# Letting nature take its course?



## Twiglet (26 March 2014)

Buzz had a visit from the vet today, who has been off for two weeks, and she's found a substantial deterioration in his jaw, which is in constant spasm.
He now has no chewing ability, so food is basically sucked in and 'gummed' before being swallowed. He can only open his mouth around 4cm. He's lost all condition on the left side of his head, and the cheek has sunk in.
Neither the cancer vets nor the practice vet have ever seen this sort of spasm as a result of cancer or radiotherapy, and can find no medical cause for it. 
The only treatment option at this stage is to have the jaw injected with methocarbamol (sp?) which is a muscle relaxant, and see if that can release any of the spasm. He's in pretty constant pain, which oral bute doesn't touch, but is relieved slightly with IV painkillers. His jugular has already collapsed as a result of catheters, so having to be careful with how injections are done. 
The methocarbomal treatment is twice a day, every day for five days, via a needle directly into his face, and the cost is likely to be in the high hundreds (the insurance ran out weeks ago).

I'm really not sure where to go from here. He's been fighting this thing for three months, which I know isn't that long in the grand scheme of things, but it's a very long time for a horse who loves eating, and hasn't been able to eat properly in that time. I always said I would keep fighting and treating him while he had a quality of life, but I don't know at which stage I have to consider what that quality is. 
At least one vet has said that as he can't eat, and is in pain, as far as they're concerned he should be put down, but the regular team (the cancer guys, and the practice vet) are still prepared to throw the kitchen sink at it in terms of treatment. I'm just not sure how long I can continue to consign a horse who has been so *******ing tough about the whole thing to yet more pain and horrendous treatments. 

If the muscle relaxant works or makes any difference, I'm considering another option -  a friend has offered the use of her field for him. It's got great grass, good shelter, and he'd have a companion. I'd have to find a groom who can stop by and check him in the mornings, and I'd try to get there myself 5-6 times a week (it's much further than the yard). I'd ask the vet to stop by weekly and inject painkillers, but otherwise he'd be on a diet of just grass. 
Previously I didn't want to consider it, as he just wasn't strong enough to live out, but now it's getting warmer, and the grass is improving, I'm wondering whether to let nature take its course, and see if it does a better job than everything else we've tried. 
The downside of it is that at the moment he has a team of really awesome, caring grooms and yard owner monitoring him on a near constant basis - they're going out after evening stables to top up his slop forage, and testing his bite and his weight. They have a good working relationship with the vet, and they really care about Buzz and how he is, which as far as I'm concerned is worth its weight in gold. 

I don't expect anyone to have an answer, but just wanted to get it all down and see if there's anything I haven't thought of. It's just breaking my heart to feel like I can't do anything to help him.


----------



## ihatework (26 March 2014)

I want to give you an incredibly big hug.
What a horrible journey you have been on with a horse you so clearly adore.
Maybe it is time to consider if you have reached the end of that journey.


----------



## mattydog (26 March 2014)

Sorry to have nothing helpful for you and your brave, brave boy. Heart breaking but if the vets want to carry on maybe you should give him a it longer. Tough decision. You are the best one to decide when enough is enough. He will let you know. 
But...if he can't chew how can he live out on a grass diet only? Sorry if I got hold of the wrong end of the stick with that one. x


----------



## PorkChop (26 March 2014)

Oh no, big hugs for you both, so sorry.

You will know in your heart when you feel enough is enough, a horrible situation to be in x


----------



## catembi (26 March 2014)

Oh no, how horrid for you both.  I really sympathise with you as I went thru 6 months of hell with Catembi when he had protein losing enteropathy.  It's so gutting to think that you might be winning, & then find out that you may not be.

I am so sorry for you.  It's so hard to know when to let go, especially when it's been a hard-fought battle.

T x


----------



## TarrSteps (26 March 2014)

How awful for you both.

Okay, I'll ask the tough questions. . . What is the goal here? At this point is there a reasonable chance he will return to a relatively normal, pain free life? What is the potential cure rate for the cancer and what more might that entail? Can he get adequate nutrition from grass alone at this stage? How recently has he lived out? Even though we think it's 'better' it's still an adjustment. And while we think of summer as a lovely time of year heat and flies are very hard on horses. 

Also, I love vets but they are scientists. They are hard wired and educated to solve problems. They are also supposed to do what the client wants or says they want. They are not, and should not be thought of, as spiritual advisors or ethics guides. I know what it's like to have vets invested and feel that somehow you owe them a certain decision, but at the end of the day they are hired guns. (As are trainers and grooms.) The ultimate responsibility is with the owner.

I know I'm supposed to tell you to keep going, that it's worth everything. I think very highly of your vet, although partly for her relatively 'agricultural' outlook. But if you are genuinely wavering, seeing B every day and knowing him well, don't deny your instincts because you feel you have to keep going, having done so much. And certainly don't let what you think other people might think impact on making the right decision for you and B.


----------



## PolarSkye (26 March 2014)

Twiglet said:



			Buzz had a visit from the vet today, who has been off for two weeks, and she's found a substantial deterioration in his jaw, which is in constant spasm.
He now has no chewing ability, so food is basically sucked in and 'gummed' before being swallowed. He can only open his mouth around 4cm. He's lost all condition on the left side of his head, and the cheek has sunk in.
Neither the cancer vets nor the practice vet have ever seen this sort of spasm as a result of cancer or radiotherapy, and can find no medical cause for it. 
The only treatment option at this stage is to have the jaw injected with methocarbamol (sp?) which is a muscle relaxant, and see if that can release any of the spasm. He's in pretty constant pain, which oral bute doesn't touch, but is relieved slightly with IV painkillers. His jugular has already collapsed as a result of catheters, so having to be careful with how injections are done. 
The methocarbomal treatment is twice a day, every day for five days, via a needle directly into his face, and the cost is likely to be in the high hundreds (the insurance ran out weeks ago).

I'm really not sure where to go from here. He's been fighting this thing for three months, which I know isn't that long in the grand scheme of things, but it's a very long time for a horse who loves eating, and hasn't been able to eat properly in that time. I always said I would keep fighting and treating him while he had a quality of life, but I don't know at which stage I have to consider what that quality is. 
At least one vet has said that as he can't eat, and is in pain, as far as they're concerned he should be put down, but the regular team (the cancer guys, and the practice vet) are still prepared to throw the kitchen sink at it in terms of treatment. I'm just not sure how long I can continue to consign a horse who has been so *******ing tough about the whole thing to yet more pain and horrendous treatments. 

If the muscle relaxant works or makes any difference, I'm considering another option -  a friend has offered the use of her field for him. It's got great grass, good shelter, and he'd have a companion. I'd have to find a groom who can stop by and check him in the mornings, and I'd try to get there myself 5-6 times a week (it's much further than the yard). I'd ask the vet to stop by weekly and inject painkillers, but otherwise he'd be on a diet of just grass. 
Previously I didn't want to consider it, as he just wasn't strong enough to live out, but now it's getting warmer, and the grass is improving, I'm wondering whether to let nature take its course, and see if it does a better job than everything else we've tried. 
The downside of it is that at the moment he has a team of really awesome, caring grooms and yard owner monitoring him on a near constant basis - they're going out after evening stables to top up his slop forage, and testing his bite and his weight. They have a good working relationship with the vet, and they really care about Buzz and how he is, which as far as I'm concerned is worth its weight in gold. 

I don't expect anyone to have an answer, but just wanted to get it all down and see if there's anything I haven't thought of. It's just breaking my heart to feel like I can't do anything to help him.
		
Click to expand...

Hugs Hon . . . this is the update I so didn't want to see.  Are you asking if it's time?  Honestly, I don't want to tell you what I think if that's not the case . . . but I do think you will know, in your heart of hearts, when it IS time to call it a day.

I know how lucky you feel to have Buzz . . . but Buzz is very lucky to have you.

Big hugs.

P


----------



## stencilface (26 March 2014)

Oh no poor buzz and poor you 

If he would be happy enough and enjoy the grass space and freedom I would see if that would work. Could you hold his stable at the yard if he doesn't enjoy being out?


----------



## Ditchjumper2 (26 March 2014)

I think you know the anwser to the question. You have done everything and more for your boy and no one could accuse you of not doing your best, and for all the right reasons. However, I am with TarrSteps on this one. Vets like the new challenge and the opportunity to achieve the end goal....at whatever cost, and I do not just mean the money.

Look at your boy, look at his eyes......and you will have your answer. Big hugs to you x


----------



## Twiglet (26 March 2014)

Thanks all. Mattydog, the turning away would be post muscle relaxant treatment, providing it worked to the extent he was back to where he was a few weeks ago - able to graze and eat hard feed but not hay. 
In reality that treatment starts tomorrow and I'll be going ahead with it - I'm not near ready to make a decision in the next 24 hours. 

Tarrsteps - thank you, I hear where you're coming from. In reality there is no precedent here - it's an incredibly rare cancer with a very uncertain outcome with this treatment. 
Best case scenario, he'll improve day to day and in 5 months time I'll take him back to the RVC for a CT and he'll be clear of cancer, requiring only ongoing check ups, but be otherwise a normal horse with every chance of a normal life.

Otherwise, I'm going to spend the next 5 months treating all these set backs, asking more and more of his poor battered body, and having to let him go at the end of it when the CT shows the cancer hasn't responded to it. 
If I had a crystal ball and it showed that he was still going to poorly, I'd make the decision today. 

But in the meantime he is SO chirpy and happy in himself. He schooled himself over trotting poles on Friday night for his own entertainment. I brought him from the field on Sunday and he emptied a bucket over me, smashed a grooming kit, untied himself and walked off (not all at the same time). To look at him, other than his poor face and his ribs, you'd think he was a relatively healthy happy horse. At no point has he spent a sustained period looking blue or sorry for himself.


----------



## Jane_Lou (26 March 2014)

I am so sorry you have got to this position.  Only you can know what is best for him and no one will judge you, if you decide enough is enough as frankly you have gone above and beyond for him already. 

I have not commented before as I went through a similar yet different situation. I was there 10 years ago with my precious and very special little dressage horse. There were two difference though, he was 23 and it was November. I also had no insurance cover at all due to his age but was happy to fund (within reason) any treatment he needed. You don't have to read below but it might give you some comfort in the fact that others have been through similar decisions with this horrid disease. 




I noticed a lump to the side of my horses throat and after various biopsies and blood tests the vets had identified a large tumour on his Thyroid and then he developed altered behaviours suggesting another in his brain.  He had all but stopped eating he was dropping off rapidly. A week in the RVC brought us no further forward as did consults with many other vets around the country. There was no surgical option offered due to the position of the tumour so the plan was to see how he went over a period of time and manage him with pain relief. His weight was dropping, he stopped eating any form of long fibre, not even chopped fibre like redigrass which he always loved and when he refused haylage I knew things were bad. We found he would eat Spillers High Fibre Nuts soaked into a mash so there was a constant supply made available to him, then he would only eat them if hand fed so all the staff and liveries would pop into his stable on and off all day to feeds him as much as he would eat but he still dropped more as his appetite was clearly compromised. He was on IV painkillers twice a week as this was really all the vets could offer at that time. Had it been spring I would happily have turned him away and seen what magic Dr Green could perform but it wasn't, it was late October and the weather was already bad.  He hated winter, he hated wind and rain and being out in bad weather, he hated the cold, he just hated everything about winter and always had. I made the decision and had him put down on the 5th November. In reality I know myself that I would have been making the same decision within a matter of weeks of turning him away as it wouldn't have changed the fact he wasn't eating.

Many I think thought I had not given him enough time or chances as it all happened over a 3 month period, but I knew my horse and my lovely and brilliant vet knew my horse and we both knew we were doing the right thing.


----------



## TableDancer (26 March 2014)

ihatework said:



			I want to give you an incredibly big hug.
What a horrible journey you have been on with a horse you so clearly adore.
Maybe it is time to consider if you have reached the end of that journey.
		
Click to expand...

^^^^Beautifullly put.


----------



## DonkeyClub (26 March 2014)

Is he only just starting the methocarbonal treatment? I would definately give that the 5 days to see what effects it has.
& sounds corny but would an Arc Equine machine help? Could someone lend you one?

What about a decent osteopath ? My Osteo  does plenty of work on relieving jaws & making the jaw more mobile, I will Pm you his details. 

& if the grass is really lush and long in this field, I would definately try it. Constant grazing really would go someway to relieving that spasm. Muscles can't work again unless they're forced into use& exercised. 
Silly analogy but I would perhaps compare this to the story of the guy who was paralysed in an accident, doctors told him there was nothing he could do& he'd never walk again, after 5 years in a wheelchair, one day he met this yoga instructor who started doing gentle exercises with him & some months later he was walking and running! So you can make the body do amazing things,  if pushed in the right direction.


----------



## kerilli (26 March 2014)

Poor you and poor poor Buzz. I know this is horrible but if he were mine I would 100% be on the phone to the vet now and have him pts tonight, before he suffers any more. You tried your absolute best, you did everything you could (more than many people would have done) but if he cannot eat and is in constant pain, that is really no quality of life at all. 

Fwiw I have had horses a long time and have had to have quite a few put down over the years. Invariably the indecision and the wait is the absolute worst thing. They are indescribably awful. Once you have had it done, a bit of relief honestly help the grief. You should have no guilt at all. You did everything you could.


----------



## Patterdale (26 March 2014)

Hugs to you. 

Not so long ago I had a fantastic self produced 2* eventer. He had an horrific accident in the field and spent 4 months in vet hospital and another 3 on box rest at home. 
Then, after deteriorations, he was PTS. 

Throughout, there were fantastic vets working on his case, from all over the country. They were all so positive about each new treatment that I just got carried away along with them, and felt like I had no option but to say yes. 

I now see that the vets (and this is not supposed to be a slight on them as such), were so keen to keep him going as they just 'had' to solve it. TarrSteps says it very well -



TarrSteps said:



			Also, I love vets but they are scientists. They are hard wired and educated to solve problems. They are also supposed to do what the client wants or says they want. They are not, and should not be thought of, as spiritual advisors or ethics guides. I know what it's like to have vets invested and feel that somehow you owe them a certain decision, but at the end of the day they are hired guns. (As are trainers and grooms.) The ultimate responsibility is with the owner.
		
Click to expand...

Part of my reasoning for putting him through all the treatments was that I thought I would feel guilty if I had him PTS without throwing everything I could at it. But actually, afterwards, I just felt do guilty for putting him through it at all 

In the end I dosed him up on everything i could and chucked him out in the field after half a year in, bandaged to above his hock and too fed up to even run around. He stayed out in a lush field for a few days (it was summer by then) and was then PTS with his head in a bucket. That week was one of the kindest things I feel I did for him. 

The point I'm trying to make is.....it's easy to get carried away with what the vets are telling you. 
What do YOU think? Truthfully?

Xx


----------



## be positive (26 March 2014)

I am with TarrSteps on this, what is the end goal and is there a future of a quality life for him to make going through any more worth it, the only suggestion I can make regarding his current issues with the spasm is has osteo been considered, I used one recently on my horse who has had some problems in his mouth and jaw, she was able to really help with relaxing his far more minor issues but it could be worth considering, vets do not always want to involve alternative therapists but they do offer a different approach.

Whatever you do now remember Buzz has had the best of everything available and is a very lucky boy xxx


----------



## Gamebird (26 March 2014)

ihatework said:



			I want to give you an incredibly big hug.
What a horrible journey you have been on with a horse you so clearly adore.
Maybe it is time to consider if you have reached the end of that journey.
		
Click to expand...

This. 100% this.



Twiglet said:



			In reality that treatment starts tomorrow and I'll be going ahead with it - I'm not near ready to make a decision in the next 24 hours.
		
Click to expand...

I'm going to be horribly blunt here... you may never be ready. Sometimes these decisions are not about what's best for the owner but what's best for the animal. I have put many hundreds of cats, dogs and horses to sleep in the last 15 years and have been many times presented with an animal (often a dog) who has gone on too long because the owners didn't feel ready to make a decision and were tentatively hoping that the animal would slip away in its sleep. I have often gone home in tears and have vowed never, ever to let one of my own animals get to the same stage.

You may well still be doing the right thing by your horse - I can't tell you whether you are or not -  but you are describing to me a horse in intractable pain who can no longer eat in any meaningful way. I would let him go. Having seen the things that I've seen over many years, often by highly caring, emotionally invested, intelligent owners with their animals' best interests at heart, I strongly believe in the old maxim 'better a week too soon than a day too late'. 

I am really, really, really sorry for you. I send you my deepest sympathies. Sometimes though it's time to let go. It's not 'giving up', it's not 'letting the horse down', it's just taking a deep breath and being really, really brave and having the strength to say that you did your best but now it's time to let him go.

Whatever you decide I wish you strength and courage.


----------



## Twiglet (26 March 2014)

Thank you for your replies. I do appreciate people sharing their experiences. I think perhaps that there's no 'right' answer here  

I hope I've been open to the idea of euthanasia from the start - the first diagnosis I got was followed by 'let me know when you're ready for me to come out and put him to sleep', and I've always said I'll fight it as long as he'll fight it, but I'm not willing to keep him alive for me. 

If he wasn't so bloody happy and cheerful all the time I think it'd have made the decision easier. 

I posted this before but this was him on Friday...he'd only been turned out in the school to stretch his legs, and chose to demolish the trotting poles for his own entertainment....he's just so full of energy and life most of the time, it's hard to believe there's anything actually wrong with him. 

http://youtu.be/1saRCEt02P8

http://youtu.be/R2smNs5CsAk


----------



## Twiglet (26 March 2014)

Just had a reply from the vet agreeing we should try the field for a few weeks. She ended with 'I promise I'll tell you when I think we're not winning anymore'...


----------



## CBAnglo (26 March 2014)

kerilli said:



			Poor you and poor poor Buzz. I know this is horrible but if he were mine I would 100% be on the phone to the vet now and have him pts tonight, before he suffers any more. You tried your absolute best, you did everything you could (more than many people would have done) but if he cannot eat and is in constant pain, that is really no quality of life at all. 

Fwiw I have had horses a long time and have had to have quite a few put down over the years. Invariably the indecision and the wait is the absolute worst thing. They are indescribably awful. Once you have had it done, a bit of relief honestly help the grief. You should have no guilt at all. You did everything you could.
		
Click to expand...

I completely agree with this; quality of life for me would be that he can eat/play/be "normal" and not in constant pain.  No-one could have done more in your place, he is really lucky to have you.


----------



## dianchi (26 March 2014)

I didn't want to read and run, I think you have your final treatment you can try, and I would be doing the same, but as an outsider this for me would be the last roll of the dice.

All the vibes in the world that this course of treatment works and you can get to the final CT scan and have it be clear.

XxXxX


----------



## TarrSteps (26 March 2014)

I just have to add, I think you do have to keep in mind, too, that prey animals are not like cats and dogs and well, us. They are hard wired to show a healthy face to the world. The ability to move and eat continuously is essential to life, they simply cannot curl up somewhere and lick their wounds. They have incredible pain thresholds and will literally go until they drop. This is not will, it's instinct. 

I don't mean to sound harsh and I don't mean this fact is even germane at this point, but it's something to keep in mind on a general level.


----------



## Twiglet (26 March 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			I just have to add, I think you do have to keep in mind, too, that prey animals are not like cats and dogs and well, us. They are hard wired to show a healthy face to the world. The ability to move and eat continuously is essential to life, they simply cannot curl up somewhere and lick their wounds. They have incredible pain thresholds and will literally go until they drop. This is not will, it's instinct. 

I don't mean to sound harsh and I don't mean this fact is even germane at this point, but it's something to keep in mind on a general level.
		
Click to expand...

I've said for quite a while that I think buzz's demeanour has had more to do with his attitude than his pain. He is this great big brute of a horse...and if it had been my old boy going through the same thing I would have made different decisions I think. Not because of quality of life but just because of physical strength and general ability to be relaxed and take things in his stride. 
Which at the moment is counting both for and against him I think


----------



## Gamebird (26 March 2014)

Twiglet said:



			Just had a reply from the vet agreeing we should try the field for a few weeks. She ended with 'I promise I'll tell you when I think we're not winning anymore'...
		
Click to expand...

I think therein lies the difference between your vet and me. I don't think of it as 'winning' or 'losing'.


----------



## Sandstone1 (26 March 2014)

So sorry you are having to go through this.   Whatever anyone else thinks, only you know your horse. You will know when its time.


----------



## Twiglet (26 March 2014)

Gamebird said:



			I think therein lies the difference between your vet and me. I don't think of it as 'winning' or 'losing'.
		
Click to expand...

Ah to be fair it's me that named them Team Buzz and keeps calling him Rocky, I can't blame her for the turn of phrase!


----------



## khalswitz (26 March 2014)

I know what I would do, but tbh I think that's irrelevant. It's what YOU are thinking that matters. But this:




			a horse who loves eating, and hasn't been able to eat properly in that time
		
Click to expand...

If my foodie couldn't eat, and it wasn't being relieved, he would be suffering more than he would be from a lameness.

I know I very much regret the 'summer in the field' I gave my boy before being PTS. He was sore, and despite galloping about and being a nutter he was still noticeably lame even in the field, and he got much less patient to handle as I got more frustrated with the fact he just didn't improve. I miss him SO MUCH, and whilst 'if I knew then what I did now' there are other things I might have tried rather than purely the vet, at least I know that he went peacefully and didn't fight, which for him was saying something. And he won't regret anything - especially considering the lovely groom and loads of apples, carrots and polos that he got the night before, and lots of cuddles and attention.

Ultimately, only you can make this decision. It could all be worth it and him come right. But quality of life has to be good - he doesn't know that you're trying to save him and make it better, only that he's sore.


----------



## Shrimp (26 March 2014)

Oh twiglet i don't know what to add, you've both been through so much with all of this and i really really hoped all would come good. big hugs for whatever you decide to do x


----------



## teapot (26 March 2014)

So sorry H  All I can say is given how much of a foodie he is I'd start questioning whether whilst he appears good in himself, he actually isn't... And it's not about winning or losing I don't think, it's about quality of life today and tomorrow, not in 6 months time...

Sending a massive hug x


----------



## Fools Motto (26 March 2014)

Nothing to add, but didn't want to read and run. Thinking of you and Buzz, all so brave. x


----------



## Kelpie (26 March 2014)

I am sending one of mine for surgery next week so your story touches a big nerve in me. 

I have tried rest with my mare and over 6 months later she has got worse, not better. So its surgery or PTS for me but I have already made the decision that if there are complications in the surgery or she colics badly then I won't fight any more - sometimes the greatest kindness is to let them go. 

It is such an individual decision, though. A close friend of mine went through colic surgery and several complications with her horse and it got to a stage where I would have pts. However, 2 years on she has her horse back. 

Whatever decision you make, its yours to make ...... But don't forget that as already highlighted above, too often vets think about whether they can, rather than whether they should  

I have seen horses with broken legs yet ears pricked and bright faced. Horses hide their pain from us, but our hearts can't miss the fact it is there. 

I so wish he comes through it for you but if you decide its time don't for one second cry for wondering whether he might have come right .... You will probably never know but what you will know is that he no longer suffers and that is enough. X


----------



## TPO (26 March 2014)

So sorry to read this; I was hoping for the best possible outcome for you both.

I'm in agreement with Gamebird. I lost 3 of my mares in relatively quick succession a few years ago and it was beyond devastating. There's nothing anyone can say to make it easier, it's horrible but there is a small comfort knowing that they'll never suffered a day.

I used to work in oncology and what those doctors considered a 'win' wouldn't be what most others would consider a win. Vets are scientists and it is understandable to want to see something rare through and throw everything at it.

At the end of the day the only person you owe anything to in all this is Buzz and I know his welfare and quality of life is your number one priority.

My thoughts are with you at this incredibly sad and difficult time x


----------



## icestationzebra (26 March 2014)

This is so so sad and I really feel for you. It's a terrible choice between giving him every chance, and knowing when the time is right to let him go. I agree with Gamebird when she says "better a week too soon than a day too late", but only you can make that decision. Big hugs at a difficult time X


----------



## claracanter (26 March 2014)

I didn't want to just read and run. Big hugs to you and Buzz


----------



## angelish (26 March 2014)

i couldn't read and run either ,iv'e quietly followed your posts and really hoped for a good outcome 
i just don't know what else to say but this is a heartbreaking situation to be in and i really feel for you and wish you and buzz all the best of luck x


----------



## vic07 (26 March 2014)

Massive hugs. Most difficult decision we ever have with horses. Xxx


----------



## 1life (26 March 2014)

My thoughts are with you. I had a similar situation/decision just 2 weeks ago. When the pain couldn't be controlled it was decided enough was enough. It wasn't easy and no-one can make the choice for you...but you'll know whichever decision feels right. Hugs x


----------



## Twiglet (26 March 2014)

Thank you again all. All those who think it's time, I'm not dismissing it out of hand, and I really do appreciate your thoughts.


----------



## Leg_end (26 March 2014)

You know Buzz better than any of us on here and you will know when it's time. There is usually a subtle shift in behaviour that probably only you would notice, but it happens, and that is the moment to make a decision. Trust your gut - if you are thinking about it seriously then its time - and whoever said 'better a day too early than a day too late' is spot on.

You are both in my thoughts x


----------



## armchair_rider (26 March 2014)

Leg_end said:



			You know Buzz better than any of us on here and you will know when it's time. There is usually a subtle shift in behaviour that probably only you would notice, but it happens, and that is the moment to make a decision. Trust your gut - if you are thinking about it seriously then its time - and whoever said 'better a day too early than a day too late' is spot on.

You are both in my thoughts x
		
Click to expand...

I think this is very good advice. Bets of luck to your lovely brave horse and his brave caring owner.


----------



## Mike007 (26 March 2014)

On old horseman gave me the following wisdom. The last kindness we can give a loyal friend is an end from pain.


----------



## Amymay (26 March 2014)

I think there's only one outcome here, and the sooner the better. 

Poor lad, and poor you.


----------



## nikkimariet (26 March 2014)

Nothing to add except big hugs, what an awful position to be in xxx


----------



## meesha (26 March 2014)

Thinking of u and buzz.  Go with your gut, none of us know him or see him day to day.  If you feel the next 5 days will be a turning point then u have to consider it as an option.  Just be sure that you will feel comfortable leaving him in the field afterwards without the constant supervision he has been getting, if he is only checked once or twice a day are u going to panic every time it gets cold or rains? Xx


----------



## Undecided (26 March 2014)

Nothing constructive to add but I just wanted to say that I've just caught up with all your previous posts and just wanted to say how brave you are both being. If this were me I would be in absolute pieces. I can't even begin to imagine what you must be feeling inside and Buzz is incredibly lucky to have you as an owner and to be surrounded by so many people who care. Stories like this make every little thing I or anyone complain about seem so insignificant when you think about what you are going through. Big hugs to you both and know that whatever you decide, you have done, and continue to do the absolute best anyone could ever do <3


----------



## amage (26 March 2014)

First and foremost big hugs. I would usually agree with the vast majority of those saying it's time in this situation but in Buzz's case I disagree. From your description he sounds in good form & well in himself. 


NB the next bit may be a bit upsetting to read...


I put down my mare in October....I knew her inside out & back to front and something in me just knew it was time in my heart of heart. She had just weaned her foal a week before and overnight changed. The change was nothing to do with weaning...she has never ever been bothered by the weaning process. She was flat, depressed, unhappy, and no longer had her "look at me" attitude. The morning I out her down I think she knew...i took her for a walk before the vet came down the road for her favourite activity...eating the last of the blackberries from the hedgerow. She bucked, farted, squealed, grew her self up to her full 17.2hh and screamed at the world to look at me. My OH asked me was I sure...I knew I was. Despite all her playfulness I just knew.There had been too many other niggly things that caused her more pain/unhappiness than they should have. As she fell after being shot she actually fell at quite an awkward angle (Dolly never could do anything in life in a simple straightforward manner so it was no surprise she was the same in death;-) ) Whatever way her head twisted as she fell her neck was at a funny angle and suddenly the vet noticed something. She had a tumour....quite large but somehow not visible or possible to be felt when she was standing upright normally. And straight away I had instant comfort that I had made the right choice. The vet conducted a small investigation...the tumour she had was large and would have rapidly impinged on her airway. It was very aggressive....I had suspected something a wee bit amiss with her in August but despite going over her with a fine tooth comb we hadnt found any trace of anything. She had told me she was done with this world and in her own special (awkward) manner also confirmed in death that I wasn't imagining it. I miss her more than I can say but I take so so much comfort in that knowledge. 



In a very roundabout way I suppose I am trying to say if I thought she had fight in her then I would have been her army going into battle...but she said no. Don't ask yourself is it time...ask does Buzz want an army? The pain discussion is an interesting one...no animal (or indeed human) can recover from major illness 100% pain free for the whole recovery. If it was considered unethical for any species to have recovery with some pain involved then we would never conduct surgery. The poster who suggested the Arc Equine is onto something...I would def ask vets about that. I have also used IceVibe boots on a horses head...long story but pain & swelling after head whack...no fracture so we tried them to see could we relive some pain. They were fab to get swelling out. The fact that he is untying himself/being mischievous would suggest to me that he's not at the end yet. Where there is life there is hope...in this quote i always take life to mean liveliness rather than breathing/going through the motions. I really hope for the very best for you and Buzz...if you can get to the stage where you can turn him out then brilliant. Perhaps bring him out to the field on a lunge line and see what he does...graze/try to ****** off/stand looking at you saying I want in?!? You know your horse, you have been his rock all the way through this. It is ok to say the time is now but equally it is just as ok to say you know what he's fighting so let's fight a bit more. 

You & Buzz are in my thoughts.


----------



## cundlegreen (26 March 2014)

My sympathies are with you too. I had my old mare - horse of a lifetime- come up lame for the second time with a DDFT injury. I worried that I was considering putting her down for selfish reasons,  but after giving her 6 weeks enclosed rest, she still wasn't right and had no quality of life. The day I made the decision and saw it carried out, I felt a huge relief that I had done the right thing. Give Buzz the chance with the muscle relaxant, but do be ready for the signs that he's not happy. He has already had so much invasive work done on him, he must be incredibly strong physically to go through all of it. Re the Arc Equine. I have one, and have had good results with it. BUT.... it is supposed to aid cell regrowth, and I would be very careful, and seek advice as to whether it might reactivate the cancer. Very best wishes.


----------



## TarrSteps (26 March 2014)

To everyone suggesting the Arc Equine, please read up on the contraindications. 

For all the press, supporters of the technology do NOT promote it as a 'no risk, cures everything' option. To suggest it without understanding that is irresponsible.


----------



## glamourpuss (26 March 2014)

My heart goes out to you. You've tried, you really have. The love you have for Buzz is so apparent in all your posts.

If he was my horse I know what I'd be considering now. Hugs to you x


----------



## amage (26 March 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			To everyone suggesting the Arc Equine, please read up on the contraindications. 

For all the press, supporters of the technology do NOT promote it as a 'no risk, cures everything' option. To suggest it without understanding that is irresponsible.
		
Click to expand...


Apologies if that was the impression I gave it certainly was not what I meant I just feel it is something worth discussing with the vet team...or indeed Arc themselves. It could be a flat out no but still worth inquiring


----------



## Tiffany (26 March 2014)

So sorry you find yourself in this position, you must be really worried.
All I can say is go with your heart, you know him well which means you'll know if and when it's time to let go. Hugs for you and Buzz


----------



## Jnhuk (27 March 2014)

Hugs whatever you decide but I do hope Dr Green works his magic for your lad.


----------



## Tnavas (27 March 2014)

I think it is time to reward your dear friend with the kindest thing we can do for our animals and that is to put him to sleep.

The quality of his life has gone and being in constant pain is debilitating.

It is so hard to make the decision I know, but it's what we owe them for the years of love and trust they have honoured us with

(((((HUGS)))))


----------



## Twiglet (27 March 2014)

meesha said:



			Thinking of u and buzz.  Go with your gut, none of us know him or see him day to day.  If you feel the next 5 days will be a turning point then u have to consider it as an option.  Just be sure that you will feel comfortable leaving him in the field afterwards without the constant supervision he has been getting, if he is only checked once or twice a day are u going to panic every time it gets cold or rains? Xx
		
Click to expand...

I have been thinking of that....perhaps friend's field won't be the ideal place. Am going to do some research on local 'full grass' livery places, with owners on site who are available to check frequently and I could get there more easily.
Before the illness I'd have easily chucked him out 24 hours, he's very much an Irish horse in that sense and would live out happily. When he was undergoing radiotherapy he was out all day every day at the vet school, even through the foul wet weather. I think he'd quite enjoy being sent back there for a few weeks to be honest, but I can't stand the journey!


----------



## Twiglet (27 March 2014)

Leg_end said:



			You know Buzz better than any of us on here and you will know when it's time. There is usually a subtle shift in behaviour that probably only you would notice, but it happens, and that is the moment to make a decision. Trust your gut - if you are thinking about it seriously then its time - and whoever said 'better a day too early than a day too late' is spot on.

You are both in my thoughts x
		
Click to expand...

Thank you. 
It's very much a question of seeing how he's living day to day and whether he's doing the things that make him Buzz.
Post sedation yesterday, he got his head into the tack room next to his stable, and go on the hunt for hob nobs...it's ridiculous things like that that make me think he's just not ready to stop. 

This was him on Sunday when he saw his Hackney fieldmate being driven for the first time - it was very much "what the **** is Sid doing, and why does he have WHEELS attached to him??"


----------



## Sandstone1 (27 March 2014)

Hes looking good considering what hes been through.  Good luck with whatever you decide.


----------



## Twiglet (27 March 2014)

DonkeyClub said:



			Is he only just starting the methocarbonal treatment? I would definately give that the 5 days to see what effects it has.
& sounds corny but would an Arc Equine machine help? Could someone lend you one?

What about a decent osteopath ? My Osteo  does plenty of work on relieving jaws & making the jaw more mobile, I will Pm you his details. 

& if the grass is really lush and long in this field, I would definately try it. Constant grazing really would go someway to relieving that spasm. Muscles can't work again unless they're forced into use& exercised. 
Silly analogy but I would perhaps compare this to the story of the guy who was paralysed in an accident, doctors told him there was nothing he could do& he'd never walk again, after 5 years in a wheelchair, one day he met this yoga instructor who started doing gentle exercises with him & some months later he was walking and running! So you can make the body do amazing things,  if pushed in the right direction.
		
Click to expand...

That's interesting re: the jaw mobility, and the main reason I'd want to turn him away. He's an absolute chronic windsucker, which doesn't help the jaw at all - if he's out and has access to constant grazing, and being in a natural position (ie. eating constantly from the floor, and without the door to windsuck on - I'm aware he can do it in the field, but he does it very rarely when he's turned out now, and didn't at all while on lush grass at the vets), I think it's going to give the jaw a better chance. 

Have asked the vet about osteo - the bone is weak so would have to be careful, but it could be worth a chance. If you know of anyone please do PM me details.


----------



## cptrayes (27 March 2014)

Twiglet I usually err on the side of putting a horse in pain down, as you may be  aware. So I am hoping that putting in my two penny worth now may be of help. Buzz looks too well to put him to sleep because he can't eat. Whatever you are doing to get calories into him, you are doing a marvellous job. 

If the pain can be controlled, 'enough', and the vets are reasonably sure that the cancer will be gone, and he can nibble grass ok, then I would certainly give him the summer in a field under constant supervision if he was mine.


----------



## Booboos (27 March 2014)

I am really sorry you are going through this. It has all happened too quickly!

There is no right or wrong answer here. Because you are asking for opinions to me he looks a (very) good weight, active and energetic so as long as you can get over the current issue with the jaw affecting his ability to eat I would continue. Rusky looked a much, much sorrier sight in September and I was desperate to PTS (but could not because we had no diagnosis and a second affected horse!) and then we found and treated the third problem, he has put on a lot of weight over winter and oddly he has even put on muscle (which was supposed to be impossible due to the second problem), so now he looks super for a retired horse and I am even tempted to bring him back to work and see what happens.

Fundamentally this is a welfare issue and I think only you will know when he's had enough.


----------



## EstherYoung (27 March 2014)

Booboos said:



			There is no right or wrong answer here....
Fundamentally this is a welfare issue and I think only you will know when he's had enough.
		
Click to expand...

This.

And hugs.


----------



## googol (27 March 2014)

My heart goes out to you it really does. I have been following your story willing buzz to get better. Your love and affection for him shines through in each of your posts. 
On paper it's easy for everyone to say pts but we all, as dedicated owners know our horses well enough to see when they are giving up or recognise when they are suffering. In my opinion as long as you stay true and close to that, then as someone else said- when there is life there is hope. Good luck, he is so lucky to have you and I for one respect your dedication and strength. We are all rooting for you's


----------



## alwaysbroke (27 March 2014)

Another who has followed your story and had hoped for the best for Buzz and you. I tend to agree with Gamebird ( I am ITU trained and have seen far too many humans suffer) but will add that in my personal experience with horses they can let you know when they are ready to leave their eye changes almost asking you to do the last and kindest thing for them . So hard thoughts are with you


----------



## ester (27 March 2014)

Am I right that in your previous pics they didn't manage to get the whole tumour out during surgery? I do think if his jaw/ability to eat doesn't improve quite rapidly and that the chances of the cancer returning may not be eliminated I would be serious consideration to his future. I do think it is different with animals than people when you can't explain to them what is going on.


----------



## Doris68 (27 March 2014)

I am so very, very sorry - you've done so much for your much-loved horse.  There's no harm in just giving him one more chance with the grazing.  As others have said, you'll know when it's not right and he'll let you know that enough is enough.  Huge hugs and I know that you'll make the right decision when it's the right time to make it!  Be brave.


----------



## Tnavas (28 March 2014)

googol said:



			My heart goes out to you it really does. I have been following your story willing buzz to get better. Your love and affection for him shines through in each of your posts. 
On paper it's easy for everyone to say pts but we all, as dedicated owners know our horses well enough to see when they are giving up or recognise when they are suffering. In my opinion as long as you stay true and close to that, then as someone else said- when there is life there is hope. Good luck, he is so lucky to have you and I for one respect your dedication and strength. We are all rooting for you's
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I have seen to much of people's desire to hang on to a beloved pet, to the point where one dog was hairless, blind, incontinent and falling down steps. I'll be bluntly honest, if this were my horse I would have him PTS. The quality of his life has gone, he is only able to suck soaked cubes, if he can't chew those, how is he able to chew grass? His jaw can only open 4 cms, how can he graze the grass. He is in pain. 

Give him what he deserves from you, a chance to leave this world with dignity and still carrying weight. If you let him go now you will remember him as the plump shiny horse that you have loved so much. If you let him go on and he loses weight how are you going to remember him, thin and distressed.

The decision is yours and I don't envy you, I will one day be in the same boat with my beloved Serenity, but I know I couldn't let her linger if I knew she was in pain. I love her too much to let her suffer.

(((((HUGS))))))


----------



## j1ffy (28 March 2014)

I have nothing to add except ***hugs*** and sympathy for you - it's a very difficult decision and I think everyone on HHO has been willing Buzz to get better.  Good luck, you have both been so brave through all of this.


----------



## milo'n'molly (28 March 2014)

I have been following your story and rooting for you and buzz. What an awful situation to be in when you've come so far but he's your horse and you know him best. He actually looks really good considering but as others have said, they are designed not to show weakness until they really can't go on so bear this in mind with the decision you make.
If he were mine I think I would give the injections a try, they will either work or not, but if not I wouldn't be keeping a horse that was unable/found it painful to eat. Massive good luck wishes coming your way that the spasms are fixed and that you get good news in 5 months time.


----------



## Perfect_Pirouette (28 March 2014)

I am so sorry to read this latest update Twiglet. 

I too would probably give him one last chance with the muscle relaxant....if no improvement though I know what my decision would be.

Big hugs. x


----------



## Twiglet (28 March 2014)

ester said:



			Am I right that in your previous pics they didn't manage to get the whole tumour out during surgery? I do think if his jaw/ability to eat doesn't improve quite rapidly and that the chances of the cancer returning may not be eliminated I would be serious consideration to his future. I do think it is different with animals than people when you can't explain to them what is going on.
		
Click to expand...

The main treatment was the radiotherapy - the surgery was about debulking the mass of tumour visible in the mouth, and making it more comfortable for him (which it did do, it reduced the size in his mouth enormously). 

The cancer itself is a bone cancer, so grows and lives in the bone itself, and surgery isn't an option there as it would involve removing the affected bone - commonly in dogs, it's the hind leg that's affected, so amputation is the first port of call - which isn't an option with the mandible, as would remove his whole lower jaw. 

So the treatment plan was always around surgery to improve what was outside the bone, and then a specific course of radiotherapy, guided by a huge number of CT images showing the jaw from every conceivable angle, to zap the tumour inside the bone. This type of radiotherapy is very much a slow process - from my very limited knowledge, and I stand to be corrected by more scientifically minded people! - it involves killing the malignant element of the tumour, and preventing the cells from multiplying, which takes place gradually, after the course has finished, hence why we can't CT again until August. 

Prior to this jaw spasm, the last mouth exam showed a reduction in the size of the visible tumour, and an improvement in the surface quality - which previously had been a horror show of decaying dying flesh (hence the smell that first alerted us to an issue) - to healthy pink flesh, all of which points to the radiotherapy starting to do its job. 

Whilst it's a rare and somewhat pioneering treatment for this kind of cancer (in this country anyway), the best case scenario is a 'full cure'. In theory this treatment can cure this cancer, and enable him to have a normal life, and that's what I'm aiming for by continuing with treating him - not keeping him alive to remain in pain and unable to eat. I am hoping against hope that these are short term issues - if they weren't, there wouldn't be a question. The spasm is unexplained, and could be a result of the treatment, or the cancer, but it is the main factor in his current troubles. 

If these injections work, and the jaw is released, then he will in theory be able to eat again, and the pain will be significantly less.


----------



## Twiglet (28 March 2014)

Thank you again for all your replies, I do really appreciate people taking the time to share their experiences. 

The vet was out last night to administer the third dose of the muscle relaxant (which can cause depression and lethargy - I think I'm getting the side effects on his behalf!!) - at the time he was being hand grazed by a friend - and the vet was pleased with his ability to get to the grass, which is positive. He also threw a bit of a tantrum - although Buzz style tantrum involving some mild squealing and standing still - at being taken back to the stable.


----------



## be positive (28 March 2014)

Reading your post above brought up a few more thoughts, the jaw spasm is an unexpected complication, could it relate to the fact that he cribs, is he cribbing more due to being in, having the drugs etc, has he had gastrogard or any other supplement recently to help prevent ulcers which may in turn help reduce the cribbing? turning him out may stop the cribbing and allow the jaw to relax. 
The prognosis and results so far sound encouraging, I can see why you really want to continue having come this far.


----------



## arizonahoney (28 March 2014)

Twiglet said:



			Thank you again for all your replies, I do really appreciate people taking the time to share their experiences. 

The vet was out last night to administer the third dose of the muscle relaxant (which can cause depression and lethargy - I think I'm getting the side effects on his behalf!!) - at the time he was being hand grazed by a friend - and the vet was pleased with his ability to get to the grass, which is positive. He also threw a bit of a tantrum - although Buzz style tantrum involving some mild squealing and standing still - at being taken back to the stable.
		
Click to expand...

Crossing all fingers - and making Apollo doing some half pass as well for luck - God, I hope he comes right!


----------



## Amymay (28 March 2014)

Twiglet said:



			The cancer itself is a bone cancer.
		
Click to expand...

So ultimately, there will be no successful outcome.


----------



## Twiglet (28 March 2014)

amymay said:



			So ultimately, there will be no successful outcome.
		
Click to expand...

What makes you say that? The best case scenario outcome of this treatment would be a non-recurring benign tumour, causing no discomfort or effect on him on a day to day basis. If it works - and admittedly it's a big if - he could return to a normal life, able to eat, work and compete. His Cambridge vet has always said her aim is to see him eventing. 

I know you're trying to help, but you're not a vet, and you're not treating this horse, so statements like that are actually not particularly useful - and are contradictory of the oncologists and surgeons treating him.


----------



## Twiglet (28 March 2014)

be positive said:



			Reading your post above brought up a few more thoughts, the jaw spasm is an unexpected complication, could it relate to the fact that he cribs, is he cribbing more due to being in, having the drugs etc, has he had gastrogard or any other supplement recently to help prevent ulcers which may in turn help reduce the cribbing? turning him out may stop the cribbing and allow the jaw to relax. 
The prognosis and results so far sound encouraging, I can see why you really want to continue having come this far.
		
Click to expand...

I have no doubt that the cribbing doesn't help - the stress it puts on the jaw (and his door!) must be pretty extreme. But prior to all this he was scoped and found to be totally clear of ulcers, and have no visible digestive issues that could be a factor in the windsucking. He didn't do it prior to his 4 yr old year, and only then on moving to a dressage yard with no turn out, so I'm inclined to think it's behavioural.


----------



## ihatework (28 March 2014)

OK so the cribbing was possibly a reasonably big chunk of info missing at the beginning! And I do agree his coat looks good in the recent photo.

That said I do think you need to be very clear in you own mind how far you are prepared to go in what could ultimately be a series of expensive and invasive veterinary interventions that ultimately could just prolonge the pain but don't change the outcome. 

With the cribbing aspect I can see why you are considering the current option of injections and turnout. In your shoes my gut feeling is that I would try that. BUT with the big caveat that if there was no significant improvement in 'X' amount of time then the horrible alternative should be done.

I am not an ARC equine supporter. But should this be something your vet suggests (which I doubt) then I have one sat here at home not in use that you are welcome to.


----------



## Twiglet (28 March 2014)

ihatework said:



			OK so the cribbing was possibly a reasonably big chunk of info missing at the beginning! And I do agree his coat looks good in the recent photo.

That said I do think you need to be very clear in you own mind how far you are prepared to go in what could ultimately be a series of expensive and invasive veterinary interventions that ultimately could just prolonge the pain but don't change the outcome. 

With the cribbing aspect I can see why you are considering the current option of injections and turnout. In your shoes my gut feeling is that I would try that. BUT with the big caveat that if there was no significant improvement in 'X' amount of time then the horrible alternative should be done.

I am not an ARC equine supporter. But should this be something your vet suggests (which I doubt) then I have one sat here at home not in use that you are welcome to.
		
Click to expand...

Ah yes, sorry - massive windsucker, mainly around feedtimes (which was what pointed to ulcers, but he was totally clear), and will do it on anything in the vicinity - water drinker being his favourite. Has tried windsucking on my head in the past. Never got to the bottom of why, but it does appear to be his favourite thing (interestingly, far less so in the field). It definitely doesn't help the jaw.


----------



## AshTay (28 March 2014)

Leg_end said:



			You know Buzz better than any of us on here and you will know when it's time. There is usually a subtle shift in behaviour that probably only you would notice, but it happens, and that is the moment to make a decision. Trust your gut - if you are thinking about it seriously then its time - and whoever said 'better a day too early than a day too late' is spot on.

You are both in my thoughts x
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely this. It's really hard to remember that you know your horse better than anyone else and you find yourself wanting validation of your decision from others. 

This is a horrible situation to be in - there is hope maybe and you don't want to give up on that. If he still seems happy and bright in himself then I agree. FWIW though - in the vids of him tanking about I didn't see a particularly happy care-free horse - I saw a horse being shoo-ed around the arena and kicking out towards the person and avoiding the poles nearest the camera. But I don't know him...


----------



## Twiglet (28 March 2014)

AshTay said:



			Absolutely this. It's really hard to remember that you know your horse better than anyone else and you find yourself wanting validation of your decision from others. 

This is a horrible situation to be in - there is hope maybe and you don't want to give up on that. If he still seems happy and bright in himself then I agree. FWIW though - in the vids of him tanking about I didn't see a particularly happy care-free horse - I saw a horse being shoo-ed around the arena and kicking out towards the person and avoiding the poles nearest the camera. But I don't know him...
		
Click to expand...

Ha. Not quite...this is the previous vid - I'm on the other side of the school with my back to him - he puts himself into trot and trots over the poles (which were out in the school when we got there, I didn't ask him to go anywhere near them). Before turning round and doing it on the other rein. Not exactly being chased or shooed around is he?! 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1saRCEt02P8 

This horse has a minimal work ethic - his attitude to jumping is 'if in doubt, run out'. If he doesn't want to go over something, nothing will make him do it. Yes he bucks and kicks out, but then he had just landed on the poles - and squealing! This was a good display of attitude and energy from him, it was refreshing to see him being cheeky.


----------



## ester (28 March 2014)

ihatework said:



			With the cribbing aspect I can see why you are considering the current option of injections and turnout. In your shoes my gut feeling is that I would try that. BUT with the big caveat that if there was no significant improvement in 'X' amount of time then the horrible alternative should be done.
		
Click to expand...

That's how I would feel I think, I wouldn't want to leave him too long with a jaw in spasm limiting his eating beyond that of the original problem. 

Thank you for the fuller description of what went on treatment wise twiglet.


----------



## AshTay (28 March 2014)

Twiglet said:



			Ha. Not quite...this is the previous vid - I'm on the other side of the school with my back to him - he puts himself into trot and trots over the poles (which were out in the school when we got there, I didn't ask him to go anywhere near them). Before turning round and doing it on the other rein. Not exactly being chased or shooed around is he?! 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1saRCEt02P8 

This horse has a minimal work ethic - his attitude to jumping is 'if in doubt, run out'. If he doesn't want to go over something, nothing will make him do it. Yes he bucks and kicks out, but then he had just landed on the poles - and squealing! This was a good display of attitude and energy from him, it was refreshing to see him being cheeky.
		
Click to expand...

Proves my point - you know him best, better than the vets, better than others on your yard and certainly better than anyone on here


----------



## Twiglet (28 March 2014)

Was a good chance to go back through old vids though....turns out the kicking out isn't cancer related, it's just his attitude  Although maybe my dodgy placement of the headcollar could have caused the tumour - not quite sure what I was thinking! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuBs1DGGv7s


----------



## AshTay (28 March 2014)

Twiglet said:



			Was a good chance to go back through old vids though....turns out the kicking out isn't cancer related, it's just his attitude  Although maybe my dodgy placement of the headcollar could have caused the tumour - not quite sure what I was thinking! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuBs1DGGv7s

Click to expand...

What a beautiful horse!! (shame about the headcollar, lol). He was showing off to the mirrors - he then properly checked himself out in the mirrors the next time round.


----------



## doriangrey (28 March 2014)

The very best of luck with him, he's beautiful and deserves a chance.  Considering what he's been through he's looking very well.  I do hope he comes right.


----------



## Twiglet (28 March 2014)

AshTay said:



			What a beautiful horse!! (shame about the headcollar, lol). He was showing off to the mirrors - he then properly checked himself out in the mirrors the next time round.
		
Click to expand...

He remains a total tart in that sense....if he was a person I think he'd be on Made In Chelsea....or more likely The Only Way Is Essex


----------



## star (28 March 2014)

This must be so hard for you. It's always difficult in these situations to know how long to carry on for but if the vets can offer you a realistic hope of cure then you just need to do everything you can to keep him comfy in the mean time. If he'll find it easier to eat longer grass then that would be best but if he'll struggle then he's best off carrying on as he is. If his good days start to be outweighed by the bad ones then it might be that things need to be reassessed.


----------



## Dollysox (28 March 2014)

In the end you are the one who knows Buzz best and from everything you have posted you are aware of what may be the eventual outcome.  I am a great believer in gut instinct, and if your gut is telling you to give him this chance then I would go with it, because you obviously are not blinded by unrealistic expectations.

I really hope it works, but if it doesn't I have no doubt that you will make the right decision for Buzz, and will do it sooner rather than later.


----------



## Booboos (28 March 2014)

I hope the muscle relaxant works well and he can be turned out to enjoy the grass.

To be fair to amymay bone cancer is usually (in humans and dogs as far as I know) a really invasive, really fast growing cancer that is managed only palliatively and there is no treatment for, but it may be different with this particular type of equine bone cancer. Have the vets given you a statistical probability of a complete cure, i.e. no recurrence of the tumour, similar numbers for the chance the tumour will return and within what time frame and the chances it will spread to other organs despite the treatment?


----------



## Twiglet (28 March 2014)

Booboos said:



			I hope the muscle relaxant works well and he can be turned out to enjoy the grass.

To be fair to amymay bone cancer is usually (in humans and dogs as far as I know) a really invasive, really fast growing cancer that is managed only palliatively and there is no treatment for, but it may be different with this particular type of equine bone cancer. Have the vets given you a statistical probability of a complete cure, i.e. no recurrence of the tumour, similar numbers for the chance the tumour will return and within what time frame and the chances it will spread to other organs despite the treatment?
		
Click to expand...

Statistically it's very hard to say - the cancer itself is incredibly rare, and this form of treatment even rarer. Cambridge are the only place able to treat horses with linear beam radiation in Europe (I think) and only of only a handful in the world. So the number of horses suffering from this cancer AND able to access this treatment is tiny, and every case is very different, so it's not a question of being able to access hundreds of case studies to assess the chances. The surgeon I spoke to in the States (the leading surgeon of this kind of treatment) said "it's the only option but it's a good option". He - and the guys at Cambridge - have had success with this cancer in different places and this treatment. 
In terms of metastising (sp) - there has never been a high chance of this with this cancer. It is likely to grow locally (without treatment) but it is not a cancer that spreads to other organs or systems. 
With regards to how the radiation works - when it works, it reduces the chances of recurrence to virtually zero (again - based on minimal case studies, but it is a "cure" in that sense).


----------



## Nicnac (28 March 2014)

Nothing to suggest as I'm neither a vet or an oncologist but as before I am sending you and Buzz lots of hugs and best wishes.  He is looking very well and I hope he continues to flourish; if he doesn't you will do the right thing by him I'm sure x


----------



## meesha (28 March 2014)

I think you are being very brave posting all this online, but again to reiterate ...only you know buzz and you will know when it is time.  My guess is that in your shoes with him looking so well I would finish the course of injections then turn him out to try Dr green but monitor on a daily/weekly basis and condition score/weightape and if necessary photo and video so that any good or bad changes are immediately noted.  Any significant loss of condition I would call it a day and pts with hopefully sun on his back. 

Fingers crossed the injections do the job and you will see him blossom in the field.


----------



## Booboos (28 March 2014)

"It's the only option but it's a good option" sounds like a good prognosis! Hope he can be added to the success stories!


----------



## Shrimp (29 March 2014)

If you remember my story with my horse, there would have been many who would have given up on him so i am with you on trying what you can to help Buzz. As you say its so rare and each case different it is hard for anyone to judge from the outside i just hope for the best outcome for you.


----------



## Jo C (29 March 2014)

Having had my vet out with needle and syringe in hand full of somulase and stopping him at the very last minute to give P one last final chance I'd say give the field option a go. I just felt if I hadn't given him that last chance I'd regret it. I also knew that if things hadn't changed within the timescale we agreed I would go ahead and pts. 
There is no easy answer to this and I do agree with the others re vets in general but you sound like you have an excellent relationship with yours. 
Just want to give you a big hug really xx


----------



## wyrdsister (29 March 2014)

Fingers crossed for you, Twiglet. I'm another one who has been quietly following your story and, based on what you've told us, I'd be doing what you're doing right now. Hugs and biscuits to Buzz x


----------



## PolarSkye (29 March 2014)

amymay said:



			So ultimately, there will be no successful outcome.
		
Click to expand...

So, ultimately, this is a deeply unhelpful (not to say unsympathetic) response.

P


----------



## spookypony (29 March 2014)

All I can contribute are huge (((vibes))) for a successful outcome.

You are approaching this in a clear-headed way, with as much information as you can amass, and with his well-being always at the forefront of your thoughts. That's all anyone can ask.


----------



## milo'n'molly (30 March 2014)

Thinking of you, hope the jabs are working as the weather is warming up and the grass is coming through.
Hope dr green can do his job for you


----------



## JennBags (30 March 2014)

wyrdsister said:



			Fingers crossed for you, Twiglet. I'm another one who has been quietly following your story and, based on what you've told us, I'd be doing what you're doing right now. Hugs and biscuits to Buzz x
		
Click to expand...

This ^^^ from me too.  However good horses are at hiding their pain, we can see it, and if you can't, then it's definitely worth trying this.  Everything crossed for a successful outcome for you both, I remember how excited you were when you first got him and was so happy for you (even if it meant you deserted us in the Club House for the more exciting world of C&T :tongue3: )


----------



## Twiglet (30 March 2014)

JennBags said:



			This ^^^ from me too.  However good horses are at hiding their pain, we can see it, and if you can't, then it's definitely worth trying this.  Everything crossed for a successful outcome for you both, I remember how excited you were when you first got him and was so happy for you (even if it meant you deserted us in the Club House for the more exciting world of C&T :tongue3: )
		
Click to expand...

Which is ironic as even before he was ill we weren't exactly setting the world alight  

This weekend has been more positive - aided no doubt by the sunshine. Vet is pleased with his weight and eating, although have yet to see results from the muscle treatment. But his face is starting to 'fill out' on the poor side, and he's grazing well, or well compared to how he has been. It's still using his incisors to rip the grass but he barely looked up in the 5 hours he was out yday. Very dull vid of eating. http://youtu.be/HvXa4QzUy-c 

And even more dull but just showing him being quite cheeky and happy to be out http://youtu.be/hANz2oBa0ck. 

This morning we walked to the downs and I watched the racehorses training over hurdles (jealous!) while he got to eat good hedgerow grass and play in puddles. 

Have also managed to find - thanks to lovely forum contact - a nice nearby field with a great herd for him to potentially go on holiday for a while


----------



## Twiglet (30 March 2014)

Has put on approx 5kg this week   







And gained a French bulldog stalker (she's worked out he sometimes drops treats from his mouth so is on hand to 'clean up')


----------



## milo'n'molly (30 March 2014)

That's fantastic, hopefully between the injections and the grazing his jaw relaxes enough to keep up with the weight gain.


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (30 March 2014)

He looks well OP, lets hope he progresses.


----------



## TheSylv007 (30 March 2014)

He looks really well, wishing you all the best and fingers crossed for you!


----------



## Supanova (31 March 2014)

Twiglet said:



			Thanks all. Mattydog, the turning away would be post muscle relaxant treatment, providing it worked to the extent he was back to where he was a few weeks ago - able to graze and eat hard feed but not hay. 
In reality that treatment starts tomorrow and I'll be going ahead with it - I'm not near ready to make a decision in the next 24 hours. 

Tarrsteps - thank you, I hear where you're coming from. In reality there is no precedent here - it's an incredibly rare cancer with a very uncertain outcome with this treatment. 
Best case scenario, he'll improve day to day and in 5 months time I'll take him back to the RVC for a CT and he'll be clear of cancer, requiring only ongoing check ups, but be otherwise a normal horse with every chance of a normal life.

Otherwise, I'm going to spend the next 5 months treating all these set backs, asking more and more of his poor battered body, and having to let him go at the end of it when the CT shows the cancer hasn't responded to it. 
If I had a crystal ball and it showed that he was still going to poorly, I'd make the decision today. 

But in the meantime he is SO chirpy and happy in himself. He schooled himself over trotting poles on Friday night for his own entertainment. I brought him from the field on Sunday and he emptied a bucket over me, smashed a grooming kit, untied himself and walked off (not all at the same time). To look at him, other than his poor face and his ribs, you'd think he was a relatively healthy happy horse. At no point has he spent a sustained period looking blue or sorry for himself.
		
Click to expand...

Your poor things.  This last post answers a lot of questions for me - he is chirpy and happy at the moment so keep going with your plan and don't make any decisions just yet.  You know your horse best but personally i would only turn him out full time when he is eating really well and stronger in himself, as to do it now would be quite a big change.  Good luck with it all.  Thinking of you both.


----------

