# Low Hand Epidemic



## cptrayes (17 September 2013)

What's going on with what appears to be an epidemic of riders with their hands either side of the horse's wither and little or no elbow bend?

Are people being trained to ride this way now?


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## Dusty85 (17 September 2013)

Lol! Not sure.... 
I was always taught to place my hands no wider than the neck, and to carry a riding crop across both of my thumbs or imagine carrying a yea tray! Lol x


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## xloopylozzax (17 September 2013)

Yes they are. Sick of hearing push your hands towards the neck strap. It's crap. Soft elbows, open shoulders, carry your hands. 

All these riders have heels jammed down, sticky out knees and straight arms and hunched over shoulders. Tipped forwards and no use of their seat

I've actually stopped worrying about it now and don't even think about it in general (unless on the net!)


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## Orangehorse (17 September 2013)

I noticed the straight arms/low hands thing in a recent Horse and Hound picture from a dressage competition.  Odd, I thought.  If your elbows are bent you can keep your hands still and soft.

People are actually being TAUGHT this?  My instructor used to yell at people "elbows."


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## cobwithattitude (17 September 2013)

excellent discussion involving 'low hands' amongst others on BD forum if you are a member.


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## FfionWinnie (17 September 2013)

I thought this was going to be about folk on small horses, that's how paranoid I am. However, I have high hands they are just lower to the ground cos the horse is a midget


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## LEC (17 September 2013)

Maybe its a retrospective fashion from the early 90s as pretty sure this is how I rode at PC!


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## YasandCrystal (17 September 2013)

It's sadly just this obsession that the horse is 'going in an outline' so the rider tries to yank the head and neck down. It's ridiculous and looks ridiculous and the number of dealers riders that do it is laughable, picture after picture.


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## springtime1331 (17 September 2013)

I think that it is a combination of outline obsessing and also the impact of back protector culture. I used to sit nicely and not hunch and ip forward but have found that wearing a back protector (Rodney Powell in my case) for many years bringing on a sharp youngster has left me struggling with tipping forwards/ hunched shoulders and straight arms. Just my theory anyway.


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## Carefreegirl (17 September 2013)

You can always tell the pupils of one local instructor as not only do they have low hands - they also 'saw' said hands side to side


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## ihatework (17 September 2013)

I don't necessarily think it's a new thing. Year on year you have new/novice riders wanting to learn how to get a horse 'on the bit'. People don't set out to ride badly, they just make judgement errors along the way.


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## Pasha (17 September 2013)

Ugh just been looking at pics of me and my horse and others that I ride versus me on my old horse 4+ years ago and my position and hands have got progressively worse!!! It is not for lack of instruction and I remember about a year ago being told to lower my hands as they were too high by a very well respected trainer who carries her hands beautifully herself so I just don't understand it  Pictures dont lie though!

I am actually glad i've had an enforced long break due to my horses injury and fully intend to beg old trainer to come back and teach us next year when we are back up and running again!


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## webble (17 September 2013)

YasandCrystal said:



			It's sadly just this obsession that the horse is 'going in an outline' so the rider tries to yank the head and neck down. It's ridiculous and looks ridiculous and the number of dealers riders that do it is laughable, picture after picture.
		
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Agree with this. You see a LOT of for sale ads with hunched over riders in the chair position with low hands and straight elbows - very odd

I must admit when pony does her giraffe impression and I want her to lower her head I automtically lower mine


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## MerrySherryRider (17 September 2013)

Seems to be one of two extremes, low hands or high hands. High hands seems to be an attempt to replicate the style used by riders of grand prix horses. Major difference is that these horses have the muscle and elevation that lifts the horse up. 
Holding hands level with the chest just isn't going to magically give your horse the strength to meet you there. 

Why did no one worry about 'on-the-bit' years ago ? I recall being encouraged to get my pony going forwards and to have quiet hands, but twiddling and sawing wasn't mentioned.


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## Goldenstar (17 September 2013)

I hate the low hands held far apart thing , not saying there are not times when you need an opening hand but you have to be working towards the correct contact .
Not sure how a rider ever learns to soften and use the elbow properly with their arms straight and I think OP is correct you do see it a lot .


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## Cortez (17 September 2013)

"hands wide-and-low" is being taught to many, many people nowadays. No idea why since it doesn't achieve anything other than stiff, hunched riders and annoyed horses. Silly and a bit dim, to say the least.


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## TarrSteps (17 September 2013)

Maybe it's why single jointed snaffles have become the devil's instruments now?  The argument that they poke the roof of the mouth if the hand is lower than the mouth always makes me wonder a little - except in very specific circumstances when the horse is chucking itself around anyway, how does that happen?


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## kez1001 (17 September 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Maybe it's why single jointed snaffles have become the devil's instruments now?  The argument that they poke the roof of the mouth if the hand is lower than the mouth always makes me wonder a little - except in very specific circumstances when the horse is chucking itself around anyway, how does that happen?
		
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This^^^^

I hate when people make this sweeping statement about my single jointed fulmer that I jump my horse in! I'd have to pull my hands to my knees to have this effect!


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## sarahann1 (17 September 2013)

I had lessons from a dressage instructor who teaches this only as a training aid to be used sparingly, certainly not to ride like that all the time.


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## spookypony (17 September 2013)

I was never taught this, but caught myself doing it a few years ago! My instructor told me a story of how he had done similar, until an instructor asked him, "Is it working?", to which the answer was, "No!", so he stopped doing it. To get me to break the habit of wide hands, he actually gave me a loop of thin string to hold over my wrists: it would break easily if I really needed to move my arms about for some reason, but would warn me if they started drifting. I used it a few times, and I _think_ this silly habit is broken!


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## dibbin (17 September 2013)

My hands are appalling. But I know they are, and I ride round saying to myself "hands upright in front and carried as a pair, hands upright in front and carried as a pair ..."


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## Pigeon (17 September 2013)

Yes!! I've been wondering about this!!

I think it's about lack of core strength and again outline obsessing. (I'll admit I've given in to both at times!)


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## SO1 (17 September 2013)

My hands and arms are dreadful and I do try hard but for some reason it is taking a long time to improve despite my instructor telling me in every lesson to lift my hands, bend my elbows and not fix them. The only time she tells me it is ok to lower the hands is for free rein on a long walk.


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## Caol Ila (17 September 2013)

Yes, people are taught it.  I don't know why.  But when I am saying to someone, "bend your elbows and keep your hands closer together," and they say, "But I was told by (other instructor/last instructor/YO) to keep my hands low and wide," I want to a cry a little bit.


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## its_noodles (17 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			What's going on with what appears to be an epidemic of riders with their hands either side of the horse's wither and little or no elbow bend?

Are people being trained to ride this way now?
		
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yep, that would be me....


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## skint1 (17 September 2013)

There was an instructor who used to come to our yard who did the low hands thing, it was weird how people went for it and then just as suddenly went off of it


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## SO1 (17 September 2013)

Although my current instructor is always teling me to raise my hands bend elbow etc she is a classical dressage trainer and quite old school which suits me well and the results I get are good.

However I think some of the younger  generation of instructors like the low and wide hand position I was shown this about 15 years ago before I had my current instructor, by a young dressage rider who must only have been about 20 at the time and he said it was a short cut to getting an outline. That might be the case but my instructor that I have at the moment said by doing this you fix the horses head and encourage it to go on the forehand and not work from behind that than working in a soft outline.



Caol Ila said:



			Yes, people are taught it.  I don't know why.  But when I am saying to someone, "bend your elbows and keep your hands closer together," and they say, "But I was told by (other instructor/last instructor/YO) to keep my hands low and wide," I want to a cry a little bit.
		
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## cptrayes (18 September 2013)

its_noodles said:



			yep, that would be me....


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Are you happy with riding that way?

It seems to me that it ruins the free movement of the elbow which is absolutely essential to an instantaneous, soft response to the horse's mouth. All the subtelty of your hands is surely lost, and you are using your hands like side reins?


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## xloopylozzax (18 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Are you happy with riding that way?

It seems to me that it ruins the free movement of the elbow which is absolutely essential to an instantaneous, soft response to the horse's mouth. All the subtelty of your hands is surely lost, and you are using your hands like side reins?
		
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That's exactly why it's a quick fix- if you have the strength you can pin them into a contact and fool well "fools" into thinking it is working correctly. Classic dealer trick! Lots of leg/stick, fixed hands and funnel them into it...


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## Clava (18 September 2013)

I remember having dressage lessons in the late 70s early 80s and being taught to lower my hands, it stuck with me but I gave up dressage and was just hacking, when I restarted lessons 6 years ago it was a revelation to carry my hands and instantly the horse improved, but I still struggle to carry them high enough but I'm constantly working on it.


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## castella (18 September 2013)

I think there are uses for low wide hands though, when I'm schooling properly and want him up into the contact I hold my hands up, but when I reward him after doing something well buy letting him stretch down I lower and open my hands wide and he really enjoys stretching his nose to the floor and relaxing ?


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## cptrayes (18 September 2013)

castella said:



			I think there are uses for low wide hands though, when I'm schooling properly and want him up into the contact I hold my hands up, but when I reward him after doing something well buy letting him stretch down I lower and open my hands wide and he really enjoys stretching his nose to the floor and relaxing ? 

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This isn't the same thing. I do that too, it gets the horse to stretch down and relax. What I am seeing everywhere is riders with one hand either side of the wither and usually touching the horse. It looks ugly to me and is biomechanically unsound because it removes the shock absorber of a swinging elbow joint.


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## castella (18 September 2013)

Aaaah ok, I'll shut up now then lol !


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## Orangehorse (18 September 2013)

I was given a very full explanation and demonstration of the reasons why the elbows should be bent to carry the arms and hands by one (classically trained) instructor and I could see the difference for myself when I was watching my daughter ride my horse.  The minute she got everything right the horse completely changed, for the better!


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## Caol Ila (18 September 2013)

I try to demonstrate why bent elbows are a good thing by holding one end of the reins, pretending I am a rider, while the student holds the other and pretends to be a horse.  I ask them to move the reins back and forth, the way a horse might nod its head as it walks or canters.  I have my elbows stiff at first and the student finds it difficult to move the reins.  Then I bend my elbows and they find it a lot nicer.  I tell them that if your elbows are straight and braced, it is physically impossible to have a soft, following contact.  

I have one who gets utterly stressed and anxious because she hears this from me and then hears "lower your hands" from other people.  Gah!


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## GlamourPuss86 (18 September 2013)

I tend to ride with little bend in my elbow as my hands are quite low. Not down the side of the neck by any means! 

Mind you I haven't had a lesson in years and always tend to ride horses who snatch, so end up setting my arms and shoulders.

Time to book some lessons again and get my upper back fixed!


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## xloopylozzax (18 September 2013)

I've had a "discussion" with a couple of instructors (bhs qualified the lot!) about this. They just didn't understand what I was saying and insisted I shoved my hands out and down. Needless to say I don't let them teach me anymore...
These same horses snatch, run through the contact and go like giraffes, and they wonder why. I rode one of the new ones from my seat and she went nicely- relaxed her neck and back and softened; not in an outline but enough to start with. 
 The rest of them that had been there longer were kick pull lame donkeys 

Incidentally what's the trend for having the bit fitted really high in the mouth? A couple of creases was what I was taught, but these are almost grinning, struggling to pull the bridle over the ears tight.
And hoiking the girth right up straight away- no wonder it bites you when you go to tack up!


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## Bernster (18 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			This isn't the same thing. I do that too, it gets the horse to stretch down and relax. What I am seeing everywhere is riders with one hand either side of the wither and usually touching the horse. It looks ugly to me and is biomechanically unsound because it removes the shock absorber of a swinging elbow joint.
		
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Ah, that clears up what I was just thinking about.  I'm currently being told to keep my reins low and wide as we're trying to encourage long and low stretchiness.  But with soft elbows and hands, and working on my seat, so sounds like we are on the right track.


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## YasandCrystal (18 September 2013)

Orangehorse said:



			I was given a very full explanation and demonstration of the reasons why the elbows should be bent to carry the arms and hands by one (classically trained) instructor and I could see the difference for myself when I was watching my daughter ride my horse.  The minute she got everything right the horse completely changed, for the better!
		
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Ditto this at a recent Charles de Kunffy clinic I witnessed rider after rider entering and exiting with a much improved moving horse, all through their leg and hand position changes brought about by subtle but straight to the problem exercises. The man is a legend.


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## cptrayes (18 September 2013)

xloopylozzax said:



			I've had a "discussion" with a couple of instructors (bhs qualified the lot!) about this. They just didn't understand what I was saying and insisted I shoved my hands out and down. Needless to say I don't let them teach me anymore...
These same horses snatch, run through the contact and go like giraffes, and they wonder why. I rode one of the new ones from my seat and she went nicely- relaxed her neck and back and softened; not in an outline but enough to start with. 
 The rest of them that had been there longer were kick pull lame donkeys 

Incidentally what's the trend for having the bit fitted really high in the mouth? A couple of creases was what I was taught, but these are almost grinning, struggling to pull the bridle over the ears tight.
And hoiking the girth right up straight away- no wonder it bites you when you go to tack up!
		
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Oh yes, the grinning bit fit too, I hate that.

And short short dressage births. I keep laughing about people getting such great results from the extortionately expensive Fairfax girth.  I'm betting the key fact is the instruction to buy a larger size than usual so that the buckles are close to the bottom of the flap - removing them from the elbow, and also removing the pinch between two bare girth straps on a ticklish bit of the horse.


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## cptrayes (18 September 2013)

Bernster said:



			Ah, that clears up what I was just thinking about.  I'm currently being told to keep my reins low and wide as we're trying to encourage long and low stretchiness.  But with soft elbows and hands, and working on my seat, so sounds like we are on the right track.
		
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I call it the trampoline trot, and I've been doing it a lot recently due to a horse with kissing spines. I have my hands below the wither but nowhere near touching the horse, and with a soft squeezy contact most horses will readily drop into a low but rounded headcarriage with a very springy back. It's a great way to start and end a session.


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## blackhor2e (18 September 2013)

I think looking at the bigger picture the epidemic of see sawing hands is much worst for a horse than holding your hands to low.


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## Cortez (18 September 2013)

b1ackhorse said:



			I think looking at the bigger picture the epidemic of see sawing hands is much worst for a horse than holding your hands to low.
		
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I don't think it's worse; I think that both are appalling and indicative of just plain ignorant teaching. Who on earth is training people to teach this way? This kind of "contact" for want of a better word will NEVER produce a horse which understands and works with the rider's hand, not in a million years. Perhaps this explains why so many riders never progress, and horses look so unhappy?


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## cptrayes (18 September 2013)

b1ackhorse said:



			I think looking at the bigger picture the epidemic of see sawing hands is much worst for a horse than holding your hands to low.
		
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Six of one and half a dozen of the other for me. Fixed communicative hands versus wavering overcommunicative hands. Your avatar is interesting


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## onemoretime (18 September 2013)

YasandCrystal said:



			It's sadly just this obsession that the horse is 'going in an outline' so the rider tries to yank the head and neck down. It's ridiculous and looks ridiculous and the number of dealers riders that do it is laughable, picture after picture.
		
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Absolutely agree Yasandcrystal.  It seems to be a trend to crank the horses head in and in doing so creates a false outline.  I hate to see it particularly on 4 and 5 year olds in dealers yards.  A young horses neck is not strong enough to hold itself up at elementary level which is where most of them are placed.  I also wonder if this is sometimes the cause of kissing spine as it pulls the whole top line in instead of long and low and lots of stretching to build up the top line muscles which takes time of course.  People want the end result at the beginning.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Six of one and half a dozen of the other for me. Fixed communicative hands versus wavering overcommunicative hands. Your avatar is interesting 

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that comes across as incredibly rude! i doubt every picture of you is perfect CPT, and tbh the big pic of that avatar is lovely, relaxed, soft in back and neck and clear 3 beat canter (as much as i can tell from the small pic). 
perhaps we should all post some vids of us riding and then we would be better placed to judge who actually know what they are talking about, i always like to see the product of peoples training methods, especially when they are so hyper critical of others.

regarding low hands, sustained low hands are not ideal, but as a short term thing, or even just as a moment in time, i dont think its the end of the world.

just as one example, i teach a really keen 12yo girl whose pony is ex JA jumper, originally went everywhere sideways, bouncing, ears in her eyes, snatching and leaping, wouldnt walk, would either piaffe, passage, jog sideways, canter on the spot or flat out gallop doing demented changes.
he is pretty much out of that as a defualt now, can w/t/c fairly steadily and has started some shoulder in/half pass work in walk and trot.
But, when he gets above the bit (and i mean vertical neck, not just a bit hollow) and tries to start leaping, we take the hand a little lower and wider to encourage him to drop down deep and relax his topline. As soon as he settles he then allows you to put your leg on and ride the neck out again.

there is no way that ignoring his head/neck/mouth and trying to ride him forward to a contact would have any effect at all once he's on one................if however i can get him a bit deeper, the adrenalin rush leaves him and i can gently ride forward and take the neck out.

granted he's very extreme in his reaction, but the security of a slightly lowered hand (akin to side reins), reminds him he can take the contact down and that vertical ping pong neck is not the only way to go.

i accept that *asking* the neck down from the front does not affect the back or hind leg until i can get my leg on him, but its absolutely impossible to get the hind leg first when the front end is so extremely hysterical!

he's completely changed shape in the last 2 years, from huge underneck, bulging shoulders and no butt, to a nice round topline, no under neck muscle and a big chunky bum. he looks even, instead of all up front and no muscle behind.

just an eg of how it isnt always a sin.


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## Daisy1905 (18 September 2013)

Carefreegirl said:



			You can always tell the pupils of one local instructor as not only do they have low hands - they also 'saw' said hands side to side 

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But I thought that's how you get the horse to keep its head down...


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## Bernster (18 September 2013)

Daisy1905 said:



			But I thought that's how you get the horse to keep its head down... 

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This might be better put onto a new thread, but I genuinely struggle with this and I admit that I probably default into see-saw hands.  But it's because I'm not always clear what people mean, when they are asking you to move the bit in the horse's mouth e.g. having a conversation with the reins and other similar expressions.

I *think* they mean pulsing, squeezing the reins, or opening and closing the fingers, but not pulling back with the hands or elbows.  I have asked one instructor and she showed me what she meant, but I still struggle to get this right.

If someone out there has a good way to explain, I'd love to hear it please!


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## cptrayes (18 September 2013)

No one said it was always a sin Princess, and your example is a good one of when it clearly isn't.

What I am talking about is an epidemic of riders at Prelim riding the entire test with straight elbows and hands on either side of the horse's wither.

Regarding my own riding, I have never claimed to be perfect or anywhere near it and I do not put my own riding or my horses performance up as examples of good, or bad, riding on this forum.  

On the other hand I have nothing to be ashamed of either. I was not lucky enough to be taught by an instructor like you, I was taught to ride out on half hour hacks, all my Dad could afford when I was fifteen. The instruction I was given was that I should always be able to see an inch of toe in front of my knee. Chair seat or what!!

It's taken me decades to learn to ride even as well as I do, and that includes knowing that it's not right to ride an entire dressage test with my arms as side reins.

I'm not sure why you chose to get so personal but I hope that explains things a little for you?


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## *hic* (18 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			No one said it was always a sin Princess, and your example is a good one of when it clearly isn't.

What I am talking about is an epidemic of riders at Prelim riding the entire test with straight elbows and hands on either side of the horse's wither.

Regarding my own riding, I have never claimed to be perfect or anywhere near it and I do not put my own riding or my horses performance up as examples of good, or bad, riding on this forum.  

On the other hand I have nothing to be ashamed of either. I was not lucky enough to be taught by an instructor like you, I was taught to ride out on half hour hacks, all my Dad could afford when I was fifteen. The instruction I was given was that I should always be able to see an inch of toe in front of my knee. Chair seat or what!!

It's taken me decades to learn to ride even as well as I do, and that includes knowing that it's not right to ride an entire dressage test with my arms as side reins.

I'm not sure why you chose to get so personal but I hope that explains things a little for you?
		
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cptrayes, given that your training was limited and you seem to be talking about young riders doing Prelim tests don't you think that they may not have had either any more training than you did as a youngster or the decades that you have had to a) learn that there was a "right" way and b) learn to put it into practice?


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## cptrayes (18 September 2013)

Bernster said:



			This might be better put onto a new thread, but I genuinely struggle with this and I admit that I probably default into see-saw hands.  But it's because I'm not always clear what people mean, when they are asking you to move the bit in the horse's mouth e.g. having a conversation with the reins and other similar expressions.

I *think* they mean pulsing, squeezing the reins, or opening and closing the fingers, but not pulling back with the hands or elbows.  I have asked one instructor and she showed me what she meant, but I still struggle to get this right.

If someone out there has a good way to explain, I'd love to hear it please!
		
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My own way of thinking about it is that my hands should be still _in relation to the horse's mouth_  which means if the head is moving, as it does, then your elbow needs to be able to swing in order to keep your hand 'still'.

Ferdi Eilberg explained the constant movement of the bit in the mouth to me with a very slight 'vibration' of the fingers. He says to do this all the time.   

It's not that simple, of course, because there are times when the horse is moving its head in a way you don't want, when you don't want your hand to follow!

Still, if this was easy I wouldn't still be finding new things to learn after forty years


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## blackhor2e (18 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Six of one and half a dozen of the other for me. Fixed communicative hands versus wavering overcommunicative hands. Your avatar is interesting 

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CP that was mean!! I try my best, no need to stoop to that. Yes, i have low hands in my avatar but I am always trying to improve upon that. Thanks to PrincessSparkle for at least seeing what my avatar was at least trying to convey!


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## cptrayes (18 September 2013)

jemima*askin said:



			cptrayes, given that your training was limited and you seem to be talking about young riders doing Prelim tests don't you think that they may not have had either any more training than you did as a youngster or the decades that you have had to a) learn that there was a "right" way and b) learn to put it into practice?
		
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Yes that occurred to me. 


Which is why my very first question was are they being taught to ride this way. To which the answer appears to be yes.


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## cptrayes (18 September 2013)

b1ackhorse said:



			CP that was mean!! I try my best, no need to stoop to that. Yes, i have low hands in my avatar but I am always trying to improve upon that. Thanks to PrincessSparkle for at least seeing what my avatar was at least trying to convey!
		
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I'm sorry you felt it was mean.

Your avatar and your post combined led me to believe that you thought low hands were correct, hence my response. It was not, of course, offensive if you did believe in low hands, it only becomes insulting if you don't.  

Nice horse


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## Lolo (18 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Yes that occurred to me. 


Which is why my very first question was are they being taught to ride this way. To which the answer appears to be yes.
		
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They are. Al's 19 now, and it wasn't until she started having lessons age 17 with her last instructor that the focus was entirely on her riding and especially her hands. That instructor moved away and Al moved on but her new instructor is cut from the same cloth (literally, lol!) and what Reg is doing matters far less than how Al is riding. Hey presto, Reg (and the others) go hugely better...

But she grooms for a family of young children at comps (aged 6-11) and they all saw with low hands because that's what they've been taught by a much sought after instructor...


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## its_noodles (18 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Are you happy with riding that way?
		
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course not...
they all started up there and...
worked their way down in the course of the lesson...


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## cptrayes (18 September 2013)

its_noodles said:



			course not...
they all started up there and...
worked their way down in the course of the lesson...


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How many hands do you have  ?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I'm sorry you felt it was mean.

Your avatar and your post combined led me to believe that you thought low hands were correct, hence my response. It was not, of course, offensive if you did believe in low hands, it only becomes insulting if you don't.  

Nice horse 

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It's insulting because its snide, you could have simply asked her to clarify further or expand upon the issues of the horse in the avatar.

It would actually be incredibly eye opening to watch us all ride, it was mooted on another forum I belong to and it was interesting that only the very genuinely experienced riders, that has been there and done it ( to varying degrees) took up the challenge......the super critical evangelical bunch suddenly went quiet.......


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## nikkimariet (18 September 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			It's insulting because its snide, you could have simply asked her to clarify further or expand upon the issues of the horse in the avatar.

It would actually be incredibly eye opening to watch us all ride, it was mooted on another forum I belong to and it was interesting that only the very genuinely experienced riders, that has been there and done it ( to varying degrees) took up the challenge......the super critical evangelical bunch suddenly went quiet.......
		
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Me and PS have the opposite problem. I keep my hands closed and set my upper arm, it makes the contact too static/hard. PS has very open hands and takes a very light contact, not always offering a consistent contact. We are both trying to find the middle ground, but hey, horses are a constant learning curve right?

In fact, there are videos of both of us riding on our fb page if anyone cares to take a look.


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## cptrayes (18 September 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			It's insulting because its snide, you could have simply asked her to clarify further or expand upon the issues of the horse in the avatar.

It would actually be incredibly eye opening to watch us all ride, it was mooted on another forum I belong to and it was interesting that only the very genuinely experienced riders, that has been there and done it ( to varying degrees) took up the challenge......the super critical evangelical bunch suddenly went quiet.......
		
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You answer for other posters now Princess?

Plenty of videos of my riding on my blog, since you appear to mean me with your second paragraph too.  Full of flaws and mostly ruined by my stage fright when being judged 

And what is your issue with me here?  Am I not allowed to comment on low hands because I don't ride as well as some other people?  Are you suggesting that only people who ride perfectly themselves can ever spot a problem with other people's riding? Or that only those who ride perfectly are entitled to comment?

Now wouldn't that make for a boring forum


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			You answer for other posters now Princess?

Plenty of videos of my riding on my blog, since you appear to mean me with your second paragraph too.  Full of flaws and mostly ruined by my stage fright when being judged 

And what is your issue with me here?  Am I not allowed to comment on low hands because I don't ride as well as some other people?  Are you suggesting that only people who ride perfectly themselves can ever spot a problem with other people's riding?
		
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Not at all, I just saw another member being picked on with said snide remarks and then refered back to a previous experience on another forum


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## cptrayes (18 September 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Not at all, I just saw another member being picked on with said snide remarks and then refered back to a previous experience on another forum 

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Whew that's a relief. I misread your post as picking on me because I don't ride as well as some other people on the forum and suggesting that I therefore had no right to comment on what I see as bad riding.

I'm so glad I misunderstood you there


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## charlie76 (18 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Whew that's a relief. I misread your post as picking on me because I don't ride as well as some other people on the forum and suggesting that I therefore had no right to comment on what I see as bad riding.

I'm so glad I misunderstood you there 

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Here we go again, uncalled comments on people's riding ability. How in earth can you tell how some one rides from a tiny picture and a snap shot in time?


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## Moomin1 (18 September 2013)

charlie76 said:



			Here we go again, uncalled comments on people's riding ability. How in earth can you tell how some one rides from a tiny picture and a snap shot in time?
		
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I didn't read it that CPTrayes was implying anything derogatory towards her riding?

I think she merely observed low hands, and wondered what that poster's thoughts on the subject matter were.

On the subject, I started riding 24 years ago and was never taught the 'low hand' thing - it was always elbows bent and hands a wither's width apart, and never coming into contact with the horse or saddle.  I can however now, see that low wide hands can be useful in encouraging stretching long and low in certain ways, but if I am correct in thinking what you are meaning CPT is the fixed hands down into 'side rein' position to haul the head in - then I would be horrified to think anybody is getting taught that?!  Seriously, someone please tell me this isn't the case?!! :-O


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## its_noodles (18 September 2013)

charlie76 said:



			Here we go again, uncalled comments on people's riding ability. How in earth can you tell how some one rides from a tiny picture and a snap shot in time?
		
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well, nothing to do with riding ability, but if u zoooooooom in 3,000 times on that tiny picture, u might still see where the hands were...
just a tiny thought...


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## charlie76 (18 September 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			I didn't read it that CPTrayes was implying anything derogatory towards her riding?

I think she merely observed low hands, and wondered what that poster's thoughts on the subject matter were.

On the subject, I started riding 24 years ago and was never taught the 'low hand' thing - it was always elbows bent and hands a wither's width apart, and never coming into contact with the horse or saddle.  I can however now, see that low wide hands can be useful in encouraging stretching long and low in certain ways, but if I am correct in thinking what you are meaning CPT is the fixed hands down into 'side rein' position to haul the head in - then I would be horrified to think anybody is getting taught that?!  Seriously, someone please tell me this isn't the case?!! :-O
		
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I think the ' interesting avatar ' comment was def a dig . As did the owner of said avatar pic


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## Moomin1 (18 September 2013)

charlie76 said:



			I think the ' interesting avatar ' comment was def a dig . As did the owner of said avatar pic
		
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Really?

I would have taken that as 'interesting' as interesting to see the style and interested to see what her thoughts were.

Maybe I am wrong then!


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## cptrayes (18 September 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Seriously, someone please tell me this isn't the case?!! :-O
		
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Unfortunately Moomin, quite a few contributors to the discussion have confirmed that it certainly is being taught, by quite a few trainers.  Which explains. why I'm seeing it everywhere lately.


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## Moomin1 (18 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Unfortunately Moomin, quite a few contributors to the discussion have confirmed that it certainly is being taught, by quite a few trainers.  Which explains. why I'm seeing it everywhere lately.
		
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What, as in the 'low hands hauling the head in', not low hands allowing stretching down into contact?  Seriously?!! That's shocking.  I am actually genuinely taken aback about that. :-(


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## brighthair (18 September 2013)

I drop my hands, and I know I do it! I tip forwards when nervous and my hands come with me, or my hands go down and then I tip (vicious circle)
However they are always soft, I'm not a harsh rider, and the improvement in my position has been vast. But if someone saw me they would say I still drop my hands, which I do, now I'm conscious of it. But this is before and after

1001 things wrong with my position in this...






And now, yes I need more bend in my elbows, but my hands are higher and soft and forward (plus massive lower leg difference)


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## Lolo (18 September 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Really?

I would have taken that as 'interesting' as interesting to see the style and interested to see what her thoughts were.

Maybe I am wrong then! 

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I don't know, having seen many people ripped to shreds for offering unasked for CC (often by the offerer of this 'C'C) I'd imagine the fairly strong rule of the forum where if it's not asked and it's not welfare, don't say it would have been stuck to...

Phrasing that could have been used if there had been a genuine interest in the poster's opinion is "What are your thoughts on this?". Although, the poster had just offered her own thoughts... How odd. 

FWIW, I reckon low, still hands are much kinder on the horse than high, unsteady and grabbing hands using the mouth for stability... If your core strength isn't such that your seat and hands are independent I reckon you're better to not give the horse a reason to not trust the contact...


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## Moomin1 (18 September 2013)

brighthair said:



			I drop my hands, and I know I do it! I tip forwards when nervous and my hands come with me, or my hands go down and then I tip (vicious circle)
However they are always soft, I'm not a harsh rider, and the improvement in my position has been vast. But if someone saw me they would say I still drop my hands, which I do, now I'm conscious of it. But this is before and after

1001 things wrong with my position in this...






And now, yes I need more bend in my elbows, but my hands are higher and soft and forward (plus massive lower leg difference)





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See (I hope you don't mind me saying this), the first pic shows what I would class as the low hands 'hauling' position which I seriously hope isn't being taught, whereas the second pic I think is more of low and wide offering to stretch down position which I don't think is bad at all in most instances.  Looks like a big improvement to me.


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## brighthair (18 September 2013)

Yes, the second photo was stretching down at the end of a lesson. The first photo is on a horse that head snatched and I didn't have lessons for a while. It is nerves that make me tip, but for years people have said sit up, until someone said "pick your hands up!" and then of course you sit up more


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## JFTDWS (18 September 2013)

FWIW, BH, I don't think you're "hauling" your horse's head in to his chest in either of those photos.  Your hand position isn't perfect (neither's mine!) but it's not forced either.


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## Moomin1 (18 September 2013)

JFTD said:



			FWIW, BH, I don't think you're "hauling" your horse's head in to his chest in either of those photos.  Your hand position isn't perfect (neither's mine!) but it's not forced either.
		
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I didn't say she was 'hauling' her horse's head in. I said that I class that hand position as the 'hauling' position.  Straight arms, pinned to the withers in 'side rein' position.


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## cptrayes (18 September 2013)

Lolo said:



			FWIW, I reckon low, still hands are much kinder on the horse than high, unsteady and grabbing hands using the mouth for stability... If your core strength isn't such that your seat and hands are independent I reckon you're better to not give the horse a reason to not trust the contact...
		
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I agree with you. The thread was prompted, though, by seeing rider after rider in affiliated preliminary and novice competitions riding very good horses. These people aren't beginners, they appear to have been taught to obtain a consistent head carriage by pinning their hands to act as side reins.


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## brighthair (18 September 2013)

I think there's two distinct camps here - the people that do it deliberately to pin the horses head in, and the people that either don't/do realise they are doing it and aren't doing it to "improve" an outline


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## cptrayes (18 September 2013)

brighthair said:



			I think there's two distinct camps here - the people that do it deliberately to pin the horses head in, and the people that either don't/do realise they are doing it and aren't doing it to "improve" an outline
		
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True. You look like the latter nd you also look like you've improved a lot , you are much more stable in the second photo, and if your horse had a naturally higher set on neck, you'd have a perfect bend in your elbow to maintain the mouth to elbow unbroken line.


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## JFTDWS (18 September 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			I didn't say she was 'hauling' her horse's head in. I said that I class that hand position as the 'hauling' position.  Straight arms, pinned to the withers in 'side rein' position.
		
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I didn't say you did :rolleyes3:


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## charlie76 (18 September 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			See (I hope you don't mind me saying this), the first pic shows what I would class as the low hands 'hauling' position which I seriously hope isn't being taught, whereas the second pic I think is more of low and wide offering to stretch down position which I don't think is bad at all in most instances.  Looks like a big improvement to me.
		
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in the first picture, yes your hands are too low and wide however you are not having a negative effect on the horse as you have next to no contact. horse  looks to be the type to never work into thr contact over his back and if you were to ride him like pic two he would chuck his head about.


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## brighthair (18 September 2013)

charlie76 said:



			in the first picture, yes your hands are too low and wide however you are not having a negative effect on the horse as you have next to no contact. horse  looks to be the type to never work into thr contact over his back and if you were to ride him like pic two he would chuck his head about.
		
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Very much so - he wouldn't work into the contact, and asking him resulted in violent head chucking
My riding mainly tries to aim on if I can't have a positive effect, at least have no effect!


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## charlie76 (18 September 2013)

so in that case you rode him as well as you could using the position and method he would accept. 
A more amenable ride will allow you to maintain a better contact and improve and change your whole position. 
some times to get the best result the ideal goes out the window, even if its just temporary.


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## Tnavas (18 September 2013)

I used to write for a dressage judge that would get redder and redder as a test went on when riders did their free walk on a long rein, eventually she would splutter out "Wide, low hands DO NOT make a good free walk on a long rein"

People seem to think the lower and wider their hands the lower and longer their horses head and neck will become!


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## soulfull (18 September 2013)

Unfortunately it seems to be being taught by most of the instructors in my area 
Just the same as to keep a horse on the outside track you pull back and hard on the outside rein


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## Pigeon (19 September 2013)

Bernster said:



			This might be better put onto a new thread, but I genuinely struggle with this and I admit that I probably default into see-saw hands.  But it's because I'm not always clear what people mean, when they are asking you to move the bit in the horse's mouth e.g. having a conversation with the reins and other similar expressions.

I *think* they mean pulsing, squeezing the reins, or opening and closing the fingers, but not pulling back with the hands or elbows.  I have asked one instructor and she showed me what she meant, but I still struggle to get this right.

If someone out there has a good way to explain, I'd love to hear it please!
		
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I always thought the aim was to have still hands (but soft, following the movement) and then riding the horse into the contact? And then using half halts (using just the bottom finger on the rein) when needed, but not all the time. 

Again, I've not had lessons in ages and this is just from watching and talking to other people who do well at dressage, so might be wrong!! My main failing is I have too light of a hold on the reins and they get longer and longer, so my hands get closer and closer to my body in order to maintain a contact!!


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## blackhor2e (19 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I'm sorry you felt it was mean.

Your avatar and your post combined led me to believe that you thought low hands were correct, hence my response. It was not, of course, offensive if you did believe in low hands, it only becomes insulting if you don't.  

Nice horse 

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Thank you CP, my perception of your comment was obviously wrong and no offence is taken - believe me I am the first to criticise my own position


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## khalswitz (19 September 2013)

I have been taught recently to lower my hands when jumping my horse. He tends to rush off, and can take a lap of a field to come back as he stick his head right up and tosses the head when I ask him to come back when jumping on grass. However when I sit in, lower my hands and maintain the contact almost with my hands towards my thighs, but with a longer rein, he responds and comes back. He is an exracer so I think having my hands low is just a different way of asking... Either way I'm one who carries my hands too high without enough elbow bend (think Frankenstein lol) when jumping, so I always try to think of lowering my hands.


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## Tnavas (19 September 2013)

Pigeon said:



			I always thought the aim was to have still hands (but soft, following the movement) and then riding the horse into the contact? And then using half halts (using just the bottom finger on the rein) when needed, but not all the time. 

Again, I've not had lessons in ages and this is just from watching and talking to other people who do well at dressage, so might be wrong!! My main failing is I have too light of a hold on the reins and they get longer and longer, so my hands get closer and closer to my body in order to maintain a contact!!
		
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My instructor calls that 'Slippery rein disease' I suffer from that periodically.


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## TheMule (19 September 2013)

Pigeon said:



			I always thought the aim was to have still hands (but soft, following the movement) and then riding the horse into the contact? And then using half halts (using just the bottom finger on the rein) when needed, but not all the time.
		
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Phew, glad someone else doesnt think that wiggling the reins or vibrating the fingers is how to get a horse round. Still contact, leg to hand and half halting to balance. Flexions to improve lateral suppleness and the horse should seek the hand wherever it goes to maintain that constant feel, not back off it because it moves the bit everytime they dare to come slightly in front of the vertical


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## cptrayes (19 September 2013)

b1ackoorse said:



			Thank you CP, my perception of your comment was obviously wrong and no offence is taken - believe me I am the first to criticise my own position 

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Well it was my perception of yours that was wrong first. You are too self critical if your avatars is typical of how your lovely horse goes. I have a soft spot for the dark ones, mine are both nearly black


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## Moomin1 (19 September 2013)

soulfull said:



			Unfortunately it seems to be being taught by most of the instructors in my area 
Just the same as to keep a horse on the outside track you pull back and hard on the outside rein 

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Seriously?  I can't believe what I am reading on this thread. 

I can't even possibly think how pulling on the outside rein is remotely going to help, not even in a 'false' way.  Surely it will just encourage hollowing and falling in through the shoulder?!


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## cptrayes (19 September 2013)

TheMule said:



			Phew, glad someone else doesnt think that wiggling the reins or vibrating the fingers is how to get a horse round. Still contact, leg to hand and half halting to balance. Flexions to improve lateral suppleness and the horse should seek the hand wherever it goes to maintain that constant feel, not back off it because it moves the bit everytime they dare to come slightly in front of the vertical
		
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The vibrating fingers was not explained to me as a way to get the horse round, more as a way to keep the horse from fixing on the contact, almost like a constant conversation between you. It's a very slight vibration, only just above having fixed fingers. It's so difficult to explain in words, I was shown it, which is much easier.


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## YasandCrystal (19 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			The vibrating fingers was not explained to me as a way to get the horse round, more as a way to keep the horse from fixing on the contact, almost like a constant conversation between you. It's a very slight vibration, only just above having fixed fingers. It's so difficult to explain in words, I was shown it, which is much easier.
		
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Charles de Kunffy taught this method also in his clinic - for exactly the reason you state cptrayes - to keep a conversation going.


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## TarrSteps (19 September 2013)

TheMule said:



			Phew, glad someone else doesnt think that wiggling the reins or vibrating the fingers is how to get a horse round. Still contact, leg to hand and half halting to balance. Flexions to improve lateral suppleness and the horse should seek the hand wherever it goes to maintain that constant feel, not back off it because it moves the bit everytime they dare to come slightly in front of the vertical
		
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That. With the addendum of the goal being a straight line from elbow to mouth. This may be momentarily broken for a specific purpose but not as a practice.

The thing is, you can't have a conversation with the horse without this connection.

This thread makes me sad. It's such an amazing feeling to have the rein alive in your hand, it's depressing that people are being taught something that actually takes them further away from being that.


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## nikkimariet (19 September 2013)

TheMule said:



			Phew, glad someone else doesnt think that wiggling the reins or vibrating the fingers is how to get a horse round. Still contact, leg to hand and half halting to balance. Flexions to improve lateral suppleness and the horse should seek the hand wherever it goes to maintain that constant feel, not back off it because it moves the bit everytime they dare to come slightly in front of the vertical
		
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Pigeon said:



			I always thought the aim was to have still hands (but soft, following the movement) and then riding the horse into the contact? And then using half halts (using just the bottom finger on the rein) when needed, but not all the time.
		
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TarrSteps said:



			That. With the addendum of the goal being a straight line from elbow to mouth. This may be momentarily broken for a specific purpose but not as a practice.

The thing is, you can't have a conversation with the horse without this connection.

This thread makes me sad. It's such an amazing feeling to have the rein alive in your hand, it's depressing that people are being taught something that actually takes them further away from being that.
		
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All of this.

The end result of this constant fiddling/vibrating/whatever is a wiggly wobbly inconsistent contact in which the horse doesn't know whether they're coming or going.


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## YasandCrystal (19 September 2013)

nikkimariet said:



			All of this.

The end result of this constant fiddling/vibrating/whatever is a wiggly wobbly inconsistent contact in which the horse doesn't know whether they're coming or going.
		
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Who said 'constant'? Nothing to do with being a constant thing at all - a rein vibration is used when required.  It's hard to teach 'feel' and hard to explain it - it becomes a second nature, which is why even the best instructors often struggle.


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## HayleyUK (19 September 2013)

Stupid question: this line from elbow to mouth - I'm not really 'getting' it, and can't imagine it in my head. Could someone draw it on a picture for me?

Ps: agree with NMT - how can it be a consistent contact that a horse works into if you move the goal posts by wiggling it ever second or two? Agree that there needs to be a balance between a conversation as suggested and an inconsistent contact - but its striking that balance that is difficult meaning people fall into either fixed contacts or this wiggling business.


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## YasandCrystal (19 September 2013)

HayleyUK said:



			Stupid question: this line from elbow to mouth - I'm not really 'getting' it, and can't imagine it in my head. Could someone draw it on a picture for me?
		
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If you look at Pigeon's signature pics you can clearly see a perfect straight line from her elbow through the rein to the mouth. It's a great example.


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## HayleyUK (19 September 2013)

YasandCrystal said:



			If you look at Pigeon's signature pics you can clearly see a perfect straight line from her elbow through the rein to the mouth. It's a great example.
		
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Couldn't see images on my phone but can on the pc - brilliant, completely see what you mean now! I was imagining all kids of wierdness!


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## cptrayes (19 September 2013)

YasandCrystal said:



			Who said 'constant'? Nothing to do with being a constant thing at all - a rein vibration is used when required.  It's hard to teach 'feel' and hard to explain it - it becomes a second nature, which is why even the best instructors often struggle.
		
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Well actually Ferdi Eilberg said 'all ze  time,,,, all ze time'  and if I could ride one tenth as well as Michael or Maria I'd be a very happy person


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## Bernster (19 September 2013)

I do think if someone could bottle this, it would make such a difference to so many of us who struggle with this!

It does seem to be hard to explain, and showing people might be the only effective way.  Cos you can see how very very easy it is to read vibration, half halts, having a conversation, moving the bit etc etc., to mean wiggle your hands from side to side, or pull the bit left and right i.e. see saw hands, or result in pulling back with the hands.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (19 September 2013)

Hmmmm, well I personally wouldnt be happy with making constant vibrations down the rein.

Yes, every now and then to stop the bit going static in the horses mouth, but IMO the rider shouldnt need to keep pulsing the reins every stride. That (IMO) is too much of a conversation and depending on how stable and co-ordinated you are with your upper body, could lead to constant movement of the whole rein/contact, which just keeps moving the goal posts for the horse.

Surely it is the elbow that provides the contact, that should be soft and bent and allowing and restricting as and when needed. Your hands are merely a suitable object in which to hold the reins, these should (again, all IMO and I am by no means perfect in my contact but it is something I am becoming increasingly conscious about) be soft (wrists) but with a firm enough grip to feel what is going on and *if* what is going on is the horse starting to fix onto the bit then yes, make a pulse/vibration if and when needed but again, I shouldnt think that need *should* be constant.


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## TarrSteps (19 September 2013)

Somehow I don't think the Eilberg success is all down to a vibrating hand. 

No one is going to win this one, folks, because there is no one answer. That's like saying there is one, and only one, conversation that can ever be had. If a horse is tough and shoving my hand out of the way I might close my fingers and use the muscles of my arms and back to say, ' Oi, horse, none of that!' But for one that is scared of the hand I'll keep the hand very still and soft and say, 'C'mon, little horse, just have a look at it.' With the second horse I might tolerate a bit of stiffness in the jaw short term in the  name of confidence, in the former, I would forgive some unsteadiness.

'Feel' can be learned. The problem is it's not very exciting work and many people would rather prioritise other aspects of their riding. Fair enough. If instructors are having success with this sort of thing - in the face of ample literature to the contrary and the example of pretty much every top rider in the world - then there must be a market.


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## cptrayes (19 September 2013)

Bernster said:



			I do think if someone could bottle this, it would make such a difference to so many of us who struggle with this!
		
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I'd buy it


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## Jenni_ (19 September 2013)

I was taught still Still STILL hands, with leg, Leg, LEG! That an outline comes from the the horse being forward, straight, and relaxed. That HE must carry himself forward into it, not be put into it. I was taught that there is a time and a place for a wide, lower (not LOW and straight elbowed) hand and this is normally during stretching. 

Throughout the later years of my education, I have been taught that the closer to still and perfect I sit, the easier it is for the horse to go correctly. Once you stop nagging, and tweaking, and just ride still and Forward, the horse will have the ability to carry himself.

Once you can sit and have the soft, consistent hand, then I believe you can go forward to the 'conversation' part... when your hand is completely independent from your body. I was taught that a little vibration, not a drop and yank, will soften a slightly stiff jaw. Kind of like 3 or 4 very tiny, and in succession half halts. 

In regards to this thread, I'd be interested in seeing peoples own definitions of the 'low and fixed hand' everyone is raving about... because I bet some of them would actually fall under a 'soft, stretchy, extended' contact, which there is more than enough time and places for. 


My hand position is something I have struggled with over the years. I'm more than brave enough to post pictures but photobucket won't load at work just now  Will post some later so people can offer their opinions on whether I'm talking rubbish or not!


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## nikkimariet (19 September 2013)

YasandCrystal said:



			Who said 'constant'? Nothing to do with being a constant thing at all - a rein vibration is used when required.  It's hard to teach 'feel' and hard to explain it - it becomes a second nature, which is why even the best instructors often struggle.
		
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Sorry, but I don't see the advantage of riding round sponging/vibrating/whatever the reins 'all ze time'.


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## HayleyUK (19 September 2013)

Reflecting on it - i get far better work out of my mare if I sit, ask for roundness/softness/contact/outline (whatever you want to call it) and then just sit there holding my reins doing absolutely nothing with them except softening muscle tone when she gives me what I want.

My instructor will often say "don't get into the fight over it, just ask and expect it to happen" and by this she means sitting with a quiet still hand not nagging/vibrating/changing the feel down the rein.

I can't really see in my mind, nor in practice - and I'm not saying it won't work for some or that Ferdi is wrong - how niggling down the rein however slightly all the time gives that black and white 'this is good because I've rewarded you by softening', 'this is not good because i'm not softening/still asking' scenario that we seem to all base our training around?


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## Cortez (19 September 2013)

The low-wide thing seems to be a very UK centred thing though? I haven't seen it anywhere else I've been recently (Spain, France, US, Canada). Thing is, if they're teaching this it will have all sorts of derogatory effects: horses not able to stretch (despite what everyone thinks, it isn't going to let the horses go down to the rein); HORRIBLE dead feel for the horse, and therefore also for the rider - or no feel at all; riders tipping forwards all the time and not using their legs/seat. NO horse is EVER going to round up into that sort of contact. The thing about a straight line contact is that it is (or should be) elastic, because ALL the joints from the fingers/wrists/elbows/shoulders/back can move as one. With a broken line contact (wide/low) there can be no connection and the give element is too slow and jerky, if it is given at all. This vibrating thing worries me too, because no matter how you try and visualize it for students, words can never adequately describe the feeling that you are trying to convey, nor the timing which is just as or even more important. It isn't a vibration, it's a conversation in which you ask and respond instantly. If you just keep mindlessly asking without knowing the answer the horse can never understand the question.


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## cptrayes (19 September 2013)

Jenni_ said:



			In regards to this thread, I'd be interested in seeing peoples own definitions of the 'low and fixed hand' everyone is raving about... because I bet some of them would actually fall under a 'soft, stretchy, extended' contact, which there is more than enough time and places for.
		
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Search YouTube for 'prelim' and you'll find them. The very first one I looked at is like it,but I don't think it would be fair of me to post a link to a complete stranger's video even if it is publicly available.

I don't think it's possible to have a soft stretchy contact with straight arms, which is what you can find everywhere these days.


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## nikkimariet (19 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I don't think it would be fair of me to post a link to a complete stranger's video even if it is publicly available.
		
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But it's okay to repost a strangers pictures, even if they're available publicly?!!!!!


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## Jenni_ (19 September 2013)

HayleyUK said:



			Reflecting on it - i get far better work out of my mare if I sit, ask for roundness/softness/contact/outline (whatever you want to call it) and then just sit there holding my reins doing absolutely nothing with them except softening muscle tone when she gives me what I want.

My instructor will often say "don't get into the fight over it, just ask and expect it to happen" and by this she means sitting with a quiet still hand not nagging/vibrating/changing the feel down the rein.

I can't really see in my mind, nor in practice - and I'm not saying it won't work for some or that Ferdi is wrong - how niggling down the rein however slightly all the time gives that black and white 'this is good because I've rewarded you by softening', 'this is not good because i'm not softening/still asking' scenario that we seem to all base our training around?
		
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I was never taught to do it constantly, you should have soft still hands constantly. But a little vibration on a stiff jaw to say 'I'll give if you give' and when they relax the jaw keep the contact soft again. Jaw needs to be soft for the poll to be soft, poll needs to be soft for the neck to be soft, and the neck needs to be soft for the back to be soft and all that!


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## Moomin1 (19 September 2013)

Perfect_Pirouette said:



			Hmmmm, well I personally wouldnt be happy with making constant vibrations down the rein.

Yes, every now and then to stop the bit going static in the horses mouth, but IMO the rider shouldnt need to keep pulsing the reins every stride. That (IMO) is too much of a conversation and depending on how stable and co-ordinated you are with your upper body, could lead to constant movement of the whole rein/contact, which just keeps moving the goal posts for the horse.

Surely it is the elbow that provides the contact, that should be soft and bent and allowing and restricting as and when needed. Your hands are merely a suitable object in which to hold the reins, these should (again, all IMO and I am by no means perfect in my contact but it is something I am becoming increasingly conscious about) be soft (wrists) but with a firm enough grip to feel what is going on and *if* what is going on is the horse starting to fix onto the bit then yes, make a pulse/vibration if and when needed but again, I shouldnt think that need *should* be constant.
		
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I agree with this fully


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## KautoStar1 (19 September 2013)

Carl and Charlotte would be perfect examples of hand position &#8211; soft still hands, giving elbow and with a classic shoulder, hip, heal alignment.
As my instructor always says to me &#8211; shorter rein, longer arm.

Interesting thread.


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## cptrayes (19 September 2013)

nikkimariet said:



			But it's okay to repost a strangers pictures, even if they're available publicly?!!!!!
		
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A picture already published on this forum previously seeking comment about a horses competition progress? Yes, I have no problem with that.


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## Jenni_ (19 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Search YouTube for 'prelim' and you'll find them. The very first one I looked at is like it,but I don't think it would be fair of me to post a link to a complete stranger's video even if it is publicly available.

I don't think it's possible to have a soft stretchy contact with straight arms, which is what you can find everywhere these days.
		
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In competition I'd expect those to be doing it out of bad habit, its more the folk who see people training/schooling and go 'oh they've got a low/fixed hand' when they may infact be doing some stretchy stretchy, 'take my hand forward' work.


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## Moomin1 (19 September 2013)

nikkimariet said:



			But it's okay to repost a strangers pictures, even if they're available publicly?!!!!!
		
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Where has CPT done this?


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## nikkimariet (19 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			A picture already published on this forum previously seeking comment about a horses competition progress? Yes, I have no problem with that.
		
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Wow, true colours and all.


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## nikkimariet (19 September 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Where has CPT done this?
		
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Another genuine question Moomin?

On someone else's thread a while back now, that had nothing to do with me and not a thread I had posted on.. It's ok to repost my pictures apparently, but not someone else's video.

Nowt as queer as folk.


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## cptrayes (19 September 2013)

KautoStar1 said:



			Carl and Charlotte would be perfect examples of hand position &#8211; soft still hands, giving elbow and with a classic shoulder, hip, heal alignment.
As my instructor always says to me &#8211; shorter rein, longer arm.

Interesting thread.
		
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Yes, and even the top riders can't be perfect all the time. There are plenty of vids of Laura Bechtolsheimer having to move her hands an awful lot to control Mistral Hojris.

I think we can let ourselves off the hook


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## cptrayes (19 September 2013)

Jenni_ said:



			In competition I'd expect those to be doing it out of bad habit, its more the folk who see people training/schooling and go 'oh they've got a low/fixed hand' when they may infact be doing some stretchy stretchy, 'take my hand forward' work.
		
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Jenni lots of people earlier on in the thread have reported seeing trainers training a low, fixed hand. Although I only see them when I compete, I do believe that given the number I am seeing, that it is as a result of consistently training this way.


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## ester (19 September 2013)

I was a fixed. low hand person... with open fingers being responsible for any softness- resulting in reins just getting longer! 

Bending my elbows was a reveleation! (and closing my hands  )


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## cptrayes (19 September 2013)

ester said:



			I was a fixed. low hand person... with open fingers being responsible for any softness- resulting in reins just getting longer! 

Bending my elbows was a reveleation! (and closing my hands  )
		
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Did someone teach you Ester, or did you just discover it?


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## ester (19 September 2013)

ooh a bit of a both I think, I've learnt an awful lot more since having my own than in RS. So yeah a bit of playing around, a bit of guidance, a bit of watching others that were much better than me  I discovered the outside rein about the same sort of time too! 

I'd never been taught low hands fwiw, just never had them corrected.


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## Tiarella (19 September 2013)

Cptrayes - just found your youtube page and was expecting to watch and see great things. I was dissapointed and quite shocked actually watching through them  someone that speaks so highly of their knowledge and quickness to critque others id expect some very talented effortless riding - this i did not see. 

I dont *think* ive ever had anything to do with you before but things pass by so quick on hho so can never remember anyway but im actually quite insulted/offended the way you comment on other peoples riding/way of going. Im not interested in starting arguments as im very much a lurker nowadays but i do wish people would think before they speak (or type).


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## kirstyhen (19 September 2013)

Low hands straight arms, particularly in prelim dressage, often come down to ride too long (because dressage equals long stirrups) causing riders to ride on their toes, pitch forward and balance on their hands. 
As an instructor I find myself telling people to lower their hands as much as I tell them to lift them, but that has nothing to do with getting the horse to work in an outline and more to stop them yanking the horse in the chops or falling off!!


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## Moomin1 (19 September 2013)

rachaelstar said:



			Cptrayes - just found your youtube page and was expecting to watch and see great things. I was dissapointed and quite shocked actually watching through them  someone that speaks so highly of their knowledge and quickness to critque others id expect some very talented effortless riding - this i did not see. 

I dont *think* ive ever had anything to do with you before but things pass by so quick on hho so can never remember anyway but im actually quite insulted/offended the way you comment on other peoples riding/way of going. Im not interested in starting arguments as im very much a lurker nowadays but i do wish people would think before they speak (or type).
		
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If the YouTube page is vids of CPT riding then surely it's just as insulting to be saying what you are about her riding as you say she is about others?


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## HayleyUK (19 September 2013)

Jenni_ said:



			I was never taught to do it constantly, you should have soft still hands constantly. But a little vibration on a stiff jaw to say 'I'll give if you give' and when they relax the jaw keep the contact soft again. Jaw needs to be soft for the poll to be soft, poll needs to be soft for the neck to be soft, and the neck needs to be soft for the back to be soft and all that!
		
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Thats exactly how I'm taught - and it works.

I was referring in some way to the comments made about doing this niggling thing "all the time" - If i niggled the rein 24/7 on board, where is the 'reward' or let up? How does the pony know what she's done is right - whereas with the way I (and you) are referring to, the softness and stillness is the reward.


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## Tiarella (19 September 2013)

*rolls eyes* when people make comments about other peoples riding through a forum you expect them to be established at a fairly decent level and have some expertise behind them. I was expecting to watch and enjoy her videos but unfortunately didnt. This is the first time i have commented on someones riding on a forum as i do not have the expertise or established at a high level (currently competing at elem and schooling med on one horse i ride) although, i havent actually stated 'she is a bad rider' comments, i was just expecting to enjoy watching the videos.


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## Moomin1 (19 September 2013)

rachaelstar said:



			*rolls eyes* when people make comments about other peoples riding through a forum you expect them to be established at a fairly decent level and have some expertise behind them. I was expecting to watch and enjoy her videos but unfortunately didnt. This is the first time i have commented on someones riding on a forum as i do not have the expertise or established at a high level (currently competing at elem and schooling med on one horse i ride) although, i havent actually stated 'she is a bad rider' comments, i was just expecting to enjoy watching the videos.
		
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I may be wrong, but I can't see where CPT has made comments about other people's riding in particular? The thread appears to be talking about the issue in general.


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## Tiarella (19 September 2013)

Whether its a direct/indirect or a generalisation there is no need for comments to be made. Everyone has to start and learn somewhere - i dont believe anyone is gifted with the talent of being an amazing rider without help along the way. Id rather see crotch hands than snatch hands anyday!!


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## MotherOfChickens (19 September 2013)

rachaelstar said:



			Id rather see crotch hands than snatch hands anyday!!
		
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same thing surely  (gets coat..)


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## Jenni_ (19 September 2013)

HayleyUK said:



			Thats exactly how I'm taught - and it works.

I was referring in some way to the comments made about doing this niggling thing "all the time" - If i niggled the rein 24/7 on board, where is the 'reward' or let up? How does the pony know what she's done is right - whereas with the way I (and you) are referring to, the softness and stillness is the reward.
		
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Exactly! I didn't want people thinking I meant to niggle constantly lol.

Disclaimer here- I am actually a not very good rider. I know a lot more in theory than I am actually able to do due to a few years of watching and having commentary from dressage riders. But I can execute the basics of an effective position and have a good starting grasp of the 'feel' I think....


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## Tiarella (19 September 2013)

Crotch hands - glued to crotch, tense.

Snatch hands - higher up, inconsistant contact through snatching on bit

???


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## Tilo (19 September 2013)

Ive been trying to visualise the low hands look since opening this thread, but after a quick look on some youtube videos I can see what it looks like now.
It dosent resemble the straight line from elbow to horse's mouth that I was taught at RS in the 80's.

Maybe this low hand (as already suggested) is partly taught, but it could also be rider tension, eg. tense shoulders, or lack of core balance or a habit acquired?
Maybe a poorly fitting saddle, tipping rider forwards?

Either way, it doesn't look particularly kind on the horse's mouth, but rider's may not be aware that they are doing it. It's so easy to fall into bad habits without realising it.


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## MotherOfChickens (19 September 2013)

rachaelstar said:



			Crotch hands - glued to crotch, tense.

Snatch hands - higher up, inconsistant contact through snatching on bit

???
		
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oh dear. if I have to explain it it won't be funny. snatch is slang for crotch in certain parts of the country-obviously not warwickshire . *awaits infraction*


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## Tiarella (19 September 2013)

Def not in warwickshire!!


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## TarrSteps (19 September 2013)

KautoStar1 said:



			Carl and Charlotte would be perfect examples of hand position &#8211; soft still hands, giving elbow and with a classic shoulder, hip, heal alignment.
As my instructor always says to me &#8211; shorter rein, longer arm.

Interesting thread.
		
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Very much. But most people see them only on Advanced horses and even their young horses will be naturally uphill. Without context, this can give people the wrong idea of 'correct'. 

Although I agree that I have never seen a good rider ever riding with a straight arm and the line broken below.


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## Cortez (19 September 2013)

Tilo said:



			Ive been trying to visualise the low hands look since opening this thread, but after a quick look on some youtube videos I can see what it looks like now.
It dosent resemble the straight line from elbow to horse's mouth that I was taught at RS in the 80's.

Maybe this low hand (as already suggested) is partly taught, but it could also be rider tension, eg. tense shoulders, or lack of core balance or a habit acquired?
Maybe a poorly fitting saddle, tipping rider forwards?

Either way, it doesn't look particularly kind on the horse's mouth, but rider's may not be aware that they are doing it. It's so easy to fall into bad habits without realising it.
		
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It is definitely being taught (I took a lesson at a clinic with a visiting UK dressage person who advised me to do this with a very difficult in the mouth horse - who came this way, from the UK incidentally ), and possibly now other people are following the trend. But......it, A. doesn't work! B. causes havoc with riders tipping forwards, and generally further contributes to the awful standards of riding so often seen.


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## Jenni_ (19 September 2013)

I will open up my opinions in pictures so anyone who had criticism feel free to express!

Hands here- too low and pretty fixed





Straight elbows but not grabby and pretty stillhand needs picked up and bend in the elbow





Hands here are low - although it is a blurry picture the line from elbow to mouth is pretty straight and the low hands here were being used to encourage a very 'up in front' horse to stretch down into a less advanced, relaxed outline. 





Hands perhaps a bit high here- possibly because she had just attempted a flyer and I had to take a bit of a hold but an improvement on the old crotch hands





Slightly lower hands again to encourage a longer frame but a bend in the elbow and arm is independent from the body and hand is quiet (I hope )





Hand is picked up, perhaps again slightly too high- and I'm maybe sitting back a bit far. 






These pictures start at 2010 and go up to about 3 months ago. From what I can see, I've gradually stopped tipping as badly and my position looks more relaxed and softer as I've brought my hands up. I am by no means a good or tidy rider but I hope these pictures show even slightly the change in bringing the hand up. 

Totally open to criticism if anyone disagrees and am happy for any of these pictures to be used as examples of what people are trying to explain if relevant.


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## Cortez (19 September 2013)

Not going to crit your riding (which is not bad, BTW), but just want to say that the hands don't necessarily go lower when asking the horse to stretch down, but they do go FORWARDS to follow the horse down. And it's the wide thing that puzzles me; why do that? (You're not doing that, to clarify!)


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## Jenni_ (19 September 2013)

Cortez said:



			Not going to crit your riding (which is not bad, BTW), but just want to say that the hands don't necessarily go lower when asking the horse to stretch down, but they do go FORWARDS to follow the horse down. And it's the wide thing that puzzles me; why do that? (You're not doing that, to clarify!)
		
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Totally agree, think it was a bit confusing the way I explained it. With that particular horse we found the only way to make him relax into a longer frame was to put them down a wee bit- tried the just pushing forward alone and he didn't take it. forward and down a wee tad, nice relaxed outline, then slowly picked him up. 

But- as you can see I am tipping a bit in that picture still so with a bit of tweaking I probably could have had the best of both worlds!


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## HayleyUK (19 September 2013)

I don't think you need to be a perfect rider to comment, just aware of your own shortcomings. 

I'm by no means the next Charlotte-  but I do know where my faults are, work on them with lessons and absorb theory through watching, reading, discussion. By some of the comments on here, I'd be inclined to suggest you'd think I shouldn't comment, because my riding isn't of the standard of Carl for example. The fact I may struggle to put something into practice, or need to ask for clarification on a topic/idea/suggestion doesn't mean I don't know what the ideal is.

The danger is when people who think things like low hands etc are the right way or the ideal and then enforce this on others.


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## Joyous70 (19 September 2013)

MotherOfChickens said:



			oh dear. if I have to explain it it won't be funny. snatch is slang for crotch in certain parts of the country-obviously not warwickshire . *awaits infraction*
		
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Im from Warwickshire and knew exactly what you meant

Im enjoying reading this thread because i suffer from rein slippage too  and have too soft a contact  im trying desperately hard to keep the bend in my elbows and ride with my hands as a pair in front of me, i don't travel around them on my horses neck, but theyre not proper.  When i have a lesson im constantly reminded hands in front of you as a pair its not easy when your a short armed midget tho!


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## Moomin1 (19 September 2013)

rachaelstar said:



			Whether its a direct/indirect or a generalisation there is no need for comments to be made. Everyone has to start and learn somewhere - i dont believe anyone is gifted with the talent of being an amazing rider without help along the way. Id rather see crotch hands than snatch hands anyday!!
		
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I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused.  Are you saying that people shouldn't post threads asking about incorrect riding/methods?  That seems a bit far fetched! ;-)

And to be fair, you did comment that CPT's riding was not as good as you were expecting, and insinuated that she shouldn't therefore be in a position to comment.  Or at least, that is how it came across. :-(


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## Sarah1 (19 September 2013)

MotherOfChickens said:



			same thing surely  (gets coat..)
		
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PMSL! 

Just what this thread needed, thank you


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## cptrayes (19 September 2013)

rachaelstar said:



			Cptrayes - just found your youtube page and was expecting to watch and see great things. I was dissapointed and quite shocked actually watching through them  someone that speaks so highly of their knowledge and quickness to critque others id expect some very talented effortless riding - this i did not see. 

I dont *think* ive ever had anything to do with you before but things pass by so quick on hho so can never remember anyway but im actually quite insulted/offended the way you comment on other peoples riding/way of going. Im not interested in starting arguments as im very much a lurker nowadays but i do wish people would think before they speak (or type).
		
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Unlike you, I have never criticised anyone's riding on this forum.

Your expectation of my riding was not set by me, contrary to your suggestion, I have never claimed anything of my riding ability on this forum or any other.

This forum would be empty if only the perfect could ever question anything.


p.s.  the dark horse had some difficult behaviours in a competition environment which I was advised to force into submission by a lot of people who know better, in theory, than me.  The last comment from a listed BD judge I had was, 'he needs a man on him'.   Instead, I continued to try to find out what his problem was and he is currently two weeks into his rehab for ligament resection on six kissing spines.


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## Bernster (19 September 2013)

Cortez said:



			Not going to crit your riding (which is not bad, BTW), but just want to say that the hands don't necessarily go lower when asking the horse to stretch down, but they do go FORWARDS to follow the horse down. And it's the wide thing that puzzles me; why do that? (You're not doing that, to clarify!)
		
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I'm currently being told to do the wide and low thing with my hands, by two different instructors, both of whom I rate for different reasons.  In my case, I suspect it's connected to my inconsistent rein contact as well as other things that are going on with horse and rider, and she def responds when I do, by softening, lowering her head and bringing her back up so I'm assuming it must be doing some good.  But maybe what this is is an example of the stretchy long n low that some people on here have been talking about.  I will ask during my next lesson!

Finding this thread very handy, well, the bits where people are actually talking about pros, cons and what they mean anyway.  The intermittent personal digs between posters, less so ;-)


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## cptrayes (19 September 2013)

Bernster said:



			I'm currently being told to do the wide and low thing with my hands, by two different instructors, both of whom I rate for different reasons.  In my case, I suspect it's connected to my inconsistent rein contact as well as other things that are going on with horse and rider, and she def responds when I do, by softening, lowering her head and bringing her back up so I'm assuming it must be doing some good.  But maybe what this is is an example of the stretchy long n low that some people on here have been talking about.  I will ask during my next lesson!

Finding this thread very handy, well, the bits where people are actually talking about pros, cons and what they mean anyway.  The intermittent personal digs between posters, less so ;-)
		
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I do the wide and low thing. I find it an easy way to get the horse to go long deep and round with a bouncing back. I'm puzzled by people seeming to say it doesn't work, because it does for me


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## Moomin1 (19 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I do the wide and low thing. I find it an easy way to get the horse to go long deep and round with a bouncing back. I'm puzzled by people seeming to say it doesn't work, because it does for me 

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I have to say, having a horse who is large shouldered and large hindquartered, who struggles to work through properly as a result, the low and wide has really helped in getting her rounding her back and asking for a contact.  I have to do very little with the rein/bit other than ask for a slight inside bend and the very odd reminder with a little squeeze when I use this method.  And I know what you mean by the 'bouncing back' - it's the only method so far which has enabled us to achieve that. Not saying of course that other methods won't in the future, but for now, whilst she is building her muscles up, it seems to really benefit her.


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## Cortez (19 September 2013)

Hmm, that's interesting, because I've never seen this method make any lasting improvement to a horse's acceptance of the bit, understanding of connection or longitudinal flexion - perhaps the practitioners who have found it useful are more skilled than those I've seen do it? It doesn't make any sense from a theoretical point of view either, but I await further clarification, especially on why wide hands are considered helpful.

ETA: being the good student I try to be, I did do this when asked by the English instructor - horse was utterly freaked out and it set us back weeks, but this is a particularly difficult rescue horse who's not been well served by previous riding and is terrified of his mouth, poor chap. I just fail to see how this would be useful at all.


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## cptrayes (19 September 2013)

Cortez if you don't go wide and low as the horse drops its head into long, deep and round, you can't maintain the line from mouth to elbow, it breaks upwards at the hands.


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## Moomin1 (19 September 2013)

Cortez said:



			Hmm, that's interesting, because I've never seen this method make any lasting improvement to a horse's acceptance of the bit, understanding of connection or longitudinal flexion - perhaps the practitioners who have found it useful are more skilled than those I've seen do it? It doesn't make any sense from a theoretical point of view either, but I await further clarification, especially on why wide hands are considered helpful.
		
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I am afraid I've had a hard day at work Cortez, and my brain is a bit frazzled, so I cannot answer that one! But I know that it certainly without a doubt is helping my mare atm.  Like I say, I will await to see whether it has any lasting improvement, as she/we are a work in progress still.  But she is a million miles from how she was a few months ago.  

ETA - when I talk of low and wide - I do not mean my hands are pinned to her shoulders/withers etc - I am talking soft elbows and hands allowing her to stretch forwards and down with very little interference from my hands.  I couldn't honestly say why the wide hands have such a profound effect but they do - and there is certainly no 'forced' outline there - she is, for pretty much the first time ever, using her quarters and back completely and the feeling is fantastic.


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## Pigeon (19 September 2013)

Tnavas said:



			My instructor calls that 'Slippery rein disease' I suffer from that periodically.
		
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Oh it's so annoying!! I think I need to sellotape my hands to the reins.


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## cptrayes (19 September 2013)

It's not about understanding of the bit for me, it's about freedom of the back on warm up and cool down. I have almost no contact the way I was taught to do it (by two different GP riders)


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## Cortez (19 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Cortez if you don't go wide and low as the horse drops its head into long, deep and round, you can't maintain the line from mouth to elbow, it breaks upwards at the hands.
		
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Ah, that would explain it; I wouldn't go LDR if you held a gun to my head. I WOULD follow the horse's head FORWARDS as he lowers and stretches, which does maintain the unbroken line from elbow to mouth. Isn't LDR the new, PC way of saying rollkuer?


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## Moomin1 (19 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			It's not about understanding of the bit for me, it's about freedom of the back on warm up and cool down. I have almost no contact the way I was taught to do it (by two different GP riders)
		
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See I'm finding exactly that too.  When I use this method I barely have contact on the reins - she literally asks down herself into a contact - it's so soft and her trot is amazingly supple and springy when she does.


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## Moomin1 (19 September 2013)

Cortez said:



			Ah, that would explain it; I wouldn't go LDR if you held a gun to my head. I WOULD follow the horse's head FORWARDS as he lowers and stretches, which does maintain the unbroken line from elbow to mouth. Isn't LDR the new, PC way of saying rollkuer?
		
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I don't know about CPT, but I am certainly not talking about that - I actually do mean that I follow her head forwards and down when she asks?  Confused.com.  She certainly is FAR from rollkur!! :-O


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## Jenni_ (19 September 2013)

Cortez said:



			Ah, that would explain it; I wouldn't go LDR if you held a gun to my head. I WOULD follow the horse's head FORWARDS as he lowers and stretches, which does maintain the unbroken line from elbow to mouth. Isn't LDR the new, PC way of saying rollkuer?
		
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I think deep and round with the neck high and pinned to the chest is basically the PC rollkur.... But I think a bit of length in the neck with a little roll for a second or two helps really lift the muscles in the back (not that I do it very much)

I just looked at different photos and tried to replicate it myself to a degree- pictured of a high neck and nose pinned to chest I just brought my chin to my neck- sore and stiff with no use of any other muscles. I then dropped my neck forward and put my chin nearer my chest.... I can feel muscles below my shoulders being stretched and used when I do that.


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## Cortez (19 September 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			I don't know about CPT, but I am certainly not talking about that - I actually do mean that I follow her head forwards and down when she asks?  Confused.com.  She certainly is FAR from rollkur!! :-O
		
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A pic would be helpful here, because what I've been seeing isn't following at all; it's stuck like glue to the front of the saddle or sometimes to the front of the rider's thigh, and blocked by the stiff arm and wrist. Unless your elbows are bent there is no "elastic".


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## cptrayes (19 September 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			I don't know about CPT, but I am certainly not talking about that - I actually do mean that I follow her head forwards and down when she asks?  Confused.com.  She certainly is FAR from rollkur!! :-O
		
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Ditto. Nothing like rolkur, what I'm doing. Though I did try that a couple of times to control some really challenging behaviour. It didn't work


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## Moomin1 (19 September 2013)

Cortez said:



			A pic would be helpful here, because what I've been seeing isn't following at all; it's stuck like glue to the front of the saddle or sometimes to the front of the rider's thigh, and blocked by the stiff arm and wrist. Unless your elbows are bent there is no "elastic".
		
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Oh god no -that's exactly what I was saying earlier - I call that the 'hauling' position!!  What I mean is that my hands are forwards and towards her head as she asks down - so sort of the base of her neck - but not anywhere near her neck (that really doesn't help does it?!!Lol!). 

I don't put pics of myself on here Cortez for personal reasons, so a bit difficult to explain really.  

The position you talk of is abhorrent - I hate it and certainly encourages a false outline.


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## cptrayes (19 September 2013)

Cortez said:



			A pic would be helpful here, because what I've been seeing isn't following at all; it's stuck like glue to the front of the saddle or sometimes to the front of the rider's thigh, and blocked by the stiff arm and wrist. Unless your elbows are bent there is no "elastic".
		
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That's what I was talking about when I started the thread. I think we all agree, it's just difficult when you have to use words to describe feelings.


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## Cortez (19 September 2013)

True  So, are we all agreeing that the low hands thing, with stiff arms and forward tipping riders is Not a Good Thing?


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## Moomin1 (19 September 2013)

Cortez said:



			True  So, are we all agreeing that the low hands thing, with stiff arms and forward tipping riders is Not a Good Thing?
		
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Well I certainly agree - if what you mean is the 'hauling' hands where the hands are fixed to the withers, straight elbows, horse's mouth stretched back!  

I suppose a better way of describing what I mean about low and wide that I use is hands well away from the wither/shoulder  to either side, and forwards towards the horse's ears, allowing them to stretch down? If that makes more sense?


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## cptrayes (19 September 2013)

Cortez said:



			True  So, are we all agreeing that the low hands thing, with stiff arms and forward tipping riders is Not a Good Thing?
		
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I'm sure we are. And what's even worse is that several people from different parts of the country have said they know of trainers who are teaching their pupils to do it


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## brighthair (19 September 2013)

I've found this photo (don't know if it helps!) 
My hands look low and possibly fixed at first glance but when you look closer I have little contact, and I was asking her to stretch and take my hand forward at the end of the session


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## ester (19 September 2013)

This has got me pondering a bit! - older photo (santa claus took them) but hands here wider and lower than 'normal' - I wonder if other people are similar?







hands more 'normal' 













ps they'll be lots of other things wrong but be nice to the novice with the pony


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## Cortez (19 September 2013)

brighthair said:



			I've found this photo (don't know if it helps!) 
My hands look low and possibly fixed at first glance but when you look closer I have little contact, and I was asking her to stretch and take my hand forward at the end of the session





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Did it work?


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## brighthair (19 September 2013)

Yes. That photo is the stretch I wanted, her neck is loose and "wobbly" and she had no tension anywhere


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## Cortez (19 September 2013)

brighthair said:



			Yes. That photo is the stretch I wanted, her neck is loose and "wobbly" and she had no tension anywhere
		
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See, now, I could get all picky here and point out a few things, but I won't in the interests of world peace, etc.


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## Moomin1 (19 September 2013)

ester said:



			This has got me pondering a bit! - older photo (santa claus took them) but hands here wider and lower than 'normal' - I wonder if other people are similar?







hands more 'normal' 













ps they'll be lots of other things wrong but be nice to the novice with the pony 

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I like the overall picture - looks pretty soft and rounded, not forced.


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## brighthair (19 September 2013)

That's kind of the problem with photos I guess - its only ever a snapshot in time. Plus from the photo you aren't feeling what the rider is feeling
I only used the photo to demonstrate its not low wide and fixed hauling the horses head in. I am not a competent rider, I'm aware of that


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## Cortez (19 September 2013)

brighthair said:



			That's kind of the problem with photos I guess - its only ever a snapshot in time. Plus from the photo you aren't feeling what the rider is feeling
I only used the photo to demonstrate its not low wide and fixed hauling the horses head in. I am not a competent rider, I'm aware of that
		
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No, no, wasn't your riding especially, that's not so bad from the look of it (but bending your elbows would be a game changer for you, I'll bet...........see, couldn't resist: sorry), but the horse doesn't look how you say she feels.........her nose is not going particularly forward (unless it was formerly on her chest) or down. This is why having "eyes on the ground" is vital when training, because the feel and the look don't always tally.


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## brighthair (19 September 2013)

But for her that was a stretch - due to her build. Yes it could have been more, but I won't push for something that's hard for her when its a cool down if that makes sense? I just want swing over back, loose neck and a pootle round. If I'm really really pushing for low, it's hard work for her and that defeats the purpose of the cool down being an easy stretch (if that makes sense?)
She is not built to stretch in any way! 
That was a lesson (I don't ride without someone on ground)


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## 3Beasties (19 September 2013)

I am a member of the low hands/tipping forward rider brigade but what can I say, I'm not perfect (far from it!) and know my faults that need working on. If that makes me a bad rider then so be it.

Threads like these do nothing for ones confidence....


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## cptrayes (19 September 2013)

3Beasties said:



			I am a member of the low hands/tipping forward rider brigade but what can I say, I'm not perfect (far from it!) and know my faults that need working on. If that makes me a bad rider then so be it.

Threads like these do nothing for ones confidence....
		
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3 beasties none of us are perfect and your seat in the avatar looks very nice and so does your horse.. The question of the thread was whether it's simply a mistake or whether you were taught it.

Were you taught to ride that way, or is it like me - I look down constantly but noone ever taught me to do it, it's all my own work  ?


Brighthair and Ester - exactly, I know what you are both feeling in those pix. It's about relaxation, stretch and reward for warm up and cool down.  For me, that's a correct use of low hands.


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## 3Beasties (19 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Were you taught to ride that way, or is it like me - I look down constantly but noone ever taught me to do it, it's all my own work  ?
		
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Oh it's definitely 'me' rather than having been taught that way, I've not had all that many lessons considering how long I've been riding, I've mainly been self taught! I'm trying to find an instructor that will deal with 'me' and not just the horse!

These are more recent pics showing the bad hands/tipping etc, the avatar one was just a lucky snap of me sitting half way decent for once!


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## cptrayes (19 September 2013)

You are SO hard on yourself. For the amount of 'proppa'  riding  you've done, you are doing really well. I hope that doesn't sound patronising. Cut yourself some slack


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## Tnavas (19 September 2013)

themule said:



			phew, glad someone else doesnt think that wiggling the reins or vibrating the fingers is how to get a horse round. Still contact, leg to hand and half halting to balance. Flexions to improve lateral suppleness and the horse should seek the hand wherever it goes to maintain that constant feel, not back off it because it moves the bit everytime they dare to come slightly in front of the vertical
		
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yes, yes, yes!


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## Caol Ila (19 September 2013)

My horse enjoys a good stretch down, but when I ask, I move my hands forward, lengthen the rein, and she follows the contact down.  My hands don't go below her withers.

As someone else has said, bad habits aren't being criticized but the practice of *teaching* what is viewed by many (including me) as incorrect is.  I mean, my eyes are perpetually glued to my horse's ears and I have a terrible habit of drawing my heel up to my horse's arse when I ask for lateral movements.  Been trying to fix that one for years.  

Wherever your hands are, I think we all agree that the contact needs to be elastic and giving.  The impression I get from people I know who are in riding schools is that this is not always made clear.  The instructor may be shouting, "More contact" and the student increases the tension in the rein, but, being green, they also increase tension in their whole body so they are essentially driving with the handbrake on.  The importance of *elasticity* and *softness* in the connection is not given precedence.


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## ester (19 September 2013)

more pondering, I think my reins are likely longer than normal so although my hands are lower my arms don't have to be completely straight?? 

fwiw Frank very much had to be taught to stretch at all (think stressy tight welsh  very much not the sort to! 'allow the horse to stretch' was not our idea of a fun trot movement in a test) and it was a different instructor to my normal who really managed to get him stretched but soft on top and managed to get me to 'feel' what a proper swing was. I can't remember what we did to start with exactly but I think it involved sitting light, very much pushing the back end forwards (lazy stressy welsh  ) and I can't remember what I did with the front end! So much for me retaining my learning!


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## Tnavas (19 September 2013)

Regardless of what pace or movement or position of the horses head, there should a straight line from the riders elbow, through the little finger to the bit, so that the forearm becomes one with the rein.

If the horses head goes down the riders hands become lower, if the horse raises its head up the hands come up to maintain at all times, the straight line, elbow, hand, horses mouth!

A very old pic


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## BBP (19 September 2013)

I would love love love one of you who seems to have grasped how to ride with a perfect contact to come and show me how, to make me understand.  I carry my hands too low, they wiggle when they shouldn't, go tight when they shouldn't, and give too much when they shouldn't.  I wasn't taught these things, but nor was I corrected either.  20 years of bad habits are hard to fix once you finally realise what it is you are doing wrong.  I'm convinced im ruining my horse with my bad hands.  The other day he was tensing up in the canter transition, backing up into me and pinning his ears.  I got so fed up with myself I took his reins off his bit, tied them in a loop around his neck and rode a whole dressage test just holding onto that.  He didn't pin his ears, his transitions were forwards and accurate and it was much more pleasing, pretty damning evidence that it's my hands that are the issue.  I can't find an instructor to help me and whilst I know im rubbish I can't seem to fix it. 8(


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## charlie76 (19 September 2013)

Katpt....where are you?


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## its_noodles (19 September 2013)

Tnavas said:



			Regardless of what pace or movement or position of the horses head, there should a straight line from the riders elbow, through the little finger to the bit, so that the forearm becomes one with the rein.

If the horses head goes down the riders hands become lower, if the horse raises its head up the hands come up to maintain at all times, the straight line, elbow, hand, horses mouth!

A very old pic
		
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Hi Tnavas,
I have a Q for u. I have seen a lot of people from Australia and New Zealand riding with white helmet, but not here in the UK. Are white helmets popular over there???


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## Tnavas (19 September 2013)

20 years ago when this pic was taken we had white or black helmets as a choice. It's only in the past 10 years or so we have had a bigger range to choose from


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## BBP (20 September 2013)

charlie76 said:



			Katpt....where are you?
		
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I'm near Cambridge.


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## JFTDWS (20 September 2013)

Tnavas said:



			20 years ago when this pic was taken we had white or black helmets as a choice. It's only in the past 10 years or so we have had a bigger range to choose from
		
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I've never seen a 20 y/old photo from the UK where someone's wearing a white helmet though.  It must be a regional fashion to some extent?

I think it looks pretty cool, fwiw, just curious


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## Patterdale (20 September 2013)

KatPT said:



			I would love love love one of you who seems to have grasped how to ride with a perfect contact to come and show me how, to make me understand. (
		
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I explain the correct contact as being like holding a toddlers hand in a busy place. If they are pulling and trying to get away it it quite a strong contact, and if they are walking calmly by your side it is very soft and relaxed. If they try to get away again, it gets stronger. 
Either way, you never pull or jerk, but equally you never totally let go. They have to know you are always there, holding their hand. 

Hope this helps


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## TarrSteps (20 September 2013)

The white helmets are partly a hot county thing but also standard in polocross, which is very popular and something a lot of people would have at least done a bit of in PC. So kind of fashion but from a practical source.

3beasties re your pics. In all 3 photos your elbow to mouth alignment is pretty good. The horse could be more 'up and out' - test pic is the best - but that's not just a case of picking the hand up, it's about riding the horse a bit more 'up' and tidying up a few small - and very common! - position slips. You could try pulling the TOPS of your shoulder blades towards each other - not pulling them back and down, which hollows the back - to correct your slouch (which is nothing on mine! ) and thinking of touching the back of your neck to your collar. But the overall picture of your contact is soft and allowing (least so, maybe, in the second pic, where your elbow has come up and back) but but loose and wishy washy, which is important for a green horse. There is a lot to like!  Don't get sucked into academic internet bickering  and take it personally. I guarantee you none of the players mean it that way.


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## chestnut cob (20 September 2013)

KatPT said:



			I can't find an instructor to help me and whilst I know im rubbish I can't seem to fix it. 8(
		
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This is another post in itself... I think it's SO hard to find decent instructors.  IME the stereotypical BHSAIs are awful and old fashioned in their views and teaching styles.  I've been to a couple of SJers who actually I'd go back to, but only for the jumping and not for flatwork.  I've been to someone who trains with a top British DR rider and rides at a reasonable level; that one was the worst of the lot.  I watched that particular person make a 4yo horse's mouth bleed by sawing on it to "get its head down because it knows full well how to go on the bit", and work another horse in true rollkur (not just LDR) "to stop him spooking".  After all of that I thought I'd try a more classical approach, where I was taught not to take up a contact, do everything on a loose rein so the horse "carries himself"(which was mostly slopping along on the forehand with a dipped back, looking back), and when we did progress to riding with a contact, I was told to use constant hand movements.  No stillness or consistency at any point in the contact, constant "conversation" with the mouth, using the outside rein and inside rein continually for different things.  It's no wonder we barely got out of walk, I couldn't coordinate all of the hand movements I was supposed to be making!

I'm not sure whether it's because a lot of trainers/ instructors actually don't know how to do these things properly themselves, or because they don't know how to communicate it, or because they think as a paying customer you want results immediately so use any method they can for a quick fix.

(FWIW, I now go to an eventer who is absolutely superb.  I feel like I've finally found someone who makes it all make sense to me!)


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## chestnut cob (20 September 2013)

Patterdale said:



			I explain the correct contact as being like holding a toddlers hand in a busy place. If they are pulling and trying to get away it it quite a strong contact, and if they are walking calmly by your side it is very soft and relaxed. If they try to get away again, it gets stronger. 
Either way, you never pull or jerk, but equally you never totally let go. They have to know you are always there, holding their hand. 

Hope this helps 

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This is how it has been explained to me recently (without the toddler analogy though).  The hardest thing for me to learn (still learning) is to recognise early enough that second when the horse gives, so that I can give too.  But I suppose that's feel that will come with experience.


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## TarrSteps (20 September 2013)

Ah, cc, but in the general run of things you don't 'give' when the horse softens, you just don't take. There are certainly instances where you surrender the rein, or do a give and take, but let's talk basic trotting around. 

Let's say we're playing tug o' war (purists and pendants, look away now! ). If I hold against you I do it with as much pressure as necessary, starting with my hand, moving up to using my core. If you REALLY set against me I might use some 'half halts' to release a bit of the tension. Then, all of a sudden, you give. If I then lean forward at that moment, what happens to you? Face plant or on your *** most likely. But if I absorb the give in the rope, stay stable in my own body, and just follow your movement I will be able to help you stay on your feet. If I'm braced against you, then when you give I'm going down too, either face first, or backwards, pulling you over too. (Remember, you can let the rein slip, the horse NEVER can.) 

So when the horse gives, in that moment the balance is very fragile. If you move or throw the rein at the horse it will likely upset things. It's the HORSE giving that provides the release of pressure that acts as a reward. In fact this is hard to do and requires a lot of strength - it's very difficult to retain a soft, strong position through the horse resisting and then giving to the hand. Developing this stability is part of what top riders work out to achieve.

Good hands are an outgrowth of a stable base of support. As was said earlier, the first step is an independent hand not knowing what to 'do'.

It can be very useful to ask your instructor to hold the rein at the bit end and 'be the horse' not only to communicate the feel to you but also to find out how you feel to the horse.


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## ihatework (20 September 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Ah, cc, but in the general run of things you don't 'give' when the horse softens, you just don't take. There are certainly instances where you surrender the rein, or do a give and take, but let's talk basic trotting around. 

Let's say we're playing tug o' war (purists and pendants, look away now! ). If I hold against you I do it with as much pressure as necessary, starting with my hand, moving up to using my core. If you REALLY set against me I might use some 'half halts' to release a bit of the tension. Then, all of a sudden, you give. If I then lean forward at that moment, what happens to you? Face plant or on your *** most likely. But if I absorb the give in the rope, stay stable in my own body, and just follow your movement I will be able to help you stay on your feet. If I'm braced against you, then when you give I'm going down too, either face first, or backwards, pulling you over too. (Remember, you can let the rein slip, the horse NEVER can.) 

So when the horse gives, in that moment the balance is very fragile. If you move or throw the rein at the horse it will likely upset things. It's the HORSE giving that provides the release of pressure that acts as a reward. In fact this is hard to do and requires a lot of strength - it's very difficult to retain a soft, strong position through the horse resisting and then giving to the hand. Developing this stability is part of what top riders work out to achieve.

Good hands are an outgrowth of a stable base of support. As was said earlier, the first step is an independent hand not knowing what to 'do'.

It can be very useful to ask your instructor to hold the rein at the bit end and 'be the horse' not only to communicate the feel to you but also to find out how you feel to the horse.
		
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This is an incredibly good post.
Those people that do what TS describes naturally would probably never think about it too much.
I for years haven't done that naturally, my default has always been a subtle G&R when the horse gives. I've had a couple of lightbulb moments recently and now am starting to get that true feel!! Still a long way to go though


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## Caol Ila (20 September 2013)

Great posts (unsurprisingly) from TarrSteps.  

When I first learned to ride in the US, in the early 90s, everyone had white helmets.  Now black or coloured plastic is all the rage.


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## chestnut cob (20 September 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Ah, cc, but in the general run of things you don't 'give' when the horse softens, you just don't take. There are certainly instances where you surrender the rein, or do a give and take, but let's talk basic trotting around.
		
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Yes, you are right and maybe "give" is the wrong word to use - I don't mean "give" as in the horse gives so I drop the contact.  Although I do know I have a tendency to give the rein away when the horse softens.  Once I've realised I have a fault, I then tend to go too far in the opposite direction trying to correct it.  Am trying to find a happy medium!  In all the years I'v been riding and had horses, the person who teaches me now is the first one who's really been able to actually start to explain/teach the concept of "contact".  And yes, I agree about being stable/strong in your position.  We're doing a lot of work on my position, becoming more stable and generally working on all of the stuff in your post TS!  It's a constant learning curve and I am told that I'm improving, becoming more stable in both my body and the contact, so getting there I hope but no doubt still a VERY long way to!


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## Tnavas (20 September 2013)

JFTD said:



			I've never seen a 20 y/old photo from the UK where someone's wearing a white helmet though.  It must be a regional fashion to some extent?

I think it looks pretty cool, fwiw, just curious 

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It was a time when NZ helmet safety for the general rider led the way, they had these when I first came to NZ in 87 when we in UK were still riding in our velvet hats. Skull caps for jockeys were the only extra strength.

The NZ helmets were quite heavy and I only resorted to one when I had my velvet re covered at great expense as the NZ sun is fierce and faded it.

Today I have a velvet that is also much heavier than my old one, but it looks better than the white ones.


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## TarrSteps (20 September 2013)

I'm still confused though, what is it you're supposed to be 'doing' when the horse softens, other than sitting there and feeling pleased?  It will go away as soon as any part of the circle changes - which, in a greener horse is about 3 seconds! - so enjoy the moment while it lasts!


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## chestnut cob (20 September 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			I'm still confused though, what is it you're supposed to be 'doing' when the horse softens, other than sitting there and feeling pleased?  It will go away as soon as any part of the circle changes - which, in a greener horse is about 3 seconds! - so enjoy the moment while it lasts! 

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I think that's my problem.. i'm so pleased that the horse softens that I forget to ride for a minute then have to start all over again   Seriously, trying to stay still, not interfere, not drop him on his head, not give the rein away but not taking/ pulling either, trying not to let my shoulders slouch (another bad habit of mine), trying to steer, keep moving forwards, then trying to remember to breathe through all of this.  The more I learn about riding as I go alone, the more I realise how little I know and how much more there is to learn and the harder it all becomes!  My coordination and feel aren't the best, I'm only a leisure rider but getting in plenty of lessons and plenty of practise to work on what I'm learning, and hopefully improving as I go along.


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## Clava (20 September 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			I'm still confused though, what is it you're supposed to be 'doing' when the horse softens, other than sitting there and feeling pleased?  It will go away as soon as any part of the circle changes - which, in a greener horse is about 3 seconds! - so enjoy the moment while it lasts! 

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Exactly, my RI talks about "moments" and gradually those moments get longer and longer which is very satisfying.


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## TarrSteps (20 September 2013)

Cc, there are a lot of 'nots' in that paragraph!  Language is very powerful so try to think of what you want in positives not negatives. 

Don't believe me? Try not to think of cauliflower!


Bet that's all you can think of now! 

Things like feel are at least partly a mental game. Most of the people I know with naturally good hands are on the mellow end of the spectrum and quite direct generally. This comes through in their communication with horses - they don't fuss but they don't take **** either. This is a completely attainable skill set but for many people requires adjustment in the mental approach, not just the physical one.

Btw, I know you didn't ask and it sounds like you're sorted, it's just a side conversation to the main thread.


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## ann-jen (20 September 2013)

Back in the olden days when I learnt to ride all crash hats were white, admittedly covered up by a silk that was held in place by a ribbon that tied at the front. And generally the silk flew off halfway round a XC course and you proceeded round the course looking like a giant egg head lol


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## cptrayes (20 September 2013)

Wow, what fantastic advice we're getting on this thread now   Thanks to everyone for their great contributions.

ps can't stop thinking about cauliflower


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## chestnut cob (20 September 2013)

Thanks TS, now all I can think about is cauliflower!   I am very guilty of continually looking for and thinking of all the things I'm not doing, or when looking back at a schooling session, lesson or competition, only thinking about the things I didn't do or should have done/ done better.  I get told off in lessons for being too hard on myself and not thinking about/looking at the positive things I am doing and have achieved.  So yes, I do agree that mental attitude has a lot to do with it.  It's funny because at work, where I know I am good at my job and I achieve consistently good results, I am confident and don't get crises of confidence. It's only ever really my riding where I think "I can't do that" or "I'm no go at X", then i think it becomes a mental block.  

It's all an interesting conversation, always something to learn


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## Tnavas (20 September 2013)

ann-jen said:



			Back in the olden days when I learnt to ride all crash hats were white, admittedly covered up by a silk that was held in place by a ribbon that tied at the front. And generally the silk flew off halfway round a XC course and you proceeded round the course looking like a giant egg head lol
		
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They were jockey skull caps, and everyday riders wore a velvet cap. The ones in NZ were not, they were in place of the velvet cap.


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## TheMule (20 September 2013)

I love that feeling of the horse softening and just being there in your contact. Then you can sit up, smile and try to look elegant! For me, that's dressage.


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## ihatework (20 September 2013)

TheMule said:



			I love that feeling of the horse softening and just being there in your contact. Then you can sit up, smile and try to look elegant! For me, that's dressage.
		
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Sounds so simple doesn't it! And I agree, the best feeling and very addictive


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## TarrSteps (20 September 2013)

I think a lot of people struggle with the self-deprecating trap, too, in riding. They don't feel it's 'okay' to say they are 'good' at something. Or they rely on outside judgement only, which puts an immense pressure on instructors - who may only see a student a couple of hours a month, if that - to be guardians of self-esteem, not just educators. (And then get bashed on bulletin boards for not being able to make a dozen changes instantly or force people to improve.  )

The thing is, horses are all about honesty. They don't care about our hang ups. 

It's a useful exercise to look at photos/video and consciously pick out a few things you think you do WELL before you start on the improvements.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (20 September 2013)

ihatework said:



			Sounds so simple doesn't it! And I agree, the best feeling and very addictive 

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+1 it is what all those hours and blood, sweat and tears are for.....and it might only last 5 mins but there is no other feeling like it and makes it ALL worth it!


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## chestnut cob (20 September 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			It's a useful exercise to look at photos/video and consciously pick out a few things you think you do WELL before you start on the improvements.
		
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I've had myself videoed quite a bit recently, and had lots of pics taken.  I must say I was absolutely amazed.  I took the pony to camp at Somerford last month and tore myself to pieces over X and Y that was wrong with my jumping - sure I wasn't giving enough with my hands, wasn't helping out the horse enough, everything.  Then I watched the vids and looked at pics, and couldn't believe it was me in them.  I remember saying to someone "my god, I'm actually alright at this riding lark"


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## cobwithattitude (20 September 2013)

really inspirational thread and so agree with the self deprecating spiral that it is so easy to get into.  The toddler analogy and core stability is a brilliant analogy.  Thank you.  The Plank (off the horse!!) is a brill exercise for core stability.


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## TarrSteps (20 September 2013)

chestnut cob said:



			I've had myself videoed quite a bit recently, and had lots of pics taken.  I must say I was absolutely amazed.  I took the pony to camp at Somerford last month and tore myself to pieces over X and Y that was wrong with my jumping - sure I wasn't giving enough with my hands, wasn't helping out the horse enough, everything.  Then I watched the vids and looked at pics, and couldn't believe it was me in them.  I remember saying to someone "my god, I'm actually alright at this riding lark" 

Click to expand...


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## Jenni_ (20 September 2013)

This may just be a snapshot in time, but I pinched this from the 'cloning' thread.

Look- a dressage rider who doesn't have a perfect straight line from elbow to mouth! As I said it could just be a snapshot in time....


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## TarrSteps (20 September 2013)

So what does that prove? It's impossible to tell what is happening without context. Also, nobody is perfect all the time. In order to prove that a line broken downwards is correct, could you find, say, 3 shots of Charlotte like that, or maybe a shot of each of the top 10? If that is taken to be correct then why doesn't everyone at that level ride like that consistently?

I assume this goes to the earlier conversation re people critiquing other people's photographs. . .didn't we come to the conclusion that it's not really valid without context?


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## Jenni_ (20 September 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			So what does that prove? It's impossible to tell what is happening without context. Also, nobody is perfect all the time. In order to prove that a line broken downwards is correct, could you find, say, 3 shots of Charlotte like that, or maybe a shot of each of the top 10? If that is taken to be correct then why doesn't everyone at that level ride like that consistently?

I assume this goes to the earlier conversation re people critiquing other people's photographs. . .didn't we come to the conclusion that it's not really valid without context?
		
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Nonono!

What you've said above is EXACTLY what I was trying to say- that noone is perfect 100% of the time and folk need to stop looking at their bad points as much and focus on their good too, and that a picture doesn't always tell the full story.


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## TarrSteps (20 September 2013)

Cool. 

Sorry, I thought we were back to arguing.


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## WildRider (21 September 2013)

Jenni_ said:



			This may just be a snapshot in time, but I pinched this from the 'cloning' thread.

Look- a dressage rider who doesn't have a perfect straight line from elbow to mouth! As I said it could just be a snapshot in time....





Click to expand...

See, now looking at this photo has just raised a thought in my head - when riding with a snaffle, there is only one rein so the straight line that. 'should' be maintained is obvious. But as someone who is not yet riding with a double, does the straight line stay with the bridoon rein as though you are just using a snaffle, or should the straight line be maintained through the curb rein? I'd be very interested to know for future reference!! 

FWIW, reading back through the other posts about being too self-depreciating, it is always obvious that people should have as many lessons with a decent instructor as they can afford, yet the idea of people being video'd isn't put forward anywhere near enough (well pointed out TS as per usual).

I find it very useful to see video of myself (and the last time I did was very pleasantly surprised) not just from a moral perspective but also as useful feedback between lessons - but it's extremely rare that I can get an eye on the ground to stand there recording me in action. Definitely something that should be suggested more often though!!


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## TarrSteps (21 September 2013)

Straight line through the snaffle rein. The curb doesn't actually go to the mouth, but to a point some inches below the mouth.

In reality, it just kind of works out, as if the force is coming mainly down the curb rein you've probably got bigger problems than the elbow to mouth line. 

That is the thing about this whole conversation, it's not about 'correct' as in adheres to a random set of rules, it's correct as in functional and determined to be optimal for meeting long and short term goals. So you CAN fix your hands down and ride with a rigid, 'side rein' arm, of course you can. You might even get prizes for it!  But you will pay later in the development of the horse, way of going, strain on your own body etc etc.

This is the problem with 'independent learning' in riding. There a are all sorts of things that seem like a good idea at the time bot cause problems later. Also, there are alternative methods and systems which are equally valid. To some extent you learn by doing - there were scores of warnings I was given over the years I did not really believe until I saw the results for myself! - but it always seems more sensible to me to learn from other people's mistakes, rather than try to make them all yourself.


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## TarrSteps (21 September 2013)

And one last thing, before I go on holiday , re instruction. Two points have been mentioned. One is that the instructor may simply not know. He/she may have been getting away with it themselves. Or perhaps not understand the repercussions.

Two, the instructor may very well be going for the quick fix! Perhaps out of personal inclination, but perhaps because that's what the client seems to want. If you want the instructor to take the long term view you need to make that clear. Lots of riders don't want it, btw! Then there is the issue of prioritising areas to concentrate on  - change is hard and instructors understand you can't change everything at once! 

There are SO many good books on riding, I think it's worth knowing a bit about WHY you should do something, as often that explains why you would pick one path over another.

Just don't get too rigid.


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## siennamum (21 September 2013)

This thread has been interesting!!! what weird things are people being taught. 

There is an AI down the road from me, who encourages hands wide and low, she also has pupils who windlass and fiddle/pull back whilst riding horse aggressively into the contact, to get them to 'give' in the neck (presumably).
I don't really teach, don't have the time, but I have taken 2 of these former pupils & explained the difference between inside & outside rein. Told them the cast iron rule of straight line from elbow to bit - which really shows whether you have an independent seat!! In one case to stop horse from freaking when a contact was taken - it was so confused, all that was required was to move the inside hand up the horses neck and keep both hands quiet - sudden happy horse.
This long low nonsense has a lot to answer for IMO. Fine to let the horse stretch if it has worked hard, but if it isn't working over it's back when you are in a more uphill frame, then there is a problem, it doesn't have to be in a long frame to swing over the back surely.
Also while I am on a roll since when did you lower the hands to counteract a horse raising it's head. Surely when a horse pokes it's nose you raise the hands in response. Since when are the hands used to lower the head like that?


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## cptrayes (21 September 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			And one last thing, before I go on holiday , re instruction. Two points have been mentioned. One is that the instructor may simply not know. He/she may have been getting away with it themselves. Or perhaps not understand the repercussions.

Two, the instructor may very well be going for the quick fix! Perhaps out of personal inclination, but perhaps because that's what the client seems to want. If you want the instructor to take the long term view you need to make that clear. Lots of riders don't want it, btw! Then there is the issue of prioritising areas to concentrate on  - change is hard and instructors understand you can't change everything at once! 

There are SO many good books on riding, I think it's worth knowing a bit about WHY you should do something, as often that explains why you would pick one path over another.

Just don't get too rigid. 

Click to expand...


You've encapsulated there a major problem with intermittent training or starting with a new trainer. Most people, trainer and trained, want the lesson to be a really positive experience. Unfortunately, that often turns into staying within the existing boundaries of the horse and rider, and if you do that you can't actually make any progress.

I agree with the video comments, my video has been as much help as the two great trainers I've had and a lot more help than the fifteen useless ones 

Have a great holiday TS


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## cptrayes (21 September 2013)

I agree with you siennamum. Long and low is a warm up and cool down exercise for me. 

I really rated 'Twisted truths of modern dressage' and what Phillips Karl says about hands, though that could be a whole other thread 



The answer to 'since when' is that it seems to be worse since the Olympics, but that I believe it is being driven by dressage judges marking down preliminary horses whose noses are slightly in front of the vertical


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## WildRider (21 September 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Straight line through the snaffle rein. The curb doesn't actually go to the mouth, but to a point some inches below the mouth.

In reality, it just kind of works out, as if the force is coming mainly down the curb rein you've probably got bigger problems than the elbow to mouth line. 

That is the thing about this whole conversation, it's not about 'correct' as in adheres to a random set of rules, it's correct as in functional and determined to be optimal for meeting long and short term goals. So you CAN fix your hands down and ride with a rigid, 'side rein' arm, of course you can. You might even get prizes for it!  But you will pay later in the development of the horse, way of going, strain on your own body etc etc.

This is the problem with 'independent learning' in riding. There a are all sorts of things that seem like a good idea at the time bot cause problems later. Also, there are alternative methods and systems which are equally valid. To some extent you learn by doing - there were scores of warnings I was given over the years I did not really believe until I saw the result for myself! - but it always seems more sensible to me to learn from other people's mistakes, rather than try to make them all yourself. 

Click to expand...

This is exactly why I was asking!!  I couldn't see why it would be on the curb rein, but as the thought had popped into my head and I had the opportunity to ask I thought it made sense.


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## foxy1 (21 September 2013)

There's an interesting video on the horse hero site of a top German dressage trainer giving a lesson to a 4* event rider. The trainer asks the rider to get the horse lower and longer in the neck, the rider puts her hands low and either side of the wither and gets told not to do that but to ride the neck and back longer with her hand up. The trainer even says " why on earth do you think that low hands mean low neck?" Have to say the rider involved looks pretty fed up with the lesson! But horse looks much improved by the end.


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## Caol Ila (21 September 2013)

Then there is the way dressage shows are judged.  I don't know what happens at ones in Britain, but the issues "Dressage Curmudgeon" discusses in her blog entry here, which reflects what happens in Canada, certainly occur in the US as well.  http://dressagecurmudgeon.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/ms-v-versus-swifferour-first-show.html.

I bet that kind of thing encourages people to try to get their horses' noses down as quickly as humanly possible.


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## biggingerpony (21 September 2013)

I'm so guilty of this! My instructor is constantly yelling at me to carry my hands and have a natural bend of the elbow. When I see photos it  looks terrible... I know I'm doing it it's just trying to remember to do it! I blame too much happy hacking!!!


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## cptrayes (21 September 2013)

biggingerpony said:



			I'm so guilty of this! My instructor is constantly yelling at me to carry my hands and have a natural bend of the elbow. When I see photos it  looks terrible... I know I'm doing it it's just trying to remember to do it! I blame too much happy hacking!!!
		
Click to expand...

When you ride by yourself, one tip is to put a whip under your thumbs, then it's impossible to do it


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## MagicMelon (21 September 2013)

I've always ridden with low hands.  Not sure why, I think simply because nobody ever told me otherwise!  I only realised at age 20 after being yelled at "LIFT YOUR HANDS" every 2 mins by a very very abrupt Dutch dressage trainer... I still cannot train myself to hold them higher, just feels totally wrong which I guess it would after 26 years of riding like this!


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## spookypony (21 September 2013)

Oh that's funny. Thanks for posting that link!



Caol Ila said:



			Then there is the way dressage shows are judged.  I don't know what happens at ones in Britain, but the issues "Dressage Curmudgeon" discusses in her blog entry here, which reflects what happens in Canada, certainly occur in the US as well.  http://dressagecurmudgeon.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/ms-v-versus-swifferour-first-show.html.

I bet that kind of thing encourages people to try to get their horses' noses down as quickly as humanly possible.
		
Click to expand...


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## Mike007 (21 September 2013)

Jenni_ said:



			This may just be a snapshot in time, but I pinched this from the 'cloning' thread.

Look- a dressage rider who doesn't have a perfect straight line from elbow to mouth! As I said it could just be a snapshot in time....





Click to expand...

If the contact is light enough a perfect straight line cannot happen . The weight of the rein will make it adopt a curve and to maximise the effect of the give and take at the riders elbow it would be necessary to drop the hand sightly to follow that curve.
     I was taught originaly to flex my wrists inwards as if holding a book ,as this gives a very sensetive "feel" to the contact with the mouth. I frequently get slated for this turning inwards of my thumbs.
     As for slippery rein syndrome ,(which I am particularly aflicted by ). I am not a dressage rider and have probably only ridden a handfull of tests in the last 30 years,but there is one thing I am bloody good at ,pistol shooting. One fundamental point about good pistol shooting is the muscle control of the arm and hand. There is a basic principle that you cannot apply heavy forces and light forces through the sets of  muscles at the same time. It is ,for example , not going to work ,if you try to grip the butt of the pistol hard ,and work a "hair" trigger with your finger. The same will apply to gripping the reins , a light soft arm,cannot grip a rein hard and frustrating as it is to have the reins snatched from your hands ,as Tarr Steps pointed out, We can slip the reins ,the horse cannot.


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## TPO (22 September 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			There are SO many good books on riding, I think it's worth knowing a bit about WHY you should do something, as often that explains why you would pick one path over another
		
Click to expand...

Just in case you are still here... What books do you recommend? Thanks


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## Tnavas (22 September 2013)

Mike007 said:



			If the contact is light enough a perfect straight line cannot happen . The weight of the rein will make it adopt a curve and to maximise the effect of the give and take at the riders elbow it would be necessary to drop the hand sightly to follow that curve.
     I was taught originaly to flex my wrists inwards as if holding a book ,as this gives a very sensetive "feel" to the contact with the mouth. I frequently get slated for this turning inwards of my thumbs.
     As for slippery rein syndrome ,(which I am particularly aflicted by ). I am not a dressage rider and have probably only ridden a handfull of tests in the last 30 years,but there is one thing I am bloody good at ,pistol shooting. One fundamental point about good pistol shooting is the muscle control of the arm and hand. There is a basic principle that you cannot apply heavy forces and light forces through the sets of  muscles at the same time. It is ,for example , not going to work ,if you try to grip the butt of the pistol hard ,and work a "hair" trigger with your finger. The same will apply to gripping the reins , a light soft arm,cannot grip a rein hard and frustrating as it is to have the reins snatched from your hands ,as Tarr Steps pointed out, We can slip the reins ,the horse cannot.
		
Click to expand...

Mike, if there is a soft loop in the rein then there is no true contact.

The straight line elbow hand horses mouth is the only way to go, as the moment the hand is higher or lower leverage exists.

The lightness/heaviness of the contact depends on the softness and suppleness of the riders arms and shoulders, the ability to soften or tighten the fist and the reaction of the rider to any movement the horse makes in his carriage.

Turning the wrist or lifting the hand brings into play muscles in the arm which lead to resistance. To have truly soft hands and contact the arm should only be bent at the elbow, with the wrist straight.


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## Holding (22 September 2013)

This whole thread has been very interesting - I definitely ride with my hands far too low and it is a habit I am trying very hard to break. For me, it goes hand in hand (pun definitely intended) with having open fingers. I don't lean forward at all, but I do allow the reins to slip through my fingers, meaning that the only way I can then maintain a contact is to create a greater distance between my hands and the horse's mouth by making them lower and wider. If anyone has any helpful tips/advice re: keeping your elbows soft and carrying your hands (other than just: do it) I would be very interested to hear it.


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## Mike007 (22 September 2013)

I do understand what you are saying however I was not refering to a "soft loop "in the reins . When a rein is held ,its weigh exerts a force at both ends , the rein will tend to adopt a curve, pulling hard on the rein will straighten that curve ,but will also exert a greater force on the bit. I guess it all comes down to how heavy a contact you want ,or believe to be correct in a given set of circumstances.


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## PucciNPoni (22 September 2013)

Mike007 said:



			As for slippery rein syndrome ,(which I am particularly aflicted by ). I am not a dressage rider and have probably only ridden a handfull of tests in the last 30 years,but there is one thing I am bloody good at ,pistol shooting. One fundamental point about good pistol shooting is the muscle control of the arm and hand. There is a basic principle that you cannot apply heavy forces and light forces through the sets of  muscles at the same time. It is ,for example , not going to work ,if you try to grip the butt of the pistol hard ,and work a "hair" trigger with your finger. The same will apply to gripping the reins , a light soft arm,cannot grip a rein hard and frustrating as it is to have the reins snatched from your hands ,as Tarr Steps pointed out, We can slip the reins ,the horse cannot.
		
Click to expand...

It's my understanding that soft hands is a bit of a misnomer - that it's really soft elbows one should be achieving?  Or have I got that all wrong?  The reins are held in the hand firm enough so they can't slip, as if holding a child's hand when crossing a street.  But the elbows are soft and giving.

As for hand height....I have been taught to give a young / green horse a low and wide tube to find his frame in.  I don't do much with young horses, so perhaps this is a misinterpretation.  However, with my more experienced horse I will give low hands to stretch over the back - and for uphill work my hands are in that "book reading" position.  It is perhaps not a straight line from elbow to mouth.


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## Tnavas (22 September 2013)

PucciNPoni said:



			It's my understanding that soft hands is a bit of a misnomer - that it's really soft elbows one should be achieving?  Or have I got that all wrong?  The reins are held in the hand firm enough so they can't slip, as if holding a child's hand when crossing a street.  But the elbows are soft and giving.

As for hand height....I have been taught to give a young / green horse a low and wide tube to find his frame in.  I don't do much with young horses, so perhaps this is a misinterpretation.  However, with my more experienced horse I will give low hands to stretch over the back - and for uphill work my hands are in that "book reading" position.  It is perhaps not a straight line from elbow to mouth.
		
Click to expand...

Your sort of right, if there is no softness in the elbow then the arm resists, it has to move as if part of the rein. Soft hands are also important, the tension of the closure of the fist does affect the softness 
of the whole contact. A tight fist will tighten the muscle in the upper arm, causing a block, such as in a half halt.

I often hear people being told to 'give and take' where infact it is better to say 'take and return' then the rider doesn't throw away the contact.


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