# Line breeding - how close is too close?



## JanetGeorge (5 June 2011)

I guess the answer relies rather heavily on whether here are any known 'problems' in the line, but how close would you go.

For example: I have a mare by Gort Boy, who is by Grey Macha.  I have a teensy hankering to use my bay stallion on her, but he is out of a mare BY Grey Macha.  Is this too close?


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## stolensilver (5 June 2011)

Personally I think that is too close but 2x3 linebreeding has been done many times, often with great success. My favourite stallion Silvermoon is 2x3 to Mahagoni and there's a stallion called Irdenkreis who is line bred to both Silvermoon's dam and his sire Kostolany. 

Perhaps the question is do you want to reproduce Grey Macha? Was he an exceptional enough stallion for this?


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## welshsporthorse (5 June 2011)

Its something that is done a hell of a lot in the welsh world of breeding. People get away with it mostof the time, even brother and sister crosses. Personally I would not want to do that , but in any breed with a smallish gene pool there is going to be common ancestry. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/pentaran+gwilym+evans
This is one cross i inadvertantly made when given a mare whose papers could not initially be found, I went then on how she looked.  Three out of four sides were almost the same.  The result was ok in this case but it is said that it only goes wrong if there was a problem initially and it comes and bites you in the bum maybe after it skips a couple of generations , however in human matings this close there can be horrible inbred genetic health problems which I dont think happens to the same extent in animal breeding.


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## Alec Swan (5 June 2011)

Whilst I have nothing to support this,  I would worry,  desperately,  about a grand sire or grand dam,  being duplicated,  on either side,  of the expected foal.

Dependent upon what I thought may be on offer,  I would go no closer that a grand sire,  or grand dam,  being any closer,  than when offered  to a great grand sire or great grand dam,  and again,  on either side of the foals lineage.

That probably makes little sense,  but I know what I mean!!  I wonder if we have any experienced geneticists out there!!  If we have,  then could they explain it all to me,  but by a simpler route than 2x3, or any other computations,  none of which I actually understand?! 

Alec.


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## KarynK (5 June 2011)

Inbreeding is how you fix type in a breed of plant or animal without it you get all sorts.  It's like a Labradoodle, as they are a first cross some are like poodles some like labs and some well!!   If you wanted to create a type a proper breed you would need to select some you like and carry on breeding them and then their offspring together, discarding the ones you did not like along the way, until you have what ever it was you wanted, but they would be inbred at that point.  But with dogs and multiple births you get there much quicker!

Yes it can go wrong but it can also go very right.  Tb's have an unwritten rule and don't normally go closer than 2x3 (Grandparent is also a great grandparent) they usually use ½  brothers/ sisters and usually inbreed on those that are also inbred.

So the x system so a 2x3 means it will have the same horse in the 2nd generation and the third, so for instance in your example a granddam or sire would be 3x3.  So the same horse appears twice in the 3rd generation of that individual.  So if a horse had that same grandparent further back as well it might be 3x3x5 so twice in the third generation and once in the fifth.

Actually a lot of people dead against it rarely look further back than the 5th generation, if they did they might be horrified on what they are unintentionally line breeding upon, influence back there soon adds up!

But in TB's a pure performance breed inbreeding has been proven to work.  A good one to look at was a US horse Big Brown 
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/big+brown
Its all coloured in for you there, but you can see that they are bringing in the inbreeding using ½  brothers and sisters.
So ½  brothers Danzig and Nureyev bring in Northern Dancer and the ½
sisters Edge and Syrian Circle bring in Damascus.  If you look these two are actually 3 parts sisters both being out of mares by Round Table.

Now Big Brown has a hidden secret, he is heavily linebred on Phalaris 7x9x9x8x8x9x7x9x7x9x9x9x9x8x9x8x9 see what I mean!!! 

Quite a complicated in breed but a very good performer resulted.  so now you have this concentrated pedigree the idea is that it is strong with many dominate genes and will pass on many good  traits to a mate (improve his mares) if outcrossed to unrelated horses, called Hybrid Vigour.  

Another cross of ND might result in another good performer but if the inbreeding has reached it's limit adding more ND blood would be a disadvantage and this is called inbreeding depression.

So it's a fine line you walk!!

I have done one where her grandfather is also her great great grandfather so 2x5 and she is very typey of that line. If it was me Janet and they are a good match, which I suspect they are, I would go for it at what would be 4x4 in the foal.


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## southsidestud (5 June 2011)

I  line breed my filly to "Nimmerdor" Way back so not a problem for me. I dont mind line breeding as long as its not really close... insecest ! heres my fillys breeding http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=298378&maxniveau=5


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## JanetGeorge (5 June 2011)

stolensilver said:



			Perhaps the question is do you want to reproduce Grey Macha? Was he an exceptional enough stallion for this?
		
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Grey Macha WAS a very good stallion - with a number of RID stallion sons - possibly the best known being Agherlow (who is a full brother to Prince's dam.)  He has also sired a number of dams of RID stallions and a lot of jumpers and show winners!  Prince's mother was a cracking brood mare - outstanding temperament - and she has produced some good brood mares for me.

In a way, though, the line breed to Grey Macha would be incidental.    Northwood Rose (by Gort Boy, by Grey Macha) is a fantastic mare herself who has produced some very good stock to my senior stallion, including a mare I would now rate as my best broodmare, and a filly who won a strong Yearling Filly class at the Breed Show.  The ONLY problem with her stock by Raj is that a lot of them get too big - despite the fact she is only 15.2hh - and a couple have what I'd call 'useful' heads!  Prince is a small, 'dainty' version of his sire - in bay!  And his dam was 16 hh - and never produced anything bigger than 16.1  So what I WANT to use is a smaller version of Raj - if you get what I mean.  

Of course, at the moment it's academic as we haven't managed to get him to jump a mare yet - he's FAR too well-mannered to let his front legs leave the ground when led!  But if he hasn't got the idea by the time Rosie has foaled, I'm pretty sure we could ground collect from him!


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## hippomaniac (6 June 2011)

We have bred a colt who's Dam is by Sadlers wells and Sire's Sire is by Sadlers Wells, he is a little cracker now a year old and fingers crossed for the track. I also stood an Arab at stud that was line bred and no problems.


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## joeanne (6 June 2011)

My miniture mare has the same stallion as her sire and grandsire.
Far too close for my liking and incidently she has only ever been able to produce one live foal.


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## Kirwil (5 August 2011)

The pony we're looking at as a companion has been inbred  His sire and dam are by the same stallion. He has the right look but he's nowhere near as healthy and hardy as the Welsh that actually came off a mountain and wasn't selectively bred (he could be inbred for all we know but what he lacks in teh way of "correct" looks he makes up for it in health  )


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## Enfys (5 August 2011)

My Amurath Baikal mare (Arab -CAHR) has Bask as her paternal grandsire and her maternal G'dam's sire and dam were BOTH by Bask. 

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/baikala+bey


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## Spook (5 August 2011)

Is it not "line" breeding when it all goes right and "in" breeding when it all goes wrong?

All pedigree animals are line/in bred are they not?

At some point it is highly likely some fresh blood will have to be introduced as an "improver".....hopefully before reaching the end of the line.

That is what has always happened, it is only in recent years we have had "pure breeds" ..years ago they were just types, be they dogs, horses or whatever.

Of course there has been the desire to fix a type, for what ever reason, but there is "close" and "too close"


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## SusannaF (6 August 2011)

Slightly random aside...

I think Big Brown's feet would put me off using him as a stallion, however good his performance! He was eventually retired due to a hoof injury, but this is how he was patched up to race:

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2008/04/big-brown-most-famous-feet-in-derby.html


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## Spook (6 August 2011)

I suppose in fixing the desired performance traits in Big Brown there is the possibility the un-desirable ones such as very poor feet were fixed too........ it would be interesting to know what his progenys feet were like.

I'm led to believe that overly close breeding results in fertility and genetalia issues..... anyone know if this is true?


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## jaclewsec (11 October 2012)

Well im interested to know in regards to  a Haflinger  mare i have.Here in Oz we are limited on the breed with only a couple of stallions.
My mare is a L line and im considering AI her .I was wondering if you think putting her in foal to her grandsire is to close. He is a lovely stallion with a lovely temperament. No vices . 

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/leetisha

 im looking at Alpine he  is the grandsire.

Your thoughts would be appreciate in helping me make the decision


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## gadetra (11 October 2012)

I have bred this:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtestmating.php?&sireid=10487123&damid=10707415

He is inbred to King of Diamonds.

The resultant foal is fine, if a little crooked but straightening out and bright and well.

Do people think this is too close?
Personally I only wnet to this stalion as she wouldn't take AI to Loughehoe Guy so got to run with this chap instead.


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## Alec Swan (11 October 2012)

Gadetra,

I was advised by a breeder of some repute,  Sam Barr,  that the Grandsire on the dam line,  should be as the Great Grandsire on the sire line.  (I did ask if it mattered if it was the other way around,  and he was a bit non-commital!!).

With King of Diamonds featuring as the pertinent horse,  that's what you've done.  I wouldn't give it a second thought!!

Alec.


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## gadetra (11 October 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Gadetra,

I was advised by a breeder of some repute,  Sam Barr,  that the Grandsire on the dam line,  should be as the Great Grandsire on the sire line.  (I did ask if it mattered if it was the other way around,  and he was a bit non-commital!!).

With King of Diamonds featuring as the pertinent horse,  that's what you've done.  I wouldn't give it a second thought!!

Alec.
		
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Phew!  I did worry and with foal being a bit bent at birth I did wonder about inbreeding...but if it's ok by Sam Barr it's ok by me. Happy days!


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## Dry Rot (11 October 2012)

Line breeding is something that should always be done in retrospect. 

As Spook has said, if it works, it's line breeding. If it doesn't, it's inbreeding.

I don't think any of the great livestock improvers published their pedigrees. Those that did, probably lied!


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## EAST KENT (12 October 2012)

Talking of which,anyone know whereabouts Stirlingdene the Highland megastar resides?And his pedigree? I have a yen to put my Highland from the same line back into the line,so first of all need to study pedigrees.I have no objection to going fairly close if the animals are exceptional.


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## RutlandH2O (12 October 2012)

Gadtra: I wouldn't call a King of Diamonds granddaughter to a King of Diamonds great grand-son inbreeding, especially when the rest of the pedigree looks outcrossed. One of the problems in close breeding over many generations (brother/sister, father/daughter, mother/son) is a resultant loss of size, even if there are no other problems. 

For years I was involved in breeding Golden Retrievers and Norwich Terriers in the US. Much of the terminology and many breeding practices in dogs come directly from the horse world. It was suggested to me, many years ago, that a successful breeding formula for setting type and quality with superior stock went like this: Let the sire of the sire be the grandsire of the dam on the dam's side.


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## gadetra (13 October 2012)

RutlandH2O said:



			Gadtra: I wouldn't call a King of Diamonds granddaughter to a King of Diamonds great grand-son inbreeding, especially when the rest of the pedigree looks outcrossed. One of the problems in close breeding over many generations (brother/sister, father/daughter, mother/son) is a resultant loss of size, even if there are no other problems. 

For years I was involved in breeding Golden Retrievers and Norwich Terriers in the US. Much of the terminology and many breeding practices in dogs come directly from the horse world. It was suggested to me, many years ago, that a successful breeding formula for setting type and quality with superior stock went like this: Let the sire of the sire be the grandsire of the dam on the dam's side.
		
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Thank you. I am relieved again!
very intersting stuff on this thread by the way.


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## Zerotolerance (13 October 2012)

Would be interested in thoughts on this pedigree:-

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10633160


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## Dry Rot (13 October 2012)

The key to successful breeding is the selection of breeding stock, not some mathematical formula or "trick". It is a matter of juggling multiple characteristics which is very difficult to do. How close you can breed a particular strain can only be learnt from experience and gathering that experience can take several generations of breeders, each passing on their knowledge to the next in line. A human lifetime is not long enough!

How close is too close? Well, if it didn't work, there are two possibilities. One, the selection of the parents was wrong. Or, two, it was too close! Considering you only get one foal (at best) when breeding horses, it is a lottery. Hence the old advice, "A wise man buys a horse. A fool breeds one".


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## hayinamanger (13 October 2012)

No technical input from me, but just to add that I knew a very good horse whose sire was also his maternal grandsire.


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## RutlandH2O (13 October 2012)

Dry Rot said:



			The key to successful breeding is the selection of breeding stock, not some mathematical formula or "trick". It is a matter of juggling multiple characteristics which is very difficult to do. How close you can breed a particular strain can only be learnt from experience and gathering that experience can take several generations of breeders, each passing on their knowledge to the next in line. A human lifetime is not long enough!

How close is too close? Well, if it didn't work, there are two possibilities. One, the selection of the parents was wrong. Or, two, it was too close! Considering you only get one foal (at best) when breeding horses, it is a lottery. Hence the old advice, "A wise man buys a horse. A fool breeds one".
		
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I believe the "mathematical formula or trick," as you put it, was predicated on the use of superior stock, not just any combination of horses. This breeding blueprint was, indeed, handed down by knowledgeable breeders with experience of generations of bloodlines. No, there are no guarantees and, as you said, breeding is a lottery. But, starting with quality stock is key...and even then, who knows? I mentioned this formula in answer to the OP's question regarding line breeding.


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## Alec Swan (13 October 2012)

Is there a "Breeding Coefficient" for equines,  as the Kennel Club assure us that there is for canines?

Alec.


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## Dry Rot (13 October 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Is there a "Breeding Coefficient" for equines,  as the Kennel Club assure us that there is for canines?

Alec.
		
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It is certainly possible to calculate an inbreeding coefficient for dogs (and any other species of pedigree livestock) but I am not sure where that gets you! The Kennel Club certainly seems to believe it will cure bad selection!

Again, it all depends on the selection of the breeding stock -- and why I have a deep suspicion of any form of competition, especially shows, which always seem to be distorted by internal politics. Sorry, but I do! Most of the improvements in domestic livestock have been brought about by breeders either working alone or in a small closed group, not by breeding champion to champion.

Inbreeding does not cause problems. There are plenty of examples of highly inbred stock that are perfect examples of physical and mental fitness. (Google Chillingham Wild Cattle). But mate a Labrador with hip displaysia with a spaniel with the same condition and don't be surprised if you end up with a litter with similar problems. Garbage in, garbage out. 

I haven't yet seen a rabbit on a bicycle -- it is two hops and a jump. If it is "too close", Mr Fox will be along in a minute or two to rectify the problem!


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## RutlandH2O (13 October 2012)

Dry Rot said:



			Inbreeding does not cause problems. There are plenty of examples of highly inbred stock that are perfect examples of physical and mental fitness. (Google Chillingham Wild Cattle). But mate a Labrador with hip displaysia with a spaniel with the same condition and don't be surprised if you end up with a litter with similar problems. Garbage in, garbage out. 

I haven't yet seen a rabbit on a bicycle -- it is two hops and a jump. If it is "too close", Mr Fox will be along in a minute or two to rectify the problem!

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Precisely!! Inbreeding definitely does NOT cause problems. It simply manifests what's already there. Some say inbreeding can be very valuable in weeding out problems within a line.

Who mentioned anything about champions?


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## Dry Rot (13 October 2012)

RutlandH2O said:



			Who mentioned anything about champions?
		
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Me!


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