# Anyone tolerant enough to answer a pretty daft question?



## PoppyAnderson (4 October 2015)

Here goes! If a colt and a mare are turned out together, will he hound her relentlessly day and night? Whether she's in season or not. Would she ever have another peaceful moment or will it just be 'afternoon delight' morning, noon and night?


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## spacefaer (4 October 2015)

How old is the colt? Is he her son?

If he's young enough to be put in his place by the mare, then he'll soon learn to give her space.

If he is 2/3 yrs old or over, then unless you want a foal, then they can't go together.


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## crabbymare (4 October 2015)

yes they can go out together without the mare being hounded in fact the mare is often more likely to be the boss and put the colt in its place. but be aware that from the yearling year upwards they can cover the mare and she can get in foal so if you do not want an unwanted foal keep them apart. if its a foal thats being weaned then you can normally leave them with other mares until spring and be fairly sure you are safe but I prefer to wean into a boy group and make sure nothing will happen


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## The Fuzzy Furry (4 October 2015)

They can cover from a few months old, dont wait till a yearling to get cut or separate them.
A breeder friend had a 6 month old colt cover a yearling filly totally by accident when a tree brought down fencing between the  mares and the geldings  (where the colt was in the latter group), resulting in a quite horrid filly being born in September the following year.


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## PoppyAnderson (4 October 2015)

2.5 years old and no, not mother and son.


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## Tiddlypom (4 October 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			2.5 years old and no, not mother and son.
		
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Is the intention to breed?


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## crabbymare (4 October 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			2.5 years old and no, not mother and son.
		
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Then unless you want a foal no way would it be out with a mare especially at this time of year as many are  going through their transitional season which is quite strong and would have her teasing him like mad. plus having a mare out with a colt of that age can sometimes stop them transitioning and bring them into season so again the chance of having a foal is high


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## PoppyAnderson (4 October 2015)

The intention is to breed yes but I really just wondered if the mare in this scenario would be hounded.


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## tristar (4 October 2015)

my experience and observation is that the mare very often just runs, some will kick, but yes they might well be hounded, could you not let them get to know each other over ad electric fence, then cover the mare, then try turning out together, and only in a paddock that they are both familiar with.


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## twiggy2 (4 October 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			The intention is to breed yes but I really just wondered if the mare in this scenario would be hounded.
		
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depends on the mare and they gelding as they will not all behave the same. Not sure why you would take the risk though to be honest, if the gelding is worth breeding from why would you risk the mare kicking him if he hassles her. Also why risk a mare worth breeding from by letting her run with an inexperienced colt-a friends mare was buggered by a stallion she was running worth many years ago and had to be shot because of the damaged he caused to her. 
Also at 2.5 yrs old what has the colt done to prove himself to be worth breeding from?


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## crabbymare (4 October 2015)

aside from the points above. I certainly would not be letting him in with her until next year late spring as if he got her in foal now you would have a young foal having to deal with wintery weather which is not the best idea when you are breeding


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## Pinkvboots (4 October 2015)

Sorry but it's a really bad idea to put a 2.5 year old colt out with a mare and just let them get on with it they could both get seriously hurt, has the mare ever been mounted by a stallion? If not you should make sure the first time is supervised with people that know what they are doing, and if you are intent on breeding with the colt use him on a mare that has been covered before first, not all mares will let any stallion mount even in season so she could potentially kick the cr*p out of him and he could do her much damage if his not very polite, and by just chucking them out without knowing in my view is crazy.


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## EQUIDAE (5 October 2015)

I wouldn't call a 2 and a half year old a colt - he's sexually mature.


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## Equi (5 October 2015)

If the Colt is to breed from then you need to wait til next year and breed them correctly it is not correct to just throw them out together one or both will end up serious injured. He won't know what he is at and she will defend herself.


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## JanetGeorge (7 October 2015)

I brought a 2 year old colt (ex) home from hospital last week - he'd been gelded by full surgery as he had a retained testicle.  I turned him back out with his 2 year old mates (all geldings) as exercise would stop undue swelling.  That night he broke out, let all his mates out, and while they were creating havoc on the yard, he jumped in with 2 mares and foals.  He bonked the one mare all night!  She was more than happy!   The other mare wouldn't let him near her!  Mare has her 'morning after' treatment today. (Colts can remain fertile for up to 6 weeks after castration.)  The little bu**er is being kept in for now!

It would be totally BARMY to run him out with mares!  It takes a sensible, experienced stallion to run with mares.  (And you need to WANT them all in foal!)


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## PoppyAnderson (12 November 2015)

Ok, at the risk of being flamed, I thought I'd provide an update. So against (almost) everyone's advice, I flung them in together. I knew the risks and decided I'd do it anyway and live with the consequences. I knew she could run faster than him too! Well, someone on here mentioned that she might just run away and indeed she did. She panicked and legged it. They did 2 circuits of my 4.5 acre field before they both got worn out and stopped! It was then like a Mexican stand off for a while but eventually, they made friends. Fast forward a few weeks and they are both a bit cut and bruised but nothing serious and they adore each other. They have done the deed (I've even seen them at it, which is revolting to watch!!) but mostly they are just velcro'd to each other and graze happily side by side. So it's all worked out ok thankfully. So, hopefully, she's now in foal (maybe, maybe not) and I'm hoping for a 14.2 smoky black chunky monkey with a calm temorement and a cracking jump! I'll probably get a 13.2 grey cut n shut!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (12 November 2015)

OP, how bloody stupid IMHO :rolleyes3:
Not only risking damaging the mare by running her into the ground by the colt, you intend to try to produce a foal outside normal breeding cycles, hoping your mare has already taken, she will produce a foal in mid october - which will only 10 weeks later be classed as a yearling!!!
You totally beggar belief! :mad3:


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## PoppyAnderson (12 November 2015)

Here's a few gratuitous pics of the gruesome twosome. She's the coloured.


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## Tiddlypom (12 November 2015)

Idiotic .

You'd hope this was a troll thread but the OP's high post count indicates otherwise.


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## PoppyAnderson (12 November 2015)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			OP, how bloody stupid IMHO :rolleyes3:
Not only risking damaging the mare by running her into the ground by the colt, you intend to try to produce a foal outside normal breeding cycles, hoping your mare has already taken, she will produce a foal in mid october - which will only 10 weeks later be classed as a yearling!!!
You totally beggar belief! :mad3:
		
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The foal is for me, so what it's classed as is neither here nor there. 

I know my update will invite comments from people who have a different view but there we have it. I fully accept it may be perceived by some to have been an unwise decision but she absolutely wasn't and isn't being run into the ground and it has all turned out ok. By good fortune rather than anything else, I grant you but I decided to take the risk. Plenty of horses cover naturally and not everyone has to stage manage the whole thing. I'm updating only to provide a counter to all the horror stories of what can go wrong.


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## GemG (12 November 2015)

Oh dear...  A 'planned' winter foal. 

What is the point in asking for sensible advice from experienced breeders - then completely ignoring it.

Ours pasture covered naturally, but it was all still carefully considered with a very experienced stallion and mare and at the right time of year.


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## PoppyAnderson (12 November 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Idiotic .

You'd hope this was a troll thread but the OP's high post count indicates otherwise.
		
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Absolutely not a troll. Been on here for years. 

Out of genuine interest, do you think everyone who decides to go for natural breeding is idiotic? If so, why?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (12 November 2015)

But it IS a horror story! Why couldn't you wait till at least spring, to give the poor thing a good chance in life. Costs will be far less, foal would have a chance to grow in good conditions, not be possibly kept in a muddy field or having to be stabled for much of early life due to bad weather etc.

Only 'accidents' occur outside breeding season.

In all my time with horses, i have never ever heard of someone deliberately ignoring any advice to keep breeding stock apart, let alone trying to put a mare in foal in November!!!


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## PoppyAnderson (12 November 2015)

I accept that. I genuinely needed an input however and took all the comments into consideration. I thought long and hard about it before going ahead and yes, I did ignore most views but that doesn't mean I didn't appreciate the viewpoints.


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## PoppyAnderson (12 November 2015)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			But it IS a horror story! Why couldn't you wait till at least spring, to give the poor thing a good chance in life. Costs will be far less, foal would have a chance to grow in good conditions, not be possibly kept in a muddy field or having to be stabled for much of early life due to bad weather etc.

Only 'accidents' occur outside breeding season.

In all my time with horses, i have never ever heard of someone deliberately ignoring any advice to keep breeding stock apart, let alone trying to put a mare in foal in November!!!
		
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Costs are irrelevant and if I do get a foal, it will have the very best care and not be in a 'muddy field', as you describe it.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (12 November 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			I accept that. I genuinely needed an input however and took all the comments into consideration. I thought long and hard about it before going ahead and yes, I did ignore most views but that doesn't mean I didn't appreciate the viewpoints.
		
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But had you actually taken stock of what a potential mixed breeding FOAL might have to endure when being born into cold/wet/snowy weather?

Very selfish OP, you really disappoint me


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## PoppyAnderson (12 November 2015)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			But had you actually taken stock of what a potential mixed breeding FOAL might have to endure when being born into cold/wet/snowy weather?

Very selfish OP, you really disappoint me 

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Yes, I thought it through and the foal will only have to endure the very best care. I may end up being proved wrong but I honestly don't feel selfish.


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## Alec Swan (12 November 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Yes, I thought it through and the foal will only have to endure the very best care. I may end up being proved wrong but I honestly don't feel selfish.
		
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I'm really sorry Poppy,  but it isn't to do with being selfish,  but simple common sense.  Winter (or approaching that time) born foals are a nightmare.  The mare won't have the benefit of decent grass which she will most certainly need unless you are VERY experienced,  and in truth it doesn't sound as though you are,  the foal won't benefit from the summer sun,  or the available natural feed,  any attempts at upping her feed intake pre-foaling could lead to disaster,  as will by the sound of it,  your subsequent management of the mare.

In short Poppy,  I think that your plans are a recipe for disaster,  and I'd suggest that the only thing that you can hope for,  is that the mare fails to hold to the covering.  In your shoes,  I'd be praying! 

Good luck,  you're going to need it! 

Alec.


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## ester (12 November 2015)

Well unless the mare is hiding a cream gene a smokey black won't be occurring. 

Personally I don't understand what all the rush was to have them together in autumn.


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## Apercrumbie (12 November 2015)

Both look like nice horses and natural covering can be fine, I just don't understand why you're having a winter foal on purpose.  It's much harder for both mare and foal to thrive.  This set up could have worked just fine if you'd waited a few months!


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## Kathy657 (13 November 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			The intention is to breed yes but I really just wondered if the mare in this scenario would be hounded.
		
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The trouble is, if he covers her now you will end up with a foal born in October which isn't ideal.


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## Kathy657 (13 November 2015)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			OP, how bloody stupid IMHO :rolleyes3:
Not only risking damaging the mare by running her into the ground by the colt, you intend to try to produce a foal outside normal breeding cycles, hoping your mare has already taken, she will produce a foal in mid october - which will only 10 weeks later be classed as a yearling!!!
You totally beggar belief! :mad3:
		
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The OP is obviously an idiot and indiscriminate breeding like this is stupid.


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## Alec Swan (13 November 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Ok, at the risk of being flamed, &#8230;&#8230;... They have done the deed (I've even seen them at it, which is revolting to watch!!) but mostly &#8230;&#8230;.. !
		
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Someone with less in the way of consideration for the feelings of others may enquire if you're an ageing spinster.  I however,  shall resist the temptation!  

Would Natural Covering be considered by you to be 'natural'?  It isn't revolting and it's the route by which you and I arrived in to this world,  unless of course you arrived via 'Stork'! 

Alec.


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## Clodagh (13 November 2015)

OP, entirely up to you but why aim deliberately for a winter foal? you could have put them together next May and had a foal born when they are intended to be, with good grass and sun on their backs. I don't give a hoot about natural covering or not (not that I find sex offensive, as you appear to!) but why do you want a foal that can't be turned out? Neither parent seems to be bringing much to the gene pool. I despair, but wish your poor horses all the best, I suspect they will need it.


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## peaceandquiet1 (13 November 2015)

What a strange and sad thread. Ask for advice and do the opposite. I knew someone with a winter foal once and it had an awful time.


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## Peregrine Falcon (13 November 2015)

There's a very good reason why most foals are born in spring and THAT is natural.  I wish your mare luck.


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## Leo Walker (14 November 2015)

I really wanted to believe that this was a troll post, but clearly not  I'm stunned and horrified that anyone thinks its ok to try and breed an October foal. The weather has been very forgiving for a few years now, but that doesnt mean its always going to be. I really hope the mare hasnt caught.

And OP, you have zero chance of a smokey black or a grey. You have a very high chance of a hellish winter trying to manage your mare and her potential foal in winter though. 

Poor sods! And that goes for the mare, the colt and the potential foal


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## Leo Walker (14 November 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			I knew she could run faster than him too! Well, someone on here mentioned that she might just run away and indeed she did. She panicked and legged it. ... Fast forward a few weeks and they are both a bit cut and bruised but nothing serious and they adore each other
		
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Oh well thats alright then! She could run faster than him and all that happened is that she fled, got tired and gave up and they are only cut and bruised. When did it become ok to have your horses running in fear, and then only being cut and bruised?? I've worked on studs, nothing ended up cut and bruised!

I really wish someone would do something about backyard breeders. The old stallion licensing didnt do enough, but surely if DEFRA or someone put a huge charge on people owning an entire male horse over the age of 3yr old it would stop bloody morons like this!

I'm not in any shape or form a "fluffy bunny" but this just disgusts me!


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## Sandstone1 (14 November 2015)

How completely idiotic, selfish, stupid and completely irrational.
Why would you want a foal in winter?
Cold,wet weather. No grass. Ice and snow quite possibly too.
Poor mare, really hope she doesn't get in foal.
Op, you don't deserve a horse.


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## popsdosh (14 November 2015)

FGS you lot the OP was wrong to ask the question and then rubbish the answers. However what gives you all the right to be hollier than though. Surely if as some state it is unatural the mare wont get in foal as the OP is doing nothing to force the issue. I have personally known of several very late foals and all have done well ,they may struggle if left to their own devices but I am sure that is not the OPs intention. Horses will naturally breed all year round and I know mares who are easier to get in foal in the late autumn than spring summer. I could in fact mention but I wont several leading Hunter breeding youngstock that for some reason were always a little ahead of there age group for some reason.
As for bringing in political control as advocated by some!! dont get me started. I just hope that when the committee that tells me when I can and cannot breed my horses convene they also bring in a law that says anybody who wants to claim benefits has to be sterilised first!!! Now theres a plan!


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## popsdosh (14 November 2015)

FrankieCob said:



			I really wish someone would do something about backyard breeders. The old stallion licensing didnt do enough, but surely if DEFRA or someone put a huge charge on people owning an entire male horse over the age of 3yr old it would stop bloody morons like this!

I'm not in any shape or form a "fluffy bunny" but this just disgusts me!
		
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Why Stallions ! why not mares?? Maybe both?? LOL as its better than contemplating you are serious! It never worked in the past> whats more how would your wonderful plan stop this situation?


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## PoppyAnderson (14 November 2015)

Kathy657 said:



			The OP is obviously an idiot and indiscriminate breeding like this is stupid.
		
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You, of course, are entitled to think I'm an idiot and that is obviously the overarching view on here but the foal is for me, so will not be yet another unwanted horse.


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## PoppyAnderson (14 November 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Someone with less in the way of consideration for the feelings of others may enquire if you're an ageing spinster.  I however,  shall resist the temptation!  

Would Natural Covering be considered by you to be 'natural'?  It isn't revolting and it's the route by which you and I arrived in to this world,  unless of course you arrived via 'Stork'! 

Alec.
		
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Ageing spinster? Aside from the ridiculous sexist language, what a totally inaccurate assertion on your behalf. As for the revolting bit, sorry if I have to explain that my tongue was firmly in my cheek.


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## PoppyAnderson (14 November 2015)

Clodagh said:



			Neither parent seems to be bringing much to the gene pool. I despair, but wish your poor horses all the best, I suspect they will need it.
		
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You know nothing of my horses breeding. A couple of snapshots of the type I've put on here do not show conformation or indeed temprement.


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## PoppyAnderson (14 November 2015)

FrankieCob said:



			Poor sods! And that goes for the mare, the colt and the potential foal 

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Honestly, why? Poor sods? I get it (loud and clear) that other people would chose to do it entirely differently and I understand that but poor sods? My horses have never and will never be poor sods.


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## PoppyAnderson (14 November 2015)

FrankieCob said:



			Oh well thats alright then! She could run faster than him and all that happened is that she fled, got tired and gave up and they are only cut and bruised. When did it become ok to have your horses running in fear, and then only being cut and bruised?? I've worked on studs, nothing ended up cut and bruised!

I really wish someone would do something about backyard breeders. The old stallion licensing didnt do enough, but surely if DEFRA or someone put a huge charge on people owning an entire male horse over the age of 3yr old it would stop bloody morons like this!

I'm not in any shape or form a "fluffy bunny" but this just disgusts me!
		
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This can and does happen all the time when new horses are introduced to each other. Vets get called out all the time to treat bites, cuts and all manner of injuries that result from horses being turned out with each other. When I say cuts and bruises, they're not lacerated and covered in blood. Horses get into scrapes all the time and if they needed a vet, they'd have one there in a heartbeat.


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## Tiddlypom (14 November 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			My horses have never and will never be poor sods.
		
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Sadly, they are.

OP, please separate the two, and fingers crossed the mare hasn't taken. 

No one with an iota of knowledge plans a late autumn foal.


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## PoppyAnderson (14 November 2015)

selinas spirit said:



			Op, you don't deserve a horse.
		
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There are thousands of people who don't deserve to have animals in their care. I'm not one of them. My horses live free, natural lives with the very best of care. I'd be one of my horses any day of the week versus many other horses and what they're subjected to (over-rugging, unnatural feed regimes, confinement, incompetent riding, to names just a few practices).


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## PoppyAnderson (14 November 2015)

Despite getting absolutely flamed, as I knew I would and despite the personal insults (people feel strongly, I get it), I remain grateful for people's comments. Yes, it's obvious that breeding a foal is something new for me and perhaps I may learn the hard way and you can all say I told you so but I have a lifetime of experience with horses and they all have the best of care and should I end up with a foal, mare and foal will want for nothing. I posted on here to share my experiences and provide a different perspective, even if the only thing to be taken from this is don't do it like this idiot.


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## Sandstone1 (14 November 2015)

So, when this poor foal arrives it can look forward to a long cold winter. Not much grass for the mare or foal.
That's ok because it's natural.
If you want a foal why don't you take on a rescue youngster?
There are far too many unwanted horses and ponies so why are you bringing another in to the world?
However, as you asked for advise on here and then completely ignored it  I doubt very much you will take any notice what anyone says or thinks.


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## popsdosh (14 November 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Sadly, they are.

OP, please separate the two, and fingers crossed the mare hasn't taken. 

No one with an iota of knowledge plans a late autumn foal.
		
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Totally inaccurate another pompous member of the breeding Stazi !!!! 

Sorry if that sounds harsh but I feel a few of you are getting carried away ! Yes it can go wrong but not if you are prepared for it . Horses will breed at that time if left to their own devices for whatever reason and this poster is not intervening in nature to force it . Stop taking the moral high ground!


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## Tiddlypom (14 November 2015)

popsdosh said:



			. Horses will breed at that time if left to their own devices for whatever reason and this poster is not intervening in nature to force it . Stop taking the moral high ground!
		
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Um, the OP HAS intervened on nature by deliberately putting together a mare and colt in the off season. Am I pompous? No. Am I a realist? Yes.

There is plenty that can go wrong when breeding horses. Starting out by planning the foal's birth for the most favourable time of year for its best chances of survival and optimal growth are basic, IMHO.


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## AdorableAlice (14 November 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Totally inaccurate another pompous member of the breeding Stazi !!!! 

Sorry if that sounds harsh but I feel a few of you are getting carried away ! Yes it can go wrong but not if you are prepared for it . Horses will breed at that time if left to their own devices for whatever reason and this poster is not intervening in nature to force it . Stop taking the moral high ground!
		
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That is not entirely true though.  With nature in control the mare will have been covered as the weather and forage quality improves, ie  in Spring resulting in the foal to be born in early summer, the mare will then be covered again on a foaling heat therefore ensuring another foal being born into favourable conditions and with the best chance of survival.  The OP has intervened with nature by allowing a colt to cover a mare in the autumn.

If the mare holds, and lets hope nature intervenes and she does not hold, the resultant foal will be born in poor weather and will need extensive care and skill to be raised.  Lets hope the OP has the facilities and the knowledge to raise whatever is produced from the mating of two cobby ponies.

We should remember that flat bred TB foals are conceived early in the year to ensure a birthday as near to 1st January as possible.  I was fortunate enough to visit a state of the art stud and it was fascinating.  Even though nature is being tampered with in the TB breeding world, the resultant foals are born as the weather and grass is on the incline.

Good luck OP, you are going to need it.


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## popsdosh (14 November 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Um, the OP HAS intervened on nature by deliberately putting together a mare and colt in the off season. Am I pompous? No. Am I a realist? Yes.

There is plenty that can go wrong when breeding horses. Starting out by planning the foal's birth for the most favourable time of year for its best chances of survival and optimal growth are basic, IMHO.
		
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So is the OP forcing the colt to rape the mare! I think not! horses that come together at that time will breed it is not forcing against nature. In the wild yes the foal would have little chance however that is not the case. I suspect it will do a lot better than some that drop at what you assume is a natural time and are not looked after and we have all seen them. 
I tried to keep out of this but a few posters have really peed me off ,Why turn on the OP with personal attacks ,because thats what its become because you think you know better than them,and to me it doesnt sound like you do. Sadly over many years breeding god knows how many horses I have seen many disasters,never seen one with a foal born late in the year with an owner who knows what may be involved they invariably do very well.
Like I say advice is one thing but personal attacks on those you perceive as not listening is not acceptable!


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## Pinkvboots (14 November 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			This can and does happen all the time when new horses are introduced to each other. Vets get called out all the time to treat bites, cuts and all manner of injuries that result from horses being turned out with each other. When I say cuts and bruises, they're not lacerated and covered in blood. Horses get into scrapes all the time and if they needed a vet, they'd have one there in a heartbeat.
		
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yes you do get injury sometimes when horses are first turned out together but why take really silly risk with your own horses? If she is in foal do you have any experience of foaling? will you have the same attitude with that as well and just let her get on with it! not the sort of attitude I would associate with someone who cares for there horses really is it.


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## popsdosh (14 November 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			That is not entirely true though.  With nature in control the mare will have been covered as the weather and forage quality improves, ie  in Spring resulting in the foal to be born in early summer, the mare will then be covered again on a foaling heat therefore ensuring another foal being born into favourable conditions and with the best chance of survival.  The OP has intervened with nature by allowing a colt to cover a mare in the autumn.

If the mare holds, and lets hope nature intervenes and she does not hold, the resultant foal will be born in poor weather and will need extensive care and skill to be raised.  Lets hope the OP has the facilities and the knowledge to raise whatever is produced from the mating of two cobby ponies.

We should remember that flat bred TB foals are conceived early in the year to ensure a birthday as near to 1st January as possible.  I was fortunate enough to visit a state of the art stud and it was fascinating.  Even though nature is being tampered with in the TB breeding world, the resultant foals are born as the weather and grass is on the incline.

Good luck OP, you are going to need it.
		
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In an ideal world yes. However I have a very good mare  who has several successful offspring who will only conceive naturally in the late autumn . What do I do write her off!!!

Why is it OK for a TB to foal in January if not before ( They do) When there is even less grass than Oct. Wont comment on their methods as thats not natural.


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## AdorableAlice (14 November 2015)

popsdosh said:



			In an ideal world yes. However I have a very good mare  who has several successful offspring who will only conceive naturally in the late autumn . What do I do write her off!!!
		
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The difference is you are breeding from, hopefully, a proven mare and top class stallions.  I assume you have the facilities and knowledge to achieve success.  I would imagine you are breeding something very special to make you want to do the abnormal and the past progeny have proven themselves worthy of breeding again,

The OP has mated a nondescript pony mare to a cob colt.  The resultant foal will be a type that can be picked up for £40 at Beeston Market.  The cost and efforts involved in rearing a foal born in October will be significant.  Had the ponies been mated in May 2016 nature would provide all the foal would need.


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## popsdosh (14 November 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			The difference is you are breeding from, hopefully, a proven mare and top class stallions.  I assume you have the facilities and knowledge to achieve success.  I would imagine you are breeding something very special to make you want to do the abnormal and the past progeny have proven themselves worthy of breeding again,

The OP has mated a nondescript pony mare to a cob colt.  The resultant foal will be a type that can be picked up for £40 at Beeston Market.  The cost and efforts involved in rearing a foal born in October will be significant.  Had the ponies been mated in May 2016 nature would provide all the foal would need.
		
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I know I do agree with your views and would be totally with you but the OP has stated and you can only take their word for it that it is for themselves and I dont think they have gone into it totally blind to whats involved. See my point is I am not doing the abnormal with my mare its my only option as I will not resort to chemicals to interfere with nature with any of mine ! I think she wishes she could live in Australia!!!


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## PoppyAnderson (14 November 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			The difference is you are breeding from, hopefully, a proven mare and top class stallions.  I assume you have the facilities and knowledge to achieve success.  I would imagine you are breeding something very special to make you want to do the abnormal and the past progeny have proven themselves worthy of breeding again,

The OP has mated a nondescript pony mare to a cob colt.  The resultant foal will be a type that can be picked up for £40 at Beeston Market.  The cost and efforts involved in rearing a foal born in October will be significant.  Had the ponies been mated in May 2016 nature would provide all the foal would need.
		
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I've never posted on here about this horse, so you have no idea what or who he is but a nondescript cob colt he isn't. I have thought carefully about the type of foal I want and a steady cob around 14.3 ish is exactly what I want (I neither want nor need anything with a performance bone in its body). Both horses are exceptionally well put together with outstanding temperaments. Of course there are no guarantees but if I get the type of horse that I'm hoping for, they are like rocking horse poo.


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## ester (14 November 2015)

I think AA makes two important points 1) if natural the mare would have been covered several months ago, it already isn't natural as it has been delayed by humans. 
2) TB foals born in January- it is only a couple of months until spring, and grass etc. October is several more months away

OP I assume the colt is a highland?

As it is for yourself I still don't understand the rush/why you didn't wait until spring?


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## Clodagh (14 November 2015)

ester said:



			As it is for yourself I still don't understand the rush/why you didn't wait until spring?
		
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This exactly. I don't mind how you have done it, how you look after your horses is entirely up to you. If you choose to risk them by introducing them the way you did is also up to you, but why deliberately plan a winter foal? What is the long term plan for the colt (sire)?


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## popsdosh (14 November 2015)

ester said:



			I think AA makes two important points 1) if natural the mare would have been covered several months ago, it already isn't natural as it has been delayed by humans. 
2) TB foals born in January- it is only a couple of months until spring, and grass etc. October is several more months away

OP I assume the colt is a highland?

As it is for yourself I still don't understand the rush/why you didn't wait until spring?[/QUOT

That Why you can feed all sorts of things ie high quality haylage to make up for the grass.
I suppose it is OK to do the unatural things they do to TBs to foal in Dec Jan and if you dont think they foal in December your misguided. 
As I have said it would not be my choice however I would give a pony mare and foal more chance thjan a TB in similar circumstances
		
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## ester (14 November 2015)

As always just because other people do things (including the racing industry!) it doesn't make it a good idea. The racing industry does lots of things I wouldn't


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## Alec Swan (14 November 2015)

popsdosh said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. TBs to foal in Dec Jan and if you dont think they foal in December your misguided. &#8230;&#8230;..
		
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For TBs to race within their given years,  two and three yos for instance,  they need to be born as early in the year as possible.  January 1st would be ideal,  but as the gestation period is so unpredictable,  most racing stock are born from Feb onwards through to about April.  A December born foal would be 10 months (or so) younger and so behind others.  A January foal would be early,  but a December foal would be late,  if you follow me.

The other point is that within the racing industry the Stud Farms know exactly what they're doing and those who care for the new born (Jan-feb-march) foals are highly skilled and experienced.  I won't be alone in wondering if Poppy actually has any idea what she's doing,  and I suspect that there are others who share my doubts.  Sorry.

Alec.


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## Fools Motto (14 November 2015)

Is this a 'random story' thread to get us all hyped up? 
I can't fathom why you Poppy, would CHOOSE/WANT your mare covered now? (Along with everyone else). I'm all for natural covering, (it isn't disgusting, its natural), I can even get by on why you want a foal, but NOW? 
Sign of the times, everyone (including me) are too impatient and try to get things done, like yesterday, and assume it is for the best, or at least OK.
I think, OP, you're going to need a load of help, but I won't be surprised if you ask on here, and get the cold shoulder told-you-so treatment. I'm also hoping that your mare will not be in foal, and won't be until at least March, with a therefore Feb 2017 foal at the earliest.


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## popsdosh (15 November 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			For TBs to race within their given years,  two and three yos for instance,  they need to be born as early in the year as possible.  January 1st would be ideal,  but as the gestation period is so unpredictable,  most racing stock are born from Feb onwards through to about April.  A December born foal would be 10 months (or so) younger and so behind others.  A January foal would be early,  but a December foal would be late,  if you follow me.

The other point is that within the racing industry the Stud Farms know exactly what they're doing and those who care for the new born (Jan-feb-march) foals are highly skilled and experienced.  I won't be alone in wondering if Poppy actually has any idea what she's doing,  and I suspect that there are others who share my doubts.  Sorry.

Alec.
		
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Your missing the point Alec ! I dont know any DEC born foals that are actually registered in there birth year. When a foal for example is early (prior 1st jan) because of this variation in gestation they then become a very forward foal of their crop.Just another trick of the TB world. Precocious foals equal better return.


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## Equi (15 November 2015)

You are bloody ridiculous. Foals are not bred at this time of year to save the foal from being born into cold wet weather, so they have the best chance to survive outside and live as a normal horse. My foal is due july, which is MUCH later than i would like but is how things went. Why bother coming here and asking for advice if you don't bother to listen? Sorry but you will get no further help here.


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## Equi (15 November 2015)

popsdosh said:





ester said:



			I think AA makes two important points 1) if natural the mare would have been covered several months ago, it already isn't natural as it has been delayed by humans. 
2) TB foals born in January- it is only a couple of months until spring, and grass etc. October is several more months away

OP I assume the colt is a highland?

As it is for yourself I still don't understand the rush/why you didn't wait until spring?[/QUOT

That Why you can feed all sorts of things ie high quality haylage to make up for the grass.
I suppose it is OK to do the unatural things they do to TBs to foal in Dec Jan and if you dont think they foal in December your misguided. 
As I have said it would not be my choice however I would give a pony mare and foal more chance thjan a TB in similar circumstances
		
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TBs are artificially inseminated, put under artificial lights, given hormones etc.....they then live inside for years. very little about TB breeding is natural. You can NOT use it as an argument for this persons actions. A selfish action to breed a selfish foal.
		
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## PoppyAnderson (15 November 2015)

equi said:





popsdosh said:



			TBs are artificially inseminated, put under artificial lights, given hormones etc.....they then live inside for years. very little about TB breeding is natural. You can NOT use it as an argument for this persons actions. A selfish action to breed a selfish foal.
		
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You're using THIS as an argument to point out the error of what I've done?! Seriously? Like this is the optimum way? Hormones, Artificial everything. I'm not defending what I've done but let's not try and pass this other way off as 'better'.
		
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## PoppyAnderson (15 November 2015)

equi said:



			You are bloody ridiculous. Foals are not bred at this time of year to save the foal from being born into cold wet weather, so they have the best chance to survive outside and live as a normal horse. My foal is due july, which is MUCH later than i would like but is how things went. Why bother coming here and asking for advice if you don't bother to listen? Sorry but you will get no further help here.
		
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I think I've got that message loud and clear!


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## PoppyAnderson (15 November 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			i won't be alone in wondering if Poppy actually has any idea what she's doing,  and I suspect that there are others who share my doubts.  Sorry.

Alec.
		
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Why are you wondering? I've been quite open in the fact that this is all new to me but breeding aside, I know exactly what I'm doing. Many of you on this post may well doubt that but there we go.


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## ester (15 November 2015)

You've responded to everyone else but not answered my why now question.


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## popsdosh (15 November 2015)

Equi get it right as you obviously dont really know a lot about breeding . I never used my comment to justify what the OP is doing merely to show it does not have to be the disaster others say it will be!
I WOULD NOT DO IT OUT OF CHOICE IN THERE SITUATION . However that does not mean it cannot work if you realise the pit falls.

'There are none so blind as those that dont want to see' I think fits this post well and not so much on the OPs side.
I cannot work out quite why some of the post seem to have become pretty nasty towards the OP there is no need for it as I see it the OP asked the question which you answer however because they do something different the whole world comes down on them. If you dont like what their doing just comment and leave it ! Luckily its still their choice.


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## HashRouge (15 November 2015)

ester said:



			You've responded to everyone else but not answered my why now question.
		
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I suspect because the only plausible answer to that question is "I couldn't be bothered waiting".


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## popsdosh (15 November 2015)

May be all sorts of reasons ! they may feel its not anybody else's business also.


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## GemG (15 November 2015)

popsdosh said:



			May be all sorts of reasons ! they may feel its not anybody else's business also.
		
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Of course it is no one else's business, but putting it all on an open forum does invite comment and questions. 

I totally agree it's doable and a foal can and quite possibly will manage just fine at that time of year.  But I think all agree it's much nicer for all concerned to aim for a spring time birth.  Forget the foal/mare for a minute - it's also much less stressful for the owner too as there is less to worry about and deal with.  They have created a lot of unnecessary work and stress for themselves. (I know how stressed I was with an impending perfect spring time birth of a very experienced mare!). 

I was suprised and a bit dissapointed by the OP decision, and I would not do the same thing personally - but I admire their candidness if nothing else.


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## popsdosh (15 November 2015)

I have no issue with the comments but some of the posters got a bit aggressive towards the OP in my opinion.


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## PoppyAnderson (15 November 2015)

popsdosh said:



			I have no issue with the comments but some of the posters got a bit aggressive towards the OP in my opinion.
		
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I'm big n hard n ugly enough to cope with it but your support and viewpoint is nonetheless very much appreciated. I expected to be vilified for it and it says more about the people posting than it does about me if they wish to descend to the level of calling me a moron, an idiot and even an ageing spinster! I have chosen a course of action that many feel is unwise and ill-thought out and I totally understand that this may well be the case. To suggest that my horses are poor sods though is quite frankly ridiculous, as all my animals are anything but.


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## PoppyAnderson (15 November 2015)

HashRouge said:



			I suspect because the only plausible answer to that question is "I couldn't be bothered waiting".
		
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Not really - just a set of circumstances.


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## luckyoldme (15 November 2015)

popsdosh said:



			I have no issue with the comments but some of the posters got a bit aggressive towards the OP in my opinion.
		
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exatly this, i don t really understand why the op would nt wait till spring, but also believe that the potential foal, born into what sounds like a forever home in a natural non confined lifestyle has a the chance of a much better life than some of the very well bred horses who fail to make the grade and are passed on through various homes throughout their life time. 
Some of the more personal and presumptious (wrong spelling i know) replies on here are over the top in my opinion.


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## SpringArising (15 November 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Iexpected to be vilified for it and it says more about the people posting than it does about me if they wish to descend to the level of calling me a moron, an idiot and even an ageing spinster
		
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Absolutely. FWIW I think both of your horses are gorgeous.


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## PoppyAnderson (15 November 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Absolutely. FWIW I think both of your horses are gorgeous.
		
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Thank you, I appreciate that. They are both quite special, although I guess I'm bound to say that!

There are an abundance of youngsters for sale who are all expected to make 16hh plus and have terrific competition breeding. There are also many Welsh bred youngsters around. A sturdy 14.3 with a calm temprement is like gold dust and yet there is a huge market for this type (although to be clear, I am breeding this foal for me, as I've already said).


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## Leo Walker (15 November 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			A sturdy 14.3 with a calm temprement is like gold dust and yet there is a huge market for this type (although to be clear, I am breeding this foal for me, as I've already said).
		
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Give me £200 and about 10 minutes and I can find you 20+ weanlings, and probably have some change for you! They are not like gold dust. They are being abandoned and given away left, right and centre as no one wants them. 

There is a huge market for 8yr old +, 14.3hh +, sturdy, sound, bombproof, riding club all rounder. One that has been properly educated and brought on. These are indeed like gold dust. However if you have the skill to bring on something to that level, then I can get you 20 of them for literally pennies


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## Clodagh (15 November 2015)

OP - only out of curiosity, is the colt yours or have you borrowed him? I am interested as I wonder if you need to use him now as the plan is to have his nadgers off? Or is his long term plan to be run on as a stallion?


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## PoppyAnderson (15 November 2015)

FrankieCob said:



			Give me £200 and about 10 minutes and I can find you 20+ weanlings, and probably have some change for you! They are not like gold dust. They are being abandoned and given away left, right and centre as no one wants them. 

There is a huge market for 8yr old +, 14.3hh +, sturdy, sound, bombproof, riding club all rounder. One that has been properly educated and brought on. These are indeed like gold dust. However if you have the skill to bring on something to that level, then I can get you 20 of them for literally pennies
		
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Go on then. Give me some examples.


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## PoppyAnderson (15 November 2015)

Clodagh said:



			OP - only out of curiosity, is the colt yours or have you borrowed him? I am interested as I wonder if you need to use him now as the plan is to have his nadgers off? Or is his long term plan to be run on as a stallion?
		
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He's mine.


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## luckyoldme (15 November 2015)

op, i dont doubt for a minute your horses are well looked after, but just for the sake of getting a really big leg up from nature, why would nt it be better to wait until spring?


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## Meowy Catkin (15 November 2015)

TBs are artificially inseminated, put under artificial lights, given hormones etc.....they then live inside for years. very little about TB breeding is natural.
		
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I know this is on a slight tangent, but I had thought that race bred TB's had to be covered naturally. The TB stud (NH bred horses) opposite where I used to livery and where my own late TB was bred, had the pregnant mares, mares and foals and youngsters out in large peer groups, unrugged in all weather.


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## EQUIDAE (15 November 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Go on then. Give me some examples.
		
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I've just found 8 £200 and under within 5 miles of of me on preloved. Nationally there are hundreds. I bought a 2yo to make 14h2/15h for £160 delivered.

411 nationwide under £100.

And I've not even looked on Dragon Driving or any of the actually horsey sites.


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## ester (15 November 2015)

Faracat said:



			I know this is on a slight tangent, but I had thought that race bred TB's had to be covered naturally. The TB stud (NH bred horses) opposite where I used to livery and where my own late TB was bred, had the pregnant mares, mares and foals and youngsters out in large peer groups, unrugged in all weather.
		
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They do have to be covered naturally. I do think all the TB comments are a bit erroneous to this situation.


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## be positive (15 November 2015)

equi said:





popsdosh said:



			TBs are artificially inseminated, put under artificial lights, given hormones etc.....they then live inside for years. very little about TB breeding is natural. You can NOT use it as an argument for this persons actions. A selfish action to breed a selfish foal.
		
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I have to correct this point, tb's are NOT artificially inseminated it is not allowed in the tb breeding industry all coverings are "natural" although they may have some hormonal help. The mares usually live outside in a herd coming in only when required, the foals certainly spend their first 6 months out as much as possible coming in at weaning, if they go into training to race at 2 they will live in from an early age  but NH horses usually stay out until they are at least 3.

The OP I think everyone has put their opinions very clearly, before and since the two were put out together, she has convinced herself she is right, I just hope we have a kind winter so the mare and foal can thrive living out 24/7 as nature intended and not end up being stabled too much.
I have cared for foals born in winter, not a mistake but several that were stuck over here, due to export problems, for 6 months en route to the southern hemisphere with planned pregnancies so the foals arrived there in the spring, they ended up in stables more than outside in part due to constant wet weather, it was not ideal, foals should spend their first few months with sun on their backs, spring grass in the mares to provide the best milk and ideally another mare and foal to play with,  this foal will have none of the advantages nature provides naturally.
		
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## popsdosh (15 November 2015)

ester said:



			They do have to be covered naturally. I do think all the TB comments are a bit erroneous to this situation.
		
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No just an example that horses survive if they are born at this time .I never suggested the situation was the same.
For proof it does happen naturally see the thread close by


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## PoppyAnderson (15 November 2015)

be positive said:





equi said:



			The OP has convinced herself she is right.
		
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Not true at all and at no point have I tried to defend myself or say you're all wrong and I'm right. I will defend my knowledge and abilities however and the life my horses lead, as my care of them is second to none and the care that the mare and foal will receive will be the same. However, it's all academic now as the moment for not going ahead has passed.
		
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## PoppyAnderson (15 November 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			I've just found 8 £200 and under within 5 miles of of me on preloved. Nationally there are hundreds. I bought a 2yo to make 14h2/15h for £160 delivered.

411 nationwide under £100.

nd I've not even looked on Dragon Driving or any of the actually horsey sites.
		
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All without a % of Welsh breeding? Or without a 13.2 in their parentage? Or with known parentage? Or without blue eyes? Of decent quality with good confirmation? Honestly, I don't believe it because I've looked and looked. Of course there are a few but not many and certainly not hundreds. As for dragon driving, you're not really suggesting that that's a legitimate alternative?


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## EQUIDAE (15 November 2015)

U



PoppyAnderson said:



			All without a % of Welsh breeding? Or without a 13.2 in their parentage? Or with known parentage? Or without blue eyes? Of decent quality with good confirmation? Honestly, I don't believe it because I've looked and looked. Of course there are a few but not many and certainly not hundreds. As for dragon driving, you're not really suggesting that that's a legitimate alternative?
		
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Yes plenty... I'm suggesting that the type you are breeding comes up on dragon driving all the time - a none decsript coloured mare crossed with an unproven stallion.

Just for the record - your coloured mare may well throw a foal with wall eye. They tend to do that do that. I'm not sure you actually understand about breeding and genetics - you certainly won't get the smoky black you're hoping for.


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## Clodagh (15 November 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			All without a % of Welsh breeding? Or without a 13.2 in their parentage? Or with known parentage? Or without blue eyes? Of decent quality with good confirmation? Honestly, I don't believe it because I've looked and looked. Of course there are a few but not many and certainly not hundreds. As for dragon driving, you're not really suggesting that that's a legitimate alternative?
		
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Do you know your mares full breeding? 
I don't see why OP can't get a smokey black, highlands have the cream gene don't they? Genetics person out there?

I bred a 16hh mare to a 15.2 stallion, both with known breeding, and got a very hot 18hh gnu, so you camn't be sure you will get whay you count on. I hope you do though, I enjoyed breeding my foal, when I wasn't stressed. I haven't kept him though, too much for me and far too big.


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## Meowy Catkin (15 November 2015)

Highlands have the proper Dun gene. I think the confusion arises as what highland people call 'cream dun' actually seems to be dun+grey (I say seems as I haven't actually seen any DNA results and I am going on the appearance of the horse). If the breed had the Cream gene, you would get Dunskins and I haven't seen any evidence of this colour occurring in highlands, so feel that it is very unlikely that the breed has Cream. They do possibly have the silver gene, but I've only ever seen what looks like a silver highland, potentially misidentified as flaxen liver chestnut. As I've never seen a Red Dun Highland, I actually wonder if they are all black based with no chestnut in the breed?


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## AdorableAlice (15 November 2015)

equi said:





popsdosh said:



			TBs are artificially inseminated, put under artificial lights, given hormones etc.....they then live inside for years. very little about TB breeding is natural. You can NOT use it as an argument for this persons actions. A selfish action to breed a selfish foal.
		
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Totally incorrect.  TB's bred to race cannot be conceived via AI.
		
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## popsdosh (15 November 2015)

AdorableAlice said:





equi said:



			Totally incorrect.  TB's bred to race cannot be conceived via AI.
		
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Some how that looks like a comment from me and it wasnt! Dont know whats going on
		
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## PoppyAnderson (15 November 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			U

Yes plenty... I'm suggesting that the type you are breeding comes up on dragon driving all the time - a none decsript coloured mare crossed with an unproven stallion.

Just for the record - your coloured mare may well throw a foal with wall eye. They tend to do that do that. I'm not sure you actually understand about breeding and genetics - you certainly won't get the smoky black you're hoping for.
		
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I've said about 24 times that breeding is new to me. However, there is a very good chance that I'll get a smoky black.


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## PoppyAnderson (15 November 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			U

Yes plenty... I'm suggesting that the type you are breeding comes up on dragon driving all the time - a none decsript coloured mare crossed with an unproven stallion.
.
		
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Exactly, on dragon driving. That's not quite my aim and not what you first said either.


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## PoppyAnderson (15 November 2015)

Clodagh said:



			I bred a 16hh mare to a 15.2 stallion, both with known breeding, and got a very hot 18hh gnu, so you camn't be sure you will get whay you count on. I hope you do though, I enjoyed breeding my foal, when I wasn't stressed. I haven't kept him though, too much for me and far too big.
		
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Yep, I know I could get an unexpected throwback. Hopefully not though.


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## legend22 (15 November 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Idiotic .

You'd hope this was a troll thread but the OP's high post count indicates otherwise.
		
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Exactly this....


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## EQUIDAE (15 November 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			I've said about 24 times that breeding is new to me. However, there is a very good chance that I'll get a smoky black.
		
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There isn't


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## Meowy Catkin (15 November 2015)

The Cream gene would have to come from the mare IMO.


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## Alec Swan (15 November 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Yep, I know I could get an unexpected throwback. Hopefully not though.
		
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Breeding is a risky business,  as those of us who breed know to our occasional cost.  It would seem to many,  and those who do have experience,  that you are extending the boundaries of risk.  From your posts,  it would seem that you lack experience which is actually OK.  What isn't OK,  is that you ask for advice,  argue against it,  and that you seem to be in total disregard of the very well expressed and intentioned observations of others.  If you are so certain of your points,  then why did you ask for advice?  Was it advice or were you hoping for confirmation that your plans made sense?

Perhaps through your arguments which are really only theory based,  it may be that you have a better understanding of out-of-season breeding than others,  and that may be so,  because it's the only real bone of contention.

Hey-ho,  your horse and your choice,  but when you ask for opinions,  then that's what you'll end up with! 

Alec.


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## Leo Walker (15 November 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			I've just found 8 £200 and under within 5 miles of of me on preloved. Nationally there are hundreds. I bought a 2yo to make 14h2/15h for £160 delivered.

411 nationwide under £100.

And I've not even looked on Dragon Driving or any of the actually horsey sites.
		
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Exactly!



EQUIDAE said:



			U

Yes plenty... I'm suggesting that the type you are breeding comes up on dragon driving all the time - a none decsript coloured mare crossed with an unproven stallion.

Just for the record - your coloured mare may well throw a foal with wall eye. They tend to do that do that. I'm not sure you actually understand about breeding and genetics - you certainly won't get the smoky black you're hoping for.
		
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This! No one is saying they cant go on to make nice horses, but there are thousands of them and no one wants them!

If its so important that you get a 14.3hh cob with a good temperament, then you need to buy one, not breed one. There is absolutely no guarantee of what you will get when you breed. Other than it wont be smoky black!


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## PoppyAnderson (15 November 2015)

FrankieCob said:



			Exactly!
This! No one is saying they cant go on to make nice horses, but there are thousands of them and no one wants them! If its so important that you get a 14.3hh cob with a good temperament, then you need to buy one, not breed one. There is absolutely no guarantee of what you will get when you breed. Other than it wont be smoky black!
		
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A particular colour isn't critical for me but out of interest, why is a smoky black not possible?


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## Meowy Catkin (15 November 2015)

Smoky black is a cream dilution. The Highland has almost certainly not got cream (see my explanation above), so the mare needs to have cream for the foal to have a chance of inheriting cream. She is not a double dilute, so at the most she has one copy. However it can be really hard to tell a smoky black from a normal black just by looking at the horse. Were any of her parents cream dilutes?


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## Clodagh (15 November 2015)

Faracat said:



			The Cream gene would have to come from the mare IMO.
		
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That is very interesting, why is that? I know more about chicken genetics than horse and you do get sex linked colours with chickens, but I had no idea you did with horses.


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## Clodagh (15 November 2015)

Faracat said:



			Highlands have the proper Dun gene. I think the confusion arises as what highland people call 'cream dun' actually seems to be dun+grey (I say seems as I haven't actually seen any DNA results and I am going on the appearance of the horse). If the breed had the Cream gene, you would get Dunskins and I haven't seen any evidence of this colour occurring in highlands, so feel that it is very unlikely that the breed has Cream. They do possibly have the silver gene, but I've only ever seen what looks like a silver highland, potentially misidentified as flaxen liver chestnut. As I've never seen a Red Dun Highland, I actually wonder if they are all black based with no chestnut in the breed?
		
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Sorry, just found your first reply after replying to your second reply! That is interesting though. So, for a smokey black (non Welsh) you are looking at a connie or something buckskin/palomino/cremello?


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## Meowy Catkin (15 November 2015)

No, it's not sex linked (sorry to confuse you), in fact I haven't read about any sex-linked horse colours. What I mean is that with the two specific horses owned by the OP, the highland colt won't have cream. So if she wants a cream dilute foal, she'd better hope that the mare is actually a Smoky Black Tobiano and then she has a 50/50 chance of the mare passing cream onto the foal.


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## Meowy Catkin (15 November 2015)

Clodagh said:



			Sorry, just found your first reply after replying to your second reply! That is interesting though. So, for a smokey black (non Welsh) you are looking at a connie or something buckskin/palomino/cremello?
		
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Yes.  You want a black based foal with no agouti of any kind, plus one copy of Cream. Two copies would give you a Smoky Cream foal.

Smoky black isn't a striking colour as it isn't really visibly different from a normal black, so people generally only breed for it as part of a wider cream dilute programme. 

It's likely that the OP will get a Dun/grulla foal, possibly with tobiano too.


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## EQUIDAE (15 November 2015)

Here's one for you - I bred a foal. Palomino dam with a black sire - I had an even chance of getting any colour (except grey). What did I get? A boring bay...


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## Meowy Catkin (15 November 2015)

LOL.  It's funny how often people get the colour that they didn't really want, even when the % of getting it is actually quite low. I once saw a buckskin tobiano and a bay, produce a solid chestnut foal, it was a bit of a surprise for the owner because IIRC chestnut was quite far back on both pedigrees, but it was there hiding. I think they would have been happier if the foal was either palomino or tobiano, but it wasn't to be. 

I do love colour genetics, but if I bred, it would be one of my very last considerations when choosing a mare and stallion. Even then I would actually be more concerned with having black skin on the legs, rather than the fur colour, due to the issues with LV/photosensitivity that I've had. If I could have the magic cherry on the cake and have the colour that I like too, it would be chestnut every time. I do like an orange horse.


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## PoppyAnderson (15 November 2015)

Faracat said:



			LOL.  It's funny how often people get the colour that they didn't really want, even when the % of getting it is actually quite low. I once saw a buckskin tobiano and a bay, produce a solid chestnut foal, it was a bit of a surprise for the owner because IIRC chestnut was quite far back on both pedigrees, but it was there hiding. I think they would have been happier if the foal was either palomino or tobiano, but it wasn't to be. 

I do love colour genetics, but if I bred, it would be one of my very last considerations when choosing a mare and stallion. Even then I would actually be more concerned with having black skin on the legs, rather than the fur colour, due to the issues with LV/photosensitivity that I've had. If I could have the magic cherry on the cake and have the colour that I like too, it would be chestnut every time. I do like an orange horse. 

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Colour really isn't a critical factor but if I got a grullo or dun foal, I'd be over the moon.


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## ester (15 November 2015)

I think Faracat has cleared it up. Smokey black (black+cream) would just look like black, so it could be possible the mare might have a cream gene depending on her parentage. 

The highland carries dun. Black + dun = grullo. Because they often carry grey on top they can lead to some interesting colours in the meantime while they grey out. 
Depends on whether the parents are homozygous or heterozygous for black (red carrier) as to whether a foal would end up red or black base colour and then it just depends whether the dun and/or the tobiano gets passed on.


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## Alec Swan (15 November 2015)

Faracat said:



			Yes.  You want a black based foal with no agouti of any kind, plus one copy of Cream. Two copies would give you a Smoky Cream foal.

&#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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OK,  so how do I get one in avocado?

Alec.


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## Tiddlypom (15 November 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			OK,  so how do I get one in avocado?

Alec.
		
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So very 70's, Alec !


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## ycbm (15 November 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			OK,  so how do I get one in avocado?

Alec.
		
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## Leo Walker (15 November 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			OK,  so how do I get one in avocado?

Alec.
		
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paint it :lol:


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## Meowy Catkin (15 November 2015)

Or hair chalk.* 

*Probably works best on a white grey.


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## Leo Walker (15 November 2015)

Or I paint model horses as portraits for people. I've never done an avocado one, but I'm sure I could :lol:


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## rara007 (15 November 2015)

As an aside my (non cob) dragon driving project of last winter made it to this years HOYs (I sold him on VIA DD in the spring), the one of a few year back made it to the USA para international team and has represented them  I know you don't want a performance bone so that probably wouldn't interest you (they're both still relatively young obviously but both still going sound?) but I don't think DD needs condemning just yet  Perfectly decent animals go through their pages, including at least one of this years team GBR ponies.


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## Alec Swan (16 November 2015)

^^^^ I suppose rara007 that you've got the right thread?  Perhaps I've missed the point (yet again!). 

Alec.


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## popsdosh (16 November 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			^^^^ I suppose rara007 that you've got the right thread?  Perhaps I've missed the point (yet again!). 

Alec.
		
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Yes Alec rewind a bit and you will see the relevance!


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## ester (16 November 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			^^^^ I suppose rara007 that you've got the right thread?  Perhaps I've missed the point (yet again!). 

Alec.
		
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yup, do keep up Alec!


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## Alec Swan (19 November 2015)

PoppyAnderson,  as you started this thread 15 days ago,  and as scanning would reveal the presence of one or more embryos,  certainly within the next couple of days,  have you booked a competent vet to check whether there is in fact a pregnancy?  If the mare is in fact in foal,  and if there are twins present,  then the window of removal of one of them will very soon close on you.

Alec.


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## popsdosh (19 November 2015)

surely two would be a bonus ?


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## Tiddlypom (19 November 2015)

popsdosh said:



			surely two would be a bonus ?
		
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One in smokey black for the OP, and one in avocado for Alec might do nicely.


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## Alec Swan (19 November 2015)

Hang on a minute,  I was being serious,  for once! 

Alec.


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## Equi (19 November 2015)

If there were twins I doubt one would get pinched.


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## Bedlam (22 November 2015)

Haven't been on here for years and then come on and find this thread!

What's done is done and the OP as a new breeder needs non-judgmental advice now and going forwards.

Alec is spot on - OP I would suggest you get a vet out to scan your mare to check that there is just the one if indeed she is in foal. Twins are bad news for many reasons. 

If you're interested in colour genetics you can also take some hair from both sire and dam and have them colour tested to work out the probability of any colour:

https://animalgenetics.us/Equine/CCalculator1.asp

Main consideration though should be health of mare and possible foal, so I would have a vet out to scan sooner rather than later so you know what you're dealing with. If she isn't in foal it may be worth separating them until the spring. Where was the colt kept before you put them together?


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## Rollin (29 November 2015)

I have not been on this forum for ages and have not read ALL the posts.  

If you think your mare has been covered then DO get her scanned.  I lost a lovely filly foal in February, even though the mare had been scanned she aborted she has twins, missed on scan.  After the vet left we found the second foal in the straw, the size of a rabbit.  This was a real loss to us as it was a much wanted foal.

As far as running colts with mares, we ran our Shagya colt with his mother and CB mare, both in foal, till he was two.  He was no trouble at all.  Today he is 7 years of age, we can transport him with mares, he does endurance, SJ, covers in hand or can be run at liberty with a mare, he is stabled alongside mares/fillies and is no trouble at all.  I think his experience as a young horse taught him good manners.

I can run my CB stallion with one mare, the love of his life, but she keeps him in order.  I would not run him with any mare.  He is much more of a viking.

We don't cover at any time of year.  We always aim for April foals and as my mares have stayed in season well into November, we keep the boys and girls apart. We see a huge difference in CB foals born in France in April compared with summer foals born in the north of the UK.

Good luck.


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## Luci07 (2 December 2015)

I had a friend who had a winter foal. Foal was a BOGOF and a massive surprise to said new owner who arrived to find it in her box.  She did have an almighty time of it caring for a late winter foal and didn't find the experience one she would wish to repeat.


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## GemG (2 December 2015)

Luci07 said:



			I had a friend who had a winter foal. Foal was a BOGOF and a massive surprise to said new owner who arrived to find it in her box.  She did have an almighty time of it caring for a late winter foal and didn't find the experience one she would wish to repeat.
		
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Oh my goodness, can you imagine opening up your horses stable one morning to find  an unexpected foal!!!!! What a shock!


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## EQUIDAE (2 December 2015)

GemG said:



			Oh my goodness, can you imagine opening up your horses stable one morning to find  an unexpected foal!!!!! What a shock!
		
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Ha ha that happened to me - fed mare in the morning and she was eating as normal (wolfed her breakfast), came to let the dogs out at lunch and there was a foal! It was certainly a shock... mine was late January foal and it was pretty awful to deal with


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## Feival (5 December 2015)

Why could you not wait till spring? neither of your horses are anything special and you seem to have no clue what you are doing.


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