# Even more livery yards moving towards banning winter turnout?



## lewis2015 (26 October 2016)

Hi all 

Just posting as I'm feeling increasingly fed up and frustrated over the winter turnout options available in the area that I live. Two years ago I moved my horse to a rather 'rough round the edges' yard for the sole reason that they had 24/7 summer turnout and all day winter turnout. He's getting old now and I don't want him stood around in a stable getting stiff and swollen. He also goes stir crazy when in all the time, as I experienced when he was on box rest one time. In the 4 years I've owned him I've moved him 3 times for various reasons, but mainly due to the yards I was on putting heavy restrictions on winter turnout. 

On my current yard, last year we started on every day winter turnout but after xmas some of the horses started wrecking the fences (due to field being overstocked and owners not really feeding them hay before they went out), so the owner limited it to every other day which was fine and worked ok for me and my horse. 

I've since bought another horse (16 yr old ex racer who is fine when stabled at night, but gets stressy when in for too long). 

Yesterday I just happened to be told in passing by another livery that this year the YO is limiting TO to an hour a day over winter!? I emailed the yard owner to confirm and she said that it will be half day turnout to start with, but going to an hour if weather gets bad and any horses that wreck fences will be limited to an hour when their owners are there. Mine have never wrecked fencing so I'm not worried about that, but the prospect of an hour a day if it rains heavily like last winter is awful  

I'm a bit annoyed that they are making this change without properly informing people, and I've now got the stress of finding somewhere else. The problem is there is no where else! In the four years I've had my gelding I've been on 4 livery yards and been to look at 10+ other local yards. All either had very limited/ no winter turnout, had no DIY livery option and extortionate prices for part livery, or silly rules like 'can't be on yard before 8am' (I work full time and sort my horses at 6am before work). I've also tried desperately to find a field to rent but no joy there either. 

Sorry for the long post, I'm just infuriated at what seems to be becoming more acceptable as a culture shift towards no winter turnout. 25/30 years ago when I was riding as a youngster the horses lived out 24/7 all year with no problems. Fields were not overstocked and people weren't scared of a bit of mud. 

Is this particular to the north west or have others experienced this? Would your horses cope on an hour a day turnout? (NB - my horses are both older, semi-retired and are only used for light hacking a couple of times a week). 

(X-posted on the north west board to see if others have similar experience).


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## Jnhuk (26 October 2016)

The only long term solution I can see is to rent your own field then you can keep them as you like but don't know how easy that will be in your area or look for a livery yard that runs a track system but they are quite rare I believe


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## lewis2015 (26 October 2016)

Jnhuk said:



			The only long term solution I can see is to rent your own field then you can keep them as you like but don't know how easy that will be in your area or look for a livery yard that runs a track system but they are quite rare I believe
		
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Thanks for the reply  The only livery yard I know of in the area running a track system is a yard I used to be on and left because of the way it was run :/ The owners do not have a good local reputation and by all accounts their track system is being run incorrectly and is a bit of a disaster. I agree that I think really I need to rent my own field, I just haven't been able to find one! I don't really know where to look and don't have 'in the know' contacts in the horsey/farming world as I'm newish to the area and don't have a farming background in the family. I'll keep looking, though! Thanks


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## Carrots&Mints (26 October 2016)

I'm in the north west and have moved yards quite a bit over the last 12 months to find a perfect yard and so far no good, yards 'promised' winter turnout, but when it actually came to turnout, we never got any!! The first one didn't even have decent summer turn out do to terrible management. The second one said they had winter turnout, but because YO girlfriend wanted her horses out, they came first! Sod the 40 customers with horses all going nuts! 3rd yard not too bad, had winter turnout twice a week, and choice of a 24/7 field but it wasn't the safest, but the option is there and that's the nearest I've got to perfect. Unfortunately, due to working away during the week, I've sent my pony to be on full livery with my friend who owns his own yard so as long as the fields are dry, the horses go out. And even better... its an only gelding and stallion yard... no mares! 1 less hassle and plenty of turnout!


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## Theocat (26 October 2016)

Unfortunately, I suspect the "extortionate prices" are in fact reasonable prices if you want yard owners to a) maintain reasonable stocking levels for the amount of grazing and b) make any sort of living at all.

The culture shift isn't towards less turnout; it's towards more people wanting to spend less. Less turnout is just a side effect.

The problem is that because so many yards will offer cheap livery, that barely covers their costs and forces them to cut corners on things like maintenance or turnout time, unreasonably low pieces become the norm - and realistic prices for realistic service look expensive by comparison. Everyone is suffering as a result  - horse owners, yard owners and horses.


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## elsielouise (26 October 2016)

I have had the exact same problem over the years I ever kept horses in livery so feel your pain. Now I am old and can finally afford my own land and yard I am offering livery. I don't want DIY as I want my own routines but I categorically turn out every day/bed up my stables and liveries can have free access to them from the field.

My query is how much would you actually be prepared to pay for the quality winter grazing you want? I could run 7-8 horses and stable them through the winter or have three and guarantee mud free turnout. But it would cost more.

Would you actually be prepared to pay the £90 a week for what you might think is full grass livery (south East) but is actually well managed livery with clean fields safe fencing and not overstocked!


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## Doormouse (26 October 2016)

Theocat said:



			Unfortunately, I suspect the "extortionate prices" are in fact reasonable prices if you want yard owners to a) maintain reasonable stocking levels for the amount of grazing and b) make any sort of living at all.

The culture shift isn't towards less turnout; it's towards more people wanting to spend less. Less turnout is just a side effect.

The problem is that because so many yards will offer cheap livery, that barely covers their costs and forces them to cut corners on things like maintenance or turnout time, unreasonably low pieces become the norm - and realistic prices for realistic service look expensive by comparison. Everyone is suffering as a result  - horse owners, yard owners and horses.
		
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I was just going to post exactly this!

The cost of DIY has barely gone up in the last 15 years but cost of living has gone shooting up. Livery owners know that if they put their prices up to be able to not over stock their land, lots of liveries will leave.


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## meleeka (26 October 2016)

There's a small yard near me that charges £25 a week but only allowed turnout during the day when the land is dry. Some summers they barely get turned out at all and never in winter. They have lovely green fields but what's the point when they can only be used rarely?  There are too many horses for a small piece of land imo.

I would pay £90 per week for guaranteed turnout. I have my own small field and although one bit gets trashed in winter, it recovers by the next year. Next year I may reseed which is under £50 an acre. Maybe the difference is that I don't expect it to be a food  source all year and do also provide hay.


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## Archangel (26 October 2016)

Mother Nature has a big hand in it. 

I am on sand so very free draining - years ago I could walk out and do the horses in my work shoes in the middle of winter.  However the last few winters have been so wet that I have mud, not just a bit but horrible sloshy mud over a third of the field - this is 2 unshod horses and on sand.  Any more horses and there wouldn't be a dry bit in the field - Just down the road is clay and previously they could turn out until Christmas - now as soon as it gets wet they can't turn out at all because the water table is so high. 

If you want year round turnout see if you can find some sandy soil at least you have a chance then.  I did 12 years on clay soil - never again.


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## ycbm (26 October 2016)

I think your problem is also your location. It isn't called the High Peak for nothing . I'm White Peak, to the west, but the whole Peak Park is essentially poorly drained moorland where it also rains a lot. I run two horses and two minis on twelve acres of steep land where the rain runs off. I could probably just about do two more big horses, but some parts would be a complete mess.  You can't run a livery yard on one horse to every three acres and make any money.


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## honetpot (26 October 2016)

The trouble with land is they just are not making anymore. If you want to buy a small acreage its about 10-15k and acre, if you buy a house and normal mortgage will only lend on a house with up to two acres, so you have to have a commercials mortgage, if you can get one the interest rate is higher. Overstocking is the only way to make the rent/mortgage payments for some its a commercial decision.
  The only person I know who has unlimited turnout is a farmer who does not actively farm and its  a big enough farm to waste 50 acres on horses.
  I am on clay, the water just sits there, so I have a thrash paddock and they are fed hay in rings from November to April, its just what you have to do to manage the land.


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## sport horse (26 October 2016)

I have my own horses - 20 sport horses - and I have 50 acres of land. The youngsters and mares and foals live out all summer (May thro to 2nd January hopefully). The sport horses go out for a maximum of half a day through those months. Nothing goes out at all from Jan until at least mid April.

I have my own farm equipment to harrow, roll, top etc, as and exactly when, needed. On wet land sometimes it can be just one or two strips around a muddy field per day a it dries out!

Large holdings of agricultural land around me go for £10,000 per acre. Small amounts have been known to reach the dizzy heights of £40,000 per acre.

Can I suggest that those complaining, yet again, about greedy livery yard owners, go out and buy their own land and equipment and do it themselves.

I would not have a livery anywhere near my yard!!


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## GoldenWillow (26 October 2016)

I'm in the North West and all of the yards that I know bar one have heavily restricted and sometimes no winter turnout.


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## tatty_v (26 October 2016)

It must be so frustrating for you.  I don't think my pony would cope on 1hr's turnout a day in winter, I probably wouldn't be able to catch him!  We are on a farm and pay £90 a month for totally DIY livery.  Turnout is 24/7 all year round, but it is our own responsibility to manage our paddocks in whatever way we see fit (e.g. track systems, using sections at a time etc).  Rolling and harrowing get done for us in the Spring.  It's pretty rough around the edges, but it works and we are all extremely grateful as we know it's not the norm.  Does your yard have an all weather turnout you could use?  At least then your boy could stretch his legs x


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## Slightly Foxed (26 October 2016)

Theocat said:



			Unfortunately, I suspect the "extortionate prices" are in fact reasonable prices if you want yard owners to a) maintain reasonable stocking levels for the amount of grazing and b) make any sort of living at all.

The culture shift isn't towards less turnout; it's towards more people wanting to spend less. Less turnout is just a side effect.

The problem is that because so many yards will offer cheap livery, that barely covers their costs and forces them to cut corners on things like maintenance or turnout time, unreasonably low pieces become the norm - and realistic prices for realistic service look expensive by comparison. Everyone is suffering as a result  - horse owners, yard owners and horses.
		
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This exactly. I have all year turnout. My paddocks are divided for winter and summer use. I'm on heavy clay so the winter paddocks get trashed but I've also invested in properly constructed, well drained, woodchip turnout areas in each of the winter paddocks so the horses can get out of the mud. That didn't come cheap I can tell you!


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## lewis2015 (26 October 2016)

Theocat said:



			Unfortunately, I suspect the "extortionate prices" are in fact reasonable prices if you want yard owners to a) maintain reasonable stocking levels for the amount of grazing and b) make any sort of living at all.

The culture shift isn't towards less turnout; it's towards more people wanting to spend less. Less turnout is just a side effect.

The problem is that because so many yards will offer cheap livery, that barely covers their costs and forces them to cut corners on things like maintenance or turnout time, unreasonably low pieces become the norm - and realistic prices for realistic service look expensive by comparison. Everyone is suffering as a result  - horse owners, yard owners and horses.
		
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Thanks for your thoughts, Theocat. Whilst I don't agree, I take on board your perspective. 

I earn a decent salary of £40k plus and I still can't comfortably afford some of the 'part' livery prices in this area for two horses. Part livery is a MASSIVE compromise for me as I bought my horses to look after myself and that's the main thing I enjoy about it. I do consider it extortionate to pay upwards of £800 a month for someone to put a feed bucket in, change a rug and turf out in the field (as believe me, this is all 'part' livery consists of round here), especially when I can and WANT to do this myself. Fair enough, you'll probably say then don't do livery get your own land, which is what I'd like to do but is easier said than done. It's a shame if we are getting towards a situation where only the mega wealthy can afford horses. 

This is coupled with my absolutely woeful experience of 'part' livery in the past - for example, the assistants not being able to control my strong ID gelding and letting him get loose when lead, not putting feeds in until gone 11am, 'forgetting' to bring him on a evening, turning out in a stable rug, not giving him hay before turnout, accidentally giving him another horse's feed... the list goes on! I'm sorry, but I only want to do DIY and I don't agree that this should mean I accept no winter turnout.


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## lewis2015 (26 October 2016)

Carrots&Mints said:



			I'm in the north west and have moved yards quite a bit over the last 12 months to find a perfect yard and so far no good, yards 'promised' winter turnout, but when it actually came to turnout, we never got any!! The first one didn't even have decent summer turn out do to terrible management. The second one said they had winter turnout, but because YO girlfriend wanted her horses out, they came first! Sod the 40 customers with horses all going nuts! 3rd yard not too bad, had winter turnout twice a week, and choice of a 24/7 field but it wasn't the safest, but the option is there and that's the nearest I've got to perfect. Unfortunately, due to working away during the week, I've sent my pony to be on full livery with my friend who owns his own yard so as long as the fields are dry, the horses go out. And even better... its an only gelding and stallion yard... no mares! 1 less hassle and plenty of turnout! 

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Thanks for the reply, C&M  I'm glad you've finally found something suitable for your pony! It is a pain in this area!


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## lewis2015 (26 October 2016)

sport horse said:



			I have my own horses - 20 sport horses - and I have 50 acres of land. The youngsters and mares and foals live out all summer (May thro to 2nd January hopefully). The sport horses go out for a maximum of half a day through those months. Nothing goes out at all from Jan until at least mid April.

I have my own farm equipment to harrow, roll, top etc, as and exactly when, needed. On wet land sometimes it can be just one or two strips around a muddy field per day a it dries out!

Large holdings of agricultural land around me go for £10,000 per acre. Small amounts have been known to reach the dizzy heights of £40,000 per acre.

Can I suggest that those complaining, yet again, about greedy livery yard owners, go out and buy their own land and equipment and do it themselves.

I would not have a livery anywhere near my yard!!
		
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Hi - thanks for your reply. I think you're right, I do need to think of it from landowners' perspective a bit more. However, I wasn't really saying landowners were 'greedy', more asking if people think an hour a day is reasonable and not cruel.


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## ben456 (26 October 2016)

this is my first winter as a horse owner. the 'summer field' holds around 15 horses 24/7 from around feb-nov. the land is on a tilt and is made up of different secstions, its starting to get muddy now and at the beginning of summer it dried up around may. i would say that field is not much more than 15 acres. in winter i think we all move to another field which is slightly smaller, im not sure how muddy it gets though and back into the 'summer firld beginning of feb. i arrived with my first horse at end of feb and it was quite muddy but no one really minds as their horses come to call ( mine seems to be the only one that wont &#65533;&#65533 i pay £21 a week but heared yo saying to some new people that she is raising it to £25, which i wouldnt really be happy paying because the fences are rubbish, there are some hazards in the field but its the best available in the area until i can find somewhere for myself

-forgot to mention that horse come in overnight and out all day in winter, from around november to april.


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## scats (26 October 2016)

I'm from the North West and it seems winter turnout is a big problem everywhere.  I coped for a number of years on a yard with a bog of a winter field on clay soil, by December it was unusable and you couldn't get a horse in or out without fear of being sucked into the ground.  We could turn out for an hour or two in rubber paddocks.  This was from November til May.  Horrendous.

I'm now on a much smaller yard, we have individual turnout (well, paired, owners choice who they pair with), most of us have two horses each so we just do our own thing.  We have 24/7 turnout from April til November and daily turnout all winter.  YO asks that we are sensible, so if it's lashing with rain and has been for a few days, she expects us to use our common sense and just give them a few hours morning/afternoon or evening, which is fine as these are just occasional days and it does stop our fields from being trashed.  We have no mud, absolutely none.  No-one believes us until they see it, but we rotate fields, rest them often, never over stock them and generally look after them.  We did have standing water on a few last winter (no surprise there, given the weather) but we just fenced those parts off.

I could never go back to no proper winter turnout.


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## Damnation (26 October 2016)

I'm even further North West than you, and yes, winter turnout restrictions or no turnout at all are very common set ups.

Of the 4 yards I have been on in the last 6 years, 2 had/have (I am on one now) winter turnout. 

The first yard that didn't do winter turnout had a big lean to they didn't mind horses going loose into and would put them out in groups throughout the day (Including DIY liveries, they just did it!), then we could use it at night too whilst mucking out, along with an indoor arena and floodlit all weather outdoor the horses coped very well with pleanty of opportunity to leg stretch and socialise.

Second yard, no arena, promised winter turnout but got none, nowhere was lit so at night when it was dark I couldn't walk her anywhere. She ended up in for 6 months, I was going nuts, especially as YO's horses went out 6 weeks before ours did. I left.

I am very lucky that I am on a yard that offers daily winter turnout however it is VERY muddy (on marshland), but we all chip together to keep the round feeder in the field stocked up with hay so they always have access to food. I am happy with this - my horse would rather be out, knee deep in mud with hay than stuck in a stable which is the exact reason I moved to this yard. I will not be leaving any time soon!!!!

ETA: YM rents the yard from an estate, our livery covers rent and the estate do the repairs, we order hay seperately although can use YM's supplier. Its £90 PCM for livery, £25 for a large round bale of hay. I know I have a very good deal!


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## 9tails (26 October 2016)

I will never get my head around complaints that £25 for stabling and grazing per week is expensive!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (26 October 2016)

9tails said:



			I will never get my head around complaints that £25 for stabling and grazing per week is expensive!
		
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Me neither, I was charging that in 1990 - 26 years ago!
Do people really expect to pay less than £3.60 a day? :confused3:


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## ben456 (26 October 2016)

i wouldnt mind paying it as i know it is still cheap, however i think the yo should consider improving the horses safety first. £20-£25 is the average around here for stable and grazing


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## Slightly Foxed (26 October 2016)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Me neither, I was charging that in 1990 - 26 years ago!
Do people really expect to pay less than £3.60 a day? :confused3:
		
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To cover non domestic rates, water, electricity, maintenance, etc etc


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## lewis2015 (26 October 2016)

9tails said:



			I will never get my head around complaints that £25 for stabling and grazing per week is expensive!
		
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I don't think that is expensive so I'm guessing that is aimed at someone else. 

To be fair to my YO I have spoken today and it appears the issue is mainly with a couple of horses who are fence wrecking so hopefully we can ensure most of the horses still get a reasonable amount of turnout.


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## Maesfen (26 October 2016)

Right - Rant time and I won't be sorry to those I offend; sorry and all that!

I totally agree with Theocat, Elsielouise, Honetpot and others in the same vein.

People who want DIY or any other type of livery just do not have any idea of the running costs of having that sort of yard but think their £15 a week entitles them to everything they demand without any restrictions.  By the same token, people who opened yards accepting too many horses for their land without doing their homework from both the financial POV and the toll it would take on their land are also delusional idiots.
Cheap and horses are not words that fit in one sentence; it just can't happen.  If it is cheap, it will be rubbish and it's exactly the same when looking for livery.  
Cheap livery will not be able to supply your needs for very long without having to make changes whether that means fencing failing badly, supplying (and charging) for extra hay when the grass has gone or restricting grazing at wet times of the year; even worse if you require someone to do jobs in your place.  If a horse is stabled and turned out, you want those jobs and associated ones (mucking out, bedding down, feeding, filling haynets, changing rugs, picking out feet, turning out, catching in and so on) it's going to be at least 1 hour of time during the day spent on that horse; minimum wage is £7 ?? so that's an extra £35 a week at least on top of your grazing/stable costs alone; you can't expect it done for nothing.
Again, by the same token, you can't expect yard owners to allow all of their fields to be trashed during wet weather without some restrictions in place else the land is ruined, there'd be no grass for the next year and then you'd be moaning too.  Weather has to be taken into account plus the type of land and the stocking rates too.  Ideally, a 40 horse yard would need at least 80 acres to do the job properly so if the stocking rate is too dense you just know that will lead to problems when the weather is bad; whether that be by restricted turnout or whatever.  It's up to you to do your homework for every season (including things like unprecedented rainfall which is common in the north west)  Everything costs and in fairness to most decent livery owners, it shouldn't be them footing the whole bill from their own pocket, the livery charges should allow for all maintenance costs such as rolling, harrowing, repairs, hedgecutting and general upkeep let alone something so trivial as towards a wage of some sort.  Most livery owners live on site, it's their home too so to a certain extent it needs to be run for their convenience too especially if there are common entrances and the house is on the yard, not tucked away from it.  I wouldn't want anyone knocking about at 6am either unless it was a one off for a vet, cubbing or a show or at the other end of the day either; they deserve some quiet time and your cheap livery is certainly not a reason to expect access all hours as a right.

Put simply - If you aren't prepared to pay a decent price for livery of any type, then don't have a horse at all.  Don't expect others to subsidise your hobby and then complain about it.  
You'd be the one complaining if you were in the YO's shoes, believe me.  I totally agree that livery yard owners need to be realistic in their expectations too, to not over stock, provide decent grazing, fences and so on, but don't blame them if they try to protect their property (no amount of livery will cover the damage caused) by placing fair restrictions when necessary.  
Until it's your property, you don't have a say in the matter so if you don't like it, vote with your feet.


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## be positive (26 October 2016)

ben456 said:



			i wouldnt mind paying it as i know it is still cheap, however i think the yo should consider improving the horses safety first. £20-£25 is the average around here for stable and grazing
		
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The problem is that the YO is making just over £300 per week from 15 stables and however much grazing they have, there just isn't enough money available from that income to invest heavily into improving the facilities, to fence 15 acres would cost several months income and will never pay for itself so they probably just patch up and make do.

The cost of buying a horse has gone down in real terms, so has DIY livery, full and part vary so much from area to area it is hard to judge but generally have probably kept fairly in line with inflation, it is the other associated costs that have risen, shoeing, tack, vets, insurance and for a YO the price of land, buildings, staff and other overheads will have gone up significantly.

FF if you were charging £25 in 1990 now it would be £56 which is probably about right but how many people would think it fair for the use of a stable, an acre or two of field, an arena plus various storage areas, as long as there are yards charging as little as some quoted, £90 a month is so cheap, then everyone will be reluctant to pay and continue to moan about poor maintenance, lack of turnout or whatever is the issue with their yard at any moment in time, nowhere is likely to be perfect unless you buy your own property and find out the real cost of having land.


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## charlie76 (26 October 2016)

I run a yard with just full and part livery, we are lucky as we are on free draining sandy soil, however, in extreme weather they still get trashed if horses are out all day on it. I will restrict turn out if it gets very wet, we have an indoor turn out area and a walker we can use if need be.

PS... I will never be rich running a yard! Even on part and full livery prices, I've been doing it for five years and only just started making a small profit!


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## Nugget La Poneh (26 October 2016)

I think the recent weather patterns over winter haven't helped, either physically or psychologically. Physically because the land is so waterlogged, it can't cope with the load, regardless of the soil type - even managed surfaces are struggling. Psychologically, because I would hazard a guess that if we were under a foot of frozen snow for winter, people wouldn't complain quite so much.

I'm very, very fortunate - I have year round 24/7 grazing that I can manage pretty much how I want. But there are other areas that I've had to compromise on and the prices are rising steadily each year. I don't have a problem with the cost, I know it's not cheap and I have what many owners don't. Would like it though it they fixed the lights in the hay barn though - not sure my foot can take much more stubbing in the mornings!!


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## lewis2015 (26 October 2016)

Maesfen said:



			Right - Rant time and I won't be sorry to those I offend; sorry and all that!

I totally agree with Theocat, Elsielouise, Honetpot and others in the same vein.

People who want DIY or any other type of livery just do not have any idea of the running costs of having that sort of yard but think their £15 a week entitles them to everything they demand without any restrictions.  By the same token, people who opened yards accepting too many horses for their land without doing their homework from both the financial POV and the toll it would take on their land are also delusional idiots.
Cheap and horses are not words that fit in one sentence; it just can't happen.  If it is cheap, it will be rubbish and it's exactly the same when looking for livery.  
Cheap livery will not be able to supply your needs for very long without having to make changes whether that means fencing failing badly, supplying (and charging) for extra hay when the grass has gone or restricting grazing at wet times of the year; even worse if you require someone to do jobs in your place.  If a horse is stabled and turned out, you want those jobs and associated ones (mucking out, bedding down, feeding, filling haynets, changing rugs, picking out feet, turning out, catching in and so on) it's going to be at least 1 hour of time during the day spent on that horse; minimum wage is £7 ?? so that's an extra £35 a week at least on top of your grazing/stable costs alone; you can't expect it done for nothing.
Again, by the same token, you can't expect yard owners to allow all of their fields to be trashed during wet weather without some restrictions in place else the land is ruined, there'd be no grass for the next year and then you'd be moaning too.  Weather has to be taken into account plus the type of land and the stocking rates too.  Ideally, a 40 horse yard would need at least 80 acres to do the job properly so if the stocking rate is too dense you just know that will lead to problems when the weather is bad; whether that be by restricted turnout or whatever.  It's up to you to do your homework for every season (including things like unprecedented rainfall which is common in the north west)  Everything costs and in fairness to most decent livery owners, it shouldn't be them footing the whole bill from their own pocket, the livery charges should allow for all maintenance costs such as rolling, harrowing, repairs, hedgecutting and general upkeep let alone something so trivial as towards a wage of some sort.  Most livery owners live on site, it's their home too so to a certain extent it needs to be run for their convenience too especially if there are common entrances and the house is on the yard, not tucked away from it.  I wouldn't want anyone knocking about at 6am either unless it was a one off for a vet, cubbing or a show or at the other end of the day either; they deserve some quiet time and your cheap livery is certainly not a reason to expect access all hours as a right.

Put simply - If you aren't prepared to pay a decent price for livery of any type, then don't have a horse at all.  Don't expect others to subsidise your hobby and then complain about it.  
You'd be the one complaining if you were in the YO's shoes, believe me.  I totally agree that livery yard owners need to be realistic in their expectations too, to not over stock, provide decent grazing, fences and so on, but don't blame them if they try to protect their property (no amount of livery will cover the damage caused) by placing fair restrictions when necessary.  
Until it's your property, you don't have a say in the matter so if you don't like it, vote with your feet.
		
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I'm not sure how this descended into a rant fest about people not paying more for livery!? At no point have I said what I currently pay and what I pay is not the issue. My question was how reasonable is it to manage an hour a day turnout? I understand that it is not my land and that the decisions are not mine to make, however saying 'vote with your feet' is a simplistic suggestion when the livery situation in my area does not really allow this. And I am also financially stable and carefully budgeted for my horses thanks, so suggesting that this is a miser's standpoint is facile. I simply refuse to pay excessive amounts (more than my mortgage) for 'part' livery which is substandard to the care I can offer. Plus, none of the part livery yards in my area actually offer superior turnout facilities anyway. Whilst I agree that limiting turnout in bad weather is a necessary evil (e.g. every other day, half days etc) my point was that an hour a day is an extreme reaction and one that I believe to be counter productive. How is letting horses out for an hour and inevitably watching them hooly around and churn up fields even more preferable to a few hours of calm turnout in smaller groups?


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## 9tails (26 October 2016)

ben456 said:



			i wouldnt mind paying it as i know it is still cheap, however i think the yo should consider improving the horses safety first. £20-£25 is the average around here for stable and grazing
		
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This astounds me.  So £21 per week is fine even though you're compromising your horse's safety.  Mine is a lot more expensive for DIY livery, you know why?  Because they put money into good fencing and a decent school.  We get restricted during winter, because some liveries are complete idiots and will turn their fields into bogs if given half a chance.


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## DD (26 October 2016)

Theocat said:



			Unfortunately, I suspect the "extortionate prices" are in fact reasonable prices if you want yard owners to a) maintain reasonable stocking levels for the amount of grazing and b) make any sort of living at all.

The culture shift isn't towards less turnout; it's towards more people wanting to spend less. Less turnout is just a side effect.

The problem is that because so many yards will offer cheap livery, that barely covers their costs and forces them to cut corners on things like maintenance or turnout time, unreasonably low pieces become the norm - and realistic prices for realistic service look expensive by comparison. Everyone is suffering as a result  - horse owners, yard owners and horses.
		
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^^^^
I agree


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## DD (26 October 2016)

Maesfen said:



			Right - Rant time and I won't be sorry to those I offend; sorry and all that!

I totally agree with Theocat, Elsielouise, Honetpot and others in the same vein.

People who want DIY or any other type of livery just do not have any idea of the running costs of having that sort of yard but think their £15 a week entitles them to everything they demand without any restrictions.  By the same token, people who opened yards accepting too many horses for their land without doing their homework from both the financial POV and the toll it would take on their land are also delusional idiots.
Cheap and horses are not words that fit in one sentence; it just can't happen.  If it is cheap, it will be rubbish and it's exactly the same when looking for livery.  
Cheap livery will not be able to supply your needs for very long without having to make changes whether that means fencing failing badly, supplying (and charging) for extra hay when the grass has gone or restricting grazing at wet times of the year; even worse if you require someone to do jobs in your place.  If a horse is stabled and turned out, you want those jobs and associated ones (mucking out, bedding down, feeding, filling haynets, changing rugs, picking out feet, turning out, catching in and so on) it's going to be at least 1 hour of time during the day spent on that horse; minimum wage is £7 ?? so that's an extra £35 a week at least on top of your grazing/stable costs alone; you can't expect it done for nothing.
Again, by the same token, you can't expect yard owners to allow all of their fields to be trashed during wet weather without some restrictions in place else the land is ruined, there'd be no grass for the next year and then you'd be moaning too.  Weather has to be taken into account plus the type of land and the stocking rates too.  Ideally, a 40 horse yard would need at least 80 acres to do the job properly so if the stocking rate is too dense you just know that will lead to problems when the weather is bad; whether that be by restricted turnout or whatever.  It's up to you to do your homework for every season (including things like unprecedented rainfall which is common in the north west)  Everything costs and in fairness to most decent livery owners, it shouldn't be them footing the whole bill from their own pocket, the livery charges should allow for all maintenance costs such as rolling, harrowing, repairs, hedgecutting and general upkeep let alone something so trivial as towards a wage of some sort.  Most livery owners live on site, it's their home too so to a certain extent it needs to be run for their convenience too especially if there are common entrances and the house is on the yard, not tucked away from it.  I wouldn't want anyone knocking about at 6am either unless it was a one off for a vet, cubbing or a show or at the other end of the day either; they deserve some quiet time and your cheap livery is certainly not a reason to expect access all hours as a right.

Put simply - If you aren't prepared to pay a decent price for livery of any type, then don't have a horse at all.  Don't expect others to subsidise your hobby and then complain about it.  
You'd be the one complaining if you were in the YO's shoes, believe me.  I totally agree that livery yard owners need to be realistic in their expectations too, to not over stock, provide decent grazing, fences and so on, but don't blame them if they try to protect their property (no amount of livery will cover the damage caused) by placing fair restrictions when necessary.  
Until it's your property, you don't have a say in the matter so if you don't like it, vote with your feet.
		
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Hear, Hear!


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## ben456 (26 October 2016)

i didnt come here for an argument guys. im happy where i am, get more than enough turnout and i understand if the horses have so stay in sometimes. the yard is all diy and the cost for diy in my area is quite cheap so £25 is a little bit over the average as we dont have any facilities. we dont have a menage and we have no where to ride on the yard, we have to hack out. the yo doesnt have to pay anyone as they do everything theirselves. the yo said they dont mind people being about from around 5:30am, im there at 7am and im usually the first there. im also more than happy to leave there no later than 7:30pm. i wont exactly complain about paying £25 and ill be happy to pay it.


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## LeedsHorseys (26 October 2016)

Theocat said:



			Unfortunately, I suspect the "extortionate prices" are in fact reasonable prices if you want yard owners to a) maintain reasonable stocking levels for the amount of grazing and b) make any sort of living at all.

The culture shift isn't towards less turnout; it's towards more people wanting to spend less. Less turnout is just a side effect.

The problem is that because so many yards will offer cheap livery, that barely covers their costs and forces them to cut corners on things like maintenance or turnout time, unreasonably low pieces become the norm - and realistic prices for realistic service look expensive by comparison. Everyone is suffering as a result  - horse owners, yard owners and horses.
		
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Would agree with this.  I pay for very expensive livery, but because of that there are not as many horses and plenty of grazing to rotate and rest, meaning they all go out all year unless weather is horrendous/not safe.  You get what you pay for.  Cheap yards overstock the land, and if they don't restrict grazing in winter the fields are destroyed for the summer and people complain there isn't enough grass.. they can't win.


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## Equi (26 October 2016)

My yard have 24/7 summer turnout and then winter paddocks so about three horses to a area about 1/4 maybe just a bit more of an arena size area. Works out okay and is better than having days where they can't leave the stable due to field condition, but I hate that the haylage is restricted - they're obsessive over the haylage. I had a few arguments last year about it too and I expect I will again. I love my yard and so does my horse so I'm reluctant to leave - I just have to stand my corner and buy hay bales and more haylage when I am allowed and repeat over and over that a 17hh 16yo hunter can not survive on the same as a fat native!!


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## skint1 (26 October 2016)

I am so fortunate with my yard, really am,  we have winter turn out, it's up to us to manage whether we want the horses in or out, and I am grateful and respectful. I would pay more if it was required.


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## SEL (26 October 2016)

I've got 2 that really need to be out 24:7 - arthritis, PSSM - and most of the yards around here have said they can't guarantee winter turnout. 

My cheap and cheerful yard currently does allow it because they only have a small number of stables and even though I pay for a stable for both of mine I have 'loaned out' the old boys box at times because he really doesn't like being in. That said the farmer that owns the land had a meltdown the other day about how trashed the fields were looking. We flooded really, really badly at Easter and even though as many horses as possible were pulled off the fields they didn't really recover and we're going into winter with them looking pretty bad. The yard have already said that ad lib haylage is going out soon in the main field and have told the liveries they will need to pay extra for it over winter. 

I'm in the SE where livery is pretty expensive anyway - even DIY. Spare land is practically non existent because it is bought up by property developers on a speculative basis. I costed up once how much I would charge for DIY livery if I owned / rented the yard I was currently on and ran it at an appropriate number of horses per acreage. It was a 50% increase on what I'm currently paying plus I'd be OCD about the amount of hay / straw people currently waste!


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## Damnation (26 October 2016)

I know I am onto a winner, hands down but then it is purely a small DIY yard, it is not YM's only source of income, she also works. Our livery covers the rent and bills for the place. No staff, no time spent with other horses as it is purely DIY.

I always have and always will be happy to pay more if the yard suits, this yard happens to suit and it also happens to be cheap.

However, some YO's take the royal pee. I know liveries do too. I have been treated like poo at some places as a livery but I have also worked on a large yard where the liveries were constantly pushing. It's swings and roundabouts.

I will also say that my yard isn't posh, it isn't swanky, but if she doubled the price I would still stay - cost really doesn't factor into it for me, if it suits, I pay.


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## skint1 (26 October 2016)

great post Damnation, that's exactly how I feel about it too!


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## charlie76 (26 October 2016)

I will also add, and probably be shot down, but as long as the horses have some exercise of some sort none of ours care less when they are on restricted turn out as long as they are all on a similar routine and get out of the box. All are relaxed and happy, any that have vices came to the yard with them so not bought about by restricted turn out. They have access to forage when in, go in the indoor for a roll and leg stretch, on the walker and are ridden. 

As a yard owner I don't stop turn out for my convenience, its actually more work and cost having them in.


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## Amye (26 October 2016)

Back to the original point of the post - regardless of money - I don't think 1 hour turnout is good. Would it not encourage the horses to belt about more and churn up ground as they've been stuck in for 23 hours a day??

The fields at my yard aren't the best, but we have 24/7 turnout in the summer and all day turn out in the winter. Most horses are in by dark in the winter but there's no real time constraint - just they have to be in over night. IMO I don't think it's fair on horses, who are designed for roaming, to be stuck in a stable almost 24/7 for 6 months of the year. 

The perfect solution is obviously to get your own land, but that's difficult enough. I understand where others are coming from regarding costs of running livery yard, and I know managing land is a hard task. But I think that if you can't offer any turnout in winter then you should look at how you CAN offer turnout (more than an hour a day), and if costs have to go up to accommodate that then so be it. People who want their horse to have the best quality of life with more turnout will pay the price.

OP it sounds like a difficult situation you're in and I feel lucky that my boy can graze and roam for most of the day in winter.


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## Damnation (26 October 2016)

It entirely depends.

When my mare was stuck in for 6 months, I would have killed for an hour of turnout a day.

Sometimes, as much as it isn't ideal but beggars can't be choosers.

I will also say OP you have looked at alot of yards and not found any others suitable, I think you need to compromise on something.


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## PorkChop (26 October 2016)

I have oodles of land and use very little for my own horses.

Every time I consider renting out my fields or allowing grass livery I read these type of threads and immediately tell myself not to bother.

I know it has been said before, however managing grass/fencing is bloomin expensive and time consuming.


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## milliepops (26 October 2016)

Amye said:



			Back to the original point of the post - regardless of money - I don't think 1 hour turnout is good. Would it not encourage the horses to belt about more and churn up ground as they've been stuck in for 23 hours a day??
		
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^^ this.  
OP, it's turned into a rant fest not necessarily because of your opening post, but because livery in general is a bit of a contentious subject and the various parties will understandably have an axe to grind 

FWIW I think you've taken a reasonable position being prepared to pay but unable to find suitable offering in the area. My horses have restricted turnout in wet winter weather and might have to stay in for days. I couldn't cope without a school, I'd really struggle if I had to hack both of them to give exercise on those days. It's not ideal when they are in but we cope, the worst thing is actually the hay bills, lol!

Maybe it's time to look further afield to see whether you can find a better compromise even if that means you have to travel further?


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## ihatework (26 October 2016)

Taking livery price out of the debate and just looking at 1h turnout a day issue ....

As a working person it is not ideal as you are obviously limited on daylight hours you can be at the yard to provide the horse with alternative forms of exercise. It is much easier on the individual to deal with what is effectively fully stabled horse if either full exercise livery or it's your own yard and you are working there. As a DIY is is no fun at all trying to manage exercise requirements before and after work, with a fresh and bored horse, potentially with limited access to facilities. In fact it is a massive PITA.

From horse welfare perspective I am very pro turnout. For me it is completely unacceptable to fully stable a non working horse, or even severely restrict turnout.
For working horses, then provided they get a decent amount of work most will settle quite happily into a restricted turnout regime and it is less of a welfare issue, although still less than ideal in my eyes.

I would not personally keep a horse on DIY whereby I could only offer 1h a day turnout for bulk of winter. They either go to a full livery yard and get on a walker one side of day and with facilities to exercise adequately other end of day or I would seriously consider sending further away and turning away for a period.
My general minimum acceptable for a DIY type scenario would be half day turnout through bulk of winter with the very occasional day if closed fields.

For a non working horse then they go out 24/7 and do not stand in a bog all day. If I can't offer that then I can't meet horses needs.


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## Flame_ (26 October 2016)

lewis2015 said:



			Hi all 

Just posting as I'm feeling increasingly fed up and frustrated over the winter turnout options available in the area that I live. Two years ago I moved my horse to a rather 'rough round the edges' yard for the sole reason that they had 24/7 summer turnout and all day winter turnout. He's getting old now and I don't want him stood around in a stable getting stiff and swollen. He also goes stir crazy when in all the time, as I experienced when he was on box rest one time. In the 4 years I've owned him I've moved him 3 times for various reasons, but mainly due to the yards I was on putting heavy restrictions on winter turnout. 

On my current yard, last year we started on every day winter turnout but after xmas some of the horses started wrecking the fences (due to field being overstocked and owners not really feeding them hay before they went out), so the owner limited it to every other day which was fine and worked ok for me and my horse. 

I've since bought another horse (16 yr old ex racer who is fine when stabled at night, but gets stressy when in for too long). 

Yesterday I just happened to be told in passing by another livery that this year the YO is limiting TO to an hour a day over winter!? I emailed the yard owner to confirm and she said that it will be half day turnout to start with, but going to an hour if weather gets bad and any horses that wreck fences will be limited to an hour when their owners are there. Mine have never wrecked fencing so I'm not worried about that, but the prospect of an hour a day if it rains heavily like last winter is awful  

I'm a bit annoyed that they are making this change without properly informing people, and I've now got the stress of finding somewhere else. The problem is there is no where else! In the four years I've had my gelding I've been on 4 livery yards and been to look at 10+ other local yards. All either had very limited/ no winter turnout, had no DIY livery option and extortionate prices for part livery, or silly rules like 'can't be on yard before 8am' (I work full time and sort my horses at 6am before work). I've also tried desperately to find a field to rent but no joy there either. 

Sorry for the long post, I'm just infuriated at what seems to be becoming more acceptable as a culture shift towards no winter turnout. 25/30 years ago when I was riding as a youngster the horses lived out 24/7 all year with no problems. Fields were not overstocked and people weren't scared of a bit of mud. 

Is this particular to the north west or have others experienced this? Would your horses cope on an hour a day turnout? (NB - my horses are both older, semi-retired and are only used for light hacking a couple of times a week). 

(X-posted on the north west board to see if others have similar experience).
		
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I'm in the North West and many yards do have stupidly over-stocked fields and limited turnout. I have, in the past paid part or full livery, and done the horse myself as I want to and am able to, just to be at places with decent, safe, regular turnout. It is a p take, but in your shoes I would sell one horse, drop down to having the one and pay to be somewhere with better standards. They call the charge "labour" and its frustrating to pay it when you don't want or need it, but that is what to do if you want to be content with your horse's turnout arrangement. Also keep an eye out for the odd spot on a private yard. You may not get much in the way of facilities but many private places prioritise the horses' welfare over profits.


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## Luci07 (26 October 2016)

Short answer is no to one hour only. My yard is one of the few that offers all year turn out but expect us to be adult about it. If it is tipping down, mine stays in. Mine is turned out with 3 other big geldings and it is horrible just how quickly 4 big horses will strip out a field. They went into their (rested) winter paddock last year just before Christmas. Field was stripped within 7 weeks. We are on clay so also struggle with mud fever and the entire mud situation as well. Most yards around us won't allow winter turnout but I am keen on this from a socialisation and exercise point of view. While we are all currently enjoying the extended mild weather (ours were all in by now for the  night last year), we are bracing ourselves for rain and mud at some point... as we seemed to be just wrestling with that all last winter! in terms of money, it gets tricky. I am in the SE. Land around here is expensive. Quite a few yards have been sold with planning permission. The base costs for a livery yard manager/owner have increased but salaries haven't. Answers? I don't have any, except to really think about moving further out again..


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## chocolategirl (26 October 2016)

I think this is the 'norm' sadly on a lot of yards and as other posters have said, it's largely down to costs and numbers of horses. That said, I only charge £29 pw DIY with optional assistance, I have guaranteed winter turnout with 24 hr in summer, and can't fill my stables! I hate to see horses stuck in stables and if mine are going out daily(which they ALWAYS do) then my clients horses will be afforded the same option. What I can't guarantee however, is grass all winter, but I do allow hay to be fed in fields. I must admit though, if we have another winter like last winter, I will most likely pack up livery all together as the cost of 'repairing' the knackered paddocks is becoming a major concern. OP, I'm sorry I don't know what to suggest apart from moving area as it seems you have exhausted all the options available to you locally!?


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## cobgoblin (26 October 2016)

Having just read the whole thread....it would appear that horse keeping in the future will be confined to the very rich.....haven't we been here before?


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## Pilatesclare (26 October 2016)

I don't think an hour a day is good enough really.

We have had a number of these threads recently re turnout, livery and cost. I am in the south east and on diy livery as I prefer to and have the time to look after my boy myself, it is not because I want to keep him on the cheap. Part/full livery around here is from £600-£1100 per month. I pay £150 for turnout and stable, arena and OK hacking.

I would not keep my horse on part/full livery as the care of the horses at these yards is way below my standard and I could not put up with it.

But back to the money. I pay what the yard owner charges, I don't offer more the same way as if I buy something from a shop i don't offer more! It is not the fault of horse owners if yard owners aren't charging enough. Yards would not be empty if they charged more.

If yards charged a sensible amount they wouldn't need to over graze the land and therefore there would be sensible amounts of turnout (weather dependent of course). 

May be I am very simplistic in my thinking but all of you saying it's because of the cost and we all want it cheap, actually I just want decent accommodation for my horse and would like to look after him myself and am happy to pay for it!!!


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## OWLIE185 (26 October 2016)

My advice to you is to buy your own place and then you can do what you want.

You will also discover the expenses involved in erecting and maintaining good quality fencing, installing water and water troughs, maintaining the land, hedges and trees etc. and disposing of the bedding and horse manure.
Grass land costs at least £17,000 per acre when purchased in small units.
If it does not have consent for Equestrian use then you will need to instruct a surveyor to get you change of use and planning permission for field shelters and stables.
Good quality stables with concrete bases £3,000 each
Fencing such as heavy duty post and rail with Equi-fencing £20 per metre
Installing a water meter £3,000
Plastic Water Troughs  £350.00
Maintaining the land (Harowing, hedge cutting) about £150 per acre per year.
... and it goes on!


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## ihatework (26 October 2016)

Pilatesclare said:



			May be I am very simplistic in my thinking but all of you saying it's because of the cost and we all want it cheap, actually I just want decent accommodation for my horse and would like to look after him myself and am happy to pay for it!!!
		
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Im with you on your mind set, as I'm sure are others. But unfortunately the sad fact is that there are many people who can't see this.
They think they live in a cheaper area. They think it is normal/acceptable to pay £20 a week. Therefore it's a chicken and egg situation! 

I too don't see why some yards stay open. It can't be financially viable.
Good job those lower end yards do stay open though, what on earth would happen to those horses being kept on the real cheap if those yards were to close?

The honest fact is that horses are an expensive luxury and there is a % of owners that can't really afford it unless cheap and poorly maintained is available at a pittance. I'm sure that statement will ruffle a few feathers but sometimes the truth hurts


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## Fiona (26 October 2016)

Getting back to OP's original  question. ..

I don't think 1hr turnout a day is acceptable,  and would be looking to move. 

Hubby and I liveried at friends  yard years ago, and we're told they had winter  turnout. However in reality this was 3-4 horses per 1/2 acre trash paddock which were mostly weeds so we're mud up to the knees by end of November.  Our 3yo bruised her tendon leaning over the wire fence, so I negotiated 1/2 day turnout in a big barn with hay instead,  but we moved at the end of the winter as it wasn't fair on the horses...

Now we are fortunate enough to have them at home, and have just finished an all weather turnout so they will definitely be out every day..

Winters are definitely getting wetter though..

Fiona


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## laura_nash (26 October 2016)

I don't think 1hr a day turnout is acceptable on an average livery yard (it might work if all the horses were working several hours a day).  Sadly I agree with what others say, it is mostly about land prices.  The changes to the planning rules haven't helped.  Unfortunately I think it is reaching the point where horse ownership is only for the rich (or uncaring) in some parts of the country.

I've never had it really bad, always managed to find at least every couple of days for a few hours unless the weather was really bad.  I have only had really decent turnout at two places in my life though.  

One was in Somerset and was on a council farm (i.e. a farm owned by the council and rented out to the YO who was primarily a farmer).  It was a working organic cattle farm, so you had to accept certain issues (e.g. couldn't get to the muck heap at milking time) and it wasn't pretty (rusting machinery all over the place).  It had lovely grazing though.  Sadly the last I heared it was due to be sold off for a rather staggering sum of money (well over £1m) as the council needs the money.

The second is here at home, we gave up looking for property with land or even just a paddock with water and decent access in Somerset - totally unaffordable.  So we moved to Ireland.


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## lewis2015 (26 October 2016)

Pilatesclare said:



			I don't think an hour a day is good enough really.

We have had a number of these threads recently re turnout, livery and cost. I am in the south east and on diy livery as I prefer to and have the time to look after my boy myself, it is not because I want to keep him on the cheap. Part/full livery around here is from £600-£1100 per month. I pay £150 for turnout and stable, arena and OK hacking.

I would not keep my horse on part/full livery as the care of the horses at these yards is way below my standard and I could not put up with it.

But back to the money. I pay what the yard owner charges, I don't offer more the same way as if I buy something from a shop i don't offer more! It is not the fault of horse owners if yard owners aren't charging enough. Yards would not be empty if they charged more.

If yards charged a sensible amount they wouldn't need to over graze the land and therefore there would be sensible amounts of turnout (weather dependent of course). 

May be I am very simplistic in my thinking but all of you saying it's because of the cost and we all want it cheap, actually I just want decent accommodation for my horse and would like to look after him myself and am happy to pay for it!!!
		
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Thank you! This sums up exactly how I feel. I hadn't realised it, but the assumption that people who want DIY want it as they are cheapskates is ridiculous. I just want to look after my horses myself. Shocking as it may be to some, I actually ENJOY looking after my horses! I would pay more happily if it meant better turnout. I just resent paying more on yards for substandard 'part' livery when turnout isn't actually any better!


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## muddy_grey (26 October 2016)

I know I am the minority and may be shot down for it, but restricted turn out doesn't really bother me.  When I had a horse 25 years we had less winter t/o than I have now, so I don't think it is a new thing.  With the wetter winters it will get worse, but that is not YO fault.  I am in the SE and when I was younger it was always a worry turning out on frozen ground, but last year I think it froze 3 times all year, but was much wetter.

Once horses settle into a routine I don't think shorter t/o periods make them go crazy when they are out.  In the winter I mostly see them go crazy when they want to come in!  However I assume if they are only allowing 1 hour then the YO will be bringing in and turning out for you which seems mad.  Half a day every other day would take far less time.

When I was a kid the horses got 1/2 day per week t/o or if they could be out with another then 2 x 1/2 days.  On the other days it was my responsibility to make sure my horses exercise.  All of the horses were relaxed and happy and we rarely had field accidents in the winter.

The yard I am on now is amazing!  I am on part livery and the YO is great and I have no complaints about horse care.  There is not a huge amount of land, but it is well managed.  There is also a walker which is a great help.  In the winter the horses either go out or on the walker in the morning and then most of the liveries ride in the evening, but if not they go on the walker again.  There are a few retirees, who go out everyday unless the weather is horrendous.  The rest of the liveries go out when the weather suits, but if they have to stay in then they go on the walker twice.  The horses are all very happy.  If I know I won't be up because of work then I tell the YO and she will normally make sure L goes out as long as the weather is OK.


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## ljohnsonsj (26 October 2016)

muddy_grey said:



			I know I am the minority and may be shot down for it, but restricted turn out doesn't really bother me.  When I had a horse 25 years we had less winter t/o than I have now, so I don't think it is a new thing.  With the wetter winters it will get worse, but that is not YO fault.  I am in the SE and when I was younger it was always a worry turning out on frozen ground, but last year I think it froze 3 times all year, but was much wetter.

Once horses settle into a routine I don't think shorter t/o periods make them go crazy when they are out.  In the winter I mostly see them go crazy when they want to come in!  However I assume if they are only allowing 1 hour then the YO will be bringing in and turning out for you which seems mad.  Half a day every other day would take far less time.

When I was a kid the horses got 1/2 day per week t/o or if they could be out with another then 2 x 1/2 days.  On the other days it was my responsibility to make sure my horses exercise.  All of the horses were relaxed and happy and we rarely had field accidents in the winter.

The yard I am on now is amazing!  I am on part livery and the YO is great and I have no complaints about horse care.  There is not a huge amount of land, but it is well managed.  There is also a walker which is a great help.  In the winter the horses either go out or on the walker in the morning and then most of the liveries ride in the evening, but if not they go on the walker again.  There are a few retirees, who go out everyday unless the weather is horrendous.  The rest of the liveries go out when the weather suits, but if they have to stay in then they go on the walker twice.  The horses are all very happy.  If I know I won't be up because of work then I tell the YO and she will normally make sure L goes out as long as the weather is OK.
		
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100% Agree with this. Ours are in all winter, they can go for a mad half hour in the school if you wish and we also have the walker and they are all ridden. They get unlimited haylage and big warm beds and I personally think they all look happier and calmer tucked up in the stable than out in the mud, p*ss wet through waiting to come in, or worse running around and chancing giving themselves an injury. My horses all showjump all year round and are fit and in work 6 days a week so I don't know if it maybe varies amongst horses in less work, older ones etc.


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## skint1 (26 October 2016)

cobgoblin said:



			Having just read the whole thread....it would appear that horse keeping in the future will be confined to the very rich.....haven't we been here before?
		
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Sadly, I agree, and I see signs of it gathering pace. By the 1980s it was already like that where I grew up (just outside New York City) unless you knew someone who maybe had a house with land/stables who'd there before land became very expensive and towns grew and zoning laws changed  (which we didnt). 

I guess it will please some people who feel strongly that DIY livery is not a good thing and the relative cheapness of keeping horses on DIY lends itself to irresponsibility and neglect.  I suspect there are just as many horses at high end yards where no expense is spared (by their owners anyway)  who don't get what they need either, but for different reasons.


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## milliepops (26 October 2016)

agree that many horses do cope, and indeed when I was  kid I had no winter turnout at all at one place, they were in from Nov to March   Probably what's at the root of my 'must ride every day' mentality 

But the OPs horses are semi retired and there is no school or walker available. It does sound like the OPs yard is not really suitable for them.


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## cobgoblin (26 October 2016)

There is a massive difference between show jumpers and dressage horses being kept in and worked every day and leisure horses with an owner that works full time.


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## Annagain (26 October 2016)

I don't think an hour a day is good enough. When we had one of ours on box rest he was getting 1/2 an hour hand walking morning and night so I'd consider an hour no better than that. 

We're very lucky at our yard. We have 24/7 turnout in summer and every day in winter with no restrictions. They even got out every day last winter when it rained every day from early December to the middle of March, except for 4 days at the end of January when it all froze. I think we were the only yard in the area where we managed this. I know all the others I know of who normally allow winter turnout were restricting it last year, but it was an exceptionally wet year (I hope!) even for S. Wales. The field was like soup so they weren't getting any grass, but they still got out for as long as we wanted. 

Our yard only has a maximum of 13 horses on about 55 acres (which they share with prize-winning show sheep) so we're lucky in that the fields are never over-grazed. YO inherited the farm and I'm not sure she could manage on these numbers if she also had a (probably sizeable) mortgage to pay. Having said that, it's entirely DIY so while there's maintenance etc that needs doing it's not a day in day out job and she only works part time so it obviously pays her enough to take enough of a salary from it to allow her to do this. 

While the fencing has always been looked after and the fields are as safe, this year is the first year where there's been proper investment in the yard for as long as I've been there (13 years). We've had the school topped up, road planings on all the tracks and the farm lane resurfaced. I don't think there's any reason it hasn't been done sooner, other than finances and while it's nice to have everything looking nice and new, I was never unhappy with the way things were. 

I pay a very reasonable £32 a week which includes haylage while they're in over the winter (technically £25 a week for 7 months of summer and £40 for 5 months of winter but it's evened out over the year) This has gone up gradually from £20 a week when I first arrived 13 years ago (although we had to pay £1 per half hour for the school then. Now it's included as people weren't being honest about using it) but is still very reasonable and I'd gladly pay more to ensure the set-up stays this way.


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## muddy_grey (26 October 2016)

cobgoblin said:



			There is a massive difference between show jumpers and dressage horses being kept in and worked every day and leisure horses with an owner that works full time.
		
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My horse is a SJ, but I am an owner who works full time, as do most of the liveries at my yard.  It doesn't matter if the horse is a grand prix horse or a leisure horse they can still be worked everyday.  Even if it is in hand, I see it as part of responsible horse ownership.  If there is no alternative in the area then you have to make it work.


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## Flame_ (26 October 2016)

muddy_grey said:



			My horse is a SJ, but I am an owner who works full time, as do most of the liveries at my yard.  It doesn't matter if the horse is a grand prix horse or a leisure horse they can still be worked everyday.  Even if it is in hand, I see it as part of responsible horse ownership.  If there is no alternative in the area then you have to make it work.
		
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This just is not true. It is far easier to keep an educated, fit, schooled horse on these big yards with all facilities and no turnout than it is happy hackers, babies, retirees, etc. If I have a horse whose health, age, work program and education coincide well with a lot of arena work, then I am content in the winter with a couple of hours turnout at one end of the day and an arena workout at the other. There are a lot of people and horses that this just does not suit and is not an option for, besides the fact in winter at 6.00pm, 25 or so liveries all decending on the arena on their over-fresh horses in the dark and pissing rain is, at best miserable, and at worst damn dangerous.


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## cobgoblin (26 October 2016)

muddy_grey said:



			My horse is a SJ, but I am an owner who works full time, as do most of the liveries at my yard.  It doesn't matter if the horse is a grand prix horse or a leisure horse they can still be worked everyday.  Even if it is in hand, I see it as part of responsible horse ownership.  If there is no alternative in the area then you have to make it work.
		
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Actually that's not really true. Not all yards have indoor schools, or even outdoor ones that are useable in winter...or a lunging pen...if you can't turn out, then you won't be able to lunge in the field
I suppose you could take your chances and hack out in the pitch black, ice, snow , floods......


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## paddi22 (26 October 2016)

We just came to accept that winters will be a lot longer, warmer and wetter from now on and installed an allweather small turnout paddock, so at least they all get out. I think yards need to adapt and fit in all weather tracks, walkers or turnout areas. No way is it fair to keep a horse trapped in a box all day. we did it when i was a kid but it was only hunters over winter who would have been exercised a lot anyways. I think the old way of winterout needs to be modified to cope with the change in weather and lack of land.


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## ycbm (26 October 2016)

cobgoblin said:



			Actually that's not really true. Not all yards have indoor schools, or even outdoor ones that are useable in winter...or a lunging pen...if you can't turn out, then you won't be able to lunge in the field
I suppose you could take your chances and hack out in the pitch black, ice, snow , floods......
		
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This is true. So I suppose what we come down to then is a very blunt question. Is it acceptable to keep horses in a stable for most of a 24 hour period without adequate exercise? Which also ties into what you would consider adequate exercise. For me, a horse walker is not adequate exercise and neither would the in hand work suggested above be. 

I'm a bit conflicted on this one. My gut feeling says no, but I know there are a lot of horses which seem perfectly happy living in a box most of the time. But I also know of a barefoot horse which I sold with very strong feet (I was eventing him) who spent one winter on very restricted turnout and inadequate work and blew his collateral ligaments the first time he got a gallop about on  his weakened feet after several days in.


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## SEL (26 October 2016)

Flame_ said:



			This just is not true. It is far easier to keep an educated, fit, schooled horse on these big yards with all facilities and no turnout than it is happy hackers, babies, retirees, etc. If I have a horse whose health, age, work program and education coincide well with a lot of arena work, then I am content in the winter with a couple of hours turnout at one end of the day and an arena workout at the other. There are a lot of people and horses that this just does not suit and is not an option for, besides the fact in winter at 6.00pm, 25 or so liveries all decending on the arena on their over-fresh horses in the dark and pissing rain is, at best miserable, and at worst damn dangerous.
		
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^^^^ this.

I have 2 horses who come out of their stables after 8-10 hours looking crippled. They both get exercised / horse walker every day even with 24 hour turnout, so I dread to think what state they'd be in if they only got 2 hours exercise a day & no turnout. As it stands I only bring them in if the weather is so miserable I think staying out would make their conditions worse.

Neither are the type that do well with pure arena work & one can't see in the dark, so that is a pretty limiting factor!

For me 365 day turnout is a must. I'm realistic & when we had floods last year they were both in for 2 days and we muddled through. Our horse walker flooded as well unfortunately & the hacking tracks were impassable. Not a week I remember fondly!


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## ljohnsonsj (26 October 2016)

muddy_grey said:



			My horse is a SJ, but I am an owner who works full time, as do most of the liveries at my yard.  It doesn't matter if the horse is a grand prix horse or a leisure horse they can still be worked everyday.  Even if it is in hand, I see it as part of responsible horse ownership.  If there is no alternative in the area then you have to make it work.
		
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Same again, full time job and 2 x showjumpers in work 1 x 3yo I'm currently breaking. In the OPs situation unless she can get her own place I think it's very much made do and make mend with what she has if other yards aren't suitable.


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## Damnation (26 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			This is true. So I suppose what we come down to then is a very blunt question. Is it acceptable to keep horses in a stable for most of a 24 hour period without adequate exercise? Which also ties into what you would consider adequate exercise. For me, a horse walker is not adequate exercise and neither would the in hand work suggested above be. 

I'm a bit conflicted on this one. My gut feeling says no, but I know there are a lot of horses which seem perfectly happy living in a box most of the time. But I also know of a barefoot horse which I sold with very strong feet (I was eventing him) who spent one winter on very restricted turnout and inadequate work and blew his collateral ligaments the first time he got a gallop about on  his weakened feet after several days in.
		
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Me too.

It is doable keeping horses in and I fully understand why it is done, land isn't cheap!

However, my mare doesn't cope well at all being in, overnight in a routine is fine but changes to her routine really upset her. She is never dangerous but when she is stressed she gets colitis. She would rather be out knee deep in mud and driving rain than in her stable and I fully believe as herd animals they need chance for a roll, a wander and a socialise for their own sanity's sake.


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## Goldenstar (26 October 2016)

Whats adequate 
If you have work ( an hour ) limited  turnout ( say two hours ) and the walker ( an hour ) 
I think horses need to two of those each day for it to be adequate not ideal by any strectch be they can get by on that .

I do think yards will need to rethink facilities and therefore the costs because you provide things like rolling pens hardstandings and the like without spending money and that has to be recovered in higher cost to the client .
If you live in the west which seems to be getting wetter and wetter this an issue that's very real .


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## Damnation (26 October 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Whats adequate 
If you have work ( an hour ) limited  turnout ( say two hours ) and the walker ( an hour ) 
I think horses need to two of those each day for it to be adequate not ideal by any strectch be they can get by on that .

I do think yards will need to rethink facilities and therefore the costs because you provide things like rolling pens hardstandings and the like without spending money and that has to be recovered in higher cost to the client .
If you live in the west which seems to be getting wetter and wetter this an issue that's very real .
		
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Definately.

I am happy to pay if I knew the yard had facilities that got horses out of their stables in winter. Whether that is 3-4 day a week turnout, or small turnout pens or a horse walker etc.


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## Peregrine Falcon (26 October 2016)

I thank my lucky stars I am fortunate to share fields with a friend.  We rent a parcel of land with a barn and stables but all ours live out 24/7 and we do a lot of field/fence maintenance ourselves. Yes we have had mud issues in the wettest weather but it has recovered.  

I personally like my ponies to live as they like, i.e. outside with access to shelter when needed.  I wouldn't want to restrict them to grazing so in answer to the original post, I do feel for you but perhaps a weekend surveying the local area and asking other riders if they know of any grazing may help?  I hope you find somewhere more suitable.


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## be positive (26 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			This is true. So I suppose what we come down to then is a very blunt question. Is it acceptable to keep horses in a stable for most of a 24 hour period without adequate exercise? Which also ties into what you would consider adequate exercise. For me, a horse walker is not adequate exercise and neither would the in hand work suggested above be. 
.
		
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I think there is a huge difference between keeping horses in a professional competition yard where they will be fully exercised during the day, possibly getting out several times even if it is only to be on a walker as an extra leg stretch in the afternoons, they will be groomed, maybe get a pick of grass at some point, have people and horses coming and going all day, and a full DIY yard where everyone works full time, no one is around all day and the horses are done in the dark at either end of the working day, even with the best of intentions the horse probably will not get sufficient exercise 5 days a week, they may fare better at the weekend, so these are the yards that do need to provide turnout every day or have a contingency in place. 

I don't think it fair for any horse, other than one on box rest, to be shut in for 24 hours with a quick lunge or some in hand work being all the exercise they get, and to me a walker is an additional exercise not the only exercise, we wouldn't keep a dog with so little exercise and if a yard cannot provide somewhere for a proper exercise or turnout then they should not be offering or getting liveries. 

I try not to restrict turn out too much, the odd day in if weather really bad, I think they were kept in one day last winter, most are ready to come in after lunch and as I am around I usually start bringing them in before they complain too much as it saves the fields, the school is well draining so fit for use in all but a very hard frost.

Going back to the OP no I don't think 1 hour per day is enough and I don't see how the average person can turn out for 1 hour if they are working full time, so will it be 1 hour or will it be the time the owner is there at one end of the day, horse turned out for the time it takes to do a stable etc for most that will be no more than 30 mins by the time they get out and come back in it will be hardly worth it.


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## Annagain (26 October 2016)

Flame_ said:



			This just is not true. It is far easier to keep an educated, fit, schooled horse on these big yards with all facilities and no turnout than it is happy hackers, babies, retirees, etc. If I have a horse whose health, age, work program and education coincide well with a lot of arena work, then I am content in the winter with a couple of hours turnout at one end of the day and an arena workout at the other. There are a lot of people and horses that this just does not suit and is not an option for, besides the fact in winter at 6.00pm, 25 or so liveries all decending on the arena on their over-fresh horses in the dark and pissing rain is, at best miserable, and at worst damn dangerous.
		
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This. We have a 20x40 outdoor with one very basic floodlight that lights up about 2/3rd of the school properly and the rest just enough for it not to be dangerous. Our yard is small enough (and has enough people who work different hours) that access isn't an issue, but I have 2 20yr old horses who can't go in the school too often due to various issues. The roads around our yard are used as a rat run so hacking out before work is too dangerous.  They're really busy with drivers who don't expect to see a horse (or don't care) from 7am onwards. Apart from these restrictions, even if I was the most committed rider, life gets in the way and makes riding every day impossible  I work long hours in a job that is quite unpredictable. Some days I can go in early at 6am especially so I can get away by 4 and still not get out until 7-8pm if something kicks off. On a good day, I start at 8.30 - 9 and finish at 6. I also have a dog that needs walking and a husband who does like to see me now and again. This is why guaranteed turnout is so important to me so I'm not under pressure to HAVE to exercise every day.


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## junglefairy (26 October 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Whats adequate 
If you have work ( an hour ) limited  turnout ( say two hours ) and the walker ( an hour ) 
I think horses need to two of those each day for it to be adequate not ideal by any strectch be they can get by on that .

I do think yards will need to rethink facilities and therefore the costs because you provide things like rolling pens hardstandings and the like without spending money and that has to be recovered in higher cost to the client .
If you live in the west which seems to be getting wetter and wetter this an issue that's very real .
		
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Turnout is not just about movement though; it's about the horse having time to graze in a natural way, groom and interact with other horses etc. I don't think a ride and time on a horse walker is any kind of substitute. There are significant mental and physical issues associated with not providing sufficient turnout. I'm genuinely astonished what people will put up with.

I'm in the SE, very close to London, and have 24/7 turnout year round. We're very lucky, but I also couldn't live with the guilt if my horse didn't get at least full day turnout in winter.


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## Goldenstar (26 October 2016)

Everybody would like all day turnout aviable all the time but it's just not for lots of people .
I am lucky my horses live at home and I can turnout whenever I choose .


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## milliepops (26 October 2016)

junglefairy said:



			Turnout is not just about movement though; it's about the horse having time to graze in a natural way, groom and interact with other horses etc. I don't think a ride and time on a horse walker is any kind of substitute. There are significant mental and physical issues associated with not providing sufficient turnout. I'm genuinely astonished what people will put up with.
		
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well, in an ideal world it would be but even in many yards that say they offer daily turnout this isn't the case... my horses are in individual paddocks, and one has little to no grass to pick at this time of year... if I could hay outdoors then they'd stay out longer quite happily but they are now pleased to be caught in the afternoon.

I agree in principle; in practice I won't put my old girl in with another horse because she's too fragile, and my younger one will knock 7 bells out of anything else 

In compensation they have well aired stables with views of other horses, ad lib forage fed from the ground and plenty of ridden exercise.  Everything is a compromise in life.  When the oldie gets too creaky for this routine I will seek out some grass livery for her and she will retire.


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## honetpot (26 October 2016)

Flame_ said:



			This just is not true. It is far easier to keep an educated, fit, schooled horse on these big yards with all facilities and no turnout than it is happy hackers, babies, retirees, etc. If I have a horse whose health, age, work program and education coincide well with a lot of arena work, then I am content in the winter with a couple of hours turnout at one end of the day and an arena workout at the other. There are a lot of people and horses that this just does not suit and is not an option for, besides the fact in winter at 6.00pm, 25 or so liveries all decending on the arena on their over-fresh horses in the dark and pissing rain is, at best miserable, and at worst damn dangerous.
		
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When I was younger and I had a bit more oomph, I did not drive and the yard where I kept my horse was on the edge of High Peak, so they were in from October to April. My solution was to bring him home and he lived in the garage at the side of a semidetached house in the winter, I worked full time and I rode five days a week through double decker buses to get to the moor with a gallop once a week through the wood. I rode in snow, rain and wind, I didn't have a school, horse walker or even the edge of  a flat farmers field, because I had looked after hunters it was an hour and a half solid road work( there wasn't anywhere else), a lot at trot. I hopped on him on the drive an we were straight on to the road that went past the supermarket and the chippy. 
 In Newmarket most of the horses have no turnout, the bigger yards have a horse walker, or a round pen but many do not and some are straight out onto Newmarket High street.
  When we moved to somewhere more rural it was the same, no turnout in winter, perhaps an hour on a concrete yard, so when I rode he was worked, but even that was mostly road work, no school etc. It is hard work but it is possible you have to decide what is essential.
  I think as long as there is somewhere, it doesn't have to be a field, for them to have an itch, roll, play and eat they are not really bothered, most of them are easily pleased thank goodness.


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## meleeka (26 October 2016)

junglefairy said:



			Turnout is not just about movement though; it's about the horse having time to graze in a natural way,
		
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 That's a whole other thread! 

There's nothing remotely natural about the way many horses are kept. I'd rather have individual turnout than in a large, unstable herd, but neither are perfect.

For those that aren't allowed hay in fields. What is the reason given?


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## Annagain (26 October 2016)

meleeka said:



			That's a whole other thread! 

There's nothing remotely natural about the way many horses are kept. I'd rather have individual turnout than in a large, unstable herd, but neither are perfect.

For those that aren't allowed hay in fields. What is the reason given?
		
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On our yard it's to prevent squabbling over it, although I think they probably squabble more at the gate at coming in time because they're bored and hungry. The herds are actually very stable and settled so I don't think they would fight over it, they all know their place and generally sort things out without too much disagreement.


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## hairycob (26 October 2016)

Re what liveries are prepared to pay & stocking levels. I used to be at a yard where there were a max of 7 horses - YO used to have more but as liveries we decided to split the cost of spaces between us as they came up to improve the turnout. We already paid top rate (before the extra) for DIY in the area despite having no arena but because the turnover was good with the restricted numbers we were happy. We got in our own hay, sorted our own fences etc, it was very DIY. Worked great until the YO decided to retire & another member of the family took over. Within a few weeks there were 16 horses on the yard as they were dabbling in (bottom end) dealing. 10 was really pushing the grazing, never mind the biosecurity issues. That was one of the major reasons why 3 months down the line they lost the lot of us on 1 day. There were other issues but they all had the same root in their attitude to horses & customers. So it's not always stingy liveries that are at fault.


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## paddy555 (26 October 2016)

junglefairy said:



			Turnout is not just about movement though; it's about the horse having time to graze in a natural way, groom and interact with other horses etc. I don't think a ride and time on a horse walker is any kind of substitute. There are significant mental and physical issues associated with not providing sufficient turnout. I'm genuinely astonished what people will put up with.

I'm in the SE, very close to London, and have 24/7 turnout year round. We're very lucky, but I also couldn't live with the guilt if my horse didn't get at least full day turnout in winter.
		
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I agree. Time on the walker or being exercised is what the human wants. What about what the horse wants? Standing in a nice deep bed with lots of hay is great overnight when it is pissing down and I am sure the horse is grateful. It is not so nice when he is doing it for 22 hours a day week after week. I would question if that is an acceptable way to keep a horse.


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## paddi22 (26 October 2016)

yeah i agree, i think if i was stuck in a yard with limited turnout (and the horse wasn't in medium/heavy work) then i'd prefer to turn the horse away 24/7 on grass livery over winter, even if it was a distance away.


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## HashRouge (26 October 2016)

The fact the YO is in the High Peak and mentions a yard with a track system makes me think I know exactly where she is. If it's where I think, it is particularly bad for winter turnout due to the soil type. There are definitely one or two yards in that area that have decent winter turnout - as far as I know, one of them is grass livery and horses are out all winter. However, there are better options for livery if you go slightly further into the National Park.


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## Ponio_lover (26 October 2016)

Reading this thread I seem to be at the only yard in the NW without 24/7 turnout in summer!!! However we do get daily turnout nearly 365 days a year. Sometimes I feel a bit sad when she's coming in a 4pm on a nice summers day, however it more than makes up for it that we don't get half the year out, then half the year stuck in. 
I couldn't be without winter turnout, even if it's just half a day in winter. 
And for anyone wondering she's on full livery as I work away. I need the turnout for both our sakes!


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## rachk89 (26 October 2016)

I love my yard. 24/7 turnout 6 months of the year, restricted the other 6 (winter months obviously). Most horses come in at night over winter but there aren't enough stables for all so some stay out. Fields seem to cope well but we are far north so they freeze more often than flood. It's one of the more expensive places in the area but by far the best. Proper fences rather than the flimsy electric ones. Nice stables inside a barn. Outdoor arena that is floodlit and small indoor. The YO does prefer people aren't there too late as otherwise you disturb the horses (it's odd actually how shocked they are to see a person after hours didn't think they would mind so much) but otherwise no restrictions. People do complain but really I think they are silly problems that they generally do forget about. We are luckier than most in the area I saw all of the other places and would not put my horse anywhere else. Thank god they haven't made us leave yet thanks to the horses antics (they love his weirdness really).

I wouldn't put him somewhere where turnout was restricted. He would hate it to be honest and be really bored. He would put up with it ok I guess he wouldn't go mental but he would be depressed. At the last place he didn't get turnout for a few days one time because it was really icy so dangerous to take them to the fields. They just let them out into the outdoor arena with 1 other horse for a run around and they all took it in turns. It was the best the yard could do in the circumstances I wouldn't have wanted any of them to walk up the icy hill just to go into the fields it was too dangerous for them.


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## Boulty (26 October 2016)

I'm West Yorks and I have the same issues re finding yards that allow daily winter turnouts whose fields aren't absolute mudbaths  (I don't mind a bit but when over half the field is getting on for knee deep due to too many horses in too small a space on clay soil I feel that is taking the pee!) and who will also feed hay when the grass runs out!    I think as many say the issue is that people are finding they have to overstock to some degree if they want to make money (less of an issue if the yard is more of a hobby / the owner just wants a few horses as company for their own as in these situations covering of upkeep costs seem acceptable)   

This is gonna cause some eye rolling but in the last few years I've taken my horse barefoot (due to injury) and become aware of the concept of track systems and providing turnout on  hardcore / concrete topped with surfaces such as pea gravel, woodchip or road planings.   I happen to think that in wet and poorly draining areas (or even just areas where there are too many horses for the land) this could be an excellent solution.  Doesn't need to be madly expensive once the groundwork is done depending on how basic or complicated you want to make it and how big an area (and a lot of yard owners know someone who knows someone with a digger / tractor) although does of course require the commitment to feed hay whilst horses are in there! I guess it is a large initial outlay but then so is an arena and a lot of yards are happy to invest in that... Really really hoping that this is a concept that eventually does catch on (esp if things continue to get wetter!) 

I also agree that a lot of yards seem scared of charging properly in case of people leaving.

Re costs... I'd pay in the region of £50 a week for DIY with 24/7 t/o year round as long as horse has access to shelter and some hardstanding and I'd be happy to pay extra on top when hay is needed and of course buy own feed and assist with poo picking and such.  (I'd pay a little less for stabled durign day but guaranteed t/o as I'd need to factor bedding costs in) I'd pay up to £100 per week for full grass livery year round (ie horse is looked after and fed and rugs changed, hay included and given as needed, all field maintenance done by owner of yard) with the same stipulations as above.    I'd go a little higher for  surfaced track system / surfaced turnout pens.   Slight awkwardness if that my horse needs to come off grass during day in Spring / Summer but a trashed bit of field / a shelter that can be shut off would achieve this if no stable...


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## be positive (26 October 2016)

Boulty you sound like a very realistic owner, if you want to move to Somerset you can have full grass livery all year, with a stable available for your use at any time, a restricted area in the summer would be no problem as long as your horse is happy in with one or two others, I don't really like individual turnout unless it is absolutely essential and always have an unshod fatty that will be happy to share.


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## Auslander (26 October 2016)

Boulty said:



			I'd pay up to £100 per week for full grass livery year round (ie horse is looked after and fed and rugs changed, hay included and given as needed, all field maintenance done by owner of yard) with the same stipulations as above.    I'd go a little higher for  surfaced track system / surfaced turnout pens.   Slight awkwardness if that my horse needs to come off grass during day in Spring / Summer but a trashed bit of field / a shelter that can be shut off would achieve this if no stable...
		
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I have all the above (minus the track system), plus two schools, and good hacking, but I can't get anywhere near that for full grass livery, so I can't make the improvements I'd like to make to the land itself. It's a catch 22 situation!


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## DD (26 October 2016)

HashRouge said:



			The fact the YO is in the High Peak and mentions a yard with a track system makes me think I know exactly where she is. If it's where I think, it is particularly bad for winter turnout due to the soil type. There are definitely one or two yards in that area that have decent winter turnout - as far as I know, one of them is grass livery and horses are out all winter. However, there are better options for livery if you go slightly further into the National Park.
		
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Is that Cown Edge?


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## SatansLittleHelper (27 October 2016)

Mine lives out 24/7 thank god!!! I'm lucky enough to rent land a stones throw from my house... £65 pcm month for 5 acres, large field shelter, storage shed and incredibly well maintained fencing/land.
OP I really feel for your situation
There is no way on Earth I would be happy for my horse to be stabled 23 hours a day. I may get shot down for this but I genuinely believe that for the average horse/exercise regieme this is bloody cruel..!!!
If someone put their dog in a cage 23 hours a day there would be an uproar...I don't see why horses should be any different


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## mytwofriends (27 October 2016)

We rent a little yard with 4 acres that we can manage as we wish. Only 3 horses. They're currently still out at night, in for an hour for breakfast and a haynet, and will stay that way until the end of November (or whenever we decide.) And then they'll go out every single day all winter long. If the weather is foul beyond belief and we decide they may prefer a day in - well that's up to us. 

After being on a diabolical yard a few years ago that restricted turnout to one hour per day in winter (and that was more than fetlock deep in liquid mud, so no grass at all to pick at), and having my elderly horse break his stable door down in frustration, which was totally out of character - not to mention health issues such as his arthritis and swollen sheath - there's no way on earth I'd revert to that setup. I'd honestly rather not own a horse.


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## Jingley (27 October 2016)

Wow i feel really happy, i rent 2 acres DIY, have 2 horses on their with field shelters and they live out 24/7 all year round; £120 PCM inc of poop pile removal, fencing, electric and water. I would not be happy with mine being in all that time. I do live in the East so its a bit more sandy. I would have thought up North there was an abundance of land, whenever i go on holiday that way im always amazed at how rural it is and how many fields there are so im surprised places are overstocked. Without knowing the area well, could you look for somewhere that prehaps isnt a yard, maybe someone who has some fields or a farmer who dosent have horses and see if you could rent a few acres and manage it yourself. Instead of looking for another yard??


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## HashRouge (27 October 2016)

Downton Dame said:



			Is that Cown Edge?
		
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Yes that's the area I'm thinking of, and the surrounding villages.


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## Starzaan (27 October 2016)

Maesfen said:



			Right - Rant time and I won't be sorry to those I offend; sorry and all that!

I totally agree with Theocat, Elsielouise, Honetpot and others in the same vein.

People who want DIY or any other type of livery just do not have any idea of the running costs of having that sort of yard but think their £15 a week entitles them to everything they demand without any restrictions.  By the same token, people who opened yards accepting too many horses for their land without doing their homework from both the financial POV and the toll it would take on their land are also delusional idiots.
Cheap and horses are not words that fit in one sentence; it just can't happen.  If it is cheap, it will be rubbish and it's exactly the same when looking for livery.  
Cheap livery will not be able to supply your needs for very long without having to make changes whether that means fencing failing badly, supplying (and charging) for extra hay when the grass has gone or restricting grazing at wet times of the year; even worse if you require someone to do jobs in your place.  If a horse is stabled and turned out, you want those jobs and associated ones (mucking out, bedding down, feeding, filling haynets, changing rugs, picking out feet, turning out, catching in and so on) it's going to be at least 1 hour of time during the day spent on that horse; minimum wage is £7 ?? so that's an extra £35 a week at least on top of your grazing/stable costs alone; you can't expect it done for nothing.
Again, by the same token, you can't expect yard owners to allow all of their fields to be trashed during wet weather without some restrictions in place else the land is ruined, there'd be no grass for the next year and then you'd be moaning too.  Weather has to be taken into account plus the type of land and the stocking rates too.  Ideally, a 40 horse yard would need at least 80 acres to do the job properly so if the stocking rate is too dense you just know that will lead to problems when the weather is bad; whether that be by restricted turnout or whatever.  It's up to you to do your homework for every season (including things like unprecedented rainfall which is common in the north west)  Everything costs and in fairness to most decent livery owners, it shouldn't be them footing the whole bill from their own pocket, the livery charges should allow for all maintenance costs such as rolling, harrowing, repairs, hedgecutting and general upkeep let alone something so trivial as towards a wage of some sort.  Most livery owners live on site, it's their home too so to a certain extent it needs to be run for their convenience too especially if there are common entrances and the house is on the yard, not tucked away from it.  I wouldn't want anyone knocking about at 6am either unless it was a one off for a vet, cubbing or a show or at the other end of the day either; they deserve some quiet time and your cheap livery is certainly not a reason to expect access all hours as a right.

Put simply - If you aren't prepared to pay a decent price for livery of any type, then don't have a horse at all.  Don't expect others to subsidise your hobby and then complain about it.  
You'd be the one complaining if you were in the YO's shoes, believe me.  I totally agree that livery yard owners need to be realistic in their expectations too, to not over stock, provide decent grazing, fences and so on, but don't blame them if they try to protect their property (no amount of livery will cover the damage caused) by placing fair restrictions when necessary.  
Until it's your property, you don't have a say in the matter so if you don't like it, vote with your feet.
		
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Absolutely this. People just don't seem to understand how much a livery yard costs to run. I have run my own yard and am now head girl on a very busy livery yard and riding school and I will never understand people who complain about realistic livery prices.

ETA - I don't in any way mean to offend or be rude, but I can't even imagine being on a salary anywhere near £40k. I am on almost half that and can afford to have my nightmare youngster on full livery to try and sort out his behaviour. Granted, it's not £800 a month but it's not far off, and I just have to make sacrifices elsewhere. The idea of a salary of £40k is the stuff of dreams for me!


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## sport horse (27 October 2016)

I am bemused. Liveries all want lots of turnout because it is  not natural for a horse to be in a stable for large amounts of time (even if the horse is exercised and on a good dry bed out of the wet weather.  It seems this is cruel.

The majority want individual turnout for most of the day at least. 

So, their horse is probably in a small paddock fenced with electric fence from its neighbours, probably no hedge or trees for shelter. No friend to nibble and pass the time of day. Quite possibly nothing left to graze as the land is used for horses 12 months of the year. Turned out at whatever time of day the owner can fit in and brought in again at whatever time of day fits. The other horses are similarly brought in/put out at random times.

I know what I think is good horsemanship.


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## Spottyappy (27 October 2016)

sport horse said:



			I am bemused. Liveries all want lots of turnout because it is  not natural for a horse to be in a stable for large amounts of time (even if the horse is exercised and on a good dry bed out of the wet weather.  It seems this is cruel.

The majority want individual turnout for most of the day at least. 

So, their horse is probably in a small paddock fenced with electric fence from its neighbours, probably no hedge or trees for shelter. No friend to nibble and pass the time of day. Quite possibly nothing left to graze as the land is used for horses 12 months of the year. Turned out at whatever time of day the owner can fit in and brought in again at whatever time of day fits. The other horses are similarly brought in/put out at random times.

I know what I think is good horsemanship.
		
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How I agree. Not sure when turnout in a herd morphed into individual turnout, but it is the most unnatural way of keeping a horse I have encountered.
I also think people do not realise the cost of maintaining a yard of any kind to a good standard. Not to mention the ever increasing cost of insurance. 
I have my own private yard, thankfully. Just me and my daughter.
My horses are out 24/7 when ground conditions allow. If fields get very boggy, they are in at night and out by day. I have had 6 days in the last 4/5 years when I have not turned out and that has been due to high winds ripping off my neighbours barn roof and dangerous parts of it randomly flying round. He's not great at doing repairs, or those days would have been fewer!


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## Damnation (27 October 2016)

sport horse said:



			I am bemused. Liveries all want lots of turnout because it is  not natural for a horse to be in a stable for large amounts of time (even if the horse is exercised and on a good dry bed out of the wet weather.  It seems this is cruel.

The majority want individual turnout for most of the day at least. 

So, their horse is probably in a small paddock fenced with electric fence from its neighbours, probably no hedge or trees for shelter. No friend to nibble and pass the time of day. Quite possibly nothing left to graze as the land is used for horses 12 months of the year. Turned out at whatever time of day the owner can fit in and brought in again at whatever time of day fits. The other horses are similarly brought in/put out at random times.

I know what I think is good horsemanship.
		
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I do not agree with individual turnout either.

Mine is out in a mixed herd, pleanty of shelter around the field including trees and hedgerow, daily turnout and a round feeder of hay in the field.

Reading this I realise I am so lucky to have found my current yard.

I will never leave.

One of the most expensive yards in my area only do half day turnout all year round and only in individual paddocks. Even if you have 2 horses they go in their own paddocks. I had no issue paying the price at all and the land is good, I'd be happy to have her in year round especially for the facilities, but my horse having no "mates" just seems incredibly unnatural to me.


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## skint1 (27 October 2016)

My horse is not on individual turnout, he has a nice field which he currently shares with one other horse, it has a hill, it has high ground and low ground , it has trees, it has grass of varying greenness. I often drive by a yard that has those little postage stamp paddocks with no shelter or variety, I feel sorry for them but I know the type of livery I have is harder to come by these days so people have to do the best they can. I am grateful for my yard, and I hope I never have to leave.  I'd pay more to stay there if I had to as well.


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## windand rain (27 October 2016)

I rent a bit of land on sandy soil and it never gets muddy but if I had to keep my ponies in for more than 12 hours at a push I wouldnt own them
 Mind you mine live in a stable herd are out 24/7 are happy and wouldnt thank you for a stable the only time you see one near a shelter is when it is hot they are always grazing in the open when you see them no matter how bad the weather. I do think to a point that horse ownership is too cheap they are as cheap to buy as a couple or three lessons. If you then get cheap livery people will buy too soon to avoid lesson costs especially if a whole family want to ride and the resultant crueltiy through ignorance is compounded
Yes I do think keeping a horse in an individual paddock, or a stable is cruel it is unnatural and totally unnecessary. If you cannot provide the seven lifestyle needs for your horse you shouldn own one regardless of cost


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## Cortez (27 October 2016)

Being able to turn horses out, whatever the time of year, is dependant on the state of the ground. If it becomes too wet then it cannot be used, nothing to do with "banning" turnout, just it becoming impossible.

If people are not capable of providing sufficient exercise for their horses, then perhaps they should reconsider owning them? Keeping horses in 23 or 24 hours a day IS cruel; so get them out for exercise: simple.

Oh, and putting them in bare patches barely bigger than a stable, alone, is hardly "turn out".


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## Merlod (27 October 2016)

I think because high end yards value facilities over turnout. The horses go in the school/lunge pen/walker everyday, sometimes they get a couple of hours out in the summer in a small individual paddock and in the winter all turnout is stopped. 

Low end and very basic DIY yards don&#8217;t often have facilities so can&#8217;t charge high prices to make their money and thus the owners (often ex farmers in my experience) will just cram as many horses as they possibly can on the yard to make money. This often results in terrible ground conditions, &#8220;turf wars&#8221; among liveries and usually turnout being heavily restricted or stopped.

I am very lucky that I have my own yard, my horses live out in a herd, rotated between two big hill fields and only ever come in overnight during the winter.


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## Damnation (27 October 2016)

Cortez said:



			Being able to turn horses out, whatever the time of year, is dependant on the state of the ground. If it becomes too wet then it cannot be used, nothing to do with "banning" turnout, just it becoming impossible.

If people are not capable of providing sufficient exercise for their horses, then perhaps they should reconsider owning them? Keeping horses in 23 or 24 hours a day IS cruel; so get them out for exercise: simple.

Oh, and putting them in bare patches barely bigger than a stable, alone, is hardly "turn out".
		
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Its striking the balance.

You need to do best by your horse, but at the same time when you work 40 hours a week full time, exercising even for 2-3 hours a day isn't feesable, and to me isn't enough either. Not everyone is lucky enough to be around all day in order to facilitate the horses being in constantly but at the same time land is not cheap and sometimes it doesn't recover very well.

Something does need to change I think. Yards need to realise that horses need *something* whether that is surfaced turnout pens or other alternatives as a huge amount of their client base will be working people that simply do not have the time to grass walk their horse and ride for 3-4 hours a day minimum to get them out of their stables and sufficiently exercised.

That same client base also need to be prepared to pay in order for these facilities to be created in the first place.


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## paddi22 (27 October 2016)

Spottyappy said:



			Not sure when turnout in a herd morphed into individual turnout, but it is the most unnatural way of keeping a horse I have encountered.
		
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it's awful and its just becoming more and more common. From chatting to yards who do it, one or two seemed to start because of liveries complaining about horses being bullied, kicked, uncatchable, too many rug tears. Or that it was too hard/dangerous to bring in with a group of horses around a gate. A few just said it was easier and less hassle for them to just seperate them out and have owners just interact with their horses.

The others seemed to do it as its easier to rotate and manage small seperate paddocks instead of one massive field. 

it's definitely a step down in horse welfare though.


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## milliepops (27 October 2016)

Individual turnout does have its place. Previously I would have been as militant as others against it. Now, I simply dare not turn Millie out with another horse... to do so will effectively write her off and I'm not prepared to do that yet.  
I've had enough catastrophic field injuries to last me a lifetime.  I'd dearly love to pop her out with a herd in a big natural field, but the inevitable rumpus that would follow will be the end for her.  When we approach the end, then we can give it a go but I will have to be prepared to pts when one of the compromised legs gives up for good.  As it is, she's back in work and feeling very chirpy so it feels totally wrong not to give her the best chance now.

I do hate the boring featureless paddocks, it's not how I kept my ponies as a kid but the horses don't appear to be suffering.  They snuffle through the hedge, watch the comings and goings and get on with grazing.


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## paddi22 (27 October 2016)

as regards liveries having to work 40 hours+ days and not being able to exercise a horse enough, should there be an onus on the owner to hire someone to give horses adequate exercise, similar to how people get dog walkers? just musing!


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## milliepops (27 October 2016)

Actually, thinking about it, Kira is happier in the open fields (that I consider boring) than she ever was in bigger fields with more variety (woodland, trees etc). She's definitely harking back to the steppes, she likes to be able to see everything around her and gets very worried by enclosed spaces or spooky trees.  Horses for courses


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## Amye (27 October 2016)

Damnation said:



			Its striking the balance.

You need to do best by your horse, but at the same time when you work 40 hours a week full time, exercising even for 2-3 hours a day isn't feesable, and to me isn't enough either. Not everyone is lucky enough to be around all day in order to facilitate the horses being in constantly but at the same time land is not cheap and sometimes it doesn't recover very well.

Something does need to change I think. Yards need to realise that horses need *something* whether that is surfaced turnout pens or other alternatives as a huge amount of their client base will be working people that simply do not have the time to grass walk their horse and ride for 3-4 hours a day minimum to get them out of their stables and sufficiently exercised.

That same client base also need to be prepared to pay in order for these facilities to be created in the first place.
		
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Agree with this completely.

I'm lucky that my boy is out during the day in winter. However I would be happy to pay more if the yard advised that they needed more to maintain that level of turnout. 


I'm another not happy with the individual turnout that some yards seem to do. I like my horse to be able to go out and interact and graze with other horses in a herd. We have a herd of 4,they all get on well and there's no bullying as it's a pretty stable herd IMO. I've seen them snoozing together, playing together, grooming and grazing and it's lovely to watch them just being horses


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## Mongoose11 (27 October 2016)

I'd also be willing to pay a premium for the option of full grass livery but I wouldn't pay £100 a week; I would stretch to £70 though. 

At the moment my horse has individual turnout because she is not comfortable with the company of other horses. I would love her to have a pony friend but anything the same size or bigger makes her very uncomfortable. She has the opportunity to talk/play/scratch with others over the fence but she never has and other horses certainly take the opportunity with others. 

To everyone who talks of herd turn out as being ideal and 'natural', there is nothing natural about a herd where horses come and go as individuals all day, disappear for whole days and sometimes weekends or weeks! That is not a natural, settled herd at all. 

I'm very lucky to have winter turnout but I want more. My mare is 16 and eventually I'd like her to have the option of 24/7 turnout. Where we are she will get 7-8 hours a day for the absolute majority of the winter months. Occasionally we have a few days in here and there but that can't be helped. 

I have about 1.5 acres and she has lived on that very happily for two years. I section it in half in July and let it grow for the winter and she starts eating that around now. I am on clay but her field is not a problem because turn out is restricted when it's wet. If it wasn't or she was in a group, I can only imagine it would be truly awful.

It seems I'm looking for the impossible but my ideal would be 1-2 acres with part of it as hard standing so she would be on that during the night in Winter, free to move around and eat from hay stations. I can dream! 

Anyone who thinks they should be entitled to anything more than a trash paddock for £25 a week is deluded.


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## skint1 (27 October 2016)

I am really enjoying this thread, it is interesting to read and understand the experience of others.


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## Luci07 (27 October 2016)

Don't be so quick to dismiss people who want or should I say need indivudual turnout for their horses. On our very small yard, we have a stallion and 2 late cut geldings. Both those geldings have to have individual turnout and the same fencing as the stallion. While both horses are nice to handle, they are a kicking, rug ripping pain in the a**e for us other horse owners. My gelding is big but really soft and the others were the same. We tried, but there is a limit to just how many times you will accept your horse coming in wth yet another injury. My own horse craves and loves equine company though has put up with being the only one in during the day but that is balanced by his love of feed and sleep!


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## Kathy657 (27 October 2016)

At our yard which is clay, they have to restrict turn out in the winter. They are still out at the moment, but the horses are desperate to come back in after a couple of hours. They start hanging around the gate and running up and down. None of them enjoy being out all day.
It makes me smile when people say it's cruel to have them in 24/7. What's worse ? Being out from maybe 7 am hardly any grass in the pouring rain or a nice dry stable with ad lib haylage?  I know what ours prefer.


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## easteregg (27 October 2016)

I am a long time lurker on this forum but thought I would take the plunge today and actually post something!

This is a very interesting thread and has made me realise that I'm very lucky with my livery yard as we have all year round, 24/7 turnout.  Although parts of the fields are generally fairly trashed by the end of winter, they are very well maintained and recover quickly in the spring.  Owners are given their own field with some horses on individual turnout, some sharing (through choice) and of course some people have more than one horse anyway. Its a big yard - I have about 3 acres for my horse and 2 small ponies. We are allowed to erect field shelters if we wish and I've certainly noticed that over the past few years that there are fewer and fewer horses being brought in and stabled at night.  Having had one of my horses on box rest for the last week, I just don't know how he or I would cope with very limited turnout! I appreciate that we can only do our best, and some situations are far from ideal, but I really struggle with the concept of stabling horses for the majority of the time (medical reasons aside)


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## ribbons (27 October 2016)

Maesfen said:



			Right - Rant time and I won't be sorry to those I offend; sorry and all that!

I totally agree with Theocat, Elsielouise, Honetpot and others in the same vein.

People who want DIY or any other type of livery just do not have any idea of the running costs of having that sort of yard but think their £15 a week entitles them to everything they demand without any restrictions.  By the same token, people who opened yards accepting too many horses for their land without doing their homework from both the financial POV and the toll it would take on their land are also delusional idiots.
Cheap and horses are not words that fit in one sentence; it just can't happen.  If it is cheap, it will be rubbish and it's exactly the same when looking for livery.  
Cheap livery will not be able to supply your needs for very long without having to make changes whether that means fencing failing badly, supplying (and charging) for extra hay when the grass has gone or restricting grazing at wet times of the year; even worse if you require someone to do jobs in your place.  If a horse is stabled and turned out, you want those jobs and associated ones (mucking out, bedding down, feeding, filling haynets, changing rugs, picking out feet, turning out, catching in and so on) it's going to be at least 1 hour of time during the day spent on that horse; minimum wage is £7 ?? so that's an extra £35 a week at least on top of your grazing/stable costs alone; you can't expect it done for nothing.
Again, by the same token, you can't expect yard owners to allow all of their fields to be trashed during wet weather without some restrictions in place else the land is ruined, there'd be no grass for the next year and then you'd be moaning too.  Weather has to be taken into account plus the type of land and the stocking rates too.  Ideally, a 40 horse yard would need at least 80 acres to do the job properly so if the stocking rate is too dense you just know that will lead to problems when the weather is bad; whether that be by restricted turnout or whatever.  It's up to you to do your homework for every season (including things like unprecedented rainfall which is common in the north west)  Everything costs and in fairness to most decent livery owners, it shouldn't be them footing the whole bill from their own pocket, the livery charges should allow for all maintenance costs such as rolling, harrowing, repairs, hedgecutting and general upkeep let alone something so trivial as towards a wage of some sort.  Most livery owners live on site, it's their home too so to a certain extent it needs to be run for their convenience too especially if there are common entrances and the house is on the yard, not tucked away from it.  I wouldn't want anyone knocking about at 6am either unless it was a one off for a vet, cubbing or a show or at the other end of the day either; they deserve some quiet time and your cheap livery is certainly not a reason to expect access all hours as a right.

Put simply - If you aren't prepared to pay a decent price for livery of any type, then don't have a horse at all.  Don't expect others to subsidise your hobby and then complain about it.  
You'd be the one complaining if you were in the YO's shoes, believe me.  I totally agree that livery yard owners need to be realistic in their expectations too, to not over stock, provide decent grazing, fences and so on, but don't blame them if they try to protect their property (no amount of livery will cover the damage caused) by placing fair restrictions when necessary.  
Until it's your property, you don't have a say in the matter so if you don't like it, vote with your feet.
		
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Agree with every word. 
I have stables standing empty and land that now has sheep on. The only equines i'll have here now are my own.


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## Cortez (27 October 2016)

paddi22 said:



			as regards liveries having to work 40 hours+ days and not being able to exercise a horse enough, should there be an onus on the owner to hire someone to give horses adequate exercise, similar to how people get dog walkers? just musing!
		
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Or perhaps face up to the fact that they really don't have the time or energy to own a horse?


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## laura_nash (27 October 2016)

Kathy657 said:



			It makes me smile when people say it's cruel to have them in 24/7. What's worse ? Being out from maybe 7 am hardly any grass in the pouring rain or a nice dry stable with ad lib haylage?  I know what ours prefer.
		
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These aren't the only two options though!!  IMO both are cruel (in 24/7 or out in the pouring rain with no shelter and nothing to eat).

Its never completely simple.  

I have known horses that lived very happily with only a few hours turnout at the weekend.  However, they had almost continous human interaction all day, were in "pair" stables with their best mates (with a half wall between each pair of stables), were exercised 2-3 hours every day whatever the weather, and had a summer holiday (shoes off, out full time in lovely fields with loads of shade and out of work) for two months.

I have also in the past owned a horse that was completely happy living alone or on individual turnout (she was a very odd mare! I don't think she liked horses much).


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## milliepops (27 October 2016)

Cortez said:



			Or perhaps face up to the fact that they really don't have the time or energy to own a horse?
		
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well there's no shame in getting a freelance in to ride your horse if you don't have time, it keeps people in jobs after all  The main thing is to be realistic about what you can and can't do. I love riding my horses therefore I bust a gut to make sure I get it done. I know other people who get help with theirs.


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## YorksG (27 October 2016)

With regard to costs of DIY livery, if the owner works away from the yard, then their evenings and weekends are going to be eaten up by the maintenance work that is always needed. A number of people buy a yard, knowing that the costs will have to be offset by taking in liveries, so that will be the base line for the livery cost, quite possibly without any extra payment for the time that running the yard will "cost". When we were at livery we were very fortunate that the YO was onsite pretty much all the time. We have our own place (no liveries) and today I have had to twice get the youngsters out of one of the sheep "escapes" as the cob has decided that she can't feel the electric fence! I'm not sure how people cope on DIY yards with no-one about during the day, I would be constantly concerned about the trouble horses can get themselves into and it costs to have someone about!


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## paddi22 (27 October 2016)

People would be horrified if they heard you locked your dog in a crate by itself for 23 hrs a day. Surely a horse isn't different?  

I know everyone loves their horses and tries their best with the options around them. But people seem to turn a blind eye to horse welfare at times.


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## asmp (27 October 2016)

Haven't read all the replies but why don't we follow what they do on the continent?  I used to be at a German yard and they closed the fields in the winter.  However, most of the stables had a small yard attached so the horses could at least get out into the fresh air as and when they wanted. Mine was a concrete yard and others were grass (which did get muddy but it was up to you).  The ones that didn't have their own yard attached were given time out in the sand school.  It was quite a posh yard, mind you, (but not expensive by UK standards) and there was also a horse walker.

Saying all that I'm on a small DIY yard now and we have winter turnout.  We all have our own fields and we usually allocate one of them to be the winter field.


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## Greylegs (27 October 2016)

asmp said:



			Haven't read all the replies but why don't we follow what they do on the continent?  I used to be at a German yard and they closed the fields in the winter.  However, most of the stables had a small yard attached so the horses could at least get out into the fresh air as and when they wanted. Mine was a concrete yard and others were grass (which did get muddy but it was up to you).  The ones that didn't have their own yard attached were given time out in the sand school.  It was quite a posh yard, mind you, (but not expensive by UK standards) and there was also a horse walker.

Saying all that I'm on a small DIY yard now and we have winter turnout.  We all have our own fields and we usually allocate one of them to be the winter field.
		
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Interesting thread and following with interest. It's made me realise that my yard is far and away in the minority with regard to the facilities offered. We have an arrangement very much as described above, which is unusual in the UK, it seems. My lad shares grazing with my friend's horse but the yard doesn't allow 24 hour turnout at any time of year to help keep the ground and grass supply healthy year round. During the summer we've been turning out at night and bringing in during the day.  We've just turned round for the winter and the horses are now in at night and out during the day.  However ... "in" means they are in their all weather areas, not in stables. I'm particularly lucky that my boy's stable opens onto his all weather pen and is never shut in. His pen is adjacent to three others and even in the worst weather the four of them tend to stand outside as a group even though he could go into a spacious, fully bedded stable. My friend's horse has a wood ship surfaced all weather area and is very happy out there day or night until the winter weather gets really grim, when he would be in his stable over night.

They are still on summer fields but have fully rested winter fields to go to when the weather demands it. The yard has stabling for 20 horses but there are only 10 on site (7 liveries and the YO's three) to ensure that they all have un-trashed grazing to go on to, and the YO is not intending to increase that number as far as I know. I moved from a bigger full livery yard with excellent facilities, to this one on assisted DIY for my horse's sake. It's more work but less money so we both win I think: he's happier and i'm better off!!. Even so, it's still a bit more expensive than other DIY yards in the area, but worth the extra for the excellent and unusual care arrangements.

I'd happily pay more to keep this arrangement or find it elsewhere if we ever move house. 

Finding the ideal balance is tough, I know, and I think horse care is always going to be compromise between what's feasible, what' affordable and what's doable for the YO's point of view.  In the end, you pays your money and you takes your choice.


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## milliepops (27 October 2016)

I love those pens that open off stables, I looked at a yard that had them and thought they were wonderful.

Many yards aren't purpose built though, so it's little wonder they aren't widely available. Thinking of the yards I've been on: cowsheds, open sheds built into a bank, internal barn stable nestled into a natural hollow, converted garage, now an ancient stone barn...

 only one yard I've been on was built by the YO, and could have had pens behind the boxes... and as it happened they had sandy turnout so it was good all year round


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## vallin (27 October 2016)

Round where I am it's definitely a case of cramming as many horses in as possible without thinking about the consequences. I pay £35 a week (so neither cheap nor expensive) and there is a total of half an acre of land per DIY horse - no where near enough to have all year TO but its the best I can find


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## nianya (27 October 2016)

asmp said:



			Haven't read all the replies but why don't we follow what they do on the continent?  I used to be at a German yard and they closed the fields in the winter.  However, most of the stables had a small yard attached so the horses could at least get out into the fresh air as and when they wanted. Mine was a concrete yard and others were grass (which did get muddy but it was up to you).  The ones that didn't have their own yard attached were given time out in the sand school.  It was quite a posh yard, mind you, (but not expensive by UK standards) and there was also a horse walker.

Saying all that I'm on a small DIY yard now and we have winter turnout.  We all have our own fields and we usually allocate one of them to be the winter field.
		
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I was looking for this when I moved here.  Back in the NW US where the climate is similar and the ground is constantly saturated in winter the most common thing I found was a winter "sacrifice" paddock that was built for drainage or had been gravelled.  At the very minimum horses were given a paddock with a shelter so they could move around.  The alternative set up, which is what I've found here for my girl, was a large turnout split in half used for no more than two or three horses at a time so that half was rested even in winter.

I would never keep my horse in 23 hours a day, even if she was being worked for hours a day.  That doesn't mean she has to be on grass, just means that she has to be able to move around.


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## Annagain (27 October 2016)

paddi22 said:



			as regards liveries having to work 40 hours+ days and not being able to exercise a horse enough, should there be an onus on the owner to hire someone to give horses adequate exercise, similar to how people get dog walkers? just musing!
		
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Cortez said:



			Or perhaps face up to the fact that they really don't have the time or energy to own a horse?
		
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Or make sure they are kept somewhere where they can get plenty of turnout and that daily exercise isn't necessary. I would rather pay a premium for this than pay someone to exercise my horse and still have him standing in 22 hours a day.


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## Goldenstar (27 October 2016)

paddi22 said:



			People would be horrified if they heard you locked your dog in a crate by itself for 23 hrs a day. Surely a horse isn't different?  

I know everyone loves their horses and tries their best with the options around them. But people seem to turn a blind eye to horse welfare at times.
		
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Well let's just shoot half the horses in the wet areas of the country that will sort the issue for a while .


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## SEL (27 October 2016)

I think horses tell us a lot - if we pay attention - about whether they want to be in or out. My friend's TB would be happy to never leave his box. I have seen him calmly but persistently walk backwards from the gate in the direction of his stable when he realised he was paddock bound. The weather wasn't even bad.

My little draft horse, however, hates being in. He's extremely hairy and gets condensation all over him when he's in. We had to do 2 whole days when we had floods (& yes - he had some time to stretch in the arena), but when I led him out n the 2nd day for a stretch he unceremoniously towed me towards the main field entrance. There was knee deep water and a new river flowing by. He hates getting his feet wet so I assumed we'd be heading back to the stable in short order. No. He pulled the lead rope from me, galloped through the water and disappeared up to his field. That would be one very, very miserable horse without winter turnout.


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## Sparemare (27 October 2016)

paddi22 said:



			People would be horrified if they heard you locked your dog in a crate by itself for 23 hrs a day. Surely a horse isn't different?  

I know everyone loves their horses and tries their best with the options around them. But people seem to turn a blind eye to horse welfare at times.
		
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This 100%


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## Goldenstar (27 October 2016)

annagain said:



			Or make sure they are kept somewhere where they can get plenty of turnout and that daily exercise isn't necessary. I would rather pay a premium for this than pay someone to exercise my horse and still have him standing in 22 hours a day.
		
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You might well want to pay a premium for turnout but what if it's just not there pressure on land is going to get worse and worse 
All over here livery yards are being built over , I am lucky mine are at home  but I worry about the future of horse care .


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## DD (27 October 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Well let's just shoot half the horses in the wet areas of the country that will sort the issue for a while .
		
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well it would be  a start. there are too many horses and not enough good places to keep them.


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## paddi22 (27 October 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Well let's just shoot half the horses in the wet areas of the country that will sort the issue for a while .
		
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I'd say half of them would shoot themselves if the only option was to be in 23hrs!

 i live in a very, very wet area and horses here don't stand in 24hrs. I don't think there's any excuse for it. We have a small all weather for the worst of the weather, so they still all get out for a play and a groom together


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## milliepops (27 October 2016)

Wow.I think we all need to take a step back and cool down a bit!  I'm not going to shoot my horses if we have a couple of wet days, I know them well enough to tell if they are miserable, they are provided with sufficient forage and stimulation to stay on an even keel mentally and physically and I am absolutely certain there are very many owners like me.

Not every yard has provision for all weather turnout. Wishing it was different won't make it so.  One thing is for sure, everyone on this board will be doing the best they can in all circumstances, the OP included. There is no perfect world.


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## Ben2684 (27 October 2016)

Phew just read this thread from start to finish! Makes for an interesting read. I have just had to look for somewhere to keep my arthritic gelding out 24/7 for the winter, but 2nd horse is stabled overnight. YO has hooefully found a solution and we are seeing if he can stay on the yard he is at now. We are very lucky-small private yard and managed 10 to12 hours turnout every day last winter bar a few days when they came in early due to  the weather. I do worry, three yards in our area have closed down for building so god knows where I would go if mine were to close. We are still on summer fields but feeding hay so as to preserve the winter fields as long as possible.. in the hope winter fields will not be too trashed. summer fields are next to a river so they will stay in there with ad lib hay until heavy rains force us to move them back. I would worry about my stabled horse being on less than 6-8 hours a day turnout though more is preferable. In the winter I purposefully get to the yard very early (4:50am) so that he is out by 5am ish to increase his turn out time, then it is less of an issue if they have to come in at 3/4ish, I luckily also have a huge stable (16x14ft)so plenty of room for him, with two big open windows that he can look out of and watch what is going on.
Very few yards I imagine are 'perfect'


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## Christmas Crumpet (27 October 2016)

We also live in a very wet area and my horse goes out pretty much every day. However, I can do this as it is my land, he is pretty sensible out in the field, he has 2 acres to trash. We also put in a large concrete area (about 7m x 12m or a bit bigger) so that he can wander about freely and go in and out of his stable during the day if he's kept in because the weather is too horrific. 

That is just enough land/space for me to be able to turn him out in the winter where we are. Livery yards just can't provide that space for each horse so in a wet area, banning turnout appears to be the only thing to do. My fields get trashed but I would rather have a happy muddy horse than one stuck in his stable. And I do count myself incredibly lucky to be able to make the choice as to whether he goes out every day (not to mention having an agricultural contractor for a husband who shakes his head every year and says "what do you think I am? A miracle worker?!!").


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## Goldenstar (27 October 2016)

paddi22 said:



			I'd say half of them would shoot themselves if the only option was to be in 23hrs!

 i live in a very, very wet area and horses here don't stand in 24hrs. I don't think there's any excuse for it. We have a small all weather for the worst of the weather, so they still all get out for a play and a groom together
		
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That's very nice for you and as I say I am lucky and my horses can have fields all. the time although I don't do living out as I have horses to use them and doing that means using stables having them clean and clipped etc etc .
But would you do ? clients don't have the upper hand were there's very few yards with enough space you can't vote with your feet when you have no where better to go.


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## Maesfen (27 October 2016)

I've enjoyed this thread but it amazes me how casual people are that YO should put in all weather areas so they can turn out when in some cases they are paying peanuts but don't want their costs to go up.


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## paddi22 (27 October 2016)

i'm completely sympathetic to it and understand that a lot of people are limited in the options near them. If that was the case and i'd limited time, then i'd pay for someone to ride or walk out my horse, or else get a sharer to ensure the horse was in a decent amount of work and out of the stable for more of the day, even if its just tied outside being groomed. 

I don't think its fair to keep an animal that size in a stable all of the day. it's the equivalent of battery farming i think. I know the arguement that some horses like boxes, the same as some people prefer sitting alone in their room, but being honest thats a tiny tiny minority. The minimum most horse deserve is time out to play, groom and interact - not be in solitary confinement. 

I don;t have much money, and at the house we keep 3 horses on an acre and they all turned out into a small all weather. no reason every yard can't do the same. I wouldn't keep a horse at all if the only choice around me was 23hrs a day. Noone here would crate their dogs 23hrs a day, a horse is no different .


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## paddi22 (27 October 2016)

Maesfen said:



			I've enjoyed this thread but it amazes me how casual people are that YO should put in all weather areas so they can turn out when in some cases they are paying peanuts but don't want their costs to go up.
		
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i agree with you, costs should go up to cover it. Yard owners need to make a living and run a viable business. I know i'd pay extra for livery if it meant my horse was happier


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## Goldenstar (27 October 2016)

But all weather turnouts are just cages under the sky unless they are very large .
Such situations are only acceptable for horses in proper daily work .
What people do with old or very young horses in such situations I just don't know .
Keeping three horses on an acre is awful in my book unless they are in really hard work .


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## paddi22 (27 October 2016)

i have a 7 acre field too. so they come up to the house to when they are worked or the night before shows, at the moment its weaning time so those ones are up.  Usually its ones that hack out a few hours a day at a minimum, and then have 2 days off in the  bigger field. 

a small all weather isn't perfect, but at least they can interact, be outside, have a play and not be stuck in a stable. It's a step up from a stable anyways. Mine always have the choice to go in and out, and they are 95% oif the time out,


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## be positive (27 October 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			But all weather turnouts are just cages under the sky unless they are very large .
Such situations are only acceptable for horses in proper daily work .
What people do with old or very young horses in such situations I just don't know .
Keeping three horses on an acre is awful in my book unless they are in really hard work .
		
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I agree they are very restrictive and most horses will just wander about and stand eating hay so not much different to being in a stable, the same with a stable that has a yard attached they may be out in the fresh air so it seems better but is is not allowing natural behaviour or giving them any real exercise opportunity, it is possibly ok if they are in hard work but as a way of justifying keeping them in all winter because they get a chance to play in a pen it is just another sign that horse keeping is often more set up for convenience than for the good of the horses. 
I would prefer to turn out and pay for the fields to be rolled/ harrowed in the spring and have a bit less grass than spend money putting in a turnout area although I have been tempted mid winter when dealing with wet muddy horses.


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## cobgoblin (27 October 2016)

I find this thread depressing....it doesn't bode well for the future.
I don't think a stable without turnout in the winter is worth paying for at all, even if it has a hard standing pen....these are horses not dogs in a rehoming centre. 
Obviously the days of horse ownership are coming to an end...or perhaps I should say the days of good horse husbandry are coming to an end!


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## milesjess (27 October 2016)

I haven't posted for a while but feel obliged to add my experiences ...

I moved from a yard with completely unrestricted turnout and could kick myself in hindsight but sadly it offered no help and I needed it with shift work. 

I moved to a yard which advertised all year turnout and they lived out all summer until October ish... By Xmas the rain started and the turnout became restricted access (happy with that) but then turned into none at all yet the YO's horses went out everyday?! ... We couldn't turnout in the school etc and sure enough the horses became hard to handle etc  ... I moved and vowed never ever again! 

Moved to another yard were it was turnout all day through summer, I wanted mine to live out but it wasn't an option despite been told it was when I moved there but by Sept they started to reduce it to 3-4 hours a day, crank the prices sky high and I dread to think by winter what turnout they'd have if any so again I moved having learnt a lesson first time round. 

My boy is having winter off, he is fit and well but he is out 24-7 in a herd of 7 boy's, big field, lots of grass with natural shelter. He is rugged, checked daily and gets additional big bales of hay if needed through winter for £80 a month. He seems very happy and so am I ... Turnout is my number one priority at any yard and I won't settle for anything less, I accept restrictions in winter but keeping them in all day everyday imo is unfair and cruel, I'll never ever do it again to my horse.  

OP I'd move whilst you can now, don't settle for anything less than what you want for you and your horse.


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## Tiddlypom (27 October 2016)

The difference between restricted daily turnout, say for an hour a day, and no turnout at all, is massive for horse welfare IMHO. 

The former is workable, as long as the horse is also well exercised every day, and is on a yard with 'stuff' happening to look at. The latter is not acceptable.

Get real, though, folks, as zero turnout for those without their own land is only going to get more common.


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## ycbm (27 October 2016)

I'm so conflicted on this thread. I know that every horse deserves what my horses now have. But I also remember when I was much younger and had time consuming jobs, that I was in a situation where I could either ride, or keep my horses in a place with turnout which I wouldn't have been able to get to with time to ride. (Or give up on my marriage!). And since riding was what kept me sane, the horse I had at the time lived in full time in winter without enough exercise. There was one day a week when it wouldn't get out of the box at all, and two other days when it was lucky to get forty minutes round the block, two when it got an hour in the dark on a group lesson, and only decent exercise at weekends.

Was that wrong? I don't know. It wasn't 'good' but I can't remember any of the horses I put through it being unhappy. Then again, I'm much better at reading horses these days.

And I'm pretty sure that if you could ask a horse 'I can offer you this life, or not to live at all' that most horses would choose to live.

Do we have a right to make horses live in less than great circumstances in order for them to provide us with entertainment and stress relief? Maybe.....


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## paddi22 (27 October 2016)

Yeah its a tough one. I just can't fathom spending all day stuck in one room, with just enough room to turn around and a 3ft by 3ft hole that i can poke my head out. I can't imagine how unstimulating and lonely it would be. Is it enough to just provide feed and shelter? isn;t there an onus on the horses inner wellbeing too?

I suppose its just interesting that you see posters (who are lovely) comment on threads about how zoos are cruel, and how its wrong to have a dog if you work during the day, and yet they have no issue on their horses having limited turnout.

And it's not a dig at anyone, everyone loves their horses and does their best. I just find it theoretically interesting, if that makes sense??


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## Goldenstar (27 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			I'm so conflicted on this thread. I know that every horse deserves what my horses now have. But I also remember when I was much younger and had time consuming jobs, that I was in a situation where I could either ride, or keep my horses in a place with turnout which I wouldn't have been able to get to with time to ride. (Or give up on my marriage!). And since riding was what kept me sane, the horse I had at the time lived in full time in winter without enough exercise. There was one day a week when it wouldn't get out of the box at all, and two other days when it was lucky to get forty minutes round the block, two when it got an hour in the dark on a group lesson, and only decent exercise at weekends.

Was that wrong? I don't know. It wasn't 'good' but I can't remember any of the horses I put through it being unhappy. Then again, I'm much better at reading horses these days.

And I'm pretty sure that if you could ask a horse 'I can offer you this life, or not to live at all' that most horses would choose to live.

Do we have a right to make horses live in less than great circumstances in order for them to provide us with entertainment and stress relief? Maybe.....
		
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I agree it's the dilemma of our time .
I think about it lots .
Planning permissions are going through all the time round here building over horsey land .
I am in my mid fifties and I think the best time for horse ownership has passed .
I learnt to ride in a lovely old fashioned riding school , most of those have gone and H and S would make impossible to teach as they did .
My ponies and then horses lived in rented fields very near our house very wet but salty and ragwort was a constant battle but it was fun .
When I married I moved here .
Where will the generation of riders learn are we going back to you needing horsey parents to learn really well .
Will horses return to being things only the rich can truly have unless your born onto a farm or something like that .
When I am out and about there are horses everywhere some appear to be clinging to existence in really grotty conditions what's going to happen to them all .
If as it seems likely the climate in winter is wetter and there's no doult that they are building everywhere what's going to happen to all those horses .
I fear that people will bigger problems than there's no turnout it will be there's no where near me at all I can find a yard .


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## ycbm (27 October 2016)

paddi22 said:



			Yeah its a tough one. I just can't fathom spending all day stuck in one room, with just enough room to turn around and a 3ft by 3ft hole that i can poke my head out. I can't imagine how unstimulating and lonely it would be. Is it enough to just provide feed and shelter? isn;t there an onus on the horses inner wellbeing too?

I suppose its just interesting that you see posters (who are lovely) comment on threads about how zoos are cruel, and how its wrong to have a dog if you work during the day, and yet they have no issue on their horses having limited turnout.

And it's not a dig at anyone, everyone loves their horses and does their best. I just find it theoretically interesting, if that makes sense??
		
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I think it's probably overdue for some scientific research on this issue. I'd like to know the incidence of ulcers in horses with 'insufficient' turnout but correct feeding, and the levels of stress hormones.

If we had those figures, we'd know a lot better what was going on their minds and just how much harm we are doing, or not.


Goldenstar, I share your fears. I bought a house with land in a National park with a lightness of heart, knowing that it was the last place in the country that would be built on.


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## YorksG (27 October 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			I agree it's the dilemma of our time .
I think about it lots .
Planning permissions are going through all the time round here building over horsey land .
I am in my mid fifties and I think the best time for horse ownership has passed .
I learnt to ride in a lovely old fashioned riding school , most of those have gone and H and S would make impossible to teach as they did ................

Where will the generation of riders learn are we going back to you needing horsey parents to learn really well .
Will horses return to being things only the rich can truly have unless your born onto a farm or something like that .........
 .
		
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Absolutely agree with this.


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## paddi22 (27 October 2016)

same here, we ended up moving up the mountains so we'd have space and freedom. 

But realistically, if i lived in a built up area and only had the option of a limited turnout, i'd have to say i WOULD be a hypocrite and take it- as my urge to have a horse would make me muffle any notions that the horse was suffering. I'd see the deep beds, good feed and supplements, care it gets, and i'd file away any thought's it might be unhappy. And then i'd go home and watch the Blackfish documentary and be horrified how an animal could be kept in limited space, lol!


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## honetpot (27 October 2016)

There is no need for them to stuck in a 12x12 box, we have to devise systems that improve horse welfare. Someone probably a couple hundred years ago, when labour was cheap and straw was a waste product, decided  that we should put horses in boxes. This was probably the same time we were sending small boys up chimneys.
  Mine live in open sheds over the winter, with a drained outside area, they can wander around as much as they like. There are studies that look how horses interact indoors in groups and how we can improve things.  We are just going to have to adapt.
http://www4.ntu.ac.uk/apps/news/170559-15/Horses_stabled_alone_show_signs_of_stress_study_shows.aspx


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## paddi22 (27 October 2016)

oh cheers for that link honeypot, was looking for something like that


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## TheMule (27 October 2016)

I personally would never keep my horse in for long periods of time as I just don't think it's accaptable. My lot live out but it took me a fair bit of work to find a manageable way to do that and I am lucky to live in a good part of the country for it. If I lived somewhere wetter/ more limited in land, I'd choose to barn keep my horses through the winter so they had more space and social interaction


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## ycbm (27 October 2016)

TheMule said:



			I personally would never keep my horse in for long periods of time as I just don't think it's accaptable. My lot live out but it took me a fair bit of work to find a manageable way to do that and I am lucky to live in a good part of the country for it. If I lived somewhere wetter/ more limited in land, I'd choose to barn keep my horses through the winter so they had more space and social interaction
		
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But how can anyone 'choose' to barn keep if, even in a cheap part of the country, a  big barn plus a little land would cost £100,000 and no livery offers that way of keeping a horse?


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## ycbm (27 October 2016)

honetpot said:



			There is no need for them to stuck in a 12x12 box, we have to devise systems that improve horse welfare. Someone probably a couple hundred years ago, when labour was cheap and straw was a waste product, decided  that we should put horses in boxes. This was probably the same time we were sending small boys up chimneys.
  Mine live in open sheds over the winter, with a drained outside area, they can wander around as much as they like. There are studies that look how horses interact indoors in groups and how we can improve things.  We are just going to have to adapt.
http://www4.ntu.ac.uk/apps/news/170559-15/Horses_stabled_alone_show_signs_of_stress_study_shows.aspx

Click to expand...

It's a very interesting study, but I have one horse here who would go barking mad if you changed the way you were keeping him every five days.  They need to do this research on much larger groups of horses which do not have their management changed after five days.  Horses appear to me to be more upset by change than  anything, and capable of settling to some conditions which are far less than ideal.


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## paddi22 (27 October 2016)

yeah its probably an impossible task to change existing yards. Would be interesting to see if there was any way to encourage/implement it going forward.


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## ShadowHunter (27 October 2016)

Im lucky that i have my horses at home. They lived out 24/7 from March till mid-September this year; now there in at night but out for 9 hours ish. My dad wont let them have 24/7 in winter due to them trashing the land too much so we compromise. Threads like this remind me how good i have it and thats sad. However; i would certainly not shoot my horses if turnout got a little more restrictive!

I am surprised (very surprised) that people are under the illusion that just anyone can have a horse. They are expensive to keep, always have been, always will. Now would people be willing to have their livery bill tripled (probably) so that YO's can afford to run less horses? A few on here have said they would but i bet the vast majority wouldn't. How many YO's on here have empty boxes as there prices are realistic? Yes, there is a problem with YO's overstocking but the fault also lies with the livery too in some respect.


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## elsielouise (27 October 2016)

I like how this thread has expressed opinions yet not degenerated into offences against individual owner's horse keeping methods. I posted earlier about how I would/will only keep two or three liveries to maintain quality of turnout. However I wanted to comment following on from posts comparing the husbandry of different species to add opinion that I couldnt keep horses if 24/7 or thereabouts  hours of stabling was my only option.

Not intended to criticise others who may disagree but which comes first? The desire to keep a horse under any circumstance or the wellbeing of the horse itself?


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## TheMule (27 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			But how can anyone 'choose' to barn keep if, even in a cheap part of the country, a  big barn plus a little land would cost £100,000 and no livery offers that way of keeping a horse?
		
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Well, I think I'd be speaking nicely to a few local farmers with crossed fingers!
And plenty of livery places offer that for youngstock already. I've replicated it to a point on my own land with a huge run in field shelter set within an all-weather pen. My set up with 7.5 acres of land cost far less than 100k!


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## rachk89 (27 October 2016)

I wouldn't ever put my horse out on individual turnout again unless for rehab from an injury. He gets depressed very quickly and it's horrible to see. Some horses prefer it most don't.

I have kept him in a stable with periods of being let out to walk on a lead for 2-3 weeks under vet instructions too. He handled it well shockingly and it was necessary or the injury would have never healed (it was a deep cut on the joint of his fetlock so any time he moved it reopened). It wasn't nice having to do it but my other option was let him continuously bleed. I think not haha. He handledyit well when he had cellulitis too but he was allowed outpto a small holding paddock then as limited movement helped. But he was feeling too ill to care so it didnt matter then either to him. It would only be for injuries or like previously said when getting to the field could result in an injury. 

Some horses are capable of handling being in a stable well and do know when they are ill. I would rather keep them in a stable than let him out to a field to make everything worse but he is just that type of horse he would give himself a bigger injury.


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## meleeka (27 October 2016)

30 years ago I was on a yard with no turnout (because it was a 'posh' yard, although none of the small yards nearby had much turnout either). I think it was more the norm then than it is now. I didn't know any different  so didn't question it. When I moved to a field my pony suffered, she wasn't used to other horses nor was she prepared for mud, which she had never had to live in. I ended up paying more to keep her in a small field on her own until I got my own rented field. 

I do remember a friends horse being PTS for being 'broken winded' when these days we've learnt that changing management and turning out more is all that was needed.


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## Flame_ (27 October 2016)

I started my horse owning life as a townie on DIY yards in pretty built up areas with little land and little to no winter turnout. Flamey said that was unacceptable and I found my way into Cheshire before I was killed... She taught me a lot that way.

One thing I remember that was extremely useful in the winter was being on a yard against a housing estate. I thought nothing of hacking round the roads at 7.00pm in the middle of winter because they were all lit with street lights, 30mph zones and they didn't lead anywhere except to more houses. Just about any weather conditions except snow, and riding at night for a decent length of time was still possible, but it's not on the pitch black rat runs in rural areas. So, just a thought but maybe this is the future once the countryside is totally covered with housing estates!


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## Leo Walker (27 October 2016)

Thats very similar to some of my experiences as a child, although we did have turnout, we just wanted to ride lots! The hacking was terrible so we spent lots of time pavement pounding round housing estates at all times of the day and night


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## honetpot (27 October 2016)

paddi22 said:



			oh cheers for that link honeypot, was looking for something like that
		
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I would recommend http://www.thehorse.com/
 I get and email newsletter, they round up all the studies that have been done. Some where there must be a grant to study just about anything. Like who knew fat ponies were naughtier, well most PC mums, but now there is a study that shows it.
  They have a lot of articles about management and I have found them to be of a more professional standard than UK ones.
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/32414/frequent-feeding-reduces-group-housed-horses-aggression
Also,
http://equusmagazine.com/blog/world-horse-welfare-reacts-social-aspects-stables-27839


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## teapot (28 October 2016)

The horse I rode over the winter months was in 24/7 and it was my first time dealing with anything that had been in for that amount of time. There is no way I could ever subject a horse to that. I appreciate some settle to it more than others, and it comes with a whole host of factors, but it impacted on said horse so much, that the day I finally managed to get him a few hours of leg stretch, I was almost in tears I was so happy for him. He was becoming dangerous as a result of being cooped up. I hope we have a dry winter otherwise he'll be in again, poor sod. With careful land management, he could have had a good few hours out every day but...

There are two yards close to me that offer 24/7 grazing 365 days a year, one is very reasonably priced; the other is £600 odd a month for full livery. That said, given its management, facilities, hacking, and acreage, if I was in the market for a horse, with the money available to pay a livery bill like that, I would do so in a heartbeat - good things come at a price. 

As an aside, I'm on work experience at the moment and went out to a livery yard - seeing the industry from a professional costs side was eye opening. What's included, what isn't, costs of maintenance etc. There's so much that some horse owners take for granted.


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## Sussexbythesea (28 October 2016)

I'm really lucky to live in an area where at least daily turn-out is the norm as our soils a fairly well draining and exceptionally good if on chalk downland. I sympathise with those in heavy clay areas as I know they are a nightmare to manage. 

I'd be really interested to know what those of you who own and or manage land would consider a fair price for good well-managed fields? I keep hearing that horse owners aren't prepared to pay the rate required to provide this. 

In my mind it makes no sense for most sensible horse owners not to pay for this because we spend a lot more money on bedding and extra hay if we don't have at least some daily turn-out. Coupled with behavioural issues, trying to fit daily exercise in and treat things like mud-fever it makes financial and practical sense to pay that bit extra. On my current yard we've even said to our YM that we'd all rather pay more than have our grazing reduced.


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## ycbm (28 October 2016)

My gut feel worked out on the back of a fag packet is that the proper price for good size fields, post and rail fenced with electric guard wire, rotated, rested and cross grazed with sheep, with well set gates and hardcore gateways, no poo picking duties,  should cost a minimum of fifty pounds a week.   Sixty if there is use of a stable. Seventy if there is use of a good arena.

And add another 20% of you are grossing more than £86,000 because then you must charge vat.

That would provide a fair return for the capital invested, the costs, and the work involved.


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## Limbo1 (28 October 2016)

We have all year turnout but we are on a sandy hill. I have 2 horses and 2 ponies on 6 acres.  In theory I could have 1 more on the land but it would suffer. I am also lucky as  the horses are generally well mannered do not trash ground round gates etc. If I had horses trashing the ground I would have to manage it differently. I have 1 livery she fits in with how I manage it but we decide together things like moving from winter to summer field and when to feed hay etc.

Could you look for a private yard? I have a rule that I don't want her here before 6 am but think that is not unreasonable!


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## Antw23uk (28 October 2016)

My last livery yard before my boy went on loan had very limited turnout during the winter. They have now built trash pens and have a horse walker so everything gets a leg stretch during the day and then ideally you would also ride daily albeit in the indoor school or up and down the mile long driveway. All doable with my lad whose an ex hunter so used to spending lots of time inside and has a level head on him. Some of the horses towards the end were dangerous to handle and totally losing it, it wasnt fun and took forever for field turnout to arrive (there is no 24/7 summer turnout either. Its a fantastic yard and if i had to go back to livery i wouldnt want to be anywhere else.

I now have my boy back off loan and at home for the first time ever (new house, came with land and stables) so winter will be a challenge I imagine but one I'm looking forward to (he says now, lol!) It was a basic three stables, one feed room block sitting on a concrete pad so I've enclosed the yard with one gate entrance and two slip rail entrances so i can alternative the in and out off the yard to help reduce muddy gateways. If the weather is bad he will be kept on the yard with the stable door open but I dont plan on closing him in that stable at all this winter.


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## Damnation (28 October 2016)

Maesfen said:



			I've enjoyed this thread but it amazes me how casual people are that YO should put in all weather areas so they can turn out when in some cases they are paying peanuts but don't want their costs to go up.
		
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My yard is cheap, but I would pay triple to stay on it.



ycbm said:



			My gut feel worked out on the back of a fag packet is that the proper price for good size fields, post and rail fenced with electric guard wire, rotated, rested and cross grazed with sheep, with well set gates and hardcore gateways, no poo picking duties,  should cost a minimum of fifty pounds a week.   Sixty if there is use of a stable. Seventy if there is use of a good arena.

And add another 20% of you are grossing more than £86,000 because then you must charge vat.

That would provide a fair return for the capital invested, the costs, and the work involved.
		
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I paid £50 per week for a yard once on assisted DIY. YO fed and turned out in winter which she insisted on, there way no way of doing mornings myself, fields were cross grazed with sheep, an arena with no light so unusable in winter, no worming programme (all horses turned out together and trying to find out when she wormed hers so we could do ours was like plucking hens teeth), cattle fencing with barbed wire everywhere, no rotation or resting, no poo picking as she had a quad and harrow (which I often did), and fields you literally couldn't walk in in winter (I got stuck up to my knee once!), if you horse didn't come to the gate then don't even bother trying. Oh and did I mention 30+ border collies that could get into the fields with the horses? Field gates to the road left open by YO so horses could get out onto the road, stuff stolen constantly by dogs because she left doors open after we had closed them. (My brand new £50 grooming kit was taken by dogs never to be seen again along with stable bandages, boots, you name it.) shearing sheep in my stable resulting in about £30-£40 worth of bedding having to come out and that is just the tip of the iceberg for that place, I could go on for weeks! I hasten to add nothing was ever replaced, not even an apology. If you horse was tied up on the yard when she let her dogs out? Tough, there was no warning, you'd have to either fend the dogs away from your horse or try and get into a stable ASAP.

That is the worst yard I have ever been on, and the most expensive - go figure?

Now I would have happily paid that price for DIY with all year turnout (daytime winter turnout) and a stable, but the way I was treated was disgusting.


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## baran (28 October 2016)

cobgoblin said:



			Having just read the whole thread....it would appear that horse keeping in the future will be confined to the very rich.....haven't we been here before?
		
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I am not sure what your point is. Running a Porsche is confined to the very rich. Are you suggesting somehow people are entitled to own a horse?


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## cobgoblin (28 October 2016)

baran said:



			I am not sure what your point is. Running a Porsche is confined to the very rich. Are you suggesting somehow people are entitled to own a horse?
		
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No. I'm suggesting that in the future, with the extreme pressures on land for housing and infrastructure...which will also lead to higher feed, forage and livery prices...that even those on good salaries will struggle to pay to keep a horse for leisure. In fact, it may not even be feasible to keep a horse for leisure at all as increased urbanisation will severely restrict access to bridle ways and open land. If riding merely consists of arena work, or being fortunate (or wealthy) enough to be able to afford to live near a national park ( if access is still allowed) then many leisure riders would lose interest.
Hunting in any form would be long gone for the same reasons. I'm sure competition riding would still exist in some form, but as most of the large shows depend on an interested horsey public buying tickets...maybe not.
Owning a house with land will end up so expensive that only the very rich will be able to afford it.

BTW....a Porsche is a lot cheaper to keep than a horse....I used to have one.


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## windand rain (28 October 2016)

The way I see it you should try staying in your bathroom for 23 hours a day and see how long you last someone could provide food, you would have on tap water to drink, room to lie down just the only activity you could have would be eating, sleeping and using the toilet. Might change your mindset a bit. As to horses preferring to be in my guess would be that is habituation not choice. Most can adapt to which ever regime you use but it wont necessarily make them happy.
I do think that perhaps if we cannot provide the necessary regime to keep a horse as near to nature as possible given the constraints of riding them we should perhaps not keep them at all. Trouble is that it is cheaper to own a horse now than it it to have lessons for a family so more people do own and the resultant ignorance it astounding. Having said that the haphazzard way some horse are kept seems to work as it seems the best kept seem to be the ones most easily broken. Or perhaps it just that they don't notice


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## Sussexbythesea (28 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			My gut feel worked out on the back of a fag packet is that the proper price for good size fields, post and rail fenced with electric guard wire, rotated, rested and cross grazed with sheep, with well set gates and hardcore gateways, no poo picking duties,  should cost a minimum of fifty pounds a week.   Sixty if there is use of a stable. Seventy if there is use of a good arena.

And add another 20% of you are grossing more than £86,000 because then you must charge vat.

That would provide a fair return for the capital invested, the costs, and the work involved.
		
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Thanks - on a train to London now. 

I currently pay £150 pcm for your most expensive option although we have good electric tape and wooden post fencing and do our own poo-picking. We have a 30x60 rubber arena, large stables and second to none hacking. Heated tack room and rug room. It's individual turn-out and we have two large paddocks per horse which we can use as we wish. They were both harrowed, rolled, and one lot sprayed, fertilised and reseeded this year. I feel incredibly lucky to have all this but would you believe some of the liveries still moan and one requested that the yard supply a washing machine! 

I'd happily pay more for this - I could comfortably pay an extra £50 a month and less comfortably a bit more than that. 

It's part of a much larger estate handed down through generations and anything needing doing is covered by existing estate staff and estate equipment so I guess that this minimises their costs considerably, even so I think they under charge.


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## Antw23uk (28 October 2016)

baran said:



			I am not sure what your point is. Running a Porsche is confined to the very rich. Are you suggesting somehow people are entitled to own a horse?
		
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I did a stint working for VW Finance ... you would be amazed at how many porches, Bentley's and the like are being driven around on higher purchase, lol!


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## paddi22 (28 October 2016)

I have sympathy for livery owners who feel the need to keep lowering prices. It must be frustrating to have to do, especially when you see posters complaining about livery costs on one hand and then in another post talk about the crazy expensive supplements and best quality food they use. Must be very frustrating. 

I hate doing the old 'hark back to the old days' but when you look at the amount of commercialisation and the amount of unnecessary stuff people buy today, it does make you long for the old days where everything was more basic and people had minimal equipment which was used non stop. If i was a livery owner, my thoughts would be if the liveries can but freejump stirrups etc, they can afford an extra tenner surely.


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## milliepops (28 October 2016)

windand rain said:



			The way I see it you should try staying in your bathroom for 23 hours a day and see how long you last someone could provide food, you would have on tap water to drink, room to lie down just the only activity you could have would be eating, sleeping and using the toilet. Might change your mindset a bit. As to horses preferring to be in my guess would be that is habituation not choice. Most can adapt to which ever regime you use but it wont necessarily make them happy.
		
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I agree in principle that it would be lovely to keep all horses in giant fields in herds.  Let's make that clear :lol:

But what does the average horse do all day? Eat, sleep and poo.  We have to be absolutely clear that as owners we need to meet their needs, but I'm pretty sure my horses aren't wishing they had more fulfilled lives - they don't wish they had a job or could give to charity or go to the library, or watch a film etc as I might to if I was shut in the bathroom.

I'm exaggerating, but we also say horses like and thrive off routine, they are prey animals so they need to feel *safe* not constantly stimulated. I'm a firm believer in allowing as much freedom as possible as it's good for their  bodies but we shouldn't get diverted into thinking they are bored etc.

As an aside, I wonder whether viewpoints are different for owners of entires (mares and stallions) and geldings?
I never ever see my girls play. Nor the other mares in the yard. Head down eating, or looking our for monsters. The geldings will have a funny 5 minutes now and again though.


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## Maesfen (28 October 2016)

milliepops said:



			As an aside, I wonder whether viewpoints are different for owners of entires (mares and stallions) and geldings?
I never ever see my girls play. Nor the other mares in the yard. Head down eating, or looking our for monsters. The geldings will have a funny 5 minutes now and again though.
		
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Don't you believe it; mares play as hard as the boys - at least mine have done!


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## ihatework (28 October 2016)

I have never seen my mare play.
She is very very happy and content in her own company and generally far more settled to deal with. She is the only one I have had that seems happier on individual turnout.

This last year she has had to socialise, on the whole the only interactions she has with the others (other than her own foal) was to scowl at them and tell them to do one.

She did seem to very much get on with one mare at stud pre-foaling, which was not the norm for mine.


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## Identityincrisis (28 October 2016)

milliepops said:



			But what does the average horse do all day? Eat, sleep and poo.  We have to be absolutely clear that as owners we need to meet their needs,
		
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See I feel that daily turn out is an essential part, I am lucky (very, by the sound of it!) that we have all day turn out in Winter, I get frustrated as many don't turnout daily, saying their horse wants a 'Duvet day', no they don't you're projecting your feelings on to them! This wouldn't bother me most times, each to their own, but sometimes the whole yard (full of over pampered hairies) decide to keep in so I have no choice as I wouldn't be happy turning out my young horse on his own without me being able to keep an eye on him.  

I believe daily turnout is important for mental and physical health. I'm not criticising those who can't due to rules. I just agree with the comparison of us being stuck in a bathroom day after day


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## ycbm (28 October 2016)

The way I see it you should try staying in your bathroom for 23 hours a day and see how long you last someone could provide food, you would have on tap water to drink, room to lie down just the only activity you could have would be eating, sleeping and using the toilet. Might change your mindset a bit.
		
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But it's not the same is it?  Horses don't read books or play chess, it's not in the intellectual capacity. The have a much higher boredom threshold than a human. You might as well say to a person 'you try eating nothing but grass and see how you like it'.

Lots of horses seem perfectly content in a stable.


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## Amye (28 October 2016)

I think it's difficult to compare with 'us being stuck in a room all day', humans have intelligent minds and are quite content to sit around all day if they have a tv/books etc to stimulate them. But I don't think you can equate that to a horse being stuck in a stable all day with food - horses were built to roam miles upon miles everyday in search of food, quick bursts of energy to escape danger all in a  herd. They are prey, we are predators, their minds are completely different from ours, and we can't *really* imagine what they actually think or feel. You'll always be able to argue one way or another in that comparison, as you can't really compare without anthropomorphism. We can't say that horses have a higher 'boredom' threshold than us because getting bored is really just a human term.

I know that none of what we do with horses is 'natural' but I also think that being turned out is good for a horses mental and physical health.  Just my opinion! Everyone has their own opinion on what is best for their horse - and as we all know, what's good for one might not be for the other.

Personally, I would always look for a yard with daily turnout throughout the year as that's what I believe is best for my horse.


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## smja (28 October 2016)

Identityincrisis said:



			I get frustrated as many don't turnout daily, saying their horse wants a 'Duvet day', no they don't you're projecting your feelings on to them!
		
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Speak for yourself. My horse has literally refused to go out before in the winter, planted in the barn doorway and was having none of it. He cheerfully went back into his stable, happy as Larry!


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## Annagain (28 October 2016)

smja said:



			Speak for yourself. My horse has literally refused to go out before in the winter, planted in the barn doorway and was having none of it. He cheerfully went back into his stable, happy as Larry!
		
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Some horses cope with it far better than others. Mine is very happy to come in but he's far more desperate to get out in the morning. My farrier always shoes him at 8am so used to do him straight from the stable in winter but now we turn him out for an hour before getting him in and cleaned up for shoeing. It's more work but so much easier as he's just so grumpy if he hasn't had his turnout and a roll. If we plan on riding him straight from the stable we have to get him clean the night before as he just won't stand to be brushed.  

Once there was a breakdown of communication and he got stuck in his stable until 2pm. He attacked me when I arrived, it's the only time he's ever done anything like it. The one time he got left out overnight due to a problem (these incidents were 7 years apart, it's not common!) he didn't even care about coming in to eat his food in the morning.


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## Damnation (28 October 2016)

My mare is like yours Annagain, she wouldn't attack me but is normally a very well mannered horse. If she is in she just becomes so pushy, even in storm conditions she would rather be outside and miserable than inside eating hay!

Always desperate to go out in the morning, she can cope being in for a few days but she really does not like it.

Having been bred in Holland where she was in the field and then going onto an Eventer I wonder if she just didn't get turned out with the Eventer and this has traumatised her somewhat?

If only they could talk..


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## Amye (28 October 2016)

Damnation said:



			If only they could talk..
		
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I think this would solve all our problems!


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## cobgoblin (28 October 2016)

Amye said:



			I think this would solve all our problems!  

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Nope...that would start a whole new raft of difficulties!


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## scats (28 October 2016)

Mine enjoy going out on in any weather.  Granted, in winter I might bring in a few hours earlier if it has lashed down all day, and they usually look pretty happy with that arrangement.  BUT, they are just as keen to go out in all weathers.  They might walk sidewards to the field to keep the rain off their faces but once they are out, they happily go and graze and play.  I knew someone who used to insist their horse hated the rain, and granted it would appear to stop and refuse to move, but in reality, if you watched the owner leading it, you could tell that they really didn't want to go out in the rain by the way they lead it and walked and I'm absolutely positive some of that reluctance transferred to the horse, hence the reason it kept stopping.


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## Annagain (28 October 2016)

cobgoblin said:



			Nope...that would start a whole new raft of difficulties!
		
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Oh yes, I can imagine the negotiations with mine. He'd drive a very hard bargain


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## Goldenstar (28 October 2016)

Well I know said I liked the black Antares but now I think I would prefer a brown Butet and another thing I don't think blue is really my colour so would it  be an awful lot of trouble could you get me a red thermatex and another thing I don't like that new bay at the end of the row would you mind getting rid of him thanks awfully shut the door quietly on your way out .
Munch munch munch .


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## Kathy657 (29 October 2016)

It's what your horses get used to I suppose. At our yard as youngsters they are out 24/7 . In the winter they are barned in groups with no turnout. The ridden horses go out at night in the summer and come in during the day, and they are ready and waiting at the gate. God help you if you try and leave them out for a day off, they just go mad running around causing havoc. In the winter they stay in when it gets wet. If we do manage to turn out for a couple of hours they just stand by the gate.
We aren't being cruel, the horses are happy. It's an American barn system so they have company. 
Personally I can't bear to see horses out  all day unless they have  adequate rugs, grazing & some shelter.


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## DipseyDeb (29 October 2016)

I had the same dilema, the yard I was at was the most expensive in the area but very restricted turnout in the winter, resulting in mine developing a bit of a dust allergy.  I have been lucky enough to get on one of the few yards in the area that doesn't have any restrictions.  They have an abundance of well maintained grazing land and all for almost half of what I was paying.  That said it is in the minority (I believe) round these parts and I certainly won't be moving on in a hurry


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## SO1 (29 October 2016)

I have never been on a yard which has not offered all year round turnout, but I am in the SE and the weather is drier for longer. However I would have though that in Northern England even though the weather is wetter land is cheaper and it is less built up so you would have more yards with lots of land and perhaps YO would not need to get so many liveries to cover the cost of the land.

I think the horses do need to go out every day and one hour for a healthy horse is not enough even if the owner can come and ride every day. I work full time and have a long commute from work to yard and so I don't normally get to the yard until about 6.45pm. In winter my pony is not very keen in coming out of his stable to be exercised in the school in evenings when it is cold, he would rather be in his stable eating his hay. He is a native pony and very greedy his happiness is mainly based around where the best food is! In the summer the best food is in the field in the winter when the grass is not as lush and is more like living hay he likes to be in his stable when he can stuff himself with hay without much effort. He does still have to go in the field every day though and he does get keen to come in during the winter.

I can sort of see the logic in that part/full livery yard may have more consistent turnout as it helps with their routine and it is easier with staff and hay/feed ordering if they have a similar routine all year round. A DIY yard may be different as reducing turnout does not reduce profit because the owner is doing the mucking out and buying hay etc and it is not extra work for the YO.  If a part/full livery yard can have the horses going out every day then it means less time spent mucking out and less hay needs to be feed. I am on part livery and the horses have the same routine all year round - out during the day in at night and there is plenty of grass even in the winter, however even though there is loads of grass the horses still sometimes wait around wanting to come in the winter when the grass is less green and tasty. 

I used to be on DIY grass livery for many years, there were two yards that did grass livery and both of them did not allow big horses to live out it was only ponies and cobs who could live out, their reasons being that the smaller ponies and cobs were less prone to running around and did not churn the land up as much as the bigger horses.


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## HashRouge (30 October 2016)

SO1 said:



			I have never been on a yard which has not offered all year round turnout, but I am in the SE and the weather is drier for longer. However I would have though that in Northern England even though the weather is wetter land is cheaper and it is less built up so you would have more yards with lots of land and perhaps YO would not need to get so many liveries to cover the cost of the land.
		
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Sadly this is a slightly naive view. It's true there is a lot of land. There certainly is where my parents live, which is roughly where I think the OP lives. However, that doesn't mean the livery yards have any more land than elsewhere in the country. Most of the land is owned or rented by sheep farmers, who certainly don't want horses making a mess of their grazing!


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## stencilface (30 October 2016)

Yes, because all land in the north is windswept grassland owned by Greengrass and only costs a quid an acre 

There is little horse grazing as said above, most is for sheep or farming (to provide the southerners with food no doubt  ) precious little is there for livery yards. And yes, it rains, although I don't think that's an exclusively northern thing.

Fwiw our geldings play regularly. Mainly instigated by the mule jumping on one of them  

Three of ours are out 24/7 year round, two will go in at night for the wettest and darkest months  (Dec  to Feb generally). Lucky in that it's our land and there's enough of it, even if lots of it is clay.


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