# American Horse Shopping explained with video.



## BunnyDog (26 March 2018)

So you guys know the deal from what I've said about how it worked with coming to buy Cudo. But a thread came up on my home forum board today that highlights perfectly what the typical American (in this case in California) is dealing with when wanting to buy a jumper with a decent budget. Pay attention to the disclosed prices for the animals in the videos given their skill levels.

https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/...ideos-jumper-prospects-tell-me-what-you-think

Emily


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## Willow1306 (26 March 2018)

Gosh - that does make depressing viewing. I&#8217;d not look twice at any of those horses, even at bargain basement price. I was surprised to see the second horse had allegedly been imported from Germany having done some dressage... 
I know half a dozen horses well within that price range that are sounder, better produced and have more quality without having to look outside my contacts/friendship group. 
Horse shopping Is a nightmare anywhere, but I can see why you came to the UK!


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## Orangehorse (26 March 2018)

I didn't see the prices, but I did agree with the comments.  I liked the second one, the chestnut best (but then I like a chestnut), but he looked the nicest overall.  Didn't really like the first and the third one was tilting his head although he was the strongest, probably done a bit more.  If looking specifically for a jumper I think I would have liked to see them jump, even if loose schooled, rather than potter over a few schooling fences.

Thanks for that!


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## conniegirl (26 March 2018)

The main question I have is does no one train their own horse over there? Why do you have to have it in a Programme with a professional trainer?

Given those prices for questionably sound horses I really don&#8217;t see why more don&#8217;t come over here for it. You can get what she is looking for for a 3rd of that price! And it will be far better schooled than any of those horses! Heck none of those would look out of place at a low level unaffiliated riding club over here!


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## conniegirl (26 March 2018)

Orangehorse said:



			I didn't see the prices, but I did agree with the comments.  I liked the second one, the chestnut best (but then I like a chestnut), but he looked the nicest overall.  Didn't really like the first and the third one was tilting his head although he was the strongest, probably done a bit more.  If looking specifically for a jumper I think I would have liked to see them jump, even if loose schooled, rather than potter over a few schooling fences.

Thanks for that!
		
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Between $35k and $45k apparently


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## VRIN (27 March 2018)

Looks like you could get a new job sourcing horses from UK!


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## ycbm (27 March 2018)

Are any of them sound?  Back end issues on the first two. Neck problem in the third?


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## splashgirl45 (27 March 2018)

i didnt like any of them, the chestnut seemed the best of a bad lot.  i thought horse A looked like he could have had a bit of acp or similar..i cant believe those prices.     Cudo is so much better than any of them, you did the right thing coming over here, hope you are getting on ok with him...keep us updated please


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## Red-1 (27 March 2018)

For this rider I would do horse no 2, the chestnut. 

To be fair to the horses the rider was inconsistent in the contact, and tipping the weight forward, it would have been interesting to see them with the more professional riders aboard. 

The first horse was just too much horse for this rider. 

The second two looked really kind and well trained to me. The rider was just enjoying the ride and not doing a deal to help and balance them.

Not that there was anything wrong with this rider, she was calm and kind, but not perhaps allowing the horses to show what they were truly capable of.

Of course they are more expensive than here, but finding horses here that would quietly and calmly pop round a few fences from canter with a passive rider would be hard too.


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## Colivet (27 March 2018)

None of them seemed to me to be what the lady is looking for and all are well overpriced.  But taking into account what seems to be her level of experience, it could be that she lacks the confidence and/or skill to shop abroad without the help of a good, and more importantly, honest agent who can match horse and rider well.   

Possible job opening Emily ??


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## MagicMelon (27 March 2018)

American prices have always been crazy though?  I used to go there a lot as a child and remember looking through the horse for sale ads thinking they were all a rip off!  Over there though, they seem to have much lower aspirations than here in general - a horse thats jumping 1m courses seems to be worth a fortune as perhaps thats what most amateurs are happy with, whereas in the UK we all generally expect most horses to be easily doing this just for a simple RC horse.

I quite liked the first one, he looked nice natured but not for anything remotely like those prices. He looked like a nice safe RC horse.


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## Orangehorse (27 March 2018)

VRIN said:



			Looks like you could get a new job sourcing horses from UK!
		
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That's what I thought.  Crazy prices for ordinary looking horses.


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## silv (27 March 2018)

Interesting thread, I know a few folk who have in the past made big money by selling their "trained" show jumpers and eventers to the USA for sale, but I was led to believe that market has dried up a bit as Americans were coming over here themselves (New Zealand) and doing their own shopping, or agents were coming shopping on an owners behalf or else buying young OTTB's with potential to take back, school and sell on.

Is there a shortage of horses in the USA to command these crazy prices?

 I thought the horses all looked very ordinary.  For that sort of money here you would get something  special with a decent set of results.


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## Sussexbythesea (28 March 2018)

Red-1 said:



			For this rider I would do horse no 2, the chestnut.

Not that there was anything wrong with this rider, she was calm and kind, but not perhaps allowing the horses to show what they were truly capable of.
		
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Having read the thread only B was ridden by the buyer.

When my sister in VA was looking at dressage horses to buy I told her to come here. Even with all the import costs a much better quality and trained Horse could be bought here or in Ireland. I looked at all the videos she sent me and really there was nothing much for 20-30,000 dollars that Id look at twice and that was before the value of the pound dropped.


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## BunnyDog (4 April 2018)

Just as an update we heard from the poster today. She had an additional ride on the A horse again and is going to get him vetted. 

Not many of us can believe it. 

Here's the video. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuGXqZbTW8I&feature=youtu.be


Emily


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## ycbm (4 April 2018)

Emily it's not sound, is it?  Dragging both back toes badly,  left even worse than right. Hopping occasionally on the back end too?


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## Red-1 (4 April 2018)

BunnyDog said:



			Just as an update we heard from the poster today. She had an additional ride on the A horse again and is going to get him vetted. 

Not many of us can believe it. 

Here's the video. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuGXqZbTW8I&feature=youtu.be


Emily
		
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I would be quite concerned that he had been sedated, the "fifth leg" dingle dangling is a bit of a giveaway. I would also question his fitness (soundless) he is not moving as he should.

Did you say this was the owner? The rider looks very tentative.

ETA - Of course, I do not know the horse or owners, and they are probably very honest, but if a horse moved like that and had a dangly 5th leg it is certainly something I would query with the vet!


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## Cortez (4 April 2018)

ycbm said:



			Emily it's not sound, is it?  Dragging both back toes badly,  left even worse than right. Hopping occasionally on the back end too?
		
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Dunno, but it looks doped! Can hardly move out of it's own way, and she's certainly not riding it at all.

Oops, I see Red-1 is on it already ^^^


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## Red-1 (4 April 2018)

Cortez said:



			Dunno, but it looks doped! Can hardly move out of it's own way, and she's certainly not riding it at all.

Oops, I see Red-1 is on it already ^^^
		
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Cynic that I am...


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## BunnyDog (4 April 2018)

Sorry. Got my video links confused....

Here's the new link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_lL62JulEE&feature=youtu.be

The rider is the potential buyer. 

We had discussed the 'dangly bits' quite a bit and us far more cynical Americans were all out saying... "We think think it's been drugged."

That seems not to have put her off though. Quite a number of my friends are believing it likely that the trainer may have made a deal with the seller. The price is high even for California. And the horse is so green for a 7 yr old. 

I would not say he's sound no. 

Em


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## siennamiller (4 April 2018)

What were people&#8217;s opinions on her trainer? The way they rode?


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## VRIN (4 April 2018)

I guess one can only hope the vet has not done a deal with anyone!?!?!


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## BunnyDog (4 April 2018)

Here's the trainer riding the horse. 

Didn't blow me away but then the horse isn't that complicated. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG4vpVI7weE&feature=youtu.be


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## Red-1 (4 April 2018)

BunnyDog said:



			Sorry. Got my video links confused....

Here's the new link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_lL62JulEE&feature=youtu.be

The rider is the potential buyer. 

We had discussed the 'dangly bits' quite a bit and us far more cynical Americans were all out saying... "We think think it's been drugged."

That seems not to have put her off though. Quite a number of my friends are believing it likely that the trainer may have made a deal with the seller. The price is high even for California. And the horse is so green for a 7 yr old. 

I would not say he's sound no. 

Em
		
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He is more awake in this one, but I would still say his undercarriage was still more relaxed that normal.

I would doubt he would pass a vet.

I think the lady will find she is over-horsed with an explosive horse. 

If I were advising the lady we would buy an intermediate horse, as in one to get her more mileage but that would not compete 1.30. I think she would have a lot more fun with one to kick on round 1m courses and to learn to ride the horse forward onto a contact.

If she insisted on this horse I would want her to ride it on the day of the vetting to make sure the 'ride' was the same, and have the bloods taken and stored. I suspect on vetting day he may be somewhat unsettled.


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## VRIN (4 April 2018)

I suspect she will find the jumping a bit of a challenge - it looked fairly onward bound at times when the buyer was riding - I suspect the bucking that we saw with the trainer is not unusual. But time will tel..


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## Red-1 (4 April 2018)

BunnyDog said:



			Here's the trainer riding the horse. 

Didn't blow me away but then the horse isn't that complicated. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG4vpVI7weE&feature=youtu.be

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Yeah, my previous comments still stand. The trainer can ride but is keeping a lid on it mostly. The lady will not, she will have a horrid time. IMO. 

I am astonished, if I got the facts right, that this is a 7yo, intended to jump 1.30s, and costs $40,000?


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## be positive (4 April 2018)

VRIN said:



			I suspect she will find the jumping a bit of a challenge - it looked fairly onward bound at times when the buyer was riding - I suspect the bucking that we saw with the trainer is not unusual. But time will tel..
		
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Every time it actually used itself over a fence it bucked, when restricted and not allowed to move forward, most of the time with both riders, it didn't but as the fences go up I suspect it will be far too much for her and may explain why it appeared to be sedated in the first video, the buyer seems to love him judging by the fussing after it managed to get to the other side of the tiny fences so as she obviously has more money than sense she will probably live to regret it.

 I certainly think the trainer is getting a nice present out of it as there is no way I would advise the purchase if she were a client of mine it is far too green, doesn't look sound and is not likely to carry her round a course unless doping is allowed in competition.


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## VRIN (4 April 2018)

be positive said:



			Every time it actually used itself over a fence it bucked, when restricted and not allowed to move forward, most of the time with both riders, it didn't but as the fences go up I suspect it will be far too much for her and may explain why it appeared to be sedated in the first video, the buyer seems to love him judging by the fussing after it managed to get to the other side of the tiny fences so as she obviously has more money than sense she will probably live to regret it.

 I certainly think the trainer is getting a nice present out of it as there is no way I would advise the purchase if she were a client of mine it is far too green, doesn't look sound and is not likely to carry her round a course unless doping is allowed in competition.
		
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I got the sense that the rider was not the most confident of riders but from the patting was feeling 'safe' with the horse which I suspect is what is motivating her to buy it. Presumably she is keen to buy but feels she has limited choices. Think as said before there is a definite business opportunity there!


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## be positive (4 April 2018)

VRIN said:



			I got the sense that the rider was not the most confident of riders but from the patting was feeling 'safe' with the horse which I suspect is what is motivating her to buy it. Presumably she is keen to buy but feels she has limited choices. Think as said before there is a definite business opportunity there!
		
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I agree she thought she felt safe and from the sound of things there are very limited choices in the US, when they have to jump 1.30 it is never going to be easy to find something for a rider that lacks confidence and should really be looking for a nice schoolmaster to pop round 80-90 for a few years, which is what we would buy over here and then move on if ready.


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## VRIN (4 April 2018)

be positive said:



			I agree she thought she felt safe and from the sound of things there are very limited choices in the US, when they have to jump 1.30 it is never going to be easy to find something for a rider that lacks confidence and should really be looking for a nice schoolmaster to pop round 80-90 for a few years, which is what we would buy over here and then move on if ready.
		
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If she is looking to find something that can jump 1.30, this is a very poor choice -it is not proven at this height and I don't think there has been any evidence to suggest it has the potential???


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## SOS (4 April 2018)

Now I am no expert when it comes to buying horses or showjumpers... However if I was paying tens of thousands of dollars for a 7yo, 130 potential horse I would want to see an established canter and it nicely popping some small jumps. As others pointed out anytime it jumped properly it bucked which would also worry me. The 1ft jumps it did the rest of the time were basically canter strides for a horse that size and it became unbalanced even doing them. Would like to see it over a few canter poles, I reckon it would break to trot quite quickly. The riders also asked very little of the horse, I do wonder how it would look when sent forward.

Backend looks dodgy too. Would the stiffness and toe dragging be related to it perhaps being doped or lameness?


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## ycbm (4 April 2018)

BunnyDog said:



			Here's the trainer riding the horse. 

Didn't blow me away but then the horse isn't that complicated. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG4vpVI7weE&feature=youtu.be

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The horse is not sound, not happy, and there isn't a hope in hell of it ever jumping 1 m 30 with the buyer.

 I'll take any size bet anyone wants to lay on it!


I hope for the buyer's sake that it fails the vet.


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## conniegirl (4 April 2018)

I think my latest venture will go well then.
I&#8217;m going to buy questionably sound at best if not outright lame, poorly schooled but vaguely athletic looking riding club horses for a couple of hundred £ each. Export them to the US and sell them to nervous novices by telling them they will jump 1.30m. 
They will never cotton on that the horse hasn&#8217;t a hope in hell of scrambling over that height as the rider will never get to that point!

The trainer was vastly underwhelming as a rider, the horse needed to be ridden forwards and helped to balance itself!


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## hollyandivy123 (5 April 2018)

many years ago i went to the states for work, to the opportunity to catch up with an old school friend and met wife who had a couple of horses. went to meet them both, one was imported from Europe as a dressage school master, who had been a stallion up until import. i met a sweet, pigeon-ed toes, over the knee with a slight cow hock, with inconsistent tracking when ridden.........it cost her about 80k to buy and import and had bought unseen through her trainer. stood there thinking well there is hope for the two in the field at home.........maybe a quick advert placed in the states.........................?


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## SpringArising (5 April 2018)

https://youtu.be/KuGXqZbTW8I?t=1m37s is where you look and think jeez. 

I'm also interested in ConnieGirl's question - it seems like in the US, EVERYONE has a trainer who they work virtually side by side with? And no one trains their own horse, alone? Why is that?


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## ihatework (5 April 2018)

SpringArising said:



https://youtu.be/KuGXqZbTW8I?t=1m37s is where you look and think jeez. 

I'm also interested in ConnieGirl's question - it seems like in the US, EVERYONE has a trainer who they work virtually side by side with? And no one trains their own horse, alone? Why is that?
		
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And to take that even further, for an affluent and large country who clearly spend significant amounts of money on both horses and trainer networks, why does this not translate to them being consistently competitive in the Olympic disciplines at international level. Really the US should be dominating, but they aren&#8217;t


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## Leaping (5 April 2018)

SpringArising said:



https://youtu.be/KuGXqZbTW8I?t=1m37s is where you look and think jeez. 

I'm also interested in ConnieGirl's question - it seems like in the US, EVERYONE has a trainer who they work virtually side by side with? And no one trains their own horse, alone? Why is that?
		
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Because that is how it is done in a lot of countries, most of Europe runs like that.  You will keep your horse at your trainer's yard and they will come to shows with you. Some countries I believe you can't personally enter shows, only your trainer can (and you need to have a license to compete).  

The UK system of people muddling along, thinking they have regular training if they see their trainer once a month and going off to compete as and when on their own is unusual globally.


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## SpringArising (5 April 2018)

Leaping said:



			Because that is how it is done in a lot of countries, most of Europe runs like that.  You will keep your horse at your trainer's yard and they will come to shows with you. Some countries I believe you can't personally enter shows, only your trainer can (and you need to have a license to compete).
		
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But in the US, there seems to be a HUGE emphasis on 'Will be kept at XTrainer's stables, will be trained by XTrainer', etc. It seems as though there's a lack of confidence (or common sense...) from the people who actually buy the horses. On the whole they seem to take the horse business FAR more seriously than we do here. Even if a horse misses a lead change or something that is trivial for the majority of us, it seems like it's a huge problem for them.

I'm not sure which areas of Europe you're talking about, but having lived in France for six years it was nothing like that, although admittedly they can be a bit more pedantic than we are when it comes to training the horses. Yes you need a license to compete but that's nothing to do with your trainer.


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## Leaping (5 April 2018)

SpringArising said:



			But in the US, there seems to be a HUGE emphasis on 'Will be kept at XTrainer's stables, will be trained by XTrainer', etc. It seems as though there's a lack of confidence (or common sense...) from the people who actually buy the horses. On the whole they seem to take the horse business FAR more seriously than we do here. Even if a horse misses a lead change or something that is trivial for the majority of us, it seems like it's a huge problem for them.
		
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I am guessing (as I am no expert) but I believe in hunter jumpers the style and way of going is also very important as opposed to pure show jumping where its just clear rounds.  Hunter Jumpers competitions have big prize money and horses can sell for a lot of money, clean changes are essential I believe to win the classes, as is rhythm and other fundamental training areas.  

From what I have read the riders also have to be stylish (which is where the whole crest release thing came from) but are not always effective.  

I guess the closest thing in the UK is the old equitation jumping/riding club style jumping classes (which certainly don't have big money prizes!) 




			I'm not sure which areas of Europe you're talking about, but having lived in France for six years it was nothing like that, although admittedly they can be a bit more pedantic than we are when it comes to training the horses. Yes you need a license to compete but that's nothing to do with your trainer.
		
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[/quote]
My background is more dressage, but certainly Germany works like that in the main, as does Switzerland and I believe Italy and parts of France as well as Holland.  Its far more common to be on a trainers yard and train regularly with your trainer and discuss show schedules (and as above, some of those countries require your trainer to do the entries) and have your trainer at the show to warm up and discuss performance.  Its far less common for people to be on DIY mixed yards without a regular trainer and go off to compete at affiliated shows and championships without a trainer.  

I am not saying one way is better than the other, just there are cultural differences.


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## Bernster (5 April 2018)

I quite like the idea of having that much support from a trainer.  I am currently in the 'muddling along' at competitions category and I'm sure we are not doing as well as we could for that reason.  Although I suspect my trainer would come with me if I asked (and paid?) but she's busying doing her own competing too.  She's on my yard but that's convenient, not by design.


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## BunnyDog (5 April 2018)

Good Morning Everyone. 

Sorry the time change keeps me silent as you all are asking great questions. I will do my best to answer..

1) Trainers like velcro: There are MANY reasons for this and they cover a broad range of reasons. In no particular order:

   a) Lack of land. We are getting more and more housing developments and losing farms. It's not at a crisis point yet but as such people don't have land and so they board their animals with folks who do. 90% of boarding is with a person who is a trainer or who has trainers who work for them or who come and teach. Thus the average rider is typically boarding a horse and there is a trainer or some system where their animal lives. 

  b) Competitive goals. The rider bought a horse to go compete with and they want to do better than muddling along on their own. So they go train and board with someone specifically for that reason. It could be a local trainer or on up to Kent Farrington. 

  c) Companionship. Let's face it, even if you can ride your own horse and train it yourself sometimes it's nice to be a part of a group of similar minded folks. The whole team aspect and unity within a barn that goes to shows together and is there for one another is a comforting thing for some who are facing a tough enough hobby. 

Onto the next topic, lack of dominance in the Olympics etc. 

Ok so the thing about American riders is that we often forget that the biggest American discipline is hunters. And on average the most membership is at the 3'3" - 3'6"(1-1.08m) level. There is no representation of that sport at the Olympics or WEG or anything beyond national American championships. Now it's true that the Equitation parts of these competitions are feeding our future show jumper supplies but by and large there is a whole section of riders who are very highly esteemed who will never go to the Olympics. So then looking at the makeup of all American riders who jump, only about 40% of them are in the discipline that goes to the International events. Of that only a small number are competitive internationally, and of that only a very very small number can afford to compete internationally. So I don't think it's so much a lack of dominance as a country but rather a lack of a system that funnels the most talented riders and horses to the top. We talk about it a lot. Here's the whole transcript of a recent meeting we held at Wellington to talk about how to ensure that real people can compete at the top.  https://www.phelpssports.com/jumping-future-panel-discussion-top-sport/

But as you all can imagine talking only does so much. Our shows are VERY expensive. 1 day for me doing 3 classes at 1.20 that's a show recognized by the USEF, 2 miles from my house will cost me $345 in . There's one stakes class in there but at this particular show the entry is $185 for that class. If you win you get $200 so a 'profit' of $15. If you are 2nd you win 190, so a 'profit' of $5. If you finish 3rd - 8th you essentially did the class for free as all of these get $185. I give the show credit it's a creative way to have a $1500 class and only have to pay $20. If you get 9 entries, the show makes a profit. 

If I did the same idea at Wellington (God help me) just for the privilege you I would be paying $1360 including the mandated on the grounds stabling of $450 for the week. (You're not allowed to trailer in and out) Now admittedly their stakes class would actually pay a bit more and the top 12 will either profit or break even. The Winner - 7th actually profit quite a bit over the entry fee of $365. 

So a large part of who can actually rise in the sport is based on who can afford to. And the answer is that not many of us can swing it all. I know I will struggle to do more than probably 1 local 1 day show a month. 

My one 'big' show is coming in (so far) at around $550 without including the class fees (as the prize list isn't out yet) but will probably be an additional $400. Then include the diesel ($150) and 4 day housing ($550) and meals ($200) So it gets pretty expensive in a hurry. I would love to do lots of big shows but as you can see... you have to be VERY well off to swing these costs on a bi weekly basis. And that's only 1 horse for 3 classes. Not a lot of room for learning if you make mistakes. 

Emily


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## BunnyDog (5 April 2018)

Also for what it's worth there has been a flurry of people on that thread today advising the OP NOT to buy this horse, or if they do to vet it to the hilt and insure the heck out of it. 

Em


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## be positive (5 April 2018)

I think we forget how lucky we are over here with our vast range of competitive levels, the PC/RC's, the local shows that get people started and the numerous BE/BD/BS venues that are within easy reach of most of us so we can drive there do a class and get home within a few hours, it is why so many eventers are based here.

As for keeping horses with trainers, we have a long standing tradition of keeping horses at home/ in small yards/ with friends or renting a paddock, it suits our ways and makes ownership more accessible by keeping costs down for many people.  

I don't think the buyer is going to hear anything negative unless it does fail the vetting, which on the evidence so far it probably should.


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## BunnyDog (5 April 2018)

I apologize because possibly my post wasn't as clear. 

I gave examples of the cost of recognized shows that would be the path of progressions to get to say the Olympics. 

We have a TON of unrecognized options because people got very tired of spending all their money on shows when there's really not much gotten in return. Eventing has unrecognized events, Dressage, hunters, Jumpers all have schooling shows. Combined tests exist without recognition. 

There are options for spending less, but these aren't routes that can take you to say the international level alone. You absolutely can get a base in the cheaper options but this is where we are. 

As far as we should be dominating as a country in international competitions, I would say that with the money element we have a lot of trouble getting out of our own way. Though I will profess that when I bought Cudo and realized I had to teach him what a series of trot poles was, for a second I got cocky and was like "Wow...I can't believe he doesn't know this" but just as quickly I recalled the English(where he came from) and German(where he was born) dominance in jumpers and I pretty much just flushed that thought out of my head. We all have different methods and in the end they all work to get our horses to the big shows. 

Em


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## TheMule (5 April 2018)

I have sympathy with the difficult task of finding a reasonably priced horse over tehre, but this girl is in serious denial about this horse and seemingly about to make one big expensive mistake. Here's hoping the vet knows what they're doing!


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## VRIN (5 April 2018)

BunnyDog said:



			I apologize because possibly my post wasn't as clear. 

I gave examples of the cost of recognized shows that would be the path of progressions to get to say the Olympics. 

We have a TON of unrecognized options because people got very tired of spending all their money on shows when there's really not much gotten in return. Eventing has unrecognized events, Dressage, hunters, Jumpers all have schooling shows. Combined tests exist without recognition. 

There are options for spending less, but these aren't routes that can take you to say the international level alone. You absolutely can get a base in the cheaper options but this is where we are. 

As far as we should be dominating as a country in international competitions, I would say that with the money element we have a lot of trouble getting out of our own way. Though I will profess that when I bought Cudo and realized I had to teach him what a series of trot poles was, for a second I got cocky and was like "Wow...I can't believe he doesn't know this" but just as quickly I recalled the English(where he came from) and German(where he was born) dominance in jumpers and I pretty much just flushed that thought out of my head. We all have different methods and in the end they all work to get our horses to the big shows. 

Em
		
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I think lots of people in the UK do work with trot poles and canter poles- particularly when they have a youngster. I would be surprised if Cudo had never done trot poles or grids with poles etc...


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## BunnyDog (5 April 2018)

VRIN said:



			I think lots of people in the UK do work with trot poles and canter poles- particularly when they have a youngster. I would be surprised if Cudo had never done trot poles or grids with poles etc...
		
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I just went off what she told me. She hadn't done poles nor trotting fences. Now it's a touch more confusing as she thought she was the one who taught him to jump and she probably did the bulk of the work. But I found out in my research phase before purchase that he'd shown over fences in Holland. But she never knew that. She said he was as green as grass when she started jumping him and had bought him as a 'dressage' horse. But when I inquired they had no dressage competitions in Holland with him ever. It was kind of odd. 

Em


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## be positive (5 April 2018)

BunnyDog said:



			I just went off what she told me. She hadn't done poles nor trotting fences. Now it's a touch more confusing as she thought she was the one who taught him to jump and she probably did the bulk of the work. But I found out in my research phase before purchase that he'd shown over fences in Holland. But she never knew that. She said he was as green as grass when she started jumping him and had bought him as a 'dressage' horse. But when I inquired they had no dressage competitions in Holland with him ever. It was kind of odd. 

Em
		
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That sounds unusual for an amateur rider to not start a young horse with poles and trotting into fences most will take things fairly slowly, I did have a horse come here from a pro that had been out jumping, picking up prize money, it had no idea what he was doing on the approach, he had just been held together in a vague canter, it got to the other side because he had the scope and pointed to the next, this was supposedly being produced for a young rider to take on, I had to go back to basics to give the rider a chance, a pro can get away with a few short cuts but most of us do loads of work on the basics.


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## Cortez (5 April 2018)

BunnyDog said:



			I just went off what she told me. She hadn't done poles nor trotting fences. Now it's a touch more confusing as she thought she was the one who taught him to jump and she probably did the bulk of the work. But I found out in my research phase before purchase that he'd shown over fences in Holland. But she never knew that. She said he was as green as grass when she started jumping him and had bought him as a 'dressage' horse. But when I inquired they had no dressage competitions in Holland with him ever. It was kind of odd. 

Em
		
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Not odd at all. Lots of people buy horses that were not destined to be dressage horses in Europe, to do dressage - that's because most horses on the continent are started properly (i.e. dressage) and will be capable of doing a 2nd - 3rd level test (Novice/Elem in UK) well before they are asked to jump.


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## Polos (11 April 2018)

all I can say is wow

Surely if you are looking for a 1.20/1.30 (not that she has the experience) horse you would be jumping at least a 1.15/1.20 course on it. All I see is a woman aimlessly cantering round whilst the horse falls over some 40cm fences. Really struggling to see how this horse is worth over 35K, I wouldn't pay 5k for it. 

All I see is this ending in Disaster. The horse looks off and she looks as if shes a relatively inexperienced rider that is over horsing herself. Not sure how the trainer is keen for this sale to go through unless there is some sort of financial incentive in it for them? 

I did read the original thread on COH and the comments she made about most of the viewing was spent hand walking the horses round etc and not knowing what to look for in a jumping horse. It really doesn't seem as if she knows what shes doing


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## SpringArising (12 April 2018)

Polos said:



			all I can say is wow

Surely if you are looking for a 1.20/1.30 (not that she has the experience) horse you would be jumping at least a 1.15/1.20 course on it. All I see is a woman aimlessly cantering round whilst the horse falls over some 40cm fences. Really struggling to see how this horse is worth over 35K, I wouldn't pay 5k for it.
		
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After looking at the rider I wondered how the heck she was going to stay on if he put in another buck like that.


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## siennamiller (12 April 2018)

Have you all seen the latest comments on there about this forum?


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## DirectorFury (13 April 2018)

siennamiller said:



			Have you all seen the latest comments on there about this forum?
		
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A link for those who find COTH a nightmare to navigate: https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/...ideos-jumper-prospects-tell-me-what-you-think


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## siennamiller (17 April 2018)

Just for an update, she bought horse A, the bay one.


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## Keith_Beef (17 April 2018)

siennamiller said:



			Have you all seen the latest comments on there about this forum?
		
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No, I haven't.

I went looking for them, and all I found was a reference inside what is purported to be an article by Jeremy Clarkson, copied from ther Torygraph.


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## conniegirl (17 April 2018)

siennamiller said:



			Just for an update, she bought horse A, the bay one.
		
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Oh dear! That one was the lame/possibly drugged one right?

I&#8217;m still in shock over the prices! 
This has just popped up in the side bar and looks lovely. I recon by the time you added currency conversion and shipping he would still be cheaper than the one she bought and a hell of a lot more likely to do what she wants it to
https://classifieds.horseandhound.c...445.443806563.1520322909-579370074.1441818945


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## SpringArising (17 April 2018)

conniegirl said:



			Oh dear! That one was the lame/possibly drugged one right?

I&#8217;m still in shock over the prices! 
This has just popped up in the side bar and looks lovely. I recon by the time you added currency conversion and shipping he would still be cheaper than the one she bought and a hell of a lot more likely to do what she wants it to
https://classifieds.horseandhound.c...445.443806563.1520322909-579370074.1441818945

Click to expand...

I used to gasp at the prices of some of the things on HorseQuest. Never again will I take our prices for granted!


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## 9tails (17 April 2018)

conniegirl said:



			Oh dear! That one was the lame/possibly drugged one right?

I&#8217;m still in shock over the prices! 
This has just popped up in the side bar and looks lovely. I recon by the time you added currency conversion and shipping he would still be cheaper than the one she bought and a hell of a lot more likely to do what she wants it to
https://classifieds.horseandhound.c...445.443806563.1520322909-579370074.1441818945

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Ah, but it's a chestnut mare.


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## BunnyDog (17 April 2018)

Speaking honestly, we have a very very big aversion to Chestnut mares as a country. They're easily the hardest type of horse to sell. Even the super talented ones. 

The comments about this forum are on page 7. 

https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/...jumper-prospects-tell-me-what-you-think/page7

But then we all got distracted when someone was talking about being foolish to buy an American Saddlebred in England. 

Em


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## Meowy Catkin (17 April 2018)

I really don't understand the anti chestnut mare thing at all. It is bad enough here but it sounds like it is worse over the pond.  It's some weird combination of sexism and colourism. 

Chestnut + mare = bad
Chestnut + gelding = good
Grey (but genetically chestnut) + mare = good
Palomino (genetically chestnut + cream) + mare = good etc...

It makes no sense, it is prejudice, purely and simply.

My chestnut mare is worth her weight in gold to me.


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## 9tails (17 April 2018)

BunnyDog said:



			But then we all got distracted when someone was talking about being foolish to buy an American Saddlebred in England.
		
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Ladylexie does love her saddlebred.  She got a lovely slapdown from vxf111.


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## Keith_Beef (17 April 2018)

BunnyDog said:



			Speaking honestly, we have a very very big aversion to Chestnut mares as a country. They're easily the hardest type of horse to sell. Even the super talented ones. 

The comments about this forum are on page 7. 

https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/...jumper-prospects-tell-me-what-you-think/page7

But then we all got distracted when someone was talking about being foolish to buy an American Saddlebred in England. 

Em
		
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Thanks for the pointer; I had skipped a few pages and missed the discussions both of H&H and of the American Saddlebreds.

I think that the posters in the thread were really quite relaxed and restrained. Much more so than posters on some other American sites I frequent... :rolleyes3:


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## Keith_Beef (17 April 2018)

Faracat said:



			I really don't understand the anti chestnut mare thing at all. It is bad enough here but it sounds like it is worse over the pond.  It's some weird combination of sexism and colourism. 

Chestnut + mare = bad
Chestnut + gelding = good
Grey (but genetically chestnut) + mare = good
Palomino (genetically chestnut + cream) + mare = good etc...

It makes no sense, it is prejudice, purely and simply.

My chestnut mare is worth her weight in gold to me.
		
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There's no arguing with people over personal preferences like that. It's like blokes preferring blondes over brunettes, or over redheads.


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## Orangehorse (17 April 2018)

I read a few pages, and I think that the Americans are right about successful show jumpers in the USA.  There have been very many extremely successful show jumpers from America, over a great many years too.


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## Meowy Catkin (17 April 2018)

It's more than just a personal preference though so I don't think that your example is a direct equivalent. But you are right, there's no point in arguing with people who are set in their minds however wrong, biased or idiotic their reasons are.


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## siennamiller (17 April 2018)

Yes  that&#8217;s the one. Presumably she had him vetted, so any drugs would show up? 
The picture of the Irish mare is really good, and I thought, oooh she&#8217;s gorgeous, but having watched the video, I did not like her way of going, her canter wasn&#8217;t very nice, she loooked quite scratchy in front  and £17,500 for a horse that comes back to trot on corners?!


conniegirl said:



			Oh dear! That one was the lame/possibly drugged one right?

I&#8217;m still in shock over the prices! 
This has just popped up in the side bar and looks lovely. I recon by the time you added currency conversion and shipping he would still be cheaper than the one she bought and a hell of a lot more likely to do what she wants it to
https://classifieds.horseandhound.c...445.443806563.1520322909-579370074.1441818945

Click to expand...


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## BunnyDog (17 April 2018)

Just to clarify the current American color preferences:

OTTB:
Dapple Grey and over 16.2 IDEAL Geldings
Dapple Greay under 16.1 and Mares - not as much
Dark Bay gelding and over 16.2 with lots of Chrome - Second choice of ideal
Same in a mare, slightly less desirable
Chestnut Geldings with chrome over 16.2 -least desirable of all geldings. Liver chestnuts a bit more. 
Chestnut mares with or without chrome... any size under 17 hands, very challenging to sell. 

NON Ottb's

All colors and sizes EXCEPT chestnut mares- Sell relatively easily. More so if came in on a plane
Chestnut mares - Good luck unless marketed by a big name trainer. 

Em


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## conniegirl (17 April 2018)

siennamiller said:



			Yes  that&#8217;s the one. Presumably she had him vetted, so any drugs would show up? 
The picture of the Irish mare is really good, and I thought, oooh she&#8217;s gorgeous, but having watched the video, I did not like her way of going, her canter wasn&#8217;t very nice, she loooked quite scratchy in front  and £17,500 for a horse that comes back to trot on corners?!
		
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The flatwork video is very stuffy but if you look at the jumping videos she is a lot more forwards and her paces far better. I think it would be a fairly easy fix by not hanging on to the front end quite as much


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## SpringArising (17 April 2018)

BunnyDog said:



			Chestnut Geldings with chrome over 16.2 -least desirable of all geldings. Liver chestnuts a bit more. 
Chestnut mares with or without chrome... any size under 17 hands, very challenging to sell. 

NON Ottb's

All colors and sizes EXCEPT chestnut mares- Sell relatively easily. More so if came in on a plane
Chestnut mares - Good luck unless marketed by a big name trainer. 

Em
		
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What's the reasoning for the chestnut prejudice? Is it because they are deemed less trainable, or is it an aesthetic thing?

Chestnuts are my favourite!


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## BunnyDog (17 April 2018)

Start here and read all the posts. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=che...AhWuwFkKHXq9CsMQrQIITygEMAM&biw=1920&bih=1014


In short, it's been a thing long enough that we can'd seem to undo it. 

Em


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## 9tails (18 April 2018)

It's true that when a ginger plays up, even in the UK, it's because it's ginger.  If that ginger is also a mare, then the prejudice comes out.  Mine is dark liver chestnut, with lots of chrome, so gets away with playing up as just being energetic. She's not orange enough. But if her ginger neighbour did the same, she'd be labelled dangerous.


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## SpringArising (18 April 2018)

BunnyDog said:



			Start here and read all the posts. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=che...AhWuwFkKHXq9CsMQrQIITygEMAM&biw=1920&bih=1014


In short, it's been a thing long enough that we can'd seem to undo it. 

Em
		
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Ah! So a training thing. 

We actually do have that in the UK about chestnut mares too, but to a way lesser extent!


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## BunnyDog (18 April 2018)

SpringArising said:



			Ah! So a training thing. 

We actually do have that in the UK about chestnut mares too, but to a way lesser extent!
		
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I looked at a lovely chestnut mare in Ireland. I just couldn't do it. I knew that unlike every other horse I was looking at,  her value would plummet once she landed in the USA. Sad because she was fun and had a fairly expansive record. 

Em


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## Keith_Beef (19 April 2018)

9tails said:



			It's true that when a ginger plays up, even in the UK, it's because it's ginger.  If that ginger is also a mare, then the prejudice comes out.  Mine is dark liver chestnut, with lots of chrome, so gets away with playing up as just being energetic. She's not orange enough. But if her ginger neighbour did the same, she'd be labelled dangerous.
		
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When I was a kid, that was a common prejudice in school against ginger-haired kids. There weren't many (and I wasn't one of them), but they suffered at tha hands of both other kids and teachers.

That's changed in my lifetime; I have two redhead children, and they've never suffered bullying from the other kids over it, let alone from staff.

So maybe there's hope for the chestnut and ginger mares, yet...


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## ycbm (19 April 2018)

Am I the only one who doesn't think the prejudice against chestnut mares is completely baseless?

I've had many horses, and among them the bright chestnuts  have been the least easy to train. So much so that I've had to promise my OH never to buy another  bright chestnut. If you add the sensitivity of a mare to that mix, it would, in my experience, increase the risk that an ordinary owner will and up with a horse they find too difficult considerably.

Of course, most of them are fine. This is only a matter of percentages. But in my experience, the percentage of bright chestnut that will give you trouble, compared with the percentage of bays, is higher. 

Is  there any research anyone knows of?

I asked an anesthetist a while ago  if they really do give more anesthetic to redhead humans, and he said they did, but that it was frowned on to talk about it.


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## be positive (19 April 2018)

I have 5 chestnuts here out of 7 on the yard, my oldie is very bright with loads of white he was one of the easiest I have ever had but was brought up and started correctly, he came to me as a 5 year old just backed from his breeder, of the others they are all straightforward apart from 1 that we had in as a 5 year old for schooling and came back with serious SA from living alone for 5 years, he is an easy ride but tricky on the ground at times. 
My only chestnut mare is a sec a who doesn't do much but is the sweetest natured pony who is extremely intuitive and should probably be a therapy pony, my experience with chestnut mares of a larger model has been limited because I often buy to sell and know they are going to be more tricky to move on so I have always avoided them, it is not just the US that has a prejudice.


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## milliepops (19 April 2018)

I've had a few chestnuts, I had a TB pony when I was a kid and he was wild, but that was just the way he'd been ridden all of his life.
The 2 mares I have now are both a little tricky, one much more than the other, but again they are products of their early life so not really a fair test.

I've known some big orange geldings that are just the kindest, most genuine easy souls, all of them Irish draft to a degree and not what I would describe as particularly sensitive  

We have 4 other chestnut girls on the yard at the moment, 3 are very feisty but that's their breeding and they would be the same in any other colour, the other is kind and dobbinish... I'm not sure that there's a lot of truth in the chestnut mare myth tbh


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