# Grand National so many failed to finish!



## Dovorian (14 April 2012)

Hope they are all OK, BBC never mention other than comment on fallers.


----------



## Vetwrap (14 April 2012)

Well, they had to go round one fence where screens were up...
Never a good sign.


----------



## coss (14 April 2012)

saw a screen go up so definitely not good for one of them


----------



## Trinity Fox (14 April 2012)

Reports say synchronised and according to pete are fatallities.


----------



## Beatrice5 (14 April 2012)

Feeling particularly female and pathetic today and sat there sobbing watching the fallers and those who didn't get up and the screen finished me off  Really not my cup of tea. Felt so sad.


----------



## Dovorian (14 April 2012)

Synchronised - DEAD

I will never ever watch this race again........... heartbreaking


----------



## coss (14 April 2012)

according to pete also dead...


----------



## Robogroom (14 April 2012)

Synchronised has been destoyed! and also  According to pete


----------



## Trinity Fox (14 April 2012)

Sorry for al concerned but according to petes owners will be truly devestated.


----------



## paulineh (14 April 2012)

Two horses put down.  Gold Cup winner put down? Tragic loss


----------



## tractor (14 April 2012)

Such a shame, both horses were focussed on before the race. The breeders of According to Pete were there and the lady was in tears before, poor poor lady now - she even said she was wearing all of her lucky clothes. 

As for Synchronised, he looked so well when he got loose, poor fellow. 

I'm crying here too, such a shame. 

RIP boys xxxx


----------



## Feathered (14 April 2012)

Oh no, Syncronised   Jesus, a gold cup winner PTS, that's terrible.


----------



## Gleeful Imp (14 April 2012)

Weird al still being treated on the course


----------



## Archiepoo (14 April 2012)

well i will NEVER watch that again! i had chest pains as i watched the carnage unfold --what a waste of life!!!


----------



## GrassHorse (14 April 2012)

Such a great race! But 4 horses dead in two years?


----------



## Over2You (14 April 2012)

So much for all the new "safety measures". I knew there would still be carnage (as racing will *ALWAYS* be a high risk "sport") and there was. Countless fallers, and *TWO* more horses dead because of this horrible race!!


----------



## tractor (14 April 2012)

Fingers crossed he's OK - without sounding toooo harsh if they've kept him going this long then he might have a chance. Come on mate, stay strong & keep fighting.


----------



## Over2You (14 April 2012)

GrassHorse said:



			Such a great race! But 4 horses dead in two years?
		
Click to expand...


How can it be a "great race" if four horses have died during it in just two years?


----------



## teapot (14 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			How can it be a "great race" if four horses have died during it in just two years?
		
Click to expand...

Whilst sad, I think you need to look at the wider picture of the number of horses racing today around the country, rather than one again focussing on one race and one race only. 

Think of the numbers that run per year and the numbers that PTS on course - it's a small minority. The same as in eventing, polo...


----------



## GrassHorse (14 April 2012)

Thats the question I was asking..


----------



## angelish (14 April 2012)

could be more yet 


Weird Al and Killyglen are still receiving treatment on the course after suffering falls

fingers crossed for those two and R.I.P Syncronised and According to Pete


----------



## paddy555 (14 April 2012)

why are these activities allowed to continue? If someone came onto national television one morning and said "today, for the amusement of the public, we are going to kill 2 or 3 horses" the welfare organisations and public would quite rightly be up in arms about it.


----------



## Jumpyone (14 April 2012)

I had a bad feeling about Syncronised before the race.  Some years ago there was a Gold Cup winner (Alverton I think) they tried to do the double with him and he was killed in the GN. History repeating itself and so sad.

RIP beautiful horses.


----------



## millitiger (14 April 2012)

I love racing but still struggle to see why they allow 40 horses in the GN? 

It is far too many and imo the sheer number of horses NOT the fences is what causes so many falls.

Poor According To Pete who was PTS was brought down by another horse.

Why not limit it to a more sensible number of runners like 20?


----------



## Kadastorm (14 April 2012)

Jumpyone said:



			I had a bad feeling about Syncronised before the race.  Some years ago there was a Gold Cup winner (Alverton I think) they tried to do the double with him and he was killed in the GN. History repeating itself and so sad.

RIP beautiful horses.
		
Click to expand...

i had a bad feeling too, i said straight away to my dad once i had heard he was entered for it. then when he unseated Mccoy before the start, i thought he would surely be pulled out of it. 

and According to Pete, i fell in love with him and his owners when they showed them on the build up and knew as soon as he got up something was wrong. 

i love racing but that was awful to see and the 'improvements' did nothing at all. reduce the number of horses, not the course. 

Condolences to all involved with these two beauties.


----------



## vickyb (14 April 2012)

When Synchronised fell I looked back at Beechers and couldn't see him, so assumed he was okay (i.e.galloped off). Then I am sure I saw him following the field loose - perhaps I have mixed him up with another loose horse? He wasn't at Beecher's when they came round the second time. Does anyone know what actually happened?


----------



## GrassHorse (14 April 2012)

I also think 40 runners is the problem!

Especially when horses being brought down are being killed


----------



## minesadouble (14 April 2012)

I 'think' Synchronised carried on riderless, landed badly whilst riderless and that's where the injury occurred - may not be gospel but what I've heard....


----------



## diluteherd (14 April 2012)

Jumpyone said:



			I had a bad feeling about Syncronised before the race.  

RIP beautiful horses.
		
Click to expand...

I with you on this one.. seeing him before the race I just didnt get the feeling his heart was in it and he didnt want to run.. I think animals do have a 6th sense and perhaps he knew what was coming... *sensibly places foil back over head to stop aliens listening to my thoughts*


----------



## Nollaig Shona (14 April 2012)

teapot said:



			Whilst sad, I think you need to look at the wider picture of the number of horses racing today around the country, rather than one again focussing on one race and one race only. 

Think of the numbers that run per year and the numbers that PTS on course - it's a small minority. The same as in eventing, polo...
		
Click to expand...

And the ones who've never set foot on a racecourse, or competed at all who die - I knew a horse who broke his leg in the stable.  Lay down, went to get up, *snap*, vet called, PTS

About a mile from me a mare (who it turned out was in foal) was seen lying in the field for 3 days and reported to the Gardaí, she'd somehow managed to break her neck - we think she'd clambered on to the round hay bale, and fallen off it, she was lying in a funny position with her neck arched and her nose in between her forelegs, up against the bale.

And all the poor buggers who are starved to death or neglected by their owners.




paddy555 said:



			why are these activities allowed to continue? If someone came onto national television one morning and said "today, for the amusement of the public, we are going to kill 2 or 3 horses" the welfare organisations and public would quite rightly be up in arms about it.
		
Click to expand...

Pardon?  Who the hell is running a race with the intention of killing horses for your entertainment?


----------



## perfect11s (14 April 2012)

Trinity Fox said:



			Sorry for al concerned but according to petes owners will be truly devestated.
		
Click to expand...

 Oh dear  let them be devistated !!! they knew the risk the horses didint have a choice it was made for them !!  jockeys if they get hurt or killed so what ???they made a choice....


----------



## Little Squirrel (14 April 2012)

Syncronised fell when loose at the 11th and broke his leg. According to Pete was brought down at Beecher's and it looked like he broke his shoulder. 

It is always sad to lose any horse but I hate when the public jump on the bandwagon saying how cruel it is etc etc. What people don't seem to appreciate is that these things happen in any equine sport. As Donald McCain pointed out on Thursday after Gottany Os broke his leg Where there's livestock, there's deadstock. This is true for any farmer in the country and when people's livelyhoods are horses the same has to be said. They are living fragile anilmals who are bred to do a job and for the most they love that job.

Each horse that died today wouldn't have felt a thing as their blood would have still been up and they would have been dealt with in a respectfull and efficient manner.

Both the horses which died were freak accidents. There were plenty worse falls today and the horses got up and were fine. Noel Fehily broke his leg for anyone that's interested in the jockey's welfare!


----------



## Little Squirrel (14 April 2012)

perfect11s said:



			Oh dear  let them be devistated !!! they knew the risk the horses didint have a choice it was made for them !!  jockeys if they get hurt or killed so what ???they made a choice....
		
Click to expand...

You are completley ignorant. A friend of mine was a jockey and he was killed. He was one of the nicest guy's you could meet. He was 25 when he died.

How would you feel if that was your friend, brother, father?? These lads make a living from riding horses. They love what they do. Yes they have a choice but they are the bravest men in any sport.


----------



## ladyt25 (14 April 2012)

As I have said on another post, it is so sad but you do have to look at the bigger picture and so many horses die every day doing mundane things or competing in other disciplines. I actually thought at the end of the National today that all horses were fine as had seen all get up after falls. I was very shocked to hear about Sychronised as saw him running on an jumping when he was loose so that is very sad BUT at that point noone was forcing him to run and jump so there was little that could be done.

I don't know anything about the build up with According to Pete but how horrid that that was the outcome from a very unfortunate fall. 

I wouldn't want to stop racing or the GN at all but I do think they could do with reducing the numbers allowed in it tio be honest. It always seems later, when they have spread out a bit there are less incidents. It's those first few fences where they're like a stampede where I am most tense.


----------



## Kokopelli (14 April 2012)

I'm so sad for the pair of them but particularly according to pete.

He seemed such a character and was stunning as well, I didn't place a bet but if I did my money would have been on him. 

And his poor owner, was she the one in tears when he was being saddled up? 

At least we know that these two amazing horses have lived a life of luxury and were cared for to the best standards. It's just sad their life was cut short.


----------



## caramac (14 April 2012)

I feel really, really sad for According to Pete's owners.  They had a little video clip of them on the build up.  They were just ordinary people who lived in a little village in Yorkshire.  They bred him and he spent his first 2 years of his life living in the paddock behind their house.  His owner was in his 70's and his daughter was really emotional before the race started.  They said all they wanted was for him to come home safely.  They will be heartbroken


----------



## ann-jen (14 April 2012)

millitiger said:



			I love racing but still struggle to see why they allow 40 horses in the GN? 

It is far too many and imo the sheer number of horses NOT the fences is what causes so many falls.

Poor According To Pete who was PTS was brought down by another horse.

Why not limit it to a more sensible number of runners like 20?
		
Click to expand...

Agree ^^^


----------



## mightymammoth (14 April 2012)

perfect11s said:



			Oh dear  let them be devistated !!! they knew the risk the horses didint have a choice it was made for them !!  jockeys if they get hurt or killed so what ???they made a choice....
		
Click to expand...

well blooming said


----------



## BeachBreaker (14 April 2012)

millitiger said:



			It is far too many and imo the sheer number of horses NOT the fences is what causes so many falls.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree...it's like a circus! Very sad that such talented horses are gone in a second. According To Pete was just gorgeous.


----------



## langside (14 April 2012)

Sadly the race once again has been over shadowed by the two deaths both of which were total freak accidents 

Poor According Pete had his ears forward the who race jumped the fences beautifully but got knocked down by another horse (and i'm sorry in this case it had nothing to do with the race being too full as by then the field had been easily halfed)

Syncronized fell at the 6th with AP but galloped on and continued jumping with the field jockey-less but then fell again at the 12th 

Sadly both of these are risks that can never be removed


----------



## splashgirl45 (14 April 2012)

i also watched the race and was shocked at the number of fallers and upset that 2 horses have lost their lives .       BUT  its about time the media made the general public aware of the poor  horses who are travelled for many hours in horrendous conditions , some of them already with broken legs and other injuries before being killed(probabley not in the most humane way) these racehorses are well looked after and only suffer for a matter of minutes rather than hours and hours..... anyone on here who is not a member of world horse welfare, please donate to help stop this terrible trade, they need us!!!!!!!


----------



## HorseGirl18 (14 April 2012)

everyone on here are being so horrible about racing. it was an accident. it could happen in any discipline, like badminton one year. i was next to the breeder of the horse who was screaming! it was an accident, they tripped. i know it was horrible to watch but no-one could see it comming. they died doing the thing they love. most sports are high risk, just because theres no animals involved doesnt mean it cant be just as bad. yes it was tragic, i agree, but its a high risk sport and not just for the horses


----------



## mypegasus (14 April 2012)

Jumpyone said:



			I had a bad feeling about Syncronised before the race.  Some years ago there was a Gold Cup winner (Alverton I think) they tried to do the double with him and he was killed in the GN. History repeating itself and so sad.

RIP beautiful horses.
		
Click to expand...

Alverton won the Gold Cup ridden by Jonjo O'Neill in 1979, and Jonjo O'Neill was riding him in the National the same year when he suffered a fatal fall at Bechers Brook.  (I think)

Bizarrely history appears to have repeated itself, except Jonjo trained Synchronised.

RIP Synchronised and According to Pete, run free and enjoy jumping the National fences in the sky


----------



## rhino (14 April 2012)

langside said:



			Sadly the race once again has been over shadowed by the two deaths both of which were total freak accidents
		
Click to expand...

The first definition for freak accident that I found:




			An accident is a specific, unexpected, unusual and unintended external action which occurs in a particular time and place, with no apparent and deliberate cause but with marked effects. ...
		
Click to expand...

Is it really unexpected or unusual, when it happens year in, year out?


----------



## mightymammoth (14 April 2012)

rhino said:



			The first definition for freak accident that I found:



Is it really unexpected or unusual, when it happens year in, year out?
		
Click to expand...

exactly


----------



## Freddie19 (14 April 2012)

mypegasus said:



			Alverton won the Gold Cup ridden by Jonjo O'Neill in 1979, and Jonjo O'Neill was riding him in the National the same year when he suffered a fatal fall at Bechers Brook.  (I think)

Bizarrely history appears to have repeated itself, except Jonjo trained Synchronised.

RIP Synchronised and According to Pete, run free and enjoy jumping the National fences in the sky
		
Click to expand...

also do not forget Dawn Run, won champion hurdle, then the gold cup was sent to France for a hurdle race not long after winning gold cup, fell and broke her neck.....jockey was ?   That was the one that I could not forgive, what a loss to the stud world she was.


----------



## Fantasy_World (14 April 2012)

Two very sad deaths today at Aintree but they were accidents. Both were accidental deaths.
Synchronised was fresh and well before the start which is partly why he unshipped McCoy. When he fell at Bechers he actually seemed to jump ok but stumbled as he landed. Sad that he got injured as he ran loose. As for According to Pete his fate was worse in my opinion as he got brought down and simply had no where to go. 
At least they would have felt little, if anything at all. 
To be honest I don't blame the number of runners or the fences today. The delay when Synchronised got loose going down to the start didn't help, but for me the start was a farce. Jockeys trying to keep horses calm as their blood was pumping waiting for the loose horse to be caught and then faffing around with the bleeding tape. Why was it so paramount that the tape be drawn across. Horses were there ready to go but they kept faffing to get it secured. Should have let them go and maybe just maybe we may not have had half the field getting worked up and going off like they did. 
Ballabriggs was a clear example of this as he got very worked up and sweaty. 
I think it is about time some protocol was in place or they had a flag start with this race due to the number of runners. We are talking about a race over 4 miles and 4 furlongs, not a mile over the flat, plenty of time to make up a few yards lost at the start.
RIP to the horses that died today


----------



## irishdraft (14 April 2012)

I watched the race and whatever the whys and wherefores of racing and accepting the risk, there seemed to be so many fallers and According to Pete to be brought down when he was such a game little horse and had got so far round was particularly upsetting, I do feel for the owners although they must have realised the risks, it has put me off the race now and I wont watch again.


----------



## pinktiger (14 April 2012)

millitiger said:



			I love racing but still struggle to see why they allow 40 horses in the GN? 

It is far too many and imo the sheer number of horses NOT the fences is what causes so many falls.

Poor According To Pete who was PTS was brought down by another horse.

Why not limit it to a more sensible number of runners like 20?
		
Click to expand...

ditto this!! Im nothing other than an observer,, and from what i observed today the trouble began at the first 5 fences,, could be the blood being up, could have been from waiting for Ap mcoy to do his thing and retrieve his horse (RIP sync) then show it the first fence!! Possibly Too much waiting and tension for fit horses and wired' ready to go jockeys', followed by the chaos at the tape!!  There just seemed too many horses, by a good half,,,  they just seemed unable to avoid each other at all!!  Also this year over any other ive watched ,the horses seemed to be climbing these fences like they were  abseiling rather than jumping!!


----------



## Firewell (14 April 2012)

I think the subject of the GN and racing is such a complicated and sensitive one with so many pro's and con's, it's really very hard for me to take sides.
However I do know I did not enjoy watching the carnage one bit. Yes it's nice to have thrills and spills but it's almost like watching a blood sport when it's so dangerous for the horses and the jockeys.
The start was a total farce and an embarassment. I agree with the poster who said this was partly to blame. They need to get rid of that bloody tape, if some are dwelling at back tough luck. They need to be able to jump off first time, what they should say is anyone seen on camera to be over the line on starters orders will be penalised after the race. That would soon keep them all back.
I think the field is too large. I know its the National and everything but honestly it was the pile ups that cause the trouble. Its when a horse falls it brings down the ones behind who can't get out of the way in time.
Maybe back 100's of years ago when people were used to livestock being dead stock it was more acceptable but nowadays when horses are seen as pets more, it's a bitter pill to swallow.
Saying that, those two horses were probably more better off than a lot of horses in this world. It's sad but I'd be seriously stonkingly rich if I had a penny for every horse ruined by a fool. It's a sad fact of life, kids are abused, horses are abused, hell happens.
Racing has it's place but they are going to have to do something about the National to reduce the fatality rate or i'm for one am not going to be able to watch it. I love the history behind it and the fairy tale stories but it really upsets me to look at all the horses before the race and wonder which ones won't make it . It shouldn't be like that.


----------



## xspiralx (14 April 2012)

RIP According to Pete and Synchronised.

It is very sad for any horses to die, and of course to have such a high profile death in the Gold Cup winner is an absolute PR disaster for racing as much as anything else.

It's a tremendous shame, and devastating for the all the connections of the horse.

But that said, these horses are bred to do a job. They are kept in peak physical condition while they are alive. If they do have an accident they are put out of their misery quickly and painlessly.

There are millions of animals in this country that are not so lucky. Not just horses and other pets, but millions and millions of factory farmed animals. 

So yes, whilst it is sad when any horse dies unnecessarily, I think it is important to keep a sense of perspective.


----------



## Achinghips (14 April 2012)

"like" button for Firewell


----------



## Marydoll (14 April 2012)

millitiger said:



			I love racing but still struggle to see why they allow 40 horses in the GN? 

It is far too many and imo the sheer number of horses NOT the fences is what causes so many falls.

Poor According To Pete who was PTS was brought down by another horse.

Why not limit it to a more sensible number of runners like 20?
		
Click to expand...

Agee with this, right away reducing the numbers would help imo


----------



## starryeyed (14 April 2012)

This year was the first year I didn't watch it, because I can't bear to watch them fall and had a feeling that the "alterations" wouldn't change anything, though hoped I'd be proven wrong.
I'm the same as Firewall - I watch them at the start and wonder which ones will cross the finish line, and that shouldn't be what the grand national is about. So, so sad. I realise it's a "risk" sport, but they need to reduce the number of runners to at _least_ half, the poor horses don't stand a chance. RIP x


----------



## Echo Bravo (14 April 2012)

I think some of the op's should grow up. And Splashgirl this is the wrong post to bring up how horrendous some horses live their last hours,because these people don't really care,they just want to create a lot of fuss.


----------



## punk (14 April 2012)

millitiger said:



			I love racing but still struggle to see why they allow 40 horses in the GN? 

It is far too many and imo the sheer number of horses NOT the fences is what causes so many falls.

Poor According To Pete who was PTS was brought down by another horse.

Why not limit it to a more sensible number of runners like 20?
		
Click to expand...

I SSSOOO agree with you!! I do think it is the number of runners that is the problem IMHO - the horses (and riders) get anxious by being crowded, and there are some very tight turns and very large fences!!!  Am no expert , being an eventer at heart, but how many of our Badminton riders would like to come into a 5' fence surrounded by other horses (some of them quite possibly riderless!!)  I know it is the norm in racing, but the fences and the course are not the norm of steeplechasing.  

I would hate to see the GN become a walk in the park - it should test to the limit - but to see so many horses 'brought down' by others doesn't do the sport any good in the long run.


----------



## jenbleep (15 April 2012)

xspiralx said:



			RIP According to Pete and Synchronised.

It is very sad for any horses to die, and of course to have such a high profile death in the Gold Cup winner is an absolute PR disaster for racing as much as anything else.

It's a tremendous shame, and devastating for the all the connections of the horse.

But that said, these horses are bred to do a job. They are kept in peak physical condition while they are alive. If they do have an accident they are put out of their misery quickly and painlessly.

There are millions of animals in this country that are not so lucky. Not just horses and other pets, but millions and millions of factory farmed animals. 

So yes, whilst it is sad when any horse dies unnecessarily, I think it is important to keep a sense of perspective.
		
Click to expand...

100% agree. I'm so sick of people going on saying racing is cruel - these horses are bred to do a job and are the ultimate athletes, if they require any medical attention they have it right away and are treated by the best vets or put out of their misery immediately. I doubt they feel any pain anyway what with the amount of adrenaline pumping around their bodies. 

There are much more important horse welfare issues that need to be addressed imo, and that's not NH racing!!!


----------



## silu (15 April 2012)

So much for all the changes that have been made to The National fences. I walked the course 2 weeks ago having not walked it for about 15 years and boy have there been changes to the heights of the fences etc. I'm no expert, however the changes looked to me as tho they would encourage SPEED. Indeed the race today was run in a fast time. I was horrified at the carnage over the 1st few fences despite the field being deemed the classiest ever. I am old enough to have witnessed what happened to Alverton and had a sinking feeling before the race re Synchronised. I did actually pick Neptune to win, however I took little pleasure in watching the race. What happened to "hunting" the 1st circuit and racing the 2nd? That said I think Neptune was about 2nd/3rd last over the 1st fence?
I have been to Aintree/watched The National on TV for over 50 years and I will never watch the race again. Since the changes to the course there seems to me an inevitability of disaster about it.


----------



## millitiger (15 April 2012)

Just because you think the GN needs to make some changes doesn't mean you are against the GN or racing in general.

Going on and on about how well cared for racehorses are, imo, is nothing to do with the argument of the GN itself.


----------



## Gingerwitch (15 April 2012)

Out of all the comments on here the one that makes me the maddest is "the horses were doing something they loved" - total crap - they were following the herd instinct and man is mearly using that fact.

40 horses - too many - tape - stupid and pointless - faffing around at the start - they should have a grand prix style start - the ones with a real chance and good odds at the front the ones with poorer odds behind, get them walking in a couple of rows and then let them go off smootly - trust me if i was on an outsider I would be much happier at the back with the fence height reduced for the first time round and as someone said its over 4 miles - a couple of feet wont make any differance - when was the last time there was a "photo finish"

Beside that - how many were lost and injured this time round on the Friday - last time I was at Liverpool equine, we had 6 brought in on the Friday with broken legs - and those were the ones that made it there.

GW


----------



## Dovorian (15 April 2012)

In my original post my sadness was directed initially to the low number of finishers. 

This isn't a first round SJ class where the course builder wants to have 10 in the jump off! 

Of course I am very sorry that 2 suffered fatal injuries, but surely something is wrong if half a field fail to complete the course?

I know nothing about racing at this level, so stand ready to be corrected.


----------



## Marydoll (15 April 2012)

xspiralx said:



			RIP According to Pete and Synchronised.

It is very sad for any horses to die, and of course to have such a high profile death in the Gold Cup winner is an absolute PR disaster for racing as much as anything else.

It's a tremendous shame, and devastating for the all the connections of the horse.

But that said, these horses are bred to do a job. They are kept in peak physical condition while they are alive. If they do have an accident they are put out of their misery quickly and painlessly.

There are millions of animals in this country that are not so lucky. Not just horses and other pets, but millions and millions of factory farmed animals. 

So yes, whilst it is sad when any horse dies unnecessarily, I think it is important to keep a sense of perspective.
		
Click to expand...

While i agree with some of what you say, i believe that the grand national is a race that has an unacceptable amount of injury and deaths, and to ignore that or " not bother "to comment on, or try to lobby to change, it because other acts of cruelty and negligence go on elsewhere is  not acceptable to me, and the reason i will speak out against it, and other aspects of animal welfare that give me cause for concern


----------



## Marydoll (15 April 2012)

Dovorian said:



			In my original post my sadness was directed initially to the low number of finishers. 

This isn't a first round SJ class where the course builder wants to have 10 in the jump off! 

Of course I am very sorry that 2 suffered fatal injuries, but surely something is wrong if half a field fail to complete the course?

I know nothing about racing at this level, so stand ready to be corrected.
		
Click to expand...

I dont think you need to know anything about racing to know that your comment is right, its unnacceptable that not even half the field make it to the finish.
I also agree that the field should be halfed


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (15 April 2012)

I was at Aintree yesterday and whilst I love the race I do think that they need less runners. Even if they drop the number down to 30 that will make a HUGE difference. 

Both Synchronised and Pete looked fantastic yesterday and it is such a shame that they lost their lives. R.I.P. lovely horses.


----------



## Honeylight (15 April 2012)

punk said:



			I SSSOOO agree with you!! I do think it is the number of runners that is the problem IMHO - the horses (and riders) get anxious by being crowded, and there are some very tight turns and very large fences!!!  Am no expert , being an eventer at heart, but how many of our Badminton riders would like to come into a 5' fence surrounded by other horses (some of them quite possibly riderless!!)  I know it is the norm in racing, but the fences and the course are not the norm of steeplechasing.  

I would hate to see the GN become a walk in the park - it should test to the limit - but to see so many horses 'brought down' by others doesn't do the sport any good in the long run.
		
Click to expand...

The largest number to be killed in the race was 4 in 1954 the race had one of the smallest fields in it's history, just 29.
Speed kills, the RSPCA is partly responsible for the fatalities as it put so much pressure on the authorities to lower the jumps. that's why they are blustering now.


----------



## neelie OAP (15 April 2012)

Don't you think 40 horses in a race is far to many for safety, lowering the fences only makes for a faster race !


----------



## Dab (15 April 2012)

Has it got that much quicker, looking back 15 years ago, same times, same going. If you go back much further then yes, but would you expect to see some improvement due to breeding and feeds etc?

1997 Lord Gyllene 09-10-00 Tony Dobbin Steve Brookshaw Stan Clarke 14/1 9m 5.8s Good 36 
1996 Rough Quest 10-10-07 Mick Fitzgerald Terry Casey Andrew Wates 7/1 F 9m 0.8s Good 27 
1995 Royal Athlete 12-10-06 Jason Titley Jenny Pitman Gary & Libby Johnson 40/1 9m 4.0s Good 35 


Rough Quest 1996 9m on Good - 1 fatality after the race
Party Politics 1992 9m 6 on good to soft  - no fatalities (?)
Mr Frisk 1990 8m 47 s on Firm - no fatalities 
Red Rum 1973 9m 1 s on Firm - 1 fatality after the race


Think last two years have run around 9m 6 mark on good to firm. So is it the speed that is the issue?

95, 96 & 97 did have smaller fields.


----------



## YasandCrystal (15 April 2012)

millitiger said:



			I love racing but still struggle to see why they allow 40 horses in the GN? 

It is far too many and imo the sheer number of horses NOT the fences is what causes so many falls.

Poor According To Pete who was PTS was brought down by another horse.

Why not limit it to a more sensible number of runners like 20?
		
Click to expand...

^^ This, far too many runners


----------



## Honeylight (15 April 2012)

One interesting thing is that since they had the ballot system & limited it to 40 runners there has nearly always been the full number. Prior to that the numbers fluctuated between the high twenties & high 40s.
It's status has grown & with the modifications faster & higher rated horses have taken part. In the post war years not that many Gold Cup horses took part until the latter years. Alverton, L'Esgargot, Garrison Savannah & Master Oats towards the end of the century. Prior to that it was a race for specialist staying chasers who in many cases failed to excel on park tracks due to lack of speed. Perhaps a move should be made to re-create these conditions again & let it retake it's place as that specialist race. No race can be made safe & there will always be fatalities in NH racing.
Possibly the 1954 result was one of those freakish events that occurs, one of those horses died after running loose too. Narrowing the fences to make the run outs has led to crowding, not many horses are taking advantage of the run outs. Hard to know what to do to reduce the loose horses, they have always been the real problem with this race.


----------



## Dab (15 April 2012)

Honeylight said:



			One interesting thing is that since they had the ballot system & limited it to 40 runners there has nearly always been the full number. Prior to that the numbers fluctuated between the high twenties & high 40s.
It's status has grown & with the modifications faster & higher rated horses have taken part. In the post war years not that many Gold Cup horses took part until the latter years. Alverton, L'Esgargot, Garrison Savannah & Master Oats towards the end of the century. Prior to that it was a race for specialist staying chasers who in many cases failed to excel on park tracks due to lack of speed. Perhaps a move should be made to re-create these conditions again & let it retake it's place as that specialist race. No race can be made safe & there will always be fatalities in NH racing.
Possibly the 1954 result was one of those freakish events that occurs, one of those horses died after running loose too. Narrowing the fences to make the run outs has led to crowding, not many horses are taking advantage of the run outs. Hard to know what to do to reduce the loose horses, they have always been the real problem with this race.
		
Click to expand...

That is really interesting, i didnt think about the narrowing of the fences. Loose horses are a big problem, always remember watching that Rummy win when he was flanked by those two loose horses and praying that they didnt bring him down.

With the growth of the status of the race, do owners look for rated horses just to get in the race without considerastion as to whether it is a National horse or not?


----------



## wildwhippet (15 April 2012)

It seems to me that in previous years the horses who were lost had usually fallen badly & broken necks. However now even on the flat horses are breaking legs.... 
Whatever the arguments in favour of racing, losing two good horses like that takes the gloss from the race & the joy from winning!
And how long before owners don't want to enter their horses?...


----------



## cruiseline (15 April 2012)

Honeylight said:



			It's status has grown & with the modifications faster & higher rated horses have taken part. In the post war years not that many Gold Cup horses took part until the latter years. Alverton, L'Esgargot, Garrison Savannah & Master Oats towards the end of the century. Prior to that it was a race for specialist staying chasers who in many cases failed to excel on park tracks due to lack of speed. Perhaps a move should be made to re-create these conditions again & let it retake it's place as that specialist race. No race can be made safe & there will always be fatalities in NH racing.
		
Click to expand...

My husband who is a flat racing man, would totally agree with you. He feels it is not only the number of runners, but also the qualification criteria that needs to be looked into.

There will be accidental fatalities in ALL top equine sporting events, as well as stable accidents, field accidents, road accidents, breeding accidents, and many horses will die in the hands of people who should not be let anywhere near a clothes horse, never mind a living breathing one!!!!!

Two weeks ago I witnessed 3 group 1 FLAT horses in the same race all lose their lives due to broken legs (one more than the Grand National), it is NEVER a nice thing to witness and my heart goes out to the connections of all horses that lose their lives on the 'sporting field', but it happens and no amount of added red tape will stop it 100%!! Have posters forgotten about the sad lose of Hickstead in the show jumping arena. Do we now need to have all competitive horses heart rates taken before, during and after a show jumping competition. Call Again Cavalier broke his leg in the express eventing final, Dirk Demeersman promising young stallion Ugano Sitte broke his leg while being lunged. I also know of more than one stallion who has lost his life slipping of either a mare or the dummy. Last month a friend lost her very promising young show jumper while she was transporting it back to the stables after a successful weekend of competition, it kicked in the trailer and broke a hind leg. It happens.

Do I think the GN should be stopped, no I don't, but I do think that there needs to be a rethink regarding the number of runners and the qualification criteria of those horses that do run.

To stop accidents happening in the hands of humans, we would need to stop riding horses, however even if we turned them all out into the lush green pastures, you can be guaranteed accidents will still happen, we just won't get to witness them.


----------



## Dab (15 April 2012)

wildwhippet said:



			It seems to me that in previous years the horses who were lost had usually fallen badly & broken necks. However now even on the flat horses are breaking legs.... 
Whatever the arguments in favour of racing, losing two good horses like that takes the gloss from the race & the joy from winning!
And how long before owners don't want to enter their horses?...
		
Click to expand...

The two fatalities on the course last year were due to broken necks and spinal injury, this year it was leg injuries. Maybe they didnt do enough road work this year? Is it just coincidence that it was legs this year? AtP was bought down by another horse resulting in his injury.


----------



## I.M.N. (15 April 2012)

Eventing, show jumping, dressage, polo, lunging, putting in the stable, turning out, etc, never begin with "I wonder how many will survive" so I don't think are comparable. If anyone can find a stat that compares to over 20 horses being killed racing in March alone, maybe I'll change my perspective, I don't mean through cruelty, neglect, etc, I mean by another equine activity labeled sport.


----------



## cruiseline (15 April 2012)

I.M.N. said:



			Eventing, show jumping, dressage, polo, lunging, putting in the stable, turning out, etc, never begin with "I wonder how many will survive" so I don't think are comparable. If anyone can find a stat that compares to over 20 horses being killed racing in March alone, maybe I'll change my perspective, I don't mean through cruelty, neglect, etc, I mean by another equine activity labeled sport.
		
Click to expand...

If they are accidents, then why are they not comparable! To not compare them would only suggest that you consider the fatalities as intentional!


----------



## I.M.N. (15 April 2012)

I don't consider them intentional but I do think they are somewhat expected, which they aren't when it comes to other sports. This is only my opinion not a fact.


----------



## Dab (15 April 2012)

I.M.N. said:



			Eventing, show jumping, dressage, polo, lunging, putting in the stable, turning out, etc, never begin with "I wonder how many will survive" so I don't think are comparable. If anyone can find a stat that compares to over 20 horses being killed racing in March alone, maybe I'll change my perspective, I don't mean through cruelty, neglect, etc, I mean by another equine activity labeled sport.
		
Click to expand...

So what equine event does start with 'I wonder how many will survive'? If you are refering to the National, maybe others may say, 'i wonder who is going to win'?

Others out there may say, 'that novice who hasn't got a clue, i wonder how long it will be before that horse is ruined, and its life turned to misery'?

or 'that horse who is over weight and just been turned out onto lush grass, it will get lami and suffers because his owner is ignorant'?

Just wonder why you don't want to apply cases of cruelty and neglect, and expection of injury to the general horse owning population but more than happy to do so with racing?


----------



## I.M.N. (15 April 2012)

Dab said:



			So what equine event does start with 'I wonder how many will survive'? If you are refering to the National, maybe others may say, 'i wonder who is going to win'?

Others out there may say, 'that novice who hasn't got a clue, i wonder how long it will be before that horse is ruined, and its life turned to misery'?

or 'that horse who is over weight and just been turned out onto lush grass, it will get lami and suffers because his owner is ignorant'?

Just wonder why you don't want to apply cases of cruelty and neglect, and expection of injury to the general horse owning population but more than happy to do so with racing?
		
Click to expand...

Sorry I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. First off, I'm not having a go at racing, I think the horses must be looked after very well as they always look excellent, and any athlete that is pushed to it's limit has to be in top physical form, so in many ways I think the horses are look after better then many others.

People say 'I wonder who is going to win?' with every equine sport, but I feel only racing caries the constant question of 'how many will make it?'. I could be wrong, this is just how I feel, maybe everyone else out there thinks 'I wonder how many will make it?' when they watch other equine sports.

The reason I don't apply cases of cruelty and neglect, and expectation of injury to the general horse owning population is because I'm only talking about activities that fall under the heading sport. I'm sure the number of fatalities due to neglect far out way that of racing, but fatalities are expected when it comes to neglect, not when it comes to sport.

I understand it is a ratio game as well, there are twice (only a guess) as many horses racing then there are competing in other sports, so maybe if you add up all the other sports fatalities and double it it might be the same as racing. 

Unfortunately because racing is so in the public eye, and people always get so passionate about animals it will always come under criticism, I only form my opinions of what I know and how I feel, and am always interested in being presented with new information.


----------



## MagicMelon (15 April 2012)

Hate the grand national.  Ridiculous that it is still allowed to continue.  Several horses seem to die every single year, if that happened in a single event in a single disipline elsewhere it'd be banned!  Imagine if horses died at Badminton all the time, dont think it'd continue very long.


----------



## Dab (15 April 2012)

I.M.N. said:



			People say 'I wonder who is going to win?' with every equine sport, but I feel only racing caries the constant question of 'how many will make it?'. I could be wrong, this is just how I feel, maybe everyone else out there thinks 'I wonder how many will make it?' when they watch other equine sports.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the time to reply, i'm really interested to see what peoples thoughts are on the subject and how they justify various issues.

With regard to feeling that 'only racing carries the constant question of 'how many will make it?' Does this feeling arise when you consider all racing or just the National? Do you think 'how many will make it' when you consider a flat race or hurdles? Just wondering where 'the constant' comes from? And if it is more risk adverse.





I.M.N. said:



			The reason I don't apply cases of cruelty and neglect, and expectation of injury to the general horse owning population is because I'm only talking about activities that fall under the heading sport. I'm sure the number of fatalities due to neglect far out way that of racing, but fatalities are expected when it comes to neglect, not when it comes to sport..
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, not sure i follow this reasoning. Fatalities are expected when it comes to neglect but not sport?

Does that also mean that horse fatalities that are dervived from entertainment generated in sport are less acceptable then fatalities that are generated by the entertainment gained from general horse owning (non-prof, hobby owners etc).


----------



## noodle_ (15 April 2012)

xspiralx said:



			RIP According to Pete and Synchronised.

It is very sad for any horses to die, and of course to have such a high profile death in the Gold Cup winner is an absolute PR disaster for racing as much as anything else.

It's a tremendous shame, and devastating for the all the connections of the horse.

But that said, these horses are bred to do a job. They are kept in peak physical condition while they are alive. If they do have an accident they are put out of their misery quickly and painlessly.

There are millions of animals in this country that are not so lucky. Not just horses and other pets, but millions and millions of factory farmed animals. 

So yes, whilst it is sad when any horse dies unnecessarily, I think it is important to keep a sense of perspective.
		
Click to expand...



Couldnt have put it better myself...!

I am a fan of racing and always will be.


----------



## lannerch (15 April 2012)

How many top eventers would enter the same horse for badmington and burghley if they were only 4 weeks apart and what would the public outcry be if they did!
I too think the number of runners should be culled less runners more space to avoid fallers and loose horses, also sorry this one is going to be unpopular but the drop fences should go or at least lessened , I think statistics will show this is where most deaths indirectly or directly occur, leave the size of the fences alone of even increase it would still be a great race!


----------



## Orangehorse (15 April 2012)

I agree with Noodle as well.  I didn't know that both the fatalities were caused when running loose/being brought down - even sadder I think.  Of all the horses running you would have said that Synchronised would have got round.

I don't think the course can be modified any more.  The going was OK.  Lots didn't finish because they were pulled up, surely much better than to keep on with a horse with no chance.

And as for owners being upset -of course they are upset, but they must know that every day is a hazard for a TB.

The race has always been a bit of a lottery, and it still attracts so many runners because it has the biggest prize money of the year.


----------



## xspiralx (15 April 2012)

lannerch said:



			How many top eventers would enter the same horse for badmington and burghley if they were only 4 weeks apart and what would the public outcry be if they did!
		
Click to expand...

What makes you think that? Plenty of top eventers are competed more than once a month - and its not even hard to find examples of horses that have done a 3 star and a 4 star within 3 weeks of each other. ie. Belton just before Badminton.


----------



## ROG (15 April 2012)

THE WHOLE RACE for those that want to


----------



## lannerch (15 April 2012)

Not 4star equivalent recovery time is required!


----------



## silu (15 April 2012)

Walked the course about 2 weeks ago and I can assure people the course is a shadow of it's former self having walked it about 25 years ago. Maybe have a think about number of runners and the start. The course rode very well in the Topham and I was confident we'd have over 20 finish the race, how wrong I was. The delayed start perhaps made both horses and jockeys more anxious than usual which resulted in a manic pace for the 1st circuit. I'd be interested if anybody knew the split times. Neptune who I actually backed (been a fan of his for many years) was all but last over the 1st fence...anybody else notice that? Gone are the days of hunting the 1st circuit and racing the 2nd altho that's sort of what Neptune did. The reduced sizes of the fences has stopped horses backing off and more speed resulted. I didn't know about the fatalities until after I'd won but I didn't enjoy the race due to so much mayhem/manic pace. Obviously I was gutted to hear about Synchronised (history repeating itself, I remember Alverton all to well) but he actually fatally injured himself 5 fences after Beecher and it was so sad about According to Pete, being brought down in any race often results in serious injuries.Personally I have seen far worse "cruelty" at P T Ps with aged unsound horses, rock hard ground and crap jockeys but then these events aren't watched by millions.


----------



## I.M.N. (15 April 2012)

Dab said:



			Thanks for taking the time to reply, i'm really interested to see what peoples thoughts are on the subject and how they justify various issues.

With regard to feeling that 'only racing carries the constant question of 'how many will make it?' Does this feeling arise when you consider all racing or just the National? Do you think 'how many will make it' when you consider a flat race or hurdles? Just wondering where 'the constant' comes from? And if it is more risk adverse.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I apply it to flat and hurdles, I don't know why I just always feel a bit uncomfortable watching racing, in the same way I feel uncomfortable when I watch certain top riders going cross country. There is one event rider who whenever I watch I wonder if the horse will be the next of (event riders) fatalities.




Dab said:



			Sorry, not sure i follow this reasoning. Fatalities are expected when it comes to neglect but not sport?

Does that also mean that horse fatalities that are dervived from entertainment generated in sport are less acceptable then fatalities that are generated by the entertainment gained from general horse owning (non-prof, hobby owners etc).
		
Click to expand...

I meant more that fatalities /should not/ be expected when it comes to sport, like they are when it comes to neglect. I don't think I'm making it any clearer. I really don't know how to explain it, sorry.


----------



## Baggybreeches (15 April 2012)

silu said:



			Personally I have seen far worse "cruelty" at P T Ps with aged unsound horses, rock hard ground and crap jockeys but then these events aren't watched by millions.
		
Click to expand...

A good point.........


----------



## lannerch (15 April 2012)

Agree with the ptp comment there is far worse cruelty out there that goes on without the public eye but two wrongs don't make a right.


----------



## Easy Rider (15 April 2012)

I.M.N. said:



			Eventing, show jumping, dressage, polo, lunging, putting in the stable, turning out, etc, never begin with "I wonder how many will survive" so I don't think are comparable. If anyone can find a stat that compares to over 20 horses being killed racing in March alone, maybe I'll change my perspective, I don't mean through cruelty, neglect, etc, I mean by another equine activity labeled sport.
		
Click to expand...

That's the crux of this debate.

While it's true to say (and many people do) that horses can die doing any sport, or standing in the stable, or in the field, the percentage chance of it happening to any individual horse on any given day are very low.  

Whereas in the last two years, approximately 5% of horses starting the Grand National have had to be put down.  I don't think many equestrian activities come close to that except perhaps other races.

For example, lots of horses are fatally injured in the field, but it would be surprising if it happened to 5% of the turned-out horse population on any single day.

Freak accidents are unavoidable, and you shouldn't try to prevent them because if you do, nobody would do anything with horses.

The issue with the Grand National is that it seems to be that fatal injuries are not freak accidents but a predictable consequence of running a large number of horses of varying abilities around a tough course.  That's what makes me uncomfortable about it.


----------



## wildoat (15 April 2012)

Don't want to get into whether this race is right or wrong because there are arguments either way.
What I would say is the people involved with these horse devoted an incredible amount of time/ effort and love with these animals, my sympathy goes out to them all, owners, jockeys and trainers as well of course as to the people who look after and care for them on a daily basis.

it was a very sad day!


----------



## Baggybreeches (15 April 2012)

The official stats are that fatality rate has fallen to a current rate of 1.5% from 3.3% during the 1990s. That data has been taken from the BHA website


----------



## Easy Rider (15 April 2012)

It depends over what period you measure it; I was estimating it over the last two years only.  Obviously that will give a higher figure because they were two particularly bad years.

Even on the official figures, it's still a high percentage figure compared to almost any other equestrian activity.


----------



## Dab (15 April 2012)

Easy Rider said:



			That's the crux of this debate.

While it's true to say (and many people do) that horses can die doing any sport, or standing in the stable, or in the field, the percentage chance of it happening to any individual horse on any given day are very low.  

Whereas in the last two years, approximately 5% of horses starting the Grand National have had to be put down.  I don't think many equestrian activities come close to that except perhaps other races.

For example, lots of horses are fatally injured in the field, but it would be surprising if it happened to 5% of the turned-out horse population on any single day.

Freak accidents are unavoidable, and you shouldn't try to prevent them because if you do, nobody would do anything with horses.

The issue with the Grand National is that it seems to be that fatal injuries are not freak accidents but a predictable consequence of running a large number of horses of varying abilities around a tough course.  That's what makes me uncomfortable about it.
		
Click to expand...

Therefore it should all be about playing the % game? 

In the last two years the National has suffered higher than average fatalities for what ever reason. But on the basis of the last two years 5% of starters meeting their death in this race is too high for you to find acceptable? What if it was 2.5% would that still be too high? Where and who draws the line, is 0%, 2.5%, 5% or 10% acceptable?

How about if a riding school needed to lose 3 of its 40 horses because they weren't paying their way. And these 3 horses were PTS on one day, thats 7 1/2% of the total riding school horses population (in that school), is that acceptable? What happens if that same riding school make the same financial mistakes next year and again have to have 3 horses PTS, is this more or less uncomfortable than horse being killed in the National? its all in the name of entertainment!


----------



## Easy Rider (15 April 2012)

No, it's not about a % game.  I think the percentages are interesting but they're not an answer in themselves - as you say, it's impossible to define a level which is "acceptable".  

The key point is when deaths stop being freak accidents and start becoming predictable.  E.g. a horse can die of colic out of pure bad luck (i.e. freak accident) or through negligent management (i.e. predictable).  The former is sad but acceptable and the latter shouldn't be (although of course it happens).

A fatality rate in the range of 3 to 5% to me suggests predictability, not freak accidents - that's why I mentioned the percentages.


----------



## Dab (15 April 2012)

Easy Rider said:



			No, it's not about a % game.  I think the percentages are interesting but they're not an answer in themselves - as you say, it's impossible to define a level which is "acceptable".  

The key point is when deaths stop being freak accidents and start becoming predictable.  E.g. a horse can die of colic out of pure bad luck (i.e. freak accident) or through negligent management (i.e. predictable).  The former is sad but acceptable and the latter shouldn't be (although of course it happens).

A fatality rate in the range of 3 to 5% to me suggests predictability, not freak accidents - that's why I mentioned the percentages.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry i'm not sure how the 3 to 5% range suggests predictability in this case?


----------



## Easy Rider (15 April 2012)

Just because it seems like a material proportion of the total, and a higher rate than you'd find in most equestrian activities or indeed non-equestrian sports.  You're quite right that it's subjective though.


----------



## Dab (15 April 2012)

Easy Rider said:



			Just because it seems like a material proportion of the total, and a higher rate than you'd find in most equestrian activities or indeed non-equestrian sports.  You're quite right that it's subjective though.
		
Click to expand...

Ahhh i see. But doesn't predictability mean that you can foretell something? Thats why the range thing was confusing. If one or more horses die every year, then it could be predicted (if everything stays constant) that next year a horse will die, based on a knowledge of the stats.

But the % range in any one year on its own does not make it predicatable that a horse will die next year.


----------



## Mondy (15 April 2012)

Honestly, the argument that these animals are kept in prime condition until they are killed for sport is the argument used for bullfighting, dogfighting and bearbaiting. What a prestigious company! 

And the fact that Point to Point is even worse in relation to horse welfare is not a very convincing defence either. 

Shameful. These deaths are utterly unnecessary.


----------



## Over2You (16 April 2012)

Here's a quote from Sky News:

"Winning jockey Daryl Jacob told Sky News the deaths were unfortunate - but that they were part of the sport.

"It's not nice when a couple of horses unfortunately lost their lives," he said.


"But that's sport. It happens every day. It happens every day, it happens to human beings, it happens to animals.

"Unfortunately that's professional sport and, you know, it's going to happen. We love our horses, we don't want it to happen, but unfortunately it does happen sometimes."

Along with finding it acceptable that horses die in the name of "sport", he clearly thinks its okay to whip them excessively too. I saw Neptune Collenges being led to the winners enclosure, and his hindquarters were bloodied because of being whipped!! I tried to find a video clip to back this up, but the only footage I could find was after the horse had been sponged down. What happened to the new whip rules anyway? Oh, that's right, it's still okay to whip a horse as often as you like as there still aren't any serious repercussions for doing so. It is sickening to think that this whip happy jockey is considered a "hero"!!   

Also, will you pro-racers please *STOP* saying the deaths were "accidents"!! They were bloody unavoidable!! The recent fatalities have *NOTHING* to do with the "safety modifications" as horses have been dying in this wretched race ever since its inception. The *ONLY* way to avoid any more deaths in the race is to ban it!! 

Oh, and will somebody at Horse and Hound please tell me why there has been *NO* mention of Gottany O's  who died during the second race on the first day of the meeting. Thank you.


----------



## applecart14 (16 April 2012)

I agree.  They were totally avoidable deaths.  If the owner of According to Pete is that devastated then why let him do the race?  I love my horse to bits which is why I've always said I'd never jump a higher XC course than 2ft 9 because I would say that over that height you'd struggle to get away with hitting a fence hard and I would hate him to injure himself due to my inexperience or his lack of courage.  I know hitting the fence hard is not the ultimate reason the fallers fell at the National, but I do believe its the speed of the race and the very fact that without doubt horse will jump flat when they are galloping fast.

I don't think decreasing the height of the fences would make that much difference.  I think they said that only 15 of the original 40 that started the race came through the finish line.  That speaks for itself.

I am not really a fan of horse racing, but I dislike the National even more because I see it as a really unfair race for the horses that run in it.  They have the odds stacked against them due to the distance, the sheer number in the race, the huge unforgiving fences, the fact that loose horses can cause a number of other horses to fall.

Truly horrific in my opinion, but sure I will get shot down by the 'die hard' fraternity.


----------



## luckyoldme (16 April 2012)

Im sure there was a spell when there were less fatal falls at Aintree.
I don t like the horse racing world... it s no place for a softie like me.
One of the owners talked about his wishes for the race and said he would just be relieved to see his horse back safely.
That is the acknowledgement of an owner that he knows the risk he is taking with his horse and for whatever reason still goes ahead.
There are people who can do that and other people who cant.
Im one of the folk who can t.


----------



## Andalusianlover1 (16 April 2012)

vickyb said:



			When Synchronised fell I looked back at Beechers and couldn't see him, so assumed he was okay (i.e.galloped off). Then I am sure I saw him following the field loose - perhaps I have mixed him up with another loose horse? He wasn't at Beecher's when they came round the second time. Does anyone know what actually happened?
		
Click to expand...

Apparently he was perfectly fine after his fall with Tony onboard.  He carried on for 5 fences on his own and fell again, thats when he broke his leg.


----------



## Baggybreeches (16 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			I saw Neptune Collenges being led to the winners enclosure, and his hindquarters were bloodied because of being whipped!!
		
Click to expand...

That's proven fact is it? 
Because I would suggest that a) as Daryl didn't receive a ban, he didn't strike the horse more than 9 times in the entire race b) it is virtually impossible to beat a horse to bleeding with a racing whip such is the cushioning
and 
c) the most likely cause of the blood was from the nostril of another horse in the field.

Please stop making a fool of yourself with such stupid (and groundless) accusations.


----------



## amandat (16 April 2012)

Baggybreeches said:



			That's proven fact is it? 
Because I would suggest that a) as Daryl didn't receive a ban, he didn't strike the horse more than 9 times in the entire race b) it is virtually impossible to beat a horse to bleeding with a racing whip such is the cushioning
and 
c) the most likely cause of the blood was from the nostril of another horse in the field.

Please stop making a fool of yourself with such stupid (and groundless) accusations.
		
Click to expand...

I've just registered on here as i've been reading this forum since Saturday .. most people talk a lot of sense but a few are saying ridiculous stuff.   Re the above quote, have you actually watched the final run from Saturday coz i think maybe you should.   Seabass was being hit with every stride & so was Neptune Collonges, Sunnyhillboys jockey kept both hands on the reins the whole time !!!


----------



## Dab (16 April 2012)

amandat said:



			I've just registered on here as i've been reading this forum since Saturday .. most people talk a lot of sense but a few are saying ridiculous stuff.   Re the above quote, have you actually watched the final run from Saturday coz i think maybe you should.   Seabass was being hit with every stride & so was Neptune Collonges, Sunnyhillboys jockey kept both hands on the reins the whole time !!!
		
Click to expand...

It might be worthwhile going back to the clip and see if for both of the horses you mention, whether the whip actually makes contact with the horse. Often the jockey will wave the whip (along the side of the horse) and to an untrained eye, it can look as through the horse is being whipped, when in fact the whip is just making a noise and not making contact.

It can be used in this manor (waving) to keep the horse straight or encourage a little more speed!


----------



## amandat (16 April 2012)

Ok point taken & my eye is untrained.   I love the National, i look forward to it every year, i'm still thinking that Synchronised didn't want to run that race & when i saw his reaction to seeing the first jump before the start i thought he didn't want to do it, then the whole mess up with the start shouldn't have happened - the whole race for me woz ruined before it started.


----------



## Baggybreeches (16 April 2012)

amandat said:



			I've just registered on here as i've been reading this forum since Saturday .. most people talk a lot of sense but a few are saying ridiculous stuff.   Re the above quote, have you actually watched the final run from Saturday coz i think maybe you should.   Seabass was being hit with every stride & so was Neptune Collonges, Sunnyhillboys jockey kept both hands on the reins the whole time !!!
		
Click to expand...

I think you will find that I did watch the entire race on Saturday and as someone with a very keen interest I did watch the finish particularly closely. I suggest that all of you armchair critics get yourself on an equicisor session at one of the racing colleges so you can actually understand the way the jockeys ride a finish. And something that is taught throughout, is that the last man to draw his whip usually wins the race, so I don't think jockeys can be accused of being whip happy.


----------



## Amymay (16 April 2012)

I saw Neptune Collenges being led to the winners enclosure, and his hindquarters were bloodied because of being whipped!!
		
Click to expand...

Highly unlikely due to the structure of the whip.

The marks you saw were probably to do with cuts from the fences.

Edt:

In fact, just having found a picture of him finishing the race - the blood on his quarters was no where near where the whip could reach - so they would definitely have been as a result of scraping through a fence.


----------



## Baggybreeches (16 April 2012)

amymay said:



			Highly unlikely due to the structure of the whip.

The marks you saw were probably to do with cuts from the fences.

Edt:

In fact, just having found a picture of him finishing the race - the blood on his quarters was no where near where the whip could reach - so they would definitely have been as a result of scraping through a fence.
		
Click to expand...

I have already explained that is was most likely off another horse (nosebleed, bitten tongue etc).
I said virtually impossible with a racing whip (would say impossible but someone somewhere will try to prove me wrong  )


----------



## Amymay (16 April 2012)

Thanks BB.  Yes, actually you're probably more correct than I - as it looked like a smear, rather than cuts.


----------



## amandat (16 April 2012)

Sorry i don't mean to offend anyone & i've riden all my life - my grandad was a brilliant Trainer.  I've had 2 cousins ride in the National, i'm not anti racing & i know that the horses live for what they do but sadly they also die for it.  I was a bit peeved after reading the comment made by the winning Jockey, i'm also happy that Neptunes was retired immediately after the race


----------



## Honeylight (16 April 2012)

amandat said:



			Sorry i don't mean to offend anyone & i've riden all my life - my grandad was a brilliant Trainer.  I've had 2 cousins ride in the National, i'm not anti racing & i know that the horses live for what they do but sadly they also die for it.  I was a bit peeved after reading the comment made by the winning Jockey, i'm also happy that Neptunes was retired immediately after the race 

Click to expand...

Who was your Grand Dad?

On the subject of whipping I have seen ponies bleeding after Pony Club hunter Trials & rallies but never on a racehorse after a race & they have finer skins than most ponies.


----------



## amandat (16 April 2012)

My grandad moved up from the South to Northern Ireland my nan wouldnt leave Ireland so neither would he ... my cousins rode Kilkilowen & Monanore in the 86 National


----------



## MerrySherryRider (16 April 2012)

TBF, racing whips can leave marks or red weals if used excessively. One reason why horses are examined without rugs covering them post race by the vet.


----------



## Amymay (16 April 2012)

horserider said:



			TBF, racing whips can leave marks or red weals if used excessively. One reason why horses are examined without rugs covering them post race by the vet.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed, but you'd have to do some pretty excessive (and I mean excessive) beating to get blood.  And in the example used by Over2You is inaccurate.


----------



## Maesfen (16 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			Also, will you pro-racers please *STOP* saying the deaths were "accidents"!! They were bloody unavoidable!!
		
Click to expand...

One was brought down by another horse falling so that was an accident.  The other fell, got up jumped a few more fences alone and fell again all by himself,  so that was an accident too.  
I think you'll find that yes, they were both unavoidable accidents although if Synchronised had not followed the field and allowed himself to be caught he might still have been here but that's horses for you.


----------



## Dab (16 April 2012)

amandat said:



			Ok point taken & my eye is untrained.   I love the National, i look forward to it every year, i'm still thinking that Synchronised didn't want to run that race & when i saw his reaction to seeing the first jump before the start i thought he didn't want to do it, then the whole mess up with the start shouldn't have happened - the whole race for me woz ruined before it started.
		
Click to expand...

It might also be suggested that Synchronised reaction to being shown the first fence was not *bugger that* but could be more *let me get back to the others*. 

Often a reason why SJ course builders make a few fences more difficult is by building them going away from the entrance gate, it is because they know that alot of horses will want to get back to 'their mates'. Hence a similiar type of reaction from Synchronised.


----------



## Annie44 (16 April 2012)

millitiger said:



			I love racing but still struggle to see why they allow 40 horses in the GN? 

It is far too many and imo the sheer number of horses NOT the fences is what causes so many falls.

Poor According To Pete who was PTS was brought down by another horse.

Why not limit it to a more sensible number of runners like 20?
		
Click to expand...

I totally agree with the comment above ... these recurring fatalities are caused by the crowding of way too many runners jostling for position.
The course & the jumps are no more dangerous than a grade 1 event course.
Reducing the height of the fences (as has been done in recent years) simply means that more runners are going to get further in the race instead of refusing or pulling up, so getting in each other's way for longer.


----------



## Bolders (16 April 2012)

millitiger said:



			I love racing but still struggle to see why they allow 40 horses in the GN? 

It is far too many and imo the sheer number of horses NOT the fences is what causes so many falls.

Poor According To Pete who was PTS was brought down by another horse.

Why not limit it to a more sensible number of runners like 20?
		
Click to expand...

I totally agree here, I'm also an avid Racing Fan and frankly the two race meets that we all wait for are Cheltenham Festival and Aintree. 

I think that the issue with the GN is the sheer number of horses it starts as a cavalry charge whereas if they limit the entries to 20 runner like most other races the dangers would be a lot less as it would provide more room. 

Horses dont race because they have to they do it because they want to a horses that doesnt want to run simply will not especially where fences of that size are concerned...


----------



## JustKickOn (16 April 2012)

Would anybody like to comment on the two horses that died eventing last week?? Just saying...


----------



## Over2You (16 April 2012)

Maesfen said:



			One was brought down by another horse falling so that was an accident.  The other fell, got up jumped a few more fences alone and fell again all by himself,  so that was an accident too.  
I think you'll find that yes, they were both unavoidable accidents although if Synchronised had not followed the field and allowed himself to be caught he might still have been here but that's horses for you.
		
Click to expand...

So, According to Pete's being brought down wasn't a direct result of another horse falling in an entirely predictable manner?? Given that as many horses start the race, it doesn't take a neurosurgeon to establish the *FACT* that a fallen horse might bring down another one or several!! Synchronised should *NEVER* have run in the first place as many people (even those involved in the industry such as John McCririck) are saying that he wasn't fit enough (either physically or mentally). Both he and Weird Al were run just a month after taking part in another gruelling race (the Cheltenham Gold Cup). In fact, Weird Al was pulled up during the latter after suffering a broken blood vessel. Yet, there he was less than a month later running in the flaming National!! Entering those horses in the National was *ONLY* asking for trouble!! The poor horses probably had not even recovered from their efforts in the Gold Cup. So much for organisers getting tough on entry requirements. Loose horses have been a problem in racing for *YEARS*, so why the hell is it taking the BHA so bloody long to do something about it? If measures had been put in place to prevent loose horses continuing, then Synchronised could still be alive.

To Horse and Hound. Will you *PLEASE* write an article about the death of Gottany Os. It took me to call you out for not reporting the Cheltenham deaths before you actually did so. Even then, it was just a couple of sentences added to the bottom of an article. Not good enough!!


----------



## Maesfen (16 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			Loose horses have been a problem in racing for *YEARS*, so why the hell is it taking the BHA so bloody long to do something about it? If measures had been put in place to prevent loose horses continuing, then Synchronised could still be alive.
		
Click to expand...

What do you suggest, a helicopter with a lasso stationed at every fence?  Get real, how can you make sure a loose horse stops in a race?
During a race there are several people stationed at each fence to do just that, catch any loose horses possible but those are usually ones that have refused the fence so are milling around between fences.  I think  even you will agree it's hard for a human to keep up let alone catch with a galloping horse.


----------



## Andalusianlover1 (16 April 2012)

All you Grand National Haters and Ban the Grand National,, and Make the Grand National safer people have got a lot to answer for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sad 2 horses had to be PTS this year due to unavoidable accidents!

RIP boys!


Years ago when the fences were bigger the horses went slower and there were less accidents.

Years ago when the fences went all the way across the track there were not so many loose horses continuing round the course and there were less accidents.

Years ago when the fences went all the way across the course there was more of the jump for the horses to jump - more space less accidents.

I could go on and on.

The "SAFER" the Grand National has been made, the more dangerous it has become.

Bring on the 2013 Grand National I say, lets hope its as great a race as the 2012 one was.


----------



## Maesfen (16 April 2012)

Agree with you AL1.


----------



## Over2You (16 April 2012)

Maesfen said:



			What do you suggest, a helicopter with a lasso stationed at every fence?  Get real, how can you make sure a loose horse stops in a race?
During a race there are several people stationed at each fence to do just that, catch any loose horses possible but those are usually ones that have refused the fence so are milling around between fences.  I think  even you will agree it's hard for a human to keep up let alone catch with a galloping horse.
		
Click to expand...

I would expect outriders at each and every fence. Ready to (if required) lasso loose horses. Sounds like a perfectly doable solution to me!!


----------



## Amymay (16 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			I would expect outriders at each and every fence. Ready to (if required) lasso loose horses. Sounds like a perfectly doable solution to me!!
		
Click to expand...

They do have outriders in some overseas tracks, and I agree it would be a good solution to catching up loose horses.  I'm not sure what method they employ overseas though.


----------



## Dobiegirl (16 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			I would expect outriders at each and every fence. Ready to (if required) lasso loose horses. Sounds like a perfectly doable solution to me!!
		
Click to expand...

If it wasnt such a serious subject this quote would have made me laugh, this is the worse solution Ive heard to date.


----------



## Annie44 (16 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			I would expect outriders at each and every fence. Ready to (if required) lasso loose horses. Sounds like a perfectly doable solution to me!!
		
Click to expand...

I can't see how this would be possible with all the other runners thundering
around the course, it would be too dangerous & would simply increase the carnage !


----------



## Amymay (16 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			If it wasnt such a serious subject this quote would have made me laugh, this is the worse solution Ive heard to date.
		
Click to expand...

They do actually have outriders on some of the biggest tracks around the world - so not such a laughable solution actually.


----------



## Dab (16 April 2012)

amymay said:



			They do actually have outriders on some of the biggest tracks around the world - so not such a laughable solution actually.
		
Click to expand...

Jump or flat tracks? I've seen outriders in HK (all flat), but this is used to lead the horses out and possibly pick up a loose one. 

How does it work on jump tracks?


----------



## Baggybreeches (16 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			I would expect outriders at each and every fence. Ready to (if required) lasso loose horses. Sounds like a perfectly doable solution to me!!
		
Click to expand...

Over2You, I was already incredulous that you actually had the nerve to put forward John Mc as an authority on horse racing (he is a tic tac man= deals with betting not horses!) 
but then, with the suggestion above you really upped the anti.
Go away, you complete moron!
ETA the reasoning behind the larger field is the FACT that the National fences are nearly double the width (from wing to wing) of regulation chase fences. Anyone who has ridden maiden pointers will appreciate that it can be as scary with 4 random maidens heading at a fence, at least the majority of these horses are proven and seasoned jumpers.


----------



## Dobiegirl (16 April 2012)

amymay said:



			They do actually have outriders on some of the biggest tracks around the world - so not such a laughable solution actually.
		
Click to expand...

What complete with Lassos, I would like to see that, I know outriders at some tracks in the states are employed but these are flat meetings, just imagine the liklihood of chaos if these were at the GN.


----------



## Dobiegirl (16 April 2012)

Baggybreeches said:



			Over2You, I was already incredulous that you actually had the nerve to put forward John Mc as an authority on horse racing (he is a tic tac man= deals with betting not horses!) 
but then, with the suggestion above you really upped the anti.
Go away, you complete moron!
ETA the reasoning behind the larger field is the FACT that the National fences are nearly double the width (from wing to wing) of regulation chase fences. Anyone who has ridden maiden pointers will appreciate that it can be as scary with 4 random maidens heading at a fence, at least the majority of these horses are proven and seasoned jumpers.
		
Click to expand...

One of the most sensible posts to date.


----------



## Amymay (16 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			What complete with Lassos, I would like to see that, I know outriders at some tracks in the states are employed but these are flat meetings, just imagine the liklihood of chaos if these were at the GN.
		
Click to expand...

No, no lassos as far as I'm aware.  I don't know actually if it's jump or flat (but most likely flat come to think of it).  It was actually mentioned on the BBC Grandnational prog as well about the possibility of introducing them to gather up loose horses.

But I have no idea whether it would work, or how sensible the suggestion is...


----------



## Baggybreeches (16 April 2012)

amymay said:



			No, no lassos as far as I'm aware.  I don't know actually if it's jump or flat (but most likely flat come to think of it).  It was actually mentioned on the BBC Grandnational prog as well about the possibility of introducing them to gather up loose horses.

But I have no idea whether it would work, or how sensible the suggestion is...
		
Click to expand...

The loose horses are funnelled off where possible, it's getting them to split away from the field which is the biggest problem.


----------



## Dab (16 April 2012)

Baggybreeches said:



			The loose horses are funnelled off where possible, it's getting them to split away from the field which is the biggest problem.
		
Click to expand...

^^^this


----------



## Amymay (16 April 2012)

Baggybreeches said:



			The loose horses are funnelled off where possible, it's getting them to split away from the field which is the biggest problem.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks BB, wasn't 100% sure how they did it.


----------



## Dobiegirl (16 April 2012)

Amymay you wouldnt be able to gather up the loose horses on the track when the race is still in progress as it could just make the problem so much worse.

They could be used to catch any loose horses that went out one of the escape chutes to stop it going back on the course but thats the only instance where I can see they would be useful.


----------



## Over2You (16 April 2012)

Baggybreeches said:



			Over2You, I was already incredulous that you actually had the nerve to put forward John Mc as an authority on horse racing (he is a tic tac man= deals with betting not horses!) 
but then, with the suggestion above you really upped the anti.
Go away, you complete moron!
ETA the reasoning behind the larger field is the FACT that the National fences are nearly double the width (from wing to wing) of regulation chase fences. Anyone who has ridden maiden pointers will appreciate that it can be as scary with 4 random maidens heading at a fence, at least the majority of these horses are proven and seasoned jumpers.
		
Click to expand...

So, I'm a moron for being anti-racing?? I am a moron for trying to come up with a solution (that is implemented in other countries) that could actually work?? 

As for John McCririck. He must rank lowly in your books since he actually speaks up for horse welfare. He is very vocal about his dislike of whips, so I must give him credit for that.

You actually disgust me with the sheer contempt in which you hold for people who are against racing.


----------



## Baggybreeches (16 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			So, I'm a moron for being anti-racing?? I am a moron for trying to come up with a solution (that is implemented in other countries) that could actually work?? 

As for John McCririck. He must rank lowly in your books since he actually speaks up for horse welfare. He is very vocal about his dislike of whips, so I must give him credit for that.

You actually disgust me with the sheer contempt in which you hold for people who are against racing.
		
Click to expand...

I don't hold anyone in contempt for their views when they are presented with a rational argument backed up with fact.
I even have vegetarian friends........


----------



## Amymay (16 April 2012)

I even have vegetarian friends........
		
Click to expand...

 I fear you may have gone too far.....


----------



## Dab (16 April 2012)

Over2You said:



			...for trying to come up with a solution (that is implemented in other countries) that could actually work??
		
Click to expand...

Can you expand? Interested to know which countries and what type of racing outsiders are used and work.

Thanks


----------



## Baggybreeches (16 April 2012)

amymay said:



 I fear you may have gone too far.....

Click to expand...

Although I did draw the line at donating a raffle prize to the lady who came in yesterday begging for the Linda McCartney charity!


----------



## Amymay (16 April 2012)

USA, Hongkong, Canada, Dubai

This is quite interesting: http://www.keeneland.com/visit/Keeneland Stories/KM_OutridingAll.pdf


But all flat races by the looks of things.

http://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/newsimages/courier-journal_070210.pdf
http://www.saratogian.com/articles/2011/07/27/sports/doc4e2f80a72fe4b071685459.txt


----------



## Dab (16 April 2012)

amymay said:



			This is quite interesting: http://www.keeneland.com/visit/Keeneland Stories/KM_OutridingAll.pdf

Click to expand...

Lovin the 'left-handed prowess' *snigger*...sorry, thanks for posting

Seen it in action on the flat, but as BB said it would be very difficult to split a loose horse away from the pack in a jumprace.


----------



## Amymay (16 April 2012)

Dab said:



			Lovin the 'left-handed prowess' *snigger*...sorry, thanks for posting
		
Click to expand...

Just a different perspective on things.


----------



## Dab (16 April 2012)

amymay said:



			Just a different perspective on things.
		
Click to expand...

Not sniggering about the concept (serves it purpose on the flat), just the brochure...it amused me


----------



## Maesfen (16 April 2012)

Dab said:



			Seen it in action on the flat, but as BB said it would be very difficult to split a loose horse away from the pack in a jumprace.
		
Click to expand...

While you have a couple of catcher uppers at pt to pt, they do not 'trespass' onto the track during a race to catch up but are there to field any that come off the track (courses are not fenced all the way around as they go across fields in most cases)
.
Can you imagine the carnage as Bill rushes off to catch a horse only to find his horse likes it too much and wants to gallop after the field instead of catching said loose horse let alone the chance of colliding with other loose horses or a lowly straggler. H & S would have a field day and there would be more calamities than there already have been by the 'safer' changes so far
.
Yep, that has to be one of the stupidest suggestions I've seen all year, OTY surpassed themselves this time.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 April 2012)

Cold crumpets - BLERGH!!!!


----------



## Dobiegirl (16 April 2012)

Maesfen said:



			While you have a couple of catcher uppers at pt to pt, they do not 'trespass' onto the track during a race to catch up but are there to field any that come off the track (courses are not fenced all the way around as they go across fields in most cases)
.
Can you imagine the carnage as Bill rushes off to catch a horse only to find his horse likes it too much and wants to gallop after the field instead of catching said loose horse let alone the chance of colliding with other loose horses or a lowly straggler. H & S would have a field day and there would be more calamities than there already have been by the 'safer' changes so far
.
Yep, that has to be one of the stupidest suggestions I've seen all year, OTY surpassed themselves this time. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




Click to expand...

But you are forgetting one thing your trusty lasso

God forbid if once lassoed it took off and the resulting carnage.


----------



## Dab (16 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			But you are forgetting one thing your trusty lasso

God forbid if once lassoed it took off and the resulting carnage.
		
Click to expand...

Apologise in advance...

forget the bleedin lasso...indian blow pipes and elephant tranquilizers....here's hoping one doesnt end up in a jockey


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 April 2012)

I remember watching a race in America on YouTube, not sure if it is still up, where one of the Outriders that lead horses to the start got bolted with - head on into the racehorses racing - they met a furlong from home when all the jockeys heads were down driving their horses - horse went into horse at high speed - both went up in the air - all came down in a heap - 2 dead horses - 2 dead humans. 

There are enough horses out on the course at Aintree to avoid without adding in extra "Outriders" that's just ridiculous and dangerous! What you need is a team of people in 4x4's who can go round at the back and drop off people to collect loose horses that have stopped and are milling about. Bring them off the track into the centre of the course where they are out of harms way and can cause no further disruption. There is absolutely no need to add yet more horses to the melay.


----------



## Amymay (16 April 2012)

EKW how awful.


----------



## Maesfen (16 April 2012)

EKW said:



			There are enough horses out on the course at Aintree to avoid without adding in extra "Outriders" that's just ridiculous and dangerous! What you need is a team of people in 4x4's who can go round at the back and drop off people to collect loose horses that have stopped and are milling about. Bring them off the track into the centre of the course where they are out of harms way and can cause no further disruption. There is absolutely no need to add yet more horses to the melay.
		
Click to expand...

EKW, this is already done, has been for years and they are in place at every jump and various bends where the horses might run off.  I know, many of my friends have done it for years.


----------



## s4sugar (16 April 2012)

Just a thought but couldn't it be arranged that every entrant for the Grand National should have either a hunting qualification or have attended special schooling runs over the Aintree fences which differ from standard NH jumps.
This and reinstating the larger fences may make the course safer as it would weed out the horses that are at their limits.

The loss of two good horses was tragic but when look at the race list more riders were unseated than had the horse fall.

BTW the BHS statement echoed that of WHW, very sensible.


----------



## Dab (16 April 2012)

s4sugar said:



			Just a thought but couldn't it be arranged that every entrant for the Grand National should have either a hunting qualification or have attended special schooling runs over the Aintree fences which differ from standard NH jumps.
This and reinstating the larger fences may make the course safer as it would weed out the horses that are at their limits.

The loss of two good horses was tragic but when look at the race list more riders were unseated than had the horse fall.

BTW the BHS statement echoed that of WHW, very sensible.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure the hunting thing would work, for one it would be a good call to arms for the anti's! Also how do you know if the horse has actually jumped around hedges or large fences - who police's that?

Qualification races over the Aintree fences might be a better option.


----------



## Bearskin (16 April 2012)

I hate seeing horses die on the racecourse (or anywhere) and cringed when I watched the falls in the National on Saturday.  But sadly death is a fact of life and racing is a risk sport.  

Before we call for a ban of the Grand National, perhaps we should put things into perspective:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...-smith-on-the-wildlife-holocaust-1384964.html

Should we ban the motor car first?


----------



## Bearskin (16 April 2012)

From a US website:

"The Numbing Numbers
Everyday in the U.S., 190 million motor vehicles hit the road, and one million animals get hit by motor vehicles. That's counting cars, buses, motorbikes, and trucks, but not ATVs, snowmobiles and other off-road vehicles. The figure includes mammals, birds, reptiles, and amphibians, but not insects and bugs, who somehow never count. 

Every year our nation's experimenters kill 100 million lab animals, hunters kill 200 million "game" animals, and motorists kill nearly 400 million road animals. Only America's meat-eaters take a larger toll than its motorists. 

For every dead animal counted, three or four more die unnoticed. Even at 55 m.p.h., we smell the remains of far more dead skunks than we see. The walking wounded die far from the road, so only instantly killed animals are seen and get counted. 

But who's counting? During the late 1950s, in a roadside version of the Audubon's Christmas bird counts, the Humane Society of the United States conducted some Fourth of July body counts. During the 1970s, again groping for numbers, the Humane Society compiled data from isolated scientific studies of single roads or single species. Its secondary sources yielded the same national death toll as its field studies: one million animals a day."

The rest of the article is also interesting reading:

http://www.culturechange.org/issue8/roadkill.htm

Two horses die in the Grand National and we are appalled.  Millions of animals die on the roads each year because of Man's need/love to drive cars.  Do we care?  Would we care more if it was headline news?  Will it stop us driving?


----------



## Dobiegirl (16 April 2012)

Every horse has to qualify for the GN and Im sure all the trainers school their horses over GN type fences.

The hunting idea wont work as point to pointers have to hunt to qualify and their defination of hunting is different to mine. On the odd occasion trainers have sent horses hunting to sweeten them up but I think its a rare occurrence.


----------



## Miss L Toe (16 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Every horse has to qualify for the GN and Im sure all the trainers school their horses over GN type fences.

The hunting idea wont work as point to pointers have to hunt to qualify and their defination of hunting is different to mine. On the odd occasion trainers have sent horses hunting to sweeten them up but I think its a rare occurrence.
		
Click to expand...

We used to send one or two hunting, but it was a high risk strategy, as the fences and the ground they are asked to run over are not as safe as those we build at home. Hunting helps bored horses, but would be a disaster for many NH horses.


----------



## Dab (16 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Every horse has to qualify for the GN and Im sure all the trainers school their horses over GN type fences.

The hunting idea wont work as point to pointers have to hunt to qualify and their defination of hunting is different to mine. On the odd occasion trainers have sent horses hunting to sweeten them up but I think its a rare occurrence.
		
Click to expand...

What is the qualification for the GN? Is it just ratings based or something more?

Is schooling over GN type fences the same as seeing if they up to the challenge of a full or near full course, with a field of runners?


----------



## Baggybreeches (16 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Every horse has to qualify for the GN and Im sure all the trainers school their horses over GN type fences.

The hunting idea wont work as point to pointers have to hunt to qualify and their defination of hunting is different to mine. On the odd occasion trainers have sent horses hunting to sweeten them up but I think its a rare occurrence.
		
Click to expand...

I did hunt mine properly and they often stayed out all day (behaviour permitting!) but proper NH horses and pointers don't hunt it is too risky (and embarrassing!).


----------



## Dobiegirl (16 April 2012)

To qualify for the GN they have to have won or be placed in races this is to weed out the no hopers.

As for schooling over GN fences you could say the same about any race the horses are schooled over fences like they are going to meet in a race.

Baggybreeches I used to hunt my bf horse to qualify for point to points and he stayed out all day, I was careful with him but no more than I would with any horse. It used to pee me off at others who used to come to the meet, hack around the roads and go home after an hour. My bf horses won ptps and also some races and was a very fit and sound horse.


----------



## Dab (16 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			To qualify for the GN they have to have won or be placed in races this is to weed out the no hopers.

As for schooling over GN fences you could say the same about any race the horses are schooled over fences like they are going to meet in a race.

Baggybreeches I used to hunt my bf horse to qualify for point to points and he stayed out all day, I was careful with him but no more than I would with any horse. It used to pee me off at others who used to come to the meet, hack around the roads and go home after an hour. My bf horses won ptps and also some races and was a very fit and sound horse.
		
Click to expand...

Ok thanks, just looked it up (i was being lazy before) and they need to have finished fourth or better in a chase over three miles or more, with a minimum rating of 120.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 April 2012)

A very interesting article that I am sure will help many understand the reasoning behind putting these horses down.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/sep/23/claims-five-broken-leg-horse?CMP=twt_gu


----------



## Annie44 (16 April 2012)

When the fences were higher many of the loose horses would refuse at the next fence & would either run off the course via the shute for this purpose
or would be caught up & removed as soon as the other runners were clear of that section, either way most of the loose ones were quickly out of harms way. Now they run on with the rest of the field causing danger to themselves & all those around them.


----------



## Cumulonimbus (17 April 2012)

EKW said:



			A very interesting article that I am sure will help many understand the reasoning behind putting these horses down.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/sep/23/claims-five-broken-leg-horse?CMP=twt_gu

Click to expand...

Cheers for that, good article


----------



## TheDutchy (17 April 2012)

I honestly think in my humble opinion one of the reasons for so many fallers in this and the other races was the fences wern't big enough!! they have been lowered for so called safety which actualy allows the horse to jump them faster which equals more mistakes instead of backing them off and jumping more carefully! also if you look at the races beforehand with faller it was mostly over the final 3 fences on home straight over smaller fences where jockeys have perhaps pushed horse out of rhythm when they have made a mistake and fell - so imho make the fences bigger to back horses off not forgetting these experienced horses an jockeys know the top 3ft of fences can be brushed thru!!


----------

