# WWYD Collies, Milbemax Wormer and Vet?



## Arizahn (8 July 2014)

Yesterday we went to the vet for a quick health check on our two dogs, both of whom are part Smooth Coated Collie. They are both due to be wormed this month, and so we had them weighed and purchased wormer from the vet, expecting it to be the usual Drontal. However he prescribed Milbemax instead. It didn't click whilst at the surgery, but on the way home I recalled reading that certain collie type dogs react badly to this wormer. 

I haven't given the Milbemax to either dog yet btw, and I don't actually feel safe doing so. Vet is unfortunately closed until the 16th July for his annual holiday so can't contact him until then, and am reluctant to call the emergency clinic over worming treatment queries. Neither dog is showing signs of having worms etc, and they are on a regular worming/flea treatment cycle. No mention of heartworm or lungworm outbreaks, and no testing offered for these either, so quite confused as to the Milbemax. 

Would it be reasonable to consult another vet in the meantime for advice? We moved recently and were considering finding someone more local anyhow to avoid long car journeys in the summer and in case of emergency, as current vet is now thirty plus miles from us...

<freeze dried organic dog treats for those who got this far>


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## jrp204 (8 July 2014)

I would wait until he comes back, its just over a week so not too long.


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## Arizahn (8 July 2014)

jrp204 said:



			I would wait until he comes back, its just over a week so not too long.
		
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Thanks, now to avoid Google in case it finds anything else for me to be worried about... 

I am confused though. He's always given us Drontal before. Oh well. I'll ask him next week and update once I know!


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## Aru (8 July 2014)

mibemax is actually licensed for collies that are ivermectin sensitive..ie carrying the mdri gene. Its just important to get the dose right as they have a lower overdose threshold but if your vet prescribed them the dose for their weight but you should be safe enough. 
Avoiding using other mectin containing products ie spot ons(stonghold) on the same day is occasionally recommended on small dogs with this issues just to be on the safe side.

You can test for the gene btw
http://www.animalgenetics.eu/Canine/Canine-disease/canine-MDR1-multi-drug-resistance.html

milbemax is getting more popular now as it is now licensed to prevent lungworm which is growing into a hugh problem.


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## Alec Swan (8 July 2014)

Blanket worming,  and 'just in case',  is promoted by the manufacturers of the chemical involved,  and those who would sell it to you, ...... Your Vet!

Do your dogs appear to be 'wormy',  by appearance?  Have you,  upon inspecting your dog's stools,  noticed any evidence of gut parasites?  Have you taken in a stool sample and requested a faecal egg count?  

If the answer to the above questions is a resounding 'No',  then regular worming is unnecessary and it's only another route for someone to sell you more,  of what neither you,  or your dog,  need!

Alec.

ets,  and having typed,  I've now read of Aru's post,  and whilst I wouldn't contradict a qualified Vet,  I would point out,  and I'd hope with agreement,  that routine worming,  not just for dogs but for all livestock,  has its risks.  When dogs appear to be in good health,  would not an egg count be the better way froward? a.


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## Aru (8 July 2014)

egg count would be better but not everywhere offers this service. I don't know any vets in my region that do..perhaps the collage does.

The main reason routining worming is so promoted is because roundworms(very common in dogs) can be transferred to humans esp children(as most normal adults do not put things that have been on the ground in their mouths!)
Its quite rare to have issues from a human picking up roundworms..but when they happen they can be nasty(blindness brain damage etc) So regular worming of pet dogs reduces the risks to humans.


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## blackcob (8 July 2014)

Arizahn said:



			Yesterday we went to the vet for a quick health check on our two dogs, both of whom are part Smooth Coated Collie.
		
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Smooth coated collie or actual Smooth Collie? My understanding is that the MDR1 gene is most closely associated with rough and smooth collies and not usually border collies, though as above you can now test for it if you've any concerns. 

Our practice has seen an increase in confirmed lungworm cases and at least one fatality that I'm aware of. There is now a fairly cheap snap test available for lungworm (IIRC worm egg counts can produce false negatives for lungworm and requires three consecutive samples).


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## Alec Swan (8 July 2014)

blackcob said:



			........ There is now a fairly cheap snap test available for lungworm (IIRC worm egg counts can produce false negatives for lungworm and requires three consecutive samples).
		
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How is this 'snap test'  achieved?  From where is the sample taken?

Alec.


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## satinbaze (8 July 2014)

A friends dog died 10 days ago from lung worm, very suddenly and am adult dog. I am now changing my view on worming and the girls are getting monthly milbamax as a preventative. Confirmed lung worm in Nottingham


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## blackcob (8 July 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			How is this 'snap test'  achieved?  From where is the sample taken?

Alec.
		
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Couple of drops of blood, results in 20 minutes.


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## Alec Swan (8 July 2014)

satinbaze said:



			A friends dog died 10 days ago from lung worm, very suddenly and am adult dog. I am now changing my view on worming and the girls are getting monthly milbamax as a preventative. Confirmed lung worm in Nottingham
		
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The problem is that it's the routine,  'Whether they need it or not' worming regime that builds up an immunity to the commercial wormers.  That's not within the animal,  but within the family group of parasites.  All gut parasites are fiendishly clever,  even though they have no brain(!),  as such.  Just as with our own meat,  bred and grown for human consumption,  and specifically poultry and pork,  and when we consider that they are fed a daily diet of A/Bs,  and from birth,  is it any wonder that we now have a medical profession who are wondering where we're going to turn next,  such is the growing resistance to A/Bs?  Wormers are in a similar boat!



blackcob said:



			Couple of drops of blood, results in 20 minutes. 

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Thanks,  when I next take a dog in for any routine work,  I'll ask for a worm count from a blood test.  It'll be interesting,  and I'll report back!

Alec.


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## twiglet84 (8 July 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			The problem is that it's the routine,  'Whether they need it or not' worming regime that builds up an immunity to the commercial wormers.  That's not within the animal,  but within the family group of parasites.  All gut parasites are fiendishly clever,  even though they have no brain(!),  as such.  Just as with our own meat,  bred and grown for human consumption,  and specifically poultry and pork,  and when we consider that they are fed a daily diet of A/Bs,  and from birth,  is it any wonder that we now have a medical profession who are wondering where we're going to turn next,  such is the growing resistance to A/Bs?  Wormers are in a similar boat!



Thanks,  when I next take a dog in for any routine work,  I'll ask for a worm count from a blood test.  It'll be interesting,  and I'll report back!

Alec.
		
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Its not a worm count Alec its either a Positive of Negative for Lungworm. We have seen lots of cases of lungworm in the South East x


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## Alec Swan (8 July 2014)

twiglet84 said:



			Its not a worm count Alec its either a Positive of Negative for Lungworm. We have seen lots of cases of lungworm in the South East x
		
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When I go in then I'll be better prepared.  I will ask.  Thank you and blackcob too,  for the explanation.

Alec.


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## Arizahn (8 July 2014)

Aru said:



			mibemax is actually licensed for collies that are ivermectin sensitive..ie carrying the mdri gene. Its just important to get the dose right as they have a lower overdose threshold but if your vet prescribed them the dose for their weight but you should be safe enough. 
Avoiding using other mectin containing products ie spot ons(stonghold) on the same day is occasionally recommended on small dogs with this issues just to be on the safe side.

You can test for the gene btw
http://www.animalgenetics.eu/Canine/Canine-disease/canine-MDR1-multi-drug-resistance.html

milbemax is getting more popular now as it is now licensed to prevent lungworm which is growing into a hugh problem.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for this Aru  No spot on products being used, I comb for fleas and spray the house instead, which works very well.



blackcob said:



			Smooth coated collie or actual Smooth Collie? My understanding is that the MDR1 gene is most closely associated with rough and smooth collies and not usually border collies, though as above you can now test for it if you've any concerns. 

Our practice has seen an increase in confirmed lungworm cases and at least one fatality that I'm aware of. There is now a fairly cheap snap test available for lungworm (IIRC worm egg counts can produce false negatives for lungworm and requires three consecutive samples).
		
Click to expand...

Actual Smooth Collie. Older dog is Smooth Collie cross Kelpie, the other is mostly Labrador.

Anyhow, I got in touch with his assistant. There has been a hookworm outbreak in that area and the vets have been told to presribe Milbemax because of this. We have moved but we did used to walk them regularly where the outbreak is so better safe I guess.


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