# Fox cubs found in a barn near Middleton Hunt kennels



## Tiddlypom (11 June 2015)

Saw a piece about this on the national BBC TV news tonight. 'Police are investigating after footage of 16 fox cubs held in a barn near to hunt kennels emerged.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33100242

Cannon fodder for hounds, or a plant by antis? Another explanation?  Hmmm.


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## kathantoinette (11 June 2015)

Yes I read this.  Naughty was my first thought. A plant by antis didn't cross my mind!


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## Tiddlypom (11 June 2015)

kathantoinette said:



			Yes I read this.  Naughty was my first thought.
		
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And mine.


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## Goldenstar (11 June 2015)

It's not naughty it's disgusting .


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## Judgemental (11 June 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Saw a piece about this on the national BBC TV news tonight. 'Police are investigating after footage of 16 fox cubs held in a barn near to hunt kennels emerged.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33100242

Cannon fodder for hounds, or a plant by antis? Another explanation?  Hmmm.
		
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Oh what a load old rubbish - so what a few cubs in a barn.

16, just shows how this flea infested vermin is breeding unchecked. Vermin that when mature, defecate on lawns and in children's play areas.

If you know of a restaurant that has their vegetables and salad goods delivered overnight and left on the doorstep, be very cautious because of Foxes urinating on the goods! That goes for bottles of milk left on the doorstep from an early hours delivery.

It's about time folk started to face up to the realisms of Foxes and their disgusting habits.


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## fburton (12 June 2015)

So why were they raising disgusting vermin?


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## Fellewell (12 June 2015)

Where there is an overpopulation of breeding foxes in one area, vixens will be vying for scant supplies to feed their young. 

There is no close season on shooting foxes so many of the vixens will be shot by outside agencies leaving cubs to starve.

Autumn Hunting begins when cubs are fully grown. This is a humane means of dispersal,conservation and balance. The need for culling randomly by shooting/poisoning would not be needed.
It is becoming ever clearer that an even distribution of healthy foxes cannot be maintained under this ban.


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## Clodagh (12 June 2015)

Fellewell, what has that got to do with the hunt raising cubs? Or are you agreeing that perhaps they were only saving the young from certain death as the vixen had been shot?


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## Judgemental (12 June 2015)

This whole scenario has spectacularly backfired on the Anti's as a contrivance but more importantly, it goes to show how the ban or Stupid 2004 Hunting Act allows foxes to breed and proliferate without proper checks and balances.

I still find it incredible that there were SIXTEEN (16). How on 'earth' (do you like the pun) were they obtained if they were put there by those allegedly wanting them for sport. 

The only way beyond the breeding cycle of vixens and I say vixens plural, they could have been obtained, is trapping in urban areas. 

I see the BBC carried a report, well what can you expect - "they would say that wouldn't they".


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## Fellewell (12 June 2015)

Clodagh said:



			Fellewell, what has that got to do with the hunt raising cubs? Or are you agreeing that perhaps they were only saving the young from certain death as the vixen had been shot?
		
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I can't really comment on hearsay and speculation but I can suggest natural reasons for a glut of cubs.


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## Tiddlypom (12 June 2015)

Judgemental said:



			This whole scenario has spectacularly backfired on the Anti's as a contrivance but more importantly, it goes to show how the ban or Stupid 2004 Hunting Act allows foxes to breed and proliferate without proper checks and balances.
		
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It's spectacularly backfired, Judgemental, but on the pro hunt lobby, not the antis.

There is video footage of a man who is apparently employed by the Middleton Hunt entering the barn. He has been arrested but not charged. Keeping fox cubs in a barn is not illegal, as long as their basic needs are met.




















Initially I thought that the video must be a set up, but apparently not. 

I am sure that the farmers who allow the hunt to access their land to control this vermin, will be chuffed to bits to learn of this little fox cub rearing operation.

I can only surmise what the plans were for these cubs, and none of the possibilities that I can think of are pleasant ones.

Bear in mind that I am broadly pro hunt, but I would cut all ties with any pack that indulged in such unsavoury practices.


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## Tea Drinker (12 June 2015)

I am massively profoxhunting but I too could not condone fox rearing for hunting purposes. It goes entirely against the grain of what foxhunting stands for.
I've not come across this before (be they Good Samaritans who have rescued abandoned pups or doing something far less savory....) so I think the shock at this report shows just how rare it must be.
Foxes have the potential to cause (emotional and financial) damage in the countryside so I cannot see any farmers condoning such behaviour when most of them make it their life's work to wipe out the local fox population!

That said, we have come across foxes dumped on our own lands. Even ones that have previously been operated on! And they are within a short time, on death's door, not always being equipped for life in the countryside. It might be the case that cubs born to such a mother need a helping hand to make it to a point where they can live on their own. I can honestly see that happening. Pro foxhunting people don't want to see an obliteration of foxes and nor do they condone inhumane treatment of them. Culling a load of cubs would NEVER be done. Not the "done thing". You can kill them once they are fully fledged adults but you would never, ever kill them as cubs. [Farmers would frequently not make this distinction. Foxes = lost revenue.]

When hunting was legal, I remember coming across vixens towards the end of the season. Those would always be left alone incase she was pregnant. There is (believe it or not!) a code within the foxhunting community and that includes doing what you (reasonably!) can to protect pregnant vixens and/or their offspring until it is the "right" time to hunt them.Breeding and rearing season (as it is now) is not that time and until we know the facts, it is conceivable that these cubs are being protected and kept as wild as possible (minimal human contact) until it is safe to release them.

We can second guess the intentions of the 1 or 2 people involved in this but only they know the reality of what they have been doing and why. Videos do not tell us this and it's anyone's guess as to the whys and wherefores.


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## Cinnamontoast (17 June 2015)

I cannot imagine any good reason for 16 cubs to be kept like this


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## So? (18 June 2015)

Fellewell said:



			Where there is an overpopulation of breeding foxes in one area, vixens will be vying for scant supplies to feed their young. 

There is no close season on shooting foxes so many of the vixens will be shot by outside agencies leaving cubs to starve.

Autumn Hunting begins when cubs are fully grown. This is a humane means of dispersal,conservation.
		
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The last time I autumn hunted, which at the time was called 'cubbing' before it was rebranded with a less sensitive name,  it consisted of ringing a wood with people on horseback, getting those people to talk loudly or smack their boots with their whips, to ensure that the cubs stayed inside the wood, then putting in a pack of hounds to kill them.

That is probably the fate that awaits this lot.

More humane to have knocked them on the head when they were found, surely?


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## Alec Swan (18 June 2015)

Tea Drinker said:



			.. . Culling a load of cubs would NEVER be done. Not the "done thing". You can kill them once they are fully fledged adults but you would never, ever kill them as cubs. [Farmers would frequently not make this distinction. Foxes = lost revenue.]

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I've never quite understood the distinction whereby foxes = lost revenue.  For the few who lamb-out and in wild country,  then they may well lose a sickly lamb or two to a fox,  but by and large,  and for us on lower ground,  the fox presents no threat,  whatsoever.  Mostly,  those who farm in the shires,  regardless of whether they keep sheep or not,  honestly view the fox as a bit of an irrelevance.  Those who run shooting on a commercial basis will target their local foxes,  but most shoots these days simply rear another 500 birds to cover the wild bird losses!

I do agree with you though that most who have the well being of the fox at heart,  would never condone the killing of cubs,  and as has been explained on another thread,  it's likely that it's more to do with giving the cubs a chance to grow and prosper and reproduce which is the most likely rational behind it.  That's certainly why I and others who I know,  having put a stop to the depredations of the parents,  have 'reared' - if you like,  litters of cubs by feeding them at their earth.  Of course these cubs will eventually run the risk of being hunted,  but as that's the best way of maintaining a healthy breeding stock,  so it's a way of swimming against the tide of those who would kill every fox given any opportunity,  and sadly these people do exist.

I accept that having been responsible for the death of a great many foxes over the years,  it would seem completely contradictory to assist an animal to live,  only to possibly kill it when it's mature,  and the only explanation which I can give is that,  along with a great many others,  there is no wish to eradicate foxes or kill all those that are seen,  indeed seeing the truly wild fox,  on the rare occasion when I do,  is often the highlight of my day.

Keeping cubs in a barn?  It isn't something that I would do through choice,  but then I don't know the circumstances of how they arrived.  It's quite possible that they couldn't be left in situ,  so they were taken to a place of comparative safety,  to be released when they were able to fend for themselves.  Without a clear statement of their intentions,  and from those who had the cubs,  we'll never know! 

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (18 June 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			I cannot imagine any good reason for 16 cubs to be kept like this 

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Just as I cannot imagine any good reason to kill 16 cubs upon discovery!

Alec.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (18 June 2015)

Judgemental said:



			Oh what a load old rubbish - so what a few cubs in a barn.

16, just shows how this flea infested vermin is breeding unchecked. Vermin that when mature, defecate on lawns and in children's play areas.

If you know of a restaurant that has their vegetables and salad goods delivered overnight and left on the doorstep, be very cautious because of Foxes urinating on the goods! That goes for bottles of milk left on the doorstep from an early hours delivery.

It's about time folk started to face up to the realisms of Foxes and their disgusting habits.
		
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Am apologing on behalf of all foxes 
Its about time people started to accept that foxes should be living in the countryside, but if people leave litter in urban areas they are going to urbanise, its hardly their fault. I think you will find fruit and veg should not be left exposed to dogs or any animal which might need to pee, we all have to do it. Food hygiene regulations require all fruit and veg to be kept out of reach of animals, and to be washed before eating.
I rarely see evidence of foxes defecating on lawns [I mow about 20 lawns per month], kiddies sand pits should be covered when not in use, they are attractive to dogs and to cats. 
Not sure if all 16 cubs being flea infested, my cat would be tick infested and worm infested if I did not treat it, but I am not going to start worming and de flea-ing foxes. 
I have not seen the story, seem s to be a storyline for days when there is no news. I expect someone will reduce their numbers in the traditional manner.


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## Alec Swan (18 June 2015)

A further thought;  Wondering why we assist cubs to live and with the likely outcome of being hunted,  has had me wondering too,  and remembering how last week I found a baby wood pigeon which had fallen from its nest,  so I climbed back up the tree,  and replaced it.  Why do that when I may well shoot that same pigeon in the future?  Could the reason be that just as we grow flowers,  and then cut them and put them in a vase in our house,  it's simply the pleasure that we derive from the process?  Is it nothing to do with the act of cutting flowers or killing foxes,  but that there's a larger picture which includes an involvement?  I'm really not sure,  but as it is for me,  so it may be for others! 

Alec.


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## Fellewell (18 June 2015)

So? said:



			The last time I autumn hunted, which at the time was called 'cubbing' before it was rebranded with a less sensitive name,  it consisted of ringing a wood with people on horseback, getting those people to talk loudly or smack their boots with their whips, to ensure that the cubs stayed inside the wood, then putting in a pack of hounds to kill them.

That is probably the fate that awaits this lot.

More humane to have knocked them on the head when they were found, surely?
		
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Covert work is about teaching young hounds discipline and dispersing foxes to prevent overpopulation in one area. Killing all the foxes at once would be counterproductive if they were to be hunted later.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (18 June 2015)

Fellewell said:



			Covert work is about teaching young hounds discipline and dispersing foxes to prevent overpopulation in one area. Killing all the foxes at once would be counterproductive if they were to be hunted later.
		
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Yep, that's the way its done traditionally, but apparently the not so silent majority objected to people chasing foxes across country in pink coats, so the law was changed. 
In ye olden days farmers knew where foxes were laying up and if they wanted, the hunt would come along and they would be removed in the traditional way, otherwise the farmer would just shoot them, not a difficult job.
There will always be a few foxes around even if farmers don't want the hunt and even if they don't want any foxes, but there will also always be someone who will tolerate them.
I can now admit to being one of those who surrounded a covert, tapping my boots,  and if there was a brave little cub , I never saw it untill it was too late to prevent its escape.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (18 June 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			A further thought;  Wondering why we assist cubs to live and with the likely outcome of being hunted,  has had me wondering too,  and remembering how last week I found a baby wood pigeon which had fallen from its nest,  so I climbed back up the tree,  and replaced it.  Why do that when I may well shoot that same pigeon in the future?  Could the reason be that just as we grow flowers,  and then cut them and put them in a vase in our house,  it's simply the pleasure that we derive from the process?  Is it nothing to do with the act of cutting flowers or killing foxes,  but that there's a larger picture which includes an involvement?  I'm really not sure,  but as it is for me,  so it may be for others! 

Alec.
		
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Shooting adults woodpigeon is very inefficient, best practice is to get rid of the squabs, not puting them back in their nests, but hey, we are all human......


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## Tea Drinker (18 June 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			I've never quite understood the distinction whereby foxes = lost revenue. 

Alec.
		
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Alec,

We sublet land for a an outdoor pig breading unit. When foxes go plundering, it is lost revenue to the pig farm. 
We are "lowland" farmers and surrounded by both commerical and family shoots.
I do not classify pheasant harrassing by foxes as lost revenue since that is "just" another sport but the economic damage to outdoor pig units is quite real.


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## Alec Swan (18 June 2015)

T_D,

I would never allow a dog of mine anywhere near a sow and her piglets.  Sows are the most protective of mothers and potentially dangerous!  Similarly,  I would be most surprised if a fox managed to get away with predating piglets.  A screaming piglet will have the 'pigman' looking over his shoulder,  never mind Toby! 

I would wonder if your tenant isn't exaggerating his woes in an attempt to stay any increase in his rent!  I'm sorry,  but claims that foxes are predating pigs and in a fashion likely to have any economic effect,  would stretch credulity,  a trifle!  We have many outdoor pig units here and we also have foxes in high numbers,  but the damage done by Toby,  is of little importance.  It may well be,  of course,  that your pigs differ from ours.

Alec.


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## stencilface (18 June 2015)

Having known of foxes being kept in north yorkshire for the purpose of 'training' terriers this does not surprise me.  Just despicable.


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## Tiddlypom (18 June 2015)

Screen shot from the H&H news page. Report dated 15 June.







http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news...rn-middleton-hunt-countryside-alliance-498168


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## Alec Swan (18 June 2015)

The last three paragraphs are of interest,  to wit;

Para 1:  Providing that the fox cubs concerned had adequate access to food and to water,  no criminal offence has been committed.

Para 2:  'Rescued' and they're now in a sanctuary are they?  Is the 'sanctuary' doing anything that the person keeping the cubs didn't do?  Are they to be released and so run the risk of being hunted or are the poor little mites to spend their lives in cages?

para 3:  Catching wild fox cubs and keeping them in a barn,  preparatory to release,  is NOT a criminal offence.  

I'm not condoning the actions of the person who had these cubs,  but as no criminal offence appears to have been committed,  I fail to see why the persons concerned were arrested.  A decent solicitor will wipe the floor with any charges,  unless there has been a breach of any Laws which clearly breach the conditions of the Animal Welfare Act.  Taking fox cubs,  and from the wild,  is not a criminal offence.

Alec.


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## Tiddlypom (18 June 2015)

Alec, whatever happens to the cubs now, I think we can be certain that they won't be tossed to hounds. I hope that, once old enough, they will released into the wild at a suitable locality, to take their chances.

Yep, apparently no offence has been committed, so after due questioning to establish this, the person arrested was allowed to walk. However, police need further information as to how they got in the barn, why they were there, and who put them there.

So, plenty of unanswered questions.


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## Countryman (18 June 2015)

I think its clear that this is nothing to do with fox hunting per se, and is thus a non story.


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## Alec Swan (18 June 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			Shooting adults woodpigeon is very inefficient, best practice is to get rid of the squabs, not puting them back in their nests, but hey, we are all human......
		
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It's got nothing to do with 'efficiency',  or 'best practice',  but it's all to do with our involvement,  as I suspect that you realise!  We had a litter of cubs in a bank a while back,  but I didn't tell the 'keeper.  I see the odd one about now,  but suspect that when we have stubble,  they'll be shot at night.  Efficient I'll grant you,  but after harvest they won't be doing anyone any harm so I wonder what's the point!  As you say,  we're all human!

Alec.


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## tallyho! (18 June 2015)

Judgemental said:



			Oh what a load old rubbish - so what a few cubs in a barn.

16, just shows how this flea infested vermin is breeding unchecked. Vermin that when mature, defecate on lawns and in children's play areas.

If you know of a restaurant that has their vegetables and salad goods delivered overnight and left on the doorstep, be very cautious because of Foxes urinating on the goods! That goes for bottles of milk left on the doorstep from an early hours delivery.

It's about time folk started to face up to the realisms of Foxes and their disgusting habits.
		
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I also think we ought to face up to the realism of drunkard stag do's on a night out caught doing the very same things in our cities!!!! 

I'd love to see the hunt out on a Saturday evening in Sunderland sorting out the "foxes"


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## Alec Swan (18 June 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Alec, whatever happens to the cubs now, I think we can be certain that they won't be tossed to hounds. I hope that, once old enough, they will released into the wild at a suitable locality, to take their chances.

Yep, apparently no offence has been committed, so after due questioning to establish this, the person arrested was allowed to walk. However, &#8220;police need further information as to how they got in the barn, why they were there, and who put them there.&#8221;

So, plenty of unanswered questions.
		
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Para 1:  The practice of the rspca,  so we're advised,  releasing semi-domesticated foxes in to the wild,  with no chance of any sort of life.  It isn't 'freedom' as they've not the faintest idea how to care for themselves following a diet of Chum!

Para 2:  'How they got in to the barn,  why they were there and who put them there',  are irrelevancies if there has been no criminal offence.

para 3:  What questions would you like answered?

Alec.


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## Tiddlypom (18 June 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			para 3:  What questions would you like answered?

Alec.
		
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The questions raised by the police in para 2.. Someone knows, but they aren't telling, and aren't likely to, either.

It's hardly the fault of the RSPCA, or whichever organisation currently has the cubs, that they may be semi domesticated, is it?! Its the fault of whoever put them in the barn and kept them there.


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## Alec Swan (18 June 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			The questions raised by the police in para 2.. Someone knows, but they aren't telling, and aren't likely to, either.

It's hardly the fault of the RSPCA, or whichever organisation currently has the cubs, that they may be semi domesticated, is it?! Its the fault of whoever put them in the barn and kept them there.
		
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If the person keeping the cubs is released without charge and if no criminal offences have been committed,  then the Police have no business asking questions,  or none that the previously charged person needs to answer.  The Police are officers of the Law,  they aren't a moral mirror!

If the cubs concerned,  and whoever now has them,  rears them in a semi-domesticated fashion,  then yes,  they certainly are responsible and would carry a greater degree of culpability than the person from whom they were taken.

Alec.


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## Tea Drinker (19 June 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			T_D,

I would never allow a dog of mine anywhere near a sow and her piglets.  Sows are the most protective of mothers and potentially dangerous!  Similarly,  I would be most surprised if a fox managed to get away with predating piglets.  A screaming piglet will have the 'pigman' looking over his shoulder,  never mind Toby! 

I would wonder if your tenant isn't exaggerating his woes in an attempt to stay any increase in his rent!  I'm sorry,  but claims that foxes are predating pigs and in a fashion likely to have any economic effect,  would stretch credulity,  a trifle!  We have many outdoor pig units here and we also have foxes in high numbers,  but the damage done by Toby,  is of little importance.  It may well be,  of course,  that your pigs differ from ours.

Alec.
		
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You can be very arrogant at times, Alec.
Yes, clearly our pig unit set up must be different to those in your area. Amazing. Imagine that?! 
If you would be "most surprised" to find out a fox could nab a piglet, then I would be "most surprised" if you had any hands on experience of pig breeding in a unit as large as ours.
We have a number of pens without sows where piglets are raised orphan style. We produce about 2000 piglets a month off this unit and there are plenty of rich pickings for the foxes that abound in the neighbouring forestry. 14 down one earth is the record so far.
The foxes also 'worry' the sows which is never good for pregnancy.


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## Tiddlypom (19 June 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			If the person keeping the cubs is released without charge and if no criminal offences have been committed,  then the Police have no business asking questions,  or none that the previously charged person needs to answer.  The Police are officers of the Law,  they aren't a moral mirror!
		
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The police have every right to continue asking questions if they still suspect that an offence may have been committed, or was going to be committed. They may reckon that they only have been told part of the of story about the cubs. If they get further information which is relevant, they could well rearrest the original suspect. 




			If the cubs concerned,  and whoever now has them,  rears them in a semi-domesticated fashion,  then yes,  they certainly are responsible and would carry a greater degree of culpability than the person from whom they were taken.

Alec.
		
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I imagine that whoever has the cubs now, is doing their damnedest to avoid domesticating them any more than they already were after their sojourn in the barn. The RSPCA has four dedicated wildlife centres, such as this one in Cheshire.

https://www.rspca.org.uk/local/stapeley-grange-wildlife-centre/

Hopefully the cubs will have been taken to somewhere like this, with experience of determining the best course of action to be taken. Maybe they may have to be culled. A fox who has not/cannot learn how to hunt or forage for itself may well turn rogue if released to fend for itself. Foxes are hardly an endangered species, are they?


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## Alec Swan (19 June 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

https://www.rspca.org.uk/local/stapeley-grange-wildlife-centre/

Hopefully the cubs will have been taken to somewhere like this, with experience of determining the best course of action to be taken. Maybe they may have to be culled. A fox who has not/cannot learn how to hunt or forage for itself may well turn rogue if released to fend for itself. Foxes are hardly an endangered species, are they?
		
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Foxes as individuals aren't 'rogues',  that would assume that there are those foxes which have some understanding of what's acceptable!  A Fox is a Fox,  no more or less.  I'm more than surprised to read that you consider that they may be 'culled',  when had they been left where they were,  they would have leached out of their former home,  as they would from an 'earth',  returned for feed until they were able to stand on their own feet,  and then melted in to their local environment.

Assuming that the packs local to Cheshire are aware of the 'rescue' programme of the rspca,  I'm left wondering if the charity concerned are aware that they are performing the very same service to our countryside and our vulpine population as the chap who previously held the cubs!  Do you see the irony,  or are you suggesting that the cubs should be euthanised to be certain that they never run before hounds,  and also of course,  that they never fulfil any normal purpose,  their lives?

There is evidence,  so I'm advised by an rspca inspector chum,  that adult foxes are routinely rescued and released without the faintest idea where they are,  or how to survive.  The said chum has voiced his concerns,  regarding the practice,  and within the rspca and was warned of his future employment! 

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (20 June 2015)

Tea Drinker said:



			Alec,

We sublet land for a an outdoor pig breading unit. When foxes go plundering, it is lost revenue to the pig farm. 

...
		
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Tea Drinker said:



			You can be very arrogant at times, Alec.
..! 
If you would be "most surprised" to find out a fox could nab a piglet, then I would be "most surprised" if you had any hands on experience of pig breeding in a unit as large as ours.
We have a number of pens without sows where piglets are raised orphan style. We produce about 2000 piglets a month off this unit and there are plenty of rich pickings for the foxes that abound in the neighbouring forestry. ...
		
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So we've moved from 'plundering' which would affect,  as you say,  a serious economic influence upon those who farm pigs,  to 'nabbing' which would imply the loss of the odd single piglet.  No one would deny that the odd fox has taken the odd piglet,  but as with lambs,  the young are generally dead before being taken.  I will again assure you that our vulpine population is of no (or at least very little) economic detriment,  despite the advice which you appear to rely upon.  

As for 'orphans' being reared in individual units,  most who breed pigs commercially,  will place piglets from the larger litters with those sows which have but a few.  If you trouble yourself to check,  you'll learn that sows will generally accept just about anything which relieves the discomfort of a burdensome milk supply!  Rearing piglets artificially isn't economically feasible,  and why do it when there are existing sows who will readily accept piglets which aren't actually theirs?

Do I have any factual experience of livestock?  I'm not a Landlord who gleans what they can from their tenants,  I'm a tenant farmer,  and livestock are my life.  Beyond that I'll make no claims to be an authority.

I'm sorry that you find me to be arrogant,  and can only assure you that it's one of my more desirable traits! 

Alec.


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