# URGENT HELP ABNORMAL FOAL WITH VIDEO & PICS???



## lisa_dundee (14 June 2012)

Had a stunning massive coloured filly born a week ago with severely contracted hind tendons, the back fetlock was totally knuckled over backwards, we had to hold her up for feeds 24/7, but as she got stronger she was trying to get herself up and when she managed she was bunny hopping round the stable on her joint so we bandaged her feet up tight and straight so she couldn't keep falling on to the joint knuckles and after leaving the bandages on for one day and one night, she can now get her self up for feeds and her feet are the right way round (she is stood on her hooves), however the problem is she move her hind legs independently, the legs stay together and she bunny hops. The vets main concern is her other problem that she can not move her tail at all or lift it to wee and poo, she is basically incontinent and wees and poos on herself when she lays down. She has made so much progress in a week however the vet feels it is neurological and spinal damage and to give her a week and if the is not major improvement to put her to sleep. Has anyone else experienced anything like this please? Feedback welcome good or bad??











































http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPFRslHrlxM&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## kerilli (14 June 2012)

i wouldn't turn out at all, i'd walk them both out in hand very gently and slowly as often as possible and see if her tendons will relax down more in time. 
very best of luck.


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## BBH (14 June 2012)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=536024


A thread to give you hope.

Beautiful foal by the way


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## lisa_dundee (14 June 2012)

kerilli said:



			i wouldn't turn out at all, i'd walk them both out in hand very gently and slowly as often as possible and see if her tendons will relax down more in time. 
very best of luck.
		
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Vet has advised us to keep her stabled now, just so hard knowing what to do for the best


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## Dab (14 June 2012)

BBH said:



http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=536024


A thread to give you hope.

Beautiful foal by the way 

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^^^this. well done BBH i was trying to find this thread.


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## lisa_dundee (14 June 2012)

Thanks I have posted on this thread to ask if her foal could move its tail and back legs independently


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## BBH (14 June 2012)

lisa_dundee said:



			Thanks I have posted on this thread to ask if her foal could move its tail and back legs independently
		
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You could PM  her aswell incase she dosn't return to that thread.


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## MadisonBelle (14 June 2012)

So sorry, no help but beautiful foal and I hope she comes good for you.......x


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## Elsbells (14 June 2012)

In the video, when the mare put the foal in the coener by the gate, I'd swear that the back legs moved independantly or am I seeing things?

That is a stunning little foal who looks healthy, happy and full of beans otherwise. I'd give it a chance as she deserves it and it's amazing what nature and time can do for the newborn. Some physio might help?

Good Luck with her


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## Jnhuk (14 June 2012)

What a lovely foal and impressed how well she can move/get some speed up with those bunny hops.

Personally I would give your filly a chance as she looks a fighter... however, she cannot go through life unable to lift her tail/poo/wee or move back legs independently.

I hope that something can be done for her to stimulate the nerves back in to doing what they are meant to be doing. I am presuming that the damage has been caused by compression with the foal being so large or is there something else going on that the vets are worried about?

I hope all turns out well in the end and like that other thread, there is a lovely three year old post in few years time.


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## lisa_dundee (14 June 2012)

Elsbells said:



			In the video, when the mare put the foal in the coener by the gate, I'd swear that the back legs moved independantly or am I seeing things?

That is a stunning little foal who looks healthy, happy and full of beans otherwise. I'd give it a chance as she deserves it and it's amazing what nature and time can do for the newborn. Some physio might help?

Good Luck with her

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Yes we were sure she did two scissor motions, my physio Joelle sadly agrees with the vet but we have another guy coming every day who is a spiritual healer and a human physio and also have an equine touch lady who does natural remedies and they are both coming daily and spending hours with her doing whatever they can, we have even had Ann Dee the horse whisperer talk to her


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## BBH (14 June 2012)

I'm sure I saw her stumble and use her hind legs slightly apart to steady herself.

Maybe the way she is hopping is because thats  currently the only way she knows how to move and is comfortable that way.

She looks a strong girl and I'd give her every chance, even going to a referral specialist vet before I took the last choice.


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## Archangel (14 June 2012)

No help either but what an adorable foal.  

I found this article
http://mccallshorseworld.com/cms/content/view/132/94/ and it refers to a hopping gait half way down.

and this about contracted tendons (bit gory)
http://www.fveter.unr.edu.ar/Objetos/flexular.pdf

and this
http://www.ruralheritage.com/messageboard/virtualvet/380.htm

then this snip - I have no experience of this and it could be completely off on a tangent but selenium does keep cropping up.

Severe selenium deficiencies, which are characterized by weakness, impaired movement, difficulty in swalling, impaired cardiac function, and respiratory distress. Selenium deficiencies have also been implicated in certain types of "tying up" in perfomance horses. Yound foals, from birth to about four weeks of age, are most likely to demonstrate clinical symptoms(which occur as a result of inadequate selenium intake by the dam during pregnancy).
They might develop muscle pain, an inability to nurse, and a stilted hopping gait in the rear legs, or be stillborn or die within days of birth. In areas where selenium deficiency is a documented problem in foals, the dam should recieve supplementation throughout her pregnancy, and the foal given a vitamin E-and selenium injection just after birth.
Selenium is a tricky mineral, for several reasons. First, unlike most minerals which have a broad safety range, selenium has a very low threshold of toxicity for horses-only a few parts per million(ppm) beyond the recommended levels. Most other livestock species have a much higher tolorance, partly because their absorption rates are lower than horses.


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## sallyf (14 June 2012)

We had a mare foal with us a few years ago and the foal had no anal sphincter so had no control over himself and initially poo'd on himself while lying down.
His owners decided to let him take his chance and give him time.
As his poo got harder it wasnt such an issue but he also had the same if not quite as bad bunny hopping movement.
He was given till he was a yearling but was eventually pts as it was obvious it wasnt going to change any.
This one could sort of walk but hopped at trot and canter but it wasnt as bad as the one on the video.
Although he coped just fine ,he did have prolonged box rest because his legs were very wonky but the odd gait never really changed in its severity.
The general consensus with the one we had was that there was something not put together right inside and he had this odd muscle on his rump which we think was the anal sphincter as if you pressed it he lifted his tail.


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## HazyXmas (14 June 2012)

No advice i'm afraid but wanted to say what a really beautiful foal you have.

 I hope that she improves, keeping everything crossed for you. x


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## Clippy (14 June 2012)

Ditto everyone else - beautiful, fiesty foal and I hope you soon see an improvement. I hope it's just because she was squashed in the uterus and finds her co-ordination


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## lisa_dundee (14 June 2012)

sallyf said:



			We had a mare foal with us a few years ago and the foal had no anal sphincter so had no control over himself and initially poo'd on himself while lying down.
His owners decided to let him take his chance and give him time.
As his poo got harder it wasnt such an issue but he also had the same if not quite as bad bunny hopping movement.
He was given till he was a yearling but was eventually pts as it was obvious it wasnt going to change any.
This one could sort of walk but hopped at trot and canter but it wasnt as bad as the one on the video.
Although he coped just fine ,he did have prolonged box rest because his legs were very wonky but the odd gait never really changed in its severity.
The general consensus with the one we had was that there was something not put together right inside and he had this odd muscle on his rump which we think was the anal sphincter as if you pressed it he lifted his tail.
		
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Thankyou for your reply, we wouldnt keep her going as long as that but rather than give her the week the vet has recommended we were thinking more 2-3 weeks. Your the only person I have had feedback from who's foal had symptoms more or less the same as ours, such a shame it wasnt a better outcome.


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## sallyf (14 June 2012)

lisa_dundee said:



			Thankyou for your reply, we wouldnt keep her going as long as that but rather than give her the week the vet has recommended we were thinking more 2-3 weeks. Your the only person I have had feedback from who's foal had symptoms more or less the same as ours, such a shame it wasnt a better outcome.
		
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No problem ,i hope she improves for you as she looks a lovely foal.
I think you are sensible to give her a bit longer just because for your own sake you have to be happy with the decision.
Good luck


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## YasandCrystal (14 June 2012)

Sorry I can offer no advice. It doesn't look good - the foal only moves one back leg independantly when she is side swiped by the mare, never through choice.

I hope she comes good. I agree with you to give her a few weeks. You are clearly trying every avenue - well done for being so open minded - I would be inclined to do that anyway (give the foal a few weeks or moinths)as long as the foal is not actually suffering whatever the outcome just to be fairer on the mare. To lose her foal a week in would be devastating. They are both gorgeous.


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## widget (14 June 2012)

Maybe try tellington touch? Give her a decent amount of time as she's so bonny in every other way. Keep us updated x


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## oldywoldy (14 June 2012)

We had one with a slightly contracted tendon behind vet gave her Oxytet which relaxes the tendons within 24 hrs of being born and again at 48 hours and within four days she was walking properly - dont know if this can be done after a week or so?  Cracking looking foal - hope she comes right.


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## christine48 (14 June 2012)

I don't think you should turn out at the moment,it's not doing the foal any good running around like that. Restricted exercise and standing for some time on a hard surface should help. I know it's hard keeping them in but I think the foal needs to get stronger. You could walk the mare in hand so that the foal isn't being run off its legs.


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## JanetGeorge (14 June 2012)

I had one that was even MORE 'down' behind - she couldn't stand at all for 4 days without assistance and had incredible trouble drinking as her hocks were on the ground and her head was too high.  Vet wanted her PTS at 3 weeks!  No WAY!  She improved VERY slowly - with NO treatment.  We kept her on box rest for 10 days and then a small paddock by day - close to the yard.  

She's now a 2 year old and will go for grading later this year - no-one could spot the problem she had because it's GONE!  LOOK at her closely once a week and take photos - don't really LOOK in-between!  If the week by week photos show even a slight improvement, hang on in there!


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## ILuvCowparsely (14 June 2012)

BBH said:



			I'm sure I saw her stumble and use her hind legs slightly apart to steady herself.

Maybe the way she is hopping is because thats  currently the only way she knows how to move and is comfortable that way.

She looks a strong girl and I'd give her every chance, even going to a referral specialist vet before I took the last choice.
		
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your right she did .  I wonder if an equine water treadmill would help .

 lovely foal  i hope she  improves as she gets older.
 my gelding was down on his back feet and very cow hocked almost walking down on his fetlocks.. I was told to restrict his turnout till he got stronger.


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## lilbean (14 June 2012)

Firstly, I am so sorry the your foaling experience has not been a straightforward occasion.

I would love to be optimistic and be able to give you hope but I doesn't look all that hopeful.

Watching her move on your video there does not appear to be true flexion and extension of her hocks and thus her stifles. The movement appears to originate from her hips and back as opposed to lower down the limbs. Although the fetlocks appear to flex I imagine this is passive, due to the compression, as opposed to actual movement.

I also would have been inclined to administer a high dose of oxytet to her during the first few days to help the contracted tendons but feel that this is probably not worth the potential side effects at this stage. The tendons appear to be correctly aligned now anyway.

The fact that you have bunny hopping movement, movement that appears to originate from higher up the limb than lower, no independent movement of tail, ? inability to control motions of bladder and bowel certainly would indicate a potential spinal involvement. 

Obviously foals are always difficult to assess but specialist hospitals are specialist because they deal with problems on a day to day basis. I would seek advice from them for further assessment sooner rather than later.

Also, normally it wouldn't be advised but it may be worth considering the effects of a one off high dose steriod as a last resort before you opt to PTS. Sometimes it is enough if it is inflammatory based to resolve the issue. However, as is often the case in foals conditions seen early on especially from birth tend to be congenital and thus more complex. You may find abnormal development or compression of spinal nerves are the root of your problem and thus unfortunately there is nothing that can be done.

I truly hope that your situation resolves and wish your beautiful foal all the luck, please keep us posted how she gets on.


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## HazyXmas (15 June 2012)

Is there any more news about this little filly?


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## Fools Motto (15 June 2012)

I've seen the video and  I don't think the prognosis is good, not because of the 'bunny hopping', but I'm more worried about the incontinence and lack of controlled tail movement. To me, that means some sort of spinal injury or lack of development.  Thinking along the lines of the pelvis is somehow fused together abnormally? Have you had her x-rayed or scanned? I'm no expert, but it doesn't strike me as neurological. 
This said, have hope and allow some more time. The filly doesn't look in pain or anything, so I'd carry on as is, with restricted turnout for 3 x 10 mins each day. More for the mares benefit really. Overall, give them another few weeks and re-think after that if any progress has been made.

On another note, I know your mare. I think she is very smart and was so tempted to buy her when she was for sale a few years ago!

All the very best of luck.


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## dingle12 (15 June 2012)

Really hope things work out for you, your foal is gorgeous is it one of Pie's ?


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## lisa_dundee (15 June 2012)

Thanks for your replies, she has not had a scan as she would need an MRI scan for accurate prognosis and we just can't afford it, at the minute everything is the same, as I am trying literally everything I have orders some holograph tabs for her (probably useless) and we are using magnetic boots and a tens machine. She is by my section D stallion who was only 14.1hh, I regretably sold him to germany a few month ago when I found out I was pregnant


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## kerilli (15 June 2012)

it sounds as if you are doing as much as you can for her. i have the holograph tabs on 2 of mine too... worth a try! Ann Dee is excellent, I'd love to hear what she said, by pm if you like.
when the foal's lying down, will she let you move her hindlegs, will they move independently if not weight-bearing? can you give her gentle massage?
i really hope this has a good outcome for all of you.


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## Lavender (15 June 2012)

Fools Motto said:



			On another note, I know your mare. I think she is very smart and was so tempted to buy her when she was for sale a few years ago!
		
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I think I recognise her too - is it Centyfield Cascade by any chance?

Good luck with the foal.


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## Fools Motto (15 June 2012)

Lavender said:



			I think I recognise her too - is it Centyfield Cascade by any chance?

.
		
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Yes, that is the one I had in mind. She used to live in Devon?


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## lisa_dundee (15 June 2012)

Yes it is Centyfield Cascade, we were totally ripped off with this mare, so you had a lucky escape if you were considering buying her to ride her, but she owes us nothing now and will be with us until she goes to horsey heaven


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## Alba (15 June 2012)

I have nothing to add other than good luck.  I think you are being incredibly strong and if you do have to say goodbye then you will do it knowing you have tried your best for the little beauty.


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## rachi0 (16 June 2012)

Is the foal still quite upright behind?obviously you said she can walk on her hooves now... Have you tried her on either a course of anti- inflammatories or steroids? Bunny hopping is sometimes caused by pain....

I had a foal born couple of years ago that was very contracted on one front fetlock so we put her in a cast... Overnight she was no longer able to move her front leg from the shoulder.. Had no feeling when u pinched or pricked her...when she walked she just dragged the leg... We did physio with her (while still in the cast) - we walked beside her pulling her leg forwards so she could stand on it and she had a few steroid injections and anti inflammatories. When she was ready to come out the cast she still wasnt perfect so continued physio... She is now a racehorse! Took weeks to get right.

It was a low dose dexamethasone that our foal was given.


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## lisa_dundee (18 June 2012)

Hi everyone, she is pretty much the same but is going the other way and sinking lower down now on to her hocks


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## *hic* (18 June 2012)

Beautiful foal, how sad. Like kerilli I'm wondering whether you can move her legs independently when she's down or whether you can pick up one when she's standing.


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## lisa_dundee (18 June 2012)

You can move her legs when she's laid down but not really when she's stood up and she tries to kick your head off lol


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## PolarSkye (18 June 2012)

Oh my goodness that video made me so very sad.  OP, please don't take offense . . . that little filly is stunning, but her little back end just looks, well, poorly formed somehow .  The odd stance on its own is worrying enough, but coupled with the incontinence it points to something fundamental wrong somewhere in her pelvic region and it's either neurological or skeletal . . . or both.

I so hope I'm wrong . . . she's a gorgeous, gorgeous little foal (and her dam is lovely looking too).  Please keep us updated on how she is doing.

P


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## lisa_dundee (19 June 2012)

Our intention was to give her more time but sadly she has weakened and begun dragging her back end round
And we feel this is unfair so have made the heart breaking decision to put her to sleep, thankyou for all your kind comments and input x


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## HazyXmas (19 June 2012)

So sorry to read this :-( I've been following this post & hoping for good news.

I think that you are doing the right thing for her, poor darling.

Big hugs. Hope that the mare is ok........


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## magic104 (19 June 2012)

So very sorry to read this, even more so as she looked such a gorgeous filly.  Hugs


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## kerilli (19 June 2012)

So very sad to hear this but you are doing absolutely the right thing, you know that. Huge condolences. I hope you can maybe find a foster foal for the mare to make some good come from this heartbreaking situation. 
Run free up there, little one.


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## PolarSkye (19 June 2012)

I am so very sorry to hear this, but at least she's not suffering any more.  RIP beautiful girl.

P


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## sallyf (19 June 2012)

You have been incredibly brave in making what i'm sure is the right decision.
Good on you for giving her the chance and knowing the right time to let go.


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## JingleTingle (19 June 2012)

Have been following this hoping for a good outcome. So sorry this was not to be, absolutely stunning little foal, tragic for all concerned. RIP little foal.


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## YasandCrystal (19 June 2012)

So so sorry - life is so cruel sometimes. <<<<hugs>>>> to you and your mare


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## stimpy (19 June 2012)

Oh my goodness, how utterly heartbreaking.

My thoughts are with you.


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## meesha (19 June 2012)

So sorry you are going through this but you are doing your best for the little girl by letting her go, hope you are ok x


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## Lavender (19 June 2012)

So sorry for your loss 

(Did you get my PM?)


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## Archangel (19 June 2012)

Heartbreaking. I'm so sorry.


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## Amymay (19 June 2012)

Having been following this, can only support your difficult decision.

I'm so sorry.


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## Slave2Magic (19 June 2012)

So sorry to read that your little girl wasn't getting any better. I have no doubt that you have made the right decission and done what is in her best interests. Sleep tight beautiful baby.xx


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## PorkChop (19 June 2012)

So so sorry to hear this, such a beautiful foal, but you tried everything and have made the kindest decision x


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## angrovestud (19 June 2012)

You must be feeling terrible I was in the same situation as you with having to PTS a baby,a year ago, I am so sorry for your loss, but you had to be strong to help her, my thoughts are with right now and I hope you enjoy in time the memories that shes left you with it will get better I promise (((Hugs)))


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## Minxie (19 June 2012)

So sorry to read this.  You have shown incredible courage throughout and made the right decision at the right time.


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## tynedale (19 June 2012)

So very sorry.x


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## micramadam (19 June 2012)

Have been following this hoping that things would get better. So sorry to hear this but think you are very brave and strong and have made the best decision. (((Hugs)))


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## stolensilver (19 June 2012)

So sorry to read this.  RIP little lady.


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## Nicnac (19 June 2012)

So sorry to read the sad outcome


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## Cherrygarden (19 June 2012)

So, so sad, what a shame and a waste nothing baby should have to die, my heart hurts for you, the mare and her but at least her pain will be gone xx


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## widget (19 June 2012)

So sorry, thoughts with you and your mare x


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## Fools Motto (19 June 2012)

Very sad for all. Thoughts are with you. x


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## whisp&willow (19 June 2012)

what a shame.  i'm so sorry to hear that your beautiful foalie hasn't improved.  life is just so unfair at times.  

you did the right thing by giving her a chance, and i feel you have made the right decision for the wee lady.  

thoughts are with you, truly devastating, im so sorry.  

xxx


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## hobo (19 June 2012)

First time I have read this post. I am so sorry for your loss she looked a lovely foal. Well done for being brave about making the right chose.


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## Highlands (19 June 2012)

Tragic for all, so sorry


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## Jnhuk (19 June 2012)

You did everything you could for her including making the difficult decision at the right time.

Big hugs


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## lisa_dundee (20 June 2012)

Thankyou for all your comments, I can't stop crying x

I'll lend you for a little while, my Grandest Foal God said,
For you to love while she's alive, and mourn for when she's dead.
It may be one, or twenty years.
Or days or months, you see.
But will you 'till I take her back,
take care of her for me?
She'll bring you charms to gladden you,
and should her stay be brief,
You'll have those treasured memories
as solace for your grief.
I cannot promise she will stay,
since all from earth return.
But there are lessons taught on earth
I want this foal to learn.
I've looked the whole world over
in my search for teachers true
And from the throngs that crowd life's lanes,
with trust I've selected you.
Now, will you give her all your love,
nor think the labour vain,
Nor hate me when I come
to take her home again?
I know you'll give him tenderness,
and love will bloom each day,
And for the happiness you've known,
you will forever grateful stay.
But should I come and call for her
much sooner than you planned,
You'll brave the bitter grief that comes,
and maybe understand


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## Alec Swan (20 June 2012)

Lisa,

sometimes the hardest decisions are the best ones.  You've done the right thing.  Poor you and poor foal.

Alec.


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## toffeesmarty (20 June 2012)

Lisa,
Words are never enough at times like this but be proud of what you have done for her. ]You conuldn't have done anymore.


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## Aces_High (21 June 2012)

I haven't read all the posts but what about shockwave therapy?  I don't know where you are based but there are some equine vets around who do it.  Also get your farrier to look at her and discuss shoeing her with extensions.  Good luck.
I have just read the posts (I was on the first page so missed the posts above) - I am sorry to hear you had her PTS.  Very sad for you and all involved.


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## kerilli (21 June 2012)

Aces_High, you really should have read all the last few posts because then you would have known that she had to have the foal pts. 
So sorry for your loss, Lisa.


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## meesha (21 June 2012)

Beautiful poem, hope you are your mare are doing ok x thinking of you


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## lisa_dundee (21 June 2012)

It's ok Aces High and thanks for everyone's input, cassie is coping surprisingly well, she isn't distressed, she looks sad and depressed but I think she knew before us, I think she knew when she was born as just after she had her she never once tried to get the foal up and cassie is a very attentive mare and usually nipping their bums to get them up feeding x


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## lisa_dundee (29 July 2012)

After losing another foal yesterday I feel I should warn anyone using Thuja for sarcoids

Please click on the link and read my thread on the other forum

http://horsegossip.proboards.com/ind...&thread=135053

Thuja may not be what killed my foal but it is a possibility


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## Hurricanelady (30 July 2012)

Lisa so very sorry for the loss of your beautiful foal in such sad circumstances, thinking of you and her mum at this difficult and upsetting time


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