# Neutering 8 week old puppies......



## Naryafluffy (15 August 2011)

does anyone know how much this affects the puppies?
Friend of a friend recently bought a Labradoodle and it had already been neutered at 8 weeks old, there are now problems with the puppy being a bit aggressive and wonder if being neutered at such an early age has messed up the natural hormone levels (it's a bitch), apparently the breeder is neutering the puppies to stop anyone else breeding from them and of course because they are cross breeds they're not KC registered and cannot have an endorsement put on them to stop this so the solution seems to be neutering before they go to the new homes.
I'm all for neutering all dogs unless there are very good reasons that they are going to be bred from but I've never heard of it being done that young before.


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## smiffyimp (15 August 2011)

dont know about side effects, but that is way too young, disgraceful in fact. What were the vets doing!


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## Vizslak (15 August 2011)

How old is the dog now? I find it hard to believe that any vet would actually neuter at that age, it seems ludicrous. Especially in a large breed like that, I can only see that these pups will have severe issues from neutering so early, they are no where near developed at that age. Shocking.


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## Vizslak (15 August 2011)

Just reading up on this and it appears quite common in the US, interesting. It actaully states in many articles that aggression problems should be eliminated by early neuter, what an odd claim! I would be personally more concerned with the risks to growth and bones by neutering so early but it does seem common with little side effect in the US. No real studies seem to have been done about it though.


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## EAST KENT (15 August 2011)

You should all rush out and buy last Friday`s Our Dogs. In it are some very interesting facts and figures that really do put the "neutering for health" stuff under scrutiny. And all about the physical effects of early neutering..next weeks edition covers the mental effects. Read and absorb!


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## s4sugar (15 August 2011)

PMSL @ a "labradoodle" breeder wanting to stop indiscriminate breeding.

I know a vet in Florida who neuters pet puppies at eight weeks & has done for years.


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## CAYLA (15 August 2011)

I have heard of this breeder, these doodle things go for £1500 Im sure, so literally the purchaser is shelling out for the neutering, they obs have a vet who is ok with it and probably get s a descent amount of cash in exchange.
Its done so that the buyers cannot then make a mint for x breedes like the bsb shelling them out.
8 weeks is far to young, im all for neutering and yes I believe and have seen the results of health issues on both sides and still believe neutering at the correct age is best.
In America the rescues do it, and to be fair there are some full on knobbers in this world that will breed from anything with the organs to do so, so you cannot blame them


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## CorvusCorax (15 August 2011)

I do agree with neutering adult non-breeding stock, but eight weeks is ridiculous IMO.
EK, dog publications make a lot of money from people advertising studs and litters, no? 
Although should make interesting reading, thanks for the heads-up 
Oh, I take it these breeders also hip and elbow score, as they are so into health and responsibility?


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## Cluck (15 August 2011)

Vizslak said:



			Just reading up on this and it appears quite common in the US, interesting. It actaully states in many articles that aggression problems should be eliminated by early neuter, what an odd claim! I would be personally more concerned with the risks to growth and bones by neutering so early but it does seem common with little side effect in the US. No real studies seem to have been done about it though.
		
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Yes it is very common here. Most rescue organisations have to neuter puppies before they can be adopted.

I adopted a puppy last year and had to jump through many hoops to stop him being neutered at 8 weeks. I had to sign an agreement and get letters from my vet. It was worth it; pup got to grow to 9 months before losing his jewels.


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## Cinnamontoast (15 August 2011)

8 weeks? Christ, I'm amazed the pups survived the anaesthetic!


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## MurphysMinder (15 August 2011)

Hmmm, it did cross my mind that it was maybe a way of the breeder keeping the monopoly on the market in that particular cross breed in their area.  The thought of an 8 week old pup undergoing spay surgery is pretty shocking I must say.  
Thanks for the heads up re Our Dogs, I only get Dog World, will have to try and get hold of a copy of OD.


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## Foxhunter49 (15 August 2011)

As said, it is common in the USA.

I too disagree with it as testosterone is needed to close growth which is why any animal neutered before full growth (or very near) is probably going to get much taller.

There are also many other health issues involved.

I am all for spay/neuter - we only have one intact bitch in the dogs here and she is breed worthy but none were neutered before they were at least 18 months old (with the terriers) and the bigger dogs (Labs, BC and GSD) were all over two years.


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## prosefullstop (15 August 2011)

Vizslak said:



			Just reading up on this and it appears quite common in the US.
		
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Definitely common among puppy mill "breeders".

My pug came from a pet store, and was fixed at ten weeks of age. He's much taller than the average pug, and his coat is like than of an arctic breed, both of which are linked to early neutering. He has an incredibly sweet personality, however, so luckily that wasn't affected.


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## soloabe (15 August 2011)

Its pretty common in most rescues in the UK also. Especially the big ones.


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## EAST KENT (15 August 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			I do agree with neutering adult non-breeding stock, but eight weeks is ridiculous IMO.
EK, dog publications make a lot of money from people advertising studs and litters, no? 
Although should make interesting reading, thanks for the heads-up 
Oh, I take it these breeders also hip and elbow score, as they are so into health and responsibility?
		
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I thought it might be a good article to put in my puppy pack..before some vet scares ``em s..tless  and neuters it early.


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## Elsbells (15 August 2011)

I think it's barbaric!

Every living creature needs to grow and to remove the hormones is just stupid before the animal has had the chance to mature. There are far to manny vets out there telling folk to have their puppy neutered as this will make it more manageable, instead of telling them what they should be, which is to to get out there off the sofa, walk it and train it and allow it to be a dog and grow up.

If you don't want a pup to behave like a pup, or a youngster to misbehave, don't have a dog!


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## Naryafluffy (16 August 2011)

Vizslak said:



			How old is the dog now? I find it hard to believe that any vet would actually neuter at that age, it seems ludicrous. Especially in a large breed like that, I can only see that these pups will have severe issues from neutering so early, they are no where near developed at that age. Shocking.
		
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Puppy I believe is now 12 weeks and they are having agression issues already, wonder why.




s4sugar said:



			PMSL @ a "labradoodle" breeder wanting to stop indiscriminate breeding.
		
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Prettu much what my trainer said as well, she doesn't like the cross breed because she feels this is what happens when you can't put an endorsement on the breed papers



CAYLA said:



			I have heard of this breeder, these doodle things go for £1500 Im sure, so literally the purchaser is shelling out for the neutering, they obs have a vet who is ok with it and probably get s a descent amount of cash in exchange.
Its done so that the buyers cannot then make a mint for x breedes like the bsb shelling them out.
8 weeks is far to young, im all for neutering and yes I believe and have seen the results of health issues on both sides and still believe neutering at the correct age is best.
In America the rescues do it, and to be fair there are some full on knobbers in this world that will breed from anything with the organs to do so, so you cannot blame them

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Think this could be the one, but I have been told 2 different prices, one said the woman paid £1700 the other £3200 (why would you pay either of those amounts for a cross breed), think I'll stick with getting non-puppies from breed rescue/rehoming places, then I can get them neutered at the correct age.


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## s4sugar (16 August 2011)

Naryafluffy said:



			........

Prettu much what my trainer said as well, she doesn't like the cross breed because she feels this is what happens when you can't put an endorsement on the breed papers
		
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Many of the parents of these mutts are actually endorsed "Progeny not eligible for registration" anyway but it doesn't count as the pups cannot be registered.

I have two expensive mutts in boarding at the moment. One looks like a lab with a beard and the other like a big grey/black mop complete with dreadlocks. One has dodgy hips & the other I suspect has SA although the vet thinks the patchy coat is due to stress when their child was born as "Labradoodles don't get SA" = this is an F2 with poodle on both sides & oh yes they do! (Ringworm scrapes have been checked)
When tis pair first came in I asked why they didn't get a standard poodle?
Their answer - they didn't like how they were cut!!

I suppose anyone dumb enough to not realise hair can be trimmed anyway you wish (if it gets brushed) is asking to be conned.


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## Naryafluffy (16 August 2011)

s4sugar said:



			I suppose anyone dumb enough to not realise hair can be trimmed anyway you wish (if it gets brushed) is asking to be conned.
		
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How do these people actually manage to survive when they are that stupid, this is a prime example of why you should have to take a test before you are allowed to own an animal, think you should have to take one before you're allowed to breed, would stop wasters breeding wasters and costing us so much!!!


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## Cinnamontoast (16 August 2011)

katielou said:



			Its pretty common in most rescues in the UK also. Especially the big ones.
		
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In which ones? The standard here is generally 6 months from what I can gather, which IMO is also way too early.


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## Oneofthepack (16 August 2011)

elsbells said:



			I think it's barbaric!

If you don't want a pup to behave like a pup, or a youngster to misbehave, don't have a dog!
		
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100% with you! 
I had no idea this went on? How is it even possible to find an 8 week old pups testicles?   I can see it's sensible from a rescue point of view but I'd rather educate people or make it law somehow that you don't breed EVER unless you have written permission along with a licence...........and then she wakes up


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## Vizslak (16 August 2011)

most pups testes are descended by 8 weeks OOTP. Still though, its just all bloody wrong to me. I cant quite get my head round it tbh. When these pups are fully grown, are you not likely to end up with a dog with an eternal pup like mentality?! Ie frustrated, short attention span etc? I just cant see the benefit. I am all for neutering at the right time but this makes no sense to me. Agree with whoever said it sounds like they are doing to keep the monoply on those ridiculous prices they charge in this instance, which is fair enough, at the end of the day it will stop hundreds more of the things being bred but surely contracting owners the traditional way is better than desexing at such early age. I find it hard to believe (in response to OP's original q) that it would create more aggression, I would have thought the opposite in males (females I can see it would be very detrimental to) but as I said I cant find any real studies done on the subject.


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## horsies4coursies (16 August 2011)

katielou where in the UK do they neuter at 8wks - where i worked we worked closely with the local rescue centres and nothing was neutered below the age of 6mnths


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## soloabe (16 August 2011)

cinammontoast said:



			In which ones? The standard here is generally 6 months from what I can gather, which IMO is also way too early.
		
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All of the puppies my mum has fostered for the blue cross have been neutered by the time she gets them usually 14 weeks and under.
Same for the few she has had from the RSPCA.


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## Vizslak (16 August 2011)

Blue cross do not neuter under 6 months, I'm not sure on all RSPCA centres but I dont believe its standard policy throughout the RSPCA.


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## MurphysMinder (16 August 2011)

A vet would need a magnifying glass to find Pickles balls, and he is 10 weeks.  I suppose a plus is that it wouldn't need a big incision!   I know of a couple of people who have had pups from RSPCA and they certainly haven't been neutered so don't think it is common place round here.


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## MurphysMinder (16 August 2011)

Interesting article here, according to this the RSPCA do often neuter as young as 6 weeks but not the Blue Cross.

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/rspca.shtml


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## Naryafluffy (16 August 2011)

Vizslak said:



			I find it hard to believe (in response to OP's original q) that it would create more aggression, I would have thought the opposite in males (females I can see it would be very detrimental to) but as I said I cant find any real studies done on the subject.
		
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It is a female puppy, think I might take a visit to puppy class a week on Sunday just to see what it is actually like, if it's the owner over-reacting to puppy behaviour.


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## I*HM (16 August 2011)

Sorry, am reading this from a phone and reading all the replies is impossible with mini writing so didn't get to finish reading all the other replies. As a result, I am purely replying to the original post.

I actually had this conversation with a vet today, this is what I gathered from it...
In America it is common to neuter puppies at a very young age, and often to no ill effect. Over here it's more common to neuter at a later age. For bitches, it's preferable for them to have gone into heat at least once before they're done, to allow estrogen levels to settle and reduce the chances of effecting/upsetting the bladder and such.


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## Vizslak (16 August 2011)

Naryafluffy said:



			It is a female puppy, think I might take a visit to puppy class a week on Sunday just to see what it is actually like, if it's the owner over-reacting to puppy behaviour.
		
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Ah I see sorry, I thought we were talking a male for some reason. In which case, I'm not suprised. I personally would expect to see adverse behavioural effects from such early neutering in a bitch.


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## Vizslak (16 August 2011)

the rspca policy (found on another forum) 

Thank you for your enquiry.

Neutering at six weeks only occurs at our Greater Manchester Animal Hospital and only under exceptional circumstances.

David Yates, director of the RSPCA's Greater Manchester Animal Hospital, said:

"Neutering dogs at six weeks old may sound upsetting to people, but we can reassure them that it is only done in a limited number of cases, for absolutely genuine reasons, and with positive results - offering those animals a chance to be quickly rehomed and given a loving home.

In Manchester in the 80s/90s, we had a major over-population problem with cats and dogs - unplanned mating, large numbers being put down, animal centres saturated, high numbers of road traffic accidents and high incidence of mammary tumours. While these are still problem issues, early neutering helps counter them, and must be judged against the alternatives.

Our policy is based fully on sound, peer-reviewed science. There are many benefits associated with early neutering. In fact, it can be better for the animals' welfare - for example the surgery is quicker, there are fewer complications, and the experience is less traumatic when it's carried out on young dogs.

"All RSPCA dogs are neutered before they are rehomed, with the exception of a few breeds which some evidence shows are more prone to incontinence after spaying. By carrying out the procedure as early as possible, we reduce the time the animal has to spend in a stressful kennel environment and are able to get them settled into a loving new home more quickly.

"The RSPCA re-homes thousands of unwanted dogs and puppies every year, and we recommend neutering as a good way to help reduce the problem of unwanted litters. If scientific evidence showed that this policy was wrong, then obviously - obviously - we would reconsider. But at the moment we are dealing with a very real problem with a sympathetic, practical and scientifically-backed policy."

The RSPCA generally neuters 'owned' dogs at around 12-14 weeks of age. At the Greater Manchester Animal Hospital, up to 50 stray/abandoned dogs a year are neutered at six weeks of age."

Thank you again for your concern.

Kind regards
RSPCA Enquiries Service


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## Naryafluffy (16 August 2011)

Vizslak said:



			Ah I see sorry, I thought we were talking a male for some reason. In which case, I'm not suprised. I personally would expect to see adverse behavioural effects from such early neutering in a bitch.
		
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I'll update the post on the puppy behaviour, classes start on Sunday, however I am likely to be at a show all day so will probably be next Sunday.


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## CAYLA (16 August 2011)

As sad as it is, or maybe just a shame? that the minority cant be trused to neuter a rescue, some folk are hell bent on breeding left right and center and being a rescue makes no difference to some complete thick headed money greedy morons. As much as I agree 8 weeks is to young, I also agree people are ignorant.
There is no real eveidence to suggest that the puppy is aggressive/snappy/nippy because of this early neutering, I have see many a display of early attitude from entire puppies and find the breed is more of a common denominator and the hands they are in. Breeding and living environment will  also play a strong part.  
Contracts are not fail safe either, we have contracted dogs where the adopters have decided they dont want their prized rescue neutering, in bo cases we took legal action and removed the dogs, obs the dogs where so prized they where worth losing and fair enough we don't neuter at 8 weeks, but we do now hang onto the puppy until its old enough to neuter, and we certainly may differ there too the puppy limbo always amuses me, I defintely think I would have seen evidence of this with the amount of dogs we deal with inc my own, the growth issue with larger breeds inc labradoodles if from a standard poodle of course is an issue here I believe. But all in all 8 weeks is to young, but neutering is best


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## Cinnamontoast (16 August 2011)

katielou said:



			All of the puppies my mum has fostered for the blue cross have been neutered by the time she gets them usually 14 weeks and under.
Same for the few she has had from the RSPCA.
		
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I am genuinely horrified if that is the case.


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## Dobiegirl (17 August 2011)

W*at a sad indictment of our times. Puppies bein* neutered to stop numpties breedin*  but are deemed capable of ownin* and carin* of t*e do* by t*e RSPCA.


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## EAST KENT (17 August 2011)

Our Dogs covers the behavioural problems of early neutering this Friday. Two things immediately spring to mind..the almost exact certainty that bitches will need Propalin for urine dribble..will someone taking on a rescue pay out for this forever drug?Will the insurance companies ,at some point ,refuse to pay out for this problem in early neutered bitches? Also,secondly,a dog`s growth plates are`nt firmly attached until ten months in my breed,probably later in bigger breeds.How will the body cope without the hormonal levels "instructing" the time of attachment?Again,will the insurance companies duck out of skeletal problems possibly linked to early neutering? They would be within their rights here,they won`t pay out for treatment related to non vaccination after all..


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## Naryafluffy (17 August 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Our Dogs covers the behavioural problems of early neutering this Friday. Two things immediately spring to mind..the almost exact certainty that bitches will need Propalin for urine dribble..will someone taking on a rescue pay out for this forever drug?Will the insurance companies ,at some point ,refuse to pay out for this problem in early neutered bitches? Also,secondly,a dog`s growth plates are`nt firmly attached until ten months in my breed,probably later in bigger breeds.How will the body cope without the hormonal levels "instructing" the time of attachment?Again,will the insurance companies duck out of skeletal problems possibly linked to early neutering? They would be within their rights here,they won`t pay out for treatment related to non vaccination after all..

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Don't normally but doggie magazines (normally get them 2nd hand off the trainer!!!), but think I might try and track down a copy on Friday.


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## CAYLA (17 August 2011)

I don't think insurance would get into such detail to be honest, I think you would have more chance of them refusing to pay out to an entire dog/bitch with direct un arguable conditions like pyometra and testicular cancer which is obviously in no doubt related to the dog/bitch being left entire.....where as incontinence is actually very popular in older entire bitches aswell as neutered and equally skeletal issues can also be seen in bad breeding/over exercise in puppies/miss matched cross breeds  so again very difficult for the insurance to prove this either. I have actually seen insurance refuse to pay out for a pyo, it was deemed preventible!
As it stands overall it's cheaper to insure a neutered dog.
Obs the argument is still, that 8 weeks is to young and waiting for growth is ideal.


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## Always Henesy (27 January 2014)

Just resurrecting this thread.....

Today I picked up an 8 week old Australian Labradoodle puppy from a local family.
They bought him last Friday....but it turns out that their son is severely allergic.
The breeder refused to take him back - hence a FB appeal and him coming to me.
I have all of his paperwork and I am astounded to read that he has been neutered already 
I have NEVER heard of an 8 week old puppy being neutered before? I have 3 other dogs and all were neutered at 6,10 & 14 months. I have absolutely NO intention of breeding - but to neuter this young seems barbaric to me.
Anyone else received such a young puppy that has already been neutered?
Poor little scrap...I am surprised that they found his plums to do the op....


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## CorvusCorax (27 January 2014)

Not so hypoallergenic then? Poor wee thing.


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## Alec Swan (27 January 2014)

I've not read all the posts on this thread,  so this may have been covered,  but just as with colts,  early gelding will often result in the animal growing on beyond its true potential.  I always find that over-sized horses,  dogs and people too,  those who are truly over their genetically dictated (right word?) height,  are never truly representative and tend to be rather awkward and not that well coordinated.  I know of a couple of greyhound dogs,  as an example,  and they were both cut VERY early,  they are absolute monsters,  but couldn't catch a cold.

Alec.


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## Always Henesy (27 January 2014)

Interesting Alec - thank you.

My 4 year old Labradoodle is absolutely huge....but was neutered at 12 months. I suppose I am just worried that having his little plums done so early may have a detrimental affect.


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## honeymum (29 January 2014)

A friend of mine works for the blue cross and they neuter/spay from 8 weeks if they can so they know the pups are OK to be rehomed and aren't disappearing for breeding purposes :-(


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## Copperpot (29 January 2014)

Sad that rescues have to do this as people can't be trusted not to breed dogs. I had my jrt done at 12 months and wished I had waited a bit longer tbh. I don't think I will get my Lakeland terrier done. He's is only 8 months so too early anyway but as of yet he hasn't started marking the house etc and all the other dogs are neutered so I may just leave him. 8 weeks is just ridiculously young to neuter a dog  it must be detrimental to their development in someway mentally and physically?


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## Naryafluffy (30 January 2014)

Always Henesy said:



			Just resurrecting this thread.....

Today I picked up an 8 week old Australian Labradoodle puppy from a local family.
They bought him last Friday....but it turns out that their son is severely allergic.
The breeder refused to take him back - hence a FB appeal and him coming to me.
I have all of his paperwork and I am astounded to read that he has been neutered already 
I have NEVER heard of an 8 week old puppy being neutered before? I have 3 other dogs and all were neutered at 6,10 & 14 months. I have absolutely NO intention of breeding - but to neuter this young seems barbaric to me.
Anyone else received such a young puppy that has already been neutered?
Poor little scrap...I am surprised that they found his plums to do the op....
		
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Sounds like a wonderful breeder, get's them neutered early, (this part I am assuming) charging a fortune a cross breed dog that they haven't even bothered to have the necessary tests done on the hair to confirm if it's an anti-allegry dog, and then won't take the pup back.
Joe Bloggs public needs educated in general about buying puppies and what questions should be getting asked of the breeder and what should be getting looked out for when visiting the puppies.
Just wondering with the comment about finding his plums to do the op, it's a very good point, would this make the op more invasive as clearly they wouldn't have dropped??


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## Alec Swan (30 January 2014)

Always Henesy said:



			Interesting Alec - thank you.

My 4 year old Labradoodle is absolutely huge....but was neutered at 12 months. I suppose I am just worried that having his little plums done so early may have a detrimental affect.
		
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I've offered my views on canine neutering before,  and ad-nauseum so there's little point in repeating myself!

If a dog is to be castrated however,  then I would think that 12 months was quite soon enough.  My point about particularly early castration would really refer to puppies which would be pre-six months.  At the pre-three month stage,  regardless of my view of castration in general,  I believe this to be needlessly invasive and approaching abuse.  Dogs are growing at such a rate at this stage that to castrate before nine months would surely have a debilitating effect and I know that Aru is a qualified Vet,  and am wondering if she has an opinion.

Alec.


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## california dreaming (30 January 2014)

This is a very interesting thread.  I have come into contact with a couple of male dogs that were castrated at an early age.  Both were extremely immature for their age, as if they were mentally in a perpetual state of puppy hood. Sad to see actually.  

I think it is shameful that puppies that young are neutered.  I would never buy from a breeder that did this and I would never knowingly use a vet that performed such operations.


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