# Whatever your views on a badger cull in the fight against bovine TB please watch



## TED2010 (18 May 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofTpfzEUUBY&feature=player_embedded

I work with bTB on a daily basis and this short film still brought tears to my eyes, how anybody could not feel sad watching it I do not know.  I know its nearly 15 minutes long but please please watch it to the end and share it with as many people as you can on facebook, by email etc to raise awareness of what this terrible disease does and what a waste of beautiful life. 

Thank you


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## mon (18 May 2012)

How can they not pull out every stop to stop cattle getting bTB they think nothing of culling cattle but need to cull other animals as well or not cull any animals, alpacas are also spreading TB what would happen if stock was left to get it's own immunity? Do we as a human race intervene with animals too much as a fellow cattle and sheep farmer dread these diseases and compensation is only a small part of it, work with them 365 days a year then some test could mean an official says they need destroying, no farmer asks for these diseases but are left to pick up the pieces afterwards.


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## martlin (18 May 2012)

Absolutely heart wrenching viewing... just shows you how little truth is in the ''farmers don't care about stock'' propaganda.


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## Baggybreeches (18 May 2012)

The thought that Dai put into the whole thing 'which cow should be killed first' is the most understated compassion that no 'bunny/badger hugger' would ever understand.
Devastating.


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## AdorableAlice (18 May 2012)

TED2010, thank you for bringing this to the attention of many.

We breed Shorthorn in much smaller numbers and have been in exactly the same place very recently.

The bulk of the British public have no idea what the protection of badgers bill is actually doing.  I want to write reams, but the film has touched a raw nerve and I can't find the right words.  Perhaps someone else will.


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## martlin (18 May 2012)

We have abandoned cattle farming, it's sheep only nowadays, it was all too upsetting with out pedigree herd.


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## mon (18 May 2012)

Film should go on tv for public to watch how heart rendering, but as said by vet public don't know or understand think all farmers want is to kill badgers, we need to stop this disease before it is too late.


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## AdorableAlice (18 May 2012)

It is too late in my view.

Can we keep pushing this up, so as many people can see it.


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## mon (18 May 2012)

Bumb


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## TED2010 (18 May 2012)

Thank you for those that have watched the video and please share it with others. As you said it should be broadcast on the BBC for all to see but the best we seem to achieve is a mention on Countryfile on a Sunday evening. It is not only Cattle and Badgers that are affected by bTB but unfortunately badgers, by the way they become infected are more infectious than any other mammal.  No other country has successfully eradicated TB without addressing the wildlife vector.  Deer also carry and spread bTB but not to the extent that badgers do. If nothing is done eventually it will affect all of our wildlife.  There were over 100 cases discovered in cats last year, several in dogs and goats.  There was also a scare that some horses had become infected. Farmers do all they can and they DO care about their livestock deeply but how on earth do they practically prevent contact between their livestock and badgers without keeping them shut up in wildlife proof sheds all year round.  Who wants to, or should be made to farm like that!?  This film was heart wrenching and I just don't understand the mentality of people who put the lives of diseased wildlife above that of those cattle and refuse to accept that a humane cull is the only
way forward.


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## TED2010 (18 May 2012)

I forgot to mention Alpacas and Llamas which can also get bTB and spread it. There is no compulsory testing for these animals (which I think there should be for movements) but the Camelid society has done a huge amount to raise awareness of the issues and most owners take bio security extremely seriously and do what they can to protect their animals.


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## Miss L Toe (18 May 2012)

duplicate


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## Miss L Toe (18 May 2012)

My cousin shoots the badgers on his land, illegal, but if it were me, I would do the same.
Years ago badgers were fairly rare, but now they are common and widespread, , so more contacts and more spread of this disease, which was under control in the 1050's 1060's and 70's.


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## AdorableAlice (18 May 2012)

up to the top again, the more that see it the better.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (18 May 2012)

Successive governments have done sweet FA to tackle this; all everyone has ever done is bury their heads in the sand.

This is happening to farmers up and down the land on a daily/weekly basis; so heartbreaking, just imagine if it was us with our horses - the whole thing is so brutal & so horrible.

The Fluffy Bunny/Badger brigade tout themselves as "animal lovers"; I've never understood why they can't extend that "compassion" to cattle and other animals who contract TB. It all seems very one-sided IMO.


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## mon (18 May 2012)

Agree need more research but must do all we can to protect cattle and other animals from this terrible disease.


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## madmav (18 May 2012)

Defra is hopelessly useless. Remember how that Government department failed monumentally to control foot and mouth 11 years ago? I feel for Dai in Carmarthenshire, but fear he and other farmers will be let down by those idiots in charge.


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## Ladydragon (19 May 2012)

Utterly heart breaking for him...  Does anyone know if the remaining cattle passed the later test?

I was a wreck reading about Daisy a few weeks ago...  I guess people just don't have the foggiest idea about the devastation for the individuals and actual numbers of cattle involved...  Or are able to push it to one side under the auspice of protecting the integrity of the food chain...

Is it just Wales that will be implementing the vaccination programme rather than any cull?


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## Moomin1 (19 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			My cousin shoots the badgers on his land, illegal, but if it were me, I would do the same.
Years ago badgers were fairly rare, but now they are common and widespread, , so more contacts and more spread of this disease, which was under control in the 1050's 1060's and 70's.
		
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Nice.  Let's hope your cousin gets caught!  There is no excuse for breaking the law - whether you agree or disagree.


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## Moomin1 (19 May 2012)

The way I view that footage is that the farmer concerned is very sad obviously at the loss of his prized cattle.  I feel very sorry for him and he does seem like a compassionate and caring farmer, as most are.

However, I also can't rule out that some of that footage is probably staged - and the fact that he says badgers are 'murdering' cattle by giving them TB is ridiculous to say the least!!  Maybe we should get them all on an identity parade!! 

I think, looking from an objective point of view, we should look at proper scientific studies (and many of them, not just one or two) to be able to come to any decision as to whether badgers should be culled or not.


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## Miss L Toe (19 May 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Nice.  Let's hope your cousin gets caught!  There is no excuse for breaking the law - whether you agree or disagree.
		
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Yes there is an excuse, he has a herd of  pedigree cattle that he does not want to shoot, it is his lively hood, and his main interest in life. The animals are shot humanely.

I probably break the law most days when I drive around the town, lots of time I look down and see I am doing 31mph! Every day, I see people driving round using a mobile phone, which I consider to be a more serious offence, but people still do it ...... a lot!
If the suffragettes had not broken the law you would not have the vote, we would still have slaves in the dominions, and "own" the United States of America.


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## Clava (19 May 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			The way I view that footage is that the farmer concerned is very sad obviously at the loss of his prized cattle.  I feel very sorry for him and he does seem like a compassionate and caring farmer, as most are.

However, I also can't rule out that some of that footage is probably staged - and the fact that he says badgers are 'murdering' cattle by giving them TB is ridiculous to say the least!!  Maybe we should get them all on an identity parade!! 

I think, looking from an objective point of view, we should look at proper scientific studies (and many of them, not just one or two) to be able to come to any decision as to whether badgers should be culled or not.
		
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I agree. Cattle are also bred to be killed (but usually eaten so the concept of murder is very odd), just not all at the same time...I feel for the farmers loss of livelihood, but not for the deaths of the cattle.


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## Miss L Toe (19 May 2012)

Clava said:



			I agree. Cattle are also bred to be killed (but usually eaten so the concept of murder is very odd), just not all at the same time...I feel for the farmers loss of livelihood, but not for the deaths of the cattle.
		
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These Longhorn cattle are a rare breed, not really kept for maximum profitablity, he will presumably lose all his cattle and their genetic potential, which is irreplaceable. He breeds them, the surplus go to the abbatoir and hence to feed us humans. This is how he makes his living. Like most farmers he is proud of his cattle and seeks to improve them, he shows them, it is his reward for all the hard work, now that is all lost.
He is not a politician, just an ordinary, hard working farmer of the old school.


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## Clava (19 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			He breeds them, the surplus go to the abbatoir and hence to feed us humans. This is how he makes his living. .
		
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So he breeds them for the pleasure of owning a rare breed? with just the surplus used to make his living? The lost of the genetics is terrible but cattle are bred to be used (for milk) and killed it is why they are bred and not for any other reason unless they are pets (or perhaps should be in a zoo to protect their species), so the idea of "murder" I find rather odd.


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## Miss L Toe (19 May 2012)

Clava said:



			So he breeds them for the pleasure of owning a rare breed? with just the surplus used to make his living? .
		
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Yes.
http://www.longhorncattlesociety.com/


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## Clava (19 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Yes.
		
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Well then I have even less sympathy for his livelihood then as it sounds more like a hobby. I don't support mass culls of any animal, but always want proper research and  not staged or melodrammtic statements such as "murder" used when talking about animals bred to be killed at some point.


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## Joanna710 (19 May 2012)

Clava said:



			Well then I have even less sympathy for his livelihood then as it sounds more like a hobby.
		
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So does that meant you too would have less sympathy for an owner who's horse had to be put down because "it sounds more like a hobby"?!! Maybe you should rethink your statement slightly, the ownership of these animals, whether for profit, pleasure or both, is equally important as that you hold over your own animals. I personally would love for my hobby to become my way of life, as I'm sure a whole load of readers on this forum would agree.

I for one thing am not against badger culling, as my farming family in Somerset have experienced first hand how it feels to lose animals to TB. I do however agree to an extent, that we must ensure where possible that only 'unhealthy' badgers are culled. For this to happen, we have to be able to ascertain that it _is_ definitely badgers that are causing the spread of bovine TB within the farming community, as killing for the sake of killing is not going to do DEFRA/ our governement any favours.


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## Alec Swan (19 May 2012)

I posted the thoughts below on another thread,  which was dealing with the same subject......

"I haven't read through all the responses, but from those that I have read, there seems to be a colossal amount of poorly researched replies.

Badgers are curious animals. They're our dinosaurs, if you like! They are certainly something from our past, which for centuries, despite no natural enemy, rubbed along with man, and lived, with us, a more or less harmonious existence. 

Badger populations remained more or less static, for centuries I suspect. I remember my childhood very well, and finding the evidence of badgers, on a fairly regular basis, but I didn't see one until I was in my mid 20s, which would have been in the early 70s.

Our world changed after WW11, in many ways. _As an example,_ The Forestry Commission evolved, in Southern England, the Roe deer population, most certainly because of the new found and ideal environment, exploded. There were Roe deer, EVERYWHERE!! In Hampshire they were living on motorway junctions. Hampshire certainly, was alive with them.

The badger has been given a similar environment in which to prosper. The expansion of cattle and sheep enterprises have promoted the badgers repro rates. The badger, to a large extent, lives off beetles and earth worms. With our continuing mild winters, cattle which 50 years ago were wintered "In", are now left "Out". As they're left out, the ground living creatures which survive in the dung of the cattle, and which assist he badger through the winter months, have encouraged a breeding programme which is no longer sustainable.

There is no question that we now have far more cattle, and sheep, than we actually need, and accepting that we have a healthy export market, it's the very presence of livestock which encourages such a hike in our badger population. 

I cannot see how vaccinating a proportion of the badger population is going to prevent the spread of BTB. Short of completely excavating a sett, I fail to see how all badgers can be accounted for, by vaccination.

There is, as I see it, only one sensible answer; remove the badger from the list of the protected. Badgers are not easily seen, they would be difficult to find and they are not readily killed. In areas of high bovine densities, they would of course be heavily culled, and as nature abhors a vacuum, there would be a ready supply of fresh stock from the areas where they weren't killed. 

For those who believe that the badger is hated, you couldn't be further from the truth. All those who farm and keep cattle, view him as a gentle giant and a dinosaur. They have no wish for eradication, just a measured and sustainable cull, which will remove or reduce the threat to their livelihoods".

I couldn't be bothered to type it all out again,  so I've just dragged it across.  All wildlife needs to be managed,  and in a balanced way.  Those who campaign for the total protection of badgers,  claiming as they seem to do,  that no animal needs a natural enemy,  are so misguided as to be at the point where they are doing the focus of their attention,  a grave disservice.  To support my argument,  just look at our vulpine population,  and how the numbers have increased,  and as the numbers have increased,  so has the fox's ned for ever larger scavenging areas,  which now include our cities.  I accept that foxes lived an urban existence,  before the ban on hunting,  but none the less,  the increase in numbers is already having side effects,  with the spread of mange,  with the parasite which spreads it being able to spread to our domestic animals.

But there we are,  I suppose that all those who focus on saving the life of every living creature will for reasons which are beyond me,  have a greater influence over government decisions than those who would advocate "Balance".

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (19 May 2012)

Joanna710 said:



			....... I do however agree to an extent, that we must ensure where possible that only 'unhealthy' badgers are culled. .......
		
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I'm sorry Joanna,  but that isn't being realistic.  Two points for you;  firstly EVERY badger has the ability to become a carrier and therefore,  a threat,  and secondly,  just how would it be determined,  which badgers were a risk?  Would you suggest that they be trapped,  tested,  vaccinated and released?  The stress levels placed upon a wild animal when it's contained are cruelty in the extreme,  and let me assure you of one thing,  no wild animal has ever understood or appreciated the helping hand of a human.

Alec.


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## Joanna710 (19 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm sorry Joanna,  but that isn't being realistic.  Two points for you;  firstly EVERY badger has the ability to become a carrier and therefore,  a threat,  and secondly,  just how would it be determined,  which badgers were a risk?  Would you suggest that they be trapped,  tested,  vaccinated and released?  The stress levels placed upon a wild animal when it's contained are cruelty in the extreme,  and let me assure you of one thing,  no wild animal has ever understood or appreciated the helping hand of a human.

Alec.
		
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Unhealthy badgers tend to be evicted from sets, so it would save a cull from targeting known sets, as the affected animals are far likely to move around alone.  Call me an idealist if you like, but please note the "where possible" in my previous comment. If it's not possible, it doesn't happen, but if it can deter people from destroying whole sets then it would be a step in the right direction for both animal rights activists, and farmers alike.

And no, I'm not suggesting that we trap these animals for testing and vaccination. What I am suggesting is to target animals that are alone/ wandering, and not to destroy whole sets. Yes they are all carriers, but it is those who wander that pose more of a threat to livestock.


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## Clava (19 May 2012)

Joanna710 said:



			So does that meant you too would have less sympathy for an owner who's horse had to be put down because "it sounds more like a hobby"?!! Maybe you should rethink your statement slightly, the ownership of these animals, whether for profit, pleasure or both, is equally important as that you hold over your own animals..
		
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My horses are not bred to be eaten and killed, cattle are. If they were meat horses in France than no I would have no more sympathy.


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## mon (19 May 2012)

I hope no one ever turns up at your place and orders destruction of apparently healtHy animas on the back of a test whether they are for meat or not they are his animals being killed without his say, and would you be there whilst they are shot?.


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## ILuvCowparsely (19 May 2012)

I watched fractions of it, could not watch it all   to sad  .

 Poor guy poor cattle.  This was a very moving sad clip  gut wrenching .


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## ILuvCowparsely (19 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Yes there is an excuse, he has a herd of  pedigree cattle that he does not want to shoot, it is his lively hood, and his main interest in life. The animals are shot humanely.

I probably break the law most days when I drive around the town, lots of time I look down and see I am doing 31mph! Every day, I see people driving round using a mobile phone, which I consider to be a more serious offence, but people still do it ...... a lot!
If the suffragettes had not broken the law you would not have the vote, we would still have slaves in the dominions, and "own" the United States of America.
		
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There is NO EXCUSE for killing illegally


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## Miss L Toe (19 May 2012)

Clava said:



			Well then I have even less sympathy for his livelihood then as it sounds more like a hobby. I don't support mass culls of any animal, but always want proper research and  not staged or melodrammtic statements such as "murder" used when talking about animals bred to be killed at some point.
		
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But the cattle are being culled, that is why farmers are protesting, for each individual farmer this is a dreadful thing to have to cope with, to see his animals slaughtered, when he can do nothing to prevent it, just as with Foot and Mouth, only there are no funeral pyres across the countryside and the mass effect is not so economically disastrous.
The video showed how one farmer, an ordinary chap chose to record his view and you have picked up on the "murder", there are two vets who are also concerned, not to mention all the evidence, what is so wonderful about badgers? Can I assume you are not anti fox-hunting as this is not a mass cull, oh no, it is a hobby for many people so can't be tolerated either.


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## Miss L Toe (19 May 2012)

duplicate


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## Miss L Toe (19 May 2012)

Clava said:



			Well then I have even less sympathy for his livelihood then as it sounds more like a hobby. I don't support mass culls of any animal, but always want proper research and  not staged or melodrammtic statements such as "murder" used when talking about animals bred to be killed at some point.
		
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But the cattle are being massively culled, that is why farmers are protesting, for each individual farmer this is a dreadful thing to have to cope with, to see his animals slaughtered, when he can do nothing to prevent it, just as with Foot and Mouth [not such a debilitating disease by the way], only there are no funeral pyres across the countryside.


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## Miss L Toe (19 May 2012)

Leviathan said:



			There is NO EXCUSE for killing illegally
		
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In your opinion there is no excuse, but in someone who has his livelihood and  that of his family and of his employees this is a good reason to defy the law. a law which says crows are bad and seagulls are good....... please re-read Animal Farm.


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## Ladydragon (19 May 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			However, I also can't rule out that some of that footage is probably staged - and the fact that he says badgers are 'murdering' cattle by giving them TB is ridiculous to say the least!!  Maybe we should get them all on an identity parade!!
		
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Staged in what way?  As for the 'murder' comment...  It is used (incorrectly) by many people about animals when emotions are a bit high...  Other than that, which I could ignore as I do when many others bandy the term around, the footage appeared quite genuine to me in circumstances/experience...



Clava said:



			Well then I have even less sympathy for his livelihood then as it sounds more like a hobby. I don't support mass culls of any animal, but always want proper research and  not staged or melodrammtic statements such as "murder" used when talking about animals bred to be killed at some point.
		
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So if an animal is going to be killed for meat, it's perfectly ok to slaughter it 'early' and not for meat?  If it is being kept for breeding it's obviously just a hobby and ok to slaughter unnecessarily?  Everything is going to die so by that argument, your horse being a leisure not meat animal is irrelevant if someone decides it should be slaughtered - it's going to die at some point anyway...  

It'll be interesting to see the results of the welsh vaccination program...  Available evidence is undoubtedly conflicting as to the best way forward but in the meantime, making light of the animals being slaughtered or the livelihood of the farmer, is somewhat crass IMO...


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## Alec Swan (19 May 2012)

Ladydragon said:



			.......

It'll be interesting to see the results of the welsh vaccination program...  
...
		
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Indeed it will,  but I suspect that the problem will be that one side,  or the other wont get the result that they were hoping for,  and it'll be back to a programme and the argument,  of killing them,  or not.

I'm a little confused as to how this planned for vaccination programme is supposed to work.  Will it be given by injection?  If it is,  then would a pregnant sow pass on a partial immunity to her unborn cubs,  and would that be an immunity to BTB,  or the vaccine?  Does anyone know?

Alec.


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## Moomin1 (19 May 2012)

Ladydragon said:



			Staged in what way?  As for the 'murder' comment...  It is used (incorrectly) by many people about animals when emotions are a bit high...  Other than that, which I could ignore as I do when many others bandy the term around, the footage appeared quite genuine to me in circumstances/experience...



So if an animal is going to be killed for meat, it's perfectly ok to slaughter it 'early' and not for meat?  If it is being kept for breeding it's obviously just a hobby and ok to slaughter unnecessarily?  Everything is going to die so by that argument, your horse being a leisure not meat animal is irrelevant if someone decides it should be slaughtered - it's going to die at some point anyway...  

It'll be interesting to see the results of the welsh vaccination program...  Available evidence is undoubtedly conflicting as to the best way forward but in the meantime, making light of the animals being slaughtered or the livelihood of the farmer, is somewhat crass IMO...
		
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He was being filmed watching his stock being stunned, hauled off etc etc with a sad look on his face and stroking the animals.  That is bound to be what he does on camera - he's hardly going to stand there coldly and walk off commenting how much money he has lost.  The biggest effect he could have is tug on the heart strings and talk about how sad he is at losing his cattle which he loved so much and is devastated that they are now dead.  More the the point he is devastated more so for the loss to his pocket.  Which is fine - it's a business, but using the word 'murder' is the most ridiculous and laughable comment!  He was actually saying that badgers are murderers!  Lol - I'm afraid he lost credibility in my eyes from that comment.  I mean wtf?!!!  I wonder if the badgers premeditate the murder or if it's second degree?!


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## Joanna710 (19 May 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			Another townie talking through her backside and having no respect for farmers, farming or the countryside.

There was no camera when I stood with mine, a pedigree cow with a month to go before calving.  What that video showed was exactly what cattle producers and breeders face year in, year out, because the politicians and the likes of Moomin have not got a fecking clue about farming.

What is left is being tested again in the morning.  I have a huge set 600 yards away and would willing shoot the lot.  Moomin you do not have a clue what you are spouting about, stick to grooming your pony and putting on your plate food that you have no understanding where it comes from.
		
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Well said.


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## Alec Swan (19 May 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			He was being filmed watching his stock being stunned, hauled off etc etc with a sad look on his face and stroking the animals.  That is bound to be what he does on camera - he's hardly going to stand there coldly and walk off commenting how much money he has lost.  The biggest effect he could have is tug on the heart strings and talk about how sad he is at losing his cattle which he loved so much and is devastated that they are now dead.  More the the point he is devastated more so for the loss to his pocket.  Which is fine - it's a business, but using the word 'murder' is the most ridiculous and laughable comment!  He was actually saying that badgers are murderers!  Lol - I'm afraid he lost credibility in my eyes from that comment.  I mean wtf?!!!  I wonder if the badgers premeditate the murder or if it's second degree?!
		
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AdorableAlice said:



			Another townie talking through her backside and having no respect for farmers, farming or the countryside.

There was no camera when I stood with mine, a pedigree cow with a month to go before calving.  What that video showed was exactly what cattle producers and breeders face year in, year out, because the politicians and the likes of Moomin have not got a fecking clue about farming.

What is left is being tested again in the morning.  I have a huge set 600 yards away and would willing shoot the lot.  Moomin you do not have a clue what you are spouting about, stick to grooming your pony and putting on your plate food that you have no understanding where it comes from.
		
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I'm sorry Moomin1,  but though A_A's response may be a trifle strong,  the sentiments were entirely correct,  and your post was an insult to any caring and committed stockman.

Alec.


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## shortstuff99 (19 May 2012)

But bovine TB is not a new problem? Why didn't the farmers deal with it 60+ years ago? As I stated in an earlier thread my great-grandma died of TB as during the war she packed bombs using old cow straw... Which had nothing to do with badgers. There is evidence that TB stays dormant/has a long incubation period so what seem healthy cows are carrying the disease and spread it around the country. IMHO I don't feel a cull will work.. It will not be rigorous enough and I don't feel badgers are the main reasons. I think farmers and scientists should work together to solve this issue.


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## JanetGeorge (19 May 2012)

Joanna710 said:



			Unhealthy badgers tend to be evicted from sets, so it would save a cull from targeting known sets, as the affected animals are far likely to move around alone.  Call me an idealist if you like, but please note the "where possible" in my previous comment. If it's not possible, it doesn't happen, but if it can deter people from destroying whole sets then it would be a step in the right direction for both animal rights activists, and farmers alike.

And no, I'm not suggesting that we trap these animals for testing and vaccination. What I am suggesting is to target animals that are alone/ wandering, and not to destroy whole sets. Yes they are all carriers, but it is those who wander that pose more of a threat to livestock.
		
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Unrealistic!  An animal has to be dying on its feet to be evicted, and by then it will have infected the whole sett (a badger sett is a bit like the over-crowded slum accomodation which is heavily implicated in human TB!)

And healthy badgers are often alone and wandering - particularly males!


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## shortstuff99 (19 May 2012)

I know someone who is doing research into badger family dynamics and illness etc so may help shed light on this whole subject.


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## Alec Swan (19 May 2012)

shortstuff,

you may well be to young to remember 60 years ago,  as I am clearly,  but following on from the War Effort,  the Ministry of Agriculture was formed,  and I remember very well how Ministry vets were testing cattle for TB,  and then,  as now,  those who farm had no say what so ever in the decision making.  

Pointing out that farmers should have sorted the problem,  is a facile remark.  Had they been allowed to do so,  then we wouldn't be in the muddle which we are now.  Government,  and desperate for votes from the masses,  will agree to anything,  rather than consider right from wrong,  and it's Government,  YES 60 years ago and beyond,  who are responsible,  not those who farm.

Alec.


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## shortstuff99 (19 May 2012)

Why were they not allowed to do anything? Why was nothing done If the problem is easy to solve by culling badgers? Or is it not? Is the problem perhaps a lot more complicated then we all believe?


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## Ladydragon (19 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Indeed it will,  but I suspect that the problem will be that one side,  or the other wont get the result that they were hoping for,  and it'll be back to a programme and the argument,  of killing them,  or not.

I'm a little confused as to how this planned for vaccination programme is supposed to work.  Will it be given by injection?  If it is,  then would a pregnant sow pass on a partial immunity to her unborn cubs,  and would that be an immunity to BTB,  or the vaccine?  Does anyone know?

Alec.
		
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I agree...  Lies, damn lies and statistics and that's before twisting to suit agendas...  

I'm not totally sure on the implementation yet - the U turn to vaccination (pilot in Pembrokeshire) is fairly recent but AIUI, the idea is that farmers, landowners, rangers etc will be trained in the use of traps, IM injecting and release...  Arguably a burden on farming communities so far as time and commitment is concerned - some of whom, being realistic, may well also find temptation in different methods once Mr Brock is parked in a trap...  It'll be years I guess before there is any real information forthcoming... I believe the BCG is being used so uptake rates are way less than 100% and it'll be way less than 100% trapped and vaccinated...  60% or less uptake (totally questionable rates given general uptake and very young animals are unlikely to be trapped) and maybe 30% or so of the population caught/released will see a low vaccination rate and that's if every bit of land is involved...  

Not sure about the placental transmission at time of vaccination... Pregnancy in humans was contraindicated so not much info there... There is no (to my knowledge) immunity passed from mother to unborn during subsequent pregnancies in any species...  

FWIW, I don't think eradication is possible...  Vaccination of cattle and a more sensitive test to differentiate vaccinated reactors from non vaccinated seems the most straightforward to me...   The EU don't agree... 



Moomin1 said:



			He was being filmed watching his stock being stunned, hauled off etc etc with a sad look on his face and stroking the animals.  That is bound to be what he does on camera - he's hardly going to stand there coldly and walk off commenting how much money he has lost.  The biggest effect he could have is tug on the heart strings and talk about how sad he is at losing his cattle which he loved so much and is devastated that they are now dead.  More the the point he is devastated more so for the loss to his pocket.
		
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I agree the use of the word murder is overtly emotive but it's certainly not restricted to this chap...  The suggestion that any emotions he displayed or devastation implied was purely for the cameras though or financially motivated, no, I cant' agree with that...


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## ILuvCowparsely (19 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			In your opinion there is no excuse, but in someone who has his livelihood and  that of his family and of his employees this is a good reason to defy the law. a law which says crows are bad and seagulls are good....... please re-read Animal Farm.
		
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NO!!!

 Illegal is illegal .  Because your not allowed too  period.

 Its illegal to kill swans 
 its illegal to kill owls .   

 No reason to kill badgers. 
 Animal Farm has nothing to do with this. 

The law is there for a reason to protect certain animals . If you have a problem with badgers you go through the right channels .  And do not take  the law into your own hands .
 If you have a license  for a gun and a license to cull badgers thats one thing , but doing it  for personal reasons its  wrong plain and simples.


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## Miss L Toe (19 May 2012)

Cattle are tested regularly and realistically, no more can be done on that front. The Government have control of  disease precautions, and this includes pasteurisation of milk.


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## Alec Swan (20 May 2012)

Leviathan said:



			.......

...... If you have a license  for a gun and a license to cull badgers thats one thing , but doing it  for personal reasons its  wrong plain and simples.
		
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Now this is where we have a fundamental difference of opinion.  I no longer keep cattle,  but if I did,  then rest assured,  I wouldn't give the killing of a badger,  a second thought.

Consider this,  were there a national and a natural shortage of badgers,  then there wouldn't be a problem.  The badgers wouldn't put cattle at risk,  so the hand of man wouldn't be turned against them.

There is no shortage,  in fact the reverse of that's true.  There has been a population explosion,  and if the numbers are reduced to a level where they cease to pose a threat to themselves,  and the nations cattle,  then we,  that's those of us who live cheek by jowl with wildlife,  whilst we attempt to farm ,  and maintain a balance with wildlife,  whilst being lectured by those who live in an ideal world,  but in reality talk theorised and idealistic nonsense,  may be allowed to do what we've done since time immemorial,  and that's to manage and care for our wildlife.  It isn't ours to do with as we please.  We have it in trust,  and must account for it to those who come after,  AND Leviathan,  left to our own devices,  we will maintain a balance,  because we actually care for the badger just as you do.  There's a difference though,  and I'll leave it to you to work that one out for yourself.

Rant over.  It isn't my intention that I offend anyone,  but if I have,  then that's just tough luck.  I'm sick to the back teeth of being lectured to by those who have neither right nor experience to rely upon.

Alec.


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## mon (20 May 2012)

Well said Alec why does the badger be protected whilst the cow has to die, most folk or nearly all,  do not fully understand TB and certainly are not directly affected by the consequences. We are in a 48month test area, but most are in 24month test then extra tests for selling stock at farmers expense.


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## Tinseltoes (21 May 2012)

What about a vaccine???????


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## Kiribati_uk (21 May 2012)

Its not just badgers  that spread TB the deer do aswell where i live the deer are FULL of Tb its horrible to see them. My view is the are TOO MANY badgers thats why they are diease ridden, i dont agree with badgerbaiting but they need culling humanely and badgers eat hedgehogs so i would rather see hedge hogs than badgers!!!!!!


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## AMH (22 May 2012)

Alec, I grew up in Hampshire. I agree that there does seem to be a lot of badgers these days - I never saw them in my childhood, but since I moved away, around 15 years ago, I regularly see them as 'road kill' when I go back to visit my parents.

Unfortunately, whether we like it or not, the entire British countryside is a managed environment, and has been since enclosures in the 18th century. That's why we have grants for hedgerows and set aside strips, etc.

I'm not sure I support an indiscriminate cull, but I'm not sure what the answer is otherwise. I believe that there are anough badgers in the UK now to remove them from the protected list, and I don't know as this would result in a killing spree by farmers. 

I do, however, feel that there have been some very unfair and, frankly, stereotypical comments on this thread regarding farmers' attitudes towards their stock. They deal with life and death every day (where there's livestock, there's dead stock) but that's part and parcel of every day, to a certain extent. But to lose whole numbers to a disease which one is almost unable to protect oneself from must be horrific and a massive worry to every stock farmer come testing time.


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## lillith (23 May 2012)

I grew up in a rural farming community and saw both foot and mouth culls and TB culls, it is absolutely horrible. The farmers are heartbroken, their livelihoods are taken away and the animals are destroyed. I actually had TB as a teenager and both the disease and treatment are extremely unpleasant - I also stayed away from all farms (and therefore could not visit my friends or go for country walks with my family) for six months from diagnosis to the all clear.

I like badgers, I hold no hatred for them, I also dislike any bloodshed that is unnecessary. However if badgers are infecting cattle (and people) with TB then the population needs to be controlled.


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## EAST KENT (23 May 2012)

The badger is a mammal ,so I would expect it to respond to vaccine in the same way as dogs and cats.Therefore the timing of vaccine to protect the unborn cubs is to do it shortly before they fall pregnant or during pregnancy.This is what we (good) dog breeders do,vaccinate our bitches either just before mating,or about three weeks before whelping. Vaccines can be evolved as oral doses fairly easily..that is how Polio was got rid of,vaccine on a sugar lump.Now any badger  cannot resist peanuts or peanut butter,most countrymen /farmers know whereabouts their local badger setts are..just issue the vaccine to applicants,all would be responsible for dealing with their own badger population.What could be easier than that? Defra seem to be so behind the times on vet medicine..for goodness sake they`ve only recently realised that the Rabies vaccine actually DOES work,now vaccinated  dogs can travel freely..no more six months encarceration in a concrete cell.
   Certainly in my own breeding kennel problems do crop up..Parvo and Herpes as examples,the idea of killing all contact dogs is laughable..ring vaccinate ..problem solved.
   Now ,if you argue on the cost..how much to vaccinate the badger population as opposed to paying out compensation for all these reactors,as well as the stopping of the farmer concerned trading? Not rocket science !


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## Alec Swan (23 May 2012)

AMH said:



			.......

I'm not sure I support an indiscriminate cull, but I'm not sure what the answer is otherwise. I believe that there are anough badgers in the UK now to remove them from the protected list, and I don't know as this would result in a killing spree by farmers. 

........
		
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Broadly speaking,  I'd go along with that.

If we accept the premiss that badgers have reached the stage of over population,  then we are forced,  as I see it,  into accepting that those which would die from natural predation,  and bear in mind that badgers have no natural enemy,  are surviving,  and being the weakest within their own structured environment,  they are prone to ill health.  

By reducing,  not annihilating,  the badger population,  we will lessen the risk of cross infection,  and there will be fewer badgers which are itinerant,  in that they will roam from sett to sett,  spreading disease,  and we will once again have a balance.  It wont happen,  that we know,  because those who love badgers,  rather than understand them,  have the ear of the vote hungry politician.  The situation isn't exclusive to the question of badgers,  it's an inclusive theme which runs through any discussion which is rural.

Is it a sad world?  I'm not sure about that,  but I do just wish that those who act for us,  with authority,  had the ability to think in a similar fashion!!

Alec.


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## happyhacking:) (23 May 2012)

i am beginning to question whether more should be being done to find a test which actually detects btb rather than an immune response to btb. From what i can work out from doing a bit of reading (and i stand to be corrected if im wrong) the test is a bit like the heath test that they used to use on people? So by culling all the reactors we are possibly doing more harm than good? 


If a test were developed that picked up when an animal was actually infected not when an animal has been vaccinated against  btb. that combined with an oral vaccine and cull for both badgers and deer over a period of time could get us somewhere?


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## Alec Swan (23 May 2012)

happyhacking:) said:



			.......

If a test were developed that picked up when an animal was actually infected not when an animal has been vaccinated against  btb. that combined with an oral vaccine and cull for both badgers and deer over a period of time could get us somewhere?
		
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That would be all very well,  but cattle are held in a crush for inspection and testing.  How are you going to propose that deer and badgers are inspected?  Locating and testing or treating wild animals is impossible.  Even were it possible,  or cost effective,  handling and containing wild animals would be stressful and cruel,  in the extreme.  

Let's assume that we are dealing with badgers alone,  they would need to be trapped in cage traps,  they would need to be handled and tested,  they would need to be released whilst the samples taken are sent away for analysis.  THEN,  the whole process has to be gone through again,  the trapper would need to be certain that he had caught the right animal,  so that if it was clear it would again be released,  but if it was a carrier,  presumably it would be shot,  and all of that,  is assuming that Brock is daft enough to go into a cage trap,  for a second time! 

h_h,  I'm not arguing for the sake of it,  and neither have I singled you out!  It's just that the schemes whereby we somehow manage to have every badger in the country alive,  and for always,  are so impractical,  as to be verging on stupidity! 

There is only one sensible solution,  in itself not a cure-all,  but the problem would be greatly reduced if the wild population of badgers was reduced to manageable numbers.  Strangely,  that would also benefit the badgers themselves,  as they would be healthier,  as a population.

Alec.


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## rhino (23 May 2012)

happyhacking:) said:



			If a test were developed that picked up when an animal was actually infected not when an animal has been vaccinated against  btb. that combined with an oral vaccine and cull for both badgers and deer over a period of time could get us somewhere?
		
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As I replied on the other thread, such diagnostics were being successfully developed, but as usual a lack of funding put paid to further research.


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## Bearskin (23 May 2012)

Why should badgers, (wild animals), die because of our love of meat and milk?  

If you eradicate one species from the ecosystem it affects all other (wild/natural) species.  

If farmers do not want their cattle to contract TB they should find other ways of seperating them from the badgers.  

Sadly that would cost too much.

I am not a bunny hugger.  I hunt and see it as part of life; the strong survive.  The culling of badgers is not selective.  All will die if they are in the wrong location.

In my opinion, the culling of badgers is yet another example of how the human race is raping the planet Earth.


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## Mrs B (23 May 2012)

Bearskin said:



			Why should badgers, (wild animals), die because of our love of meat and milk?  

If you eradicate one species from the ecosystem it affects all other (wild/natural) species.  

If farmers do not want their cattle to contract TB they should find other ways of seperating them from the badgers.  

Sadly that would cost too much.
		
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I don't think anyone has suggested 'eradicating a species' ie badgers. It's more a case of overcoming our latter-day squeamishness about creating a healthy balance by controlling populations. 

Allowing badgers to keep on breeding with no check affects others species too: as does the currently huge deer population.

The modern climate of abundance of food for *our* species (meat and vegetables grown and dispatched/harvested out of our sight) has created a generation or three of those who have no understanding about our place in the food chain, where food comes from or what it takes to get to our plates.

Yes, we are at the top but that comes with responsibilties to manage the eco-system as fairly as we can. 

And if you think I'm a fan of mankind as a species, you're mistaken. I am not. But I am a realist. Separating cattle from badgers is not realistic.


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## martlin (23 May 2012)

Bearskin said:



			If farmers do not want their cattle to contract TB they should find other ways of seperating them from the badgers.
		
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Go on, help us out with some grand ideas... We're simple people, can't come up with ways to separate them.


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## happyhacking:) (23 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			That would be all very well,  but cattle are held in a crush for inspection and testing.  How are you going to propose that deer and badgers are inspected?  Locating and testing or treating wild animals is impossible.  Even were it possible,  or cost effective,  handling and containing wild animals would be stressful and cruel,  in the extreme.  

Let's assume that we are dealing with badgers alone,  they would need to be trapped in cage traps,  they would need to be handled and tested,  they would need to be released whilst the samples taken are sent away for analysis.  THEN,  the whole process has to be gone through again,  the trapper would need to be certain that he had caught the right animal,  so that if it was clear it would again be released,  but if it was a carrier,  presumably it would be shot,  and all of that,  is assuming that Brock is daft enough to go into a cage trap,  for a second time! 

h_h,  I'm not arguing for the sake of it,  and neither have I singled you out!  It's just that the schemes whereby we somehow manage to have every badger in the country alive,  and for always,  are so impractical,  as to be verging on stupidity! 

There is only one sensible solution,  in itself not a cure-all,  but the problem would be greatly reduced if the wild population of badgers was reduced to manageable numbers.  Strangely,  that would also benefit the badgers themselves,  as they would be healthier,  as a population.

Alec.[/QUOTE

Sorry Alec should have elaborated a bit more. I was talking about dealing with btb in cattle and not so much in deer and badgers. I was thinking along the lines of if all cattle were vaccinated against btb then the number of culled would dramatically fall. But if there were more vaccinated badgers (and deer if possible) and also a reduction in numbers there would be an improvement within those populations (though we would never really know how successful it was). 

The problem as i see it (and i may be coming from the wrong angle here) is that we cannot at present protect our cattle from btb. If a vaccine was developed that did protect them and at the same time only infected cattle were picked up on the test, we could presumably either eradicate or dramatically reduce the number of cattle culled each year. 

The badgers and deer would be on their own. As you rightly said we cannot do much to protect them from btb. But allowing more individuals to cull them would pick off the worst ones and reduce the numbers and giving them an oral vaccine (talking scattering food on the ground above the set) would gradually bring the infection rate down
		
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## mon (23 May 2012)

So why should cattle have to die just because so test shows they carry TB? How do you suggest we separate cattle and the feed from badgers total isolation? Then someone would complain of intensive farming!


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## Ladydragon (24 May 2012)

Bearskin said:



			Why should badgers, (wild animals), die because of our love of meat and milk?  

If you eradicate one species from the ecosystem it affects all other (wild/natural) species.  

If farmers do not want their cattle to contract TB they should find other ways of seperating them from the badgers.  

Sadly that would cost too much.

I am not a bunny hugger.  I hunt and see it as part of life; the strong survive.  The culling of badgers is not selective.  All will die if they are in the wrong location.

In my opinion, the culling of badgers is yet another example of how the human race is raping the planet Earth.
		
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Huh?  How do you separate cattle and badgers and ensure the welfare requirements of the cattle (ie grazing, outdoor life etc) are met?

And who has suggested badgers should be eradicated?  But you are happy for sick badgers to live through the less than savoury parts of an illness because they can't be put out of their misery...  And it's ok for cattle to continue to be slaughtered but no badgers?  Should we just be done with it and slaughter all cattle be they for milk, meat, pet or breed appreciation now so the badgers won't be bothered any more?

You kinda lost me at eradication... 



happyhacking:) said:



			The problem as i see it (and i may be coming from the wrong angle here) is that we cannot at present protect our cattle from btb. If a vaccine was developed that did protect them and at the same time only infected cattle were picked up on the test, we could presumably either eradicate or dramatically reduce the number of cattle culled each year. 

The badgers and deer would be on their own. As you rightly said we cannot do much to protect them from btb. But allowing more individuals to cull them would pick off the worst ones and reduce the numbers and giving them an oral vaccine (talking scattering food on the ground above the set) would gradually bring the infection rate down
		
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For what it's worth, my personal opinion would be that we have bTB so need to deal with it with a disease management rather than being under any impression we can eradicate it...  A reliable test that can differentiate between a vaccine and reactor, a species specific vaccine with a decent uptake and longevity, and the EU to withdraw a ban on the use of vaccines...  I think either cull or vaccination of badgers needs to be done given where we are at right now but I do think both *might* be short term answers as neither will eradicate bTB...  In 10+ yrs time, breeding, transmission and migration *might* put us back at square one and another debate on vaccination v cull if we don't get the other aspects in place...

I don't think badgers need the protected status they currently have - but there are numpties out there who still bait...  Animal welfare legislation should deal with that - but it's woefully inadequate at sentencing level...

Sorry...  Just realised that all sounds rather rambling...


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## Miss L Toe (24 May 2012)

martlin said:



			Go on, help us out with some grand ideas... We're simple people, can't come up with ways to separate them.
		
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Obviously go back to the 1950's ... tie up cattle by the necks but keep in stalls all the year round, close all the doors to prevent Badger access.
You need to keep all farm animals like this, no outdoor animals at all, then badgers and deer can rove the countryside in complete freedom.
I think that as horse owners we should stand up to the plate and show these pesky farmers how easy it is to change their outdated practices by stabling all our horses then locking the stable doors, obviously we must not go out and about in the countryside in case of spreading infection on our hooves.  Then for extra biosecurity we need to put up proper chain link fencing topped with razor wire, just in case any wildlife try to get in to the premises.


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