# "Silver Dun".. it's grey.



## Hoof_Prints (19 October 2017)

Pointless post really, but it seems increasingly common for people to advertise grey horses as "silver dun" because they have a darker mane or tail, or sometimes even without the latter.  It's grey, and only going to get whiter! It does sound pretty of course do people really fall for it?


----------



## ester (19 October 2017)

that or roan


----------



## Leo Walker (19 October 2017)

Im always stunned at how many people just dont know how grey works. They look at me like I'm speaking in tongues when I explain their pretty dapple grey will eventually go white!


----------



## Mike007 (19 October 2017)

Every year I have to invent a new colour description for Bob the notacob. Practically Palomino does for the summer ,but the winter coat is another matter .Ginga-loosa worked for a while ,Ginger with ginger and black spots,(yes seriously) Then one year he had his "David Bowie "phase ,with an almost glittering streak down his shoulder. This year we are doing a more mature liver chestnut with "surfer dude "blonde mane.


----------



## millikins (19 October 2017)

Hoof_Prints said:



			Pointless post really, but it seems increasingly common for people to advertise grey horses as "silver dun" because they have a darker mane or tail, or sometimes even without the latter.  It's grey, and only going to get whiter! It does sound pretty of course do people really fall for it?
		
Click to expand...

I saw it too, the horse is GREY, no hint of anything remotely dun about it!


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (20 October 2017)

There's a lass with a shetland that she insist's is chestnut. It's grey. It's only 2yo and still has brown tinges in it's mane, tail and winter coat but it is silver underneath just now and was mostly silver with a random white patch in the summer. 

I do find it funny when people don't realise that their lovely dapple grey will eventually go white! To be fair my 14yo tb still has silver joints, a few dapples on his thighs, silver top of the tail and mane and forelock.


----------



## KittenInTheTree (20 October 2017)

My very definitely bay roan was originally advertised as being grey dun as a foal. No, I have no idea either!


----------



## PapaverFollis (20 October 2017)

People not understanding the very basic mechanism of grey..(.i.e. they start dark and go light and no they are not effing roan) really really makes me disproportionately angry. I too have had that incredulous look when talking in passing about someone's dappled grey eventually being white.

Silver dun is a new low though. :lol:


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (20 October 2017)

Yes and my pretty 15 month old filly DID start as I dun and white hairs started at 3  1/2.  by 24 she was white with brown hairs within her coat but she was grey
 I took pictures on every birthday so saw the change. (much to my disappointment)


My new mare is  was bay in her passport  dapple when I bought her at 6  and I know she will be white in the end like most of us will be.


----------



## rosiesowner (20 October 2017)

I think Chilli is conclusive proof that yes, even the most dark dappled grey horses do go white...


----------



## rosiesowner (20 October 2017)

rosiesowner said:



			I think Chilli is conclusive proof that yes, even the most dark dappled grey horses do go white...
		
Click to expand...

But wait, perhaps she is just a very light silver dun/roan


----------



## Leo Walker (20 October 2017)

rosiesowner said:



			But wait, perhaps she is just a very light silver dun/roan 

Click to expand...

I think shes really a silver dapple. That seems to be the other popular colour of later. Its got dapples so it must be a rare silver dapple surely?

Or all the flipping bays with panagre who are dun, definitely 100% dun. They have light shading on their muzzles and tummy, that definitely 100% makes them dun! I'm gritting my teeth in rage just typing this!


----------



## Jo1987 (20 October 2017)

I havent seen many horses described as silver dun but I see horses advertised as chocolate dun when theyre actually a sooty buckskin or sometimes even just bay/brown at least once a fortnight.


----------



## DappleDown (20 October 2017)

Hoof_Prints said:



			Pointless post really, but it seems increasingly common for people to advertise grey horses as "silver dun" because they have a darker mane or tail, or sometimes even without the latter.  It's grey, and only going to get whiter! It does sound pretty of course do people really fall for it?
		
Click to expand...

In that case we definitely have an Iron Grey Dun...    

Cheers Leo, not heard that one - that means our very own 'Dapple' is a rare Silver Dapple. He must be worth more money now then! Horaah!


----------



## Hoof_Prints (20 October 2017)

Jo1987 said:



			I havent seen many horses described as silver dun but I see horses advertised as chocolate dun when theyre actually a sooty buckskin or sometimes even just bay/brown at least once a fortnight.
		
Click to expand...

Oh yes, the very yummy sounding "chocolate dun"   But yeah, more often than not it's just a brown horse or the bay with pangare 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets wound up by this


----------



## Embo (20 October 2017)

When I bought my horse almost 4 years ago, he was mostly white but still had some dapples on his thighs and hocks/knees were still darker. He's now almost completely white, the dapples are gone and his hocks/knees have faded. However, liver-coloured spots have started to appear on his face.

Clearly he's going to be spotty... Does that make him a silver-leopard-spot?


----------



## Widgeon (20 October 2017)

Mike007 said:



			Ginga-loosa worked for a while ,Ginger with ginger and black spots
		
Click to expand...

Haha! This made me laugh a lot.


----------



## Goldenstar (20 October 2017)

Saw a horse recently described as silver dun I was too polite to say it's grey .


----------



## cauda equina (20 October 2017)

Why do people get so hung up about this?
A horse is the colour he is. What someone chooses to call that colour doesn't change anything


----------



## Meowy Catkin (20 October 2017)

I think that there are two reasons why accuracy is important. 1, identification eg the correct colour should be in the passport. 2, to stop people charging extra for a rare colour when that horse isn't that colour anyway.

ETA- 3, for breeding. There are certain colours that shouldn't be bred together. If you don't know what colour the stallion and mare actually are, how can you make the right breeding choice? EG you should never breed two frame overos together due to the possibility of a lethal white foal being produced. Plus combining grey and two copies of cream in the same horse is thought of as a bad thing to do due to the increased possibility of skin issues.


----------



## Wheels (20 October 2017)

Yes I came across a silver dun the other day - can't be grey because she has a dorsal stripe (counter shading really)

Even though she is a Connie x TB so no dun in either breed


----------



## pip6 (20 October 2017)

Genuine question about my girls colouring. She's chestnut, with sabiano and robiano. That's fine, but she has two small brownish patches, one on her face and one on her rump. I've never found a name to describe them or ever seen dark brown patches on a chestnut pure bred arab.


----------



## SpringArising (20 October 2017)

Greys or simple chestnuts being described as roans are my pet hate. Or buckskins as duns.


----------



## Hoof_Prints (20 October 2017)

SpringArising said:



			Greys or simple chestnuts being described as roans are my pet hate. Or buckskins as duns.
		
Click to expand...

The amount of times people call buckskins duns, it becomes more effort than it's worth to explain it ! Because they often still disagree after anyway  so I've found


----------



## Annagain (20 October 2017)

I have a beautiful fleabitten dun. Or maybe he's a negative bay roan?


----------



## Leo Walker (20 October 2017)

pip6 said:



			Genuine question about my girls colouring. She's chestnut, with sabiano and robiano. That's fine, but she has two small brownish patches, one on her face and one on her rump. I've never found a name to describe them or ever seen dark brown patches on a chestnut pure bred arab.
		
Click to expand...

Ink spot/ ben dor spots? This is a pretty extreme example


----------



## LeannePip (20 October 2017)

My horse is obviously a unicorn with locks of silver  

Would love if anyone could tell me the cause of this;  doesn't seem apparant in any of her full or half siblings either - Mum was Bay, Dad was grey (white) if that has any bearing?







The one on the left is obviously a very few spot appy


----------



## ester (20 October 2017)

I have spotted a few others that have cropped up like your girl on the genetics sites LP, all warmbloods IIRC, but no one knows what is causing it still! In Germany apparently they call it 'Grahlshüter-syndrome'  (he's a horse!)


----------



## Leo Walker (20 October 2017)

Have you got a side on picture. Id have just said flaxen chestnut but if Ester didnt then shes probably not. I'm curious now!


----------



## ester (20 October 2017)

Only probably 

She's bay with a salt and pepper mane. (iirc tail is more black?) 

On the equine colour genetics group if you search for 'salt and pepper' a thread comes up with a few, examples, all seem to have more of this effect in mane than tail, though some white hairs can be seen in tails too. Lesli has a very short mention on the tapestry pages (she calls them flaxen maned bays. I can tag you if you can't find it . 

This is the aforementioned Grahlshuter


----------



## Mrs B (20 October 2017)

Although I understand why exact descriptions maybe necessary for breeding or (possibly) showing, to me they will always simply be black, bay, brown, chestnut, grey, dun, roan, skewbald, piebald or spotted. 

Other than the above exceptions, why do people worry? The horse doesn't care ...


----------



## ester (20 October 2017)

The main reason is for health, quite a lot of colours/patterns are associated with health problems, so it helps both owner and breeders to know what any associated risks might be. 
So grey (and on double dilutes) - melanoma
LPLP congenital night blindness
LWO - foals with not functioning gut 
Splash white- deafness. 

I also don't think it is ok to make your horse sound like it is 'rare' to sell it for more money, telling the buyer they are going to stand out on a roan TB for ROR showing when actually it is just a bay 3yo going grey seems pretty unethical to me! 

And well, some of us just like things to be factual, it isn't a worry per se, just interesting how and why some phenotypes happen.


----------



## Hoof_Prints (20 October 2017)

ester said:



			The main reason is for health, quite a lot of colours/patterns are associated with health problems, so it helps both owner and breeders to know what any associated risks might be. 
So grey (and on double dilutes) - melanoma
LPLP congenital night blindness
LWO - foals with not functioning gut 
Splash white- deafness. 

I also don't think it is ok to make your horse sound like it is 'rare' to sell it for more money, telling the buyer they are going to stand out on a roan TB for ROR showing when actually it is just a bay 3yo going grey seems pretty unethical to me! 

And well, some of us just like things to be factual, it isn't a worry per se, just interesting how and why some phenotypes happen.
		
Click to expand...

Well said, people are sticking a premium price on the "Silver Duns" as buckskins are more expensive to buy, so that is what was annoying me mostly! On a colour genetics fb page, a person was concerned about the colour of their foal. They'd bred to a "Silver Dun" stallion, and therefore expected the chance of a dilute, the foal was born palomino and is now greying out, the owner definitely didn't want a grey (specifically due to the chance of melanoma).


----------



## ihatework (20 October 2017)

Hoof_Prints said:



			The amount of times people call buckskins duns, it becomes more effort than it's worth to explain it ! Because they often still disagree after anyway  so I've found
		
Click to expand...

I've taken to doing it deliberately now (calling buckskins, dun) - just because I find the reactions amusing! I'm a bit sad like that. Plus for me they have always been dun (even though I appreciate the generically aren't), I link buckskin with americanisms, and I generally dislike those!


----------



## Sparemare (20 October 2017)

Interesting thread.  those who have a passport that documents for example a bay mare,  who in later years turns grey,  can the passport be updated to reflect the new colour?  Or is the mare always described as bay?


----------



## Mrs B (20 October 2017)

ester said:



			The main reason is for health, quite a lot of colours/patterns are associated with health problems, so it helps both owner and breeders to know what any associated risks might be. 
So grey (and on double dilutes) - melanoma
LPLP congenital night blindness
LWO - foals with not functioning gut 
Splash white- deafness. 

I also don't think it is ok to make your horse sound like it is 'rare' to sell it for more money, telling the buyer they are going to stand out on a roan TB for ROR showing when actually it is just a bay 3yo going grey seems pretty unethical to me! 

And well, some of us just like things to be factual, it isn't a worry per se, just interesting how and why some phenotypes happen.
		
Click to expand...

So, to clarify, it's mostly to rule out health problems (although rare over the whole horse population, I do understand) and beyond that, it's personal interest.
Fair enough!


----------



## Chinchilla (20 October 2017)

In all fairness most people don't have a clue about the genetics of it. If the horse looks like something, they will call it that something, even if it isn't possible from that sire/dam combination. :/ 
And actually I do think knowing your horse's true colour is quite important because of health implications - something simple like a grey being marketed as a roan when greys are prone to melanomas.... or to avoid having a "skewbald" which is actually LWO then breeding it to another LWO and having a foal born without the lower half of its intestine or something (is that even what happens? Animal genetics just says "intestinal abnormalities" but I swear I read somewhere...  ) . 

Though as the imbecile who bought horse with CSNB without knowing I should probably just shut up now...


----------



## JFTDWS (20 October 2017)

Well I have two grey duns who are just that - ponies which carry both the grey and dun alleles.  They have dorsal stripes and primitive markings, and even when they fully grey out so that those are invisible (which, with F, isn't far off!), they will still, genetically, be dun.  Doesn't make them rare or interesting though - they're highlands - virtually all of them carry the dun gene!


----------



## ester (20 October 2017)

rule out and not generate, 

LWO is a colon issue, they never pass droppings, start colicing and die in a few days. Obviously it is best if they can either be identified for what they are as soon as possible (other white types of foal do exist), or not bred at all. 

To some extent we are 'lucky' over here as we don't have many LWO carrier horses, or splash white, and realistically not as much LP as say the states.


----------



## Hoof_Prints (20 October 2017)

JFTD said:



			Well I have two grey duns who are just that - ponies which carry both the grey and dun alleles.  They have dorsal stripes and primitive markings, and even when they fully grey out so that those are invisible (which, with F, isn't far off!), they will still, genetically, be dun.  Doesn't make them rare or interesting though - they're highlands - virtually all of them carry the dun gene!
		
Click to expand...

Yes , and very pretty I might add. They have the word "grey" in there, and it's correct! I think "silver" implies some shimmery magic version of the creamy buckskin coat that won't fade; it's usually Connies advertised as such.


----------



## JFTDWS (20 October 2017)

Hoof_Prints said:



			Yes , and very pretty I might add. They have the word "grey" in there, and it's correct! I think "silver" implies some shimmery magic version of the creamy buckskin coat that won't fade; it's usually Connies advertised as such.
		
Click to expand...

I do, in principle, agree with you, btw.  So many misdescribed "duns" out there.  I may have lost my... er... marbles... at the BHS textbooks which describe duns as "yellowish in colour and possibly in possession of a dorsal stripe" (I paraphrase slightly but this is the essence).  Nope.   Just no.


Also, thanks, but "pretty filthy" would be a better description right now


----------



## rachk89 (21 October 2017)

Mine is sadly going whiter, annoying as I loved his black mane but ah well. He keeps growing more spots though everywhere although his neck and shoulders are particularly spotty and his face has his 'freckles' as I call them.

He looks like a dun when filthy, maybe the grey dun people just need to give their horses a bath?


----------



## Umbongo (21 October 2017)

I find this happens with some dog and cat owners too. People tell me that their pugahuahua is seal point cappachino....he's a cross breed love, and he's brown.


----------



## poiuytrewq (21 October 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			Im always stunned at how many people just dont know how grey works. They look at me like I'm speaking in tongues when I explain their pretty dapple grey will eventually go white!
		
Click to expand...

Haha! People get surprisingly irritated by this don't they! 
We had a grey and I loved him getting whiter. I've always quite liked pure white greys


----------



## DabDab (21 October 2017)

Sparemare said:



			Interesting thread.  those who have a passport that documents for example a bay mare,  who in later years turns grey,  can the passport be updated to reflect the new colour?  Or is the mare always described as bay?
		
Click to expand...

Well that's the thing I guess - passport colours are frequently inaccurate and/or non complete. I think you would probably have to get a vet out to do a new set of passport paperwork with the correct colour on it, but then where do you stop in terms of writing the description? Because a correct description of the horse you describe would he bay grey, as she is still genetically bay despite a white coat.

One of mine is described in her passport as 'bay roan', but she is genetically neither bay nor roan. But I have zero interest in correcting the passport tbh....and when the breeder who passported her couldn't even be bothered to stop the vet writing 'roan' when they knew she wasn't....


----------



## DabDab (21 October 2017)

Umbongo said:



			I find this happens with some dog and cat owners too. People tell me that their pugahuahua is seal point cappachino....he's a cross breed love, and he's brown.
		
Click to expand...

True


----------



## ester (21 October 2017)

Theres a bay roan TB on the fb auction site.. it is even registered as bay, it might have a slightly funny coloured bum?


----------



## conniegirl (21 October 2017)

Most people don&#8217;t give a toss what the genetics of thier horses colour is, if it looks dun they will call it dun.

Some people are far too AR about colour genetics when the rest of us don&#8217;t really give a damn and are laughing at the colour police, often by deliberately misnaming a colour just to wind them up.

Most people are not going to breed and who cares if that gorgeous gelding is a chocolate dun, a sooty buckskin or a brown! 
People will pay for pretty coloured horses whether you give them pretty names or not


----------



## ester (21 October 2017)

I'm AR about everything   you get used to it   but I try not to mention it unless people ask  .


----------



## Tiddlypom (21 October 2017)

Hehe, Conniegirl, I'm right with you there!

*tootles off to bring the tricolour mare in for her tea*


----------



## Celtic Fringe (21 October 2017)

Ok - so can I get away with now calling Old Cob 'roan' as he has many flecks of white through his coat now? In reality he is just a very old chestnut pony!

Is Young Cob coloured? He is chestnut with a (nearly) flaxen mane and tail and he does have a lovely patch of white under his girth which is not recorded on his passport ........


----------



## ester (21 October 2017)

CF roan is tricky in nomenculture because there is Roan (Rn the gene) and roaning - which can be caused by a few other genes like sabino/rabicano/LP (appy roaning) etc. And then of course there is old age roaning/greying. 

Re the coloured that actually usually depends on registry/showing society. He will certainly have a gene causing the white, but they aren't all identified yet.


----------



## DabDab (21 October 2017)

conniegirl said:



			Most people dont give a toss what the genetics of thier horses colour is, if it looks dun they will call it dun.

Some people are far too AR about colour genetics when the rest of us dont really give a damn and are laughing at the colour police, often by deliberately misnaming a colour just to wind them up.

Most people are not going to breed and who cares if that gorgeous gelding is a chocolate dun, a sooty buckskin or a brown! 
People will pay for pretty coloured horses whether you give them pretty names or not
		
Click to expand...

Well yes, and sellers wouldn't describe horses as something they're not if their weren't buyers around who are stupid enough to pay extra money for it


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (21 October 2017)

My grey TB is registered as rose grey/roan. Bloomin Americans! 

My darty is also registered as rose bay. 

Colours do fascinate me when they are not obvious. The Wee Coloured Job is skewbald. His father is a dun coloured skewbald, his dam dun. Or whatever version of dun/buckskin etc that you want to call it. But he is a proper chestnut and white. What he can produce in future I don't know so I may get him gene tested or I may just like the surprise!


----------



## ester (21 October 2017)

rose bay is a new one on me! 

With that parentage TWCJ will be ee N/TO (chestnut, one copy of tobiano, no dun).


----------



## NiceNeverNaughty (21 October 2017)

mine is most definitely grey dun!


----------



## Hoof_Prints (21 October 2017)

conniegirl said:



			People will pay for pretty coloured horses whether you give them pretty names or not
		
Click to expand...

Well, not necessarily, if the horse is in fact going to end up white and that is something they want to avoid, then they should know the outcome. It can only be a good thing to have the facts out there, rather than just carry on being misinformed or ignorant to them  No problem with people who don't give a toss about it, some might want to if they knew a bit more


----------



## Celtic Fringe (21 October 2017)

ester said:



			CF roan is tricky in nomenculture because there is Roan (Rn the gene) and roaning - which can be caused by a few other genes like sabino/rabicano/LP (appy roaning) etc. And then of course there is old age roaning/greying. 

Re the coloured that actually usually depends on registry/showing society. He will certainly have a gene causing the white, but they aren't all identified yet.
		
Click to expand...

I was being rather tongue in cheek! It is interesting though - Young Cob was out of a bay mare and by a cream and yellow stallion of indeterminate breeding (I bought Young Cob as a 3 year old - I didn't breed him!). The stallion seems to produce mostly chestnut offspring from the photos I've seen.
Young cob's dam was out of a bay mare and by a chestnut stallion. 
His white patch is only about 10cm across so not really visible, he also has some white hairs scattered through his coat, paler mane, tail and feathers and white hooves. He is 25% Irish Draught but the rest is an interesting and unknown mix! He doesn't fit easily into any category for showing but is coming on leaps and bounds with his flatwork.


----------



## ester (21 October 2017)

no smileys , you'll get the non tongue in cheek AR response


----------



## Celtic Fringe (21 October 2017)

ester said:



			no smileys , you'll get the non tongue in cheek AR response 

Click to expand...

Fair enough! Just found out how to change settings so I can add then now 
Might even attempt some pics within the next 100 years


----------



## DabDab (21 October 2017)

Hoof_Prints said:



			Well, not necessarily, if the horse is in fact going to end up white and that is something they want to avoid, then they should know the outcome. It can only be a good thing to have the facts out there, rather than just carry on being misinformed or ignorant to them  No problem with people who don't give a toss about it, some might want to if they knew a bit more 

Click to expand...

Indeed - I never understand the 'who cares' argument when it comes to the description for purposes of sale. It's as dishonest in my book as passing one breed off as another when selling


----------



## conniegirl (22 October 2017)

DabDab said:



			Indeed - I never understand the 'who cares' argument when it comes to the description for purposes of sale. It's as dishonest in my book as passing one breed off as another when selling
		
Click to expand...

Because a horse isn&#8217;t going to suddenly change colour if you call it a dun when it&#8217;s a buckskin. 
The only one that may do so is a grey but then again, some greys don&#8217;t go completely white, I know a rose grey mare who whilst she has lightened a bit over the last 10 years, aged 14 she is still a pretty rose grey (and yes i do know the difference between that and a roan).
If they are foolish enough to not realise a grey may go white then they are probably not going to be interested in genetics anyway!
Also it is a very visible trait to if people actually cared what genetic colour thier horse was then it is there for them to see.

I certainly didn&#8217;t set out to buy a pretty colour when I bought my chocolate dun (sorry sooty buckskin) Connemara. I set out to buy a decent native pony who would do well in the show ring, be good to hack out, a lovely person to have around and who could tach me to truely ride a horse - non of that changed because someone decided to be AR about his colour!


----------



## DabDab (22 October 2017)

Ok, so there's a lot you've said there.

Buckskin/dun is basically semantics the way most people use it, so it depends how much that bothers you.

Greys that don't white out are very much a rarity and there's no way to know when selling a young horse.

Yes, people are idiots, that's why we have laws regarding selling and misdescription. I'm irritated by 'silver dun' when it's grey about as much as I am by a black cob being described as 'Frisian x' to help it sell better to an idiot for more money. It's just unethical in my book, and I'm terribly sorry if you find that AR.

Chocolate dun is way too exotic for my upbringing, so I'm afraid your Connie would just be brown in my book


----------



## conniegirl (22 October 2017)

DabDab said:



			Ok, so there's a lot you've said there.

Buckskin/dun is basically semantics the way most people use it, so it depends how much that bothers you.

Greys that don't white out are very much a rarity and there's no way to know when selling a young horse.

Yes, people are idiots, that's why we have laws regarding selling and misdescription. I'm irritated by 'silver dun' when it's grey about as much as I am by a black cob being described as 'Frisian x' to help it sell better to an idiot for more money. It's just unethical in my book, and I'm terribly sorry if you find that AR.

Chocolate dun is way too exotic for my upbringing, so I'm afraid your Connie would just be brown in my book 

Click to expand...

he was very darkbrown on top and it faded to a bright yellow belly.
Did get called a bay a few times by some judges but meh


----------



## conniegirl (22 October 2017)

conniegirl said:



			he was very darkbrown on top and it faded to a bright yellow belly.
Did get called a bay a few times by some judges but meh





Click to expand...

Sorry trying to get the photo to work


----------



## Leo Walker (22 October 2017)

DabDab said:



			Greys that don't white out are very much a rarity and there's no way to know when selling a young horse.
		
Click to expand...

They all go white. Just some take longer than other. And no, people dont always know that, especially if they are presented with something that visually appears roan for example and they are told thats what it is.



conniegirl said:



			he was very darkbrown on top and it faded to a bright yellow belly.
Did get called a bay a few times by some judges but meh





Click to expand...

There is a good chance he is bay. People cant seem to tell the difference between bay with panagre and dun/buckskin. I see an awful lot of genetically bay horses advertised as chocolate duns and all sorts of nonsense. 

To get the Facebook photo to work you have to click on it to enlarge it, then right click and select copy image address.


----------



## DabDab (22 October 2017)

Yes LW, I was talking in reference to a mid teens horse that still has some element of colour to it as per CG's anecdote. I have come across one like this too, and have also come across a few that became heavily fleabitten almost immediately upon becoming white. And as for people not knowing - that's sort of the point I was making...?

ETA: hoping pic works CG, love a smart Connie


----------



## Hoof_Prints (22 October 2017)

conniegirl said:



			If they are foolish enough to not realise a grey may go white then they are probably not going to be interested in genetics anyway!
Also it is a very visible trait to if people actually cared what genetic colour thier horse was then it is there for them to see.

I certainly didnt set out to buy a pretty colour when I bought my chocolate dun (sorry sooty buckskin) Connemara. I set out to buy a decent native pony who would do well in the show ring, be good to hack out, a lovely person to have around and who could tach me to truely ride a horse - non of that changed because someone decided to be AR about his colour!
		
Click to expand...

Just because someone doesn't know something, it doesn't make them foolish. It's good to raise the point and make someone aware, who would have otherwise not known any different.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (22 October 2017)

Surely it's less annoying when someone is 'AR' about colour (as it has been delightfully put) and they are correct, then when they are 'AR' and they are wrong? I was quite aggressively told that my chestnut/grey youngster was a strawberry roan several times by different people. Now please bear in mind that I have never corrected anyone about their horse's colour IRL, so it wasn't to get back at me over anything. Unsurprisingly I didn't get one single apology when she greyed out, although the people did start calling her grey then.

I can think of a few times when people on here have been delighted when they have put up photos of their horses and found that they are an unusual colour. EG the 'washed out chestnut' that was actually a Red Dun.

I dabble in the model horse hobby and they are really good at horse colours. Accuracy is key there as if you are commissioning an artist to paint your very expensive artist resin, you don't want any communication errors resulting in the wrong colour being painted. Also as people want to have sculptures that are of a specific breed painted in a colour that is possible for that breed, they are very good at knowing what genes each breed has. So Cream and Dun are definitely very separate things. I have tried to explain why people in the UK often call buckskin 'dun' and I am often met with such confusion over why people resist being accurate and aren't updating the terms that they use. 

I have to say, I find it refreshing when the model horse people talk about colour. There's no bickering, people show photos of unusual colours and no-one is called AR for being accurate. If you get something wrong, you aren't made to feel bad. It's definitely less bitchy than the real horse world, which is such a shame. 

Over the years I have been made to feel so bad by some real horse people. The breed I love is the 'wrong' breed. I have a chestnut mare, which apparently means that I will be told how awful chestnut mares are regularly. If I'm interested in colour, then I'm anally retentive. If I'm interested in barefoot, then I'm a member of the 'barefoot taliban'. I use some black tack, that's bad too apparently.

Why can't we be kinder to each other? It completely perplexes me. 

I still think that colour should be accurate in a passport. It is meant to identify a specific horse and so it should be accurate or it doesn't do its job (and there are plenty of other reasons that demonstrate why horse passports currently are not fit for purpose). That doesn't make me a monster though.

OK rant over.


----------



## Casey76 (22 October 2017)

Faracat said:



			Surely it's less annoying when someone is 'AR' about colour (as it has been delightfully put) and they are correct, then when they are 'AR' and they are wrong? I was quite aggressively told that my chestnut/grey youngster was a strawberry roan several times by different people. Now please bear in mind that I have never corrected anyone about their horse's colour IRL, so it wasn't to get back at me over anything. Unsurprisingly I didn't get one single apology when she greyed out, although the people did start calling her grey then.

I can think of a few times when people on here have been delighted when they have put up photos of their horses and found that they are an unusual colour. EG the 'washed out chestnut' that was actually a Red Dun.

I dabble in the model horse hobby and they are really good at horse colours. Accuracy is key there as if you are commissioning an artist to paint your very expensive artist resin, you don't want any communication errors resulting in the wrong colour being painted. Also as people want to have sculptures that are of a specific breed painted in a colour that is possible for that breed, they are very good at knowing what genes each breed has. So Cream and Dun are definitely very separate things. I have tried to explain why people in the UK often call buckskin 'dun' and I am often met with such confusion over why people resist being accurate and aren't updating the terms that they use. 

I have to say, I find it refreshing when the model horse people talk about colour. There's no bickering, people show photos of unusual colours and no-one is called AR for being accurate. If you get something wrong, you aren't made to feel bad. It's definitely less bitchy than the real horse world, which is such a shame. 

Over the years I have been made to feel so bad by some real horse people. The breed I love is the 'wrong' breed. I have a chestnut mare, which apparently means that I will be told how awful chestnut mares are regularly. If I'm interested in colour, then I'm anally retentive. If I'm interested in barefoot, then I'm a member of the 'barefoot taliban'. I use some black tack, that's bad too apparently.

Why can't we be kinder to each other? It completely perplexes me. 

I still think that colour should be accurate in a passport. It is meant to identify a specific horse and so it should be accurate or it doesn't do its job (and there are plenty of other reasons that demonstrate why horse passports currently are not fit for purpose). That doesn't make me a monster though.

OK rant over. 

Click to expand...

Need a *like* button


----------



## DabDab (22 October 2017)

Casey76 said:



			Need a *like* button
		
Click to expand...

Yep


----------



## conniegirl (22 October 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			They all go white. Just some take longer than other. And no, people dont always know that, especially if they are presented with something that visually appears roan for example and they are told thats what it is.



There is a good chance he is bay. People cant seem to tell the difference between bay with panagre and dun/buckskin. I see an awful lot of genetically bay horses advertised as chocolate duns and all sorts of nonsense. 

To get the Facebook photo to work you have to click on it to enlarge it, then right click and select copy image address.
		
Click to expand...

Im on my phone and ipad only at the moment so really struggling. 2 mins work on a laptop is so much harder on the ipad

It was someone very AR about colour genetics who told me (infact tried to beat me over the head with the fact which is half the reason im so negative about the whole thing) that he was a sooty buckskin, not a cocolate dun!


----------



## Leo Walker (22 October 2017)

On an ipad you hold and select _open in new tab_ then copy the information in the address bar and paste it between img tags.

I'm sure by AR you meant knowledgeable or interested didnt you? Because otherwise you are being needlessly unpleasant, having had it pointed out several times now why people would find that rude and/or unpleasant.


----------



## conniegirl (22 October 2017)

For that woman AR was right, could have also been called a colour genetics Nazi! The woman was demented and thats putting it nicely, knowledgable maybe but beating people over the head with it then stalking thier every post whether relative or not, private messaging me constantly despite being told not to and then following me to other forums after i left that one to get away from her is havig a screw loose!


----------



## JFTDWS (22 October 2017)

I'm not sure "Nazi" is remotely defensible.  She does sound unpleasant and somewhat like she may have some issues though.


----------



## conniegirl (22 October 2017)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?....832020457781.2406380.61006445&type=3&theater

Last attempt, if this doesn&#8217;t work then it will have to wait for me to get home to my laptop

ETA doesn&#8217;t work as an img code so going to leave the link which hopefully will work


----------



## Leo Walker (22 October 2017)

It should look like this:

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=c5fe215cfa227bf04daaa9d5307dc51d&oe=5A83E06E

What you've posted is a link to the page, but you need to set the photo to public to make that work. You have to click on the photo and get that to open in a new tab, before copying that address bar information. You cant just copy the address bar info for the page its on.


----------



## rabatsa (22 October 2017)

conniegirl said:



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?....832020457781.2406380.61006445&type=3&theater

Last attempt, if this doesn&#8217;t work then it will have to wait for me to get home to my laptop

ETA doesn&#8217;t work as an img code so going to leave the link which hopefully will work
		
Click to expand...

The link takes me to facebook but the content is not available.  Is the picture public or restricted to friends?


----------



## conniegirl (22 October 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			It should look like this:

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=c5fe215cfa227bf04daaa9d5307dc51d&oe=5A83E06E

What you've posted is a link to the page, but you need to set the photo to public to make that work. You have to click on the photo and get that to open in a new tab, before copying that address bar information. You cant just copy the address bar info for the page its on.
		
Click to expand...

Thats exactly what Ive tried to do and the above is the only address I can get for it.
It will just have to wait untill Tuesday when I get my laptop back


----------



## conniegirl (22 October 2017)

Right, does this link work.
Can&#8217;t get the img thing to work at all nor can I get to the photo on its own page as described above but I did find this link and according to Facebook it allows anyone with the link to view the photo?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=832036859911&l=591e63a7df


----------



## crabbymare (22 October 2017)

conniegirl said:



			Right, does this link work.
Cant get the img thing to work at all nor can I get to the photo on its own page as described above but I did find this link and according to Facebook it allows anyone with the link to view the photo?
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Wheels (22 October 2017)

Looks sooty bay to me 

Could be a very dark sooty buckskin but he's certainly not chocolate dun


----------



## conniegirl (22 October 2017)

Wheels said:



			Looks sooty bay to me 

Could be a very dark sooty buckskin but he's certainly not chocolate dun
		
Click to expand...

He was chocolate dun on his passport because untill very recently connemara society did not accept buckskin as a colour. Connies don&#8217;t however carry the dun gene, so no he technically can&#8217;t be chocolate dun, but does it really matter what he was called? Misnaming his colour does not impact on his care, health, schooling, ability to be a brilliant all rounder, ability to take me up through dressage levels etc.

 I had photos on photo bucket That showed his very yellow belly very clearly, but photobucket has died.
I only have about 3 photos of him on Facebook, 1 is the above, one is him lieing down and another is of him in his thick winter coat with a rug on.

His sire was down as black his dam is dark eyed cream. His 3 full siblings are bay, &#8220;dun&#8221; (more likely buckskin) and grey according to the IHR
Work that one out!


----------



## Wagtail (22 October 2017)

Looks like sooty buckskin


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (22 October 2017)

Here is my late Connie cross girl she was Connie cross Anglo Arab what a sweet girl she was.  She was sold has dun and had dorsal stripe but no leg bars.


----------



## ester (23 October 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			They all go white. Just some take longer than other. And no, people dont always know that, especially if they are presented with something that visually appears roan for example and they are told thats what it is.
		
Click to expand...

unless your comico, or one of the connie line that seems they will die before being white 

Faracat it is interesting what you say about the model horse people, because actually I have been really surprised at their lack of knowledge, but of the worst kind in that they really think they are right... Trying to have a conversation the other day that depigmentation of the muzzle could occur with LP the other day, with examples and got nowhere!


----------



## DabDab (23 October 2017)

conniegirl said:



			He was chocolate dun on his passport because untill very recently connemara society did not accept buckskin as a colour. Connies don&#8217;t however carry the dun gene, so no he technically can&#8217;t be chocolate dun, but does it really matter what he was called? Misnaming his colour does not impact on his care, health, schooling, ability to be a brilliant all rounder, ability to take me up through dressage levels etc.

 I had photos on photo bucket That showed his very yellow belly very clearly, but photobucket has died.
I only have about 3 photos of him on Facebook, 1 is the above, one is him lieing down and another is of him in his thick winter coat with a rug on.

His sire was down as black his dam is dark eyed cream. His 3 full siblings are bay, &#8220;dun&#8221; (more likely buckskin) and grey according to the IHR
Work that one out!
		
Click to expand...

He's certainly a very smart beastie, and his colour is very pretty - really highlights his good conformation actually, much more so than if he was a fully bleached out grey for example.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (23 October 2017)

Ester- How frustrating. 

Was it a FB group? I'm not on FB, so I have no experience of what the FB model horse groups are like. I know that the lady who set up the WhiteHorseProductions site (and the horse colour pages on it) is a model horse person and she is currently updating that to fit with the current understanding. So she's definitely open to reviewing things as 'we' understand more. The people on the forum I go on seem pretty open minded and willing to learn.

I was reading a thread the other day, where someone wanted a possible breed (or cross of breeds) for this model.







They were given a few suggestions and someone said what they had shown him as (and he did well) so it was all very amicable. Maybe not the deep scientific discussion you are after, but a sort of kind and functional discussion.


----------



## Chinchilla (23 October 2017)

Faracat said:



			Surely it's less annoying when someone is 'AR' about colour (as it has been delightfully put) and they are correct, then when they are 'AR' and they are wrong? I was quite aggressively told that my chestnut/grey youngster was a strawberry roan several times by different people. Now please bear in mind that I have never corrected anyone about their horse's colour IRL, so it wasn't to get back at me over anything. Unsurprisingly I didn't get one single apology when she greyed out, although the people did start calling her grey then.

I can think of a few times when people on here have been delighted when they have put up photos of their horses and found that they are an unusual colour. EG the 'washed out chestnut' that was actually a Red Dun.

I dabble in the model horse hobby and they are really good at horse colours. Accuracy is key there as if you are commissioning an artist to paint your very expensive artist resin, you don't want any communication errors resulting in the wrong colour being painted. Also as people want to have sculptures that are of a specific breed painted in a colour that is possible for that breed, they are very good at knowing what genes each breed has. So Cream and Dun are definitely very separate things. I have tried to explain why people in the UK often call buckskin 'dun' and I am often met with such confusion over why people resist being accurate and aren't updating the terms that they use. 

I have to say, I find it refreshing when the model horse people talk about colour. There's no bickering, people show photos of unusual colours and no-one is called AR for being accurate. If you get something wrong, you aren't made to feel bad. It's definitely less bitchy than the real horse world, which is such a shame. 

Over the years I have been made to feel so bad by some real horse people. The breed I love is the 'wrong' breed. I have a chestnut mare, which apparently means that I will be told how awful chestnut mares are regularly. If I'm interested in colour, then I'm anally retentive. If I'm interested in barefoot, then I'm a member of the 'barefoot taliban'. I use some black tack, that's bad too apparently.

Why can't we be kinder to each other? It completely perplexes me. 

I still think that colour should be accurate in a passport. It is meant to identify a specific horse and so it should be accurate or it doesn't do its job (and there are plenty of other reasons that demonstrate why horse passports currently are not fit for purpose). That doesn't make me a monster though.

OK rant over. 

Click to expand...

Never mind a "like" button, we need a "love" or "favourite" button for posts like this. The facebook keyboard horse trainer brigade I've found are always the worst - the ones who apparently know more about your horse than you do from a single photograph  I do think accuracy with colour (on passports or owner's descriptions etc. in case pony is ever stolen or gets lost) can actually help safe guard equine welfare as well: there's a big difference between a grey and roan and that difference could be the one that decides whether a distraught owner gets their friend back or not in the case of horse theft, for example.


----------



## ester (23 October 2017)

yup FB , 

I'm certainly not their for scientific discussion, I'm on the other groups for that but am surprised at a lot of the responses to stuff, particularly if you suggest something different to their thinking. They just don't seem to manage the logic of 'it cannot be XYZ because of ABC' and just keep repeating the same thing! Re breed suggestions pointing out that something looked very much like it was very obviously intended to be RN roan (a heavy) not just sabino type so they were going to have to stick an ardennes or similar in it's cross was not met with much acceptance .

The case I referred to was a set of pictures someone had put on a rescue page of a young LP (poss had grey too was hard to tell) hatrack and them riding it a few years later, the picture of health and very white (but with obviously LP indicators so essentially fewspot). Because it had acquired white on it's muzzle most people agreed that it couldn't possibly be the same horse, I felt quite sorry for the person who had rescued the horse that people didn't believe in her hard work!


----------



## DabDab (23 October 2017)

On the subject of passports - I'm not sure how easy it would be. I mean how far would you go? Would my bay horse just be described as bay or as 'black, agouti, sabino' as those are all the colour genes he has that are visible. If the latter then there are certain foals that would have a fair old genetic testing bill to pay before they could be passported.


----------



## Chinchilla (23 October 2017)

DabDab said:



			On the subject of passports - I'm not sure how easy it would be. I mean how far would you go? Would my bay horse just be described as bay or as 'black, agouti, sabino' as those are all the colour genes he has that are visible. If the latter then there are certain foals that would have a fair old genetic testing bill to pay before they could be passported.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think it's about listing the genes it carries. I think it's about listing the traits it displays in a way which is accurate, but understandable. So we had a chestnut flaxen roan with splash white, and that's what should have been written on her passport. Names for colours can vary place to place but the names of genes are pretty constant; rabicano and roan often get mixed up for example. But again going back to the horse theft example, looking for a bay rabicano instead of a bay roan would make finding it much easier. I mean if Diva got horsenapped for some reason I wouldn't say she's a homozygous appaloosa with two copies of both Lp and PATN1 because that wouldn't help find her, necessarily. But saying she has shell covered hooves and freckles and hates the dark, which are homozygous appaloosa _traits_ , might. And with your bay sabino...there's lots of bay horses and lots of horses with random white bits but different genes add white is different ways, with W20 or splash white or whatever. So saying it's a bay with sabino might make all the difference because it's about being able to identify the animal. 

That said I don't think passports really count for much. Yes they are a legal requirement but with every horse passported to a separate organisation it isn't policeable in the slightest, regardless of how the horse is actually described, in my opinion.


----------



## DabDab (23 October 2017)

Well I'm not sure the main purpose would be for if they got lost - if I lost my horse I would put out a picture and the microchip number, not the passport. 

And the thing is that those aren't Appaloosa traits, they're Lp traits. There are Appaloosas without Lp and there are also non-appaloosas with Lp.


----------



## Chinchilla (23 October 2017)

DabDab said:



			Well I'm not sure the main purpose would be for if they got lost - if I lost my horse I would put out a picture and the microchip number, not the passport. 

And the thing is that those aren't Appaloosa traits, they're Lp traits. There are Appaloosas without Lp and there are also non-appaloosas with Lp.
		
Click to expand...

Oh I meant what I ignorantly call "appaloosa gene" traits. as in Lp patn1 or patn2. not the breed, Sorry  (She isn't an actually appaloosa horse so far as i'm aware?).

Half the words i use to describe genes are incorrect tbh  ¯\_(&#12484_/¯


----------



## Leo Walker (23 October 2017)

The FB model horse groups are awful! Well the UK ones anyway. They are run by a handful of old bats who are ALWAYS right even when they are clearly wrong!


----------



## DabDab (23 October 2017)

Diva&Rosie'sMum said:



			Oh I meant what I ignorantly call "appaloosa gene" traits. as in Lp patn1 or patn2. not the breed, Sorry  (She isn't an actually appaloosa horse so far as i'm aware?).

Half the words i use to describe genes are incorrect tbh  ¯\_(&#12484_/¯
		
Click to expand...

Yes, sorry, didn't 'complete the thought' when replying - what I mean is that if you take your example, surely the only logical conclusion is that you have to list the actual genetics if you go down the 'colour must be correct on passport' route. Writing Appaloosa on the passport of, say, a knabstrupper is as misleading as writing Dun on a Connemara's passport (potentially even more so as at least with a 'cream dun' Connie people know exactly what you're on about). 

The only way to separate semantics from science is to list the genes.


----------



## ester (23 October 2017)

I don't see why you would need to call a bay a black agouti, that wouldn't be accurate anyway, given that agouti isn't something they have or don't. 
I think for most phenotypes it is perfectly possible to write their phenotypes in a manner that is genetically still representative, which is important given that there are lots of genes we still haven't identified. Anything spotty can be a bit random in expression at times so listing the genes won't necessarily tell you what it looks like still, where as if someone called it a few spot most people would know what that looked like.


----------



## conniegirl (23 October 2017)

Diva&Rosie'sMum said:



			I don't think it's about listing the genes it carries. I think it's about listing the traits it displays in a way which is accurate, but understandable. So we had a chestnut flaxen roan with splash white, and that's what should have been written on her passport. Names for colours can vary place to place but the names of genes are pretty constant; rabicano and roan often get mixed up for example. But again going back to the horse theft example, looking for a bay rabicano instead of a bay roan would make finding it much easier. I mean if Diva got horsenapped for some reason I wouldn't say she's a homozygous appaloosa with two copies of both Lp and PATN1 because that wouldn't help find her, necessarily. But saying she has shell covered hooves and freckles and hates the dark, which are homozygous appaloosa _traits_ , might. And with your bay sabino...there's lots of bay horses and lots of horses with random white bits but different genes add white is different ways, with W20 or splash white or whatever. So saying it's a bay with sabino might make all the difference because it's about being able to identify the animal. 

That said I don't think passports really count for much. Yes they are a legal requirement but with every horse passported to a separate organisation it isn't policeable in the slightest, regardless of how the horse is actually described, in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Actually given that the vast majority of the equine world has no idea what rabianco is you would probably have more luck asking the general populace to look for a bay roan.

Just as if Stan (above) had gone missing I&#8217;d have had more luck saying chocolate dun rather than sooty buckskin.

You are asking the general population to keep an eye out for a horse, it works better if you keep it to terms your very basic horse owner would recognise.
So for the few spot,I&#8217;d probably describe her as white with freckles in order to trigger people&#8217;s thought process. If you said few spot people would be expecting a blanket apply with only a few spots on her blanket


----------



## DabDab (23 October 2017)

ester said:



			I don't see why you would need to call a bay a black agouti, that wouldn't be accurate anyway, given that agouti isn't something they have or don't. 
I think for most phenotypes it is perfectly possible to write their phenotypes in a manner that is genetically still representative, which is important given that there are lots of genes we still haven't identified. Anything spotty can be a bit random in expression at times so listing the genes won't necessarily tell you what it looks like still, where as if someone called it a few spot most people would know what that looked like.
		
Click to expand...

I'll have to politely disagree. 
If people are insisting on accuracy then it has to be accurate. Otherwise I'm not really bothered - I can see in front of me what colour the horse looks, I don't need the 'correct' English term to be on the passport.

ETA: if you ever have cause to look into pet rabbits you will find that 'Agouti' is exactly how the applicable coat colour is described.


----------



## ester (23 October 2017)

but black agouti isn't accurate?

What do you do about genetic effects that have not yet been identified?

Surely the whole point of a passport (given the other thread on that ATM) is to be able to match it to the horse in front of you, if the known genetics doesn't do that how does it serve that purpose?


----------



## DabDab (23 October 2017)

But that's my point - I don't think a system of 'correct' passport descriptions is possible right now, so we are stuck with colloquial descriptions on passports.

The rabbit people may not be entirely accurate by calling a colour 'agouti', but they're closer than horse people are with 'bay'


----------



## Hoof_Prints (23 October 2017)

I don't think passports need to go in to the fine details, providing the basic information given is correct.  I.e. a bay horse can have subcategories of different genetic bay  but the horse is still bay. In comparison, a flaxen  chestnut is not palomino or a dun is not buckskin. On my phone so I've just typed that quickly and it might not make much sense!


----------



## SEL (23 October 2017)

Diva&Rosie'sMum said:



			Oh I meant what I ignorantly call "appaloosa gene" traits. as in Lp patn1 or patn2. not the breed, Sorry  (She isn't an actually appaloosa horse so far as i'm aware?).

Half the words i use to describe genes are incorrect tbh  ¯\_(&#12484_/¯
		
Click to expand...

Made me smile. My 'also not a real appaloosa' has her colouring on her passport as 'appaloosa markings'. Doesn't really narrow it down much does it? Could be anything from barely spotted to loudly leopard coloured.

Apparently she's a bay roan snowcap - who also can't see in the dark (& getting whiter by the year given this photo is 12 months old and now her face is more white than pink!)


----------



## DabDab (23 October 2017)

Hoof_Prints said:



			I don't think passports need to go in to the fine details, providing the basic information given is correct.  I.e. a bay horse can have subcategories of different genetic bay  but the horse is still bay. In comparison, a flaxen  chestnut is not palomino or a dun is not buckskin. On my phone so I've just typed that quickly and it might not make much sense!
		
Click to expand...

But (sorry, I will go away soon and stop banging on ), so imagine all vets are instructed to put the 'correct' colour on the passport. Who's version of 'correct' term? What about for the horses that have a non describable colour?

I think starting to come up with more and more colloquial terms for certain combinations of horse colour genetics I think is what a)encourages unscrupulous types to invent nonsense like "silver dun" and b)encourages the ordinary buyer to think that maybe this is an interesting new colour definition rather than seeing it for the nonsense that it is.


----------



## Chinchilla (23 October 2017)

DabDab said:



			But (sorry, I will go away soon and stop banging on ), so imagine all vets are instructed to put the 'correct' colour on the passport. Who's version of 'correct' term? What about for the horses that have a non describable colour?

I think starting to come up with more and more colloquial terms for certain combinations of horse colour genetics I think is what a)encourages unscrupulous types to invent nonsense like "silver dun" and b)encourages the ordinary buyer to think that maybe this is an interesting new colour definition rather than seeing it for the nonsense that it is.
		
Click to expand...

_This _ is why there needs to be better education on the genetics.... at least for vets or passport people or breed societies. Lots of colours are the same thing just with different names; if people could say, yes well, that "tricolour" is actually just another name for a bay tobiano, it would be fine, but people don't recognise that that's what it is. Which is where, I think, problems arise, and you get all sorts of "fancy new colours" which are actually just different names for pre existing colours.


----------

