# How many sycamore seeds are you really able to pick up?



## Patchworkpony (3 November 2014)

How many sycamore seeds are you really able to pick up from your fields? I think it is impossible to get every single seed, especially when they split in half and drop down vertically into the grass. If you manage to collect 99% that still leaves 1% to kill your horse. So what is one to do - discount grazing any land near sycamores, keep your horse in or simply take a chance? I think this is a no win scenario for anyone keeping horses near these wretched trees but maybe there is a solution and we just haven't thought of it yet. What can land owners do in this situation? Not everyone has the choice of alternative turnout.


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## Evie91 (3 November 2014)

I just do what I can- my paddock is lined with sycamores down one side. My smaller paddock has them smack bang in the middle. Smaller paddock is closed off. 
In the larger paddock they are fenced off but the leaves and seeds blow all over the grazing. Until this year I'd didn't know sycamores where a risk, found out after I spent thousands of pounds moving retired horse home! I only have a couple of acres too although currently doing well for grass. 

My husband mows where the leaves fall weekly to try and get most of them up - seems to have been a mast  year for seeds though as they are everywhere.
I feed hay in the paddock, horses have hard feed and come in overnight. My vet says I'm doing as much as I can. 
It's a huge worry - never thought I'd say this but roll on winter! 
Sycamore seems the most prevalent tree in our local area - roads are lined with them!


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## Peregrine Falcon (4 November 2014)

We are lucky that we do have plenty of grazing to rotate and move around our ponies.  I was going to move two of them today but as always do a field check beforehand.  I'd never looked for sycamore before and there are two big ones which have been dropping.  There's plenty of grass but I am not willing to take the risk.  

There is a company near us that were offering a vaccum service last year.  I am going to look them up and see if they could come and do the field before I think about using it.


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## Equi (4 November 2014)

I've got three of them and they thankfully seem to blow into the yard rather than the field and I've not seen any seeds in the field - the horses generally don't graze near them anyway so I've not been doing anything other than check the field for seeds and tell my dad to get the chainsaw out.


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## Joeyjojo (4 November 2014)

Its impossible to get them all, but I'm just trying to get as many as I can! All my fields have at least one sycamore in or around them so I have no choice but to turnout in fields that have seeds. I'm managing it by strip grazing so I can clear the new strip of seeds before letting them on it. It seems more manageable that way, although still probably means I spend an hour each day picking up seeds. I'm doing this by hand as you would need a very powerful vacuum to get the seeds out of anything other than very short grass. My handheld petrol one does not make any difference as the seeds are just stuck in the grass. 

Whilst no-one knows exactly what it is that gives them AM, I am working on the theory that its not one seed, but lots that will poison a horse. So my management is to remove as many as I can and limit the time they are out there (stabled from 4pm - 8am) so that even if they are eating them, its not enough to hurt hopefully! 

Has anyone found a good way of getting up the seeds - is a ride on mower with collector any good?


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## Equi (4 November 2014)

Joeyjojo said:



			Its impossible to get them all, but I'm just trying to get as many as I can! All my fields have at least one sycamore in or around them so I have no choice but to turnout in fields that have seeds. I'm managing it by strip grazing so I can clear the new strip of seeds before letting them on it. It seems more manageable that way, although still probably means I spend an hour each day picking up seeds. I'm doing this by hand as you would need a very powerful vacuum to get the seeds out of anything other than very short grass. My handheld petrol one does not make any difference as the seeds are just stuck in the grass. 

Whilst no-one knows exactly what it is that gives them AM, I am working on the theory that its not one seed, but lots that will poison a horse. So my management is to remove as many as I can and limit the time they are out there (stabled from 4pm - 8am) so that even if they are eating them, its not enough to hurt hopefully! 

Has anyone found a good way of getting up the seeds - is a ride on mower with collector any good?
		
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A sucky leaf blower appears to be good


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## maisie06 (4 November 2014)

Mine hays plenty of grass and plenty of hay and interestingly enough doesn't seem to graze around the sycamore tree. She will have to take her chances as I literally have nowhere else to put her, but seeing as she's in her 20's, and has been out there years it's a chance I shall take.....yes I'm a crap owner, say what you like, but there it is. I don't have time to go around collecting seeds. And they still have yet to prove a 100% definate link to AM and these trees.


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## Joeyjojo (4 November 2014)

equi said:



			A sucky leaf blower appears to be good
		
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I've got one of those and it doesn't seem to get them in the long grass - what's your technique? Maybe I'm just doing it wrong!!


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## cptrayes (4 November 2014)

maisie06 said:



			Mine hays plenty of grass and plenty of hay and interestingly enough doesn't seem to graze around the sycamore tree. She will have to take her chances as I literally have nowhere else to put her, but seeing as she's in her 20's, and has been out there years it's a chance I shall take.....yes I'm a crap owner, say what you like, but there it is. I don't have time to go around collecting seeds. And they still have yet to prove a 100% definate link to AM and these trees.
		
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You aren't a bad owner and I thank my lucky stars I have none of these trees,  but they are sure that the toxin is hypoglycin-A and they know some parts of some sycamore trees have it.


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## cptrayes (4 November 2014)

From Hairy Cob on my thread about AM.  She lost one to it this spring and the other has been in recovery since being saved the vet hospital.



We know that hypoglycin A can be found in the seeds & the young seedlings of sycamore (probably the cotyledon leaves rather than the true leaves). 
We know it isn't present in all seeds, just some & that huge variations can occur between the seeds on just one tree.
We don't know whether other acers are a risk.
We don't know whether the toxin can leach into the soil.
We don't know why some seeds produce the toxin & others don't.
We don't know why some horses on the same pasture are unaffected.




.....


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## Patchworkpony (4 November 2014)

These trees have now thrown a long shadow over horse keeping because the seeds can travel so far - I have seeds lying round my back door from sycamores that are nowhere near the house. Even if you can pick them all up it is so time consuming. If only there was a cure for AM - but maybe that will come.


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## Patchworkpony (8 November 2014)

I was picking some lush grass from our field yesterday for the guinea pigs when I found to my horror that there were two sycamore seeds in a small handful of grass and I hadn't even noticed them on the ground. How on earth then can anyone pick up every single seed? Even vigilant mowing or sucking isn't going to eradicate those seeds that are buried deep in the grass.


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## charlie76 (8 November 2014)

Patchworkpony. I feel your stress and worry as I only have two trees of which I've fenced them off miles from the trees. I still check the while field and I find a few everyday. 
I think all we can do is try our best, pick up as many as you can and try not to worry too much. Sadly you can't protect them for everything. The only other choice is to keep them in 24\7 but then something else will affect bthem, behavior issues,colic etc . 
I think to be really careful and to have the best of both worlds you can do the following
Turn out for no more than six hours
Make sure they are fenced off
Pick up as many as you can 
Give hay in hay nets if grass is short
Give hay when in the stable

My vet said that if you do the above then that should be sufficient to help it not happen to you, no guarantees of course but at least you know you have tried.


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## Patchworkpony (8 November 2014)

I think the only compromise for us is to have a small play area, with hard standing, attached to the stable yard, where the ponies (small ones) live and make sure every seed is picked in that area several times a day until there are none left on the trees and leave the sheep to pick up the ones we miss in the field over the winter. In addition of course lots of exercise for ponies but not in the field. Not the way I want to keep ponies but it's either that or give them up - I certainly couldn't risk losing them. These b***** sycamores they really are spoiling the pleasure of keeping horses for so many people.


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## D66 (8 November 2014)

We have  sycamores in one of our fields that have been grazed by horses for 37 years.  None have died of AM.  Luckily we have a sycamore free field we can put the horses in for the autumn.  So, I shall mow the area under the trees to remove seedlings before it is grazed again - we may also put some sheep in there ( if they are unaffected by the toxin) for a week.  
If a single seed is going to poison a horse they won't be safe anywhere.  Strip grazing away from the trees sounds like a good idea.


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## flaxen tail (8 November 2014)

Is one seed all it takes ?


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## Spring Feather (8 November 2014)

maisie06 said:



			Mine hays plenty of grass and plenty of hay and interestingly enough doesn't seem to graze around the sycamore tree. She will have to take her chances as I literally have nowhere else to put her, but seeing as she's in her 20's, and has been out there years it's a chance I shall take.....yes I'm a crap owner, say what you like, but there it is. I don't have time to go around collecting seeds. And they still have yet to prove a 100% definate link to AM and these trees.
		
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I live in Canada so obviously there are literally loads and loads of maple trees here, including Sycamore Maples.  Most horse people over here are fully aware of the concerns over maple seeds but most deal with it in the same way as you (as do I).  I have large fields on my farm and I feed hay ad-lib 24/7/365 and we've never had an incident.  Of course it could happen, but so could many other things.


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## thatsmygirl (8 November 2014)

maisie06 said:



			Mine hays plenty of grass and plenty of hay and interestingly enough doesn't seem to graze around the sycamore tree. She will have to take her chances as I literally have nowhere else to put her, but seeing as she's in her 20's, and has been out there years it's a chance I shall take.....yes I'm a crap owner, say what you like, but there it is. I don't have time to go around collecting seeds. And they still have yet to prove a 100% definate link to AM and these trees.
		
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Your not a bad owner and I think the same, iv got no choice to use the field I do so they can take the risk but all seeds seem to fly out the field. I try not to worry as anything could happen tomoz


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## Toffee_monster (8 November 2014)

We had one sycamore and it fell down in the wind, i found the horses stood munching happily on it  i cleared as much as i could but i also have no where else for them nthis was 6 weeks ago now

So many people have grazed sycamore infested ground for many years without problems, its strange. But i do think that nowadays there are so many risks, keep them in too much they get ulcers, keep them out too much they might get colic, keep them in too much they might get colic, Now AM ........ It might be awful to say but they are going to die of something  something will get us all in the end


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## skint1 (1 May 2015)

I wanted to bump this thread up again because I lost my mare this week to EAM. I thought all the same things as many on here,  yes, they are all going to die of something but this is perhaps one of the worst ways I can imagine. 

She had an episode in November where she ended up in hospital but EAM could not be confirmed so it was put down to a respiratory infection She had been in the same field at the same yard for years with no problem, and so had all the other horses. There were seeds and seedlings in the field and I under estimated the risk and she paid for it in the most awful way.  

The horrible and depressing thing is that sycamores are everywhere, they blow for miles, the seedlings are small, the helicopters are smaller still, I don't know what the answer is but I hope that as  a community we can find a way to manage this new and all prevailing risk


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## Sandstone1 (1 May 2015)

I'm so sorry. I'm very worried about sycamore seedlings especially as we have trees near us.


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## milliepops (1 May 2015)

skint1 said:



			The horrible and depressing thing is that sycamores are everywhere, they blow for miles, the seedlings are small, the helicopters are smaller still, I don't know what the answer is but I hope that as  a community we can find a way to manage this new and all prevailing risk
		
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It's just awful isn't it. So, so sorry to hear about your mare. It's so frightening  I've picked literally thousands of the blasted things over the last few weeks and I see them in my sleep now.  We have to be so vigilant


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## Trules (1 May 2015)

Hi there, my OH noticed last night there are seeds in my field.
I really genuinely don't understand why problem this has only really come to light in the last year or so, when horses and sycamores have been around for a lot longer? I have had horses in my field for 6 years with no problems, and now I feel I need to worry about it. can someone tell me why this is? I genuinely need to know.


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## milliepops (1 May 2015)

I don't know Trules, my horses have always lived around sycamores too, indeed my mare has a taste for the full grown leaves (which is why I am obsessive over the seedlings).  Perhaps previously the deaths were attributed to grass sickness which IIRC is not fully understood, or something like that?


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## skint1 (1 May 2015)

I am not sure that anyone has a definite answer as to why this is a problem now and not before, maybe the sycamore is adapting to our changing climate, but perhaps there are other reasons


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## Patchworkpony (1 May 2015)

Trules said:



			Hi there, my OH noticed last night there are seeds in my field.
		
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 That's awful Trules have you any trees near you or have they simply blown a long way on the wind?


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## Patchworkpony (1 May 2015)

skint1 said:



			I wanted to bump this thread up again because I lost my mare this week to EAM. I thought all the same things as many on here,  yes, they are all going to die of something but this is perhaps one of the worst ways I can imagine. 

She had an episode in November where she ended up in hospital but EAM could not be confirmed so it was put down to a respiratory infection She had been in the same field at the same yard for years with no problem, and so had all the other horses. There were seeds and seedlings in the field and I under estimated the risk and she paid for it in the most awful way.  

The horrible and depressing thing is that sycamores are everywhere, they blow for miles, the seedlings are small, the helicopters are smaller still, I don't know what the answer is but I hope that as  a community we can find a way to manage this new and all prevailing risk
		
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 Thank You skint1 for bringing this to our attention - but what horrible sad circumstances that have provoked this bump. I can't begin to tell you how sorry I feel for you and your family. These ***** seeds are really spoiling the pleasure and relaxation of horse owning for so many people now.


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## southerncomfort (1 May 2015)

skint1 - I'm so sorry, what an awful thing to happen.  One side of my 3 acre field is covered in hundreds of saplings at the moment.  I'm out there pulling them up every day but their seems no end to them.  

Do you mind if I ask what your horse's symptoms were when she was poorly the first time?  I only ask as my little old pony was very sick in December and we never really got to the bottom of what had caused it.

x


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## Merlin11 (1 May 2015)

interesting update on celtic vet site

http://www.celticequinevets.co.uk/news/


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## Trules (1 May 2015)

There's a tree in the field, always has been, there have been horses grazing in said field for all my lifetime, I have never heard of any illness. that is why i am reluctant to get upset about it.


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## skint1 (1 May 2015)

The first time (end Nov 2014) her symptoms were mainly respiratory, she had COPD anyway so I was always a bit watchful of her breathing. This particular day her breathing was very bad, so I called the vet, and by the time they arrived she was getting unsteady on her feet, it looked like she was tying up is the only way I can describe it, They took bloods and as a precaution she was admitted to hospital to start her on fluids etc whilst we waited for the results. This probably saved her life. 

The bloods showed some raised enzymes but not enough to call it EAM, she improved really quickly so in the end it was put down to a respiratory illness. I should have heeded this warning shot, but I didn't. I thought she was safe, it wasn't EAM, horses had grazed those paddocks for years and no ill effects, and even now, she is the only horse (touch wood) to have died from it in our area that I know about anyway. 

This last time, her symptoms were much more colic like but with muscle tremors and drenching cold sweat. The vet did take bloods but this time we didn't admit her to hospital until a few hours later when the results were back. I think at this point, despite the excellent care she received the odds were already well against her. They worked so hard to give her the best chance but in the end she could not be saved. It is not a peaceful way to go. 

It's bought about a lot of recrimination at the yard etc but honestly no one is at fault but me, I was responsible for her safety and I failed on so many levels.

Of course now I am analysing everything. There were subtle changes to her behavior days in advance of both illnesses, for example she'd be reluctant to leave her stable, was less forward going ridden out but because she was prone to being footy at times, had COPD and was arthritic it was easy to attribute these symptoms to one of those conditions. She was such a genuine horse, I should have looked beyond the more obvious reasons and seen the bigger picture. Still, with regard to the subject of EAM, it makes me think maybe it's a cumulative thing rather than  just one bad seed/seedling.


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## muckypony (1 May 2015)

skint1 said:



			no one is at fault but me, I was responsible for her safety and I failed on so many levels.
		
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No you didn't. Like so many of us, you did what you thought was right and probably what the majority of others would have done. I very much doubt that I am the only one to say that I know there are sycamores near my fields, and seedlings in some fields, but I am just trying my best to clear what I can - there will still be some I miss.

This awful thing seems to be some kind of sick lottery so don't blame yourself x


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## flaxen tail (1 May 2015)

So very very sorry for your loss Skint1,  this is such a dreadful illness and seems to strike randomly making it so hard for us and another thing for us horse owners to watch out for whilst praying it will never happen x


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## hairycob (1 May 2015)

Skint,  so sorry to hear of your loss. I recognise the feeling that you have failed your horse & tbh there are days I still struggle with that. I know it is hard to do but please log your case with the University of Liege on their website. If you haven't already found them there are groups on Facebook about EAM & they are great when you need to vent. There is so much to learn about this horrific condition & I doubt we will ever be able to minimise the risk, just learn as much as we can to mitigate the risk & be able to act quickly if necessary. 
Sadly there are still vets who are not up to speed & that needs to change. One of the most depressing things last year was to attend an event where a vet gave a talk about EAM only to realise he wouldn't have considered it for my horses as his knowledge was out of date.


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## southerncomfort (1 May 2015)

skint1 said:



			The first time (end Nov 2014) her symptoms were mainly respiratory, she had COPD anyway so I was always a bit watchful of her breathing. This particular day her breathing was very bad, so I called the vet, and by the time they arrived she was getting unsteady on her feet, it looked like she was tying up is the only way I can describe it, They took bloods and as a precaution she was admitted to hospital to start her on fluids etc whilst we waited for the results. This probably saved her life. 

The bloods showed some raised enzymes but not enough to call it EAM, she improved really quickly so in the end it was put down to a respiratory illness. I should have heeded this warning shot, but I didn't. I thought she was safe, it wasn't EAM, horses had grazed those paddocks for years and no ill effects, and even now, she is the only horse (touch wood) to have died from it in our area that I know about anyway. 

This last time, her symptoms were much more colic like but with muscle tremors and drenching cold sweat. The vet did take bloods but this time we didn't admit her to hospital until a few hours later when the results were back. I think at this point, despite the excellent care she received the odds were already well against her. They worked so hard to give her the best chance but in the end she could not be saved. It is not a peaceful way to go. 

It's bought about a lot of recrimination at the yard etc but honestly no one is at fault but me, I was responsible for her safety and I failed on so many levels.

Of course now I am analysing everything. There were subtle changes to her behavior days in advance of both illnesses, for example she'd be reluctant to leave her stable, was less forward going ridden out but because she was prone to being footy at times, had COPD and was arthritic it was easy to attribute these symptoms to one of those conditions. She was such a genuine horse, I should have looked beyond the more obvious reasons and seen the bigger picture. Still, with regard to the subject of EAM, it makes me think maybe it's a cumulative thing rather than  just one bad seed/seedling.
		
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Please don't blame yourself.  There is so much still unknown about this dreadful illness.  No-one can say why some horses are affected and others aren't.   You didn't fail her in any way at all.

x


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## Sandstone1 (1 May 2015)

Does anyone know when the toxin is less dangerous? I read it gets less toxic as the summer goes on but when is it safe if ever?


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## Merlin11 (1 May 2015)

selinas spirit said:



			Does anyone know when the toxin is less dangerous? I read it gets less toxic as the summer goes on but when is it safe if ever?
		
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The article below seems to say they get less toxic as summer goes on. Not sure if I would risk it though. I prefer to remove them. I only have one tree so I can remove the majority (took me an hour a day for 2 months). 

http://www.celticequinevets.co.uk/news/


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## Sandstone1 (1 May 2015)

Merlin11 said:



			The article below seems to say they get less toxic as summer goes on. Not sure if I would risk it though. I prefer to remove them. I only have one tree so I can remove the majority (took me an hour a day for 2 months). 

http://www.celticequinevets.co.uk/news/

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Yes, that's the article I read too.  Just wish we knew more about it all.


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## mrsbt (1 May 2015)

So sorry for your loss skint1, it's been 6 months since my sister and I lost 2 of ours. Feel like we have spent hours picking seeds and mowing and still panicked about the others safety
Hopefully highlighting our losses will help prevent others


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## PollyP99 (1 May 2015)

Trules said:



			There's a tree in the field, always has been, there have been horses grazing in said field for all my lifetime, I have never heard of any illness. that is why i am reluctant to get upset about it.
		
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Sorry to be blunt but you need to pull your head out of the sand, a family member lost one to EAM in 2013 in a field where horses had grazed for 40 years, the first death was put down to heart isues she was found dead (by me) no symptoms prior except subtle muscle tremors, a year in and we nearly lost her half brother., saved only as hairucob on here had posted her experience and so we asked vet if it was possible.  Another pony a kept few hundred yards away died s it was treated as colic until it was too late to save him. 

 Everyone can say fields grazed for years blah blah but what ever changed changed and horses are dying, you're. Fool not to take heed of that!


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## skint1 (1 May 2015)

The seeds/seedlings are just everywhere, I can understand why people choose to ignore the risk  because where do you even start? Ragwort management is a walk in the park by comparison.  Rolling the dice and hoping for the best is fine until the day that it isn't, I will be haunted by it for the rest of my days. 

I will visit the website for University of Liège, the more we learn the better we can mitigate the risk.


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## Peregrine Falcon (2 May 2015)

Truly sorry for your loss.  


I've been picking the blasted things up daily, although it seems like an endless task with approx 25 acres of fields to do.   They get everywhere and we've been lucky enough that the neighbouring field owner took two trees down for us.


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## hairycob (2 May 2015)

Trules- there were old trees & horses had grazed the fields for over 40 years with no problem until my 2 got it.


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## ycbm (2 May 2015)

I've been puzzled by the 'sudden' appearance of this disease too.  It sounds to me like the toxin is being given to some parts of some trees by some kind of disease, which is spreading into trees which have never had it before.  So trees that used to be safe can't be guaranteed to stay that way. 

I am so sorry for all of you who have lost horses, and for the terrible worry for all of you with sycamore near your horses


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## charlie76 (2 May 2015)

So sorry for your loss. At my old yard we lost three in two days. Its a horrid way to go. They started with tiny muscle tremors then it very quickly turned into extreme choke and azoturia. They were dripping in sweat. Temperature rapidly drops and their gums goes very bright red. 

I have one sycamore near my field, thought I had two but it would seem the copous seedlings I have been religiously collecting were in fact ash, I still collect them though, just in case. 

To manage picking them up I fenced off a small ish sized paddock at the furthest point away from the tree with electric tape and picked them from that area, every few days I move the tape along about 2ft and pick them along the line where I move it from. I am finding this much easier than picking one big paddock.


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## hairycob (2 May 2015)

I realised when picking the seedlings that it was a bad idea to have left the ash seeds, of which there were more, last autumn as it's often hard to because which is which at the early seeding stage.


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## skint1 (2 May 2015)

charlie76 said:



			So sorry for your loss. At my old yard we lost three in two days. Its a horrid way to go. They started with tiny muscle tremors then it very quickly turned into extreme choke and azoturia. They were dripping in sweat. Temperature rapidly drops and their gums goes very bright red. 

I have one sycamore near my field, thought I had two but it would seem the copous seedlings I have been religiously collecting were in fact ash, I still collect them though, just in case. 

To manage picking them up I fenced off a small ish sized paddock at the furthest point away from the tree with electric tape and picked them from that area, every few days I move the tape along about 2ft and pick them along the line where I move it from. I am finding this much easier than picking one big paddock.
		
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This is what my daughter and her friend are doing with their two geldings (in the field next to my mare) but the poor farmer he had no idea about EAM and he's really trying to do all he can. I believe he's using a weed killer on the fields to try and kill the seedlings but the trees are on the roadside, they belong to the local council, I am not sure if they will allow him to take them down.


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## Pebble101 (2 May 2015)

I thought I didn't have any Sycamore trees, I have had further investigation and found 2, although not in the field.  Both are very large with sparse leaves - and certainly there weren't any 'helicopters' last year.  I am hoping they are like the old Oak we have which doesn't seem to produce acorns.  What I thought were Sycamore seedlings could be Ash as they are both very similar.  We do have a lot of Ash trees around.


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## Sandstone1 (4 May 2015)

Are sycamore leaves always green? Have seen some trees with what look like sycamore shaped leaves but are a reddish/ brown colour not bright green.


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## charlie76 (4 May 2015)

selinas spirit said:



			Are sycamore leaves always green? Have seen some trees with what look like sycamore shaped leaves but are a reddish/ brown colour not bright green.
		
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 Ours are red. You can get red sycamores.


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## hairycob (4 May 2015)

I did have a red one in my garden - a maple rather than a sycamore I think. #I wasn't taking any chances as my neighbour has horses & it has gone.


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## ycbm (4 May 2015)

If anyone needs to kill one one and can't afford to pay tree fellers, you can buy extremely concentrated glyphosphate (Pathclear)  from agricultural stores in five litre bottles. If you drill holes around the bottom of the trunk and squirt in undiluted glyphosphate from a syringe , it will kill the tree. At the moment, it's legal to buy it, but it won't be for much longer without a certificate that you have attended the training to use weedkillers, so don't wait if you intend to use it. It would, of course, be illegal to poison someone else's tree this way without their permission, or any tree with a preservation order on it.


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## Merlin11 (5 May 2015)

The leaves on my sycamore have some red on them at the moment. I think they may be reddish when growing.


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