# Can you make a profit from running a livery yard?



## Eventer2017 (24 December 2018)

I am looking at a career move and wondering if it is possible to make a profit running a livery yard, as I hear so many people say you canâ€™t. My horse is currently on full livery and pretty much most of my salary is spent on him and my hobby anyway. It would be fantastic to work with horses but I wouldnâ€™t want to sacrifice owning and competing as I do at present.


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## EventingMum (24 December 2018)

It's very difficult, overheads are high, employing staff is not cheap with workplace pensions etc, insurance, health and safety, utilities, business rates, maintenance of premises and land are just a few considerations. Even if you intend to do much of the work yourself you will need cover when you are competing. If you don't own a property you will also have rental costs. On top of all this you need to think about your clients, remember for them it is a hobby, they may well be working full time so need access to their horses out with the normal working day plus you can't guarantee you won't get very demanding, awkward people who expect you to be at their beck and call 24/7. Many clients won't / can't afford to pay a realistic rate for the service they receive, when you consider it probably costs more to board a dog in kennels than most livery yards charge it brings it into perspective. On the plus side most of my liveries have been lovely and I've made many good friends through running a yard and it has allowed me to keep our own horses. However, it's very much a lifestyle business and our family life is mainly paid for by Mr EM's income not the yard.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (24 December 2018)

No, but if you owned the yard you might make a small living, enough to pay your food bills and fuel etc. Sorry.


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## paddi22 (24 December 2018)

I am friends with 3 good  livery yard owners, non of who make a proper profit. the most they do is subsidise their own horses.They all work their fingers to the bone as well, i don't know how they do it.


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## Wheels (24 December 2018)

Even if you make a profit it is unlikely to make you a living- there is a vast difference


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## tda (24 December 2018)

I think the key is it allows you to have the facilities and space to keep your own horse(s), but don't think there is much profit as such x


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## windand rain (24 December 2018)

Not a profit as such but pays the feed bill for mine


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## Cowpony (24 December 2018)

No. Next?!


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## be positive (24 December 2018)

I think it is difficult to do any more than cover costs especially if you are renting, I have my own yard and have had good years but they are normally because I have taken on a project or two and sold well, have had sales liveries in that sold quickly, I do a fairly low livery rate and take a % and also do some teaching to subsidise the livery income.


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## blitznbobs (24 December 2018)

Depends on how big you want to go...those who make a good living out of it have a lot of stables and a lot of land and run other events as well... 

We had a few diy liveries for a while but itâ€™s not a living wage and theyâ€™re more hassle than they are worth and we own the land


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## Hack4fun (24 December 2018)

A decent number of horses and a well run yard can make enough money to give you a salary even after rent, but it is not a route to riches. Remember that every livery space you occupy with your own horses is one less that can be earning you a living. My suggestion is to do the maths properly and calculate your costs and income. Remember is is a 365 day per year business, and almost 24 hours per day.


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## cbmcts (25 December 2018)

OH and I looked at doing this a few years back when a local large livery yard came on the market. Despite planning on selling both our houses we would have needed a large mortgage so when we did the sums we just couldn't make it work. This was with renting out all the spare buildings to businesses, setting up to sell feed and hay to other owners/yards that didn't have much storage, adding full, sales livery etc and hugely upping the number of horses on site by offering retirement livery (lots of land), using everything we could think of generate income. Also looked at adding beef or pigs to access farm subsidies and grants. Even so, one or both of us would still need a job off site as the yard income wouldn't have covered our living costs so to eat, drink, run a car or go on holiday etc we would have needed a salary from elsewhere.

The other thing was that if we had expanded the yard as planned the local residents would have gone barmy - they whinged regularly anyway when it was a small grass livery. As the lady who owned it had aged she had cut back because she owned it outright mainly because as houses were built around it, the residents kicked off about everything...they were very quick to forget that it had originally been a working farm with beef and dairy cattle and a stud. 

So I would say no that while you might make a profit, unless you actually owned the land free and clear you would struggle to make a living with just livery.


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## w1bbler (25 December 2018)

Our yo is also a cattle farmer. He regularly says the livery makes more money than his cattle. But he owns all the land, only does essential maintenance & it is very  diy, no services or hay/ bedding offered


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## paddi22 (25 December 2018)

w1bbler said:



			Our yo is also a cattle farmer. He regularly says the livery makes more money than his cattle. But he owns all the land, only does essential maintenance & it is very  diy, no services or hay/ bedding offered
		
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our neighbour does the same. they were sheep farmers and they changed  some of the fields over to grass livery and made more money. But they don't have stables/arena etc, its just a retirement livery really.


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## Leo Walker (25 December 2018)

I put together a business plan for a track livery system, with resting racehorses in the middle of the track, land left for hay, land sub let to cattle, and a XC hired out etc and it would have supported one person on a reasonable salary. The problem was it needed 2.5 to run it properly. If there had been accommodation then it would have worked but then again accommodation would have meant more costs. 

So yes it can work, but you need the right place, in the right location and the right set of circumstances and you must do your sums and do them again and again to make sure it adds up. And then be prepared to work blumming hard for small returns.


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## Cortez (25 December 2018)

Define "profit"......and also look up the word "slavery". I have run a livery yard (briefly): never again.


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## Eventer2017 (25 December 2018)

Eventer2017 said:



			I am looking at a career move and wondering if it is possible to make a profit running a livery yard, as I hear so many people say you canâ€™t. My horse is currently on full livery and pretty much most of my salary is spent on him and my hobby anyway. It would be fantastic to work with horses but I wouldnâ€™t want to sacrifice owning and competing as I do at present.
		
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## Eventer2017 (25 December 2018)

Thanks for everyoneâ€™s replies! Really helpful! By â€˜profitâ€™ I mean enough money left over each month to feed, stable and do some competitions with my horse; I wouldnâ€™t need a salary for myself as such ðŸ˜Š Iâ€™ve got lots to think about!


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## Leo Walker (25 December 2018)

Eventer2017 said:



			Thanks for everyoneâ€™s replies! Really helpful! By â€˜profitâ€™ I mean enough money left over each month to feed, stable and do some competitions with my horse; I wouldnâ€™t need a salary for myself as such ðŸ˜Š Iâ€™ve got lots to think about!
		
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So no salary means no holiday pay, no savings, no pension, nothing to run a car with or buy food with. Nothing for insurance incase you get hurt or permanently incapacitated. I think you need to have a long hard think about this as you seem terrifyingly naive and its not hard to get in an enormous financial muddle!


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## Eventer2017 (25 December 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			So no salary means no holiday pay, no savings, no pension, nothing to run a car with or buy food with. Nothing for insurance incase you get hurt or permanently incapacitated. I think you need to have a long hard think about this as you seem terrifyingly naive and its not hard to get in an enormous financial muddle!
		
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Correct - I have that covered separately ðŸ˜Š


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## joosie (25 December 2018)

In other words you already have a career and source of income & the livery yard would be a secondary income?


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## Eventer2017 (25 December 2018)

joosie said:



			In other words you already have a career and source of income & the livery yard would be a secondary income?
		
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I was wondering whether running a livery yard would bring me in say Â£500-Â£1000 per month to cover my own horses costs. I have heard some yards make a loss so was just trying to get a general idea of othersâ€™ experiences before producing a detailed Business Plan. I am married so I am not on one income ðŸ˜Š


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## case895 (25 December 2018)

In pure financial terms, use the Tesco test. Estimate the hours you would have to work and divide by the amount you would make. Compare the hourly rate to what Tescos pay to stack shelves.

Two of my friends run a yard and it just about breaks even, but means their horses are kept for free, plus facilities and grooms so they only have to wield a shavings fork on Christmas Day. The farm side of the business makes money, as they sell hay, straw (to themselves, liveries and others) and receive BPS.


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## Ceifer (25 December 2018)

I have run a livery yard that made a profit. Worked on one that made the owner a small fortune (it was a working livery yard though). But predominantly worked on those that barely scraped a profit. 

The biggest problem most had was that the owners expected the yard to not only make a profit but support x number of their own horses, provide an income for them and employ staff.
The worst one I had was a woman trying to run a yard and have the profit pay for her 15 horses! 

It is doable but you need a lot of things on your side.


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## Leo Walker (25 December 2018)

Eventer2017 said:



			I was wondering whether running a livery yard would bring me in say Â£500-Â£1000 per month to cover my own horses costs. I have heard some yards make a loss so was just trying to get a general idea of othersâ€™ experiences before producing a detailed Business Plan. I am married so I am not on one income ðŸ˜Š
		
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You can do that with the right set up, but you will be working full time and probably then some to do it. Which is why most people who dont own land go to work to earn money and keep the horses and finances separate


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## chocolategirl (25 December 2018)

EventingMum said:



			It's very difficult, overheads are high, employing staff is not cheap with workplace pensions etc, insurance, health and safety, utilities, business rates, maintenance of premises and land are just a few considerations. Even if you intend to do much of the work yourself you will need cover when you are competing. If you don't own a property you will also have rental costs. On top of all this you need to think about your clients, remember for them it is a hobby, they may well be working full time so need access to their horses out with the normal working day plus you can't guarantee you won't get very demanding, awkward people who expect you to be at their beck and call 24/7. Many clients won't / can't afford to pay a realistic rate for the service they receive, when you consider it probably costs more to board a dog in kennels than most livery yards charge it brings it into perspective. On the plus side most of my liveries have been lovely and I've made many good friends through running a yard and it has allowed me to keep our own horses. However, it's very much a lifestyle business and our family life is mainly paid for by Mr EM's income not the yard.
		
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Wow! Itâ€™s like someone went inside my head, read my thoughts and put them down in writing! ScaryðŸ˜³so, in a word NO! Very very difficult to make a living running a yard. Mine is DIY, we own so no rent etc, and as we make our own hay and straw, thatâ€™s the only reason we make anything at all. If youâ€™re doing it properly, like me, as in spend money improving facilities and maintenance, the figures just will not add up, trust me. Sorry if thatâ€™s not what you want to hear, but like this reply, what people are prepared to pay, just doesnâ€™t tally with how much it actually costs to provide.ðŸ˜


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## sport horse (25 December 2018)

w1bbler said:



			Our yo is also a cattle farmer. He regularly says the livery makes more money than his cattle. But he owns all the land, only does essential maintenance & it is very  diy, no services or hay/ bedding offered
		
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I think it may be that a farmer can diversify and run a livery yard and his land and buildings will still be classified as agricultural ie not subject to rates or need planning permission. That would make it a little easier to make a profit!


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## Sussexbythesea (26 December 2018)

From what Iâ€™ve seen you can make money but really you need your own mortgage free place and run a tight ship doing as much as you can yourself so you donâ€™t have to pay out wages etc. That will be the biggest cost to most businesses. 

I do think people donâ€™t always include the cost of the benefits they receive from just owning the property such as increase in value which may be just inflationary but improvements will also add value if they are the right ones. Also savings from not having to have their own horses on livery and travel to and from yard which can be significant. 

But itâ€™s still a lot of hard work and itâ€™s certainly not an easy option.


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## meleeka (26 December 2018)

I know someone who has a small yard of around 10 boxes. She doesnâ€™t have staff and only has full or part livery. Itâ€™s not cheap either but it is in a lovely location and she owns the land. I believe she does make a small living from it as well as keeping her own horses for free.


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## Theocat (26 December 2018)

Eventer2017 said:



			Thanks for everyoneâ€™s replies! Really helpful! By â€˜profitâ€™ I mean enough money left over each month to feed, stable and do some competitions with my horse; I wouldnâ€™t need a salary for myself as such ðŸ˜Š Iâ€™ve got lots to think about!
		
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Without knowing anything about you and forgive me for making some assumptions: I think you should have a very serious conversation with your other half. From what I gather from this thread, they cover almost all costs already, and you are really just funding your horse. You'd therefore like to have a crack at running a yard and use the profit to cover the horse costs.

Even if you do manage to generate enough profit to cover the same costs you are meeting at the moment, your life is going to change dramatically. You'll be working early mornings and doing late night checks every single day. You will struggle to get away for a week or a fortnight on holiday, or even to pop away for weekends. You will be working on bank holidays. You will be constantly on call to deal with other people's vet emergencies and disorganisation. If the yard is at home (which it needs to be so you're on hand) you will have other people all over your yard all day, every day.

Your OH needs to understand that you wouldn't just be swopping one job for another. It will take over both your lives and have a serious impact on your freedoms and activities. 

For your OH, it is probably not going to be a change for the better. And if they are funding everything else in the marriage, that could make you both unhappy. 

I am making some big assumptions here - but unstressed yard owners who have free time to do other things and manage to maintain successful personal lives are even more rare than yard owners who make a profit!


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## be positive (26 December 2018)

Eventer2017 said:



			I was wondering whether running a livery yard would bring me in say Â£500-Â£1000 per month to cover my own horses costs. I have heard some yards make a loss so was just trying to get a general idea of othersâ€™ experiences before producing a detailed Business Plan. I am married so I am not on one income ðŸ˜Š
		
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So if your OH is happy to support you in this idea and to cover all costs related to you and your home other than the horses/ competing you are at least in a reasonable starting position as long as his job is completely secure and he is prepared to back you financially as well as in a more practical way, he will not be seeing much of you as your hours will increase significantly.

Your business plan, like most, can easily paint a good picture but you need to be totally realistic about the outgoings and income, rent will be the main outgoing and most owners will want at least 2 months rent in advance, not too bad if you fill up quickly or take on a yard already up and running but it will drain away the 'profit' until you are established which could take 12 months if you are not offering something that is really required in the area.

Other more practical points, are you experienced enough to offer full livery, to handle possibly difficult horses, not to mention equally difficult to please owners, are you prepared to spend most of every day mucking out and trying to fit in riding your own after doing the liveries, you may be able to employ a freelancer but that will eat into the income unless the yard is big enough but taking on a bigger yard with staff is a bigger risk financially to start with, so plenty to think about before doing a business plan.

Other considerations, can you find a yard that is really close to where you live, is that yard really secure and will people be happy to livery somewhere that is not occupied by the owner, if you are not on site is the actual owner there as a form of security, there are so many things to consider when looking for a yard and the area you are in will have a bearing on what is going to sell your livery places , finding a yard to rent is possibly the easy part as it is often a more attractive prospect for the owner to rent out a whole yard than to run it themselves which says a lot really!

Best of luck if you go for it but have a fall back in place and be prepared to write off a fair amount of money if it doesn't work out within a sensible time frame.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (26 December 2018)

You won't make a fortune running a livery yard, unless you have an "add-on" such as offering schooling livery or are doing a bit of dealing as well as.

I'm a YO with room for just one DIY livery; we've been doing livery for 25 yrs now and haven't made a fortune at it yet!! We live on-site and I've got my own horses as well as the livery's.

One thing (obvious I know) that you WILL need is insurance to cover you or anyone using the yard, for public liability AND employers liability, and that's before you even open the gates, and it isn't cheap!. Last year we paid Â£500 for this, and that wasn't NFU which would have been one helluva lot more! So you'll need to factor that into the equation, plus the costs of land maintenance, fencing, etc. 

The fact that there is a livery does cover the cost of keeping my two horses, I don't employ any equine staff here, or offer any additional services.

The thing I would say is to be VERY very fussy. If you don't get the right vibes from either a person or a horse, then don't have them! Here, we live on-site so its important to get a nice peaceful atmosphere. In all the time we've been doing it, we've only ever had one really rotten egg and she didn't stay the month! Thank god. 

Go with your gut instinct: the livery I have now was a total stranger when they first contacted me, but there was something about them that just seemed "right"......... sometimes you just have to take a risk and it turns out OK! 

So no, you won't make a fortune, but over the years we've had some lovely people through the yard, and equally lovely horses. We've laughed together, cried together (through PTS events  ) and made lasting friendships both equine and human.


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## Ceifer (26 December 2018)

This is slightly changing the subject so sorry for thread hijacking. A few people have said not to do it and having done it myself I can see why. However if livery yards decline in the same way riding schools are dying out the industry/ horsecare in general is going to suffer.


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## Cortez (26 December 2018)

Ceifer said:



			This is slightly changing the subject so sorry for thread hijacking. A few people have said not to do it and having done it myself I can see why. However if livery yards decline in the same way riding schools are dying out the industry/ horsecare in general is going to suffer.
		
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If there is a need there will always be someone willing to fulfill it. The problem is that there really isn't an "industry", just a lot of amateurs perpetuating a rather ramshackle niche hobby. There needs to be a radical rethink on pricing for it to be possible to provide services to truly professional standards.


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## Ceifer (26 December 2018)

Cortez said:



			If there is a need there will always be someone willing to fulfill it. The problem is that there really isn't an "industry", just a lot of amateurs perpetuating a rather ramshackle niche hobby. There needs to be a radical rethink on pricing for it to be possible to provide services to truly professional standards.
		
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I agree 

I worry that it will just end up being people offering DIY and not willing to get involved with the care side of things. 

Pricing is always going to be a sore point for most people. Itâ€™s a fine line between making money yourself and pricing people out of being able to pay. 
Generally the people side of things is the hardest thing to deal with. The second yard I ran I had to almost have a different persona. I had to throw a livery off the first week I started for blatant theft. Standing up for myself whilst being shouted and sweared at and marching this woman off the yard made the other liveries see me in a different light. Taking no sh*t from the start really helps.


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## pippixox (26 December 2018)

Personally if you only need to make enough money cover your horse I would consider just getting a part time job in something you donâ€™t mind. Running livery to get the money is too much work. It will quickly take away any joy in horses!

My friend makes a small living to cover her horses being a freelance groom as she does things like holiday cover and earns an ok hourly wage. She is usually pretty busy and it works around her child. Husband earns the main wage.


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## blitznbobs (27 December 2018)

pippixox said:



			Personally if you only need to make enough money cover your horse I would consider just getting a part time job in something you donâ€™t mind. Running livery to get the money is too much work. It will quickly take away any joy in horses!

My friend makes a small living to cover her horses being a freelance groom as she does things like holiday cover and earns an ok hourly wage. She is usually pretty busy and it works around her child. Husband earns the main wage.
		
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Yes good freelance grooms are hard to find and certainly round here in high demand and the overheads are so much smaller


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## paddi22 (27 December 2018)

yeah its strange the way its going. there seems to be two types of livery developing where i live - really ramshackle diy set ups or else the really fancy expensive mega yards


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## flying_high (27 December 2018)

pippixox said:



			Personally if you only need to make enough money cover your horse I would consider just getting a part time job in something you donâ€™t mind. Running livery to get the money is too much work. It will quickly take away any joy in horses!

My friend makes a small living to cover her horses being a freelance groom as she does things like holiday cover and earns an ok hourly wage. She is usually pretty busy and it works around her child. Husband earns the main wage.
		
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Except running a yard would mean that you can make the rules and chose how you keep your horses. It makes renting premises possibly affordable. If you aren't enjoying any of your local livery options, I can see the attraction of being your own boss.


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## Pearlsasinger (27 December 2018)

flying_high said:



			Except running a yard would mean that you can make the rules and chose how you keep your horses. It makes renting premises possibly affordable. If you aren't enjoying any of your local livery options, I can see the attraction of being your own boss.
		
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But if you are renting a yard, you are still not really your own boss and may well have to follow the LO's rules.


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## Leo Walker (27 December 2018)

flying_high said:



			Except running a yard would mean that you can make the rules and chose how you keep your horses. It makes renting premises possibly affordable. If you aren't enjoying any of your local livery options, I can see the attraction of being your own boss.
		
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So rent a small yard for your own horses instead of working all hours keeping other peoples


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## flying_high (27 December 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			So rent a small yard for your own horses instead of working all hours keeping other peoples
		
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Often if you want facilities and an arena, it is cost prohibitive to rent a tiny yard for your own horses, but more viable for a yard of 8 or so horse, as the cost per horse drops.


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## Theocat (27 December 2018)

Ceifer said:



			Itâ€™s a fine line between making money yourself and pricing people out of being able to pay
		
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Agree - but it's staggering how many yard owners seem intent on destroying their health and sanity by knowingly running at a loss - or, at most, break even - because "people won't pay more". 

Far better to go and work half those hours doing something even at minimum wage, and enjoy your own horses again. Livery yards aren't a public service, but both yard owners and horse owners seem determined to behave as though they are!


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## tristar (27 December 2018)

keep the land for yourself, make your own hay, and use the grazing for your self, so your own cost very little,   make money in more interesting ways that leave most of your time for own horses, think hard before driving yourself into the ground with work by creating a monster that may not even allow free time at the weekends.


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## lannerch (27 December 2018)

I cannot believe my livery yard does not make decent money , it charges a fee that reflects the high standard of friendly care and facilities they provide and even though it is the dearest in the area is always full. But they are also the best in the area.

So in summary imo to make money you have to charge a professional fee, in order to do this you must offer as many facilities as possible and to be as large as possible . You must also offer a very high standard of care, which sets you apart from the rest. Good luck op .


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## imr (2 January 2019)

lannerch said:



			I cannot believe my livery yard does not make decent money , it charges a fee that reflects the high standard of friendly care and facilities they provide and even though it is the dearest in the area is always full. But they are also the best in the area.

So in summary imo to make money you have to charge a professional fee, in order to do this you must offer as many facilities as possible and to be as large as possible . You must also offer a very high standard of care, which sets you apart from the rest. Good luck op .
		
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A lot of sensible points here. If you are offering DIY you probably need a slightly different set up (more storage etc) than full livery, but for 5 day and 7 day livery you need good, reliable staff and to take into account pay and a sensible staff:horse ratio. Generally people will pay more for a big size arena, floodlights, nice stables etc so if you have these you can charge a bit more - on a 20 horse yard another Â£50 a month per horse means another Â£1000 of income per month which is a material amount of money in terms of making a living versus operating as a charity for liveries. Obviously a big size arena costs more to put in, but nice brick stables usually cost less to maintain than wooden ones. Size matters because of economies of scale but also because of staff numbers - what you don't want is just enough horses to mean you need an extra member of staff but not enough horses to keep that person busy and their costs covered. Having someone who works part time eg mornings or Saturdays may also help. Your business plan has to be realistic about the costs of everything including staff, electricity, bedding, feed, hay, tax, rates. If you are doing shavings, you need a clear limit on how many are included a week. You have to think about the area you are in and the going rate for livery, plus the level of demand and competitor businesses. Plus can you offer anything else that means you can leverage your client base - eg lessons, schooling etc etc.. You can have some great liveries and also some nightmares unfortunately.


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## ihatework (2 January 2019)

Imr post is very good.
Donâ€™t underestimate staffing - on a small yard that you plan to do mostly yourself, there is little profit and you will still need good cover for when you are off (and this is difficult to find - you need someone you donâ€™t need to supervise),
Go for a bigger yard and your overheads increase dramatically. Get your costings right and if you have a full and happy yard then you might earn a living. But itâ€™s competitive and cycles and loose a few liveries and having empty boxes will mean the overheads are unsustainable.
Staffing pure livery yards is difficult because itâ€™s a mind numbing dull job - predominantly shit shovelling and getting moaned at for making the wrong rug/feed choice or missing a spec of poo in the bed. Few perks to keep people in that type of job.

Then you get to DIY .... often (but not always) people are on DIY as they are managing on a budget. Often a budget that doesnâ€™t quite meet the level that will generate any form of profit.


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## BOWS28 (2 January 2019)

I'd love to say its possible but looking at the state the yard i am currently at is in... i'm not so sure. The previous proprietor had the welfare of the horses at the forefront of her mind (Which IMO is what matters) She was wealthy anyway, so a profit was not so much of a priority. No expenses on the horses was spared. She was a cow lol but still did a bloomin good job!! Current girl lives on site, works 6 days a week herself, staff on minimum wage and work until on their knees and quite frankly, there is nothing to show for it. The facilities are basic, poor school surfaces is a big bug bear of mine...
The car park is full of deep pot holes. Which she simply cannot afford to sort out.. No maintenance is every done around the place. If she suddenly gets out of her overdraft and gets an income she will be spending every penny fixing the place... Thank god i love the people (most) and my ponio is settled and happy!!


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## imr (2 January 2019)

QUOTE
Staffing pure livery yards is difficult because itâ€™s a mind numbing dull job - predominantly shit shovelling and getting moaned at for making the wrong rug/feed choice or missing a spec of poo in the bed. Few perks to keep people in that type of job.

This is a really good point. I am super fortunate to be at a really lovely yard run by a dressage rider - her staff are all great and we are lucky to have them - but I think in part that is because (a) some of the staff are part time helping to fund college etc and so for them it isn't a dead end and (b) some of the others are training for exams and/or getting to ride horses and learn and progress, go to shows etc, and so there is more to the job than endless poo picking/mucking out. I was briefly at another yard after the previous one I was at for several years closed and whilst it wasn't for me for several reasons, the YO struggled to recruit staff in part I think because all she could offer was full time job (because she was inflexible) and all there was was mucking out, feeding, turning out and bringing in and no prospect of anything else.


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