# Does the TB Stallion sire have a future in the UK Sport Horse Breeding Industry



## Blacklist (17 June 2010)

May I ask the forum:

Does the TB Stallion sire have a future in the UK Sport Horse Breeding Industry and by that I don't mean the racing industry. 

With the 'Warmblood' being so popular for the breeding of 'Sport Horses' here in the UK is the TB stallion sire out of fashion in this sphere - hope not!


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## Touchwood (17 June 2010)

Definately has a future, but it really does depend on individuals - they must be worthy sires in their own right, and nowadays will need to prove themselves even more in sport/production of talented offspring to compete with the rest of the market.


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## cundlegreen (17 June 2010)

God, I hope so! I think people are interested in flashy movement rather than soundness and longevity. You don't hear of OCD in the Thoroughbred as far as I know.


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## S_N (17 June 2010)

cundlegreen said:



			You don't hear of OCD in the Thoroughbred as far as I know.
		
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Oh yes you do!!


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## millitiger (17 June 2010)

definitely, but as above it must be a great example (of which there are many around).

i am a huge fan of the tb and wouldn't buy anything now that wasn't at least 3/4 bred; and by that i mean 3 out of 4 grandparents are XX- NOT "its a holsteiner but technically its 3/4tb if you look back 8 generations in it's pedigree."


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## LadyRascasse (17 June 2010)

cundlegreen said:



			God, I hope so! I think people are interested in flashy movement rather than soundness and longevity.
		
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My TB mare is more than capable of "flashy movement" i think TB have a future in breeding sports horses particularly eventer types. 







i find thoroughbreds (particularly ones that have raced) harder to get the more "flashy work" out of but it is defiantly in there and they do produce lovely crosses. Infact i don't really know of a bad cross when it comes to TB they cross well with most breeds.


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## Alec Swan (17 June 2010)

In my humble view,  the TB,  as a sire,  is the base line where sport horse breeding starts,  regardless of the discipline,  and supported,  originally I would suggest,  by the native breeds,  the Connemara and the Irish Draught.

Today we probably need mares of Continental breeding,  and bare in mind that most of the successful horses,  from the Continent,  will have been heavily influenced by the TB.  In the 60s and 70s,  the correct and promising TB colts were being bought up on a near wholesale basis to improve "their" horses.  

So where are these modern TB Stallions?  The proven sires of the top class NH horses would be a start,  but at the current stud fees,  few could justify such expense.  Can you imagine how much the frozen semen from,  say Hand In Glove,  just as an example,  would now command?

This thread is rather encroaching on the grounds of the Happy Irish contingent,  and it may well be that Eothain has a view!!  I'd very much like to hear his thoughts.

Alec.


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## beth123 (17 June 2010)

i hope so!!!!


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## Forgetmenot (17 June 2010)

It depends on the TB line though, certain one have a high percentage of break downs on the course which IMO means they will in other disciplines, sadly people don't do the maths and think a high class name will be the right way to go. Thankfully in the TB world you can get the figures of foals to winners etc, its then when it gets scary.

Obviously the TB has is role to play in most breeds, provided its combined with the right nick, after all they are a man made breed. 

I have 2 stunning young TB colts right now to make Show hack/ Sports Pony Stallions for 2011 one by Groom Dancer the other by Reset.


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## Eothain (18 June 2010)

Thanks for that Alec. Now I feel all warm and fuzzy inside!

In my opinion, it's a pretty simple answer but I might as well bulk it up a bit!!!

When I breed to a thoroughbred stallion, I don't want a colt foal. I want a filly. There is no greater source of blood than the thoroughbred stallion once it's head is screwed on right. No thoroughbreds appear in the top 30 showjumping sire rankings yet if Weatherbys were a WBFSH affiliated studbook, the ISH would be #2 in the eventing rankings.

Badminton was won by a _______?
Kentucky was won by a _______?
The current European Champion is a _______?
The most medalled horse in the sport of eventing is a _______?
(Hint, every answer is the same)

So for breeding Eventers, the answer is a resounding yes. Simple as that. For breeding showjumpers how ever it's a little more complex!

When you look through the dam lines of some of the world's top ranked jumpers you'll see plenty of mention of the thoroughbred. Hell, even the dam lines on the sire side will present plenty of thoroughbred names.

What does that mean?

Well to me, it means the future of the thoroughbred in showjumping breeding is as a sire of mares. Where you may have a super talented jumping mare who lacks a little bit of quality and blood, well breed her to a thoroughbred and cross your fingers for a filly.

Now I know you should be glad of whatever you're given yadda yadda yadda but this is real life and one needs to breed towards an end goal. Filly foals by thoroughbreds are that end goal, at least, that is in my opinion.

Would anyone be surprised to learn that a horse whom is relatively unknown named Shutterfly is out of a mare by a thoroughbred!
The Holstein Verband have schemes in place to effectively compensate breeders who use a thoroughbred stallion and get a colt by buying the foal for a fixed price.
The Swedish mare Butterfly Flip is out of a thoroughbred.
The super little Cruising sired stallion Flexible is out of a thoroughbred mare.
Speaking of Cruising, it has to be pointed out that he whom is the best of all time is also out of a mare by a thoroughbred!!!

It looks like the blood must come from the Dam's side! Fascinating stuff.

So you've bred your mare to a thoroughbred, got a filly and find yourself asking "What next?". Well my advice would be to loose jump the filly at 3 and if she looks well and moves well and jummps well, don't waste her ovulations by doing something crazy like riding her!!! No, that'd be silly. Get that filly to stud. Get her to the best jumping stallion you can afford and cross your fingers! A future superstar might well be waiting to pop out and say hi!

As for Dressage breeding, well I know nothing about it other than Totilas = awesome so I'll leave that topic well enough alone

In short then, when thoroughbred stallions are used properly, they'll always always always be a staple tool of the Sport Horse industry. Warmbloods may bring jump, power, scope, carefulness but blood is that secret ingredient the thoroughbreds bring to the party.

To answer the question, "Does the TB stallion sire have a future in the UK Sport Horse Breeding Industry?" ... Yes


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## Jamana (18 June 2010)

I know almost nothing about Sports Horse breeding but it has always been my opinion that you cannot go far wrong if you base your breeding on TB mares. A decent TB mare can breed you almost any type of horse depending on the sire but will always add athleticism and quality.

Not as informed nor eloquent a post as Eothain's above, but maybe not too far from his point?


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## sywell (18 June 2010)

Long post must be Tom Reid. Dr Nissen Breeding Director of Holstein and Dr Jochen Wilkens the now retired Breeding Director of Hanover firmly believe in the need to see 10% of TB blood in their blood lines but the benifits show through in the second and third generations. Lauries Crusador XX who was a Hanoverin stallion of the year has proved this. The sucess of the warmbloods is their accurate databases that contain the information need to make correct assements of Estimated Breeding Values and the strict Vetting and xrays.
 Dr Nissen says that a marker of succes is to see 17 year old horses competing at Grand Prix(without drugs). Someone mentioned OCD in TBs I have seen figures of 20% but not in ones from New Zealand.
The problem is the artificial high price of TB coverings of the top stallions only good mare lines are affordable.


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## Eothain (18 June 2010)

Tom Reid? I'm not Tom Reid


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## GinnieRedwings (18 June 2010)

Eothain, can I please build a shrine to you & your (most of the time) absolutely spot on posts? 



Forgetmenot said:



			I have 2 stunning young TB colts right now to make Show hack/ Sports Pony Stallions for 2011 one by Groom Dancer the other by Reset.
		
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Forgetmenot, sorry, I don't know how to put this in a way that doesn't sound rude... but a show hack is not and never will be a sports horse in my eyes. 

By TB - as used in the breeding of sports horses, I am assuming we are talking about NH horses, not thoses weedy daisy cutting flat racers that the racing industry seem to be churning out at an alarming rate...

If so then, my answer to the OP question is... Yes - see Eothain's post for further detail


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## GinnieRedwings (18 June 2010)

cundlegreen said:



			You don't hear of OCD in the Thoroughbred as far as I know.
		
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V, actually I was reading about OCD recently and it appears that the breed with the biggest incidence of OCD in the world IS the TB - it might be because of the vast numbers of foals produced each year, but there is a suggestion that OCD is a genetic issue - and therefore inbreeding plays a big part.

So why don't you see it or hear about it so much (unless you work in a racing TB stud or do a little - but not much - digging)? My personal opinion is that:
1- In a lot of cases, OCD is a growth issue, which, with a bit of good farriery and competent management is all but invisible by the time a horse is 2 and ready to go into training.
2- The TB breeding industry accepts a certain amount of "wastage" and the ones that don't come right simply end up at the knackers yard.


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## TomReed (18 June 2010)

Sywell, I always post under my real name.

My views on the role of TBs in sport horse breeding can be found here, in an article published almost two years ago:

http://morningside-stud.com/gpage19.html

Tom Reed


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## TomReed (18 June 2010)

Eothain wrote:

"The super little Cruising sired stallion Flexible is out of a thoroughbred mare."

This is not accurate. Flexible is out of a mare sired by a TB, but that mare's damline is not recorded.


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## JANANI (18 June 2010)

Maybe not in showjumping and dressage. But certainly in Eventing you only need to look at results at 4* level as pointed out by Eothin already. We also haven't pointed out the ISHs which are tradtionally IDxTB. 

I own a little NH bred TB who was too small for racing. He moves well (terrific walk and canter as stated by my dressage trainer), jumps like a stag and has a great temperment. He would make a really good young rider horse if he didn't have a numpty like me on him! He is from a privately owned stallion who only covers the owners mares and sadly died this year. He also has plenty of bone and looks quite chunky in compared to other TBs. To me, he looks like a traditionally NH bred horse although a bit on the short side. I would loved to have seen the result of his sire (who he is the spit of) covering an non TB but now I will never know.

I feel, given the results of TBs at the higher level. They do have a place certainly when breeding for eventers. 

Remember there is a number of ISHs out there which are Full TB


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## Blacklist (18 June 2010)

Could the lack of top Showjumpers sired by TB stallions be because on the whole TB stallions have not been used much in this sphere for some time - whereas worldwide the Warmblood sire has - only a suggestion.


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## Jamana (18 June 2010)

GinnieRedwings said:



			By TB - as used in the breeding of sports horses, I am assuming we are talking about NH horses, not thoses weedy daisy cutting flat racers that the racing industry seem to be churning out at an alarming rate...
		
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Actually the vast majority of NH horse are Flat bred. IMO the perception of Flat racers being 'weedy' is a misapprehension, the aim of Flat breeders is to produce a strong and muscular athlete. Weedy would be what the NH types are, backward looking and need time would be the usual description of a typical NH store 2yo. Remember that the Flat horses you are most likely to see are not much older than 3 and very very fit. Comparing them to a NH horse who is prob 9-10yo and much more physically developed is not really a fair appraisal. Look at some Flat stallion confo pics and see how 'weedy' they look!



GinnieRedwings said:



			V, actually I was reading about OCD recently and it appears that the breed with the biggest incidence of OCD in the world IS the TB - it might be because of the vast numbers of foals produced each year, but there is a suggestion that OCD is a genetic issue - and therefore inbreeding plays a big part.

So why don't you see it or hear about it so much (unless you work in a racing TB stud or do a little - but not much - digging)? My personal opinion is that:
1- In a lot of cases, OCD is a growth issue, which, with a bit of good farriery and competent management is all but invisible by the time a horse is 2 and ready to go into training.
2- The TB breeding industry accepts a certain amount of "wastage" and the ones that don't come right simply end up at the knackers yard.
		
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I think you are right on both counts there. Number certainly is a huge factor. TB (espfor sales) are constantly 'adjusted' to give the best chance of correct growth, weight and conformation. The ones that don't sell or break down in training are a fact of racing and are 'lost'.


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## magic104 (18 June 2010)

I think the weedy comes from from the matchstick cannon bones that so many TB's have.  The amount of TB's that have a well set on kneck, good depth, only to be set on top of stick legs!  Very often these are not helped as they are quiet long in their cannon bone.

To be able to tell the value of any stallion/mare you would need to know exact quantities.  There is no point in knowing a stallion for instance produced 1000 offspring without knowing how many ended up in training.  As production plays it's part, you need to know how many had the chance to make it to Olympic level. 

So if you have 2 stallions each producing 100 offspring, stallion one had all 100 go into professional training and correctly coached & 5 make it to the Olympics against stallion 2 whose offspring have all but 30 ended up with non professional owners, yet 2 make it to the Olympics, who is the better stallion?  I am sure it will be some time yet before we see TB's omitted from the breeding of Eventers.


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## GinnieRedwings (18 June 2010)

Jamana said:



			Remember that the Flat horses you are most likely to see are not much older than 3 and very very fit.
		
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Except that most of the ones I take on for retraining are out of racing, mostly older than 3 and still I would consider "weedy". 

I actually own one such creature, 9 this year, well bred ex-flat racer by Royal Applause out of an Effisio mare. Her body is fully mature, she is in medium to hard work and well muscled. She can even develop a bit of a podge when the grass is very good. She has a good neck and rump... BUT, her chest is narrow and she has less bone than a show pony (I was going to say her canon bones are slimmer than my wrist and that wouldn't be much of an exageration). 



magic104 said:



			I think the weedy comes from from the matchstick cannon bones that so many TB's have.  The amount of TB's that have a well set on kneck, good depth, only to be set on top of stick legs!
		
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Exactly - and unfortunately I think this is part of a trend in TB breeding.

My little mare is also only just 15.3hh and although she is sound as can be and a grafter, she is no sports horse material. She will just about keep my friend happy at Novice or perhaps Elementary dressage, with her pretty paces.

I am thinking about covering her with a good native (Connemara or Welsh D) for a good sports pony with a bit of blood


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## Blacklist (20 June 2010)

magic104 said:



			I think the weedy comes from from the matchstick cannon bones that so many TB's have.  The amount of TB's that have a well set on kneck, good depth, only to be set on top of stick legs!  Very often these are not helped as they are quiet long in their cannon bone.
		
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Light boned horses do not necessarily have to be lacking in stamina or athleticism. For example the Arab can be a wonderful endurance animal.

Most of the SHB graded TB stallions have between 8&#8221; and 9&#8221; bone - when 30 years ago TB sires like Kadir Cup had up to 9.5&#8221;of bone as the most of the other HIS TB stallions. It is true the racing industry is breeding them lighter nowadays but this should not rule them out for sport horse production when a good sire can be crossed with a heavier mare - the offspring will have much merit.

(QUOTE)To be able to tell the value of any stallion/mare you would need to know exact quantities.  There is no point in knowing a stallion for instance produced 1000 offspring without knowing how many ended up in training.  As production plays it's part, you need to know how many had the chance to make it to Olympic level. 

So if you have 2 stallions each producing 100 offspring, stallion one had all 100 go into professional training and correctly coached & 5 make it to the Olympics against stallion 2 whose offspring have all but 30 ended up with non professional owners, yet 2 make it to the Olympics, who is the better stallion?  I am sure it will be some time yet before we see TB's omitted from the breeding of Eventers. (QUOTE)

Agreed v g point


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## Maesfen (20 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			Could the lack of top Showjumpers sired by TB stallions be because on the whole TB stallions have not been used much in this sphere for some time - whereas worldwide the Warmblood sire has - only a suggestion.
		
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The Americans always used to ride good Thoroughbreds and did very well with them (always with long flowing tails that I wanted to cut off to level! ) but I think half of the problem now is the Thoroughbred needs more time to mature into a competition animal as against many warmbloods that are started so early.  That doesn't mean they are sounder, by God, no, but it does mean they can be produced to be jumping at a higher level  long before a thoroughbred is ready so now, in the day of the make a quick buck, they're coming into their own.  Many Thoroughbreds can do the job as well, if not better than the dumbloods, they just need more time which people don't seem to have nowadays.


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## volatis (20 June 2010)

Yes and no. From a dressage and show jumping viewpoint, many TBs dont have the elasticity or the power required to compete at the highets levels. However with judicious use of Tb blood in a breeding program, you can take the best elements the TB has to offer without sacrificing too many of the warmblood elements you want to retain. 

If you are breeding for an amateur competitor who wants a decent horse to be competitive at medium levels, then TB blood can be even more widely used, but when breeidng for Grand Prix stock, you have to be much more selective. 

There is a nice chestnut TB stallion at Celle, Mount Etna, who to my eye looks like one with the right brain and movement to produce good dressage stock, there is also a very nice grey from the Caro line at Warendorf (name escapes me) who i want to see more of. A friend of mine over here as a super Rosario mare from a predominatly Tb mother line, who is a lovely balance of power and quality. So I will always consider the right Tb blood in my breeding program, but not the weedy, on the forehand, badly set on necks types that often fall out of the racing program and in IMHO dont have a place in sporthorse breeidng


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## burge (20 June 2010)

My current 2yr old is a pink papered Hanoverian imported from Germany as a foal and the 2 yr old I had last year both have Lauries Crusader in their pedigree.  He is a TB who was exported to Germany, accepted into the Hanoverian Stud Book and was voted 'Stallion of the Year' in 2006.  He stands at the State Stud in Celle

http://www.hannoveraner.com/542.html

The grey Exorbitant was also exported to Germany to improve Hanoverian stock.


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## Anna_B (20 June 2010)

The thoroughbred is the greatest product of British breeding- it is truly the ultimate sports horse, capable of performing at the highest level in every discipline. As Brits we should be proud to breed from and ride our own creation, rather than import hugely over-priced warmbloods from the continent. If you look at the horses that stand out over the centuries the vast majority are thoroughbreds- Over To You (greatest eventer ever), Wily Trout (Britain's best ever result in Olympic dressage), Miners Frolic, Nijinsky etc (and yes I know, Nijinsky was competing against other thoroughbreds..) In Germany a thoroughbred has even won a 160km CEI*** endurance ride!

Most breeds have some thoroughbred blood, so even if people reject thoroughbred sires in favour of warmbloods, their foals will probably have the thoroughbred influence. Thoroughbreds are beautiful, talented and vastly more intelligent than any other breed, and I feel that soon the British equestrian industry will come to realise this. Look at the British showjumpers- absolutely useless and all riding continental rubbish. Look at the British eventers- bringing home medal after medal and many of them riding thoroughbreds or thoroughbred-crosses.

Warmbloods are a fad, thoroughbreds are forever.


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## Maesfen (20 June 2010)

Oh I wish I had said that Anna_B!  Thank you.


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## Simsar (20 June 2010)

Anna_B said:



			The thoroughbred is the greatest product of British breeding- it is truly the ultimate sports horse, capable of performing at the highest level in every discipline. As Brits we should be proud to breed from and ride our own creation, rather than import hugely over-priced warmbloods from the continent. If you look at the horses that stand out over the centuries the vast majority are thoroughbreds- Over To You (greatest eventer ever), Wily Trout (Britain's best ever result in Olympic dressage), Miners Frolic, Nijinsky etc (and yes I know, Nijinsky was competing against other thoroughbreds..) In Germany a thoroughbred has even won a 160km CEI*** endurance ride!

Most breeds have some thoroughbred blood, so even if people reject thoroughbred sires in favour of warmbloods, their foals will probably have the thoroughbred influence. Thoroughbreds are beautiful, talented and vastly more intelligent than any other breed, and I feel that soon the British equestrian industry will come to realise this. Look at the British showjumpers- absolutely useless and all riding continental rubbish. Look at the British eventers- bringing home medal after medal and many of them riding thoroughbreds or thoroughbred-crosses.

Warmbloods are a fad, thoroughbreds are forever.
		
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Awesome!  Well said.


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## Jamana (20 June 2010)

Wouldn't describe these horses as weedy or light of bone

http://www.juddmonte.co.uk/stallions/raillink/default.aspx

http://www.coolmore.com/stallions-view.php?list=australia&id=38

http://www.coolmore.com/stallions-view.php?list=ireland&id=39

Those are just a selection from 2 mins of looking, there are many racing TB sires with plenty of bone. There will always be examples of sires stock that are lightly made, but the size books these horses cover (150ish in Northern Hemisphere) there will always be exceptions.

As for the lady with a mare that is small, light of bone and narrow, the fact she is by Royal Applause out of an Efisio mare tells it's own story.


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## Blacklist (20 June 2010)

Anna_B said:



			The thoroughbred is the greatest product of British breeding- it is truly the ultimate sports horse, capable of performing at the highest level in every discipline. As Brits we should be proud to breed from and ride our own creation, rather than import hugely over-priced warmbloods from the continent. If you look at the horses that stand out over the centuries the vast majority are thoroughbreds- Over To You (greatest eventer ever), Wily Trout (Britain's best ever result in Olympic dressage), Miners Frolic, Nijinsky etc (and yes I know, Nijinsky was competing against other thoroughbreds..) In Germany a thoroughbred has even won a 160km CEI*** endurance ride!

Most breeds have some thoroughbred blood, so even if people reject thoroughbred sires in favour of warmbloods, their foals will probably have the thoroughbred influence. Thoroughbreds are beautiful, talented and vastly more intelligent than any other breed, and I feel that soon the British equestrian industry will come to realise this. Look at the British showjumpers- absolutely useless and all riding continental rubbish. Look at the British eventers- bringing home medal after medal and many of them riding thoroughbreds or thoroughbred-crosses.

Warmbloods are a fad, thoroughbreds are forever.
		
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Three cheers for Anna_B


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## burge (22 June 2010)

I didn't really get my point across in my previous post but the upshot was (even though I currently own and have previously owned a warmblood) if it wasn't for the thoroughbred most foreign warmblood breeds would probably still be pulling carts!!!


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## Blacklist (22 June 2010)

burge said:



			I didn't really get my point across in my previous post but the upshot was (even though I currently own and have previously owned a warmblood) if it wasn't for the thoroughbred most foreign warmblood breeds would probably still be pulling carts!!!
		
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Well writ!


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## angrovestud (22 June 2010)

Not enoght studs are in the UK are uterlising TB blood its bings so much to the quality of the progeny.


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## Doncella (22 June 2010)

GinnieRedwings said:



			Eothain, can I please build a shrine to you & your (most of the time) absolutely spot on posts? 



Forgetmenot, sorry, I don't know how to put this in a way that doesn't sound rude... but a show hack is not and never will be a sports horse in my eyes. 

The Sea Hawk ridden by Harvey Smith was a top class large hack in South Africa before becoming a showjumper at age 16.

Lucky Strike ridden by Malcom Pyrah wasn't he a former show hack and didn't he win a Puissance?
		
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## Doncella (22 June 2010)

Anna_B said:



			The thoroughbred is the greatest product of British breeding- it is truly the ultimate sports horse, capable of performing at the highest level in every discipline. As Brits we should be proud to breed from and ride our own creation, rather than import hugely over-priced warmbloods from the continent. If you look at the horses that stand out over the centuries the vast majority are thoroughbreds- Over To You (greatest eventer ever), Wily Trout (Britain's best ever result in Olympic dressage), Miners Frolic, Nijinsky etc (and yes I know, Nijinsky was competing against other thoroughbreds..) In Germany a thoroughbred has even won a 160km CEI*** endurance ride!

Most breeds have some thoroughbred blood, so even if people reject thoroughbred sires in favour of warmbloods, their foals will probably have the thoroughbred influence. Thoroughbreds are beautiful, talented and vastly more intelligent than any other breed, and I feel that soon the British equestrian industry will come to realise this. Look at the British showjumpers- absolutely useless and all riding continental rubbish. Look at the British eventers- bringing home medal after medal and many of them riding thoroughbreds or thoroughbred-crosses.

Warmbloods are a fad, thoroughbreds are forever.
		
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You said it.


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## Eothain (22 June 2010)

Now I'm sorry, but claiming Warmbloods to be a fad is a bit extreme. Thoroughbred blood alone isn't going to create superstar showjumpers. Eventers, yes, see my original post for more but for jumping horses it's a bit different. Like I said already, Thoroughbreds bring the blood and quality. The modern Warmbloods bring everything else.

I say modern Warmbloods because Warmblood breeding is where it is and no amount longing for the days of Ladykiller, Furioso and the other foundation Thoroughbreds is going to change the reality of 2010.

The Warmblood studbooks can, with thanks to their Thoroughbred ancestory, stand on their own 2 feet (or their own 4 hooves whichever!), but the simple fact is, Ireland and Britain need and I stress the word need, to get over the past, take a look at where we are and build on what we have today going forward. The breeding of the 60s and 70s won't create the jumpers of tomorrow.

Yes, one should look for high quality stallion descendents of those bloodlines to use and yes it is evident that good quality thoroughbred blood on the dam side is essential regardless of if it's 1, 2 or 3 generations back but to say the British showjumpers are on rubbish horses is merely taking away the credibility of any argument.

Peppermill ... Rubbish?
Robin Hood W ... Rubbish?
Casino ... Rubbish?
Portofino ... Rubbish?
Locarno ... Rubbish?
Rupert R ... Rubbish?
Rosinus ... Rubbish?

I think not!


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## Simsar (22 June 2010)

Eothain, just out of interest how many of the above horses were British or Irish bred?


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## Forgetmenot (22 June 2010)

Doncella said:





GinnieRedwings said:



			Eothain, can I please build a shrine to you & your (most of the time) absolutely spot on posts? 



Forgetmenot, sorry, I don't know how to put this in a way that doesn't sound rude... but a show hack is not and never will be a sports horse in my eyes. 

The Sea Hawk ridden by Harvey Smith was a top class large hack in South Africa before becoming a showjumper at age 16.

Lucky Strike ridden by Malcom Pyrah wasn't he a former show hack and didn't he win a Puissance?
		
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Thank you. I have seen so many TB stallions that have sired both showring winners (Hacks/Riding Horses etc) that can also sire performance horses. Groomsbridge May is one that springs to mind, Ottergayles another along with Liboi.

I also think that whilst the warmblood has its place stamped in the future of performance horses, like most breeds there are too many lesser rate stallions avaliable at stud because of its breeding.

Whilst I love my warmbloods and have 2 proven stallions at stud with another ready to start competition, theres a glut of non starters at stud. Sorry I know thats off topic.
		
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## Eothain (23 June 2010)

Simsar said:



			Eothain, just out of interest how many of the above horses were British or Irish bred?
		
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Just one. Casino(ISH), who is by the Holsteiner stallion Cavalier Royale. Point is that saying they are foreign rubbish while they go out week after week after month after month and whup tail in the ring is a nonsensical argument.

There's a really nice young AES stallion called Billy Congo jumping Internationally. He's by the KWPN stallion Vechta off an Animo/Clover Hill mare. If you're looking for an example of what these "rubbish" horses can produce for Britain, then look no further!

Ever hear of him? 



Forgetmenot said:





Doncella said:



			Whilst I love my warmbloods and have 2 proven stallions at stud with another ready to start competition, theres a glut of non starters at stud. Sorry I know thats off topic.
		
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Therein lies the problem we all face. Stallions at stud because of a flashy pedigree but nothing to back it up. That's where the rubbish is
		
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## sallyf (23 June 2010)

Forgetmenot said:





Doncella said:



			Thank you. I have seen so many TB stallions that have sired both showring winners (Hacks/Riding Horses etc) that can also sire performance horses. Groomsbridge May is one that springs to mind, Ottergayles another along with Liboi.

I also think that whilst the warmblood has its place stamped in the future of performance horses, like most breeds there are too many lesser rate stallions avaliable at stud because of its breeding.

Whilst I love my warmbloods and have 2 proven stallions at stud with another ready to start competition, theres a glut of non starters at stud. Sorry I know thats off topic.
		
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I will also agree with this just because a stallion such as May I sires horses that win in the showring it doesnt mean he cant produce competition horses.
In fact if people looked further than the fact that he has produced show winners they would see that his mother was a proven competition mare that competed successfully at 1.35 level with an amateur competing just once a week.
They would also know that said mothers siblings evented with success and also that he has a pedigree full of horses that have produced horses competing at the top level.
So it is no surprise to ourselves that his offspring are showing talent and are not just pretty faces.
		
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## Anna_B (23 June 2010)

What I meant by describing the showjumpers as rubbish was that they are not bringing home medals- when was the last time Britain won a senior medal in showjumping at European, World or Olympic level? These horses might be improving and winning national classes and even Nation's Cups, but on the international stage Britain have been a laughing stock for a long time.


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## Eothain (23 June 2010)

A laughing stock? Not from where I'm sat, thats for sure. Britain is still held with the highest respect as a showjumping nation from what I can gather. There's nothing wrong with capitulating at a tournament to the Dutch, Germans or French. They're juggernauts


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## Serenity087 (23 June 2010)

My child is half racehorse!  And I think there is no doubt that she will make a lovely sports horse! 

Maybe not flashy, although her mother can chuck out the moves when she feels like it (not bad for what's probably IDXcob!) - but very, very nice!!

IMO, the breed tag isn't everything.  Some TBs are utterly useless - so are some warmbloods.  If people were looking more at conformation, competition history and mare type than just the big names in the pedigree and matching mares to the right stallions to produce the offspring the industry wants then it would be more obvious that every stallion has his place.  

Breeding, not breed, is what decides the best horses.  And even though I've famously dissed TB's on here for years now, my little crossbred racehorse is definitely a nice foal!


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## Truly (23 June 2010)

Unfortunately if the  British and the Irish had been as clever and as disaplined at keeping breeding and competition records and promoting their stock as the Germans and Dutch we wouldn't be having this conversation 

The Americans had Gem Twist and other lines of TB Show Jumpers that could still win over todays technical tracks...but they all but let them die out because of the lure that Europeans had something better.

Wily Trout has still argubly the best passage because of his TB hind leg.

Oliver Townend said at a demo I was at that he preferred a TB or as close as because he tried the warmbloods that looked and were bred much like a TB but they ran out of steam when it mattered.

It's weird how the Germans and Dutch realise the importance of the TB but we don't!!!!

The TB stallions that built their dynasty weren't even our best stallions!

I just hope and pray that there are enough of us out there that still have the faith and the passion to keep these lines alive.

I also think the argument that yesteryears horses could not jump todays technical tracks is more to do with how our riders have improved..todays horses are better schooled!

MHO FWIW 

Just wish we had a TB fan over here (England /Ireland) that had the business sense like Paul Schockemohle ..I don't think the Irish charm or the reserved English talk works anymore


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## volatis (24 June 2010)

Truly said:



			Just wish we had a TB fan over here (England /Ireland) that had the business sense like Paul Schockemohle ..I don't think the Irish charm or the reserved English talk works anymore 

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Or the money! The sheer size of his operation and the ruthlessness is what produces his champions. There is no soft spot for a favourite bloodline if it doesnt produce the goods it is out of here. They know what they are looking for (in dressage horses and show jumpers) and if it aint good enough it goes. I dont think there are many British breeders that are focused enough on the end game of producing grand prix horses, we are still too soft for want of a better word. It is a serious business here, and there isnt the sentimental attachment we Brits usually have for our horses. I suppose when you have hundreds and thousands of horses, its difficult to get too attached.


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## magic104 (24 June 2010)

volatis said:



			Or the money! The sheer size of his operation and the ruthlessness is what produces his champions. There is no soft spot for a favourite bloodline if it doesnt produce the goods it is out of here. They know what they are looking for (in dressage horses and show jumpers) and if it aint good enough it goes. I dont think there are many British breeders that are focused enough on the end game of producing grand prix horses, we are still too soft for want of a better word. It is a serious business here, and there isnt the sentimental attachment we Brits usually have for our horses. I suppose when you have hundreds and thousands of horses, its difficult to get too attached.
		
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TBH Volatis I would rather that, as much as I believe some people should double think whether their mare is good enough, I dont want to see us factory farm our horses.  No disrespect to anyone, it is the numbers I am against not culling out what is not sound or a good prospect as a ridden animal.  I am all for improving on breeding quality animals, but not at the expense of them becoming a number.  I understand it is a numbers game, but I like the fact that most UK bred horses are treated like an individual.


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## TarrSteps (24 June 2010)

I don't understand why these discussions always become "because some TB is good in a sport horse, the best sport horse must be full TB".  OF COURSE, "sport type", well balanced, athletic, ridable horses have a place in breeding for competition, TB or not.  But doesn't that beg the question, if there are so many TB stallions like that about, how come they aren't beating the warmblood books at their own game?  Perhaps some people want a "statement" horse but pros want a horse that wins and trust me, if you give them a TB that can jump - and win - GPs they won't have a problem with it.  Surely it's the mix that's important?  I love a G&T but straight tonic or neat gin just isn't the same! 

When people talk about TBs in warmblood breeding the same names come up again and again.  Yes, Lauries Crusader (whom I love) was "talent spotted" by the Germans and brought into the book specially - largely in a very specific attempt to improve canters - but it's not like the picked some random TB.  They must have looked at many . . . and they only took him. Then they were very careful with the crosses.  Then they assessed and culled the result, taking only the best forward into the next breeding generation. Same with most of the other "big" TB sport influences - they were horses that LOOKED and PERFORMED (even just in testing) like sport horses.  (Interestingly, despite what people *think* TBs should be good at, LCs jumping influence has been decidedly average.)

Some of it may be that good TB sires command prices riding markets can't match.  And their best offspring will stay in the racing world as breeding stock.  That said, though, it's not like there's a shortage of horses coming out of racing and some breeders DO pick and chose through these for broodmares BUT they have to have the goods and they have to pass them on.  Presumably, if these mares were the best for the job, the warmblood books would be snapping them up. 

AND they have to be suitable for SPORT, which is about more than being fast.  Many good race horses would be good sport horses but it doesn't necessarily follow, particularly now in the days of big money yearling sales and an emphasis on early speed.  Sprinters, for example, are not usually built in a way that's going to make them top GP dressage horses later on.  If you look at photos of "old time" TBs and warmbloods, in some cases they are virtually unrecognisable as the same breeds.  People have spent a lot of time and energy refining and specialising.  This might be good or bad, depending on your opinion, but now it just is and some of that process means horses for courses are increasingly far apart and not suitable for doing all jobs.


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## TarrSteps (24 June 2010)

Stupid forum . . 

In closing . . 

By the way, on the subject that the British are "badly mounted" because of the continental horses they're riding . . . EVERYONE rides the same horses now.  AI means anyone, anywhere, can breed to almost any line.  (So long as it ships, of course, but that's another conversation.)  The people who beat them ride the same breeding, as do the people they beat.  There might be an argument that the Germans etc don't sell their best (although business is business) but then doesn't that beg the question, why aren't horses of the same breeding necessarily reaching the same heights elsewhere? 

Eventing is a bit of a different game, for sure.  Obviously the demands make it more TB friendly.  But what does that have to do with sj or dressage?


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## maestro (24 June 2010)

TarrSteps has touched on a subject close to my heart, and Im the biggest fan of the TB owning a 15/16th TB Stallion who in many peoples opinions in his younger days could have succeeded in any discipline we had have chosen.
But there is always this talk that UK is under horsed when the reality is that they are undertrained/or underdeveloped, that is changing rapidly with Lottery funding, not always perfect but is creating a much more knowledgable and hungry rider.
The TB will always be the real quality that produces a sport horse and they are evolving as well as the warmbloods.


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## Truly (24 June 2010)

magic104 said:



			TBH Volatis I would rather that, as much as I believe some people should double think whether their mare is good enough, I dont want to see us factory farm our horses.  No disrespect to anyone, it is the numbers I am against not culling out what is not sound or a good prospect as a ridden animal.  I am all for improving on breeding quality animals, but not at the expense of them becoming a number.  I understand it is a numbers game, but I like the fact that most UK bred horses are treated like an individual.
		
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Oh God...I didn't mean factory farm them...I hate the way the Europeans do that!
I've seen so many imported warmbloods with socialising/behavioural issues because of the way they are raised over there (good to be ridden in a school tho')

I mean't the business brain and confidence to promote and produce them.

Most serious breeders over here are wonderful horsemen but lack the gift of the gab and are too reserved to boast and promote their stock...
Paul Schockemohle was a business man first I believe then a breeder/seller.
Most  English/Irish breeders are from farming backgrounds.
It's like comparing Land Rover and Mercedes.


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## Truly (24 June 2010)

TarrSteps said:



			Stupid forum . . 

In closing . . 

By the way, on the subject that the British are "badly mounted" because of the continental horses they're riding . . . EVERYONE rides the same horses now.  AI means anyone, anywhere, can breed to almost any line.  (So long as it ships, of course, but that's another conversation.)  The people who beat them ride the same breeding, as do the people they beat.  There might be an argument that the Germans etc don't sell their best (although business is business) but then doesn't that beg the question, why aren't horses of the same breeding necessarily reaching the same heights elsewhere?
		
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The British aren't badly mounted...we just can't afford to keep a good horse here!

Ben Maher sold Wonder Boy recently 

Our show jumpers earn their money from selling not winning...our prize money is pathetic compared to other countries .....it's a crying shame


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## angrovestud (26 June 2010)

I think if we are to really understand and change our breeding programmes over here we should infact copy the Europeans and find very good TB jumping lines we have done that here at our stud, but it needs to be done by a organisation that rewards the TB sire's somehow and create a market, it needs to be run and promoted along side the young horse evaluations british sires or something not bought in from the EU.
the photo is a two year old colt by captain maverick, out of a mare by Gunner B






he was gelded and then won the puissance, was then sold to the USA, the DNA lives on here in the UK but very nearly lost as we did not gather information no one collates progeny or cares, or even finds out if a horse when its done well has offspring,breeders arent all trained in research and its very hard and takes years to put the pieces together 












and state side where his talent went on retired last year at 18.


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## Blacklist (26 June 2010)

My thread on News forum 'Horses for Meat' mentions this:  On the continent the big sport horse breeders separate the wheat from the chaff - keeping the wheat for performance and sending the chaff for meat. (or sending some of the the chaff here to the UK!)


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## Doncella (26 June 2010)

Blacklist said:



			My thread on News forum 'Horses for Meat' mentions this:  On the continent the big sport horse breeders separate the wheat from the chaff - keeping the wheat for performance and sending the chaff for meat. (or sending some of the the chaff here to the UK!)
		
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This has been my arguement.  On the continent the rubbish simply ends up on the plate or over here.


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