# Planning - agricultural barn



## LOZHUG (15 March 2013)

Hi,

Sorry not sure where to post this post so sorry if it's in the wrong place.

I have recently purchased some land which has stone stables and a delapatated Metal barn on it. Does anyone know from experience whether I will need planning permission to replace it?
I have taken loads of pictures of the old barn to prove it was there and how it was etc

Not sure if I have made this up or read it somewhere but if it's an agricultural barn you don't need planning? 

Thanks in advance


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## birchave0 (15 March 2013)

you will need planning permission to replace, but it won't require building regs
give your local planning office a ring, they are usually very helpful

I don't think you need permission for an open sided agricultural shed, like a pole barn, but if it's closed in you do


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## foxy1 (15 March 2013)

Is the land agricultural or has it a change of use to equestrian? How many acres of land is there with it? Is there a concrete base/footings under the barn?


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## lachlanandmarcus (15 March 2013)

Ok if it was a new building of an agric barn and the property was more than 5 hectares, about 12 acres, then you can build a small eg up to 40x60 foot by about 12 high for non livestock purposes without PP but you would still have to submit an agricultural prenotification notice which gives the council 28 days to look at whether it qualifies. If they don't say pp is needed within 28 days you can go ahead. 
Under 5 hectares you do need PP so would have to justify it in agricultural terms. 

Replacing an existing building - well repair doesn't need PP. replacement im not sure but if you change anything about it - any different dimensions, or materials might risk them saying no so I would go for repair!!! so depends on whether you are happy with what's there otherw than the condition it's in. NB if holding is over 5 hectares then certain extension may be able to be done under agricultural notification.

We did require building warrant for building regs for ours- this can be a lot more expensive than the PP app so budget for that also it only lasts 3 years by which time building must be up.

Note that any move to house livestock in a barn that was PP or agricultural notification limited to storage would require PP. and in theory horses will always require PP change of use even if farm livestock in there before. However, since horses are likely to be less smelly and noisy than the previous inhabitants it might be you get no complaints to the council!!


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## horselib (15 March 2013)

We had a very delapitated cow barn of wood and metal construction on our property when we bought it 3 years ago as well as several other good condition barns .It already had a concrete base.We wanted to repace it with a modern barn of exacly the same foot print just box profile with brick lower half.
We were told after much consultation with Pembrokeshire council that we needed to apply for full planning permission even though it was replacing the same fooprint and we had to pay for full planning .We have around 15 acres.
Also be aware that as we wanted to use it for horses (we don't have any oher livestock)even though we have equestrian use for the property we had to state equestrian use on the application.
We got the planning ok.


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## LOZHUG (15 March 2013)

The land is 5 and a half acres. Not sure what class of use it is under. How would I find out?
The current barn has caved in and only some of the wooden beams are holding what's left together with metal sheets hanging all over the shop. Not sure what the base is as you cant see it for debris brambles and overgrowth. Would be looking to take it down clear the area put a half brick am half sheet up in the same area.
I have phones my planning department twice now and they are always on lunch!


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## amandap (15 March 2013)

I can't help but don't take it down until you know for sure. I got caught out with that some years ago with a small animal shed. They wouldn't let me put it up again without planning (I wouldn't get they gleefully told me) because I had taken it down.


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## lachlanandmarcus (15 March 2013)

If there's no paperwork and planners don't have any applications on file then it is likely to be agricultural storage. Given the size of the holding definitely do not knock anything down until/ unless you have permission to replace. Sounds like it would need pp due to size of holding and not being exact repair/replacement of what's there.

If you leave it up for now at least you always have the option of 'repair' of the existing building.


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## RutlandH2O (15 March 2013)

Seven years ago, we went to planning to find out what we had to do to extend our 60' x 45' polebarn another 30' x 45.' They told us we had to have at least 5 hectares (which is 12.35 acres), use the structure for agricultural purposes, and could not enclose the barn or put a down a concrete floor throughout. We have 13.5 acres, we would be using the structure to overwinter our Shire horses,  we were enclosing a portion of the extension to match the existing barn, and were concreting small areas of uneven ground to make the floor level. One bright spark actually asked us if we would be using the structure for human habitation! Once they received word that all was tickity boo, we were told to go ahead with the work without further consultation or constraints. I had them put that in writing, which they did.


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## foxy1 (15 March 2013)

What lachlanandmarcus said, you don't have enough land for an agricultural determination


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## sport horse (15 March 2013)

You will not qualify for the 28days notice for agricultural buildings unless you have an Agricultural Holding Number from DEFRA.

If it is for equine and not agriculture you may have a huge fight depending on your local council. I went through this myself about 8 years ago when I wanted to take down an old pole barn and replace it with a slightly larger modern building so that I can mechanically stack and store big bales.

I have an agriculural holding number but I was turned down on the 28 days notice on a spurious claim that I was too near a disused airfield - my neighbour nearer this airfield had had an application passed under the same scheme 8 months earlier.

I put in a full agricultural application and this was turned down on the basis there was not enough agriculture ( I own 40 acres, rent another 10,  make hay and run cattle as well as breeding, producing and competing show jumpers!)

I eventually got it on a full application providing details of quantities of hay & straw used etc. They still wanted to fight it by saying that I would not use the amount of food stuff. I won by finding out the source of data used by the council's consultant and when I used it I got the same answer that my vets and I had provided, not the answer the consultants came up with. I then sent all this in and suggested that either the council's consultants wer not very good at maths or were.......?  (corrupt?!)  The planning came through 2 days later!!

I strongly suggest that you do not under any circumstances take down the remains of your old building and if you want any easy life I would renovate it if at all possible.

Not only did my saga cost me dearly in planning fees it also went on for nearly two years during which time the steel for the barn went up £12,000.


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## lachlanandmarcus (15 March 2013)

sport horse said:



			You will not qualify for the 28days notice for agricultural buildings unless you have an Agricultural Holding Number from DEFRA..
		
Click to expand...

This is true, but by itself not sufficient, for almost all works the holding must also be over 5 hectares. (Since you can get a holding number for a garden flat I wouldn't want people thinking that the holding number was enough to qualify to use the process)


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## Honey08 (15 March 2013)

amandap said:



			I can't help but don't take it down until you know for sure. I got caught out with that some years ago with a small animal shed. They wouldn't let me put it up again without planning (I wouldn't get they gleefully told me) because I had taken it down.
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't take it down if you can possibly help it - see if you can repair the beams and patch up the metal for now.  Most councils work on the premises of when its down it doesn't exist, no matter what photos you have.  Round us, once the roof is gone it doesn't count as a building in the council's eyes.  

The other thing is how visible is it?  Try and do it it as unobviously as possible too.  Try and find out how neighbours have got on with planning applications etc, or have a consultation with a local architect  and get their advice before you ring the council - once they are involved there is no going back...!!


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## horselib (15 March 2013)

Forgot to mention  'bats' If there is any sign of bats using the barn even if it is very tumbled down there is a whole new set of problems and before planning is granted a 'bat survey' will have to be done
This can be quite costly and could be really extend the timeframe.
They can even tell you what time of year you can do the work (if they grant permission)


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## LOZHUG (16 March 2013)

Thank you for your replies and comments. I am trying to see what is what before gettng planning involved but y the looks of it I will need to get them involved to see what I need to do etc

Here are some pics I took today it is passed repair!










Sorry if they are massive!


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## LOZHUG (17 March 2013)

Anyone any ideas or advice now I have included a picture?

Thanks


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## Polos Mum (17 March 2013)

Get your local planning officer out for an informal chat, they will give you their views for free and save you loads of time and expence putting in applications that will be rejected. 
Ultimately they will decide so the sooner you have them on side the better. 
Here after a chat I was allowed to build a 26 by 12 m concrete block barn in the middle of a equestrian green field site - only limitation is that it's for private use. Planning fee was a few £100 and I drew the plans myself (and I'm no artist!)


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## LOZHUG (17 March 2013)

Thanks Polos Mum and everyone else


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