# So what happens to hounds who riot?



## Tiddlypom (21 December 2018)

Many folk will have seen the distressing posts on Facebook about the alpaca who had to be PTS after being attacked by out of control hounds on Tuesday. Her cria was seriously injured, and the rest of the herd was left terrified.




__ https://www.facebook.com/266750493688379/posts/781444568885633



The distraught alpaca owners don't want to get dragged into a pro versus anti hunting debate. I certainly hope that at the very least they are properly financially compensated for all their losses incurred by the attack.

But what should happen to the hounds that were out that day?

Destroy them all?
Destroy the ones believed to be involved in the attack, and reprieve the rest?
Do nothing, and hope it doesn't happen again?


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## JFTDWS (21 December 2018)

I have no idea, but what an awful situation.  Poor beasts


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## buddylove (21 December 2018)

I read it, and it is all rather sad.  I honestly don't remember hearing stories of hounds rampaging out of control when I was younger? Has this always been a problem or are hunt servants not as good as they used to be? 
I myself have witnessed a complete lack of control over hounds with one of our local hunts.  Unfortunately, they are not doing themselves any favours,  not even with farmers and those that traditionally supported the hunt.


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## Rowreach (21 December 2018)

That is an awful thing to happen.


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## tankgirl1 (21 December 2018)

Was it a drag hunt?


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## criso (21 December 2018)

I had to check the date and the location as it reminded me of a similar incident earlier this year near me where hounds got in with some Alpacas.


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## Tiddlypom (22 December 2018)

tankgirl1 said:



			Was it a drag hunt?
		
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No, it was the Meynell and South Staffs hunt, a trail hunt. I didn't like to name them until the incident made the BBC news pages, which it now has.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-46650980

I was told of an incident locally, not sure how many years ago, when hounds rioted onto sheep. Only a few hounds did the worrying, but every hound that was out that day was subsquently put down. It seems pretty drastic, but perhaps that is the only thing to do. Hounds MUST NOT riot and attack anything they shouldn't do, whether that's a cat or anything else, they must be rock steady.

Interestingly, alpacas aren't classified as livestock, but as 'exotics'. I don't know if this affects the legalities of the case, as I think that livestock has better protection in law. Poor alpaca, I love watching the alpaca lady with her charges on The Yorkshire Vet program, they are such lovely gentle animals.

What are MFHA guidelines on this, I wonder?


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## Equi (22 December 2018)

A hound that doesnâ€™t listen to the handler and goes rogue is not worth anything. Frankly I think lack of practice is the reason theyâ€™re probably doing this, they donâ€™t know their job anymore because they canâ€™t be taught. They have a natural and very strong urge to hunt and canâ€™t do that on a particular quarry anymore so go for anything because they donâ€™t know their purpose. It maybe means the hunts need to train differently and at the end of a trail give the dogs a carcass or something thatâ€™s already set out so they have to find it then thatâ€™s their reward?


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## Tiddlypom (22 December 2018)

criso said:



			I had to check the date and the location as it reminded me of a similar incident earlier this year near me where hounds got in with some Alpacas.
		
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I came across that incident, from Febuary 2018, whilst looking the above one up.

https://www.hertfordshiremercury.co...keridge-hunt-apologises-herts-alpacas-1181769

No alpacas were attacked that day, but the herd were left panicked and upset. The owner was worried that the pregnant females would abort, and apparently stress affects the quality of the fleece, rendering it unsaleable. The trespass was blamed on a 'drifting scent'. Why the hell lay a trail anywhere near an alpaca farm?

Hunts must realise that they are no longer number one priority country traffic. They are a minority activity which must fit in with everyone else who lives and works in the countryside. If your hounds can't/won't keep to the trails,  then don't take them out.


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## Rowreach (22 December 2018)

ime if the hounds can be identified and the incident is separate from the rest of the pack, only the individuals are destroyed. I do agree with equi though, it's all different these days. I feel sorry for the alpacas and sorry for the hounds.  As usual the real culprits are human.


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## Tiddlypom (22 December 2018)

Rowreach said:



			I feel sorry for the alpacas and sorry for the hounds.  As usual the real culprits are human.
		
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Very much this.


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## SEL (22 December 2018)

I posted a couple of years ago on here about a local hunt who just seemed to have no control over their hounds. I was volunteering at an RDA type riding school and the hunt actually came into their land - with ponies in the field and lessons going on. They were refused permission to cross the field with the ponies in it but the hounds had a scent and went anyway. 

I was pretty horrified at both the lack of control and the rudeness of the hunt staff. Very much agree the culprits are human.


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## Teajack (22 December 2018)

Hunt came through our field and jumped out over wire, taking two of ours with them.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (23 December 2018)

equi said:



			A hound that doesnâ€™t listen to the handler and goes rogue is not worth anything. Frankly I think lack of practice is the reason theyâ€™re probably doing this, they donâ€™t know their job anymore because they canâ€™t be taught. They have a natural and very strong urge to hunt and canâ€™t do that on a particular quarry anymore so go for anything because they donâ€™t know their purpose. It maybe means the hunts need to train differently and at the end of a trail give the dogs a carcass or something thatâ€™s already set out so they have to find it then thatâ€™s their reward?
		
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^^^^ This basically.

Hounds years ago knew what their quarry was, and were taught (via what was called "Cubbing" in those days but is now called "hound exercise") what that was, and were firmly "whipped in" when/if they followed any other scent. Hounds would have been a far more cohesive unit, they'd have understood the boundaries, and in the main there weren't the problems we're now seeing.

Couple this with the fact that - because hunting is "trail" now here in the UK - there is a huge problem with getting good and experienced hunt staff, and/or maintaining continuity of hunt servants who know the hounds, and who in turn the hounds know and respect over a period of time. In the old days hunt service had a much higher status than now; frequently it would've been passed from father to son, with all the shared experience and hands-on involved in that - also hunt servants would have known the hounds and their different idiosyncracies over a far longer period of time - and any "rogue" hound would've been dealt with at a far earlier stage. 

Also, when hounds did go out for a day's hunting; they'd go out and would be expected to follow a single trail, and ONLY that trail. They'd literally follow that to the Kill, and be satisfied from that, would come home to Kennels tired from the day, and wouldn't ever seek to pick up on anything else.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (23 December 2018)

30 odd years ago, some of the drag packs were last stop for an errant hound, bit like borstal for them. However, turnover on occasions was high,  so even our closest one started breeding programmes again. No hound gets more than a 2nd chance.  Once is a problem and they address it, a 2nd time and its game over.


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## Tiddlypom (23 December 2018)

As Equi and Mijods have said, it must be very frustrating for trail hunt hounds. They're taught to follow a particular scent, then they keep getting called off it. It was much simpler all round in the pre ban days.

TXF, your point about rogue hounds sometimes getting a second chance with a drag pack is interesting. How do the drag packs train their hounds to follow an artificial trail? Is it something that post ban trail hunts could learn from?


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## ester (23 December 2018)

I suspect the fact they only seem to take out about 3 couple probably helps - Iâ€™ve not been out with drag but having watched vids of friend have asked where all the hounds were/they didnâ€™t seem to feature much so I wonder if they are more â€˜guidedâ€™ than those trying to replicate â€˜realâ€™ hunting?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (23 December 2018)

Ester, Staff College has 13 and a half couple, usually they have 10 couple as a minimum at each meet, not 3 couple or so.
Tiddly, you'd have to ask, am not au fait with initial training.  It's very very rare for them to go off line tho, but has happened on odd occasions, but (as far as I'm aware) nothing has occurred that shouldn't.


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## ester (23 December 2018)

Ah that would be a bit more 'normal' I wouldn't have asked where they all were then (CUDH).


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## Lammy (26 December 2018)

Honestly I donâ€™t think hunt staff give a toss whether their hounds are under control or not. I think the fault lies completely with the humans who are meant to be training these hounds to be safe in the countryside. If I can call my dog off a rabbit (sometimes a Fox!) or a scent Iâ€™m sure the proâ€™s should be able to.

Our local hunt were recently about near the farm and can hunt on the land thatâ€™s not near the house (or the horses or the cattle, cats etc), master rang the farmer and asked if he could follow a scent down by the stream, farmer says yes but in no uncertain terms let the hounds come through the front fields. Two minutes later thereâ€™s about 6 couples charging through the field of cattle and calves and winding them up a treat. Farmer rings the huntsman furiously and his excuse; â€œwell I canâ€™t control where a fox will run!â€ 

I never had any real feelings either for or against hunting until this season where the attitudes of some hunts have put me off it. I think Iâ€™ll go out with the farmers bloodhounds instead, looks a lot more fun and less standing around!


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## Bob notacob (27 December 2018)

The truth is that it is one hell of a job for a huntsman and a couple of whippers in ,to control a pack when the **** hits the fan. Forty years ago he would have had the assistance of a significant number of followers who knew the ropes, Capable of heading off hounds rioting. Following and controling a split pack. I do despair of the average follower these days. They just havnt a clue what is going on.


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## tankgirl1 (27 December 2018)

This might be a really stupid question, but I have no experience of hunting. Do bloodhounds 'riot' as it were, or do they just follow the human runner?


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## Red-1 (27 December 2018)

tankgirl1 said:



			This might be a really stupid question, but I have no experience of hunting. Do bloodhounds 'riot' as it were, or do they just follow the human runner?
		
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I am no hunt pro, but did many years with bloodhounds, and IME bloodhounds only follow the scent they should, and once they lose the pack they wander around aimlessly, hopefully looking for a rescuer! They were not the Einsteins of the dog world.


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## Mule (27 December 2018)

We don't have trail hunting in Ireland. I know it was brought in post hunting ban in the UK but I don't understand what it is. How is it different to drag hunting?


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## honetpot (27 December 2018)

I used to look after a drag hunter, and as I understand it the course is a lot faster and the fences tougher than a normal hunt. A trail hunt would be probably be aimed at all types of rider. In an old hunt you would not have to jump fences if you didn't want to.
 I think its far tougher for hunts now, the country side is getting more cut up and divided and you need a really good Master to foster good relations with landowners. The better hunts keep their staff and use other income streams to fund wages.
  As to hounds not responding, they are working dogs and like most working dogs if they are not doing a job they are supposed to do they usually PTS. They are a danger to themselves and road users.
  On a lighter note this is my cheer up hunting video, it always makes me laugh.


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## ihatework (27 December 2018)

A Mule In A Manager said:



			We don't have trail hunting in Ireland. I know it was brought in post hunting ban in the UK but I don't understand what it is. How is it different to drag hunting?
		
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Trail hunting is what the old foxhound packs do. Iâ€™m not a huge supporter of the foxhounds but my understanding is they are trying to recreate following a scent as if they were still foxhunting .... no further comment 

The drag hunts are a bit different in my experience (and preference). The day is shorter and more structured. The emphasis is more on the riding & jumping rather than the act of hunting. They ride over 3-4 â€˜linesâ€™ which is very much pre-defined and usually quite quick, with breathers in between.


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## Orangehorse (17 January 2019)

I was at a meet of the local Mink Hounds 4 or 5 years ago and I asked where the hounds came from, drafted from other packs they said.  As they moved off from the meet one hound turned and went in the opposite direction.  Not sure he had much of a long term future...â€¦.


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## Tiddlypom (13 March 2019)

It appears to have happened again. Same pack as with the alpaca, but the victim this time was a lamb. All pics/videos from antis, but the video clearly shows the hound going for the lamb. Whilst the antis will have interfered with the control of the hounds, this is unforgiveable.




__ https://www.facebook.com/622461131133721/posts/2153719788007840


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## DabDab (13 March 2019)

They're rapidly burning bridges with the local rural community then...


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## ycbm (13 March 2019)

I have to be fair here. I have been out with a drag pack that killed a lamb. It is, of course, pure folly to lay lines through or even near fields with lambs in them and it never happened again and the lamb was paid for.


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## Mule (13 March 2019)

I know of a hunt that keeps its hounds with lambs and goats. Mabey it's to prevent something like this happening.


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## Dobiegirl (13 March 2019)

I cant understand why they would lay a trail which had Alpacas in? surely that is asking for trouble.


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## Clodagh (14 March 2019)

Dobiegirl said:



			I cant understand why they would lay a trail which had Alpacas in? surely that is asking for trouble.
		
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We always think that. Why lay trails across roads, railway lines, through housing estates.


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## ycbm (14 March 2019)

Dobiegirl said:



			I cant understand why they would lay a trail which had Alpacas in? surely that is asking for trouble.
		
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The hounds that killed the alpaca had left the trail. Clodaghs post is satire, hounds that cross railway lines and go through housing estates are also following fox, not a laid trail.


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## Rowreach (14 March 2019)

I  hunted for many years with two of the most professional and skilled huntsmen in the country, and this sort of thing never ever happened with their hounds.  Then I moved here and found myself hunting with the Keystone Cops version of huntsmen, which is when I stopped.

This sort of thing is inexcusable and totally avoidable.

And I agree with Clodagh ....


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## Clodagh (14 March 2019)

ycbm said:



			The hounds that killed the alpaca had left the trail. Clodaghs post is satire, hounds that cross railway lines and go through housing estates are also following fox, not a laid trail.
		
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I wasn't intending it to be rude to Dobiegirl BTW.


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## Dobiegirl (14 March 2019)

I know you were not being rude Clodagh. Another mickey mouse hunt is the Mendip Farmers, they are forever coming on other peoples land without permission and certainly not laying trails, they are hunting foxes no doubt about it and the police are not interested. They drive quad bikes everywhere some of which are allegedly not taxed, they have terriers crammed into tiny tin boxes on the back of these and they block badger setts, this hunt is supported by Jacob Rees Mogg in fact they had a meet at his house a few weeks ago and he said at the time he was happy to support a hunt which sets trails. All the locals know they are hunting foxes, the trail setting is just a smokescreen and just a reminder hunting foxes with a pack of hounds is illegal.


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## Hormonal Filly (14 March 2019)

How sad for all parties. Mind, I don't trust anything sabs post on Facebook. 

They regularly complain hounds are on main roads, getting hit, one even died not so long ago but when you get the full story the sabs called the hounds from the other side of the road causing the issue in the first place. Even if you are against hunt, fair enough. But being a sab, going out in balaclavas, driving across private land and terrifying young children, grabbing horses, isn't normal. 
It makes me wonder if the sabs were involved in some respect. 

Didn't realise the mendip farmers were like that Dobiegirl! I have followed the Beaufort a few times and they seemed very professional and respectful with land, as well as hounds being exceedingly well behaved.


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## Rowreach (14 March 2019)

Aimeetess said:



			Didn't realise the mendip farmers were like that Dobiegirl! I have followed the Beaufort a few times and they seemed very professional and respectful with land, as well as hounds being exceedingly well behaved.
		
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The Beaufort used to come and visit with us once or twice a season, and their bloodlust was quite shocking


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## Leo Walker (14 March 2019)

I'm pro hunting, well I actually, I'm pro hunting done properly, not this sort of fiasco. The sabs are below contempt but the hunts are handing all this to them on a plate.

I dont understand why people want to go anymore. It must be an awful day out if the whole time is spent fighting with sabs.


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## ihatework (14 March 2019)

Rowreach said:



			The Beaufort used to come and visit with us once or twice a season, and their bloodlust was quite shocking 

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Yes I could tell a couple of hair raising stories about their respect for land and other people.

That said, havenâ€™t heard anything about seriously awol hounds, the odd straggler lost but otherwise pretty well trained.


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## ycbm (14 March 2019)

Clodagh said:



			I wasn't intending it to be rude to Dobiegirl BTW.
		
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I didn't think so, just satirical.


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## Nasicus (25 March 2019)

Just a shower thought here, not worth making a thread for it.
But I was wondering, are hounds still taught to follow a foxes scent for the trails? I would have thought that they could be trained for follow a far more different, exotic scent, to avoid these 'oopsie whoopsie they picked up on a foxes scent' incidents. Of course, that does assume that packs are following the law, but surely training the hounds on some stinky, unusual scent (something like moose urine that hunters use in the US?) could help prevent 'crossed wires' and the hounds getting diverted by a scent left by a passing fox.

Of course, I don't have much understanding or interest in hunting, but was curious to know if similar is already implemented by some packs?


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