# Thin soles - how to treat?



## saddlesore (13 January 2012)

Well as some of you are aware I've been having some on/off lameness issues with my boy. Vet came out, reckons bruised sole so had been treating him for that and all was looking good. Then he pulled a front shoe on wed  and came in like he was missing a leg. Shoe went back on yesterday, he seems ok, maybe not 100% on it, but think he's just still a bit sore. Anyway I was having a prod at his feet and realised I could flex the sole with thumb pressure! 

Not sure what to do now, will speak to farrier on Monday but wondered if any of you had any experince in dealing with it?

He lives out on the rainy west coast of Scotland which probably doesn't help. Is fed adlib haylage in field, and gets small daily feed of happy hoof, fast fibre, equihoof hoof supplement, mag ox and pink powder. Regularly wormed etc and has just been brought back into work after a spell off due to the lameness.

Any thoughts/advice greatly appreciated!


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## hayinamanger (13 January 2012)

We've had about 6 weeks of rain and it make their hooves so soft.  My farrier said to paint the entire soles, including the frog, with Keratex Hoof Hardener as often as you can.  It needs to go onto a dry foot though.


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## paddy555 (13 January 2012)

elderlycoupleindevon said:



			We've had about 6 weeks of rain and it make their hooves so soft.  My farrier said to paint the entire soles, including the frog, with Keratex Hoof Hardener as often as you can.  It needs to go onto a dry foot though.
		
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why would anyone want to paint formaldyhyde on their horse's foot?


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## amandap (13 January 2012)

First, I'm not an expert. I would say that in the first instance it depends why the soles are thin. Is it due to excessive rasping or dietary and possibly shoeing issues? Obviously if rasping/paring is the cause or part of it then that must stop. Thin soles should never be rasped or pared anyway, they need to be allowed to thicken. The sole needs to be kept off stones and tbh I would remove shoes and use  boots and pads for work for sole protection and support and to increase circulation in the hoof.
Dietary problems such as too high sugars can cause inflammation of the sole corium (tissue that produces sole) which reduces sole production. If the lamina are also inflammed then the hoof capsule can move in relation to the coffin bone and cause further pressure on the sole. Peripheral loading of shoes also puts more pressure on a thin sole as the coffin bone is above sole. Sole actually grows from tissues that are at the base of the coffin bone.

Here's some articles to read. http://hoofrehab.com/hoof articles by Pete Ramey.htm
Read the sole one for an understanding of sole. Boots and pads is another to read as well as the diet one.

Sorry if I've waffled but I'd go for shoe removal, decent trim with *no* sole removal/rasping, reassess diet and use pads and boots for work when not in soft, supportive but giving surfaces. Growing a thicker sole will take time...

Ps. Painting stuff on to harden sole will not make it thicker which is what is needed for strength.


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## saddlesore (13 January 2012)

Thanks for the replies. Keratex gets a good name so might give it a go. Amandap, he is so so sore with front shoes off that that would really be my last resort atm, however, I was thinking about using boots over his shoes for riding out just now, or is that just silly? 

I've never seen my farrier pare his sole, only his frog, but will speak to him on Monday and see if that's true or if I just made it up  Are there any good feed supplements that might help strenghten them? Also, he is mostly a happy hacker, would that impact on sole growth etc? Would you recommend stabling him to allow his feet to dry out etc?

Really don't know where to start - was so shocked today!


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## TigerTail (13 January 2012)

Painting stuff on just prevents the hoof being able to breathe and often gives you thrush and other fungal issues. 

Hoof health comes from diet so the diet is clearly not working for your horse.

If he is losing shoes this also suggests compromised horn, unless they were over due doing.

Of course he was sore with front shoes off, however the only way to really improve the hoof structure is to take off the shoes - they are a rigid object on the bottom of something which is supposed to be able to flex. They also prevent mud/gravel/sand/earth pushing up into the hoof and stimulating it to grow more.

You could bring him in for a couple of hours to allow the hoof to dry out but keeping him in means less stimulation to the hoof ergo slower growth.

Are you doing worm counts and only worming as and when? Excess chemicals are detrimental to overall horse health, damage the delicate gut and therefore affect the absorption of food which in turn effects your hoof growth.

Happy Hoof isnt the best food tbh, contains molasses which we all know is bad for footy feet, pink powder is full of rubbish (see the pink powder breakdown thread i did, and as you are feeding magnesium separately its pointless to feed PP too. Il have a look at the ingredients of your other supp and come back to you.


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## Oberon (13 January 2012)

I'm afraid there isn't a magic potion or magic supplement.

However I would say that low levels of zinc and copper will impair the horse's ability to lay down tissue.

A decent supplement with lower levels of iron and higher levels of copper and zinc may do the trick - as well as dropping the Happy Hoof (if ever there was a false advertising via a name!) as you need to avoid any molasses at all until you've fixed the situation.

You can't trim, shoe or rub lotion your way to a healthy hoof. You have to grow one.
If you can flex the sole with thumb pressure it indicates there is not enough tissue under the coffin bone. That is nothing to do with the ground conditions. It's a problem with the horse.

And it's not good.

The horse needs to lay down more tissue asap.

I would say boots is an excellent idea - rather negates the purpose of the shoes however...but if it keep him comfortable then cool.

But please get some minerals into him!


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## LeneHorse (13 January 2012)

Your chap sounds similar to my mare. She has thin soles which seem to be getting worse despite being fed supplement. We have tried her in gel pads in front (she ended up with thrush) and soleguard (which fell out after 2 weeks) - she is back to normal shoes now and is actually better in the winter on the softer ground than on the hard ground in summer. However as with your horse if she loses a front shoe she is crippled. I turn out in overreach boots to try and prevent shoe loss but our fields are mud baths at the moment so there is a high risk of shoe loss.  I am also in West of Scotland so similar weather conditions to you.
I really don't know what to try next but am not planning to go down the barefoot route as I don't think she would cope at all well.
She gets shod every 6 weeks before anyone (not you OP) suggests she is losing shoes due to not being shod often enough. And she only gets some chaff plus her supplements (and hay) so I'm not stuffing her full of feed. She is a good doer though which is another worry.

So I'm afraid I'm not much help to you but just thought it might make you feel better to know you're not alone with this problem.


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## foxy1 (13 January 2012)

LeneHorse She will be lacking in something, probably minerals.


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## amandap (13 January 2012)

Boots over soles will protect the sole.  The problem with gel pads is you can't remove them so thrush can flourish.

There are comfort pads to go inside boots if needed. Obviously not much good with shoes.http://blog.easycareinc.com/blog/horse-boots-customer-help/easycare-comfort-pads
 I believe hoof wraps can help horses with thin soles but if your farrier isn't familiar with them you may need an experienced trimmer. Getting a good trimmer in the short term to support you in a barefoot rehab period is an option...


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## saddlesore (13 January 2012)

Thanks for all the replies - and good to know that I'm not alone! He is normally shod every 6 weeks, but his feet have been growing more slowly atm so trying to let them go 7 weeks so that there is more growth and the nail holes are further apart. He is turned out with o/r boots on in an attempt to stop him losing shoes. This never used to be a problem, but over the past year he has been losing a shoe fairly regularly  Hence I put him on the supplement, the mag ox and the happy hoof as it said it contained biotin  I have literally just bought a new bag so will fininsh that first, but what would you recommend I try after that?

What other minerals should he be getting? Zinc? He looks really healthy on the outside -in fact when the vet was out she commented on how well he looked!


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## TigerTail (13 January 2012)

LeneHorse what supplement are you using?

You two both need to get your hay analysed and then feed the specific minerals they need rather than trying to blanket supplement with commerical stuff, which is too weak and clogged with fillers to give them what they actually need.

Thin soles is an extremely big problem and also a very specific one which needs getting on top of asap.


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## brucea (13 January 2012)

Sorry if I've waffled but I'd go for shoe removal, decent trim with no sole removal/rasping, reassess diet and use pads and boots for work when not in soft, supportive but giving surfaces. Growing a thicker sole will take time..
		
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This is really  your best advice you'll get. His feet are like that for a reason I'm afraid. You can't "fix" a thin sole you can only grow a better sole, and to do that you need the right building blocks.

It's best to, but you don't actually need to analyse if you don't want to.

If I were you I'd try the Equimins Meta Balance Advance (it's not advertised - it si a barefoot lower iron supplement) and it takes the guesswork out.

As a minimum you need to feed Sodium, Zinc, Copper, Selenium, Magnesium , phosphateand I also boost Vits C, E and Lysine and a few other things

An attractive alternative is Ross and Mel at Progressive Earth on Orkney http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Progressive-Earth who have a blended supplement (I think it's called Pro Hoof or something like that) - again it takes the guess work out. 

Neither of these will contain Sodium - but salt is cheap.


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## saddlesore (13 January 2012)

Thanks TT, I'm on a livery yard so getting thier haylage analysed would go down like a lead balloon I'm afraid. Commercial balancers are about the best that I can do, hence the pink powder etc. What non molassed chaff would you recommned? Is the fast fibre ok?


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## brucea (13 January 2012)

Fast Fibre is fine


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## saddlesore (13 January 2012)

Oh thanks a mill brucea! Will order one of those  Can you also recommend me a better chaff to use? would you advise using the likes of keratex in the mean time, to protect the thin sole that is there?


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## saddlesore (13 January 2012)

Can't find it on equimins website. How do you order it?


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## Miss L Toe (13 January 2012)

I suggest you stable at night on clean dry shavings, feed 20gm of biotin, consider researching barefoot, but first you need to get him on a solid diet, forget Happy Hoof as a good thing for feet, its a marketing ploy!
The basic barefoot daily diet is hi fibre low sugar, and additional minerals which must be balanced.
80-120gms micronised linseed meal [Equimins]
0.5 to 1kg Fast Fibre [Allen and Page]
A hoof supplement which will provide 20 gms of biotin plus MgO, available at Equimins, as is advice.
Assume the diet is low in Magnesium,  you need to feed a balanced mineral supplement, targeted at hoof growth.
 I use Dengie non molasses lo alfalfa chaff
Try to exercise on the road every day to get blood flow and encourage healthy hooves, you must get rid of any disease and have a good farrier.


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## amandap (13 January 2012)

saddlesore said:



			Can't find it on equimins website. How do you order it?
		
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I understand you have to phone to order it. You want it for the low iron content if they ask why.


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## Miss L Toe (13 January 2012)

saddlesore said:



			Can't find it on equimins website. How do you order it?
		
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Send an email or phone for personal service, the owner is very nice and is a well educated nutritionist.


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## brucea (13 January 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			I suggest you stable at night on clean dry shavings, feed 20gm of biotin, consider researching barefoot, but first you need to get him on a solid diet, forget Happy Hoof as a good thing for feet, its a marketing ploy!
The basic barefoot daily diet is hi fibre low sugar, and additional minerals which must be balanced.
80-120gms micronised linseed meal [Equimins]
0.5 to 1kg Fast Fibre [Allen and Page]
A hoof supplement which will provide 20 gms of biotin plus MgO, available at Equimins, as is advice.
Assume the diet is low in Magnesium,  you need to feed a balanced mineral supplement, targeted at hoof growth.
 I use Dengie non molasses lo alfalfa chaff
Try to exercise on the road every day to get blood flow and encourage healthy hooves, you must get rid of any disease and have a good farrier.
		
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Got to agree on the Happy Hoof comment.

The cheapest linseed is I think from Charnwood Mills who will send it if you are out of range of a feed store that stocks it.

I'm slightly iffy about the Dengie products - I found my one that gets alfalfa does better with the Greengold grown in Perthshire than the Dengie stuff. May be it's lower in sugar. It certainly looks and smells different (fressher somehow) than the Dengie - and it doesn't have any fungal inhibitors sprayed on it.


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## Miss L Toe (13 January 2012)

brucea said:



			Got to agree on the Happy Hoof comment.

The cheapest linseed is I think from Charnwood Mills who will send it if you are out of range of a feed store that stocks it.

I'm slightly iffy about the Dengie products - I found my one that gets alfalfa does better with the Greengold grown in Perthshire than the Dengie stuff. May be it's lower in sugar. It certainly looks and smells different (fressher somehow) than the Dengie - and it doesn't have any fungal inhibitors sprayed on it.
		
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Charnwood is the cheapest, but not everyone wants nine months supply, I make up my linseed and minerals once every 120 days, so 10kg is fine for me with one 15.00hh standardbred.
I am not sure you need the chaff, I just like to be belt and braces with a few different fibre sources, and FF is a bit like black porridge.


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## TigerTail (13 January 2012)

Suggest you take the new bag of HH back or sell it to someone else on the yard.

You just take a few handfuls of the haylege - YO's dont need to know  whilst Pro Hoof is good, if this was my horse Id be doing the analysis, thin soles can = no hoof very quickly and I wouldnt be risking a general supp which pro hoof and the equimins ones still are - as you could be high in zinc and low in mag or vica versa and making the one you are higher in high still isnt helpful.


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## saddlesore (13 January 2012)

Thanks guys 

Current plan of attack is as follows:

Email equimins and get that supplement, and ask them whether their paint on hoof hardener would be a useful addition in the meantime. Change chaff to something non molassed (although he only gets small handful once a day anyway), leave him in stable for few hours each day and couple of nights a week to let soles dry right out. Keep him in light exercise on good ground only, and all going well will invest in over the shoe boots for stoney ground until his hooves thicken. Will also speak to farrier on Monday.

Seem reasonable? I know I'm not doing everything recommended, but at least I'm starting somewhere! Also, did I read that cinammon is good for feet or did I make that up?


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## Nocturnal (13 January 2012)

Agree with most of the advice above, the only thing I'd add is to stay away from keratex hoof hardener - it contains formaldehyde (used for preserving dead bodies 
	
	
		
		
	


	




).


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## saddlesore (13 January 2012)

Ha ha love your wee green smiley! I've emailed equimins and asked for their advice re their own brand hoof hardener so I'll see what they say. Bloody horses - never used to have so much bother with his bloomin feet


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## TigerTail (13 January 2012)

How many times, NO to hoof hardeners! It will damage your already compromised hoof!

Also there is no point in asking a company if their product will help your horses - 99.9% of them will say yes of course it will and bamboozle you with crap to make you buy it because......ALL THEY WANT IS YOUR MONEY REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE PRODUCT IS WORTH YOU BUYING!!!!!

Big thumbs up to the rest though but please please think about the forage analysis.


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## amandap (13 January 2012)

saddlesore said:



			Seem reasonable? I know I'm not doing everything recommended, but at least I'm starting somewhere!
		
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Very reasonable. Keeping the sole safe is paramount and tweaking diet is always good. 
Hope your farrier can help too with suggestions. Good luck, you will get there. The main thing is you recognized the thin soles and are acting.


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## trina1982 (13 January 2012)

saddlesore said:



			Ha ha love your wee green smiley! I've emailed equimins and asked for their advice re their own brand hoof hardener so I'll see what they say. Bloody horses - never used to have so much bother with his bloomin feet 

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'Never used to have so much bother' So whats changed?

I had a little look at your history to see what lameness issues you were having. Your friends horses hooves were in a bad way weren't they! Hope her horse is on the mend. It did start me wondering, if you guys are at the same yard, that there is something in the grazing that just does not suit the horses? In the thread it was mentioned the fields were fertilized. Is it possible this is the cause of the problems (not asking you directly - putting it out there for all the 'foot' people to answer!)

Fingers crossed you can start to see some improvement with all the suggestions you've had. Good luck and keep us informed of any changes 

Trina x


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## saddlesore (13 January 2012)

Trina, I reckon you might well be onto something. My friends horse's feet haven't really got any better and a remedial farrier is now involved. Apparently its been a bad imbalance and his sole has somehow become too thin? Loads of issues up there atm with abscesses - is that land related? Also a few have had white line. That said, there are a lot of horses there and the majority are fine! 

In terms of what changed - he moved yards. However, he was fine for about a year, maybe a bit less, so i didn't really link the two. Its the same farrier I use. The fields are fertilised, they are also regularly rested and rotated so they're not over grazed in any way.

It's driving me demented. Having seen how thin his soles have become, that could well be a cause of the lameness. I had him on box rest when the vet came out so his soles were dry and hard then so she only found bruising


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## amandap (13 January 2012)

It could well be deficiencies or even excess of something/s in the grass and or other forage. Copper (for example) is stored in the liver so effects of depletion may take some time to be reflected in the hooves.


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## lazybee (14 January 2012)

saddlesore said:



			Well as some of you are aware I've been having some on/off lameness issues with my boy. Vet came out, reckons bruised sole so had been treating him for that and all was looking good. Then he pulled a front shoe on wed  and came in like he was missing a leg. Shoe went back on yesterday, he seems ok, maybe not 100% on it, but think he's just still a bit sore. Anyway I was having a prod at his feet and realised I could flex the sole with thumb pressure! 

Not sure what to do now, will speak to farrier on Monday but wondered if any of you had any experince in dealing with it?

He lives out on the rainy west coast of Scotland which probably doesn't help. Is fed adlib haylage in field, and gets small daily feed of happy hoof, fast fibre, equihoof hoof supplement, mag ox and pink powder. Regularly wormed etc and has just been brought back into work after a spell off due to the lameness.

Any thoughts/advice greatly appreciated!
		
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I know this is a bit like first aid but.........

I'm was having exactly the same symptoms as you're having, but with a Shetland. He had a bout of late laminitis due to him scoffing a whole tree full of peaches (they all fell off the tree on the same day and he found them) due to the massive sugar hit. Anyway, he seemed to take forever to become sound. We noticed then that he had soft soles and could feel them give with thumb pressure. We're lucky enough to have a good remedial farrier. He came out and as the pony was in pain the first priority was to stabilise the sole. He made some shoes, not heart bar, but longer and overlapped. They were made not so much as a support shoe but as a retainer for the filler. He then cleaned the sole thoroughly and dried it, then cut a small piece of mesh and bonded this in place with a Urethane product similar to sole guard. Then he filled the whole sole area with the same product. This then stopped the sole from flexing when he walked The filler stopped his pain straight away. After four weeks the sole had stabilised and the lameness gone. He had the same treatment repeated just to guarantee all was well. he's now back to normal. Our farrier says he's had loads of similar cases this winter from late laminitis and sole problems and he's seeing more abscesses than ever before. we've had so much rain in the last few weeks. which is making it worse. We've had two abscesses and two cracks in the others.


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## horsedreams (14 January 2012)

have not read all replies so someone may have already suggested this one 
but my grandfather always used 

eucalyptus oil on horses hooves for all kinds of problems---
 one being soft soles

easily available from local chemists


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## TigerTail (14 January 2012)

Lots of fertilizer and other chemicals put on land are bad for horses (look at the rise in lami/cushings/equine metabolic disease) - they havnt evolved yet to deal with them. Same as humans getting all these different cancers because of the man made products we eat sleep and breathe.

Again just take a handful of haylege home with you and send it off to here

http://shop.forageplus.com/epages/e... horses forage to determine nutrition needs."

If the other liveries are all on standard diets like yours was on then this will also be contributing, as we've already discussed there is a lot that can be improved in yours. 

Remedial shoeing is only covering up the issues tbh. Thats why a lot of us have suggested going barefoot with boots and pads as we know that is the only way to grow a stronger hoof - rather than covering up the issues with a shoe and putting nails into a damaged hoof wall.


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## Oberon (14 January 2012)

saddlesore said:



			Thanks guys 

Current plan of attack is as follows:

Email equimins and get that supplement, and ask them whether their paint on hoof hardener would be a useful addition in the meantime. Change chaff to something non molassed (although he only gets small handful once a day anyway), leave him in stable for few hours each day and couple of nights a week to let soles dry right out. Keep him in light exercise on good ground only, and all going well will invest in over the shoe boots for stoney ground until his hooves thicken. Will also speak to farrier on Monday.

Seem reasonable? I know I'm not doing everything recommended, but at least I'm starting somewhere! Also, did I read that cinammon is good for feet or did I make that up? 

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Seems very reasonable and thank you for listening to us nutters. We're determined - you can give us that

Equimins META Balance or Pro Hoof http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PRO-HOOF-...r_Equipment&hash=item415ecd69e0#ht_1466wt_952 were created by demand by people who wanted a supplement that complimented UK's grazing more.

The gold standard is always forage analysis - you only get a true picture of what's 'off' with your grazing when you know what's in it. But those two supplements will help in the meantime.

I was nervous of doing a forage analysis that it may offend my YO - but they were perfectly happy (I think I amuse them with my little experiments 
	
	
		
		
	


	




) and I could afterwards tell them that the forage was actually pretty good. Unfortunately not a single other livery has been interested in the results  but no one 'moans' about the haylage any more

Do not use anything other than water on the horse's hooves (except when treating infection). Hardeners will do more harm than good.

You can add micronised linseed to the diet too - this will provide all the omega oils for joints, gut muculage, coat health and also moisture balance within the hoof wall.

Fast Fibre/unmolassed beet/hay chaff/oat straw chaff are useful to use as a base for the supplements. 

Although I am a spokesperson for the Barefoot Taliban
	
	
		
		
	


	




  and I agree that ground stimulation is the best way to thicken soles......I would be cautious about removing the shoes at this time. Try the minerals for a couple of months and see if that helps.


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## cptrayes (14 January 2012)

Oberon said:



			Although I am a spokesperson for the Barefoot Taliban
	
	
		
		
	


	




  and I agree that ground stimulation is the best way to thicken soles......I would be cautious about removing the shoes at this time. Try the minerals for a couple of months and see if that helps.
		
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Me too and me too and me too. All three in fact


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## LeneHorse (14 January 2012)

TigerTail said:



			LeneHorse what supplement are you using?

You two both need to get your hay analysed and then feed the specific minerals they need rather than trying to blanket supplement with commerical stuff, which is too weak and clogged with fillers to give them what they actually need.

Thin soles is an extremely big problem and also a very specific one which needs getting on top of asap.
		
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This thread has really got me thinking about what I am feeding my horse. I have been using Formula4Feet (suggested by my farrier) for her hoof supplement. It had good results at first with better hoof growth but after a couple of year's use her feet have stayed much the same as they were before. Previously I tried her on NAF profeet liquid but she refused to touch the feed with it in. 
 She gets Dengie HiFi original as well which probably has far too much molasses so I'm thinking of changing that. Would Hifi Lite be better, or should I try a non alfalfa based chaff? Any recommendations? I'm not sure about the A&P fast fibre as sometimes I get her brought in if I'm working late, and on those days I need to make her feed up in the morning and leave it in the box for her coming in at night.

Our YO supplies the hay but he buys it in so it can vary according to where he's sourced it from, so I'm not sure if it would be worth getting the analysis done as the next bale might be completely different. Where do you send it to get analysed - can anyone provide a link?
I am not aware of any of the other horses at the yard having problem feet - if the hay/grazing was poor would others not be affected? Her field mate gets no hard feed whatever just grass and hay, and her feet are fine.

I have actually started to suspect that she might be borderline EMS and am getting her blood tested next week. Is there any link between EMS and thin soles?  I know they are more prone to laminitis. 
I could go on forever about this but will spare you any more of my worries. 
Anyway thanks to OP for bringing up this subject and to everyone who replied with such useful ideas.


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## paddy555 (14 January 2012)

LeneHorse said:



			I am not aware of any of the other horses at the yard having problem feet - if the hay/grazing was poor would others not be affected? Her field mate gets no hard feed whatever just grass and hay, and her feet are fine.
		
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 No they are all different. I have some who can eat grass 24/7, no supplements and very little else and they are gravel crunchers. (they are all barefoot) Some of the others do better with a supplement and one is totally odd, cannot cope with the grass and needs the best supplement available to keep good feet on him.


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## TigerTail (14 January 2012)

Im fairly convinced that the company name 'NAF' is a hidden in plain sight joke at the expense of all their customers - never touch their products with a barge pole!

Most of the barefooters on here feed some variation on micronised linseed, a non mollassed chaff (readigrass in my case) and pro hoof. This isnt only for barefooters, its just that those who have gone barefoot tend to put massive amounts of research into it to make their horse happy and give it the best diet and consequently the best feet they can have.

Micronised linseed is very good for putting weight on so you dont need a massive bucket feet which is better for their tummies anyway as horses are trickle feeders.

http://www.barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/search/label/thin sole horse

Link here to Lucy Priory's blog and a section on thin soles - she does come on here sometimes, shes a fab trimmer and that blog is a wealth of info for owners.


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## saddlesore (14 January 2012)

Thanks again guys. Sadly, horse came in lame today  and is now on box rest to let his feet dry out a bit before doing anything else. Phoned my vet, but they are emergency only on a Sat and he didn't feel that this was an emergency  So on his advice, horse to be box rested until Monday or Tuesday and if no improvement then to go for xrays to examine extent of damage, and if he's improving then he says its prob more of a managment issue like you guys have said. 

Couple of questions - how do you feed micronised linseed and where do you get it? Also, am going to invest in hoof boots for over his shoes whilst hacking atm until things improve - can you recommend me any? 

Thanks again for all your help - fingers crossed! x


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## AngieandBen (15 January 2012)

Linseed from Charwood Milling;  I would consider taking shoes off completely and buying boots and pads.  The boots are not designed to wear with shoes as they will probably damage them and wont last you long!

http://www.easycareinc.com/Our_Boots/easyboots/easyboots.aspx

http://www.charnwood-milling.co.uk/

Hope your horse is ok, good luck with the vet


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## Miss L Toe (15 January 2012)

LeneHorse said:



			This thread has really got me thinking about what I am feeding my horse. I have been using Formula4Feet (suggested by my farrier) for her hoof supplement. It had good results at first with better hoof growth but after a couple of year's use her feet have stayed much the same as they were before. Previously I tried her on NAF profeet liquid but she refused to touch the feed with it in. 
 She gets Dengie HiFi original as well which probably has far too much molasses so I'm thinking of changing that. Would Hifi Lite be better, or should I try a non alfalfa based chaff? Any recommendations? I'm not sure about the A&P fast fibre as sometimes I get her brought in if I'm working late, and on those days I need to make her feed up in the morning and leave it in the box for her coming in at night.

Our YO supplies the hay but he buys it in so it can vary according to where he's sourced it from, so I'm not sure if it would be worth getting the analysis done as the next bale might be completely different. Where do you send it to get analysed - can anyone provide a link?
I am not aware of any of the other horses at the yard having problem feet - if the hay/grazing was poor would others not be affected? Her field mate gets no hard feed whatever just grass and hay, and her feet are fine.

I have actually started to suspect that she might be borderline EMS and am getting her blood tested next week. Is there any link between EMS and thin soles?  I know they are more prone to laminitis. 
I could go on forever about this but will spare you any more of my worries. 
Anyway thanks to OP for bringing up this subject and to everyone who replied with such useful ideas.
		
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Re chaff, you can get Dengie molasses free, with or without alfalfa, it is very palatable.
I use it with Fast Fibre and linseed, it makes it more of a feed rather than a mush.
I make up two feeds at a time, as he is fed by the YO, it is fine, it would be better to make fresh on warm summer days, but then, only one feed will be needed.
If leaving a feed in the box, I throw some hay on top to prevent birds cra###ing on it.
I suggest you try the pro supplement, but 
FF and linseed as well. Really as you have an udefined problem a forage analysis would seem a good idea.
Make sure you analyse some haylage from one or two batches of hay, and a bit of grass!
forageplus do analysis, but you really need the diet recommendations which is an extra charge.


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## Miss L Toe (15 January 2012)

saddlesore said:



			Thanks again guys. Sadly, horse came in lame today  and is now on box rest to let his feet dry out a bit before doing anything else. Phoned my vet, but they are emergency only on a Sat and he didn't feel that this was an emergency  So on his advice, horse to be box rested until Monday or Tuesday and if no improvement then to go for xrays to examine extent of damage, and if he's improving then he says its prob more of a managment issue like you guys have said. 

Couple of questions - how do you feed micronised linseed and where do you get it? Also, am going to invest in hoof boots for over his shoes whilst hacking atm until things improve - can you recommend me any? 

Thanks again for all your help - fingers crossed! x
		
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The linseed meal is a palatable powder, it is a slow release source of energy [oil=fat], 10 kgs from Equimins or 25kg from Charnwood Milling.
I would try to get him barefoot, get Cavallo boots [cheapest and fine for light work] [use gents socks or Boa Gaiters instead of gaiters supplied], personally I would rather wait for two weeks to see how things are before the  X-rays, as the danger is that the vet will say "heartbar shoes" and you are rather stuck with his advice,  or you will annoy him. If your horse is not so lame in two weeks, you can say, OK this is working, so I will continues with the barefoot and boots idea for a few more weeks.
In the meantime I suggest you put horse on two Danolin per day for up to four days,  to prevent pain, and reduce inflammation. Vet should be encouraged to help, but if you want to take shoes off and work that way, you are going to have to make your opinion clear.
Make sure he has a dry bed, and is standing on shavings as long as he is lame, try to be there when farrier takes off shoes as you want to know if he has white line disease or thrush. I f you are going to join the "Barefoot Brigade" you will need to inspect those feet every day.


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## saddlesore (15 January 2012)

Hi MLT, barefoot is something that I will consider for the future, but not at the minute. He has enough to deal with imo without adding more change/trauma into the mix. My biggest issue/s with barefoot is that he lives out, and I live on the west coast of scotland. So his feet would struggle even more with shoes off. From what I've read on here their diet needs managed to the nth degree which really doesn't suit me. He's liveried 30 mins away from me and doesn't catch for other people, so a once a day visit is all I can manage. I also hack a lot, and not all of the going is very good.

As such, I'd rather leave him shod, but improve his diet so allow him to grow better/more resiliant feet.


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## cptrayes (15 January 2012)

TigerTail said:



			Im fairly convinced that the company name 'NAF' is a hidden in plain sight joke at the expense of all their customers - never touch their products with a barge pole!

Most of the barefooters on here feed some variation on micronised linseed, a non mollassed chaff (readigrass in my case) and pro hoof.
		
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Ummmmm "most barefooters" doesn't include me    I feed NAF haylage balancer because it contains yea-sacc and a probiotic that suit my boys well and are cheaper than buying separately and I get a "free" all round vit and min top-up in the same bucket.  They have done very well on it, including one who is sensitive to daytime grass in summer and one who is an outright laminitis risk. I don't feed any chaff but I do feed molassed sugar beet and molassed (but not much, they don't taste sweet) cheap own-brand pony cubes.

I do supplement more magnesium and also copper, the copper due to a heavy excess of both iron and manganese in my water supply.

I also recommended NAF haylage balancer to the owners of my Iberian, _extremely_ grass/carbohydrate sensitive, navicular rehab and he is also doing very well on it. And to a friend who has four hardworking barefoot horses who also do well on it.


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## amandap (15 January 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Ummmmm "most barefooters" doesn't include me    I feed NAF haylage balancer because it contains yea-sacc and a probiotic that suit my boys well and are cheaper than buying separately and I get a "free" all round vit and min top-up in the same bucket.  They have done very well on it, including one who is sensitive to daytime grass in summer and one who is an outright laminitis risk. I don't feed any chaff but I do feed molassed sugar beet and molassed (but not much, they don't taste sweet) cheap own-brand pony cubes.

I do supplement more magnesium and also copper, the copper due to a heavy excess of both iron and manganese in my water supply.

I also recommended NAF haylage balancer to the owners of my Iberian, _extremely_ grass/carbohydrate sensitive, navicular rehab and he is also doing very well on it. And to a friend who has four hardworking barefoot horses who also do well on it.
		
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LOL! I do think a lot of us talk about more difficult/sensitive horses. There are many more stonking barefoot horses out there who have owners without a care in the world.
Forums do tend to give a minority experience because we mostly talk about problems.


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## pines of rome (15 January 2012)

Yes, my friend,s old TB never has a problem, he is now retired but has never had problems, only gets a farrier trim about 3 times a year, she feeds him anything and he has as much grass as he likes! You can bring him in over gravel and concrete and he isn,t at all footy and this was a horse that had such bad feet he couldn,t keep shoes on which is why they came off!


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## Miss L Toe (15 January 2012)

I live West of Scotland, and my boy is b/foot, though he is stabled and hacked on a tarmac road every day. His feet do not smell as they did when shod, and he has great grip on roads. Also I don't have to worry if he kicks a horse in the field, or that he will pull off his hoof wall with the shoe, and its cheaper, though I spend more on bedding the total feed bill works out at the same as it ever did, he always got a magnesium supplement [Steady up from  Feedmark]
The reason we are trying to push you toward the barefoot idea is to allow those feet to grow and strengthen without the wearing of "crampons" which are rigid steel bands nailed through hoof wall and effectively trying to work on a naturally flexible structure.
This is a good time because you won't be able to ride him until he is sound anyway. You need to ask someone to walk him up and down [when he is sound], and see if he is landing heel first or toe first, see Rockley farm videos. http://www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/RockleyFarm/Rehabilitation.html


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## Miss L Toe (15 January 2012)

saddlesore said:



			As such, I'd rather leave him shod, but improve his diet so allow him to grow better/more resiliant feet.
		
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There are three variables of which diet is one, exercise is two and trimming the hoof is the third.
We tend to shoe because a horse has a problem, when in fact we should be sorting the problem.
Shoeing does make them less sensitive and that is why most people go for it, barefoot may never suit you, but if you don't try it you will never know. If he is to be stabled for a few weeks and walked out in hand or turned out in the arena he won't need shoes on. It is much easier to put them on than to remove them, we all know that, but it may be that a radical alteration to his management is needed, just a few days in a stable and then returning to same thing won't work, and if the X-rays show a problem you will be asked to go further down the road to specialist shoeing, so it gets further and further away from a natural solution.
Many of the posts on here are from people who just took off the shoes, then asked what to do, its not an easy answer for some, but if you look at the Rockley site you will see that they specialise in horses which have had every treatment under the sun and are still lame. They usually improvement within a few weeks, and most are sound after a few months of barefoot management.


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## Oberon (15 January 2012)

saddlesore said:



			Hi MLT, barefoot is something that I will consider for the future, but not at the minute. He has enough to deal with imo without adding more change/trauma into the mix. My biggest issue/s with barefoot is that he lives out, and I live on the west coast of scotland. So his feet would struggle even more with shoes off. From what I've read on here their diet needs managed to the nth degree which really doesn't suit me. He's liveried 30 mins away from me and doesn't catch for other people, so a once a day visit is all I can manage. I also hack a lot, and not all of the going is very good.

As such, I'd rather leave him shod, but improve his diet so allow him to grow better/more resiliant feet.
		
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That is fair enough and I agree that leaving the shoes on while you tinker with the diet is a good idea. My trimmers live in the Shetlands (but still come to the NW for me by popular demand) and a couple of years ago, I remember they consulted with someone on my yard with the same issue as yourself. With such a compromised sole, they also recommended leaving the shoes on but tinkering with the diet. The horse has been sound since. 
I'm not suggesting pulling the shoes wouldn't be highly beneficial for such a horse in the long run - but it isn't the only way to go initially.

The diet in a BF horse doesn't need to be tinkered to the nine degree.

But we routinely feed commercial feeds that are absolute crap while keeping them on forage that is overgrazed, stressed and chronically unbalanced in minerals (which are essential).

To be honest, I am continually amazed that most horses function as well as they do! We are ridiculously unfair to them when it comes to diet. It's like feeding a child on ready meals.

When we remove the shoes from a horse, the mirror gets held up very sharply and they will tell us in no certain terms if there is a problem. 

I cannot over emphasize the importance of diet in ANY horse, not just a BF one. It's not difficult at all - it's about letting go of the feed company's jargon and keeping it as simple and helpful as possible. 

(also - Fast Fibre soaks in two minutes, so it's super convenient if you are in a rush...but you can also soak it beforehand).

I have two BF horses (one is elderly), two dogs (whom I feed Raw) a family and a full time job with lots of overtime (I am also studying too).

A friend will bring in the horses sometimes when I am working but I do everything else on my own.

Believe me - a healthy BF horse with a diet that allows them to build tissues adequately and  keeps their immune system powerful is MUCH less work than an unhealthy one at risk of bruising and infections


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## Brownmare (15 January 2012)

I have been in exactly your situation with my tb mare Belle. She had never had great feet but I'd managed to improve them to a decent standard by feeding Formula4feet. We then moved house to set up our own livery yard and farm and after a few months her feet went downhill. I eventually worked out that any mineral deficiencies in the grazing were compounded by feeding haylage that was also grown on the farm - is this the case with your yard too? Anyhow, Belle's soles were thin enough to flex on thumb pressure and "there was no way she'd cope barefoot"  but when my Farrier broke his pelvis and the stand-in lamed her I had no choice and pulled her shoes just until she came sound / Farrier was back in action. I then looked at her diet  and got our haylage analysed and a feed plan done by Forageplus (our forage is low in magnesium, phosphorus, copper and zinc) I got the advice of a barefoot trimmer who fitted hoof boots for me and I walked her out inhand as much as she could cope with. Nine months later you wouldn't believe her hooves belonged to the same horse! Not only have her soles thickened but her heels have come back and her toes are shorter with the dorsal wall at a steeper angle and the old white line separation is almost grown out. Most importantly though she can happily cross rough stony ground and I'd never now put shoes back on  Good luck with your horse but please don't discount barefoot x


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## Brownmare (15 January 2012)

I should also say that I am currently taking a second horse barefoot and when I got him the first thing I did was have a new set of shoes put on and spent the next six weeks getting his diet right and treating his thrush before removing his shoes. He is reasonably fit and his feet can now cope with an hours hack of which half is roadwork and half grassy tracks. I haven't yet put boots on him but I will in a couple of weeks as I'll be upping his exercise more and over some rougher ground. Even after only 5 weeks barefoot there are noticeable improvements in his hooves...


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## saddlesore (15 January 2012)

Brownmare - very interesting! Yes the haylage is also cut from the yard's land....... curiouser and curiouser (said Alice). Wonder if buying in hay to supplement is a good option then? 

Oh, and update for others. Vet is going to check him tom, I'm sure he'll just confirm thin soles but would be happier knowing that for sure. I have also ordered prohoof and linseed to add to his feed. Have to say he looked much more comfortable today after only 24 hours box rest, so hoping that a weeks rest, then slowly build up t/o and walk only exercise on good surfaces, combined with improved diet should equal healthier/happier horse! I will also invest in hoof boots to wear over his shoes whilst hacking atm. 

Barefoot hasn't been written out, but shelved at the minute. Want to sort out the immidiate issues first. 

I cannot thank you all enough for your help and suggestions - I was so stressed and worried and feel much better now that I have a plan of action!


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## Brownmare (15 January 2012)

I considered buying in haylage - for about a nanosecond  but decided I'd rather have control over quality of production, fertiliser, herbicide etc and correct any deficiencies in the form of supplements given that I'd be unlikely to manage a perfect balance or even a consistent one with a bought in supply although it would probably iron out the worst deficiencies it could equally make them worse!


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## Tiffany (15 January 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			I suggest you stable at night on clean dry shavings, feed 20gm of biotin, consider researching barefoot, but first you need to get him on a solid diet, forget Happy Hoof as a good thing for feet, its a marketing ploy!
The basic barefoot daily diet is hi fibre low sugar, and additional minerals which must be balanced.
80-120gms micronised linseed meal [Equimins]
0.5 to 1kg Fast Fibre [Allen and Page]
A hoof supplement which will provide 20 gms of biotin plus MgO, available at Equimins, as is advice.
Assume the diet is low in Magnesium,  you need to feed a balanced mineral supplement, targeted at hoof growth.
 I use Dengie non molasses lo alfalfa chaff
Try to exercise on the road every day to get blood flow and encourage healthy hooves, you must get rid of any disease and have a good farrier.
		
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Out of interest why is Happy Hoof so bad when it's recommended for ponies/horses with laminitis?


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## Oberon (15 January 2012)

Tiffany said:



			Out of interest why is Happy Hoof so bad when it's recommended for ponies/horses with laminitis?
		
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It is recommended by The Laminitis Trust, for which the feed company's donate happily.
	
	
		
		
	


	





It is a mixture of straw, alfalfa, grass, mint, garlic and soya oil with added vitamins and minerals with a starch level of 4% and a sugar level of 3%....so that's 7%. 

It is under the 10% recommended.....but if you add what may be in the forage too - it's all going to add to too much.

It has molasses in the hidden guise of Mogolo, which they claim is a low sugar alternative to molasses for laminitics.
	
	
		
		
	


	





Molasses is 47% sugar. Mogolo is 40% 
	
	
		
		
	


	




.

I am aware I sound like a paranoid schizophrenic but the feed companies are not interested in keeping your horses healthy. They are interested in making a profit.

And the Laminitis Trust do more harm than good by recommending inappropriate feeds and out dated advice. 

Better sources of info are the Cushings and Insulin Resistance Yahoo Group and the SaferGrass website. Yes they are American......but at least they haven't been bought.

A laminitic horse needs forage under 10% sugar and a feed that provides plenty of magnesium, zinc and copper without too much iron getting in the way. 
They also benefit from Yea-sacc and possibly a course of charcoal to get over the initial hump.

What they DON'T need is a bag of feed with molasses and a bunch of mould inhibitors

PS I used to feed HappyHoof years ago. My horse's loved it - so it MUST be bad for them


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## Miss L Toe (16 January 2012)

Tiffany said:



			Out of interest why is Happy Hoof so bad when it's recommended for ponies/horses with laminitis?
		
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It is not SO BAD, but listing a pinch of biotin as an ingredient is a scam, horses need  20gms per day, which would double or treble the cost of a bag of chaff.
I am not sure of the sugar content, but ideally we are looking for 3 to 5% as in Quick beet, which is an alternative source of fibre.


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## AdorableAlice (18 January 2012)

Really interesting thread with loads of advice and experiences.  I am going to throw a spanner in.

There will always be horses with thin soles accompanied, more often than not with collapsed and or sheared heels.

Take a look at Soviet Song's history.  That horse would not have wanted for anything, but her feet remained crap all her racing life and when I was lucky enough to see her last summer her feet were still crap.  She lives in luxury, is looked after by the most experienced horsemen possible and is worth millions, but her feet are what nature gave her and have to be lived with.

I had a big ID horse with very flat feet and I had to accept if he was to stay sound he could not be allowed onto rough or firm ground.  He was shod with very wide flat iron to support him and if he trod on anything more than a pea sized stone he was hopping for the next 6 steps.  Luckily he did a decent dressage test, always on a surface of course.  Hacking was an hour of stone spotting, no off roading on rough tracks and no turnout on hard ground or frosty ground.  His feet were all white, flakey and soft.

My farrier, who is one of the best in the UK and the holder of many championships told me owners can do a lot to help poor footed horses but cannot not change the conformation of a horse and if nature has provided a flat footed/shallowed sole then so be it.  Frustrating for the owner and I think these poor footed animals should not be bred from, unless of course, you happen to own Soviet Song.  No foot no horse.


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## Nocturnal (18 January 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			if nature has provided a flat footed/shallowed sole then so be it.
		
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AdorableAlice said:



			but her feet are what nature gave her and have to be lived with.
		
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I don't mean any offense, but I find it so sad and frustrating that people can still think like this despite the wealth of evidence to the contrary .


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## Clava (18 January 2012)

Nocturnal said:



			I don't mean any offense, but I find it so sad and frustrating that people can still think like this despite the wealth of evidence to the contrary .
		
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Totally agree, hooves change dramatically given the right conditions, flat / thin soles are not a set condition.


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## Clava (18 January 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			My farrier, who is one of the best in the UK and the holder of many championships told me owners can do a lot to help poor footed horses but cannot not change the conformation of a horse and if nature has provided a flat footed/shallowed sole then so be it.  Frustrating for the owner and I think these poor footed animals should not be bred from, unless of course, you happen to own Soviet Song.  No foot no horse.
		
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How alarming that such an acclaimed farrier seems to be so lacking in his education.


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## Bluejazz (18 January 2012)

not sure if been said already, but get farrier to put gel pads on the feet. They fit between hoof and shoe and won't move between shoeings. I've got this problem with my mare and have successfully kept her sound for last 3 years by doing this. Protection is the best method.


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## paddy555 (18 January 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			Really interesting thread with loads of advice and experiences.  I am going to throw a spanner in.

There will always be horses with thin soles accompanied, more often than not with collapsed and or sheared heels.

Take a look at Soviet Song's history.  That horse would not have wanted for anything, but her feet remained crap all her racing life and when I was lucky enough to see her last summer her feet were still crap.  She lives in luxury, is looked after by the most experienced horsemen possible and is worth millions, but her feet are what nature gave her and have to be lived with.

I had a big ID horse with very flat feet and I had to accept if he was to stay sound he could not be allowed onto rough or firm ground.  He was shod with very wide flat iron to support him and if he trod on anything more than a pea sized stone he was hopping for the next 6 steps.  Luckily he did a decent dressage test, always on a surface of course.  Hacking was an hour of stone spotting, no off roading on rough tracks and no turnout on hard ground or frosty ground.  His feet were all white, flakey and soft.

My farrier, who is one of the best in the UK and the holder of many championships told me owners can do a lot to help poor footed horses but cannot not change the conformation of a horse and if nature has provided a flat footed/shallowed sole then so be it.  Frustrating for the owner and I think these poor footed animals should not be bred from, unless of course, you happen to own Soviet Song.  No foot no horse.
		
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what a sad post. So frustrating that the message just isn't getting through,.
Soviet Song lives in luxury. Don't you see therein lies the problem. LOL

As for your own horse well what can I say.  Many successful barefoot riders on here who have not won any championships could tell you what the problem is. Horses aren't born like this, man creates these problems.


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## muff747 (18 January 2012)

OP and Lenehorse, this was my horse six years ago, exactly the same but I live in Yorkshire. He would go lame if he lost a shoe in the field and I used boots to cover up to problem instead of tackling it and curing the problem.
He ended up with navicular, which is possibly where you're heading and in the end, even against my farrier and vet's advice, I had his shoes removed, as opposed to having a neurectomy or pts.
I had already bought four boots and pads ready for the day and they were put on as soon as his shoes came off.  We began very carefully, only bringing him out of the stable for an hour booted up, he was quite comfortable in the boots and I had rubber matting in the stable.  We built up the time gradually and then he was turned out in a small paddock where I took his boots off for a short time at first, and gradually built up the time.
His feet improved rapidly,and I was riding him again in the boots within six months, he'd been retired for the previous 12 months.  Now his hoof horn is tons thicker and his soles tough enough so that he is fine even on a gravelly track leading to the field where he is completely comfortable. So now his feet are free of the iron shackles for 22 hours a day and booted for riding.
Formaldehyde is supposed to harden the horn but again it does not solve the root of the problem.
You asked what can be done to improve thin soles and hundreds and thousands of owners have found the answer.  It is up to you now. 
You have to be very brave to take the leap of faith to do what needs to be done to improve both your horses feet, they will not make anything like the progress (if at all) when the shoes are restricting them.


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## Oberon (18 January 2012)

Nocturnal said:



			I don't mean any offense, but I find it so sad and frustrating that people can still think like this despite the wealth of evidence to the contrary .
		
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Agree.

I struggle to understand how over 60 million year's of evolution can be demolished over the course of a couple of hundered years?

I know of a horse (fed on 'conditioning feeds') who is shod on fronts only. 

The owner wanted to try barefoot (and by God, if ever a horse needs to have a break from shoes, it's this poor creature) but the vet said it's soles are too thin.
	
	
		
		
	


	





How can a horse's soles be OK on the bare hinds, but too thin on the fronts???

Genetics? Or a combination of sugary diets and shoes preventing stimulation and therefore growth?

The trees are over there near the forest


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## saddlesore (18 January 2012)

Thanks again guys. Wee update for those that are interested:

Got his front feet xrayed today. Showed up that he does have thin soles (no great surprise there) but thankfully nothing more sinister is present and his foot balance is good. Both vet and farrier have said that there has been a massive increase in foot problems in the area this year due to the phenomenally wet conditions 

I know many of you disagree but vet has advised that I use a topical hardener to protect the sole whilst it hardens, again both vet and farrier don't believe pads are the correct choice for him due to how wet the ground is, and his penchant for pulling off shoes  

He is however now on pro hoof (which he ate today with apple juice in it!) and micronised linseed. Should i still be feeding mag ox or will this alter the balance too much? 

Oh - and he will be stabled over night for the rest of the winter I reckon to let his feet dry out.

Boring road hacking for me for a while, but if it works then totally worth it.


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## Oberon (18 January 2012)

Glad about the Pro Hoof. If you contact the seller (tell her Sarah H says hi) and ask her about the magnesium, she'll be able to guide you as to whether it's going to be helpful or not.

Also lay off the sugar as this will help the soles too.

Can't agree with the vet's advice on painting on a hardener - the sole is weak because it's thin. Horse needs to lay more tissue down, not just harden what he has.


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## amandap (18 January 2012)

People believe because it's what they've been told and what they've seen, many of us have been told and seen different so we believe and know different...


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## muff747 (18 January 2012)

The farrier (whom I trailered my horse to every six weeks) allowed my horses toes to get too long and therefore his heels to collapse, competes in farriery competitions and at the time did write articles for magazines about foot conformation. 
When my horse was diagnosed with navicular syndrome, he had extensive bruising to the heel area and badly collapsed heels.  He had flat soles and very thin horn at the time.  I had been repeatedly telling my farrier that my horse had become "footy" going over stoney ground and was intermittantly lame on his left fore, but he just replied "well that's thoroughbreds feet for you" and did nothing to reverse the process.  
When the vet told me the devastating news, I was livid that my farrier had allowed this to happen, after all the questions and warnings I had given him.  but because he was very well respected and knowledgeable, I thought he must know best.  Now I know he facilitated the deterioration and did nothing to reverse it, I now feel like I should have sued him for damages.
My horse is a TB, he HAD appalling foot conformation but I have prooved to my vet and that farrier that the decline IS reversible, you just need to get YOUR head around it and release your horse from the vice of the steel shoes.  HE WILL then proove you, and your champion farrier wrong - guaranteed!  It makes me want to cry for horses like yours.  It must be like us wearing steel shoes that are two sizes too small and having them on day and night, 24/7/365 - all because you and vets and farriers will not try to see the evidence in front of your eyes
I will create another album in my profile for you to view the transformation of my TB's feet, if you can lift your head out of the sand to take a look.


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## saddlesore (18 January 2012)

Sorry, but this is what puts people off of the barefoot approach  There has been a lot of excellent and non judgemental advice given to me on this thread - including advice from barefooters, whose opinion I value, that this is NOT the right time to try barefoot. As I already stated, we have had terrible weather where I am lately and removing his shoes would render him on virtual box rest until summer - far crueller imo than allowing him to continue wearing shoes! I have been interested in barefoot having read some other posts on here, but you cannot simply assume that one size fits all and try to ram your ideals down someone else's throat. The fact that I choose to shoe my horse does not mean that I don't care! It also doesn't mean he's guaranteed to get navicular or similar - I have xrays from today to prove that apart from the state of his soles, his feet are fine.

I appreciate that the barefoot approach has worked wonders for your horse, and perhaps it is something that I will consider for the future. But it will be because I have made an educated and informed decision - not because it has been forced upon me.


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## Oberon (18 January 2012)

Muff747 - that was a bit harsh hun  I appreciate your passion but getting mad at people won't help anyone 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Saddlesore - FWIW I feel you are doing the right thing by leaving the shoes on. Fix the diet and then review what you want to do.

If you get to the point where you HAVE to remove the shoes one day, there are always things like glue on boots or Equiwraps in the trimmer's bag of tricks to make things easier on your horse.

The Barefoot Taliban will be here if you need us. Good luck.


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## foxy1 (19 January 2012)

Whoa there muff747!! This owner is doing her best for the horse that she can at the moment 

I know I keep posting this blog post but it rang so true to me, evoked such emotion, that I have to post it again 

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/01/progress-and-healthy-hoof.html


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## Clava (19 January 2012)

foxy1 said:



			Whoa there muff747!! This owner is doing her best for the horse that she can at the moment 

I know I keep posting this blog post but it rang so true to me, evoked such emotion, that I have to post it again 

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/01/progress-and-healthy-hoof.html

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I think muff747 is just frustrated with the poor advice that vets and farriers sometimes come up with, we trust them to be the real experts and sometimes they simply are not up with owners who have been there and know the reality, the ground roots info, of what makes good hooves.


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## amandap (19 January 2012)

saddlesore said:



			He is however now on pro hoof (which he ate today with apple juice in it!) and micronised linseed. Should i still be feeding mag ox or will this alter the balance too much? 

Oh - and he will be stabled over night for the rest of the winter I reckon to let his feet dry out.

Boring road hacking for me for a while, but if it works then totally worth it. 

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I'd would add mag ox and salt. A period out of the mud each day will help.

ps. My strange post last night was in response to AdorableAlice I should have made that clear.


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## saddlesore (19 January 2012)

Thanks guys 

amandap, my post was in response to muff 747. I appreciate that everyone has different views, and that people can be very passionate about things, but there are ways of saying things that don't offend people in the process


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## Miss L Toe (19 January 2012)

To be honest OP, I am sure no one wants to offend you, I have my boy barefoot, but he is stabled all the time, when he was standing in mud last year he was footy, so there is some connection between wet acid clay that we get in the West of Scotland. I have altered my management to overcome the problem, not by choice, I would want him out 4 hours per day.
People get passionate because they feel they spent years listening to the professionals, only to find out that there is another way, a way which works. It is difficult to ignore farriers and vets, and at this stage it is not a good idea for you, but he will need a change in management or he will not improve.
Personally I would hold back on the MgO in case it taints the feed, I think it is in pro hoof.
You can do leg yields and so on while out walking on the roads, walking is the best all round exercise.


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## paddy555 (19 January 2012)

amandap said:



			People believe because it's what they've been told and what they've seen, many of us have been told and seen different so we believe and know different...
		
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that is so true Amanda. Problem is how to get some of those people to see what we have been seeing in unshod horses.  not wanting them all to take their shoes off but I am sure there could be improvements in shod horses if they followed some of our guidelines.


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## Nocturnal (19 January 2012)

Cartman said:



			we use a solution of porridge oats, golden syrup and stockholm tar and wrap the hoof up inside an old tea towel. This will toughen the sole
		
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I can't quite work out if you're serious... ?


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## paddy555 (19 January 2012)

Cartman said:



			we use a solution of porridge oats, golden syrup and stockholm tar and wrap the hoof up inside an old tea towel. This will toughen the sole
		
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can you explain how this will make the sole THICKER.


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## Nocturnal (19 January 2012)

paddy555 said:



			can you explain how this will make the sole THICKER.
		
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Don't worry, I've worked it out now - definitely not serious


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## muff747 (19 January 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			Really interesting thread with loads of advice and experiences.  I am going to throw a spanner in.

There will always be horses with thin soles accompanied, more often than not with collapsed and or sheared heels.

Take a look at Soviet Song's history.  That horse would not have wanted for anything, but her feet remained crap all her racing life and when I was lucky enough to see her last summer her feet were still crap.  She lives in luxury, is looked after by the most experienced horsemen possible and is worth millions, but her feet are what nature gave her and have to be lived with.

I had a big ID horse with very flat feet and I had to accept if he was to stay sound he could not be allowed onto rough or firm ground.  He was shod with very wide flat iron to support him and if he trod on anything more than a pea sized stone he was hopping for the next 6 steps.  Luckily he did a decent dressage test, always on a surface of course.  Hacking was an hour of stone spotting, no off roading on rough tracks and no turnout on hard ground or frosty ground.  His feet were all white, flakey and soft.

My farrier, who is one of the best in the UK and the holder of many championships told me owners can do a lot to help poor footed horses but cannot not change the conformation of a horse and if nature has provided a flat footed/shallowed sole then so be it.  Frustrating for the owner and I think these poor footed animals should not be bred from, unless of course, you happen to own Soviet Song.  No foot no horse.
		
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My apologies to those who were offended by my last post, it wasn't aimed at the OP so I should have quoted AA's post when answering her.
I didn't mean it to sound like I was mad either, the capitals were just to emphasise those words, and as someone said, my frustration is re AA's  prizewinning farrier who is so typical of some of the professionals I have seen working, they just do not want to know and horses are suffering badly because of professionals who are not willing to at least try new treatments.
The main thing I have learnt from my horses health problems is that vets and farriers do not know everything about every horse and also cannot know everything about their profession,  especially with the rapid rate of new research into horses health, feet and otherwise.  They simply have not got the time to keep up with every different ailment that presents as non standard or those problems that don't quite "fit into the box", like my horse.
As I said though, it is very difficult to go against your farrier and vet, but I did because I wanted to do everything possible to give my horse a chance of a comfortable retirement, if that was all he could manage.  As it happens, I got more than I wished for and was able to bring him back into work well within six months of shoes off.
OP, I'm sure things look ok on the x-rays now, but he is showing signs of his feet being unhappy in shoes and if you wait, you may end up with serious problems years down the road.  It is far harder and takes longer to come back to full soundness than if you heed the signs sooner rather than later.  Yes the minerals will help, but the main problem is the contraints on the hoof being able to flex correctly, which draws blood into the hoof and the frog pressure then pumps it back up the leg.  Please don't be put off the thought of BF due to my post, it wasn't aimed at you but at AA, my apologies.
Your boy wouldn't need to be on box rest if you ask advice about how to manage tender footed horses following shoe removal.  It is owners who are not prepared and cannot cope with bare feet, and that's what I meant about getting your head around it. I researched and asked around for months before I took the leap of faith, and I am so glad I did and my horse is too - he wouldn't be here now if I hadn't.


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## TigerTail (19 January 2012)

I understand where Muff is coming from - sometimes I think the tone of my posts can come across as dogmatic or abrasive when im just either over excited or really frustrated with vets and farriers!

My sister is a vet - she has said point blank that they do 6 weeks on hooves and nothing on barefoot, whether as a treatment or just in general.

She was busy telling me the other day that carrots are fine to feed theyre not that high in sugar......... DOES THIS GIVE YOU A CLUE ABOUT VETS AND HOOVES?!?!

So my point is, unless you have a specialist equine vet, and then one with an interest in barefoot and hooves in particular you arent getting that much of an expert opinion tbh.


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## Clava (19 January 2012)

TigerTail said:



			I understand where Muff is coming from - sometimes I think the tone of my posts can come across as dogmatic or abrasive when im just either over excited or really frustrated with vets and farriers!

My sister is a vet - she has said point blank that they do 6 weeks on hooves and nothing on barefoot, whether as a treatment or just in general.

She was busy telling me the other day that carrots are fine to feed theyre not that high in sugar......... DOES THIS GIVE YOU A CLUE ABOUT VETS AND HOOVES?!?!

So my point is, unless you have a specialist equine vet, and then one with an interest in barefoot and hooves in particular you arent getting that much of an expert opinion tbh.
		
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That doesn't surprise me at all, my vet is pro barefoot but he was unaware that wormers can affect foot sensitivity and I had to explain the thinking behind why (which is also a conversation I had with my neighbour who is also a vet and hadn't considered that an upset in the hind gut could upset the balance with the hooves). They both also don't really understand that barefoot and roadwork isn't a problem. If these basic ideas are not common knowledge with vets then other ideas will not surprsingly not got through to them yet.

Having also been told be a farrier that horse simply need shoes as they have been shod since ancient times therefore it must be true and that a flat foot is simple a flat foot I know don't expect to be enlightened much by them (I have seen my Tb's feet change shape so much that I know they are not set in stone).


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## amandap (19 January 2012)

Six weeks is very poor especially if the hoof isn't considered in the light of the rest of the horses body and physiology. 

There's this new book which vets might find useful especially as hoof problems are so common.  Hope I don't sound arrogant or dismissive. I'm only an owner and a right numpty at times.  http://www.hoofrehab.com/Care_and_Rehabilitation_of_the_Equine_Foot.htm


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## muff747 (19 January 2012)

I tried offering articles to my vet to read that seemed very pertinent to my horses problems and although he couldn't explain why he wasn't improving, he also never commented about the articles I offered and he never came up with an answer.  Some vets are too arrogant to admit they don't know and work with the owner to find an answer that fits.


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## Clava (19 January 2012)

muff747 said:



			I tried offering articles to my vet to read that seemed very pertinent to my horses problems and although he couldn't explain why he wasn't improving, he also never commented about the articles I offered and he never came up with an answer.  Some vets are too arrogant to admit they don't know and work with the owner to find an answer that fits.
		
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If they don't actually have any real barefoot training they really aren't in a good position to help and must also feel frustrated, not surprising that so many support the shod altenatives if this is what they are taught.


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## muff747 (19 January 2012)

So you would think, if they get no training in BF, they would be interested in results, if only as an alternative to offer clients, or at least think about it.


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## Clava (19 January 2012)

muff747 said:



			So you would think, if they get no training in BF, they would be interested in results, if only as an alternative to offer clients, or at least think about it.
		
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Mine is interested in learning and we discussed at length the implications of worming and he thought it useful and valid comments. I think admitting there is a missing part of their knowledge must be quite hard to deal with as they are there to provide the answers.


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## saddlesore (19 January 2012)

Luckily my vets practice is an all equine practice, so feel pretty comfortable with what he saw on the xrays. He also didn't seem overly concerned about the thin soles given the state of the weather we've had round here - as stated by MrsD - its been a particulary wet one!

My mangement has changed to the extent that I hope the soles will improve, and at that stage I may consider other options. I've been wanting to get his backs off for a while but farrier reckoned it would be better to wait till the ground dries up a bit.

Trotted my boy up today and he's sound  so going to leave him in again tomorrow (that'll be a week of box rest), put him out for a couple of hours on sat and sun and all going well, increase that to about 6 hours of daily t/o. Feet will be disinfected with prodata hoof dressing once a week, hardener on two or three times, and he is now on the pro hoof and the micronised linseed. I will hack him out at walk only on the tarmac for the next few weeks and if he's staying sound, then start introducing trot etc.

I really cannot thank you enough for your help - there is a wealth of knowledge on here that will hopefully make my boy much happier and healthier


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## TigerTail (19 January 2012)

muff747 said:



			So you would think, if they get no training in BF, they would be interested in results, if only as an alternative to offer clients, or at least think about it.
		
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hmm well speaking for my sis alone, no, cos shes big animals (farm) not horses and hates being told anything by her little sister 

OP I really dont get this thing about not taking shoes off because its wet, the mud squishes up into the frog and creates stimulation. When the ground dries out it will then be hard so the farrier will then be saying its going to bruise his feet and be too harsh 

I do applaud you though for taking the steps you have. Do check the labels on the hoof hardener to make sure it doesnt have formaldehyde or anything else necrotising in it. Im amazed at the vet promoting a hardener, id love to know on what grounds!


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## muff747 (19 January 2012)

BazzaEXTREME said:



			I'm a vet and I certify that amputation would be advisable at this stage of the proceedings.
		
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Ha ha Bazza, are you any relation to Cartman by any chance?  He's a joker too


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## saddlesore (19 January 2012)

Thanks TT, no no formaldahyde. Its the hard and healthy one by equimins. Vet advised it to toughen the sole to protect it until it thickens. Seems reasonable enough to me


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## TigerTail (19 January 2012)

saddlesore said:



			Thanks TT, no no formaldahyde. Its the hard and healthy one by equimins. Vet advised it to toughen the sole to protect it until it thickens. Seems reasonable enough to me 

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The trouble is its a bit like putting nail varnish on your finger nails, have you got friends who always have painted or fake nails on? If you see their nails without the polish on theyre usually in a right state. Painting stuff onto the horses hoof does the same thing, and isnt toughening inthe sole. Only work which causes more blood flow to the area, therefore encouraging quicker growth, can do that.

You can also cause fungal infections by sloshing these products on as they stop the hoof from being able to breathe (remember how the girl in gold finger dies because she is painted all over and her skin couldnt function?) 

You cant significantly improve or alter the hoof structure by painting stuff on or nailing shoes on - it can only be done by allowing the hoof to just be and function as a hoof, rather than a man made/altered product.


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## Clava (19 January 2012)

TigerTail said:



			You cant significantly improve or alter the hoof structure by painting stuff on or nailing shoes on - it can only be done by allowing the hoof to just be and function as a hoof, rather than a man made/altered product. 

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I think this is the point, I can't see how the soles will thicken without stimulus, but I can see how a hardener could make a sole more brittle and less able to flex as it needs to.


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## AdorableAlice (19 January 2012)

Muff747, please don't cry for my horses, they would be embarrassed.  My dreadful, in your view, farrier shod them for 18 and 22 seasons of hunting, and then kept them, shock horror, barefoot in happy retirement until they left me to hunt in the sky aged 29 and 30 years of age.

The big boy I mentioned had flat feet, was fed and shod according to his needs and received dedicated care from a very well known othopedic vet.  With the appropriate care he was a very succesful dressage horse and heavyweight show hunter.  He retired and remained shod with flat iron to help his flat feet support the 18.2hh that stood above those feet.  

I agree that much can be done to help horses with poor foot conformation and did not dispute that comment.

My, in your opinion, ignorant farrier, remains the only person I would allow near my present horses feet.  Our combined ignorance has taken us to HOY's
twice, many championships and supremes and I was delighted when my horse took the best shod hunter at last Royal Show.

I hope anyone who is trying to help horses with poor feet every success, but I stand by my comments of no foot no horse and do not breed from horses with poor feet.

My final horse has just been bred and is by one of the very best RID stallions in the country out of a mare that I have never shod.  The stallion's feet are so good he competes barefoot.  My hope is the youngster will have rock hard trouble free feet for my ignorant farrier to shoe.


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## Clava (19 January 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			Really interesting thread with loads of advice and experiences.  I am going to throw a spanner in.

There will always be horses with thin soles accompanied, more often than not with collapsed and or sheared heels.


I had a big ID horse with very flat feet and I had to accept if he was to stay sound he could not be allowed onto rough or firm ground.  He was shod with very wide flat iron to support him and if he trod on anything more than a pea sized stone he was hopping for the next 6 steps.  Luckily he did a decent dressage test, always on a surface of course.  Hacking was an hour of stone spotting, no off roading on rough tracks and no turnout on hard ground or frosty ground.  His feet were all white, flakey and soft.

My farrier, who is one of the best in the UK and the holder of many championships told me owners can do a lot to help poor footed horses but cannot not change the conformation of a horse and if nature has provided a flat footed/shallowed sole then so be it.  Frustrating for the owner and I think these poor footed animals should not be bred from, unless of course, you happen to own Soviet Song.  No foot no horse.
		
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The fact that your horse couldn't step on anything more than a pea sized stone, no off road hacking on rough paths even when shod and had feet which were flakey and soft seems to say a lot about how approapriate his management was and how well advised you were by your farrier who also believed that there was nothing to be done for a flat footed horse as it was it's "nature" and "so be it".


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## Miss L Toe (19 January 2012)

muff747 said:



			I tried offering articles to my vet to read that seemed very pertinent to my horses problems and although he couldn't explain why he wasn't improving, he also never commented about the articles I offered and he never came up with an answer.  Some vets are too arrogant to admit they don't know and work with the owner to find an answer that fits.
		
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Hear Hear, I lent  Feet First to both my last YOs they never opened it, both have horses with problems. but apparently, it is me who is "out of line", as usual.
Vet tells me it is the farriers job to look after feet [what a leap of faith]
It is not arrogance, it is youth, when I was newly qualified, I knew everything by the book., now I know a fair bit, but am open to new ideas.
One horse owner suggested I should keep my horse  in a muddy field because he was feeling footy, I explained he had to toughen up, so was out on a stone and mud track where he could toughen up.


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## cptrayes (19 January 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			The big boy I mentioned had flat feet, was fed and shod according to his needs and received dedicated care from a very well known othopedic vet.  With the appropriate care he was a very succesful dressage horse and heavyweight show hunter.  He retired and remained shod with flat iron to help his flat feet support the 18.2hh that stood above those feet.  

My, in your opinion, ignorant farrier, remains the only person I would allow near my present horses feet.
		
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If you always do what you always did then you will always get what you always got.



AdorableAlice said:



			Our combined ignorance has taken us to HOY's
twice, many championships and supremes and I was delighted when my horse took the best shod hunter at last Royal Show.
		
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In my experience, horses fed to carry the "condition" required for success at that level in the show ring (heavyweight classes being the worst) have a diet which is very likely to result in poor quality laminae/horn connection and correspondingly flat feet.  The flatness of the feet is not much related to the shape of the pedal bone, it is related to the height of suspension of that bone inside the hoof capsule. I have never failed to see a correction of flat feet with a correction of the diet, though I will agree that with some horses those dietary corrections are much more difficult than others.


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## amandap (19 January 2012)

cptrayes said:



			If you always do what you always did then you will always get what you always got.
		
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This is so very true.  

All horses are different in so many ways. What they are sensitive to in diet and emotionally, what the internal hoof structures are like now, how developed (or not) the internal structures are, how healthy the frog is... there are the basic never changing rules (low sugar, high fibre diet, quality hoof loading to be encouraged and enabled for eg.) but the rest is so very individual. Two horses on exactly the same diet, management and exercize regime may well not respond the same way.


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## muff747 (19 January 2012)

My final horse has just been bred and is by one of the very best RID stallions in the country out of a mare that I have never shod.  The stallion's feet are so good he competes barefoot.  My hope is the youngster will have rock hard trouble free feet for my ignorant farrier to shoe.[/QUOTE]
Congratulations on all your successes.
I am pleased your horses lived out their retirement shoeless.  Did you notice any difference in their feet once they had been turned away?  Did your ID get that chance, his feet would have improved a great deal if he had.

I was also pleased to see you have picked the offspring of barefoot *competing* parents and you acknowledge it should have rock hard feet.
So why would you think it would need to be shod? If the stallion competes, why shouldn't yours be able to?
Please at least take a look at the Rockley Farm web site.  http://www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/RockleyFarm/Blog,_articles,_links.html
They compete in eventing and go hunting over Exmoor on their barefoot horses.
I agree some horses don't appear to suffer hoof damage with steel shoes but why would you want to go to the expense of finding out if your youngster is one of those lucky horses?  There is a ton of articles now showing evidence of damage to the legs and body from the concussion the shoes cause.  I assume if you  hunt, you will do lots fittening and hardening legs trotting on roads?  
Have you considered whether to give him the chance and see how he goes on without before you decide if he needs shoes,  or do you feel so in awe of your farrier that if he says it's time to shoe, you will just let him?


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## moorman (19 January 2012)

I have kept off this thread for some time but have been monitoring it and it seems that on most threads to do with the foot we end up with a discussion about the pros and cons of barefoot.
I wanted to say that I am very lucky to be able to count quite a few vets as my barefoot clients, but if a referral case comes to a situation where shoeing is thought to be the best option then we take it.
Now before every BF starts tapping away on their organic, fair trade key boards, and punching their solar powered screens.let me tell you why I say that.
It may well be the case that I would like to treat every horse referred to me using barefoot, BUT I and the vet have (I believe) to take into account whether barefoot is the best way forward for the owner at this or any time.
Yes I could stand there either defending barefoot, or attacking shoeing but I dont think it honestly helps.
I would rather put all the options to the owner, if they chose to shoe the horse I think it is my responsibility to make sure it is done in a way that is going to work to the best of its ability.
(Out of all the referral cases I only either shod or helped shoe 7 horses last year)
That said I read in one of the comments My farrier, who is one of the best in the UK and the holder of many championships
One of the reasons that I got disillusioned with farriery is due to the importance that is put on competitions. 
I do quite allot of work for one of the best farriers in the country he is a judge at many shows, and has won most of them, he is in full agreement with me that when it comes to knowledge of biomechanics and referral cases that require all possible variants of treatment, being a competition winner is not up there with studying ALL available options that can be offered to the vet and owner. 
Yes I would love every horse to be barefoot, and I think every horse would to, but until that day I will fight my corner but also fully respect the serious, caring owner and vet that have genuine reasons for wanting something that they feel as strongly about as I do.
Progress is a product of quality debate


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## saddlesore (19 January 2012)

Moorman -  can I just ask, is it possible for a horse's sole to thicken without being barefoot? I ask as this is the first year that I have had this problem and both vet and farrier reckon it's environmental, therefore his sole must have been ok before? Also, if the sole didn't grow and regenerate without weight bearing, then why would farriers pare some of it away?

My horse is t/o (lived out, but will now be stabled at night to allow feet to dry) and exercised on a variety of surfaces, so therefore his sole must be stimulated?


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## trina1982 (19 January 2012)

moorman said:



			I have kept off this thread for some time but have been monitoring it and it seems that on most threads to do with the foot we end up with a discussion about the pros and cons of barefoot.
I wanted to say that I am very lucky to be able to count quite a few vets as my barefoot clients, but if a referral case comes to a situation where shoeing is thought to be the best option then we take it.
Now before every BF starts tapping away on their organic, fair trade key boards, and punching their solar powered screens.let me tell you why I say that.
It may well be the case that I would like to treat every horse referred to me using barefoot, BUT I and the vet have (I believe) to take into account whether barefoot is the best way forward for the owner at this or any time.
Yes I could stand there either defending barefoot, or attacking shoeing but I dont think it honestly helps.
I would rather put all the options to the owner, if they chose to shoe the horse I think it is my responsibility to make sure it is done in a way that is going to work to the best of its ability.
(Out of all the referral cases I only either shod or helped shoe 7 horses last year)
That said I read in one of the comments My farrier, who is one of the best in the UK and the holder of many championships
One of the reasons that I got disillusioned with farriery is due to the importance that is put on competitions. 
I do quite allot of work for one of the best farriers in the country he is a judge at many shows, and has won most of them, he is in full agreement with me that when it comes to knowledge of biomechanics and referral cases that require all possible variants of treatment, being a competition winner is not up there with studying ALL available options that can be offered to the vet and owner. 
Yes I would love every horse to be barefoot, and I think every horse would to, but until that day I will fight my corner but also fully respect the serious, caring owner and vet that have genuine reasons for wanting something that they feel as strongly about as I do.
Progress is a product of quality debate
		
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Moorman - you are a genuine asset to this forum!

Your comment about Farriery competitions - I believe a lot of it is about aesthetics rather than function, is that correct? And speed? Neither of which, in my opinion, is top of my list for desirable traits in a farrier. (willing to be corrected if there is more to the competitions than that)

Trina x


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## cptrayes (19 January 2012)

trina1982 said:



			Moorman - you are a genuine asset to this forum!
		
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Ain't he just 

We are lucky to have him around, I hope we can keep him.


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## Oberon (19 January 2012)

Back off bitches. I saw him first


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## Clava (19 January 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Ain't he just 

We are lucky to have him around, I hope we can keep him.
		
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I totally agree.


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## cptrayes (19 January 2012)

Oberon said:



			Back off bitches. I saw him first 
	
	
		
		
	


	




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Just off to find the Tena ladies


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## Goldenstar (19 January 2012)

That's a great post by Moorman.
I had my first visit from a barefoot trimmer at the weekend ( some of you will remember me posting when I started)
I was not sure whet to expect but was impressed by his approach which was balanced bad not at evangelical in a scary way i hope you understand what I mean.
He trimmed the feet lightly said he would like to see him in six weeks and then in six weeks again and then four times a year as in his opinion my horse will self trim as there in coarse silica sand in my school . I had been avoiding the stoney road that get us to our best hacking but he said just to go for it and the next day we did ( I lead from another horse ) and had a lovely ride round the fields and he was fine on the stones.
We talked diet but the one thing he said that really hit home was with barefoot the owner is responsible for every thing and you have monitor all the time when shod you pay the bill every five weeks and forget about it until the next time you book the farrier that really hit home with me as now I am always looking at his feet looking for changes reading this and that coming on here and reading threads but before apart from being obsessed with having thrush free feet ( early stirrings of a latent barefooter) I pretty well forgot about it.


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## moorman (19 January 2012)

OK Saddlesore this is how I see it:
No Horse that I have ever known has been born with: 
a, Flat feet, b, thin soles, c, shoes on!!
So what goes wrong: well from the owners side it can be neglect, by the sounds of it we can rule that out!
From the farriers side it can be a combination of many things, one of which is that most farrier will have their way of shoeing, it might be the most beautiful thing to look at, and it may suit a tremendous amount of horses that have good feet..but, and here is the rub, it might not suit all horses.
When working with one such farrier just before Xmas I observed him going for his knife as soon as he had taken the shoe off, what are you going to do I asked take off the old sole he said, why because he doesnt need it now bearing in mind this was a flat/thin footed TB, I asked him if I could remove the old calluses he had grown on his fingers, or do you need them?
Slowly the head looked up and he smiled, then came a wonderful moment, he asked if that was what it was for.
From that moment on I/he had no problem; the horse is now just starting to grow thicker healthier soles, yes you can recreate good sole tissue, even with shoes, they have to be the right ones and they must be put on for the purpose of increasing the expansion and contraction of the foot, I will say however that I have never been able to produce barefoot soles with shoes on, but you can make a start with them on.
Blood, Blood, Blood, healthy and in good supply will give you great feet, it is all very well stimulating the feet but it will work best knowing they are able to do the most with that stimulation,
Think of it as Pilates of the foot, that is the articulation, expansion and contraction is taken to the comfortable limit that is within the horse ability. 
Hope this is not to general, but I would never get to specific without knowing all the facts and having been asked by a professional who is requesting help, mainly for the reason that if the farrier or vet  is asking then you know you are getting somewhere.


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## moorman (19 January 2012)

trina1982
I was fortunate enough to have a book published The Horses Foot and Related Problems
In it I had a section that set about putting the facts concerning competition shoeing and whether it was relevant in this day and age.
The feedback from owners was very encouraging; the response from the Farriery profession was not so flattering, I was asked politely if I would refrain from training any further Apprentices as it seemed my methods were not compliant with the status quo.
Competition shoeing is one of the evils of the farriery profession.
Go to any country show that has a showing contest and see one front foot shod by one farrier (could be the best) and the other front foot shod by another (could be the worst) hay presto in front of a full audience they have just created (by their own admittance) an unbalanced horse,
It is against all the animal welfare act stands for and should be abolished, the idea of a live horse used to show the imperfections or otherwise of a craft is not only bad for the animal, but makes a mockery of what some consider a profession that should be moving on and embracing ALL types of foot management.
Dont get me started, or is it too late!!


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## trina1982 (19 January 2012)

moorman said:



			trina1982
I was fortunate enough to have a book published The Horses Foot and Related Problems
In it I had a section that set about putting the facts concerning competition shoeing and whether it was relevant in this day and age.
The feedback from owners was very encouraging; the response from the Farriery profession was not so flattering, I was asked politely if I would refrain from training any further Apprentices as it seemed my methods were not compliant with the status quo.
Competition shoeing is one of the evils of the farriery profession.
Go to any country show that has a showing contest and see one front foot shod by one farrier (could be the best) and the other front foot shod by another (could be the worst) hay presto in front of a full audience they have just created (by their own admittance) an unbalanced horse,
It is against all the animal welfare act stands for and should be abolished, the idea of a live horse used to show the imperfections or otherwise of a craft is not only bad for the animal, but makes a mockery of what some consider a profession that should be moving on and embracing ALL types of foot management.
Dont get me started, or is it too late!!
		
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So, not a good thing then? lol

Thanks for answering my question, will try and check out your book.
Trina x


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## saddlesore (19 January 2012)

Moorman, thanks for your answer. Makes a lot of sense! Oddly enough I asked my farrier today if it was possible for him to shoe my horse without removing sole and he replied that he only ever takes 'the smallest possible amount off' (which is true, he doesn't pare them much) but now I can insist that they just get left on - for a couple of shoeing cycles anyway to allow some thickened tissue to develop.


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## muff747 (19 January 2012)

If only there were many more Moormans around - there would be many, I mean probably thousands of horses in less pain, and not suffering from "navicular" and being pts because of farriers (not all) leaving long toes and allowing underrun heels to develop and not trying to correct the problem.
In my area I see so many horses and ponies shod like this, so sad.
You are a rare breed Moorman, you are a professional who is ready to embrace new ideas and are not afraid to go against tradition.
You know, I think this "head in the sand" syndrome is a bit like the Emperers Clothes,  because the people who really should know what a correctly shaped hoof should look like i.e. vets and farriers (not all) - actually tell owners of horses with badly shaped hooves, that everything's fine and dandy - and so owners believe them.  I know, I used to be one of those owners


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## Oberon (20 January 2012)

muff747 said:



			If only there were many more Moormans around - there would be many, I mean probably thousands of horses in less pain, and not suffering from "navicular" and being pts because of farriers (not all) leaving long toes and allowing underrun heels to develop and not trying to correct the problem.
In my area I see so many horses and ponies shod like this, so sad.
You are a rare breed Moorman, you are a professional who is ready to embrace new ideas and are not afraid to go against tradition.
You know, I think this "head in the sand" syndrome is a bit like the Emperers Clothes,  because the people who really should know what a correctly shaped hoof should look like i.e. vets and farriers (not all) - actually tell owners of horses with badly shaped hooves, that everything's fine and dandy - and so owners believe them.  I know, I used to be one of those owners

Click to expand...

I have been reading about a theory by Dr Bowker in the new Ramey textbook that researchers in vet universities have studied donated horses for decades. 

The types of horses donated to a university or picked up at the 'kill market' for research are rarely young and healthy - they have often ended up there for lameness reasons.

So to conclude - most studies and research have been carried out on pathological hooves rather than anyone ever seeing an really and truely healthy hoof. The vets and farriers have got used to pathological hooves being 'the norm'.

That's one of the reasons why studying the hooves of wild horse's was so ground breaking.

There is a longer study into Brumby hooves that has recently been published - I look forward to finding the results.

No doubt it will be ignored though


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## Miss L Toe (20 January 2012)

trina1982 said:



			Moorman - you are a genuine asset to this forum!

Your comment about Farriery competitions - I believe a lot of it is about aesthetics rather than function, is that correct? And speed? Neither of which, in my opinion, is top of my list for desirable traits in a farrier. (willing to be corrected if there is more to the competitions than that)

Trina x
		
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I am always happy to try a farrier who has been around a bit, including international competitions, because it indicates an interest in the craft, and one hopes an open mind.
Having said that, the best farrier round here no longer competes [he tells me he learnt so much from other farriers], but works away with ordinary people, and works hard, he also is good with difficult horses, and is fair with £ charges, gives advice if asked, I would always refer to him if in doubt, and I also know he would consult with any good vet of my choosing. Re his speed, he actually goes pretty slowly as every nail has to be perfect, and will be removed and replaced if it goes in badly, unlike so many bad farriers who "tack em on" and drive off!
Another, [who is at examiner level] is not such a good farrier, for a while he was shoeing every horse with pretty much the same shoes and nails, apparently preparing them all for eight weeks of roadwork! Now he has come round to using specialist plates and so on, he has been all over the world, and is much respected in competition as a judge.  I would not allow him to shoe my boy.
Another who has shod my ponies  is non competitive to the point of extremes, he does a good job, but rarely comments on the feet, he now crosses himself and mutters ..... "on the dark side, on the dark side, every time we meet!" lol, at least he has a sense of humour, and only charges a tenner to rasp my boy,s front feet  back to a "perfect shape"


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## muff747 (20 January 2012)

Oberon said:



			So to conclude - most studies and research have been carried out on pathological hooves rather than anyone ever seeing an really and truely healthy hoof. The vets and farriers have got used to pathological hooves being 'the norm'.
 but I wouldn't include Dr Bowker as one of the vets that can't recognise a good foot though but I agree, vets and farriers seem to have been "brainwashed by pictures" and can't seem to think outside the box
That's one of the reasons why studying the hooves of wild horse's was so ground breaking .
There is a longer study into Brumby hooves that has recently been published - I look forward to finding the results.

No doubt it will be ignored though: (
		
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  Yes, by the professionals (not all), but not by me, I would be very interested to see it when it's published.


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## Oberon (20 January 2012)

It was Dr Bowker writing the chapter in the Ramey book Its Bowker's theory.
The findings on tge Brumby study is also in the same book


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## jowatson (20 January 2012)

I've been using Fine Frog frog and sole oil for the same thing and my horse's hooves are great. She usually gets infections as she gets holes in her sole but they are quite thick this year and her frogs are great (usually ragged and soft).


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## cptrayes (21 January 2012)

moorman said:



			I was fortunate enough to have a book published The Horses Foot and Related Problems
In it I had a section that set about putting the facts concerning competition shoeing and whether it was relevant in this day and age.
The feedback from owners was very encouraging; the response from the Farriery profession was not so flattering, I was asked politely if I would refrain from training any further Apprentices as it seemed my methods were not compliant with the status quo.
		
Click to expand...


Moorman your governing body does farriers no favours, does it. I am reminded of a study that was set up by Rockley Farm and a Veterinary Hospital farrier two years ago, which was going to compare growth of shod foot and unshod foot. The study was all agreed under rigorous principles which meant that the horses would be shod either by one remedial farrier or by their own farriers under the direct supervision of that farrier. It was all set to go, we were all very excited, and then two of the horses' farrier's refused to go ahead.

WHAT WERE THEY AFRAID OF?


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## cptrayes (21 January 2012)

Now I'm on a roll 

Have you also seen this quote, which is in Feet First and also on the Rockley blog?




			"Think for a moment what surgery was like before the invention of anaesthesia in 1842...  Imagine taking pride above all in the speed with which you wield the knife - speed was essential, for the shock of an operation could itself be a major factor in bringing about the patient's death.  


Now think about this: in 1795 a doctor discovered that inhaling nitrous oxide killed pain..yet no surgeon experimented with this.  The use of anaesthetics was pioneered not by surgeons but by humble dentists.  


One of the first practitioners of painless dentistry, Horace Wells, was driven to suicide by the hostility of the medical profession.


When anaesthesia was first employed in London in 1846 it was called a "Yankee dodge".  In other words, practising anaesthesia felt like cheating.   Most of the characteristics that the surgeon had developed - the indifference, the strength, the pride, the sheer speed - were suddenly irrelevant. 


 Why did it take 50 years to invent anaesthesia?  Any answer has to recognise the emotional investment that surgeons had made in becoming a certain sort of person with a certain sort of skills, and the difficulty of abandoning that self-image.


If we turn to other discoveries we find that they too have the puzzling feature of unnecessary delay...if we start looking at progress we find we actually need to tell a story of delay as well as a story of discovery, and in order to make sense of these delays we need to turn away from the inflexible logic of discovery and look at other factors: the role of emotions, the limits of imagination, the conservatism of institutions.


If you want to think about what progress really means, then you need to imagine what it was like to have become so accustomed to the screams of patients that they seemed perfectly natural and normal...you must first understand what stands in the way of progress"
		
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## amandap (21 January 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Moorman your governing body does farriers no favours, does it. I am reminded of a study that was set up by Rockley Farm and a Veterinary Hospital farrier two years ago, which was going to compare growth of shod foot and unshod foot. The study was all agreed under rigorous principles which meant that the horses would be shod either by one remedial farrier or by their own farriers under the direct supervision of that farrier. It was all set to go, we were all very excited, and then two of the horses' farrier's refused to go ahead.

WHAT WERE THEY AFRAID OF?
		
Click to expand...

I remember that, such a lost opportunity for everyone to learn. 

The, 'there is only one way' thinking, is a major problem to moving forward. The medical model based training also needs questioning, we don't know best, horses do and we need to listen much more to them and their responses to interventions. Sitting around waiting for science is ok but horses will suffer if we don't act now tapping into lots of experience that is available these days and finding what is best for that individual horse in it's circumstances. Horses are living beings and therefore very complex there will never be an A) B) C) answer...


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