# Rising 3 year ridden at BEF show.



## Spottyappy (8 January 2017)

https://www.facebook.com/pg/horseandhounddressage/videos/?ref=page_internal
I have emailed the BEF asking for their opinion on the above.
A recently backed, rising 3 year old being ridden, is not acceptable imho.
At most if not all  ridden shows I have attended, the minimum criteria for a ridden class is 4 years of age.


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## popsdosh (8 January 2017)

Spottyappy said:



https://www.facebook.com/pg/horseandhounddressage/videos/?ref=page_internal
I have emailed the BEF asking for their opinion on the above.
A recently backed, rising 3 year old being ridden, is not acceptable imho.
At most if not all  ridden shows I have attended, the minimum criteria for a ridden class is 4 years of age.
		
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Dont know the circumstances as that link is only any good if your a member of that group!  Quick explanation may help!

I am guessing because of the timing it is to do with Bury farm yesterday and for what its worth there were several 2014 born stallions there . They were doing no more than they would at home. They are 3yos its pretty normal to be riding them.


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## stormox (8 January 2017)

In Europe at the sales, gradings etc it is  normal for rising 3 yr olds to be displayed under saddle. Whether we think it bad or good I am pretty sure it must be allowed under their rules.


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## Spottyappy (8 January 2017)

The link should take you to the horse and hound dressage site, not a group, popsdosh?
Stôrmox, that's interesting, but something that is alien to me, and probably many Brits, too!


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## Cortez (8 January 2017)

Nothing bad to see here? Horse is ridden in a basic trot and a very open canter, and is plainly not struggling. Why is everyone getting in such a state?


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## popsdosh (8 January 2017)

Spottyappy said:



			The link should take you to the horse and hound dressage site, not a group, popsdosh?
Stôrmox, that's interesting, but something that is alien to me, and probably many Brits, too!
		
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You would have been having kittens if you had seen the SJ ones then.  Seriously they are experienced producers who are not likely to want to screw up their young stallions!


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## milliepops (8 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Nothing bad to see here? Horse is ridden in a basic trot and a very open canter, and is plainly not struggling. Why is everyone getting in such a state?
		
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This was my first reaction too. There was similar outrage a couple of months ago over a slightly older horse. They are bred to have outstanding natural balance and paces so appear to be at a more advanced stage than they really are, imo. 

It's not in the stud's  interest to hammer these young horses, if they stay in work to a good age then the financial reward (as well as the personal enjoyment and kudos) is so much greater  so I don't think it's fair to assume they are being worked hard.


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## ycbm (8 January 2017)

Spottyappy said:



https://www.facebook.com/pg/horseandhounddressage/videos/?ref=page_internal
I have emailed the BEF asking for their opinion on the above.
A recently backed, rising 3 year old being ridden, is not acceptable imho.
At most if not all  ridden shows I have attended, the minimum criteria for a ridden class is 4 years of age.
		
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I agree with you. Technically they may have turned three on January 1st, a week ago. but few of them will be within  3 months or more of actually being three.  To get them prepared for that show they will, surely, have been in work several weeks as a minimum, though I would guess longer. In the interests of getting a quick economic return, they are, for me, being worked and ridden too young. I break three year olds. I have sat on two year olds. But I don't agree with this.


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## LD&S (8 January 2017)

I don't know anything much about youngsters but seem to remember a large number of american horses are backed at this age, maybe for whatever reason we as a nation are just starting youngsters older than most.


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## {97702} (8 January 2017)

I used to be on the same yard as the Woodlander Stud babies - I think it is safe to say that Lynne Crowden knows what she is doing by now and does not push youngsters too quickly


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## Cortez (8 January 2017)

I used to breed dressage horses, warmbloods, and would break them at 3 and finish off with a teeny tiny show, one Prelim test. They would have been under saddle at most 6 weeks by this time.

Valegro was broken at three.


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## ycbm (8 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			I used to breed dressage horses, warmbloods, and would break them at 3 and finish off with a teeny tiny show, one Prelim test. They would have been under saddle at most 6 weeks by this time.

Valegro was broken at three.
		
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If they are showing as three year olds now, they weren't anywhere near three when they were broken, were they?  Or is January 1st not used as the aging date for this type of horse?

I ride three year olds. But not two year olds.


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## milliepops (8 January 2017)

Lévrier;13456195 said:
			
		


			I used to be on the same yard as the Woodlander Stud babies - I think it is safe to say that Lynne Crowden knows what she is doing by now and does not push youngsters too quickly
		
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What would be the point?  It takes years to train a horse to the top levels so if it breaks at a young age, that's a huge waste of time and effort.


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## Cortez (8 January 2017)

It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the horses shown were started a couple of weeks before Christmas. The three year olds are all doing very basic, baby stuff. They are far from two year olds.


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## ycbm (8 January 2017)

milliepops said:



			What would be the point?  It takes years to train a horse to the top levels so if it breaks at a young age, that's a huge waste of time and effort.
		
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The point with the stallion shows is to start earning money from stud fees as soon as possible. I remember a pretty horrible video of Totilas' first son with a ham fisted and very heavy rider on, at a stallion show when he was only just three.


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## ycbm (8 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the horses shown were started a couple of weeks before Christmas. The three year olds are all doing very basic, baby stuff. They are far from two year olds.
		
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Would they seriously send off booking fees to an expensive show for a horse that's never carried a rider?


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## Cortez (8 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Would they seriously send off booking fees to an expensive show for a horse that's never carried a rider?
		
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Of course they would! Look, they are not back yard leisure riders here, they're professional producers. They know very well what they have and what it takes to get the horse ready to present.


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## millitiger (8 January 2017)

It's not something that sits comfortably with me.

There is no need to be sitting on a 2yro beyond greed imo, especially to take it to a stallion show to promote it for stud fees in the first week of its 3yro year.
Stick it in the field for another year and you'll still have plenty of time to get it in and ridden for 4yro classes, especially if you are experienced and the horse is naturally balanced and talented.

I'm not a fluffy bunny, have worked in some really top yards and understand these horses have a job and need to provide a return but I honestly don't see what harm waiting another year would do.


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## FfionWinnie (8 January 2017)

If it's the video of Bury farm stallion show it looks like a really green wobbly youngster ridden by a pro and bred to move. I bet it feels a lot less together than it looks. I could quite believe it was only just backed. These people are doing this professionally it's quite a different thing to us doing it. 

It reminds me a bit of a sheep dog man I know. He can achieve more in a 10 minute session with a young dog than I could in a month because his timing and handling is so impeccable.


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## Cortez (8 January 2017)

They're not promoting for stud fees; they're not graded yet. There is no harm in starting a well-grown, balanced, rising-3 year old IF you don't go crazy and push it beyond what its capable of doing. The majority of sportshorses are started at 3. Flat bred TB's are started at rising 2, worked very hard, and often have problems as a result.


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## Micropony (8 January 2017)

Does seem odd to me to be riding horses who haven't yet had their third birthday. I am sure these people know what they're doing, but I am glad my boy was three and a half before he had a rider on. His birthday is late May, so if he'd been shown under saddle at a January show at the beginning of his three year old year he would actually have only been just over two years and six months old. When I look at horses that age in the field, who are of equivalent breeding to those in this video, they don't look anything like mature enough to be started. Maybe these horses have been managed, fed and prepared/strengthened differently to get them ready to take a rider so soon?


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## TheMule (8 January 2017)

I think there's a huge difference between backing a horse in the summer as a 3yr old and backing it in the winter as a 2 year old.
There was uproar about it last year as well but the stud chose to do it again. They have their hardcore supporters but I think they are narrow-minded to publicly state that they know best and anyone expressing a different point of view is wrong. I don't really understand what they stand to gain?


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## Cortez (8 January 2017)

TheMule said:



			I think there's a huge difference between backing a horse in the summer as a 3yr old and backing it in the winter as a 2 year old.
There was uproar about it last year as well but the stud chose to do it again. They have their hardcore supporters but I think they are narrow-minded to publicly state that they know best and anyone expressing a different point of view is wrong. I don't really understand what they stand to gain?
		
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Erm, they've produced some of the top GP horses in Europe? I think you can be assured that they do, actually, know what they are at....

I used to back all my young WB's at rising three, did it for 15+ years and never had problems. Out of a couple of hundred there were two that I left for another year as they just wern't mature enough, but everything else went along sweetly, and many made it into FEI levels. It is the culture in the UK to leave everything to "mature"; in other places they merrily break horses at 3. I have no problem with it, IF the people doing the training are experienced enough to use judgement in the amount of work that the youngsters are capable of doing.


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## milliepops (8 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			If it's the video of Bury farm stallion show it looks like a really green wobbly youngster ridden by a pro and bred to move. I bet it feels a lot less together than it looks. I could quite believe it was only just backed. These people are doing this professionally it's quite a different thing to us doing it.
		
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Agree. The first one I watched changed canter lead several times in a really baby way but was quickly nannied back together,  it looked extremely green and not like a horse that had done much at all. 

Lynne Crowden commented in the H&H fb thread to give a little background on the type of conditioning work done before they are backed.

You can either take that at face value and trust that it's in her interests to not overproduce her horses... or you can form your own beliefs. I am happy to give the benefit of the doubt  because I just can't see how she would gain anything by ragging them round.


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## meleeka (8 January 2017)

They aren't physically ready for a rider at two, let alone mentally. Nobody doing this is thinking of the horses wellbeing.


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## Cortez (8 January 2017)

They are not two, they are probably 3 months shy of being three year olds. The owners and trainers are best qualified to evaluate the horse's physical and mental states, not you. The majority of sportshorses in europe are broken at 3, they seem to do just fine (cf Valegro). And as far as the horses wellbeing is concerned, I hardly think being a "green" wobbly, unbalanced 6/7/8 year old is helpful....


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## AdorableAlice (8 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Erm, they've produced some of the top GP horses in Europe? I think you can be assured that they do, actually, know what they are at....
		
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Of course they do and it is a shop window for them, but it does need to be remembered that this is for commercial gain and that is where the difference sits between us fun riders and pro riders.

They put the best to the best in the hope of producing the best offspring to achieve the highest possible financial return for them.  When the young horse is sold it is the new owners problem to produce it further and hope it stays sound, so in effect the risk sits wholly with the purchaser not the producer.  Whether it is acceptable to ride them so early in their lives is a question that has to be answered by the purchaser.


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## eggs (8 January 2017)

The auction riders in Holland and Germany take an unbacked three year old to auction ready in about six weeks.  It is not the same as one of us backing our precious youngsters.  I bred a Belgian warmblood who was very big and I was advised by two American professional riders to back his as a two year old.  As he wasn't being prepared for sale I left him until the spring of his fourth year to grow into him himself.

Just because it isn't the British way to back them young it doesn't mean it is wrong to do so.  Lightly sat on and then left to mature is probably not a bad thing as studies show that youngster bones benefit from an element of stress.


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## elliefiz (8 January 2017)

I don't think people understand the process of licencing and gaining approval for a stallion. This is how it works in Europe, licenced at 2, performance test at 3. There are a few exceptions to the rules but in the main this is how it is done. Lynne Crowden breeds to produce horses that are as good or as better as their European counterparts and her horses continually go to Germany and perform brilliantly in their performance tests, she is a credit to British breeding, no one has achieved even half of what she has. 99% of stallions approved by the studbooks such as Hanoverian, Oldenburg, etc have been produced in this fashion. If your horse comes from one of these studbooks then chances are they are products of this system. I have seen plenty of comments about this on Facebook and I find it frankly ridiculous the number of people getting hysterical then going out to ride their German bred dressage horse whose sire would have been put through the same system they claim to despise. If it bothers people so much then vote with your pocket, after all if breeders can't sell semen, if they can't sell horses, if they don't have people attending stallion shows and licencing then the system will have to change.


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## Fiona (8 January 2017)

I backed my mare when she was in the autumn of her three year old year, at about 3 and 7 months, and she's a TB bred to mature quickly...

That's early enough in my opinion,   had she been a big rangy horse rather than a small compact one I may have waited longer. 

I agree with A A about the motives behind this instance though...

Fiona


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## Cortez (8 January 2017)

Fiona said:



			I backed my mare when she was in the autumn of her three year old year, at about 3 and 7 months, and she's a TB bred to mature quickly...

That's early enough in my opinion,   had she been a big rangy horse rather than a small compact one I may have waited longer. 

I agree with A A about the motives behind this instance though...

Fiona
		
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Well, good for you. I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of top sportshorses competing today were broken at three. Hobby riders can do what they feel is best, getting all hysterical because a professional has chosen to start their young horses at a younger age is just plain silly IMO. Nobody is making it compulsory....


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## Willow1306 (8 January 2017)

I think it's really arrogant to produce such immature horses and claim it's fine. It's not. There is a huge amount of evidence to show that it's not and a huge amount of prematurely unsound (mentally & physically) horses to back this up. 

I also think it's ignorant to assume its fine because of who the owners & producers are; that similar approaches are employed on the continent is also a flawed argument.

I find it really sad that people truly believe that this is ok, either because a) professionals do it or b) they've got anecdotal evidence from their own experience that a horse they produced from a young age was, in their opinion,  fine and appeared to stay what they consider 'sound' to a good age. 

Lovely horses - would have been perfectly adequate to see them shown in hand or on the lunge.


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## popsdosh (8 January 2017)

I hate all the hypocrisy that surrounds this argument . For all those that have for years moaned that British breeding is not up to the European standards well there is staring you in the face the reason why.

The Europeans have always worked on a system that penalises weakness in the breed basically if it breaks you eat it and move on however us Brits dont have the stomach for that. Nobody is being forced to start their horses early but chances are if you buy an import it will have been backed and brought on from 2.5 yo its the system and works for them


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## popsdosh (8 January 2017)

Willow1306 said:



			I think it's really arrogant to produce such immature horses and claim it's fine. It's not. There is a huge amount of evidence to show that it's not and a huge amount of prematurely unsound (mentally & physically) horses to back this up. 

I also think it's ignorant to assume its fine because of who the owners & producers are; that similar approaches are employed on the continent is also a flawed argument.

I find it really sad that people truly believe that this is ok, either because a) professionals do it or b) they've got anecdotal evidence from their own experience that a horse they produced from a young age was, in their opinion,  fine and appeared to stay what they consider 'sound' to a good age. 

Lovely horses - would have been perfectly adequate to see them shown in hand or on the lunge.
		
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Thats fine its your own opinion.
What is the point in keeping an unsound horse thats not up to the work till its ten its better to find out at 3yo stage. If you go onto the continent they dont seem to suffer so much with lame v6,7,8 yos like we do in the UK and thats my observations.


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## Cortez (8 January 2017)

Willow1306 said:



			I think it's really arrogant to produce such immature horses and claim it's fine. It's not. There is a huge amount of evidence to show that it's not and a huge amount of prematurely unsound (mentally & physically) horses to back this up. 

I also think it's ignorant to assume its fine because of who the owners & producers are; that similar approaches are employed on the continent is also a flawed argument.

I find it really sad that people truly believe that this is ok, either because a) professionals do it or b) they've got anecdotal evidence from their own experience that a horse they produced from a young age was, in their opinion,  fine and appeared to stay what they consider 'sound' to a good age. 

Lovely horses - would have been perfectly adequate to see them shown in hand or on the lunge.
		
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Hmm...do you have any proof, I mean actual statistical proof, of this? I've bred/broken/produced over 200 warmblood horses over more than 30 years, 99% broken at 3, never had a major problem, many have gone on to compete at top level in dressage into their teens. I hear people talking about all the carnage that will ensue if horses are not left until they are, what? Six? before being sat on, but is it really better to have horses that are so green at 6/7/8 that they can't trot a circle and have no balance or muscles to carry a rider. Everything depends on HOW the horse is produced, less on when: waiting is not necessarily better if the person doing the training is not able to ride the horse well enough to help it.


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## rara007 (8 January 2017)

I've not got H+H paper version recently but presumably most weeks they're reporting on flat racing 2 and 3YOs?
How is a short trot and canter in the horses natural balance at rising 3, so technically 3, colts only, even comparable let alone something to get outraged about. Is it because 'horsey' people can relate (or like to think they can) to elite dressage more than they can racing? I'm not saying I agree with it, I've not really thought it over yet, just pointing out that H+H reports younger horses doing harder work weekly!


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## elliefiz (8 January 2017)

I have yet to see any scientific evidence that shows starting horses young breaks them. Instead everyone talks about the growth plates not closing etc but where is the evidence that these need to be closed for a horse to be ridden? Can someone provide a link to this?  I have read a lot from Hilary Clayton, she is a vet and highly respected, there is over 300 scientific works of hers that have been published. She promotes starting horses in gentle work at a young age, her book Conditioning Sport Horses actually talks about starting horses at 2 years of age.


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (8 January 2017)

Of course its for commercialism. I know its a bit of a controversial subject for some but a lot of these young horses end up having hocks, fetlocks and backs steroid injected by the time they are 10 (I know a top Dr rider does theirs at 4 as a matter of course). I know another event rider who drills their 2/3yr olds to see if they break or not...if they don't then they don't get shot. Its a dog eat dog world up there and the longer I'm in the horsey world the more I dislike watching top competition I personally dont think horses are ready to be backed till they are 7 looking at it from a skeletal development point of view...however surely if the muscles are developed from a slightly younger stage it helps hold correct bone structure? I know I read a study that racehorses that were ran as 2yr olds had a higher bone density? I dont back mine till they're 3.5/4. I dont agree with anything being sat on till its 3. There aren't that many competition horses now that make it to any age sound. I know someone brought up that valegero was backed early but look at the soundness issues behind closed doors with him. I also think that horses are put to injury because we're breeding many with massive flicky front movement with nothing behind (eg totilas) and then riding them in a way that only emphasis it...but that isn't going to change until judges change unfortunately...and I'm rambling off on a tangent.


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## popsdosh (8 January 2017)

Irish hunters were always highly prized this side of the water a lot of those celebrated their 3rd birthday hunting in Ireland yet the majority went on for many years never sick or sorry


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## ycbm (8 January 2017)

Can people possibly stop using words like hysterical and outraged, pretty please?  I don't see anyone getting either hysterical or outraged on this thread and for me it's spoiling a good discussion.


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## Tiddlypom (8 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Irish hunters were always highly prized this side of the water a lot of those celebrated their 3rd birthday hunting in Ireland yet the majority went on for many years never sick or sorry
		
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Hmmph. Wouldn't ever buy Irish again, after having my lovely Irish bred maxicob pts age 8 riddled with arthritis. Started too early.


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## Cortez (8 January 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Hmmph. Wouldn't ever buy Irish again, after having my lovely Irish bred maxicob pts age 8 riddled with arthritis. Started too early.
		
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Sorry to hear about your horse; the only horse I've ever had to PTS with arthritis was an unridden broodmare...


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## Rosiejazzandpia (8 January 2017)

As others have said, not too much of a fuss if only ridden lightly. 
On another note, I saw an american girl on instagram riding and training hard for barrel racing on a young looking horse. Somebody in the comments had asked how old he was and her answer was "2 next month".


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## ester (8 January 2017)

It seems to be very much because of the grading system (oldenberg in his case, performance test in April as he hits 3). I did read Lynne's list of facts several of which were not facts at all, and would be very much up for debate in scientific circles at least, and I have to say it didn't make it sit any more comfortable for me. 

I actually found the timeline she gave a bit confusing as to what had happened when with regards to backing, I'd be interested if someone read it better than me/is licensing under saddle? 
'Secondly, they were licensed in September and started preparation in June. Conditioning is hand walking, loose schooling and then lunging. Our Oldenburg licensing was the beginning of November and after that these youngsters are fit through gradual conditioning. From backing they are ridden three or four times a week for 20 minutes. '

I find it really difficult to call horses 3 just because we have hit January because I don't think their bodies know ooh we have hit january so I'm 3 now, when actually they are only say 2 2/3 (he was an april foal iirc) So when people say the horse is 3 not 2 just because he is closer to 3 I don't really get it myself, maybe we should stick to 32 months?! I am therefore curious whether all these other horses we say were broken at 3, were they, or was it 2.5. Because if they were broken at 3 and have been fine that to me is different and not necessarily supportive of the argument to break them at 2.5. If when we say they were broken at 3, to mean 1st Jan then yes perhaps they can be used to support that argument but I think there is a big difference between those two ages. Rising 3 always seems a bit of a get out clause to avoid saying 2. 

And whatever lynn says I am a reasons not emotion sort of gal , I also don't always dig the 'this person is experienced enough to know' they shouldn't be challenged argument but again that comes from the science side.


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## Cortez (8 January 2017)

ester said:



			I also don't always dig the 'this person is experienced enough to know' they shouldn't be challenged argument but again that comes from the science side.
		
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Well, since you're of a scientific bent, you will appreciate that "experience" means "has done it a lot" and presumably has noted the results, whereas I rather think a lot of the people who are squawking about the dire consequences of riding horses before they are 4/5/6 or whatever may not have done it at all...Challenging something is fine, but having a solid reason based on facts would be more useful than just going on emotion.


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## JJS (8 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			They are not two, they are probably 3 months shy of being three year olds.
		
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I'm sorry, but a horse three months shy of being three is two: saying they're not two is plainly incorrect. They haven't been alive for three years, so whether January the first has passed or not they do not have the physicality of a three year old. 

As to the original post, we're outraged about overworked youngsters in the racing and travelling communities (rightly so in my opinion), so why not now? Because it's done under the veneer of a more respectable pursuit, perhaps?


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## Cortez (8 January 2017)

JJS said:



			I'm sorry, but a horse three months shy of being three is two: saying they're not two is plainly incorrect. They haven't been alive for three years, so whether January the first has passed or not they do not have the physicality of a three year old. 

As to the original post, we're outraged about overworked youngsters in the racing and travelling communities (rightly so in my opinion), so why not now? Because it's done under the veneer of a more respectable pursuit, perhaps?
		
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What makes you think the horses shown are overworked? They look babyish and unbalanced, being tactfully ridden and helped by their riders but certainly not under any form of strain. Physically you could not say they are anything but very well grown and that is all that matters, not the calendar. Some rising three year olds are not ready to start work; these obviously are.


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## ester (8 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Well, since you're of a scientific bent, you will appreciate that "experience" means "has done it a lot" and presumably has noted the results, whereas I rather think a lot of the people who are squawking about the dire consequences of riding horses before they are 4/5/6 or whatever may not have done it at all...Challenging something is fine, but having a solid reason based on facts would be more useful than just going on emotion.
		
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Yes of course experience means done a lot, it doesn't always mean that results have been noted, or if they have been noted they have been noted in any sort of meaningful way IMO. Plenty of people with lots of experience who just keep doing the same thing regardless of the results they produce.

I do think some of the squawking is unhelpful, people declaring their 6yo is still in the field is certainly somewhat the other extreme. I also particularly liked the person asking why people weren't ranting about FGM and war .

The trouble also comes when people choose the facts/science to suit them, when usually especially with something as complicated as a whole horse you can easily find science to support both arguments usually and it can be shown to be good for some bits of the horse and bad for others. It isn't a perfect science and there isn't a perfect answer but I do struggle to see that as a whole it is beneficial that they start before their actual 3rd birthday other than beneficial for grading.


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## JJS (8 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			What makes you think the horses shown are overworked? They look babyish and unbalanced, being tactfully ridden and helped by their riders but certainly not under any form of strain.
		
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I'll be honest: in my opinion, any horse being ridden at two is being overworked. The weight of a rider and tack on such immature skeletons does not sit well with me. And no, I'm not a believer of the 'all horses should sit in a field until they're six' mentality, but the line has to be drawn somewhere; to me, two is not nor should be that point. The fact that Europeans do it differently and are more successful as producers does not mean that they're right and the British way is wrong - it could as easily indicate different priorities and principles as anything else.


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## sport horse (8 January 2017)

So hopefully all you people who want to wait till 6 or 7 to even back a horse are prepared to pay the breeder for the all extra years keeping it until that age?  ie £2000 will not cover breeding, keeping for 7 years and then backing and producing to be safe on its own/in company, over jumps etc etc.


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## Spottyappy (8 January 2017)

sport horse said:



			So hopefully all you people who want to wait till 6 or 7 to even back a horse are prepared to pay the breeder for the all extra years keeping it until that age?  ie £2000 will not cover breeding, keeping for 7 years and then backing and producing to be safe on its own/in company, over jumps etc etc.
		
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Personally would not buy one of this type of horse regardless of it being backed at 2 or 4/5. And costing £200 or £20000! 
However, I do agree with your sentiment and that applies whatever the type of horse and  if buying direct from the breeder.


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## crabbymare (8 January 2017)

ester said:



			I actually found the timeline she gave a bit confusing as to what had happened when with regards to backing, I'd be interested if someone read it better than me/is licensing under saddle? 
'Secondly, they were licensed in September and started preparation in June. Conditioning is hand walking, loose schooling and then lunging. Our Oldenburg licensing was the beginning of November and after that these youngsters are fit through gradual conditioning. From backing they are ridden three or four times a week for 20 minutes. '
		
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at the licensing normally on the first day they are seen in hand on the hard surface for conformation and walk/trot. then are seen on the lunge in  the arena. second day is in the arena they are trotted round in hand turned loose and run round a figure 8 so that their paces balance and canter can be seen and jumpers will loose jump then they will come back at the end and will go round in the walk ring and be declared licensed (or not). normally there is an auction the day after the licensing and those that are for sale will be sold with a ceremony before the auction to award the premiums and the champion/reserve champions. not all are for sale and some will only be sold if theh have been licensed others only if they are not licenced. if you look on youtube there will be videos. this will give you an idea of the first day https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gztY_xbtAHw and this is the second day for the dressage horses https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29pT0P6bj_E
the reason they will start the walking out in june is because they are selected on various days and places around the country to go to the licensing and that is in  the summer. then  the ones who are selected will start to be prepared for the actual licensing. Its worth going for a few days and watching it and the auction afterwards


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## popsdosh (8 January 2017)

ester said:



			Yes of course experience means done a lot, it doesn't always mean that results have been noted, or if they have been noted they have been noted in any sort of meaningful way IMO. Plenty of people with lots of experience who just keep doing the same thing regardless of the results they produce.

I do think some of the squawking is unhelpful, people declaring their 6yo is still in the field is certainly somewhat the other extreme. I also particularly liked the person asking why people weren't ranting about FGM and war .

The trouble also comes when people choose the facts/science to suit them, when usually especially with something as complicated as a whole horse you can easily find science to support both arguments usually and it can be shown to be good for some bits of the horse and bad for others. It isn't a perfect science and there isn't a perfect answer but I do struggle to see that as a whole it is beneficial that they start before their actual 3rd birthday other than beneficial for grading.
		
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What makes 3yo an arbitrary date when its ok to back a horse as horses are individuals . The way the continental system has worked for all time is early maturing horses have always come to the top as the grading system promotes that because slower maturing horses cannot be graded. Its the same issue you get in schools that older children within a cohort will always have a developmental advantage. So the grading system will always benefit the more mature and forward within a cohort for future breeding. I have bred horses that have been backed and ridden from 2.5 to over 4 every one is individual . The other thing to put in the mix those going forward for grading are colts which always tend to be more forward and better developed.
I am surprised Lynn is getting such a hard time but then she doesnt always help herself as the dressage horses seem to have been singled out. There was at least one if not two SJ 3yos that were jumping which although they would need to be(for their grading) rather surprised me there.


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## Spiritedly (8 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			They are not two, they are probably 3 months shy of being three year olds.
		
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I think that by definition that means that they ARE two


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## Meowy Catkin (8 January 2017)

Fiona said:



			she's a TB bred to mature quickly...
		
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Just picking up on this point as it is untrue that TB's have been bred to mature faster. Their skeleton matures at the same rate as other breeds.


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## meleeka (8 January 2017)

Why are they "obviously" ready to start work? We can't tell  from this video what the horse has been doing before or how long that process has taken, or would it mean that a 9 month old must be ready for work as they are being driven without any fuss.


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## elliefiz (9 January 2017)

Licensing is not done under saddle for 2 year olds. It usually happens late in the 2 year old year and it qualifies a stallion to go forward to performance testing. As already explained, they lunge and free school over 2 days in front of the licensing judges. The new performance testing system in Germany means a 3 year old does a 14 day test under saddle and then will do a further longer test in the future. There are quite strict rules to ensure horse is over 3 when doing the performance tests under saddle, so doesn't just assume all are 3 at 1st of January. The old system required horses to do a 100 day performance test which many felt was very hard on the young horses hence new system is improvement. 

The reason some British studs will produce stallions in a similar fashion to the Europeans is so their stallions can go to Europe and be evaluated alongside the selected European stallions. Isn't that how British breeding moves forward? By producing top horses that can compete alongside their European counterparts and perform equally as well if not better? Then being made available to British breeders from their British base instead of the complicated and frustrating process of getting semen from top stallions abroad? (Who also will have been through the same system of ridden at young age for Stallion testing) Woodlander had great success in 2016 with a number of stallion performing very highly in the performance tests in Germany, something few other British breeders have ever achieved. The young stallions at Bury farm are being produced to also performance test in Europe having been licenced by the relevant German studbooks and thus need to be under saddle and prepared before they ship out to Germany. 

For anyone interested there is informative reading about the stallion performance testing to be found here. https://www.hengstleistungspruefung...60/HLP-Rules_ab_2016_(Beschluss_Mai_2015).pdf


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## rascal (9 January 2017)

TheMule said:



			I think there's a huge difference between backing a horse in the summer as a 3yr old and backing it in the winter as a 2 year old.
There was uproar about it last year as well but the stud chose to do it again. They have their hardcore supporters but I think they are narrow-minded to publicly state that they know best and anyone expressing a different point of view is wrong. I don't really understand what they stand to gain?
		
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I agree with you. Sorry, but no one will ever convince me that it is acceptable to ride a horse as a rising 3 year old.  All i see is an immature baby. 
If i had backed Nico in the December before he was 3, he would have been 2 yrs and 7 months, how can that be right? 
These people are meant to be experts, so why do they not know that horses mature at 7 or 8 years? I backed my first pony when he was 3, but he was almost 4 I would never ride a 2 year old, and do not agree with other people doing it. I have seen so many horses with problems in later life because they did too much too young. Look at all the soundness problems my horsey hero Red Rum had. 
A local riding school was using 3 yr old for lessons, these horses were pts in their early teens because of the health problems it caused.


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## KittenInTheTree (9 January 2017)

sport horse said:



			So hopefully all you people who want to wait till 6 or 7 to even back a horse are prepared to pay the breeder for the all extra years keeping it until that age?  ie £2000 will not cover breeding, keeping for 7 years and then backing and producing to be safe on its own/in company, over jumps etc etc.
		
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Actually I much prefer to buy mine as yearlings and run them on at my own expense until they are ready to start. Far easier than inheriting someone else's mistakes.


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## popsdosh (9 January 2017)

KittenInTheTree said:



			Actually I much prefer to buy mine as yearlings and run them on at my own expense until they are ready to start. Far easier than inheriting someone else's mistakes.
		
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Sadly many dont ! At least you are well aware of the cost involved in getting them to that stage many think they live on fresh air and never need a vet and on fly grazing.


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## windand rain (9 January 2017)

There is obviously something wrong with the system when so many warmbloods are dumped on unsuspecting owners that havent the experience and who break very quickly due to inherent defects and too much too soon. How many times do we read on here about lame at 6 or PTS by 8 and this is a very small sample. Regardless of how it is done there is a percentage that is too high and probably compares to the racing industry


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## Goldenstar (9 January 2017)

Willow1306 said:



			I think it's really arrogant to produce such immature horses and claim it's fine. It's not. There is a huge amount of evidence to show that it's not and a huge amount of prematurely unsound (mentally & physically) horses to back this up. 

I also think it's ignorant to assume its fine because of who the owners & producers are; that similar approaches are employed on the continent is also a flawed argument.

I find it really sad that people truly believe that this is ok, either because a) professionals do it or b) they've got anecdotal evidence from their own experience that a horse they produced from a young age was, in their opinion,  fine and appeared to stay what they consider 'sound' to a good age. 

Lovely horses - would have been perfectly adequate to see them shown in hand or on the lunge.
		
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Well unless you have several years experiance of producing youngsters to a high level I think your views expressed here are arrogant and ignorant .
I also think that a lot of people have no idea how little (but regular work )a really good rider who specialises in starting these young but together youngstock will be doing .
These horses will probably be being ridden for twenty minutes a day even less .
Personally I always started my youngsters at three that's choice and again I really think we are better examining what we do and trying to do it better rather than getting in a lather about others .
Personally I never get how people expect seven year olds who can't canter a circle because they are 'young ' to develop their full athletic potential .


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## popsdosh (9 January 2017)

windand rain said:



			There is obviously something wrong with the system when so many warmbloods are dumped on unsuspecting owners that havent the experience and who break very quickly due to inherent defects and too much too soon. How many times do we read on here about lame at 6 or PTS by 8 and this is a very small sample. Regardless of how it is done there is a percentage that is too high and probably compares to the racing industry
		
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If thats the case how come we seem to have bigger issues with broken horses in the UK than the continent? If its such a bad system how come we lag so far behind europe as far as breeding goes? Part of the answer is not palatable to riders over here and part lies in the fact we still buy those horses even though to some degree GB has become a dumping ground for their rubbish. Its not their fault for selling them its ours for buying them in the first place.


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## Goldenstar (9 January 2017)

windand rain said:



			There is obviously something wrong with the system when so many warmbloods are dumped on unsuspecting owners that havent the experience and who break very quickly due to inherent defects and too much too soon. How many times do we read on here about lame at 6 or PTS by 8 and this is a very small sample. Regardless of how it is done there is a percentage that is too high and probably compares to the racing industry
		
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TBH while I see your point it's all down to the skill of the people to develop the horses .
But in my view to many horses are being breed from who are not carrying genes for long term soundness .
We have mares and I suspect stallions being used who have things like bone chips removed from joints when young going on to breed and it's a big mistake .
I would rather have a youngster bred out of a hunter that succumbed to a tendon injury at sixteen than a warmblood who had a bone chip removed at six.
And it's also about developing horses we have a bit of a knowledge gap and a lot of people who are producing these very able warmbloods without the best help .
It's actually easy to overwork a well but together warmblood when it's young because their balance is often so good .
I started my working life on a breaking yard and we were always told it should take you longer to tack the horse up than to work it which we did twice a day .
Of course that's little bit of an exaggeration but it's was to make a point the best way is training little and often .


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## Cortez (9 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			If thats the case how come we seem to have bigger issues with broken horses in the UK than the continent? If its such a bad system how come we lag so far behind europe as far as breeding goes? Part of the answer is not palatable to riders over here and part lies in the fact we still buy those horses even though to some degree GB has become a dumping ground for their rubbish. Its not their fault for selling them its ours for buying them in the first place.
		
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Very good questions, and you are right not to go into the answers ;-) Horses last, or not, for three reasons: firstly, and most importantly, because of the way they are trained/ridden/managed; secondly because of the way they are built; and thirdly because of luck.


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## stormox (9 January 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Hmmph. Wouldn't ever buy Irish again, after having my lovely Irish bred maxicob pts age 8 riddled with arthritis. Started too early.
		
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No proof at all that it got arthritis due to being broken too early!!! I had a horse put down age 7 from coffin joint arthritis and he wasnt broken untill he was past his 5th birthday. 
Just bad luck!


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## hollyandivy123 (9 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Very good questions, and you are right not to go into the answers ;-) Horses last, or not, for three reasons: firstly, and most importantly, because of the way they are trained/ridden/managed; secondly because of the way they are built; and thirdly because of luck.
		
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i think some of problem is s people forget warmbloods mature late. 

the change in working practice i think also has the potential for problems, not so much straight line work, too much on a bend and on a surface. Also with the rise in horse walkers we are seeing an increase in effectively repetitive strain injury with OCD joints etc, this is only my opinion but i have never felt comfortable with young horse being put on a small circle and too fast.


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## Casey76 (9 January 2017)

I do love the hypocrisy of HHO.

Just because this is a professional producer it is OK for them to ride a 2yo old colt, but if a member here even thinks about sitting on their 2yo they get trounced.

The colt in the video had been under saddle for 5 weeks, and yet he is already been ridden in a fairly advanced frame.  Yes he was a wibbly-wobbly youngster, but why put that amount of pressure on his young brain?

As for conditioning... how much long reining and/or lunging has he done on those immature joints to have the muscle tone in order to correctly support a rider?

BTW - those German WBs which are started in much the same way - are considered "spent" at 8 years old.


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## Goldenstar (9 January 2017)

I agree about walkers .
And I also think they tend to be used to replace walking hacking which is time consuming and more difficult than it used to be in many places .
I think that walking hacking was very good conditioning for youngsters .


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## stormox (9 January 2017)

In the USA the reining horses are doing skidding halts and spins at 2 years.  This cant be good for them either!!

But I do think there has to be a compromise, we wouldnt leave educating our children in sport, or learning, until they were 15!!!

Similarly leaving a horse til 5 or 6 to break might mean it was physically mature, but mentally already too set in its ways.


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## Tiddlypom (9 January 2017)

stormox said:



			No proof at all that it got arthritis due to being broken too early!!! I had a horse put down age 7 from coffin joint arthritis and he wasnt broken untill he was past his 5th birthday. 
Just bad luck!
		
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No direct proof of cause and effect in his case, no. Alas, I do know of several folk though who have had similar experiences to mine with Irish bred types, who had been hunted through their 3yo season over there. They simply didn't make old bones.

Nearly gave up horses altogether after him, I was heartbroken, but have now got an English bred IDx with impeccable upbringing and known history from birth .

I like to back 31/2 yos in the summer after a good period of long lining, ride away in straight lines for 20 mins or so a day then turn away over the winter, bring back into work at 4.


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## Meowy Catkin (9 January 2017)

hollyandivy123 said:



			i think some of problem is s people forget warmbloods mature late.
		
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No they don't. Late maturing breeds and early maturing breeds are a myth.

Dr Bennett's 'Ranger' article on equine maturing rates is very clear on this point.


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## Goldenstar (9 January 2017)

Three yo's hunting is a disaster for the horse .


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## Cortez (9 January 2017)

Casey76 said:



			BTW - those German WBs which are started in much the same way - are considered "spent" at 8 years old.
		
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By whom? Most competition horses are only getting going by 8, ALL dressage GP horses are older than that.........where are you getting your information from? And if you think the horses being shown are in an "advanced" frame your eye needs educating, anything built correctly uphill will hold itself better than something with an incorrect neck, if properly ridden.


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## ycbm (9 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			By whom? Most competition horses are only getting going by 8, ALL dressage GP horses are older than that.........where are you getting your information from? And if you think the horses being shown are in an "advanced" frame your eye needs educating, anything built correctly uphill will hold itself better than something with an incorrect neck, if properly ridden.
		
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There was a long term study done of NZ and German dressage horses. Median length of career was five years from first competitive outing.

The study also found that the earlier the first competitive outing, and particularly the earlier they won, the longer the career. Though all that probably means is that the really good ones are the ones that are best suited to the job.


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## ycbm (9 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			If thats the case how come we seem to have bigger issues with broken horses in the UK than the continent?
		
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Do we? 

Anecdote time   I have owned three continental warm blood horses each by a GP sire and parentage on both sides of high class.  

One was put down at ten having become paralysed with wobblers that he was born with.

One had kissing spines operated on and a short time later started fitting and was put down at eight.

One was cold backed in winter and refused to jump at all. I sold him as a non jumper age five and he passed a five star vet. But in retrospect, I'd be very surprised if he did not also x ray with kissing spines.



I'd like to see some proof that continental horses are any sounder than British ones.


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## crabbymare (9 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			There was a long term study done of NZ and German dressage horses. Median length of career was five years from first competitive outing.

The study also found that the earlier the first competitive outing, and particularly the earlier they won, the longer the career. Though all that probably means is that the really good ones are the ones that are best suited to the job.
		
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thats very possibly true. but. did the study take into account the fact that many stallions will have a short competitive career to prove themselves and then only be used at stud having "retired" sound and also that mares are often thought of as professional broodmares and will do a couple of seasons out competing and then be used to breed from? I would be interested to know how many of the survey horses  that had short careers were retired unsound as opposed to taking up stud duties or being sold abroad and all records then lost due to other countries not updating the german fn and in nz its also possible that the horses were raced first and would possibly be hard to compare due to the very different way of keeping the horses


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## ycbm (9 January 2017)

It was a comprehensive study that took account of sex, and also directly compared Hannoverians competing in NZ and Germany over a very long time period. You can find a summary if you Google it, I can't get the full study without paying for it.


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## amandaco2 (9 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			They are not two, they are probably 3 months shy of being three year olds. ....
		
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sooo..... if they are a few months off being 3 years old, they are two then?


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## Cortez (9 January 2017)

amandaco2 said:



			sooo..... if they are a few months off being 3 years old, they are two then?
		
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There is a big physical difference between being, say, 2 years and 1 month (as in just 2), and being 2 years and 10 months, (i.e. rising 3). The calendar date is arbitrary; the physicality of the horse is what is to be evaluated. I have, once, broken a 2-off year old for a client, and would not do it again as the horse was much too babyish IMO. The local western trainers, as well as any TB trainers, would laugh as they routinely start horses before their 2nd birthdays. 

Look, no one is going to influence the dyed-in-the-wool "never break a horse until it is 4/5/6" advocate, any more than anyone is going to talk us people that have always broken 3 year olds with no ill effects out of doing so. What I would ask is that experience in these things should perhaps be allowed to have its say in amongst the theoretical concerns of people who are simply repeating a received wisdom without any actual practical engagement.


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## amandaco2 (9 January 2017)

I think looking at a horse, you cannot tell its 'ready' it may look muscled and nicely mature but underneath the growth plates will be at the same/similar stage to anything else at 2/3/4. its very interesting reading how long it takes for the skeleton to fully develop.
personally I think 4 is fine to start backing, I wouldn't want to do it earlier.
where is the evidence a horse is 'mentally set in its ways' if you leave it a year longer in the field??
I can see a benefit in doing inand showing and letting a youngster see the world, wearing its tack etc- but for the sake of 12months longer playing in the field, id sooner see them actually backed at 4 myself.


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## madlady (9 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Erm, they've produced some of the top GP horses in Europe? I think you can be assured that they do, actually, know what they are at....

I used to back all my young WB's at rising three, did it for 15+ years and never had problems. Out of a couple of hundred there were two that I left for another year as they just wern't mature enough, but everything else went along sweetly, and many made it into FEI levels. It is the culture in the UK to leave everything to "mature"; in other places they merrily break horses at 3. I have no problem with it, IF the people doing the training are experienced enough to use judgement in the amount of work that the youngsters are capable of doing.
		
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It's all well and good saying that horses have been produced this way for 'x' years and that they are perfectly capable of what they are being asked to do but just because they are capable of it doesn't make it right - given all the new evidence that we have nowadays on when joints and and growth plates are fused (etc etc) I would have hoped that, by now, the upper echelons would have backed off a little on the amount of work that is done with youngsters.  I suppose that is the difference though between individual owners and a massive commercial concern.

Would it really harm them that much financially if they just waited another 6 months?  It would benefit the horses.


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## hollyandivy123 (9 January 2017)

Faracat said:



			No they don't. Late maturing breeds and early maturing breeds are a myth.

Dr Bennett's 'Ranger' article on equine maturing rates is very clear on this point.
		
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Sorry for using slang, i meant most people think that most horses are fully developed at 4yr ish. 

This article states that horses are not mature until about 6yrs old give or take a bit. it was quite interesting to see there were sequential changes of over the leg and skeleton at which the growth plates convert to bone which takes from 9 months to 3.5 years depending how far up the leg you are. didn't realise this. 

there is an interesting article about feeding foals and OCD, where they found correlation with increased lesions when concentrates are fed, 

Impact of feeding and housing on the development of osteochondrosis in foals&#8212;A longitudinal study, the lead author is Luis Mendoza. to summaries 

&#8226; This study focused on the evolution of OC related to the environment during the period from 6 months (after weaning) till 18 months.
&#8226; Horses not presenting OCD during the first months of life and fed with concentrates had a trend to develop osteochondrosis lesions.
&#8226; Horses positive to OCD at the first examination (6 months) and fed without concentrates (paddock, or just hay or roughage) had higher probabilities of recovering than those fed with concentrates.
&#8226; Environment conditions may define the evolution of osteochondrosis.


maybe we need to reevaluate early feeding of young stock? but i think this disease is very complicated and not just due to one trigger, possible a genetic element as well.


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## nikkimariet (9 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Nothing bad to see here? Horse is ridden in a basic trot and a very open canter, and is plainly not struggling. Why is everyone getting in such a state?
		
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Yep. 

I'm not saying I think it's right, I'm not saying I think it's wrong, I refuse to get dragged into it.

But I was there and I did watch. Won't be the introduction to ridden life for my future youngsters but please don't cry horse abuse or neglect.


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## nikkimariet (9 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			There is a big physical difference between being, say, 2 years and 1 month (as in just 2), and being 2 years and 10 months, (i.e. rising 3). The calendar date is arbitrary; the physicality of the horse is what is to be evaluated. I have, once, broken a 2-off year old for a client, and would not do it again as the horse was much too babyish IMO. The local western trainers, as well as any TB trainers, would laugh as they routinely start horses before their 2nd birthdays. 

Look, no one is going to influence the dyed-in-the-wool "never break a horse until it is 4/5/6" advocate, any more than anyone is going to talk us people that have always broken 3 year olds with no ill effects out of doing so. What I would ask is that experience in these things should perhaps be allowed to have its say in amongst the theoretical concerns of people who are simply repeating a received wisdom without any actual practical engagement.
		
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Agree with you again Cortez.

I've seen more mature 2yo's than 5yo's recently. I know of one rising 3yo that looks like a 15hh horse rather than a baby. But the 4yo it's in a field with looks younger and much weaker!

Similarly, these rising 3yo's were in a better place for work than Fig was when he came to be having been let down off the track as a 7yo!


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## amandaco2 (9 January 2017)

nikkimariet said:



			Agree with you again Cortez.

I've seen more mature 2yo's than 5yo's recently. I know of one rising 3yo that looks like a 15hh horse rather than a baby. But the 4yo it's in a field with looks younger and much weaker!

Similarly, these rising 3yo's were in a better place for work than Fig was when he came to be having been let down off the track as a 7yo!
		
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The difficulty I have with this, is no one can tell how mature a horse is inside by looking at it. they can look a mature shape in term of muscle, but vital growth plates aren't fused and you cannot tell this simply by looking at a horse.
There are 3yr old who look more mature and ready Tha 7 yr olds but inside the 3yo is still only at a 3yo stage of development


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## ljohnsonsj (9 January 2017)

These people are professionals producing horses to the top level of the sport. The horse probably has only been backed and riding 4-5 weeks, but as very experianced riders and producers are producing very high quality horses who are turned out to a high standard it all looks much more 'together' than it is. 

The horse is in it's 3rd year, very much ready for work with a pro


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## Cortez (9 January 2017)

One of the very large establishments I worked at X-rayed forelimbs and hocks before starting work with their 3 year olds...and it is quite possible to see "open" knees quite plainly (from the outside) if you know what are looking at.

Fun fact: human skeletons are not fully mature until about 23!


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## Shadowdancing (9 January 2017)

I agree with the person who said we'd be jumping all over an amateur who posted on here that they were prepping their 2 yr old horse for a basic show under saddle, but seem to just accept a professional doing the same? Doesn't seem right? 

It's not acceptable to me but that's just based on what I've seen myself over the years. Among my friends and associates who have bought and owned continental bred warmbloods- it's not gone well. They've all had to be put down before age 15 due to unsoundness in varying forms. Only worse profile in my personal network is ex-racers. Owners of both have blamed 'too much too young' in conjunction with their vets.


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## ester (9 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			What makes 3yo an arbitrary date when its ok to back a horse as horses are individuals . The way the continental system has worked for all time is early maturing horses have always come to the top as the grading system promotes that because slower maturing horses cannot be graded. Its the same issue you get in schools that older children within a cohort will always have a developmental advantage. So the grading system will always benefit the more mature and forward within a cohort for future breeding. I have bred horses that have been backed and ridden from 2.5 to over 4 every one is individual . The other thing to put in the mix those going forward for grading are colts which always tend to be more forward and better developed.
I am surprised Lynn is getting such a hard time but then she doesnt always help herself as the dressage horses seem to have been singled out. There was at least one if not two SJ 3yos that were jumping which although they would need to be(for their grading) rather surprised me there.
		
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I only used 3 as the point to work the discussion about age around because that seems to be the trigger point that people aren't comfortable with along with those insisting that technically the horse is 3, when technically by any measure he is not yet.

Thanks crabby mare and others re the licensing specifics it seems a shame that in her list lynne didn't include and this horse was backed 4 weeks ago and has done 20mins every other day since. Because even in previous discussions it is clear that many think these horses have been under saddle for months when that doesn't seem to be the case


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## ester (9 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			There is a big physical difference between being, say, 2 years and 1 month (as in just 2), and being 2 years and 10 months, (i.e. rising 3). The calendar date is arbitrary; the physicality of the horse is what is to be evaluated. I have, once, broken a 2-off year old for a client, and would not do it again as the horse was much too babyish IMO. The local western trainers, as well as any TB trainers, would laugh as they routinely start horses before their 2nd birthdays.
		
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That's why I wondered if we should stick to months for ageing because yes there is a bit difference in a 24 month and 30 month animal that is not currently reflected in the way we talk about ages


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## popsdosh (9 January 2017)

hollyandivy123 said:



			Sorry for using slang, i meant most people think that most horses are fully developed at 4yr ish. 

This article states that horses are not mature until about 6yrs old give or take a bit. it was quite interesting to see there were sequential changes of over the leg and skeleton at which the growth plates convert to bone which takes from 9 months to 3.5 years depending how far up the leg you are. didn't realise this. 

there is an interesting article about feeding foals and OCD, where they found correlation with increased lesions when concentrates are fed, 

Impact of feeding and housing on the development of osteochondrosis in foals&#8212;A longitudinal study, the lead author is Luis Mendoza. to summaries 

&#8226; This study focused on the evolution of OC related to the environment during the period from 6 months (after weaning) till 18 months.
&#8226; Horses not presenting OCD during the first months of life and fed with concentrates had a trend to develop osteochondrosis lesions.
&#8226; Horses positive to OCD at the first examination (6 months) and fed without concentrates (paddock, or just hay or roughage) had higher probabilities of recovering than those fed with concentrates.
&#8226; Environment conditions may define the evolution of osteochondrosis.


maybe we need to reevaluate early feeding of young stock? but i think this disease is very complicated and not just due to one trigger, possible a genetic element as well.
		
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Its not a new thing ! pro breeders have been practicing it for years im afraid most overfed foals you will see are in amateur breeders hands.Some of us know the signs but others think we are horse abusers and only in it for the huge profits we make.


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## Lanky Loll (9 January 2017)

I have no issue with the age of backing - we prefer to sit on the bigger horses early (usually at 3 though) and then usually turn them away. BUT.... 
given that we're advised to not use sitting trot on young horses due to them not being ready for it strength wise I was surprised to see the rider sat, and also the size of the rider.  The 2yo TBs aren't usually sat on by anyone over 9.5stone... I'd say this jockey was rather larger than that.


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## Cortez (9 January 2017)

Lanky Loll said:



			I have no issue with the age of backing - we prefer to sit on the bigger horses early (usually at 3 though) and then usually turn them away. BUT.... 
given that we're advised to not use sitting trot on young horses due to them not being ready for it strength wise I was surprised to see the rider sat, and also the size of the rider.  The 2yo TBs aren't usually sat on by anyone over 9.5stone... I'd say this jockey was rather larger than that.
		
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Funnily enough the really big ones are the horses we usually leave a bit longer....not sure we are looking at the same horse as the lad on the chestnut Woodlander was rising throughout.

Popsdosh: "others think we are horse abusers and only in it for the huge profits we make"

Ha! Ha! good joke....


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## SaddleUpSin (9 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Funnily enough the really big ones are the horses we usually leave a bit longer....not sure we are looking at the same horse as the lad on the chestnut Woodlander was rising throughout.

Popsdosh: "others think we are horse abusers and only in it for the huge profits we make"

Ha! Ha! good joke....
		
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I think this thread refers to a v. dark bay/black colt rather than a chestnut?


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## Lanky Loll (9 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Funnily enough the really big ones are the horses we usually leave a bit longer....
		
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They usually get longer to get going but are at least saddle/bridle/sat on at three - then chucked out til 4 and produced slowly - wouldn't be bringing them in quickly, current big yob didn't see a ring until he was 5 but was backed at 3.


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## Cortez (9 January 2017)

SaddleUpSin said:



			I think this thread refers to a v. dark bay/black colt rather than a chestnut?
		
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Two chestnut Woodlander stallions, rising three year olds is what I'm looking at...one by Wawavoom?


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## ester (9 January 2017)

The horse/video that the video discussion on the hh page was about is double bubble, chestnut, sitting trot throughout
https://www.facebook.com/horseandhounddressage/videos/1812485879007504/


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## popsdosh (9 January 2017)

ester said:



			I only used 3 as the point to work the discussion about age around because that seems to be the trigger point that people aren't comfortable with along with those insisting that technically the horse is 3, when technically by any measure he is not yet.

Thanks crabby mare and others re the licensing specifics it seems a shame that in her list lynne didn't include and this horse was backed 4 weeks ago and has done 20mins every other day since. Because even in previous discussions it is clear that many think these horses have been under saddle for months when that doesn't seem to be the case
		
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They havent and thats where problems start because the crazy gang dont understand how it can be done ! plus to be frank will never believe it anyhow as they are so sure they are right! At least we give the horse the benefit of listening to what they are telling us if its not ready its not and nothing will change that. A lot of the work will be done in lines before anybody ever gets on their backs. You know the boring stuff a lot of lesser mortals are inclined to not bother with because they wouldnt know where to start. You have all the basics in there before you even put any weight on the horses back.


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## Lanky Loll (9 January 2017)

ester said:



			The horse/video that the video discussion on the hh page was about is double bubble, chestnut, sitting trot throughout
https://www.facebook.com/horseandhounddressage/videos/1812485879007504/

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that's the one


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## SaddleUpSin (9 January 2017)

Ahh there was another video I was thinking of!


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## Cortez (9 January 2017)

ester said:



			The horse/video that the video discussion on the hh page was about is double bubble, chestnut, sitting trot throughout
https://www.facebook.com/horseandhounddressage/videos/1812485879007504/

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Nope, rider alternates between rising and sitting as and when the horse needs it. I have no problem with starting to sit when the horse offers his back, as this one is doing for most of the time (when he stiffens, the rider goes rising - have another look). As in the dressage ring, this is for perhaps 2 minutes, with a very good back-moving young horse with plenty of strength in the loin for a little sitting trot!

Both the Woodlander chestnut stallions are very well ridden by pro riders.


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## ester (9 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			They havent and thats where problems start because the crazy gang dont understand how it can be done ! plus to be frank will never believe it anyhow as they are so sure they are right! At least we give the horse the benefit of listening to what they are telling us if its not ready its not and nothing will change that. A lot of the work will be done in lines before anybody ever gets on their backs. You know the boring stuff a lot of lesser mortals are inclined to not bother with because they wouldnt know where to start. You have all the basics in there before you even put any weight on the horses back.
		
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I know they haven't and do believe it  which is why I said it was a shame that it wasn't highlighted to those who don't know. but I still don't agree with it being done. So does that make me crazy gang or not or do you have to fulfill both parts.


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## ester (9 January 2017)

At work so can't watch again just trying to be helpful with the vid. I can't see why any sitting trot would be helpful at this stage back offered or not. Why not just so back offered and rising?


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## milliepops (9 January 2017)

I saw alternating rising and sitting. .. to me it appeared that the rider sat when the horse was freshest and then went rising when it was reliably travelling around the arena.  Therefore I guessed he might be sitting for security and to keep the horse between hand & leg ( relatively!  It's extremely green  )

I thought he had a good seat and  would not be detrimental to the horse

He also took very wide turns and made it as easy as possible for the horse.  Very sensitive approach.


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## Cortez (9 January 2017)

ester said:



			At work so can't watch again just trying to be helpful with the vid. I can't see why any sitting trot would be helpful at this stage back offered or not. Why not just so back offered and rising?
		
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You'll have to ask the rider; presumably he felt that the horse was secure enough to sit to when he did so, and needed some help when he started rising, which he did, both inside and outside the ring. There is nothing in the videos of either of these two lovely young stallions that would give me cause for concern, I'm amused at the general tutting going on


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## Char0901 (9 January 2017)

I've read most of the replies but may have missed someone already mentioning this... These horses would have been bred for this sort of thing in mind... Ie a lot of their birthdays will fall within the first few months of the year. So yes, they're very nearly three. I backed my homebred last autumn, he would have been 'technically' around 3 years 3 months. Producers don't want that. They want a horse born right at the beginning of the year. I do showjumping mainly and I know that for the age classes for example, they want a horse born in Jan/Feb so that by the time their 4th year comes round, they've already had 10 months (ish) under saddle, compared to something like mine only having 6 months experience. 
And having backed my lad last autumn I know that actually when you sit on something that is quite naturally talented, it doesn't take a lot to get them to go like this. After a couple of weeks I was playing around with mine, finding his buttons. Just because a horse goes like this at the age of 3 does not mean that it has been hammered.


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## ester (9 January 2017)

I'd agree he made it easy for the horse turns wise etc I just don't agree that the horse should be there like that? It seems to be is they can grade ridden at 3 because they can then do simpler movements than if grading at say 5. But it is hard not to wonder whether the keenness to grade at 3 is because you can charge more for the services of a graded stallion...


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## ycbm (9 January 2017)

ester said:



			The horse/video that the video discussion on the hh page was about is double bubble, chestnut, sitting trot throughout
https://www.facebook.com/horseandhounddressage/videos/1812485879007504/

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Can't take my eyes off that dreadful dish he has on corners, flinging his lower leg out really sharply. I would not be riding that horse at that age.


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## ester (9 January 2017)

Char we do know the horse in the main video was an April foal


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## Cortez (9 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Can't take my eyes off that dreadful dish he has on corners, flinging his lower leg out really sharply. I would not be riding that horse at that age.
		
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Trust me, you wouldn't be riding that horse at ANY age....


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## Cortez (9 January 2017)

ester said:



			I'd agree he made it easy for the horse turns wise etc I just don't agree that the horse should be there like that? It seems to be is they can grade ridden at 3 because they can then do simpler movements than if grading at say 5. But it is hard not to wonder whether the keenness to grade at 3 is because you can charge more for the services of a graded stallion...
		
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No, the reason they grade at three, and ride at three, is so they know as early as possible whether the horse is suitable temprement-wise/training-wise to produce ridden horses. The grading process starts at two and continues until the horse has, I think it is two foal crops on the ground. Stallions also have to undergo a ridden assesment (used to be a 100-day test, but I think that has changed now?). At least that was the way it was when I bred Trakhener horses several years ago.


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## ester (9 January 2017)

Yup ok but if it is in order to know whether it is worth using the horse as a covering stallion as quickly as possible is that not money orientated  so you can then get covering quicker? And not spend money keeping the horse entire for longer than necessary if it isn't suitable? I think it is 14 day not 100 now?!
 Or is there something about a horse at 3 that you can't see at 4?


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## stormox (9 January 2017)

The sooner you find out if the horse isnt going to pass (and there is a rideability part to the grading) , or be good for competing, the less time and money is wasted. Common sense!


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## eggs (9 January 2017)

Having lived abroad in two different countries I have certainly experienced that what we do in the UK is not necessarily the same as what is done in different countries - and I'm not even talking about horses.  Does it make the UK wrong and the other country right?  Does it make the other country wrong and the UK right?

To answer those people who seem to think that it is 'just' a money making exercise by the stud there is precious little - if any - profit to be made from breeding.  Those that do have foals to sell often bemoan that people don't want to pay reasonable money for them.  I have bred a number of warmblood foals from graded stallions at both continental based and UK based studs purely for myself with no intention to sell and reckon it has cost at least £2,500 to get a foal on the floor.  

Rightly or wrongly studs run as a business and their 'assets' do need to show some return so keeping a colt/stallion for an extra year does incur additional cost.

I personally am a little uneasy at backing them as a rising three year old but don't necessarily subscribe to the view that it is entirely wrong.  I actually have a bigger issue with the fillies being put in foal at 2.


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## crabbymare (9 January 2017)

ester said:



			I'd agree he made it easy for the horse turns wise etc I just don't agree that the horse should be there like that? It seems to be is they can grade ridden at 3 because they can then do simpler movements than if grading at say 5. But it is hard not to wonder whether the keenness to grade at 3 is because you can charge more for the services of a graded stallion...
		
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In german registries the stallion cannot have offspring registered in the "full" studbook before it has its performance test which means any offspring from insemination before it has passed will not be eligible for grading etc. its not possible to have them retrospectively entered so if they are to be used they do need to be performance tested. its not a case of being able to charge more its the registration that needs to be taken into consideration as well even  though the offspring will be dna tested and have full breeding known.


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## Micropony (9 January 2017)

Shadowdancing said:



			I agree with the person who said we'd be jumping all over an amateur who posted on here that they were prepping their 2 yr old horse for a basic show under saddle, but seem to just accept a professional doing the same? Doesn't seem right?.
		
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It's a fair point, but I do think there is a difference. The horse in the OP's video had, if I have got it right, been under saddle for 5 weeks before that show. It will probably have been ridden 3 or 4 times a week for 20 minutes each during that time. My riding certainly isn't good enough to get a horse from never sat on to being ready for a major show atmosphere in 5 or 6 hours' total saddle time, and I suspect I am probably not that unusual in that regard among my fellow amateurs. I would have to spend much much longer on the animal's back to get to that place. So the two situations aren't really the same.


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## tristar (9 January 2017)

you just have to laugh or cry at their ignorance.


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## nikkimariet (9 January 2017)

amandaco2 said:



			The difficulty I have with this, is no one can tell how mature a horse is inside by looking at it. they can look a mature shape in term of muscle, but vital growth plates aren't fused and you cannot tell this simply by looking at a horse.
There are 3yr old who look more mature and ready Tha 7 yr olds but inside the 3yo is still only at a 3yo stage of development
		
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Interestingly, I know far more dog or on/off lame horses used for leisure rather than those produced and ridden by professionals.

I think luck has a lot to do with it in all honesty. But they are prepared to an immaculate standard.

Is it what I would do with mine? No. But I have no desire to breed and no desire to sell. If we want horses to buy, they have to be bred in the first place. And the rideability is tested in the terms dictated.

For the record, Fig was raced on hard ground 2yo-8yo and never had a day lame (castrated as a 7yo when they realised he was pants). It was just as likely to go the other way.


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## amandaco2 (9 January 2017)

definitely luck or lack of is a major player....we just hope we have some good luck!
agree they are immaculately ridden for the most part....I suppose one would be less likely to see lame professional ridden horses because you would think the professional would be more aware/ more stringent vetting at events? if the horse was lame, it wouldn't be out being ridden. whereas the leisure horse would be perhaps overlooked for lameness issues by less experienced owners?
just interested in the way a horse develops inside can have little bearing on what its appearance is.
perhaps young horses classes and grading has a lot to answer for?



nikkimariet said:



			Interestingly, I know far more dog or on/off lame horses used for leisure rather than those produced and ridden by professionals.

I think luck has a lot to do with it in all honesty. But they are prepared to an immaculate standard.

Is it what I would do with mine? No. But I have no desire to breed and no desire to sell. If we want horses to buy, they have to be bred in the first place. And the rideability is tested in the terms dictated.

For the record, Fig was raced on hard ground 2yo-8yo and never had a day lame (castrated as a 7yo when they realised he was pants). It was just as likely to go the other way.
		
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## ycbm (9 January 2017)

nikkimariet said:



			Interestingly, I know far more dog or on/off lame horses used for leisure rather than those produced and ridden by professionals.
		
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Isn't that simply a matter of numbers. There are far more leisure horses than pro horses, so there will be more lame leisure horses than pro horses? Also a pro knows better than to bring obviously lame horses out into public view?


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## ycbm (9 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Trust me, you wouldn't be riding that horse at ANY age....

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Did you mean that to be quite as bitchy as it sounds?


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## rascal (10 January 2017)

meleeka said:



			They aren't physically ready for a rider at two, let alone mentally. Nobody doing this is thinking of the horses wellbeing.
		
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So because these and others who ride immature horses, are professionals, that makes them right, and everyone who has a different view wrong. I know an awful lot of professionals who would agree with my views entirely, including vets and welfare organisations.


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## northernnewfiediva (10 January 2017)

It might be worth remembering that many quarter horses (or similar stamp) in the US are broken at 2, ridden lightly at three ( but for a full summer) and in full work carrying a different sized western saddle and a fully grown adult at four, followed by years and years of carrying novices over sometimes incredibly tough terrain for months on end during the 'dude ranch' season. The place I went to had over 100 horses, 3/4 were over 15 years of age and have worked hard for their living. Mostly home bred and backed at 2! Sound, with incredibly clean legs and an incredibly positive attitude to work.
I fully understand it is different work, I fully understand individual concerns but I do not think it is possible or right to generalise about anything in the horse world.


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## Tiddlypom (10 January 2017)

northernnewfiediva said:



			The place I went to had over 100 horses, 3/4 were over 15 years of age and have worked hard for their living. Mostly home bred and backed at 2! Sound, with incredibly clean legs and an incredibly positive attitude to work.
		
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3 or 4 horses left working at 15yo + out of 100+ in total?


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## Goldenstar (10 January 2017)

PRofessional starters are skilled people breeding these types of horses are careful about who they use .
It's not the fact they are being paid it's the fact they are specialists and good at what they do .
The most unsound useless horse I bought was a very beautiful broken at five warm blood the toughest two whose history I know were broken at two go figure .
I had all points in between as well .
Other things I have discovered buying a fat young horse always goes wrong buying anything that has or might have hunting at three on its cv goes wrong ( for this reason I am very cautious about buying Irish hunters unless I can trace their history)
I think young horses who have had no or very little concerntrate and have grown up living in very big fields is the ideal .
Would I have my own youngbhorse out and about at the age that The horse OP describes no I would not but thats really not relevant .
We don't really know what drives that lameness issues in warmbloods is it barn living too little turnout or being fed to grow fast or is it work .
I know through that the worse thing that can ever happen to a youngster is for it to get fat that tops everything in the disaster stakes .


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## ljohnsonsj (10 January 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			3 or 4 horses left working at 15yo + out of 100+ in total?
		
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Think she means 3 quarters, 75% of them are totally fine


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## Casey76 (10 January 2017)

northernnewfiediva said:



			It might be worth remembering that many quarter horses (or similar stamp) in the US are broken at 2, ridden lightly at three ( but for a full summer) and in full work carrying a different sized western saddle and a fully grown adult at four, followed by years and years of carrying novices over sometimes incredibly tough terrain for months on end during the 'dude ranch' season. The place I went to had over 100 horses, 3/4 were over 15 years of age and have worked hard for their living. Mostly home bred and backed at 2! Sound, with incredibly clean legs and an incredibly positive attitude to work.
I fully understand it is different work, I fully understand individual concerns but I do not think it is possible or right to generalise about anything in the horse world.
		
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Dude ranch horses are rarely expected to work in collection in small circles.  They are allowed to work in a free frame and travel at easy paces.


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## northernnewfiediva (10 January 2017)

three quarters


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## popsdosh (10 January 2017)

Just to put this thought into peoples heads what is there to gain by these horses being pushed when they are not ready as from a grading point of view it would be suicide . To pass the grading they need to pass a 5 stage vetting with in excess of 20 x ray plates as well ,so please figure are the stallion owners really going to risk it as believe me the assessors at the gradings are looking for any excuse to fail a horse . Most of the haters on the H&H FB page to be honest just think its wrong because to them it is and no amount of common sense argument will change them. Each horse is an individual and needs treating as such but please have the grace to accept nobody is abusing their young stallion by riding them at that age as there is everything to lose and nothing to gain . They are professionals who know their job which includes when to back off with an individual if you dont like it change the system however thats not going to stop horses being backed as 2yos and a lot of them will be people who arent so caring maybe.


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## popsdosh (10 January 2017)

Casey76 said:



			Dude ranch horses are rarely expected to work in collection in small circles.  They are allowed to work in a free frame and travel at easy paces.
		
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Nothing on Saturday was working in small circles etc of the young stallions. I get the feeling some think this was a competition it wasnt


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## ycbm (10 January 2017)

Where's the research, that's what I want?

The only piece I know of is what I quoted above, but all it tracked was whether the horses were still competing affiliated, so what happened to those who weren't?   For all we know, they are doing fifty mile long distance rides every week. 

We need some studies on working life of horses backed at various ages, with big numbers to average out different riders/techniques. Until we get that, this discussion will run on and on.


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## tristar (10 January 2017)

as others have said, at that age riding is a no no, but the frame in which they are presented? at that stage they need to have their head lower and to stretch forwards and not be put into an artificially advanced carriage to impress  it appears the judges, it begs the question just how many horses the judges have broken and trained from scratch.

if i had to choose between some prof riders and a sensible everyday rider i would grab the everyday rider every time to work a young horse, too much,  too soon, too demanding.

did they lunge them in very tight sidereins??????? the one looked upside down to me. in its back and neck.

not very lovely to look at .


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## AdorableAlice (10 January 2017)

Having watched the video of Double Bubble - what a fabulous name ! I would not care how old he is, ridden or not and regardless of his breeding or value, he moves so appallingly I would not consider him as a top class horse in any sphere.  The creature would trip you up leading him to the school.


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## Goldenstar (10 January 2017)

tristar said:



			as others have said, at that age riding is a no no, but the frame in which they are presented? at that stage they need to have their head lower and to stretch forwards and not be put into an artificially advanced carriage to impress  it appears the judges, it begs the question just how many horses the judges have broken and trained from scratch.

if i had to choose between some prof riders and a sensible everyday rider i would grab the everyday rider every time to work a young horse, too much,  too soon, too demanding.

did they lunge them in very tight sidereins??????? the one looked upside down to me. in its back and neck.

not very lovely to look at .
		
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I have not watched the video so can't comment .
However I would not be expecting a built very up hill youngster to be going with a lowered head soon after backing .
It takes a long time  for very uphill horses to learn to stretch and it's damaging to push them to it so soon .


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## popsdosh (10 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Where's the research, that's what I want?

The only piece I know of is what I quoted above, but all it tracked was whether the horses were still competing affiliated, so what happened to those who weren't?   For all we know, they are doing fifty mile long distance rides every week. 

We need some studies on working life of horses backed at various ages, with big numbers to average out different riders/techniques. Until we get that, this discussion will run on and on.
		
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Who is going to do it and for what purpose and more importantly fund it ! It wont change anything!  Its a bit like the poster who mentioned the research that was on about feeding youngstock the studs and pro breeders were always way ahead of that one. Funnily enough we were proved right by that study . It doesnt all need the research to tell you what you know is right for you. Realistically you can only ever rely on horses in afiliated competition to follow their careers and as you rightly say you need to know why they are not still doing it!


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## popsdosh (10 January 2017)

tristar said:



			as others have said, at that age riding is a no no, but the frame in which they are presented? at that stage they need to have their head lower and to stretch forwards and not be put into an artificially advanced carriage to impress  it appears the judges, it begs the question just how many horses the judges have broken and trained from scratch.

if i had to choose between some prof riders and a sensible everyday rider i would grab the everyday rider every time to work a young horse, too much,  too soon, too demanding.

did they lunge them in very tight sidereins??????? the one looked upside down to me. in its back and neck.

not very lovely to look at .
		
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You too fallen into the trap it was not a competition ,no Judges!!


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## popsdosh (10 January 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			I have not watched the video so can't comment .
However I would not be expecting a built very up hill youngster to be going with a lowered head soon after backing .
It takes a long time  for very uphill horses to learn to stretch and it's damaging to push them to it so soon .
		
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Exactly these dressage youngsters are bred to be naturally uphill . lowering and stretching is the bit that would be damaging at that age.


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## ycbm (10 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Who is going to do it and for what purpose and more importantly fund it ! It wont change anything!  Its a bit like the poster who mentioned the research that was on about feeding youngstock the studs and pro breeders were always way ahead of that one. Funnily enough we were proved right by that study . It doesnt all need the research to tell you what you know is right for you. Realistically you can only ever rely on horses in afiliated competition to follow their careers and as you rightly say you need to know why they are not still doing it!
		
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It _does_ need research to tell me whether it is right or wrong to ride horses at that age. I wouldn't do it, but I don't know if that's right, it's just a gut feel.

We are turning out dozens of people a year doing theses in the last year of a degree. How about one of them, for a start?. Even a lightweight, questionnaire based study might reveal something.

Until we have research, there will be no end to this discussion. I don't understand why you think it wouldn't help.


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## ycbm (10 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Having watched the video of Double Bubble - what a fabulous name ! I would not care how old he is, ridden or not and regardless of his breeding or value, he moves so appallingly I would not consider him as a top class horse in any sphere.  The creature would trip you up leading him to the school.
		
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I was beginning to think I was going crazy AA. Thank goodness you can see it too!


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## AdorableAlice (10 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			I was beginning to think I was going crazy AA. Thank goodness you can see it too!
		
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He will strengthen of course, but will never move well.  Having said that Dolendo moved badly and dressage is about correct training not being perfectly conformed.

I am a perfectionist (if I am spending money) when it comes to correct conformation and movement.  Horses are such accident prone, awkward, breakable money pits that I think they need all the help they can get to stay sound from the moment they start life.  So limbs that are balanced and go in the correct direction seems a sensible place to start when viewing horses to buy.


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## popsdosh (10 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			It _does_ need research to tell me whether it is right or wrong to ride horses at that age. I wouldn't do it, but I don't know if that's right, it's just a gut feel.

We are turning out dozens of people a year doing theses in the last year of a degree. How about one of them, for a start?. Even a lightweight, questionnaire based study might reveal something.

Until we have research, there will be no end to this discussion. I don't understand why you think it wouldn't help.
		
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How do you suggest it can be done . How many people with a horse that was purchased will know the true!!( not what they think or been told) age it was backed and how many pros actually know or indeed care where or what the horses are doing. The issue would be finding a representative sample. Who would fund it? from experience most last year degree students carry out their research on here and dont think even you would feel that was representative a cross section. I never get involved in them as lifes to short when your busy.Lets face it a lot of them are skewed in their questions anyhow I would not trust the conclusions.
I think you will find there is research within the racing industry as its about the only place you can follow a horses career with any certainty.


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## tristar (10 January 2017)

i was talking about dressage judges in general.

and the stretching  forward or seeking the bit is what i meant, NOT working round or low, they should be ridden in a NATURAL outline at the newly backed and ridden away stage, but perhaps they are not newly backed, maybe they have been ridden for some time.

and for f sake what do people expect them to look like when ridden at that age? to critique the poor horses when they are in such a growing baby stage is unjust. 

they are not uphill at that stage, they are all over the place, that`s why they are dropping the back and lacking in balance, young horses should be ridden with their head in a place most comfortable to them to enable them to find their balance under the rider in with a   natural head carriage.


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## ester (10 January 2017)

eggs said:



			Having lived abroad in two different countries I have certainly experienced that what we do in the UK is not necessarily the same as what is done in different countries - and I'm not even talking about horses.  Does it make the UK wrong and the other country right?  Does it make the other country wrong and the UK right?

To answer those people who seem to think that it is 'just' a money making exercise by the stud there is precious little - if any - profit to be made from breeding.  Those that do have foals to sell often bemoan that people don't want to pay reasonable money for them.  I have bred a number of warmblood foals from graded stallions at both continental based and UK based studs purely for myself with no intention to sell and reckon it has cost at least £2,500 to get a foal on the floor.  

Rightly or wrongly studs run as a business and their 'assets' do need to show some return so keeping a colt/stallion for an extra year does incur additional cost.

I personally am a little uneasy at backing them as a rising three year old but don't necessarily subscribe to the view that it is entirely wrong.  I actually have a bigger issue with the fillies being put in foal at 2.
		
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We're not talking getting foals on the ground though, surely most of the money comes from stud fees to outside mares? This horse is currently £700 ungraded



crabbymare said:



			In german registries the stallion cannot have offspring registered in the "full" studbook before it has its performance test which means any offspring from insemination before it has passed will not be eligible for grading etc. its not possible to have them retrospectively entered so if they are to be used they do need to be performance tested. its not a case of being able to charge more its the registration that needs to be taken into consideration as well even  though the offspring will be dna tested and have full breeding known.
		
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Thanks CM appreciate you clarifying that makes more sense, as much as anything then your stallion will be more desirable if graded because of the possibility of registering offspring.


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## popsdosh (10 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			He will strengthen of course, but will never move well.  Having said that Dolendo moved badly and dressage is about correct training not being perfectly conformed.

I am a perfectionist (if I am spending money) when it comes to correct conformation and movement.  Horses are such accident prone, awkward, breakable money pits that I think they need all the help they can get to stay sound from the moment they start life.  So limbs that are balanced and go in the correct direction seems a sensible place to start when viewing horses to buy.
		
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I know but often the soundest horses are put together out of the odds and ends box.


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## AdorableAlice (10 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I know but often the soundest horses are put together out of the odds and ends box.
		
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The balance of probabilities I guess.

I met a horse yesterday that was the weediest poorly conformed creature imaginable.  It is now a much loved low level pleasure horse.  It was a flat horse and has won 150k.


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## Cortez (10 January 2017)

"Good" movement for dressage horses is not the same as movement for show horses. In the show ring it's all about how straight a horse moves, for dressage the main thing is the expression and flexion, and more about the hind end than the front.


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## AdorableAlice (10 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			"Good" movement for dressage horses is not the same as movement for show horses. In the show ring it's all about how straight a horse moves, for dressage the main thing is the expression and flexion, and more about the hind end than the front.
		
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I did cover that in my comment.


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## Goldenstar (10 January 2017)

When I spent my time with top class dressage horses I was amazed how relaxed they were about horses who swung their legs .
I came from a hunting background and there straightness equals long term soundness .


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## tristar (10 January 2017)

i have a horse whose piddly little movement was commented on by people at 4 years, he is now 16 and his movement is huge and stunning.

dressage horses do not move parts in isolation, they are a whole unit, until every part is in play the full potential of the horse can not be shown, someone, somewhere was saying that it takes 8 years to train a horse,  i agree there is a lot of truth in that.

the stallions i have liked the most, and watched perform, and would have bred from, have all been outstanding in some way, and very good confo, some were x rayed with excellent ratings, the performers i liked best were the best made horses.


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## Irish gal (10 January 2017)

There's tons of research on this - it's multi-generational and it's inside the heads of producers sending horses to the Olympics and producing tomorrow's world champions and stars of track. In other words the proof of the pudding is in the eating! 

They don't need long winded university studies to tell them what their fathers and grandfathers have already told them and what they know through experience. This is not something that can be compressed into some dry article in the Journal of Veterinary Medicine, to be then poured over, snapped up and applied by anyone.

Many stallions begin their training at two, the biggest reason for this is because of the horse's mental development. I wouldn't be qualified to work with a horse like that but here's how it was explained to me by a man who has sent horses to the jumping world championships.

He has a future top contender and is working so hard to give the horse every chance at success. This process is more psychological than anything else. The horse was broken at two, because his mind at that age was most malleable so he was most open to learning and especially learning his place in the world. Stallions have a mind of their own, as we know, so it's very important that they learn obedience and their place in the scheme of things. 

He's a big beautiful horse about 16.3hh and is ridden for very short times, maybe twice a week, by professional riders who are very light. He has been taken to a show, not to compete but just to walk around and get used to the experience. He's also left off for stretches.

According to his owner none of this is in the least stressful for the horse because it all comes so naturally to him. As a two year-old he was assessed loose jumping to see what his abilities were. The test is for the horse, with no encouragement from the owner, to loose jump a 1.30m spread. To be earmarked as a future top level horse he must do this of his own accord from a trot and display no difficulty of any type what so ever. If there is the least bit of stress for the horse in doing this he will be classed as a future amateur ride. The horses are then turned away until they're four - apart from stallions.

The key here is that all the work the youngster is asked to do is enjoyable for him and non stressful: according to the owner he just works with the horse's own innate abilities so the experience is never difficult but instead it's enjoyable. The tenet he works from is that as long as the work comes naturally and the horse enjoys it then he is not being stressed. That is the whole object of the training: the minute the horse shows any stress, training is not working and must cease for a rethink.

To give you an idea of the innate jumping ability of the horse he was recently turned out in the arena to stretch his legs. A while later one the riders passing nearby noticed that he was jumping a 1.30m fence that happened to be erected and he kept on doing it. As she said he "was schooling himself".

This is not about rushing horses it's about working with each individual. The same man has a very talented six year-old, she can jump the moon but tenses in her head and won't perform at shows. So the minute the mare shows discomfort she's left off for a break. He keeps working with her to see can he encourage her to relax but he admits she may never. He wouldn't dream of forcing her as he knows that would never work and it would be against all his beliefs to do it.

Interestingly this is the same training method used by the best and most progressive race horse trainers. Watch how Aidan O'Brien expounds on the exact same tenet of simply working with the horses innate abilities.  "Their minds are the most important thing, making sure they come out of races as if they hadn't had them". So in other words when the horse is doing what comes naturally to him - there is no stress because he's enjoying it.

Aidan O'Brien didn't just dream that up or read it from some research, it comes from the multi generational knowledge acquired by people working all their lives with horses. For instance his father-in-law has worked closely with him. Here's how he's been described: "He's a quiet, little man, a fountain of sense. He can make animals do anything. He had a dog that he would tell to bring in the two-year-olds and the dog would go off and separate them from the rest."

So just imagine the horse knowledge that the next generation of O'Briens have who are all working or planning to work in the industry...

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-leading-the-way-to-the-festival-1473380.html


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## hollyandivy123 (10 January 2017)

Irish gal said:



			There's tons of research on this - it's multi-generational and it's inside the heads of producers sending horses to the Olympics and producing tomorrow's world champions and stars of track. In other words the proof of the pudding is in the eating! 

They don't need long winded university studies to tell them what their fathers and grandfathers have already told them and what they know through experience. This is not something that can be compressed into some dry article in the Journal of Veterinary Medicine, to be then poured over, snapped up and applied by anyone.


*why are so against knowledge and looking at a problem or event from more than one perspective?*

Aidan O'Brien didn't just dream that up or read it from some research, it comes from the multi generational knowledge acquired by people working all their lives with horses. For instance his father-in-law has worked closely with him. Here's how he's been described: "He's a quiet, little man, a fountain of sense. He can make animals do anything. He had a dog that he would tell to bring in the two-year-olds and the dog would go off and separate them from the rest."


* so he learnt from people with previous knowledge and applied this information to the task.......horse in front of him, this is no different approach from what is applied in scientific research, we see a problem or an event and try and work out why this happens. we need to develop new approaches to antibiotic resistance, we will use the information that has been gathered from our scientific fore fathers/mothers and use this to improve the task in front of us.

Both approaches use the same approach in looking at the previous generation what they did and how that worked.  Why are you scared of this method you praise it when it is used in natural horseman perspective but condemn it if it scientifically assessed? 

Take cushings without looking into the biochemistry of the blood we would not have an idea of what the changes are, how they occur and how they could potentially be treated, should no dry research be used to treat this disease? looking at the horse/pony you could say in late stage that the equine has the disease, but we now recognise earlier signs for treatment due to understanding it better*

So just imagine the horse knowledge that the next generation of O'Briens have who are all working or planning to work in the industry...

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-leading-the-way-to-the-festival-1473380.html

Click to expand...


*I use to work in Newmarket so appreciate the backup of research in the progression of racing, this goes in hand with the knowledge of the horse by the trainer.*


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## ycbm (10 January 2017)

All the old horse men 'knew' that it causes colic to douse a hot horse all over in cold water. 

Until some proper research was done when the Olympics were going to run in hot temperatures. And from then on, the recommendation is that all the major muscle groups should be drowned in ICED water, not just cold.

If anything, the trend is to break horses later now than they did 'in the old days'. So the handed down knowledge appears to be being watered down somewhere.

I don't get the argument that experienced people with handed down knowledge don't need research.

.As H&I says, what's to be scared of?



P S I've done more of a search and I can find loads of information about exercise being beneficial to bone strength and cartilage thickness in horses from foal to older horses. But none on length of ridden career based on when the horse first carried a rider.


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## elliefiz (10 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Having watched the video of Double Bubble - what a fabulous name ! I would not care how old he is, ridden or not and regardless of his breeding or value, he moves so appallingly I would not consider him as a top class horse in any sphere.  The creature would trip you up leading him to the school.
		
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How interesting that you would say this yet Lynne Crowden thinks he is the most exciting horse she has ever bred..... I do wonder who will be left eating their words.


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## Goldenstar (10 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			All the old horse men 'knew' that it causes colic to douse a hot horse all over in cold water. 

Until some proper research was done when the Olympics were going to run in hot temperatures. And from then on, the recommendation is that all the major muscle groups should be drowned in ICED water, not just cold.

If anything, the trend is to break horses later now than they did 'in the old days'. So the handed down knowledge appears to be being watered down somewhere.

I don't get the argument that experienced people with handed down knowledge don't need research.

.As H&I says, what's to be scared of?



P S I've done more of a search and I can find loads of information about exercise being beneficial to bone strength and cartilage thickness in horses from foal to older horses. But none on length of ridden career based on when the horse first carried a rider.
		
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I think you will find there isn't any.
it would be so hard to do because of the difficulty of controlling all the variables .


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## milliepops (10 January 2017)

returning to the videos, not sure whether anyone has seen Lynne Crowden's longer response on the BD forum, was also on FB I think.
The rising 3yos were first sat on beginning of December and she gave a "generous" estimate of  max 10 hours under saddle to date, simply to learn to go forward and understand the rider's aids. 

It was a calm, balanced and IMO reasoned response and she also remarked that the majority of their horses are started when they are 3.

if you're a BD member it's here http://www.britishdressage.co.uk/forum/category/members_forum/860662?page=6


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## Irish gal (10 January 2017)

hollyandivy123 said:



*I use to work in Newmarket so appreciate the backup of research in the progression of racing, this goes in hand with the knowledge of the horse by the trainer.*

Click to expand...

A scientific paper has never won a race - and it never will

But the vocational experience of trainers is what wins races every day. The latest scientific research is great as an ancillary resource but it can never take the place of a trainers experience, on which his horsemanship and approach is based.

It's the trainer's knowledge, learned in a vocational manner, combined with his or her innate ability with horses that results in training success. This is not the same as academic knowledge and it simply cannot be learned in the same way. You could let somebody study racing for 100 years from studies and books and you'll find that they still can't win races.


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## Irish gal (10 January 2017)

Why so scared of knowledge - isn't that a real good question!?

I find it interesting that not one poster has commented on the substantive information in my post: the actual training methods used to educate a young stallion by a producer who has sent horses to the world championships.

I can only assume that posters here have horses that have gone on to compete at this level or higher, say the Olympics, making this information superfluous. Are we to assume so that you have international horses standing in your stables...


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## Beausmate (10 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			"Good" movement for dressage horses is not the same as movement for show horses. In the show ring it's all about how straight a horse moves, for dressage the main thing is the expression and flexion, and *more about the hind end than the front*.
		
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So what's going on with modern dressage judging?  There are so many horses that are all front end flash in the test with the hindlegs still in the warmup, gaining high marks.  And a lot of them couldn't show a correct piaffe if their lives depended on it.

Are modern dressage horses being bred to be too uphill?


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## Goldenstar (10 January 2017)

Beausmate said:



			So what's going on with modern dressage judging?  There are so many horses that are all front end flash in the test with the hindlegs still in the warmup, gaining high marks.  And a lot of them couldn't show a correct piaffe if their lives depended on it.

Are modern dressage horses being bred to be too uphill?
		
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I have to confess the first time I saw a field of super swanky dressage yearlings my gut thought was they looked deformed .
I was used to Irish bred part breeds and TBs youngsters  I really was not prepared by how up hill they were bred to be .


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## Cortez (10 January 2017)

Beausmate said:



			So what's going on with modern dressage judging?  There are so many horses that are all front end flash in the test with the hindlegs still in the warmup, gaining high marks.  And a lot of them couldn't show a correct piaffe if their lives depended on it.

Are modern dressage horses being bred to be too uphill?
		
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No, not too uphill, it's the training methods used I think, and the judges rewarding flashy movement over real collection. Horses bred 20 - 40 years ago were better trained, but couldn't compete with todays movers. Fault is in the judging, yes, but also with the modern desire for flash and the spectacular. If Totilas hadn't been around I think Fuego would have been/should be the superstar.

Modern dressage breeding has created a superb, but also freaky, purpose-built horse.


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## ycbm (10 January 2017)

Irish gal said:



			A scientific paper has never won a race - and it never will

But the vocational experience of trainers is what wins races every day. The latest scientific research is great as an ancillary resource but it can never take the place of a trainers experience, on which his horsemanship and approach is based.

It's the trainer's knowledge, learned in a vocational manner, combined with his or her innate ability with horses that results in training success. This is not the same as academic knowledge and it simply cannot be learned in the same way. You could let somebody study racing for 100 years from studies and books and you'll find that they still can't win races.
		
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Have you heard of a trainer called Martin Pipe, IG?   A number of years ago he threw away the book of received wisdom about racehorse training, went for the science of training, and won everything in sight.

The racing industry is the one which does have a TON of research on training.

If we had the same for the other disciplines and for career longevity,  it would be very interesting.


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## hollyandivy123 (10 January 2017)

Irish gal said:



			Why so scared of knowledge - isn't that a real good question!?

I find it interesting that not one poster has commented on the substantive information in my post: the actual training methods used to educate a young stallion by a producer who has sent horses to the world championships.

I can only assume that posters here have horses that have gone on to compete at this level or higher, say the Olympics, making this information superfluous. Are we to assume so that you have international horses standing in your stables...
		
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what i was trying to demonstrate that there are two ways of looking at an issue, that both require the access to a large amount of pre knowledge and to apply this to improve performance/research/disease etc. you seem to have trouble with the concept that there is "vocational and academic" experience in both the trainer and a scientist working in the research which enables the progression of things. A trainer can look at a horse with the knowledge they have gained from the past this is no different to research, just different ways of describing the same process, we utilise past knowledge from people. 

To slightly dispute your statement that know one can learn to win a race, then why have the form book? but to be fair we had better odds predicting the winner if we went with the groom my friend fancied walking the horses in the paddock rather than the book 

there really was no need to snipe at the posters on this thread, it is good to develop a conversation in a thread in which any one can participate, query, either agree or disagree are you saying that only Olympic riders may have a point of view?  you can only learn by seeing things from more than one perspective


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## tristar (10 January 2017)

i think fuego is and always will be the superstar! the point of reference of what dressage could be, of course he is a real dressage horse that`s why he is the best. 

on irish gal`s discription of the young stallion`s initiation, why is he jumping 1m 30 at 2 years old? and at a trot!, two things i would not do personally, what exactly does that prove?    apart from the fact he evidently did not break his neck.


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## AdorableAlice (10 January 2017)

elliefiz said:



			How interesting that you would say this yet Lynne Crowden thinks he is the most exciting horse she has ever bred..... I do wonder who will be left eating their words.
		
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I sincerely hope Double Bubble is a world beating dressage horse, and achieves a big profit for his British breeder Lynne Crowden, we need to support British Breeders. I hope he becomes a British rather than overseas's team horse.  It is not a case of eating ones words.  Successful or not the horse moves badly which is a pity.


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## Cortez (10 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			I sincerely hope Double Bubble is a world beating dressage horse, and achieves a big profit for his British breeder Lynne Crowden, we need to support British Breeders. I hope he becomes a British rather than overseas's team horse.  It is not a case of eating ones words.  Successful or not the horse moves badly which is a pity.
		
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Sorry, must dispute with you here: the horse does not move badly, he is a superb mover FOR DRESSAGE.


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## AdorableAlice (10 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Sorry, must dispute with you here: the horse does not move badly, he is a superb mover FOR DRESSAGE.
		
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We must agree to disagree then.  Any horse of any breed doing any job will be better able to perform its job if it is correctly conformed and able to move straight, which in turn allows the skeletal structure of the horse to work at maximum effort with minimum stress to joints.  Plus if you run on a shoe string like I do, a set of shoes wear out in a uniform way because the horse moves correctly - every little helps !!


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## Cortez (10 January 2017)

Moving straight is always desireable, essential if the horse has to perform at speed (i.e racehorses, hunters, eventers), but it is more important for the horse to move in the vertical plane for any activity that requires high collection, here flexion and engagement is paramount. If I wanted to hunt or race I would not buy this horse!!


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## Irish gal (10 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Have you heard of a trainer called Martin Pipe, IG?   A number of years ago he threw away the book of received wisdom about racehorse training, went for the science of training, and won everything in sight.

The racing industry is the one which does have a TON of research on training.

If we had the same for the other disciplines and for career longevity,  it would be very interesting.
		
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We've all well aware who he is and what he did Ycbm and what he did is what I have been talking about: he used scientific research as an ancillary, he combined it with his knowledge as a horseman and developed a winning formula.

There's isn't a snowballs chance in hell that he could have done the same thing, without his already incredible knowledge of horses gleaned over years. In much the same way that no matter how many hand outs are given to kids studying equine science, that alone will not result in them training a winner. Just like we can all read the Racing Post and every scientific study that comes out and still not be able to train one.

What sets Aidan O'Brien apart as a trainer? He's well versed in all the latest scientific knowledge but that's not what's giving him the advantage - as let's face it so is everybody else. It's his accepted ability to get inside a horse's head and bring out that horse's natural talent in the most stress free way possible. That's what put him out in front, and that has nothing to do with science - it's all psychology and if you were to analyse it, you would have to say it's a gift coupled with all he has learned from incredible horse men that he has worked with and continues to work with. Of course he studies the form and everything else - that goes without saying

That's why if you listen carefully to O'Brien you will see that what he speaks about is the horse's temperament. For instance he loves and has had great success with horses by Galileo. And what has he got to say about them: "Galilelo puts mental toughness into them - they want to win." So what he has identified as the stand out traits of Galileos are psychological traits. He then works with those traits and allows them to come out on the home straits of the world's premier tracks. That's pure horsemanship.


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## Goldenstar (10 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Moving straight is always desireable, essential if the horse has to perform at speed (i.e racehorses, hunters, eventers), but it is more important for the horse to move in the vertical plane for any activity that requires high collection, here flexion and engagement is paramount. If I wanted to hunt or race I would not buy this horse!!
		
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Exactly this , with the proviso I have not seen the horse in question .


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## MargotC (10 January 2017)

I can barely watch videos on Facebook for experiencing lag but the chestnut looked not quite right behind to me. Does this show when the video is viewed without lag?

From what I could see they are extremely green but sympathetically ridden at least. I expect the time under saddle estimate given by the breeder is accurate. That said, the ridden practice and race to grade does not sit right with me personally.


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## tristar (10 January 2017)

well i don`t know which one i looked at, it was rising three, it looked like a wobbly gelderlander or some driving horse i saw once.

i think we are allowed to say what we see, its legs went all over the shop, it looks very fragile to me, a fragile and vulnerable baby

i don`t think we need to sacrifice our integrity at the alter of the industrial production of `dressage horses`  this is not setting a good example and so what if it wins and wins, we will remember all the ones that are  destroyed by this system and what it costs to get there.


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## JJS (10 January 2017)

Irish gal said:



			I can only assume that posters here have horses that have gone on to compete at this level or higher, say the Olympics, making this information superfluous. Are we to assume so that you have international horses standing in your stables...
		
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Surely the more important question is whether they have sound horses standing in their stables. I'm not for one moment suggesting that the producer in question doesn't, only that this seems to be the truly divisive factor in the debate concerning whether it's fair to break horses at rising three: their long-term health and soundness. After all, success and compassion don't always go hand in hand, do they?


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## Irish gal (10 January 2017)

hollyandivy123 said:



			what i was trying to demonstrate that there are two ways of looking at an issue, that both require the access to a large amount of pre knowledge and to apply this to improve performance/research/disease etc. you seem to have trouble with the concept that there is "vocational and academic" experience in both the trainer and a scientist working in the research which enables the progression of things. A trainer can look at a horse with the knowledge they have gained from the past this is no different to research, just different ways of describing the same process, we utilise past knowledge from people. 

To slightly dispute your statement that know one can learn to win a race, then why have the form book? but to be fair we had better odds predicting the winner if we went with the groom my friend fancied walking the horses in the paddock rather than the book 

there really was no need to snipe at the posters on this thread, it is good to develop a conversation in a thread in which any one can participate, query, either agree or disagree are you saying that only Olympic riders may have a point of view?  you can only learn by seeing things from more than one perspective
		
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I have no trouble with the concept of vocational and academic training. I have an MA and understand very well what academic study entails. My point is that primacy in terms of winning races must be given to the trainer's vocational knowledge and that academic research is just an ancillary (I have already said this several times, so strange to be repeating it again).

The form book is all good and well and it will certainly help you to buy a horse that could be a winner but it won't help you train him. That's horsemanship pure and simple. As previously stated of course it's informed by findings from science but these are not the main element, merely a resource or tool to call upon. 

Let's take a look for a moment at one of the greatest racehorses the world has ever known - Seabiscuit. A complete waste of space as a competitor until he met a trainer who could get inside his head. The trainer drawing upon his knowledge as a horseman understood that Seabiscuit was temperamental and would need a very special jockey. He was willing to overlook the horse's poor form after seeing in his eye a look of supreme confidence, more than he had ever seen in any horse. His job was to unlock that, which he did. That can't be taught in university. He found an equally unsuccessful jockey but one that the horse liked and the rest is history.

Everyone has a point of view and we are all on a learning continuum but to bring up a point you raised about academic experience being essentially just like horsemen learning from one another. To use your example, would you in an academic sense give more weight to the opinion of an inexperienced person in a subject or to the one with a PHD in that topic?

That's how I look at horses. And yes Nick Skelton's opinion of a horse or a training method carries more weight than a leisure riders. That is no doubt why you would have people queuing out the door for a Nick Skelton clinic, whereas a leisure rider's just wouldn't have the same appeal. This is not just my opinion, but the general consensus.

So let's say we were for the craic awarding honorary PHDs tonight - would you say that Nick Skelton deserves one in horsemanship. I would and this is my point. The knowledge and ability he has just can't be taught willy nilly. That's why I'm all ears when he and others like him - proven horsemen and women - have training tips to impart.

One day no doubt the scientific literature will catch up with him but in the meantime I am more than happy to learn from him and people like him. It's not about sniping at people on here, it's about valuing the incredible knowledge these people have which the average leisure rider simply doesn't possess. That's not a value judgement on them, they simply, through no fault of their own, do not have the same level of expertise.


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## Irish gal (10 January 2017)

tristar said:



			i think fuego is and always will be the superstar! the point of reference of what dressage could be, of course he is a real dressage horse that`s why he is the best. 

on irish gal`s discription of the young stallion`s initiation, why is he jumping 1m 30 at 2 years old? and at a trot!, two things i would not do personally, what exactly does that prove?    apart from the fact he evidently did not break his neck.
		
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You have slightly missed the point tristar. This is all about the horse being given the opportunity in a zero stress environment to show what his own preferences and likes are.

To produce a 1.60m international horse the animal himself must enjoy it and want to do it - otherwise it won't happen. This is not about forcing it's all about ability.

To determine if that's the case he is put in arena with a 1.30m jump to see if he himself chooses to jump it from a trot. If he does it means he has the ability to go to to the top. Many other factors are involved like temperament etc but the main thing is that the horse himself wants to do it. I said previously that the horse I was referring to can be found in the arena - alone - jumping a big fence that happened to be up. Nobody asked him to do it - he simply loves jumping.

In the same way I have seen NH pinhookers bring youngsters into an arena with racing fences. They trot around and the ones who choose to jump are those that are singled out as future winners.

This is not about money, it's not about forcing anything, it's about finding out the horse's own talents. If he doesn't want to do it he'll never be worth more than the price of a nice amateur mount and that's okay, that's who he is. you can't make someone into something they are not.

I'm no expert on dressage but in the same way, as that seems to be your background, you might put a youngster in an arena and just watch how he moves. He's not going to need an audience or any incentive to see how he moves - he'll just do it and then you will know what you have on your hands. You will know the natural physical ability he has, obviously how trainable he is and wanting to learn will then be big factors along with that.


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## ester (10 January 2017)

The overall impression I get as a bendy person is of someone that is hypermobile who hasn't yet developed the muscle to hold any of that hypermobility together.


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## popsdosh (10 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Have you heard of a trainer called Martin Pipe, IG?   A number of years ago he threw away the book of received wisdom about racehorse training, went for the science of training, and won everything in sight.

The racing industry is the one which does have a TON of research on training.

If we had the same for the other disciplines and for career longevity,  it would be very interesting.
		
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OMG you are opening up a totally different can of worms there . Yes the science of numbers  do you actually know what science he went for at the time. As some of the facts would make this thread look very tame. I cant say more but please it was no holiday camp like Butlins just up the road from him. Yes he got results but at what cost.


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## Tiddlypom (10 January 2017)

Can a horse grow out of dishing as it strengthens? Double Bubble throws his legs out like a mad thing, it would be very distracting from the overall impression no matter how elevated and wonderful he may be in other respects.


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## HashRouge (10 January 2017)

Irish gal said:



			You have slightly missed the point tristar. This is all about the horse being given the opportunity in a zero stress environment to show what his own preferences and likes are.

To produce a 1.60m international horse the animal himself must enjoy it and want to do it - otherwise it won't happen. This is not about forcing it's all about ability.

To determine if that's the case he is put in arena with a 1.30m jump to see if he himself chooses to jump it from a trot. If he does it means he has the ability to go to to the top. Many other factors are involved like temperament etc but the main thing is that the horse himself wants to do it. I said previously that the horse I was referring to can be found in the arena - alone - jumping a big fence that happened to be up. Nobody asked him to do it - he simply loves jumping.

In the same way I have seen NH pinhookers bring youngsters into an arena with racing fences. They trot around and the ones who choose to jump are those that are singled out as future winners.

This is not about money, it's not about forcing anything, it's about finding out the horse's own talents. If he doesn't want to do it he'll never be worth more than the price of a nice amateur mount and that's okay, that's who he is. you can't make someone into something they are not.

I'm no expert on dressage but in the same way, as that seems to be your background, you might put a youngster in an arena and just watch how he moves. He's not going to need an audience or any incentive to see how he moves - he'll just do it and then you will know what you have on your hands. You will know the natural physical ability he has, obviously how trainable he is and wanting to learn will then be big factors along with that.
		
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I'm finding aspects of your argument somewhat bizarre. Firstly, I don't see that it has a huge amount to do with the overall thread, which is not about whether or not the experts know what they are doing in order to succeed (which you seem to be most concerned with), but whether they are doing what is best for the horse's welfare. I'm sure we can all agree, whichever side of the fence we sit on, that success and equine welfare do not always go hand in hand. Yes the dressage trainer in question may know far more than anyone on this thread in terms of how to breed and produce a successful dressage horse, but that doesn't mean that what she is doing is necessarily the best thing for the welfare of the horses she produces. That is surely the key point here. And I don't particularly want to get drawn into the argument, so I'm not going to say what I personally think on the matter.

Secondly, I feel you are focusing too much on loose jumping and what horses do when left to their own devices. A lot of horses that go on to become superb show jumpers do not produce the perfect loose jump the first time they do it, nor do they jump fences for fun when loose in the paddock. They may not seem to like jumping or understand what it's all about. And I used to work with SJ horses, so I am speaking from experience. It is the training that is really important here, and the best trainers are the ones who can see past the messy first attempts at jumping to the talent underneath. Horses with the natural ability don't necessarily know how to use that ability without training, so there is no point reading too much into the loose jumping of an unbacked youngster unless it is truly shocking (though that is more to do with the natural ability not being there). 

The idea that a two year old can be dismissed as an amateur ride because it found jumping a 1.30m spread stressful or whatever it is you said your friend does, is utterly bizarre to me. Goodness knows, my former boss is currently riding a superb six year old that he bred himself and I can tell you now that his early attempts at loose jumping produced some unfortunate results! Yet this is a horse that, currently, looks like he will be jumping 1.60m in the future. I really do find the idea of judging a two year old on how it jumps a 1.30m spread really strange. Don't forget that at two a lot of horses are legs all over the shop, and jumping a 1.30m spread is far harder than a little trot round the arena. I'm not saying no two year old could do it, but I suspect a lot of very talented ones wouldn't make a great job of it.


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## milliepops (10 January 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Can a horse grow out of dishing as it strengthens? Double Bubble throws his legs out like a mad thing, it would be very distracting from the overall impression no matter how elevated and wonderful he may be in other respects.
		
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 With my case study of 1, yes.. my sec d was totally let down and very weak when  I got her. She moved in a fairly unattractive way. With work and strength she's improved dramatically. So assuming that the legs are basically put on to the body correctly, which I assume they are for him to be a stallion prospect, I'd imagine it will settle over time at least a bit


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## ycbm (10 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Yes he got results but at what cost.
		
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Isn't that the point?


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## ycbm (10 January 2017)

So what he has identified as the stand out traits of Galileos are psychological traits. He then works with those traits and allows them to come out on the home straits of the world's premier tracks. That's pure horsemanship.
		
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Hundreds of amateur, semi pro and lower than O'Brien pro trainers are doing exactly the same with the horses they own and train. Many on this forum. The difference is only that they are working with less physically talented horses. I reckon that it takes at least as much 'getting inside the horses head' to win at grass roots eventing on an ordinary riding horse as it does to get an elite bred horse to win a race.


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## AdorableAlice (10 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Hundreds of amateur, semi pro and lower than O'Brien pro trainers are doing exactly the same with the horses they own and train. Many on this forum. The difference is only that they are working with less physically talented horses. I reckon that it takes at least as much 'getting inside the horses head' to win at grass roots eventing on an ordinary riding horse as it does to get an elite bred horse to win a race.
		
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I like this, it sums up the 4 years of effort that has gone into a £200 special needs carthorse I have in my life.


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## Irish gal (10 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Hundreds of amateur, semi pro and lower than O'Brien pro trainers are doing exactly the same with the horses they own and train. Many on this forum. The difference is only that they are working with less physically talented horses. I reckon that it takes at least as much 'getting inside the horses head' to win at grass roots eventing on an ordinary riding horse as it does to get an elite bred horse to win a race.
		
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Are you really saying that in all seriousness Ybcm? You've got to be kidding me .  Someone training a grassroots eventer is as good as Aidan O'Brien!??

Next you'll be telling us that you are


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## Irish gal (10 January 2017)

HashRouge said:



			I'm finding aspects of your argument somewhat bizarre. Firstly, I don't see that it has a huge amount to do with the overall thread, which is not about whether or not the experts know what they are doing in order to succeed (which you seem to be most concerned with), but whether they are doing what is best for the horse's welfare. I'm sure we can all agree, whichever side of the fence we sit on, that success and equine welfare do not always go hand in hand. Yes the dressage trainer in question may know far more than anyone on this thread in terms of how to breed and produce a successful dressage horse, but that doesn't mean that what she is doing is necessarily the best thing for the welfare of the horses she produces. That is surely the key point here. And I don't particularly want to get drawn into the argument, so I'm not going to say what I personally think on the matter.

Secondly, I feel you are focusing too much on loose jumping and what horses do when left to their own devices. A lot of horses that go on to become superb show jumpers do not produce the perfect loose jump the first time they do it, nor do they jump fences for fun when loose in the paddock. They may not seem to like jumping or understand what it's all about. And I used to work with SJ horses, so I am speaking from experience. It is the training that is really important here, and the best trainers are the ones who can see past the messy first attempts at jumping to the talent underneath. Horses with the natural ability don't necessarily know how to use that ability without training, so there is no point reading too much into the loose jumping of an unbacked youngster unless it is truly shocking (though that is more to do with the natural ability not being there). 

The idea that a two year old can be dismissed as an amateur ride because it found jumping a 1.30m spread stressful or whatever it is you said your friend does, is utterly bizarre to me. Goodness knows, my former boss is currently riding a superb six year old that he bred himself and I can tell you now that his early attempts at loose jumping produced some unfortunate results! Yet this is a horse that, currently, looks like he will be jumping 1.60m in the future. I really do find the idea of judging a two year old on how it jumps a 1.30m spread really strange. Don't forget that at two a lot of horses are legs all over the shop, and jumping a 1.30m spread is far harder than a little trot round the arena. I'm not saying no two year old could do it, but I suspect a lot of very talented ones wouldn't make a great job of it.
		
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We've different points of view and that's grand. I'm only telling you the training methods of one of Ireland's top producers of sport horses. The reason he's so successful is because horse welfare is a top priority - horses as I'm tired of saying are never forced in any way. Because that's how you get the best out of a horse.

You may be happy to discount this mans record sending horses to the world championships but most horse people would not. 

The reason I brought up his methods is because this thread is about the wisdom or not of not of riding three yr-olds, he has a similar horse so it's entirely pertinent.

This is a person raised in a family of successful producers, that's where his knowledge comes from. As everyone knows you can't get the best out of a horse unless he is happy - kinda hard to square that with badly treated horses!

Not sure what your boss produces but unless they are intl 1.60m horses then we are probably comparing apples and oranges.


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## popsdosh (10 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Isn't that the point?
		
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So Science doesnt improve the horses lot then . You seem to be contradicting yourself. I can assure you whatever science that was used was to win races and not for the horses benefit. I thought you were trying to say that science would improve equine welfare . Either that or im not sure what work of fiction you have been reading.


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## ycbm (11 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			So Science doesnt improve the horses lot then . You seem to be contradicting yourself. I can assure you whatever science that was used was to win races and not for the horses benefit. I thought you were trying to say that science would improve equine welfare . Either that or im not sure what work of fiction you have been reading.
		
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I don't think I've contradicted myself at all. If you can tell me which bit of what I've written you are struggling to understand, I'll gladly explain it again for you.


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## Cortez (11 January 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Can a horse grow out of dishing as it strengthens? Double Bubble throws his legs out like a mad thing, it would be very distracting from the overall impression no matter how elevated and wonderful he may be in other respects.
		
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Yes, horses will strengthen up and by the time they are working at advanced movements their movement will often be substantially different. But what you are focusing on, the dishing, is actually not particularly relevant in dressage; many top horses do not move straight in the way that a show horse is required to. What is asked of dressage horses is that they flex their joints, all of them, and show elevation, suppleness and expression: both of the Woodlander horses do this, the second horse (Double Bubble) particularly so.


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## catkin (11 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Yes, horses will strengthen up and by the time they are working at advanced movements their movement will often be substantially different. But what you are focusing on, the dishing, is actually not particularly relevant in dressage; many top horses do not move straight in the way that a show horse is required to. What is asked of dressage horses is that they flex their joints, all of them, and show elevation, suppleness and expression: both of the Woodlander horses do this, the second horse (Double Bubble) particularly so.
		
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In my humble amateur opinion I would suggest that yes, a show horse must move straight, as that is the physical construction that is most likely to allow the horse to move efficiently and to keep the horse sound. Show classes are all about improving the breed/type at the end of the day. 
However, to be at the right end of the front row a show horse must show expression and personality and presence too. When you see the Welsh stallions at Royal Welsh for example they are really moving with phenomenal hock action.


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## tristar (11 January 2017)

my experience of loose jumping is that it not an predictor of future success, it shows a horse can get off the ground.

my stallion jumps obstacles of his own free will, i thought it amusing more than anything else.

i don`t feel i have missed any point, but was questioning the judgement of the trainer concerned, as showjumping is the ability to complete a set of obstacles with brings into play a range of qualities not evident when two years old.

i too am in awe of people who train horses without recourse to making profit from it, be it money or glory for themselves, there  are many people who have succeeded with horses and no financial backing, getting inside a horse`s head is not the exclusive province of aidan o`brien, that is one
 of the beauties of the horse world, the wonderful people you meet who truly love horses and probably know as much as any prof trainer.

`it is rare to see a rider who is passionate about the horse and his training.taking a profound interest in dressage with self-abnegation. and making this extra-ordinary subtle work one of the motivations of his life` 

written by nuno oliviera


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## ozpoz (11 January 2017)

I am amazed that poor movment/lack of straightness can be discounted in high value animals. Seriously? I can see the lovely looseness and suppleness but straightness contributes to long term soundness.


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## ester (11 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			So Science doesnt improve the horses lot then . You seem to be contradicting yourself. I can assure you whatever science that was used was to win races and not for the horses benefit. I thought you were trying to say that science would improve equine welfare . Either that or im not sure what work of fiction you have been reading.
		
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Of course it depends how the science is used and what it's intention was as to whether it improves things for the horse or as usual just generated more ££ for the people. That doesn't mean using science is inherently bad. 

I'm also not sure about the 'horses are never forced' argument as that presumes the horse knows somewhat more than it is likely too.


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## Cortez (11 January 2017)

ozpoz said:



			I am amazed that poor movment/lack of straightness can be discounted in high value animals. Seriously? I can see the lovely looseness and suppleness but straightness contributes to long term soundness.
		
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It is received wisdom in this part of the world that straightness is supposed to equal soundness, just as deviations are supposed to equal unsoundness, but in practise that ain't necessarily so. Just as perfect conformation doesn't always mean a problem-free horse, and many a successful racehorse/jumper/etc. has poor conformation. I would say that in faster sports where horses are likely to knock into themselves, such as racing, eventing and hunting, a straight, low action is more desireable. 

In other parts of the world it's a bit more "meh, not important", and having had Spanish horses for a long time, some with spectacular leg action, I've never had a problem traced to how they move.


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## ozpoz (11 January 2017)

There is always the exception that proves the rule. 

 I believe that dishing was bred into Andalusians, as it was seen as desirable.


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## ycbm (12 January 2017)

ozpoz said:



			There is always the exception that proves the rule. 

 I believe that dishing was bred into Andalusians, as it was seen as desirable.
		
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My understanding is that dishing is not considered a soundness issue as long as the foot hits the floor correctly.   I still wouldn't buy one, though, I don't like the look of it and I'm not sure I trust them soundness wise. Are there any three or for star eventers or older chasers that dish?  Anyone got a career hunter in its late teens that dishes? It would be interesting to know.


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## Goldenstar (12 January 2017)

One of the big issues with bad dishers doing fast work is that they bang themselves and damage tendons and ligaments it's not just about how they place their feet on the ground .
I bought H with a dish now he's strong and developed its almost disappeared you really would have to watch him to see .


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## Lanky Loll (12 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			My understanding is that dishing is not considered a soundness issue as long as the foot hits the floor correctly.   I still wouldn't buy one, though, I don't like the look of it and I'm not sure I trust them soundness wise. Are there any three or for star eventers or older chasers that dish?  Anyone got a career hunter in its late teens that dishes? It would be interesting to know.
		
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Yes there are a couple that when you watch them come down the centre line  at Badminton that could have swam over  I can't name names off the top of my head but remember commenting on it at the time.  But at the end of the day it's about their jump rather than their action.
I've had welshies / cob cross ponies that have gone and competed to a high level without it causing them a problem SJ but I find it hard to believe that it's a desirable trait in breeds where it's not bred in IYSWIM? I know in the PRE type breeds and to a degree in some of the more cob type breeds it's a breed type action but in the warmbloods which are descended from driving horses - where a high straight action was desirable I find it harder to accept.


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