# Show Jumping - Behind closed doors?



## Lucyann89 (21 November 2009)

Good morning all,

I rarely use this forum for posting but I do read posts quite regularly. Over the past couple weeks I have been hearing more about 'quick' and often cruel ways in which show jumpers, including top ones and the novice owner, train their horses. For example wrapping, weighted boots and a recent dispute about draw reins (after ellen was pictured using them in H&amp;H).

Just out of interest I was curious to see what your personal experiences may be, what else do show jumpers do to 'improve' their horses, and what stories have you heard or experienced first hand with top SJs and their ways? I'm at Hartpury based on the equine academy and I always hear about fellow students who have worked for top SJs and their stories! What really does go on behind closed doors out of the show ground?!


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## flyingfeet (21 November 2009)

Sounds like you are just on here to cause trouble?

Weighted boots are not cruel and are used to improve hind leg flick, as are shaped boots which squeeze the tendons. 

I think as with EVERY discipline there are people that use dubious methods, however the ones getting the results have horses that want to jump. 

I have two full brothers, one cares about show jumping and really tries to leave them up, the other doesn't. There is no method to fix the one that doesn't enjoy it!


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## Persephone (21 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
 For example wrapping, weighted boots and a recent dispute about draw reins (after ellen was pictured using them in H&amp;H). 

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrapping sounds rather cosy to me


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## Lucyann89 (21 November 2009)

to cause trouble?! I'm not quite sure how you got that but that is not correct at all. I am just curious as to other peoples experiences in this area, as a show jumper myself but very inexperienced in comparison to other members on here. 

I did not state my opinion on what is cruel or not, many of my friends use weighted and pinch boots, although I personally do not, due to the fact I don't think I need them rather than I think they are cruel.


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## Guinness (21 November 2009)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/article.php?aid=278262


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## CalllyH (21 November 2009)

rapping i think you mean?


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## Lucyann89 (21 November 2009)

Sorry sp. mistake


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## Munchkin (21 November 2009)

Lucyann, this forum (particularly NL) is full of pink and fluffy people who don't like anything said against equestrian sport and prefer to turn a blind eye to any cruelty that occurs (thus allowing it to continue).  I posted a similar thread recently re cruelty in showing and most of the showing fraternity immediately stepped up to deny/defend it.  Just warning you to expect a backlash 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Personally I haven't seen much of what you described go on, but I think I've been very lucky as I was introduced to SJ through a very well known family who have a genuine regard for their horse's welfare.  However, I am fully aware this is not always the case, particularly where horses are produced to be sold on.

The worst I have seen first hand is weighted boots (used in warm up) and steel reinforced nosebands on strong jumping ponies.  Never seen spiked boots or rapping but I have no doubt it still occurs on some yards.

You can often tell a lot by the reaction of a horse in the ring when it stops/hits a fence.  Some don't react at all, others panic.

I too would be interested to hear about what still goes on... I think it's important these things are not brushed under the carpet.


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## MagicMelon (21 November 2009)

I do a bit of BSJA (mainly BE) and to be honest I don't see much of this but then again I only see pro's etc. at the event itself - I have no idea what they do on their own yards.  I don't really hear about it either.  I don't agree with any nasty methods.  I dont believe weighted boots are nasty however I dont agree with them full stop as I think they are a cheat.


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## hedgehog1 (21 November 2009)

I hear alot from 'behind the scenes' as it were, and most of them are just strict but fair and dont do anything to their horses that would make you go 'oh my god thats terrible'.

But there are a few names (literally i mean only 1 or 2) that keep cropping up time and time again,  who do disgusting things. and im definatley not soft but some of it is downright sick.


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## Lucyann89 (21 November 2009)

Munchkin - thank you!
I shall name a few of the stories I have seen first hand or heard. I don't condone any of these myself and am very old fashioned hard work and practise make perfect.

Weighted boots/pinch boots - a lot of my friends use these and through my degree I have done quite a few research projects looking at past published papers on these. Showing they do work however as GigglePig posted on her link..recent research show that they could be harmful to the horse. 

Rapping I have seen whilst visiting a professionals yard whilst I was visiting a friend who works there. I've heard stories of other event/SJ professionals using this method with bamboo canes, steel poles, rubbing chemicals on horses' clipped legs.

Spiked boots and draw pins in horses grackle nosebands for strong horses etc.


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## ester (21 November 2009)

Munchkin its the most unfluffy forum I know! 

OP, never been involved so don't know sorry.


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## Onyxia (21 November 2009)

I have only worked in riding schools and livery yards,so personal eperiance is of people who work damn hard to keep their horses well and worry themselves half to death when something does go wrong.
Private owners do whatever sport they choose for fun though,and I can understand there must be a lot of pressure on pro's (and probably even more trying to become a pro) to get results at any costs 
	
	
		
		
	


	




An ex is a course builder and he told me some horrific things that go on/went on behind the scenes 
	
	
		
		
	


	




I sincerly hope I never come across any of the things he mentioned as much as I hope those that do report wrong doing to the powers that be and as dressage gas with Rollkur(sp?) bring questionable practise to the fore so that it can be debated and banned/endorsed as apropriate.


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## Ladylina83 (21 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Rapping I have seen whilst visiting a professionals yard whilst I was visiting a friend who works there. I've heard stories of other event/SJ professionals using this method with bamboo canes, steel poles, rubbing chemicals on horses' clipped legs.

Spiked boots and draw pins in horses grackle nosebands for strong horses etc. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Excuse this daft but genuine question but what is this said to achive ? 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Especially the chemicals - I'm confuddled!


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## LadyRascasse (21 November 2009)

My YO who is a SJer, only uses hard work to get hers jumping well, and talks to other SJers to see what works for them if she is having problems. the most common things she uses are canter poles and v poles. i have never seen or heard of her doing anything untoward to get her horses to jump. she just works bloody hard and varies there workload so they don't get bored.


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## Munchkin (21 November 2009)

Presumably to make them more sensitive if they knock them? Just guessing though.

Ester - doesn't say much for the others


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## SpottedCat (21 November 2009)

I'd love to know how bamboo canes could be used in a manner which is considered cruel to make a horse jump better - please can someone enlighten me? (serious question)


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## xspiralx (21 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
 I'd love to know how bamboo canes could be used in a manner which is considered cruel to make a horse jump better - please can someone enlighten me? (serious question) 

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I have previously heard it is one way that is used to rap horses. The pole of the fence stays at the same height but the bamboo stick is lifted to rap the horse's legs as it jumps.


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## gerbilgirl (21 November 2009)

Sorry but if people are going to rap they will use something a lot stronger than a bamboo cane. Either the jump pole itself or a metal pole. Rapping is fairly common around pony showjumping in my experience...


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## xspiralx (21 November 2009)

You don't need to be patronising - I am not saying that is the only way people rap horses, just that it is one way I have heard people doing it. Bamboo might not be thick or heavy but its thin enough to sting if its whipped upwards at a horse's legs over a jump.


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## Munchkin (21 November 2009)

gerbilgirl - are you prepared to name and shame?  Only I was heavily involved in pony show jumping for a number of years and never saw or heard about rapping once, so I'd be interested to know...


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## Scheherezade (21 November 2009)

Bamboo is slightly different to ordinary rapping, as instead of lifting the pole up you smack the horses legs hard and fast to hurt.


Not that I have ever done it - but I have been on a SJres yard who has done it, but used piping instead of bamboo canes.


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## Onyxia (21 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
You don't need to be patronising - I am not saying that is the only way people rap horses, just that it is one way I have heard people doing it. Bamboo might not be thick or heavy but its thin enough to sting if its whipped upwards at a horse's legs over a jump. 

[/ QUOTE ]
TBH Spiral I would imagine something thin and light whipping the leg would hurt more then a bump over alarge area.
Just think how much a branch whipping back hurts if it catchs you,but knocking you leg on a low pole is only a little sure for a short while.

Obviously horses feel things differently,but I would assume horses would feel the sharp pain as worse then the dull pain too.


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## dieseldog (21 November 2009)

Lucyann - do you work for The Daily Mail?

It just sounds like you are trying to write a sensational newspaper article.


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## lannerch (21 November 2009)

Except the daily mail will not be interested as they only print stories with no truth whatso ever!


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## PapaFrita (21 November 2009)

I work for a SJer and he doesn't rap, or use weighted boots, or drawing pins or any of the practices you describe. I know rapping DOES go on, but it's widely accepted that it does not suit all horses and must be done with great care. It's FAR more common for a rider to ride his/her horse deep into the fence to encourage it to be more snappy with its forelegs.


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## Gingerwitch (22 November 2009)

Last one i heard of, was electric poles - it covers up some of the obvious over rapped double leg sanp's but is equally as effective.


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## PapaFrita (22 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Last one i heard of, was electric poles - it covers up some of the obvious over rapped double leg sanp's but is equally as effective. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, sorry, me no comprende how it works 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Not that I advocate in any way.


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## Ranyhyn (22 November 2009)

The thing that I don't get with rapping, is surely if the horse really associates the jump with pain - it'd be hard to get them near it?

I have had clumsly horses in the past who have constantly, lazilly hit their legs on wooden poles and .... nope... never made them more careful.

I guess my point is I don't know if rapping with a pole can entirely be considered cruel as some horses actually continually do it to themselves.  Well my lazy git did.


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## Dotilas (22 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Last one i heard of, was electric poles - it covers up some of the obvious over rapped double leg sanp's but is equally as effective. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, sorry, me no comprende how it works 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Not that I advocate in any way. 

[/ QUOTE ]

My "friend" was adament she was sending her horse to a very well known british SJer who was going to electrocute her horse's legs because it was careless with its legs.


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## Munchkin (22 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
My "friend" was adament she was sending her horse to a very well known british SJer who was going to electrocute her horse's legs because it was careless with its legs. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, name?  Why are we protecting these people?

One of mine went through a phase of four-fault-itis.  He'd never jump any higher than he had to, no matter what the height of the class was.  He'd "slither" over each fence, making for very heart-in-mouth spectating!  

We tried taking him XC to encourage him to be more careful; didn't work as he knew he could slither all he liked there and nothing would fall.  Then we realised he only ever hit ONE fence a day, and he touched them all, so why did he then stop slithering?  He must hear the fence fall behind him!

So, when he was next in the ring, we'd pop him over the practice fence one more time, and as he landed, gently pull on the wing so that the pole fell.  He'd hear it, go into the ring and jump clear.

Cruelty is not necessary


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## Ranyhyn (22 November 2009)

I guess because no-one likes a tell-tale.


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## Munchkin (22 November 2009)

A shame, when it's the horse's welfare at stake.  Some people's priorities are a little misguided.


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## Ranyhyn (22 November 2009)

Out of interest what do you suppose would happen if someone named someone?


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## Munchkin (22 November 2009)

Reputation proceeds people in equestrian sport - almost everything at the top is done by word of mouth rather than by advertisement.

Also, if I mentioned to someone that I was sending my horse to a well known rider and they'd heard said rider electricuted his horses' legs, I'm quite sure I'd rethink... and pass on that info to others.


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## Ranyhyn (22 November 2009)

Maybe, nevertheles you can't just go bandying about peoples names on the internet - haven't you heard of libel and slander?  Rightly or wrongly I very much doubt you'll get anyone to name anyone, so I suggest you stop baying for blood because its wasting your breath.


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## lannerch (22 November 2009)

Additionally this thread would just vanish!

And then what would be the point of naming.


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## PapaFrita (22 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Last one i heard of, was electric poles - it covers up some of the obvious over rapped double leg sanp's but is equally as effective. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, sorry, me no comprende how it works 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Not that I advocate in any way. 

[/ QUOTE ]

My "friend" was adament she was sending her horse to a very well known british SJer who was going to electrocute her horse's legs because it was careless with its legs. 

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't get how that would work either. I'd've thought contact with a pole when jumping would be too fleeting, presumably, to get a shock...


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## ihatework (22 November 2009)

A few years back I did a summers work for someone, who at the time was a fairly big name in sj (not the very top but pretty big), nations cup, big hickstead classes, international travel etc.

Draw reins (including jumping in them) were routine. The odd spur rub also routine.
But I never once witnessed any rapping or other such techniques used. In fact the horses, once established, were rarely jumped at home.

I wouldn't doubt there is a small minority where these underhand practices occur, but to be honest they are probably grasping at straws and trying to make up for their shortfalls as a rider.

Pro's need their horses to jump well for them because the horse wants to. Once you resort to bullying tactics the horse will loose faith in rider and never do the job. Any horseman worth his salt would know this. The rest just ruin their horses.


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## natinthehat (22 October 2012)

well i use pinch boots in the hind and they don't actually hurt the horse. they work on pressure points. i only ever use them right before going into the show ring. and for rapping i think it could be a useful method but should never be practiced by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. Then it could very easily make things worse. My outlook on things if you have a careful horse that you're showing in the big grand prix classes, but he/she could jump a little better, then use some sort of tool to make them even better such as pinch/weighted boots. if you are spending that large of an entry fee for a grand prix. you want your horse to be on its best performance.

sorry for my poor grammar


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## Enfys (22 October 2012)

Munchkin said:



			Lucyann, this forum (particularly NL) is full of pink and fluffy people .
		
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HHO?  Fluffy?  

 I think you could call the members of this forum most things but fluffy is not a word that comes readily to my mind. 


OP, I think show jumping will be the same as anything else, where there is money to be made then practices will not always be 'above board' shall we say? Everyone has heard about rapping, and the bottle tops, hedgehog skins, spikes on poles etc - what truth there is I have no idea as I have never worked in SJ. 

I have, however, worked in showing circles, and I can tell you that what goes on behind closed doors is not always pretty.


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## Spotsrock (22 October 2012)

Someone said you tell a lot by reaction of horse when it stops. My mare panics after a refusal and is hard work to hold. I have never used pinch or weighted boots. Never rapped never hit her yet she panics. She loves to jump and stops rarely but dirty. All my previous instructors have wanted me to hit her for refusing but given her panic I don't see how it would help. A friend's mare used to knock up cricket scores just rolling poles.  It's had weighted and pinch boots. No longer uses them and it now Jumps lovely fast clears and looks to really enjoy itself.


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## cyberhorse (22 October 2012)

^^^ Spot on, this is why a lot of showjumpers will not rap or play tricks on their horses, obviously there are exceptions to this. Eventually most rapped horses turn into dirty stoppers at which point they can't be sold to amateurs as reliable but not careful enough. Our yard is a SJ yard and no horse is "carefulled up" in the extreme ways that have been described, if it is not good enough (careful) it is sold to a suitable home and another horse bred or bought. Also do not underestimate the number of people who are novice/amateurs and want to send the horse to a SJ yard for this treatment - they get extremely annoyed when professionals refuse to go along with it.

Some of the tricks I am aware of are clipping legs and applying deep heat/astringents, heavily weighted boots (light ones within BSJA rules do help some horses with awareness at the back without being cruel if put on correctly), ramming wings at an angle to ensure the poles can't come off, extremely weighted poles when loose jumping, false ground lines, false rails, sprung poles, stick rapping, internally sharp boots, tack fitted in such a way it causes pain.

I have a horse that was with a top UK showjumper in which time he won a lot of money. He also displays all the classic signs of a rapped horse. Happy at a show, very suspicious at home and when loose jumped, total tantrum if someone is standing next to a fence (makes for hellish collecting ring warm ups). A good example would be yesterday when he was asked to trot to a 40cm cross pole (normally fine), cue total nervous breakdown as all the other fences on the menage where full up. Obviously to me I just wanted to warm up, to him it must be a trick, as when we where working in another horse was jumping that fence as a large parallel. Same goes if you are loose jumping and drop the height of the fence. Open water he has been taught to jump by showing him the fence and then sneaking the water sheet in on his way round - he is far less spooky if there is water behind a low fence. 

He is a wonderful horse who will only ever have one pole, he'll never have another and bust a gut to keep clear with no pressure at all from me. As someone else suggested earlier the best way with these is to tap a pole down in the collecting ring if they are in a tap happy mood (and I even do this with extreme caution and ensure he has given it a good rattle). No other tricks are necessary the horse is careful enough to care. He has been with me 4 years and we have worked on many trust issues and he is now very honest, but as yesterday has reminded me he'll always have issues that crop up - scenarios he remembers that I don't know about. I would never again buy a horse I thought had been rapped or tricked in any way, they are pretty stressful to jump as very unpredictable.


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## mcnaughty (22 October 2012)

Many years ago I witnessed rapping in the warm up area of Olympia - we are talking 25 years or so ago!  Don't expect they do it in full view of everyone now!  I also was talking to a top physio last week while she treated my mare and she told me that chilli paste was used amongst other things to "sensitise" the legs.


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## Mithras (22 October 2012)

I showjump at a lot of BS shows, know a lot of showjumpers, and have worked and tried horses at various yards at various times when I might have been expected to have seen anything that might have been hidden.  I'm also a lawyer and legal academic.  And I have never seen anything along the lines that the OP is suggesting.  True there are a small handful of competitors who are known to be a bit rough, and some yards, particularly one on the continent and those associated with it, that have a dodgy reputation (in terms of doping).  But most showjumpers I know who do it for a living (ie combine it with dealing/teaching) really spoil their horses and treat them sympathetically.  Basically most horses won't jump, or try hard, unless they have a good relationship with their rider.  You need them to produce that little bit extra sometimes when you make a mistake, and they won't do that if they hate the rider.  So ill treatment is totally counter-productive.  

What you don't get is the type of rider who ruins horses by treating them like fluffy toys, giving them mixed messages and spoiling them and then claiming their horse is "difficult".  

There is far, far more ill treatment of horses by your average non-competitive rider.  I actually think its more of a case of attention seeking and slightly hystrionic, in that they are revealing some great secret that the rest of us mere mortals don't know about.

I've never used weighted boots for training, but I don't think they're particularly cruel.  And draw reins are used by people in many disciplines, why would you pick them out as being cruel as opposed to someone yanking a pony club pony in the mouth in a snaffle?  As for rapping, most showjumpers want a horse that hates to hit a pole, if you had to spend training sessions with two other people hoisting a pole around, you'd not only end up with a horse too nervous to jump and likely to hit things, but you'd be quicker just buying one of the many horses that doesn't like to hit a pole and concentrate on encouraging its bascule, shape and form over the fence. 

I've got a 5 year old that hasn't jumped much but hates to hit a pole and already has many double clears BSJA.  He wasn't particularly expensive and is not unusual.  Hes certainly never been rapped.  Its more common for a horse to dislike hitting poles than to be careless, if not, you wouldn't bother paying the extry fees for BSJA!

I suggest you go down to your average DIY livery yard and poke around there for dubious malpractices, where you might actually find something more worth directing your attention to - but not perhaps so much smoke without fire for yourself?


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## Mithras (22 October 2012)

ihatework said:



			Draw reins (including jumping in them) were routine. The odd spur rub also routine.
But I never once witnessed any rapping or other such techniques used. In fact the horses, once established, were rarely jumped at home.
		
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Thats the truth.  Most showjumpers don't do a lot of jumping at home once the horse is established.  Horses only have so many jumps in them.  And to get them established, if you did half the stuff "whispered" about on here, you'd only end up creating a nervous stopper.  

As for electrocuting the horse's legs, I think that would possibly defy the laws of physics...


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## Jenni_ (22 October 2012)

Mega Post Bump 

I've worked with a pretty well known showjumper... And NEVER seen anything like the OP is describing. 

Horses came to him, if they liked jumping then he worked with them... if they didn't want to jump then they weren't forced and another career was found for them.

The odd growl and a smack for the lazy ones but no rapping etc.


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## Blitzen (22 October 2012)

Mithras - cannot quote as I'm on my phone, but my thoughts exactly r.e. Laws of physics! The birds that sit on the electricity pylon wires don't feel a thing, so a horse in mid-air with no "earth" isn't going to feel anything off an electified pole either, is he? Unless its some kind of device similar to an electric shock dog collar, and they give a well timed zap??? I have no idea. Whatever it is, its a dirty trick. Like rapping, and sharp/spiked poles. There's no better way of teaching a horse to be wary of jumping than to employ these methods IMO.

(PS. This thread is ancient! Its a zombie thread - its been brought back from the dead!  )


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## Equilibrium Ireland (22 October 2012)

Most SJ people I've been around also won't "make" a horse a jumper by any means necessary because it doesn't work.

I sent my homebred mare away to a local pro a couple of years ago. I'm very suspicious of people so I was pretty much there everyday and after work is when my mare trained. I just felt she'd be better off with a pro than myself. It had been a long time since I was jumping ect. For the most part riding wise things were ok until the mare started going up in height. Thing is Abba will take on anything no matter how wrong she meets it. Very rarely had 4 faults and on her worse day she had 8. Both times trying to get her rider out of the jam he got her into. She beats herself up terribly if she hits one. She really is very careful. 

I watched this guy riding other horses and riding wasn't an issue. I later learned, thankfully, not on Abba, that he has a fierce temper. I was seeing odd injuries that didn't add up to the story. When I saw with my own eyes what this person was capable of, he was never allowed near her again. He's out of the country now and really never needs to set up on his own again. 

At any rate, she was a hot mess to begin with when starting her back. Thing is I had some life changes this year and other things going on so it meant no jumping but it also gave me the time to school her properly and for me to be the better rider she needs. So not too upset at the end of the day. 

This mare will never stop and she gives 110% all the time. She gets upset if she doesn't know what your asking and over tries then. So maybe I am a fluffy bunny but I will always give her the benefit of the doubt in anything she does for me. I've had her since birth. I know her. 

I've worked for one of the best in America. Never ever saw anything devious. I don't personally use weighted boots. I don't need to. I don't rap or use any tricks. They can either jump or not. But there are horses that do enjoy jumping. I face Abba towards anything and she never questions, she just says, don't worry I've got this. No point in gadgets or in ruining what she already has. I could ruin that quite easy by overfacing her or in my not being so confident. Anyway, just don't paint all SJ's with the same brush. 

Terri


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## Mithras (22 October 2012)

Laura-C said:



			Mithras - cannot quote as I'm on my phone, but my thoughts exactly r.e. Laws of physics! The birds that sit on the electricity pylon wires don't feel a thing, so a horse in mid-air with no "earth" isn't going to feel anything off an electified pole either, is he? Unless its some kind of device similar to an electric shock dog collar, and they give a well timed zap??? I have no idea. Whatever it is, its a dirty trick. Like rapping, and sharp/spiked poles. There's no better way of teaching a horse to be wary of jumping than to employ these methods IMO.

(PS. This thread is ancient! Its a zombie thread - its been brought back from the dead!  )
		
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Ah, it'll be the post-HOYS jealousy thread then...


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## Allover (22 October 2012)

There are "dubious" (and downright cruel) practices that go on on a regular basis on the majority of SJ yards i have been on. From lack of basic care to kicking the crap out of the animal for non comliance. 

One of our "top" SJs indoor school is also known as the "torture chamber". Another of our top boys has "invented" the most innovative way of strapping a horses head down which involves 2 stirrup leathers attached from girth to head which allows them no upwards movement (he advises that it be used by fairly novice riders). Horses are regularly ridden (on all the SJ yards i have visited) in draw reins by people who have absolutely no idea how to ride in them, causing the horses massive discomfort. Has anyone had a good look in a bit box on a SJ yard? Bike chains, thin wires etc etc. 

I have also witnessed electric spurs, "burning" products, spiked boots, weighted boots (anyone who thinks they are not a problem to use should have a look at a horse that reacts to them badly and the damage they can do to a horses confidence). Horses that stop while away at a show comes out the next day at home and is presented to a fence it has no hope of jumping and gets a beating for stopping. Sore/cut mouths, spur marks (i am talking scabbed over here too) seem to be the norm. The list goes on and on.

I often wonder why people are in the "sport" and how they sleep at night.


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## fburton (22 October 2012)

hedgehog1 said:



			... most of them are just strict but fair and dont do anything to their horses that would make you go 'oh my god thats terrible'.
		
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Interested to know what you mean by 'strict'...



natinthehat said:



			well i use pinch boots in the hind and they don't actually hurt the horse. they work on pressure points.
		
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What actually happens when the pressure points are 'worked on'? What does the horse feel and how does he react?


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## jeeve (22 October 2012)

well I would rather not compete, or come last than have to resort to this kind of thing, what satisfaction can there be in winning, if this is how you win?


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## POLLDARK (22 October 2012)

BoolavogueDC said:



			Maybe, nevertheles you can't just go bandying about peoples names on the internet - haven't you heard of libel and slander?  Rightly or wrongly I very much doubt you'll get anyone to name anyone, so I suggest you stop baying for blood because its wasting your breath.
		
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You can only be done for libel or slander if the accusation is untrue. Where money or prestige is involved I think some of the human race are capable of anything. Call me cynical if you like


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## pip6 (22 October 2012)

Personally I'm not into SJ, but even I know of cruel practises here & abroad. SJ is not alone, there are the minority in all forms of sport who will abuse to win. When my youngster needed backing this year I sent her to a local pro SJ. He is the most beautiful, sympathetic rider & did a great job. He may not be a 'big name', but I'd recommend him to anyone who wanted their horse to SJ with kindness & compassion by a competitive rider.

I teach judo, which includes teaching some self-defense. I show moves to put pressure (usually very gently) on pressure points. How does it feel? Ruddy painful!


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## Oldenburg27 (22 October 2012)

I dont think its very fair to just say it's showjumper's that do things like this. I have heard some awful thing's what people do in showing, Dressage. My thaught's are if a horse has to be pushed/ forced to do something then they should not doing what ever they are doing. And I dont mean just giving your horse a bit of tough love when they are being naughty.

I would never ever do anything like this to any of my horses.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (22 October 2012)

This thread is 3yrs old :/


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## HeresHoping (22 October 2012)

Hmm...old thread or not...I know of quite a few incidences at the top.  Not very recent ones, but some quite recent.

A certain SJer beat the living daylights out of a mare I had (when she was with her previous owners) with a piece of hose because she wouldn't load.  Same person killed a horse by beating it with a hose across its hindquarters.  Horse was fidgeting on concrete, fly kicked, SJer always carried piece of hose and walloped horse.  Horse jumped, slipped and fell on the concrete and crushed its ribcage.

Hedgehog skins on jump poles, anyone?  Chilli paste on shaved skin?

Rapping, oh yes...

Oh, and the whip with the mini taser in the end.


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## Amymay (22 October 2012)

natinthehat said:



			well i use pinch boots in the hind and they don't actually hurt the horse. they work on pressure points. i only ever use them right before going into the show ring. and for rapping i think it could be a useful method but should never be practiced by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. Then it could very easily make things worse. My outlook on things if you have a careful horse that you're showing in the big grand prix classes, but he/she could jump a little better, then use some sort of tool to make them even better such as pinch/weighted boots. if you are spending that large of an entry fee for a grand prix. you want your horse to be on its best performance.
		
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Well, you're special......


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## Renvers (22 October 2012)

amymay said:



			Well, you're special......
		
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Like


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## ClobellsandBaubles (22 October 2012)

I have worked on  SJ yard abroad and did not see any of this at all. It was a family run business and a rather lovely set up really. 
There were the odd eyebrow raising tack choices at some of the shows held there but no more than your average PC show.
The new manager also has a liking for using draw reins without reins as well . Don't want to get ino that debate it just seems to me to have not improved the youngsters way of going at all that proper work  schooling would not have done much better

At a few shows I have noticed the odd pro disapear to the lorry park when a horse is really playing up and deal with it in a way I would think of as a bit OTT but others may call firm.


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## fburton (22 October 2012)

Cloball said:



			At a few shows I have noticed the odd pro disapear to the lorry park when a horse is really playing up and deal with it in a way I would think of as a bit OTT but others may call firm.
		
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And yet others may call abusive.


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## Tinsel Town (22 October 2012)

Good grief what a lot of horrible things that are done to these poor horses. Anyone using methods like this should be ashamed of themselves and shouldn't be riding IMO! I mean for goodness sake all in the name of winning. What about putting the animal first?!?!


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## Charem (22 October 2012)

I've seen most of what the OP mentioned, although I don't think it's fair to pick on SJ, there's a fair bit that goes on behind closed doors in all disciplines ime.

I'm not keen on the pinch boots, however weighted (within reason) I can't see a problem with. Rapping is a huge no no in my books, not fair on the horse. Using extra heavy poles, metal ones (hollow so they go CLANG when the horse hits them) and even jamming the poles so they don't fall are things that I would happily use/do with the right horse in the right situation.


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## georgie256 (22 October 2012)

I haven't read the whole post but its not just show jumping it occurs in. Not that I agree with any of it but whatever! It's always going to happen


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## Foxhunter49 (22 October 2012)

I notice that most of this is "I heard" "I have been told" not one person has said "I witnessed"

Rapping was very common many years ago when the poles were heavier and jump cups deeper. Many horses would clout a fence and think nothing of it.

Anything that involves an unfair discipline will not make a horse willing to try. 

I do know that many years ago I had a potentially very good mare - she had a heck of a jump to her but she played with the fences, especially walls. `she would kick a top brick off a wall just for fun, rarely ever touched any other fence. 
I tried all I knew but it never stopped her - she knew exactly how to get that brick out using her back foot. 

In the end I was told to bring her to a course of walls. She jumped the first and scuttled away from it like she had been bitten. What they did was to string a fine wire two inches above the top of the wall, it snapped when she touched it but as she didn't like touching anything she jumped the rest with inches to spare. 

A form of rapping but it taught her to stop playing games. She was not hurt in anyway and after she qualified for the Foxhunter Championship I sold her and she went on to do very well.


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## Barney&Buzz (22 October 2012)

Go Away OP.


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## RayJaguarStorm (22 October 2012)

Some of the things that go on in the horsey world are disgusting.

It's gotten to the point where at many international shows when the horse comes out of the arena a front and back boot are taken off and checked so as not be be overly weighted or be spiked etc inside

On a side note... we used to have hollow plastic poles on the yard, they made a really funny noise if they dropped  My old boy *now retired* never used to knock poles, the one day he did it was with the plastics, he went mental at the noise  Que horse overjumping the plastic poles forever more. No nasty methods needed


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## tallyho! (22 October 2012)

Money can buy you an expensive horse, expensive trainers, yard, fabulous bamboo facilities and a spice rack...

Sadly it will not buy you a sense of humour or good taste


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## natinthehat (22 October 2012)

i think the worst thing people use is draw reins to be honest. Many people misuse them as a crutch. They are supposed to be used to help a horse keep its balance and frame but many inexperienced riders using them end up pulling horse's head behind the vertical to the point where there is no impulsion. i've seen way too many horses with stiff necks from overuse of draw reins. I personally think if you ride well you don't need aids to keep your horse balanced and in a frame. This all comes from leg position, soft hands, and half halting. Keep in mind, this is just my own opinion.


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## tallyho! (22 October 2012)

Well Natinthehat... It's not just your opinion, if you used the search facility here you may find that you are in good company.


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## cobwithattitude (22 October 2012)

i worked for a sj a long time ago, he hardly ever jumped his horses in between big shows-they loved jumping, were beautifully schooled and happy and all home bred. Yes, they were worked sometimes in draw reins - but these were not used as a crutch and certainly were not a razor in a monkey's hands as comments on here would indicate when used by some riders.  There are some genuine sj people out there!


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## tallyho! (22 October 2012)

No way! You mean there are fake show jumpers????!!!!???


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## ClobellsandBaubles (22 October 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Money can buy you an expensive horse, expensive trainers, yard, fabulous bamboo facilities and a spice rack...

Sadly it will not buy you a sense of humour or good taste 

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Please tell me what bamboo facilities are I have a very weird iage of a bamboo toilet


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## cobwithattitude (22 October 2012)

Tally Ho - read what you see, not what you see!


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## natinthehat (22 October 2012)

yeah i dont mean draw reins are bad with every rider, just many riders misuse them. I don't use them cause i just don't like using them.


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## cronkmooar (22 October 2012)

Cloball said:



			Please tell me what bamboo facilities are I have a very weird iage of a bamboo toilet

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love it

Don't think it would be your cup of tea though - imagine the draughts you would get up there in Scotland


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## tallyho! (22 October 2012)

cronkmooar said:



			love it

Don't think it would be your cup of tea though - imagine the draughts you would get up there in Scotland

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Brrrrrrrr....


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## tallyho! (22 October 2012)

cobwithattitude said:



			Tally Ho - read what you see, not what you see! 

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Yeah ok


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## tallyho! (22 October 2012)

Cloball said:



			Please tell me what bamboo facilities are I have a very weird iage of a bamboo toilet

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Aren't you more interested in my spice rack?


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## aimsymc (22 October 2012)

can't quote as on phone. Hegehog skins!! so their murderers as well as cruel!!!!


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## cronkmooar (22 October 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Brrrrrrrr....

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tallyho! said:



			Aren't you more interested in my spice rack?
		
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Chilly !! 

get it


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## fburton (23 October 2012)

Foxhunter49 said:



			I do know that many years ago I had a potentially very good mare - she had a heck of a jump to her but she played with the fences, especially walls. `she would kick a top brick off a wall just for fun, rarely ever touched any other fence. 
I tried all I knew but it never stopped her - she knew exactly how to get that brick out using her back foot.
		
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For fun? Couldn't it simply be that she had learned she could get away with not putting as much effort into jumping walls because catching a brick with her foot wouldn't hurt as much as a pole?


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## cyberhorse (23 October 2012)

fburton said:



			For fun? Couldn't it simply be that she had learned she could get away with not putting as much effort into jumping walls because catching a brick with her foot wouldn't hurt as much as a pole?
		
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This is the point from which rapping and some SJ trainers justification for it begins. Many horses once having some experience under their belt have the judgement to know just how high to jump and not hit the pole too hard i.e tap happy. When they do this to a light plank on flat cups and it comes down or as in this example a brick. Neither of these bothers them particularly so they don't pick their feet up. This will mean a professional having paid their entry fees often picks up 4-8 faults. Some will decide the horse is not naturally careful enough and sell on to an amateur who just wants to learn to jump on something honest and is not trying to make a living from jumping. Others will decide they will "careful up" the horse using a range of methods.


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## fburton (23 October 2012)

I appreciate the explanation, cyberhorse. What you say is entirely logical.

What I was questioning was the interpretation put on the horse's behaviour which seemed anthropomorphic to me. The way the mare's behaviour was described was as if she was deliberately knocking out bricks for her own amusement and/or to wind up the owner.


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## kirstykate (23 October 2012)

Just wondering why its always the Show jumpers who get it in the neck?  What about the dressage pros?


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## cyberhorse (23 October 2012)

fburton said:



			I appreciate the explanation, cyberhorse. What you say is entirely logical.

What I was questioning was the interpretation put on the horse's behaviour which seemed anthropomorphic to me. The way the mare's behaviour was described was as if she was deliberately knocking out bricks for her own amusement and/or to wind up the owner.
		
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I was backing up your point really, and what you said is exactly the reasoning many very experienced SJ have on the point. Not that I believe they don't do some things just to annoy you, stealing hair clips and throwing them, pulling hoods on my jackets and tipping my barrow over - always only after I have been doing "tedious" flat work with him. If we have been jumping I get groomed and fed! I don't think he is a person but he knows which buttons to press...


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## fburton (23 October 2012)

kirstykate said:



			Just wondering why its always the Show jumpers who get it in the neck?  What about the dressage pros?
		
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Wasn't that what the ginormous Rollkur thread was all about?


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## kirstykate (23 October 2012)

Not talking about that, thats humane compared to other things that go on.


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## cyberhorse (23 October 2012)

Rollkur is leveled at the dressage riders and also discussions regarding how some have tongues that are halfway purple, plus alleged methods to produce piaffe. Dressage riders I feel have probably had more flak recently.


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## fburton (23 October 2012)

cyberhorse said:



			I was backing up your point really, and what you said is exactly the reasoning many very experienced SJ have on the point. Not that I believe they don't do some things just to annoy you, stealing hair clips and throwing them, pulling hoods on my jackets and tipping my barrow over - always only after I have been doing "tedious" flat work with him. If we have been jumping I get groomed and fed! I don't think he is a person but he knows which buttons to press...
		
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Hehe... gotcha. 

On a more serious note though, I'd be concerned _if_ unfair or inappropriate things were more likely to be done to horses due to (or their being done was partially justified on the basis of) the owner or trainer thinking the horse's behaviour is motivated by wilful disobedience or desire to do mischief towards them - like saying "it's ok to smack him _because_ he knows he's doing wrong" when that really isn't why the horse is behaving that way at all! The smack (or rap) _may_ be appropriate and effective. If so, better it's done for the right reasons, surely? 

I'm not saying that was the case with Foxhunter49 - the "for fun" aspect might be entirely incidental. However, I do think that making training decisions with the assumption that horses do wrong or bad things "for fun" is rather dubious to say the least.

Apologies for going off-topic - this is a hobby horse of mine.


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## fburton (23 October 2012)

cyberhorse said:



			Rollkur is leveled at the dressage riders and also discussions regarding how some have tongues that are halfway purple, plus alleged methods to produce piaffe. Dressage riders I feel have probably had more flak recently.
		
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Racing people also get it in the neck every year after the Grand National.


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## tallyho! (23 October 2012)

As a hard working beach donkey, I think horses have an awfully nice life.

Wish somebody'd rub my legs with some deep heat...


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## Cortez (23 October 2012)

fburton said:



			Wasn't that what the ginormous Rollkur thread was all about?
		
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Yes, but I have seen some massively overbent SJ's too...............


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## sugaroo (10 April 2013)

I keep my horse at a show jumping yard - their attitude to the horses are appauling - they are professional riders who know how to beat horses into submission but have no horsemanship skills. Horses and ponies also come to the yard to be broken and reschooled by them - so far not one has been successful. The young horses are kicked in their stomache and beaten with hard sticks amd then they wonder why they fail to ride them. At the moment the most recent breaker is out in a bare paddock, he can not be caught as he is wise to the treatmet that awaits - they hate this horse with a vengence and are now starving it to see if that will help them to catch it, it's already a skinny thing - I suppose they'll catch it when it's dead!

Another pony arrived yesterday for reschooling, it resulted in an accident (nothing serious) but it was severely beaten and put on the horse walker for 4 hours. It was rescued by a yard helper - the trainer had said to leave it on there all night! it was already on it's last legs. This is the exact treatment that they give their own top show jumpers if they don't comply to every situation instantly.

That's not to mention all horses being confined to their stables for at least 23.5 hours a day, often with filthy beds and no outlook and gorse covered poles to ensure the horses hurt their legs if they hit a fence.

These people come from a top yard - a yard run by famous names, this is where they've learnt their 'trade' - as people I really like them - but they are not to touch my horse unless it's acase of life and death!

The yard hand who stepped in to help the pony said that this was nothing compared to other show juming yards she'd been working on where horses would be tied up and beaten ruthlessly until their spirit was broken!


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## Amymay (10 April 2013)

What have the RSPCA said about this Sugaroo when you've reported this behaviour to them? And also Trading Standards??


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## BBH (10 April 2013)

Sugaroo - I have to wonder why you would keep your horse on a yard like this and why you haven't made sure to stop this abuse as that's what it is.


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## catwithclaws (10 April 2013)

amymay said:



			What have the RSPCA said about this Sugaroo when you've reported this behaviour to them? And also Trading Standards??
		
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BBH said:



			Sugaroo - I have to wonder why you would keep your horse on a yard like this and why you haven't made sure to stop this abuse as that's what it is.
		
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this, *big sigh*


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## sugaroo (10 April 2013)

tallyho! said:



			As a hard working beach donkey, I think horses have an awfully nice life.

Wish somebody'd rub my legs with some deep heat...



Click to expand...

Hard working donkeys get it easy compared to some top show jumpers who don't see the light of day unless at a show or schooled for 30 mins in the day where they'll be beaten if they get anthing wrong - at leat those donkeys get the winter off - sorry I know it's meant to be a joke but really it's not, horses often get a very raw deal - and of couse they'll be washed up by the time they're 13 with leg injuries - then they'll just be shot!


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## Dizzleton (10 April 2013)

I have a lovely video of a certain famous SJer doing a good 30 minutes of ROLLKUR at last years Hickstead Derby!


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## sugaroo (10 April 2013)

catwithclaws said:



			this, *big sigh* 

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I've only had my horse a few months and moved him here after the first yard was unsuitable. These people were not running the yard when I arrived and it has gradually been getting worse as more and more horses have been arriving. 5 months ago there were only 5 stabled horses, now there are22. It's only been this last 3 weeks that things have really gone too far and the incident with the pony only happened yesterday. The yard is split in to 2 halves the liveries and the professional horses. The yard is also really beautiful with great facilities so it's not that easy to just move away, there's very little else in the area.

I also realise that this is the way that professional yards operate, especially jumping yards, if those horses weren't mistreated here they would be on a similar yard being abused somewhere else.

Many people here are unhappy with what they see but someone recently complained and she was given notice to leave - you must know that it's pretty tricky changing yards, it can be really unsettling and since I'm DIY I need somewhere reasonably close


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## CobsGalore (10 April 2013)

sugaroo said:



			Hard working donkeys get it easy compared to some top show jumpers who don't see the light of day unless at a show or schooled for 30 mins in the day where they'll be beaten if they get anthing wrong - at leat those donkeys get the winter off - sorry I know it's meant to be a joke but really it's not, horses often get a very raw deal - and of couse they'll be washed up by the time they're 13 with leg injuries - then they'll just be shot!
		
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So have you reported it then?


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## BBH (10 April 2013)

sugaroo said:



			I've only had my horse a few months and moved him here after the first yard was unsuitable. These people were not running the yard when I arrived and it has gradually been getting worse as more and more horses have been arriving. 5 months ago there were only 5 stabled horses, now there are22. It's only been this last 3 weeks that things have really gone too far and the incident with the pony only happened yesterday. The yard is split in to 2 halves the liveries and the professional horses. The yard is also really beautiful with great facilities so it's not that easy to just move away, there's very little else in the area.

I also realise that this is the way that professional yards operate, especially jumping yards, if those horses weren't mistreated here they would be on a similar yard being abused somewhere else.

Many people here are unhappy with what they see but someone recently complained and she was given notice to leave - you must know that it's pretty tricky changing yards, it can be really unsettling and since I'm DIY I need somewhere reasonably close
		
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Not good enough reasons to turn a blind eye IMO and no most professional yards don't operate this way.


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## Amymay (10 April 2013)

sugaroo said:



			Many people here are unhappy with what they see but someone recently complained and she was given notice to leave - you must know that it's pretty tricky changing yards, it can be really unsettling and since I'm DIY I need somewhere reasonably close
		
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So, you've not reported anything?

Shame on you.


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## Katikins (10 April 2013)

sugaroo said:



			I've only had my horse a few months and moved him here after the first yard was unsuitable. These people were not running the yard when I arrived and it has gradually been getting worse as more and more horses have been arriving. 5 months ago there were only 5 stabled horses, now there are22. It's only been this last 3 weeks that things have really gone too far and the incident with the pony only happened yesterday. The yard is split in to 2 halves the liveries and the professional horses. The yard is also really beautiful with great facilities so it's not that easy to just move away, there's very little else in the area.

I also realise that this is the way that professional yards operate, especially jumping yards, if those horses weren't mistreated here they would be on a similar yard being abused somewhere else.

Many people here are unhappy with what they see but someone recently complained and she was given notice to leave - you must know that it's pretty tricky changing yards, it can be really unsettling and since I'm DIY I need somewhere reasonably close
		
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I totally understand your dilemma, but I personally couldn't just stand by while abuse was happening right in front of me.  Plus, if it was an anonymous tip off, they couldn't trace it back to you surely?


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## BBH (10 April 2013)

I'm wondering if we have a Troll in our midst. 

I don't know anyone who would honestly not intervene with such blatant regular abuse happening.


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## Amymay (10 April 2013)

BBH said:



			I'm wondering if we have a Troll in our midst. 

I don't know anyone who would honestly not intervene with such blatant regular abuse happening. 

Click to expand...

Of course it's a troll.  How could it not be??


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## catwithclaws (10 April 2013)

BBH said:



			I'm wondering if we have a Troll in our midst. 

I don't know anyone who would honestly not intervene with such blatant regular abuse happening. 

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wanted to say this when i made my first sarcastic remark, but thought i'd better hold my tongue. glad its not just me!


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## CobsGalore (10 April 2013)

amymay said:



			Of course it's a troll.  How could it not be??
		
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Pathetic attempt of trolling. It didn't amuse me in the slightest.


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## BBH (10 April 2013)

In my years of being on here I've never accused someone of being a Troll but this is so silly / awful it has to be.


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## Katikins (10 April 2013)

Damn it.... and my New Year's resolution was not to feed the trolls!!


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## sugaroo (10 April 2013)

Katikins said:



			I totally understand your dilemma, but I personally couldn't just stand by while abuse was happening right in front of me.  Plus, if it was an anonymous tip off, they couldn't trace it back to you surely?
		
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Thanks katkins for at least understanding my dilema and not being self righteous, life is often not black and white - the people running this yard are very young, they work extremely hard and are the victims of professional show jumpers who have shown them that this is the 'way' to success - If I was to report it and the RSPCA turned up they would see a yard of what look like well kept horses, they are fed and excercised, they don't have bruises and can't complain. You know how useless the RSPCA can be even in cases where abuse is obvious, here, unless you whitnessed it first hand you wouldn't think there was anything wrong.

The post was asking for peoples experience of show jumping yards and this is mine - I'm not looking for a witch hunt but if inapropriate behaviour continues to be a theme then I will do something about it - there have also been periods when everything appears ok, at least while I'm there it's mainly when they get a new young horse of their own or are reschooling/breaking a horse that these things happen


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## Amymay (10 April 2013)

sugaroo said:



			the people running this yard are very young, they work extremely hard and are the victims of professional show jumpers who have shown them that this is the 'way' to success - If I was to report it and the RSPCA turned up they would see a yard of what look like well kept horses, they are fed and excercised, they don't have bruises and can't complain. You know how useless the RSPCA can be even in cases where abuse is obvious, here, unless you whitnessed it first hand you wouldn't think there was anything wrong.
		
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Great excuse for doing ****** all.


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## sugaroo (10 April 2013)

CobsGalore said:



			Pathetic attempt of trolling. It didn't amuse me in the slightest. 

Click to expand...

Sounds like you lot aren't opposed to a bit of bullying here. If that's the response I get when I mention what I'm seeing on a forum what chance is there of stopping this treatment


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## CobsGalore (10 April 2013)

sugaroo said:



			The people running this yard are very young, they work extremely hard and are the victims of professional show jumpers who have shown them that this is the 'way' to success
		
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I'm sure this is what the horses are thinking while being beaten/starved


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## CobsGalore (10 April 2013)

sugaroo said:



			If that's the response I get when I mention what I'm seeing on a forum what chance is there of stopping this treatment
		
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## JenJ (10 April 2013)

sugaroo said:



			Sounds like you lot aren't opposed to a bit of bullying here. If that's the response I get when I mention what I'm seeing on a forum what chance is there of stopping this treatment
		
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You got this response not because of what you mentioned you were seeing, but because you are not willing to do anything about it. On a forum of horse lovers, what do you expect? A pat on the back?


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## Nightmare before Christmas (10 April 2013)

Weighted boots and draw reins are fine in training when used properly. 

Dont agree with wrapping but have no problem with false ground lines and such being used at home with the right exercise and the right horse


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## BBH (10 April 2013)

*


sugaroo said:



			the people running this yard are very young, they work extremely hard and are the victims of professional show jumpers who have shown them that this is the 'way' to success -
		
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*


sugaroo said:



			Well they can't have a brain cell between them then not to realise this isn't the way to treat animals. Still, the more people hear of it, and they will, the less clients they'll get and then hopefully they'll go bust.

I know it appears people are having a go but you can't come on a horse forum and expect tales of abuse not to be rallied against and your apparent lack of action is infuriating.

If these horses don't have you and your liveries sticking up for them who will ? Would you like your horse treated like this.
		
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## claracanter (10 April 2013)

Wasnt a certain Olympic showjumper named in a doping case about hypersensitivity?


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## sugaroo (10 April 2013)

JenJ said:



			You got this response not because of what you mentioned you were seeing, but because you are not willing to do anything about it. On a forum of horse lovers, what do you expect? A pat on the back?
		
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I think you just enjoy being self righteous, as I said I haven't been here long and these events have escalated recently. the world of horses isn't all pink and fluffy, I really wish it was - there are many others on this yard who also love horses but are torn, life isn't that straight forward. In the past I've reported an instance where gun dogs were being abused, kept in their kennels in searing heat day and night, while their owners were out from 6 in the morning till 7 at night - a dachund was kept in a tiny pet carrier in the house for all these hours and NOTHING was done about it, as long as animals are fed and not obviously injurred they turn a blind eye.

I never said I was not 'willing' to do anything about it, it's a case that I haven't yet. the horse who wasn't being fed? Well I've slipped him some hay a few times when the yard has been quiet - I struggle with this and will come to my own conclusion about how to handle it

It's easy to say 'I'd do this' and 'i'd do that' when it's not your dilema


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## touchstone (10 April 2013)

sugaroo said:



			Thanks katkins for at least understanding my dilema and not being self righteous, life is often not black and white - the people running this yard are very young, they work extremely hard and are the victims of professional show jumpers who have shown them that this is the 'way' to success - If I was to report it and the RSPCA turned up they would see a yard of what look like well kept horses, they are fed and excercised, they don't have bruises and can't complain. You know how useless the RSPCA can be even in cases where abuse is obvious, here, unless you whitnessed it first hand you wouldn't think there was anything wrong.

The post was asking for peoples experience of show jumping yards and this is mine - I'm not looking for a witch hunt but if inapropriate behaviour continues to be a theme then I will do something about it - there have also been periods when everything appears ok, at least while I'm there it's mainly when they get a new young horse of their own or are reschooling/breaking a horse that these things happen
		
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Then if you think nothing will happen if the RSPCA visit I'd be taking video/pictures on my phone as evidence.  Just because it isn't happening everyday is no excuse.


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## Amymay (10 April 2013)

I never said I was not 'willing' to do anything about it, it's a case that I haven't yet
		
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Good for you.

The number for the RSPCA cruelty line is: 0300 1234 999

Let us know how you get on.


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## sugaroo (10 April 2013)

amymay said:



			Good for you.

The number for the RSPCA cruelty line is: 0300 1234 999

Let us know how you get on.
		
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Self righteous and sarcastic, well done!!!


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## Amymay (10 April 2013)

sugaroo said:



			Self righteous and sarcastic, well done!!!
		
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Take it whichever way you want.

But now having the number, there's no reason not to do something.


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## bonny (10 April 2013)

My take on it for what's it worth, is it's very hard/impossible to get anything done about cruelty on yards without evidence. It would be a waste of time to report something that has happened if the horse concerned looks ok now.....much easier if you have a skinny horse to show.


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## BBH (10 April 2013)

bonny said:



			My take on it for what's it worth, is it's very hard/impossible to get anything done about cruelty on yards without evidence. It would be a waste of time to report something that has happened if the horse concerned looks ok now.....much easier if you have a skinny horse to show.
		
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Most things worth achieving are hard. 

However this one sounds pretty straight forward as there are a lot of witnesses for statements and who I'm sure have camera's that can video and take pictures. Quite easy to keep a timeline of the abuse.

Failing that I'd be telling the owners of the horses just how they are treated.


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## bonny (10 April 2013)

BBH said:



			Most things worth achieving are hard. 

However this one sounds pretty straight forward as there are a lot of witnesses for statements and who I'm sure have camera's that can video and take pictures. Quite easy to keep a timeline of the abuse.

Failing that I'd be telling the owners of the horses just how they are treated.
		
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I agree with what you are saying but I think a plan is called for, not just phoning the rspca and expecting them to do something because you say that it happened. Not easy to do when you are one person on a yard, sounds like talking to the other people there would be the way forward.....


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## Equilibrium Ireland (10 April 2013)

Sugaroo, you are wrong. Not all top SJ yards are run this way. 

No matter how good the facilities, if this is as bad as you say it is then field board with no facilities is a better option as a stop gap. 

If all this is going on you need to video some of it.

I'm in no way excusing the behavoir but coming here to rant isn't doing anything about it. Especially when you say all top yards are like this. Yes there are bad everywhere. I had my mare in SJ training. It ended nastily and abruptly. I'm a neat stable freak. The first time I saw my mare in a bed not to my liking i brought out shavings. Never happened again. When she wasn't getting adequate hay I brought some. Again, things changed. I went nearly daily to see her. I did odd jobs and opened my mouth when need be. 

Move and report. Nothing may happen but you will have done something other than rant on a forum.

Terri


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## LaurenBay (10 April 2013)

I understand it can be hard to find a decent yard, but this behaviour needs to be reported, sooner rather then later. 

Keep a log book of every indident you see, take photos of them in dirty stables, take videos (if you can) of them beating the Horse. You don't have to say it was you, report to WHW and BHS too. They will obviously know a livery has reported them, but they won't know which one, I highly doubt they would kick all their liveries off.


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## Rollin (10 April 2013)

I could not stand by and do nothing no matter how difficult it is to find a good yard.

A horse being starved into submission or left on a horse walker all night - which is what the YO wanted is IMO absolute cruelty.

Even my good doers and a laminitic are not left for hours without 'fibre'.  Are the owners of these horses aware they could face vet bills for colic or ulcers? because of the appalling neglect?


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## tallyho! (10 April 2013)

Oh wow another perpetual thread!

Or is that perennial? Can't believe its still going after FOUR years!


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## Goldenstar (10 April 2013)

tallyho! said:



			Oh wow another perpetual thread!

Or is that perennial? Can't believe its still going after FOUR years!



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It's one of those vampire threads .


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## tallyho! (10 April 2013)

Lol!! It's hilarious... My comment from last year was actually quoted and someone said something like 'I hope it was a joke'... Amusing!!


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## lizstuguinness (10 April 2013)

I personaly know and have trained with Joe Whitaker and Billy Towmey. Both thier training methods are based on working with the horse and its scope and technique. I have never seen unkindness to a horse whilst riding or handling or even in speech whlist i have known them. I belive them both to be genuine kind blokes. As for Joe hecan only have grown up this way if his father trained hiom this way, therfore although I do not know Ellen I can assume that she has also revieved the same knowledge and training as her brother.


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## Amy567 (10 April 2013)

Surely draw reins just help the horse with its technique over the fence, rather than hold it back from being able to stretch, like a standing martingale? I'm not 100% as I've never used them, I just know they help with an outline, muscle building etc. I wouldn't say the weighted boots, draw reins or pinch boots are that cruel as such, if used correctly. Or am I just being naive and don't know enough about them? 

As I say, never used them myself


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## Mongoose11 (10 April 2013)

Here Trollie, Trollie, Trollie...... 

*waits with net*


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## tallyho! (10 April 2013)

Amy567 said:



			Surely draw reins just help the horse with its technique over the fence, rather than hold it back from being able to stretch, like a standing martingale? I'm not 100% as I've never used them, I just know they help with an outline, muscle building etc. I wouldn't say the weighted boots, draw reins or pinch boots are that cruel as such, if used correctly. Or am I just being naive and don't know enough about them? 

As I say, never used them myself 

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I thought draw reins were so you can teach your horse to draw with its hooves?


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## tallyho! (10 April 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			Here Trollie, Trollie, Trollie...... 

*waits with net*
		
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Lol


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## Goldenstar (10 April 2013)

tallyho! said:



			I thought draw reins were so you can teach your horse to draw with its hooves?
		
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Ah that's where I have been going wrong , toddles off to get some crayons.


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## tallyho! (10 April 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			Ah that's where I have been going wrong , toddles off to get some crayons.
		
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It's the best way to get a decent outline IMHO!


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## Goldenstar (10 April 2013)

tallyho! said:



			It's the best way to get a decent outline IMHO!
		
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Your so sharp you will cut your self and to blame for wine on the iPad .


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## tallyho! (10 April 2013)

It makes a nice change Goldenstar!


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## budley95 (10 April 2013)

Haven't bothered reading all the thread, but I think most showjumpers have decent horses that enjoy jumping.I'm all to aware that some horses are pushed though, but they usually don't stay at the top. They end up as sympathy buys from a dealer because of the scar on their front leg from rapping with some spikes on the pole that makes poor pony tank in fear after hitting a pole with their fronts and dumping you by tanking and jumping out the school and then broncing because they spooked before a fence so accidentally ran out but still jumped the wing... Or at least that's what I did. The dealer though had never done anything to the horse though I'd like to stress. It was whatever heavy handed idiot that had tried to get the horse jumping before. lets be blunt though. Everyone Has heard of what goes on. But it's whether you choose to believe it or not, and with horses being tested for hypersensitivity (was it the Canadian rider that was disqualified for this at the Olympics?), and with a horses reaction being fairly tell tale of how it's trained, I like to think most pro's won't want to risk their reputation. It takes years to build it, but minutes to destroy it IMO.


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## tallyho! (10 April 2013)

Budley has demonstrated very kindly here, why one must always read a thread all the way through before posting... 

Lets all give Budley a round of applause for that demonstration


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## FinalFurlong (10 April 2013)

Well done Budley  

And Tallyho, I have just had the most HILARIOUS image of a pink unicorn chasing a troll with a net


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## tallyho! (10 April 2013)

FinalFurlong said:



			Well done Budley  

And Tallyho, I have just had the most HILARIOUS image of a pink unicorn chasing a troll with a net  

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I am happy to report your imagination is in fine form FinalFurlong!!!



It's what we do


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## sugaroo (11 April 2013)

LaurenBay said:



			I understand it can be hard to find a decent yard, but this behaviour needs to be reported, sooner rather then later. 

Keep a log book of every indident you see, take photos of them in dirty stables, take videos (if you can) of them beating the Horse. You don't have to say it was you, report to WHW and BHS too. They will obviously know a livery has reported them, but they won't know which one, I highly doubt they would kick all their liveries off.
		
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Hi have been keeping a close eye as best I can, I ask if horses have been fed (those that are in their bad books and likely to be mistreated) - This morning I fed the horse whoes being deprived of food so that they can catch him - I know I'll get it in the neck when they see i've fed it. I have started talking to others and there is a body of concern, as I said, one person confronted them, then a yard meeting was called - after everyone moaning and complaining only me and one other turned up, the others said they had nothing to discuss, the meeting was called off and the person who complained kicked of the yard - she is in her 60's and had been on the yard for 15 years!

My own horse has come to me with a few issues, he's young and very nervous, he will not have the guy who runs the yard within 15 feet of him even though he's pretty good with everyone else - he had told me that I needed to break his spirit, I chose the opposite and am doing parelli, he is now doing really well and I'm hoping to show them that there are 'other ways'. I'd rather attempt to re-educate them than destroy their business, they are nice kids in every other way - although I don't intend to stand by and let any more abuse happen - the good news is (sort of) that they've decided not to take on any more breakers or retrainers, they've had zero success with them so far and they're finding them a real hastle (horse stuck in field etc). 

I got to this forum because I was looking up abuse on show jumping yards to see how wide spread it really is, I think it goes on a hell of a lot more than we'd like to admit, even when i was a teenager doing affiliated jumping, I saw ponies who'd done badly taken behind a lorry and beaten and I knew of people who used pig prongs as part of their training. Horses don't howl and yelp and rarely retaliate, that is why abuse is quite wide spread - perhaps we should all open our eyes to it and make it utterly unacceptable!


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## Amymay (11 April 2013)

Any luck with the RSPCA?


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## CobsGalore (11 April 2013)

sugaroo said:



			My own horse has come to me with a few issues, he's young and very nervous, he will not have the guy who runs the yard within 15 feet of him even though he's pretty good with everyone else - he had told me that I needed to break his spirit, I chose the opposite and am doing parelli
		
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## Mongoose11 (11 April 2013)

sugaroo said:



			I chose the opposite and am doing parelli!
		
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*BING BING BING BING BING BING BING BING BING BING*

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner!


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## Goldenstar (11 April 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			*BING BING BING BING BING BING BING BING BING BING*

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner! 

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Naughty naughty I restrained myself to a quiet snigger.


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## tallyho! (11 April 2013)

Whoop whoop!!!


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## fatpiggy (11 April 2013)

Jen_Cots said:



			Sounds like you are just on here to cause trouble?

Weighted boots are not cruel and are used to improve hind leg flick, as are shaped boots which squeeze the tendons. 

I think as with EVERY discipline there are people that use dubious methods, however the ones getting the results have horses that want to jump. 

I have two full brothers, one cares about show jumping and really tries to leave them up, the other doesn't. There is no method to fix the one that doesn't enjoy it!
		
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Your first line is a bit of a jaw-dropper.  The OP is merely stating what she has heard and basically asking if there is any truth in it.  How on earth can that be construed as "causing trouble"???   I used to be on a showjumping yard and saw alot of things including a horse tied down with drawreins for an entire afternoon "to teach it a lesson".  Another one had open bleeding wounds on its sides due to abuse of spurs.  These may or may not be things common to many competition owners/riders but in my experience, where money is involved, people will do just about anything including immoral things.


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## Spotsrock (11 April 2013)

Munchkin said:



			Lucyann, this forum (particularly NL) is full of pink and fluffy people who don't like anything said against equestrian sport and prefer to turn a blind eye to any cruelty that occurs (thus allowing it to continue).  I posted a similar thread recently re cruelty in showing and most of the showing fraternity immediately stepped up to deny/defend it.  Just warning you to expect a backlash 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Personally I haven't seen much of what you described go on, but I think I've been very lucky as I was introduced to SJ through a very well known family who have a genuine regard for their horse's welfare.  However, I am fully aware this is not always the case, particularly where horses are produced to be sold on.

The worst I have seen first hand is weighted boots (used in warm up) and steel reinforced nosebands on strong jumping ponies.  Never seen spiked boots or rapping but I have no doubt it still occurs on some yards.

You can often tell a lot by the reaction of a horse in the ring when it stops/hits a fence.  Some don't react at all, others panic.

I too would be interested to hear about what still goes on... I think it's important these things are not brushed under the carpet.
		
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Not exactly, My mare panics when she stops but I have never beaten her or used controversial methods with her. She just panics. I don't even carry a whip and have been asked to leave clinics for refusing to smack her for stopping (she has back issues so when well she will jump meter 10 + for fun, when sore she will stop, how else does a genuine pony tell me when it's sore?!) and my lad bucks if he knocks the fence but again came to me off the track, history known and has never been hit for knocking them down, nor rapped nor worn boots of any sort till he came to me, he just hates the poles touching his legs and gets angry!


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## mandwhy (11 April 2013)

Sugaroo I don't understand how you still think these people are nice when the deliberately starve an animal among other things? Pathetic individuals and I very much doubt every pro yard is like that. 

Abuse like that is counter intuitive anyway so god knows why people think it is a good training technique (other than an outlet for their own frustration when they don't get results) it just produces resentful animals who fear human contact and don't want to work unless forced. Sad :-(


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