# Myth or Truth. Polo mints contain banned substance?



## ArcticFox (28 October 2013)

I was told recently that polo mints shouldn't be fed to competition horses as they contain a banned substance.  is this true?  what do you give instead if it is?  i have a worrier who works well on being given the odd treat - and he never bites etc so its all ok 

anyway, after google searching, I have found a photo on an article about banned substances that had polo mints on it, but nothing written. 

can anyone dispel the myth?  or confirm the fact??

many thanks


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## Capriole (28 October 2013)

What are you looking at? Is it the picture here here?

Looks to me like the mints with a hole are just to stick the pills into the middle of.


I actually don't know, I don't compete under rules and dont feed mints, so this is something I'm not up on.


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## Jane_Lou (28 October 2013)

I hope not! The only time we feed polo's is out competing!

Looking at that picture though, I think the polos were being used to hide the taste of what looked like acp - so shove tablet in hole in polo etc ?


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## HD15 (28 October 2013)

I've wondered the same and was actually thinking of posting on this too.  But from what I can tell I think this refers to peppermint oil which contains menthol which I've seen rumors was a banned substance.

I've done a search of the FEI Cleansport database and looked at the pdf of the banned and controlled lists and menthol doesn't come up anywhere. I also tried the formal chemical name and didn't find that either.

So, without knowing exactly I would guess it might previously have been a banned substance? And I think it still is for the Jockey Club.


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## bounce (28 October 2013)

Ru got drug tested at a BE event and never had anything show up and considering he is a polo mint addict I would have thought that if polos had a banned substance then he would definitely have tested positive.  I think it is just a myth.


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## applecart14 (28 October 2013)

I have heard of this and I am 99% sure it is due to the stearic acid content which contravenes the rules under FEI competition.

This product is found in bodybuilders products (I believe) and its an animal by product (I think).

Here is a link about polos in competition http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-203603.html


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## HD15 (28 October 2013)

applecart14 said:



			I have heard of this and I am 99% sure it is due to the stearic acid content which contravenes the rules under FEI competition.
		
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Stearic acid isn't in the database either...http://prohibitedsubstancesdatabase.feicleansport.org and neither is its chemical name "Octadecanoic acid".  Would have thought that was just used to help the structure/processability of the mint.  

And the mystery continues!


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## ArcticFox (28 October 2013)

i was told by an instructor who teaches BE that polos shouldn't be used.  maybe they are mistaken?

we always used polos for competition time too.  

It was something I was pondering then found the pic - I agree its probably about hiding things in the hole, but it also adds to the confusion!

Also one my current instructor feeds my boy mint imperials - are these bad too?? I'm hoping to compete at a 1* star next year or the year after, would be good to know in advance.  I'd absolutely be devastated if my horse was randomly sampled and tested positive for something - must be how Jock and Kevin feel right now. 

I'm already paranoid about meds being mixed up (seperate red bucket etc) but would be interested in knowing the answer about the mints.


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## hellspells (28 October 2013)

The pictures you've found could well relate to an incident in Jersey a few years ago when it was thought a mother was seen slipping polo mints with ACP tablets to other competitors ponies...

Can't help re actually polos though.


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## Santa_Claus (28 October 2013)

The photo you found without looking I am 99.9% certain was one my mum took in relation to the Jersey story whereby a Mum allegedly fed competitor's ponies acp by putting the acp in the polo hole. 

The polo was just a means to an end. As to whether any ingredient in polos is banned is another question but if there was I would have expected it to be far far far well known!


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## ester (28 October 2013)

your mum has ACP and hypodermics available


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## BeckyD (28 October 2013)

I remember reading something about the sugar-free polos containing something that's banned, years ago.


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## Santa_Claus (28 October 2013)

If needles involved not her pic then as hers was a pic of a polo containing an acp tablet. The photo was used by almost all the national papers


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## ester (28 October 2013)

I know which one you mean I think, on a hand . No it isn't that it does have ACP in a polo mint but also a bottle of yellow ACP with a needle and syringe next to it  which I thought might not be hers


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## khalswitz (28 October 2013)

Pammy Hutton told us at a demo that they do contain a banned substance, and she's done a lot of high level stuff...

I know menthol is prohibited, don;t know if they contain that?


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## BeckyD (28 October 2013)

Just thinking more about this; several BE events I have been to have given out polos for the horses when you pick up your number.  Surely they wouldn't do this if polos were banned substance?!


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## Jane_Lou (28 October 2013)

BeckyD said:



			Just thinking more about this; several BE events I have been to have given out polos for the horses when you pick up your number.  Surely they wouldn't do this if polos were banned substance?!
		
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Good Point - Carlton for one always gives you polos when you pick up your number.


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## HD15 (28 October 2013)

khalswitz said:



			I know menthol is prohibited, don;t know if they contain that?
		
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They would contain menthol because it is a component in mint oil which is in the polos.  But menthol isn't banned, at least it isn't any longer.  I've checked all of the FEI materials - it isn't listed anywhere....


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## Gamebird (28 October 2013)

OK, here are some facts:

Dope testing can and does happen at BE.
Dope testing can and does happen at BS.
Dope testing can and does happen at BD (regional level and above)
Dope testing can and does happen at RC (area and national comps)

It's not just FEI. People need to get into the culture of thinking about this much, much earlier.


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## khalswitz (28 October 2013)

HD15 said:



			They would contain menthol because it is a component in mint oil which is in the polos.  But menthol isn't banned, at least it isn't any longer.  I've checked all of the FEI materials - it isn't listed anywhere....
		
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I know it's BHA prohibited, haven't checked the FEI. 

Also there's the fact that you can throw false positives. Perhaps Polos throw a false positive due to chemical structure of one of the flavourings etc, and therefore can cause false positive results? Would explain why vets etc say not to feed them.


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## HD15 (28 October 2013)

khalswitz said:



			I know it's BHA prohibited
		
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I bet that's where confusion comes from is that it is BHA but not FEI.


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## khalswitz (28 October 2013)

Gamebird said:



			OK, here are some facts:

Dope testing can and does happen at BE.
Dope testing can and does happen at BS.
Dope testing can and does happen at BD (regional level and above)
Dope testing can and does happen at RC (area and national comps)

It's not just FEI. People need to get into the culture of thinking about this much, much earlier.
		
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Yes, well aware of this. But they all use the FEI prohibited substances lists don't they? Certainly when I've competed I've always been referred to their list. Hence the discussion re:FEI. 

One member of a local RC team (not my own) got disqualified at Nationals following a drugs test. Rider wasn't aware of hygiene and anti-contamination procedures, and not entirely up to date with prohibited substances. Mortified to have travelled for NE Scotland to Lincoln to end like that... lets the team down too. I remember their RC telling us as a warning of what can happen!


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## khalswitz (28 October 2013)

Found this article on FEI fly sprays... menthol and tea tree, both of which are terpenes, are listed as banned from use in fly sprays under FEI rules.

http://www.raseveterinarycentre.com/Fly Repelants.pdf

However still no list of terpenes under FEI clean sport page?

ETA Apparently it is a local anaesthetic and counter-irritant.


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## Elf On A Shelf (28 October 2013)

If you fed your horse 6+ packets of polos or similar up to 2 hours before a dope test then you would test positive for excessive sugar in the blood. Same as if you feed a shed load of carrots just before. 

So unless anyone wants their horse to have a super duper mega fresh breath just before they hit the competition arena you should be quite safe!


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## HD15 (28 October 2013)

khalswitz said:



			Found this article on FEI fly sprays... menthol and tea tree, both of which are terpenes, are listed as banned from use in fly sprays under FEI rules.

http://www.raseveterinarycentre.com/Fly Repelants.pdf

However still no list of terpenes under FEI clean sport page?
		
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 well they still aren't on the banned substances database...http://prohibitedsubstancesdatabase.feicleansport.org/.


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## khalswitz (28 October 2013)

HD15 said:



 well they still aren't on the banned substances database...http://prohibitedsubstancesdatabase.feicleansport.org/.
		
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Yeah I looked through it, even looked up the chemical names. Oh well, good news for polos I guess!!


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## dieseldog (28 October 2013)

Gamebird said:



			OK, here are some facts:

Dope testing can and does happen at BE.
Dope testing can and does happen at BS.
Dope testing can and does happen at BD (regional level and above)
Dope testing can and does happen at RC (area and national comps)

It's not just FEI. People need to get into the culture of thinking about this much, much earlier.
		
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But are polos dope or dope?


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## popsdosh (29 October 2013)

khalswitz said:



			I know it's BHA prohibited, haven't checked the FEI. 

Also there's the fact that you can throw false positives. Perhaps Polos throw a false positive due to chemical structure of one of the flavourings etc, and therefore can cause false positive results? Would explain why vets etc say not to feed them.
		
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Menthol is not listed as a prohibited substance in racing! However racing does operate slightly differently in that basically any substance that the chief vet feels could affect a horses performance is banned.This is whether it shows in a sample or not. I think a lot of this myth about polos in racing comes from the ability to give other things with them so you would be a total numbskull to give them to a horse at a race meeting.


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## khalswitz (29 October 2013)

popsdosh said:



			Menthol is not listed as a prohibited substance in racing! However racing does operate slightly differently in that basically any substance that the chief vet feels could affect a horses performance is banned.This is whether it shows in a sample or not. I think a lot of this myth about polos in racing comes from the ability to give other things with them so you would be a total numbskull to give them to a horse at a race meeting.
		
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Menthol IS prohibited.

"No use before racing, no use on horses to be tested, and not bought into the sampling box as contains menthol, a prohibited substance"

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/raceday.asp

They don't operate a full list of prohibited drugs the way the FEI do, but there are still drugs that are prohibited full stop. Menthol is one. It acts as a local anaesthetic, therefore comes under these rules:

http://rules.britishhorseracing.com/Orders-and-rules&staticID=126284&single=1&fromsearch=1


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## popsdosh (29 October 2013)

khalswitz said:



			Menthol IS prohibited.

"No use before racing, no use on horses to be tested, and not bought into the sampling box as contains menthol, a prohibited substance"

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/raceday.asp

They don't operate a full list of prohibited drugs the way the FEI do, but there are still drugs that are prohibited full stop. Menthol is one. It acts as a local anaesthetic, therefore comes under these rules:

http://rules.britishhorseracing.com/Orders-and-rules&staticID=126284&single=1&fromsearch=1

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No menthol in polo mints!


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## TableDancer (29 October 2013)

To the very best of my knowledge there is no problem in feeding polos and competing from a drug testing POV. I have competed FEI for many years and have been tested three time with three different horses and polos/extra strong mints are part of our regime as they are for many riders. I know one rider whose helpers used to give a particular horse a whole packet just before his dressage test to ease some teeth/grinding issues and produce lots of lovely white saliva - this horse was placed at Badminton many times and must have been tested. Urban myth I think.


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## HD15 (29 October 2013)

popsdosh said:



			No menthol in polo mints!
		
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There is   Menthol is a component of mint oil.  In peppermint oil it can be 50-80% depending on where the mint is grown.  

http://www.ocado.com/webshop/product/Polo-Original-Multipack-/23389011

But at any rate it's looking good for polo mints in competitions governed using the FEI substance lists


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## khalswitz (29 October 2013)

popsdosh said:



			No menthol in polo mints!
		
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That's what I asked earlier!!! I asked if there WAS because I know menthol is banned by BHA.


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## TarrSteps (29 October 2013)

I would imagine menthol would flag as a topical prep but unless you're rubbing a whole case of Polos on your horse's legs then I can't see it being an issue.

Gamebird has a point, re this not being all about FEI lists. And no, the other disciplines and levels do not all use that list so if there is a reason for concern check with the relevant governing body. 

The part that bugs me is the whole point is INTENT. Okay, the FEI has been heavy handed in this area but generally people who get caught, with a few exceptions, get caught because they think the rules don't apply to them! There are also all sorts of things that the cannot test reliably for that are also against the rules and they rely on people's honour to uphold those rules. As I am fond of saying, technically calmers contravene the rules but people use them blithely, not because they don't know they're against the rules, but because they know they can't get caught!


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## Capriole (29 October 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Gamebird has a point, re this not being all about FEI lists. And no, the other disciplines and levels do not all use that list so if there is a reason for concern check with the relevant governing body.
		
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Tbf though, the thread/question wasn't actually about the FEI, it was simply asking if polo mints contained a banned substance for competition horses (unspecified sphere and unspecified organising body).


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## ArcticFox (29 October 2013)

Capriole said:



			Tbf though, the thread/question wasn't actually about the FEI, it was simply asking if polo mints contained a banned substance for competition horses (unspecified sphere and unspecified organising body).
		
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I think its because in a later post I put that I was aiming to compete next year in a 1* and was looking into things so can understand the response.  I do understand that BE, BD and BS all follow dope testing plans and i already am super paranoid about meds getting into a competing horse etc (esp as the other one is always broken) but I started the post as I had been told about polo's recently and I wanted clarification.


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## oldvic (29 October 2013)

Many racehorses are given polos or extra strong mints including Gold Cup winners so presumably they don't test positive under Jockey Club rules and 4* horses have also been given them without problems. Maybe if you fed them in industrial quantities it would be different but some shouldn't hurt.


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## khalswitz (29 October 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Gamebird has a point, re this not being all about FEI lists. And no, the other disciplines and levels do not all use that list so if there is a reason for concern check with the relevant governing body.
		
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All the organisations that run under BEF Anti-Doping and Medication Control rules (i.e. BD, BS and BE for sure) use the FEI Banned and Controlled substances list. The guidelines for drug testing are similar to those used by FEI but not identical.

http://www.bef.co.uk/Information_fo...uine_Anti_Doping_&_Controlled_Medication.html

ETA in addition to BE, BD and BS, BEFAR is also run by the Pony Club, BHS (And therefore BRC), British Equestrian Vaulting, British Carriagedriving, British Reining, Endurance GB, RDA, British Horseball, Mounted Games Association, UK Polocrosse Association. Therefore most equestrian competition disciplines in the UK are run under the FEI substance list.


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## MiaBella (29 October 2013)

You can't also rely on the 'xxxx has been fed that for many years and been tested and was ok so it must be ok' the tests improve each year and stuff that wasn't picked up on before can now be detected. 

There are many products that are 'ok to use becuase they don't show up on a dope test' that will suddenly show up when a new test is developed.


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## Gamebird (29 October 2013)

khalswitz said:



			All the organisations that run under BEF Anti-Doping and Medication Control rules (i.e. BD, BS and BE for sure) use the FEI Banned and Controlled substances list. The guidelines for drug testing are similar to those used by FEI but not identical.

http://www.bef.co.uk/Information_fo...uine_Anti_Doping_&_Controlled_Medication.html

ETA in addition to BE, BD and BS, BEFAR is also run by the Pony Club, BHS (And therefore BRC), British Equestrian Vaulting, British Carriagedriving, British Reining, Endurance GB, RDA, British Horseball, Mounted Games Association, UK Polocrosse Association. Therefore most equestrian competition disciplines in the UK are run under the FEI substance list.
		
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I *KNOW* that they all, bar racing, use the FEI list. Believe me, it is something that I deal with every day. What I was trying to say is that most people seem to think that testing is confined to the FEI levels of the different disciplines and don't worry about it much lower down. For instance I know someone that sedated their horse to clip it the other week, two days before a BE event and couldn't even see why it might be a problem. Most people that do BE90/low level BS/BD don't even have dope testing on their radar. Horses are tested at much lower levels than most people realise and it makes me mad that they only start to think about competing 'cleanly' (whether that be by intent or by contamination) when they reach a certain level in the sport. The rules (and the testing) apply from the bottom up.


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## ester (29 October 2013)

I guess most people at the bottom have less to lose though, hence less bothered about being uber clean etc.


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## TarrSteps (29 October 2013)

Gamebird said:



			I *KNOW* that they all, bar racing, use the FEI list. Believe me, it is something that I deal with every day. What I was trying to say is that most people seem to think that testing is confined to the FEI levels of the different disciplines and don't worry about it much lower down. For instance I know someone that sedated their horse to clip it the other week, two days before a BE event and couldn't even see why it might be a problem. Most people that do BE90/low level BS/BD don't even have dope testing on their radar. Horses are tested at much lower levels than most people realise and it makes me mad that they only start to think about competing 'cleanly' (whether that be by intent or by contamination) when they reach a certain level in the sport. The rules (and the testing) apply from the bottom up.
		
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I think, actually, it was a shot at my comment that you should not assume every discipline uses the FEI lists. It does seem to be more or less the case in the UK, to be fair, but it's not necessarily true elsewhere.

Which makes the above point even more valid! We had a thread run not that long ago about giving horses antibiotics by injection before competing and half the thread went by before someone pointed out that some antibiotics are injected with an local anaesthetic because they are so uncomfortable. Obviously this will show on a test.

Even my calmer rant has some practical interest. Some calmers do not list all ingredients and are a bit cagey about giving them out. Check before you buy! 

Is everyone out checking their hedgerows for periwinkle?


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## TarrSteps (29 October 2013)

ester said:



			I guess most people at the bottom have less to lose though, hence less bothered about being uber clean etc.
		
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I think in many cases they genuinely don't know. But yes, lots of people think cheating doesn't really count unless you win.


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## khalswitz (29 October 2013)

Gamebird said:



			I *KNOW* that they all, bar racing, use the FEI list. Believe me, it is something that I deal with every day. What I was trying to say is that most people seem to think that testing is confined to the FEI levels of the different disciplines and don't worry about it much lower down. For instance I know someone that sedated their horse to clip it the other week, two days before a BE event and couldn't even see why it might be a problem. Most people that do BE90/low level BS/BD don't even have dope testing on their radar. Horses are tested at much lower levels than most people realise and it makes me mad that they only start to think about competing 'cleanly' (whether that be by intent or by contamination) when they reach a certain level in the sport. The rules (and the testing) apply from the bottom up.
		
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I do agree there. Personally, competing at all, even unaff, I am very aware of what I have fed my horse. Our yard isn't even super competitive and yet we have hygiene and contamination protocols that we all follow. Even outside of the idea of dope testing the idea of my horse being accidentally exposed to a drug via feed or contamination of other horse's drugs is anathema. 

The number of people that compete lower levels on bute, or acp horses who are tricky, I am pretty shocked by. Regardless of testing it goes against both the spirit and the letter of the rules. If they get caught I kind of feel it is their own fault - the rules are there for anyone to read, and ignorance is no excuse for rule-breaking - which in the lower levels this is what it often is.


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## meardsall_millie (29 October 2013)

ester said:



			I guess most people at the bottom have less to lose though, hence less bothered about being uber clean etc.
		
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But surely the potential for a ban for several years and a couple of grands worth of fine would be fairly significant to most amateurs?

Whilst I take Tarrsteps' point about intention, as we all know, ignorance is no defence.


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## khalswitz (29 October 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			I think, actually, it was a shot at my comment that you should not assume every discipline uses the FEI lists. It does seem to be more or less the case in the UK, to be fair, but it's not necessarily true elsewhere.

Which makes the above point even more valid! We had a thread run not that long ago about giving horses antibiotics by injection before competing and half the thread went by before someone pointed out that some antibiotics are injected with an local anaesthetic because they are so uncomfortable. Obviously this will show on a test.

Even my calmer rant has some practical interest. Some calmers do not list all ingredients and are a bit cagey about giving them out. Check before you buy! 

Is everyone out checking their hedgerows for periwinkle? 

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Sorry I didn't mean to sound rude, I promise! Just trying to explain why all the fuss about FEI... not because I think that's the only place you get tested, but because it's pretty much their rules that get followed by everybody...

And I agree about calmers. Even if the ingredients don't specifically state something illegal, the spirit of the clean sport rules is being broken. BHA rules would certainly disallow them! I admit I have used calmers in the past but NEVER to compete as I agree with you - I've used them to get my very sharp horse used to riding in groups of horses, when I have trailered out for lessons etc, but in a long period with no competing, and he won't have had a calmer for six weeks prior to his first comp date.


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## ester (29 October 2013)

tarrsteps I wasn't thinking not counting if you don't win per se. More that if I am tottling off to do my BRC area champs once a year I'm not likely to get too anal about cross contamination/feeding polos. If my horse were to be tested positive and we got even a life ban from BRC it wouldn't be the end of my world. 

Whereas if you are a pro... who makes a living from competing the repercussions are much greater.

(eta not talking giving a drug and not knowing it is against rules here, just polos/cross contamination sort of level!)


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## suzi (29 October 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			I think in many cases they genuinely don't know. But yes, lots of people think cheating doesn't really count unless you win.
		
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Gamebird said:



			I *KNOW* that they all, bar racing, use the FEI list. Believe me, it is something that I deal with every day. What I was trying to say is that most people seem to think that testing is confined to the FEI levels of the different disciplines and don't worry about it much lower down. For instance I know someone that sedated their horse to clip it the other week, two days before a BE event and couldn't even see why it might be a problem. Most people that do BE90/low level BS/BD don't even have dope testing on their radar. Horses are tested at much lower levels than most people realise and it makes me mad that they only start to think about competing 'cleanly' (whether that be by intent or by contamination) when they reach a certain level in the sport. The rules (and the testing) apply from the bottom up.
		
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I think there is also an acceptance of deliberate use.....I know of someone who purposefully gave a horse bute the day before an affiliated competition just to be sure the horse wasn't going to be at all stiff the day of the competition.   I doubt the possibility of testing was even considered, or if it was I expect it was dismissed as highly improbable....


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## Gamebird (29 October 2013)

ester said:



			If my horse were to be tested positive and we got even a life ban from BRC it wouldn't be the end of my world.
		
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Just to give people an idea, two horses who recently tested positive in BD young horse classes were fined £1500 and £1750. That's not small change. I wouldn't be able to pay it without selling the horse.


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## TarrSteps (29 October 2013)

I don't know if they have transparent lists of bans and fines here but years ago I found a list from my "country of origin" and it made for interesting reading. A surprising number of people had got caught and the rest of us never knew a thing about it, they just took a little holiday or were "out with an injury". Even the FEI lists can make interesting reading as certainly, not every infraction makes the papers. I don't think people should assume it only happens at the top levels!


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## meardsall_millie (29 October 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			I don't know if they have transparent lists of bans and fines here but years ago I found a list from my "country of origin" and it made for interesting reading. A surprising number of people had got caught and the rest of us never knew a thing about it, they just took a little holiday or were "out with an injury". Even the FEI lists can make interesting reading as certainly, not every infraction makes the papers. I don't think people should assume it only happens at the top levels!
		
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I've noticed a small write-up in the relevant discipline magazine (which I think is where GB got her info on the most recent fines from) from time to time, and there's also sometimes a small mention in H&H.  Other than that I'm not sure it's widely publicised.



Gamebird said:



			Just to give people an idea, two horses who recently tested positive in BD young horse classes were fined £1500 and £1750. That's not small change. I wouldn't be able to pay it without selling the horse.
		
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Exactly - hence my point above!


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## dieseldog (29 October 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			As I am fond of saying, technically calmers contravene the rules but people use them blithely, not because they don't know they're against the rules, but because they know they can't get caught!
		
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I think people use them 'blithely' as there are FEI legal ones.  If it says on the pack it is FEI legal people are going to take assurance from that.  You are right they aren't going to 'get caught' as they have not actually done anything wrong.  I know you are going to come back with you  are altering a horses a nature by feeding it a calmer, but where do you draw the line?  You can alter a horses performance with how much water you give a horse, or if you feed it oats for more energy - that is enhancing a horses performance too.


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## ester (29 October 2013)

No not small change but I still think different to limiting your income for the duration of a ban/repercussions of sponsorship owners etc etc if you are pro


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## popsdosh (29 October 2013)

dieseldog said:



			I think people use them 'blithely' as there are FEI legal ones.  If it says on the pack it is FEI legal people are going to take assurance from that.  You are right they aren't going to 'get caught' as they have not actually done anything wrong.  I know you are going to come back with you  are altering a horses a nature by feeding it a calmer, but where do you draw the line?  You can alter a horses performance with how much water you give a horse, or if you feed it oats for more energy - that is enhancing a horses performance too.
		
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You are totally wrong there is no such thing as an FEI legal calmer .The manufacturer is misleading riders if they say their product is FEI legal and they merely mean there is nothing that can be detected on a test.It is totally illegal to give a horse in FEI(and indeed at BE) competition any substance with the intention of altering its going even if said substance is totally useless. It is the intent that is against the rules.This rule was brought in to cover any eventuality and is very similar to the racing approach to misuse of substances.It is cheating the same as any other offence


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## TarrSteps (29 October 2013)

^ That.  

It is technically illegal to withhold water, too, although I know it gets done and there is no way to detect it. 

Part of the fuss re the doping scandal in cycling was because the testing, temporarily at least, won the arms race and they caught people using procedures and medications that had previously been difficult or impossible to detect. This is also what happened, by the way, with Reserpine. The stuff was around for years but tricky to test for. When the test came in there were a flurry of detections in the US and then people wised up and largely stopped using it to cheat.


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## dieseldog (29 October 2013)

popsdosh said:



			It is totally illegal to give a horse in FEI(and indeed at BE) competition any substance with the intention of altering its going even if said substance is totally useless. It is the intent that is against the rules.This rule was brought in to cover any eventuality and is very similar to the racing approach to misuse of substances.It is cheating the same as any other offence
		
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In that case it is illegal to feed your horse any form of hard feed/haylage/ anything really - how far are you going to take it?  People feed different feeds and feed companies develop different feeds to alter a horses going.

If it is written on the packs that they are FEI legal I think the rider has done due diligence and chosen something that to the best of their knowledge is legal to feed their horse.  If they got drug tested and it was traced back to the calmer and they suffered a loss because of it they would have a good case against the manufacturer?


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## khalswitz (29 October 2013)

dieseldog said:



			If they got drug tested and it was traced back to the calmer and they suffered a loss because of it they would have a good case against the manufacturer?
		
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No. FEI rules state that it is the competitors responsibility to know and accept the consequences of anything they give their horses. You can't blame the manufacturer, just accept that that is where your contamination has been and that you took the risk in feeding it.

Also all these feeds/products all say in small print that there can be risk of contamination and that they cannot be held liable. They know the game too well. It's up to the rider.


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## popsdosh (30 October 2013)

dieseldog said:



			In that case it is illegal to feed your horse any form of hard feed/haylage/ anything really - how far are you going to take it?  People feed different feeds and feed companies develop different feeds to alter a horses going.

If it is written on the packs that they are FEI legal I think the rider has done due diligence and chosen something that to the best of their knowledge is legal to feed their horse.  If they got drug tested and it was traced back to the calmer and they suffered a loss because of it they would have a good case against the manufacturer?
		
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Please read the FEI rules it is very clearly stated  that you cannot administer calmers!!!! Just administering them is an offence not the actual presence in the system. BE also have this rule !


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## TarrSteps (30 October 2013)

This is also germane to the question of testing. The reason calmers and other 'natural' remedies have not been subjected to the rigorous testing consumers sometimes call for is it's in no one's best interests. One of two things is going to happen - the preparation will be found to be benign or it will be found to have an effect. The former is obviously an issue for marketing, the latter for licensing and competition use. 

The FEI rules are written with this in mind. The onus is not on them to test every possible substance - if someone even.THINKS.it might work, it's technically banned.

In reality, of course, people will keep on as they are but it raises some interesting questions considering some of the things people are quick to label 'cheating'.


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## popsdosh (30 October 2013)

Agree its all down to peoples perception of cheating .In reality what is the difference between somebody using a calmer or using for example Reserpine as they are both after the same ends.If you allow the use of calmers to keep a horse level headed do you then have to allow Bute to keep somebody elses horse level or for that matter PSD surgery.All these are infringements of the rules but some people choose to ignore them!


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## popsdosh (30 October 2013)

Just to help here is the FEI ruling.
3. The use of any herbal or natural product to affect the performance of a horse or pony in a calming (tranquillising) manner or an energising (stimulant) manner is expressly forbidden by the FEI regulations. The use of a calming product during competition may also have important safety consequences.


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## vallin (30 October 2013)

Ate things like 'red cell' also considered doping under the same light? (Genuine question)


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## popsdosh (30 October 2013)

vallin said:



			Ate things like 'red cell' also considered doping under the same light? (Genuine question)
		
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It would be decided by your intent in using it!


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## oldvic (30 October 2013)

One top rider always says if it works it's not allowed!! If you don't want to risk getting caught, don't use anything. However a few polos fed as a treat don't have any intent!!


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## TableDancer (30 October 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			It is technically illegal to withhold water, too, although I know it gets done and there is no way to detect it. 
.
		
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It does indeed get done, but FEI stewards are perhaps not as naive as some people assume, amd are getting increasingly proactive. At Weston Park, the (very nice and very switched on) FEI steward was patrolling the stables late evening on the nights prior to the dressage days and, on finding several horses without water, summoning the connections to rectify the situation. She was also quietly patrolling on XC night to see what was going on and to make sure horses got the necessary peace to rest.


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## dieseldog (30 October 2013)

popsdosh said:



			Just to help here is the FEI ruling.
3. The use of any herbal or natural product to affect the performance of a horse or pony in a calming (tranquillising) manner or an energising (stimulant) manner is expressly forbidden by the FEI regulations. The use of a calming product during competition may also have important safety consequences.
		
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So feeding your horse is out. As food is full of natural things and herbs. You feed it with the intent of affecting the horses performance. Take table dancers example of polos before a dressage test. That is cheating as they are doing it with the intent of changing the horses performance. I used to feed one of mine oats as he was really slow. That was with intent and therefore illegal.


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## dieseldog (30 October 2013)

khalswitz said:



			No. FEI rules state that it is the competitors responsibility to know and accept the consequences of anything they give their horses. You can't blame the manufacturer, just accept that that is where your contamination has been and that you took the risk in feeding it.

Also all these feeds/products all say in small print that there can be risk of contamination and that they cannot be held liable. They know the game too well. It's up to the rider.
		
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I think you take your ban and fine and Sue the manufacturer for you r loss. People aren't feeding calmers because they want to cheat, but because they believe they are doing nothing wrong as per the packaging.


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## khalswitz (30 October 2013)

dieseldog said:



			I think you take your ban and fine and Sue the manufacturer for you r loss. People aren't feeding calmers because they want to cheat, but because they believe they are doing nothing wrong as per the packaging.
		
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Apart from it is cheating. And the FEI stance is that it is up to the rider, not the feed company.

Anyone saying a calmer is FEI approved is lying, it just won't come up positive on a drug test.


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## dieseldog (30 October 2013)

khalswitz said:



			Apart from it is cheating. And the FEI stance is that it is up to the rider, not the feed company.

Anyone saying a calmer is FEI approved is lying, it just won't come up positive on a drug test.
		
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Understand what you are saying, but when it says on the packaging and advertising that it is fei legal why would you not believe them? If they are all lying like you say then you would have a pretty good case against them for the losses you have suffered if you did test positive.


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## khalswitz (30 October 2013)

dieseldog said:



			Understand what you are saying, but when it says on the packaging and advertising that it is fei legal why would you not believe them? If they are all lying like you say then you would have a pretty good case against them for the losses you have suffered if you did test positive.
		
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Because you would have to look at the exact wording they use. These companies aren't daft enough to make bold claims like that when they could be sued.


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## popsdosh (30 October 2013)

dieseldog said:



			Understand what you are saying, but when it says on the packaging and advertising that it is fei legal why would you not believe them? If they are all lying like you say then you would have a pretty good case against them for the losses you have suffered if you did test positive.
		
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You dont seem to comprehend that you dont need to test positive just using one is an offence so you cant exactly sue them for that could you!!!


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## ihatework (30 October 2013)

The supplements don't say FEI approved (generally). They are normally worded along the lines of 'Does not contain FEI prohibited substances'. There is a subtle difference.

It's an interesting debate though.

Taking the woding quoted by posdosh: 3. The use of any herbal or natural product to affect the performance of a horse or pony in a calming (tranquillising) manner or an energising (stimulant) manner is expressly forbidden by the FEI regulations. The use of a calming product during competition may also have important safety consequences.

Genuine question - what if you wanted to feed your horse a 'calmer' not with any desire to calm/tranquilise but rather to increase and aid their focus? i.e. less distracted/spooky? 

Take feeding a packet of polos just prior to a dressage test - with the aim to increase salivation under the illusion this will make the horse better to the contact and improve performance?

And while I'm on the subject - does anyone know if there is a list of allowed/banned substances a rider can take them selves?


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## TarrSteps (30 October 2013)

Re the rider list, yes, of course there is. 

Jonathon Millar (son of Ian) is currently banned indefinitely as he is taking a medication for, if I remember correctly, early symptoms of MS that's on the list. They have tried to get him reinstated on the grounds that he is not taking it for performance enhancement and his doctor has confirmed it does not affect him at the current dosage, it's only to delay progression of the disease, but the FEI doesn't see it that way.

I know other people who have been prescribed pain medication, beta blockers etc for valid medical reasons with make it impossible for them to compete.


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## ihatework (30 October 2013)

Where do I find such a list? Am I being a bit thick?
The clean sport website seems to indicate it is specifically for horses.


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## TarrSteps (30 October 2013)

I struggle with the FEI site at the best of times, I can't face it on the phone, but I'll look later.

My friends who have been on teams have had to pee in a cup. I even know of someone who got caught in a random squad test and was given a warning. He never made the team so it went under the radar but they were pretty clear with him that, if it got that far, he could expect to pee in a LOT of cups!


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## khalswitz (30 October 2013)

ihatework said:



			Genuine question - what if you wanted to feed your horse a 'calmer' not with any desire to calm/tranquilise but rather to increase and aid their focus? i.e. less distracted/spooky?
		
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I would say still means improving performance.

However if you are feeding magnesium to address a deficiency in the diet? That happens to cause them to be sharp and spooky? That is a grey line between improving feeding to best balance the diet and feeding for performance enhancement.


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## khalswitz (30 October 2013)

ihatework said:



			Where do I find such a list? Am I being a bit thick?
The clean sport website seems to indicate it is specifically for horses.
		
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There is a link to rider's list on FEI pages, not the direct clean sport website.

http://www.fei.org/fei/your-role/athletes/anti-doping-control/basics 

the link to the list is somewhere from here...


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## dieseldog (30 October 2013)

popsdosh said:



			You dont seem to comprehend that you dont need to test positive just using one is an offence so you cant exactly sue them for that could you!!!
		
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I think you could as manufacturers are making out that it is OK to feed their products as top Olympic horses are using it to win gold medals http://www.equifeast.com/English/Equifeast/WhatCustomersSay/dressage-laura-bechtolsheimer 

Surely Laura should have her medals taken off her as she clearly says in that endorsement that she is feeding the supplement to calm her horse.  If she is allowed to win gold medals whilst feeding it to her horse why wouldn't a normal person think it is OK to feed it to theirs too.


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## ihatework (30 October 2013)

khalswitz said:



			There is a link to rider's list on FEI pages, not the direct clean sport website.

http://www.fei.org/fei/your-role/athletes/anti-doping-control/basics 

the link to the list is somewhere from here...
		
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Fantastic, thank you. I was getting concerned the copious amounts of painkillers I take might be a bit of a party killer, as it is all okay


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## spookypony (30 October 2013)

Really interesting thread!

It seems to me that the wording of a lot of the rules is vague/problematic, and I wonder if that is to give whatever body decides if there has been an infraction some sort of wriggle room...as khalswitz pointed out earlier, the reason magnesium-based calmers are supposed to work is because they address a magnesium insufficiency: if the horse has enough magnesium, the calmer won't work. Does it then all come down to intent? E.g. a rider who is aware of this and is supplementing magnesium to address a perceived dietary imbalance is not culpable, but a rider who is _not_ aware, but who is using the calmer with the specific intent of gaining an advantage in competition, _is_ culpable? 

Where is the line drawn? As others have pointed out, we _all_ give things to our horses or do things to them in order to (hopefully) improve performance. That's more or less the point of adopting a particular training regime, choosing among various (FEI-legal) foodstuffs and supplements, and the type of tack/gear we use. So where should the ethical line be drawn? Why are we banning substances at all? Are we specifically trying to curtail practices or substances that are harmful to the animal (possibly in the long term), when used in the necessary quantities? 

Another example is the current debate surrounding prascend/pergolide...


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## khalswitz (30 October 2013)

spookypony said:



			Really interesting thread!

It seems to me that the wording of a lot of the rules is vague/problematic, and I wonder if that is to give whatever body decides if there has been an infraction some sort of wriggle room...as khalswitz pointed out earlier, the reason magnesium-based calmers are supposed to work is because they address a magnesium insufficiency: if the horse has enough magnesium, the calmer won't work. Does it then all come down to intent? E.g. a rider who is aware of this and is supplementing magnesium to address a perceived dietary imbalance is not culpable, but a rider who is _not_ aware, but who is using the calmer with the specific intent of gaining an advantage in competition, _is_ culpable? 

Where is the line drawn? As others have pointed out, we _all_ give things to our horses or do things to them in order to (hopefully) improve performance. That's more or less the point of adopting a particular training regime, choosing among various (FEI-legal) foodstuffs and supplements, and the type of tack/gear we use. So where should the ethical line be drawn? Why are we banning substances at all? Are we specifically trying to curtail practices or substances that are harmful to the animal (possibly in the long term), when used in the necessary quantities? 

Another example is the current debate surrounding prascend/pergolide...
		
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Great post.


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## ester (30 October 2013)

ihatework said:



			Fantastic, thank you. I was getting concerned the copious amounts of painkillers I take might be a bit of a party killer, as it is all okay 

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I am giggling a bit at the thought of telling my doc to remember I'm an athlete as suggested 

Interesting to read that beta blockers are only listed as prohibited for some sports (not equestrian) as they came up earlier (and would be relevant to me).


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## ihatework (30 October 2013)

ester said:



			I am giggling a bit at the thought of telling my doc to remember I'm an athlete as suggested 

Interesting to read that beta blockers are only listed as prohibited for some sports (not equestrian) as they came up earlier (and would be relevant to me).
		
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If I told my doctor I was an athlete, he would probably take one look at me and refer me on to the mental health team!!


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## teapot (30 October 2013)

Really interesting thread - they've started dope testing at RDA Nationals in recent years too, which is a competition technically run under FEI rules...


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## Gamebird (30 October 2013)

I checked a few years ago for diazepam, which I was on at the time for my back, and that was allowed. Crazy! Especially as it works very well as an anxiolytic so would be a very good drug to take for anyone who was nervous/pressured about the competition.


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## siennamum (30 October 2013)

dieseldog said:



			I think you could as manufacturers are making out that it is OK to feed their products as top Olympic horses are using it to win gold medals http://www.equifeast.com/English/Equifeast/WhatCustomersSay/dressage-laura-bechtolsheimer 

Surely Laura should have her medals taken off her as she clearly says in that endorsement that she is feeding the supplement to calm her horse.  If she is allowed to win gold medals whilst feeding it to her horse why wouldn't a normal person think it is OK to feed it to theirs too.
		
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Well the point about Laura using a calmer to win an Olympic medal seems to being blithely ignored maybe it's incomprehensible.


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## ester (30 October 2013)

I was certainly expecting a longer list.


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## ester (30 October 2013)

siennamum said:



			Well the point about Laura using a calmer to win an Olympic medal seems to being blithely ignored maybe it's incomprehensible.
		
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Well it's calcium based- so will only make a difference if horse otherwise deficient like mag ones.


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## siennamum (30 October 2013)

And this product, aimed at competitive dressage horses is also illegal, despite it clearly stating on the website that it is FEI approved:

http://www.equiformnutrition.co.uk/...pplements-1/horse-calmers/excel-dressage.html


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## siennamum (30 October 2013)

ester said:



			Well it's calcium based- so will only make a difference if horse otherwise deficient like mag ones.
		
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That's irrelevant though. The point is, it is a calmer, and so Laura is cheating (well according to the great and good of H&HO)


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## dieseldog (30 October 2013)

ester said:



			Well it's calcium based- so will only make a difference if horse otherwise deficient like mag ones.
		
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But her intent, from that endorsement, is clear that she is feeding it to calm the horse.  Under Pops and Tarrs definition of the rules that is clearly cheating.


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## ester (30 October 2013)

what defines a calmer though? I think it can be very much different to feeding non- heating feed sometimes.

I supplement my boy with both calcium and magnesium (and a few other things) base on an analysis of my hay/grazing.. I am certainly not using it as a calmer as that is the opposite to what I'd need. 

It is only because CCC is marketed as such.. there are other similar supplements advertised as general mineral supps so are they then ok?

Right confusing isn't it!

ETA yeah dd - confusing  so long as you don't write down your intent on the internet is that ok?


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## khalswitz (30 October 2013)

siennamum said:



			That's irrelevant though. The point is, it is a calmer, and so Laura is cheating (well according to the great and good of H&HO)
		
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Actually, if you had read the full discussion, we said that the FEI statement implies that all calmers are banned, but that we questioned how you would argue a case for treating a dietary deficiency. Although, in theory, by using a product to calm a horse you are breaking the spirit, if not the letter of the rules.

So magnesium and calcium based 'calmers' that act to improve dietary balance rather than calmers that try to artificially relax the horse (I know valerian is banned but other 'natural' products claim to have the same effect) are a real grey area - not irrelevant like you've said as it is the only argument that they also are not illegal, and will probably be the defence of any manufacturer or in the case a rider was ever queried. 

And since you can't really test for magnesium or calcium, a calmer fed daily in the feed will be very hard for the FEI to pick up. A syringe of calmer before competing however would probably get picked up on fairly sharply and I would be surprised if you saw any at high levels.


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## siennamum (30 October 2013)

Well even top riders clearly state they use calmers online, so they really, really need to read this thread to understand the error of their ways, give back their rosettes and realise how bad they have been. 

As for Bach Rescue Remedy - work of the devil!!!


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## dieseldog (30 October 2013)

Ester - I'm with you on this, I have no idea where you draw the line, I just think it is wrong for people to say that riders are deliberately breaking the rules with their 'intent' when they are feeding products that are being openly endorsed by top riders who are competing at Olympic level.  I think if you take it to the extreme you should not feed anything to your horse that changes its nature.


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## siennamum (30 October 2013)

khalswitz said:



			Actually, if you had read the full discussion, we said that the FEI statement implies that all calmers are banned, but that we questioned how you would argue a case for treating a dietary deficiency. Although, in theory, by using a product to calm a horse you are breaking the spirit, if not the letter of the rules.

So magnesium and calcium based 'calmers' that act to improve dietary balance rather than calmers that try to artificially relax the horse (I know valerian is banned but other 'natural' products claim to have the same effect) are a real grey area - not irrelevant like you've said as it is the only argument that they also are not illegal, and will probably be the defence of any manufacturer or in the case a rider was ever queried. 

And since you can't really test for magnesium or calcium, a calmer fed daily in the feed will be very hard for the FEI to pick up. A syringe of calmer before competing however would probably get picked up on fairly sharply and I would be surprised if you saw any at high levels.
		
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Actually!! I have read the whole thread & it hasn't made your backpeddling any more comprehensible.


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## dieseldog (30 October 2013)

khalswitz said:



			Actually, if you had read the full discussion, we said that the FEI statement implies that all calmers are banned, but that we questioned how you would argue a case for treating a dietary deficiency. Although, in theory, by using a product to calm a horse you are breaking the spirit, if not the letter of the rules.

So magnesium and calcium based 'calmers' that act to improve dietary balance rather than calmers that try to artificially relax the horse (I know valerian is banned but other 'natural' products claim to have the same effect) are a real grey area - not irrelevant like you've said as it is the only argument that they also are not illegal, and will probably be the defence of any manufacturer or in the case a rider was ever queried. 

And since you can't really test for magnesium or calcium, a calmer fed daily in the feed will be very hard for the FEI to pick up. A syringe of calmer before competing however would probably get picked up on fairly sharply and I would be surprised if you saw any at high levels.
		
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So even though a calmer is called a calmer by the manufacturers, they are not really calmers


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## TarrSteps (30 October 2013)

dieseldog said:



			But her intent, from that endorsement, is clear that she is feeding it to calm the horse.  Under Pops and Tarrs definition of the rules that is clearly cheating.
		
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No need to get snarky. It's not 'our' definition. Popdosh quoted the relevant rule, correct? You might make a case for something like magnesium, or calcium, or a particular feed as they contain the essential building blocks of life and optimising nutrition. They don't test because they contain substances that are in horses anyway. Once you get into say, camomile, then the intent is pretty clear isn't it?

Although, technically, if you're going to use the reasoning that only the insertion of a non naturally occurring substance 'counts' then withholding water and blood doping are okay, too.

As to why it's 'okay' for Laura, you would have to ask her or the FEI. 

No one, here or in real life, is under the impression people are going to stop using calmers. People are virtually addicted to them, if you believe forums!  I'm genuinely interested though, how are they different than using acepromazine or, for that matter reserpine? Why is one okay and the other not? Because one is on a list and another isn't? Because one has proven testing and the other only anecdotal evidence.

The fact is, people are always going to make their own choices and draw the line where they see fit. It's not about what a random company - with a vested interest - or a top rider says is okay, it's what YOU believe is best for you. If the goal is to not fail a test then that's relatively easily done!


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## TarrSteps (30 October 2013)

dieseldog said:



			So even though a calmer is called a calmer by the manufacturers, they are not really calmers
		
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That would be marketing. 

I have to say, I'd never heard of 'calmers' until I moved here. 

No one is accusing anyone of anything. I presume the 'top riders' have read the relevant rules and feel comfortable that they are well within the rules. And I assume that anyone else competing has done likewise.


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## siennamum (30 October 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			The fact is, people are always going to make their own choices and draw the line where they see fit. It's not about what a random company - with a vested interest - or a top rider says is okay, it's what YOU believe is best for you. If the goal is to not fail a test then that's relatively easily done!
		
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Surely the goal is simply to do the best you can, within the rules........ Which is all most calmers - and polos allow you to do. In this thread it seems you and others are either misinterpreting the ruling, or the industry and top tiers of the sport are corrupt and cheating is widespread.


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## ester (30 October 2013)

I'm getting right confused by all the references to Laura - and getting a bit of a guilt complex (real name!)


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## TarrSteps (30 October 2013)

Btw, someone said to me the other day that using an ear hat is a more obvious and significant form of 'cheating' than calmers. I thought that was interesting reasoning. Then I put a hat on the horse and went off to have a peaceful ride in a howling gale. 

On a personal note, I'm not bothered one jot by what other people do or don't do. But I think it's an interesting discussion worth having, especially when our sporting equipment has a pulse.


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## TarrSteps (30 October 2013)

siennamum said:



			Surely the goal is simply to do the best you can, within the rules........ Which is all most calmers - and polos allow you to do. In this thread it seems you and others are either misinterpreting the ruling, or the industry and top tiers of the sport are corrupt and cheating is widespread.
		
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I'm curious, how do you interpret the specific wording? I'm not being smart, genuinely curious as to where you feel the rule, as it is written, draws the line? (Not by what people actually do. People cheat. Hands up those of us who have never broken the speed limit or taken a pen home from the office! )


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## TarrSteps (30 October 2013)

ester said:



			I'm getting right confused by all the references to Laura - and getting a bit of a guilt  complex (real name!)
		
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But we can't call her 'Laura B' anymore! Very confusing!


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## dieseldog (30 October 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			No need to get snarky. It's not 'our' definition. Popdosh quoted the relevant rule, correct? You might make a case for something like magnesium, or calcium, or a particular feed as they contain the essential building blocks of life and optimising nutrition. They don't test because they contain substances that are in horses anyway. Once you get into say, camomile, then the intent is pretty clear isn't it?

Although, technically, if you're going to use the reasoning that only the insertion of a non naturally occurring substance 'counts' then withholding water and blood doping are okay, too.

As to why it's 'okay' for Laura, you would have to ask her or the FEI. 

No one, here or in real life, is under the impression people are going to stop using calmers. People are virtually addicted to them, if you believe forums!  I'm genuinely interested though, how are they different than using acepromazine or, for that matter reserpine? Why is one okay and the other not? Because one is on a list and another isn't? Because one has proven testing and the other only anecdotal evidence.

The fact is, people are always going to make their own choices and draw the line where they see fit. It's not about what a random company - with a vested interest - or a top rider says is okay, it's what YOU believe is best for you. If the goal is to not fail a test then that's relatively easily done!
		
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I am insulted by your first point, didn't realise i had got 'snarky' I thought we were having a debate, although thanks for the heads up that you are obviously snarked by trying to turn the thread around to character basing me. 

I am confused by your 2nd point, not sure where I have used that reasoning, don't even understand what you are trying to say.

It is obviously fine for Laura to feed her calmer as she still has her gold medal, I don't understand why it is fine for her to feed it, with the intent of calming her horse, even if it is by changing its mineral levels, and it is not fine for average joe rider to do the same, with the same product.

I haven't said anyone should stop feeding calmers, you have said that it is breaking FEI rules.  I think it is fine to feed one calmer compared to another as one says it doesn't contain FEI banned substances and the other is a FEI banned substance.

It is about what a random company says as they are marketing these products as not containing FEI banned substances, not every rider is a scientist, I don't think HHO is a representative sample of the riding community.

And Jock Paget would most certainly disagree with your final sentence.


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## khalswitz (30 October 2013)

siennamum said:



			Actually!! I have read the whole thread & it hasn't made your backpeddling any more comprehensible.
		
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How is it back peddling? Would you like me to quote the exact posts where we discussed whether meeting dietary deficiencies would count as a substance used to 'calm', and where we quoted the rules that the FEI have stating that any substance used to calm or excite is forbidden? It's called referencing if the point has previously been made. I'm not changing my point at all - it's all there in black and green if you would actually take a minute.


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## khalswitz (30 October 2013)

Out of interest, found this on the BE website:

"I have spoken to Nuprafeed for a definative answer on this as there must be thousands of people using similar stuff on their horses. I will post their response (as they asked me to do this) as some people are obviously alarming others.....


Hi Claire, 

DO NOT WORRY!!! It is not banned, it has past all the appropriate screenings
and is used all the time by our international riders. It is legal on every
continent, not only under our governing bodies. And you do not have to worry
about threshold levels because it is completely legal regardless of the
quantity given. 

It is not in any way a drug or a manipulative substance, it works because it
allows the horses' nervous and adrenaline system to function normally and is
actually very good for them. 

Thank you for making us aware of the comments, if you could reply to the
thread with this response we would be very grateful! 

Kind Regards,

For and on behalf of Nupafeed UK
Jemma

Tel: 01438 861 900
Fax: 01438 861 122
Email: jemma@nupafeed.net
Web: www.nupafeed.co.uk


and a follow up.......


Hello again!! 

I have had a chance to have a look at the thread and the confusion comes
from various changes in product classification. We are having a similar
nightmare with our labels at the moment and it is coming mostly from
complying with EU legislation. I think the problem is that they have to
tighten up on controlling drugs and the hazy ground between supplements and
drugs, unfortunately this filters down into very trivial matters with true
nutritional supplements. 

As the thread mentions, you are OK because it is something that is natural,
it actually only works because they are getting less than they need in their
diet, not because it is exerting any sort of sedative effect on the body.
And you definitely would not fail a dope test from using it. 

Kind Regards,

For and on behalf of Nupafeed UK
Jemma

Tel: 01438 861 900
Fax: 01438 861 122
Email: jemma@nupafeed.net
Web: www.nupafeed.co.uk"

BE responded with:

"Please see below an extract from the BE rulebook relating to the use of herbal or natural medicinal products:-

1. Riders, trainers, grooms and veterinarians are cautioned against the use of herbal medications, tonics, oral pastes and products of any kind, the ingredients and quantitative analysis of which are not known in detail. Many of these products can contain one or more prohibited substances.
2. Persons administering a herbal or so-called natural product to a horse or pony for health reasons or to affect its performance, having been informed that the plant origin of its ingredients do not violate the FEI regulations, may have been misinformed.
3. The use of any herbal or natural product to affect the performance of a horse or pony in a calming (tranquillising) manner or an energising (stimulant) manner is expressly forbidden by the FEI regulations. The use of a calming product during competition may also have important safety consequences.
4. The FEI does not test or approve herbal or natural products to verify a possible violation of the FEI rules and regulations. Therefore a claim that the product does not violate the FEI rules or is undetectable by drug testing is the sole responsibility of the manufacturer or individual making such a claim.
5. The use of a herbal or natural product may result in a positive test result, contrary to the claim by the manufacturer or marketing agent. Many prohibited substances (e.g. salicylatels, digitalis, reserpine) have their origin in plants and may be regarded as serious rule violations.
6. As the analytical techniques in the testing laboratory become more refined, the fact that these products have not been detected by testing in the past does not hold any guarantee for their safe use in competition.

I hope this clarifies the matter."

Looks from this thread that it is entirely up to the manufacturers - if ANYTHING in the calmers gets them caught out, or the tests update and can suddenly pick things up, then it is their fault, as the FEI and BE etc have warned us not to use them full stop.

So, in technicality, looks like the top riders using these ARE in technically contravention of the rules - however FEI isn't about to chase them on it as long as the tests aren't positive.

Full thread here: http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-...spx?topicid=5440&section=00010001000200490001


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## TarrSteps (30 October 2013)

dieseldog said:



			I am insulted by your first point, didn't realise i had got 'snarky' I thought we were having a debate, although thanks for the heads up that you are obviously snarked by trying to turn the thread around to character basing me. 

I am confused by your 2nd point, not sure where I have used that reasoning, don't even understand what you are trying to say.

It is obviously fine for Laura to feed her calmer as she still has her gold medal, I don't understand why it is fine for her to feed it, with the intent of calming her horse, even if it is by changing its mineral levels, and it is not fine for average joe rider to do the same, with the same product.

I haven't said anyone should stop feeding calmers, you have said that it is breaking FEI rules.  I think it is fine to feed one calmer compared to another as one says it doesn't contain FEI banned substances and the other is a FEI banned substance.

It is about what a random company says as they are marketing these products as not containing FEI banned substances, not every rider is a scientist, I don't think HHO is a representative sample of the riding community.

And Jock Paget would most certainly disagree with your final sentence.
		
Click to expand...

Then I apologise if I misread your tone. That's the problem with the written word/internet - it's easy to get the wrong impression. Apologies for speaking out if turn.

The second point was to the view put forward earlier that the only yardstick is the banned/controlled substance list and that if something does not test then it's 'okay'. Clearly there are things you can do to horses that are undetectable but which are debatable, at best. It goes to the argument that doing something because it doesn't test or because someone else gets away with it isn't everyone's (not mine, not yours, in general) interpretation of 'okay' and the rule is written as loosely as it is to give room for interpretation. So the steward who found empty buckets can call people on it. If the same steward found someone giving a horse something out of a tube they'd have a word, too.

As to Laura, I still think that's a really interesting question!

Quite frankly, I don't always have a massive amount of faith in the FEI and it's decision making. Evidence would suggest they don't always get it right although they would - rightly -argue they cannot police everyone all the time.

The people who have successfully challenged feed companies on positive tests have done so on the basis of contamination not manufactures claims


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## TarrSteps (30 October 2013)

Re Jock, we don't have enough information. Perhaps the horse was nobbled? Perhaps it ate a banned plant, which would make it the first case for this substance? I still maintain that with due diligence, in the vast majority of cases, it's pretty easy to avoid a positive test.


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## popsdosh (31 October 2013)

The real interpretation issue comes from the issue that the FEI were at the time that ruling came in up against some serious issues with one shot calmers being used in competition as well as some other human medications which at the time were undetectable in the horse.A few serious falls(including a rider fatality) had been attributed to them especially ones containing Valerian which has now become a banned substance.Do you allow anything not on the banned list to be used willy nilly as the cheats will always be ahead of you for example in SJ a year or two back their was a spate of disciplinary action for riders giving horses powerful human antipsycotics which were not being tested for as nobody had thought they would be used in horses. Their is no ruling against calmers used as a feed supplement outside competition just during competition. For those who say calmers aren't cheating what is the difference between giving a tube before dressage and a horse being given reserpine for example .Both are being given to the same end.One works! and the other one  only has a placebo effect on the rider in most cases.


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## Tnavas (31 October 2013)

*Ingredients in Polo's*

Ingredients of the main variety include: sugar, glucose syrup, modified starch, stearic acid (of vegetable origin), lubricant (570) and mint oils.

*Components of Peppermint*
Peppermint has a high menthol content, and is often used in tea and for flavouring ice cream, confectionery, chewing gum, and toothpaste. The oil also contains menthone and menthyl esters, particularly menthyl acetate.[12] Dried peppermint typically has 0.3-0.4% of volatile oil containing menthol (7-48%), menthone (20-46%), menthyl acetate (3-10%), menthofuran (1-17%) and 1,8-cineol (3-6%). Peppermint oil also contains small amounts of many additional compounds including limonene, pulegone, caryophyllene and pinene.

*From the FEI prohibited substance pages*


search

Search results for "Peppermint" (showing 0 of 0 results)

No results !

So if Peppermint is not on the Prohibited substance list then Polo's can be fed. My mare loves her mints

Without horses Rowntree's would be out of business! Polo's keep them going.........


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## ArcticFox (4 November 2013)

wow!  thanks for the responses, not sure I am totally convinced that polos are ok to feed yet 

will keep investigating but for now, I have a box of polos, so have about 40 packets to get through!


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## khalswitz (4 November 2013)

ArcticFox said:



			wow!  thanks for the responses, not sure I am totally convinced that polos are ok to feed yet 

will keep investigating but for now, I have a box of polos, so have about 40 packets to get through!
		
Click to expand...

Least you'll have nice fresh breath


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