# Riding under Sedaline?!



## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

So who does/has/known someone to ride when horse has been given some Sedaline?
 Horse in question has bags of scope and ability, performs well at home, schooling, training lessons but will not compete. ( Should really be at Newcomers level with ease) A few people in the past have recommended I try giving a small amount of Sedaline to compete, just to get him in the habit of going in the ring and doing a job, rather than rearing, at the time I was against it, and now 2 1/2yrs down the line, still in the same situation. Hes medically now fine, (has shockwave for PSD) has been to boot camp with a trainer, I use a 'normal' calmer daily.
 I had a lesson on Saturday, with an excellent instructor, horse jumped the best he has ever, flying 1.15 no issues, except rears and spins at anything he fancies really. Trainer suggested using some just to get him in the ring, and do some smaller classes ie 80-90cm so WELL within his capabilities and break the cycle of napping.
 Now I dont need telling about dope testing rules etc, Im well aware that you shouldnt ride on it, but Im looking for those with experiences with it.


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## Thistle (22 July 2013)

Sedalin/ACP affects the heart rate. Seriously why would you want to compete a horse whose heart is not working normally?

I know it's often used when returning to riden work after box rest but that is low level walking for a short time, not strenous competition.

Please don't do it!


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## Firewell (22 July 2013)

As above!
You are dulling his reactions and asking for an accident imo.


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## hayinamanger (22 July 2013)

Suicide


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## laura-c (22 July 2013)

equine america super kalm, comes in a tube like a wormer... pricey but may be worth a shot


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## YasandCrystal (22 July 2013)

Could you not get a really experienced trainer to jump him at a show? However much you try and react differently your horse will sense you are anticipating the stressy behaviour at a show, so you are in a catch 22 at the moment. It's amazing what perhaps can be achieved just by someone fresh with no history with the horse. That would be my next move.

I have only ever ridden one horse under the influence of ACPs - unbeknown to me and that exploded without warning. I wouldn't do it.


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## MissTyc (22 July 2013)

Having seen a horse "wake up" from sedaline, thankfully not under saddle, there is no way I would knowingly sit on one! 

There are, however, many products on the market that advertise calming, stress-relief, etc ...


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## JillA (22 July 2013)

Could you not just restart him with baby clear rounds to get him enjoying being in the ring? Because that is the problem IMHO - too much pressure once he gets near that competition ring. And, no, I would never ride a horse who is sedated with Sedalin or anything else, much less jump them, for the reasons above (And it is against the law to travel a sedated horse too, in case you were going to sedate him at home)


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

JillA said:



			Could you not just restart him with baby clear rounds to get him enjoying being in the ring? Because that is the problem IMHO - too much pressure once he gets near that competition ring. And, no, I would never ride a horse who is sedated with Sedalin or anything else, much less jump them, for the reasons above (And it is against the law to travel a sedated horse too, in case you were going to sedate him at home)
		
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Tried this, trouble is he wont go in the ring.... Or will on his own terms, ie backwards, or vertical. Warms up fine, then as soon as he hits the arena he changes, visibly, peruse lip, high head, tense etc. On the few occasions I can manage to get him over first few fences he will sometimes settle, but charges at everything.
 Hes been to a pro, on was foot perfect while in training. I dont know anyone locally who would want to sit on him to jump locally, and cash isnt there to send away again as moving house. Plus I dont feel its me, he has melt down just walking down the lane from yard by himself!!


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

YasandCrystal said:



			I have only ever ridden one horse under the influence of ACPs - unbeknown to me and that exploded without warning. I wouldn't do it.
		
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He explodes without warning with out drugs!! 
 Tried Equine America, and pretty much everything else. Hes currently on Equifeast which makes a huge difference, but not enough for the competing


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## HeresHoping (22 July 2013)

Please don't go down this route.  I will tell you why.  

My TB could not be shod behind without Sedalin. Purportedly due to a nasty farrier experience but we know otherwise now.

On 22nd October last year I applied sedalin as prescribed by my vet.  This was for me the third time I had given him the stuff.  Previous occasions he was absolutely fine.  45 minutes go past, start the shoeing.  Horse all over the place, refusing to have his back feet done at all.  The sedalin had obviously made him relax muscle-wise but had not quite had the desired effect on his brain.  Called vet, who said my dose was hardly adequate, to go to the next level and wait 15 minutes.  Bear in mind this was a minuscule amount in the first place - enough to usually make him stand - the next level was only going to take him up to the recommended dose for 500kg.  It did nothing.  We gave up shoeing because just would not have his back feet done.  1/2 an hour later, my boy was knocked for 6, standing like a giraffe at a watering hole with his nose on the floor.  It didn't wear off for the next 6 hours.

I never rode him properly again.  That pratting around with loose muscles resulted in multiple SI ligaments being torn to shreds and aggravating what we subsequently found out to be a poorly-healed fracture of the ilial shaft. He was put down on March 08 this year.

Please go and talk to the people at Equifeast about L-Tryptophan - it's magic stuff!


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

Hereshoping said:



			Please don't go down this route.  I will tell you why.  

My TB could not be shod behind without Sedalin. Purportedly due to a nasty farrier experience but we know otherwise now.

On 22nd October last year I applied sedalin as prescribed by my vet.  This was for me the third time I had given him the stuff.  Previous occasions he was absolutely fine.  45 minutes go past, start the shoeing.  Horse all over the place, refusing to have his back feet done at all.  The sedalin had obviously made him relax muscle-wise but had not quite had the desired effect on his brain.  Called vet, who said my dose was hardly adequate, to go to the next level and wait 15 minutes.  Bear in mind this was a minuscule amount in the first place - enough to usually make him stand - the next level was only going to take him up to the recommended dose for 500kg.  It did nothing.  We gave up shoeing because just would not have his back feet done.  1/2 an hour later, my boy was knocked for 6, standing like a giraffe at a watering hole with his nose on the floor.  It didn't wear off for the next 6 hours.

I never rode him properly again.  That pratting around with loose muscles resulted in multiple SI ligaments being torn to shreds and aggravating what we subsequently found out to be a poorly-healed fracture of the ilial shaft. He was put down on March 08 this year.

Please go and talk to the people at Equifeast about L-Tryptophan - it's magic stuff!
		
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We've got 3pots of L-Tryptohan, worked okish, first 2/3times, now doesnt have any effect! 
 Sorry to hear about your horse being PTS, but the sedaline wouldnt of caused that would it?


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## YasandCrystal (22 July 2013)

OP have you thought of trying an AC? Please don't shoot me down - it worked with my horse to understand what was going on with him.


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## twiggy2 (22 July 2013)

have you done group training sessions?


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## JillA (22 July 2013)

Ring shy is what he is - research this as a problem and you may well find some answers. If he has been professionally jumped, they don't take prisoners and if he couldn't hack it he would have been pushed beyond what he was comfortable with. All he is doing now is saying "NO!! I HATE it!!". In your shoes I would either accept that he has been totally ruined in the past and that he is no longer a jumper (what is he like cross country BTW??) or get help from an experienced alternative horseperson such as one of the Intelligent Horsemanships Recommended Associates.


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

YasandCrystal said:



			OP have you thought of trying an AC? Please don't shoot me down - it worked with my horse to understand what was going on with him.
		
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AC???


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			have you done group training sessions?
		
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Yup, perfectly fine in a group session. Can bit abit silly at times he is quirky, but happy in this environment


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## BeckyD (22 July 2013)

I wouldn't do it.  When my (previous) horse was returning from injury and had to be exercised gently whilst on box rest, he was a total nightmare.  Very dangerous without warning.  He'd be all calm and lovely then suddenly flip out when he didn't want to do something.  We tried all calmers and in the end the vet said to exercise him on ACP (sedalin didn't work on this horse but ACP is the tablet form of it and that did work).  The ACP didn't really help - it kept him even calmer during his "nice" moments and he really was a pleasure during that time, but then ask him something different (like changing the rein or going past a scary bit of arena) and he would flip out of the ACP (the vet said if the adrenaline level got high enough it would override the ACP??? - or something along those lines, I can't really remember) and have a meltdown.  The situation was worse on the sedalin than the ACP.  He was on 10 tablets of ACP, twice a day.

I suspect if you tried it with your horse (leaving aside the danger of jumping of it), I suspect you might find the same thing - i.e. horse will warm up lovely (if somewhat delayed reactions/ a bit dopey) and then come "going in the ring" time, it will behave just as it did before, but without the speed of reactions to be able to safely come down from a rear.  I think it could get very dangerous indeed and I would say that if a professional is recommending this course of action, then they must have experience of it working, and thsu they may well be willing to ride the horse under those circumstances.  

I would also consider the situation as regards insurance (if something bad happened).


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## Twiglet (22 July 2013)

To me, it sounds like a horse who should be retired from competition, rather than competed under sedation. No matter how talented he is or how much potential he has - he's trying to tell you something and it's not that he's a competition horse. 
Getting him round a course under sedation doesn't solve the issue, it might (if you're lucky), get you round on the day, but what does it achieve?


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

JillA said:



			Ring shy is what he is - research this as a problem and you may well find some answers. If he has been professionally jumped, they don't take prisoners and if he couldn't hack it he would have been pushed beyond what he was comfortable with. All he is doing now is saying "NO!! I HATE it!!". In your shoes I would either accept that he has been totally ruined in the past and that he is no longer a jumper (what is he like cross country BTW??) or get help from an experienced alternative horseperson such as one of the Intelligent Horsemanships Recommended Associates.
		
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He is ring shy yes. He was imported as a 4-5yr old. Ive had him 2 1/2yrs and have never been able to do much with him so doesnt have a record as such. Hes now 9, dressage he was ok, a little spooky, but would get round a test, now hes also decided that he hates that, and rears- we've been eliminated from our last 2 DR comps for this! One judge said he was dangerous!! Which I thought was rather dramatic! 
 Ive only ever XC schooled with others, Im not really a fan of XC but on the occasions we've done it, hes got better and better- first attempted was awful rearing etc, now happily jumps.

Intelligent Horsemanships Recommended Associates? Such as Perelli?? I cant say I'm a beliver in all that


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## Patterdale (22 July 2013)

Would you down a bottle of wine then run round an assault course safely?

Ludicrous idea. Go back to the beginning and cure his fear of the ring.


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

Patterdale said:



			Ludicrous idea. Go back to the beginning and cure his fear of the ring.
		
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How would you do this? As feel have tried most routes.
 This is not a decison im taking lightly, and feel its a last resort.


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## YasandCrystal (22 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			He is ring shy yes. He was imported as a 4-5yr old. Ive had him 2 1/2yrs and have never been able to do much with him so doesnt have a record as such. Hes now 9, dressage he was ok, a little spooky, but would get round a test, now hes also decided that he hates that, and rears- we've been eliminated from our last 2 DR comps for this! One judge said he was dangerous!! Which I thought was rather dramatic! 
 Ive only ever XC schooled with others, Im not really a fan of XC but on the occasions we've done it, hes got better and better- first attempted was awful rearing etc, now happily jumps.

Intelligent Horsemanships Recommended Associates? Such as Perelli?? I cant say I'm a beliver in all that
		
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He's rearing for a reason and it doesn't sound like simply stubbornesss. I am using a trainer who is experienced in straightness particularly with rehab horses for my WB due to physical issues and the changes in my boys whole demeanour since starting the straightness work is dramatic. He obviously feels better and freer in himself and is therefore a much happier horse. He is relaxed and calm. I was shocked frankly that what seems like simple stuff could have such an effect on personality and behaviour.  So I would never diss something like Intelligent Horsemanship until I had tried it.


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## Patterdale (22 July 2013)

If it were mine, I'd start taking him to shows just to ride around, stress free. Ask if you can walk him once round the ring at the end of the day, then pat him and go home. Do this until he's totally settled. For weeks if necessary. 
Then start taking him to a few low pressure, intro/prelim dressagey type things, to get him in the ring without jumping. 

When he's doing that calmly, enter a very basic jumping class. All of the above HC by the way. If something freaks him, go back a step. 

It'll take months and you may be disappointed that he's not doing the top of his ability straight away, but that's horses I'm afraid. It's hard work and requires great quantities of patience - not drugs.


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## JoJo_ (22 July 2013)

After being at a Richard Maxwell demo recently, I would really like to see how he would help this horse! Im sure he isnt cheap but maybe see if he is in your area for a clinic?


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## kp31 (22 July 2013)

Having done this i can only say don't! Most horrendous feeling, like you aren't in control and have no idea what is going to happen next. I rode mine on vets advice and it was the worst advice he could have given me. In fact i jumped two fences, came to a double and he jumped in and poor boy couldn't jump out. Was supposed to help him, have to say i don't think it helped anyone. I would possibly be thinking that 2 1/2 years down the line that the horse did not want to do it and the stress of it all surely can't be good for him. Have you taken him to somewhere that you can hire the arena and see how he is then? Is it the stress of the show that brings this behaviour out? But i would really strongly advise against riding and jumping on Sedalin.


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## slumdog (22 July 2013)

I have a very talented 138 pony that I've posted about on here before. I took her as a project knowing her issues, she had been off work for a long time (now i know why) and she also tended to boil over and rear. Unfortunately it appears that she has jacked it, the first couple of competitions once I brought her back into work were good, after that I couldn't get her over the 2nd or 3rd fence and now I can't even get her in the warm up. She'll jump 1m10 at home but won't go round a 2ft clear round class once off the yard. I think drugging her would make her even more unsafe than she already is and I've had to accept she'll probably never compete again. 

I know for a fact doping happens but it's not something I would do. Does competing really mean that much?


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

Patterdale said:



			If it were mine, I'd start taking him to shows just to ride around, stress free. Ask if you can walk him once round the ring at the end of the day, then pat him and go home. Do this until he's totally settled. For weeks if necessary. 
Then start taking him to a few low pressure, intro/prelim dressagey type things, to get him in the ring without jumping. 

When he's doing that calmly, enter a very basic jumping class. All of the above HC by the way. If something freaks him, go back a step. 

It'll take months and you may be disappointed that he's not doing the top of his ability straight away, but that's horses I'm afraid. It's hard work and requires great quantities of patience - not drugs.
		
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We've done this!! Dressage never used to be an issue, so started to forget about the jumping, now he just rears in the dressage ring. Like I said, I think we've been down every other route possible. Hes had 5k spent at the vets, hes been xrayed everywhere, bone scanned, nerve blocked, you name it, hes had it, theres nothing physically wrong with him, Ive sent him to a pro- and he did seem better when he came back, but has now taken a step back. 
 Hes on a general calmer daily anyway, after trying all of the brands this is the best we've found.


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

slumdog said:



			I know for a fact doping happens but it's not something I would do. Does competing really mean that much?
		
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Kinda... He's not a happy hacker, will not leave the yard by himself, so what do I do with a 9yr old big warmblood who has no proven record and is a complete whimp at a show? Not that I want to or could sell him anyway. And I cant put a healthy happy horse down for not wanting to compete.


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

kp31 said:



			Having done this i can only say don't! Most horrendous feeling, like you aren't in control and have no idea what is going to happen next. I rode mine on vets advice and it was the worst advice he could have given me. In fact i jumped two fences, came to a double and he jumped in and poor boy couldn't jump out. Was supposed to help him, have to say i don't think it helped anyone. I would possibly be thinking that 2 1/2 years down the line that the horse did not want to do it and the stress of it all surely can't be good for him. Have you taken him to somewhere that you can hire the arena and see how he is then? Is it the stress of the show that brings this behaviour out? But i would really strongly advise against riding and jumping on Sedalin.
		
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Yup, all the venues we've gone to hes trained in them lots of time previous. 
 I've found hes better outdoors, had RC area jumping a few weeks back, stood in last minute for someone, had lots of fences down, but went in the ring twice, and jumped.
 Yesterday, RC area drressage- outside, reared at every movement, judge stopped test and eliminated us.
Theres no rhyme or reason, but hes a g*t!


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## Patterdale (22 July 2013)

Well then if you are confident in mind that you COULD NOT have done more to help this horse, you have gone down every avenue and given him all the time he needs, and he's just getting worse.....I would retire him from competition. It's clearly making him very unhappy, and you can't be getting much out of it either. 

I have only ever had one horse that could not be cured of a serious nap/rearing. Until her, I wouldn't have believed there wasn't a problem you couldn't solve with time and patience. But some horses just aren't mentally cut out for the job.


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## Mickyjoe (22 July 2013)

Have you had his eyes checked? Just a thought as the reactions sound familiar to a horse that I know, who turned out to have bad cataracts and while he was probably a nappy horse anyway, the eyes were obviously making the whole thing worse.


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

Patterdale said:



			Well then if you are confident in mind that you COULD NOT have done more to help this horse, you have gone down every avenue and given him all the time he needs, and he's just getting worse.....I would retire him from competition. It's clearly making him very unhappy, and you can't be getting much out of it either. 

I have only ever had one horse that could not be cured of a serious nap/rearing. Until her, I wouldn't have believed there wasn't a problem you couldn't solve with time and patience. But some horses just aren't mentally cut out for the job.
		
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I sort of agree, but he will do it occasionally, which is annoying as I think Ive made progress when he does do it, then next time, he downs tools. 
 What do you do with a 9yr old, diva??


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## Queenbee (22 July 2013)

Sorry op, I'm appalled that anyone would even consider or suggest that this is acceptable or a possible solution.


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

Mickyjoe said:



			Have you had his eyes checked? Just a thought as the reactions sound familiar to a horse that I know, who turned out to have bad cataracts and while he was probably a nappy horse anyway, the eyes were obviously making the whole thing worse.
		
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Yup, he does have a cataract in his LE, Brian Patterson saw him Friday, but its small, they will not operate unless its causing the horse to be blind. Spooking is fine, I can cope with that, ring shy is a different matter, hes been in the arenas hundreds of times before.


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

Queenbee said:



			Sorry op, I'm appalled that anyone would even consider or suggest that this is acceptable or a possible solution.
		
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You would be suprised the number of Pro's that compete on it, and also bute! 
 Im looking for people who have used it, or suggestions of things to try- not moaning, Im fully aware its not an ideal situation, and its not been the first thing Ive tried either (read all the thread)


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## ester (22 July 2013)

He wouldn't be the first to have issues going in the ring/jumping at shows some just can't do it and he obviously has similar issues hacking. If mine I think I would find a local IH associate (not parelli  ) and see what they think/if there is anything they can do.


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## slumdog (22 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			Kinda... He's not a happy hacker, will not leave the yard by himself, so what do I do with a 9yr old big warmblood who has no proven record and is a complete whimp at a show? Not that I want to or could sell him anyway. And I cant put a healthy happy horse down for not wanting to compete.
		
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Oh no I wouldn't suggest put him down, but look at it this way, you said he doesn't leave the yard by himself and isn't a happy hacker, so do you make him? He doesn't compete either so why make him? I do get what you're saying and I know how bloody frustrating it is when they are so talented, I honestly do. But if you're resorting to making him jump when he's sedated then that's not a helping him either. It sounds like you're desperately trying to find a 'job' for him to do, would he just be a 'fun' horse? Pleasure rides etc, will he do xc? Or maybe try trec? There's lots of things for him to do without him being in a jumping ring


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

ester said:



			He wouldn't be the first to have issues going in the ring/jumping at shows some just can't do it and he obviously has similar issues hacking. If mine I think I would find a local IH associate (not parelli  ) and see what they think/if there is anything they can do.
		
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Thanks Ester!! 
 Will have a google- I have to say I've never really thought of them being much cop, but its worth ago, I love this horse, and dont want to see him as a field pet.
 Also has anyone tried Piriton?


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## Pinkvboots (22 July 2013)

It sounds to me like his been over jumped and competed to much too young, abroad they often get warmbloods out at 4 doing big courses which in my opinion some are just not ready mentally, they are jumped and jumped and made sour, i would just get him out hacking with company of course no jumps for a good while, no competing and see how he goes some horses just do not have the mind for competion he might be one of them or he could just be sour, but sedating him no I think that is the wrong way to go.


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## Queenbee (22 July 2013)

Your assumption that I have not read the whole thread is wrong  from what I've seen in this thread... 'He hates it' 'he doesn't want to do it' 'can I use sedaline to force him' you're already deciding that your wishes are a priority here, force begets force.

I'm perfectly aware that horses are competed with bute, bute is a totally differ drug with different effects and administered for different reasons (sometimes used/administered for the wrong reasons). Anyone using sedaline to compete is off their head, has no idea about horse welfare and no respect for their horse in my opinion, but none of the above is what you want to hear, so what shall I say?  "Oh yes, cracking idea... Go for it!"

Your horse is 9 for crying out loud, a slightly different scenario but my friend bought a youngster, competed him, he was a fab all rounder but with a particular panache for dressage, about ten years down the line, he started to refuse to load, once he was at the shows he loved it, but had right issues loading... Despite numerous attempts to fix this it only got worse, he was sold to a home where the owners hold dressage competitions on site, he doesn't have to travel anywhere anymore but he gets to do the competing that he loves. Sometimes it's about finding what is right for the horse.

If it were my horse, I'd accept 'he hates it' and I would completely remove all pressure from him, hacking out with friends, schooling at home, doing fun pressure free things, working to no other goal than getting him relaxed in his own skin, I'd do this for at least a year before I even considered another competition, and if after a year I didn't think he was ready, I wouldn't bloody take him to one. If he never felt ready... Well, pretty sure you know my answer!  If he isn't happy at home, he isn't going to be happy when you escalate the pressure even if you pump him full of sedaline.  You risk yourself and your horse. 

Whatever happened to listening to your horse, you are listening, you yourself admits he hates it, but you are doing nothing more than ignoring it for the glory of competition if you pump him full of sedaline to get him around a course.


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## gingerlegs (22 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			You would be suprised the number of Pro's that compete on it, and also bute! 
 Im looking for people who have used it, or suggestions of things to try- not moaning, Im fully aware its not an ideal situation, and its not been the first thing Ive tried either (read all the thread)
		
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Just wanted to add you are completely right! 

When I still worked in racing we used A LOT of sedalin! One of the mares in particular was prone to Azoturia, we would work her (including fast work) and get her fit on Sedalin to prevent this up, until 4 weeks before her first race of the season (to get it out the system) so she could get into a work routine without stressing herself. 
She was only given a very minute dose, to take the edge off... and I mean a drop! but it worked and I believe it was vet recommended... 

I've also known a few to be broken in under Sedalin because there was no way you'd get on them otherwise!

I have never seen any adverse affects and think, used sensibly and appropriately it is no different to clipping a horse, seeing the dentist, shoeing ect under sedalin until it becomes a calm routine and the horse understands that it is not going to cause pain/distress or otherwise.

I will now run for cover and prepare to be shot down!!


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

slumdog said:



			Oh no I wouldn't suggest put him down, but look at it this way, you said he doesn't leave the yard by himself and isn't a happy hacker, so do you make him? He doesn't compete either so why make him? I do get what you're saying and I know how bloody frustrating it is when they are so talented, I honestly do. But if you're resorting to making him jump when he's sedated then that's not a helping him either. It sounds like you're desperately trying to find a 'job' for him to do, would he just be a 'fun' horse? Pleasure rides etc, will he do xc? Or maybe try trec? There's lots of things for him to do without him being in a jumping ring 

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OH GOD NO! Cant do fun rides, they ARE NOT fun!!  lol, he really does need a 'job' hes quick, and cleaver and gets bored easily, Hes does XC schooling  although not too keen on water 
My mother joke, that his idea of heaven would be, stood in his stable 24/7 eating, being groomed and looking beautiful. However he is far to expensive to keep in a stable!
 I am going to google these natural horse people, do they ride the horse for you?? Or just wave carrot sticks?!


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## TarrSteps (22 July 2013)

Did you say the horse DOES have a cataract?


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

gingerlegs said:



			Just wanted to add you are completely right! 

When I still worked in racing we used A LOT of sedalin! One of the mares in particular was prone to Azoturia, we would work her (including fast work) and get her fit on Sedalin to prevent this up, until 4 weeks before her first race of the season (to get it out the system) so she could get into a work routine without stressing herself. 
She was only given a very minute dose, to take the edge off... and I mean a drop! but it worked and I believe it was vet recommended... 

I've also known a few to be broken in under Sedalin because there was no way you'd get on them otherwise!

I have never seen any adverse affects and think, used sensibly and appropriately it is no different to clipping a horse, seeing the dentist, shoeing ect under sedalin until it becomes a calm routine and the horse understands that it is not going to cause pain/distress or otherwise.

I will now run for cover and prepare to be shot down!! 

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Thanks for posting!!! I think people are assuming Im a novice rider who at first instance would like to drug her horse for convenience, this is not the case, and would not class myself as a novice (nor am I a pro)
 If there were another method I could try, I would. Hes a smashing horse when he allows you to ride him, just want to continue that in the DR/SJ ring, and show him off.


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## Booboos (22 July 2013)

Have you tried a pain killer trial just in case he is actually in pain from something you haven't identified yet?
Has he been scoped for ulcers? He could be having flair ups in stressful situations?

Sorry can't think of anything else! Personally I have ridden with sedaline on the vet's orders as it was the only way I could safely get a box rested horse back into work. Could you maybe use the sedaline for a dressage test rather than jumping (and go HC of course)?


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## Mickyjoe (22 July 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Did you say the horse DOES have a cataract?
		
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Thank you!! I feel like the only one who considers this element as significant!!


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## YasandCrystal (22 July 2013)

Exactly Tarrsteps. This will be the cause no doubt. It's extremely difficult for any eye specialist even to say with any certainty how badly eyesight is affected by cataracts or any eye damage for that matter.

I know of an example of this where the vet said the horse's vision was fine. The horse moved yards and became a nightmare and in the end was pts - because poor horse couldn't see properly and was fine on the familiar old yard it had spent years on.

Listen to your horse.


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## JillA (22 July 2013)

You don't believe in alternatives such as Intelligent Horsemanship? The way I see it your convention approach hasn't got you very far - so what have you got to lose? 
My horse was home bred and I know his whole history from when he was the size of a garden pea, but he was a nightmare to break, and spooked at the most ridiculous things, and never seemed to learn. I found the underlying cause (magnesium deficiency) and then had to find a way to educate him that didn't go over the old ground that had failed so much. I read Mark Rashid, learned to see things from the horse's point of view and began to add more and more tools to my very old and very traditional toolbox - pressure and release, leadership skills, aversion therapy which didn't scare him. Your horse is telling you that for whatever reason he isn't happy - how about you see it from his viewpoint and try and find out what is making him so stressed. No prey animal wastes valuable energy for no good reason, so whatever you think, to him it MATTERS
Good "natural horsemen" (how I HATE that phrase but it does mean working with the horses' nature rather than expecting him to fit in with what we decide for him) will use body language and pressure and release to let him know he is safe and he won't be pushed beyond his comfort zone. then they gradually extend his comfort zone, bit by bit but never beyond what he can cope with.
Check it out, you might be pleasantly surprised - but when you find someone, ask others about them, there are some charlatans out there. Check on here, someone will know. I can recommend Micky Gavin, Richard Maxwell and Intelligent Horsemanship's RA's, who are probably the best way to dip your toe in the water without spending a fortune, and seeing whether it helps. You are already paying a trainer, why not change direction and pay someone who might make a difference?
Just seen your question about carrot sticks. If they use one of them, run for the hills!!! Here is somewhere to start http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/specialist-horse-training.html - most will do groundwork to desensitise him to stuff he is anxious about, some will teach you on him, not many will ride him themselves because it is about the relationship between you and him, not them and him


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Did you say the horse DOES have a cataract?
		
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He does yes, has had it for years, no change in size, and can see pretty well. His eyesight I do not believe is the problem. I work in Optics so understand the visual system pretty well.


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## DabDab (22 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			Thanks Ester!! 
 Will have a google- I have to say I've never really thought of them being much cop, but its worth ago, I love this horse, and dont want to see him as a field pet.
 Also has anyone tried Piriton?
		
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I think Kelly Marks (owns the IH company) is actually on this forum


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

Booboos said:



			Have you tried a pain killer trial just in case he is actually in pain from something you haven't identified yet?
Has he been scoped for ulcers? He could be having flair ups in stressful situations?

Sorry can't think of anything else! Personally I have ridden with sedaline on the vet's orders as it was the only way I could safely get a box rested horse back into work. Could you maybe use the sedaline for a dressage test rather than jumping (and go HC of course)?
		
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Hes been scoped, clear, and has had a bute trial, as previous post, nothing wrong physically, all scanned and A OK


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## little_flea (22 July 2013)

Booboos said:



			Have you tried a pain killer trial just in case he is actually in pain from something you haven't identified yet?
Has he been scoped for ulcers? He could be having flair ups in stressful situations?

Sorry can't think of anything else! Personally I have ridden with sedaline on the vet's orders as it was the only way I could safely get a box rested horse back into work. Could you maybe use the sedaline for a dressage test rather than jumping (and go HC of course)?
		
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Absolutely! I have ridden many a horse on acp after box rest. Competing is slightly different though I admit. There are plenty of other drugs available but many wouldn't be allowed in competitions... many of them would definitely not slow reaction time etc. Humans are allowed to compete on anti depressants after all...  I think the stuff us 'normal" people are aware of are just the tip of the iceberg! If all else fails, perhaps worth trying something for a while, as Booboos says, compete HC and by the time the horse is clear it might have overcome issues. *joins firing squad line up*


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## Mickyjoe (22 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			He does yes, has had it for years, no change in size, and can see pretty well. His eyesight I do not believe is the problem. I work in Optics so understand the visual system pretty well.
		
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His reactions sound pretty much identical to the horse I knew. Not wanting to leave the yard on his own, refusing to even walk a step in front of the other horse, throwing tantrums in the ring. When you think about it, he is bound to be better at home or in familiar surroundings. It's only when he is going into unfamiliar territory that a sensitive or nappy horse, whose eyesight is compromised even in a small way, will lose braveness and willingness.


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## Patterdale (22 July 2013)

When did he last have a holiday?

A proper one - at least a month in the field 24/7, no riding whatsoever?


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## ester (22 July 2013)

I do think using it to bring a horse back into work without injuring itself or the rider is different to competing when you are expecting performance. 

If he has had it a long time it does sound like his compromised sight may well be the source of the issues, or at least that he would be a nervous type anyway and the sight issue exacerbates this past the point of being dealable with. I am wondering whether he goes better into outdoor rings could be because of the different light levels indoors.


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

Mickyjoe said:



			His reactions sound pretty much identical to the horse I knew. Not wanting to leave the yard on his own, refusing to even walk a step in front of the other horse, throwing tantrums in the ring. When you think about it, he is bound to be better at home or in familiar surroundings. It's only when he is going into unfamiliar territory that a sensitive or nappy horse, whose eyesight is compromised even in a small way, will lose braveness and willingness.
		
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If it was consistent I could perhaps agree, one day he will go in and jump/ compete dressage and be ok, hack down the lane ok. Other week he refuses to leave yard or does, gets half way and panics. The venues hes been to compete, hes there most weeks anyway, and one day decides he wont go in the arena.


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## Patterdale (22 July 2013)

Sorry - just seen that he has a cataract. 

*facepalm*


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## PaddyMonty (22 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			He's not a happy hacker, will not leave the yard by himself,
		
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This is the biggest clue to your problem.  From my esperience I would say your horse does not have "ring" issues, he has security issues.
Wont hack alone 
Warms up ok at comps but wont go in to ring (alone).
Look at solving the insecurity (start with hacking) and once you resolve that you may well find the competing issues will be minimal


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

Patterdale said:



			When did he last have a holiday?

A proper one - at least a month in the field 24/7, no riding whatsoever?
		
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Hmmm, not since Ive had him has he had 1month off, hes had a holiday of a week/10days, but doesnt live out well so is stabled either in the day(summer) or at night (winter)


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

PaddyMonty said:



			This is the biggest clue to your problem.  From my esperience I would say your horse does not have "ring" issues, he has security issues.
Wont hack alone 
Warms up ok at comps but wont go in to ring (alone).
Look at solving the insecurity (start with hacking) and once you resolve that you may well find the competing issues will be minimal
		
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Completly agree PM, he is insecure, will NH help this?


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## YasandCrystal (22 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			If it was consistent I could perhaps agree, one day he will go in and jump/ compete dressage and be ok, hack down the lane ok. Other week he refuses to leave yard or does, gets half way and panics. The venues hes been to compete, hes there most weeks anyway, and one day decides he wont go in the arena.
		
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OP - can you not see that this horse is trying it's darndest for you? That doesn't mean his eyesight is not compromised or not the problem. That means you do have a great bond and he is doing what comes naturally to all horses - he is trying to please you and do as you ask.  Some days he can manage other days not.


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## Mickyjoe (22 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			If it was consistent I could perhaps agree, one day he will go in and jump/ compete dressage and be ok, hack down the lane ok. Other week he refuses to leave yard or does, gets half way and panics. The venues hes been to compete, hes there most weeks anyway, and one day decides he wont go in the arena.
		
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Neither was the horse I knew (also an imported WB). At an away dressage competition he went in and did beautiful tests on the first day, putting him first and second. However on day two in the same arena, the only way to get him in was to lead him and then he did get going, but halfway through threw another tantrum and had to retire.


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## TarrSteps (22 July 2013)

little_flea said:



			Absolutely! I have ridden many a horse on acp after box rest. Competing is slightly different though I admit. There are plenty of other drugs available but many wouldn't be allowed in competitions... many of them would definitely not slow reaction time etc. Humans are allowed to compete on anti depressants after all...  I think the stuff us 'normal" people are aware of are just the tip of the iceberg! If all else fails, perhaps worth trying something for a while, as Booboos says, compete HC and by the time the horse is clear it might have overcome issues. *joins firing squad line up*
		
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I had ridden horses on ACP (sometimes with prior knowledge, sometimes not) and prefer not to. However, you are right there are other options and, frankly, I suspect most professionals who are at this point with a horse are not going to go so "old school". HOWEVER this is not something to play around with - leaving out the ethics of the situation - without experienced, knowledgeable professional help. And even then, it's hardly a risk free quick fix.

I'm still not convinced by the vision, frankly, I understand that you are very knowledgeable in the area and well versed on what SHOULD be but perhaps the horse does not agree? Any horse that is unexpectedly anxious in new situations, especially when they are alone is going to be suspect in this area. It could be a not strictly a vision issue but perhaps something to do with how quickly he can change his focus or how the eye reacts to changes in light.

Without seeing, it's impossible to say more.

I had a horse in a similar situation and we did eventually get him competing, using a variety of methods, but it was a long road and he never came close to fulfilling his potential. In that case I knew his complete history and there were multiple factors in play - including vision issues - and it was a case of addressing each one individually.


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

Mickyjoe said:



			Neither was the horse I knew (also an imported WB). At an away dressage competition he went in and did beautiful tests on the first day, putting him first and second. However on day two in the same arena, the only way to get him in was to lead him and then he did get going, but halfway through threw another tantrum and had to retire.
		
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Why though? Ive worked in Optics for 8yrs, agree light does play a role, and certain venues their lighting is awful and he's awful in them, even in a group lesson. However, yesterday was outdoor, so not an excuse as he had been stood outside in the same light for ages! I can agree indoor tests/SJ is different and do know going from light outside to dark indoors does take him time to adapt- I can give him some slack, and already thought about not comepting indoors, however outside, hes being naughty and napping to the others


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

TS I value your opinion, and cross posted 
 If your ever in Sunny wales, feel free to pop over and have a go


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## ester (22 July 2013)

But it would be obvious to him if he is insecure to stay with other horses, and he sounds like he has more reasons than most to need that support.


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## Mickyjoe (22 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			Why though? Ive worked in Optics for 8yrs, agree light does play a role, and certain venues their lighting is awful and he's awful in them, even in a group lesson. However, yesterday was outdoor, so not an excuse as he had been stood outside in the same light for ages! I can agree indoor tests/SJ is different and do know going from light outside to dark indoors does take him time to adapt- I can give him some slack, and already thought about not comepting indoors, however outside, hes being naughty and napping to the others
		
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I don't know, but certainly in my horse's case, whether it was from light into dark or vice versa did not play a huge part. The particular situation I described was in an outdoor sand arena. I think it was purely leaving the security of other horses and possibly it was worse some days than others. I should add that I had no idea about the cataracts until a long time after and numerous vets missed them.


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## _GG_ (22 July 2013)

Wow...lots to take in on this thread isn't there. 

Taking a few steps back, all I can see in my head is a horse that is being listened to but misunderstood. 

I understand you are experienced in optics, but no amount of experience will help you understand how your horse is doing each day. He may have days where things are perceived by him to be ok and those are the days that he behaves...because he is not feeling insecure and is happy to get out and do stuff. He may then have days where his perception of his sight is not so positive. The actual cataract is the same as the day before, but his perceived vulnerability may be different, so he may lack the confidence to go out on his own. All the combined experience and knowledge of all the vets and optic specialists in the world cannot tell you how your horse is perceiving his issues on a daily basis. 

Just in the same way that we may go to the doctors with a sprained ankle and they say, you'll be fine to walk on it. Yes, you may be fine one day, but the next day, you are the one with the ankle and despite a doctor telling you you are ok to walk...you know you are not because you are the one feeling the pain. 

So...your horse sounds to me like a very genuine boy, trying his hardest for you, but put in situations when he is not feeling secure, he is asking you to please make it stop. They can't talk to us and tell us what is wrong or actually ask us to call it a day and go home...so they have to resort to other means. Napping, rearing, planting etc. He is telling you he doesn't want to do it and the fact that he does do it willingly sometimes makes me believe that he does enjoy it when he is feeling good....but why push him to do it when he is not feeling good?

Of course he will be better at home when training, it is his home, he knows it and it is a security blanket. 

I do understand why you want to keep trying for a way to make it work, but the truth may just be that he can't do it consistently.

I personally don't have a problem with using drugs to help horses with fear issues, but to use them for our own agenda is questionable to me in this situation. I don't think it will work in his favour. It might work in your favour, but why should your want take precedence over your horses need. 

Of course, this is all just my opinion based on what I have read in these pages, but even as his owner or as his vet or physio or trainer, it would be impossible to know how this horse is perceiving his issues on a daily or even hourly level, so is it right to force a horse, through any means to go through something it is so clearly not happy with?

IH as mentioned may be a good shout as there may be a way to help the horse find more confidence in himself when he is feeling vulnerable and unsure. Worth a try.


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## ester (22 July 2013)

your points about perception are excellent GG


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

I get all that, and I do try to be sympathetic, but he was warming up lovely yesterday, a steward called me over to say what a nice horse he is, then 2mins later, rearing and throwing his toys out, I get that his eye isnt great, but they can have a very good competitive life with just one eye! Was it Ellen W's horse just had one eye?


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## YasandCrystal (22 July 2013)

OP every horse is individual, just because it worked for Ellen W's horse doesn't mean it has to for yours. Can you not see that? It's the same with people isn't it - some cope with a disability well, others not so.  I really think you are misunderstanding him sadly.


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## chaps89 (22 July 2013)

Presumably tho cataracts mean some/limited vision, meaning on a day to day basis there are variables in the horses sight, hence the variables in behaviour? A horse who has one eye removed I would have thought may adapt much better as it becomes the norm for it viewing the world with 1 eye.
(NB, I am no eye specialist, nor am I suggesting the eye be removed, just wondering if that could be why horses with sight in one eye only are different?)


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## ester (22 July 2013)

ellens wore a contact, I can't remember what was exactly wrong though.


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (22 July 2013)

sounds like he's having to shout to be heard..


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## chestnut cob (22 July 2013)

Just because the cataract isn't getting worse by your vet's definition doesn't mean the horse feels OK with it.  It may be that he's been feeling more and more insecure as time has gone on (maybe because of it, or maybe it's just another thing to add to the list that is making him insecure), and has finally thrown the towel in.

It sounds to me like he's insecure full stop, not in the ring.  In all honesty I would speak to your vet again (or get another opinion if needed) about the cataract and get it operated on if you can.  Then I would work on getting him hacking out alone and nothing else, for a long time.  Do loads of hacking and build up the time he spends alone gradually.

Don't discount the IH methods.  I am not especially fluffy and a few years ago would have been aghast at the idea of getting "one of those people" out.  However, horse at the time had become rude, bargy and aggressive.  I'd tried everything to deal with it, as had other (more experienced) people on the yard, with no success.  In the end, someone suggested getting a Kelly Marks RA out and it was a revelation.  In half an hour I had a horse who was responsive, listening and stopped trying to kill me.  I wouldn't say it was a miracle because I had lots of stuff I needed to continue working on after to ensure it became ingrained behaviour (and a lot of the problem was actually with me, not the horse...), but it was as near as dammit!  I haven't needed another RA visit but wouldn't hesitate to use one again if the need arose.  They don't come along waving carrot sticks, crystals or any of the stereotypical things you expect.  IME they're actually very no-nonsense and the one who came to me was really quite hard on my horse to begin with.  But it worked 

If you can get to the bottom of your horse's insecurity and decide to start competing again, I think I'd start with showing classes where he has company in the ring.  That might help a lot.


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## chestnut cob (22 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			I get all that, and I do try to be sympathetic, but he was warming up lovely yesterday, a steward called me over to say what a nice horse he is, then 2mins later, rearing and throwing his toys out, I get that his eye isnt great, but they can have a very good competitive life with just one eye! Was it Ellen W's horse just had one eye?
		
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But no two horses are the same.  Some horses stoically put up with pain or issues all of their lives with little or no complaint yet others are very vocal about it.  Go to any local show... you can see a horse with the most dreadfully fitting saddle (for example) which is doing the best job it can and trying its hardest.  And the next horse could be one whose owner spent a fortune finding the right saddle/girth/whatever because the horse objected violently to everything.  Just because one horse reacts in a specific way doesn't mean the next one will.


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## _GG_ (22 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			I get all that, and I do try to be sympathetic, but he was warming up lovely yesterday, a steward called me over to say what a nice horse he is, then 2mins later, rearing and throwing his toys out, I get that his eye isnt great, but they can have a very good competitive life with just one eye! Was it Ellen W's horse just had one eye?
		
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Please bear with me on this post...it may seem like I am attacking you but I am not, I promise...I fully empathise with your situation, but I would like to ask you to take a step back and see things for what they are, not what you may think they are.

To compare any horse or any injury or illness with another is something that should never be done if you have your horses best interests at heart. You can't say you "get" something and then come straight back with an example of how another horse has done something. That other horse does not have your horses issue, it has its own issue and the two, whilst similar medically, could be completely different as perceived by the individual horse. You can have two horses that have to have an eye removed. One may go on to compete in the Olympics, the other may be completely unable to adjust and cope and need to be PTS. Neither should be compared to the other.

Be honest with yourself Ellie. Have you ever had someone at home have a cold or throat infection and be ill....only for you to get the same bug a week later. That person thinks you should be able to do x,y or z because they could, but you know you've got it worse and you know you can't do those things. One size does not fit all...we are not clones and neither are our horses. 

Not having an eye at all may even be better....how can perception change when there is no input at all. At the moment, your horses perception could be based on how the cataract is affecting him day to day or hour to hour. It can be determined by light and dark, it can be determined by the humidity level dictating how moist the eye is and how able to function it is. Take away the constant changing of perception due to outside stimulus like light and moisture and things could settle down.

Am I advising you to have your horses eye removed? No. I am just saying when do you stop? You're considering sedation to get the horse to compete. Would you consider removal of an eye to do the same? If the answer is no, which I really hope it would be, then maybe just accept that this horses lot in life is to have fun at home on his good days and be left to just be happy doing nothing on his bad days. 

As for the warm up. It is perfectly understandable that he was comfortable in the warm up. No stress, just working away with other things going on, nice and relaxed. Steward comes over, then you get ready to go to the ring...whether you are aware of it or not, your heart rate will rise in anticipation and he will, after the time you have been doing this, realise where you are about to go. Why should he wait until you get there if it's perceived by him to be a bad day. He'll just want to stay in his little warm up comfort zone. 

As I said, I am not having a go. I can see that you are wanting to be more understanding but I can't shake the feeling that you just want it to work. You want to be able to compete and you want to do it on this horse. Just because you want it though doesn't mean it is going to be possible. Every time you put him in this situation, you are causing him distress. Do you want that? Is that what horse ownership is about for you?

He isn't telling you he can't do it. He's just telling you he can't do it on certain days or at certain times. No competition should be more important than the welfare of your horse. I just don't think anyone has the right to make an animal do something it doesn't want to do for such materialistic gain. It's not stress for the sake of saving his life or getting him into a safe place or out of danger. It is not stress for the sake of ensuring safety. It is stress so that you can go around a course of jumps at a competition. Really think about that and decide if you can be happy with putting your horse through that stress just for your own whim.


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## 3Beasties (22 July 2013)

PaddyMonty said:



			This is the biggest clue to your problem.  From my esperience I would say your horse does not have "ring" issues, he has security issues.
Wont hack alone 
Warms up ok at comps but wont go in to ring (alone).
Look at solving the insecurity (start with hacking) and once you resolve that you may well find the competing issues will be minimal
		
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This ^^ I think if you tackle the hacking issues you may find he is better to compete.


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## Queenbee (22 July 2013)

TuscanBunnyGirl said:



			sounds like he's having to shout to be heard..
		
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Sounds a bit like everyone talking to op is having to shout to be heard, unfortunately op doesn't seem to want to hear that it may not be fair or right for the horse. I don't even mean that in a nasty way, I really do get how hard it is when something is happening that you really don't want to accept.  

Eyesight and perception in horses is different to that of humans op.  this is a sensitive horse that has led a pressured life to achieve, sometimes horses can deal with this, sometimes they can't, add to that eyesight issues, insecurity and stress/pressure at every event, not just from competing but from your worries, expectations and fears relating to his behaviour... What more suiting pun?  You would have to be blind to see this is unfair and selfish to continue as you are doing.  Take a step back, give your horse some time to just settle hacking and relaxing at home.  You never know, if its a vicious circle, and you break that circle by working on confidence and security issues at home, even with his eye issues he may develop the confidence to compete again.  He is not going to develop the confidence by being pushed, sedative or no sedative.


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## LegOn (22 July 2013)

Someone else mentioned this earlier in the thread - an AC? Animal Communicator - its not expensive & heck, its worth a try to be honest. 

We had a horse on the yard that was constantly biting and vicious on the ground - amazing to ride but impossible to handle & tack up. He was checked for months for pain & buted up & everything done on him to get him to stop but he wouldnt.  He was handled gently, given a good whack, everything was tried.  We got an animal communicator out & he told he her that he looses his temper very quickly & he wasnt in pain - we got her to tell him that it wasnt acceptable any more and to quit it.  He enjoyed his work so she was able to reason with him that he wouldnt get to do his job anymore if he didnt co-operate on the ground. 

And hey-presto, chilled out horse who is now much easier to handle! Worth a try - nothing ventured, nothing gained!


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## Supanova (22 July 2013)

Out of interest, what do you do when your horse rears and refuses to go?


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

Supanova said:



			Out of interest, what do you do when your horse rears and refuses to go?
		
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Hold on tight!! when hes jumping grab his martingale, dressaging hold his neck. when he has 4 feet on the floor, he moves on as if nothing has happened. Then will either do the test/round no probs, or try it again.


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## Supanova (22 July 2013)

So do you do anything when he has 4 feet back on the ground? i.e. do you get cross, smack him (not that i'm suggesting you should, i'm just wondering how you react to him)?  When you try to go in the ring does he just keep rearing and rearing until you have to give up?


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

Supanova said:



			So do you do anything when he has 4 feet back on the ground? i.e. do you get cross, smack him (not that i'm suggesting you should, i'm just wondering how you react to him)?  When you try to go in the ring does he just keep rearing and rearing until you have to give up?
		
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No, dont hit him! (that makes him worse) just ignore him, he gets bored, and carries on with test or round. To go in the ring, once 4 feet are on the floor, he will normally go backwards, so use this to get us to the first fence- then kick on and jump normally around the course ok. He will have fences down as hes rushing, but Id rather that than not going anywhere.


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

I should perhaps add, he was with a young girl for a few months before I bought him, where we believe all this started from, he would say no, she would get off and refuse to ride him. Previous to that, he was at a dealers yard, Ive spoken to them, and seen videos, horse looks happy jumping around a course in competition


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## rachyblue (22 July 2013)

It's one thing understanding optics, it's another (impossible) thing to know exactly what your horse is seeing (or not as the case may be) on a day to day basis.

Personally I'd start by giving him a good (6 + weeks) holiday to chill out. That doesn't mean you have to abandon him in a field, just minimal handling, other than for things he might enjoy, like grooming etc. Warmbloods are by their nature often stress heads, even the calmer ones can have a full on meltdown if pushed too hard for too long. They are intelligent (despite appearances sometimes ) animals and are often keen to please, and when they can't it can really stress them out.

He sounds insecure and stressed, don't be afraid of trying something different, the more traditional seems to have failed him so far. Don't be scared of people with carrot sticks (I am not a parelli nut, but I like some of the equipment, the sticks are useful for precision poking ) you may find something that works.

But you may have to accept that he won't compete again.


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## Supanova (22 July 2013)

And just to be clear - this only ever happens when you are in the competition ring or going hacking?


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## _GG_ (22 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			I should perhaps add, he was with a young girl for a few months before I bought him, where we believe all this started from, he would say no, she would get off and refuse to ride him. Previous to that, he was at a dealers yard, Ive spoken to them, and seen videos, horse looks happy jumping around a course in competition
		
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You might have had some different input if this was included in your OP. 

Whatever the reasons behind this, blindly carrying on and trying to "cover" the problem will just mask symptoms, not get to the cause. 

Give him a decent 4-6 week break from ridden work as you say he has never had that and then start over taking everything into account and following some of the great advice that has been given on this thread.


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

Supanova said:



			And just to be clear - this only ever happens when you are in the competition ring or going hacking?
		
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Yes- when ever pressure is applied this is what it results in.


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## TheMule (22 July 2013)

I think you've probably given him enough time to prove that he's not going to be the competition horse you want. I'm sure he could do a useful job for someone if he is nice at home. For whatever reason, it sounds like he just doesnt want to play the game and it's not fair on him or fun for you to continue trying


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## StoptheCavalry (22 July 2013)

I am not qualified to comment regarding the sedalin - but what I have understood from this is that if you were to go into the arena with the same jumps to just train he would be better than if you were to go in with the same jumps but for a competition? Everyone seems to be focussed on the cataracts but from what you have said he has experience in these venues and arenas etc but massively falls apart in a competition setting at the same venue, in which case while the cataracts may contribute to the problem surely it is more of a "ring shy" issue than medical issue?

Everyone is saying that he is shouting to be heard etc but I had a friend with a foreign mare, very talented. She didn't particularly do any serious competing with her but when the mood took her the mare would literally stand in the corner on two legs constantly. One day it could be a clear round, the next 1m+ there was no consistency in what caused it, not venue, tack, coloured/rustic fences. After trying pretty much everything what seemed to really help her was to remove all pressure and once my friend decided she didn't actually care if she competed or not, if there was a space on the wagon she would come along if not she wouldn't bother, the horse actually improved. However I think by this point the fun of competing was completely zapped and so she really just didn't enjoy it anymore. She went on to be a brilliant hunter though - generally with all 4 feet on the ground.


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## Firewell (22 July 2013)

OP you said you sent him to a Pro and he got better...then got worse once you got him back.
If it's not physical with the eye then it's a confidence and security issue..and maybe it's because you are not suited to him?! He may be better with someone else.


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## Supanova (22 July 2013)

Ok, from what you've said i don't necessarily agree with the others that this is to do with the eyes.  Correct me if i'm wrong but it primarily seems to be when you try and take him away from other horses, so it seems more like separation anxiety / nappiness or he's picking up on your body's reaction to competition nerves or your body's reaction to the expectation he will do this - does this sound right?

Now I bet you're hoping that i am going to give you some real pearls of wisdom as to how to deal with it.....which i'm afraid i'm not! I have a mare who is very similar.  I agree that the root cause is probably the way the young girl dealt with this in the first place.  All horses will have separation anxiety.  I have two mares.  When i bought my first mare she hacked out ok the first day, second day she tried to nap towards home - i dealt with it really badly as i was less experienced and was scared.  She will now not hack and is nappy at shows etc.  My second mare also hacked out fine first few times but as she got to know me and home, she started to try to nap back home - this time i learnt from my experience and dealt with it better.  She now hacks fine.  

What i'm trying to say is that these early experiences and how people deal with them do form behaviour patterns, which do not necessarily mean the horse is absolutely terrified or in pain.  The difficulty is - how do you break the pattern?  This is obviously not easy......... however it may be worth considering something like clicker training so you are using positive reinforcement rather than negative reinforcement.  It seems to me that the horse needs to be persuaded that there is a reward to doing what you ask.  At the moment if he does go in the ring for you, all that happens is that he jumps round the course in a rush and is probably a bit scared.  How about taking him to a clear round and if he goes in the ring, just have a canter round and give him a big pat and polo and come out.  Give him a break, take him in again and pop one fence and then reward and come out.  Then go home.  I know this is not an easy process and will take a long time, but I really think that unless the motivation of the horse  changes (i.e. there is a good reason for him to want to go in the ring, other than escaping from pressure) then you will never really fix the problem.


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## StoptheCavalry (22 July 2013)

Infact whilst thinking about this I have thought of another horse. He was a beautiful hunter bred for the show ring. He did very well but at the age of about 6 he fell apart. One day he may be great, the next day you couldn't get near him. Everything was on his terms and no one could quite work out what was wrong, one day after deciding he would rather go left than right on a hack (with others) he threw his rider twice, literally one after the other, the next day he would be the safe horse you could put your granny on. Eventually after crashing (quite literally) through fences at osbaldeston he was turned out, no rug just left to be a horse. He had been that way for about 2 years and his attitude has done a complete 180, he seems to be mentally scarred by something to do with competing to the point where now if you put front boots on him as you would at competitions he will FREAK out and go mad. He needs to be treated with kid gloves and everything has to be so slow with him. After all this chances are he will never set the world alight as he just can't take the pressure. I don't think I have the patience to deal with this but maybe your horse just needs a little time to get himself together and stop being such a diva and realise he is actually a horse. This obviously may only apply if there is no medical issue but might be worth considering


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

If I honestly thought it was medical I would get it treated, I love this horse, he's a horse of a life time- except the arena shy, nappiness. 
 The one venue is where our RC is held, so he's there a lot, dressaging, jumping, in group lessons, and BD and BS shows are held there- he should be able to go in to the arena without a care in the world, not thinking something is going to kill him. Yet on another day we've been placed there! 





StoptheCavalry said:



			I am not qualified to comment regarding the sedalin - but what I have understood from this is that if you were to go into the arena with the same jumps to just train he would be better than if you were to go in with the same jumps but for a competition? Everyone seems to be focussed on the cataracts but from what you have said he has experience in these venues and arenas etc but massively falls apart in a competition setting at the same venue, in which case while the cataracts may contribute to the problem surely it is more of a "ring shy" issue than medical issue?

Everyone is saying that he is shouting to be heard etc but I had a friend with a foreign mare, very talented. She didn't particularly do any serious competing with her but when the mood took her the mare would literally stand in the corner on two legs constantly. One day it could be a clear round, the next 1m+ there was no consistency in what caused it, not venue, tack, coloured/rustic fences. After trying pretty much everything what seemed to really help her was to remove all pressure and once my friend decided she didn't actually care if she competed or not, if there was a space on the wagon she would come along if not she wouldn't bother, the horse actually improved. However I think by this point the fun of competing was completely zapped and so she really just didn't enjoy it anymore. She went on to be a brilliant hunter though - generally with all 4 feet on the ground.
		
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## JillA (22 July 2013)

Supanova said:



			Out of interest, what do you do when your horse rears and refuses to go?
		
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I had a mare who napped badly and her chosen protest was a rear. I read about the German "mill" - i.e. turn to their stiffest side, a real tight nose-to-your-boot circle. It HAS to be tight, any softer and they could still rear but topple over - it is an effective aversion therapy IF you know everything else has been checked out and it is napping, pure and simple. After a full circle you ask for forward again and if they offer another rear, circle again until they consent to go forward, then reward well. It took four episodes, on the 5th I felt her hesitate, took a feel on that rein and then felt her let go and decide forwards was much the preferable option. 
She went on to be one of the best mares I have ever known, that strong determination became channelled to work for me rather than against me. But it should be used only in the most experienced hands and only after everything else is checked and eliminated.


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## TarrSteps (22 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			I get all that, and I do try to be sympathetic, but he was warming up lovely yesterday, a steward called me over to say what a nice horse he is, then 2mins later, rearing and throwing his toys out, I get that his eye isnt great, but they can have a very good competitive life with just one eye! Was it Ellen W's horse just had one eye?
		
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Lots of horses live happily with one eye. But any specialist will tell you that horses with compromised vision struggle much more. I've seen more than one person struggle to "save" their horse's eye from a serious condition, only to have the horse become more and difficult and then they give up the fight, remove the eye and the horse reverts to a much more settled state. 

Horses hate uncertainly and are hard wired to react to change. Their vision relies mostly on movement and their processing of what they see relies on quick reactions. A horse that sticks around to check out the fine details is lunch. So it's not much of a stretch to see that blurry or compromised vision is much more anxiety producing than no vision at all, especially to a horse being asked new questions. (Most of the horses I know working successfully with one eye have either been that way from birth or do jobs they did before they lost their sight, usually with the same people. I don't think this is coincidental.)


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## TarrSteps (22 July 2013)

Btw, I am not saying it IS the cataract, only that, as others have said, it's impossible to extrapolate the medical information into a firm diagnosis of his behaviour one way or the other. Often, when you hear hoofbeats, it DOES mean horses, not zebras. A far more likely scenario is that there are multiple factors in play and addressing enough them might very well give you a workable solution, at least in the short term. In that way, various training approaches might very well help, if only by giving the horse more structure and ability to rely on his rider rather than his own perception of the environment.


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

Thanks for this, my DR trainer also recomended me try keeping my one hand low and wide- almost behind me knee, but found this almost made him go higher? Will try circling instead. I honestly believe its napping/ring shy if I thought he was in suffering he would be treated, vet saw him last Thursday and told me to up his work!!





JillA said:



			I had a mare who napped badly and her chosen protest was a rear. I read about the German "mill" - i.e. turn to their stiffest side, a real tight nose-to-your-boot circle. It HAS to be tight, any softer and they could still rear but topple over - it is an effective aversion therapy IF you know everything else has been checked out and it is napping, pure and simple. After a full circle you ask for forward again and if they offer another rear, circle again until they consent to go forward, then reward well. It took four episodes, on the 5th I felt her hesitate, took a feel on that rein and then felt her let go and decide forwards was much the preferable option. 
She went on to be one of the best mares I have ever known, that strong determination became channelled to work for me rather than against me. But it should be used only in the most experienced hands and only after everything else is checked and eliminated.
		
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## ester (22 July 2013)

That's where I kind of agree with both supanova and tarrsteps, he is possibly the sort of horse inclined to nappiness/other horse company etc/sensitive to rider tenseness and the eye issue just adds to this making it worse than it might other be. Might be wrong but would make sense to me. 

OP when doing RC stuff at that arena have you been able to/had the opportunity to try taking him to that arena on his own? so not a comp and you poss more relaxed? Will he do that or is he mostly in there with others (if so lending more to the separation anxiety thing).


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

ester said:



			That's where I kind of agree with both supanova and tarrsteps, he is possibly the sort of horse inclined to nappiness/other horse company etc/sensitive to rider tenseness and the eye issue just adds to this making it worse than it might other be. Might be wrong but would make sense to me. 

OP when doing RC stuff at that arena have you been able to/had the opportunity to try taking him to that arena on his own? so not a comp and you poss more relaxed? Will he do that or is he mostly in there with others (if so lending more to the separation anxiety thing).
		
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Have tried going in first when in a lesson, fine. If its indoors then needs A little kick, but walks in ok, it's warming up with others, then leaving them to go to another ring,


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## dafthoss (22 July 2013)

I always thought that partial sight was worse than no sight as they are aware that some thing is on that side but cant make it out properly. Its not how much they can see its how they process it that's the issue. 

Having seen your above comment have you got a very local venue that you could warm him up at home then go straight in the ring when you arrive so he doesn't have to leave the other horses?


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

Good suggestion, worth a try- hadn't really thought about that.



dafthoss said:



			I always thought that partial sight was worse than no sight as they are aware that some thing is on that side but cant make it out properly. Its not how much they can see its how they process it that's the issue. 

Having seen your above comment have you got a very local venue that you could warm him up at home then go straight in the ring when you arrive so he doesn't have to leave the other horses?
		
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## dieseldog (22 July 2013)

I thought when you competed them on Sedalin you didn't let them have water for an hour and then put a drop on the end of a matchstick and dab it under their tongue.  It is supposed to just take the edge off. Never done it myself but it is nothing like giving them a tube of the stuff so that you can clip them.  I think if you were at a show you would not be able to tell who has had some.


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## twiggy2 (22 July 2013)

the horse will not compete  and that is what you want to do? how can it be your horse in a million.

i am not sure what else you want people to say,all avenues have been covered but non are possible?


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

dieseldog said:



			I thought when you competed them on Sedalin you didn't let them have water for an hour and then put a drop on the end of a matchstick and dab it under their tongue.  It is supposed to just take the edge off. Never done it myself but it is nothing like giving them a tube of the stuff so that you can clip them.  I think if you were at a show you would not be able to tell who has had some.
		
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Yes exactly, I'm only talking the smallest amount, to take the edge off him- not so much he will fall over!


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## Wheels (22 July 2013)

If he has as bad a reaction as you say then I really doubt that is going to do anything. I've seen a spooked horse fight off much more than that.

I actually don't know why you've come on to ask advice as the majority of people have told you it's not a good idea yet you still appear to be thinking of doing it???? 

I personally would be working to build my relationship with the horse as it seems that he is not comfortable leaving other horses just to be with you.  Horses will generally always rather be with other horses but he should be capable of going with you somewhere and being comfortable enough to leave the others.

I do actually agree with a couple of posters who have mentioned 'natural' type trainers (although JillA I agree that I hate that 'natural' tag too).  A good relationship starts on the ground and can be transferred to the saddle. Even traditional / classical style in hand work may be of benefit here to give your horse confidence in you.


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

Wheels said:



			If he has as bad a reaction as you say then I really doubt that is going to do anything. I've seen a spooked horse fight off much more than that.

I actually don't know why you've come on to ask advice as the majority of people have told you it's not a good idea yet you still appear to be thinking of doing it???? 

I personally would be working to build my relationship with the horse as it seems that he is not comfortable leaving other horses just to be with you.  Horses will generally always rather be with other horses but he should be capable of going with you somewhere and being comfortable enough to leave the others.

I do actually agree with a couple of posters who have mentioned 'natural' type trainers (although JillA I agree that I hate that 'natural' tag too).  A good relationship starts on the ground and can be transferred to the saddle. Even traditional / classical style in hand work may be of benefit here to give your horse confidence in you.
		
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Because I've had several pm where people have commented how it can be used safely and effectively, but as too often on this forum, people are 'scared' to say what they feel without being jumped on by others. 
 If you read the first post, I said I was interested in people who have experience with it, not just the 'your a bad owner, etc' for considering using it. I have tried to explain my reasons behind me thinking about it, whether people have bothered to read the whole thread, I probably guess not. If you knew the horse you could perhaps understand why these people have suggested it, they are all qualified instructors, who know myself and horse, not some teenager who thinks its a good Idea. For the people who have commented thank you, I will be looking into the 'natural' horsemanship, as admit, have always discounted it to being 'happy clappy' 
 I am competing this weekend, at a venue he knows well, and where he has SUCCESSFULLY competed in both DR and SJ, for anyone who is interested I will post a report of my findings and whether, if any drugs used.


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## be positive (22 July 2013)

Regardless of the right or wrongs in using sedalin, it seems to me that in this case it will have little effect, it acts as a muscle relaxant so they can mentally fight it, it could have an effect on his behaviour but will it help long term or actually solve any problems it seems unlikely. 
I am surprised you posted, you have disregarded most suggestions on why you should not use it, I think your mind was made up and hope it does not go wrong for the sake of your horse, he may not respond to it anyway, one of mine is extremely sensitive and goes out like a light on a tiny amount and I certainly would not want to ride him but he can still react in a normal way shooting off and rearing when walking in hand after months of box rest, unfortunately when he did go he found it hard to balance and slipped over once or twice risking injury, the thought of jumping while in that state frankly scares me.


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## DabDab (22 July 2013)

be positive said:



			Regardless of the right or wrongs in using sedalin, it seems to me that in this case it will have little effect, it acts as a muscle relaxant so they can mentally fight it, it could have an effect on his behaviour but will it help long term or actually solve any problems it seems unlikely. 
I am surprised you posted, you have disregarded most suggestions on why you should not use it, I think your mind was made up and hope it does not go wrong for the sake of your horse, he may not respond to it anyway, one of mine is extremely sensitive and goes out like a light on a tiny amount and I certainly would not want to ride him but he can still react in a normal way shooting off and rearing when walking in hand after months of box rest, unfortunately when he did go he found it hard to balance and slipped over once or twice risking injury, the thought of jumping while in that state frankly scares me.
		
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Exactly - the problem with drugs like sedaline is that until you give it to the individual horse and put it in that stressful situation you just don't know how it is going to react. No matter how many positive or negative anecdotes you hear, the truth is that you you won't know how your horse will react until you do it. So if you're willing to risk it then that's up to you. I wouldn't personally, not in a million years. And that's not because I am fluffy or naive, it's because I've ridden horses that have had 'just a touch' of dope (ACP and sedaline), and even when it has the desired effect it ain't a pleasant experience. I certainly wouldn't choose it for any horse whose welfare I had a say in.


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## TarrSteps (22 July 2013)

be positive said:



			Regardless of the right or wrongs in using sedalin, it seems to me that in this case it will have little effect, it acts as a muscle relaxant so they can mentally fight it, it could have an effect on his behaviour but will it help long term or actually solve any problems it seems unlikely. 
I am surprised you posted, you have disregarded most suggestions on why you should not use it, I think your mind was made up and hope it does not go wrong for the sake of your horse, he may not respond to it anyway, one of mine is extremely sensitive and goes out like a light on a tiny amount and I certainly would not want to ride him but he can still react in a normal way shooting off and rearing when walking in hand after months of box rest, unfortunately when he did go he found it hard to balance and slipped over once or twice risking injury, the thought of jumping while in that state frankly scares me.
		
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To be fair, when I've seen people using it for riding it has been a really tiny amount, far smaller than used for even hand walking. I do wonder if the muscle relaxing aspect is actually what works in some cases. I've ridden horses on muscle relaxants and that can produce a profound (and rather depressing, if you think the horse "should be" sound) effect. As I said, jumping horses on ACP is not, in my experience, a good time and there is ample evidence that it impairs learning so has limited application for educational purposes. 

OP, as you say, I have no doubt you've been given private advice and I can easily see why those people would not want to publicly discuss it. (And this is why there can be a huge gulf between what experienced people in the horse industry know and what the average one horse owner has experience with. Secret handshake stuff.) It is, of course, against the rules.  If you are bound and determined I would highly advise professional input, maybe even a pro on the horse, to minimise risk. I would also repeat my earlier point that using "chemical restraint" or similar is most effective as a means to an end, not a solution unto itself. I also think there are usually other ways but hey ho, to each their own.


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## charlie76 (22 July 2013)

I has a nappy horse, he would rear in the dressage arena and lose the plot, I once competed him HC with a very small amount of sedalin just to see if it actually made any difference. It did, he didn't nap or rear and his score ( although we were HC ) was over 75%
I did it to try and break the cycle of behaviour. It worked with him.


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## charlie76 (22 July 2013)

Had not has..


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## ellie_e (22 July 2013)

charlie76 said:



			I has a nappy horse, he would rear in the dressage arena and lose the plot, I once competed him HC with a very small amount of sedalin just to see if it actually made any difference. It did, he didn't nap or rear and his score ( although we were HC ) was over 75%
I did it to try and break the cycle of behaviour. It worked with him.
		
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Thanks- how much did you give him over what period of time?


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## charlie76 (22 July 2013)

A tiny bit, about one notch, about an hour before getting on. 
I know of some one that did a ode on a full tube!! Mental cases, they did survive, god knows how!!

 Another thing that has worked with one of mine is to feed a magnesium calmer at a high does on a daily basis for a few weeks they use oxy shot on the day of the show.


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## LynH (22 July 2013)

My concern with jumping under/after sedation would be the potential risk of damage to relaxed muscles, tendons and ligaments. If a muscle is relaxed then logically there would be an increased risk of overextension of the tendons or ligaments which could result in significant damage. 
I believe there have been some studies on the damage caused to athletes who tried to use muscle relaxants to reduce the time spent stretching and warming up the muscles. Instead of warming up and preparing soft tissues for exercise they became relaxed and prone to hyperextension and sprains. 
I would want to speak to a vet about the potential risk of injury if a horse is expected to do an activity no normally expected whilst under the influence of this drug.


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## Queenbee (22 July 2013)

Do you know what op, for the RIGHT reasons, I probably would not argue the use of either bute or sedaline... Your reasons are purely selfish, shame on you, you simply couldn't care less about what your horse is telling you!  Attitudes like this sicken me, why on earth bother asking for an opinion or guidance, just crack on, dope your horse to force it to do something it's clearly not comfortable with, really hope you get your trophies and rosettes.


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## Cop-Pop (23 July 2013)

It's a banned substance but have you tried Valerian?  I recently started feeding it to my mare and if she has a couple of large doses it does take the edge off her.  I use the liquid in her food.  She did build up a tolerance to it though so only use it when I need it now rather than every day like the instructions say


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## _GG_ (23 July 2013)

Queenbee said:



			Do you know what op, for the RIGHT reasons, I probably would not argue the use of either bute or sedaline... Your reasons are purely selfish, shame on you, you simply couldn't care less about what your horse is telling you!  Attitudes like this sicken me, why on earth bother asking for an opinion or guidance, just crack on, dope your horse to force it to do something it's clearly not comfortable with, really hope you get your trophies and rosettes.
		
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I have to be honest, this is how I feel. It is not the practice that I disagree with, it is the reason. 

I don't think is just one issue. I think it is a number of issues and the OP may have got more useful advice if all of the details had been put in the OP. Finding out about past owners on page 6 or whatever was means you have to accept that people will lean one way...the way the information has taken them.

So, someone has had a negative impact on the behaviour of the horse BUT...it still doesn't explain why it is an inconsistent issue. Hence my feelings that there is more to this horse than is evident in these pages. 

Either way...the horse isn't happy and drastic measures for the sake of a rosette is just foreign to me. He's a horse, not a commodity.


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## _GG_ (23 July 2013)

Cop-Pop said:



			It's a banned substance but have you tried Valerian?  I recently started feeding it to my mare and if she has a couple of large doses it does take the edge off her.  I use the liquid in her food.  She did build up a tolerance to it though so only use it when I need it now rather than every day like the instructions say 

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Also not good them long term. I have used it for my ex racer when she went through a stressed phase to try and help her cope and it did work. I fed a mix of Valerian and Vervain root in her feed.


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## Queenbee (23 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			I have to be honest, this is how I feel. It is not the practice that I disagree with, it is the reason. 

I don't think is just one issue. I think it is a number of issues and the OP may have got more useful advice if all of the details had been put in the OP. Finding out about past owners on page 6 or whatever was means you have to accept that people will lean one way...the way the information has taken them.

So, someone has had a negative impact on the behaviour of the horse BUT...it still doesn't explain why it is an inconsistent issue. Hence my feelings that there is more to this horse than is evident in these pages. 

Either way...the horse isn't happy and drastic measures for the sake of a rosette is just foreign to me. He's a horse, not a commodity.
		
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Very well put. It is a very sad state of affairs to say that a horse means the world to you and then adopt this kind of approach, when someone means the world to you you try to understand them and help them work through things for their benefit, not railroad them for your own gain.


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## LadyRascasse (23 July 2013)

I personally would never use sedalin to compete on, having used it to clip a horse and he very violently came round and nearly broke my arm when he reared up. My other point I would like to make my old boy developed cataracts and he was a complete angel until he couldn't cope any more he started rearing when ridden, he ran into his fence and became quite panicky on occasions nothing like the horse he used to be. So if you vet isn't prepared to treat them I would be getting a second opinion. Also I had a mare that rear from we assumed was bad behaviour she was seen by the vet and had several trainers look at her who all said it was bad behaviour, eventually a different vet looked at her and found a compressed vertebra in her neck causing her a lot of pain which she carried on with it, telling us when she could that she was in pain. So I would say despite your professionals opinions I would be listening to your horse after all he is the only one who know what he feels!!


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## amage (23 July 2013)

You say he improved with a pro and then took a step back once he came back to you..,.at what point do you stop blaming your horse and start looking at yourself and what you are doing?!?! Send him back to the pro, get him going and this time get them to work on you aswell not just the horse


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## LouisCat (23 July 2013)

This thread has made me a bit sad. My horse of a lifetime (still got him) had been there and done a bit of everything. The first couple of years I had him we grew together, jumping big, technical courses and together we won so so many things. He did all this whilst being absolutely loved as part of the family.

One day we were competing and he started rearing and napping. We tried for 2 years to get him jumping as at home he loved it but competing he didn't. We took him back to 20cms jumping, we had Richard Maxwell out (he sorted many issues but couldn't solve the issue due to it being purely competing and being unable to sort him in that environment). As a last resort we went to an Animal Communicator. We weren't expecting anything, we told him the name and sent him one picture and he told us everything we could have already known about D and so much more. It broke my heart listening to the AC. My beloved horse had been doing everything asked of him since a 2 y/o (we had known this - he was sold as 5 to his previous owners) and he couldn't handle life competing any more.

Since then he has become a bit of a pet, he hacks around and does dressage and occasionally does some jump schooling which he loves and he's so happy - and it makes me happy to see him enjoying life.  I could never have considered doping him to gain my own enjoyment out of him, he'd gritted his teeth and done it for years and then he'd screamed at us to tell us that he just couldn't do it anymore. I think horses are owed more respect than they get - you have to remember it isn't natural for them to have people on their backs doing SJ and trotting circles! 

I can't explain how much I miss competing him, I don't think I'll ever understand a horse and have a partnership with one the way I had with him, but that was why I had to ignore what I wanted to do and put him first.

I'm really not a fluffy bunny hugger but I would honestly recommend an AC (PM me if you want to know who I used). The AC "spoke" to D and D "told" him the daily routine from what I would do in what order every morning, to his favourite treat I'd take him. The AC even mentioned that D appreciated how I always took the bridle apart to tack him up as he hated his ears being touched...I honestly believe every word the AC said, he could tell me stuff I did with D all the time which only I would've known. He also did a follow up with us and one of the things D "told" him was that since he competes less he's happier that he doesn't have to see hardly any men any more...

I think there are so many avenues to try before competing on sedalin and if he truly is your horse of a lifetime then you owe it to him. (Like many others I think there is a use for things like ACP if a horse is coming back into work after box rest or something similar - so I'm not entirely against it for quiet walk work but nothing more)


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## FfionWinnie (23 July 2013)

I think if you get a really good trainer to help, like Richard Maxwell, he would look at this from a totally different angle and address the cause and all the issues. 

Leaving the eye aside, I'd want to work on all of his insecurities and all of his evasions before going near a ring. It's a very engrained vice now, so whatever you do its going to take a lot of work to sort it. It has to be the right sort of sorting however, otherwise you are not going to get anywhere. 

I'd be surprised if sedalin made the slightest difference to the problem, but I've never used it under saddle myself.


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## aimsymc (23 July 2013)

I'm not getting into the right or wrong debate. I am aware lots of horses and ponies are competed on illegal substances sedalin being probably one of the mildest! However most are given because their too keen for the job.I really don't think it would work in this case tbh. I also echo the point about horses being more settled with eye removed rather than poor sight. I honestly cant understand sometimes why people persevere for so long trying to get horses to be something there not, you like competing he doesn't...... sell him and get one who likes competing!


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## Firewell (23 July 2013)

I feel sad as well reading this . There are so many horses in the world that will do what the OP wants why is she putting this horse through all this just for a silly piece of cheap ribbon or a few coins when he is clearly trying to tell her he is not happy for whatever reason (be it the rider, pain, insecurity). Why can't he be a horse that hacks with friends and schools/jumps at home? 
The thought of drugging my horse so he will jump round a course of fences fills me with horror. I would never force him to do something he doesn't want to do by taking away his reactions. It's also dangerous! What if he gets a wrong stride and he can't adjust quick enough and you end up IN the jump instead of over it? Part of the enjoyment of riding for me is the partnership with a horse and us doing things together that are enjoyable. I understand some horses need to a job so to speak but why can't that be a different job for someone else?


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## Supanova (23 July 2013)

I can see both sides of the argument here, but i also feel a bit sorry for the OP.  She has simply asked about people's experience of using seadline whist riding because a professional has suggested it to her to try and solve an issue with this horse.  We have all jumped in, me included, and given her alterative advice on dealing with this issue.  

There are a number of people who are saying you should simply not be competing this horse and should just be a happy hacker, because he obviously doesn't enjoy it!  You know what if we all took this view on our life with horses then i think none of us would actually ride them at all - i very much doubt any horse enjoys being ridden for the first time.  I am sure that they are all anxious about going away from other horses.  However, we put them through it anyway.  People also seem to assume all horses enjoy hacking or doing a little bit of flatwork - i can tell you that my horse (and by the sound of it the OP's horse is the same) hates hacking and gets very bored just riding round in the arena at home!   

I hack my horse round the field and everytime we go to through the gate in to the next field she rears and spins because she wants to go home to her pals - do you suggest that i just let her do that because she obviously is really unhappy and in masses of pain?!!  No - its because she is a little uncomfortable about going away from home so i have to persuade her that its ok and she gets a bit pat when she does what i want.

Having said all that, I think the only chance of having a long term fix is to change something - either the horses motivation (through the reward of doing what is asked being bigger than not doing it) or perhaps a different rider who may not give away their feelings to the horse (this is not a criticism of you OP!).

Good luck OP


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## ellie_e (23 July 2013)

Supanova said:



			I can see both sides of the argument here, but i also feel a bit sorry for the OP.  She has simply asked about people's experience of using seadline whist riding because a professional has suggested it to her to try and solve an issue with this horse.  We have all jumped in, me included, and given her alterative advice on dealing with this issue.  

There are a number of people who are saying you should simply not be competing this horse and should just be a happy hacker, because he obviously doesn't enjoy it!  You know what if we all took this view on our life with horses then i think none of us would actually ride them at all - i very much doubt any horse enjoys being ridden for the first time.  I am sure that they are all anxious about going away from other horses.  However, we put them through it anyway.  People also seem to assume all horses enjoy hacking or doing a little bit of flatwork - i can tell you that my horse (and by the sound of it the OP's horse is the same) hates hacking and gets very bored just riding round in the arena at home!   

I hack my horse round the field and everytime we go to through the gate in to the next field she rears and spins because she wants to go home to her pals - do you suggest that i just let her do that because she obviously is really unhappy and in masses of pain?!!  No - its because she is a little uncomfortable about going away from home so i have to persuade her that its ok and she gets a bit pat when she does what i want.

Having said all that, I think the only chance of having a long term fix is to change something - either the horses motivation (through the reward of doing what is asked being bigger than not doing it) or perhaps a different rider who may not give away their feelings to the horse (this is not a criticism of you OP!).

Good luck OP
		
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No Supanova, I value your opinion, and a few others on here- Like I said in the first post, I wanted peoples experiences using it, good or bad, but I'm really not interested in those who think its immoral, or poor pony, I train with educated people who are at the top of their game, or who have been there/done it, I'm not talking your 'normal' instructors, they wouldnt of suggested it to me, if they didnt think it was a good idea. They know the horse and myself well, I was just looking for other peoples experiences on it, and yes its probably not the safest thing to-do, jump a drugged horse, but I'm not about to give him a whole tube of the stuff and jump 1.30!! However he is currently not safe while rearing, and its not small bunny hops, its vertical almost over backwards rearing, because hes a nappy bu**er!! I'm 99% positive hes not in pain, there maybe some strange memory to having sore legs from the past, but I'm hoping good experiences in the ring will mean he will forget about the past, I also believe he was probably pushed to much as a youngster, however I'm not asking him to-do it day in day out once every few months Is not difficult, I will try and get some video of him warming up this weekend, and then going into the ring (its a DR comp) to show what he can be like. Its not about going out and winning, I really dont care if he has every fence down, I want him to go into the ring, happily, trot/canter around, and come out. Like I said, hes a talented chap, who will not happily hack for the rest of his days, and costs to much to feed, and keep warm to be sat in a field growing old.


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## aimsymc (23 July 2013)

Supanova said:



			I can see both sides of the argument here, but i also feel a bit sorry for the OP.  She has simply asked about people's experience of using seadline whist riding because a professional has suggested it to her to try and solve an issue with this horse.  We have all jumped in, me included, and given her alterative advice on dealing with this issue.  

There are a number of people who are saying you should simply not be competing this horse and should just be a happy hacker, because he obviously doesn't enjoy it!  You know what if we all took this view on our life with horses then i think none of us would actually ride them at all - i very much doubt any horse enjoys being ridden for the first time.  I am sure that they are all anxious about going away from other horses.  However, we put them through it anyway.  People also seem to assume all horses enjoy hacking or doing a little bit of flatwork - i can tell you that my horse (and by the sound of it the OP's horse is the same) hates hacking and gets very bored just riding round in the arena at home!   

I hack my horse round the field and everytime we go to through the gate in to the next field she rears and spins because she wants to go home to her pals - do you suggest that i just let her do that because she obviously is really unhappy and in masses of pain?!!  No - its because she is a little uncomfortable about going away from home so i have to persuade her that its ok and she gets a bit pat when she does what i want.

Having said all that, I think the only chance of having a long term fix is to change something - either the horses motivation (through the reward of doing what is asked being bigger than not doing it) or perhaps a different rider who may not give away their feelings to the horse (this is not a criticism of you OP!).

Good luck OP
		
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Good post supernova!  
I agree about the change of rider, my friend is a dealer and the amount of trade ins people bring who are terrified of them is unbelievable! 99% of the time within a week or 2 with jockey change they are completely different well behaved horses. ( Not relating this to you op just musing).


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## Laafet (23 July 2013)

I used to compete T on sedalin as he was just as you described, only for dressage. It was not ideal but I hoped it would help him to get over his problem. Sadly whilst we could atleast get round safely it was clear that he was super talented but hated competing, so I sold him to a hunting home. FWIW racehorses, rightly or wrongly, are often ridden on ACP/Sedalin in town, not saying it is a good thing just that they are cantered on it etc.


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## ellie_e (23 July 2013)

aimsymc said:



			Good post supernova!  
I agree about the change of rider, my friend is a dealer and the amount of trade ins people bring who are terrified of them is unbelievable! 99% of the time within a week or 2 with jockey change they are completely different well behaved horses. ( Not relating this to you op just musing).
		
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If anyone is local to me, and feel they would like to crack him, I'm more than happy for people to come and try. My DR trainer who was the pro I sent him to has offered to compete him next time if hes badly behaved, but she doesnt jump, and I dont want to send him away again, as finding a pro that will understand and not beat him into submission is tricky, and also that will ride him- several well known names have turned him down as they are 'too valuable'


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## aimsymc (23 July 2013)

Op I hope that never came across like I think it'll be easy for someone else to fix Because I don't.  I actually think your brave for sticking at it so long! I'd have jacked it in long ago!


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## Supanova (23 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			No Supanova, I value your opinion, and a few others on here- Like I said in the first post, I wanted peoples experiences using it, good or bad, but I'm really not interested in those who think its immoral, or poor pony, I train with educated people who are at the top of their game, or who have been there/done it, I'm not talking your 'normal' instructors, they wouldnt of suggested it to me, if they didnt think it was a good idea. They know the horse and myself well, I was just looking for other peoples experiences on it, and yes its probably not the safest thing to-do, jump a drugged horse, but I'm not about to give him a whole tube of the stuff and jump 1.30!! However he is currently not safe while rearing, and its not small bunny hops, its vertical almost over backwards rearing, because hes a nappy bu**er!! I'm 99% positive hes not in pain, there maybe some strange memory to having sore legs from the past, but I'm hoping good experiences in the ring will mean he will forget about the past, I also believe he was probably pushed to much as a youngster, however I'm not asking him to-do it day in day out once every few months Is not difficult, I will try and get some video of him warming up this weekend, and then going into the ring (its a DR comp) to show what he can be like. Its not about going out and winning, I really dont care if he has every fence down, I want him to go into the ring, happily, trot/canter around, and come out. Like I said, hes a talented chap, who will not happily hack for the rest of his days, and costs to much to feed, and keep warm to be sat in a field growing old.
		
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Believe me i can understand your frustration.....  I think it would be great to see a video so will look forward to your next post.


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## ellie_e (23 July 2013)

Supanova said:



			Believe me i can understand your frustration.....  I think it would be great to see a video so will look forward to your next post.
		
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I will try, mother isnt the best with technology, and is normally riding herself, or dragging mine through the doors 
 This weekend however she is cheif groom, so will hand her the iphone and hope she can manage to point camera!


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## StoptheCavalry (23 July 2013)

Also people are telling you you shouldn't be doing it to compete him but you have also said he hates hacking and living out... So what is it everyone thinks you should do with him instead? Unless you are able to push him out of his comfort zone what really can be done? I have problems with mine because he has terrible separation anxiety and advice for me is repetition so force him to do something he doesn't want to do in the hope that eventually he will realise it is not so bad so he has to (eventually) be forced to hack alone, which he absolutely hates. While my horses behaviour is no where near the scale of yours unless you can do something to get him to even attempt to go in the ring how will you ever show him that it maybe isn't actually so bad. I have very sketchy experience of horses being given ACP and generally not for jumping work. But seems to me unless he's never going to be a pleasure horse because of his nature so if under slight sedation he would calmly enter the ring and have a positive experience perhaps the habitual behaviour would be broken. That said I have seen horses being sedated by vets that's adrenaline levels were so high nothing and I mean nothing worked. The vet in the end had to give up as anymore would have killed him so it may be that his adrenaline level spikes so high whilst entering the ring the sedaline has no effect


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## Ahrena (23 July 2013)

I just wanted to add to the competing thing. This isn't meant as an attack but I wanted to tell you my experience.

I have a pony who could of jumped for Britain, she's jumped the top of the wings without batting an eyelid.

One day she started napping and rearing. We spent years trying to get to the bottom of it, spent a fortune on vets, treatments ect. Many people told me she was fin, but i knew she wasn't. Eventually someone found a very bad muscle spasm in her neck, the worst this person had seen. We had it treated, and she was no different.

We sent her off for training with an IH person, (which we had done before but she was sent back after they fell off and broke their leg) and she improved a lo. She got to the point where she was unrideable. She wasn't fixed, but i could ride her.

It took another 3 years to get her to the point where I could hack, school and jump without her frequently napping and rearing. However I eventually had to decide to abandon the idea of competing. She still isn't 100% schooling and jumping at home. She finds it stressful and I dare say scary because of the physical problems.

Now she's sat in the field doing nothing. She has to be carefully managed or her behaviour goes downhill and she can be so dangerous i can"t risk selling or loaning.

It's crap, but she's happy doing the odd hack. She used to win every class she did - so bold, so careful and incredible against the clock,  but being in pain for a length of time ruined her.

If the horse doesn't enjoy it, what's the point?


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## sare_bear (23 July 2013)

I have known several people use sedalin on anxious / excited newbie hunters. It has helped the few I saw, adjust to the life of hunting. Would I have wanted to ride them? NO! With one or 2 their reflexes were just not quick to find that 5th leg. In your case, I would worry that the self preservation element of rearing and not going over backward, would no longer kick in?? So for the riders safely in this case, I would be careful. 

I do think your horse is insecure for a variety of reasons, eye included. Have you tried long reining your horse? Will he go out on his own long reining? Will he hack out with someone walking on the ground? I think that if you can crack the insecurities of going on his own, maybe in his home environment, it may help in still confidence to go it alone at shows? I had a nappy rearing mare that would not hack alone, but was ok in her safety zone of the school. I was loosing the will to live as she was bought to event, but would not go on her own. I was recommended taking horse to somewhere off road with plenty of time. I then asked the horse to walk on, when she started napping, rearing, I just sat there took the pressure off, if horse turned for home I would turn her back, then sit. First day I sat for 40 mins when she suddenly decided of her own accord to walk forward, as going back was not an option. This was now HER choice! Big pats and off we went. Did this every day for  week. Some days we sat for 10 mins, others an hour, but by end of the week she just gave in and went off hacking. After that I started changing the route. Every time I felt her worry, I would immediately back off, let her access the situation, then gently encourage her forward. This seemed to stop it getting to the rearing and spinning stage. To be fair after this, I had very little problem with her in the future. I know this does not solve the competing element, but I think if you both start to trust each other, it may help in a more pressurised situation of competing?

On the eye front, I think as discussed above, it is likely to be a part in the equation. Just a thought and others with more knowledge, may advise against, is it worth trying to put horse in a blinker on the side of the cataract? To see if reducing the light element etc improves his behaviour? Sorry, may be a silly idea.

Good luck with what ever you decide.


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## TarrSteps (23 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			If anyone is local to me, and feel they would like to crack him, I'm more than happy for people to come and try. My DR trainer who was the pro I sent him to has offered to compete him next time if hes badly behaved, but she doesnt jump, and I dont want to send him away again, as finding a pro that will understand and not beat him into submission is tricky, and also that will ride him- several well known names have turned him down as they are 'too valuable' 

Click to expand...

I completely understand your frustration but no one is going to be able to "fix" this horse in one or two go's, regardless of the cause(s) of his current state.  The behaviour has gone on too long and is too ingrained.  The one I referenced before with similar issues (except didn't rear, he flipped right over when asked to go into the ring) took literally years to sort, first with me doing all his "rehab" work and then with a competition pro who was willing to take him to the shows with them, first not competing, and then only going in the ring on the days he felt good. (And, for the record, they did use sedation initially, although not ACP and not when he was actually competing in recognised classes, to keep everyone safe.)  It was a long road!  For example, the first time I got him in the ring successfully we planned the day out with military precision and I had two people to help me.  It took us 45 min to get him the couple of hundred yards from the collecting ring to the show ring.  I was lucky enough to be able to manage the situation (I picked the show specifically, talked to the organisers beforehand etc. ) and the show was multi-day so we were able to keep at it over the weekend. And this was after doing all the work at home, going to clinics (one of which we were thrown out of ) and taking every precaution.  It was hardly a case of rocking up and taking a few shots at the problem.   

In his case owner was very well off and had bred the horse and made some of the initial bad decisions for him so was HIGHLY motivated to salvage at least something from the situation. Eventually it worked out that the horse went best in the lower amateur classes with a smaller female rider so the owner (who didn't ride) paid the bills for that.  That horse still makes me sad as he is to this day the most talented jumper I've ever sat on. There was no feeling like it.  And in his case he was okay initially and then some stuff happened and then he was not okay, so there had at least been the potential for it all to work out.  But c'est la vie, I know many horses with similar stories, from racehorses that cost a fortune as yearlings to dressage horses bred in the purple for the job, even to kids ponies.  All of them would have been superstars "except for" . . .

My general approach is "Never teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig."  But, as a few people have pointed out, that's tricky in a situation like this there are limited options for the horse.  I do a lot of loading work and sometimes horses can be quite violent in their objections.  Too bad.  You can't be a horse in the modern age and not travel, it places too many limitations.  Ditto, leading well and other basic skills.  After that, there is some wriggle room - not every horse is going to be a good hack or a successful showjumper, no matter how hard someone works at it and I think there is a point where it's unfair to keep pushing.  But in actual fact we "force" most horses to do things at different times.  I can almost guarantee any horse that comes out of racing knows a bit about force and the subsequent owners actually benefit from that knowledge as it means they never have to have the conversation.

Sometimes desperate times do respond to desperate measures.  As people have mentioned, there are lots of horses that have had to be "convinced" to do a job and then done it willingly and successfully.  I've just this week encouraged someone to send a horse off to a specialist trainer with excellent facilities, not because I am incapable of working with the horse, but because he is better positioned to give the horse what it needs right now for the best outcome.  It's not about me and what I want, it's not even about what the owner wants.  It is a (sad) fact of life that horses are "worth" more if they do a job and it behooves us to try and help them find a job they can do.  I'm not sure the OP's horse WILL be able to do the job she wants but I can understand the motivation to try.


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## Mickyjoe (23 July 2013)

Wise words Tarrsteps. :nod:


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## Perfect_Pirouette (23 July 2013)

God, I'd forgotton just how judgemental the HHO forum can be!!

OP- I hope you find a solution, there is nothing wrong with you wanting to compete your horse, like someone else has said, if we never made horses do things they didn't want to do then they'd never do anything but stand about eating. I think if it is sheer nappiness/ obstinacy  and you can be sure not physical then I too would try and find a way through it, however long it took.

That said, personally I'm not sure I'd want to jump on ACP/Sedalin. I would also be looking to really sort out his insecurity issues as it sounds like this is where it all stems from. Perhaps by starting slowly to introduce hacking alone and build up from there or send him back to the dressage pro and get him comfortable doing dressage again, with you as well as the pro and then move onto jumping?

ETA- I am not fluffy bunny either but if you have tried everything else I think an AC could be worth a try.


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## Blythe Spirit (23 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			Completly agree PM, he is insecure, will NH help this?
		
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Personally I think it could be of great help if you get the right person - yes many of these people will ride your horse for you. And you will be left with some new ideas to try - perhaps taking a different line to the things you have tried. I used Michael Peace to help me with a nappy mare I had (probably a sledge hammer to crack a nut in a way but I nipped the problem in the bud) I recommend him highly. From what you say in this thread i think his approach would suit you. Its business like and not what you would really think of as "alternative" in other words there is no carrot stick or extra bits and pieces you need to do it. Its just good psychology, good reading of the horse and the situation and straight forward fair calm and skilled riding.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (23 July 2013)

some of you are being seriously judgmental and overly dramatic!

how many times i have been told that CS "must" be in pain, or that im pushing him too hard, and how many times have i subsequently been ripped to shreds for sticking to my guns and carrying on MY path.........

dont get me wrong, ive recieved some very good, helpful advice from lovely people, but a lot of abuse also and many of the biggest changes have come off the back of people closest to the horse, like NMT and NOT from the naysayers on here. Trust your instincts and dont be swayed by the internet drama llama!

There are certain people who will love to tell you everything you are doing wrong and then when THEY turn out to be incorrect, are somehow incapable of saying sorry.


OP my advice is to try and find out what routine the pro had the horse in, down to rugs feed, tack, turnout time etc and try and replicate it, start from there and experiment. is he better on certain feeds or in certain tack even if it goes against *science*, is he better under or over rugged. is he better stabled 24/7 or out 24/7 or a mix.

the one thing i would say is that scoping doesnt show hind gut ulcers, so would reccomend Egusin SLH ,see if that helps at all. 

Keep a diary, try and put all the little improvemnts together to build a pic of what he wants from you.


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## Goldenstar (23 July 2013)

I have ridden a horse on sedalin after box rest I did not enjoy it at all , my fear would be that you could get a sudden enormous explosion with disastrous consequences .
The one I had who showed similar behaviour was going progressively blind when we teased it out he was happy to jump at home but became unable to cope in strange surroundings .
I don't how I would try to progress if I where you I think I would give up probally because I am old now and just could not be bothered.
I do hope you find a way though good luck and stay safe.


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## ellie_e (23 July 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			some of you are being seriously judgmental and overly dramatic!

how many times i have been told that CS "must" be in pain, or that im pushing him too hard, and how many times have i subsequently been ripped to shreds for sticking to my guns and carrying on MY path.........

dont get me wrong, ive recieved some very good, helpful advice from lovely people, but a lot of abuse also and many of the biggest changes have come off the back of people closest to the horse, like NMT and NOT from the naysayers on here. Trust your instincts and dont be swayed by the internet drama llama!

There are certain people who will love to tell you everything you are doing wrong and then when THEY turn out to be incorrect, are somehow incapable of saying sorry.


OP my advice is to try and find out what routine the pro had the horse in, down to rugs feed, tack, turnout time etc and try and replicate it, start from there and experiment. is he better on certain feeds or in certain tack even if it goes against *science*, is he better under or over rugged. is he better stabled 24/7 or out 24/7 or a mix.

the one thing i would say is that scoping doesnt show hind gut ulcers, so would reccomend Egusin SLH ,see if that helps at all. 

Keep a diary, try and put all the little improvemnts together to build a pic of what he wants from you.
		
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Thanks PS- I must admit, I did think of you, in the video you posted a few weeks back, half way through a test he reared. Glad its not just mine!!

 Will speak to the pro who he stayed with for a while, she trains me, and is very understanding, plus she like horse, which helps! 
Routine wise, he would of been turned out for a few hours on individual paddocks, then stabled for the rest, I dont have that facility where we are saddly 
Feed wise, hes the same as I took his own for her, rugs again took his own, but it was warm so didnt really wear anything in the stable other than his sheet.
She has however said to try him on Piriton, she has used it on a Stallion that was mad, I know its not legal, but would at least like to try and break the cycle as currently hes winning.
What exaclty are the hind ulcer supplements??? Worth a try, like I keep saying, this is not an ideal situation, and if there was something else to try, I would, so happy to give it a try!
 Also for the person who asked about him hacking with someone on the ground, he still stops and rears, but mum can normall get hold of his bridle and drag him past whatever hes pretending to spook at. Ive walked him in hand several times down the lane, he back off alittle, but happy enough just looses the confidence with someone on top.


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## weebarney (23 July 2013)

I can totally relate to your problem. I have an amazing ex racer who came to me with many problems including wouldn't hack out alone, I sent him to get reschooled and he came back loads better, however competitions are and always have been massively stressful for him, he enjoys it and always performs well when in the ring but in the warm up arena he would rear and buck and nap terribly when you tried to get him into the ring. He had so much talent and have me such a brilliant feeling when he was going well. I took him for a group jumping lesson with a pro and he spent at least half the lesson going up or backwards and the other half like a fantastic schoolmaster. Very frustrating. Some days he would stand like a dobbin and others he'd be vertical 75% of the day. I think with a better rider and more consistent work he could have been a nice eventer, but now he just lives a life of leisure as it was just too dangerous to have him behave the way he does. I could have sent him for more schooling but i decided to cut my losses. 
If I were you I'd let a professional take him on for a bit and get him to shows to see what happens. It doesn't have to cost a fortune either I used to pay 80 a week for schooling livery.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (23 July 2013)

CS is on Egusin SLH-he did the full dose for 2 weeks, then a half dose and is now on 1/4 dose and will stay on that. Its relatively expensive @ £80 for 2 weeks, but if you can get it down to 1/4 dose not too bad in the grand scheme of horse owning!!!!!

maybe knock hacking on the head for a bit-i havent hacked CS for 2 years ish, and it made a huge improvement to his behaviour at shows. Now we have the show part under control ive started pottering round the block again in the last 2 weeks,and he is 500% better, having cemented our relationship/agreement in the arena (he prefers schooling to hacking) he is now happier to go for short hacks. I dont think people understand that aspect of a true competition horse, CS didnt want to hack, didnt want to do *fun* stuff, he wanted to do serious work! So we went with that and now maybe he is ready to hack a little.

is there no way he can stay in more? is there anyone you could pay to bring him in earlier or to skip/hay him at lunch them just lob himout for a couple of hours later one etc? can your mum help out with that at all? anything to get him in a structured routine that HE enjoys.


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## ellie_e (23 July 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			CS is on Egusin SLH-he did the full dose for 2 weeks, then a half dose and is now on 1/4 dose and will stay on that. Its relatively expensive @ £80 for 2 weeks, but if you can get it down to 1/4 dose not too bad in the grand scheme of horse owning!!!!!

maybe knock hacking on the head for a bit-i havent hacked CS for 2 years ish, and it made a huge improvement to his behaviour at shows. Now we have the show part under control ive started pottering round the block again in the last 2 weeks,and he is 500% better, having cemented our relationship/agreement in the arena (he prefers schooling to hacking) he is now happier to go for short hacks. I dont think people understand that aspect of a true competition horse, CS didnt want to hack, didnt want to do *fun* stuff, he wanted to do serious work! So we went with that and now maybe he is ready to hack a little.

is there no way he can stay in more? is there anyone you could pay to bring him in earlier or to skip/hay him at lunch them just lob himout for a couple of hours later one etc? can your mum help out with that at all? anything to get him in a structured routine that HE enjoys.
		
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In an ideal world I would like him out from 10-2ish but were on a DIY type set up, and mum works part time aswell. He does seem to enjoy his jumping, rarely stops, ears forward etc, but the napping/leaving others gets the better of him. Trainer on Saturday did say once Ive broken the cycle and getting him in the ring I need to step up a level as hes not really trying at the level we are 'trying' to compete at, which I can see the logic, if hes bored, why would he want to do it etc, but Im then nervous of going up to 1.10/1.15 level if hes being a tit, as atleast over BN he can trot around if needs be.
 Ive stepped up his work in the school as now trying to compete at Elem, so maybe that might improve things.
Going to see what happens on the weekend, and then sit down and work out a plan.


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## TarrSteps (23 July 2013)

OP, quite a few of your posts make it clear you believe this horse is behaving this way just to annoy you/because he is naturally unwilling - just in your last post 'he's winning' and 'pretending to spook'. If this is the case, why the reluctance put someone on who is going to be tough on him? If you honestly believe it's simply that he's got your number then you need to find someone to get his and teach you to do likewise.


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## ellie_e (23 July 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			OP, quite a few of your posts make it clear you believe this horse is behaving this way just to annoy you/because he is naturally unwilling - just in your last post 'he's winning' and 'pretending to spook'. If this is the case, why the reluctance put someone on who is going to be tough on him? If you honestly believe it's simply that he's got your number then you need to find someone to get his and teach you to do likewise.
		
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He puts in as little effort to get the job done, hes not a trier, or something that wants to please. 
 Likewise, I do feel hes had abit of a bad start, and dont want someone beating the cr*p out of him to make him do what they want either. His demeanour changes when hes left the others, lip purse, high head carriage, calls, sweats etc etc, so although I think he does try his luck most of the time, he does have some separation issue, I just want him to chill out slightly, realise that it wont hurt him, and what im asking him todo is ok, then he can go back on the lorry and eat- which is what makes him most happy!!


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## The wife (23 July 2013)

Oh OP, I do feel sorry for you.  So very frustrating for you to have such a talented sounding animal and no job for him.  I personally wouldn't attempt jumping on Sedalin.  As somebody else has said, it affects the heart rate and I'm not sure that I'd risk over exerting an animal that is not firing on all 5 cyclinders.  

Just a little bit of lateral thinking...  Does he or would you consider hunting him? (Haven't read all the replies, so apologies if its already been mentioned)  I'm just thinking that perhaps a complete change of scenery, with no pressure, where he can jump and go forward and think for himself abit may just give him a little more confidence.


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## TarrSteps (23 July 2013)

I think that's a lot of thinking to expect from a horse. 

I don't know how we got from being firm to beating but as I said, we all have different standards. 

It's not unheard of to fix whatever is bothering a horse and then still have to be quite clear about the new rules. We use a lot of negative reinforcement in training and one of the real problems with riding horses with problems is that can train the horse into undesirable behaviours. That then requires retraining. Even sedation won't fix a situation, it's merely something some people use to facilitate training.


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## ellie_e (23 July 2013)

The wife said:



			Just a little bit of lateral thinking...  Does he or would you consider hunting him? (Haven't read all the replies, so apologies if its already been mentioned)  I'm just thinking that perhaps a complete change of scenery, with no pressure, where he can jump and go forward and think for himself abit may just give him a little more confidence.
		
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I have thought about it yes- but have never taken him, I dont hunt myself, and dont know anybody that does, that would be willing to take him, although I think its an idea that could be useful, although the hounds and coming and going would drive him crazy, when XC schooling, we generally have to go first or second, and once we've done our thing, drop reins and let him eat to keep him quiet with 4legs on the floor.


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## The wife (23 July 2013)

aimsymc said:



			Good post supernova!  
I agree about the change of rider, my friend is a dealer and the amount of trade ins people bring who are terrified of them is unbelievable! 99% of the time within a week or 2 with jockey change they are completely different well behaved horses. ( Not relating this to you op just musing).
		
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We see this a lot too.  We've had some described as absolute terrors prior visiting us.  We've had 3 in the last couple of months who have broken limbs, torn ligaments etc of their owners and previous trainers and yet within a few weeks are fairly trainable, amenable animals and have continued to be so since they left.  One in particular had broken its owners arm tanking to the field, he is now happily working in a riding school behaving perfectly.  Another was a renowned rearer, who was badly broken in initially and just needed some guidance.  Sometimes a complete change of environment, jockey and methods is all that is needed.


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## The wife (23 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			I have thought about it yes- but have never taken him, I dont hunt myself, and dont know anybody that does, that would be willing to take him, although I think its an idea that could be useful, although the hounds and coming and going would drive him crazy, when XC schooling, we generally have to go first or second, and once we've done our thing, drop reins and let him eat to keep him quiet with 4legs on the floor.
		
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Phone your local hunt and start hound exercise to at least get him used to seeing hounds, building up to cubbing.  chances are he'll be perfect the first time and will be a nightmare for the following few sessions afterwards but persevere with it.

I do wish you the best of luck OP but he sounds like he has some serious deep-seated issues but very well done for sticking with him and for your dignity after some not very nice comments.


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## aimsymc (23 July 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			CS is on Egusin SLH-he did the full dose for 2 weeks, then a half dose and is now on 1/4 dose and will stay on that. Its relatively expensive @ £80 for 2 weeks, but if you can get it down to 1/4 dose not too bad in the grand scheme of horse owning!!!!!

maybe knock hacking on the head for a bit-i havent hacked CS for 2 years ish, and it made a huge improvement to his behaviour at shows. Now we have the show part under control ive started pottering round the block again in the last 2 weeks,and he is 500% better, having cemented our relationship/agreement in the arena (he prefers schooling to hacking) he is now happier to go for short hacks. I dont think people understand that aspect of a true competition horse, CS didnt want to hack, didnt want to do *fun* stuff, he wanted to do serious work! So we went with that and now maybe he is ready to hack a little.

is there no way he can stay in more? is there anyone you could pay to bring him in earlier or to skip/hay him at lunch them just lob himout for a couple of hours later one etc? can your mum help out with that at all? anything to get him in a structured routine that HE enjoys.
		
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Just to clarify, what would you class as a "true" competition horse?  I know many I would consider serious horses and they all hack out perfectly well. The fact a horse is a "competition" horse has absolutely no bearing on wether it'll hack or not!


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## little_flea (23 July 2013)

aimsymc said:



			Just to clarify, what would you class as a "true" competition horse?  I know many I would consider serious horses and they all hack out perfectly well. The fact a horse is a "competition" horse has absolutely no bearing on wether it'll hack or not!
		
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I know many serious competition horses who do not enjoy hacking (and many that do) - I think performance bred animals can be highly strung and less equipped to deal with traffic etc and these problems are exaggerated with high levels of fitness, they are animals who are used to hard work and sometimes likely to get silly (and potentially dangerous) if mind/body is not stimulated enough. In my opinion a horse only needs to hack if that is the job its owner wants it to do. Sure, you can probably desensitise them if it is hugely important that they do hack but personally I don't see why you would go through the fight and the risk if hacking is not the main pursuit.


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## aimsymc (23 July 2013)

little_flea said:



			I know many serious competition horses who do not enjoy hacking (and many that do) - I think performance bred animals can be highly strung and less equipped to deal with traffic etc and these problems are exaggerated with high levels of fitness, they are animals who are used to hard work and sometimes likely to get silly (and potentially dangerous) if mind/body is not stimulated enough. In my opinion a horse only needs to hack if that is the job its owner wants it to do. Sure, you can probably desensitise them if it is hugely important that they do hack but personally I don't see why you would go through the fight and the risk if hacking is not the main pursuit.
		
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We'll have to agree to disagree on that one little flea.  I often find its the horses in no work that **** about the most. And I think most if not all eventers would say that hacking is an important part of getting horses fit. Infact event yard I worked on horses were hacked daily alongside other school work. Sorry getting a bit of track here op!


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## kerilli (23 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			He puts in as little effort to get the job done, hes not a trier, or something that wants to please. 
 Likewise, I do feel hes had abit of a bad start, and dont want someone beating the cr*p out of him to make him do what they want either. His demeanour changes when hes left the others, lip purse, high head carriage, calls, sweats etc etc, so although I think he does try his luck most of the time, he does have some separation issue, I just want him to chill out slightly, realise that it wont hurt him, and what im asking him todo is ok, then he can go back on the lorry and eat- which is what makes him most happy!!
		
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If he's not going crazy or killing you then he's willing to please...  
Sorry, but it sounds as if you have a bit of a downer on this horse. I can totally understand if you are frustrated, if he won't even do the little things (I know that feeling, exactly, believe me) but he is NOT ever doing it just to thwart you... he has his reasons, even if they are unknown at present. 

I really don't see why/how "Pro" in your eyes seems to equate exactly with "will beat the cr*p out of him". Pros are pros because they are brilliant at getting horses to do what they want to do, again and again - usually through calm repetition, praise, good technique, experience, and guile. That's how they build/keep confidence and the horses keep doing what the rider wants when the questions get huge...  
The number of Pros who would resort to beating a horse who is nervous and frightened (as yours sounds) is imho vanishingly small. 
There is a GULF between 'totally determined to convince the horse to do as you want' (if that's what it needs at that moment) and 'beating the cr*p out of it'.

I can't face going back through all these pages, sorry, but what's the story with the cataracts? 
If he has them, this is a HUGE deal. 
He's a prey animal, his eyes are his biggest asset in the 'am i going to survive today' stakes, and he can't trust them... and nor can you!
Fwiw I retired my best ever horse, who was 100% sound and going brilliantly (just gone DC at OI, entered up for Advanced), on the spot when cataracts were diagnosed (after some out-of-character but not dangerous behaviour.) A horse who cannot believe his/her eyes is a VERY dodgy proposition. I would want a vet to tell me exactly what is going on there, if they can.

You won't get this sorted in 5 minutes, if you can at all, but I'm sure you know that. ANY good Pro will know that too - it's not a case of climbing aboard, bashing it to make it do x, and then saying 'great, it did as it was told, it's cured, you'll never have another problem." This will take the right person, the right management, the right facilities, and lots of time and patience, to get results, and even then those results might not be as good as you want.
I wouldn't discount an AC (as previously mentioned on the thread), I have been desperate enough to use them too and have gotten useful answers and made safe progress because of it.

Very best of luck with him.


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## DabDab (23 July 2013)

aimsymc said:



			Just to clarify, what would you class as a "true" competition horse?  I know many I would consider serious horses and they all hack out perfectly well. The fact a horse is a "competition" horse has absolutely no bearing on wether it'll hack or not!
		
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Yes quite. OP, you sound like you've got to a point with this horse where you just don't really know what to think anymore, in terms of either his motivations or where to go next, and I can imagine how frustrating that must be. Just a thought - have you ever trained your horse in a non competitive environment when you've walked him into a school or a ring away from others stood at the gate/around the arena and had the same reaction. If you could set up that sort or training situation it might give you more time to work through it without being in a ring with people staring.


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## little_flea (23 July 2013)

aimsymc said:



			We'll have to agree to disagree on that one little flea.  I often find its the horses in no work that **** about the most. And I think most if not all eventers would say that hacking is an important part of getting horses fit. Infact event yard I worked on horses were hacked daily alongside other school work. Sorry getting a bit of track here op!
		
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Well if it is important that the (event) horse in question hacks, then it is of course crucial that it does so safely and willingly, not arguing that! Just saying that it is not necessarily crucial for every horse to hack just for the sake of it, or for the sake of down-time. Nice if they can, sure - I just don't get the obsession that a Grand Prix competition horse should also be able to safely trot round the M25! Sorry for side tracking!


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## Wheels (23 July 2013)

I think the difference here is little flea that the horse in question freaks going into a comp and freaks out hacking too. People are suggesting the op hacks the horse to get him used to leaving others and to improve his confidence, using it as a training tool rather than to hack for the sake of it. If a GP horse doesn't hack then that's up to their owner / rider and I do agree that some comp horses just aren't ever going to make happy hackers but this horse isn't a gp horse because he is too inconsistent so what is wrong with hacking out to try and improve his confidence? One day he may indeed reach a good level of competition but at the moment this isn't happening. 

It appears that the op has tried lots of different things to try and get over this problem but has not really been able to overcome the problem, a different approach is required IMO and whether I think using Sedalin to compete is right or wrong in this case doesn't matter, I actually don't think it will work or help


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## TarrSteps (23 July 2013)

Murphy himself famously didn't hack and he was an okay event horse.

It really is horses for courses. if you have a successful, valuable competition horse that doesn't hack safely and you're not particularly bothered, why would you take the risk? Many horses do not 'enjoy' hacking. If it's in their required job description then they need to suck it up (or find a new situation) but otherwise it's not essential. It depends what you mean by hacking, too. A private road on an estate, or quiet village or a forest trail is a long way from straight out onto a 60 zone in Surrey.

I think there might be something to getting this particular horse hacking as it seems to touch on the same issues and is something that could be worked on at home in the owner's own time. But if it's too dangerous then no good is being done.


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## aimsymc (23 July 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Murphy himself famously didn't hack and he was an okay event horse.


Yeah there are always exceptions to the rule! 
I Still stick by that most good comp horses will hack out to fitten up or relax, and I don't mean along the m25! Of course there are horses who don't hack and people who don't like too but I don't feel its anything to do with being a comp horse or not. Ok will **** up now lol 

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## DabDab (23 July 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			I dont think people understand that aspect of a true competition horse,
		
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This comment, whether it was intended or not, does read as if no 'true competition horse' would want to hack and I think it was that point was being disagreed with. I don't think the implication was that all competition horses _should_ hack.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (23 July 2013)

I didn't mean it like that at all actually, my bad......what I meant was that SOME horses are very very competition/ show/ schooling minded, they live to show off and have almost tunnel vision where anything not *proper* work is pointless to the point of being quite ADHD when not doing that sort of work, eg my own CS. Tbh I know more dressage horses that don't hack we'll, than those that do, but that's another conversation and not what I meant here.

Personally I don't think hacking will help at this point in time.

My gut says the OPhas just not yet found the key, somedays she's close but others not quite so....and that's no criticism as I've been there myself.
Fiddle with tack, rugs, feed, routine. BEG or pay someone who works diff hours to bring him in earlier etc. with CS the tiniest things make such a diff, if his noseband or throat lash are 1 hole out he won't settle, if the saddle isn't just so he won't go, if he's cold or damp he's not happy at all.
I really would try egusin, and maybe a scoop of chaff prior to riding to try and rule out a sore tum.


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## Kokopelli (23 July 2013)

Have to say I agree with PS these sensitive horses are ridiculous and even the smallest change can upset them. 

I know of a mare that sounds very similar to yours, rears/ bucks/ plunges and naps for England but jumps 1.40m with her eyes shut. Loads of riders tried including various top class pros and she was written off as dangerous which in all honesty she was with the wrong rider. Eventually someone came along who just clicked with her, firm enough to get her going but not too firm she got in a stress. She is now competing in 1.30m opens and consistently being placed ready to move up a level. She thrives on routine isn't fed much and stabled 24/7 as is worse with turnout. She doesn't hack alone or in company and she's fine with that. However, you put a different rider on her and you wouldn't even get her over a cross pole. Horses for courses. 

It sounds harsh OP but is this really the horse you want? Or do you think with some professional help he could be? By the sounds of it you want to get out and compete and have fun (I don't blame you) is there any chance you could compete something else like a friends horse to take the pressure off a bit so you can work with his issues?


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## DabDab (23 July 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			I didn't mean it like that at all actually, my bad......what I meant was that SOME horses are very very competition/ show/ schooling minded, they live to show off and have almost tunnel vision where anything not *proper* work is pointless to the point of being quite ADHD when not doing that sort of work, eg my own CS. Tbh I know more dressage horses that don't hack we'll, than those that do, but that's another conversation and not what I meant here.

Personally I don't think hacking will help at this point in time.

My gut says the OPhas just not yet found the key, somedays she's close but others not quite so....and that's no criticism as I've been there myself.
Fiddle with tack, rugs, feed, routine. BEG or pay someone who works diff hours to bring him in earlier etc. with CS the tiniest things make such a diff, if his noseband or throat lash are 1 hole out he won't settle, if the saddle isn't just so he won't go, if he's cold or damp he's not happy at all.
I really would try egusin, and maybe a scoop of chaff prior to riding to try and rule out a sore tum.
		
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No, when I reread it I thought you probably didn't mean it like that, ah well, that's the written word for you. I do tend to agree with you - often getting the management of a difficult horse as right as it possibly can be (in terms of being very well tailored to their whims) can give you that 'in' you need to begin to work through their problems. I think there might also be clues to be found in the dressage rider's training routine with the horse that seemed to work well.


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## ellie_e (23 July 2013)

He won't be going anywhere, he is not for sale, and I will not be throwing the towel in. A horse won't go well in lessons/ at home, in a collecting ring, then suddenly it's the rider fault as he's napping. If he went awfully most of the time, I could agree that we didn't click, I've had this problem with a horse, who my mother now owns, she loves him and to this day 10years later I still don't get him. This is a completely different situation.


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## TarrSteps (23 July 2013)

Valid points Kokopelli. Shutterfly, Salinero, Promised Land. . .the world is full of very successful athletes that just aren't very much fun. MOST top horses are not like that - a few are virtual beach donkeys - and it's even more important to not make the common mistake that just because a horse is difficult it must be 'good' - but there is definitely a subset. I know jumpers that don't get ridden between shows. Even I've had an event horse that always stood up in the box, a working hunter that couldn't warm up and a selection of other horses we let be so long as they did the job. Although I might add they DID do the job. This horse might be one of these, he might not. Odds are more likely he isn't but you never know. . .


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## ellie_e (23 July 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Valid points Kokopelli. Shutterfly, Salinero, Promised Land. . .the world is full of very successful athletes that just aren't very much fun. MOST top horses are not like that - a few are virtual beach donkeys - and it's even more important to not make the common mistake that just because a horse is difficult it must be 'good' - but there is definitely a subset. I know jumpers that don't get ridden between shows. Even I've had an event horse that always stood up in the box, a working hunter that couldn't warm up and a selection of other horses we let be so long as they did the job. Although I might add they DID do the job. This horse might be one of these, he might not. Odds are more likely he isn't but you never know. . .
		
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Funny you say this- when we competed in the area team sj, it was outdoors, and I did hardly any warm up, walked around the lorry park, had a little canter, as if I would while hacking, then popped 1 fence and came out, let him stand and graze, and took him straight in and cantered around the field before the first test. Maybe coincidence?


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## Kokopelli (23 July 2013)

That is a very similar warm up routine I did with Andy. We would hack out or mooch around the lorry park, have a trot or canter and pop a tiny fence then jump our round. This was to stop him boiling over though as he was a bit of a nutter when it came to jumping. It really is just finding what clicks for your horse. I wasn't suggesting throwing the towel in before, but sometimes you have just got to ask yourself are you enjoying it?


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## ellie_e (23 July 2013)

Kokopelli said:



			That is a very similar warm up routine I did with Andy. We would hack out or mooch around the lorry park, have a trot or canter and pop a tiny fence then jump our round. This was to stop him boiling over though as he was a bit of a nutter when it came to jumping. It really is just finding what clicks for your horse. I wasn't suggesting throwing the towel in before, but sometimes you have just got to ask yourself are you enjoying it?
		
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YES completely enjoy him, I get frustrated when he won't go in and show what he can do, but every time I sit on him I learn something and smile. He's been past around and have had so many comments like ' you should sell him and get something that can do it' I don't know why you put up with it, blah blah blah, I put up with it because I want to be challenged and wouldn't enjoy riding a 'normal' horse. I just wish I had the answer with this one, I think maybe the warm up could be key, or lack of shall we say!


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## TarrSteps (23 July 2013)

For the record I did not say it's your FAULT and I'm sorry if that's how you took it. My only point was that there are horses in the world who are an awful lot of trouble and not everyone is in a position to deal with them the way they need to be dealt with. 

Which is moot because, as you say, you have no intention of selling. The compromise is you may have to adapt much of your program to suit him and resign yourself to putting up with a lot of ****.


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## ellie_e (23 July 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			For the record I did not say it's your FAULT and I'm sorry if that's how you took it. My only point was that there are horses in the world who are an awful lot of trouble and not everyone is in a position to deal with them the way they need to be dealt with. 

Which is moot because, as you say, you have no intention of selling. The compromise is you may have to adapt much of your program to suit him and resign yourself to putting up with a lot of ****.
		
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Oh god yes we do and have put up with a lot, but to be honest, seeing his face over the stable every morning is totally worth it! And hopefully one day, he will be more consistant with his competing, he's come a long way from what I bought, a weedy, skinny, nutty 6yr old who was scared of his shadow, and would throw you off as soon as you sat on him. We just need this extra push to get there.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (23 July 2013)

Sounds worth twiddling with warm up, doing virtually nothing bar a quick canter round.
Peopled we got fig off had a grade B they couldn't sit on in between shows, went on the walker, lunged and loose jumped,and at shows they hand walk for 20 mins, leg jockey up on the move, straight in to canter, over 2 or 3 fences and straight in the ring. Very successful but very tricky horse.


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## ellie_e (23 July 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Sounds worth twiddling with warm up, doing virtually nothing bar a quick canter round.
Peopled we got fig off had a grade B they couldn't sit on in between shows, went on the walker, lunged and loose jumped,and at shows they hand walk for 20 mins, leg jockey up on the move, straight in to canter, over 2 or 3 fences and straight in the ring. Very successful but very tricky horse.
		
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Agree, think on Saturday I will just walk him around, and take him straight into test, it's better to get in and through a whole test knowing marks will be effective due to lack of warm up than getting eliminated!


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## weebarney (23 July 2013)

Ooh I just remembered a little tip, after warming up don't sit on your horse outside the competition arena while waiting. I find that is the point the horse plants his feet and says, 'I'm not going in there!'. Keep moving around and get someone to have a word with a steward so you can just ride straight from collecting ring into the competition without having to hang around.


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## siennamum (23 July 2013)

You sound a bit like me with my gelding OP. I just love riding him, even though he is inconsistent and argumentative. Mine has a physical reason for some of his behaviour, but also like yours he learned to rear prior to me getting him.
I think once they realise that being on their back legs leaves the rider with no control and that threatening to rear can mean you take some of the pressure off - they will always have that in their arsenal if they don't want to work.
They may be insecure, but it's a vicious circle and you could get him confident and submissive one day and then something will trigger the napping and by intimidating his rider he will reinforce his own insecurity.

It's a huge effort IMO and sometimes I can't be bothered to get into a fight, so you really have my sympathy.
I am going to try and hunt mine this Winter, so will see how that goes. 
Mine isn't stressed so wouldn't sedate him, he needs a rocket up the bum rather than sedating. I do find with it tho that a horse can fight off a couple of tubes if it is a bit anxious so a tiny bit is surely not going to make them zombielike.


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## ellie_e (23 July 2013)

weebarney said:



			Ooh I just remembered a little tip, after warming up don't sit on your horse outside the competition arena while waiting. I find that is the point the horse plants his feet and says, 'I'm not going in there!'. Keep moving around and get someone to have a word with a steward so you can just ride straight from collecting ring into the competition without having to hang around.
		
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Thanks for this, have tried something similar but there's always people hanging around the entrance- which really doesn't help, if the door was completely clear we would of perhaps had more success. Trying to get him to canter through without spinning around is a must- he previous trick when we first bought him was to whip around, fast! Doesn't do it as much these days- prefers being on two legs!


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## tankgirl1 (24 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			Please bear with me on this post...it may seem like I am attacking you but I am not, I promise...I fully empathise with your situation, but I would like to ask you to take a step back and see things for what they are, not what you may think they are.

To compare any horse or any injury or illness with another is something that should never be done if you have your horses best interests at heart. You can't say you "get" something and then come straight back with an example of how another horse has done something. That other horse does not have your horses issue, it has its own issue and the two, whilst similar medically, could be completely different as perceived by the individual horse. You can have two horses that have to have an eye removed. One may go on to compete in the Olympics, the other may be completely unable to adjust and cope and need to be PTS. Neither should be compared to the other.

Be honest with yourself Ellie. Have you ever had someone at home have a cold or throat infection and be ill....only for you to get the same bug a week later. That person thinks you should be able to do x,y or z because they could, but you know you've got it worse and you know you can't do those things. One size does not fit all...we are not clones and neither are our horses. 

Not having an eye at all may even be better....how can perception change when there is no input at all. At the moment, your horses perception could be based on how the cataract is affecting him day to day or hour to hour. It can be determined by light and dark, it can be determined by the humidity level dictating how moist the eye is and how able to function it is. Take away the constant changing of perception due to outside stimulus like light and moisture and things could settle down.

Am I advising you to have your horses eye removed? No. I am just saying when do you stop? You're considering sedation to get the horse to compete. Would you consider removal of an eye to do the same? If the answer is no, which I really hope it would be, then maybe just accept that this horses lot in life is to have fun at home on his good days and be left to just be happy doing nothing on his bad days. 

As for the warm up. It is perfectly understandable that he was comfortable in the warm up. No stress, just working away with other things going on, nice and relaxed. Steward comes over, then you get ready to go to the ring...whether you are aware of it or not, your heart rate will rise in anticipation and he will, after the time you have been doing this, realise where you are about to go. Why should he wait until you get there if it's perceived by him to be a bad day. He'll just want to stay in his little warm up comfort zone. 

As I said, I am not having a go. I can see that you are wanting to be more understanding but I can't shake the feeling that you just want it to work. You want to be able to compete and you want to do it on this horse. Just because you want it though doesn't mean it is going to be possible. Every time you put him in this situation, you are causing him distress. Do you want that? Is that what horse ownership is about for you?

He isn't telling you he can't do it. He's just telling you he can't do it on certain days or at certain times. No competition should be more important than the welfare of your horse. I just don't think anyone has the right to make an animal do something it doesn't want to do for such materialistic gain. It's not stress for the sake of saving his life or getting him into a safe place or out of danger. It is not stress for the sake of ensuring safety. It is stress so that you can go around a course of jumps at a competition. Really think about that and decide if you can be happy with putting your horse through that stress just for your own whim.
		
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I haven't yet read through the whole thread. I got to here, and just had to say well said GG, great advice for the OP x


And yes we need a like button - it really helps sort the wheat from the chaff on MSE, I am sure it would do the same here


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## mandwhy (24 July 2013)

This might be a daft suggestion and I'm sure it won't be your cup of tea, but have you done any showing? In hand might be the least stressful way of getting him into some sort of ring and getting out with little effort as long as you can handle him in that situation, and if doing ridden showing he would mostly have other horses around or in the ring with him? 

Good luck, I hope you can work through it


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## ellie_e (24 July 2013)

mandwhy said:



			This might be a daft suggestion and I'm sure it won't be your cup of tea, but have you done any showing? In hand might be the least stressful way of getting him into some sort of ring and getting out with little effort as long as you can handle him in that situation, and if doing ridden showing he would mostly have other horses around or in the ring with him? 

Good luck, I hope you can work through it 

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I've never done any showing, but he has pretty bad scars on hind leg always thought the had to be clean limbed???


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## Ponytrecca (24 July 2013)

Suggest you have a consultation with a Society of Equine Behaviour Consultant. They are qualified and insured and should be able to diagnose the root cause of the problem and suggest a retraining programme if appropriate. Good luck.


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## Llanali (24 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			I've never done any showing, but he has pretty bad scars on hind leg always thought the had to be clean limbed???
		
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Might need to be clean limbed to win but not to participate for experience... And at local level it's not that important...


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## khalswitz (24 July 2013)

Llanali said:



			Might need to be clean limbed to win but not to participate for experience... And at local level it's not that important...
		
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This!! I do in hand with my exracer who is daft as a brush at comps, just to give him the experience. He never wins due to scars but its Ery good for him! I now pop on for a ridden class after inhand and he's much more settled having been out and done a class first. Could be an idea?


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## ellie_e (24 July 2013)

khalswitz said:



			This!! I do in hand with my exracer who is daft as a brush at comps, just to give him the experience. He never wins due to scars but its Ery good for him! I now pop on for a ridden class after inhand and he's much more settled having been out and done a class first. Could be an idea?
		
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Yes- any things worth a go, what do I have to do?? What's the turnout? What class do I enter? Complete showing newbie!


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## SparkleB (24 July 2013)

Sorry if this has been said before, lost track of what has and hasn't been suggested, have you tried taking another horse into the ring with you? Pick a friendly venue and ask if you can have another horse in there just 'warming up' around you, this may take the pressure off and allow the both of you to relax because now doubt the minute you get into the ring you tense up waiting for the explosion! 
Like everyone else, competing under sedalin just seem irresponsible and selfish. Why should the horse compete if he quite obviously doenst want to jusdt because he has talent!? 

Why not just allow a break from everything and go back to nice relaxing hacks with company and also try just walking out in hand so that you are alone but you're safer.


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## Llanali (24 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			Yes- any things worth a go, what do I have to do?? What's the turnout? What class do I enter? Complete showing newbie!
		
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Find a local show and look for something like "best condition" or anything else with no breed or type requirements.

For in hand, trousers for you, pref in an opposite colour to his legs, shirt and tie, hacking jacket weathe dependent, hat, gloves and jod boots. snaffle bridle for him, plait mane and plait or pull tail, nice and clean and tidy.


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## MagicMelon (24 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			Now I don&#8217;t need telling about dope testing rules etc, I&#8217;m well aware that you shouldn&#8217;t ride on it, but I&#8217;m looking for those with experiences with it.
		
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Well hopefully nobody here HAS experience of competing on it since as you state, its against rules to do so.  Annoying as your horses problem is (and trust me, I have had one in the past who did exactly the same thing in the ring - would nap/rear like mad), EVERYONE has some sort of problem area with their horse so if everyone doped them up to compete, well it wouldn't be terribly fair now would it.  I personally think you're mental for even considering it and your trainer shouldn't be training anyone with suggestions like this.  If the trainer is so great then ask them to ride your horse in the ring and see how they get on.  Otherwise, if you do choose to compete on it then I hope someone on here knows who you are and BS are encouraged to blood test your horse and you're banned before you cause a serious injury to your horse.

With regard to the problem.  Apart from ruling out you being the issue by getting someone else to try you competing your horse and if you've tried everything else, TBH I'd consider selling.  As I said, I had a horse who had talent to burn - he'd jump ANYTHING at ANY height in lessons and at home, but for some reason put him in the ring and 10% of the time he'd be wonderful but 90% of the time he'd nap at the start and rear like mad or he'd jump a few fences then grind to a halt and start rearing again - once he started, that'd be it and you couldn't get him going again.  I had a pro try him in the ring and he reared her off so I ruled out that it was me causing it.  After 5 years of trying everything (different trainers, getting back/saddle etc. done, trying various legal calmers), I realised my horse simply did not enjoy competing in SJ (or XC) so I sold him to a hacking home where he was happier and I got a horse who loved to jump.


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## ellie_e (24 July 2013)

MagicMelon said:



			Well hopefully nobody here HAS experience of competing on it since as you state, its against rules to do so.  Annoying as your horses problem is (and trust me, I have had one in the past who did exactly the same thing in the ring - would nap/rear like mad), EVERYONE has some sort of problem area with their horse so if everyone doped them up to compete, well it wouldn't be terribly fair now would it.  I personally think you're mental for even considering it and your trainer shouldn't be training anyone with suggestions like this.  If the trainer is so great then ask them to ride your horse in the ring and see how they get on.  Otherwise, if you do choose to compete on it then I hope someone on here knows who you are and BS are encouraged to blood test your horse and you're banned before you cause a serious injury to your horse.

With regard to the problem.  Apart from ruling out you being the issue by getting someone else to try you competing your horse and if you've tried everything else, TBH I'd consider selling.  As I said, I had a horse who had talent to burn - he'd jump ANYTHING at ANY height in lessons and at home, but for some reason put him in the ring and 10% of the time he'd be wonderful but 90% of the time he'd nap at the start and rear like mad or he'd jump a few fences then grind to a halt and start rearing again - once he started, that'd be it and you couldn't get him going again.  I had a pro try him in the ring and he reared her off so I ruled out that it was me causing it.  After 5 years of trying everything (different trainers, getting back/saddle etc. done, trying various legal calmers), I realised my horse simply did not enjoy competing in SJ (or XC) so I sold him to a hacking home where he was happier and I got a horse who loved to jump.
		
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please refer to previous posts where I state horse will not be for sale, due to various different factors, and he does not enjoy hacking.


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## Goldenstar (24 July 2013)

I think showing is a great idea to try to get though this .
I am remembering though a friends homebred who had bad explosive moments it had cataracts ,have I got that right did you say earlier in the thread the horse had an issue with its eyes in which case I would be inclined to think that's whats at the bottom of it.


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## TarrSteps (24 July 2013)

Been there, done that, Gs.


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## MagicMelon (24 July 2013)

ellie_e said:



			please refer to previous posts where I state horse will not be for sale, due to various different factors, and he does not enjoy hacking.
		
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Ok, then try a different disipline. Haven't you already done that?  Try dressage, showing, XC, whatever you can think of and see what your horse does in those situations then take it from there.  If its PURELY SJ that its doing it, Id be inclined to think that its stale and sick of the sight of show jumps.  Have you given this horse time off work?


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## ellie_e (24 July 2013)

MagicMelon said:



			Ok, then try a different disipline. Haven't you already done that?  Try dressage, showing, XC, whatever you can think of and see what your horse does in those situations then take it from there.  If its PURELY SJ that its doing it, Id be inclined to think that its stale and sick of the sight of show jumps.  Have you given this horse time off work?
		
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We've swapped to DR and he was fine- now started to do it again


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