# Help, Loan gone bad!!!!



## Kate_25 (10 October 2010)

Hi,

Any advice appreciated.  I gave one of my miniature yearlings to a local petting zoo ten years ago on the bases that if they no longer want him they will return him to me.  However I don't have anything in writing and now they want to sell him!!!  I will buy him off them if it comes to it, they have also said that I can have him back if I give them another stallion or buy him from them.  Where do I stand, it just seems very wrong, they have bred countless foals from him and now refuse to give him back!!! Does the length of time passing make a difference?  I thought they'd be ok as they did have one of my mares for awhile and gave her back no problem.  Please help! 

And yes I know I'm been very stupid for not having anything in writing.


----------



## 3DE (10 October 2010)

Who's name is the passport in? It isn't proof of ownership but if it is in your name and there is no other documentation then they have no proof they 'own' him. Even with their name on the passport it isn't proof of ownership but if it still has yours on they don't have a leg to stand on. Also don't you need a license to breed??? If they don't have one you could threaten to report them?


----------



## BuBbleMooJim (10 October 2010)

They have a flipping nerve, whether or not they have a loan agreement, there is a verbal contract with you, and I would point out to them that if they have bred from him you have a claim to stud fee's, and by all means mention the licence issue as far as breeding is concerned, if they have have people pay to visit, I am sure adverse publicity being mentioned may well put them off being awkward


----------



## Kate_25 (12 October 2010)

OMG,  it's just going from bad to worse now,  they've had him chipped a second time as the vet says that they couldn't find a chip and passported in their name.  They're now claiming that I've lost the right to ownership as it has been over seven years, even though I have kept an eye on him since he's been there. I've told them that my solicitors will be in touch and they said good luck proving I'm the owner!!!!  The fact the vet couldn't find the chip doesn't help and makes me wonder if it is even the same horse or if they have swapped him as the vet has him down as a Shetland when he is in fact a Falabella and they're selling his foals as Falabella crosses so something is amiss there.  I don't think that they legally need a license to breed do they?  What a nightmare!!!


----------



## pixi (12 October 2010)

maybee they didnt get a vet to scan him n theyve lied if its been chipped the scanner would find it i think there pulling a fast one on you.if you have a original  passport n vet records of chipping id ,its possible they have already sold yours n the re chipped pony is another of simular looks.theve replaced yours with .i would give them 7 days notice in writeing that you intend collecting your pony.take the passport with the chip details with you,and if they dont give him back report him as a theft ring the police n start takeing action


----------



## outandabout (12 October 2010)

Don't take any rash action - give your solicitor a call or if you're a member call the BHS legal helpline.  Have you any proof that he is yours?  Even if another passport has been issued, if yours predates it this may be sufficient proof.  Presumably the earlier microchip is in your name?  Unless they physically removed it from him that is going to help you prove that he is yours. They are currently in a strong position as they are in possession of him, but take some proper legal advice as soon as possible. Good luck!


----------



## 3DE (13 October 2010)

fadedv said:



			Presumably the earlier microchip is in your name?  Unless they physically removed it from him that is going to help you prove that he is yours.
		
Click to expand...

That could actually go in your favour though. If you have the original passport and chip documentation then the only reason for them removing it would be to cover up that they don't own the horse. If the horse was sold it would simply be a case of changing the ownership on the documentation you have - which hasn't been done! By removing the chip they are actually showing deception...


----------



## the watcher (13 October 2010)

Kate_25 said:



			Hi,

Any advice appreciated.  I gave one of my miniature yearlings to a local petting zoo ten years ago on the bases that if they no longer want him they will return him to me.  

Click to expand...

The first problem is that you refer to 'giving' the pony to them. If you did give it as a gift with just the proviso that if they no longer have a use for it they return it, then really you have given up any rights with that transfer.

If, however, it was a loan then you need to find a) the original paperwork, even if it is a copy from the breed society and b) people who were present at the time who can confirm that is was an open ended loan situation who would be willing to give evidence on your behalf.

The fact that they returned an earlier pony may not be much of a precedent if the circumstances were different (ie, that one just didn't work out)


----------



## Kate_25 (17 October 2010)

Hi everyone,

Thank you for all your advise, I've got my baby back, with the help of my old vet who had record's of him being chipped and being my horse.  His old chip is still registered to me, the poor boy does now have two chips though, the vet that did it has apologized profusely, as he wasn't aware there was an old chip. I gave them seven days to hand him back  or I'd be taking action and going to the papers.  I reminded them that I was only 16yrs old at the time and that they did agree to return him, and that I don't know how they can say they'll be out of pocket if they give him back with all the foals they've had!!!

Thanks again, at least we have a happy ending.


----------



## Snoozinsusan (17 October 2010)

Pleased to hear it worked out in the end!


----------



## JaneyP (17 October 2010)

Glad you got your boy back xx


----------



## KarynK (17 October 2010)

Glad to hear of the happy ending but PLEASE

Can anyone considering loaning a horse learn lessons from this ALWAYS have a signed agreement setting out the terms of the loan in black a white, there are templates on the net  the BHS have a very comprehensive one but it covers virtually everything!  Do this even if you are loaning to friends and family.

NB possession of a passport is NOT proof of ownership and the passport should by law accompany the horse!  

If you do loan a horse or pony keep in contact with the people loaning the animal and visit now and again to make sure everything is OK.  While horse theft has fallen significantly reports of missing/stolen/sold on whilst on loan are on the increase and in the current climate this can only get worse so make sure you get it right.


----------



## PucciNPoni (17 October 2010)

Kate_25 said:



			Hi everyone,

Thank you for all your advise, I've got my baby back, with the help of my old vet who had record's of him being chipped and being my horse.  His old chip is still registered to me, the poor boy does now have two chips though, the vet that did it has apologized profusely, as he wasn't aware there was an old chip. I gave them seven days to hand him back  or I'd be taking action and going to the papers.  I reminded them that I was only 16yrs old at the time and that they did agree to return him, and that I don't know how they can say they'll be out of pocket if they give him back with all the foals they've had!!!

Thanks again, at least we have a happy ending.
		
Click to expand...

Well done for getting your pony back.  Just wanted to say; don't worry too much about him having two chips -- at least from a physical aspect.  Though at some point it might prove confusing for paperwork etc, and I suspect that the vet was probably more upset that he'd not checked?  However, it's not a big deal to have two chips installed - my old dog that I brought over from the US with me had a chip that wasn't recognised here on the UK scanners.  So we put in a second chip!  She's only 3kg....


----------



## Tinseltoes (18 October 2010)

Glad you have your pony back.


----------



## Seahorse (18 October 2010)

KarynK said:



			Glad to hear of the happy ending but PLEASE

Can anyone considering loaning a horse learn lessons from this ALWAYS have a signed agreement setting out the terms of the loan in black a white, there are templates on the net  the BHS have a very comprehensive one but it covers virtually everything!  Do this even if you are loaning to friends and family.

NB possession of a passport is NOT proof of ownership and the passport should by law accompany the horse!  

If you do loan a horse or pony keep in contact with the people loaning the animal and visit now and again to make sure everything is OK.  While horse theft has fallen significantly reports of missing/stolen/sold on whilst on loan are on the increase and in the current climate this can only get worse so make sure you get it right.
		
Click to expand...



I don't know if all breed society's do this but as well as a passport I have a certificate of ownership (my horse is part bred arab) he is out on loan at the moment and they have his passport but the owners certificate is with me


----------



## miss_bird (21 October 2010)

Glad to heat a god outcome and you have your baby back


----------



## ThoroughbredStar (21 October 2010)

AHHHHHHH!! Thank god! Some people, honestly!!


----------



## KarynK (21 October 2010)

Seahorse said:



			I don't know if all breed society's do this but as well as a passport I have a certificate of ownership (my horse is part bred arab) he is out on loan at the moment and they have his passport but the owners certificate is with me 

Click to expand...

All PIO's should maintain the record of ownership and should not change any details on a passport without the signature of the owner.  But then we already know that that means not a lot!!!!


----------



## BuBbleMooJim (22 October 2010)

There are some unscrupulous people in the world, threats of going public usually work, especially with a place such as that, glad you have had a happy outcome, due warning for others I think


----------

