# Side effects of excess magnesium



## Orchardbeck (18 February 2013)

Hi, I posted a few days ago in the feed section about my mare who had loose droppings after either a) being wormed with pramox, b) changing chaff to Alfa A unmollassed from HiFI unmollassed, or c) me adding extra water to her soaked feed (calm and condition). 

I've been doing more research, and I read that sometimes excess magnesium can cause a laxitive effect. I have been adding magnesium oxide to her feed for a few years now, (she was on speedibeet before the C&C, which I understand to be balanced). With the alfalfa, which is also supposed to contain magnesium, the feed and the mag ox, could I have been overdosing her? 

I have taken it out, and also added less water to her soaked feed (still slightly more water than is recommended) and her droppings seem less watery (still fully formed, jst with added liquid). She has been getting a vit supplement with probiotic but I think I can leave this out too as she is geting the recommended level of feed for her weight.

Or could it jst be the effects of the wormer wearing off (she was wormed last monday).


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## JillA (18 February 2013)

Excess magnesium can cause loose droppings, but it isn't really a problem - all it is is the system excreting the excess. If you reduce the dose to what her system can cope with it is better than stopping it altogether IMO


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## Erin (18 February 2013)

How long ago did you take her off the magnesium? If its been a few days and she still has loose droppings then it probably wasnt thd mag.


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## here_i_am (18 February 2013)

Magnesium is a 'safe' mineral to overdose. The body excretes the excess via wee & sloppy poos. I also found it to have a sedative affect when my sister massively (accidently) overdosed our pony (she'll eat anything!) She literally looked doped - nose nearly touching the floor! Vet said it would wear off & it did with no trouble (took a few days though).
If i were u, id still feed it - most UK feeds & grazing are lacking in it. But just play about with the dosage - start low. A few things changed/happened around the same time though, so it might not even be the mag at all. Especially if you've been feeding it for so long with no problems. 
I hope u get it sorted  x


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## Brightbay (18 February 2013)

AFAIK alfalfa is high in calcium, which actually prevents the uptake of magnesium 

I would personally be thinking wormer, and adding some probiotics like Yea-sacc for a week or two to help the gut settle again.  If you've fed this amount of magnesium for some time with loose poos, it's unlikely to be the magnesium.


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## treacle_beastie (18 February 2013)

I'd say it was the wormer too. Has she reacted to pramox like that before? I normally feed a probiotic when they are wormed to prevent it.


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## tallyho! (18 February 2013)

You need ALOT of magnesium to make it work as a laxative!

I think it's the change from a straw chaff to an alfalfa chaff. 

Every time I change bale batches with my filly, her droppings change and takes a few days to go back to normal. They are sensitive creatures and winter is hard on the gut as so much dry matter is consumed with water taken periodically.

On pasture, much of the water is taken with the grass so digestion improves.

Add some brewers yeast or yea sacc to the feed will help balance the gut bacteria. I also add mint as it soothes the gut lining.


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## Orchardbeck (18 February 2013)

Thanks all. Her droppings are back to normal again, so i'm putting it down to the wormer - she's been done with pramox before but she's been sensitive since a colic episode in early Dec, in fact I noticed she was poorly when I was actually heading out the door to buy the damn thing! I've put off worming her til now to let her recover and did her with Eqvalan instead incase of a tapeworm burden. 

 She's been on Equimins advanced complete since then  which has yeast and probiotics, and the calm and condition also has probiotics. 

I'm gooing to reintroduce the mag ox again and see how we go. The alfalfa thing is weird as she has been getting hifi beforehand which surely contains it too? I've reduced the amount of chaff from a full stubbs scoop twice per day to two big handfuls 2x per day as the straight alfalfa has a higher feed value.


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## cptrayes (18 February 2013)

Magnesium sulphate is  a big laxative, but magnesium oxide nowhere near as much.


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## Pinkvboots (18 February 2013)

I would say it was the wormer Pramox is a very strong wormer, the others are also right about the mag ox no bad side effects if overdosing.


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## Orchardbeck (18 February 2013)

I have to say I was always under that impression, I was never worried about how much mag ox I put in her feed as a result. It musthave been the effect of mag sulphate I came across that confused me. That's good as I feed it for two purposes, feet and muscles, and as a kind of antacid in case she has ulcer issues. And there is the obvious calming benefit, not that she desperately needs calming! 

I think it was the Pramox, as her bed is much dryer today, with no liquid staining the shavings. She is probably still od'ing on other minerals with what she is being fed though!


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## Miss L Toe (18 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Magnesium sulphate is  a big laxative, but magnesium oxide nowhere near as much.
		
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Agree, I feed 6gms of magnesium per day, but some people are on 25gms, ie 50gms of magnesium oxide. the Uk is low in magnesium generally, and I feed it as a calmer and and to reduce feet sensitivity [barefoot]
Part of it comes from feedmark Steady up which I know does not cause any  problems as I have fed it at the maximum dose in the past. I have recently bought MgO to cut the costs 
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/900g-Magn...t=UK_Horse_Wear_Equipment&hash=item1e67297e1f, and feed a small amount of Steady up which also has some yeast-sac and calming herbs.


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## tallyho! (18 February 2013)

Hi fi lite is mainly straw. There is alfalfa in there but since alfalfa is a conditioning feed, there would be no point adding too much of it or else it would be very "lite"


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## Amaranta (18 February 2013)

Magnesium also inhibits the uptake of calcium so it is not 'safe' to overdose


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## Orchardbeck (18 February 2013)

Thanks again all. Aramanta, do you know if there is a safe ratio of calcium to magnesium - should I be adding something else, a bit like selenium and vitamin e?


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## tallyho! (18 February 2013)

http://www.balancedequinenutrition.com/Ratios.html


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## cptrayes (18 February 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Magnesium also inhibits the uptake of calcium so it is not 'safe' to overdose
		
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Can you give us the reference for that Amaranta, I have never heard of it before?

Phosphorous inhibits calcium take-up but this is the first reference I have ever seen to magnesium doing so. 

A very substantial proportion of barefooters overdose magnesium, including me, and I have never seen a single suggestion anywhere of calcium deficiency because of it. If it's true then we need to change our advice, and the manufacturers of magnesium calmers need to start putting overdose warnings on their products.


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## cptrayes (18 February 2013)

tallyho! said:



http://www.balancedequinenutrition.com/Ratios.html

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There does not appear to be any science to back up that chart?  It's worded in a very woolly fashion 




			- mineral relationships and interactions: calcium, iron, manganese, zinc, phosphorus, magnesium, copper

If a mineral has an arrow pointing to another mineral, it means a deficiency of that mineral or interference with its metabolism *may* be caused by excesses of the mineral from whence the arrow originates.
		
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My bolding.

I'm not sure it's worth the paper it's not written on    It reads like a bit of marketing puff for their products to me.


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## Amaranta (18 February 2013)

We have talked about this before cptrayes you were given the references then.


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## mandwhy (18 February 2013)

If it wasn't the wormer I'd say it was the change to Alfa A as it will be higher in protein. Adding water to feeds can only be a good thing for a horse with runny poo!


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## cptrayes (18 February 2013)

Sorry, have forgotten all about it, can you point me to it again? I can't have thought that there was much substance in whatever you pointed me to, because I'm normally pretty hot on remembering stuff like that.


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## Mrs. Jingle (18 February 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Magnesium also inhibits the uptake of calcium so it is not 'safe' to overdose
		
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Now I am totally confused, I had read (on here I think??) that the opposite is the case, that too much calcium inhibits the uptake of magnesium. Which is why I stopped using Calmag as I felt I might be depleting the uptake of magnesium (which is the thing I particularly wanted to feed at a reasonably high'ish level) by using the calmag as a cheaper alternative?


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## JillA (18 February 2013)

Amaranta said:



			Magnesium also inhibits the uptake of calcium so it is not 'safe' to overdose
		
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So far as I know it is the other way round - my land is high Ca and low Mg which means the uptake of Mg is even lower because of the Calcium.


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## LucyPriory (18 February 2013)

MrsJingle said:



			Now I am totally confused, I had read (on here I think??) that the opposite is the case, that too much calcium inhibits the uptake of magnesium. Which is why I stopped using Calmag as I felt I might be depleting the uptake of magnesium (which is the thing I particularly wanted to feed at a reasonably high'ish level) by using the calmag as a cheaper alternative?
		
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Are you are referring to calmag - as in calcined magnesite?  If not can you let me know what product you mean because I am always keen to try and be as well informed as possible.  Thank you.

The calmag product I am familiar with (calcined magnesite) is magnesite rock roasted at 500+ degrees and ground.  It contains mag ox, silica and carbon and probably some trace elements, but is not a source of calcium.

Re the confusion - calcium and magnesium need to be in rough balance - 2 parts calcium to 1 part magnesium is often quoted.


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## 1stclassalan (18 February 2013)

While acknowledging that there are many substances that can be good or bad for our horses ( or us ) I reckon the entire additive industry is a plague that prays on the unsuspecting and can do more harm than good.

If you look at the the reccommended doses of all minerals and trace elements and have a good think about what the amounts actually are - I reckon I could scrape out my fingernails and get more weight!

Your average horse eats a huge volume of grass, hay or haylage in comparison before considering any hard food - all of this on average will supply everything an animal needs - especially if they go out to graze for any amount of time because horses crop their grass quite close to the soil and will naturally ingest quite an amount. I dare say that most Horseyfolk have witnessed horses licking the ground in certain places too - it's usually because it's salty ( to them ) but can be for many other stuff that "Nature" is telling them to eat.

I kept three horses and two ponies fighting fit over thirty odd years and never fed a single supplement to any of them - I believe that they are totally unnecessary.


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## tallyho! (18 February 2013)

cptrayes said:



			There does not appear to be any science to back up that chart?  It's worded in a very woolly fashion 


My bolding.

I'm not sure it's worth the paper it's not written on    It reads like a bit of marketing puff for their products to me.
		
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Probably but the 2:1 ratio seems standard across every site I came across...


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## tallyho! (18 February 2013)

1stclassalan said:



			While acknowledging that there are many substances that can be good or bad for our horses ( or us ) I reckon the entire additive industry is a plague that prays on the unsuspecting and can do more harm than good.

If you look at the the reccommended doses of all minerals and trace elements and have a good think about what the amounts actually are - I reckon I could scrape out my fingernails and get more weight!

Your average horse eats a huge volume of grass, hay or haylage in comparison before considering any hard food - all of this on average will supply everything an animal needs - especially if they go out to graze for any amount of time because horses crop their grass quite close to the soil and will naturally ingest quite an amount. I dare say that most Horseyfolk have witnessed horses licking the ground in certain places too - it's usually because it's salty ( to them ) but can be for many other stuff that "Nature" is telling them to eat.

I kept three horses and two ponies fighting fit over thirty odd years and never fed a single supplement to any of them - I believe that they are totally unnecessary.
		
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Probably true Alan. I think the problem is not to do with the supply, the demand has increased due an increasing number of horses kept on unsuitable pasture.... And feeds!


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## tallyho! (18 February 2013)

This is probably more reliable as he quotes Katy watts and dr kellon...

http://www.hoofrehab.com/diet.htm

Something in here about mg affecting ca...

http://equiforce.com/an-integral-part-of-equine-nutrition.aspx


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## Mrs. Jingle (18 February 2013)

LucyPriory said:



			Are you are referring to calmag - as in calcined magnesite?  If not can you let me know what product you mean because I am always keen to try and be as well informed as possible.  Thank you.

The calmag product I am familiar with (calcined magnesite) is magnesite rock roasted at 500+ degrees and ground.  It contains mag ox, silica and carbon and probably some trace elements, but is not a source of calcium.

Re the confusion - calcium and magnesium need to be in rough balance - 2 parts calcium to 1 part magnesium is often quoted.
		
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Ah right, well it is calcined magnesite that I was using (used for cattle in my part of the world and called calmag on the labelling), and I was led to believe that it also contained calcium? In fact I am sure that it said so on the label? But I could be wrong, I often am!

So would I be OK to still feed that then...I have gone back to buying very expensive magnesium from Progressive Earth as I thought I was getting it seriously wrong with the cattle Calmag?

Gosh it is all so confusing!


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## mandwhy (18 February 2013)

Is calmag cheaper and equivalent to mag ox then? I feed mag ox from pro earth and thought it was pretty good cost wise compared to what I've seen in the tack shop! 

Alan - I totally agree but mag ox makes my horse less mental to deal with which Is definitely a good thing with my fragile nerves  its cheap too really since I only feed that and chaff and sometimes linseed (sounds very 'barefoot' but she does wear shoes!). I since bought some hi fibre nuts with 'balanced vits and mins' and the mentalness has returned. I don't trust anything a feed company tells me!


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## Mrs. Jingle (18 February 2013)

Roughly £15 here for a 20kg sack of calmag, that even at relatively high doses seems to last forever, much, much cheaper alternative. I am seriously wondering now if I should go back to using it? Help!!!


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## criso (18 February 2013)

I know lots of people who use calmag and report it does the job just as well as magox.  You have to feed a little bit more but it's still loads cheaper.  Others reckon magox is better absorbed and contains less impurities.   Definitely no calcium in it though. 

Re the calcium levels, I have had a few analyses done at different yards as have friends and while there are variations, calcium is consistently high and magnesium low so I worry more about too much calcium than magnesium.

At my current yard it's so high that not only I am avoiding Alfalfa which is pretty high in calcium  but sugarbeet which also contains reasonable levels of calcium.

Doesn't leave me alot to feed!


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## amandaco2 (18 February 2013)

The only thing about persistantly high magnesium levels is it can affect calcium....but high levels isn't the same as high amounts in feed, depends how much is absorbed.
Likely to be the wormer....


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## LucyPriory (18 February 2013)

MrsJingle said:



			Ah right, well it is calcined magnesite that I was using (used for cattle in my part of the world and called calmag on the labelling), and I was led to believe that it also contained calcium? In fact I am sure that it said so on the label? But I could be wrong, I often am!

So would I be OK to still feed that then...I have gone back to buying very expensive magnesium from Progressive Earth as I thought I was getting it seriously wrong with the cattle Calmag?

Gosh it is all so confusing!
		
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Some people believe calmag has calcium in it because of the 'cal' and will argue the case, but it doesn't - the 'cal' is for calcined.  Much if not all mag ox will have its origins in calmag but will have had some or near all of the silica and carbon removed.  

As I don't view these substances to be a problem I am happy to use calmag, as do many of my clients.  It is cheap and more importantly it works for my horse.  Some horses don't like the gritty texture, I've never had a problem provided it is properly mixed into a suitable carrier.

It's only the marketing puff that makes it confusing 

There are areas of the UK where the forage is low in calcium but in the areas I worked on high calcium has been much more of an issue.  Add that to the calcium in popular feeds such as alfalfa and beet and in terms of balance there is a greater likelihood of a relative shortage of magnesium.

The idea that all horses can get all they need from their grazing may well have been true at some point but not today.  A lucky few may be fine, but IME far more are not.


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## cptrayes (18 February 2013)

MrsJingle said:



			Now I am totally confused, I had read (on here I think??) that the opposite is the case, that too much calcium inhibits the uptake of magnesium. Which is why I stopped using Calmag as I felt I might be depleting the uptake of magnesium (which is the thing I particularly wanted to feed at a reasonably high'ish level) by using the calmag as a cheaper alternative?
		
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Calmag does not contain calcium.  The Cal stands for calcined.


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## cptrayes (18 February 2013)

1stclassalan said:



			I kept three horses and two ponies fighting fit over thirty odd years and never fed a single supplement to any of them - I believe that they are totally unnecessary.
		
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They may be unnecessary for you alan, you lucky ***.  But my land is high in iron and sky high in manganese and if I do not supplement copper I have copper deficient horses which can be seen in the colour of dark coats and in the concavity of their feet. 

Not all of us are lucky enough to have perfectly balanced grazing and forage as you are. I'm stuck with my geography, nothing can be done to balance my land, it is coming up in the water. Other people are stuck in livery with ryegrass haylage on ryegrass grazing. 

You're just lucky, not clever


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## cptrayes (18 February 2013)

tallyho! said:



			This is probably more reliable as he quotes Katy watts and dr kellon...

http://www.hoofrehab.com/diet.htm

Something in here about mg affecting ca...

http://equiforce.com/an-integral-part-of-equine-nutrition.aspx

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The problem with all these studies is that they have been practically impossible to test. Both those reports are making assertions unsupported by any references to clinical trials. 

Calcium/phophorous has been well documented for centuries, with the resulting disease known as "bran head".

Anecdotally, I can fully support the iron/manganese/copper problem. 

But for the other balances, I asked how this research was done and the answer is that horses were fed huge, life threatening and even deadly overdoses/underdoses to see what the results were.

I still have not seen any clinical or even anecdotal evidence that there is any problem whatsoever dosing 25-50g a day of magnesium oxide. I have myself been dosing 25g a day for 3 horses for 7 years and never seen any issues.  I know that I am far, far from alone in feeding this quantity, and that friends of mine have horses that go first stage laminitic if they don't get 25g a day.


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## tallyho! (19 February 2013)

It's very hard to find actual "evidence" you know. 

I spent quite a bit of time trying to papers but nope, nada.

Like CPT says, it's all based anecdotally and if it works for your horses then carry on. I am mostly concerned about the calchos ratio to be honest. Even so, my 2yo filly gets mag, copper, zinc and selenium supplemented... I do this because I had the forage tested.

THAT is the key - if you don't know, forage test. It costs money, but so does buying minerals at least then you will know for sure exactly WHAT mineral to supplement according to your pasture (especially if your horse lives on a beef farm like mine).

The problem with beef pasture is that is is fertilised with NPK which can leach out other stuff from the soil and therefore the plant itself. The farmer himself has to supplement his cows to prevent disorders in cattle such as staggers and selenium deficiency which causes something I've forgotten the name of (calves can't stand up) etc.


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