# Quivering/flapping lower lip - meaning



## Wagtail (23 January 2016)

I'm sure we've all seen this at some time or another when horses are being worked. I have my own view on what it means but then I read somewhere on here or elsewhere about it meaning something different to what I thought. I won't say what as I don't want to influence the poll. But what do you think?


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## fattylumpkin (23 January 2016)

I've seen horses do it in a few different situations, but when it's done to an -extreme- level so their lower lip is flapping all over the horses have most definitely not been happy!


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## View (23 January 2016)

Hmm, see there is one horse I know well whose lower lip flaps only when he is being groomed and I am right on the itchy spot.  In this case, definitely a happy horse


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## Pearlsasinger (23 January 2016)

When my cob flaps her lower lip, it simply means that she has little to no control over it!  So I haven't voted, as there isn't that option!  Sorry, OP!


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## MotherOfChickens (23 January 2016)

I would want to know what other signs are being exhibited-ears, tail, lips, nostrils. Do you mean flapping loosely or a more foal snapping type movement?


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## Amicus (23 January 2016)

The one I know seems to do it when he's bored.


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## MargotC (23 January 2016)

Interesting. Both my horses would do this when given a good scratch in the right spot whilst grooming. They'd both move after the hand to make me keep going!

Never had one do it whilst ridden or working but I would be a little surprised if it meant the same thing.


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## Wagtail (23 January 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I would want to know what other signs are being exhibited-ears, tail, lips, nostrils. Do you mean flapping loosely or a more foal snapping type movement?
		
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No, I mean when being ridden. A constant flap, flap flapping of the lower lip.


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## Nudibranch (23 January 2016)

The only one I know who does it is my TB, when under stress, e.g. separation anxiety.  The whole bottom lip comes away and flaps, along with head circling.  Cant see the poll on tablet to vote tho.


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## Enfys (23 January 2016)

Wagtail said:



			No, I mean when being ridden. A constant flap, flap flapping of the lower lip.
		
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My mare flaps according to the gait she is going, I think it really depends on the horse, I suspect part of E's flapping is stress, or remembered stress, as when she was on the circuit her training would have been quite intense and it takes effort to fino at the speed show horses are expected to work, so also concentration perhaps.  

Saying that, I think it is also impatience, she is extremely forward going and when I won't allow her to go faster then she flaps harder the more frustrated she gets, she genuinely seems to enjoy being out though, when she's ridden her ears are never back when she's on the move.


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## Equi (23 January 2016)

Depends on the situation. I have seen horses asleep do it, so clearly relaxed. I have seen horses with 10 bits in and heads strapped to their chests being kicked with spurs do it, clearly distressed.


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## Wagtail (23 January 2016)

Thanks to everyone who's responded so far. Really interesting!


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## criso (23 January 2016)

My tb doesn't do it ridden but on the ground when he is feeling anxious or insecure about something.


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## MargotC (23 January 2016)

I might be completely off here, but I wonder if some horses (regardless of cause) are more anatomically disposed towards a flapping lower lip. The reason I had this thought is that my boy (a Standardbred) had what I'd call a tight mouth, nothing really "loose" about it when closed. My mare, bless her, always did have a slightly hanging lower lip (but did not have an underbite). It was just very... flappy (and very suited to cuddles).


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## Dry Rot (23 January 2016)

I've said this before (and probably read it somewhere!), Nature is extremely economical with body language and some behaviours that are apparently identical can mean completely different things. Think intense laughing and crying in humans. Sometimes difficult to identify one from t'other and it will depends on the situation.


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## ElleSkywalker (23 January 2016)

One of mine flaps her lip when tired, schooling and hacking. She also sticks her tongue out


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## ihatework (24 January 2016)

I think it can mean all of the things you have listed, depending on the situation.

I have a ginger pocket rocket dressage mare who can hold tension, but when she really starts to relax and work through then I do sometimes get the lower lip flapping. My trainer once commented that normally he saw that as a sign of tension but with her it meant the opposite


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## Goldenstar (24 January 2016)

H flaps his lip when he's mildy worried and when he's working something out ,


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## Wagtail (24 January 2016)

Thanks, everyone. My old mare used to do it when my trainer got on her, but not with me. I am working with a horse at the minute who does it all the time ridden and is a horse that has had/has so many pain issues. They are supposed to be resolved, but I'm not so sure.


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## Irish gal (24 January 2016)

Apparently Cruising used to do this if he'd jumed a good round. And interestingly one of his cloned sons also does it when he's worked.


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## 1ST1 (24 January 2016)

In my case, flapping of the lips on the lunge and when ridden was one of the numerous signs that the Vet used to diagnose a neurological issue (Shivers).


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## little_critter (24 January 2016)

With my mare it means she is concentrating really hard....and could be on the verge of being stressed if I don't pick up on her emotions and reduce the pressure.


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## happyclappy (24 January 2016)

Most of mine have/do do this but not during wok, always while mutual grooming/being groomed, having scratches, and I assume it is from pleasure. I do think it also comes from other things such as concentration or stress.


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## DressageCob (25 January 2016)

My horse and a few others I know do the flappy lip thing when they are having a doze in their stable  My horse also smacks his lips (flicking up his bottom lip so it smacks against the top) during work because he is concentrating. It's just a little concentration tic. He doesn't do it when he's being naughty or not paying attention irrespective of tack etc. So it's just a concentration thing. It comes on at the same time as his ears go sideways


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## Annagain (25 January 2016)

Not quite the same but my old boy used to have a very loose flappy, twitchy lip when he was dozing. If you timed it right, you could drop an extra strong mint down into his gum. He could smell and taste it but couldn't reach it to pull it into his mouth to eat it. It was hilarious to watch.


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## Lucyad (25 January 2016)

Mine does it when he is gazing into the distance contemplating.  He enjoys a wee lookout, particularly if we are hacking past a good viewpoint - I suspect he is often looking for the hunt, or other horses. He also does it out hunting when we are stopped - looking over to hounds. He seems happy, alert and interested rather than stressed in any way.  I have often thought to video him, as you could do a voice-over - it looks like he is talking! maybe he could get a job as a film horse....


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## marotelle (25 January 2016)

I noticed that Valegro, did this the last time i saw him perform in that very Strange championship in Aachen. He looked and performed below par and looked at times quite anxious.
Compared to some of the other competitors, and the sad last sighting of the great Totilas I
guess he could be said to have performed quite well.Unless I am mistaken, he has been given
a well earned rest and I hope we shall see him  in a happier frame of mind in Rio.
I agree that some horses do this when curious or playfully,but in most cases I feel it shows stress.....


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## Wagtail (25 January 2016)

marotelle said:



			I noticed that Valegro, did this the last time i saw him perform in that very Strange championship in Aachen. He looked and performed below par and looked at times quite anxious.
Compared to some of the other competitors, and the sad last sighting of the great Totilas I
guess he could be said to have performed quite well.Unless I am mistaken, he has been given
a well earned rest and I hope we shall see him  in a happier frame of mind in Rio.
I agree that some horses do this when curious or playfully,but in most cases I feel it shows stress.....
		
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Interesting, thanks.

I do think that when a horse does it ridden, it's a stress/apprehensive thing. I guess though it depends on how well a person knows their horse as some may also do it when relaxed. The thing which prompted me to ask was the suggestion that it was an indicator of pain, and that the horse I am currently working with has historical pain issues.


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## ester (25 January 2016)

I'd generally see it as a self soothing behaviour.


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## applecart14 (25 January 2016)

I always used to think it was anxiety or excitement but I believe it can be pain related also.


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## Goldenstar (25 January 2016)

H never flaps his lip when working he does it out hunting when he's standing watching he's does not come across as apprehensive he loves hunting but he watches intently and flaps his lip .
In the stable / field he does it when he watches us doing things like rugging up for turnout or when he's tacked up waiting to come out his stable .
My groom also thinks he's learning to use it to get attention in the stable as we tend to go and give him a stroke when we see it ,he's got a huge floppy lip and it looks cute .
I Would say it likely a horse that does it ridden is showing stress but have know one mare where it was defiantly when she was through and most rhymic and in the grove with you she gently flapped her lip in rhythm .


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## Merrymoles (25 January 2016)

Mine does it quite extensively when he's stressed or wound up, so much so that his stable name reflects it, so I have voted stressed.

However, he also does it when presented with something new when he is having a good think about it but isn't showing any other sign of stress. For example, I re-introduced polework into his lunging last week and he is not the most careful or brave but he continued to be forward-going, ears pricked and moving nicely while working out what to do with his legs and having a good bottom lip flap. I repeated the same exercise two nights later and there was no flapping as by then he appeared to have "got his head round it".

He is a horse who needs time to consider things, despite being a very forward going sort, and the flapping gives me warning that his brain is overloading with whatever I have asked him to do and we therefore take it back a step or two or find some other way to make it easier for him to compute. This applies just as much out hacking as schooling. A flapping lip can mean "what the hell is that over there???" or "ooo my mate is leaving me". I am resigned to the fact that the lip flapping is his way of telling me he is not comfortable with something.

Changing bit or level of contact makes no difference whatsoever, it's completely how he feels about a situation.

ETA - would be interested to hear your views WT and what you have read - please PM me if you'd rather not comment on the thread itself.


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## MrsNorris (25 January 2016)

My cob does it when ridden bitless, but not when bitted. I always thought it was because he was even more relaxed without a bit (he seems totally laid back either way) but now I'm not so sure! He does it in all the types of bitless bridle which I've tried him in, but he goes very well in them and doesn't seem at all concerned.


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## criso (25 January 2016)

applecart14 said:



			I always used to think it was anxiety or excitement but I believe it can be pain related also.
		
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I think it can be linked, anxiety about pain  or it might not be actual pain but remembered or expected pain.  And then can it be left as a habit when the reason it started has gone.

In Goldenstar's hunting example, a horse that loves hunting could be anxious to get going so it's not anxiety in a bad way but anticipation.


In my horse that does it, he's a worrier and it's a very low level indicator. He's not really stressed or upset ... yet ... but there's something he's not 100% sure of and it could go either way.  He did it yesterday watching some walkers on the footpath when I'd been lunging.  They weren't a major threat in his eyes but something to be kept an eye on.  It was combined with an a very alert stance and looks very different to the sort of droopy lipped, relaxed behaviour that some people have described when grooming.


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## Cobbytype (25 January 2016)

The stallion in the competition yard, where my horse was liveried for a time, used to do it when my horse went to say hello to him. It was definitely excitement that made his lips quiver; he led quite a solitary life at home due to his temperament and value, so loved his little play time with my boy and the two of them got along really well.

My first horse used to do it when schooled - he looked like he was muttering under his breath, and as he hated schooling, I guess that's probably what he was doing. A few changes of bit and the dentist made no difference, so we concluded it was just his way of 'cussing'.


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## Pippity (25 January 2016)

I've dealt with horses that let the lower lip droop when they're thoroughly relaxed, but that's different to the 'flappy' thing. My current share horse does the flappy lower lip when he's a little worried about something and would appreciate a bit of reassurance. (A big hug usually does it. He's a soppy thing!)


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## Pigeon (25 January 2016)

Yes one of ours has a droopy lip, it doesn't seem to be affected by his mood, so I think he just has no control over it, though it does give him a relaxed appearance. 

The other would wiggle his nose around like a tapir when excited.


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## applecart14 (26 January 2016)

My horse flaps his bottom lip onto his lap strap to make his curb chain rattle when he has his pelham on.  He thinks the noise is interesting and likes to announce to everyone that he hates his curb chain being on, even though its fairly loose at the time!


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## Dry Rot (26 January 2016)

One of my yard helpers used to tickle a yearling on the chest and he'd go into ecstacies and push his neck out skywards. I am pretty sure he would also 'lip quiver' at the same time!


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## Jericho (26 January 2016)

My mare did it when mildly anxious or apprehensive, both ridden and not. If she was out grazing and saw something in the distance that worries her it starts or if she is scared of something out hacking it goes or if she is jumping or schooling quite hard. Doesn't do when under extreme stress or when she is at rest


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## Akkalia1 (26 January 2016)

This is very interesting to me as I tried a horse for sale at the weekend whose bottom lip constantly flaps quite vigorously while being ridden. This was very much a project mare who has many issues to consider and I now am wondering if the lip thing was an indicator of pain/stress. I hadn't considered that to be a signal of anything, just a funny habit, but having read this I suspect it could be a sign of a deep-seated problem.


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## Wagtail (26 January 2016)

I think it's definitely when a horse is worried or apprehensive about something. Although it doesn't necessarily mean there is a problem such as pain, but with some horses just having a more demanding rider on board is enough to set it off. Sometimes, as in the stopping whilst hunting example, or gazing at things in the distance, it may also be nervous anticipation. I think the grooming examples given are a different thing entirely to what I was meaning in the poll. I am referring to a horse being worked. I know many horses that lip quiver when being scratched in their sweet spots or have a droopy lower lip when dosing. But this is different to what I was referring to.


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## Hexx (26 January 2016)

I used to ride a horse who's whole bottom jaw used to flap and his teeth clicked together.  This only happened when he was working in an outline, on a relaxed rein, with a flowing gait - his ears would flop to either side and his jaw relax and the teeth would click.  He would be so soft and relaxed, it was like riding a floating horse - it was the way you knew that he was working beautifully.


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## Wagtail (26 January 2016)

Hexx said:



			I used to ride a horse who's whole bottom jaw used to flap and his teeth clicked together.  This only happened when he was working in an outline, on a relaxed rein, with a flowing gait - his ears would flop to either side and his jaw relax and the teeth would click.  He would be so soft and relaxed, it was like riding a floating horse - it was the way you knew that he was working beautifully.
		
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Yes, that's a relaxed jaw. What we all strive to achieve. But the bottom lip can flap with a fixed jaw, like if you clench your teeth together then quiver your chin and bottom lip. That is what I am meaning.


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## MargotC (26 January 2016)

I would love to see a video of a horse doing it during working, actually. I think it would be useful.


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## Wagtail (26 January 2016)

MargotC said:



			I would love to see a video of a horse doing it during working, actually. I think it would be useful.
		
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I'll have to see if I have any. Probably won't have one that is clear enough as shot from too far away, but will look.


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## MargotC (26 January 2016)

Thanks!  If you don't, perhaps someone else on the forum has one? In fact examples of all the kinds of lip flapping mentioned in the thread would be fun to see next to each other. It sounds similar but I suspect there are subtle differences and I for one would love to be able to tell them apart, unless the only real way to tell them apart is context eg. a horse in pain/a horse being scratched/a horse being asked to do something unfamiliar.

ETA. A question for those with horses in pain who exhibit this behaviour. How much pain (estimated) is the horse in? Does it happen with low-key pain or with more severe, constant pain?


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## marotelle (26 January 2016)

Perhaps you could get hold of  Valegro's  kur in last year's Aachen's championship;for me it was the most telling one.
He always performed with a happy Outlook, well infront of the leg;on that last kur ,although correct, he lacked that special sparkle...And yes through out he had a quivering/flapping lower lip.


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## Enfys (27 January 2016)

MargotC said:



			I would love to see a video of a horse doing it during working, actually. I think it would be useful.
		
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I found this on you tube. This is my mare, taken 6 years ago when she was on the show circuit in Florida, you can clearly see her lip snapping, she still does this, many pasos do when they are gaiting. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOFpViPg3pU


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## Cobbytype (27 January 2016)

Enfys said:



			I found this on you tube. This is my mare, taken 6 years ago when she was on the show circuit in Florida, you can clearly see her lip snapping, she still does this, many pasos do when they are gaiting. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOFpViPg3pU

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Oh bless her, it looks like she's counting her little strides.


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## Enfys (27 January 2016)

Cobbytype said:



			Oh bless her, it looks like she's counting her little strides.
		
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She is still exactly like that 6 years on, they are little strides, she is only 13.1h on tiptoes  

She is getting tired in that video clip, I can tell, her back legs are moving more slowly. 

Legs and lips snapping faster in this one. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7UOFDSxqo0


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## Wagtail (27 January 2016)

Enfys said:



			I found this on you tube. This is my mare, taken 6 years ago when she was on the show circuit in Florida, you can clearly see her lip snapping, she still does this, many pasos do when they are gaiting. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOFpViPg3pU

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Yes, that's the kind of thing I mean. Looking at this video, she looks more as though she is really concentrating, or anxious to please/get it right.


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## Bojingles (27 January 2016)

My cob does it - I'll get a clip of it. She does it in more than situation. The main one is when she's slightly worried, eg a new hacking route or a new rider, or if she she's something a bit scary. She also does it when she's concentrating in the school. I don't worry about it to be honest as she so clearly loves her work. She has other little quirks as well


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## DressageCob (27 January 2016)

I don't have any videos but this photo shows what I mean. Relaxed jaw, little concentration face, happy pony


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## chahala (27 January 2016)

My endurance arab who was ridden bitless used to do this competing. It  did not so much flap as move around like a Jim Henson puppet giving a running commentary. I have voted that he was concentrating but could equally say he was a bit stressed ( he liked to be in front )or perhaps excited and could be connected to ADRENELIN ( ?) but I do not think he was in pain. If I ever rode him in a bit the tongue would come out and roll around- he did not really like bits. . He would particularly do it if the course got a bit technical and he needed to concentrate on where he was putting his feet. He did not do it in a normal hacking situation.


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## criso (27 January 2016)

I was carrying my  phone around camera at the ready today to try and film Tigger but of course there were no suspicious looking walkers on the footpath or incoming wildfowl on the pond which usually triggers it.


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## fburton (28 January 2016)

Can the lower lip flap if the facial muscles esp. around the muzzle are tensed? It seems a unlikely to me.

Can a horse be stressed and have relaxed facial muscles? Possibly, but I am a little doubtful.

Answer those two questions and you will know if a flapping lip and stress are compatible at least.


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## Wagtail (28 January 2016)

fburton said:



			Can the lower lip flap if the facial muscles esp. around the muzzle are tensed? It seems a unlikely to me.

Can a horse be stressed and have relaxed facial muscles? Possibly, but I am a little doubtful.

Answer those two questions and you will know if a flapping lip and stress are compatible at least.
		
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It is possible to clench you teeth/hold your face tense and quiver your lower lip/chin. I think you are mistaking the droopy flapping lip of a relaxed horse with what I am referring to. In my OP I am referring to a completely different type of lip quiver where the chin remains tight (and is firm as it is pointy). It is not droopy or relaxed at all. Often accompanied by other tension in the face.


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## fburton (28 January 2016)

Wagtail said:



			It is possible to clench you teeth/hold your face tense and quiver your lower lip/chin. I think you are mistaking the droopy flapping lip of a relaxed horse with what I am referring to. In my OP I am referring to a completely different type of lip quiver where the chin remains tight (and is firm as it is pointy). It is not droopy or relaxed at all. Often accompanied by other tension in the face.
		
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Fair enough! What I had in mind was different. Maybe that's why some people voted for "relaxed and happy".

It would be great if you (or someone) could find and post a video example.


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## Wagtail (28 January 2016)

fburton said:



			Fair enough! What I had in mind was different. Maybe that's why some people voted for "relaxed and happy".

It would be great if you (or someone) could find and post a video example.
		
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When I posted it I assumed everyone would know what I meant, but maybe it's much rarer than I thought. I guess in reality, I can only remember two horses doing it (both mares) in my lifetime with horses. Or at least I hadn't noticed it in others. But the droopy lip thing when a horse is relaxed is very common. I can't see it on any of my videos of the horse I am currently working with, but my videos are shot on a camera set up outside the arena, so at a fixed distance and they are not HD. I know she is doing it in one of the lunging videos but it is too grainy for people to see. If I get a chance when someone else is working her I will try to zoom in on her mouth.


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## conniegirl (28 January 2016)

my lad flaps his bottom lip when bored. He will stand in a line up half asleep flapping his bottom lip. 
He will also to it in a stable if he is bored! I have a video of him catching his bottom lip on the weave grill over and over to make a noise (very similar to a child using a finger to flap thier bottom lip), he has his ears forwards and looked totaly relaxed the entire time!
He doesnt do it often but it causes great hilarity when he does! 
he is a very intelligent horse who likes to entertain himself! he recently learnt how to untie his rope and then if you are not looking he will go and let everyone else out of thier stables (including the goats) and stand back and watch the chaos! 
He has to have 2 bolts on his door rather than a bolt and a kick bolt as he learnt how to kick the bottom of the door in just the right place to make the kickbolt jump and then he learnt that if he does it after undoing the top bolt and pushes just at the right time he can open the door!


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## fburton (28 January 2016)

How can you tell the difference between a horse that is bored and one that is simply relaxed?


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## MargotC (28 January 2016)

That's really interesting, Enfys. Thanks for sharing (she's beautiful)!

Looking at those videos I'm thinking it looks like a combination of concentration and an "anxiety to get it right" but a positive one, not a worried one as such. My mind wouldn't jump to pain at all there. Of course if you know a horse is in pain and doing it perhaps you'd (rightly) be looking at it differently?

I originally voted for the worried/stressed option as that was what made (and makes) sense to me, having never encountered this exact flapping myself. There is a not so subtle difference between concentration and stress but maybe they are likely to be expressed in a similar fashion and you have to look at the simultaneous behaviour and body language to determine which it is.

Perhaps, if a horse is also showing other signs of pain and distress in their face (I am fairly sure I read an article detailing this a good while back... maybe someone knows which one? About horses having a pinched/distinct expression when in pain?) along with the flapping then it is more likely to be an expression of pain?

This is why I love the HHO forum though. People always, always have experiences to share. The thing with horses is there is so much going on or that can potentially happen, and whilst you can read up on a lot of it chances are you need to encounter something yourself to fully understand and recognise it.


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## conniegirl (28 January 2016)

fburton said:



			How can you tell the difference between a horse that is bored and one that is simply relaxed?
		
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With mine it is quite easy, if he is relaxed he tends to be asleep, quiet and cuddly.
If he is bored he is normaly causing chaos or finding ways to entertain himself


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## criso (28 January 2016)

MargotC said:



			Looking at those videos I'm thinking it looks like a combination of concentration and an "anxiety to get it right" but a positive one, not a worried one as such.
		
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I knew another horse other than mine that did this and I used to think if it as his "am I doing it right mum?" tic.    He was a bit of a worrier too.


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## MargotC (28 January 2016)

criso said:



			I knew another horse other than mine that did this and I used to think if it as his "am I doing it right mum?" tic.    He was a bit of a worrier too.
		
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I love the way you put that.

I sometimes have to make sure I keep myself from applying too much of an anthropomorphic reasoning with my pets but with some horses it is so clear that they want to do what is being asked of them and they are pleased when they manage to.


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## Juleme (7 July 2020)

Irish gal said:



			Apparently Cruising used to do this if he'd jumed a good round. And interestingly one of his cloned sons also does it when he's worked.
		
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This is very interesting to know as I’ve just ( only 12 days ago ) boughtvan Irish sports horse Byblos cruising and she does it all the time she’s being ridden . She’s not a stressy type in the ground or in her stable . Checked all tack and changed the bit 3 times even tried a hackamore but still does it ?


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## Bojingles (7 July 2020)

Normally anxiety


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## Mrs. Jingle (7 July 2020)

The bay mare in my avatar has done it constantly when ridden for the 10 plus years I have owned her.  Even with ears forward and happily moving along in a relaxed way of going that bottom lip flaps away and speeds up the flapping to correspond with the increased speed lol! 

It used to worry me slightly when I first had her but my vet assured me he could not find any pain issue to account for it and probably just something she had always done when working. Interestingly we do not have a record of her breeding - but we have always thought some sort of ID X - vet also mentioned some with Cruising in their breeding seem to have this habit.  I quite like to think my plain old mare might just have a bit of Cruising way back in her lines! 

I tried all sorts of bits, bitless and even just riding her bare back in a head collar she still does it.  She is now retired so very rarely see her do it now. Although I did walk out to the field with the other fellahs bridle once and she started flapping her lip as I advanced towards them both - anticipation? Excitement? Dread?  Who knows?


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