# Avian flu confirmed in backyard flock in Yorkshire 6-1-17



## MotherOfChickens (6 January 2017)

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/avian-flu-confirmed-in-backyard-flock-in-yorkshire


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## PorkChop (6 January 2017)

Cases in Dorset, Devon and Conwy too


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## MotherOfChickens (6 January 2017)

PorkChop said:



			Cases in Dorset, Devon and Conwy too 

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yes, posted this earlier on the other thread-but these are wild birds


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...achment_data/file/581937/ai-findings-1617.csv


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## Cavalier (10 January 2017)

Thanks for posting, I hadn't seen this, Settle is about 35 miles from me. I have my chickens in gazebos with lots of bird netting round so hopefully ok. One of my near neighbors has not put his under cover at all which is worrying.


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## jrp204 (10 January 2017)

We have friends with 15000 free range hens and 10000 enriched. Obviously everything is in. They were unable to get insurance and apparently the clean up costs will be about 200k if they went down with it. Tense times!


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## MotherOfChickens (10 January 2017)

Cavalier said:



			One of my near neighbors has not put his under cover at all which is worrying.
		
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I am lucky, noone near me keeps birds but if they did, and had made no effort I would be fuming. Grapevine has it that the ones in Settle were not contained.


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## teacups (10 January 2017)

A lot of people in our village haven't done anything, including my immediate neigbours. Interestingly it's mainly the farming/country born and bred/hunting and shooting crowd who are doing nothing. 

 I met one local farm owner today who was telling me about her friend the large poultry farmer who was keeping them in, but she wasn't going to do anything because 'avian flu is all wild birds anyway'. When I said that's why she should be keeping her chickens away from wild birds, she said 'well they go in at night'. Basically she can't be bothered, and unless someone makes her she's not going to do it.


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## lizziebell (10 January 2017)

Apologies if I've missed reading it somewhere, but does anyone know the incubation period? Would these backyard birds have caught it prior to the restrictions, or is this an example of someone not following protocol?


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## Cecile (10 January 2017)

People around me are not doing anything, just carrying on as normal, poultry out during the day and in at night, when my husband mentioned it to my neighbour she just replied, not heard anything about it! He suggested she look on the Defra website but he says that went down like a lead balloon
In Countrywide store tonight someone was advertising 2 hens, all food and accessories + 4'x4' hen house etc for £25 their advert seemed a bit desperate


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## MotherOfChickens (10 January 2017)

lizziebell said:



			Apologies if I've missed reading it somewhere, but does anyone know the incubation period? Would these backyard birds have caught it prior to the restrictions, or is this an example of someone not following protocol?
		
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arund 5 days on average but it can be longer-wouldnt think it would be a month though.


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## Honey08 (10 January 2017)

My neighbour (from about half a mile away as the crow flies) called today about something else and we got onto the subject of hens because I'd posted on Facebook last week when it was extended.  She said she'd taken advice from her daughter, who did one year of vets school then dropped out over six years ago, and decided it was pointless putting them in.  She'd also spoken to our vet, who said he didn't think it would stop anything, but he'd put his in because he was a vet and needed to set an example.  I said it wasn't a case of making a choice and it really annoyed me that most people were trying really hard and a few weren't doing anything.  It only really went in when I said there was a possible £5k fine, she said she'd go and do some research.  She probably thinks I'm going to report her now!


And I agree they're just lazy folk that can't be bothered going to the effort of protecting them.


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## bonny (10 January 2017)

I have been talking to someone who knows a great deal about the poultry industry worldwide and he says there is no answer to the current situation and that keeping birds inside for a few weeks/months makes no difference at all. He says we need to stop having free range commercial flocks altogether and that it will never be possible to contain disease the way that the uk is heading with more and more demand for free range eggs and chickens. He also says the welfare of birds being kept inside is higher but for PR purposes the public think the opposite. He says sooner or later the industry is going to have to go public with this opinion.


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## Honey08 (10 January 2017)

Well comparing my ex batts to the commercial free range flocks I see around my friend's house, I think he's wrong!  The ex batts are in a dreadful state.  I see no signs of welfare whatsoever.  Yes they get injections etc, but they're far from healthy birds.


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## Honey08 (10 January 2017)

Sorry, posted twice, didn't think it had posted.


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## cobgoblin (10 January 2017)

I want to know what's going to happen at the end of February. What is the criterion for lifting the ban?
After 90 days eggs and poultry will not be able to be sold as free range ( not that they actually are at the moment....I find this misrepresentation) but the migratory birds will be coming back....so lifting the ban would be rather negligent.


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## Clodagh (11 January 2017)

bonny said:



			I have been talking to someone who knows a great deal about the poultry industry worldwide and he says there is no answer to the current situation and that keeping birds inside for a few weeks/months makes no difference at all. He says we need to stop having free range commercial flocks altogether and that it will never be possible to contain disease the way that the uk is heading with more and more demand for free range eggs and chickens. He also says the welfare of birds being kept inside is higher but for PR purposes the public think the opposite. He says sooner or later the industry is going to have to go public with this opinion.
		
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He is talking *******s! (About the welfare).


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## popsdosh (11 January 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I am lucky, noone near me keeps birds but if they did, and had made no effort I would be fuming. Grapevine has it that the ones in Settle were not contained.
		
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Excuse me if its already been picked up on but DEFRA confirmed yesterday that the backyard flock in Carmarthenshire were not housed and most were dead when they got there .


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## popsdosh (11 January 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			I want to know what's going to happen at the end of February. What is the criterion for lifting the ban?
After 90 days eggs and poultry will not be able to be sold as free range ( not that they actually are at the moment....I find this misrepresentation) but the migratory birds will be coming back....so lifting the ban would be rather negligent.
		
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What do you do create total meltdown in the poultry industry by declaring flocks not free range. That in itself may push some producers to flout the law! As far as im aware all the time theres a mandatory order in place they retain their status.
I do find it somewhat odd we have not yet had a major outbreak in game birds as possibly out of all birds they may be most vulnerable .
Just watch out after the weekend as the drop in temperatures will cause another wave of Duck from the continent.


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## Clodagh (11 January 2017)

popsdosh - I do am amazed that pheasants have not succumbed. Perhaps they are very healthy!? They must be stressed this time of year though.
We have a pond across the road where we put down ducks for a duck drive, we also get endless wild ducks flighting in, and phasants that live around the pond and eat the wheat. All bright and well so far, and please God may that continue.

I heard both the Settle and Carmarthen flocks were a mix of ducks and chickens, and not housed. Were they sharing water with wild ducks? Does anyone actually know much about the specific situations?


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## DiNozzo (11 January 2017)

Ugh. My horse lives on a commercial chicken farm and this is making life all rather difficult!


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## MotherOfChickens (11 January 2017)

maybe the sick gamebirds are the ones wandering into the roads..

I do think there are definite welfare issues in backyard 'free range' birds-many actually-that the commercial guys I know are always moaning they'd not get away with-and they have a point. I do think backyarders need to rethink how they keep their chickens if they cannot keep them well confined as this will keep happening. It is perfectly possible to do it well-its just harder work and more expensive. Even ducks can be kept well in pens-geese are a different matter.


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## MotherOfChickens (11 January 2017)

people might like to share this

http://www.chickenvet.co.uk/Uploads/PDF/avian-influenza-jan-2017.pdf


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## bonny (11 January 2017)

Clodagh said:



			He is talking *******s! (About the welfare).
		
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In every way that these things can be tested, chickens kept indoors do better and the death rate is significantly lower. I was surprised but I suppose it's easier to think that having access to outside makes for happier chickens, without us really knowing the truth. I'm not talking about caged birds btw.


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## Clodagh (11 January 2017)

I am sure that competition horses with no turn out show fewer signs of stress than a wild herd, but life is about more than no stress.
Chickens graze, dust bath and interact, all things they cannot do when confined. Like not allowing a horse to roll.


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## Alec Swan (11 January 2017)

I haven't yet got my head around the shutting up of poultry,  or how it will in any way prevent or even slow down the spread of Avian Bird Flu.

When the disease is prevalent in and spread by and through the wild bird population,  a population over which we have no control,  just how enclosing poultry will make any difference,  at all,  is beyond me.  If it was a problem within domestic poultry,  then preventing it (or attempting to) from spreading to wild birds would make sense,  but as the disease is amongst our wild bird population,  the orders handed down are a pointless knee-jerk reaction and are in place in an effort to convince us that DEFRA are on the ball,  which we all know,  they aren't!

As for the cry to stop shooting,  what earthly difference does anyone think that such a decree will make to the spread of the disease? 

Alec.


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## popsdosh (12 January 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			I haven't yet got my head around the shutting up of poultry,  or how it will in any way prevent or even slow down the spread of Avian Bird Flu.

When the disease is prevalent in and spread by and through the wild bird population,  a population over which we have no control,  just how enclosing poultry will make any difference,  at all,  is beyond me.  If it was a problem within domestic poultry,  then preventing it (or attempting to) from spreading to wild birds would make sense,  but as the disease is amongst our wild bird population,  the orders handed down are a pointless knee-jerk reaction and are in place in an effort to convince us that DEFRA are on the ball,  which we all know,  they aren't!

As for the cry to stop shooting,  what earthly difference does anyone think that such a decree will make to the spread of the disease? 

Alec.
		
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As I have said on another thread  Defra were put under pressure by the larger free range egg producers as they wanted to protect their flocks by housing as to those producers the risk were to great not to house. The only way these producers can maintain their status when housing birds is if there is a defra housing order in place. 

Quite honestly Alec I think the value of housing is born out by the last two flocks to succumb were both not housed. I agree however it is futile because once it is in the indigenous wild bird population the rabbit is out of the hat. Im not sure if its just coincidence but we seem to have a lot less duck on the drains over the last couple of weeks.


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## MotherOfChickens (12 January 2017)

Housing birds will only have a marginal effect on controlling the spread of it. But it should also help the disease to disappear faster-less small pockets of outbreaks = less transference of it between wild birds and poultry, basic numbers and I don't understand why some can't work that out. It (has been shown now) help individuals keep their birds safer and one presumes most of them would want that.


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## cobgoblin (12 January 2017)

Free range status can only be kept for 12weeks even if mandatory.....


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## Cecile (12 January 2017)

Having been through the horrors of F&M I am a stickler for biosecurity, all my animals are very important to me and if keeping poultry housed is even remotely what it takes to keep poultry safe and not risking other people's poultry so be it.  It has also raised the need for biosecurity again so people who haven't a clue about it can learn and maybe some of the things which should be done in a normal day is alien to people but as far as I know no-one has died from washing their footwear, keeping rodents under control and basic commonsense biosecurity measures

Regarding Deathra anyone with livestock knows they are not on the ball but I will always do what I feel is right to try to protect my animals and wouldn't need them to tell me what to do, it would come instinctively 

I have not heard about the cry to stop shooting but according to our local newspaper today in Country Matters quote *It is thought that Avian Flu is widespread in the wild bird population in this country* Not sure how they worked that out either unless they know more they we are being told


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## teacups (12 January 2017)

Alec, it is common sense that if you try to stop contact between wild birds and domestic birds, then the domestic birds are less likely to catch any bird flu carried by the wild birds.
Just as humans know that if they avoid contact with anyone who's got the lurgy they are less likely to catch it!

Bird flu (not this particular strain, but it adapts quickly just as human flu does) has jumped species from birds to humans in the past. This particular strain is highly contagious and has a high death rate, so if this one jumps over to infect humans we'd be looking at a major flu pandemic. I suspect they don't really want to cause any panic, but afaik it's one reason for trying to stop the flu getting to domestic flocks (as well as protecting the poultry industry).

Anyway, I'm happy to do my bit. It's a pain but perfectly manageable.


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## teacups (12 January 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Free range status can only be kept for 12weeks even if mandatory.....
		
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I'm sure I read on the DEFRA statement that free range status is maintained if birds are contained by reason of the DEFRA order.


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## cobgoblin (12 January 2017)

teacups said:



			I'm sure I read on the DEFRA statement that free range status is maintained if birds are contained by reason of the DEFRA order.
		
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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/avian-flu-prevention-zone-extended

Scroll down.
I think beyond 12 weeks there may be a problem with advertising standards.


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## MotherOfChickens (12 January 2017)

cobgoblin said:



https://www.gov.uk/government/news/avian-flu-prevention-zone-extended

Scroll down.
I think beyond 12 weeks there may be a problem with advertising standards.
		
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ok, so? you seem very focused on this point and I wonder why? would you rather they free ranged at any cost? who cares if the eggs are free range or not in view of a major bird flu pandemic?


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## cobgoblin (12 January 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			ok, so? you seem very focused on this point and I wonder why? would you rather they free ranged at any cost? who cares if the eggs are free range or not in view of a major bird flu pandemic?
		
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You are being ridiculous!

It goes back to my previous post about what's going to happen at the end of February......and also replying to Teacups post.

I think the general public may baulk at paying a premium for free range products when they clearly are not.


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## popsdosh (12 January 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			You are being ridiculous!

It goes back to my previous post about what's going to happen at the end of February......and also replying to Teacups post.

I think the general public may baulk at paying a premium for free range products when they clearly are not.
		
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I think most of the general public will have issue with the price of eggs if we start losing high numbers of hens due to not housing them.
Im sure most of the public will understand why! rather than seeing skips full of dead birds being chucked in the incinerators. There is every chance the 12 weeks will be extended it only takes a variation from Brussels and they already have more of a problem over there.
I dont think anybody in their right mind will object to an extension under unprecedented circumstances.


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## cobgoblin (12 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Im sure most of the public will understand why! rather than seeing skips full of dead birds being chucked in the incinerators. There is every chance the 12 weeks will be extended it only takes a variation from Brussels and they already have more of a problem over there.
I dont think anybody in their right mind will object to an extension under unprecedented circumstances.
		
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I don't think anyone will object to an extension....but will they pay extra for anything marked free range?


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## popsdosh (12 January 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			I don't think anyone will object to an extension....but will they pay extra for anything marked free range?
		
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They will have to think themselves lucky they have any. Have you even thought that the cost of production actually goes up on Free range units if the are housed 24/7 as more labour is needed.


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## MotherOfChickens (12 January 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			You are being ridiculous!
		
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how am I the one being ridiculous? I asked for your POV, why be so rude?


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## MotherOfChickens (12 January 2017)

dupe-broadband at a standstill.


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## cobgoblin (12 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			They will have to think themselves lucky they have any. Have you even thought that the cost of production actually goes up on Free range units if the are housed 24/7 as more labour is needed.
		
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Yes I do realise that! That is why free range eggs have always commanded a premium price....but they are now all barn eggs, that is simply a fact that no dictat from Defra can alter. So far, and until the end of February, these eggs and poultry have been able to be marketed as still being free range.....I want to know if that status is going to be magically maintained after the 12 week limit or if they will have to be marked as barn eggs and barn reared?


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## cobgoblin (12 January 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			how am I the one being ridiculous? I asked for your POV, why be so rude?
		
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You were asking ridiculous questions in an accusatory stance.


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## MotherOfChickens (12 January 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			You were asking ridiculous questions in an accusatory stance.
		
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if you say so


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## Cecile (13 January 2017)

Cecile said:



			People around me are not doing anything, just carrying on as normal, poultry out during the day and in at night

I take this back, today a group of workmen arrived and there is masses of blue tarpaulin going up to cover the entire chickens and ducks area in a neighbouring property
		
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## popsdosh (16 January 2017)

kaufen said:



			Free range status can only be kept for 12weeks even if mandatory.
		
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It can be extended by EU and is likely as they have it worse.


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## MotherOfChickens (16 January 2017)

another confirmed case in Lincolnshire

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/avian-flu-confirmed-at-a-farm-in-east-lindsay-lincolnshire

and Newcastle disease confirmed in Paisley at the weekend.


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## Alec Swan (16 January 2017)

The problem will be, or already is,  that for those who are free range,  and who are running a commercial enterprise,  then production will be falling through the floor and feed costs will be escalating,  I'd have thought.

My neighbour advises me that he has adequate insurance to protect him,  though I wonder if that insurance is against the loss of his flock through infection,  or the loss of sales.

Alec.


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## jrp204 (17 January 2017)

It is possible that they will eat slightly less when fully housed as they don't need energy to keep warm or to free range? They actuallly eat very little outside and all their food and water will be indoors.
The chance to take out extra insurance was very short lived as once the risk became over a certain level the insurers closed the books. For a commercial unit a cull would be crippling, unlike most notifieable diseases there is no compensation paid to the farmer. The disposal and clean up costs will be massive and it will probably be hard to restock since most commercial hatcheries will only hatch what they have orders for.


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## popsdosh (17 January 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			The problem will be, or already is,  that for those who are free range,  and who are running a commercial enterprise,  then production will be falling through the floor and feed costs will be escalating,  I'd have thought.

My neighbour advises me that he has adequate insurance to protect him,  though I wonder if that insurance is against the loss of his flock through infection,  or the loss of sales.

Alec.
		
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To be fair most of the free range guys around here say production is staying up and feed costs have dropped all the reasons eggs were always cheaper to produce inside. Most of the housing is designed to cover this eventuality so they are fine from a welfare point. I know one that looked at depopulating early but cannot get guaranteed replacement birds as they are produced to order. with at least 6 months lead time.


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## Alec Swan (17 January 2017)

Oh,  that's interesting and thanks jrp204 and popsdosh.  Perhaps it's that as the birds are now kept in they're now warm and so the feed requirements are conversely,  less than might have been imagined.

One of my next door neighbour's sites with 24k birds is due to be emptied very soon,  and presumably as the replacements were ordered before the scare,  he'll be committed to them.  He previously had his cull birds taken away for nothing with no exchange of payment.  Now I suspect that he will need to pay something for their disposal,  even though the go to our fish and chip shops,  from what I can make of it!

Would birds which are known to be infected be permitted in to our food chain,  does anyone know?  

Alec.


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## popsdosh (17 January 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Oh,  that's interesting and thanks jrp204 and popsdosh.  Perhaps it's that as the birds are now kept in they're now warm and so the feed requirements are conversely,  less than might have been imagined.

One of my next door neighbour's sites with 24k birds is due to be emptied very soon,  and presumably as the replacements were ordered before the scare,  he'll be committed to them.  He previously had his cull birds taken away for nothing with no exchange of payment.  Now I suspect that he will need to pay something for their disposal,  even though the go to our fish and chip shops,  from what I can make of it!

Would birds which are known to be infected be permitted in to our food chain,  does anyone know?  

Alec.
		
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Infected birds are culled and destroyed ,dont really see it impacting your neighbour as the trade is as normal the only restrictions are on gatherings of birds ie shows and auctions etc. Sale to killing is not a problem as in theory are other sales.


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## jrp204 (17 January 2017)

Agree with Pops, the outgoing birds will have a value, I think when we cleared out our shed we got 25p/bird, they were taken to Birmingham for pies etc.
If a farm had an outbreak the birds would have to be incinerated.


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## Clodagh (17 January 2017)

New case in Lincs today I hear. ******!


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## Cecile (25 January 2017)

Hope this has not already been posted, Lancashire area

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/avian-flu-confirmed-at-a-farm-in-preston-lancashire


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## Alec Swan (25 January 2017)

Cecile said:



			&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/avian-flu-confirmed-at-a-farm-in-preston-lancashire

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Whether the figure of 10k birds is journalistic licence,  we won't know because that would probably equate to 250k poults to rear,  which is an awful lot,  but that said,  unless the owner has adequate insurance,  it's likely that their entire breeding stock for this year is wiped out in one go and without the said insurance,  could well spell bankruptcy.  It would also be highly unlikely,  I'd have thought,  for that many game birds as laying stock to be kept housed as commercial poultry would be.

With the sporadic reports arriving with no apparent link to each other,  we have to wonder if this particular virus is far more widespread than we imagine and if it doesn't become a matter which we're going to have to live with,  for some while yet.  I wonder if in wild birds the infected cases are also only a small percentage of the given population and with infection spreading amongst those birds which are contained,  so the concentration of birds is where the problem lays.  If I'm right,  then the situation has the capacity to worsen,  and considerably so.  Worrying times for anyone who has large flocks,  from the viewpoint of the attendant culling programmes.

Alec.


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## popsdosh (25 January 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Whether the figure of 10k birds is journalistic licence,  we won't know because that would probably equate to 250k poults to rear,  which is an awful lot,  but that said,  unless the owner has adequate insurance,  it's likely that their entire breeding stock for this year is wiped out in one go and without the said insurance,  could well spell bankruptcy.  It would also be highly unlikely,  I'd have thought,  for that many game birds as laying stock to be kept housed as commercial poultry would be.

With the sporadic reports arriving with no apparent link to each other,  we have to wonder if this particular virus is far more widespread than we imagine and if it doesn't become a matter which we're going to have to live with,  for some while yet.  I wonder if in wild birds the infected cases are also only a small percentage of the given population and with infection spreading amongst those birds which are contained,  so the concentration of birds is where the problem lays.  If I'm right,  then the situation has the capacity to worsen,  and considerably so.  Worrying times for anyone who has large flocks,  from the viewpoint of the attendant culling programmes.

Alec.
		
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Its is an accurate figure ! I believe its Hy Fly game( on good authority) and they set .25m pheasant eggs a week in season the biggest game farm in UK .It may cause major issues for shoots next season!


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## Alec Swan (25 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Its is an accurate figure ! I believe its Hy Fly game( on good authority) and they set .25m pheasant eggs a week in season the biggest game farm in UK .It may cause major issues for shoots next season!
		
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Is your figure of .25m a quarter-million or 25 million?  I'd imagine the former because with each hen producing app 25 eggs over a 12 week period and with a hatching rate of app 85-90% the protracted figures would be unachievable on a weekly basis.  But even then,  that still speaks of about 3 million birds which is an awful lot!  I would imagine that it is High-Fly Hatcheries as you say and as much as anything to reduce the risk of any disease spread,  so they will have various sites and 10k hens on one site sounds about right.  Assuming that the disease doesn't spread,  they should be able to absorb those losses.

When I was a 'keeper we used to pick up our first eggs from the laying pens fairly regularly on or about the 28th. March.  The time for the busy time for Game Farmers is rapidly approaching and if there are any further and more serious outbreaks,  it has us wondering just what they'll do with the birds which they have and as poults will go to their new homes every 6 weeks or so,  the log-jam doesn't bear thinking about.  I'm wondering if DEFRA have a contingency plan should the worst happen.

Alec.


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## Cecile (28 January 2017)

BBC link

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-38781751


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## Cecile (28 January 2017)

Defra, Bird flu confirmed 24/1/17 - 26/1/17 - 27/1/17 (2 in Lancashire + 1 in Linconshire)

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/avian-influenza-bird-flu-in-winter-2016-to-2017


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## popsdosh (29 January 2017)

Another flock at Hy fly culled out this weekend with confirmed AI


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## Cecile (29 January 2017)

BBC interview, the knock on effect of some businesses is worrying

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-38733709


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## Evie91 (29 January 2017)

Place near me is selling off 4,500 hens, those that are not 'rescued' will go for dog food. 
Was thinking of getting three or four, but haven't as yet due to Flu/Defra. What is the current advice for this kind of situation, can I get some of the hens or not? They have been barn kept...


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## cobgoblin (30 January 2017)

Evie91 said:



			Place near me is selling off 4,500 hens, those that are not 'rescued' will go for dog food. 
Was thinking of getting three or four, but haven't as yet due to Flu/Defra. What is the current advice for this kind of situation, can I get some of the hens or not? They have been barn kept...
		
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I think you can still buy chickens as long as they don't come into contact with wild birds....either during transit, or where you keep them at home.


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## PorkChop (30 January 2017)

Evie91 said:



			Place near me is selling off 4,500 hens, those that are not 'rescued' will go for dog food. 
Was thinking of getting three or four, but haven't as yet due to Flu/Defra. What is the current advice for this kind of situation, can I get some of the hens or not? They have been barn kept...
		
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You are still allowed to buy and sell, but personally I wouldn't until the restrictions are lifted.


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## Evie91 (30 January 2017)

Tough one isn't it, have the opportunity to save a few from being made into dog food but don't want to introduce disease to mine!


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