# disaster horse purchase.. Advice please



## charlie76 (23 November 2016)

Advice please for a friend. A friend of mine has just purchased a pony from a breeder (who breeds to sell so would also be a dealer I assume?) The pony arrived a week ago, unbacked and straight from the field so will give the seller the benefit of the doubt that they thought the pony was OK. We wormed her and kept her in for a few days as she had been in a big herd, she did, however, get turned out in a small,all weather turn out during the day. The owner had not seen her move other than walk. Two days ago we turned the pony out and it walked to the paddock almost as if it was drunk. When it trotted off it was obviously lame on both hind legs, one being worse than the other. We contacted the seller who said we had obviously caused a problem which we certainly hadn't! We got the vet who confirmed that the pony was bilaterally lame behind, she agreed that if it had been one leg then of course it could have happened since delivery but not both hind legs. She watched her walk and trot up and also noted a peculiar drunk action. She also walked down hill strangely and looked very uncoordinated on the lunge. The vet did some wobbler tests and the pony showed obvious signs of a neurological problem. She fell on me in the tail pulling test and walked all over her own feet when turning a tight circle, she also struggled to walk down hill with her head up. Classic neuro signs. Our vet advised that the pony has a long standing issue that hadn't just come on. We told the seller this but she won't have any of it and has almost accused my friend of abusing the pony! Vet said that the breeder should take the pony back and fully refund. Seller is not willing to. Friend didnt have the pony vetted (silly I know!) but even without the vetting the pony is not fit for the purpose my friend stated she wanted her for... A riding pony. Can anyone help as to how to move forward?


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## TheMule (23 November 2016)

I would question the vet's opinion- neurological symptoms do very often come on very suddenly when related to trauma. I'd want the pony on a high dose of anti-inflammatories and probably a course of steroids too in case of trauma.
Otherwise, did she go and view the pony? If not and not vetted then I don't think there'd be much comeback. How did the pony get to it's new home? Surely neurological symptoms would have shown when travelling?


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## Goldenstar (23 November 2016)

I think the same as the mule .


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## Tiddlypom (23 November 2016)

As above ^^^.

Also, didn't you or the new owner notice anything strange when the pony was turned out in the small all weather turn out area when it first arrived?


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## charlie76 (23 November 2016)

When it was turned loose in the turn out it just mooched about so nothing really to see to be honest. Yes she did go and view the pony but it was just out in the paddock. The pony has had no trauma since its been at its new yard so whatever happened to make it like this definitely hasn't happened since it arrived unless something happened in the trailer when it was delivered. There was also over a week's gap between viewing and delivery.


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## SpringArising (23 November 2016)

My immediate reaction was it's an adverse reaction to the wormer. It's not common but it does happen.


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## charlie76 (23 November 2016)

The owners delivered it so no idea if something happened in transit. Wormer may explain the wobbling but not the bilateral lameness.


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## Goldenstar (23 November 2016)

How can you know the horse has not done something in the stable


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## ycbm (23 November 2016)

Unbroken pony bought from the field, unvetted, now not fit for purpose as a ridden pony? Your friend doesn't have a leg to stand on unless she can produce solid evidence of a congenital problem.

This sort of complaint is, imo, completely unreasonable and puts me off ever selling a horse again.


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## minesadouble (23 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			Unbroken pony bought from the field, unvetted, now not fit for purpose as a ridden pony? Your friend doesn't have a leg to stand on unless she can produce solid evidence of a congenital problem.

This sort of complaint is, imo, completely unreasonable and puts me off ever selling a horse again.
		
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This I'm afraid. The very least she could have done was watched it trot up before she handed the money over.


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## Pearlsasinger (23 November 2016)

Speak to Trading Standards, if the breeder sells more than 3 (?) horses per year, they are considered to be dealing. It will be incumbent upon the breeder to prove that the pony is fit for purpose not the vendor to prove that it isn't.


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## Meowy Catkin (23 November 2016)

The TB mare I used to have had a son that was PTS shortly after backing due to wobblers. The owner was very, very good at spotting lameness/issues so there is no way that he would have been backed or worked if he was showing symptoms then. He did deteriorate quickly and I was told that there wasn't a trauma/accident. I was led to believe that it isn't unheard of for horses to have this come on quickly at that age (three/four).

So due to knowing this, I think it is theoretically possible that the horse was sound when with the seller. The lameness could be related to the neurological deterioration.


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## ycbm (23 November 2016)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Speak to Trading Standards, if the breeder sells more than 3 (?) horses per year, they are considered to be dealing. It will be incumbent upon the breeder to prove that the pony is fit for purpose not the vendor to prove that it isn't.
		
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This is isn't right, though, is it? The pony had to be fit for purpose  on the day it was sold . The seller surely has to prove that it wasn't, because it's impossible to 'prove' that it was when the buyer did not have a vetting and therefore bought 'sold as seen'?  Unless the pony has obvious skeletal restriction of the spinal cord of definite age, this is going to be incredibly difficult.  The pony wasn't watched for every minute after arrival and we all know how easily horses damage themselves. For a start, it needs an EHV test, which won't be cheap.


I've had a horse with congenital wobblers (born with a spinal cord restriction) who showed no obvious signs until he was ten. On the day I bought him he would pass a five star vetting. It 'went' suddenly one day.  It would never have occurred to me to sue the man who sold him to me. He didn't know.


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## Clodagh (23 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			This is isn't right, though, is it? The pony had to be fit for purpose  on the day it was sold . The seller surely has to prove that it wasn't, because it's impossible to 'prove' that it was when the buyer did not have a vetting?  Unless the pony has obvious skeletal restriction of the spinal cord of definite age, this is going to be incredibly difficult.  The pony wasn't watched for every minute after arrival and we all know how easily horses damage themselves. For a start, it needs an EHV test, which won't be cheap.
		
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This. Don't people ever just admit they are wrong any more? Is everything always someone elses fault?


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## Sparemare (23 November 2016)

Without having had a pre purchase vetting it's hard to say.  Was the pony expensive?  I'd be inclined to return it to the dealer now and argue the toss after that.


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## DressageCob (23 November 2016)

If a dealer and you are within 30 days of purchase you may have the right to reject the horse. Read the Consumer Rights Act 2015 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/22/enacted

I recommend seeking legal advice.


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## BSL (23 November 2016)

If it was me, i'd forget about any money and sort the poor pony out, one way or t'other.


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## ycbm (23 November 2016)

helenalbert said:



			If a dealer and you are within 30 days of purchase you may have the right to reject the horse. Read the Consumer Rights Act 2015 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/22/enacted

I recommend seeking legal advice.
		
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That legislation is fine for a fridge but not for a pony which could have caught EHV in the new home or slipped in a field and bruised its spinal cord.


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## w1bbler (23 November 2016)

Symptoms vaguely fit luping ill, transmitted by ticks which could easily have been transmitted since purchase?. http://www.eqwest.co.uk/menu_page.php?id=106


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## Red-1 (23 November 2016)

I am no legal expert, but do have some experience of Wobblers. I know someone who had a beautiful horse, had it some months, I saw her at a dressage test, and it warmed up beautifully.... When it went into the arena I was surprised, as the quality of trot was just not the same. The first half of the test I put that down to nerves. The last part of the test I was with a friend, and I said that I thought the horse has a problem, but it was not obvious what exactly the problem was. 

The horse did well enough in the test, and was actually first in for the next class, so more or less straight in. During the second test the horse failed neurologically, and the rider pulled up and dismounted straight away. The horse was done, very bad wobblers. It came on that quickly, got worse and a couple of days after was sadly PTS.

My own horse Jay also suddenly became a wobbler. As Goldenstar said, I had him straight to Vet hospital, and his spine actually did not X ray too badly. He had a course of steroids, and is in remission. I guess you can never say a wobbler is "cured." 

So, I dispute that neurological symptoms can come on so quickly. 

I guess a new home is a time when accidents do happen, who knows if the horse walked into his wall at night, tripped in the turnout or whatever. With the above two horses we could not pin down a "reason." 

Actually I know of a third too, managing work well, 4 years old, until one day he was reluctant to turn round. In fact he had not that long since (less than 12 months) passed a full 5 stage vetting, and he was X rayed to be a wobbler due to narrowing of channel in the spine. The symptoms did come on very quickly, and in fact he did not show all of the signs, but simply could not turn, or happily lift and lower his head. 

I do agree that the horse has to be fit for purpose at the point of sale. I don't think they come with a lifetime guarantee. As I said though, I am not a lawyer, and do not know how much protection 30 days gives you, that is a new one on me.


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## rowan666 (23 November 2016)

If the poor thing has gone from living out in a herd to being locked in a stable alone for days in a strange place I would think it likely she got stressed out and did herself a mischeif and maybe a bit stiff to boot? (Apologies if I've misread) Can't she be turned away for a week or two then reassesed by vet?


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## SusieT (23 November 2016)

buyer didn't vet- more foold them.
it's entirely possible the pony has picked something up/had an accident  to cause these symptoms
your friend is I'm afraid the one who has to foot the bill for any further care and keep the pony


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## Pearlsasinger (23 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			That legislation is fine for a fridge but not for a pony which could have caught EHV in the new home or slipped in a field and bruised its spinal cord.
		
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But, as I am sure you know ycbm, in law a horse is treated exactly the same as a fridge, or a car. 
I quite agree that there could be all sorts of reasons for the pony's lameness but the opinion of a qualified vet who has examined the pony is likely to be given more weight in a court of law (should it come to that) than the opinions of a bunch of people on a forum who have never set eyes upon the animal.
OP asked what he friend, who believes the pony was mis-sold should do. Trading Standards is the place to go in those circumstances.
What I, personally, would do would probably be something different but then, I have never bought a horse that I haven't had trotted up.


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## ycbm (23 November 2016)

But, as I am sure you know ycbm, in law a horse is treated exactly the same as a fridge, or a car.
		
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Do you mean in the respect that you cannot return a car within thirty days because it got a puncture or a fridge because you dropped it and broke the compressor? Exactly. Anything could have happened to this pony since it arrived in its new home. Unless the new owner can prove congenital wobblers made it unfit for purchase on the day it was bought, imo she's on a hiding to nothing.

And that's before even considering whether it is in any way reasonable to claim that a pony is not fit to be broken and ridden when you bought it unbroken from the field without bothering to have it vetted.


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## Mongoose11 (23 November 2016)

Buyer beware with no vetting! To buy without watching it move or asking it to turn is just senseless. No comeback here at all.


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## LinzyD (23 November 2016)

It's interesting, and it all depends on what the diagnosis is.  If the pony is insured (most policies exclude the first couple of weeks, so it may not be covered even if a policy has been taken out) get it to a veterinary hospital for a full investigation and diagnosis, and even if it is not insured then IMO a proper diagnosis is required.  Depending on the diagnosis it should be possible to get a specialist opinion on the likelihood of the condition pre-existing prior to sale.  If the balance of probability is that the condition existed prior to the sale, regardless of whether or not there was a pre-purchase vetting, regardless of whether the vendor knew or not, and if the vendor is selling as part of a business activity (e.g. they sell several animals a year) or ancilliary to a business activity (e.g. they sell the odd horse occasionally, but they are a trainer/yard owner/producer/etc), then the pony can be returned for a full refund under the terms of the Sale of Goods Act.  If the balance of probability is that the condition existed prior to sale and the sale was from a private vendor not acting in the course of business then the pony can still be returned, but it is more difficult to enforce this.  The way to do so is to claim misrepresentation, i.e. that the pony was sold to be developed as a ridden pony and if the condition prevents this ever happening then you claim either fraudulent misrepresentation if the vendor must have known, or negligent misrepresentation if the vendor did not know.  Not knowing of the condition is not in itself any defence.  

There are many, many conditions that can exist for a good while without any outward signs, and that would not show up on a pre-purchase vetting, and then suddenly manifest symptoms out of the blue.  I had a pony who in one week qualified for HOYS in showing and scored a clutch of perfect 10s at BD and qualified for the Regionals, and then suddenly a week later, went all wobbly behind the way that the OP describes, unstable, unable to walk in a straight line.  After extensive investigations it turned out that he had advanced stages of cancer and the hospital confirmed that the condition would have taken a couple of years to get to this point (as it happens, possibly pre-dating my purchase of him, but that was a non issue as I'd had him for a couple of very successful years).  

So, what I am saying, is that a proper diagnosis is required first and foremost, and it's not a foregone conclusion that the buyer has no redress simply because they did not have a vetting.  Diagnosis... then legal advice from an equestrian specialist depending on what the diagnosis is... then decide on the course of action, as it's pointless to speculate until the diagnosis is known.  In the meantime, write to the vendor to explain that this is what is being done.  

If the pony is uninsured and the buyer is not willing to pay for a diagnosis, then there's not a lot to be done in terms of returning the pony.


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## Paint Me Proud (23 November 2016)

Not sure what to add in terms of what the OP should do but just wanted to add my experience of something slightly similar.

I sold a horse a few years back who was, as far as I was concerned, fit and healthy at time of sale. A year later the new owner lets me know that the horse has had to be put to sleep due to extremely severe kissing spine. 
The horse showed no signs of this condition whilst under my ownership so either the condition started and developed rapidly after I sold it or it did have the condition while I owned it but not severe enough to display any symptoms or raise any concerns.

If I was in the position that the new owner was I may well have assumed that the previous owner knew about the condition, decided not to disclose and was in fact the reason for sale. But in this instance I DID NOT know about the condition if, that is, it pre-existed while I owned the horse.


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## Equi (23 November 2016)

Im sorry but someone who buys an unbacked horse from a field after only seeing it in walk....well its buyer beware here. Buyers have to make sure they are buying an animal for their needs - sellers can only do so much.


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## LinzyD (23 November 2016)

OP, I've just re-read your post.  If a vet has already confirmed that it is pre-existing neuro condition, then legally the vendor does not have a leg to stand on.  Caveat Emptor does NOT apply here.  Whether or not the vendor knew, the pony may be returned for a full refund.  Your friend needs a letter from the vet confirming diagnosis and that in his/her professional opinion the condition pre-existed the sale, then a copy of this with a letter from an equestrian solicitor to state intention to return the pony.  And go from there.


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## charlie76 (23 November 2016)

Can I just stress that the pony has 100% not picked up EVH in the new yard and to suggest such a thing is ludicrous, there has never been a case in the yard and the pony was in isolation for the first week which is common practice in most yards hence why it was in and turned out in the day in the all weather turn out, she has always had company when in so pleasse don't assume it's been locked in 24/7 in solitary confinement! For the pony to have hurt itself in the stable to this extent she would have had some sort of mark on her I would think, there is nothing. Nor is there any mark on the wall or any signs of a disturbance in the stable. As far as I know, the seller got the pony to run about in the paddock with its field friends to show it trotting as the pony doesn't trot up in hand and has never been lunged. When we turned her out she trotted off in high spirits and for a few steps looked OK (adrenaline?) but as she slowed down you could then the issue, she didn't slip or buck or do anything untoward when we turned her out to cause A bilateral lameness. Anyway, I will pass on your thoughts and she can decide how to proceed. Thanks! Oh and for the record, this is why I never sell horses too! Too much of a minefield!


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## be positive (23 November 2016)

I recently found an article that gives a good overview of the legal side of buying and selling, this paragraph states clearly that there is no comeback in this case as the pony was not "examined" properly before or, from the sounds of things,  even immediately after purchase.

  If a physical problem manifests itself then you do not have any
comeback against the seller if that would have been revealed by
an examination of the horse at the time of sale. If you have had
the horse vetted and a defect later comes to light that should
have been revealed, then you need to take this matter up with the
vet, not the seller. However, you do need to realise that vets can
only assess the horse they see on the day and cannot anticipate
problems that may occur in future. Also, you are only covered by
the level of vetting that you have agreed, so vetting covering for
example, eyes and heart, will not help you if the horse displays
arthritic tendencies.


The full article which is well written and helpful to both sides in any purchase.

http://www.bowcockpursaill.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/BP_Buying__Selling_Horses.pdf


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## charlie76 (23 November 2016)

LinzyD said:



			OP, I've just re-read your post.  If a vet has already confirmed that it is pre-existing neuro condition, then legally the vendor does not have a leg to stand on.  Caveat Emptor does NOT apply here.  Whether or not the vendor knew, the pony may be returned for a full refund.  Your friend needs a letter from the vet confirming diagnosis and that in his/her professional opinion the condition pre-existed the sale, then a copy of this with a letter from an equestrian solicitor to state intention to return the pony.  And go from there.
		
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That's what our vet said. Owner has also said to the vendor to send her vet to see her and get their unbiased opinion to give a fair assessment or /and get a totally independent vet to look.


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## Equi (23 November 2016)

LinzyD said:



			OP, I've just re-read your post.  If a vet has already confirmed that it is pre-existing neuro condition, then legally the vendor does not have a leg to stand on.  Caveat Emptor does NOT apply here.  Whether or not the vendor knew, the pony may be returned for a full refund.  Your friend needs a letter from the vet confirming diagnosis and that in his/her professional opinion the condition pre-existed the sale, then a copy of this with a letter from an equestrian solicitor to state intention to return the pony.  And go from there.
		
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Only if the vendor KNEW of it though surely?  Why would anyone suspect their young pony that was living out and seemed fine to them had any sort of random neuro thing? Esp if its only come on suddenly with stress.


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## Equi (23 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			Can I just stress that the pony has 100% not picked up EVH in the new yard and to suggest such a thing is ludicrous, there has never been a case in the yard and the pony was in isolation for the first week which is common practice in most yards hence why it was in and turned out in the day in the all weather turn out, she has always had company when in so pleasse don't assume it's been locked in 24/7 in solitary confinement! For the pony to have hurt itself in the stable to this extent she would have had some sort of mark on her I would think, there is nothing. Nor is there any mark on the wall or any signs of a disturbance in the stable. As far as I know, the seller got the pony to run about in the paddock with its field friends to show it trotting as the pony doesn't trot up in hand and has never been lunged. When we turned her out she trotted off in high spirits and for a few steps looked OK (adrenaline?) but as she slowed down you could then the issue, she didn't slip or buck or do anything untoward when we turned her out to cause A bilateral lameness. Anyway, I will pass on your thoughts and she can decide how to proceed. Thanks! Oh and for the record, this is why I never sell horses too! Too much of a minefield!
		
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So its been in isolation but had company all the time....which is it? Not all horses calm down even with horses for company, esp those who have only just been brought in from a field.  

Also, its never been lunged but lunged for the vet?


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## LinzyD (23 November 2016)

equi said:



			Im sorry but someone who buys an unbacked horse from a field after only seeing it in walk....well its buyer beware here. Buyers have to make sure they are buying an animal for their needs - sellers can only do so much.
		
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I'm afraid that in law that's not true.  Let's go back to the fridge example.  I buy a fridge, don't ask for it to be plugged in to prove it works in the showroom, get it home and it doesn't work.   If I'd dropped it and broken it that would be my fault, but it turns out that it has a manufacturing fault so the fridge company has to take it back and give me a refund.   It is exactly the same with a pony.  The reason everyone thinks it's a case of buyer beware is that a) it used to be prior to the Sale of Goods Act  b) we are dealing with live animals and therefore often we do whatever seems best for the animal regardless of what we could do in law if we wanted to, and c) it is incredibly difficult to prove things where animals are concerned.  

Legally, I can telephone a breeder, say I want a horse to do job xyz, buy unseen over the phone on the breeder's recommendation, take delivery, and if I can demonstrate that the horse had a pre-existing condition that prevents it ever being able to do job xyz I can return it for a full refund.  Alarming but true.  Of course, no-one in their right mind would do things this way, and we all have our own opinion on the sanity of buying from the field, unvetted, etc.


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## blitznbobs (23 November 2016)

It's all very shakey in legal grounds. What did the sales contract say exactly? A horse can be sold as a pet , a companion , for meat, if the use of the horse is not within 'the four corners of the contract' it's one word against the other. If it says 'sold as seen' even if a dealer there is no comeback ... Also courts very rarely reward 'stupid' which I think this transaction was...


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## LinzyD (23 November 2016)

equi said:



			Only if the vendor KNEW of it though surely?  Why would anyone suspect their young pony that was living out and seemed fine to them had any sort of random neuro thing? Esp if its only come on suddenly with stress.
		
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No.  I know it seems unthinkable, but not knowing is no defence.  It either is fit for purpose or it is not, and if it is not the law doesn't care whether the vendor knew or not.  I know, I know....  I'm not saying I agree or disagree, simply that this is how it is.


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## blitznbobs (23 November 2016)

LinzyD said:



			No.  I know it seems unthinkable, but not knowing is no defence.  It either is fit for purpose or it is not, and if it is not the law doesn't care whether the vendor knew or not.  I know, I know....  I'm not saying I agree or disagree, simply that this is how it is.
		
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That actually depends on whether the vendor should have knowledge and is an 'expert' ... It's not as straight forward as this states... A lay person would not be expected to know what a vet knew ... It needs to be reasonable for the person to know... [glasgow corps et al]


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## LinzyD (23 November 2016)

blitznbobs said:



			It's all very shakey in legal grounds. What did the sales contract say exactly? A horse can be sold as a pet , a companion , for meat, if the use of the horse is not within 'the four corners of the contract' it's one word against the other. If it says 'sold as seen' even if a dealer there is no comeback ... Also courts very rarely reward 'stupid' which I think this transaction was...
		
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Exactly!  So, looking now from the vendor's legal stance, if I were the vendor unless there was a paper-trail showing that the pony had been sold to become a ridden pony, or had been advertised as a potential ridden pony, I would say that the pony had been sold as a non-ridden field companion.  And then it comes down to who is believed.


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## LinzyD (23 November 2016)

blitznbobs said:



			That actually depends on whether the vendor should have knowledge and is an 'expert' ... It's not as straight forward as this states... A lay person would not be expected to know what a vet knew ... It needs to be reasonable for the person to know... [glasgow corps et al]
		
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Ooh, that's useful to know.  Thank you.


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## charlie76 (23 November 2016)

It was sold as a potential riding pony. Pony was kept in a stable away from others but can see others across the barn but no contact. I lunged it for the vet, we have a small pen to lunge in so it had no choice but to go in a circle!


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## charlie76 (23 November 2016)

I can also 100% confirm that this pony has shown no sign of being distressed at being in, it just eats hay!


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## ycbm (23 November 2016)

If a vet has already confirmed that it is pre-existing neuro condition, then legally the vendor does not have a leg to stand on.
		
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But it's quite possible that the pony had a pre-existing propensity to a neuro condition, like congenital wobblers (C3/4 spinal cord impingement) which was presenting no symptoms at the time of sale and may never have done in the future. My own horse was ten before what he was born with became obvious in the middle of a schooling session. I was told that there are many high class dressage horses which have the condition. I can't see how the vet can say that the horse definitively had neurological symptoms before it was bought. The purchaser is going to have to prove what is actually wrong with the pony before they can demand a refund, imo.


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## honetpot (23 November 2016)

I have a friend who bought a three year old Welsh B to show, at the time she paid a fair amount of money direct from the breeder. When it came to backing him, it became obvious there was something wrong and he was diagnosed with wobblers. She never once thought he had been mis sold, just hard luck.
  I buy youngsters and to be honest sometimes I do not even ask them to trot in a straight line, but I do not pay a fortune for them. I would imagine unless this pony has all the scans and investigations its going to be extremely hard to prove if it was pre existing, and if they did not even do basic checks, that makes it even harder.
  You can buy a broken well bred pony with papers for less than £1000 at the moment, I think I would cut my losses.


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## ycbm (23 November 2016)

Transmission occurs when infected and uninfected horses come in either direct (nose to nose contact) or indirect (through buckets, clothing, blankets that are contaminated) contact with nasal discharges of infected horses.  The virus can travel via aerosol (in the air) for short distances.    ......   Also, following infection, horses may become latent carriers of EHV;  virus may be reactivated after stress ...
		
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It was 'ludicrous' to suggest it could possibly have got, or already have and reactivated by the stress of moving,  EHV. Really?


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## ycbm (23 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			It was sold as a potential riding pony.
		
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Definition of 'potential' :

latent qualities or abilities that *may* be developed and lead to future success or usefulness.


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## Equi (24 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			It was sold as a potential riding pony. Pony was kept in a stable away from others but can see others across the barn but no contact. I lunged it for the vet, we have a small pen to lunge in so it had no choice but to go in a circle!
		
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The operative word here being "potential" 

I feel for the buyer, i do. But when dealing with live animals, its never that straight forward. 

What does the buyer hope to achieve in this? Sending the pony back for a full refund? Doesn't seem likely, and what would happen to the pony? Getting a new one in exchange won't work - they won't have any trust in the seller now im sure. If the seller won't take the pony back, they are not likely to refund in full (and buyer will have wasted money on vets and livery etc anyway) Can't sell it on as anything but an afflicted companion so only really suitable as free which i don't agree with - pts would be one outcome but money lost all around.

What does buyer want as an outcome..


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## piglet2001 (24 November 2016)

I am not saying your pony has EHV at all but having worked with world renowned experts on EHV please do not discount it!  It has a 30 day period before a horse can show symptoms and they can carry it for years dormantly. It commonly comes during s period of high stress for the horse. Most horses will have been exposed to the Ehv virus by the time they are 6 months old. The test is relatively inexpensive.


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## popsdosh (24 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			Do you mean in the respect that you cannot return a car within thirty days because it got a puncture or a fridge because you dropped it and broke the compressor? Exactly. Anything could have happened to this pony since it arrived in its new home. Unless the new owner can prove congenital wobblers made it unfit for purchase on the day it was bought, imo she's on a hiding to nothing.

And that's before even considering whether it is in any way reasonable to claim that a pony is not fit to be broken and ridden when you bought it unbroken from the field without bothering to have it vetted.
		
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Under the new consumer regulations you do not need any reason to ask for a refund(within 30 days) indeed car dealers and horse dealers for what its worth are really looking forward to this however they are allowed to deduct for wear and tear and damage caused. however being a breeder does not make you a dealer and as far as I know the numbers have nothing to do with it.
However the stress of moving homes is in my experience the time most wobblers become obvious along with backing


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## southerncomfort (24 November 2016)

equi said:



			Im sorry but someone who buys an unbacked horse from a field after only seeing it in walk....well its buyer beware here. Buyers have to make sure they are buying an animal for their needs - sellers can only do so much.
		
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I have to agree.  I've only ever bought one youngster and although I didn't have him vetted, I did see him trotted up and had a good feel of his legs etc.  Surely you want to see how a youngster moves and check it has clean legs before you commit to buying?


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## SpringArising (24 November 2016)

The pony was obviously fine when seen in the lunge pen and when it was trotting around in the previous home, or else she wouldn't have bought it. So why would she think she can now return it, when she's had it for a week and something's gone wrong whilst it's in her care? That's ridiculous. 

Things go wrong with horses - if you don't like that fact or are going to constantly try to pass the blame onto someone else then don't have them. They're expensive and things rarely go to plan. It's par for the course.


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## ester (24 November 2016)

Surely we aren't talking much money here? If it's such an issue send the pony for meat and write off the rest


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## Tyssandi (24 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			Advice please for a friend. A friend of mine has just purchased a pony from a breeder (who breeds to sell so would also be a dealer I assume?) The pony arrived a week ago, unbacked and straight from the field so will give the seller the benefit of the doubt that they thought the pony was OK. We wormed her and kept her in for a few days as she had been in a big herd, she did, however, get turned out in a small,all weather turn out during the day. The owner had not seen her move other than walk. Two days ago we turned the pony out and it walked to the paddock almost as if it was drunk. When it trotted off it was obviously lame on both hind legs, one being worse than the other. We contacted the seller who said we had obviously caused a problem which we certainly hadn't! We got the vet who confirmed that the pony was bilaterally lame behind, she agreed that if it had been one leg then of course it could have happened since delivery but not both hind legs. She watched her walk and trot up and also noted a peculiar drunk action. She also walked down hill strangely and looked very uncoordinated on the lunge. The vet did some wobbler tests and the pony showed obvious signs of a neurological problem. She fell on me in the tail pulling test and walked all over her own feet when turning a tight circle, she also struggled to walk down hill with her head up. Classic neuro signs. Our vet advised that the pony has a long standing issue that hadn't just come on. We told the seller this but she won't have any of it and has almost accused my friend of abusing the pony! Vet said that the breeder should take the pony back and fully refund. Seller is not willing to. Friend didnt have the pony vetted (silly I know!) but even without the vetting the pony is not fit for the purpose my friend stated she wanted her for... A riding pony. Can anyone help as to how to move forward?
		
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Hmmm 

 What was she like when coming out the trailer or truck?  did she come off ok?     Have you noticed during the time kept in her bed messy or any protruding objects she could   bang her self on???    I would check that as well as  speak to your vet and get a thorough examination of the pony, get a written report from the vet in case you need that as evidence later on.  

  You say she has  come in straight from the field! is it possible she has never been in a box and panicked during the night.?   You say you kept her in then turned out in a small all weather turnout  but did not say she was funny then only   Two days ago she went funny, now it could be long shot she may have been on bute but as  she was not vetted or bloods taken you will never know now. 

I think firstly get a proper vet examination and go from there.


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## rowan666 (24 November 2016)

equi said:



			So its been in isolation but had company all the time....which is it? Not all horses calm down even with horses for company, esp those who have only just been brought in from a field.  

Also, its never been lunged but lunged for the vet?
		
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This utterly confused me too! A horse running out with it's herd it's whole life and suddenly taken away and locked up (and yes that is how any horse would see it when they've never been stabled before) in a strange place in isolation would undoubtedly cause a massive amount of stress which can cause or bring forward any number of issues, I don't think the seller is at fault here, I'm guessing the seller as a breeder most likely had others for sale at the same time that could have been just as likely chosen for purchase instead?


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## Snuffles (24 November 2016)

Just a thought that the breeder maybe would like to safeguard their reputation by taking pony back ?


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## DD (24 November 2016)

TheMule said:



			I would question the vet's opinion- neurological symptoms do very often come on very suddenly when related to trauma. I'd want the pony on a high dose of anti-inflammatories and probably a course of steroids too in case of trauma.
Otherwise, did she go and view the pony? If not and not vetted then I don't think there'd be much comeback. How did the pony get to it's new home? Surely neurological symptoms would have shown when travelling?
		
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^^^^^
this


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## blitznbobs (24 November 2016)

Tbh I don't think anyone could argue the buyer performed 'due diligence' prior to buying... Your best bet is to talk to the vendor and hope they are kind and reasonable... No sane lawyer would take this on... It's a loser in the court system.


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## charlie76 (24 November 2016)

Downton Dame said:



			^^^^^
this
		
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It was delivered by the previous owners, it was crash about a bit when they pulled in but assumed it was because it had not travelled before.


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## charlie76 (24 November 2016)

rowan666 said:



			This utterly confused me too! A horse running out with it's herd it's whole life and suddenly taken away and locked up (and yes that is how any horse would see it when they've never been stabled before) in a strange place in isolation would undoubtedly cause a massive amount of stress which can cause or bring forward any number of issues, I don't think the seller is at fault here, I'm guessing the seller as a breeder most likely had others for sale at the same time that could have been just as likely chosen for purchase instead?
		
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What is there to be confused about? Following a horse coming from the a dealer that bought strangles into the yard all new horses are kept away (but in sight of) other horses. This is common practice in many yards. As is worming and keeping in for a 24-48hrs. As stated. It wasn't 'locked up', it was in at night and turned out in a pen during the day. Also, the pony was in no way stressed, just quietly mooching and eating hay so please don't assume the pony was upset or stressed as this is not the case.


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## charlie76 (24 November 2016)

ester said:



			Surely we aren't talking much money here? If it's such an issue send the pony for meat and write off the rest
		
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It cost lot more than meat money I think.


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## minesadouble (24 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			It cost lot more than meat money I think.
		
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Just out of curiosity is it a BRP or a native breed?


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## ycbm (24 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			Also, the pony was in no way stressed, just quietly mooching and eating hay so please don't assume the pony was upset or stressed as this is not the case.
		
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You cannot know this unless the pony was blood tested for stress hormones.


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## charlie76 (24 November 2016)

Native breed. Ycmb.. I think most experienced horse people can tell the difference between a stressed pony or a calm one. The pony has no sign of any external injury due to being stressed in the stable.


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## ycbm (24 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			Native breed. Ycmb.. I think most experienced horse people can tell the difference between a stressed pony or a calm one. The pony has no sign of any external injury due to being stressed in the stable.
		
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Nobody can tell what's going on,  stress wise, inside a horse without blood tests. Horses are specialist at hiding weakness from predators. You don't know this pony at all yet. You are in no position to know whether it's calm, compared to 'normal' for it, or shut down compared to normal for it.

I don't believe any pony removed at that age from the place where it was born and bred can possibly be completely stress free.


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## be positive (24 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			Advice please for a friend. A friend of mine has just purchased a pony from a breeder (who breeds to sell so would also be a dealer I assume?) The pony arrived a week ago, unbacked and straight from the field so will give the seller the benefit of the doubt that they thought the pony was OK. We wormed her and kept her in for a few days as she had been in a big herd, she did, however, get turned out in a small,all weather turn out during the day. The owner had not seen her move other than walk. Two days ago we turned the pony out and it walked to the paddock almost as if it was drunk. When it trotted off it was obviously lame on both hind legs, one being worse than the other. We contacted the seller who said we had obviously caused a problem which we certainly hadn't! We got the vet who confirmed that the pony was bilaterally lame behind, she agreed that if it had been one leg then of course it could have happened since delivery but not both hind legs. She watched her walk and trot up and also noted a peculiar drunk action. She also walked down hill strangely and looked very uncoordinated on the lunge. The vet did some wobbler tests and the pony showed obvious signs of a neurological problem. She fell on me in the tail pulling test and walked all over her own feet when turning a tight circle, she also struggled to walk down hill with her head up. Classic neuro signs. Our vet advised that the pony has a long standing issue that hadn't just come on. We told the seller this but she won't have any of it and has almost accused my friend of abusing the pony! Vet said that the breeder should take the pony back and fully refund. Seller is not willing to. Friend didnt have the pony vetted (silly I know!) but even without the vetting the pony is not fit for the purpose my friend stated she wanted her for... A riding pony. Can anyone help as to how to move forward?
		
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I cannot see how a vet can state that it could not have been injured since arriving with you because it is in both hind legs but if only in one it may have happened since arriving, a slip can damage the SI and make them bi laterally lame, I also think they cannot say how long the so called neuro issue has been evident, the vet is obviously working for you but with no real diagnostics I think they are pushing the boundaries to make these assumptions.
If the pony arrived with problems why on earth was it not picked up within the first 24 hours, I would expect any professional YO to double check any new arrivals for obvious signs of illness as well as a check to ensure they were sound, I think it could easily have slipped up either traveling or in the stable, it is not always obvious when something has had a fall, one of mine fell in the stable recently but I would have had no idea if it had not been seen by a livery, he was unhurt but they are not all so lucky.


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## ycbm (24 November 2016)

BP you remind me of a horse I knew who walked out of her stable in the morning without a mark on her with a fractured pelvis.


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## ester (24 November 2016)

I think proving it was pre existing might be tricky without throwing a fair wack more money at the situation, and even then whether as a breeder a certain level of knowledge is assumed that they should have known about it/if they are deemed dealer legally. I think it depends on whether they want to throw dosh at it or not. They certainly don't have a clear case against the seller as it stands.

How anyone spent much more than meat money on an unshown as it doesn't trot in hand untried pony they only saw trot in the field is a bit beyond me! It must have looked bloomin nice in the field which suggests it was just fine then and something happened since then.


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## popsdosh (24 November 2016)

Have to agree ,we bought a fully papered sectionB foal recently which had been taught to lead and handled(been shown) at auction for £50 its MC passport and registration must have nearly cost that.

If you buy youngstock you always have to go into it with the thought this may go wrong ,there are so many things that can.


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## sport horse (24 November 2016)

I do not know how you/your vet can be sure that the pony did not injure itself in the stable in the first few days with you. I have had a horse break its pelvis in a top class stable. Went to bed at night fine, by morning it could only crawl cross the yard.


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## Elf On A Shelf (24 November 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Have to agree ,we bought a fully papered sectionB foal recently which had been taught to lead and handled(been shown) at auction for £50 its MC passport and registration must have nearly cost that.

If you buy youngstock you always have to go into it with the thought this may go wrong ,there are so many things that can.
		
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It would have cost double that to register your foal when you take into account registration fees alongside the vets fees.  And let's assume the breeder was a member of the wpcs then you have that to add on to get cheaper fees.

It's scary how much it costs.

Op you gave no idea what is normal and what is stressed for this pony. Most Breeders won't sell a dodgy one,  especially not to be a ridden pony as it is their prefix on the pony for the world to see. Any dodgy business and word will spread not to. Buy from them so. It's really not worth their time. And hassle to let a lame one sell.


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## stormox (24 November 2016)

How ridiculous that she  didnt even bother to look properly, just saw it 'mooching about' - surely anyone with any common sense would have  asked for it to be trotted up, backed, turned etc?


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## charlie76 (24 November 2016)

Please read the thread! I didn't say she saw it mooching about when she viewed it, I said that the owner chased it round the field with its field friends. I said it had only mooched about in the indoor turn out at the yard hence not seeing the unlevelness.


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## charlie76 (24 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			Nobody can tell what's going on,  stress wise, inside a horse without blood tests. Horses are specialist at hiding weakness from predators. You don't know this pony at all yet. You are in no position to know whether it's calm, compared to 'normal' for it, or shut down compared to normal for it.

I don't believe any pony removed at that age from the place where it was born and bred can possibly be completely stress free.
		
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I don't know a single person that would blood test to test the hormones to assess if a horse is stressed, usually you would use you eyes and knowledge. If anyone has blood tested each time they need to know if their horse is stressed then I apologise but surely common sense is enough!


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## charlie76 (24 November 2016)

I'm not saying the breeder knew it had an issue, probably didn't if it had just been out with loads of others. What about people that by horses unseen? If the horse then turns up and not as described or unlevel would you expect to just take it and put up with it as they also wouldn't have seen the horse move? Many, many people do buy unseen after all? I know a separate example but a similar situation. Anyway, I've passed on everyone's thoughts. Thanks


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## Amymay (24 November 2016)

What about people that by horses unseen? If the horse then turns up and not as described or unlevel *would you expect to just take it and put up with it *as they also wouldn't have seen the horse move? Many, many people do buy unseen after all?
		
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Actually I would. 

As for your friends situation, it sucks.  But to be honest I'd probably just suck it up,  give the pony some time and go from there.  I wouldn't pursue returning it under the circumstances. 

How is the pony generally now?


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## charlie76 (24 November 2016)

Still the same, today she fell over into the stable wall whilst bending down to drink from her bucket, poor thing. Different Vet coming in the next few weeks days to give an independent opinion.


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## Meowy Catkin (24 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			I don't know a single person that would blood test to test the hormones to assess if a horse is stressed, usually you would use you eyes and knowledge. If anyone has blood tested each time they need to know if their horse is stressed then I apologise but surely common sense is enough!
		
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Ycbm is correct. I watched a really eye opening programme about training Police horses and they showed horses having a hissy fit at the training hazards and then other horses walking calmly past the same hazards. By observation the hissy fit horses looked way more stressed but when you looked at the results from the heart rate monitors, the most stressed were actually the outwardly calm horses. This can apparently also be seen when cortisol levels are checked. It showed that the Police horses were REALLY well trained, as they did as they were asked, despite being genuinely worried.

^This is just for general interest really as I'm not sure that it's completely pertinent for your friends sad situation.


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## Equi (24 November 2016)

People who buy unseen usually have the good sense to have it vetted and viewed properly - not just chased about a field with a bunch of other horses.


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## charlie76 (24 November 2016)

Not necessarily, I sold a horse to Jersey a few years ago, she bought the horse for over 8k from a few videos, no one came to see her. Granted she was vetted but not viewed.


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## charlie76 (24 November 2016)

Re the stressed thing, she is just behaving in the exact same way as any other horse on the yard and has been from day one. This isn't the first time she has been stabled by the way, that fact was just assumed. She isn't feral! Was just in a yard with no facilities at time of viewing.


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## Equi (24 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			Not necessarily, I sold a horse to Jersey a few years ago, she bought the horse for over 8k from a few videos, no one came to see her. Granted she was vetted but not viewed.
		
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By viewed i meant more so by the vet doing a vetting...they would have been viewing it so to speak.


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## Amymay (24 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			Still the same, today she fell over into the stable wall whilst bending down to drink from her bucket, poor thing. Different Vet coming in the next few weeks days to give an independent opinion.
		
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If the pony is that bad surely it needs to be seen within days - not weeks?


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## charlie76 (24 November 2016)

Sorry, typo, vet came yesterday, second vet coming tomorrow to reassess.


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## Equi (24 November 2016)

...okay....

Well let us know what happens.


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## Boulty (25 November 2016)

Which wormer was used?  I have heard of (rare) reactions with similar symptoms to certain wormers.  I don't know if any were officially reported and definitely linked to the wormer but I have heard of the odd case on th e grapevine of neuological signs.  There is also the possibility that the horse HAS done something during transport or in the stable as it sounds like the symptoms you're describing should have been evident at time of viewing if present at that time


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## Equi (25 November 2016)

Boulty said:



			Which wormer was used?  I have heard of (rare) reactions with similar symptoms to certain wormers.  I don't know if any were officially reported and definitely linked to the wormer but I have heard of the odd case on th e grapevine of neuological signs.  There is also the possibility that the horse HAS done something during transport or in the stable as it sounds like the symptoms you're describing should have been evident at time of viewing if present at that time
		
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Ill say the wormer i think you mean - equest & paramox- but specifically the active ingredients moxidectin and praziquantel. The many stories of issues is the reason i won't use it on my miniature horses! Overdose of it is serious, which is why the weight of the animal must be quite accurate. I know this is not a mini horse, but perhaps the weight of it was overestimated or the pony had some sort of intolerance.


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## Amymay (25 November 2016)

Keep us posted.


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## ycbm (25 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			I'm not saying the breeder knew it had an issue, probably didn't if it had just been out with loads of others. What about people that by horses unseen? If the horse then turns up and not as described or unlevel would you expect to just take it and put up with it as they also wouldn't have seen the horse move? Many, many people do buy unseen after all? I know a separate example but a similar situation. Anyway, I've passed on everyone's thoughts. Thanks
		
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I've done it several times. Twice the exchange took place in a motorway services lorry park. One that was delivered was a dreadful shape horse who looked nothing like his videos. 

Obviously if the horse had been on three legs I would have refused it,  but I fully accepted that once it was home there was nothing I could do if it was a bad one. You don't buy unseen and unvetted (or barely seen as in your friend's case) unless you can afford to lose the money.

There is no way that pony could have been chased around the field with its mates to show it off for the buyer if it now can't stand to drink.  Whatever has happened has happened since she saw it, or possibly in the trailer on the way to her.


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## FestiveFuzz (25 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			I'm not saying the breeder knew it had an issue, probably didn't if it had just been out with loads of others. What about people that by horses unseen? If the horse then turns up and not as described or unlevel would you expect to just take it and put up with it as they also wouldn't have seen the horse move? Many, many people do buy unseen after all? I know a separate example but a similar situation. Anyway, I've passed on everyone's thoughts. Thanks
		
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equi said:



			People who buy unseen usually have the good sense to have it vetted and viewed properly - not just chased about a field with a bunch of other horses.
		
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This! I'm totally not against buying unseen, but I would absolutely ensure the horse was 5 stage vetted (by my own vet), bloods had been taken and depending on how much I was spending I'd probably get x-rays done too. I wouldn't even get to the stage of vetting until I'd seen decent videos of the horse loose (assuming I was buying a youngster) or under saddle if it was broken. I'd also want side profile pics from both sides and pics of the legs/hooves. 

I can't comprehend anyone spending more than meat money on a horse that they've only seen from afar and then not getting it vetted, but then maybe I'm just an overly cautious type that likes to minimise the risk I take on.


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## Slightly Foxed (25 November 2016)

LinzyD said:



			So, what I am saying, is that a proper diagnosis is required first and foremost, and it's not a foregone conclusion that the buyer has no redress simply because they did not have a vetting.  Diagnosis... then legal advice from an equestrian specialist depending on what the diagnosis is... then decide on the course of action, as it's pointless to speculate until the diagnosis is known.  In the meantime, write to the vendor to explain that this is what is being done.  

If the pony is uninsured and the buyer is not willing to pay for a diagnosis, then there's not a lot to be done in terms of returning the pony.
		
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This, absolutely. Very sound advice.


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## ester (25 November 2016)

How much money are you going to throw at a diagnosis though given you have to prove it not just a vets hunch? Once you start X-Raying and scanning you could rapidly get over the price of the pony


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## stormox (25 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			I'm not saying the breeder knew it had an issue, probably didn't if it had just been out with loads of others. What about people that by horses unseen? If the horse then turns up and not as described or unlevel would you expect to just take it and put up with it as they also wouldn't have seen the horse move? Many, many people do buy unseen after all? I know a separate example but a similar situation. Anyway, I've passed on everyone's thoughts. Thanks
		
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The thing is, buying unseen you are relying on the sellers word. Going to look at something you are taking the responsibility  on yourself.


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## Firefly9410 (25 November 2016)

I think with the vets diagnosis and opinion of the condition being pre existing I would be wanting the seller to take the pony back and issue a full refund. Whether the seller knew about the condition or not, because the pony was sold as part of a business. 

As a separate thing when the purchaser buys a new pony can I suggest they have it delivered by someone other than the seller? I reputable horse transport firm may cost more but the drivers should be experienced and the firm has a reputation to uphold regarding driving. The seller could have offered free delivery perhaps then having already been paid for the pony drove faster than they should have to get the journey done quicker causing distress or injury to the pony. Or they may be bad drivers anyway. There is no way for the purchaser to know if they did not travel down with the seller when they delivered the pony.


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## ester (25 November 2016)

But if the condition as currently stated was pre existing it doesn't sound like it would have trotted around the field as it did on viewing. With enough quality movement that the purchaser thought it would be good enough to show?!


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## ihatework (25 November 2016)

Life's about risk management. Buying horses is risk.
If you buy a horse unvetted then IMO you accept the risk you are buying a dud.
If you choose not to insure then you accept the risk of a big vets bill.

One thing I have no time for is people who try and divert blame when they take a risk and it fails.


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## applecart14 (25 November 2016)

My horse was ten when he fell onto his neck in the field damaging his neck vertebrae and he was pts months later following comprehensive evaluation and diagnosis at Liverpool, when there was nothing they could do to save him.

Current horse aged 19 pulled back in stable in May whilst tied up (bl*ody bailing twine) - has since showed neuro defecit.

It depends on the age of the pony, if we are talking two or three then quite possibly age related (due to overfeeding of high protein foodstuffs causing rapid development) but older than this are usually your traumatic injuries presumably because anything younger has to have been much younger as the vet would have been out to it by that stage and diagnosed it by then.

My physio is dealing with two or three wobblers cases at the moment alone!


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## applecart14 (25 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			When it was turned loose in the turn out it just mooched about so nothing really to see to be honest. Yes she did go and view the pony but it was just out in the paddock. The pony has had no trauma since its been at its new yard so whatever happened to make it like this definitely hasn't happened since it arrived unless something happened in the trailer when it was delivered. There was also over a week's gap between viewing and delivery.
		
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Sorry but trauma to necks don't just happen whilst out in a field.  They can happen whilst in a stable tied up to something unforgiving (like twine that doesn't break or one of these pretty but dangerous nylon headcollars that never snap and that you can tow a car with quite confidently if you break down and have no tow rope without fear of it snapping) or whilst rolling in a stable, travelling in a trailer and getting stuck under the breast bar, getting caught up on a horse walker, face planting in the arena and about a thousand other reasons besides.

Going back to page three of this thread, with EHV (Equine Herpes Virus) its worth knowing that 33% of the horses in the world if tested today would test positive to EHV, three on my horses yard including mine did.  That's not to say they are suffering from it but they are potential shredders.  when stressed the virus will shed.  So whether a horse yard is clean and previously virus free has little to do with it.  

My own horse has at present pinworm.  However, he is kept immaculately and worm counted very frequently, yet still managed to pick it up.  He is not some dirty minging horse full of lice and long hair and dumped in a field and not checked from week to week.

you can't use 'clean yard' etc as the reasons for a horse not possibly being able to pick up EHV, in exactly the same way I couldn't say my horse would NEVER catch pinworm because he has and cleanliness has stuff all to do with it.


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## stormox (25 November 2016)

Firefly9410 said:



			I think with the vets diagnosis and opinion of the condition being pre existing I would be wanting the seller to take the pony back and issue a full refund. Whether the seller knew about the condition or not, because the pony was sold as part of a business. 
.
		
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If the condition was there when the pony was viewed (however  briefly) and if its as bad as the OP says, it would surely have been noticed at the time, or during loading/unloading from the transport. I tend to think that this is something that has occurred since the buyer got the pony home.


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## popsdosh (25 November 2016)

ihatework said:



			Life's about risk management. Buying horses is risk.
If you buy a horse unvetted then IMO you accept the risk you are buying a dud.
If you choose not to insure then you accept the risk of a big vets bill.

One thing I have no time for is people who try and divert blame when they take a risk and it fails.
		
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Im afraid we are getting more and more of them im afraid,it always has to be somebody elses fault! Does my head in.


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## charlie76 (25 November 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Sorry but trauma to necks don't just happen whilst out in a field.  They can happen whilst in a stable tied up to something unforgiving (like twine that doesn't break or one of these pretty but dangerous headcollars that never snap) or whilst rolling in a stable, travelling in a trailer and getting stuck under the breast bar, getting caught up on a horse walker, face planting in the arena and about a thousand other reasons besides.
		
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none of which has happened to it since being at the yard. The previous owner delivered it so if something happened on the way then they failed to mention it, if they had of then the pony would have been immediately checked. It hasn't been tied up since being at the yard, it has gone from stable to turn out pen or paddock and back to stable again, the only time she has fallen in the stable is AFTER vets visit. This mare has done nothing at the yard since arriving to cause injury. For a horse to show such symptoms due to an accident in the stable there would be , at the very least, a sign of the bedding being disturbed.


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## charlie76 (25 November 2016)

stormox said:



			If the condition was there when the pony was viewed (however  briefly) and if its as bad as the OP says, it would surely have been noticed at the time, or during loading/unloading from the transport. I tend to think that this is something that has occurred since the buyer got the pony home.
		
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I can 100% guarantee that nothing has happened to the pony since it was delivered. Some thing may well have occurred during transportation by the vendor ( she insisted in delivering the pony) but if it did they chose not to tell the purchaser as if they had the pony would have been checked before handing the money over.


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## ester (25 November 2016)

Unless you have been watching the pony 24/7 you cannot 100% guarantee anything!?

Did no one trot it up before the vendor left and 'accepting' the pony?

why did it look ok when the buyer viewed if it was pre-existing?


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## popsdosh (25 November 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Sorry but trauma to necks don't just happen whilst out in a field.  They can happen whilst in a stable tied up to something unforgiving (like twine that doesn't break or one of these pretty but dangerous headcollars that never snap) or whilst rolling in a stable, travelling in a trailer and getting stuck under the breast bar, getting caught up on a horse walker, face planting in the arena and about a thousand other reasons besides.
		
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Of course traumas to neck can happen anywhere or are you contradicting yourself in your two posts. Havent seen anything yet that says it is neck but heho we can all jump to assumptions which I am guessing the purchaser may have done with the vet comments .To be honest a vet that can tell that much without examaning the pony or carrying out test is indeed very brave or stupid and I dont think their opinion would count for much without looking more deeply. Maybe the purchaser is clutching at straws along with the yo because it couldnt have happened here ,well it simply most likely did.


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## Casey76 (25 November 2016)

Could the pony have got cast while he was in quarantine?

It does sound as if he is deteriorating poor mite, which for me would signal neuro issues due to infection, trauma (crush injury to spinal cord ), or possibly a very rare adverse event to wormer or recent vaccination.

If infection or trauma, a hefty dose of dex would reduce any swelling and lead to an improvement in neuro symptoms, but it would still need to be investigated the underlying cause.


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## popsdosh (25 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			I can 100% guarantee that nothing has happened to the pony since it was delivered. Some thing may well have occurred during transportation by the vendor ( she insisted in delivering the pony) but if it did they chose not to tell the purchaser as if they had the pony would have been checked before handing the money over.
		
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To be honest on most yards I know this would indeed have happened whether incident reported or not its basic management with horses arriving surely.


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## charlie76 (25 November 2016)

The reason that we know that nothing has happened is that the yard is on cctv (its a barn) so the stables are on video of which can be played back. The yard is a stud so has foaling cameras on 24/7.


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## popsdosh (25 November 2016)

Casey76 said:



			Could the pony have got cast while he was in quarantine?

It does sound as if he is deteriorating poor mite, which for me would signal neuro issues due to infection, trauma (crush injury to spinal cord ), or possibly a very rare adverse event to wormer or recent vaccination.

If infection or trauma, a hefty dose of dex would reduce any swelling and lead to an improvement in neuro symptoms, but it would still need to be investigated the underlying cause.
		
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Not sure I would give a' hefty dose of Dex' to a horse with an infection you would most likely kill it


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## ester (25 November 2016)

Ok I'm impressed with someone's viewing tenacity  so the other question was why was it ok in the field on viewing if pre-existing??
and did anyone check it off the lorry before accepting it??


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## charlie76 (25 November 2016)

Throwing something into the mix, which people on here may want to bare in mind if selling horses for a living, having now looked into this in detail, for my own knowledge as well as to help friend. If you are a dealer or a breeder that sells, it is irrelevant if the pony was viewed or vetted. If the pony is not fit for the purpose it was advertised for then the 'goods' are faulty and therefore can be returned. So if the independent vet says that this has to be a preexisting issue then a full refund plus costs can be expected. The fact that it wasn't vetted or viewed to what you or I would do has no influence. In the same way that If you purchased an oven, you wouldn't take food into the shop to test it cooked it, you would buy the oven and if on delivery it didn't work cook the food you would be entitled to a refund.


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## stormox (25 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			Throwing something into the mix, which people on here may want to bare in mind if selling horses for a living, having now looked into this in detail, for my own knowledge as well as to help friend. If you are a dealer or a breeder that sells, it is irrelevant if the pony was viewed or vetted. If the pony is not fit for the purpose it was advertised for then the 'goods' are faulty and therefore can be returned. So if the independent vet says that this has to be a preexisting issue then a full refund plus costs can be expected. The fact that it wasn't vetted or viewed to what you or I would do has no influence. In the same way that If you purchased an oven, you wouldn't take food into the shop to test it cooked it, you would buy the oven and if on delivery it didn't work cook the food you would be entitled to a refund.
		
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And how was this pony advertised?


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## ponypatters (25 November 2016)

Very tricky situation - if you cannot prove that the horse suffered with a specific problem prior to the purchase date, you will unlikely recover the refund.  If you can prove the pony had this issue before you bought it, then it might be worthwhile considering issuing a small claim (assuming the pony is low value and within small claim boundary) against the dealer.  It will get their attention and may prompt a refund.  However, I know proving the issue was there before the purchase is extremely tricky, especially without any vetting.  We live and learn !


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## charlie76 (25 November 2016)

stormox said:



			And how was this pony advertised?
		
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Ready to be backed and bought on. Also the new owner has messages to the vendor stating that she wanted the pony to ride and show.


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## Tiddlypom (25 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			The reason that we know that nothing has happened is that the yard is on cctv (its a barn) so the stables are on video of which can be played back. The yard is a stud so has foaling cameras on 24/7.
		
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You've watched several days worth of coverage in the stable, from the time of the pony's arrival? Is this time lapse or real time viewing?

How about about the turn out area, is that covered by CCTV?


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## charlie76 (25 November 2016)

It's live and recorded so can be played back, the turn out is in the barn too so yes. It's an indoor turn out. Everything under the same roof including the stables, barn, turn out and walker. When the pony went out for a bit in the paddock she already showed the issue as soon as she was let off so didn't happen in the field


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## ycbm (25 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			Throwing something into the mix, which people on here may want to bare in mind if selling horses for a living, having now looked into this in detail, for my own knowledge as well as to help friend. If you are a dealer or a breeder that sells, it is irrelevant if the pony was viewed or vetted. If the pony is not fit for the purpose it was advertised for then the 'goods' are faulty and therefore can be returned. So if the vet says that this has to be a preexisting issue then a full refund plus costs can be expected. The fact that it wasn't vetted or viewed to what you or I would do has no influence. In the same way that If you purchased an oven, you wouldn't take food into the shop to test it cooked it, you would buy the oven and if on delivery it didn't work cook the food you would be entitled to a refund.
		
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But the vet doesn't even know what the issue is, and the claim that it is a pre existing condition will not stand up until someone has identified what the condition actually is. And even then, you would, surely, have to prove that the symptoms were either there at the date and time of purchase or that the pre existing condition was certain to make the pony not fit for purpose in the reasonable future?  That might be very difficult. For example, a likely cause is congenital wobblers, with C3/C4 constriction. But there are, I'm told, a lot of congenital wobblers in full work. A second possibility is EHV virus but that could have been activated by a move, since horses can carry it with no issues.

Surely this case is going to hinge around what is actually wrong with the pony?  Is it being x rayed C76. ?


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## blitznbobs (25 November 2016)

As a (human) doctor with a law degree I really want this to go to court and is like to come and watch... just to watch the judge... I wish 'your friend' luck, they are going to need it... I do feel very sorry for the pony tho..


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## ycbm (25 November 2016)

Did it not lie down and stand up or roll in that time? If it did, you'll have a hard job proving that it didn't tweak its back, neck or pelvis if nothing definitively pre-existing can be found on x rays.


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## charlie76 (25 November 2016)

No it didn't. Maybe because it was already wrong. S


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## stormox (25 November 2016)

Has the vet given a definite diagnosis of what is wrong with the pony? Have you had bloods taken and tested? I think it could be expensive to actually PROVE this pony had an existing problem when it was viewed and bought as no one seemed to notice anything wrong.


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## popsdosh (25 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			Throwing something into the mix, which people on here may want to bare in mind if selling horses for a living, having now looked into this in detail, for my own knowledge as well as to help friend. If you are a dealer or a breeder that sells, it is irrelevant if the pony was viewed or vetted. If the pony is not fit for the purpose it was advertised for then the 'goods' are faulty and therefore can be returned. So if the independent vet says that this has to be a preexisting issue then a full refund plus costs can be expected. The fact that it wasn't vetted or viewed to what you or I would do has no influence. In the same way that If you purchased an oven, you wouldn't take food into the shop to test it cooked it, you would buy the oven and if on delivery it didn't work cook the food you would be entitled to a refund.
		
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Can you tell me how being a breeder makes you a dealer ? As i dont know many breeders that make a living at it LOL. Its the first time I have heard this. I really think you are clutching at a rapidly disappearing pile of straws. I am afraid in court unless you can prove the breeder is a dealer you will come up against the saying Caveat emptor which seeing as the purchaser had no pre sales checks done the seller will not be liable even if there was an issue at the time. To be honest if the courts are to be proceeded with I would not put any more on here as it may harm the case.
What I find so hard to believe is that a pony that has got so bad now would have a pre existing condition that did not show up sooner ie when turned into the indoor turnout how did it get there ?


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## Slightly Foxed (25 November 2016)

I think you are classified as a dealer if you sell something like 3 horses in one year, not sure of the exact amount. Anyway, I believe caveat emptor no longer applies under the Sale of Goods Act.


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## ycbm (25 November 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Can you tell me how being a breeder makes you a dealer ? As i dont know many breeders that make a living at it LOL. Its the first time I have heard this. I really think you are clutching at a rapidly disappearing pile of straws. I am afraid in court unless you can prove the breeder is a dealer you will come up against the saying Caveat emptor which seeing as the purchaser had no pre sales checks done the seller will not be liable even if there was an issue at the time. To be honest if the courts are to be proceeded with I would not put any more on here as it may harm the case.
		
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If the animal is sold in the course of a business then I'm pretty sure that makes them subject to exactly the same laws as someone who buys in and sells on.  This will hinge around how many they breed and sell, and breeding with the intention to sell, not whether they make a profit doing it.




C76 reading between all the lines it sounds as though this pony damaged itself in the trailer on the way to your friend. Was it already paid for at that time?  Did she own it while it was travelling, or not?  It's a very unfortunate situation for all concerned, but especially for your friend


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## ycbm (25 November 2016)

Slightly Foxed said:



			I think you are classified as a dealer if you sell something like 3 horses in one year, not sure of the exact amount. Anyway, I believe caveat emptor no longer applies under the Sale of Goods Act.
		
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That was definitely the rule on 1988 when a friend of mine sued and won. But I think it has now been modified to include intent. So if you buy a horse with the intention of later selling it at a profit, then that's 'dealing' even if you only do one, and the Sale of Goods Act applies.

Can any lawyers confirm?


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## popsdosh (25 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			That was definitely the rule on 1988 when a friend of mine sued and won. But I think it has now been modified to include intent. So if you buy a horse with the intention of later selling it at a profit, then that's 'dealing' even if you only do one, and the Sale of Goods Act applies.

Can any lawyers confirm?
		
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Under the new consumer rights act a trader is defined as selling goods that are part of a business or profession . I dont think many horse breeders will be in that category as the main test will be if it is registered with HMRC as a business for taxation purposes or indeed if a breeding enterprise is part of somebodies self assessment returns

If it is indeed possible to prove that the seller was a trader then its a slam dunk as within 30 days you can return the goods for a full refund with no need to prove they are faulty .

The right to reject
In the first instance, and crucially, within 30 days of both ownership having passed and the horse having been delivered, the consumer has a short-term right to reject the horse.

If you wish to reject the horse, you must clearly indicate that you are treating the contract between you and the trader as being at an end  it is best to do this in writing. The consumer will be entitled to a refund of any monies paid and the trader must bear the reasonable cost of returning the horse.

So if you can prove they are traders everything else is not an issue, but that will be very near impossible I feel unless they are breeding on a large scale and have made it into a business as far as HMRC are concerned. as I am only to well aware it is not at all easy to get HMRC to agree to breeding enterprises becoming businesses as you need to overcome the long term viability and income rules they have for maintaining business status. I would love them to accept my breeding operation but they just wont.


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## charlie76 (25 November 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Can you tell me how being a breeder makes you a dealer ? As i dont know many breeders that make a living at it LOL. Its the first time I have heard this. I really think you are clutching at a rapidly disappearing pile of straws. I am afraid in court unless you can prove the breeder is a dealer you will come up against the saying Caveat emptor which seeing as the purchaser had no pre sales checks done the seller will not be liable even if there was an issue at the time. To be honest if the courts are to be proceeded with I would not put any more on here as it may harm the case.
What I find so hard to believe is that a pony that has got so bad now would have a pre existing condition that did not show up sooner ie when turned into the indoor turnout how did it get there ?
		
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Can easily prove they are being bred to sell as there is a Facebook page with copious amounts of testimonials and horses and ponies for sale. Therefore making a living from breeding and Selling. Not just a hobby breeder.


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## scrapster (25 November 2016)

I haven't read all the comments, but neuro issues can come on quickly and I am very surprised your vet hasn't spoken to you about things other than wobblers!  My boy came in from the field one day, he was fine,  started eating his tea and fell against the wall as though he was having a fit. To cut a very long story short,  he was ataxic (which one vet said was lame, another said colic and then my own vet said neuro) anyway vitamin E and steroids and he's now fine (retired but for other issues). It's very common for a horse to injure itself in the field or stable and present neuro symptoms and the suggestion of luping ill encephalitis was made to me and what vets thought it was but tests showed inconclusive. I don't think you could blame the seller.


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## southerncomfort (25 November 2016)

ester said:



			Unless you have been watching the pony 24/7 you cannot 100% guarantee anything!?

Did no one trot it up before the vendor left and 'accepting' the pony?

why did it look ok when the buyer viewed if it was pre-existing?
		
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Don't think you are going to get an answer Ester!  

OP - I'm afraid you took an almighty risk and it didn't come off.  Best to suck it up and do whatever is best for the poor little mite.  I think you need to get a proper diagnosis.  I can see why you are angry and I can see why you feel like you've been done over, the fact is that unless and until you have confirmation of a pre-existing condition you won't get anywhere.  And even then, any judge in the land will ask why the pony wasn't brought out of the field and properly examined by the purchaser and why no vetting took place.

P.S I'm addressing it to you as I suspect around 99% of these 'asking for a friend' threads are actually about the original poster.  Apologies if I'm wrong.


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## Tiddlypom (25 November 2016)

Has EHV been tested for?


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## popsdosh (25 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			Can easily prove they are being bred to sell as there is a Facebook page with copious amounts of testimonials and horses and ponies for sale. Therefore making a living from breeding and Selling. Not just a hobby breeder.
		
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Making a living from breeding and selling ? I wish im sure many breeders will be laughing!


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## charlie76 (25 November 2016)

southerncomfort said:



			Don't think you are going to get an answer Ester!  

OP - I'm afraid you took an almighty risk and it didn't come off.  Best to suck it up and do whatever is best for the poor little mite.  I think you need to get a proper diagnosis.  I can see why you are angry and I can see why you feel like you've been done over, the fact is that unless and until you have confirmation of a pre-existing condition you won't get anywhere.  And even then, any judge in the land will ask why the pony wasn't brought out of the field and properly examined by the purchaser and why no vetting took place.

P.S I'm addressing it to you as I suspect around 99% of these 'asking for a friend' threads are actually about the original poster.  Apologies if I'm wrong.  

Click to expand...

I didn't take any risk! Not my pony  I have no idea if it was trotted up on delivery as I wasnt there


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## charlie76 (25 November 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Making a living from breeding and selling ? I wish im sure many breeders will be laughing!
		
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It's irrelevant whether some one is actually making any money, the fact they are frequently breeding horses and advertising them for sale amounts to the same thing. People run shops who aren't making a profit, they are still shopkeepers!


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## ester (25 November 2016)

southerncomfort said:



			Don't think you are going to get an answer Ester!  

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It would seem not, no idea why not though as I figure they are quite important questions with relatively simple yes/no answers!?!


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## Wagtail (25 November 2016)

southerncomfort said:



			Don't think you are going to get an answer Ester!  

OP - I'm afraid you took an almighty risk and it didn't come off.  Best to suck it up and do whatever is best for the poor little mite.  I think you need to get a proper diagnosis.  I can see why you are angry and I can see why you feel like you've been done over, the fact is that unless and until you have confirmation of a pre-existing condition you won't get anywhere.  And even then, any judge in the land will ask why the pony wasn't brought out of the field and properly examined by the purchaser and why no vetting took place.

P.S I'm addressing it to you as I suspect around 99% of these 'asking for a friend' threads are actually about the original poster.  Apologies if I'm wrong.  

Click to expand...

My thoughts, exactly.


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## eggs (25 November 2016)

I think Inread somewhere in this thread that the pony had been crashing about in the transporter when she was delivered.  It is very possible that she injured her at this time.

Until you get a definitive diagnosis it is hard for your 'friend' to proceed.


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## charlie76 (25 November 2016)

I can do 100% assure this pony is definitely is not mine! I have warmbloods and have no desire for a 14hh pony! Think I'd probably squash it!


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## charlie76 (25 November 2016)

ester said:



			Unless you have been watching the pony 24/7 you cannot 100% guarantee anything!?

Did no one trot it up before the vendor left and 'accepting' the pony?

why did it look ok when the buyer viewed if it was pre-existing?
		
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Sorry, I didn't see this. I have no idea if the vendor trotted up the pony when it arrived as I wasn't there. From what I have been told, the vendor unloaded it and put it straight in the stable but I will find out. I have since spoken to the new owner and she said that the only way to see her move was them that chasing in the field as no facilities. Pony was apparently lit up and all a bit adreline fuelled so could well have not been so obvious. I know from our own unfortunate situation that adrenline can hide a number of issues, we had one that snapped a foreleg xc and continued pulling like a train for a three more fences, seen this in the field too, broken leg, galloping about with its mates.


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## ester (25 November 2016)

While it is true to some extent adrenaline after an acute injury such as a broken leg is a reaction of the body to the traumatic injury not what is happening in the environment so the same is likely not applicable in this case.


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## charlie76 (25 November 2016)

Maybe but if they were pratting about on an unlevel paddock then it may not be so easy to see if there was an issue, don't get me wrong, i agree that the new owner should have insisted on seeing more but the situation and set up seem to mean she couldn't. Anyway, the vendors vet is coming to see it to give her opinion so I can update from there.


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## Clodagh (25 November 2016)

Poor pony, I hope it is an oddity that fixes itself, do please let us know.


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## charlie76 (25 November 2016)

That would be a better result as the new owner is very upset . Thank you


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## ycbm (25 November 2016)

i can't help wondering why this pony hasn't had its neck and back x rayed yet.

In the absence of any obvious illness, surely the vet should rule out spinal cord impingement as a matter of urgency?


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## Firefly9410 (26 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			I can 100% guarantee that nothing has happened to the pony since it was delivered. Some thing may well have occurred during transportation by the vendor ( she insisted in delivering the pony) but if it did they chose not to tell the purchaser as if they had the pony would have been checked before handing the money over.
		
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I suppose it is possible they knew the pony would not travel well due to having something wrong with it. Insisting on delivering it themselves seems odd to me. Offering yes or hoping to be asked yes. Maybe wanting to see where it is going to. But insisting? Could the journey have aggravated a neurological condition? Mild enough not to show on viewing when being chased round full of adrenaline but suddenly deteriorated after a difficult journey?

When it comes to risk and those who see it as blaming someone else for ones own stupidity, if a person believes or knows the law provides comeback in the event that they get ripped off then maybe they do not see themselves as taking a risk or trying to pass blame but as trusting the seller and relying on current law to get a refund if things go wrong. Like the example of a fridge which someone used earlier. I have never asked for the exact fridge I will be buying to be removed from packaging and tested in front of me before purchase. No I go in the shop see the display fridges choose and buy assuming it will be fine and knowing I can return it if it is damaged or faulty. But when it is a horse suddenly such behaviour is risky and wanting a refund is looking for someone else to blame?


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## Elf On A Shelf (26 November 2016)

I know of plenty of people who insist on delivering horses/ponies if they aren't going too far away so they can check out where they are going and so long as no money has changed hands a that point they can leave the pony in the truck and turn around back home if they don't like what they see.


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## PeterNatt (26 November 2016)

Consumer Rights Act 1 October 2015
Covers all goods including horses, livery yards, riding lessons and horsebox repairs.
Buyers have the right to a 30 day refund for faulty, not as described  (always keep advert) or not fit for purpose goods bought from a business such as dealers. 
Even after 30 days have passed the buyer can still be entitled to a refund - full if under 6 months, or partial if over 6 months but must allow the trader to repair or replace the item first.
However if you buy privately this does not apply.  
Under the new ruling those who do not apply 'reasonable care' as agreed with the consumer will have to put things right such as redo the job or give some money back. 

Under the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 the supplier has a responsibility to supply goods that are of satisfactory quality, being free of inherent defects, durable and fit for purpose.
Services should be provided with reasonable care and skill and that any goods  should be of satisfactory quality.

Letter before action   www.which.co.uk/legal

Under the Unfair Contract Tems Act 1977, the supplier can&#8217;t exclude their responsibility under the Supply of Goods and Services Act1982.  Your rights under the Act require the to provide goods that are of satisfactory quality.
When goods have an inherent defect, abd you&#8217;re not in a position to reject them within a reasonable time, you can insist that the seller provides a remedy, repair or replacement.  They should do this within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience to you.  Any warranty is in addition to your statutory rights, not instead of them.  If you have to issue legal proceedings, you have up to six years to do so in England and Wales, five in Scotland.


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## ycbm (26 November 2016)

Surely, you can only return things to the seller if you have not damaged them and they are in the same condition as they were sold to you?

A pony is not a fridge.

There is no diagnosis yet, is there, or have I missed something? Not even the most basic x rays and an EHV test.

Casey76 I think you have missed my question. Who owned the pony at the time it was transported? Had it already been paid for?


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## popsdosh (26 November 2016)

PeterNatt said:



			Consumer Rights Act 1 October 2015
Covers all goods including horses, livery yards, riding lessons and horsebox repairs.
Buyers have the right to a 30 day refund for faulty, not as described  (always keep advert) or not fit for purpose goods bought from a business such as dealers. 
Even after 30 days have passed the buyer can still be entitled to a refund - full if under 6 months, or partial if over 6 months but must allow the trader to repair or replace the item first.
However if you buy privately this does not apply.  
Under the new ruling those who do not apply 'reasonable care' as agreed with the consumer will have to put things right such as redo the job or give some money back. 

Under the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 the supplier has a responsibility to supply goods that are of satisfactory quality, being free of inherent defects, durable and fit for purpose.
Services should be provided with reasonable care and skill and that any goods  should be of satisfactory quality.

Letter before action   www.which.co.uk/legal

Under the Unfair Contract Tems Act 1977, the supplier cant exclude their responsibility under the Supply of Goods and Services Act1982.  Your rights under the Act require the to provide goods that are of satisfactory quality.
When goods have an inherent defect, abd youre not in a position to reject them within a reasonable time, you can insist that the seller provides a remedy, repair or replacement.  They should do this within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience to you.  Any warranty is in addition to your statutory rights, not instead of them.  If you have to issue legal proceedings, you have up to six years to do so in England and Wales, five in Scotland.
		
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What you missed there Peter was that within the first thirty days you can cancel the deal without any reason other than you wish to.

 This is why I am somewhat bemused that if the OP is so sure they are dealers why they are messing around with vets at all as they dont need too. 
However the OP should be aware that if it is a private sale then as long as the seller has not misled you answering your questions (ie Lied) the term of 'fit for purpose' no longer applies as the buyer is deemed to have satisfied themselves of that fact prior to purchase.

This Article is quite enlightening and tells it as it is   
http://horseandcountry.tv/buying-and-selling-horses-your-rights/

So it all hinges on whether they are traders or a private seller if their a trader you dont need any more checks just chuck it back at them!  If they were selling privately you will be stuck with it as you have no comeback


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## popsdosh (26 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			Surely, you can only return things to the seller if you have not damaged them and they are in the same condition as they were sold to you?

A pony is not a fridge.

There is no diagnosis yet, is there, or have I missed something? Not even the most basic x rays and an EHV test.

Casey76 I think you have missed my question. Who owned the pony at the time it was transported? Had it already been paid for?
		
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Indeed you cannot return goods that have been damaged ! However the OP is so very sure this is not the case .

As for the transport question its irrelevant as a contract to purchase already existed. however they would have had the protection of not having paid for it if it came off hopping lame.


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## Goldenstar (26 November 2016)

Well OP is very sure but what the owner has to think about is what can they prove and the lack of a vetting is going to be key when the matter gets to court .
To me it's a case if you behave like a fool you can expect 'bad luck 'to follow you .
It amuses greatly that they think they can prove the horse did not damage itself in their care .


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## Sukistokes2 (26 November 2016)

Very sad, hope the pony is ok. 

I think OP you friend is going to have to suck this one up. Buying from a field , esp young stock is fraught with risk. I brought my pony this way and at a time when they were quite expensive, I did see him trot on day of purchase. When he later showed signs of dodgy stifles I bent my energy to sorting him out , not chasing the breeder. 
It's sad but I think the pony should come first, money second. A big lesson learnt really. When I bought my lad I knew the risks and I accepted them.

Wish the pony luck.


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## ycbm (26 November 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Indeed you cannot return goods that have been damaged ! However the OP is so very sure this is not the case .

As for the transport question its irrelevant as a contract to purchase already existed. however they would have had the protection of not having paid for it if it came off hopping lame.
		
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It is not irrelevant. If this pony does not have congenital wobblers or EHV, then the next most likely explanation is that it damaged itself in the trailer.

If the buyer already owned it at that time, then the risk was hers and not the seller's, and she would have no right of return. 

She might try to sue the transporter, who in this case was the previous owner, but horses hurt themselves in transport frequently, so that would be a difficult one.


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## millikins (26 November 2016)

For those saying just return it, surely transporting a pony who falls over when attempting to drink is totally unfit to travel and the buyer would leave themselves open to prosecution under welfare laws?


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## charlie76 (26 November 2016)

The new owner can't just return it as the vendor is refusing to give a refund despite being down the sales of goods act which is 100% relevant to her. If the pony is returned the vendor then has the pony and the money. The second vet will hopefully shed some light so things can move forward


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## southerncomfort (26 November 2016)

Allowing the vendors vet to examine sounds like a good move to me. 

Fingers crossed it's something fixable.


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## charlie76 (26 November 2016)

southerncomfort said:



			Allowing the vendors vet to examine sounds like a good move to me. 

Fingers crossed it's something fixable.
		
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I think so too, if the vendors vet thinks it was pre exisiting than that will hopefully put an end to it, if not then she will cross that bridge when she comes to it.


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## Goldenstar (26 November 2016)

EKW said:



			I know of plenty of people who insist on delivering horses/ponies if they aren't going too far away so they can check out where they are going and so long as no money has changed hands a that point they can leave the pony in the truck and turn around back home if they don't like what they see.
		
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This is exactly what I did when I sold one of my hombreds I drove her to the other end of the country just to be easy in my mind .
However at the first sniff of them being unhappy with her I would have had her back home .


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## stormox (26 November 2016)

I too would deliver- and have done- just to see the place and make  sure horse arrives safely. If you have a conclusive diagnosis from your own vet, I think vendors vet is a good idea, and if they say it wasn't pre-existing  I should agree with seller that an independants vets decision is final.  but how much is all this costing? Probably more than the pony's worth.


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## Red-1 (26 November 2016)

As I understand it, the new owner has to prove that the fault was pre existing, not damaged by them. For this they surely need a diagnosis? 

I believe the distance selling regs are a bit more far reaching, but they would not apply as the buyer went to view. 

I think it is significant that the pony was there for a week without showing symptoms, but now they are unmissable. 

I like the idea that CCTV covered the pony at all times, but doubt that someone has watched all the CCTV footage in real time, or that it was clear enough to try to "prove" that the horse did not twist/pull itself in some way.

I am also one who delivers if I sell for peace of mind. I need to see the yard is as I would hope, and if not I would take the horse home and refund the vetting fee. Nothing dodgy in that at all. 

Sometimes there is just bad luck.


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## ycbm (26 November 2016)

millikins said:



			For those saying just return it, surely transporting a pony who falls over when attempting to drink is totally unfit to travel and the buyer would leave themselves open to prosecution under welfare laws?
		
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Yes, and I think the act is already being broken. There appears to be a pony who is getting neither diagnosis nor treatment while the buyer argues with the seller over who is responsible 

In my book, you take a pony into your care YOU are responsible.


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## charlie76 (26 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			Yes, and I think the act is already being broken. There appears to be a pony who is getting neither diagnosis nor treatment while the buyer argues with the seller over who is responsible 

In my book, you take a pony into your care YOU are responsible.
		
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This is very unfair on the new owner, the pony has not got any worse, the new owner got HER vet the second some thing was found to be amiss, she contacted the vendor who stated that she wanted her own vet to see the pony and that she would arrange a time, the new owner has been waiting for this to be arranged which is very difficult when the vendor ignores all method of communication! The new owner has been in constant contact with her own vet letting her know how the pony is and the original vet is happy that the pony is not any worse or suffering at all. Eventually the vendor has replied and the vet is due today I believe. So please, without actually seeing the pony, accuse people of neglect because that is simply untrue, you cannot state things like that without being involved on a day to day basis. 
I would just like to also point out that the vet was originally called as the pony was bilaterally lame not because the yard or the owner thought it was a neuro issue, the vet said that's what she thought it could be.
The new owner is doing the best by the pony but it also has to be remembered that this pony, due to the fact the issues were noted in the first two weeks of insurance is not insured for any of this or any xrays,mri scans etc so to be honest she could , and would be better off, just putting it down and cutting her losses to save her the expense but she she is happy to wait until the Vendors vet has been to give the pony the best chance and to see if it can be solved.
The vendor wanted HER vet to look at it now not the purchasers so the Vendor is the one who has been delaying action.

I also think, and I wasn't going to say this, as I don't think its relevant but following the untrue accusations of neglect I will, the pony is on a full livery on a large , competition and racing yard where race horses of high value and quality are bred. The staff that manage the yard deal with and take sole care of high value animals from well known trainers and owners so no animal on the premises would ever be neglected. The yard is also an over flow yard for two of the major vet practices in the area taking in horses when the vet has no room, therefore any one of the vets in the area would dispute any suggestion that the pony is not being cared for correctly. There is a vet in the yard frequently who has cast an eye over and has checked the pony is fine , however , the owner is sticking with one vet as to not confuse the situation any further. I would have not mentioned this but the suggestion that the welfare act is being compromised with the pony is a step to far I'm afraid.


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## Beausmate (26 November 2016)

I  saw a very nice two-year-old slip in its stable and hit the wall.  It walked away fine, went back in the field looking ok and a week later it was pts with wobblers so severe it could no longer get up.  The pony could have been injured before leaving the vendors yard, or during transport and walked off the lorry looking just fine, only to deteriorate later on.  


The dealer that sold me my new horse wanted to deliver her to see where she was going, despite it being a 600 mile round trip and was a disappointed that she didn't.


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## ycbm (26 November 2016)

Sorry Charlie, but the person who is delaying getting a diagnosis and treatment for this pony is the buyer.

It is possible that it has, for example, fractured a vertebra in the neck that is impinging on the spinal cord. Bute to stop the inflammation from doing any permanent damage to the spinal cord, and immobility in a neck cradle to stabilise the fracture might save this ponies life. By the time anyone bothers to get a diagnosis, it could be too late.

It's my opinion, for what it's worth, that the original vet has been negligent in diagnosing this pony with a pre existing condition without any investigations as to the causes of the symptoms. . Ataxia is caused by many things, and pre existing ataxia doesn't normally start after someone's had a pony for a week.


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## popsdosh (26 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			Sorry Charlie, but the person who is delaying getting a diagnosis and treatment for this pony is the buyer.

It is possible that it has, for example, fractured a vertebra in the neck that is impinging on the spinal cord. Bute to stop the inflammation from doing any permanent damage to the spinal cord, and immobility in a neck cradle to stabilise the fracture might save this ponies life. By the time anyone bothers to get a diagnosis, it could be too late.

It's my opinion, for what it's worth, that the original vet has been negligent in diagnosing this pony with a pre existing condition without any investigations as to the causes of the symptoms. . Ataxia is caused by many things, and pre existing ataxia doesn't normally start after someone's had a pony for a week.
		
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Why are we so obsessed by a neck injury its highly unlikely .


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## popsdosh (26 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			The new owner can't just return it as the vendor is refusing to give a refund despite being down the sales of goods act which is 100% relevant to her. If the pony is returned the vendor then has the pony and the money. The second vet will hopefully shed some light so things can move forward
		
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At the very least the owner needs to put in writing that they are cancelling the purchase under the 2015 consumer act within the 30 days . They can always argue the toss about whether their a trader or not afterwards and if they say their not it will most likely end up in court. However as I stated earlier if that cannot be proved it doesnt matter if it was pre existing or not you will have no right to a refund just relying on the vendors goodwill ! Morally they should ,legally they dont.


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## charlie76 (26 November 2016)

Do you honestly not think the vet would have insisted on an X ray immediately if she thought that the pony might be suffering or are you also questioning the vets opinion too?


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## ester (26 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			We got the vet who confirmed that the pony was bilaterally lame behind, she agreed that if it had been one leg then of course it could have happened since delivery but not both hind legs. She watched her walk and trot up and also noted a peculiar drunk action. She also walked down hill strangely and looked very uncoordinated on the lunge. The vet did some wobbler tests and the pony showed obvious signs of a neurological problem. She fell on me in the tail pulling test and walked all over her own feet when turning a tight circle, she also struggled to walk down hill with her head up. Classic neuro signs. Our vet advised that the pony has a long standing issue that hadn't just come on.
		
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Given that the vet said that the pony couldn't possibly have become lame on both hinds since delivery and without any diagnostics has concluded that it is clearly a long standing issue I think much of this thread is already questioning their opinion no?


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## ycbm (26 November 2016)

charlie76 said:



			Do you honestly not think the vet would have insisted on an X ray immediately if she thought that the pony might be suffering or are you also questioning the vets opinion too?
		
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Too right I'm questioning the vets opinion.

Having owned a wobbler myself I'm pretty well placed to know what this poor pony isn't getting that my own horse did.

'Suffering' is not the issue. Failing to receive treatment, or even a proper diagnosis, is the issue.


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## stormox (26 November 2016)

ester said:



			Given that the vet said that the pony couldn't possibly have become lame on both hinds since delivery and without any diagnostics has concluded that it is clearly a long standing issue I think much of this thread is already questioning their opinion no?
		
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I agree - if the pony had fallen and twisted her pelvis she could easily appear lame on both hinds.  I am sure if it is as bad as you say, it would have been noticed when the pony walked off the transport.


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## ycbm (26 November 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Why are we so obsessed by a neck injury its highly unlikely .
		
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It isn't highly unlikely. Wobblers is common. A pony who falls in a trailer while tied up could easily break a neck  vertebra.


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## popsdosh (26 November 2016)

What was the Pony wormed with? Everything you have described are classic symptoms of wormer toxicity. Im afraid many times I have come across those that think a whole tube surely cant do any harm and must be more effective and lets face it who wants to mess around with whats left. Guess your not likely to get them to own up to it now? classically it starts with lethargy ,move onto uncoordination and ataxia. Did anybody ask if it had been done recently before it arrived as it will still be in the system for up to a month.


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## stormox (26 November 2016)

Any particular wormers to beware of,Popsdosh?


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## popsdosh (26 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			It isn't highly unlikely. Wobblers is common. A pony who falls in a trailer while tied up could easily break a neck  vertebra.
		
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Depends on your definition of common I suppose certainly less likely in a pony! I think misdiagnosed quite regularly if not actually x rayed ,it seems to have become a default dignosis for horses showing certain signs. I recently was told categorically that a horse I bred was a wobbler however on dissection (hunt kennels) had a fractured pelvis that it most likely would have recovered from


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## popsdosh (26 November 2016)

stormox said:



			Any particular wormers to beware of,Popsdosh?
		
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Any of the ivermectins with moxydectin being pretty potent. I have seen it a few times in cattle that were dosed twice by mistake they have now put blue dye in some pour ons to help show animals already dosed


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## ycbm (26 November 2016)

popsdosh said:



			Depends on your definition of common I suppose certainly less likely in a pony! I think misdiagnosed quite regularly if not actually x rayed ,it seems to have become a default dignosis for horses showing certain signs. I recently was told categorically that a horse I bred was a wobbler however on dissection (hunt kennels) had a fractured pelvis that it most likely would have recovered from
		
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Well it's easy enough to check Popsdosh, all you need is x rays of the neck. I take it you didn't own the horse put down without neck x rays at the time? If you did I'd sue the vet who told you it was incurable!


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## popsdosh (26 November 2016)

ycbm said:



			Well it's easy enough to check Popsdosh, all you need is x rays of the neck. I take it you didn't own the horse put down without neck x rays at the time? If you did I'd sue the vet who told you it was incurable!
		
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No but it caused a bit of grief for me in the short term ,they had paid a good whack for an unbroken 3yo luckily they came back and bought a full sibling with the insurance money. Not sure they ever knew the total story.


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## chaps89 (20 March 2017)

I know this is an old, and was a somewhat contentious, thread, but OP I hope you don't mind me asking what the outcome was on this one? Hope it all worked out ok for those involved in the end.


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## Mazerati (20 March 2017)

I have just been through something similar. Viewed a horse in Belgium, saw him loose, trotted on the hard and on a circle etc no issue. Vetting and X-rays done. Arrived in U.K. And lunged him, straight away saw bi lateral (I won't say lameness) but something not 100%. Spoke to seller who was private and basically wouldn't do anything. Got him backed and riding away over the next week and a half. Tripping, stiffness, lameness etc. I knew right away wobblers confirmed a week later by the AHT. Luckily he was insured so claimed LOU and had him shot. I never contacted the seller after my first time. At the end of the day I bought it and it was vetted! It's just one of those things. Luckily he was insured else 10k would have gone right down the drain. He was 3 rising 4. If insured maybe make a claim if not cut your losses


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## ycbm (20 March 2017)

What was your horse's diagnosis Mazerati?  I'm surprised you got loss of use on him if he was born with malformed vertebrae, or had an old injury, because they'd be pre existing conditions. 

Mine was the classic C3/4 malformation but he was fine until it went suddenly in a schooling session when he was ten. He'd also passed a five star vet when he was four. Your seller didn't necessarily know.


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## Mazerati (20 March 2017)

ycbm said:



			What was your horse's diagnosis Mazerati?  I'm surprised you got loss of use on him if he was born with malformed vertebrae, or had an old injury, because they'd be pre existing conditions. 

Mine was the classic C3/4 malformation but he was fine until it went suddenly in a schooling session when he was ten. He'd also passed a five star vet when he was four. Your seller didn't necessarily know.
		
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To be honest he showed symptoms the day I got him. He was cheap for his ability and breeding so I feel that they knew something was not right, but that doesn't matter really now. He had an awful lot going on with C5,6&7. Enlargement, arthritis. If you pm me I can Facebook you the full report on him as its quite interesting. KBIS were really good, he was only just within the allowence for a claim and they never questioned anything. I would have been in a mess if I had lost that amount of money on him!


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## ycbm (20 March 2017)

You were a bit lucky it wasn't the standard C3/4, I think. Less certain that it was pre existing, for the insurers.  I was told there are a lot of congenital wobblers doing dressage because it gives them a huge trot, like mine had. I don't do Facebook, I'd never sleep!


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## Mazerati (20 March 2017)

ycbm said:



			You were a bit lucky it wasn't the standard C3/4, I think. Less certain that it was pre existing, for the insurers.  I was told there are a lot of congenital wobblers doing dressage because it gives them a huge trot, like mine had. I don't do Facebook, I'd never sleep!
		
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No problem! I don't know how else to send it over. Yes the vet at AHT thinks it might be why he was a freak jumping. Sadly his walk trot canter was unfunctional but he could still come down to a 1.50 fence and give it 2ft. I did think I got a bargain to be honest, clearly that's why! Live and learn


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## shirl62 (20 March 2017)

Having just waded through this thread I hope that the poor horse has had some treatment or humanely PTS to end its suffering. The horse's welfare should have been priority, the legal rights or wrongs were of secondary concern.

Shirl


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## Flyermc (22 March 2017)

Was the horse OK?


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