# SACKED



## Backtoblack (21 December 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-59728476


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## Backtoblack (21 December 2021)

Good news


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## Fern007 (21 December 2021)

Good news.  Feel for her family though.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 December 2021)

I hope you never lose hold of your Temper even for a second in you life. Yes this wasn’t a good thing to witness but I’ll bet you have felt frustration and acted out. Everyone has at some point in their life. She wasn’t at work, she didn’t hit any children this shirt moment of frustration that she more than likely felt bad about later (as we all do) has lost her her livelihood. I hope you and karma are good


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

This would have involved a multi agency Position of Trust meeting I would have thought as the perpetrator is in a position of trust with children.

The fact that she has allegedly abused an animal would have bearing on her job because she would be thought of as possible danger to children.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			This would have involved a multi agency Position of Trust meeting I would have thought as the perpetrator is in a position of trust with children.

The fact that she has allegedly abused an animal would have bearing on her job because she would be thought of as possible danger to children.
		
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this to me wasn’t animal abuse this was a short fit of frustration. Anyone involved with horses has had one, they are lying if they haven’t. We are all human.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			I hope you never lose hold of your Temper even for a second in you life. Yes this wasn’t a good thing to witness but I’ll bet you have felt frustration and acted out. Everyone has at some point in their life. She wasn’t at work, she didn’t hit any children this shirt moment of frustration that she more than likely felt bad about later (as we all do) has lost her her livelihood. I hope you and karma are good
		
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She is in a position of trust and her actions would have instigated a multi agency Position of Trust meeting.  Regardless of the fact the alleged abuse was targeted towards an animal, the very fact that she has allegedly abused an animal would have bearing on her job because she would be thought of as possible endangerment and threat towards children.  Losing ones temper so easily could happen in a teacher/child role.

I agree we have all smacked our horses, or most of us have in the heat of the moment.  When Lari bit me the other day he got a smack.  Horses are big animals and are required to have boundaries.  It is not he first time he has bitten me and even though it starts as a playful tug of the sleeve that develops into a nip he has been warned many times.  So I smacked him.  It would never develop into anything other than a light tap on the nose or shoulder and I wouldn't for example get my whip out and beat the living daylights out of him, nor would I kick him.  But I am not in a position of trust so it is not in the public interest to suspend me at my place of work.


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## Backtoblack (21 December 2021)

big difference between chastising the horse for biting or whatever --it needs to be corrected--and abusing it for doing absolutely nothing like this vile woman did in public. makes you wonder what goes on behing closed doors. I think anyone defending this womans activities should question whether or not they are in a position to own an animal its indefensable what she did to that poor horse and anyone supporting her is horrid too
imo.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			She is in a position of trust and her actions would have instigated a multi agency Position of Trust meeting.  Regardless of the fact the alleged abuse was targeted towards an animal, the very fact that she has allegedly abused an animal would have bearing on her job because she would be thought of as possible danger to children.

I agree we have all smacked our horses, or most of us have in the heat of the moment.  When Lari bit me the other day he got a smack.  But I am not in a position of trust.
		
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I am, I’m training a youngster, so should I lose my job because he’s stood in my foot and I’ve smacked him to get off, I’ve been in a position of trust most of my life.  Get a grip and stop being sanctimonious.

As I said I hope all you who feeling good about this are good with karma.


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## Backtoblack (21 December 2021)

ha ha LOL remind me to never sell you or anyone like you one of mine! No wonder the general public think horse people are not so good with people like you defending the indefensable and thinking its ok people like you shouldnt even own a hamster let alone a horse. I also expect that you like tearing defenseless foxes apart for fun. your type usually does, makes them feel big hitting animals because they are so inadequate in normal everyday life. Sad acts.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			I am, I’m training a youngster, so should I lose my job because he’s stood in my foot and I’ve smacked him to get off, I’ve been in a position of trust most of my life.  Get a grip and stop being sanctimonious.

As I said I hope all you who feeling good about this are good with karma.
		
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A smack is a bit different from losing it completely, screaming abuse,and smacking a horse across the face and kicking it in front of a crowd of onlookers.

I am not being sanctimonious at all.  I am explaining the position and why she has been sacked.


*ADDED LATER:* She will have been aware from her safeguarding training (which is mandatory training that all teachers and nursery workers undertake every two years) that her actions were wholly inappropriate.  I can understand why most people would not understand that, I would probably feel the same as you had I not worked in the position I did when I was minute taker for a 'Position of Trust' Team with the Local Authority and gleaned this knowledge.  I would have thought ' well she only smacked a horse and not a child'.  However, she clearly knows behaviour such as this is totally off limits.

The safeguarding training she has undertaken would have been discussed in the POT meeting that would have been held and it would have been thoroughly determined what she had undertaken.  Any gaps in learning would have been suggested but it was obviously a case where additional training would not have made any difference to the situation and I expect this was why it was determined by all parties (multi agency input) that she should be terminated from her position as teacher.


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## SO1 (21 December 2021)

I work for a charity and not with children or animals.

I would probably get sacked if I did something like this. We have a clause in our contract which covers our behaviour outside work. Any behaviour which might impact on the reputation of the charity.


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## greenbean10 (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			A smack is a bit different from losing it completely, screaming abuse,and smacking a horse across the face and kicking it in front of a crowd of onlookers.

I am not being sanctimonious at all.  I am explaining the position and why she has been sacked.
		
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100%. How anyone can’t see the difference between what this woman did and smacking a horse when it’s done something wrong is beyond me. 

I’ve lost my temper with my horse and giving him a smack (and felt bad about it after!), but kicking it and smacking it multiple times in the face is inexcusable. Not to mention the fact that the horse didn’t even do anything wrong.


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## pistolpete (21 December 2021)

Abuse is abuse I’m pleased she’s been sacked. No one is perfect of course but she knew there were people around watching and didn’t give a s!t who saw in that moment!


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## Pinkvboots (21 December 2021)

I can understand that what she did was probably out of frustration but it makes you wonder what else someone is capable of when put under pressure.

I think that's the point of it she displayed a lack of control and when you work with kids it's not acceptable, I can imagine a lot of parents wouldn't be happy with her being responsible for there children.


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## sbloom (21 December 2021)

PinkvSantasboots said:



			I can understand that what she did was probably out of frustration but it makes you wonder what else someone is capable of when put under pressure.

I think that's the point of it she displayed a lack of control and when you work with kids it's not acceptable, I can imagine a lot of parents wouldn't be happy with her being responsible for there children.
		
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This.  I feel we're going a bit too far, and that this is now a surveillance nation, without even worrying about cctv.  She stepped over the line, for sure, what she did was pretty vile and needed a reprimand, but I think sacking her seems OTT.  If there was evidence that she behaves like this routinely then that's a different matter.  I don't know anything about safeguarding so it's only my perspective.

There but for the grace of God go all of us - this is where the line is now, but where will it be drawn next time?  The slap on the nose for biting?  Is +R (something I'm a big fan of, and bear in mind I don't have my own horses these days anyway) the only threshold for acceptable behaviour with animals?


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## windand rain (21 December 2021)

I am actually horrified by that  decision what she did was wrong but to be sacked due to a social media trial is abhorrent. Perhaps there is more to it but the gist of it is someone filmed a moment in time and she lost her job scary stuff


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## eahotson (21 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			I hope you never lose hold of your Temper even for a second in you life. Yes this wasn’t a good thing to witness but I’ll bet you have felt frustration and acted out. Everyone has at some point in their life. She wasn’t at work, she didn’t hit any children this shirt moment of frustration that she more than likely felt bad about later (as we all do) has lost her her livelihood. I hope you and karma are good
		
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Agree and unless their was more to this than meets the eye all I can say is I have seen MUCH worse at shows, sometimes in the ring.


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## eahotson (21 December 2021)

At a show I saw a quite well known show jumper do the following. He ran out of steam at an approach to a fence,he is a big lad. He upended his whip leaned across and dealt his horse a very hard blow on the ribs.Nothing was said. I complained to the BSJA and pointed out that it was all on camera.They did reply and say they were looking into it but he is still going. That horse must have had quite a bruise the next day.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

windand rain said:



			I am actually horrified by that  decision what she did was wrong but to be sacked due to a social media trial is abhorrent. Perhaps there is more to it but the gist of it is someone filmed a moment in time and she lost her job scary stuff
		
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Please read my reply (reply 7).  She was not sacked due to a social media trial.  Her employee would have had to follow employment guidelines and safeguarding guidelines as I explained in my reply.


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## smolmaus (21 December 2021)

eahotson said:



			At a show I saw a quite well known show jumper do the following. He ran out of steam at an approach to a fence,he is a big lad. He upended his whip leaned across and dealt his horse a very hard blow on the ribs.Nothing was said. I complained to the BSJA and pointed out that it was all on camera.They did reply and say they were looking into it but he is still going. That horse must have had quite a bruise the next day.
		
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You reported it, you did what you could, the fault lies with the BSJA. It is unfortunate that a lot of institutions will sweep things like this under the rug or look the other way because they can't be bothered. If more people made a point of complaining and filming things it would be easier to push for punishing this kind of behaviour. 

I do think there is a difference between an over zealous correction (I do still think what you describe is wrong) and what was seen on video here which was a woman just losing her temper and taking it out on a horse who had actually done nothing wrong at all.


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## Upthecreek (21 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			I am, I’m training a youngster, so should I lose my job because he’s stood in my foot and I’ve smacked him to get off, I’ve been in a position of trust most of my life.  Get a grip and stop being sanctimonious.

As I said I hope all you who feeling good about this are good with karma.
		
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I think that’s unfair RC. There is a difference between using discipline in a calm and controlled manner for training and losing your temper and lashing out, which is what happened in this case - the horse did nothing wrong and the punishment did not fit the crime. I do not think what she did was is any way acceptable regardless of what scenarios you compare it to. 

There are many occupations where behaviour like this outside of work is not acceptable because of the type of job they do and the negative impact on the employer’s reputation. As a parent I would certainly be concerned if she was my child’s teacher.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

eahotson said:



			Agree and unless their was more to this than meets the eye all I can say is I have seen MUCH worse at shows, sometimes in the ring.
		
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Yes but the difference is that that showjumper is not in a position of trust. He does not interact with young people in his role of employment. If he did then the same as I wrote in reply 7 would apply to him.  All BSJA coaches also undergo safeguard training https://www.britishshowjumping.co.uk/training/Safeguarding-Workshops as well as anyone who works in a position of trust in a horse related industry.

Obviously these cases require referral by someone in order to set the ball rolling.   A lot of our cases came via the NSPCC for example.

But everyone who is in a position of trust has safeguarding training and are aware of what is and isn't appropriate behaviour whilst away from their place of employment.  Everyone who works with children and young people are aware of what it acceptable behaviour outside the confines of their workplace.  So should not complain if they get sacked for something that is totally unacceptable behaviour.   This applies to sports coaches, teachers, doctors, nurses, nursery workers, etc, etc.

An example would be if a nursery worker smacked her child in a nursery setting and was seen by a colleague and reported.   If she chose to smack her child in the confines of her home this was acceptable (classed as reasonable punishment).  But if she chose to smack it in a nursery setting it would certainly not be. A big no no.

It is illegal for teachers, nursery workers and child care workers to smack another person’s child. If a person is employed privately by a parent, such as a babysitter or nanny, the parent may give permission for that person to smack their child as long as it is reasonable and does not amount to an offence.  Many people think of smacking as an old-fashioned and harmful practice, that only serves to reinforce the idea that violence is the way to resolve a problem or get someone to do what you want.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Please read my reply (reply 7).  She was not sacked due to a social media trial.  Her employee would have had to follow employment guidelines and safeguarding guidelines as I explained in my reply.
		
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I take it that you meant her employer and I am not convinced that if she was employed under School Teachers Pay *Conditions, that her dismissal is legal.  Of course she might not have been employed under  STPCD, as I believe that she worked in a private school.

ETA, she was not filmed smacking a child.  Your example of a nursery worker smacking someone else's child at work is so completely different as to be irrelevant.   Under STPCD, employees can be dismissed if they break the law outside of work, hitting a horse is not against the law.


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## eahotson (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Yes but the difference is that that showjumper is not in a position of trust. He does not interact with young people in his role of employment. If he did then the same as I wrote in reply 7 would apply to him.

Obviously these cases require referral by someone in order to set the ball rolling.   A lot of our cases came via the NSPCC for example.

But everyone who is in a position of trust has safeguarding training and are aware of what is and isn't appropriate behaviour whilst away from their place of employment.  Everyone who works with children and young people are aware of what it acceptable behaviour outside the confines of their workplace.  So should not complain if they get sacked for something that is totally unacceptable behaviour.   This applies to sports coaches, teachers, doctors, nurses, nursery workers, etc, etc.

An example would be if a nursery worker smacked her child in a nursery setting and was seen by a colleague and reported.   If she chose to smack her child in the confines of her home this was acceptable.  But if she chose to smack it in a nursery setting it would certainly not be.

It is illegal for teachers, nursery workers and child care workers to smack another person’s child. If a person is employed privately by a parent, such as a babysitter or nanny, the parent may give permission for that person to smack their child as long as it is reasonable and does not amount to an offence.
		
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Cruelty is cruelty and while he may not work directly with young people he will be watched by many youngsters who will think if he does something like that it must be OK..


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

eahotson said:



			Cruelty is cruelty and while he may not work directly with young people he will be watched by many youngsters who will think if he does something like that it must be OK..
		
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Oh yes I don't dispute that.

My partner in his role as Head Groundsman at a large equestrian competition centre in the Midlands used to do a lot of pole picking and collecting ring stewarding and saw abuse metered out on horses on an almost weekly basis in the show ring environment.

 I remember stood next to him talking to him whilst he was pole picking at a BSJA event.  A lady fell off her horse when it refused a fence during her round in the main arena and he immediately knew what was going to happen so had one of the lads cover him whilst he shot out of the arena to follow her into the collecting ring where she had borrowed a stick of someone and was knocking seven shades of s**t out of the said horse. He told her to leave the premises immediately and reported her to the show secretary.

But this thread is about a teacher who is in a position of trust being sacked for hitting a horse and I was trying to explain that the SJ wasn't in a position of trust.


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## chocolategirl (21 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			this to me wasn’t animal abuse this was a short fit of frustration. Anyone involved with horses has had one, they are lying if they haven’t. We are all human.
		
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So if she’d lost her temper and ‘acted out’ as you call it against a child, would that also have been ok because ‘we’ve all done it’ apparently?


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			She was not sacked due to a social media trial
		
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Yes she was.  If it hadn't been filmed and gone viral it would have been talked about locally for a day or two and forgotten.  
.


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## eahotson (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Oh yes I don't dispute that.

My partner in his role as Head Groundsman at a large equestrian competition centre in the Midlands used to do a lot of pole picking and collecting ring stewarding and saw abuse metered out on horses on an almost weekly basis in the show ring environment.

I remember stood next to him talking to him whilst he was pole picking at a BSJA event.  A lady fell off her horse when it refused a fence during her round in the main arena and he immediately knew what was going to happen so had one of the lads cover him whilst he shot out of the arena to follow her into the collecting ring where she had borrowed a stick of someone and was knocking seven shades of s**t out of the said horse. He told her to leave the premises immediately and reported her to the show secretary.

But this thread is about a teacher who is in a position of trust being sacked for hitting a horse and I was trying to explain that the SJ wasn't in a position of trust.
		
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Well OK but in the great scheme of things, while what she did was definately wrong it wasn't THAT bad. She should have been reprimanded and warned as to her future conduct but sacking her seems a bit OTT unless of course, she was already on a warning for something else and this was just the last straw.


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

chocolategirl said:



			So if she’d lost her temper and ‘acted out’ as you call it against a child
		
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She didn't.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 December 2021)

chocolategirl said:



			So if she’d lost her temper and ‘acted out’ as you call it against a child, would that also have been ok because ‘we’ve all done it’ apparently?
		
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that is no comparison


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

eahotson said:



			Well OK but in the great scheme of things, while what she did was definately wrong it wasn't THAT bad. She should have been reprimanded and warned as to her future conduct but sacking her seems a bit OTT unless of course, she was already on a warning for something else and this was just the last straw.
		
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I would even dispute that level of disciplinary action being appropriate for the 'crime' of hitting a horse outside of work.


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## eahotson (21 December 2021)

We have


chocolategirl said:



			So if she’d lost her temper and ‘acted out’ as you call it against a child, would that also have been ok because ‘we’ve all done it’ apparently?
		
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We have all done both from time to time and then felt guilty afterwards and apologized.Who hasn't lost their temper with a child when they have been very worried,tired,ill etc. Hopefully the worst that has happened is that they have shouted a lot.


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## eahotson (21 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			I would even dispute that level of disciplinary action being appropriate for the 'crime' of hitting a horse outside of work.
		
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Well she did over react a bit and there may well have been children watching who knew her and thought that if "Miss" was doing that it was OK. There may have been other parents who decided not to send their children to that school because of that.


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			I would even dispute that level of disciplinary action being appropriate for the 'crime' of hitting a horse outside of work.
		
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If this case was taken to court I think it is very likely that her defence would show  video of professionals and Olympic athletes beating horses with whips.  It's likely she would be found not guilty,  but if guilty this would be no more than a very small fine as a penalty.

To lose her job as a result of a hunt saboteur viral social media campaign is out of all proportion to the crime.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

eahotson said:



			She should have been reprimanded and warned as to her future conduct but sacking her seems a bit OTT unless of course, she was already on a warning for something else and this was just the last straw.
		
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It would seem that this is more likely.


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## smolmaus (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Yes she was.  If it hadn't been filmed and gone viral it would have been talked about locally for a day or two and forgotten. 
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Would this have been the right thing to have happen though? If her employers thought this was a sackable offence surely it was a sackable offense whether she was filmed doing it or not. The only thing filming and posting on social media has done is prevent it being pushed under the rug.


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

smolmaus said:



			Would this have been the right thing to have happen though? If her employers thought this was a sackable offence surely it was a sackable offense whether she was filmed doing it or not. The only thing filming and posting on social media has done is prevent it being pushed under the rug.
		
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I would be 99% certain that she was sacked to "protect the reputation of the school" , ie get it out of the news,  and stop the onslaught of demands she be sacked,  and not because of the actual offence.


ETA we have a lifetime career teacher and ex head saying on this thread that this offence did not merit summary dismissal.


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## smolmaus (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			I would be 99% certain that she was sacked to "protect the reputation of the school" and stop the onslaught of demands she be sacked,  and not because of the actual offence.
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That would also have been the case if a parent or children had been present and seen her without a camera. The offense would still be the same, she just loses plausible deniability.


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## myheartinahoofbeat (21 December 2021)

It's her family I feel sorry for. The article is on the front page of all the papers.


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## Cortez (21 December 2021)

When you look at what often happens to people who are prosecuted under the law for actual, real cruelty to animals (I.e. very little), it seems somewhat disproportionate.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			ETA, she was not filmed smacking a child.  Your example of a nursery worker smacking someone else's child at work is so completely different as to be irrelevant.   Under STPCD, employees can be dismissed if they break the law outside of work, hitting a horse is not against the law.
		
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Oh dear.  No its not relevant.  But I thought as we were on the subject, people might be interested in an example. And also to try and explain that people who are in a position of trust like the lady who hit the horse, know absolutely that their actions will/could bring about serious repercussions.

She didn't hit a child but the inference is that she 'could/might'.  And the level of risk I assume was assessed and found to be unacceptable to allow her to continue in her position.


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

smolmaus said:



			That would also have been the case if a parent or children had been present and seen her without a camera. The offense would still be the same, she just loses plausible deniability.
		
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The offence was trivial.  The penalty is wholly disproportionate.

If we ruin people's livelihoods and careers for slapping a pony what do we do to those who 



Spoiler: upsetting content



microwave a kitten


- hang them?
.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			It would seem that this is more likely.
		
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how do you know? How do any of us know. I’m still waiting on anyone saying they have never lost their temper.


Birker2020 said:



			Oh dear.  No its not relevant.  But I thought as we were on the subject, people might be interested in an example. And also to try and explain that people who are in a position of trust like the lady who hit the horse, know absolutely that their actions will/could bring about serious repercussions.

She didn't hit a child but the inference is that she 'could'.  And the level of risk was assessed and found to be unacceptable to allow her to continue in her position.
		
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Any parent could hit their child out of frustration. Should all children be removed because of what ‘might’ happen.

Again an poor poor example to use. This has been a knee jerk reaction and I hope this poor teacher takes this to tribunal.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

smolmaus said:



			The only thing filming and posting on social media has done is prevent it being pushed under the rug.
		
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Exactly.  And someone somewhere thought that there was a likely inference that this could be passed on due to her role as teacher and quite rightly reported her actions.


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## Tarragon (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			To lose her job as a result of a hunt saboteur viral social media campaign is out of all proportion to the crime.
		
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This, exactly.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 December 2021)

Birker I’ve just ignored you as honestly you have no clue what the hell you are talking about however you still persist in making ridiculous examples. The amount of pure speculation you are spouting off when you know absolutely nothing of this case for fact is quite telling


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			I would be 99% certain that she was sacked to "protect the reputation of the school" , ie get it out of the news,  and stop the onslaught of demands she be sacked,  and not because of the actual offence.


ETA we have a lifetime career teacher and ex head saying on this thread that this offence did not merit summary dismissal.
		
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Well I am only a minute taker who sat over 200 meetings for which a good third were about school environments.  I can only explain it from my perspective and from my experience gained whilst in that position for nearly two years.  I doubt that the 

“Unacceptable professional conduct” is misconduct of a serious nature, falling significantly short of the standard of behaviour expected of a teacher. 
https://assets.publishing.service.g...r_misconduct-the_prohibition_of_teachers_.pdf


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## cauda equina (21 December 2021)

All those saying her punishment didn't fit her crime - well the pony's punishment didn't fit his 'crime' (ie none) either
Sometimes things are just really unfair


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			Birker I’ve just ignored you as honestly you have no clue what the hell you are talking about however you still persist in making ridiculous examples. The amount of pure speculation you are spouting off when you know absolutely nothing of this case for fact is quite telling
		
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I haven't made ridiculous examples, just provided information to give an example of what constitutes a position of trust as a lot of people wouldn't be aware and might be interested.  The nursery worker example wasn't relevant to this but then I never said it was.  I haven't speculated on anything either.


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## LEC (21 December 2021)

It’s not my style to quote the bible being the atheist I am but I feel very strongly on this case that ‘let those without sin cast the first stone’

what she did was crap, but everyday I see crap that goes on and on. Fat horses being fed towards illness, bad riding, incorrect punishment for the riders fault, punishment for not having put in correct training but that’s all fine. Know better, to do better.


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## smolmaus (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			The offence was trivial.  The penalty is wholly disproportionate.

If we ruin people's livelihoods and careers for slapping a pony what do we do to those who 



Spoiler: upsetting content



microwave a kitten


- hang them?
.
		
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The penalty isn't for the general public to decide though. If her employer thought she wasn't worth keeping on as a teacher with this to deal with (safeguarding concerns aside as that is not something I know a lot about) then that is their decision to make. She has every right to take that to a tribunal of course to make sure the reaction was proportionate. Good luck to her I guess. 

People have lost their jobs for far less honestly.


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## YorksG (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			I haven't made ridiculous examples, just provided information to give an example of what constitutes a position of trust as a lot of people wouldn't be aware and might be interested.  The nursery worker example wasn't relevant to this but then I never said it was.  I haven't speculated on anything either.
		
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Well yes you did speculate, that she was already "on a warning" for her conduct


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## Mrs. Jingle (21 December 2021)

I can only guess that there is probably more to this than we the public are aware of. It is entirely possible the school may have on record some other complaints about this woman. This very public display of losing her temper might have been an accumulation of concerns that they already had about her suitability to be in charge of children? 🤷


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

LEC said:



			It’s not my style to quite the bible being the atheist I am but I feel very strongly on this case that ‘let those without sin cast the first stone’

what she did was crap, but everyday I see crap that goes on and on. Fat horses being fed towards illness, bad riding, incorrect punishment for the riders fault, punishment for not having out in correct training but that’s all fine.
		
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I'm afraid you are missing the point.  Read reply 7.  Bad riding, fat horses etc do not have the potential and it the word is 'potential' to cause harm to children or young people.  The risk was assessed.  The decision made.  End of.


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## Not_so_brave_anymore (21 December 2021)

My initial reaction was "shit- I'm a teacher, and I have definitely slapped a pony with an open hand" (usually 0.3 seconds after said pony has taken a chunk out of me). 

But, I haven't brought myself to watch the whole video, and it sounds like this was something of a sustained attack, not one slap? Also, the fact that someone thought to film this, and had the time to get their phone ready, makes me think she probably had form for behaving like this, and at least one person had been waiting to catch it on camera?


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## smolmaus (21 December 2021)

LEC said:



			It’s not my style to quite the bible being the atheist I am but I feel very strongly on this case that ‘let those without sin cast the first stone’

what she did was crap, but everyday I see crap that goes on and on. Fat horses being fed towards illness, bad riding, incorrect punishment for the riders fault, punishment for not having out in correct training but that’s all fine.
		
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Nobody is saying any of that is fine though, that is very straw-man-y. There is enough "oh that's dodgy we should say something so it doesn't continue" to go around for everyone. Holding people to a decent standard isn't a finite resource.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

FestiveG said:



			Well yes you did speculate, that she was already "on a warning" for her conduct
		
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No I said ' It would seem that this is more likely' .  I didn't say 'yes she was already on a warning for her conduct'.  Likely meaning possible.  Talk about being misquoted.


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## YorksG (21 December 2021)

Not_so_brave_anymore said:



			My initial reaction was "shit- I'm a teacher, and I have definitely slapped a pony with an open hand" (usually 0.3 seconds after said pony has taken a chunk out of me).

But, I haven't brought myself to watch the whole video, and it sounds like this was something of a sustained attack, not one slap? Also, the fact that someone thought to film this, and had the time to get their phone ready, makes me think she probably had form for behaving like this, and at least one person had been waiting to catch it on camera?
		
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The filming was done by hunt sabs, who having had nothing illegal to film during the hunt, then took to filming people loading to go home.


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## YorksG (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			No I said ' It would seem that this is more likely' .  I didn't say 'yes she was already on a warning for her conduct'.
		
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Still speculation


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

Not_so_brave_anymore said:



			My initial reaction was "shit- I'm a teacher, and I have definitely slapped a pony with an open hand" (usually 0.3 seconds after said pony has taken a chunk out of me).

But, I haven't brought myself to watch the whole video, and it sounds like this was something of a sustained attack, not one slap? Also, the fact that someone thought to film this, and had the time to get their phone ready, makes me think she probably had form for behaving like this, and at least one person had been waiting to catch it on camera?
		
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I assumed a hunt sab had filmed it but I honestly can't remember how it came about now.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Well I am only a minute taker who sat over 200 meetings for which a good third were about school environments.  I can only explain it from my perspective and from my experience gained whilst in that position for nearly two years.  I doubt that the

“Unacceptable professional conduct” is misconduct of a serious nature, falling significantly short of the standard of behaviour expected of a teacher.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...r_misconduct-the_prohibition_of_teachers_.pdf

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Which hitting a horse is not.  You  honestly have no idea what you are talking about.  I hope the poor woman at the centre of this fiasco does take her employer to ET.  IMO, with the facts that I have to hand (which might not be all of them), she would win, hands down.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

FestiveG said:



			Still speculation
		
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You can hardly hold me accountable for speculation. This whole thread has been speculation throughout.  I was just giving my perspective.


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

Not_so_brave_anymore said:



			Also, the fact that someone thought to film this, and had the time to get their phone ready, makes me think she probably had form for behaving like this, and at least one person had been waiting to catch it on camera?
		
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It was filmed by hunt saboteurs who routinely film even legal hunting. 

ETA Already said,  but I'm anti fox hunting and still think this is unacceptable.  
.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			Any parent could hit their child out of frustration. Should all children be removed because of what ‘might’ happen.

.
		
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We are not talking about her children though are we?  We are talking about her role as teacher and the inference that the level of risk was assessed and for whatever reasons it was determined that she could no longer work in her role as teacher.  We do not know if there were additional risks or not as we are not party to that information.  But these decisions aren't taken lightly and the school would not be allowed to sack someone as a knee jerk reaction to a film or to parents without a full investigation having taken place.

I tried to explain about how POT worked and gave a random example to explain.  Perhaps I should have chosen a better example, I just couldn't think of one at the time.  At no point did I ever say this person who I do not know and have never met would/could/did hit a child.  I have just explained how the system works and if you read the brochure I attached on an earlier post you would see that.


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## DressageCob (21 December 2021)

I'm a bit conflicted on this. 

Her treatment of the horse was unjustified and stupid. it was stupid because not only were "animal rights activists" watching, but it was completely counter-productive. The loose horse had gone over to her to be caught and she responded by repeatedly smacking it round the face. Next time it gets loose it might not be so keen to be caught. 

In many professions I don't think that video would affect your work. However, I can see how a school would have an issue. It's their reputation, but it's also the effect of the footage on the children and their relationship with their teacher. If 8 year old me had seen my teacher do that to a pony there is no way I would be respectful of her going forward. Because a child doesn't understand the frustration, worry, stress or anything else which might have caused her reaction to the horse. 

I don't think school teachers are alone in this response to out of work conduct of this nature. In my industry too I expect if there were footage of me treating an animal that way it could be argued to be against my code of conduct, because it would affect the public's perception of me and/or my profession, even though my work is unrelated. 

Ultimately, I can understand the decision but I can also see that it appears disproportionate when compared with the minimal hours of community service given to some animal abusers. The difference is, of course, that this is not a criminal sentence.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			You can hardly hold me accountable for speculation. This whole thread has been speculation throughout.  I was just giving my perspective.  

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No it hasn't, OP told us that the woman involved was sacked.  That is not speculation, it is fact.  Certainly your posts have all been specualtion but of the rest posters either agreed with the dismissal or disagreed, neither of which are speculation. I'm afraid minute-taking does not qualify you to comment on the outcome of investigations.


As I said above, I can only specualte myself that she was employed in a private school,which does not work to STPCD.It is of course always possible that her private school contract has a clause about not hitting animals in full view of hunt-saboteurs but that does seem unlikely.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			I'm afraid minute-taking does not qualify you to comment on the outcome of investigations.
		
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I didn't say it did.  Its in the public realm and therefore I am entitled to give my opinion, like you have given your opinion and like everyone else on this thread have given their opinion. 

I may have given the same opinion if I had not worked on a Position of Trust team. But with the knowledge I gained whilst working there for 2 years I understand more than the average lay person how these things work.  I'm sorry if you disagree with 'the punishment not fitting the crime' but I expect experienced professionals with many many years experience will have risk assessed the situation and drawn the conclusion they have drawn. And there may or may not be additional reasons why they came to the conclusion they did, none of us can know.  I have not speculated anymore than anyone else so please try to stop getting a rise out of me all the time because its getting increasingly boring and laborious.


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## Upthecreek (21 December 2021)

I wouldn’t want her teaching my children, not because I would be concerned she would lose her temper and hit them, but because how she behaved does not meet my expectations of behaviour for a teacher who should be setting an example to children and young people. That is a major part of her job and is wholly relevant to why she has lost her job as a consequence of her actions.


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## YorksG (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			I didn't say it did.  Its in the public realm and therefore I am entitled to give my opinion, like you have given your opinion and like everyone else on this thread have given their opinion.

I may have given the same opinion if I had not worked on a Position of Trust team. But with the knowledge I gained whilst working there for 2 years I understand more than the average lay person how these things work.  I'm sorry if you disagree with 'the punishment not fitting the crime' but I expect experienced professionals with many many years experience will have risk assessed the situation and drawn the conclusion they have drawn. And there may or may not be additional reasons why they came to the conclusion they did, none of us can know.  I have not speculated anymore than anyone else so please try to stop getting a rise out of me all the time because its getting increasingly boring and laborious.
		
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The thread and the posts are not about you, although you do seem determined to make it so! Other people, perhaps worth more experience of such events are also entitled to give their perspective, on the known facts.


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## ihatework (21 December 2021)

On the face of it, despite this ladies awful behaviour, the punishment does seem too extreme for the crime. I however understand how this has played out and why the school didn’t feel they had any other option.

What none of us know however is this ladies disciplinary history or her general behaviour both at work and during the investigation. If that is squeaky clean then I’d lean towards it being a harsh punishment - but if she has ‘form’ it could be entirely appropriate?


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

FestiveG said:



			The thread and the posts are not about you, although you do seem determined to make it so! Other people, perhaps worth more experience of such events are also entitled to give their perspective, on the known facts.
		
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You must be reading a different thread to me then.  And I have not stopped anyone giving their perspective.   

Are their any teachers or heads, remembering all you learnt during safeguarding training disagree with anything I have said? I stand to be corrected if I have said anything wrong although I am certain I have only given my opinion borne out of experience.


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## planete (21 December 2021)

This was a sustained attack on an animal.  Ok, I will say it:  I have never carried out a sustained attack on any animal or person and I would have serious reservations about putting such a person in  charge of any child or an animal of mine as they obviously have not got the self control to keep their anger within reasonable bounds.  It is however dubious whether such a drastic decision as sacking is legal and appropriate.  A warning and being put on notice that any further anger management problems would need to be addressed would have been a fairer response IMO.


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## ester (21 December 2021)

I'd presumed it was more 'bringing school into disrepute' than any sort of safeguarding issue.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

ester said:



			I'd presumed it was more 'bringing school into disrepute' than any sort of safeguarding issue.
		
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Maybe its a bit of both, who knows. I daren't say anything in case I am accused of  'speculating'.


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## Upthecreek (21 December 2021)

ester said:



			I'd presumed it was more 'bringing school into disrepute' than any sort of safeguarding issue.
		
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I’m sure it was. I don’t think the fact it was at a hunt helped either.


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## Lammy (21 December 2021)

I can see why the school sacked her. Her actions towards the horse cast serious doubt over her ability to control her temper. So whether that has ever translated into the classroom or not, as a teacher with sole charge of children I can see why that individual now can’t be completely trusted.

I would much rather safeguarding rules be harsher than too relaxed. Recent news stories would show that a lack of safeguarding can have terrible results 😢


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## onemoretime (21 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			Which hitting a horse is not.  You  honestly have no idea what you are talking about.  I hope the poor woman at the centre of this fiasco does take her employer to ET.  IMO, with the facts that I have to hand (which might not be all of them), she would win, hands down.
		
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Yes Pearlsacarolsinger I also hopes this lady takes it to a Tribunal and I hope she wins.  The whole situation has been blown out of all proportion.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 December 2021)

Lammy said:



			I can see why the school sacked her. Her actions towards the horse cast serious doubt over her ability to control her temper. So whether that has ever translated into the classroom or not, as a teacher with sole charge of children I can see why that individual now can’t be completely trusted.

I would much rather safeguarding rules be harsher than too relaxed. Recent news stories would show that a lack of safeguarding can have terrible results 😢
		
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how completely ridiculous. Most of you commenting seem to have no experience of teaching or working with children. I do daily. For 45hrs a week. I have been frustrated, I have been annoyed, I have been up to my elbows in pee, poo and vomit, have been vomited on on several occasions. I have been assaulted by teenagers, I have been threatened by teenagers. None of this has driven me in my position of responsibility to hurt a child despite the fact I’ve reprimanded any number of horses in my over 30 odd years of life.

Smacking a horse doesn’t translate that you will hurt a child.


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## Upthecreek (21 December 2021)

onemoretime said:



			Yes Pearlsacarolsinger I also hopes this lady takes it to a Tribunal and I hope she wins.  The whole situation has been blown out of all proportion.
		
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Genuine question, I am not being facetious. The fact is the woman has been filmed hitting and kicking a horse, regardless of the reasons why it happened. If you are saying that the whole situation has been blown out of all proportion, do you think that a teacher hitting and kicking a horse is an acceptable example of behaviour to  set to children? Yes or no.


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## sbloom (21 December 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			Genuine question, I am not being facetious. The fact is the woman has been filmed hitting and kicking a horse, regardless of the reasons why it happened. If you are saying that the whole situation has been blown out of all proportion, do you think that a teacher hitting and kicking a horse is an acceptable example of behaviour to  set to children? Yes or no.
		
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If you take that to its furthest extent then it means she must at all times only ever act in a way that is a good example to her pupils.   Where would that stop?  Could she go out and get massively drunk and make a fool of herself? Could she use foul language in public?  I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of things we all might do at times which are far from a great example to set to a child but which would not impact in any way our ability to teach them.  Surely?


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## Lammy (21 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			how completely ridiculous. Most of you commenting seem to have no experience of teaching or working with children. I do daily. For 45hrs a week. I have been frustrated, I have been annoyed, I have been up to my elbows in pee, poo and vomit, have been vomited on on several occasions. I have been assaulted by teenagers, I have been threatened by teenagers. None of this has driven me in my position of responsibility to hurt a child despite the fact I’ve reprimanded any number of horses in my over 30 odd years of life.

Smacking a horse doesn’t translate that you will hurt a child.
		
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But that isn’t reprimanding a horse in that video is it? That is a complete loss of temper, an absurd overreaction and her taking her frustration out on an animal. We’re not talking about a quick smack or controlled correction.

That is why I said reasonable doubt has now been cast over her own ability to control her temper in frustrating situations.  And I think reasonable doubt is enough to terminate employment from a safe guarding point of view, I’m not saying she is likely to go and smack children in her care but the trust has been lost. 

I have worked with children in the past though and now primarily work in a safeguarding role for vulnerable people so I can fully understand why this video has translated the way it has. People have lost jobs at my work for far less.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

onemoretime said:



			The whole situation has been blown out of all proportion.
		
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No it hasn't.  

And she has a right to appeal so if she wants to which will have already been explained to her.


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## Upthecreek (21 December 2021)

sbloom said:



			If you take that to its furthest extent then it means she must at all times only ever act in a way that is a good example to her pupils.   Where would that stop?  Could she go out and get massively drunk and make a fool of herself? Could she use foul language in public?  I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of things we all might do at times which are far from a great example to set to a child but which would not impact in any way our ability to teach them.  Surely?
		
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But we aren’t talking about having a few too many on a Saturday night. We are talking about hitting and kicking a horse in public, which was filmed and has been viewed by millions. If people think that is an acceptable example of behaviour for a teacher to set children I’m genuinely interested to hear their reasoning.


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## smolmaus (21 December 2021)

sbloom said:



			If you take that to its furthest extent then it means she must at all times only ever act in a way that is a good example to her pupils.   Where would that stop?  Could she go out and get massively drunk and make a fool of herself? Could she use foul language in public?  I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of things we all might do at times which are far from a great example to set to a child but which would not impact in any way our ability to teach them.  Surely?
		
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I have had to sign a document with work that I won't bring the company into disrepute on social media. I'm an engineer like so hardly any safeguarding issues and it wouldn't affect my ability to do my job, but yeah if I was filmed being a bellend or violent and it got around then I could absolutely lose my job over it. It would speak to general lack of judgement I guess.


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## smolmaus (21 December 2021)

Lammy said:



			But that isn’t reprimanding a horse in that video is it? That is a complete loss of temper, an absurd overreaction and her taking her frustration out on an animal. We’re not talking about a quick smack or controlled correction.
		
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Exactly. A smack in the mouth for biting or any kind of reasonable physical correction (like some are trying to compare this to) would hardly get this kind of attention, would it?


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## ihatework (21 December 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			But we aren’t talking about having a few too many on a Saturday night. We are talking about hitting and kicking a horse in public, which was filmed and has been viewed by millions. If people think that is an acceptable example of behaviour for a teacher to set children I’m genuinely interested to hear their reasoning.
		
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I don’t think anyone has said it’s acceptable example of behaviour to set to children 🤷‍♀️

It’s vile behaviour. But does it automatically become a safeguarding issue? I’m not convinced.

The alcohol comparison is completely valid. A drunken night and bad behaviour on social media is equally not suitable for children. If you want to extrapolate that out to the school setting you could claim the teacher was a raving drunk and it’s a safeguarding issue.


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## sbloom (21 December 2021)

smolmaus said:



			Exactly. A smack in the mouth for biting or any kind of reasonable physical correction (like some are trying to compare this to) would hardly get this kind of attention, would it?
		
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I think we're all worried about where the line gets drawn, not that any of us thought that behaviour was acceptable. And at what point it warrants sacking, not that it should not be punished.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 December 2021)

Lammy said:



			But that isn’t reprimanding a horse in that video is it? That is a complete loss of temper, an absurd overreaction and her taking her frustration out on an animal. We’re not talking about a quick smack or controlled correction.

That is why I said reasonable doubt has now been cast over her own ability to control her temper in frustrating situations.  And I think reasonable doubt is enough to terminate employment from a safe guarding point of view, I’m not saying she is likely to go and smack children in her care but the trust has been lost.

I have worked with children in the past though and now primarily work in a safeguarding role for vulnerable people so I can fully understand why this video has translated the way it has. People have lost jobs at my work for far less.
		
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And tribunals have forced employers to apologise and payout with less public proof. If this hadn’t been filmed the woman wouldn’t have been any less thought of. This is a very slippery slope that many of you are happy to stray down.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			Smacking a horse doesn’t translate that you will hurt a child.
		
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No it doesn't, of course it doesn't.  But there is an element of assumed risk and that risk needs to be assessed in the school environment.

But it wasn't just a smack or a tap on the nose. From what I saw it was a full attack on a defenceless animal.  And kicking a horse is never right in any circumstance.

Schools have a duty of care to take any concerns raised against staff seriously and respond promptly. This is regardless of who the person is, what position they hold or how long they've been involved with the school. They will probably also have a code of conduct which sets out the schools expectations and will set out boundaries.  If an allegation of wrong doing is made then an investigation is conducted to find if a person was guilty of unacceptable professional conduct and/or conduct that may bring the profession into disrepute.

I'm sorry you think its an over reaction on the schools part but the woman in question knew what the repercussions would be.  Its only the same if you were a policeman or policewoman, you would be expected to know how to behave in public.


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## sbloom (21 December 2021)

I'm really glad my twenties were before the advent of social media (even my thirties when at least no-one brought phones to pubs and nightclubs on the scale they do now!)!


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 December 2021)

sbloom said:



			I'm really glad my twenties were before the advent of social media (even my thirties when at least no-one brought phones to pubs and nightclubs on the scale they do now!)!
		
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Me too, the dancing on tables, snogging boys and seven shot challenges and beer pong probably would get me sacked if half the people on this thread had it their way.


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## smolmaus (21 December 2021)

sbloom said:



			I think we're all worried about where the line gets drawn, not that any of us thought that behaviour was acceptable. And at what point it warrants sacking, not that it should not be punished.
		
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That's up to every individual employer really though. There is no straight line to be drawn. If she had been employed in a different industry her employers may very well not have cared. The story might not have picked up so much traction with "Waste Management Technician filmed kicking horse, would you want THIS PERSON picking up YOUR BINS?!" as a headline.


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## smolmaus (21 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			Me too, the dancing on tables, snogging boys and seven shot challenges and beer pong probably would get me sacked if half the people on this thread had it their way.
		
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The correct analogy here is probably slapping boys though. She was filmed being violent.


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## ihatework (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			No it doesn't, of course it doesn't.  But there is an element of assumed risk and that risk needs to be assessed in the school environment.

But it wasn't just a smack or a tap on the nose. From what I saw it was a full attack on a defenceless animal.  And kicking a horse is never right in any circumstance.

Schools have a duty of care to take any concerns raised against staff seriously and respond promptly. This is regardless of who the person is, what position they hold or how long they've been involved with the school. They will probably also have a code of conduct which sets out the schools expectations and will set out boundaries.  If an allegation of wrong doing is made then an investigation is conducted to find if a person was guilty of unacceptable professional conduct and/or conduct that may bring the profession into disrepute.
		
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I don’t think anyone is denying that either.

The school would have to go through the process. They are obliged to.

My gut feeling however is the outcome has been swayed by the extent of the social media coverage which is down to political reasons (hunting).

I can see how the school has bowed to what must be considerable pressure. But if I were them I’d be pretty concerned about a wrongful dismissal claim.


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## shortstuff99 (21 December 2021)

Hunt sabs also kept protesting outside the school which was probably also making it difficult.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			I didn't say it did.  Its in the public realm and therefore I am entitled to give my opinion, like you have given your opinion and like everyone else on this thread have given their opinion.

I may have given the same opinion if I had not worked on a Position of Trust team. But with the knowledge I gained whilst working there for 2 years I understand more than the average lay person how these things work.  I'm sorry if you disagree with 'the punishment not fitting the crime' but I expect experienced professionals with many many years experience will have risk assessed the situation and drawn the conclusion they have drawn. And there may or may not be additional reasons why they came to the conclusion they did, none of us can know.  I have not speculated anymore than anyone else so please try to stop getting a rise out of me all the time because its getting increasingly boring and laborious.
		
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You obviously don't understand STPCD. Please don't try to tell me about teachers' disciplinary processes, with the benefit of your 2 yrs as a note-taker.  I worked in/with schools for 40 years.  The last 7 of which I worked with unions and HR dealing with disciplinary and other contractual matters in State funded schools, including Academies - and have had the extensive training to do so.



ETA, if the woman inquestion had been a groom working with my horses, she certainly would have lost her job but she wasn't, so her actions that day are not relevant to her employment.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			You obviously don't understand STPCD. Please don't try to tell me about teachers' disciplinary processes, with the benefit of your 2 yrs as a note-taker.  I worked in/with schools for 40 years.  The last 7 of which I worked with unions and HR dealing with disciplinary and other contractual matters in State funded schools, including Academies - and have had the extensive training to do so.
		
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So what have I said that is incorrect then please?
If I have made a mistake I would be happy to stand corrected.


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

DressageCob said:



			I'm a bit conflicted on this.

Her treatment of the horse was unjustified and stupid. it was stupid because not only were "animal rights activists" watching, but it was completely counter-productive. The loose horse had gone over to her to be caught and she responded by repeatedly smacking it round the face. Next time it gets loose it might not be so keen to be caught.

In many professions I don't think that video would affect your work. However, I can see how a school would have an issue. It's their reputation, but it's also the effect of the footage on the children and their relationship with their teacher. If 8 year old me had seen my teacher do that to a pony there is no way I would be respectful of her going forward. Because a child doesn't understand the frustration, worry, stress or anything else which might have caused her reaction to the horse.

I don't think school teachers are alone in this response to out of work conduct of this nature. In my industry too I expect if there were footage of me treating an animal that way it could be argued to be against my code of conduct, because it would affect the public's perception of me and/or my profession, even though my work is unrelated.

Ultimately, I can understand the decision but I can also see that it appears disproportionate when compared with the minimal hours of community service given to some animal abusers. The difference is, of course, that this is not a criminal sentence.
		
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I get this too.  I think it's worrying but sort of understandable - the school need to be out of the news, they don't need, for any of their children's or families sakes, to be targeted by a vicious media campaign which is absolutely what it would be if the anti-hunt lobby couldn't make an example of this woman because of her association with hunting.   She may or may not have a good record at school; this action may or may not be convenient for the school - who knows?  I don't think she 'deserved' to lose her job over an act of stupidity and temper tbh.  As a hunt supporter I feel pretty aggrieved at her bringing hunting into the news again too but we have all made mistakes.  The pony didn't deserve that attack of temper but probably no harm was done and actually the pony seemed pretty sanguine about it which, for me, suggests that he/she was not expecting to be smacked and that this is not a routine occurrence.  Ime, horses show clearly when they are used to being treated like that - by becoming headshy or evasive of/reactive to the handler.  That is pretty incidental though.

As for the relationship with children and role-model aspect of things; at our local school where my children have been educated a teacher was a strict vegan.  She was a French teacher but stoutly refused to teach the children (even at GCSE level) the names of meat products or any non-vegan food item.  Not only from a philosophical and educational point of view was this unacceptable to me, it also seemed utterly mad in a school where 80+ % of children will have a connection locally to farming; most very directly.  She also told the pupils about her pet dog, that she fed on a vegetarian diet.  Whilst I don't mind how someone lives their life, I thought the former was unacceptable and discussing the latter was unwise.

The pupils at school made it pretty clear this teacher was not respected and she moved on.  I don't know how long the PTA would have had before complaints about her attitudes and behaviour flooded in tbh.   No idea how the school would have dealt with it but I didn't want this teacher to be a role model for my children; from the perspective of her 'forcing' her own views and actions on them educationally.  I have no problem whatsoever with her choices but school isn't the place to parade those choices.  I wouldn't particularly want my children taught by someone who lost their temper with animals either but unless that is brought to attention how would we know?

I don't really know how she should have been 'punished' tbh.  I just think that losing her job because of the filmed incident is too much.


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## Upthecreek (21 December 2021)

ihatework said:



			I don’t think anyone has said it’s acceptable example of behaviour to set to children 🤷‍♀️

It’s vile behaviour. But does it automatically become a safeguarding issue? I’m not convinced.

The alcohol comparison is completely valid. A drunken night and bad behaviour on social media is equally not suitable for children. If you want to extrapolate that out to the school setting you could claim the teacher was a raving drunk and it’s a safeguarding issue.
		
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I’ve never said it’s a safeguarding issue. We can argue until the cows come home about the ‘acceptableness’ of the behaviour and that nothing would have happened if it hadn’t been filmed, but it was and millions of people have seen it. What do you think those people that have no experience or understanding of horses would think of that behaviour towards an animal? I’d think they’d be more horrified and less understanding than we are. If she was filmed drunk and swearing on social media of course this could also potentially have an impact on her job, again not necessarily from a safeguarding point of view, but from the point of view of setting an example to young people because she is a teacher and also damaging the reputation of the school. 

I’m not a teacher or employed to set an example to anyone, but being filmed hitting and kicking a horse or drunkenly shouting and swearing at people would both most likely get me sacked.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			So what have I said that is incorrect then please?
If I have made a mistake I would be happy to stand corrected.
		
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  I have explained it to you several times.  And the examples you gave of cases where you had taken notes and the employee had been dismessed were not relevant.


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## Tiddlypom (21 December 2021)

I do think that she has valid grounds to appeal.

But as a parent, and as a former Parent Governor at a small rural primary school, would I remove my child from a class taught by someone to be shown to have such a short fuse? Most certainly yes. Primary school teachers, amongst other attributes, must have endless patience.

The school and the Education Trust are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. 

It wouldn't bother me a jot if she went naked clubbing every weekend, as long as I had confidence that she would be professional with my child in class.


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## greenbean10 (21 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			how completely ridiculous. Most of you commenting seem to have no experience of teaching or working with children. I do daily. For 45hrs a week. I have been frustrated, I have been annoyed, I have been up to my elbows in pee, poo and vomit, have been vomited on on several occasions. I have been assaulted by teenagers, I have been threatened by teenagers. None of this has driven me in my position of responsibility to hurt a child despite the fact I’ve reprimanded any number of horses in my over 30 odd years of life.

Smacking a horse doesn’t translate that you will hurt a child.
		
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I agree with this. I despise what she did and I think the school had no choice but to fire her to protect their reputation, but I do think there's very little risk that she would lose her temper like that with a child.

I am not a parent but I think the issue is more likely to be that parents don't want someone who treats a horse like that teaching their child, not that they are worried their child is going to be treated in the same way.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			I have explained it to you several times.  And the examples you gave of cases where you had taken notes and the employee had been dismessed were not relevant.
		
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I haven't given any examples of cases where I took notes and the employee had been dismissed. The one example I gave of the nursery worker hitting her own child was a made up example to explain what a possible scenario of a person in such a position and I don't remember anything else?


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## PapaverFollis (21 December 2021)

Here we teeter upon the edge of a purity spiral that ends with none of us owning horses at all.

"There but for the Grace of God go us all" indeed.

She was wrong to do it, of course. She had clearly lost her temper.  I imagine the accumulated stress of teaching over the last couple of years is right there at the surface all the time and it clearly boiled over and it was not nice to see that directed at a pony. But personally I cannot be pleased about someone losing their livelihood because of this weird public surveillance/trial by social media thing we have going on now.

I also think that people have a very high view of their own behaviour and anyone who has got physical with a horse for any reason (justified and well timed or not) is now in the firing line if someone is going to be there with a camera.

Fwiw I was told very clearly when doing teacher training that we were free to be ourselves outside of work, within the bounds of the law obvs, that it would be best to lock down social media, but we were not expected to be held to a higher standard. The whole "you are a role model" thing is a personal choice.  It's all a bit hazy but that was my impression.  This was *just* before the real social media purity spiral insanity efforts properly got going. I suspect trainee teachers are given more cautionary tales these days.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

palo1 said:



			I get this too.  I think it's worrying but sort of understandable - the school need to be out of the news, they don't need, for any of their children's or families sakes, to be targeted by a vicious media campaign which is absolutely what it would be if the anti-hunt lobby couldn't make an example of this woman because of her association with hunting.   She may or may not have a good record at school; this action may or may not be convenient for the school - who knows?  I don't think she 'deserved' to lose her job over an act of stupidity and temper tbh.  As a hunt supporter I feel pretty aggrieved at her bringing hunting into the news again too but we have all made mistakes.  The pony didn't deserve that attack of temper but probably no harm was done and actually the pony seemed pretty sanguine about it which, for me, suggests that he/she was not expecting to be smacked and that this is not a routine occurrence.  Ime, horses show clearly when they are used to being treated like that - by becoming headshy or evasive of/reactive to the handler.  That is pretty incidental though.

As for the relationship with children and role-model aspect of things; at our local school where my children have been educated a teacher was a strict vegan.  She was a French teacher but stoutly refused to teach the children (even at GCSE level) the names of meat products or any non-vegan food item.  Not only from a philosophical and educational point of view was this unacceptable to me, it also seemed utterly mad in a school where 80+ % of children will have a connection locally to farming; most very directly.  She also told the pupils about her pet dog, that she fed on a vegetarian diet.  Whilst I don't mind how someone lives their life, I thought the former was unacceptable and discussing the latter was unwise.

The pupils at school made it pretty clear this teacher was not respected and she moved on.  I don't know how long the PTA would have had before complaints about her attitudes and behaviour flooded in tbh.   No idea how the school would have dealt with it but I didn't want this teacher to be a role model for my children; from the perspective of her 'forcing' her own views and actions on them educationally.  I have no problem whatsoever with her choices but school isn't the place to parade those choices.  I wouldn't particularly want my children taught by someone who lost their temper with animals either but unless that is brought to attention how would we know?

I don't really know how she should have been 'punished' tbh.  I just think that losing her job because of the filmed incident is too much.
		
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Palo, your example is one of a teacher not doing what is paid to do, i.e. teach pupils French to GCSE level, so after a full disciplinary process she would be liable to dismissal, if she continued to refuse to follow the curriculum fully. 

I am amazed that any school feels it can dismiss a teacher for a minor incident like this, at a time when the DfE is begging retired/former teachers to go back into the classroom, 'even for 1 day a week' in order to avoid closing schools.


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## ihatework (21 December 2021)

Sorry up the creek, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

The lady gets sacked if the conduct meets the criteria set out in her contract and the various policies for sacking. Likewise if you displayed those behaviours you would get sacked if it met the relevant criteria for your employment.

It’s an intricate argument, that the lawyers will take on if the lady in question wishes to go there. In a court of law, where you don’t have the  sabs applying as much direct pressure on teachers, parents and children, I suspect the outcome could be in the ladies favour.


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## eahotson (21 December 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			Hunt sabs also kept protesting outside the school which was probably also making it difficult.
		
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That's dreadful.It's becoming bullying.


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			Palo, your example is one of a teacher not doing what is paid to do, i.e. teach pupils French to GCSE level, so after a full disciplinary process she would be liable to dismissal, if she continued to refuse to follow the curriculum fully.

I am amazed that any school feels it can dismiss a teacher for a minor incident like this, at a time when the DfE is begging retired/former teachers to go back into the classroom, 'even for 1 day a week' in order to avoid closing schools.
		
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I quite agree!! I totally understand the difference too between my vegan French teacher and this incident - what I was trying to convey was that even when personal actions/views have a direct impact on education, there is a process which has to be gone through.  Perhaps this teacher was halfway down that road already?  If not, it seems extraordinary to me that she was just dismissed.  It is bad news too as it sets a precedent for any pressure group to see as tactically worthwhile.  I am glad that in the UK we don't have the same Pro Life/Pro Choice groups that the US has, for example...


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

eahotson said:



			That's dreadful.It's becoming bullying.
		
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It has been out and out bullying and harassment for a long time.  The current theme is to harass pubs that provide any form of support to hunts; through the Hunt Sabs 'Huntpubs' tweets.  Horrible stuff.


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## ihatework (21 December 2021)

palo1 said:



			It has been out and out bullying and harassment for a long time.  The current theme is to harass pubs that provide any form of support to hunts; through the Hunt Sabs 'Huntpubs' tweets.  Horrible stuff.
		
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True sabs are vile human beings.
(Difference to the monitors, who engage in activities, reasonably politely and legally, for a cause they believe in).


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## Upthecreek (21 December 2021)

ihatework said:



			Sorry up the creek, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

The lady gets sacked if the conduct meets the criteria set out in her contract and the various policies for sacking. Likewise if you displayed those behaviours you would get sacked if it met the relevant criteria for your employment.

It’s an intricate argument, that the lawyers will take on if the lady in question wishes to go there. In a court of law, where you don’t have the  sabs applying as much direct pressure on teachers, parents and children, I suspect the outcome could be in the ladies favour.
		
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The point I was trying to make, obviously badly, was that you quoted me about safeguarding, when that would not be my concern if she was my child’s teacher.

And that people need to be mindful that their activities and behaviours outside of work can have consequences for their employment.  

I don’t feel she deserves her life to be in ruins and her safety and that of her family to be threatened. She made a mistake and has paid a high price for it.


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## laura_nash (21 December 2021)

I can understand the arguments that it's disproportionate in comparison to the sentences for more serious abuse.  

The problem is though, if this was my daughters teacher, would I allow her to be taught by her again.  Probably not.  Maybe, possibly, if it was a total one off and if there was clear action taken, such as anger management classes for the teacher and some sort of explanation to the pupils that makes it clear it was wrong and a one off.  I certainly wouldn't let her near my animals unless I was certain she had changed and learnt to control herself, so why should I let her near my daughter?  

Maybe I've been lucky, but in many years around horses I've never seen anything as unprovoked and violent as that.  I've over reacted violently when I felt my safety was threatened and felt bad for it afterwards.  I've seen people loose their temper and over react if a horse is acting up and making then feel unsafe or stupid or causing them to lose a competition.  But that wasn't the case here.  

I also don't see why people think it is so impossible she would do the same to a child, since it seemed she was taking out unrelated frustrations on a random creature who can't fight back.


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## honetpot (21 December 2021)

cauda equina said:



			All those saying her punishment didn't fit her crime - well the pony's punishment didn't fit his 'crime' (ie none) either
Sometimes things are just really unfair
		
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It didn't do the pony any good either. It will have gone home, to the same family, and on the scale of things I have seen worse in the horse box lines at shows.
  I would imagine there is a clause in the schools contract, about disrepute, I think safe guarding would be difficult to use.
I think anyone who has been out for day, and it doesn't have to be hunting with children and ponies, up at five, and not being home till late, doing horses then and then coping with tired children, and had pony that decides not to be co-operative, we had one that charged off across a hotel car park, will feel for her.
The usual thing when this sort of storm brews is to leave, not wait to be sacked, so she was a bit naive.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			The point I was trying to make, obviously badly, was that you quoted me about safeguarding, when that would not be my concern if she was my child’s teacher.

And that people need to be mindful that their activities and behaviours outside of work can have consequences for their employment.

I don’t feel she deserves her life to be in ruins and her safety and that of her family to be threatened. She made a mistake and has paid a high price for it.
		
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The trouble is we don't know the full story and probably never will.  I think that only outcomes of serious allegations like physical and sexual abuse are published and sometimes they mention the name of the person, other times they don't.

The POT team has thresholds for implementation of a multi agency investigative meeting when an allegation has been made against a teacher of volunteer and should be applied when there is an allegation or concern that any person that works with children has:

behaved towards a child or children in a way that indicates they may pose a risk of harm to children
behaved or may have behaved in a way that indicates they may not be suitable to work with children
behaved in a way that has harmed a child, or may have harmed a child
possibly committed a criminal offence against or related to a child
No. 2 seems the most obvious choice.


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## scats (21 December 2021)

Although I think that what she did was vile, I do not believe she should have lost her job over it.  I wonder if the school felt backed into a corner due to the social media storm that followed, and perhaps parents who were unhappy having her teach their children.
I was a teacher.  Have I ever lost my temper and given a horse a smack?  Yes, I’m not perfect.  Have I ever lost control with a child?  No.  The two don’t always go hand in hand.

I wonder if she will appeal?


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## Tiddlypom (21 December 2021)

Why were the sabs filming there that day?

Now, while I know neither that hunt nor have any idea of what the local sabs get up to, I can hazard a guess.

They would not have been expecting to get the footage that they did, which was pure anti hunt gold. It would be to hope to add to the footage they have of hunts and their followers blocking roads to through traffic, which is pretty common.


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## shortstuff99 (21 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Why were the sabs filming there that day?

Now, while I know neither that hunt nor have any idea of what the local sabs get up to, I can hazard a guess.

They would not have been expecting to get the footage that they did, which was pure anti hunt gold. It would be to hope to add to the footage they have of hunts and their followers blocking roads to through traffic, which is pretty common.
		
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It was the Cottesmore hunt and they are quite notorious for illegal hunting.


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## Tiddlypom (21 December 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			It was the Cottesmore hunt and they are quite notorious for illegal hunting.
		
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Well, yes, so I've heard too . But it's more that's likely why the sabs were filming the horses being loaded back up when those particular followers had finished for the day. They were IMHO probably looking for footage of the hunt followers causing a nuisance.


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## chocolategirl (21 December 2021)

eahotson said:



			We have

We have all done both from time to time and then felt guilty afterwards and apologized.Who hasn't lost their temper with a child when they have been very worried,tired,ill etc. Hopefully the worst that has happened is that they have shouted a lot.
		
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I’ve never lost my temper with someone else’s child in my care, and that’s the issue here isn’t it? She’s a teacher, and with the way things are nowadays, her governing body no doubt had to set an example as if there’s any doubt she could ‘lose it’ with a child in her care, then I guess, couldn’t take that chance?


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## honetpot (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			The trouble is we don't know the full story and probably never will.  I think that only outcomes of serious allegations like physical and sexual abuse are published and sometimes they mention the name of the person, other times they don't.

The POT team has thresholds for implementation of a multi agency investigative meeting when an allegation has been made against a teacher of volunteer and should be applied when there is an allegation or concern that any person that works with children has:

behaved towards a child or children in a way that indicates they may pose a risk of harm to children
behaved or may have behaved in a way that indicates they may not be suitable to work with children
behaved in a way that has harmed a child, or may have harmed a child
possibly committed a criminal offence against or related to a child
No. 2 seems the most obvious choice.
		
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 Still difficult to prove, a good union rep should run rings around them. I have worked in a school and would be more worried about the common disregard of making sure children carry their inhalers, especially when they are going to play sport, or lack of post head injury care, which seems to happen every day in some schools.


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## Amymay (21 December 2021)

I think that whatever your views, her actions brought the school in to disrepute. I suspect they felt they had no choice other than to dismiss her.


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## Miss_Millie (21 December 2021)

I'm actually shocked and disturbed at the number of people on here who are saying they've done something similar. I am yet to own a horse and view any time I get to spend with them as a privilege. I would never dream of punching or kicking a horse. There is a huge difference between being firm and being abusive towards an animal.

A lot of people are saying that she did not deserve to be sacked, but I know of teachers who were let go of for much less. Teaching children is a big responsibility and I think the majority of parents would not want someone so openly abusive towards an animal to be in charge of raising their kids. I agree that the media coverage of the video made this very public and therefore escalated the situation because there were a lot of eyes on it, but I still think that what she did was very wrong and that she has no business owning animals if she will behave so violently over such a tiny thing.


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## shortstuff99 (21 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Well, yes, so I've heard too . But it's more that's likely why the sabs were filming the horses being loaded back up when those particular followers had finished for the day. They were IMHO probably looking for footage of the hunt followers causing a nuisance.
		
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From my memory of the video I think the terrier men were there, which might have been who they were following.


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## nutjob (21 December 2021)

I don't know anything about safeguarding, but a company I used to work for sacked someone who got drunk on a night out and did something that caused her to get arrested and subsequently convicted in court.  It was nothing whatsoever to do with her work and was before social media was such a thing. There were no vulnerable children or adults involved.  I am not sure if she pursued a tribunal but she didn't finish up with a pay off.  Definitely something to do with bringing the company into disrepute which was written in the contract and the company being worried about having to defend the employment of staff with criminal convictions.  
In this case if the school is a private school pressure from parents will also be a factor, if too many parents pull their children out and the school gets a bad reputation they are in a difficult position to keep employing her.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

FestiveG said:



			The thread and the posts are not about you, although you do seem determined to make it so! Other people, perhaps worth more experience of such events are also entitled to give their perspective, on the known facts.
		
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I was just trying to give my opinion based on the benefit of my experience. If you don't want to listen to it then don't read it.
There are people on the forum who have replied more than me but I don't hear you criticise them.


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## chocolategirl (21 December 2021)

onemoretime said:



			Yes Pearlsacarolsinger I also hopes this lady takes it to a Tribunal and I hope she wins.  The whole situation has been blown out of all proportion.
		
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So what you’re basically saying is you’d be completely comfortable with someone like this, who clearly has ‘some’ anger issues, being your child’s teacher? You think she’s set a good example to youngsters? Ok, that’s your choice, but I definitely wouldn’t want her teaching my children, sorry, I just wouldn’t. 🤷‍♀️ I’m not saying what she did in some respects warranted her dismissal, the problem is, she’s a teacher, and that’s the point here surely?


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## YorksG (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			I was just trying to give my opinion based on the benefit of my experience. If you don't want to listen to it then don't read it.
There are people on the forum who have replied more than me but I don't hear you criticise them.
		
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Because they didn't respond to other posters, in the manner which you did. They have addressed the issue, not decided that answers are personalised attacks.


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## PapaverFollis (21 December 2021)

God forbid we have flawed human beings teaching our children.


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## eahotson (21 December 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			God forbid we have flawed human beings teaching our children.
		
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Absolutely.


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			God forbid we have flawed human beings teaching our children.
		
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Quite!!


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## Tiddlypom (21 December 2021)

There are flaws, which we all have in various degrees, and then there's having an uncontrolled outburst of temper, and being seen very publicly to have it.

And then parents being expected to knowingly allow such a person to teach their primary school age children?


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## LEC (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			I'm afraid you are missing the point.  Read reply 7.  Bad riding, fat horses etc do not have the potential and it the word is 'potential' to cause harm to children or young people.  The risk was assessed.  The decision made.  End of.
		
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Actually not true - there is a comment the other day about a pony kicking out at a young jockey. This is a causation of other stuff that has gone on. Depends how you define risk - from humans or from horses!

I worked with rehabilitating sex offenders. i have also worked with children in precarious situations. There is assessing risk and then looking at history. The school couldn’t be bothered to deal with the publicity and public stoning.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

Miss_Millie said:



			I'm actually shocked and disturbed at the number of people on here who are saying they've done something similar.
		
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I think what people are saying is that they have lost their temper at some stage with their horse.  But I don't think anyone on here condones kicking or punching a horse as acceptable behaviour.  

As I said way back on the first page I smack my horse and don't see an issue with this if they are showing undesirable behaviour, kicking or biting for an example.  But there's a world of difference between tapping a horse on the nose or shoulder and beating seven shades out of it.


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			Genuine question, I am not being facetious. The fact is the woman has been filmed hitting and kicking a horse, regardless of the reasons why it happened. If you are saying that the whole situation has been blown out of all proportion, do you think that a teacher hitting and kicking a horse is an acceptable example of behaviour to  set to children? Yes or no.
		
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Anyone who doesn't think this has been blown out of all proportion better not let children watch Horse of the Year show, the Olympics or any racing.  
.


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## Tiddlypom (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Anyone who doesn't think this has been blown out of all proportion better not let children watch Horse of the Year show, the Olympics or any racing. 
.
		
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Not comparable. Of course bad things happen in those events, but they are not usually committed by a teacher who will subsequently have sole charge of primary school age children.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

LEC said:



			ummm hang on I worked with rehabilitating sex offenders.

i have also worked with children in precarious situations.

I find your comments ridiculous. There is assessing risk and then looking at history. The school couldn’t be bothered to deal with the publicity and public stoning.
		
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I found your comment ridiculous too.  You said: _what she did was crap, but everyday I see crap that goes on and on. Fat horses being fed towards illness, bad riding, incorrect punishment for the riders fault, punishment for not having put in correct training but that’s all fine. Know better, to do better._

To quote Tiddlypoms reply as she is more eloquent than me _*"Not comparable. Of course bad things happen in those events, but they are not usually committed by a teacher who will subsequently have sole charge of primary school age children."*_


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

Miss_Millie said:



			I'm actually shocked and disturbed at the number of people on here who are saying they've done something similar. I am yet to own a horse and view any time I get to spend with them as a privilege. I would never dream of punching or kicking a horse. There is a huge difference between being firm and being abusive towards an animal.

A lot of people are saying that she did not deserve to be sacked, but I know of teachers who were let go of for much less. Teaching children is a big responsibility and I think the majority of parents would not want someone so openly abusive towards an animal to be in charge of raising their kids. I agree that the media coverage of the video made this very public and therefore escalated the situation because there were a lot of eyes on it, but I still think that what she did was very wrong and that she has no business owning animals if she will behave so violently over such a tiny thing.
		
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You are right that spending time with horses is a privelege.  I think most of us know that.  I don't want to excuse someone from hitting or being unfair to a horse at all but when you have finished your day's work and you head off into the vile weather to get the horse in for the night/for the vet/farrier/ to go to a training event and the cheeky so and so spends 15 minutes charging round  in the mud, potentially a danger to themselves whilst pretending they have never seen a headcollar before or some other thing, you may find your temper frays and you hurl the headcollar into the wind and mud, swearing in frustration!  When you take your horse to an event that you have worked hard to prepare for and horse decides that it doesn't particularly fancy doing that thing that day, you will wear it and smile; horses have off days after all.  When the same horse then decides that even though it has always been a champion loader, today is a day when it doesn't want to load, or it wants to hook off in the direction of the children's collecting ring because a helium balloon just went over it's head, you will be aware that sometimes horses don't want to load because their training hasn't been complete or perhaps they are over-tired or even have something else physical that bothers them after work, but it probably won't mean that inside you are not hugely disappointed, frustrated and even, potentially irrationally cross. 

Sometimes your horse may even slightly frighten you or put you in a dangerous situation - threatening to reverse into a ditch because of something you can't see or understand, or spinning round because there is a 'thing' - or maybe just not respecting being led and threatening to 'lose' you as you lead down the lane - perhaps he or she thinks they can get to the field or their dinner a bit quicker!!  Fear is usually at the basis of anger and loss of temper.   I defy anyone to ALWAYS control their fear, their frustration, confusion, their tiredness and other worries.  We learn by our mistakes - hitting a horse just doesn't really work unless it is specific, very well timed and necessary for safety but I bet most horse people have done it.  Sometimes it is the right thing to keep things safe; for example leading a horse that is careering around on the end of the lead rope - that might be due to poor training, lack of exercise/inappropriate feeding/poor handling etc etc.  Those things need to be addressed.  But in the moment when that horse is putting itself and the handler in danger, a reprimand with a stick or the flat of the hand to regain attention and safety is the right thing to do.  

We always need a horse's respect and that doesn't ever come from abuse.  But I think it is naive in the extreme to think that it is possible to never use a physical cue or reprimand that we may not want to use.  I don't think in this instance  the horse hitting was at all warranted; the woman lost her temper clearly.  That isn't the way to handle a horse. Sadly it is sometimes the way some people handle life. I don't know what this woman was up against emotionally or mentally.  There is no reason for her to hit the pony but there will be a reason why she lost the plot.  Pony is fine I reckon - the woman is now in a bad place, worse than the moment before she hit the pony.  I think a bit of proportion and compassion is a good thing too.


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## Rowreach (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Anyone who doesn't think this has been blown out of all proportion better not let children watch Horse of the Year show, the Olympics or any racing. 
.
		
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They'll be too busy polishing the family halos to watch any telly.


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## smolmaus (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Anyone who doesn't think this has been blown out of all proportion better not let children watch Horse of the Year show, the Olympics or any racing. 
.
		
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The last time we saw something like this WAS at the Olympics and there was massive outrage and consequences for the person who punched the horse and eventually for the sport as a whole. If it goes on behind closed doors then that is equally wrong and deserves equal consequences (in my opinion) but we don't typically see horses being punched and kicked in a temper on TV, not as a too-forceful aid or a correction, but as a punishment. 

The people doing that in other sports are just sneakier than this woman I guess and know when they are being filmed, but the general public can't get virally outraged over videos that don't exist.


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## Snowpup (21 December 2021)

Miss_Millie said:



			I'm actually shocked and disturbed at the number of people on here who are saying they've done something similar. I am yet to own a horse and view any time I get to spend with them as a privilege. I would never dream of punching or kicking a horse. There is a huge difference between being firm and being abusive towards an animal.

A lot of people are saying that she did not deserve to be sacked, but I know of teachers who were let go of for much less. Teaching children is a big responsibility and I think the majority of parents would not want someone so openly abusive towards an animal to be in charge of raising their kids. I agree that the media coverage of the video made this very public and therefore escalated the situation because there were a lot of eyes on it, but I still think that what she did was very wrong and that she has no business owning animals if she will behave so violently over such a tiny thing.
		
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Same, I have never kicked or hit a horse in the head. It’s not relevant if this happens in other places either.
I would have said something and I have said something before. Some of the worst abuse I have seen is frustrated parents of NSEA competitors.

I am proud to have been called a tree hugger for stopping a father repeatedly hitting a pony around the head while tied up.
We haven’t all done it and I think it’s particularly bad that it was done in front of children and she runs pony clubs.


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Not comparable. Of course bad things happen in those events, but they are not usually committed by a teacher who will subsequently have sole charge of primary school age children.
		
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I think you might be wrong as many people competing or involved in public sport will teach and/or may well have sole charge of school age children.  The same is true of musicians and all sorts of other competitors and performers.


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Not comparable. Of course bad things happen in those events, but they are not usually committed by a teacher who will subsequently have sole charge of primary school age children.
		
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I think they are comparable.

Teachers don't have sole charge though,  do they?  There are other teachers and other adults around and probably at least 29 other children who would be very quick to tell someone in authority "teacher hit Jimmy".

Like it or not,  it is still normal in the horse world to slap a horse.  It has not been acceptable for half a century to slap someone else's child and there is no reason to assume that someone who slaps a horse is any danger to a child.  
.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

palo1 said:



			I quite agree!! I totally understand the difference too between my vegan French teacher and this incident - what I was trying to convey was that even when personal actions/views have a direct impact on education, there is a process which has to be gone through.  Perhaps this teacher was halfway down that road already?  If not, it seems extraordinary to me that she was just dismissed.  It is bad news too as it sets a precedent for any pressure group to see as tactically worthwhile.  I am glad that in the UK we don't have the same Pro Life/Pro Choice groups that the US has, for example...
		
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Therewas a case not so long ago where a teacher was targetted by apressure group because of an incident in school.  The teacher is no longer working at the school but very definitely was not sacked.  The general public and parents often have no clue about what has happened behind the scenes.  But this hunting incident involved  a private school, so who knows.....?


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## sbloom (21 December 2021)

smolmaus said:



			The last time we saw something like this WAS at the Olympics and there was massive outrage and consequences for the person who punched the horse and eventually for the sport as a whole.
		
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WITHIN her job role, where she clearly knows she has the world watching her and how she manages an equestrian team.  Losing that job, that role, has to be part of the punishment.  Very different where clearly an awful lot of people feel that this teacher could have made reparations in some other way and that losing her job was OTT.  No-one, no-one, has said what she did was okay.


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## LEC (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			To quote Tiddlypoms reply as she is more eloquent than me _*"Not comparable. Of course bad things happen in those events, but they are not usually committed by a teacher who will subsequently have sole charge of primary school age children."*_

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No, instead they are often committed by people of equal standing in society who just don’t get videoed.  

As I edited my post, actually crap decisions do mount up into safeguarding issues for kids just like that pony threatening to kick the child. That was the outcome of several crap decisions made by parent/child.


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## milliepops (21 December 2021)

palo1 said:



			We always need a horse's respect and that doesn't ever come from abuse.  But I think it is naive in the extreme to think that it is possible to never use a physical cue or reprimand that we may not want to use.  I don't think in this instance  the horse hitting was at all warranted; the woman lost her temper clearly.  That isn't the way to handle a horse. Sadly it is sometimes the way some people handle life. I don't know what this woman was up against emotionally or mentally.  There is no reason for her to hit the pony but there will be a reason why she lost the plot.  Pony is fine I reckon - the woman is now in a bad place, worse than the moment before she hit the pony.  I think a bit of proportion and compassion is a good thing too.
		
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agreed.
Last week i was lucky to not get seriously hurt in a horsebox by a horse that got itself in a pickle. i kicked it. i whacked it. i was trying to stop a bad situation from turning into one where one of us died, and my puny body is not strong enough to simply overpower a big horse with no threats of any kind. It is not nice to think back on but in the heat of the moment only brute force was going to stop that from going seriously wrong. there are often mitigating factors so to say you'd never lay a hand on a horse is nuts.  if i hadn't been prepared to do that i'd have just signed its death warrant.


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

smolmaus said:



			The last time we saw something like this WAS at the Olympics and there was massive outrage and consequences for the person who punched the horse and eventually for the sport as a whole.
		
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There were plenty of other horses hit with a whip during the last Olympics and at every other major equestrian event.

Like it or not,  it is still routine in horse sport to hit horses with whips and in horse management to slap horses with a hand.

Losing her job and career is a disproportionate punishment for what she did,  imo.
.


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## sbloom (21 December 2021)

milliepops said:



			agreed.
Last week i was lucky to not get seriously hurt in a horsebox by a horse that got itself in a pickle. i kicked it. i whacked it. i was trying to stop a bad situation from turning into one where one of us died, and my puny body is not strong enough to simply overpower a big horse with no threats of any kind. It is not nice to think back on but in the heat of the moment only brute force was going to stop that from going seriously wrong. there are often mitigating factors so to say you'd never lay a hand on a horse is nuts.  if i hadn't been prepared to do that i'd have just signed its death warrant.
		
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I'd hate to think what sort of trial by media you'd get if it was filmed.  We all know of PETA campaigns that are way over the top, with no understanding of how to deal with a large animal, as they believe we shouldn't be handling these large animals at all and would have us banned.  They have energised the debate to the level we are now facing.


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## milliepops (21 December 2021)

sbloom said:



*I'd hate to think what sort of trial by media you'd get if it was filmed. * We all know of PETA campaigns that are way over the top, with no understanding of how to deal with a large animal, as they believe we shouldn't be handling these large animals at all and would have us banned.  They have energised the debate to the level we are now facing.
		
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I quite agree. i was on the floor with a horse trying to get through the partitions in a moving truck, and i could only imagine it getting into the living and jumping through the cab. or breaking its neck in the back. or mine. or both. My alternative to battering the horse back into his space was to shut the door and let him kill himself  
when you have orgs like PETA then it's impossible to have a rational debate about things.


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## LEC (21 December 2021)

milliepops said:



			agreed.
Last week i was lucky to not get seriously hurt in a horsebox by a horse that got itself in a pickle. i kicked it. i whacked it. i was trying to stop a bad situation from turning into one where one of us died, and my puny body is not strong enough to simply overpower a big horse with no threats of any kind. It is not nice to think back on but in the heat of the moment only brute force was going to stop that from going seriously wrong. there are often mitigating factors so to say you'd never lay a hand on a horse is nuts.  if i hadn't been prepared to do that i'd have just signed its death warrant.
		
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I have had horses in ditches and you do a lot to try and get them to try and get out before they get too exhausted and slip back in. Again if it was filmed it would look terrible.


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## SEL (21 December 2021)

Amymay in a manger said:



			I think that whatever your views, her actions brought the school in to disrepute. I suspect they felt they had no choice other than to dismiss her.
		
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I think this is exactly what happened. The last thing a private school wants is to be named on the front page of the Daily Fail.


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## Miss_Millie (21 December 2021)

palo1 said:



			You are right that spending time with horses is a privelege.  I think most of us know that.  I don't want to excuse someone from hitting or being unfair to a horse at all but when you have finished your day's work and you head off into the vile weather to get the horse in for the night/for the vet/farrier/ to go to a training event and the cheeky so and so spends 15 minutes charging round  in the mud, potentially a danger to themselves whilst pretending they have never seen a headcollar before or some other thing, you may find your temper frays and you hurl the headcollar into the wind and mud, swearing in frustration!  When you take your horse to an event that you have worked hard to prepare for and horse decides that it doesn't particularly fancy doing that thing that day, you will wear it and smile; horses have off days after all.  When the same horse then decides that even though it has always been a champion loader, today is a day when it doesn't want to load, or it wants to hook off in the direction of the children's collecting ring because a helium balloon just went over it's head, you will be aware that sometimes horses don't want to load because their training hasn't been complete or perhaps they are over-tired or even have something else physical that bothers them after work, but it probably won't mean that inside you are not hugely disappointed, frustrated and even, potentially irrationally cross.

Sometimes your horse may even slightly frighten you or put you in a dangerous situation - threatening to reverse into a ditch because of something you can't see or understand, or spinning round because there is a 'thing' - or maybe just not respecting being led and threatening to 'lose' you as you lead down the lane - perhaps he or she thinks they can get to the field or their dinner a bit quicker!!  Fear is usually at the basis of anger and loss of temper.   I defy anyone to ALWAYS control their fear, their frustration, confusion, their tiredness and other worries.  We learn by our mistakes - hitting a horse just doesn't really work unless it is specific, very well timed and necessary for safety but I bet most horse people have done it.  Sometimes it is the right thing to keep things safe; for example leading a horse that is careering around on the end of the lead rope - that might be due to poor training, lack of exercise/inappropriate feeding/poor handling etc etc.  Those things need to be addressed.  But in the moment when that horse is putting itself and the handler in danger, a reprimand with a stick or the flat of the hand to regain attention and safety is the right thing to do. 

We always need a horse's respect and that doesn't ever come from abuse.  But I think it is naive in the extreme to think that it is possible to never use a physical cue or reprimand that we may not want to use.  I don't think in this instance  the horse hitting was at all warranted; the woman lost her temper clearly.  That isn't the way to handle a horse. Sadly it is sometimes the way some people handle life. I don't know what this woman was up against emotionally or mentally.  There is no reason for her to hit the pony but there will be a reason why she lost the plot.  Pony is fine I reckon - the woman is now in a bad place, worse than the moment before she hit the pony.  I think a bit of proportion and compassion is a good thing too.
		
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The way that I see it is that owning/being responsible for any animal is a choice. The horse did not choose to belong to her and she did not have to buy it. If you're going to own an animal then it is your responsibility to meet that animals needs and treat the animal with respect. If you can't do that then don't have the animal, no-one is forcing her to own it.

In this particular incident, all the horse did was wander off. The same thing actually happened to me recently when I was going from bridle to head collar, horse decided to walk off mid-switch. I firmly brought her back, used a stern voice and tied her back up, she got the message, absolutely no shouting, hitting or punching involved. I don't think that saying she might have been in a bad place mentally really holds up, because you could excuse any form of abuse with 'you don't know what she is up against emotionally or mentally'.


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## sbloom (21 December 2021)

Nobody has said that what she did was okay, it most definitely was not, that's not the debate.


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## MagicMelon (21 December 2021)

Nasty woman. I wouldnt want her in charge of my horses let alone anywhere near my kids. Glad she was fired. I wouldnt expect anyone non-caring and nasty like this to be in a school environment, cant believe people defend her.


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## onemoretime (21 December 2021)

v said:



			God forbid we have flawed human beings teaching our children.
		
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Exactly, heavens when I was at boarding school many years ago now my friend was dragged out of the dormitory for talking after lights out and made to sleep on a table all night in a separate room.  Now if that isn't child abuse I dont know what is, though nothing was done about it and there was plenty of other forms of child abuse that went on but we have managed to live to tell the tale.


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## Miss_Millie (21 December 2021)

milliepops said:



			agreed.
Last week i was lucky to not get seriously hurt in a horsebox by a horse that got itself in a pickle. i kicked it. i whacked it. i was trying to stop a bad situation from turning into one where one of us died, and my puny body is not strong enough to simply overpower a big horse with no threats of any kind. It is not nice to think back on but in the heat of the moment only brute force was going to stop that from going seriously wrong. there are often mitigating factors so to say you'd never lay a hand on a horse is nuts.  if i hadn't been prepared to do that i'd have just signed its death warrant.
		
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The difference here is that the horse did nothing wrong, it just wandered off. It wasn't behaving in a way that was threatening or putting any person or horse in danger.


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## smolmaus (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			There were plenty of other horses hit with a whip during the last Olympics and at every other major equestrian event.

Like it or not,  it is still routine in horse sport to hit horses with whips and in horse management to slap horses with a hand.

Losing her job and career is a disproportionate punishment for what she did,  imo.
.
		
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That's fair enough to have as your opinion but comparing what was caught on video with over use of a crop or a single slap is disingenuous. 


milliepops said:



			agreed.
Last week i was lucky to not get seriously hurt in a horsebox by a horse that got itself in a pickle. i kicked it. i whacked it. i was trying to stop a bad situation from turning into one where one of us died, and my puny body is not strong enough to simply overpower a big horse with no threats of any kind. It is not nice to think back on but in the heat of the moment only brute force was going to stop that from going seriously wrong. there are often mitigating factors so to say you'd never lay a hand on a horse is nuts.  if i hadn't been prepared to do that i'd have just signed its death warrant.
		
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I've been in a similar situation as well with a spooked Clydesdale about to crush me against a wall and she got the heftiest digs in the ribs that I could manage. She just about noticed and I never felt bad about it for a second. But if I had then gone round when she had settled and punched her in the face or kicked her to punish her? As happened in the video? That is very obviously not the same.


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

milliepops said:



			I quite agree. i was on the floor with a horse trying to get through the partitions in a moving truck, and i could only imagine it getting into the living and jumping through the cab. or breaking its neck in the back. or mine. or both. My alternative to battering the horse back into his space was to shut the door and let him kill himself  
when you have orgs like PETA then it's impossible to have a rational debate about things.
		
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Well done for doing what was needed in that moment.  Thank goodness you were able to apply that understanding, however discomforting, as many people would have panicked and not have been able to prevent a tragedy - potentially both human and equine.  It doesn't bear thinking about and  I don't expect that was pleasant at all for either of you but both live to fight another day.  Good call.


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## milliepops (21 December 2021)

Miss_Millie said:



			The difference here is that the horse did nothing wrong, it just wandered off. It wasn't behaving in a way that was threatening or putting any person or horse in danger.
		
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i agree, but my post was in response to people saying they would never lay a hand on a horse.  sometimes you are left with little option. palo's post outlined others scenarios where that kind of black and white thinking doesn't help anyone.


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## smolmaus (21 December 2021)

Miss_Millie said:



			The difference here is that the horse did nothing wrong, it just wandered off. It wasn't behaving in a way that was threatening or putting any person or horse in danger.
		
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Didn't even really wander off, it moved away from the child and walked right over to her. It was an absolutely bonkers way for her to react.


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## MagicMelon (21 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			I am, I’m training a youngster, so should I lose my job because he’s stood in my foot and I’ve smacked him to get off, I’ve been in a position of trust most of my life.  Get a grip and stop being sanctimonious..
		
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Why on earth is it acceptable for you to smack a horse because you werent careful where you put your foot?!  If my horse stands on mine, Ill swear to myself about how stupid I was and push the horse back, I dont punish it because of my error. Goodness me, so much wrong with the horse world


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

Miss_Millie said:



			The difference here is that the horse did nothing wrong, it just wandered off. It wasn't behaving in a way that was threatening or putting any person or horse in danger.
		
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No-one is excusing what was done.  Also we are not certain that the horse getting loose (in whatever circumstance) wasn't going to put someone or the horse in danger.  You can't assume that at all.  The response of the woman was wrong, no doubt.  She should just have picked the horse back up and no fuss but she lost it for reasons that are not clear.  I don't think she should necessarily have lost her job because of that single incident.


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

Miss_Millie said:



			The way that I see it is that owning/being responsible for any animal is a choice. The horse did not choose to belong to her and she did not have to buy it. If you're going to own an animal then it is your responsibility to meet that animals needs and treat the animal with respect. If you can't do that then don't have the animal, no-one is forcing her to own it
		
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I can't help wondering if you've ever watched horses interacting with each other?  "Respect" among horses is obtained by threat of violence and backed up with actual violence if the threat is not enough.  Horse do actually understand threat as a training tool,  and all people have done is use that understanding.  
.


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			I can't help wondering if you've ever watched horses interacting with each other?  "Respect" among horses is obtained by threat of violence and backed up with actual violence if the threat is not enough.  Horse do actually understand threat as a training tool,  and all people have done is use that understanding. 
.
		
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Oh blimey @ycbm, put your tin hat on!!


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

MagicMelon said:



			Why on earth is it acceptable for you to smack a horse because you werent careful where you put your foot?!  If my horse stands on mine, Ill swear to myself about how stupid I was and push the horse back, I dont punish it because of my error. Goodness me, so much wrong with the horse world 

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It's acceptable because if you're quick enough about it, you can stop the horse putting its entire weight onto your foot and breaking your toes or metatarsals.

It’s also acceptable,  in my view,   if the horse is being bolshy and invaded your space to tread on your foot.  See above about how another horse would correct that error of judgement.
.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

palo1 said:



			.  I don't think she should necessarily have lost her job because of that single incident.
		
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But no one said it was because of that single incident. There may have been a whole host of other reasons that we are not party to and she may have already been warned about her behaviour but the leaked footage was the cherry on the cake and led to her dismissal.

You can't just sack someone for no reason.  It would have to be a proper disciplinary where both sides get to put their sides of the story.  Its not like the head saw the video and went in the next day and fired her.  There would have been a lot of stuff that led to that happening that we don't know about. 

Its not as black and white as people seem to think.


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

smolmaus said:



			That's fair enough to have as your opinion but comparing what was caught on video with over use of a crop or a single slap is disingenuous.
		
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I don't agree.


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## milliepops (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			It's acceptable because if you're quick enough about it, you can stop the horse putting it's entire weight onto your foot and breaking your toes or metatarsals.

It’s also acceptable,  in my view,   if the horse is being bolshy and invaded your space to tread on your foot.  See above about how another horse would correct that error of judgement.
.
		
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it's also worth telling the horse about its error because they do learn how to not trample people who are close to them. I am not particularly deliberate about my feet with any except the youngest horses as the older ones have learned along the way that it's better to be as aware of my body as i am of theirs.


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

sbloom said:



			Nobody has said that what she did was okay, it most definitely was not, that's not the debate.
		
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This!


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

I have to admit that years ago I had a horse who loved to squash you against things like the fence or the stable wall.  I assume it was malicious, but whatever it was it was highly dangerous.  A much loved and respected old school type vet came out to do my horses vaccination and he asked me if I had any issues with my horse so I told him about him squishing me against things at every opportunity.

He told me next time he did it to stick the end of my bic biro into my young horses ribs. I did so and he jumped about four foot into the air because it hurt him.  But he never did it again. 

If I'd ignored the vet and spent the next 11 months of the horses life pushing him and slapping him and hitting him to get him away from me it would have been much worse (for both of us and I could have been seriously injured).  Cruel to be kind comes to mind.  But not the same as kicking and punching a horse.


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			But no one said it was because of that single incident. There may have been a whole host of other reasons that we are not party to and she may have already been warned about her behaviour but the leaked footage was the cherry on the cake and led to her dismissal.
		
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There you go speculating again. 

All anyone is saying on this thread is that the behaviour which was recorded does not warrant summary dismissal from her job.  

The fact that you keep justifying it by saying there must be more to it says to me that you believe that it would be unfair too.


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## teapot (21 December 2021)

If everyone immediately lost their job for how they behaved once at a weekend and it was filmed, we wouldn't have any public services. For all we know there's a Mrs Smith who teaches Year 5 somewhere in the UK who's also a smackhead... 

Trial by social media and sabs, _and_ a school who has had to be seen to act on it. Awful situation really.


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## Rowreach (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			But no one said it was because of that single incident. There may have been a whole host of other reasons that we are not party to and she may have already been warned about her behaviour but the leaked footage was the cherry on the cake and led to her dismissal.

You can't just sack someone for no reason.  It would have to be a proper disciplinary where both sides get to put their sides of the story.  Its not like the head saw the video and went in the next day and fired her.  There would have been a lot of stuff that led to that happening that we don't know about.

Its not as black and white as people seem to think.
		
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Is this you not speculating again?


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			there must be more to it says to me
		
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there may be more to it

Any everyone is speculating that that one single incident has led to her losing her job.  That's speculation.  But I suppose that's ok.

Obviously the rules don't apply to me and I am not allowed to speculate but everyone else is.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Is this you not speculating again?
		
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Here we go again ...........


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## Flame_ (21 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Why were the sabs filming there that day?

Now, while I know neither that hunt nor have any idea of what the local sabs get up to, I can hazard a guess.

They would not have been expecting to get the footage that they did, which was pure anti hunt gold. It would be to hope to add to the footage they have of hunts and their followers blocking roads to through traffic, which is pretty common.
		
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Same as any other trouble causing assholes - disrupt, irritate, violate, obstruct, judge and upset people trying to get on with a legitimate activity, then when those people do boil over (usually appearing totally inappropriately) make sure there's a camera pointing at them to show what big, bad, crazies they are. 

This thing stinks and I'm sorry to hear that this lady's been sacked.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Here we go again ...........
		
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Just what I was thinking! 


It really isn't all about you.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Here we go again ...........
		
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Just so you know there are three people on this thread that have said the same as me in respect of 'speculating' that maybe there are other reasons for this persons dismissal but I don't see you taking issue with them.

Does that not just prove my point?


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			It really isn't all about you.
		
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I never said it was, it just makes be laugh how the little clique come out in force everytime someone makes a point against me.  Like backup.  So sad really.


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## Not_so_brave_anymore (21 December 2021)

sbloom said:



			If you take that to its furthest extent then it means she must at all times only ever act in a way that is a good example to her pupils.   Where would that stop?  Could she go out and get massively drunk and make a fool of herself? Could she use foul language in public?  I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of things we all might do at times which are far from a great example to set to a child but which would not impact in any way our ability to teach them.  Surely?
		
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I'm a teacher (at an independent school) and if the school became aware that I'd been shit faced out in town on a Saturday night, especially if local to the school, then I would expect a formal written warning. If a video had been circulated on social media, then I think I'd probably be out on my ear. Not because of safeguarding but because of bringing the school into disrepute. 

(in fact, I'm a bit scared to be on a public forum at all, even blandly and anonymously - my gut feeling is that it would probably be frowned upon!)


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			there may be more to it

Any everyone is speculating that that one single incident has led to her losing her job.  That's speculation.  But I suppose that's ok.

Obviously the rules don't apply to me and I am not allowed to speculate but everyone else is.
		
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Everyone but you is trying to discuss the known facts.  

Just for one moment,  assume the known facts (the video,  her summary dismissal)  are all there is.  Was it fair for her to lose her job? 
.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			There you go speculating again.

All anyone is saying on this thread is that the behaviour which was recorded does not warrant summary dismissal from her job.

The fact that you keep justifying it by saying there must be more to it says to me that you believe that it would be unfair too.
		
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If someone is on a warning for behaviour already then any additional issues will be weighed up and I am saying that that could be a reason.  I have done no more speculating than anyone else but you don't have issue with those people.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Everyone but you is trying to discuss the known facts.

Just for one moment,  assume the known facts (the video,  her summary dismissal)  are all there is.  Was it fair for her to lose her job?
.
		
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Yes she is in a position of trust.  As I explained painstakingly throughout this thread, many, many times.  Just because you don't agree with what I say doesn't make it any less valid I'm afraid.

In the same way if you are a doctor you can't carry out free tummy tucks on your friends, if you are a police man you can't take part in a violent demonstration, etc, etc.  Really rubbish examples given quickly as I'm going home in a minute.


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Now I know why, and some people on here also know why
		
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Would you care to explain this comment,  please?

I find that very upsetting.  You seem to be forgetting how often I have defended you from attack on this forum.  
.


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Yes she is in a position of trust.  As I explained painstakingly throughout this thread, many, many times.  Just because you don't agree with what I say doesn't make it any less valid I'm afraid.
		
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That is actually the first time on the thread that you have stated that she should be sacked for that single incident in isolation. 

Thank you for replying.  I'm happy to disagree with you.  
.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 December 2021)

MagicMelon said:



			Why on earth is it acceptable for you to smack a horse because you werent careful where you put your foot?!  If my horse stands on mine, Ill swear to myself about how stupid I was and push the horse back, I dont punish it because of my error. Goodness me, so much wrong with the horse world 

Click to expand...

😂😂😂😂😂 thanks for the laugh MM I needed it on this thread 😂😂😂


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## sbloom (21 December 2021)

Not_so_brave_anymore said:



			I'm a teacher (at an independent school) and if the school became aware that I'd been shit faced out in town on a Saturday night, especially if local to the school, then I would expect a formal written warning. If a video had been circulated on social media, then I think I'd probably be out on my ear. Not because of safeguarding but because of bringing the school into disrepute.

(in fact, I'm a bit scared to be on a public forum at all, even blandly and anonymously - my gut feeling is that it would probably be frowned upon!)
		
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I think there are degrees, and what if it was a house party and not "in public"?  And a written formal warning...we're discussing this on the basis of one incident, I would agree that a written warning would be appropriate as would probably the vast majority on this thread.

She lost her job!


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			That is actually the first time on the thread that you have stated that she should be sacked for that single incident in isolation.


.
		
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You are putting words into my mouth in only the way you can.

You did not ask me 'should she be sacked?' you asked me 'was it fair for her to lose her job?'.  Bit different.
How can I know if she should be sacked or not??  I do not know the circumstances in full which led to her dismissal  I do not know if there were any other reasons behind the decision that was made, i.e. if she had done similar things in the past.  This isn't speculation, this is fact that is taken into account during the process.  

Just because I find it a struggle to articulate myself sometimes, you take full advantage of the situation, you always have.  Talk about putting words into peoples mouths.


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			You did not ask me 'should she be sacked?' you asked me 'was it fair for her to lose her job?'. Bit different.
		
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Different?   Not on the planet I inhabit. 
.


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## Birker2020 (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Different?   Not on the planet I inhabit.
.
		
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I haven't time to think of an example but the two are very different imho.


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## Upthecreek (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Anyone who doesn't think this has been blown out of all proportion better not let children watch Horse of the Year show, the Olympics or any racing. 
.
		
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I personally don’t feel you can compare what she did with any of that.


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## Upthecreek (21 December 2021)

milliepops said:



			agreed.
Last week i was lucky to not get seriously hurt in a horsebox by a horse that got itself in a pickle. i kicked it. i whacked it. i was trying to stop a bad situation from turning into one where one of us died, and my puny body is not strong enough to simply overpower a big horse with no threats of any kind. It is not nice to think back on but in the heat of the moment only brute force was going to stop that from going seriously wrong. there are often mitigating factors so to say you'd never lay a hand on a horse is nuts.  if i hadn't been prepared to do that i'd have just signed its death warrant.
		
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What you did was appropriate in the situation you were in. What she did was not.


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## milliepops (21 December 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			What you did was appropriate in the situation you were in. What she did was not.
		
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i'm at peace with what i did, and i agree (as does everyone) that what she did was not OK. My post was in response to several on this thread saying it was *never* acceptable to hit a horse. i don't believe it makes sense to have black and white views like that.


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## Miss_Millie (21 December 2021)

palo1 said:



			No-one is excusing what was done.  Also we are not certain that the horse getting loose (in whatever circumstance) wasn't going to put someone or the horse in danger.  You can't assume that at all.  The response of the woman was wrong, no doubt.  She should just have picked the horse back up and no fuss but she lost it for reasons that are not clear.  I don't think she should necessarily have lost her job because of that single incident.
		
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I never said that she should have lost her job, what concerns me is that some people on here don't seem to think that what she did was abusive.

The RSPCA - "The footage was really upsetting"
The Pony Club - "We wholeheartedly condemn this behaviour".
Some members of the Horse and Hound Forum "this to me wasn’t animal abuse"


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## PapaverFollis (21 December 2021)

Noone has said it wasn't upsetting or worthy of condemnation.


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## Miss_Millie (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			I can't help wondering if you've ever watched horses interacting with each other?  "Respect" among horses is obtained by threat of violence and backed up with actual violence if the threat is not enough.  Horse do actually understand threat as a training tool,  and all people have done is use that understanding. 
.
		
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Of course I have, but the dynamic between a herd of horses and a human directing/controlling a horse is completely different. Force can and should be used where appropriate, but there is a big difference between force and abuse.

I find the video particularly disturbing because I used to care for a horse who came from a home where she was hit around the head, as a result she was extremely head shy and scared of people going anywhere near her face. This was extra bad in the sense that she needed ointment applied to her ears on a daily basis for scabs, which was near impossible without getting your hand bitten off. It took me months of gently working with her to get her to trust me enough, to let me do this.

I have seen just how psychologically damaged a horse can be from being hit in the face, and it isn't pretty.


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## Cortez (21 December 2021)

Miss_Millie said:



			I never said that she should have lost her job, what concerns me is that some people on here don't seem to think that what she did was abusive.

The RSPCA - "The footage was really upsetting"
The Pony Club - "We wholeheartedly condemn this behaviour".
Some members of the Horse and Hound Forum "this to me wasn’t animal abuse"
		
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Why should it concern you? If you think you can handle horses without recourse to the odd slap, go right ahead. Those of us over here in the real world will continue in the full realisation that occasionally you may have to resort to physical reprimand. The lady in the video was acting irrationally, nobody - not one person - has approved of what she was shown doing, but, along with the RSPCA (who know eff all about horse handling BTW) and the PC, many have stopped short of calling it horse abuse. I have seen real abuse: this wasn't that.


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## Miss_Millie (21 December 2021)

Cortez said:



*Why should it concern you?* If you think you can handle horses without recourse to the odd slap, go right ahead. *Those of us over here in the real world* will continue in the full realisation that occasionally you may have to resort to physical reprimand. The lady in the video was acting irrationally, nobody - not one person - has approved of what she was shown doing, but, along with the RSPCA (who know eff all about horse handling BTW) and the PC, many have stopped short of calling it horse abuse. I have seen real abuse: this wasn't that.
		
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Sorry, I'll try not to be concerned about how casual some people are about hitting horses around the face. Read my post above about the horse I worked with who was traumatised by being treated this way by a human and then maybe you will understand why I find this upsetting.

I didn't realise that showing compassion and empathy towards animals made me outside of 'the real world', if that's the case then I'm happy to stay over here.


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## milliepops (21 December 2021)

i don't know if there's a problem of comprehension or something else, i won't speak for anyone else but personally i was disappointed to see the way she treated the horse in the video, i thought it looked like rubbish horsemanship, i wouldn't let someone do that to my horses, but equally i feel that the consequences she has faced have been extremely severe

particularly by comparison with other convicted long term horse abusers who effectively just go about their life like normal

for me that is why it's not worth continually weeping over that one horse in the video, we should be concentrating on things that affect a bigger number of horses, or where bad treatment has worse consequences.  you know, where you can make a difference.

it doesn't mean you don't give a toss about her horse or that you condone the behaviour, its about a proportionate response.


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## Tiddlypom (21 December 2021)

Btw, I don't think that this is a private school, it is a primary school which is part of a multi academy trust comprising of 6 schools, so is that not a state school? Though academies came in after my time as a primary state school governor, so I am not up to date on the finer distinctions.

https://www.mowbrayeducation.org/

When the video was first aired, two possible names/identities were mooted for the woman in the video. The other one (who was not involved in this incident) did teach at a private school.


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## smolmaus (21 December 2021)

Miss_Millie said:



			Sorry, I'll try not to be concerned about how casual some people are about hitting horses around the face. Read my post above about the horse I worked with who was traumatised by being treated this way by a human and then maybe you will understand why I find this upsetting.

I didn't realise that showing compassion and empathy towards animals made me outside of 'the real world', if that's the case then I'm happy to stay over here.
		
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Cortez said:



			Why should it concern you? If you think you can handle horses without recourse to the odd slap, go right ahead. Those of us over here in the real world will continue in the full realisation that occasionally you may have to resort to physical reprimand. The lady in the video was acting irrationally, nobody - not one person - has approved of what she was shown doing, but, along with the RSPCA (who know eff all about horse handling BTW) and the PC, many have stopped short of calling it horse abuse. I have seen real abuse: this wasn't that.
		
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I think yous are talking past eachother here. Your actual disagreement is whether or not the punishment for the woman involved was proportional which is a perfectly fine thing to have a difference of opinion on! It isn't up to any of us like, it's up to her employers so forum opinions only matter to ourselves here. 

I don't think Cortez that "reprimanding" a horse by punching and kicking it when it has calmly walked up to you after having been left loose is within anyone's definition of using necessary physical force during training.


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## Shilasdair (21 December 2021)

I sometimes wonder what happened to the souls of those people who knitted next to the guillotine.

Now I see some of you have been reincarnated, and are actively posting.  

The irony is that those who shout the loudest about others' misdemeanours, are also those who tend to behave badly on HHO, as they can't control their own tempers.

The quality of mercy is not strained, folks.   Or perhaps 'There but for the grace of God go all of us'.


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## Cortez (21 December 2021)

smolmaus said:



			I don't think Cortez that "reprimanding" a horse by punching and kicking it when it has calmly walked up to you after having been left loose is within anyone's definition of using necessary physical force during training.
		
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Of course it's not, as I, and every other poster on this thread have repeatedly said. Getting all aerated about the lady being an "abuser" and deserving to get the sack is disproportionate, hysterical and fails to understand that losing your temper and whacking a horse for no reason is not on a par with some of the savage and barbaric things that are done to horses, and that mostly do not result in the perpetrators losing their jobs.


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## PapaverFollis (21 December 2021)

People.

Make.

Mistakes.


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## smolmaus (21 December 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			People.

Make.

Mistakes.
		
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Sometimes there are consequences. 

If we are going to resort to platitudes.


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## stangs (21 December 2021)

Well I avoided this thread because I knew it would upset me. And it has. But more than anything the _lovely_ implication that "if you don't hit horses sometimes, you're not 'in the real world'" is making me feel sick.


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## Miss_Millie (21 December 2021)

stangs said:



			Well I avoided this thread because I knew it would upset me. And it has. But more than anything the _lovely_ implication that "if you don't hit horses sometimes, you're not 'in the real world'" is making me feel sick.
		
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Same here.


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## Cortez (21 December 2021)

stangs said:



			Well I avoided this thread because I knew it would upset me. And it has. But more than anything the _lovely_ implication that "if you don't hit horses sometimes, you're not 'in the real world'" is making me feel sick.
		
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Poor you. I defy you to train a horse to do pretty much anything useful and be handled safely without using the occasional negative reinforcement. Look at mares and their foals, look at any herd dynamic.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Btw, I don't think that this is a private school, it is a primary school which is part of a multi academy trust comprising of 6 schools, so is that not a state school? Though academies came in after my time as a primary state school governor, so I am not up to date on the finer distinctions.

https://www.mowbrayeducation.org/

When the video was first aired, two possible names/identities were mooted for the woman in the video. The other one (who was not involved in this incident) did teach at a private school.
		
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Academies  are state-funded (maintained) although  directly from DfE rather than through the LA.


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## PapaverFollis (21 December 2021)

It's not a platitude.  People do make mistakes.  Consequences should be proportional if they are to be metered out by society.

People are deliberately mis-reading stuff so they can make themselves feel virtuous by comparison. Which is nice.


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

LEC said:



			I have had horses in ditches and you do a lot to try and get them to try and get out before they get too exhausted and slip back in. Again if it was filmed it would look terrible.
		
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Miss_Millie said:



			I never said that she should have lost her job, what concerns me is that some people on here don't seem to think that what she did was abusive.

The RSPCA - "The footage was really upsetting"
The Pony Club - "We wholeheartedly condemn this behaviour".
Some members of the Horse and Hound Forum "this to me wasn’t animal abuse"
		
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But everyone here has agreed that what she did was wrong and 'abusive'.  Various posters have articulated that the abuse perhaps wasn't 'serious' but it's unanimous I think that she did abuse the pony.  No one has said there is any excuse for it, though there may be reasons - the two are different.  There are different perceptions about how serious the filmed incident was in terms of abuse for sure but there is no one here that wouldn't agree the pony was poorly treated - ie abused.


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

Miss_Millie said:



			Of course I have, but the dynamic between a herd of horses and a human directing/controlling a horse is completely different. Force can and should be used where appropriate, but there is a big difference between force and abuse.

I find the video particularly disturbing because I used to care for a horse who came from a home where she was hit around the head, as a result she was extremely head shy and scared of people going anywhere near her face. This was extra bad in the sense that she needed ointment applied to her ears on a daily basis for scabs, which was near impossible without getting your hand bitten off. It took me months of gently working with her to get her to trust me enough, to let me do this.

I have seen just how psychologically damaged a horse can be from being hit in the face, and it isn't pretty.
		
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Well the pony in the film clip wasn't headshy so perhaps he/she isn't regularly abused which is a good thing.


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## stangs (21 December 2021)

Cortez said:



			Poor you. I defy you to train a horse to do pretty much anything useful and be handled safely without using the occasional negative reinforcement. Look at mares and their foals, look at any herd dynamic.
		
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a) If you hit an animal, that's positive punishment not negative reinforcement. You're adding an undesirable stimuli, not removing one.

b) I'm not a horse. Horses do not respond to people like they do to fellow horses. No horse I've ever worked with has looked at my hands and thought "ah yes that's a hoof so if I get hit by that, it's the same as being kicked by my herd mate" 

c) If giraffes, elephants, lions, bears, zebras, and more can all be trained without positive punishment or even negative reinforcement in most cases - why can't horses?


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

Just to put this into context with a real life example;

I know of a support assistant who worked in a school for children with SEND, actually beavioural and emotional problems.  The young man went on the staff Christmas night out and had rather more to drink than he could handle.  Some  of his colleagues then witnessed him verbally and physically assaulting a rough sleeper in the city centre.  The incident was reported to the Headteacher who took it to the Governors, as a Safeguarding issue. The young man lost his job, after due process had been followed.

This behaviour was relevant to his employment because 1) the pupils at the school needed to know that the behaviour was inappropriate
2)The rough sleeper was by definition a vulnerable person  3) had the incident been reported to the police, the employee could well have been charged with breaking the law and punished accordingly 4)  staff working with emotionally vulnerable children need to be trustworthy under all circumstances.

All very different from the incident that started this thread.


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## PapaverFollis (21 December 2021)

Honestly this makes me hopping mad, why can people not see what is at stake.  Its not about a stupid woman hitting her horse, it's more than that. "there are consequences etc etc"  We have time tested systems for doling out consequences when they are needed.  Chris ******* Packham tweeting to his mob is not what our justice system is built on.  If we are all happy for this woman to get these consequences then we all better make sure we never step out of line ever, against societal norms now or any possible future societal norms because the camera of the mobile phone Stasi is trained upon us.

When it becomes taboo to "be firm" with a horse then they'll be dragging this thread up as evidence of historical horse abuse and we'll be losing our jobs...  brave new world.

What happened to a little forgiveness?

Who decides the "crimes" and the "consequences" required?  At some point we'll all be on the wrong side of those decisions unless you are sprinting full pelt to the centre of that spiral as we speak...


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## PapaverFollis (21 December 2021)

Aaaaaand my heart rate monitor app just asked me if I would like to check my heart rate. 😂 might just leave it for today!


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## Cortez (21 December 2021)

stangs said:



			a) If you hit an animal, that's positive punishment not negative reinforcement. You're adding an undesirable stimuli, not removing one. What are you on about? 

b) I'm not a horse. Horses do not respond to people like they do to fellow horses. No horse I've ever worked with has looked at my hands and thought "ah yes that's a hoof so if I get hit by that, it's the same as being kicked by my herd mate" You, nor I, have any idea what a horse is thinking when he's looking at anything.

c) If giraffes, elephants, lions, bears, zebras, and more can all be trained without positive punishment or even negative reinforcement in most cases - why can't horses?
		
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 Ever worked with a circus trainer? If you think that they train without negative reinforcement, well, you're adorable, as my American friends would say.


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## Shilasdair (21 December 2021)

Miss Millie - you remind me of a lovely family who bought two easy horses from a riding school I taught freelance at - a mare and a pony.
How this family ADORED  these horses.   They were never abusive, they didn't even carry a whip, they didn't ever smack them (that would be abusive) or tell them off.   They bonded with them, fed them treats, and loved them.

I was asked to help at the point where the mare had been diagnosed with a brain tumour as she had started rearing on leaving the yard.   The family were so unlucky that the pony also had a brain tumour - and it napped and ran backwards.  Both horses needed to be PTS as there was no other remedy.

Except there was - both horses were given back to the riding school where one smack on the bum cured the mare, and two smacks on the bum cured the pony.  

Hurrah - no need for PTS.


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## Shilasdair (21 December 2021)

And as a further point, it could be argued that riding a horse is abusive - it's certainly not good for the horse.

Is this really the path you all want to go down?   Doesn't worry me - I don't ride my two.

Or is his _different_ because you enjoy riding?


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			Honestly this makes me hopping mad, why can people not see what is at stake.  Its not about a stupid woman hitting her horse, it's more than that. "there are consequences etc etc"  We have time tested systems for doling out consequences when they are needed.  Chris ******* Packham tweeting to his mob is not what our justice system is built on.  If we are all happy for this woman to get these consequences then we all better make sure we never step out of line ever, against societal norms now or any possible future societal norms because the camera of the mobile phone Stasi is trained upon us.

When it becomes taboo to "be firm" with a horse then they'll be dragging this thread up as evidence of historical horse abuse and we'll be losing our jobs...  brave new world.

What happened to a little forgiveness?

Who decides the "crimes" and the "consequences" required?  At some point we'll all be on the wrong side of those decisions unless you are sprinting full pelt to the centre of that spiral as we speak...
		
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Well said. In conversation with a great supporter of Chris Packham I was trying to unpick something around dogs/domesticated animals. It was an interesting conversation until that person just said that no-one should keep any animal 'subjected to our whims' and that they would be happy to film confrontation and release pets, farm animals, whatever. (Ironic really as CP is a great pet dog lover!)  Truly, that sense of righteousness and entitlement to enact your will on others through any means and at any consequence and use of emotive social media and 'personal liberty' (to think and do exactly what you please) is terrifying.   People seem to forget that we all exist within contexts that are the result of complex social and other interactions.  You can't just lob metaphorical grenades into people's lives because you don't agree with their choices/behaviour.  That is dangerous behaviour and a dangerous attitude to have.


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## Cortez (21 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			Miss Millie - you remind me of a lovely family who bought two easy horses from a riding school I taught freelance at - a mare and a pony.
How this family ADORED  these horses.   They were never abusive, they didn't even carry a whip, they didn't ever smack them (that would be abusive) or tell them off.   They bonded with them, fed them treats, and loved them.

I was asked to help at the point where the mare had been diagnosed with a brain tumour as she had started rearing on leaving the yard.   The family were so unlucky that the pony also had a brain tumour - and it napped and ran backwards.  Both horses needed to be PTS as there was no other remedy.

Except there was - both horses were given back to the riding school where one smack on the bum cured the mare, and two smacks on the bum cured the pony.  

Hurrah - no need for PTS.
		
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And let me guess: cured the brain tumours?


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## Miss_Millie (21 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			Miss Millie - you remind me of a lovely family who bought two easy horses from a riding school I taught freelance at - a mare and a pony.
How this family ADORED  these horses.   They were never abusive, they didn't even carry a whip, they didn't ever smack them (that would be abusive) or tell them off.   They bonded with them, fed them treats, and loved them.

I was asked to help at the point where the mare had been diagnosed with a brain tumour as she had started rearing on leaving the yard.   The family were so unlucky that the pony also had a brain tumour - and it napped and ran backwards.  Both horses needed to be PTS as there was no other remedy.

Except there was - both horses were given back to the riding school where one smack on the bum cured the mare, and two smacks on the bum cured the pony.  

Hurrah - no need for PTS.
		
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I am genuinely at a loss as what you are trying to convey with this anecdote?


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## YorksG (21 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			And as a further point, it could be argued that riding a horse is abusive - it's certainly not good for the horse.

Is this really the path you all want to go down?   Doesn't worry me - I don't ride my two.

Or is his _different_ because you enjoy riding?
		
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I think the main difference, is that a load of sabs haven't taken video and created a media sh1tstorm, picketed our places of work and had a trial by media.


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## Mrs. Jingle (21 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			Miss Millie - you remind me of a lovely family who bought two easy horses from a riding school I taught freelance at - a mare and a pony.
How this family ADORED  these horses.   They were never abusive, they didn't even carry a whip, they didn't ever smack them (that would be abusive) or tell them off.   They bonded with them, fed them treats, and loved them.

I was asked to help at the point where the mare had been diagnosed with a brain tumour as she had started rearing on leaving the yard.   The family were so unlucky that the pony also had a brain tumour - and it napped and ran backwards.  Both horses needed to be PTS as there was no other remedy.

Except there was - both horses were given back to the riding school where one smack on the bum cured the mare, and two smacks on the bum cured the pony.  

Hurrah - no need for PTS.
		
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Is it very wrong that I find this the best and funniest post on the whole thread! 😂😂😂


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

Miss_Millie said:



			I am genuinely at a loss as what you are trying to convey with this anecdote?
		
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I am honestly not surprised.


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## scats (21 December 2021)

I don’t think anyone is saying they agree with the actions of the lady. Not at all.  But humans make mistakes, they lash out, they stupid things when they get stressed/tired. 

I was viciously bitten by my old ISH. I was rugging him up and he turned and went for my back- ears flat. He went through a blouson, a gilet, a jumper and a T-shirt. He broke the skin, a decent amount of blood and I actually had a scar for 18 months.  Like lightening, I smacked his neck. I think it was part-shock. He was equally shocked. We both just looked at each other for a few moments. I felt dreadful about it but, as my friend said who was stood there, if that had been my face- he’d have taken part of it off.  He never attempted anything like that again.  
I was a teacher at the time, if someone had filmed that and posted it on social media, should I have lost my job?

I felt horrendous guilt for days.  I lost my temper.  But I don’t think that makes me a bad person. I certainly don’t think that my actions that day meant I was a danger to children.  I never once lost my temper with a child in my ten years teaching.


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## Regandal (21 December 2021)

What is the school supposed to do if all the parents say they don’t want her anywhere near their children? Put her on gardening leave? Give her a good reference to bog off?


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## Regandal (21 December 2021)

I should add, sm is here to stay. If you don’t want your misdeeds plastered all over it, don’t do any. The fact that the lady knew sabs were around (and likely to be filming) and still whacked the pony speaks volumes re her self control. Or lack of.


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## stangs (21 December 2021)

What are you on about?
		
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You claimed that no one can train a horse without hitting it occasionally. I disagreed.
You then went on to ask me if I've ever used negative reinforcement in training a horse - which was completely off topic because hitting is not an act of negative reinforcement, it's an act of positive punishment. Negative reinforcement is the removal of a negative stimuli - e.g. pressure. Positive punishment is the addition of a negative stimuli - e.g. a hit. Not sure how I can explain that any simpler. 



Cortez said:



Ever worked with a circus trainer? If you think that they train without negative reinforcement, well, you're adorable, as my American friends would say.

Click to expand...

Again we're not talking about negative reinforcement. But, regardless, what's your point? Sure, some circus trainers use negative reinforcement. Most zoo trainers use positive reinforcement. Some circus trainers use bullhooks and electric shocks. Different people train in different ways, and if something can be done with minimal to no use of aversives, I don't know why you'd want to use the one where the animal has to experience some discomfort.


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

Regandal said:



			What is the school supposed to do if all the parents say they don’t want her anywhere near their children? Put her on gardening leave? Give her a good reference to bog off?
		
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If she was a good teacher the school should have defended her and pointed out to parents that her role at school was the relevant one and that the incident was deeply unfortunate and that she had received a warning for bringing the school into disrepute.   That would have been the fair thing to do and perhaps would have demonstrated that the school does not value or pay credence to bullying by extremists or trial by social media...glass houses and all that!!


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

Regandal said:



			What is the school supposed to do if all the parents say they don’t want her anywhere near their children? Put her on gardening leave? Give her a good reference to bog off?
		
Click to expand...


Back we come on a circle to what is so damaging to society about social media witch hunts.

Punishment should fit a crime. In this case,  the crime is so small that it would never make it into court,  yet a woman has had her career destroyed and quite possibly her retirement too, as this will badly affect her pension.  A life sentence for smacking a pony.
.


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## onemoretime (21 December 2021)

Having read through most of this thread and whilst I do not agree with what this lady did, I do wonder if the Sabs had been winding her up prior to this film and that was why she lashed out at the pony.

To quote another incident, the dodgy dealer who sold me a drugged up horse and also gave me 6 bags of feed also laced with bute worked at a University with young people.  Should she have been sacked for animal abuse?


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

Regandal said:



			I should add, sm is here to stay. If you don’t want your misdeeds plastered all over it, don’t do any. The fact that the lady knew sabs were around (and likely to be filming) and still whacked the pony speaks volumes re her self control. Or lack of.
		
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Really?  Is that even possible?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			Academies  are state-funded (maintained) although  directly from DfE rather than through the LA.
		
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Not sure it’s that way in Scotland I think 🧐 in Scotland a high school is maintained by its LA unless Private or Church owned 🧐 Happy to be corrected 😄 I know that the education departments are billed for work carried out but it was done by LA work force in my LA.

The new primaries are maintained by LA here just now and all the High schools have been replaced with new builds on a lease to own basis I think. Those are maintained by a private facility service but the LA Ed sept is billed for anything other than routine maintenance


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## ILuvCowparsely (21 December 2021)

Backtoblack said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-59728476

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good riddance to bad rubbish


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## YorksG (21 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			Not sure it’s that way in Scotland I think 🧐 in Scotland a high school is maintained by its LA unless Private or Church owned 🧐 Happy to be corrected 😄
		
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The school the woman was employed at was in England, was it not?


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			Not sure it’s that way in Scotland I think 🧐 in Scotland a high school is maintained by its LA unless Private or Church owned 🧐 Happy to be corrected 😄 I know that the education departments are billed for work carried out but it was done by LA work force in my LA.

The new primaries are maintained by LA here just now and all the High schools have been replaced with new builds on a lease to own basis I think. Those are maintained by a private facility service but the LA Ed sept is billed for anything other than routine maintenance
		
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The school in question isn't in Scotland but in Leicestershire.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 December 2021)

FestiveG said:



			The school the woman was employed at was in England, was it not?
		
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probably was I just wasn’t sure if it was an English thing or an all uk thing 😃


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 December 2021)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			good riddance to bad rubbish
		
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bit Late to the party perhaps??


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## Regandal (21 December 2021)

palo1 said:



			Really?  Is that even possible?
		
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Which part?  
From what I’ve read on H & H, that hunt are sabbed regularly. Presumably the risk of being filmed is high.


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## Winters100 (21 December 2021)

I find this very sad.  I hate what she did to the pony, terrible way of handling them and a terrible example to the children, BUT if she was teaching my children I would not be asking for her to be sacked.  As she taught primary school I would seek to keep the information away from the children, but if they were told about it from other sources I would speak to them about it, and explain that sometimes good people do bad things, but it is not the sum of who they are.  For me it is too harsh that she loses her livelihood over this incident, for sure I would have agreed if she had been banned by the hunt, and I believe that the Pony Club was right in dismissing her from her voluntary position, but for me a warning from her employer should have been enough.

Edited to add that so far as I know she has not been charged by the RSPCA, is this right?  I am in no way defending what she did, but if an animal welfare organisation is in possession of video evidence, and has witnesses, but still decides not to prosecute, then to me an employer should think along the same lines of a warning.


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## Flame_ (21 December 2021)

Regandal said:



			I should add, sm is here to stay. If you don’t want your misdeeds plastered all over it, don’t do any. The fact that the lady knew sabs were around (and likely to be filming) and still whacked the pony speaks volumes re her self control. Or lack of.
		
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This just came up on my facebook

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-ne...BJm72mtUQQJ-4Zd0k0To-_2MqPNQ63th1QPtWqTevXy50

Mostly great person does a bad thing, is ripped apart online for it, it's too much for her to take and ends her life. This is the direction we are going in. 

It's not OK this showcasing to the world everyone's misdemeanors. Anyone and everyone who ever does anything they shouldn't really, whether intentionally or unintentionally is fair game and could be next. Heaven help anyone else who is a convenient pawn in a massive agenda like sabotaging hunting. It's really scary how easily lives are being destroyed thanks to one filmed mistake.


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## Bernster (21 December 2021)

Some folks are horribly puritanical and vindictive.  What she did was wrong but there are rules and laws for a reason and this awful trial by social media is very worrying.


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## luckyoldme (21 December 2021)

I really would like to think that at least normal procedure s have been followed and that this lady has been sacked because she has fallen short of the standards her employer expects from their employees.
It makes me feel a little bit uneasy and I can't help but wonder if this is more a case of trial by social media.


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## HanniRT (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Back we come on a circle to what is so damaging to society about social media witch hunts.

Punishment should fit a crime. In this case,  the crime is so small that it would never make it into court,  yet a woman has had her career destroyed and quite possibly her retirement too, as this will badly affect her pension.  A life sentence for smacking a pony.
.
		
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This. Absolutely this with massive amounts of tinsel and flashing lights. Her actions and the punishment for it don't match.


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## Cortez (21 December 2021)

stangs said:



			You claimed that no one can train a horse without hitting it occasionally. I disagreed.
You then went on to ask me if I've ever used negative reinforcement in training a horse - which was completely off topic because hitting is not an act of negative reinforcement, it's an act of positive punishment. Negative reinforcement is the removal of a negative stimuli - e.g. pressure. Positive punishment is the addition of a negative stimuli - e.g. a hit. Not sure how I can explain that any simpler.


Again we're not talking about negative reinforcement. But, regardless, what's your point? Sure, some circus trainers use negative reinforcement. Most zoo trainers use positive reinforcement. Some circus trainers use bullhooks and electric shocks. Different people train in different ways, and if something can be done with minimal to no use of aversives, I don't know why you'd want to use the one where the animal has to experience some discomfort.
		
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This is getting waaay off the point of this thread, which was angry lady bad but overreaction of school also bad, but just to address your points above: 

A. Semantics. I'm perfectly sure you understand what I mean by using the term negative reinforcement = administering a physical whack to discourage undesirable behaviours in the horse.

B. I'm also sure you can grasp that if something can be achieved without using a physical reprimand then of course that is the way it will be done. But it can't always be done that way. So what will you do then?


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## sbloom (21 December 2021)

Flame_ said:



			This just came up on my facebook

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-ne...BJm72mtUQQJ-4Zd0k0To-_2MqPNQ63th1QPtWqTevXy50

Mostly great person does a bad thing, is ripped apart online for it, it's too much for her to take and ends her life. This is the direction we are going in. 

It's not OK this showcasing to the world everyone's misdemeanors. Anyone and everyone who ever does anything they shouldn't really, whether intentionally or unintentionally is fair game and could be next. Heaven help anyone else who is a convenient pawn in a massive agenda like sabotaging hunting. It's really scary how easily lives are being destroyed thanks to one filmed mistake.
		
Click to expand...

Caitlin Moran recently said we'll look back on these days of unregulated social media and wonder why on earth we allowed it, it has twisted society in an awful way and this is one example.  We have a real lack of kindness and humanity, for forgiveness and acceptance and we have yet to see how it will continue to unravel us.


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## laura_nash (21 December 2021)

Cortez said:



			A. Semantics. I'm perfectly sure you understand what I mean by using the term negative reinforcement = administering a physical whack to discourage undesirable behaviours in the horse.
		
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I accept that I am a pedantic nerd (and nothing like as good a horsewoman as you) but I do think semantics are important.  Administering a physical whack to discourage undesirable behaviours isn't negative reinforcement, it's positive punishment (whether you agree with it or not).  Negative reinforcement would be doing something  unpleasant that stops when the horse does the wanted action (like circling a napping horse in tight circles until it decides to go forwards).

Of course what the lady this thread is about did isn't either of those things.


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## Cortez (21 December 2021)

laura_nash said:



			I accept that I am a pedantic nerd (and nothing like as good a horsewoman as you) but I do think semantics are important.  Administering a physical whack to discourage undesirable behaviours isn't negative reinforcement, it's positive punishment (whether you agree with it or not).  Negative reinforcement would be doing something  unpleasant that stops when the horse does the wanted action (like circling a napping horse in tight circles until it decides to go forwards).

Of course what the lady this thread is about did isn't either of those things.
		
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Thank you. I understand the way the term is being used by others and it may well be the accepted, technically correct way to use it, but it's not how I "feel" it in my head, IYKWIM. The way negative reinforcement is described there ^^^ sounds like a singularly poor way to train a horse.


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## Rowreach (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			I never said it was, it just makes be laugh how the little clique come out in force everytime someone makes a point against me.  Like backup.  So sad really.
		
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Me and ycbm in a clique 😂😂😂 it's a Christmas miracle 😇🤗


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## Red-1 (21 December 2021)

I hate what the woman did to the pony. I find the photos of his sweet face all scrunched up after being slapped heart breaking (as, I am sure, the young rider did too). 

However, I also think that losing her job, in an unrelated industry, is... interesting. 

I would understand it if she had a CONVICTION for cruelty. Not people's personal opinions, but an actual conviction. Then, I think someone with a conviction for animal cruelty should be fired from a  school. 

I am not aware she has been convicted of anything? As far as I am aware, in this country, people are innocent until proven guilty. I think they jumped the gun. 

I don't think what she did was right (in case anyone was unclear). But, I do believe in following the process of the law. 

I am surprised she didn't resign. I would imagine that work would have been difficult to say the least.


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## laura_nash (21 December 2021)

milliepops said:



			i'm at peace with what i did, and i agree (as does everyone) that what she did was not OK. My post was in response to several on this thread saying it was *never* acceptable to hit a horse. i don't believe it makes sense to have black and white views like that.
		
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Did anyone actually say it's *never* acceptable to hit a horse?  I couldn't see any post saying that but maybe I missed it   I would find that view surprising in anyone whose actually spent any time handling them.  Personally I would say its never helpful to hit a horse in anger, though understandable in some circumstances particularly where safety is involved.

I don't like the mob rule aspect of a lot of the sm stuff (which is why I'm not really on anything except a few horse forums) and certainly don't think it's ok for people to be advocating violence to the lady and her family if that is happening, but the employment aspect is different given her career.  I just think that being a teacher is the wrong career for someone who can't control their temper to the point they lash out physically at a horse like that in public and in front of kids.


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## Upthecreek (21 December 2021)

I am not against animals being given physical corrections as part of training, but I believe they must be timely, appropriate to the situation and proportionate. There was no ‘training’ here. The lady had a bad day and lost her rag. Nobody learned anything.

And yes I have given a horse a whack to the shoulder for barging me and I have grabbed a dog by the scruff of the neck for attacking another dog, but these corrections were given immediately and were a single act of force appropriate to the situation which the animals understood and had somebody filmed them I am pretty sure would not have resulted in me being sacked from my job. The horse in that video had no idea what it was being hit and kicked for, no clue whatsoever.


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## laura_nash (21 December 2021)

Cortez said:



			Thank you. I understand the way the term is being used by others and it may well be the accepted, technically correct way to use it, but it's not how I "feel" it in my head, IYKWIM. The way negative reinforcement is described there ^^^ sounds like a singularly poor way to train a horse.
		
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Sorry, thats a bad example.  A better example might be using a rope halter, where the horse learns to avoid the mild discomfort when it tightens by going into the pressure to get the release.  A lot of horse training uses negative reinforcement.

Personally I think they all have their place in animal training (positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment and negative punishment).  An example of negative punishment would be me walking off with the bucket feed and not giving it because the horse was trying to barge (ie withholding the wanted thing to actively train away wrong behaviour).  It's a shame those terms were chosen though, as "positive", "negative" and "punish" tend to have "good" and "bad" connotations in people's heads even though that is not what they mean in that context.  

ETA Sorry for derailing the thread.


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## char3479 (21 December 2021)

What she did brought the education trust which owns her school, and the school itself, into disrepute. I've know people sacked for less. It's all about reputation in education regardless of the child protection consequences.  Anyone outed in the media as an abuser of animals is going to struggle to keep their job in any environment.


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## milliepops (21 December 2021)

laura_nash said:



			Did anyone actually say it's *never* acceptable to hit a horse?  I couldn't see any post saying that but maybe I missed it   *I would find that view surprising in anyone whose actually spent any time handling them. *

Click to expand...

well i don't want to make this post about me, since we've only just managed to pull it back on track  but posts 123 and 141 have a clear  "never hit a horse ever" about them. which is why i shared my Yes I Kicked My Horse, in extremis, story.

the bold part may well be relevant.


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## Shilasdair (21 December 2021)

Miss_Millie said:



			I am genuinely at a loss as what you are trying to convey with this anecdote?
		
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I know - and this is why you are nowhere near ready to buy your own horse.


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## Shilasdair (21 December 2021)

Cortez said:



			And let me guess: cured the brain tumours?
		
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Oddly enough, both mares (horse and pony) never had another problem.


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## PurBee (21 December 2021)

Possibly her abusing the horse in the presence of minors i.e children, was reason for her dismissal, from a Safeguarding perspective.

Sad situation for all concerned.


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## Goldenstar (21 December 2021)

I do think it’s odd she been sacked before she’s been found guilty of anything .


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## Rowreach (21 December 2021)

char3479 said:



			What she did brought the education trust which owns her school, and the school itself, into disrepute. I've know people sacked for less. It's all about reputation in education regardless of the child protection consequences.  *Anyone outed in the media *as an abuser of animals is going to struggle to keep their job in any environment.
		
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And that, in a nutshell, is what some of us are concerned about.


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## Amymay (21 December 2021)

stangs said:



			c) If giraffes, elephants, lions, bears, zebras, and more can all be trained without positive punishment or even negative reinforcement in most cases - why can't horses?
		
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I think you need to do a little bit more homework on that one…. 😞


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## laura_nash (21 December 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			I do think it’s odd she been sacked before she’s been found guilty of anything .
		
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Criminality and impact on your career aren't really related though are they?  I can think of tons of things I could do that would get me sacked that wouldn't be remotely illegal.


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## rextherobber (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			I have to admit that years ago I had a horse who loved to squash you against things like the fence or the stable wall.  I assume it was malicious, but whatever it was it was highly dangerous.  A much loved and respected old school type vet came out to do my horses vaccination and he asked me if I had any issues with my horse so I told him about him squishing me against things at every opportunity.

He told me next time he did it to stick the end of my bic biro into my young horses ribs. I did so and he jumped about four foot into the air because it hurt him.  But he never did it again.

If I'd ignored the vet and spent the next 11 months of the horses life pushing him and slapping him and hitting him to get him away from me it would have been much worse (for both of us and I could have been seriously injured).  Cruel to be kind comes to mind.  But not the same as kicking and punching a horse.
		
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I had a horse who did the same, it was definitely to harm or intimidate. I just did everything out in the yard, by a gate I could escape through or over, if necessary. I never punished or reacted at all to the horse, other than keeping on doing whatever I was doing . The horse stopped very quickly, and once I'd had her a while and she'd settled down and got used to me, she stopped. It was possibly a year before I would let her get between me and the stable door, but she gradually forgot , or came to realise I was not going to repeat whatever horror someone inflicted on her. I have never behaved to anything living, in the way that that woman did. (Though I have, once, to my shame, beaten the everlasting c%&p out if a computer printer...)


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## Goldenstar (21 December 2021)

And the courts are going to be full of cases for unfair dismissal


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## Goldenstar (21 December 2021)

laura_nash said:



			Criminality and impact on your career aren't really related though are they?  I can think of tons of things I could do that would get me sacked that wouldn't be remotely illegal.
		
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Such as .


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## laura_nash (21 December 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			Such as .
		
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Saying something rude online about one of our customers (or being filmed saying something and it being posted online).  Even if it wasn't in a context related to work (our customers are big companies and I have contact with them as a member of the public / client).


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## onemoretime (21 December 2021)

Flame_ said:



			This just came up on my facebook

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-ne...BJm72mtUQQJ-4Zd0k0To-_2MqPNQ63th1QPtWqTevXy50

Mostly great person does a bad thing, is ripped apart online for it, it's too much for her to take and ends her life. This is the direction we are going in. 

It's not OK this showcasing to the world everyone's misdemeanors. Anyone and everyone who ever does anything they shouldn't really, whether intentionally or unintentionally is fair game and could be next. Heaven help anyone else who is a convenient pawn in a massive agenda like sabotaging hunting. It's really scary how easily lives are being destroyed thanks to one filmed mistake.
		
Click to expand...


This exactly.  I have been very worried that this is how it might end and that is not good for anyone!


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## Shilasdair (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			I have to admit that years ago I had a horse who loved to squash you against things like the fence or the stable wall.  I assume it was malicious, but whatever it was it was highly dangerous.  A much loved and respected old school type vet came out to do my horses vaccination and he asked me if I had any issues with my horse so I told him about him squishing me against things at every opportunity.

He told me next time he did it to stick the end of my bic biro into my young horses ribs. I did so and he jumped about four foot into the air because it hurt him.  But he never did it again.

If I'd ignored the vet and spent the next 11 months of the horses life pushing him and slapping him and hitting him to get him away from me it would have been much worse (for both of us and I could have been seriously injured).  Cruel to be kind comes to mind.  But not the same as kicking and punching a horse.
		
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And if hunt sabs had been videoing you 'stabbing your horse with a pen' you'd have faced the same social media storm and dismissal that the teacher did.
After all the horse was just moving towards you to be friendly (as the horse in the video moved towards the person, too).

Now, I'm not disagreeing with what you did - but surely you can see the parallels?


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

rextherobber said:



			I had a horse who did the same, it was definitely to harm or intimidate. I just did everything out in the yard, by a gate I could escape through or over, if necessary. I never punished or reacted at all to the horse, other than keeping on doing whatever I was doing . The horse stopped very quickly, and once I'd had her a while and she'd settled down and got used to me, she stopped. It was possibly a year before I would let her get between me and the stable door, but she gradually forgot , or came to realise I was not going to repeat whatever horror someone inflicted on her. I have never behaved to anything living, in the way that that woman did. (Though I have, once, to my shame, beaten the everlasting c%&p out if a computer printer...)
		
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So Birker sorted her horse out with one sharp poke in the ribs,  and yours took a year before you felt she could be trusted not to squash you. 

How your approach is better for either the handler or the horse escapes me, I'm afraid.  
.


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## laura_nash (21 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			And if hunt sabs had been videoing you 'stabbing your horse with a pen' you'd have faced the same social media storm and dismissal that the teacher did.
After all the horse was just moving towards you to be friendly (as the horse in the video moved towards the person, too).

Now, I'm not disagreeing with what you did - but surely you can see the parallels?
		
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I disagree.  Sure some of the hunt sabs and PETA types would probably still push that narrative, but I don't think it would be taken up online to the same extent and I don't believe it would impact their employment.  Maybe I have too high a faith in humanity, but I think most people would see the difference even if not horsey.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

Red-1 said:



			I don't think what she did was right (in case anyone was unclear). But, I do believe in following the process of the law.

I am surprised she didn't resign. I would imagine that work would have been difficult to say the least.
		
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She may have done, reading the press release from the school.  It is unclear whether she resigned with an agreed reference, whichis something that the unions negotiate relatively frequently, or was dismissed.  If she was dismissed, I would thinkthat she would have a good case for ET (unfair dismissal).  Either way, I wouldn't expect it will be difficult for her to find another teaching job in the current climate.


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## rextherobber (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			So Birker sorted her horse out with one sharp poke in the ribs,  and yours took a year before you felt she could be trusted not to squash you.

How your approach is better for either the handler or the horse escapes me, I'm afraid. 
.
		
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She was the type to escalate things, not back down.


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## Shilasdair (21 December 2021)

laura_nash said:



			I disagree.  Sure some of the hunt sabs and PETA types would probably still push that narrative, but I don't think it would be taken up online to the same extent and I don't believe it would impact their employment.  Maybe I have too high a faith in humanity, but I think most people would see the difference even if not horsey.
		
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I think you are crediting the horse-loving public with too much sense - think of all the ponies being fed grass cuttings/carrots etc.  Or demanding that fat hairy Shetlands are rugged/stabled.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

Speaking of pedantry and being correct, you can't have 'a stimuli', it's a stimulus or several stimuli - just saying


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## Shilasdair (21 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			Speaking of pedantry and being correct, you can't have 'a stimuli', it's a stimulus or several stimuli - just saying

Click to expand...

I've been trying really, really hard not to comment on the thread where someone announces they have 'brought a horse'.
'Brought it where'?  I find myself thinking.


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## Rowreach (21 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			I've been trying really, really hard not to comment on the thread where someone announces they have 'brought a horse'.
'Brought it where'?  I find myself thinking.
		
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Or where did they bruy it from?


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## Shilasdair (21 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Or where did they bruy it from?
		
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Bring back hanging for grammatical offences!


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			Bring back hanging for grammatical offences!
		
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Yes!   Culprits should be hung! 

😁


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			Bring back hanging for grammatical offences!
		
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All grammatical errors grind my gears but when the offender is 'on their high horse' about something that someone else has said, I find it particularly annoying.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Back we come on a circle to what is so damaging to society about social media witch hunts.

Punishment should fit a crime. In this case,  the crime is so small that it would never make it into court,  yet a woman has had her career destroyed and quite possibly her retirement too, as this will badly affect her pension.  A life sentence for smacking a pony.
.
		
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Lots of sense in this post


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Yes!   Culprits should be hung!

😁
		
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  I know you did that on purpose but I wonder how many other people noticed


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## Rowreach (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Yes!   Culprits should be hung!

😁
		
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*hanged


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## Rowreach (21 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



  I know you did that on purpose but I wonder how many other people noticed 

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Oops sorry I gave it away


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## Shilasdair (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Yes!   Culprits should be hung!

😁
		
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  You utter swine.


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



  I know you did that on purpose but I wonder how many other people noticed 

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I think most people think it's correct and sadly I have strengthened their belief,  my bad 🤣


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## PapaverFollis (21 December 2021)

But isn't it "hung, drawn and quartered"?

Or does that mean "well-endowed, sketched and accommodated"?

Hanged, drawn and quartered?


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

It is hanged drawn and quartered,   Pictures are hung,  criminals are hanged.


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## tristar (21 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			And if hunt sabs had been videoing you 'stabbing your horse with a pen' you'd have faced the same social media storm and dismissal that the teacher did.
After all the horse was just moving towards you to be friendly (as the horse in the video moved towards the person, too).

Now, I'm not disagreeing with what you did - but surely you can see the parallels?
		
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horses that move  to squash you  are not being friendly! how in earth can you think that.

i had a breaker recently who did that but avoided his attempts to squash while teaching him to move his quarters over, he is now ok

the pony in the video was allowing himself to be caught, many a person whose lost hold of horse would have kissed him on the nose, i know i would


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## ycbm (21 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			It is hanged drawn and quartered,   Pictures are hung,  criminals are hanged.
		
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To be fair,  beef and pheasant is also hung and at least they were alive at one point.  🤣


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			To be fair,  beef and pheasant is also hung and at least they were alive at one point.  🤣
		
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But not at the point of hanging!


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## Rowreach (21 December 2021)

They hanged them in such a way that they weren't quite dead when they did all the other things.

People I mean, not pheasants.


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## AdorableAlice (21 December 2021)

And the moral of the whole sorry situation is, always remember that the world, his wife and his dog has a mobile phone capable of recording, photographing and monitoring ones every move, comment and action.  The same mobile phone then has the capability of publishing its findings, to the entire worlds population in a nano second.

Lets hope no one recorded me bringing Ted over the field this evening and having to remind him, via the trusty blue pipe, that he walks nicely with me and does not imitate a tank stuck in fast forward mode because a) its rude and b) my wellies cannot keep up.  

The lady in question is no threat to children, she does not have a criminal record, as she would never have got a job with children in the first place, or a multitude of other positions.  She displayed inappropriate behaviour and a degree of abuse, not abject cruelty.  The incident does not merit any legal action or court time, and for those of you baying for court action, do remember it is us, the tax payer, that foots the bill.

However, she has brought her place of employment into dispute, which is of note, especially in public service.  Did the young woman deserve to lose her job ? no she did not and in other industries I doubt she would have lost her job.  A formal written warning would have been appropriate and a decent manager looking after her going forwards.   There are currently 1,219,000 job vacancies in the UK, lets hope she can work her way back up the ladder and provide for her family.  Kicking a pony in a moment of uncontrolled temper does not warrant a public trial by social media and a destroyed career.


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## tristar (21 December 2021)

Cortez said:



			Why should it concern you? If you think you can handle horses without recourse to the odd slap, go right ahead. Those of us over here in the real world will continue in the full realisation that occasionally you may have to resort to physical reprimand. The lady in the video was acting irrationally, nobody - not one person - has approved of what she was shown doing, but, along with the RSPCA (who know eff all about horse handling BTW) and the PC, many have stopped short of calling it horse abuse. I have seen real abuse: this wasn't that.
		
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to me it was abuse, a kind pony saying ``oops got loose, sorry here i am catch me  `` gets wacked up the gob

it hurts me to watch that


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## char3479 (21 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			And that, in a nutshell, is what some of us are concerned about.
		
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I must correct myself. Not anyone. Apparently it's alright to breach certain standards if you're a member of the Government. I don't condone what she did, and I wouldn't want her teaching my children (there is no place in education`for people with violent tempers). However, I don't agree with the trial by social media. The footage should have been sent privately to the employer imo.


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			And that, in a nutshell, is what some of us are concerned about.
		
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Yes, because in this instance those folk 'outing' this woman had an agenda that was and is hell bent on 'ruining' anyone involved in that particular activity.  We all know we have seen similar unfortunate horse handling elsewhere but it is very rare for anyone to create a social media storm about those things (yet) even when there is wholehearted disapproval for those actions.  This woman is absolutely a victim, not of her very poor horsemanship in this particular incident, but of the agenda of those filming her and starting a witch hunt.


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## Goldenstar (21 December 2021)

It be very interesting to see what the RSPCA I have seen them walk away from much much worse things .


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

onemoretime said:



			This exactly.  I have been very worried that this is how it might end and that is not good for anyone!
		
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Well at the very least it leaves us hostage to any other agenda that a group of people might have...Pro Life/Pro Choice,  farming, science/pharmaceuticals, religion etc etc.  That isn't a democracy.


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## tristar (21 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			I know - and this is why you are nowhere near ready to buy your own horse.
		
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anyone who has achieved what millie did in getting cream on that horses ears  has my admiration, she understands that patience and effort is sometimes rewarded.

it has no bearing on training a horse the two things are unrelated, the first is overcoming a phobia,ie the horse knows what is wanted but cannot comply, the second is communicating how you wish the horse to conduct itself


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## Meredith (21 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			I have to admit that years ago I had a horse who loved to squash you against things like the fence or the stable wall.  I assume it was malicious, but whatever it was it was highly dangerous.  A much loved and respected old school type vet came out to do my horses vaccination and he asked me if I had any issues with my horse so I told him about him squishing me against things at every opportunity.

He told me next time he did it to stick the end of my bic biro into my young horses ribs. I did so and he jumped about four foot into the air because it hurt him.  But he never did it again.

If I'd ignored the vet and spent the next 11 months of the horses life pushing him and slapping him and hitting him to get him away from me it would have been much worse (for both of us and I could have been seriously injured).  Cruel to be kind comes to mind.  But not the same as kicking and punching a horse.
		
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I have a similar story about an old school type horseman. The implement suggested was invented a long time before the ball point pen.


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## Upthecreek (21 December 2021)

All sorts of bad choices not directly related to your job can potentially have unfortunate consequences that affect other aspects of your life, including your employment. I’ve known people lose their jobs after being banned for drink driving when they didn’t need to drive for their job or after going bankrupt when their job had nothing to do with money.

I’m not sure that it’s trial by social media. The consequence of the film being shared on social media is that it’s been seen by millions of people which has led to threats being made to the woman and her family (which is very wrong). If the film had only been sent to her employer this obviously wouldn’t have occurred but would the outcome have been the same? Would she still have lost her job as a primary school teacher if millions of people hadn’t seen the film?


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## milliepops (21 December 2021)

It would have been much easier to deal with via a formal warning if that was more appropriate, if there hadn't been any footage on the news and a whole lot of chatter on SM.


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## shortstuff99 (21 December 2021)

This is an interesting case on this front, it is not an offense to be offensive (or is it)? 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-59727118


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## Pearlsasinger (21 December 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			This is an interesting case on this front, it is not an offense to be offensive (or is it)?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-59727118

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Good Heavens!   It can be hard enough to get the police to record actual crime, such as theft from a car, or burglary.  Why are they even contemplating recording non-crime?


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## stangs (21 December 2021)

Amymay in a manger said:



			I think you need to do a little bit more homework on that one…. 😞
		
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Giraffes - 



Elephants - https://www.stlzoo.org/animals/enrichmenttraining/animaltraining
Lions - https://www.zsl.org/blogs/zsl-london-zoo/how-to-train-a-lion…
Bears - https://www.lpzoo.org/teaming-up-for-a-polar-bear-x-ray/
Zebras - 




I could go on.


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## Cortez (21 December 2021)

I presume you are attempting to prove a point here? There is a world of difference between what a zoo animal is required to do for routine handling purposes and what an animal that is going to be broken, transported, ridden and closely handled. There is no comparison, unless you are planning to ride a giraffe.


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## Shilasdair (21 December 2021)

I may be taking this debate off-topic a little - but does anyone else agree with me that an accused person should be anonymous up until their charges are dropped or a trial is completed?
I always find it deeply uncomfortable when people who are accused of crimes have their lives destroyed before they have even been found guilty.
Am I correct in thinking that there is/was a move for anonymity for accused sex offenders (until guilt proven)?


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## LEC (21 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			I may be taking this debate off-topic a little - but does anyone else agree with me that an accused person should be anonymous up until their charges are dropped or a trial is completed?
I always find it deeply uncomfortable when people who are accused of crimes have their lives destroyed before they have even been found guilty.
Am I correct in thinking that there is/was a move for anonymity for accused sex offenders (until guilt proven)?
		
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One of the big issues is ‘public interest’. It overrules a lot in terms of courts and law.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 December 2021)

stangs said:



			Giraffes - 



Elephants - https://www.stlzoo.org/animals/enrichmenttraining/animaltraining
Lions - https://www.zsl.org/blogs/zsl-london-zoo/how-to-train-a-lion…
Bears - https://www.lpzoo.org/teaming-up-for-a-polar-bear-x-ray/
Zebras - 




I could go on.
		
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how actual sad is this post in general 😂😂😂 

Again there is no comparison 😂😂😂


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			I may be taking this debate off-topic a little - but does anyone else agree with me that an accused person should be anonymous up until their charges are dropped or a trial is completed?
I always find it deeply uncomfortable when people who are accused of crimes have their lives destroyed before they have even been found guilty.
Am I correct in thinking that there is/was a move for anonymity for accused sex offenders (until guilt proven)?
		
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Yes, it is a basic tenet of our justice system though not, I don't think, generally enshrined in law.  Social media is in a very interesting position in terms of that and I often wonder if where social media posts 'out' someone for something whether they are actually prejudicing the legal process. It never seems to bother anyone so I don't know what the facts are or how we get round the whole social media aspect of that.


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## skinnydipper (21 December 2021)

stangs said:



			a) If you hit an animal, that's positive punishment not negative reinforcement. You're adding an undesirable stimuli, not removing one.
		
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Positive punishment:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?ref=search&v=950868142218399&external_log_id=a527a65b-3c46-470f-a8e4-2f9802638220&q=hunt sab


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			how actual sad is this post in general 😂😂😂

Again there is no comparison 😂😂😂
		
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I can't believe the commentator on that video with the zebra actually said ' voluntary participation in their own medical care is very important for welfare...' I don't think that is voluntary participation in their own medical care - I think that is clicker training where the animal associates an action with a reward.  It has nothing to do with participation in medical care and everything to do with reward based standing still!!  How 'adorable', obviously...


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## Boulty (21 December 2021)

I guess my take on this is that through her actions against this pony which were filmed & then shared far & wide on SM she could be said to have brought her profession into disrepute or displayed behaviour that falls below the standards expected of someone in her profession.  I'm not a teacher & so I don't know what the wording of their code of professional conduct is but I believe (& will admit that I've not read it for years so could be wrong) that in my own code of conduct drawn up by the governing body (that I had to verbally take an oath stating I would uphold when I graduated) behaviour outside of work & the standards I'm expected to uphold are covered.  (If I were to do something similar in a public place which was filmed & evidence given to my governing body then I would fully expect not just to be sacked but to potentially be struck off... Granted I DO work in an animal related profession so it's more directly relevant, just using myself as a slightly crap example that professional standards don't necessarily get left at the workplace door & that a lot of employers & governing bodies can be very interested in how their employees / members behave outside of work). 

That said I don't think her full name should have been plastered all over the internet at time of filming.


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## skinnydipper (21 December 2021)

palo1 said:



			I can't believe the commentator on that video with the zebra actually said ' voluntary participation in their own medical care is very important for welfare...' I don't think that is voluntary participation in their own medical care - I think that is clicker training where the animal associates an action with a reward.  It has nothing to do with participation in medical care and everything to do with reward based standing still!!  How 'adorable', obviously...
		
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Preferable to being whacked with a stick though.  See post 312.


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## Upthecreek (21 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			I may be taking this debate off-topic a little - but does anyone else agree with me that an accused person should be anonymous up until their charges are dropped or a trial is completed?
I always find it deeply uncomfortable when people who are accused of crimes have their lives destroyed before they have even been found guilty.
Am I correct in thinking that there is/was a move for anonymity for accused sex offenders (until guilt proven)?
		
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In cases where a crime has allegedly been committed, pending a criminal investigation resulting in either a trial or charges being dropped yes the person should have anonymity because it could prejudice the outcome if they don’t. In cases like this when a person has been filmed in a public place doing something questionable, but not necessarily breaking the law, I don’t think they are entitled to anonymity.

This becomes complicated because it’s not as straightforward as being found guilty or innocent. There’s no doubt the woman did what she did to the horse as it’s on film, but apparently a crime was not committed.


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## Shilasdair (21 December 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			Preferable to being whacked with a stick though.  See post 312.
		
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I am troubled by where the 'abuse' line may lie.

Is it slapping a horse in the face when it comes to you to be caught?  I think we'd all say 'yes'.
Is it using a whip in the wrong place (the shoulder here) for a horse refusing to go forwards?     Again - 'yes'

But then the questions get harder;
Is it using a whip in the right place (behind the leg for forwards, on the shoulder for a run out)?   
Is it using leg aids too strongly, or accidentally drawing blood with a spur if you lose balance?  
Is it using a leg aid at all?
Is it riding at all?

Who decides?  Hunt sabs?   The RSPCA?   The public?


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## Cortez (21 December 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			Preferable to being whacked with a stick though.  See post 312.
		
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Yeah well, whacking it with a stick wouldn't work though, would it? And besides would just be a plain stupid thing to do.


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## Upthecreek (21 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			I am troubled by where the 'abuse' line may lie.

Is it slapping a horse in the face when it comes to you to be caught?  I think we'd all say 'yes'.
Is it using a whip in the wrong place (the shoulder here) for a horse refusing to go forwards?     Again - 'yes'

But then the questions get harder;
Is it using a whip in the right place (behind the leg for forwards, on the shoulder for a run out)?  
Is it using leg aids too strongly, or accidentally drawing blood with a spur if you lose balance? 
Is it using a leg aid at all?
Is it riding at all?

Who decides?  Hunt sabs?   The RSPCA?   The public?
		
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I am troubled by it too, but it will be different for all of us based on our level of understanding of animal behaviour and our previous experience. We can all convince ourselves that what we are doing with our horses is acceptable because they don’t show any obvious signs of distress. Am I being cruel every time I expect my horse to leave his herd and load onto a metal box to travel to a competition?

As for who decides, I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion, unless a crime has been committed which requires formal investigation and to go through the legal process.


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## palo1 (21 December 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			Preferable to being whacked with a stick though.  See post 312.
		
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Erm, yes. Obviously.


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## windand rain (22 December 2021)

The biggest specutation of all is how much abuse, bullying and threatening behaviour by the sabs had gone on against the woman and no I could never condone her actions as it was clearly wrong but again it horrifies me that she has lost her job and may well take her life over a situation that may well have been pushed into by harrassment. She possibly snapped because she was trying to get as quickly as possible away from those vile people to protect her child and the horses involved. At what point does a moment or two in time become a hanging offence. Those trying to justify trial by media should look very closely at themselves first. I would lay good odds that a person with a camera could at least get some very incriminating stills and possible a few moments of video that would condemn most if not all posters. There will have been a jerk on a headcollar a snatch on a bit a ponyclub kick etc. However you look at now a days there are lies, damned lies and camera shots. I personally find close liberty work to be one very cruel sport that should be banned and yet it is accepted as magical


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## bonny (22 December 2021)

windand rain said:



			The biggest specutation of all is how much abuse, bullying and threatening behaviour by the sabs had gone on against the woman and no I could never condone her actions as it was clearly wrong but again it horrifies me that she has lost her job and may well take her life over a situation that may well have been pushed into by harrassment. She possibly snapped because she was trying to get as quickly as possible away from those vile people to protect her child and the horses involved. At what point does a moment or two in time become a hanging offence. Those trying to justify trial by media should look very closely at themselves first. I would lay good odds that a person with a camera could at least get some very incriminating stills and possible a few moments of video that would condemn most if not all posters. There will have been a jerk on a headcollar a snatch on a bit a ponyclub kick etc. However you look at now a days there are lies, damned lies and camera shots. I personally find close liberty work to be one very cruel sport that should be banned and yet it is accepted as magical
		
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Wow, talk about speculation, she might well take her life ? This whole thread is crazy but that’s another level.


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## windand rain (22 December 2021)

bonny said:



			Wow, talk about speculation, she might well take her life ? This whole thread is crazy but that’s another level.
		
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People have and do over far less


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## SEL (22 December 2021)

bonny said:



			Wow, talk about speculation, she might well take her life ? This whole thread is crazy but that’s another level.
		
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 did you see the article yesterday about the young paramedic who took her own life because a photo of her dropping litter went viral? Desperately sad.


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## wills_91 (22 December 2021)

As a parent of a young child, I would not be comfortable leaving my child in the care of someone who had behaved in the manner she did. The footage was very uncomfortable to watch. That said, I do hope she is getting the support required.


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## Sandstone1 (22 December 2021)

The woman should be able to control her temper better, the fact she was a teacher makes it worse.   Hitting and kicking a horse in public when she knows she is likely to be filmed begs the question of what happens to her horses when there is no one around.  Sacking her is her employers decision and they would have more information than we do.  If shes not happy with the decision she can appeal it.


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## rextherobber (22 December 2021)

windand rain said:



			The biggest specutation of all is how much abuse, bullying and threatening behaviour by the sabs had gone on against the woman and no I could never condone her actions as it was clearly wrong but again it horrifies me that she has lost her job and may well take her life over a situation that may well have been pushed into by harrassment. She possibly snapped because she was trying to get as quickly as possible away from those vile people to protect her child and the horses involved. At what point does a moment or two in time become a hanging offence. Those trying to justify trial by media should look very closely at themselves first. I would lay good odds that a person with a camera could at least get some very incriminating stills and possible a few moments of video that would condemn most if not all posters. There will have been a jerk on a headcollar a snatch on a bit a ponyclub kick etc. However you look at now a days there are lies, damned lies and camera shots. I personally find close liberty work to be one very cruel sport that should be banned and yet it is accepted as magical
		
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But it appears to be filmed by someone in a car? She isn't even in shot? It appears to be unedited ? I would agree with the previous poster who said the film was intended to show the road being blocked. The voices of the car occupants aren't effing and blinding, they sound quite reasonable. They may have different beliefs to yours, but it doesn't make them "vile people". The vile person is the woman who is kicking and hitting the totally blameless horse. I would not want my children in her class.


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## laura_nash (22 December 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			Positive punishment:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?ref=search&v=950868142218399&external_log_id=a527a65b-3c46-470f-a8e4-2f9802638220&q=hunt sab

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Er, no, that's just pointlessly whacking them with a stick.


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## Birker2020 (22 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			That is actually the first time on the thread that you have stated that she should be sacked for that single incident in isolation.

Thank you for replying.  I'm happy to disagree with you.
.
		
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Again I didn't say that, you are putting words in my mouth.  You asked me 'was it fair for her to lose her job?'

I answered 'yes she is in a position of trust. As I explained painstakingly throughout this thread, many, many times. Just because you don't agree with what I say doesn't make it any less valid I'm afraid.

You did not ask me 'should she be sacked'.  Please stop trying to twist my words.  How can I know whether she should have been sacked or not, you can only make a balanced judgement based on facts and risks assessed at the time.  I don't know why you are so adverse to me explaining (or trying to) how the system works based on the experience I gained.  when you hear things like 'I can't believe she was sacked because of something on social media' that is a completely inaccurate statement that someone has made.  Its not black and white like that.
'
The case would no doubtedly gone before a professional conduct panel meeting similar to the cases in the links below.  Its not a case of one morning the head teacher decides she wants to get rid of one of her teachers because of something she's seen on social media.  Its not her choice to make, the world doesn't work like that.

There are protocols that have to be adopted and meetings that have to be held surrounding the person in a position of trust (they are never present).  And like I (and many, many people have said) we are not party to all the facts and *maybe* there are previous issues in respect of her conduct that we know nothing about, and so the decision may seem particulary harsh to the majority of people.

Here are forthcoming meetings in relation to teachers:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/teacher...professional-conduct-panel-hearing-or-meeting

I found that link almost straight away, its in the public realm.


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## eahotson (22 December 2021)

windand rain said:



			People have and do over far less
		
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Yes.It has been reported that very sadly a paramedic did after social media like on because she was filmed dropping some litter!!!


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## Birker2020 (22 December 2021)

eahotson said:



			Yes.It has been reported that very sadly a paramedic did after social media like on because she was filmed dropping some litter!!!
		
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Social media can be extremely damaging to peoples mental health as I know only too well.

I think its very sad that she took her own life.


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## CanteringCarrot (22 December 2021)

We all have different thresholds for behavior. If the woman had no past prior behavior like this, shows genuine remorse, and has otherwise good character, some might give her a second chance, some might say this one incident was enough to turn them off and never trust this woman.

There's also the fact that there is a bit of a double standard sometimes(not saying whether this is right or wrong). For example, a parent might make a mistake or commit a certain action, but they're still around their kids everyday because they're the parent. Someone else makes the same mistake and/or action and it's "Oh no, I could never leave my children with them!" Then suddenly this other individual is a "lesser being" clearly unworthy of being around children, but has the parent looked at themselves and their actions and mistakes? Or do we spend so much time looking at others, that we forget self reflection, because it's more difficult?

I totally support the right to choose who you want your kid to be around and that you want to put them with the most perfect person possible, that's human nature, I think, and not my exact point here.

Sure, some of us, or most of us, would never behave as this woman did, but if you did, if you snapped like she did, and your kids saw the video, how would you explain your actions to them and would it be different vs how you explain the actions of a stranger and/or outsider (non immediate family member)?

I mean, the easiest answer is "Well, I have never done and would never do such a thing, so that's not even an issue or question for me." Which is fair enough.

I also think the crux of the matter is proportionality. Did the consequence fit the action? That's where a lot of the disagreement is. Sure, we also have disagreements about how to handle animals physically, but I'm not sure that the consequence was proportionate. There are some other details I'd need to know.

There's also the fact that this person would be known as the "lady that hit her horse" by the kids and there would be chatter. It's possible with a public apology and some time, this would eventually fade a bit, but also, how does it reflect on the employer keeping someone like this around? They're possibly concerned with their image too. Then you get the narratives of "If she hits an animal, what else will she do?" "It's a poor example for the children." "I can't leave my kids around someone like that." It puts the employer in an odd spot.

I do think (and maybe she has, but I haven't paid attention), the woman should apologize for her actions regardless of if her employment was terminated or not if people really value the "what about the kids" stuff. Yes, they'll see that she's no longer there and that she was sacked, but in order to complete the message that this wasn't right and to instill the fact that we need to take responsibility from our mistakes/actions, a public word/apology would be valuable, I think. You can't force it, of course, and if this was already done or discussed then my ramblings are invalid anyway.


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## CanteringCarrot (22 December 2021)

Edit: reinserted post. See above.


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## ycbm (22 December 2021)

It was quite good actually! Proportionality.  Lovely word,  and very apt. 
.


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## CanteringCarrot (22 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			It was quite good actually! Proportionality.  Lovely word,  and very apt.
.
		
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Ok, ok, ok. Putting on my brave pants and I'll keep the post up 😅 for reasons unknown to me, I'm worried about being offensive/perceived as being offenive today. Strange feeling, really 🤣


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## HashRouge (22 December 2021)

Do I think what she did was awful? Yes.

Do I think she should have lost her job over it? No.

The thing is that this could affect her whole life. She has lost her job and may well struggle to find another teaching job (in fact almost certainly will), because a quick google of her name will bring this up. She may well struggle to find another job full stop. As a punishment I don't think that is in proportion with what she has done. She may well never raise a hand to another horse again, but she will be paying the price for this video potentially for decades to come.

As to why she lost her job, I'm willing to bet that it has a lot to do with the reputation of the school. I also work at an independent school and there is no way I would keep my job if a video like this went viral.


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## HackWithMe (22 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			I am, I’m training a youngster, so should I lose my job because he’s stood in my foot and I’ve smacked him to get off, I’ve been in a position of trust most of my life.  Get a grip and stop being sanctimonious.

As I said I hope all you who feeling good about this are good with karma.
		
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Well that’s not what happened is it, it would be different if it but kicked or stood on her foot but she didn’t! She didn’t do anything wrong! She kicked punched and slapped that horse for no reason. A child tried to load her from an angle didn’t work, and she got loose. That horse did not load because she abused her, she only loaded because she was lined up straight and was asked to load. This women deserved what she got. Nobody should be backing her! Actions have consequences and I’m afraid the consequence for her abusing a horse was her loosing her job.


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## CanteringCarrot (22 December 2021)

HashRouge said:



			Do I think what she did was awful? Yes.

Do I think she should have lost her job over it? No.

The thing is that this could affect her whole life. She has lost her job and may well struggle to find another teaching job (in fact almost certainly will), because a quick google of her name will bring this up. She may well struggle to find another job full stop. As a punishment I don't think that is in proportion with what she has done. She may well never raise a hand to another horse again, but she will be paying the price for this video potentially for decades to come.

As to why she lost her job, I'm willing to bet that it has a lot to do with the reputation of the school. I also work at an independent school and there is no way I would keep my job if a video like this went viral.
		
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That the thing, isn't it; the lost income, the potential of lost income over the course of one's entire life (consider pension too), and a career essentially ended over this action. People have received far less of a consequence having done far worse.

There are consequences to our actions, and being held responsible is important, but this may indeed go too far. However, I can see all sides here and I'd have to think a bit as to what the appropriate and proportionate reaction should be, but I also don't know every detail involved in the decision making by the school.


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## Upthecreek (22 December 2021)

CanteringCarrot said:



			That the thing, isn't it; the lost income, the potential of lost income over the course of one's entire life (consider pension too), and a career essentially ended over this action. People have received far less of a consequence having done far worse.

There are consequences to our actions, and being held responsible is important, but this may indeed go too far. However, I can see all sides here and I'd have to think a bit as to what the appropriate and proportionate reaction should be, but I also don't know every detail involved in the decision making by the school.
		
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What in your opinion would she have to have done to the horse to justify losing her job? Thresholds will be different for all of us. Does the person slightly over the drink-drive limit deserve a different consequence to the person twice over the limit? They have both done the same thing, but is one worse than the other?

Every day people in authority such as judges and headteachers have to make decisions on what consequences are appropriate. I would strongly suspect in this case that a teacher would have a clause in her contract about not doing anything that could damage the reputation of the school or not bringing the school into disrepute. I think the situation was made worse because of the association with hunting and I think dismissing her was probably the only course of action that would have been acceptable to the majority of parents of children who attend the school.


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## eahotson (22 December 2021)

Cruelty to horse. I will try and condense what is actually a long story. We will call her B.She was on our yard.Her horse was never allowed out of its stable but not for any reason, other than to be walked round the school for half an hour or so.Yard complained and said it must start going out.She moved.
Three months later she returned with absolutely starved, and I mean starved, not just a little bit skinny.Yard owner shocked as were we all.She was told she must feed and get out vet,farrier and dental technician asap.This she did and horse started to put on weight.His back dropped and so did his abdomen as he had no muscle there.Still not allowed out.More complaints made and she has now left yard.Everyone worried about horse.
She spent hours each day with this horse.I think she was tormenting him in the stable in sly little ways.At no time was she seen hitting him and to hear her talk you would think she was the most caring and knowledgeable of horse owners.
I know whose horse I would prefer to be even at the cost of the odd unpleasant kick or slap.


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## eahotson (22 December 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			What in your opinion would she have to have done to the horse to justify losing her job? Thresholds will be different for all of us. Does the person slightly over the drink-drive limit deserve a different consequence to the person twice over the limit? They have both done the same thing, but is one worse than the other?

Every day people in authority such as judges and headteachers have to make decisions on what consequences are appropriate. I would strongly suspect in this case that a teacher would have a clause in her contract about not doing anything that could damage the reputation of the school or not bringing the school into disrepute. I think the situation was made worse because of the association with hunting and I think dismissing her was probably the only course of action that would have been acceptable to the majority of parents of children who attend the school.
		
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Hunting, conducted properly,is a legal activity.Some people may not agree with it and that is fair enough but it is not, to me, grounds for sacking anyone.


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## Upthecreek (22 December 2021)

eahotson said:



			Hunting, conducted properly,is a legal activity.Some people may not agree with it and that is fair enough but it is not, to me, grounds for sacking anyone.
		
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I agree with you. But I do think the fact that the incident happened at a hunt will have increased pressure on the school to dismiss her. I didn’t say that was right.


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## Upthecreek (22 December 2021)

eahotson said:



			Cruelty to horse. I will try and condense what is actually a long story. We will call her B.She was on our yard.Her horse was never allowed out of its stable but not for any reason, other than to be walked round the school for half an hour or so.Yard complained and said it must start going out.She moved.
Three months later she returned with absolutely starved, and I mean starved, not just a little bit skinny.Yard owner shocked as were we all.She was told she must feed and get out vet,farrier and dental technician asap.This she did and horse started to put on weight.His back dropped and so did his abdomen as he had no muscle there.Still not allowed out.More complaints made and she has now left yard.Everyone worried about horse.
She spent hours each day with this horse.I think she was tormenting him in the stable in sly little ways.At no time was she seen hitting him and to hear her talk you would think she was the most caring and knowledgeable of horse owners.
I know whose horse I would prefer to be even at the cost of the odd unpleasant kick or slap.
		
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Why didn’t anybody report her if the horse was being starved?


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## Pearlsasinger (22 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Again I didn't say that, you are putting words in my mouth.  You asked me 'was it fair for her to lose her job?'

I answered 'yes she is in a position of trust. As I explained painstakingly throughout this thread, many, many times. Just because you don't agree with what I say doesn't make it any less valid I'm afraid.

You did not ask me 'should she be sacked'.  Please stop trying to twist my words.  How can I know whether she should have been sacked or not, you can only make a balanced judgement based on facts and risks assessed at the time.  I don't know why you are so adverse to me explaining (or trying to) how the system works based on the experience I gained.  when you hear things like 'I can't believe she was sacked because of something on social media' that is a completely inaccurate statement that someone has made.  Its not black and white like that.
'
The case would no doubtedly gone before a professional conduct panel meeting similar to the cases in the links below.  Its not a case of one morning the head teacher decides she wants to get rid of one of her teachers because of something she's seen on social media.  Its not her choice to make, the world doesn't work like that.

There are protocols that have to be adopted and meetings that have to be held surrounding the person in a position of trust (they are never present).  And like I (and many, many people have said) we are not party to all the facts and *maybe* there are previous issues in respect of her conduct that we know nothing about, and so the decision may seem particulary harsh to the majority of people.

Here are forthcoming meetings in relation to teachers:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/teacher...professional-conduct-panel-hearing-or-meeting

I found that link almost straight away, its in the public realm.
		
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Upthecreek said:



			What in your opinion would she have to have done to the horse to justify losing her job? Thresholds will be different for all of us. Does the person slightly over the drink-drive limit deserve a different consequence to the person twice over the limit? They have both done the same thing, but is one worse than the other?

Every day people in authority such as judges and headteachers have to make decisions on what consequences are appropriate. I would strongly suspect in this case that a teacher would have a clause in her contract about not doing anything that could damage the reputation of the school or not bringing the school into disrepute. I think the situation was made worse because of the association with hunting and I think dismissing her was probably the only course of action that would have been acceptable to the majority of parents of children who attend the school.
		
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Drink driving is a crime, slapping a horse isn't.   Someone upthread said that the school is in a rural, farming area. If that is the case, I would be astonished if the majority of parents were baying for her dismissal.  If she has been deemed tohave broughtt he school into disrepute it is purely because of the anti-hunting lobby outside the school gate, most of whom will have come from outside the area.   Other schools have had similar problems with out-of-area campaigners demonstrating  at the school gates and making life difficult for every-one.


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## PapaverFollis (22 December 2021)

eahotson said:



			Cruelty to horse. I will try and condense what is actually a long story. We will call her B.She was on our yard.Her horse was never allowed out of its stable but not for any reason, other than to be walked round the school for half an hour or so.Yard complained and said it must start going out.She moved.
Three months later she returned with absolutely starved, and I mean starved, not just a little bit skinny.Yard owner shocked as were we all.She was told she must feed and get out vet,farrier and dental technician asap.This she did and horse started to put on weight.His back dropped and so did his abdomen as he had no muscle there.Still not allowed out.More complaints made and she has now left yard.Everyone worried about horse.
She spent hours each day with this horse.I think she was tormenting him in the stable in sly little ways.At no time was she seen hitting him and to hear her talk you would think she was the most caring and knowledgeable of horse owners.
I know whose horse I would prefer to be even at the cost of the odd unpleasant kick or slap.
		
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I had one of those on a yard I was on.  A horse just being slowly tortured and tormented.   Instagram looked perfect though.   Yard owner tried but no changes made ultimately, kept slipping back.   The owner was a carer actually (the idea of her being in charge of the welfare of vulnerable people made my blood run cold BUT it is entirely possible that she was perfect at her job and only acted out with the horse, people do that too) clearly personality disordered in my view.  I saw her parking in the disabled bay at the supermarket once too, like a total sociopath 🙃.  No consequences for her though.  Noone let the horse get bad enough to report to anyone and she was oblivious to the social derision on the yard that was the natural consequence on her actions.  Localised, in person derision is how we are adapted to control each other's behaviour.  The problems start when this is amplified by social media and hung on political causes and people pretend that we're just doing the age old localised social derision.  No. It's a different thing, with much worse consequences for individuals and society.


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## eahotson (22 December 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			Why didn’t anybody report her if the horse was being starved?
		
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OK the horse was starved on another yard.This woman has previous convictions for animal cruelty.When it reached our yard and the owner/staff saw the condition it was in it was fed believe me.Reporting someone is actually quite difficult.
I tried with the Horse Welfare.They can't enter private premises without the owners permission.They asked me if I could take some photos without putting myself in danger.It was almost impossible as she was always there.I complained to yard owner (and I was not the only one) and she said she was working with horse owner to improve situation which it did a lot to be fair.Her cruelty was often very subtle and covered with this gloop of caring.She has now left the yard again.
RSPCA say that so long as the horse is fed and watered (and on our yard this did happen) there is not a lot they can do.


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## Rowreach (22 December 2021)

Has anyone asked Chris Packham if he's happy now?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (22 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Has anyone asked Chris Packham if he's happy now?
		
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He is a sanctimonious pr!ck of the highest order. He needs to go do one


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## bonny (22 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			He is a sanctimonious pr!ck of the highest order. He needs to go do one
		
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Nice


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## Upthecreek (22 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			Drink driving is a crime, slapping a horse isn't.   Someone upthread said that the school is in a rural, farming area. If that is the case, I would be astonished if the majority of parents were baying for her dismissal.  If she has been deemed tohave broughtt he school into disrepute it is purely because of the anti-hunting lobby outside the school gate, most of whom will have come from outside the area.   Other schools have had similar problems with out-of-area campaigners demonstrating  at the school gates and making life difficult for every-one.
		
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I don’t think it makes a difference whether or not a crime has been committed. My point was that thresholds of what is acceptable behaviour and what is proportionate in terms of consequences will be different for us all.

She has not brought the school into disrepute purely because of the anti-hunting lobby though. She has brought the school into disrepute by being filmed hitting a horse on the face and kicking it. The fact it happened to be at a hunt just makes it worse. I live in a very rural farming area, which is now largely inhabited by people who are not local ‘country people’, but have moved to the area or have second homes here. I can’t think of many who are pro-hunt.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (22 December 2021)

bonny said:



			Nice
		
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Thanks 😃


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## Birker2020 (22 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			He is a sanctimonious pr!ck of the highest order. He needs to go do one
		
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pure speculation....


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## Rowreach (22 December 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			I don’t think it makes a difference whether or not a crime has been committed. My point was that thresholds of what is acceptable behaviour and what is proportionate in terms of consequences will be different for us all.

She has not brought the school into disrepute purely because of the anti-hunting lobby though. She has brought the school into disrepute by being filmed hitting a horse on the face and kicking it. The fact it happened to be at a hunt just makes it worse. I live in a very rural farming area, which is now largely inhabited by people who are not local ‘country people’, but have moved to the area or have second homes here. I can’t think of many who are pro-hunt.
		
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I honestly do not believe that if the incident had been reported to the school as something seen by a few people in the moment, she would have lost her job.

It was the actions of the antis and CP in videoing it and sending it viral that resulted in the woman losing her job. 

I don't condone what she did, but the pure vindictiveness of CP makes me shudder.


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## Rowreach (22 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			pure speculation....

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Nah that's an opinion.


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## Birker2020 (22 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I honestly do not believe that if the incident had been reported to the school as something seen by a few people in the moment, she would have lost her job.

It was the actions of the antis and CP in videoing it and sending it viral that resulted in the woman losing her job.

I don't condone what she did, but the pure vindictiveness of CP makes me shudder.
		
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I don't see it as vindictiveness though.  I think of it as being everyones responsibility to report an abuse of a position of trust. However, I do get that they probably didn't know she was a teacher when they put the film online and that they (sabs) were making a point not realising the implications of doing so.

But the same thing I've been saying all along and I've condensed it from a website.  Where there is an allegation or concern about an adult that works or volunteers in a position of trust, employers and organisations should have clear procedures in place setting out the process, including timescales, for investigation and what support and advice will be available to individuals against whom allegations have been made.  Misconduct outside of the education setting will only amount to  unacceptable professional conduct” if it affects the way the person fulfils their teaching role or if it may lead to pupils being exposed to or influenced by the behaviour in a harmful way.

'Conduct that may bring the profession into disrepute' should be judged by a panel in a similar way. Misconduct outside of the education setting may be considered to be relevant if it is serious and the conduct displayed would likely have a *negative impact on the individual’s status as a teacher, potentially damaging the public’s perception of them, therefore bringing the profession into disrepute.* Panel members should use their knowledge and experience to take into account how the teaching profession is viewed by others, and the influence that teachers may have on pupils, parents and others in the community. Panels should take account of the uniquely influential role that teachers can hold in pupils’ lives and that pupils must be able to view teachers as role models in the way they behave


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## Birker2020 (22 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Nah that's an opinion.
		
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So was mine!  Based on experience.  But because it didn't suit the narrative of certain individuals it was dismissed as being speculation.


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## YorksG (22 December 2021)

Reporting to official bodies is hardly the same as posting on twitter, with the disingenuous message that he was seeking the woman's name to pass to the RSPCA. in my opinion he was deliberately attempting to use social media to create a much harm as possible.


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## Rowreach (22 December 2021)

Now this guy, films himself committing an assault, demands that the footage goes viral, loses his job, and is now painting himself as a victim ...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...Vo45f0EVYREeCEX-RwirrIvk6vpj5kp-BdG2-u2sAtecM


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## Upthecreek (22 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I honestly do not believe that if the incident had been reported to the school as something seen by a few people in the moment, she would have lost her job.

It was the actions of the antis and CP in videoing it and sending it viral that resulted in the woman losing her job.

I don't condone what she did, but the pure vindictiveness of CP makes me shudder.
		
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I agree with you, but the fact is it was filmed and has been viewed by millions, regardless of who filmed it or why. It is what it is. If a few people had seen it and reported it undoubtedly it would have had far less impact and not so severe consequences, but that isn’t what happened. If they had filmed her calmly loading her horses nobody would have been interested. Of course CP’s intention was to show that people who hunt are nasty individuals that also abuse their own animals.


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## Pearlsasinger (22 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Nah that's an opinion.
		
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It would help the level of debate if everyone actually knew what they were talking about, wouldn't it?  You would expect the vast majority of us on this forum tospeak a common language but it seems that some of us make up definitions as we go along.


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## palo1 (22 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			pure speculation....

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Nah! Proven to be sanctimonious and a prick...alleged to be a liar, a fraud and an agent provocateur too.  Not nice.


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## Sandstone1 (22 December 2021)

palo1 said:



			Nah! Proven to be sanctimonious and a prick...alleged to be a liar, a fraud and an agent provocateur too.  Not nice.
		
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He does not beat horses though.....


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## palo1 (22 December 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			He does not beat horses though.....
		
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No, he probably doesn't beat horses - that is true. I guess that makes him ok in spite of all the other stuff then...

But this thread isn't about CP thankfully.


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## Sandstone1 (22 December 2021)

palo1 said:



			No, he probably doesn't beat horses - that is true. I guess that makes him ok in spite of all the other stuff then...

But this thread isn't about CP thankfully.
		
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No it is not, just seems to be turning in to a C P bashing thread.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (22 December 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			He does not beat horses though.....
		
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Personally that, I’m my book, doesn’t absolve him of all His many other sins 🙄


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## Rowreach (22 December 2021)

palo1 said:



			No, he probably doesn't beat horses - that is true. I guess that makes him ok in spite of all the other stuff then...

But this thread isn't about CP thankfully.
		
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But now we know that the threshold is that anything goes so long as someone doesn't "beat" horses.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (22 December 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			No it is not, just seems to be turning in to a C P bashing thread.
		
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If he causes another Caroline Flack situation with what he has done then I can guarantee the bashing will be worse than being called a sanctimonious Pr!ck


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## Rowreach (22 December 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			No it is not, just seems to be turning in to a C P bashing thread.
		
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It's been about three posts today, which considering he is central to what happened after the video was taken, makes him rather relevant.


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## Birker2020 (22 December 2021)

HashRouge said:



			Do I think what she did was awful? Yes.

Do I think she should have lost her job over it? No.

The thing is that this could affect her whole life. She has lost her job and may well struggle to find another teaching job (in fact almost certainly will), because a quick google of her name will bring this up. She may well struggle to find another job full stop. As a punishment I don't think that is in proportion with what she has done. She may well never raise a hand to another horse again, but she will be paying the price for this video potentially for decades to come.

As to why she lost her job, I'm willing to bet that it has a lot to do with the reputation of the school. I also work at an independent school and there is no way I would keep my job if a video like this went viral.
		
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If you were a bank manager and someone was being interviewed for a cashiers job but you knew they had robbed a bank in the past, would you employ them?
If you were the senior partner in a law firm and you knew that the person you were interviewing had been suspended whilst being investigated fraud would you employ them?
If you were the owner of a child care facility and someone applied for a job that you knew had lost their temper with an animal in their care.  Would you employ them?

When there is any possiblity of a transference of risk you would have to ascertain that persons suitability for their role, or if the risks are significant enough to be a cause for concern.

No to all three I would have thought.


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## milliepops (22 December 2021)

I'm not a recruiter but if someone was suspended pending investigation, and the investigation found they were not guilty of anything then it would be pretty crap if that was held against them forevermore.
People in my org have kept their job after being put on gardening leave while something was quickly investigated. they did nothing wrong, an investigation is to find out what happened not to say that person is guilty of anything.


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## Rowreach (22 December 2021)

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/19473345.chris-packham-tackles-mental-health-new-bbc-show/

So, he is aware of the issue of SM leading to people taking their own lives.


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## PapaverFollis (22 December 2021)

Never mind employment... Let's chuck everyone who has ever done a Wrong Thing out of society altogether. That should minimise the risk of Wrong Doing.   How about some kind of camp? Maybe we could employ the Bad People in some kind of menial work that is a bit beneath the Good People?  That sounds like a plan.  We can at least make the Bad People wear a badge for the rest of their lives so we can spot them easily.

How do we decide who is Bad? Well, we'll let the mob decide. That way the authorities can wash their hands of the consequences.  "Crucify Him!" they shouted so it is on them.

These tales are as old as time aren't they? Is it ever good?


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## Noble (22 December 2021)

I think given the facts we have and without speculating, 

Was her behavior acceptable - No

Did she deserve to loose her job - No


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## Asha (22 December 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			Never mind employment... Let's chuck everyone who has ever done a Wrong Thing out of society altogether. That should minimise the risk of Wrong Doing.   How about some kind of camp? Maybe we could employ the Bad People in some kind of menial work that is a bit beneath the Good People?  That sounds like a plan.  We can at least make the Bad People wear a badge for the rest of their lives so we can spot them easily.

How do we decide who is Bad? Well, we'll let the mob decide. That way the authorities can wash their hands of the consequences.  "Crucify Him!" they shouted so it is on them.

These tales are as old as time aren't they? Is it ever good?
		
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Totally agree. What she did was wrong, without question. But this trial by people who dont know the full facts is just as wrong.

Leave the woman alone now.


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## Cortez (22 December 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			Never mind employment... Let's chuck everyone who has ever done a Wrong Thing out of society altogether. That should minimise the risk of Wrong Doing.   How about some kind of camp? Maybe we could employ the Bad People in some kind of menial work that is a bit beneath the Good People?  That sounds like a plan.  We can at least make the Bad People wear a badge for the rest of their lives so we can spot them easily.

How do we decide who is Bad? Well, we'll let the mob decide. That way the authorities can wash their hands of the consequences.  "Crucify Him!" they shouted so it is on them.

These tales are as old as time aren't they? Is it ever good?
		
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This is where, if we're not careful, cancel culture will take us. It's also why we have things called laws, courts, judges, etc.


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## Upthecreek (22 December 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			Never mind employment... Let's chuck everyone who has ever done a Wrong Thing out of society altogether. That should minimise the risk of Wrong Doing.   How about some kind of camp? Maybe we could employ the Bad People in some kind of menial work that is a bit beneath the Good People?  That sounds like a plan.  We can at least make the Bad People wear a badge for the rest of their lives so we can spot them easily.

How do we decide who is Bad? Well, we'll let the mob decide. That way the authorities can wash their hands of the consequences.  "Crucify Him!" they shouted so it is on them.

These tales are as old as time aren't they? Is it ever good?
		
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So is the alternative that people can do whatever they want without being called out on it as long as it’s not illegal? (and I’m not saying that splashing stuff all over social media is the right way to go either). If there are no consequences for bad or inappropriate behaviour what will happen to society then? I don’t know what the answer is by the way, but I am interested in people’s views on this.

Slightly off topic, but what about famous people who have historic unsavoury stuff they put on social media dug up many years later and their careers end or badly suffer as a result? We need to realise and be mindful that anything we say or do now can be dragged up and used against us thanks to social media.


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## milliepops (22 December 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			Slightly off topic, but what about famous people who have historic unsavoury stuff they put on social media dug up many years later and their careers end or badly suffer as a result? We need to realise and be mindful that anything we say or do now can be dragged up and used against us thanks to social media.
		
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i actually hate it when that happens, quite often the person who gets stuff dragged up has changed substantially in their views or attitudes. it's like saying people can never change or learn. I think they can, they might forget that they said something once 15 years ago when they were young and stupid or naive.


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## YorksG (22 December 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			So is the alternative that people can do whatever they want without being called out on it as long as it’s not illegal? (and I’m not saying that splashing stuff all over social media is the right way to go either). If there are no consequences for bad or inappropriate behaviour what will happen to society then? I don’t know what the answer is by the way, but I am interested in people’s views on this.

Slightly off topic, but what about famous people who have historic unsavoury stuff they put on social media dug up many years later and their careers end or badly suffer as a result? We need to realise and be mindful that anything we say or do now can be dragged up and used against us thanks to social media.
		
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The bottom line is that behaviour is either legal or not, that can and does include hate crimes on social media. If the behaviour is legal, then while you may not like it, and especially if it does not impinge on you, then you have no right to know about it, let alone judge and decide who should and should not be punished.


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## Pearlsasinger (22 December 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			So is the alternative that people can do whatever they want without being called out on it as long as it’s not illegal? (and I’m not saying that splashing stuff all over social media is the right way to go either). If there are no consequences for bad or inappropriate behaviour what will happen to society then? I don’t know what the answer is by the way, but I am interested in people’s views on this.

Slightly off topic, but what about famous people who have historic unsavoury stuff they put on social media dug up many years later and their careers end or badly suffer as a result? We need to realise and be mindful that anything we say or do now can be dragged up and used against us thanks to social media.
		
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Yes.  Who do you think should be the judge of whether legal behacviour should be called out?  You?  Me?   CP? Or somebody who has had an ASBO against him?   The list could be endless but we already have a perfectly workable system within the law.


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## Birker2020 (22 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			Yes.  Who do you think should be the judge of whether legal behacviour should be called out?  You?  Me?   CP? Or somebody who has had an ASBO against him?   The list could be endless but we already have a perfectly workable system within the law.
		
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Child protection or Position of Trust. Experts who have multi agency input (training providers/head teacher/police) and sit around the table and discuss the person of interest. They who have years of experience headed by a LADO (Local Authority Designated Officer) who chairs the meeting.  Where every aspect of the person under scrutiny's life is examined from their home life, whether they have a criminal record, previous allegations made against them, previous work history, any additional information.  All goes in the cooking pot.  And out comes the outcome which is then acted on.

Before the meeting is held it has to be decided whether it meets the threshold. If it doesn't no meeting will take place but the head of the school may be advised on the actions he/she should take, and whether that is suspension, sacking or additional training.  The head may wish to get additional information about the incident or talk to witnesses or whatever.

Its not for us to comment whether or not they are guilty or not. But its frustrating when people keep saying "they only got the sack because the hunt sabs caused them to lose their job" or "its because of social media" or "because the school felt under pressure due to the public outcry".  All those statements are incorrect as the law and protocols don't work like that.

And people who say "its not right she lost her job, complete overreaction" are not party to all the facts.  And not everything is black and white in life and there are reasons for everything.  I am not suggesting there is no smoke without fire but we are not party to the facts so there may be every justification for doing what they have done, nobody knows.


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## Upthecreek (22 December 2021)

FestiveG said:



			The bottom line is that behaviour is either legal or not, that can and does include hate crimes on social media. If the behaviour is legal, then while you may not like it, and especially if it does not impinge on you, then you have no right to know about it, let alone judge and decide who should and should not be punished.
		
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But due to social media we do know about it and we do make judgments on what we see every single day. Of course the general public don’t get to decide on punishments, but we are all entitled to an opinion on things that are in the public domain regardless of whether or not they impinge on us personally.


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## Upthecreek (22 December 2021)

milliepops said:



			i actually hate it when that happens, quite often the person who gets stuff dragged up has changed substantially in their views or attitudes. it's like saying people can never change or learn. I think they can, they might forget that they said something once 15 years ago when they were young and stupid or naive.
		
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It’s scary that once the information is out there you can’t take it back. I am constantly banging on about that to my kids because they live their lives on social media and it’s worrying that something they do or say as young people could go against them many years in the future. Some employers do background checks by looking at the social media of prospective job candidates for example.


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## ycbm (22 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			If you were a bank manager and someone was being interviewed for a cashiers job but you knew they had robbed a bank in the past, would you employ them?
If you were the senior partner in a law firm and you knew that the person you were interviewing had been suspended whilst being investigated fraud would you employ them?
If you were the owner of a child care facility and someone applied for a job that you knew had lost their temper with an animal in their care.  Would you employ them?

When there is any possiblity of a transference of risk you would have to ascertain that persons suitability for their role, or if the risks are significant enough to be a cause for concern.

No to all three I would have thought.
		
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There is a very big difference between taking on a new employee and sacking one you already employ.


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## milliepops (22 December 2021)

i expect that it's  fairly common now to screen on SM presence. but i still think it wouldn't be *proportionate* to make a decision on employing someone who posted something stupid when they were a teenager, for example.  Not to say that wouldn't ever happen of course.


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## YorksG (22 December 2021)

milliepops said:



			i expect that it's  fairly common now to screen on SM presence. but i still think it wouldn't be *proportionate* to make a decision on employing someone who posted something stupid when they were a teenager, for example.  Not to say that wouldn't ever happen of course.
		
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Even less so to base the decision on what other people claimed to believe about the content


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## Asha (22 December 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			But due to social media we do know about it and we do make judgments on what we see every single day. Of course the general public don’t get to decide on punishments, but we are all entitled to an opinion on things that are in the public domain regardless of whether or not they impinge on us personally.
		
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But we should also be mindful that this is about one woman. Who,  i would imagine is having a pretty tough time right now.


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## Birker2020 (22 December 2021)

Asha said:



			But we should also be mindful that this is about one woman. Who,  i would imagine is having a pretty tough time right now.
		
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Yes I would imagine she is having a rubbish time of things and I feel sorry for her.  Its a horrible situation for her to be in but even so, kicking a horse in public is only ever going to end one way.


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## YorksG (22 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Yes I would imagine she is having a rubbish time of things and I feel sorry for her.  Its a horrible situation for her to be in but even so, kicking a horse in public is only ever going to end one way.
		
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Only if it is spread on social media, particularly by a known activist, who has a high profile because of his employment on a public broadcasting service.


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## milliepops (22 December 2021)

FestiveG said:



			Only if it is spread on social media, particularly by a known activist, who has a high profile because of his employment on a public broadcasting service.
		
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that, and because people like baying for blood


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## ycbm (22 December 2021)

There are three sets of responses to this.

1. Anyone who kicks a pony once in the belly and slaps its nose 3 times deserves everything coming to them no matter how bad that is.

2. Anyone who kicks a pony once in the belly and slaps its nose 3 times and is unlucky or stupid enough to get themselves filmed doing it  deserves everything coming to them no matter how bad that is.

3. People should receive a punishment which is proportionate to the rules they can be proved to have  infringed.

I am happy to be in group 3 and hope the people in groups 1 and 2 never have to live to experience the possible consequences of a society that lives by those rules.


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## Tiddlypom (22 December 2021)

4. Anyone employed as a primary school teacher who is filmed clearly and visibly losing their temper in public resulting in them hitting an animal several times should not be surprised if parents would rather not have their children taught by them in future.


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## sbloom (22 December 2021)

If said teacher had 15 years brilliant service and was a great teacher then I'd hope that there would be a sensible discussion about not losing a valued member of staff when it's not like people are falling over themselves to get into, and stay in, teaching.  That we start to reverse the trend of parents not backing up the school when it comes to conflict, not trusting them.


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## honetpot (22 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Yes I would imagine she is having a rubbish time of things and I feel sorry for her.  Its a horrible situation for her to be in but even so, kicking a horse in public is only ever going to end one way.
		
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 She has not been convicted of anything, which makes this madness.
 Lots of people do stupid things, particularly young men, and are convicted, 
'There are over 11 million people in the UK with a criminal record. 3 Research4 shows that *1 in 3 men have a criminal* record. Of those men with a criminal record, just over half of these had been convicted on only one occasion, and 85% were convicted before they were 30 years old.'
 That's why I think she would have been better leaving her job, and moving on to another.


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## ycbm (22 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			4. Anyone employed as a primary school teacher who is filmed clearly and visibly losing their temper in public resulting in them hitting an animal several times should not be surprised if parents would rather not have their children taught by them in future.
		
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That's in 1 or 2 and also covered by "proportionate" in 3.


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## Upthecreek (22 December 2021)

Asha said:



			But we should also be mindful that this is about one woman. Who,  i would imagine is having a pretty tough time right now.
		
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I’m sure that she and her family have suffered horrendous abuse and I really feel for them.


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## Clodagh (22 December 2021)

I am pro hunting.
I have lost my temper before.
At the end of the day she bogged it. She had her days hunting ruined and took it out on her daughter’s (I assume) pony. What she did would have been slightly more acceptable if the pony was being bad to load, but it wasn’t.
She massively blew the situation and I’m afraid had the sacking coming. She took her fury with the situation out on an animal. Silly.


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## Tiddlypom (22 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			That's in 1 or 2 and also covered by "proportionate" in 3.
		
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4 didn't say that she fully deserved everything else that has come at her, though, which 1 and 2 do. It says that she should not be surprised at what happened, not that she deserves it all.

People can do very undesirable things that do not infringe formal 'rules'.

She can appeal if she feels that she was sacked unfairly. I would expect a school and/or educational trust to support a valued colleague who they thought had acted out of character.


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## Rowreach (22 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			There are three sets of responses to this.

1. Anyone who kicks a pony once in the belly and slaps its nose 3 times deserves everything coming to them no matter how bad that is.

2. Anyone who kicks a pony once in the belly and slaps its nose 3 times and is unlucky or stupid enough to get themselves filmed doing it  deserves everything coming to them no matter how bad that is.

3. People should receive a punishment which is proportionate to the rules they can be proved to have  infringed.

I am happy to be in group 3 and hope the people in groups 1 and 2 never have to live to experience the possible consequences of a society that lives by those rules.
		
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3


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## Upthecreek (22 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			There are three sets of responses to this.

1. Anyone who kicks a pony once in the belly and slaps its nose 3 times deserves everything coming to them no matter how bad that is.

2. Anyone who kicks a pony once in the belly and slaps its nose 3 times and is unlucky or stupid enough to get themselves filmed doing it  deserves everything coming to them no matter how bad that is.

3. People should receive a punishment which is proportionate to the rules they can be proved to have  infringed.

I am happy to be in group 3 and hope the people in groups 1 and 2 never have to live to experience the possible consequences of a society that lives by those rules.
		
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I don’t think anyone has said anything along the lines of 1 or 2 though. It would be pretty terrible to say that someone “deserves everything coming to them no matter how bad that is”.

And regarding 3, if her actions mean that she has breached the terms of her contract of employment dismissal is a proportionate punishment.


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## Rowreach (22 December 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			I don’t think anyone has said anything along the lines of 1 or 2 though. It would be pretty terrible to say that someone “deserves everything coming to them no matter how bad that is”.

And regarding 3, if her actions mean that she has breached the terms of her contract of employment dismissal is a proportionate punishment.
		
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Re-read the first few posts on the thread and you’ll find several, and they weren’t the only ones


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## Mrs. Jingle (22 December 2021)

I can only repeat my view - I do feel that what was on the video wasn't pretty to watch, but far, far away from abuse of horses I have witnessed on many occasions unfortunately. But I also feel that her 'punishment' was ridiculously over the top. Hence my earlier comment wondering does she already have black marks on her record with the school and this was the last straw that broke the camel's back so to speak? But I am only guessing and doubt we will ever be privy to that information.

Unless she appeals of course, if it was only this one over blown incident I hope she does appeal successfully to be honest.


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## Winters100 (22 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			If you were a bank manager and someone was being interviewed for a cashiers job but you knew they had robbed a bank in the past, would you employ them?
If you were the senior partner in a law firm and you knew that the person you were interviewing had been suspended whilst being investigated fraud would you employ them?
If you were the owner of a child care facility and someone applied for a job that you knew had lost their temper with an animal in their care.  Would you employ them?

When there is any possiblity of a transference of risk you would have to ascertain that persons suitability for their role, or if the risks are significant enough to be a cause for concern.

No to all three I would have thought.
		
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But do you seriously think that there is a risk, based upon this video, of this woman losing her temper in a school setting and hitting a child? I would have 0 worries if she was teaching mine. If others were foolish enough to tell their children and let the news leak to mine then I would probably be incredibly irritated to have to spend time thinking about a good way to discuss it with them, but it would not cross my mind that they might be at risk from this teacher, to me that is just a total exaggeration of danger.  I do not in any way condone what she did, nasty and ineffective, but talking about a transference of risk is too much. She should clearly not be teaching how to handle ponies, but this does not mean that she cannot teach them to read and write.

Regarding would I hire her, well it would depend, and as others have said the question of would you hire someone is a very different issue to would you fire an existing employee. Sadly I think that this lady will find that people are reluctant, not because she poses a risk, but because she has become high profile so they may find objections from parents, or demonstrations from the anti-hunt lobby outside their school.  This is what I find really sad about the situation, that the punishment is so out of proportion to the crime.


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## ester (22 December 2021)

It did take longer to get to this point than I thought it would.


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## Upthecreek (22 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Re-read the first few posts on the thread and you’ll find several, and they weren’t the only ones
		
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I have re-read them and yes some people have made unpleasant comments about the lady in question and some have said she deserved to lose her job, but I cannot see that anyone has said that she “deserves everything coming to her *no matter how bad that is*”. That is something else entirely.


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## Tiddlypom (22 December 2021)

A short fuse that you have demonstrated that you can't control is a short fuse. Who knows when something else might trigger it? 

Primary school and nursery school teachers need to have endless patience.

In other careers, a short temper may not be such a hindrance, but it has no place when teaching at primary school level.


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## palo1 (22 December 2021)

For those folks happy enough to see her sacked, there are also consequences for her family and possibly for those horses.   This is something taken into account when a court of law judges and sentences someone but not in the court of social media.  I wonder what the impact of this dismissal will be on her children, her partner, her animals?   All of those potentially will be punished, possibly in a life-changing way and that surely cannot have been anyone's intention...  I get that the anti-hunt lobby are single-minded and tunnel visioned but you would hope even they may have thought through their insistence on extreme sanction.  I don't imagine CP will have really thought this through to any conclusion but if he has, well, that is an extraordinarily spiteful and dangerous road that he and others have walked down here. 

I have heard some utterly vile things spoken by sabs/anti-hunt protestors including death wishes of course.  Perhaps they mean it...


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## wills_91 (22 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			A short fuse that you have demonstrated that you can't control is a short fuse. Who knows when something else might trigger it?

Primary school and nursery school teachers need to have endless patience.

In other careers, a short temper may not be such a hindrance, but it has no place when teaching at primary school level.
		
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This. I am one parent who would not be happy to have someone who had acted like this teach my children. Had the pony been behaving like an arse I might have had more sympathy for her, as I am sure we have all been there but it wasn't and she lost control very quickly over nothing and that is not acceptable.


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## Upthecreek (22 December 2021)

palo1 said:



			For those folks happy enough to see her sacked, there are also consequences for her family and possibly for those horses.   This is something taken into account when a court of law judges and sentences someone but not in the court of social media.  I wonder what the impact of this dismissal will be on her children, her partner, her animals?   All of those potentially will be punished, possibly in a life-changing way and that surely cannot have been anyone's intention...  I get that the anti-hunt lobby are single-minded and tunnel visioned but you would hope even they may have thought through their insistence on extreme sanction.  I don't imagine CP will have really thought this through to any conclusion but if he has, well, that is an extraordinarily spiteful and dangerous road that he and others have walked down here.

I have heard some utterly vile things spoken by sabs/anti-hunt protestors including death wishes of course.  Perhaps they mean it...
		
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Activists tend to hold extremist views and many have zero regard for the lives of people who oppose them. I’m sure the film was shared with the intention that the woman would face life-changing consequences. I would be very surprised if any that were involved in this feel any sympathy at all for this family. They will be delighted that someone involved in hunting has lost her job and rubbing their hands with glee at the negative publicity this has created for hunting.


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## Sandstone1 (22 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			If he causes another Caroline Flack situation with what he has done then I can guarantee the bashing will be worse than being called a sanctimonious Pr!ck
		
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But are you not doing the same thing to CP?


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## YorksG (22 December 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			Activists tend to hold extremist views and many have zero regard for the lives of people who oppose them. I’m sure the film was shared with the intention that the woman would face life-changing consequences. I would be very surprised if any that were involved in this feel any sympathy at all for this family. They will be delighted that someone involved in hunting has lost her job and rubbing their hands with glee at the negative publicity this has created for hunting.
		
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I'm fairly sure that this was indeed the intended outcome


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## Flame_ (22 December 2021)

wills_91 said:



			she lost control very quickly over nothing and that is not acceptable.
		
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We haven't seen the build up to the incident. When people endure being hounded, harassed, intimidated and provoked whilst trying to enjoy their leisure time, they must hold in a lot of justifiable hurt and anger. Of course it appears that she "lost it" quickly and over nothing when one frustration got too much. That's what happens, it's a strategy of trouble-causers.


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## Pearlsasinger (22 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Child protection or Position of Trust. Experts who have multi agency input (training providers/head teacher/police) and sit around the table and discuss the person of interest. They who have years of experience headed by a LADO (Local Authority Designated Officer) who chairs the meeting.  Where every aspect of the person under scrutiny's life is examined from their home life, whether they have a criminal record, previous allegations made against them, previous work history, any additional information.  All goes in the cooking pot.  And out comes the outcome which is then acted on.

Before the meeting is held it has to be decided whether it meets the threshold. If it doesn't no meeting will take place but the head of the school may be advised on the actions he/she should take, and whether that is suspension, sacking or additional training.  The head may wish to get additional information about the incident or talk to witnesses or whatever.

Its not for us to comment whether or not they are guilty or not. But its frustrating when people keep saying "they only got the sack because the hunt sabs caused them to lose their job" or "its because of social media" or "because the school felt under pressure due to the public outcry".  All those statements are incorrect as the law and protocols don't work like that.

And people who say "its not right she lost her job, complete overreaction" are not party to all the facts.  And not everything is black and white in life and there are reasons for everything.  I am not suggesting there is no smoke without fire but we are not party to the facts so there may be every justification for doing what they have done, nobody knows.
		
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I'm sorry but no LADO has ever watched a video of someone hitting or kicking a horse and decided that it is a Safeguarding Children issue.


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## wills_91 (22 December 2021)

Flame_ said:



			We haven't seen the build up to the incident. When people endure being hounded, harassed, intimidated and provoked whilst trying to enjoy their leisure time, they must hold in a lot of justifiable hurt and anger. Of course it appears that she "lost it" quickly and over nothing when one frustration got too much. That's what happens, it's a strategy of trouble-causers.
		
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Fair point, I hadn't actually considered that.


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## maggiestar (22 December 2021)

Flame_ said:



			We haven't seen the build up to the incident. When people endure being hounded, harassed, intimidated and provoked whilst trying to enjoy their leisure time, they must hold in a lot of justifiable hurt and anger. Of course it appears that she "lost it" quickly and over nothing when one frustration got too much. That's what happens, it's a strategy of trouble-causers.
		
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I completely agree, the sabs were probably delighted to elicit such a reaction from her and I understand how frustrating it must be to have to deal with them. But she took it all out on an entirely innocent pony. Such mischannelled aggression and rage rings huge alarm bells for me. That said, I can't bear social media witchhunts or sanctimonious bullies. I hope if nothing else this episode will help her reflect on her temper and hopefully move on to happier times. Unfortunately social media is here to stay and this is a lesson for us all


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## honetpot (22 December 2021)

When I am at work I have my game face on, you can say just about anything to me, be as vile, abusive, and generally awkward as you like, and you will get a sweet smile, and a kind word. It's a performance. I would like to think I am reasonable in RL, but I am actually far more direct, and I swear a lot.   My dad was a builder, in the house I never heard in swear, I once came up behind him when he was working with his labourer, and the language was foul, and he was very embarrassed.
  Why is so difficult to believe that we behave differently in different situations, and act and speak differently depending on who we are talking to, and the context.


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## milliepops (22 December 2021)

honetpot said:



			When I am at work I have my game face on, you can say just about anything to me, be as vile, abusive, and generally awkward as you like, and you will get a sweet smile, and a kind word. It's a performance. I would like to think I am reasonable in RL, but I am actually far more direct, and I swear a lot.   My dad was a builder, in the house I never heard in swear, I once came up behind him when he was working with his labourer, and the language was foul, and he was very embarrassed.
  Why is so difficult to believe that we behave differently in different situations, and act and speak differently depending on who we are talking to, and the context.
		
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This! 
My work persona is quite different to my leisure time one, I'm different with my friends to with my horses and so on. Most people are capable of adapting to the role they are in at the time.


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## scats (22 December 2021)

honetpot said:



			When I am at work I have my game face on, you can say just about anything to me, be as vile, abusive, and generally awkward as you like, and you will get a sweet smile, and a kind word. It's a performance. I would like to think I am reasonable in RL, but I am actually far more direct, and I swear a lot.   My dad was a builder, in the house I never heard in swear, I once came up behind him when he was working with his labourer, and the language was foul, and he was very embarrassed.
  Why is so difficult to believe that we behave differently in different situations, and act and speak differently depending on who we are talking to, and the context.
		
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I swear like a trouper and can be very direct.  But the second I walked into the classroom I could switch that off no problem and be endlessly patient, avoid confrontation and never once let my language slip.  Then I would walk into the staff room with my friends and go back to my default mode.  I thought it was quite a normal thing to be able to do but apparently not.


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## palo1 (22 December 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			Activists tend to hold extremist views and many have zero regard for the lives of people who oppose them. I’m sure the film was shared with the intention that the woman would face life-changing consequences. I would be very surprised if any that were involved in this feel any sympathy at all for this family. They will be delighted that someone involved in hunting has lost her job and rubbing their hands with glee at the negative publicity this has created for hunting.
		
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Yes, you are right.  That is a pretty unpleasant position to take of course and the consequences for her family and her animals are of no interest to those who want to see the headlines, create the witch hunt and see that individual destroyed.  Grim.  That isn't how a liberal democracy or even just decent adults are supposed to operate.


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## Ceriann (22 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			I'm sorry but no LADO has ever watched a video of someone hitting or kicking a horse and decided that it is a Safeguarding Children issue.
		
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I think the stat guidance issued for schools by the DfE has a harms threshold for allegations against staff. You can meet this threshold in respect of actions outside work and the threshold also includes behaviour that indicates they may not be suitable to work with children.  It’s pretty wide and understandably so.  I have no idea if this was one of the issues this school considered when terminating this teacher’s employment but it would not have been an easy thing for the school to ignore if it was raised by parents.  I would hope there is no LADO precedent on videos involving animal abuse.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (22 December 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			But are you not doing the same thing to CP?
		
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yeah because im whipping up millions of
People to find out his address and where he is and working right now and sending people there 🙄 lucky if I have ten followers on twitter. Then again I couldn’t tell you my log in so I think it would be rather hard for me to start a personal witch hunt 🙄


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## ycbm (22 December 2021)

Flame_ said:



			We haven't seen the build up to the incident. When people endure being hounded, harassed, intimidated and provoked whilst trying to enjoy their leisure time, they must hold in a lot of justifiable hurt and anger. Of course it appears that she "lost it" quickly and over nothing when one frustration got too much. That's what happens, it's a strategy of trouble-causers.
		
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And if there was provocation,  then  provocation is a partial defence in law. It doesn't stop a conviction but it does lower the sentence.


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## maggiestar (22 December 2021)

scats said:



			I swear like a trouper and can be very direct.  But the second I walked into the classroom I could switch that off no problem and be endlessly patient, avoid confrontation and never once let my language slip.  Then I would walk into the staff room with my friends and go back to my default mode.  I thought it was quite a normal thing to be able to do but apparently not.
		
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Oh, I swear like a Fishwife in my downtime! Professional face is switched on for work. I have to say though if I was an employer and I had to choose between the person who beats their horse for absolutely no reason in a fit of temper and someone with a milder more controlled nature I know who I would choose.


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## Sandstone1 (23 December 2021)

Roasted Chestnuts said:



			yeah because im whipping up millions of
People to find out his address and where he is and working right now and sending people there 🙄 lucky if I have ten followers on twitter. Then again I couldn’t tell you my log in so I think it would be rather hard for me to start a personal witch hunt 🙄
		
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But surely, the principle is the same?   Just because you are not reaching the same amount of people as CP you are still dong what you are blaming CP of doing. Just in a smaller way.


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## Sandstone1 (23 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			And if there was provocation,  then  provocation is a partial defence in law. It doesn't stop a conviction but it does lower the sentence.
		
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Bet the pony she beat round the head and kicked in the guts will feel a whole lot better because she had " provocation" from the sabs sat in their car watchiing.....


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## blitznbobs (23 December 2021)

I think if i remember rightly from my law degree the provocation defense is only applicable in murder cases …


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## skinnydipper (23 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			If this case was taken to court I think it is very likely that her defence would show video of professionals and Olympic athletes beating horses with whips. It's likely she would be found not guilty,
		
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WOW.  Is that how it works?


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## Tiddlypom (23 December 2021)

Of course many people have their 'work persona' and their 'downtime persona', and they adjust their conduct and language accordingly between the two.

But I still wouldn't want someone who has been shown to lose it like that with an innocent animal to be in charge of my primary school child. I would not trust her temper not to boil over in the classroom.

That's not saying that she doesn't always behave completely correctly and professionally at work, but it's that I would not be able to trust her to.


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## Birker2020 (23 December 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			WOW.  Is that how it works?
		
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I can’t believe some of these comments.
Sorry I can't find YCBM's reply which you responded to stating the above but just for the record the person who has been sacked would not go to court.  If she wants to appeal it wouldn’t involve court proceedings.

Even if it did what Olympic riders or anyone else does or does not do with their horses has absolutely no bearing on the situation whatsoever.

For the umpteenth time, she is in a *position of trust.*  That means she has to uphold certain behaviour and her behaviour, either in or out of the workplace, should not compromise their position within the work setting or bring the school or trust into disrepute.

Where there is a transference of risk, i.e. if she could hit animals she could potentially lose her rag and hit children then the hearing would discuss at length her suitability to continue her role.


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## Birker2020 (23 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			I'm sorry but no LADO has ever watched a video of someone hitting or kicking a horse and decided that it is a Safeguarding Children issue.
		
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Of course its a safeguarding issue. Granted not as serious as the usual stuff going to a LADO like physical, sexual or emotional abuse.  But still a safeguarding issue.

Where there is a *transference of risk*, i.e. if she could hit animals she could potentially lose her rag and hit children then the hearing would discuss at length her suitability to continue her role.  If she can lose her temper like that then she is not suitable to be working in the classroom environment.

We encountered a couple of hundred plus cases whilst I worked for the LA and transference of risk was fairly common.


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## ycbm (23 December 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			WOW.  Is that how it works?
		
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I  believe that a good defence would seek to show that hitting horses was a normal daily legal occurrence, but I don't think this will come to court because I don't think what she did will pass the CPS threshold.
.


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## PapaverFollis (23 December 2021)

Hitting a horse is different from hitting a child, especially someone else's child.  In terms of the strength of social taboo against it.  Just because someone's temper can break though the former, lighter, taboo does not mean that it will also break through the very, very strong latter taboo.  It really does not.

We've nearly all slapped a horse on the shoulder or neck with an open hand for biting us or kicking out at one point or another I'm sure... in a reactive way, does that mean we would all open hand slap a child that wasn't ours in the same reactive way? No! Of course it doesn't. The taboo against doing that is far too strong!


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## ycbm (23 December 2021)

blitznbobs said:



			I think if i remember rightly from my law degree the provocation defense is only applicable in murder cases …
		
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Thats not correct, sorry.  The Sentencing Guidelines are available online if anyone wants to read them.  It's used often in Magistrates Courts to try to reduce the sentence for minor assaults. 
.


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## ycbm (23 December 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			Bet the pony she beat round the head and kicked in the guts will feel a whole lot better because she had " provocation" from the sabs sat in their car watchiing.....
		
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I'm not sure why you've quoted me as if you're replying to me,  nobody says what she did was acceptable.

Hunt sabs do a hell of a lot more than sit in their cars,  by the way.  It was only the one filming who was sat in a car.  I support their aims but their methods are often very suspect.  
.


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## palo1 (23 December 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			But surely, the principle is the same?   Just because you are not reaching the same amount of people as CP you are still dong what you are blaming CP of doing. Just in a smaller way.
		
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No. it's not the same.  One of the absolute key factors is the very public and significant platform that CP has used to encourage a group of known activists/extremists that have form for harassment and abuse to an extreme level.  Ordinary people like posters on here do NOT have a platform, nor, hopefully the ability or will to influence a group of extremists to take direct action against an individual.


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## palo1 (23 December 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			Bet the pony she beat round the head and kicked in the guts will feel a whole lot better because she had " provocation" from the sabs sat in their car watchiing.....
		
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The pony may be facing a very uncertain future though and someone else may end up slapping the pony and kicking it.  But that is likely to happen in private so no one will know.  Perhaps if the pony has to be sold or rehomed, the sabs will kindly purchase it and 'rescue' it...


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## Birker2020 (23 December 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			We've nearly all slapped a horse on the shoulder or neck with an open hand for biting us or kicking out at one point or another I'm sure... in a reactive way, does that mean we would all open hand slap a child that wasn't ours in the same reactive way? No! Of course it doesn't. The taboo against doing that is far too strong!
		
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No of course it doesn't automatically mean it will happen and she will hit a child or even lose her rag with one.  But whenever there is an element of risk with someone in a position of trust, however slight, that level of risk *has *to be assessed.  It has been assessed and for whatever reasons (that we are not party to) she has been sacked.  The decision wasn't to give her additional training which would make people wonder that there may/may not have been previous issues/allegations that has led to this decision so when it may seem harsh to some people, those that are party to the information they have, may be completely justified in reaching their decision.

This is the reality no matter how much you say otherwise I'm afraid.  The safety of children always comes first.


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## eahotson (23 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Of course its a safeguarding issue. Granted not as serious as the usual stuff going to a LADO like physical, sexual or emotional abuse.  But still a safeguarding issue.

Where there is a *transference of risk*, i.e. if she could hit animals she could potentially lose her rag and hit children then the hearing would discuss at length her suitability to continue her role.  If she can lose her temper like that then she is not suitable to be working in the classroom environment.

We encountered a couple of hundred plus cases whilst I worked for the LA and transference of risk was fairly common.
		
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Before I sacked someone for something like that I would like to know if she had ever a] Hit a child at the school or b] threatened to hit a child at the school.Any of us could potentially hit a child.Are you going to ban all adults from the classroom? All of us can and do, regretably loose our temper from time to time.I do not like what this woman did, no one does but the punishment MUST be proportionate.The people she did bring into disrepute was the hunt.


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## ester (23 December 2021)

How do you know it's been assessed?


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## eahotson (23 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			No of course it doesn't automatically mean it will happen.  But whenever there is an element of risk with someone in a position of trust that level of risk *has *to be assessed.  It has been assessed and for whatever reasons (that we are not party to) she has been sacked.  There may/may not have been previous issues as I keep saying that has led to this decision so when it may seem harsh to some people, those that are party to the information they have, may be completely justified in reaching their decision.

This is the reality no matter how much you say otherwise I'm afraid.  The safety of children always comes first.
		
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Maybe or maybe they are just craven but people do have the right to challenge things if they feel that there is an injustice being done. I doubt this poor woman will ever want to return to a classroom again.


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## Rowreach (23 December 2021)

palo1 said:



			No. it's not the same.  One of the absolute key factors is the very public and significant platform that CP has used to encourage a group of known activists/extremists that have form for harassment and abuse to an extreme level.  Ordinary people like posters on here do NOT have a platform, nor, hopefully the ability or will to influence a group of extremists to take direct action against an individual.
		
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He did it again yesterday, publishing a cctv image of a person the police are looking for in connection to the damage at his house.

Now potentially this is the offender, but potentially it is not, and yet he’s inspired a furore among the thousands of followers he has all over his SM.

This could be you one day, going about your business one minute, and finding yourself as an internet target the next, with life changing consequences for you and your family.


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## Birker2020 (23 December 2021)

ester said:



			How do you know it's been assessed?
		
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Because the school and their partners would have assessed the risk by holding a panel meeting to discuss the risks and assess her suitability. A professional conduct panel assess the risks and determine the outcome because it would have met the threshold.


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## Pearlsasinger (23 December 2021)

maggiestar said:



			Oh, I swear like a Fishwife in my downtime! Professional face is switched on for work. I have to say though if I was an employer and I had to choose between the person who beats their horse for absolutely no reason in a fit of temper and someone with a milder more controlled nature I know who I would choose.
		
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Which would be fine if you actuallyhad 2 people to choose from,as when you are interviewing for a post.  However most schools are struggling tofind enoughstaff to keep every class open atm.  And that isn't jsut because of Covid, recruitment and retention were in difficulty before the virus struck.


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## ycbm (23 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Because the school and their partners would have assessed the risk by holding a panel meeting to discuss the risks and assess her suitability. A professional conduct panel assess the risks and determine the outcome because it would have met the threshold.
		
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If you knew as much about unfair dismissal tribunals as you think you do about this issue,  you would know that procedures which are meant to happen are not always carried out by every employer. 

You don't  know what the school did or did not do, except that they sacked her. 
.


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## Pearlsasinger (23 December 2021)

ester said:



			How do you know it's been assessed?
		
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She doesn't!  This poster has a very limited experience of taking notes in a few meetings in one local authority. They don't all work inthe same way.   If the teacher has indeed beensacked she will very likely get a successful ET outcome but,of course, she may have decided towalk away fromthe school, the press release doesn't make it clear.   Should she wish to continue to teach, there is plenty of supply work available.


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## Birker2020 (23 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			If you knew as much about unfair dismissal tribunals as you think you do about this issue,  you would know that procedures which are meant to happen are not always carried out by every employer.

You don't  know what the school did or did not do, except that they sacked her.
.
		
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I don't know anything about unfair dismissal tribunals and I HAVE NEVER IN ANY OF MY REPLIES said i did so not sure why you think that. As I've stated numerous times i probably minuted over 200 position of trust meetings. Very different.


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## Birker2020 (23 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			She doesn't!  This poster has a very limited experience of taking notes in a few meetings in one local authority. They don't all work inthe same way.   If the teacher has indeed beensacked she will very likely get a successful ET outcome but,of course, she may have decided towalk away fromthe school, the press release doesn't make it clear.   Should she wish to continue to teach, there is plenty of supply work available.
		
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Of course the transference of risk has been assessed. you say i have very limited experience. I don't. A few meeting not correct. Over 200 that i personally convened and minute took, typed up an action plan (an agreed course of actions) which was sent out within 48hrs with minutes that i typed up from my notes during the meeting going out within a SLA timescale.

I only ever write what i know about from my experience, which by the way wasn't a 'few meetings'. I worked for almost 2 yrs (2 weeks shy) and only left as my position came up for permanancy and was filled by a perm member of staff and i was agency.  Why the constant need to discredit everything I say?

On my supervisors request i was asked to show this member of staff how i did my job. So i took her under my wing for weeks before she took my job off me despite reassurance from my boss this wouldn't happen and was not the intention. I then worked in another team but hated it so left.

I would never 'make up' stuff and find your tone very unkind.

Your tone is also very patronising tbh.
I'm withdrawing from this thread now as its obvious my point of view will not be considered and it is just giving certain individuals free rein to criticise me. I couldn't care less if you don't believe what i am saying but find it most strange that you would think i would make something up or try to glorify my skills, neither of which i have tried to do.


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## PapaverFollis (23 December 2021)

You have no idea what the school's risk assessment was.  None.

All we know is that she was sacked or she left.  We do NOT  know the reason for her sacking/leaving.  It may have had nothing to do with any potential risk and everything to do with reputation.  We do not know.


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## milliepops (23 December 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			You have no idea what the school's risk assessment was.  None.

All we know is that she was sacked or she left.  We do NOT  know the reason for her sacking/leaving.  It may have had nothing to do with any potential risk and everything to do with reputation.  We do not know.
		
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PF you need to post your CV to accompany this assertion.


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## Red-1 (23 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			This would have involved a multi agency Position of Trust meeting I would have thought as the perpetrator is in a position of trust with children.

The fact that she has allegedly abused an animal would have bearing on her job because she would be thought of as possible danger to children.
		
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Birker2020 said:



			Exactly.  And someone somewhere thought that there was a likely inference that this could be passed on due to her role as teacher and quite rightly reported her actions.
		
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Birker2020 said:



			I'm afraid you are missing the point.  Read reply 7.  Bad riding, fat horses etc do not have the potential and it the word is 'potential' to cause harm to children or young people.  The risk was assessed.  The decision made.  End of.
		
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Birker2020 said:



			No of course it doesn't automatically mean it will happen and she will hit a child or even lose her rag with one.  But whenever there is an element of risk with someone in a position of trust, however slight, that level of risk *has *to be assessed.  It has been assessed and for whatever reasons (that we are not party to) she has been sacked.  The decision wasn't to give her additional training which would make people wonder that there may/may not have been previous issues/allegations that has led to this decision so when it may seem harsh to some people, those that are party to the information they have, may be completely justified in reaching their decision.

This is the reality no matter how much you say otherwise I'm afraid.  The safety of children always comes first.
		
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Birker2020 said:



			Because the school and their partners would have assessed the risk by holding a panel meeting to discuss the risks and assess her suitability. A professional conduct panel assess the risks and determine the outcome because it would have met the threshold.
		
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Birker2020 said:



			Of course the transference of risk has been assessed. you say i have very limited experience. I don't. A few meeting not correct. Over 200 that i personally convened and minute took, typed up an action plan (an agreed course of actions) which was sent out within 48hrs with minutes that i typed up from my notes during the meeting going out within a SLA timescale.

I only ever write what i know about from my experience, which by the way wasn't a 'few meetings'. I worked for almost 2 yrs (2 weeks shy) and only left as my position came up for permanancy and was filled by a perm member of staff and i was agency.

On my supervisors request i was asked to show this member of staff how i did my job. So i took her under my wing for weeks before she took my job off me despite reassurance from my boss this wouldn't happen and was not the intention. I then worked in another team but hated it so left.

I would never 'make up' stuff and find your tone very unkind.

Your tone is also very patronising tbh.
I'm withdrawing from this thread now as its obvious my point of view will not be considered and it is just giving certain individuals free rein to criticise me. I couldn't care less if you don't believe what i am saying but find it most strange that you would think i would make something up or try to glorify my skills, neither of which i have.
		
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Gosh, I have stood by and not commented whilst you have pontificated, but I have to say something.

You are saying that she has been assessed as a potential risk against children. I believe that is libel.

It may be that it is simply that the school has decided that she has brought disrepute onto the school. They may not believe she is any risk to children whatsoever.

That is a huge leap, and I simply believe you are wrong to tell people that you have specialist experience in this area, and that she will have been deemed to be a risk to children.

All this and then you accuse PAS of being patronising?

I will report your comment, as I do believe that you, by stating that she has found to be a risk to children, as a fact, is lible.


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## Birker2020 (23 December 2021)

Red-1 said:



			Gosh, I have stood by and not commented whilst you have pontificated, but I have to say something.

You are saying that she has been assessed as a potential risk against children. I believe that is libel.

It may be that it is simply that the school has decided that she has brought disrepute onto the school. They may not believe she is any risk to children whatsoever.

That is a huge leap, and I simply believe you are wrong to tell people that you have specialist experience in this area, and that she will have been deemed to be a risk to children.
		
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I did not say she had been assessed as to transference of risk as how the he** would i know? For goidness sake. But this is what usually happens in situations like this. Another one attempting to put words in my mouth or twist what i say.

Libel?? I think not. In the public realm. Me just explaining what happens.

Go make trouble for someone else. This is why I'm withdrawing from this thread as it is turning nasty and vindictive.


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## Pearlsasinger (23 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Of course the transference of risk has been assessed. you say i have very limited experience. I don't. A few meeting not correct. Over 200 that i personally convened and minute took, typed up an action plan (an agreed course of actions) which was sent out within 48hrs with minutes that i typed up from my notes during the meeting going out within a SLA timescale.

I only ever write what i know about from my experience, which by the way wasn't a 'few meetings'. I worked for almost 2 yrs (2 weeks shy) and only left as my position came up for permanancy and was filled by a perm member of staff and i was agency.

On my supervisors request i was asked to show this member of staff how i did my job. So i took her under my wing for weeks before she took my job off me despite reassurance from my boss this wouldn't happen and was not the intention. I then worked in another team but hated it so left.

I would never 'make up' stuff and find your tone very unkind.

Your tone is also very patronising tbh.
I'm withdrawing from this thread now as its obvious my point of view will not be considered and it is just giving certain individuals free rein to criticise me. I couldn't care less if you don't believe what i am saying but find it most strange that you would think i would make something up or try to glorify my skills, neither of which i have tried to do.
		
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Are you seriously expecting us to believe that in 2 years a Local Authority needed to decide the employment future of at least 200 employees because of Safeguarding issues?  I have no doubt that you took notes at 200 meetings but there would be a lot of questions to be asked if one area really had so many safeguarding issues that weren't picked up before the situation needed  intervention from the LADO.
However when I see how you misinterpreted ycbm's post 443 which you replied to, I can understand how you misconstrued your work and why it wasn't made a permanent position.


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## Birker2020 (23 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			Are you seriously expecting us to believe that in 2 years a Local Authority needed to decide the employment future of at least 200 employees because of Safeguarding issues?  I have no doubt that you took notes at 200 meetings but there would be a lot of questions to be asked if one area really had so many safeguarding issues that weren't picked up before the situation needed  intervention from the LADO.
However when I see how you misinterpreted ycbm's post 443 which you replied to, I can understand how you misconstrued your work and why it wasn't made a permanent position.
		
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Unkind, totally incorrect in your interpretation of everything i said, spiteful and totally unnecessary as is usually the case with you. 🙄 but in respect of your unkind statement, why let truth get in the way of a good story?


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## Sossigpoker (23 December 2021)

ihatework said:



			On the face of it, despite this ladies awful behaviour, the punishment does seem too extreme for the crime. I however understand how this has played out and why the school didn’t feel they had any other option.

What none of us know however is this ladies disciplinary history or her general behaviour both at work and during the investigation. If that is squeaky clean then I’d lean towards it being a harsh punishment - but if she has ‘form’ it could be entirely appropriate?
		
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In a previous thread about her , someone said they knew her and the family and apparently they are no strangers to this kind of behaviour.


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## Birker2020 (23 December 2021)

Sossigpoker said:



			In a previous thread about her , someone said they knew her and the family and apparently they are no strangers to this kind of behaviour.
		
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Be careful or Red 1 might threaten you with libel too 🤣🤣


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## YorksG (23 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			I did not say she had been assessed as to transference of risk as how the he** would i know? For goidness sake. But this is what usually happens in situations like this. Another one attempting to put words in my mouth or twist what i say.

Libel?? I think not. In the public realm. Me just explaining what happens.

Go make trouble for someone else. This is why I'm withdrawing from this thread as it is turning nasty and vindictive.
		
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Again, this is *not* about you, there are people posting on this thread who have a lot more experience, than taking minutes, of all sorts of safeguarding, employment and legal matters.  I recall a senior manager explaining to a minute taker that she was not in a position to comment, she was there to take minutes, in a safeguarding meeting.


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## ester (23 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Because the school and their partners would have assessed the risk by holding a panel meeting to discuss the risks and assess her suitability. A professional conduct panel assess the risks and determine the outcome because it would have met the threshold.
		
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There is no evidence of this. You are assuming it happened.

(edit bit late, everyone else said it first!)


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## Red-1 (23 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			I did not say she had been assessed as to transference of risk as how the he** would i know? For goidness sake. But this is what usually happens in situations like this. Another one attempting to put words in my mouth or twist what i say.
.......
		
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Birker2020 said:



			Of course the transference of risk has been assessed. you say i have very limited experience. I don't. A few meeting not correct. Over 200 that i personally convened and minute took, typed up an action plan (an agreed course of actions) which was sent out within 48hrs with minutes that i typed up from my notes during the meeting going out within a SLA timescale.

.
		
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amongst other quotes...


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## Upthecreek (23 December 2021)

I cannot see that dismissal took place for any reason other than her behaviour did not meet the standards expected of a primary school teacher (from the point of view of setting a good example to children) and was deemed to be damaging to the reputation of the school. This is a perfectly adequate reason for a school to dismiss a teacher and with the incident being filmed there is no doubt that it happened. I would be surprised if safeguarding of children was even considered.

Even with the best legal representation I think it would be difficult to argue against, unless the disciplinary process has not been correctly followed or her contract of employment does not include a clause about bringing the reputation of the school into disrepute.


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## tristar (23 December 2021)

FestiveG said:



			Again, this is *not* about you, there are people posting on this thread who have a lot more experience, than taking minutes, of all sorts of safeguarding, employment and legal matters.  I recall a senior manager explaining to a minute taker that she was not in a position to comment, she was there to take minutes, in a safeguarding meeting.
		
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probably the same type  of senior manager that advised or condoned the closing of the case of star, who later died.

attitudes like that are why the country is in the mess it is.

if i was in that position i would be very interested in all opinions, contributions, and not use it as tool to put people down, cos one day the senior manager might be the one in danger of being hung out to dry, or should that be hang ed  he he he,  oh sorry ho ho ho


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## Sossigpoker (23 December 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Be careful or Red 1 might threaten you with libel too 🤣🤣
		
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Is Red1 her ?? 🤣


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## Sossigpoker (23 December 2021)

I just don't understand the need for people to argue over why she was sacked or if it was right or not. Clearly the school trust don't see her with her behavior a good fit for their values. Plus , for all we know,  they may have had complaints from parents.  No amount of arguing over it will reveal the facts.


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## Red-1 (23 December 2021)

Sossigpoker said:



			Is Red1 her ?? 🤣
		
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No, fortunately.


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## View (23 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			This could be you one day, going about your business one minute, and finding yourself as an internet target the next, with life changing consequences for you and your family.
		
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I have watched this thread until now, saying nothing but utterly shocked at some of the wild assumptions that have been made.

I have woken up one morning to find false, very nasty and damaging comments made about my involvement in a work related matter posted all over a Facebook group.

Our children were old enough to understand what was going on and were badly affected at what was written about me. My employer was a public sector organisation and was not able to use their lawyers to assist me.

From time to time, the false allegations are still thrown in my face by people that are looking for a reason to discredit me.

Due to the nature of the internet I doubt that this episode will ever disappear completely.

I hope this never happens to any of you.


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## Birker2020 (23 December 2021)

FestiveG said:



			Again, this is *not* about you, there are people posting on this thread who have a lot more experience, than taking minutes, of all sorts of safeguarding, employment and legal matters.  I recall a senior manager explaining to a minute taker that she was not in a position to comment, she was there to take minutes, in a safeguarding meeting.
		
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 deleted


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## honetpot (23 December 2021)

tristar said:



			probably the same type  of senior manager that advised or condoned the closing of the case of star, who later died.

attitudes like that are why the country is in the mess it is.

if i was in that position i would be very interested in all opinions, contributions, and not use it as tool to put people down, cos one day the senior manager might be the one in danger of being hung out to dry, or should that be hang ed  he he he,  oh sorry ho ho ho
		
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 I think asking  someone's opinion in the room who has little experience, is not going to make a judgement that will stand up in an employment tribunal. There is a process that has to be followed so that everyone should be treated fairly. When the process is not used, it means that the employer could end up having to pay compensation.
  I think very often people do not read their contract of employment, and any other documents that go with it, sometimes even the people that hand them out. The mistakes usually happen when manager think they can do something, and actually they are not even following their own workplace guidelines.
   Often an NDA is signed and people leave, it's just a lot quicker, you make sure you get money and a reference as part of the terms.


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## eahotson (23 December 2021)

Sossigpoker said:



			In a previous thread about her , someone said they knew her and the family and apparently they are no strangers to this kind .Is there any actual proof?
		
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## Rowreach (23 December 2021)

Sossigpoker said:



			In a previous thread about her , someone said they knew her and the family and apparently they are no strangers to this kind of behaviour.
		
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This again? Just don’t.


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## eahotson (23 December 2021)

The thing that troubles me about all of this is the appearance at least,of mob rule.I think of that poor teacher in a school in the north who showed a picture of Mohammed to a largely muslim class.It was part of a lesson that he had given before with no problem.
The next thing is the baying mob at the school gates, death threats etc.The school apologized WHY? The man had done nothing wrong.He and his family had to go into hiding for their own safety and I don't think he has ever been able to return to that school.
I really don't know much about this woman.I would say what she was filmed doing was unpleasant but I wouldn't call it cruel.There may,of course,be other issues with her but the death threats and the baying mob at the gate make you think it may just as easily be mob rule.


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## PapaverFollis (23 December 2021)

Institutional cowardice in the face of any kind of mob.  That's the heart and soul of cancel culture.


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## blitznbobs (23 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Thats not correct, sorry.  The Sentencing Guidelines are available online if anyone wants to read them.  It's used often in Magistrates Courts to try to reduce the sentence for minor assaults.
.
		
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I remember the lecture now... It is only a (partial) DEFENSE in murder trials thus changing the crime from murder to manslaughter but can be a sentence mitigation if the provocation is 'Substantially more than one would expect'... I guess I might be jaded but I always expect the antis to do lots of provoking so that would be up to the judge to decide.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (23 December 2021)

I'm missing a lot of posts on here, is HSB/AC/aka Birker posting heavily? 
I only have 2 forum users blocked for being prize idiots and 1 hasn't been on here in a long time.
Just asking.....


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## HanniRT (23 December 2021)

The Xmas Furry said:



			I'm missing a lot of posts on here, is HSB/AC/aka Birker posting heavily?
I only have 2 forum users blocked for being prize idiots and 1 hasn't been on here in a long time.
Just asking.....
		
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Yes! I see your point too!


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## Leah3horses (23 December 2021)

There is absolutely no justification for violence against any other beings...to read so many don't understand even basic equine behaviour and repeat scientifically disproven, ignorant old wives tales to try to justify violence against horses is repugnant. Every incident where people try to justify their violence against horses is always the result of negligent training and exposure to stressful equine situations, and forcing horses well over their emotional threshold, of which most owners are sadly completely ignorant.  I have never, ever hit a horse or any animal, 45 years of experience so far, and never will. And I deal with very dangerous situations involving all species of animals, including big cats, giraffes, rhino, in my work as a veterinary professional. The thought of using violence in the situations I've had to deal with, for example, horses in complete fight or flight panic due to extreme terror and pain, who have broken their own legs to try to escape the source of complete terror, and are an extreme threat to the lives of myself and fellow  veterinary professionals  , is completely , absolutely unjustified. Imagine a vet using violence against a terrified and or  dangerous horse they've come to professionally assess. We do not do it, even though we are at extreme risk of injury from the distressed animal,or worse, because we know better.  Nobody should resort to violence against horses, or any animal whatsoever and I am deeply ashamed at how so many horse people think, as usual. Threads like these prove that so many horse people really are a separate breed to rational, knowledgeable, aware, humane, empathetic people. Know better. Do better. When you run out of patience with horses, you have to find some more. If your first, or any, reaction is to lash out in violence, you need to set aside your ego, as no animal behaves to personally aggrieve you, you're not that important.... educate yourself in becoming a better, much more rational , more peaceful person, for the sake of any poor animal who has the misfortune to be in your 'care' , for other more enlightened ,humane people who do not want to witness animal abuse, and hitting is abuse as it is completely contradictory, unecessary and unethical . Every person like this now ex teacher, should rightly be made an example of, as there is absolutely no excuse for ever using violence against a horse. If you don't want exposure as an animal abuser, don't abuse animals, it's very simple. Ethics and integrity , how you behave when you think nobody is watching, say so much about a person's character.  Finally , if you develop an ethical conscience and behave accordingly, you will be much happier with yourself. You just don't realise it yet. 
I will not be responding to anyone attempting to justify any form of violence towards any animal. There is none. Educate yourself if these words outrage your ego.


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## Sandstone1 (23 December 2021)

palo1 said:



			The pony may be facing a very uncertain future though and someone else may end up slapping the pony and kicking it.  But that is likely to happen in private so no one will know.  Perhaps if the pony has to be sold or rehomed, the sabs will kindly purchase it and 'rescue' it...
		
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That must be the most weird answer I have ever heard!   So a pony may get sold it may get hit but not seen because the sabs wont be there to film it.  Are you not complaining about sabs filming?   Very very weird logic...


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## piebaldproblems (23 December 2021)

Leah3horses said:



			Threads like these prove that so many horse people really are a separate breed to rational, knowledgeable, aware, humane, empathetic people.
		
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I think this kind of behaviour towards horses is so normalised by horse communities that people are kinda indoctrinated from a young age into hitting a horse being a solution. Maybe there's also a mental block that if you were to acknowledge that it's bad you'd then have to feel the guilt for having done what you've done.


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## Sandstone1 (23 December 2021)

eahotson said:



			The thing that troubles me about all of this is the appearance at least,of mob rule.I think of that poor teacher in a school in the north who showed a picture of Mohammed to a largely muslim class.It was part of a lesson that he had given before with no problem.
The next thing is the baying mob at the school gates, death threats etc.The school apologized WHY? The man had done nothing wrong.He and his family had to go into hiding for their own safety and I don't think he has ever been able to return to that school.
I really don't know much about this woman.I would say what she was filmed doing was unpleasant but I wouldn't call it cruel.There may,of course,be other issues with her but the death threats and the baying mob at the gate make you think it may just as easily be mob rule.
		
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I am sorry but you wouldnt call hitting a horse road the head and kicking it in the guts cruel???   What do you call cruel then?


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## ycbm (23 December 2021)

I have not seen a single person on this thread say that her behaviour was anything but wrong,


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## Gallop_Away (23 December 2021)

🤷‍♀️ I brought my knee up into a particularly rude and bargy youngster's chest just the other night. It was attempting to barg it's way out of the (closed) gate behind me and had me pinned against the gate and was trying to walk over me.
Shouting at it and pushing it back with my hands wasn't working so a prompt knee in the chest soon shifted it back. 
Was it particularly pleasant.....no. would I do it again if the situation called for it......without hesitation. Horses do far worse to each other.
This is a storm in a teacup swirled up by sabs to suit their own agenda. I'm not condoning what the woman did but people make mistakes. The way herself and her family have been persecuted over this is disgusting. I hope this doesn't turn into another Caroline Flack situation...... 
I hope she takes it all the way to an employment tribunal.


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## Birker2020 (23 December 2021)

The Xmas Furry said:



			I'm missing a lot of posts on here, is HSB/AC/aka Birker posting heavily?
.
		
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No more than anyone else dear 
And I wouldn't have said heavily, just responding to comments like everyone else.  But apparently when I do I get labelled as 'wanting to make it all about me'. Hilarious.


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## HanniRT (23 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			I have not seen a single person on this thread say that her behaviour was anything but wrong,
		
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Unfortunately that doesn't fit the narrative of some people. And that quite a lot of us are saying that her punishment is disproportionate to her actions.


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## maggiestar (23 December 2021)

I don't blame the school for dismissing her but nobody comes out of it smelling of roses. Neither the hunt sabs (why were they filming her children loading up in the first place?) nor the social media trolls who scented blood and hounded her to lose her job. They all behaved badly. 
I hope the lady reflects on how this happened and keeps her temper in check around animals from now on. As for the faceless mob? Well, they'll never put their pitchforks down. We're all hunters in a way, I suppose


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## tristar (23 December 2021)

honetpot said:



			I think asking  someone's opinion in the room who has little experience, is not going to make a judgement that will stand up in an employment tribunal. There is a process that has to be followed so that everyone should be treated fairly. When the process is not used, it means that the employer could end up having to pay compensation.
  I think very often people do not read their contract of employment, and any other documents that go with it, sometimes even the people that hand them out. The mistakes usually happen when manager think they can do something, and actually they are not even following their own workplace guidelines.
   Often an NDA is signed and people leave, it's just a lot quicker, you make sure you get money and a reference as part of the terms.
		
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yes i understand that, however so many failures or bad decisions


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## eahotson (23 December 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			Institutional cowardice in the face of any kind of mob.  That's the heart and soul of cancel culture.
		
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Oh so true.


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## PapaverFollis (23 December 2021)

Wouldn't it be lovely if we were all just perfect and the inner chimp never got the upper (slappy) hand?

Shame we're human isn't it? Nasty, smelly imperfect things.  Yuck.


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## eahotson (23 December 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			I am sorry but you wouldnt call hitting a horse road the head and kicking it in the guts cruel???   What do you call cruel then?
		
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Starving a horse.Not getting necessary professionals such as vet farrier where necessary.Beating a horse repeatedly with an instrument.Keeping a horse in a stable 24 hours a day unless under vetinary advice.I am sure I can think of others including the real beatings I have seen given to horses at shows.The RSPCA could no doubt give you plenty of other examples.


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## eahotson (23 December 2021)

In a 


Leah3horses said:



			There is absolutely no justification for violence against any other beings...to read so many don't understand even basic equine behaviour and repeat scientifically disproven, ignorant old wives tales to try to justify violence against horses is repugnant. Every incident where people try to justify their violence against horses is always the result of negligent training and exposure to stressful equine situations, and forcing horses well over their emotional threshold, of which most owners are sadly completely ignorant.  I have never, ever hit a horse or any animal, 45 years of experience so far, and never will. And I deal with very dangerous situations involving all species of animals, including big cats, giraffes, rhino, in my work as a veterinary professional. The thought of using violence in the situations I've had to deal with, for example, horses in complete fight or flight panic due to extreme terror and pain, who have broken their own legs to try to escape the source of complete terror, and are an extreme threat to the lives of myself and fellow  veterinary professionals  , is completely , absolutely unjustified. Imagine a vet using violence against a terrified and or  dangerous horse they've come to professionally assess. We do not do it, even though we are at extreme risk of injury from the distressed animal,or worse, because we know better.  Nobody should resort to violence against horses, or any animal whatsoever and I am deeply ashamed at how so many horse people think, as usual. Threads like these prove that so many horse people really are a separate breed to rational, knowledgeable, aware, humane, empathetic people. Know better. Do better. When you run out of patience with horses, you have to find some more. If your first, or any, reaction is to lash out in violence, you need to set aside your ego, as no animal behaves to personally aggrieve you, you're not that important.... educate yourself in becoming a better, much more rational , more peaceful person, for the sake of any poor animal who has the misfortune to be in your 'care' , for other more enlightened ,humane people who do not want to witness animal abuse, and hitting is abuse as it is completely contradictory, unecessary and unethical . Every person like this now ex teacher, should rightly be made an example of, as there is absolutely no excuse for ever using violence against a horse. If you don't want exposure as an animal abuser, don't abuse animals, it's very simple. Ethics and integrity , how you behave when you think nobody is watching, say so much about a person's character.  Finally , if you develop an ethical conscience and behave accordingly, you will be much happier with yourself. You just don't realise it yet.
I will not be responding to anyone attempting to justify any form of violence towards any animal. There is none. Educate yourself if these words outrage your ego.
		
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In a perfect world we would all behave perfectly every moment of our lives.Sadly we are not all perfect.


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## eahotson (23 December 2021)

piebaldproblems said:



			I think this kind of behaviour towards horses is so normalised by horse communities that people are kinda indoctrinated from a young age into hitting a horse being a solution. Maybe there's also a mental block that if you were to acknowledge that it's bad you'd then have to feel the guilt for having done what you've done.
		
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There is an element of truth to that but some of the real beatings I have seen have been by well known people at large shows.You do see less of it these days because of more phones and YouTube.However giving a  horse a slap or even a quick kick is not,in the great scheme of things cruelty.


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## SatansLittleHelper (23 December 2021)

This whole thing makes me very uncomfortable on a number of levels. 
People saying that they have seen worse in the show ring etc, how does that make this ok..?? If you saw this sort of thing in a show ring or similar would you not report it to show secretarial staff..?? Yes I have slapped a horse that has done something stupid or dangerous, no I have never done what this woman did. Ever.
Should she have lost her job..?? I don't know to be fair. However, if she was the teaching my child I would, personally,  be deeply unhappy to allow her to continue to do so. From the school's point of view she behaved in an extremely inappropriate manner whilst engaging in a largely illegal activity (the hunt she was with are well known to behave illegally by all accounts). Unprovoked aggression and law breaking do not reflect well on the school.


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## ycbm (23 December 2021)

. 


SatansLittleHelper said:



			people saying that they have seen worse in the show ring etc, how does that make this ok..??
		
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Nobody has said it does. That has only been mentioned in the context of proportionality of the punishment.
.


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## Tiddlypom (23 December 2021)

A technicality alert.

A member of the field who knowingly follows an illegally fox hunting pack is not committing an offence. Only the hunt officials can be charged with offences under the Hunting Act 2004. Members of the field, morally complicit though they may be, get off scot free.


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## ycbm (23 December 2021)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			whilst engaging in a largely illegal activity
		
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There is no evidence whatsoever that the hunt that day was not a legal trail hunt.  If there had been any,  then a prosecution of the huntsman/woman would be pending. And it would be them prosecuted, not  her.  It is not even illegal, ( though I consider it immoral) , to knowingly follow a fox hunt.  The only people committing a criminal offence are the people in charge of hunting the hounds. 
.


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## eahotson (23 December 2021)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			This whole thing makes me very uncomfortable on a number of levels.
People saying that they have seen worse in the show ring etc, how does that make this ok..?? If you saw this sort of thing in a show ring or similar would you not report it to show secretarial staff..?? Yes I have slapped a horse that has done something stupid or dangerous, no I have never done what this woman did. Ever.
Should she have lost her job..?? I don't know to be fair. However, if she was the teaching my child I would, personally,  be deeply unhappy to allow her to continue to do so. From the school's point of view she behaved in an extremely inappropriate manner whilst engaging in a largely illegal activity (the hunt she was with are well known to behave illegally by all accounts). Unprovoked aggression and law breaking do not reflect well on the school.
		
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Try reporting it?I did and it got me no where.I did not like what I saw but overall the horse looked to me to be well cared for and that is not true of so many.And again the "Hunt are known to behave illegally " with no proof".There are many ways to be cruel,genuinely cruel to horses sadly.


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## paddy555 (23 December 2021)

Red-1 said:



			Gosh, I have stood by and not commented whilst you have pontificated, but I have to say something.

You are saying that she has been assessed as a potential risk against children. I believe that is libel.

It may be that it is simply that the school has decided that she has brought disrepute onto the school. They may not believe she is any risk to children whatsoever.

That is a huge leap, and I simply believe you are wrong to tell people that you have specialist experience in this area, and that she will have been deemed to be a risk to children.

All this and then you accuse PAS of being patronising?

I will report your comment, as I do believe that you, by stating that she has found to be a risk to children, as a fact, is lible.
		
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I also haven't commented but I am totally amazed that people can write 17 pages on a subject that they know absolutely nothing about nor ever will ie should this teacher have been sacked. Unless they have access to all the official papers surrounding her employment  and cessation of it in some form they never will do. 

The other thing that amazes me even more is that HHO admins allow this. This is simply even more "trial by media" 
I am surprised that neither this lady nor any of her friends/associates are on here and have not made this known to her legal team. 

Birker I have found some of your comments on this thread particularly offensive. A while ago you said you would rather not post about your new horse when people asked what had gone wrong so soon with him because of the comments you would get. Yet you seem very happy to make comments about someone else who is not here to put their side of the story, 

What she did was extremely poor judgement and disgusting behaviour towards the horse. Unless she was successfully prosecuted for cruelty she should not have been sacked. We are very short of teachers and cannot afford to sack them for minor offences in their private lives.


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## eahotson (23 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			.


Nobody has said it does. That has only been mentioned in the context of proportionality of the punishment.
.
		
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You said it better than me.


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## Upthecreek (23 December 2021)

paddy555 said:



			I also haven't commented but I am totally amazed that people can write 17 pages on a subject that they know absolutely nothing about nor ever will ie should this teacher have been sacked. Unless they have access to all the official papers surrounding her employment  and cessation of it in some form they never will do.


What she did was extremely poor judgement and disgusting behaviour towards the horse. Unless she was successfully prosecuted for cruelty she should not have been sacked. We are very short of teachers and cannot afford to sack them for minor offences in their private lives.
		
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You are saying you are amazed that 17 pages have been written on a subject people know nothing about, but then said in your opinion she shouldn’t have been sacked? Presumably you don’t have access to all the official papers surrounding her employment and the disciplinary process? How can you say she should not have been sacked unless she was successfully prosecuted for cruelty? There are plenty of things people can do outside of work that can result in dismissal that are nothing to do with committing a crime and being successfully prosecuted for it.


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## Mrs. Jingle (23 December 2021)

paddy555 said:



			The other thing that amazes me even more is that HHO admins allow this. This is simply even more "trial by media"
I am surprised that neither this lady nor any of her friends/associates are on here and have not made this known to her legal team.
		
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This has occurred to me also, I would not be at all surprised if she and or her legal advisors are following this thread, and I will not be at all surprised to see that admin are forced to remove it by her legal advisors at some point of the next few days.

Or maybe she has been advised to allow it to run its course and then cherry pick those comments her lawyers feel worth pursuing. Obviously only surmising my own thoughts but very possible in this litigious society we now live in. 🤷‍♀️


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## paddy555 (23 December 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			You are saying you are amazed that 17 pages have been written on a subject people know nothing about, but then said in your opinion she shouldn’t have been sacked? Presumably you don’t have access to all the official papers surrounding her employment and the disciplinary process? How can you say she should not have been sacked unless she was successfully prosecuted for cruelty? There are plenty of things people can do outside of work that can result in dismissal that are nothing to do with committing a crime and being successfully prosecuted for it.
		
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there you go again, round and round in circles getting absolutely no where. Prosecute  her for cruelty or don't.


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## paddy555 (23 December 2021)

Mrs Jingle said:



			This has occurred to me also, I would not be at all surprised if she and or her legal advisors are following this thread, and I will not be at all surprised to see that admin are forced to remove it by her legal advisors at some point of the next few days.

Or maybe she has been advised to allow it to run its course and then cherry pick those comments her lawyers feel worth pursuing. Obviously only surmising my own thoughts but very possible in this litigious society we now live in. 🤷‍♀️
		
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no idea if you are correct but I would have thought to some extent HHO were running a risk letting this charade go on.


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## stormox (23 December 2021)

Has there been any public comment from the people involved themselves?


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## Upthecreek (23 December 2021)

paddy555 said:



			there you go again, round and round in circles getting absolutely no where. Prosecute  her for cruelty or don't.
		
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What?


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## Tiddlypom (23 December 2021)

stormox said:



			Has there been any public comment from the people involved themselves?
		
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There's been a short statement from her employers.

https://www.mowbrayeducation.org/news/?pid=0&nid=1&storyid=167


'Statement From Mowbray Education Trust

I can confirm that Sarah Moulds’ employment with the Trust has been terminated.  As a Trust we are committed to ensuring the best standard of education for all of our young people and we look forward to continuing this throughout the 2021/22 academic year and beyond.
Paul Maddox
Chief Operating Officer'


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## Sandstone1 (23 December 2021)

eahotson said:



			There is an element of truth to that but some of the real beatings I have seen have been by well known people at large shows.You do see less of it these days because of more phones and YouTube.However giving a  horse a slap or even a quick kick is not,in the great scheme of things cruelty.
		
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That is your opinion.


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## Pearlsasinger (23 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			There's been a short statement from her employers.

https://www.mowbrayeducation.org/news/?pid=0&nid=1&storyid=167


'Statement From Mowbray Education Trust

I can confirm that Sarah Moulds’ employment with the Trust has been terminated.  As a Trust we are committed to ensuring the best standard of education for all of our young people and we look forward to continuing this throughout the 2021/22 academic year and beyond.
Paul Maddox
Chief Operating Officer'
		
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It does not, of course, say terminated by whom.  SM may well have resigned.


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## PurBee (23 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			I'm sorry but no LADO has ever watched a video of someone hitting or kicking a horse and decided that it is a Safeguarding Children issue.
		
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Not even if children are present being made to witness the abuse to an animal?


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## Tiddlypom (23 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			It does not, of course, say terminated by whom.  SM may well have resigned.
		
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It's a rather curt statement, and reading that I'd be very surprised if she wasn't pushed.


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## Amymay (23 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			It's a rather curt statement, and reading that I'd be very surprised if she wasn't pushed.
		
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I suspect if she’d left of her own volition the statement would read quite differently.


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## paddy555 (23 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			It's a rather curt statement, and reading that I'd be very surprised if she wasn't pushed.
		
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trial by sm again. You have no idea nor does anyone else and whatever agreement was reached may well remain one  of life's mysteries. 

sticking to the facts,, not something most people wish to do, it says "terminated" with some waffle in the last sentence. 

I looked up "terminated " on google for you and this seems a reasonable definition. 


The term termination of employment refers to *the end of an employee's work with a company*. An employee may be terminated from a job of their own free will or following a decision made by the employer.


as far as this thread goes then that is now "decisions,  decisions" did she go as some would like or was she pushed as others would like. What a connundrum.


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## Pearlsasinger (23 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			It's a rather curt statement, and reading that I'd be very surprised if she wasn't pushed.
		
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It is a short factual statement, which it would not be easy to take to court. I expect that an HR officer wrote it and it was probably agreed by SM's legal representative.  The vast majority of teachers are union members and most would have immediately involved their union in getting them out of the situation.


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## Tiddlypom (23 December 2021)

All the news media including the BBC, ITV, the red tops and the less flighty newspapers like the Guardian are reporting that she has been sacked.

If she hasn't been sacked and she instead left voluntarily, she and her team need to get that corrected pronto.

I hope that her union, if she was in one (and almost all teachers are), was both clued up and supportive. Everyone should get a fair hearing.


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## Pearlsasinger (23 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			All the news media including the BBC, ITV, the red tops and the less flighty newspapers like the Guardian are reporting that she has been sacked.

If she hasn't been sacked and she instead left voluntarily, she and her team need to get that corrected pronto.

I hope that her union, if she was in one (and almost all teachers are), was both clued up and supportive.
		
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*Please note, I have *no inside information**

The union position is usually, 'least said, soonest mended' in these cases. There is no need at all for the general public, or indeed the sabs/CP to be given any further information.  Any future employer will soon find out what the actual position was.


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## Lois Lame (24 December 2021)

Would any future employee find that out? I don't think so.

ETA: Oh, hang on, maybe they would. But in my place of work, when someone was suspended and then terminated (if that's what happened after being suspended) we'd know nothing other than the person was for some reason not present.

It was only much, much later that the penny would drop. You had to know the right people who would let on.


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## Mule (24 December 2021)

sbloom said:



			I'm really glad my twenties were before the advent of social media (even my thirties when at least no-one brought phones to pubs and nightclubs on the scale they do now!)!
		
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Oh dear God, I agree with this so much 
Young people must have to be wary of everything they do now 😬


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## Pearlsasinger (25 December 2021)

Lois Lame said:



			Would any future employee find that out? I don't think so.

ETA: Oh, hang on, maybe they would. But in my place of work, when someone was suspended and then terminated (if that's what happened after being suspended) we'd know nothing other than the person was for some reason not present.

It was only much, much later that the penny would drop. You had to know the right people who would let on.
		
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Any future *employer *would be appraised of her employment history.  There can be no secrets in education.  Any unaccounted for day is researched, as part of DBS/Safeguarding checks.   Colleagues wouldn't find out, unless for some reason the person in question decided to tell them.   Education managers are also very good at keeping secrets, we do it all the time about pupils' families.


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## Arzada (25 December 2021)

A mule in a manger said:



			Oh dear God, I agree with this so much 
Young people must have to be wary of everything they do now 😬
		
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Yes back in the day "Today's news is tomorrow's fish and chip paper…."

Oh the pleasure of eating chips with newspaper ink stained fingers!


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## Mule (25 December 2021)

Arzada said:



			Yes back in the day "Today's news is tomorrow's fish and chip paper…."

Oh the pleasure of eating chips with newspaper ink stained fingers!
		
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😋


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## honetpot (25 December 2021)

Lois Lame said:



			Would any future employee find that out? I don't think so.

ETA: Oh, hang on, maybe they would. But in my place of work, when someone was suspended and then terminated (if that's what happened after being suspended) we'd know nothing other than the person was for some reason not present.

It was only much, much later that the penny would drop. You had to know the right people who would let on.
		
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 It  all depends on the terms of the termination.


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## Sossigpoker (25 December 2021)

A future employer could ask for a reference,  including why the employment ended. Don't know how often they actually do check for things like reason for leaving previous role.


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## Pearlsasinger (25 December 2021)

Sossigpoker said:



			A future employer could ask for a reference,  including why the employment ended. Don't know how often they actually do check for things like reason for leaving previous role.
		
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As said before,  DBS/Safeguarding checks need to have every day accounted for.  Teachers who have been dismissed because of safeguarding issues are listed with DfE (List 99) and are not allowed to teach/work with children again.


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