# Laminitis with no improvement



## PictusSweetDreams (13 March 2020)

My mare came down with laminitis just before the new year. My vet suggested it was a torn DDFT however she worsened gradually and the vet finally agreed to x ray her 2 weeks later. They found she had slight rotation in both fronts but enough toe to take off to correct this, the farrier was contacted with the x rays and the heartbar shoes went on. She seemed a lot worse after they were fitted so they were changed to aluminium heartbars and she was re x rays before these went on. Within 2 weeks she had rotated further and they vet and farrier diagnosed her with laminitis in her back feet. They have not yet managed to x ray her backs due to the machine being broke but she has heartbars fitted at the back just for some support. Farrier has suggested keeping her bed quite wet to help her feet expand and aid healing, which I’ve done. She is on 30 paracetamol a day, 500ml (I think - 500 on the syringe) metacam and now 1.5 sedalin a day to keep her heart rate down as it was double what it should be. She can barely move, she’s hardly eating and just really fed up.
Has anyone any experience with anything like this? The vets advised me to walk her if she will walk (which she won’t) but it’s bothering me how much she’s struggling with the amount of pain relief she’s on and with how long it’s been. She can’t even move over in the stable, her back legs are actually at a point where they look like they’re about to buckle any moment. I just feel like there’s something we’re missing, she doesn’t seem to be improving whatsoever, or is this just how lami goes? I do have her x ray photos and videos of her moving (or lack of) too.
Appreciate any comments.


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## WandaMare (13 March 2020)

What is she currently getting foodwise? I had a laminitic who was really difficult to stabilise and even slight tweaks to his diet made a huge difference.


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## Pinkvboots (13 March 2020)

Have you had the horse tested for cushings and ems?

I am also surprised they put shoes on such an uncomfortable horse for a start, the feet should have been fitted with frog supports and my horse rapidly went downhill with heart bar shoes when she had laminitis I would never ever have them on again, this is going to sound harsh but if she is as bad as you say I would seriously consider calling it a day she is on a lot of pain relief and still very sore, sometimes you can't get the laminitis under control no matter what, I am sorry I know exactly how you feel I have had 2 horses with laminitis it's awful to see them like it.

I think hearing what your vets have advised I would be getting a second opinion I certainly don't think walking her around is a good idea.


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## vmac66 (13 March 2020)

My mare had lami in her front feet last May. Farrier immediately put frog supports on which made a, huge difference. Followed all the laminitis stuff ie deep bed box rest etc. She was sound within 10 days with very little or no rotation. I'm surprised your farrier put shoes on her, mine took mares shoes off. 
Sorry to say but I agree with Pinkyboots about calling it a day. Sometimes they just don't get over it no matter what you do. It's an awful disease.


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 March 2020)

Hi 
Yes tested for EMS and cushings and both fine. The vets are actually quite baffled by her as if literally came on overnight after being ridden. My farrier was reluctant to put heartbars on (I swapped when the first didn’t even question it) which is why he’s put the aluminium ones on. Apparently at this point frog supports won’t be beneficial (I’m no expert I just follow the advice). Vet has only suggested walking her when she becomes more comfortable to enable blood flow to the feet to help her heal. She’s been this way for nearly 3 months with absolutely no sign of improvement however the vet is still hopeful she can come right from it. She’s fed on hay and a tiny handful of unmollassed chaff to give her the paracetamol. I just have this awful feeling she won’t come right but at what point do I decide this? I’ve owned her for 10 years now she’s part of the family but I genuinely don’t know what else there is left to do. I guess I’m not really looking for answers really, I don’t really know what I’m expecting from posting


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## Equi (13 March 2020)

Are you soaking the hay?


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (13 March 2020)

If the "machine is broken" which presumably is the reason she hasn't had another x-ray on her hinds then I really would have expected your vet to have asked another colleague in another practice OR offered you the choice to take your horse to an equine hospital somewhere to have these very necessary x-rays done.

That said......... you don't say how old your mare is?? Have you had any bloods taken??

I have a friend who tried Simple Systems feed for her mare, backed up with vet and farrier support (she had to change both vet AND farriers to get the right team), and her mare pulled through against all the odds, without shoes. She had to be kept on what was literally a "pocket handkerchief sized" patch of grass - her owner leccy-fenced her off into a space which was about the size of about two loose-boxes, and that was all! It wasn't easy, but she as an equine professional herself managed to pull her mare through.

But, but, not everyone has the benefit of professional expertise or access to the right professionals, and what my gut reaction was, reading your post OP, was that your mare is in considerable pain and distress and has been so over a considerable time.

May I just suggest, as gently as possible, that you may need to be prepared to let her go........... she's in pain, and by the sounds of it can hardly move, and if she were my mare I know what my decision would be......

So sorry I can't be more positive; laminitis is a horrible cruel condition and I've lost a horse to it, so know what you will be going through.


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 March 2020)

No she won’t eat soaked hay unfortunately and having had ulcers before I can’t risk her not eating. Despite that though she isn’t really eating now anyway


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 March 2020)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			If the "machine is broken" which presumably is the reason she hasn't had another x-ray on her hinds then I really would have expected your vet to have asked another colleague in another practice OR offered you the choice to take your horse to an equine hospital somewhere to have these very necessary x-rays done.

That said......... you don't say how old your mare is?? Have you had any bloods taken??

I have a friend who tried Simple Systems feed for her mare, backed up with vet and farrier support (she had to change both vet AND farriers to get the right team), and her mare pulled through against all the odds, without shoes. She had to be kept on what was literally a "pocket handkerchief sized" patch of grass - her owner leccy-fenced her off into a space which was about the size of about two loose-boxes, and that was all! It wasn't easy, but she as an equine professional herself managed to pull her mare through.

But, but, not everyone has the benefit of professional expertise or access to the right professionals, and what my gut reaction was, reading your post OP, was that your mare is in considerable pain and distress and has been so over a considerable time.

May I just suggest, as gently as possible, that you may need to be prepared to let her go........... she's in pain, and by the sounds of it can hardly move, and if she were my mare I know what my decision would be......

So sorry I can't be more positive; laminitis is a horrible cruel condition and I've lost a horse to it, so know what you will be going through.
		
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yes they are back out early next week to x ray all 4 as the time has come to re x ray her fronts. She can’t travel anywhere to get to horsey hospital she’s that bad, I feel like the time is coming for me to make a decision but I just can’t face it. She’s only 11 so quite young


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## Equi (13 March 2020)

How long are you soaking the hay for and are you letting it dry out first ?
Sorry if these seem silly qu but good Unsoaked hay could be the reason she’s not improving.


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 March 2020)

equi said:



			How long are you soaking the hay for and are you letting it dry out first ?
Sorry if these seem silly qu but good I soaked hay could be the reason she’s not improving.
		
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She won’t eat it soaked so it’s dry


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## Equi (13 March 2020)

I ask because many won’t eat it if it’s soaked too long as it ferments hence asking how long you soaked for.


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## Pinkvboots (13 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			No she won’t eat soaked hay unfortunately and having had ulcers before I can’t risk her not eating. Despite that though she isn’t really eating now anyway
		
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Mine won't eat hay that is soaked for hours even 10 minutes will get some of the sugar out worth a try, I would seriously consider getting a different vet one that is familiar with laminitis, sedalin can help with blood flow to the feet as it increases circulation.


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 March 2020)

Pinkvboots said:



			Mine won't eat hay that is soaked for hours even 10 minutes will get some of the sugar out worth a try, I would seriously consider getting a different vet one that is familiar with laminitis, sedalin can help with blood flow to the feet as it increases circulation.
		
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yeah the vet prescribed the sedalin yesterday more to help lower her heart rate as it was through the roof. I just don’t know what more to do, the vet has just said to give her time but I can’t help but think this is because it’s an insurance claim? I’d like to think not


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## SpringArising (13 March 2020)

If she's been like this for three months with no improvement I really think you should have her PTS asap. Laminitis is so painful for them and it sounds like she's really, really suffering.


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## WandaMare (13 March 2020)

The only way I could stabilise my pony's laminitis was to soak the hay for 12 hours, if I soaked for 1 hour, the laminitis kept going. He didn't like soaked hay at all but when it was all he could have, he nibbled enough of it to keep him going. It sounds as though your mares laminitis is rumbling on because there is still too much sugar in the hay. Mine also had metformin which helped him too. Once the diet is right the laminitis suddenly stops and they can become comfortable quite quickly. This is probably why your vet is persevering because he's seen it happen before. I had lots of times where I felt it was best to call it a day with mine, its horrible to see them like that but you just have to get the sugar completely out of the diet so that the inflammation in the laminae reduces and with it the pressure which is causing all the pain.


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## Pinkvboots (13 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			yeah the vet prescribed the sedalin yesterday more to help lower her heart rate as it was through the roof. I just don’t know what more to do, the vet has just said to give her time but I can’t help but think this is because it’s an insurance claim? I’d like to think not
		
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Her heart rate is through the roof because of the pain I think over 3 months is a very long time with no improvement, I am sorry but I think I would let her go, I am shocked by what your vet has said about keeping her going


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## meleeka (13 March 2020)

You’ve reached the point where you are considering pts so I think I’d have to try everything then make a decision.  Soak hay for the minimum required to reduce sugar or replace some of that with the lowest calorie chaff you can find.  Test again for Cushings, not the standard test but a TRH test which is more accurate.  It’s not unusual to get false negatives with the normal one.  I’d also be getting a second opinion, even if you only end up with xrays to tell you what’s going on.  How thick is her bed?  It needs to be shavings not straw and 12 inches thick for total support, all the way to the door.  Has she had shoes on for 12 weeks? That’s an awfully long time to go without a trim or xrays. 

It does sound very much like there’s a metabolic cause for it and I hope you find it before it’s too late x


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## be positive (13 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			yeah the vet prescribed the sedalin yesterday more to help lower her heart rate as it was through the roof. I just don’t know what more to do, the vet has just said to give her time but I can’t help but think this is because it’s an insurance claim? I’d like to think not
		
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I would hope not but my farrier refused to continue to shoe one once because he felt it should be pts, the vet continued to treat it until the 12 months were up and it was then pts having made no progress the whole time, farrier never works with that vet now.

When one of mine had laminitis, due mainly to an abscess in the other foot, I was struggling to get the weight off him so the vet prescribed metformin for a month which seemed to kick start his metabolism, the weight came off and he generally became more comfortable, when they are as bad as yours even if tests say otherwise I would want to try metformin and or prascend just in case they work, it is a long while with no improvement, mine was at least moving about fairly easily, I think your vet either needs to come up with something new, refer for a second opinion or pts.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (13 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			yes they are back out early next week to x ray all 4 as the time has come to re x ray her fronts. She can’t travel anywhere to get to horsey hospital she’s that bad, I feel like the time is coming for me to make a decision but I just can’t face it. She’s only 11 so quite young
		
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Soohh sorry OP; the only thing I would suggest you do is get a second opinion before you make any "decision".

Am not trying to give you false hope here, but at least then if you do have to make a difficult choice you've at least got the knowledge that you did your very very best.

Have been where you're at, its heartbreaking, I know.........


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## tallyho! (13 March 2020)

Oh poor girl. Poor you! You must be beside yourself have a big hug from me. That must be so painful for a horse not to want to eat... 3 months is far too long. Second opinion or PTS. Frankly I feel a bit shocked at vet and farrier........ times have moved on and lami should be shod with imprints with frog supports... Or booted or barefoot. Hate it when vets don't move with the times. Mag Ox not suggested? This can help massively and even if the horse will not eat soaked hay you must get the weight off somehow.


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 March 2020)

meleeka said:



			You’ve reached the point where you are considering pts so I think I’d have to try everything then make a decision.  Soak hay for the minimum required to reduce sugar or replace some of that with the lowest calorie chaff you can find.  Test again for Cushings, not the standard test but a TRH test which is more accurate.  It’s not unusual to get false negatives with the normal one.  I’d also be getting a second opinion, even if you only end up with xrays to tell you what’s going on.  How thick is her bed?  It needs to be shavings not straw and 12 inches thick for total support, all the way to the door.  Has she had shoes on for 12 weeks? That’s an awfully long time to go without a trim or xrays.

It does sound very much like there’s a metabolic cause for it and I hope you find it before it’s too late x
		
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she’s on a really deep shavings bed, she’s had 2 sets of heartbars on now and due her third next week. We’ve done the TRH test and it was clear, I’ll try soaking her hay again.

tonight she was quite a lot worse, she isn’t overweight in fact she’s lost quite a lot since being poorly. She’s been stood in the same spot all day and not even touched her net that’s been in since 5.30am. The farrier asked me to lift her feet to make sure there wasn’t too much bed packing in and she almost fell down. I feel like this is her giving up now, I have never ever seen her like this before and for the amount of pain relief she is on I’m really quite shocked and how badly she’s coping


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 March 2020)

Pinkvboots said:



			Her heart rate is through the roof because of the pain I think over 3 months is a very long time with no improvement, I am sorry but I think I would let her go, I am shocked by what your vet has said about keeping her going

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it is a long time especially with the pain relief she is on. If anything she is getting worse


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## TheMule (13 March 2020)

I'm sorry but I would have a vet visit tonight. She sounds in total agony and, at the very least, she needs significantly more pain relief


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## vmac66 (13 March 2020)

It's so hard to deal with laminitis. I fed my mare 1kg nets of soaked hay every few hours and a, bigger net at night. Total Hay and feed was 1.5 percent of her body weight. It was very hard seeing her permanently hungry, she would go a few hours, with nothing to eat. I know your horse has had ulcers but they are treatable, the laminitis should be the priority and getting the weight of. I only kept up the feeding regime for 2 weeks and enlisted people to help putting nets in. The weight did come off.  She has lost a, total of 100kg in the last ten months and is going into spring skinny.


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## vmac66 (13 March 2020)

Sorry didn't see your post about not being overweight.


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 March 2020)

TheMule said:



			I'm sorry but I would have a vet visit tonight. She sounds in total agony and, at the very least, she needs significantly more pain relief
		
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ive has a chat with the vet just now and he said because they only upped her meds Wednesday they’d like to give her the weekend to let them fully get in her system. I’ve told them she’s not going to miraculously be pain free in 2 days though realistically


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## Equi (13 March 2020)

Being off her food entirely since this morning would be really bothersome for me. I’m sorry this is so awful for you I can’t even imagine the heartbreak but You really may need to think about getting the vet out tonight to see her and give advice.


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## Equi (13 March 2020)

We posted at the same time. I dunno. You seem to know yourself this could be wishful thinking re the meds kicking in.


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## Pinkvboots (13 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			she’s on a really deep shavings bed, she’s had 2 sets of heartbars on now and due her third next week. We’ve done the TRH test and it was clear, I’ll try soaking her hay again.

tonight she was quite a lot worse, she isn’t overweight in fact she’s lost quite a lot since being poorly. She’s been stood in the same spot all day and not even touched her net that’s been in since 5.30am. The farrier asked me to lift her feet to make sure there wasn’t too much bed packing in and she almost fell down. I feel like this is her giving up now, I have never ever seen her like this before and for the amount of pain relief she is on I’m really quite shocked and how badly she’s coping
		
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I can't believe they are hammering shoes on this horse it must be agony for her, shoes only go on when the horse is more or less sound not at the start of a laminitic episode.


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## ester (13 March 2020)

If I wasn't happy with what my vets said I'd be calling someone else to end her suffering TBH. I'd strongly suspect she has something systemic going on underlying this from what you have said.

The only shoes I would have ever had put on would be imprints, preferably by andrew but it seems past that stage now.


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## Pinkvboots (13 March 2020)

How much sedalin has she had today ?


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## WandaMare (13 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			ive has a chat with the vet just now and he said because they only upped her meds Wednesday they’d like to give her the weekend to let them fully get in her system. I’ve told them she’s not going to miraculously be pain free in 2 days though realistically
		
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It might be the meds which have reduced her appetite,  sedalin can do this


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## be positive (13 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			ive has a chat with the vet just now and he said because they only upped her meds Wednesday they’d like to give her the weekend to let them fully get in her system. I’ve told them she’s not going to miraculously be pain free in 2 days though realistically
		
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They have had weeks to get the meds right, there should already be enough in her that a top up makes her better not worse, I would be concerned that the sedalin is shutting her down and that if you do not get the vet this evening tomorrow may be too late, she is at risk of a serious colic which along with the laminitis does not bode well, I think the vet is either on a different planet or is of the life must be preserved at any cost view if he thinks this will improve over the next 24 hours.


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 March 2020)

Pinkvboots said:



			How much sedalin has she had today ?
		
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she’s had 1.5 (?) that’s what I’ve been told to give her a day.



be positive said:



			They have had weeks to get the meds right, there should already be enough in her that a top up makes her better not worse, I would be concerned that the sedalin is shutting her down and that if you do not get the vet this evening tomorrow may be too late, she is at risk of a serious colic which along with the laminitis does not bode well, I think the vet is either on a different planet or is of the life must be preserved at any cost view if he thinks this will improve over the next 24 hours.
		
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it’s funny you say that as I was talking about this earlier. One of the girls on the yard told me to watch her for colic because of the sedalin however with her being on a low dose would it still be the same concerns?


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## be positive (13 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			she’s had 1.5 (?) that’s what I’ve been told to give her a day.



it’s funny you say that as I was talking about this earlier. One of the girls on the yard told me to watch her for colic because of the sedalin however with her being on a low dose would it still be the same concerns?
		
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Yes as it will slow down her guts, which it can especially if she is not eating to keep them moving, I would definitely be concerned about colic, it may have its uses but it is not without risk.


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## Pinkvboots (13 March 2020)

That's not really much my big horse had that twice a day, I just thought it may have knocked her out, I think I would be making a serious decision soon, does no one else on your yard use a vet they trust and you could speak to, I feel though your rapidly running out if time I wouldn't want to leave a horse that has not even moved or eaten all day, as sad as it is it's just not fair it just sounds like it's all a bit too late


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## ester (13 March 2020)

I have asked Leo to come and comment when she is home. 
As I know her vets wanted her to keep going with Frankie and that she wouldn't do the same again. 
https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/laminitis-getting-me-down.769986/#post-13885785


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## Pearlsasinger (13 March 2020)

I am sorry but I would be calling it a day now.  And I wouldn't use that vet again.  I really don't understand why the vet insists on dragging this on.


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## meleeka (13 March 2020)

Pinkvboots said:



			I can't believe they are hammering shoes on this horse it must be agony for her, shoes only go on when the horse is more or less sound not at the start of a laminitic episode.
		
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Mine had glue on shoes but that was before imprints were invented.


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## be positive (13 March 2020)

ester said:



			I have asked Leo to come and comment when she is home.
As I know her vets wanted her to keep going with Frankie and that she wouldn't do the same again.
https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/laminitis-getting-me-down.769986/#post-13885785

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They at least tried different things even if it was a lost cause, this pony pony seems to have had very little done, has shown no improvement and the vet has just continued along a path which hasn't even managed to get xrays done of the hinds, his machine may be broken but I would hope my vets could borrow one in an emergency, I would be knocking on doors myself if I had to.


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## ester (13 March 2020)

True.

and if I my vet couldn't borrow I'd find someone else to come (nearly did previously just due to quality of images between portable machines).


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## Leo Walker (13 March 2020)

Ok, so this probably isnt what you want to hear, but I think you need to. Not all horses recover from laminitis. Once you have sinking then just over 30% make it. Thats 70% that dont. 

My boy came down with it in winter. We could find no underlying cause. He was only 6. I sent him to a rehab yard in a last ditch attempt to save him. In the beginning, he was xrayed every week or so, and only trimmed to xray while the vet was there to administer serious pain relief. I almost called time then and looking back I should have. He was in agony just being trimmed, so putting shoes on would have been unbearable. Hindsight is an amazing if useless thing!

I fought for him for several months as in himself he was quite bright and the vets kept saying they had saved them in worst states than him. I eventually made the decision to PTS when xrays showed that the right pedal bone had sunk further and was resting on his sole. Ironically at that point he certainly didnt look the as bad as he had done previously. the vet was still saying he could be saved and that if the pedal bone came out from his sole he would do x, y and z to try and fix it. That was  a step too far for me. I could not allow a horse in my care to have a bone protruding from its foot, no matter what the vets said.

You NEED xrays and you need them NOW. You need to make sure the underlying cause is found. If no underlying cause is found, or if the sinking and rotation has worsened then have your horse PTS and save them the misery and suffering they are currently experiencing.

I have people around me now to remind me of this if it ever happens again. My stance will now be firm. If there is noticeable sinking and no underlying cause is found then the horse will be PTS. I wont allow myself to get into the situation I was in with Frankie. I loved him dearly and thought if I just tried really hard I could save him, but in the end all that happened is he suffered.


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## Pinkvboots (13 March 2020)

meleeka said:



			Mine had glue on shoes but that was before imprints were invented.
		
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They were used a lot with laminitis my farrier said he used glue on shoes.


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## holeymoley (13 March 2020)

Get the shoes off. The horse needs supports and pads until she’s out the acute phase then you can start to change the trim to align and use shoes if need be.


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## holeymoley (13 March 2020)

What exactly is she being fed? What forage is she on? I’m surprised hthat there’s nothing underlying.


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## deepsoftheavy (13 March 2020)

Im sorry but having fought for 18 months to save one with laminitis (only to PTS in the end) Im remembering the heartbreak and extreme pain. It sounds to me that further sinking or rotation is now happening. If you cant manage the pain there really is only one thing to do  3 months with further deterioration despite treatment is too long.


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 March 2020)

Thank you all so much for your comments I really do appreciate them.

so I called at the yard around 30 minutes ago and she was down, I left her at 4pm and she hasn’t touched her nets and has only pooed once. I’ve called the vet and they’ve advised I go back in about an hour to check her again as when I let she was up and munching. I feel so frustrated as I just don’t know what’s going on with her, I’ve also told them that they need to come back and re x ray her as I fear the worst really. I’ll attached photos of her x rays, the first ones then the most recent and you can see the changes in her foot. I apologise for their poor quality but I’m not very familiar with x rays and such so I don’t really know what I’m looking at but even I can see there’s changes.


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## ester (13 March 2020)

Has the vet actually mentioned sinking with regards to those xrays?

I do get that it's frustrating and that you aren't really being given sufficient info by your professionals to make an informed decision in this horse's best interests so that you can be comfortable with the decision you make. 

I do think it is always important to remember that a horse in pain doesn't know it is going through any sort of rehabiliation, and that it might feel better in 6 months time. There are of course degrees, there are some people who have treated recumbent laminitics for months and think it's ok because they were better in the end, I am not one of those people.


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 March 2020)

ester said:



			Has the vet actually mentioned sinking with regards to those xrays?
		
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the only thing I have been told is she has slight rotation


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## ester (13 March 2020)

sorry my edit took rather longer to write than I anticipated! I'd be interested in other's opinions and obviously there are no markers on those hooves. I keep changing my mind between the 2 dates.
Have they actually measured the degrees of rotation for you too?


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 March 2020)

ester said:



			sorry my edit took rather longer to write than I anticipated! I'd be interested in other's opinions and obviously there are no markers on those hooves. I keep changing my mind between the 2 dates.
Have they actually measured the degrees of rotation for you too?
		
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not as far as I’m aware, if they have them I haven’t been informed. I just feel like I’m getting a half arsed service but with us going through insurance I’m not sure I can switch vets at this stage


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## ester (13 March 2020)

'guessing' the amount of change in a case like yours is pretty unacceptable TBH. 
Of course you can switch vets at any stage, insurance or not, people do it plenty.


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## splashgirl45 (13 March 2020)

i am so sorry that you are going through this, BUT quality of life is paramount and your horse has had no quality of life for 3 months, she is in pain and this is not being controlled by meds,  in your shoes i would have PTS already....sorry to be blunt but you must stand up for your horse and insist the vet does more to relieve her pain and not allow this to go on any longer..


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## be positive (13 March 2020)

I think the ones dated 26th show more rotation although they are not great images without any markers to guide, are they different shoes and how long have they been on?? it is hard to judge but to me they look a bit short at the heel, my pony was in heartbars for 24 hours, the farrier came back and took them off as he was more sore, we kept him barefoot, he was only showing some rotation in one front, the other had a very nasty abscess that took months to resolve, he was trimmed at least once a week to keep his toes back something that would have been impossible in shoes.

Your insurance co will have no issues with you changing vets especially if it allows you to be better informed and have the correct treatment.


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## meleeka (13 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			not as far as I’m aware, if they have them I haven’t been informed. I just feel like I’m getting a half arsed service but with us going through insurance I’m not sure I can switch vets at this stage
		
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Yes you can.  Your current vets should forward the xrays so they won’t have to start all over. 

I’m no expert but I will say that the pony I had was far worse by xrays but wasn’t In as much pain.   There’s something going on here that could do with a fresh pair of eyes to work out.


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 March 2020)

be positive said:



			I think the ones dated 26th show more rotation although they are not great images without any markers to guide, are they different shoes and how long have they been on?? it is hard to judge but to me they look a bit short at the heel, my pony was in heartbars for 24 hours, the farrier came back and took them off as he was more sore, we kept him barefoot, he was only showing some rotation in one front, the other had a very nasty abscess that took months to resolve, he was trimmed at least once a week to keep his toes back something that would have been impossible in shoes.

Your insurance co will have no issues with you changing vets especially if it allows you to be better informed and have the correct treatment.
		
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so the first x rays were just before her heartbars were fitted. The farrier has apparently lifted her heel and shortened her toe as she has very flat/thin soles. I feel really out of my depth with this as I’m trusting the two professionals and feel like the vet isn’t really giving me anything.

initially my vet said it was a tendon injury and to walk her out and even rode her through it. I switched vets but stayed with the same practice only because I wasn’t sure if I could swap vets part way through a claim


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## Petalpoos (13 March 2020)

So sorry for what you are going through but it sounds like your horse is going through far worse. Surely it is time to call it a day? Even if there is a chance that she might ever get through this and ever be sound again, I am not sure it can be worth more than 3 months of pain and a total lack of quality of life. Sorry to be blunt, but sometimes we can get too close and don't really see what is happening. What would you be advising if this was someone else explaining this to you about their horse?


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 March 2020)

Petalpoos said:



			So sorry for what you are going through but it sounds like your horse is going through far worse. Surely it is time to call it a day? Even if there is a chance that she might ever get through this and ever be sound again, I am not sure it can be worth more than 3 months of pain and a total lack of quality of life. Sorry to be blunt, but sometimes we can get too close and don't really see what is happening. What would you be advising if this was someone else explaining this to you about their horse?
		
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no need to apologise for being blunt I completely understand your point of view. I was speaking with a friend today about the recovery side of things, if she does come right from it then what quality of life is she going to actually have? It’s so much harder when it’s your own though


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## be positive (13 March 2020)

So they have been on about 5 weeks? that they are on at all is questionable and if they have any chance of helping they need to be redone every 4 weeks ideally but to me she sounds in too much pain to have 4 shoes done, I have dealt with a few laminitics over the years and all have become comfortable very quickly, apart from the one I mentioned earlier, on the right meds, a decent bed and a good farrier.
I think your vets have let you, and the horse, down from the very start, not uncommon they are not infallible, despite at times thinking they are, I think you need to call in the morning, if there is a senior partner you can speak to do so, get whoever is available to come out and be prepared to call it a day, they should accept your decision if there is nothing they can do to make her far more comfortable it is not fair to keep her going barely able to stand, looking at her long term future, and your commitment as the owner must also be a consideration, mine became a real challenge to keep weight off, keep in a restricted area, he took up so much time, caused a lot of stress, had a few more years but in the end I called it a day when he was teetering on the edge again after yet another day in the wrong field having jumped out to get to more grass, he had fun but I was spending most of my time worrying about what he was up to.


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 March 2020)

be positive said:



			So they have been on about 5 weeks? that they are on at all is questionable and if they have any chance of helping they need to be redone every 4 weeks ideally but to me she sounds in too much pain to have 4 shoes done, I have dealt with a few laminitics over the years and all have become comfortable very quickly, apart from the one I mentioned earlier, on the right meds, a decent bed and a good farrier.
I think your vets have let you, and the horse, down from the very start, not uncommon they are not infallible, despite at times thinking they are, I think you need to call in the morning, if there is a senior partner you can speak to do so, get whoever is available to come out and be prepared to call it a day, they should accept your decision if there is nothing they can do to make her far more comfortable it is not fair to keep her going barely able to stand, looking at her long term future, and your commitment as the owner must also be a consideration, mine became a real challenge to keep weight off, keep in a restricted area, he took up so much time, caused a lot of stress, had a few more years but in the end I called it a day when he was teetering on the edge again after yet another day in the wrong field having jumped out to get to more grass, he had fun but I was spending most of my time worrying about what he was up to.
		
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No so she had her first set on 5th feb and then I had a second farrier look at her who wanted to put the frog supports in but after looking at her x rays suggested aluminium shoes so she had these fitted after the second x rays on 26th. So she’s due another trim/x ray either next week or the week after but personally I would like it done sooner rather than later. The fact the vet dismissed that the x ray machine was broken and he would just do al 4 together really annoyed me and my farrier said it shouldn’t really have been left that way as he has only fitted the shoes in a way he could “guess” that was right.

having spoke to a close friend and the advice here from you guys I’m going to cal a different vet practice tomorrow and explain everything to them. I’ll also ring my insurance to just make sure i will still be covered for a second opinion, I just feel very let down and frustrated


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 March 2020)

Just like to add that the vet had to sedate her for the back shoes to go on.


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 March 2020)

I feel like a terrible owner now for allowing things that quite obviously shouldn’t have been done


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## Equi (13 March 2020)

I think you need to make some demands not ask advice any more. Most here agree the shoes should not be on - get a new farrier out and get them off and try filler. Have you had a look on fb or the like for laminitis specialists? get those xrays to a new vet (and yes you may have to pay extra for them to even look at them tomorrow if they will at all) but it really needs to be dealt with tomorrow. I don’t think you have any faith in your current vet so change them. It depends what outcome you really want here - is this going to drag on for many more months and what state will she be in “after” if any state? The biggest issue is you don’t know what triggered this. Try soaking the hay again but only for 10 mins and see how she does with it. Mix it with some dry stuffs so it may fool her a little until she can get used to it, it may seem futile but it could reduce the sugars a tiny bit. 

set yourself a time limit too. Sending good vibes to you both x


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## Equi (13 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			I feel like a terrible owner now for allowing things that quite obviously shouldn’t have been done
		
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You were following advice of a professional, it’s all many of us can do if we don’t have the experience of these things. Don’t be sorry about the past, focus on what you can do for the future.


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## be positive (13 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			I feel like a terrible owner now for allowing things that quite obviously shouldn’t have been done
		
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Don't feel like a bad owner, you have been trying your best and can only follow advice given by the pros, it is only when we start to ask more questions that we find there may be different options, I have followed the advice of vets and sometimes regretted it, we want our horses to get better so put our trust in others when we need to, if it all goes well everybody feels good, when it goes wrong we feel guilty it is only natural but you should not blame yourself, see what tomorrow brings, take care of yourself.


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## Fragglerock (14 March 2020)

I know someone whose horse had a problem it turned out it was laminitis caused by toxins.  She ended up with a second opinion before she got the diagnosis.  The horse was in a very bad way and it took 18 months but she is now riding her again and the mare looks great.  However the horse was in a lot of pain and it has cost a lot of money to get her to where she is, I'm not sure I would have done it.  I say this with a horse that has been on/off with laminitis and abscesses for nearly 18 months now but he was never in a great deal of pain with the laminitis (abscess was different) only could be described as uncomfortable.


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## holeymoley (14 March 2020)

They’re not the worst x rays or rotation. However the problem you have is that clearly the cause is still there which is why there’s no improvement. I would be concerned that the painkillers don’t seem to be working. It’s good that she’s lying down and it’s good that she’s back to eating.  I know you say she won’t eat soak hay but I would not be slow in stripping every form of food back so that she has a very very plain diet. Something like topchop zero to carry the meds/vitamins. You really need to look at the hay too and try and get it soaked even for half an hour. That shouldn’t reduce the palatability too much.


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 March 2020)

holeymoley said:



			They’re not the worst x rays or rotation. However the problem you have is that clearly the cause is still there which is why there’s no improvement. I would be concerned that the painkillers don’t seem to be working. It’s good that she’s lying down and it’s good that she’s back to eating.  I know you say she won’t eat soak hay but I would not be slow in stripping every form of food back so that she has a very very plain diet. Something like topchop zero to carry the meds/vitamins. You really need to look at the hay too and try and get it soaked even for half an hour. That shouldn’t reduce the palatability too much.
		
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My vet seems to stick by the fact that it’s a DDFT injury that has brought it on and they can’t fix this until the laminitis has cleared up so they say. She’s on plain chop just so I can get her meds into her, I’ll give the soaking a go like you say even if it’s just 30 minutes it could be the breaking point. As you say for the amount of pain relief she is on, for her to not even be comfortable enough to manoeuvre is very alarming.

I was also told metacam isn’t good for long term use, how long is classed as long term?


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 March 2020)

Fragglerock said:



			I know someone whose horse had a problem it turned out it was laminitis caused by toxins.  She ended up with a second opinion before she got the diagnosis.  The horse was in a very bad way and it took 18 months but she is now riding her again and the mare looks great.  However the horse was in a lot of pain and it has cost a lot of money to get her to where she is, I'm not sure I would have done it.  I say this with a horse that has been on/off with laminitis and abscesses for nearly 18 months now but he was never in a great deal of pain with the laminitis (abscess was different) only could be described as uncomfortable.
		
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that’s interesting. What were the toxins from? This is the thing I’m faced with, do I continue with the treatment and spending of money or do I let her go whilst she’s still somewhat bright - before it gets to the point where I HAVE to let her go. If this was me talking to someone else I know what I’d be advising but it’s so much harder when it’s your own and I really don’t want to give up on her


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## holeymoley (14 March 2020)

Unfortunately I don’t have any experience with laminitis being brought on by tendon injuries. I imagine it’s the case of the strain on the joints and trying to compensate for the pain. So it’s mechanical laminitis.

I can only compare to my gelding’s unfortunate experience with laminitis which was due to ems. Somewhat ‘easier’ to manage as the causes could be identified and eliminated very quickly by stripping the diet back to basics.  He suffered extreme rotation and was on a very bumpy ride for the first 15 weeks. He was on 4 bute per day which seemed to take the worst off the pain off him. My concern with your case is that the pain relief doesn’t seem to be working.


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## holeymoley (14 March 2020)

I also put my guy on Zeolite which removes toxins.


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 March 2020)

I can’t seem to upload a video to show you how she is movement wise. That’s also my concern, I don’t expect her to be bouncing around but the fact she’s still in this amount of pain at this stage is worrying me quite a lot


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## holeymoley (14 March 2020)

Out of interest- you say she’s predisposed to ulcers. Are you giving anything along side for the stomach with the medication? Wondering if there’s something thats allowing them maybe not to work as well.  Meds long term are not ideal for the liver or the tummy either.


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 March 2020)

holeymoley said:



			Out of interest- you say she’s predisposed to ulcers. Are you giving anything along side for the stomach with the medication? Wondering if there’s something thats allowing them maybe not to work as well.  Meds long term are not ideal for the liver or the tummy either.
		
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no she isn’t on anything for the ulcers now as they’ve cleared up


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## be positive (14 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			no she isn’t on anything for the ulcers now as they’ve cleared up
		
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I hate to say this but after 3 months of pain and meds they are likely to be back, they are at the moment less of a consideration than the feet but it is something to consider when you speak to the vets.


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## Leo Walker (14 March 2020)

Soak the hay in warm water. It will be soaked enough in 30mins and then rinse well. Even my fussy idiot eats it done that way.


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## Fragglerock (14 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			that’s interesting. What were the toxins from? This is the thing I’m faced with, do I continue with the treatment and spending of money or do I let her go whilst she’s still somewhat bright - before it gets to the point where I HAVE to let her go. If this was me talking to someone else I know what I’d be advising but it’s so much harder when it’s your own and I really don’t want to give up on her
		
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Unfortunately I don't know any further detail as I was told by someone about her after she had gone past.  If I see her again I will ask her.


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## ester (14 March 2020)

Mechanically I am confused about lifting the heel of a rotated laminitic. That's the opposite of what is usually done in order albeit it is usually suggested that the heel is lowered slowly. It is also totally inappropriate that the shoes have been on for 5 weeks, the trim will not be appropriate for now.

I have never heard of laminitis being brought on by a DDFT injury and am aware of plenty of those. Indeed cutting the DDFT is still sometimes used as a laminitis treatment (generally not recommended by those I would listen to).

Re. the toxins, that was sort of what I was getting at when I suggested something systemic and missed might be going on.

If you are unable to get your head around PTS then IMO you need to be doing some research now for second opinions, and be on the phone Monday morning arranging an appointment. I would also be messaging andrew poynton to see if anyone was imprint trained in my area or ordering some easyboot clouds asap.

Some useful links re.trimming etc by people who know much more than I do
https://forageplustalk.co.uk/the-realigning-horse-hoof-trim-dr-kellon/
https://www.imprintshoes.co.uk/treatment-of-laminitis/
https://www.daisyhavenfarm.com/blog/cloud-9-about-easyboot-clouds


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 March 2020)

ester said:



			Mechanically I am confused about lifting the heel of a rotated laminitic. That's the opposite of what is usually done in order albeit it is usually suggested that the heel is lowered slowly. It is also totally inappropriate that the shoes have been on for 5 weeks, the trim will not be appropriate for now.

I have never heard of laminitis being brought on by a DDFT injury and am aware of plenty of those. Indeed cutting the DDFT is still sometimes used as a laminitis treatment (generally not recommended by those I would listen to).

Re. the toxins, that was sort of what I was getting at when I suggested something systemic and missed might be going on.

If you are unable to get your head around PTS then IMO you need to be doing some research now for second opinions, and be on the phone Monday morning arranging an appointment. I would also be messaging andrew poynton to see if anyone was imprint trained in my area or ordering some easyboot clouds asap.

Some useful links re.trimming etc by people who know much more than I do
https://forageplustalk.co.uk/the-realigning-horse-hoof-trim-dr-kellon/
https://www.imprintshoes.co.uk/treatment-of-laminitis/
https://www.daisyhavenfarm.com/blog/cloud-9-about-easyboot-clouds

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I could be wrong about the heel thing, I’ve been told that much info about her.
She’s had the shoes on for 2 weeks not 5, I’ve just spoken with another vet to have a second set of eyes look at her and they’ve asked for the information to be sent over to my current vet ASAP so that will be being done first thing on Monday morning. One of the liveries suggested getting my current vet back to x ray but I feel like that’s a complete waste of time given the way they’ve been so far.

would something to do with toxins show up on a regular cushings/ems test? Or would it need to be a different kind of blood test?


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## ester (14 March 2020)

A sorry, I should have gone back and checked I understood what I read last night! 

Re. the toxins, no it wouldn't and I'm a) not sure where you start with that, b) am not sure it is always entirely doable. I think the general consensus is if you have a case that is not improving despite best management and treatment (the latter might not be the case here entirely) that there is something underlying perpetuating it but not always findable or resolavable. 

I am glad to read you have been in contact today. I would stop with current vet and see what the new one says. I'd want someone to xray with markers and measurements, limited point in taking more without.


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 March 2020)

ester said:



			A sorry, I should have gone back and checked I understood what I read last night!

Re. the toxins, no it wouldn't and I'm a) not sure where you start with that, b) am not sure it is always entirely doable. I think the general consensus is if you have a case that is not improving despite best management and treatment (the latter might not be the case here entirely) that there is something underlying perpetuating it but not always findable or resolavable.

I am glad to read you have been in contact today. I would stop with current vet and see what the new one says. I'd want someone to xray with markers and measurements, limited point in taking more without.
		
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that’s okay it’s confusing!

I think you could be right, from experience laminitics usually show some sign of improvement/comfort once pain relief is started and necessary measures put in place but this is just not the case for us. I’ve been to her this morning and still no chance for her, she hadn’t touched her morning net which I soaked for 30 minutes, nor had she eaten much of her tea net that wasn’t soaked. She’s had her feed which is plain chop just to her her medication into her but then she didn’t really touch her breakfast feed. But saying that she’s never been a pony to finish it in one go, she usually has it gradually over the day so I’m not massively concerned in that respect. That said, if she is off her hay then I’d imagine she’d be quite hungry and wolf it down.

I think that’s going to be my next route, I should have done this the first time I wasn’t happy with their input and I will absolutely kick myself now if it’s gone past the point of no return due to their lack of service


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## Honey08 (14 March 2020)

I’d be upset at your vet’s general lack of concern or urgency regarding the fact that the horse has been in constant acute pain for such a long time.  They seem to be of the “see what happens over the next few days” camp.  I think a second opinion is needed urgently and if this horse cannot be made more comfortable ASAP I think it’s sadly time to let them go.  Quality of life is so important to me.


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## Honey08 (14 March 2020)

Sorry, I meant to say best of luck.


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## Chianti (14 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			My mare came down with laminitis just before the new year. My vet suggested it was a torn DDFT however she worsened gradually and the vet finally agreed to x ray her 2 weeks later. They found she had slight rotation in both fronts but enough toe to take off to correct this, the farrier was contacted with the x rays and the heartbar shoes went on. She seemed a lot worse after they were fitted so they were changed to aluminium heartbars and she was re x rays before these went on. Within 2 weeks she had rotated further and they vet and farrier diagnosed her with laminitis in her back feet. They have not yet managed to x ray her backs due to the machine being broke but she has heartbars fitted at the back just for some support. Farrier has suggested keeping her bed quite wet to help her feet expand and aid healing, which I’ve done. She is on 30 paracetamol a day, 500ml (I think - 500 on the syringe) metacam and now 1.5 sedalin a day to keep her heart rate down as it was double what it should be. She can barely move, she’s hardly eating and just really fed up.
Has anyone any experience with anything like this? The vets advised me to walk her if she will walk (which she won’t) but it’s bothering me how much she’s struggling with the amount of pain relief she’s on and with how long it’s been. She can’t even move over in the stable, her back legs are actually at a point where they look like they’re about to buckle any moment. I just feel like there’s something we’re missing, she doesn’t seem to be improving whatsoever, or is this just how lami goes? I do have her x ray photos and videos of her moving (or lack of) too.
Appreciate any comments.
		
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I don't know if this has been commented on already but I would be concerned at the farrier's suggestion about bedding. If she's uncomfortable it would really help to have her on a very deep shavings bed. My last horse got laminitis and was obviously in some pain. Her shavings bed was already deep but I put another three bales in so you had to step up to get into her box from the door. I know the vet was pretty pessimistic but she didn't move from the stable for nearly a week and when I risked checking her  out of it she was much better and did go on to recover. I wouldn't think about trying to move her out of the box as this risks more damage. I would always look at Robert Eustace's web page for advice. I really sympathise as it's a dreadful thing to have to deal with. I would get a second opinion asap and decide what to do from there.


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 March 2020)

Honey08 said:



			I’d be upset at your vet’s general lack of concern or urgency regarding the fact that the horse has been in constant acute pain for such a long time.  They seem to be of the “see what happens over the next few days” camp.  I think a second opinion is needed urgently and if this horse cannot be made more comfortable ASAP I think it’s sadly time to let them go.  Quality of life is so important to me.
		
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I fully agree with you on this one. I’m getting a second opinion hopefully Monday and then will go from there. If she can’t be made comfortable then I can’t see her being able to recover, as well as that I’m not prepared to prolong her suffering anymore. I’ve owned her all her life and she is almost 11, I owe it to her to make the right decision


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 March 2020)

Chianti said:



			I don't know if this has been commented on already but I would be concerned at the farrier's suggestion about bedding. If she's uncomfortable it would really help to have her on a very deep shavings bed. My last horse got laminitis and was obviously in some pain. Her shavings bed was already deep but I put another three bales in so you had to step up to get into her box from the door. I know the vet was pretty pessimistic but she didn't move from the stable for nearly a week and when I risked checking her  out of it she was much better and did go on to recover. I wouldn't think about trying to move her out of the box as this risks more damage. I would always look at Robert Eustace's web page for advice. I really sympathise as it's a dreadful thing to have to deal with. I would get a second opinion asap and decide what to do from there.
		
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She was originally on a really deep shavings bed but the farrier said it was too dry and was making her feet too hard. He advised me to wet it through getting moisture to her feet which would help them expand and aid healing. Something I’ve never heard off but I was willing to try anything.

I won’t be moving her, I told the vet that which in his defence he did say only when she is willing to however she can’t even back up or move over in the stable, she just stands in the same spot shifting her feet


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## Chianti (14 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			She was originally on a really deep shavings bed but the farrier said it was too dry and was making her feet too hard. He advised me to wet it through getting moisture to her feet which would help them expand and aid healing. Something I’ve never heard off but I was willing to try anything.

I won’t be moving her, I told the vet that which in his defence he did say only when she is willing to however she can’t even back up or move over in the stable, she just stands in the same spot shifting her feet
		
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I would make it deep again - if she's shifting her feet then the extra support might help. You can buy Hoof Moist to put on if her hooves are drying out. I don't know where you are but the farriers at Total Foot Protection in West Sussex are great - Mike Williams is a genius with problem feet. Might be worth giving Robert Eustace a call as well. He will know what's recoverable and what isn't.


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## ester (14 March 2020)

I presumed bed was still deep, just damp?


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 March 2020)

ester said:



			I presumed bed was still deep, just damp?
		
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 Yes  however it probably isn’t as soft as a dryer bed. But the farrier said it would still support her feet


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## deepsoftheavy (14 March 2020)

I can only remember with total horror that dreadful weekend when, despite every treatment (frog supports, bute, acp, diet, deep bed, no movement) my horse got worse and worse and the vet treating him wasnt on duty. I asked for iv painkillers and sedation to try and get him through until the Monday - and tbf he was improved by then but the damage was done (sinking and more rotation). He did have a short period of relative happiness out in the field some months later but I knew then that if I had known on day 1 what was to come (it was my first experience of this dreadful disease) I would have pts staight away. I know some cases do recover but, years later, the memory haunts me and fills me with pain. Im sorry if this isnt helpful but your awful situation has bought back that terrible time with a horse I bred and loved totally and watched go through real suffering because the vet and farrier wanted to see if they could save him.


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 March 2020)

deepsoftheavy said:



			I can only remember with total horror that dreadful weekend when, despite every treatment (frog supports, bute, acp, diet, deep bed, no movement) my horse got worse and worse and the vet treating him wasnt on duty. I asked for iv painkillers and sedation to try and get him through until the Monday - and tbf he was improved by then but the damage was done (sinking and more rotation). He did have a short period of relative happiness out in the field some months later but I knew then that if I had known on day 1 what was to come (it was my first experience of this dreadful disease) I would have pts staight away. I know some cases do recover but, years later, the memory haunts me and fills me with pain. Im sorry if this isnt helpful but your awful situation has bought back that terrible time with a horse I bred and loved totally and watched go through real suffering because the vet and farrier wanted to see if they could save him. 

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I’m so sorry my post brought back some sad memories for you.  I feel like I know in my heart what I need to do it’s just accepting the fact I need to do it that’s so hard especially when my vet and farrier are hopeful they can help


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## deepsoftheavy (14 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			I’m so sorry my post brought back some sad memories for you.  I feel like I know in my heart what I need to do it’s just accepting the fact I need to do it that’s so hard especially when my vet and farrier are hopeful they can help
		
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sometimes I think professionals are in danger of looking at a living animal as a sort of experiment. Of course they want a good outcome but at what cost for how many?


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## Blazingsaddles (14 March 2020)

I’ve had a lami (ems) pony that had far worse rotation than yours and pulled through. This is how I managed it. 1. Deep bed of shavings up to the door topped up daily with fresh shavings. 2. A salt lick to encourage drinking. 3. Calculated (maintenance 2.5% if not overweight)daily soaked hay (Hot water is more efficient at removing sugars) & let dry (if fussy)divide into three feeds  for 24hr period. 4. Remove shoes and use frog supports. Stable bandages if legs are are swelling. Keep her warm. Get those heart bars off and get a rehab farrier.


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 March 2020)

deepsoftheavy said:



			sometimes I think professionals are in danger of looking at a living animal as a sort of experiment. Of course they want a good outcome but at what cost for how many?
		
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especially when there’s an insurance claim going through. The more they try the more money they get.


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## ponyparty (15 March 2020)

There is some excellent advice available from this website http://www.thelaminitissite.org/ and the related Facebook group (you do have to pay, £10 per year, but I have found their advice invaluable). So sorry you and your horse are going through this. 3 months of no change/getting worse... in your situation I think I’d pts. But getting another vet out and giving her one last chance is also totally understandable; I hope you get some better answers from this one. And the first ones - should not even be getting paid, I’d be livid with them! Not sure how that works with it being an insurance claim though.

ETA web link


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## Equi (15 March 2020)

How is your mare today P?


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## PictusSweetDreams (15 March 2020)

equi said:



			How is your mare today P?
		
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she’s no different really. No better, no worse. She’s eating her hay now though so I guess that is an improvement, I have a different vet calling me in the morning to discuss about coming to see her. I just hope my vet cooperates and sends everything over to them promptly


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## Ceriann (15 March 2020)

i have no experience of laminitis but some great support and advice on here and I would absolutely get another vet out before you make any decisions.  End of day your horse so if you want a second opinion your current vet should provide what you need.  Hope you get some better clarity.


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## MrsNorris (16 March 2020)

Will she eat Marksway hi fibre haylage? It’s less than 5% sugar and is the only forage that works with my laminitic, their Timothy haylage is the same sugar level I think, but mine doesn’t like it as much. Maybe worth a try as she won’t eat soaked hay.


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## PictusSweetDreams (16 March 2020)

Okay so an update for you all - I had a completely new vet out to her today and I’m pleased with them however sceptical still 🙄 

So basically she has bounding pulses in all 4 and she’s really bad particularly on her back end. The pain relief she was on wasn’t the best, metacam does nothing much for bone/skeletal pain so he’s put her on a high dose of bute 4 a day, upped her paracetamol to 40 a day and sedalin 1.5ml twice daily to get the blood flowing to her feet. Soaked hay only 3.5 kilos (I think that’s how it’s measured) per net per day, that’ll be fun getting her to eat that 🙄 oh and metformin 3 times daily.  He said the bed thing isn’t great, as a base yes but I need to put a huge bed down on top as it won’t be comfortable for her, he’s doing an fasting insulin test tomorrow so she needs starving from 8pm then she’ll have the syrup in the morning. They’re x raying all 4 feet tomorrow then they will go from there. He mention surgery but I’m not sure I want to go down that route really, I feel it’s quite drastic and I’m not sure she’d even be fit enough for it. But that’s another conversation for another day, we’ve agreed to see what happens tomorrow with the insulin test and x rays and go from there. He said he will decide whether the shoes will be pulled off and pads put in when he’s actually seen what’s going on inside her feet. He injected her with some painkillers that apparently are really good, My head is battered with everything though. But I’ve been told this practice is one of the best vets in the north west, I just hope I haven’t made another mistake with whom I’ve chosen to help her. So far so good (I think?)


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## PictusSweetDreams (16 March 2020)

Sorry my spelling and grammar are terrible haha!


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## [139672] (16 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Sorry my spelling and grammar are terrible haha!
		
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Good luck with your mare. I can’t offer advice as I thankfully never had to deal with laminitis but I am keeping my fingers crossed for you xx. My horse had an eye problem for 18 months and then had to have it removed and so I understand the terrible stress and worry you are going through. Best wishes Cat x


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## Chianti (16 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Okay so an update for you all - I had a completely new vet out to her today and I’m pleased with them however sceptical still 🙄

So basically she has bounding pulses in all 4 and she’s really bad particularly on her back end. The pain relief she was on wasn’t the best, metacam does nothing much for bone/skeletal pain so he’s put her on a high dose of bute 4 a day, upped her paracetamol to 40 a day and sedalin 1.5ml twice daily to get the blood flowing to her feet. Soaked hay only 3.5 kilos (I think that’s how it’s measured) per net per day, that’ll be fun getting her to eat that 🙄 oh and metformin 3 times daily.  He said the bed thing isn’t great, as a base yes but I need to put a huge bed down on top as it won’t be comfortable for her, he’s doing an fasting insulin test tomorrow so she needs starving from 8pm then she’ll have the syrup in the morning. They’re x raying all 4 feet tomorrow then they will go from there. He mention surgery but I’m not sure I want to go down that route really, I feel it’s quite drastic and I’m not sure she’d even be fit enough for it. But that’s another conversation for another day, we’ve agreed to see what happens tomorrow with the insulin test and x rays and go from there. He said he will decide whether the shoes will be pulled off and pads put in when he’s actually seen what’s going on inside her feet. He injected her with some painkillers that apparently are really good, My head is battered with everything though. But I’ve been told this practice is one of the best vets in the north west, I just hope I haven’t made another mistake with whom I’ve chosen to help her. So far so good (I think?)
		
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That sounds very reassuring. If her pain lessons then her appetite might pick up. Good luck with her.


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## PictusSweetDreams (16 March 2020)

Chianti said:



			That sounds very reassuring. If her pain lessons then her appetite might pick up. Good luck with her.
		
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much better reaction than from my previous vet! I’m off to take her food off her now so I’m hoping she’s perked you


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## ester (16 March 2020)

seems thorough and more importantly you have a plan which will get you more information. I'm very pleased you've had someone look at her so quickly.


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## Mule (16 March 2020)

That sounds much more reassuring.


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## be positive (16 March 2020)

ester said:



			seems thorough and more importantly you have a plan which will get you more information. I'm very pleased you've had someone look at her so quickly.
		
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A much better approach from this vet.


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## PictusSweetDreams (16 March 2020)

ester said:



			seems thorough and more importantly you have a plan which will get you more information. I'm very pleased you've had someone look at her so quickly.
		
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thank you so am I! I was shocked at how quickly they responded. Within minutes I had a call off my previous vet to ask for permission to send the history and then my insurance called to ask if I was swapping vets. Only downside is I’ve had to pay another excess as I’m in a new policy year and any new invoices won’t be covered on this new premium. But having said that, it wasn’t put through as laminitis by my previous vet it was down as right fore lameness so it’s classed as a new claim and she will have the full 6k cover. Every cloud I guess!


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## Pinkvboots (16 March 2020)

That sounds much better I am so relieved for you I hope you manage to get her comfortable, please let us know how the x rays go.


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## HobleytheTB (16 March 2020)

Just having a decent plan I find takes a lot of the stress off. I really hope you get a positive result. The new vet sounds a lot more proactive and helpful, which is a massive help.


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## PictusSweetDreams (16 March 2020)

Thank you all so much for your support and advice. I’ll post tomorrow with an update - praying for a good outcome but what will be will be


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## be positive (16 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Thank you all so much for your support and advice. I’ll post tomorrow with an update - praying for a good outcome but what will be will be
		
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Whatever the outcome, which hopefully will be good, you can at least know that you have done your best and the new vet is on the ball with a treatment plan, the other one is best put behind you and informed you are no longer using the practice, let them know as it may make them think next time they are in a similar situation, it will not help you but may help another owner.


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## Equi (16 March 2020)

New vet sounds much more proactive. I hope everything starts to go up from now and if it doesn’t you can hold your head high because you have done everything you could have for your mare.


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## PictusSweetDreams (16 March 2020)

equi said:



			New vet sounds much more proactive. I hope everything starts to go up from now and if it doesn’t you can hold your head high because you have done everything you could have for your mare.
		
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thank you. I’ll do as much as I can for her but I’m also prepared to be realistic too, let’s see what tomorrow brings. Will keep you posted


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## splashgirl45 (16 March 2020)

new vet sounds much better and hopefully she will improve with the stronger pain relief.  at least if you PTS you will know you have done your best for her..good luck


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## holeymoley (16 March 2020)

This vet sounds a thousand times better. Sounds like he knows what he’s talking about. Good luck!


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## PictusSweetDreams (17 March 2020)

Update 

X rays have been taken and I’m just waiting for the vet to mark them up and evaluate them. They’ve said her back feet aren’t as bad as they imagined however her front feet a bad and they have rotated quite a lot. They sedated her to do her x rays just because of how sore she is, she hasn’t had pain relief this morning due to the fasting insulin test. Once she came round from her sedation she was straight down (I’ve given her a huge comfy bed) and she was completely flat out. I’m hoping this was because she finally felt she could get down comfortably - makes me feel awful now not giving her the big fluffy bed I should have been giving her. She won’t eat, but this could be the sedation. So I’m just waiting to hear back off the vet and also back to check on her later, the girls on the yard are keeping an eye on her too. I’m just hoping that she’s down bed side she has a big bed and not because she’s giving up.


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## ponyparty (17 March 2020)

I'd want your previous vet stringing up for this! Can't imagine how you must be feeling. You were acting on advice from the professionals - it's on them, not you. Please try not to feel guilty. 

Hope the vet comes back to you soon with some hopeful news.


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## PictusSweetDreams (17 March 2020)

ponyparty said:



			I'd want your previous vet stringing up for this! Can't imagine how you must be feeling. You were acting on advice from the professionals - it's on them, not you. Please try not to feel guilty.

Hope the vet comes back to you soon with some hopeful news.
		
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It’s hard not to though isn’t it  I’ve had a chat with a couple of friends about her today and they’ve said if I do choose to pts then I can rest easy knowing I’ve done absolutely everything I can. They said they don’t know how I’m emotionally coping, the vet is here every single week but the actually praised me for how much I’ve done for her


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## Pinkvboots (17 March 2020)

ponyparty said:



			I'd want your previous vet stringing up for this! Can't imagine how you must be feeling. You were acting on advice from the professionals - it's on them, not you. Please try not to feel guilty. 

Hope the vet comes back to you soon with some hopeful news.
		
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Totally agree I still can't believe a vet can be that bad, thing is if you have no experience of certain things you put your whole trust into these professionals.


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## Pinkvboots (17 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			It’s hard not to though isn’t it  I’ve had a chat with a couple of friends about her today and they’ve said if I do choose to pts then I can rest easy knowing I’ve done absolutely everything I can. They said they don’t know how I’m emotionally coping, the vet is here every single week but the actually praised me for how much I’ve done for her
		
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I went through 4 months of my mare living at home with laminitis I basically lived and breathed it so I really understand how stressful it is, I can honestly say I never ever want to go through it again and wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Hang in on there we are all here for you to offer help and support when we can x


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## PictusSweetDreams (17 March 2020)

Pinkvboots said:



			I went through 4 months of my mare living at home with laminitis I basically lived and breathed it so I really understand how stressful it is, I can honestly say I never ever want to go through it again and wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Hang in on there we are all here for you to offer help and support when we can x
		
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It’s horrendous. I never imagined it to be this heartbreaking, I’ve never personally dealt with it but I’ve had friends with ponies that have had it. I’m losing hope though in all honesty, these next couple of days are going to be crucial I think


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## Pinkvboots (17 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			It’s horrendous. I never imagined it to be this heartbreaking, I’ve never personally dealt with it but I’ve had friends with ponies that have had it. I’m losing hope though in all honesty, these next couple of days are going to be crucial I think
		
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It is a horrible condition I just hope with the new vet they manage to turn it around for you and it's not too late, am keeping everything crossed for you.


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## ITPersonnage (17 March 2020)

My heart goes out to you I'm really sorry you and your horse are going through this, it must be terrible. Thank goodness the new vet seems to be on the ball. How the first vet sleeps at night I have no idea.


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## holeymoley (17 March 2020)

It’s is an awful experience to go through. I look forward to hearing the X-ray results and vets thoughts from there on.


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## PictusSweetDreams (17 March 2020)

My first vet had the cheek to ask why I was moving practise.

but I guess none of that matters now, I just pray that she starts to feel better


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## Marnie (17 March 2020)

Just to say that I went through this last summer and know exactly what you are going through, everything crossed that the news is ok.


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## splashgirl45 (17 March 2020)

hope you get some good news from the vet,  your last vet seemed useless to me so try not to blame yourself as you did what both he and the farrier said and we rely on them being right.  hugs xx


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## be positive (17 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			My first vet had the cheek to ask why I was moving practise.

but I guess none of that matters now, I just pray that she starts to feel better
		
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Well I hope you told them 

You have got the help she needs now and a plan of action once the results are back will give her a chance which a couple of days ago was unlikely with the wait and see approach, delays in xraying and reluctance to do much for so long, none of which was your fault, you need to be able to trust your vet and the last one let you down, this one sounds as if he will do his best.


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## meleeka (17 March 2020)

Keeping everything crossed that she’s fixable.  x


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## Leo Walker (17 March 2020)

Honestly, if she cant cope with xrays i'd be making the call. With things going the way they are with CV I wouldnt want to end up in a situation where vet care wasnt immediately available, so I'd have been thinking that way anyway. But to not be able to cope with xrays and the vet confirming theres significant rotation then for me this woud have gone too far now.


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## PictusSweetDreams (17 March 2020)

Leo Walker said:



			Honestly, if she cant cope with xrays i'd be making the call. With things going the way they are with CV I wouldnt want to end up in a situation where vet care wasnt immediately available, so I'd have been thinking that way anyway. But to not be able to cope with xrays and the vet confirming theres significant rotation then for me this woud have gone too far now.
		
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this is where I’m at now if I’m honest Leo. She’s been down most of the afternoon, just had a call to say she’s looking like she’s struggling to get up so I’m on my way back there. The vets haven’t rang yet about the x rays but the whole her getting down a lot isn’t a good sign at all. She’s not been at this point yet, but she won’t eat her meds so she must be in significant pain now and I’m bothered about the colic risk


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## tallyho! (17 March 2020)

Praying for you and her x


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## Mule (17 March 2020)

Me too x


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## ester (17 March 2020)

You might be on your way there but I would anticipate that you need to get the vets out tonight for injectable pain relief if you don't want to make any immediate decisions. 
Big hugs.


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## Amymay (17 March 2020)

I’m afraid I too would be making the call ☹️💕


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## deepsoftheavy (17 March 2020)

I too lived and breathed it for many months. A terrible rollercoaster of hope and despair. I had the digger booked three times and then cancelled because there seemed to be a glimmer of light. We did a resection on the bad foot but, in the end, I knew neither he nor I could take any more so I filled him with bute and a big concentrate feed and he went not knowing what was coming. It still hurts .... 13 years later. Stay strong and try to be objective


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## ILuvCowparsely (17 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			My mare came down with laminitis just before the new year. My vet suggested it was a torn DDFT however she worsened gradually and the vet finally agreed to x ray her 2 weeks later. They found she had slight rotation in both fronts but enough toe to take off to correct this, the farrier was contacted with the x rays and the heartbar shoes went on. She seemed a lot worse after they were fitted so they were changed to aluminium heartbars and she was re x rays before these went on. Within 2 weeks she had rotated further and they vet and farrier diagnosed her with laminitis in her back feet. They have not yet managed to x ray her backs due to the machine being broke but she has heartbars fitted at the back just for some support. Farrier has suggested keeping her bed quite wet to help her feet expand and aid healing, which I’ve done. She is on 30 paracetamol a day, 500ml (I think - 500 on the syringe) metacam and now 1.5 sedalin a day to keep her heart rate down as it was double what it should be. She can barely move, she’s hardly eating and just really fed up.
Has anyone any experience with anything like this? The vets advised me to walk her if she will walk (which she won’t) but it’s bothering me how much she’s struggling with the amount of pain relief she’s on and with how long it’s been. She can’t even move over in the stable, her back legs are actually at a point where they look like they’re about to buckle any moment. I just feel like there’s something we’re missing, she doesn’t seem to be improving whatsoever, or is this just how lami goes? I do have her x ray photos and videos of her moving (or lack of) too.
Appreciate any comments.
		
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Similar story, my vet failed to diagnose Laminitis two years running,   Then  she went lame and after  1  1/2 year battle we lost her.



  I use bedmax bedding as it more supportive and comfy for the laminitis feet.  I also had to use styrofoam pads   with duct tape.        I put her on Equimins laminator   as it makes the vessels more  able to expand to help the blood flow  https://www.equimins-online.com/en/all-products/74-equimins-laminator-supplement-pellets.html.  She was also on Founderguard   https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/1434982967...QrNB65AFTUSfi19jLwBTw9I9NZeHAoMUaAkF4EALw_wcB .




   The reason I lost her as after the first infection of the pedal bone was halted, it happened again

  MY farrier was Billy Crothers who was amazing.     Then at the end we got  ANdrew Pointin who gave us the final no hope https://www.handmadeshoesltd.co.uk/about-us/ .

  I have  several Laminitics on the yard, and we watch them like a hawk specially now as the grass will start to grow.


  My boy was on limited grazing 2 years ago, out for 2 hrs in 4 then out 2.   We put him on Turmaric and he was out from 9am  - 4pm  with very few days of warm, pulses in feet.  So they are kept on it https://www.equine-america.co.uk/tu...RjUCSGEY4on4z2MlG3bN8imWppOL7eF4aAodJEALw_wcB .


 I also bought these  frog supports  https://www.equilife.co.uk/products/frog-supports.html   and had to soak and rinse her hay,  why in gods name hammer shoes on sore feet.   Billy Crothers  are imprint shoes thus stuck on 

  If you have any more questions pm me


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## splashgirl45 (17 March 2020)

that is not sounding good,  you may have to make a big decision soon , remember that is is her quality of life you are thinking about and that is the most important thing....so sorry


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## PictusSweetDreams (17 March 2020)

deepsoftheavy said:



			I too lived and breathed it for many months. A terrible rollercoaster of hope and despair. I had the digger booked three times and then cancelled because there seemed to be a glimmer of light. We did a resection on the bad foot but, in the end, I knew neither he nor I could take any more so I filled him with bute and a big concentrate feed and he went not knowing what was coming. It still hurts .... 13 years later. Stay strong and try to be objective
		
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it’s an awful disease isn’t it. They’ve mentioned the resection to me but I know already it won’t get to that point as she isn’t fit to travel


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## PictusSweetDreams (17 March 2020)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			Similar story, my vet failed to diagnose Laminitis two years running,   Then  she went lame and after  1  1/2 year battle we lost her.



  I use bedmax bedding as it more supportive and comfy for the laminitis feet.  I also had to use styrofoam pads   with duct tape.        I put her on Equimins laminator   as it makes the vessels more  able to expand to help the blood flow  https://www.equimins-online.com/en/all-products/74-equimins-laminator-supplement-pellets.html.  She was also on Founderguard   https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/1434982967...QrNB65AFTUSfi19jLwBTw9I9NZeHAoMUaAkF4EALw_wcB .




   The reason I lost her as after the first infection of the pedal bone was halted, it happened again

  MY farrier was Billy Crothers who was amazing.     Then at the end we got  ANdrew Pointin who gave us the final no hope https://www.handmadeshoesltd.co.uk/about-us/ .

  I have  several Laminitics on the yard, and we watch them like a hawk specially now as the grass will start to grow.


  My boy was on limited grazing 2 years ago, out for 2 hrs in 4 then out 2.   We put him on Turmaric and he was out from 9am  - 4pm  with very few days of warm, pulses in feet.  So they are kept on it https://www.equine-america.co.uk/tu...RjUCSGEY4on4z2MlG3bN8imWppOL7eF4aAodJEALw_wcB .


I also bought these  frog supports  https://www.equilife.co.uk/products/frog-supports.html   and had to soak and rinse her hay,  why in gods name hammer shoes on sore feet.   Billy Crothers  are imprint shoes thus stuck on

  If you have any more questions pm me
		
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thank you, I feel like we probably won’t come back from this with her.


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## PictusSweetDreams (17 March 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			that is not sounding good,  you may have to make a big decision soon , remember that is is her quality of life you are thinking about and that is the most important thing....so sorry 

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I think I will be having to make a decision soon, things aren’t looking good at all.

I’ve been down just now and she was down but I do think it’s because she won’t eat her feed with her medication in. So I’ve put some bute in water and syringed it down. I didn’t want to give her much else as I can’t actually see what she’s eaten out of her feed as she has had a bit of a nibble so didn’t want to end up giving her too much of something. I’ll be there first thing tomorrow, my yard owner feeds her at 5am so she will update me if there’s any need to. I feel like tomorrow is going to either be a really good day or a really terrible one.


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## tallyho! (17 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			it’s an awful disease isn’t it. They’ve mentioned the resection to me but I know already it won’t get to that point as she isn’t fit to travel
		
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now wait that is barbaric and unnecessary. If they suggest that please please please pts no horse deserves that ever


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## PictusSweetDreams (17 March 2020)

I feel now I’m at a point where I’m just prolonging things for her and I’m being cruel. But I just want to await the outcome from the new vet with regards to the x rays. I think I’m just hoping there’s some kind of miracle coming my way if I’m honest


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## ester (17 March 2020)

fwiw as said before I wouldn't do a resection either.


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## PictusSweetDreams (17 March 2020)

tallyho! said:



			now wait that is barbaric and unnecessary. If they suggest that please please please pts no horse deserves that ever
		
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I can assure you it won’t be getting to that. She can’t physically travel to have the procedure anyway and I’m not prepared to put her through that


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## splashgirl45 (17 March 2020)

it might be worth speaking to your vet early in the morning in case she gets worse over night , or can you send him a text now  telling him what she is like,  if she has been down for a long time it will compromise her organs and you will have no choice but PTS


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## PictusSweetDreams (17 March 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			it might be worth speaking to your vet early in the morning in case she gets worse over night , or can you send him a text now  telling him what she is like,  if she has been down for a long time it will compromise her organs and you will have no choice but PTS
		
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I will call them first thing in the morning and let them know, I called them earlier to say she had been down. She’s up and down, luckily she can actually get up but from experience I know that this is never the good part once they start with getting down


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## splashgirl45 (17 March 2020)

so sorry, hope the morning brings better news


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## deepsoftheavy (17 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			it’s an awful disease isn’t it. They’ve mentioned the resection to me but I know already it won’t get to that point as she isn’t fit to travel
		
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we did the resection at home under GA. There was infection in the pedal bone and I knew no better than to desperately cling onto the hope given to me by the vet and farrier. However at that stage there was only one bad foot. The procedure was actually successful at that time.


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## PictusSweetDreams (17 March 2020)

deepsoftheavy said:



			we did the resection at home under GA.
		
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im not sure my vet would suggest doing it where she is stabled. I would imagine the infection risk would be too high?


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## Leo Walker (17 March 2020)

I'm sorry its come to this. I know just how hard it is to make that final call. As someone a few years down the line my only regrets now are that I didnt do it sooner. At the time I was worried that I was missing some magic fix, but that was just grasping at straws. Dont let her suffer anymore. You will never forgive yourself later on. 

Its so hard. I'm thinking of you both xx


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## deepsoftheavy (17 March 2020)

I was desperate, knew nothing about laminitis, and had a big box and a vet and farrier telling me there was a reasonable chance. There was no post operative infection. But please remember it was a single foot and it sounds as if your horse has bad rotation in both fronts? But in any case the disease won in the end. It wasnt covered by insurance and it took me a very long time to pay the vet bills (had to pay in installments) I would have sold my soul to save that horse  He was also eating and looking bright which doesnt sound like your mare. I now secretly suspect the vet was using it as a kind of career building experiment though he did certainly also want to save the horse.


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## PictusSweetDreams (18 March 2020)

Leo Walker said:



			I'm sorry its come to this. I know just how hard it is to make that final call. As someone a few years down the line my only regrets now are that I didnt do it sooner. At the time I was worried that I was missing some magic fix, but that was just grasping at straws. Dont let her suffer anymore. You will never forgive yourself later on.

Its so hard. I'm thinking of you both xx
		
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this is exactly what I think I’m doing. I’m hoping the vets will ring with some miracle news that they’ve found a way to make her better instantly. Which we all know is not the case, I owe this horse everything as she’s been my absolute horse of a life time. I at least owe it to her to stop all this, but I also feel like I owe it to her to try absolutely everything too. It’s very tough 



deepsoftheavy said:



			I was desperate, knew nothing about laminitis, and had a big box and a vet and farrier telling me there was a reasonable chance. There was no post operative infection. But please remember it was a single foot and it sounds as if your horse has bad rotation in both fronts? But in any case the disease won in the end. It wasnt covered by insurance and it took me a very long time to pay the vet bills (had to pay in installments) I would have sold my soul to save that horse  He was also eating and looking bright which doesnt sound like your mare. I now secretly suspect the vet was using it as a kind of career building experiment though he did certainly also want to save the horse.
		
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she has good and bad days. She seemed pretty bright yesterday morning and was eating her hay yesterday evening but in between she’s been down a few times and won’t touch her feed at the minute  which has all her meds in


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## meleeka (18 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			this is exactly what I think I’m doing. I’m hoping the vets will ring with some miracle news that they’ve found a way to make her better instantly. Which we all know is not the case, I owe this horse everything as she’s been my absolute horse of a life time. I at least owe it to her to stop all this, but I also feel like I owe it to her to try absolutely everything too. It’s very tough



she has good and bad days. She seemed pretty bright yesterday morning and was eating her hay yesterday evening but in between she’s been down a few times and won’t touch her feed at the minute  which has all her meds in
		
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Have you tried syringing meds? Some pain relief really needs to be given if you aren’t making the decision today. My mare won’t eat anything in a feed but will allow me to syringe them.


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## PictusSweetDreams (18 March 2020)

meleeka said:



			Have you tried syringing meds? Some pain relief really needs to be given if you aren’t making the decision today. My mare won’t eat anything in a feed but will allow me to syringe them.
		
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yes I went to the yard around 8.30pm last night to syringe them into her, I only gave her bute as I wasn’t sure what she’d actually eaten. She’s usually more than happy to eat things in her feed


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## PictusSweetDreams (18 March 2020)

I think if she’s up and down again today and off her food then I will be making that decision. She’s clearly not wanting to fight anymore if she’s this way and who am I to force her to, I genuinely never ever thought it would come to this with her. She is my horse of a lifetime


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## millikins (18 March 2020)

My thoughts are with you today whatever your decision. My small pony is just coming through her 3rd episode of lami in seven or eight years, we went for a little drive yesterday for 1st time in about 8 weeks but I have always had excellent advice from vet and farrier which is not your experience, like you I had to trust them completely 1st time as l had no idea. I adore this pony but I'm well aware she's now on borrowed time, she's 16 and we've found no metabolic reason and she isn't overweight, so if I can't manage in a sodden February, spring and summer seem daunting. Good luck today.


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## holeymoley (18 March 2020)

I really hope there’s a miracle and she’s up and brighter today.  My guy’s miracle was that he still had the spark and continued to fight himself. The night I thought about pts I gave him a big hug and cried all evening. He kept head butting and nuzzling me as if to say ‘not yet’.


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## PictusSweetDreams (18 March 2020)

millikins said:



			My thoughts are with you today whatever your decision. My small pony is just coming through her 3rd episode of lami in seven or eight years, we went for a little drive yesterday for 1st time in about 8 weeks but I have always had excellent advice from vet and farrier which is not your experience, like you I had to trust them completely 1st time as l had no idea. I adore this pony but I'm well aware she's now on borrowed time, she's 16 and we've found no metabolic reason and she isn't overweight, so if I can't manage in a sodden February, spring and summer seem daunting. Good luck today.
		
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it’s so hard when they are so special to us isn’t it. But a lot of the time we are selfish and forget to think of them first 



holeymoley said:



			I really hope there’s a miracle and she’s up and brighter today.  My guy’s miracle was that he still had the spark and continued to fight himself. The night I thought about pts I gave him a big hug and cried all evening. He kept head butting and nuzzling me as if to say ‘not yet’.
		
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I’m trying to listen to her but I just can’t work it out. Whether she’s just down because she now has a huge soft bed as opposed to the horrible wet one my first vet advised, whether she’s down because she isn’t getting the meds because she won’t take them or whether she is just truly giving up now


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## be positive (18 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			it’s so hard when they are so special to us isn’t it. But a lot of the time we are selfish and forget to think of them first



I’m trying to listen to her but I just can’t work it out. Whether she’s just down because she now has a huge soft bed as opposed to the horrible wet one my first vet advised, whether she’s down because she isn’t getting the meds because she won’t take them or whether she is just truly giving up now
		
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She may well be down because she is comfortable with the bed now and with all 4 feet sore it will give her a proper rest, it is not a bad thing in itself as long as she gets up fairly easily and regularly, eats something when she is up and you get the meds down her, I would get them all syringed in today and give her a few tiny feeds with nothing nasty in, that will ensure she gets them and give her something nice to eat, it can be a vicious circle, they feel worse without the meds and that stops them eating them, a few days getting them straight down may tip the balance. 

As for telling whether she is giving up, look at her face, if the eyes are dull it may be time to call it a day.


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## Leo Walker (18 March 2020)

deepsoftheavy said:



			I was desperate, knew nothing about laminitis, and had a big box and a vet and farrier telling me there was a reasonable chance. There was no post operative infection. But please remember it was a single foot and it sounds as if your horse has bad rotation in both fronts? But in any case the disease won in the end. It wasnt covered by insurance and it took me a very long time to pay the vet bills (had to pay in installments) I would have sold my soul to save that horse  He was also eating and looking bright which doesnt sound like your mare. I now secretly suspect the vet was using it as a kind of career building experiment though he did certainly also want to save the horse.
		
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Mine was the same, only one foot and was bright as a button. He loved people and loved the yard so was happy. I had a long talk with a friend one afternoon, and I went home and looked at the xrays side by side. I then went down when the yard was quiet and found him with his head down in the corner and his eyes dull. 

He was PTS the next morning. I was still waiting for the miracle cure as he went down from the injection. I felt awful for a long time after thinking I hadnt done enough for him and had missed something. Once the grief cleared I realised I had done too much for him in my desperation to fix him.


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## PictusSweetDreams (18 March 2020)

Leo Walker said:



			Mine was the same, only one foot and was bright as a button. He loved people and loved the yard so was happy. I had a long talk with a friend one afternoon, and I went home and looked at the xrays side by side. I then went down when the yard was quiet and found him with his head down in the corner and his eyes dull.

He was PTS the next morning. I was still waiting for the miracle cure as he went down from the injection. I felt awful for a long time after thinking I hadnt done enough for him and had missed something. Once the grief cleared I realised I had done too much for him in my desperation to fix him.
		
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grief is an awful thing. Constantly feeling like you’re not doing enough when as you say, you can possibly be doing too much. I’m on my way down to her now so will keep you all posted. Hoping to hear from the vets this morning too about the x ray outcome


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## cauda equina (18 March 2020)

I hope things are better today.
2 years ago I lost one to laminitis after years of micromanagement; sometimes I think I did too little, sometimes I think I did too much.
Sending best wishes x


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## PictusSweetDreams (18 March 2020)

She’s a lot brighter today, actually kicking off because she wanted to come out of her stable!
The vets have rang and they’re going to send me the x rays. There’s some separation in her front feet apparently and he said he wants to try the resection


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## Mule (18 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			She’s a lot brighter today, actually kicking off because she wanted to come out of her stable!
The vets have rang and they’re going to send me the x rays. There’s some separation in her front feet apparently and he said he wants to try the resection
		
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It's great her mood has improved.


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## PictusSweetDreams (18 March 2020)

Having just checked my insurance documents, I have no choice but to go through with the surgery as it states they will not pay out if I refuse treatment suggested by the vet they can potentially cure her


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## ester (18 March 2020)

This is the trouble with insurance, I would never have the decisions I made for my horse ruled by them.


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## WandaMare (18 March 2020)

Its so difficult to tell their mood when they're on meds like sedalin which can make them v quiet anyway.

One thing I remembered when reading through the posts from yesterday, a lady advising me with my laminitic, from the Laminitis trust said that when they start lying down it can actually be a sign their feet are starting to feel a little better because they are confident enough they can get back up. When their feet are really bad they instinctly know to keep standing. Also lying down is the best thing because it obviously gives the feet much more opportunity to heal. Apologies if I'm rambling on with stuff you already know, I just found it really useful when nursing mine so thought it might be worth a mention. All the best with her today x


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## be positive (18 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Having just checked my insurance documents, I have no choice but to go through with the surgery as it states they will not pay out if I refuse treatment suggested by the vet they can potentially cure her
		
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You do not need to refuse the treatment but do need to have a full idea of the implications, the prognosis with or without, then make a decision based on the facts, as long as your vet is on board with your choice the insurance should pay, it is not a clear cut choice, in this situation there may still be other options the vet can offer and that will keep the insurance co happy, it is to stop someone pts a horse rather than treat when the horse should come right.


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## PictusSweetDreams (18 March 2020)

WandaMare said:



			Its so difficult to tell their mood when they're on meds like sedalin which can make them v quiet anyway.

One thing I remembered when reading through the posts from yesterday, a lady advising me with my laminitic, from the Laminitis trust said that when they start lying down it can actually be a sign their feet are starting to feel a little better because they are confident enough they can get back up. When their feet are really bad they instinctly know to keep standing. Also lying down is the best thing because it obviously gives the feet much more opportunity to heal. Apologies if I'm rambling on with stuff you already know, I just found it really useful when nursing mine so thought it might be worth a mention. All the best with her today x
		
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its funny you say that as another livery also said the same to me this morning. The vets are just waiting for the blood test results and then they are going to make a plan for her and call me back. I’m really annoyed at my previous vet as I feel this could have all been avoided had he listened to me and x rayed her feet when she first went lame


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## Amymay (18 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Having just checked my insurance documents, I have no choice but to go through with the surgery as it states they will not pay out if I refuse treatment suggested by the vet they can potentially cure her
		
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Please don’t put her through non essential surgery. You need to speak to your vet about this. If he recommends euthanasia then your insurance will pay out. But please don’t put her through something that’s very unlikely to ultimately have a good outcome, simply for the payout.


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## PictusSweetDreams (18 March 2020)

Amymay said:



			Please don’t put her through non essential surgery. You need to speak to your vet about this. If he recommends euthanasia then your insurance will pay out. But please don’t put her through something that’s very unlikely to ultimately have a good outcome, simply for the payout.
		
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I won’t be doing it “simply for the payout” so please don’t suggest I’m doing it just so the bill gets paid as I have her best interests at heart and I’m working with the vet to decide the best outcome. He feels it will help her a lot and there’s a good chance of her recovering with the procedure being done. However I’m yet to discuss this with my farrier, we will all have to come to a mutual agreement before anything is made certain.


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## PictusSweetDreams (18 March 2020)

The x rays have been sent over to me. These are her front feet.


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## tallyho! (18 March 2020)

Wow that pedal bone is so close to the sole.... the toes are very long - even a trim to shorten the toe will help but a whole resection is completely unneccessary. Have you called a podiatrist?


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## PictusSweetDreams (18 March 2020)

tallyho! said:



			Wow that pedal bone is so close to the sole.... the toes are very long - even a trim to shorten the toe will help but a whole resection is completely unneccessary. Have you called a podiatrist?
		
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she is due her trim this week. I don’t mean to come across rude now I’m genuinely intrigued, (it’s hard to tell tone over the internet!)when you say it’s unnecessary why would a vet suggest this? I feel like if they take the shoe off they may find more that they’re hoping to with that pedal bone. I do wonder how this resection even works, I know it relieves the pressure but how can this kind of rotation be rectified with such a procedure? The vet explained it’s the pressure releasing and then she’ll be in less pain thus being able to heal better but for me that bone is so far rotated I can’t see a way back


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## ester (18 March 2020)

hooves grow, so if you manage to resolve the cause of the laminitis you can grow a tighter connection back down and the pedal bone has the potential to end up back where it should be. 
The trouble being that hooves take a fair time to grow, and sometimes don't always grow in helpful directions.


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## PictusSweetDreams (18 March 2020)

ester said:



			hooves grow, so if you manage to resolve the cause of the laminitis you can grow a tighter connection back down and the pedal bone has the potential to end up back where it should be.
The trouble being that hooves take a fair time to grow, and sometimes don't always grow in helpful directions.
		
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thank you. I’m not really overjoyed at the idea of doing it especially with how far she’s rotated. I just don’t know what to do now in all honesty, my farrier has said the procedure is a good one and can work but he isn’t filling me with confidence


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## Pinkvboots (18 March 2020)

I wouldn't have the opp no way and looking at those x rays I think I would pts sorry I know it's not what you want to hear but you looking at months and months of box rest, 

I did 4 months with my mare she hated box rest but was sound in walk after that time, I was going to give her a few more weeks then start turning out gradually, I got up one morning and she was shifting her weight again pulses through the roof she was pts the next day I couldn't see her go through it again and neither could I quite honestly.


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## Roxylola (18 March 2020)

So, insurance wise, what is your worry?  Is it that they won't pay for any of the treatment up to now if you then decline to treat further and euthanize?  Or is it that they won't pay for euthanasia?  The reason I ask is that insurance companies seem to have much more stringent factors for PTS on welfare grounds than I would, my decision for my horse (non laminitic) was made on the basis of what I knew his quality of life to be as his owner for almost 10 years. 
Basically for insurance to pay it has to be recommended by your vet and the guidelines are so stringent for a recommendation I would never personally wait that long so I would never have had the euthanasia covered.
So you can continue on the route you are on I make no judgement but if you are hoping the insurance will agree to pay for euthanasia you will have to leave your horse to struggle on longer than I personally felt reasonable.


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## meleeka (18 March 2020)

The rotation won’t be cured as such. What they will do is trim the toes so that they align more with the bone so that forces aren’t pulling them apart.  The break over point will be moved back, again to reduce forces pulling the wall away from the bone.

My old pony came back from that sort of rotation with 4 weekly trims and regular xrays.  Have they not mentioned imprints?  I believe they are very effective, although they hadn’t been invented when I had the problem.  I believe resection are done when there’s a build of up of gas. You’ve also got to get to the root cause of why she’s got it, or she’ll be at such risk of just getting worse despite treatment.
I’m pleased she’s looking brighter today. Hopefully the meds you got into are helping.


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## holeymoley (18 March 2020)

Okay so the first x Ray looks fine. Second x Ray is the big licks. Quite severe rotation, I’d say roughly 15• but your vet will be able to tell you exactly. The bone has also dropped so she has sunk in that hoof. I hope you find the cause to prevent anything further.  On looking again actually, the first x Ray, she may have almost the start of a negative palmar angle? Is this the one she has lameness on? Prior to laminitis?


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## PictusSweetDreams (18 March 2020)

Roxylola said:



			So, insurance wise, what is your worry?  Is it that they won't pay for any of the treatment up to now if you then decline to treat further and euthanize?  Or is it that they won't pay for euthanasia?  The reason I ask is that insurance companies seem to have much more stringent factors for PTS on welfare grounds than I would, my decision for my horse (non laminitic) was made on the basis of what I knew his quality of life to be as his owner for almost 10 years.
Basically for insurance to pay it has to be recommended by your vet and the guidelines are so stringent for a recommendation I would never personally wait that long so I would never have had the euthanasia covered.
So you can continue on the route you are on I make no judgement but if you are hoping the insurance will agree to pay for euthanasia you will have to leave your horse to struggle on longer than I personally felt reasonable.
		
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My worry is that if I go against the surgery, the insurance won’t pay for the treatment & euthanasia because the vets are advising the surgery will potentially cure her. But now I have to decide what is best for her, money is just that and nothing of importance especially when it comes to her.


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## PictusSweetDreams (18 March 2020)

meleeka said:



			The rotation won’t be cured as such. What they will do is trim the toes so that they align more with the bone so that forces aren’t pulling them apart.  The break over point will be moved back, again to reduce forces pulling the wall away from the bone.

My old pony came back from that sort of rotation with 4 weekly trims and regular xrays.  Have they not mentioned imprints?  I believe they are very effective, although they hadn’t been invented when I had the problem.  I believe resection are done when there’s a build of up of gas. You’ve also got to get to the root cause of why she’s got it, or she’ll be at such risk of just getting worse despite treatment.
I’m pleased she’s looking brighter today. Hopefully the meds you got into are helping.
		
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the vet has said that there is a gas pocket causing separation, that may be why he’s advised the resection?



holeymoley said:



			Okay so the first x Ray looks fine. Second x Ray is the big licks. Quite severe rotation, I’d say roughly 15• but your vet will be able to tell you exactly. The bone has also dropped so she has sunk in that hoof. I hope you find the cause to prevent anything further.  On looking again actually, the first x Ray, she may have almost the start of a negative palmar angle? Is this the one she has lameness on? Prior to laminitis?
		
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I’m not sure what the palmar angle is sorry! She was initially more lame on the one with the bad rotation


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## Roxylola (18 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			My worry is that if I go against the surgery, the insurance won’t pay for the treatment & euthanasia because the vets are advising the surgery will potentially cure her. But now I have to decide what is best for her, money is just that and nothing of importance especially when it comes to her.
		
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Ask them, at this point you've literally nothing to lose


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## Amymay (18 March 2020)

There’s no reason why they won’t pay for treatment up until the moment you puts.


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## meleeka (18 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			the vet has said that there is a gas pocket causing separation, that may be why he’s advised the resection?



I’m not sure what the palmar angle is sorry! She was initially more lame on the one with the bad rotation
		
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Sometimes it’s just a drill hole, not cutting  the whole wall away.  I think your vet sounds pretty good so I’d be guided by then if you think she’s still got the fight for life.  The key will be finding and eliminating the cause.


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## Equi (18 March 2020)

Just wait and see what the bloods say before making a decision. If the cause of the laminitis can’t be found I’d be very very reluctant to put her through anything more.


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## PictusSweetDreams (18 March 2020)

Okay so update for you all.

thank you so much by the way for all your amazing support through this time I really appreciate it and it’s so nice to be able to talk about it.

so the vet got the results back for the insulin test and he said usually they come back at around 60 for a “normal horse”. Hers came back at 126 so she does have EMS and this is likely the cause of the laminitis. So thankfully we now have a reason for this and can work on that. He’s booked her for the resection tomorrow morning, he said we may as well give it a go because it will relieve a lot of the pressure and pain and thus making her recovery more likely if the pain is managed and even eliminated. He will do it at the yard so no need to make her travel, the farrier has also rang me to explain the procedure and the recovery period which was very reassuring. They’ve both said it’s not a miracle cure, it may not in fact do anything but it’s definitely worth a try as it’s the last option we have of saving her. She’s a hell of a lot more comfortable now and a lot brighter, she’s almost back to her usually pain in the butt self haha. So I’m not ready to give up on her, I know a lot have already said they wouldn’t put her through it but I just think I have one last option to save her, so I’m going to let them at least try as we’ve really nothing to lose right now.


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## Equi (18 March 2020)

The fact you have a solid reason for the lami is great news!! Do all the research you can on ems it’s not something I know anything about but I’m sure others do.

I’d be sending a very strongly worded letter to your ex vet. This could have all be done months ago literally.

hows she going with the soaked hay? It will really really make a difference to her. Her diet is going to be one of the main factors in her recovery.


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## PictusSweetDreams (18 March 2020)

equi said:



			The fact you have a solid reason for the lami is great news!! Do all the research you can on ems it’s not something I know anything about but I’m sure others do.

I’d be sending a very strongly worded letter to your ex vet. This could have all be done months ago literally.

hows she going with the soaked hay? It will really really make a difference to her. Her diet is going to be one of the main factors in her recovery.
		
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it’s a huge relief now we have an answer to the cause. I’ve got plenty of bedtime reading to do! I think I’m going to seek legal advice if I’m honest, as you say it could have been avoided.

she’s actually eating it, I’m shocked! She’s on 7 kilos a day (I think that’s the right measurement) so I split it over the day. I’m having to give her the bute and metacam orally through a syringe because she doesn’t like her boring plain chaff!! But she seems so much happier already


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## ester (18 March 2020)

I should have given you this link before but I strongly recommend the ecir group run by Dr Kellon who has done a lot of research into metabolic horses 
https://www.ecirhorse.org/
forum link (I find it a bit confusing I think it's very old and I've never needed to manage full navigation!)
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main


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## Equi (18 March 2020)

It’s amazing how fast they can feel better when sugars are reduced. My boy is just on the cusp of ppid and in summer he can go from being a bit withdrawn to doing summer-salts in a few days after being taken of the grass. This year I’m going into it more prepared and he won’t be let at the grass at all lol


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## splashgirl45 (18 March 2020)

at least you now have a reason, which the first vet should have found !!!!!!   hopefully she will feel a lot better and good news that she is eating her hay now....at least if you do lose her you will know that you have done everything possible to give her a good quality of life.  fingers crossed for both of you...


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## deepsoftheavy (18 March 2020)

We did a resection as there was no other option apart from pts as there was infection in the pedal bone. This was actually resolved by the operation but Im not sure how your mare can cope with both feet being done? The cost will probably exceed your insurance so be prepared for that. Be prepared for a gory looking foot/feet to be re-dressed each day. As regards lying down one good vet told me the best thing a laminitic horse could do is lie down for 12 months with its feet elevated!!! The foot/feet will likely take 12 months to regrow (if she recovers) Hope this helps x


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## PictusSweetDreams (18 March 2020)

deepsoftheavy said:



			We did a resection as there was no other option apart from pts as there was infection in the pedal bone. This was actually resolved by the operation but Im not sure how your mare can cope with both feet being done? The cost will probably exceed your insurance so be prepared for that. Be prepared for a gory looking foot/feet to be re-dressed each day. As regards lying down one good vet told me the best thing a laminitic horse could do is lie down for 12 months with its feet elevated!!! The foot/feet will likely take 12 months to regrow (if she recovers) Hope this helps x
		
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I think they’re just doing the one bad foot as the other doesn’t seem as bad. This is what I’m guessing from what the vets said, it’s going to be a long road ahead but hopefully she comes right


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## Leo Walker (18 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			My worry is that if I go against the surgery, the insurance won’t pay for the treatment & euthanasia because the vets are advising the surgery will potentially cure her. But now I have to decide what is best for her, money is just that and nothing of importance especially when it comes to her.
		
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They do pay for the treatment. They wont pay for death or disposal though. I had mine PTS as enough was enough and just accepted I'd lose the insured value. for death I wasnt prepared to allow him to suffer in agony for the sake of a pay out.

I think you would be very unwise to do this. It will cost more than your vets fees insurance will pay out. So you are much better to lose the insured value and know the suffering is ended, rather than pay out for treatment which may well not work. 

I could not live with myself if I did that to a horse.


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## ycbm (18 March 2020)

I would not do a resection on a horse with the history of yours, sorry


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## fusspot (18 March 2020)

So sorry to read about everything you have gone through.My boy went down suddenly with Lami overnight-fully fit,just been at regionals.My Vet was excellent and said there must have been an underlying cause.We tested him for EMS and he came back at 230 and that was with vet running late and bloods being taken nearly 2 hours later.My boy didn’t like the wet hay to start but soon learnt to deal with it.It should be soaked for 4-5 hours maximum and then rinse off before giving as gets any sugars which it’s been sitting in off. I was absolutely gobsmacked when looking at feed especially the chaff he went on to Dengie Hi Fi Molasses Free and loved it-was at the time by far the healthiest and lowest in sugars. I had him on a very low sugar, high fibre diet so eventually went on to D & H Classic Fibre Cubes. I had him in full work and controlled by diet for 2 years and out daily for up to half a day in a muzzle.He then had another small bout of Lami and started getting a couple of abscesses.We put him on Metformin and again got him Top 10 regionals. The metformin lasted about 2 years and then he got lots of recurring abscesses which was basically him having permanent low grade Lami. I tried but was not improving and one day was shifting weight a lot even on very high painkillers.He was let go that afternoon just over a year ago.It still hurts but I know that with the EMS,there really was nothing more I could do-Vet said I couldn’t have him any lighter,could see his ribs but he still had fat pads and was never going to have any quality of life.She said that like a lot of medication, it stops working after a while.It definetly seems that as climate changes, so does the way some breeds are able to deal with it and the vet said last year they had a ridiculous amount of Laminitis and were nearly all Welshies and majority were all fit,not over weight.Good Luck,the vet and farrier wouldn’t give it a go if they didn’t think it was worth a try.I totally understand and feel waht you are going through.


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## PictusSweetDreams (19 March 2020)

Thank you everyone, I will give you an update later once her resection has been carried out. Fingers crossed it helps her


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## Yeomans (19 March 2020)

Good luck today, keeping my fingers crossed for you.


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## WandaMare (19 March 2020)

All the best with her today, hope the procedure is successful and relieves pressure for her, will keep my fingers crossed x


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## Ceriann (19 March 2020)

All the best for today - hope it provides some relief for her and you.


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## splashgirl45 (19 March 2020)

good luck for today


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## PictusSweetDreams (19 March 2020)

Thank you all, the resection went really well and there is already a huge difference in her. The vet is really pleased with how it went, she’s still not out of the woods as she has some indentation above her coronet band so we need to keep a close eye on that. But so far so good, I can’t believe the difference already


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## Mule (19 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Thank you all, the resection went really well and there is already a huge difference in her. The vet is really pleased with how it went, she’s still not out of the woods as she has some indentation above her coronet band so we need to keep a close eye on that. But so far so good, I can’t believe the difference already
		
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Great news


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## WandaMare (19 March 2020)

Great news, so pleased to hear this


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## meleeka (19 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Thank you all, the resection went really well and there is already a huge difference in her. The vet is really pleased with how it went, she’s still not out of the woods as she has some indentation above her coronet band so we need to keep a close eye on that. But so far so good, I can’t believe the difference already
		
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great news.  For this who like to be nosey did you take any photos?


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## vmac66 (19 March 2020)

Great news. Let's hope she continues to improve


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## PictusSweetDreams (19 March 2020)

meleeka said:



			great news.  For this who like to be nosey did you take any photos?
		
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Oh yes! Haha I’m not sure whether people would be a bit grossed out though if I put the close ups on so I’ll post one of her further away. Anyone wants to see close ups I’ll happily pm x


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## PictusSweetDreams (19 March 2020)

Here we go x


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## Equi (19 March 2020)

Glad it went well. She looks perky! As she starts to recover give her lots of massages and maybe even book someone to do some (but don’t let them lift her feet to stretch etc) because as her feet get less sore her muscles will start to feel worse from the overcompensation she’s been doing. 

we as a folk are never too grossed out so feel free to post the close ups as I’m sure there are many interested people.


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## WandaMare (19 March 2020)

what a sweetie, she's looking happy anyway


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## Amymay (19 March 2020)

Lovely neat job. And she’s just lovely


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## ycbm (19 March 2020)

I am very relieved to see that's a moderate resection and not a radical one.

She does look like a real sweetheart.


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## PictusSweetDreams (19 March 2020)

She is a lot happier already. She actually started to paw when her friend walked past I absolutely panicked!! But the vet said to just try and keep her stress at a minimum and if I notice her getting worked up he will advise what to do next, I’m assuming some kind of calmer/sedative as we don’t want her doing more harm than good by being her usual prat self.

I will try to attach close up photos x


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## Equi (19 March 2020)

ycbm said:



			I am very relieved to see that's a moderate resection and not a radical one.

She does look like a real sweetheart.
		
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See this is why I’m interested in this, to learn more. I have never had any real life or even through a friend experience so this whole process if very interesting. How much more could they cut out To make it severe?


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## Errin Paddywack (19 March 2020)

She looks a  real sweetheart and so pretty, hope she goes on alright.


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## PictusSweetDreams (19 March 2020)

It won’t allow me to upload the close up photos as they’re too large 😕


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## PictusSweetDreams (19 March 2020)

It will let me upload one close up. They’re pretty much the same anyway so you get the idea!


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## Equi (19 March 2020)

Fascinating! How did they do it?


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## splashgirl45 (19 March 2020)

she looks like a lovely girl, hope she keeps improving...


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## PictusSweetDreams (19 March 2020)

equi said:



			Fascinating! How did they do it?
		
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they literally drilled it out! No sedation or anything she didn’t flinch. The vet is amazing, he talked me through everything. Said to expect to see blood however it’s not common for there to be none due to the restriction of flow to the feet. The lines are the laminae, so interesting. He said the fact there was very little blood definitely confirmed it was the correct procedure and we just need to monitor her now, she’s poulticed up now too to keep everything clean and draw out any serum that he said is sitting in there. The indentation above her coronet band is bothering him and says this indicates the sinkage but again we will keep an eye on this.

its a huge relief knowing I’ve done absolutely everything I can for her now, it’s all a case of her healing correctly now


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## PictusSweetDreams (19 March 2020)

Thank you everyone once again. It’s been so much easier discussing everything on here, she is my absolute world and more. I will keep you all updated with her progress, the vet is back next week to re-X-ray, her shoes will be refitted hopefully and fingers crossed there is some improvement now this procedure has been done


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## Ceriann (19 March 2020)

Such a pretty girl.  Glad it went well.


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## ester (19 March 2020)

Thanks for the pics, here we always want the close ups 
what is the plan for the EMS? metformin? I have to say she's certainly suspect from your pic.


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## PictusSweetDreams (19 March 2020)

ester said:



			Thanks for the pics, here we always want the close ups 
what is the plan for the EMS? metformin? I have to say she's certainly suspect from your pic.
		
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yes she started her metformin Tuesday as the vet suspected this would be the cause and said even if not it would help her pain wise. I’m not familiar with it so I wasn’t aware she was typical looking, but when they came today the head vet said he would be able to tell by looking at her even though she’s not concerning to look at


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## ester (19 March 2020)

I couldn't remember if you'd mentioned it as a fairly long thread now, thanks for clarifying .


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## meleeka (19 March 2020)

I’m so pleased it went well and Thankyou for the pics.  It’s fascinating that she didn’t feel it.   I think her face in the photos prove you did the right thing.  Time will tell  of course  but at least  you can be reassured that you’ve done everything.


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## Nettle123 (20 March 2020)

Our big mare had laminitis over 20 years ago. The pedal bone came through the sole. As a last chance we took her to the laminitis clinic. She had a large dorsal hoof resection. She came back home shortly afterwards. We had to keep her bed spotless during the healing time. It took months for her recuperation but she came sound and was ridden for a further 10 years. Keeping fingers crossed for you.


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## hellspells (20 March 2020)

I haven’t read all of the post, but the first page or so I could nearly have written (and did write a post of
Pure desperation last year if you search my posts).

i just wanted to say if you trust your vet and your farrier listen to them (which is looks like you have!) mine have both been truly amazing. From
My horse who could barely stand for more than 5 mins at a time to now being back to a diva, (if I could post a pic I would!). 

She is now doing some in hand work to gradually build her up, and I should hopefully soon be able to sit on her again. I was ready to let her go but my farrier and bet truly believed in her. I wish you every luck in world.


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## PictusSweetDreams (20 March 2020)

Nettle123 said:



			Our big mare had laminitis over 20 years ago. The pedal bone came through the sole. As a last chance we took her to the laminitis clinic. She had a large dorsal hoof resection. She came back home shortly afterwards. We had to keep her bed spotless during the healing time. It took months for her recuperation but she came sound and was ridden for a further 10 years. Keeping fingers crossed for you.
		
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wow that is amazing! My girl is feeling so much better already. I’m really pleased that I changed vet and farrier and put my trust into them. However she is not completely out of trouble yet due to the sinkage but it’s all being monitored. Hopefully the next set of x rays will show some improvement 




hellspells said:



			I haven’t read all of the post, but the first page or so I could nearly have written (and did write a post of
Pure desperation last year if you search my posts).

i just wanted to say if you trust your vet and your farrier listen to them (which is looks like you have!) mine have both been truly amazing. From
My horse who could barely stand for more than 5 mins at a time to now being back to a diva, (if I could post a pic I would!).

She is now doing some in hand work to gradually build her up, and I should hopefully soon be able to sit on her again. I was ready to let her go but my farrier and bet truly believed in her. I wish you every luck in world.
		
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Thank you! It’s incredible the difference already. I don’t want to get too complacent though as she still has a very long road ahead of her but just seeing her feel more herself makes me so happy


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## LaurenBay (20 March 2020)

I am glad your girl is feeling brighter.

Really curious to know, the operation that was done, why did they do it? is it just simply it takes the pressure of the laminai? I have no experience with Lami first hand so just curious, I hope you don't mind me asking x


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## ester (20 March 2020)

Usually a lot of the pain is the build up of sebum/gas under the hoof wall. Remove the hoof wall = removal of build up.


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## LaurenBay (20 March 2020)

ester said:



			Usually a lot of the pain is the build up of sebum/gas under the hoof wall. Remove the hoof wall = removal of build up.
		
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Ah right, so It's not a cure for lami and more of a method to control the pain?


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## PictusSweetDreams (20 March 2020)

LaurenBay said:



			Ah right, so It's not a cure for lami and more of a method to control the pain?
		
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no it doesn’t cure the laminitis but it helps with pain which affects laminitis massively. When they’re in pain it reduces the flow of blood to the feet which worsens the laminitis. This is how my vet explained it, once the pain is managed she can then start to recover (hopefully) with corrective trimming and careful management. They don’t all recover, but it certainly can help. Pain management is a huge factor in rehabilitating laminitics my vet said, as well as finding and eliminating/dealing with the cause.


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## LaurenBay (21 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			no it doesn’t cure the laminitis but it helps with pain which affects laminitis massively. When they’re in pain it reduces the flow of blood to the feet which worsens the laminitis. This is how my vet explained it, once the pain is managed she can then start to recover (hopefully) with corrective trimming and careful management. They don’t all recover, but it certainly can help. Pain management is a huge factor in rehabilitating laminitics my vet said, as well as finding and eliminating/dealing with the cause.
		
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Thanks for explaining, makes sense. I hope your'e girl continues to get better.


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## PictusSweetDreams (26 March 2020)

Hi all just an update for you (in case you’re interested haha!) 

Tilly has taken a bit of a downward turn in the last few days. She had made a huge recovery pain wise and felt so much better however yesterday I noticed she was quite sore again and a bit fed up. The vet is coming back tomorrow to re x ray but he isn’t very hopeful that things will be improving. It’s hard with this lockdown too as we can’t all be there together either! Hope you’re all coping well with isolation


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## ITPersonnage (26 March 2020)

Sorry to hear that, this must be a really difficult time for you (and her). Laminitis is the worst  Hugs for you both (social distancing not withstanding)


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## meleeka (26 March 2020)

Sorry to read this update .  Has anything about her management changed? Keeping everything crossed xx


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## PurBee (26 March 2020)

Sorry to hear your update. As a last ditch attempt id whip off the shoes and get in an experienced lami remedial podiatrist barefoot trimmer to trim back the leverage on the long toes via xrays, and boot her with pads to offer stimulation and flow to the hoof, while continuing with pain strategies from your new vet.


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## Amymay (26 March 2020)

I’d been wondering how she’d been getting on. Sorry to hear of the deterioration.


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## Pinkvboots (26 March 2020)

Sorry about that how disappointing


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## PictusSweetDreams (26 March 2020)

Thank you everyone.

with regards to doing anything more I’m not really keen on the idea of putting her through anything else now, if the x rays reveal she has worsened then I will be having her pts as it just wouldn’t be fair to keep attempting to do things and hope they work. I’m gutted as she was really picking up, all her management has stayed the same. I’m not really sure what is going on with her but I’m not prepared to prolong it if things aren’t improving. She’s being x rayed tomorrow


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## Roxylola (26 March 2020)

Sorry it's not better news for you.  For what it is worth I think you are making a good decision, to x ray and make your choice from there.  Much love, it's not an easy choice


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## Amymay (26 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Thank you everyone.

with regards to doing anything more I’m not really keen on the idea of putting her through anything else now, if the x rays reveal she has worsened then I will be having her pts as it just wouldn’t be fair to keep attempting to do things and hope they work. I’m gutted as she was really picking up, all her management has stayed the same. I’m not really sure what is going on with her but I’m not prepared to prolong it if things aren’t improving. She’s being x rayed tomorrow
		
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Good luck. And in your shoes I’d be doing the same.


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## Errin Paddywack (26 March 2020)

So sorry to hear this, such a shame when she was doing so well.


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## PictusSweetDreams (26 March 2020)

It’s been a long 3 months for her. If things are worsening it’s not fair on her to keep her going for the sake of “it may work”. To me, if she’s getting worse at this point then things are very unlikely to improve


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## holeymoley (26 March 2020)

Sorry to hear this. It’s a very difficult time as well to be treating. I don’t know if we would have made it last year if it was the same climate as we’re in just now.


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## holeymoley (26 March 2020)

I know you don’t want to treat if the xrays prove worse, however, I will say my guy went good, then bad, then good then bad. It was a rollercoaster in itself. One the trim’s corrected, especially with severe rotation they can have a build up of gas or dead matter inside the hoof which will present like an abscess. My guy had 3- two small ones on one foot which he wasn’t obviously lame on and then 1 huge one on the other hoof. The two small ones were cut out by the farrier on each shoeing and the big one required a vet visit for him to pair it away and pack.  Once they had blown then it was the proper path to recovery.


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## View (26 March 2020)

Sorry to hear this, but I think your plan to x-ray and make a decision is sensible.  I also think drawing your red line that you won't cross is a good plan.  I sometimes look at the efforts made to "save" a much loved horse or other animal and think just because we can doesn't mean we should.

Quality, not quantity.


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## deepsoftheavy (26 March 2020)

My horse had frequent abscesses so it could be that.


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## splashgirl45 (26 March 2020)

sorry she has gone downhill, i think you are doing the right thing for her,  hope its good news tomorrow, fingers crossed for you


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## PictusSweetDreams (27 March 2020)

Hi all update for you

so they took her x rays and there has been a huge improvement with the rotation on her worst leg. It’s gone from 10 degrees to 4, however there is some shadowing on her x ray that suggests a deep abscess which does explain the pain she’s been having so we’re treating that with poultices and fingers crossed it will rear it’s ugly head. The farrier tried to have a bit of a root but obviously she’s in pain so didn’t want to do too much. The left fore is still the same so no worse or better degrees wise however the fact she isn’t worse is promising.

so just hoping this abscess is in fact an abscess and we can draw it downwards and she will feel a lot better from that once it’s gone. So things are looking positive despite the blip, thank you for reassuring me everyone. It’s a tough time and such an emotional rollercoaster


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## meleeka (27 March 2020)

Phew I’m so pleased she’s not any worse.  Fingers crossed for puss 😀


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## Jeni the dragon (27 March 2020)

Really glad things are improving!


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## splashgirl45 (27 March 2020)

thank goodness there is an answer to the pain problem.  you are doing a great job to get her this far and i hope she can have a good quality of life once all this is sorted.  IMO quality of life is the most important consideration so you will have to make a decision once she has stabilised.  whatever you do i am sure you will be doing what you feel is best for her sodont worry about what anyone else says.  good luck


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## PictusSweetDreams (27 March 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			thank goodness there is an answer to the pain problem.  you are doing a great job to get her this far and i hope she can have a good quality of life once all this is sorted.  IMO quality of life is the most important consideration so you will have to make a decision once she has stabilised.  whatever you do i am sure you will be doing what you feel is best for her sodont worry about what anyone else says.  good luck
		
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I fully agree. If she’s able to go out and just be happy and comfortable then I’m more than happy for that to happen. Even if it’s just walking in hand and a few hours turnout she’ll be more than happy with that.  I’m feeling really positive after today’s results so hopefully it will continue moving forward this way


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## holeymoley (27 March 2020)

That’s to be expected with the rotation. Feel free to message if you need any help or just want to talk about it, my poor guy had three lots so we’ve had our run of it!


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## PictusSweetDreams (27 March 2020)

holeymoley said:



			That’s to be expected with the rotation. Feel free to message if you need any help or just want to talk about it, my poor guy had three lots so we’ve had our run of it!
		
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thank you, It’s so worrying when you see them go downhill so quickly!


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## Ceriann (27 March 2020)

So pleased the x rays were positive and you have an answer for the pain.  You and she deserve a break.


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## deepsoftheavy (27 March 2020)

It was such a learning curve for me. I had never had a horse with an abscess before and then, suddenly, they kept coming. But we had much more severe rotation than you (in one foot). Even though the abscess itself is worrying the x rays sound positive.An incredibly cruel disease xx


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## PictusSweetDreams (27 March 2020)

I visited late this evening to check on her and she seemed pretty fed up. She was totally planned out lay down but she’s had a lot go on today bless her. Really hoping she picks up in the next couple of days as the results we wanted are coming but she just isn’t right at all


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## throughtheforest (28 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			I visited late this evening to check on her and she seemed pretty fed up. She was totally planned out lay down but she’s had a lot go on today bless her. Really hoping she picks up in the next couple of days as the results we wanted are coming but she just isn’t right at all
		
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I really feel for you and any owner going through all this with their horse. Laminitis was a huge emotional rollercoaster for me over 18 months and mine was more complicated than just ems too. I believe they can make a full recovery if you know the causes and can manage these so they can have some degree of a normal life. Mine was completely sensitive to all grass in the end and we could not obtain the right facilities to be able to manage him to live a normal life which helped me make a decision. I wish you all the best and I really empathise with the emotional roller coaster as that was the hardest part of this cruel disease.


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## Pinkvboots (28 March 2020)

So glad the rotation has improved hope she is feeling more comfortable soon fingers crossed for pus.


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## PictusSweetDreams (28 March 2020)

Thank you so much for your well wishes and support I really do appreciate it.

a question for those who have dealt with laminitis, at what point do become concerned about how much they are down? She’s not up and down really just lay down quite a lot (however she does lie down when well) but this morning I’ve gone to her she’s so miserable. Stood at the back of her stable with her head down, I’ve given her the meds and she’s flat out again. Could this just be the medication making her fee rubbish? She won’t eat her hard feed (happy hoof molasses free) and won’t entertain her hay either (soaked for 12 hours). I’m reluctant to ring the vet as they’re obviously on skeleton staff and I don’t want to just ring them if her laying down is a normal thing. But at the same time if I need to be informing them I will do as soon as.


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## ester (28 March 2020)

recumbency is not a normal thing, and generates it's own serious problems (as does not eating) please speak to your vet.


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## WandaMare (28 March 2020)

I agree, I would give your vets a call, I'm sure they would prefer to know whats going on with her. My laminitic did lie down quite a lot, I think as well as resting his feet it was because he got bored and moochy while on box rest. He would often lie down for a couple of hours in the morning, then up for another pick of hay at lunchtime, 2 hours down again in the afternoon, then when i went out to check him in the evening he was sometimes lying down again by 10pm. Even when he became well enough to go out, he would still go back to his stable and lie down again in the daytime. He seemed happy in himself though and was eating ok.


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## be positive (28 March 2020)

I think they vary, she will feel rubbish and by giving the feet a rest it may help as long as she does get up and change sides regularly with periods of being stood up, I would be concerned by her complete lack of appetite as eating nothing suggests she is giving up, see what the vet thinks, they may be on skeleton staff but she is undergoing treatment and they will be prepared to take your call.

Can you access any areas to pick some bits and bobs, obviously you don't want to feed lots of rich grass but a few handfuls may brighten her day, the goosegrass is growing and most love that, nettles pulled and wilted are enjoyed by some as are dandelions, just a few may help and they are all good in various ways, my pony used to get lots of 'weeds' when he was on box rest, as long as you know they are from a safe place it is worth a try.


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## PictusSweetDreams (28 March 2020)

Vets have said just keep an eye on her over the next couple of hours. Said it’s potentially a cumulation of yesterday’s visit and the medication wiping her out. But a friend on the yard has given me some fibre beet to try her with later, just concerned that she’s not eaten and had medication it surely can’t be making her feel great


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## PictusSweetDreams (28 March 2020)

be positive said:



			I think they vary, she will feel rubbish and by giving the feet a rest it may help as long as she does get up and change sides regularly with periods of being stood up, I would be concerned by her complete lack of appetite as eating nothing suggests she is giving up, see what the vet thinks, they may be on skeleton staff but she is undergoing treatment and they will be prepared to take your call.

Can you access any areas to pick some bits and bobs, obviously you don't want to feed lots of rich grass but a few handfuls may brighten her day, the goosegrass is growing and most love that, nettles pulled and wilted are enjoyed by some as are dandelions, just a few may help and they are all good in various ways, my pony used to get lots of 'weeds' when he was on box rest, as long as you know they are from a safe place it is worth a try.
		
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that’s a good idea! I will have a wander down to the paddocks and pick her a few bits up to see if that helps her. The lack of eating bothers me too, not to mention the colic risk. Why oh why do they do this to us!?


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## Amymay (28 March 2020)

Have you had the x ray results?


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## Ceriann (28 March 2020)

Good advice re picking her some bits.  When box resting mine (not for laminitis), I picked some branches so she could nibble leaves and wilted nettles (pretty quick with this weather) and bunched them for her.  I put bits and bobs in different places in stable for interest.  So sorry she seems so miserable - not experienced it but you are doing your very best for her and lots of very knowledgeable people on here.


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## throughtheforest (28 March 2020)

At the moment now you have some idea of whats going on with her, I would try and work out the best way of keeping her comfortable on top of pain meds and try and see what sort of food she would like, mine responded well to Thunderbrooks healthy herbal chaff and magnesium oxide in that made the world of difference to him. 
It's a matter of trial and error and one day something will kick in and she will turn a corner.


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## PurBee (28 March 2020)

The heat from the abscess and pressure from that building inside the hoof causes pain and they will lay down more with them. My gelding pops an abscess bi-annually and he walks as if his leg is broken for 3 days while the abscess is brewing. I soak him during this time, animalintex pads etc. Once its tracked through to releasing out the foot sole, frog, or heel bulb, he walks fine. So abscesses are very painful for them. He would lay down a lot during the days they were brewing.

Your girl has more going on too with the medication etc, so its expected she’ll be down more.

Im wondering if there is a small, soft ground, turnout area very close to her stable she could be out in for a couple of hours?... as movement on suitable soft ground can stimulate blood flow to the hoof moreso than standing in a stable...and help pop that abscess faster. 
It might also help to lift her spirits to be out in the fresh air and sun, see other horses, have a bit of a munch.

Isolation does affect animals, when i was a child our young GSD had a kidney infection...off to vets overnight...she got worse...she stayed there, only for reports of her getting worse daily, then she wouldnt eat....we went there eventually to say goodbye to her as vets suggested pts...when we arrived she jumped up at us and was crazy happy to see us, while the vets were amazed how suddenly she showed life...she came home with us and was fine. She missed her usual routine and family, and just laid there at the vets refusing everything they offered. She gave up.

Is there another horse/pony your horse is close to that she’s been separated from while she’s been on box rest? Can she still interact with horses from her stable? Complete isolation/loneliness is difficult for man aswell as beast (as covid19 isolation is revealing) Horses love to be in a herd...even if thats a tiny herd!


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## holeymoley (28 March 2020)

Mine would have breakfast then go down late morning back up for lunch then back down again. It’s good for them to take the weight off their hooves. I agree with the picking, a little bit of something she likes could cheer her up. I left the stable door open for mine when I was around so he could walk out if he wanted to and mooch about.


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## PictusSweetDreams (28 March 2020)

Amymay said:



			Have you had the x ray results?
		
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yes the rotation has reduced from 10 degrees to 4 in her worst foot and the other is the same



PurBee said:



			The heat from the abscess and pressure from that building inside the hoof causes pain and they will lay down more with them. My gelding pops an abscess bi-annually and he walks as if his leg is broken for 3 days while the abscess is brewing. I soak him during this time, animalintex pads etc. Once its tracked through to releasing out the foot sole, frog, or heel bulb, he walks fine. So abscesses are very painful for them. He would lay down a lot during the days they were brewing.

Your girl has more going on too with the medication etc, so its expected she’ll be down more.

Im wondering if there is a small, soft ground, turnout area very close to her stable she could be out in for a couple of hours?... as movement on suitable soft ground can stimulate blood flow to the hoof moreso than standing in a stable...and help pop that abscess faster.
It might also help to lift her spirits to be out in the fresh air and sun, see other horses, have a bit of a munch.

Isolation does affect animals, when i was a child our young GSD had a kidney infection...off to vets overnight...she got worse...she stayed there, only for reports of her getting worse daily, then she wouldnt eat....we went there eventually to say goodbye to her as vets suggested pts...when we arrived she jumped up at us and was crazy happy to see us, while the vets were amazed how suddenly she showed life...she came home with us and was fine. She missed her usual routine and family, and just laid there at the vets refusing everything they offered. She gave up.

Is there another horse/pony your horse is close to that she’s been separated from while she’s been on box rest? Can she still interact with horses from her stable? Complete isolation/loneliness is difficult for man aswell as beast (as covid19 isolation is revealing) Horses love to be in a herd...even if thats a tiny herd!
		
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unfortunately getting her out of the stable isn’t an option as she is just too uncomfortable to even move in her stable and refuses to come out. There are some horses on the yard that are still in but most are out on turnout now due to coronavirus. It’s a really hard situation without all this self isolating as we aren’t allowed near each other or each other’s horses. It really is a super tough time at the moment


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## throughtheforest (28 March 2020)

I agree with trying to perk her up a bit, anything you can possibly get away with at all even if she likes a certain dog, just trying to think outside the box a bit!


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## PurBee (28 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			yes the rotation has reduced from 10 degrees to 4 in her worst foot and the other is the same



unfortunately getting her out of the stable isn’t an option as she is just too uncomfortable to even move in her stable and refuses to come out. There are some horses on the yard that are still in but most are out on turnout now due to coronavirus. It’s a really hard situation without all this self isolating as we aren’t allowed near each other or each other’s horses. It really is a super tough time at the moment
		
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I understand. Many yards are designed far away from paddocks, which is a shame, as under box rest scenario a small area, so they cant go loopy on loads of grass but get some more movement and fresh air/interaction can be so useful.

Do you know anyone with a thermal imaging camera? You could use that to look at her abscess hoof and see where its located and possibly help farrier to relieve it. Im surprised vets and farriers dont carry around heat imaging cameras as theyre so useful for seeing where possible pain=heat problems originate. Maybe ask your vet/farrier?

There are thermal imaging apps you use in combo with a smarphone if your tech savvy:
https://thermogears.com/best-thermal-imaging-apps-android-ios/


I’ve used animalintex medicated poultice pads with great success to help abscesses pop quickly. Maybe someone on the yard has a stock they can lend you one from? You momentarily dunk the pad in boiling hot water, and apply to the sole hot, squish it into the frog and gaps....and wrap it in place with vet-wrap. You can do it with shoes on. Sometimes within 24hrs the abscess has popped and leaves a gunky mess on the pad. If the abscess wants to track out at the white line, the shoe might prevent that from happening, and cause it to track under the sole, and out at the frog/bars/heel bulb.


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## PictusSweetDreams (28 March 2020)

PurBee said:



			I understand. Many yards are designed far away from paddocks, which is a shame, as under box rest scenario a small area, so they cant go loopy on loads of grass but get some more movement and fresh air/interaction can be so useful.

Do you know anyone with a thermal imaging camera? You could use that to look at her abscess hoof and see where its located and possibly help farrier to relieve it. Im surprised vets and farriers dont carry around heat imaging cameras as theyre so useful for seeing where possible pain=heat problems originate. Maybe ask your vet/farrier?

There are thermal imaging apps you use in combo with a smarphone if your tech savvy:
https://thermogears.com/best-thermal-imaging-apps-android-ios/


I’ve used animalintex medicated poultice pads with great success to help abscesses pop quickly. Maybe someone on the yard has a stock they can lend you one from? You momentarily dunk the pad in boiling hot water, and apply to the sole hot, squish it into the frog and gaps....and wrap it in place with vet-wrap. You can do it with shoes on. Sometimes within 24hrs the abscess has popped and leaves a gunky mess on the pad. If the abscess wants to track out at the white line, the shoe might prevent that from happening, and cause it to track under the sole, and out at the frog/bars/heel bulb.
		
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they picked up on the location through the X-ray as it was a shadow area that they saw and suggested a possible abscess, so we’re not 100% sure that’s what it is. I’ve wrapped her feet up with animalintex and a nappy so just have to hope it draws out. Her feet have both been wrapped up for over a week now though after her resection would I can’t see it being an abscess unless it’s deeply rooted


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## ycbm (28 March 2020)

Dead laminae,  killed by the laminitic attack, will be breaking down, then causing an abscess from inside. It's a common result. I hope it exits soon and eases your mind.

.


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## PictusSweetDreams (28 March 2020)

ycbm said:



			Dead laminae,  killed by the laminitic attack, will be breaking down, then causing an abscess from inside. It's a common result. I hope it exits soon and eases your mind.

.
		
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that’s right, the farrier said it could be serum behind where the hoof wall has separated, is this this same thing?


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## ester (28 March 2020)

no serum and dead cells are different, but both lami issues.


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## ycbm (28 March 2020)

The  most likely exit will be at the coronet band, have you  poulticed right up the hoof?

.


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## Fragglerock (28 March 2020)

My horse took about 4 weeks before the abscess came out at the coronet band.


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## PictusSweetDreams (28 March 2020)

ycbm said:



			The  most likely exit will be at the coronet band, have you  poulticed right up the hoof?

.
		
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I have yes  



Fragglerock said:



			My horse took about 4 weeks before the abscess came out at the coronet band.
		
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I’m hoping this doesn’t take 4 weeks, I don’t think she will be able to stand the pain for that long alongside the laminitis


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## Fragglerock (29 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			I have yes 



I’m hoping this doesn’t take 4 weeks, I don’t think she will be able to stand the pain for that long alongside the laminitis
		
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It was a long 4 weeks but only in the one foot although he had laminitis in the 2 months leading up to it (his was mild in that he looked uncomfortable on concrete and not too bad in the stable).  He wasn't lying down at all with the abscess which worried me as he likes a sleep, I think he was worried about getting up, and he is not a diva about pain.  The difference in him when it burst was instant.  He has been up and down since then but after 8 months I am now back riding him - as much as I can with this going on.


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 March 2020)

Well I’ve been informed by my yard owner this morning that we can only visit once a day and that she will administer the medication in a morning which I’m not happy about at all. I don’t think she realises the amount she has to give her plus soaking her nets too. I wish this coronavirus would get gone!


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## The Jokers Girl (29 March 2020)

Your pony sounds very advanced in its suffering and its feet seem seriously compromised.  I ma shocked that your vet has advised walking it around.  Are they a specialist equine vet?  No active laminitic should be anywhere but in a stable with very deep bedding and imobilised as much as possible. It is a myth that they are stabled to stop them eating grass.  They are stable to stop them moving and the laminae are separated and the hoof structure cannot super their weight.  The pain of laminitis is likened to having your fingernail ripped out.  When mine came down if it a few years back she was imobilised for 6 weeks, I had to muck out around her and keep her on shavings 8" deep, for the next 6 weeks she was allowed one lap of the yard and then increased to 30 mins turnout of a very small patch of scrub ground.  Laminitis is not always treatable so you need to start making plans and decisions and possibly seeking a 2nd opinion as your vets advise to walk around a crippled pony is shocking.


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## Ceriann (29 March 2020)

Can you type out a note for your YO to follow?  Its so hard for this to all be happening now for you but get the details down and you can feel comfortable there is no doubt what needs doing?


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## ester (29 March 2020)

My biggest concern would not be that I couldnt' medicate her myself, but that I couldn't check her demeanor.


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 March 2020)

ester said:



			My biggest concern would not be that I couldnt' medicate her myself, but that I couldn't check her demeanor.
		
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this is another worry for me. YO doesn’t know the pony so can’t tell me whether she’s picking up or worsening. She’s asked me to leave her a note with details of everything on but I’m really not comfortable with doing it, I know we have to limit outside time but I deem this an exceptional circumstance


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## millikins (29 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			this is another worry for me. YO doesn’t know the pony so can’t tell me whether she’s picking up or worsening. She’s asked me to leave her a note with details of everything on but I’m really not comfortable with doing it, I know we have to limit outside time but I deem this an exceptional circumstance
		
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Would your vet give you a letter confirming this is indeed an exceptional situation? Which would take the responsibility from YO for isolation.


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 March 2020)

millikins said:



			Would your vet give you a letter confirming this is indeed an exceptional situation? Which would take the responsibility from YO for isolation.
		
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I’m not sure they would as the fact she’s offering to administer the medication would mean animal welfare is covered. The fact I’m not comfortable is just my issue really isn’t it, I’ll be sending her a detailed list of everything she needs in a morning and hoping YO runs a mile 😂


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## millikins (29 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			I’m not sure they would as the fact she’s offering to administer the medication would mean animal welfare is covered. The fact I’m not comfortable is just my issue really isn’t it, I’ll be sending her a detailed list of everything she needs in a morning and hoping YO runs a mile 😂
		
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I would certainly ask. I would be deeply unhappy at leaving an extremely sick animal in the care of a non veterinary person who is unfamiliar with it. She doesn't just need meds, she needs close monitoring, didn't they want to hospitalise her but she was unfit to travel?


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 March 2020)

millikins said:



			I would certainly ask. I would be deeply unhappy at leaving an extremely sick animal in the care of a non veterinary person who is unfamiliar with it. She doesn't just need meds, she needs close monitoring, didn't they want to hospitalise her but she was unfit to travel?
		
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I mean don’t get me wrong she is a very experienced horse person however I just don’t think she’s being fully accommodating. I’m fully aware of the government guidelines and it states nowhere that livestock cannot be tended to more than once so why she is saying this is beyond me. I think I’m quite within my rights to want to see to my own horse, plus she wants us to pay her!


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## Ceriann (29 March 2020)

Can you perhaps suggest a second time that is very early or late (so no one else there)?  Only alternative I can think is a video cam so you can see her - i know its not the same.


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## millikins (29 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			I mean don’t get me wrong she is a very experienced horse person however I just don’t think she’s being fully accommodating. I’m fully aware of the government guidelines and it states nowhere that livestock cannot be tended to more than once so why she is saying this is beyond me. I think I’m quite within my rights to want to see to my own horse, plus she wants us to pay her!
		
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I think you need to fight this. All through your post you have been considering that you might need to pts, and that decision would be because of a sudden deterioration and on veterinary advice. Your mare is still under active treatment from your vet, and however experienced your YO if she has not been part of the day to day care of your horse she might not recognise worsening condition, particularly if she now has the whole yard to attend to. No Govt restrictions would deny necessary veterinary intervention, I would be insisting I attend to my horse.


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## Amymay (29 March 2020)

If she won’t allow you up twice a day, under these circumstances I’m afraid I’d pts.


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## meleeka (29 March 2020)

Amymay said:



			If she won’t allow you up twice a day, under these circumstances I’m afraid I’d pts.
		
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After all OP has been through with this mare?  I’d put the YO down first 😂


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## Amymay (29 March 2020)

meleeka said:



			After all OP has been through with this mare?  I’d put the YO down first 😂
		
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I think it’s the inevitable outcome sadly (sorry op), and has now become a welfare issue if the OP is no longer able to care for her properly herself.


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## holeymoley (29 March 2020)

The Jokers Girl said:



			Your pony sounds very advanced in its suffering and its feet seem seriously compromised.  I ma shocked that your vet has advised walking it around.  Are they a specialist equine vet?  No active laminitic should be anywhere but in a stable with very deep bedding and imobilised as much as possible. It is a myth that they are stabled to stop them eating grass.  They are stable to stop them moving and the laminae are separated and the hoof structure cannot super their weight.  The pain of laminitis is likened to having your fingernail ripped out.  When mine came down if it a few years back she was imobilised for 6 weeks, I had to muck out around her and keep her on shavings 8" deep, for the next 6 weeks she was allowed one lap of the yard and then increased to 30 mins turnout of a very small patch of scrub ground.  Laminitis is not always treatable so you need to start making plans and decisions and possibly seeking a 2nd opinion as your vets advise to walk around a crippled pony is shocking.
		
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I agree with the majority of your post having experienced the same unfortunate circumstances myself. However, the horse has had remedial shoeing which has corrected the trim, walking on the horse’s own accord (not forced) will encourage the blood supply to heal and promote new hoof growth. I wouldn’t walk at all at the first instance when the laminae is inflamed as you then risk the increase in rotation or sinking. OP’s horse has had this for 3 months and as said above trimmed to correct and shod. The problem she now has is the abscess/seroma which has yet to come to the surface.


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## holeymoley (29 March 2020)

OP I’m frustrated for you with the Yo. I’d fight with every being that I have to make her see sense in you going up twice a day. Get gloves, mask, disinfectant whatever, tell her you will be ONLY seeing to your horse and no more.


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## moosea (29 March 2020)

Sorry op, I would have pts a while ago. If you are now in a position where you cannot care for the horse then I see little other option.


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## ycbm (29 March 2020)

Amymay said:



			If she won’t allow you up twice a day, under these circumstances I’m afraid I’d pts.
		
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I'm sorry, but I would be in this camp too.

This lockdown will  be a lot longer than 3 weeks, as it has been everywhere else that's ahead of us.  You will be driving yourself crazy. If you PTS  you will know she is no longer in pain.

.


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 March 2020)

I’ve been really nice about it and put my point across. I just can’t understand why she’s allowing liveries to ride but when it’s a genuine necessity I can’t go to administer medication. This is not what I need right now!


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## millikins (29 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			I’ve been really nice about it and put my point across. I just can’t understand why she’s allowing liveries to ride but when it’s a genuine necessity I can’t go to administer medication. This is not what I need right now!
		
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Forget being nice, stand your ground, YO is being unreasonable and compromising the veterinary welfare of a horse in her care. Your horse needs more than "administering medication", she needs close monitoring. I agree with the posters who would be looking at pts in these circumstances though if you and your vet think there is still some hope for your horse I would try and enlist their support first and if necessary call WHW and discuss the welfare issue with them.


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## meleeka (29 March 2020)

Give her written instructions and make them as complicated as you can.  When she realises it might be more work than she thought she might just relent.  Do you have a set time to be there on your once a day?


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 March 2020)

meleeka said:



			Give her written instructions and make them as complicated as you can.  When she realises it might be more work than she thought she might just relent.  Do you have a set time to be there on your once a day?
		
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good idea! She’s told everyone to go to the yard after 1pm, where is the logic in this though? As then everyone will be down together anyway! I’m truly baffled. I also have to change dressings twice a day


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## Equi (29 March 2020)

Yo is not being unreasonable at all it’s their property and they are in direct risk by letting people into it. Any yards that are still open are being very very good, I’m incredibly thankful my yard is still open!

Op you’ve been through so much with her so it is hard to say as I want a good news story more than anything but with the new abscess and the way things are globally I’d really think about pts on welfare grounds. Yo is very good to offer to give meds etc but you are going to put a lot of stress on both them and yourself for what is probably a low chance of recovery anyway. Thank about the future now, this mare is on boxrest for the next few months after already being on it for nearly 4, she is likely not able to ever graze normally again or eat a normal diet, she may never come in to work again. Is her life after this doing to be significantly better or worse than it was before she became ill? What if you become ill tomorrow and are not able to see her for 2 weeks?


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## Amymay (29 March 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			I’ve been really nice about it and put my point across. I just can’t understand why she’s allowing liveries to ride but when it’s a genuine necessity I can’t go to administer medication. This is not what I need right now!
		
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So, to be clear, other liveries can go up but you can’t?


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## ester (29 March 2020)

I think they can all go up but only once a day.


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## Ceriann (29 March 2020)

OP has been told she can only go up once a day.


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 March 2020)

Okay I’ve had a chat with YO and she now understands where I’m coming from and why I cannot only visit once a day so we have an agreement that I can attend in the morning to give her the meds and change the dressing and return in the evening to finish off.
That’s one stress over with, with regards to if I got sick and couldn’t attend the yard, I’m not sure what I would do if I’m honest. I am taking each day as it comes for the moment but the only option would be to have my YO step in. I’ll be honest, I hadn’t thought that far ahead admits the chaos.


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## ester (29 March 2020)

Please make sure you give your YO something in writing that either herself, or that she is to contact someone else you trust if you are sick/cannot attend and the mare needs decisions making. 
We have ours at home but both our freelancer and a friend have letters saying they have permission to make a PTS decision if we aren't there.


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 March 2020)

ester said:



			Please make sure you give your YO something in writing that either herself, or that she is to contact someone else you trust if you are sick/cannot attend and the mare needs decisions making.
We have ours at home but both our freelancer and a friend have letters saying they have permission to make a PTS decision if we aren't there.
		
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thank you this is a very good bit of advice. I am currently writing up a care plan should it be needed, I feel now though like I’ve overreacted to having my YO owner do the morning meds and dressing change as if (god forbid) I was to get struck by the virus or need to self isolate, I would need her to step in (she won’t allow other liveries to help and new visitors to the yard).



equi said:



			Yo is not being unreasonable at all it’s their property and they are in direct risk by letting people into it. Any yards that are still open are being very very good, I’m incredibly thankful my yard is still open!

Op you’ve been through so much with her so it is hard to say as I want a good news story more than anything but with the new abscess and the way things are globally I’d really think about pts on welfare grounds. Yo is very good to offer to give meds etc but you are going to put a lot of stress on both them and yourself for what is probably a low chance of recovery anyway. Thank about the future now, this mare is on boxrest for the next few months after already being on it for nearly 4, she is likely not able to ever graze normally again or eat a normal diet, she may never come in to work again. Is her life after this doing to be significantly better or worse than it was before she became ill? What if you become ill tomorrow and are not able to see her for 2 weeks?
		
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You have a very valid point, something I hadn’t actually considered. I’m writing up the care plan for the 2 weeks if it is needed (hopefully not) at this time though I am not sure what things will be like if she does come out the other side of the laminitis. For now I’m just taking it day by day and assessing how she is coping/progressing with it. For now she is comfortable again (minus the abscess) and I’m hoping once that goes she will continue to improve. I’m not sure if you have ever dealt with it but it is a massive emotional rollercoaster and every day I question myself and whether I’m making the right choices for her as opposed to me. It’s so tough


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## The Jokers Girl (29 March 2020)

holeymoley said:



			I agree with the majority of your post having experienced the same unfortunate circumstances myself. However, the horse has had remedial shoeing which has corrected the trim, walking on the horse’s own accord (not forced) will encourage the blood supply to heal and promote new hoof growth. I wouldn’t walk at all at the first instance when the laminae is inflamed as you then risk the increase in rotation or sinking. OP’s horse has had this for 3 months and as said above trimmed to correct and shod. The problem she now has is the abscess/seroma which has yet to come to the surface.
		
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I read in one of the posts that OP posted that there is still further rotation and that is why there is such an urgency for re x raying, apologies if I misread, there are a lot of replies on this post.  If the laminitis is still very much active, the laminae still compromised and inflamed and further rotation occurring the pony should not even be removed from the stable to muck out, walk around etc.  As long as the pony has a box big enough to allow movement and a deep enough bed the movement it can manage on it's own accord should help compression of the frog and therefore blood flow.


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## be positive (29 March 2020)

Your YO should get an 'authority to act' from every client, in fact every YO should get these now just in case the worst should happen while the owner is unwell and waiting for a reply to a text/ call is not in the best interests of the horse, a vet can make the decision but it is far better for the horse, owner, vet and YO if this is set up already, they should be able to call a vet any time of day or night, certainly any who are taking over full livery care or other restrictive measures need to know they can be trusted to contact a vet, the owner could have been rushed into hospital and be out of contact while a horse is suffering from colic.   

It will not give them the power to have a horse pts that is otherwise healthy or get a vet to deal with a minor injury so should not be a concern for the owner but will give some peace of mind if they are taken ill, or worse.


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## ITPersonnage (29 March 2020)

I think there's plenty of us who have been in exactly your shoes with laminitis before but not with these horrendous "other factors" involved as well. Only you can decide when your mare has had enough, you see her and know her better than anybody else. I just wish you the very best, it is a heartbreaking situation to be in so just do your best and know that you are the first or last person to throw the towel in if that's what you decide to do.


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## PurBee (29 March 2020)

holeymoley said:



			OP I’m frustrated for you with the Yo. I’d fight with every being that I have to make her see sense in you going up twice a day. Get gloves, mask, disinfectant whatever, tell her you will be ONLY seeing to your horse and no more.
		
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Agreed, hopefully her YO will balk at the work needed for the pony, considering she has the rest of the yard to care for too.
the government guidelines are unlimited if caring for the ‘vulnerable’. Animal or human, whilst maintaining distancing guidelines. So if a person or animal needs medication administering 5 x a day, that is ‘allowed’. 
‘Essential’ verses ‘non essential’ -medical care and monitoring of medical health status for animal or human is essential.

Your YO knows youre only dealing with your horse, and seperating yourself, i’d talk with them, with back up from your vet that only you are qualified in this case to know your horses status, as a stranger doesnt ‘know’ the horse.

fingers crossed for you she allows your continued visits for your horse.


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 March 2020)

So my YO has issued a message to state any horse that is fit enough to live out must do so. Near to stay in “in case they throw a coat” or these crazy other reasons people don’t turn them out for. There is myself and 1 other livery (stabled on the other side of the yard) who is permitted to be there. Other liveries will have to pay for full livery if theirs have to stay in but aren’t actively unwell (previously laminitic but no meds) which I think is fair. It’s such a hard situation for everyone to be in and I can only imagine it will worsen, my girl is actually picking up aside of her soreness with this abscess she is otherwise quite content. I’m lucky she’s quite placid really, I’ve got the farrier back tomorrow to refit her left fore heartbar as he didn’t want to do them both at the same time When having her x rays Friday, as she was quite sore from them faffing about with her. I hope you’re all keeping safe and things aren’t too stressful for you all at this horrendous time


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## Yeomans (3 April 2020)

How is your horse doing Pictus?


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## PictusSweetDreams (3 April 2020)

Yeomans said:



			How is your horse doing Pictus?
		
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thanks for asking.

she is a lot better this last day or so, Wednesday she had a mild dose of colic because she decided she didn’t want to eat and it caused her to get into a bit of a state. Not sure why she decided she wasn’t eating but obviously on the amount of medication she’s on it didn’t help her situation. Anyway the vet came and gave her a rectal in case of impaction however everything was clear and how it should be, they gave her fluids and electrolytes and she perked up a lot. Still waiting for the abscess to come through but they vets have now removed the shoes as they feel it won’t be helping with the pressure in her foot from this abscess and laminitis - obviously the main priority is to ensure she is as pain free as possible. She’s still very sore but I think the majority of the pain is coming from this abscess, I’m really hoping I see it come through soon because it’s been a week since her last x rays and I really don’t want to be chasing the thing for weeks on end like some people do!

but all in all there is improvement, my vet is keen to reduce the pain relief as soon as we reasonably can so not to cause any other side effects, so this abscess needs to get itself out now as I’m hoping once it is, she will begin to feel a lot better


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## be positive (3 April 2020)

Good she is doing ok, the issue you have with the abscess is that the anti inflammatories, that she must have for the laminitis, will suppress the abscess and probably slow down it's progress which may they take a long time to come out, are you tubbing every day as well as poulticing? as that should help get it moving but be patient as it will come out eventually. 

Do what you can to encourage her to drink, when they are on soaked hay they tend to drink far less and can get a bit dehydrated, being really well hydrated will help prevent colic but is also good for healing generally, she obviously cannot have treats but if you can give a bucket of very sloppy speedibeet/ electrolytes/whatever she likes that may tempt her to drink more as well as plain water it may help.

It seems she is heading in the right direction and that this vet is so much better than the previous one that whatever the outcome you now know you have done everything possible.


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## PictusSweetDreams (3 April 2020)

be positive said:



			Good she is doing ok, the issue you have with the abscess is that the anti inflammatories, that she must have for the laminitis, will suppress the abscess and probably slow down it's progress which may they take a long time to come out, are you tubbing every day as well as poulticing? as that should help get it moving but be patient as it will come out eventually.

Do what you can to encourage her to drink, when they are on soaked hay they tend to drink far less and can get a bit dehydrated, being really well hydrated will help prevent colic but is also good for healing generally, she obviously cannot have treats but if you can give a bucket of very sloppy speedibeet/ electrolytes/whatever she likes that may tempt her to drink more as well as plain water it may help.

It seems she is heading in the right direction and that this vet is so much better than the previous one that whatever the outcome you now know you have done everything possible.
		
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I’m not tubbing but I’m going to give it a go as a friend suggested this but with Epsom salts too, is that safe to do?

I actually thought about giving her some speedi beet but I wasn’t 100% sure it was safe for laminitis. It was more because I wanted to up her fibre intake especially if she isn’t keen on eating her hay


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## holeymoley (3 April 2020)

Yes espsom salts are the way to go for tubbing.
Speedi beet is fine too for laminitics.


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## be positive (3 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			I’m not tubbing but I’m going to give it a go as a friend suggested this but with Epsom salts too, is that safe to do?

I actually thought about giving her some speedi beet but I wasn’t 100% sure it was safe for laminitis. It was more because I wanted to up her fibre intake especially if she isn’t keen on eating her hay
		
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Speedibeet is a good source of fibre and also carries plenty of fluid into the hindgut which should help her stay well hydrated.

Tubbing with Epsom salts should help soften the hoof and give a better chance of the abscess coming out, get the water hot but not so hot it will cause discomfort where the resection has been done,  you probably don't want that part in the water if avoidable.


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## holeymoley (3 April 2020)

I’m now wondering if it’s a good idea to tub. You don’t want to soften the hoof too much.

I fed Formula 4 Feet while my guy was growing new hoof- he has super strong feet now. Just an after thought I forgot to mention before.


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## PictusSweetDreams (5 April 2020)

The speedy beet was a hit. She’s back to eating every last scrap, I’m not really sure what was going on with her but I think the amount of medication was a huge factor. She’s now only (I say only haha) on 1.5 bute and 20 paracetamol twice a day and the difference is amazing! She’s brighter, happier to stand more and just looks all round happier. This is opposed to what she was on - 2x bute, 20 paracetamol, 1.5ml sedalin, 20ml pentoxifyllin twice a day. I think it was just too much for her.

still no sign of the abscess and it’s been a week now, really hoping it’s not going to be one of these pain in the bum abscesses that take weeks to come through. However I am questioning if that’s even what it is, her soreness has improved massively however she still is obviously sore. All a bit baffling really! Horses eh


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## Ceriann (5 April 2020)

That’s good news and you must be so relieved to see her change and improve.


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## meleeka (5 April 2020)

That’s a good update .  I find Speedibeet invaluable for keeping hydration levels up and also for fibre.  All mine have varying amounts of it outside the grazing season.


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## holeymoley (5 April 2020)

That’s great to hear. Keep going with the abscess there will be something in there. 
I’d pop her on Protexin Gut Balancer too for a few days- her tummy has taken a big hit with all the pain meds.


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## PictusSweetDreams (6 April 2020)

Thank you!

I’ll have a look at the gut balancer see if I can get hold of some. Does anyone have any laminitis friendly tips for masking the taste of meds in a feed? She’s only on bute and paracetamol now and happily takes the paracetamol in her feed but I’m wanting to get the metformin and bute in there too so I don’t have to constantly syringe them into her. Was thinking some garlic or spearmint something like that, but I’m not sure if that’s lami friendly!


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## ester (6 April 2020)

please don't use garlic, it's an antimicrobial so definitely not what her gut needs. 
mint is fine, I think apple cider vinegar might be fine too though I had no success with either, others do.


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## holeymoley (6 April 2020)

Simple systems to some chopped spearmint x


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## hellspells (6 April 2020)

Peppermint essence is what worked for mine (on similar levels of drugs as yours). Got from the supermarket in the baking section.
Just one tiny consolation if she’s still laying down a lot, the vet said it was my mares saving grace as she didn’t end up with contracted tendons which is incredibly common in these type of cases. But doesn’t make it easier to see!


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## Fragglerock (6 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Thank you!

I’ll have a look at the gut balancer see if I can get hold of some. Does anyone have any laminitis friendly tips for masking the taste of meds in a feed? She’s only on bute and paracetamol now and happily takes the paracetamol in her feed but I’m wanting to get the metformin and bute in there too so I don’t have to constantly syringe them into her. Was thinking some garlic or spearmint something like that, but I’m not sure if that’s lami friendly!
		
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Mine won't eat bute but will eat Danilon


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## PictusSweetDreams (6 April 2020)

Bought some mint to go in her speedy beet and it was a hit! No more nasty syringes for now, she’s a lot brighter too she’s lay down less and nowhere near as sore looking. Still no puss yet though, my farrier said he will come later in the week and have a dig if there’s still nothing


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## ester (6 April 2020)

great news.


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## FFAQ (7 April 2020)

Could it have been a close nail if she's improving and the shoes have been removed?


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## Pinkvboots (7 April 2020)

hellspells said:



			Peppermint essence is what worked for mine (on similar levels of drugs as yours). Got from the supermarket in the baking section.
Just one tiny consolation if she’s still laying down a lot, the vet said it was my mares saving grace as she didn’t end up with contracted tendons which is incredibly common in these type of cases. But doesn’t make it easier to see!
		
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I use peppermint essence it's great stuff I can syringe anything with that added and have used it in feed, the Dr Oatker one has no sugar either so it won't do any harm


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## splashgirl45 (7 April 2020)

good update, glad she is more comfortable, well done for confronting the YO in a sensible way....keep us posted..


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## Yeomans (10 April 2020)

How are you getting on?


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## PictusSweetDreams (10 April 2020)

Hi so an update.

the farrier has been today and wants to try imprint shoes on her. Her soles are basically non existent now and he is concerned. But the fact she is bright and happy in herself means he wants to have this last ditch attempt at getting her on the road to recovery. She’s still sore, but not as bad and I have managed to reduce her bute to just 2 a day now. I will attach photos of her worst foot, I did panic as I thought the bone was through her sole but the farrier said it’s serum - the same as what came out of the dorsal resection. He said at this point he is unsure what direction she will go in but if there is anymore sinking she will be pts.


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## Errin Paddywack (10 April 2020)

I really don't envy you coping with this.  Everything crossed that she starts to improve soon and no more sinking.


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## ester (10 April 2020)

I think I was pro imprints a few pages back. There's been a few people on here that they have been very useful for and would be my go to if I had a horse with lami that needed that sort of help.


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## meleeka (10 April 2020)

Imprints really can make a massive difference.  Keeping everything crossed they make her more comfortable.


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## PictusSweetDreams (10 April 2020)

I really think she’s beyond repair now if I’m honest. I don’t really see how imprint shoes are going to help the sinking she has. You can see in her coronet band how badly she’s sunk down.


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## ester (10 April 2020)

It's always your call you see the horse in front of you and you also see her more than any of your professionals do.

Is she still eating ok at the moment?


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## meleeka (10 April 2020)

I think you can trust your farrier and vet to guide you.  It sounds as if this is the last thing to try, so you may as well do it then you know you’ve done everything x


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## PictusSweetDreams (10 April 2020)

She is eating at the minute yes, she’s bright enough too which is hopeful. My farrier and vet are being fantastic but I do feel like this is now a last ditch attempt to help get her right. Though I do feel we have gone beyond the point of no return


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## holeymoley (10 April 2020)

Imprints are good for those with not enough hoof. It could work.
She does have very little sole and I can see what you mean from the coronary band. The serum is normal, mine had that. My farrier said if you press the area they should not react, if they do then you’re in trouble.  

If you haven’t already, I’d start on Formula 4 feet to grow the best hoof you can. I done this in January last year when we started remedial shoeing and came off it in October, hooves were corrected by June and growing down nice and tightly and strong.


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## splashgirl45 (10 April 2020)

thinking of you and hoping imprints work...good luck


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## Dusty 123 (10 April 2020)

my friend want though the exact same problems the horse world improve and  than get worsen and than improved again it would keep going round in circles . My  friend did put the horse to sleep . The discussion is up to you .


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## PictusSweetDreams (10 April 2020)

I feel like such a negative nancy but I just feel like I’ve come to the end of the road with her now after seeing her soles today. My farrier wasn’t overly concerned but he did say there is barely any sole now to play with - does this mean any more movement and it’s literally the end?

I’ll have a look at the farriers formula stuff it would be worth starting her one something soon I think.

I’ve heard amazing things about imprints, I just don’t feel like much is going to help her now. Really do feel like too much damage has been done


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## Pearlsasinger (10 April 2020)

I would look at her quality of life, now and in the future.  Will having imprints put on, worsen her qol short term - cause pain?  Or make her more comfortable.  Will they help her feet to recover and get her back to a more normal way of life.  Will she be able to spend time in a field with companions, or will she be kept in a stable/grass-free arena for the rest of her life?
Only you can decide what is acceptable to you.  I know what I would choose if she were my horse.
I have had 2 equines with laminitis - one a 12hh welsh pony and the other a young Shire., neither ended well tbh.


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## holeymoley (10 April 2020)

I think if you’re feeling like this deep down then you know the answer. What has the vet said the prognosis is once she’s fixed? Will she ever be ridden again or field ornament?

I can only go from my own experience when I talk in this post. My guy was lucky enough not to sink as I’ve said before and he is back to a normal life. I did say to my vet if there was a chance the sole was so thin that the bone could come through then I’d rather we ended it before that happened.


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## PictusSweetDreams (10 April 2020)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I would look at her quality of life, now and in the future.  Will having imprints put on, worsen her qol short term - cause pain?  Or make her more comfortable.  Will they help her feet to recover and get her back to a more normal way of life.  Will she be able to spend time in a field with companions, or will she be kept in a stable/grass-free arena for the rest of her life?
Only you can decide what is acceptable to you.  I know what I would choose if she were my horse.
I have had 2 equines with laminitis - one a 12hh welsh pony and the other a young Shire., neither ended well tbh.
		
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short term the imprints “should” improve her quality of life. Both vet and farrier have said that at this point there is no way of predicting the future outcome simply because of how up and down she is. We do have “lami paddocks” for use in summer however there are only 3 to be shared between around 7 laminitis liveries so we have to work around each other. It’s something I would address when and if the time comes for her to go out.




holeymoley said:



			I think if you’re feeling like this deep down then you know the answer. What has the vet said the prognosis is once she’s fixed? Will she ever be ridden again or field ornament?

I can only go from my own experience when I talk in this post. My guy was lucky enough not to sink as I’ve said before and he is back to a normal life. I did say to my vet if there was a chance the sole was so thin that the bone could come through then I’d rather we ended it before that happened.
		
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My girl has sunk in both fronts and you can see from the pictures it’s pretty bad. She has thin soles and that’s why they think she’s feeling the pain more than most would at this stage. I feel like that’s a good way to look at it though, I’d hate for it to get to a stage where the bone comes through it makes me feel sick at the thought. My farrier said there’s barely any sole left now and I don’t think I’ve ever heard of them reversing sinking. Rotation can be corrected but I don’t think sinking can can it?


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## ester (10 April 2020)

you might find this helpful regarding sinking 
http://www.hoofrehab.com/SinkingCoffinBones2.html


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## holeymoley (10 April 2020)

In my eyes sinking can’t be reversed- rotation can’t really as such either, it’s just the trim that re-aligns things. I don’t have experience with sinking but could you not go back to pads to give the sole more support while gets a chance to thicken? If the hoof has been trimmed to re align with the pedal bone then it’s more support she needs now.


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## tallyho! (10 April 2020)

I too would be in exactly the same frame of mind. Nothing more to do except to ease pain and relieve this brave girl from her misery. God bless both of you for trying xx


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## PictusSweetDreams (10 April 2020)

This is exactly my thinking too holeymoley. I can’t see how it can be reversed at all now, they’re wanting the imprints on Tuesday when everything reopens and I feel like I should give it a go but then I also don’t see the point in spending £150 on something that simply won’t work in the long run. My farrier and vet are fantastic but I haven’t had a straight answer from them yet, I just want one of them to tell me what I should be doing and not be “trying this and it might help” type of thing. If this was me talking to a friend I know what I’d say but why is it so much harder when it’s your own?


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## OldNag (10 April 2020)

I am really sorry you have got to this point. I have been following your story. 

Having lost 2 ponies to this - one of whom had imprints which we thought were going to do the trick - I  have said to myself that if it went on this long I wouldn't put a pony through it again.

I really feel for you x


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## ycbm (10 April 2020)

I wouldn't carry on if she was mine PSD, sorry 

.


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## Equi (10 April 2020)

I think you’re waiting for them to tell you it’s time so that it eases the burden on you. I totally get that. But at the same time you have to be the one to step up to the line now and make the decision. That is a disturbing photo of her hoof to me. And again my worry is about her future life and what it will be like for her. Quality over quantity..


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## ester (10 April 2020)

Much as I do think imprints are great as you know she wouldn't have had the resection if she were mine. I don't think making the decision is ever easy though.


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## Pearlsasinger (10 April 2020)

Domesticated horses are at a disadvantage compared to the wild zebra that they are related to.  If zebras get laminitis or a similar problem, they don't get the chance to keep stopping for a lie down, or to hobble about feeling pain.  They will be the next one to be taken by a hungry lion.  Horses only very rarely die of 'natural causes' or spontaneously.  

It as a horrible decision to make but for domesticated horses, the owner has to decide how much the horse can put up with, quality of life must surely take precedence over quantity.

I have had horses for about 50 years, mostly in multiples and they have a home for life with us, so I have made 'that' decision several times, it never gets any less heartbreaking but it does become easier to judge when the time is right.  IME vets will let you go on treating any animal, not just horses, way past the time when it would be better to stop, unless something catastrophic happens.


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## deepsoftheavy (10 April 2020)

I expect the reason your vet and farrier wont give you a straight pts advisory is because they honestly dont know for sure how things will develop and, its possible that the vet feels the horse isnt in acute distress at this particular moment in time. I had the same experience...no one was prepared to push me into the decision. Its a truly horrible place to be...and I knew so little about the condition.


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## meleeka (10 April 2020)

I usually ask my vet “what would you do if it were yours”.

You’ve tried so hard for her, I think in your shoes I’d probably go for the imprints just as the final thing.  I’m guessing £150 is a drop in the ocean to what you’ve already spent.   If they don’t work I don’t think you’ll be any worse off then you have your cut off point when you’ll know that nothing else can be done. Your vet sounds pretty good so I doubt they’d be recommending them if they thought it was a pointless case.  I’d trust my vets not to do that or they wouldn’t be my vets. 

Obviously If you wake up and decide enough is enough them that’s ok too.


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## southerncomfort (11 April 2020)

Lots of excellent advice but I just wanted to add that if *you* have reached the end of the road and don't feel like you want to continue, that is just as valid when making the decision on whether to PTS or not.

Nursing a sick horse is absolutely exhausting and their is nothing wrong with saying 'I've had enough'.

You've been through so much with this mare and you've tried everything you possibly could. You know yourself that the long term outcome is unlikely to be a good one  so no one would blame you one bit if you decided to make the call now.


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## PictusSweetDreams (11 April 2020)

Thank you all so much you really don’t know how much the support you give means to me. 


equi said:



			I think you’re waiting for them to tell you it’s time so that it eases the burden on you. I totally get that. But at the same time you have to be the one to step up to the line now and make the decision. That is a disturbing photo of her hoof to me. And again my worry is about her future life and what it will be like for her. Quality over quantity..
		
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this is exactly what I’m waiting for however neither of them can predict which way things are going to go. It makes it worse that she’s still got a bit of her sparkle left


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## PictusSweetDreams (11 April 2020)

OldNag said:



			I am really sorry you have got to this point. I have been following your story.

Having lost 2 ponies to this - one of whom had imprints which we thought were going to do the trick - I  have said to myself that if it went on this long I wouldn't put a pony through it again.

I really feel for you x
		
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thank you. I also don’t feel the imprints will work for her with how badly she’s sunk now. Can I ask how they didn’t do the trick? Was it just that your ponies were too far down the line for them to have an effect?


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## misst (11 April 2020)

I haven't posted before but followed your story. You have tried so hard but from bitter experience it is your decision. It is only you who can make the decision. I feel you have made it but cannot quite bring yourself to say it out loud. 
Vets rarely give a yes/no answer. They are in a difficult position - one of my vets who I respected immensely was quite blunt and brutal and would say" these are expensive animals, breakable, fragile and costly to maintain. If you have come to the point where you feel you no longer can continue then the time has come to PTS not hand the problem on or wait and see." I found his honesty refreshing but other people thought he was hard and unfeeling. He wasn't - he was experienced and put horses first not people.
I kept a horse on box rest for months and it was another experienced vet who actually said to me this horse has a non recoverable injury you need to PTS. I was so shocked and devastated as had not understood the suffering I had put him through. I still had other people on the yard making "helpful" suggestions and encouraging me to keep trying. Since then I have made the decision a couple more times. It's never good or easy or even bearable at first - but it is not about me. Ask yourself the question why am I doing this. If it is because you want more time with her or because you hope she will improve (to what end? how much?) then that is for you not her. Horses do not know about tomorrow. Only today matters and if today is awful they don't have "hope for tomorrow" only the awfulness of now. 
Only you know the answers but she has suffered a lot.
My sincere condolences for your predicament and for your pain.
Better a day too soon than a moment too late is my motto now - and I truly wish someone had been honest with me years ago - but no one wanted to be the one to do it and I was too blind to see so my horse suffered. I still feel guilty 17 years later.


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## PictusSweetDreams (11 April 2020)

misst said:



			I haven't posted before but followed your story. You have tried so hard but from bitter experience it is your decision. It is only you who can make the decision. I feel you have made it but cannot quite bring yourself to say it out loud.
Vets rarely give a yes/no answer. They are in a difficult position - one of my vets who I respected immensely was quite blunt and brutal and would say" these are expensive animals, breakable, fragile and costly to maintain. If you have come to the point where you feel you no longer can continue then the time has come to PTS not hand the problem on or wait and see." I found his honesty refreshing but other people thought he was hard and unfeeling. He wasn't - he was experienced and put horses first not people.
I kept a horse on box rest for months and it was another experienced vet who actually said to me this horse has a non recoverable injury you need to PTS. I was so shocked and devastated as had not understood the suffering I had put him through. I still had other people on the yard making "helpful" suggestions and encouraging me to keep trying. Since then I have made the decision a couple more times. It's never good or easy or even bearable at first - but it is not about me. Ask yourself the question why am I doing this. If it is because you want more time with her or because you hope she will improve (to what end? how much?) then that is for you not her. Horses do not know about tomorrow. Only today matters and if today is awful they don't have "hope for tomorrow" only the awfulness of now.
Only you know the answers but she has suffered a lot.
My sincere condolences for your predicament and for your pain.
Better a day too soon than a moment too late is my motto now - and I truly wish someone had been honest with me years ago - but no one wanted to be the one to do it and I was too blind to see so my horse suffered. I still feel guilty 17 years later.
		
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thank you so much.

you are right, I know what is to be done but admitting it and going through with it is the part I’m struggling with. She is my heart horse and I always said no amount of money would stop be from fixing anything for her. However I’ve reached a dead end now, it’s not even a case of oh maybe if we do this then this will help. She has next to no sole left on her feet which to me means it’s only a matter of time before things get very nasty and I don’t want to be at that point I’d rather let her go before that and whilst she’s happy (ish). I’m going to have a good chat with my farrier on Tuesday face to face as he is brutally honest which most don’t like but I do and I appreciate it. My vet is amazing but on the flip side I do think a lot of vets think they have superpowers (don’t get me wrong some have made amazing recoveries from things such as this) however I just don’t think this is a pony that can be saved. She isn’t weight baring on the worst leg now (pics of her hoof/sole in previous comments) and as I say I know it’s only a matter of time before it gets to a bad point.

I’ve been told sinking cannot be reversed and the vet did say if the indentation on her coronet band gets bigger (it has see previous pics) then it’s basically game over as this cannot be stopped or effectively reversed whereas the pedal bone can be realigned (if that’s the right term) by corrective trimming but the mechanics of the foot will forever be compromised. I think I’m being selfish just because I want to keep her if I’m honest. I love the bones of her and I just want things to be back to normal but they never will be now. It’s hard because she’s still bright and alert but she’s suffering now and at the point where everything has been done and tried and she’s just not improving.

this is how she stands now. It baffles me, she’s happy to stand up and faff about but holds the leg up even though it’s padded up beyond belief and she is barefoot.


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## Equi (11 April 2020)

Is that the hoof with the abscess?

regardless I would not be happy leaving her until tuesday if that’s how she is standing. I’m sorry


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## PictusSweetDreams (11 April 2020)

equi said:



			Is that the hoof with the abscess?
		
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Unfortunately there is no abscess. After 2 weeks of poulticing and the farrier digging around there was nothing to be found. The shadowing is likely to be a gas pocket/serum build up but yes this is that foot. The one I posted pictures of her soles


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## Pearlsasinger (11 April 2020)

I'm really sorry, she is standing like that because she is in pain if she puts that foot down.  She uses the foot to get up and down because she has to and will be putting as little weight on it as possible to do so.  I would give her as much pain relief as possible/necessary to keep her comfortable and let her go tomorrow, if she were mine.  I know that it is difficult, not just because she is your horse but also because you have an emotional investment in the treatment too.  I am afraid that you have been badly served by the professionals, especially the first vet but I do think that the new vet and farrier should have taken some responsibility for pointing out the likelihood, or not of successful treatment.


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## PictusSweetDreams (11 April 2020)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I'm really sorry, she is standing like that because she is in pain if she puts that foot down.  She uses the foot to get up and down because she has to and will be putting as little weight on it as possible to do so.  I would give her as much pain relief as possible/necessary to keep her comfortable and let her go tomorrow, if she were mine.  I know that it is difficult, not just because she is your horse but also because you have an emotional investment in the treatment too.  I am afraid that you have been badly served by the professionals, especially the first vet but I do think that the new vet and farrier should have taken some responsibility for pointing out the likelihood, or not of successful treatment.
		
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I agree. Horses don’t rest front feet unless they’re in agony am I right? I understand the laminitis is painful but she isn’t actually rocking back like she was, she just holds this foot up now and it’s got so much padding on. This is the one with barely any sole left on. Now correct me if I’m wrong but if the farrier says there’s virtually no sole left, this can only mean it’s a matter of time before that bone penetrates isn’t it?

I could kick myself for not swapping vets sooner but it is what it is. Had it not taken them a month to x ray her we may not be in this position. I just don’t understand why she isn’t recovering, or is that just how it happens sometimes? I’ve never dealt with laminitis personally I’ve only ever known people with horses that have had it.


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## Pearlsasinger (11 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			I agree. Horses don’t rest front feet unless they’re in agony am I right? I understand the laminitis is painful but she isn’t actually rocking back like she was, she just holds this foot up now and it’s got so much padding on. This is the one with barely any sole left on. Now correct me if I’m wrong but if the farrier says there’s virtually no sole left, this can only mean it’s a matter of time before that bone penetrates isn’t it?

I could kick myself for not swapping vets sooner but it is what it is. Had it not taken them a month to x ray her we may not be in this position. I just don’t understand why she isn’t recovering, or is that just how it happens sometimes? I’ve never dealt with laminitis personally I’ve only ever known people with horses that have had it.
		
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I think we have been given a false sense of security, if that's the right term, about laminitis because some horses do recover and places like Rockley have successfully rehabbed some but tbh they are the minority, really - and probably their laminitis isn't 'that' bad.  Horses are the most badly 'designed' animals - their digestive systems are very susceptible to going wrong and their feet are far too small for their size/bodyweight.  There is a school of thought that laminitis is a symptom of digestive issues, which makes sense to me.

I don't think you should blame yourself for the first vet's failings, you followed his advice with no experience to tell you otherwise.  My farrier always blamed the vet for the loss of my Shire but tbf, I think she probably had very early onset Cushings and there was no treatment available at that time - he could have given better advice though!

Remember that I can't see your horse in person and a few photos don't give the whole picture but please do have a serious conversation with your vet/farrier as soon as you can - and I would certainly give her as much pain relief as possible, she must be in agony on that foot.


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## ycbm (11 April 2020)

For info of anyone seeking laminitis rehab, Rockley don't rehab laminitis only navicular syndrome and foot balance issues.

Gawsworth Track Livery do though. 

.


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## PictusSweetDreams (11 April 2020)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I think we have been given a false sense of security, if that's the right term, about laminitis because some horses do recover and places like Rockley have successfully rehabbed some but tbh they are the minority, really - and probably their laminitis isn't 'that' bad.  Horses are the most badly 'designed' animals - their digestive systems are very susceptible to going wrong and their feet are far too small for their size/bodyweight.  There is a school of thought that laminitis is a symptom of digestive issues, which makes sense to me.

I don't think you should blame yourself for the first vet's failings, you followed his advice with no experience to tell you otherwise.  My farrier always blamed the vet for the loss of my Shire but tbf, I think she probably had very early onset Cushings and there was no treatment available at that time - he could have given better advice though!

Remember that I can't see your horse in person and a few photos don't give the whole picture but please do have a serious conversation with your vet/farrier as soon as you can - and I would certainly give her as much pain relief as possible, she must be in agony on that foot.
		
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The digestive issues is another thing I am faced with. She had grade 4 ulcers last summer and recovered well but I think this may have had something to do with the EMS/laminitis because before these I never had a single worry with her over anything. I’m 99.9% certain that the ulcers are back, she’s lost condition understandably and she’s very tucked in.

the thing I’m struggling with is having that conversation, where do I even start? Do I just outright say I think enough is enough? Do I just ask what their view is? I fear I won’t get the advice I’m desperately seeking if I don’t ask the right question


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## PictusSweetDreams (11 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			For info of anyone seeking laminitis rehab, Rockley don't rehab laminitis only navicular syndrome and foot balance issues.

Gawsworth Track Livery do though.

.
		
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I have spoke with Gawsworth recently funnily enough. However Tilly wouldn’t be fit to travel to them and I genuinely don’t think they could rehabilitate a pony with laminitis as bad as hers


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## Pearlsasinger (11 April 2020)

" I am wondering if enough is enough for her.  What would you do if she were your horse?"  I have asked that question several times of various vets over the years, sometimes substituting dog/cat for horse.


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## ycbm (11 April 2020)

equi said:



			Is that the hoof with the abscess?

regardless I would not be happy leaving her until tuesday if that’s how she is standing. I’m sorry 

Click to expand...


I am so sorry but from that picture and your previous set,  I would bute her to the eyeballs tonight and have her PTS tomorrow. 

As to how, you call the vet and tell them you are not prepared to see her in this much pain any longer and you want it done. 

I'm so sorry.


.


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## Amymay (11 April 2020)

You simply tell the vet that you believe that it’s time to let her go. Or you call the hunt xx


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## OldNag (11 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			thank you. I also don’t feel the imprints will work for her with how badly she’s sunk now. Can I ask how they didn’t do the trick? Was it just that your ponies were too far down the line for them to have an effect?
		
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 With the one who had imprints- she had been on box rest with it for 4 weeks, possibly more. Her rotation had improved but it started getting worse again, and when she started with sinking too we decided she had been through enough.


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## PictusSweetDreams (11 April 2020)

Thank you I have never dealt with this before as my old boy was pts with the hunt last year however I don’t think they are operating anymore as they have closed the hunt group down.

I will have the conversation with my vet and farrier. I do think I’ve done everything I can now and this conversation keeps cropping up - it’s going round in circles when inevitably I know the answer


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## PictusSweetDreams (11 April 2020)

OldNag said:



			With the one who had imprints- she had been on box rest with it for 4 weeks, possibly more. Her rotation had improved but it started getting worse again, and when she started with sinking too we decided she had been through enough.
		
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thank you for that.

we are almost at 4 months box rest with the rotation slightly improving however the sinking is getting worse and from what I’m told there is no coming back from that


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## OldNag (11 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			I am so sorry but from that picture and your previous set,  I would bute her to the eyeballs tonight and have her PTS tomorrow. 

As to how, you call the vet and tell them you are not prepared to see her in this much pain any longer and you want it done. 

I'm so sorry.


.
		
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I absolutely agree with this. I don't think there is anything else you can do and I wouldn't want to wait any longer.

I am so sorry.


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## Pearlsasinger (11 April 2020)

Our local Equine Crem/fallen livestock collector has put a fb notice out that they are still operational.


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## ycbm (11 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Thank you I have never dealt with this before as my old boy was pts with the hunt last year however I don’t think they are operating anymore as they have closed the hunt group down.

I will have the conversation with my vet and farrier. I do think I’ve done everything I can now and this conversation keeps cropping up - it’s going round in circles when inevitably I know the answer
		
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If you were happy with the hunt there will be other compassionate licensed slaughtermen (sorry!)  

If you say whereabouts you are we can possibly give you a number. I know two who cover the east side of Cheshire, for example.

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## ester (11 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			For info of anyone seeking laminitis rehab, Rockley don't rehab laminitis only navicular syndrome and foot balance issues.

Gawsworth Track Livery do though.

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They definitely had a welshie withchronic lami issues a few years ago, I saw him at one of the meet ups, can't remember his name though or whether that was his only diagnosis.

PSW I'd not be at all happy with her from that photo


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## PictusSweetDreams (11 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			If you were happy with the hunt there will be other compassionate licensed slaughtermen (sorry!) 

If you say whereabouts you are we can possibly give you a number. I know two who cover the east side of Cheshire, for example.

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don’t be sorry! I had my old boy done by the hunt as the cost was too high for the vet and cremation as he wasn’t insured (that sounds awful when I read it back) however Tilly is insured so I would have the vet do it.

it’s so heartbreaking even having this conversation, had my first vet been competent I may be telling a different story right now. Time to face reality I think.


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## Equi (11 April 2020)

Don’t get hung up on what ifs, it’s possible it could have went this way anyway. What I will say though is make your decision and make it firmly. I’d be inclined to call and say she’s had a horrible night and you would like to have her put to sleep, not ask what advice they can give about what they would do, that opens the door for them to persuade you to do something else. It’s heartbreaking cause we do sometimes get invested in other people’s threads and I hate when things don’t go well for them  big hugs op.


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## PictusSweetDreams (11 April 2020)

equi said:



			Don’t get hung up on what ifs, it’s possible it could have went this way anyway. What I will say though is make your decision and make it firmly. I’d be inclined to call and say she’s had a horrible night and you would like to have her put to sleep, not ask what advice they can give about what they would do, that opens the door for them to persuade you to do something else. It’s heartbreaking cause we do sometimes get invested in other people’s threads and I hate when things don’t go well for them  big hugs op.
		
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that’s what I’m afraid of, being persuaded to keep going because I don’t want to let her go obviously but it isn’t about what I want now.


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## ycbm (11 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			that’s what I’m afraid of, being persuaded to keep going because I don’t want to let her go obviously but it isn’t about what I want now.
		
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The only way you could be persuaded would be if you were set on the insurance paying for it.

If the vet says no, call a slaughter man. It will cost about £250 

This is hard PSD but you know in your heart what needs to be done. My thoughts are with you.

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## PictusSweetDreams (11 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			The only way you could be persuaded would be if you were set on the insurance paying for it.

If the vet says no, call a slaughter man. It will cost about £250

This is hard PSD but you know in your heart what needs to be done. My thoughts are with you.

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my vet did mention if the sinking worsened then there wouldn’t be any other option but to PTS


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## splashgirl45 (11 April 2020)

so sorry but i think its time.  you just tell your vet what you want done, dont ask him because some vets will keep going much too long IMO....be strong for her and know you are doing the right thing.  i have been through making the decision a few times and although it is not easy you have to think of the horse's quality of life, i have never regretted my decision even though i miss them terribly, i did what was right for them and i think you know in your heart what is right for your girl.  hope you manage to get this sorted quickly,  hugs xxx


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## chaps89 (12 April 2020)

I've been reading this thread but not commented yet.
And I hate to be commenting now on a practical note - please check your insurance documents (as they aren't likely to be open on Easter Sunday for a call) about them covering the cost of pts. 
To my knowledge I'm not aware of any insurers who cover that actual cost. Although if your vet says the horse meets the BEVA guidelines for euthanasia (essentially that nothing else can be done and it's inhumane to keep the horse alive any longer) then they may well pay out for the value of your horse and possibly something towards the disposal costs dependant upon your policy.
I'm sorry to be so black and white in such an awful situation, I just didn't want you to have a shock when the paperwork side of things is sorted.
I'm afraid to say I wouldn't be postponing making the final call either. Better for her to go whilst she still has a little sparkle left than when she reaches absolute agony when her pedal bone penetrates the sole, which doesn't sound far off.
The other thing I would consider is quality of life if she were to recover. Say she did pull through from this. It feels unlikely she'd be able to live a normal life out in the field. 
So unless you are lucky enough to have a grass free track livery nearby, you'd potentially either have to send her away or accept she's likely to have to be stabled alot with an awful lot of micro-management going forwards to prevent a re-occurrence. 
And that is hard work and expensive for you and not likely to be alot of fun for her.
I really feel for you, you've tried so hard and I'm sorry it's come to this.


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## MuffettMischief (12 April 2020)

God I really feel for you. I have to agree that PTS is the best and kindest option now for your horse and yourself, you have tried so hard so don't feel like you haven't given your horse a chance. Its so difficult in situations like this when they still have their bit of spark. Hugs xxx


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## HashRouge (12 April 2020)

I've only just caught up with this thread and I just wanted to say Pictus how sorry I am for everything that you and your lovely horse are going through xx


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## PictusSweetDreams (12 April 2020)

Thank you all for your lovely comments and support. I am having discussions with the vet and farrier today.

here’s an up to date photo of her bad food, what do you make of it? It looks pretty poor to me but I don’t know what I’m looking at. What I’m trying to say is when it looks like this, is there any glimmer of hope for a recovery? Not that i think there is much point of hoping now because as I say I know in my heart the answer hence the discussions with vet and farrier. Does this look like a foot that is going to have sole penetration if I continue trying? Again I’m not saying I am going to continue, it’s more for information purposes that I ask.


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## Equi (12 April 2020)

There is nothing there anymore. I don’t know if it’s just the photo but there is a lot of wall there and that may just be because there is so little sole left. I’m afraid I’d be very worried about her entire hoof falling off.


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## be positive (12 April 2020)

I think the question you have to ask is what  'recovery', if it does happen, will mean for her, if it is months more box rest, a life with no turnout, no riding and continual worrying for you then you know the answer that is kindest for her and also yourself.

That foot does not look very stable to me but I am not a vet or farrier, the one thing that my NF had going for him was his soles were so thick and tough the pedal bone was stable, it went against him from the abscess point of view as the horn quality did not make it easy to get the abscess moved, it also allowed him to get out and back to a relatively normal life fairly quickly, he had about 4 months of full box rest but once recovered made very fast progress as his feet were so tough,  for me he was a constant cause of concern for the rest of his life, when he finally went down with it again I called it a day rather than go through more months of box rest, it was a very hard decision, the vet thought he still looked very bright but when the injection went in he went very quickly and peacefully and we knew the time was right, it is never easy to make that call but knowing you have done everything you can does make it easier to live with.


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## Errin Paddywack (12 April 2020)

You have a terrible decision to make but please don't put it off any longer.  Your mare's face in that picture shows a horse in a lot of pain.  Speaking as one who has left the decision much too late in the past and bitterly regretted it, get it done as soon as you can.  It is one of the hardest decisions to make but also one of the best.  Look after yourself, you have all my sympathy.


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## ycbm (12 April 2020)

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## PictusSweetDreams (12 April 2020)

I’ve just had a chat with the vet and farrier together on a group call.

long story short, they have both agreed that the imprint shoes should at least be given a go. They said there’s nothing to lose by trying them and we will know in a very short period of time if they are going to help her or not. I feel fed up by it if I’m honest and as much as I want to put her out of pain, I also want to put my trust in the professionals who know what they’re dealing with, if these shoes don’t improve her condition then she will be pts. My farrier said even if the vet suggests something else after this he will advise against it as he doesn’t feel there is another other option now. He said the shoes are not going to put her in a more compromising position and he’s also said he’s not concerned at this point about sole penetration. I feel they’ve both been fantastic up to now and that I should perhaps try this one last effort.

my mind is a bit numb at the minute with it all, I fail to see how imprints will improve her at this point but at least I know I will have tried absolutely everything possible for her.


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## FFAQ (12 April 2020)

When I was training one of my case studies was a very bad laminitis case whose feet looked worse than that (but the laminitis may have gone on for longer).  The vet had to nerve block for me to trim as the horse was in such pain that she couldn't pick her feet up.  From the beginning we agreed a 2 week limit.  If the horse wasn't more comfortable within 2 weeks of the first trim we would pts.  She'd had glue-ons previously but in her case they made her less comfortable.  We were expecting to see bone from the x-rays, and if that had been the case she would've been pts there and then.  However, the bone hadn't come through and thankfully the horse was immediately more comfortable after the trim and was then put in hoof boots with therapeutic pads 24/7.
This mare was never sound enough to ride again but did live for another 4 or 5 years before an injury ended her life.
I am absolutely not saying either way what you should do OP.  My case study was right on the edge of ethical in my opinion.  Sometimes if there is solar penetration it can be recovered but the question is whether it is ethical to do so.  I honestly don't know what I would do if it was one of mine.  All I can say is my thoughts are with you and it is clear you would do anything for your beautiful horse.  Whatever you decide you can definitely be sure you've done everything you can!  Massive hugs to you xxx


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## Dusty 123 (12 April 2020)

To be honest to me it sounds like the vet and farrier are trying to get money out of you . To be honest her foot looks very damaged to me I say imprints probably would not work.


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## Amymay (12 April 2020)

Dusty 123 said:



			To be honest to me it sounds like the vet and farrier are trying to get money out of you . To be honest her foot looks very damaged to me I say imprintsprobably would not work.
		
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I think that’s very unfair, and pretty much uncalled for under the circumstances!


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## PictusSweetDreams (12 April 2020)

Dusty 123 said:



			To be honest to me it sounds like the vet and farrier are trying to get money out of you . To be honest her foot looks very damaged to me I say imprints probably would not work.
		
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my farrier isn’t benefitting at all from carrying on as I’m paying for the cost of the imprint shoes and he’s even providing me with a receipt to show how much they are costing. As for the vet, they may well be “getting money out of me” but that’s what they would do regardless as they want to try everything. If that was the case, they wouldn’t be saying the imprint shoes are the last thing to try as there are other options but they aren’t willing to put her through it.

however I do agree that the imprints probably won’t work, but at this stage I have nothing to lose. The vet and farrier will know in a short space of time if they are going to work or not


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## Dusty 123 (12 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			my farrier isn’t benefitting at all from carrying on as I’m paying for the cost of the imprint shoes and he’s even providing me with a receipt to show how much they are costing. As for the vet, they may well be “getting money out of me” but that’s what they would do regardless as they want to try everything. If that was the case, they wouldn’t be saying the imprint shoes are the last thing to try as there are other options but they aren’t willing to put her through it.

however I do agree that the imprints probably won’t work, but at this stage I have nothing to lose. The vet and farrier will know in a short space of time if they are going to work or not
		
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Sorry for being rude I probably should have read over it before I posted it


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## PictusSweetDreams (12 April 2020)

Dusty 123 said:



			Sorry for being rude I probably should have read over it before I posted it
		
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you wasn’t being rude you just shared your opinion. It’s easy to see they could be making money and it’s a worry I have at the back of my mind but for now I do feel like that they are just wanting to try the imprints as there’s nothing to lose and it’s the last realistic thing we can try.

However I’m not at all hopeful they will make any difference at this point


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## be positive (12 April 2020)

I think this vet and farrier are possibly trying a bit harder because they were not involved at the start, they may be feeling you were let down badly by the other professional and want to ensure they are not missing out anything that can be done, there could be some personal reward but it will be more about trying to right the wrong than for financial gain, they should not be trying to prove the other vet was wrong but to show there are good vets out there who will do their absolute best.


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## PictusSweetDreams (12 April 2020)

be positive said:



			I think this vet and farrier are possibly trying a bit harder because they were not involved at the start, they may be feeling you were let down badly by the other professional and want to ensure they are not missing out anything that can be done, there could be some personal reward but it will be more about trying to right the wrong than for financial gain, they should not be trying to prove the other vet was wrong but to show there are good vets out there who will do their absolute best.
		
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I fully agree. My vet is one of the best in the area and he takes particularly keen interest in lameness and feet. They’ve both been fantastic up to now I cannot daily then which is why I’m trusting them and giving the imprints a go. My farrier reckons you see improvement immediately in a lot of cases


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## holeymoley (12 April 2020)

Looking back at the photos of the sole- the red marks are the seroma. This is where the pedal bone is pressing on the sole. There’s very few mm’s between that space and the bone.  I also can’t decide whether or not her bars are too long- has she had a lot off the heel? This factor could improve her comfort levels. However, if you feel that the imprints won’t work I’d personally let her go while she still has some spark. The full body photo of her looks like she’s holding herself in pain. It’s a truely awful situation to be in and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone xx


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## PictusSweetDreams (12 April 2020)

holeymoley said:



			Looking back at the photos of the sole- the red marks are the seroma. This is where the pedal bone is pressing on the sole. There’s very few mm’s between that space and the bone.  I also can’t decide whether or not her bars are too long- has she had a lot off the heel? This factor could improve her comfort levels. However, if you feel that the imprints won’t work I’d personally let her go while she still has some spark. The full body photo of her looks like she’s holding herself in pain. It’s a truely awful situation to be in and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone xx
		
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this foots due a trim this week so I’m not sure if it’s had significant growth but he did lower them last trim.

obviously I’m not expert so I don’t know if the shoes will work but I just can’t see it t this point. As you say the soles are so thin now so I fed this won’t be of benefit to her at all, but it’s worth a shot. Then I’ve done everything I possibly can and I can be at peace with that when she does go. She is in pain though for sure, her ulcers have probably returned too. Here you can see how tucked in she is (this was last week) bless her heart.


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## Mule (12 April 2020)

She has such a pretty face.


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## Auslander (12 April 2020)

It's a tricky one to respond to, as I don't want to give you false hope - but imprints made a world of difference to the EMS mare here that was nearly PTS a few years back as she had such severe laminitis. Fitting Imprints and Equipak CS made her loads more comfortable, so we could treat the EMS and sort out her weight without her being in agony


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## PictusSweetDreams (12 April 2020)

Auslander said:



			It's a tricky one to respond to, as I don't want to give you false hope - but imprints made a world of difference to the EMS mare here that was nearly PTS a few years back as she had such severe laminitis. Fitting Imprints and Equipak CS made her loads more comfortable, so we could treat the EMS and sort out her weight without her being in agony
		
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we’re treating the EMS at the moment with metformin and you can see she’s not massively overweight so it’s a bit of a pain. I just think the sinking is the worst part as opposed to rotation, but again it’s a last chance effort


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## Spotherisk (12 April 2020)

Mine had Imprints, he had sunk on all four.  Vet and farrier worked together and after three months of box rest and two sets of Imprints he did come right.  However, he was never normal again and the laminitis remained a chronic niggling background issue, and he was pts six weeks ago.  
The Imprints made an immediate effect.  They were fitted, farrier said lead him out of the stable.  Tinner hesitated, he thought it was going to hurt.  He stepped out and his whole demeanour changed, he was so happy and bright.

OP whatever happens, whatever you decide, I wish you all the best, you are right, it is a terrible emotional rollercoaster...


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## PictusSweetDreams (12 April 2020)

Spotherisk said:



			Mine had Imprints, he had sunk on all four.  Vet and farrier worked together and after three months of box rest and two sets of Imprints he did come right.  However, he was never normal again and the laminitis remained a chronic niggling background issue, and he was pts six weeks ago.
The Imprints made an immediate effect.  They were fitted, farrier said lead him out of the stable.  Tinner hesitated, he thought it was going to hurt.  He stepped out and his whole demeanour changed, he was so happy and bright.

OP whatever happens, whatever you decide, I wish you all the best, you are right, it is a terrible emotional rollercoaster...
		
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she’s relatively bright in herself. Better than she has been anyway, I have to bring her out to change the dressings for the resection and she will come out although she hesitates. I’ve a feeling that she will go the same as after the resection - fine for a few days and then downhill. One can only hope it’s some miracle cure and she recovers well


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## Ceriann (12 April 2020)

I have no advice but just to say I really feel for you.  You are doing your absolute best for her and listening to the vet and farrier who you clearly trust (and have all the information and have seen her for themselves) is understandable.  I will be thinking of you both ad you continue to go through this.


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## fusspot (12 April 2020)

Oh my....I so feel for you as is almost exactly the same as I went through with my boy.Its the hardest time but I will promise you this....you will know when the time is right. Mine had ulcers previously and then ended up EMS.I will say that the Metformin only works for a certain amount of time,mine was 2 years and the day I let him go,the vet said that I physically could not get him any lighter but he still had some fat pads.Personally over 35 years I have had 3 of my own put to sleep and you just know when the time is right.All 3 of mine lost that light in their eye and it was like they were there in body but the spirit had left them.My boy last year was very up and down like yours,one day,all morning he was standing at his chains at the front of his stable,but you could just see that he was permanently lifting one foot or transferring his weight all the time in front.He lay down over lunch and was still down at 3pm which was not him.I called the vets straight away and told them that I needed somebody to do a PTS.The Vet was here in 30 mins and gave him a good look over.She confirmed that his pulses were pounding in both fronts and had now also gone into the backs-he wasn’t rocking at all,was just transferring weight all the time. I asked if I was doing the right thing by letting him go and she said definetly yes and that I was being a responsible owner to let him free from his suffering.She rang the practice and they organised the collection so I didn’t have to deal with any of it.He was let go 15 mins later and went peacefully but the vet did say that his system was starting to shut down as he went so quickly.Always remember that you are the owner and you have to follow your gut instinct as you are with the horse daily.Its always better a day too early than a day too late.If you do need to go down that route, the cost is not actually too bad.My Sons Pony was put down on New Years Day Morning and obviously couldn’t get hold of the Insurance company.I rang the next day and told them it was done for Ponies welfare and as was an Insurance case because of the cause they covered all bar about £100 for PTS and Disposal.Please be assured, you will know and if you decide to let yours go,people would understand.You have gone above and beyond to help yours.X


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## HappyHorses:) (12 April 2020)

I’ve just read the whole thread. Brought a tear to my eye.
 I can’t offer any advice but just want to say no matter what happens you sound like an amazing owner. Don’t ever doubt that. Stay strong and enjoy every second you have with that gorgeous mare.


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## SEL (12 April 2020)

You're in a really difficult and very sad position and I feel for you x


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## throughtheforest (13 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			The digestive issues is another thing I am faced with. She had grade 4 ulcers last summer and recovered well but I think this may have had something to do with the EMS/laminitis because before these I never had a single worry with her over anything. I’m 99.9% certain that the ulcers are back, she’s lost condition understandably and she’s very tucked in.

the thing I’m struggling with is having that conversation, where do I even start? Do I just outright say I think enough is enough? Do I just ask what their view is? I fear I won’t get the advice I’m desperately seeking if I don’t ask the right question
		
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Hi Op, I thought I should comment because my boy had very similar complications and did make a recovery temporarily after similar sinking and rotation. He was barefoot and eventually as soon as comfortable he was moved too, this worked for him. A fantastic help was the laminitis organisation. I wish to this day that I had kept going with his treatment but I couldn't get the set up to keep him happy, plus manage his EMS, digestion issues and hatred for being stuck in. 
If the imprints are the last resort, I would give it a go. Obviously she's your horse, you know her best but if she's perked up, is eating and meds have been reduced, granted she will likely still be sore yes. Then I would go for it to be honest. My guy did very well on magnesium oxide and due to your mares history of ulcers and the fact Bute can cause digestive upsets I would look at proactively treating her for this or explore with your vet. I feel that finding the balance with this would be the key along with appropriate foot management. Yes the imprints are temporary but should these offer the progress that they could do you will have other options afterwards such as hoofboots and pads. 
Sorry if this isn't want you want to hear but it's a difficult subject that's close to my heart and if I can do anything at all to help further then I would. My inbox is always open to you because I really appreciate the emotional strain this puts on you. 
Furthermore as some inspiration Princefluffykareem often rehab extreme cases of laminitis, yes the causes are often different but it can be done and I would continue to go as far as you can emotionally take whilst taking your mares wellbeing as absolute paramount, she will tell you when it's enough. 
I really sincerely wish you all the luck in the world. Xx


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## splashgirl45 (13 April 2020)

if she is still in so much pain could you increase the pain relief ?  seems silly to decrease it if she is not weight bearing on one foot.  sorry if i have got the wrong info but if she was mine i would pump the pain relief up as far as possible so she isnt so uncomfortable when the farrier fits the imprints....(if you are giving them a try). as i said before i would have PTS a long time ago but obviously not everyone feels the same as i do...good luck and hope she can have a better quality of life soon.


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## holeymoley (13 April 2020)

If you’re looking for other experiences and are on Facebook check ‘laminitis chit chat’ and the other page ‘hoof care and rehabilitation’ x


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 April 2020)

Hi all 

imprints have gone on today and already I can see she is a lot more comfortable and happy to bare weight now. The farrier was really please with the instant change (once she realised it wasn’t going to be so bad). Fingers crossed it’s a step in the right direction now but then again she did feel a lot better when she had the resection but then went downhill rapidly so I won’t get too complacent yet


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## splashgirl45 (14 April 2020)

good news, fingers crossed for her


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## holandmac (14 April 2020)

Been following your thread - hope that your girl is okay. Can tell that she is deeply loved and that you have left no stone unturned in trying to help her. Fingers crossed for the both of you


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## Ceriann (14 April 2020)

Really pleased to hear that - you can only take each day as it comes.  You seem to be dealing with all of this in such a considered way - no mean feat when you clearly adore her.  Really am rooting for you both.


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## vmac66 (14 April 2020)

Have everything crossed for you that the imprints work and put your girl on the road to recovery.


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## meleeka (14 April 2020)

Well that’s it.  You’ve done absolutely everything you can for her.  You don’t have to wonder if there’s anything else now at least.   I’m keeping everything crossed that she continues in the right direction. x


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## holeymoley (14 April 2020)

I was thinking about her getting imprints this morning while I was mucking out. I’m glad she seems more comfortable. I hope she continues to progress 🤞🏻 x


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## Equi (14 April 2020)

I was going to search for the thread and ask how things went. It’s funny how much this little fighter is on our minds!


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 April 2020)

Thank you all so much you’re so supportive and I love how you think of Tilly!

I honestly don’t know if I would have got this far without the support I’ve had. I just hope she doesn’t get too comfortable and starts pratting around!

here she is showing off her new shoes


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## ester (14 April 2020)

ready to hit the dancefloor  pleased they have increased her comfort levels.


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## Nari (14 April 2020)

From my experience while sinking can't be reversed the sole can thicken underneath and if you can get that to happen then everything improves. My lad very nearly came through the sole and sole depth was almost non-existent, years later he has decent sole depth and is in regular light work which is far more than any of us dared dream of at the time. I won't lie, it was a very long road and he's still treated with kid gloves, though watching him tear round the field on rock hard ground I sometimes wonder why I'm careful! Rotation is kept aligned by a 4 weekly shoeing cycle and incredible farrier, and he has pads and putty on to protect and support him. For a while we used Metformin, but as others have said it does become less effective, personally I found NoMetSyn works better for us.

There are no promises, and however good your team and skilful your nursing there's a lot of luck involved too. I'm not even sure if I should be giving you hope, but you sound like a realistic person so I thought I would post. I'll keep everything crossed for you and Tilly x


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## Pinkvboots (14 April 2020)

Glad it all went well she is definitely standing better than the previous photo's bless her, fingers crossed this works


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## Equi (14 April 2020)

Look at her ickle face. Fingers crossed this finally helps things improve.


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 April 2020)

Nari said:



			From my experience while sinking can't be reversed the sole can thicken underneath and if you can get that to happen then everything improves. My lad very nearly came through the sole and sole depth was almost non-existent, years later he has decent sole depth and is in regular light work which is far more than any of us dared dream of at the time. I won't lie, it was a very long road and he's still treated with kid gloves, though watching him tear round the field on rock hard ground I sometimes wonder why I'm careful! Rotation is kept aligned by a 4 weekly shoeing cycle and incredible farrier, and he has pads and putty on to protect and support him. For a while we used Metformin, but as others have said it does become less effective, personally I found NoMetSyn works better for us.

There are no promises, and however good your team and skilful your nursing there's a lot of luck involved too. I'm not even sure if I should be giving you hope, but you sound like a realistic person so I thought I would post. I'll keep everything crossed for you and Tilly x
		
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thank you so much that’s really encouraging. As long as she is happy and as comfortable as I can make her then I’m happy, we have facilities on my yard for laminitic ponies which enables them to be able to go out turnout wise so I’m very lucky. 



equi said:



			Look at her ickle face. Fingers crossed this finally helps things improve.
		
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she’s adorable isn’t she haha I am biased but that’s the face that keeps telling me to not give up. Everyone has said I will know when it’s time to let her go and that time isn’t just yet. I know a lot have said they would have let her go before now which I understand their reasonings why but I just had to try as much as I could humanly do. We’re still early days yet but it’s all about baby steps


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## splashgirl45 (14 April 2020)

very pleased for you that she is more comfortable,  looks promising


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## [139672] (14 April 2020)

keeping everything crossed for you and your gorgeous mare xx


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## PictusSweetDreams (15 April 2020)

Thank you everyone.

those who have used imprints, how soon do you notice they are having an impact? I know it’s early days yet but I have been to the yard this morning and she isn’t weight baring on that worse leg again but I’m assuming it’s too soon to see any kind of improvement


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## Ceriann (16 April 2020)

How is she today?  Hopefully some further improvement and relief for her.


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## alibali (16 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Thank you everyone.

those who have used imprints, how soon do you notice they are having an impact? I know it’s early days yet but I have been to the yard this morning and she isn’t weight baring on that worse leg again but I’m assuming it’s too soon to see any kind of improvement
		
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I'm sorry to hear that the initial improvement has been lost and she is non weight bearing again ☹️ Did you discuss this with your vet? What was their take on it? I hope she is more comfortable today. It's very difficult, such an emotional rollercoaster of improvement and then step backwards.


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## ycbm (17 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Thank you everyone.

those who have used imprints, how soon do you notice they are having an impact? I know it’s early days yet but I have been to the yard this morning and she isn’t weight baring on that worse leg again but I’m assuming it’s too soon to see any kind of improvement
		
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I'm really sorry PSD but she never was weight bearing on it, if the picture you posted with them on was representative of how she was normally. She was less obvious about it, but she still isn't standing on that fore leg. I didn't comment at the time because I didn't want to upset you.

I'm really, really reluctant to write this but I feel I have to. Even if she recovers her future life is likely to be no life for a horse to live. And there is a limit, which you don't want to reach, to the length of time the other foot can hold up under the strain of carrying all the weight by itself.  If she was mine I would put her out of her pain. 

.


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## PictusSweetDreams (17 April 2020)

Hi 

she is so much better today. The day after she had them fitted she was in pain but my farrier and vet both said it could have just been from her being messed with and the shoes going on. She’s improving each day albeit slowly but I can see a huge difference in her. She’s pottering around her stable willingly, she’s happy to put her weight on both feet and even rest her hind feet now. She’s back to being her usual cheeky self, she whinnies on my arrival and even for her feeds with her meds in! I know she isn’t totally out of the woods yet and I’ve been told to take it each day as it comes but the improvement in such a short space of time is phenomenal


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## ycbm (17 April 2020)

That is good to read.

.


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## WandaMare (17 April 2020)

Thats great to hear, wishing her continued good progress


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## holeymoley (17 April 2020)

Resting a hind leg was a total achievement for me. As was offering/shifting weight to pick up hooves. Great news!


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## meleeka (17 April 2020)

Good news


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## PictusSweetDreams (17 April 2020)

holeymoley said:



			Resting a hind leg was a total achievement for me. As was offering/shifting weight to pick up hooves. Great news!
		
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I never thought it would be so nice to see the resting of a back leg!


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## vmac66 (17 April 2020)

Great news.


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## Jeni the dragon (17 April 2020)

Lovely news.


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## Spotherisk (17 April 2020)

Delighted with your news.


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## Ceriann (17 April 2020)

So good to hear.  Lovely to hear some positive news.


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## throughtheforest (18 April 2020)

Fantastic to read how she's doing much better. Fingers crossed she continues to improve.


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## Fragglerock (18 April 2020)

I keep checking this thread to see how she is getting on. I hope she is OK today.


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## Yeomans (21 April 2020)

How are you doing, hope she is doing OK


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## PictusSweetDreams (21 April 2020)

Hello

we are 1 week post imprint shoes today. I won’t lie, she isn’t doing amazingly. I had expected quite a lot of improvement given how good the reviews are for the imprint shoes and a lot of people have had success from them with almost immediate relief for the horse.

I am now in serious discussions with my farrier about what do next. She would be due to have a new set put on in 2 weeks as the vet doesn’t want her going any longer than 3 weeks without a fresh set. She just isn’t as comfortable as I’d hoped, I’m not sure if it’s still too early to see any kind of improvement given it’s only been a week. She’s laying down a lot but she does get up when I arrive (I know she’s down if her head isn’t over the door when I pull up). Soon as she hears me park outside the stable she does get up, I had a look at her soles and given the fact I’m no farrier or vet I’m not sure if I’m even right to be concerned but Regardless I am anyway. I’ll try to attach photos, have sent my farrier a video of her attempting to move in the stable today and awaiting his response.

the outcome doesn’t seem hopeful at this stage now, as I say I’m in discussions about what to do next. I’m just hoping my vet doesn’t suggest we whack her pain relief up again and give her more time because at this point now I feel I am being cruel.

it’s such an emotional rollercoaster, I’ve done everything I can now. Sorry I’m rambling a bit, I’m not really sure what to be saying at this point. I feel like I’ve hit a brick wall. 

Sorry the picture quality isn’t the best - it’s harder than I thought to get a photo of a foot! However, I think what I’m seeing, the rest of you will also see. I’ll let you guys have a look and let me know what you think.


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## ester (21 April 2020)

I'd have expected the improvement in comfort pretty quickly once she had settled from the impact of the messing about to put them on.


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## Nari (21 April 2020)

I won't lie, I think I'd be asking the farrier to come out asap, and if he won't then I'd want the vet. How much bute is she on? If you possibly can I would increase it, she may as well be comfortable while you wait for help.


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## whiteflower (21 April 2020)

I'm sorry for what you and your girl are going through. It's hard to tell from the photos but looks to me like you have a ridge of sole around the apex of the frog ? Has this developed since fitting the imprints ? Definitely worth further discussion with farrier and vet but as an aside I have seen something similar in a very thin soled pony where the bars almost grew down around the frog and was told by farrier it was the foot trying to 'support' the pedal bone by laying down more sole at this point and a positive thing.....I may be seeing it wrong though....I really hope you get some answers soon


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## meleeka (21 April 2020)

whiteflower said:



			I'm sorry for what you and your girl are going through. It's hard to tell from the photos but looks to me like you have a ridge of sole around the apex of the frog ? Has this developed since fitting the imprints ? Definitely worth further discussion with farrier and vet but as an aside I have seen something similar in a very thin soled pony where the bars almost grew down around the frog and was told by farrier it was the foot trying to 'support' the pedal bone by laying down more sole at this point and a positive thing.....I may be seeing it wrong though....I really hope you get some answers soon
		
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I thought the same, although also no expert.  Echo pain relief, what’s she on?  Her feet aren’t going to heal as well if she’s still in a lot of pain, especially if she’s laying down most of the time.  

Have a good chat with farrier and vet and perhaps it’s time to put a firm date on expected improvement?


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## PictusSweetDreams (21 April 2020)

She’s on 3 bute a day and 40 paracetamol.

From my untrained eyes it looked as though the sole is bulging to me quite a bit. I can’t say for sure if it’s happened since the imprints but I’ve certainly noticed it a bit more. The farrier said she’s barely any sole left and this “bulging” or ridge is the pressure from the sinking.


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## ycbm (21 April 2020)

You have a ridge of sole round the apex of the frog which looks to me to be where  the pedal bone is distorting what remains of her sole. That ridge  is the shape and location of the pedal bone. It almost certainly isn't bars growing, because they grow up the sides of the frog not out and round in a big arc like that.  I think that is the pedal bone trying to break through the bottom of her foot. 

I can only repeat what I posted before the imprints went on, that for me,  it's time your horse was put out of her pain. Even if she recovers her life is unlikely to be one worth living, and metformin probably  won't control her for long either. Twice you have been persuaded by experts to carry on against your own judgement and what you felt in your heart.

Please be strong for your lovely  little horse and don't let them do it again. 

.


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## PictusSweetDreams (21 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			You have a ridge of sole round the apex of the frog which looks to me to be where  the pedal bone is distorting what remains of her sole. That ridge  is the shape and location of the pedal bone. It almost certainly isnt bars growing, because they grow up the sides of the frog not out and round in a big arc like that.  I think that is the pedal bone trying to break through the bottom of her foot.

I can only repeat what I posted before the imprints went on, that for me,  it's time your horse was put out of her pain. Even if she recovers her life is unlikely to be one worth living, and metformin probably  won't control her for long either. Twice you have been persuaded by experts to carry on against your own judgement and what you felt in your heart.

Please be strong for your lovely  little horse and don't let them do it again.

.
		
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this is what I thought too but you’ve explained it a lot better thank you! They won’t be doing it again now, enough is enough. My vet is going to be calling me back later this evening to discuss in more detail but I think we all know now that I’ve done everything I can.

I feel the imprints are too little too late for her, am I wrong in saying that they would have caused added pressure to the sole because they only support the from and walls? In my head in makes sense (sorry) because surely if only the hoof wall is being supported then it’s making more of a downward force for the pedal bone? Sorry I hope I’m making sense I can’t explain myself properly


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## Nari (21 April 2020)

If you think it's bulging then you really do need someone out to her straight away, for both your sakes pleas don't wait or be fobbed off that it will wait. Yes you might be wrong, but if you are then a professional opinion will give you peace of mind.

Laying down a lot isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's getting the weight completely off her feet and taking pressure off them, but on that level of pain relief I would be concerned that she still feels the need to.

It's terrifying to deal with, God knows I know that and how sick it can make you feel, but you need to know. Not knowing doesn't make anything go away, it just makes you less capable of making a decision you can live with. Be brave, pick up the phone and insist of a farrier or vet coming round today, or at the very worst first thing tomorrow. (((hugs)))


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## ester (21 April 2020)

I agree it's a pedal bone impression 

PSD the 'support' issue re lamis I find really quite complicated with regards to adding/removing sole pressure/leaving the pedal bone suspended.


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## PictusSweetDreams (21 April 2020)

ester said:



			I agree it's a pedal bone impression

PSD the 'support' issue re lamis I find really quite complicated with regards to adding/removing sole pressure/leaving the pedal bone suspended.
		
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perhaps the less I know the better then! My brain doesn’t cope with complicated information lol

her sole is quite soft and spongey now too which I’ve always been told isn’t a good thing especially at this point.


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## Nari (21 April 2020)

ester said:



			I agree it's a pedal bone impression

PSD the 'support' issue re lamis I find really quite complicated with regards to adding/removing sole pressure/leaving the pedal bone suspended.
		
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I think because it's so complicated there's no one right way and every case has to be treated on it's own needs. One of mine was shod with pads and putty according to x-rays, the other had styrofoams fitted and changed three times a week as he compressed them. Both were in on deep beds to the door and both pulled through despite it being metabolic problems and a lot of movement. We were lucky. The different approaches were because they had different degrees of problems, different levels of acuteness (is that a word?) and were very different people to work with. I truly think there isn't one right way, and every way also needs an awful amount of luck.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 April 2020)

I would concentrate on the quality of life that she can be expected to have long term if she does ever get off boxrest.  Would she be able to live a 'normal' life, with grazing and companions?  If not what are you putting her through all this for?

I have had 2 equines with laminitis - one a Welsh A and the other a Shire.  Looking back, we kept them both too long and then lost them both in the end.  Now, if there wasn't immediate improvement after vet/farrier involvement I would pts.

I am sorry you and your horse have had to go through this, it is a horrible 'emotional rollercoaster' and is most likely to end in making a difficult decision.  Please get your vet out today.


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## splashgirl45 (21 April 2020)

she shouldnt be is so much pain and you should either get stronger pain relief  and/ or let her go now.  she has been in pain for too long and you must be strong for your horse.  just because we can treat doesnt mean we should and i think your vet and farrier dont want to give up but are not seeing her every day like you are.  so sorry that you are in this position but she is your horse, your responsibility and as you know from my previous posts she would never have got this far if she was mine.  hugs xx


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## alibali (21 April 2020)

I'm sorry but I can only echo what others have said, she needs to be released from her pain now. I know you have tried so hard and invested so much both emotionally and financially but sometimes the kindest thing is also the hardest. I'm sorry the outcome wasn't better for you both.


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## Chianti (21 April 2020)

I haven't commented for a while on your poor pony but have been following. I really feel if she isn't at least comfortable on three bute and that number of paracetamol a day then you have to say that enough is enough. I know it's the worst thing to do but as owners we have to do it. You have done everything that you could for her but you need to have a very honest discussion with your vet and ask what the chances are of her realistically becoming sound enough to lead a good life and how long would this take given that she's already done considerable box rest.


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## View (21 April 2020)

Oh PSD, so sorry to hear this update.

I know it's easy for me at this distance to say let her go now, but I promise you that there is relief in knowing that they are no longer in pain.

Hugs.


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## PictusSweetDreams (21 April 2020)

Why do we have to love them so much? They make it so hard because we love them so much. Especially when I go to the yard and see her looking better, throwing her head round whinnying and standing absolutely fine. Urgh


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## chaps89 (21 April 2020)

It's because we love them that we can do this final act of kindness for them. 
It's hard, so hard, but it's a privilege to have them in our lives and to be able to prevent them suffering.
No-one could say you haven't tried, but please allow her the dignity of going whilst she still has some spark to her, that is alot of pain relief and she still sounds like she's showing signs of pain.


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## ycbm (21 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Why do we have to love them so much? They make it so hard because we love them so much. Especially when I go to the yard and see her looking better, throwing her head round whinnying and standing absolutely fine. Urgh 

View attachment 44950

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PSD I'm so sorry, but that isn't a picture of a horse standing fine. You are so used to seeing her standing in acute pain that it looks fine to you. To me, that is a picture of a horse sore in all four feet temprorarily distracted from pain by a bucket of food. 

.


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## ester (21 April 2020)

I'm with ycbm on that


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## PictusSweetDreams (21 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			PSD I'm so sorry, but that isn't a picture of a horse standing fine. You are so used to seeing her standing in acute pain that it looks fine to you. To me, that is a picture of a horse sore in all four feet temprorarily distracted from pain by a bucket of food.

.
		
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you’re very right there. To me she looks fine but this is in comparison to what I’ve seen, my vet is calling me first thing tomorrow morning


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## ycbm (21 April 2020)

I have to pat you on the back PSD, your reaction to every comment on this thread has been that of an A1 class owner.

When you talk to your vet tomorrow, ask yourself, and them, what her future, at best, is likely ever to be. It is very unlikely to be grazing happily in a green field. 

.


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## PictusSweetDreams (21 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			I gave to pat you on the back PSD, your reaction to every comment on this thread has been that of an A1 class owner.

When you talk to your vet tomorrow, ask yourself, and then, what her future, at best, is likely ever to be. It is very unlikely to be grazing happily in a green field.

.
		
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Thank you. It’s been a huge learning curve and I appreciate every single comment that everyone has made.

From what I can gather, the fact that EMS is the cause it’s very likely it will return and there’s slim chance of her ever being able to graze happily with her pals. To me that is not a life for a horse, not for her anyway. She’s only “happy” to be on box rest because she can’t really move. Had she been in full health she would definitely be protesting about being in right now! She loves being out (to the point I can’t catch her!), she loves being ridden and she loves jumping and hunting. None of which will probably ever happen again and I only think it’s fair that I let her go now whilst she still has a bit of spirit than get to a point where she’s desperately pleading to go.


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## Mule (21 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Thank you. It’s been a huge learning curve and I appreciate every single comment that everyone has made.

From what I can gather, the fact that EMS is the cause it’s very likely it will return and there’s slim chance of her ever being able to graze happily with her pals. To me they is not a life for a horse, not for her anyway. She’s only “happy” to be on box rest because she can’t really move. Had she been in full health she would definitely be protesting about being in right now! She loves being out (to the point I can’t catch her!), she loves being ridden and she loves jumping and hunting. None of which will probably ever happen again and I only think it’s fair that I let her go now whilst she still has a bit of spirit than get to a point where she’s desperately pleading to go.
		
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I'm so sorry, I'll be thinking of you both. She's lucky to have you xx


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## Nari (21 April 2020)

She's one lucky horse x


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## OldNag (21 April 2020)

I am so sorry to see your update.  I've had to go through losing 2 to laminitis and it's bloody hard.  But in the end the decision had to be made, for the ponies' sakes.  

Your mare is lucky to have such a dedicated and caring owner. You really couldn't have done anything more to help her, and I hope you will take some comfort from that xx


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## alibali (21 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Thank you. It’s been a huge learning curve and I appreciate every single comment that everyone has made.

From what I can gather, the fact that EMS is the cause it’s very likely it will return and there’s slim chance of her ever being able to graze happily with her pals. To me they is not a life for a horse, not for her anyway. She’s only “happy” to be on box rest because she can’t really move. Had she been in full health she would definitely be protesting about being in right now! She loves being out (to the point I can’t catch her!), she loves being ridden and she loves jumping and hunting. None of which will probably ever happen again and I only think it’s fair that I let her go now whilst she still has a bit of spirit than get to a point where she’s desperately pleading to go.
		
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I can't bring myself to 'like' your post but completely agree with everything you say. You have been completely dedicated to her welfare, at the end of the day quality of life is much more important than quantity especially for animals which have no concept of tomorrow and only know the here and now. There are many worse fates for a horse than being gently put to sleep with love and kindness.


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## ycbm (21 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			I only think it’s fair that I let her go now whilst she still has a bit of spirit than get to a point where she’s desperately pleading to go.
		
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What a lovely person you are. Focus on this when you talk to your vet tomorrow.

.


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## vmac66 (21 April 2020)

She is so lucky to have you and be so much loved. You've done everything you possibly can for her. Will be thinking of you tomorrow when you speak to your vet.


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## LeneHorse (21 April 2020)

I've followed your heartbreaking journey but haven't been commented as it brings back painful memories of losing my first horse nearly 20 years ago to laminitis. Like you, the vets wanted to try different things but eventually I couldn't bear to see her suffering any more and she was put to sleep. You sound like a lovely caring owner and I hope all goes well with you  tomorrow, you are doing the right thing.


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## PictusSweetDreams (21 April 2020)

Thank you all so much. Your kind words are so comforting, I will keep you posted as always


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## splashgirl45 (21 April 2020)

its very sad but her quality of life is the most important thing and i think you are right, it is time to make that decision.  if you have made your mind up please dont let your vet prolong it any longer, you have given everything a try and  she is still in pain.  hope you can manage to get all sorted tomorrow.   good luck


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## fusspot (21 April 2020)

Such a hard decision to make...mine was still whinnying at me and I kept thinking that I could see an improvement when deep down I knew the time had come.I lost 2 in a year to laminitis,both caused by underlying health conditions which would only ever be controlled by medication and never curable or with a decent quality of life. I tried absolutely everything for them both and that is the one thing I can take from it all. I was devastated but can honestly say that once the total exhaustion that hit me for about a week after had subsided,I actually felt a sense of relief that they were no longer in pain and I had done the right thing as a sensible owner.I feel every pain and thought you are going through as only a year since I lost my boy and still very raw.One thing is for sure, if you do let her go soon,you will have everybody’s backing and thoughts on here.Will be thinking of you.x


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## View (22 April 2020)

PSD, I’m just off too work now, but I’ll be thinking of you.


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## Yeomans (22 April 2020)

Just caught up with the thread from yesterday and reading through I am sitting here with tears down my face really feeling for you today.  You are one special owner and we can all see how much you love your horse and will be doing what you think best.  You have had good advice from the people on here that are all feeling your pain.  Will be thinking of you today, big hugs.


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## Pearlsasinger (22 April 2020)

I'm sorry that you have been left in this position but please do stay strong for your horse, even if the vet says there is something else to try.  As you say, she wouldn't enjoy life after this, so what would you be 'saving' her for?


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## ITPersonnage (22 April 2020)

What more is there to say ? It's really tough but the more you love them, the harder it is to let them go, but you will feel relief that her pain is over. At least you can stuff her full of nice food beforehand....


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## Ceriann (22 April 2020)

So so sorry - you have tried absolutely everything and battled so hard to help her.  If only all horses had an owner like you.


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## Nari (22 April 2020)

Are you ok?


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## Arzada (22 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			I have to pat you on the back PSD, your reaction to every comment on this thread has been that of an A1 class owner.
		
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The very best of owners. No horse could wish for more. Thinking of you both today.


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## Rosemary28 (22 April 2020)

Big hugs to you PSD. What a lovely caring owner you are, your mare is so lucky to have you.

Thinking of you.


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## Spotherisk (22 April 2020)

Hoping you’re okay PSD.


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## scats (22 April 2020)

Been following this post and I’m so sorry to hear your update.  I’m thinking of you xx


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## ycbm (22 April 2020)

I hope you are OK, PSD. Whatever happened today, please know that we are all thinking of you and wishing you well. 

.


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## misst (22 April 2020)

I am sorry things have not gone well. I know you have tried but I am hoping you have made your decision. She looks truely uncomfortable in the picture and I know you want the best for her but please don't be blinded by your own needs.She is lucky to be loved so much x


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## vmac66 (23 April 2020)

Hope you are ok.


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## FFAQ (23 April 2020)

Thinking of you today xxx


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## holeymoley (23 April 2020)

Gosh I’m so sorry to be reading this, I hadn’t realised there were more updates since I last commented.

I’m absolutely gutted that she’s still not improved. I echo the others that it is still a lot of pain relief to be on now at this stage. I think the likelihood of Her coming right now is very slim. As the others have said even if she does recover she will never live a life like most horses. Laminitis is the worst most awful thing for anyone, horse and owner, to go through and I don’t think I would do it again.

I don’t say it lightly but I think you know yourself what to do xx


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## Ambers Echo (23 April 2020)

I have been following this thread but not commented as I felt I had nothing useful to add. Just wanted to say I am so terribly sorry.Thinking of you. x


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## LadyGascoyne (23 April 2020)

A Herculean effort, and it is so clear how much you love this horse.

You’ve gone above and beyond, a thousand times and, what ever happens, I hope you see how lucky she is to have had you. 

Thinking of you and your beautiful mare.


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## Equi (24 April 2020)

I hope you are okay OP, we don't know whats going on and its not our right to know either way, but i just wanted to let you know we are still thinking of you.


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## ycbm (24 April 2020)

I'd like to add that it doesn't matter what you decided to do, the forum will still support you if you need us.

.


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## splashgirl45 (24 April 2020)

hope you are ok and as ycbm said we will support you  whatever...


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## Nari (26 April 2020)

I've been in touch with PictusSweetDreams and she'd like you all to know that she's ok but needs a bit of time and space, which I'm sure we can all understand. I'm sure she'll be back


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## Amymay (26 April 2020)

Thanks Nari


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## Pinkvboots (26 April 2020)

I have not looked on here for a while because I kind of knew what the outcome would be

I am so sorry you will feel shit for a while I know I did but you totally did the right thing, laminitis is a horrible horrible condition and it's my worst fear with horses, my mare had ems and cushings I was fighting a loosing battle she would never have been happy being in just like your little horse.

I just hope your looking after yourself you did everything you possibly could for her and have been an amazing horse owner, my heart goes out to you sending you massive hugs xxx


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## SEL (26 April 2020)

oh I am so sorry - you really did try so hard to get her right and its miserable when you can't fix them. Be kind to yourself and remember the good times when she was fit and well. Laminitis is a dreadful disease and takes too many of our beloved horses xx


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## ycbm (26 April 2020)

Nari said:



			I've been in touch with PictusSweetDreams and she'd like you all to know that she's ok but needs a bit of time and space, which I'm sure we can all understand. I'm sure she'll be back 

Click to expand...

Do you know whether she was given hope/reason to carry on , or has called it a day?

No criticism either way, but the condolences may be premature?

.


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## Pinkvboots (26 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			Do you know whether she was given hope/reason to carry on , or has called it a day?

No criticism either way, but the condolences may be premature?

.
		
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After I wrote my post I did kind of think the same! I hope I haven't posted the wring response I deeply apologise if I have


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## Nari (26 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			Do you know whether she was given hope/reason to carry on , or has called it a day?

No criticism either way, but the condolences may be premature?

.
		
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On both farrier and vet advice she's carrying on, but on the understanding that if x-rays show a worsening or she stops being bright then that will be enough.

Apologies if my reply was too vague, all I was really trying to say was that PSD is ok and while she appreciates the support she just needs some time to get her head around things and see how things work out.


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## ycbm (26 April 2020)

Thanks. 

Thinking of you PSD.

.


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## throughtheforest (26 April 2020)

Thinking of you, stay strong which ever way this goes. 
All the best x


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## meleeka (26 April 2020)

Keeping  everything crossed for OP. X


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## PictusSweetDreams (28 April 2020)

Hi everyone.

Thank you for your well wishes and keeping me in your thoughts. As Nari advises she is still here with me at the moment as the vet and farrier would both like to re x ray when the shoes are next due to be done next tuesday  Given that she is bright in herself they said a little more time won’t harm her, however at the minute she isn’t doing well. She is back on more pain relief as the right fore is back to giving her grief.

I understand that most have said to let her go and I am in full agreement, but given they want to just check the inside of the foot before this I am happy to just wait a little longer as  she has been made more comfortable for the time being. I went to the vets yesterday to pick some medication up and had a chat with the vet dealing with her who was very understanding and said it could just be that she is one of those who takes longer to heal.

Long story short we have now all agreed that unless there is significant improvement in the x rays, she will be pts next week. I have also said that unless the improvement is relatively big she will be pts, so if it’s only 1 or 2 degrees then to me that isn’t a great deal given everything we’ve been doing. I have advised them that I am not willing to have her on box rest for a further 6-12 months (vet said this could be how long it takes her to recover) as it’s already been 4 months with no improvement. I’m really shocked the imprints haven’t helped her, I really thought they were going to be the missing link. 

I have spoken with my YO and given her the heads up too, she is being fully supportive of my decision and agrees.

So in a nutshell, unless the outcome of those x rays next week are a huge improvement, it will be the end of the road. I didn’t really want to wait another week however for now she’s comfortable and I would kick myself for not seeing what’s going on under the surface, though I know what the outcome is going to be either way. She’s exhausted as am I, which is why I haven’t posted for a few days. I’m just going to enjoy the next few days with her as much as I can and make them pleasant for her too. It’s so crappy when you try everything, spend thousands and it still doesn’t help them. But I can already feel the relief of knowing she won’t be in pain for much longer.

Again thank you all for your kind words, it really is comforting.


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## meleeka (28 April 2020)

Thanks for updating.  There’s nothing more to add, except to say you are in my thoughts.  You’ve got to be happy with your decision I think or it will torture you, so I absolutely think you are doing the right thing. x


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## ycbm (28 April 2020)

Thank you for the update PSD. You are an owner horses would love to have. 

.


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## PictusSweetDreams (28 April 2020)

Thank you. It’s just really rubbish that we can’t be superheroes and fix them all. She owes me nothing though, she’s the best horse I’ve ever owned. It’s time for me to repay her for everything she’s done for me, I’ve been through a lot since I bought her personally and she’s been there every step of the way. It really sucks but I guess that’s part and parcel of owning these wonderful animals


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## Pearlsasinger (28 April 2020)

Thanks for the update.  I'm sorry that you are both still struggling with this and frankly I am appalled at your vet and farrier.  I am sure they know, as you do, that the x-rays will  not show much, if any, improvement.  It seems that they are treating this as an academic exercise, rather than feeling empathy for you and your horse.  I do understand that it is difficult to stand up to professionals who are determined on a course of action.  I have been there and done that.


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## PictusSweetDreams (28 April 2020)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Thanks for the update.  I'm sorry that you are both still struggling with this and frankly I am appalled at your vet and farrier.  I am sure they know, as you do, that the x-rays will  not show much, if any, improvement.  It seems that they are treating this as an academic exercise, rather than feeling empathy for you and your horse.  I do understand that it is difficult to stand up to professionals who are determined on a course of action.  I have been there and done that.
		
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it is really hard you’re right. Especially when even if they give you the tiniest glimmer of hope, human nature clings to that and you believe that because they are the professionals they must be seeing something you’re not. But they both know where I am at now with my decision and it isn’t one I’ve come to lightly as you all know. I even said to the vet, I know it’s your job to save her but they can’t all be saved which is when I saw a look in his eye that to me meant I was right and he knew this pony can’t be saved.

that being said, the x rays will probably confirm my choice and things will be stopped.


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## Ceriann (28 April 2020)

No owner would want to go through what you are dealing with - you are both in my thoughts.


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## meleeka (28 April 2020)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Thanks for the update.  I'm sorry that you are both still struggling with this and frankly I am appalled at your vet and farrier.  I am sure they know, as you do, that the x-rays will  not show much, if any, improvement.  It seems that they are treating this as an academic exercise, rather than feeling empathy for you and your horse.  I do understand that it is difficult to stand up to professionals who are determined on a course of action.  I have been there and done that.
		
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I don’t think this is helpful or correct and is quite insensitive.

The horse is on additional pain relief and is bright and happy as she can be. She’s in no worse condition than she was 2 months ago. Another few days or a week will make no difference to her at all.   OP has already put so much money and effort into this so I don’t think there’s any harm in getting the evidence she needs to stop trying.   It will make it a lot easier for OP afterwards that she knew she’d exhausted all possibilities.

It’s all very easy to comment when you aren’t looking at the horse in front of you,  just reading on a forum, but the only one who really knows the right thing to do is the OP.  She has a plan and that should be respected.


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## ester (28 April 2020)

Been thinking of you PSD and will continue to do so x nothing more helpful to add.


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## Pearlsasinger (28 April 2020)

meleeka said:



			I don’t think this is helpful or correct and is quite insensitive.

The horse is on additional pain relief and is bright and happy as she can be. She’s in no worse condition than she was 2 months ago. Another few days or a week will make no difference to her at all.   OP has already put so much money and effort into this so I don’t think there’s any harm in getting the evidence she needs to stop trying.   It will make it a lot easier for OP afterwards that she knew she’d exhausted all possibilities.

It’s all very easy to comment when you aren’t looking at the horse in front of you,  just reading on a forum, but the only one who really knows the right thing to do is the OP.  She has a plan and that should be respected.
		
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I am certainly not going to debate the issue with you on this thread.  Perhaps you posted before you had read OP's reply to me.  However if you feel that you would like to discuss further, please PM me.


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## scats (28 April 2020)

Thinking of you OP xxx


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## vmac66 (28 April 2020)

Thinking of you. Nothing else to add. Xx


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## OldNag (28 April 2020)

I'm sorry to read this PSD. Thinking of you x


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## splashgirl45 (28 April 2020)

i am pleased you have been able to voice your thoughts to the vet and farrier and i really feel for you as it is a very difficult situation.  you are doing everything you can but please dont feel guilty if you decide the end has come,  hope you are coping ok....


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## PictusSweetDreams (28 April 2020)

I’m having a word with the vet in the morning to see if they can x ray her ASAP. I don’t see the point in waiting another week for them to say there’s nothing more that can be done or she’s got worse or whatever and my farrier will have a wasted journey and I’ll have these imprint shoes that I have no use for (at £150 a pop it’s not something I can really afford to do for no reason) Plus she’s going downhill again, so I’ll be on to them first thing to get them out sooner (hopefully tomorrow)


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## ITPersonnage (28 April 2020)

I feel strange about "liking" that sort of news but YKWIM... You are doing everything you can, I'm just so sorry she's gone downhill again. If it's any help I had a couple of weeks of this horrible time, you know you've got to do the deed but you still have to keep turning up & treating them as normal and being your normal self for them when actually you feel c**p, it does stink.


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## PictusSweetDreams (28 April 2020)

I know exactly what you mean don’t worry. It’s really disheartening especially when last week she took herself for a mooch to the outside of her stable and seemed to be improving a lot! Urgh


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## splashgirl45 (28 April 2020)

sorry she is going downhill again, good luck with getting the vet quickly so she can be x rayed and you can make a judgement..


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## ycbm (28 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			I’m having a word with the vet in the morning to see if they can x ray her ASAP. I don’t see the point in waiting another week for them to say there’s nothing more that can be done or she’s got worse or whatever and my farrier will have a wasted journey and I’ll have these imprint shoes that I have no use for (at £150 a pop it’s not something I can really afford to do for no reason) Plus she’s going downhill again, so I’ll be on to them first thing to get them out sooner (hopefully tomorrow)
		
Click to expand...


I completely agree with you, it's unfair for you to be left in limbo like this until next week, even if she could wait. I'm  sorry you have arrived at this point, PSD. Good luck with the conversation tomorrow.

.


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## PictusSweetDreams (28 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			I completely agree with you, it's unfair for you to be left in limbo like this until next week, even if she could wait. I'm  sorry you have arrived at this point, PSD. Good luck with the conversation tomorrow.

.
		
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it isn’t fair on her either, I can see a difference in her and I’m not sure how to explain it. It’s as though my horse has gone and there’s just this horse in front of me existing. It’s the most bizarre feeling and I think this is what people mean when they say “you’ll know”


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## View (28 April 2020)

PSD, I’m sorry she’s gone downhill again.  You have done everything possible, and your love for her shines through. Thinking of you.


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## [139672] (28 April 2020)

So sorry to hear this. Thinking of you and your lovely mare. She could not have wished for a better owner.


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## alibali (28 April 2020)

Just caught up with this PSD, I'm sorry you and your sweet mare are still struggling with this horrible disease. As someone who is also fighting a long term issue in a beloved horse without much hope of success I really feel for how emotionally and physically exhausted you must be. Riding the roller coaster of minor improvements followed by relapses is heart breaking. The mental strain of worrying what you're going to find each morning when you get to the stables is dreadful. Thinking of you, I hope you get a clear resolution tomorrow from the x-rays.


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## PictusSweetDreams (28 April 2020)

alibali said:



			Just caught up with this PSD, I'm sorry you and your sweet mare are still struggling with this horrible disease. As someone who is also fighting a long term issue in a beloved horse without much hope of success I really feel for how emotionally and physically exhausted you must be. Riding the roller coaster of minor improvements followed by relapses is heart breaking. The mental strain of worrying what you're going to find each morning when you get to the stables is dreadful. Thinking of you, I hope you get a clear resolution tomorrow from the x-rays.
		
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im sorry you’re having similar troubles. It truly is heartbreaking and as you say, not knowing what you will face when you get to the stables is just so stressful, if I arrive and her head isn’t over the door the sheer panic that runs through me is just becoming too much now. Thank you


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## alibali (28 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			im sorry you’re having similar troubles. It truly is heartbreaking and as you say, not knowing what you will face when you get to the stables is just so stressful, if I arrive and her head isn’t over the door the sheer panic that runs through me is just becoming too much now. Thank you
		
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Thank you. He is currently (for want of a better way of putting it) in remission and happy in the field. But I still have the fear when I check him twice a day. If it returns again for a fourth time I've already told the vet I won't be treating it and he can live with it until he is no longer comfortable and then will be pts. Thankfully they're in full support of that course of action, it would be a much harder decision if they were less pragmatic. I feel for you being in the situation where your vet isn't supportive of what your gut instinct is telling you hence my hope of a clear resolution for you all tomorrow. I'll be thinking of you


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## vmac66 (28 April 2020)

So sorry to hear she has gone downhill again. Will be thinking of you tomorrow xx


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## deepsoftheavy (28 April 2020)

PSD my horse was on box rest for around 12 months as he basically had to grow a new foot so this would certainly be a realistic time scale were there any hope of a recovery. The fact that she is now in, it seems, more pain says to me that something not good is going on inside that foot. From what I understand actual sinking is irreversible. I remember that whole period as being under a massive black cloud which was always there. You have to follow your heart,( in tandem with your head ) xx


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 April 2020)

deepsoftheavy said:



			PSD my horse was on box rest for around 12 months as he basically had to grow a new foot so this would certainly be a realistic time scale were there any hope of a recovery. The fact that she is now in, it seems, more pain says to me that something not good is going on inside that foot. From what I understand actual sinking is irreversible. I remember that whole period as being under a massive black cloud which was always there. You have to follow your heart,( in tandem with your head ) xx
		
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oh yes don’t get me wrong I know it’s not an overnight thing but the fact we’re on month 4 now and there’s absolutely no sign of improvement bothers me and as you say it sounds as though there’s something more sinister going on inside her foot. My farrier said the sole can thicken again and in effect sort of reverse the sinking however he said she’s a thin soled pony anyway and this is likely why she’s in more pain than perhaps a pony with a thicker sole would be.

I’ll keep you all posted with what happens later today


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 April 2020)

I have spoke to the vet this morning and told them she’s worsened quite significantly, she’s in a lot of pain now more than she has been and enough is enough. They have agreed they will x ray her feet today and then make the call.

I got cross with them in all honesty as the guy I spoke to is obsessed with her having an abscess in that foot (same one who said it a few weeks back) and he thinks this is why she’s gone downhill. I told him straight, he can do the x rays but I have made my mind up and I’d like them to respect my wishes on that. So I’m just waiting for a call back with a time as to when they are doing them, it may sound a bit crazy having x rays done when I’ve made the decision anyway but I feel like I need to see for myself that things have worsened inside her feet just to make my decision indefinite. Hope that makes sense, I feel a little numb at the moment and all this seems very surreal, I had a chat with a livery friend this morning who went through the same with her cob last year and she told me to be absolute with my decision and not let anyone persuade me to prolong it any further. She said it’s heartbreaking letting them go but it’s even more heartbreaking seeing them struggle - which is so right.

so yeah not much of an update unfortunately.


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## ycbm (29 April 2020)

Stick to your guns PSD, even if she was to recover it would be to a life not worth living after months and months of more box rest and stress for you both.

I am annoyed on your behalf about your vet and farrier. Just because things can be done doesn't mean they should be.

Be strong. Thinking of you.

.


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## be positive (29 April 2020)

Sorry she has gone downhill,  remember it is you that makes the decision NOT the vet, don't let them try to make you feel bad as you are thinking of her not yourself, stay strong , thinking of you xx


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			Stick to your guns PSD, even if she was to recover it would be to a life not worth living after months and months of more box rest and stress for you both.

I am annoyed on your behalf about your vet and farrier. Just because things can be done doesn't mean they should be.

Be strong. Thinking of you.

.
		
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exactly my thoughts. There becomes a point where welfare is a concern especially now she is unable to cope with the pain, I’m not prepared to put her through anything else now. I got there this morning and I could see her bed was very disturbed and it looked as though she’s been moving her legs in discomfort overnight which I have told the vet. My farrier has actually supported my decision and said to just keep him posted now with the outcome, I told the vet I know it’s their job to save horses and do whatever they can but there comes a point where they must respect my wishes. My friend I spoke with was angry too, she said who are they to tell me what is to be done with my horse, which I agree with.

this was her this morning, poor thing.


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## ester (29 April 2020)

I suspect current vet is more keen to carry on to try and 'make right' the lack of care from your previous vet. I can understand that but there is a happy medium between not helping and trying to help too much. She's yours, you spend the most time with her, it's your decision.


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 April 2020)

ester said:



			I suspect current vet is more keen to carry on to try and 'make right' the lack of care from your previous vet. I can understand that but there is a happy medium between not helping and trying to help too much. She's yours, you spend the most time with her, it's your decision.
		
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yes I think you’re right there. they’re a fantastic practice and I am eternally grateful for their help however they can’t carry on for the sake of undoing what can’t be undone


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## southerncomfort (29 April 2020)

Really feel for you.  I think a lot of us have experienced a vet in the past that has pushed us to 'just try one more thing' or to wait and see.

It can be very hard going against medical professionals even when you know you are right.

Thinking of you today.


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## HufflyPuffly (29 April 2020)

Sorry it's come to this, I was lucky that the vets agreed and suggested it might be time for Doodle as they felt they had tried everything they could to make her comfortable. I think you're right though, you know when it's time x


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## Chippers1 (29 April 2020)

I've read through the whole thread and haven't commented until now but I really feel for you PSD. I've been through similar with my old pony, he was on box rest for 6 months before showing signs of coming sound. Whilst I did manage to keep him sound for around 7 years after this (plus going back to competing sj and xc which the vet said he'd never do again..) ultimately I look back and his lifestyle was not ideal and although he seemed happy enough I don't think it was fair on him. He had EMS and couldn't have any grass as it would trigger lami instantly. I lost him in 2017 after he started getting lami for no reason (on same management) and I made the difficult decision as he was getting worse and I couldn't put him through more box rest at his age. I'm just rambling a bit but i'm sorry that it's got to this and you are a great owner for helping as much as you can, it's such a horrible disease and having lived through that intense box rest, never knowing what you would find when you get to the yard in the morning I really get how you are feeling. Thinking of you.


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## splashgirl45 (29 April 2020)

i am cross with your vet as well,  they need to listen to you as you see the horse every day and know when she is not right, i can understand why you want the x rays done and i think i would too at this stage.  please keep strong for your horse and remember to look after yourself as you must be very drained.  good luck


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## alibali (29 April 2020)

PSD I completely understand your anger, it's a hard enough decision to come to without the professional making it harder. Up to a point it's great that they're so invested in the outcome and clearly care a lot, however, as you and others have said previously you see her every day, you know her best. In this instance (not always) I would say you as the owner are best placed to say when enough is enough. I have been thinking of you today.


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## Pearlsasinger (29 April 2020)

I am so sorry you haven't got a better outcome but I am sure that you have made the right decision for your horse, who would not be able to live a normal life even if there was a chance of some improvement.  You and your horse have been let down by your professionals, I'm afraid.

Thinking of you.


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 April 2020)

Okay so we have results and they are as expected - she’s a lot worse. My vet seems to think insulin levels are the issue and they need to be brought under control, I’m not sure why they’re saying this now when 3 weeks ago the rotation had improved to 8 degrees in her right and 6 in her left. He said the rotation in the RF is more like 16 degrees as he hadn’t set the angle line properly when I’d taken the picture.

I really really don’t know where my head is at right now in all honesty. I don’t understand why my vet wants to carry on after seeing this?


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## ycbm (29 April 2020)

For her sake and yours have her PTS now, I mean NOW, PSD.

Your vet is on an ego trip to prove he can "save" a horse another vet couldn't.

You don't need him, there are kind and caring people who will come to you this afternoon.

I could weep, you are being so badly let down.

.


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## DabDab (29 April 2020)

Oh wow, I'm so sorry op, it must be heartbreaking to see those. That bone is close to coming through her sole....surely you can't wait and risk her experiencing that awful end to life?

Sending virtual hugs, poor her and poor you xx


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## ester (29 April 2020)

They are terrible xrays which if left much looks make it look like the decision will be taken away from you, your vet and your farrier.
There is a reason this is ongoing and not improving for her but we can't always resolve those reasons.


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## splashgirl45 (29 April 2020)

so sorry,its a bit late for the vet to say insulin levels need to be bought under control, someone should have looked at this issue before.... in your shoes i would PTS as soon as possible as there is significant sinking in both x rays...please stay strong and remember you are the one to make a decision not the vet....hugs xx


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## holeymoley (29 April 2020)

There seems to be quite literally mm’s between the bone coming through the sole.
I’m so sorry this is the outcome xx


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 April 2020)

I’m absolutely baffled at my vet. It’s not
The reaction from him that I expected, the thing is she’s already on metformin and it isn’t bringing her levels down but how does he know this without tests? How can he be certain that’s what’s causing it? I’m just in a bit of state of shock right now if I’m honest. I knew they would be worse results but more to the fact of my vet is happy to continue even when they look like this


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## ycbm (29 April 2020)

I have to ask PSD.

Why are you letting him?

.


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## holeymoley (29 April 2020)

I’m so sorry this is the case. If it was insulin resistance then I’d expect to see it at least to have corrected itself even slightly with the diet she’s been on.

I’d bute up to the max so that she’s as pain free as possible, and give her the biggest bucket of carrots/apples/grass/her favourite food and let her go with that last bit of spark xx


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## Rosemary28 (29 April 2020)

Sending big hugs PSD. Stay strong, your little mare is so lucky to have you xx


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## DabDab (29 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			I’m absolutely baffled at my vet. It’s not
The reaction from him that I expected, the thing is she’s already on metformin and it isn’t bringing her levels down but how does he know this without tests? How can he be certain that’s what’s causing it? I’m just in a bit of state of shock right now if I’m honest. I knew they would be worse results but more to the fact of my vet is happy to continue even when they look like this
		
Click to expand...

I know it's difficult and the vet really isn't helping, but you have to get on the phone again and tell them in no uncertain terms that you want her pts asap. 

The vet isn't the one who may have to go down tomorrow morning and find their beloved horse with bone broken through the sole of her hoof, you are.


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## Pearlsasinger (29 April 2020)

I have to agree with the others. 
 As I think I said before I have had 2 equines pts because of laminitis.  the Section Apony had a resection but was pts eventually, she was a managed laminitic leading a good life with her field companions but got some sheep feed when the wind blew a bag into her field.  The other was a young Shire, which I now think had PPID but it's years ago.  Her pedal bone dropped until it was almost through her sole, farrier was horrified that vet had allowed that to happen.  She was pts then.  It is a horrible decision to have to make but it has to be made in the best interests of the horse.  
You can't let this go on any longer.


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## ycbm (29 April 2020)

PSD I'm sorry if I'm wrong but I'm picking up signs that you are waiting for the vet to tell you its OK to give up. He isn't going to, he has his own agenda and his ego is too invested in "winning".

I'm so sorry, but you need to summon every ounce of your inner strength and make the right decision for her, very soon.

The x rays are truly horrific.

.


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## meleeka (29 April 2020)

So the cause hasn’t been found because she’s still getting worse.  Everything has been tried to try and treat the cause and it hasn’t worked.  If the vet thinks the insulin is too high still what does he propose to do about that?  Wave a magic wand?
I think you need to get your brave pants on and ask the vet to come and pts.  I was one of the people who thought it was worth a shot, but these latest xrays would make me make the call.  I’ve seen worse  but the cause was found and treated  (Cushings) There  is literally nothing else to try


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 April 2020)

meleeka said:



			So the cause hasn’t been found because she’s still getting worse.  Everything has been tried to try and treat the cause and it hasn’t worked.  If the vet thinks the insulin is too high still what does he propose to do about that?  Wave a magic wand?
I think you need to get your brave pants on and ask the vet to come and pts.  I was one of the people who thought it was worth a shot, but these latest xrays would make me make the call.  I’ve seen worse  but the cause was found and treated  (Cushings) There  is literally nothing else to try 

Click to expand...

well she came back positive for EMS but he now thinks the dose isn’t high enough. I’m not really sure how he can decide that’s the case when he hasn’t checked her insulin levels


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			PSD I'm sorry if I'm wrong but I'm picking up signs that you are waiting for the vet to tell you its OK to give up. He isn't going to, he has his own agenda and his ego is too invested in "winning".

I'm so sorry, but you need to summon every ounce of your inner strength and make the right decision for her, very soon.

The x rays are truly horrific.

.
		
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no you’re right that’s what I was hoping would happen. But now I have a totally different view about the vet completely


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## ITPersonnage (29 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			PSD I'm sorry if I'm wrong but I'm picking up signs that you are waiting for the vet to tell you its OK to give up. He isn't going to, he has his own agenda and his ego is too invested in "winning".

I'm so sorry, but you need to summon every ounce of your inner strength and make the right decision for her, very soon.

The x rays are truly horrific.

.
		
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What she said. I'm literally looking at this story unfolding and thinking WTF?


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## Roxylola (29 April 2020)

Not only that, the vet cant recommend pts. If they do and then insurance wont pay out you could sue them. If there are other options they are a bit stuck really they have to keep suggesting how you can treat


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## meleeka (29 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			well she came back positive for EMS but he now thinks the dose isn’t high enough. I’m not really sure how he can decide that’s the case when he hasn’t checked her insulin levels
		
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That could be  correct since there’s only so many things it could be,  but time isn’t on your side here.  He should have put her on the highest dose he dared given how precarious the situation was when you called him.    Somebody said earlier that metformin tends to lose its efficiency over time (I’ve no idea if that’s correct)  and if you can’t lower the insulin enough with diet when she’s on box rest, what hope does she have?


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 April 2020)

Roxylola said:



			Not only that, the vet cant recommend pts. If they do and then insurance wont pay out you could sue them. If there are other options they are a bit stuck really they have to keep suggesting how you can treat
		
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 Is that true? I thought you had to keep going with the vet until they have no options left?


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## Roxylola (29 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Is that true? I thought you had to keep going with the vet until they have no options left?
		
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The vet is really obligated to keep going as long as you want to keep going. You can tell the vet at any point you want to pts and they will but if you want to keep treating they wont say otherwise


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## Equi (29 April 2020)

I’m sorry it’s come to this. I wouldn’t be waiting for the vet to pts at this point. Insurance be dammed. Get a gun out.


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## southerncomfort (29 April 2020)

Those xrays are absolutely horrific.  She must be in absolute agony.

No half decent vet could look at those xrays and not at least suggest PTS as an option. I'm absolutely horrified and disgusted at your vet.

If you struggle to get your view across on the phone, try writing it down before you make the call (I'm sure someone on here could help you with what to say).

I'm so upset on your behalf. Losing a horse in any circumstances is incredibly painful, but to have to fight to end her suffering must be making it a hundred times worse.


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## be positive (29 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Is that true? I thought you had to keep going with the vet until they have no options left?
		
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You may not get an insurance payout, I hope that will have no bearing on your actions, but there is nothing to stop an owner having any horse pts, they may be perfectly healthy and the vet can refuse but having lost a few over the years, some which had treatment options but I was not happy to treat for my own reasons, usually quality of life after treatment, I have never had a vet question my decision.

1 did look at the perky bright pony stood in lush grass and thought it may be too soon but she only told me that after he dropped very quickly and her words were ' he was ready to go, I thought he would fight it he looked so bright'  he was a chronic laminitic that had fought through a bad time, come sound but got it again a few years later and I was not prepared to make him go through another fight so he had an hour on lush grass, hence looking bright and cheeky and went quietly. 

If the vet will not pts I would get the local hunt out as I know them and they are extremely caring, good with the horses and not too bad at dealing with the owner but ideally have your OH there so you can have a proper hug, it is not a good time for social distancing.


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## ycbm (29 April 2020)

Roxylola said:



			The vet is really obligated to keep going as long as you want to keep going. You can tell the vet at any point you want to pts and they will but if you want to keep treating they wont say otherwise
		
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This isn't true Roxylola, sorry. A good vet will tell an owner that the time has come. 

The insurance will pay as long as the vet says it's a welfare issue.

This vet isn't going to. PSD is going to have to forgo the insured value of her pony. Treatment will be covered.

.


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## Roxylola (29 April 2020)

Ycbm, perhaps some will. I think it depends on the owner and how well they know each other. I'm actually pretty confident my own vet would but we have very similar points of view. And I think maybe on how you ask - so what now? Or what do we do next is a very different question from an owner you dont know who has been keen to treat an animal up to now vs do you think it's time? From an owner who you've known for years and emphasises quality of life


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## Amymay (29 April 2020)

Sorry op, but I really hope you’ve made arrangements for her to be put down tomorrow 💕🌈


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## ester (29 April 2020)

Given that the most accurate insulin tests require dextrose/karo syrup feeding do you really want to be doing that with a horse this much on the edge?

If my vet wouldn't do it I'd call someone else.


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## TheMule (29 April 2020)

Thank goodness you listened to your horse and had the x-rays done today not next week. Now you can put her out of her misery in secure knowledge that it was the only option for her rather than always wondering 'what if'


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 April 2020)

ester said:



			Given that the most accurate insulin tests require dextrose/karo syrup feeding do you really want to be doing that with a horse this much on the edge?

If my vet wouldn't do it I'd call someone else.
		
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she’s had that test done a while back when I switched to the new vets.

I had the hunt come take care of my old cob last year and they were fantastic, they will be the option if the vets dont comply. I can’t arrange anything now as they are closed but I have them calling me first call tomorrow morning.


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 April 2020)

I feel very let down by the vets, both that I have used have failed my horse. I’m shocked at how much has changed within her feet in such a short space of time, absolutely nothing has changed with her management I just don’t understand it at all.


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## ycbm (29 April 2020)

You have been very let down.

At some point, PSD, so many laminae have died that the foot just can't cope mechanically with the load. She may have got no worse (or even better) EMS wise, but laminae have probably still been snapping because they are taking too much load.

Its very common in horses with a broken front leg for the foot on the other leg to founder purely because of the strain, no diet issues at all.

Be strong tomorrow, our thoughts will be with you.

.


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## View (29 April 2020)

Oh goodness, stay strong and ensure your girl goes peacefully.  Hugs.


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## Pearlsasinger (29 April 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			I feel very let down by the vets, both that I have used have failed my horse. I’m shocked at how much has changed within her feet in such a short space of time, absolutely nothing has changed with her management I just don’t understand it at all.
		
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Sadly that is the nature of this disease sometimes, especially if there is an underlying cause, which it seems there probably is in your horse's case.   It is very difficult when you are in the middle of it all, hoping against hope that your animal will come right, to take a step back and get an overview, which takes into account what is likely to happen in the future and weigh up the possible quality of life in the months and years ahead.  Vets don't always have that skill either.

I remember asking a vet if I should have a cat pts when I rang to ask about lung x-ray results.  He said 'oh no, not yet we can give her x, y, z'.  We gave her the drugs, she hated it, had to wear a cone to stop her scratching the poorly healing wound that we were trying to get to heal and lived in the bathroom, so that she wasn't upset by the other animals.  3 months later, with no real improvement apparent, I had to have her pts. 
 I have always told myself that I would never allow that situation again.  The vet was one that I had known for years and was a very kind-hearted man who really didn't like to pts any animal if he could avoid it but really he should have answered my question with 'yes' and saved her 3 months of a poor quality of life.  The trouble is that you don't know until you have been in the situation.  My motto now is always 'better a week too soon than a day too late', for the sake of the animal.


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## Chianti (29 April 2020)

As I remember you'd told the vet that when you re x-rayed if there was no improvement you would PTS so I don't see how he can argue now. He should have put that in your pony's notes. If you don't want to make the call is there someone who would do it for you? Your poor pony now needs the only help  that the vet can give and that's to PTS.


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## scats (29 April 2020)

Oh gosh, those X-rays are dreadful, Im so sorry.  I really would be making arrangements to have the horse put to sleep in the morning.

You can tell your vet that you feel you have reached the end of the road and you want to call it a day.  To be honest, any vet worth their salt, would advise putting to sleep based on those X-rays, the history and the level of discomfort the animal is in.
Sometimes you have to stand your ground with a vet, no matter how tough it is.  The pony is yours and you need to act now.  I’m so sorry xx


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## HappyHorses:) (29 April 2020)

Jeeze I really feel for you. Have to say those x-rays tho, really not good. If you look back to the x-rays you had done in February you can see that, bless her, she’s only gotten worse despite all efforts. 
You can tell how much she means to you.


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## Nari (29 April 2020)

Yes the x-rays are bad, but I can see where the vet is coming from because I think a good correcting trim could help. BUT I can't see Tilly to judge how she is or isn't managing, and I'm not a professional just someone who's been through this with her own.

I wouldn't dream of telling PSD what she should do when I can't see things for myself, and I'm not sure I would even then. I will, however, support her whatever she decides because she's in a far better position to make the right choice.


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## splashgirl45 (29 April 2020)

she already has been trimmed, everything has been tried,  its time to call it a day and i really hope PSD  makes the call and doesnt wait for the ok from the vet because they will go on and on trying to treat her and she has been through enough IMO....and so has PSD....


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## fusspot (29 April 2020)

I am so sorry for the position you are now in.My boy went on the Metformin but it was after 2 years of controlling his EMS through diet.Unfortunately you may find as yours had already been dealing with Laminitis for a while before the new vet tested for EMS,sadly too much damage had been done to the feet.The metformin may be doing a bit but almost feet are too far gone sadly.I found that they do lose something about them and do almost become a “shell” standing there-it’s like the light has gone out.With both of mine which I lost to Lami due to Cushings and EMS, I called the vets and said that I needed a vet to come out ASAP to do a PTS due to them being in too much pain.Both were different vets and gave the horse the once over and agreed that it was now becoming a welfare case.My only concern with you calling somebody else who isn’t a vet is that your Insurance may use it as a get out clause as a vet normally has to confirm to them that it is now a welfare case.Only other thing I would do in your position,is to call the Insurance company first thing,explain the situation and ask for somebody to send an email to with the xrays on and see if they now consider this to be a welfare case-if they agree then you have back up to the vet.As long as a vet should always try there best,you as the owner have the right to put a healthy horse to sleep-it’s not there call.Really feel for you and if can help with any advice in anyway please message.Xx


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## View (29 April 2020)

Nari said:



			I wouldn't dream of telling PSD what she should do when I can't see things for myself, and I'm not sure I would even then. I will, however, support her whatever Shebat nine  decides because she's in a far better position to make the right choice.
		
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You’re correct that we haven’t seen the mare, but lots of us have had to make that call. We recognise how hard it can be, particularly when there is a qualified professional offering hope.

PSD, stay strong and continue being your girl’s advocate,  You will know when is the right time and when it is, don’t let yourself be swayed. Hugs.


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 April 2020)

You have all been so kind and supportive. I want to thank each and every one of you who have taken the time to comment, show support and your concern for her.

I mean it, thank you from the bottom of my heart.


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## OldNag (29 April 2020)

Nothing I can add that hasn't been said. I think you and your mare are very badly let down by your vet. 
I am so sorry, I don't think you have any option now x


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## LeneHorse (30 April 2020)

This thread has been truly heart wrenching. I have a very similar photo of my little horse in her box a few days before she was pts due to Cushing's related laminitis. Her x-ray were very similar too. Like you my vet wouldn't make the call but I could see the light had gone out of my girls eyes and I had to make the hardest decision of my life and instructed the vet to do it. You have been put in an awful position by your vet but go with your heart and let her go. This was 20 years ago but it still hurts now - this weekend is the anniversary of her getting laminitis and she was pts 4 weeks later. My thoughts are with you today.


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## ycbm (30 April 2020)

Thinking of you this morning PSD. 

.


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## Yeomans (30 April 2020)

Be brave go with your gut instinct, you know your pony better than us.  Be kind to yourself as well.


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## w1bbler (30 April 2020)

Been following from the start. Good luck today.
I'm also frustrated with your vet. My horse was no where near as bad as yours, my vet gave her a 50/50 chance. His words were I'll support whatever decision you make & told me to have a think & ring him any time to chat through.
He never made it difficult for me.


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## vmac66 (30 April 2020)

Thinking of you today and hoping you get the outcome that you are looking for. Look after yourself xx


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## TPO (30 April 2020)

Thinking of you.

It's been a few years since the conversation but when I was discussing pts of a horse the vet told me that they couldnt make that decision or tell anyone to pts. The "sue" culture meant that they couldn't say that. 

I took some young pet rats to the vet a couple of years ago. They were litter mates and one had developed really bad tumour really young. I took them to be pts and vet started talking ops and treatment options. I explained that they were there to be pts (they had seen vets before for different things) and the vet was relieved. He said he would do the same but there is always pressure on them to do everything they can just to keep the animals alive for the owners that he has to offer options.


I'm not saying that's what has happened here but hopefully it helps OP feel more comfortable with making the call.

Thinking of you OP, it is never easy but it is the final kindness. Look after yourself x


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## ycbm (1 May 2020)

Thinking about you and worried for both you and your lovely little mare PSD.

.


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## lucymb (2 May 2020)

I've read the thread from start to finish and this is so sad.
I feel so sad for you and your horse. 
I've only had 1 experience of a pony with laminitis and it's a horrible thing for them to go through. He wasn't my pony but it was still horrific seeing him in so much pain every day. 
I lost my mare not long ago and it's heartbreaking, but you have to think what is best for them. You have done everything you could have to try and save her. 
My thoughts are with you.


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## Dusty 123 (2 May 2020)

Any updates them X-ray are really bad there is no  recovery when it gets that bad I think it’s now time to say goodbye before the horse dies by its self  with the pain of the bone moving. I am personally disgusted by vet attitude but it no surprise some vets will refuse to admit that it time to pts . Op please think of the horse I now it very difficult and I now you’re clinging to any bit of hope but for the horses welfare please pts


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## Nari (2 May 2020)

Dusty 123 said:



			Any updates them X-ray are really bad there is no  recovery when it gets that bad I think it’s now time to say goodbye before the horse dies by its self  with the pain of the bone moving. I am personally disgusted by vet attitude but it no surprise some vets will refuse to admit that it time to pts . Op please think of the horse I now it very difficult and I now you’re clinging to any bit of hope but for the horses welfare please pts
		
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From personal experience I can honestly say there can be recovery from x-rays like that, and furthermore a good quality of life afterwards. There are no guarantees, but then when are there? And yes alongside doing everything right a good dollop of luck is needed, but there can be hope. Important factors are whether the pain can be managed and the horse is settled on box rest, you're managing an individual not a text book. 

I don't think pressing PSD to make a decision that you feel is right is helpful to her. We don't see enough to make a decision, her and her vet and farrier do. If you can't be supportive then maybe it would be better not to post - that's not aimed purely at you by the way Dusty 123, there are other posters who have pushed their opinion though some of them now have the kindness to post just asking how PSD is coping.


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## Silverhooves (2 May 2020)

Hi, this is my first ever post but I am a long time lurker. I never imagined actually joining the forum but this thread has touched me so much I literally just set up this account to be able to post.. never thought this would be my first post if i ever did join! I’m sorry it is not about something happier  i just wanted to say I am so sorry for PSD and her pony. I can’t imagine what they are going through and certainly can’t claim what I would do if I were in that exact position. But I also feel strongly in giving a bit of tough love.. not only for the pony’s sake but for PSD, if the bone comes through the sole and this all ends in a painful death with lots of suffering then PSD may certainly suffer more for it.. and we can all see it is very near to that happening. 

Nari, I don’t agree with you saying other posters are pushing PSD to make a particular decision - i don’t think anyone would have been pushing her (and i certainly wouldn’t have posted this either) if all along PSD had said she feels it is best to carry on and she feels there is a glimmer of hope. But read back through the thread. PSD continuously says there is no hope and that this is the end, and she has even said (many times) that if her pony does survive she won’t have any quality of life. So this is coming from the owner herself. There have also been many times when PSD has said she will give one more chance and then put to sleep (e.g. results of x-rays) but doesn’t end up following through and once again suffering is prolonged (for PSD as well as the pony). The only reason i am saying this is because i see a constant voice coming from PSD, which has really been saying the same thing throughout the thread - i think every one else has also seen this, which is why they are encouraging to put to sleep - not to force PSD to do something against her will but rather to give her the strength to stick to what she has been feeling deeply inside all along. 

It looks like PSD is exhausted and stuck in a cloudy haze and is forgetting her decisions and being swayed every time by the vet - that is not a dig at PSD, i bet i would do the exact same thing as i couldn’t bare the thought of having to part with my horse and would surely want to hang on to every hopeful suggestion the vet could give.. but i hope if that ever does come there will be some outsiders who can pull me out of the haze and give me the strength to do what is needed for my horses well being.. just as i think posters are doing for PSD. Again, if PSD had mostly commented along the lines of wanting to carry on and feeling there could be hope I’m sure no one would post encouraging to put to sleep. Please go back and read through the thread and see what PSD has been saying. 

PSD if you are still reading this thread I am truly truly sorry for what you are going through - your pony is so lucky to have an owner like you! My heart really does go out to you. But i also want to urge you to stay strong and listen to your heart, read over what you have been posting also .. read your writing about thinking its better for her to be put out of her misery whilst she has some spark left.. your later posts say she has lost her spark and you feel your pony has already gone. I really don’t want to be reading future posts of you saying the bone has gone through and she not only died with no spark but she died experiencing incredible suffering and all alone. This sounds awful the way i am writing it, but i am only writing it because it hasn’t happened yet - you have time to prevent that! And I’m also sure your pony is still with you when you are close to her and her spark is still there as she is comforted by her wonderful mummy. You deserve to experience seeing your beautiful mare pass on in your company with some peace, and not in a state of pure agony. If i have offended you or upset you in any of my writing i’m so incredibly sorry! Sometimes words don’t convey correctly, i would hate to cause more pain due to my words.... my heart goes out to you and your pony and please don’t feel bad about anything - you have been absolutely amazing. 

And again, it’s easy for me to write this as i am an outsider, and i really doubt i would be doing any different.. i hope i would have the support around me as you do if i ever go through any of this. Just one last thing to add, if you feel in your heart there is hope and your pony will survive and have a good life then absolutely ignore what i’m saying and continue working through the treatment and healing plans! Definitely don’t listen to any strangers on an internet forum!! You know your pony, not us. I guess there are instances when miracles can happen as Nari says. But just listen to your heart, if it is still saying there is absolutely no hope then please end all this suffering now without waiting for the vet to give the go ahead! Much love to you.. i have honestly never been so affected by a thread before.. xxx


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## ycbm (2 May 2020)

Nari said:



			From personal experience I can honestly say there can be recovery from x-rays like that, and furthermore a good quality of life afterwards. There are no guarantees, but then when are there? And yes alongside doing everything right a good dollop of luck is needed, but there can be hope. Important factors are whether the pain can be managed and the horse is settled on box rest, you're managing an individual not a text book. 

I don't think pressing PSD to make a decision that you feel is right is helpful to her. We don't see enough to make a decision, her and her vet and farrier do. If you can't be supportive then maybe it would be better not to post - that's not aimed purely at you by the way Dusty 123, there are other posters who have pushed their opinion though some of them now have the kindness to post just asking how PSD is coping.
		
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Be fair Nari, twice PSD has told us that she is going to tell the vet that enough is enough. We were supporting that choice, not pushing our views on her. Nobody told her to put the horse to sleep until after she had already told us that she was going to.


.


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## Nari (2 May 2020)

Ycbm I feel that there's a difference between what she thinks she should do according to widely held views on rotation and sinking, and what she feels is right for her mare, but maybe that's just my take on it. I do feel some posters have been pushing by repeating the same thing and painting a nightmare picture if she doesn't do as they say now. And for what it's worth you've been one of the people who after expressing your opinion have been generous enough to ask after PSD with no further pressure.


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## Dusty 123 (2 May 2020)

She was asking for advice I gave my opinion I wasn’t pushing it on her and she said she was going to if nothing else worked she would pts  I was supporting her it better than saying it going to be fine or lying to her. I actually lost my first lone pony to these condition just over a year ago. I personally don’t think the poster would like people fight over the pony in the  form.


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## View (4 May 2020)

Hi PSD, hope both you and your gorgeous mare have had a better weekend.


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## ycbm (4 May 2020)

Nari said:



			Ycbm I feel that there's a difference between what she thinks she should do according to widely held views on rotation and sinking, and what she feels is right for her mare, but maybe that's just my take on it. I do feel some posters have been pushing by repeating the same thing and painting a nightmare picture if she doesn't do as they say now. And for what it's worth you've been one of the people who after expressing your opinion have been generous enough to ask after PSD with no further pressure.
		
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You are still being unfair. If those posts had been written before the posters were told that PSD was going to insist that the mare was put to sleep because she wasn't herself any more, then you would be right. But they weren't. They were written afterwards and they were to support her having made a very brave decision.

Dusty is right, PSD would not want us to be arguing like this. I have thought long and hard about whether to write this. But people need support when they make that terrible decision and your criticism will put them off doing it again for someone else.

Will you please balance this post of mine by adding your story about how your horse recovered, from how bad a rotation and sink, how long that took, and what life they had after recovery?

PSD, if you are reading this, I hope this week sees an improvement with the replacement of the Imprints and that things continue that way.

.


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## Reacher (4 May 2020)

OP I just want to wish you and your mare well and I hope the vets give you the help you need. 
Like other posters I have been through this myself so  I feel for you and your mare x


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## shortstuff99 (4 May 2020)

ycbm said:



			You are still being unfair. If those posts had been written before the posters were told that PSD was going to insist that the mare was put to sleep because she wasn't herself any more, then you would be right. But they weren't. They were written afterwards and they were to support her having made a very brave decision.

Dusty is right, PSD would not want us to be arguing like this. I have thought long and hard about whether to write this. But people need support when they make that terrible decision and your criticism will put them off doing it again for someone else.

Will you please balance this post of mine by adding your story about how your horse recovered, from how bad a rotation and sink, how long that took, and what life they had after recovery?

PSD, if you are reading this, I hope this week sees an improvement with the replacement of the Imprints and that things continue that way.

.
		
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I can give mine if it helps anybody? My old mare suddenly went down with horrendous laminitis with no warning. It turned out that she had Cushing's disease BUT was negative for EMS. I was out of the country at the time so my parents didn't feel comfortable putting her down without me there. She had 15 degrees rotation in one front foot at about 10 degrees in the other. She struggled to stand and to walk.

It took a while to find pain medication that she would take and would work, in the end we had metacam. Which was very effective. She had a frog support on her feet until the pain improved, then moved to egg bars with a pad and filled with a sterile and antibiotic/anti fungal gel type stuff.

All in the recovery took about 12 months, I think most people thought we should have put her down, but she was slowly recovering which is why we carried on. 

I have a brilliant farrier and about a year after the recovery her rotation was 'corrected'. 10 years on she is now 26 and still out competing and loving life so I'm glad I did it!

Now this might not be for everyone and I think it was easier for me as we were able to treat the underlying cause (cushings) and she does not have EMS so managing her is easier but it is a success story.


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## meleeka (4 May 2020)

shortstuff99 said:



			I can give mine if it helps anybody? My old mare suddenly went down with horrendous laminitis with no warning. It turned out that she had Cushing's disease BUT was negative for EMS. I was out of the country at the time so my parents didn't feel comfortable putting her down without me there. She had 15 degrees rotation in one front foot at about 10 degrees in the other. She struggled to stand and to walk.

It took a while to find pain medication that she would take and would work, in the end we had metacam. Which was very effective. She had a frog support on her feet until the pain improved, then moved to egg bars with a pad and filled with a sterile and antibiotic/anti fungal gel type stuff.

All in the recovery took about 12 months, I think most people thought we should have put her down, but she was slowly recovering which is why we carried on.

I have a brilliant farrier and about a year after the recovery her rotation was 'corrected'. 10 years on she is now 26 and still out competing and loving life so I'm glad I did it!

Now this might not be for everyone and I think it was easier for me as we were able to treat the underlying cause (cushings) and she does not have EMS so managing her is easier but it is a success story.
		
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I thing Cushings is a lot easier to deal with. Once you’ve found the cause and medicated it’s just a case of recovery.  

I see where you are coming from and voiced my concerns earlier on in this thread that it’s very easy to say PTS when you haven’t got the horse in front of you.  Once the OP responded with the update that the pony was in fact worse and she felt that she wasn’t happy anymore, I felt that she needed to do what she thought was right and all we could do was support her, whatever she decides.


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## shortstuff99 (4 May 2020)

meleeka said:



			I thing Cushings is a lot easier to deal with. Once you’ve found the cause and medicated it’s just a case of recovery. 

I see where you are coming from and voiced my concerns earlier on in this thread that it’s very easy to say PTS when you haven’t got the horse in front of you.  Once the OP responded with the update that the pony was in fact worse and she felt that she wasn’t happy anymore, I felt that she needed to do what she thought was right and all we could do was support her, whatever she decides.
		
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Just to add it wasn't me that mentioned not jumping to PTS, just thought I would add a success story. I support whatever an owner decides is best for their horse and for them.


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## ester (4 May 2020)

Also this mare has had this since december and then deteriorated again recently. It is certainly helpful to see success stories but those I know of seem to be more acute as oppossed to getting to be chronic and worsening.


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## shortstuff99 (4 May 2020)

ester said:



			Also this mare has had this since december and then deteriorated again recently. It is certainly helpful to see success stories but those I know of seem to be more acute as oppossed to getting to be chronic and worsening.
		
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Yes, on the other side my old pony had EMS although I managed this with diet and poor grazing (not medication). When he got into his 30's he also developed Cushing symptoms and coupled with his EMS it got very difficult to manage the laminitis to the point where he could have no grass at all or it would bring it on. 

I then made the decision to put to sleep as I thought it best for him at his age rather then going through long periods of box rest. 

I have seen both sides and hope that both these stories help a few people!


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## holeymoley (4 May 2020)

While it’s good to hear other people’s experiences with laminitis, I have gone through a serious case myself with my guy as mentioned above somewhere, I think this case is a bit different. Which is why I’ve stopped referring back to my experience.  This little horse has been suffering for a good few months now and unfortunately isn’t any better, to the point of being very close to the bone protruding through. Yes there has been success stories even with the bone having sunk but I think this little soul has been on a very long journey now.  I personally don’t think it’s any more helpful to the op to share our own experiences, more so if they’ve recovered.

OP I hope you’re okay, I keep hoping there’s an update x


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## Nari (4 May 2020)

Ycbm I've messaged PSD about my experiences and as such don't feel the need to retell it in full on here. Enough to say he's IR and there had been likely been slow changes over a period of time followed by an acute change where he severely rotated in both fores and also sank - it was a good few years ago now so I don't remember exact percentages but suffice to say he was very nearly through the sole and the worse foot started to bow out on the sole when the shoe was removed. He did nearly 9 months box rest, was regularly x-rayed with the farrier there to trim exactly to x-rays and was shod in a few different types of shoe but always with pads and putty for support. Bute, Sedalin, Metformin and very careful management. 

Years later he's a very bright cheerful lad who hacks out with great enthusiasm. Lives out on poor grazing 24/7 in the summer, supplemented with soaked hay as needed, and in the winter is out in the day and stabled at night. 

Each case is an individual. Some mild cases never recover, some severe ones do. I also feel that no matter how good the treatment and management if you have a bad case you need a hefty dollop of luck.


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## View (4 May 2020)

Nari said:



			Each case is an individual. Some mild cases never recover, some severe ones do. I also feel that no matter how good the treatment and management if you have a bad case you need a hefty dollop of luck.
		
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So, so true.


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## indie1282 (5 May 2020)

Just read this whole thread. I'm really sorry PSD but those x rays are horrific.  

How are things now?


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## MiniMilton (5 May 2020)

Thinking of you OP. Wishing you strength in the coming days.
Honestly I think your vet is being unfair to you and making this decision far more difficult than it already is.


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## Equi (11 May 2020)

Just checking in psd. I hope you’re well and safe.


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## indie1282 (11 May 2020)

equi said:



			Just checking in psd. I hope you’re well and safe.
		
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Me too. I have noticed PSD has commented on other threads so hoping for an update to this one soon.


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## Equi (11 May 2020)

My Main concern was psd own well-being, so I’m glad she’s been seen in other threads.


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 May 2020)

Hi al sorry for the lack of updates - I’ve just had a bit of rough time getting my head around things.

So I won’t bore you with too much detail, but after the x rays I shared last time I had a good talk with the farrier and vet who said that we should increase the metformin dose as they thought this was the reason for her lack of improvement. That was 2 weeks ago. The farrier couldn’t get hold of the imprint shoes at the time of those x rays as they were out of stock so a week later the vet agreed to re-X-ray so the farrier could have an up to date version and be able to trim accordingly, however in this week she had worsened again from 16 degrees to 18. But the vet at the time felt that this was most likely due to the fact she hasn’t been trimmed, so because she was happy enough (weight baring, less lying down etc) I agreed to let them trim and see how that went.

Unfortunately she hadn’t improved, her sole became “spongy” and the vet believed that this was now because the pedal bone was sinking too far and she was at risk of penetrating. After a long chat with the head vet yesterday he and I both agreed that her feet are just too badly damaged now to come back from this, she isn’t improving despite doing absolutely everything we can for her. It’s so sad because she is still bright and happy and even a lot more mobile than she was.

So Tilly will be crossing rainbow bridge at some point this week - I am just waiting for the crematorium to call me back today with their availability to collect her and the vets will work around this.

I’m heartbroken to say the very least. I really thought with the way she seemed, that things inside the feet were improving however they just aren’t.

I want to thank you all for your amazing support, advice and well wishes however this time it just wasn’t meant to be for her. My vet is deeply upset, but he said he fully believes it’s due to the lack of intervention at the beginning - that being said there’s nothing that can change that now. He said we’ve exhausted every option and there is just nothing left to do but I should take peace in the fact that I’ve tried everything and tried so hard to get her back. They have been truly amazing in trying to fight this on her behalf and I am so sad that it has come to this.


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## vmac66 (13 May 2020)

So so sorry to hear this. You've have gone above and beyond for your mare and she is so lucky to have you.  Think everyone has been hoping for a better outcome. 
Sending you hugs. Take care and look after yourself x


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## Roxylola (13 May 2020)

Sorry to see this update. Thoughts are with you it's never an easy decision but you've done all you can now


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## Nari (13 May 2020)

I'm sending you lots of love, and strength and peace for what's to come x


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## milliepops (13 May 2020)

really sorry PSD  been reading your thread but not commented before as I had nothing useful to add. I feel so very sad for you but you have done your absolute best. I hope in time it starts to feel less awful and you can remember the good times you have had with your sweet mare.


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## Pearlsasinger (13 May 2020)

I'm sorry to hear that you haven't got a better result, you certainly have been let down by the professionals, especially the first vet. I am glad that she still has some sparkle, as that is the best time to let her go.  You really wouldn't want to make her wait for release until she had lost that.  thinking of you.


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## ycbm (13 May 2020)

Thank you so much for taking the time to update us when you have so much to deal with.  I'm so sorry you didn't get a happier outcome to report.  You did your absolute best.  I'll be thinking of you this week. 

.


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## Yeomans (13 May 2020)

So sorry to hear this and thank you for letting us all know.  Will be thinking of you in the next couple of days.  Look after yourself as well.


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## OldNag (13 May 2020)

I am so sorry, you know we're all thinking of you. You could not have done more for your mare and I hope that thought will help you through this. xx


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## millikins (13 May 2020)

Sad news PSD, I hope you feel some relief at having made the decision, even though it isn't the outcome you have tried so hard for.


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## Noble (13 May 2020)

So sorry to read this, you have done all you could for your mare.  Look after yourself.


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## View (13 May 2020)

OP, so sorry to read this.  Please take some comfort that you have done everything that you can for your sweet girl.  Hugs, and will be thinking of you.  It's never easy.


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## holeymoley (13 May 2020)

So sorry to hear this. Wishing you all the strength to get through the rest of the week xx


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 May 2020)

Thank you all for your kind words. It’s hurting that we couldn’t get her right but that is the heartbreak of this horrific disease if it isn’t caught early enough.

She will be meeting my old boy who I lost last year, on Friday morning. I hope she knows how much I’ve tried for her 💔


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## fusspot (13 May 2020)

So sorry to read this.When you have let her go, apart from the upset, you will feel a small sense of relief that your beautiful girl is now in no pain.After a time, you will look back and see that you really have been a wonderful owner that can not have done any more to see if you could get her back on her feet.Sometimes it doesn’t matter what you do....it just isn’t meant to be.You have been unbelievably brave through all this.Thinking of you at this tough time.xx


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## indie1282 (13 May 2020)

Thank you for the update. I wish you all the best for Friday and am really very sorry that the outcome wasn't better xx


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## Arzada (13 May 2020)

I'm so very sorry PSD. You couldn't have been a better more caring owner. We'll be thinking of you and Tilly on Friday.


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 May 2020)

My lovely yard owner has said if I wish to, give her as much bute as I can and I can let her go in YOs paddock for a few hours tomorrow. I’m sure she will love that and she can spend her last day with us happy and content eating some grass. The vet has said they’d be happy to let her do this too


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## DabDab (13 May 2020)

So sorry PSD. You are a wonderful owner, and she is truly lucky to have you - to be loved and cared for until the end is what all of us hope for. What a cruel condition laminitis is. Thinking of you xx


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## TPO (13 May 2020)

Sorry that a miracle didnt happen for you, you've tried every option and I agree that you are making the best decision.

Thinking of you x


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## lucymb (13 May 2020)

So sorry to hear this. 
Ive been thinking about how you were getting on so thank you for updating us.
You are doing the right thing and have done everything you could have done for her.💕
Im sure she would love some time out in the paddock.


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## LeneHorse (13 May 2020)

Thanks for updating us even though it is a sad outcome. You really couldn't have done any more for your lovely girl. My Millie will be waiting for your Tilly across rainbow bridge too.


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## Equi (13 May 2020)

Pic you have been incredible through out this all. I will continue to keep you in my thoughts x


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 May 2020)

LeneHorse said:



			Thanks for updating us even though it is a sad outcome. You really couldn't have done any more for your lovely girl. My Millie will be waiting for your Tilly across rainbow bridge too.
		
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Tilly was actually named after my first horse as a child who was also called Millie ❤️ I hope they look after each other xx


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## outdoor girl (13 May 2020)

My lovely yard owner has said if I wish to, give her as much bute as I can and I can let her go in YOs paddock for a few hours tomorrow. I’m sure she will love that and she can spend her last day with us happy and content eating some grass. The vet has said they’d be happy to let her do this too

I've been following this, but not posted anything until now.  I'm really sorry to hear of this outcome PSD, but you have tried everything you could to achieve a better result.  This is what we did with our mare a few years ago.  She had cushings related laminitis and although the cushings was under control, the vet and farrier couldn't get the laminitis under control.  We tried everything we could but nothing worked.  We organised for the vet to come one early afternoon, so after about 3 months on box rest, she had 4 bute and spent the morning out in the field, sound as a pound, with her mates, bucking, kicking, farting and eating grass and just being a horse again.  Remember the good times.  Thinking of you this week.  P.S. Her name was Tilly too,


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## PictusSweetDreams (13 May 2020)

outdoor girl said:



			My lovely yard owner has said if I wish to, give her as much bute as I can and I can let her go in YOs paddock for a few hours tomorrow. I’m sure she will love that and she can spend her last day with us happy and content eating some grass. The vet has said they’d be happy to let her do this too

I've been following this, but not posted anything until now.  I'm really sorry to hear of this outcome PSD, but you have tried everything you could to achieve a better result.  This is what we did with our mare a few years ago.  She had cushings related laminitis and although the cushings was under control, the vet and farrier couldn't get the laminitis under control.  We tried everything we could but nothing worked.  We organised for the vet to come one early afternoon, so after about 3 months on box rest, she had 4 bute and spent the morning out in the field, sound as a pound, with her mates, bucking, kicking, farting and eating grass and just being a horse again.  Remember the good times.  Thinking of you this week.  P.S. Her name was Tilly too,
		
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oh bless her. The vet said that to me, give her 4 bute and put her out for afternoon tomorrow and let her just be a horse, after 5 months of box rest I am sure she will be more than happy to be out in the fresh air


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## MiniMilton (13 May 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			My lovely yard owner has said if I wish to, give her as much bute as I can and I can let her go in YOs paddock for a few hours tomorrow. I’m sure she will love that and she can spend her last day with us happy and content eating some grass. The vet has said they’d be happy to let her do this too
		
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I'm absolutely heartbroken for you. My mares last day was spent out in the field, grass in her mouth and sun on her back, with lots of bute. (also laminitis, and also with the same name as your mare!) 
I will be thinking of you both on Friday x


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## ycbm (13 May 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			I hope she knows how much I’ve tried for her 💔
		
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Oh they know, that I'm sure of. 

.


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## Rosemary28 (13 May 2020)

Oh PSD I'm so sorry. Sending lots of hugs and positive thoughts. She is so so lucky to have had someone as caring as you as her owner.


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## meleeka (13 May 2020)

I’m sorry it wasn’t better news.  This bit is the hardest though, the deciding and the waiting.  You can at least know you’ve tried absolutely everything.  

I hope she can go peacefully with a mouth full of lush grass and all the love in world to send her on her way.  It’s what I’d want if I were a horse x


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## holandmac (13 May 2020)

I am heartbroken for you, PSD. Been following this story for a while, it is so crystal clear that you have done everything in your power for your girl. I am sure she knows just how hard you have fought for her and is grateful to you, she is lucky to have such a fantastic owner. Thinking of you now and will be thinking of you on Friday. x


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## Aperchristmastree (13 May 2020)

I'm so sorry PSD, no one could have done more than you have. It's just heartbreaking to lose them, particularly when you have tried so hard, but this is the best and kindest thing you can do as an owner. We are all thinking of you.


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## southerncomfort (13 May 2020)

So sorry.  Will be thinking of you and Tilly on Friday. X


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## scats (13 May 2020)

Thinking of you PSD xxx


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## Ownedby4horses (13 May 2020)

Incredibly sad for you PSD, ive been following your thread from the start and saying prayers that there would be improvement. I really wished there could have been a miracle outcome for you both. You have shown to everyone what an incredible owner you are, every horse would wish to have you as an owner. She does know how hard you've tried for her, of that I am sure. I will be thinking of you both on Friday. x


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## Spotherisk (13 May 2020)

Devastating to have cared and tried so hard, the emotional toll is awful and I really feel for you as I’m certainly nowhere near being over mine being pts not long ago.  Hoping she enjoys her time in the paddock and you can find enjoyment with her in these last few days.  
I took hair from my geldings tail a few weeks before he passed, maybe take some?  You might think you don’t want to but you can always put it to one side to consider what to do with it at a later date.  Big hugs.


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## Mule (13 May 2020)

I'll be thinking of you both xx


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## alibali (13 May 2020)

I'm so very sorry. Thinking of you


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## throughtheforest (14 May 2020)

So sorry PSD, it's a debilitating condition to manage at times and you did your best for your dearly loved friend. 
Mine was pts 3 years ago along with his elderly friend who had COPD, after an 18 month battle of managing the laminitis for one and COPD for the other. 
Wishing you all the best at this difficult time x


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 May 2020)

Happy as Larry. Grass in her belly and the sun on her back ❤️


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## southerncomfort (14 May 2020)

Bless you PSD. She looks very happy indeed. 

I know your heart will be breaking. Stay strong.  Lots of love. Xx


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## outdoor girl (14 May 2020)

What a lovely picture.  The weather couldn't be better for her today.  Don't know where you are, but that awful cold wind has gone from here.


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## Dusty 123 (14 May 2020)

At least she can spend her final days eating grass and enjoy herself.I really feel for you lost  2 horses in a space of a year . Stay strong Laminitis is a very cruel disease.


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 May 2020)

outdoor girl said:



			What a lovely picture.  The weather couldn't be better for her today.  Don't know where you are, but that awful cold wind has gone from here.
		
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we are in Manchester, the weather is beautiful today I’m so glad for her. She struggled to get to the paddock but once her feet touched the grass I could see the happiness in her face. I’m just so thankful she is able to spend the day out in the sun being a horse


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## outdoor girl (14 May 2020)

I'm  not too far from you then, in north Cheshire.  The weather is absolutely glorious.  Stay strong and enjoy the time you have left with her.  I'll be thinking of you tomorrow.


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## Nari (14 May 2020)

A lovely moment for both of you x


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 May 2020)

Nari said:



			A lovely moment for both of you x
		
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I think that is an image to frame and treasure forever ❤️


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## archiesmum (14 May 2020)

I'm so, so sorry to see this, I had everything crossed for you both but what a lucky girl to have had you in her corner doing all that you could. A beautiful picture and I hope she loves every mouthful <3 Will be thinking of you tomorrow x


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## Equi (14 May 2020)

Gosh I’m an emotional wreck just seeing that photo so can’t imagine how it is for you. As always, thinking of you.


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## fusspot (14 May 2020)

Lovely way that you will remember her.Definetly one for the wall.Thinking of you.x


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 May 2020)

equi said:



			Gosh I’m an emotional wreck just seeing that photo so can’t imagine how it is for you. As always, thinking of you.
		
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I find it really peaceful in a way, just with how happy and content she must be. Probably something to do with the amount of bute she had this morning but even so, she’s enjoying herself and that makes me happy


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## misst (14 May 2020)

Oh my what a lovely picture. I have one similar of our old grey mare out on bute for the first time in ages at the end of her laminitis journey. So sorry she couldn't be made better and hugs for tomorrow. Remember she only knows the here and now and isn't dreading it like you are. She is just enjoying herself the way a horse should. Safe journey to her over the bridge and look after yourself. Tears running down my face at work now!


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## PictusSweetDreams (14 May 2020)

misst said:



			Oh my what a lovely picture. I have one similar of our old grey mare out on bute for the first time in ages at the end of her laminitis journey. So sorry she couldn't be made better and hugs for tomorrow. Remember she only knows the here and now and isn't dreading it like you are. She is just enjoying herself the way a horse should. Safe journey to her over the bridge and look after yourself. Tears running down my face at work now!
		
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It’s one I will treasure. I know and it’s just so lovely that the weather is so nice for her. I’ve cried a lot, my OH and kids will be saying goodbye later and that will break me but she deserves to be at peace. She’s tried so hard and she owes me nothing, she deserves to be pain free


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## misst (14 May 2020)

When this is done take your time don't let anyone tell you she was just a horse. Grieve as long and hard as you like. Our old girl went 8 years ago and I am crying now xxx


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## splashgirl45 (14 May 2020)

so very sorry,  as we hadnt heard i was hoping things had improved , you have tried everything and know that you are doing the right thing tomorrow.  glad your YO is being supportive and she is getting some grass before she goes.  keep strong and remember to look after yourself xxx


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## [139672] (14 May 2020)

Ever horse should have an owner like you. Thinking of you. Going off to have a cry now 😢 Xxxx


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## scats (14 May 2020)

PSD, you are the owner that every horse should have.  I am thinking of you xxx


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## tiahatti (14 May 2020)

Thinking of you Xxxxx My Hatti was put to sleep in January. I know I did the right thing and you are doing so too. How privileged we are to have them in our lives. She will meet up with our Hatti tomorrow. Take care xx


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## windand rain (14 May 2020)

A beautiful photo of a happy relaxed girl She is lucky to have you and please take good care of yourself


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## SEL (14 May 2020)

Got tears in my eyes looking at that photo. Will be thinking of you and sending very many hugs xx


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## lucymb (14 May 2020)

What a lovely picture for you to treasure.


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## Hannahgb (15 May 2020)

Thinking of you. You couldn't have done more for her, she is lucky to have you. Huge hugs xxx


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## Yeomans (15 May 2020)

Will be thinking of you today.


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## Mule (15 May 2020)

I'll be thinking of you too x


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## ycbm (15 May 2020)

Thinking of you today,  doing the kindest thing.  

.


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## Quigleyandme (15 May 2020)

I’m thinking of you this morning.  Nobody could have fought harder than you.  You have been heroic in your determination to do all that was humanly possible to beat this bloody wretched condition.  Your acceptance that you can do no more is a testament to your courage.  X


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## throughtheforest (15 May 2020)

Thinking of you today x


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## holeymoley (15 May 2020)

Thinking of you this morning x


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## southerncomfort (15 May 2020)

Thinking of you. Xx


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## fusspot (15 May 2020)

Thinking of you today.xx


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## Pinkvboots (15 May 2020)

Thinking of you today so sorry it wasn't a better outcome you both truly deserved better as you tried so hard xx


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## Jeni the dragon (15 May 2020)

You're in my thoughts today. Please take care of yourself.


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## PictusSweetDreams (15 May 2020)

Well my beautiful girl has galloped over rainbow bridge. No more pain now, she went so peacefully and she was definitely ready.

Sleep tight my precious girl, I’m just so sorry I couldn’t fix you ❤️


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## Amymay (15 May 2020)

Was thinking of you this morning xxxx


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## meleeka (15 May 2020)

I’m pleased she went peacefully.  You’ve done the kindest thing and well done for being brave enough.  Be kind to yourself x


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## shortstuff99 (15 May 2020)

I'm glad she had a lovely day in the field and then passed peacefully. Thinking of you, virtual hugs x


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## ycbm (15 May 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Well my beautiful girl has galloped over rainbow bridge. No more pain now, she went so peacefully and she was definitely ready.

Sleep tight my precious girl, I’m just so sorry I couldn’t fix you ❤️ 
	View attachment 47251

Click to expand...


What a lovely picture, it has brought a lump to my throat and tears to my eyes.  So sorry you couldn't win,  PSD. 

.


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## m1stify (15 May 2020)

So sorry for your loss x


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## holeymoley (15 May 2020)

What a pretty girl. This thread has made my eyes very watery.  She’s no longer in pain now xx


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## Nettle123 (15 May 2020)

Well done, the hardest and most painful decision for you but she is pain free now xxx


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## LaurenBay (15 May 2020)

I'm so sorry for your loss xxx


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## OldNag (15 May 2020)

I am so sorry.  She looks such a sweetie. 
You did everything you could, and more.  Xxx


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## Rosemary28 (15 May 2020)

I'm so sorry PSD  Thinking of you xxxx


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## vmac66 (15 May 2020)

So sorry. Look after yourself. Xx


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## Nari (15 May 2020)

Lots of love to you PSD, and I'm relieved it went as well as it could. I think that when they leave that peacefully it's a sure sign they were ready to go, and the last things she knew were sun, grass and people she loved xxx


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## Errin Paddywack (15 May 2020)

So glad to hear she went peacefully, such a pretty mare.  Hope you are ok.


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## tallyho! (15 May 2020)

Tears literally streaming down my cheeks. So sorry for your loss PSD. Run free Tilly, RIP xxx


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## Equi (15 May 2020)

I’m just devstated for you. Sleep tight little one ❤️❤️❤️


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## PictusSweetDreams (15 May 2020)

Thank you everyone for your kind words. I feel quite peaceful at the moment, I’m just glad she’s no longer in pain ❤️


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## Pinkvboots (15 May 2020)

Been thinking of you all morning that picture is lovely but it made me cry, take care of yourself xx


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## AdorableAlice (15 May 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Thank you everyone for your kind words. I feel quite peaceful at the moment, I’m just glad she’s no longer in pain ❤️
		
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If only all horses had the honour of being owned by you.  Treasure the good days, the special memories and take comfort in knowing you did everything possible for your beautiful mare.


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## Ownedby4horses (15 May 2020)

Sweet dreams lovely Tilly, thinking of you PSD. x


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## fusspot (15 May 2020)

RIP and pain free Tilly.My 2 went very peacefully and vet said they were ready.You will feel some peace and a slight sense of relief that the decision has been made and she is now in a pain free world.Take time for yourself and to digest everything you have been through this last few weeks.It will hit you at some point and don’t be frightened to show your emotion,It’s all part of the grieving process.Its been mentally a very tough time for you.xx


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## PictusSweetDreams (15 May 2020)

fusspot said:



			RIP and pain free Tilly.My 2 went very peacefully and vet said they were ready.You will feel some peace and a slight sense of relief that the decision has been made and she is now in a pain free world.Take time for yourself and to digest everything you have been through this last few weeks.It will hit you at some point and don’t be frightened to show your emotion,It’s all part of the grieving process.Its been mentally a very tough time for you.xx
		
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thank you.

My vet said with how quickly she went she was more than ready, she had a quick look at her feet this morning before it happened and said I’ve definitely made the right decision. She was so good all the way to the end, one in a million pony that will never ever be forgotten 💔


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## lucymb (15 May 2020)

Like everyone else i have been thinking about you all morning. 
Sending love to you. 
Take time to let everything sink in and don't let the "what if" play on your mind. 
You did everything you could have done to help her. Sometimes we just have to let them go.❤


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## fusspot (15 May 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			thank you.

My vet said with how quickly she went she was more than ready, she had a quick look at her feet this morning before it happened and said I’ve definitely made the right decision. She was so good all the way to the end, one in a million pony that will never ever be forgotten 💔
		
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That is also something you can take from today-that you definetly made the decision at the right time for her.Your experience this morning was exactly like mine a year ago.The vet said how quickly he went was a sign his system was starting to shut down and he wouldn’t have lasted much longer.You have been the best owner,go and spend some time with your family and take your feelingS as they come over the next week or 2.Xx


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## Billyandme (15 May 2020)

So very sorry but you have shown yourself to be an amazing owner and person.


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## ownedbyaconnie (15 May 2020)

Have been following this thread but never had anything of use or susbtance to say. 

Thinking of you today.  As others have said she only knew the here and now and what she knew is she is loved and has had a glorious day with the sun on her back and a belly full of grass.



Nettle123 said:



			Well done, the hardest and most painful decision for you but she is pain free now xxx
	View attachment 47254

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What a lovely bitter sweet picture.  Immediately brought a lump to my throat!


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## LadyGascoyne (15 May 2020)

So sorry PSD. You did what was right, and kind and brave.

Your commitment to do right by this horse has really been admirable, and you’ve really done absolutely everything you could for her.

She was a beautiful mare, and you are a wonderful owner.


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## meleeka (15 May 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			Thank you everyone for your kind words. I feel quite peaceful at the moment, I’m just glad she’s no longer in pain ❤️
		
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It will take some getting used to, not having the worry and stress.


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## splashgirl45 (15 May 2020)

pleased all went ok and you feel at peace with your decision.  that pic bought tears to my eyes, she was so beautiful.  its a horrible condition and you did your best for her...i have been lucky in that all of mine have been good ages when they went but it doesnt make it any easier to make that final decision.  please give yourself some time to grieve, hugs  xxx


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## View (15 May 2020)

I'm relieved that she went peacefully having enjoyed some time in a field.

As others have said, you will experience different emotions.  Please be kind to yourself, just as you have done everything you can to ensure she is out of pain.

It's never easy, but take comfort that she had a wonderful owner.

RIP Tilly


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## [139672] (15 May 2020)

Bless her. Sending a big hug to you and your family. Take care x


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## Ambers Echo (15 May 2020)

So terribly sorry you couldn't win despite doing absolutely everything possible for her. What a beautiful pony inside and out. Xx


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## Ceriann (15 May 2020)

I (along with everyone else on here) so wished for a different outcome for you both.  You did everything you could, no horse could ask for more and you gave her such a special last day.  I am so sorry x


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## Mule (15 May 2020)

I'm so sorry x


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## Micky (16 May 2020)

So so sorry for you, she is at peace, couldn’t have had a more loving owner xx


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