# Lack of response from Y.O's and cost of extras!



## applecart14 (20 July 2016)

Sorry just a bit of a grumble.  Im currently looking for livery as unfortunately where I am is being sold.  Its impossible to determine how long this will take, so rather than a load of liveries all looking at the same time when it is sold I thought I would try to at least make some enquiries and see what is about.  I like where I am, the hacking is amazing and it suits my boy, and they YO is very good so its a real shame.  Its selling as a going concern but the buyer may choose not to keep the liveries of course.

I have FB messaged two livery yards and got instant responses, one of which I have my name down for and that I was on previously but with a long waiting list (am excited) and one of which was a no go.  But then there are 3 other yards that I left voicemails with five days ago that still have not come back to me!!!  I feel that if this is their level of response, then would they have the same lackadaisical response to my horse should an issue arise whilst he is in their care.

I am also increasingly surprised by the extortionate prices for extras such as trailer, turn out and bring in.  A £38 a week DIY livery suddenly becomes £75.50 in the winter and £62.50 in the summer due to extras.  I cant get up to the yard before work as I have to be in for 7am so would have to pay an extra £12.50 per week!  Fair enough you might say, but to take an unrugged horse 50 yards to a paddock shouldnt cost £2.50. The previous yard I was at (and my current yard) charges a fair price, and one way only, ie. Turnout or bring in and not both.  One yard I rang up years ago now, said it would cost £3.00 each time I wanted a tub of pre wet hay (that I had supplied) picking up and chucking over the door (tub and contents  not even shook out!)  Bring in was £2 but to pick out feet was an extra £1.50!!!! WHAT????  Menage flood lights also can get expensive, a recent yard I visited was £1.50 per 40 mins, another £7.50 a week in winter on top of the £75.50 for assisted DIY!

One yard that I really wanted to go to has no individual turnout and my horse has spent the last eight years on his own, albeit with horses next to him.  I was honest and explained the situation and after a lengthy discussion we agreed that it wasnt really fair to turn him out with others, as much for their sake as his.  Although not a nasty horse I think he would just play too rough with the others.  But she came across so caring and professional on the phone and my heart aches to be on that livery yard. Ive been offered two months individual turnout until winter with no guarantee of anything beyond that which was very generous of her, but I cant really be moving yards again so soon if nothing was available.

One YOs response when going to see the yard and asking if the rule of no horse left on his own in the field applied was told if I see a horse distressed on its own I will bring it in.  My horse can be first out and last in at his current yard but HE KNOWS someone will be turned out or someone will come to get him in quickly, but we are talking 1 or 2 minutes tops.  At this yard I visited, if the YO isnt there to see it, or sees him initially calm (but his stress escalates when she is not looking) he could at best be very distressed or at worse seriously injure himself.  Shame as it was quite a nice yard and I was thinking about it until that point, she seemed a really nice person and it was a nice yard with the stable about the same size as my horses, and lots grazing/good hacking.

I am becoming a little despondent by it all to tell you the truth.  Any tips/suggestions/advice?


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## eggs (20 July 2016)

Given the cost of extras would it not be worth looking at having your horse on part livery?  This should also eliminate the potential problem of him being left out on his own.


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## Kylara (20 July 2016)

Sounds frustrating. I don't do DIY livery (part/full/schooling) so can't help with extras, but turnout/bring in does take time so paying extra for that in my mind is reasonable if you are otherwise full DIY.

My part livery has turn out/bring in etc all included and all the owner does is turn up groom, fuss, and ride (though they can do more if they want!). It might be worth looking for a part livery space if you can't do mornings? 

In regards to people getting back to you, I know my phone messes around an awful lot and never tells me if I have missed someone's call or have a voicemail, so I try to get everything sorted through email if at all possible (bad signal). But I do check the voicemail regularly and it is only common courtesy to reply with either a yes or no to spaces.


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## milliepops (20 July 2016)

Quite common round me tbh, I found I had to decide what was really important to me when I was looking as nowhere is perfect.  I ended up with a 30 min drive each way at one point (40 mile round trip), and paying the services was cheaper then driving up twice a day.

I think you have to look a little longer, it's worth making follow up phone calls to the other yards that haven't replied - no point writing them off so soon - it's easy to forget to phone someone back but that doesn't mean they are useless horse-people. e.g. perhaps your message came through garbled... it happens.

And then decide whether you really really need the extras - e.g. you can pick his feet out when you get there. Could you get up earlier to do your own morning turnout.  Plenty of us are up and about before 6am regularly, needs must  I don't have lights on the school where I am but can ride in the dawn light well enough.  There's always a compromise with horses and it's usually time versus money when it comes to livery arrangements tbh!


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## ester (20 July 2016)

I think those that don't reply are often full in my experience anyway. 
I do pay £2.50 for someone to bring in during the winter, about 50 yards, no rug change/feet pick out etc just throw in it always seems a bit much but equally they have to get there and not be anywhere else in the middle of the day.
£12.50 a week to only have to go up once a day seems like a bit of a bargain to me tbh.


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## PorkChop (20 July 2016)

I agree, it sounds like you need part livery 

I don't think the extra charges sound too much at all, all these little things take a great deal of time!


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## twiggy2 (20 July 2016)

In order to push the £38per week up to the winter and summer prices what exactly would the yard be doing? 
I think £1.50 for picking out feet is a fair charge, as that could wait till you get to the yard after work so it is not essential.
Many diy yards don't really want the hassle of providing services or there is not an awful lot of work and both these things make it more expensive.
Also diy means you are responsible for your horse, so it is up to you to ensure it is not left out alone if that is a worry for you, you need to set stuff up with other liveries so you look out for each others horses.
If you need the horse looked after each morning and you want someone to be about during the day to check he is not left out alone you need to be on a yard that employs staff rather than just a diy yard really.


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## YorksG (20 July 2016)

Many DIY  yards in our area offer no services at all, so if there are issues about getting there, liveries sort it out between  themselves. Otherwise they go to part/full livery yards, with the costs as expected. YO of DIY yards cannot be expected to be there all the time to keep an eye on liveries, as they are being paid for the rent of a stable and grazing, not for their time, imo. One of the problems is that everyone wants the best for their horse, but to provide that can be very expensive, which a lot of people find difficult to understand and are prepared to pay.


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## fatpiggy (20 July 2016)

twiggy2 said:



			In order to push the £38per week up to the winter and summer prices what exactly would the yard be doing? 
I think £1.50 for picking out feet is a fair charge, as that could wait till you get to the yard after work so it is not essential.
Many diy yards don't really want the hassle of providing services or there is not an awful lot of work and both these things make it more expensive.
Also diy means you are responsible for your horse, so it is up to you to ensure it is not left out alone if that is a worry for you, you need to set stuff up with other liveries so you look out for each others horses.
If you need the horse looked after each morning and you want someone to be about during the day to check he is not left out alone you need to be on a yard that employs staff rather than just a diy yard really.
		
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That's £18ph assuming they go incredibly slow and take 5 minutes to pick out 4 hooves.  That's alot of money for what is essentially an unskilled task!


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## acw295 (20 July 2016)

I've been on DIY and now on Assisted livery - I have found that DIY works well if you do everything yourself - but paying for extras regularly pushes the price up to a level that doesn't make sense (but handy to have for odd occasions/holiday). So on that basis I'd look for Assisted DIY/Part options as they will probably work out as better value and possibly more reliable.

I had the opposite problem to you when looking for livery - I will only do group turnout (not individual or pairs/3's - has to be a decent sized herd. I found loads of individual turnout but very little group especially on part livery yards.

I think you might be a bit harsh in assuming that if they haven't got back to you quickly that they wouldn't take good care of your horse. They may just not be great at admin/be full - or even be away on their own holidays! I'd make a second call or visit and then if no response after that, then yes - fair enough to write them off.

I get winter Mon-Fri turnout/bring in, muck out, water & nets (DIY weekends). In summer they are mostly out 24/7 and just checked in field although I have Molly bought in (no charge for that) and I do stable and turn out in the eves during the week. All hay/haylage and straw included for £45pw (same price all year). I do own rug changes, feet, provide and make up feeds which are put in for free. YO holds for farrier/vet for free and we get free lorry/trailer parking. That is the standard service as no DIY available. If I priced up the equivalent on a DIY yard with services it would be way more than that, probably £60ish at least.

I loved pure DIY and for 5 years was on a yard with no services whatsoever - all the liveries just helped each other. I miss that dreadfully - but I moved 70 miles away and my commute would make that untenable these days, even if I found the same local to here. As it goes I don't miss morning muck out in winter very much, but do miss the extra yard time. However I was also single then and whilst my husband is very supportive and doesn't complain - it probably suits my life better to have help these days!


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## Shavings (20 July 2016)

sounds rather cheap to me, i pay £95 a week for part livery!

but then again where i am there are not may yards.. being on a small island does have its issues now and then!


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## leflynn (20 July 2016)

I went from DIY to part/full livery (none riding but horse cared for/brought in etc) and have never looked back after 3 years   The livery costs aren't that much higher for me and my fuel/time bill is lower.  I found it an odd change but they yard are fab so much less stress - always get a text if something is needed or if he has lost a shoe!  Plus no longer paying £15 for someone to 'hold' my horse to be shod or for the vet etc...


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## chaps89 (20 July 2016)

I'm on a private yard, which means if I want assistance I have to pay a freelancer to come in. She wanted to charge £10 for a 20 minute (including travelling time) visit- that would work out at £30/hour which is more than I get paid as an instructor. Her point was that frankly, freelancers can and do charge more because they can and it proves more profitable than yard work tho there is less stability of course. I've quickly worked out that with school hire and assistance I could go on full grass livery for a not dis-similar amount, however it is still substantially less than the cost of stabled part livery and as I like and can do my pony myself the majority of the time, this set up works well for me. However it's all about what is compromisable- I looked recently and could either have fab school, grazing and assistance but NO hacking, or great hacking, school but assistance extra and no storage, or the perfect set up but too expensive or too far away. In the end I went somewhere which has ok hacking, storage, assistance and school extra but off-set by a low livery cost. There is no such thing as the perfect yard (unless you have unlimited funds but for average Joe I don't think there is) so it's about working out your priorities. Sounds like assisted diy or part livery is likely to suit you best.


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## milliepops (20 July 2016)

fatpiggy said:



			That's £18ph assuming they go incredibly slow and take 5 minutes to pick out 4 hooves.  That's alot of money for what is essentially an unskilled task!
		
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well yes, it would be if they were employing someone purely to pick out hooves and they did it all day. 
More realistic, it's one person who has to be available on the yard all day to do the odd jobs requested by DIYers at specified times, which in all likelyhood averages a much lower hourly rate


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## applecart14 (20 July 2016)

fatpiggy said:



			That's £18ph assuming they go incredibly slow and take 5 minutes to pick out 4 hooves.  That's alot of money for what is essentially an unskilled task!
		
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The chap that I spoke to all those years ago was just setting up the yard and we were in email conversation about me possibly being a livery.  When I sent him a list of my requirements for my horse which were quite basic really (turnout, bring in, chuck a tub of hay over the door) he sent me a price list itemizing each item and other items as well. I emailed back and said I was sorry but felt he was too expensive for my needs and he replied that he had looked at other yards in the area and based his prices on that.  I knew that was a lie, so I sent him a polite and chatty email back telling him how much they charged for the same thing at two other yards within a three mile radius.  but still he felt he was justified in charging £3 for a tub of ready made up soaked hay to be chucked over the door, and an additional £1.50 for picking out a foot on top of the £2.00 he was already charging to bring the horse in!  (On my previous yard I asked that they left my horse with legs unwashed and feet unpicked. They got the horses in at 3pm and I got there just after five pm by which time his legs were dried off and I could brush the mud off and save myself the money and pick out his feet too).

Anyway yesterday I rang the same chap (I had kept his phone number) just to see if he had found out through lack of liveries that his prices were indeed much too high and he informed me that the yard hadn't worked out and he had left and was now working in London.  I am guessing it was because he was not competitive and his prices were too high which is what I had tried to tell him in the first place.

I will be considering part livery, but around here this can mean many things depending on the yard and person.


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## twiggy2 (20 July 2016)

fatpiggy said:



			That's £18ph assuming they go incredibly slow and take 5 minutes to pick out 4 hooves.  That's alot of money for what is essentially an unskilled task!
		
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As an unskilled task could you ask somewhere does not know one end of a horse from another to do it? I also assume whilst I am doing it I am expected to realise if there is anything wrong with the horse. Many of the owners I deal with ask me to pic out their horses feet because the horse is badly behaved or they just don't want to do it themselves, so they want someone to do the dirty jobs. If they paid full livery would be included if people want to cherry pick then they pay a premium.


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## tda (20 July 2016)

I'm not on livery, but after reading this post I assumed that these charges were quite steep to dissuade people from just texting at last minute, to have horse brought in/let out/etc.

Friends seem to have casual arrangements with others on yard to bring in etc


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## applecart14 (20 July 2016)

twiggy2 said:



			In order to push the £38per week up to the winter and summer prices what exactly would the yard be doing? .
		
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Hi Twiggy 2 thanks for your comments, but we are a bit at cross purposes.  

One of the yards I have seen recently charges £2.50 each way per day.  They charge 'around' £10 per week hay.  £2.75 for trailer per week.  The £1.50 for picking out feet like I explained was years ago when I was looking at moving to a yard so is not applicable and anyway I always used to do my own horses feet, I was just telling people how expensive £1,.50 on top of £2.00 to bring in was!

And I couldn't care less whether someone is there in the day or not to check my horse is okay in the field.  The issue is that there should be a rule on every yard that NO HORSE IS LEFT ON ITS OWN. Simple.  Horses are herd animals and there are not many that can be left on their own. Even if they are seen to be 'just' ambling up and down the fence line when left on their own, a horse that is unused to this kind of environment could well be suffering a huge amount of stress that could/will escalate if ignored.


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## AdorableAlice (20 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			I will be considering part livery, but around here this can mean many things depending on the yard and person.
		
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I am very close to you in area.  What would you consider a fair price for diy or part livery in this area and roughly how would you price the 'add on's.


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## Goldenstar (20 July 2016)

TBH I would not pick out a horses feet for less than £1.50 .
Unless paddocks are very close to stables if you take even the minimum wage and work out how long it takes to walk to a field catch and horse and put it in a stable then add a degree of profit , because there's no point in doing it unless it increases profit not just turnover you can see how the figures mentioned in the thread come about .
I think livery owners doing DIY are entitled to make extras quite expensive as it increases the cost and hassle of running the buisiness considerably it needs to be worth their while .


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## applecart14 (20 July 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			TBH I would not pick out a horses feet for less than £1.50 .
Unless paddocks are very close to stables if you take even the minimum wage and work out how long it takes to walk to a field catch and horse and put it in a stable then add a degree of profit , because there's no point in doing it unless it increases profit not just turnover you can see how the figures mentioned in the thread come about .
I think livery owners doing DIY are entitled to make extras quite expensive as it increases the cost and hassle of running the buisiness considerably it needs to be worth their while .
		
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Its all about what people are willing to pay and the feeling of not being ripped off in the process.  There is a shop by us for example that charges £1.00 for three standard Mars Bars.  If you go anywhere else they are 79p each!  I know where I would go if I wanted a Mars bar.


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## milliepops (20 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			And I couldn't care less whether someone is there in the day or not to check my horse is okay in the field.  The issue is that there should be a rule on every yard that NO HORSE IS LEFT ON ITS OWN. Simple.  Horses are herd animals and there are not many that can be left on their own. Even if they are seen to be 'just' ambling up and down the fence line when left on their own, a horse that is unused to this kind of environment could well be suffering a huge amount of stress that could/will escalate if ignored.
		
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Speaking as someone on DIY who has a horse that can't be left on its own.... it's actually a bit of a PITA if this is a rule. It creates a burden on the other liveries at DIY yards. I used to have a 20 minute round trip to my field and couldn't bring my horse's field mate in at the same time as my horse, because he was so rude and dangerous to lead. So that was 40 minutes of my day gone, because the horse's owner always arrived after me.  It's one thing on a yard where there are always staff, but on a DIY yard I do believe each owner should be responsible for their own horse or else make proper arrangements.  Constantly being asked to do favours is really wearing.

I've ended up with a second horse, and mine are usually first in/out so I no longer have to worry about anyone else's horse.  I'd never choose to have only one ever again! :lol:


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## twiggy2 (20 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Hi Twiggy 2 thanks for your comments, but we are a bit at cross purposes.  

One of the yards I have seen recently charges £2.50 each way per day.  They charge 'around' £10 per week hay.  £2.75 for trailer per week.  The £1.50 for picking out feet like I explained was years ago when I was looking at moving to a yard so is not applicable and anyway I always used to do my own horses feet, I was just telling people how expensive £1,.50 on top of £2.00 to bring in was!

And I couldn't care less whether someone is there in the day or not to check my horse is okay in the field.  The issue is that there should be a rule on every yard that NO HORSE IS LEFT ON ITS OWN. Simple.  Horses are herd animals and there are not many that can be left on their own. Even if they are seen to be 'just' ambling up and down the fence line when left on their own, a horse that is unused to this kind of environment could well be suffering a huge amount of stress that could/will escalate if ignored.
		
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No need to shout but we don't all want that rule.
I do not want someone else handling my mare and there are at least 6 ill mannered horses on my current yard who would be left to just one or two of us to do because they can be dangerous.


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## applecart14 (20 July 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			I am very close to you in area.  What would you consider a fair price for diy or part livery in this area and roughly how would you price the 'add on's.
		
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I can only go by past experience.  I would consider £1.50 or £2.00 turnout or bring in a fair price, same at weekends. Previous yard you had either a free turn out or bring in every weekday.  I think its fair to charge for picking out feet and washing legs (which I have always opted not to have).  Trailer parking I am not charged at present yard, have been charged elsewhere, around £2.00 - £2.25 per week.  Normally hay and straw is included in the price or it is on the yards I have been on, although I've never had straw, always opted for the free shavings I was getting at one time, I think my present yard charges a little for straw but I might be wrong.

The yard I was on for 10 years were fairly priced as is the one I am on currently.  I have normally paid around £220 - £250 pounds per calendar month (depending on time of year) and more for part livery obviously which is very new to me.


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## Annagain (20 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			One yard that I really wanted to go to has no individual turnout and my horse has spent the last eight years on his own, albeit with horses next to him.  I was honest and explained the situation and after a lengthy discussion we agreed that it wasn&#8217;t really fair to turn him out with others, as much for their sake as his.  Although not a nasty horse I think he would just play too rough with the others.  But she came across so caring and professional on the phone and my heart aches to be on that livery yard. I&#8217;ve been offered two months individual turnout until winter with no guarantee of anything beyond that which was very generous of her, but I can&#8217;t really be moving yards again so soon if nothing was available.
		
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I think if you like the yard and YO that much and she seems willing to help you, I'd go for that one and use the two months to introduce him to herd life slowly. Keep him on his own but next to others to begin with, add a nice friendly middle of the pack type horse to his field and maybe one or two others over the next week or so and once he's settled with them, move them all back in with the full herd. Most horses will adapt to their circumstances pretty well if it's done gradually and properly. Why do you think he'll play roughly? If you've never seen him out with a herd, you don't know he will. I'd give him (and the herd) the benefit of the doubt. He'll be put in his place by them if he's a problem. 

I don't think £2.50 a day for turnout is too bad. That's the equivalent of about 5 minutes of my time at my hourly rate. By the time the horse has been fed, eaten his breakfast and had his rugs changed I'd say that's about right.  

Good luck with finding somewhere.


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## applecart14 (20 July 2016)

twiggy2 said:



			No need to shout but we don't all want that rule.
I do not want someone else handling my mare and there are at least 6 ill mannered horses on my current yard who would be left to just one or two of us to do because they can be dangerous.
		
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It was not intended to be shouting.  I just assumed that this rule was universal and I am flabbergasted to hear that it is not.  I cannot imagine being on a yard where this is not enforced anymore than its considered the norm at a yard to ride in the school without a hat on for example.  I cannot recall in all my years of being on livery yards (30 years and seven yards) that it has ever been okay to leave a horse out on its own when all the others come in.  Surely this is just common sense?  I know there are horses that are kept on their own but these are normally private yards where the horse is accustomed to such a thing.


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## ester (20 July 2016)

tda said:



			I'm not on livery, but after reading this post I assumed that these charges were quite steep to dissuade people from just texting at last minute, to have horse brought in/let out/etc.

Friends seem to have casual arrangements with others on yard to bring in etc
		
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That and I think because they are not 'regular' if say you have a person on a big yard to do all the jobs requested they have to make sure they are priced so in the times where not much is being requested it still pays to make themselves available.


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## Aleka81 (20 July 2016)

Never been on a yard with a "rule" to bring other horses in! I wouldn't go if there was. It's always just been arrange between yourselves or turn up at agreed time or put up with horses out on there own.


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## applecart14 (20 July 2016)

annagain said:



			the full herd. Most horses will adapt to their circumstances pretty well if it's done gradually and properly. Why do you think he'll play roughly? If you've never seen him out with a herd, you don't know he will. I'd give him (and the herd) the benefit of the doubt. He'll be put in his place by them if he's a problem. 

Good luck with finding somewhere.
		
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He was out with a herd for his first two years with me (when he was seven) and I saw how he played with them.  He then got a bone chip as a result of a kick which actually went undiagnosed at first and I was told there was a chance that some nerve had been damaged which would result in permanent locomotion difficulties with that leg (fortunately this wasn't the case). I was also incorrectly advised by my previous vet at the time who said it was just a bruise, but when the horse was increasingly lame I asked for an xray which showed the chip.  I was also told that if the horse had hooned around in the field it would have turned into a catastrophic fracture.  This is why I stopped him going out with others.

I guess I think he would play rough because if I had been on my own for eight years and then was permitted to mix with others I would go slightly mad with joy


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## ester (20 July 2016)

We don't have a don't leave them out on their own rule, though the YO doesn't like it to happen and as liveries we will all try and make sure it doesn't happen for the 3 horses that are on individual turnout (just because they don't work together, I would have F on herd turnout if I could), but understanding that it is a good 10-15 min round trip to our summer fields which when people have to get to work makes it a bit more complicated. It usually is only an issue when people do things outside of their routine, F got left on his own the other morning because the pair that are out 24/7 came in and there was a bit of a communication breakdown as if the YO had realised she would have gone and got him for me. I was a bit annoyed as he is only supposed to be walking quietly and I live on site so people only had to bash on the door , and I am the first person to go and get the others in if need be. But also understand that it isn't always practical for DIYers to manage it when the fields are some distance away. We've hopefully put in place some extra communication if people change routines


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## twiggy2 (20 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			It was not intended to be shouting.  I just assumed that this rule was universal and I am flabbergasted to hear that it is not.  I cannot imagine being on a yard where this is not enforced anymore than its considered the norm at a yard to ride in the school without a hat on for example.  I cannot recall in all my years of being on livery yards (30 years and seven yards) that it has ever been okay to leave a horse out on its own when all the others come in.  Surely this is just common sense?  I know there are horses that are kept on their own but these are normally private yards where the horse is accustomed to such a thing.
		
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Yes there are yards without the rule, at a previous yard more than once someone turned my mare out rather than deal with the horse or the owner of the horse that would have been left on its own. Then I find out and have to go back to do mine again and deal with the other handful of a horse. 
As a person on diy who works with horses elsewhere I do not want to be dealing with other peoples dangerous horses on a regular basis because the owners are too scared to deal with the horses themselves. To top it off I don't get paid.
If there is an emergency at the yard I am happy to muck in but if you have a horse that cannot be left alone on a diy yard then you as the owner need to make arrangements so it is bought it with another horse each day that is not another liveries responsibility.


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## Goldenstar (20 July 2016)

You made your choice then choose the cheapest place .
Land costs money so why should they not charge for parking trailers it's a service and they are selling services ,staff cost money the YOers own time should cost money .

I think picking a foot out and catching up are skilled jobs if you view them on a par as an experienced cattle man on a farm .
If you take say £2 for catch up .
Assume that the cost to the buisiness To employ employ someone is £10 per hour.
That's saying one member of staff takes around 11mins to get a headcollar get to the field put the headcollar on the horse get it back to its stable 
But that's not factoring the profit the YOer must seek on that 11minutes to actually be running a buisiness for profit .
IF you are running a yard and need to turn a proper profit these are calculations you need to know unless you end up not making a profit on the time spent .
 A YOer should know the price they put on the capital tied up in that piece of land 
you park your trailer in or the proportion of the yard rent it represents you then charge and add your percentage profit .
The problem far to many yards don't think so their costs like this .
It's the same issue that gets small hotels into trouble .
It was doing these calculations that helped me persuade one boss to close the DIY part of the yard I ran .
The killer was adding in the time I spent running the yard once I added profit to that figure there was no profit in it only turnover .
We closed it down and rented it to a single rider .


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## Annagain (20 July 2016)

We don't have a no horse out alone rule. On our yard, all but one of the horses are perfectly happy out alone for a bit at the end of the day. We all know we have to get B in if he's left out (very rare as he's normally one of the first in) but we can leave the others and it works perfectly. Every decent yard has a way of making things work for owners and horses, a bit of flexibility and common sense is all it takes.

In terms of you thinking he'll go mad with joy, does that not tell you that deep down you think it would be better for him? Just because hooning around with others 8 years ago was a problem doesn't meant it would be now. I imagine it would be quite exciting for him to begin with, but I'm sure he'd soon settle.


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## lrw0250 (20 July 2016)

We are completely DIY with no services provided by the yard owner (bar putting a saddle rack on the wall or lifting a big bale down with the forklift type things!), so work it out amongst ourselves if anyone needs anything done like bringing in or changing rugs. I must admit that it would be nice to have the option of extras - have nightmarish memories of trying to turn 2 out together in a howling gale at 6am one January morning!

My daughters pony is in a field with 1 other at the moment (will be back to 2 once the other pony is off box rest in a couple of months) and the other owner works away a couple of night a week so I do our two then and she returns the favour when she is home. There is one horse in another field who is OK being left out and his owner has made us all aware of that but the other ones would be brought in by someone (with text or call to owner) should they need to come in.


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## sport horse (20 July 2016)

I think the 'real' cost of having someone available to carry out these odd tasks is not being appreciated.  Assuming the yard employs someone full/part time, they have to pay NI and do a proper payroll - it is now quite complicated and I for one actually pay an accountant to run this payroll. 

Regular staff are entitled to 28 days holiday per annum minimum by law. This has to be costed into any prices charged out to liveries.

Very soon anyone employing even one person will have to run a pension scheme for staff - that will cost.

So, are you expecting the YO themselves to be available, at any moment/day, to pick up the bits you do not want or are unable to do on a DIY basis?  Why should they do that for no proper reward? They also should be declaring any such income for tax purposes.

Are you expecting freelance people to be available in each yard to pick up the bits that you find yourselves unable to do?  Are you expecting such a person not to charge for their travel and time while travelling?

Are you expecting that all this work be done on the blackmarket? ie cash in hand with no tax  being paid?  That is illegal. A proper freelancer should be self employed and paying their tax etc.

DIY means Do it Yourself. If you cannot because you have work/ family commitments. then it should be part livery.


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## milliepops (20 July 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			You made your choice then choose the cheapest place .
		
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that's the thing isn't it... keeping horses is expensive   Sounds like the OP has had a good deal in the past with bedding and hay included.    But that kind of yard is few and far between... and as hinted above usually not sustainable. I bet it would make most peoples eyes water to see a breakdown of running costs/rates etc on a yard.  
The alternative is to find some basic grass livery or rent a field. Otherwise, decide that you like being on a nice yard with facilites and staff available but accept that comes at a cost. It's for the YO to determine those prices, and you can either take it or leave it.  I don't tell any other business what their services should cost, I just make a personal decision about whether I'm prepared to pay it or not.


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## concorde (20 July 2016)

It seems to me you are unable to do DIY if you are needing assistance every day.
That leaves you with part or full livery.
You may find part livery works out cheaper than DIY with add hoc add ons.


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## Sealine (20 July 2016)

I'm on large DIY yard (40 horses) and the yard owner is non-horsey with no yard manager or staff.   First livery on the yard in the morning (usually me) drops feeds over stable doors. The YO charges £15 month for trailer parking or £20 month for boxes. Use of school is £2.50 half an hour (lights included). 

I have a weekday arrangement with a friend whereby I turn out for her and she brings in and feeds for me in the evening. This means I only need to go to the yard once a day in the week.  If I go on holiday or I'm working away I have a couple of trusted people who have horses at the yard who I pay to look after my horse.  I pay £2.50 per horse per turn out or bring in (includes picking out feet). There are additional charges for rugs changes/turn out boots/leg hosing.  The £2.50 applies regardless of whether the field is 20 yards away or a 10 minute walk.  I pay £5 for muck out/prepare feeds/water.   There are other charges to attend vet/farrier - not sure if £5 or £7.  There are a couple of teenagers who do jobs at weekends/school holidays who charge less but I prefer to pay more for someone more experienced who can deal with any issues that may arise who can do weekdays.   

The yard does have a 'no horse to be left out on it's own' rule.  There are some exceptions to this rule as there are some horses the owners want left out alone or can be left if others are in the field next door.   This works fine as everyone looks out for each other and if I need to get two horses in from a field that is a quite a walk there is always someone who will come and help if necessary. If there is someone who owns a horse which can't be left out alone who repeatedly leaves it to others to bring in, the yard owner will have a word with them and ensure they make arrangements for someone to bring it in.


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## acw295 (20 July 2016)

I've never been on a yard that has a "no horse on its own rule" but 3 of the 4 yards have been DIY and everyone would bring in a horse that was distressed as it is just common sense. Mine is a complete wally on her own - but very hard to ignore as she neighs deafeningly so she was always brought in if I wasn't there by whoever was there that couldn't stand the noise...I've always been on yards without individual turnout though so it rarely happened.

Current yard they are all brought in and turned out together in winter so not an issue. In summer there might be odd occasions where everyone bar 1 person has gone out riding and so one horse left on its own - but very, very rare. Not enough to worry about.

It is one of the reasons I hate individual turnout - completely unnatural and makes horses very clingy. My mare got a splint fracture from a field kick and we lost a year of work plus a big op - but that would never make me stop turning her out in company. Let them be horses I say and put up with the (tiny) risk of physical harm to protect mental wellbeing.


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## MotherOfChickens (20 July 2016)

I think GS, sport horse and millipops have it covered.

 I've never understood why people expect very cheap/free parking for lorries and trailers-if you had to park them at a caravan park if you can't have them at home, you'd have to pay. Yards don't exist to subsidise people's luxury hobby.


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## ester (20 July 2016)

phew I thought that we were really being over charged  for vehicle parking - £20 a month and the YO would rather not have them at all really.


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## galaxy (20 July 2016)

All yards I have been have a no horse left out alone rule (unless owners spec say to leave, like me! My mare is too thick to notice). 

However at one yard in the winter in caused a great deal of upset. One particular livery did not like going out in the dark and the mud so deliberately came down once she knew everyone else would have got fed up waiting and bring her horse in for her. 

If you know your horse does not like being left out last then it is fairer to pay to have then brought in by staff than rely on the other liveries good will


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## Damnation (20 July 2016)

Mine cannot under any circumstances be left on her own, she would seriously injure herself. In the past at previous yards as I don't get to the yard til 6pm (after work), the chances are that everyone else will have brought in and someone will have brought in my mare to save her being left alone. If this is the case I will speak to the liveries and see what I can do in exchange. If it means I give a livery a some money for their time a week or pay staff I do so, or if it means I muck out for them a night a week and bring in or something. I cannot put a price on my horse's safety.

I am currently on a purely DIY yard where the turnout and bring in is open all the stable doors and let them filter out and then back in. (the stable building door is directly into the field).

This suits me grand, the horses are turned out en mass by one person in the morning and someone (probably me, I haven't been there for a winter yet) will bring the lot in after work. We have a group chat so if someone needs to put out an SOS (can't make it up etc) someone will help out but it is expected that you help in return. This type of setup suits me as it is low stress for my mare and I am pants at mornings. I would rather bring in the lot every night then turn out in the mornings  

There are no extra charges/costs at my yard, we help eachother out.

Would this type of setup suit you more OP? Not the en mass bit but maybe finding someone to "Buddy up" with?


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## applecart14 (20 July 2016)

annagain said:



			We don't have a no horse out alone rule. On our yard, all but one of the horses are perfectly happy out alone for a bit at the end of the day. We all know we have to get B in if he's left out (very rare as he's normally one of the first in) but we can leave the others and it works perfectly. Every decent yard has a way of making things work for owners and horses, a bit of flexibility and common sense is all it takes.

In terms of you thinking he'll go mad with joy, does that not tell you that deep down you think it would be better for him? Just because hooning around with others 8 years ago was a problem doesn't meant it would be now. I imagine it would be quite exciting for him to begin with, but I'm sure he'd soon settle.
		
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Hi annagain would you want to take the chance with your pride and joy. If I turned him out with your horse (s) would you be entirely happy given he's not seen other horses for so long? I am just trying to be honest with people.

A previous yard I was at many years ago, there were two mares that were best friends in a herd of about 15 or so other mares. The one day one of the two pally ones went of to horspital for investigation and was gone a few days. When it came back to the yard it was turned out.  Its mate greeted it at the gate, and off they went together galloping down the field side by side.  Such was the joy that it was back in the herd and with its mate that it kicked out, making its mate swerve off straight into a fence, and breaking its mate's leg.  It belonged to the YO's wife, and I had to run up to the yard and tell her there had been an accident and drive her across the field in my car (she was disabled) before her hubby broke the news to her. She had owned her for 25 years, she bred her.

I've never forgotten this, its always stuck in my head.  That's why I know how easily a misconstrued kick can be.


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## applecart14 (20 July 2016)

concorde said:



			It seems to me you are unable to do DIY if you are needing assistance every day.
That leaves you with part or full livery.
You may find part livery works out cheaper than DIY with add hoc add ons.
		
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Quite possibly


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## acw295 (20 July 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I think GS, sport horse and millipops have it covered.

 I've never understood why people expect very cheap/free parking for lorries and trailers-if you had to park them at a caravan park if you can't have them at home, you'd have to pay. Yards don't exist to subsidise people's luxury hobby.
		
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Agreed. It is free at my yard but I've always expected to pay a fair amount - previously it's been anything from £5 to £15 per month which I didn't object to (although I could keep at home but more convenient to not have to).


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## Annagain (20 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Hi annagain would you want to take the chance with your pride and joy. If I turned him out with your horse (s) would you be entirely happy given he's not seen other horses for so long? I am just trying to be honest with people.

A previous yard I was at many years ago, there were two mares that were best friends in a herd of about 15 or so other mares. The one day one of the two pally ones went of to horspital for investigation and was gone a few days. When it came back to the yard it was turned out.  Its mate greeted it at the gate, and off they went together galloping down the field side by side.  Such was the joy that it was back in the herd and with its mate that it kicked out, making its mate swerve off straight into a fence, and breaking its mate's leg.  It belonged to the YO's wife, and I had to run up to the yard and tell her there had been an accident and drive her across the field in my car (she was disabled) before her hubby broke the news to her. She had owned her for 25 years, she bred her.

I've never forgotten this, its always stuck in my head.  That's why I know how easily a misconstrued kick can be.
		
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As long as it was done properly and carefully, yes. Mine are in a group of 10 and even when we have new horses there isn't a problem as it's done gradually. Mine is always the one to go in with new horses first as he's incredibly friendly and will never start trouble but will stand up for himself so I have put him in with (relatively) strange horses (they will have been over the fence from each other for a week first) quite a few times. In the 13 years I've been at my yard there hasn't been one serious kick incident. They have plenty of room to get away from each other if they need to but they rarely do.  They all know their places and get on just fine. 

There's a risk with everything your horse does - there was the story on here a few months back of poor Rosa who whacked her head in the stable by turning round too quickly and nearly died, you've also told stories of yours injuring himself alone in the field. As owners we can mitigate risks as far as possible but we can't eliminate them. 

If you can find a yard that's as good AND offers individual turnout then great, but seeing as you don't seem able to I'm just suggesting it as an option to consider. If you take his back shoes off and manage it  well there's no reason it has to end in disaster. I understand he's very precious to you but he's also a horse and they have managed to sort their herd dynamics out for centuries so there's no reason he won't fit into a herd given time to settle.


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## Damnation (20 July 2016)

I have no problems with my horse going in with others, even if they haven't seen another horse in a while. Done carefully I see no problems but then I do like them to have mates. I have infact volunteered my horse on multiple occasions as "nanny" for mares, geldings, weanlings etc. she is prefect for this - she doesn't bully but won't be bullied/chased, never kicked out or attacked and is quite calm in the field.

I'd rather my horse reached 25 with mates then had a life only sniffing over the hedge. She's a sociable bird  But then that is my own personal preferance, each to their own. 

The trouble is that in your situation it is going to come down to "something's got to give". It is completely your choice as to what that thing is. I know you have had injury etc with your horse so herd turnout may be a huge worry for you but done right I think it will be ok.  

I have been in your position of trying to find a yard due to closure in an area with very few yards, and I had to give up an arena on two occasions as apart from that the yards suited my horse. I've found another yard with an arena but its only DIY (other yards it was YO's full time job if you see what I mean?) so I am at the mercy of the kindness of others if something happens and I need a hand one day instead of just paying YO to do it.


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## Mongoose11 (20 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			I can only go by past experience.  I would consider £1.50 or £2.00 turnout or bring in a fair price, same at weekends. Previous yard you had either a free turn out or bring in every weekday.  I think its fair to charge for picking out feet and washing legs (which I have always opted not to have).  Trailer parking I am not charged at present yard, have been charged elsewhere, around £2.00 - £2.25 per week.  Normally hay and straw is included in the price or it is on the yards I have been on, although I've never had straw, always opted for the free shavings I was getting at one time, I think my present yard charges a little for straw but I might be wrong.

The yard I was on for 10 years were fairly priced as is the one I am on currently.  I have normally paid around £220 - £250 pounds per calendar month (depending on time of year) and more for part livery obviously which is very new to me.
		
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Trailer/lorry parking at mine is £13/£18 a month. Bring in, pick feet out, feed and give hay is £2.50 (incredibly reasonable) and £3 with a rug change. I think your expectation of hay/straw is unreasonable unless you are willing to pay £40-45 a week as a basic charge. Here, stable and grazing will cost £120-140 a month with no hay/straw included.


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## marmalade88 (20 July 2016)

The problem seems to be what you consider to be reasonable value. 

You either adjust what you think is reasonable and move to the yard, or you go somewhere else cheaper. 

Personally I think £2 for a bring in is perfectly reasonable. If it takes 15 mins to turnout you can only do 4 horses an hour, if they are all in different field. A yard I was at used to be £5 for bring in rug change (which I never do anyway) and pick out feet. 

Re the floodlights "Menage flood lights also can get expensive, a recent yard I visited was £1.50 per 40 min". If you're DIY then you're only paying for a stable and a field space. I would expect any extras to have to be paid for, unless you have a VERY generous yard owner. 

Do these yards include poo picking? Field maintenance is always a big concern for me, and personally (although I don't consider these charges to excessive) i'd be prepared to pay if the field we're well fenced, poo picked, harrowed and rolled appropriately. Good grazing all year can save a fortune on hay and hard feed.


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## wingedhorse (20 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			It was not intended to be shouting.  I just assumed that this rule was universal and I am flabbergasted to hear that it is not.  I cannot imagine being on a yard where this is not enforced anymore than its considered the norm at a yard to ride in the school without a hat on for example.  I cannot recall in all my years of being on livery yards (30 years and seven yards) that it has ever been okay to leave a horse out on its own when all the others come in.  Surely this is just common sense?  I know there are horses that are kept on their own but these are normally private yards where the horse is accustomed to such a thing.
		
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Its funny, I had my horses at a big DIY yard, with this rule, and it was enforced. And mine were not happy to stay out alone. I had two horses and two stables, and was fine.

Now at a tiny yard, and my two have own field. Both will both pretty much go out and stay out alone. Amazed me. I did work on separation as they are a pair bond, and stabled by themselves, next to each other.


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## ester (20 July 2016)

galaxy said:



			All yards I have been have a no horse left out alone rule (unless owners spec say to leave, like me! My mare is too thick to notice). 

However at one yard in the winter in caused a great deal of upset. One particular livery did not like going out in the dark and the mud so deliberately came down once she knew everyone else would have got fed up waiting and bring her horse in for her. 

If you know your horse does not like being left out last then it is fairer to pay to have then brought in by staff than rely on the other liveries good will
		
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Not all small DIY yards have staff though, hence we just try to communicate. Most out in pairs seems to work well as it is always possible to bring two in together without any extra effort from anyone. we've never had a situ of anyone taking the pee though and when my field sharer was always down first in the morning I would always say either happy to pay or return favours


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## charlie76 (20 July 2016)

I am always perplexed by these threads that livery costs are "ridiculous" . 
For some reason people think that us livery yard owners are making a fortune over charging people where in actual fact we are doing well if we break even. 

I am not sure why people think we should do tasks such as catching, hoof picking, rug changing for less than the cost of a Starbucks coffee? 

Whatever the staff do we still have to pay them minimum wage to be there if not more. 

I don't think people quite get the overheads involved with running a decent yard and the hours put in. 

Just for starters with costs.. 
Rent/mortgage
Electric
Water
Business rates
Insurance for yard
Insurance for staff
Accountant costs
Costs for breakages
Staff wages
Loo roll!!!! 
Cess pits emptied
Fuel for tractors etc
Insurance for tractors ext
Purchasing of show jumps which everyone uses
Replacing broken tools and equipment
Replacing broken fencing
Staff training
The list is endless

It is not a money making enterprise, most of us do it for the love of it I can assure you!


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## Bojingles (20 July 2016)

I think it sounds like you want part livery at DIY prices. Bear in mind that it's incredibly difficult for a YO to make any money out of DIY. They have to employ people, with all that entails, manage and maintain the land, the fencing, the stables etc etc and on top of that have pretty expensive insurance.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (20 July 2016)

OP, i think £2.50 to £3 to bring in is perfectly reasonable.

Example: Yard has staff,  poss paying 10 per hour to freelance groom. Jobs planned to allow staff to complete in 3 hrs,  then YO is presented with an extra horse which could well take the groom  10 mins or more away from the work planned.  Overtime needs to be paid, no extra £'s for yo tho.

Parking? Why not charge?


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## Mrs B (20 July 2016)

I used to charge fellow liveries £2.50 for feed, bring in/turn out & rug change if needed.

But to be frank, it's not about the number of steps I took to achieve the task, or whether there was a rug to change or not: £2.50 is absolute peanuts for knowing that I would, 100% without fail, be there at the same time each day to look after their horse as if it were my own.

Which also means having built in enough time so if anything was wrong, I would sort it out.

ETA this was a DIY yard.


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## Kylara (20 July 2016)

I don't offer DIY for most of those reasons. People don't like costs for doing things. "I can do that myself" - yes I'm sure you can and that's why you rent the stable and field. If you can't get there or don't want to get up early mornings then you need to pay someone to do it. Why should they not get paid properly? 

It costs me £10 an hour to have a freelancer cover my Thursday afternoons when I teach for most of the day over an hour away. I hire them for 3 hours. That's £30 every week just on one shift. 

My yard is small so I don't need a full time groom, but I do need cover and they get paid for the hour whether they do anything or not. So if you're on a DIY yard that has a member of staff - they'll be getting paid by the hour, not by the job. They also don't have the whole evening to do stuff - so to catch a horse can take anything from 5 minutes to 20 minutes and you are being charged £2 for that, then rug changes - some horses are difficult and fidgety, sometimes you'd have to dig a rug out because the person covering for you does not do your horse all the time, they have no idea where the stuff is, they have to dig around, tbh I'd probably charge at least another £1 for rug changes, if not more, they take time and so does finding somewhere to put a sopping wet rug. Picking feet out - again, more skilled than you think and some horses are real pigs with their feet.

On my yard (part, full, schooling only) I know where everything is, I put all the rugs in the same place, all the grooming kit in one place, all the tools in one place etc so I can grab a fork in no time at all.

I used to freelance groom and I never took a job at less than £10 an hour, and £15 for a single hour. I have to cover my personal insurance, fuel, business things like tax and NI and it wasn't worth it to go for less. I spent 3 hours a morning for a while temping at a stud. I mucked out 6 boxes in 1.5 - 2 hours, hay/haylage everything (about 20 horses) brought in 4, turned out 4, whacked new haybales in the steamer, bathed anything that needed bathing, washed off the legs of everything that came in, swapped rugs for them, swapped rugs for those going out, washed all the waterers, swept everything, lugged bales around. If you take that - I got paid £30 for 3 hours - if we transfer that to DIY "helping" then I would have got paid more per horse but I wouldn't have made more money. As 1 horse would have paid me about £9. But at a DIY "helping" someone, I'd be doing 1 horse, travelling there and to the next place/back home and I'd make a loss on my hourly rate. Not to mention the travel time. 

If someone is hired for the full day then they should be decent and can fully muck out a stable in 20 minutes. Generally people don't have more than 6 to muck out (unless minimal beds) so that's 2 hours. Then assuming they are working leisurely as no rush to go anywhere, half an hour to hay and replace any hay in steamers/soaks/etc, half an hour to an hour to turnout/bring in depending on how far away the fields are, that's 3 - 3.5 hours. But they've been hired for the whole day - so 7.30 to 5 for eg with a half hour/hour for lunch, that's 8-9 hours. They've done all of their horses in 3. And you've probably got another hour or so in the afternoon to bring in and swap rugs, probably no more than an hour, so that's 4 hours of work. But they need paying £10 an hour for 8-9 hours. £80 - do your DIY "helping" costs cover that? 6 horses to/bi would be £15 for the day, 6 muck outs would be £30, 6 pick outs would be £9, that's £54. Haying at £1 takes you to £60. YO is losing £20. And that is assuming that that day all 6 horses that groom is in charge of ask for assistance, and assistance for everything, but it's a DIY yard, so people do everything themselves unless they ask for assistance - the status quo is no help unless urgent. Actually doing those 6 horses, that's a best case scenario. 

To be honest, at £10 an hour you're working for 16p a minute, a job that takes 10 minutes will cost £1.60, 30 minutes £4.80 ish. When you break it down, the costs don't seem that unreasonable. That money goes straight to the groom, nothing to the YO, so your £1.60 job may cost £2 so the YO can make 40p. It's not unreasonable. Especially when you add in what you would be happy being paid an hour. No wonder grooms in the UK have a hard time, no-one wants to pay them!


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## chocolategirl (20 July 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I think GS, sport horse and millipops have it covered.

 I've never understood why people expect very cheap/free parking for lorries and trailers-if you had to park them at a caravan park if you can't have them at home, you'd have to pay. Yards don't exist to subsidise people's luxury hobby.
		
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Well said!


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## galaxy (20 July 2016)

ester said:



			Not all small DIY yards have staff though, hence we just try to communicate. Most out in pairs seems to work well as it is always possible to bring two in together without any extra effort from anyone. we've never had a situ of anyone taking the pee though and when my field sharer was always down first in the morning I would always say either happy to pay or return favours
		
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Yes but op is looking for a yard where services are available. If she doesn't want her horse out by himself, it's fairer to pay to have the horse brought in than rely on other liveries. 

The yard I mentioned never had an issue for years either, until that one person and it really created friction at the yard.


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## Mongoose11 (20 July 2016)

I'd be seriously miffed to be on a yard with a 'no horse left out rule' if it involved liveries having to bring the last horse in. If your horse is a stress head then I think it's your responsibility to pay to have it brought in at a sensible time every day.


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## Micropony (21 July 2016)

Bottom line is that if we want our horses looked after nicely when we can't be there, it's not cheap. 

There's a reason that part livery often works out cheaper than DIY with a few services on top, which is that it enables YOs to plan and manage staffing levels much more effectively, because they know pretty much what needs doing and how many person hours it takes. Plus the stuff that's already been said about how it's quicker for the staff to do things they do regularly when they know where all the horse's stuff is and it's part of the regular routine. So I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to pay a bit of a premium for occasional services to suit your convenience as a DIY livery. 

And as for paying for trailer/lorry parking, why would someone expect to get that for free? Takes up at least as much space as a stable after all.

Best of luck OP with finding a yard that works for you and your horse. Nothing's perfect but I'm sure you'll be able to find somewhere that will suit.


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## honetpot (21 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Its all about what people are willing to pay and the feeling of not being ripped off in the process.  There is a shop by us for example that charges £1.00 for three standard Mars Bars.  If you go anywhere else they are 79p each!  I know where I would go if I wanted a Mars bar.
		
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 You are paying 79p usually because the shop is in a convenient place and they are selling petrol or a newsagents, there is very little mark up on confectionary so unless you sell a lot you have to charge more. 
  If they are paying the national living wage, you want someone competent, who is insured and its convenient for you anything under £2.50 is cheap.


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## concorde (21 July 2016)

I would not bring in another liveries horse ( except in emergency ) if the yard had a bring in the last horse rule. I am a customer not an employee.
If liveries know they will always be last to the yard and their horse won't stay out alone then really they need full livery.


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## AdorableAlice (21 July 2016)

Interesting comments which have reinforced my thoughts that some horse owners view yard owners as charitable mugs and not knowledgeable specialist service providers running a business that has to make a profit and provide a living to the owner.


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## applecart14 (21 July 2016)

concorde said:



			I would not bring in another liveries horse ( except in emergency ) if the yard had a bring in the last horse rule. I am a customer not an employee.
If liveries know they will always be last to the yard and their horse won't stay out alone then really they need full livery.
		
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A few points

I've always brought in another horse if mine was the last one out.  I see this as standard practice, I don't mind doing this in the slightest. I often work Sunday mornings free of charge and will feed and turn out the horses or feed and get them in depending on time of year as long as its shared with other liveries on a rota type of basis.
I don't have a problem with my horse going out because I am worried he will get injured so much as I do that I am worried he will injure others because I think initially he would be a bit overwhelmed and silly. If others are prepared to take that risk then that is fine, but I feel its only fair to warn YO's or other liveries.
I have always paid for my horse to be brought in by the yard in the winter when they come in at three or four or whatever and have been happy to do so.
I didn't say I thought £2.00 was unreasonable whoever sad that.
I don't view yard owners as charitable mugs Adorable Alice, I never said that. What I do object to is when they split charge a silly amount for throwing a hay tub over the door which is already made up and bought by me, and pre-wet by me too! (£3.00 - come on!) and when they charge £2.50 to bring in a horse and then charge an extra £1.50 to pick out its feet (90 seconds tops) (not that I would have that anyway for reasons explained previously).  I have always been happy paying the going rate at the yards I have been on, I did not say I hadn't but some people are a little avaricious when it comes to charging for extras as my previous two examples state.
I am going to stay where I am for now and see what happens with the sale. Its a horrid situation to be in for all. I hope the buyer decides not to sell.
I have my name down for a yard I was at previously and I am excited that hopefully I can move there albeit on a long waiting list.

Anyway thanks for everyone's comments, interesting reading.


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## popsdosh (21 July 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Interesting comments which have reinforced my thoughts that some horse owners view yard owners as charitable mugs and not knowledgeable specialist service providers running a business that has to make a profit and provide a living to the owner.
		
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Im with you AA those that want DIY get what they want if you want more use part livery.

Im sorry to have to point out the obvious AC but you are the  sort of owner who has led to a lot of YOs calling it a day to be honest you sound like a nightmare. If you run a DIY yard in all honesty you dont want to be doing                                            all the extras thats the whole point of it. We used to run a DIY yard wih 35+ horses and to be honest the best day was the one when the last  one left !!


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## EmmaB (21 July 2016)

I would say if the owner has requested their horse not be left on its own and will pay to have it bought in earlier then fine, or if clearly distressed then yes bring it in, but I wouldn't be happy with that rule as I want my horse turned out as long as possible, not having to come in when everyone else does (if we are talking diy).

I was once on a small diy yard where you were allowed winter turnout but every single other horse stayed in full time over winter due to the owners choice, so mine went out alone everyday and was happy. He really isn't bothered and was much happier being out alone than stuck in with the others. 

Diy owners don't want to be doing loads of extra which is why they charge for them. It's probably easier to find a part livery yard


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## ester (21 July 2016)

You said in the first post that £2.50 was unreasonable for a bring in, do you really begrudge that extra 50p if you think £2 would be ok?


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## applecart14 (21 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Im sorry to have to point out the obvious AC but you are the  sort of owner who has led to a lot of YOs calling it a day to be honest you sound like a nightmare.
		
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 Wholly inaccurate statement, totally unfounded and speculative and totally untrue (not that makes a blind bit of difference on this forum).


I have always done more than my fair share around the yard helping out without payment, feeding, getting horses in and turning them out at weekends. 
 I have always paid my bills on time.
I have always gone out of my way to create a pleasant atmosphere.
I have always abided by yard rules concerning curfew times, turn out, etc
I have gone out of my way to assist the yard in making it more pleasant for all, by supplying show jumps and chairs and other equipment that I managed to salvage from my previous job that were being thrown away.  
I have always done my fair share on helping in other ways like lending people things or helping them with their horses when they have been ill or away on holiday
I have always kept my stable, my paddock and my space clean and tidy and swept up after myself.
I have always been courteous and polite to staff and fellow liveries and tried not to get involved in yard politics 


Furthermore, I have been on my last yard for 10 years, the one before that five, and before that four and my current one over 2 years now, so not quite the nightmare you unfairly point out.


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## applecart14 (21 July 2016)

ester said:



			You said in the first post that £2.50 was unreasonable for a bring in, do you really begrudge that extra 50p if you think £2 would be ok?
		
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Look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.  

It equates to £130 if you only have weekdays or around £170 if you include some weekends.  Where this applies to turnout also you are looking at £260 or £340 respectively so yes it does make a difference, of course it does.  You have to look at the wider picture Ester.


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## ihatework (21 July 2016)

Well applecart ultimately it's down to economics.
If you can find what you are looking for at the price you want to pay then everything is hunky dory.
If you cannot, then it's most likely your expectations are unreasonable rather than yards 'ripping you off'


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## applecart14 (21 July 2016)

ihatework said:



			Well applecart ultimately it's down to economics.
If you can find what you are looking for at the price you want to pay then everything is hunky dory.
If you cannot, then it's most likely your expectations are unreasonable rather than yards 'ripping you off'
		
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I don't think I ever said that I felt yards were 'ripping me off' in general, just the one that I mentioned many years ago. I do feel that some prices are over inflated, but like you say it is down to economics.  Whilst someone might be happy to pay £90 per week, in some parts of the country others would be aghast at paying more than £60.

My current yard is very reasonably priced for what we get which is why I would like to remain if I could (as well as all the other plus's that I mentioned previously).


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## Micropony (21 July 2016)

£90 a week, I wish!


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## arlosmum (21 July 2016)

Why is your current yard up for sale, Applecart?


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## applecart14 (21 July 2016)

arlosmum said:



			Why is your current yard up for sale, Applecart?
		
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Hi Arlosmum - the YO is selling for personal reasons that I don't really want to go into on here - the horsey community being what it is, someone always knows someone.  She is hoping the new owners will keep her two on as liveries otherwise she will be looking around also.

 I am not sure that it will sell that quick so I am going to hold on for now and if a buyer is found hopefully we will get a little notice. Trouble is then, we will all be looking for very limited livery spaces.  Its a nice yard with good facilities so not sure how quickly it will sell due to the ties.


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## applecart14 (21 July 2016)

Micropony said:



			£90 a week, I wish!
		
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Well you can obviously afford where you are or you would leave.


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## Kylara (21 July 2016)

It might cost a lot to have your horse turned out and brought in during the week, but that's because you are on DIY and the YO obviously does DIY (like most people) so they can get money for renting the space (like the storage locker companies). So you'll pay a premium to have assistance as the yard is geared up for that. However, it really does sound like you'd be better off looking for part livery where things like to/bi are factored into the cost and the YO knows it happens every single day, so the price can go down because they know they will be doing it every day, they get into the routine, they know the horse's quirks. 
My part livery is £120 a week and includes absolutely everything except popping on walker, full daily groom, and exercise. I discount if people want to help out with mucking out etc at £5 a muck out as that's what I pay myself/groom per muck out, and I take out food cost if they don't need hard feed.

I hate DIY and assisted DIY because as a YO I would never know if people will turn up, if horses get turned out/mucked out or fed/hayed. I like the yard to be done as soon as possible with muck outs and to/bi so I can get on with the schooling and exercise of the horses under my care. I can't be waiting around for someone to rock up at 9am and start to do their horse, or ring me at 9am saying can I do it please. It completely ruins routine and tbh the hassle of that isn't worth the stable rent. Not to mention people manage land badly and get pissy if YO talks to them about the routine. Part livery and above means the horses are always taken care of, they are always in/out/fed/mucked out whether the owner is there or not and it ensures I as YO know that everything is ok and I can get on with working with the horses. I have a schooling client in at the minute and never been on horse walker before. So it's having to be supervised and now up to 10 minutes. It has to be supervised because it stops and randomly turns around a bit, getting better every time, but still needs supervision and needs to be on the walker on his own. So whilst it has messed with the routine I know if I pop him on the walker first, chill for 10 minutes and then pop him back in his stable with his day hay and then muck everything out and stick other horses on the walker it all works well. But a DIY person could mess that routine right up very quickly, simply by not necessarily always doing the same thing.


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## ester (21 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.  

It equates to £130 if you only have weekdays or around £170 if you include some weekends.  Where this applies to turnout also you are looking at £260 or £340 respectively so yes it does make a difference, of course it does.  You have to look at the wider picture Ester.
		
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It's ok, I can do the maths. It's pittance in terms of annual horse keeping costs though and I'm just surprised you can be so aghast when someone suggests you think £2 is too much when £2.50 apparently certainly is.


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## YorksG (21 July 2016)

I think that a lot of livery customers forget that the market is just that. There are an awful lot of people on this forum who shout about how they are customers who should have the treatment appropriate  to them spending money, but seem to then begrudge YO charging an economic amount. We have our own place, but can't get our wagon round, so we pay a neighbour for the space to park it off road, he has accesible space, we pay, that is the market.


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## milliepops (21 July 2016)

YorksG said:



			I think that a lot of livery customers forget that the market is just that. There are an awful lot of people on this forum who shout about how they are customers who should have the treatment appropriate  to them spending money, but seem to then begrudge YO charging an economic amount. We have our own place, but can't get our wagon round, so we pay a neighbour for the space to park it off road, he has accesible space, we pay, that is the market.
		
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absolutely, and you either have to cough up, or make a sacrifice in terms of expectations.... or sell up if it's all too expensive.  them's the options


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## applecart14 (21 July 2016)

ester said:



			It's ok, I can do the maths. It's pittance in terms of annual horse keeping costs though and I'm just surprised you can be so aghast when someone suggests you think £2 is too much when £2.50 apparently certainly is.
		
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I get the feeling you are just being argumentative and challenging for the sake of it Ester.  I wasn't aghast at all.
In answer to your question you have to have a ceiling limit somewhere, its like anything, you have a price you don't want to go over, that's common sense.   

It might be a pittance to you but when weighed up against the costs of three different supplements, hard feed, shavings, insurance, farrier, vets bills, petrol, fly spray and the myriad of other things horse ownership entails (all of which may be a pittance individually) it can become very costly when all put together.  I will not go over my head, I don't feel comfortable with that. I would rather live within my means.

I expressed surprise in my initial post at the cost of extras that can bring a £38 DIY livery up to over £75 per week.  I did not slate YO's (who have to earn a living) or anyone else for that matter. I personally would not have my own livery yard, I have seen to clear how people struggle to cope running them, and to make money.

If I won the lottery tomorrow I would not go to a super duper state of the art full livery yard that (for example) charges £250 per week either, not matter who it was ran by!  No matter how much money I had, I would always watch my money, but I guess that's just me - each to their own and all that.  I am just careful with money and I think its sad if I were to be ridiculed because of it.


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## applecart14 (21 July 2016)

Kylara said:



			It I hate DIY and assisted DIY because as a YO I would never know if people will turn up, if horses get turned out/mucked out or fed/hayed. .
		
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Its been about five or six years now since I last didn't turn up to do my horse and that was only because I was in bed with a slipped disc and Dad did him for me for a few days.  I am always there in the evening and would never leave my horse unmucked out or not fed/hayed and the DIY's I know live by the same principle.

I have often heard there is more money to be made out of having DIY's with extras than having part liveries but I am not sure if that is true or no.


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## Mongoose11 (21 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.  

It equates to £130 if you only have weekdays or around £170 if you include some weekends.  Where this applies to turnout also you are looking at £260 or £340 respectively so yes it does make a difference, of course it does.  You have to look at the wider picture Ester.
		
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Of course it makes a difference and so it should. With your daily services you are moving from DIY to assisted or part which means the price is going to increase. You either need to stop being suprised by this or go back to pure DIY.


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## concorde (21 July 2016)

Applecart. I don't know why you keep comparing things to a DIY price when you are clearly not looking for DIY livery.


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## applecart14 (21 July 2016)

Mongoose11 said:



			Of course it makes a difference and so it should. With your daily services you are moving from DIY to assisted or part which means the price is going to increase. You either need to stop being suprised by this or go back to pure DIY.
		
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I have never been on pure DIY - I have always been on assisted DIY. I wish people would read my OP properly.  Where I was before was £65 per week all in, included free turnout or one bring in daily and hay included (and haylage and straw).  Where I am now is about £65.00 per week all in, hay turnout/bring in.

I am not going to comment on this post anymore as I can see where it is heading.


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## Mongoose11 (21 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			I have never been on pure DIY - I have always been on assisted DIY. I wish people would read my OP properly.  Where I was before was £65 per week all in, included free turnout or one bring in daily and hay included (and haylage and straw).  Where I am now is about £65.00 per week all in, hay turnout/bring in.

I am not going to comment on this post anymore as I can see where it is heading.
		
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Ok, remove the word 'back' from my post and all is well. The point is the same.


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## indie1282 (21 July 2016)

I think £65 per week all in including turnout/bring in sounds like a good deal and tbh I don't think you are going to get as good a deal as that anywhere else unfortunately....

I'm full DIY on a small yard and we all help each other out if we need to but on a previous yard ' services' were about £1.50 - £2.00 a time. That means it would cost £1.50 to put a pre made feed left outside the stable in for the horse..but it would be the same price to walk the horse out to the field which could take up to 10 mins. 

My friend has a yard and she charges £1.50 for all extras - that could be as simple as checking water in the field to changing rugs and turning out. She said its all evens itself out in the end!


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## KautoStar1 (21 July 2016)

You can't really put a price on good livery IMO.  Having experienced many nutters over the years, I am now on part livery and its about as expensive as some full livery in my area, but the YO is very experienced, does what she says shes going to do and the horse is settled and happy.   We aren't really a livery yard though, just a private farm with about 4 other 'liveries', all of which are DIY and one girl runs her own business from the yard.  We don't have any rules per say, other than we keep the place tidy, poo pick our own fields and keep an eye out for each other and each others horses.   No-one is responsible for anyone elses horses, but as sensible people with good horsemanship skills, none of us would leave a horse out on its own if it were upset or we knew that a particular horse couldn't cope being alone.

I've come across a lot of yard owners who are just that, they own a yard / farm and have had horses for some or all of their lives, but actually have no business skills at all.  So they have no idea how to manage clients or how to price things up accordingly.

I'm not in a position to do DIY, so I have to pay for someone else to do it for me.  If that's the case for you Applecart, then you will have to suck it up too and accept if you want a good and reliable service then you will have to pay for it.  Its worth doing a bit of a cost saving exercise too.  For instance, do you need 3 supplements, could you use different bedding, review your insurance and other purchasing habits for horsey things.  It maybe that you save in some areas to be able to spend in another.


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## wingedhorse (21 July 2016)

It is a real challenge. I have two horses, both competition warmbloods. Both need good hacking, good all year turnout, decent full size lit school, decent basic standard of yard. I work long hours, cannot cover both ends of every day. I also cannot afford decent part livery for two horses. Not with lessons / competing / training / transport etc. And I want these things as part of having horses. I am on a great assisted DIY yard, and two good sharers, and I get up early / am at yard late and it works out. 

In truth I cannot afford two competition horses in full work, and competing, but one will retire soon (he was written off and has come back already). I have a decent job, no mortgage, and no other commitments, and just about manage it.

My yard requires that you buy 7 turnouts or bring ins every week. It is £2.50 for give feed, change rug, pick feet, turn out / bring in. And will do basic emergency stuff e.g. treat wound etc. It is a guaranteed £15 a week per livery, towards the am and pm groom service that they provide, so they can pay grooms fixed wages, and it is a service offered at fixed times.


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## wingedhorse (21 July 2016)

KautoStar1 said:



			I'm not in a position to do DIY, so I have to pay for someone else to do it for me.  If that's the case for you Applecart, then you will have to suck it up too and accept if you want a good and reliable service then you will have to pay for it.  Its worth doing a bit of a cost saving exercise too.  For instance, do you need 3 supplements, could you use different bedding, review your insurance and other purchasing habits for horsey things.  It maybe that you save in some areas to be able to spend in another.
		
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Echo this I worked out it is the regular consumables, that are the biggest cost. I buy bedding in bulk which is cheaper. I use big bale hay. Etc. 
 &#8211; I have managed to buy unfortified feed in bulk &#8211; significant cost saving. I get lots of things from ebay / FB / freecycle at low cost.

My tack is on house insurance, my third party with BD, my insurance is minimum vet fee cover, fairly high excess. 

I ask my sharer for swaps when I travel with work rather than buying in services if I can. Mine are out nights at the moment &#8211; more time out, less bedding, less hay, less chores.


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## applecart14 (21 July 2016)

No sadly I can't review my supplements as he needs each one, two of which are for health reasons, and the other I have taken him off twice and he has reacted really badly behavioral wise so he cannot really be off that one either.  He can't be bedded on straw for health reasons, my vet has said it would be unwise to do so.  I have the same winter rugs that my previous horses had (even pts/died in) and live at home and Mum and Dad will not put my tack on their home and contents insurance.  I am going to not bother insuring next January and save the money into an account for him instead.  I do my best to save money, I have always been really careful with it, i.e. never had HP or a loan, or even a credit card.  My bank literally had to force me to take a debit card


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## SusieT (21 July 2016)

If you think these people are getting rich doing this  - set up your own yard and run it - you can't afford that or don't have time? In that case you have to pay to do that and there is a price to having someone available to do the jobs you can't.
If you hired a free lance groom to do it it would cost more, if you don't have time to do the work, and can't afford to pay someone to do it then you need to review having a horse - DIY is priced so taht people do it themselves, if they did everyones 'quick' jobs it would soon add up to them doin ga lot of free labour!


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## william95 (21 July 2016)

sport horse said:



			I think the 'real' cost of having someone available to carry out these odd tasks is not being appreciated.  Assuming the yard employs someone full/part time, they have to pay NI and do a proper payroll - it is now quite complicated and I for one actually pay an accountant to run this payroll. 

Regular staff are entitled to 28 days holiday per annum minimum by law. This has to be costed into any prices charged out to liveries.

Very soon anyone employing even one person will have to run a pension scheme for staff - that will cost.

So, are you expecting the YO themselves to be available, at any moment/day, to pick up the bits you do not want or are unable to do on a DIY basis?  Why should they do that for no proper reward? They also should be declaring any such income for tax purposes.

Are you expecting freelance people to be available in each yard to pick up the bits that you find yourselves unable to do?  Are you expecting such a person not to charge for their travel and time while travelling?

Are you expecting that all this work be done on the blackmarket? ie cash in hand with no tax  being paid?  That is illegal. A proper freelancer should be self employed and paying their tax etc.

DIY means Do it Yourself. If you cannot because you have work/ family commitments. then it should be part livery.
		
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Very well said. This is exactly the reason I now have to employ staff as the paperwork side of running a proper, legitimate yard now takes as much time as I used to spend on the yard. These are the hidden costs of running a yard that customers rarely, if ever, consider.


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## MileAMinute (21 July 2016)

DIY = do it yourself.
You can't or are unable to do it yourself, for whatever reason.
I'd suggest part livery.


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## rachk89 (21 July 2016)

I just pay up to be honest. I put my horse on full livery during the week in winter so he gets put out and brought in with the others and his stable is done so I can enjoy riding (as much as you can at -10c).

I pay to get him put out at the weekend too as I like a lie in. Yes I am lazy but I pay their fees so they do it. I do his stable at the weekend and bring in sometimes bring in another horse if it's late to help them out. 

They do a great service and the man who runs the place has pulled my horses mane and plaited it for free despite my horse dragging him and a teenage worker around the stable as he hates his mane being pulled (he did give up eventually when he realised they didn't care about what he was doing). I think for that the yard owner is a saint so yeah I will pay his prices. He actually once the night before a show plaited everyone's horses and tidied them up and i dont think he charged anyone. Yard owners like him are rare now I think.


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## gina2201 (21 July 2016)

I'm on DIY with assisted and pay £2.50 to have someone turnout or bring in which due to my job meaning I leave my house at 5am I think £12.50 a week on top of my regular bill is good value? Well its value to me as it saves me not only half hour of time driving to/from and the 10-15 mins at the yard at silly o'clock at least!


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## AdorableAlice (21 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			The chap that I spoke to all those years ago was just setting up the yard and we were in email conversation about me possibly being a livery.  When I sent him a list of my requirements for my horse which were quite basic really (turnout, bring in, chuck a tub of hay over the door) he sent me a price list itemizing each item and other items as well. I emailed back and said I was sorry but felt he was too expensive for my needs and he replied that he had looked at other yards in the area and based his prices on that.  I knew that was a lie, so I sent him a polite and chatty email back telling him how much they charged for the same thing at two other yards within a three mile radius.  but still he felt he was justified in charging £3 for a tub of ready made up soaked hay to be chucked over the door, and an additional £1.50 for picking out a foot on top of the £2.00 he was already charging to bring the horse in!  (On my previous yard I asked that they left my horse with legs unwashed and feet unpicked. They got the horses in at 3pm and I got there just after five pm by which time his legs were dried off and I could brush the mud off and save myself the money and pick out his feet too).

Anyway yesterday I rang the same chap (I had kept his phone number) just to see if he had found out through lack of liveries that his prices were indeed much too high and he informed me that the yard hadn't worked out and he had left and was now working in London.  I am guessing it was because he was not competitive and his prices were too high which is what I had tried to tell him in the first place.

I will be considering part livery, but around here this can mean many things depending on the yard and person.
		
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If you use facebook, have a look on Warwickshire and Worcestershire Riders Page, there is a new yard opening, it looks nice from the pictures.


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## applecart14 (22 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			I expressed surprise in my initial post at the cost of extras that can bring a £38 DIY livery up to over £75 per week.  I did not slate YO's (who have to earn a living) or anyone else for that matter. I personally would not have my own livery yard, I have seen to clear how people struggle to cope running them, and to make money.
		
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SusieT said:



			If you think these people are getting rich doing this  - set up your own yard and run it - you can't afford that or don't have time? In that case you have to pay to do that and there is a price to having someone available to do the jobs you can't.
If you hired a free lance groom to do it it would cost more, if you don't have time to do the work, and can't afford to pay someone to do it then you need to review having a horse - DIY is priced so taht people do it themselves, if they did everyones 'quick' jobs it would soon add up to them doin ga lot of free labour!
		
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Susie T I already stated I wouldn't run my own yard as I know how much things cost, read my replies before you rudely reply to me please.
Besides which I absolutely adore my present job and would not want to leave it for anything.


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## MS123 (22 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Im with you AA those that want DIY get what they want if you want more use part livery.

Im sorry to have to point out the obvious AC but you are the  sort of owner who has led to a lot of YOs calling it a day to be honest you sound like a nightmare. If you run a DIY yard in all honesty you dont want to be doing                                            all the extras thats the whole point of it. We used to run a DIY yard wih 35+ horses and to be honest the best day was the one when the last  one left !!
		
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Totally unnecessary to call the OP a nightmare, how rude!!


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## YorksG (22 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Susie T I already stated I wouldn't run my own yard as I know how much things cost, read my replies before you rudely reply to me please.
Besides which I absolutely adore my present job and would not want to leave it for anything.
		
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I'm no sure that your are fully aware of the costs though, hence your unwillingnes/inability to understand why a primarily DIY yard charges a premium for supplying services and making themselves available during the working day. If the services you need equate to part livery, and that would work out cheaper, then I suspect that would  be the best route for you.


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## applecart14 (22 July 2016)

YorksG said:



			I'm no sure that your are fully aware of the costs though, hence your unwillingnes/inability to understand why a primarily DIY yard charges a premium for supplying services and making themselves available during the working day. If the services you need equate to part livery, and that would work out cheaper, then I suspect that would  be the best route for you.
		
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YorksG

If you can honestly say hand on heart that you think that £3.50 to bring a horse in from a field (leave its rug on) and just pick out its feet is a good price here in the Midlands, and if you can honestly say that you would be happy to pay £3.00 for someone to throw a tub of wet hay (already bought from the yard and pre-wet by the yourself) and not even emptied out of the tub onto the floor but just dumped on top of the bed-  then so be it, but I can't see how it should come to a surprise that most people would see that as a little pricey.  That was all I was saying.

Oh, and none of the three YO's who I left messages have come back to me, two I left a second message with yesterday.

I am staying where I am until such time notice is given to us all and the house and yard is sold.


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## saddlesore (22 July 2016)

I'm surprised how many DIY YOs don't seem to want to do services. I appreciate not everyone does but all yards Ive been on services have been offered as standard and most people made use of them. I pay to have my horse brought in every morning to help with his weight and skin issues and pay £2.50 for him to be brought in and fly sheet/mask off. I also pay for 2 full livery days in the winter to give me 2 days a week to spend with family/friends. I pay a premium for it, but I'm happy to do so as I feel it's a fair arrangement. I imagine it would be a good earner for those who run a yard themselves, assuming of course that is their main source of income.


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## Stockers (22 July 2016)

£3.50 for a bring in (sans rug change) and pick out feet seems reasonable to me on the basis that 1/ YO has to ensure their presence at the yard at bring in time. 2/ The act of brining in can be risky, ditto, picking out fee. 

If you work on the basis that the walk to the field, catch horse, bring in, settle in stable and pick out feet might take 5-10 minutes (if no shennanigans) factoring in the risk and inconvenience factor then I'd say £3.50 is about right.

£3 for chucking in a mde up feed I do think abit steep but if it saved me getting up to feed my own horse then I'd pay for the convenience.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (22 July 2016)

Wow I do DIY. I used to go up twice a day and feed and turnout, then the YO offered to put mine out for a small charge on my weekly livery as mine was going out at 6.30am and the rest weren't happy he was being fed and turned out without them. I leave a feed, he is fed, turned out then brought in with the others at night in winter as YO prefers not to leave a horse out even though he and My horse are fine with it.

I wouldn't class this as assisted livery as its at his convenience. Yes I pay for it ( a very small amount) but he isn't changing rugs or doing anything other than tossing a feed bucket over a door and the putting a horse in a field.

As usual people are berating others just because their understanding of a term isn't the same as theirs. Part livery to me isn't going to be the same as someone else, neither is full and I worked in a full livery yard for years.


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## applecart14 (22 July 2016)

Stockers said:



			£3 for chucking in a mde up feed I do think abit steep but if it saved me getting up to feed my own horse then I'd pay for the convenience.
		
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It was during the day when I was at work not when I wanted a lie in.  And it wasn't a made up feed that saved me getting up to do my horse, it was hay that he needed during the day whilst stood in the stable after coming in from the field overnight i.e. his lunch time hay.


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## milliepops (22 July 2016)

saddlesore said:



			I'm surprised how many DIY YOs don't seem to want to do services
......*assuming *of course that is their main source of income.
		
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^^ this.  May be a bit of an assumption. My yard is on a working farm, the YO has another unrelated business and also mucks in with the farm. She will do services with a bit of advance notice (like if I have to stay away for work) or in an emergency, but it might not be exactly at the time I'd prefer etc... because she has other responsibilities.

but the clue's in the name - it's a DIY yard   I'm supposed to do it meself :lol:


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## criso (22 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			YorksG

If you can honestly say hand on heart that you think that £3.50 to bring a horse in from a field (leave its rug on) and just pick out its feet is a good price here in the Midlands, and if you can honestly say that you would be happy to pay £3.00 for someone to throw a tub of wet hay (already bought from the yard and pre-wet by the yourself) and not even emptied out of the tub onto the floor but just dumped on top of the bed-  then so be it, but I can't see how it should come to a surprise that most people would see that as a little pricey.  That was all I was saying.

.
		
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I guess in depends on how they structure their  prices.  Yards I've been on have  a fixed charge for bring in/turnouts  which includes feet picked out, legs washed off, rugs changed, putting on/taking off turnout boots etc. You effectively pay for that enhanced service whether you use it or not.   Prices between £2.50 and £4.00.  

I know of one which charges a lower bring in/turnout price with add on  charges for feet picking out, rugs, boots and leg washing, which would be better for someone like you but this approach seems less common round here than the all in approach.

So at the weekends (when it's a higher rate) I do pay £3.50 for a catch in, but it would include giving feed and for the one that needs it, soaking his hay before putting the net in as well as any combination of rugs etc I decide to use.


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## skint1 (22 July 2016)

Although it hasn't really resolved the OPs issue, this is an interesting thread. To me personally, I'd pay more for some kind of enhanced DIY livery- If I could buy the elements that i needed such as bring in change rugs and give (pre-made) evening feed it would take a lot of pressure and worry off me in the winter months.  We tend to do do favours for each other at our yard, it mostly works well for everyone. 

Hope the yard search (when it resumes) goes well and that you find a place that suits you! It is a minefield out there!


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## 9tails (22 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			It was during the day when I was at work not when I wanted a lie in.  And it wasn't a made up feed that saved me getting up to do my horse, it was hay that he needed during the day whilst stood in the stable after coming in from the field overnight i.e. his lunch time hay.
		
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You can't be there, though.  It isn't an unreasonable cost if he has a captive audience who rely on him to do it.  He has to stop what he was working on, traipse to your stable and throw the hay in.  TBH I'd just give him a bigger double netted net.


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## chaps89 (22 July 2016)

Another take on it could be what's the equivalent cost in your own time?
For example, I've asked my groom to feed and move the electric fence on saturday morning so I can have a bit of a lie in and only make one visit to the yard.
I'm on a tight budget so considered whether I wanted to pay £5 for what will be 15/20 mins for the groom to do (including her travel time) as it's not essential to have her do it and it's easily done myself. However, if I add in the 20 minutes each way plus the 5/10 minutes on the yard, it definitely works out to more than £5, so it's cheaper than doing it myself. But it's more of a tangible cost than fuel (which is already in my car) and my time (although I earn more than £5 in 50 minutes) as I don't pay myself, and that's why it seems expensive.
When you're short on time and cash, you need to work out how much of your routine you can alter to do things yourself and how much you can't and therefore suck up the costs of having some-one else doing it for you when you can't.


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## applecart14 (22 July 2016)

milliepops said:



			^^ this.  May be a bit of an assumption. My yard is on a working farm, the YO has another unrelated business and also mucks in with the farm. She will do services with a bit of advance notice (like if I have to stay away for work) or in an emergency, but it might not be exactly at the time I'd prefer etc... because she has other responsibilities.

but the clue's in the name - it's a DIY yard   I'm supposed to do it meself :lol:
		
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Ha, ha, ha, very funny.  You are actually incorrect.  There is DIY and there is assisted DIY.  DIY is purely you do everything yourself.  Assisted means that you get help with turnout or bring in. I have never been on a purely DIY yard and never would.


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## applecart14 (22 July 2016)

9tails said:



			You can't be there, though.  It isn't an unreasonable cost if he has a captive audience who rely on him to do it.  He has to stop what he was working on, traipse to your stable and throw the hay in.  TBH I'd just give him a bigger double netted net.
		
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Well like I have explained about ten times I never went to the yard because of the extortionate costs, which everyone I spoke to agreed were extortionate.  I would have given him a net or even a bigger net but the yard I was at previously insisted on tying nets about an inch above the floor which is why I used tubs there and why I wanted to go forwards, because I don't trust people to tie nets safely, you'd be amazed at how many tie onto hay racks for example, or stable bars and don't use a thinned out piece of twine.  Either that or they don't tie the string through the bottom ring of the net and the horse tugs on the net and the net gets torn.


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## RunToEarth (22 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Well like I have explained about ten times I never went to the yard because of the extortionate costs, which everyone I spoke to agreed were extortionate.  I would have given him a net or even a bigger net but the yard I was at previously insisted on tying nets about an inch above the floor which is why I used tubs there and why I wanted to go forwards, because I don't trust people to tie nets safely, you'd be amazed at how many tie onto hay racks for example, or stable bars and don't use a thinned out piece of twine.  Either that or they don't tie the string through the bottom ring of the net and the horse tugs on the net and the net gets torn.
		
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If you can't trust people to tie a Hay net, I would say your only option is DIY. 

Personally £2-3 to bring in and save me the journey is pennies, but if it is regular you should look at part livery, or DIY and find a freelancer to do the rest.


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## milliepops (22 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Ha, ha, ha, very funny.  You are actually incorrect.  There is DIY and there is assisted DIY.  DIY is purely you do everything yourself.  Assisted means that you get help with turnout or bring in. I have never been on a purely DIY yard and never would.
		
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good for you. However, my response was to another poster as quoted, wondering why DIY YOs don't do more services. It was just to mention that some YOs have other businesses and aren't available all day - that's why they run DIY yards.

I quite agree that assisted DIY is different... but that's not what the post was about, by definition.


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## YorksG (22 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			YorksG

If you can honestly say hand on heart that you think that £3.50 to bring a horse in from a field (leave its rug on) and just pick out its feet is a good price here in the Midlands, and if you can honestly say that you would be happy to pay £3.00 for someone to throw a tub of wet hay (already bought from the yard and pre-wet by the yourself) and not even emptied out of the tub onto the floor but just dumped on top of the bed-  then so be it, but I can't see how it should come to a surprise that most people would see that as a little pricey.  That was all I was saying.

Oh, and none of the three YO's who I left messages have come back to me, two I left a second message with yesterday.

I am staying where I am until such time notice is given to us all and the house and yard is sold.
		
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It would cost me considerably more than that to have hay put in at lunch time, as I would have to pay a freelance groom to travel to our yard (no public transport), do the job and travel to their home again. The issue is that if you can't do it yourself, for whatever reason, then you are somewhat at the mercy of the YO and you are paying for their availability, each working day.


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## popsdosh (22 July 2016)

YorksG said:



			It would cost me considerably more than that to have hay put in at lunch time, as I would have to pay a freelance groom to travel to our yard (no public transport), do the job and travel to their home again. The issue is that if you can't do it yourself, for whatever reason, then you are somewhat at the mercy of the YO and you are paying for their availability, each working day.
		
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Dont you know they are sitting about doing nothing ,waiting for the next opportunity to earn a few pence!!


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## SO1 (22 July 2016)

The problem with assisted DIY is that they are never going to know who is going to use their services and when. Some days no-one may require any services but someone would still have to be there and be paid to be to there in case someone did need something. The price has to take into consideration days where not much assistance is required and the groom still has to be paid even though there is no income from assistance. 

Yards with high prices for assistance may be yards where not many people normally require help so they have to keep the prices for assistance at a rate that covers the costs of someone being there in case someone needs assistance. Alternatively they make keep assisted prices high to deter people from asking for too much help if they don't want to offer much assistance or to encourage people to take up part livery where it is easier to work out what is going to be needed and when and easier to allocate staff time. 

If you know you are going to have the same routine of assistance every week then you might be able to negotiate a better deal than if you use ad hoc services as the yard will know that the income is going to be coming in on those days. If you are able to plan so you have the same assistance each week you could see if you could pay a set price, for example if you know you need turnout out every day five days a week then they give you a weekly all inclusive price but with this you might still have to pay the price even if some days you could turn out yourself for example if you were on annual leave.


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## Mrs B (22 July 2016)

On the general topic or DIY vs. assisted DIY ...

I think (and am sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong!) that many yards are purely DIY and don't offer extras because they are part of a farm and are allowed to rent out livery space for DIYers ... but these days, if they start offering 'services' (even turning a horse out) their business rate would change?

If this is true, I presume if a yard does offer assisted livery places or charge 'extras', they're either banking on no one saying anything, or have registered a change of use with the local authority along with gaining any relevant permissions ...

May well be wrong, but just mulling it over ...


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## Kylara (22 July 2016)

There are insurance implications as well. DIY yard insurance is much cheaper as the YO is not responsible for horse care. As soon as you start offering services (assistance, part, full) then the YO has some to all responsibility for the horse and the yard insurance increases. 

I don't offer DIY but if I did my insurance cost would go down as I would be responsible for fewer horses. It also goes up the more horses are under one person (usually ok up to about 6/7 then it gets crazy as they want you to hire someone to spread responsibility) so assistance for one YO on a yard of 20 horses can make a huge insurance bill compared to pure DIY.


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## criso (22 July 2016)

Nearly all the yards I have been on (including one on a farm) don't hire staff and provide services directly.  The yard manager is self employed and offers a service to the liveries directly.  So it means each month I pay a stable rent to the yard and then a separate payment for livery services to the ym.


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## Achinghips (22 July 2016)

charlie76 said:



			I am always perplexed by these threads that livery costs are "ridiculous" . 
For some reason people think that us livery yard owners are making a fortune over charging people where in actual fact we are doing well if we break even. 

I am not sure why people think we should do tasks such as catching, hoof picking, rug changing for less than the cost of a Starbucks coffee? 

Whatever the staff do we still have to pay them minimum wage to be there if not more. 

I don't think people quite get the overheads involved with running a decent yard and the hours put in. 

Just for starters with costs.. 
Rent/mortgage
Electric
Water
Business rates
Insurance for yard
Insurance for staff
Accountant costs
Costs for breakages
Staff wages
Loo roll!!!! 
Cess pits emptied
Fuel for tractors etc
Insurance for tractors ext
Purchasing of show jumps which everyone uses
Replacing broken tools and equipment
Replacing broken fencing
Staff training
The list is endless

It is not a money making enterprise, most of us do it for the love of it I can assure you!
		
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This. And if you note, not even topping, fertilising, reseeding, aerating, harrowing field and manège, liming, removing muck heap and treating moss, as well as the price of the equipment and maintenance of it is included in the estimate!


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## honetpot (22 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			YorksG

If you can honestly say hand on heart that you think that £3.50 to bring a horse in from a field (leave its rug on) and just pick out its feet is a good price here in the Midlands, and if you can honestly say that you would be happy to pay £3.00 for someone to throw a tub of wet hay (already bought from the yard and pre-wet by the yourself) and not even emptied out of the tub onto the floor but just dumped on top of the bed-  then so be it, but I can't see how it should come to a surprise that most people would see that as a little pricey.  That was all I was saying.

Oh, and none of the three YO's who I left messages have come back to me, two I left a second message with yesterday.

I am staying where I am until such time notice is given to us all and the house and yard is sold.
		
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 You just do not get it do you.
  I used to sell posh coffee, the coffee beans, cup, lid,milk sugar,cost at the time 7p. Then you have to cover overheads,staffing rent,equipment, insurance. You have to pay these what ever, if you not charge enough to cover these and make a profit you make a loss and close the shop. Even if someone is selling coffee cheaper than you, you can not reduce your price because you will lose money.

Starbucks and Costa, they must buy so much coffee that the cup and the coffee that it probably still does not cost them much more than 7p , but you will pay over £2 and cup because their shops are where you want them and open when you want them. 

So I employ a groom or make time to do the jobs you do not want to do, at say £10per hour, so I have to find four people to have jobs done at £2.50 or I have lost money on that hour, the DIY part of your livery should pay for the rent of the stable and grazing. As someone else has pointed out if its a farm they may have to charge VAT one the whole of the livery if they provide services and have care and custody insurance. The £3 you are charged is what the YO considers enough money to make it worth there while stop what they are doing and do that job. They probably do not want to do it. Builders quote you the earth if they do not want a job, if you take the quote they think its worth the trouble.
  I think you have been lucky where you are and may continue to be lucky , there are a lot of YO/YM who do not work out their costing properly.
  As to people getting back to you, its  very busy time of year, most of the people I know are out till dark getting hay and stacking it if you have any amount of horses.


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## popsdosh (23 July 2016)

Mrs B said:



			On the general topic or DIY vs. assisted DIY ...

I think (and am sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong!) that many yards are purely DIY and don't offer extras because they are part of a farm and are allowed to rent out livery space for DIYers ... but these days, if they start offering 'services' (even turning a horse out) their business rate would change?

If this is true, I presume if a yard does offer assisted livery places or charge 'extras', they're either banking on no one saying anything, or have registered a change of use with the local authority along with gaining any relevant permissions ...

May well be wrong, but just mulling it over ...
		
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VAT as well


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## applecart14 (25 July 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Dont you know they are sitting about doing nothing ,waiting for the next opportunity to earn a few pence!!
		
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You can try and get a rise from me and take the p**s as much as you want.  I know why you are doing it and I find it very tiring. I will stick by my earlier statements. I try and get value for money.  If I can't find it I will go to a yard that can give it me and I have been lucky enough to have been on yards that are good value for money in the past and at the moment too. I really don't want to leave where I am, the horse is very happy there, and the hacking is amazing.  The only reason I am looking is because I fear that if the new buyer already has horses they will not run it as a going concern. Its hard enough finding livery for one, finding livery for one when there are nine others would be a total nightmare.


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## YorksG (25 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			You can try and get a rise from me and take the p**s as much as you want.  I know why you are doing it and I find it very tiring. I will stick by my earlier statements. I try and get value for money.  If I can't find it I will go to a yard that can give it me and I have been lucky enough to have been on yards that are good value for money in the past and at the moment too. I really don't want to leave where I am, the horse is very happy there, and the hacking is amazing.  The only reason I am looking is because I fear that if the new buyer already has horses they will not run it as a going concern. Its hard enough finding livery for one, finding livery for one when there are nine others would be a total nightmare.
		
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The fact that you find it difficult to find "value for money livery", suggests that your "value for money" does not match the YO idea of appropriate renumeration for their time and effort.


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## applecart14 (25 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			I try and get value for money.  If I can't find it I will go to a yard that can give it me and I have been lucky enough to have been on yards that are good value for money in the past and at the moment too. .
		
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YorksG said:



			The fact that you find it difficult to find "value for money livery", suggests that your "value for money" does not match the YO idea of appropriate renumeration for their time and effort.
		
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???????  I just said 'I have been lucky enough to have been on yards that are good value for money in the past and at the moment too' so not sure how you reach that weird conclusion Yorks G but then when has being misquoted ever been a crime on this forum 

I'm not going to add any further to this post as there is really little point when people don't bother to read what I have written.


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## YorksG (25 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			???????  I just said 'I have been lucky enough to have been on yards that are good value for money in the past and at the moment too' so not sure how you reach that weird conclusion Yorks G but then when has being misquoted ever been a crime on this forum 

I'm not going to add any further to this post as there is really little point when people don't bother to read what I have written.
		
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Just to point out your ommission, read what you put about finding livery being a nightmare, selectively quoting isn't helpful imo


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## indie1282 (25 July 2016)

I really don't get what the point of this post is? Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you need extras but you only want to pay what you think is a fair price? 

Nothing wrong with that in theory BUT a yard covers its expenses by charging for livery, extras etc...a price that is agreeable to their current liveries who are obviously happy to pay it. The fact that you don't think its a fair price is irrelevant really as they are not going to change the price just for you - you either pay what they ask or look for another yard. 

Ultimately YOs dont actually need to justify their pricing - they have a service that other people want and at the end of the day they can charge what they like! 

And you keep going on about your bucket of pre wet hay that you would have been charged £3.00 for - the yard failed, probably because he was charging too much- but you chose not to go there because it was too expensive.  So why is that relevant?


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## applecart14 (26 July 2016)

YorksG said:



			Just to point out your ommission, read what you put about finding livery being a nightmare, selectively quoting isn't helpful imo
		
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Only because everyone is full and not because of my criteria.  You are just choosing to argue for the sake of it, not because you have a valid statement to make.

Indie its relevant because when I suggested (how dare I????) that some people charge a lot for livery, I gave this as an example when I was shot down in flames for being so ridiculous.


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## conniegirl (26 July 2016)

Mongoose11 said:



			I'd be seriously miffed to be on a yard with a 'no horse left out rule' if it involved liveries having to bring the last horse in. If your horse is a stress head then I think it's your responsibility to pay to have it brought in at a sensible time every day.
		
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sorry but I disagree. I was at one yard where there wasnt a rule about no horse left alone, I tried to make sure I was always up there as soon after work as I could and my horse was never left out alone, there was no option for buying services from YO or anyone else. one day in winter everyone else on the yard (I was the only one working) decided to bring thier horse in 3 hours earlier than normal and didnt let me know, which meant that as I was at work, unaware and unable to leave anyway my horse was left on his own for 3 hours, by the time I got there he had worked himself into such a state that he was soaked through with white sweat under his rugs, he had lamed himself from galloping up and down the fence screaming for the others. It took me 4 hours to get him dried off again and to stop the break through sweating, he then coliced and I had an enormous vet bill. 
The poor lad was totaly traumitised and went from a pony who could be left on his own for between 30 mins and 45 mins to a pony who paniced as soon as anyone else started bringing in horses. 

Unsuprisingly I left that yard rapidly and would NEVER go to a yard where horses are left out on thier own. 


I'm on assisted DIY currently, I pay £20 for rent of stable, field and use of the school. £10 a week for monday to friday turnout and bring in (no rug changes, no picking out feet) £8 a week for hay and I have to buy my bedding from YO.
My YO will give each horse a cursory once over as she brings them in and deal with emergancies but other then that it is pure DIY.


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## AdorableAlice (26 July 2016)

There is a common theme running through this thread, and I ask the question why do so many horse owners fail to teach their horses to be able to be left alone in a paddock or in the yard.

All the grief and angst that is being detailed could be avoided by simply teaching the horse something so simple.


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## milliepops (26 July 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			There is a common theme running through this thread, and I ask the question why do so many horse owners fail to teach their horses to be able to be left alone in a paddock or in the yard.

All the grief and angst that is being detailed could be avoided by simply teaching the horse something so simple.
		
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I'd agree if it *were *that simple - problem is some of them unlearn it quite easily!  My older mare was always *completely* independent until she had to do box rest alone due to circumstances out of my control. Now if she's left alone she tears around until she injures herself.  Jumps out onto the road, the works. At the age of 19 with (i desperately hope) more years together, I choose to manage that rather than let her keep breaking herself. One day she'll be so broken the only treatment will be a bullet and neither of us want that!

But it's my responsibility to manage that, no one else needs to get involved   I'm not totally precious, the other can be left, she's just a bit noisy to start with and eversohappy to see her pal return.


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## Mongoose11 (26 July 2016)

conniegirl said:



			sorry but I disagree. I was at one yard where there wasnt a rule about no horse left alone, I tried to make sure I was always up there as soon after work as I could and my horse was never left out alone, there was no option for buying services from YO or anyone else. one day in winter everyone else on the yard (I was the only one working) decided to bring thier horse in 3 hours earlier than normal and didnt let me know, which meant that as I was at work, unaware and unable to leave anyway my horse was left on his own for 3 hours, by the time I got there he had worked himself into such a state that he was soaked through with white sweat under his rugs, he had lamed himself from galloping up and down the fence screaming for the others. It took me 4 hours to get him dried off again and to stop the break through sweating, he then coliced and I had an enormous vet bill. 
The poor lad was totaly traumitised and went from a pony who could be left on his own for between 30 mins and 45 mins to a pony who paniced as soon as anyone else started bringing in horses. 

Unsuprisingly I left that yard rapidly and would NEVER go to a yard where horses are left out on thier own. 


I'm on assisted DIY currently, I pay £20 for rent of stable, field and use of the school. £10 a week for monday to friday turnout and bring in (no rug changes, no picking out feet) £8 a week for hay and I have to buy my bedding from YO.
My YO will give each horse a cursory once over as she brings them in and deal with emergancies but other then that it is pure DIY.
		
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No horse would ever be left out at our yard especially if it was getting itself in to a state - that's just cruelty. However, a 'rule' means there is always one that takes advantage. We don't have it as a hard and fast rule and suddenly everyone takes responsibility for their own horse and it's behaviours or pays for services. 

We're not idiots and it seems your lot were.


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## Damnation (26 July 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			There is a common theme running through this thread, and I ask the question why do so many horse owners fail to teach their horses to be able to be left alone in a paddock or in the yard.

All the grief and angst that is being detailed could be avoided by simply teaching the horse something so simple.
		
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I tried to teach her to be left in the field on her own... it just wasn't safe for anyone. She is fine in the stable and on the yard. She is fine turned out first but the second something is taken away from her that is the trigger and it just isn't safe. But then she is brill to handle and I am happy to pay someone or bring someone else's in so I don't see the huge issue. If it because a massive issue I would buy/loan a companion.

Last one was a gem and just didn't give a stuff


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## ester (26 July 2016)

Frank's fine to go out on his own. When everyone else gets pulled in at what he deems around breakfast time including the ones that generally stay out 24/7 so are always there he goes Welsh. It's tricky to stop him being welsh , or a horse and therefore hardwired to want a herd. I don't think it helps the sense of abandonment that our summer fields are some distance away- it also means anyone on the yard cannot see if there is an issue (which is why he did get abandoned a couple of weeks ago, it isn't the end of the world but he doesn't need to get that wound up at his age and he is supposed to be being quiet due to a leg swelling.)
So do let us know the magic technique AA, especially when one is limited by a yard set up (it wasn't an issue at home as everything was in one place rather than down the road and round the corner) and didn't get the beast as a youngster so some things will have been learned already and are always more difficult to unlearn.


the arab on the yard has a mirror in her field which somewhat embarrassingly helps! 

Though I don't think we actually have any 'rules' just that unless otherwise instructed all of us would worry about abandoning one.


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## indie1282 (26 July 2016)

My two have always been kept together since they were babies but I can leave them each on their own - it obviously helps that ive been able to separate them regularly since they were small. My grey wouldn't even notice if he was left on his own! My other horse is a bit shouty but all mouth and no action really....

I do feel sorry for people who cant leave their horses alone :-( but if its an inherited issue then it must be quite difficult to break that habit.


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## applecart14 (26 July 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			There is a common theme running through this thread, and I ask the question why do so many horse owners fail to teach their horses to be able to be left alone in a paddock or in the yard.

All the grief and angst that is being detailed could be avoided by simply teaching the horse something so simple.
		
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Gosh that is a bit of a condescending statement AA. Its not a case of 'failing to teach your horse to be left alone in a paddock'.  Its not having the opportunity or the requirement to do so.   In winter they go out for two hours at a time in a sandpit (because the land is peat based and boggy so no winter turnout in the fields).    I have often turned him out during the summer for a roll after a ride in the sandpit whilst I skip out or before he has his tea and then goes out in the field.  He is fine for half an hour or so in there, but looks uncomfortable and unhappy nevertheless.  The pet pigs go in there overnight and he detests pigs.  He is never completely at ease on his own, never has been.  But then he is quite a spooky type of horse anyway.

In the summer they come in at 6 or 7am after being out overnight.   I work some Saturday or Sundays (when I say work - what I mean is that I will feed all the horses, change rugs and turn them out/or bring them in and feed them depending on the time of year for the YO free of charge when its my turn - we take it in turns as the YO doesn't do weekends).  Then I would have the opportunity to leave my horse out when I got all the others in.  He is fine for about three minutes then he will start pacing up and down. Then he starts calling out. Although he is not unduly 'stressed' he is nevertheless worrying needlessly.  The YO said the other day he is the only horse who can go out first and come in last and not be stupid and he won't be for a while, but there is a limit on this and we are talking minutes and not hours.  

And he isn't silly because HE KNOWS that he will be brought in.  He always has been, he has never been let down. He knows that very soon there is someone that will come for him and of that there is no question. Because he trusts us to not let him down he does his best for us by 'trying' to stay calm, but it is pitiful to see him so worried, but trying his best to not be.

So you see I don't really see the point of teaching him to stay out because the yard owner wouldn't leave him out as the rule is no horses left on their own.  Its been this rule on all the yards I've ever been on.   There is no reason for him to be out on his own. I hate the thought of him unhappy, or anxious. I know how that feels and for me its the worst feeling in the world.  

Over the years of being on yards I have found that there are a lot of horses that are fine going out on there own for a short amount of time. There are others that are fine for longer periods. But in general, once horses are then added, left for a period of time and then brought in and the herd starts to decrease there will be a general stirring and a feeling of vulnerability that is obvious from a prey animals point of view.  This applies whether the horse is in a individual paddock next to others, or is with others in a herd situation.


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## 9tails (26 July 2016)

Is your blood presure really high at the moment, Applecart?  Because you're taking offence to pretty much every post on this thread.  You just need to find somewhere that will cater to your needs, if tardy return of phone calls gets up your nose then that yard ain't going to work for you.


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## applecart14 (26 July 2016)

9tails said:



			Is your blood presure really high at the moment, Applecart?  .
		
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Not at all 9tails.  But it was a bit of a patronising comment to make.  Tarring everyone with the same brush hardly works in real life.


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## AdorableAlice (26 July 2016)

I will reword my comment.

It is a pity that people like me, breeders and producers of young horses do not take the time to teach a young horse to live alone.

The very basic grounding for a young horse should be - accept being alone, be correctly halter broken, tie up and be mannerly.

If the breeder and/or producer puts this in the young horse is set up for life. subject of course to finding itself in the right hands as a mature horse.


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## WeeLassie (26 July 2016)

fatpiggy said:



			That's £18ph assuming they go incredibly slow and take 5 minutes to pick out 4 hooves.  That's alot of money for what is essentially an unskilled task!
		
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I think PROPERLY picking out 4 hooves (including putting on headcollar and tying up) would take at least 10 mins. Longer if the horse was awkward, or the feet were very muddy. So that would make it £9 an hour, not much at all. And I dont think its an 'unskilled' job- ask any joe public to pick even a very quiet horses foot up and theyd run a mile.
I think the charges are very fair, OP


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## be positive (26 July 2016)

WeeLassie said:



			I think PROPERLY picking out 4 hooves (including putting on headcollar and tying up) would take at least 10 mins. Longer if the horse was awkward, or the feet were very muddy. So that would make it £9 an hour, not much at all. And I dont think its an 'unskilled' job- ask any joe public to pick even a very quiet horses foot up and theyd run a mile.
I think the charges are very fair, OP
		
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It cannot take 2 minutes to pick out each foot, I would find it hard to take a minute to put on a headcollar and tie up, then another 30 seconds per foot to pick out properly, if the horse is awkward on day 1 it wouldn't be awkward for long if handled by a pro, a complete novice may take a bit longer but they should not be dealing with liveries that are paying for a professional job. 
I am not going to comment on livery charges as I routinely do extras without charging as I want to ensure the welfare of the horses in my yard and many of the charges are in my view petty, I prefer to have a slightly higher base rate and build in a bit of my time to do the odd rug change or bring in.


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## WeeLassie (26 July 2016)

I think you would have to allow 10 mins from start to finish, assuming you have to get headcollar and catch horse, to do it properly. especially if mud was hard packed. And its hard work on the back.  Its all the small jobs- mixing feeds, haying, picking out feet, washing legs, that all add up to time a YO may not have. 
Yes, you could charge more and include exras for nothing, but this isnt really fair, as some liveries might want lots of jobs done, others mightnt want any.


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## Neversaydie (26 July 2016)

This always seems to be a contentious issue on all forums. AppleCart you are right to be looking for a livery that suits yourself. I have to admit I'm the same. The horse is on a budget, I can afford more but I choose not to spend more as it would mean I couldn't save as much for anything else each month. 

I know England isn't the same as up here in Scotland. More competition for livery spaces and YOs have less land and more horses over all. 

Everyone's assessment of what livery consists of and their understanding of that term is always going to vary. I prefer DIY as I have a bit of OCD about how I keep my horses so I wouldn't go to a part or full livery only yard. Extras are nice but not a necessity for me.


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## SpringArising (26 July 2016)

WeeLassie said:



			I think PROPERLY picking out 4 hooves (including putting on headcollar and tying up) would take at least 10 mins. Longer if the horse was awkward, or the feet were very muddy
		
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Ten minutes? What are you doing down there WeeLassie, mining for gold? :eek3:


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## WeeLassie (26 July 2016)

well, spring arising, Im not saying it takes 10 mins to pick out 4 feet, only that you should be paid for about 10 mins- that includes time catching and tying up horse, getting skip,  picking out feet PROPERLY, a lot of people dont bother with frog cleft and sulcii, taking horse  back to stable/field and putting gear away. I do not think £1.50 is too much to charge.
And I dont think its an unskilled job, a groom/YO has to know the ropes or they would soon get injured!


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## Leo Walker (26 July 2016)

I never understand why people expect livery and services to be cheap. I'm from Yorkshire and am incredibly tight but my default is I expect anything to do with horses to be expensive! 

I'm currently on a DIY yard where the YO feeds my horse first thing and lets him out into his "grass paddock" by sliding the slip rails back. She doesnt charge me for that but the school is unusable, we have no secure storage, no electricity and very, very limited grazing. It wouldn't suit the majority of people but as someone with a fat cob who is fine on less than a half of the 1/3 of an acre hes allowed it works out ok for us. I am under no illusions that while the livery is cheap and the limited assistance is free, that I am paying through the nose in other ways. I have to fund ad lib high fibre haylage as he has NO grass at all. I've also spent more than £300 on electric fencing as there isnt any internal or really any external fencing. I also spent £200 on a shed for storage of things that didnt need to be secure. 

We wont be there come winter as a 500kg horse on a limited area like he has would be horrific! And thats the reason she cant keep liveries. But I knew what I was getting into and I consider it very good value. Horses ARE expensive! And when you want them at a yard with a good quality school, good hacking and assistance when and if you decide you want it, then you blumming well should pay for the privilege!


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## Leo Walker (26 July 2016)

No one NEEDS a luxury "item" like a horse, its a conscious choice, something you want as opposed to something you need! So if you cant afford it or dont want to afford it where you want to keep it, then accept its not for you and sell up  You CAN keep horses for pennies if you put them on a cheap yard and turn a blind eye to things like feet etc. Where I am from lots of people do that and are very happy. Its not for me though, so I weigh up the options and pick the one that suits my horse best, not the one that suits my budget best


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## chocolategirl (26 July 2016)

I havnt read all the posts on here about this topic, but I'm a YO and my yard is primarily DIY, but for the convenience of my clients, I offer all services apart from riding. I think my charges are very reasonable all things considered, as built into my prices are my care, custody and control insurance, my many years of experience in handling all types of horses, and let's not forget the CONVENIENCE factor. I make NO money at all from livery, mine is made via the sale of hay, straw and the services I provide. If I had to rely only on the income from livery (rent) I would have had to close within a year of opening. I wish you the best of luck OP finding a yard that ticks all your boxes they will be like gold dust I can assure you :-(


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## Illusion100 (26 July 2016)

be positive said:



			It cannot take 2 minutes to pick out each foot, I would find it hard to take a minute to put on a headcollar and tie up, then another 30 seconds per foot to pick out properly, if the horse is awkward on day 1 it wouldn't be awkward for long if handled by a pro, a complete novice may take a bit longer but they should not be dealing with liveries that are paying for a professional job. 
I am not going to comment on livery charges as I routinely do extras without charging as I want to ensure the welfare of the horses in my yard and many of the charges are in my view petty, I prefer to have a slightly higher base rate and build in a bit of my time to do the odd rug change or bring in.
		
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I'm with you, agree completely. You're my ideal sort of YO.  Luckily I have one like you now, she's great.


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## Illusion100 (26 July 2016)

SpringArising said:



			Ten minutes? What are you doing down there WeeLassie, mining for gold? :eek3:
		
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LOL! Good one!


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## rachk89 (27 July 2016)

Honestly applecart if you think those prices are expensive it's not bad in comparison to what a livery yard near me wanted to charge me if i put my horse there. £400 a month for FULL livery. Ok not bad that is slightly higher than average for the area but it's a posh place.

But wait... I said full livery right? You would expect that to include mucking out, turn in turn out, rug change etc. No no no. They wanted an extra £7 a day for the privilege of doing that.

I could have understood if they were maybe just confused but diy livery existed there too and was £200 a month. But i am actually thinking maybe that didn't even include a stable... i have no idea as i left soon after hearing the prices. For a posh place too the stables were pretty disgusting looked like they hadn't been properly cleaned in a while and all of the fencing was just the white tape electric fencing. I knew my horse being the housing he is would escape that with little trouble so it's wasn't worth the price and potential problems.

Plus it was made clear that anytime they wanted your stable for an event going on they would be using it and your horse would be out over night. Might not have been an issue if they kept the place clean but what if someone uses my stable and the horse has strangles? I doubt they clean the stable after so that's my horse screwed.

So basically there are worse places.. you just don't go to them. I found a much nicer cleaner place and it's closer to home. And the horse can't escape from the fields as it's proper fencing.


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## applecart14 (27 July 2016)

rachk89 said:



			Honestly applecart if you think those prices are expensive it's not bad in comparison to what a livery yard near me wanted to charge me if i put my horse there. £400 a month for FULL livery. Ok not bad that is slightly higher than average for the area but it's a posh place.

But wait... I said full livery right? You would expect that to include mucking out, turn in turn out, rug change etc. No no no. They wanted an extra £7 a day for the privilege of doing that.

I could have understood if they were maybe just confused but diy livery existed there too and was £200 a month. But i am actually thinking maybe that didn't even include a stable... i have no idea as i left soon after hearing the prices. For a posh place too the stables were pretty disgusting looked like they hadn't been properly cleaned in a while and all of the fencing was just the white tape electric fencing. I knew my horse being the housing he is would escape that with little trouble so it's wasn't worth the price and potential problems.

Plus it was made clear that anytime they wanted your stable for an event going on they would be using it and your horse would be out over night. Might not have been an issue if they kept the place clean but what if someone uses my stable and the horse has strangles? I doubt they clean the stable after so that's my horse screwed.

So basically there are worse places.. you just don't go to them. I found a much nicer cleaner place and it's closer to home. And the horse can't escape from the fields as it's proper fencing.
		
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Yes on the one side of us she charges £160 per week and the other side charges £220 (top sj).  I was lucky enough to be on that £220 per week yard when the SJ was living abroad and he'd rented it out to a woman who let me stay on there for £65 per week, had to supply own hay and bedding and horse hardly ever went out in the paddock if there was a whiff of rain in the air and used to be put on the walker for two hours a day I later found out!  However lovely indoor and outdoor school and derby field.  Wasn't happy at the turnout so we sort of compromised and I think he went out three days a week for a while, but it was very weather dependent.  She was a compulsive liar to boot and would tell me my horse had gone out to my face but when I questioned the groom he denied that he had saying "too wet, too wet"!  Nightmare.  Then one day she said she wanted my stable for full livery and hinted she wasn't making enough from me.  Think she thought I would pay more to stay.  Don't think she anticipated how quickly I would leave but I was off like a shot within two weeks.  Six months later the stable was still empty!  I moved next door which is where I am now and loving it!


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## stormox (27 July 2016)

I must say that I get rather annoyed when people suggest YOs should work for peanuts.  I have run yards, though as a manager rather than an owner. It is not unskilled labour as a previous poster suggested. I trained and did exams just like any professional. The hours are long, the work hard. It is a great responsibility looking after other peoples precious animal. We are expected to be vets, first aiders, managers, trainers, turnout experts, agony aunts, people pacifiers, child minders etc. Expenses are high- insurance, feed etc. But we do it because of our love of horses.
A solicitor can charge £80 an hour, the lowest wages for untrained people with no responsibility is nearly £9 an hour. A poster above suggested that £18 an hour (at £1.50 to pick out feet) is way too much to be paid. I dont think so, although I dont know  any yard owners who actually get that much.


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## applecart14 (27 July 2016)

stormox said:



			I must say that I get rather annoyed when people suggest YOs should work for peanuts. .
		
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  I never said that for one minute.......
I know you work hard if you run a yard, and you often don't earn that much when you take into account rent for the yard, lighting, water, maintenance of fields/arena, etc, etc.  I wouldn't do it unless it was a very big yard and I had a lot of money to plough into it (like if I won the lottery or something!)


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## AdorableAlice (27 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			I never said that for one minute.......
I know you work hard if you run a yard, and you often don't earn that much when you take into account rent for the yard, lighting, water, maintenance of fields/arena, etc, etc.  I wouldn't do it unless it was a very big yard and I had a lot of money to plough into it (like if I won the lottery or something!)  

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Irony at it's best.


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## 9tails (27 July 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Irony at it's best.
		
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LOL!


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## indie1282 (27 July 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Irony at it's best.
		
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Lol!


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## LouisCat (27 July 2016)

A genuine question as my horses are not on a livery yard.
I have 2 horses that spend 24/7 in a field together. If you ride one and leave the other they will shout for a bit and then go back to eating and then they might call a bit more but then they are absolutely fine by the time you get back from riding. Would this constitute a horse that can't be left out by itself in a field when you are on livery?


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## ester (27 July 2016)

No? a horse that cannot be left on it's own runs itself ragged and ends up a drippy stressy mess


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## 9tails (27 July 2016)

LouisCat - it's more like when there are 20 horses in surrounding fields and suddenly there are none because all the others have been taken in, that's when a horse can get really anxious and hurtle around the field.  They get used to having all that protection around them.


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## stormox (1 August 2016)

Applecart14 (and others!) I hope you have read Disillusioned's post which puts the YOs side of the story.....


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## popsdosh (1 August 2016)

ester said:



			No? a horse that cannot be left on it's own runs itself ragged and ends up a drippy stressy mess 

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Mostly due to stressy owners who will not leave them to settle again. Its just basic management I never had any horse you could not leave on its own. There is no need for it.


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## ester (1 August 2016)

How long do you propose you leave them? 

Bearing in mind mine is 23 and it isn't going to do him any good to run himself ragged at that age. I am curious, I have left him for fair periods of time given how long adrenaline takes to be reabsorbed by the system and never saw an improvement and when they were at home it was easy to observe from inside so they didn't know you were there, though arguably he was always much better if there was someone about on the yard.


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## conniegirl (1 August 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Mostly due to stressy owners who will not leave them to settle again. Its just basic management I never had any horse you could not leave on its own. There is no need for it.
		
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Curious how long you would have left mine? He was left for 3 hours alone as I was at work and unaware that he was on his own. I am not a stress owner and will often leave them and see if they settle. In this case It resulted in an extremely stressed, white with sweat horse who kept break out sweating for hours afterward, coliced later that evening and from that day forwards panicked when you started bringing anything in and started coming through fencing if left for even a minute.

Leaving him was nothing short of cruel and certainly leaving him for 3 hours on his own was cruel and resulted in long term psychological damage to what had been a well adjusted little horse


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