# German shepherds and sloping backs



## RubysGold (5 July 2010)

Before I say anything else I just want to say that I'm not trying to spark up an argument. I honestly want to know what people have to say. (Especially people like CaveCanem that own GSD's)

I walk a GSD with a lovely straight back. But you see so many with sloping backs and that can't be good for them can it?! They all seem to get bad back ends so young, and its hardly a surprise.

So, please don't jump on me you guys (Im delicate), just want to know whether I'm right or being ignorant?


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## blackcob (5 July 2010)

*hands RubysGold a flameproof suit*


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## RubysGold (5 July 2010)

Oh, is it that bad? 
should I hide now?


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## Booboos (5 July 2010)

I am not an expert, so it will be interesting to see what others say, but when we were looking for a GSD pup we found that many parents and pups had extremely sloping backs. OH and I didn't like this, either aesthetically because the dogs looked like they would be crippled, or for health reasons because we were worried that they would be crippled, so we waiting until we found a litter with different conformation.


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## ridebumble (5 July 2010)

I have a fair bit to say on this but alas its home time for me .... the major problem I have with English type breeders (level topline) is that they don't health score , breed from lines with epilepsy ...  I have level working gsd lines and germanic lines with some slope (not extreme) and I wouldn't touch an old english bred GSD with the proverbial barge pole.

Read this to see what a representaive of the alsation'ists gets upto

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/forum/29425.html


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## MurphysMinder (5 July 2010)

Haven't clicked on link but can imagine which one it is!
Well my dogs are all of german lines, when posed in stance they do have a slope from withers to tail, but relaxed their backs are level, I hope those who met them at the AAD meet up would agree.
Very extreme slopes and angulation of the hindquarter are wrong, although some people still breed for this, the american dogs are probably the worst I would say.
Yes GSD can have problems with their hips, which responsible breeders are trying hard to reduce, ime though a lot of dogs who go off their hind legs in old age are suffering from CDRM rather than hip problems, and I don't believe that is anything to do with the degree of slope of their topline.
I am sure CC will answer your question far more eloquently, I am in a bit of a dash now but will try and elaborate a bit more if the meister hasn't been on.


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

Are you talking about seeing pictures of dogs, or seeing dogs in the flesh? Because I have to say, and maybe I am lucky, that I see very few of the 'sloping back(line)s' that people talk about, in the flesh.
The back and the backline are not the same thing, by the way, in a correct dog the back is straight and then there is a gradual slope to the croup.

As for pictures?


These are pictures of the same dog









































These are pictures of the same dog




































Does that change anyone's mind?

"They all seem to get bad back ends so young"
Sorry RG but that is a load of bull and a huge generalisation. Our last five dogs, a mix of old English, old German herding and new German showlines, never had a day's bother with their hind end and when they finally got to old age they succumbed to CDRM which is a condition which actually starts in the brain.

You cannot tell whether a dog has HD unless the hips have been x-rayed and scored.

I actually know very few people who have had dogs with crippling HD. I do know one couple who had a bitch scored 43:43 and they had no idea - she was a champion famed for her movement! They of course, did not breed from her.

There are a lot of dogs with loose back ends which are not exercised properly, plain and simple. 

If you don't want a GSD with HD, pick a pup from lines known to throw good hips and where all the ancestors have low scores. And don't let your dog throw itself around too much before the age of 12 months also helps.

Yes there are problems in the breed and I would actually prefer to see the spines x-rayed in breeding stock as well as the hips and elbows, which is the practise in Scandinavian countries.
The issue of hocks is being dealt with as well as per the recommendations from the SV in Germany.

We story for you:
A very well respected vet at my practise told me my dog had bad hips because he seemed uncomfortable on the table when being held down for a scan. She rotated his legs and said he would probably only be sound until the age of five.
I heard her tell another person leaving the surgery £450 lighter with his GSD that ALL GSDs get HD eventually.
When my dog started to show lameness in his right hind, I thought it was curtains.
Took him to my normal vet, who is much sought after among GSD owners here, and he x-rayed the hips.
They're as good as he, myself, or my mother who was a breeder and judge, has ever seen.
Yes, he had hurt his back, when jumping off the top of an A-frame and it cleared up with anti-biotics - if another dog had fallen from that height, they would have broken both their legs.

But if a vet is telling their clients such untruths, what chance do the general public have?!

There are straightback working-line dogs with awful front assembly and epilepsy carriers and the problems are not confined to one type - we need to all work together to produce fit, functional dogs of correct construction and above all, good character.


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

ARGH!!! Not that f*cking Lornaville thread!!!!!

And that should say his back cleared up with anti-inflammatories, not anti-biotics. Sorry some of those pictures are huge.


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## Booboos (5 July 2010)

Having read the other replies, I realise this is a lot more complicated than I thought!

I didn't mean to suggest that Dizzy is straight through the back, that would also look weird to me! He does slope but nothing like the really exaggerated (to my eyes) slopping backs we saw in some litters. When we were looking for him we didn't really know anything about lines, but we knew about hip scores, haemophilia and wanted a good temperament.

(His parents' hip scores are 4:5=9 and 8:6=14, both of which are below the breed average of 19 so from what I read that is good and there are negative haemophilia tests all over his pedigree. His dad is Amondahl Nexus and his mum is Velinde Immogen - what is he? German, British or Other?)


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

Dizzy would be a cross of German and English lines, which has always produced superb dogs - just have to watch some of the older English lines for the reasons mentioned.

Was it VelindRe, if so then they used to breed alongside MM's mum 
Saw Nexus many, many times in the flesh and he was a fabulous dog.
I wouldn't breed above a total score of 10, 12 at a pinch but that's just me and I don't breed


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## Booboos (5 July 2010)

Oh yes, sorry it does say Velindre Immogen at Nixtev.

That's quite worrying about the hip scores as 14 is quite high then! He's 7 now and not shown any problems yet, which is good I suppose, but no guarrantee. Fingers crossed for Dizzy's hips!


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

No, no, not at all, please don't panic, it's below the average, I'm just a picky cow!!! I'm sure he'll be fine 
Even dogs with clear hips don't automatically throw good hips themselves, it's just a matter of selecting breeding animals carefully.


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## Booboos (5 July 2010)

After Jakey's elbow dysplasia, which the ortho vet said was really, really rare in a small breed, I could do without any more dysplasias!!! Then again maybe we used all our luck with Betty's heart which should have killed her in a few months but is still going strong more than 4 years later! 

Anyone like to rehome my dogs? You'll have a great relationship with your vet!


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

What...you mean...you have a healthy, non crippled GSD????
Had no idea he was seven, he looks much, much younger from pics


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## Booboos (5 July 2010)

So far he is the healthiest by far!!!

Everyone thinks he looks like a young bitch!


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

Just gone on the website, nice to see his full brother has his CDex and UDex qualifications and is hauling himself over a scale and hurling himself over a spread jump, the poor thing, I don't know how he is managing it 

Here is Ch. Nexus (although I am sure you have seen him before!)






I do remember a hoo hah when a judge described him as having an 'elegant' neck or head or something and some of the purists were complaining because 'elegant' wasn't in the breed standard 
He was a very athletic male.


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## kirstyhen (5 July 2010)

I love the pics of Bella, CC. I think they show so clearly how different you can make their backs look!
I reckon I could get Otto stacked with a slopey back and his is more level than a bookcase, might try it  He wants to fit in with the cool GSD gang!

You forgot the BMW/Merc comparison though


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

Hehehehe - sorry Hen, will let you explain that one, this time 

And while I'm in Photobucket!
I know you like this one Hen





Some pics from shows if anyone cares....
Some youngsters, unstacked





This is a working male, SchIII, who has been V (excellent) rated in Germany for construction





This wee female is working lines and is SchIII but was very highly rated in young female classes as a puppy when she had show-going owners. 






(Added to show, the right judges are promoting the right types of dog in a lot of cases. In the events pictured above, only dogs with good hip and elbow scores and working qualifications can compete at the top tier. Without, you can still win prizes, but you can only go so far. A good system, IMO!)


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## EAST KENT (5 July 2010)

So what do you think of the GSD  BOB at Cruft`s??  When I saw it it was walking so low at the back it must have bruised it`s testicles! Comments??


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## numptynoelle (5 July 2010)

RubysGold said:



			Before I say anything else I just want to say that I'm not trying to spark up an argument. I honestly want to know what people have to say. (Especially people like CaveCanem that own GSD's)

I walk a GSD with a lovely straight back. But you see so many with sloping backs and that can't be good for them can it?! They all seem to get bad back ends so young, and its hardly a surprise.

So, please don't jump on me you guys (Im delicate), just want to know whether I'm right or being ignorant?
		
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This is meant in the nicest way (honest!) but yes, you are being a bit ignorant. It's ok, I'm ignorant about GSDs too, but I've learnt such a lot from reading previous GSD threads - start by looking at all those fabby pics CC has posted. Generalisations can be (and indeed, are) made about any breed but some decent research goes a long way.


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

Lagos? His hips and elbows are good.
He has his SchIII (So, does the full routine, the same as what that last bitch is doing, plus tracking, plus obedience) and his AD (20km endurance test off a bike) so I have every reason to believe he is sound - he just isn't great, as are very few German Shepherds, at moving on a slippy green carpet. As Hen mentioned, like a BMW  the GSD's movement, the low, ground-covering gait, is propelled forwards from the rear and a lot of dogs find it hard to get a grip on carpet, especially as every other show or trial or training they undergo takes place on grass.

However I have not seen him in the flesh so cannot say definitively what I think about him.

Here he is:






If I was being critical I would say that he should have been better prepared for a show like that. SchIII should produce a dog that can gait at heel, on television it looked as if he was being held back and of course that will make the dog dip behind.

Here is Loretta from Shotaan, who was BoB and took second in the group at Crufts a few years ago. She had obviously been well prepared and was superbly handled and she was foot perfect, a beautiful female, I had tears in my eyes watching her.
http://www.shotaan.co.uk/loretta.html
Hopefully you can see what I mean about the movement!


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## RubysGold (5 July 2010)

I'm sorry, don't hate me. But all those photos show exactly what I was talking about.

I don't know anyone with GSD's (except the one I walk), so I know nothing of the breed. I think I'm used to my straight backed dogs because collies aren't supposed to have sloping backs. 
Seeing CC's photos did show that some photos can show it differently to others though. 
CC, I still love your 2, they're lovely.


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## RubysGold (5 July 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			"They all seem to get bad back ends so young"
Sorry RG but that is a load of bull and a huge generalisation. Our last five dogs, a mix of old English, old German herding and new German showlines, never had a day's bother with their hind end and when they finally got to old age they succumbed to CDRM which is a condition which actually starts in the brain.
		
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Sorry, I was just going what I've heard. I think anyone who has no experience in GSD's will think the same thing. What is CDRM


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

And just while I'm spamming 

Javir is tipped to do very well at the Breed Sieger in Germany this year and has been recommended for use as a stud to improve working capability and structure.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/450116.html
(All working lines)
Oh look, here he is working - 98 points, superb.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAjbXJ1kCQM&feature=related
And at the breed Sieger last year
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PurQCqVrH8I&feature=related


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

RubysGold said:



			But all those photos show exactly what I was talking about.
		
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I don't know what you mean? Some of those pics show my dogs with a gentle slope to the croup (which is included in the international breed standard), some show them with backlines so straight you could eat your dinner off them, depends how I've caught them with the camera, how much pressure I am putting on the lead etc. So sorry, I don't understand your point.

"What I've heard" is the problem. Lots of people "hear" things, I'd rather people based their statements on what they "see" or even better, what they "know". Hope that helps.

CDRM:
http://www.alternativevet.org/cdrm.htm

Harkback is actually the person to ask, they are very knowledgeable about it!
It attacks the nerves that control the back legs and then eventually the front.


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## ridebumble (5 July 2010)

I was at crufts (and got a 1st too) , Lagos is a very nice dog, as Cavecanem says he has good hip and elbow scores, and SCHIII is not easy to do so he must have a bit of brains! He moved well earlier on when I saw him but I didn't stay till later on so don't know how he was later


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## RubysGold (5 July 2010)

I meant, their front end is higher then the back.Their back ends look like they're about to sit down :/ 
I think I'm getting the hang of this though, from reading your replies, I can see thats just what GSD's are meant to be like.
BUT I just have one more question? 
What were GSD's like before KC got hold of them? I look at alot of pedigree dogs and the KC have ruined them. But did the GSD always have a lower back end?


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

Thank God you're here RB, I was getting bored of myself 
Well done on the 1st


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## RubysGold (5 July 2010)

Have just read some of the page about CDRM. Doesnt the fact it affects the spine and mostly GSD's prove that its the shape of their back causing an issue?


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

RubysGold said:



			I meant, their front end is higher then the back.Their back ends look like they're about to sit down :/ 
I think I'm getting the hang of this though, from reading your replies, I can see thats just what GSD's are meant to be like.
BUT I just have one more question? 
What were GSD's like before KC got hold of them? I look at alot of pedigree dogs and the KC have ruined them. But did the GSD always have a lower back end?
		
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Sorry, maybe I've been blinded by so many years of looking at them but I cannot see where my dogs look like they are about to sit down.
But that's by the by. I can show you a million pics of my dogs and others jumping, running at full stretch, taking down helpers in bite suits but that would get boring.

Yes, the GSD is supposed to be straight along the BACK and then a gentle slope from the end of the back to the croup which makes up the backLINE, from the withers to the tail, yes, there should, according to the standard, be a slight difference in height.
Here, have a look at these:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/info/15.html
http://www.total-german-shepherd.com/images/GSDskeleton.gif
http://sarjettegsd.webs.com/breedstandard.htm

I would say that the German standard has had more of an influence than the KC. You have to remember that the GSD is only just over 100 years old and has ALWAYS been a work in progress. The founding father of the breed spent his later lifetime making changes and improvements and every year different aspects are discussed at the top levels and different dogs are recommended for improving the pertinent faults.

The problem with the KC is they are refusing to implement health tests as a prerequisite to registering puppies. The 'German' faction want the KC to stop registering puppies from parents with no hip/elbow scores, or high scores, puppies from males without a haem test.

The KC keep coming back and asking the German fraternity to correct an issue with hocks, which is being done, but there is no health test to determine if a dog's hocks will be loose or not.
And outside attraction - which does not harm the dogs but the KC does not like. I think it adds to the atmosphere 

As a result some factions of the GSD world are running their own shows and trials under SV (German) rules away from the kennel club. These, like ours, require health tests and working qualifications for the dogs to be able to compete at the top level and therefore hopefully be promoted as the dogs to breed from.

The hocks are a problem that people can see, but they do not cause any pain to the dog and CAN in some cases be corrected with proper exercise.
HD and ED cannot be seen but DO often cause pain and heartache for owner and dog alike. 

Judges can and should penalise dogs with loose hocks. At the show pictured above, I was there all day and heard no criticism of hocks, quite the opposite.

Anyhoo, not sure if that has cleared things up any....


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## numptynoelle (5 July 2010)

RubysGold said:



			Have just read some of the page about CDRM. Doesnt the fact it affects the spine and mostly GSD's prove that its the shape of their back causing an issue?
		
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Correlation doesn't equal causation - I think I'm right in saying that there is no known cause, however there may be an autoimmune link. I'm not sure if the nerves affected by CDRM act any differently depending on spine shape, but wouldn't have thought so. I'm interested now! Off to do some more research


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## RubysGold (5 July 2010)

Thanks CC
Is the GSD really only just over 100 year old, how did they come around?

Your dogs don't look so bad CC, but the one at top of this page has a very noticeable slope. However I now know where you are coming from  

Thank you CC (and others for your comments too)


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

RubysGold said:



			Have just read some of the page about CDRM. Doesnt the fact it affects the spine and mostly GSD's prove that its the shape of their back causing an issue?
		
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As I know, it comes from the actual brain attacks the NERVES in the spine, not the skeleton.
Two of our recent five have had it. 
It can also be present in labradors, collies, golden retrievers.
I would love to say it is more common in GSDs because they are more numerous, but I don't know if that would be correct or not.

Have a look at this thread:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=371633
Particularly Harkback's posts.


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## kirstyhen (5 July 2010)

Oi, CC, stop prevaricating around in here and get into my 'For CC' thread


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## Booboos (5 July 2010)

I have held back for as long as I possibly could, but I can't anymore, here are some gratuitous pics of the (other) Dizzy one:


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## soloabe (5 July 2010)

RubysGold said:



			Thanks CC
Is the GSD really only just over 100 year old, how did they come around?

Your dogs don't look so bad CC, but the one at top of this page has a very noticeable slope. However I now know where you are coming from  

Thank you CC (and others for your comments too)
		
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Because he is being made to stand like that. Just as CC showed. If he was stood with "normally" he would look much more straight backed.


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## RubysGold (5 July 2010)

Thanks CC  

Makes sense now, your a star  And none of you have jumped on me, so thanks for that too


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## RubysGold (5 July 2010)

Lol Kirtsyhen, sorry, I stole her haha

Booboos: Dizzy looks "normal", lol, her back seems straighter. 
But I can see what you mean now you say that Katielou


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

RubysGold said:



			Thanks CC
Is the GSD really only just over 100 year old, how did they come around?
		
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Here's a pretty easy read 
http://www.germanshepherdrescue.co.uk/german-shepherd-history.html

The first German Shepherd Dog was registered at Horand vom Grafath.
All pedigree, registered German Shepherds, including my own, can be traced back to him.


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## kirstyhen (5 July 2010)

Booboos, LOVE that picture of Dizzy running, he looks awesome!!

RubysGold, can you not see that Dizzy has a slight slope from his loin to his tail and if he were stacked with his back legs out it would become much more pronouced?


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## ridebumble (5 July 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			Thank God you're here RB, I was getting bored of myself 
Well done on the 1st 

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Why thank you    I am sat in the back of my car with laptop awaiting the mutts finishing their food so I'm not going to be able to contribute much  None of my dogs have bums on the floor ... some slope more than others and depending on how I stand them depends on how sloped they look. The breed is 100% influenced by germany, I have just bred a girl with an import from germany but he isn't extreme either.
 I think when you look at some pictures of germanic gsd's by say Urma then people tend to think the dog walks round stretched out but its just how the handler stands them for photo's. 

With regards to the KC the gsd breed clubs are now doing there own shows because they are disgusted that the KC would allow a dog with a hip score of 99 to be bred and they will happily register the pups and if they are an accredited bredder will even let them advertise on the kc site !!!

If I wanted to be KC accredited then I just pay my money, but its poinntless so I don't.

Ps all my dogsd are hip and elbow scored and my stud hemophilia tested.


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## Booboos (5 July 2010)

RubysGold said:



			Booboos: Dizzy looks "normal", lol, her back seems straighter. 
But I can see what you mean now you say that Katielou 

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He he he, it's a boy! Named Dizzy because when he was younger he would chase his tail until he got dizzy and fell over. 

He's standing au naturel though because he's never been shown and hasn't been taught to present for a judge. In the second pick you can see how flexible his back end is and how it can really tuck under (at least that was the excuse I gave myself for posting it!!! )


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

katielou_houston said:



			Because he is being made to stand like that. Just as CC showed. If he was stood with "normally" he would look much more straight backed.
		
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Correct. That top pic, I just lead checked him until he stood like that, it's called 'walking (them) into a stand')

Dizzy looks fab, BB


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## RubysGold (5 July 2010)

Ohhh, now you mention it. 
I can see that if you move the legs back it would be more pronounced. I noticed a very slight slope on the first pic. But until you mentioned it, I didnt think about it.

Oops sorry Booboos, he is lovely


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## Booboos (5 July 2010)

kirstyhen said:



			Booboos, LOVE that picture of Dizzy running, he looks awesome!!
		
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Thank you! This is where he gets to eat the Spitz. Apparently eating a Spitz a day is the best prophylactic against hip dysplasia!


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## Booboos (5 July 2010)

Thank you all and on that note I had better go sort out the various animals and stop looking for any excuse to post more pics!


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## MurphysMinder (5 July 2010)

Bloomin heck, this thread has grown in my absence.  Sorry to abandon you CC, son and his percussion practice!
Just to pick up on a few points in the previous posts, yeh booboos, my mum bred in partnership with the lady who had the Velindre affix for quite a few years.  They went their separate ways when mum favoured the german lines and the lady with Velindre favoured the english,but they remained best of friends .  If there is anything in Dizzys pedigree with the affix Velindre-Gorsefield that was jointly bred with mum.  
Re hips, I have used bitches with scores in the low teens (always below breed average) on a couple of  occasions,I used dogs with single figure scores.  First time had 2 scored from the litter, both better than their dam, second litter was out of my wonderful Chaka, who had a score of 12, used a dog with a score of 5, the bitch I sold scored 8, the one I kept (Buffy) scored 38.  She will be 10 in September and although she is a bit of a wreck (eyesight problems and damaged spine, probably caused by falling down a land drain as a result of the bad eyes) her hips don't actually bother her.
Re that infamous Crufts carpet, I twice competed in agility at Crufts, manyt of the dogs struggled terribly on it, it really does not help movement.  If a light dog like a collie has a problem is it any wonder dogs with powerful hind movement find it hard, although I do agree that perhaps prior training with Lagos to get him to gait on a loose lead might have helped.
And CDRM is a neurological condition, can be compared to MS, it affects the nerves that control the spine and hind legs, rather than the spine itself.

Ets.  Booboos, Dizzy has a real "Velindre" head in that photo.  I wish I had some photos of mums dogs that I could post, sadly we discovered on her death that nearly all her photos were missing, presumably destroyed, a sad result of her dementia.


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

Here is our bitch from old English lines (by Spartacist of Hendrawen) who had CDRM aged 10-12 - no sign of a spine deformity there! - she won a RCC under Dr Willis and would have taken the ticket had she been older, she came out of the junior class.
Photo taken mid to late 70s.






And for MM and BB 





Readers of Joyce Stranger will recognise the female on the right.....






MM you have to come visit and sit in a big pile of handbooks all day


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## MurphysMinder (5 July 2010)

Blimey CC, real blast from the past.  The top pages show quite well how Jess was going more English and mum more germanic.  Balta was a lovely type of dog for the day, though sadly his bitch line was  dodgy.  And dear Shad (Chippy) was actually windy as a coot.


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## confetti (5 July 2010)

We have 2 german shepherds, both from rescue. One is the good old fashion
square type nice movement straight backed. the other is sloping and when we
first had him he was only 7 months old and his hocks were nearly touching the
ground when he walked, he buckled when he moved,  really bad..but as he has grown and developed his legs and hocks are stronger and he moves better, but he still has an arched back and his tail still drags the ground sometimes....but we love him.


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

Ah, a new member of the GSD Mafia. Welcome. Please post pics 
Sand work and swimming are both excellent for building muscle on the hindquarters if you think your boy still needs work


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## MurphysMinder (5 July 2010)

Damn this short edit time, sorry, didn't even thank you for posting those pages, they are great.  And of course I meant Shah when I put shad.


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

No worries, they're all waiting here for your perusal in my wee library


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## Fii (5 July 2010)

Just poped in to ask a small question re backs, what about bannana backed GSD, i used to see a lot of dogs like this, but not anymore, now that can't be good conformation, can it??
 Would that be English or german breeding ?


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## Fii (5 July 2010)

PS, they always seemed to be very fine boned, small animals as well


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2010)

You mean the ones that dip under between the withers ? They would be English lines.
Although that's what the English people called the German dogs, banana backs, depends what way you hold the banana, I suppose....they're the ones I would say are least likely to be able to do a day's work. Although I am sure some were capable.

If I may hark back to bygone days, looking through some of those old handbooks, kennels like Glenvoca and Brittas from the early days - dogs bred from those very early German imports, there are multiple dogs of that breeding who were English, Irish and Obedience Champions - and I mean, the same dogs having all three titles. 
There are pics of Mrs Barringtons international champions from  'Brittas' herding sheep and cattle on her property.
Be nice if we could get back to that multi-purpose standard with dogs bred here in the UK.

ETA - if you do mean the bananas as in the roached backs, when the German dogs first started to become fashionable, some people here got the dogs the Germans didn't want, ie not the best examples, a lot of people thought German meant 'skinny' or 'roached back',
I remember my mother sent a bitch out of the ring because you could see all it's ribs and spine.
However there is a lot more knowledge (and money, to buy in the good dogs!) about now.


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## Fii (6 July 2010)

More like a roach back, i supose, almost like someone had got hold of the spine in the middle, and pulled it up, they always looked uncomfortable, but as i say i hav'nt seen one for years.


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## CorvusCorax (6 July 2010)

And usually very pale black and gold as well?
People used to think that was what 'German' looked like, sadly!


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## Fii (6 July 2010)

I remember someone saying to me , that they were german lines, he had a lovely chunky chap, but was a bit like me, loved the breed, but did'nt have much knowledge about breeding, as such.
 My thoughts were, that as it is a German breed, surely the germans would'nt breed something that, to me, loked inferier (SP).


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## EAST KENT (6 July 2010)

Sorry folks I just don`t buy the Cruft`s slippy carpet stuff..been on it many times,niether me nor my dogs have ever had the remotest problem with it.The original GSD way back looked almost like the modern working type Malinois,and for powerhouse speed and intelligence I`ll go with them ,thanks. I was gob smacked by Lagos in the big ring,instead of being capable of walking slowly when asked it had it`s back bent round and under it like a rabbit. Very very abnormal in a canine ,whatever breed it is.After all,that poor peke a few years back was "normal" to it`s breeders..which is a joke to the rest of us.Think it is all a bit like the Emperor`s new clothes.


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## CAYLA (6 July 2010)

I never get involved in the Gsd debates, I will just say, the hips dont lie come on, I had to say that If I had a quid for everytime someone has said to me, "his back is really straight that means he is very well bred" the last lady that said that to me, her dog is now a cripple and she assumed he was well bred, as a rescue she saw bog all proof, apart from he looked nice, good job I took his knackers away, or she would have been breeding from it
My mam had slopey back (more so when they where placed that way) and they had no issues what so ever with hard work and never had an issues later in life and they where very active show/obedience dogs.
I dont think any off CC pics shows any ground hoggin either, they look pretty normal, even the one where CC her self looks like a spaz in the pic
Ok im jsut taking the P now *leaves thread*


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## MurphysMinder (6 July 2010)

Don't really want to go back over the whole Lagos at Crufts thing EK, but whilst you may not "buy" it I can assure you my dogs and many others have had problems with the carpet in the big ring at Cruft, .  What breed do you have, because as I have already said it is the dogs with a lot of hind thrust who seem to find it hard to cope.  Before anyone points out that agility is not held in the BIS ring, it used to be until a separate area was set up for it.


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## Booboos (6 July 2010)

Thanks for all the info MM and CC!!

We are practically related then MM!  I can't spot any Velindre/Gorsefield sadly, but I have Velindre Vanity Fair, Velindre King of the Castle, Velindre Brocade, Velindre Jaeger and Velindre Cass, if any of that rings any bells. You must come over and meet Dizzy and the rest of the gang!


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## CorvusCorax (6 July 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			Sorry folks I just don`t buy the Cruft`s slippy carpet stuff..been on it many times,niether me nor my dogs have ever had the remotest problem with it.The original GSD way back looked almost like the modern working type Malinois,and for powerhouse speed and intelligence I`ll go with them ,thanks. I was gob smacked by Lagos in the big ring,instead of being capable of walking slowly when asked it had it`s back bent round and under it like a rabbit. Very very abnormal in a canine ,whatever breed it is.After all,that poor peke a few years back was "normal" to it`s breeders..which is a joke to the rest of us.Think it is all a bit like the Emperor`s new clothes.
		
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Each to their own EK but I think we've already gathered that our dogs are constructed and move differently, the way a hackney or a Tennessee walking horse moves differently from a TB or a Connemara. Different dogs for different jobs (waits for Gazey to come smack me round the head )
That dog would not have the qualifications he had, if he wasn't able to move properly.

As I mentioned, to me, the GSD isn't really a 'trot around in a triangle on a carpet in an exhibition centre' kinda dog. Which is probably why it is best we don't disturb the rest of you with our madness 
Lagos was used to fast gaiting at the end of a long lead, outdoors on grass. He should have been better prepared.

As MM mentioned, as an agility competitor, her dogs, which have the normal, correct hind thrust, had problems with the Crufts carpet. 

I'm not actually a big fan of Malis, I know a lot of people who have them, and any of the ones I know, you could not approach them and pat them like a GSD. Not one. A lot of that determination and focus they show in something like ring sport can be based on nerves and fear rather than confidence and control.
Re the early shepherd? The Rittmeister himself, while of course in praise of Horand vom Grafath, spent a long time perfecting the breed and dogs owned by Captain Riechelmann around 1880 were described as "more geese-herders than sheepdogs".

Don't get me wrong, I know there are problems, right at the very core and at the upper echelons of the breed, because of us humans, (and why the RSV is growing in popularity and has recently received FCI status!) and I hope this year at the Sieger, dogs like Javir Talka Marda, who is a fantastic working dog and has correct, non-extreme construction, as well as other dogs of his ilk that are out there, are right up there with the rest.
It will be a brave step to take but it needs to happen.


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## ridebumble (6 July 2010)

Fit for life .. as the KC keep saying


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## MurphysMinder (6 July 2010)

Superb picture.


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## CorvusCorax (6 July 2010)

And fit for a function...that the KC don't recognise or support 
Lovely pics


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## ridebumble (6 July 2010)

another of a different girl


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## CorvusCorax (6 July 2010)

Awesome


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## Booboos (6 July 2010)

Fantastic photos!!!

Must be something about GSDs and snow!


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## ridebumble (6 July 2010)

Booboos said:



			Fantastic photos!!!

Must be something about GSDs and snow!
		
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I have 1000's of pics .. these were on my work laptop otherwise it could of been a sunny one ..


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## kirstyhen (6 July 2010)

Fab pictures!

MM, I must have a lot of hind thrust, 'cos I nearly fell on my arse on the green carpet!


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## MurphysMinder (6 July 2010)

kirstyhen said:



			Fab pictures!

MM, I must have a lot of hind thrust, 'cos I nearly fell on my arse on the green carpet!   

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LOL, so did I the last time I competed there, but in my case it was more an unbalanced load as I was pregnant, not ideal for sharp turns in the agility ring.


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## ridebumble (6 July 2010)

Last one






 

its not just dogs I like taking pics of though


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## MurphysMinder (6 July 2010)

I hope that is hip scored too!  Amazing picture, hope you had a long lens.


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## ridebumble (6 July 2010)

MurphysMinder said:



			I hope that is hip scored too!  Amazing picture, hope you had a long lens.
		
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  it was a decent distance away, wouldn't fancy sitting with that while it went drowsy before xray'ing


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## Booboos (6 July 2010)

Great photos, you have a real talent!

WOW, hope that was a really, really long distance away!


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## MurphysMinder (6 July 2010)

My daughter posted pics on FB of her and some vet student friends sitting behind a lion they had sedated, not good for a mothers nerves.


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## ridebumble (6 July 2010)

I donm't thinik I'm particulary talented .. just take loads and some come out !


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## EAST KENT (6 July 2010)

There are problems in the breed CC and I am glad you do at least acknowledge this.The peke people are HAVING to listen to the Kennel Club;As I understand it the KC has a gripe with the GSD people over double handling and the way they are judged in a different way to other breeds?? Please can you explain?? My breeds are bull terriers and min bull terriers,I`ve bred these for forty years and it is a life`s work.


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## Booboos (6 July 2010)

ridebumble said:



			I donm't thinik I'm particulary talented .. just take loads and some come out !
		
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I beg to differ! These are amazing photos and you are clearly very talented!


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## ridebumble (6 July 2010)

Booboos said:



			I beg to differ! These are amazing photos and you are clearly very talented!
		
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 . . .


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## MurphysMinder (6 July 2010)

Stunning photos, where were they taken?


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## ridebumble (6 July 2010)

Chester zoo .. I have hundereds from Kenya but they are all on film

And taken on cannon 40D


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## MurphysMinder (6 July 2010)

Not quite sure what you want CC to explain EK?  The main issue some GSD folk have with the KC is that they continue to register dogs with high hip scores, or unscored, non standard colours etc, yet they turn round and bleat about dogs being fit for function.  If you have been around dogs for over 40 years you will know GSDs have always been judged far more on movement than most other breeds, that is nothing new.  The KC do also seem to have accepted double handling up to a point (and I do agree some folk go totally over the top), this isn't particularly new either, I remember being at the show when a german judge first told us to "call our dogs", think it was in the early 80s, the atmosphere at that show was amazing.


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## MurphysMinder (6 July 2010)

ridebumble said:



			Chester zoo .. I have hundereds from Kenya but they are all on film

And taken on cannon 40D
		
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Bah you've shattered my illusion now, thought you'd been on exotic safaris.  Not been to Chester zoo since my son was a toddler, must go again some time.


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## ridebumble (6 July 2010)

MurphysMinder said:



			Bah you've shattered my illusion now, thought you'd been on exotic safaris.  Not been to Chester zoo since my son was a toddler, must go again some time.
		
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Sorry to shatter the illusion  My Kenya pics are real safari material but they are all on file and I hsaven't got round to scanning the negs ... good old film days .. nearly £200 getting the films developed


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## CorvusCorax (6 July 2010)

As MM, says, and I explained in a reply to the OP a while back, breed delegations have been going to the KC for decades asking for health tests (hips, haem, elbows) as a pre-requisite for registration and health tests and working qualifications to be taken account in the ring, so that the right type of dog is being promoted, but all the KC can come back with is 'stop double handling and address the issue of hocks' - neither of which can be described as a serious health issue, although the latter is of course undesirable.
Meanwhile the KC will register the offspring of dysplastics, epileptics, very close relatives. There is no excuse for very close inbreeding in a breed with the gene pool that we now have.

We judge a lot more to the international breed standard. Our dogs are asked to gait around the whole ring, on a long lead, at walk, trot and fast trot, not at heel and in a triangle. During the fast gaiting especially, people call their dogs, whistle, run around the outside of the ring to alert their dogs. It might not be everybody's cup of tea but it originated in Germany where a lot of the shows take place in football and athletics stadiums and the atmosphere is electric.

We also don't go 'over' the dogs like other breeds - teeth check, balls check for the males, temperament test (pat on the head, walking in on the dog suddenly, dropping or slapping the clipboard or in German-style shows, a gun test) which is why you see dogs thinking 'what the fook are you doing?' when allrounders poke and prod them 

And of course the show stance is different. Obviously 

The reason the obsession on the movement? It's an economical, long, low, ground-eating gait with immense forward reach and hindthrust. It isn't meant to be a race (although some judges fail to realise this....) it's meant to show that the dog can move like that, all day if need be.
You can stand and pose a dog all you like, and you can even 'hold it up' while it moves, I see a lot of other breeds being strung up on thin collars and leads, but if it falls to pieces when asked to gait on a loose lead and crosses behind like a pair of scissors, then the dog is not put together correctly.

We want to have offlead gaiting in the adult classes - the KC will not allow it. This DOES take place at heel.
We want to have health tests and working tests as a prerequisite for entering the top classes, the KC will not allow it.
This is why a lot of clubs are going their own way - and I am sure other breeds will not be sorry to see the back of the noisy buggers


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## EAST KENT (6 July 2010)

Well if you want to show and judge so differently to our own KC ways it is surely better to go separate entirely.So are things like head shape and dentition not important?And as the Germans are so manic about mouths in bull terriers in Germany..are they not so in their native breed ?I can assure you that the KCAB scheme WILL be tightening the noose on stuff like hip scores,slowly and softly ..but in the end catchee monkee.


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## CorvusCorax (6 July 2010)

Of course, I just said the teeth were checked 

"teeth check, balls check for the males, temperament test (pat on the head, walking in on the dog suddenly, dropping or slapping the clipboard or in German-style shows, a gun test)"

I just said we don't do the whole putting hands all over the dog.
In fact missing teeth is regarded as a very serious fault. Dogs perfect in every other way can get dropped down the line quite rapidly - a missing tooth in one dog can lead to three or four a few generations along.

And you can tell the shape of a head by looking at it.

But I do agree, and it is good that we are now starting to form regions and host our own SV styles of show for those who want it.


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## pedilia (6 July 2010)

I'm not going to enter the debate but just wanted to share a photo of our GSD.


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## MurphysMinder (6 July 2010)

Where have you and your gorgeous shep been hiding?  Welcome to the GSD mafia


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## ChesnutsRoasting (6 July 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			As MM, says, and I explained in a reply to the OP a while back, breed delegations have been going to the KC for decades asking for health tests (hips, haem, elbows) as a pre-requisite for registration and health tests and working qualifications to be taken account in the ring, so that the right type of dog is being promoted, but all the KC can come back with is 'stop double handling and address the issue of hocks' - neither of which can be described as a serious health issue, although the latter is of course undesirable.
Meanwhile the KC will register the offspring of dysplastics, epileptics, very close relatives. There is no excuse for very close inbreeding in a breed with the gene pool that we now have.

We judge a lot more to the international breed standard. Our dogs are asked to gait around the whole ring, on a long lead, at walk, trot and fast trot, not at heel and in a triangle. During the fast gaiting especially, people call their dogs, whistle, run around the outside of the ring to alert their dogs. It might not be everybody's cup of tea but it originated in Germany where a lot of the shows take place in football and athletics stadiums and the atmosphere is electric.

We also don't go 'over' the dogs like other breeds - teeth check, balls check for the males, temperament test (pat on the head, walking in on the dog suddenly, dropping or slapping the clipboard or in German-style shows, a gun test) which is why you see dogs thinking 'what the fook are you doing?' when allrounders poke and prod them 

And of course the show stance is different. Obviously 

*The reason the obsession on the movement? It's an economical, long, low, ground-eating gait with immense forward reach and hindthrust. It isn't meant to be a race (although some judges fail to realise this....) it's meant to show that the dog can move like that, all day if need be.
You can stand and pose a dog all you like, and you can even 'hold it up' while it moves, I see a lot of other breeds being strung up on thin collars and leads, but if it falls to pieces when asked to gait on a loose lead and crosses behind like a pair of scissors, then the dog is not put together correctly.*
We want to have offlead gaiting in the adult classes - the KC will not allow it. This DOES take place at heel.
We want to have health tests and working tests as a prerequisite for entering the top classes, the KC will not allow it.
This is why a lot of clubs are going their own way - and I am sure other breeds will not be sorry to see the back of the noisy buggers 

Click to expand...

Could not agree more!

I cannot bear seeing dogs shown this way.  Allow the dog to move properly for chrissakes!


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## CorvusCorax (6 July 2010)

pedilia said:



			I'm not going to enter the debate but just wanted to share a photo of our GSD.





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Well hellloooooooooooooo!!!!!
Who's this? 

Cheers BS. If we could reach a happy medium between dogs being throttled with  their front feet barely touching the ground and all out ridiculous out-of-control sprinting complete with air-horn blowing sideshows and people getting knocked down outside the ring, then I think everybody would be happy


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## RubysGold (6 July 2010)

pedilia said:



			I'm not going to enter the debate but just wanted to share a photo of our GSD.





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WOW!
Now thats a beautiful dog if ever I saw one!
Very very pretty


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## EAST KENT (6 July 2010)

Good grief..people knocked over outside the ring by double handlers? Must take a minute at the next Champ show to see this circus for myself!My breed is never ever "strung up"..loose lead ,shown free standing,no disguising physical faults or movement,in fact strung up dogs always move appallingly in my breeds.Anyway..your own award system and shows looks the way to go,but I`ll def try and get a look..it sounds hilarious!


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## CorvusCorax (6 July 2010)

In fairness I haven't seen anyone knocked flying since the mid 90s (and that person has since been banned, HURRAY!) but we're used to people coming to gawp and tut 
We implemented an area for spectators and an area for attractors last month and it seemed to work very well 

I appreciate most people don't string their dogs up, it is of course a generalisation, but some do and I saw a Sibe gasping for breath a few months ago because the handler kept hauling it up off it's front feet with a slip lead right up behind its' ears.


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## Booboos (6 July 2010)

pedilia said:



			I'm not going to enter the debate but just wanted to share a photo of our GSD.





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AHHHHHHHHHH! What a huge fluff-ball!!! Isn't he (she?) looking for a massive cuddle?!


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## MurphysMinder (6 July 2010)

Re stringing up, if you look closely at the picture on page 3 of this thread that CC posted for me, Ch Gorsefield Shah, you will see his collar was right up behind his ears,  It was also a very fine chain choke, that is how gsds were shown then, you rarely saw the natural movement in the ring because the dogs head was held artificially high,  yet off lead and gaiting round the field shah was a lovely moving dog.  Although some gsd folk do go over the top with the double handling, I would far rather see the dogs as they are shown nowadays than back in the 70s.


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## ridebumble (6 July 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			In fairness I haven't seen anyone knocked flying since the mid 90s (and that person has since been banned, HURRAY!) but we're used to people coming to gawp and tut 

Click to expand...

 I have been run into a couple of times .. and the last champ show I went to fisticuffs happened between a steward and competitor  ( I was told)


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## minmax (6 July 2010)

pedilia said:



			I'm not going to enter the debate but just wanted to share a photo of our GSD.





Click to expand...

Wow, what a lovely colour? What is it classed as, his/ her name etc


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## pedilia (6 July 2010)

He is a Silver Sable, his name is Zach. He was originally sold as a stud but has only one testicle descended so found his way to us.


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## minmax (6 July 2010)

He's lovely. I haven't seen one like him.


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## CorvusCorax (6 July 2010)

ridebumble said:



			I have been run into a couple of times .. and the last champ show I went to fisticuffs happened between a steward and competitor  ( I was told)
		
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Ah, heard about that one, gawd, they do like to live up to the stereotypes, some of them 

There's a wee bitch, much tighter coated, silver sable round the corner from us.
Very unusual looking but I prefer to keep to my old boring greys 
Mine hasn't any equipment either, doesn't make him a bad person


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## x_Fiona_x (6 July 2010)

GSDs with really sloping backs have american bloodlines where as straight backed dogs have german bloodlines. The american lines are used for showing where as the straight backed are traditionally used as working dogs. If I remember correctly.....I read about it a while ago.

I am the proud owner of a straight backed GSD called Khai


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## CorvusCorax (6 July 2010)

Yes and no, Fiona 

The American showlines are ridiculous , ski-slopes as they are known!

The majority of working lines are straight-backed dogs but there are plenty who could (and do) show in the breed ring (see vids/pics of Javir I posted a few pages back or a dog like Frankie Anerbi) 

there are also showline dogs who work (any dog with Sch I,II,II after his or her name has working qualifications).

These days the working lines in the UK today mostly come from East Germany, Slovakia, the Czech republic, Belgium and the Netherlands and are mostly black, bi-colour and dark sable. However there are still a few old English working lines.

Of the herding lines, Kirschental are probably the oldest and biggest kennel and their dogs also do very well in the showring as well as competing in herding (HGH)


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