# Best food for a Czech Wolf.....



## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

I have a 14wk old Czech Wolf puppy. I currently have him on Pedigree hard food to see how he goes but I've actually tried everything! He was brought up on a raw meat diet which I continued for a week amd gradually weaned him off it as I couldnt bare the smell any longer! Every other good I've tried his poo is really runny, he has been wormed recently too. Just wondered if anyone has any suggestions? Help would be appreciated


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## Dobiegirl (23 January 2013)

http://www.whichdogfood.co.uk/dog-food-directory.php      Pedigree is pretty rubbish, with any new food introduce gradually to avoid upset tums. Fish4dogs is a good food as is Eden which is the highest ranking.


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## CorvusCorax (23 January 2013)

Wow, if I was a breeder who had weaned a puppy onto raw I'd be annoyed that he'd been switched onto Pedigree.

Raw may smell a but but it is infinitely better than Pedigree! Think of your dog's welfare rather than your nose. The runny poos should be telling you something - and you've tried 'everything'? How many times have you changed his food at 14 weeks?

It's a dog bred to look like a wolf, with possibly some wolf DNA, not an actual wolf by the way, otherwise you'd need a license to keep it 

Suggest you get yourself to a good training class or locate someone knowledgeable about dogs of this breed, you may need a little experienced guidance


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## smiggy (23 January 2013)

Go to your vet. Chronic diarrhea in a pup that was on raw food diet likely to be salmonella or campylobacter.
Not bashing raw feeding, just a likely scenario


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

Thanks, I'll have a look on those websites  

He isn't 14wks that was a mis type! He's 5 months...stupid phone. 

Anyway, the breeder gave me the bag of raw meat and said this is what he has been brought up on as it was easier for them as they had so many and said other pups from the litter had been put on to normal food so it was up to me if I wanted to carry on with it or wean him off it. As I have 3 other dogs I would prefer for them all to be on the same food for convenience but if he needs specialist food then thats fine. 

I ideally don't like Pedigree and never said I did but I know their breed aren't very good at digesting grain, so this one is grain free.

He is a very high content of Czech Wolf (his mam being 3/4 czech & 1/4 husky his dad was a full czech wolf) so I don't need a license for him and also don't need you to tell me about it as I am well aware of this! 

Anyway....back to my original question.....if you aren't here to answer it then quite frankly you can bog off


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## CorvusCorax (23 January 2013)

Okie dokie, have fun with your new pup


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## blackcob (23 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Anyway....back to my original question.....if you aren't here to answer it then quite frankly you can bog off 

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And a big friendly welcome to you too. 

Pedigree don't do a grain free food, wet or dry.

It's a Czech wolfDOG. 

My suggestion would be to return to the raw diet, northern/spitzy/husky types tend to do poorly on grain based food.


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

blackcob said:



			And a big friendly welcome to you too. 

Pedigree don't do a grain free food, wet or dry.

I didn't think they did but it said just with beef on the bag and the others had with rice etc. 

It's a Czech wolfDOG. 

Oooo sorry! I missed the DOG bit off the end...does it really matter? I didn't ask what his breed was anyway LOL 

My suggestion would be to return to the raw diet, northern/spitzy/husky types tend to do poorly on grain based food.
		
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Hmm, maybe. I'll obviously give him a bit longer on the Pedigree as he hasn't been on it very long. I did read up on something that said they can be on a hard food and be given raw meat a few times a week as they require different nutritional needs to dogs.

I have asked if anyone knows what food is best for them...but all I seem to have got is that Pedigree is rubbish....I understand that, which is why I have asked the question in the first place


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## Dizzydancer (23 January 2013)

The first response gave you a list to all dog foods that are rated as good and bad. 
Fish4dogs is good. Depends on the price you want to spend. I feed my lab skinners as its a cheaper version but still good quality, they do grain free ones too. 
However i no nothin about the breed so can't tel you whether it would be any good for him.
But i would get him off pedigree asap if you struggle with his tummy go hypoallergenic my lab can't tolerate raw meat or rich food. He is on salmon and potato as its hypoallergenic.


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## Pix (23 January 2013)

Well, missing the dog part of the name does make a difference, as otherwise he would be an F1 hybrid if his sire was "full wolf" 

As advised I'd be going back to raw if I were you, or as close as you can get in a bag. Something like Fish4Dogs or similar brand perhaps. Have a look at what's available on places like Zooplus for a start, then check manufacturers websites for further info on nutritional content.

People are pointing out how rubbish pedigree is as you have chosen to feed it over raw/better quality foods. Therefore they will assume you don't realise how crap it is and point it out. It's not being nasty, it's just the obvious assumption.

Oh, and we require puppy pics. I bet he's gorgeous.


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## kezz86 (23 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Hmm, maybe. I'll obviously give him a bit longer on the Pedigree as he hasn't been on it very long. I did read up on something that said they can be on a hard food and be given raw meat a few times a week as they require different nutritional needs to dogs.

I have asked if anyone knows what food is best for them...but all I seem to have got is that Pedigree is rubbish....I understand that, which is why I have asked the question in the first place 

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All breeders of the czech wolf dog I have known and worked with prefer to feed a RAW diet of some kind which is probably another reason why your dog's breeder originally had your little one on it... They do best on this IMO. It's good for teeth, they digest it well and they do seem to enjoy it.

Yes Pedigree is c**p...


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## RLS (23 January 2013)

Wow, that sounds an amazing dog, can you post piccies? I've never seen one.

Well, nobody else has said it so....maybe best food for a Czech Wolf Dog.... would be small children! LOL
Sorry! But I know some I can donate if you like.


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## lexiedhb (23 January 2013)

You cant bear the smell of raw meat (very little smell except tripe) but can stand the smell of pedigree???? Despite many folk including your breeder telling you pedigree is garbage for dogs? okedokey!


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

Currently checking out the Fish4Dogs website now which is a great help  

Maybe I will have to buy a peg for my nose and deal with the raw meat 

It would be nice to have them all on the same food, or even him and the Husky at least and my other two on the same. 

The Chihuhua does not approve of the raw meat either!


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## NeverSayNever (23 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Anyway, the breeder gave me the bag of raw meat and said this is what he has been brought up on as it was easier for them as they had so many and said other pups from the litter had been put on to normal food so it was up to me if I wanted to carry on with it or wean him off it. As I have 3 other dogs I would prefer for them all to be on the same food for convenience but if he needs specialist food then thats fine.
		
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raw meat IS NORMAL FOOD

and it doesnt usually smell at all  When you take a chicken out of the fridge to cook for yourself, does it smell?? I strongly suggest you put the animal back on raw but get it from a decent supplier. There are many options. 


ready prepared, in handy tubs, more more expensive
http://www.naturalinstinct.com/categories/All-Dog-Food/

cheaper - comes in sealed packets

http://www.berriewoodwholesale.co.uk/sec/5764/Berriewood/


all the info you will ever need is here
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/111437-raw-feeding-everything-you-need-know.html


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

RLS said:



			Wow, that sounds an amazing dog, can you post piccies? I've never seen one.

Well, nobody else has said it so....maybe best food for a Czech Wolf Dog.... would be small children! LOL
Sorry! But I know some I can donate if you like.
		
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Haha he would lick you to death rather than eat  he is a bit of a wimp for being a wolf though 

I will try and get pics on...haven't worked out how to do that yet!


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## Dobiegirl (23 January 2013)

OP no need to get so defensive,lots of numpties(and Im not suggesting you are) buy this sort of dog because of the wolf label and are looking for something a bit different I see loads advertised around me as pups and a year down the line are re-offered for sale as the owners cant cope.


Any dog or wolf are not designed to digest grains and its just a wasted filler used to fill out a rubbish food.


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

lexiedhb said:



			You cant bear the smell of raw meat (very little smell except tripe) but can stand the smell of pedigree???? Despite many folk including your breeder telling you pedigree is garbage for dogs? okedokey!
		
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My breeder hasn't told me it was garbage?


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## lexiedhb (23 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			My breeder hasn't told me it was garbage? 

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Any decent breeder IMO would know that pedigree was not an ideal food for dogs........ hence they fed raw right?


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

NeverSayNever said:



			raw meat IS NORMAL FOOD

and it doesnt usually smell at all  When you take a chicken out of the fridge to cook for yourself, does it smell?? I strongly suggest you put the animal back on raw but get it from a decent supplier. There are many options. 


ready prepared, in handy tubs, more more expensive
http://www.naturalinstinct.com/categories/All-Dog-Food/

cheaper - comes in sealed packets

http://www.berriewoodwholesale.co.uk/sec/5764/Berriewood/


all the info you will ever need is here
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/111437-raw-feeding-everything-you-need-know.html

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It was the liver/heart and birds legs with skin still on that smelt the worst! Haha


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

lexiedhb said:



			Any decent breeder IMO would know that pedigree was not an ideal food for dogs........ hence they fed raw right?
		
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They fed raw as it was cheaper and more convenient for them as they had so many. I have never said Pedigree is good...he's on it as a last resort, also the reason why I have posted the question, reason being I don't want to keep him on it


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



			OP no need to get so defensive,lots of numpties(and Im not suggesting you are) buy this sort of dog because of the wolf label and are looking for something a bit different I see loads advertised around me as pups and a year down the line are re-offered for sale as the owners cant cope.


Any dog or wolf are not designed to digest grains and its just a wasted filler used to fill out a rubbish food.
		
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I know it just drives me mad when people assume things, I do apologise as I'm not usually a "snapper"  he certainly won't be offered for sale as I find him amazing, more loyal than any dog I've ever had and love him to bits....just want to help him and his poor bum!


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## NeverSayNever (23 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			It was the liver/heart and birds legs with skin still on that smelt the worst! Haha
		
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can i respectfully suggest that the WAY your breeder was feeding raw.. as in 'cheaper and more convenient'  is what has led you to be put off. Feeding raw, and feeding decent quality meat = no smell! And it still costs me less than it would feeding a decent kibble. However I dont believe any kibble is a s good as a raw diet. 

Did you look at the links I gave you??


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

NeverSayNever said:



			can i respectfully suggest that the WAY your breeder was feeding raw.. as in 'cheaper and more convenient'  is what has led you to be put off. Feeding raw, and feeding decent quality meat = no smell! And it still costs me less than it would feeding a decent kibble. However I dont believe any kibble is a s good as a raw diet. 

Did you look at the links I gave you??
		
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Hmm possibly....I'm new to the raw thing so I just assumed it was all like that and didn't enjoy feed times at all! 

Haven't had a chance yet as I'm sneaking on between work  but I will certainly have a read through it all. 

When I was feeding him on the raw meat he was very distracted eating it and just kept picking and then trying to pinch the other dogs food! Which is why I switched him too as now (excuse the pun) wolfs it down!  but it just doesnt come out the other end as well as it goes in....if you know what I mean!


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## kezz86 (23 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Currently checking out the Fish4Dogs website now which is a great help  

Maybe I will have to buy a peg for my nose and deal with the raw meat 

It would be nice to have them all on the same food, or even him and the Husky at least and my other two on the same. 

The Chihuhua does not approve of the raw meat either! 

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Bless my chihuahuas loves raw meat when ever I have any going spare (not on a pure RAW diet though) they get it as a "treat"


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

kezz86 said:



			Bless my chihuahuas loves raw meat when ever I have any going spare (not on a pure RAW diet though) they get it as a "treat"
		
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Aw wow! Mine just curls his nose up...typical of a Chihuahua!


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

Couple of pics for those of you who asked 

Can't post pics yet...boo  will try another way


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...1206838848424.458157.511753423&type=3&theater

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...1206838848424.458157.511753423&type=3&theater


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## Oscar (23 January 2013)

If money not tight then look at the Orijen range, very good quality food, it's like feeding raw but in biscuit form.

Taste of the wild and Applaws are also good.  I did try fish for dogs, but my dog smelt, well "fishy!


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## ester (23 January 2013)

they come up as private 

from fb you need to right click on pic  and copy the image address (may need to go via properties) which ends .jpg

to show them on here put 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 after the code


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

ester said:



			they come up as private 

from fb you need to right click on pic  and copy the image address (may need to go via properties) which ends .jpg

to show them on here put 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 after the code
		
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http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/264785_10151209663048424_1632080372_n.jpg

http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/379673_10151239627093424_130172774_n.jpg

Try these?


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## lexiedhb (23 January 2013)

What are your other dogs fed on?


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

HorseyLad said:



			If money not tight then look at the Orijen range, very good quality food, it's like feeding raw but in biscuit form.

Taste of the wild and Applaws are also good.  I did try fish for dogs, but my dog smelt, well "fishy!
		
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Thanks for that! Will have a nosey now


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

lexiedhb said:



			What are your other dogs fed on?
		
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The Husky is also on the Pedigree and she is fine on it

The Chihuahua and the Chi/Shitzu are on Bakers meaty meals for small dogs...Chi is a fussy eater and this is the only thing we can get him to eat, they were previously on Pedigree dry food with a sachet of soft meat mixed as they wouldn't eat it just dry...maybe because it is crap?


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## Dobiegirl (23 January 2013)

Look at the site I gave you originally and look up Bakers, and click on the search button on here and you wont see a good word about it.


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## lexiedhb (23 January 2013)

Bakers will literally kill your dog, it has been shown to contain cancer causing agents......... sorry but it is one of the worst. I used to feed wainwrights trays from P@H or skinners kibble (cheap) my boy did well on it bar the wind.....

A dog wont starve itself- put food (of your choice) down for 20 mins, if its not eaten remove- offer it again at the next meal time- repeat, until the little gits eat it 

Read these if you are against raw

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/255727-updated-dry-dog-food-index.html


http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/194976-wet-dog-food-index.html


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

lexiedhb said:



			Bakers will literally kill your dog, it has been shown to contain cancer causing agents......... sorry but it is one of the worst. I used to feed wainwrights trays from P@H or skinners kibble (cheap) my boy did well on it bar the wind.....

A dog wont starve itself- put food (of your choice) down for 20 mins, if its not eaten remove- offer it again at the next meal time- repeat, until the little gits eat it 

Read these if you are against raw

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/255727-updated-dry-dog-food-index.html


http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/194976-wet-dog-food-index.html

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Yup....tried that, and he didn't eat for over a week. He was brought up on "human food" therefore dog food doesn't appeal to him. I know Bakers is probably worse than Pedigree! Full of sugars and colourings apprently or so I've heard. The only other food he seemed to enjoy was Wagg.... again, crap. But he seems to like the crap ones


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## Cyrus (23 January 2013)

I dont like the feel of raw meat maybe I'll stop feeding it and take madam to McDonald's everyday as pedigree is pretty much McDonald's for dogs, to be honest the human macdonalds would probably be better for her lol


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

Cyrus said:



			I dont like the feel of raw meat maybe I'll stop feeding it and take madam to McDonald's everyday as pedigree is pretty much McDonald's for dogs, to be honest the human macdonalds would probably be better for her lol
		
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And this is supposed to mean....? She is a he anyway


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## Cyrus (23 January 2013)

My dog is a she and she is the one im talking about in my post
All I am meaning is when I decided to get my girl I didn't think about what was best or more convenient for me I thought about my dog I hate the feel of raw meat but still feed it I have strict vegan friends who also feed their dogs raw because its what they were weaned on to 
Pedigree is one of the worst foods for dogs of these type


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## Jools1234 (23 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			... I have never said Pedigree is good...he's on it as a last resort, also the reason why I have posted the question, reason being I don't want to keep him on it
		
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but you are feeding your husky it too?

look up the decent dry food (if you want to feed dry) and feed them all the same decent stuff rather than stuff that could possibly put them in the ground early.

i used to feed mine stuff and asked for advice on here it turned out what i was feeding was c**p so guess what i changed what i fed them.

it is not tricky and there are no catches-they will eat what you put down if you keep putting the same type of food down day after day they will eventually eat it


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

Cyrus said:



			My dog is a she and she is the one im talking about in my post
All I am meaning is when I decided to get my girl I didn't think about what was best or more convenient for me I thought about my dog I hate the feel of raw meat but still feed it I have strict vegan friends who also feed their dogs raw because its what they were weaned on to 
Pedigree is one of the worst foods for dogs of these type
		
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Again, I am well aware Pedigree is no good which is why I am asking the question of what food will be better for him. If you read an earlier post he was picky with the raw meat and wouldn't eat it all, he was more interested in the other dogs food which is why I weaned him off it and on to a dry food which he gobbles down and enjoys a lot more, it just doesnt come out the other end very well...so, therefore I am looking for a raw meat-a-like dry food or something along those lines. So before you have a sarcastic blow I am not thinking of myself and a convenient way to feed him (in an ideal world I would love them all to be on the same food) but like I said earlier he is a different type of dog to the others and if he requires a different food so be it, I'm trying to find whats best for him.


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## kirstys 1 (23 January 2013)

HorseyLad said:



			If money not tight then look at the Orijen range, very good quality food, it's like feeding raw but in biscuit form.
		
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Agreed!


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## Jools1234 (23 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Again, I am well aware Pedigree is no good which is why I am asking the question of what food will be better for him. If you read an earlier post he was picky with the raw meat and wouldn't eat it all, he was more interested in the other dogs food which is why I weaned him off it and on to a dry food which he gobbles down and enjoys a lot more, it just doesnt come out the other end very well...so, therefore I am looking for a raw meat-a-like dry food or something along those lines. So before you have a sarcastic blow I am not thinking of myself and a convenient way to feed him (in an ideal world I would love them all to be on the same food) but like I said earlier he is a different type of dog to the others and if he requires a different food so be it, I'm trying to find whats best for him.
		
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so put them all on raw, problem solved


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

Jools1234 said:



			but you are feeding your husky it too?

look up the decent dry food (if you want to feed dry) and feed them all the same decent stuff rather than stuff that could possibly put them in the ground early.

i used to feed mine stuff and asked for advice on here it turned out what i was feeding was c**p so guess what i changed what i fed them.

it is not tricky and there are no catches-they will eat what you put down if you keep putting the same type of food down day after day they will eventually eat it
		
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Yes she is also on the Pedigree too but ideally they could both go on to the same food. Its just "something better than nothing" really at the moment. 

Had a few suggestions on here so its just a case of trial and error really!


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

Jools1234 said:



			so put them all on raw, problem solved
		
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Chihuahua won't eat it full stop and like I already said, the wolf pup wouldn't really eat it either....I don't have the fridge/freezer space to keep raw meat for 4 dogs, so a raw meat-a-like food is what I'm looking for


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## Jools1234 (23 January 2013)

how long have you had the wolf/dog? how many different foods have you tried?  bare with me this is leading somewhere


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## RichmondPark (23 January 2013)

Hi

There could be a few ingredients in the pedigree dog food that could be causing your pup to have such badly formed stools. Could be too much feeding and food not being absorbed properly or ingredients in the Pedigree dog food. 

Ingredients such a cereals, beet plup, brewers yeast are just fillers and cheap versions of vegetable related protien designed to bulk up not only the food but the protien levels of the food as a whole whilst reducing the more expensive meat based protiens which are much better quality protien source for dogs. There is good protien and bad protien and most of the major brands stuff their dog food full of the bad  (vegetable) protein. Definately profit before welfare!

I see that you have had a look at Fish4Dogs which on the whole is a decent food although some of them do contain beet pulp, brewers years and one of them contain up to 22% pea flour! Whats a dog doing eating that amount of peas?? So be careful which one you purchase and read the ingredients list on the back.

If you have already bought some and your dogs are doing well on it, great, but if you havent bought any yet could I suggest Eden Pet Foods. They are just 2pounds more expensive but you get 15Kg rather than 12Kg and you tend to feed them less of it as it is packed full of whole meat protein and oily fish. (doesnt smell either)

The owners of the dog food have a group on FB that you can join and also you can contact them directly. They have Chi's and Leonbergers I believe. The great things about their food is that it is the closest thing you will get to the raw feeding in kibble form and is holistic. The owner is a vet nutritionist and they customer service is second to none.

You can order small sample bags to try out on your dog and if they like it great if not at least you havent got a 15kg sack to get rid of. They also do 3 different kibble sizes, small, medium and large. 

I have read some amazing stories on their FB page about dogs that prior to eating Eden had suffered from sores/wet eczema, tear stains, poor weight control, soft squishy stools and one in perticular that has an auto immune disease that since being on Eden had made tremendous progress in putting on weight and getting back to his old self before his illness. The reports really do speak for themselves.

But like I said contact those at Eden they are fab to talk too and have so much more information than I can possibly give.

Good luck and hopefully what ever food you decide to give your dog, hope his backside sorts itself out.

http://edenpetfoods.com/index.html


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

Jools1234 said:



			how long have you had the wolf/dog? how many different foods have you tried?  bare with me this is leading somewhere

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Had him about 2/3 months now? Tried him on the raw meat, Wagg (didn't like the colourings in it, poos were orange  ) another dry food which I can't remember the name of (doh) but his poos went worse and now the Pedigree. 

I know changing his food isn't going to help overnight and changing isn't good for them anyway! Would rather find a good decent food for him as soon as possible as it obviously isn't agreeing with him, even though he likes whatever he gets lol and his poops aren't the most pleasant to pick up!


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

RichmondPark said:



			Hi

There could be a few ingredients in the pedigree dog food that could be causing your pup to have such badly formed stools. Could be too much feeding and food not being absorbed properly or ingredients in the Pedigree dog food. 

Ingredients such a cereals, beet plup, brewers yeast are just fillers and cheap versions of vegetable related protien designed to bulk up not only the food but the protien levels of the food as a whole whilst reducing the more expensive meat based protiens which are much better quality protien source for dogs. There is good protien and bad protien and most of the major brands stuff their dog food full of the bad  (vegetable) protein. Definately profit before welfare!

I see that you have had a look at Fish4Dogs which on the whole is a decent food although some of them do contain beet pulp, brewers years and one of them contain up to 22% pea flour! Whats a dog doing eating that amount of peas?? So be careful which one you purchase and read the ingredients list on the back.

If you have already bought some and your dogs are doing well on it, great, but if you havent bought any yet could I suggest Eden Pet Foods. They are just 2pounds more expensive but you get 15Kg rather than 12Kg and you tend to feed them less of it as it is packed full of whole meat protein and oily fish. (doesnt smell either)

The owners of the dog food have a group on FB that you can join and also you can contact them directly. They have Chi's and Leonbergers I believe. The great things about their food is that it is the closest thing you will get to the raw feeding in kibble form and is holistic. The owner is a vet nutritionist and they customer service is second to none.

You can order small sample bags to try out on your dog and if they like it great if not at least you havent got a 15kg sack to get rid of. They also do 3 different kibble sizes, small, medium and large. 

I have read some amazing stories on their FB page about dogs that prior to eating Eden had suffered from sores/wet eczema, tear stains, poor weight control, soft squishy stools and one in perticular that has an auto immune disease that since being on Eden had made tremendous progress in putting on weight and getting back to his old self before his illness. The reports really do speak for themselves.

But like I said contact those at Eden they are fab to talk too and have so much more information than I can possibly give.

Good luck and hopefully what ever food you decide to give your dog, hope his backside sorts itself out.

http://edenpetfoods.com/index.html

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Great thanks for that! I'm on their website now so I will get in touch with them. If all of the dogs can go on it that would be a bonus so a sample bag would be fab to try them all with it. 

Will give it a go


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## RichmondPark (23 January 2013)

Let us know how you get on especially with the fussy Chi as quite a fair few fussy eaters go nuts for this food including my own dog who gets it now and again along with raw.


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

RichmondPark said:



			Let us know how you get on especially with the fussy Chi as quite a fair few fussy eaters go nuts for this food including my own dog who gets it now and again along with raw.
		
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Ordered a sample bag so I will keep you updated


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## MurphysMinder (23 January 2013)

I would recommend Fish4Dogs, but the puppy food does smell quite fishy so if you are sensitive to smell it might not be suitable.  It is however a very good feed, I reared my litter last year on it, and all the puppy owners kept their pups on it (I did recommend a couple of other foods on the diet sheet, but I am afraid I also mentioned some not to touch).  At 10 months they are all now changing to an adult food, I have suggested Skinners Duck & rice as an alternative but I think most are happy with the Fish4dogs.  Great customer service from them by the way, they even helped one owner source a supplier in Spain!
If you wanted to keep him on a raw type diet, and although I have no experience of wolfdogs and husky types I have heard it is best for them, you could always try Nature Diet or Natural Instinct.


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## FinnishLapphund (23 January 2013)

blackcob said:



			My suggestion would be to return to the raw diet, northern/spitzy/husky types tend to do poorly on grain based food.
		
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Since both Norwegian Buhunds (which I used to own) and Finnish Lapphunds (have 3 now) are definitely spitzy breeds, I wanted to say that at least these two spitz breeds are known as very good doers and that I've not heard anything about them tending to do poorly on grain based food. 


I'm happy with feeding my bitches the dry food that I've chosen, of a small, local brand, and I hope RCP Equestrian finds a food, raw, dry or wet, that works for her and her dog/dogs.


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## EAST KENT (23 January 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Wow, if I was a breeder who had weaned a puppy onto raw I'd be annoyed that he'd been switched onto Pedigree.

Raw may smell a but but it is infinitely better than Pedigree! Think of your dog's welfare rather than your nose. The runny poos should be telling you something - and you've tried 'everything'? How many times have you changed his food at 14 weeks?

It's a dog bred to look like a wolf, with possibly some wolf DNA, not an actual wolf by the way, otherwise you'd need a license to keep it 

Suggest you get yourself to a good training class or locate someone knowledgeable about dogs of this breed, you may need a little experienced guidance 

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As a breeder who keeps her dogs and puppies entirely on raw I would be spitting feathers if someone promptly undid my hard work by changing to a rubbish diet from the best a pup can have.I have seen far too many puppies ruined like this,and would go so far as to refuse a sale if a buyer could not be arsed to follow the prescribed diet sheet.


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## Cyrus (23 January 2013)

East Kent you sound like my breeder lol I think she would deck me if I decided not to feed madam raw it would be like throwing years of her research and hard work out the window


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## Cinnamontoast (23 January 2013)

Please read the links on food indexes you were given. 

Pedigree, Wagg and Bakers and Chappie dry all contain carcinogenic (cancer causing) ingredients. Regardless of how fussy your chi is, I'd be switching that one. And I certainly wouldn't be funding a company that spends more on advertising than putting decent ingredients into their food.

Close to natural if such a thing can happen with kibble are Orijen, Acana, Fish4dogs. 

I had no freezer room so I bought one and put it in the shed. A £60 order lasts three dogs over two months. 

If you want any help with raw, read the raw link Neversaynever posted. I and many others helped write it or got advice from it. You oly need the first few pages.


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## blackcob (23 January 2013)

FinnishLapphund said:



			Since both Norwegian Buhunds (which I used to own) and Finnish Lapphunds (have 3 now) are definitely spitzy breeds, I wanted to say that at least these two spitz breeds are known as very good doers and that I've not heard anything about them tending to do poorly on grain based food.
		
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Not so much poorly as not keeping weight on but things like poorer coat condition, itchiness, hot spots, runny eyes/tear staining and definitely more tartar on the teeth. Then again I observe this in many other breeds on diets like Pedigree and Bakers.  Perhaps I should have narrowed it down to sibes, mals and inuit-y type things, spitzy things is maybe too broad.


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## SusieT (23 January 2013)

try james wellbeloved, or barking heads as budget foods that dogs seem to do well one.


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## willhegofirst (23 January 2013)

We tried our youngest Spin on several different complete foods, came being fed jwb, she was loose on all. Only when we changed her to raw did the loose poo stop, she hasn't looked back, we put both dogs onto raw at the same time, mainly get chicken plus tinned sardines a couple of times a week and tripe frozen in their kongs and a few veggies.


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## Teaselmeg (23 January 2013)

PLEASE don't feed Pedigree or Bakers, my mother lost her bedlington x from feeding Pedigree dried food - it has a high copper content to make it more palatible to dogs, this triggered an episode of Copper Toxicosis which killed him.  

I feed raw, but I also am not a fan of dealing with raw meat, so I feed Natural Instinct. It is minced meat/bone and vegetables, you just defrost it and spoon it into the bowls - so simple and not very smelly at all.  If you live in Surrey, their factory shop is in Camberley, just off the M3, go along and have a chat.


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## RCP Equestrian (23 January 2013)

Thanks guys, I have ordered a sample bag from Eden foods which is a dry food version of a raw diet. 

East Kent - a reply to you, I am looking for an alternative and doing what is best for my puppy. If you had bothered to read any of my previous posts he didnt eat the raw meat so I felt he wasnt getting everything he should from it if he wasnt eating it. Hence this post and at least the majority of people have offered useful advice and told me makes of food that I can try him on, rather than the likes of yourself and certain others just using it as a chance to have a dig at the girl that "wont feed raw meat" when actually you're just wasting your time  thanks anyway!


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## Cinnamontoast (23 January 2013)

You posted on a widely used forum. You got some answers you don't like, which is only to be expected. 

It is unfortunate, IMO, to ignore the experience and wisdom of various people on here. I have used or discarded advice as I saw fit, but I see no need to be arrogant and rude about it. You asked, we answered. 

I'm glad for your dogs' sake that you are researching a quality feed, but do take a breath and consider how you're coming across. People will be reluctant to answer your threads if you are super abrasive and whilst that probably doesn't bother you, it's a shame to not have the gamut of responses that you _could_ have.


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## Cyrus (24 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Thanks guys, I have ordered a sample bag from Eden foods which is a dry food version of a raw diet. 

East Kent - a reply to you, I am looking for an alternative and doing what is best for my puppy. If you had bothered to read any of my previous posts he didnt eat the raw meat so I felt he wasnt getting everything he should from it if he wasnt eating it. Hence this post and at least the majority of people have offered useful advice and told me makes of food that I can try him on, rather than the likes of yourself and certain others just using it as a chance to have a dig at the girl that "wont feed raw meat" when actually you're just wasting your time  thanks anyway!
		
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Could I ask how long you fed it for after he came home? Did you speak to your breeder and ask for her thoughts on the problem as no doubt pup will have been eating raw quite happily at the breeders otherwise she will not have seen fit to send you home with a bag of that diet.
I only ask as my malamute bitch a previous Hoover/dustbin of a dog moved up north with me to my parents when my relationship broke down she had a good 3 weeks where she ate maybe every two days instead of her usual every day, my breeder was my first port of call


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## RCP Equestrian (24 January 2013)

Cyrus said:



			Could I ask how long you fed it for after he came home? Did you speak to your breeder and ask for her thoughts on the problem as no doubt pup will have been eating raw quite happily at the breeders otherwise she will not have seen fit to send you home with a bag of that diet.
I only ask as my malamute bitch a previous Hoover/dustbin of a dog moved up north with me to my parents when my relationship broke down she had a good 3 weeks where she ate maybe every two days instead of her usual every day, my breeder was my first port of call
		
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He was on it for the first 2wks being fed twice a day. I tried keeping him away from the other dogs whilst being fed to stop the temptation of them having "more interesting food" than him but when I returned he had picked at some bits but just seemed dis interested. I'm not sure what he was like eating wise whilst still with the breeder. At first I gave him his dues as he was in a new home and possibly distracted as I know when they move they can go off their food, but after 2wks he was still as dis interested so I started mixing dry food in where he would polish that off and not the raw meat? Which is why I thought a dry food version of raw meat would suit him in a way which he is getting all the nutrients of the raw but in a form he much prefers to eat...and also which is bum will prefer (hope!)


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## NeverSayNever (24 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Which is why I thought a dry food version of raw meat would suit him in a way which he is getting all the nutrients of the raw but in a form he much prefers to eat...and also which is bum will prefer (hope!) 

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...you wont get one though, that's the problem. 

Did you try him on any of the minces or was it all legs, wings and the like? did you consider Natural Instinct ??


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## RCP Equestrian (24 January 2013)

cinnamontoast said:



			You posted on a widely used forum. You got some answers you don't like, which is only to be expected. 

It is unfortunate, IMO, to ignore the experience and wisdom of various people on here. I have used or discarded advice as I saw fit, but I see no need to be arrogant and rude about it. You asked, we answered. 

I'm glad for your dogs' sake that you are researching a quality feed, but do take a breath and consider how you're coming across. People will be reluctant to answer your threads if you are super abrasive and whilst that probably doesn't bother you, it's a shame to not have the gamut of responses that you _could_ have.
		
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The forum was my last resort to be quite honest as some comments on here drive me crazy, which I usually ignore and brush off, which is the type of person I am, not a snapper  but when people jump the gun and go ahead and assume I am the bad one as I have un done all the hard work the breeder has done and that I am killing my dog feeding him Pedigree I find really rude as it isn't the case at all, when in fact the whole point of my post was to find the best food for him and get him off the killer food! I would never post some of the things people have said on here as I am not quick to judge, but when people do I'm afraid they see the sharper side of my tongue. So I apologise if I have offended anyone


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## RCP Equestrian (24 January 2013)

NeverSayNever said:



			...you wont get one though, that's the problem. 

Did you try him on any of the minces or was it all legs, wings and the like? did you consider Natural Instinct ??
		
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I've found a dry food by Eden which someone on here recommended so I have ordered a sample bag of that and I have ordered the Natural Instinct as well so I will see which goes best. Not sure if it would be too much having a bit of each? Anyone know if that is a good idea or not? 

It was hearts, livers, legs, wings all sorts! Haha he picked at the hearts and livers and chewed a few legs but had to be persuaded to eat those. So I think he likes the more meaty types rather than the bones so he might like the Natural Instinct food.


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## Ilovefoals (24 January 2013)

Natural Instinct should be much more appealing to him.  I fed my Dane on it til it got too expensive as she grew but she loved it.  It has everything in it that they need and a really easy to swallow texture.  You can always buy him meaty bones to chew on from your butcher for his teeth as well as that'll keep them healthy and white.


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## misterjinglejay (24 January 2013)

Cyrus said:



			East Kent you sound like my breeder lol I think she would deck me if I decided not to feed madam raw it would be like throwing years of her research and hard work out the window
		
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LOL she would deck you, and then her husband would deck you harder 

I was a bit wary after having all of my samoyeds on kibble (Skinners) for 20 plus years, to change to raw when i got my mal pups. I'd been veggie for years and still wasn't used to handling and smelling raw meat, but it's so good for the dogs. Everything is digested, the poos are little, hard and non smelly, no more skin problems or hotspots, and my samoyeds tucked into it straight away.

You can get a mincer, or buy ready minced, bone and meat for your chi to eat, he may find that easier.


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## RCP Equestrian (24 January 2013)

Ilovefoals said:



			Natural Instinct should be much more appealing to him.  I fed my Dane on it til it got too expensive as she grew but she loved it.  It has everything in it that they need and a really easy to swallow texture.  You can always buy him meaty bones to chew on from your butcher for his teeth as well as that'll keep them healthy and white.
		
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Thanks  yeah I have been getting him bones still as a treat and to keep his teeth healthy, and also for his teething. 

I was open to trying the raw meat diet for him as I'm no means against it but as he wasn't interested and I didn't have a peg for my nose it didn't seem worth continuing. Lets hope this alternitive works for him as I want him on the best diet he can get, something he isn't on at the moment


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## RCP Equestrian (24 January 2013)

misterjay said:



			LOL she would deck you, and then her husband would deck you harder 

I was a bit wary after having all of my samoyeds on kibble (Skinners) for 20 plus years, to change to raw when i got my mal pups. I'd been veggie for years and still wasn't used to handling and smelling raw meat, but it's so good for the dogs. Everything is digested, the poos are little, hard and non smelly, no more skin problems or hotspots, and my samoyeds tucked into it straight away.

You can get a mincer, or buy ready minced, bone and meat for your chi to eat, he may find that easier.
		
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I'm not against raw meat at all and if he was eating it he would still be on it, I could cope with the smell...I'd have to for the sake of his diet needs! But as he wouldn't eat it I thought he would be better on a food he enjoys (which was the hard food) to which I found is no good for his digestion. I'll try him on the samples I have coming of a raw meat ready made so it is more inviting and also a hard food version to see which he prefers

Wish me luck! LOL


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## lexiedhb (24 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			and that I am killing my dog feeding him Pedigree I find really rude as it isn't the case at all, /QUOTE]

What is the point in asking for help if you believe what you currently feed is good for your dogs? 

Pedigree/bakers CAN kill your dog- so it IS the case-  its not just our opinion- its fact- Cinnamontoast has researched this until she is blue in the face- has some VERY interesting articles on what these "foods" contain- and many of them cause nasty disease.
		
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## RCP Equestrian (24 January 2013)

Richie said:



			My sister has four huskies - who are loving the January snow!

She feeds and recommends Ziwi Peak which they love.

*VioVet's website product description for Ziwi Peak:*
"ZiwiPeak Cuisine Cans offer a range of wholesome and nutritionally balanced wet food diets for dogs, irrespective of size, age or breed. The cans contain replicate ingredients consumed in the wild, including carefully selected raw meat proteins and naturally blended vitamins, minerals and fibres for a complete and tailored meal. ZiwiPeak foods contain only the finest quality, natural ingredients, free from all artificial supplements, cereal fillers or grains, so you can be assured your dog is receiving the very best in dietary care. A suitable diet for dogs at any life stage, with highly digestible and palatable ingredients to appeal to the most selective appetites."

Good food is just so important for dogs. Their health depends on a decent diet.
		
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Thanks for that! Yes our Husky and the Wolf of course are loving the snow, same can't be said for the Chihuahuas who much prefer to be curled up next to the fire  

I shall have a read and if all else fails with the foods I have ordered I'm open to give them a try. Like you say, I just want what is best for him


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## RCP Equestrian (24 January 2013)

lexiedhb said:





RCP Equestrian said:



			and that I am killing my dog feeding him Pedigree I find really rude as it isn't the case at all, /QUOTE]

What is the point in asking for help if you believe what you currently feed is good for your dogs? 

Pedigree/bakers CAN kill your dog- so it IS the case-  its not just our opinion- its fact- Cinnamontoast has researched this until she is blue in the face- has some VERY interesting articles on what these "foods" contain- and many of them cause nasty disease.
		
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OMG!!!!!!! This is what drives me mad......I have agreed with everyone who has said Pedigree is crap and if you read back through my comments I have also said it is crap and is a last resort, hence the reason for this post in the first place, so I can get him off it as soon as possible and on to something that is good for him and that he is getting everything he needs! Why would I be posting this in the first place if I thought what I was feeding him now was good for him???? Really???

But you can rest assured now as I have ordered Natural Instinct wet food and also Eden dry food, both contain raw meat and everything that they would get from a raw meat diet.
		
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## lexiedhb (24 January 2013)

You said us saying pedigree was *****e and that is could kill your dog was "Rude and isnt the case at all". Make your mind up.

You also in your original post did not mention said Wolfdog did not like raw- but that you weaned him off it because of the smell.

Have you tried Wainwrights trays? P@H own brand- high meat content- readily available. Probably cheaper than Natural instinct. You can also buy frozen nature diet nuggets at P@H too.


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## RCP Equestrian (24 January 2013)

lexiedhb said:



			You said us saying pedigree was *****e and that is could kill your dog was "Rude and isnt the case at all". Make your mind up.

You also in your original post did not mention said Wolfdog did not like raw- but that you weaned him off it because of the smell.

Have you tried Wainwrights trays? P@H own brand- high meat content- readily available. Probably cheaper than Natural instinct. You can also buy frozen nature diet nuggets at P@H too.
		
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Sorry, forgot to include every fine detail in my OP 

No you saying I was killing my dog is rude, I've taken him off the Pedigree (as of today) as the new food I ordered is arriving. If I wanted to keep him on the Pedigree then yes, I would be killing my dog so therefore it isn't the case at all. Anyway all I asked for was which food was best, not a grilling on what is wrong! Geez. 

Greatful for the useful piece of info at the end though


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## EAST KENT (24 January 2013)

If you cannot take advice ,then why ask? Your breeder was doing just fine and so was your pup..now?Dogs LIKE their food smelly,that is why they will bury bones to "mature". 
    That Camberly factory mentioned sounds the deal,NO dried food is as good as raw,bones and all,fact. You bougt a breed who really does need natural feeding due to it`s ancestry, some breeds may jog along on commercial crap but your`s will not.Presumably the closely related to the wild attracted you to get one,well feeding natural is part and parcel of these breeds.I boarded an entire working pack of Sibes once,and feeding them any cereal was out,it caused monumental squits. As racing dogs they were lean but very healthy indeed.
   Get him back on track soonest,and that does not include dry crap.


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## RCP Equestrian (24 January 2013)

EAST KENT said:



			If you cannot take advice ,then why ask? Your breeder was doing just fine and so was your pup..now?Dogs LIKE their food smelly,that is why they will bury bones to "mature". 
    That Camberly factory mentioned sounds the deal,NO dried food is as good as raw,bones and all,fact. You bougt a breed who really does need natural feeding due to it`s ancestry, some breeds may jog along on commercial crap but your`s will not.Presumably the closely related to the wild attracted you to get one,well feeding natural is part and parcel of these breeds.I boarded an entire working pack of Sibes once,and feeding them any cereal was out,it caused monumental squits. As racing dogs they were lean but very healthy indeed.
   Get him back on track soonest,and that does not include dry crap.
		
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Telling me that I am killing my dog quite frankly is not advice to me. He wasn't doing well on the raw meat diet, as if you had read, he wasn't eating it. I have taken the advice I was given by others and I am changing him to Natural Instinct and also ordered a sample bag of dry natural raw meat type food which someone suggested on here. 

So I am actually taking peoples advice which is what I asked for in the first place, not a grilling or criticism. Quite frankly it isn't necessary, you don't know me or the puppy yet people seem to know more about him! The one thing I have been stressing is that, and which I have been getting slaughtered for, is taking him off the raw meat diet, yet haven't bothered to read in to my reasonings why. But, now I know a standard dry dog food isn't agreeing with him, I am trying to find a raw meat diet which he is happy to tuck in to and will agree more with his tummy....so of course I am going to snap back at people who aren't leaving advice they are just using it as an excuse to have a dig, simples!


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## NeverSayNever (24 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			I've found a dry food by Eden which someone on here recommended so I have ordered a sample bag of that and I have ordered the Natural Instinct as well so I will see which goes best. Not sure if it would be too much having a bit of each? Anyone know if that is a good idea or not? 

It was hearts, livers, legs, wings all sorts! Haha he picked at the hearts and livers and chewed a few legs but had to be persuaded to eat those. So I think he likes the more meaty types rather than the bones so he might like the Natural Instinct food.
		
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excellent! 

no dont feed the 2 together. Raw and dry are digested at different rates and mixing them can cause big problems. It wouldnt be so bad to do dry for breakfast then the raw for dinner, say 8 hours later.  Im sure he will find the NI more appealing (and so will you). Good luck.


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## MurphysMinder (24 January 2013)

OP while I appreciate you will be keen to stop feeding pedigree, please don't just stop feeding and swap straight on to new feed , just introduce gradually over a few days.


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## RCP Equestrian (24 January 2013)

MurphysMinder said:



			OP while I appreciate you will be keen to stop feeding pedigree, please don't just stop feeding and swap straight on to new feed , just introduce gradually over a few days.
		
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I know, the only time I wish I didn't have to wean!  but yes as always, I'll do it gradually


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## RCP Equestrian (24 January 2013)

NeverSayNever said:



			excellent! 

no dont feed the 2 together. Raw and dry are digested at different rates and mixing them can cause big problems. It wouldnt be so bad to do dry for breakfast then the raw for dinner, say 8 hours later.  Im sure he will find the NI more appealing (and so will you). Good luck.
		
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Cool thanks, I will try that  if it turns out he prefers one more than the other thats the food I will stick to, so he shall decide!


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## FinnishLapphund (24 January 2013)

EAST KENT said:



			As a breeder who keeps her dogs and puppies entirely on raw I would be spitting feathers if someone promptly undid my hard work by changing to a rubbish diet from the best a pup can have.I have seen far too many puppies ruined like this,and would go so far as to refuse a sale if a buyer could not be arsed to follow the prescribed diet sheet.
		
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Cyrus said:



			East Kent you sound like my breeder lol I think she would deck me if I decided not to feed madam raw it would be like throwing years of her research and hard work out the window
		
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misterjay said:



			LOL she would deck you, and then her husband would deck you harder 
I was a bit wary after having all of my samoyeds on kibble (Skinners) for 20 plus years, to change to raw when i got my mal pups. I'd been veggie for years and still wasn't used to handling and smelling raw meat, but it's so good for the dogs. Everything is digested, the poos are little, hard and non smelly, no more skin problems or hotspots, and my samoyeds tucked into it straight away.
You can get a mincer, or buy ready minced, bone and meat for your chi to eat, he may find that easier.
		
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I must say that just as I have difficulties with Parelli, some vegan groups and some religious groups etc., because of  their belief that their way is the only right way for everyone, I also have a problem with *some* raw feeders, that sounds as if there is only one right way for all dog owners - and that is their way! 
But I try to remember that it is my interpretation, and that it doesn't have to be the way those raw feeders really believe.

However saying that if you didn't feed raw "she would deck you, and then her husband would deck you harder" about a breeder, well, even though I don't take that literally, it doesn't sound like good PR for raw feeding to me. 


Personally I prefer Blackcob's way of using words like "suggestion" and "tend to do poorly", because it leaves a small opening for other options.  
I also noticed that East Kent have said "some breeds may jog along on commercial crap but your`s will not", which at least gives some other dog owners a bit more options.


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## RutlandH2O (24 January 2013)

OP, has your pup had loose stools since the day you acquired him, regardless of his diet? If so, it might be a good idea to have his stool analysed for a few other things in addition to worms...things like the protozoan diseases giardia and coccidiosis. I believe another poster suggested he be checked for salmonella and campylobacter infections. You mentioned that his breeder had quite a few dogs and pups. Perhaps a call to the breeder and a description of your pup's symptoms and a question as to the condition of her pups might be in order.

Good luck with whatever diet you decide to prepare for your dogs.


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## {97702} (24 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Anyway....back to my original question.....if you aren't here to answer it then quite frankly you can bog off 

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What a clever thing to post when using your business name as a user name on an internet forum....


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## Cyrus (24 January 2013)

I understand your meaning FL and it was meant in the most fun way my girls breeder was one of the first people in this country to feed the RAW diet she has studied it and wrote papers on obviously her specialist area is how the diet effects the spitz breeds especially huskies, malamutes and other sled dogs which she has been involved with for many many years MisterJay knows her well too as she has puppies from her too


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## shadowboy (24 January 2013)

I have a malamute. Different but similar. He can't eat grain. Full stop. It would kills him to do so, we nearly inadvertently did so when he was a puppy- similar age to yours. His body joust couldn't take cereals anymore and his intestines were in trouble. He's now on fishmongers which has NO grains (even rice sets him off- we've tried) we love him too much to try anything else now and although its bloody expensive (10kg bag £30 lasts 2 weeks!!) I would try something with potato as this often helps solidfy poops


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## toffeeyummy (24 January 2013)

I haven't managed to get through all of this thread but can I ask why you all think pedigree is crap? All my dogs are fed on this, they look great on it. Have you ever visited the multi million pound site in Waltham where they do extensive research on this food?


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## Dobiegirl (24 January 2013)

toffeeyummy said:



			I haven't managed to get through all of this thread but can I ask why you all think pedigree is crap? All my dogs are fed on this, they look great on it. Have you ever visited the multi million pound site in Waltham where they do extensive research on this food?
		
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http://www.whichdogfood.co.uk/dog-food-review.php?id=0053  Check out the ingredients which are nearly all in red.


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## toffeeyummy (24 January 2013)

And these are bad because...?


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## Dobiegirl (24 January 2013)

Most of the ingredients are grains, in fact if you made your dog a beef or chicken sandwich  it would have less grains than that dog food


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## Cinnamontoast (24 January 2013)

toffeeyummy said:



			I haven't managed to get through all of this thread but can I ask why you all think pedigree is crap? All my dogs are fed on this, they look great on it. Have you ever visited the multi million pound site in Waltham where they do extensive research on this food?
		
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toffeeyummy said:



			And these are bad because...?
		
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Pedigree dried food contains BHA and BHT, carcinogens. It is a crap, lowest possible quality food. Cereal is a filler, unnecessary ingredient. Would you offer your dog wheat or hay like a horse? The makers use their budget to advertise instead of using decent ingredients. Unless you have x ray vision, you have no idea what is going on inside your dog. Dog food makers incorporate oils to make the coat shiny so you think he looks great.

Please research the ingredients of this food: I'll be amazed if you stick with it. 

The specialist who showed me the stomach cancer in my dog told me it was directly related to poor nutrition. I'll give you three guesses as to what he was fed. 

Read to the bottom where BHT/BHA are mentioned:
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=1882&cat=all


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## toffeeyummy (25 January 2013)

This is pretty unbelievable! I can't understand how a leading pet food company is producing a food that is directly linked to a dogs stomach cancer?! Has anyone challenged pedigree over this? I certainly will be in touch. There are thousands of dogs on this food (including the 250 dogs at their research centre). Are they all deemed to become ill??
(sorry for the hijack op)


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## Amymay (25 January 2013)

There are thousands of dogs on this food
		
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How many develop cancer I wonder


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## EAST KENT (25 January 2013)

Do any of you lot remember seeing green rotten piles of chicken being bulldosed?Guess where that was headed.The stuff in dry diets,because these makers are NOT charitable,are the cheapest they can procure and then boiled silly,extruded into pellets and sold for as much as they think you will stomach.It is called business.Iams/Eukanuba?Well Paul Iams had the hugest string of chicken broiler farms in America..there is always a mortality rate..used to live beside one...and dead going green in the heat carcasses are removed every day.Mr Iams,brilliant business man,worked out a way to make these totally unsaleable waste products into dog food.Hey Presto..he is a millionaire!
    Now ,OK,I feed raw,mainly because I bloody well want to know what my dogs consume BEFORE it is prettied up for the pet food trade.I think our OP ,in the very first instance should have called up her breeder!


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## misterjinglejay (25 January 2013)

Cyrus said:



			I understand your meaning FL and it was meant in the most fun way my girls breeder was one of the first people in this country to feed the RAW diet she has studied it and wrote papers on obviously her specialist area is how the diet effects the spitz breeds especially huskies, malamutes and other sled dogs which she has been involved with for many many years MisterJay knows her well too as she has puppies from her too
		
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Yes, FL, it was most certainly meant in jest, and I'm sorry if it came across wrong (which it obviously did ).

Meanwhile, Rutland's suggestion sounds like a good path to take, as well as the change of diet.

Good luck with your poopy and his poopies


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## maximum (25 January 2013)

Even one dog getting stomach cancer as a result of food additives is one too many. There are alternative preservatives that could be used.
Not everyone who smokes gets lung cancer but people can make a choice to take a risk. Dogs cannot choose so it is up to owners to keep up to date and make the best choices for their pets


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## RCP Equestrian (25 January 2013)

Picklenash said:



			What a clever thing to post when using your business name as a user name on an internet forum....

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Very clever....no swearing and I said it with a smile


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## RCP Equestrian (25 January 2013)

Update guys....

Natural Instinct food is being delivered today! Huraay!

I will be burning the bag of Pedigree as soon as he's weaned off it. Who wants to come and dance around the flames with me?


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## Oberon (25 January 2013)

I have a Wolf like dog (mix of husky, malamute, GSD, Czech wolf).

I fed a 'good quality kibble' on the advice of the breeder.

He was always itchy and scabby skin.

I switched over to Raw and he got much better and the poops are much nicer to deal with. I also find him calmer on Raw.

I feed it mostly frozen and there is no smell - just chuck a lump at him and leave him to it. 

If I were to back to kibble though, I would use Orjen/Taste of the Wild or Fish4Dogs as I understand they are the three best kibbles.


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## RCP Equestrian (25 January 2013)

FinnishLapphund said:



			I must say that just as I have difficulties with Parelli, some vegan groups and some religious groups etc., because of  their belief that their way is the only right way for everyone, I also have a problem with *some* raw feeders, that sounds as if there is only one right way for all dog owners - and that is their way! 
But I try to remember that it is my interpretation, and that it doesn't have to be the way those raw feeders really believe.

However saying that if you didn't feed raw "she would deck you, and then her husband would deck you harder" about a breeder, well, even though I don't take that literally, it doesn't sound like good PR for raw feeding to me. 


Personally I prefer Blackcob's way of using words like "suggestion" and "tend to do poorly", because it leaves a small opening for other options.  
I also noticed that East Kent have said "some breeds may jog along on commercial crap but your`s will not", which at least gives some other dog owners a bit more options.




Click to expand...

Thanks FL, someone else who also agrees their comments were slightly harsh  I have never said I am against a raw meat diet....in fact he's going back on one!  Natural Instinct food is being delivered today and also their warehouse is only a few miles from me so I can pop there any time for a chat, even take him there to see whats best for him. 

Also ordered a sample bag from Eden of a dry food version of raw (well thats what it reads like anyway) so will just see how he goes.

Will keep everyone posted on his poo situation....he would be highly embarassed if he knew I was saying that


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## RCP Equestrian (25 January 2013)

toffeeyummy said:



			This is pretty unbelievable! I can't understand how a leading pet food company is producing a food that is directly linked to a dogs stomach cancer?! Has anyone challenged pedigree over this? I certainly will be in touch. There are thousands of dogs on this food (including the 250 dogs at their research centre). Are they all deemed to become ill??
(sorry for the hijack op)
		
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Don't worry!  think more people need to be aware of it to be honest as it is a household brand! 

Out of interest....(it might just spark another heated debate) but are there any dry food makes out there that are ok to feed dogs? For the likes of people who wouldn't want to feed a raw meat diet? Just a general question....?


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## RCP Equestrian (25 January 2013)

RutlandH2O said:



			OP, has your pup had loose stools since the day you acquired him, regardless of his diet? If so, it might be a good idea to have his stool analysed for a few other things in addition to worms...things like the protozoan diseases giardia and coccidiosis. I believe another poster suggested he be checked for salmonella and campylobacter infections. You mentioned that his breeder had quite a few dogs and pups. Perhaps a call to the breeder and a description of your pup's symptoms and a question as to the condition of her pups might be in order.

Good luck with whatever diet you decide to prepare for your dogs.
		
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They were ok when I got him but after 2 wks I started adding the dry food after him not eating the raw very well. As all 4 dogs lived together its hard to know "whos poo is who"  apart from obviously the size difference of the Chi's and the Husky! LOL

Now he is going back on a raw diet I will give it a couple of weeks or so to sort his system out and if things haven't improved in that department I will definitely have him checked out, but at the moment I think it is definitely down to the food he is on at the moment


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## MurphysMinder (25 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Don't worry!  think more people need to be aware of it to be honest as it is a household brand! 

Out of interest....(it might just spark another heated debate) but are there any dry food makes out there that are ok to feed dogs? For the likes of people who wouldn't want to feed a raw meat diet? Just a general question....?
		
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Quite a few of the decent complete feeds have already been mentioned on this thread, Orjen, Fish4dogs, Taste of the Wild, and at a slightly lower price SKinners F & T Duck & Rice.  Have a look at the petforums link that is on this thread, you want those in green.


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## twisteddiamond (25 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			He is a very high content of Czech Wolf (his mam being 3/4 czech & 1/4 husky his dad was a full czech wolf) so I don't need a license for him and also don't need you to tell me about it as I am well aware of this! 

QUOTE]

anything closer than an F3 cross needs a license, As of 2008 DEFRA have confirmed that any dog 3 or more generations removed from pure wolf now no longer comes under the Dangerous Wild Animals act and therefore no longer needs a special licence to keep.
		
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## CorvusCorax (25 January 2013)

Oh do bog off, TD


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## twisteddiamond (25 January 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Oh do bog off, TD   

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well i shall as i have been through every page of this thread and there are no pics of the puppy??


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## EAST KENT (25 January 2013)

PMSL.."thread killing since 2006" now THAT is really funny!


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## {97702} (25 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Very clever....no swearing and I said it with a smile   

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Yes I thought you would come back with some "witty" comment...allow me to introduce you to the word unprofessional, I am sure it is one you will become very well acquainted with as you try to advance your business, although of course it already applies


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## twisteddiamond (25 January 2013)

EAST KENT said:



			PMSL.."thread killing since 2006" now THAT is really funny!

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well at least i made someone happy today lol


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## Nikki J (26 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			I have a 14wk old Czech Wolf puppy. I currently have him on Pedigree hard food to see how he goes but I've actually tried everything! He was brought up on a raw meat diet which I continued for a week amd gradually weaned him off it as I couldnt bare the smell any longer! Every other good I've tried his poo is really runny, he has been wormed recently too. Just wondered if anyone has any suggestions? Help would be appreciated 

Click to expand...

I see this thread is very long, but I am jumping in right at the start to say a big hello to you!  For a short time, we fostered an F1 wolf cross whose father was a pure CWD, and mum was a wolf.  I am a huge fan of CWD's and would love to have one, one day.  Currently, we have 2 wolfie-type dogs, one a registered utonagan, the other a low-content wolfdog.  I am crazy about them both.

I don't know how this thread pans out, as I have only just joined the H & H forum, but my advice to you would be to absolutely ONLY feed raw.  Just live with the smell - put a peg on your nose or something, and just think about the little guy and not your finer feelings!  You will soon get used to the smell - raw green tripe, which absolutely reeks, is the very best food you can feed any dog, but if you have a sensitive stomach start off on "ordinary", less smelly meats.  Raw feeding is much cheaper than a good quality kibble by the way.  Google Berriewoods, or DAF, or Landywoods, or Albion, they all have websites and are cheap and very good.  I am sure there will a lot of advice on here about the BARF diet (Biologically Appropriate Raw Food, or Bones & Raw Food), but you can do no worse than buy the Billinghurst books "Grow your Puppy on Bones" I think it is called, and I can't remember what the other one is called, but if you google BARF Billinghurst you will get up loads of links.  You should be able to buy the books second hand on Amazon.

I'm off now to wade my way through the rest of this thread!


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## Nikki J (26 January 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Wow, if I was a breeder who had weaned a puppy onto raw I'd be annoyed that he'd been switched onto Pedigree.

Raw may smell a but but it is infinitely better than Pedigree! Think of your dog's welfare rather than your nose. The runny poos should be telling you something - and you've tried 'everything'? How many times have you changed his food at 14 weeks?

It's a dog bred to look like a wolf, with possibly some wolf DNA, not an actual wolf by the way, otherwise you'd need a license to keep it 

Suggest you get yourself to a good training class or locate someone knowledgeable about dogs of this breed, you may need a little experienced guidance 

Click to expand...

No, a Czech Wolfdog is a breed that was created from crossing Carpathian wolf with GSD.  A pedigree czech wolfdog - and there are very many around now that have been mixed with Saarloos, Alaskan Malamutes, Siberian Huskies, or Northern Inuits and Utonagans - is probably around 20% wolf.  When you say it is a dog bred to look like a wolf, I think you are probably getting confused with Northern Inuits and Utonagans.  You do not need a licence to keep a wolf cross, provided it is an F3 or lower.  This is very misleading, because the "F'ness" bears no correlation with the amount of wolf in each particular generation.  We fostered an F1 wolfcross - his mother was a wolf, his father was a pedigree Czech Wolfdog - but he was a far higher content wolf than, say, a pup whose mother was a wolf and his father a labrador.  But he would still have been an F1.  As it happened, we had what was virtually a pure wolf sleeping in our bedroom, and he was an amazing little guy who was full of fun and love and mischief, and who adored our utonagan and followed him round like a little shadow.

I've gone off the thread here, but I had to put you straight on the wolf content of the CWD!


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## Nikki J (26 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Currently checking out the Fish4Dogs website now which is a great help  

Maybe I will have to buy a peg for my nose and deal with the raw meat 

It would be nice to have them all on the same food, or even him and the Husky at least and my other two on the same. 

The Chihuhua does not approve of the raw meat either! 

Click to expand...

My daughter's chihuahuas all ADORE raw!  You need to persist with them, because they can be fussy, spoiled little beggars, but no dog will let itself starve.  Just keep putting the food down - if they don't eat it, up it comes, back in the fridge, until the next attempt.

A word of advice with little ones - they probably won't eat it if it is straight from the fridge, might be better to let it come up to room temperature.  Same with raw meaty bones - chi's especially like raw chicken wings, keeps them quiet for hours and hours!


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## Nikki J (26 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Hmm possibly....I'm new to the raw thing so I just assumed it was all like that and didn't enjoy feed times at all! 

Haven't had a chance yet as I'm sneaking on between work  but I will certainly have a read through it all. 

When I was feeding him on the raw meat he was very distracted eating it and just kept picking and then trying to pinch the other dogs food! Which is why I switched him too as now (excuse the pun) wolfs it down!  but it just doesnt come out the other end as well as it goes in....if you know what I mean!
		
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My old F4 wolfcross refused to eat raw when we first put him from kibble onto a natural diet.  It took nearly a week of starvation before he ate - but rather than starve to death, eventually he tucked in, and never looked back.


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## CorvusCorax (26 January 2013)

Nikki J said:



			No, a Czech Wolfdog is a breed that was created from crossing Carpathian wolf with GSD.  A pedigree czech wolfdog - and there are very many around now that have been mixed with Saarloos, Alaskan Malamutes, Siberian Huskies, or Northern Inuits and Utonagans - is probably around 20% wolf.  When you say it is a dog bred to look like a wolf, I think you are probably getting confused with Northern Inuits and Utonagans.  You do not need a licence to keep a wolf cross, provided it is an F3 or lower.  This is very misleading, because the "F'ness" bears no correlation with the amount of wolf in each particular generation.  We fostered an F1 wolfcross - his mother was a wolf, his father was a pedigree Czech Wolfdog - but he was a far higher content wolf than, say, a pup whose mother was a wolf and his father a labrador.  But he would still have been an F1.  As it happened, we had what was virtually a pure wolf sleeping in our bedroom, and he was an amazing little guy who was full of fun and love and mischief, and who adored our utonagan and followed him round like a little shadow.

I've gone off the thread here, but I had to put you straight on the wolf content of the CWD!
		
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No need  it still isn't a 'wolf' as the title of this thread suggests. 
I have issue with x-breeding wolves and huskies with GSDs, they're completely different types of animal, the 'best of both' is a bit of a fallacy IMO. Different drives, different motivation, different purposes.
I realise the Czech wolfdog was bred initially experimentally as a patrol dog but with the other 'breeds' - I would love to see more of them working.
GSDs have suffered because of breeding for 'looks' rather than health and working ability and I hate to see them being used to breed more dogs, being bred for their 'looks'.

Breed GSDs with Belgians, Dutchies etc for a good working dog, with which they share similar characteristics, but breeding them to a completely different type of dog, I don't agree with, sorry. JMO though.
I trust all these breeders are carrying out hip and elbow x-rays on their breeding stock


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## Cyrus (26 January 2013)

So basically a CWD is a cross breed?


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## PucciNPoni (26 January 2013)

I know this is going a bit off topic but I thought that breeding a wolf and a dog resulted in a non viable offspring (ie sterile) and a vet I work with said she'd recently read an article that someone trying to find a crossing to a dog with a wolf found that the closest thing they could find was......wait for it......









..... a POODLE!



Imagine the new designer mutts - will they be WOODLE?  or POLF?


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## baggyb (26 January 2013)

God, I can't believe the vitriol (sp) on this thread - poor girl only asked for advice.  As for all the talk about breeders dictating what people feed their dogs on......I would have thought that when they sold the puppies they lost all control (fair enough if people go back to them for advice) but they have no right to impose anything if they are selling a dog


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## Nikki J (26 January 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			No need  it still isn't a 'wolf' as the title of this thread suggests. 
I have issue with x-breeding wolves and huskies with GSDs, they're completely different types of animal, the 'best of both' is a bit of a fallacy IMO. Different drives, different motivation, different purposes.
I realise the Czech wolfdog was bred initially experimentally as a patrol dog but with the other 'breeds' - I would love to see more of them working.
GSDs have suffered because of breeding for 'looks' rather than health and working ability and I hate to see them being used to breed more dogs, being bred for their 'looks'.

Breed GSDs with Belgians, Dutchies etc for a good working dog, with which they share similar characteristics, but breeding them to a completely different type of dog, I don't agree with, sorry. JMO though.
I trust all these breeders are carrying out hip and elbow x-rays on their breeding stock 

Click to expand...

I completely agree with you about crossing wolves, huskies and malamutes with GSD's.  In my opinion it is not a good mix at all - the GSD has strong guarding propensities, whereas the wolf has anything but - and huskies and mals do not make good guard dogs, they are more likely to lick a burglar to death!  The breeder from whom we bought our first wolf cross some 14 years ago started off crossing wolf with GSD, but found the offspring to be too assertive - not aggressive, but assertive.  She then tried a mix with Alaskan Malamute, but found the offspring to be far too "malamutey" in that they could not be trusted at all off the lead ever, and the males in particular could be very aggressive with other males.  The best mix she found was wolf/mal/sibe, and that is what my old boy was ... and now, we have his son living with us as an amazing coincidence.

With the utonagan - which is a dog bred to look like a wolf, yes, there are health checks - hips, eyes, elbows, tests for VWB to name just those I can remember.  But I am sure, just as with pedigree breeds, there are some breeders who are unscrupulous and "just in it for the money".

The Czech Wolfdog is very aptly named IMO - it is a wolfdog, opposed to a dog - a dog that has been crossed with a wolf.  Personally, I cannot think of a better name to describe something that is part wolf, but mainly dog!


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## Nikki J (26 January 2013)

Cyrus said:



			So basically a CWD is a cross breed?
		
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Aren't all breeds?  All breeds originated from cross breeding.  You say it Cyrus as if it were something to be despised!!  Personally, I will never ever ever have another pedigree dog, unless I rescue one.  I have never had a healthy pedigree, and I have never had an unhealthy cross ... there will be hundreds, nay thousands, of people who can tell me exactly the opposite, but my 40 years experience of owning dogs is as I state above.

Give me a good mongrel like my boys any day!!


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## Nikki J (26 January 2013)

PucciNPoni said:



			I know this is going a bit off topic but I thought that breeding a wolf and a dog resulted in a non viable offspring (ie sterile) and a vet I work with said she'd recently read an article that someone trying to find a crossing to a dog with a wolf found that the closest thing they could find was......wait for it......











..... a POODLE!



Imagine the new designer mutts - will they be WOODLE?  or POLF?





Click to expand...

WHAT!!!  You are kidding me!!  I am sorry, but there is no qualified vet that would ever make such a ridiculous statement!!

Dogs ARE wolves - they are the direct descendent of the wolf, traceable via the mitochondrial DNA, back to 3 wolf bitches.  All dogs we know today are descended from 3 wolf bitches.  That is irrefutable.  However, over the tens of thousands of years of "wolf" being "dog", they have evolved into the thousands of breeds we know today, most of whom are far removed from those 3 wolf bitches in terms of dietary tolerance, behaviour and doggie language.

I am sorry, I don't wish to be rude about this vet, but clearly they are totally, totally ignorant of genetics and the origins of dogs!!


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## Cyrus (26 January 2013)

Not despised at all Nikki J plenty of cross breeds in my family just interested in finding out where the breed comes from as it just seems over the last few years all these wolf dogs have come on the scene


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## PucciNPoni (27 January 2013)

Nikki J said:



			WHAT!!!  You are kidding me!!  I am sorry, but there is no qualified vet that would ever make such a ridiculous statement!!

Dogs ARE wolves - they are the direct descendent of the wolf, traceable via the mitochondrial DNA, back to 3 wolf bitches.  All dogs we know today are descended from 3 wolf bitches.  That is irrefutable.  However, over the tens of thousands of years of "wolf" being "dog", they have evolved into the thousands of breeds we know today, most of whom are far removed from those 3 wolf bitches in terms of dietary tolerance, behaviour and doggie language.

I am sorry, I don't wish to be rude about this vet, but clearly they are totally, totally ignorant of genetics and the origins of dogs!!
		
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I didn't say the VET said this - I said the vet said she'd read an ARTICLE someone else wrote.  

It was certainly my layman's belief (and don't forget that vets don't necessarilly specialise in genetics so it MIGHT have been her understanding as well, but since I'm not her I couldn't really say what her belief was - this was a passing comment...) that wolves and dogs ARE DIFFERENT SPECIES.  Where did donkeys come from - did they evolve from horses?  Or were they completely different species from the start?

How on earth did my comment, which was more or less passed for humor get your knickers in such a knot?!


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## Nikki J (27 January 2013)

Cyrus said:



			Not despised at all Nikki J plenty of cross breeds in my family just interested in finding out where the breed comes from as it just seems over the last few years all these wolf dogs have come on the scene
		
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O good!  It was not meant as a criticism, Cyrus, just interested to find out your feelings re crossbreeds ... now I know!

Where do all these wolfdogs come from?  Well, many of them probably have no recent wolf in them at all, and are just mixes of malamutes and huskies passed off as "wolf crosses".  It was a bandwagon that many unscrupulous breeders jumped onto after Dances with Wolves and Snow Dogs - people saw these films and thought "I want one of those".  It has been very detrimental to the Alaskan Malamute and the Siberian Husky, both of whom are not your average pet dog, but need loads of exercise, and very understanding owners if they are planning on having them as pets, not working them in harness.

That said, both the Utonagan and the Northern Inuit (the same lines, from the same original source, but there was a split a few years back - long story, which I won't bore you with!) were created from a mix of wolf, mal and husky in the main, with a smattering of GSD from the first dogs.  A lady called Edwina (Eddie) Harrison in the late 80's started to breed wolf crosses, reportedly she had in her barn a brother and sister pair of wolves called Romulus and Remus.  I say reportedly, as I never saw these wolves, they were kept hidden in a barn, but a friend of mine whose husband's work is in wildlife conservation, says she saw these wolves in the barn one day when the door blew open - apparently Eddie quickly shut the door, but not before my friend had seen what were very definitely wolves.  There was a court case in the 90's when a so-called friend of Eddie's insisted on advertising her pups as wolf crosses in the local press, there was a hoo haa, a court case, and the result of this was that it became illegal to own a dog in the UK with a higher wolf content in it than 1%!!  This of course is laughable, because all dogs, as direct descendants of the wolf, have more wolf content than that, but setting that aside Eddie's business plummeted, she ended up financially destitute, she became over-dogged, the RSPCA were involved, etc. etc.  We ended up buying a pup off her - a male - in 1993, who was an F4 and a magnificent boy.  He sired 2 litters, and we have a boy from his second litter living with us now, whom we rescued 2 years ago.

That is the story of Edwina Harrison very, very briefly - there is far far more to it than that, but I don't want to bore everyone!

Now, with the ban lifted on owning wolfdogs unless they are F2 or F1's, it is possible to buy a magnificent Czech wolfdog or Saarloos wolfdog legally.  To my knowledge, there are 2 breeders of CWDs, one in Kent, one in Devon.  I don't know personally the lady in Devon, but the Kent CWDs are magnificent dogs.  Sadly, there are an awful lot of crosses out there - with Saarloos being crossed with NI's and Utonagans, and doubtless CWD's as well - which although I have no problem with crossbreeds and actively seek them out and prefer them, I am not convinced that you are bringing any further to the party by mixing what are already beautiful wolf crosses.  That's just my opinion, others may think differently.

Hope this helps


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## Nikki J (27 January 2013)

PucciNPoni said:



			I didn't say the VET said this - I said the vet said she'd read an ARTICLE someone else wrote.  

It was certainly my layman's belief (and don't forget that vets don't necessarilly specialise in genetics so it MIGHT have been her understanding as well, but since I'm not her I couldn't really say what her belief was - this was a passing comment...) that wolves and dogs ARE DIFFERENT SPECIES.  Where did donkeys come from - did they evolve from horses?  Or were they completely different species from the start?

How on earth did my comment, which was more or less passed for humor get your knickers in such a knot?!
		
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It DID get my knickers in a knot, didn't it!!  It is one of my pet hates - peeps who think that dogs did not evolve from wolves.  It is like saying that we, English people, are a different species from the Kalahari Bushmen, or the Aborigines, or the Maori.

Sorry I misunderstood re the vet - my mistake  My point is though that if a vet did believe this claptrap, then she is not a vet I would trust with my beloved boys, or even a hamster!

Regarding the donkey and the horse, they are separate species, but they are closely enough related to be able to breed, but the offspring will be infertile - F1's.  These of course are mules, mules are a cross between a horse and a donkey and are infertile.

The dog and the wolf are not separate species, the young they produce are fertile, they can reproduce, and therefore it is really inaccurate to describe wolfdogs as F1's, F2's etc., or hybrids.  The correct terminology for them is wolfdog, or wolf cross.

Sorry about the knotty knickers!!


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## Jools1234 (27 January 2013)

Nikki J said:



			Dogs ARE wolves
		
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my understanding is that they are NOT wolves but ARE decendents of/from wolves


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## Nikki J (27 January 2013)

Jools1234 said:



			my understanding is that they are NOT wolves but ARE decendents of/from wolves
		
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I meant in genetic terms - dogs share 99.2% DNA with wolves.  The tiny fraction of a percentage difference is behavioural.

Having lived with an F1 wolf, I can confirm they are indeed very different from your average labrador in many different ways - but it still very evident to see in your average labrador his wolf ancestry, in any dog, even toys like chihuahuas!


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## Wolf (27 January 2013)

Is there a reason why you bought a cross breed and not a pure Czech Wolfdog. The breeder should of discused your feeding plan with you before you bought the dog in more detail.

If its not a pure Czechoslovakian Wolfdog you should not be calling it one.
Its cheaper for the breeder to cross breed and make money from those who do not do their research before buying a dog.

Did you get the dog from a breeder in Devon?


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## EAST KENT (27 January 2013)

baggyb said:



			God, I can't believe the vitriol (sp) on this thread - poor girl only asked for advice.  As for all the talk about breeders dictating what people feed their dogs on......I would have thought that when they sold the puppies they lost all control (fair enough if people go back to them for advice) but they have no right to impose anything if they are selling a dog
		
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Well, this thread just confirms to me that good breeders indeed do have the right to ask the puppy is reared correctly for the breed.People such as you get "the order of the door",thankyou very much.Good breeders put years of work and knowledge into their breeding,and because of their acquired superior knowledge do expect the new owners to think enough of their puppy to listen ..and do.
   Those who disagree please visit PreLoved for your next puppy,your sort of breeder resides therein.


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## Jesstickle (27 January 2013)

Nikki J said:



			It DID get my knickers in a knot, didn't it!!  It is one of my pet hates - peeps who think that dogs did not evolve from wolves.  It is like saying that we, English people, are a different species from the Kalahari Bushmen, or the Aborigines, or the Maori.

Sorry I misunderstood re the vet - my mistake  My point is though that if a vet did believe this claptrap, then she is not a vet I would trust with my beloved boys, or even a hamster!

Regarding the donkey and the horse, they are separate species, but they are closely enough related to be able to breed, but the offspring will be infertile - F1's.  These of course are mules, mules are a cross between a horse and a donkey and are infertile.

The dog and the wolf are not separate species, the young they produce are fertile, they can reproduce, and therefore it is really inaccurate to describe wolfdogs as F1's, F2's etc., or hybrids.  The correct terminology for them is wolfdog, or wolf cross.

Sorry about the knotty knickers!! 

Click to expand...

Dogs and wolves are part of the same subspecies. That is to say they are less different than two animals from different species and more similar than two animals of different breeds. Dingos are too. So they aren't wolves and they are.

Dogs are different from wolves in more than behaviour though. Size, brain size etc are different as well as behaviour and social behaviour. 

I don't have black skin and some  humans do. You can be the same species and have obvious physical differences and you can certainly be part of the same sub species and be really _ quite _ different. 

Does anyone have a dingo cross? Are they allowed? No idea!


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## Dobiegirl (27 January 2013)

EAST KENT said:



			Well, this thread just confirms to me that good breeders indeed do have the right to ask the puppy is reared correctly for the breed.People such as you get "the order of the door",thankyou very much.Good breeders put years of work and knowledge into their breeding,and because of their acquired superior knowledge do expect the new owners to think enough of their puppy to listen ..and do.
   Those who disagree please visit PreLoved for your next puppy,your sort of breeder resides therein.

Click to expand...

Good post.


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## Wolf (27 January 2013)

Czech Wolfdog breeders in Europe are reluctant to sell dogs to people in the U.K because of the breeders here cross breeding them for easy money.

Each prospective new puppy owner should be quized as to why they would make a good owner.

Each breeder needs to know that the pup has the right owner to raise the animal and not just sell to whoever pays the money first.

Glad to hear you are giving Raw another try. 

Were you given much information about the breed from the breeder?

I only feed my dogs Raw but do know of a good food for those not wanting to feed Raw.......Millies Wolfheart is available online.


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## Wolf (27 January 2013)

Nikki J said:



			O good!  It was not meant as a criticism, Cyrus, just interested to find out your feelings re crossbreeds ... now I know!

Where do all these wolfdogs come from?  Well, many of them probably have no recent wolf in them at all, and are just mixes of malamutes and huskies passed off as "wolf crosses".  It was a bandwagon that many unscrupulous breeders jumped onto after Dances with Wolves and Snow Dogs - people saw these films and thought "I want one of those".  It has been very detrimental to the Alaskan Malamute and the Siberian Husky, both of whom are not your average pet dog, but need loads of exercise, and very understanding owners if they are planning on having them as pets, not working them in harness.

That said, both the Utonagan and the Northern Inuit (the same lines, from the same original source, but there was a split a few years back - long story, which I won't bore you with!) were created from a mix of wolf, mal and husky in the main, with a smattering of GSD from the first dogs.  A lady called Edwina (Eddie) Harrison in the late 80's started to breed wolf crosses, reportedly she had in her barn a brother and sister pair of wolves called Romulus and Remus.  I say reportedly, as I never saw these wolves, they were kept hidden in a barn, but a friend of mine whose husband's work is in wildlife conservation, says she saw these wolves in the barn one day when the door blew open - apparently Eddie quickly shut the door, but not before my friend had seen what were very definitely wolves.  There was a court case in the 90's when a so-called friend of Eddie's insisted on advertising her pups as wolf crosses in the local press, there was a hoo haa, a court case, and the result of this was that it became illegal to own a dog in the UK with a higher wolf content in it than 1%!!  This of course is laughable, because all dogs, as direct descendants of the wolf, have more wolf content than that, but setting that aside Eddie's business plummeted, she ended up financially destitute, she became over-dogged, the RSPCA were involved, etc. etc.  We ended up buying a pup off her - a male - in 1993, who was an F4 and a magnificent boy.  He sired 2 litters, and we have a boy from his second litter living with us now, whom we rescued 2 years ago.

That is the story of Edwina Harrison very, very briefly - there is far far more to it than that, but I don't want to bore everyone!

Now, with the ban lifted on owning wolfdogs unless they are F2 or F1's, it is possible to buy a magnificent Czech wolfdog or Saarloos wolfdog legally.  To my knowledge, there are 2 breeders of CWDs, one in Kent, one in Devon.  I don't know personally the lady in Devon, but the Kent CWDs are magnificent dogs.  Sadly, there are an awful lot of crosses out there - with Saarloos being crossed with NI's and Utonagans, and doubtless CWD's as well - which although I have no problem with crossbreeds and actively seek them out and prefer them, I am not convinced that you are bringing any further to the party by mixing what are already beautiful wolf crosses.  That's just my opinion, others may think differently.

Hope this helps 

Click to expand...

Good post


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## Lady La La (28 January 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			No need  it still isn't a 'wolf' as the title of this thread suggests. 
I have issue with x-breeding wolves and huskies with GSDs, they're completely different types of animal, the 'best of both' is a bit of a fallacy IMO. Different drives, different motivation, different purposes.
I realise the Czech wolfdog was bred initially experimentally as a patrol dog but with the other 'breeds' - I would love to see more of them working.
GSDs have suffered because of breeding for 'looks' rather than health and working ability and I hate to see them being used to breed more dogs, being bred for their 'looks'.

Breed GSDs with Belgians, Dutchies etc for a good working dog, with which they share similar characteristics, but breeding them to a completely different type of dog, I don't agree with, sorry. JMO though.
I trust all these breeders are carrying out hip and elbow x-rays on their breeding stock 

Click to expand...

Tyson agrees with all of the above. He has such trouble with his hips and his tummy, and he's only 3


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## RCP Equestrian (29 January 2013)

Wolf said:



			Is there a reason why you bought a cross breed and not a pure Czech Wolfdog. The breeder should of discused your feeding plan with you before you bought the dog in more detail.

If its not a pure Czechoslovakian Wolfdog you should not be calling it one.
Its cheaper for the breeder to cross breed and make money from those who do not do their research before buying a dog.

Did you get the dog from a breeder in Devon?
		
Click to expand...

No it was an un expected litter so she didn't intentionally breed them. I used to live with a lady that had a Canadian Wolf x GSD and fell in love with him so just wanted something similar. 

He's the best dog I've ever had, so loyal, loving and never leaves my side. An angel to train and very obidient! Love him  I would have a million of them haha. 

And again I apologise about missing off the wolfDOG bit in my post....means a lot to some people lol


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## CorvusCorax (29 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			No it was an un expected litter so she didn't intentionally breed them.
		
Click to expand...

That'll happen, I suppose, when they have 'so many' dogs running around, especially if entire.


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## RCP Equestrian (29 January 2013)

Update on the "poo" situation of my Wolfdog pup....

Been on Natural Instinct since Friday, obviously mixed with the dreaded Pedigree at first but now almost completely off it and.....they're 100% solid! Woohoo! All dogs are now on it, Chi and Chi x LOVE it and also the once fussy Husky wolfs it down too (excuse the pun) 

So thank you to everyone who gave brilliant advice, have a happier group of doggies and they're all on raw meat. 

I see this has been a very interesting post in many ways....glad to be entertainment for you all!!


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## CorvusCorax (29 January 2013)

Good news  it's so much nicer to clean up after raw doggies


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## RCP Equestrian (29 January 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Good news  it's so much nicer to clean up after raw doggies 

Click to expand...

Indeed! And I can now catch the Husky when in comes to feed times as she loves it so much!


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## Nikki J (29 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Update on the "poo" situation of my Wolfdog pup....

Been on Natural Instinct since Friday, obviously mixed with the dreaded Pedigree at first but now almost completely off it and.....they're 100% solid! Woohoo! All dogs are now on it, Chi and Chi x LOVE it and also the once fussy Husky wolfs it down too (excuse the pun) 

So thank you to everyone who gave brilliant advice, have a happier group of doggies and they're all on raw meat. 

I see this has been a very interesting post in many ways....glad to be entertainment for you all!! 

Click to expand...


Natural instinct is just the best - but it is far too expensive to feed my 2 giants on.  My daughter feeds her 2 chihuahuas on it, and they thrive on it.

You will never regret going native - it is the best food for any dog, well done you!


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## Nikki J (29 January 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Good news  it's so much nicer to clean up after raw doggies 

Click to expand...

Isn't it just!  No more horrible soft, smellie, greasy turds which are so difficult to stick and flick, or pick up.


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## RCP Equestrian (29 January 2013)

Nikki J said:



			Natural instinct is just the best - but it is far too expensive to feed my 2 giants on.  My daughter feeds her 2 chihuahuas on it, and they thrive on it.

You will never regret going native - it is the best food for any dog, well done you!
		
Click to expand...

I know it is more but as long as they're all healthy and looking amazing then a little extra wont do me any harm, I will just have to go on to smart price instead of Heinz  but, the Natural Instinct warehouse is only a few miles away in Camberley so that will save me the £6.50 delivery too...perfect


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## CorvusCorax (29 January 2013)

Just as an aside, I was feeding Frolic out of my pockets as a training treat a few weeks ago and OH MY WORD you do not want to think about the colour and the consistency of what that produced!!!


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## Embo (29 January 2013)

Glad you switched to RAW. Sooo much better - I wish more vets would recommend it. I've not read the entire thread but another website to try is barfpetfoods.co.uk


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## RCP Equestrian (29 January 2013)

Embo said:



			Glad you switched to RAW. Sooo much better - I wish more vets would recommend it. I've not read the entire thread but another website to try is barfpetfoods.co.uk
		
Click to expand...

It is much better and I'm glad I managed to find a way of feeding it where the dogs love it and I'm more than happy serving it!  thanks for that, still looking at other foods too just to expand my knowledge on it all really!


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## RCP Equestrian (29 January 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Just as an aside, I was feeding Frolic out of my pockets as a training treat a few weeks ago and OH MY WORD you do not want to think about the colour and the consistency of what that produced!!!
		
Click to expand...

Glad I finished my dinner before I read this!  LOL I can imagine, if they were anything like how my puupies were....YUK. Its crazy to think they are allowed to sell these types of food if they are or can be potentially dangerous to feed dogs!?

Glad my lot are on good proper food and I know exactly each ingredient  

Happy days


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## misterjinglejay (29 January 2013)

Glad your pup poops are much better, a happy pack all round by the sound of it!


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## CorvusCorax (29 January 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Glad I finished my dinner before I read this!  LOL I can imagine, if they were anything like how my puupies were....YUK. Its crazy to think they are allowed to sell these types of food if they are or can be potentially dangerous to feed dogs!?
		
Click to expand...

It's crazy, the food is marketed as juicy, moist and rich in beef when the actual meat continent is negligible!! Almost all grains.
I don't feel too guilty, it was just one small bag fed in very small amounts over about three weeks from my pockets, like an occasional McDonalds is how I am rationalising it!!! He is on chicken and tripe the rest of the time.


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## Dobiegirl (29 January 2013)

Ive said this before and its worth repeating as it kind of ties in with the title of this thread,. When we first bought our Lancashire Heeler puppy we took her to the vet for a check up and the vet asked what we were feeding her, we said raw and the vet said why she is not a wolf.

We changed vets after that and the new vet is very supportive of raw.


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## RCP Equestrian (1 February 2013)

Update on my puppy! Now been on Natural Instinct for a week and is completely weaned off the Pedigree. Not only have I seen a massive change in his "business" (which is now happy poo ) I have seen a big change in his behaviour, not that he has ever been naughty or difficult, he is the best puppy I've ever had training and loyalty wise, but he is much calmer and a lot more chilled. The Husky however, has had the most dramatic change, used to be very difficult to catch to put back to bed (as they live in a kennel outside) and used to take every opportunity to run away, now is happy to potter around with you, never going too far and always going back to bed....actually can't believe how much their diet can effect them! Definitely opened my eyes now and so pleased I asked the question on here...it was even worth the criticism! 

Here's a pic of him last night, waiting patiently for is tea 

http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/539061_10151274142053424_19256567_n.jpg


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## Arizahn (1 February 2013)

He is very handsome. Welcome back to proper food, op...my five are also fed raw. I sometimes boil up a batch of liver and other squooshy bits and freeze it so as to have something that looks less "scary" to feed them in front of visitors, lol! Not everyone can handle seeing them ripping up a carcass, although the gasman arrived to check the boiler during breakfast today, and he just thought it was amazing to see.


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## Nikki J (2 February 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Update on my puppy! Now been on Natural Instinct for a week and is completely weaned off the Pedigree. Not only have I seen a massive change in his "business" (which is now happy poo ) I have seen a big change in his behaviour, not that he has ever been naughty or difficult, he is the best puppy I've ever had training and loyalty wise, but he is much calmer and a lot more chilled. The Husky however, has had the most dramatic change, used to be very difficult to catch to put back to bed (as they live in a kennel outside) and used to take every opportunity to run away, now is happy to potter around with you, never going too far and always going back to bed....actually can't believe how much their diet can effect them! Definitely opened my eyes now and so pleased I asked the question on here...it was even worth the criticism! 

Here's a pic of him last night, waiting patiently for is tea 

http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/539061_10151274142053424_19256567_n.jpg

Click to expand...

This is just amazing news - I am so happy for you!  I will now click on your picture, having failed to notice that before!


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## toffeeyummy (2 February 2013)

I'm glad you've found what works for you op and what a handsome boy 
I have to say though that mine are still on pedigree I've never seen them look so well. They are slim, fit, shiny, active, in dact a picture of health. Their poops are good consistency and easy to pick up with no major smells. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree


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## EAST KENT (2 February 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Update on my puppy! Now been on Natural Instinct for a week and is completely weaned off the Pedigree. Not only have I seen a massive change in his "business" (which is now happy poo ) I have seen a big change in his behaviour, not that he has ever been naughty or difficult, he is the best puppy I've ever had training and loyalty wise, but he is much calmer and a lot more chilled. The Husky however, has had the most dramatic change, used to be very difficult to catch to put back to bed (as they live in a kennel outside) and used to take every opportunity to run away, now is happy to potter around with you, never going too far and always going back to bed....actually can't believe how much their diet can effect them! Definitely opened my eyes now and so pleased I asked the question on here...it was even worth the criticism! 

Here's a pic of him last night, waiting patiently for is tea 

http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/539061_10151274142053424_19256567_n.jpg

Click to expand...

 At last you listened,and now you see why we were so adament..job done..Phew!


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## piebaldsparkle (2 February 2013)

toffeeyummy said:



			I'm glad you've found what works for you op and what a handsome boy 
I have to say though that mine are still on pedigree I've never seen them look so well. They are slim, fit, shiny, active, in dact a picture of health. Their poops are good consistency and easy to pick up with no major smells. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree 

Click to expand...

Be as smug as you like, but a google search will show you are giving your dog a nutritionally poor diet.  



http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_...erpage=12&sort=8&stype=&limit=&cat=7&ppuser=0

http://www.whichdogfood.co.uk/product-search.php?producer=16

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/255727-updated-dry-dog-food-index-2.html

Carry on feeding your dogs cheap rubbish and enjoy them while you have them


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## NeverSayNever (2 February 2013)

so pleased for you , and your dogs


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## CorvusCorax (2 February 2013)

piebaldsparkle said:



			Be as smug as you like, but a google search will show you are giving your dog a nutritionally poor diet.  



http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_...erpage=12&sort=8&stype=&limit=&cat=7&ppuser=0

http://www.whichdogfood.co.uk/product-search.php?producer=16

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/255727-updated-dry-dog-food-index-2.html

Carry on feeding your dogs cheap rubbish and enjoy them while you have them 

Click to expand...

This last few weeks, between one thing and another, I have been subsisting on Dominos, Subway, Batchelors pasta & sauce and Chinese takeaways. I've been skipping breakfast too. I eat every last bit. I am eight and a half stone wet through and my skin is lovely and clear. Is it good for me long-term? Do I have to answer that???


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## NeverSayNever (3 February 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			This last few weeks, between one thing and another, I have been subsisting on Dominos, Subway, Batchelors pasta & sauce and Chinese takeaways. I've been skipping breakfast too. I eat every last bit. I am eight and a half stone wet through and my skin is lovely and clear. Is it good for me long-term? Do I have to answer that???
		
Click to expand...

ooh but it sounds mighty tasty


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## EAST KENT (3 February 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			This last few weeks, between one thing and another, I have been subsisting on Dominos, Subway, Batchelors pasta & sauce and Chinese takeaways. I've been skipping breakfast too. I eat every last bit. I am eight and a half stone wet through and my skin is lovely and clear. Is it good for me long-term? Do I have to answer that???
		
Click to expand...

   You`ll get hot spots!!


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## Oberon (3 February 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Here's a pic of him last night, waiting patiently for is tea 

http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/539061_10151274142053424_19256567_n.jpg

Click to expand...



The adorable look reminds me of Salem when he was the same age.







Don't fall for it...they're all evil


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## MrPotts (3 February 2013)

Smiggy - from tests, there is as much salmonella found in biscuit food as in raw.

Czechoslovakian wolfdogs have notoriously sensitive tums so my advice if you don't want to feed 'smelly' raw


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## MrPotts (3 February 2013)

... foods, then try Pro plan or fish4dogs.


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## blackcob (3 February 2013)

Pro Plan original chicken and rice ingredients:

Chicken (20%), wheat, maize, dehydrated poultry protein, maize gluten, rice (7%), animal fat, beet pulp, digest, calcium phosphate, dried egg, sodium chloride, fish oil, potassium chloride, minerals. 

Only a little better than Pedigree et al and £50 for 14kg.


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## piebaldsparkle (3 February 2013)

blackcob said:



			Pro Plan original chicken and rice ingredients:

Chicken (20%), wheat, maize, dehydrated poultry protein, maize gluten, rice (7%), animal fat, beet pulp, digest, calcium phosphate, dried egg, sodium chloride, fish oil, potassium chloride, minerals. 

Only a little better than Pedigree et al and £50 for 14kg. 

Click to expand...

Blimey at that price you could almost buy Orijen which has no grain at all!


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## Cinnamontoast (3 February 2013)

toffeeyummy said:



			I'm glad you've found what works for you op and what a handsome boy 
I have to say though that mine are still on pedigree I've never seen them look so well. They are slim, fit, shiny, active, in dact a picture of health. Their poops are good consistency and easy to pick up with no major smells. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree 

Click to expand...


I posted the ingredients for you, I believe. I'm not being patronising, but did you read them and see that BHA/BHT are in there? Cancer causing ingredients? The dog may look 'shiny' but that's because there's oil in there. 



piebaldsparkle said:



			Be as smug as you like, but a google search will show you are giving your dog a nutritionally poor diet.  



http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_...erpage=12&sort=8&stype=&limit=&cat=7&ppuser=0

http://www.whichdogfood.co.uk/product-search.php?producer=16

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/255727-updated-dry-dog-food-index-2.html

Carry on feeding your dogs cheap rubbish and enjoy them while you have them 

Click to expand...

Agree.


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## MrPotts (3 February 2013)

The pro plan I use has no grain at all, which one did you find the ingredients list from?


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## MrPotts (3 February 2013)

Can't edit on my phone but just seen that it's the original chicken and rice ..


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## blackcob (3 February 2013)

As stated the adult original chicken with rice.  None of the products on the website are grain free. 

Applaws is £4.99 more and totally grain free with 75% meat and as above, not far off Orijen prices at £60/13.5kg. I do rate Fish4Dogs but was disappointed with their recent formulation change (pea flour now accounts for 22%, it used to be just potato and fish).


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## piebaldsparkle (3 February 2013)

MrPotts said:



			The pro plan I use has no grain at all, which one did you find the ingredients list from?
		
Click to expand...

Really what do you feed as they all contain rice as far as I can see.


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## RCP Equestrian (4 February 2013)

Thanks guys. I do indeed have a happy bunch of dogs and very pleased I changed him back as well as the other dogs while they're all still young! Little dogs are on the Eden dry food and have the natural instinct as a treat every now and then and the big dogs are on the natural instinct and have bones once a week for their teeth. 

I'm a raw feeder now, took some persuading the other half but really he has no say in the matter (thank god!)


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## RCP Equestrian (4 February 2013)

Oberon said:



			The adorable look reminds me of Salem when he was the same age.







Don't fall for it...they're all evil 

Click to expand...

OMG they look so alike! Love that look they give you...but I agree, dont fall for it!


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## NeverSayNever (4 February 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Thanks guys. I do indeed have a happy bunch of dogs and very pleased I changed him back as well as the other dogs while they're all still young! Little dogs are on the Eden dry food and have the natural instinct as a treat every now and then and the big dogs are on the natural instinct and have bones once a week for their teeth. 

I'm a raw feeder now, took some persuading the other half but really he has no say in the matter (thank god!) 

Click to expand...

LIKE


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