# Anyone had experience of ET?



## cyberhorse (16 February 2018)

Just looking for anyone who has gone the ET route. Our vets are now offering the service as one of their packages. This year I will have to semi-retire my SJ (gelding sadly) with a check injury. Hence I now really don't want to put my young mare who's currently being backed in foal until her first youngster is ready for backing. So how much is involved and what success have you had? It's that or we sell my husband's gelding for another nice quality young mare.


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## Laafet (16 February 2018)

I was working in a stud for the last two years who did a lot of ET, it was massively expensive and unless your vet is a specialist then I wouldn't bother and even those that are have made mistakes with our mares. It basically costs about 10k and we were annoyed that despite asking for experienced roomy mares we got a 15.2hh maiden and a TB type maiden, the foals out of these sorts of mares were definitely of the same quality as those out of more experienced mares, despite being out of the same donor mare.


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## sport horse (16 February 2018)

I have had about 6 or 7 attempts at ET. Actually transferred one live embryo but that dies in recipient mare one week after transfer. I was working with mares that had competed at International level and it cost thousands of pounds to no avail. Not only vets fees but cost of stud fees as well. In my opinion only worth it with top class proven stock.


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## TheMule (16 February 2018)

You need an excellent vet who is doing embryo transfers every day of the week to succeed. I've done it twice by sending my mares off to a stud with an exceptional repro vet. It worked first time both times and the extra veterinary work was only roughly 1k. The bills will add up if you use an inexperienced vet, it's really not worth it!


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## sallyf (16 February 2018)

We have done several for ourselves and other people.
My 4th of my own is due in April and we have inseminated flushed 4 times for 4 pregnancies but I believe one of the really crucial things is the quality of the recipient mare.
I have personally used maiden and experienced mares but they are all mares I have bred and are part of my breeding program so know that are reproductively very sound.
We have also done several for other people and helped source recipient mares for them to use.
On the odd occasion the transferred pregnancy has failed it has been down to the poor recipient that I have been given to use that was selected by someone else.
I haven't found the process expensive buts that's because I have stacked the odds in our favour by using stallions with excellent fertility (frozen semen hasn't altered success rates) and donor/recipient mares that are fertile and in good shape.
We foal and have had some pretty awful recipient mares to foal from other places that are to my mind completely unsuitable.
The success is in the detail and cutting any corner will make the whole exercise into an expensive one


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## alainax (16 February 2018)

Admits to clicking on thread to see if it was about aliens.


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## Alec Swan (16 February 2018)

sallyf said:



			..
We foal and have had some pretty awful recipient mares to foal from other places that are to my mind completely unsuitable.
The success is in the detail and cutting any corner will make the whole exercise into an expensive one
		
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I seem to remember being shot at for suggesting that 'Van-type' Cob mares (or was it a Cart-horse mare?) would be viewed as being unsuitable for a dressage bred ET attempt and from a mare of the leading tier! :wink3::rolleyes3:

Embryo Transfer?  It's a huge 'con',  in that the chances of success from the viewpoint of replicating the donor mare,  are so slim as to not be worth the risk.  The entire concept has been built on the belief that our leading mare will be at the head of a dynasty .. and it's gravely flawed theory.  The experiment hasn't worked - by now it must be that obvious.

I've been banging on now,  admittedly to the annoyance of others and for the last 10 years or so and arguing the point that the recipient mare has probably more influence over the foal than its generic mother.  It's interesting to note that the leading ET centres are slowly and perhaps painfully so,  coming to accept my argument.

There are no shortcuts to success,  be that having a live foal delivered by ET OR having a foal which succeeds.  There's a previous HHOer on here who worked on one of the major German studs where jumping is their game .. she assures me that the first foals to be sold are always those which are born by ET .. what should that tell us?

Embryo Transfer isn't difficult and for those who fancy trying it then Groomsbridge Stud will provide a service to you which is second to none .. and I mean *'second-to-none'*.  

My doubts surround our aspirations and what we're hoping to achieve.  Embryo Transfer is not the way forward,  if it were then we'd be seeing the results coming forward by now,  wouldn't we?  We'd be seeing the foals of those fillies which are heading for stardom and their foals now being mature .. where are they?

ET is a bit of fun . it isn't a short-cut to success.

Alec.


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## cyberhorse (18 February 2018)

Interesting... Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences! Given it has just started to be advertised along with the usual services it provoked a bit of debate. I had wondered how it had been working out for those who had gone down that line and what had been produced. 

The instance we were pondering was for those who have an excellent mare currently out competing. I have seen opinions in Dutch breeding articles where they state a mare has to be a career broodmare and their best foals will be produced between the ages of 6-10yrs. In the UK many have strong opinions that the mare has to thoroughly prove herself in sport prior to being bred. We had quite a big discussion on this point, but many of those with good upcoming mares have said if they became very successful they would not permit a career break nor risk them until much older, (although in reality it would be unlikely they would still own them!). My theoretical pondering was where we are actually with ET in horses at the moment. And whether the science could at some point in future permit harvesting, AI & storage and then implantation to a recipient or the even mare herself at a later date. From what you have said Alec irrespective of the high costs it would seem it would be no benefit or advantage, and not a way round such a conundrum.

So following from this if purchasing youngstock would anyone expect to pay the same given the genetic breeding or less as it is an ET? (sorry alainax the real ET went home in 1982...)


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## sallyf (18 February 2018)

cyberhorse said:



			Interesting... Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences! Given it has just started to be advertised along with the usual services it provoked a bit of debate. I had wondered how it had been working out for those who had gone down that line and what had been produced. 

The instance we were pondering was for those who have an excellent mare currently out competing. I have seen opinions in Dutch breeding articles where they state a mare has to be a career broodmare and their best foals will be produced between the ages of 6-10yrs. In the UK many have strong opinions that the mare has to thoroughly prove herself in sport prior to being bred. We had quite a big discussion on this point, but many of those with good upcoming mares have said if they became very successful they would not permit a career break nor risk them until much older, (although in reality it would be unlikely they would still own them!). My theoretical pondering was where we are actually with ET in horses at the moment. And whether the science could at some point in future permit harvesting, AI & storage and then implantation to a recipient or the even mare herself at a later date. From what you have said Alec irrespective of the high costs it would seem it would be no benefit or advantage, and not a way round such a conundrum.

So following from this if purchasing youngstock would anyone expect to pay the same given the genetic breeding or less as it is an ET? (sorry alainax the real ET went home in 1982...)
		
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My ET foals have sold for significant money.
I have been careful to use recipient mares that are related to the donor mares though and to date all have shown very strong characteristics of there biological mothers .
I do think that the recipient is very important and the ones I have used have mostly already produced good competition horses in there own right.


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## popsdosh (18 February 2018)

sallyf said:



			My ET foals have sold for significant money.
I have been careful to use recipient mares that are related to the donor mares though and to date all have shown very strong characteristics of there biological mothers .
I do think that the recipient is very important and the ones I have used have mostly already produced good competition horses in there own right.
		
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Exactly use top class recipient mares as they pass on traits such as steadiness ,manners and boldness.
I would say to OP why would anybody breed ET foals that are worth less than naturally carried foals it would be a total fool who bred ET foals from anything but a mare with a top competition record or very high potential as you might as well throw your money in the air.  The highest routine use of ET is in Polo ponies and it is where most new vets who wish to specialise in this sector learn the craft as it has become very routine. 
I would have very huge reluctance to use your local practice that is now offering ET as many of us who use AI routinely find out very early on experience is everything and I know you can say there is only one way to get experience however not with my mares at my expense as many local practices charge more than specialist. Using a very good reproduction vet means my mares very rarely fail to get pregnant on the first cycle in fact the last 8 have all done that.


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## Laafet (19 February 2018)

sallyf said:



			My ET foals have sold for significant money.
I have been careful to use recipient mares that are related to the donor mares though and to date all have shown very strong characteristics of there biological mothers .
I do think that the recipient is very important and the ones I have used have mostly already produced good competition horses in there own right.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting, I was involved in racing Arabs and the recipient mares were either warmbloods, ponies or TBs that we were given, the foals resulting all looked very different. The maiden recipients threw very small foals compared to the rest of the donor mare's stock. The best ET foal was out of a lovely big warmblood mare who knew her job.


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