. If the landowner had reached in and taken your car keys and prevented you from leaving, or put his hands on your bike handles etc and prevented you from leaving, would this be OK? I don't think so TBH.

I think it was a situation which escalated, and could easily have not done so. A good bit of grovelling by the OP- who was quite clearly somewhere she shouldn't have been would have gone a long way.


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## Luci07 (4 October 2012)

Only time I did get really badly lost ( new yard, spooked horse courtesey of hikers asking me directions and then flapping a large map in said horses face ) I DID end up in someone's garden. 

It's called desperation and saddle sore. The lady was the first living soul I had seen for nearly 3 hours!


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## MerrySherryRider (4 October 2012)

Of course the landowner could have been holding the rein to steady the horse and prevent himself from being injured. 
 On stopping an unknown rider, I think I'd be wary about being knocked over by the horse too as she tried to ride off.


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## birchave0 (4 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			I was hacking on land when a man drove up in a truck and said 'what are you doing here?'
I said "riding" he said "you shouldn't be here" I said "sorry I'll leave now and not come back" but he had grabbed my horses' right rein. 

There are no signs on the land saying 'private' or similar. 

The man asked me to give him my details, I refused and asked repeatedly, over and over, politely for him to release my horses' rein. He did not. He started to shout at me "Give me your ****ing details". Horse was freaking, swishing his tail, raising his head. The man was pulling on the right rein so hard the bit was practically all the way through the horses' mouth. 
I thought he might rear up. I was very very scared of this man, I was alone miles from anywhere. 

So, I hit the man with my crop until he let go. My horse immediately galloped off (scared), the man followed hot on my heels and chased us, shouting and swearing "i'm gonna do you for assult" and generally being horrid. I ignored him and went home. 

Police came a week or so later, man is charging me with assult. He showed police the welts on his back. 

I admitted I ought not to have been there but there are no signs. I told them how scared I was and that it was dangerous him pulling on the rein and scaring my horse. 
Police have arranged me to meet the man at a "restorative justice" session this week. I have to apologise and listen to the man. 

What I want is an apology from HIM. He grabbed my horse for no reason and if he had let go when I asked him to repeatedly, none of this would've happened. 

I know I should not have hit him but I was exceptionally frightened and did not know if he or me or my horse would be injured if horse reared which he could easily have done. 

It is a big mess and I am angry at the police for saying the man did not assult my horse - apparently no such offense exists. 
My husband is furious and thinks I should charge the man with assult, after all he grabbed my horse after I said I was sorry and was leaving etc. 

So, please advice me. Should I go to this restorative justice session and accept the blame or see a lawyer. I am very upset.
		
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see I'm a little confused......

was he in or out of his truck when grabbed the horse's rein?
was he in or out of the truck when you struck him?
did he pursue you in the truck or on foot?
If you gave no details how did the police contact you or are known to the land owner?

I believe there may be more to this than meets the eye, and certainly only one side of the story.
And trespass is trespass no matter how you dress it up, it may not be a criminal offence but riding on and damaging private land is criminal damage.

I would go cap in hand and apologise.

We had an incident a few years ago with my OH
he was ditching on the side of a field which does have a footpath through it
a walker with a dog walked up the path, through the field and then continued around onto another path which is not part of the farm.
She then climbed the embankment at the edge of the field so she could see what my OH was doing with his tractor.  By doing this she left the second public footpath, crossed the border onto the private land of the farm.  She continued further only to be pulled into the ditch by the dog she had who wanted a closer look!

The ditch was over 6 feet deep!
My OH pulled up in the tractor, called her a silly old B****** and drove off!
She rang the police who helped her out of the ditch, and then proceeded to tell her that she owed my OH an apology for trespassing.  He in turn apologised for calling her the above lol
But basically the police said she should not have been there, end of
She was known to us and continued to walk her dog all over the farmland despite being asked not to.

I've not seen her since.....


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## JFTDWS (4 October 2012)

fburton said:



			I agree it's a better analogy, thank you. So if you said you would go and get your hat, *but the staff member continue to hold on to you and shout and swear, would you not start to become just a little bit concerned about your safety?* In your example, you presumably knew that the person was a member of staff, but what if OP wasn't sure who this man was? Personally, I'd want to be sure of who I was speaking to before giving them my details, _especially_ if they were behaving in a threatening manner.
		
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Well, I think for my analogy to be comprable to the OP's situation, the RI would be demanding my details - presumably so that in future I could be prevented from repeating the offence, or reprimanded for my behaviour depending on the nature of my relationship with the RS, so no, I wouldn't be overly concerned for my safety.  I might not like it, and I might be worried about the repercussions, but not fear for my safety. But, even if I were scared, that doesn't mean the RI is behaving illegally, or doing anything wrong - they are just trying to stop me from breaking the rules again.

As for not knowing who the "LO" was, I think if I were genuinely concerned on that score, I would give false details.   I am still confused as to why the OP didn't do this before leathering him!  

Or I might offer to swap details, amid an attempt to discuss the situation calmly and rationally (we don't know how the LO was really acting, or how he would have reacted to a calm, polite response).


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## Pale Rider (4 October 2012)

I think this LO got what he deserves, putting his hands on the reins of a horse with a young woman rider out in the country, must have frightened her to death. The man is obviously a knobhead, if he had done this to my OH, he'd know what pain is, well done OP.


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## fburton (4 October 2012)

JFTD said:



			Or I might offer to swap details, amid an attempt to discuss the situation calmly and rationally (we don't know how the LO was really acting, or how he would have reacted to a calm, polite response).
		
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Good suggestion. It's a pity that emotions escalated to the extent they reportedly did.


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## combat_claire (4 October 2012)

birchave0 said:



			.

I've not seen her since..... 

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Have you checked the ditches recently!!?


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## fburton (4 October 2012)

combat_claire said:



			Have you checked the ditches recently!!?
		
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Oh dear, had to laugh at that.


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## G&T (4 October 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			The thrashed back of the landowner could have been achieved anywhere, for all you know his wife gave him a smacking the night before.
		
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PMSL at this!!!


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## tafyx (4 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Oh good, loving horseriders take on right to roam. Does it apply to the arena near me, I fancy using it free of charge? Also an adventure playground I take daughter to, every time I'm there I find myself eyeing up the strides to logs, ditches, banks etc. If park keeper objects or the guy that owns the arena I have the right to defend myself!
		
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haha, i keep eyeing up the local golf courses.  they look good for a jolly round.


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## birchave0 (4 October 2012)

combat_claire said:



			Have you checked the ditches recently!!?
		
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you have me worried now! he he


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## Elsbells (4 October 2012)

RunToEarth said:



			the land owner grabbed the horse's rein, I don't believe that is assault, and the rider reacted by hitting the land owner with a whip to the extent he has visible whelps, is this a reasonable way to react. I too have come across violence with Sans out hunting and had little difficulty walking my horse free on their grasp. Threatening behaviour does not beget physically striking someone numerous times with a whip, does it?
		
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OK, but he could of been lying? He was a man in a field behaving aggressively and perhaps her horse wasn't so well schooled to push on and away? I for one would of been terrified and if he had behaved like that towards me or my horse, I would of done something/anything tbh.


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## MerrySherryRider (4 October 2012)

tafyx said:



			haha, i keep eyeing up the local golf courses.  they look good for a jolly round. 

Click to expand...


 School playing fields would be good too. Just weave around the kids.


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## Blurr (4 October 2012)

I've been reading this with interest.  Some replies surprise me.  One says that the rider was not being restrained, the horse was and the rider could have got off.  Really?  Would the LO have kept hold of the horse (who was hardly likely to answer his question) or gone after the rider (now even more vulnerable on foot)?

There's lots of mention of damage to land.  The OP does not say she was damaging land so it's a bit of a leap to say she was.

My OH's advice, should I or my horse be restrained (it amounts to the same thing in my eyes) is not to use the floppy end of the whip.  No.  Turn it around and crack them round the head with the hard end.  Hasten to add I don't ride where I shouldn't and never carry a whip.

I'll now quote my OH directly, please don't shoot the messenger!  "So some geezer forcibly stops her from leaving which means he's starting a fight, gets his ass whooped by a woman then goes bleating to the rozzers - what a 'pet cat' (my interpretation of his rather more colourful term)".


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2012)

Just so you all know the other side of the story;


The farmer in question is a gentleman who is old enough to be the grandfather to a grown up grand child. 

He is very nice and he is horsey and understanding. If asked for permission to ride on the land it would have been granted. No such permission was sought.

He really is covered in whip marks. 

The OP has a bit of a rep for being an inconsiderate hacker. 

Make of that what you will. I think the OP should consider themselves lucky they haven't been charged with assault and should damn well know better than to go riding on private land without asking first.


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## paulineh (4 October 2012)

Oh what the internet can do.


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## skint1 (4 October 2012)

jesstickle said:



			Just so you all know the other side of the story;


The farmer in question is a gentleman who is old enough to be the grandfather to a grown up grand child. 

He is very nice and he is horsey and understanding. If asked for permission to ride on the land it would have been granted. No such permission was sought.

He really is covered in whip marks. 

The OP has a bit of a rep for being an inconsiderate hacker. 

Make of that what you will. I think the OP should consider themselves lucky they haven't been charged with assault and should damn well know better than to go riding on private land without asking first.
		
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hmm, I wonder if perhaps the OP should consider apologising


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2012)

paulineh said:



			Oh what the internet can do.
		
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Well, in fairness it is only  my opinion that he is nice and I don't know him as a best friend but he was never anything other than polite to me when I dropped said grandchild home from work...

And no, I didn't get the other side of the story from the grandchild.


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## MerrySherryRider (4 October 2012)

Not surprised, there were enough clues in the original post.


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## indie999 (4 October 2012)

This thread & post must be a record! Interesting though. Hope a report on the outcome following this thread?


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## kateo (4 October 2012)

Blurr said:



			I've been reading this with interest.  Some replies surprise me.  One says that the rider was not being restrained, the horse was and the rider could have got off.  Really?  Would the LO have kept hold of the horse (who was hardly likely to answer his question) or gone after the rider (now even more vulnerable on foot)?
		
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what I actually said was that it didn't amount to false imprisonment, slightly different


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## JFTDWS (4 October 2012)

Blurr said:



			There's lots of mention of damage to land.  The OP does not say she was damaging land so it's a bit of a leap to say she was.
		
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Is it?  It's been very wet for the past couple of weeks in East Anglia, and even walking on grass margins, crop fields, hay fields etc will cause damage - and we have no reason to believe the OP limited herself to walk.  She was certainly happy to gallop off after the incident.


Ah Jess, I knew someone would come along sooner or later with the other side to the story.


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## rockysmum (4 October 2012)

Intentional Harassment, Alarm or Distress
Public Order Act 1986, s4A(1)

A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, OR displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.

Points to prove:

S4A(1)(a)

Used threatening/abusive/insulting words/behaviour OR used disorderly behaviour 

Towards another person 

With intent to cause harassment/alarm/distress 

And caused that/another person 

Harassment/alarm/distress 

S4A(1)(b)

Displayed threatening/abusive/insulting writing/sign/other visual representation 

With intent to cause a person harassment/alarm/distress 

And caused that/another person 

Harassment/alarm/distress 

Sentence:

Summary 

6 months


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## Blurr (4 October 2012)

kateo said:



			what I actually said was that it didn't amount to false imprisonment, slightly different
		
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sorry, I couldn't remember which page you'd said this on so couldn't directly quote.  Would it be false imprisonment if she got off the horse and then he held her and wouldn't let her go?

Don't think Jesstickle has actually give the other side of the story, a) because she's not him and b) because she wasn't actually there.  If he really is covered in whip marks I don't understand why the police aren't going to press charges for AOABH as from the this new report the incident falls well outside the scope for restorative justice.

In the meantime, a reportedly polite nice horsey grandfather thought that the solution to remove a horse riding tresspasser from his land was to grab hold of the reins and prevent them from leaving.


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2012)

Blurr said:



			sorry, I couldn't remember which page you'd said this on so couldn't directly quote.  Would it be false imprisonment if she got off the horse and then he held her and wouldn't let her go?

Don't think Jesstickle has actually give the other side of the story, a) because she's not him and b) because she wasn't actually there.  If he really is covered in whip marks I don't understand why the police aren't going to press charges for AOABH as from the this new report the incident falls well outside the scope for restorative justice.

In the meantime, a reportedly polite nice horsey grandfather thought that the solution to remove a horse riding tresspasser from his land was to grab hold of the reins and prevent them from leaving.
		
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Well, the story I got came straight from him via one other very, very reliable source. That's probably about as close to the other side of it as you're going to get. 

And I do know the opinion of the local villager's of the OPs habits of riding on the pavements and all over the nicely mown grass outside people's houses.

There was even a cartoon about the OP put up in the local pub to this effect


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## rockysmum (4 October 2012)

jesstickle said:



			And I do know the opinion of the local villager's of the OPs habits of riding on the pavements and all over the nicely mown grass outside people's houses.

:
		
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Would that be part of their gardens or the grass verges they have chosen to claim 




jesstickle said:



			There was even a cartoon about the OP put up in the local pub to this effect 

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What a lovely community, thats out and out bullying


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## Littlelegs (4 October 2012)

Even op stated he held the reins & asked for her details, it was only her refusal that prompted him to shout. And afaik, the injured party would have to agree to press charges, I'm sure in this type of situation it can't be done without him agreeing. 
  I'd still love to know what all those in support of ops actions would do if they found someone riding round their horses field. In all honesty, if I was churning up your horses winter grazing would you all just happily leave me to it? Or would you be pretty annoyed?
  Glad Jesstickle has got the otherside, maybe we can stop implying op was defending herself from a madman intent on assault or worse now.


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2012)

rockysmum said:



			What a lovely community, thats out and out bullying 

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No it isn't. The landlady's dad draws them of everyone. They're just little caricatures he does of people done in a perfectly good hearted way. Most people take them entirely in the nature they're intended. I'm sure most people who live there have had one done of them at some point.

ETS: and how do you excuse riding on the pavement seeing as you're hell bent on taking the OP's side?


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## rockysmum (4 October 2012)

jesstickle said:



			No it isn't. The landlady's dad draws them of everyone. They're just little caricatures he does of people done in a perfectly good hearted way. Most people take them entirely in the nature they're intended.
		
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Well if it was a good hearted joke which the OP shared, I fail to see why you mentioned it as part of your "evidence"

Most likely the OP was not happy about it.  School yard bully behaviour if he doesn't have their permission


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## JFTDWS (4 October 2012)

RM, just because it wasn't meant offensively doesn't mean it doesn't illustrate the OP's reputation for being inconsiderate in where she chooses to ride - which is highly relevant given that this thread is about her trespassing!


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## rhino (4 October 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Well if it was a good hearted joke which the OP shared, I fail to see why you mentioned it as part of your "evidence"

Most likely the OP was not happy about it.  School yard bully behaviour if he doesn't have their permission
		
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Do you write to every newspaper to complain about their satirical drawings too  Jeez, what's with the 'bully' card being drawn at every conceivable opportunity on here


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## Kallibear (4 October 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Would that be part of their gardens or the grass verges they have chosen to claim 

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Doesn't matter if they legally own it or not. It's extremely bad manners to make a mess of public ground that's been cared for, be that the local football patch, the sports field or the mowed grass outside poeple's houses. If you truely feel it's acceptable to make hoof marks all over publicly cared-for land, no wonder so many people don't like horse riders!

I walked the (barefoot) horse down a wide stretch of council mowned grass between streets this evening. Turns out there's a boggy patch in it and we made a couple of deep footprints. I felt awful!


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Well if it was a good hearted joke which the OP shared, I fail to see why you mentioned it as part of your "evidence"

Most likely the OP was not happy about it.  School yard bully behaviour if he doesn't have their permission
		
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well, I believe OP still uses the pub so can't be too offended eh? 

And he's an old guy with a gently mocking sense of humour. Bullying is repeated and target unpleasantness, not a one off joke. 

I take real umbrage with the way bully is bandied about on this forum!


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## rockysmum (4 October 2012)

jesstickle said:



			ETS: and how do you excuse riding on the pavement seeing as you're hell bent on taking the OP's side?
		
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Actually I'm not, I was trying to restore some balance to this thread.

Bottom line is they both appear to have behaved in a dreadful manner.

OP for trespassing.  Other guy for not identifying himself as the land owner, restraining the horse, shouting and threatening.  And then OP again for hitting out.

I wouldn't trespass, but some guy doing that would scare the hell out of me.  How many random assaults and murders do you have to see in the press before it would scare you lot  

I do blame the OP for trespass but not for being scared, it doesn't sound like she knew this man which in a smaller community is unusual.


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## rhino (4 October 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I take real umbrage with the way bully is bandied about on this forum!
		
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Snap!

Also a bit too much daily mail type reading I think; since when did every man become an axe murderer/rapist/barefooter/parellier... (I may have gone off on a slight tangent there, oh well  )


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## rockysmum (4 October 2012)

jesstickle said:



			Bullying is repeated and target unpleasantness, not a one off joke. 
!
		
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I actually prefer this definition of bullying, perhaps puts your earlier post in a different light 

Bullying can take many forms: from teasing and spreading rumours to pushing someone around and causing physical harm. It often happens in front of other people.

It includes name calling, mocking, kicking, taking belongings, writing or drawing offensive graffiti, messing around with peoples belongings, gossiping, excluding people from groups, and threatening others.


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2012)

Well to be fair rm, we do live by a prison so I guess he could have been a lunatic or an axe murderer  It wouldn't be the first thing I'd assume but hey. I was brought up to know that if you trespass you get chased by pissed off farmers


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## rockysmum (4 October 2012)

rhino said:



			Snap!

Also a bit too much daily mail type reading I think; since when did every man become an axe murderer/rapist/barefooter/parellier... (I may have gone off on a slight tangent there, oh well  )
		
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Actually I would think any man (or woman ) who tried to restrain my horse, likely to practice any of those abuses


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2012)

rockysmum said:



			I actually prefer this definition of bullying, perhaps puts your earlier post in a different light 

Bullying can take many forms: from teasing and spreading rumours to pushing someone around and causing physical harm. It often happens in front of other people.

It includes name calling, mocking, kicking, taking belongings, writing or drawing offensive graffiti, messing around with peoples belongings, gossiping, excluding people from groups, and threatening others.
		
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Are you some how implying I am a bully? I don't understand this post. 

If I am a bully the OP definitely is.


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## Cinnamontoast (4 October 2012)

rhino said:



			Do you write to every newspaper to complain about their satirical drawings too  Jeez, what's with the 'bully' card being drawn at every conceivable opportunity on here 

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Omg, they'll be burning effigies next!


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## rhino (4 October 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			Omg, they'll be burning effigies next! 

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More worried about JH coming after me for the cartoons I did of her last year


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## rockysmum (4 October 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			Omg, they'll be burning effigies next! 

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Now that I am a fan of


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## rockysmum (4 October 2012)

jesstickle said:



			Are you some how implying I am a bully? I don't understand this post. 

If I am a bully the OP definitely is. 

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No, I was saying that the village talking about her and putting up cartoons in the pub is


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## Jesstickle (4 October 2012)

rockysmum said:



			No, I was saying that the village talking about her and putting up cartoons in the pub is 

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They talk about everyone. It's a village. That's what happens. 

You should hear the rumours I've heard about myself over the years


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## rockysmum (4 October 2012)

jesstickle said:



			You should hear the rumours I've heard about myself over the years 

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Tell  

Be far more interesting than this load of rubbish.

Just no other interesting threads to argue about tonight


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## rhino (4 October 2012)

jesstickle said:



			They talk about everyone. It's a village. *In NORFOLK!!!!* That's what happens. 

You should hear the rumours I've heard about myself over the years 

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## Jesstickle (4 October 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Tell  

Be far more interesting than this load of rubbish.

Just no other interesting threads to argue about tonight 

Click to expand...

Well, I definitely remember hearing that I was involved with more than one boy for starters



rhino said:



  

Click to expand...


I'd be cross but it's quite true. Norfolk is a very special place. I love it anyway though


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## CAYLA (4 October 2012)

I to am shocked at some of the replies telling the OP she was wrong (so basically tuff), this man basically held her against her will "did he not"? is that not breaking the law? the only way to move forward was to dismount! of which he could then have assaulted her, she got in first and acted the only way she thought would get him off the horse!!

She apologised and was about to head back but he suddenly grabbed the horse by the rein (madness)
He needs help! im affraid, he should have accepted the apology and let her be on her way and waited till she was off the land.

Here is my guess, he relaised he was a pratt and panicked himself thinking "feck me, what the hell was I thinking doing that, she could have me for assault! or someone one with a few more brain cells than him advised him to go to the police when he explained what he had done"

OP I would be telling the police exactly the above, that you did not even believe he was the land owner and you believed he was trying to assault you! why? because that's what sprung to mind when I read it and what I would think if this happened to me. I think his reaction was irrational and ott and frankly weird!!

How in the hell do you know he was even the land owner "he could have intented to abduct her, rape her, whatever!!

And feck the horse hurting him! the horse could have thrown her off and killed her and come over and landed on her, is it worth killing her for crossing some land!!, maybe he has just watched mad max on dvd. Who knows? he was clearly off this planet!

I get it's his land but im sorry it was un called for to grab the horse.
I would also be surprised if someone came into my garden or walked through it, I have a 6ft fence all around it with no access to get in. People do walk u my path at the front, my gates are wide open, if I dont want them too, I shall shut them!

To be fair to the OP, she said "ok, im sorry I will bow my head in shame and suck it up" after a few replies but people kept replying and having a dig way beyond that.
Op, tell the police you to where on the verge of making a complaint yourself fearing for other womans/people safety re this random loon bag and you where just trying to find out who he was as you where in such shock you did not take his reg number!
I would also deny the lash marks where all yours and that he could easily have inflicted some for "shock factor" as someone suggested, he probably denies holding the rein, so you should have denied striking him, if that's how he wants to play it.


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## martlin (4 October 2012)

Have you read all the posts on this thread, Cayla? Just asking...


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## CAYLA (4 October 2012)

Did I heck, its 41 pages, i tried my best, im lying with a slipped disc
I read a fair bit and skimmed and got to the parts where she has been accused of riding over lawns or something, still Im going of the OP (true) only one side! but I find it alarming to grab someones horse and not expect them to panick.

Did I miss something apologies if I did
Bring on the onslaught *hides* well actually im stuck as can't really move, so just bring it on


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## martlin (4 October 2012)

nah, nothing special  just the OP got totally busted  lol


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## CAYLA (4 October 2012)

martlin said:



			nah, nothing special  just the OP got totally busted  lol
		
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LMFAO you should be ashamed, you made me *hurt* Im in agony here and you made it worse
What happened, please cut me some slack for my slipped disc and *tell me *


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## Bikerchickone (5 October 2012)

Cayla if you're stuck home injured surely you should want to read all of the posts to stave off boredom whilst on box rest?  

I'd recommend reading it all, there are some very enlightening posts on here! Don't think the OP is coming back for more words of wisdom from the fora though! 

Joking aside I still think she should just apologise and get the whole thing over and done with. Had it been my grandfather she belted with her crop I would be insisting he pressed charges for assault, so she's lucky to have the option to eat humble pie and save herself more trouble. 

Anyway hope you're feeling better soon, most of the answers to your question are on the last few pages of the thread.


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## CAYLA (5 October 2012)

bikerchickone said:



			Cayla if you're stuck home injured surely you should want to read all of the posts to stave off boredom whilst on box rest?  

I'd recommend reading it all, there are some very enlightening posts on here! Don't think the OP is coming back for more words of wisdom from the fora though! 

Joking aside I still think she should just apologise and get the whole thing over and done with. Had it been my grandfather she belted with her crop I would be insisting he pressed charges for assault, so she's lucky to have the option to eat humble pie and save herself more trouble. 

Anyway hope you're feeling better soon, most of the answers to your question are on the last few pages of the thread. 

Click to expand...

Ok will do, you can tell im *frozen* I dont usually come in here, I found another interesting post in here and its pages long, but as you say, I have nowt to do, so im going to read on, this one and that one

I might move in


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## Bikerchickone (5 October 2012)

Lol, it seems a good time to do it, lots going on today!


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## CAYLA (5 October 2012)

bikerchickone said:



			Lol, it seems a good time to do it, lots going on today! 

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 hey link me if you feel I should see more/have missed something it's your duty to see I am entertain...thats how I see it anyways

Right...my verdict for this one, I read and I sticking with my original post


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## Shadow the Reindeer (5 October 2012)

If the gate had been locked or shut even, then OP probably not have entered the field.. perhaps if all farmers who don't want trespassers should take heed, and secure their fields properly then incidents like described would not happen..


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## JennBags (5 October 2012)

I am absolutely astounded by the amount of people on this thread who've been sticking up for the OP 

My initial thoughts on the first post was that it sounded very much like the OP was being very arrogant & the land owner was bring reasonable. Why would you not give out your details? 

She wasn't being restrained by him holding onto her horses rein - note, one rein, not both; could any rider really say that was restraining their horse? Mine would easily be able to shake a man off their rein  That's not restraint 

And then to beat the LO so he has weals - through his clothes? Utterly shocking behaviour 

Anyway, I wasn't at all surprised when JT clarified the situation with regards to the OP having a reputation for this behaviour. 

JT I think if it were me, I would be printing off the first page of this thread & giving it to the LO & encouraging him to press charges against this woman, instead if being reasonable and accepting her apology, which sounds like it wouldn't be meant anyway, so totally pointless


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## Miss L Toe (5 October 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Would that be part of their gardens or the grass verges they have chosen to claim 




What a lovely community, thats out and out bullying 

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Mown grass verges should not be ridden on imho, they may actually be owned by the houseowner or under mowing management by the council. Either way they are part of keeping a village neat an tidy.


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## RunToEarth (5 October 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Intentional Harassment, Alarm or Distress
Public Order Act 1986, s4A(1)

A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, OR displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.

Points to prove:

S4A(1)(a)

Used threatening/abusive/insulting words/behaviour OR used disorderly behaviour 

Towards another person 

With intent to cause harassment/alarm/distress 

And caused that/another person 

Harassment/alarm/distress 

S4A(1)(b)

Displayed threatening/abusive/insulting writing/sign/other visual representation 

With intent to cause a person harassment/alarm/distress 

And caused that/another person 

Harassment/alarm/distress 

Sentence:

Summary 

6 months
		
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good job most judges apply common sense to the equation. 

This post has made entertaining reading insofar as everyone who thinks op is correct seem to condone hitting old men with whips. 

I've always understood that some people are slightly unhinged, proof is in the reading I guess. If anything this is a reminder for land owners to be more vigilant about closing and securing gates to keep people out.


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## rockysmum (5 October 2012)

RunToEarth said:



			good job most judges apply common sense to the equation. 

This post has made entertaining reading insofar as everyone who thinks op is correct seem to condone hitting old men with whips. 

I've always understood that some people are slightly unhinged, proof is in the reading I guess. If anything this is a reminder for land owners to be more vigilant about closing and securing gates to keep people out.
		
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If you mean me, of course I dont condone it.

Was just suggesting there are two sides to everything and this had got very one sided.

IMHO both were at fault.  Police seem to agree if they are sitting them down to work things out, rather than charging anyone.


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## RunToEarth (5 October 2012)

Shadeyoak said:



			If the gate had been locked or shut even, then OP probably not have entered the field.. perhaps if all farmers who don't want trespassers should take heed, and secure their fields properly then incidents like described would not happen..
		
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we do, but why the hell should we "take heed" and special care to prevent people being where they have absolutely no right to be? If the OH had any common sense, manners or knowledge of the countryside she would have stuck to where she legally is allowed. Want to ride somewhere not on a public right of way? Ask permission or buy it, and then spend the rest of your life preventing other people trespassing on it.


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## mon (5 October 2012)

Well said run to earth.


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## Waltzing Matilda (5 October 2012)

Trespass is a civil offence and nothing to do with the police. So regardless of if op was right or wrong to ride there there only offences the police can get involved with r the intimidation and threatening behaviour towards op and their responses/self defense.

 Not saying it's right but I'd have probably reacted in same.way in that position. Where i used to keep my horse my yo said I could ride on fields as she owned them. But then I always heard people say to b carefully to not get caught by farmer as u were supposed time buy a permit. Very confusing so could have easily ended upain similar situation!! Think I would have been terrified and done what I could at the time too!!


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## Pedantic (5 October 2012)

NOA


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## jeeve (5 October 2012)

My understanding of trespass is that if you are asked to leave and you do not, that will be trespass, and if you leave immediately you are asked, there will not be a case against you.

I may be wrong.

Further, that you do not have the right to detain someone on your land.

I think both parties were at fault.

Given that the OP had no way of knowing if the man was a landowner or someone about to assault her, she was only defending herself and her horse. She may have panicked a little, and used more force than necessary. 

Of course she should not have been on the land , but it was a mistake.


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## Shadow the Reindeer (5 October 2012)

An open gate is an open invitation, I know of a few people who'd be happy to gallop across an empty field. Personally, I don't. I stick to the roads, and bridlepaths.


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## Irishdan (5 October 2012)

RunToEarth said:



			we do, but why the hell should we "take heed" and special care to prevent people being where they have absolutely no right to be? If the OH had any common sense, manners or knowledge of the countryside she would have stuck to where she legally is allowed. Want to ride somewhere not on a public right of way? Ask permission or buy it, and then spend the rest of your life preventing other people trespassing on it.
		
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RunToEarth, can I just ask you what you would do if a total stranger approached you and grabbed your horses reins, when you were on your own and in the middle of nowhere??  Im guessing from your name that you hunt??  So a saboteur grabs your horses reins on a hunt??  Would you just sit there or dismount??  Is it really so hard to put yourself in the OPs position regardless of whether she should have been there or not??  Just interested!


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## Kallibear (5 October 2012)

jeeve said:



			Of course she should not have been on the land , but it was a mistake.
		
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By the sound sound of it, it was no 'mistake' and something done knowingly and repetatively. It's just she got caught this time. I know people (often teenage riders) who will ride just about anywhere as long as it's fun, regardless of bad manners or permission. They give everyone else a bad name.


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## *hic* (5 October 2012)

It might be well noted that the LO is a horsey person and as such may well have held the rein in attempt to calm down a horse getting increasingly agitated by its rider's behaviour.


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## wench (5 October 2012)

If anyone did that to my grandad they would be sorry...


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## Clava (5 October 2012)

I cannot understand why the OP would not give name and details?? Only someone hiding something wouldn't or someone not willing to take the consequences of being in the wrong.


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## MurphysMinder (5 October 2012)

Shadeyoak said:



			If the gate had been locked or shut even, then OP probably not have entered the field.. perhaps if all farmers who don't want trespassers should take heed, and secure their fields properly then incidents like described would not happen..
		
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Are you seriously suggesting farmers should lock all their gates to stop people trespassing - why on earth should they have to!  The farmers round here are quite happy for dog walkers to go in some of their fields, but horses are a different matter, particularly after all this wet weather.  I have just been looking at the mess our unshod pony has made in the field just having a little play, I hate to think what a larger shod horse would have done.
Just one other thought, if the LO was horsey and fairly well known locally I would have thought the OP would have known him too so perhaps was aware he wasn't a random stranger/axe murderer!


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## ester (5 October 2012)

I wouldn't want to give my correct details to someone I didn't know.... 

I would have given fakes though.

ditto that an open gate is NOT an open invitation


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## MagicMelon (5 October 2012)

CBFan said:



			Why do there have to be signs saying it is private land???! Just because it is a field, doesn't mean it doesn't belong to anybody. 

I'm afraid I agree with the above. you were caught trespassing fair and square and while I don't condone this man's behaviour, you were in the wrong.

I would go to the meeting and apologise and in future stick to designated bridleways and land that you have the land owner's permission to be on.
		
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Erm, depends where you are in the UK actually. Up here in Scotland we are allowed to go anywhere. Im allowed to ride round any farmers fields I like by law (although I have asked for permission out of courtesy and dont tend to ride round them very often as I dont want to mess them up at all). 

Laws down in England are obviously different, but this girl did NOT need this threatening man to grab hold of her horses rein which could have caused a serious accident. He acted very dangerously and OP was clearly scared. I probably would have done exactly the same in her situation! No, I would not apologise to the man - I would explain how badly your horse could have reacted and that he was unecessarily threatening, as a result you were terrified and hit him in self defence.

Someone has said that the man didnt mind riders on his land and had the girl got permission then he would have allowed her to.  So he obviously wasnt concerned about any damage to his land, so he was simply irritated that she hadn't asked first?  Right...


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## RunToEarth (5 October 2012)

Irishdan said:



			RunToEarth, can I just ask you what you would do if a total stranger approached you and grabbed your horses reins, when you were on your own and in the middle of nowhere??  Im guessing from your name that you hunt??  So a saboteur grabs your horses reins on a hunt??  Would you just sit there or dismount??  Is it really so hard to put yourself in the OPs position regardless of whether she should have been there or not??  Just interested! 

Click to expand...

if you read my earlier post I did a couple of seasons ago, I was frightened, but continued to walk forwards and after a while he let go. It never entered my mind to get off or batter him with my hunting whip.


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## Jesstickle (5 October 2012)

MurphysMinder said:



			Just one other thought, if the LO was horsey and fairly well known locally I would have thought the OP would have known him too so perhaps was aware he wasn't a random stranger/axe murderer!
		
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In fairness probably not. I grew up there and never met him until I was an adult despite knowing all the other local farmers. 

I wouldn't give my details either. But then I wouldn't get myself in to the situation someone asked for them.


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## Patterdale (5 October 2012)

So glad OP has been outed. Readingbetween the lines of the op it was obvious she was possibly being economical with the truth. 

I will echo what others have said - if she had done that to my grandad, I wouldn't be settling for a mediation meeting and an apology. 

I'd be printing off the OP for the police, and pressing charges against her for assault.


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## joeanne (5 October 2012)

I've read all 15 chuffing pages.
Its no blooming wonder we as riders are prevented from riding over farmland etc......it seems many of us would lack the manners to ask first!
We moan non stop about drivers who are rude and dangerous.....land owners who are rude and threatening, yet all I seem to hear these days is rude RIDERS!!!
MM given the incident happened in Norfolk, I would say it falls under English Law, which is if it ain't yours, you don't ride over it without prior permission.
And if OP managed to leave welts she MUST have hit him repeatedly and hard. Whether he was right or wrong to hold the OP's rein, to repeatedly hit an old man is not on.
Jess pass my best wishes on to the gentleman in question. I hope he recovers quickly from his injuries and is feeling better soon.


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## MagicMelon (5 October 2012)

patterdale said:



			So glad OP has been outed. Readingbetween the lines of the op it was obvious she was possibly being economical with the truth. 

I will echo what others have said - if she had done that to my grandad, I wouldn't be settling for a mediation meeting and an apology. 

I'd be printing off the OP for the police, and pressing charges against her for assault.
		
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Why assume the other person is telling the truth?  You have no idea, OP could be the one to be believed here. At the end of the day, Im sure OP doesnt make a habit of just wacking random people when out on a hack - it doesnt matter if he's a grandad or not, he clearly scared OP enough that she felt she had to react.


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## 1987 (5 October 2012)

I'm sorry but you were trespassing, if landowners have to put 'private' signs up at every gateway they would be bankrupt.

Say if next doors rabbit was happily munching your grass and flowers in your garden you would instintively pick it up and march around to next door to give them their rabbit back. You wouldn't be very happy and they may have thought you have been rude and aggresive with their rabbit and them. It is a similar situation but in different circumstances. 

I don't condone the landowner's reaction at all as it seems a little heavy handed and unnecessary.


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## Jesstickle (5 October 2012)

Well, as I haven't told an alternative story of events, just given back ground, it would seem unlikely I'm lying surely?

He probably did grab hold of her, he probably did scare her. She still shouldn't have been there and further compounded the situation by being down right rude and she certainly shouldn't have set about beating someone with a riding crop.

If this had been the other way round, female landowner, male rider would you all think it was ok that he'd beaten her with a crop?


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Jess, show him this thread - and ask him if he'd like to comment (although assuming legal proceedings may prevent this).


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## JennBags (5 October 2012)

Yep. Still astounded! 

Rockysmum, the police need the victim to press charges, he seems like a reasonable man who has agreed to try to rescue this amicably. The police can't just press charges on their own without some sort of backup.

Jeeve, the LO was known to the OP, and it didn't sound like he was going to assault her, in fact I found this part of the story the most unbelievable & actually it seemed hysterical to me. 

Shadeyoak, an open gate most certainly should not be an open invitation  Absolutely disgusted that anyone can have this view.

Irishdan, and Magic Melon, this was not a total stranger approaching her & grabbing her reins for no reason. It was the LO (who was known to the OP) who reasonably asked her what she was doing on his land, and then asked for her details which she refused to give. Maybe her horse was jumping around a bit, she was probably upset from being caught out where she shouldn't be & transmitted this to the horse. The LO then may have held a rein to try to keep the horse calm, which the by now hysterical OP, feeling cross at being caught out, misinterpreted & started beating him. Just wrong. No one should behave like that.


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## JennBags (5 October 2012)

Oops just read jt's update that the op didn't necessarily know the LO by sight.

Agree if it were the other way round, everyone would be up in arms against the rider, because how could a woman ever be threatening to a man


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## Jesstickle (5 October 2012)

JB- I don't think the OP probably does know him. Other people do but OP may well not have done.

I don't ever see him anymore (don't live anywhere near now) the only way I can pass this back is through a chain of people and frankly I don't really want to get involved. Both parties are adults and I'm sure will resolve this between them. I only wanted to point out the missing facts from the OP as they were relevant to the (huge) debate going on. No point having an argument if you don't know everything is there?


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

jesstickle said:



			No point having an argument if you don't know everything is there? 

Click to expand...

Are you joking???  It's a basic principle of HHO.


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## NeverSayNever (5 October 2012)

there are not automatic rights that come with being a landowner that allow you to take the law into to your own hands and scare young girls. His age means nothing, he may have grown up Granddaughters but that doesn&#8217;t mean he couldn&#8217;t have been or wasn&#8217;t a threat to her with sinister intentions!

I still say that he was ultimately in the wrong! Yes, she was in the wrong to a lesser extent by being where she shouldn&#8217;t have been going by the ass that is English law, however he CROSSED A LINE and if he&#8217;d let go sooner he wouldn&#8217;t have welts at all!


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

NeverSayNever said:



			however he CROSSED A LINE and if hes let go sooner he wouldnt have welts at all!
		
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Which line did he cross?


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## NeverSayNever (5 October 2012)

amymay said:



			Which line did he cross?
		
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the one where he grabbed her rein and would not let go. Interpret it how you like but in my book, THAT is behaving in a threatening manner and no matter what she had done to his land he had no right to make her feel threatened.


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## *hic* (5 October 2012)

NSN - OP is married so is probably not a young girl!


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## martlin (5 October 2012)

Shadeyoak said:



			If the gate had been locked or shut even, then OP probably not have entered the field.. perhaps if all farmers who don't want trespassers should take heed, and secure their fields properly then incidents like described would not happen..
		
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So, let me get it straight, ok?
Lets assume that I have 30 acres of winter wheat - the wheat rarely has tendency to leg it on the road... You are suggesting I should fence it, thus spend, what, £7K to just make sure you don't trample it on your horse? 
You must be kidding me


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## Clava (5 October 2012)

NeverSayNever said:



			I still say that he was ultimately in the wrong! Yes, she was in the wrong to a lesser extent by being where she shouldnt have been going by the ass that is English law, however he CROSSED A LINE and if hed let go sooner he wouldnt have welts at all!
		
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Outrageous, it is OK to beat a man for holding onto a bridle? What if he was attempting to lead the horse off the property to prevent the animal from further damage to land and trespass? and why not give details as most people can be tracked down anyway as was the case in this example - just ask a few questions locally and most people can locate a horse rider's home.


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## Capriole (5 October 2012)

Clava said:



			I cannot understand why the OP would not give name and details?? Only someone hiding something wouldn't or someone not willing to take the consequences of being in the wrong.
		
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Now, I dont trespass on other peoples land, but regardless, I wouldn;t be giving out my details to an angry man I dont know (anyone can say they're a landowner, doesnt mean they are) and who was shouting at me and holding on to my horse. 
Whether or not I felt threatened, which I would have, Ive had my very own stalker in the past and giving out my personal details wouldn't be happening.

As to the rest of it, meh, my advice to the OP is still to take proper legal advice.


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## Littlelegs (5 October 2012)

Lots of people seem keen to defend her actions on the ground that she didn't know his intent. Perhaps same could be said of the Lo. Maybe he got hold of the rein to prevent her using the horse to mow him down, or to prevent her galloping off & damaging his land. The self defence argument works both ways.


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## NeverSayNever (5 October 2012)

Clava said:



			Outrageous, it is OK to beat a man for holding onto a bridle? What if he was attempting to lead the horse off the property to prevent the animal from further damage to land and trespass? and why not give details as most people can be tracked down anyway as was the case in this example - just ask a few questions locally and most people can locate a horse rider's home.
		
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he could have let go as she asked - the fact she had to use force to get away from him would make me question his motives  - what was his next move? Assault, rape, murder???  THAT is outrageous, in this day and you cant be too careful! As you rightly point out, he could have tracked her down easily so why try to detain her?


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## Lady La La (5 October 2012)

martlin said:



			the wheat rarely has tendency to leg it on the road...
		
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## *hic* (5 October 2012)

+ 1


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Dee O'Dorant said:



			+ 1


Click to expand...

+2


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## jrp204 (5 October 2012)

JT, thanks for filling us in. There are always 2 sides to a story.
Hope he is ok, it sounds like he is being very reasonable excepting an apology, but as we all well know villages are small places and being the bigger person is the right thing to do. Hope he is ok.
OP, no doubt you a still reading, apologise, put it behind you and ride responsibly.


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## jrp204 (5 October 2012)

NeverSayNever said:



			he could have let go as she asked - the fact she had to use force to get away from him would make me question his motives  - what was his next move? Assault, rape, murder???  THAT is outrageous, in this day and you cant be too careful! As you rightly point out, he could have tracked her down easily so why try to detain her? 

Click to expand...

And she could have given him her details, fake or not, or she could have got her phone out and dialled 999. The truck did not materialise out of thin air, she would have heard it coming or seen it. If he had an alterior motive he would be sitting in a ditch on a bridle way. As I also said before, is it not possible OP has been in the field previously? Maybe he has seen her but as been unable to catch up with her but this time he did, maybe she has damaged something? Why should he have to chase around finding where she lives, go to her house and then probably be confronted by her and her OH? OP says LO she galloped off with LO 'hot on her heels', well, unless he is Ussein Bolti don't see how that was a problem, why wouldn't he be angry, he had just been walloped, several times, for what, asking a ? And holding 1 rein.
She shouldn't have been there and she knows it,


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## Penny Less (5 October 2012)

You lot are going round in circles with your arguements. Bottom line is you have only the OPs side of the story (who might be a troll) OP was in the wrong in the first instance and hopefully will go to this meeting and things will calm down.  I suspect OP wont come back on here to update the situation !


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## wench (5 October 2012)

Maybe she's in custody so she can't


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## Caol Ila (5 October 2012)

Some of these scenarios you guys are making up to justify the landowner's decision to grab the horse are truly hilarious, guys.

Imagine, you're on a ride, your horse gets nervous and starts bouncing around, and some random stranger on foot decides he's going to calm your horse down by grabbing its bridle and hang on for dear life, even when you tell him to let go.  I bet you'd appreciate that.


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## Shadow the Reindeer (5 October 2012)

martlin said:



			So, let me get it straight, ok?
Lets assume that I have 30 acres of winter wheat - the wheat rarely has tendency to leg it on the road... You are suggesting I should fence it, thus spend, what, £7K to just make sure you don't trample it on your horse? 
You must be kidding me 

Click to expand...

How else are you going to prevent horse riders or kids messing on motor bikes from tearing up the land? An open field with no fencing? Now how's that going to stop people trespassing?


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## Bikerchickone (5 October 2012)

Sorry shadeyoak, the fact is most of us know we shouldn't be on a field like that and so wouldn't be there in the first place! Anyone deliberately setting out to cause damage is going to do so regardless of a fence in the way, so why should a farmer waste money fencing his land to prevent ignorant riders trashing his crops? 

No wonder most of the public are of the opinion that horsey people are a law unto themselves if this is the way some of us behave!  

We all need to show some respect for the property of others.


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

wench said:



			Maybe she's in custody so she can't 

Click to expand...

Well she wasn't last night - as she was on here reading this thread.........


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## Shadow the Reindeer (5 October 2012)

http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_6386260_keep-people-trespassing-property-fence.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2007/jun/08/yourrights.legal


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Shadeyoak said:



			How else are you going to prevent horse riders or kids messing on motor bikes from tearing up the land? An open field with no fencing? Now how's that going to stop people trespassing?
		
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Where has anyone mentioned no fencing?


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## Shadow the Reindeer (5 October 2012)

martlin said:



			Lets assume that I have 30 acres of winter wheat - the wheat rarely has tendency to leg it on the road... You are suggesting I should fence it, thus spend, what, £7K to just make sure you don't trample it on your horse?
		
Click to expand...

There ^^


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## martlin (5 October 2012)

Shadeyoak said:



			How else are you going to prevent horse riders or kids messing on motor bikes from tearing up the land? An open field with no fencing? Now how's that going to stop people trespassing?
		
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Actually, I would expect that kids are taught by their parents to respect other's property, and as to people on motorbikes - I would take number plates and bring charges for trespass and criminal damage.
It's not my job to prevent them from trespassing, fencing arable crops is neither financially viable nor practical.


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## *hic* (5 October 2012)

So Shadey, you'd like to see farmers, producing your food, spend millions of pounds fencing in crops that are highly unlikely to leg it so that riders don't ride on them. I assume you've not thought what this would do to their bottom line and the effect this would have on the price of the food you and your horse both eat

Are you a fencing contractor by any chance?

Most people know and understand that if it's not yours and you do not have express permission you don't use it, whether it's other people's land, other people's gardens or other people's cars.


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## martlin (5 October 2012)

Shadeyoak said:



http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_6386260_keep-people-trespassing-property-fence.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2007/jun/08/yourrights.legal

Click to expand...

And your point is?


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## Maesfen (5 October 2012)

Shadeyoak said:



			How else are you going to prevent horse riders or kids messing on motor bikes from tearing up the land? An open field with no fencing? Now how's that going to stop people trespassing?
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry.  Weren't you taught that you shouldn't touch anything that doesn't belong to you; is it that hard to comprehend that it applies to property as well and you should respect other's property?  Why is a field any different to your garden?  Oh hang on, it's highly unlikely that your garden will be productive in the monetary scheme but a field is whether that's growing crops of the cereal kind or grazing; it's still a crop and it's not anyone else's right to play around in it other than the owner at all.


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## flyingfeet (5 October 2012)

*Moral of the thread: Its ok to be a complete arrogant obnoxious person and ride where you like *

Most landowners will be male and you can *bitchslap* them if they try and stop you indulging in this hobby 

Anyone who says you are arrogant or obnoxious is a *bully*

Any person trying to stop you being arrogant or obnoxious wants clearly wants to *rape* you on the spot, so therefore *self defense is quite clearly justifi*ed

You know hunting folk went to court when they whipped antis holding on to their horses, ahhh but that's ok as the antis probably didn't want to rape them....


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## alidegg (5 October 2012)

FWIW, she can't have been that concerned about the horse's mouth as per the original post as she regularly rides in a pelham with just the curb rein (no roundings). I have encountered her out hunting (same pack) and can verify the local opinion Jess gave of her...


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## *hic* (5 October 2012)

I'm just realising that should I meet someone riding across my land the trick is to accept their assurance that they will be leaving, grab their whip in case they hit me with it and use it to whack the horse across the backside to ensure that they leave at speed.


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## Serephin (5 October 2012)

Good Lord - this thread is beyond the ridiculous now.


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## martlin (5 October 2012)

Dee O'Dorant said:



			I'm just realising that should I meet someone riding across my land the trick is to accept their assurance that they will be leaving, grab their whip in case they hit me with it and use it to whack the horse across the backside to ensure that they leave at speed.

Click to expand...

Good plan, Batman


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## Shadow the Reindeer (5 October 2012)

Serephin said:



			Good Lord - this thread is beyond the ridiculous now.
		
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You're not kidding..


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## Shadow the Reindeer (5 October 2012)

martlin said:



			And your point is?

Click to expand...

Try reading them..


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## Shadow the Reindeer (5 October 2012)

Dee O'Dorant said:



			So Shadey, you'd like to see farmers, producing your food, spend millions of pounds fencing in crops that are highly unlikely to leg it so that riders don't ride on them. I assume you've not thought what this would do to their bottom line and the effect this would have on the price of the food you and your horse both eat

Are you a fencing contractor by any chance?

Most people know and understand that if it's not yours and you do not have express permission you don't use it, whether it's other people's land, other people's gardens or other people's cars.
		
Click to expand...

You don't know me from adam , so don't make assumptions about me. 
As food becomes more expensive especially through shortages of grain etc, it is going to become ever so more important to protect your land, so at some point securing the field is going to be the only way, you can bang your head against the wall as much as you like, there are always going to be people who will not listen.
 It's the few that spoil it for the many, instead of taking it out on me, some one who DOES respect other people's property, try taking it out on those who DO trespass onto farmers land intentionally.


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## joeanne (5 October 2012)

So I should fence my front garden to keep people out? Don't think so!
I know, when I ride past 30 acres of expensive wheat, that its not mine to ride across.
It really is as SIMPLE as that!


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Shadeyoak said:



			You don't know me from adam , so don't make assumptions about me.
		
Click to expand...

Another not quite grasping the idea of debate


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## JennBags (5 October 2012)

Jen_Cots said:



*Moral of the thread: Its ok to be a complete arrogant obnoxious person and ride where you like *

Most landowners will be male and you can *bitchslap* them if they try and stop you indulging in this hobby 

Anyone who says you are arrogant or obnoxious is a *bully*

Any person trying to stop you being arrogant or obnoxious wants clearly wants to *rape* you on the spot, so therefore *self defense is quite clearly justifi*ed

You know hunting folk went to court when they whipped antis holding on to their horses, ahhh but that's ok as the antis probably didn't want to rape them....
		
Click to expand...

    

I cannot believe how many people have moved from the LO wanting to know the trespasser's details to wanting to rape & murder said trespasser


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## Littlelegs (5 October 2012)

My local bowling greens & cricket club have open access, doesn't mean I'd ride on them because they aren't locked up, anymore than I'd ride across random farmland. My front garden & most of those we hack past aren't fenced either, does that mean its ok for people to use them? Ridiculous argument.


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## NeverSayNever (5 October 2012)

jrp204 said:



			And she could have given him her details, fake or not, or she could have got her phone out and dialled 999. The truck did not materialise out of thin air, she would have heard it coming or seen it. If he had an alterior motive he would be sitting in a ditch on a bridle way. As I also said before, is it not possible OP has been in the field previously? Maybe he has seen her but as been unable to catch up with her but this time he did, maybe she has damaged something? Why should he have to chase around finding where she lives, go to her house and then probably be confronted by her and her OH? OP says LO she galloped off with LO 'hot on her heels', well, unless he is Ussein Bolti don't see how that was a problem, why wouldn't he be angry, he had just been walloped, several times, for what, asking a ? And holding 1 rein.
She shouldn't have been there and she knows it,
		
Click to expand...


i DO agree with you that she should have phoned the police straight away if she felt threatened. and I DO agree she was probably somewhere she shouldnt have been..  but I also still maintain that he in turn crossed a line and opened himself up to all sorts by trying to detain her.


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## martlin (5 October 2012)

NeverSayNever said:



			I also still maintain that he in turn crossed a line and opened himself up to all sorts by trying to detain her.
		
Click to expand...

Like a physical assault with a whip, you mean?


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## NeverSayNever (5 October 2012)

martlin said:



			Like a physical assault with a whip, you mean?
		
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yes, if it was in self defence and trying to get away, he was warned to let go. annnnnyway, round in circles. Thats my take on it, am off to burn round some stubble


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## Amaranta (5 October 2012)

Shadeyoak said:



			An open gate is an open invitation, I know of a few people who'd be happy to gallop across an empty field. Personally, I don't. I stick to the roads, and bridlepaths.
		
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These sort of people do nothing at all for the image of equestrians, I am with Runtoearth, why on earth should farmers have to spend their lives preventing arrogant idiots like the OP running amok over their land????

As for beating an old man with her crop............................words fail me and I hope he does press charges.


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## joeanne (5 October 2012)

doesn't really sound to me like it was self defense.
Holding on to a rein does not amount to assault and needing to defend yourself IMO.
As pointed out before....keep the horse walking, he would have had to let go. 
No need at all to lay into him with a whip...THATS assault!


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## Amaranta (5 October 2012)

Shadeyoak said:



			You don't know me from adam , so don't make assumptions about me. 
As food becomes more expensive especially through shortages of grain etc, it is going to become ever so more important to protect your land, so at some point securing the field is going to be the only way, you can bang your head against the wall as much as you like, there are always going to be people who will not listen.
 It's the few that spoil it for the many, instead of taking it out on me, some one who DOES respect other people's property, try taking it out on those who DO trespass onto farmers land intentionally.
		
Click to expand...

People like the OP you mean?


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## Patterdale (5 October 2012)

Shadeyoak I can't quote but your point about food becoming ever expensive and therefore will all have to be fenced for protection one day soon (or words to that effect) had me in stitches. 

How on EARTH would someone steal a wheat crop?? Go combining in the dead of night!?

Thanks for those hilarious images!!


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## CAYLA (5 October 2012)

patterdale said:



			Shadeyoak I can't quote but your point about food becoming ever expensive and therefore will all have to be fenced for protection one day soon (or words to that effect) had me in stitches. 

How on EARTH would someone steal a wheat crop?? Go combining in the dead of night!?

Thanks for those hilarious images!! 

Click to expand...

I think she meant more for "protection" from damage (horses trodding over it, as in the argument here!) even though I dont ride I would think it mad of someone crossing a deep corn/wheat field on a horse through fear of injury (holes) en even ground etc, I would think they would be more likely to ride around the outside (I would assume the OP was doing this too). Where I live (the farmer keeps the edges of the field short for horse riders and dog walkers to walk around them). We walk our dogs round 3 lots of crop fields, we frequently see the farmers working in the fields (they never say a word) 
I never thought she meant people stealing it (I could be wrong) mind you!


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## Clava (5 October 2012)

CAYLA said:



			Where I live (the farmer keeps the edges of the field short for horse riders and dog walkers to walk around them). We walk our dogs round 3 lots of crop fields, we frequently see the farmers working in the fields (they never say a word) 
!
		
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Those headlands are not always left for walkers and riders but often for the farmer's benefit (acces, game birds etc) and you should not walk on them without either asking permission or checking you have the right to be there (which as you say they never "say a word" implies that you actually have never directly asked).


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## fburton (5 October 2012)

Blimey, thread still going strong then... 



jesstickle said:



			And I do know the opinion of the local villager's of the OPs habits of riding on the pavements and all over the nicely mown grass outside people's houses.

There was even a cartoon about the OP put up in the local pub to this effect 

Click to expand...

So LO didn't know of OP's reputation and habits, despite it being common knowledge amongst the local villagers? If he _did_, why did he feel the need to ask for her details?

However, it does sound like OP was in the habit of riding roughshod over other people's land. Even if no damage was done and no one was inconvenienced, it shows a lack of common courtesy. I think the law in Scotland is more reasonable in emphasizing actual harm over theoretical principle, but I would _still_ seek permission before entering private land on horseback here in Scotland.


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## fburton (5 October 2012)

patterdale said:



			How on EARTH would someone steal a wheat crop?? Go combining in the dead of night!?
		
Click to expand...

Oh, the wanton selfishness of crop circlers!


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## martlin (5 October 2012)

CAYLA said:



			even though I dont ride I would think it mad of someone crossing a deep corn/wheat field on a horse
		
Click to expand...

No, you wouldn't but what if it ''looks'' like a stubble field, but is in fact a directly drilled or undersown crop, just sprouting up and very vunerable?


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## CAYLA (5 October 2012)

Clava said:



			Those headlands are not always left for walkers and riders but often for the farmer's benefit (acces, game birds etc) and you should not walk on them without either asking permission or checking you have the right to be there (which as you say they never "say a word" implies that you actually have never directly asked).
		
Click to expand...


Nope, I have never directly asked, mind you one farmer I used to buy my hay from and knows me well so Im sure he was not happy he would have told me so, when he delivered my hay, I have walked the same field since I was about 10 (played in them as a kid), there are no game birds, just hay/straw and crop. Lots of dogs walkers and horse riders walk round them.
The other 2 have public footpath, but it literally takes you right past the crop fields and the farmer often pulls in to let us past and he smiles and aknowledges us (im sure he could asks us to leave) which I would happily (aslong as they never grabbed my dogs lead and tried to tussle with me). Lots of dogs walkers walk this these routes.


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## fburton (5 October 2012)

martlin said:



			Like a physical assault with a whip, you mean?
		
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She should have used a racing whip, which only makes a sound.


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## Clava (5 October 2012)

CAYLA said:



			Nope, I have never directly asked, mind you one farmer I used to buy my hay from and knows me well so Im sure he was not happy he would have told me so, when he delivered my hay, I have walked the same field since I was about 10 (played in them as a kid), there are no game birds, just hay/straw and crop. Lots of dogs walkers and horse riders walk round them.
The other 2 have public footpath, but it literally takes you right past the crop fields and the farmer often pulls in to let us past and he smiles and aknowledges us (im sure he could asks us to leave) which I would happily (aslong as they never grabbed my dogs lead and tried to tussle with me). Lots of dogs walkers walk this these routes.
		
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It sounds like a common understanding then  I just worry about riders who don't really check or know the land owner but just assume that access is ok as headlands look like perfect gallops.


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## MadisonBelle (5 October 2012)

Amaranta said:



			These sort of people do nothing at all for the image of equestrians, I am with Runtoearth, why on earth should farmers have to spend their lives preventing arrogant idiots like the OP running amok over their land????

As for beating an old man with her crop............................words fail me and I hope he does press charges.
		
Click to expand...

But how do you know she is ARROGANT? We don't know her.....many people have said they too have ACCIDENTLY missed a sign/whatever and gone from a bridle path to a farmers land........

I have no idea what I would have done but I do know that I would have been mortified to be on private land and would then have been horrified to find someone screaming at me and taking hold of my horse!


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## Alfami (5 October 2012)

OK, I don't often venture into NL and I will confess that I haven't read the entire thread (I don't have a spare 4 hours ) BUT, I am so mad that I need to say something!!

I am married to a farm manager.  Nothing, and I mean NOTHING gives anyone the right to ride over land that doesn't belong to them.  As others have said, it's like randomly walking through someone elses living room.  IF you have asked permission (and been granted it!) then fine, but do so considerately.

The 'big headlands' to which you all refer are part of an environmental stewardship scheme.  They may seem like grass/hay to you lot, but the farmer will be being paid to maintain them as wildlife habitats.  I hope it goes without saying that horses traipsing over them is not conducive to maintaining wildlife.  A farmer should not have to put notices up to warn you off - it's your prerogative to ride only where you are allowed to do so.  The farmer would have been hopping mad for one main reason - those stewardship strips form part of his annual subsidy claim to the government (money that most farms cannot survive without).  If the farm owner is found to be in breach of ANY part of his claim (& that includes 'trafic' on his margins) then it is possible that he will lose all the money - and hence his livelihood.  This is not a minor deal, it's a massive one to him.

I am not condoning him hanging onto your horses bridle, nor the fact that he frightened you.  PLEASE though consider him - potentially there's a lot of money at risk; he spends all hours trying to make things add up (my other half has worked 7 days a week, non-stop, since June.  During harvest he was working 18-20 hour days and even now is still working 14+).  He's probably knackered and extremely pi$$ed off that someone feels they can ride anywhere just because it doesn't say you can't.

Whilst I'm ranting, stubble fields are in the same bracket.  PLEASE don't ride on them unless you have asked for permission.  Nowadays they can be 'direct drilled' (ie no cultivation occurs) and you could be merrily cantering over next years crop.

Rant over - I hope you sort it out amicably.


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## christine48 (5 October 2012)

Alfami said:



			OK, I don't often venture into NL and I will confess that I haven't read the entire thread (I don't have a spare 4 hours ) BUT, I am so mad that I need to say something!!

I am married to a farm manager.  Nothing, and I mean NOTHING gives anyone the right to ride over land that doesn't belong to them.  As others have said, it's like randomly walking through someone elses living room.  IF you have asked permission (and been granted it!) then fine, but do so considerately.

The 'big headlands' to which you all refer are part of an environmental stewardship scheme.  They may seem like grass/hay to you lot, but the farmer will be being paid to maintain them as wildlife habitats.  I hope it goes without saying that horses traipsing over them is not conducive to maintaining wildlife.  A farmer should not have to put notices up to warn you off - it's your prerogative to ride only where you are allowed to do so.  The farmer would have been hopping mad for one main reason - those stewardship strips form part of his annual subsidy claim to the government (money that most farms cannot survive without).  If the farm owner is found to be in breach of ANY part of his claim (& that includes 'trafic' on his margins) then it is possible that he will lose all the money - and hence his livelihood.  This is not a minor deal, it's a massive one to him.

I am not condoning him hanging onto your horses bridle, nor the fact that he frightened you.  PLEASE though consider him - potentially there's a lot of money at risk; he spends all hours trying to make things add up (my other half has worked 7 days a week, non-stop, since June.  During harvest he was working 18-20 hour days and even now is still working 14+).  He's probably knackered and extremely pi$$ed off that someone feels they can ride anywhere just because it doesn't say you can't.

Whilst I'm ranting, stubble fields are in the same bracket.  PLEASE don't ride on them unless you have asked for permission.  Nowadays they can be 'direct drilled' (ie no cultivation occurs) and you could be merrily cantering over next years crop.

Rant over - I hope you sort it out amicably.
		
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Well said!


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## Double_choc_lab (5 October 2012)

Having read some of the replies I think JK Rowling has competition for fantasy writing.  Ideas such as the horse could rear up fall over and kill her - then what - strike out kill the LO - race onto a road in front of a school bus and cause and accident before slipping off a bridge onto a railway line.

Also lots of suggestions as to what the OP should say to the police.

Just tell the truth. She trespassed, LO held the horse (can't assault a horse its an animal) and she then assaulted LO.  END OF


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## Inthemud (5 October 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			Some of these scenarios you guys are making up to justify the landowner's decision to grab the horse are truly hilarious, guys.

Imagine, you're on a ride, your horse gets nervous and starts bouncing around, and some random stranger on foot decides he's going to calm your horse down by grabbing its bridle and hang on for dear life, even when you tell him to let go.  I bet you'd appreciate that.
		
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If OP had actually been scared during the incident, surely she would have bothered to notify the police over the next week.

My guess is that this is trolling.


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## Amaranta (5 October 2012)

MadisonBelle said:



			But how do you know she is ARROGANT? We don't know her.....many people have said they too have ACCIDENTLY missed a sign/whatever and gone from a bridle path to a farmers land........

I have no idea what I would have done but I do know that I would have been mortified to be on private land and would then have been horrified to find someone screaming at me and taking hold of my horse!
		
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The fact that she can see that she has done nothing wrong shows just how arrogant she is, all evidence shows that she makes a habit of riding over other people's land without permission, stupidity at best, arrogance at worst.


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## fburton (5 October 2012)

Alfami said:



			ONothing, and I mean NOTHING gives anyone the right to ride over land that doesn't belong to them.  As others have said, it's like randomly walking through someone elses living room.
		
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It's not really. Entering wide open space would not normally considered an invasion of privacy, whereas walking through someone's house would. A garden can, should and - as far as I know - is considered in the same way as a house.




			IF you have asked permission (and been granted it!) then fine, but do so considerately.
		
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Agreed.


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## CAYLA (5 October 2012)

martlin said:



			No, you wouldn't but what if it ''looks'' like a stubble field, but is in fact a directly drilled or undersown crop, just sprouting up and very vunerable?
		
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Again I would not ride over that, I would stick to the outside of the field.


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## Clava (5 October 2012)

fburton said:



			It's not really. Entering wide open space would not normally considered an invasion of privacy, whereas walking through someone's house would. A garden can, should and - as far as I know - is considered in the same way as a house.


Agreed.
		
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It is trespass nothing to do with privacy.


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## Alfami (5 October 2012)

It's not really. Entering wide open space would not normally considered an invasion of privacy, whereas walking through someone's house would. A garden can, should and - as far as I know - is considered in the same way as a house.

But isn't that pedantry based on the size/level of enclosure of someone's possession? The fields BELONG to the farmer, they represent his livelihood and to him are the most precious possessions he has (or, in my husbands case, he manages (for a living), he doesn't even own them).  If we agree that walking through a garden is inappropriate, where do we draw the line?  I'm pretty sure Posh & Beck's garden is bigger than most arable fields - can we ride over that then?  Actually, it's not a million miles away from me, perhaps I should box over there and give it a go?


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## Alfami (5 October 2012)

It's not really. Entering wide open space would not normally considered an invasion of privacy, whereas walking through someone's house would. A garden can, should and - as far as I know - is considered in the same way as a house.
		
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But isn't that pedantry based on the size/level of enclosure of someone's possession? The fields BELONG to the farmer, they represent his livelihood and to him are the most precious possessions he has (or, in my husbands case, he manages (for a living), he doesn't even own them).  If we agree that walking through a garden is inappropriate, where do we draw the line?  I'm pretty sure Posh & Beck's garden is bigger than most arable fields - can we ride over that then?  Actually, it's not a million miles away from me, perhaps I should box over there and give it a go?


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## birchave0 (5 October 2012)

CAYLA said:



			Again I would not ride over that, I would stick to the outside of the field.
		
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but how do you know that the headland had not been sown also?
plus most importantly if there is no footpath or bridlepath why would you be on the land in the first place???


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## birchave0 (5 October 2012)

Alfami said:



			OK, I don't often venture into NL and I will confess that I haven't read the entire thread (I don't have a spare 4 hours ) BUT, I am so mad that I need to say something!!

I am married to a farm manager.  Nothing, and I mean NOTHING gives anyone the right to ride over land that doesn't belong to them.  As others have said, it's like randomly walking through someone elses living room.  IF you have asked permission (and been granted it!) then fine, but do so considerately.

The 'big headlands' to which you all refer are part of an environmental stewardship scheme.  They may seem like grass/hay to you lot, but the farmer will be being paid to maintain them as wildlife habitats.  I hope it goes without saying that horses traipsing over them is not conducive to maintaining wildlife.  A farmer should not have to put notices up to warn you off - it's your prerogative to ride only where you are allowed to do so.  The farmer would have been hopping mad for one main reason - those stewardship strips form part of his annual subsidy claim to the government (money that most farms cannot survive without).  If the farm owner is found to be in breach of ANY part of his claim (& that includes 'trafic' on his margins) then it is possible that he will lose all the money - and hence his livelihood.  This is not a minor deal, it's a massive one to him.

I am not condoning him hanging onto your horses bridle, nor the fact that he frightened you.  PLEASE though consider him - potentially there's a lot of money at risk; he spends all hours trying to make things add up (my other half has worked 7 days a week, non-stop, since June.  During harvest he was working 18-20 hour days and even now is still working 14+).  He's probably knackered and extremely pi$$ed off that someone feels they can ride anywhere just because it doesn't say you can't.

Whilst I'm ranting, stubble fields are in the same bracket.  PLEASE don't ride on them unless you have asked for permission.  Nowadays they can be 'direct drilled' (ie no cultivation occurs) and you could be merrily cantering over next years crop.

Rant over - I hope you sort it out amicably.
		
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^^^^^^^^^^

this!!!!


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## CAYLA (5 October 2012)

birchave0 said:



			but how do you know that the headland had not been sown also?
plus most importantly if there is no footpath or bridlepath why would you be on the land in the first place???
		
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I personally would not (I walk on a path) I stated that! 2 of the paths are like hard core, some concrete, some look like 2 lareg tractor imprints perminantly (nothing planted there)
The OP may well have riden on the land I dont know (I personally dont) however my original reply still stands, he was out of order in his action. 
She to was out of order but she claims (she apologised and was leaving)
I am not saying she was right, im saying he was definately not right either


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## Pale Rider (5 October 2012)

I agree that riders shouldn't be trespassing, equally farmers and their workers shouldn't be driving like plonkers around the lanes because they are 'busy', aren't we all, where riders do have a right to be.
A bit of give and take helps.
I'd hate to think that a wildlife subsidy might be withdrawn because a horse walked over it. Makes you want to shoot a badger!


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Ah, OP is back on line.  She might update us with the current situation......


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## Patterdale (5 October 2012)

PR your posts always amuse me. 

Particularly when not intended.


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## *hic* (5 October 2012)

amymay said:



			Ah, OP is back on line.  She might update us with the current situation......
		
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Nope she's gone again - on long enough to read thread but obviously decided not to update. Ah well.


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## Pale Rider (5 October 2012)

You're right Patterdale, I only intend to amuse myself, lol.


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## paddocktractor (5 October 2012)

Cant believe the different views on this subject.
reading thread guess people are 50/50 on it ,which i find surprising.
1.She said she would leave and not come back,this wasnt good enough for farmer?
2.she is on her own with a animal ,farmer should of respected horse as he wasnt  at  fault.
3.If she was damging crops i am sure he would have mentioned this to police along with the whipping.
4.He sounds a bad tempered jumped up prat to me and got whats coming.
5.Cant people live and let live ,its nice to see a fair maiden on horse back as long as its not damging crops ,if itwas kids on motor bikes ripping it up then fair enough.
6.I am involed with farming and this time of year stubble fields are fair game and we have several horsey farmers who leave grass strips all year for horses.
7. Dont take this as i have no respect for landowner as i do,she made a mistake but he should be man enough to say ok just dont come back.


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## Alfami (5 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			I'd hate to think that a wildlife subsidy might be withdrawn because a horse walked over it. Makes you want to shoot a badger!
		
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Leaving badgers out of it, that's kind of the point I was trying to make.  The wildlife bit of the subsidy is a tiny percentage (for most).  BUT if any single part of the agreement is not adhered to, the entire subsidy is at risk - and with it the farmer's livelihood.

I agree there are tractor-drivers out there who are ignorant when they pass horses, but my original reply was trying to convey that these are people under a lot of stress at this time of the year.  We've all had bad days at work, right?  Days when you've snapped over something 'small' because lots of things are getting on top of you?  Add a crappy summer's weather to a poor harvest and cue one very stressed farmer.  He didn't need to react as he did, no.  But in my opinion the young lady could have given him her details and he would probably just have written a letter of complaint, or asked the police to warn her off.

As for the comment about 'fair maidens on horseback', words fail me.


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## NeverSayNever (5 October 2012)

Alfami said:



			I am married to a farm manager.  Nothing, and I mean NOTHING gives anyone the right to ride over land that doesn't belong to them.  As others have said, it's like randomly walking through someone elses living room.  IF you have asked permission (and been granted it!) then fine, but do so considerately.
.
		
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dont ever consider moving north of the border then, reckon you wouldn&#8217;t like it much because actually NOTHING gives you the right to stop someone up here unless you can prove damage is being caused.

stubble fields round here aren&#8217;t ever undersown either.

my family own a few hundred acres of croftland, so its not as if Im completely talking from the other side of the fence.


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## Alfami (5 October 2012)

NeverSayNever said:



			dont ever consider moving north of the border then, reckon you wouldnt like it much because actually NOTHING gives you the right to stop someone up here unless you can prove damage is being caused.

stubble fields round here arent ever undersown either.

my family own a few hundred acres of croftland, so its not as if Im completely talking from the other side of the fence.
		
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 Wow!  Even if they're on horseback?  Surely you could stop them if they're on land managed for production (& yes, I would include grass in that).  That has to be incredibly annoying.  Is stubble never direct-drilled with OSR, or are you too far North for that?


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## NeverSayNever (5 October 2012)

Alfami said:



 Wow!  Even if they're on horseback?  Surely you could stop them if they're on land managed for production (& yes, I would include grass in that).  That has to be incredibly annoying.  Is stubble never direct-drilled with OSR, or are you too far North for that?
		
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well if its managed for production and going to cause damage then no they shouldnt be there, but you cant just blanket say, get awwf my land  As the leaflets about the Countryside Access code etc say, With the rights come responsibilities   No to the stubble question, occasionally its undersown for grass but tends to be if its going to be permanently changed to grazing.


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## Marydoll (5 October 2012)

If you follow the code, you wont enter the field where crops are growing, or if theve got livestock in them, unless its a right of way.
Im very lucky ive got 100s of acres to ride over, mainly stubble fields, but do have access to grasslands and tracks, but id still always stay to the edges unless ive asked if its ok to blast over it.
We also have access to woods and tracks but again need to careful if its breeding time for the birds, in the main it works if as a rider you obey the rules and talk to the people who's land you want to ride over.


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## bonny (5 October 2012)

Alfami said:



 Wow!  Even if they're on horseback?  Surely you could stop them if they're on land managed for production (& yes, I would include grass in that).  That has to be incredibly annoying.  Is stubble never direct-drilled with OSR, or are you too far North for that?
		
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Horseback, walking or cycling we are free to go wherever we like here and surprisingly it works ! Also in answer to your Posh and Becks question, gardens are only off limits if they are garden sized, celebrities have gone to court to argue that people should be barred from their estates and as far as I know have all lost.


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## OWLIE185 (5 October 2012)

I am a land owner who is in receipt of single area payments etc.  There is absolutely nothing in the conditions that prevent horse riders from riding on wild life field margins and in fact I allow it.  I have never suffered any damage caused by horse riders and in fact I enjoy seeing horse riders riding accross my land.


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## paddocktractor (5 October 2012)

Think all agreed that to damage crops, etc is wrong and if you are not welcome you keep away.
Been a grumpy farmer or worker is no defence ,most people have stress to deal with.
If i was a privileged to own a large estate farm ,i hope i would  let it benefit others and wildlife aswell as myself.
What about the hunts ,that would make grumpy farmer boil


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## bonny (5 October 2012)

OWLIE185 said:



			I am a land owner who is in receipt of single area payments etc.  There is absolutely nothing in the conditions that prevent horse riders from riding on wild life field margins and in fact I allow it.  I have never suffered any damage caused by horse riders and in fact I enjoy seeing horse riders riding accross my land.
		
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Brilliant post and well said. The excuse of losing payments is used by farmers as another reason to stop people going on land. Why should they recieve money for leaving land vacant and still stop other people enjoying the countryside ? If only more landowners felt like you the world would be a better place.


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## NeverSayNever (5 October 2012)

OWLIE185 said:



			I am a land owner who is in receipt of single area payments etc.  There is absolutely nothing in the conditions that prevent horse riders from riding on wild life field margins and in fact I allow it.  I have never suffered any damage caused by horse riders and in fact I enjoy seeing horse riders riding accross my land.
		
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paddocktractor said:



			Think all agreed that to damage crops, etc is wrong and if you are not welcome you keep away.
Been a grumpy farmer or worker is no defence ,most people have stress to deal with.
If i was a privileged to own a large estate farm ,i hope i would  let it benefit others and wildlife aswell as myself.
What about the hunts ,that would make grumpy farmer boil

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how lovely to hear! You sound more like the farmers round us! I regularly get waves from the guys working round here in tractors and they often turn off the engine for us to pass, even in their fields


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## Miss L Toe (5 October 2012)

Nothing gives people the right to walk over land, well neversaydie, do you never go out for a walk round the farm?
After all if your OH was working in Amazon.co.uk, this would not give you the right to go in to the premises and start reading the books.


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## Miss L Toe (5 October 2012)

joeanne said:



			So I should fence my front garden to keep people out? Don't think so!
I know, when I ride past 30 acres of expensive wheat, that its not mine to ride across.
It really is as SIMPLE as that!
		
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I don't think OP mentioned a field of wheat, did I miss a posting?


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## Equilibrium Ireland (5 October 2012)

I kind of want to know what kind of whip was used because that is confusing me. I, wanting to see how kind the racing whips were here, slashed myself a good few times on bare legs. Nothing, nada. Slight red mark


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## Irishdan (5 October 2012)

OWLIE185 said:



			I am a land owner who is in receipt of single area payments etc.  There is absolutely nothing in the conditions that prevent horse riders from riding on wild life field margins and in fact I allow it.  I have never suffered any damage caused by horse riders and in fact I enjoy seeing horse riders riding accross my land.
		
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Owlie - I think I love you LOL!!  What a breath of fresh air 

The thing that seriously gets my back up is the attitude of the LO/Farmer/Land Manager etc on approaching trespassers.  Im sure a lot more could be achieved doing things in a calm way than shouting and swearing from the word go, as many do.  After my incident with my little irrate, red faced farmer with serious anger issues I spoke to the Police who in turn were quite concerned about his aggression given that he was a fire arms holder!!

The laws in Scotland make perfect sense to me and allow everyone to enjoy the countryside


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## Miss L Toe (5 October 2012)

NeverSayNever said:



			there are not automatic rights that come with being a landowner that allow you to take the law into to your own hands and scare young girls. His age means nothing, he may have grown up Granddaughters but that doesnt mean he couldnt have been or wasnt a threat to her with sinister intentions!

I still say that he was ultimately in the wrong! Yes, she was in the wrong to a lesser extent by being where she shouldnt have been going by the ass that is English law, however he CROSSED A LINE and if hed let go sooner he wouldnt have welts at all!
		
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Sorry, is OP an underage person now, if so she should not have been out on her own, perhaps her parents should be charged with child neglect.  If she can't handle herself she should stay in the manege.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (5 October 2012)

Geez, I hate getting cut off!

Anyway, while everyone is busy defending a non posting could be land owner, I just want to know the whip used. Because as much as maybe her story doesn't add up why do we assume he's the victim and what he says is the truth? I mean was he naked? The weather has been crap. Even a dressage whip isn't going to leave marks on the back as described with a jacket. Maybe a T shirt. And all on his back? Pretty good aim in the heat of the moment. You'd think he'd have been struck at least once in the face. But hey if I need to hurt myself probably not gonna wail on myself in the face. Back, yeah, I can handle that.

You know, devil's advocate and all. It's not just for the OP you know.

Terri


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## Miss L Toe (5 October 2012)

Alfami said:



 Wow!  Even if they're on horseback?  Surely you could stop them if they're on land managed for production (& yes, I would include grass in that).  That has to be incredibly annoying.  Is stubble never direct-drilled with OSR, or are you too far North for that?
		
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Horses, bikes, carriages,  and people have the right of access, but I have to tell  you that it is not as easy as that, one has to behave and cause no damage, so cantering in a group through a herd of cows would cause damage, also there are not that many routes to take, as all farms are surrounded by their own fences, so one can't go from farm to farm across the land, also bogs are unsafe.
The average horse owner would not know a newly harvested grass field from undersown OSR, or winter wheat,  so really they have to stick to obvious fields, which usually start and end on roads. The farm roads often end up in farmyards , this invades privacy, so they are not much use as far as hacking is concerned. Also the BHS do not want to trample on anybody's toes, so don't do anything to ensure that access is part of planning applications eg on windfarms.


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## CAYLA (5 October 2012)

NeverSayNever said:



			how lovely to hear! You sound more like the farmers round us! I regularly get waves from the guys working round here in tractors and they often turn off the engine for us to pass, even in their fields

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Ditto ^^^^ and how refreshing, you also sound more like the farmers where I live too


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## Miss L Toe (5 October 2012)

bonny said:



			Brilliant post and well said. The excuse of losing payments is used by farmers as another reason to stop people going on land. Why should they recieve money for leaving land vacant and still stop other people enjoying the countryside ? If only more landowners felt like you the world would be a better place.
		
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Intermittent pooping creates biodiversity.


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## Miss L Toe (5 October 2012)

NeverSayNever said:



			yes, if it was in self defence and trying to get away, he was warned to let go. annnnnyway, round in circles. That&#8217;s my take on it, am off to burn round some stubble 

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Clean Air Act 1977?


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## NeverSayNever (5 October 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Clean Air Act 1977?
		
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eh?????????


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## Miss L Toe (5 October 2012)

patterdale said:



			Shadeyoak I can't quote but your point about food becoming ever expensive and therefore will all have to be fenced for protection one day soon (or words to that effect) had me in stitches. 

How on EARTH would someone steal a wheat crop?? Go combining in the dead of night!?

Thanks for those hilarious images!! 

Click to expand...

I have seen people combining at night, they are worse than travellers, out there with their John Deere coveralls, and their wellies bought from a CountryStore,  headlamps set to "dazzle", I believe they have GPS and in-cab radio as standard.


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## Miss L Toe (5 October 2012)

NeverSayNever said:



			eh?????????
		
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You can't just go around burning stuff, this is not a third world country, next thing you know,  farm managers' wifes will be taking a walk round the farm, tresspassing on land they don't own.


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## Dry Rot (5 October 2012)

Can't help thinking the press are going to have a field day when they pick up on this story...if they haven't done so already!

Will that really enhance the image of the horse rider in the eyes of Joe Public?

Half are going to think "arrogant bitch" while the rest will think "arrogant landowner"! 

The press can't lose either way!


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## NeverSayNever (5 October 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			You can't just go around burning stuff, this is not a third world country, next thing you know,  farm managers' wifes will be taking a walk round the farm
		
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burn baby burn !! 













not sure if the emissions of my horse come under this act, but her noxious gasses will offend the farm managers wife for sure !


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## paddocktractor (5 October 2012)

Dry Rot said:



			Can't help think the press are going to have a field day when they pick up on this story...if they haven't done so already!

Will that really enhance the image of the horse rider in the eyes of Joe Public?
		
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The war between man and horse ,car and horse was not started by this thread cant think that it will have a great public intrest.
My horses image is clean hasnt even got a tatto hes a good boy


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## Miss L Toe (5 October 2012)

paddocktractor said:



			Cant believe the different views on this subject.
reading thread guess people are 50/50 on it ,which i find surprising.
1.She said she would leave and not come back,this wasnt good enough for farmer?
2.she is on her own with a animal ,farmer should of respected horse as he wasnt  at  fault.
3.If she was damging crops i am sure he would have mentioned this to police along with the whipping.
4.He sounds a bad tempered jumped up prat to me and got whats coming.
5.Cant people live and let live ,its nice to see a fair maiden on horse back as long as its not damging crops ,if itwas kids on motor bikes ripping it up then fair enough.
6.I am involed with farming and this time of year stubble fields are fair game and we have several horsey farmers who leave grass strips all year for horses.
7. Dont take this as i have no respect for landowner as i do,she made a mistake but he should be man enough to say ok just dont come back.
		
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That's all a bit confusing, was this fair maiden dressed as Lady Godiva?, was she in drag, and was the farmer was upset by this "man up" business.
Is it only fair maidens who are to be allowed to ride on white palfreys, so dark skinned old hags have to keep off?


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## Miss L Toe (5 October 2012)

Is that a piccy of NeverSayNever cantering on undersown stubble?
She is asking for CC folks, don't hold back!


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## paddocktractor (5 October 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			That's all a bit confusing, was this fair maiden dressed as Lady Godiva?, was she in drag, and was the farmer was upset by this "man up" business.
Is it only fair maidens who are to be allowed to ride on white palfreys, so dark skinned old hags have to keep off?
		
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Yes i am very confusing,
i would kick all drag artists and old hags of my land except on christmas day.
Hope this thread isnt decending to drizzle.
I wouldnt be on here if i handnt fell off horse while whipping a tresspassing peasant .
P.S the wife is taking my boy hunting tomorow ,while my broken bones mend.


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## Miss L Toe (5 October 2012)

paddocktractor said:



			.      the wife is taking my boy hunting tomorow ,while my broken bones mend.
		
Click to expand...

Lift up your bed and walk, is it aggravated man flu? 
..............imho, men should be out there, working properly, at least hard enough to allow their  wives to have their own horses.
P.S. I felt this "the wife" expression contributed significantly to my first divorce, I realised that he thought I was in the same category as "The Dog" and "The Farm"
So he was relegated to the same category as "the pain in the ass"


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## Alfami (5 October 2012)

OWLIE185 said:



			I am a land owner who is in receipt of single area payments etc.  There is absolutely nothing in the conditions that prevent horse riders from riding on wild life field margins and in fact I allow it.  I have never suffered any damage caused by horse riders and in fact I enjoy seeing horse riders riding accross my land.
		
Click to expand...

I beg to differ. Read the management codes for every option that applies to your margins under either ELS or HLS - preventing unnecessary 'traffic' is on the list.  Read also your Cross Compliance booklet and you'll see that contravening stipulated management agreements puts your SFP (note, not area payments anymore - and haven't been for quite some time) at risk.  Anyone who follows a law-abiding hunt should be able to back me up - frequently we're asked NOT to ride on a grass margin, for exactly the reasons mentioned above.

If you allow riding on yours, then (as a horse rider) good for you, but only if you are happy to put that SFP cheque at risk.

D'ya know what though?  Whole post has got silly now.  I tried to offer an explanation as to just why the LO mentioned in the original post was just so angry.  Farmers are not (all) miserable ba$tards trying to remove horses from their land just because they can.  We'd all like to live in harmony, but sometimes people just don't make that possible.

I'm off to ride over the grounds of Beckingham Palace................


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## Miss L Toe (5 October 2012)

Alfami said:



			I beg to differ. Read the management codes for every option that applies to your margins under either ELS or HLS - preventing unnecessary 'traffic' is on the list.  Read also your Cross Compliance booklet and you'll see that contravening stipulated management agreements puts your SFP (note, not area payments anymore - and haven't been for quite some time) at risk.  Anyone who follows a law-abiding hunt should be able to back me up - frequently we're asked NOT to ride on a grass margin, for exactly the reasons mentioned above.

If you allow riding on yours, then (as a horse rider) good for you, but only if you are happy to put that SFP cheque at risk.

D'ya know what though?  Whole post has got silly now.  I tried to offer an explanation as to just why the LO mentioned in the original post was just so angry.  Farmers are not (all) miserable ba$tards trying to remove horses from their land just because they can.  We'd all like to live in harmony, but sometimes people just don't make that possible.


I'm off to ride over the grounds of Beckingham Palace................
		
Click to expand...

Traffic covers things like regular use by a tractor and trailer, not one horse ridden by  a lady rider.


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## Alfami (5 October 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Traffic covers things like regular use by a tractor and trailer, not one horse ridden by  a lady rider.
		
Click to expand...

Again, I'm afraid I beg to differ.  What it actually says (& I'm quoting directly from the handbook.  This is for ELS which is the less onerous of the two), depending on which option has been undertaken is 

"......there should be no tracks, compacted areas or poaching".  

Now, speak to a Natural England advisor (& they're the guys that run the scheme) and you'll find out that this means no access by anything likely to leave a track (that includes a horse), anything likely to squash the soil (yep, that'll include a horse) and anything likely to cause poaching (horses are very good at this, but admittedly only in the wet).

I suspect that if you were the only individual to ride along a margin, once, you may get away with it in a court of law.  But is it worth it?  How was the original LO to know that she'd only been there once and wasn't likely to do it again unless he challenged her?  We weren't there, nobody other than the two individuals involved can make any assumptions about the conduct of the LO or indeed the rider.

As for whoever it was who said something along the lines of 'why should farmers get paid for doing nothing', I have no intention of starting the debate here (it's not appropriate for this forum) but if you'd like a lesson in European agricultural economics, feel free to PM me.

Can you tell I'm cross now?


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## paddocktractor (5 October 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Lift up your bed and walk, is it aggravated man flu? 
..............imho, men should be out there, working properly, at least hard enough to allow their  wives to have their own horses.
P.S. I felt this "the wife" expression contributed significantly to my first divorce, I realised that he thought I was in the same category as "The Dog" and "The Farm"
So he was relegated to the same category as "the pain in the ass"
		
Click to expand...

you sound familer ,you not my wife are you?
I was stupid enough to fall off broke collarbone and ribs and very brusied pride
Wife has got her own horse we have five at min.
I promise i dont put her in the dog and home category as the dog cant cook and the house wont clean itself


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## Darremi (5 October 2012)

Contrary to popular belief the so called Scottish "right to roam" does not give an individual the right to walk/ride/bicycle "pretty much anywhere" and certainly does not permit persons to "roam" in another's garden.


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## DragonSlayer (5 October 2012)

I last read this thread at page 2 and I have the option for 40 posts a page....I can't believe it's at page 16 for me....??

I don't think I'm going to read through 640 posts.......


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## martlin (5 October 2012)

Excellent posts, Alfami, you saved me a lot of typing 
I would like to raise one point, though... there is nothing wrong with removing/barring people from your land just because you can. Basically, it's yours and you don't want people on it, it's perfectly understandable to me.
I have no rights of way over my land, I ride my horses in some of my fields, I am not happy for others to do so, or actually, I will share my fields when they share my mortgage payments


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## Alfami (5 October 2012)

martlin said:



			Excellent posts, Alfami, you saved me a lot of typing 
I would like to raise one point, though... there is nothing wrong with removing/barring people from your land just because you can. Basically, it's yours and you don't want people on it, it's perfectly understandable to me.
I have no rights of way over my land, I ride my horses in some of my fields, I am not happy for others to do so, or actually, I will share my fields when they share my mortgage payments 

Click to expand...

I need a 'LIKE' button.  I'm going to sign off now.  I really need to get a life - why does this stuff wind me up so much?    Wine anyone?


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## Cinnamontoast (5 October 2012)

paddocktractor said:



			I promise i dont put her in the dog and home category as the dog cant cook and the house wont clean itself
		
Click to expand...

Pmsl, PT!


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## joelb (5 October 2012)

Interesting post here from OP.....some of you have been had.  Sympathies to LO poor chap. 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=10281535#post10281535


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## paddocktractor (5 October 2012)

I manage miles of field margins and els ,i contract spray them.
I THINK (alfmai) they can cut them every third year shame they cant be baled what a waste but thats the EU for you, 
I have seen some with cx jumps on them(i know its not allowed but ive seen it) ,i have never heard of any non payments because of horse damge or been kicked off sfp.
Alfmai i understand where you are coming from ,but think that this whole thread is about respect for each other farmer and rider and except people make mistakes


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## wench (5 October 2012)

She's been well and truly rumbled now. Hope she gets everything she deserves


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## Jesstickle (5 October 2012)

joelb said:



			Interesting post here from OP.....some of you have been had.  Sympathies to LO poor chap. 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=10281535#post10281535

Click to expand...

Now, not wanting to sound smug but I _ did _ tell you so!! 

  

Now everyone who disagreed with me, how can I expect your apology? 

ETS; amazing detective work their joelb


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## Wagtail (5 October 2012)

joelb said:



			Interesting post here from OP.....some of you have been had.  Sympathies to LO poor chap. 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=10281535#post10281535

Click to expand...

What a c*w! 

I note she also hits her children. I wonder how hard if she denies repeatedly whipping the farmer?


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## Maesfen (5 October 2012)

jesstickle said:



			Now, not wanting to sound smug but I _ did _ tell you so!! 

  

Now everyone who disagreed with me, how can I expect your apology? 

ETS; amazing detective work their joelb 

Click to expand...

Go on, feel smug, I do!


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## Jesstickle (5 October 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Go on, feel smug, I do! 





Click to expand...

O I do, don't you worry  I also wonder if the OP has worked out who the hell I am that called her out or not. I bet she can't


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## Cinnamontoast (5 October 2012)

Excellent work, CSI HHO once more!

Just the relevant post:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=10281535&postcount=107


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## DragonSlayer (5 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			What a c*w! 

I note she also hits her children. I wonder how hard if she denies repeatedly whipping the farmer?
		
Click to expand...

Where's the bit about hitting her children....?


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## Jesstickle (5 October 2012)

DragonSlayer said:



			Where's the bit about hitting her children....?
		
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It says she smacks the horse not beats (same as children but isn't that illegal now, should I be in prison?)

Or words to that effect.


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## rhino (5 October 2012)

Jess - seriously I would screenshot both the initial post in this thread in the quoted one and the more recent 'revelation' and make sure that the farmer has a copy of them. It really is people like this that give horseriders a bad name.


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## Jesstickle (5 October 2012)

rhino said:



			Jess - seriously I would screenshot both the initial post in this thread in the quoted one and the more recent 'revelation' and make sure that the farmer has a copy of them. It really is people like this that give horseriders a bad name.
		
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Is that not meddling? I don't know if it is or not really.


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## FfionWinnie (5 October 2012)

joelb said:



			Interesting post here from OP.....some of you have been had.  Sympathies to LO poor chap. 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=10281535#post10281535

Click to expand...

Darwin Award candidate then


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## rhino (5 October 2012)

jesstickle said:



			Is that not meddling? I don't know if it is or not really.
		
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I wouldn't hesitate if it was someone I knew.. Have been reading a few of OP's other posts - just got to the one where she happily admits using her phone/texting when she's riding as she 'doesn't care what drivers think of her'  Seems like the accusations of being arrogant are completely justified.


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## Bikerchickone (5 October 2012)

Can't quote but totally agree with Rhino. She needs to be stopped before she gives all riders a really bad name. 

I'm starting to hope she's too arrogant to apologise so she then finds out what the worst that can happen legally actually is. 

No wonder the poor landowner was cross, he's probably seen her many times.


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## Jesstickle (5 October 2012)

ok. I'll consider what to do then


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## MerrySherryRider (5 October 2012)

Smart work Joelb. 

I just wondered how some people were fooled anyway, her initial post gave all the clues of an arrogant, rude rider. 
Beating an old man with a whip was a bit of a give away too.


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## MissChaos (5 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			Loving the replies! 

Mine - feed polos to my lad daily. 
Smack him (NOT beat) if he's naughty. (same as kids really, but I believe that I now banned, so should I be in prison?)
Change rugs looses in field. 
Dismount the wrong way (swing leg over withers)
Trot or canter on people's lawns in front of their houses. (the bit between the wall and the road).
Trespass all over private land (catch me if you can)
*Swear (politely)* at farmers who tell me to get off their land.
The rest are MUCH too wicked to say in public.
		
Click to expand...

Oxymoron... from a moron 

Jess, people like this are utterly detrimental to the active campaigning some people do and to the efforts of the rest of us to at least keep the peace and go by the rules - things are hard enough! I can see why you'd hesitate but in this particular situation, I'd seriously consider passing this on to anyone 'useful' if you are so able.


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## pixie (5 October 2012)

Jess: In your position, I would not hesitate to pass on copies of what the OP has written.  She sounds like a nasty piece of work who deserves what comes to her.  I hope she gets charged with assault.  Poor man


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## rhino (5 October 2012)

This isn't a silly little teenager who will grow up and realise she's been acting like, well, a silly little teenager.

This is a woman of nearly 40 with children/teenagers of her own. Great example to set to them!


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## Zoobie (5 October 2012)

For restorative justice the offender has to admit some guilt before the mediation meeting is made, so have you admitted some guilt already ? also how did the police know how to find you when you didn't give details ?


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## Renvers (5 October 2012)

joelb said:



			Interesting post here from OP.....some of you have been had.  Sympathies to LO poor chap. 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=10281535#post10281535

Click to expand...

Well done - Detective Joelb 

I can't believe that anyone would have produced such a damning admission of their own guilt a year before the offence. Class!


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## rhino (5 October 2012)

Renvers said:



			Well done - Detective Joelb 

I can't believe that anyone would have produced such a damning admission of their own guilt a year before the offence. Class!
		
Click to expand...

I would have said _lack of_ class, personally


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## NeverSayNever (5 October 2012)

fair enough guys, she does sound like a real madam who gives riders a bad name. I still think the LO did the wrong thing trying to detain her, he should have called the police.


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## rockysmum (5 October 2012)

Just because this woman was wrong does not mean the LO was right.

Yes she sounds like a total idiot, but what if it had been someone else.

Would you think he was right if it had been another girl or woman who had made a genuine mistake.

If someone did that to my daughter while out riding our warmblood I would be bloody furious.

Even I would have felt threatened and I am well used to abusing behaviour at work.  Difference there is there are people around.  

Sorry but I still think his behaviour was very wrong


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## MissChaos (5 October 2012)

If the account OP gave originally was right, then LO would indeed be in the wrong (while she would also for having been there in the first place).

However, not only are there two sides to every story but it seems from many posts since that OP may have been somewhat economical with the truth - and if she had somehow by an extraordinary coincidence have cried wolf at some point, she can't say she's helped herself. 

We can only go on that when responding - just as we can only go on what the OP says as well and give informed opinions with the disclaimer that goes with using forums that it could all be guff in RL.


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## Maesfen (5 October 2012)

alidegg said:



			FWIW, she can't have been that concerned about the horse's mouth as per the original post as she regularly rides in a pelham with just the curb rein (no roundings). I have encountered her out hunting (same pack) and can verify the local opinion Jess gave of her...
		
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By the sound of it, she should have an ASBO against her, I'm surprised the whole village haven't given her one already, she sounds a real pain in the arse.


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## HBM1 (5 October 2012)

Who is to say she didnt try to trample the poor man. I would definitely print that out...it shows previous and long standing behaviour...and a great deal of smug pride in what she does.


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## Patterdale (5 October 2012)

Well ha ha bl**dy ha. 

Am amazed at the people that did get taken in, OP smacked of arrogance and self justification. 

Plus old man beating. 

I hope she sees this and it makes her think about her behaviour. Gives us all a bad name, and just plays up to the stereotype of horsey ladies thinking that they are above everybody else. 

Jesstickle, it might be awkward todo but I hope you do somehow make the LO aware of these posts.


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## Patterdale (5 October 2012)

Also can't believe that some people are STILL sticking up for her....


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## Renvers (5 October 2012)

rhino said:



			I would have said _lack of_ class, personally  

Click to expand...

Like


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## Maesfen (5 October 2012)

I liked Rhino's comment too, classic!


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## marmalade76 (5 October 2012)

OWLIE185 said:



			I am a land owner who is in receipt of single area payments etc.  There is absolutely nothing in the conditions that prevent horse riders from riding on wild life field margins and in fact I allow it.  I have never suffered any damage caused by horse riders and in fact I enjoy seeing horse riders riding accross my land.
		
Click to expand...

Are you on a stewardship scheme? AFAIA these insist that the ground is not cut up, they are anti horse and anti cattle. They cover the cost of (very expensive) wild flower seeding, hedge planting, etc. They dictate when you can and can't mow (not allowed until July), amongst other things. It's worth a lot of money to the LO but there are many rules and restrictions. Nothing to do with the single farm payment at all.


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## Pale Rider (5 October 2012)

Not the first time this sort of thing has happened. The one about the teenager burning the OP's horse with cigarettes took me in, as well as this one.

Nice piece of investigation on this one, well done.


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## CAYLA (5 October 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Just because this woman was wrong does not mean the LO was right.

Yes she sounds like a total idiot, but what if it had been someone else.

Would you think he was right if it had been another girl or woman who had made a genuine mistake.

If someone did that to my daughter while out riding our warmblood I would be bloody furious.

Even I would have felt threatened and I am well used to abusing behaviour at work.  Difference there is there are people around.  

Sorry but I still think his behaviour was very wrong
		
Click to expand...

^^ This, she is obs a fool but so is he, they sound as bad as each other.
Does anyone know how the meeting went?


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## rockysmum (6 October 2012)

CAYLA said:



			^^ This, she is obs a fool but so is he, they sound as bad as each other.
Does anyone know how the meeting went?

Click to expand...

Probably both got locked up for assaulting the police


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## Patterdale (6 October 2012)

In what way is the beaten old man 'just as bad' as the rude, arrogant, abusive and trespassing OP......?

Oh I give up. 
I suppose there are none so blind as those that will not see


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## jeeve (6 October 2012)

Kallibear said:



			By the sound sound of it, it was no 'mistake' and something done knowingly and repetatively. It's just she got caught this time. I know people (often teenage riders) who will ride just about anywhere as long as it's fun, regardless of bad manners or permission. They give everyone else a bad name.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I think you are right, it was not a mistake - she should not have been on the land. 

I have a horse that will rear up and possibly flip over if someone grabs the reins, so I really do understand why this is an issue, I would not like it at all.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (6 October 2012)

Maybe he had his hand on the rein because all the other times he'd seen her (i'm thinking this is probably not a one off offence) she had swore at him and rode off, like she says she does in that other post. 

Lol @ rockeysmums comment of them assaulting the police


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## Bikerchickone (6 October 2012)

I think the 'catch me if you can' part of her post on the other thread makes it completely clear as to why the landowner would have held on to her rein. I'd assume from the cagey way her OP was written that she knew that too!


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## Amaranta (6 October 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Just because this woman was wrong does not mean the LO was right.

Yes she sounds like a total idiot, but what if it had been someone else.

Would you think he was right if it had been another girl or woman who had made a genuine mistake.

If someone did that to my daughter while out riding our warmblood I would be bloody furious.

Even I would have felt threatened and I am well used to abusing behaviour at work.  Difference there is there are people around.  

Sorry but I still think his behaviour was very wrong
		
Click to expand...

I suspect that your daughter

a)  Would not have put herself in this position

and

b) Would not have been rude (which I would imagine this particular Darwin Award nominee was) to the LO


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## Ravenwood (6 October 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			Are you on a stewardship scheme? AFAIA these insist that the ground is not cut up, they are anti horse and anti cattle. They cover the cost of (very expensive) wild flower seeding, hedge planting, etc. They dictate when you can and can't mow (not allowed until July), amongst other things. It's worth a lot of money to the LO but there are many rules and restrictions. Nothing to do with the single farm payment at all.
		
Click to expand...

We are in the higher level stewardship scheme - every inch of the farm has to be grazed in a certain way, hedged, fenced, cut etc etc in a certain way.  Basically to receive any grant money you have to follow an extremely rigid set of rules (which seem to change yearly).  Unfortunately we are massively in debt due to this scheme which is grant aided.  The prices were set about 5 years ago and you get only a percentage towards the works demanded and yet if you dont follow the schedule you are fined a percentage of the grant - go figure!

However this does involve grazing both cattle and sheep to enhance the pastures/wildlife/flora and fauna and absolutely no mention of horses.

That said, I have only skim read this thread but if any ignorant horse rider rode through my pregnant ewes/in calf heifers and upset them where there is no public access, I too would be grabbing hold of their bridle and sending them on their way - politely obviously


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## Equilibrium Ireland (6 October 2012)

Yup, seems OP is a disaster. Good detective work HHO's! 

One of my favorite sayings is "form is temporary, class is permanent". In her case, lack of class is permanent. 

Very sad indeed. I did pro OP's cause against farmer, but never condoned the trespassing. I thought it was 2 separate instances to be honest. I know roaming rights are are in effect over in England and I don't fully understand. But for me my rules are, don't own it, rent it, or have permission, I don't go there. Simple.

Terri


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## fburton (6 October 2012)

Still, it has made for some interesting debate.


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## RunToEarth (6 October 2012)

OWLIE185 said:



			I am a land owner who is in receipt of single area payments etc.  There is absolutely nothing in the conditions that prevent horse riders from riding on wild life field margins and in fact I allow it.  I have never suffered any damage caused by horse riders and in fact I enjoy seeing horse riders riding accross my land.
		
Click to expand...

no they don't affect SFP, but they do impact on ELS/HLS payments as grass margins are intended to be left alone, by everything.


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## joeanne (6 October 2012)

For those that cannot be bothered to read the other thread....

Hessy QUOTES!

"
Loving the replies! 

Mine - feed polos to my lad daily. 
Smack him (NOT beat) if he's naughty. (same as kids really, but I believe that I now banned, so should I be in prison?)
Change rugs looses in field. 
Dismount the wrong way (swing leg over withers)
Trot or canter on people's lawns in front of their houses. (the bit between the wall and the road).
Trespass all over private land (catch me if you can)
Swear (politely) at farmers who tell me to get off their land.
The rest are MUCH too wicked to say in public."
__________________

The rest are FAR too wicked to say in public.........mmmmm....leave you wondering doesn't it.
If I lived in that particular village and she rode across my lawn, I would have likely dragged her off said horse and beaten her with her own whip!

ETA: And just HOW does one swear "politely"?????


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## fburton (6 October 2012)

"Dismount the wrong way (swing leg over withers)"

Disgusting!


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## Equilibrium Ireland (6 October 2012)

Funny thing is why in the world did she post about this incident? If there is one thing we all know about forums it's there is always at least one super sleuth that will pull up your history! I mean come on! 

I almost dreaded the fact I saw that I replied before OP. I was like ok, what was I guilty of doing? My reply was boring as it was truthful. How dare I only brush a couple of times a week. 

Still I did defend the OP only because I thought farmer was out of line but I also felt trespassing is not cool. I'm really against riding on anything belonging to someone else. I have respect for other people's things. I also almost never ride with a stick so I can't see me lacing anyone. But I have been in a situation I couldn't get out of that has stayed with me so if threatened, I'm doing what I have to. But having said that I most certainly do not look for trouble nor do I act like a **** towards others. It's not cool.

I hope OP cops on. She deserves what she gets. 

Terri


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## Black_Horse_White (6 October 2012)

I think some took what the OP had said in face value. Had we known the full story then our replies would have been very different. I did not agree with her trespassing, but I did not agree with what the farmer had done either. Unfortunately that's forums for you, people are given the benefit of the doubt. I know think she has got off lightly, and should be grateful to the LO and should be very apologetic.


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## Sukistokes2 (6 October 2012)

He has assaulted you to, however it goes I wish you well, press charges to, he could have been trying to over power you and pull you of you horse and do anything, you defended your self


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## Penny Less (6 October 2012)

Er have you read the whole thread ?


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## MochaDun (6 October 2012)

Well done HHO CSI...I do like to see a case nicely wrapped up


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## Indy (6 October 2012)

Its a good job when he grabbed the rein her horse didn't go up and over on her otherwise he might have ended up with an air ambulance on his field too.


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## Indy (6 October 2012)

Bums, has there been developments, I only got to page 6 before posting it takes ages on a phone


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## guido16 (6 October 2012)

Could somebody summarise please, can't be arsed reading 60 pages!!!


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## JennBags (6 October 2012)

Guido, the op has a reputation for riding on people's land, grass verges, etc etc, & appears to be proud of this; she has also admitted that she swears at anyone who catches her but continues to do it because she wants to. 

The LO that she whipped is known to be a nice & reasonable man, who is old enough to be a grandfather.


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## Jesstickle (6 October 2012)

joelb said:



			Interesting post here from OP.....some of you have been had.  Sympathies to LO poor chap. 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=10281535#post10281535

Click to expand...

Those who want the updated version, just check out the link above


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## PolarSkye (6 October 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I was brought up to know that if you trespass you get chased by pissed off farmers 

Click to expand...

Blimey this thread has taken some reading . . . but this is, IMHO, the most sensible thing written on it.

P


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## guido16 (6 October 2012)

JennBags said:



			Guido, the op has a reputation for riding on people's land, grass verges, etc etc, & appears to be proud of this; she has also admitted that she swears at anyone who catches her but continues to do it because she wants to. 

The LO that she whipped is known to be a nice & reasonable man, who is old enough to be a grandfather.
		
Click to expand...

JB , thanks


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## Camel (6 October 2012)

Originally Posted by joelb  
Interesting post here from OP.....some of you have been had. Sympathies to LO poor chap. 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forum...5#post10281535 

That is sooo funny - OP you've been OWNED PMSL - what a plonker


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## Orson Cart (6 October 2012)

OH Hessy. You silly girl. You have most definitely been had. Bl**dy hilarious!

FWIW, hitting anyone for any reason is unjustifiable in my book. But you sound like a real *delight*

Glad you don't live in my village.


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## JennBags (6 October 2012)

I'm glad she doesn't live in my county


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## cronkmooar (6 October 2012)

joeanne said:



			ETA: And just HOW does one swear "politely"?????
		
Click to expand...

Feck Orrfff


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## Hedgewitch13 (6 October 2012)

Cronkmooar you forgot 'please'


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## cronkmooar (6 October 2012)

Hedgewitch13 said:



			Cronkmooar you forgot 'please' 

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A fair point,well put


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## combat_claire (7 October 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			I have seen people combining at night, they are worse than travellers, out there with their John Deere coveralls, and their wellies bought from a CountryStore,  headlamps set to "dazzle", I believe they have GPS and in-cab radio as standard.
		
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The motto of our local young farmers is 'if the moisture is right, we'll drill all night' - well I assume they were meaning this in an agricultural sense...


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## Jesstickle (7 October 2012)

combat_claire said:



			The motto of our local young farmers is 'if the moisture is right, we'll drill all night' - well I assume they were meaning this in an agricultural sense...
		
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Well, knowing OUR young farmers I highly doubt they do


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## Hackie (7 October 2012)

jesstickle said:



			Those who want the updated version, just check out the link above 

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OMG - thanks for the update!

As someone who took her word for it, and supported her, I am mortified!!!


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## Honey08 (7 October 2012)

ladyt25 said:



			But IF the land or bridleways are not clearly marked then sometimes it is very hard to tell if you have strayed from a designated right of way. There are numerous bridleways where I live that are not all signed - or at least not from both ends! Some are because old signs have fallen, others just never had signs but are noted on maps as bridleways. It isn't always clear cut and therefore could be quite easy to trespass withou knowing it.
		
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Thats where a map comes in!!!




rockysmum said:



			Just because this woman was wrong does not mean the LO was right.

Yes she sounds like a total idiot, but what if it had been someone else.

Would you think he was right if it had been another girl or woman who had made a genuine mistake.

If someone did that to my daughter while out riding our warmblood I would be bloody furious.

Even I would have felt threatened and I am well used to abusing behaviour at work.  Difference there is there are people around.  

Sorry but I still think his behaviour was very wrong
		
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Don't you think it would be completely strange for someone to just grab a horse and get aggressive just like that??  Even without the whole story, it was obvious that there was more to it.  We used to have a man walk his dog around/across our hayfield regularly, despite us telling him he was off the path etc.  He used to arrogantly ignore me, quoting "right to roam".  One day I got really fed up and asked where he lived, so I could come for a "right to roam" through his flowerbeds.  He refused to give me his details, and I got hold of his dog and took it away!  Finally he apologised and said he would look up right to roam.  I let the dog go.  To be fair, he looked it up, came and apologised, and we actually get on very well now.  My point is, for me to get to the stage where I grabbed his dog took a lot of ignoring and winding up, which I suspected had happened in this case too.





Equilibrium Ireland said:



			Funny thing is why in the world did she post about this incident? If there is one thing we all know about forums it's there is always at least one super sleuth that will pull up your history! I mean come on! 

*Because she is probably an arrogant idiot who can only see things from her own side..*


Terri
		
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Quite a read this thread!


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## Bojingles (7 October 2012)

A few years ago I was hacking out of our yard on a private track and out of nowhere 2 loose dogs appeared. My mare spooked and I was totally unprepared and came out the side door onto nice soft mud. The owners came rushing over, very concerned. 

But I was shocked and a bit peed off and somehow managed to shriek, in a comedy posh voice that I had no idea I possessed, "This is NOT a f**ing footpath!" and flounced off. To this day I regret being such a rude idiot and am mortified. I must've looked and sounded a complete tit.


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## Maesfen (7 October 2012)

JennBags said:



			I'm glad she doesn't live in my county  

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So say all of us!


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## dressagelove (7 October 2012)

OP deserves everything she gets then. Disgusting behaviour, deliberately trespassing and swearing at landowners. Absolutely disgusting. Hope Karma catches up with them.


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## Carefreegirl (7 October 2012)

PlanetHacking said:



			A few years ago I was hacking out of our yard on a private track and out of nowhere 2 loose dogs appeared. My mare spooked and I was totally unprepared and came out the side door onto nice soft mud. The owners came rushing over, very concerned. 

But I was shocked and a bit peed off and somehow managed to shriek, in a comedy posh voice that I had no idea I possessed, "This is NOT a f**ing footpath!" and flounced off. To this day I regret being such a rude idiot and am mortified. I must've looked and sounded a complete tit.
		
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 Quality


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## smellsofhorse (7 October 2012)

the link doesn't work!

So what's the latest?

I commented at the very beginning so am not up to date!


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## Jesstickle (7 October 2012)

blucanoo1990 said:



			the link doesn't work!

So what's the latest?

I commented at the very beginning so am not up to date!
		
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http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=10281535#post10281535

This one worked for me, hopefully will for you too


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## rhino (7 October 2012)

blucanoo1990 said:



			the link doesn't work!

So what's the latest?

I commented at the very beginning so am not up to date!
		
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A previous thread, about 'fessing up to all the bad things you do

OP's:



hessy12 said:



			Loving the replies! 

Mine - feed polos to my lad daily. 
Smack him (NOT beat) if he's naughty. (same as kids really, but I believe that I now banned, so should I be in prison?)
Change rugs looses in field. 
Dismount the wrong way (swing leg over withers)
Trot or canter on people's lawns in front of their houses. (the bit between the wall and the road).
Trespass all over private land (catch me if you can)
Swear (politely) at farmers who tell me to get off their land.
The rest are MUCH too wicked to say in public.
		
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## Equilibrium Ireland (7 October 2012)

Planet Hacking, good one!

I always love when I accidentally get caught out by my mouth before my brain can catch up! It happens to all of us but it's not a pattern. OP, has a history of being plain rude so it seems.

Terri


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## Bikerchickone (7 October 2012)

The really annoying thing is that having followed this thread through 16 pages it seems unlikely that we'll find out if she did go and eat humble pie or not!


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## rhino (7 October 2012)

bikerchickone said:



			The really annoying thing is that having followed this thread through 16 pages it seems unlikely that we'll find out if she did go and eat humble pie or not! 

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Shame. Especially considering OP has been on HHO as recently as this afternoon...


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## rockysmum (7 October 2012)

Can you blame her 

I wouldn't come on again either.

Bet she ends up coming back with a new username


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## mightymammoth (8 October 2012)

@ rhino yes but you will spot her a mile off "she can run but she can't hide"


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## smellsofhorse (8 October 2012)

thanks jesstickle 
I will get myself up to date now!


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## patchypony (8 October 2012)

God give it 10 mins and this thread will just descend into personal abuse


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## Lizzie66 (8 October 2012)

Let me get this right !

OP says she was asked by someone in a 4x4 what she was doing on the farm land, she replies "riding". He says she shouldn't be there and could he have her details, she says she is leaving, however instead of leaving she waits for him to get out of his vehicle and grab a rein!
This indicates that some level of verbal altercation was happening between them. She becomes "lady of the manor" and asks him to let go he says not until you give me your details, so she hits him until he has no choice to let go leaving welts on his back.

She thinks he should apologise !

Personal opinion is that the police should charge her with ABH. she has shown no remorse and is arrogant enough to think her actions were justified.

In other posts she says she hunts regularly but she obviously lacks manners and common decency around land owners, if I were her local hunt I would inform her that she is no longer welcome to hunt with them.


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## *hic* (22 October 2012)

So, OP, as you are currently on line, what was the outcome of this one then?


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## Amymay (22 October 2012)

I'm dying to know too.


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## hessy12 (22 October 2012)

both parties apologised and the matter is now closed.


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## Maesfen (22 October 2012)

Me too!


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## Maesfen (22 October 2012)

He apologised to you?  Whatever for?


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## Amymay (22 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			both parties apologised and the matter is now closed.
		
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So come on OP - you can't leave it at that.  This post caused a huge amount of debate.

What exactly was the outcome - what was the process leading up to it?


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## hessy12 (22 October 2012)

Well I went to the meeting and it was unpleasant. Luckily the matter is not being taken any further. I wrote and apologised afterwards at the man's suggestion. Police have signed it off.  
So not much else to say, lesson learnt but he should NOT have pulled my horse's reins and freaked him out so badly, and I should NOT have been sarcastic to him.  Nor reacted the way I did.


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## Amymay (22 October 2012)

Was this a mediation meeting or a police one?


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## Bikerchickone (22 October 2012)

Crikey, I'd say you got off very lightly there OP! If that'd been any of the landowners around our yard you'd have been prosecuted for ABH! He must've been one of the nicer ones. 

Glad it's over and done with and really hope you don't continue to ride on other people's land and front gardens anymore.


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## StoptheCavalry (22 October 2012)

While I completely disagree with trespassing or riding on peoples gardens a couple of months ago me and a friend were riding down an extremely quiet and narrow lane (one car at a time) lane when a car came towards us going around 30 miles an hour, my friend and I quickly pulled our horses over onto a stretch of grass (between a hedge and the road) to give both our horses a little more room from the speeding car. The car came screeching to a halt behind us where a woman got out of the car and started to scream at us for walking over her lawn and that "she doesnt mow it for a joke!!" by this point we were both off the grass and back on the road, I turned and said that we wouldnt have been on the grass if she had been going a little slower, the car would have been able to pass us SLOWLY while we stayed on the road. In this instance she was completely out of order and continued to shout at us as we carried on down the lane.

To be honest I think she is a little insane and I definitely wont be riding over her grass again.... she doesnt mow it for a joke you know!!!


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## MerrySherryRider (22 October 2012)

I hope you don't do it again. The whole incident must have been awful for the poor man. He sounds like a decent chap to have agreed to come along for the meeting instead of pressing charges.
 Was your apology done at the meeting or was it a reluctant letter sent afterwards to keep you out of trouble ?

It may be your writing style, but quite honestly, you do not seem contrite as you are still aportioning blame to him, despite your assault on the old chap.


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## NeverSayNever (22 October 2012)

Well done OP for at least coming back on here to explain the outcome, there doesnt appear to be anymore to say. Faults on both sides - both sides apologised. Sounds like its done and dusted to me.


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## Queenbee (22 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			Well I went to the meeting and it was unpleasant. Luckily the matter is not being taken any further. I wrote and apologised afterwards at the man's suggestion. Police have signed it off.  
So not much else to say, lesson learnt but he should NOT have pulled my horse's reins and freaked him out so badly, and I should NOT have been sarcastic to him.  Nor reacted the way I did.
		
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Hessy I would just like to say the following, from the link to your other posts, you seem rude, inconsiderate, and were it me who caught you on my land I would have been angry and wanted to take it further.  I wholeheartedly agree that no one as the right to grab your horses reins, risk a dangerous situation essentially trapping you.  I would hazzard a guess that there is no one on here that really thinks that behaviour is acceptable, and regardless of how angry he was at your tresspassing, I can honestly say I would have hit him with my crop too, and I would have felt threatened.  Old man, old enough to be a grandfather or not, if he really did do this, it is shocking behaviour, as was yours and your trespassing in the first place.  It is nice though, to see that you have felt able to come on here and admit that you were in the wrong, and I hope you do not trespass again in the future, this situation could so easily have been prevented.  Furthermore, if in the future you ever find yourself somewhere you shouldn't be, I suggest you fall over yourself to apologise, who knows, if you actually display a bit of respect and decency they may let you ride on their land willingly.


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## Honey08 (22 October 2012)

I think that it is good of her to come back on here  and give a report.  Takes balls really, and she has had everything said to her already on this thread..  I think the "lucky that it was not taken further" says most about what happened!


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## CBFan (22 October 2012)

Emilynuttall said:



			While I completely disagree with trespassing or riding on peoples gardens a couple of months ago me and a friend were riding down an extremely quiet and narrow lane (one car at a time) lane when a car came towards us going around 30 miles an hour, my friend and I quickly pulled our horses over onto a stretch of grass (between a hedge and the road) to give both our horses a little more room from the speeding car. The car came screeching to a halt behind us where a woman got out of the car and started to scream at us for walking over her lawn and that "she doesnt mow it for a joke!!" by this point we were both off the grass and back on the road, I turned and said that we wouldnt have been on the grass if she had been going a little slower, the car would have been able to pass us SLOWLY while we stayed on the road. In this instance she was completely out of order and continued to shout at us as we carried on down the lane.

To be honest I think she is a little insane and I definitely wont be riding over her grass again.... she doesnt mow it for a joke you know!!!
		
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You may want to double check this but I had a similar thing many moons ago with the mad (mad because he's a nutter, not because he mows the verge BTW) guy over the road from where I live who mows the verge out the front of his house and told us off for riding on 'his lawn'... when in fact the first 3 metres of any verge are council owned... it may or may not be the case but just because she chooses to mow it, doesn't make it 'hers'!


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## Suechoccy (22 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			Well I went to the meeting and it was unpleasant. Luckily the matter is not being taken any further. I wrote and apologised afterwards at the man's suggestion. Police have signed it off.  
So not much else to say, lesson learnt but he should NOT have pulled my horse's reins and freaked him out so badly, and I should NOT have been sarcastic to him.  Nor reacted the way I did.
		
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That's a very good outcome. Lessons learnt on both sides. 

Mediation is excellent in many circumstances, work or personal life.  It's often initially unpleasant because each side will begin with their highly-emotionally-charged, entrenched viewpoints, which have to be released through the mediation process before the calming-down, liaison, discussion and working around to a solution can take place.  Well done you and the landowner for both having the balls to sit down and work through this!


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## indie999 (22 October 2012)

Honey08 said:



			I think that it is good of her to come back on here  and give a report.  Takes balls really, and she has had everything said to her already on this thread..  I think the "lucky that it was not taken further" says most about what happened!
		
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Spot on. Absolutely sums it up.


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## StoptheCavalry (22 October 2012)

CBFan said:



			You may want to double check this but I had a similar thing many moons ago with the mad (mad because he's a nutter, not because he mows the verge BTW) guy over the road from where I live who mows the verge out the front of his house and told us off for riding on 'his lawn'... when in fact the first 3 metres of any verge are council owned... it may or may not be the case but just because she chooses to mow it, doesn't make it 'hers'!
		
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Yes my YO told me this when we got back after laughing like idiots about it the whole way home. Again not exactly sure how true it is, either way Ill be staying off it, dont want to deliverately upset people especially when she obviously takes her lawn mowing very seriously.

Incidentally it wasnt the lawn mowing i thought was mad, it was more the shouting down the road after us and nearly running off the road that lead me to the mad conclusion


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## jrp204 (22 October 2012)

CBFan said:



			You may want to double check this but I had a similar thing many moons ago with the mad (mad because he's a nutter, not because he mows the verge BTW) guy over the road from where I live who mows the verge out the front of his house and told us off for riding on 'his lawn'... when in fact the first 3 metres of any verge are council owned... it may or may not be the case but just because she chooses to mow it, doesn't make it 'hers'!
		
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This gives a fairly good idea what is allowed. http://www.norfolk.gov.uk/travel_and_transport/roads/ncc027433


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