# Numpty questions about trailers ...



## smurf (17 September 2011)

I have a large HGV lorry, but during the winter I am often out BSJA or a lesson with just one horse so I want a trailer for short local day trips with one horse.

I have a Honda CRV so not a huge 4x4 but good for about 1.75 tons.

I've just borrowed a 505 Ifor Williams and my 16.2hh older horse was fine but my baby was not. He's good to travel but never been in a trailer, and he's 17.1 but 7/8th TB so more tall than HUGE. He went in and out fine but was too cramped and his ears touched the roof etc

Other than a 510 Ifor Williams what else could I buy?

Don't want to spend a fortune as it's just an 'extra' to save the lorry.

So, sorry for the ramblings, suggestions for a trailer to carry one 17.1hh and to pull with a CRV


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## CrazyMare (17 September 2011)

I really dislike Ifor Williams - one of mine HATES them, and she is only 13.1h so its not a space issue.

I have a Bateson Ascot, and it gives my ponies a fabulous ride, but my OH's 17.1h TB also fits in quite happily. His previous owner had one, and he went hunting in it weekly.

ETA - OH's horse is huge/tall but not huge/wide - He is about as wide as a razor blade....He is long though, but fits well.


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## smurf (17 September 2011)

Ooh, looks good, what I really like about this one (and hate about the Ifor) is for one horse you want to travel it on the drivers side - cos of road camber, but the Ifor the front ramp is on the right so it's a really tight turn, but the Bateson it's on the left so easier for them to sweep out on a gentle curve. 

So where do I get a second hand one?


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## only_me (17 September 2011)

Cheval liberte trailers also have a front ramp on the left


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## LadyRascasse (17 September 2011)

the only thing you would legally able to tow with a 1.75 mam is a single trailer. cheval liberte's have good headroom.


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## smurf (17 September 2011)

LadyRascasse said:



			the only thing you would legally able to tow with a 1.75 mam is a single trailer. cheval liberte's have good headroom.
		
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How does that work? A Ifor 510 has an unladen weight of 1000kg so as long as my horse is under 750kg then I can tow them both with a 4x4 that has a towing capacity of 1750kg


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## OneInAMillion (17 September 2011)

smurf said:



			How does that work? A Ifor 510 has an unladen weight of 1000kg so as long as my horse is under 750kg then I can tow them both with a 4x4 that has a towing capacity of 1750kg
		
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It isn't that simple as the trailers are plated with a certain weight which for an iFor is something like 2700kg, so your car isn't legal to pull it because it is based on how much weight the trailer can physically carry


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## perfect11s (17 September 2011)

OneInAMillion said:



			It isn't that simple as the trailers are plated with a certain weight which for an iFor is something like 2700kg, so your car isn't legal to pull it because it is based on how much weight the trailer can physically carry
		
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 Rubish !!!! unless you havent got a pre1997 licence or taken a trailer test,   however I would say not a good idea to try and tow a 510 IW with a small car like a crv it will be horrible  you realy need a big something otherwise it will push you around and also kill the clutch/transmission  sooner rather than later  yes ive towed both the bateson ascots and 510 iw and the bateson is a better trailer by miles lighter and tows easly  hope this helps


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## ROG (17 September 2011)

OneInAMillion said:



			It isn't that simple as the trailers are plated with a certain weight which for an iFor is something like 2700kg, so your car isn't legal to pull it because it is based on how much weight the trailer can physically carry
		
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INCORRECT!! - that is a MYTH put out by those that do not know the laws

There is no law which states that the MAM of a trailer cannot exceed the towing capacity of the vehicle towing it

There is a law which states that the maximum MAM a B category vehicle can tow is 3500 kgs

EDIT & ADD - looks like the two of us said the same thing at about the same time - LOL


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## becca1305 (17 September 2011)

Oneinamillion is correct I do believe. Your car has to be legal to tow the legal max allowed weight of the trailer regardless of the weight you actually have in the trailer. I looked it up on the gov website when looking at what I could tow with my silly post 1997 licence but regardless of when you passed your car test that rule applies, and post 97(?) licence is even more complicated. hmm thats strange cant find it now :S could have sworn that was the rule tho I remember reading it! *confused face*


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## applestroodle (17 September 2011)

If the above was true surely there would be lots of people towing trailers illegally... Only this morning I was behind a freelander (would have thought roughly same towing weight as crv! ) towing a if505 with two large horses in the back, two passengers & boot full of stuff!!! It was struggling a little on the hills right enough!! I towed an iw510 with my parents frontera & one horse for a while very happily.


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## CrazyMare (17 September 2011)

smurf said:



			So where do I get a second hand one?
		
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Try Ebay?

I got mine via word of mouth....8/9 years ago, they do hold their value well though.


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## perfect11s (17 September 2011)

becca1305 said:



			Oneinamillion is correct I do believe. Your car has to be legal to tow the legal max allowed weight of the trailer regardless of the weight you actually have in the trailer. I looked it up on the gov website when looking at what I could tow with my silly post 1997 licence but regardless of when you passed your car test that rule applies, and post 97(?) licence is even more complicated. hmm thats strange cant find it now :S could have sworn that was the rule tho I remember reading it! *confused face*
		
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 NO  oneinamillion is totaly wrong sorry !!!!


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## applestroodle (17 September 2011)

P.s  there is much more room at the front in a 510 than the 505 which makes the sweep out much much easier, won't feel as tight!!


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## smurf (17 September 2011)

Arghhh!!!!!

Am about to scrap the whole idea and stick with my gas guzzling HGV?

How can I (pre 97 license) holder and HGV license holder be not allowed to tow a trailer and a horse but I can drive an 18ton lorry?


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## Noodlejaffa (17 September 2011)

We've got a 510 to run around in (not getting another wagon til the spring) and we looked long and hard about what to tow with. We've had them in the past and have always gone for Landrover (Disco or Defender - not Freelander!!!), Shogun or Jeep (which we currently have) as they had the towing capacity for what we wanted. We regularly tow two big horses.

Applestroodle - I'm afraid to say that there are an awful lot of people towing with things they shouldn't be. Having a pre-1997 licence (as I have since I'm ancient) or not, there is no excuse for not knowing what you're doing!


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## smurf (17 September 2011)

applestroodle said:



			P.s  there is much more room at the front in a 510 than the 505 which makes the sweep out much much easier, won't feel as tight!!
		
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I was holding on to BB for dear life  but OH said that he just fitted in the 505 in terms of breast to bum, but we had to put the breast bar on lowest setting so it fitted under his chest as no room at chest. But that he looked very cramped for his head and neck and also for height.

He travels so well in lorry not sure I want to risk upsetting him in order to save a few £££ on fuel. 

Applestroodle...as you know he's trying to pay for fuel himself with excellent bsja outings


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## rambling (17 September 2011)

I'm not in the UK but this whole legal towing thing is very difficult to get right. One would occasionally see really dangerous combinations on the road , best practice suggests that you should stay at about 75% of the towing capacity of the towing vehicle. 

This site is reasonably easy to understand and is for UK road users . It gives the towing capacity of a Freelander as 2000Kg  so not legally able to tow two decent sized horses and tack and certainly not best practise .

http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_weights_law.htm

Hope it helps.

Just editing this to add that the Gardai (police ) here have taken to impounding an outfit found towing illegally  if they bother to stop them ! I would NOT like that.


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## idx (18 September 2011)

smurf said:



			Arghhh!!!!!

Am about to scrap the whole idea and stick with my gas guzzling HGV?




			Personally I think you have hit the nail on the head here.  If you need to buy a tow car (and from what perfect 11's said you may feel more comfortable with a bigger towing vehicle) then surely you are better off just paying more for the fuel costs and using your lorry?

The majority of lorry overheads you have to pay (tax, test, insurance) no matter how often you drive it so using it MORE makes it better value for money.  yes the costs per mile maybe more than towing but you are already paying a lot to keep the lorry on the road so surely its better to use it?  UNLESS it is too big to be convenient to maneouvre the places you want to go?

This is before I start to get into the safety aspects of lorry vs trailer.  ALso I dont know if you have towed but driving a lorry you are "King of the Road" towing a trailer people will try to cut in etc and you may feel more vulnerable on motorways.  Given the choice I would drive the lorry.  Maybe your horse feels the same?
		
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## perfect11s (18 September 2011)

idx said:





smurf said:



			Arghhh!!!!!

Am about to scrap the whole idea and stick with my gas guzzling HGV?




			Personally I think you have hit the nail on the head here.  If you need to buy a tow car (and from what perfect 11's said you may feel more comfortable with a bigger towing vehicle) then surely you are better off just paying more for the fuel costs and using your lorry?

The majority of lorry overheads you have to pay (tax, test, insurance) no matter how often you drive it so using it MORE makes it better value for money.  yes the costs per mile maybe more than towing but you are already paying a lot to keep the lorry on the road so surely its better to use it?  UNLESS it is too big to be convenient to maneouvre the places you want to go?

This is before I start to get into the safety aspects of lorry vs trailer.  ALso I dont know if you have towed but driving a lorry you are "King of the Road" towing a trailer people will try to cut in etc and you may feel more vulnerable on motorways.  Given the choice I would drive the lorry.  Maybe your horse feels the same?
		
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 Yes I think these are good points for the OP, I can understand not wanting to take one horse  in a 18 tonner  having to fill in and use the tachograph etc and about 10 mpg,   mind hitching up a trailer would take longer then you get where your going and realise you've left that bridle, brush, jacket etc  you want in the lorry or there is no loo or it's filthy  you need to change or meet up with friends and havent got anywhere to sit and have a drink   ...
		
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## ROG (18 September 2011)

becca1305 said:



			Oneinamillion is correct I do believe. Your car has to be legal to tow the legal max allowed weight of the trailer regardless of the weight you actually have in the trailer. I looked it up on the gov website when looking at what I could tow with my silly post 1997 licence but regardless of when you passed your car test that rule applies, and post 97(?) licence is even more complicated. hmm thats strange cant find it now :S could have sworn that was the rule tho I remember reading it! *confused face*
		
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Post 1997 licence would be the towing rules for B only licence holders and the total MAM is used for those calculations

The rules for towing on a B+E licence are totally different and that is what is being discussed in this case

Don't worry - many, including some of the authorities and trainers, get the two confused


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## smurf (18 September 2011)

ROG said:



			Post 1997 licence would be the towing rules for B only licence holders and the total MAM is used for those calculations

The rules for towing on a B+E licence are totally different and that is what is being discussed in this case

Don't worry - many, including some of the authorities and trainers, get the two confused
		
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So what is the correct answer then for a post 97 B+E, and also I have a C1+E, and a C license?


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## applestroodle (18 September 2011)

Applestroodle...as you know he's trying to pay for fuel himself with excellent bsja outings [/QUOTE]

There is your answer Smurf just keep winning and use the lorry!!!


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## meesha (18 September 2011)

I have towed quite happily with a freelander - took one horse in an ifor 505 - he weighed about 600 so was towing just under 1600 - the only time I struggled was on steep grassy fields uphill and once on a steep hardcore track through woods when had to stop on steep slope - we did once or twice tow 2 and I know we were overweight but we stayed at 30 mph max and stayed on flat roads (it was moving my 2 to new field) wouldnt do it any further than I did though (5 miles)

Would be worth looking at the Bateson Ascot or Deauville - the deauville only weights 860 and has really good head height 7ft 3 and takes up to 17hh


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## perfect11s (18 September 2011)

smurf said:



			So what is the correct answer then for a post 97 B+E, and also I have a C1+E, and a C license?
		
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 Um I might be wrong on this so dont take it  as fact  but I think = B+E is car and trailer  , C1+E is a small lorry towing a trailer ,and C is a rigid HGV !!!!


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## sallybush (18 September 2011)

The type and age of license you hold is completely irrelevant; the plated/gross weight of the trailer must be equal or less to the towing capacity of the tow vehicle.  It doesn't matter if you have a pre or post '97 license, B or B+E, C+E etc, the law is that the tow vehicle must be capable of towing the trailer fully loaded.  The post-97 licenses just add further restrictions.

I've recently done B+E, C and C+E tests with various instructors, driving courses through work, and very clear briefings from my employer, (who operates one of the largest vehicle fleets in the UK) that the trailer must be suited to the vehicle fully loaded.  If you look at many of the vans used by utilities, they will have decals on the rear doors stating '2200kg MAX GROSS TRAILER WEIGHT'.

It may not be 'fair', and many people are inadvertently breaking the law, but its pretty clear.  If you get pulled by VOSA or the police (like they were at Hickstead last month) this is how they will determine whether your outfit is safe and legal.

What you can do, is ask the trailer manufacturer to provide a new plate for the trailer.  So if you have a 2700kg trailer but your car can only tow 2200kg, you change the plate, which just involves drilling a couple of rivets out, fit the new 2200kg plate, and as long as the trailer plus horse/tack/water doesn't exceed this new lower weight, you are perfectly legal.  We did this with our Equi-trek, going from 3000kg to 2800kg so we could legally tow with a van.


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## perfect11s (19 September 2011)

sallybush said:



			The type and age of license you hold is completely irrelevant; the plated/gross weight of the trailer must be equal or less to the towing capacity of the tow vehicle.  It doesn't matter if you have a pre or post '97 license, B or B+E, C+E etc, the law is that the tow vehicle must be capable of towing the trailer fully loaded.  The post-97 licenses just add further restrictions.

I've recently done B+E, C and C+E tests with various instructors, driving courses through work, and very clear briefings from my employer, (who operates one of the largest vehicle fleets in the UK) that the trailer must be suited to the vehicle fully loaded.  If you look at many of the vans used by utilities, they will have decals on the rear doors stating '2200kg MAX GROSS TRAILER WEIGHT'.

It may not be 'fair', and many people are inadvertently breaking the law, but its pretty clear.  If you get pulled by VOSA or the police (like they were at Hickstead last month) this is how they will determine whether your outfit is safe and legal.

What you can do, is ask the trailer manufacturer to provide a new plate for the trailer.  So if you have a 2700kg trailer but your car can only tow 2200kg, you change the plate, which just involves drilling a couple of rivets out, fit the new 2200kg plate, and as long as the trailer plus horse/tack/water doesn't exceed this new lower weight, you are perfectly legal.  We did this with our Equi-trek, going from 3000kg to 2800kg so we could legally tow with a van.
		
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Sorry but you are totaly and utterly wrong  small trailers are not Plated ....under 3500 kg they show manufctures design weights  as a guide Asumming the person has the corect licence all that matters is the actual weight
you are towing and whether it is inside the recomended limits of the vehicle manufacturer
Its about time admin put up a sticky thread with the true facts to stop idiots posting misinfomation every time there is a post about towing ...... oh and the only way you can be "done" is if they weigh your outfit and it is over the recomended weights then they could proscute for useing an unsafe/overloaded vehicle ......


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## wench (19 September 2011)

Trailers are plated though!

Except mines that old its fallen off!


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## smurf (19 September 2011)

perfect11s said:



			Um I might be wrong on this so dont take it  as fact  but I think = B+E is car and trailer  , C1+E is a small lorry towing a trailer ,and C is a rigid HGV !!!!
		
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Yes, I know what kind of license I have I'm trying to find out what I can tow


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## Llanali (19 September 2011)

Plated for design!!! 

Perfect 11s absolutely correct!! If towing with a pre 97 license- tow what you like as long as car can legally tow what you actually have on the back! 

Post 97, without taking trailer test, tow only if your trailer mam is less than car towing weight, and whole thing less than 3.5 tonnes. 

Post 97 with test, tow as pre 97 without. 


Part of the plating and mam bit people get so wrong and spout is also to do with artic tractor units and trailers I do believe. 

I think Juno, perfect 11s, mike 007, me And a few other spend our lives correcting this in hho!


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## perfect11s (19 September 2011)

Llanali said:



			Plated for design!!! 

Perfect 11s absolutely correct!! If towing with a pre 97 license- tow what you like as long as car can legally tow what you actually have on the back! 

Post 97, without taking trailer test, tow only if your trailer mam is less than car towing weight, and whole thing less than 3.5 tonnes. 

Post 97 with test, tow as pre 97 without. 


Part of the plating and mam bit people get so wrong and spout is also to do with artic tractor units and trailers I do believe. 

I think Juno, perfect 11s, mike 007, me And a few other spend our lives correcting this in hho!
		
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Yes I would love to see a sticky trailer post from admin that sets out the facts so we dont have this constant stream of suposition guesses BS  and urban myths every time someone  asks for a little help about towing .... the plating and mam thing is getting a bit old ..


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## perfect11s (19 September 2011)

smurf said:



			Yes, I know what kind of license I have I'm trying to find out what I can tow 

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 If you took your car driving test before 97 OR you have taken a trailer test then you can tow any trailer  that weighs less than the towing capacity of your car for instance   say car can tow 1800kg  your trailer could carry 2000kg  and weighs 800kg empty  and you put a horse in that weighs 600kg and 200kg of tack, feed and water  total weight on the car is 1600kg thats ok you can trundle down the road with the  confidence  that comes with   useing your motorvehicle lawfully ... , hope this helps ...


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## smurf (19 September 2011)

perfect11s said:



			If you took your car driving test before 97 OR you have taken a trailer test then you can tow any trailer  that weighs less than the towing capacity of your car for instance   say car can tow 1800kg  your trailer could carry 2000kg  and weighs 800kg empty  and you put a horse in that weighs 600kg and 200kg of tack, feed and water  total weight on the car is 1600kg thats ok you can trundle down the road with the  confidence  that comes with   useing your motorvehicle lawfully ... , hope this helps ...
		
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Yeahhh - someone who seems to know what they are talking about 
Many thanks


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## ROG (19 September 2011)

perfect11s said:



			Yes I would love to see a sticky trailer post from admin that sets out the facts so we dont have this constant stream of suposition guesses BS  and urban myths every time someone  asks for a little help about towing .... the plating and mam thing is getting a bit old .. 

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I did this - http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=475968 - is that the sort of thing you mean?

Some more posts I did recently on this subject - http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=96058


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## sallybush (20 September 2011)

perfect11s said:



			Sorry but you are totaly and utterly wrong  small trailers are not Plated ....under 3500 kg they show manufctures design weights  as a guide Asumming the person has the corect licence all that matters is the actual weight
you are towing and whether it is inside the recomended limits of the vehicle manufacturer
Its about time admin put up a sticky thread with the true facts to stop idiots posting misinfomation every time there is a post about towing ...... oh and the only way you can be "done" is if they weigh your outfit and it is over the recomended weights then they could proscute for useing an unsafe/overloaded vehicle ......
		
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I'm not going to argue over the points I've already made, except to clarify that by a plate, I mean the manufacturers VIN plate.

I will also point out that the trailer manufacturers design weight (on the VIN plate) is not a guide, its illegal to exceed this weight.

And I think 'idiot' is a bit strong!


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## perfect11s (20 September 2011)

sallybush said:



			I'm not going to argue over the points I've already made, except to clarify that by a plate, I mean the manufacturers VIN plate.

I will also point out that the trailer manufacturers design weight (on the VIN plate) is not a guide, its illegal to exceed this weight.

And I think 'idiot' is a bit strong!
		
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 Sorry  for calling you an idiot..  But this isnt a game and if you post misinfomation about something as important as towing it isnt helpfull esp to people who are confused already and are just trying to find out the facts so they can tow safely and legaly..  .... oh and no one is saying you should or can exceed design weights, or capacitys never have and hopefully never will!!


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## ROG (21 September 2011)

sallybush said:



			The type and age of license you hold is completely irrelevant; the plated/gross weight of the trailer must be equal or less to the towing capacity of the tow vehicle.  It doesn't matter if you have a pre or post '97 license, B or B+E, C+E etc, the law is that the tow vehicle must be capable of towing the trailer fully loaded.  The post-97 licenses just add further restrictions.

I've recently done B+E, C and C+E tests with various instructors, driving courses through work, and very clear briefings from my employer, (who operates one of the largest vehicle fleets in the UK) that the trailer must be suited to the vehicle fully loaded.  If you look at many of the vans used by utilities, they will have decals on the rear doors stating '2200kg MAX GROSS TRAILER WEIGHT'.

It may not be 'fair', and many people are inadvertently breaking the law, but its pretty clear.  If you get pulled by VOSA or the police (like they were at Hickstead last month) this is how they will determine whether your outfit is safe and legal.

What you can do, is ask the trailer manufacturer to provide a new plate for the trailer.  So if you have a 2700kg trailer but your car can only tow 2200kg, you change the plate, which just involves drilling a couple of rivets out, fit the new 2200kg plate, and as long as the trailer plus horse/tack/water doesn't exceed this new lower weight, you are perfectly legal.  We did this with our Equi-trek, going from 3000kg to 2800kg so we could legally tow with a van.
		
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MAX GROSS TRAILER WEIGHT means the Max the vehicle can tow by adding the actual weight of the trailer with the actual weight of the load on it
If it said MAX MAM TRAILER WEIGHT then that would be totally different

The only reason to downplate a trailer would be to make it fit in with the towing rules for a B licence where the MAM of a trailer must no more than the unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle

Any trailer plated at 3500 kgs or under can be towed by a B class vehicle on a B+E licence but that trailer must not exceed any towing capacity/actual/GROSS TOWING/GROSS TRAILER WEIGHT listed for that vehicle

I will agree that whoever used the word GROSS is likely to confuse many as the MAM is also the GVW = the GROSS VEHICLE WEIGHT and saying GROSS TRAILER WEIGHT looks very similar

sallybush, I can see where you could easily get the wrong end of the stick so I will not condemn you for that but I will berate whoever wrote it in the first place

ADD - your employer needs to investigate what they currently believe because THERE IS NO LAW which states that the MAM/GVW of a trailer cannot be more that the listed towing capacity

The resident VOSA member on this site. geebee45, has also confirmed what I have said in a post done on here within the last few weeks

If someone tells you something is illegal then ask them for the law that says that


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## lannerch (21 September 2011)

I am non the wiser to the trailer laws reading this post, that said I have heard of having to replate a trailer to allow it to be towed safely wit a pre 97 licence! 

Can anyone find a link that confirms or otherwise who is correct?


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## lannerch (21 September 2011)

I have found this http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_weights_law.htm which does support sallybush will go and look for more


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## ROG (21 September 2011)

lannerch said:



			I am non the wiser to the trailer laws reading this post, that said I have heard of having to replate a trailer to allow it to be towed safely wit a pre 97 licence! 

Can anyone find a link that confirms or otherwise who is correct?
		
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What you need to ask for a is a law which states that something cannot be done or must be done

there are so many who misread the info given on websites that the above suggestion is the only true way


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## lannerch (21 September 2011)

This one supports the theory that it is the plaited max trailer weight that must fall within the vehicles towing capacity http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_weights_law.htm


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## ROG (21 September 2011)

lannerch said:



			I have found this http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_weights_law.htm which does support sallybush will go and look for more
		
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That link totally supports what I have said and not what sally said

The only bit of daft advice on it is where it says about downrating trailers - notice it does not say why anyone would need to




			X (combined weight of horses + unladen trailer weight) should be below or equal to trailer&#8217;s MAM

X (combined weight of horses + unladen trailer weight) should be below the towing vehicle&#8217;s max. towing capacity
		
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Where does it say the the MAM of the trailer must not exceed the towing capacity of the vehicle?


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## lannerch (21 September 2011)

Sorry wrong link on iPhone so cannot edit will go and get correct link


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## lannerch (21 September 2011)

http://www.armitagetrailers.com/trailerlaw.htm


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## ROG (21 September 2011)

lannerch said:



http://www.armitagetrailers.com/trailerlaw.htm

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From that site - 
Drivers Licence

Holders of driving licences issued before July 1996 and providing that they have Group A or if after 1990, category B, are entitled to drive a vehicle and trailer combination up to a maximum train weight of 8.25 tons.

Err max on a B+E licence would be 7.0 tonnes 3.5 vehicle and 3.5 trailer !!

They have gone into C1+E restricted without mentioning it - oh yeah - great site - NOT

Also from that site - 
Braked Trailers

 Although trailers with overrun brakes can weigh up to 3500kg gross, actual maximum weights are set by the specifications of the vehicle that is doing the towing. The law says you must not exceed the Gross Train Weight that the manufacturer has set for the towing vehicle. Look in the vehilce handbook or on a plate riveted to the vehicle to find this figure. You then have to subtract the weight of the towing vehicle (including fuel, driver, passengers, luggage or cargo) from the Gross Train Weight. The amount you are left with is the maximum theoretically-possible weight of trailer that can be towed legally. REMEMBER, the law does not care whether the trailer is empty or packed to the roof with bricks, what counts is the plated gross vehicle weight of the trailer.

The last sentance is designed to confuse!!


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## perfect11s (21 September 2011)

lannerch said:



			I have found this http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_weights_law.htm which does  NOT support sallybush will go and look for more untill I find some tiny firm's web site in the back of beyond that does!!!!
		
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 edited for clarity!!!! Sorry couldnt resist!!!   now lets argue about black and white


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## ROG (21 September 2011)

What I like is when people say that the police or VOSA have prosecuted those towing trailers but fail to say exactly what law they were charged with

For weight issues they were likely to be prosecuted for exceeding the vehicle towing capacity, exceeding the trailer MAM weight, exceeding the gross train weight or for exceeding axles weights.

Strange that there has never been a listed case where a driver has been prosecuted where the trailer MAM exceeds the vehicle towing capacity - except for rumour of course!!


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## Shazzababs (21 September 2011)

I think that regardless of what the small print of the law says, if you want to be safe from confusion, and from worrying about whether you are overweight if you do X,Y or Z its probably best to make sure that your tow vehicle can to at least the maximum weigght of your tailer, as stated on its VIN plate, as common sense states that that will be the starting point of any conversation should you get pulled over or have an accident.

The Bateson Ascot has a max loaded weight of 2.3ton, so I would personally want to tow it with something with a capacity of at least 2.5ton.  Apart from the standard, Landy, Shogun 4x4 options you could also use a Kia Sorento, VW Tiguan or Hyundai Santa Fe (new model).


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## lannerch (21 September 2011)

I really was on my iPhone and really could not edit. I am not biased either way am just interested to know what the law really is although it does not matter whatever the case I tow in the law an iw510 with a landcruiset tow car so perfect11s I cannot agree with your edit!

Fully agree with the post above though


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## becca1305 (21 September 2011)

could we not ask H&H to put up a sticky containing the definitive laws for trailers? It is very confusing with even some trailer test companies putting incorrect info on their websites (whether through ignorance or to increase their business I'm not sure!). Naturally the easiest way to be confident is to do as Shazzababs says but this may not be possible for everyone (eg already own potential towing vehicle etc.).


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## perfect11s (21 September 2011)

Shazzababs said:



			I think that regardless of what the small print of the law says, if you want to be safe from confusion, and from worrying about whether you are overweight if you do X,Y or Z its probably best to make sure that your tow vehicle can to at least the maximum weigght of your tailer, as stated on its VIN plate, as common sense states that that will be the starting point of any conversation should you get pulled over or have an accident.

The Bateson Ascot has a max loaded weight of 2.3ton, so I would personally want to tow it with something with a capacity of at least 2.5ton.  Apart from the standard, Landy, Shogun 4x4 options you could also use a Kia Sorento, VW Tiguan or Hyundai Santa Fe (new model).
		
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 We are talking about the law  and what is legal  yes its a good idea to have some  extra in hand  for instance I used to tow my batson ascot wth a ford pickup that was rated by the manufacta to tow just over 5 tons !!! however if you only carry one small horse or a kids pony there is no reason why you need to have the full towing capacity and nothing wrong in the eyes of the law , like has been said to the point of exhaustion in the event of being stopped or involved in an accident you may  get weighed and    then this 
 will be used as evedence by the police /vosa to convict you if you're belived to be driving an unsafe combination ..... not  guess work!!!! ....


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## lannerch (21 September 2011)

So you say perfect11s but we are yet to establish what the law actually is as several interpretations appear different!

Why does anyone replate a trailer ?


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## perfect11s (21 September 2011)

lannerch said:



			So you say perfect11s but we are yet to establish what the law actually is as several interpretations appear different!

Why does anyone replate a trailer ?
		
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 because as has been said if you only have a post 1997 car licence you are only legaly allowed to use a combination  of 3500 kg train weight  otherwise its a totaly pointless exercise...


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## Llanali (21 September 2011)

Trailers are replayed if you want to drive it on a b license- ie before 97 but without a test. This is the instance where trailer max weight must be less than unladen car and whole train less than 3.5 tonnes. Trailers are downplayed to allow people to tow without a trailer test or a pre 97 test.


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## lannerch (21 September 2011)

Am I reading this wrong then really trying to get my head round it if the mam weight is the maximum authorised mass ( ie trailers max weight ) then this is the weight that has to be taken  into consideration accouding to the dvla http://m.direct.gov.uk/syndicationC...21e2adb4f3eabf9201109211515&param=DG_10013073


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## smiffyimp (21 September 2011)

Whether the car can pull the weight is only one cause for concern. Can the car STOP the trailer should something go wrong. IM(humble)O 4x4's should pull trailers cars should not!

I have just traded my Nissan Navara and 505 in for a 7.5 tonne. Been a few places now and done the calculations. Lorry is cheaper on fuel that the Nissan and trailer. Nicer and safer and I only travel 1 horse most of the time. If I were you i'd stick to your lorry


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## Llanali (21 September 2011)

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_10013073

This page.!

Firstly- the first paragraph is for B license- ie without a trailer test adn after 97. this is where all the bit about trailer and load being less than unladen car, adn whole thing being under 3.5 comes in...

Secondly, the bottom of the page.

Category B+E: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM towing trailers over 750kgs MAM

Category B+E allows vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM to be combined with trailers in excess of 750kgs MAM. In order to gain this entitlement new category B licence holders have to pass a further practical test for category B+E. There is no category B+E theory test. *For driver licensing purposes there are no vehicle/trailer weight ratio limits for category B+E.*

particularly this last!! It does not matter what your car CAN tow, it's what it IS towing. B+E is what you have either pre 97, or with a trailer test post 97.

better?


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## lannerch (21 September 2011)

Thanks 
It's like a foreign language lol no wonder there is so many different interpretations!
All the more reason for h@h to take up the gauntlet and clarify the subject once and for all!


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## Llanali (21 September 2011)

You're very welcome. It took me 3 hours on the phone to dvla / dsa about it to clarify once and for all.


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## ROG (21 September 2011)

Shazzababs said:



			I think that regardless of what the small print of the law says, if you want to be safe from confusion, and from worrying about whether you are overweight if you do X,Y or Z its probably best to make sure that your tow vehicle can to at least the maximum weight of your tailer, as stated on its VIN plate, as common sense states that that will be the starting point of any conversation should you get pulled over or have an accident.
		
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No harm in doing that if the extra cost and inconvenience of replating does not bother the driver

The authorities are still likely to have it weighed if they suspect any sort of overloading though and if it is overloaded then its a double whammy - overloading above the plated MAM weight and the vehicle towing capacity!!!!!


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## Llanali (21 September 2011)

Sorry, shazzababs, why on this earth should I pay to replate my trailer because the police will Start a conversation with a sentence relating to it?


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## ROG (21 September 2011)

Llanali said:



			*For driver licensing purposes there are no vehicle/trailer weight ratio limits for category B+E.*

particularly this last!! It does not matter what your car CAN tow, it's what it IS towing. B+E is what you have either pre 97, or with a trailer test post 97.

better?
		
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What it fails to mention is that 3.5 tonnes is the max plated trailer MAM for any vehicle of 3.5 tonnes or under nad I would have thought that info was pretty important !

A few real life examples on the .gov site would also have helped to clarify what they were saying


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## perfect11s (21 September 2011)

ROG said:



			What it fails to mention is that 3.5 tonnes is the max plated trailer MAM for any vehicle of 3.5 tonnes or under nad I would have thought that info was pretty important !

A few real life examples on the .gov site would also have helped to clarify what they were saying
		
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 OOps 3.5 on overrun brakes  higher is possible on air brakes!!!! for instance the fifth wheel co is making mini artic/gooseneck caravans and trailers and some of those are 4000kg they uprate the trainweight of pickups  to suit ...


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## ROG (21 September 2011)

perfect11s said:



			OOps 3.5 on overrun brakes  higher is possible on air brakes!!!! for instance the fifth wheel co is making mini artic/gooseneck caravans and trailers and some of those are 4000kg they uprate the trainweight of pickups  to suit ...
		
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Fair point but for the greater majority it would be 3.5 tonnes max


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## Llanali (21 September 2011)

I quite agree.... Clear as mud.


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## Luci07 (21 September 2011)

God. I tow and I am now totally confused! 

In my particular instance, as I like to keep it simple - I have the pre 97 license. My trailer is a Bateson Deaville (so around 950kg unladen). I chose a Jeep with a max towing capacity of 3.3 tonnes. The guideline (though not a legal requirement if I remember) was not to exceed 85% of the max towing capacity of the car. I have a 17 hand horse who can travels comfortably in the trailer and rough guide, he is around 700kg. I have tended to avoid taking 2 horses in my trailer purely because we have a mother of a hill to get back upto the yard and there is nothing I can find which can give any kind of formula to understand weight and hills!. My jeep has absolutely no problem pulling my trailer and horse..

I have sometimes thought about trading in trailer and jeep for a lorry just for the sheer convenience but the jeep a: has to cart all my dogs around b: is a complete godsend when we hit snow and bad weather. My other car remains dog and horse free, is clean and a joy to get into!! (and a lot cheaper on petrol!)


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## perfect11s (22 September 2011)

Luci07 said:



			God. I tow and I am now totally confused! 

In my particular instance, as I like to keep it simple - I have the pre 97 license. My trailer is a Bateson Deaville (so around 950kg unladen). I chose a Jeep with a max towing capacity of 3.3 tonnes. The guideline (though not a legal requirement if I remember) was not to exceed 85% of the max towing capacity of the car. I have a 17 hand horse who can travels comfortably in the trailer and rough guide, he is around 700kg. I have tended to avoid taking 2 horses in my trailer purely because we have a mother of a hill to get back upto the yard and there is nothing I can find which can give any kind of formula to understand weight and hills!. My jeep has absolutely no problem pulling my trailer and horse..

I have sometimes thought about trading in trailer and jeep for a lorry just for the sheer convenience but the jeep a: has to cart all my dogs around b: is a complete godsend when we hit snow and bad weather. My other car remains dog and horse free, is clean and a joy to get into!! (and a lot cheaper on petrol!)
		
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 If you have a very steep hill  however I would say you havent seen a steep hill on a narrow lane unless you are in devon or some parts of Wales !!!!! the manufactures recomended towing weights allows for a hill start  ,  if its very steep and tight you could use low range 4x4 just to climb the hill for extra power and grip then shift back into high range..... as for the confusion you are obviously well inside safe limits with what you are towing and the car ..and on your other point sadly as said before  morons are posting rubbish and mis infomation ..ROG is right as are others ,


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## lannerch (22 September 2011)

With the dvla written like a foreign language and the law open to interpretation the word Moran is a little harsh! 
Accourding to the dvla website anyone with a licence pre 97 can tow a trailer under 3.5k with any vehicle! But then I'm willing to bet that's not soley the law!

Don't worry luci07 you are perfectly legal what ever interpretation is correct


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## ROG (22 September 2011)

Luci07 said:



			The guideline (though not a legal requirement if I remember) was not to exceed 85% of the max towing capacity of the car.
		
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Not quite - the SAFETY (not legal) recommendation is never to have the ACTUAL weight of the trailer more than 85% of the ACTUAL weight of the car/van when towing

I bet that Jeep has a big manufacturer listed towing capacity ....


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## perfect11s (22 September 2011)

ROG said:



			Not quite - the SAFETY (not legal) recommendation is never to have the ACTUAL weight of the trailer more than 85% of the ACTUAL weight of the car/van when towing

I bet that Jeep has a big manufacturer listed towing capacity ....
		
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 Oh  dear and you were doing so well  ROG  !!!!!!!! It was some shite from the beardy yogurt kniters in the caravan club in a attempt to keep the mupets with the boxes of air shiny side up!!! It
has absolutly no place in the real world of towing as most tow vehicles weigh a lot less than what they are desighed to tow, From a landrover at about 2 tonnes rated at 3.5 a farm tractor about 3 times its weight and   artic tractor unit  well you just go and tell mr or Ms trucker they can only tow six tons not Sixty when they are about to load up a big excavator !!!!LOL   and how would you surgest someone tows two big horses???


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## ROG (22 September 2011)

perfect11s said:



			Oh  dear and you were doing so well  ROG  !!!!!!!! It was some shite from the beardy yogurt kniters in the caravan club in a attempt to keep the mupets with the boxes of air shiny side up!!! It
has absolutly no place in the real world of towing as most tow vehicles weigh a lot less than what they are desighed to tow, From a landrover at about 2 tonnes rated at 3.5 a farm tractor about 3 times its weight and   artic tractor unit  well you just go and tell mr or Ms trucker they can only tow six tons not Sixty when they are about to load up a big excavator !!!!LOL   and how would you surgest someone tows two big horses???
		
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Hold on a mo - I did say towing with car/van and deliberately did not diverse into towing with a set up which is purposely designed otherwise

I also stated very clearly that this a SAFETY recommendation and not a legal one

I never stated that towing a larger weight WAS unsafe - just that it COULD be

A lot could depend on many things including the stability, design and power of the towing vehicle

Back to LGVs - a W&D is designed to carry very large weights but there are plenty of videos showing what happens if the rigid is empty and the drag is loaded and it starts to wobble - the drag takes control of the rigid often leading to disaster


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## Luci07 (22 September 2011)

perfect11s said:



			If you have a very steep hill  however I would say you havent seen a steep hill on a narrow lane unless you are in devon or some parts of Wales !!!!! the manufactures recomended towing weights allows for a hill start  ,  if its very steep and tight you could use low range 4x4 just to climb the hill for extra power and grip then shift back into high range..... as for the confusion you are obviously well inside safe limits with what you are towing and the car ..and on your other point sadly as said before  morons are posting rubbish and mis infomation ..ROG is right as are others ,
		
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Unfortunately I have to disagree. I live in Surrey so - you really should be right. However....wait for it... yard is actual on the Downs so 500 ft above Dorking. It is also a narrow road (OK not single track). Its not a mountain but its not what you would expect to see in my neck of the woods.

And as for the hill starts... yes frequently have to use them. You see, the local dump is near the bottom of the hill so most weekends I get stuck in the queue. 

But you have made me feel a lot happier about whether I could try another horse (maybe not one as large as mine!) and be sure of getting back home!

And I knew the 85% wasn't a legal requirement but more of a "you should be around this".

At some point I want to switch to an equitrek but will prob move to a long wheel base version of the jeep before I do (and when I can actually SAVE my money!)


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## sallybush (22 September 2011)

Just to clarify, the comments on this thread are not by Sally, but her husband 

I can't see that H&H would ever stick their neck out and post details on this subject as has been so clearly demonstrated, it is a contentious issue.  My employer will obviously have done their homework on what we are able to tow, and this means either they believe that the vehicle has to be able to tow the MAM of the trailer, or its unclear and they are unwilling to be used as a test case in court!  As a result we can only tow our smallest trailers (approx 1800kg MAM) behind a Transit 350.  As I said, we have a huge fleet of vehicles nationwide and they wouldn't unnecessarily restrict us without good reason.


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## perfect11s (23 September 2011)

sallybush said:



			Just to clarify, the comments on this thread are not by Sally, but her husband 

I can't see that H&H would ever stick their neck out and post details on this subject as has been so clearly demonstrated, it is a contentious issue.  My employer will obviously have done their homework on what we are able to tow, and this means either they believe that the vehicle has to be able to tow the MAM of the trailer, or its unclear and they are unwilling to be used as a test case in court!  As a result we can only tow our smallest trailers (approx 1800kg MAM) behind a Transit 350.  As I said, we have a huge fleet of vehicles nationwide and they wouldn't unnecessarily restrict us without good reason.
		
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 It is only a contentious issue on here with mupets like you that only know half the facts and want to  argue!!!   the law is the law  simple!!!!! and its quite possible your company transits can only tow a trailer weight of 1800 kg because of the load in the van ie tools matirials and built in equipment  means the towing weight is limited by the total train weight because the van is already and allways loaded near its payload  as most utility company vehicles are,  the fleet engineer will have worked out a average load and posted 1800 kg as a safe maximum  on the vans, they will not want prosicutions for overloading  and this also covers the firm so they can trot out " well we told our employes  it could only tow 1800  it is their fault  not ours its overloaded" when they are stopped with a overloaded trailer...


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## lannerch (23 September 2011)

The only muppet posts on here are from the one calling everyone the muppet!
The law is unclear open to interpretation and not yet tested in court!


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## perfect11s (23 September 2011)

lannerch said:



			The only muppet posts on here are from the one calling everyone the muppet!
The law is unclear open to interpretation and not yet tested in court!
		
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 Its true   what they say!!! Never argue with an idiot !!!!!!!!ROFL What law is unclear  ?????  are you Thick or just  here for a aurgument
to wind people up and confuse law abiding folk!!!!!???? I think these forums are to help people and share news and infomation, people like you seem to want to spread misinfomation and confusion a best your ignorant of the law at worst trying to make trouble  and worry  people ...


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## ROG (23 September 2011)

Transit 350 from my recollection has a GVW of 3500 and a GTW of 5750 and no manufacturers towing capacity listed - but I could be wrong on that

To hitch that up to a trailer with a MAM of 3500 gives flexibility for loading
Lets say that the van unloaded weighs 2250
Lets say that the trailer unloaded weighs 1500
That leaves room for a max payload of 2000

That 2000 can be distributed between the van and trailer as the driver sees fit providing: -
the 3500 of the van is not exceeded
the 3500 of the trailer is not exceeded

Any listed manufacturer max towing capacity (actual weight) is not exceeded

The flexibility of load distribution is why there are specific laws on weights for the van, the trailer and the combination of the two


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## lannerch (23 September 2011)

I must be an idiot !!! I am confused I understand pre 97 licence anyone can tow up to a combination of 3.5t with any vehicle which means that I can tow my ivor 510 with a
Mini however I suspect this is not soley the only law that applies and it is not actually black and white in it's interpretation hence mine and others confusion!


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## lannerch (23 September 2011)

But then I also agree there are very steep hills around Dorking I also know of incredibly steep in the lakes, yorkshire, scotland and other areas and certainly not soley devon and some parts of wales! So forgive me purfect11 for not believing every word you type!
If the law is so simple as you say then show me and I for one will be very grateful


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## ROG (23 September 2011)

lannerch said:



			I must be an idiot !!! I am confused I understand pre 97 licence anyone can tow up to a combination of 3.5t with any vehicle
		
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No wonder you are confused - you have mixed up the rules with towing on a B licence and towing on a BE licence

The max combined MAM/GVW for towing with a B licence is 3.5 tonnes (if trailer MAM is over 750kgs)
The max combined MAM/GVW for towing with a BE licence is 7 tonnes by default (3.5+3.5)

The towing rules/laws for BE are very simple
Max vehicle MAM/GVW can be up to 3.5 tonnes 
Max trailer MAM/GVW can be up to 3.5 tonnes

DO NOT EXCEED: -
Vehicle MAM/GVW
Trailer MAM/GVW
GTW (if given)
Vehicle towing capacity (actual -not MAM/GVW- weight allowed to be towed) if given

All the above are LAWs and can be found on the Govt legal sites if anyone wishes to search them out and put the links on here

A totally legal example - my car has a manufacturers towing capacity of 1000kgs and I can legally tow a trailer which actually weighs 1000kgs unladen but which is plated at 3500 - If I was to put anything on it then it would put the actual weight over 1000 and therefore be illegal

Lets not have MYTH RUMOUR and SPECULATION where others THINK they have substance


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## perfect11s (23 September 2011)

lannerch said:



			This one supports the theory that it is the plaited max trailer weight that must fall within the vehicles towing capacity http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_weights_law.htm

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 This is right  but you have got  mixed up with  MAM  and the actual loaded weight... undersandable   as the example isnt very good,   as it says you canot  tow 2 horses in the trailer with the outlander  but dosent give a further example  that you could tow one  and be legal but   would need more  towing capacity  for two IE the example used of the discovery with 3500kg tow capacity which the web site  doesnt make clear, and  worst still they  dont explain the  down plateing is only to get round the post 97 car licence restictions   not good from a web site that puports to be a source of infomation on horse trailers!!!!!......


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## ROG (23 September 2011)

From the last link posted........ http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_weights_law.htm

Examples

Horses: 15hh m/w @ 500kg + 16.3hh TB @ 600kg = combined weight 1100kg 
Trailer: Ifor Williams 510 @ unladen 1000kg; MAM 2700kg (fine with above horse combination) 

Horses + Trailer gross weight = 2100kg 

Illegal:
 Vehicle: Mitsubishi Outlander with a Maximum towing capacity of 2000kg 
This vehicle does not have the authorised towing capacity to tow the gross weight of the horses and the trailer.

Legal:
 Vehicle: Landrover Discovery with a maximum towing capacity of 3500kg 
This vehicle is well within the capacity needed to tow these horses with this trailer.

I will also add this as another legal example 
Vehicle: Toyota Prado GXL TD with a maximum towing capacity of 2500 kg
This vehicle is well within the capacity needed to tow these horses with this trailer.


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## lannerch (23 September 2011)

Thanks rog but is  the authorised towing capacity the legal max the car can tow or the manufacturers recommendation ( which youvwould be stupid to ignore )
The only legal definition I can find about towing is http://m.direct.gov.uk/syndicationC...1c1f9722433fb994201109232031&param=DG_4022564 which again worries what licence you have what you are towing but no mention of what you are towing with!
So according to that theoretically towing my ifor 510 with a mini would be legal as long as your licence was pre 97!!!

Clear as mud!


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## Llanali (23 September 2011)

Lannerch- in answer to the first point, briefly, both. I believe the legal limit in eyes of police/law is what the manufacturer says in the limit for that vehicle.


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## lannerch (23 September 2011)

But does the law actually state this it's common sense yes but is it actually written as such?

If it is I can't find it! Will look more on sunday. I suspect there are also law on reckless driving that may cover the size of tow vehicle but that too would be open to interpretation.
I used to tow a rice 2 horse trailer with one horse and a vauxhall astra was I legal never got stopped if I wasnt but for safty reasons I would hate to do it now.


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## lannerch (23 September 2011)

This is interesting suggests the size of your tow car is not directly law but more so that towing a too heavy trailer would invalidate your insurance thus making you illegal http://m.whatcar.com/car-news/what-car-q-and-a/can-my-peugeot-tow-a-horsebox/226830


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## ROG (24 September 2011)

Try looking up the laws on vehicle design weights - there must be some or why else would manufacturers be required to list them?


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## perfect11s (24 September 2011)

ROG said:



			Try looking up the laws on vehicle design weights - there must be some or why else would manufacturers be required to list them?
		
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 I think there is a little bit of a grey area with cars and light vans as I understand  it  there is no relationship in law between the car and towing weight  unlike lorrys where you have a ministy plate on the unit  on a rigid or on a  trailer over 3500kg which sets out the legal maximum axle loads and total load this  can override what the design weights  on the manufactures plate says!!! It is 100% carved in stone and canot be exceeded , and for instance  if you  have a 7.5 ton lorry and the plate says axle one 3400kg and axle 2 5500   and a total weight of 7499kg  and you are stopped and taken to a weigh bridge and found  to be  over weight on either axle or as a total you will be done and fined its cut and dryed no argument,  but in the case of  a car or van towing they would have to weigh you and take you to court  and use the manufactures recomended weights  as evidence to prove you were useing a dangerous or unsafe combination,  and yes your insurance would use it as a way of avoiding paying a claim in the event of an accident too... Oh and on the other point I would guess the manufacture has to quote  design weights to gain type aproval and to comply with constuction and use laws...


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