# Abnormal Hind leg action



## Rachelashleigh (29 October 2015)

I seem to have a stable yard full of misfit and medical nightmares, here is my second post in the veterinary section about one of my other horses.

I have a 17.3 Dutch Warmblood called Titch, I bought him for £1 as his old owners thought he was boring (he is not boring at all bless him) I bought him knowing he has problems which is not a problem to me, I would just like to find out as much as I can. 

When Titch walks he swings his hind legs out his offside more so than his near, its not every stride and once warmed up fully he does it even less. 

I have had the vet and back man out and still no further forward to what is wrong al they can say could be in his stifle area and his femoris and gluteal are tight,  he struggles to turn tight circles and cross his back leg over, all they could suggest was tail pulling exercises 30 a day.  To carry on riding him but don't go out competing etc just a light hack. 

I have tried to find out as much as  I can about his history, one of his old owners sadly has passed away and her daughter said they had him xrayed or scanned and came back clear, I have spoken to the vets who was down as his vets at that time and they have not scanned or xrayed but the daughter can not think of what other vet they could have used ad they bought hi like it from Richmond Sport horses.

I have spoken to Richmond sport horses they can remember him but said his legs were fine?? I have wrote a letter to his breeder and someone who owned him in Holland before he came over here, awaiting a reply.

Today I have learnt someone on my yards farrier used to shoe him, so I called him and he said he thinks it could be shivers or shivers and something else??

He is difficult bless him with his hind legs but does not "shiver" he snatches his foot away, so much so I now only have fronts on him.
After speaking to the farrier I have looked into shiver and about diet etc, he is currently on Alfa A, Sugar b and luminate, I have booked the vet again I don't think they can say anything else but I thought maybe worth ago, I need them out for yearling (another thread lol)

He is disgusting in the stable I wonder if he turns it up in the night keeping himself from going stiff,  he is better when out 24/7 but he likes his stable this time of the year.

Has anyone own or had experience with a similar problem please?  I will take a video later and see if I can post it on.

Thank you, I hope my ramblings make sense.


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## madlady (29 October 2015)

From what you describe it sounds like the way someone with a bad hip walks after they've been not moving for a while - am I thinking right?

It sounds more like arthritic type symptoms than anything else if it lessens as he warms up and is better when he is out 24/7 - which would also explain the tight muscles and his being uncomfortable on tight circles.

If you really want to find out exactly what is going on then really X-rays are the way forward - if they show up arthritic changes then you can manage accordingly - the more he can move though the better.  It could be that he will need some sort of anti-inflammatory (bute etc) over winter months while he's stabled.

I hope it's nothing more serious than that.


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## ihatework (29 October 2015)

It sounds very much like a hind end veterinary issue, and I suspect you know that.

I suppose you have to decide how much you are willing to spend on this horse. Investigations could run into thousands and might/might not give you an answer. If you get an answer it doesn't mean you can definitely fix it. 

In your shoes I would spend the money on pain relief, cartrophen and Physio to try and relieve symptoms and keep the horse as mobile and comfortable as possible.


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## Rachelashleigh (29 October 2015)

Thank again madlady I do have a few misfits bless them, I could quite easily start another thread on one of my others lol.

His old owners had him scanned I was told but came back clear, I honestly don't know how.  I will see if anyone is on the yard later to film him for me.  He is 12 year old and I have traced him back having the problem for 6 years.  Thanks for your reply (again lol)


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## Rachelashleigh (29 October 2015)

Thank you ihatework, the vet and backman said the same it will cost £1000s just to have an answer.  I have been adding turmeric, pepper and coconut oil to his feed and luminate (they make it at the yard I am on and said may help him). 

I have bought some bute for if needed in the winter wen colder etc.  He will be with us for life even if it comes to he cannot be rode and if and when he is in to much pain I will make the right decision for him, he is genuinely the most wonderful I have ever met in 25 years of having horses he is a dream to own.  Thank you again


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## EQUIDAE (29 October 2015)

If his gluteals are tight you can lift a back leg and pull it forwards. It's something my physio recommends for my mare who has tight glutes and gave me a list of other exercises to do. Check with your vet that it is ok and you could get your back person to show you how it is done next time they come. It's really helped loosen up my mare's back end and step under more.

Just to add though that my mare has no actual issues - the physio comes every 8 weeks or so as a preventative measure to my horse (she tortures me too and is doing wonders for my shoulder pain). With issues I really would check with the vet that any exercises aren't going to be detrimental to the horse.


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## Orangehorse (29 October 2015)

He could have had a fall and broken his pelvis?


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## Orangehorse (29 October 2015)

Orangehorse said:



			He could have had a fall and broken his pelvis?
		
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I mean that he had a fall in the past and it has healed, but that has affected his action.  It happens, particularly with hunters.


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## applecart14 (29 October 2015)

Rachelashleigh said:



			I have bought some bute for if needed in the winter wen colder etc.  He will be with us for life even if it comes to he cannot be rode and if and when he is in to much pain I will make the right decision for him, he is genuinely the most wonderful I have ever met in 25 years of having horses he is a dream to own.  Thank you again
		
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What a shame his previous owners only thought him worth £1 and rated him as boring.  Very sad, but so nice that you have stepped in for him, he sounds adorable, I love gentle giants having had five big horses of my own.

If its any consolation my horses stable is a nightmare too!  I think its when you have big horses they tend to pulverise poo into the bed and being on shavings it doesn't help. Also they tend to leave an outdoor wet rug on the horses when they come in from the fields which isn't ideal as the water just runs straight off into the bed and makes it all damp but I digress.

My boy is stiff when first trotted but it soons wears off, its just the side affect of arthritis and being stiff to start.

I think you would get more assistance with the physio.  Can you consult a veterinary physio - I can recommend a very good one in the Midlands.  The physion will be able to assess the muscles and feel any areas of tension and prescribe any exercises, such a stretching, long reining, using therabands or T.E.N.S machine, LW ultrasound, and magnetic therapy treatment to name a few.

There are loads of things you can do to improve your horses way of going.


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## Tangaroo (29 October 2015)

Try getting Rob Jackson, the Horseback vet out to him.  He is an equine vet who specialises in osteopathy and is brilliant.  He has a facebook page and travels all over the country


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## Rachelashleigh (29 October 2015)

Thank you everyone, I will take a look for rob Jackson and could you please give me the details Applecart14 I'm Nottinghamshire Derbyshire border, so not far from the midlands, I will try anything  When I first got Titch he would jump out of he field if he could not see other horses, I had to fasten to electric posts together as I bought the tallest ones and he popped over like it was 2 foot! I said to the vet do you think he could have been in a field with a stone wall and jumped out and clipped himself.

I have taken a video, I will get a better one tomorrow but nobody was at the yard today. he had just come out of the stable so he does it more often  View My Video  the video looks jumpy its not on my phone so will find another hosting site. you can see his action though.  

I have the farrier tomorrow so will have another chat with him too and ask him what he thinks about shivers, he does snatch his leg but I think that could be to do with what is wrong not necessarily shivers. I would have thought all the different vets that have seen him would have picked up on it.

He is definitely not boring bless him, out of all my horses I trust him the most, I have a two year old boy who insists on leading him and Titch just toddles along side, he drops his head for my little boy to brush his face he really is a star, he is great to ride in walk and trot but can get very very excited in canter and can put some good bucks in.

Just a after thought it may not mean anything but he has several splints and has been hobdayed (not sure if spelt correct), he must have been hobdayed before entering the country as all his previous owners hadn't noticed. When he whinnies you can definitely tell and he has a scar, I know not really relevant.  I am also tracing his pedigree lines to see if shivers was known in them.

I will try my best for him and make sure he is happy and pain free for as long as I can.  Again Thank you everyone


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## ycbm (29 October 2015)

Do you mean that he can't cross his back legs over when you turn him in a tight circle?  That, difficulty picking up the hind feet and what I call 'the wet nappy walk' can be signs of a wobbler. .It isn't painful in most cases, I don't think, and he might be fine as a gentle hack which is what you got him for.


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## sianny87 (29 October 2015)

My horse was swinging her hind legs and then landing them outside of where the front foot fell. He was the third vet I had to my horse. This was not picked up with the first two. She was x-rayed and it turned out her hind heels have deteriorated, meaning the bone was effectively pointing the wrong way. She has to wear wedges for the at least the next 3 shoeings, but this had also caused an issue in her stifles and there were bony growths. She had these removed via key holes. 2 weeks of box rest & 4-6 weeks of field rest.


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## Rachelashleigh (29 October 2015)

When I turn him in a tight circle he does not cross his back legs over and his hind is on a different track to his fore, I will have a look at wobblers on the net, I have watched more videos of horses hind leg action lately lol.  I will ask the farrier tomorrow if wedges may help and to give it a go, he is currently barefoot behind.  I don't mind if he is a light hack bless him at the moment he is just that I probably ride him once a week for a potter.  I will also have a word with the vet when they come out. I don't now if you could see the action n the video. Thank you everyone.


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## Rachelashleigh (29 October 2015)

Here is the boy in question


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## ycbm (29 October 2015)

Rachelashleigh said:



			When I turn him in a tight circle he does not cross his back legs over and his hind is on a different track to his fore, I will have a look at wobblers on the net, I have watched more videos of horses hind leg action lately lol.  I will ask the farrier tomorrow if wedges may help and to give it a go, he is currently barefoot behind.  I don't mind if he is a light hack bless him at the moment he is just that I probably ride him once a week for a potter.  I will also have a word with the vet when they come out. I don't now if you could see the action n the video. Thank you everyone.
		
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Can he back up walking in diagonal pairs?  If someone leads him on a straight line and you pull his tail to one side, does he sway in the direction you pull?  These are also signs of a possible wobbler.


Lovely photo


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## Rachelashleigh (29 October 2015)

Thank you  He can walk backwards in diagonal pairs he does seem to have a problem backwards its forwards and he is shocking on  downwards inclines.  I will have a go with his tail in the morning.  He does wear his hind feet down really fast but has shocking feet.  I found a photo of him on the net with his previous previous owners and he looked like he had cloven feet.

Is wobblers hereditary? I have found quite a few horses with either his dam or sire mainly his sires side, I could try t research them if it is hereditary.


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## applecart14 (30 October 2015)

Rachelashleigh said:



			Thank you  He can walk backwards in diagonal pairs he does seem to have a problem backwards its forwards and he is shocking on  downwards inclines.  I will have a go with his tail in the morning.  He does wear his hind feet down really fast but has shocking feet.  I found a photo of him on the net with his previous previous owners and he looked like he had cloven feet.

Is wobblers hereditary? I have found quite a few horses with either his dam or sire mainly his sires side, I could try t research them if it is hereditary.
		
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There is no evidence for it being hereditary in horses, but some experts sit on the fence with this one!  Its more common in geldings than mares (twice as many although some reports say up to six times as many), affects horses with long neck more easily, and Shires, Quarter Horses, Morgans, TB's and WB's are more predisposed to this disease. Feeding excessive amounts of energy and other nutrients, physical trauma, rapid growth, and decreased copper/increased zinc levels, or a combination of these factors. It can be caused by cervical malformation which is called CVM.  Large fast growing breeds are more affected. It normally effects 2 year olds but late onset wobblers or CVM can develop through arthritis or instability of the neck bones, causing calcifcation which in turn narrows the space for the spinal cord and nerves to run through causing ataxia and incordination. Early signs are lack of co-ordination of the legs, an abnormal canter (throwing you out of the saddle upwards -- different to disunited canter.  They sometimes rub their hind fetlocks together or will cut the bulbs of their front heels.  They find it hard to cross over the hind legs when turned on a circle and will fall in when their tail is pulled when led in a straight line, and be unable to remain straight.  Backing the horse up is difficult for wobblers horses due to the lack of co-ordination.  Most wobblers horses that are diagnosed start at about grade 2 and then it develops to grade 3 or 4.  My horse was grade 3 (he fell on his neck when he was ten) and was PTS with it as there was nothing that could be done for him.

There are lots of things that can be done for most wobblers diagnosed horses but it depends on how much of their vetebrae are affected, I was led to believe that C6 inpingement is very difficult to treat.


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## madlady (30 October 2015)

From the video it looks like hip/stifle are causing the problem - it looks like he's bringing his leg round because it won't go under - almost like a locked hip/stifle??

The only thing I have ever seen that looked remotely similar was on an old broodmare - her hip/pelvis had been damaged at some point before we had her at the stud (she was a visiting mare) and if she had been in overnight it was like everything locked up on her near side and she showed an action similar to your boy but her leg didn't come round quite so much - that was due to arthritis which the vet had put down to the earlier damage - we never knew exactly what the damage was as she was a visiting mare but the owner and her vet managed as arthritis.  She was a lot better out 24/7.

He is a lovely boy though and very lucky that he's landed on his feet with you.


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## fatpiggy (30 October 2015)

If he can't cross over behind, that usually indicates neurological, however given what you say, I would ask the phsyio to look at the equivalent of our hip flexor muscles (soas muscle).  As for funny walks, I have developed a strange action in my right leg because I have arthritis in my big toe and in the knuckle at the base of it, which means I can't bend it when I walk, so my leg sort of swings out and round to accommodate it!


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## applecart14 (30 October 2015)

RachelAshleigh - its Gemma Key for the veterinary physio.  A lot of people recommend her.  She is coming out to my horse for a check up next Sunday!  http://gemmakeyvetphysio.com/


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## Nudibranch (30 October 2015)

It may be something like mild DJD. This can present with a slightly odd gait behind, and also the leg snatching. Bigger horses are sadly more prone. My 17.2 beast is suspected, although the x rays were clear and he only showed through blocks, and even that was marginal. I think wobblers is often misdiagnosed by owners, largely due to the tail test which easily gives false positives.  My vet wont use it at all.


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## Rachelashleigh (30 October 2015)

Thank you everyone I wrote everything down, I have the farrier at 2 so will have a chat with him, I will also contact the physio and see if she can come out again and have another look. I have just got all his notes out from when previous owner had him checked, he was checked by Nicola Baguley, it says ;  

History, got horse in may has an unusual gait in walk behind, seen vet but undiagnosed.

Past medical history; as far as knows always had the gait.

Static assessment;  confirmation has a tick  muscle balance- weak behind

lunge left rein - right rein -

movement assessment walk away, tick  walk back , tick  notes flex test no difference.  Trot away, tick  trot back, tick    notes sound, no symptoms in trot, but in walk (cant read writing but something like doducts or clocluts none make sense)  limb with little hock flexion mainly RH but some symptoms  in LH

Reinback tick

Range of motion active spine tick

passive stretches movements LF  tick RF tick LH tick RH tick notes say looks like jnt ron (?) normal no noticeable pain but some instability WB on one limb behind RH > LH muscular tightness neck (looks like) bulot

Post treatment decided issue is probably nerve damage (old) and unlikely to change tail pulls 20 x a day


His old owners was happy with that information but I'm not, maybe I'm wasting my time but I just want to know  I know it wont change anything but if it can help to tailor his care.


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## Rachelashleigh (30 October 2015)

I have just found the vets assessment from previous owners it says rear hind from hip awkward in walk?! oh and cracked hoof that's the lot.


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## atlantis (30 October 2015)

I can't see the video and I've not read all of these comments... But my dog moves like this and always has, and he has stifle issues. He can't bend his stifle underneath him so swings his legs to the side for ground clearance.


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## gunnergundog (30 October 2015)

Can't see any link to a video...perhaps you could re-post?

Nicola is reputable/ACPAT so if you are still in her area maybe you could ask her for a re-visit to determine how things have progressed since her last visit to the horse.  Failing that, you are looking at finding a reputable veterinary referral centre and spending MONEY to get to the bottom of this.  Not sure how old the horse is or what level it works at, but is it worth it?  

Comments that you quote such as:  rear hind from hip awkward in walk?! oh and cracked hoof that's the lot.     These do not read as the sort of comments that a good equine vet would use and put in writing.


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## mega spoilt ponies (30 October 2015)

Rob jackson for sure- the man is a miracle worker!! And shock horror is a vet that actually listens


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## shellibob (29 January 2016)

Just dropped across this and wanted to know how you were getting on with this horse?


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