# Stallion Showcase GB



## no_no_nanette (16 January 2013)

Just seen the first photos that have gone up on the SSGB Facebook page, and there are some fabulous stallions coming to the SSGB this year.  I'm looking forward to seeing some of the eventing sires, with some very proven names like Uptons Deli Circus, but also new youngsters like the TB intermediate eventer Sula Blue, who I've been wanting to see for a while, Britannia's Mail, and the very pretty Buddenbrock stallion Craig. And there's a feast of showjumpers - a very nice Comeback stallion, VDL Silverstone, Lord Luis .... and they haven't started uploading the dressage stallions as yet.  But best of all we'll get to see the favourite RIDs, Avanti Amorous Archie and Balinmore Irish Rebel.  They stole the show last year!


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## eventrider23 (16 January 2013)

I can't wait!  We will be there with my friend's two boys El Thuder and Craig and are very much looking forward to showing them off and seeing everyone!

Soo looking forward to seeing Arko and the Whittaker stallions too!


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## Rollin (17 January 2013)

Where is the information for those of us who don't do facebook?


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## TheMule (17 January 2013)

It's a shame the event horses are all on Saturday as I work Sats


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## ritajennings (17 January 2013)

www.stallionshowcasegb.co.uk
Here rollin but I don't think they have listed stallions yet


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## Rollin (17 January 2013)

Thank you Rita.  There is a CBHS meeting this weekend I have written to Council again asking if we can get at least one CB stallion to the show.  Such a shame we always miss it.

My own lovely boy cannot be ridden because of an old injury otherwise I would love to send him.


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## eventrider23 (17 January 2013)

Rollin he could go in hand


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## ritajennings (18 January 2013)

Ditto eventrider you can take him in hand great crowd there


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## imafluffybunny (19 January 2013)

Would be lovely to see your boy there Rollin!


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## eatmyshorts (20 January 2013)

Amazing showcase of some seriously stunning animals. I agree re Balinmore Irish Rebel, I've had the honor of riding this fabulous horse, and apart from presence and conformation to die for, his manners are impeccable. If I had a mare, I definitely would!


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## no_no_nanette (20 January 2013)

eatmyshorts said:



			Amazing showcase of some seriously stunning animals. I agree re Balinmore Irish Rebel, I've had the honor of riding this fabulous horse, and apart from presence and conformation to die for, his manners are impeccable. If I had a mare, I definitely would!
		
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He really impressed last year, both he and Archie have such presence.  There are more photos going up all the time on the SSGB FB page, and the Woodlander boys are up now,  looking stunning.  Also a very cute pony stallion!

It would be great if Hartpury and the SSGB start to attract the size of audience that stallion shows regularly get in Germany and the Netherlands, where a lot of the spectators are not necessarily breeders but are just interested to see some of the best stallions being paraded, and are there to enjoy the show.  We have some stunning stallions in the UK now, many of them young and at the start of their careers, which makes it all the more exciting, but I do wish that the shows were more strongly featured in the media, and that equine magazines supported and promoted British breeding more actively.  I wonder whether H&H will be at the SSGB?


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## ritajennings (21 January 2013)

I can't agree more no no   these Stallion shows are not just for people looking to breed but a great chance for everyone to get up close and personal to stallions and so many stallion in one place at one time too good to miss.

The Stables are open to the public there is also a smashing restaurant open all day and evening and it is run by the Light family of the Brendon Stud tickets can be bought here.

http://www.stallionshowcasegb.co.uk/?page_id=167


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## ihatework (21 January 2013)

I'm planning on going on Saturday, shame I haven't got my music put together yet otherwise I'd would have taken the horse and done the music classes!


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## no_no_nanette (28 January 2013)

Really thrilled to see that Peppermill is going to be at Addington, have wanted to see him in person for ages, and the latest photos to go up on the SSGB FB page also have some cracking little pony stallions attending.  Rembrandt DDH is a stunner - would be interested to know if anyone has used him?


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## ihatework (28 January 2013)

They are taking their time to get the list of entries / timetable published !


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## eventrider23 (29 January 2013)

Well tbf the entries are listed on fb with an album of pics, it's just the exact times we're waiting on. I imagine if like previous years it will be younger stallions earlier in the day and older stallions following on.


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## sallyf (29 January 2013)

no_no_nanette said:



			Really thrilled to see that Peppermill is going to be at Addington, have wanted to see him in person for ages, and the latest photos to go up on the SSGB FB page also have some cracking little pony stallions attending.  Rembrandt DDH is a stunner - would be interested to know if anyone has used him?
		
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We foaled a Rembrandt foal last year and he was stunning.
Scored well at the futurity too despite not wanting to show his fabulous trot off on the day.
Inseminated another mare with his frozen semen too and in foal first time so fab fertility


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## no_no_nanette (29 January 2013)

sallyf said:



			We foaled a Rembrandt foal last year and he was stunning.
Scored well at the futurity too despite not wanting to show his fabulous trot off on the day.
Inseminated another mare with his frozen semen too and in foal first time so fab fertility
		
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Great to hear Sally, he does look a cracking little lad from his photos.  Looking forward to seeing him.  There seems to be a pretty long list of stallions attending judging from the FB page, and a very impressive rollcall of famous names, so maybe they are having a challenge fitting them all in!!  (And we had one of those at the Futurity, a little star by Caretino Glory who will show off for all she's worth in the field, but didn't really want to demonstrate her flashy trot at the Futurity.  Very frustrating!)


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## cazzy (29 January 2013)

Full list will be on website tomorrow with timings (hopefully) - still taking phone calls from stallions owners wanting to bring their boys!


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## no_no_nanette (29 January 2013)

Good luck, an amazing amount of work for all of you, but know its going to be a great weekend!


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## Spiderman (29 January 2013)

Really sorry that we can't make this year, particularly with the dressage to music competition. Sure it will be a good weekend again.


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## Rollin (29 January 2013)

ritajennings said:



			I can't agree more no no   these Stallion shows are not just for people looking to breed but a great chance for everyone to get up close and personal to stallions and so many stallion in one place at one time too good to miss.

The Stables are open to the public there is also a smashing restaurant open all day and evening and it is run by the Light family of the Brendon Stud tickets can be bought here.

http://www.stallionshowcasegb.co.uk/?page_id=167



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I could not agree with you more.  How many posts do we see on this forum asking about this or that breed.  It is a great opportunity for horse lovers.  As you all know, I am heartbroken that we yet again WON'T  have a Cleveland Bay stallion in the parade.

The biggest annual salon in France is Equita Lyon.  There they have breed parades several times a day with a commentator explaining the history and aptitudes of each breed.  We watched Arabians, Friesans, Norman Cobs and TB's all paraded together is the same arena.

Of course this being France it is possible to sit down and enjoy a three course meal with wine while you watch.  (smiley face)


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## no_no_nanette (29 January 2013)

Not quite to French standards, but Addington does have a restaurant which we enjoyed last year!


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## no_no_nanette (30 January 2013)

Just seen that the gorgeous Treliver Decanter has been added to the list, and I guess that he'll be appearing on the second (dressage) day.  For us eventing fans there's One More Tiger, another who I've been wanting to get to see for ages.  And some amazing names from John Whitaker's stallion stables, including Argento and Arko.  Its going to be a really fascinating couple of days


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## eventrider23 (30 January 2013)

Very much looking forward to the weekend and excited to see the last minute entries of Decanter as no_no_nanette says as well as Amoreux whose foals did incredibly well last year in the UK KWPN evaluations. Saw a KWPN report saying 3 of the top 10 were by him! Also really looking forward to seeing the pony stallion Rembrandt DDH who I've seen referred to as the 'mini Totilas'!


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## shirleyno2 (30 January 2013)

Timetable now up!


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## no_no_nanette (30 January 2013)

And what a timetable!  Just come from looking at the list of stallions and events for both days, and it's amazing.  I'd not realised that Dane Rawlins is running a masterclass on the Sunday, in addition to John Whitaker's on Saturday, and the entries for the loose jumping competition are very exciting indeed.  (Henk Minderman, the winner in 2012, gave a masterly display in how to train a young horse to go down the jumping lane quietly and calmly, whilst his handler stands watching with his arms folded in the middle of the arena!)


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## ritajennings (31 January 2013)

Link to time table 
http://www.stallionshowcasegb.co.uk/?page_id=31


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## ritajennings (1 February 2013)

and to silent auction telephone bids taken 
http://www.stallionshowcasegb.co.uk/?page_id=303


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## Maesfen (1 February 2013)

Hope you all have a fantastic time and you remember to get as many videos and pics as possible for those of us unable to join in the fun.


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## oldywoldy (2 February 2013)

Was there today impressed with fabrics van overis really jumped but small. Barrichello seriously jumped but was not an easy ride nice stamp.  Disappointed with Craig jump unimpressive and not at all careful but very pretty!  Honour cruise jumped but would love to know why he has only ever done one event as a 7 year old would have thought oli would have fast tracked him if he wanted to do the job.  Thought Brit mail was ok bit ordinary and did not move will be interesting to see him eventing this season well produced by Lucinda but to be expected. Loved the Arko trio Arko himself plus aristio and argento although they did not do a lot of jumping.  Interesting day not that many people there which was sad as v well organised event.


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## chrissie1 (3 February 2013)

I had high hopes of Brit Mail at Hartpury but my views were exactly the same, he was kind in the box etc but lacked that Wow factor under saddle, time will tell but I really have to be instantly taken with a stallion, then look more closely and then decide from there.

Am going today with the sole intention of seeing Supertramp but prepared to be swayed by something else, I'm interested in Decanter too and a buckskin would be nice...but not guaranteed of course!


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## woodlander (3 February 2013)

Thanks to all at SSGB today......really lovely friendly team to support all of us and the commentators did a great job. I nearly fainted when I heard all those German names so well pronounced. Congrats to you and your team, Shirley. 

Very pleased with our boys who are sooooooo young, and met some lovely new people over the Bucks Fizz.


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## Klaus (3 February 2013)

My friend and I be the only people who did not enjoy Addington!!
We are here from Belgium visiting friends and we breed and jump horses there, thought it would be interestings.
We were sat with a very wonderful crowd of people, who seemed very misunderstanding of the marking for the jumping of the young horses.
The horses did not get marked as they do in our country or France.
We were leaving and heard one of the judges,(my friend told me he was owner of show) talking with someone saying that no one in the crowd new anything of horses and should not be there!! we left, it is shame, we have been to jumping shows and seen good young horses that are as good or better than we have abroad.

We were not happy to hear we know nothing and listening to the people with us they were very knowing and had big love of horses.
We ask you come to our country and we show you good jumping and how we mark the jumping and we will not insult you


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## HBM1 (3 February 2013)

I cannot even imagine someone saying that..especially as many in the audience are also breeders. Sorry..just do not believe it.


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## eventrider23 (3 February 2013)

I would be shocked to hear ANY of the organisers or judges say such things about the audience at the loose jumping so that is not something I would readily believe whatsoever as they are nothing if not professionals.  Also the 'owners' of the show are women and so there wouldn't have been a man who 'owned' it say anything like that.


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## avthechav (3 February 2013)

oldywoldy said:



			Was there today impressed with fabrics van overis really jumped but small. Barrichello seriously jumped but was not an easy ride nice stamp.  Disappointed with Craig jump unimpressive and not at all careful but very pretty!  Honour cruise jumped but would love to know why he has only ever done one event as a 7 year old would have thought oli would have fast tracked him if he wanted to do the job.  Thought Brit mail was ok bit ordinary and did not move will be interesting to see him eventing this season well produced by Lucinda but to be expected. Loved the Arko trio Arko himself plus aristio and argento although they did not do a lot of jumping.  Interesting day not that many people there which was sad as v well organised event.
		
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Agreed, was very surprised by Brit mail.  I loved Lord Luis and thought Ramiro B and progeny sparkled.  Arko trio were cleverly presented and all just oozed quality.  What was everyone's opinion of Pepper mill?  I havent been to a stallion showcase before but given Pepper mill's record I was surprised by his presentation.  On a seperate note has Pepper mill been retired from competition now or is he still recovering from injury?


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## stoneybroke (3 February 2013)

eventrider23 said:



			I would be shocked to hear ANY of the organisers or judges say such things about the audience at the loose jumping so that is not something I would readily believe whatsoever as they are nothing if not professionals.  Also the 'owners' of the show are women and so there wouldn't have been a man who 'owned' it say anything like that.
		
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Hmmm thinking it's quite possible from the man that leases and runs the venue.....quite opinionated. I am sure it has nothing to do with the event organisers


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## floradora (4 February 2013)

Unfortunately couldn't make it to Addington due to illness. Looking forward to hearing everybodys views on the stallions. Why ??? does the thread get ruined already?  If you have issues with either the organisers or the venue then discuss it with them. Ridiculous 'wind up' posts on public forums are not the way forward, sad to read your pathetic post, Klaus.


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## no_no_nanette (4 February 2013)

floradora said:



			Unfortunately couldn't make it to Addington due to illness. Looking forward to hearing everybodys views on the stallions. Why ??? does the thread get ruined already?  If you have issues with either the organisers or the venue then discuss it with them. Ridiculous 'wind up' posts on public forums are not the way forward, sad to read your pathetic post, Klaus.
		
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I think that it could be significant that it's a first post from this contributor, which points to a wind-up.  Agree with you floradora, sad and silly, and inaccurate.

Actually it was a fabulous weekend, the best SSGB yet, and feedback from Lynne Crowden underlines what a friendly and welcoming atmosphere there was at this event, not to speak of many fantastic stallions.  The sight of the great Arko with his two stallion sons all together in the arena was memorable, as were the John Whitaker demo and Dane Rawlins masterclass.  The exciting thing about the two days is how many very impressive young stallions are beginning to come through now, not least the Woodlander boys, and Brendon Stud's hugely impressive Clintissimo stallion, to mention just a few.  It was also so good to see the two RID stallions and stunning pony stallions at the event, underlining the variety of talent that we have in the UK.  I'm looking forward to 2014 already, and may the two stallion shows that are really getting established at Hartpury and Addington go from strength to strength without being criticised and carped at.  Its time that we all worked together to promote the talent that we have in this country, and stopped allowing a few divisive voices to damage that unity.


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## levantosh (4 February 2013)

I hope everyone don't mind I just wanted to start a new thread on the stallion showcase as the other thread has 4 pages and the stallion opinions start on that page. 
I didn't go but am interested in everyones opinions on the stallions who attended (good and bad points) but hopefully un-wanted comments won't be posted


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## Pippin79 (4 February 2013)

avthechav said:



			Agreed, was very surprised by Brit mail.  I loved Lord Luis and thought Ramiro B and progeny sparkled.  Arko trio were cleverly presented and all just oozed quality.  What was everyone's opinion of Pepper mill?  I havent been to a stallion showcase before but given Pepper mill's record I was surprised by his presentation.  On a seperate note has Pepper mill been retired from competition now or is he still recovering from injury?
		
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Pretty sure Peppermill is now retired.  He was working beautifully in the collecting ring that morning but I think he went into the main ring, saw the jumps and was a little tensed up.  It's hard to know how to present the former superstar showjumpers and do them justice if they're not still jumping.  I think the way they presented Ramiro B works best, in hand with a video showing them jumping in their heyday so to speak.  My favourite of the younger horses was definitely Barrichello, he did look as though he could be a little sharp but an out and out jumper and very impressive over a fence.  Was also very friendly in the box and enjoying all the attention.


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## eventrider23 (4 February 2013)

I went with a friend who took her two stallions Craig and El Thuder.  It was a big weekend for her as Craig has never been to a 'stay away' party before farless been in an arena like that with the announcers, music, etc.  and she was very nervous to say the least as having injured herself earlier in the week she had had to get a substitute rider on both boys.  All in all though it was a huge success with Craig loving his adoring public, just being a bit shell shocked and tense on the Sunday as I think with the new lack of SJ's in the arena which he has seen the day before he found it a bit 'scary' but we were very pleased overall with how they went and looking forward to next year.

My favourites of the weekend would have to be getting to watch Arko parade with his sons Argento and Aristio on Saturday as well as falling in love with the 12.2 pony stallion Trefiw Markus.  On Sunday, highlights for me would have to undoubtedly be watching the STUNNING mini-Totilas pony Rembrandt DDH as well as the breathtaking Treliver Decanter and in the stables watching the fabulous bromance that started between Avanti Amorous Archie and H Tobago, who spent most of their ime with noses stuck through the gap at the back of their stables licking each other adoringly!


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## Sportznight (4 February 2013)

OP - if you change your settings, you'll find it's only on 2 pages


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## levantosh (4 February 2013)

Sportznight thats to technical for me


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## no_no_nanette (4 February 2013)

These are, of course very individual opinions : but standouts for me were, as always, Caretino Glory - I just think that horse has such presence and showed himself to be incredibly quick to learn during Dane Rawlins' masterclass; the Trakhener stallion Craig, who has near perfect conformation, beautiful frame and very pretty head, showed himself to be superbly willing and rideable, and from the photos that we saw of his first small crop of foals looks like he would have a very strong refining influence on any mare.

Cambrio van Overis Z is very like his sire Clintissimo, and although he is not yet three, the power already evident through his loins and hindquarters was very impressive indeed.  He looked to me like a superstar in the making.

The two older stallions shown in-hand by Harthill Stud were both in the peak of health and fitness, Carousel (sire of Carousel Quest) and Ramiro B, and both on their progeny record and their appearance in the arena really appeal as event sires.  Carousel is a more traditional type of Holsteiner, with more bone and a stronger frame than you see in some of the modern examples of the breed, but his youngstock seem to be very blood.

Another stallion who was new for this year was Sula Blue, again a nice one for event breeding, and a lovely traditional type of NH TB.  Very calm and easy, a credit to his temperament, as his rider had apparently only met him ten minutes before they went into the ring.

Arko - what can you say?  He really is stunning in person, and the record of his progeny is amazing.

I'd agree with eventrider that the pony stallion Rembrandt was outstanding, wonderful paces and presence; and Treliver Decanter outshone any photo that I have seen of him - loved his movement and softness in the hand, he looked as though he was an absolute pleasure to ride.


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## chrissie1 (4 February 2013)

I didn't get there until late morning, the ones I wanted to see all being later in the day. I loved Caretino Glory last year and  he went so well in the Masterclass, did nothing wrong,  a strong contender.

I wanted to see Supertramp, but am now a bit unsure as he was led into the warm up, with rider on top, and once free lost the plot a little and the rider did well not to be unseated to the side, nor to slide off backwards.

He was fine by the time I saw him at his actual time, but my mare will breed to what I use on her, so although she is very laidback I don't want to risk anything sparky.

Rembrant was outstanding and I wish he was 16.2.

Decanter.  I loved him, I've avoided using a coloured horse of any description but am seriously rethinking on that one having seen him in the flesh.


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## no_no_nanette (4 February 2013)

chrissie1 said:



			I didn't get there until late morning, the ones I wanted to see all being later in the day. I loved Caretino Glory last year and  he went so well in the Masterclass, did nothing wrong,  a strong contender.

I wanted to see Supertramp, but am now a bit unsure as he was led into the warm up, with rider on top, and once free lost the plot a little and the rider did well not to be unseated to the side, nor to slide off backwards.

He was fine by the time I saw him at his actual time, but my mare will breed to what I use on her, so although she is very laidback I don't want to risk anything sparky.

Rembrant was outstanding and I wish he was 16.2.

Decanter.  I loved him, I've avoided using a coloured horse of any description but am seriously rethinking on that one having seen him in the flesh.
		
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I think that I would be very seriously considering Decanter if I were looking to breed a dressage foal.  And I would guess that they are very saleable,especially if you were lucky enough to get a palomino or buckskin!


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## chrissie1 (4 February 2013)

Not really setting out to breed a dressage foal, my mare is by Monte Carlo so is bred to jump as much as anything, her dam was TB x Skippy.  So never going to breed the next Valegro!

Which is one reason that CG may suit as he has paces enough for most people to do dressage on and of course a phenomenal jump.  OTOH I believe that Decanter offspring are well able to leave the ground!

Her Don Ricoss foal had very good movement for dressage, her PP moves like a show horse/eventer, and this family tend to give you what you send them to.


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## sallyf (4 February 2013)

I certainly wouldnt rule decanter out as just being a dressage sire ,i have seen a very smart eventer by him (just cant remember whats its called ).
And didnt Dimaggio sire a Burghley young event horse winner to


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## eventrider23 (4 February 2013)

Decanter's dam show jumped so he certainly has it in him!  Has a 5 yr old son jumping Foxhunter I believe.


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## Stuart harvey (4 February 2013)

avthechav said:



			Agreed, was very surprised by Brit mail.  I loved Lord Luis and thought Ramiro B and progeny sparkled.  Arko trio were cleverly presented and all just oozed quality.  What was everyone's opinion of Pepper mill?  I havent been to a stallion showcase before but given Pepper mill's record I was surprised by his presentation.  On a seperate note has Pepper mill been retired from competition now or is he still recovering from injury?
		
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no_no_nanette said:



			I think that it could be significant that it's a first post from this contributor, which points to a wind-up.  Agree with you floradora, sad and silly, and inaccurate.

Actually it was a fabulous weekend, the best SSGB yet, and feedback from Lynne Crowden underlines what a friendly and welcoming atmosphere there was at this event, not to speak of many fantastic stallions.  The sight of the great Arko with his two stallion sons all together in the arena was memorable, as were the John Whitaker demo and Dane Rawlins masterclass.  The exciting thing about the two days is how many very impressive young stallions are beginning to come through now, not least the Woodlander boys, and Brendon Stud's hugely impressive Clintissimo stallion, to mention just a few.  It was also so good to see the two RID stallions and stunning pony stallions at the event, underlining the variety of talent that we have in the UK.  I'm looking forward to 2014 already, and may the two stallion shows that are really getting established at Hartpury and Addington go from strength to strength without being criticised and carped at.  Its time that we all worked together to promote the talent that we have in this country, and stopped allowing a few divisive voices to damage that unity.
		
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Not quite sure how to use this yet as just registered but here goes !
PEPPERMILL is officially retired from competition and is in my stables in Surrey as I'm writing this. He is hacked out and goes in the field every day. I work him sometimes and jump some small jumps just for his enjoyment. Hes sound and good to hack but not up to jumping at the top level anymore.There seemed no point in jumping him over small jumps at Addington .We all know he can jump the biggest jumps in the world !I worked him at Addington in the morning as I knew he would be fresh and he felt great. His last major outing was Munich where he won the grand prix with john whitaker 16 months ago. When i put his show bridle on and he went in the ring he was expecting to jump and cantered round like an excitable pony. Bit embarassing for me but he was expecting to jump and think he was disappointed ! His record in nations cups, grand Prixs and championships has been amazing and BECKY stones and I are very proud of his achievements at the very top of the sport. We have bred some very nice youngsters by him and we are looking forward to producing them when they are old enough. Hopefully some will live up to the expectations of Peppermill !!! 
Hope this clears up any questions about his retirement which both BECKY and I have found quite emotional .


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## Klaus (4 February 2013)

Hi 
I am sorry you do not believe my friend Klaus, my English is better than his and yes it was his first and last post on this forum. 
He does not lie, I heard the comments also, we only joined this forum as we are or were interested in in your breeding system in Britain.
By the comments we have received except for one we now think this man , not a woman was correct.
We are sorry that we were surprised and confused by these words, we think we have it right in our country and I am sure you will all be happy that we will not be coming here again or thinking Britain is a country you v
Can tell the truth.
We are sorry if we have offended.


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## delphipuppy (4 February 2013)

Here is a link to a picture of Decanters Frankie who is a 4/5 year old being competed by Sam Griffiths. I can't copy the picture but this is the link to the photographer on the photographers web site.

http://www.ultimate-images.co.uk/photocart/index.php?do=photocart&viewGallery=15086#image=535132


Here is Stan a Decanter 5 year old in a working hunter class







Here is Desi as a 4 year old at Addington, she is now 5 and doing Foxhunters


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## Klaus (4 February 2013)

Hi sorry I have another thing I have to say,
Why when you have such a stallion as Peppermill would you have concern about high spirits?   He has nothing to have to show he is a very wonderful stallion who we would be very happy to have in Belgium.   If you visit stallion shows at top breeders in Europe most of the best stallions are very important and like their audiences to see this. Especially the older stallions like to show they are still young in the heart. I remember Sandro at one of his last shows showing like three years old. I am sure Peppermill will be one of those legend stallions that will be in many top jumper pedigrees but he is a stallion who does not require to jump anymore.


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## eventrider23 (4 February 2013)

There is no point whatsoever in the likes of Peppermill, Arko, etc having to jump same as with the older in hand boys.  They have had their careers and proven themselves and all that will happen is that in their older days they might pop over a smaller fence with a rider who is not the one they jumped their big tracks on and end up disappointing people as it wasn't the breath taking display they would expect of them.  They have done their jobs and proven everything they need to - it is just nice to see them out and having fun still!


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## shirleyno2 (4 February 2013)

We need to see these progeny at SSGB!!! Next year we will offer a discount to any stallions bringing progeny with them!! DELPHIPUPPY!!!!!!
And Stuart, I'm sure Peppermill enjoyed his party and will have progeny out next year!!
There were plenty of superb stallions, that covered a wide range of mare's needs and the turnout and presentation on the whole improves year on year, young or old they can all act a prat for a couple of minutes sometimes, that last statement certainly includes one of mine this year!!! Silly horses don't read the rule book sometimes!!
Klaus, perhaps you could email your findings/quibbles to shirleyno2@hotmail.com


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## magic104 (4 February 2013)

I think the comments about Peppermill are fair based on what was seen.  He showed a development of the sternomandibular muscle? which would indicate he has a tendancy to go with a high head carriage.  This could be interpreted as a horse who is not the easiest when ridden.  Plenty of horses are great on the ground but are hot to ride.  The concerns therefore could be that his offspring may not be for the amater.  

Tim Price is known for his rudness, but I was not aware that he was near enough to any audience members to have overheard any of his comments.  

I thought it was a great show.  I am just not a fan of seeing babies under saddle, so was more then shocked to see 2010 born colts putting on a ridden display.  There are a number of reasons for feeling dismayed.  For one it puts out the message that this is ok to ride a rising 3yo & expect it to perform in this way.  It was the only blight of the day & it is also clear to me that it is endorsed by many professionals as no one seems to have batted an eye over it.   Well if this is the way forward for horse production, you can keep it.  Perhaps for the few that feel as I do it might be a good reason to buy foals/yearlings before anyone has the chance to damage them!    Really sorry to offend yet again, but I believe the horse has as much right to have it's time to grow & enjoy time out being a baby as most our human children do.   They should have long enough under saddle, being stabled etc without taking away their chance to be a horse.


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## avthechav (4 February 2013)

Stuart harvey said:



			Not quite sure how to use this yet as just registered but here goes !
PEPPERMILL is officially retired from competition and is in my stables in Surrey as I'm writing this. He is hacked out and goes in the field every day. I work him sometimes and jump some small jumps just for his enjoyment. Hes sound and good to hack but not up to jumping at the top level anymore.There seemed no point in jumping him over small jumps at Addington .We all know he can jump the biggest jumps in the world !I worked him at Addington in the morning as I knew he would be fresh and he felt great. His last major outing was Munich where he won the grand prix with john whitaker 16 months ago. When i put his show bridle on and he went in the ring he was expecting to jump and cantered round like an excitable pony. Bit embarassing for me but he was expecting to jump and think he was disappointed ! His record in nations cups, grand Prixs and championships has been amazing and BECKY stones and I are very proud of his achievements at the very top of the sport. We have bred some very nice youngsters by him and we are looking forward to producing them when they are old enough. Hopefully some will live up to the expectations of Peppermill !!! 
Hope this clears up any questions about his retirement which both BECKY and I have found quite emotional .
		
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Hi Stuart- Thanks for replying, as I said I have not been to a stallion show before and he looked dressed for jumping but understandably didn't which is where the confusion lies.  Certainly the horse, like Arko has nothing to prove re jumping, but I was confused to see him looking geared up for jumping and then not... it would have been really nice to see some of his youngstock in hand alongside him, but I guess in future once they are broken you can present them alongside Peppermill.  

In regards to his retirement I wish him a long and happy retirement as he has certainly earned it...it looks like he is really enjoying life and I love the fact that is not just the like of amatuer horses like my lovely Ginge, who are capable of warming up beautifully outside and then coming in as if they have never been in an arena in their life and it is the most exciting thing ever!! hehehe even Grand Prix horses are sent to try us sometimes .


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## delphipuppy (4 February 2013)

Shirley, didn't have time to get organised this year. Have some thoughts for next year, just have to ask their owners nicely


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## Stuart harvey (4 February 2013)

magic104 said:



			I think the comments about Peppermill are fair based on what was seen.  He showed a development of the sternomandibular muscle? which would indicate he has a tendancy to go with a high head carriage.  This could be interpreted as a horse who is not the easiest when ridden.  Plenty of horses are great on the ground but are hot to ride.  The concerns therefore could be that his offspring may not be for the amater.  

Tim Price is known for his rudness, but I was not aware that he was near enough to any audience members to have overheard any of his comments.  

I thought it was a great show.  I am just not a fan of seeing babies under saddle, so was more then shocked to see 2010 born colts putting on a ridden display.  There are a number of reasons for feeling dismayed.  For one it puts out the message that this is ok to ride a rising 3yo & expect it to perform in this way.  It was the only blight of the day & it is also clear to me that it is endorsed by many professionals as no one seems to have batted an eye over it.   Well if this is the way forward for horse production, you can keep it.  Perhaps for the few that feel as I do it might be a good reason to buy foals/yearlings before anyone has the chance to damage them!    Really sorry to offend yet again, but I believe the horse has as much right to have it's time to grow & enjoy time out being a baby as most our human children do.   They should have long enough under saddle, being stabled etc without taking away their chance to be a horse.
		
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Peppermills oldest offspring are 2 1/2 years old . Time will tell how they are to ride. We have one and he's in the field. Incidentally I rode peppermill from 4 year old until he went to john whitaker.the last show I competed him at he was 3rd in a 3 *** international Grand Prix. He was always easy in every respect, the only thing was controlling his unbelievable power,especially in combinations when he was young . There are many videos on YouTube and his website to judge him on, not 5 minutes in Addington.


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## avthechav (4 February 2013)

Stuart harvey said:



			Peppermills oldest offspring are 2 1/2 years old . Time will tell how they are to ride. We have one and he's in the field. Incidentally I rode peppermill from 4 year old until he went to john whitaker.the last show I competed him at he was 3rd in a 3 *** international Grand Prix. He was always easy in every respect, the only thing was controlling his unbelievable power,especially in combinations when he was young . There are many videos on YouTube and his website to judge him on, not 5 minutes in Addington.
		
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It will be nice to see how these progeny progress and I look forward to seeing them...(maybe in the flesh at next years SS?) I m sure that P is a lovely boy and he was certainly nice to chat to in the stables, and I am sure that his high spirits wouldnt make a difference to people choosing to use him with their mares as like you say, there is endless footage of his quality and his reputation needs no further proof.  However the beauty of the showcase is it is a chance to compare stallions against each other in a way that is not usually possible, and no 5 mins at Addington would not be used to based people opinions but this situation does make it valid to discuss the stallions and their respective merits for example in this thread....I dont think that anything detrimental has been said about P- in all honesty what is there to say?  The horse has had a phenomenal career and has done all connections proud- I am sure that he will have a fab retirement from top level comps and produce some fantastic offsping.


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## volatis (4 February 2013)

Myself and a friend who has recently returned from working at the leading sj yard in Germany,  went to watch on Saturday.  Very impressed with the Whitaker stallions,  especially Artistio. He was as good as what you would find in Germany.  Plenty of variety to suit breeders aims and budgets.
However I do agree with Klaus in a way. The loose jumping didn't showcase the young horses well enough. I love the fact the competition is being run but in my opinion the layout of the jumping lane didn't help and we felt the marking was generous for the standard we saw.
I know it's easy to do it with a big team of experienced ground staff and the preparation of the horses beforehand.  So I look forward to this competition growing and developing,  but the standard would not have been what any European visitors would be used to.
I definitely came away with some good ideas on British based stallions to use should I go down the breeding route again and look forward to it next year


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## eventrider23 (4 February 2013)

The difference between SSGB and European stallion shows/loose jumping is that it ISN'T the same as Germany. Why should we just copy how they do it over there??  We are a very different country in how we breed, raise and produce these horses so why should we copy the Germans?! The loose jumping is only in its second year and has many big things to come in future. Regardless of how the scores compared to German scoring, most will agree that the out and out right horses on the night were successful.


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## LilMissy (4 February 2013)

Um, just wondering why our British shows are being compared to the foreign ones, again?! 

Surely we can do our own thing and give it another couple of years it will be just as slick and professional but with our own standards in mind please!

I would have said that the handlers in some cases in the loose jumping need to have practised more but already the standard of handling was sooo much better than last year.  If anybody had noted the audience were quick to mutter about anything they thought might have been pushed a bit hard or possibly (even if accidently) flicked with the end of a lunge line.  British audiences dont like it! I think for only the second time this competition is a fantastic idea, well run and in general had some very happy looking horses. I was also really pleased to see so many young horses at the correct weight for thier age!! 

I commented re Hartpury that I was disappointed to see very young horses out and ridden and still stand by this. I would be just as happy to see them in hand and it does them NO injustice.  

Hartpury was good this year in the fact that they took comments on board and had stables open and stallions available for visitors.  The showcase again got it right with the atmosphere and facilities.  Surely we want to encourage more people into both venues and doing it the 'foreign way' I am positive will not do this!

I took a friend who adores horses with me this year, she has had no previous interest in breeding really (other than cooing over my foals!) but she had a great time. Especially at the showcase. She thought the masterclass/demos were fantastic and the demos by stallions and riders were great.  She really enjoyed herself and couldnt understand why such a fantastic horse show didnt have more people there.


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## shirleyno2 (4 February 2013)

LilMissy said:



			Um, just wondering why our British shows are being compared to the foreign ones, again?! 

Surely we can do our own thing and give it another couple of years it will be just as slick and professional but with our own standards in mind please!

I would have said that the handlers in some cases in the loose jumping need to have practised more but already the standard of handling was sooo much better than last year.  If anybody had noted the audience were quick to mutter about anything they thought might have been pushed a bit hard or possibly (even if accidently) flicked with the end of a lunge line.  British audiences dont like it! I think for only the second time this competition is a fantastic idea, well run and in general had some very happy looking horses. I was also really pleased to see so many young horses at the correct weight for thier age!! 

I commented re Hartpury that I was disappointed to see very young horses out and ridden and still stand by this. I would be just as happy to see them in hand and it does them NO injustice.  

Hartpury was good this year in the fact that they took comments on board and had stables open and stallions available for visitors.  The showcase again got it right with the atmosphere and facilities.  Surely we want to encourage more people into both venues and doing it the 'foreign way' I am positive will not do this!

I took a friend who adores horses with me this year, she has had no previous interest in breeding really (other than cooing over my foals!) but she had a great time. Especially at the showcase. She thought the masterclass/demos were fantastic and the demos by stallions and riders were great.  She really enjoyed herself and couldnt understand why such a fantastic horse show didnt have more people there.
		
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Well said!! And glad you enjoyed!
We are not the bleeding continent - and the British public are not the continent public. Two very different things. We will never please all of the people all of the time.
 Britain's are are out and out animal lovers, especially horses (and my dogs!!). I too personally believe in giving horses time to mature, that said EVERY horse is an Individual - I left 2 of my own ridden four year olds at home and took a 3 yr old in hand - My 4 year olds are just not ready, one is quite nervous and one is a giant and his brain is too far away from his feet to co-ordinate!! The 3 yr old however is Mr Chilled himself. 
Loose jumping is an art, one wrong move, whether it is too slow or too quick with the lunge-whip can be costly, I think of it as if you were riding to the fence, you see your stride and it's a long one - you put your leg on -use the lunge whip- or you are on a deep stride and need to sit quiet - no whip - but it's a double with an oxer out, so not too quiet or your horse will stop or go splat - a little crack of the whip in the middle of the double maybe.
Obviously my opinion only!!
The winning horse has a video on the SSGB fb page, he has his ears pricked and is jumping for fun, now I wasn't a judge but I'm guessing attitude is everything, as well as technique, scope and carefulness, yes you can imagine riding this horse round a big track in a couple of years time!!
ps. he did flying changes all by himself too!!!!


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## HBM1 (4 February 2013)

I just saw the video of one of the horses loose jumping and he is jumping for fun.  If I took my youngster for the loose jumping, this is how I would want him to be for one of his first outings, enjoying it and entertaining, but under no pressure.  I agree it isn't as you see continental shows and I think that is a good thing.  We have all seen youngsters at the European events who are apparently superb loose jumping as two or three year olds, but what happens to them after that?  They are over-produced to get them to look that mature and good at two years old so they can be used as stallions, but many do not go on to have a competition career at all.  I only want to see youngsters having fun at this age, not taking part in a very serious competition.


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## Truly (5 February 2013)

I'm a bit confused by some of the comments on here  ???

I came to see stallions...up close and personal!

Didn't want to see them from a distance with flashing light displays!

Also confused with comments about some being exhuberant?...why would that mean they would throw a sharp unridable foal ? Surely they are allowed to be excited?...it would be different if they showed a nappy dominant behaviour?...but excitement at the beginning of the year when many haven't been out to a party for a while.

Comments on Peppermill seem strange...as I saw he looked unhappy in his bit/contact?...wouldn't have thought 'Oh look at his head carriage, I won't use him!'
He and Arko have already proved themselves...it was just really nice to have them there and see them up close 

The loose jumping commentary could have been more informative and the scoring explained as to why they were awarded those scores...I came to the conclusion it was the technique and the approach and attitude...but it would have been nice to hear it instead of guessing.
Also I'm a bit bemused how (supposedly) one persons comments could condone the whole show?

I'm sure each year there will be improvements and more people attending....but I thought it was really good and very personable being in the stables with the stallions and owners. Loved the variety of stallions attending 

I'd much rather that than all the glitze and seeing them from a distance.
As I said 'I came to see the stallions'


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## koeffee (5 February 2013)

Well Said Shirley!!!


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## no_no_nanette (5 February 2013)

Truly said:



			I'm a bit confused by some of the comments on here  ???

I came to see stallions...up close and personal!

Didn't want to see them from a distance with flashing light displays!

Also confused with comments about some being exhuberant?...why would that mean they would throw a sharp unridable foal ? Surely they are allowed to be excited?...it would be different if they showed a nappy dominant behaviour?...but excitement at the beginning of the year when many haven't been out to a party for a while.

Comments on Peppermill seem strange...as I saw he looked unhappy in his bit/contact?...wouldn't have thought 'Oh look at his head carriage, I won't use him!'
He and Arko have already proved themselves...it was just really nice to have them there and see them up close 

The loose jumping commentary could have been more informative and the scoring explained as to why they were awarded those scores...I came to the conclusion it was the technique and the approach and attitude...but it would have been nice to hear it instead of guessing.
Also I'm a bit bemused how (supposedly) one persons comments could condone the whole show?

I'm sure each year there will be improvements and more people attending....but I thought it was really good and very personable being in the stables with the stallions and owners. Loved the variety of stallions attending 

I'd much rather that than all the glitze and seeing them from a distance.
As I said 'I came to see the stallions' 

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Couldn't agree more.  I've been to a number of stallion shows on the continent, and whilst it would be great for our showcases to attract the audiences that they get over there (which I'm sure will come with time), as you say there's an awful lot of glitz and disco music involved, and the horses seen from a distance, but very little "up close and personal". Many - not all - of the big commercial studs in Germany choose to produce for early maturity and have two-year-olds in the arena already under saddle and performing dressage routines ....  There's an article in H&H this week which just underlines how much stress advanced dressage training puts on the horses' ligaments, underlining the fact that many of these horses are bred and produced to perform as early as possible, and many will not have long competition careers.  I hope that we will find our own way of doing things in the UK which will involve a focus on the welfare of the horse, building robustness and soundness, and breeding and producing horses that are "built to last".  If that is what the UK breeding industry comes to be recognised for, as well as breeding horses that will perform at the highest levels, then all the better.  I think that the Light family and many other breeders in the UK are providing a standard that we should be encouraging and aspiring to.  (And PS I agree that it would have been interesting to have had some commentary/feedback on the loose jumping scoring .....  Maybe next year?)


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## cazzy (5 February 2013)

Thanks for feedback on the loose jumping people.
Next year we will announce the individual scores given for Scope, Technique, Athletiscm, Attitude and Overall.   Highest mark for each section was 20 giving a highest total score of 100.  
On the entry form we did request commentary notes - some owners completed this section and some did not.


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## shirleyno2 (5 February 2013)

Caz beat me to a reply!! Yes we can definitely announce the individual scores, I think one or two lost marks in the attitude section and lets face it the best jumper in the world is not going to be so good if he/she doesn't want to play ball. With half hundred weight of horse it's always easier when they are willing participants!!
Personally when I ask a horse to do something new, his answer should always be "ok lets give it a go" I don't like them so much when their answer is "make me"!! I hope that makes sense!!
Thanks for the feedback! Keep it coming


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## Rollin (5 February 2013)

LilMissy said:



			Um, just wondering why our British shows are being compared to the foreign ones, again?! 

Surely we can do our own thing and give it another couple of years it will be just as slick and professional but with our own standards in mind please!

I would have said that the handlers in some cases in the loose jumping need to have practised more but already the standard of handling was sooo much better than last year.  If anybody had noted the audience were quick to mutter about anything they thought might have been pushed a bit hard or possibly (even if accidently) flicked with the end of a lunge line.  British audiences dont like it! I think for only the second time this competition is a fantastic idea, well run and in general had some very happy looking horses. I was also really pleased to see so many young horses at the correct weight for thier age!! 

I commented re Hartpury that I was disappointed to see very young horses out and ridden and still stand by this. I would be just as happy to see them in hand and it does them NO injustice.  

Hartpury was good this year in the fact that they took comments on board and had stables open and stallions available for visitors.  The showcase again got it right with the atmosphere and facilities.  Surely we want to encourage more people into both venues and doing it the 'foreign way' I am positive will not do this!

I took a friend who adores horses with me this year, she has had no previous interest in breeding really (other than cooing over my foals!) but she had a great time. Especially at the showcase. She thought the masterclass/demos were fantastic and the demos by stallions and riders were great.  She really enjoyed herself and couldnt understand why such a fantastic horse show didnt have more people there.
		
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I am so pleased to read your comments on young horses.

We attended Equita Lyon in 2011 and watched the SF championships for THREE year olds.  They were loose jumped, shown in hand and then jumped with a rider. Ok not big fences but this is an October event so a May foal is still very much a baby.

It is a real problem for us.  We have a Shagya stallion approved at aged three (in hand) he has to prove performance by the time he is 6.  Sadly even in the UK where I have looked for SJ trainers, I am told I am not ambitious enough for him.  I don't want him jumping more than a metre this year - he is just five or competing against the clock.

The crazy thing is that endurance rules will protect him because young horses can only do 20kms at 4 years of age, possibly 30kms at the end of their fourth year and 40km at 5,  Timings are specified too.

The problem for me as  Brit breeding in France, is that I cannot catch up with my young horses on the French competition circuit.

Britain should be promoting the slower and more sympathetic approach to bringing on young horses.  Why spend money on an 'apparently' talented young horse which has a limited life time in competition.


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## Sportznight (5 February 2013)

Rollin said:



			Britain should be promoting the slower and more sympathetic approach to bringing on young horses.  Why spend money on an 'apparently' talented young horse which has a limited life time in competition.
		
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I completely and utterly agree with this!!  Which is why my 7yo was broken as a late 4yo and only compete 3 times as a 5yo and a handful of times last year and why my 5yo is yet to be ridden away!  They are horses for life and they are mine and I couldn't give a damn about age classes.


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## JanetGeorge (5 February 2013)

no_no_nanette said:



			Cambrio van Overis Z is very like his sire Clintissimo, and although he is not yet three, the power already evident through his loins and hindquarters was very impressive indeed.  He looked to me like a superstar in the making.
		
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Sadly, I couldn't get there but looking at the pics, this youngster jumped off the screen at me.  It will be very interesting to see him in a couple of years (but I'm planning one of his foals in my field by then!)


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## christine48 (6 February 2013)

I only went on Sunday  and I was disappointed. The pony stallion Rembrandt stood out for me and I'd love to see what he throws to big mares. 
The Woodlander boys  have fantastic bloodlines, but Clapton was so immature I'd like to see how he develops. Super tramp looked lovely in the stable, but a bit hot in the warm up.
Loved the two ID stallions for a TB mare. 
H Tobago looked stunning but I'm not sure about his temperament ( though its difficult to tell as in hand Arabs seem to be so hyped up), I'd like to see his stock come out under saddle. 
A couple of stallions  looked unsound behind.


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## JanetGeorge (7 February 2013)

christine48 said:



			H Tobago looked stunning but I'm not sure about his temperament ( though its difficult to tell as in hand Arabs seem to be so hyped up), I'd like to see his stock come out under saddle.
		
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I'm not at ALL concerned about H Tobago's temperament - the dozey git fell in love with the stallion in the next stable (Avanti Amorous Archie - who has a fab temperament which I KNOW is passed to his stock as I have a number by him) and apparently they were nuzzling and licking each other at every opportunity.   A stallion with a bad temperament doesn't do that!!  I have 2 mares in foal to him for this year who have previously had foals by my VERY laidback ID stallion - I would expect them to be livelier because of the increase in 'blood' but I'm not at ALL worried that their temperaments won't be just as good!


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## Maesfen (7 February 2013)

I wouldn't have thought H Tobago's temperament was a worry at all, it certainly wasn't for me when I visited him at the stud two years ago; very chilled and friendly although they all act differently when taken to a party.  
My AA colt by him is almost the same although he does think he's quite important at times; like most colts, he's just cheeky and bright but not a nasty bone in his body; just the character and temperament you need for competition.


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## imafluffybunny (7 February 2013)

I think H Tobagos foal that was in the arena is testament to his temperament, I don't think any of mine would have walked out so quietly at that age!


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## ritajennings (7 February 2013)

I did post a comment about HTobago and Archie but H&H have removed it! Well good bye horse and hound wish I could say it was nice knowing you but I am afraid I can't as you are a complete pain in the arse, and please feel free too remove this when some small minded person reports it  as well, someone should get a life!!


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## eventrider23 (7 February 2013)

We had a Tobago foal here this year out of a very hot Trakehner mare and the foal was the most relaxed, easygoing baby I have ever met. She fully converted several 'anti- arab' friends who are now very keen to use him in future. I know nothing I have myself would have ever taken the atmosphere at Addington in such a chilled manner as Zack (foal at SSGB).


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## eventrider23 (7 February 2013)

I have some pics I took in the stables of Tobago and Archie all loved up. Might post them on here later.


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## ritajennings (7 February 2013)

Ooooooo Jane you little Dare Devil you , watch out you are not infractioned!!!! x


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## eventrider23 (7 February 2013)

Well they are my pics...taken on my camera....and I have no foals at home nor mares in foal to either stallion so the following pics simply cannot be taken as any form of advertising....other than showing two rather in love adorable boys!

It was an adorable moment for the to boys and they had a crowd of people all going 'aahhhhh' as they kept licking each other.  Almost as though it is their yearly catch up on life not having seen each other since SSGB last year when they were in same stables.







Archie says 'Psst Tobago....come here!"


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## crellow4 (7 February 2013)

It was lovely to see Archie and HTobago sweet talking through the wall.
 I was a bit disappointed however with the HTobago baby and wondered if I'm the only one who expected him to show more quality? This foal scored 9.18 and was awarded an elite status at the Hatrpury Futurity.


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## eventrider23 (7 February 2013)

TBF to the baby it is the middle of winter and I don't think they knew he would be going till a few weeks ago and he was living out till then so not a long prep time.  Personally I wouldn't take any of my babies anywhere at 8/9 months or at all in their first winter as they ALWAYS end up looking like yaks or get a stage of the fuglies.  I think it was in all a real credit that he behaved soooo well in the daunting arena.  Give him some time and let that winter coat come out and that shining baby of last summer will be back I'm sure.  I had a gorgeous colt a few years ago who at that same age looked sooo awful I kept questioning where he had come from and my beautiful baby gone.....sure enough though by May my beautiful boy was back and looking every bit as beautiful as he did at 3 months.


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## eventrider23 (7 February 2013)

Here is said colt - he is a proper weanling in his winter hairy fuglies as I am sure most breeders will agree.  There aren't many babies of this age who would behave soo impeccably and it is a testament to the his dad as all the babies I have known by him have been like this.  Give him time and his winter weanling stage will be gone and he will be gorgeous again one day I am sure.


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## christine48 (7 February 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			I'm not at ALL concerned about H Tobago's temperament - the dozey git fell in love with the stallion in the next stable (Avanti Amorous Archie - who has a fab temperament which I KNOW is passed to his stock as I have a number by him) and apparently they were nuzzling and licking each other at every opportunity.   A stallion with a bad temperament doesn't do that!!  I have 2 mares in foal to him for this year who have previously had foals by my VERY laidback ID stallion - I would expect them to be livelier because of the increase in 'blood' but I'm not at ALL worried that their temperaments won't be just as good!
		
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I wasn't referring to him in the stable, but in the ring. He hasn't done much under saddle himself, so I reserve judgement until his offspring prove themselves under saddle. 
I personally prefer to use stallions that either have proven ride ability or offspring out competing. Each to their own, that's just my opinion.


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## crellow4 (7 February 2013)

If the aim of presenting Lekanto alongside his sire was to demonstrate a calm temperament then I think we can safely say that objective was achieved - he was calm to the point of looking depressed! If however, he was there to showcase other attributes of the stallion, I think sadly he failed. I can appreciate he was in his 'winter woollies' - I too have babies at home which live out and currently resemble yaks. Despite this they are well grown, well covered and have an enthusiasm for life which I failed to see in this chap. On balance I think it was a brave move to take him, not a move I would have made if he were mine.


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## eventrider23 (7 February 2013)

I too as I said wouldn't have taken a baby of mine at that age as I truly think it is not a good time to show off any baby.  I was there with a friend's stallion though and so saw a lot of him and he was certainly not depressed in the morning when let loose for a play in the collecting ring.  In all the long weekend I would say got to him as it would to most babies of that age and ok by taking him for a walk in the morning to see the arena, etc it took the sparkle out of him fair enough but from a breeder perspective I would always do that with any of my own if the opportunity were there as it is a big ask to expect a baby to go in that arena with no prepping....something seen in the 3 yr old stallions who found it all a bit scary as is normal.  I have spoken to quite a few breeders over the weekend and pretty much all without fail have said to me that they were impressed with his temperament, etc given that the arabs are notorious for their sharpness and again all agreed that he was simply a fugly weanling at the wrong time of year.  Yes I agree it was a brave move to take him given it isn't alway easy to see through these stages but all said and done the overall consensus was positive - at least on comments I have heard from a large number of breeders and spectators.


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## Truly (8 February 2013)

I saw H-Tobago in the stable as well as the arena....I didn't see anything that would make me question his temperament ?

They do show the Arabs totally different than Sport Horses and they are expected to show off...hence the plastic bag on the whip.

I'm not an Arab person , I'm a Sport Horse person but have seen plenty of Arab classes to know they present them in a totally different way with as much 'look at me' presence as possible....it can be quite difficult when you are trying to keep your Sport Horse youngster calm in the ring next door to the Arabs being gee'd up lol


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## EstherYoung (8 February 2013)

Truly said:



			They do show the Arabs totally different than Sport Horses and they are expected to show off...hence the plastic bag on the whip.

I'm not an Arab person , I'm a Sport Horse person but have seen plenty of Arab classes to know they present them in a totally different way with as much 'look at me' presence as possible....it can be quite difficult when you are trying to keep your Sport Horse youngster calm in the ring next door to the Arabs being gee'd up lol
		
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Some of these comments just makes me sad because its not the breed I know and love  And doubly sad knowing how we had to unpick our Spud's frazzled brain after he'd had the first 6 years of his life fried by the arab in hand show world 

Re Tobago, I don't know the horse personally but I don't think there's any malice in him, he's just an over-active big kid. I hope one day he'll be able to re-start his ridden work.


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## Rollin (8 February 2013)

Not all Arab shows are like that.

Here is video from the Shagya France Website of the stallion gradings in 2011.  There are other videos on this site and non of the behaviour described and no plastic bags on the end of sticks.  My boy on this film.  D/K if that is allowed!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv0nKWOpsOE

more videos on Shagya France website (AFCAS)


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## ritajennings (8 February 2013)

I feel I have to comment again, even though I have been 'Warned' 
I saw HTobago and the other stallion that shall been know as Stallion B  . Stallion B being the larger and older of the two boys at no time felt intimidated by HTobago or his manner would have been completely different, being a macho stallion if he had sensed any aggression or anger from HTobago Stallion B would have been on the defensive and he would have tried to dominate HTobago, but this was never the case during they time stabled next to each other they nuzzled and communicated as any two horses would.
I worry when people start making remarks about stallions and their temperaments it is very easy for something like this to get out of hand.

I have seen many times  stallions getting a bad reputation when it is just not deserved on the other hand I have also heard of stallion getting a good reputation when that is not deserved either.

I just felt I needed to comment as I did witness the two stallions in questions and I speak as I find


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## JanetGeorge (8 February 2013)

christine48 said:



			I wasn't referring to him in the stable, but in the ring. He hasn't done much under saddle himself, so I reserve judgement until his offspring prove themselves under saddle. 
I personally prefer to use stallions that either have proven ride ability or offspring out competing. Each to their own, that's just my opinion.
		
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It's certainly 'nice' if a stallion is out being ridden - but this is sometimes prevented by injury - or age - or even lack of a suitable jockey.  And it's even 'nicer' if they have progeny out under saddle.  It makes you feel so much better about your opinion!

However, a lot of TOP stallions didn't get the opportunity - for various reasons - and if mare owners hadn't trusted their own 'eye' and their judgement, many would have been 'lost'!

And if no-one uses a very young stallion who has not yet 'proved' himself, there is a real risk that he will be either 1) too expensive - or 2) dead by the time he HAS proven himself.

Anyway, if a stallion moves well in hand - and shows a good temperament in hand - he SHOULD be a good ride.  If he's not, it's more likely someone screwed up his backing than that he has an 'unrideable' gene!

I can't WAIT for my two H Tobago foals to be born - I'm totally confident they will be 'special'!  And I'm lusting over Shirley Light's 3 year old - Cambrio van Overis Z - shown in hand - I suspect he'll be pretty rideable when he's old enough to start proper work.  But I can afford him now - which I almost certainly WON'T be able to do once he proves himself to be as brilliant as his bloodlines and conformation suggest he will be.  So I'll gamble on my judgement!


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## eventrider23 (8 February 2013)

Janet - you're not seriously branching away from your ID breeding to use a WB are you? Surely not!! Lol


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## koeffee (8 February 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			It's certainly 'nice' if a stallion is out being ridden - but this is sometimes prevented by injury - or age - or even lack of a suitable jockey.  And it's even 'nicer' if they have progeny out under saddle.  It makes you feel so much better about your opinion!

However, a lot of TOP stallions didn't get the opportunity - for various reasons - and if mare owners hadn't trusted their own 'eye' and their judgement, many would have been 'lost'!

And if no-one uses a very young stallion who has not yet 'proved' himself, there is a real risk that he will be either 1) too expensive - or 2) dead by the time he HAS proven himself.

Anyway, if a stallion moves well in hand - and shows a good temperament in hand - he SHOULD be a good ride.  If he's not, it's more likely someone screwed up his backing than that he has an 'unrideable' gene!

I can't WAIT for my two H Tobago foals to be born - I'm totally confident they will be 'special'!  And I'm lusting over Shirley Light's 3 year old - Cambrio van Overis Z - shown in hand - I suspect he'll be pretty rideable when he's old enough to start proper work.  But I can afford him now - which I almost certainly WON'T be able to do once he proves himself to be as brilliant as his bloodlines and conformation suggest he will be.  So I'll gamble on my judgement!

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Need a like button, i adore Cambrio also and im using him too!!!


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## christine48 (8 February 2013)

H Tobago is one of the nicest Arabs I've seen conformation wise, but I still stand by my opinion. Good luck with your foals I'm sure he will be ideal to refine the ID.


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## sallyf (8 February 2013)

christine48 said:



			H Tobago is one of the nicest Arabs I've seen conformation wise, but I still stand by my opinion. Good luck with your foals I'm sure he will be ideal to refine the ID.
		
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Im going to side with Christine here and say that a stallions temp with other stallions and in hand has absolutely no bearing on his rideability under saddle.

I also agree Htobago is absolutely beautiful but personally if i was looking to add arab blood in i would want to know it had rideability under saddle first even if that was just daily hacking out.
A hypothetical answer as not what i would personally do as i wouldnt want to risk losing jump in the foal and movement also isnt an issue i need to address.
I owned a stunning welsh x arab who had a fab temperment but no ability.
Ive also worked with alot of performance and racing arabs (pure/anglo and part bred)and there was little consistency in there ability despite most being related to good performance lines.
I can see the logic in using something like Htobago to breed small dressage horses and ponies but not something to jump.
And good futurity marks as a youngster also give little indication on whether anything will have the rideability to make a top class horse


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## JanetGeorge (8 February 2013)

eventrider23 said:



			Janet - you're not seriously branching away from your ID breeding to use a WB are you? Surely not!! Lol
		
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Why not??  I will still be continuing to breed pure IDs - with my own stallions and the gorgeous Archie - but there have been some rule changes forced upon ID sport horses and the grading up register by Horse Sport Ireland  that mean some of my IDx mares' progeny will no longer be eligible for grading up.

The two mares in foal to H Tobago for this year - one is an IDxTB (stunning mare - who has stunning foals by an RID stallion - two fillies have graded onto the Appendix ID register) but because we can't PROVE her dam was TB, she's now excluded from grading up!  I LOVE Anglo-Arabs and I think I'll like an ALMOST A-A with a good dash of ID even more!  And the other mare is a TBx (by Carmel Head but we can't PROVE ID breeding) so she's 'out' as well. I'd put money on her being 3/4 TB with 1/4 ID - so again - the foal will be ALMOST A-A, but with that extra bit of substance and brain.

And the BEST riding horse I own is a WBxIDSH (he has the best of ALL worlds!)  I didn't breed him - but if I could breed something LIKE him I'd be more than happy!

When I saw pics of Cambrio, I thought he looked like a 'refined' version of this horse.







He is out of the IDxTB mare BY an ID (the dam has thrown very much to the TB - and her 3/4 ID progeny look more as you'd expect a first cross to look.)  So I figured if she can produce this by a BIG, beefy ID she SHOULD be able to produce a stunner by Cambrio (she's in foal to H Tobago for this year and that should be stunning too!)


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## christine48 (8 February 2013)

sallyf said:



			Im going to side with Christine here and say that a stallions temp with other stallions and in hand has absolutely no bearing on his rideability under saddle.

I also agree Htobago is absolutely beautiful but personally if i was looking to add arab blood in i would want to know it had rideability under saddle first even if that was just daily hacking out.
A hypothetical answer as not what i would personally do as i wouldnt want to risk losing jump in the foal and movement also isnt an issue i need to address.
I owned a stunning welsh x arab who had a fab temperment but no ability.
Ive also worked with alot of performance and racing arabs (pure/anglo and part bred)and there was little consistency in there ability despite most being related to good performance lines.
I can see the logic in using something like Htobago to breed small dressage horses and ponies but not something to jump.
And good futurity marks as a youngster also give little indication on whether anything will have the rideability to make a top class horse
		
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Thank you Sally. I like you prefer to keep the jump when breeding, therefore would not choose to use an Arab. To me he just looked very hot in the ring and I was thinking OMG if he gets loose, god help that foal.
I saw him in the stable, on his hind legs where as the ID stallion wasn't bothered at all.
Surely if he is sound enough to move as he does in hand, he could be shown under saddle.


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## Asha (8 February 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			And if no-one uses a very young stallion who has not yet 'proved' himself, there is a real risk that he will be either 1) too expensive - or 2) dead by the time he HAS proven himself.

D
		
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I dont understand the argument for unproven young stallions with reference price of the stud fee. Cambrio's stud fee is £300  plus £100 booking fee. You can get Verdi for 1500 euros ( equivalent of £1200), so a net difference of £800 !

when you consider all the costs of raising a foal until a 4 yo, the stud fee is a very small percentage.


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## JanetGeorge (8 February 2013)

christine48 said:



			I saw him in the stable, on his hind legs where as the ID stallion wasn't bothered at all.
		
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Eek - if you'd seen my ID colt at grading you'd have said what the Inspectors said!!  (which wasn't polite!)  He reared in the stable, he reared in the ring - and a bit more!  (Admittedly, he DID fly buck and nearly removed the head of one of them! ) But it was just a testosterone surge in a colt who hadn't been out much.  He was one of the easiest horses we've ever backed - and he's easy-peasy to ride - even through the stud season when there are in-season mares in every field.  And the best behaved weanling I have at present is one of his!

Everything I've seen of H Tobago assures me that next year, my best behaved weanling is VERY likely to be one of his!


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## eventrider23 (8 February 2013)

Janet - that will be a GORGEOUS foal!!! I love Cambrio and his sire Clintissimo stole the show for me at his Z grading - I totally fell in love with him and Cambrio is almost a clone!!

Regards Tobago and the ridden work...I too would LOVE to see him back under saddle and will always keep fingers crossed that one day he will be re-started even if yes just to do light work but it isn't the be all and end all. I like the horse, I love the temperament he is throwing and in all his good points outweigh the down sides. There are many decent sport horse sires that have never done anything of note themselves whatsoever....in hand or under saddle..,and so who is to say he won't be one...at least he has done everything he bas in hand and his progeny likewise. It doesn't have to be this generation as who knows he may prove to be a 2nd generation dam site or whatever..,time will tell. But what I do know is that people like him. If they want to use him then good on then and it's their gamble (as it will be mine at some point) and it may pay off...it may not...same as, realistically with any form of breeding. Just think - I would have LOVED to be one of those  very very few breeders who gambled on using a young unpopular stallion called Arko when he was a young ungraded stallion who was available at stud for a few hundred pounds but had few takers, with a current stud fee in the thousands I think it is those people having the last laugh there.


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## eventrider23 (8 February 2013)

As regards using unproven stallions....SOMEONE has to use them in order for their to be progeny on the ground to judge by and indeed increase in popularity! If no one ever used young unproven stallions then we wouldn't get these older established greats!


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## JanetGeorge (8 February 2013)

Asha said:



			I dont understand the argument for unproven young stallions with reference price of the stud fee. Cambrio's stud fee is £300  plus £100 booking fee. You can get Verdi for 1500 euros ( equivalent of £1200), so a net difference of £800 !

when you consider all the costs of raising a foal until a 4 yo, the stud fee is a very small percentage.
		
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I'd check the extras for Verdi if you're thinking of using him - by the time you add health papers and VAT it's closer to £1700 - so a net difference of at least £1200.  He's stunning - and I LOVE his breeding - but I CAN'T justify that sort of stud fee on an ID SH mare - no matter HOW nice I think she is - because buyers won't pay BIG money for a Verdi out of an 'unfashionable' mare!

But I CAN afford Cambrio's stud fee for her - and produce a very nice horse - who I'll probably keep until it's backed and going well.


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## christine48 (8 February 2013)

I would use an unproven stallion,providing it had proven jumping bloodlines. In fact one stallion I'm really interested in is Contendros who is closely related to Codex one who jumps internationally.they are both by Contendro 1 and their dam line is very close in that Gypsy, dam of Codex one is Contendros's grand dam.


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## Asha (8 February 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			I'd check the extras for Verdi if you're thinking of using him - by the time you add health papers and VAT it's closer to £1700 - so a net difference of at least £1200.  He's stunning - and I LOVE his breeding - but I CAN'T justify that sort of stud fee on an ID SH mare - no matter HOW nice I think she is - because buyers won't pay BIG money for a Verdi out of an 'unfashionable' mare!

But I CAN afford Cambrio's stud fee for her - and produce a very nice horse - who I'll probably keep until it's backed and going well.
		
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Oh no, wont be breeding again for a bit. Just used Verdi as an example.

Dont get me wrong, i used an unproven young stallion, got a belter of a foal ! 
Chose the stalllion, as i believed he would compliment my mare.

Just firmly believe that the price of the stud fee is the last thing to consider.

For the sake of a few hundred £'s over 4/5 years surely its hardly relevant.


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## eventrider23 (8 February 2013)

But Christine isn't that just it there though..horses for courses. If Tobago matches the attributes being sought by someone in the same way your unproven Sj bred stallion does for you then using him would come down to the same thing/reasons. God he certainly wouldn't be a 'gambling' idea for a jump mare as that first generation foal wouldn't likely be ideal HOWEVER if a breeder had an older fashioned stamp of mare and was aiming to get what I call a 'stage' horse I.e adding the blood in which can then be used especially if a mare to then cross back to more traditional breeding for future generations then he would be a good blood infuser.

(hope this makes sense - battling a sick bug so not feeling the most articulate here)


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## christine48 (8 February 2013)

eventrider23 said:



			But Christine isn't that just it there though..horses for courses. If Tobago matches the attributes being sought by someone in the same way your unproven Sj bred stallion does for you then using him would come down to the same thing/reasons. God he certainly wouldn't be a 'gambling' idea for a jump mare as that first generation foal wouldn't likely be ideal HOWEVER if a breeder had an older fashioned stamp of mare and was aiming to get what I call a 'stage' horse I.e adding the blood in which can then be used especially if a mare to then cross back to more traditional breeding for future generations then he would be a good blood infuser.

(hope this makes sense - battling a sick bug so not feeling the most articulate here)
		
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Not many Arabs eventing or SJ are there?  Don't get me wrong they are lovely to look at but I'm not interested in endurance riding, racing or showing. 
The unproven stallions which I would use come from generations of jump breeding and have themselves been performance tested in the very least.
I still say I would like to see him under saddle, I can't find any pictures of him being ridden anywhere. 
 However he moved beautifully and at least he was sound unlike a couple of the other stallions.
 If Arabs were renound for jumping and if he had some sort of competition record I have a warmblood mare who he'd complement conformation wise. However at the moment it would be too much of a gamble


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## JanetGeorge (8 February 2013)

eventrider23 said:



			As regards using unproven stallions....SOMEONE has to use them in order for their to be progeny on the ground to judge by and indeed increase in popularity! If no one ever used young unproven stallions then we wouldn't get these older established greats!
		
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Exactly!  I'm realistic about the mares I want to use Cambrio on.  They're 'nicely' bred but certainly not the sort of breeding that would bring in buyers with lots of ££££!  But they've both produced VERY nice foals (repeatedly) who are immensely trainable, move well and jump well.  And if I get a Cambrio filly from one of them, I'd certainly want to keep her because SHE would be worth - perhaps - a much higher stud fee to a PROVEN stallion.  And - by then - if Cambrio is as good as I think he might be, he'll be proven too!


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## eventrider23 (8 February 2013)

Will get some stats tomorrow as not on the proper computer here but of course there is Arab blood in those sports. The Trakehner breed alone will only allow Arab or TB blood as approved outcrosses as they know the value of adding it back in. Look at many sport horse pedigrees and there is Arab back in there whose effects are seen. Hence why I said as a generation/stage horse to add blood back in to go down the generations I feel he can be useful. Of course time will tell on that one. Eventing wise we only have to look at good old Tamarillo to see Arab blood in action. And standing at stud is Persiflage. I will get some more refs tomo though.

I do remember seeing video footage of tobago on a forum somewhere when first under saddle. The rider was in a field and decided to pop over the xc fences out there - it was only a few days post backing - and he loved it.  I will have to endeavour to find it. It was one of the reasons he first caught my eye. And well he's doing something right if Julia Hodkin is now using him on Future Illusion's dam this year based on the strength of his foals.


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## eventrider23 (8 February 2013)

Janet - if I could afford it this year I would be using Cambrio in a heartbeat!!


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## cloppy (9 February 2013)

would also like to confirm as the breeder of two Tobagolings that they have the most wonderful temperaments and these are out of a trakehner mare.  A well respected judge and breeder did actually pm me when I bred my first one to ask about the termperament of this cross, all I could do was to breed another one to make sure it wasn't a fluke and I'm not disappionted.


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## Truly (9 February 2013)

Not only has the Trakehner got loads of Arab blood...take a look at any Selle Francais pedigree!


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## EstherYoung (9 February 2013)

Traks are virtually anglo arabs. Ditto Selle Francais. Westphalen Ponies are heavily descended from good old fashioned British Riding Ponies and most have enough welsh and arab blood to be registered as part bred arabs and part bred welsh.

Arab blood is pretty darned important and nothing to be ashamed of. We should be celebrating it, not pretending it is not there. And they're not all bonkers spinny spinny twirly creatures as portrayed by the in hand show circuit.

Hopefully there are winds of change on the in hand circuit. This British bred mare was World Champion in 2011 and US Champion in 2012 (with the highest score ever):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zhp63X3ne8
(Ignore the schmalzy slo mo in the vid but it's worth a watch). Her 'people' adore her and she isn't shanked or psyched - she's got natural presence in spades.
The bloodlines aren't all poncy without substance, either. She's the neice of our two grey arabs, she's the cousin of Jess's Tiger (the lass with the gorgeous bay arab who posts on here), this is another of her uncles: http://www.flickr.com/photos/72616463@N00/3216775306/ and this is another: http://www.in-the-focus.com/arabianstore/details.php?gid=326&pid=9946
(And that's just from the side of her pedigree that I know about)


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## EstherYoung (9 February 2013)

ps Just to link back to Tobago, Jasmeenah also has some ancestors in common with him on the sireline I think


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## shirleyno2 (9 February 2013)

Firstly, thanks for lovely comments re Cambrio!
Secondly, I have watched Tabago for a couple of years now (from a distance I admit!) - If you watch him doing his hi jinks he is purely playing, I have never seen him strike out with either front or back legs, now how many stallions can you say that about when they are leaping around? No stallion should be marred for having a look over a stable wall at his neighbour, especially when in a barn of 30 or so testosterone stallions!!! 
Surely the best point of stallion shows is so that mare owners can see them up close in the stable and out strutting their stuff?
 I do wonder if some stallions that don't ever attend these stallion shows are hiding at home???

Re assessing rideability when shown in hand, I certainly think you can gauge a lot:
 how quickly they learn to lunge and trot up, accepting the bit -  and if he's a strong tank in hand he is likely to be a strong ride IMO- their reaction to atmosphere/music/other horses etc.
Breeding is a personal choice and for sure we'd be up the proverbial creek with no paddles what so ever if we all liked the same thing!!
I'll go now as I've nothing more to say and I was always taught if you have nothing good to say, say nothing!!


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## koeffee (9 February 2013)

Proof will be when his eldest will be out ridden, it would be great to see Tobago under saddle but not a world ender!!! Alme des nids wasnt ridden ever due to injury, a few very nice rideable things around by him, to me Tobago is an arab that shows off and knows he is special, but not a loon by any means and not nasty just very playful, i have 4 boys at home and all can be ridden by a novice but can be full of it some times, all stallion are, next year i hope to get them out to some of these parades but i struggle being mile away and 2 small kids and 23 other horses to leave at home and one other person who helps!!!


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## JanetGeorge (9 February 2013)

koeffee said:



			Proof will be when his eldest will be out ridden, it would be great to see Tobago under saddle but not a world ender!!! Alme des nids wasnt ridden ever due to injury, a few very nice rideable things around by him,
		
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The RID stallion Flagmount Diamond was - I believe - NEVER ridden.  His full brother Flagmount King was an A Grade showjumper.  Guess which one's progeny have gained the most sj points?


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## sallyf (9 February 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			The RID stallion Flagmount Diamond was - I believe - NEVER ridden.  His full brother Flagmount King was an A Grade showjumper.  Guess which one's progeny have gained the most sj points? 

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You make the point there yourself a bit though.
Stallion never ridden but full brother to a Grade A showjumper.
Proven genetics are proven genetics the same as racehorse stallions like Sadlers Wells full brother Fairy King.
This isnt a crib against Htobago as i have said he is stunning and i believe he has uses in the sport horse market but he isnt a full brother to a high class competition horse and so from my point of view there is no proven ability to throw an eventing or showjumping horse and in the current economic climate i am using either proven stallions or one of my own because i believe that people are being much more selective in what they buy and i know what i can sell.
My own stallion didnt compete due to injury but he was broken and had been prepped ready to compete so proved rideability including being bombproof on the road ,he is also out of a mare that showjumped with an amateur at 1.35 level and whose siblings competed at affiliated level in other spheres so his pedigree is steeped in performance and all of the influential names in TB sport horse breeding so no surprise that his young competition horses jump but i wouldnt expect a commercial breeder to find him a stand out choice of stallion as there as so much choice out there available.
I wouldnt use any old TB stallion to breed an eventer either it would have to have certain key bloodlines that are prolific in eventers and showjumpers so im not being anti arab.
As ive said i spent 11 1/2 years on a yard where arabs where raced ,showed ,hunted and competed and there is a massive differance in abaility even with the ones that are from performance lines.
Yes there is much arab in WB breeding but like the TB blood they are often very specific lines with proven performance ability.
Just to add that i would use unproven stallion if it was something like Jackeroo who is on my shortlist and never been ridden but full brother to 2 olympic horses and also Shirleys young stallions as you know that Brendon assess and castrate if they dont believe that the colts will go on .


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## christine48 (9 February 2013)

sallyf said:



			You make the point there yourself a bit though.
Stallion never ridden but full brother to a Grade A showjumper.
Proven genetics are proven genetics the same as racehorse stallions like Sadlers Wells full brother Fairy King.
This isnt a crib against Htobago as i have said he is stunning and i believe he has uses in the sport horse market but he isnt a full brother to a high class competition horse and so from my point of view there is no proven ability to throw an eventing or showjumping horse and in the current economic climate i am using either proven stallions or one of my own because i believe that people are being much more selective in what they buy and i know what i can sell.
My own stallion didnt compete due to injury but he was broken and had been prepped ready to compete so proved rideability including being bombproof on the road ,he is also out of a mare that showjumped with an amateur at 1.35 level and whose siblings competed at affiliated level in other spheres so his pedigree is steeped in performance and all of the influential names in TB sport horse breeding so no surprise that his young competition horses jump but i wouldnt expect a commercial breeder to find him a stand out choice of stallion as there as so much choice out there available.
I wouldnt use any old TB stallion to breed an eventer either it would have to have certain key bloodlines that are prolific in eventers and showjumpers so im not being anti arab.
As ive said i spent 11 1/2 years on a yard where arabs where raced ,showed ,hunted and competed and there is a massive differance in abaility even with the ones that are from performance lines.
Yes there is much arab in WB breeding but like the TB blood they are often very specific lines with proven performance ability.
Just to add that i would use unproven stallion if it was something like Jackeroo who is on my shortlist and never been ridden but full brother to 2 olympic horses and also Shirleys young stallions as you know that Brendon assess and castrate if they dont believe that the colts will go on .
		
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Very well said Sally.


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## eventrider23 (9 February 2013)

End of the day the proof will be in the pudding.  No one is forcing anyone to use anyone they don't want to.  If these foals amount to something fab....if not then it was their breeders gamble...alas the biggest part of all breeding.

Incidentally though it has always been stated by his owner that he was indeed started under saddle, was schooling and jumping in fact and being prepped for sport horse gradings....till an injury curtailed this. No different to many other horses.  At least he had the prolific in hand career he had beforehand as well and his progeny are certainly following in his foorsteps. Just today i saw some pictures of his son Mobago I believe it was who has possibly been the closest to his sire as a show horse and is the definition of 'lit up' in a show atmosphere.  These photos though were of him ridden...with in hand show ones as comparison.  The in hand show horse was working the atmosphere as he should do and looking every part the boy he is whilst the ridden ones showed a lovely calm, quiet youngster with a very relaxed and attentive expression on his face.  That alone further demonstrates his trainability and ability to switch that 'sparkle' on and off.  

Anyway as said before it is horses for courses and each to their own IMO.


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## christine48 (9 February 2013)

sallyf said:



			I certainly wouldnt rule decanter out as just being a dressage sire ,i have seen a very smart eventer by him (just cant remember whats its called ).
And didnt Dimaggio sire a Burghley young event horse winner to
		
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Also On Q For Gold, eventer by  Dimaggio, completed Pau 4* last year.


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## HBM1 (9 February 2013)

Really though if it always came down to using a great sire line with a great dam line, every youngster would be a superstar. They aren't so there is still a hell of a lot of luck involved. There will always be stars who come from no real proven line at all (after all, they all have to start somewhere), and those who should perform who just can't.


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## emlybob (9 February 2013)

I don't really like Arabs but I saw him at addington and thought he was stunning. He has great presence and showmanship. Remember he as shown in a tiny thin halter which had to show how easy he is to deal with. How many of us would dare take our stallions to a show in just that????


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## sallyf (10 February 2013)

eventrider23 said:



			End of the day the proof will be in the pudding.  No one is forcing anyone to use anyone they don't want to.  If these foals amount to something fab....if not then it was their breeders gamble...alas the biggest part of all breeding.

Incidentally though it has always been stated by his owner that he was indeed started under saddle, was schooling and jumping in fact and being prepped for sport horse gradings....till an injury curtailed this. No different to many other horses.  At least he had the prolific in hand career he had beforehand as well and his progeny are certainly following in his foorsteps. Just today i saw some pictures of his son Mobago I believe it was who has possibly been the closest to his sire as a show horse and is the definition of 'lit up' in a show atmosphere.  These photos though were of him ridden...with in hand show ones as comparison.  The in hand show horse was working the atmosphere as he should do and looking every part the boy he is whilst the ridden ones showed a lovely calm, quiet youngster with a very relaxed and attentive expression on his face.  That alone further demonstrates his trainability and ability to switch that 'sparkle' on and off.  

Anyway as said before it is horses for courses and each to their own IMO.
		
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He was presented for grading with SPSS and as far as i'm aware despite scoring highly for conformation ,movement etc he failed on temperament under saddle.
Also as far as im aware the injury he sustained is not a career threatening one and never stopped him covering that season.
My own stallion covered after his injury but that was after 2 years of rehab


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## eventrider23 (10 February 2013)

The injury he had obelise was to his sternum right in the area he is girthed up and I believe a hard area to diagnose. I believe he was continue working after it happened without realising and was not behaving (so possibly around same time as SPSS) and tried to work through it till thy had it investigated further to see if there was an underlying cause and found that he had if not actually cracked his sternum then not far off. His owner has always been up front and open about this as with everything about him ad has said that yes he is healed but it is now a memory issue of the pain he was in when they contInued trying to work him before discovering the injury. This is not an uncommon thing with intelligent horses after all.

Sally please, if you really have such an issue with him then take it up with his owner as I am sure she will answer all your questions. No one is forcing you to use him whatsoever or forcing anyone else either. You know I love your boy May but he is no different to Tobago in terms of ridden performance when it comes down to it but people have still used him and his progeny are now more than speaking for themselves. Tobago's eldest are only now coming under saddle and those are pure breds so can we not just allow them the time to prove or disprove themselves under saddle? The sport progeny will follow in due course. There are after all too many to list sires that never did anything under saddle as many have now said and many that didn't start ridden work till much much older which will hopefully be the case here but if not his progeny are what matters at the end of the day. So can they not have the chance to speak for him?  So far they are certainly impressing people with people happy to take to chance on using him including the likes now of Future Sport Horses, Janet George and Roy Haggerty so their must be something going for him. Just cause he might not be one persons cup of tea doesn't mean no one else should like him after all does it. If they are all making a mistake then more fool them but it is their mistake to make or not. I know that knowing everyone's opinions certainly won't stop me from using him.


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## eventrider23 (10 February 2013)

As Shirley said earlier....it'd be boring if we all liked the same things!


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## sallyf (10 February 2013)

eventrider23 said:



			As Shirley said earlier....it'd be boring if we all liked the same things!
		
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Absolutely and as i have said above i believe he does have things to offer to parts of the sport horse industry so its not like i dislike him but there are facts out there and if it was another stallion people would be very happy to show that it was either ungraded or failed a grading.
No reason to protect this horse any more than any other.
People are being very over sensitive about the facts.


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## eventrider23 (10 February 2013)

It's not a case of being sensitive but more that it is a constant recycling of the same thing whenever the subject of Tobago comes up and despite his owner and others rehashing it it is always the same things from the same people. End of the day his owner has been up front about everything and so it shouldn't be this constant rehash especially when it is the same people bringing up the points against him when they know the story full well as I know you and I have had this same conversation privately Sally.


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## eventrider23 (10 February 2013)

Can we now though allow the thread to go back tothe subject which was SSGB as a whole and not focus on one stallions soo concentratedly please,


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## JanetGeorge (10 February 2013)

eventrider23 said:



			So far they are certainly impressing people with people happy to take to chance on using him including the likes now of Future Sport Horses, Janet George and Roy Haggerty so their must be something going for him. Just cause he might not be one persons cup of tea doesn't mean no one else should like him after all does it. If they are all making a mistake then more fool them but it is their mistake to make or not. I know that knowing everyone's opinions certainly won't stop me from using him.
		
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Well said eventrider23!  This stallion was a BIG departure for me - I'd never thought of using an Arab on my SH mares until I saw HIM!  It was a combination of his overall look, his presence and his movement that made me go WOW!  So I started doing some research thinking I'd see something or find something out that would change my mind.  And his owner was TOTALLY upfront and honest about him!

If I was 'right' or if I was 'wrong', hopefully I'll soon have the evidence in my fields.  And having had a breed inspector tell me I should geld my outcross ID colt because of his 'temperament' - and having chosen to ignore that advice because it was based on an hour's observation on one day whereas I had known him since the day he was born - I certainly wasn't concerned about his 'rideability'.  I've seen far too many horses that have been 'difficult' to ride who were actually absolutely fine once the vets, physio etc. had done their bit - and the few that continued to be a bit 'difficult' were certainy suffering 'remembered pain' issues that just needed more time and patience to overcome.


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## Maesfen (10 February 2013)

HBM1 said:



			Really though if it always came down to using a great sire line with a great dam line, every youngster would be a superstar. They aren't so there is still a hell of a lot of luck involved. There will always be stars who come from no real proven line at all (after all, they all have to start somewhere), and those who should perform who just can't.
		
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Well we're very pleased with the fruits of the ungraded One More Tiger and the then ungraded but since Head Stud Book Witches Broom.  MF Tawny Tiger, AKA Kitty, just five and thoroughly enjoying her work.  So I could have a decent bench mark for my Tobago colt out of the same dam,


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## rebeccag (10 February 2013)

Sorry...bit late to this but thought I would weigh in on the Arab debate so I hope you don't mind. My family have been breeding Arabs and crosses since the 30s so I'm biased but I do think they get a bit of a bad rap. All breeds can be tricky but a good Arab can add a lot. Our veteran stallion Sisyrinchium who was shown both in hand and under saddle very successfully has had a lot of very nice Sports Horse progeny quite a few of which are currently competing. Our view is that the Arab can add lightness of movement and stamina. And in terms of jumping we have often had keen purebred jumpers-in fact Jessica Phoenix who was on the Canadian Olympic eventing team is competing a horse that we bred out of one of our purebred mares who was an incredible jumper.


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## htobago (10 February 2013)

Sorry - I hadn't seen this thread, but as eventrider, JanetGeorge, Shirley, Maesfen, cloppy and many others have already explained about Tobago's injury and much else, there is little for me to add. Except to thank all these breeders very much for their comments - and to thank many of them for using my boy on their excellent sport-horse mares!

I do understand why people might question this - he is an in-hand show-Arab, unproven under saddle, so not perhaps the most obvious choice for breeding sport horses. But the breeders who are using him for this purpose - including, as eventrider pointed out, a number of very well known and highly respected sport-horse breeders - have seen him, studied his offspring, seen their Futurity results, show records, etc. These are not people who take these decisions lightly, or whose heads are easily turned by a pretty, flashy Arab. 

So although I am just a novice newcomer in the sport-breeding world, I do respect their judgement. They have explained to me their many reasons for choosing him, but I can't repeat these without sounding braggy, and I don't want to get banned!

I also don't want to get into trouble for posting photos, but as a couple of people have expressed concern that they have not seen any of him under saddle, I hope it is OK to suggest having a look at his Facebook page ('H Tobago'), where I have posted a pre-injury photo of him working nicely under saddle, and also a couple of photos of one of his 4yo pure-bred sons (another show stallion) working quietly on the lunge and under saddle.

As others have already kindly said, I have always been completely upfront about Tobago. I have never claimed that he is a quiet, laid-back stallion. He is lively and playful and high-spirited. But there is no nastiness in him - he is a sweet, very affectionate horse. So are all his offspring. As Pat Adams and others have said, they are sparky and bright, but very friendly, good-natured and trainable.  

Believe me, we ALL hope that Tobago will be able to get over the 'remembered pain' problem and resume his ridden training. But I am already wracked with guilt that it took us so long to realise he was in pain, and I am not about to take any unnecessary risks with his physical or mental health just to prove a point. His oldest offspring are being started and will be out representing him under saddle soon. 

Again, I really do understand why some people might find him an unusual choice for sport-breeding. And of course I get that he's not everyone's cup of tea. I'm very grateful that so many experienced and respected breeders are using him on their very best mares, but I realise that not everyone shares their high opinion of him. Or that some are reserving judgement until they see his offspring out competing under saddle. And that's fine.


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## htobago (10 February 2013)

rebeccag said:



			Sorry...bit late to this but thought I would weigh in on the Arab debate so I hope you don't mind. My family have been breeding Arabs and crosses since the 30s so I'm biased but I do think they get a bit of a bad rap. All breeds can be tricky but a good Arab can add a lot. Our veteran stallion Sisyrinchium who was shown both in hand and under saddle very successfully has had a lot of very nice Sports Horse progeny quite a few of which are currently competing. Our view is that the Arab can add lightness of movement and stamina. And in terms of jumping we have often had keen purebred jumpers-in fact Jessica Phoenix who was on the Canadian Olympic eventing team is competing a horse that we bred out of one of our purebred mares who was an incredible jumper.
		
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Wow - if your family is Biddesden Stud, you know more about breeding top-class performance Arabs, Anglos and Part-breds than pretty much anyone on the planet, and we are honoured to have you here!


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## maestro (10 February 2013)

I really do not see this as an Arab debate they are a superb breed and must always be upheld as any pure breed should. I see no one actually doubting Tobago as a type, he is clearly a beautiful horse and has had his problems to delay us seeing under saddle and that it is always a concern using any unproven stallion.  The fact that he failed a grading because of his unridability means that until his stock are out there being ridden and proving it was the injury causing his problems it is going to put some people off and that is the sort of information good or bad that is asked for on these forums.
I myself have been trying to breed eventers for 25 years and have found it hard to keep the jump in a line and easy to lose so would reserve judjment on such a Stallion until proved otherwise, thus taking a chance they are priced out of my range.  Thats not to say I havent used young sires or any with Arab in them (Inschallah is littered in my bloodlines)its just as Sally and Christine have said they do have to come from Jump/ridability lines.


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## rebeccag (10 February 2013)

@HTobago thank you vey much!


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## Bearskin (10 February 2013)

Maesfen said:



			Well we're very pleased with the fruits of the ungraded One More Tiger and the then ungraded but since Head Stud Book Witches Broom.  MF Tawny Tiger, AKA Kitty, just five and thoroughly enjoying her work.  So I could have a decent bench mark for my Tobago colt out of the same dam, 





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Lovely photo and Tiger is  on my shortlist this year.  Did anyone see him at SSGB?  I was unable to attend and would be interested in people's thoughts on what they saw that day.


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## magic104 (10 February 2013)

I think it is best to agree to disagree.  I would prefer to use a stallion who has shown himself under saddle as it is a different ball game to being handled from the ground.  I would prefer horses were not started before they were 3 on top of that to see them being worked in sitting trot goes against everything I was every taught.  It also goes against most research into wear & tear on young horses both physically & mentally.  I would also prefer it is a horse actually used himself when ridden.  A nice stamp of horse who then looked to be on the forehand & making little use of his very substantial back end.  I would prefer it is people could have an opinion outside of the pack without being jumped on.  There is no point in us all going with the flow, it would be so boring, but is the reason I don't venture on here much.  Why are people not permitted to question against the crowd, especially when they are not trying to cause trouble?   

Loved the ID boys they were super.  Loved Arco & his boys.  My companions fell for Clinton big time!!  The whole thing was well run & it is only in it's 3rd year.   Offspring loved the chocolate cake.  Everyone we spoke to were just so nice.  Loved Dane Rawllins masterclass.  In fact loved my 2 days.


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## maestro (10 February 2013)

magic104 said:



			I think it is best to agree to disagree.  I would prefer to use a stallion who has shown himself under saddle as it is a different ball game to being handled from the ground.  I would prefer horses were not started before they were 3 on top of that to see them being worked in sitting trot goes against everything I was every taught.  It also goes against most research into wear & tear on young horses both physically & mentally.  I would also prefer it is a horse actually used himself when ridden.  A nice stamp of horse who then looked to be on the forehand & making little use of his very substantial back end.  I would prefer it is people could have an opinion outside of the pack without being jumped on.  There is no point in us all going with the flow, it would be so boring, but is the reason I don't venture on here much.  Why are people not permitted to question against the crowd, especially when they are not trying to cause trouble?   

Loved the ID boys they were super.  Loved Arco & his boys.  My companions fell for Clinton big time!!  The whole thing was well run & it is only in it's 3rd year.   Offspring loved the chocolate cake.  Everyone we spoke to were just so nice.  Loved Dane Rawllins masterclass.  In fact loved my 2 days.
		
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"LIKE"


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## Maesfen (10 February 2013)

Bearskin said:



			Lovely photo and Tiger is  on my shortlist this year.  Did anyone see him at SSGB?  I was unable to attend and would be interested in people's thoughts on what they saw that day.
		
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Thank you, can't take the credit for that but do have full permission to use it!  Sadly I didn't go but have you seen these from that day? http://grahamgannonphotography.zenfolio.com/p167120373


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## christine48 (10 February 2013)

Bearskin said:



			Lovely photo and Tiger is  on my shortlist this year.  Did anyone see him at SSGB?  I was unable to attend and would be interested in people's thoughts on what they saw that day.
		
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I wouldn't use a stallion that had failed two gradings and again is un proven. In my opinion he looked a little heavy and lacked athleticism. We thought he looked un level behind too.


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## TheMule (10 February 2013)

christine48 said:



			I wouldn't use a stallion that had failed two gradings and again is un proven. In my opinion he looked a little heavy and lacked athleticism. We thought he looked un level behind too.
		
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Kitty, the mare Maesfen posted about, is one of the most athletic horses I have ridden and yes, i've ridden some good horses! She is so loose and easy in her movement and jump, everything is easy to her but she tries so hard to please as well. 
I'm nothing to do with the stallion and he wouldn't suit my mare but he is proving himself through his offspring- hopefully Kitty will get out eventing later this year and put some results out there for him


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## chrissie1 (10 February 2013)

I didn't see OMT ridden.  But like christine48 a stallion that has failed Grading/s would be a big deterrent to me.  One that hadn't been presented would allow me to make  my own mind up.  Failing is a different thing altogether.

That isn't to say that whichever stallion we may discuss wouldn't throw sound stock that are achievers.


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## christine48 (10 February 2013)

That may be so, don't forget the mare will have had a lot of influence. I just think in the current market where breeders are struggling to sell and horses are going for we'll below their market value we have a responsibility to uphold. At least if a mare and stallion have been assessed and approved by a knowledgable panel it increases the chance of breeding soundness  and trainability.
I think we are all aware that there are too many horses being bred at the moment and we should strive to breed from approved, graded or performance mares and stallions.


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## eventrider23 (10 February 2013)

magic104 said:



			Loved the ID boys they were super.  Loved Arco & his boys.  My companions fell for Clinton big time!!  The whole thing was well run & it is only in it's 3rd year.   Offspring loved the chocolate cake.  Everyone we spoke to were just so nice.  Loved Dane Rawllins masterclass.  In fact loved my 2 days.
		
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Magic - Clinton???  Who was that?


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## htobago (10 February 2013)

Just a little note on the Arab debate - I have said this many times before (on the previous occasions when we've had the exact same discussion about Tobago ) but for those who only want to use stallions that are proven under saddle, there is a choice of very good Arabs and Anglos. 

Too many to name them all (and that's what Google is for) but the Biddesden stallions, obviously, and Avonbrook on here has the super Marcus Aurelius: NaStA performance-tested, AHS Premium Stallion, 4th at HOYS, now advanced endurance... He was at the Hartpury stallion parade and looking splendid.


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## shirleyno2 (10 February 2013)

I had a very good stallion get spun at his first grading!!
I also had one get spun with one studbook, passed with another!!
And I'm sure we can all name Olympic and Grand Prix stallions that have been spun by the biggest of European Studbooks as a young horse and then grade when older, and hey presto suddenly they are graded with several studbooks - without progeny out there winning yet!!!!!
Gradings - like buying a lottery ticket! That said I agree that on the whole we should stick to graded stallions but judge every stallion as an individual / on individual circumstances.
 Thought OMT looked a super sort but I missed him showcase!
Magic - - defo not Clinton!!


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## emlybob (10 February 2013)

To me, I didnt like the way theat OMT's rider had to kick him every stride round the arena. To me the horse lacked quality and movement, so not for me but everyone is after something different. I knew him as a young horse and very much disliked his attitude to work then, and to see him so many years on, nothing has changed. And the fact that he has failed gradings makes me question his quality even more.

On the other hand his sire Java Tiger was one of the most phenomenal and influential TB stallions in the sports horse industry. OMT'S is nothing at all like his father but with Java tigers influence maybe can skip a generation.

Sadly I liked nothing about the horse, but many people thought he looked fantastic. I breed for dressage so would be looking for a different thing.

I thought Archie was fantastic as always. Solaris Amoureux another super stallion. Decanter really can move and is exceptionally well gained so all credit goes to his rider.

The Woodlander stallions all super, the question of whether the 2 and 1/2 year olds should have been presented under saddle is another story!!

I am sure I will get left on for my comments but again, only my opinion


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## woodlander (10 February 2013)

no_no_nanette said:



			I think that it could be significant that it's a first post from this contributor, which points to a wind-up.  Agree with you floradora, sad and silly, and inaccurate.

Actually it was a fabulous weekend, the best SSGB yet, and feedback from Lynne Crowden underlines what a friendly and welcoming atmosphere there was at this event, not to speak of many fantastic stallions.  The sight of the great Arko with his two stallion sons all together in the arena was memorable, as were the John Whitaker demo and Dane Rawlins masterclass.  The exciting thing about the two days is how many very impressive young stallions are beginning to come through now, not least the Woodlander boys, and Brendon Stud's hugely impressive Clintissimo stallion, to mention just a few.  It was also so good to see the two RID stallions and stunning pony stallions at the event, underlining the variety of talent that we have in the UK.  I'm looking forward to 2014 already, and may the two stallion shows that are really getting established at Hartpury and Addington go from strength to strength without being criticised and carped at.  Its time that we all worked together to promote the talent that we have in this country, and stopped allowing a few divisive voices to damage that unity.
		
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Thank you No No Nanette.....Can I refer our critics to a really sensible thread on the BD Group facebook page where we all shared balanced and useful opinions about the riding of young horses and, in particular, stallions. We do not need blindly to pursue the European model or to sacrifice our horses on the alter of early pressure. I would ask however that those of you who feel so strongly about the riding of rising three year olds take on board that every horse is different and that judgement is at the heart of things.

There are over 80 Woodlander prefixed horses that we bred or produced who have performed to a good age with BD and all have been started in the same way....one that suits their maturity both physical and mental. There are many Woodlander horses well into double digits some having gone to GP and Inter II and they too were started in the same way. The same method produced Farouche, Wavavoom, Dornroeschen, Rockstar, Markies,to name but a few. Stallions are in the top 1% of their breed and are, mostly, stronger built but those with more thoroughbred or trakehner take more time to mature sometimes.

I was very proud of our babies who, like many horses I have taken hunting in the past, were more excitable the second time they went out than they were the first. I would not do anything different in the future and I would welcome anyone who wished to visit the stud and see how we work first hand.


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## Truly (11 February 2013)

I do believe some horses are mentally more capable in coping with being backed at a younger age  than others and also that some are more mature muscularly than others ...however research shows that all breeds of horses (give or take a few months) fuse their growth plates at approximately the same time...starting from the ground upwards and finishing at the poll.

Here is a chart showing the age of growth plate fusion which I googled.
http://www.naturalhorsetraining.com/images/HorseGrowthPlates.jpg


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## woodlander (11 February 2013)

Hi Truly,

Well named. Your google is, I think, right. One of the key and abvious visual signs of whether to start a horse is the "knee" joint when most of the early work with any horse is carried largely on the front legs. "Open" knees are a a real good reason to wait whatever any other agenda.

I believe that the horse is growing up until the age of six and like any young athlete (human too) should not be overfaced or overworked. However, there is also research that has shown that the soft tissue conditioning of a horse is critical before the age of six. If there hasn't been a degree of athleticising by that stage, it is difficult to ask later for more athletic or gymnastic efforts.

We must also recognize that although we expect horses to have a physical life, they are not all athletes and those that are not, forced into work at whatever age, will suffer more.


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## christine48 (11 February 2013)

Hi Woodlander, your boys were some of the stallions who stood out. However I'd like to see Clapton in a year or twos time as idid think he looked immature.


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## JanetGeorge (11 February 2013)

christine48 said:



			Hi Woodlander, your boys were some of the stallions who stood out. However I'd like to see Clapton in a year or twos time as idid think he looked immature.
		
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And were you surprised??  He IS a 3 year old and not TOO many of them look 'mature' (unless they've been stuffed to the gills and are over-topped! )


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## crellow4 (11 February 2013)

I would like vey much to participate in the discussion on the Face Book page. However this is a closed group and despite sending 2 requests to join I have not been accepted. I've not had an explanation why I'm not deemed suitable to join the page.........


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## Sportznight (11 February 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			And were you surprised??  He IS a 3 year old and not TOO many of them look 'mature' (unless they've been stuffed to the gills and are over-topped! )
		
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LOL!!!  As ever, good point, well made, Janet


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## no_no_nanette (11 February 2013)

woodlander said:



			I would ask however that those of you who feel so strongly about the riding of rising three year olds take on board that every horse is different and that judgement is at the heart of things.

There are over 80 Woodlander prefixed horses that we bred or produced who have performed to a good age with BD and all have been started in the same way....one that suits their maturity both physical and mental. There are many Woodlander horses well into double digits some having gone to GP and Inter II and they too were started in the same way. The same method produced Farouche, Wavavoom, Dornroeschen, Rockstar, Markies,to name but a few. Stallions are in the top 1% of their breed and are, mostly, stronger built but those with more thoroughbred or trakehner take more time to mature sometimes.
		
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I have a monster three year old who is a case in point!  Because of his size and after advice from Jason Webb he went to be very lightly and briefly started as a two year-old, to introduce him to the idea of having a rider on his back.  (As Jason said, it might be daunting for any rider to get on to the back of an unbroken 17.3 four year-old for the first time!).  At 3 1/2 he has been long-reined out around the farm, and again lightly worked in the school under saddle before being turned away.  He will be brought back into work in the spring, but again ridden lightly and carefully, as while I hope he's achieved his full height, he is definitely still putting on substance and bone, so the growing is continuing!  There's no way that I would have wanted to have either left him until four, nor worked him continuously from a late two-year-old.  My Holstein x TB on the other hand it will probably be appropriate to leave until he's almost four.  It's very definitely "horses for courses", and advice from a skilled and experienced producer is sometimes worth its weight in gold. 

Anyway, sorry, this has rather taken us off-subject .....  Maybe we need another thread on producing young horses!


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## Holding (11 February 2013)

Can I ask what everyone thought about Treliver Decanter? I'm very keen on using him in the future, and so far have only heard good things.


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## ritajennings (11 February 2013)

I would like to thank everyone who has complimented Archie , I am thrilled that he pleased again, it makes all the hard work well worth while. Rita x


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## no_no_nanette (11 February 2013)

Holding said:



			Can I ask what everyone thought about Treliver Decanter? I'm very keen on using him in the future, and so far have only heard good things.
		
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I thought that he was even more impressive in person than his photo would suggest.  He had really powerful hindleg movement, and was impressive in extended trot, without the front leg movement being over-exaggerated.  No real reservations about his paces or conformation.  He's a more substantial type than some of the modern dressage horses that seem to be fashionable on the continent, but personally I like that.  If I was into dressage and had a suitable mare, he would certainly be on a shortlist!


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## no_no_nanette (11 February 2013)

PS Rita, Archie did look fantastic at the SSGB!  We are very thrilled with Hattie's first red ribbon at a very young age, evidence that his offspring continue to be an amazing advertisement for him!


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## Yorketown (11 February 2013)

I love Decanter!!  I have a 2 year old by him who I am very pleased with so my mare is going back to him this year.  So far my boy has shown a nice calm temperament and seems to cotton on very quickly to what is being asked of him (he&#8217;s only 2 so we are just talking about basic leading and handling etiquette)!  The only thing is that he does not look very big at the moment but my mare is only 15h and it was her first foal.  All the other Decanter offspring I have seen locally are a lot bigger!!


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## christine48 (11 February 2013)

ritajennings said:



			I would like to thank everyone who has complimented Archie , I am thrilled that he pleased again, it makes all the hard work well worth while. Rita x
		
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I loved him


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## christine48 (11 February 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			And were you surprised??  He IS a 3 year old and not TOO many of them look 'mature' (unless they've been stuffed to the gills and are over-topped! )
		
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No I wasn't surprised, he looked very weak compared with the other 3 yr old who I believe is a few months older. As I say I would love to see what he matures into.


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## magic104 (11 February 2013)

eventrider23 said:



			Magic - Clinton???  Who was that?
		
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Sorry eventrider23, blame old age it was Craig they fell for


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## magic104 (11 February 2013)

emlybob said:



			To me, I didnt like the way theat OMT's rider had to kick him every stride round the arena. To me the horse lacked quality and movement, so not for me but everyone is after something different. I knew him as a young horse and very much disliked his attitude to work then, and to see him so many years on, nothing has changed. And the fact that he has failed gradings makes me question his quality even more.
		
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And that is exactly what I witnessed.  A horse with a great engine, but just ploughed his way round the arena.  His rider looked to be trying her best to hold him up.  It was made worse because he was being shown on the dressage day.  Sorry those of you that failed to notice it, but he did not work through correctly.


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## eventrider23 (11 February 2013)

Ah well magic having seen how besotted your daughter was with him there I'm not surprised she is in love lol!


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## AdorableAlice (11 February 2013)

ritajennings said:



			I would like to thank everyone who has complimented Archie , I am thrilled that he pleased again, it makes all the hard work well worth while. Rita x
		
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Your fabulous stallion pleases me and many others who have his stock on the ground, every day.  Long may his success continue and long may his off spring make you, as his owner, breeder and producer very proud.


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## magic104 (11 February 2013)

eventrider23 said:



			Ah well magic having seen how besotted your daughter was with him there I'm not surprised she is in love lol!
		
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Oh tell me about it.  All I have had is please can we use him, they would have such a lovely baby!  Told her to save her pennies it will be cheaper to buy a foal.  Then you get, yes but it won't be his & Flick's foal.  I have to wonder sometimes if she remembers she is a grown-up, it feels like I am dealing with a young teen.


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## magic104 (11 February 2013)

ritajennings said:



			I would like to thank everyone who has complimented Archie , I am thrilled that he pleased again, it makes all the hard work well worth while. Rita x
		
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As I said both your's & Rebel were just super to watch & a real promotion for the ID.  My daughter & cousin's daughter were very impressed (as was I) with his son.  Shows why the ID x TB has remained popular for so many years.


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## magic104 (11 February 2013)

Truly said:



			I do believe some horses are mentally more capable in coping with being backed at a younger age  than others and also that some are more mature muscularly than others ...however research shows that all breeds of horses (give or take a few months) fuse their growth plates at approximately the same time...starting from the ground upwards and finishing at the poll.

Here is a chart showing the age of growth plate fusion which I googled.
http://www.naturalhorsetraining.com/images/HorseGrowthPlates.jpg

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I think there is a difference to being backed & doing a display in sitting trot & even being asked for flying changes.  IMHO the 1st one did not look a big mature sort either, he looked like the baby he is.  As I said it goes against everything I was ever taught.  They have enough years under saddle what harm is there in giving them those extra few months to grow into themselves both mentally & physically?  I can just imagine the up roar if we started sending 13 year olds out to work!


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## woodlander (12 February 2013)

Hi Magic,
I hesitate to comment as everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't know which breed of horses you work with as I don't know who you are. 

I would say, categorically, that at no time was any horse asked for a change. Debonair is very balanced and clearly preferred to change his leg and then our rider, with her experience chose to follow his change of direction.I would also add that supple sitting trot practiced for about and one minute or so of trot is not a big deal and gave the youngster more confidence that the rising trot when he was so green.

I have never and would never dream of posting on any forum something which was only designed to detract and even when offered the opportunity and the cause I have avoided this.  Why is it not better to say which stallions you liked, and why, and not enter into criticism, insults and offence to some really legendary jumping and event horses.

I am not accusing you of this merely making a very general comment.


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## Maesfen (12 February 2013)

woodlander said:



			I have never and would never dream of posting on any forum something which was only designed to detract and even when offered the opportunity and the cause I have avoided this.  Why is it not better to say which stallions you liked, and why, and not enter into criticism, insults and offence to some really legendary jumping and event horses.

I am not accusing you of this merely making a very general comment.
		
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I think this is a valid comment for everyone TBH no matter which forum they're on.  If you can't be polite or positive, say nothing at all.  If they want to slag something/one off then do it privately and not on a public forum which could affect the businesses and reputation of those 'offended against'.  It's easy and polite enough to say it's not their cup of tea if asked but to downright publicly criticise on a forum about a stallion is nasty and leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.  I'm not worried about what you say in actual private conversation to anyone, just keep a decent moral code when on a forum.


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## no_no_nanette (12 February 2013)

Maesfen said:



			I think this is a valid comment for everyone TBH no matter which forum they're on.  If you can't be polite or positive, say nothing at all.  If they want to slag something/one off then do it privately and not on a public forum which could affect the businesses and reputation of those 'offended against'.  It's easy and polite enough to say it's not their cup of tea if asked but to downright publicly criticise on a forum about a stallion is nasty and leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.  I'm not worried about what you say in actual private conversation to anyone, just keep a decent moral code when on a forum.
		
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*Like*


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## Sportznight (12 February 2013)

Maesfen said:



			I think this is a valid comment for everyone TBH no matter which forum they're on.  If you can't be polite or positive, say nothing at all.  If they want to slag something/one off then do it privately and not on a public forum which could affect the businesses and reputation of those 'offended against'.  It's easy and polite enough to say it's not their cup of tea if asked but to downright publicly criticise on a forum about a stallion is nasty and leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.  I'm not worried about what you say in actual private conversation to anyone, just keep a decent moral code when on a forum.
		
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^^^ This!!


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## Fahrenheit (12 February 2013)

Maesfen said:



			I think this is a valid comment for everyone TBH no matter which forum they're on.  If you can't be polite or positive, say nothing at all.  If they want to slag something/one off then do it privately and not on a public forum which could affect the businesses and reputation of those 'offended against'.  It's easy and polite enough to say it's not their cup of tea if asked but to downright publicly criticise on a forum about a stallion is nasty and leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.  I'm not worried about what you say in actual private conversation to anyone, just keep a decent moral code when on a forum.
		
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*like*


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## woodlander (12 February 2013)

Yep..we are mostly decent people who get sucked into this protocol of criticism. Let's be positive...british breeding needs this. We have the best riders in the world who have blended the best of the continental approach (horses and training) with something special from the UK. Let's do the same with breeding.


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## Truly (12 February 2013)

Maesfen said:



			I think this is a valid comment for everyone TBH no matter which forum they're on.  If you can't be polite or positive, say nothing at all.  If they want to slag something/one off then do it privately and not on a public forum which could affect the businesses and reputation of those 'offended against'.  It's easy and polite enough to say it's not their cup of tea if asked but to downright publicly criticise on a forum about a stallion is nasty and leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.  I'm not worried about what you say in actual private conversation to anyone, just keep a decent moral code when on a forum.
		
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*Big Like*


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## JanetGeorge (12 February 2013)

magic104 said:



			I think there is a difference to being backed & doing a display in sitting trot & even being asked for flying changes.  IMHO the 1st one did not look a big mature sort either, he looked like the baby he is.  As I said it goes against everything I was ever taught.  They have enough years under saddle what harm is there in giving them those extra few months to grow into themselves both mentally & physically?  I can just imagine the up roar if we started sending 13 year olds out to work!
		
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Read the nice, polite, and very restrained replies to your post magic104 - but they're TOO polite IMHO!  Have you produced ONE horse who has got a write-up in H&H??  

woodlander is one of THE top breeders in the UK - and her horses continually succeed and BREED success.  This is because she knows what she is doing!  She knows her horses and knows what is 'right' for them.  And probably no-one in British breeding has made their mark in Europe quite as decisively in the past 10 years!

When I've been breeding for as long as woodlander has - and if (God forbid) I'd had 20% of the success she has had - I would still NOT consider myself to be qualified to criticise!!  I wouldn't want to look that stupid! 

I have the greatest admiration for breeders who put their stallions on public display at these events - particularly the young ones.  They are testosterone-fuelled events and behaviour CAN be a bit unpredictable!  And you open yourself up to all the armchair experts - many of whom have never ridden or handled even a dozey quiet stallion!

(And - just for the record - a lot of 13 year olds would be MUCH improved by sending them out to do a bit of productive work at week-ends!!)


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## shirleyno2 (12 February 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			I have the greatest admiration for breeders who put their stallions on public display at these events - particularly the young ones.  They are testosterone-fuelled events and behaviour CAN be a bit unpredictable!  And you open yourself up to all the armchair experts - many of whom have never ridden or handled even a dozey quiet stallion!

(And - just for the record - a lot of 13 year olds would be MUCH improved by sending them out to do a bit of productive work at week-ends!!)
		
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"LIKE"
Top bird Janet George!!!

And hey you only have to go to any show and see how the older stallions can make us all look wallies on their day


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## JanetGeorge (12 February 2013)

shirleyno2 said:



			"LIKE"
Top bird Janet George!!!

And hey you only have to go to any show and see how the older stallions can make us all look wallies on their day
		
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Ta Shirley!  And you don't need to tell me about older stallions making us look like wallies!  My old boy is 22 - and undoubtedly THE most mannered, sweet and controllable stallion in the WORLD.  He doesn't go out - he's a home boy - but I NEVER let mare owners watch him covering.  Some days he strolls out, gets into the covering yard and insists on eating ANY spare grass in the yard and sometimes even having a roll before turning his attentions to a mare who is gagging for it - but on the odd occasion (especially if it's a TB or WB mare) I end up flat on my face as he hurls himself at her like a randy 3 year old!  God only knows what he'd do if I took him out in public - his sense of humour would undoubtedly ensure I ended up looking like an idiot!


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## woodlander (12 February 2013)

I think we have run this one to the end...don't you. I will reiterate that if anyone wants to come and watch the work with the babies and discuss...they are more than welcome. Just PM me


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## Delicious_D (13 February 2013)

Just to add, i have the greatest respect for the Woodlander stud, time and time again using common sense and old fashioned horsemandship to breed wonderful horses who are fantastic examples of their breed. All horses are not robots, you cannot predict their behaviours. I will say wavavoom is my favourite, i love his oranginess 

I do not one a woodlander horse, however my friend owns one by Rockstar, fab horse.


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## magic104 (13 February 2013)

Maesfen said:



			I think this is a valid comment for everyone TBH no matter which forum they're on.  If you can't be polite or positive, say nothing at all.  If they want to slag something/one off then do it privately and not on a public forum which could affect the businesses and reputation of those 'offended against'.  It's easy and polite enough to say it's not their cup of tea if asked but to downright publicly criticise on a forum about a stallion is nasty and leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.  I'm not worried about what you say in actual private conversation to anyone, just keep a decent moral code when on a forum.
		
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Oh & where have I been rude??  So what you are all saying is that if we do not agree with what we saw we are not permitted to voice our opinions if it goes against the pack?  And sorry but it is irrelavant whether someone has produced a top horse where working 2yo's are concerned.  There were a number of people who were a bit shocked at how young they were & what was being asked.  Someone actually said "No one will be brave enough to speak against them".  Yet in the past plenty of people have raised concerns at seeing 2yo's being backed & ridden away.  It seems though because these are Woodlander horses it is ok.  My concern & I am sure I stated this earlier is that there will be people watching who now think this is ok & will not have the experience to judge whether their 2yo is mature metally or physically.  Will not have the balance needed for such a young horse.  It should not be excepted as the norm as there is plenty of evidence that states too much damage can be done & it can shorten the horses working life.


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## Maesfen (13 February 2013)

What I'm asking anyone, not just you M, is just don't be so quick to pull horses or people/riders to pieces on an open forum whether you believe it or not; if it was derogatory about you or your horses, you wouldn't like it so why dish it out to others, it's not fair or professional and I'm sure most on here would prefer to be thought of as a professional type of person with professional standards even though many, myself included, are amateurs at this breeding game.  
Some will agree with what's been written about the different stallions, some won't; I can't say as I wasn't there but what I can say is I absolutely agree with you about the breaking and riding of such young horses.  With the exception of racing TBs, it goes completely against what I have ever been taught or put into practice myself and I wouldn't want it to become more commonplace just because a very successful stud does it so it must be alright type attitude from people that really don't appreciate the damage they can do to their young horses or have the ability of the stud's staff.  It obviously works for that stud, that can't and shouldn't be denied (much as I would like to I'm afraid) but not many people (thank goodness) have the same amount of experience of breeding and breaking dressage youngsters as they do.  What anyone does with their own stock is of course entirely up to them but like you Magic, I would hate for others to think it's the norm but sadly that would be the overall impression given by displaying those young colts under saddle.


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## Sportznight (14 February 2013)

There really does need to be a *like* button on this forum!  Extremely well said MF!  You took the words right out of my finger tips!


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## chrissie1 (14 February 2013)

Anyone who has ever taken a youngster to an Evaluation, or as we have been involved in while helping friends going to the UK KWPN inspections, will accept that their pride and joy will be praised AND criticised, in public with scores posted for all to see.

It may be that the vet gives a low score,everyone who wasn't there to hear what was said will be asking themselves why.  Or the vet marked highly but the  movement score was  low.

People have passed comment and judgement on the Internet on individual horses scores at Evaluations, freely discussing what they thought of the animal concerned whether it be its conformation, movement, condition,you name it.

So I fail to see the difference in saying what you saw and what you thought of a stallion at an event such as Addington.  Plenty of comments have been passed about stallions both there and Hartpury, 'light of bone', 'poor attitude', 'wasn't scopey enough in front over a  jump' etc.

I went to Hartpury but not having 'staff' at home had to leave before the dressage stallions, so drove to Addington specifically to see one stallion.


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## christine48 (14 February 2013)

chrissie1 said:



			Anyone who has ever taken a youngster to an Evaluation, or as we have been involved in while helping friends going to the UK KWPN inspections, will accept that their pride and joy will be praised AND criticised, in public with scores posted for all to see.

It may be that the vet gives a low score,everyone who wasn't there to hear what was said will be asking themselves why.  Or the vet marked highly but the  movement score was  low.

People have passed comment and judgement on the Internet on individual horses scores at Evaluations, freely discussing what they thought of the animal concerned whether it be its conformation, movement, condition,you name it.

So I fail to see the difference in saying what you saw and what you thought of a stallion at an event such as Addington.  Plenty of comments have been passed about stallions both there and Hartpury, 'light of bone', 'poor attitude', 'wasn't scopey enough in front over a  jump' etc.

I went to Hartpury but not having 'staff' at home had to leave before the dressage stallions, so drove to Addington specifically to see one stallion.
		
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Like!


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## sallyf (14 February 2013)

christine48 said:



			Like!
		
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Like too


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## tristar (14 February 2013)

totally agree with magic on this one, it does'nt matter who you are if you work horses too young it sets  bad example and makes you wonder if they really are so knowledgable.

4 years old is plenty early enough to  start ridden  work with any horse.

i say this from not only my own experience from breaking  and training horses, but seeing what has actually been the sad end result from working horses too young.


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