# Livery yards and winter turnout?



## willowblack (15 November 2015)

Morning all!

Our YO closes the fields during winter and turnout is confined to indoor school or one field, they go out for an hour a day give or take because they are rotated. 

I have been there for 3 years, only went temporarily because I accidentally acquired too many ponies for the 2 and a bit acre field we have at home &#128540; And have never used a livery yard before then.

Is this common place at livery yards?

Thank you x X


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## Nativelover (15 November 2015)

I think it depends on whereabouts you are in the country. I grew up in the NE and there were no yards that restricted turnout, it was considered cruel to confine horses unless under veterinary care.

However I now live in the NW and have never known restrictions like it, one yard I know actually closes the fields for 9, yes 9, months of the year!!!!
But it also seems accepted over here, by the liveries and so the YO don't bother to offer any alternatives.


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## laura_nash (15 November 2015)

No, and I wouldn't keep a horse anywhere with those rules unless I was working it really hard (like hunting 4 times a week hard).

I have been at two livery yards in recent years.  One had seperate small winter turnout paddocks for each horse which were completely trashed and then rolled, reseeded etc in the spring.  They turned out all year, but did close the fields for a day or two in very bad weather with turnout in an outdoor school or on the path to the fields (which was surfaced) for an hour or two.

The second was at a farm and had plenty of good turnout all year around with the paddocks only getting a bit muddy at field gateways.


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## junglefairy (15 November 2015)

I don't think it's uncommon but it is cruel. You wouldn't keep a dog locked in a cage all day why on earth would you do it to a horse!? 

I don't accept when people say they have no choice, if you can't look after a horse properly then don't have one.


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## ILuvCowparsely (15 November 2015)

We are a small yard and have less land than horses, our land is VERY well maintained and we have loads of grass.  I would NEVER restrict my horses turnout so I could rest the fields as I don't need too as I always have two resting at anyone time.   IF and that is a big IF the land by some miracle stops coping then I would get rid of a livery or two.

We have been told we have one of the best grazing around and I do not want our reputation to get to "oh don't go there their grazing is cr4p "
   A field is a normal place for a horse to stretch his legs - eat- snooze and have fun.  Sorry I would find somewhere else.


  If this yard is worried about their grazing , then they ought to sit down and work out why it is not coping .  If it is the owner does not like fields getting trashes, then maybe they should think if a yard is what they want as winter does trash it to a degree but it bounces backs  after a few months


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## Goldenstar (15 November 2015)

junglefairy said:



			I don't think it's uncommon but it is cruel. You wouldn't keep a dog locked in a cage all day why on earth would you do it to a horse!? 

I don't accept when people say they have no choice, if you can't look after a horse properly then don't have one.
		
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Going to be a lot of horses going off for slaughter then because there's just not enough land attached to many livery stables to turnout all year round .
It's only going to get worse , we need to build lots and lots of housing and the parcels of land near to towns that make up many livery stables are going to get swallowed up by building .
Land close to towns is going to get more and more valuable and it's will get harder and harder  to find livery close to population centres.


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## Nativelover (15 November 2015)

What I have found with the yards that close the turnout, is that they also have next to no maintenance of the fields. I realise that it can be expensive but I can't be the only one who would be happy to pay higher livery for more turnout!!

I wonder what would happen if DEFRA and RSPCA etc enforced the 5 freedoms!!??


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## willowblack (15 November 2015)

I'm hoping ponies will come home very soon, house building is finished and stables are in progress now!

I've also acquired another field next door which is 5 acres and sloped so stays very dry during the winter.

We are in a very rural area but with not many livery yards at all.


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## laura_nash (15 November 2015)

Nativelover said:



			I wonder what would happen if DEFRA and RSPCA etc enforced the 5 freedoms!!??
		
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I wonder that too.  From the DEFRA Code of Practice for the Welfare of Horses, Ponies, Donkeys and their Hybrids:

3.1 Horses and ponies require adequate exercise,  or freedom to exercise and this will require time and effort from the horse owner or keeper. Most stabled horses will benefit  from daily turnout in the field to allow them to graze and socialise with other horses. This may have the added benefit of 
alleviating the risk of stable vices. If turnout is not feasible, stabled horses should receive appropriate exercise daily, unless contrary to veterinary advice. 

4.1 Horses are herd animals and prefer to live in social groups. Ideally they should be socialised with members of their own species but, where this is not possible, other animals may be used to provide company.

I guess it depends on interpretation (is an hour in a school "daily turnout in the field to allow them to graze and socialise with other horses", or "appropriate exercise daily"), but I would say that if a horse kept at a yard with these rules was not on veterinary recommended box rest and was not being exercised every day, or a youngster or retired horse was being kept there, then they would be in breach of the Animal Act for the "need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns".  Depending on the layout of the stables and whether the turnout was in pairs, they may also be in breach of the "need to be housed with, or apart, from other animals".


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## Walrus (15 November 2015)

junglefairy said:



			I don't think it's uncommon but it is cruel. You wouldn't keep a dog locked in a cage all day why on earth would you do it to a horse!? 

I don't accept when people say they have no choice, if you can't look after a horse properly then don't have one.
		
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Interesting comment. This is fairly common practice at yards near me. We have turnout in a sand paddock and also free use of a horsewalker as well as a floodlit all weather arena to try and compensate and provide some options.

I sometimes have to work away so I need to be on a yard that can care for my horse when I'm away. The yards that offer this round me all restrict turnout as we are flat low lying land which is liable to become very wet, very fast.

So my options are:

Manage with the facilities provided
Rent a field and abandon my horse when I work away or am stuck in a late meeting, also give up competing or riding over winter due to no facilities.
Sell my horse, probably to someone local who may or may not keep him at either of the above 2 options
Convince my OH to sell our house and move to a different area
PTS


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## Hokuspokus (15 November 2015)

I've never been to a yard without winter turnout and nor would I move to one. My current yard used to be good for winter turnout but has since increased in liveries and decreased in fields. We now have a rule that all horses come in at 2pm everyday to save the fields, even 12 if it's very wet. There is no option to turn out in school as it has no gates, and the sheer amount of horses means they'd hardly be out.  The 2pm bring In is not feasible at the weekends and I'm looking to move. New yard has turnout until you want to bring in , obviously with reason, not 9 at night ! They get out in all weathers , if the fields have really gone to muck they go in a specially made hard standing area.


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## Goldenstar (15 November 2015)

I don't think you can say it's always cruel to keep a horse without turnout .
I think it's less than ideal .
However you must provide lots of exercise if horses are kept without turnout.
It's a huge commitment for the owner and very difficult to do if you work unless you have help during the day .
If a yard has turnout pens and a walker and the horse is exercised properly you can give them what they need .
And some turnout I see is terrible just small mud filled paddocks that don't provide what a horse needs in terms of exercise either.
Retired and not in work young horses need decent turnout in large fields to have quality of life IMO .


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## Walrus (15 November 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Retired and not in work young horses need decent turnout in large fields to have quality of life IMO .
		
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I agree with this comment which is one of the reasons if I ever got another horse I specifically wouldn't buy an unbroken baby and when my current horse reaches retirement I know I will need to look further afield and maybe at some full or retirement livery options out of the area. But fingers crossed this is a long way off as he's only 10!


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## JillA (15 November 2015)

To me it says "We are overstocked but want to take your money anyway and we don't spend any of that money on maintaining our land". 
Lets face it you can build plenty of buildings to house animals but you can't create more land, the stocking rate should be governed by the acreage not the number of stables.


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## Goldenstar (15 November 2015)

JillA said:



			To me it says "We are overstocked but want to take your money anyway and we don't spend any of that money on maintaining our land". 
Lets face it you can build plenty of buildings to house animals but you can't create more land, the stocking rate should be governed by the acreage not the number of stables.
		
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Yes it should but the reality is that livery would then be way more expensive .
Probably about two thirds more .


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## MotherOfChickens (15 November 2015)

agree totally with GS, its not ideal but can be done well with a lot of effort. I would rather the horse was in full work with some company in a decent pen/school regularly (over the winter) than hock deep in mud in 1/4 acre which I have seen. In that extremely wet winter recently we all just did our best though!

I don't have enough land for my lot in the winter, its very wet here, so I rent extra. They are still in their summer field as it had plenty of grass. End of November though, they go onto their winter hill-not as big as last years but still 10 acres for two ponies and a small horse.


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## MotherOfChickens (15 November 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Yes it should but the reality is that livery would then be way more expensive .
Probably about two thirds more .
		
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maybe that wouldn't be the worst thing :/ might get messy in the interim though.


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## Littlebrownhorse (15 November 2015)

My yard has winter and summer paddocks. It is up to the owners to decide whether the horses go out and we are all aware that the paddocks will be trashed after a bit of wet weather. 

I always turn my horse out regardless of weather as he is much happier out even if it is a mud pit.

To some degree I think it depends on the temperament of the horse to what you can get away with, but I definitely wouldn't be able (or want) to keep mine on a yard without turnout. Turnout is so important


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## SO1 (15 November 2015)

I have never been on a yard that does not have all year round turnout, however I am in the South and it probably rains less is easier to main the winter grazing.

I do agree that with what someone has said earlier about a lot of yards near cities and towns closing and becoming developed on for housing, so more people will be needing to keep horses further from home on part or full livery because there are no options near their homes or more rural yards can offer more turnout.


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## zaminda (15 November 2015)

When I lived near London, the turnout was poor to non existent. I could not be persuaded to move back in that direction as the lack of land doesn't suit the way I keep my horses. I now live in the west country, and some yards do seem to restrict turnout massively, although I have never kept my horse on one as it isn't my way of doing things. 
I do feel that people need to take the happiness and well being of their horses more into consideration, they are herd animals that are best off out.


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## Meowy Catkin (15 November 2015)

I personally think that decent daily turnout is very important. However it doesn't have to be on grass and I would be happy with a proper all weather turnout area with water tough and hay feeder. A quick spin on a horsewalker or a run around the school while being mucked out is not good enough IMO.


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## JulesRules (15 November 2015)

For me turnout is my absolute number 1 priority for the wellbeing of my horse and I have recently moved to a new yard to improve winter turnout. 

With the current run of wet and windy weather the horses have only been having around 6 hours turnout a day, but to be honest they are happy to come in for some hay when the weather is miserable. On a nice day they will be out by 8 and in by dusk. I  summer they can stay out 24/7. 

Current yard has 15 horses and 30 acres so 2 acres per horse on average. Previous yard had half the land and double the horses, although there was a walker and yo allowed turn out in the school horse was only getting 2 to 3 hours turn out in the school in winter. 

I gave up off road hacking to give my horse what she needs. Horses need time to be horses in my opinion. If a horse spends 20 plus hours a day in a stable, and a couple of hours either being ridden / on horse walker etc when do they have time to spend time being a horse?


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## criso (15 November 2015)

It is quite common round here - combination of very high land prices and pressure for development plus heavy clay which doesn't stand up well to wet weather.  I choose to make it my priority when looking for yards and will compromise on other aspects.  Where turnout has been restricted mine really don't seem to cope very well and get very stressed.  If you didn't know them you might put it down to them being TBs and naturally sharp and excitable but as long as they get time out every day with other horses they really aren't.


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## EQUIDAE (15 November 2015)

Mine are out 24/7 (at home) - 5 under 15h and 16 acres. 

As the grazing gets poorer I feed hay in the field and I only bring in if they have been out for more than 48 hours in persisting rain, and even then it is just for a few hours to dry off and have an snooze.

I've gone about things slightly differently to 'normal' - I rent out my house and rent a property with land to live in. I'd rather pay the extra 'rent' to live in a nice house in the country and manage the horses as I wish, than pay the rent to a yard owner. It works out the same cost in this setup as it would for me to have one on part livery and me living in the town. And that's not even factoring in fuel costs and travel time.


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## JillA (15 November 2015)

That's a really god idea EQUIDAE, I can see how it might work for lots of people


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## Pearlsasinger (15 November 2015)

JillA said:



			To me it says "We are overstocked but want to take your money anyway and we don't spend any of that money on maintaining our land". 
Lets face it you can build plenty of buildings to house animals but you can't create more land, the stocking rate should be governed by the acreage not the number of stables.
		
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I agree!

I think that livery yards should HAVE to be licensed in the same way as RS.  Yes, it would put some people off taking liveries but tbh, that might not be a bad thing.  Some YO really shouldn't be looking after other people's horses.  And yes, some horse-owners might sell up but imo it is far too easy to just buy a horse/pony with very little knowledge/experience and stick it on livery with somone who knows little more.


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## lannerch (15 November 2015)

I am cruel my horse is at a livery yard where winter turnout is an all weather arena., and a stint in the walker daily.

No the yard is not overstocked, yes the fields are maintained and pooh picked, and yes the ground is incredibly clay so gets poached very quickly .

And just before turnout in the fields ceases and the grass has dropped to be honest most of the horses after an hour stand at the entrance waiting to come in!


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## whiteflower (15 November 2015)

i think sometimes there has to be some compromise. mine are out 24/7 8 months of the year, however for 4 months of the year they are out between 2 and 6 hours daily with company, depending on how wet it is. they get out every day but not for long but that then allows the fields to survive the worst months so they are in good condition for the 8 months they are out all the time.
it takes a lot of time and money to maintain good pasture  so for me as long as they are out for a bit each day im prepared to compromise for 16 weeks of the year. im on heavy clay so if i let them trash it the summer grazing would be affected. mine are calm and happy going out for a few hours to socialise, the fields are not trashed so they eat whilst out rather than hoon around in deep sticky mud.


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## elliefiz (15 November 2015)

lannerch said:



			And just before turnout in the fields ceases and the grass has dropped to be honest most of the horses after an hour stand at the entrance waiting to come in!
		
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This is an excuse everyone seems to trot out when they have horses that spend lots of time in the stables. The horses don't "want" to be out. Maybe if they are standing in mud in a tiny paddock with no grass and no hay put in, then yes they will "want" to come in as they associate it with coming in and being fed hay or hard feed as assume most don't leave a horse standing in with no forage. But with sufficient space and something to eat, most horses won't choose to come in. I have 6 horses on 12 acres, they have grazed it all summer so they will move to winter grazing soon. They still have grass in it and they are fed a bale of hay a day up the top of the field, well away from the gate. They are out 8-10 hours a day and not once will you see them standing at the gateway to come in until they are called at night. They move around a lot, pick at the grass or up at the hay bale and as a result are super chilled out and actually get to be "horses". Too many yards have not enough turnout for the number of horses they have. In my eyes it's cruel. If I came on here and said I shut my dog up for 22 hours a day in a room I would get abuse heaped upon me. Not sure what makes it ok to do it to a horse whose very nature means it needs space to move around and other animals to socialise with. Too many people put their own needs before their horses sadly.


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## ShadowHunter (15 November 2015)

Daily turnout is a basic requirement and i don't understand why people settle for no turnout for months. Our land is clay based and is currently turing into mud in places but i wouldn't dream of keeping her in for days unless it snows heavy like it did a few years ago. I have one horse and 10 sheep on 4 acres, soon to be 2 horses come January. Too many yards have not enough land for the amount of horses, its becoming more about how much money they can get rather than the welfare of the horses.


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## kimberleigh (15 November 2015)

I couldn't possibly stay somewhere where my horse couldn't have daily turnout at grass. 

I grew up in South Devon where every yard I was ever at offered 24/7 turnout 365 days a year!

I now live in the East Midlands and most yards I've came across allow full daily turnout with the horses coming in overnight during the worst winter months. 

My lad is currently at a private yard where they are out with great grazing for around 8-10 hours a day. If there has been days of relentless rain they will stay in for an odd day here and there but can go out in the school and have use of the horse walker so they aren't cooped up indoors. 

To me allowing horses the space and time to just be horses is all important. My TB becomes entirely unmanageable if he doesn't get enough turnout and is a much happier chap when kept more naturally


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## conniegirl (15 November 2015)

I think no turn out is cruel as well.
We are in the north east, my yard is on heavy clay and low lying however the yard owner has invested heavily in drainage for the fields and we have 24/7 turnout in summer and at least 8 hours a day turnout in winter. We only have one patch of mud on the entire farm and non in the paddocks, the horses always want out and we have far too much grass even now!
Last winter horses spent a total of 3 days in due to the weather and they were all individual days to give time for flooding to subside (24hrs is all it takes due to the drainage)


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## atropa (15 November 2015)

I personally wouldn't livery at a yard where there was no winter turnout, I'd constantly feel guilty about my horse being cooped up in her stable. Turnout is so important for a horse's mental, physical and social wellbeing. I wouldn't mind hardcore turnout in winter though.
Mine is currently out from 8.30 until around 6.30 every day, on heavy clay in very wet Scotland. High traffic areas of our fields are very wet, muddy and poached, but there is still decent grass and plenty of drier areas. Nobody really hangs around the gate waiting to come in as of yet.


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## lewis2015 (15 November 2015)

I recently left a livery yard due to the restricted turnout in winter - they were only allowed turnout in TINY 'paddocks' (I would call them pens) that were, no exaggeration, the size of a small garden. They were initially out in pairs but it was the last straw for me when the YO actually suggested putting FOUR large 16hh+ horses in one of these together. It would have been ridiculously dangerous. My horse has always had quirks but his behaviour whilst at this yard became unmanageable and he was becoming unrideable as he had so much pent up energy. YO actually had the cheek to call my horse 'unruly' when it was her turnout restrictions that were worsening his behaviour. He's now on a yard that has daytime winter turnout in a proper field, and although he's always keen to come in overnight and it does turn into a mud bog, I'd rather that than have him in a tiny pen again!


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## wench (15 November 2015)

I always love these types of threads... There's always "holier than thou" type comments. Every horse owner and yard is different, so you have to work with what you have!


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## JillA (15 November 2015)

wench said:



			I always love these types of threads... There's always "holier than thou" type comments. Every horse owner and yard is different, so you have to work with what you have!
		
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Or better still vote with your feet and leave the non turnout yards to those whose horses can cope. Personally quite apart from the horse's need to move and graze and socialise, I would hate to have to keep clean a stable which doesn't get a whole day to air.


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## Tiddlypom (15 November 2015)

I have in the past kept a horse at DIY livery with restricted year round turnout (1 hour per day in the winter, 1.5 hours a day in the summer). This was common in the area (the Wirral).

Whilst this is not ideal, in practice it worked very well. The horses were all happy and settled, but they were all in medium to hard work. There was excellent and varied hacking, too.

Restricted turnout certainly wouldn't suit a horse that wasn't being ridden, or was in light work.

BTW I favour 24/7 turnout, but accept that in some areas it may not be practical.


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## lannerch (15 November 2015)

wench said:



			I always love these types of threads... There's always "holier than thou" type comments. Every horse owner and yard is different, so you have to work with what you have!
		
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Spot on! And that's the bit I really find irritating on this thread . who has the right to judge someone on the quality and happiness of their horse just on the basis of whether it does or does not get turned out in a field in winter! 

Sometimes for some horses turning out even for just an hour in a deep clay saturated field can result in disaster. Mine fits this catogory I failed to mention that in my previous post as I think that no turnout as long as the horse gets out and about daily is fed and warm then your have a happy horse.


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## Bertolie (15 November 2015)

Easy to say "vote with your feet" but may not be that easy in reality! I keep my horses on a DIY yard near my house, I don't drive. There are no yards within walking distance that allow 24/7/365 turnout.  We have individual paddocks but my two horses share so I effectively have two small paddocks. We are on heavy clay and my winter paddock is an old orchard, which is fab for shelter but the grass does not grow that well due to shade and tree roots. We manage our paddocks ourselves, so can turnout whenever we want, but after a few days of rain the paddock will try to sloppy mud. I therefore bring them in at night during winter and turn out most days for 4-8 hours. However there are some days when, to ensure turnout for as long as possible during winter, they will have to stay in for a few days. As long as they have plenty of hay and a chance to stretch their legs, they tolerate this arrangement very well.


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## conniegirl (15 November 2015)

Bertolie said:



			Easy to say "vote with your feet" but may not be that easy in reality! I keep my horses on a DIY yard near my house, I don't drive. There are no yards within walking distance that allow 24/7/365 turnout.  We have individual paddocks but my two horses share so I effectively have two small paddocks. We are on heavy clay and my winter paddock is an old orchard, which is fab for shelter but the grass does not grow that well due to shade and tree roots. We manage our paddocks ourselves, so can turnout whenever we want, but after a few days of rain the paddock will try to sloppy mud. I therefore bring them in at night during winter and turn out most days for 4-8 hours. However there are some days when, to ensure turnout for as long as possible during winter, they will have to stay in for a few days. As long as they have plenty of hay and a chance to stretch their legs, they tolerate this arrangement very well.
		
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you could still vote with your feet by either learning to drive so you can access the better yards or get a bike like one of the ladies at my yard does, she doesn't drive but keeps her horse a 30 min drive from her house, takes her about 45mins to cycle.


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## Goldenstar (15 November 2015)

It's a massive assumption that there are always better choices of yards .
In some areas there just is not .
Land use is going to get tighter and tighter and horses type amenity use will get squeezed .


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## pippixox (15 November 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			It's a massive assumption that there are always better choices of yards .
In some areas there just is not .
Land use is going to get tighter and tighter and horses type amenity use will get squeezed .
		
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 agree
also although a lot of people say they would always put turn out first over other facilities at a yard, if you do compete or like schooling you could easily be swayed by an all-weather flood lit arena, at a yard with less grazing, versus a yard with great grazing, but no options to ride over the winter
I rent land, about 8-10 acres with 4 horses, but it does get wet and not great quality grass. however, despite great land, facilities wise we have no school or floodlights. so I do just accept no riding except sundays from mid-october. 
people pay a lot for their horses and want to enjoy them, and compromises pretty much always have to be made somewhere.


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## fishy (15 November 2015)

Some of these comments annoy me! In an ideal world I'd love my horses to live out on a paradise track system, have an indoor and excellent off road hacking! Unfortunately I live in the real world and this means restricted winter turnout.  I've managed for 7 years with 3 different horses. It's hard and yes I feel guilty but I'm not about to give up horses. Mine are exercised everyday and turned out as often as the can be.   As for renting a field or small yard in my area I'd have more luck finding rocking horse poo!!!


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## Bertolie (15 November 2015)

conniegirl said:



			you could still vote with your feet by either learning to drive so you can access the better yards or get a bike like one of the ladies at my yard does, she doesn't drive but keeps her horse a 30 min drive from her house, takes her about 45mins to cycle.
		
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I'm 53 years old and not about to start learning to drive at my age! The nearest yard that would allow unrestricted winter turnout would take me around an hour to cycle to. I leave for work at 7am and get home at 6pm. I would need to leave home at 4 am to be able to cycle to the yard, do my chores, and get back home to get ready for work. I wouldn't get to the yard in the evening until gone 7pm and would be lucky to be home again by 9am.  All this would have to be done in the dark, cycling round quiet unlit country lanes!  Also,  this yard does not have a school so horses wouldnt be ridden during the week. All for the sake of not having my horses in their stables for a few days here and there?


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## Gazen (15 November 2015)

I moved from my last yard because the horses could not go out over winter, not because of yard rules, but because it was too dangerous as you were walking 300m down a track where the mud was over your ankles and the gateways were so deep that it was nearly up to your knees.  
The new yard has separate grazing for winter and summer.  The winter turnout is limited to daylight hours only, but that is better than 0 hours.


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## Pearlsasinger (15 November 2015)

pippixox said:



			people pay a lot for their horses and want to enjoy them, and compromises pretty much always have to be made somewhere.
		
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Unfortunately it seems to be that it is the horse which is most affected by the compromise, rather than the owner in too many cases.


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## Cocorules (15 November 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Unfortunately it seems to be that it is the horse which is most affected by the compromise, rather than the owner in too many cases.
		
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This 

With an ever increasing human population there will be less land available for other species including horses.  Therefore there either has to be fewer horses or they have to be kept in situations where they get less movement.  This is an issue for a species designed to move for the majority of the day far more so than humans.


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## junglefairy (15 November 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Unfortunately it seems to be that it is the horse which is most affected by the compromise, rather than the owner in too many cases.
		
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This. And To the poster that said threads like this annoy them, being locked in a stable for 22 hours a day 5 months of the year probably annoys the poor horse more.


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## Luci07 (15 November 2015)

I'm with GS. More and more yards are closing with the changes in planning laws and being developed as houses. I am in Surrey and see constant pressure the try to build houses in ridiculous places (including the field behind our houses...they tried to get permission for a housing estate...just after we had had the worst floods in over 40 years and 2/3 of my road were badly flooded). Sometimes compromises do have to be made but I do wonder at the future of livery yards in general.  I have chosen to keep my horse in over the weekend and will probably do so for a couple more days as I am trying to get of mud fever but he is normally out 8-4. No way I am going to try to bring him in after dark as our path up is clay and horribly muddy...!


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## fishy (15 November 2015)

Junglefairy I agree I'm sure my horses are probably more annoyed than me about it, but unfortunately its the norm where I am.  I have looked at moving but I'd be travelling over an hour each way twice a day, juggling work and family.  So should I just sell them?  I've had horses for over 30 years it's in my blood I can't just give up because I have limited winter turnout &#128532;.


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## junglefairy (15 November 2015)

fishy said:



			Junglefairy I agree I'm sure my horses are probably more annoyed than me about it, but unfortunately its the norm where I am.  I have looked at moving but I'd be travelling over an hour each way twice a day, juggling work and family.  So should I just sell them?  I've had horses for over 30 years it's in my blood I can't just give up because I have limited winter turnout &#128532;.
		
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I can somewhat empathise, horses are in my blood too. I recently spent 4 years horseless because I didn't live somewhere with suitable livery. I chose to move to an area where I could get 24/7 turnout. Unfortunately that means a 1.5 hour each way daily commute and 20 minute drive to the yard. But I believe that if I choose to keep a horse then it is my moral obligation to provide it with suitable care.


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## Cortez (15 November 2015)

Horses are adaptable creatures; there are many places where keeping horses stabled or penned is the norm, and the horses are perfectly happy with this arrangement, just as there are horses who don't like being out. Horses are not always best managed with endless access to pasture (see many, many threads on here about overweight, mud fever, sweet itch, etc.), or with being out in muddy slop holes. As long as they have adequate exercise I have no problem with horses being kept in stables, but I fear this is perhaps the real problem; people who don't have the necessary time or motivation to give horses the work they need.


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## Tiddlypom (15 November 2015)

^^^ Cortez, glad you've posted .  Horses can adapt to minimal turnout, but they must be adequately exercised.


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## EventingMum (15 November 2015)

Some of us unfortunately live in very wet areas with predominately clay soils so can't have 24/7 turnout year round. My yards has daily turnout except in exceptional conditions but they are in overnight during Winter. On the odd days they can't go out they go on the walker and also have a run around in a school. It's the best we can do.


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## gunnergundog (15 November 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			^^^ Cortez, glad you've posted .  Horses can adapt to minimal turnout, but they must be adequately exercised.
		
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The problem appears to me to be that most people nowadays don't seem to be aware of the quantity/quality/intensity of exercise that a horse requires/is capable of.


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## smellsofhorse (15 November 2015)

I've heard it is quite common for some livery yards to have very limited turnout in winter or none at all.
I think it depends on the area as some drain better etc.

I would never stay long term on a yard like this though.
Turnout ls a massive thing for me.


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## laura_nash (15 November 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			^^^ Cortez, glad you've posted .  Horses can adapt to minimal turnout, but they must be adequately exercised.
		
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I absolutely agree.  When I was at college (some years ago) the horses were only turned out at the weekend and for the summer holiday.  They were all happy and settled.  They had a minimum of 2 hrs exercise every day, usually more and mostly intensive schooling or jumping, and in between were often used being used for stable management or horse care demo's or practice.  They also had some "twin" stables where pair bonds could be stabled with only had a low wall between and could interact, groom etc.  The horses were all older ex-competition horses, they did also try to have a youngster around so they could show students how to handle them but they only stayed for a few weeks each.

Unless a livery yard is only full livery (including exercise), working livery, or a specialist yard of some other kind where all the horses are in full work I still thinks its fundamentally wrong for a YO to only offer 1 hours turnout all through winter.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (15 November 2015)

I would not livery at a yard without adequate daily turnout. Exercise is all very good but turnout is the horses 'free time'. A chance to be a horse without restraints. Yes, horses may accept a routine that is contrary to their instincts , but that isn't necessarily  an indication of their contentment.


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## lewis2015 (15 November 2015)

gunnergundog said:



			The problem appears to me to be that most people nowadays don't seem to be aware of the quantity/quality/intensity of exercise that a horse requires/is capable of.
		
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Agree. And what about the social/ psychological benefits of turnout? Horses don't get 'social' time from being ridden/ exercised.


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## lewis2015 (15 November 2015)

ChesnutsRoasting said:



			I would not livery at a yard without adequate daily turnout. Exercise is all very good but turnout is the horses 'free time'. A chance to be a horse without restraints. Yes, horses may accept a routine that is contrary to their instincts , but that isn't necessarily  an indication of their contentment.
		
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My thoughts exactly!  You put it much better than I could.


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## L&M (15 November 2015)

Having lost the luxury of my own land (and therefore my own rules!) I have my two now on livery.

I must admit I had reservations as the yard I am at has fantastic 24/7 summer paddocks, has only approx. 1/2 acre per horse for winter turn out. We are told we can do what we want with our allotted paddocks, but if they get trashed, there are no other alternatives. However these winter 'patches' are rested all summer and currently knee high in grass.

Therefore I have adopted a routine for my 2 whereby they are turned out for a max of 2 hrs in the morning, regardless of weather. They then come in for a net and exercise after lunch so breaks up their day. I am lucky enough to work part time, so can fit this regime around my work patterns.

I have to say I am pleasantly surprised how they are coping, having been used to all day turnout in previous winters. But they seem quite happy - the haylage is of good quality, and being a busy yard, get a lot of entertainment during the day. Their temperaments have not changed and are still sensible to turn out and exercise, and hopefully by keeping them in this regime, their paddocks will still have grass by the end of winter so not trudging around in a mud bath.

We also have access to a concrete yard for turn out, good hacking and an indoor school to exercise in, so tbh think this is adequate, if not ideal.

However my OH has his 3 horses on his own land. They are turned out all day, and already their paddocks are a mud bath with little grass so they need hay in the field every day, with the horses desparate to come in on his return from work.

I think it is a matter of finding a yard that suits individual horses and owners, but appreciate this is easier said than done!


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## Slightly Foxed (15 November 2015)

I'm on heavy clay soil which turns into a bog at the first sniff of rain. I have summer and winter paddocks. I know that the winter paddocks will be trashed by January. They each have 20 x 10m hard standing just behind the gates on which we put hay in the winter. They are harrowed and re-seeded come the spring.

Yes it's expensive, but it's a lovely sight to see the horses out and gambolling about when they come out of their stables in the morning (so long as they don't pull off a shoe or tweak a tendon in the mud of course!)


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## lannerch (15 November 2015)

ChesnutsRoasting said:



			I would not livery at a yard without adequate daily turnout. Exercise is all very good but turnout is the horses 'free time'. A chance to be a horse without restraints. Yes, horses may accept a routine that is contrary to their instincts , but that isn't necessarily  an indication of their contentment.
		
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Agree But that daily turnout is not necessarily a field .

And to those that say if you can't find a yard with all year field turnout them you shouldn't keep one now your becoming just ridiculous.

I keep my horse to ride , how selfish he's also my pet and lives better than I do but fundamentally I have him to ride it is my hobby, which also means to me a livery yards facilities are more important to me than all year FIELD turnout. 

If I couldn't ride I wouldn't have a horse that doesn't mean I get rid of him as soon as he's lame he's recently been on over a year of vetinerary enforced box rest I spent thousands on his rehab. 

Also are all those who think it is so cruel vegans? A lot of the milk we get are now from barn kept dairy cows 365 days a year, the rest nearly all spend the winter months you've guessed it in a barn!


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## Enfys (16 November 2015)

ShadowHunter said:



			Daily turnout is a basic requirement and i don't understand why people settle for no turnout for months. Our land is clay based and is currently turing into mud in places but i wouldn't dream of keeping her in for days unless it snows heavy like it did a few years ago.
		
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  I agree that daily turnout of some sort is a basic requirement, but having had to cope with clay for years I would never do it again. My horses didn't go out,  they were ridden and had turnout in the school.  
Snow on the other hand I just don't get, as long as the ground is frozen, and access is safe ( and that only takes a little fore thought) 
then why keep horses in? They enjoy snow,  it is far kinder to legs than sucking mud for a start.


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## Enfys (16 November 2015)

wench said:



			I always love these types of threads... There's always "holier than thou" type comments. Every horse owner and yard is different, so you have to work with what you have!
		
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 Absolutely . Ideal worlds and all that.


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## unicornystar (16 November 2015)

There is absolutely no excuse for horses not to have at least 8 hours turnout.  Apart from the respiratory issues you may be building up for years down the line, the majority (not all I agree) of horses need to go out unless in very hard daily work.

I have two acres of field.  2 geldings and two miniatures.  The land is electric fenced into two smaller paddocks for minis, and two larger fields for horses.  One of each of these is on rest for spring.  The other two are used for 24/7 turnout and nice and muddy.  The truth is it is going to get muddier and as long as you supplement the grass which has no value anyway for forage, there is no reason those horses should suffer being in all the time.

By spring they will go onto the rested paddocks and it will take maximum of around 8/9 weeks for those fields to get on their way to recovery.  At the very worst I may have to sprinkle a little seed in the "haying area" which is the worst muddy area.

Surely even if yards provided daily turnout in a mud area with forage this has to be better than being holed up in a cage for hours.

I am no fluffy bunny hugger but having seen how much my previously stabled at night horse loves being feral 24/7 I do look at things in a very different way now.

By turnout I don't mean a field either, any area that they can stretch and mooch and nibble some hay etc and just be "out" in the fresh air....

Livery yard owners should be prepared to sacrifice one area at least for turnout or not have as many horses.  Just my two penneth, each to their own but I wouldn't keep my horse like that.


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## unicornystar (16 November 2015)

Turnout does not have to be a field, any area where they can stretch their legs will do!


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## Goldenstar (16 November 2015)

unicornystar said:



			There is absolutely no excuse for horses not to have at least 8 hours turnout.  Apart from the respiratory issues you may be building up for years down the line, the majority (not all I agree) of horses need to go out unless in very hard daily work.

I have two acres of field.  2 geldings and two miniatures.  The land is electric fenced into two smaller paddocks for minis, and two larger fields for horses.  One of each of these is on rest for spring.  The other two are used for 24/7 turnout and nice and muddy.  The truth is it is going to get muddier and as long as you supplement the grass which has no value anyway for forage, there is no reason those horses should suffer being in all the time.

By spring they will go onto the rested paddocks and it will take maximum of around 8/9 weeks for those fields to get on their way to recovery.  At the very worst I may have to sprinkle a little seed in the "haying area" which is the worst muddy area.

Surely even if yards provided daily turnout in a mud area with forage this has to be better than being holed up in a cage for hours.

I am no fluffy bunny hugger but having seen how much my previously stabled at night horse loves being feral 24/7 I do look at things in a very different way now.

By turnout I don't mean a field either, any area that they can stretch and mooch and nibble some hay etc and just be "out" in the fresh air....

Livery yard owners should be prepared to sacrifice one area at least for turnout or not have as many horses.  Just my two penneth, each to their own but I wouldn't keep my horse like that.
		
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How do you exercise your horses properly and give them eight hours turnout a day while the daylight is at it's shortest .
When do you clip ,care for their feet bath them my excuse for not having horses turned out eight hours a day in mid winter is that I have horses to use them and spend time with them not to watch them standing in the mud .
That means three hours a day in mid winter in a seven acre paddock not in a tiny paddock which I consider entirely unfair on horses in bad weather .
But if the yards don't have the space they don't have the space they magic up more land .
Yes it would be better if yards with little land had fewer cilents and charged much more but what's going to happen to all the homeless horses belonging to the people who can't or won't pay more ?
The market is setting the price for livery .


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## unicornystar (16 November 2015)

It doesn't HAVE to be 8 hours turnout, but some is better than none, two hours is unacceptable unless you have a horse (and I have previously) who loves being in!

I clip at weekends on my driveway, no yard facilities at home, they get their feet picked and basic "care" daily in a field under the shelter....

Exercise, when and if I can squeeze it in, no school so hacking is only option and because they are out 24/7 they pretty much keep themselves fit.  However, I have to forgoe competing over the winter due to this, but the horses come first, not my needs. If I wanted to compete they would be in  a lot more and that would be for my benefit not theirs.......my convenience.  Most horses will adapt and tolerate it, they won't say "I'm unhappy" but having seen the transformation this year in my own who now doesn't WANT to be stabled, literally, it has really opened my eyes.

Bath them?? Aha!! I have been known to get the hose out before a dressage competition during winter, but clipping mostly suffices the very worst and good old elbow grease as in grooming?

This is coming from someone who happily stabled their horse 23 hours of the day in previous years as it was what I had available at the time, I would never do it again though and to be honest, current horse would be like a timebomb if he didn't get the turnout he does.

If you are managing to exercise your horses for minimum 2 hours a day and they are in the rest of the time, that has to be better than being stuck in doing no exercise, it is just not the life I would choose for any horse I own now.

Am I hating the MUD YES! but to look out the window and see my horses happy being out and playing...priceless - maybe it is because I actually see them all the time I am at home that it has given me this outlook?? when I liveried I went home and couldn't see them so was unaware for most hours of the day of their mood, when I saw them they looked happy, probably as it was dinner time.....? Perhaps? who knows.


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## Goldenstar (16 November 2015)

unicornystar said:



			It doesn't HAVE to be 8 hours turnout, but some is better than none, two hours is unacceptable unless you have a horse (and I have previously) who loves being in!

I clip at weekends on my driveway, no yard facilities at home, they get their feet picked and basic "care" daily in a field under the shelter....

Exercise, when and if I can squeeze it in, no school so hacking is only option and because they are out 24/7 they pretty much keep themselves fit.  However, I have to forgoe competing over the winter due to this, but the horses come first, not my needs. If I wanted to compete they would be in  a lot more and that would be for my benefit not theirs.......my convenience.  Most horses will adapt and tolerate it, they won't say "I'm unhappy" but having seen the transformation this year in my own who now doesn't WANT to be stabled, literally, it has really opened my eyes.

Bath them?? Aha!! I have been known to get the hose out before a dressage competition during winter, but clipping mostly suffices the very worst and good old elbow grease as in grooming?

This is coming from someone who happily stabled their horse 23 hours of the day in previous years as it was what I had available at the time, I would never do it again though and to be honest, current horse would be like a timebomb if he didn't get the turnout he does.

If you are managing to exercise your horses for minimum 2 hours a day and they are in the rest of the time, that has to be better than being stuck in doing no exercise, it is just not the life I would choose for any horse I own now.

Am I hating the MUD YES! but to look out the window and see my horses happy being out and playing...priceless - maybe it is because I actually see them all the time I am at home that it has given me this outlook?? when I liveried I went home and couldn't see them so was unaware for most hours of the day of their mood, when I saw them they looked happy, probably as it was dinner time.....? Perhaps? who knows.
		
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Your opening sentence in your last post was .
There's is absolutely no excuse for horses not to have at least eight hours turnout .
No wiggle room with that statement .
No excuse so for most people that means the stabled horse has to be exercised in the dark perhaps or do you choose between exercising and say clipping to get the eight hours or do you turnout out or do you clip at night ? What does a parent do with their children while they are out clipping at night so the horse can have the day time turnout .
You just can't make a sweeping statement like that when people are fitting horses in to a life with work,  family and severely restricted daylight hours and many people having to drive a fair distance to get to their horse .


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## unicornystar (16 November 2015)

Goldenstar, I choose not to compete during the winter so I don't have to worry about exercise, that's my choice,hence it is no biggy if I don't hack.

I prefer mine to be out for at least 8 hours, as it is they WANT to be out 24/7 much to my dismay in the sheeting rain and wind.....!! and mud.

I do choose between exercising and clipping, there are weekends for clipping and other jobs that need doing in the light.  Jeez I muck pick in the dark with a head lamp!   Light hours as you say are precious.

I have a child too, you make arrangements?! share duties with likeminded horsey friends with kids, take kids with you....I was a single parent for many years with daughter in a sling trying to do jobs at the yard, not "PC" but hey, I got stuff done.

I work full time, I don't sit around each day on my backside.

You make it sound like clipping is a weekly thing?! - should only be maximum 3/4 clips required surely in a winter season or am I missing something?

Exercise in the dark, yes I have schooled previously in car headlights and I bet I am not alone!

I can make that statement as it was how I FEEL, no-one has to agree but recent veterinary research has proven the amount of respiratory issues being caused by stabling horses has increased in recent years no matter how clean our stables are etc, as an owner of a 24 year old pony with severe COPD I sat up and took notice, again my choice....

Driving a fair distance, move horse then! - you have to find somewhere that fits as you well know, we all have to prioritise what is important to us as individual horse owners, however for me PERSONALLY having my horses in all the time for 6 months of the year is no life (unless you have a wimp of a horse who loves living in as I have previously stated - but I don't believe most horses are like this).

I have done  the driving here and there and running myself ragged, whilst bringing up a child on my own and managing several horses and dogs, I am not rich and I chose to bring my horses to where I live for financial reasons and also their well being, I am lucky this I realise, but I would even consider moving home if it meant a better way of life for my animals.....

I stand by my at least 8 hours for "normal horses" for downtime, not necessarily in a field but in a school a yard, whatever, chance to be a horse, smell and touch other horses and just chill, I've done the "my horse is perfectly fine living in" along with many, but I now realise he probably wasn't fine at all just tolerant of my needs and choices like most horses are.  This is my opinion remember, I didn't say anyone had to agree, I do believe this is a forum?

I really don't believe for one minute that anyone who has their horse in 24/7 doesn't love and care for it and meet all it's basic needs, other than turnout with others, I am quite sure most are lavished with expense and "care", I've done it!! - but horses are designed for mud and water, not to be kept "pretty" and "tucked in" we all so often put our human values on them, oh "they must be cold and fed up", we wash them within an inch of their lives because they are muddy (hands up I've been guilty of this too in the past lol), but horses are so amenable how are we to know if they are "happy" or "sad" or it affects them...yes we all know our animals but truly, how can we know....?


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## conniegirl (16 November 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Your opening sentence in your last post was .
There's is absolutely no excuse for horses not to have at least eight hours turnout .
No wiggle room with that statement .
No excuse so for most people that means the stabled horse has to be exercised in the dark perhaps or do you choose between exercising and say clipping to get the eight hours or do you turnout out or do you clip at night ? What does a parent do with their children while they are out clipping at night so the horse can have the day time turnout .
You just can't make a sweeping statement like that when people are fitting horses in to a life with work,  family and severely restricted daylight hours and many people having to drive a fair distance to get to their horse .
		
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Clip and ride under lights! No need for daylight just some good bulbs!

I clip at weekends anyway as that's when I have sufficient time to do so.
I pay my yard owner to put out and bring in, that means horses get out early and come in just before dark. I then ride in the school under the floodlights.

I personally wouldn't go so far as a minimum of 8 but would not stable my horse anywhere where they couldn't get out for at least 6 hours every day.


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## unicornystar (16 November 2015)

Fact - and this is what leads me to feel the way I do...

Endotoxin levels at pasture are widely varied, but exposure in stables was approximately eight times higher than what outdoor horses were inhaling.  8 TIMES HIGHER and that is just coming in at night, think about the exposure to your horses lungs in 22 hours???  It doesn't matter what bedding you use, although they say deep litter is actually worse for ammonia levels, as an owner with a COPD pony caused probably by many years of stabling and going away to comps for weekends this is why turnout is important for me personally....I don't want my youngster with bad lungs at the age of 10!


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## ILuvCowparsely (16 November 2015)

IME turning out in a school is not ideal as once the horse has rolled and had a quick hooley, there is nothing left to do.  There is no excuse if properly managed that a field cannot be available  to turnout, if you maintain the land and divide into smaller paddocks so you always have some rested, no matter if you have a few more horses to acres.  This is based on part time livery or full where the land is not grazed 24.7.  If your land is not coping with horses out full time then maybe rethink whether to change from grass to diy or part/full.



  Some land copes with more horses to land, others types does not .. depending on what part of the country or soil you have.   Sadly some YO are greedy and shove too many horses out in the field to earn themselves more money.    Also some worry so much about how the grass looks and do not want it trashed - fair enough but are you maintaining the fields correctly?? rotating/weedkilling/ fertilizing-Dee pooh ??.


  If the YO thinks the fields will be trashed then I wonder how many actual horses are being turnout in that field and for how long!   Come the spring the fields recover if rolled etc.

Why do some YO / YM put their fields in front of the horses welfare or pleasure or their livery owners worries???   or the prettiness of how the fields look!!  Not the way it should be..........................


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## Goldenstar (16 November 2015)

My TB is not designed to stand in mud he is the result of years of selective breeding to run fast for three miles ,that's what he's designed for ,he's a man made creation that nature would never have come up with .

I don't consider myself guiltily of anything because my horse is bathed except helping to prevent him getting the numerous skin  conditions that you see in dirty field kept horses .

At the moment my horses are living out and coming in four or five hours a day to worked clipped etc they are in at night before hunting .
Soon they will have to come in overnight .
But I also know many people don't have the flexibility in their lives I have .
They don't own their own yard and fields and have to fit in with a yard routine to infer that they are somehow doing something to their horse for which ' there is no excuse ' is simply a too inflexible way to look at it.
I don't consider it's a given a horse turned out in a small paddock eight hours a day is getting more a appropriate level of exercise than one getting say three hours and a proper exercise daily .


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## Goldenstar (16 November 2015)

unicornystar said:



			Fact - and this is what leads me to feel the way I do...

Endotoxin levels at pasture are widely varied, but exposure in stables was approximately eight times higher than what outdoor horses were inhaling.  8 TIMES HIGHER and that is just coming in at night, think about the exposure to your horses lungs in 22 hours???  It doesn't matter what bedding you use, although they say deep litter is actually worse for ammonia levels, as an owner with a COPD pony caused probably by many years of stabling and going away to comps for weekends this is why turnout is important for me personally....I don't want my youngster with bad lungs at the age of 10!
		
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I have never bred a horse with bad lungs but have bought several and turned them round with good management which includes stabling .


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## Luci07 (16 November 2015)

I do find the whole air of "well, you will have to keep hunting till you find the perfect yard".... Rather sanctimonious. There isn't actually a world of choices in yards and compromises have to be made. And if you have a full time job that isn't on your doorstep...or dogs...or a family, then time becomes precious. I have been on a yard where we had awful winter grazing. The horses were 1/2 up to their cannon bones in mud. There were far too many horses (YO added another 8 after I had gone there) but my compromise was I wanted to ride after work so needed a floodlight school and access after 7. Yes my horses were out, but could have happily come in after a couple of hours as there was no grazing.  I really didn't have many choices in our area. Horses coped.


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## Cortez (16 November 2015)

I wonder how many people on here have to maintain land? My horses go out to pasture throughout the winter almost every day, if it is too wet they go out in the arena, but I take great care of my land - and it takes care of my animals, so if it is very wet the fields are closed. Cattle go into sheds all winter here, because the land will not support them and having animals standing around in sodden, sucking bogs is not the best way to care for them OR the land. Ensuring they get adequate exercise as well as sufficient food is the best way to maintain horses; standing them in mud pits does not equate to exercise.


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## unicornystar (16 November 2015)

I am not being inflexible I am being a realist.....it is only my opinion and many will disagree as will agree, who cares?? each to their own.  OP asked for opinions, I am simply giving mine.

On the TB note, I have owned several and they all managed perfectly well, friends dad breeds racehorses and the mares winter roughed off with no rugs out 24/7 every year (I cringed initially and said "Oh wot no rugs"!!  they are absolutely fine and very happy!!!  Yes have also had a sensitive skinned boy too..one scratch and boom an infection, it just takes good management, they don't need to be IN to survive and be well.

There is no excuse, move yards or change routine, I could NEVER keep a horse like that again and I certainly wouldn't pay a yard for the blessing of having to keep mine in all the time.

You are not that distant from my area Goldenstar and there are PLENTY of yards....and your routine doesn't sound like you keep yours in all the time anyway?!

it also isn't about levels of "exercise" it is about the time a horse is cooped up in a 12x12 or bigger if they are lucky space, it is not rocket science to know that standing around for that amount of time mentally isn't great.  There was a study done years ago where they did the same to people in a scaled to ratio version, the people were horse owners, they had a totally different viewpoint when they finished the study.

Generalisation MUCH? "DIRTY FIELD KEPT HORSES" LOL, I don't consider my horses dirty, field kept and happy yes, it only takes a few minutes to actually brush and groom them, NT Dry in the feet to ensure no thrush and other normal routines..... this is more about least effort for owners it appears!


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## unicornystar (16 November 2015)

...


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## unicornystar (16 November 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I have never bred a horse with bad lungs but have bought several and turned them round with good management which includes stabling .
		
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Good I am glad to hear it, sadly you will be in the minority, not everyone knows the best way to manage a COPD horse being kept in....


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## unicornystar (16 November 2015)

Cortez said:



			I wonder how many people on here have to maintain land? My horses go out to pasture throughout the winter almost every day, if it is too wet they go out in the arena, but I take great care of my land - and it takes care of my animals, so if it is very wet the fields are closed. Cattle go into sheds all winter here, because the land will not support them and having animals standing around in sodden, sucking bogs is not the best way to care for them OR the land. Ensuring they get adequate exercise as well as sufficient food is the best way to maintain horses; standing them in mud pits does not equate to exercise.
		
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I take great care of my small fields, bought some cheapy rubber ex gym mats which are working a treat, failing that I will get hardcore for next year....  if people are stupid enough to not take care of their land and allow horses to "stand around" in a bog...then maybe they shouldn't have horses?  Asking for trouble surely having soggy feet 24/7


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## Goldenstar (16 November 2015)

unicornystar said:



			I am not being inflexible I am being a realist.....it is only my opinion and many will disagree as will agree, who cares?? each to their own.  OP asked for opinions, I am simply giving mine.

On the TB note, I have owned several and they all managed perfectly well, friends dad breeds racehorses and the mares winter roughed off with no rugs out 24/7 every year (I cringed initially and said "Oh wot no rugs"!!  they are absolutely fine and very happy!!!  Yes have also had a sensitive skinned boy too..one scratch and boom an infection, it just takes good management, they don't need to be IN to survive and be well.

There is no excuse, move yards or change routine, I could NEVER keep a horse like that again and I certainly wouldn't pay a yard for the blessing of having to keep mine in all the time.

You are not that distant from my area Goldenstar and there are PLENTY of yards....and your routine doesn't sound like you keep yours in all the time anyway?!

it also isn't about levels of "exercise" it is about the time a horse is cooped up in a 12x12 or bigger if they are lucky space, it is not rocket science to know that standing around for that amount of time mentally isn't great.  There was a study done years ago where they did the same to people in a scaled to ratio version, the people were horse owners, they had a totally different viewpoint when they finished the study.

Generalisation MUCH? "DIRTY FIELD KEPT HORSES" LOL, I don't consider my horses dirty, field kept and happy yes, it only takes a few minutes to actually brush and groom them, NT Dry in the feet to ensure no thrush and other normal routines..... this is more about least effort for owners it appears!
		
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I am sure my hunting fit clipped TB will do just fine turned wth out a rug .
I don't care how you keep your horse I think your sweeping judgements of others are unfair .


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## Goldenstar (16 November 2015)

conniegirl said:



			Clip and ride under lights! No need for daylight just some good bulbs!

I clip at weekends anyway as that's when I have sufficient time to do so.
I pay my yard owner to put out and bring in, that means horses get out early and come in just before dark. I then ride in the school under the floodlights.

I personally wouldn't go so far as a minimum of 8 but would not stable my horse anywhere where they couldn't get out for at least 6 hours every day.
		
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That's your choice personally my staff don't like to work at night and it would not be fair to expect them to do so.


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## MotherOfChickens (16 November 2015)

Cortez said:



			I wonder how many people on here have to maintain land? My horses go out to pasture throughout the winter almost every day, if it is too wet they go out in the arena, but I take great care of my land - and it takes care of my animals, so if it is very wet the fields are closed. Cattle go into sheds all winter here, because the land will not support them and having animals standing around in sodden, sucking bogs is not the best way to care for them OR the land. Ensuring they get adequate exercise as well as sufficient food is the best way to maintain horses; standing them in mud pits does not equate to exercise.
		
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same here in the SW of Scotland. There is nothing out right now except sheep and one small outfit that specialises in grass fed beef. 

We've just had a month of rain in 2/3 days. Nothing is going out on my field although two of them are out 24/7 elsewhere. If I leave my paddock when its like this, I'll have use of it at another time. The retired pony who is at home, is living it up in my front garden or on the driveway for a few hours a day and in his 20 x 12ft box at night. I bought him home because I thought him a bit quiet but he seems fine now-probably because he's not just gone through several days of persistent, driving rain and 70mph winds.


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## ILuvCowparsely (16 November 2015)

unicornystar said:



			I take great care of my small fields, bought some cheapy rubber ex gym mats which are working a treat, failing that I will get hardcore for next year....  if people are stupid enough to not take care of their land and allow horses to "stand around" in a bog...then maybe they shouldn't have horses?  Asking for trouble surely having soggy feet 24/7
		
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 Quite!

 As told many times we have more horses to land but! our gateways have no rubber and the road stone as sunk over the years but our gateways are very little damaged the horses VERY rarely hang round the gateways they are always off grazing till we start catching in then they do wander down.

If by a miracle our fields stop coping with the amount we have then I am sorry but one of the DIY will have to go so we reduce the total amount of equines.  That said every year the fields bounce back and look amazing in thew spring.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (16 November 2015)

Agree with the points raise by Cortez and GS.

until each and every one of you has looked after and maintained land bought with YOUR money and YOUR hard work, you have zero idea how much effort it takes to maintain it.

a lot of land in the UK is clay. Clay is not ideal for horses. You need a lot more clay land per horse than say sand based soil..........population is increasing, construction is on the up, more housing is being built everywhere you look. It doesnt take a genius to work out that land per horse is reducing........so either a % of us need to give up having horses or we need to work out a game plan to deal with it.

April-Sept there are numerous threads on here moaning about not having 24/7 turnout and then Oct-March threads moaning about little turnout or mud.

if more people were willing to stable overnight all year round there would be more dry land and grass left for winter but from the yards i see, and the threads on here, no one wants to do that......they want it THEIR way all year round!

They want to strip graze and create lami paddocks (both of which are hard on land if not done properly) and wonder why the YO gets fed up and bans it so more moaning, but no one offers to hardcore gateways ,re seed in spring etc........nope everyone wants to trash the land and the YO to pay to sort it but livery prices must not rise and turnout out time must not decrease!!!!!!!! get real.

my land is sand and i am VERY lucky with it but i am obsessive about it. Each area is rested for 6 months of every year, the horses are always in at night. I re seed every spring, poo pick every day, mow off the rough areas,my dad picks weeds by hand,heck i even collect molehills out the walk way to stop them dissolving in to muddy puddles!

if more people understood the hard work it takes to create pristine green parcels of land, they would  think before demanding the impossible,year round!

i dont think keeping them in 24/7 is ideal either but its preferable to standing in tiny *sacrifice* bog pits that some smugly promote as giving all day turnout.......grim life for any horse IMO.

to all those boldly stating they wouldnt have horses if they couldnt be out 24/7 etc.............i think you are going to need to re think in the next 10 years.........


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## ILuvCowparsely (16 November 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Agree with the points raise by Cortez and GS.

until each and every one of you has looked after and maintained land bought with YOUR money and YOUR hard work, you have zero idea how much effort it takes to maintain it.

...
		
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How do you know some of us do not have our own land since you said each and every one of us???

 We did buy our land  and yard with MY money and Hubbies and we maintain it 24 7 - 365 days a year and  is valued now over £ 1,500,000.00  at last estimate 4 years ago  and we  have been running my livery land since 1996 - and It is Our  hard earnt money that pays for the maintenance of this land.   So don't asume some of us here have not had dealings with land.  With the money we spent on the land each year we have 19 years so far on how much it cost each year to maintain.

 So thank you very much  and I have had 40 years +  maintaining land  


 I have already stated that some land is different and wont cope


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## BSL (16 November 2015)

"until each and every one of you has looked after and maintained land bought with YOUR money and YOUR hard work, you have zero idea how much effort it takes to maintain it."

Bit of an unfair comment, I don't own the land we graze, but I certainly understand about upkeep and costs and often offer to pay for extra's to maintain...


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## Christmas Crumpet (16 November 2015)

We have 2 acres at home of turnout all year round on clay. I turn my horse out from 8.30 a.m - 6.30 p.m every day during the week. Horse also gets exercised every day of the week unless having a day off from hunting (generally a Sunday or Wednesday). Our fields do get very wet but because we look after them very well to help them recover, I do not worry about how muddy they get in the depths of winter. 

We always have plenty of grass, I have one horse out on its own who is fairly sensible and because he goes out every day and is ridden every day, he doesn't fart about in the field. 

I personally cannot bear the thought of a horse being in 23 hours a day endlessly throughout winter. I'd much rather deal with the muddy aftermath come spring and turn out every day. However, because we only have 2 acres, I can only have one horse. Simple. He does have company in surrounding fields over the fence so I do not worry about him being lonely. He is very self sufficient and likes his routine. 

We have sheep from April onwards in with horse to keep grass down, we harrow as soon as it is dry enough then overseed then roll it. It gets topped at least twice a summer and this summer we had so much grass, we got it taken away for silage when the contractors were doing the fields next-door. 

I do realise we are very lucky to be able to make the choice of winter turnout or not. I have never been on a livery yard but imagine it would be very frustrating with limited turnout.


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## Goldenstar (16 November 2015)

We have clay and in parts the top soil is very very thin we have to manage it carefully .
There is around thirteen acres of grazing .
With three horses it's doddle with five it's harder work and having around five acres of sacrifice pasture that is used October to April is the only way .
Very few livery yards can turn a profit on five horses on thirteen acres .


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## saddlesore (16 November 2015)

I wouldn't keep a horse at a yard with limited turnout as I think it's cruel. At the least they should get out during the day in the winter. Ideally 24/7 in the summer although I appreciate some are happy in at night year round.


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## cbmcts (16 November 2015)

Living where I do I've seen massive house building, reduction of greenbelt and with it a huge increase in the number of horses. Many of those owners, like me moved to this area for the space while still being able to commute (expensively!) to London for work. It's also good old Essex clay. Proper winter turnout is practically extinct now. The places that do offer a few hours a day out Oct - April do so in a bog. It is normal for yards to have 30 stables and 5 acres grazing - that is never going to work is it? Even on the best quality of land, that is too many horses for the space. And like I said, this is Essex clay... Even going on full/part livery doesn't get you any more turnout.

Previously I had my own grazing, maintained it and had mine living out 24/7 with just a bit of mud in the gateways but that land was rezoned for housing so I moved further out and started the hell of livery which has only got worse over the years. AS mine retired they were moved out of the county so they could live out - working full time and commuting meant that I could just about manage while they were in work and I could get others to exercise them but 23 hours a day in the stable retired becomes a welfare issue IMO. Now I won't even consider getting another (which I could afford these days) while I live in this area. Sad for me but better for the horse. Just will have to wait until I can afford to not work in London and can move to the arse end of Suffolk


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## ihatework (16 November 2015)

I'm sorry but I just don't think I could justify keeping horses in an area where land was either so poor or in such short supply that that winter turnout wasn't possible.

For me the bare minimum acceptable, for a working horse, is a half day (approx 4 hours), and I'd hope to have a walker available in addition to that if possible


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## unicornystar (16 November 2015)

saddlesore said:



			I wouldn't keep a horse at a yard with limited turnout as I think it's cruel. At the least they should get out during the day in the winter. Ideally 24/7 in the summer although I appreciate some are happy in at night year round.
		
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Coming in at night or day all year round is ideal for most yards, not sure why it is all or nothing and more yards don't do this!!!!


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## unicornystar (16 November 2015)

ihatework said:



			I'm sorry but I just don't think I could justify keeping horses in an area where land was either so poor or in such short supply that that winter turnout wasn't possible.

For me the bare minimum acceptable, for a working horse, is a half day (approx 4 hours), and I'd hope to have a walker available in addition to that if possible
		
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Totally agree, and as for having a "dirty field kept horse", I know horses including my own that can get dirtier in an hour than being out all day!!!


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## unicornystar (16 November 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I am sure my hunting fit clipped TB will do just fine turned wth out a rug .
I don't care how you keep your horse I think your sweeping judgements of others are unfair .
		
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 LOL, I am sure he or she will, god forbid they get muddy!!!

I don't care how you keep yours, funny that you find it a "sweeping judgement" no-else has reacted as you have, guilt perhaps of feeling perhaps in a more perfect world your clean horse should get more time out?

Seriously if you have 15 acres for 5 horses (am I reading that wrong are there other liveries?) not sure what your turnout issues are.


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## samlf (16 November 2015)

Around here there aren't any yards that close winter turnout - there was one that did, it closed down over 10 years ago and sold privately because no-one would livery their horse there.

Mine live out 24/7 on around 3.5 acres (two horses) if it is managed well (and I don't mean intensively fertilised etc) it is more than adequate. There is no way I would entertain my horse not being allowed to behave like a horse, regardless of any excuses about mud, not enough land, money etc.


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## fatpiggy (16 November 2015)

Nativelover said:



			I think it depends on whereabouts you are in the country. I grew up in the NE and there were no yards that restricted turnout, it was considered cruel to confine horses unless under veterinary care.

However I now live in the NW and have never known restrictions like it, one yard I know actually closes the fields for 9, yes 9, months of the year!!!!
But it also seems accepted over here, by the liveries and so the YO don't bother to offer any alternatives.
		
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Yes, I think its because there are a lot of built-up areas in the NW and grazing land is scarce. Yards tend to have way more horses on than they have land to cope with and many are a bit amateurish so land management is a foreign language (and currency!). Don't forget that in the NE you were in the rain-shadow so land is naturally drier over there so less likely to be cut to ribbons.  My garden is clay soil with sandstone bedrock beneath and even though I have only been outside to see to the chickens it is like a swamp and the mud is inches deep.


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## madlady (16 November 2015)

Wow emotive subject much!

The only thing I would not tolerate for my horses is no turn out at all and I also don't think that turn out necessarily means a field.

There have been numerous mentions of socialising for the horses - the need for them to be able to groom and interact with other horses.  I totally agree but how many of you who see that as so important keep your horses in American barn type stabling where there are bars between them and their neighbours?  Also how many of you complain about rugs getting trashed by other horses, your horse getting kicked by others etc?  It's all part of socialising.  There have been a few threads recently regarding individual turn out paddocks - again where is the socialisation in that?

We have our own yard but it doesn't have land, we have summer grazing that we rent and a small amount of land that a neighbour lets us use (about an acre) to stop it from getting overgrown.  My stables are not fancy indoor barns - they are an old converted cow shed with plenty of fresh air coming through, I also have half partitions between the stables and no bars so that they can groom one another and interact quite happily.  Our yard sits on a couple of acres in total which includes a fenced off 'paddock' type area.  Every day all of mine go out of their stables for between 2 and 4 hours depending on the weather.  2 of them go in the little field that belongs to our neighbour and then the other 2 are just left loose in the yard with haynets tied up in various locations.  

At the end of the day I would love to have stables which let out directly onto nice grazing that didn't get knee deep in winter and be able to leave the stable doors open so that they could choose to be in or out but I don't have that so I do the best that I can with what I do have.


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## MissTyc (16 November 2015)

I allow 24/7 turnout in winter -- we selected the  highest available piece of land (in the hope the water would drain better) and have set the fenceline at an angle that discourages fence walking. The bit by the gate is totally trashed and that's the way it will be until we change fields I am sure, but the end of the field hold up nicely. It's muddy, but they still pick at grass. Most come in but some ponies stay out. Obviously only an option if you can throw all your horses out together -- ours live as a herd the rest of the year anyway. 

It will look like a mud pit by March, then I'll open spring grazing and it will all dry up again. By next October the winter field will look like standing hay again and the gateways will be covered in grass and you'd never know it had been trashed to nothing earlier in the year.


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## EQUIDAE (16 November 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			...the numerous skin  conditions that you see in dirty field kept horses .
		
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My 'dirty field kept horse' - shock horror out 24/7 naked despite being clipped - have never had any skin condition. It is not turnout that causes skin conditions, it is over grooming and stripping their natural protection. But then I don't keep my horses in a manner just for my own convenience...

My horses winter paddock is left to rest during the summer and *shock horror* is always recovered enough to take a cut of hay off it, despite ending up a mud pit over winter.


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## JillA (16 November 2015)

MissTyc said:



			It will look like a mud pit by March, then I'll open spring grazing and it will all dry up again. By next October the winter field will look like standing hay again and the gateways will be covered in grass and you'd never know it had been trashed to nothing earlier in the year.
		
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That's the point really - unless it is badly overstocked it will recover. I am often horrified at how mine looks by the end of winter but we do have to remember the pasture is for the benefit of the horses, not the other way round


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## Annagain (16 November 2015)

The more I read these threads, the more I love my yard. I wouldn't stay anywhere where my horse couldn't get out for at least 8 hours a day in winter. I appreciate how hard it is though and am grateful to my YO for prioritising turnout over cash. 

We have 24/7 turnout from mid-April until (normally) mid-November and then have them in overnight from Nov-April. They go out every day regardless of weather and can be turned out as early and brought in as late as we'd like. Mine are normally out 6.30am-6.30pm. The gateways can get a bit muddy, but within about 10m of the gate the grass is lovely and green and there's plenty to last them all winter without being supplemented with hay (other than when in overnight). 

This year there's only 9 horses rather than the usual 12, so rather than splitting into 2 herds of 6 (after spending the summer on the hay fields all together) and having an 8 acre winter field each, they're going to stick together and rotate. This means they're still out 24/7 with no sign of them coming in and the grass is still growing. The plan is to let them graze their current field down to the level at which they'd normally come in, then move them to the other winter field and do the same to that and only then have them come in. I'm hoping to have my first lie in on Christmas morning for about 15 years this year! On the downside I might have to buy a heavyweight rug if they boys are out while full clipped and the weather gets cold! I could bring them in but both they and I will be much happier if they're out.  

We sometimes moan as other yards in our area have theirs out by mid March and we have to wait another month but at this time of year I'm grateful for it as I'm not mucking out yet!


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## samsbilly (16 November 2015)

I have just moved my horses to another yard in order to allow them more turnout with better grass. However they are on clay so when we had all that rain last week they stayed in for one day! they also stayed in last week for one day as the hunt rode through the fields and I thought it would be safer than letting them hoon around and trash the field even more. The gate ways are muddy but will recover. We all do the best we can for our horses it isn't a competition as to who looks after their horse the best. We all have lives outside of horses and sometimes the horses just have to fit in


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## hackedoff (16 November 2015)

I moved from the Midlands where all year all day and often all night turnout was the norm to the North west. The area I now live in is on the edge of dark peak and very wet, very hilly and with clay soil and thin grass roots. The norm around here is no turnout in winter and yet it is a very rural area. 

The yard I am on offers around 2 hours a day in groups on the only free draining fields over winter both for the horses and the lands sake. I used to think it was over the top until my old horse ripped his tendons 'playing' in the spring mud! 

I only know of one or two yards locally that have more turnout over winter and they are not ones I would use for other reasons. Quite a culture shock and determined my choice for next horse after old boy was pts.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (16 November 2015)

lannerch said:



			Agree But that daily turnout is not necessarily a field .

And to those that say if you can't find a yard with all year field turnout them you shouldn't keep one now your becoming just ridiculous.

I keep my horse to ride , how selfish he's also my pet and lives better than I do but fundamentally I have him to ride it is my hobby, which also means to me a livery yards facilities are more important to me than all year FIELD turnout. 

If I couldn't ride I wouldn't have a horse that doesn't mean I get rid of him as soon as he's lame he's recently been on over a year of vetinerary enforced box rest I spent thousands on his rehab. 

Also are all those who think it is so cruel vegans? A lot of the milk we get are now from barn kept dairy cows 365 days a year, the rest nearly all spend the winter months you've guessed it in a barn!
		
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Adequate turnout for me is a paddock large enough for a buck & a fart if the horses mood takes, an opportunity to socialise with its own species & grass/hay on the ground to graze.


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## Goldenstar (16 November 2015)

unicornystar said:



			LOL, I am sure he or she will, god forbid they get muddy!!!

I don't care how you keep yours, funny that you find it a "sweeping judgement" no-else has reacted as you have, guilt perhaps of feeling perhaps in a more perfect world your clean horse should get more time out?

Seriously if you have 15 acres for 5 horses (am I reading that wrong are there other liveries?) not sure what your turnout issues are.
		
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I don't have turn out issues I own my own place it's around fifteen acres down to grass . 
I have to manage the land I have which is clay .
In some places that means the top soil is two inches below that it's red clay such good clay that part of our place was the clay pit that gave the clay for the tiles that where used to build the local village   literally thousands and thousands of tons of well rotten muck has been put on the land with the thinnest top soil  in the last twenty five years and it has improved but it seems it's my life's work improving the land .
I could not maintain it looking decent and pleasant for the horses with more than five who are stabled at night part of the year and get around three to four hours turnout on working days for part of the winter .
My next project is the building of a large hardstanding and a big openfronted shed within a solid fenced yard to give the horses more shelter , I am not helped by the fact we are at the top of a hill catching the prevailing west wind from one side and the wind straight from Siberia on the other .
The new shed should allow me to keep some of them out longer in winter it should solve the issue of feeding in the field which does just not work ATM .
I am in about the ideal situation ( even the windy location has advantages we rarely have terrible flys ) I can manage my horses as I wish .
But most people I know just can't they are doing the best they can with the livery that most meets their needs .
Cbmcts posts illustrates that people are already seeing what I was on about in my earlier posts that as the land nearer towns gets built on the pressure on livery will get worse .
I think mother of chickens had a point when she said fewer horses will be the ultimate result .


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## MotherOfChickens (16 November 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			My 'dirty field kept horse' - shock horror out 24/7 naked despite being clipped - have never had any skin condition. It is not turnout that causes skin conditions, it is over grooming and stripping their natural protection. But then I don't keep my horses in a manner just for my own convenience...

My horses winter paddock is left to rest during the summer and *shock horror* is always recovered enough to take a cut of hay off it, despite ending up a mud pit over winter.
		
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That depends on where you are though-in this part of the world the growing season is too short for ground to recover to that extent from a mud pit. It might recover enough to graze but not take hay off. Also, someone mentioned high ground, up here you're as likely to have a bog on the top or side of the hill as at the bottom.


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## EQUIDAE (16 November 2015)

MotherOfChickens said:



			That depends on where you are though-in this part of the world the growing season is too short for ground to recover to that extent from a mud pit. It might recover enough to graze but not take hay off. Also, someone mentioned high ground, up here you're as likely to have a bog on the top or side of the hill as at the bottom.
		
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Nonsense. If I chose to rest the field I could take two cuts. It grows back perfectly fine... And I am on wet hilly land with areas of marsh grass. The difference is that I manage my land - too few yard owners actually do this though.


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## MotherOfChickens (17 November 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Nonsense. If I chose to rest the field I could take two cuts. It grows back perfectly fine... And I am on wet hilly land with areas of marsh grass. The difference is that I manage my land - too few yard owners actually do this though.
		
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It's not 'nonsense' . We don't get two cuts of hay here but hey, you obviously know more about where I live than I do.


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## Princess16 (17 November 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			My TB is not designed to stand in mud he is the result of years of selective breeding to run fast for three miles ,that's what he's designed for ,he's a man made creation that nature would never have come up with .

I don't consider myself guiltily of anything because my horse is bathed except helping to prevent him getting the numerous skin  conditions that you see in dirty field kept horses . 
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Bit of a sweeping comment there ! I have a field kept horse and he has never had a skin condition thank you, mud fever or any other ailment. Dirty yes but that's to be expected from an animal living out 24/7 How dare you generalise,,please think before you open your mouth with your scathing comments.

Oh and we have 2 fields which are rotated winter and summer with good drainage so he is not standing in a mud pit 24/7,


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## Goldenstar (17 November 2015)

The thing with grass is once it's out of forced agricultural production it varies widely from field to field let alone from place to place .
Even on my little place the grass varies one corner was a market garden during the war and it's very productive that three and bit acres has never been ploughed up since just after the war and it can easily sustain our horses all summer and into autumn and look beautiful if I give it a three week break mid summer .
The sacrifice field was barley when we arrived it's the ploughing that has exacerbated the top soil issues it will never fully recover .
People with clay land know that the grass will recover mantra is really not fully true if you pull red clay up into your top soil you will struggle with horse type use and will have to aggressively manage to repair things .
The winter I had all of my horses but one BF made an enormous difference to the winter field so that's one way of preserving pastures the best you can people on restricted grazing could think of in winter .
I would love to give my sacrifice field a years break but I even looked at buying another field however realistically paying 90k plus a huge fencing bill to rest a field made emotional not financial sense and I can buy the extra forage I use in March and April for  along time before I have spent 90k.
It also keeps a break on my horse habit I know five is what this place will sustain ,more land more horses is I fear what would have happened.


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## wench (17 November 2015)

Well I'm pleased that my winter routine suits me and my horse...


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## Goldenstar (17 November 2015)

wench said:



			Well I'm pleased that my winter routine suits me and my horse...
		
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Well that's the thing isn't it , it's finding livery that fits in with you if livery is what you have to do .


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## Clodagh (17 November 2015)

samsbilly said:



			. We all do the best we can for our horses it isn't a competition as to who looks after their horse the best. We all have lives outside of horses and sometimes the horses just have to fit in 

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Well put.


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## Copperpot (17 November 2015)

For me and my horses it would be a no. I've been on a yard with restricted turnout and it made one particularly unhappy. So I left and found something which suited him better. He's now a dirty field kept horse &#9786;&#65039;


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## impresario08 (17 November 2015)

Mine go out every day


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## wiglet (17 November 2015)

My friend and I have both recently moved from the same yard to different yards. Her yard has facilities to die for - indoor and outdoor schools, hot water wash room, solarium - everything except it's on heavy clay and turnout is restricted. They've been in for the past week but her horse will happily stand in all day and eat hay. I didn't move there because I know it wouldn't of suited MY horse. My horse likes to be turned out everyday. It doesn't have to be all day - if the weather is foul, she'll be happy to come in early. 

The yard I went to has good facilities - an outdoor school, tackroom, personal storage, hot water if you boil the kettle! It has turnout everyday and suits MY horse perfectly. Everyone's different, as long as it suits, everyone's happy.


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## Meowy Catkin (17 November 2015)

That's very true wiglet. I used to have a TB that certainly didn't believe that she should have to be in a stable ever regardless of any selective breeding to create her breed. In fact stabling distressed her so much (wouldn't eat or drink, just shook and ground her teeth) that it really wasn't kind to have her on anything bar 24/7 turnout. I'm sure that some reading this are thinking that I'm being over the top, but trust me, if you'd met her you'd know that I am simply being accurate.

I did find GS's comment about dirty field kept horses and skin conditions quite funny and that's coming from someone who has a horse that suffers from LV, which is a particularly nasty skin condition. He's actually done far better with the LV when kept out all the time and having his legs left totally alone, but then horses never read the rule books do they? That's the thing about sweeping statements (and horses), they tend to make fools of us all.

Anyhoo. All I can say is that I still think that all weather turnout areas should be used more, especially when yards have clay soil or fewer than ideal acres for the horses. I find FW's turnout area for her PPSM cob interesting. It's certainly made a huge difference to that cob's quality of life and reinforces my opinion that turnout doesn't have to _always_ be on grass.


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## applecart14 (17 November 2015)

willowblack said:



			Morning all!

Our YO closes the fields during winter and turnout is confined to indoor school or one field, they go out for an hour a day give or take because they are rotated. 

I have been there for 3 years, only went temporarily because I accidentally acquired too many ponies for the 2 and a bit acre field we have at home &#55357;&#56860; And have never used a livery yard before then.

Is this common place at livery yards?

Thank you x X
		
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We have twelve acres, a lot of that is on low lying ground not far from a stream and the other paddocks are on a slope and low lying ground so they all tend to get flooded in winter.  They come off the big field about Sept/Oct (again depending on weather) and then we get the choice between sandpit or paddock, paddock being for as long as is feesible before it gets flooded again.

The sandpit is brilliant. There are two parts, each is about 15m x 12m separated from the other with electric fencing. Each horse goes in with its friend on the opposite side of the electric for one and a half to two hours per day.  When they roll the sand is easily brushed out with a brush, it doesn't stain the legs, its clean although that too has water lying on top of it at times!  There is a huge haynet put in the night before and each horse nibbles on it. 

Its the best thing for them, as it gets them out of the mud.  With only 12 acres the fields have to be protected for the following spring when they go out again.  I know grass comes back really well, but it does get wet in those paddocks, although its nothing like the yard I came from previously.

My horse HAS to go out everyday and stretch his legs as he has arthritis and needs to be kept moving, over the last ten years before I left the last yard he only stopped in (other than when on box rest) for three days due to bad weather.


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## Embo (17 November 2015)

My yard operates restricted turnout in winter (November - March). In wet weather the fields are closed, but the horses are turned into the indoor school in small groups. In fine weather, they are turned out in both the indoor school (small groups whilst being mucked out, so an hour or so) and then turned out into the top paddock, again, in small groups for a few hours. We are on clay.

My horse is ridden for up to an hour 6 days per week (yard is closed on Mondays).

The fields are re-seeded in spring and maintained all year round. In summer, we are allowed 24/7 turnout if we wish, but the majority are out during the day/in at night or in during the day/out at night.

Is it ideal? No. But the yard suits me and my horse in every other way. We are happy - and my horse is the type to let you know if he is unhappy!

Call me cruel if you like.


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## AdorableAlice (17 November 2015)

Interesting comments with the general thoughts being yard owners should provide 12 month turnout.

Assuming the majority of people commenting are on DIY.  What would you consider an appropriate weekly charge for DIY with 12 month turnout to be ?  I appreciate that some yards will have schools etc, but in general what is considered a fair diy charge.  No hay etc provided, just your box water/power, storage and no or little restriction on grazing.


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## unicornystar (17 November 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			My 'dirty field kept horse' - shock horror out 24/7 naked despite being clipped - have never had any skin condition. It is not turnout that causes skin conditions, it is over grooming and stripping their natural protection. But then I don't keep my horses in a manner just for my own convenience...

My horses winter paddock is left to rest during the summer and *shock horror* is always recovered enough to take a cut of hay off it, despite ending up a mud pit over winter.
		
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Princess16 said:



			Bit of a sweeping comment there ! I have a field kept horse and he has never had a skin condition thank you, mud fever or any other ailment. Dirty yes but that's to be expected from an animal living out 24/7 How dare you generalise,,please think before you open your mouth with your scathing comments.

Oh and we have 2 fields which are rotated winter and summer with good drainage so he is not standing in a mud pit 24/7,
		
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Totally agree!! I was accused of being judgemental by Goldenstar then this!!  Never had any mud fever with my tb or other horses!!!! never had skin conditions, because I don't wash them within an inch of their life all the time!


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## Luci07 (17 November 2015)

unicornystar said:



			Totally agree!! I was accused of being judgemental by Goldenstar then this!!  Never had any mud fever with my tb or other horses!!!! never had skin conditions, because I don't wash them within an inch of their life all the time!
		
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Mudfever is down to the luck of the draw sometimes though. I only washed the feet because I needed to put keratex on his hooves. I brushed the mud off. I have mud fever in both back legs.. but it looks like my horse is going to be a little bit precious. I was very careful not to wash off his legs as well!  but please, if someone chooses to groom or wash their horse, then that is their choice and it becomes somewhat patronising to read the self congratulatory comments about how some people choose not to. I don't judge either way. I keep my horse the same way as I have previous horses and this is the first one who got mudfever as well..


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## Goldenstar (17 November 2015)

unicornystar said:



			Totally agree!! I was accused of being judgemental by Goldenstar then this!!  Never had any mud fever with my tb or other horses!!!! never had skin conditions, because I don't wash them within an inch of their life all the time!
		
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That's your opinion nothing more .


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## Goldenstar (17 November 2015)

Faracat said:



			That's very true wiglet. I used to have a TB that certainly didn't believe that she should have to be in a stable ever regardless of any selective breeding to create her breed. In fact stabling distressed her so much (wouldn't eat or drink, just shook and ground her teeth) that it really wasn't kind to have her on anything bar 24/7 turnout. I'm sure that some reading this are thinking that I'm being over the top, but trust me, if you'd met her you'd know that I am simply being accurate.

I did find GS's comment about dirty field kept horses and skin conditions quite funny and that's coming from someone who has a horse that suffers from LV, which is a particularly nasty skin condition. He's actually done far better with the LV when kept out all the time and having his legs left totally alone, but then horses never read the rule books do they? That's the thing about sweeping statements (and horses), they tend to make fools of us all.

Anyhoo. All I can say is that I still think that all weather turnout areas should be used more, especially when yards have clay soil or fewer than ideal acres for the horses. I find FW's turnout area for her PPSM cob interesting. It's certainly made a huge difference to that cob's quality of life and reinforces my opinion that turnout doesn't have to _always_ be on grass.
		
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Why is it funny ?
All horses are different all yards are different and importantly all soils vary and if you are taking about mud fever the soil type is key .
Soil which contains very sharp silicates will cause many more issues particularity in mud fevers with a fungal element .
Fatty who came to me with a epic skin problem because he's immune suppressed does best bathed at least one a week and we keep his legs clipped between September and spring.
It took me time to work out how to manage him but I sussed him now .
I don't do dirty horses ever ,winter or summer turned out or kept in. The only horses I allow a bit of dirt are on holiday horses in winter we probably groom them just every other day ,but I do avoid having horses out of work in winter because I don't think they take enough exercise outside in winter to stay in optimal health.


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## Michen (17 November 2015)

I pay 25 a week for this



AdorableAlice said:



			Interesting comments with the general thoughts being yard owners should provide 12 month turnout.

Assuming the majority of people commenting are on DIY.  What would you consider an appropriate weekly charge for DIY with 12 month turnout to be ?  I appreciate that some yards will have schools etc, but in general what is considered a fair diy charge.  No hay etc provided, just your box water/power, storage and no or little restriction on grazing.
		
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## lrw0250 (17 November 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			Interesting comments with the general thoughts being yard owners should provide 12 month turnout.

Assuming the majority of people commenting are on DIY.  What would you consider an appropriate weekly charge for DIY with 12 month turnout to be ?  I appreciate that some yards will have schools etc, but in general what is considered a fair diy charge.  No hay etc provided, just your box water/power, storage and no or little restriction on grazing.
		
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£100 PCM for the above. Its is up to us liveries to decide when/how often to bring in depending on the weather and how our field is looking. My sec a shares a field with a connie and it is currently not too bad other than a bit boggy at the gate and the spot where we feed hay. It helps that we are at the top of a hill.  We still have around a third of the whole field sectioned off behind electric tape and will start gradually giving them more grass as it get colder - so probably this weekend! Our 2 live out most of the time but will come in to stables when needed, so overnight if it is really miserable or if it has been constant rain for a couple of days to give them a break and a chance to dry out.


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## Goldenstar (17 November 2015)

A friend offering farm type livery is £25 .
The liverys have to sort everything themselves if they don't like the fences ( mostly I would not ) they have to provide their own electric fenced to the inside and some have no water there are more stables than horses so I am not sure how that works . He does not provide bedding or forage but he will sell them bid bale haylage which is nice quality .
No school or any small area to work 
but access to good hacking but with some very nasty gates ( you would get good at mounting and dismounting )but it's genuine 24/7 turnout on an organic farm so good unimproved grass for horses .
Another friend does DIY no assistance of any type available nice stables £47 a week includes haylage  and straw  ,outdoor school great riding they do close paddocks in the wet but allow turnout in a big field ( about fifteen perhaps twenty acres ) interesting most clients choose  to keep in rather than use a big field and most of the horses are not ridden it surprises me they don't want the bigger turnout it's a lovely field .


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## Nativelover (17 November 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			Interesting comments with the general thoughts being yard owners should provide 12 month turnout.

Assuming the majority of people commenting are on DIY.  What would you consider an appropriate weekly charge for DIY with 12 month turnout to be ?  I appreciate that some yards will have schools etc, but in general what is considered a fair diy charge.  No hay etc provided, just your box water/power, storage and no or little restriction on grazing.
		
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I think that there are many YO who give no thought to providing TO in winter, mainly due to cost, but sometimes it's purely too much effort and when 90% of surrounding yards don't bother either why should they??? Also many liveries accept this and also accept the YO thinking of them as a hindrance rather than a client who provides income.

I would happily pay £50-£60 pw for DIY with winter turnout, but I know many wouldn't/couldn't do this. There is a private yard near to me, the land is marshy/clay soil. They have put a track down around one of the largest fields, just rubble and hoggin. Then back filled with the soil they removed. Their horses go out on this through the winter. It saves their land and gives the horses some turnout. In very bad weather they turnout in their school. It didn't cost much, but is very useful. I wish other yards would adopt the same, but I have found that YO are very reluctant to spend on maintenance of land.


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## be positive (17 November 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			Interesting comments with the general thoughts being yard owners should provide 12 month turnout.

Assuming the majority of people commenting are on DIY.  What would you consider an appropriate weekly charge for DIY with 12 month turnout to be ?  I appreciate that some yards will have schools etc, but in general what is considered a fair diy charge.  No hay etc provided, just your box water/power, storage and no or little restriction on grazing.
		
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I do provide 12 months turnout but it will be restricted to an extent in the worst weather, the odd day in never two consecutive days, sometimes coming in at lunchtime, my liveries are a mix of part and assisted so I do have a degree of control that does not come with total DIY which suits me and my liveries, I will never offer full DIY having had a few bad experiences mainly to do with a total disregard for the land.

It costs money to maintain the land, more if it is used in the winter, I have about 16 acres for around 10-12 mainly ponies / smaller horses most unshod, if I only got £25 per week for 6 of my boxes/ use of fields it would barely cover normal expenses, I would prefer to leave a couple of boxes empty at that rate. 
I charge £40 for assisted, they get a box, use of a field and arena, I feed am, turn out, bring in and give hay if they come in early or spend the day in, my DIY owners both work odd hours/ shifts so it suits them to not have to come twice a day every day, the others are part liveries so are done Mon- Fri by me.

In reality livery is generally underpriced and undervalued, in many areas if people had to pay the true cost horse ownership would be out of reach of many people, there cannot be many yards that make a decent return on the capital investment and most are probably like myself run to cover the expenses of our own horses rather than as a stand alone business, my main income will be from selling the property at some time in the future as land prices continue to rise.


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## Enfys (17 November 2015)

Embo said:



			My horse is ridden for up to an hour 6 days per week (yard is closed on Mondays).

QUOTE]

Going off on a slight tangent here, but closed on Mondays? I am curious, is it a Riding Centre? That I can understand, but closed as in closed, no owners on it?
		
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## OWLIE185 (17 November 2015)

The issue is that although people are taught how to ride they are not taught how to manage grassland.  Even on clay soil if the fields are properly drained and maintained and not overgrazed then they will survive the winter and provide winter grazing for the horses.  The real issue is that most yards have too many horses for the type of grazing they have.  In addition where there is restricted grazing or turnout then the horses should simply be ridden more to avoid them standing in all day.  i.e find sharers that will hack out your horse.


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## dibbin (17 November 2015)

I've never been on (or known of) a yard that strict on turnout. One that I used to be on had a field rota in the winter but they divided the horses into set turnout groups and each group got 3 full days out a week, which I could live with.

Where we are at the moment we have daily turnout year round but the fields are a disaster as they've been over-grazed and under-maintained for years, so ours are stabled overnight all year round and we have to put hay/haylage out for them all winter.

ETA - on the cost point, where we are now is £100pcm with no yard management as such, it's full DIY and the liveries just get on with it. YO not involved at all - we do all our own fencing etc. Where I had Jazz before was £32pw with 24 hour summer turnout and daily turnout in winter, again we were full DIY but there was a YM and the farmer YO dealt with maintenance.


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## applecart14 (17 November 2015)

As per normal on this forum, this post has appeared to be turning into a bitching fest!! Yes people are allowed to have their own opinions but not at the detriment of others.

Why are people so judgemental of others?  Why is it always the same few people, time and time again?

Mud fever is caused by the bacterial agent dermatophilus congolensis and can happen to any horse at any time.  Yes its usually found in muddy fields but it is also found living on the skin of horses and develops into mud fever by prolonged wet conditions, not necessarily mud, long grass can cause it too.  It can be caused by abrasions on the skin through sand as well as dirt which allows the bacteria in. Cattle sheep and goats are also affected!

So its not always a case of owners being negligent in turning horses out into thick mud paddocks!


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## MrsElle (17 November 2015)

I've recently taken over a livery yard.  It's a small yard with only three ladies, all with more than one horse/pony.  Each has stables and an allocated field.  The liveries are free to use their field 24/7/365, but if it gets trashed it is them who suffer in the long run.  I haven't got stables as my TB won't stable so mine are all in the school at the moment, due to the state of the fields.  I would rather horses be out if possible, whether my own or the liveries, but sometimes the weather dictates otherwise.  My liveries have all been here years and are really good at keeping their fields in good condition, so I am happy.  Mine are the only ones out today as the liveries have decided against it, but everyone is happy, which is the main thing


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## HashRouge (17 November 2015)

The area around my parent's house is very bad for turnout, which I think is a combination of heavy clay and heavy rainfall. The amount of winter turnout on offer varies, but in each case the land gets absolutely trashed over winter. One of the yard owners has all weather turnout paddocks and has just put in a track system (don't get too excited, they aren't amazing quality!) and one allows turnout in the school after Christmas when her winter fields get very bad. My sister and I rotated around these yards when we were kids and they were far from ideal, but not much else you can do when you're too young to drive. We did manage okay, when we were on the yard with the all weather paddocks our ponies went in the paddock 9am-12, then ridden in the afternoon after school. If it was consistently dry they did get field turnout there, it just depended entirely on how much rain we got. Likewise on the yard when the arena got used for turnout, my mare was at least always out of the stable twice a day. That yard was much better because the horses had 24/7 turnout for much longer (March to November if if was fairly dry) and the fields were usually fine until January, so it tended to just be January/ February when they were limited to turnout in the school. There were other yards nearby, but they would have been worse options in regard to turnout.

We still keep our horses in that area, but as we (my sister and I) can both drive we've been able to go further afield to where the turnout is better. So we have 24/7/ 365 now which is lovely, although we do bring them in if the weather is too bad as in our search for better ground we've had to go higher up, and it's quite exposed where we are atm! But on the plus side, it is nearly December and we still have too much grass!!


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## Enfys (17 November 2015)

applecart14 said:



As per normal on this forum, this post has appeared to be turning into a bitching fest!! QUOTE]

Not just HHO, any forum, this is a Grade A slag fest subject 

My yard was, of course, perfect 

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## Goldenstar (17 November 2015)

Enfys said:





applecart14 said:



As per normal on this forum, this post has appeared to be turning into a bitching fest!! QUOTE]

Not just HHO, any forum, this is a Grade A slag fest subject 

My yard was, of course, perfect 

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Now we have bored of rugs and barefoot .
		
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## Meowy Catkin (17 November 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Why is it funny ?
		
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It was the way you phrased your post.


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## applecart14 (17 November 2015)

Enfys said:





applecart14 said:



As per normal on this forum, this post has appeared to be turning into a bitching fest!! QUOTE]

Not just HHO, any forum, this is a Grade A slag fest subject 

QUOTE]

Do people not get fed up of being slagged off all the time?  I know I did when it happened to me and I found it very upsetting.
		
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## Tiddlypom (17 November 2015)

AA, it wouldn't make financial sense for me to offer the DIY you describe for any less than £50/week. There's a decent but not floodlit 40m x 20m school. 

I know how much I paid to set up my small yard (eek), and how much it costs to maintain it (double eek).

No one would pay more than £25/week, though, as £20 pw seems to be the norm in these parts.

Immediate disconnect.


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## Goldenstar (17 November 2015)

Not sure who you think is being slagged off all the time Applecart .
One poster said that there was no excuse for horses not being turned out eight hours which I thought was silly because I can think of dozens and dozens of reasons why a horse could not be out for eight hours a day everyday ,but they where not aiming it at anyone in particular .
I think the interesting thing here is how people think we get round the fact that land is expensive ,many yards don't have enough and what you do about it .


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## Cortez (17 November 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			AA, it wouldn't make financial sense for me to offer the DIY you describe for any less than £50/week. There's a decent but not floodlit 40m x 20m school. 

I know how much I paid to set up my small yard (eek), and how much it costs to maintain it (double eek).

No one would pay more than £25/week, though, as £20 pw seems to be the norm in these parts.


Immediate disconnect.
		
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Makes me wonder why people bother offering livery at all, it cannot be for the money. For all those who think livery yard owners are "greedy", if they were to charge enough to really make it pay there would be a significant number of people who would simply not be able to afford to have a horse.


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## EQUIDAE (17 November 2015)

Y



Cortez said:



			Makes me wonder why people bother offering livery at all, it cannot be for the money. For all those who think livery yard owners are "greedy", if they were to charge enough to really make it pay there would be a significant number of people who would simply not be able to afford to have a horse.
		
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I agree - though through people wanting cheap livery yo have to compromise on quality. If I could find £50 a week 24/7 turnout I wouldn't keep mine at home.


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## lrw0250 (17 November 2015)

Cortez said:



			Makes me wonder why people bother offering livery at all, it cannot be for the money. For all those who think livery yard owners are "greedy", if they were to charge enough to really make it pay there would be a significant number of people who would simply not be able to afford to have a horse.
		
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I "think" on my yard it was a case of diversifying to make use of redundant land and buildings when the livestock went. As well as working as an agricultural consultant our YO has the livery business, 2 holiday cottages that are permanently booked as they are fantastic and some arable crops. He has created a market for his hay and straw with the liveries and IIRC our local council were doing kind of reduced rates for livery yards due to lack of them in the area. In his case I would imagine a profit but could not be solely relied upon as a form of income, it is more a side line.


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## Embo (17 November 2015)

Enfys said:



			Going off on a slight tangent here, but closed on Mondays? I am curious, is it a Riding Centre? That I can understand, but closed as in closed, no owners on it?
		
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No, not a riding centre. Just a livery yard! YO lives on-site and the yard is 'closed' so one day per week, no constant traffic in and out. It's unusual, yes, but the horses are taken care of just like any other day (staff still work etc). Bank holidays are 'open' days, so it's not the strictest rule. If you needed to come up for whatever reason, you'd never be told 'no'. We have no restrictions any other day. Can come and go as we please.

It wouldn't suit some people, but it suits us just fine  it's a compromise for a lovely yard and lovely YO.


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## AdorableAlice (17 November 2015)

Cortez said:



			Makes me wonder why people bother offering livery at all, it cannot be for the money. For all those who think livery yard owners are "greedy", if they were to charge enough to really make it pay there would be a significant number of people who would simply not be able to afford to have a horse.
		
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Spot on, as was Be Positive's reply, and a very real reason why many yards do not do DIY.

Let use the simple figure of £100pcm, so £1200 a year.

Post and rail is £10/12 a metre.  Dump of hardcore, top dress planings and the digger to do a wet gateway £350.  Contractor in at spring time to harrow and rectify.  Fert. Replace the snapped off gate post which would not have happened had the gate not been left swinging in the wind. £80.  Bit of creosote splashed around the stables, water bill, power bill, chewed stable door, muck heap spread or remove etc etc.


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## Enfys (17 November 2015)

Goldenstar said:





Enfys said:



			Now we have bored of rugs and barefoot .
		
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We could always move on to the golden standby  ...

Why do you/don't you like arabs, tbs, cobs, warmbloods, any other breed or type you can think of ?  

Or, god forbid ... my horse is a tri-colour ... and sit back and wait 

Or I could just post a video of a paso fino/rocky/Kentucky/peruvian 

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## Enfys (17 November 2015)

applecart14 said:





Enfys said:





applecart14 said:



As per normal on this forum, this post has appeared to be turning into a bitching fest!! QUOTE]

Not just HHO, any forum, this is a Grade A slag fest subject 

QUOTE]

Do people not get fed up of being slagged off all the time?  I know I did when it happened to me and I found it very upsetting.
		
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Take it with an entire block of salt and move on, very few people on here actually know each other, or individual horses, circumstances etc, so most things that are said on here are just personal experiences and opinions. Sometimes it is just a lot of hooey and maybe those people read a lot, watch You Tube and actually live in some dreary high rise apartment block in a smoky city and are just keyboard warriors, whatever, if someone really gets you down just imagine some fat, wrinkly person with their pants around their ankles on the loo, not so scarey or perfect then.  Works for me 

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## Enfys (17 November 2015)

Embo said:



			No, not a riding centre. Just a livery yard! YO lives on-site and the yard is 'closed' so one day per week, no constant traffic in and out. It's unusual, yes, but the horses are taken care of just like any other day (staff still work etc). Bank holidays are 'open' days, so it's not the strictest rule. If you needed to come up for whatever reason, you'd never be told 'no'. We have no restrictions any other day. Can come and go as we please.

It wouldn't suit some people, but it suits us just fine  it's a compromise for a lovely yard and lovely YO.
		
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Aha, thanks, I see. I can see the merits of it, and why not? if it works for you all, no problem


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## Sussexbythesea (17 November 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			Interesting comments with the general thoughts being yard owners should provide 12 month turnout.

Assuming the majority of people commenting are on DIY.  What would you consider an appropriate weekly charge for DIY with 12 month turnout to be ?  I appreciate that some yards will have schools etc, but in general what is considered a fair diy charge.  No hay etc provided, just your box water/power, storage and no or little restriction on grazing.
		
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We have two large individual paddocks each. We have all year daily turn out but are not permitted to turn out at night time. We have large stables, lots of storage, proper toilet, heated tack and rug room plus a 60x30 rubber/sand school which is minimally lit and fabulous hacking for £150 a month. Spraying and pasture maintenance such as harrowing and rolling is a bit hit and miss but fences are mended fairly promptly and the fields are topped. There are no additional services provided by the yard.


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## gunnergundog (17 November 2015)

Enfys said:





applecart14 said:





Enfys said:



			if someone really gets you down just imagine some fat, wrinkly person with their pants around their ankles on the loo, not so scarey or perfect then.  Works for me 

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Good advice! Everyone is human and needs to breathe and cr*p!  

This was precisely how I used to imagine Lord Weinstock when I had to deal with him in the 80's!  (No disrespect intended, but he was .....errrm.....a tad difficult and had a reputation of  being a bit of a b*gger!  Had some great race horses though - especially Troy!)
		
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## charlie76 (17 November 2015)

Cortez said:



			Makes me wonder why people bother offering livery at all, it cannot be for the money. For all those who think livery yard owners are "greedy", if they were to charge enough to really make it pay there would be a significant number of people who would simply not be able to afford to have a horse.
		
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Where's the like button!!


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## MochaDun (17 November 2015)

I have been at two very different yards with my horse - first one 12 geldings out together in one field and all in at night during winter and while the field was an utter bog within weeks of the winter routine they could go out each day (9am-3pm) and only were kept in on occasion when weather was just too wild or if you chose to on certain days yourself (usually due to mud fever or to give your horse a break from the mud). Would depend on the type of winter weather though too.  YO also asked sometimes to only put out for a few hours at weekends but not many adhered to that or were helpful about it.  

Yard I'm on now has paddocks for 4-5 horses and well managed, again all in at night from Nov to end April, probably 8am-4pm ish.  We do expect on odd days after endless rain not to be able to turn out or in very high winds but think across the 2 winters I've been there now it's been no more than 6 or so individual days across the entire winter they've had to stay in. For example this today was the first day they've had to stay in as we were due utter gales this afternoon and have had more or less rain each day for about the last fortnight. 

Personally I wouldn't go anywhere that wouldn't allow winter turnout.


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## Bertolie (18 November 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			Spot on, as was Be Positive's reply, and a very real reason why many yards do not do DIY.

Let use the simple figure of £100pcm, so £1200 a year.

Post and rail is £10/12 a metre.  Dump of hardcore, top dress planings and the digger to do a wet gateway £350.  Contractor in at spring time to harrow and rectify.  Fert. Replace the snapped off gate post which would not have happened had the gate not been left swinging in the wind. £80.  Bit of creosote splashed around the stables, water bill, power bill, chewed stable door, muck heap spread or remove etc etc.
		
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I pay £100 pm DIY livery.
Post and rail - we have to do our own fencing!
Dump of hardcore, too dress plantings to do a wet gate way - no hardcore allowed, like it or lump it!
Harrow and fertilise - not a chance (might get my paddocks rolled if my son borrows the tractor and roller and does it for me!)
Replace the gate - yes this would get done 
Creosote or paint for stables - only if you do it yourself (at your own cost)
Water bill,  power bill, muck heap spread - yes!

Seems to me that my (totally DIY) YO does ok (though I stand to be corrected).


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## ILuvCowparsely (18 November 2015)

Round here only one yard I knew of restricted daily turnout ( back in the 1990's )   our horses go out 8 hours most day in winter  but less at weekends as we have a lie in.  That said all the owners agree to this as even by the least they have at least 6 hours,  I would never be at a yard that restricted turnout  unless there was a bl00dy good reason like they don't have any fields and are in  a town.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (18 November 2015)

Bertolie said:



			I pay £100 pm DIY livery.
Post and rail - we have to do our own fencing!
Dump of hardcore, too dress plantings to do a wet gate way - no hardcore allowed, like it or lump it!
Harrow and fertilise - not a chance (might get my paddocks rolled if my son borrows the tractor and roller and does it for me!)
Replace the gate - yes this would get done 
Creosote or paint for stables - only if you do it yourself (at your own cost)
Water bill,  power bill, muck heap spread - yes!

Seems to me that my (totally DIY) YO does ok (though I stand to be corrected).
		
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I'm with you. Two acres ( that otherwise would not be utililised) & a stable for £150 pcm. The YO does FA. I maintain my paddock, fencing & stable.


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## be positive (18 November 2015)

Bertolie said:



			I pay £100 pm DIY livery.
Post and rail - we have to do our own fencing!
Dump of hardcore, too dress plantings to do a wet gate way - no hardcore allowed, like it or lump it!
Harrow and fertilise - not a chance (might get my paddocks rolled if my son borrows the tractor and roller and does it for me!)
Replace the gate - yes this would get done 
Creosote or paint for stables - only if you do it yourself (at your own cost)
Water bill,  power bill, muck heap spread - yes!

Seems to me that my (totally DIY) YO does ok (though I stand to be corrected).
		
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If you could find a couple of acres to purchase with a building on in an accessible location it would probably cost in the region of £50k, if it was attached to a house it would be worth far more, if you put down a 10% deposit the £100 per month you pay would not cover the month repayments which would be around £150+ per month before any addition costs, it is why so many yards do end up over stocked for the land available, if the YO is paying a mortgage/ rent £100 per month for DIY is going to barely make a dent in the outgoings.

A small yard in Glos, link below, £200k for 10 acres no arena and just 4 boxes, 10% deposit will leave a monthly payment of over £600 per month if you could get a mortgage on it, to make a return by renting it out each box would need to be £200 per month and that would probably still leave the owner out of pocket not to mention wear and tear to the buildings and fencing.
http://www.ruralscene.co.uk/media/uploads/properties/THEPADDOCKS_JN3744.pdf


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## Sussexbythesea (19 November 2015)

be positive said:



			If you could find a couple of acres to purchase with a building on in an accessible location it would probably cost in the region of £50k, if it was attached to a house it would be worth far more, if you put down a 10% deposit the £100 per month you pay would not cover the month repayments which would be around £150+ per month before any addition costs, it is why so many yards do end up over stocked for the land available, if the YO is paying a mortgage/ rent £100 per month for DIY is going to barely make a dent in the outgoings.

A small yard in Glos, link below, £200k for 10 acres no arena and just 4 boxes, 10% deposit will leave a monthly payment of over £600 per month if you could get a mortgage on it, to make a return by renting it out each box would need to be £200 per month and that would probably still leave the owner out of pocket not to mention wear and tear to the buildings and fencing.
http://www.ruralscene.co.uk/media/uploads/properties/THEPADDOCKS_JN3744.pdf

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You would surely be an idiot to purchase such a property if your aim was to profit from it though. Most people buy a property such as this for themselves and their horses and then try and make some money to subsidise it. No point in whinging about it when the figures don't stack up to start with. Also you forget that properties normally at least over the long term appreciate in value so this in itself is profit. If your also living there then you've paid for it whether or not you take on any liveries. 

A lot of yards are run by families over generations or as a side-line to farming so their mortgages were paid off years ago or are small compared to the value of the property.


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## be positive (19 November 2015)

Sussexbythesea said:



			You would surely be an idiot to purchase such a property if your aim was to profit from it though. Most people buy a property such as this for themselves and their horses and then try and make some money to subsidise it. No point in whinging about it when the figures don't stack up to start with. Also you forget that properties normally at least over the long term appreciate in value so this in itself is profit. If your also living there then you've paid for it whether or not you take on any liveries. 

A lot of yards are run by families over generations or as a side-line to farming so their mortgages were paid off years ago or are small compared to the value of the property.
		
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I was just making the point that people seem to think most YO's are doing well out of DIY at £100 per month when in reality there will be no return on the capital investment and little left after other bills are paid, the livery is getting the use of a facility that they would have to pay considerably more for if they had to purchase, unlike houses where renting is generally higher than buying giving some return on the investment for landlords as well as a possible increase in value.
If the mortgages are paid off then yes they are in a good position but many yards do have to make a profit to pay the bills even if there is no mortgage/ rent to be paid first, livery is generally very cheap in comparison to most businesses, if there is an appreciation in capital value  then the YO should benefit, not the liveries who have taken no risk and to an extent have their hobby subsidised.


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## Cocorules (19 November 2015)

Agree with be positive.  You let a residential property and expect to get a return on that which factors in the cost of purchase and the capital and income return.  If I let my house and my separate land per £ spent on purchase I would get far more for letting the house.  My land is great as it has direct access to brilliant off road riding has post and rail and shelters and is maintained.  My house is a dive by comparison.

YOs should be charging far more but until they do so collectively and actually run it as a proper business they will not get the return they need to keep it at a decent standard and provide the facilities liveries want.

In time either this will happen and there will be fewer horses or horses will live with far less turnout.


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## Dolsey1 (19 November 2015)

I think it's more common in some parts of the country than others. I think it depends on how many horses are on the yard and how overstocked the YO has the fields.

DIY livery these days is just not worth offering for the YO!


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## unicornystar (19 November 2015)

applecart14 said:



As per normal on this forum, this post has appeared to be turning into a bitching fest!! Yes people are allowed to have their own opinions but not at the detriment of others.

Why are people so judgemental of others?  Why is it always the same few people, time and time again?

Mud fever is caused by the bacterial agent dermatophilus congolensis and can happen to any horse at any time.  Yes its usually found in muddy fields but it is also found living on the skin of horses and develops into mud fever by prolonged wet conditions, not necessarily mud, long grass can cause it too.  It can be caused by abrasions on the skin through sand as well as dirt which allows the bacteria in. Cattle sheep and goats are also affected!

So its not always a case of owners being negligent in turning horses out into thick mud paddocks!
		
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totally agree!!! mud fever can strike mid summer on dry paddocks like you say it is bacterial......


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## unicornystar (19 November 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Not sure who you think is being slagged off all the time Applecart .
One poster said that there was no excuse for horses not being turned out eight hours which I thought was silly because I can think of dozens and dozens of reasons why a horse could not be out for eight hours a day everyday ,but they where not aiming it at anyone in particular .
I think the interesting thing here is how people think we get round the fact that land is expensive ,many yards don't have enough and what you do about it .
		
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applecart twas me who made a comment  and as goldenstar says it wasn't aimed at having a go at anyone, it's just something I am passionate about I suppose.....land is as goldstar says at a premium and more housing will indeed be built as time goes on.....myself and goldenstar have not "fallen out" it is debate/adult and in real life if either of us was at the side of the road in trouble with horses, we would undoubtedly help each other!!  

Forums can be judgemental as it is easy to rant on, but never take it to heart, there are far worse things in life and if something upsets you then ignore or avoid it, only a few people on here actually know me and their opinion is all I care about.  Horses are bloomin emotive at the best of times!!!!!


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## Goldenstar (19 November 2015)

Where did anyone say people whose horses got mud fever where negilent .
And it certainly can have a fungal element I know this because the land in the valley where I live is notorious for it .


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## Goldenstar (19 November 2015)

Having differing views and expressing them is not falling out or having a bitchfest .
It's  IMO one of best about the forum it makes you think about what you do and why


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## Meowy Catkin (19 November 2015)

I just wanted to say that I hope I didn't upset you GS when I said that I found your post funny. It was meant in good spirits (which can be hard to convey in a forum post).


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## Goldenstar (19 November 2015)

Faracat said:



			I just wanted to say that I hope I didn't upset you GS when I said that I found your post funny. It was meant in good spirits (which can be hard to convey in a forum post).
		
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It's very kind of you to post that but not necessary .


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## *Sahara (19 November 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			We are a small yard and have less land than horses, our land is VERY well maintained and we have loads of grass.  I would NEVER restrict my horses turnout so I could rest the fields as I don't need too as I always have two resting at anyone time.   IF and that is a big IF the land by some miracle stops coping then I would get rid of a livery or two.

We have been told we have one of the best grazing around and I do not want our reputation to get to "oh don't go there their grazing is cr4p "
   A field is a normal place for a horse to stretch his legs - eat- snooze and have fun.  Sorry I would find somewhere else.


  If this yard is worried about their grazing , then they ought to sit down and work out why it is not coping .  If it is the owner does not like fields getting trashes, then maybe they should think if a yard is what they want as winter does trash it to a degree but it bounces backs  after a few months
		
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Agree with this completely ^


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## Queenbee (19 November 2015)

Its never been something I've experienced but then I would never move to a yard that had this policy, moreover I would move from any yard that tried to instill this policy.  We are lucky down in Cornwall... lots of land even with lots of horses!  Ben would not mind it so much as he loves his stable, but he also loves a good hoon around the field!    Even though I can turn him out and 20 mins later he will ask to come in, if I leave the yard he will go back to eating grass.  My old mare hated being stabled and I could not imagine what 23 hrs stalled would have done to her.


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## sport horse (19 November 2015)

I am in the South East, some 20 miles from Central London but outside the M25 and maybe we are just beginning to see a foretaste of what is to come. 
I can count, without trying, at least 10 yards within 8 miles that have closed in the last 12 months - a total of  nearly 175 livery spaces
I know of more than 5 others that are likely to go within the next few months.  All being redeveloped for housing.
The remaining yards have pretty much given up DIY - I do not know of one yard within 4 miles of here that takes DIY and there were probably at least 10.
I have my own farm so very lucky. I used to take one or two liveries but no longer do, and I have no plans to take any again.


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## *Sahara (19 November 2015)

Enfys said:





applecart14 said:





Enfys said:



			Take it with an entire block of salt and move on, very few people on here actually know each other, or individual horses, circumstances etc, so most things that are said on here are just personal experiences and opinions. Sometimes it is just a lot of hooey and maybe those people read a lot, watch You Tube and actually live in some dreary high rise apartment block in a smoky city and are just keyboard warriors, whatever, if someone really gets you down just imagine some fat, wrinkly person with their pants around their ankles on the loo, not so scarey or perfect then.  Works for me 

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You made my day Enfys 

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