# Another Stallion Suggestions - With pics



## MouseintheHouse (10 May 2012)

Hi, I'm new to this forum as a member, although I have been browsing for quite a while!  

I am seriously considering putting my mare in foal (her second) and would appreciate any suggestions/advice that you may have regarding conformation of my mare and possible stallion choices.

I have weighed up all the pros and cons and realise that it would be cheaper to go out and buy a weanling/yougster already on the ground, but I really want a foal from my mare who is (as far as I'm concerned) the best thing on 4 legs!  I have the facilities/finance/time and the foal will definately be a keeper.

My mare is a 15h cob of unknown breeding. Fantastic temperement, totally unflappable and takes everything in her stride, usually with a smile on her face! 

I am looking to breed an allround pleasure horse, low level competing (RC) but mainly for long hacks, charity rides, trips to the beach etc. So the stallion needs to have an amazing laid back temperement also - nothing sharp or fizzy. Ideally offspring would mature not more than 16.2h.

I don't really want to add any 'blood' and would like to keep her substance! Bottom of the list - I'm not too keen on feathers or greys either!

Any constructive critisism (sp?) on her confirmation welcome! 

Here are some photos of her - not the best as she's still in her winter coat that's coming out in clumps!


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## magic104 (11 May 2012)

Thankfully there are plenty on here that will give you suggestions on stallions, for me your mare is not good enough to breed from.  Judging by the photos obvious conformation problems, long backed, shallow feet, upright pasterns.  She also looks to be built down hill, it is just not enough to have a good temperment.  To add to it all you have no idea of how she is made up as you dont know her breeding.  You are going to find a stallion who really stamps his stock, Legrand & Htobago seem to do that, though if I had a stallion I would be worried about using him on this mare.  

The harsh reality is your circumstances could change where you are not able to keep the offspring & unless she has a fantastic competition record it will never bring back the cost of getting it on the ground.  I am truely sorry, but I for one think this mare represents all that is wrong in UK breeding.  I honestly do not mean to be harsh, & I feel awful, as you obviously love her very much, but think very hard on your choice of stallion.  As I said you will get plenty of suggestions & there will be others who think your mare is suitable.  As she has already bred a foal, who was the sire & do you have any photos to give an indication of the sort of foal she can produce?


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## the watcher (11 May 2012)

I'm not going to make a judgement as to whether your mare is suitable, you say you have already done that and hopefully you understand the potential risks to your mare of putting her in foal.

To produce something slightly more athletic, with more height, you are going to have to look at the smaller warmbloods, possibly Trakehner or for a more guaranteed result I would recomment a pure bred stallion such as a TB or Arab. I know you didn't particularly want a 'blood' stallion, but if you go heavier (to ID for example) there is a real danger you might be breeding an elephant.

I have used Valesco this time round to add size and athleticism to a smaller mare, can't show you the results as the foal isn't cooked yet, he is well known for his good temperament, so that may be another direction for you to consider


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## emlybob (11 May 2012)

magic104 said:



			Thankfully there are plenty on here that will give you suggestions on stallions, for me your mare is not good enough to breed from.  Judging by the photos obvious conformation problems, long backed, shallow feet, upright pasterns.  She also looks to be built down hill, it is just not enough to have a good temperment.  To add to it all you have no idea of how she is made up as you dont know her breeding.  You are going to find a stallion who really stamps his stock, Legrand & Htobago seem to do that, though if I had a stallion I would be worried about using him on this mare.  

The harsh reality is your circumstances could change where you are not able to keep the offspring & unless she has a fantastic competition record it will never bring back the cost of getting it on the ground.  I am truely sorry, but I for one think this mare represents all that is wrong in UK breeding.  I honestly do not mean to be harsh, & I feel awful, as you obviously love her very much, but think very hard on your choice of stallion.  As I said you will get plenty of suggestions & there will be others who think your mare is suitable.  As she has already bred a foal, who was the sire & do you have any photos to give an indication of the sort of foal she can produce?
		
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Absolutely agree with the above post.  Magic you couldn't have said it better.  I suppose at least advice has been sought but i hope the mare's owner makes the right choice


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## Holly831 (11 May 2012)

Another agreeing with Magic I am afraid.

At the end of the day it is your decision but I would advise against putting her in foal.

I know you say 'forever' home but none of us can guarantee that (sadly) and although you are doing this with the best of intentions they are some gorgeous youngsters out there with fabulous temperaments that you could:

1. Buy cheaper than the cost of getting your foal on the ground
2. Would guarantee you a live youngster
3. Safeguard your sweet mare from any chance of death through complications of foaling (I know she has had a foal before but just look at what some of us have lost so far this year - experienced mares and foals  )
4. Know exactly what you are getting (and what colour)

Good Luck with whatever you decide x


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## maestro (11 May 2012)

For me I woould look at a couple such as May 1 frome Grooms bridge stud or, of at tangent a bit, Benwode Brokat.  We had a  super youngster born here by him proper family temperment and colour might produce something nice.  As its hopefully a keeper I would be looking to produce a quality allrounder but you do need ,I think anyway, to know that if in the future you need to sell you have a nice person.


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## Jamana (11 May 2012)

I don't usually reply on these topics as I am not in the Sports Horse world and don't know any of the stallions. However I always notice on this type of thread similar responses, such as the one from Magic104. How often do we hear that there are plenty of nice well bred foals out there to buy? Who breeds these?  (Perhaps people who push the idea of buying them...??)

Magic104 I see from earlier threads that you have bred a foal this year, and I am pleased that your mare got over the complications that arose, but if you are breeding one yourself then I am sorry who are you to tell someone else to go out and buy one instead? You seem to have a rather direct approach to any confo critique, which I applaud as I hate asking for someone's opinion and just being told what they think I want to hear, but to dismiss the OP with such strong phrases and then to sum it up as  representing all that is wrong in British breeding is not helpful just patronising.

IMO one problem with British breeding is that too many 'performance' horses are bred. Who breeds just ordinary, everyday best friends? To me the mare above may have her faults, but they haven't stopped her from leading an active useful life and a great temperament is a huge attribute on it's own. For the stated objective of the OP, pleasure rides, beach hacking, a little RC competition, the mare looks a good candidate. If the OP is not looking to sell then whether *to* breed is not a factor it is *what* to breed that counts. And if in future the foal ever would  need selling then a good tempered allround with less then perfect conformation will outsell and highly strung, well bred, performance type confo blueprint.

As far as stallions go, as I have said I don't know sports horse sires, but I would look for a stallion that is short-coupled with plenty behind him and well sprung pasterns. A neat, quality head but not too light of bone. Maybe QH, Anglo or even one of the bigger Connemara's?


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## tristar (11 May 2012)

from those photos, allowing for the fact the way she is standing with her front legs underneath herself etc, i like her, she looks a good sort to me, i would reserve full opinion though, not having seen her move, but i think if you like a horse enough to want to reproduce it, and you know it better than we do, you are the best judge.

bearing in mine what you to achieve, i would look at and study the different breeds and individual stallions to keep the character of this mare, maybe a large native cross thoroughbred stallion, or something like my own stallion who is andalusian cross anglo-arab, or a stallion half arab, so  you get a bit more  quality and scope, but not too much high power.

look at the arab horse society web site and other breed societies to dicover what there is out there, or sport horse gb, you could be surprised!

remember at the end of the day, that the youngster will need good training to become a useful 'citizen' and although you don't know mom's breeding his future will be assured if take his education seriously and produce a sane rideable and enjoyable person.


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## magic104 (11 May 2012)

Jamana said:



			I don't usually reply on these topics as I am not in the Sports Horse world and don't know any of the stallions. However I always notice on this type of thread similar responses, such as the one from Magic104. How often do we hear that there are plenty of nice well bred foals out there to buy? Who breeds these?  (Perhaps people who push the idea of buying them...??) - Do you think?  Or perhaps we just know that you can buy a quality youngster for less then it costs to breed especially from a mare with no known breeding or competion record.

Magic104 I see from earlier threads that you have bred a foal this year, and I am pleased that your mare got over the complications that arose, but if you are breeding one yourself then I am sorry who are you to tell someone else to go out and buy one instead? - Because it makes economic sense to buy rather then buy, we all know that.  Even more so when you have a mare of this type.  I am glad you bothered to research my profile via other threads, always helpful.  I would just like to point out though that in the case of this poster I have not suggested she buy one instead, so think you are confusing it with other replies to other posts.

You seem to have a rather direct approach to any confo critique, which I applaud as I hate asking for someone's opinion and just being told what they think I want to hear, but to dismiss the OP with such strong phrases and then to sum it up as  representing all that is wrong in British breeding is not helpful just patronising. - But it is my opinion, based on probably not a very well angled couple of photos.  The mare looks weak in the kneck with a head too heavy for it.  She looks long & weak through her back with upright pasterns & shallow feet.  She has a weak looking hindquarter, could be improved with more muscel tone.  Would hazard a guess she is not in regular work, or at least not being made to work through her back as she lacks muscel tone full stop.  Now you can talk about harsh, but it is still my opinion based on a couple of photos & without seeing the mare move.  How many of those faults do you think a stallion is going to rectify?  Most of us agree the mare is 60/70% of the ingrediant when making this foal.  How do you justify using this mare?

IMO one problem with British breeding is that too many 'performance' horses are bred. Who breeds just ordinary, everyday best friends? - Please telll me you are joking, because these horses are being bred every year.  Also where do you think the failed 'performance' horses end up?  Most breeders put temperment at the top (or near to) of their list, so if they dont make the grade they have a useful job as someones best friend.

To me the mare above may have her faults, but they haven't stopped her from leading an active useful life and a great temperament is a huge attribute on it's own. For the stated objective of the OP, pleasure rides, beach hacking, a little RC competition, the mare looks a good candidate. If the OP is not looking to sell then whether *to* breed is not a factor it is *what* to breed that counts. And if in future the foal ever would  need selling then a good tempered allround with less then perfect conformation will outsell and highly strung, well bred, performance type confo blueprint. - Yes you are probably correct, I doubt very much the mare has or is ridden on a daily basis, so any conformation weaknesses wont be pushed.  But there are plenty of very nice large natives that fit this bill, along with the failed 'performance' horses.  

As far as stallions go, as I have said I don't know sports horse sires, but I would look for a stallion that is short-coupled with plenty behind him and well sprung pasterns. A neat, quality head but not too light of bone. Maybe QH, Anglo or even one of the bigger Connemara's?
		
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 - On this point we can agree


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## magic104 (11 May 2012)

MouseintheHouse - At least you put photos up of your mare, which so many posters of "which/what stallion" don't.  My comments are my opinion, nothing more.  If you want to inject some movement then look at Legrand who may also shorten up the offspring.  Or an arab thereby producing a PBA which opens up showing classes.  There are so many stallions to choose from, so it may come down to budget, what stud fee you want to pay etc.  Take a good look at her offspring (if this is possible), what has she passed on?  What would you want to improve on (though helps to know what the stallion was like).  As you don't know her breeding then her previous foal will be your only indication as to what she might bring to the mix.  None of us have any say in what we get, we can only put together the parents in the hope of improving on them.  Don't forget the hidden costs either, as so many of us have found out when things don't go to plan.

I say this all the time, don't breed with the attitude "It's a keeper, its for life".  Life has a habit of throwing curve balls at us.  You need to breed something that has a market.  I honestly wish you luck & hopefully you will find a stallion to compliment your mare.


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## Fahrenheit (11 May 2012)

Magic, however good intending your comments on this thread were, it COULD be seen as you are enjoying being harsh, even when you say your not, when you then go and post a thread on a facebook group about 'upsetting a mare owner' on hho.


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## Bearskin (11 May 2012)

I think she looks rather nice.  Am looking for a bigger version for my partner!  

I would use a TB on her but if you want to keep the substance, maybe have a look at Sandy's Light, a good solid type with a great attitude. (He is quite tall though so may not suit.  Will look for a smaller version!)


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## PorkChop (11 May 2012)

I personally don't think you would go far wrong by crossing her with an Anglo Arab, they are usually short coupled, super movers and add quality.


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## AdorableAlice (11 May 2012)

Draught or ISH to get substance and a steady pleasure horse.

Archie.


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## magic104 (11 May 2012)

Bezique said:



			Magic, however good intending your comments on this thread were, it COULD be seen as you are enjoying being harsh, even when you say your not, when you then go and post a thread on a facebook group about 'upsetting a mare owner' on hho.
		
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Which is a closed page only open to those members, so thanks [content removed].  And for those that are not members of the group you may as well see what was posted!

"Oh well have just started the day off by upsetting a mare owner. I must admit I wish I had ignored the post, but some people really do expect an awful lot from the stallion. What I do know is she will get a lot of support on H&H from people telling her the mare is lovely & this or that stallion would be ideal."

And I was correct, she has had a lot of support, which is what I expected.  I also expected people not to read the post & put in words not used ie I never told her NOT to breed neither did I say to purchase a foal as it was the cheaper option.


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## AdorableAlice (11 May 2012)

magic104 said:



			Which is a closed page only open to those members, so thanks [content removed].  And for those that are not members of the group you may as well see what was posted!

"Oh well have just started the day off by upsetting a mare owner. I must admit I wish I had ignored the post, but some people really do expect an awful lot from the stallion. What I do know is she will get a lot of support on H&H from people telling her the mare is lovely & this or that stallion would be ideal."

And I was correct, she has had a lot of support, which is what I expected.  I also expected people not to read the post & put in words not used ie I never told her NOT to breed neither did I say to purchase a foal as it was the cheaper option.
		
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Lively debate, that is what forums are for.  We all have differing thoughts, views and ideas, good, bad or indifferent. 

The OP quite clearly stated she has the finance/facilities and time to breed from her much loved and useful cob mare.  She clearly stated she did not expect to breed the next Big Star or Minors Frolic.  What is wrong with the OP trying to breed an all rounder for her own use.  It is ridiculous to say the resultant foal would be unsaleable should anything happen to the OP.  You only have to look at the wanted adverts, there are far more  people trying to buy a comfortable rock steady neddy to potter about on and enjoy.  Not everyone wants Star Ship Enterprise warmbloods.

Poor OP, fabulous user name MouseInTheHouse - love it, has been murdered on her first post on the forum.  Have a go at me instead - who would breed off this mare then - choose a stallion for her.


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## MouseintheHouse (11 May 2012)

Hi again,

Thank you everyone for your replies, advice and suggestions - in response:

The quality of the photos are not the best, as tristar pointed out, she is stood with her front legs underneath her - her pasterns aren't quite so upright - that's photos for you! Also tristar good training and manners is very close to my heart!

As Jamana points out, I don't want a performance horse, I just want a straight forward, allrounder, everyday best friend - which is what my mare is like. It took me 3 years of looking on and off to find her, she is the 'paragon of virtue' that so many of the wanted ads on the likes of horsequest are after, but how often do they find them? I can hack her anywhere, without having ridden her for a month, and she won't put a foot wrong and we can go for a safe exhilarating gallop on the beach too. If it came down to it, I believe a family friend type horse is very saleable, even if their conformation is less than perfect.

I totally understand that things can and do go wrong, circumstances can and do change, that's why I have given it so much consideration. 

I unfortunately don't have any photos of her first foal, but I was led to believe the stallion might have been ID or IDx.

Magic104 - I have taken onboard everything you have said (as I have with everone elses advice) because this is what I asked for. You have not upset me - I am way to broad shouldered for that.

Thank you AdorableAlice, I think your mare is lovely!


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## magic104 (11 May 2012)

MouseintheHouse said:



			Hi again

I unfortunately don't have any photos of her first foal, but I was led to believe the stallion might have been ID or IDx.

Magic104 - I have taken onboard everything you have said (as I have with everone elses advice) because this is what I asked for. You have not upset me - I am way to broad shouldered for that.

Thank you AdorableAlice, I think your mare is lovely!
		
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Good for you.  There is no shortage of stallions, it is just a shame that this stupid forum does not allow them to come forward with suggestions along with examples of their stock.  That is really what you need, stallion owners showing you what their boys are producing from mares like yours.  Except some sad stupid person will push a button moaning that they are advertising, so perhaps you will get a few PM's instead.


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## magic104 (11 May 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			Lively debate, that is what forums are for.  We all have differing thoughts, views and ideas, good, bad or indifferent. 

The OP quite clearly stated she has the finance/facilities and time to breed from her much loved and useful cob mare.  She clearly stated she did not expect to breed the next Big Star or Minors Frolic.  What is wrong with the OP trying to breed an all rounder for her own use.  It is ridiculous to say the resultant foal would be unsaleable should anything happen to the OP.  You only have to look at the wanted adverts, there are far more  people trying to buy a comfortable rock steady neddy to potter about on and enjoy.  Not everyone wants Star Ship Enterprise warmbloods.

Poor OP, fabulous user name MouseInTheHouse - love it, has been murdered on her first post on the forum.  Have a go at me instead - who would breed off this mare then - choose a stallion for her.





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Would it not be boring if we all thought the same?  I would hardly think she was murdered on her first post, a bit extream.  There is nothing wrong with the OP trying to breed an all rounder & I certainly never told her not to for god knows how many times tonight I said I would not breed, not that she should not, I as in me.  Also who is to say that the result would be a comfortable rock steady needy that you could potter about on & enjoy?  First of all mum may not pass on her temperment, secondly the offspring may not get the education (not aimed at you poster, just in case you had to sell) needed.


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## EstherYoung (12 May 2012)

I think you do need to be very critical yourself before you make the decision. There are an awful lot of horses out there that need homes and do you really want to bring another into the world? Ethically? Morally? We bought Wolf as a weanling and Felix as a yearling and we haven't missed out one bit on the 'story' of their conceptions and birth as they were both bred by people we knew well. I knew them both since they were a twinkle in their respective mother's eyes and I even have Wolfie's scan pictures. But, doing it that way took out the risk as when we made the decision to buy we knew what we were getting.

If you are going to do it:
- Research, research, research. Try and find out as much as you can about your mare's background. How is she bred? Track down her last foal. Look at that foal critically.
- Be brutally honest with yourself. What faults does your mare have? If you've found the last foal, do those faults show in that horse too?
- Try and stick to a pure breed. If the mare is a bit of a mixture you don't want to add more mixture to the pot as it increases your chances of getting something completely random. Pick a stallion that is very strong in the areas your mare is weak. A sensible, workmanlike chestnut arab wouldn't be a terrible idea - it would give you your all rounder with the benefit of being eligible for PBA classes and would give you a good chance of getting a pally like mum.
- Meet the stallion. Don't just choose from pics on t'interweb. Temperament is key. You're looking for a well put together stallion who is as kind and easy as mum is.
- Don't expect it to be an easy ride. Expect vets bills. Getting them to four years old without too many suicide attempts is a job in itself.
- You could lose mum. I say this again. You could lose mum. I took my stud exams when I was younger and I've worked on some very large studs and seen a lot of foalings, some of which went horribly wrong. You could lose mum in the most horrendous way possible. Baby may get stuck and have to be cut out in pieces with cheesewire. Could you cope with that? Foals are amazing and beautiful and an incredible feat of nature but nature is also brutal and heartbreaking. You need to weigh up the risks and be honest with yourself.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

ps Also think whether you have the facilities/knowledge for a youngster. I was very lucky to find some local youngstock livery where ours can have the upbringing I have always believed a young horse should have, but if I hadn't found that then I wouldn't have bought youngsters. A single boisterous youngster in a field with just grumpy older shod horses is a recipe for disaster.


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## classic_astra (12 May 2012)

another post that ends up with people answering an imaginary question! the OP didnt ask IF she should breed her mare. 

i think she is a lovely useful type of mare, very similar to my own, i too wanted to breed one from her, to be my next allrounder, focusing on more jumping than anything. bred her to a dutch warmblood, not because they were in fashion but because he ticked all of my boxes. my dream was a coloured filly, and im very lucky that i got one! she is now 2, and i couldnt go out and buy anything that was more suited to me at the moment! (obviously i know shes 2 and could be a madam under saddle  ) but anyway, if it were me, id look into tb x native types, or maybe tb x id that stamp their stock and improve on your mares conformation. even an old fashion warmblood (chunkier build) would work well on her i think. 

plenty of nice useful stallion with very nice offspring around, so im afraid you'll have a job to narrow them down to particular type you want to see! lol i dont envy you, took me 2 years to choose mine! 

good luck


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## Alba (12 May 2012)

I am sorry people have been so rude to you and about your horse, have jumped to lots of conclusiions without questioning you about her.  Also the suggestions of stallions when you have clearly stated what you didn't want and they have just ignored you.

As for her not passing on her temperment etc, well thats the risk we all take WITH everything we breed and it didn't stop the people replying so why should it you.

I am not in the market of this type of stallion so I can not help you but I just wanted to say that I hope the rude people haven't put you off posting again.

Good luck, and I hope you have a much fun and love for her offspring as you obviously do her.


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## Maesfen (12 May 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			Draught or ISH to get substance and a steady pleasure horse.

Archie.
		
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Me too, I wouldn't want to refine her myself, she comes into the hen's teeth league of what most amateurs want but can't find.

I would love a corking mare like that but I would probably enjoy her far too much to allow her time out for a family!   If I did, it would be to either a TB, an Anglo or an ID if I wanted to keep her bone.

Not sure where in the country you are OP but Embla Stud near Stafford have some cracking all purpose (ID) stallions that are producing some very nice stock plus a very nice graded coloured in Bazaars Texas (the two in my avatar are by him; both have perfect temperaments and ability)

Have a look on the IDHS site stallion list, there are some beauties on there (including part-breds) which might whet your appetite!


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## Carefreegirl (12 May 2012)

For what it's worth I'm breeding from my mare this year, she's nothing special (apart from to me) she's the horse in my sig, she's an ex-racer who has got me to Hickstead in the ROR finals, we qualified for trailblazers finals last and this year. We'll set the world alight but we muddle along nicely.
When I mentioned to YO about breeding (I keep her at a stud) she said get as many opinions as I could so apart from all my soppy mates who went 'awww' I asked my farrier - he said no. One instructor (FBHS) said yep. Other instructor said yep and the vet who I dreaded asking said "perfect". 
This foal is keepsies, and yes we never know what's round the corner but if we worried about the what ifs we'd never have horses in the first place.
On first reading magics reply I cringed but a written message is very black and White unlike the spoken word with the tones of your voice. 
Like the OP I could go out tomorrow and buy another horse off the track but been there, done that. 
I hope with the list of bloody experienced people in my phone and on this forum and also having kept my horse at a stud, seeing the highs and lows of breeding, it will all be well and this time next year I'll be boring the tits off you all with pics of my new foaly.


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## Carefreegirl (12 May 2012)

That should say 'NEVER set the world alight' 
On phone so can't edit


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## The_snoopster (12 May 2012)

If you are really serious about breeding from your mare get someone in to take a long look at her and point out her faults then go look for a stallion who may improve on them, this is what I do when I bred from my "happy hacker". I then went on a internet trawl of local stud yard and went to have a look in person at them, I like you wanted to just have a everyday type of horse and if I am honest a bit of my mare to love when she retired or pts as she was getting older.
I found when I did look around for a everyday horse I was simply surrounded by coloured cob (nothing wrong in that as my mare is one), but I did want something a bit more sportier  I found a lovely appiano WBx who complimented my mare wonderfully.
Be warned it does work out more expensive than you think it not just the stud fee you have to be prepared for lots of other bills on top like scanning, vets fees etc. Plus you do lose out on riding your mare for what seems forever, if she is your only horse.
I got exactly what I wanted, she foaled at home I got a filly and I got spots, it was truly a most perfect outcome. The resulting filly as all of her dams temprement, easy to do in everyway so far. Good luck with what ever you choose to do.


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## magic104 (12 May 2012)

carefreegirl said:



			For what it's worth I'm breeding from my mare this year, she's nothing special (apart from to me) she's the horse in my sig, she's an ex-racer who has got me to Hickstead in the ROR finals, we qualified for trailblazers finals last and this year. We'll set the world alight but we muddle along nicely.
When I mentioned to YO about breeding (I keep her at a stud) she said get as many opinions as I could so apart from all my soppy mates who went 'awww' I asked my farrier - he said no. One instructor (FBHS) said yep. Other instructor said yep and the vet who I dreaded asking said "perfect". 
This foal is keepsies, and yes we never know what's round the corner but if we worried about the what ifs we'd never have horses in the first place.
On first reading magics reply I cringed but a written message is very black and White unlike the spoken word with the tones of your voice. 
Like the OP I could go out tomorrow and buy another horse off the track but been there, done that. 
I hope with the list of bloody experienced people in my phone and on this forum and also having kept my horse at a stud, seeing the highs and lows of breeding, it will all be well and this time next year I'll be boring the tits off you all with pics of my new foaly. 

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You have a couple of advantages over the posters mare.  1) You have a TB, so a full pedigree & a way of tracing her gene pool.  2) She has been raced even if only once she would have been in training beforehand & come out sound.  

With all due respect the mare here is of unknow quantity & is not showing a physic of a horse in regular work.  The photo's are showing a number of weaknesses which is a lot for a stallion to counter-balance.  For me it is too big a gamble, but that is not to say she wont give her owner what she hopes for so long as she is careful with her choice of stallion.

For yourself you have less obstacles to overcome, but like all of us have to choose a stallion that compliments your mares weaknesses.  Good luck to both of you, despite what posters keep harping on about, I have not told this poster not to breed or even indicated to her not to.  I gave my opinion on her mare (Any constructive critisism (sp?) on her confirmation welcome!), & MY view.  If everytime someone is blunt & to the point, they get accused of being like KR then we will be lumbered with pink fluffy kiss ur Ass replies.

It takes too long sometimes to word things in a way that cant be taken as rude.  Honesty sometimes comes with a price!


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## Alba (13 May 2012)

Nobody accused you (Magic) of being like KR, but if you want to read it that way then fine, I really dont care.  But you can read the post again and see that it actually says 'If it was KR  who had type what you did Magic then you would all be screaming how dare he dictate'....  That doesn't even IMPLY you are like KR (whom I dont actually know so cant compare anyone to him) - it is purely pointing out the double standards and what some people are allowed to get away with when others would be hung for.
If you really want to know what upset so many people, it was that you went to another site to brag and get pats on the back for what you had put here.  So that, on top of the original extremely rude comment is not very endearing to most people.  Now you will probably say, 'I wasn't bragging or attempting to get pats on the back', which maybe true, but thats how it came across whether you like it or not.


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## Fahrenheit (13 May 2012)

magic104 said:



			Which is a closed page only open to those members, so thanks [content removed].  And for those that are not members of the group you may as well see what was posted!
		
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A page with nearly 200 members, most of which are also members of this forum, who when reading your thread on there then started coming on here to see the thread concerned and what you had written... why not just put your opinion across and leave it as that, rather than going else where to draw more attention to your scathing comments of another persons horse, which they love dearly. You can give critism and contructive critism without being so harsh!!

Oh and as for using my personal information, I could lower myself to your standard but I have more grace.



Alba said:



			If you really want to know what upset so many people, it was that you went to another site to brag and get pats on the back for what you had put here.  So that, on top of the original extremely rude comment is not very endearing to most people.  Now you will probably say, 'I wasn't bragging or attempting to get pats on the back', which maybe true, but thats how it came across whether you like it or not.
		
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Thats how it came across to me too!


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## magic104 (13 May 2012)

Bezique said:



			A page with nearly 200 members, most of which are also members of this forum, who when reading your thread on there then started coming on here to see the thread concerned and what you had written... why not just put your opinion across and leave it as that, rather than going else where to draw more attention to your scathing comments of another persons horse, which they love dearly. You can give critism and contructive critism without being so harsh!!

Oh and as for using my personal information, I could lower myself to your standard but I have more grace.



Thats how it came across to me too!
		
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No you chose to read it as a brag.  You dont know me well enough to make that assumption, so how bloody dare you.  Personal information well you yourself have just stated "A page with nearly 200 members, most of which are also members of this forum" all of who when the page was set up put both their names & H&H user name to identify themselves.  And with due respect most of the people on that page know who you are so not really a big secret now is it.

Sometimes you people really do make my blood boil you just have to cause an argument for no reason.  My thoughts on the mare were invited as were everyone elses.  Yes she is a nice mare with a lovely temperment, but a mare worthy of passing on her genes?  Really!! 

Someone has said these horses are like hens teeth, no they are not.  There are 100's of safe weight carrying horses/ponies out there if you care to look.  There are 100's of ill thought of badly bought on horses/ponies.  Bred by people who have no idea how to teach their youngster manners, how to behave around humans.  Who have such poor conformation issues they become bad tempered because they are uncomfortable.  

People continue to give stallion suggestions on nothing more then a discription, how the hell does that work.  So yes my feelings on improving UK breeding is just that, while there is little thought of what we are doing then we wont make any headway.  If we breed just because we like our pet, then no we wont improve on the stock we have.  You have to have a decent base, 1 or 2 things you can get away with but some of you seem to want to breed no matter what.  

It seems to me that you twist things when it suits, you cause arguments that are not warrented.  I am not known for my beating about the bush, pink fluffy comments.  There are plenty of occassions I have just sat on my hands because I know that I cant put across what I mean without someone taking offence that is not there to take.  Well I hope this post is clear & this one you can take offence at with my blessing.

If you really want to improve UK breeding stop, think, stop & think again before breeding from your pet mare.  When you still want to breed then take off the rose tinted glasses & take a good hard look.  If you choose to come on here then put up decent photos showing side on as well as front & hind shots.  NO ONE & I MEAN NO ONE can make a judgement call regarding suitable stallions without seeing the mare or at least decent photos.  Even then we have no idea how she moves or uses herself.  Lack of a pedigree is going to cause issues & you are naive to think otherwise.  It also seems that only a few people are permitted to point out the pit-falls otherwise you are seen as negative.  Well sorry but there are things that we forget about, the issues that can occur so there is nothing wrong in reminding potentional breeders especially those new to it.  

Now hopefully this is the end & all you knowedgable people can give the poster some decent suggestions for her mare instead of harping on at me over things you think I am saying or thinking.  Have a nice day!!


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## PinkWheelBarrow (13 May 2012)

magic104- To be honest it is fair that MouseintheHouse has quite clearly asked for your oppinion and has stated that she was not offended by your opinion. I personally think that it was harsh, you may not think that she should breed from her, but she has clearly stated that she would like to have her foal for pleasure rides etc, therefore the reasons you have stated are not helpful to MouseintheHouse. She also put that she would like stallion choices. She is not 'all that is wrong with british breeding' and quite frankly i find that very rude. In the early days were horses used for showing, dressage etc? No they were not, so horse riding is not just about showing/competing and 1st place for some.

MouseintheHouse- As i have a horse for hacking, beach riding etc, i personally like your mare, and I think there should be more of them.


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## magic104 (13 May 2012)

PinkWheelBarrow said:



			magic104- To be honest it is fair that MouseintheHouse has quite clearly asked for your oppinion and has stated that she was not offended by your opinion. I personally think that it was harsh, you may not think that she should breed from her, but she has clearly stated that she would like to have her foal for pleasure rides etc, therefore the reasons you have stated are not helpful to MouseintheHouse. She also put that she would like stallion choices. She is not 'all that is wrong with british breeding' and quite frankly i find that very rude. In the early days were horses used for showing, dressage etc? No they were not, so horse riding is not just about showing/competing and 1st place for some.

MouseintheHouse- As i have a horse for hacking, beach riding etc, i personally like your mare, and I think there should be more of them. 

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It is still no excuse not to use decent foundation stock regardless of its job.  The other issue here is that people have managed to turn this right round & avoid actually giving mounintheHouse suggestions of stallions to use that will improve on her mare to give her the foal she wants.  At least she had the sense to put up a photo, so regardless of MY opinion others can see & advise her.  This is the last post I make on this.  I suggest you are best placed putting your efforts into Stallion suggestions & actually justify why you are suggesting said stallion.  Come on all you experts because this time you actually have a photo, well done MouseintheHouse.

If she makes the right choice she stands a good chance of getting what she wants.  So lets stop wasting her time & get on with it!!


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## Fahrenheit (13 May 2012)

magic104 said:



			No you chose to read it as a brag.  You dont know me well enough to make that assumption, so how bloody dare you.  Personal information well you yourself have just stated "A page with nearly 200 members, most of which are also members of this forum" all of who when the page was set up put both their names & H&H user name to identify themselves.  And with due respect most of the people on that page know who you are so not really a big secret now is it.
		
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If you read my original post properly on here it said 'COULD' and its true it COULD look like you were enjoying being harsh and it not just me that thought that.

Has for personal information, I have no problem with anyone on the facebook group knowing who I am, otherwise I wouldn't have joined the group, however you chose to publish my personal info onto this forum, not just a quote and remember your the one that chose to start a thread on the facebook group to draw attention to this thread and what you had written on here.


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## JoBird (13 May 2012)

Here is a stallion suggestion: 
Psynergy  Mahalias Marcus 

Owner: 	 Bill Nunn
Address: 	 Pinewood Lodge, Widmerpool, Nottingham
Telephone: 	 07971 784943

Chestnut Arab Stallion 15.1hh. AI and natural. 

A chestnut arab would hopefully refine the head and limbs slightly but not add too much height and give more chance of getting another palomino.  Hopefully he isnt too far from the OP.  Just an idea!


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## magic104 (13 May 2012)

JoBird said:



			Here is a stallion suggestion: 
Psynergy  Mahalias Marcus 

Owner: 	 Bill Nunn
Address: 	 Pinewood Lodge, Widmerpool, Nottingham
Telephone: 	 07971 784943

Chestnut Arab Stallion 15.1hh. AI and natural. 

A chestnut arab would hopefully refine the head and limbs slightly but not add too much height and give more chance of getting another palomino.  Hopefully he isnt too far from the OP.  Just an idea!
		
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I like him, & I agree with you he would suit this mare


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## Truly (13 May 2012)

I'm not getting into any other discussion on here other than the original post 

I can't see any photos so just my suggestion as in type of stallon to use.

If you want to breed a bigger version of your mare..same build..same temperament just bigger etc. then I suggest a nice Irish Draught or ISH (that isn't warmblood breeding) but has TBxIDxConnemara mix.

I don't know why people are suggesting Arabs, TB's or Warmbloods ? as you clearly state you want a sensible pleasure horse to ride, have fun on and keep, not a potential sporthorse.

Good Luck


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## Carefreegirl (13 May 2012)

Truly - bit of a sweeping statement re TB's, Arabs and WB's. I'm personally not into Arabs or WB's and until I got my mare that included TB's. My mare is the most chilled horse I've owned as is the Stallion I'm putting her to


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## Truly (13 May 2012)

Carefreegirl..It wasn't meant to be derogatory towards TB's Arabs and Warmbloods 

Nearly all mine are TB and two are Warmblood crosses..don't have any Arabs tho' 

Mine are all laidback sensible horses BUT I know for a fact that the liveries I have that own cobs on my yard would not be suitable to riding my horses....just not a suitable combination 

I have a livery yard with all sorts on and cobs 90% of the time are more laid back and suit an ammy rider better.

I just believe if the OP likes her cob the way she is then don't change the recipe


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## ester (13 May 2012)

carefreegirl said:



			Truly - bit of a sweeping statement re TB's, Arabs and WB's. I'm personally not into Arabs or WB's and until I got my mare that included TB's. My mare is the most chilled horse I've owned as is the Stallion I'm putting her to 

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no but the op specifically stated that she wanted to keep the mare's substance and an arab is most certainly not going to do that. I have been a little  by those suggestions too.


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## TART (13 May 2012)

So now i'm feeling guilty!!!! Why am I breding from a mare with no history???? I'll tell you why ..... she's not a star but she wants to be (I think that's very important) you can have all the breeding in the world but if they don't enjoy it then forget it ..... My 'rescue' horse has competed to BE 100 easily and if I'd found her earlier then ..... 
I'm on a yard with 80 other horses some were due to compete at Chatsworth & some only hack down the road - but all equally loved So kick my ass but have to say 'IF' I ever needed a home for my baby then I know it wouldn't be a problem!!!!


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## magic104 (13 May 2012)

TART said:



			So now i'm feeling guilty!!!! Why am I breding from a mare with no history???? I'll tell you why ..... she's not a star but she wants to be (I think that's very important) you can have all the breeding in the world but if they don't enjoy it then forget it ..... My 'rescue' horse has competed to BE 100 easily and if I'd found her earlier then ..... 
I'm on a yard with 80 other horses some were due to compete at Chatsworth & some only hack down the road - but all equally loved So kick my ass but have to say 'IF' I ever needed a home for my baby then I know it wouldn't be a problem!!!!
		
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Her lack of breeding combined with her conformation, lets not get hung up on one bit, it is the whole picture we are looking at.  

Using an Arab as an aged old improver is actually not a bad choice.  Arabs have good dense bone & at least used to be able to carry a full grown man with no problems.  They can improve movement which makes for a more comfortable ride when hacking out, including beach rides.  If you fancy a spot of showing either as a youngster or adult then it opens up the PBA classes.  If the poster requires a weight carrier then an ID or ISH would be more suitable then a traditional cob.  Using an Arab does not = trying to breed a sporthorse, same as breeding TB's does not = racing, lets not pigeon hole.


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## ester (13 May 2012)

no but using an arab does not = breeding a horse of substance/bone either!


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## magic104 (13 May 2012)

ester said:



			no but using an arab does not = breeding a horse of substance/bone either!
		
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I am looking to breed an allround pleasure horse, low level competing (RC) but mainly for long hacks, charity rides, trips to the beach etc. So the stallion needs to have an amazing laid back temperement also - nothing sharp or fizzy. Ideally offspring would mature not more than 16.2h.

I don't really want to add any 'blood' and would like to keep her substance! Bottom of the list - I'm not too keen on feathers or greys either

You want a balanced horse, & you have no idea what the mare will bring to the mix.  The Arab was just a sugestion as they are pure, so less mix of genes & the PBA can be a very versertile horse.  Janet George stands ID's she would have a better idea what the cross could add.  TBH that is what is needed here, more input from stallion owners who have seen & covered mares of this type.  They are the people who know their stallions & what they can contribute.


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## EstherYoung (14 May 2012)

Truly said:



			I just believe if the OP likes her cob the way she is then don't change the recipe 

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That's the thing though - we don't know what the recipe is. She's an unregistered cross-breed with an unknown history.

Adding arab is a very very old fashioned thing to do and is just one suggestion. You'd need to find an old fashioned stamp of arab to do it with for this mare - maybe one of the 'Old English'/crabbet stamp if you wanted smaller or possibly a Bahraini if you wanted bigger with bone (they are seriously substantial horses and there's an example of a cross with a heavier mare part way down this page: http://www.pearlislandarabians.co.uk/Stallions_at_stud/Dilmun/Krayaan_Dilmun.html ). You wouldn't get a firey nut job or a sports horse from the cross, you'd get an all round riding horse.

Adding Irish is another very old fashioned 'classic' approach and wouldn't necessarily be a terrible idea either. If you were to breed that is....


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## templewood (14 May 2012)

Interesting thread. I haven't read all the posts and can't see the photos, but agree that allrounders with good temperaments of between 15hh to 16hh are what most people want. One survey, that I think was done by the BHS a few years ago, found that about 80% of horseowners in the UK only hack. If you want an example of poor conformation, look at the front legs of Woodlander Farouche. Her owner admits that they aren't good, but she will be bred from, as she has other good attributes. The perfect horse doesn't exist! 
For what you want, I wouldn't choose an Arab or a WB, but as I said, I can't see the photos, so can't really make any suggestions.


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## Minxie (14 May 2012)

templewood said:



			If you want an example of poor conformation, look at the front legs of Woodlander Farouche. Her owner admits that they aren't good, but she will be bred from, as she has other good attributes. The perfect horse doesn't exist!.
		
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I had the pleasure of 'meeting' the late TB racing stallion Celtic Swing at the Irish National Stud.  His handler there was saying he was throwing the most hideous duck ugly off spring.  But many of these later became group one winners.  They had poor conformation but could run like cheetahs - which is exactly what their owners were looking for and needed.

Now don't yell but ...   

 ... is there not an arguement which says we should be breeding according to NEED, not a type. By breeding to fulfill a need would mean there would be few unwanted horses kicking around.  

If Templewood's stats are right and 80% of horse owners only hack and presumably 20% for competition would people be more successful catering to the 80% 

I have to admit I don't understand the arguement about having to sell a horse on and that having a known stallion would be better for this.  My mare was bred by Irish travellers (although as it happens I know her sire and dam called Thunder and Suzie )  I could sell her 50 times over as she's a cracking family pony.  But over the last two years I've seen wee 'show' ponies and horses all with good pedigree's that aren't shifting at all - or if they are for a lot less money than probably deserved. 

Just saying


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## magic104 (14 May 2012)

templewood said:



			Interesting thread. I haven't read all the posts and can't see the photos, but agree that allrounders with good temperaments of between 15hh to 16hh are what most people want. One survey, that I think was done by the BHS a few years ago, found that about 80% of horseowners in the UK only hack. If you want an example of poor conformation, look at the front legs of Woodlander Farouche. Her owner admits that they aren't good, but she will be bred from, as she has other good attributes. The perfect horse doesn't exist! 
For what you want, I wouldn't choose an Arab or a WB, but as I said, I can't see the photos, so can't really make any suggestions.
		
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"Her owner admits that they aren't good, but she will be bred from, as she has other good attributes"

Compared to no known breeding, more then 2 conformation faults & no indication it does enough work to test its soundness.  Yes I can see why she should have another foal.


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## magic104 (14 May 2012)

Minxie said:



			I had the pleasure of 'meeting' the late TB racing stallion Celtic Swing at the Irish National Stud.  His handler there was saying he was throwing the most hideous duck ugly off spring.  But many of these later became group one winners.  They had poor conformation but could run like cheetahs - which is exactly what their owners were looking for and needed.

Now don't yell but ...   

 ... is there not an arguement which says we should be breeding according to NEED, not a type. By breeding to fulfill a need would mean there would be few unwanted horses kicking around.  

If Templewood's stats are right and 80% of horse owners only hack and presumably 20% for competition would people be more successful catering to the 80% 

I have to admit I don't understand the arguement about having to sell a horse on and that having a known stallion would be better for this.  My mare was bred by Irish travellers (although as it happens I know her sire and dam called Thunder and Suzie )  I could sell her 50 times over as she's a cracking family pony.  But over the last two years I've seen wee 'show' ponies and horses all with good pedigree's that aren't shifting at all - or if they are for a lot less money than probably deserved. 

Just saying 

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No one is yelling, but there are plenty of breeders already catering for the 80% along with the many 1 mare owners breeding from their mare.  It surely does not mean that we use stock that have more the 2 or 3 conformation faults on top of no known breeding on top of no performance record, (including everyday hacking) to prove it can stay sound?  I am at a loss to understand how that is making improvements on UK breeding.  If such a great job is being done why are the charities at bursting point?  Why are horses fetching peanuts if there is such a shortage of weight carrying horses with good temperments?  I am sure some people are getting the money for them, but there are an awful lot more that are struggling to get a good price.

I suspect this was nothing but a sh&tstirring post anyway so one of the missing photos is here


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## Colleen_Miss_Tom (14 May 2012)

Doesn't matter how good a stallion you have, if a mare has conformational faults, there is no guarantee you will produce a "correct" youngster .

Personally I wouldn't put the above mare into foal .....Unless you are 100% sure you are going to be offering a life time home, There is far too many unwanted youngsters and foals out there to last a life time . 


Yes I know the op asked what stallion would best compliment her mare .....No one knows ....A stallion cannot correct a mares conformational fault ....its just luck of the draw when it comes to breeding and thats even with a graded mare .


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## Colleen_Miss_Tom (14 May 2012)

Welcome to the world of HHO .....nothing changes then lol . 



Col x


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## Monkers (14 May 2012)

magic104 said:



			I do not believe mouseinthehouse had any intention.  I think this thread was started by a coward who wanted to start an argument, because this forum is incapable of debating.  I had already noticed that they were in & out monitoring this thread yet only made 2 posts.  I kinda guessed something was off, but never mind I have learnt something these past couple of days & I am now going to be a bit more careful about who I accept as a friend.

So well done mouseinahouse, lets hope you dont stumble into someone elses trap!!
		
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I really don't think Mouseinthe house is a troll. I think she has been quite mature to stay out of this awful thread that has slated her horse and her decision to breed from her. She seems to have removed the pictures of her mare and I can't say I blame her, I would have done the same. I really think you should remove the photo of her horse from your post Magic, she would have every right to be furious that you have posted it.


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## Colleen_Miss_Tom (14 May 2012)

Why did the OP remove the photo in the first place ?


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## Maesfen (14 May 2012)

Colleen_Miss_Tom said:



			Why did the OP remove the photo in the first place ?
		
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TBH, if I had been slated so badly (or rather my horse) I would have removed it too.  There are ways and means to explain nicely, no need for feelings to have been murdered in the way they were.  I don't blame anyone for removing pics if they have been ridiculed so thoroughly especially as half the thread now revolves around those said comments.  It's especially very unfair (and bad form) for a bad copy of one of those pics to have been posted by someone else to prove a point.
Whether OP is/was a troll or not is neither here nor there but it was not very nice seeing her mare pulled apart with such venom; nobody deserves that.


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## Colleen_Miss_Tom (15 May 2012)

If the OP was a troll, I think it does make a difference . 

Nothing wrong with people posting their opinion, The post made by magic at the start of this thread is what seemed to have sparked off "a debate" .....I actually agree with what she said to be honest . I didn't see it as rude ....just someone's opinion . 

Not everyone is going to agree ....


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## magic104 (15 May 2012)

Maesfen said:



			TBH, if I had been slated so badly (or rather my horse) I would have removed it too.  There are ways and means to explain nicely, no need for feelings to have been murdered in the way they were.  I don't blame anyone for removing pics if they have been ridiculed so thoroughly especially as half the thread now revolves around those said comments.  It's especially very unfair (and bad form) for a bad copy of one of those pics to have been posted by someone else to prove a point.
Whether OP is/was a troll or not is neither here nor there but it was not very nice seeing her mare pulled apart with such venom; nobody deserves that.
		
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Pulled apart with such venom?????  Where exactly??
Thankfully there are plenty on here that will give you suggestions on stallions, for me your mare is not good enough to breed from. Judging by the photos obvious conformation problems, long backed, shallow feet, upright pasterns. She also looks to be built down hill, it is just not enough to have a good temperment. To add to it all you have no idea of how she is made up as you dont know her breeding. You are going to find a stallion who really stamps his stock, Legrand & Htobago seem to do that, though if I had a stallion I would be worried about using him on this mare. 

The harsh reality is your circumstances could change where you are not able to keep the offspring & unless she has a fantastic competition record it will never bring back the cost of getting it on the ground. I am truely sorry, but I for one think this mare represents all that is wrong in UK breeding. I honestly do not mean to be harsh, & I feel awful, as you obviously love her very much, but think very hard on your choice of stallion. As I said you will get plenty of suggestions & there will be others who think your mare is suitable. As she has already bred a foal, who was the sire & do you have any photos to give an indication of the sort of foal she can produce? 

MouseintheHouse - At least you put photos up of your mare, which so many posters of "which/what stallion" don't. My comments are my opinion, nothing more. If you want to inject some movement then look at Legrand who may also shorten up the offspring. Or an arab thereby producing a PBA which opens up showing classes. There are so many stallions to choose from, so it may come down to budget, what stud fee you want to pay etc. Take a good look at her offspring (if this is possible), what has she passed on? What would you want to improve on (though helps to know what the stallion was like). As you don't know her breeding then her previous foal will be your only indication as to what she might bring to the mix. None of us have any say in what we get, we can only put together the parents in the hope of improving on them. Don't forget the hidden costs either, as so many of us have found out when things don't go to plan.

I say this all the time, don't breed with the attitude "It's a keeper, its for life". Life has a habit of throwing curve balls at us. You need to breed something that has a market. I honestly wish you luck & hopefully you will find a stallion to compliment your mare. 

"Oh well have just started the day off by upsetting a mare owner. I must admit I wish I had ignored the post, but some people really do expect an awful lot from the stallion. What I do know is she will get a lot of support on H&H from people telling her the mare is lovely & this or that stallion would be ideal."

Magic104 - I have taken onboard everything you have said (as I have with everone elses advice) because this is what I asked for. You have not upset me - I am way to broad shouldered for that.
Good for you. There is no shortage of stallions, it is just a shame that this stupid forum does not allow them to come forward with suggestions along with examples of their stock. That is really what you need, stallion owners showing you what their boys are producing from mares like yours. Except some sad stupid person will push a button moaning that they are advertising, so perhaps you will get a few PM's instead. 

Would it not be boring if we all thought the same? I would hardly think she was murdered on her first post, a bit extream. There is nothing wrong with the OP trying to breed an all rounder & I certainly never told her not to for god knows how many times tonight I said I would not breed, not that she should not, I as in me. Also who is to say that the result would be a comfortable rock steady needy that you could potter about on & enjoy? First of all mum may not pass on her temperment, secondly the offspring may not get the education (not aimed at you poster, just in case you had to sell) needed
You have a couple of advantages over the posters mare. 1) You have a TB, so a full pedigree & a way of tracing her gene pool. 2) She has been raced even if only once she would have been in training beforehand & come out sound. 

With all due respect the mare here is of unknow quantity & is not showing a physic of a horse in regular work. The photo's are showing a number of weaknesses which is a lot for a stallion to counter-balance. For me it is too big a gamble, but that is not to say she wont give her owner what she hopes for so long as she is careful with her choice of stallion.

For yourself you have less obstacles to overcome, but like all of us have to choose a stallion that compliments your mares weaknesses. Good luck to both of you, despite what posters keep harping on about, I have not told this poster not to breed or even indicated to her not to. I gave my opinion on her mare (Any constructive critisism (sp?) on her confirmation welcome!), & MY view. If everytime someone is blunt & to the point, they get accused of being like KR then we will be lumbered with pink fluffy kiss ur Ass replies.

It takes too long sometimes to word things in a way that cant be taken as rude. Honesty sometimes comes with a price!
No you chose to read it as a brag. You dont know me well enough to make that assumption, so how bloody dare you. Personal information well you yourself have just stated "A page with nearly 200 members, most of which are also members of this forum" all of who when the page was set up put both their names & H&H user name to identify themselves. And with due respect most of the people on that page know who you are so not really a big secret now is it.

Sometimes you people really do make my blood boil you just have to cause an argument for no reason. My thoughts on the mare were invited as were everyone elses. Yes she is a nice mare with a lovely temperment, but a mare worthy of passing on her genes? Really!! 

Someone has said these horses are like hens teeth, no they are not. There are 100's of safe weight carrying horses/ponies out there if you care to look. There are 100's of ill thought of badly bought on horses/ponies. Bred by people who have no idea how to teach their youngster manners, how to behave around humans. Who have such poor conformation issues they become bad tempered because they are uncomfortable. 

People continue to give stallion suggestions on nothing more then a discription, how the hell does that work. So yes my feelings on improving UK breeding is just that, while there is little thought of what we are doing then we wont make any headway. If we breed just because we like our pet, then no we wont improve on the stock we have. You have to have a decent base, 1 or 2 things you can get away with but some of you seem to want to breed no matter what. 

It seems to me that you twist things when it suits, you cause arguments that are not warrented. I am not known for my beating about the bush, pink fluffy comments. There are plenty of occassions I have just sat on my hands because I know that I cant put across what I mean without someone taking offence that is not there to take. Well I hope this post is clear & this one you can take offence at with my blessing.

If you really want to improve UK breeding stop, think, stop & think again before breeding from your pet mare. When you still want to breed then take off the rose tinted glasses & take a good hard look. If you choose to come on here then put up decent photos showing side on as well as front & hind shots. NO ONE & I MEAN NO ONE can make a judgement call regarding suitable stallions without seeing the mare or at least decent photos. Even then we have no idea how she moves or uses herself. Lack of a pedigree is going to cause issues & you are naive to think otherwise. It also seems that only a few people are permitted to point out the pit-falls otherwise you are seen as negative. Well sorry but there are things that we forget about, the issues that can occur so there is nothing wrong in reminding potentional breeders especially those new to it. 

Now hopefully this is the end & all you knowedgable people can give the poster some decent suggestions for her mare instead of harping on at me over things you think I am saying or thinking. Have a nice day!!
It is still no excuse not to use decent foundation stock regardless of its job. The other issue here is that people have managed to turn this right round & avoid actually giving mounintheHouse suggestions of stallions to use that will improve on her mare to give her the foal she wants. At least she had the sense to put up a photo, so regardless of MY opinion others can see & advise her. This is the last post I make on this. I suggest you are best placed putting your efforts into Stallion suggestions & actually justify why you are suggesting said stallion. Come on all you experts because this time you actually have a photo, well done MouseintheHouse.


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## magic104 (15 May 2012)

If she makes the right choice she stands a good chance of getting what she wants. So lets stop wasting her time & get on with it!!
I like him, & I agree with you he would suit this mare

Her lack of breeding combined with her conformation, lets not get hung up on one bit, it is the whole picture we are looking at. 

Using an Arab as an aged old improver is actually not a bad choice. Arabs have good dense bone & at least used to be able to carry a full grown man with no problems. They can improve movement which makes for a more comfortable ride when hacking out, including beach rides. If you fancy a spot of showing either as a youngster or adult then it opens up the PBA classes. If the poster requires a weight carrier then an ID or ISH would be more suitable then a traditional cob. Using an Arab does not = trying to breed a sporthorse, same as breeding TB's does not = racing, lets not pigeon hole. 

You want a balanced horse, & you have no idea what the mare will bring to the mix. The Arab was just a sugestion as they are pure, so less mix of genes & the PBA can be a very versertile horse. Janet George stands ID's she would have a better idea what the cross could add. TBH that is what is needed here, more input from stallion owners who have seen & covered mares of this type. They are the people who know their stallions & what they can contribute


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## Alec Swan (15 May 2012)

Colleen_Miss_Tom said:



			Why did the OP remove the photo in the first place ?
		
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Maesfen said:



			TBH, if I had been slated so badly (or rather my horse) I would have removed it too.  
.......
		
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Accepting that I'm rather late into this daft debate,  and assuming that that's what it is,  I take it that the little mare pic,  posted by magic,  is the mare in question,  yes?  

It's an awful pic,  of what is probably a nice little horse.  The pic is so awful,  that no one could,  or should,   judge her on that.  That said,  if the said pic is the subject mare in question,  then how would I look to improve things?  That would depend on what I was hoping to produce.  This now becomes *ME,*  and what *I* would do!.......

I'd want to give the resultant foal a little height,  and I'd probably want to refine it a little.  Assuming the mare to be at about 14hh(?) I'd look for a small TB,  or an Arab with as much substance as I could fined,  OR!! a smart Connemara,  or even a really tidy Welshman,  one with legs!!

OP,  don't be disheartened,  what ever the temptation,  ignore the experts,  and do as you will.  Who's horse is it anyway? 

Alec.


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## AdorableAlice (15 May 2012)

Having had the pleasure of chatting the MouseInTheHouse privately I can assure the doubters that the lovely lady is very similar to myself in what she is trying to achieve from breeding a foal from her family cob.

She is most certainly not a troll.  She did exactly as I did in using the forum to look for informed guidance and advice.

We both have enough money and facilites to have a foal and we both have a desire to have a homebred foal that is capable of taking us hacking in our old age. We both plan to keep the foals and are not worrying about after sale.

I have bred from a less than perfect, mongrel, no competition record and common in many peoples view, mare. I am sure many had a good laugh at the picture of my black cob mare posted earlier in this thread. The OP may breed from her palomino mare, and I can fully understand if she removed the picture after such negative comments.

I wish the OP every success if she does fulfill her hope of breeding her next best friend and family horse, which will give her much pleasure in years to come, I don't suppose the OP will mind if it doesn't win a rossette.

I have fulfilled my dream and with careful research and a touch of luck I am looking forward to many hours of pleasure riding as I enjoy my pensionable years.

I paid £200 for that black cob mare.  The stud fee was more, the keep and other costs more again, I hear you laughing, possibly rightly so, but I don't think I went far wrong.  I could have bought in, as I have done previously, but chose not to and went on to enjoy the stress of breeding my first foal.

Good luck MouseInTheHouse, I hope your cob mare gives you one like this to take you galloping on the beach.


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## Amymay (15 May 2012)

Lovely foal AA.  Going to be a cracker.


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## tristar (15 May 2012)

aa, i must admit your mare is a heavy one, i like something lighter personally, but, that foal is super, the last one i had that looked like that grew into a champion working hunter cob, perhaps he was a bit lighter though.

who is the father of the foal,?  he looks in superb condition and very well cared for, hope he has a great future!


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## GinnieRedwings (15 May 2012)

Monkers said:



			I really don't think Mouseinthe house is a troll. I think she has been quite mature to stay out of this awful thread that has slated her horse and her decision to breed from her. She seems to have removed the pictures of her mare and I can't say I blame her, I would have done the same. I really think you should remove the photo of her horse from your post Magic, she would have every right to be furious that you have posted it.
		
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



Alec Swan said:



			OP,  don't be disheartened,  what ever the temptation,  ignore the experts,  and do as you will.  Who's horse is it anyway? 

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Quite! I, for one, do not feel every breeder needs to carry the custodianship of bettering British Breeding... What does bettering British breeding mean anyway when there are so many people wanting so many different things from so many different types of horses??? 




magic104 said:



			I do not believe mouseinthehouse had any intention.  I think this thread was started by a coward who wanted to start an argument, because this forum is incapable of debating.  I had already noticed that they were in & out monitoring this thread yet only made 2 posts.  I kinda guessed something was off, but never mind I have learnt something these past couple of days & I am now going to be a bit more careful about who I accept as a friend.

So well done mouseinahouse, lets hope you dont stumble into someone elses trap!!
		
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I've been "in & out monitoring this thread " as well - call it morbid fascination as it descended into new depth of the ridiculous... 

Paranoid, obtuse, mad & box of frogs spring to mind, as well as a few others 

Adorable Alice, I hope you have lots of fun with your lovely girl & Mouseinthehouse too, when yours is born


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## AdorableAlice (15 May 2012)

tristar said:



			aa, i must admit your mare is a heavy one, i like something lighter personally, but, that foal is super, the last one i had that looked like that grew into a champion working hunter cob, perhaps he was a bit lighter though.

who is the father of the foal,?  he looks in superb condition and very well cared for, hope he has a great future!
		
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Thank you, it's a little filly by Avanti Amorous Archie RID.

The picture of the mare is the poorest I could find, if you saw her in the flesh she is actually very correctly put together and moves really well, biggest fault is a very thick gullet.  She is thought to be by a small Shire out of a cob, but the breeding is unknown.  She rides/drives and has a golden temperament. 

I used the poor picture to highlight how bad a horse can look in a photo and I felt very sorry for they way the OP had been spoken to, and also to illustrate that a ordinary mare can produce a useable pleasure horse as long as research is done before choosing a mate.

I have shown hunters and quite like a bit of showing but the foal is destined to be a hack for my old age.  She is 14.3 and is a yearling now so she won't measure in as a cob but she may be good enough to do maxi cobs, maybe, if she throws back to the Shire in the dam, she might grow on into a hunter.

She was specifically bred to have alot of bone, I am no stick insect and people just don't seem to bred horses with bone anymore.


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## GinnieRedwings (15 May 2012)

AA, I thought she was an Archie baby. He does stamp them, doesn't he?

She's lovely & if she is anything like him, she will truly be a horse of a lifetime


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## tristar (15 May 2012)

AA, the one i had was part shire too! he was a very light, balanced and good mover too, same colour as your foal, how lucky its a filly.


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## AdorableAlice (15 May 2012)

tristar said:



			AA, the one i had was part shire too! he was a very light, balanced and good mover too, same colour as your foal, how lucky its a filly.
		
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Ask me in 3 years !  I have never ridden a mare.  Here is a better picture of the dam, do you think she is half Shire ?  she is only 15 hands but is very deep. This was taken the evening before she foaled.


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## Wagtail (15 May 2012)

Jamana said:



			I don't usually reply on these topics as I am not in the Sports Horse world and don't know any of the stallions. However I always notice on this type of thread similar responses, such as the one from Magic104. How often do we hear that there are plenty of nice well bred foals out there to buy? Who breeds these?  (Perhaps people who push the idea of buying them...??)

Magic104 I see from earlier threads that you have bred a foal this year, and I am pleased that your mare got over the complications that arose, but if you are breeding one yourself then I am sorry who are you to tell someone else to go out and buy one instead? You seem to have a rather direct approach to any confo critique, which I applaud as I hate asking for someone's opinion and just being told what they think I want to hear, but to dismiss the OP with such strong phrases and then to sum it up as  representing all that is wrong in British breeding is not helpful just patronising.

IMO one problem with British breeding is that too many 'performance' horses are bred. Who breeds just ordinary, everyday best friends? To me the mare above may have her faults, but they haven't stopped her from leading an active useful life and a great temperament is a huge attribute on it's own. For the stated objective of the OP, pleasure rides, beach hacking, a little RC competition, the mare looks a good candidate. If the OP is not looking to sell then whether *to* breed is not a factor it is *what* to breed that counts. And if in future the foal ever would  need selling then a good tempered allround with less then perfect conformation will outsell and highly strung, well bred, performance type confo blueprint.

As far as stallions go, as I have said I don't know sports horse sires, but I would look for a stallion that is short-coupled with plenty behind him and well sprung pasterns. A neat, quality head but not too light of bone. Maybe QH, Anglo or even one of the bigger Connemara's?
		
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Well said!


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## tristar (15 May 2012)

AA, i love mares, mind you i love all of them really, and she looks half shire to me, not that i take that study  shires, except when i do see them i think what lovely things they are, and usually a very nice shape.

that photo is much better.

carole parsons the dressage rider, who competed at the olympics in dressage with an anglo-arab has two shire cross horses, one's called giddy, forgot what the other's called, and i think i'm right in saying they both work at grand prix


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## MouseintheHouse (15 May 2012)

For everyone who has posted on this thread with your very informed advice, suggestions and very kind support, thank you very much for taking the time - it is appreciated. 

I posted photos of my mare who means the world to me for constructive criticism about her conformation and possible stallion suggestions. No, they aren't the best photos, like myself she is not very photogenic, her feet are actually a work in progress, her pasterns arent quite as upright as the photos show, and in hindsight I should have persevered for better pictures.

To set the record straight, I am not a troll, nor a coward - I have only posted twice, as I felt the thread was getting out of hand and I didnt want to get drawn into the discussions. I have also removed the photos for the same reason. Magic please remove the photo that you have put up in one of your later threads.

Magic 104 - your first post, as I have said previously, didn't offend me as I took it as exactly what I asked for - constructive criticism. However since that first post you have seemed hell bent on shoving your opinion down everyone's throat. That is why everyone else has taken up with trying to bring you down a peg or two  even when they actually agree with you in principal!

I don't appreciate how you have turned this so nasty, it was certainly never my intentions. I also do not appreciate and will not reply to personal messages of such a threatening nature. I have not **** stirred anything up - you've done that all by yourself!


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## Capriole (15 May 2012)

MouseintheHouse said:



			I also do not appreciate and will not reply to personal messages of such a threatening nature.
		
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If you are getting threatening PMs report them to TFC, thats not on at all.


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## jamesmead (15 May 2012)

Have to say that I am really impressed by mouseinthehouse's good sense and dignity in handling this thread. WHAT an introduction to this forum and to breeding and breeders! 

For the record, in the OPs position I would breed from my mare; I'd consider carefully what, if anything, I wished to change or improve and I wouldn't ask anyone's permission!

For this mare, to keep the substance, I'd also check out some of the modern Knabstrup types; I also remember reading about a Criollo (can't think of his name offhand; maybe someone else can remember it?) standing in Scotland whose soundness, toughness and capacity for work - performance tested in his homeland to a degree that is simply not seen in this country - should recommend him to anyone wanting to breed a useful sort.


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## Amymay (15 May 2012)

Have to say that I am really impressed by mouseinthehouse's good sense and dignity in handling this thread. WHAT an introduction to this forum and to breeding and breeders!
		
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Hear, hear!


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## Sportznight (15 May 2012)

jamesmead said:



			Have to say that I am really impressed by mouseinthehouse's good sense and dignity in handling this thread.
		
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Completely agree!!




			I also remember reading about a Criollo (can't think of his name offhand; maybe someone else can remember it?) standing in Scotland whose soundness, toughness and capacity for work - performance tested in his homeland to a degree that is simply not seen in this country - should recommend him to anyone wanting to breed a useful sort.
		
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This chap! http://www.chamfronstud.com/arrayannuma/


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## lurcherlu (15 May 2012)

Hiya,

First of all, I'm gutted i missed the photos, I like my chunky cob types. I have an exmoor x ID type mare and am always thinking shame shes not a stally so i could cover my coloured cob x mare with her lol. A ID x would be nice i think. You can never gaurentee anything, just because you buy a weanling/yearling etc doesnt mean they will make it to 4 years old. My 2 and 3 year olds test their suicide ideas daily. What ever you choose to do I am sure you will end up happy with what your mare produces..... all foals are cute- its the grown up beggers that are the problem! Good luck sweetie and enjoy every minute of the mares pregnancy ?(when you choose something good nough for your young lady ) and enjoy every second of the foal


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## jamesmead (15 May 2012)

Sportznight said:



			Completely agree!!



This chap! http://www.chamfronstud.com/arrayannuma/

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THAT'S the lad!

Thanks Sportznight! Have to say I'm sorry you don't now post pictures of your horses (though I don't post pictures of mine for the same reasons) as I used to enjoy seeing them.


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## greasedweasel (15 May 2012)

jamesmead said:



			Have to say that I am really impressed by mouseinthehouse's good sense and dignity in handling this thread. WHAT an introduction to this forum and to breeding and breeders! 

For the record, in the OPs position I would breed from my mare; I'd consider carefully what, if anything, I wished to change or improve and I wouldn't ask anyone's permission!

For this mare, to keep the substance, I'd also check out some of the modern Knabstrup types; I also remember reading about a Criollo (can't think of his name offhand; maybe someone else can remember it?) standing in Scotland whose soundness, toughness and capacity for work - performance tested in his homeland to a degree that is simply not seen in this country - should recommend him to anyone wanting to breed a useful sort.
		
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Totally agree with the comment about Mouseinthehouse and thanks for the recommendation (and to SN for the link)  Don't know if he'd be big enough for the OP though (he's 14.2)?  However if I can help with photos of his progeny or anything else please do give me a shout.

Also agree with the Knab suggestion what about something like - http://www.tresaisonstud.co.uk/Stallions at Stud.htm


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## Bearskin (15 May 2012)

Upton's Deli Circus:  http://www.stallionai.co.uk/stallions/uptons-deli-circus-2/

Great temperament and good bone.


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## mellissa (15 May 2012)

I have to say that I think this kind of thread was coming.  

This is a breeding forum and is supposed to bring together people with an interest of breeding horses- experts and novices.

I for one have been so dismayed lately with the number of posts about "stallion suggestions", and inevitably someone jumps in saying their mare shouldn't be bred from as it has bad confo/pedigree/head/name whatever.  I think this kind of backlash was coming as people are getting pi**ed of with being told to buy something else as it's cheaper.

We all feel passionately about what we do.  It is not the breeding of horses that is clogging up the rescue centres, it is the economy.  There has never been a time when more consideration has gone into breeding, people don't have the money to keep them. 

I dont consider myself a breeding expert, but I have an equine degree and have been competing British showjumping for many years.  I use top class international stallions on competition mares.  I can ride what I breed.  I doubt that many posters who say that mares shouldn't be bred from unless they have a high level performance record could actually ride the resulting animal, and ensure it fulfills expectation that it's genetics suggest.

I have learned much from my limited breeding experience, and enjoy coming onto the forum to see foals and relate the excitement the other members are feeling whilst awaiting the arrival of their foals.  

It is disgusting the first experience the OP has of a forum is a bad one.  It is the advice that is priceless on a forum like this.  

There are a surplus of horses currently due to the economy.  Market prices are bad and not likely to recover for a long time.  In view of this real consideration must be taken before breeding and good attributes must be present in both mare and stallion.  

Yes it is cheaper to buy than breed in many circumstances.  But you could be wasting your money on something else like buying a brand new car and driving it off the forecourt.  

Breeding has given me real pleasure that money can't buy.  

Please guys, when someone asks for advice on a forum please find a way of putting it across.


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## AdorableAlice (16 May 2012)

mellissa said:



			I have to say that I think this kind of thread was coming.  

This is a breeding forum and is supposed to bring together people with an interest of breeding horses- experts and novices.


I dont consider myself a breeding expert, but I have an equine degree and have been competing British showjumping for many years.  I use top class international stallions on competition mares.  I can ride what I breed.  I doubt that many posters who say that mares shouldn't be bred from unless they have a high level performance record could actually ride the resulting animal, and ensure it fulfills expectation that it's genetics suggest.


Please guys, when someone asks for advice on a forum please find a way of putting it across.
		
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Very very well said and a breath of fresh air on the 'shall I breed from my mare puzzle'

The OP, myself and many other family mare owners will read this post with relief.  We want to breed for ourselves and  to ride the offspring and the research we do ensures we produce as far as possible, the type we want, not the next Badminton winner that scares us pleasure riders silly.

Our young cobs or middle/heavyweight horses will do everything I want and probably more if required and if I fall off my perch earlier than planned I am sure the steady neddy will be loved and enjoyed by someone else.


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## vicijp (16 May 2012)

mellissa said:



			Breeding has given me real pleasure that money can't buy.  



			There aren't many things you can say that about.
		
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## Maesfen (16 May 2012)

Totally agree with you Alice, brilliant post by Melissa.


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## Kaylum (16 May 2012)

Many people on here are very experienced and the advice they give is their point of view.  As we know with horses we never stop learning, so often something has happend in your horse life that has never happenend in other peoples.  Its a passion and passion is therefore expressed sometimes not in a way others can understand.  

Its trying to help people to avoid making the same mistakes and having the same heartbreaks.  Thats why sometimes it gets nasty and rude but I am sure it is passion based. 

OP please dont be put off posting.  I have learnt so much and keep learning everyday.


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## amy_b (16 May 2012)

jamesmead said:



			For this mare, to keep the substance, I'd also check out some of the modern Knabstrup types; I also remember reading about a Criollo (can't think of his name offhand; maybe someone else can remember it?) standing in Scotland whose soundness, toughness and capacity for work - performance tested in his homeland to a degree that is simply not seen in this country - should recommend him to anyone wanting to breed a useful sort.
		
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Sportznight said:



			This chap! http://www.chamfronstud.com/arrayannuma/

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Good call!! I really like this guy, not big enough for us sadly as our mare is only 15.2 and we want to put height into the mix but if one of them was bigger I would seriosuly consider this boy! he has some really nice foals on the ground and his owner who is on here sent me a really nice PM pointing me in the direction of pictures when he came up last time.


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## wynnwith (16 May 2012)

Flip me! A lot of PMT going on here.... !!! ;-d


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