# Does riding need to be so complicated?



## meardsall_millie (31 January 2013)

This is obviously relating to the increasing number of technical discussions rumbling along at the moment. 

Does riding need to be so complicated?

Without wishing to sound big-headed, I'm an intelligent person, I hold a responsible and well paid job. I've ridden for many, many years and have been lucky enough to ride some super horses and receive really good quality instruction. I have equine-related qualifications and my horses go pretty nicely and can generally manage to stay in a 40 x 20 arena and can carry out (pretty much) the movements required in a dressage test at the right place and in the right pace. 

NEVER, though, have I received instruction to the amount of detail that's demonstrated on *those* threads. Quite honestly, I gave up reading because my brain was haddled!

Now I do accept that riding is a bit more in depth than 'sit, pull and kick' (although does it need to be?  ) and I realise that some people will always over-analyse, however if I was lacking some confidence in my abilities, I would read those comments and run a mile thinking I would never be worthy of sitting on a horse!

Is it all getting unnecessarily complicated?  What do others think?

A


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## KatB (31 January 2013)

No it really doesnt need to be that complicated. Yes when we are doing things "correctly" we probably are engaging multiple cores, etc etc, but do we need to be that aware of it?!, no, I think not...repeating the right posture, the aids we should be using, etc will train the horse to be more responsive, and to start to read the signals we start to give when we're change posture for certain movements and make them more reactive, which surely is the reason why we train with repetition?

 I'm not sure I could give the same aid every time if I was concentrating on multiple teeny changes for each movement, and indeed, I'm not sure many top riders would either, as the tiniest muscle stiffness, twitch etc, would cause all sorts of chaos


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## Baggybreeches (31 January 2013)

Totally agree, you can't really make riding anything other than instinctive, which means the actual mechanical analysis is pointless.


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## *hic* (31 January 2013)

A bit of the old hands on "you sit on this bit when you want to go that way" "lift up from here", "tuck this bit in" "squash my hand with that bit, yes that's the muscles I want you to feel working" right from being a kid onwards to help people understand without having to get all technical works wonders in the "Oh yes of course" reaction that becomes instinctive when you know what is required. Of course it's all wildly un-PC nowadays to do so


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## TheoryX1 (31 January 2013)

No it doesnt.  Some of the detail that is gone into quite frankly makes my eyes water.  Although I am a happy hacker with a 20 year old bombproof cob, I have ridden to a reasonable dressage standard and have done a fair bit of showing as well and my daughter rides to a very good standard. Neither of us have sat and discussed the finer details of some of the things that get discussed on here.  

I do feel each to their own.  I enjoy my riding for what it is - relaxation and an escape from a very high powered and demanding career, and agree with the OP.


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## millitiger (31 January 2013)

If I thought of all of my different cores, angles, activations, drops and each individual muscle at all times, I wouldn't ever get out of halt!

Thankfully my horses are used to my more slapdash approach and understand what I mean and want most of the time


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## TrasaM (31 January 2013)

This is a question I've pondered quite a bit since I started to learn two years ago. At one level it's the simplest thing ever but when you break it down to all the little movements and actions it begins to sound more and more complex. 
Part of the difficulty stems from how we communicate the How of riding. People learn differently so different explanations are necessary in order to explain.  I'm particularly aware of this as I'm trying to help a friend ride better so I have to cast about for ways to explain to her how it should feel and what she ought to be doing. 
When I first started I read lots about the how to and the what not to do. I though that there would be the 'one' way but ended up confused because of all the different explanations and methods. In the end I realised that there are a few key skills to acquire first and then the other bits start to fall into place. 
As I've progressed I'm more aware of what various body parts are doing and make the corrections required. I'm not convinced however that the starting point, for teaching adults in particular, is right. 
However I can only relate this to my experience so I could be wrong


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

Forget riding, nothing on this planet needs to be explained in such a complex fashion! If I sent in reports written in that manner, my clients would sack me and my business would fold. And I work as a scientist (although people doing research might disagree with that). It's the most ludicrous thing I've read in a long time, and that's saying something!


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## scheherazade (31 January 2013)

Hooray for the OP!! As an aside DoD do you know anywhere that still offers old fashioned non-PC lessons. Could do with being pulled into shape without having to write an essay first!!


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## Lolo (31 January 2013)

I think discussion about how we ride, and how different things change the results, is really important. I'm a massive nerd, and will read pretty much anything in my pursuit for knowledge. My sister and I have quite long and relatively intelligent discussions about what we're told and what we read compared to what we do. 

But I think the key is to try and give knowledge in the simplest way possible. A lot of what has been ridden could be simplified and explained in a way that's more coherent and then, although stupendously detailed, it would be a more interesting read...

(simple isn't easy btw, I got pulled up on saying 'simple' a few weeks ago for a concept that wasn't simple- the explanation was hellish but was in the simplest possible terms...)


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

TrasaM, one of the most useful things a trainer has ever said to me is that all they are doing is giving me tools to put in the box. Some will work on some horses, some will work on others, some I may never need again, but I have them now to try. 

I think one of the most fundemental things riding schoolmasters (or I suppose regularly under good instruction is what I really mean) teaches you is when you're asking the right question in the right way and you need to wait for the horse to figure out the right answer, and when you're asking the wrong thing or in the wrong way and you need to change something. It's probably the most useful skill I've learnt.


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## Kat (31 January 2013)

Glad I'm not the only one who closed *those threads* in a fog of confusion!


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## Goldenstar (31 January 2013)

No it does  not ,but it does help to be self aware about how your body works.
But all the great trainers I have worked with are all teaching when it all boils down the same thing , Ride the horse forwards and keep it straight .


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## Santa_Claus (31 January 2013)

As per the rather amusing image in one of those threads if you can't simplify it you don't understand it properly 

Although you can over analyse and go in to lots of detail it's often not required. Ultimately it's all about feel and lots of subconscious muscle movements. A good instructor can simply things and all that will be needed is an instruction like 'roll your shoulders' or 'try to make your belly button touch your spine' random but they do the job in various circumstances and a lot more understandable than 'engage your lower core muscles and raise your diaphragm'


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## TrasaM (31 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			TrasaM, one of the most useful things a trainer has ever said to me is that all they are doing is giving me tools to put in the box. Some will work on some horses, some will work on others, some I may never need again, but I have them now to try. 

I think one of the most fundemental things riding schoolmasters (or I suppose regularly under good instruction is what I really mean) teaches you is when you're asking the right question in the right way and you need to wait for the horse to figure out the right answer, and when you're asking the wrong thing or in the wrong way and you need to change something. It's probably the most useful skill I've learnt.
		
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Agree. I kept on with by BHS instructor for this reason. I needed the tools in my box. I don't necessarily agree with what I'm being taught but it is effective on the horses I'm being taught on. My particular preference is for French classical riding and this I find is the most simple way of riding and suits my particular ethos with regards to horses and what I believe to be right. Meanwhile when I hack out on poorly schooled horses I have the voice of my RI in my head when I encounter various problems or challenges.


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## FfionWinnie (31 January 2013)

Does it mean I am simple or highly analytical if I can't think what threads you mean


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## Santa_Claus (31 January 2013)

I would suggest you go brush up on recent leg yield advice


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## FfionWinnie (31 January 2013)

Santa_Claus said:



			I would suggest you go brush up on recent leg yield advice 

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Ha ha I just did and thought hmmm that's what my instructor gets me to do (spiral in and out) and I've never found it a problem to get my 4yr old to do it so therefore reading a few more replies I concluded I am just doing it wrong/don't know what I am doing .


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## Santa_Claus (31 January 2013)

No no keep reading make sure you read the entire thread


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## stencilface (31 January 2013)

Whoa at the LY thread - I always thought leg yield was something that was fairly simple, my nag seems to understand my half baked aids at least! 

I think thats the problem with many people (not just horsey people) by making something sound complicated they are trying to make themselves sound more knowledgable and superior ime.  Best advice I had in an SJ warm up from a pro was 'when in doubt, kick pull and shout' that will generally get you out of most sticky situations in some manner at least!


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## BeckyD (31 January 2013)

Definitely not.  I actually had this discussion with my flat instructor on Saturday.  My reactions are no longer instinctive - when horse does something, I'm then trying to remember everything I've been told that I should be doing at that point but struggle mentally to select the right one for this situation/this instructor/this horse.  It means I now don't react in time/react wrongly/try several reactions in a row !

It's a disaster!    

I absolutely have to stop over-analysing things when encountering schooling issues.  My old instincts were the "right" ones and I have to get back to that.  

I'm going to make a concerted effort to only read about (technical) methods that go along with what my flat (and jumping as thankfully they are both on the same page) instructors teach.  This is going to be really hard for me as I am hungry for knowledge and always trying to learn more.  But it's worth a try and I owe it to my surprisingly talented horse who has been hiding his dressage skills under a bushel due to my poor riding.


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## FfionWinnie (31 January 2013)

Santa_Claus said:



			No no keep reading make sure you read the entire thread 

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Ok I have done now. (Sits with head in hands and cries. Was bad enough having one useless post childbearing core, now I find I have multiples of the blasted things). 



Stencilface said:



			Whoa at the LY thread - I always thought leg yield was something that was fairly simple, my nag seems to understand my half baked aids at least! 

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Ha ha well I have to agree - its about the only lateral thingymy I thought I understood and now, its all on its head


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## Caol Ila (31 January 2013)

I had no trouble understanding that thread.

I also think a lot of people's horse troubles come from communication fails because the rider asks for one thing and horse doesn't do it or does something else, and rider blames horse, saying it's "stubborn" (my absolute least favourite word ever used in a horsemanship context, by the way).  The real problem was the rider blocked the movement they were asking for with another part of their body, but didn't know they were doing it.  Some horses are real saints and will try no matter what, others just say, "Nah, can't be bothered if you can't," and others might freak out at the contradictory aids.  So I think that awareness of your seat/balance/alignment etc. is important if you want to achieve lightness and more complex movements.  Or if you're riding my horse who just won't go if you're in her way.  If you want to bimble around on hacks, it's probably less important, depending on the horse of course.  

I have found that when I think about riding in the more complicated way, as described by some of the posters in that leg yield thread, it makes a huge difference in how my horse goes.  By that, I mean, if I think about how my balance, where my seat is, my weight is, how I'm aligned, etc. effects how the horse is going in each instant, then I can get the horse going much lighter, much more impulsive, more more uphill and powerful.  The trouble is, it's hard bloody work, mentally as well as physically, so I don't always think about so consequently my horse and I spend a lot of our time slumming around, being a bit rubbish.  

I suppose one could potentially describe my horse as "stubborn," but in reality, she is just a good teacher and will calmly not go or obey the aid if the rider is blocking the movement or about to fall off.


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## TrasaM (31 January 2013)

BeckyD said:



			Definitely not.  I actually had this discussion with my flat instructor on Saturday.  My reactions are no longer instinctive - when horse does something, I'm then trying to remember everything I've been told that I should be doing at that point but struggle mentally to select the right one for this situation/this instructor/this horse.  It means I now don't react in time/react wrongly/try several reactions in a row !

It's a disaster!    

I absolutely have to stop over-analysing things when encountering schooling issues.  My old instincts were the "right" ones and I have to get back to that.  

I'm going to make a concerted effort to only read about (technical) methods that go along with what my flat (and jumping as thankfully they are both on the same page) instructors teach.  This is going to be really hard for me as I am hungry for knowledge and always trying to learn more.  But it's worth a try and I owe it to my surprisingly talented horse who has been hiding his dressage skills under a bushel due to my poor riding.
		
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Becky, this is exactly what I went through. I over complicated things and tried too hard. The harder I tried the worse it got. When I first started to learn to canter I did ok, to the point where RI asked if I'd done it before. Then I started to read up and get better informed and it all went to pot.  In the end I made the same decision as you. Keep it simple, listen to one set of advice and don't over think it.


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## PapaFrita (31 January 2013)

In summary; no, riding does NOT have to be so complicated. The degree of complexity increases as you advance/improve, but (to use an analogy) it's no good trying to teach advanced maths by launching into calculus before one has mastered basic arithmetic. And even if you DO the objective, surely, is to explain things as SIMPLY as possible for maximum clarity.
The first time you get on a horse it's a challenge to keep the stirrups on the ball of your foot and keep your hands remotely still, never mind apply one leg on or behind the girth or have control of your weight. Who would've got on a horse a second time if confronted with the complexity of instruction in that thread?


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## humblepie (31 January 2013)

I can remember what post it was in but I sort of made a similar comment. I never had lessons years ago and just went out and competed and seemed to do okay.

I think it is important as Goldenstar (hope right poster) says to know what your body is doing and what effect it may be having - some lunge lessons showed me how I slip to the outside and I realised how that affects the horse.


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## Britestar (31 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			, one of the most useful things a trainer has ever said to me is that all they are doing is giving me tools to put in the box. Some will work on some horses, some will work on others, some I may never need again, but I have them now to try. 

.
		
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^^ This.

And OP no it doesn't. I have personally changed my riding quite drastically over the past few years, but not due to indepth thoughts, but through sheer deterimation to do better using said 'tools' above.


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## nikkimariet (31 January 2013)

Kat said:



			Glad I'm not the only one who closed *those threads* in a fog of confusion!
		
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And me!



Goldenstar said:



			No it does  not ,but it does help to be self aware about how your body works.
		
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Agreed.


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## TPO (31 January 2013)

I think, as with all things, it can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it. That not only applies to riding but to the general management/keeping of our horses.

FWIW while the majority of it was waaaay over my head I did find the thread interesting. I'm a horse geek with the "amazing" ability to over analyse everything and ask 101 questions at all times about everything horse related; it's how I learn. 

That thread doesn't make me fear that I'll never LY again and/or have been doing it wrong my whole life but that there is more than one way to skin a cat and there is ALWAYS scope to learn and room for improvement.

Also a "baa" to Lolo's reply. 

I think I get the meaning behind this thread (i.e. how easy it would be to fall victim to paralaysis by over analysis) but some replies do read like they are having a go at one of the posters in the LY thread. Horses for courses, live and let live and all that jazz if it's not your thing.


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## LEC (31 January 2013)

I actually think riding is quite complicated as so many varying factors and influences etc but it can be explained quite simply and it can be broken down. 

But I would say its the same with any sport. When I first learnt to play rugby I was taught only the concept of run forwards, pass backwards. As the years go on the level of intracacy rises along with your knowledge.

I have no problem with detail. I do have a problem when it is written like a Mary Wanless book.


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## Baydale (31 January 2013)

Maybe we should all dig out the Ginny Leng (Elliott) book and remember their mantra: KISS, Keep It Simple, Stupid.  Now there's an example of a team effort that was thorough, well thought out and left no stone unturned...oh to be able to emulate such a successful system. 

Does anyone know if Dot Willis is still training? I remember seeing her at Windsor training someone but that was many moons ago.


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## weebarney (31 January 2013)

Stencilface said:



			'when in doubt, kick pull and shout' that will generally get you out of most sticky situations in some manner at least! 

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Ha HA . This is how i ride. Which probably explains why im no good at dressage! But seriously I think I learnt to ride and communicate with horses by just getting out and hacking my little pony all over the place when i was young, through rivers, up and down the steepest hills i could find, ended up in a bog one day, half the time just in a headcollar. We learnt to trust each other and had a great bond, and its something im going to look to replicate with my youngster ive got now.


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## Supanova (31 January 2013)

I think the answer is yes and no!  The little things about our bodies have a massive impact on our horses and lots of problems stem from rider position and posture issues, therefore I think it is very important that experienced riders appreciate these things and assess whether they can improve their aids and position cues to improve performance.  However, good riders do so many of the right things naturally that they really don't understand what all the fuss is about!  It is also bad to be over analyse too much!!  So a balance is probably somewhere in the middle !!


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## TheoryX1 (31 January 2013)

Oh My God!  I found the thread and tried to read it, but my eyes started watering.  Well, I am sure it really is complicated if you break it down to its core (sorry about the pun) elements.  I know I have written procedures with my staff on how to rent a house out and how to sell one etc and my god it took me ages.  However, do most of us really, really think about things in that level of technicality?  Really?  Honestly?  I guess not.  

Well to my horse it means that mum shoves her legs in a certain way around me and shifts her weight a little bit and it means I have to cross my legs in a certain way and bend my body in a certain way.  Simples!  I have probably got it wrong as at 20 years old and a bit stiff (him, well and me), we dont do leg yeild very often these days if at all.  However, I DONT WANT TO EXPLAINED TO ME IN DETAIL - PLEASE.  I have to go off and re-write the process on gving discounts to portfolio landlords and thats giving me a headache, so no more procedures.  PLEASE!


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## TarrSteps (31 January 2013)

To be fair (I'm getting that on a t-shirt) though, the people having the discussion are not teaching, they are having an in depth technical go 'round. Any of them might be very different standing in the centre of the school.

So is riding that complicated? Yes. So is driving a car and picking up a pencil. (Or, for you kids, using a touch screen.) If you analyse every separate movement, cause and effect, you could right a book on turning left. Has anyone watched Lie To Me? That process of facial analysis is fantastically complicated but the really interesting thing is how much most of us do it without thinking. The analysis comes in when people want to improve and/or we want to find out why some people excel and others struggle. 

Riding is similar. What is Mark Todd doing when he sits on a horse that I am not? How much of what we call 'talent' is really an innate - or lucky - grasp of those 'micro movements'? It's tricky with horses because they bring their own motivations and reactions to the party - good and bad. 

It's very interesting to watch someone very, very good ride an extremely green horse. It's amazing what they can get it to do. Is it that they innately understand how to influence the horse so it most easily understands? Is it really quick training? These are fascinating questions to me. How can we get the most done while taking the least out of our horses?


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## Kat (31 January 2013)

Supanova said:



			I think the answer is yes and no!  The little things about our bodies have a massive impact on our horses and lots of problems stem from rider position and posture issues, therefore I think it is very important that experienced riders appreciate these things and assess whether they can improve their aids and position cues to improve performance.  However, good riders do so many of the right things naturally that they really don't understand what all the fuss is about!  It is also bad to be over analyse too much!!  So a balance is probably somewhere in the middle !!
		
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I thought Kerrilli's explanation was much better. It provided an explanation of the aids, including things like weighting of the seatbone and not tipping your head, without over complicating things.


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## TarrSteps (31 January 2013)

Write not right. . .jeez!


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## TarrSteps (31 January 2013)

I will say, too, that some of the most revelatory lessons I've had have been down to changing a tiny detail. I don't think it's right to just dismiss detailed analysis out of hand. But if you are paying someone to teach you and they are confusing you, then you're not getting your money's worth!


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## Caol Ila (31 January 2013)

TheoryX1 said:



			Oh My God!  I found the thread and tried to read it, but my eyes started watering.  Well, I am sure it really is complicated if you break it down to its core (sorry about the pun) elements.  I know I have written procedures with my staff on how to rent a house out and how to sell one etc and my god it took me ages.  However, do most of us really, really think about things in that level of technicality?  Really?  Honestly?  I guess not.  

Well to my horse it means that mum shoves her legs in a certain way around me and shifts her weight a little bit and it means I have to cross my legs in a certain way and bend my body in a certain way.  Simples!  I have probably got it wrong as at 20 years old and a bit stiff (him, well and me), we dont do leg yeild very often these days if at all.  However, I DONT WANT TO EXPLAINED TO ME IN DETAIL - PLEASE.  I have to go off and re-write the process on gving discounts to portfolio landlords and thats giving me a headache, so no more procedures.  PLEASE!
		
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Then don't read the thread!  There are more threads on this forum that I don't read than ones I do.

I am interested in technical discussions on how to communicate a certain movement to a horse, but, as Tarrsteps said, what I would write in such a discussion is not what I would tell a student in a riding lesson (I'm more likely to shout things like, "Pretend you have Pamela Anderson style boobs and want to show them off!").  Though that said, each student has different requirements and ways of processing information.   There was a guy I was teaching who was studying physics at uni and who kept falling backwards and nearly toppling off every time the horse did an upward transition.  I told him in various ways to try staying in balance and moving forward with the horse.  But he said, "I don't understand.  According to the laws of inertia, when the horse moves faster, I'll be at the lower speed and can't help but fall backwards in that transition.  I don't understand how to act against that.  Do you think you can, using the laws of physics, explain to me how to not fall back when the horse changes speeds?"  

My answer was, um, I nearly failed my high school physics class.  So probably not.


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## Caol Ila (31 January 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			I will say, too, that some of the most revelatory lessons I've had have been down to changing a tiny detail. I don't think it's right to just dismiss detailed analysis out of hand. But if you are paying someone to teach you and they are confusing you, then you're not getting your money's worth!
		
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I'd say most of the big changes to my riding have come about due to changing tiny details.  For instance, I posted a picture on here of me riding and someone told me that my wrist was bent to the inside, not straight. I had no idea I was doing that.  Next time I was at the barn, I concentrated on keeping a straight line from elbow to bit (which is what I tell students to do!) and had a much more fluid horse.  D'oh!


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

As I said above - nothing on this planet needs to be explained in such a complex fashion! 

Sure riding is complicated - all motor tasks are complicated, it's why it takes babies so long to learn to do stuff like that. 

But is the best way to transfer that information to someone to use incomprehensible descriptions where adjectives and nouns appear to be being used as verbs? Probably not


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## PapaFrita (31 January 2013)

Caol Ila said:



			I'd say most of the big changes to my riding have come about due to changing tiny details.  For instance, I posted a picture on here of me riding and someone told me that my wrist was bent to the inside, not straight. I had no idea I was doing that.  Next time I was at the barn, I concentrated on keeping a straight line from elbow to bit (which is what I tell students to do!) and had a much more fluid horse.  D'oh!
		
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Right, so you straightened your arm through the wrist keeping a line from elbow to bit. You didn't extend the  flexor carpi radialis, flexor carpi ulnaris, and palmaris longus and contract the extensor carpi radialis longus, extensor carpi radialis brevis and extensor carpi ulnaris in your forearm to achieve the same result.

I googled that.

Point being that there are ways of explaining things that HELP people understand and others that don't so much.


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## kerilli (31 January 2013)

Caol Ila said:



			I am interested in technical discussions on how to communicate a certain movement to a horse, but, as Tarrsteps said, what I would write in such a discussion is not what I would tell a student in a riding lesson (I'm more likely to shout things like, "Pretend you have Pamela Anderson style boobs and want to show them off!").  Though that said, each student has different requirements and ways of processing information.   There was a guy I was teaching who was studying physics at uni and who kept falling backwards and nearly toppling off every time the horse did an upward transition.  I told him in various ways to try staying in balance and moving forward with the horse.  But he said, "I don't understand.  According to the laws of inertia, when the horse moves faster, I'll be at the lower speed and can't help but fall backwards in that transition.  I don't understand how to act against that.  Do you think you can, using the laws of physics, explain to me how to not fall back when the horse changes speeds?"  

My answer was, um, I nearly failed my high school physics class.  So probably not.
		
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But this bit really fascinates me, because the first person to clearly explain dressage to me and cut through the mystique and bull**** told me it was just down to physics... it is purely about the horse keeping its balance at all paces and changes of pace, not leaning in or out (or on 1 shoulder more than the other etc, staying upright) and weight being gradually transferred backwards as strength builds etc. Very simple explanation imho.

To your lad I'd have said that it's the same as if he's standing on a train, not strap-hanging, what stops him from staggering forwards and backwards 3m each time, as the train accelerates and decelerates? Anticipating the change of speed and bracing himself against it slightly maybe, using core muscles, weight distribution etc? In the case of a rider, apart from core strength, gripping with legs if not secure/deep enough in the saddle yet? Things an expert rider does totally automatically and invisibly. Fascinating imho.

to OP's question:
Does riding need to be so complicated? 
Umm, as TS says, it is complicated, but it doesn't have to be explained in a totally confusing way, no!
The best trainer I've ever seen is David O'Connor. One of the things he emphasises is the difference between instinct and technique. He wants to make the technique really good and therefore kind of improve the instincts along the way too, so it becomes automatic to do the right things.
I think too much technical stuff can definitely lead to good old 'paralysis by analysis'. If I tried to think about all the stuff on the other thread while doing a LY in and out it would probably by abysmal!    Thinking about a few things at once until they're part of your instinctive, innate way of doing things, then concentrating on another thing, etc, is doable. Trying to think about 15 things at once is not for most ordinary mortals!


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## Luci07 (31 January 2013)

For me, training is better when you are putting something into practise and building on it. I love riding because you can pick up the basics relatively easily. Then you carry on building on that foundation and fine tuning it. As you become more advanced, your instructions will become, by necessity, more complicated but always building on a basic understanding. I think is sounds far more difficult than it really is if you have to explain right from the beginning. Take halt as an example, when you first start you are taught to keep your leg on and squeeze gently with the rein. As you get more advanced you would be taught to half halt to prep your horse, then learn to slightly lift your seat for a better halt and feel when the horse has its hindquarters correctly underneath you before asking for the final halt. Then you want to feel that your horse has stepped correctly,  is square in the halt and relaxed in its jaw and poll. Now you guys would not think about all that, you would feel and make the necessary corrections but if you were a complete beginner you would struggle!


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## nikCscott (31 January 2013)

millitiger said:



			If I thought of all of my different cores, angles, activations, drops and each individual muscle at all times, I wouldn't ever get out of halt!

Thankfully my horses are used to my more slapdash approach and understand what I mean and want most of the time 

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Amen to ^^^this^^^ 

I read some on here and think I should just leave my horses in the stable- nevermind let my children ride under my 'instruction'  or ever dare go out to a competition where the public may see me!


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

meardsall_millie said:



			This is obviously relating to the increasing number of technical discussions rumbling along at the moment. 

Does riding need to be so complicated?

Without wishing to sound big-headed, I'm an intelligent person, I hold a responsible and well paid job. I've ridden for many, many years and have been lucky enough to ride some super horses and receive really good quality instruction. I have equine-related qualifications and my horses go pretty nicely and can generally manage to stay in a 40 x 20 arena and can carry out (pretty much) the movements required in a dressage test at the right place and in the right pace. 

NEVER, though, have I received instruction to the amount of detail that's demonstrated on *those* threads. Quite honestly, I gave up reading because my brain was haddled!

Now I do accept that riding is a bit more in depth than 'sit, pull and kick' (although does it need to be?  ) and I realise that some people will always over-analyse, however if I was lacking some confidence in my abilities, I would read those comments and run a mile thinking I would never be worthy of sitting on a horse!

Is it all getting unnecessarily complicated?  What do others think?

A
		
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It depends on what your goals are...formost AA riders who just want to play at level 0ne Dressage or the 1.15 m level of jumping it does not have to beso intense...the more you move up and advance...the more a rider must know.

Confusion can come though if one has not trained up or terms differ due to geography/language or term differences...alot of how a trainer trains reflects on how they them selfwere trained and the depth of the training they did


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## meardsall_millie (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			It depends on what your goals are...formost AA riders who just want to play at level 0ne Dressage or the 1.15 m level of jumping it does not have to beso intense...the more you move up and advance...the more a rider must know.
		
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I shall bear that in mind when next considering which level of competition I should enter.....


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

Caol Ila said:



			I'd say most of the big changes to my riding have come about due to changing tiny details.  For instance, I posted a picture on here of me riding and someone told me that my wrist was bent to the inside, not straight. I had no idea I was doing that.  Next time I was at the barn, I concentrated on keeping a straight line from elbow to bit (which is what I tell students to do!) and had a much more fluid horse.  D'oh!
		
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PapaFrita said:



			Right, so you straightened your arm through the wrist keeping a line from elbow to bit. You didn't extend the  flexor carpi radialis, flexor carpi ulnaris, and palmaris longus and contract the extensor carpi radialis longus, extensor carpi radialis brevis and extensor carpi ulnaris in your forearm to achieve the same result.

I googled that.

Point being that there are ways of explaining things that HELP people understand and others that don't so much.
		
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The differnce here is what you googled is overthinking to me....what you are describing is simply controlling the elbow angle...another words...the amount you open/close the elbowor straighten is angle control...and while somehere are making sport of it...it is those who will not reach PSG competitively is all

If one does not work the angles and learn to control them work with them...become aware of them and their purposes..IMHO...they will not go anywhere after the middle of the scales...angles are what allows the rider to employ aids/develop suppleness and muscle memory/ect

Anyone who pinches with the knee/closes the thigh/rotates the ankle pointint the toe out/stands/rides off the toe/has hands too high or low or close or wide/ect.....are not aware of the angles and their proper use

It also depends I guess on just how serious or in depth a person wants to go.

Let us face it...most riders are not immersed in their training...they have jobs...they have other obligations...riding/showing is a hobby...but those immersed in a training program are riding 1-6 horses/day under their mentor with larger goals in mind...they are the ones who doimmerse themselves in these details as they are needed for the competitive edge....and that is not for everyone.

As was stated by myself and someone else here on the thread...I am not teaching a lesson...I am not out to change the riding world..Iam not all that and a bag of empty chips..I am not even here to educate but if someone picks something while I share experiences/opinions/training styles vrs methods vrs tools'n'techniques or from any videos I may share-bonus

If my articualtion is different..please be patient...I have yet to figure out all the differing termsused as well as the difference in teaching/relating things...I am generally quick at this and will hopefull "get it"soon enough for you


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## Jontydoggle (31 January 2013)

The level of detail you need can increase as you move up through the levels and aim closer and closer to perfection. However, this is also massively down to learning preferences - for some people in depth technical discussion works, for others watching a video, for others being put into the right position hands on by their instructor - or a mixture of all of those. Everyone has their own unique style of learning that works for them. So if technical discussions aren't your style, why not do a video thread showing how to ride great halts instead? Frame-by-frame can be very helpful. :0)


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## Rosiefan (31 January 2013)

The answer to the original question is no but if you want to do complicated things while riding, the answer is possibly yes. 
I dunno, I don't ride although I love watching people ride.  However, I love cooking and if I want to cook something complicated I'll need to learn some complicated techniques and practice - a lot - if I want it to be anywhere near perfect. 
Riding is a skill and I think skills need to be honed even if you have a natural talent to start with. It depends what you want though.

What Jontydoggle has said (posted while I was answering a phone call mid-reply) is so true.


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## TarrSteps (31 January 2013)

Or get the translation of Harry Boldt's book, written by one of our very own forum members, ably assisted by another - both academics and successful upper level dressage enthusiasts. It has a large number of frame by frame analysis and what I think are some of the best ever 'pictographs' of the aids. It is also very readable and has lots of good photos!


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## ester (31 January 2013)

nieggham what's your competing level?


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

meardsall_millie said:



			I shall bear that in mind when next considering which level of competition I should enter..... 

Click to expand...

There is no tone of sarcasm/judgment/whatever in my voice...but if you are already at the PSG level....then you should know what I am speaking of....it is like the GP in jumping....if you are there....you know whether you are able continue to the WC level or not

Most amatuer riders who arebmoving up the levels stop at Intermediate in eventing....or the Grand Prix ring in Jumpers or Level 3 Dressage and stop...now that is here....do your amatuers play above those lines

I even find that those Jumnior riders doing the 1.45 have a goalin mind...the Young riders team...same with Dressage...most Junior ammies are going for the Young riders...the rest...they find their challenging comfort spot and stay since all they want to do is enjoy the horse while competeing
.
*shrugs shoulder.....I did not say all individuals were the same...you will know if your fit the description or not..but the majority of amatuer/hobby riders do not want to go into such depth as they are not looking to move up the levels and believe it should not applythem...I disagree with the theory adn see someof the results in the H/J rings as the riders go around by the seat of their pants...you can actually see who makes the effort in their riding and who does not at this level....it is unforgiving to make a mistake in a triple in height unless you have the cores to keep you on the horse...richard spooner did use hip angle....in fact..he controlled it while the cores kept those shoulders aligned over the hips for rider balance


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## TrasaM (31 January 2013)

kerilli said:



			The best trainer I've ever seen is David O'Connor. One of the things he emphasises is the difference between instinct and technique. He wants to make the technique really good and therefore kind of improve the instincts along the way too, so it becomes automatic to do the right things.
I think too much technical stuff can definitely lead to good old 'paralysis by analysis'. If I tried to think about all the stuff on the other thread while doing a LY in and out it would probably by abysmal!    Thinking about a few things at once until they're part of your instinctive, innate way of doing things, then concentrating on another thing, etc, is doable. Trying to think about 15 things at once is not for most ordinary mortals!  

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Yes, this is very much what I've figured out by myself. I have very fast reflexes which saved me quite a few times from taking a tumble during the first months I was learning. However my natural instincts weren't always correct technique wise. Just self preservation  As my riding ability improved my natural reflexes were reinforced by my newly acquired knowledge. 

For example, yesterday I spooked my horse by putting my hand on his rump and he bolted. I stopped him in about ten strides, bit blurry as I was trying not to trample a pedestrian!  His owner who was riding behind me asked what I'd done to get him to stop. All I can remember is quickly checking the likely hazards; man, large tree, road with cars. While I was doing this my body got on with it and got him back under control. All I could explain to her was that I had kept my seat relaxed and deep legs long and around him and gradually reined in his front end whilst all the time telling him in a soft voice that it was ok.  I don't know how many other little parts my reaction could be broken down into. Probably a lot more than I told her but they were no longer part of my conscious reaction.
Seem to remember reading somewhere that learning is broken down into stages. Unconscious incompetent : conscious incompetence, unconscious competence .. Though there were four stages ..memory bah.


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

ester said:



			nieggham what's your competing level?
		
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Before I put this on board...because yes you will most certainly find me in the EC records...what is it like here

If you say the level and who you trained with you are a bragging bitor does this baord actually accept people for their experiences without judgement or telling thembthey are concieted/name dropping/whatever the hell else goes on that makes a train wreck

And if I do tell it honestly...will I be accused of being an illitest or know it all...because I guarentee you I am neither

If it is possible I will willingly say....If I am about to be accused of crap like knowing it all...I would rather post and have you guys decide my merit on those alone...especially since I know what I know and just how much I really still have to learn


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## Chloe_GHE (31 January 2013)

I think 2 issues makes riding complicated:

1/ poor instruction
2/ gaps in a horse/riders education

If you follow a clear, correct educational process with horse and rider, they should be furnished with 'tools' at each stage that will be complimentary when they come to attempt the next stage of training. I think the difficulties arise when people overlook establishing the basics, and try to advance by skipping vital stages for both horse and rider, or not correcting recurring mistakes before moving on.

If you progress in a linear fashion with your/your horse's training then new challenges will be hard at first but they shouldn't be confusing, they should be the next logical step for you.

IMHO the standard of teaching in the UK is very poor on the whole, yes there are a very talented % of trainers but they are by far in the minority. There are plenty more tin pot, wannabee instructors messing up people's riding education and their horses' careers because they don't have the skill base and experience themselves in order to teach the whole picture.

If you want simple wise horsemanship you can't go too wrong imho by reading Walter Zettle, he makes life, horses, and the rider's job crystal clear in my view.

Also I think rider's need to learn to trust their own judgement, become aware of 'feel' for things, and then parts of riding start to become almost 2nd nature, and in time effortless....

that's the theory anyway


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## ester (31 January 2013)

I was only asking because you brought up the competitive levels being relevant so presumed you must be above them if that makes sense. 

Given the experience of some of the others on the afaik noone has ever been told they are conceited etc and has respected/appreciated their input.


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## PapaFrita (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			The differnce here is what you googled is overthinking to me....what you are describing is simply controlling the elbow angle...another words...the amount you open/close the elbowor straighten is angle control...and while somehere are making sport of it...it is those who will not reach PSG competitively is all
		
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Nope, it's actually straightening the wrist. But you see how it's easy to overcomplicate things. I don't understand the rest of your post.


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## PapaFrita (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			There is no tone of sarcasm/judgment/whatever in my voice...but if you are already at the PSG level....then you should know what I am speaking of....it is like the GP in jumping....if you are there....you know whether you are able continue to the WC level or not
		
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It is perfectly possible to do a half halt, ride leg yield and half pass (flying changes, turn on haunches, turn on the forehand, etc, etc) and NOT be at psg level. Therefore it should be (and is) perfectly possible to explain the mechanics in language that is accessible to the less-than-PSG rider.


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

ester said:



			I was only asking because you brought up the competitive levels being relevant so presumed you must be above them if that makes sense. 

Given the experience of some of the others on the afaik noone has ever been told they are conceited etc and has respected/appreciated their input.
		
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Fair enough I will risk it

Eventing I competed to the advanced level...I only did 2 of these competition before I realized this was not for me...this was in my Junior years....during this time I also competed to (what was then) Medium 3 in Dressage

Imoved tothe Hunter/Jumperring when I began to free lance though I still had and competed the horse in Dressage
In the Jumper ring I have competed the GP level...I had no interest in the team for this level so only tried one WC competition at Halton where I did not place due to one rail....most of my experience is GP.....funny thing is...this seems to be the place I shine in...lol.

Dressage has broken my heart...this was the sport I wanted to be the top in...but we can not all be there can we(now I ammuchmuch older too)...I still compete and to win but the Olympics are out..so I now specialize in preparing the young horse and Young rider for competition with my business partner who has even a more impressive resume than me...she was the trainer of quite a few top German riders herself aswell as competing there moving up the levels...kurs and PSG is my top out....I have enough experience and knowledge torecognise this in myself and can separate the ego/id enough to accept it as fact

I still train and further my education for the benefit of myself but also for my students...I do not want to stagnat in my teaching anymore than I do with my riding


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

PapaFrita said:



			It is perfectly possible to do a half halt, ride leg yield and half pass (flying changes, turn on haunches, turn on the forehand, etc, etc) and NOT be at psg level. Therefore it should be (and is) perfectly possible to explain the mechanics in language that is accessible to the less-than-PSG rider.
		
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In the context I used my words inIstatedif one is riding/competing atteh PSG level they generally know by then just where their talent lays or not.

Now...there is no language barrier or issue with my explaination over here...again I think the symatics areover geography/terms usedby differning countries...I do not use the loobut the bathroom sort of things....and is perfectly understood in any clinic I have done here as well.

The language of angles/cores/hand/seat/back that I use seemstobe known in countries likeGermany/Sweden/Canada/US....but that does not mean it is the same forsay...UK/Holland/France/otherplaces.....that is why I asked for patience while I figure your terms out

I have found from speaking with other competitors/coaches..it is when the rider gets to the PSG level or higher...most riders know by then if they have what it takes to move on competitvely or not....especially if they are honest with themslf


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

Cool, were you abroad as a junior then? I didn't think Canada had any advanced events?

We don't have hunter/jumper over here, what height is GP for that sport?


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## Amaranta (31 January 2013)

Hmmm I would have thought that someone riding at PSG would at least not have a horse that is in front of the vertical and not even remotely straight?

I suspect that there are people on this board who have ridden at higher levels than your good self tbh.

It is NOT cores (plural) but Core (singular), the core is the centre of the body ergo you cannot have more than one.

And OP, no riding does not need to be complicated to this extent, especially as simple an exercise as LG on a circle, it is a VERY basic movement and one I use when first teaching lateral movements to a young horse.


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			Cool, were you abroad as a junior then? I didn't think Canada had any advanced events?

We don't have hunter/jumper over here, what height is GP for that sport?
		
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Well...I would not call it abroad really.....Canadians were forced to show state side for most advance levels..heck even our intermediate comps. were limited..another factor at the time formenot to contiue since this cost $$$ and there was no return prizemoney...atleastwith the H/J you had a chance to win $$$

I did not get to go "abroad" until my early 20's

modified or starter GP classes are under the 1.25 and must be classified as such due to height.....Grand Prix averages are generally 1.45/higher


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## Wagtail (31 January 2013)

Can someone point me to a thread where it all gets technical, please? 

Personally I think that getting technical gets in the way of instinct and feel. The automatic adjustments you make without even thinking...


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## Amaranta (31 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			Can someone point me to a thread where it all gets technical, please? 

Personally I think that getting technical gets in the way of instinct and feel. The automatic adjustments you make without even thinking...
		
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Absolutely, nothing, no matter how many books you read or competitions you attend, that can take the place of instinct and feel.


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## Ahrena (31 January 2013)

I have found since I was a WP last year and now I have a new instructor, riding is a lot more complicated.

Maybe more so because I have become aware of how very subtle changes in my position or way of holding myself changes my horse's way of going dramatically. 

Before I was a WP I despise that type of tuition because I just wanted to 'get on with it', but now I feel the instant benefits its worth it. It's very hard work every time we start something new - first I have to get my head round how doing xyz effects the horse, then constantly remind myself to do it instead of my old way, but it gradually falls into place and then it becomes habit and I don't need to think about it anymore.

Today for example, we simply worked on me not letting my inside hand drift across the horse. By keeping my hand out, it stopped horse leaning into the rein, also helped me keep my inside shoulder back which improved my leg position ect. Makes my head hurt to think about it, but the instant I did it, my horse went in a way which normally takes me 40 minutes to achieve!

So for me it's complicated to begin with, but then it becomes habit and horse is instantly better.


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## Auslander (31 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			Can someone point me to a thread where it all gets technical, please? 

Personally I think that getting technical gets in the way of instinct and feel. The automatic adjustments you make without even thinking...
		
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I was about to say that!! I do not by any stretch of the imagination call myself a good rider, but I have been well trained, so I would class myself as educated, but physically incompetent. I am able to ride and improve the advanced movements - just with no style or finesse WHATSOEVER! I ride far better when I'm not thinking about what I'm doing. As soon as I start analysing/correcting/thinking too much - it all goes to pot.


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Hmmm I would have thought that someone riding at PSG would at least not have a horse that is in front of the vertical and not even remotely straight?

*And did I not say that this video showed it allon a unfit horse that was evading....did I not say it was noticale in the downward transition.....atraining videodoes not have any use if allonesee is the perfection...it is the studying of evasions and the ride out that educates....and that is what the series of videos I had did...again...if people thought they weregoing tosee perfection when I stateda training videoworking on evasions did they assume the horse would not show them*

I suspect that there are people on this board who have ridden at higher levels than your good self tbh.

*And I do not doubt it...why would I....there are probably people here who top pros too...and who have done many things I have better and worse....what is the point of this since it is simply the obvious being stated....again...I am not here to change the world of riding or convince anyone they need to ride in the same system I am trained in nor did I illudethat not riding in the same system meant a person could not ride or was crap for it...Iamhere to share ideas....discuss differencesand play...it seems tomeI have stepped on toes of some....is there a reason...I do not think I am pushing my views on anyone.....so WTH is the issue here

oh...and in no way did I say I was all that and a bag of chips....horses humbe the best...I built that bridge and got over myself loooong ago*

It is NOT cores (plural) but Core (singular), the core is the centre of the body ergo you cannot have more than one.

*to you maybe...but in the german system of training the rider(which is not the same as training the horse) it is and has been the core when used as a single and cores when used as a group and indivdual as use them*

And OP, no riding does not need to be complicated to this extent, especially as simple an exercise as LG on a circle, it is a VERY basic movement and one I use when first teaching lateral movements to a young horse.
		
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Leg yeilds is a simple exerscieand is on the lowestlevel of the training scale for both horse and riderjust asthe SI/HP/Spiral/Volte/15 or 20 m.circles

But are you telling me it is that simple for the one tempo changes...the piaffe..the passage.....it is that easy for the rider to get the rythym to match the tempo/canter pirrottes...because I personally know several Olympic riders and their trainers who would disagree it was easy tolearn...I wonder what they are doing so wrong then and yet winning on the way up


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## Amaranta (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			Leg yeilds is a simple exerscieand is on the lowestlevel of the training scale for both horse and riderjust asthe SI/HP/Spiral/Volte/15 or 20 m.circles

But are you telling me it is that simple for the one tempo changes...the piaffe..the passage.....it is that easy for the rider to get the rythym to match the tempo/canter pirrottes...because I personally know several Olympic riders and their trainers who would disagree it was easy tolearn...I wonder what they are doing so wrong then and yet winning on the way up

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Don't put words in my mouth, read my post again.

But as you asked, having trained a horse to piaffe and passage I can confirm that of course it is not as simple as training a leg yield, but by the time your horse has reached that level of schooling it comes more simply, which is very different from saying it is easy.


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			Can someone point me to a thread where it all gets technical, please? 

Personally I think that getting technical gets in the way of instinct and feel. The automatic adjustments you make without even thinking...
		
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Wait...so you are saying that theory...the technical of riding...is not needed for a rider to get the practical experience of mechanical

You do not need any understanding of theory just to ride..I will agree to that as there are many hack riders out there who could care less about theory....IMHO..it is extremely important to the education of the competitive rider

You need the technical of theory  to understand the mechanical of the body and just exactly what it is you are feeling so a rider can learn say...the technical of timeing the aid to the hoof fall and be able to feel through the body (mechanical) and indentify timing through such feel

And if anyone tells me about the timing of aids not being important and that there actually is no reason to know this.....I will be more than happy to post paragraph after paragra[h from books of yesterday by masters right up to the one WAZ wrote himself including all that I am speaking of in regards to this timing of aids 

really...and here all those books by the masters were useless....who knew


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## Amaranta (31 January 2013)

Oh and regarding the young horse who was unfit and evading, perhaps it would have been good horsemanship in that case to make sure that he was capable of what you were asking?

Straightness is one of the most basic of requirements before asking anything more complicated, but, of course, a horse cannot be straight when the rider is not.


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## ~ Clear Light ~ (31 January 2013)

Wow quite a post! I haven't read the leg yield post mind. I do think theory is important, especially as an instructor but also to reinforce what you feel to be correct. It also gives all of us (who don't have a Carl watching us ride everyday to teach us feel), a bit of a boost. Often what is correct is at odds to what feels instinctive, you would be wrong to think otherwise IMO. For instance it may feel correct to cross the inside rein over the horse's neck if the horse falls in, but when you understand the mechanics behind the horse's movement you realise this only makes things worse and you need to open the inside rein and keep your weight to the inside, not the outside. Humans by nature rely on their hands, and it takes immense effort to ride with better and more refined hand aids, this is totally at odds to what feels natural and beginners often want to just "grab" the reins.

I don't think you should be thinking about all this theory whilst riding! You should understand it (to whatever degree you wish to) off the horse. You should be present in the moment when you ride, ideally always with eyes on the ground, but perhaps with particular attention paid to known faults which may require some additional "brain ache" so to speak to overcome initially!


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## Polos Mum (31 January 2013)

I read a lovely quote (sadly can't remember by who) which said riding is simple it's just not easy. 
When you watch some of the wonderful partnerships it really does look simple  - but I've ridden enought to know it is definitely not!!


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## Wagtail (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			Wait...so you are saying that theory...the technical of riding...is not needed for a rider to get the practical experience of mechanical

You do not need any understanding of theory just to ride..I will agree to that as there are many hack riders out there who could care less about theory....IMHO..it is extremely important to the education of the competitive rider

You need the technical of theory  to understand the mechanical of the body and just exactly what it is you are feeling so a rider can learn say...the technical of timeing the aid to the hoof fall and be able to feel through the body (mechanical) and indentify timing through such feel

And if anyone tells me about the timing of aids not being important and that there actually is no reason to know this.....I will be more than happy to post paragraph after paragra[h from books of yesterday by masters right up to the one WAZ wrote himself including all that I am speaking of in regards to this timing of aids 

really...and here all those books by the masters were useless....who knew
		
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Some people need theory, other do it naturally. It is the same with every discipline. I am not talking about happy hackers, I am talking about riders who know instinctively what minute adjustments to make to correct their horse without having to analyse and think about it.


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## Amaranta (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			Wait...so you are saying that theory...the technical of riding...is not needed for a rider to get the practical experience of mechanical

You do not need any understanding of theory just to ride..I will agree to that as there are many hack riders out there who could care less about theory....IMHO..it is extremely important to the education of the competitive rider

You need the technical of theory  to understand the mechanical of the body and just exactly what it is you are feeling so a rider can learn say...the technical of timeing the aid to the hoof fall and be able to feel through the body (mechanical) and indentify timing through such feel

And if anyone tells me about the timing of aids not being important and that there actually is no reason to know this.....I will be more than happy to post paragraph after paragra[h from books of yesterday by masters right up to the one WAZ wrote himself including all that I am speaking of in regards to this timing of aids 

really...and here all those books by the masters were useless....who knew
		
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I repeat, you can quote all the books in the world, but instinct and feel beat technical knowledge every time.  Some people have it, others have to read books, sadly for them you cannot 'learn' instinct but you can develop feel as long as the trainer does not try to baffle you with science.


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## Baggybreeches (31 January 2013)

Amaranta said:



			I repeat, you can quote all the books in the world, but instinct and feel beat technical knowledge every time.  Some people have it, others have to read books, sadly for them you cannot 'learn' instinct but you can develop feel as long as the trainer does not try to baffle you with science.
		
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Thank you for being so eloquent!


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Oh and regarding the young horse who was unfit and evading, perhaps it would have been good horsemanship in that case to make sure that he was capable of what you were asking?

Straightness is one of the most basic of requirements before asking anything more complicated, but, of course, a horse cannot be straight when the rider is not.
		
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He is not young nor is he inexperienced...already has an international record by then...he is condition fit of the lung....what is being redeveloped after timeoff is the connection over the topline and the topline itself....what he is partlyresisiting is having to work harder...if he put as much effort at the time into just doing what was asked ver evading it would have been perfect....but when has any horse ever gone thier whole life riding perfect even when they are experienced...in fact..it is my opinion that the more experienced the horse...the more subtle but harder the evasion is to ride

Again...never said it was perfect....never said the rider I had on the horse was perfect....never even illuded to that in fact.
*shrugs shoulder*...This video should actually be encouraging to others who for  some reason beleive a trained horse is never bad or on the forehand or crooked or that all top riders ride perfect everyday...this is simply not true...most do not see these rides are all....horses are not pefect no matter how much training they have or self carraige they've developed


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## Wagtail (31 January 2013)

An example of how theory can make something unnecesarily complicated is when performing a flying change. Theory, rightly says, you should apply the aid change at the moment of suspension. That can make students think OMG how do I know when that is? And become overly preoccupied with the horse's foot fall. When really, it is just natural to apply the aid at the moment of suspension! It is the EASIEST time to do it. Those doubters, just TRY and apply the aid at the wrong footfall. It is very hard to do!


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

Amaranta said:



			I repeat, you can quote all the books in the world, but instinct and feel beat technical knowledge every time.  Some people have it, others have to read books, sadly for them you cannot 'learn' instinct but you can develop feel as long as the trainer does not try to baffle you with science.
		
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But are you saying that timing of the aids is not important....are you saying not understanding exactly what your feeling does not matter...are you saying that connecting the theory to the mechanical is not important to the movement being trained to horse/rider

A book will not teach you how to feel the bounce of the horse through them moving their body...we have already established that and I agree that you either follow the horse or bounce

But.... to me if you have no theory you have no idea what to do with the feel or have any idea of exactly what it is your feeling to work on the timing...to know how the wither lifts and bounces in the collected trot gauging if the bounce beat is clean or not...to feel an incorrect drop in the hips/back to feel the poll and how to manipulate it

IMO...Theory is there to understand what you feel and the reasons behind it and the actions taken....if one over thinks theory or never has any practical application skill to back up the rider than they are missing alot ofimprtant information


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			An example of how theory can make something unnecesarily complicated is when performing a flying change. Theory, rightly says, you should apply the aid change at the moment of suspension. That can make students think OMG how do I know when that is? And become overly preoccupied with the horse's foot fall. When really, it is just natural to apply the aid at the moment of suspension! It is the EASIEST time to do it. Those doubters, just TRY and apply the aid at the wrong footfall. It is very hard to do!
		
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This is a rider issue then...over thinking the threory...simply because some do this deos not mean theory is complicatedor hard...just that they are over thinking the mechanical instead of allowing the two to come together for correct riding...soon...the rider is riding the theory/practical together without having to think jus tlike when anyone is learning something new...time and experience allows it to just happen as needed...until then. again JMO..technical and mechanical need to be taught in such a way the rider does not get stuck is all


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## Amaranta (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			He is not young nor is he inexperienced...already has an international record by then...he is condition fit of the lung....what is being redeveloped after timeoff is the connection over the topline and the topline itself....what he is partlyresisiting is having to work harder...if he put as much effort at the time into just doing what was asked ver evading it would have been perfect....but when has any horse ever gone thier whole life riding perfect even when they are experienced...in fact..it is my opinion that the more experienced the horse...the more subtle but harder the evasion is to ride

I did not see evasion, I saw a horse who was out of balance, slightly hollow, in front of the vertical and most definitely not straight, hence my mistaking him for a young horse.  I am surprised that he has competed internationally tbh.

Again...never said it was perfect....never said the rider I had on the horse was perfect....never even illuded to that in fact.
*shrugs shoulder*...This video should actually be encouraging to others who for  some reason beleive a trained horse is never bad or on the forehand or crooked or that all top riders ride perfect everyday...this is simply not true...most do not see these rides are all....horses are not pefect no matter how much training they have or self carraige they've developed

Of course even trained horses have bad days, however, they do not have bad days by reverting to looking like a young green horse, because they are generally at peak fitness, their bad days tend to include 'airs above ground'
		
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Unfortunately you have come across as more than a little patronising, assuming people on here know nothing.  You could not be further from the truth.


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

Wagtail said:



			Some people need theory, other do it naturally. It is the same with every discipline. I am not talking about happy hackers, I am talking about riders who know instinctively what minute adjustments to make to correct their horse without having to analyse and think about it.
		
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So riders know naturally how to get a piaffe/pirroette/passage and can feel any and all incorrect placments of hoof/back/whatever making adjustments naturally to a movment they have never ridden so they can substain it...I wish I had been that good....would have saved me some head banging with that learning curve


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Unfortunately you have come across as more than a little patronising, assuming people on here know nothing.  You could not be further from the truth.
		
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oooo...then for that I apologise....that is not my inentions at all....I aimtorespect and read all posts without skimming....I believe all people have the right for an opinion whether I agree or not but I will read the posts with an open mind over slamming it close and will happily discuss/debate/share with those who do the same like horse people

most people who have communicated with me in type say I talk the same way yetwhen in person they realize  in no way am I rude/condensending/judgemental...the infliction of emotion is lost

I am communicating like we are sitting in a group of other riders talking....and I most certainly did not say I thought people knew nothing...I said we have differing systems/methods/techniques and would love to discuss/share here

I have several times stated I am not all that and a bag of empty chips...my way is not the only way not is it the correct way for everyone/ect trulymeaning it and nowhere do I beleive I have stated I was right about anything soooo.....


I do not know what more I can do then that other than to accept not all members will accept it if others find they can not since as with any forum...such is life....what I will do....is not bother those who seem to have an issue with me/my posts/articualion or communication skills...mental ignore works well and I will use it.....I kindly suggest those who have issues with me do the same


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## siennamum (31 January 2013)

It doesn't need to be, but we all select the type of trainer and regime which suits ourselves. I like stuff which I don't understand, I may not even try to but appreciate someone taking the time to write it all out.


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## jessamess (31 January 2013)

Oh I agree we have had livery's that drove us insane for over analysing every tiny little detail- "oh she looked at me this way she now needs this in her food an this when I ride for this long and blah blah blah" 

It's like jeez just get a grip and just ride the thing, so over thinking everything, the horse needs more than anything just someone who's just gonna get on and ride it!!!

We've currently got in a little 13.2hh pc pony in as it bucks its little jockey and you know what it is refreshing to get on something that isn't all posh and analysed, it's just a fuzzy little new forest cross and it literally does what it's asked when its asked - simple!!!! Kick- walk, kick- trot, kick- canter, pull - stop, pull one rein- turn, pull the other- turn!!!! Nothing fancy, no 'weight changes' or 'carry himself' just a pony trotting alog happy as larry Loose Reins no 'out line' or impulsion' simple!!!!

 It's just great fun and takes me back to the good old days where the only thing mattered was staying on and going fast!!! and your pony had a blast at the same time!!!

Sometimes you can get carried away with all the complicated little details and forget about the basics and the simple things!!!


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## PapaFrita (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			In the context I used my words inIstatedif one is riding/competing atteh PSG level they generally know by then just where their talent lays or not.

Now...there is no language barrier or issue with my explaination over here...again I think the symatics areover geography/terms usedby differning countries...I do not use the loobut the bathroom sort of things....and is perfectly understood in any clinic I have done here as well.

The language of angles/cores/hand/seat/back that I use seemstobe known in countries likeGermany/Sweden/Canada/US....but that does not mean it is the same forsay...UK/Holland/France/otherplaces.....that is why I asked for patience while I figure your terms out

I have found from speaking with other competitors/coaches..it is when the rider gets to the PSG level or higher...most riders know by then if they have what it takes to move on competitvely or not....especially if they are honest with themslf
		
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I still don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that if I rode at PSG I would understand, or that clearly I will never ride at PSG because I don't understand....
A doctor is able to converse with other doctors in technical terminology and yet they are also able to put it in simple terms for the rest of us who do not have medical degrees. I don't see why you find it impossible/undesirable/unnecessary to use layman's terms, especially when talking about exercises such as LY/HP/SI that are NOT rocket science.


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## Amaranta (31 January 2013)

I have just realised we are talking about two separate videos here, I am referring to the showjumping video, you must be referring to the flat work ones, fwiw if the horse in the flatwork videos was going forward properly (especially in the lateral moves) then many of the evasions would be solved.  As it is, he is often on the forehand and the hind leg rarely follows through.  I did see some evasion in the contact but this is because he is not properly through.

I would just like to add that, in my opinion, if he was unfit, it was perhaps a little unfair to ask him for such an advanced outline, through doing that, you sacrificed forward movement.

One of our greatest riders, Carl Hester, rarely puts his horses in 'competition' outline at home btw.


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

PapaFrita said:



			I still don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that if I rode at PSG I would understand, or that clearly I will never ride at PSG because I don't understand....
.
		
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No...I am saying that a competitive rider....once they hve reached that level after putting in their best of their best of the absolute best effort on different horses of quality that they know...a personal voice inside our body the one that tells us teh truth whether we want it or not will say ......you have reach the level where you will move on a bit more but you will not be Olympic material no matter the horse....you are missing the final ingredient of "it" that makes a top competitor the top

We all have dreams...but there are people who no matter how hard they try/train....will never be good enough for the bigBIG time...and it is at the PSG level alot of riders begin to know....others it is stamped on their foreheads...my left an impression


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## TarrSteps (31 January 2013)

The "bag of chips" reference is lost, btw.  They call them crisps here. 

Although that does not stop me from using the phrase as part of my continuing attempt to export Canadian-ness.


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## Baggybreeches (31 January 2013)

Amaranta said:



			I have just realised we are talking about two separate videos here, I am referring to the showjumping video, you must be referring to the flat work ones, fwiw if the horse in the flatwork videos was going forward properly (especially in the lateral moves) then many of the evasions would be solved.  As it is, he is often on the forehand and the hind leg rarely follows through.  I did see some evasion in the contact but this is because he is not properly through.
		
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 I watched two of the flatwork videos and saw the same things you did, which is what made me question the poster about being paid for that type of training.
 The horse was not remotely moving forwards at any time, without being forward he can't be straight, if he isn't straight he can't balanced, if he isn't balanced he can't work properly through his back and neck and everything you get will be false and forced.
 I have no idea who nieghham is or what their qualifications or achievements are, but the fact remains the videos chosen do not illustrate anything other than a horse (fit or otherwise) being ALLOWED to go in a counter productive by a rider who looks out of balance (but maybe she is concentrating on her cores   ). Sorry nieghham you can't excuse a horse being allowed to go like that if it is allegedly an educated one.


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

Amaranta said:



			I have just realised we are talking about two separate videos here, I am referring to the showjumping video, you must be referring to the flat work ones, fwiw if the horse in the flatwork videos was going forward properly (especially in the lateral moves) then many of the evasions would be solved.  As it is, he is often on the forehand and the hind leg rarely follows through.  I did see some evasion in the contact but this is because he is not properly through.

I would just like to add that, in my opinion, if he was unfit, it was perhaps a little unfair to ask him for such an advanced outline, through doing that, you sacrificed forward movement.

One of our greatest riders, Carl Hester, rarely puts his horses in 'competition' outline at home btw.
		
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We were not actually asking for the outline...asI mentioned....I find the more the horse knows...the more ways to make the subtle evasions of their choice ...he wanted to go and have none of long'n'low for a bit...this flat video series (some of which are no longer on youtube) that explained the whole proces of getting them to lift the shoulder and relax

The jumping...which video do you look at....99% of all my videos/pictures were destroyed in a house fire...the only things I have left are what others taped for me and is on youtube.

In the jumping I do have several first timers on him even in the ring....if the fence is low with the exception of a few classes I did or the larger x country events.....it is first time riders in the ring or at home nervous students needing a schoolmaster to take them around
...or...some horses are not even mine or my students...I will fill in for a friend who has a "fun" barn and teach teh lessons according to that....some are sent tome to critique and others are being lent a hand while finding them a permanant coach
The awful ones of me in the arena are like my personal journel with my hip and the healing progress/use as timewent on...they were amonth before the show....sigh...it was actually getting over the grids physically that had me mentally thinking I was healed....wrong!!

I have only two GP classes left and they are being worked on right now to save the quality of the film and hope to getthem back up

This here is me afew years ago after what was "suppose" to be my last hip operation(took 4 more)...I did lowlowlow as pain was a factor...unfortunatley I could not walk for three days after these easy courses...it was then I decided I needed professional riders for my horses untilI fully healed

Here I am trying my new hip out at one of our indoor shows....these are the warm up classes....I missed the rest of the show as I was unhappily unable to bend the hip at all...you can actually see it interfering with the horse and my alignment/supplenss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCHz_8tjdew&feature=share&list=UUVQg7BQ8JAkHnBEWXbGwegg

I amreally hoping three years is fricking long enough too...I have this boys babies to get out so they have a show record like he has.


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## ihatework (31 January 2013)

I'm afraid none of this adds up to me.
'International Horses' 'Riding at GP' etc etc etc ... and then videos only show evidence of training flaws and 1m courses. To me this is all about credibility -or lack of - I'm afraid, which is a shame as I'm sure you have the very best of intentions.


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

Baggybreeches said:



			I watched two of the flatwork videos and saw the same things you did, which is what made me question the poster about being paid for that type of training.
 The horse was not remotely moving forwards at any time, without being forward he can't be straight, if he isn't straight he can't balanced, if he isn't balanced he can't work properly through his back and neck and everything you get will be false and forced.
 I have no idea who nieghham is or what their qualifications or achievements are, but the fact remains the videos chosen do not illustrate anything other than a horse (fit or otherwise) being ALLOWED to go in a counter productive by a rider who looks out of balance (but maybe she is concentrating on her cores   ). Sorry nieghham you can't excuse a horse being allowed to go like that if it is allegedly an educated one.
		
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Sorry...but you think that less than 3 minutes of video picked to show issues of riding is an encompassing resume.....even with allteh videos combined of this horse there is less than 40 minutes including jumping....and you have accessed this is his constant way of going

really...hmmm....well I am not going to even try to say it was not the whole ride and the finnishing product or show rings demonstrates a different horse...you seem to make up your mind that showing less than a minute of  evasion/not the best riding is all there is and it never imporves ever and want to run with it....so be it...run free and feel the wind in your hair if you choose to judge/assume over asking what is happening....especially since I made sure I stated that this particular video was a training video that showed *good/bad/ugly* of some evasions being worked on


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## Baggybreeches (31 January 2013)

ihatework said:



			I'm afraid none of this adds up to me.
'International Horses' 'Riding at GP' etc etc etc ... and then videos only show evidence of training flaws and 1m courses. To me this is all about credibility -or lack of - I'm afraid, which is a shame as I'm sure you have the very best of intentions.
		
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That's my point, I don't ever discount anybody's knowledge or experience but it appears this person is slightly over inflating their experience and more importantly standard of training.


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## Baggybreeches (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			Sorry...but you think that less than 3 minutes of video picked to show issues of riding is an encompassing resume.....even with allteh videos combined of this horse there is less than 40 minutes including jumping....and you have accessed this is his constant way of going
		
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You were trying to illustrate a point about how more complicated instruction made for a better rider, from the evidence posted, you failed? I saw what I saw I didn't suggest that the horse went like that all the time, but I saw enough to see that it wasn't being corrected before it happened which my FBHS trainer would haul me over the coals for, which is how we get back to the 'instinct' over 'mechanical/theory' riding, an instinctive rider 'feels' what is about to happen and prevents it, a mechanical rider reacts to the action of the horse.


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## cptrayes (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			This is a rider issue then...over thinking the threory...simply because some do this deos not mean theory is complicatedor hard...just that they are over thinking the mechanical instead of allowing the two to come together for correct riding...soon...the rider is riding the theory/practical together without having to think jus tlike when anyone is learning something new...time and experience allows it to just happen as needed...until then. again JMO..technical and mechanical need to be taught in such a way the rider does not get stuck is all
		
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It's not a rider issue if the trainer has told the trainee that the timing of the aid for the flying change is critical and not explained that the trainee should apply the aid when it feels most natural to do it. 

A trainer I had got it through to me and my horse by having us do a figure of eight across the short end of the arena, with a flying change when 10m away from A.

The proximity of a telegraph pole at A focussed my mind wonderfully on applying the aid and stopped me over-analysing when to do it. 

Some trainers, unfortunately, do want to be "experts" and if they make things too simple for their pupils they lose that superiority. I've ridden in front of a couple like that - once and never gone back.  A great trainer needs to leave their pride at the gate of the arena.


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

ihatework said:



			I'm afraid none of this adds up to me.
'International Horses' 'Riding at GP' etc etc etc ... and then videos only show evidence of training flaws and 1m courses. To me this is all about credibility -or lack of - I'm afraid, which is a shame as I'm sure you have the very best of intentions.
		
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Sighhhh...look..my horse is ridden by Ian Roberts a multi-olympic rider....I am in the EC records...my barn name is too as aremy students

So..you all can go that route and check me out.....I have part ownership in several horses as well you can check out...I start/prepare them then place them

Ian does 0 training on my horse....it is well known I or karen Seegert will ride him Dressage and I do the jumping training soley...his record alone is pretty good.

Now...I want to know where these flawless trainers with perfect horses are...I mean I rode with WAZ for 8 years and he is publically on my profile page for advertising and I can absolutely guarentee that the horses I rode had definite hours...non moments now and then...but days of training to work out an issue the horse had

Now...again this is so easy to check out....4 years ago my house was hit by lightning and I lost everything with teh exceptions of a few pictures...the mobile home we were stuck in for two years had a transformer blow through catching it on fire losing whatever we had left....so...no..I do not have pictures other than the ones I have here and from the last two summer
with the exception of a few

I do not know what the issue you guys are having...but I will say it is yours...I will no longer say my levels or provide proof unless it comes through with a picture I am posting


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## Amaranta (31 January 2013)

Baggybreeches said:



			You were trying to illustrate a point about how more complicated instruction made for a better rider, from the evidence posted, you failed? I saw what I saw I didn't suggest that the horse went like that all the time, but I saw enough to see that it wasn't being corrected before it happened which my FBHS trainer would haul me over the coals for, which is how we get back to the 'instinct' over 'mechanical/theory' riding, an instinctive rider 'feels' what is about to happen and prevents it, a mechanical rider reacts to the action of the horse.
		
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completely agree BB

The video I was originally talking about is this one, different horse, looks very young and green
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=213695765342185&set=vb.100001052906260&type=3&theater


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			It's not a rider issue if the trainer has told the trainee that the timing of the aid for the flying change is critical and not explained that the trainee should apply the aid when it feels most natural to do it. 

*Exactly what I am saying....I do not understand thepointor areyou agreeing...the trainerhas leftout an important detail of theory*

A trainer I had got it through to me and my horse by having us do a figure of eight across the short end of the arena, with a flying change when 10m away from A.

The proximity of a telegraph pole at A focussed my mind wonderfully on applying the aid and stopped me over-analysing when to do it. 

*This is a good exersice to help the rider to understand feel vrs application and engagement for those who do tend to over think or who do not want to dwelve into the details as rapid tempo changes will not be importanat to them*

Some trainers, unfortunately, do want to be "experts" and if they make things too simple for their pupils they lose that superiority. I've ridden in front of a couple like that - once and never gone back.  A great trainer needs to leave their pride at the gate of the arena.
		
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IMO...Superiority that is conesending should never be part of a coaches make up/thoughs just as students who have coaches who do go into details should not label them or judge them all the same

Again...to me...there is a huge difference in arrogance of conciet and confidence in ones skill due to training/experience/results

If a coach is not confident in their skills or ability....those would be teh ones I question myself...if they do not have the confidence in their knowledge...how can I


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## Auslander (31 January 2013)

So - who are you? No-one can tell if your credentials are as impressive as your ability to spout forth word-vomit unless you share, and as per my post on your other thread, transparency may get you an easier ride here.


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## Baggybreeches (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			Sighhhh...look..my horse is ridden by Ian Roberts a multi-olympic rider....I am in the EC records...my barn name is too as aremy students

So..you all can go that route and check me out.....I have part ownership in several horses as well you can check out...I start/prepare them then place them

Ian does 0 training on my horse....it is well known I or karen Seegert will ride him Dressage and I do the jumping training soley...his record alone is pretty good.

Now...I want to know where these flawless trainers with perfect horses are...I mean I rode with WAZ for 8 years and he is publically on my profile page for advertising and I can absolutely guarentee that the horses I rode had definite hours...non moments now and then...but days of training to work out an issue the horse had

Now...again this is so easy to check out....4 years ago my house was hit by lightning and I lost everything with teh exceptions of a few pictures...the mobile home we were stuck in for two years had a transformer blow through catching it on fire losing whatever we had left....so...no..I do not have pictures other than the ones I have here and from the last two summer
with the exception of a few

I do not know what the issue you guys are having...but I will say it is yours...I will no longer say my levels or provide proof unless it comes through with a picture I am posting
		
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I have no desire to look you up, what I am trying to do is to say that the examples you have posted are poor examples from someone who should know that the a) do not illustrate your point well and b) do not reflect well on your professional image. I have no beef with you personally but you are coming across as incredibly patronising which never goes down well. There are people on here who I am still slightly awe struck by, and some who have been found very wanting when the time came to prove themselves. It sounds like you've had a truly crappy time but that doesn't make your way of teaching any more the 'right' way than anyone else's. 
I maintain that watching those videos I would not pay to train with you (which is no issue as I have access to good training on my doorstep  )


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

Guys...this thread is waaay off topic and has been about me long enough....hell even I am bored of it and threw away the popcorn.

If you have an issue with me...it is yours....I hope you find a way to resolve it so I am not so much a thorn for ya.


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

Baggybreeches said:



			I have no desire to look you up, what I am trying to do is to say that the examples you have posted are poor examples from someone who should know that the a) do not illustrate your point well and b) do not reflect well on your professional image. I have no beef with you personally but you are coming across as incredibly patronising which never goes down well. There are people on here who I am still slightly awe struck by, and some who have been found very wanting when the time came to prove themselves. It sounds like you've had a truly crappy time but that doesn't make your way of teaching any more the 'right' way than anyone else's. 

*please bring the quote oreven implication where I stated this....in fact...I believe several timesI have stated the opposite*

I maintain that watching those videos I would not pay to train with you (which is no issue as I have access to good training on my doorstep  )
		
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*I am here in a non-professional way...proffession may be spoken about/refered to but in no way am I  participating in here as a pro or looking for students/wanting to change the riding world...I am a HH member joining in a discussion*

That is all


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## Amaranta (31 January 2013)

In case you missed my post, this is the video I was referring to

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=213695765342185&set=vb.100001052906260&type=3&theater


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## TableDancer (31 January 2013)

Interesting thread  Originally I was going to pile in with the "of course it doesn't need to be complicated" argument, but having read through all the responses I've realised that the answer is, er, a bit more complicated  

I guess riding, and any sport at a high level, is indeed quite complex and there is no doubt that we never stop learning, which - given the age of some of us - suggests there is a lot to learn  I think the issue is one of simplicity (or the opposite) of communication rather than simplicity of technique. So some of the techniques you need to master to ride successfully at a high level are quite complex, however the skill of a good coach is in expressing these ideas in a clear, easy to understand fashion. I'm not just talking about when we are standing in a cold school teaching a client, but also when conducting discussions like the ones on this forum. It is very clear to me in reading the threads that some of the participants are far more skilled than others in this important respect. It is a shame, because what are possibly useful and valid ideas become lost in a fog of unnecessarily multi-syllabic, ridiculously verbose statements. It is inevitable that a large proportion of the audience get turned off, and another proportion get wound up. I think some of the problem is a cultural one: here in Britain we tend to seek to express complex ideas as simply and concisely as possible; my perception is that on the other side of the pond there may be a greater respect for verbosity and grammatical gymnastics 

I have to say, Neigham, I too found the videos you have posted unhelpful in proving your veracity as a correct, higher level trainer - I understand that the context may well be more complicated and there are mitigating circumstances, but you didn't provide us with them to start with so we must be forgiven for drawing our own conclusions.


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## Auslander (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



*I am here in a non-professional way...proffession may be spoken about/refered to but in no way am I  participating in here as a pro or looking forstudents/wanting to change the riding world...I am a HH member joining in*

That is all
		
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Not really joining in though, is it. More like talking AT people. And ignoring questions you don't want to answer - like who you are. Tell you what, I'll tell you my name if you tell me yours? Tempted?


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## Baggybreeches (31 January 2013)

Auslander said:



			Not really joining in though, is it. More like talking AT people. And ignoring questions you don't want to answer - like who you are. Tell you what, I'll tell you my name if you tell me yours? Tempted?
		
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See? I thought it was just me on a parallel universe!


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## Auslander (31 January 2013)

Baggybreeches said:



			See? I thought it was just me on a parallel universe! 

Click to expand...

Welcome to my world!


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## Amaranta (31 January 2013)

Auslander said:



			Not really joining in though, is it. More like talking AT people. And ignoring questions you don't want to answer - like who you are. Tell you what, I'll tell you my name if you tell me yours? Tempted?
		
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You don't need to prove anything Charlotte, we all know who you are


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

If you google the horse's name, then its website comes up. 

FWIW the Equine Canada results show a horse which since 2006 has competed once at 1.10, then predominantly at 1m and below and has done the equivalent of BE100 eventing a couple of times.


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## mik (31 January 2013)

TableDancer said:



			Interesting thread  Originally I was going to pile in with the "of course it doesn't need to be complicated" argument, but having read through all the responses I've realised that the answer is, er, a bit more complicated  

I guess riding, and any sport at a high level, is indeed quite complex and there is no doubt that we never stop learning, which - given the age of some of us - suggests there is a lot to learn  I think the issue is one of simplicity (or the opposite) of communication rather than simplicity of technique. So some of the techniques you need to master to ride successfully at a high level are quite complex, however the skill of a good coach is in expressing these ideas in a clear, easy to understand fashion. I'm not just talking about when we are standing in a cold school teaching a client, but also when conducting discussions like the ones on this forum. It is very clear to me in reading the threads that some of the participants are far more skilled than others in this important respect. It is a shame, because what are possibly useful and valid ideas become lost in a fog of unnecessarily multi-syllabic, ridiculously verbose statements. It is inevitable that a large proportion of the audience get turned off, and another proportion get wound up. I think some of the problem is a cultural one: here in Britain we tend to seek to express complex ideas as simply and concisely as possible; my perception is that on the other side of the pond there may be a greater respect for verbosity and grammatical gymnastics 

I have to say, Neigham, I too found the videos you have posted unhelpful in proving your veracity as a correct, higher level trainer - I understand that the context may well be more complicated and there are mitigating circumstances, but you didn't provide us with them to start with so we must be forgiven for drawing our own conclusions.
		
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Thank you TD for this refreshingly put piece of sanity-


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## TarrSteps (31 January 2013)

TableDancer said:



			my perception is that on the other side of the pond there may be a greater respect for verbosity and grammatical gymnastics .
		
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Um, should I be offended?!  

Okay, you might have a point.  I would have said I was unnecessarily verbose by Canadian standards!


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## brighthair (31 January 2013)

I take it your initials are LK?


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## Baggybreeches (31 January 2013)

Amaranta said:



			You don't need to prove anything Charlotte, we all know who you are 

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*snorts*


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Um, should I be offended?!  

Okay, you might have a point.  I would have said I was unnecessarily verbose by Canadian standards!
		
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I'm disappointed - you haven't invented a single word during your time with us. I feel cheated.


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## Cortez (31 January 2013)

Y'know, it is WAAAY easier to learn a whole bunch of theory and spout that than it is to actually DO something. A good teacher/trainer knows the theory, then just goes and does what works. A really good teacher/trainer pitches the instruction/training at a level that the student can digest, and gets the results in whatever way works best for that particular combination. You cannot learn to ride from a book, because the horses havn't read them. Me, I absolutely LOOOVE theory and could give Neighham a serious run for her/his money in a spout off, but I don't think it either useful or clever to clutter up one of the simplest and most useful basic excercises with reams of irrelevent guff. As someone said earlier, and very well put, riding IS simple; it IS NOT easy, which is why we all keep at it.


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## TarrSteps (31 January 2013)

brighthair said:



			I take it your initials are LK?
		
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Do you mean neighman? No


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## ihatework (31 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			If you google the horse's name, then its website comes up. 

FWIW the Equine Canada results show a horse which since 2006 has competed once at 1.10, then predominantly at 1m and below and has done the equivalent of BE100 eventing a couple of times.
		
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FWIW he looks like a really cute horse and I'm sure he's very much loved .... but I'd love to see a 'what do you think of my breeding stallion' thread in the breeding section 

But it has made me realise I need to be less self-depreciating !!


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			If you google the horse's name, then its website comes up. 

FWIW the Equine Canada results show a horse which since 2006 has competed once at 1.10, then predominantly at 1m and below and has done the equivalent of BE100 eventing a couple of times.
		
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and the other horses shown that are in teh records otherthan my pet/friend who is not my pro horse...there records are...and the horses owned by me/trained by me and placed with othe rriders...names of the owners and part owners are included starting fromoh...say....1970's and up?

and no...my initials are not LK


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## Amaranta (31 January 2013)

Cortez said:



			Y'know, it is WAAAY easier to learn a whole bunch of theory and spout that than it is to actually DO something. A good teacher/trainer knows the theory, then just goes and does what works. A really good teacher/trainer pitches the instruction/training at a level that the student can digest, and gets the results in whatever way works best for that particular combination. You cannot learn to ride from a book, because the horses havn't read them. Me, I absolutely LOOOVE theory and could give Neighham a serious run for her/his money in a spout off, but I don't think it either useful or clever to clutter up one of the simplest and most useful basic excercises with reams of irrelevent guff. As someone said earlier, and very well put, riding IS simple; it IS NOT easy, which is why we all keep at it.
		
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*claps*


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## cptrayes (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			This is a rider issue then...over thinking the threory...simply because some do this deos not mean theory is complicatedor hard...just that they are over thinking the mechanical instead of allowing the two to come together for correct riding...soon...the rider is riding the theory/practical together without having to think jus tlike when anyone is learning something new...time and experience allows it to just happen as needed...until then. again JMO..technical and mechanical need to be taught in such a way the rider does not get stuck is all
		
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				niegham said:
			
		


			Exactly what I am saying....I do not understand thepointor areyou agreeing...the trainerhas leftout an important detail of theory
		
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You make no sense, sorry. You said it was a rider issue. I said it was not. You are now saying it is not a rider issue, that the trainer has left out an important detail of theory. That's not true. The trainer has left out an important detail of feel. The theory is to apply the aid for the flying change in the moment of suspension. Wagtail's point was that this it is too easy to over analyse the theory to the detriment of the feel.


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			and the other horses shown that are in teh records otherthan my pet/friend who is not my pro horse...there records are...and the horses owned by me/trained by me and placed with othe rriders...names of the owners and part owners are included starting fromoh...say....1970's and up?

and no...my initials are not LK
		
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I just looked up your name, that's all. I'm not some kind of internet stalker, I was just interested and know how to use google! I didn't look up the horse, I looked up you. I was interested because I spent some months training in the USA and it seemed to me that any Canadians who wanted to compete at anything beyond about our Novice (your Prelim) ended up in the USA, so I was curious, that's all. 

I was also a bit confused because as I understood it there wasn't a Grand Prix level for Hunter/Jumper - it stopped at adult open which is about 1.20. So you made me interested and I went and looked


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

ihatework said:



			FWIW he looks like a really cute horse and I'm sure he's very much loved .... but I'd love to see a 'what do you think of my breeding stallion' thread in the breeding section 

But it has made me realise I need to be less self-depreciating !!
		
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I would love to see him

Copper is marketed as an Amatuer stallion forthose who are not looking for the bestof the best or can not aford it but want a stud that will turn out talent as well as temperment...he is not worldwide kind of stallion like others.

It seems to suprise people when I do not breed alot of my mares to him....but...as much as I love him...the rose colour glasses come off when it is business and I see a very nice ammy stallion....we have a market here for them and Arabian sport stallions...well..economics have slowed it down....but that is everywhere on this side right  now


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## Baggybreeches (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			Copper is marketed as an Amatuer stallion forthose who are not looking for the bestof the best or can not aford it but want a stud that will turn out talent as well as temperment...he is not worldwide kind of stallion like others.
		
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head wall bang, head wall bang.


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			I just looked up your name, that's all. I'm not some kind of internet stalker, I was just interested and know how to use google! I didn't look up the horse, I looked up you. I was interested because I spent some months training in the USA and it seemed to me that any Canadians who wanted to compete at anything beyond about our Novice (your Prelim) ended up in the USA, so I was curious, that's all. 

I was also a bit confused because as I understood it there wasn't a Grand Prix level for Hunter/Jumper - it stopped at adult open which is about 1.20. So you made me interested and I went and looked 

Click to expand...


There is no such thing as GP in Hunter...pro classes are the Open Hunter/Conformation Hunter and Combined Hunter

I have no idea why you would have been told there is no GP classes here in Jumpers....there are several per show with the large main GP class being a premeir class the day before the WC ones....that is confusing to me....heck...even the B shows have a couple.

Canada now has several venues that offer advance..intermediate is at all the top events now as well...what we do not offer are the larger C* classes....and that is changing next season with two being built


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## Goldenstar (31 January 2013)

Baggybreeches said:



			head wall bang, head wall bang.
		
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Have a gin you'll feel better.


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## mik (31 January 2013)

I'm lost, yet again.


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## Goldenstar (31 January 2013)

mik said:



			I'm lost, yet again.
		
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Gin for you too in fact gin all round.


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## Baggybreeches (31 January 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			Have a gin you'll feel better.
		
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I have no tonic *sob*


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## ihatework (31 January 2013)

But remember it has to be Hendricks or bombay !


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## Baggybreeches (31 January 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			Gin for you too in fact gin all round.
		
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Hopes there's tonic in Spain


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

Baggybreeches said:



			head wall bang, head wall bang.
		
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if you are banging your head over this....please realize I did not breed/originally own the stallion and this is part of the buy out contract that he remains as he is.

I could careless if he sees another mare myself...but he is a partnered horse I am obligated to certain conditions

Oh...and I choose to ignore rude sarcasm....it is not missed....just played with cordgially is all...now...must take my own advice and stop the train and get off....way too off topic


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## Baggybreeches (31 January 2013)

ihatework said:



			But remember it has to be Hendricks or bombay !
		
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Bombay here staring at me!


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## Auslander (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			I would love to see him

Copper is marketed as an Amatuer stallion forthose who are not looking for the bestof the best or can not aford it but want a stud that will turn out talent as well as temperment...he is not worldwide kind of stallion like others.

It seems to suprise people when I do not breed alot of my mares to him....but...as much as I love him...the rose colour glasses come off when it is business and I see a very nice ammy stallion....we have a market here for them and Arabian sport stallions...well..economics have slowed it down....but that is everywhere on this side right  now
		
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I thought you said he'd competed internationally though - now I'm really confused.


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			There is no such thing as GP in Hunter...pro classes are the Open Hunter/Conformation Hunter and Combined Hunter

I have no idea why you would have been told there is no GP classes here in Jumpers....there are several per show with the large main GP class being a premeir class the day before the WC ones....that is confusing to me....heck...even the B shows have a couple.

Canada now has several venues that offer advance..intermediate is at all the top events now as well...what we do not offer are the larger C* classes....and that is changing next season with two being built
		
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Ok, I was using H/J as the term for that class where you go round in a light seat, the horse does automatic changes, everything is on a set stride pattern and if you deviate at all you lose marks. The other is just showjumping to me.

Hence the confusion when you said you'd ridden GP H/J.


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## meardsall_millie (31 January 2013)

Baggybreeches said:



			I have no tonic *sob*
		
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Could I suggest forgetting the tonic and going for the gin straight?

I will be.

Sooooo pleased I started this thread......


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## only_me (31 January 2013)

Some people are able to teach/discuss in simplistic terms and normal terminology, others aren't.

That's pretty simple - I'm good in normal terminology but struggle with more complex terms when discussing with my peers. 

Just wondering also if drop aids are tilting pelvis/hips into forward/anterior position (so your seat bones would "drop"?)


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## Baggybreeches (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			if you are banging your head over this....please realize I did not breed/originally own the stallion and this is part of the buy out contract that he remains as he is.

I could careless if he sees another mare myself...but he is a partnered horse I am obligated to certain conditions

Oh...and I choosse to ignore rude sarcasm....it is not missed....just played with cordgially is all
		
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I am not being rude, I am genuinely astounded that anyone believes it is OK to use a stallion based on the fact he is an amateur's horse, that does not excuse his way of going or training.
It is apparent that we have very different standards and for an example of a very good quality stallion 'for the amateur' I suggest you look up Narramore Stud in Devon. Their stallion is what I would breed from.


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

meardsall_millie said:



			Could I suggest forgetting the tonic and going for the gin straight?

I will be.

Sooooo pleased I started this thread...... 

Click to expand...

Not as pleased as the poor girl who asked about leg yielding, I bet


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## mik (31 January 2013)

Is she still with us SC?


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## Baggybreeches (31 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			Not as pleased as the poor girl who asked about leg yielding, I bet 

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What's leg yield?


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## Goldenstar (31 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			Not as pleased as the poor girl who asked about leg yielding, I bet 

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I hope she's ok I mean really seriously she might need help .
And gin


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## stencilface (31 January 2013)

Wow. My brain is bleeding from reading that.

Large Hendricks with generous amount if cucumber please.


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## meardsall_millie (31 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			Not as pleased as the poor girl who asked about leg yielding, I bet 

Click to expand...

Yes I did think about poor Maia earlier.  She's probably sitting in a corner, quivering and rocking gently


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## Goldenstar (31 January 2013)

Baggybreeches said:



			What's leg yield?
		
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It's what happens after six gins


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## Goldenstar (31 January 2013)

meardsall_millie said:



			Yes I did think about poor Maia earlier.  She's probably sitting in a corner, quivering and rocking gently 

Click to expand...

Me too I hope she's not alone at this difficult time.


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

Auslander said:



			I thought you said he'd competed internationally though - now I'm really confused.
		
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Ummmm...US is considered international  since I am in a totally different country though the same continent so yes....abroad...no..to me abroadis across the pond Germany/UK/Japan...internationally...both in the Jumper and eventing US side yes...we have both competed there in fact together before my accident

And the poor OP...if anyone deserves gin...she should get a whole barrel.


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## cptrayes (31 January 2013)

Oh, I've competed Internationally too then, I've done an event in Wales 


Nieghham in this country the description "International" does not mean popping across a border because your own country has insufficient events for you to attend. It means competing at such a high standard that in order to get together enough other horses of the same standard to hold a competition at the right level you have to travel.

That is what has been confusing people about your level of competition compared with what we thought you were claiming.


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

meardsall_millie said:



			Yes I did think about poor Maia earlier.  She's probably sitting in a corner, quivering and rocking gently 

Click to expand...

Either that or she's _still_ in her arena working out how to get out of halt - it must have been over 24hrs by now


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## Amaranta (31 January 2013)

Baggybreeches said:



			head wall bang, head wall bang.
		
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*joins BB*


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## meardsall_millie (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			Ummmm...US is considered international so yes....abroad...no..to me abroadis across the pond Germany/UK/Japan...internationally...both in the Jumper and eventing US side yes...we have both competed there in fact together before my accident

And the poor OP...if anyone deserves gin...she should get a whole barrel.
		
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It's probably similar to us being International Eventers if we've done a CIC1*


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			It's what happens after six gins
		
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## TarrSteps (31 January 2013)

The joke is, only_me, I suspect you have a much better grasp of the complexities of rider position than most of us, given your combination of riding and education. If you're stumped there is not much hope!

Hunters - highest class is Open, which is 4'. Amateur and Jr classes top out at 3'6". 

Jumpers - more or less the same as here. There are Grand Prix classes at different levels, in the way that shows here offer them, but Open horses jump 1.45 + and that is what most people understand as a Grand Prix jumper.


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## ihatework (31 January 2013)

Mmmm I have opted for Bombay and am savouring it whilst I cook my Thai green curry. I am willing to offer counselling to poor leg yield girl if needed x


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## PapaFrita (31 January 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Oh, I've competed Internationally too then, I've done an event in Wales 


Neighham in this country the descritpion "International" does not mean popping across a border because your own country has insufficient events for you to attend. It means competing at such a high standard that in order to get together enough other horses of the same standard to hold a competition at the right level you have to travel.
		
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Darn, I was all excited about having competed internationally as well. AND 2 different continents!!


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

meardsall_millie said:



			It's probably similar to us being International Eventers if we've done a CIC1* 

Click to expand...

Bloody hell, I won (yes, get me, WON) at a show in the USA on a borrowed horse. It was a combined training, I led the dressage and the jumping. I am an International Rider and I did not even realise it. I even have video evidence! Stuff your poxy CIC* and FEI levels, I am an actual International Rider, I bet you did not even leave the UK for yours


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## cptrayes (31 January 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			It's what happens after six gins
		
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PML
ROFL


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

ihatework said:



			Mmmm I have opted for Bombay and am savouring it whilst I cook my Thai green curry. I am willing to offer counselling to poor leg yield girl if needed x
		
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I am glad we bought Tanquary in duty free at the weekend


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## meardsall_millie (31 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			Bloody hell, I won (yes, get me, WON) at a show in the USA on a borrowed horse. It was a combined training, I led the dressage and the jumping. I am an International Rider and I did not even realise it. I even have video evidence! Stuff your poxy CIC* and FEI levels, I am an actual International Rider, I bet you did not even leave the UK for yours 

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Oi - and I can also claim to be a producer of international event horses!

Beat that SC!


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## mik (31 January 2013)

PMSL, this is wonderful


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## Santa_Claus (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			Ummmm...US is considered international  since I am in a totally different country though the same continent so yes....abroad...no..to me abroadis across the pond Germany/UK/Japan...internationally...both in the Jumper and eventing US side yes...we have both competed there in fact together before my accident

And the poor OP...if anyone deserves gin...she should get a whole barrel.
		
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Going by those rules I'm on to a winner as I've therefore competed internationally in Showjumping, Dressage and Eventing! get me 

More seriously as others have said everyone can learn theory it is putting it into practice that counts either as a rider or trainer, and the best trainers are those that can explain simply. If a trainer used your explanations during a lesson 3/4s of the lesson would be stood still explaining things and not actually working on the horse!

Not knowing your records (and not being that bothered to google them either) I would say nothing personal owning for example an olympic horse means nothing as to the owner's experience. A friend's father owned an olympic dressage horse but he knows nothing of dressage other than the average lay person!


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## cptrayes (31 January 2013)

meardsall_millie said:



			Oi - and I can also claim to be a producer of international event horses!

Beat that SC! 

Click to expand...

me too - I have one in Colorado. OK he only does dressage now, but even so 

Oh, and I produced a dressage horse that wins the Tenerife Championships too, so is he an International Champion?

Pass that gin along!!!


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## Amaranta (31 January 2013)

Would Gloucester qualify as abroad please?


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## Auslander (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			Ummmm...US is considered international  since I am in a totally different country though the same continent so yes....abroad...no..to me abroadis across the pond Germany/UK/Japan...internationally...both in the Jumper and eventing US side yes...we have both competed there in fact together before my accident

And the poor OP...if anyone deserves gin...she should get a whole barrel.
		
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Wow - I've competed internationally then, in Germany and Switzerland. How cool is that? 

Saying a horse has an international record, especially in the context in which you wrote it, infers that it was at squad level - the horse/rider were selected to represent their country.


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## Santa_Claus (31 January 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Would Gloucester qualify as abroad please?
		
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If you're in wales then yes


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Would Gloucester qualify as abroad please?
		
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Depends - are you from, say, Wales (which is a definite yes), or maybe somewhere a long way from Gloucester, how about North Yorkshire?


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

meardsall_millie said:



			Oi - and I can also claim to be a producer of international event horses!

Beat that SC! 

Click to expand...

Yeah, but I did my win on a catch ride, so clearly I am better


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## Amaranta (31 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			Depends - are you from, say, Wales (which is a definite yes), or maybe somewhere a long way from Gloucester, how about North Yorkshire?
		
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Sadly not in Wales, but I was born in Scotland 

It takes me a good 31/2 hours in the lorry


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## stencilface (31 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			Depends - are you from, say, Wales (which is a definite yes), or maybe somewhere a long way from Gloucester, how about North Yorkshire?
		
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If I leave Yorkshire at any point I consider myself to be in a foreign country, so yes


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## only_me (31 January 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			The joke is, only_me, I suspect you have a much better grasp of the complexities of rider position than most of us, given your combination of riding and education. If you're stumped there is not much hope!
		
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Knowing and actually describing are different though - people who ride with rounded shoulders are probably weak in their shoulder stabiliser muscles for example.

I know the basic position and muscles responsible but am a bit stumped as to how naming the muscles helps teach the rider to use them.
If I said to someone activatie your trans ab (front wall muscle of core) they would just suck their tummy in - which is not the trans ab!


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## Santa_Claus (31 January 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Sadly not in Wales, but I was born in Scotland 

It takes me a good 31/2 hours in the lorry 

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In which case you are not naturally from England therefore all events in England are internationals for you!


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## ihatework (31 January 2013)

*IHW cries as she cannot claim to be an international rider*

She did however ride a British champion under an fei judge and beat a British medal winner - that sounds pretty cool - can I have that on my cv?


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

Auslander said:



			Wow - I've competed internationally then, in Germany and Switzerland. How cool is that? 

Saying a horse has an international record, especially in the context in which you wrote it, infers that it was at squad level - the horse/rider were selected to represent their country.
		
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Here is the thing though...see...I have competed abroad with other horses but only internationally with Copper as I have only gone to the US with him

But...if I were to go to the South Americas...I would say that is abroad...so tome...if you are in England and say show...Scotland/Wales...to me that is international....but...even though the distance is short.....if you shown In Germany/Switzeralnd you have left the area of international(your own UK) and to me your experience is abroad...and that is cool ...no sarcasm intoned at all.


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## kerilli (31 January 2013)

actually pmsl here. thanks guys.

Neighham... we really aren't a pack of wolves, I promise. But, umm, your totally impenetrable explanations, bewilderingly random spelling, grammar, punctuation, spacing, neologisms, plus the vids you have posted as 'evidence', the 'International' tag, they all kind of add up to a fair degree of 'wtf' ness...
Oh, and we're kind of used to a Canadian on here, so you can't blame it on that, sorry. Fwiw she explains things clearly, in great detail and complexity at times, and never once has made any of us go "what the actual F is she going on about?!?!"...   

Oh, and I'm an International Event Rider too. Woo hoo. Actually all the time, owing to not having a GB passport, but also because I once competed in Germany. But, it cuts no ice around here, and nor should it... you're judged on what you say and whether it makes any chuffing sense whatsoever.    
Just so as you know. Trying to be helpful here. Really.


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## Auslander (31 January 2013)

Santa_Claus said:



			In which case you are not naturally from England therefore all events in England are internationals for you!
		
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Wow - I'm a Kiwi, so every competition Ive ever done has been international.

I actually deserve to be famous for being the youngest ever winner of an international sack race...


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

ihatework said:



			*IHW cries as she cannot claim to be an international rider*

She did however ride a British champion under an fei judge and beat a British medal winner - that sounds pretty cool - can I have that on my cv?
		
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Oh you should *so* have that on your CV - do you want lessons from me?


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## Molasses (31 January 2013)

this thread is quality, can i have some gin please 

the title should be "Does posting in HHO about yourself need to be so complicated?" just to warn visitors to the thread

as for my ridings complexity, it's is directly proportional to my horses mood


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## kerilli (31 January 2013)

Oh, and nobody has mentioned my very favourite muscles, the psoas muscles, so I might have a strop now. Humph.


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## Auslander (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			Here is the thing though...see...I have competed abroad with other horses but only internationally with Copper as I have only gone to the US with him

But...if I were to go to the South Americas...I would say that is abroad...so tome...if you are in England and say show...Scotland/Wales...to me that is international....but...even though the distance is short.....if you shown In Germany/Switzeralnd you have left the area of international(your own UK) and to me your experience is abroad...and that is cool ...no sarcasm intoned at all.
		
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I really thought that I had clearly explained what "competing internationally" indicated. I guess I failed...


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

Santa_Claus said:



			In which case you are not naturally from England therefore all events in England are internationals for you!
		
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Yes....inside one own continent or common tol leave one country for another is international....outside that domain is the highest level and is considered abroad...again..this term could be just geography too as our countries over here are large equally 2 to the continent and not as numerous as Europe has in it


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## only_me (31 January 2013)

kerilli said:



			Oh, and nobody has mentioned my very favourite muscles, the psoas muscles, so I might have a strop now. Humph.
		
Click to expand...

Oh go and sit on one of these http://www.physioroom.com/product/PhysioRoom.com_Spiky_Massage_Ball_8cm_Pack_of_2/2267/39065.html 




And technically, since I'm from Northern Ireland (which is in UK) but compete in eventing Ireland (which is based in Ireland) does that mean I compete abroad?
Getting confused as I'm from the south of the north


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## Molasses (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			this term could be just geography too as our countries over here are large equally 2 to the continent and not as numerous as Europe has in it
		
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oh no! now geography is getting complicated


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## Amaranta (31 January 2013)

Santa_Claus said:



			In which case you are not naturally from England therefore all events in England are internationals for you!
		
Click to expand...

Yay, I am an international rider, must tell the horses


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## mik (31 January 2013)

kerilli said:



			Oh, and nobody has mentioned my very favourite muscles, the psoas muscles, so I might have a strop now. Humph.
		
Click to expand...

I knew it


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## siennamum (31 January 2013)

Does it count if you compete in multiple dimensions, my horse is often in a World all of his own, does that make him an 'out of this world' horse - or just a bit crap.


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## 3bh (31 January 2013)

I'm an international judge and rider. I've judged some riding club stuff in Scotland, and on my gap yah I rode an equivalent novice test in France. I might be struggling to break the 65 barrier at  BD novice on my current horse,  but that changes nothing!


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## kerilli (31 January 2013)

okay... the thing is, most of us on here have a bit of, ahem, dare I say it, contempt for anyone who has competed abroad at a low level and thereafter claims to be an International Rider, because to us, call us snobs or whatever, an International Rider is a top Pro who goes abroad to do BIG STUFF. 
*trying to be helpful and explain*  
e.g. I would never dream of calling myself an "International Event Rider" even though once upon a time I did a fairly big event (CCI***) in Germany, but I wasn't on a squad or a team, I was there under my own steam, and it was only the once, so imho I didn't earn the right to consider or call myself a big cheese. Does that make sense?


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## brighteyes (31 January 2013)

Nobody has mentioned the incontinentals... pelvic floor muscles are shot to bits.


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

siennamum said:



			Does it count if you compete in multiple dimensions, my horse is often in a World all of his own, does that make him an 'out of this world' horse - or just a bit crap.
		
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No, I am sorry, you must try harder. If you take him to Wales, then you'll both have ridden internationally though, so really, what are you waiting for? Shall we go this weekend? Have you not taken him to Broomes yet?


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## 3bh (31 January 2013)

Has anyone ever been to deepest darkest east anglia? That feels like another world (to get there at least) - does that count?


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## meardsall_millie (31 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			No, I am sorry, you must try harder. If you take him to Wales, then you'll both have ridden internationally though, so really, what are you waiting for? Shall we go this weekend? Have you not taken him to Broomes yet?
		
Click to expand...

See, this is where it's so much easier for you - you're on the right side of the country.  We have so much further to travel.

Unless I went across the border to Norfolk - I'm sure that would count as they all talk funny.....

Perhaps Lolo could clarify?


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## siennamum (31 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			No, I am sorry, you must try harder. If you take him to Wales, then you'll both have ridden internationally though, so really, what are you waiting for? Shall we go this weekend? Have you not taken him to Broomes yet?
		
Click to expand...

Actually I was 2nd in a dressage test in Germany when I was 18 so frankly I have nothing to prove.

Last time we went to Wales we were eliminated so I am not going back, also the water tray at broomes is really really wide so it's a no go for us I'm afraid.


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## meardsall_millie (31 January 2013)

3bh said:



			Has anyone ever been to deepest darkest east anglia? That feels like another world (to get there at least) - does that count?
		
Click to expand...

See, we're on the same wavelength 3bh


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## kerilli (31 January 2013)

3bh said:



			Has anyone ever been to deepest darkest east anglia? That feels like another world (to get there at least) - does that count?
		
Click to expand...

Ahem, I LIVE in deepest darkest flattest East Angular. I consider myself a Universal Eventer because trust me, it's like being on a different planet.


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## Amaranta (31 January 2013)

3bh said:



			Has anyone ever been to deepest darkest east anglia? That feels like another world (to get there at least) - does that count?
		
Click to expand...


Oi


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## Santa_Claus (31 January 2013)

unfortunately for me although born on a little island and moving to England at the age of 18 by your rules I have competed internationally. Actually I have actually represented my Island in team dressage and Showjumping competitions against the likes of the UK, Ireland and France BUT I would never consider myself an international rider. I am a lil lowly amateur who has happened to do half decently to an ok level in a few different disciplines (not GP but not miles away!) and have a decent working and technical knowledge of dressage (well Molly Sivewright and Adam Kemp both once upon a time rated me, Adam even offered me a job!) but I very rarely spout my achievements as I have no need or desire (yes yes I know I have done so here but only to illustrate a point)

On this forum you have to target your replies to the posters both the original and any that may be reading, so far you have massively fallen wide of this going into far too much technical detail. I would normally say to myself would someone with basic understandings understand or at least appreciate the detail of my response? if yes fabulous if not it gets reworded!


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## Amaranta (31 January 2013)

kerilli said:



			Ahem, I LIVE in deepest darkest flattest East Angular. I consider myself a Universal Eventer because trust me, it's like being on a different planet.
		
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Bleddy hell, I was just going to say that I am an Inter Galactic Rider, completely out of this world!


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## mik (31 January 2013)

I am in spain,


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

Molasses said:



			oh no! now geography is getting complicated

Click to expand...

Here I will try to help...on our side we have 2 large land masses we call continents...you guys have continents too but here there is the North American Continent where I live in one of the two countries on it that make up this continent...I live on the top part called Canada...it is one of the largest countries in the world and hard to miss on the map....the US has the lower section and while not as large...you can fit 80% of Europe in it of not up to 90%

On the bottom of this large continent is the South American one....I do not go there....it is a bit unsettled unless one is going to a carribean location

Now...the location differences of countries nevermind whole continents can dictate many things like other language/food choices/terms of communication/religon/customes/tradition.....much like the Scots are neighbours to england yet the accent is so differ3nt...heck..this can happen right in apersons own country if it is big enough or has several provinces/states

Hope this helps....I also hope it helps in showing when I am truly being sarcastic...if this misses the boat I am sure I can do better


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## Baggybreeches (31 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			Depends - are you from, say, Wales (which is a definite yes), or maybe somewhere a long way from Gloucester, how about North Yorkshire?
		
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*chokes*


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## Jesstickle (31 January 2013)

kerilli said:



			Ahem, I LIVE in deepest darkest flattest East Angular. I consider myself a Universal Eventer because trust me, it's like being on a different planet.
		
Click to expand...

You aren't the Angles proper. You float about in that weird part with no trees don't you? 

I am in real Norfolk and I can assure that yes, it is another country, so because I have competed both here and in the home counties I too am an international rider.


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## oldvic (31 January 2013)

In answer to the original question, no, riding and training horses neither should be or is complicated, it just isn't easy! We need to understand the theory which, in itself, is not so hard. When it comes to applying that theory the feeling for what is needed is required and the decisions have to become instinctive otherwise the moment has gone. There is time to think what exercises might help or to tell yourself to sit up or similar but there is not time to say to yourself anything too long winded or complex. Horses actually respond best to a simple set of rules. It is our responsibility to be consistent with our requests and keep things as understandable as possible. That means the combination of leg, seat and rein needs to be suitable for each horse's physical and mental needs but their job stays the same (inside leg, outside leg, inside rein, outside rein and seat).
If I got complicated with any of my clients (human or equine) they would just stand and look at me like I had come from Mars or tell me where to go in fairly plain terms! This is lucky as I'm a simple soul!


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## Baggybreeches (31 January 2013)

3bh said:



			Has anyone ever been to deepest darkest east anglia? That feels like another world (to get there at least) - does that count?
		
Click to expand...

I went to pick some random tatt my OH bought off ebay! It is another world never mind another country.

BTW we once went to do Pony Club Prince Philip Cup in Isle of Man, does that make me an 'abroad' rider? Scotland & Wales don't count as I go there all the time!


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## mik (31 January 2013)

I do love geography


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## Goldenstar (31 January 2013)

mik said:



			I do love geography
		
Click to expand...

Me too I am sitting here with google maps and a bottle of gin slouching my core on the sofa oh and my legs are yielding nicely.


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## Auslander (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			Here I will try to help...on our side we have 2 large land masses we call continents...there is the North American Continent where I live in one of the two countries on it that make up this continent...I live on the top part called Canada...it is one of the largest countries in the world and hard to miss on teh map....the US has the lower section and while not as lage...you can fit 80% of Europe in it of not up to 90%

On the bottom of this large continent is the South American one....I do not go there....it is a bit unsettled unless one is going to a caribean location

Now...the location differences of countries nevermind whole continents can dictatemany things like other language/food choices/terms of communication/religon/customes/tradition.....much like the Scots are neighbours to england yet the accent is so differ3nt...heck..this can happen right in apersons own country if it is big enough or has several provinces/states

Hope this helps....I also hope it helps in showing when I am truly being sarcastic...if this misses the boat I am sure I can do better

Click to expand...

But this is not the issue. The issue is the definition of an international competitor. It's not geographical as much as an indication that someone is good enough to represent their country. That's what people are trying to explain.


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## PapaFrita (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			On the bottom of this large continent is the South American one....I do not go there....it is a bit unsettled unless one is going to a caribean location
		
Click to expand...

Say what?? You base this information on...? There may only be 2 countries in N America, but there are lots and lots in S Am and you really should not be tarring them all with the same brush. Not with school children being murdered in schools in the USA...


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## Auslander (31 January 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			Me too I am sitting here with google maps and a bottle of gin slouching my core on the sofa oh and my legs are yielding nicely.
		
Click to expand...

I wish mine were. I rode my horse today (shock horror) and my legs have already given up, gone to bed and left me to it...


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## Jesstickle (31 January 2013)

PF- you're definitely an international rider!

I love Geography too. I always did like colouring in   (sorry and real geographers, that's all we did at school in geo lessons though  )


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## TarrSteps (31 January 2013)

kerilli said:



			Oh, and nobody has mentioned my very favourite muscles, the psoas muscles, so I might have a strop now. Humph.
		
Click to expand...

I did infer them though, with my seat bone lifting comment, does that count?


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## nieghham (31 January 2013)

Auslander said:



			But this is not the issue. The issue is the definition of an international competitor. It's not geographical as much as an indication that someone is good enough to represent their country. That's what people are trying to explain.
		
Click to expand...

Well...not since I was a Junior then....as an adult I have not represented my country as an official FEI representative.....as a YR...yes...but it was here I started to realize my limits and rehashed my future plans

Now...has any of my horses shown internationally under this defintion....yes....did I have anything to do with their training and rise until the rider was selected...you bet....I have started/broke/trained these kinds of horses yes.

But under the definition which Auslander finally decided to give to explain the differences in the terms...no..I have not ridden interantionally as an *official long listed rider/country representative *in over 33 years


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## TarrSteps (31 January 2013)

PapaFrita said:



			Say what?? You base this information on...? There may only be 2 countries in N America, but there are lots and lots in S Am and you really should not be tarring them all with the same brush. Not with school children being murdered in schools in the USA...
		
Click to expand...

I thought that comment might not sit well with you . . .


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## TarrSteps (31 January 2013)

oldvic said:



			In answer to the original question, no, riding and training horses neither should be or is complicated, it just isn't easy! We need to understand the theory which, in itself, is not so hard. When it comes to applying that theory the feeling for what is needed is required and the decisions have to become instinctive otherwise the moment has gone. There is time to think what exercises might help or to tell yourself to sit up or similar but there is not time to say to yourself anything too long winded or complex. Horses actually respond best to a simple set of rules. It is our responsibility to be consistent with our requests and keep things as understandable as possible. That means the combination of leg, seat and rein needs to be suitable for each horse's physical and mental needs but their job stays the same (inside leg, outside leg, inside rein, outside rein and seat).
If I got complicated with any of my clients (human or equine) they would just stand and look at me like I had come from Mars or tell me where to go in fairly plain terms! This is lucky as I'm a simple soul!
		
Click to expand...


That.


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## Auslander (31 January 2013)

nieghham said:



			Well...not since I was a Junior then....as an adult I have not represented my country as an official FEI representative.....as a YR...yes...but it was here I started to realize my limits and rehashed my future plans

Now...has any of my horses shown internationally under this defintion....yes....did I have anything to do with their training and rise until the rider was selected...you bet....I have started/broke/trained these kinds of horses yes.

But under the definition which Auslander finally decided to give to explain the differences in the terms...no..I have not ridden interantionally as an *official long listed rider/country representative *in over 33 years
		
Click to expand...

Call me Charlotte - now we've been formally introduced 
I has already explained the definition - as had several others...


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## PapaFrita (31 January 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			I thought that comment might not sit well with you . . .
		
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You know me so well


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## Lolo (31 January 2013)

meardsall_millie said:



			See, this is where it's so much easier for you - you're on the right side of the country.  We have so much further to travel.

Unless I went across the border to Norfolk - I'm sure that would count as they all talk funny.....

Perhaps Lolo could clarify? 

Click to expand...

We don't talk funny, we just freestyle. 

Can Norfolk count as a separate country? Because then Al ad I would both be international riders... I mean, it takes us well over an hour to leave the bloomin place. It would almost be quicker to get to France than to Wales


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## Jesstickle (31 January 2013)

Lolo said:



			We don't talk funny, we just freestyle. 

Can Norfolk count as a separate country? Because then Al ad I would both be international riders... I mean, it takes us well over an hour to leave the bloomin place. It would almost be quicker to get to France than to Wales 

Click to expand...

I already declared it a foreign country. So yep, that's all of us riding internationally


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

PapaFrita said:



			Say what?? You base this information on...? There may only be 2 countries in N America, but there are lots and lots in S Am and you really should not be tarring them all with the same brush. Not with school children being murdered in schools in the USA...
		
Click to expand...




TarrSteps said:



			I thought that comment might not sit well with you . . .
		
Click to expand...

In all fairness, nieghham did say at the bottom of that spiel that she was being sarcastic and hoped it didn't miss the boat. 

Look, there it is, her sarcasm on the dock, waving as the ferry rolls off across the waves to Rantland....


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## Molasses (31 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			Look, there it is, her sarcasm on the dock, waving as the ferry rolls off across the waves to Rantland....

Click to expand...

Oh no! now sarcasm is getting complicated

Is the ocean in Rantland made of Gin?


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## PapaFrita (31 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			In all fairness, nieghham did say at the bottom of that spiel that she was being sarcastic and hoped it didn't miss the boat. 

Look, there it is, her sarcasm on the dock, waving as the ferry rolls off across the waves to Rantland....

Click to expand...

I didn't understand that, either. Must procure dunce's hat


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## SpottedCat (31 January 2013)

Molasses said:



			Oh no! now sarcasm is getting complicated

Is the ocean in Rantland made of Gin?
		
Click to expand...

It seemed appropriate, no? 

And yes, of course the sea is made of gin.


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## Molasses (31 January 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			It seemed appropriate, no? 

And yes, of course the sea is made of gin. 

Click to expand...

Awesome
I'm moving 

One ticket to south of the west of the 2 countries in the north of Rantland please


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## Littlelegs (31 January 2013)

I wrote a long reply at work, then realised the time & thought I'd better finish my actual work & lost it. It basically said no, riding doesn't need to be complicated. 
  I am loving the way this thread has gone though, I always wanted to be an international rider when I was little, & it seems like I now am by the new definition of 'international'. I can even say I have represented my country sj abroad, in that I was the only person present competing that day with a British passport. (doesn't matter about the fact it wasn't even affiliated & I was on a borrowed young horse cos I was staying with a friends family on holiday). Plus Wales I've done affiliated stuff. Olympics here I come!


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## Baydale (31 January 2013)

Lolo said:



			We don't talk funny, we just freestyle. 

Can Norfolk count as a separate country? Because then Al ad I would both be international riders... I mean, it takes us well over an hour to leave the bloomin place. It would almost be quicker to get to France than to Wales 

Click to expand...

Awesome, not only do I travel internationally to work (get me ) but apparently I'm bilingual too.  On that basis I'll be asking for a pay review tomorrow. 

Back to the OP, I do think the best trainers are the ones that give you a clear and simple way to do something, then develop your feel by being alongside you at just the right time saying "yes, that's it!" when you put it all together and have the light bulb moment. A few of those moments and surely that's when you start to develop the automatic/instinctive side of riding?


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## nieghham (1 February 2013)

PapaFrita said:



			Say what?? You base this information on...? There may only be 2 countries in N America, but there are lots and lots in S Am and you really should not be tarring them all with the same brush. Not with school children being murdered in schools in the USA...
		
Click to expand...

This is from post 208 and this is what I wrote




Quote:
Originally Posted by nieghham  
On the bottom of this large continent is the South American one....I do not go there....it is a bit unsettled unless one is going to a caribean location 


no where do I mention anything about countries only that Iwill not go onto  any of the South American continent *unless it is a caribbean location which is vacation locations like Jamaca or St.Pauls....where 10,000 of people go every year

And to compare the shootings of those children with what the ones in South America suffer daily....to them...that would be trivial....street gang fighting...the cartrell forcing them to work in the cocaine factories

Understand I am not trivializing the shootings or lives lost...but if you want to compare the Latin American  part of that continent...you need to go to another country like say India o rAfrica/Hatia.

Outside the "tourists" areas is far worse than anything the US suffers....even the tourist islands poor make only a few dollars a day..and they do not have welfare of government assistance

Oh...and I base my information off my daughter who taught as a missionary there.

If one is truly interested just google South America Cartel/children sex trade/cocaine market/child labour

Then google the tourist places like Jamaca and see the difference*


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## nieghham (1 February 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			In all fairness, nieghham did say at the bottom of that spiel that she was being sarcastic and hoped it didn't miss the boat. 

Look, there it is, her sarcasm on the dock, waving as the ferry rolls off across the waves to Rantland....

Click to expand...

Thank you.....you see..I do not mind sarcasm in fun.

I will admit my use of sarcasm there was to drive home a point I was trying to make about how different countries use different terms sometimes for the same thing...and sometime not

This was after I had used several examples to explain how people across the pond....who from geographical location alone being separated by an entire ocean may be causing a miscommunication...several times in fact

And people mocked 

It was either Tarr or Tonk who beratted me in a couple post stating how detail of everything is important...how it frustrates them and crosses them when left out or terms are different....I then went into detail (which now I find is wrong) and asked for patience while I learned your terms...they have expressed opinions/asked some questions and mocked a little but mostly asked

alot of the rest mocked

I explained I am not here to coach/change the world of riding/step on toes/intentionally disrespectmembers even apologising when I came unintentionally across like condendsending

And yet...some members still mocked

I have been accused of saying the word "you ride wrong/your way is wrong/you are wrong/my way is best/no only my way works" and yet when asked for the post in quote it was not given and this went on by of course...

Mocking

It took quite awhile for someone to explain the difference even after I explained what the terms meant here to the majority here several times....and even when I realized and explained the miscommunication

members mocked

This reminds me of a saying

*It is not the worse thing I could do by bearing or raising a handicapped child....I could domuch worse by raising one that mocks/judges/bullies/scorns one*

I find this is an umbrella term when describing the true colours people show at times though I will admit I do not feel I have been bullied here

I do not believe I have acted disrespectfully to any member nor named call them nor judge any unfairly nor asked any todefend a position/view/opinion....and when it was mentioned I sincerely apologised

I believe I have made every effort to answer questions for those who have asked

I do realize some people go with the phylosophy of life is hard...life is unfair...life is a bitch and so am I therefore I am strong...do not get in my way or I will knock you down....prove yourself to me you owe that

I just do not happen to be of that crowd

I think it takes more strength to be patient and ask kindly questions and find out things than to immediately judge/assume things

I think it takes more strength to think of others ...to take a moment... to put out your hand and help them up  while dealing with life issues and not taking it out on others or blaming them for what life has done to you

I think it takes more strength to be kind and strong than judgemental and a bitch mocking people before really getting to know them....especially if they do not recipercate

But...that is just my phylosophy....it is not one for everyone...it is not the only on  nor is it "THE" right....like all those who have them...this is just my mine and the one I try tolive by

I am only human though and do falter....we saw it here with the boat post and I am sorry but I ran out of options and realized with somepeople I need to speak their language.....soooooo....I am not always successful with my phylosphy.....but I most certainly never try to mock/judge/insult/belittle/whatever anyone and most certainly opologise if I have

Those of course who do choose to mock/judge/assume will continue to do so showing their true colours of character to me....the rest I ask again for some patience while I learn the difference...again loo-bathroom...and chips to us are french fries
As for any threads like this....sigh...is it details or is it not as I was told by a member who stressed exactly that it is in the detail of the explaination or is it like buying a car where you you know how to start it and push pedals but god forbid a tire blows or the oil needs checking sort of thing

Are differencesof styles/theory/tools/health/feed/whatever be allowed to be discussed or will they be mocked.

Will term differences/miscommunications be sorted with civil attempts or is mock the talk here

Any clue from members is apreciated and I thank those who have already made the sincere attempt


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## TarrSteps (1 February 2013)

Uh oh. . . .

PF does LIVE there. 


I'm sure there are awful things in South America but I think that post does sum up why some people have their knickers in a twist, neighman.  I'm sure there is validity in what you wrote but to say to someone who LIVES there that this is all there is to it is, well, offensive.  

I actually know who you are and I do understand that you are not trying to offend or to assume that anyone on here is somehow too dense to understand what you're talking about but it is coming across that way, a bit.  And I've had about 30 years of instruction in Canada - probably from some of the same people as you! - and have never had things explained in such an impenetrable way.  I've had people asking me this week if this is how Canadians teach!?  I am confused by this idea that location/culture is behind the confusion . . .mostly here they mock me for my slang and my spelling! I have simply never had or heard these conversations talking to riders, trainers and judges at home. Not even at Balkenhol's seminar or in discussion with Team riders.  I'll admit I have only seen Walter teach once and while I admire his take on things, I find some of his hard core followers a bit hard to take.  No reflection on the man himself!

I realise this is your way and it works for you.  I also realise that this is a discussion and not a lesson (lost of a few people originally, I think). I even actually agree with the details of much of what you have written - those fine adjustments to position and balance are the details of good riding.  But what is the end to making things so complicated that good, educated riders - let alone riders who may not yet have that level of experience - can't follow.  There are people on this thread that have ridden and judged well into the FEI levels, who take training with - and even train top people.  You have said that is your positions too, so fair enough they asked for proof.  I know you haven't SAID they are numpties (roughly, idiots) who do not ride at a high enough level to "get it" at the level you are discussing things, but that is how it has come across.  I'm sure they would be happy to discuss theory with you - they put up with me, or at least they are polite enough to pretend to - it's all just gone a bit wrong.  And, to be honest, at this point "they" have Olympic dressage medals and we do not! I'm not saying everyone here rides better than everyone in Canada but I would say yes, more people here have been exposed to very good dressage riding and training.  And that is really saying something as anyone I know who regularly goes to the Continent to train would roll their eyes at that statement! 

And, for what it's worth, I don't think the natives have all covered themselves in glory either.  I know it's all a joke but some of it has verged on bullying.  After all, what does any of it mean to any of us? We go away and ride our horses and do what works for us and leave others to what works for them.

I blame the weather.  If we were all out riding we wouldn't have time to split hairs!

Well, except for PF who is baking in the South American sun.


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## ihatework (1 February 2013)

There is a saying in the uk, presume you have heard similar ...

When in a hole stop digging!


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## kerilli (1 February 2013)

Baydale said:



			Back to the OP, I do think the best trainers are the ones that give you a clear and simple way to do something, then develop your feel by being alongside you at just the right time saying "yes, that's it!" when you put it all together and have the light bulb moment. A few of those moments and surely that's when you start to develop the automatic/instinctive side of riding?
		
Click to expand...

This! This this this! Exactly.

Nieghham, I hope you'll stick around, and I hope that maybe you'll be able to slightly simplify the way you post on here to enable us all to understand you. 
Fwiw I can talk dressage theory for hours, happily, but I have never read anything as impenetrable and obfuscatory as your posts! Maybe your passion to get the message across means that you type in a 'stream of consciousness' way, or something? I don't consider myself stupid, I read fast and have a Degree in English Literature fgs, but I honestly couldn't get through some of your paragraphs! So, please, if you could just make them a bit easier, that would help. 
You took the ganging-up on here very well, for which I applaud you. I hope you realise that the Brits' default setting is to mock, including their friends... don't take it personally!


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## TableDancer (1 February 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Uh oh. . . .

PF does LIVE there. 


I'm sure there are awful things in South America but I think that post does sum up why some people have their knickers in a twist, neighman.  I'm sure there is validity in what you wrote but to say to someone who LIVES there that this is all there is to it is, well, offensive.  

I actually know who you are and I do understand that you are not trying to offend or to assume that anyone on here is somehow too dense to understand what you're talking about but it is coming across that way, a bit.  And I've had about 30 years of instruction in Canada - probably from some of the same people as you! - and have never had things explained in such an impenetrable way.  I've had people asking me this week if this is how Canadians teach!?  I am confused by this idea that location/culture is behind the confusion . . .mostly here they mock me for my slang and my spelling! I have simply never had or heard these conversations talking to riders, trainers and judges at home. Not even at Balkenhol's seminar or in discussion with Team riders.  I'll admit I have only seen Walter teach once and while I admire his take on things, I find some of his hard core followers a bit hard to take.  No reflection on the man himself!

I realise this is your way and it works for you.  I also realise that this is a discussion and not a lesson (lost of a few people originally, I think). I even actually agree with the details of much of what you have written - those fine adjustments to position and balance are the details of good riding.  But what is the end to making things so complicated that good, educated riders - let alone riders who may not yet have that level of experience - can't follow.  There are people on this thread that have ridden and judged well into the FEI levels, who take training with - and even train top people.  You have said that is your positions too, so fair enough they asked for proof.  I know you haven't SAID they are numpties (roughly, idiots) who do not ride at a high enough level to "get it" at the level you are discussing things, but that is how it has come across.  I'm sure they would be happy to discuss theory with you - they put up with me, or at least they are polite enough to pretend to - it's all just gone a bit wrong.  And, to be honest, at this point "they" have Olympic dressage medals and we do not! I'm not saying everyone here rides better than everyone in Canada but I would say yes, more people here have been exposed to very good dressage riding and training.  And that is really saying something as anyone I know who regularly goes to the Continent to train would roll their eyes at that statement! 

And, for what it's worth, I don't think the natives have all covered themselves in glory either.  I know it's all a joke but some of it has verged on bullying.  After all, what does any of it mean to any of us? We go away and ride our horses and do what works for us and leave others to what works for them.

I blame the weather.  If we were all out riding we wouldn't have time to split hairs!

Well, except for PF who is baking in the South American sun. 

Click to expand...

Bravo!! I agree with every word of this - apart from the comments on Canadian training/trainers, of which I have no experience and hence can't comment. I apologise if I contributed to the confusion regarding the relevance, or lack of, of transatlantic cultural differences - my OH who used to be a MD of RBC disagreed too so I am clearly wrong  Now come on, girls, let's play nicely from now on


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## Thistle (1 February 2013)

Was there nothing good on TV last night? I watched Silent Witness, the plot, as usual was as complicated and impossible as some posts on here.

Having just read the lot I would like to announce that I too am an international rider. I am Welsh but live in England. I have competed in both countries. I also have competed for a UK Student team in Switzerland (that even had a 'selection process')

My breeding is such that my children could compete internationally for any of the home nations seeing as my OH is Irish/English, with Scottish ancestry and last name!


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## WellyBaggins (1 February 2013)

Blimey  that was a heavy 15 mins, need gin..............


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## Goldenstar (1 February 2013)

WellyBaggins said:



			Blimey  that was a heavy 15 mins, need gin..............
		
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Wow at this time in the morning as well , try going for a ride instead if you can I don't know about with you but here the sun is out I can see lots of blue sky and the wind has gone , life feels good.
By 7pm I'll prob be after the gin again though.


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## WellyBaggins (1 February 2013)

I was planning on going for a ride but that now seems a little straight forward, can I do that?  Just tack up, hop on and go?  Doesn't now seem like much prep???    See, I need the gin to clear my head


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## Thistle (1 February 2013)

peeing down here, horses still in with extra rations. Will go to farm shop to stock up for weekend (they sell gin!) and turn out when I return.

Just realised my whole family are international competitors, kids did ski school races when they were little. OH is just competitive anyway, esp when driving abroad!


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## Goldenstar (1 February 2013)

What about my issues first job is my six yo who I thought did pretty neat leg yielding until yesterday seriously I am scared to get on.


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## Horsemad12 (1 February 2013)

Baydale said:



			Back to the OP, I do think the best trainers are the ones that give you a clear and simple way to do something, then develop your feel by being alongside you at just the right time saying "yes, that's it!" when you put it all together and have the light bulb moment. A few of those moments and surely that's when you start to develop the automatic/instinctive side of riding?
		
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Ignoring tangent this post has gone off in,  I totally agree with this.

My "simple" brain cannot register everything at once and cannot work on changing everything at once or being perfect, you need to build the blocks / feel in the right order so each one becomes "normal / instinctive" and then work on the next.

Some people / good riders maybe get some of the blocks automatically so progress quicker than others.

Luckily I have an instructor that helps me build and establish the blocks and then pushes for the next one - does that make sense?

Finally whilst I agree that you need to think and be aware of your riding, sometimes over thinking is not a good thing esp. when jumping as it does slow your reactions down.


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## WellyBaggins (1 February 2013)

Oh my, good luck with that, the gin sounding more appealing now?  I'm off for a ride, wish me luck, I have not ridden at international level so I may need it


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## Baydale (1 February 2013)

kerilli said:



			This! This this this! Exactly.

Nieghham, I hope you'll stick around, and I hope that maybe you'll be able to slightly simplify the way you post on here to enable us all to understand you. 
Fwiw I can talk dressage theory for hours, happily, but I have never read anything as impenetrable and obfuscatory as your posts! Maybe your passion to get the message across means that you type in a 'stream of consciousness' way, or something? I don't consider myself stupid, I read fast and have a Degree in English Literature fgs, but I honestly couldn't get through some of your paragraphs! So, please, if you could just make them a bit easier, that would help. 
You took the ganging-up on here very well, for which I applaud you. I hope you realise that the Brits' default setting is to mock, including their friends... don't take it personally!
		
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Ditto this, K. I hope Neigham does stay around as I like her passion for all things equestrian and it would be a dull old world if we were all the same, wouldn't it?  As for the mocking: personally, I see the gentle ribbing as a sign of affection from my friends and would be more offended if they *didn't* take the mickey out of me.


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## Goldenstar (1 February 2013)

On jumping years ago I went to a very good well known trainer for help with my not good show jumping .
I just can't see a stride I said hanging my head .
You know that really uncomfortable feeling you get in front of a fence said he 
Yes I said.
Great , he replied that's you seeing a stride now I'll teach you what to do about it I will never  ever forget that feeling of hope and excitement that lesson gave me that's what good training should do.


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## SpottedCat (1 February 2013)

It is a peculiarly British thing to mock our friends and be painfully polite to people we dislike - I haven't come across it anywhere else in quite the same way, and it makes for some real confusion! In much the same vein, it took the person I trained with in the USA several weeks to work out what time I'd be arriving when I said 'half nine' as they don't use that type of expression there, and this column always makes me laugh as it is so true: http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2011/05/euphemistically_speaking


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## Wagtail (1 February 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			On jumping years ago I went to a very good well known trainer for help with my not good show jumping .
I just can't see a stride I said hanging my head .
You know that really uncomfortable feeling you get in front of a fence said he 
Yes I said.
Great , he replied that's you seeing a stride now I'll teach you what to do about it I will never  ever forget that feeling of hope and excitement that lesson gave me that's what good training should do.
		
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Brilliant. What a good way of putting it. I always found the more conscious I was about seeing a stride, the worse it got. It didn't help that my mare was the worst horse I have ridden for seeing a stride. If I adjusted her so that she was set up just right, she would lengthen and balls it up and I'd end up trying to put her right and we'd have the fence down . Bless her, she did get better and listened more as we progressed. My other mare (not mine, but I had the ride) was the best jumper I have ever sat on. You didn't have to do a thing. She would get her stride 100% right every time and could jump a 6 foot oxer. Shame my friend sold her.


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## ihatework (1 February 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			On jumping years ago I went to a very good well known trainer for help with my not good show jumping .
I just can't see a stride I said hanging my head .
You know that really uncomfortable feeling you get in front of a fence said he 
Yes I said.
Great , he replied that's you seeing a stride now I'll teach you what to do about it I will never  ever forget that feeling of hope and excitement that lesson gave me that's what good training should do.
		
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I've never heard that before, but what an excellent example!


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## Molasses (1 February 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			this column always makes me laugh as it is so true: http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2011/05/euphemistically_speaking

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I loved this
Its so true 
I'm so polite to people i dislike, you can feel the air freeze around me

But what is with the horse-sport for endeavouring the make us feel inadequate, i've never come across it in other sports. Is it because we&#8217;re less than half a century away from the time when riding was incredibly linked to class and the military and that still permeates through the teaching?


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## FfionWinnie (1 February 2013)

TableDancer said:



			Interesting thread  Originally I was going to pile in with the "of course it doesn't need to be complicated" argument, but having read through all the responses I've realised that the answer is, er, a bit more complicated  

I guess riding, and any sport at a high level, is indeed quite complex and there is no doubt that we never stop learning, which - given the age of some of us - suggests there is a lot to learn  I think the issue is one of simplicity (or the opposite) of communication rather than simplicity of technique. So some of the techniques you need to master to ride successfully at a high level are quite complex, however the skill of a good coach is in expressing these ideas in a clear, easy to understand fashion. I'm not just talking about when we are standing in a cold school teaching a client, but also when conducting discussions like the ones on this forum. It is very clear to me in reading the threads that some of the participants are far more skilled than others in this important respect. It is a shame, because what are possibly useful and valid ideas become lost in a fog of unnecessarily multi-syllabic, ridiculously verbose statements. It is inevitable that a large proportion of the audience get turned off, and another proportion get wound up. I think some of the problem is a cultural one: here in Britain we tend to seek to express complex ideas as simply and concisely as possible; my perception is that on the other side of the pond there may be a greater respect for verbosity and grammatical gymnastics 

I have to say, Neigham, I too found the videos you have posted unhelpful in proving your veracity as a correct, higher level trainer - I understand that the context may well be more complicated and there are mitigating circumstances, but you didn't provide us with them to start with so we must be forgiven for drawing our own conclusions.
		
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Really good post TD and sums up my thoughts more eloquently than I could manage!

Neigham, I'm not being rude but your posting style is highly difficult to read with all those ...  Proper punctuation is used for a reason, makes it easy for people to read fluently. 

When I asked for the videos I was hoping to see the riding with little or no need for the reins you mentioned in another post as I am trying to develop this with my youngster at the moment. Do you have any videos which demonstrate that please.


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## TrasaM (1 February 2013)

I think we all now realise why riding Can seem so difficult.  
Thread started off simple enough then got mired down in excessive detail leading to disagreement about what exactly was meant by what phrase. then everyone realises that it's all getting far too confusing and revert back to keeping it simple. The story of my riding journey


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## FfionWinnie (1 February 2013)

ihatework said:



			*IHW cries as she cannot claim to be an international rider*

She did however ride a British champion under an fei judge and beat a British medal winner - that sounds pretty cool - can I have that on my cv?
		
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My horse is an American!  So she is an international horse!  Ooh actually my other two are Welsh living in Scotland therefore


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## TrasaM (1 February 2013)

FfionWinnie said:



			My horse is an American!  So she is an international horse!  Ooh actually my other two are Welsh living in Scotland therefore 

Click to expand...

I ride an Arab cross AND an ID x Dutch WB I am doubly international. AND I once went trekking in Wales and regularly ride in the UAE and Ireland. And I'm Irish


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## TarrSteps (1 February 2013)

That's a great anecdote, Gs! It's so true and explains that little 'ah ha' moment when you come out of the corner and there is a jumpabled distance right there waiting. 

I'm just chuffed TD's OH agrees with me!


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## TarrSteps (1 February 2013)

Oi, hang on. . .generally everyone is very polite to me on here . . .NOW I get it!


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## Littlelegs (1 February 2013)

I think riding is only complex in a mental way if you haven't grasped the physical side. Very basic explanations suffice before you actually physically feel what's happening or not, & once you can physically do it, the more complex explanations are no longer complex. Over xmas my daughter was obsessed with a YouTube film of totillas gangnam style. She's just turned 8 so its not as though she has any concept of riding at that level (& neither do I) but upon asking me how they got him to do x,y,z movements, she could follow my basic explanations. Whereas my non-horsey, but very intelligent boyfriend couldn't. And I think that goes right through the levels of experience. GP dressage & scoring is unbelievably complex to explain to a beginner or the non-horsey, even in basic terms. But to someone riding at psg, even the more technical & complex aspects are mentally, (if not physically!) very easy to grasp.


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## Kat (1 February 2013)

Crikey and people were worried yesterday that the forum changes would mean that there would be less "good arguments" on HHO!


ETA
*fewer* good arguments not arguments of lesser quality.


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## Caol Ila (1 February 2013)

My horse is *actually* an international horse.  Born and bred in Colorado and now living here in Scotland.  I competed at a schooling show near Edinburgh a few years ago (I quit real dressage shows many years before moving across the Atlantic), so I guess that makes us international competitors.  Woohoo!!!!

Was I the only HHO person who found Neigham's analogising the Canadian/US border to the English/Welsh/Scottish border, well... completely wrong.  Unless Scotland and Wales got independence while I wasn't looking, they're still part of the United Kingdom.  While many Scots and Welsh might like to be their own sovereign states, this is not the case at the moment (bring on 2014).  Canada, as I'm sure you all know, is in fact a sovereign state and all the Canadians I know would be mortally offended at the thought of being part of the US.  

The better analogy is that the constituent parts of the UK are more like American states, a federalist-ish system if you will. They have some powers devolved to them but ultimately are still beholden to the national government in Westminster.

That's today's geography and politics lesson.  Carry on.


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## TarrSteps (1 February 2013)

To be fair, CI, in horsey terms the border is pretty porous! Lots of people do just go for a month or two, or even just a single competition. 

But yes, your point is valid, of course. Although I think Canadians are getting more relaxed about that, given the way the world has gone.  We are not so much looking like the poor relations these days and the Americans not even knowing where we are stings less as they increasingly become international laughing stocks.


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## Caol Ila (1 February 2013)

I recall crossing the border as a student and getting *grilled* by Canadian customs.  And there was me thinking Canada was this nice, smiley friendly place!  It didn't feel like a very porous border.  

In fairness, they were probably fed up with the deluge of American students coming over to take advantage of Canada's lower drinking age.


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## TarrSteps (1 February 2013)

Or, in the case of the Vietnam war, coming in, signing up for socialised medicine, low tuition etc then scooting off home the second they were pardoned. 

Anyway, we are polite, we are not friendly. There has been some confusion. . .


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## Caol Ila (1 February 2013)

Different eras.....

In the early 2000s, it really was just to drink.  No draft avoidance, conscientiousness or higher ethics and morals about it.

Did you hear about the Republicans who were threatening to move to Canada if Obama's "socialist" healthcare legislation passed?


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## TarrSteps (1 February 2013)

Well, they might feel right at home in Harper's Canada. .  .


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## PapaFrita (1 February 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			On jumping years ago I went to a very good well known trainer for help with my not good show jumping .
I just can't see a stride I said hanging my head .
You know that really uncomfortable feeling you get in front of a fence said he 
Yes I said.
Great , he replied that's you seeing a stride now I'll teach you what to do about it I will never  ever forget that feeling of hope and excitement that lesson gave me that's what good training should do.
		
Click to expand...

Brilliant


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## PapaFrita (1 February 2013)

nieghham said:



			This is from post 208 and this is what I wrote




Quote:
Originally Posted by nieghham  
On the bottom of this large continent is the South American one....I do not go there....it is a bit unsettled unless one is going to a caribean location 


no where do I mention anything about countries only that Iwill not go onto  any of the South American continent *unless it is a caribbean location which is vacation locations like Jamaca or St.Pauls....where 10,000 of people go every year

And to compare the shootings of those children with what the ones in South America suffer daily....to them...that would be trivial....street gang fighting...the cartrell forcing them to work in the cocaine factories

Understand I am not trivializing the shootings or lives lost...but if you want to compare the Latin American  part of that continent...you need to go to another country like say India o rAfrica/Hatia.

Outside the "tourists" areas is far worse than anything the US suffers....even the tourist islands poor make only a few dollars a day..and they do not have welfare of government assistance

Oh...and I base my information off my daughter who taught as a missionary there.

If one is truly interested just google South America Cartel/children sex trade/cocaine market/child labour

Then google the tourist places like Jamaca and see the difference*

Click to expand...

*
Oh my GOD you are going to make my head explode. 
Please do us all in South America (yes, I DO LIVE HERE) a favour and DO NOT come and visit with your ignorant ideas and narrow mind. Your generalisations are exactly the same as me saying that in North America you are all Rednecks, gangs, drug dealers and child murderers. 
Get your head out of your own backside.

And thank you TarrSteps for being so tactful *


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## ester (1 February 2013)

I'd still come visit you PF


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## Goldenstar (1 February 2013)

ester said:



			I'd still come visit you PF 

Click to expand...

Me too , I've never been anywhere in south America .


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## TrasaM (1 February 2013)

Uumh  not sure that Jamaica is the wonderful safe place she's making it out to be. Just more familiar.  The statistics on USA citizens who have passports is quite interesting. It seems that the vast proportion don't travel out of the USA very much. 
PF I'd happily visit you


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## Santa_Claus (1 February 2013)

And me as although I don't get on with him my dad was born in Nicaragua when my grandparents were missionaries there back in the 1950's and I would love to do a tour of Central America and not the tourist parts!


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## Goldenstar (1 February 2013)

I think us lot might not be too popular in Argentina ATM though.


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## TrasaM (1 February 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			I think us lot might not be too popular in Argentina ATM though.
		
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Got an Irish passport  I'm good to go.


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## Goldenstar (1 February 2013)

TrasaM said:



			Got an Irish passport  I'm good to go.
		
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Oh I can get one of those OH has one because he's Irish.


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## mik (1 February 2013)

I give up, I am going  to watch the GP at the sunshine tour and ask everyone I meet how to leg yield.


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## Goldenstar (1 February 2013)

mik said:



			I give up, I am going  to watch the GP at the sunshine tour and ask everyone I meet how to leg yield.
		
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Oh please report back later, I suggest you shout out during the tests during the half passes so the riders can tell you what they are doing,
Ps I am a wee bit jealous.


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## PapaFrita (1 February 2013)

ester said:



			I'd still come visit you PF 

Click to expand...

Would be happy to have you. And I can promise I won't put you to work in my cocaine factory


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## PapaFrita (1 February 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			I think us lot might not be too popular in Argentina ATM though.
		
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Do you mean because of the Falklands, because honestly, I don't know anyone who gives a toss  It's (as in 1982) a Government attempt to distract the people from the appalling state of the economy and industry.


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## PapaFrita (1 February 2013)

mik said:



			I give up, I am going  to watch the GP at the sunshine tour and ask everyone I meet how to leg yield.
		
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Please take copious notes and report back


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## Goldenstar (1 February 2013)

PapaFrita said:



			Do you mean because of the Falklands, because honestly, I don't know anyone who gives a toss  It's (as in 1982) a Government attempt to distract the people from the appalling state of the economy and industry.
		
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That's good to know , that people don't care not the state of the economy , I am excited you own a drugs factory I imagined you herding extremly tasty cows or breeding polo ponies.
I hope mik gets home from the dressage and does not get locked up for stalking .


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## PapaFrita (1 February 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			That's good to know , that people don't care not the state of the economy , I am excited you own a drugs factory I imagined you herding extremly tasty cows or breeding polo ponies.
I hope mik gets home from the dressage and does not get locked up for stalking .
		
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Oh yes, producing drugs for the very demanding and decadent North American market is fantastically profitable


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## Goldenstar (1 February 2013)

PapaFrita said:



			Oh yes, producing drugs for the very demanding and decadent North American market is fantastically profitable 

Click to expand...

Excellent keeps all PF ponies in golden bound Rugs in air conditioned luxury in a huge complex deep ino the pampas a bit like my little pony meets a bond villain Do you have a long haired  cat or perhaps a shark .
I feel you ought.
It's a great idea always to give the decadent north Americans what they want while maintaining a decent level of decadence yourself of course.
Now want do those Canadians need ?


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## TarrSteps (1 February 2013)

Since we're splitting hairs and getting on our nationalistic high horses, TrasaM, the traveller in question is not American. . .


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## Maia (1 February 2013)

IMO, no, it doesn't! And while I totally appreciate that people are trying to help, and for some people it is very helpful, for anyone with a dyspraxic brain that needs to just learn feel and to get on with it, I don't think it serves a purpose. Having played and exercised polo ponies through school and uni I quickly learnt these are possibly some of the most responsive horses out! Was I taught about rein pulling and seat weighting, nope! You just move and the pony relaxes - reins like a joystick, left/right shift of weight for sideways stuff, legs for go (less so for turning as they do funny things when swinging for the ball) and reins/thighs for woah. Simples and learnt entirely through just getting on with it, not do this with this muscle/leg/bone etc. simples.


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## Maia (1 February 2013)

And having now read the entire thread (there goes an hour of my life I'll never get back again!!) I can confirm that I am still alive, not rocking (though that could be the merits of the gin!) and my poor horse has progressed beyond halt having resorted to my tried and tested strategy of if confused go for a gallop, go with your gut, and sod the dressage until instructor is next up and play over poles instead


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## cobden99 (2 February 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Uh 

And, for what it's worth, I don't think the natives have all covered themselves in glory either.  I know it's all a joke but some of it has verged on bullying.  After all, what does any of it mean to any of us? We go away and ride our horses and do what works for us and leave others to what works for them.

)
		
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I haven't read the rest of the many pages of posts - but agree with the above


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