# new puppy is bullying my older dog :(



## nat_1 (9 October 2011)

I have a 6yo staff who i have had from a pup.i have just taken on a 16wk old staff 4 days ago from a friend who has already had 3 homes.
The problem is the pup keeps biting the older one,taking his food and taking his bed.
Older dog keeps going up the top of garden just sitting there for ages or by the back door shaking,he wont show any aggression to pup to put him in his place b/c thats the way weve bought him up with our kids.
We make extra fuss of older one and make sure hes not left out,but every time i shout at pup older one thinks its at him and makes him run up garden again.
Ive borrowed a crate today but obviously we cant use that as punishment.
Im just wondering if anyone else has been in this situation and what they did.


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## fidleyspromise (9 October 2011)

I havent been in this situation but to my mind, rather than use the crate as punishment (as you say), get pup comfortable with it so he's settled in there. don't shout at pup and if he gets too rough etc, simply remove him from situation and into his crate.
he gets to come out when he's calm and settled and when too rough, he goes into his crate - not as punishment but more as time to himself to calm down.

Others will be able to help much more.
Good luck and hugs to your old lad.


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## nat_1 (9 October 2011)

thanks,yeah i ve been putting him in his crate for 3 mins at a time every hour or so today. tomorrow ill do 5 mins at a time.i never let him out when hes barking tho,i wait 10 secs after barking.

to be fair he hasnt been as bad with older dog today as the last 3,but im now more worried about my other dog keeping issolating himself from all of us and hes not eating.

i am determined to see this through,im not giving up on the pup as hes already had 3 homes.i just feel so so sorry for our other dog.


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## MrVelvet (9 October 2011)

Im a one dog family. however, i do have a young baby with whom said puppy loves to play with!! which is fine! Untill she gets a bit rough, she careers around and has knocked her over once  now at feeding times, changing times, bedtime wind down times and times when shes hyper she goes in her crate. She can be in it for an hour or so, it does her no harm! She gets fed in her crate, her waters in there and sometimes she even takes herself off into there! The crate has been a god send  she hated it at first and whined and whined, i left her at least 20 mins calm before I let her out. Whining will not hurt a dog, and IMO 10 seconds isnt long enough to win the battle 


eta - also 5 mins at a time isnt enough for the pup to get comfortable and used to being crated.


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## letrec_fan (9 October 2011)

Perhaps you could seperate them (as in, different rooms) when they eat so the older dog doesn't feel pressurised. Give the older dog his space, create an area in a room with a bed which only he has access to. Pay the older dog attention first - while seperated but so they can still see one another, then tend to the pup afterwards. Feed the older dog first etc and like you say, with the crate, ease situations by removing pup to the crate when he starts to bite. Try to keep calm, if you shout at the pup, he is likely to see this as praise, regardless of whether it is negative or not. Also, if older dog makes a fuss when pup bites, ignore him - if you fuss him when he reacts like this, he will pick up that it is something to worry about. Also, if time allows, maybe go for seperate walks to allow them time away from each other or seperate them in the house maybe with a stair/child gate between rooms and then allow them together every so often - as soon as pup bites, remove him to the cage (so he cannot see older dog) and leave it a while before putting them back together. Over time, he should learn that to be together with everyone and given attention, he has to behave. One more thing, praise the pup when he behaves well around the older dog, so that you have grounds to correct him (crate) when he bites. 

I am sure other people on here will be able to give you some really good advice, but I hope this maybe helps.


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## nat_1 (9 October 2011)

im new to cage training,never had to do it before.
it was when i was researching on websites that they said to build up times in crates from 3 mins at a time.
 the 10 seconds thing was the time after barking/whining stopped before letting it out or it will assosiate barking with being let out.
if 20 mins is for the start of training i will happily do that lol!!


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## nat_1 (9 October 2011)

letrec_fan said:



			Perhaps you could seperate them (as in, different rooms) when they eat so the older dog doesn't feel pressurised. Give the older dog his space, create an area in a room with a bed which only he has access to. Pay the older dog attention first - while seperated but so they can still see one another, then tend to the pup afterwards. Feed the older dog first etc and like you say, with the crate, ease situations by removing pup to the crate when he starts to bite. Try to keep calm, if you shout at the pup, he is likely to see this as praise, regardless of whether it is negative or not. Also, if older dog makes a fuss when pup bites, ignore him - if you fuss him when he reacts like this, he will pick up that it is something to worry about. Also, if time allows, maybe go for seperate walks to allow them time away from each other or seperate them in the house maybe with a stair/child gate between rooms and then allow them together every so often - as soon as pup bites, remove him to the cage (so he cannot see older dog) and leave it a while before putting them back together. Over time, he should learn that to be together with everyone and given attention, he has to behave. One more thing, praise the pup when he behaves well around the older dog, so that you have grounds to correct him (crate) when he bites. 

I am sure other people on here will be able to give you some really good advice, but I hope this maybe helps.
		
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that is good advise about not making too much fuss of older one after puppy has played him up b/c his quiet behaviour has got worse over the days.


i do feed older dog first(well i put his food in his dish)but he ignores it.i leave pup in another room,then i remove older dogs food,then feed pup in his dish.

today i took older one for walk on  his own to let him have a blast round fields,he loved it ,but was back to very sad when he got back home


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## CorvusCorax (9 October 2011)

I had something similar when my new pup arrived, I was being waaay too soft on him and allowing him to mess about - use your body to block him and at the same time give the other dog confidence, don't lose your temper, don't scream and don't shout. 

I have had to step in and hold the younger dog by the scruff, take him away and hold him (not dump him on the ground or roll him!) until he calms down and remembers his manners. Also distracting him with food or a ball and praising him for calling away from the older dog and leaving him alone. Old school I know and I may get flamed, but a rolled up newspaper and a tap on the bum got him to snap out of being a brat as well (to whoever I baulked at for using that method a few years ago, I apologise   ) not a real smack, just an 'oi, watch it!' then praise for leaving the old dog alone and focusing on and listening to me.

Don't LET him take the older dog's food, don't LET him take the bed, if you have to physically remove him and place him in a more appropriate place, do so. Every time he goes to the other dog's bed, remove him, if it takes all night, every night for a week, do it, let him know it is not acceptable.

My boys are never together unsupervised and do not run together, the older dog is quite intolerant, the young one just wants to play and gad about and it is not fair to force them to be in each other's company just at the moment until the dynamic has been sorted out.


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## Cinnamontoast (9 October 2011)

Like ^^

If the adult dog won't discipline the pup, you might have to as already described. Ask Cayla for her crate training guide. It's very useful. 

I made the mistake of not allowing big dog to tell off the pups so he started not doing it anymore. When I realised he should be doing it, I encouraged him to tell them (under supervision, obviously) and he's really good with them now.


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## The Original Kao (9 October 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			I had something similar when my new pup arrived, I was being waaay too soft on him and allowing him to mess about - use your body to block him and at the same time give the other dog confidence, don't lose your temper, don't scream and don't shout. 

I have had to step in and hold the younger dog by the scruff, take him away and hold him (not dump him on the ground or roll him!) until he calms down and remembers his manners. Also distracting him with food or a ball and praising him for calling away from the older dog and leaving him alone. Old school I know and I may get flamed, but a rolled up newspaper and a tap on the bum got him to snap out of being a brat as well (to whoever I baulked at for using that method a few years ago, I apologise   ) not a real smack, just an 'oi, watch it!' then praise for leaving the old dog alone and focusing on and listening to me.

Don't LET him take the older dog's food, don't LET him take the bed, if you have to physically remove him and place him in a more appropriate place, do so. Every time he goes to the other dog's bed, remove him, if it takes all night, every night for a week, do it, let him know it is not acceptable.

My boys are never together unsupervised and do not run together, the older dog is quite intolerant, the young one just wants to play and gad about and it is not fair to force them to be in each other's company just at the moment until the dynamic has been sorted out.
		
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^^^this

My old girl Tess was quite good at telling off the pup when she was being annoying to her but the pup tended to push it and Tess was a very tolerant lady. I would step in if I felt Tess was tolerating a bit too much and grabbed the scruff of the pups neck, just like CC said above. 
I also fed them at the same time, but guarded Tess' food and made sure the pup knew it was off limits to her. 
Pup also has a crate where she can have a time out. 
I'm also very lucky in that I take people's dogs for them when they go on holiday, so I've had 4 males and 1 female so far since getting the pup 6 weeks ago, not all at the same time lol spaced out over the 6 weeks.  They've also been a great help at letting pup know what's tolerated and what's not without them being nasty. They've just had a conversation with her with growling and a snap on the odd occasion if she ignores the growl. She's never needed more than that and she's never had a hair on her head hurt in the process. 
She's also wonderful with dogs she meets in the outside world now and submits right away to them until she knows they're friendly. ( we know the friendly local dogs and the 1's to avoid).


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## MurphysMinder (9 October 2011)

As others have said, it is up to you to make sure the pup doesn't take liberties with your older dog.  We got a new pup a couple of months ago, our GSD actually loves him, but has been a bit soft at disciplining him and he went through a spell about a month ago of really pushing his luck with her, all she did was look beseechingly at me to stop him biting her.   I stepped in every time and removed him from her and gave him a "time out", usually out in the hallway.  I don't use his cage when I am removing him from the situation like this as I don't want him to see it as punishment, however, he does go in there frequently during the day for a short spell while I spend a bit of time with her.  He sleeps happily in the cage overnight without a squeak.
If you pm Cayla I am sure she will send you a copy of her crate training guide (a donation to adopt a dog NE at the same time is always welcome although she will tell me off for saying that).


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## Foxhunter49 (9 October 2011)

I agree with CC.

I have four fox hound pups at the moment and they have all learned to listen to the older dogs when they get snapped at.
The elderly Lab is not over steady on his feet and two of the pups think it is great fun to charge into him and send him flying so, I will intervene as CC does.

You need to borrow my GSD bitch as she protects the old Lab and has no worries about fixing those dastardly hound pups when they bully the old boy.


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## echodomino (9 October 2011)

natalie_1 said:



			today i took older one for walk on  his own to let him have a blast round fields,he loved it ,but was back to very sad when he got back home 

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I'd say that's normal, he's presumably had you to himself for the 6yrs you've had him? My JRT, Millie, sulked when I had her daughter back, was ok with me keeping her son, then she and her son sulked when I had my 2 puppies. They're fine now so it'll be worth persevering. Poor little fella being homed so many times so young


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## CAYLA (9 October 2011)

As above, if you dog will not reprimand (which is the better scenario) then don't be affraid to do so yourself, use your body as suggested to help aid you to shuffle him away literally blokcing his advances towards the elder or get his collar and remove him.
You can also use "time out" so for intance if both in the sitting room and pup is bouncing like tigger all over the elder take pup swiftl by the colar and removehim to he kitchen (no talk) after a few minutes and when he is quiet let him re enter (no talk of fuss) if h maes a bee line then emove him once more and doit as many tms as it tas for him t associate calm= remaining in the room
The more time he is there (your home) the less exciting the older dogs becomes and the more the older will tolerate him.
For the meantime try and make all conact positive. Walking them together is perfect, this takes the puppys distraction away as he will be more interested in he world aroun him and whilst this is happening the older dog gets some "time out" to relax (positive association) also play with and distract your puppy allowing the older to chill out and watch on. tie out in the garden with positive distraction is more down time for the elder dog too, again fill a kong and let pup eat his breakfast from it out there.
You could also place a lead on him (training lead) and give him a sharp check as a reprimand away from the elder pester = check.

Place the pup in the crate with A kong/large raw bones and cover it with a blanket so he can only view out of one side and allow your older dog the same in he comfort of his bed (same room) this is more quiet time and more positive association and it will help with he crate training REMEMBER, to lift kongs/bones and box them asoon as the pup is released you don't want fights over posessions) then again when you have another session kongs/bones back out.
All you are doing is creating positive scenarios whereby the pup is not able to pester the elder as he is otherwsie distracted

You can defintely up that time in the crate (as suggested  have a crate guide) Pm me if you would like a copy (there is alot of puppy traning stuff) in the guide too which may help

I dare bet he has been passed around because he is a typical bouncy staffy baby that just needs some boundaries and routine and some patience and it sounds like you are the one to give him it


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## nat_1 (9 October 2011)

Thankyou for all the replys.
I dont let the pup get away with any of it,i always remove him from the situation and put him in another room till calm again.
My main problem now is the older dog being worried and always wanting to be in another room when the pup only so much as being in same room and looking at him.pup over last day n half is starting to understand that when i tell him no and remove him that it was wrong,its just knowing how i can get other dogs confidence back.
Im so drained from it all lol!


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## CAYLA (10 October 2011)

What I suggested should help bring the elder round, re the quieter/more entertained the pup is around him, the better association he will have of him.
Offer up some goodies to the older when the pup is crated (kong) stuffed with his food and tuna/pilchards/sardines/or sandwich paste/primula cheese.
Lots of walks with both on lead.
Puppy in the crate time and elder having pamper time.


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## Naryafluffy (10 October 2011)

natalie_1 said:



			Thankyou for all the replys.
I dont let the pup get away with any of it,i always remove him from the situation and put him in another room till calm again.
My main problem now is the older dog being worried and always wanting to be in another room when the pup only so much as being in same room and looking at him.pup over last day n half is starting to understand that when i tell him no and remove him that it was wrong,its just knowing how i can get other dogs confidence back.
Im so drained from it all lol!
		
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My friend had an older dog like that, she couldn't be bothered with the new puppy and always avoided her, they're fine now (puppy is now 2yo) just took time for puppy to realise that older dog didn't want to play.


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## nat_1 (10 October 2011)

CAYLA said:



			What I suggested should help bring the elder round, re the quieter/more entertained the pup is around him, the better association he will have of him.
Offer up some goodies to the older when the pup is crated (kong) stuffed with his food and tuna/pilchards/sardines/or sandwich paste/primula cheese.
Lots of walks with both on lead.
Puppy in the crate time and elder having pamper time.
		
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thankyou cayla for your exellent advice!

trouble is when i crate the pup he continualy whines and barks.i ignore it,it can go on for ages for me but the older dog still lies shaking when hes in same room as us and crate or by back door.
he wont take any food off me,he wont eat at all,he is just so scared.
this morning in the garden i caught puppy pulling older dogs collar tighter and tighter he could have been strangled to death! that was in the space of 10 seconds not watching them!


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## EAST KENT (10 October 2011)

Two male staffies are a very bad combination;it is almost a certanty that in time there will be a major permanent fall out,rehome the young one.Maybe your older boy already senses this..and do  listen to him before there is a very nasty event.


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## nat_1 (10 October 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Two male staffies are a very bad combination;it is almost a certanty that in time there will be a major permanent fall out,rehome the young one.Maybe your older boy already senses this..and do  listen to him before there is a very nasty event.
		
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in your opinion is that just 2 male staffs together, any 2 male dogs of same breed together or 2 male dags of any breed?


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## Sue C (10 October 2011)

we had a similar problem after rescueing a 10 year old and 8 month old dogs.  The yonger one used to take the older ones food, we had a dog training round and he showed us different things to do.  The main one,  if they take each others food dont shout at them but push them away with your leg and dont say anything and with anything dont use your hands but your legs.  Also distract the puppy with something more enjoyable when he goes for the older one.

I have to say now my two sorted it all out they are great friends and play all the time.

Good luck x


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## nat_1 (10 October 2011)

Well today has been an improvement,the older dog hasnt been sitting by back door or up the garden half as much as yesterday.hes been in. same room as us and pup.im not saying hes happier but i think hes starting to accept.pup has only pestered half as much and ive removed him each time.he has walked straight passed him a few times without even looking at older one so fingers crossed...


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## Luci07 (10 October 2011)

You could also get in contact with Staffie Welfare for support as well? I can't really help as I have 2 bitches and a dog (all staffords) and my youngest bitch is also on her 4th home. I am lucky in that her previous owner had put effort into training her but even so there are times she is a bit much for my other 2 and I do have to step in!


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## EAST KENT (10 October 2011)

Just in the more dominant breeds Natalie,for instance most "fighting" based breeds,Rhodesian Ridgebacks,Rotties and some more "spicey" terriers. There ARE exceptions,but generally two of the same sex,esp. male in these breeds are asking for trouble.
   Staffies were originally bred to fight,the gene is still there,it only needs something to ignite it..anything from a dropped hankie or sweet wrapper can do it,an excuse if things are pending.  Personally I do not sell a male bullie or terrier into a home containing another male of any breed,almost always it will eventually go wrong..and as I take my misfits back,I try and avoid doing that too often!
  Hound breeds (except RR`s) are usually fine ,in a pack the boys all get along
 but then a staffie fall out is a whole different thing to a foxhound or spaniels one.Deadly and silent in a nutshell.
  It will be the young one who kicks off,give it six months or so,and I bet your six year old knows this all too well.Listen to him.


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## CorvusCorax (10 October 2011)

Homes for staffs are not exactly thick on the ground and he has been rehomed three times already.
Natalie, I am glad you say you see an improvement but the hanging on the collar, you say they were unsupervised for ten seconds - if it is possible not to let that happen again, don't let it happen again.
With me, I know it is my older dog who would do the damage and I owe it to both of them not to let that happen. If you have the facilities and the patience, just be watchful and don't assume it will be happy families forever after, but I don't think you should rehome the younger dog


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## christine48 (10 October 2011)

You have to nip this in the bud now and reprimand the pup for any aggressive behaviour. If you don't eventually it will attack the older Staffie and that won't be fair.
It doesn't help that the pup has had 3 homes already. Have you ever watched Caeser Milan the dog whisperer? He's very good and works on getting the dog stable and letting it know where it is in the pack ( which needs to be below you and the other staffie). 
I feel sorry for the older one and if in the long run he's going to be miserable you may have to think whether it's fair to keep the pup.


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## nat_1 (10 October 2011)

The older one is my priority.if one had to go it would b. the pup no question.
But we have come quite far last 2 days.they stay in same room now on seperate setees supervised always.
Ive took them for 3 long walks today always allowing older one to be slightly in front,he still loves his walks even with the pup and funily enough he is the dominant one on walks.if pup goes to cross in front of him he barges him out the way.things are definatly,slowley getting better.
Like i said if it went beyond my 6yr ols saftey pup would unfortunatly have to be rehomed again.im just trying to give him a good chance,hes already learned sit and lie down wirh clicker training,he loves all that and loves to please,would b a shame to undo it all


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## CorvusCorax (10 October 2011)

Gah and just to be a spoilsport, when you say long walks, he is only 16 weeks, don't overcook the younger one, just because they *can* do huge amounts of exercise does not mean that it is good for their joints long-term. I'm still only really doing an hour or 90 minutes max (45 morning and evening) exercise in total for my nine month old and the rest is all training/manners/thinking work.


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## nat_1 (10 October 2011)

Oh lol my long walks are only 20-25 mins if that,its just going round 2 blocks instead of just our one n thats enough lol


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## nat_1 (10 October 2011)

Actually its probs 15-20 mins


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