# Long toes



## parsley (22 August 2006)

The farrier has left my boy with really long toes at the front.  I thought they looked too long but decided that the farrier knew best.  We had to visit the vet last week and one of the first things she asked was whether he was very overdue for the farrier.  I explained that he wasn't and she has advised me to get the farrier out again and to ask him to cut the toes and heels back as he is putting little weight directly on his foot as they are so long.

I feel horribly embaressed that I have let my horse become basically a bit deformed but I wonder if leaving the toes long is a new "farrier fashion" as this person has a good reputation generally, which is why I let him get on with it?  If so - why do they do it?


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## katelarge (22 August 2006)

I wish I knew! I didn't really realise how long mine were while I was at another yard where the one farrier did every horse. Now I have changed yards to a place with a different farrier, and my horse's feet have literally halved in size! I was amazed to see the change in shape, his front feet are now almost completely circular instead of basically just liek hind feet!


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## KatB (22 August 2006)

It does seem to be a prob i've come across recently too, we had a VERY well known farriers apprentice show our horses for a while, one of them went in for x-ray and was very unbalanced in the fact the heels were too low and toe too long  
	
	
		
		
	


	




It annoyes me as we do put the trust in out farriers, yet they seem to be able to take the micheal when we're not watching them!! Best thing to do is question the farrier to why theyve chosen to shoe like that, and get them to correct it. Am i correct in thinking you've got the coloured cob? My cob used to get very flat, and I ended up asking for roled toes to pull them bck, worked a treat as he seemed to grow ALOT of toe very quickly!!


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## parsley (22 August 2006)

I know what you mean - during the first couple of days the YO asked me if I wanted an urgent farrier appointment as the farrier (the one I have) was on the yard - very blithley I said no as he wasn't due - after talking to the vet I had a chat with her and she said that she thought he must be massively overdue for shoeing (which is why she asked if I wanted him to see the farrier - I just missed the hint! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




).  Unfortunatly the farrier isn't replying to give me an appointment although I know he does them on Sundays.


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## parsley (22 August 2006)

Yes - he is a big cob with very big feet.  He is not particularly flat but I can see that the weight of his leg does not go down to his foot anymore - it must be like wearing shoes that are very long in the front but with the heels cut under to half way along the foot.  I know that the farrier has a good reputation and thought that he must have a good reason for doing this - even though I am going to ask him to rethink his approach.


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## KatB (22 August 2006)

Are the shoes set back a decent way, eg offering support to the heels? If not there running the risk of ending up flat and unbalanced, this puts ALOT of strain on the foot structure and tendons and ligaments in the leg.  Then again, look at the angle throught the pastern and hoof from the fetlock. If its a straight line at 45 degrees you shouldnt be too far off the mark.


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## parsley (22 August 2006)

No - I think that this is what the vet didn't like as the shoes don't extend beyond the heel.  The YO said that the feed were "broken backed"


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## katelarge (22 August 2006)

Although my old farrier said he didn't like shoes that extend behind the heel as they created a "lever effect" and rather than supporting the heels woudl in fact make them worse...not that I can pretend to understand!


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## parsley (22 August 2006)

No - nor can I!  I'll have a chat with him when he comes


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## miamibear (22 August 2006)

I really dont think there is any excuse or reason for allowing a horses hooves to get this long! Sorry parsley (not a dig at you - at farrier 
	
	
		
		
	


	




)

My horse had long ish hooves when i got him and were labelled broken backwards hoof pastern axis which is what you are talking about.

This type of hoof over time can put so much stress on the internal bones and joint fluid that - well in my horses case he ended up with arthritis in his coffin joint at 6!! I had only had him 3 months before he had to have x rays and then be on a joint supplement for the rest of his life with careful shoeing (egg bars to start with)

In addition to this its much harder to repair a broken hoof axis than to mess it up! It takes a long time to get them back right especially if they are underrun heels too.

Its a really serious issue and i wouldnt be leaving it any longer to change farriers and get someone decent out who knows about why hooves should be pared back and toes kept short. 

Some horses do have poor confimation which doesnt help. My friends horse is an appaloosa and can be left 13 weeks and his toes get long but never broken axis, if i leave Red too long he gets a broken axis.

All im saying is be very careful, i know what its like to trust the professionals and be let down. Dont want you to end up with the problems i had.

Hope that offers a bit more info, if you need any more, i did extensive research on this condition when i had my boy, just pm me.

Again im sorry this isnt a dig at you parsley at all


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## sally2008 (22 August 2006)

Personally, I think it's been a gradual progression and has become more and more the norm over a long period of time and many farriers seem reluctant to address this issue.  I'm all for compulsory continued professional education so that their standards are at least maintained.  

I had often wondered why the horses in old photographs and paintings had such "dinky" looking feet compared to what I was used to seeing.  My farrier tells me that they had much shorter toes as a result of being shod more frequently due to doing far more work than most of todays equines. 

I agree that it's only when you see and learn about properly balanced and shod feet that you start to appreciate the strain that the long toe / low heel syndrome causes.  It's no wonder there are so many "walking wounded" out there.


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## miamibear (22 August 2006)

Its shocking Sally and as i am sure you appreciate once having had a horse with this kind of problem i am obsessed with feet and farriers 
	
	
		
		
	


	













I have never been so obsessed about my horses feet before, i find it distressing when i see a horse with long toes as i know the damage it can do.

It is most definately in my opinion a progressional thing but unfortunately not having to research these things horse owners trust their farriers and dont have a clue about how the hooves should look - and to be honest why should they when they are paying a professional to do it for them?!?!

I agree there should be spot checks and continual professional development - there are for most other professional jobs and why should this be any different. Less experienced horse owners need protecting from this type of thing in my opinion!

Im just in the process of changing farriers (again) because the current one is getting too money hungry and trying to fit so many horses in he either misses appointments or takes 15 mins to do a full set (no im not joking) and i dont believe they are properly balanced. He can shoe well if he takes his time but unfortunately isnt doing so!

Hopefully new farrier will be much better!


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## sally2008 (22 August 2006)

Eeek!  I'm not surprised you are looking for a new farrier - the 15 minute a set type frighten me witless!  I hope your new one turns out to be everything that you and your new ned need.

As horse owners I do think we have a responsibility to ask questions when we don't understand or like what our farriers are doing.  I also wish more people would choose there farriers on more important criteria than price - I hear lots grumbling about paying £80 a set for a guy with a lifetime of experience who takes at least an hour to do a thorough and professional job - seems many are happy to pay £50 for 15/20 minutes work from a "tyre-changer" (as my farrier calls them), but if you convert that to £'s per hour, I know who's actually getting better value for money and a superior job done!


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## Nari (22 August 2006)

In fairness to farriers though (&amp; I'm not saying this is what's happened in Parsley's case!) it is very difficult for them to do a good job &amp; keep the toe short enough if the owner doesn't have the horse shod often enough.

My horse has poor feet &amp; atendancy to long toes so he's shod every four weeks. Costly but it means his feet are kept in balance &amp; the problem is controlled. So many people think I'm mad though - comments include "he can't have worn them out in that time", "why don't you wait until they're loose?", "he wouldn't have a farrier every 4 weeks in the wild" &amp; "his feet always look small because you have them done so often".  I can see why farriers get frustrated!

I had a friend who had a nice little TB with good feet for his breed, when she got him. She would only have his shod when he'd lost a couple of shoes &amp; bragged that she could make a set last 12-13 weeks. She used the same farrier as me &amp; he'd politely tell her off, explain the damage she was doing &amp; ask her to have him done more often but she wouldn't &amp; as she'd let them get so long each time he couldn't get them back as far. Eventually he started having all sorts of back &amp; leg problems but she still wouldn't get anything done even though the vet &amp; physio were giving her the same advice. She moved yard in the end so I don't know what happened but the last I saw of him he was a shadow of his old self. Not the farrier's fault though


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## sally2008 (22 August 2006)

I can sympathise as I often get the same type of comments thrown at me - mine is done every 6 weeks without fail.  I can't understand the ignorance of people seem to want to leave it as long as possible between shoeings without a care for the balance of the poor bl**dy horses feet! 

The story of your friends horse greatly saddens me as I find it very familiar.  There was a girl at my yard whose horses' hind toes were so long it stood like a laminitic and struggled to even walk - her reason for not doing anything about it was that he was 14 and she didn't think she should change anything at his time of life (yes REALLY!).  Again, the vet and chiro told her the same thing but she just didn't want to hear it.  I was tearing my hair out in lumps!


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## parsley (22 August 2006)

Thanks for all your comments - I will have a chat with him when he comes - as I say he seems to have a good reputation and takes his time over them.  I will try and find out what he thinks - and maybe I need to have him done more often than 6 weeks!


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## Fiona (22 August 2006)

Parsley - it has just occured to me that your copb may be similar to our grey mare.  SHe is not a cob, but is an IDx, with lots of bone.  Whether because she wasn't seen by the farrier often enough at a young age (we got her at three), the year she was 4, she would go suddenly lame (like you stubbing your toe, which would resolve over the next few days).  WHen we took her to the vet, he advised that toes were too long.  She had 2 sets of natural balance, then has been shod with quarter clip shoes set well back (every four weeks) since.  SHe has never had this problem since, so can only assume that her shoeing was at fault.  Good luck, we have been eventing and hunting this mare for three years, and she has been great.

Will try to attach a photo of how short her toes have to be...








Fiona


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## guisbrogal (22 August 2006)

This is exactly what has happened to my friends horse. he is 11 and has arthritis of the coffin joints and ringbone all from being shod too long in the toe. The pastern axis was broken for so long that all the bones in his legs and feet have moved.

She has been told he cannot ever jump again and is about to find out if he can even be hacked. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Please get farrier to redo your neddies feet


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## parsley (22 August 2006)

hes coming out at 8.30 tommorow!


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## miamibear (23 August 2006)

Totally agree with you Nari. Unbelieveable the amount of time leave their horses, 6 weeks is long enough for me!


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## miamibear (23 August 2006)

Really if the job is done properly there should be no reason for your pony to be done more often than 6 weeks unless he has a specific problem.

Hope you get to the bottom of it


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