# Random...



## endymion (21 August 2006)

Ok, I'm getting bored of going over the same old hunting arguments so was wondering what, if any, types of animal cruelty some of you pros are against and exactly what type of action you would be prepared to take against it....


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## CARREG (21 August 2006)

I dont like the "preforming bear" type activities you see abroad or any type of cruelty where the animal has no chance of escape, baiting etc, what would I do about it, I've donated money to help stamp out these forms of cruelty............Carreg


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

You can't agree with terrierwork then.


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## allijudd (21 August 2006)

I am against any form of cruelty especially to do with horses, dogs or cats. I would do whatever it takes to stop cruelty if I witness it. 
If I had witnessed what was described on the ANTIS=TERRORISTS string yesterday
"my cousins mate had great delight in breaking the leg of a pony that was out hunting! And he says Huntings cruel?????"
I can guarantee the person who did that would at best no longer be walking, at worst be in a box. Actions like that are inexcusable, and as tollerant as I am, breaking a pony's leg because it is taking part in a hunt is totally out of order. 
Apart from hunting Endy, what other animal cruelty are you against and what would you do about it?


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## Hercules (21 August 2006)

Antis spraying hounds with ammonia and citronella to ruin the scent.  Antis releasing animals into an environment which they are incapable of fending for themselves.  

What sort of action would I take?  Hit the mongs with the full weight of the law.


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

But you don't obey the law, do you?


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## AlanE (21 August 2006)

Endy, I'm against cruelty of any sort, but I think you need to define what YOU mean by the term.

I think there is confusion between what we call 'natural' and 'unnatural', for example. battery chickens. Unnatural, maybe. Cruel, no.

I think real cruelty is committed by anti-hunters who ignore the results of their actions. They are people haters whose  gratification is trying to crush certain sections of society. They don't care if animals suffer as a result, and have a wall of hypocrisy which 'protects' them from reality.

In terms of cruelty to wild mammals, then live-trapping is probably the least humane method, since an animal is in a totally frightening and alien space.  Hunting, as you would expect, where the animal is free until the last second (of proper hunting) is of course tops in humanity and conservation; at one with nature.


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## endymion (21 August 2006)

Why just horses, cats and dogs? 

Apart from protesting I've been veggie for 19 yrs, do fundraising, volunteer a bit when I've time and am just finishing my degree in conservation so hopefully someone will pay me for doing this full-time. 

And if I ever saw a sab hurt an animal then I'd break their legs too! But I'ver saw anything apart form loved-up encounters with hounds...


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## CARREG (21 August 2006)

".....You can't agree with terrierwork then....."

I'll assume thats directed at me, what makes you think that, in the 30 yrs Ive been working terriers Ive never blocked a fox to ground to intentionally dig it, every time I enter a terrier to ground every hole is netted if possible and the fox dispatched as soon as is humanly possible...............Carreg


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## endymion (21 August 2006)

I think each individual defines animal cruelty in their own way. I'm just interested to how pros approach the subject.


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## RunToEarth (21 August 2006)

Cruelty...I cant speak of bull fighting, I have never experienced therefor dont deserve to form opinion on it. The only kind I have come accross it cruelty to horses, mine in particular. Having spent the past year with a head shy/man shy/ noise shy/ stranger shy little horse, I can quite safely say, I dont agree with the way some horses are handler/broken and punished.


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## Hercules (21 August 2006)

But you don't obey the law, do you?
		
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Correct.  I recently picked up a parking ticket and a speeding fine.


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## allijudd (21 August 2006)

LACS, I see you are new here and I hope you will join in enjoyable debate on the forum. If you look at my other posts you will see that I am not a hunter but I do not believe in removing traditions or people's freedoms. I also try to point out to people that meaningfull debate is far more enjoyable and constructive than mud flinging and trading insults. 
So I will as you this:
What was the benefit or gain by your posting above? Do you know the person it was aimed at personally and that they break the law, or are you just assuming they do?
I would suggest that you make friends on the forum and discuss points of view. It is very easy to alienate yourself from people who disagree with your views AND people who agree but not in the manner in which you go about presenting your view.


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

Several points:

1. You know as well as I do that some terriermen deliberately block the fox in so it has no chance of escape. They take pride in their dogs which are "hard" which can take "punishment" from the fox. 

2. Are you saying that in every single instance during your last 30 years the fox has bolted? You've never had to dig down to it?

3. You're setting your terrier onto a wild animal. That is baiting, yet you claim to abhor this.

4. Do you get paid for your terrierwork?


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## allijudd (21 August 2006)

Endy,
Are you trying to make out that pros are any more or less human than the antis?
As far as I can see we all breathe, eat sleep etc and are human. Just because we have differing opinions on ONE subject does not at all suggest that pros condone cruelty in any form, and really it depends on people's viewpoint.
For exampe the Massi(sp) tribe send out the male when he believes he is ready to go and kill a lion with his bare hands. Some people might think it is cruel on the man because the lion is stronger, but he has to do it to gain respect from his peers. Activists might think its cruel for the lion because its a long drawn out fight to the death which is rarely quick, and the lion suffers, BUT it is traditional and the tribe will continue as it always has.


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

What a load of crap. One of the most beneficial aspects of debate is that provides the opportunity for "mud flinging and trading insults". That's healthy and far more interesting than boring sanitised LibDem-style waffle. If people don't like it they can get stuffed!


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## CARREG (21 August 2006)

1. Problem foxes would be blocked in by order of the landowner, this is done obviously to ensure the fox doesnt escape, Ive seen hundreds still get away so the chance is still there

2. no

3. Baiting to me is putting animals wild or domestic in a situation and encouraging them to fight when they have no chance of escape, every fox I enter a terrier to has every chance of bolting therefore in my opinion this isnt baiting

4. yes....why..??


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

1. Are you saying terriermen only even block the fox in at the request of the landowner? Are you saying that some terriermen don't take pride in the hardness of their dogs and the wounds they receive? Would you like me to provide genuine quotes to back up my comments?

2. To put it mildly, it's statistically improbable that you've never ever dug out a fox in 30 years.

3. Baiting is setting an animal on another animal. This is what you do.

4. Are you paid for every "terrierwork job" you do?


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## allijudd (21 August 2006)

So in your own words you would prefer to degenerate what was qiute a good thread into a pointless name calling waste of time? Well to be honest, I kind of expected that kind of childish backwards behaviour.......... your user name follows on from the biggest bunch of toss*rs who are full of c*ap and lies, so why sould you be any different....

Sorry Endy I was hoping this thread was going to be different, but obviously not.


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

Where have I called people names? The only person who has done this so far in the thread is your good self.


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## CARREG (21 August 2006)

1. no

2. you asked...." Are you saying that in every single instance during your last 30 years the fox has bolted? You've never had to dig down to it?........I answered; NO

3. Thats your opinion, one to which you are fully entitled, as I am mine

4. yes, in one way or another....I'll ask again...why..??


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## allijudd (21 August 2006)

Thats not name calling........ just the truth about a group of people who represent animal welfare...ummm not for the foxes welfare thats for sure.

What does LACS stand for then???
Losers Against Common Sense?

Not name calling, just asking the question, and by the way what will happen to the hunting bill when the conservatives get in? I wonder


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

1. The first sensible thing you've said.

2. Precisely. Let's abandon for ever this fiction that foxes are NEVER dug to. To most civilised people this practice is the most distasteful form of baiting.

3. See (2). Your opinion, I believe, is shared by a tiny proportion of the population. The vast majority are sickened by what you do.

4. Another improbable claim. In 30 years you've been paid for every single fox you've killed?


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## Hercules (21 August 2006)

allij,

I agree with you, so I apologise in advance.  LACS is an ignorant prick.

Back to the debate.


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

You criticise me for "name calling" (a) when I haven't called anyone names and (b) when you call people you happen to disagree with "tossers". I see just the tiniest inconsistency here.

If the Tories get in I'm sure they'll get rid of the Hunting Act.


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

More intolerance. More childish name-calling.


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## allijudd (21 August 2006)

If you read what i originally put, it was to say that joining the forum and then accusing someone you DONT know of breaking the law........ is a bit rich really. but you obviously missed the point I was making by a mile and said debate is all about mud flinging and name calling..... i am just indulging you in what you see as a "good debate"


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## allijudd (21 August 2006)

Also I think you should read some of my other postings.... i am very tollerant untill someone is so stupid as to say "what a load of crap" then expect my tollerance level to be very very limited.


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

I merely put it to my good friend Hercules that he broke the law, something which he quickly confirmed. I don't think that's descending to the level of "name-calling" or "mud-slinging".

However, if you wish to resort to these aspects of debate I'm delighted. You're much more interesting when you drop the Mother Teresa act.


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

I formally withdraw my "crap" ejaculation, so to speak. I hope you love me again now.


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## allijudd (21 August 2006)

Believe me I am no Mother Teresa, but I can never see the point of degenerating what could be a good debate into the usual drivvel when pros and antis get going on here. I am a pro but not because i hunt cos I dont. I take it by your screen name you have some connection with that organisation?


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

I'm all for rigorous debate but, I'm sorry, I really can't take pious lessons about the need to eliminate "drivvel" from someone who says:

"What does LACS stand for then???
Losers Against Common Sense?"

This is just childish and adds nothing to the debate. I can understand why people dislike or even hate the LACS but this sort of puerile name-calling gets us nowhere. However, I've decided to forgive you, just this once.

And with that, dearest Miss, I must leave you for a while. I'm off for a run!


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## allijudd (21 August 2006)

I will forgive you this once........ what makes you think I am a Miss??


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## Fairynuff (21 August 2006)

OOOhhh, are you sexist? Why should A be female?
 I think I may have met the person in a carpark in Crawley about a year ago. IF its the same person, it it about 6 feet Nine and a quarter and has long waist length hair that starts at the shoulder. cant honestly say as to which sex it pertains as genitals covered by a grass skirt (plus it was dark and foggy). Sorry, youve lost "Brownie Points" with that assumption-"laddie?" M. (female till proven otherwise)


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## CARREG (21 August 2006)

Ive never said, or ever heard anyone say foxes were never dug, you seem to be over dramatising something no-one has even said

just because my opinion is shared by a minority does that make it wrong, if my opinion was the same as the majority who would like to reintroduce capital punishment would that make that particular opinion right

In one way or another Ive been paid for killing the foxes Ive killed, but its not always my job, what part of that cant you understand


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## allijudd (21 August 2006)

CARREG, I thought we were a majority!
58% said keep hunting, i'd say that was a majority :0)


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## mrdarcy (21 August 2006)

Interesting debate.

AlanE - I'm not sure I agree with you about battery chickens.  Yes it's certainly unnatural but even if the intention isn't to be cruel to the birds the living conditions imposed on the birds most certainly are...  The fact that they can't engage in any natural behaviour and exhibit classic signs of stress is surely a form of cruelty?

I certainly would never eat eggs from battery chickens, or eat broiler produced chicken.  I hate any form of intensive farming, if we're going to keep animals to consume the least we owe them is the highest standard of care, which includes being kept in as natural a state as is possible.


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## allijudd (21 August 2006)

GG, as much as i agree to a degree with your point (conditions now are much better than they were) the general public are to blame for caged hens still being farmed. The consumer can make a choice in what they buy, but the most popular eggs from tesco by volume are blue stripe (caged hens) people will always buy cheap look at new zealand lamb compared to british reared..... is come half way round the world and not as fresh and IMO not as good, but its cheap, and people buy it. Wether its right or wrong, intensive farming will always be used for as long as the consumer public wants CHEAP food.


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## mrdarcy (21 August 2006)

allij

You're absolutely right - as long as the general public buy factory farmed food farmers will produce it.  It's not a simple problem by any means.  Many people would like to buy free range/organic/British reared produce but just can't afford to, others  have no real concept of the conditions some animals are kept in.  Equally all the farmers I know would much rather keep their animals in as natural a way as possible but unless its cost affective their hands are tied.


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## Clodagh (21 August 2006)

Hi Endy, good to see you back Warming up for the new season?? 
I disagree with 'intensive' farming, as my protest I don't buy animals from that type of background.
I disagree, like Carreg, with baiting.
I disagree with bullfighting, but as Rosie says I haven't seen it.
I disagree with the intensive rearing of gamebirds to be shot and buried, I support and enjoy walked up shooting for supper.
I feel sorry for carp!! lol!!
I only support charities like ILPH, Donkey Santuary, Brooks and so on. Not because I necessarily think they are the most deserving, but I can't support them all.
Good question, though.


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## allijudd (21 August 2006)

Trouble is it is cost effective to be extensive, but the supermarkets make it un tennable.
Milk: 17pence per litre at farm gate = 36pence per PINT (80 pence per litre)
cost of production 16 pence per litre
Lamb at market £60 per head, weight aprox 50 kg supermarket price average £7 per kilo

If supermarkets were not distorting the marketplace for their own profit, everybody would be better off.


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## mrdarcy (21 August 2006)

Again I agree but we also can't forget that a lot of farmers made a lot of money from supermarkets.  Now the supermarkets are squeezing farmer's profits to increase their own... but that's how business works.

Unfortunately for a lot of people shopping at supermarkets is their only option and distorting the prices on certain produce allows the supermarkets to reduce prices on other items.


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

"Ive never said, or ever heard anyone say foxes were never dug, you seem to be over dramatising something no-one has even said"

You gave the impression that all foxes you killed were bolted into nets. This isn't the case. Most people, I suspect, find the idea of a fox being held at bay by a terrier underground, or worse - fighting with the terrier, very upsetting.

"just because my opinion is shared by a minority does that make it wrong"

Doesn't make it right either. 

"In one way or another Ive been paid for killing the foxes Ive killed"

I don't believe you. For thirty years you've killed foxes, and you claim you've benn paid for every single death, without exception?


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

This is simple to clear up: Alli are you a girl or not?

What makes you think I'm a laddie, Mairi?

Anyway, a bit of sexism is good.


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## wurzel (21 August 2006)

I think the way LACS abuse the deer at Barlynch is very cruel.

Why do they torture the deer so?


"Local landowners and officers of the Exmoor Deer Management Society were very co-operative in the culling eight red deer on the land surrounding the LACS sanctuary at Baronsdown under the auspices of Hugh Rose, who conducted basic post mortem examinations before carcasses were submitted to VLA Langford for further examination and culture. The result of this collection was very disturbing indeed:



Six calves were culled [two female, four male] - four had clearly visible lesions

Two two-year-old hinds were culled  one had clearly visible lesions

All the samples submitted for culture proved positive for bTB 



These results have been sent to the LACS veterinary surgeon with a request to share data on any samples submitted from within the sanctuary. LACS has declined to exchange information. "

These people are sick !!


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## severnmiles (21 August 2006)

You can't agree with terrierwork then.
		
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What a t**t!  Terrier work isn't even close to resembling baiting an animal.


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

It is precisely the same as baiting. If you require evidence I'm very happy to provide genuine quotes from terriermen describing their "sport". Would you like me to do this?


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## severnmiles (21 August 2006)

"You gave the impression that all foxes you killed were bolted into nets. This isn't the case. Most people, I suspect, find the idea of a fox being held at bay by a terrier underground, or worse - fighting with the terrier, very upsetting."

Why?

"Doesn't make it right either."

Why not?

"I don't believe you. For thirty years you've killed foxes, and you claim you've benn paid for every single death, without exception"

What does that matter?


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## severnmiles (21 August 2006)

No ta.  Seen it in the flesh.  Video's can be doctored, I would be careful watching video's from a source named LACS, they are one organisation who are well known for fiddling with so called evidence.


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

Not videos - quotes. Carreg can vouch for their authenticity. Would you like me to reproduce them here?


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## CARREG (21 August 2006)

Over 90% [as Ive stated before] on here of the foxes I account for with my terriers are bolted, I also honestly believe 99.9% of the Great British public havent got a clue about terrier work much like yourself, we can all pick and choose bits off the www

Now you answer me, if the majority of people are in favour of the death penalty does it make it right

whether you believe me or not is of no concern to me...again I ask you, why does it matter, are you trying to cleverly manouvere me into saying I do it for fun, well this much I'll tell you, I enjoy working my dogs I see it as a far less cruel method than some other methods Ive seen used...If you dont agree, I wont lose any sleep over it..............Carreg


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## severnmiles (21 August 2006)

Go ahead...


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## severnmiles (21 August 2006)

Carreg,

99.9% of this country know sweet F.A about foxhunting let alone terrier work.


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## RunToEarth (21 August 2006)

"It is precisely the same as baiting."
.....................
Just what this forum needs. Another nonce that likes to think they know something about everything. 
You might want to think about what you just wrote, because I beg to differ, as would everybody educated with terriers in this damn country.


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

99.9% of the country probably knows FA about bestiality or incest. It isn't much of an argument.


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

"On Sunday October 4th, I entered my Russell dog 'Sam' in a two holed spot on a disused railway banking at Ryehill. It is a well known spot for foxes and over the years many have been bolted from it. After 'Sam' had been in for 30 minutes a fox bolted.

After waiting a while and no sign of 'Sam' coming out I went to listen and could hear him strongly baying at a second fox. After waiting all day and no sign of the dog or the fox coming out I decided to enter my bitch 'Bella'.

Both terriers could be heard getting to grips with the fox. I waited till 11pm when I blocked both holes and went home. I returned at 6.30am the next morning with Tony Bannister. We could hear both terriers and we both thought they were fast so we started digging. It soon became obvious that we needed some help because after a couple of feet we came across a lot of large rocks. I went home and rounded up some more Fell and Moorland Working Terrier Club lads. I returned with four more plus a Tirfor. After digging until 7.30pm it was obvious that we had a long way to go as the terriers could be heard right down in the bottom of the bank under a lot of large rocks.

On Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday digging continued all day long. By mid morning Saturday the terriers could be heard getting nearer all the time. At 2pm we were very close and by moving some small rocks the bitch squeezed out, followed by the dog.

After SIX DAYS to ground both terriers were saved due to the tremendous effort by the club. After backfilling celebrations were held at the nearby pub."


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## CARREG (21 August 2006)

Hmmm, very poor reply, looks like we've found you out early enough, you gonna answer the other questions I asked or would that be asking to much.............Carreg


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

Silly little girl. Go to bed -you've got teletubbies in the morning!


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

I guess you're referring to "Now you answer me, if the majority of people are in favour of the death penalty does it make it right"

No, doesn't make it wrong either.


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## Onyxia (21 August 2006)

Silly little girl. Go to bed -you've got teletubbies in the morning!
.............................................................................................

Its taken 28 posts for you to start insulting people? Bit slow for a troll isnt it?


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

Do you think it's an insult to call someone a nonce?


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

"I have never had a terrier with sticky up ears but in the good old days when badger digging was still legal in the UK, I have several times had badgers bite of the dogs ears."


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

"At sixteen weeks old the dog should be doing caged rats but at ten weeks give it a go should do them no problem sounds like he wants to do it now, put the mice in the cage next to him and see what he does, if he stands there its not the right time if he starts to bit the cage let them wind the dog up a bit before letting the mice or rat out, keep up posted and post a pic for us all to see.

When I think the dogs ready for a fox let them enter at their own pace, usually with an experienced terrier, my last entry entered at nine month old, at the end of the dig, she nearly pulled the face off a fox."


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## CARREG (21 August 2006)

Would you like to take us through the events that happened in your own words, copying and pasting is all well and good but I'd like you to explain what you think has gone on ...............Carreg


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

"They reckon the most dangerous are the dogs that attack the rear legs of another dog or animal bringing it down to throat at their leisuremakes sense if you think about itas for digging, a lot of foxes killed have their lower jaw smashed or broken, effectively stopping them defending themselves, then get throated."


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## severnmiles (21 August 2006)

99.9% of the country probably knows FA about bestiality or incest. It isn't much of an argument.
		
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Your point being?  Incest or bestiality is not fox control, protecting the livelihoods of farmers and keepers.


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

"From inside the borran you could hear the sound of a terrier fighting a fox. It went on for an hour, a terrible screaming, mixed with silence and barks followed by complete silence. Eight feet down the terriers began to chew at the warm corpse in front of them, they wouldnt come out until they finished and were full."


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## severnmiles (21 August 2006)

Badger take a bite of or bit it off?

Not a clear one....


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

"A couple of months of ago my son chickens got taken by a fox so we set the trap, caught nowt and forgot about it, went onto the back field today to check on the sheep (ya i shag them) and next door farmer tells me I got some think in the trap, so upon looking I see its a cub no older then 12 weeks as it had all its young teeth, I was in to minds to let it go but the farmer who has over the years lost birds to foxes made me see sense! by saying this in a year could be taken the rest! So of I go and get my terrier Igot from trev (tested) lmfao.. along with a 9 month old first bull x, so I lifted the door to the trap and the terrier flew in and nailed the little cub until this little fellow bit him back, the terrier was in shock lol, and the cub was on the terriers back hissing at him and trying with its little teeth to bite him... 

Well I tried to get the terrier out but the cub was by the door so no way would the terrier go past it. lmfao...so i went to get my 5 year old bitch who has been in two digs lasting 2 and 3 hours to rescue my big bad Tyson dog..lol. The bitch went mad as soon as she seen the cub and Tyson was hiding in the corner lol, so in goes the bitch the cubs leaps on her and she to ends up in the corner ...now I am pissing myself along with the next door farmer, the bitch was more interested in eating the bait.... So I decided to let the cub go hoping deep down my bullx would nail him! Well I let the cub go it first went for me and the farmer fell over pissing himself, then the cub ran off with the bullx in pursuit ya!!! no the bull x was playing with it....3 big bad dogs cured to a 12 week old cub!!!! I havent laughed so much in years! seeing was believing...the farmer honestly pissed himself!!!! after it tried to get me..lol....the rest is history....LMFOA....I wish i could say this was made up to save face for my dogs but that was one f##k or of a cub..lol....those sharp teeth were awesome..."


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## Onyxia (21 August 2006)

Care to name your source? 
Or do we just asume one of the voices in your head told you?


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

Ask Carreg - they're all from members of his site.


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## LACS (21 August 2006)

Not clear, I agree. But you're talking about terriermen: it's a miracle they can write at all.


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## severnmiles (21 August 2006)

Jaysus!  That lad should shoot his dogs!

Few too many 'lol's to make that one believable.  Fancy telling us where that one was from?


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## severnmiles (21 August 2006)

Not clear, I agree. But you're talking about terriermen: it's a miracle they can write at all.
		
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Lol, that remark did make me laugh!  However you're insulting my OH at the same time    :smirk:  :grin:


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## severnmiles (21 August 2006)

Well, I'm sceptical as to who is who as I can go and pretend to be a sab on any anti website.  (Not that I'm sad enough to).  I'm as stubborn as a mule and unless I see it with my own eyes or hear it from a reliable source I refuse to believe it.

I'll always admit, there are those who shouldn't have terriers, but there are also those who shouldn't have kids, nobody can stop them though.


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## LACS (22 August 2006)

They're all taken from Moochers, the precursor of the site now run by Carreg. All the members who made these posts are members of his site. He was also moderator of the old Moochers site which allowed these comments to stand. So ask him...


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## severnmiles (22 August 2006)

I know full well which site they are from.  Doesn't make me want to believe the content of the posts though.  I've seen how young lads want to impress and brag.  The imagination can run wild....


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## LACS (22 August 2006)

Unfortunately they accompanied many of their descriptions with graphic photos of their exploits. But if you don't believe me ask the now silent Carreg.


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## CARREG (22 August 2006)

So Im responsible for every fcuking idiot who ever owned a terrier...lol

LACS
That makes you a grave robbing, granny bashing, firebombing, kiddy kicking, horse and hound abusing terrorist...............Carreg


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## LACS (22 August 2006)

Were you a moderator of the site where these posts were made?


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## LACS (22 August 2006)

"That makes you a grave robbing, granny bashing, firebombing, kiddy kicking, horse and hound abusing terrorist"

No it doesn't because I'm very happy to condemn without qualification all of these people you mention. 

You were a moderator on the site where these vile hunting posts were made. You allow these people to post currently on your own site. You have not, as far as I'm aware, criticised these people in any way at all.


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## CARREG (22 August 2006)

Silent...lol

you still havent answered my question about payment and to what you were alluding............Carreg


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## LACS (22 August 2006)

It was nothing sinister my dear Carreg. I just wondered what motivates a person to do what you've done for 30 years. That's a lot of dead foxes. A strange way to live a life.


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## allijudd (22 August 2006)

You have not, as far as I'm aware, criticised these people in any way at all.

I know of a number of threads on here in the past which the moderators have removed because of content, but I have never heard of a moderator criticising a poster for content. 
Also if you know what is on the site and are offended by it, you have a choice not to go on it. 
Some people think porn is evil/vile etc but it is not banned because if you dont like it, you dont buy it.

Anyway I have a question and answer for you LACS.
Q. Do you think the Nazis were right in their beliefs and so do you think this country would have been better under German rule?

Answer to your question, I am male (i'm alli's other half)


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## CARREG (22 August 2006)

"....You have not, as far as I'm aware, criticised these people in any way at all...."

See we can all be wrong sometimes.............Carreg


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## CARREG (22 August 2006)

Why........


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## Clodagh (22 August 2006)

My OH is also a terrierman. He has never baited a fox. I know I'm banging my head against a brick wall here, but most terriermen do their job quickly and efficiently as possible. Most hunt terriermen value their well trained dogs too much to shove them down a hole and leave them to be ripped to pieces.
OH NEVER enters more than one dog to a hole.
Of course some people are cruel. Like at any job and any walk of life.
MY OH can not only write, he can read AND drive a tractor in a straight line lol!!


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## severnmiles (22 August 2006)

"MY OH can not only write, he can read AND drive a tractor in a straight line lol!!"

LMAO  :smirk: :grin:


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## RunToEarth (22 August 2006)

"MY OH can not only write, he can read AND drive a tractor in a straight line lol!! "
Loveing it! :grin:

Erm...LACS, you might want to come up with some better insults, and I dont do teletubbies, they arnt on any more, now fimbles...they are my kinda guys!


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## mrdarcy (22 August 2006)

Clodagh

Again - to show us anti's can have balanced views - you are absolutely right in your post.  I'm sure the vast majority of terriermen love their dogs and do a professional job.  

Unfortunately, as you say, there will always be a small minority who cast the profession in a bad light.  It's this unwanted minority that anti's will seize on to use as an example of all terriermen.  

But equally pro's lump all anti's together, seeing us all as extremists, with a tendency towards violence and worse.  As with the minority of 'bad' terriermen there are 'bad' anti's.  Most of us hold our own views but behave in a reasonable manner.

The minorities on both sides are the ones we should all speak out against and try to disassociate ourselves from.


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## LACS (22 August 2006)

silly little girl, you might want to come up with some better insult than "nonce".


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## LACS (22 August 2006)

"My OH is also a terrierman. He has never baited a fox."

Terrierwork IS baiting. It's setting one animal onto another.


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## Clodagh (22 August 2006)

IMO baiting would be immobilising/injuring the animal so it can't get away and leaving it to fight it out.


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## Hercules (22 August 2006)

LACS, 

In accordance with your flawed reasoning, boxing, most forms of martial arts and wrestling are therefore considered baiting.

You must feel incredibly bitter that after 80 fruitless years of lies, terrier work has still not been banned.


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## LACS (22 August 2006)

Wrong again - many aspects of terrierwork have been banned. For example, you commit an offence if you use more than one dog or don't have permission. But given the nature of the activity (i.e. in secluded areas) and, more to the point, the unpleasant recidivist nature of the people who do this, it's always likely to carry on despite the legislation. Similarly, dog fighting and badger baiting (ALWAYS carried out by terriermen) still goes on - doesn't mean it was wrong to outlaw them.


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## allijudd (22 August 2006)

LACS, it would be nice to have your views on my question to you regarding WW2. My point will become clear shortly, and no I am not going to criticise your pont of view, yopu are intitled to what ever views you may have. But an answer would be good.


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## LACS (22 August 2006)

WW2? I think WW2 was a bad thing.


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## Hercules (22 August 2006)

LACS,

I am fully aware of the limitations currently placed on terrierwork, however terrierwork has NOT been banned.  

More sweeping generalisations.  

Dog fighting and badger baiting were always carried out by people who owned terriers, but not necessarily terriermen.  Due to the nature of the activity, that is obvious.

My next door neighbour is a 75 year old woman who owns two terriers.  Would you class her as a terrierman?

I suggest that you think before you type.  Your bitterness and ignorance is clearly clouding your reasoning.


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## allijudd (22 August 2006)

I agree WW2 was bad, and is what happens when a government decides to take away freedom from people (albeit on a HUGE scale). But my point is this...... hundreds of thousands of british men and women fought and died for their belief that we a free and our freedom must be defended. 58% of people polled believe hunting should continue..... but it was banned because of the minority of people (MP's generally) who dont understand the countryside wnated to ban it. If it was such an acceptable proposal why was the parliment act used to get the bill through? Even though Lords was created as a safeguard against laws which are either unjust or not in the country's interest.
My point is this: The views of the MINORITY should NEVER be put above the views of the MAJORITY. I think it is disrespectfull to all the people who died to protect our freedom, and if they could see what was happening in Britain today,i bet they would wonder wether the fight was worth it. I doubt it, but then respect is something this country is not well known for, especially when it concerns the majority on any subject.


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## LACS (22 August 2006)

Aspects of terrierwork have been banned. If you don't have the necessary permission, for example, it's banned. Due to the sort of people who become terriermen it's certain that illegal terrierwork is still being carried out. Carreg hides his forum from the public so that the members there can't openly incriminate themselves. Same goes for other hunting sites like huntinglife.

If a person uses his terriers to kill foxes he's a terrierman. Every single person convicted of badger-related offences during the last 20 years has been a terrierman. Same goes for dog-fighting. 

If your neighbour doesn't use her dogs to kill foxes, I think it's safe to say that she's not a "terrierman".


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## allijudd (22 August 2006)

LACS do you class flying a bird of prey as baiting? I mean deliberately setting an animal to seek out and kill another? That is your defination of baiting is it not?


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## Paul T (22 August 2006)

Wouldn't have thought that would be baiting. According to the online Encyclopaedia Britannica bait is: "to harass (as a chained animal) with dogs usually for sport b : to attack by biting and tearing."

Not only would terrierwork fit this description, but aspects of hunting (pre ban) would as well.


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## Clodagh (22 August 2006)

Wheres Endy gone? Turns up, opens a can of worms, vanishes. There never was a reliable anti...lol!


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## allijudd (22 August 2006)

And how doea a Bird of prey kill????
Oh by tearing and biting. How else can they kill anything? By looking at it?
By your definition allowing a bird of prey to hunt ( which is what it does naturally) its baiting. Are you suggesting that millenia of evolution of these birds is now wrong because the "superior intellect of the human race" says so. I dont. Check your arguments they are still very very flawed.


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## Hercules (22 August 2006)

I would be suprised if you could find any wild carnivore which does not attack by biting and tearing.

More ridiculous comments from the misguided.


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## Paul T (22 August 2006)

I didn't know humans played a part in setting wild carnivores on other animals in nature. 

More obtuse comments from the bumpkin brigade.


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## allijudd (22 August 2006)

So no one who keeps and flies BOP (ie a falconner) has ever set a wild carnivore on another? Good job you dont live in Dubai, disagreeing with the roay family could be a mistake. But then I suppose all lords and royalty through the ages from about the 12th centure are all totally wrong?????
I think a seive has more chance of holding water than your argument at the moment.


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## Paul T (22 August 2006)

The usual use of the word 'bait' implies confinement in some way (ie when a fox is confined in its blocked earth or cubs are confined within a covert during cubbing). Not sure many quarry species in faconry are confined but if you're happy to make the case for falconry=baiting I'm game.


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## mrdarcy (22 August 2006)

allij

re your earlier post... I think the stats on whether a majority support hunting are unreliable and the outcome of any survey very much depends on what question you ask.  

If you ask the question 'do you support hunting' a majority of UK public would say no (as previous surveys have proven), as in its not something they'd ever want to do themselves.

But if the question is 'do you support a hunting ban' the outcome seems to be a narrow majority say no, some because of civil liberties but most just because they believe there are more important uses of the law, police and parliament time.


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## LACS (22 August 2006)

allij, I respect your general point about men and women dying for freedom in WW2, but I'm afraid that if you live in a society part of the cost of that is that the society restricts your freedom on almost every level. (In fact only in a dictatorship can you find anything approaching unfettered freedom and that's only enjoyed by the dictator.) That's why there are restrictions on drink driving, or speeding. There's legislation prohibiting animal cruelty. I see the Hunting Act as an extension of that legislation. If you disagree you can campaign to have the Act removed: that's how democracy works.

This democracy doesn't operate on the basis of polls (and I could cite a number of polls which indicate an overwhelming majority of people opposed to hunting with hounds) but through Parliament.

I would have preferred the House of Lords to approve the Hunting Bill, but given that they rejected it three times the Speaker had every right to invoke the Parliament Act to see that the will of the only elected chamber was followed. I think it's a going a bit too far to see this as an afront to the freedom fought for by WW2 heroes. The Act has only been used five times, four times in recent years. On one occasion it was invoked to repeal Section 28 and bring equality to age of consent for gays - hardly the sacred territory of the Nazis; on another it was used to pass the War Crimes Act 1991.


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## Paul T (22 August 2006)

I assume Hercules was referring to nature where a carnivore hunts down its prey, it an attempt to challenge the Encyclopaedia Brittanica defintion of 'bait', which is why I responded in the way I did - I'm not sure the word has any meaning without human involvement.

Anyway, not too sure about your point. I thought falconry was the 'sporting art of flying trained birds of prey at quarry in its natural state and habitat.' If they're trained they can hardly be wild.


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## allijudd (22 August 2006)

You mention drink driving and speeding..... both carry serious risk to HUMAN life. I am well aware of the limitations placed on members of society, not saying that some are not reasonable, but some are unreasonable. I have a right to protect my crops and livestock, and I own a rifle but it doesn't mean I am a good shot. For your info I am a good shot but there are people who are not. Personally I think a gun in the hands of a poor shot is far more dangerous and cruel than any pack of hounds. Restrictions on society are acceptable to reduce harm or death to humans, but the welfare of an animal should not be put above that of a human.


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## mrdarcy (22 August 2006)

"But then I suppose all lords and royalty through the ages from about the 12th centure are all totally wrong?????"

They also executed wives, cousins, children, subjugated their subjects, stole, raped and pillaged - not good role models or people to base value judgments on at all


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## allijudd (22 August 2006)

I forgot to ask LACS, do you eat fish?


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## LACS (22 August 2006)

"Restrictions on society are acceptable to reduce harm or death to humans"

So outside these conditions you don't agree with restrictions? You don't agree with laws prohibiting the sale of watered-down beer? It's hardly likely to cause harm or death to humans. How about restrictions on Sunday opening hours?


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## allijudd (22 August 2006)

Maybe they did and maybe they didnt, but the figures from teh past made this country and the world the way it is today. Their actions have helped create some of the laws in force today, so their actions have, in some aspects, had a positive impact on society today.


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## LACS (22 August 2006)

I'd prefer not to discuss my sex life here.


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## allijudd (22 August 2006)

I dont drink alcohol so i couldnt care less about watered down beer, I would prefer market forces prevail with regards to opening hours. If the public want to shop on a Sunday then, if the shops want to, let them open.
What has eating got to do with your sex life???


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## mrdarcy (22 August 2006)

"Maybe they did and maybe they didnt, but the figures from teh past made this country and the world the way it is today. Their actions have helped create some of the laws in force today, so their actions have, in some aspects, had a positive impact on society today"

Sadly what our royalty and aristocracy have done in the past isn't in question.  Yes some of our history has a positive affect on the modern world but there's a much that has had a very negative affect.  Colonialism for one is the direct cause of a huge amount of suffering in the world today - from Africa to the Middle East.  The Great in Great Britain is historically very tainted...


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## LACS (22 August 2006)

How about selling bottled water which advertises itself as coming from a spa whereas it's just tap water?


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## RunToEarth (22 August 2006)

LACS, FYI, silly little girl is not an insult


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## allijudd (22 August 2006)

I dont buy bottled water, tap is fine for me.


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## Paul T (22 August 2006)

Or Melton Mowbray pies that don't come from Leicestershire?


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## allijudd (22 August 2006)

Law doesnt stop foreign meat being sold as uk provided it is processed in the UK. Seems the law isn't all that absolute!


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## LACS (22 August 2006)

So you think people should be allowed to sell "spa water" which is in fact just out of the tap? There should be no restriction at all on this?


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## allijudd (22 August 2006)

I thought that was what Coca Cola were doing in london last year??


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## allijudd (22 August 2006)

Besides LACS you are evading the question, do you eat fish?


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## Vyda (22 August 2006)

Aspects of terrierwork have been banned. If you don't have the necessary permission, for example, it's banned. 


Even pre ban if you didn't have permission it was illegal.


Due to the sort of people who become terriermen it's certain that illegal terrierwork is still being carried out. Carreg hides his forum from the public so that the members there can't openly incriminate themselves. Same goes for other hunting sites like huntinglife.


With the exception of Hunting life these forums have required that you become a member and log in to view the forum pre ban so it's hardly anything to do with incriminating ourselves, please don't think we are naive enough to think that there aren't members who are antis on our forums.


If a person uses his terriers to kill foxes he's a terrierman. Every single person convicted of badger-related offences during the last 20 years has been a terrierman. Same goes for dog-fighting. 

I fail to see your point even if that information is correct, not all terriermen or women are dog fighters and the majority work their terriers within the law, however flawed it maybe.


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