# Reality check...



## FestiveFuzz (13 March 2016)

So following on from my last thread, I decided against buying the dressage horse unseen for all the incredibly valid points you folks made, so thanks for that. However I did go try the schoolmaster before we left for skiing. He's a 16.2hh 13yo ISH. 

Initial thought was "wow he's pretty under weight given the winter we've had" think condition score 1 maybe 2 if I'm generous. 

Watched him ridden by yard and seemed a nice sort, a little looky but not reactive at all. Had a rather enthusiastic canter but think that was partly due to the rider trying to fix his head into a false outline...was tempted to shout "forget about his head for now and just ride him" but instead wrapped up her ride and hopped on myself. 

His walk needs a bit of work, his old owner was a complete novice when he was bought so I think he's been allowed to plod along a bit but soon responded after a few nudges with my leg. Trot was super comfy and left to his own devices he will offer up a nice outline naturally. He's obviously used to preempting things as as soon as I shortened up my reins a little he squealed, popped the tiniest little kick of the heels (so small I had to ask my trainer what he'd actually done) and bounced into canter on the wrong lead. Stopped, asked again and got a lovely rocking horse canter on the right leg. Gave him his head on the long side and pushed him on and he lengthened beautifully without getting excited. We had a slight misunderstanding on the right rein canter as there were jumps up and clearly he's used to being jumped as soon as he changes rein...motorbiked round the top of the school and panicked a little but as soon as I remembered to ride him and half halted he came straight back to me. Funnily enough even when he motorbiked I never felt unsafe on him, just think I panicked as I was bolted with at a viewing years ago and it has stayed with me. Checked our brakes round the top a couple more and then out of nowhere decided to jump him over a 2'3" upright...bearing in mind I rarely jump these days, could count on one hand the amount of times I jumped H over 2'3" and never, ever feel brave enough to jump a horse I don't know at a viewing. 

We've negotiated on price...he's £3k including all tack and wardrobe and they'll do a new set of shoes too. There was a niggle in the back of my mind that he's overpriced given his current condition and that he's a little livelier than I'd expect for a schoolmaster (and realistically will only get more so once he's put on weight and is fitter). However despite all this I liked the way that even when he acted up I felt brave enough to ride him through it and am still beaming at the fact I jumped him and that's before we've even built up trust. However a few friends have since echoed my thoughts on price and I'm doubting myself. The owner won't budge on price so it's a case of continue with the sale subject to 5 stage vetting or walk away.

Help!


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## wills_91 (13 March 2016)

What does your trainer think? At the end of the day you can't put a price on safety. If you really feel he is for you, you would be crazy to pass up on it if he passes the vetting.


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## alliwantforchristmas (13 March 2016)

this is so fresh in my mind after buying my new boy a while back and him coming out with all sorts of quirks which we are now working through and me thinking to myself ho hum ... I really should have paid more attention to that little niggle, but heyho, onwards and upwards ... my main concern would be what he will be like when he is a proper weight ... given he's a bit lively now!  With a condition score of 1.5 ish?  But you know what you can cope with.  I think price is a personal thing - a horse is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it.  But I would not ignore your niggles, from experience I think your gut instinct is usually well founded.


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## FfionWinnie (13 March 2016)

He doesn't sound at all like a school master to me!


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## DD265 (13 March 2016)

That doesn't sound lively to me - that sounds like a horse who's used to being ridden/trained in a certain way reacting in a certain way. 

What does your instructor think?


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## alliwantforchristmas (13 March 2016)

oh, I've just read a bit of your other thread, which I hadn't seen ... truly, with your budget, and the way you describe this horse in your previous thread to the way he rode today ... I would be hesitating.  He doesn't sound like a school master and there are a few things in your post above that ring alarm bells about the way he did ride.  There would be loads of fab horses out there for the kind of money you have, horses you really could pretty much get on and 'do' and be at the weight and fitness now that you would expect.  I would hang on ... you never know, your dressage prospect may still be around when you get back off holiday even.  Did you ask them why he was so thin?


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## be positive (13 March 2016)

Often once up to weight and getting ridden properly they will actually settle rather than become more lively, we are going into spring which is the ideal time to get the weight on and allow him more time out as well as some sensible work, people often think underfeeding will make them quieter, and it may be partly why he looks poor, but in my experience a horse with a full belly, hay or grass not hard feed, is usually content, more relaxed and happier to work nicely when asked.

He does sound like a schoolmaster to me, a competition one rather than a first horse, he will go better the better you ride and teach you how to find the correct buttons, jumping a horse you don't know and feeling confident is to me a real positive, I think the fact you are still smiling says a lot, as for price you haven't said his age, what he has done in the past but if he is a young teen with experience to elem, 100 jumping or thereabouts then in your area he is probably a bargain and if he looked well would probably be snapped up provided he is sound.

Sorry just seen he is 13, then still young enough to have years ahead and for you to take further if you want.


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## Crugeran Celt (13 March 2016)

Is his condition poor because he is to much to handle if fed properly? Just makes me wonder why a horse that is being sold is in poor condition.


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## chocolategirl (13 March 2016)

He may have been kept thin for a reason. Be wary that's my advice. How did all the other horses on the yard look? It's an old trick to keep them thin so they don't have any energy, then once you start to feed them up and they get much stronger, bingo! you have a nut job on your hands! I'm not saying that's what will happen, I just know from experience that it can!


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## FestiveFuzz (13 March 2016)

I think what I said to a friend the other night is probably fairly apt...he wouldn't be a beginners schoolmaster but for someone whose ridden for most of their life but lacks brave pants he's ideal...he makes me feel safe and not afraid to push myself out of my comfort zone which is something none of the others I've viewed have done. When I say livelier than expected for a schoolmaster I guess in my mind I expected a schoolmaster to be responsive to aids without second guessing me and probably wouldn't have expected the squeal and kick up of the heels when I prepared to canter...but like I said, none of that actually bothers me and for where I want to get to (medium dressage and BE80/90) I reckon he could be a good teacher. 

Trainer really liked him and thought he would still be well within my capabilities even if he sparked up a bit once he was feeling better in himself. Apparently I downplay my ability quite a bit when actually I'm a nice little rider...though to be honest I think she was just in shock I jumped a horse I didn't know! 

If he looked as well as he did in his ad pics he would have more than likely sold to the first viewer. Apparently his weight is down to the owner buying a new horse a few months ago and then losing interest in him until he was finally put on sales livery. I get the impression he was just turned away when the new horse arrived. I also suspect he needs his teeth done and will be getting my vet to check at the vetting.


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## rachk89 (13 March 2016)

Yeah be wary over how thin he was yet still being lively. My one was the same but he has still been amazing even once bigger. He wasn't as bad as a 1 or a 2 though. Might be ok but be wary. I wouldn't buy him given how he acted during the time when you rode him.  Says to me he will go mental once fed up.


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## be positive (13 March 2016)

rachk89 said:



			Yeah be wary over how thin he was yet still being lively. My one was the same but he has still been amazing even once bigger. He wasn't as bad as a 1 or a 2 though. Might be ok but be wary. I wouldn't buy him given how he acted during the time when you rode him.  Says to me he will go mental once fed up.
		
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Why should he "go mental once fed up" I have had many horses come in looking less than idea and being fed appropriately with ad lib forage combined with time out in the field and the correct work and without fail they are better once up to weight, none have gone mental yet and it is the right time of year to deal with a slightly fresh horse.

Being on sales livery probably means they have sharpened him up a bit to show him off, he has probably been jumped a bit more than ideal and just become a little reactive, it can be really tricky to get the balance between having them switch off when someone new tries them and being a little more off the leg than ideal, having sold similar horses it is very difficult to show them at their best when the yard has only had a relatively short time to get to know them, even pros don't get it right all the time and they may be over feeding him in an effort to get weight on quickly.


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## alliwantforchristmas (13 March 2016)

FestiveFuzz said:



			I think what I said to a friend the other night is probably fairly apt...he wouldn't be a beginners schoolmaster but for someone whose ridden for most of their life but lacks brave pants he's ideal...he makes me feel safe and not afraid to push myself out of my comfort zone which is something none of the others I've viewed have done. When I say livelier than expected for a schoolmaster I guess in my mind I expected a schoolmaster to be responsive to aids without second guessing me and probably wouldn't have expected the squeal and kick up of the heels when I prepared to canter...but like I said, none of that actually bothers me and for where I want to get to (medium dressage and BE80/90) I reckon he could be a good teacher. 

Trainer really liked him and thought he would still be well within my capabilities even if he sparked up a bit once he was feeling better in himself. Apparently I downplay my ability quite a bit when actually I'm a nice little rider...though to be honest I think she was just in shock I jumped a horse I didn't know! 

If he looked as well as he did in his ad pics he would have more than likely sold to the first viewer. Apparently his weight is down to the owner buying a new horse a few months ago and then losing interest in him until he was finally put on sales livery. I get the impression he was just turned away when the new horse arrived. I also suspect he needs his teeth done and will be getting my vet to check at the vetting.
		
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LOL ... you are smitten OP ... go for it!  Sometimes you just know that you can't walk away or you will spend your entire life thinking 'what if'.  I hope he passes the vetting for you and you have loads of luck and success with him


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## FestiveFuzz (13 March 2016)

I feel I've accidentally misrepresented him. He definitely wasn't sharp off the leg...needed a few subtle nudges to keep the pace I want most of the time if I'm honest but not ploddy...it's hard to describe. When he squealed into canter I hadn't put my leg on but had foolishly chosen the corner he was first asked to canter on when he was shown to me so I think it was more a "wee I know what I'm doing here" rather than anything nasty. 

His owner was a total novice when they bought him and got to competing RC and low level eventing so I can't imagine he was horrifically sharp with them if what I've been told is to be believed. Surely with him being on sales livery they'd have to be rather bold to advertise him as a schoolmaster if he was a total nut job?


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## Pigeon (13 March 2016)

Condition score of 1 is pretty dire. ISHs tend to be very good doers. I have two retirees who are fatties on poor grazing and a little hay and nothing else! Are you sure he's not a TB?  I would find it odd that a sales livery yard would want anyone viewing a horse in that state, it doesn't look good for their reputation. Perhaps he has ulcers? What's he supposed to be a schoolmaster in? I assumed dressage from your last post, he sounds more like a RC type? Have you looked at his competition record? Just seems a very very different option to the mare. Is he the first you've viewed?

£3k is pretty cheap tbh, so it's not too much of a gamble, and he could turn out to be a gem. If he's the one, you will know.


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## FestiveFuzz (13 March 2016)

He's 1/4 TB, 1/4 ID and 1/2 SF. He's more of an allrounder but then again dressage has been my safe place for so long and now I'm more confident I desperately want to get out and start jumping again with a goal of doing BE80/90. My old mare was very point and shoot with jumping and that's what I'm looking for with the new horse as I feel braver on something that can get me out of trouble when I get the strides wrong which I trust he could do. But yes, the weight does really worry me.


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## bouncing_ball (13 March 2016)

FestiveFuzz said:



			He's 1/4 TB, 1/4 ID and 1/2 SF. He's more of an allrounder but then again dressage has been my safe place for so long and now I'm more confident I desperately want to get out and start jumping again with a goal of doing BE80/90. My old mare was very point and shoot with jumping and that's what I'm looking for with the new horse as I feel braver on something that can get me out of trouble when I get the strides wrong which I trust he could do. But yes, the weight does really worry me.
		
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SF = Selle Francais?


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## FfionWinnie (13 March 2016)

Have you seen video evidence that he has plenty of competition experience?  Have you searched on his name to find out if he has any?  If he has, he should be known at local venues or at a RC or something. School masters don't get there by being owned by novices after all. 

I know for instance I could say phone my local venue and they will tell you their thoughts on either of my horses and they are relatively young and not been out that much.


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## ROMANY 1959 (13 March 2016)

I would be wary of him being so thin...do they keep it lean because if it's fed bucket feed does it go loopy ?


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## gunnergundog (13 March 2016)

You want a schoolmaster for medium level dressage and eventing at BE90.  OK.........I assume therefore that this guy has a competition record at least at those levels if he is a schoolmaster.  How many points does he have and what has he done eventing wise.  Was he ridden by a pro or an amateur?

I would be very wary unless the sellers have a very good reason for the condition he is in. Do the sellers have a good reputation?  To be honest, I would expect a schoolmaster at medium dressage and one that jumps sensibly for an amateur to command more than the price you indicate - assuming he has no vices and is hackable.

IF you go ahead, get a VERY good specialist equine vet to do the vetting and get bloods taken.  Do a lot of homework on the internet on his competition name (ask to see his passport) and contact previous owners.

Buyer beware!  I have alarm bells ringing - hope I am wrong.


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## eggs (13 March 2016)

I hope the vetting goes well and you have many happy years with him.  It definitely sounds as though he has clicked with you.  I don't think he is overpriced given that he is coming with his wardrobe.

I'll go against the grain here and don't necessarily agree that getting the weight on him will make him go loopy.


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## rowan666 (13 March 2016)

I think if you've got "that" feeling about him then go for it! I also don't necessarily think he will turn loopy once upto weight (my Anglo came back of loan in a very poor condition but still lively and I know he 100% won't be loopy when he's back upto weight he will be exactly the same forward but very sensible as always) but i would be wary of why he's in that condition i.e any underlying health issues but you really can't put a price on that feeling you get when it just feels right


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## FestiveFuzz (13 March 2016)

I'm still waiting on his passport so haven't had a chance to check his records yet. Apparently he was produced by an event yard...Brock someone I think...but then sold on so clearly wasn't a worldbeater but that's not what I'm looking for.

I'm away skiing at the moment so communication isn't as simple as just picking up the phone (well not without ridiculous charges) so I'm relying on text and email annoyingly.


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## FestiveFuzz (13 March 2016)

In honesty I think I'm just concerned by his current weight and the fact the passport wasn't to hand when I viewed him which I'd have expected from a sales livery, but it's really hard as he's the first horse I've viewed that has made me feel brave and I'm terrified of walking away and regretting it.


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## gunnergundog (13 March 2016)

Please do NOT proceed without seeing/touching the passport and confirming that the horse in front of you and the one in the passport are one and the same.

I can not think of any legitimate reason why a vendor with a horse on sales livery does not have the passport to hand.  

However, putting that to one side for the moment,  the vendor should still have been able to give you his registered name and a pretty good indication of his competition record.

Me smells a rat!  Buyer beware!  IF you do go ahead, get an independent EQUINE specialist vet and get bloods taken AFTER you have spent a lot of time on the internet checking his history/record and contacting previous owners - details of which you can get from his passport.


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## ihatework (13 March 2016)

From what you are saying it's not sounding to me like a good buy.
Get the horses record and get an experienced trainer to check him out for you


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## FestiveFuzz (13 March 2016)

I will be getting Liphook to do the vetting and trust my trainer who came to the viewing with me, but yes I'm a little apprehensive about the lack of passport. Apparently it was left back in the office but I'm still waiting 2 days later.


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## gunnergundog (13 March 2016)

Out of interest what was your trainer's assessment?  Did they ride it?  If so, did it feel like a medium schoolmaster to them?


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## FfionWinnie (13 March 2016)

Don't vet him until you've had a copy of the passport emailed to you and you've checked the competition record. He is just a 13yr old horse until you see evidence he knows his job and is really that age etc.


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## FlyingCircus (13 March 2016)

Why is it you were looking at/interested in two VASTLY different horses?
One sounded fancily bred and a challenge. One is supposedly a schoolmaster.

Are you sure you won't get bored with a schoolmaster? Given you were looking for one that wasn't the finished product previously...


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## SusieT (13 March 2016)

A schoolmaster for the level you want will be vastly more expensive than this horse even at 13- so either he's not the schoolmaster for the level you want (I suspect he's more a riding club schoolmaster) - where is his competition record? how do you know he's actually done much and how do you know he's not been turned away due to injury?
I would be wary of thin - means he's likely to be hard to keep weight on.I'd go back and try again at the very least. ask what he's fed etc. try him in a field.


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## spacefaer (13 March 2016)

I bought a schoolmaster 15yrs ago - he was a retired event horse with advanced points, schooled to adv medium and he was 16.1hh, 13 yrs old.  He cost me 5k back then.  

How much of a schoolmaster is this horse?  What has he done?  Has he competed in any affiliated competitions?


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## Flame_ (13 March 2016)

FlyingCircus said:



			Why is it you were looking at/interested in two VASTLY different horses?
One sounded fancily bred and a challenge. One is supposedly a schoolmaster.
/QUOTE]

I wondered that. Why not decide what age, size and type of horse you want, what exactly you would like to do with it and what you want it to be doing already, then view horses that tick those boxes?
		
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## ester (13 March 2016)

How long has the previous owner had him? TBH he doesn't sound like a schoolmaster to me, a horse that would do the job but not a schoolmaster. Could someone take him out and get a decent elem test out of him tomorrow?


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## FestiveFuzz (13 March 2016)

I'm looking for a 15.2 - 16.2 between 8 and 14yo that's been there and done that and I could just crack on with and have fun. I only considered the dressage mare as I'm in a position where I could put her on full livery and have her schooled by my yard owner. It was a moment of excitement as established I could never afford her, but on reflection she definitely wasn't at all what I was looking for. The schoolmaster on the other hand ticked all the boxes...it's just the concerns over weight and passport that make me think perhaps he's not for me.


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## FestiveFuzz (13 March 2016)

ester said:



			How long has the previous owner had him? TBH he doesn't sound like a schoolmaster to me, a horse that would do the job but not a schoolmaster. Could someone take him out and get a decent elem test out of him tomorrow?
		
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I doubt he could do elem tomorrow but I'm prepared to put the work into him if he's safe and sane. At £3k I wasn't expecting a worldbeater, but figured if he could bring a total novice from learning to ride to eventing that he would easily give me the confidence I needed and that's worth its weight in gold to me.


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## Apercrumbie (13 March 2016)

I think it sounds like you really want this horse - great!  Just get the passport thing sorted and ask for your vet's opinion about the weight.  None of this sounds insurmountable.


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## ester (13 March 2016)

I mostly asked that because if you want to do medium dressage unless he is working at or approaching that level now (and it really doesn't sound like it) then he is 13 so potentially only has limited time until he is a bit creaky to bring him on to that level. I do say that as the owner of a 23 year old who I've had for 11 years and who schools at elem/medium but hasn't competed beyond novice for some time as he physically struggles to take his weight behind to score well. It perhaps depends whether the eventing or the dressage has more weight for you.


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## splashgirl45 (13 March 2016)

did you look at the condition diagrams above?  and is he really a 1?  if so I would be worried that he has something wrong with him .my mare is nutty and some time ago she lost a lot of weight but she still behaved exactly the same as normal so keeping her thin wouldn't work to make her quiet...  however if you really like him and you feel safe that counts for a lot....3k is not much money for a safe, sound horse that you feel confident on......why not go back again when you have come back from skiing to try him again and go out hacking or take him round fields to see if he changes and you still feel happy on him.,  if he is sold in the meantime , keep looking...where was he advertised?


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## SO1 (13 March 2016)

If he is on sales livery he may not be getting any turnout which may account for his sharpness. If he has effectively been dumped in a field over winter and not wormed or given much care they can drop weight very quickly without access to decent grass.

How long has the horse been on sales livery. On sales livery the dealer will charge a fee for each week the horse is with them plus commission. So the low price may reflect the owner wanting the horse to be sold as quickly as possible so they don't have to pay for weeks of sales livery.

You have to see the passport before making any decision and ideally speak if you can to the current owner and possible see if you can get in touch with a previous owner as well.

I am going against the grain here and thinking that if he is really a decent competition school master who has fallen on hard times and just needs a bit of food and some refresher schooling to get him back to his former glory and will pass a vetting and comes with decent tack, rugs etc then he is actually a bargain.

If he has been competing at RC level can you find out which RC and see if you can find anyone from that RC who knew him when he is was in better condition?


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## AdorableAlice (14 March 2016)

Come on guys, the horse is on a professional yard on sales livery.  It is presented in a poor condition with no passport to verify markings, age, health records or breeding.  There is no competitive record for the horse claimed to be schoolmaster.  What is that telling you.

It is telling me that the horse is of unknown age and background, the body condition indicates a health condition or a owner who starved it because it frightened the bejesus out of her and she wrongly thought a hungry horse is a quiet horse.  It tells me the owner finally realised she was out of her depth and let it go, regardless of the state it was in, to be sold.

Always always read what the advert does not say and recognise what is not presented to you rather than what is.  A passport will no doubt be found when the horse goes to the vet.  With the obscure breeding of TB,ID and SF I doubt any recorded parentage will be listed so any old passport will do and at 13 I bet there is no chip to verify the passport produced matches the horse.

Cynical, me, never ! just seen a lot and have come to the conclusion that really honest older horses are hard to come by and really honest schoolmasters that have given years of pleasure are usually treasured and kept.

Be careful OP and I hope you find a lovely horse.


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## FestiveFuzz (14 March 2016)

Thanks guys. As much as I liked the way I felt on him I know that if someone else had posted this thread I would be saying the same as you guys so please don't feel this is falling on deaf ears...it's not, if anything you're just confirming my fears. 

He's been on sales livery for two months now but only advertised for a month as they wanted to focus on his schooling for the first month...in honesty this in itself worries me as he was clearly unfit when I tried him and two months would have been long enough in my mind to at least get a little condition on him. 

Was he really scoring a 1? I'd say quite possibly. His hips were really jutting and ribs were visible even when he was at the far end of the school. I agree my first thought was he was being kept thin to quieten but on the flip what if he's just fallen on hard times and with a bit of feeding could come return to his former self?

I did hack him on the day. Rode him on a main road and open field and turned him multiple times towards and away from home to check he wasn't likely to nap. In honesty I tried everything I possibly could to test him on the day. 

He was advertised on horsequest, although when I saw the ad I had no idea he wasn't being sold privately. 

I've contacted the seller this morning to basically say I'll be pulling out of the sale if I don't get proof of his passport today. So I'll see what happens next I guess.


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## FfionWinnie (14 March 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Come on guys, the horse is on a professional yard on sales livery.  It is presented in a poor condition with no passport to verify markings, age, health records or breeding.  There is no competitive record for the horse claimed to be schoolmaster.  What is that telling you.

It is telling me that the horse is of unknown age and background, the body condition indicates a health condition or a owner who starved it because it frightened the bejesus out of her and she wrongly thought a hungry horse is a quiet horse.  It tells me the owner finally realised she was out of her depth and let it go, regardless of the state it was in, to be sold.

Always always read what the advert does not say and recognise what is not presented to you rather than what is.  A passport will no doubt be found when the horse goes to the vet.  With the obscure breeding of TB,ID and SF I doubt any recorded parentage will be listed so any old passport will do and at 13 I bet there is no chip to verify the passport produced matches the horse.

Cynical, me, never ! just seen a lot and have come to the conclusion that really honest older horses are hard to come by and really honest schoolmasters that have given years of pleasure are usually treasured and kept.

Be careful OP and I hope you find a lovely horse.
		
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Very very wise words, which hit the nail on the head for me!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (14 March 2016)

Well, I think if he had been honestly advertised [not as as schoolmaster], but as as 13[17] year old in poor condition and on sales livery you would not have considered seeing him. 
Though it is not likely he will pass a 5 stage vetting, I would worry that he is never going to teach you much, more the other way round, and you won't find anyone willing to buy him after you have spent six months improving him.
I think they are looking for someone who will fall in love and buy regardless, it should not be you!
The sales livery has done him no good, so he will need two months to get him in to some sort of natural outline, and about three months to get the condition right. Really this is not your job: work out how much it would cost to have the horse at this yard, say  £1500 and you probably have the value of the animal at this time, assuming he is 12  going on 13, not 13 going on 17.
In my mind a condition score of 1 is a welfare case, he is probably nearer 2, but the fact they have not fed him properly is another worry.


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## FestiveFuzz (14 March 2016)

Bonkers2 said:



			Well, I think if he had been honestly advertised [not as as schoolmaster], but as as 13/17 year old on sales livery you would not have considered seeing him. 
Though it is not likely he will pass a 5 stage vetting, I would worry that he is never going to teach you much, more the other way round, and you won't find anyone willing to buy him after you have spent six months improving him.
I think they are looking or someone who will fall in love and buy regardless, it should not be you!
The sales livery has done him no good, so he will need two months to get him in to some sort of natural outline, and about three months to get the condition right.
		
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Very true. Had he not been advertised as a schoolmaster I probably wouldn't have gone and viewed him. It's hard as I'm capable of schooling and bringing something on, and to be honest he seemed fairly well schooled when he wasn't second guessing me so I don't necessarily think he's a project, but with my budget there's definitely something out there with less question marks than him.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (14 March 2016)

Best plan is to say, you don't want the horse. 
Or, if you do want a project, take a gamble, you could say you will consider it if it passes a 5 stage vetting with X rays and is a £1.00 cost. All conditional on you seeing this elusive passport first. That will probably anger them, after all they wanted rid, but not for nothing........... Really that is not your problem. If they say that is scandalous, just say that what you saw was not what they advertised, smile and walk away.

I have seen a horse made in to a schoolmaster, under top [world class] dressage riders, but the one I am thinking of cost a £1.00 and found a good place to call home, where he has his place as a schoolmaster for all ages and stages. I don't think they would sell him, he is pretty much a valuable and respected member of staff!


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## only_me (14 March 2016)

A schoolmaster that doesn't go in a correct outline?

The bouncing and sparkle wouldn't concern me in a schoolmaster, but the condition, no passport, no name to check record and the poor outline shouts that he isn't a schoolmaster.

At most, he sounds like a low level riding club all rounder. 
Personally I'd be looking at a novice eventer who probably won't go further or even a good PN horse who is again won't go further in eventing - they might not be advertised as a schoolmaster but should be easy enough to get on and go


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## _HP_ (14 March 2016)

What sort of people put a horse up for sale at a condition score of 1 ?!
What sort of people allow a horse to get to a condition score of 1?!
Why would you ride a horse with a condition score of 1?!
Good grief


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## gunnergundog (14 March 2016)

FestiveFuzz said:



			He was advertised on horsequest, although when I saw the ad I had no idea he wasn't being sold privately. 

.
		
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Care to share a link to the advertisement?


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## ester (14 March 2016)

gunnergundog said:



			Care to share a link to the advertisement?
		
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he's very easy to find given the info.

OP I assume he looks more like the second photo right now, and frankly what a photo to use anyway, that lovely downhill moment of canter!


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## FlyingCircus (14 March 2016)

ester said:



			he's very easy to find given the info.

OP I assume he looks more like the second photo right now, and frankly what a photo to use anyway, that lovely downhill moment of canter!
		
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He is, if I have  the right ad (South East?). If that is him, he doesn't look like a schoolmaster at all since they only manage 2 pics. One of him jumping and one a terrible pic of a canter...Surely a schoolmaster would have vast arrays of pictures from various events etc.


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## ester (14 March 2016)

I wonder how old the jumping one is. It is a nice enough pic but a pretty small jump.


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## be positive (14 March 2016)

ester said:



			he's very easy to find given the info.

OP I assume he looks more like the second photo right now, and frankly what a photo to use anyway, that lovely downhill moment of canter!
		
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He doesn't look that poor though just a bit lean, agree about the photo not being the best, he is described as a RC allrounder, nothing more and the suggestion is that he has done his job teaching his owner the ropes so they have now moved on to something more serious,  unless they have said in conversation that he is schooled to med/ evented BE then it is highly unlikely that he has done any more than novice RC teams. It is also clear that it is a trade advert, (T) for trade after the phone number rather than (P) for private.


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## ester (14 March 2016)

Hence more like, not exactly like. And if that was poss taken when he arrived has he got worse since there?


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## PolarSkye (14 March 2016)

ester said:



			he's very easy to find given the info.

OP I assume he looks more like the second photo right now, and frankly what a photo to use anyway, that lovely downhill moment of canter!
		
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Appalling picture - and it's tilted to the right so makes him look even more downhill!

OP, it's hard to judge from those two pictures, but from what you've written, alarm bells are sounding for me too.

Good luck with your search.

P


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## FlyingCircus (14 March 2016)

After having a quick look at who's selling him, it seems to be someone who specialises in "tricky horses and sales livery".
Word bargepole comes to mind. Especially given she's a dealer, so knows you'd want to know his name to do background research and still doesn't have it to hand.

Her other horses seem to be ridden to a decent standard and look well, so I'd question why after 2 months with her he isn't doing the same.


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## Regandal (14 March 2016)

Took me ages to find him,  ogling at horses!  Bertie is rather nice.


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## ester (14 March 2016)

Regandal said:



			Took me ages to find him,  ogling at horses!  Bertie is rather nice.
		
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hopeless and clearly easily distracted 
Schoolmasters, gelding, 12-14, 2-4k, south east only brings up 2 results


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## FestiveFuzz (14 March 2016)

ester said:



			he's very easy to find given the info.

OP I assume he looks more like the second photo right now, and frankly what a photo to use anyway, that lovely downhill moment of canter!
		
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Yes the second image is terrible. He's actually a little lighter than that pic right now but you get the idea...foolishly I was so caught up in thinking why would you use that image that I failed to notice his condition in the second pic.


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## FestiveFuzz (14 March 2016)

Ok quick update...apparently passport photos were sent to my phone on Friday. Have asked them to be emailed to me now so will see what I get sent. 

He was apparently started by an eventer and evented up to BE100 before being sold. I have no ambitions beyond 90 so if he's a point and shoot confidence giving jumper that's done a bit of everything I'd be happy.

ETA I rarely buy horses so stupidly assumed T meant telephone &#128563;


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## FlyingCircus (14 March 2016)

FestiveFuzz said:



			Ok quick update...apparently passport photos were sent to my phone on Friday. Have asked them to be emailed to me now so will see what I get sent. 

He was apparently started by an eventer and evented up to BE100 before being sold. I have no ambitions beyond 90 so if he's a point and shoot confidence giving jumper that's done a bit of everything I'd be happy.

ETA I rarely buy horses so stupidly assumed T meant telephone &#55357;&#56883;
		
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A quick look at the eventer's name/horse's name on BE website will get you his results in this case.


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## alliwantforchristmas (14 March 2016)

well I think he has a lovely kind face!  He looks a bit of a sweet heart ... but I am a sucker!

the guy's face going over the jump made me laugh ... don't get me wrong, I'm no Mary King ... but he looks terrified.  If that's the old owner and he got him over jumps I should think there's a good, honest horse in there somewhere.  I hope the yard are just genuinely disorganised re passport and photos and he's a nice horse fallen on harder times. I also really like that he's just in a cavesson noseband and snaffle!  how old fashioned does that make me!   I still don't know why he would look quite so thin after two months though ... my boy was a bit of a hat rack when I got him, but he's moving into weight watchers camp now (3 months) and that's only on hay and grass ...   You sound very sensible, as if you have thought it all through from your other post.  fingers crossed for you!


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## PorkChop (14 March 2016)

Too many if's and but's for me I'm afraid.

Why isn't he advertised on her Facebook page or website?

They should be making it easy for you, and providing all the information up front - it's like they don't want to sell the horse - alarm bells for me.


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## ester (14 March 2016)

I wondered why he wasn't on her site or fb page either, almost like she doesn't want to be too associated with him. 

Also as a sales livery does that make it technically a private sale?

OP he might be great but I think you can likely find something with fewer question marks over it and unless she has been hunting him for the last 2 months I'd want to know why he had dropped condition.


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## ihatework (14 March 2016)

Oh Gawd - just looked at the advert. 
This is a low quality RC horse that may/may not be physically right. Just look at its way of going and muscling will tell you that.

You would be far better investing 3k in a young green horse than that one if you have any competitive aspirations


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## FlyingCircus (14 March 2016)

His price was reduced Jan 27th and Feb 15th.
Interesting given that was a month ago and I thought you said he had only been for sale for a month? People don't drop the price the day after they put it up for sale.


ETA: Original ad posted on their FB group on Jan 19th.


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## alliwantforchristmas (14 March 2016)

I wondered why he wasn't on her site or fb page either, almost like she doesn't want to be too associated with him. 

???

he's on her fb page


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## PorkChop (14 March 2016)

FlyingCircus said:



			ETA: Original ad posted on their FB group on Jan 19th.
		
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Well the ad isn't there anymore!


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## FlyingCircus (14 March 2016)

Can't edit my last post so will just add to this...

He came 5th Novice pairs hunter trials in Oct 14
Went to fun ride Aug 14

Seems to be part of Warlingham & District Horse Club with his previous owner
Owner entered into dressage test (BE test 94 at RC event) with new horse this March 2016...So guess that part adds up?

It's so scary how much you can find out about people on the internet!!


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## FlyingCircus (14 March 2016)

LJR said:



			Well the ad isn't there anymore!
		
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It was when I looked literally just when I posted? I'm looking at their group though, not a page??


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## ester (14 March 2016)

alliwantforchristmas said:



			I wondered why he wasn't on her site or fb page either, almost like she doesn't want to be too associated with him. 

???

he's on her fb page
		
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Maybe it isn't public? I certainly can't see him.

this one? https://www.facebook.com/Equine-Age...orse-Sell-your-Horse-145294262186127/?fref=ts


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## alliwantforchristmas (14 March 2016)

try here ... https://www.facebook.com/groups/horstedhousehorses/?fref=ts


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## FlyingCircus (14 March 2016)

ester said:



			Maybe it isn't public? I certainly can't see him.

this one? https://www.facebook.com/Equine-Age...orse-Sell-your-Horse-145294262186127/?fref=ts

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Hart Equine, not sure Equine Agents is affiliated with them?


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## ester (14 March 2016)

Oh that just came up from googling the phone number!


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## FlyingCircus (14 March 2016)

Hmm...so this may be a coincidence but...

His old owner competed a horse named Dudley that did what this horse has proclaimed to do.
His old owner and Dudley were registered BE, the horse under Dudley Hynes.
DOB for horse is 2002, making it similar though not quite right for this horse. Also height is 17hh, so similar but not quite right.
Horse also has no runs BE that are registered.

So I guess if you find out his name is Dudley Hynes, it's safe to say he hasn't been run affiliated BE. 

Of course could all be a coincidence...


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## abb123 (14 March 2016)

Depends what you want him for.

If you want a friendly confidence giver for low level riding club activities (e.g. novice dressage or jumping up to 3 ft) with a bit of scope to go further then  it might be worth pursuing. Plus you have already bonded with him and feel confidence with him, which is worth a lot in my opinion.

If you want a true school master that has been there done that and can teach you to ride properly to a high level then I don't think this is the horse for you.

If you do decide to go ahead then I would get a thorough vetting done and I would be tempted to ask for the horse to be scoped for ulcers. He looks like a horse that has not done well through winter and has been stressed out by moving homes.

I would also put in a very low offer, well below the asking price. He is advertised for £3K now and the price has already been reduced. I would be tempted to offer £1500 and see what they say. Be prepared to walk away if they wont accept a low offer though, there are nicer horses out there for less money!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (14 March 2016)

abb123 said:



			Depends what you want him for.

If you want a friendly confidence giver for low level riding club activities (e.g. novice dressage or jumping up to 3 ft) with a bit of scope to go further then  it might be worth pursuing. Plus you have already bonded with him and feel confidence with him, which is worth a lot in my opinion.

If you want a true school master that has been there done that and can teach you to ride properly to a high level then I don't think this is the horse for you.

If you do decide to go ahead then I would get a thorough vetting done and I would be tempted to ask for the horse to be scoped for ulcers. He looks like a horse that has not done well through winter and has been stressed out by moving homes.

I would also put in a very low offer, well below the asking price. He is advertised for £3K now and the price has already been reduced. I would be tempted to offer £1500 and see what they say. Be prepared to walk away if they wont accept a low offer though, there are nicer horses out there for less money!
		
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I agree with above, but best to find another horse, there are plenty about, yes not many that are schoolmasters, but tbh I don't think you need something push button.......


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## WelshD (14 March 2016)

Hi

I'm not going to comment on the suitability of the horse, sellers reputation, passport etc as thats all been said by some very experienced people above

What I would say is this:

Its been a very mild winter, most equines will come out of it with a bit extra weight as opposed to dropping weight like you'd might expect during a colder winter, it would make me concerned that the horse was underweight

With regards to money, no one likes to pay over the odds but the price of a horse soon pales in to insignificance as the months and the ongoing costs roll on, personally if I wanted a horse I would pay over the market price if needs be


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## Exploding Chestnuts (14 March 2016)

WelshD said:



			Hi

I'm not going to comment on the suitability of the horse, sellers reputation, passport etc as thats all been said by some very experienced people above

What I would say is this:

Its been a very mild winter, most equines will come out of it with a bit extra weight as opposed to dropping weight like you'd might expect during a colder winter, it would make me concerned that the horse was underweight

With regards to money, no one likes to pay over the odds but the price of a horse soon pales in to insignificance as the months and the ongoing costs roll on, personally if I wanted a horse I would pay over the market price if needs be
		
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We would all pay over the market price for the perfect horse [for us!], but in this case, the market price is about £1200!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lets be realistic, OP buys it, spends £1200 to decide he needs a new home,  ......
will he be an attractive buy at £2400?


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## Annagain (14 March 2016)

How did you get his old owner's name? Just curious as I haven't seen anything that suggests a name to google!

While it's good to be wary and check everything out, I think if you really like him don't pass up the opportunity on the basis of us cynical lot on here. If your instructor - who knows you well and has seen the horse in the flesh - thinks he could be good for you, that's the opinion I'd care about. Definitely do your homework and you've already said you'd get him vetted, but a gut instinct is never something to ignore. The vast majority of us will embellish slightly when selling a horse so I wouldn't be too concerned if they've oversold him a bit, but I would be offering less given his condition etc. If he's on sales livery they won't want him there too long! Is he local enough to you that you can ask around about him? For what it's worth, I like the photo of him jumping he looks a decent sort. The less said about the other the better and I hope it is just a case of him being turned away and neglected a bit. Would they do LWVTB? Again, given that he's on sales livery, it might be a cheaper option for them than keeping him there until someone else comes along? 

Good luck, whatever you decide.


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## WelshD (14 March 2016)

Bonkers2 said:



			We would all pay over the market price for the perfect horse [for us!], but in this case, the market price is about £1200!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lets be realistic, OP buys it, spends £1200 to decide he needs a new home,  ......
will he be an attractive buy at £2400?
		
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I haven't seen the figure £1200 as the actual value of the horse on this thread, perhaps I missed it.

I didn't suggest what the horse may be worth, or make any comment on his market value v actual asking price, I just gave a different spin on it based on my personal opinion. Only the OP knows what the horse is worth to them.


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## FlyingCircus (14 March 2016)

annagain said:



			How did you get his old owner's name? Just curious as I haven't seen anything that suggests a name to google!

While it's good to be wary and check everything out, I think if you really like him don't pass up the opportunity on the basis of us cynical lot on here. If your instructor - who knows you well and has seen the horse in the flesh - thinks he could be good for you, that's the opinion I'd care about. Definitely do your homework and you've already said you'd get him vetted, but a gut instinct is never something to ignore. The vast majority of us will embellish slightly when selling a horse so I wouldn't be too concerned if they've oversold him a bit, but I would be offering less given his condition etc. If he's on sales livery they won't want him there too long! Is he local enough to you that you can ask around about him? For what it's worth, I like the photo of him jumping he looks a decent sort. The less said about the other the better and I hope it is just a case of him being turned away and neglected a bit. Would they do LWVTB? Again, given that he's on sales livery, it might be a cheaper option for them than keeping him there until someone else comes along? 

Good luck, whatever you decide.
		
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I'm very nosey  
His old owner liked one of his ads on the FB group and he had a pic of him jumping the horse as his profile pic


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## ester (14 March 2016)

lol


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## FestiveFuzz (14 March 2016)

Guys thanks so much! You put Sherlock to shame with your sleuthing skills!

He is indeed called Dudley. Have just received passport pics and his sire is apparently Baron De Chantepie and the dam is Glen Prinsess (not a typo) if either rings any bells for any of you? 

Price seems pretty non-negotiable sadly, so it's £3k or walk away at this point.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (14 March 2016)

You know yourself that he is not worth £3K, its a lot of money.


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## ihatework (14 March 2016)

FestiveFuzz said:



			Guys thanks so much! You put Sherlock to shame with your sleuthing skills!

He is indeed called Dudley. Have just received passport pics and his sire is apparently Baron De Chantepie and the dam is Glen Prinsess (not a typo) if either rings any bells for any of you? 

Price seems pretty non-negotiable sadly, so it's £3k or walk away at this point.
		
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In the grand scheme of horses 3k is not a lot of money. 
However it is a lot of money if the horse doesn't do the job you want.

Am I right in thinking you want to compete BE90 and school on a bit Ele type level?

If so, the price and breeding matter not a jot. This horse isn't worth wasting time and money on for that job. If he is sound, sweet and safe and happily toddles out hacking and tucks its nose in enough for unaff prelim and pops 2'3 in a riding club rally - then someone might love him dearly.

Is 3k your max budget? There is a coloured 'flash' advertised opposite that looks like a fun allround future competitive type


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## Hetsmum (14 March 2016)

Adding in my piece.....
Underweight would not bother me as its winter.  Lots of dealers keep them lean.  I assume you will 5 stage vet with bloods?
If you trust your instructor and they have seen them in the flesh then I would rather take their advise than a load of strangers from the internet.
You have had confidence issues in the past and the fact that you happily got on and jumped this horse a reasonable height means you clicked/felt right.  Honestly would I pay £3k for that - yes I probably would but lots would call me a fool and I may well be one.  I recently paid £3k for a very green and young cob but he has already proved to me what a star he is.  The price of a horse is nothing compared to the cost of the upkeep. 
I do think the word schoolmaster has been a bit romantically used here but if he truly was a schoolmaster who would take you to 1m etc then sorry but I think he would be more like £4-5k.  You are in the most expensive area of the country which does have some impact on prices.
Good luck whatever you decide 
If your heart is set then offer £2750 and leave it on the table..........


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## FlyingCircus (14 March 2016)

FestiveFuzz said:



			Guys thanks so much! You put Sherlock to shame with your sleuthing skills!

He is indeed called Dudley. Have just received passport pics and his sire is apparently Baron De Chantepie and the dam is Glen Prinsess (not a typo) if either rings any bells for any of you? 

Price seems pretty non-negotiable sadly, so it's £3k or walk away at this point.
		
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He hasn't competed BE, so something has been fabricated down the line!? The horse registered to BE had those same parents, 2002 17hh gelding. 

I'd walk away 100%. If they're making up that he has competed BE when he hasn't, what else aren't they saying?
There's loadsa nice horses you could buy for 3k.


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## ester (14 March 2016)

I have to say I would also be put off by anything that had been with a male novice rider for too long. 

A green young cob has potentially, and the luxury of time to bring on etc this chap is 13 or 14 depending on which is right.


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## ester (14 March 2016)

OP I hope you don't think all the sleuthing etc means we are being extra mean, I think just don't want people to make the wrong decisions/spend more than they should.


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## FlyingCircus (14 March 2016)

ester said:



			OP I hope you don't think all the sleuthing etc means we are being extra mean, I think just don't want people to make the wrong decisions/spend more than they should.
		
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If anything, just means I was extra bored :') 
3k isn't a lot of money horse-wise...but it is a lot of money. You don't want to waste it on a horse you're having niggles about 

If you still want him, express your confusion as to where his record is that they claim he has. That might give you some bargaining power.


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## FestiveFuzz (14 March 2016)

Nope don't think you guys have been extra mean at all...I've been on these forums long enough to know what happens when you ask opinions on potential purchases 

Budget is ideally £4k but could stretch to £6k if it ticked every box (we're having work done on our house at the moment so trying not to spend all my budget on the new horse). I've been riding 23 years so relatively competent, just not the bravest of riders so was looking for something that inspires confidence. Have been looking at between 8-14yo, 15.3-16.2hh potentially wondered if something eventing novice but needing a step down might be ideal as my only ambitions are to ride elem dressage (maybe medium if I'm lucky) and BE80/90? Must hack alone and ideally in company. Can happily sit the odd spook or buck but don't want anything that naps, rears or bolts. Currently away skiing so OH has banned me from horse hunting, but if you lovely lot see anything you think may be more suitable that would be fab.


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## ester (14 March 2016)

Lol true you are an old timer


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## AdorableAlice (14 March 2016)

Horsequest 146198.  advertised as 12 so he is probably 13 this Spring, ono invited, I reckon £5,800 is a reasonable offer for him. He has probably achieved as much as he will at the higher level of showing, would have seen plenty at Hoys and the qualifying venues, so should be sensible.


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## abb123 (14 March 2016)

FestiveFuzz said:



			Guys thanks so much! You put Sherlock to shame with your sleuthing skills!

He is indeed called Dudley. Have just received passport pics and his sire is apparently Baron De Chantepie and the dam is Glen Prinsess (not a typo) if either rings any bells for any of you? 

Price seems pretty non-negotiable sadly, so it's £3k or walk away at this point.
		
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In this case, if you still want him that is, I would make the offer of £1500 in an email that points out all the reasoning for a reduced offer. State that you will be at the vetting with a lorry to transport him home immediately and that you will pay there and then with cash. If they don't accept that then you are happy to walk away. Its surprising how much people will negotiate on when they see the cash and that you are serious about walking away. 

For what it is worth, I think you could find a far nicer horse for £4K that ticked all your boxes and didn't have the same problems. However I do understand that we aren't always the most rational and if he is the one then he is the one!


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## SusieT (14 March 2016)

what proof have you he will event? As currenlty he appears to have no record despite apparantly eventing tat be100 so already not the full truth.. he looks sweet enough, but I would need proof he'd event and to take him to a xc course away from home.
if he did all that easily and passed a vetting, probably a fair enough price


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## Kezzabell2 (14 March 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			He doesn't sound at all like a school master to me!
		
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that's exactly what I thought


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## JulesRules (14 March 2016)

Hi OP

I would maybe try to arrange the vetting for when you get back from ski trip. That will give you a few days to sleep on things.

Maybe go and look at something else as well which might help you to get things straight in your head. 

I'm a softie and I'm inclined to say follow your heart, but on the other hand I would also say trust your instincts if something feels off. 

These animals cost us enough and you don't want to buy trouble! 

Finally, if you go ahead with the vetting - listen to the vets advise. 

Good luck - whatever happens.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (14 March 2016)

Going against the grain here, but I just love his face and really feel sorry for him. He looks so kind, and like he is trying really hard to do what is asked for him. 

Never buy a horse based on pity, but if it was my money I would cheeky go £2k and take a punt. Whoops!  

Not that I am recommending you ignore the advice here though, all excellent points well made!


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## Goldenstar (14 March 2016)

This horse does not scream schoolmaster to me .
In the photos on the link he's a long long way from a condition score 1 .
A 1 will get you into hot water if a welfare organisation visits .
To me in the photos he's an incorrectly muscled low end 3 .


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## Hepsibah (14 March 2016)

I can't find him...


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## FestiveFuzz (14 March 2016)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			Going against the grain here, but I just love his face and really feel sorry for him. He looks so kind, and like he is trying really hard to do what is asked for him. 

Never buy a horse based on pity, but if it was my money I would cheeky go £2k and take a punt. Whoops!  

Not that I am recommending you ignore the advice here though, all excellent points well made!
		
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See this is where my heart is at. I fell head over heels when I saw his face and having ridden him I just can't get him out of my head. 

I've booked his vetting for a weeks time so I can attend, but can't help worry I'm making a terrible mistake. 

Given how badly his hips jutted I would be incredibly amazed if he were a poorly muscled 3, but as the owner of a rather chubby cob for the last 3 years I appreciate my opinion may be somewhat skewed. Trainer said he was lacking about 1/3 of muscle in her opinion.


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## FfionWinnie (14 March 2016)

I don't think he's particularly thin just under muscled and yes if you are used to looking at lovely cob bots you aren't going to appreciate that people actually like scrawny hat racks like him lol. 

I still wouldn't buy him however as the story doesn't add up.


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## Regandal (14 March 2016)

146419 is lovely.  Eventer looking to slow down. May or may not be called Ken!   Some cracking horses on there.


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## Pearlsasinger (14 March 2016)

FestiveFuzz said:



			In honesty I think I'm just concerned by his current weight and the fact the passport wasn't to hand when I viewed him which I'd have expected from a sales livery, but it's really hard as he's the first horse I've viewed that has made me feel brave and I'm terrified of walking away and regretting it.
		
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Yes a sales livery should have everything to hand at the viewing. There are a few things that niggle as I read your account but if what you are looking for is a confidence giver at the level he works at and your RI thinks that is what he is, you are the only one who knows how you feel when you ride him. If you like him and he passes the vetting, he is worth the price to you.


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## JulesRules (14 March 2016)

If you like him and your trainer likes him, I would go ahead with the vetting but be prepared to walk away if the vet advises that he isn't up to the job you want him for.


Maybe a bit more research on him in the meantime. If you can pick holes in their story it will give you bargaining power.


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## FlyingCircus (14 March 2016)

JulesRules said:



			If you like him and your trainer likes him, I would go ahead with the vetting but be prepared to walk away if the vet advises that he isn't up to the job you want him for.


Maybe a bit more research on him in the meantime. If you can pick holes in their story it will give you bargaining power.
		
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If in need of any help with more research...give me a shout! :')


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## FestiveFuzz (15 March 2016)

FlyingCircus said:



			If in need of any help with more research...give me a shout! :')
		
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Oooh yes please! Think OH might kill me if I spend anymore time on HHO instead of skiing


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## LeannePip (15 March 2016)

Just seen a gorgeous, actual schoolmaster on British Dressage Facebook page - immediately thought of you when i saw him and a really good price too.

Beautiful Grey Gelding
£4,500 &#8211; Malmsbury, Wiltshire, United Kingdom
16.2 12years. Super smart grey gelding. 
22BD points 
30 BE points 
This horse was professionally produced and evented to 2 star. 
He is easy on the bridle has a great mouth. 
He is established at medium moments, including shoulder in leg yield half pass and travers. 
He has a really smart medium trot all the judges love him and always scores highly.
This horse has so much more to give and is ready to compete. 
Change of job forces heart breaking sale. He really has been the ultimate schoolmaster only for sale as at my new job I'm not allowed to keep a horse priced to sell at £4500 must go.
Pm me or call

Nice pictures to back up the add aswell


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## FlyingCircus (15 March 2016)

FestiveFuzz said:



			Oooh yes please! Think OH might kill me if I spend anymore time on HHO instead of skiing 

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Send me relevant names (previous owners in passport) etc and dates and i'll see what I can find  
There's a reason I bought the 3rd horse I went to see...I stalked FAR too many across the internet when I was looking haha.


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## paddy555 (15 March 2016)

FestiveFuzz said:



			See this is where my heart is at. I fell head over heels when I saw his face and having ridden him I just can't get him out of my head. 

I've booked his vetting for a weeks time so I can attend, but can't help worry I'm making a terrible mistake. 

Given how badly his hips jutted I would be incredibly amazed if he were a poorly muscled 3, but as the owner of a rather chubby cob for the last 3 years I appreciate my opinion may be somewhat skewed. Trainer said he was lacking about 1/3 of muscle in her opinion.
		
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horses lack muscles for several reasons but one at this time of the year is shortage of vit E over the winter. There is vit E in grass from about Mar/Apr onwards so when they go out again they pick up. Vit E shortage can be easily rectified. If you were able to look at a pic of him last Sept before going into the winter it would give a better idea. (BTW cushings also cause muscle wastage but I cannot see a pic of him anywhere, I haven't worked out if he is 13 or 17) 

As for your first sentence then he could have a verified competition record a mile long, be in theory perfect but if you either didn't like him or more importantly didn't feel totally confident on him he would be useless to you. OTOH if you love him you will be able to forgive his lack of expertise in some areas and build on it together. For me the thing would be do you feel safe on him? All the rosettes in the world are fine but it would be pointless buying something that in a couple of weeks you were posting that he bucked, napped, wouldn't hack alone etc etc 

My biggest concern would be that he was doped when you tried him. If bloods are taken at the vetting can you tell the seller they will be taken and tested before buying him in the hope they won't dope him. Then can you ride him at or after the vetting when you may have a chance of seeing the real horse? Just a thought, don't know if that works. 

As for the price then he is priceless to you if he is a safe horse you love who can do what you want even if he hasn't got sufficient competition experience. There will be other horses out there in your price range who have everything on paper and in theory are perfect but in practice not every horse likes every rider and you could end up with something technically perfect that you don't really love. 
I would wait for the vet to go through him with a fine tooth comb especially to ascertain his age.


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## Merrymoles (15 March 2016)

Hi FF - been lurking for a while as I think this is a real quandary...

If you feel safe on him and he is good for your confidence, I think you are bound to feel that you have "clicked" and that can make it so hard to be rational. I would certainly be playing hard ball on price without more evidence to back up their asking price and would want a full vetting.

However, I am not the best person to judge because I bought a horse three years ago, just because we clicked (and I was able to pay less than the asking price). I still don't feel 100 per cent confident on him and I have had a fair few "oh god, what have I done" moments along the way but he has been massively rewarding in terms of progress. I took my instructor along to all my viewings as I was lacking confidence at the time and really wanted a plod but she kept telling me "you'll be bored in six months" and "you'll know the right one" and she was right, even though I suspect her judgement was based on my riding capability, rather than my confidence levels. There was another we tried, just before the one I bought, who we both refer to as "the one that got away" as, he too, was the right sort and I think we both wish we hadn't let him go, not that I would swap my current horse for him but I think he would have been less challenging on the ground. However, we didn't buy him because I had a niggle...

I'm usually pretty much head over heart but I think buying horses can put that out of kilter. It doesn't matter as long as you are prepared to play fair with the horse you end up with, whether that is in terms of vet bills, behavioural problems, confidence issues etc, but you do need to do it with your eyes open.


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## FestiveFuzz (15 March 2016)

According to his passport he turns 14 next month...not sure where 17 came from, I think it was someone suggesting without the passport he could be any age. 

Paddy555 you are completely right...no amount of competition record will matter if the horse doesn't make me feel confident. In Dudley's case he had a couple of silly moments but whereby I'd normally freak on a new horse, with him I just rode him through them which in turn made me feel braver. 

You make an interesting point re: cushings. Is this something you can ask them to be tested for during the vetting? I've never bought anything over 10 so never thought to check previously. 

I'm seriously kicking myself that I didn't take pics and a video of me riding as it would be so much easier for you guys to offer advice if I could show you how he was at the viewing. I'm also doubting how badly underweight he was. I recall my initial reaction was one of shock at the sight of his hips jutting out but then again my frame of reference for the last 3 years has been a cobby thing that only needs to look at a blade of grass to turn into a furry balloon so perhaps it wasn't quite as extreme as I first thought...more just a shock in comparison to the jumping pic in his ad IYSWIM?

5 stage vetting with bloods is a non-negotiable and something they knew I would be doing before I viewed him. I also have it in writing that he is vice-free and has never reared or bolted. 

Price they won't budge on...trust me I've tried!


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## Annagain (15 March 2016)

FestiveFuzz said:



			According to his passport he turns 14 next month...not sure where 17 came from, I think it was someone suggesting without the passport he could be any age. 

Paddy555 you are completely right...no amount of competition record will matter if the horse doesn't make me feel confident. In Dudley's case he had a couple of silly moments but whereby I'd normally freak on a new horse, with him I just rode him through them which in turn made me feel braver. 

You make an interesting point re: cushings. Is this something you can ask them to be tested for during the vetting? I've never bought anything over 10 so never thought to check previously. 

I'm seriously kicking myself that I didn't take pics and a video of me riding as it would be so much easier for you guys to offer advice if I could show you how he was at the viewing. I'm also doubting how badly underweight he was. I recall my initial reaction was one of shock at the sight of his hips jutting out but then again my frame of reference for the last 3 years has been a cobby thing that only needs to look at a blade of grass to turn into a furry balloon so perhaps it wasn't quite as extreme as I first thought...more just a shock in comparison to the jumping pic in his ad IYSWIM?

5 stage vetting with bloods is a non-negotiable and something they knew I would be doing before I viewed him. I also have it in writing that he is vice-free and has never reared or bolted. 

Price they won't budge on...trust me I've tried!
		
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I don't know if this is the case with this horse, but some can be an odd shape and if they lose just a little bit of weight can end up with hips jutting out where others will lose a tummy first. My share horse can be like this. He's 5/8 TB, 3/8 Welsh and 1/8 Shire and has really distinct elements of each breed rather than an overall mix. 

When he's right in the tummy - i.e. can feel ribs but can't see them - his hips and bottom look quite poor. When his hips and bottom look right, he's usually carrying a bit too much on the tum. We prefer him with a nice bottom so usually have him a little on the round side although at this time of year his tummy's about right and his rear end a little on the light side.  

You might find they'll budge when you hit them with the competition record, or lack of it, and prove they've been less than honest about his history. Stick to your guns.


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## MuddyMonster (15 March 2016)

FWIW, I think the 'feel' you get from a horse is worth so much more than is it ideal on paper. My Mum would tells me to imagine how you would feel if he got sold to someone else ... ? 

My boy was the wrong breed, wrong height, wrong age and far, far too green with a few silly quirks but there was 'something' about him and despite turning down plenty of far more ideal horses on paper, I couldn't stop thinking about him. 

Of course, as soon as the deal was done, I freaked out completely and whilst everyone was telling me how exciting it was - I was becoming more and more convinced I'd lost my sanity. 

I've had him a few years now and although it's been tough at times (he didn't get any less quirky  ) we've grown together as a partnership and he's given me the confidence to do far more than I ever thought I would. I wouldn't be without him.


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## MS123 (16 March 2016)

I think you could find a much nicer horse than this one OP, sorry.


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## paddy555 (16 March 2016)

FF, cushings can be tested for by an ACTH test which is a single blood pull. It could be done at a vetting, it is usually sent to Liphook and takes a couple of days to get a results. However, it is not always accurate for horses in the early stages. You would do better to check for cushings by looking for clinical signs. Drinking a lot and peeing a lot, loss of muscle (that is a big one) pot belly, ribby, horse looks fat around the middle but is in fact skinny, lethargy (another big one) coat failing to shed (look at his coat unless he is clipped out) is he mouting at the rate you would expect. Read up  the signs on www.thelaminitissite.com and look under PPID (cushings) when you know the signs ask at the vetting that the vet considers cushings. 

If you didn't get this horse would you seriously regret it forever? If so then take every precaution possible with vetting etc, if not and you will have forgotten all about him in a month then move on. 

I bought a foal just before Christmas. I bought him from a picture on the internet. One picture and we clicked over the net, I never even saw him before buying. 3 months later I am hopelessy in love with him and would never have got over not having him. Do you feel like that? Trust your instinct and intuition. 

I don't suppose they would let you have him on trial even if he had to be kept at their place?


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## FestiveFuzz (20 March 2016)

Ok quick update...went to see him again today and got some pics of him. Having seen him again I'd say he's more condition 2 than 1 but definitely lacking muscle. Confo wise he looks a bit out of proportion but can't tell how much of that is down to him being quite scrawny...



















He seems really sweet, if a little shy. In honesty I don't think he's really settled where he is...he's moved stables in the week it's been since I last saw him so not sure if any of the horses actually have a set stable or just go wherever is free at the time. He was also pretty dehydrated despite having access to fresh water...something I'll be mentioning to the vet on Thursday.


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## Fun Times (20 March 2016)

Wow FF that is some strange back and hind quarter conformation.


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## FlyingCircus (20 March 2016)

Poor horse.

I feel very sorry for him but I'm afraid I still wouldn't touch him at his price. The fact they're wanting 3k for him is disgusting in his current state. 

How much exercise is he getting? His hindquarters are very poor looking.

ETA: He looked LOADS better with his old owner...I really am not sure how he has managed to look considerably worse after being on sales livery.


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## Clodagh (20 March 2016)

I see you are having him vetted. I am not keen on the roach back and the way he stands with his hinds under him, but a photo is only a moment in time and see what the vet says.
He looks like a poorly looked after hunter that has done two days a week as a hireling all season tbh.
Dehydration wories me - was he kept that way to be quieter? Was the water potable?


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## concorde (20 March 2016)

Sorry FF but I think he looks worse than on the previous pictures.
And pretty odd conformation.
Did you ask about their claims that he had evented ?
I think I would walk away.


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## FfionWinnie (20 March 2016)

I wouldn't fancy trying to keep weight on him. If he was yours now, would you be happy to take him to a competition looking as he does, or a clinic?  If no, then what sort of person thinks selling a horse in that sort of condition is acceptable. If the people doing the sales livery think it's fine, then you have to wonder about their ethics frankly. 

It must be costing a fair bit to keep him on sales livery as well. He isn't worth 3k in that state and there could be more than just the time of year at fault for him being so poor. Unfortunately you cannot tell what the reason is, without extensive blood testing the vetting won't and even with it, it may not find the cause, so why risk it. 

I think you just sold your last horse?  Is the money burning a hole in your pocket, there really isn't a rush to find the right horse, buy in haste and all that.


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## FlyingCircus (20 March 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			I wouldn't fancy trying to keep weight on him. If he was yours now, would you be happy to take him to a competition looking as he does, or a clinic?  If no, then what sort of person thinks selling a horse in that sort of condition is acceptable. If the people doing the sales livery think it's fine, then you have to wonder about their ethics frankly. 

It must be costing a fair bit to keep him on sales livery as well. He isn't worth 3k in that state and there could be more than just the time of year at fault for him being so poor. Unfortunately you cannot tell what the reason is, without extensive blood testing the vetting won't and even with it, it may not find the cause, so why risk it. 

I think you just sold your last horse?  Is the money burning a hole in your pocket, there really isn't a rush to find the right horse, buy in haste and all that.
		
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Agreed, I would walk away if I walked into the yard and saw a horse in that state. So the fact someone is selling in that state, a dealer no less...the mind boggles!


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## FfionWinnie (20 March 2016)

FlyingCircus said:



			Agreed, I would walk away if I walked into the yard and saw a horse in that state. So the fact someone is selling in that state, a dealer no less...the mind boggles!
		
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I'm really struggling to keep weight on one of mine  - well actually I'm failing. Just turned her out on my lambing field because it's at the stage where I don't want to ride her and I know grass is the only thing that will do it. She's nothing like as bad as him tho and I have owned her long enough to know she doesn't keep weight on off the grass. There is still a little devil on my shoulder wondering what the heck is wrong with her tho!


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## concorde (20 March 2016)

I have just looked at the photos again and quite honestly I am appalled.
He either has a medical problem or is being starved ( into submission ?)
Poor , poor horse. Almost bad enough to be reportable.
What sort of yard would think it ok to sell a horse in that condition , especially for £3000 !


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## ester (20 March 2016)

He looks worse than I thought he would from the previous pics too tbh. I am also amazed that anyone especially a pro would sell her horse in that condition.

If they are feeding him a lot I would be seriously worried that he looks like that and that there is something underlying although granted he may have stressed some off since being there- though they said it was because previous owner sort of forgot about him when they got a new one iirc, if they aren't feeding him a lot I'd want to know why!


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## FestiveFuzz (20 March 2016)

Thanks guys. I think I just feel desperately sorry for him...he's such a sweet lad just seems a bit unloved but ultimately it seems everyone agrees he's in a pretty sorry state (I was worried I just had a warped sense of condition after my cobby boy who is a solid 4). 

To be honest the fact he's underweight and dehydrated is a solid red flag for me.


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## ester (20 March 2016)

He might be fine for some Dr green, a chill and a rest but I wouldn't want to pay 3k for the privilege of doing that/taking the chance. 
I would also feel pretty bad that doing so would make it seem like it was ok to sell him like he is.


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## Red-1 (20 March 2016)

I would not buy him, looking at those photos. I am sorry, but I would suspect he has had a fall or something, and there is something wrong with his back/quarters. I would suspect ligament damage, SI issues and all the rest. 

I would not even pay out for a vetting. If I really loved him I may make a token offer. 

Out of interest, if you go to see him again, it would be very interesting to have him stood up square, and see how far off balance out of centre, his backside is. I would hazard a guess that one side would be higher than the other, and one hip bone further forward than the other.


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## FlyingCircus (20 March 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			I'm really struggling to keep weight on one of mine  - well actually I'm failing. Just turned her out on my lambing field because it's at the stage where I don't want to ride her and I know grass is the only thing that will do it. She's nothing like as bad as him tho and I have owned her long enough to know she doesn't keep weight on off the grass. There is still a little devil on my shoulder wondering what the heck is wrong with her tho!
		
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It is a worry sometimes isn't it! The ex-racer I had a few years back used to drop off very quickly and it took a long time to work out a routine that was good for him. Like with yours though, essentially lots and lots of Dr Green with minimal exercise for a time.




FestiveFuzz said:



			Thanks guys. I think I just feel desperately sorry for him...he's such a sweet lad just seems a bit unloved but ultimately it seems everyone agrees he's in a pretty sorry state (I was worried I just had a warped sense of condition after my cobby boy who is a solid 4). 

To be honest the fact he's underweight and dehydrated is a solid red flag for me.
		
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Please don't buy him because you feel sorry for him. There's oodles of free/cheap horses about if you want to pity buy...no use wasting £3k on one when you'll need more £££ to get them right!
If your vet isn't shocked at his condition, I'll be surprised. Yes, some horses do drop off over winter, but their owners don't sell them in that condition (usually) and not for 3k. 
Maybe if your vet shows concern, you can say you'll have him but only for half of his asking price. I really really doubt anyone would pay 3k for him in that condition, so maybe they'd rather take 1.5k than lose a sale.


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## only_me (20 March 2016)

I wouldn't touch him. 
Not only is he not a schoolmaster (sounds a very basic all rounder tbh) he has poor conformation and odd muscle development with poor condition. 
From your pictures alone he looks awful, if fact imo he looks like a point to pointer that's been poorly looked after yet has run all season. Or a horse that has fallen, been on box rest for a long time & has been kept thin to be quiet when bringing back into work. 

I know you like him, but you need to get some basic facts about him - how long he has been in that condition, how much work has he done since at sales, what have they fed him to try and get weight on (if they have tried...) have they had him vetted, bloods checked, vaccine record & wormed him recently. Also ask how many people have tried him before you. 

If you are intent on getting him still, I would be getting the vet to do the full works - blood tested (priority), ulcer scoped, x-Rays (I know you want low level stuff one but if he has navicular or kissing spines then you won't be able to do that), worm count, teeth as well as a normal 5 stage. Might be more expensive but so is a horse that you can't ride.


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## alliwantforchristmas (20 March 2016)

poor, poor lad   what a difference to the pics when he was with his old owner.  

Have you asked them why he is so thin?  (sorry if you've answered that somewhere earlier and I missed it).  What do the other horses on the yard look like?

by the way, have you checked this dealer out on the dodgy dealers site on fb?


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## FestiveFuzz (20 March 2016)

alliwantforchristmas said:



			poor, poor lad   what a difference to the pics when he was with his old owner.  

Have you asked them why he is so thin?  (sorry if you've answered that somewhere earlier and I missed it).  What do the other horses on the yard look like?

by the way, have you checked this dealer out on the dodgy dealers site on fb?
		
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Apparently old owner bought a new horse and lost interest so he was just turned away. I suspect he's also stressed out at the moment as he seems a bit of a worrier. 

Have checked on the dodgy dealer site and apparently she's nothing but honest but yes, would worry about someone selling a horse in that condition.


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## meesha (20 March 2016)

Poor chap, don't walk away, run!!! Mine had come over from Ireland 6 weeks before ibought him was tbx and very fit having I suspected hunted a full season but was ideal weight and that was march last year.  What do the other horses on the dealer's yard look like? If worried contact whw. 

Such a shame he looks like a lovely person but may be unrideable when up to weight, if they are not keeping him that way intentionally God knows what health issues you would be buying !


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## Hepsibah (20 March 2016)

He looks very sad. 

I bought a similarly underweight warmblood several years ago. She had the same stripped out quarters and roached-looking back. She even had the goose-rumped jumper's bump you can see on this gelding. Feeding her was like chucking pennies into a well but she picked up immensely once she got on decent grazing. Her temperament didn't change at all. 
When she arrived.







After six months - happy to carry a nervous rider.








A year later - taking a teenager around a novice course.








If I was the one in your position, I would buy based on his performance and wouldn't hold his weight or his seller against him.


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## ester (20 March 2016)

The rest of what she has for sale looks pretty good, which is why I would worry about there being something quite wrong with this chap.


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## alliwantforchristmas (20 March 2016)

find out as much as you can through the vetting and then, if he passes, have a good chat with vet and call it ... either heart or head will win. 

Their story of him being chucked out in the field by his previous owner doesn't really wash ... they've had him long enough to build him up.  

did you get his passport and comp record clarified?

lovely transformation, Hepsibah!


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## FestiveFuzz (20 March 2016)

Got the passport details in the end but no real detail on competition record. I think ultimately my decision has been made now as there are too many question marks.


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## Goldenstar (20 March 2016)

Good call .
ONG those pictures poor boy .


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## alliwantforchristmas (20 March 2016)

sad but sensible x


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## honetpot (20 March 2016)

He looks like he is big horse, that looks small because he is so thin, with very short legs.
  I can understand why you want to buy him, but 3k seems very expensive. It will be interesting to see what the vet picks up and if the chip matches the passport.


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## FestiveFuzz (20 March 2016)

He's 16.2/16.3hh so a fairly big boy. I don't think I'm even going to go as far as vetting him as much as I'd like to hear what they have to say as I just don't think he's right and having shared pics with my yo she tends to agree.


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## ihatework (20 March 2016)

FestiveFuzz said:



			He's 16.2/16.3hh so a fairly big boy. I don't think I'm even going to go as far as vetting him as much as I'd like to hear what they have to say as I just don't think he's right and having shared pics with my yo she tends to agree.
		
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I wouldn't waste your money on a vetting. Walk quickly in the opposite direction.


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## BethH (20 March 2016)

So sad - he looks the sort you'd offer to take home for free as a companion.  He looks very uncomfortable, sad and depressed, what a heartbreaking picture, I can understand why you'd want to save him as I bet he is a real softie/nice person. But unless you have your own land to let him have time, I think buying him to use as a riding horse is a no no and it would take you a long time to build him up and fix what's wrong and even then it might not work.  I also don't like the way he is standing, he looks like a horse in pain, just miserable, I suspect at the very least his hocks are sore which may also be the reason for the buck.

I have to say as well that I think it's disgraceful he's owner has just dumped him and doesn't seem to care about what is happening to him, that is a horse in serious need of TLC, makes me want to cry - how selfish are some horse owners sometimes, they take but are incapable of giving back and putting right what they've made wrong.


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## Fun Times (20 March 2016)

I'm not sure I would take him even if he was offered to me for free to be honest, because I would bankrupt myself and break my heart trying to get him fixed.


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## FestiveFuzz (20 March 2016)

I know what you mean. If money were no object and I had my own land i'd take him anyway and stick him out to grass for a little while to see if it made a difference. He's a complete softie who just needs some TLC. It's sad as the pictures of him with his owner show a totally different horse...just wish I knew how he came to look the way he does now.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (20 March 2016)

I don't mean to sound like I am stating the obvious, and I completely agree with your decision as it is. (Despite the fact I feel sorry for him too) but dealers are people too, why can't you just walk in let them know you think his body condition is unacceptable, point out that you are no mug and that the story isn't washing, say that you are considering buying him if they can be can be honest about how he is the way he is.. If you think they are lying, or the story doesn't wash when you get the vet out (I would also probably mention that you know they lied about his eventing history) then you will walk away and let it be known to many people, the sorry state that they are trying to flog this horse in.


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## Amymay (20 March 2016)

Going totally against the grain here, but I think there's a lot to like him, and I'd lay money on a couple of months dr green turning him around (providing there are no underlying conditions).  I'd have him vetted.


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## RunToEarth (20 March 2016)

I just wouldn't spend my money with a dealer who thinks it is appropriate to sell a horse in that condition, let alone at £3k.


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## FlyingCircus (20 March 2016)

amymay said:



			Going totally against the grain here, but I think there's a lot to like him, and I'd lay money on a couple of months dr green turning him around (providing there are no underlying conditions).  I'd have him vetted.
		
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For 3k? Really?


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## Grinchmass (20 March 2016)

3k? Seriously? Is there a reason they have let that poor horse get into thar state? 
Sorry but he doesnt sound like much of a school master at the minute whilst hes skin and bone -  in all seriousnes whats he going to be like when hes fit and feeling well?


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## AdorableAlice (20 March 2016)

You don't need a vet.  The first photograph tells you he is unsound.


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## FestiveFuzz (20 March 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			You don't need a vet.  The first photograph tells you he is unsound.
		
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AA out of interest what makes you say that?


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## Amymay (20 March 2016)

FlyingCircus said:



			For 3k? Really?
		
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Buying any horse is a gamble, whether you pay £300 or £3000.

If the horse is what the op is looking for, is conformationally half decent and passes the vet why not?


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## Clodagh (20 March 2016)

FestiveFuzz said:



			AA out of interest what makes you say that?
		
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I know a million times less than AA but I would say he has hinds splayed out and straight under him, he is hurting somewhere.

Amymay, that hoerse isn't conformationally half decent though, is he?


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## AdorableAlice (20 March 2016)

FestiveFuzz said:



			AA out of interest what makes you say that?
		
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Shape of the back and stood under stance, plus on the picture from the rear there is uneven musculature.  The lad has done some miles.


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## Amymay (20 March 2016)

Clodagh said:



			Amymay, that hoerse isn't conformationally half decent though, is he?
		
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I don't know, I haven't seen any confo shots of him.


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## be positive (20 March 2016)

Clodagh said:



			I know a million times less than AA but I would say he has hinds splayed out and straight under him, he is hurting somewhere.

Amymay, that hoerse isn't conformationally half decent though, is he?
		
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He is half decent, it is the other half that gives concern, I also thought from the photo that he is very unlikely to be sound, he may trot up and appear to be but there is likely to be an issue causing such major muscle loss and unlevelness in his quarters, I think vetting would be a waste of money, best to move on and put him out of your mind.


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## Fun Times (20 March 2016)

I've just gone back and looked at the most recent photos and it actually breaks my heart to see a horse brought to this and still being sold as if there is nothing wrong, like he is just meant to bear it and carry on. You don't need to be an equine expert to see that poor lad is far from o.k. I actually feel disgusted by the dealer's approach to this sale.


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## TickyTavey (20 March 2016)

What a sorry horse. I can see why he's tugging at your heart strings. I think you've made the right decision to pass him by though. Just to add, I don't think 3k much for what you want, but way too much for this poor soul though :-(


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## be positive (20 March 2016)

I think everyone who is slating the sales livery yard may be being unfair, we do not know the whole story other than the owner bought a new horse and turned this one away, he was then sent to sales livery, it may well be that he was sent there looking dreadful and now looks better, the owner is possibly pushing for a quick sale to keep costs down, it can take months to get a horse up to weight and looking well once they have dropped off muscle, especially if they have an underlying problem, those months will eat into the value of any sale. 

The yard should have probably sent the horse back if it arrived looking poor but they may have thought it would pick up quickly once living in and in work, the owner may not be to blame but without knowing the whole story it is not fair to blame the dealer totally, the responsibility is still with the owner to keep an eye on what is going on while the horse is in livery .


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## Fun Times (20 March 2016)

I guess I am just surprised that a reputable dealer would be happy to put their name to a horse that looks that awful. Most of the decent dealers I know would not have presented him for sale unless and until his condition had significantly improved.


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## Grinchmass (20 March 2016)

be positive said:



			I think everyone who is slating the sales livery yard may be being unfair, we do not know the whole story other than the owner bought a new horse and turned this one away, he was then sent to sales livery, it may well be that he was sent there looking dreadful and now looks better, the owner is possibly pushing for a quick sale to keep costs down, it can take months to get a horse up to weight and looking well once they have dropped off muscle, especially if they have an underlying problem, those months will eat into the value of any sale. 

The yard should have probably sent the horse back if it arrived looking poor but they may have thought it would pick up quickly once living in and in work, the owner may not be to blame but without knowing the whole story it is not fair to blame the dealer totally, the responsibility is still with the owner to keep an eye on what is going on while the horse is in livery .
		
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About slating the sales yard - do you thin it is acceptable for a reputable sakes yard to take a horse in this condition on? They're obviously not too worried about their reputation - which speaks volumes in itself


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## be positive (20 March 2016)

Grinchmass said:



			About slating the sales yard - do you thin it is acceptable for a reputable sakes yard to take a horse in this condition on? They're obviously not too worried about their reputation - which speaks volumes in itself
		
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Probably not but we really don't know the whole situation, I have been to see horses looking as bad, lame, totally not as described over the years and some to the other extreme being obese, as for their reputation I don't know who they are but they may now be between a rock and a hard place financially and have to try and sell in order to get paid, if they have kept him for a couple of months the bill will be running up and the owner may be behind in paying. 
I wouldn't sell a horse in that condition and luckily I have never been sent one that poor but I have had them arrive lame, with sore backs, crap feet and with various other undeclared issues that required more time to fix than the owners were really prepared to pay for, I became much more cautious about taking sales liveries unless they were known to me as it can be expensive to invest in a horse with an owner unwilling to pay for the work, do you send it back and risk losing a months livery or keep going?? not always an easy clear cut decision, not everyone is as honest as the owners on here.


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## claracanter (20 March 2016)

I got really engrossed in this thread and have read the whole thing. OP I think walking away is the right thing but I feel for the poor horse. I also followed your other thread about the dressage horse.Good luck in your search for a new horse and do please keep us all posted


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## FestiveFuzz (20 March 2016)

Thanks again for all the advice offered on this thread. In honesty I don't think his unlevelness behind is as bad as the pic portrays (it is just a snapshot in time with a somewhat fidgety horse) however I agree something didn't look quite right when I loose schooled him earlier and whilst I'm gutted that he won't be coming home with me I know it is the right decision. I just wish I'd walked away sooner as I'm now worrying where he may end up. 

With regard to the yard, I wouldn't like to pass comment on their general conduct as I can only talk for the experience I have had with this one horse. Most others were out on the occasions I viewed the yard and those in had rugs on. I would absolutely hate for this thread to become something other than it was intended to be.


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## touchstone (20 March 2016)

He looks like he has something seriously wrong with him to me poor lad.  Heartbreaking às it is I think you have to walk away and are doing  the right thing by not buying.


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