# Sugar beet and Foals/weanlings?



## arwenplusone (4 December 2007)

I have always had the opinion that you shouldn't feed horses under 9 months or so Sugarbeet as their digestive system is not properly set up to cope with it.

However,  I'm just reading posts here and it seems weanlings are often fed on it.  I feed it to all my horses as I believe it to be an equine 'superfood' (lol) since it gets digested in both parts of the gut but don't currently feed it to my foal. 

What do you guys think? 

Thanks


----------



## Maesfen (4 December 2007)

It's a strict No No here for anything under 8 months (always been told 7 months was the cut off point so I add another month just to be sure they're safe!) so in truth I tend to not feed it at all to foals until the new year.  I was originally told this by renowned stud vet so his warnings were good enough for me!

It worries me when, like you I see people happily feeding sugar beet to foals but apart from warning them there is not much we can do about it; it's their foal and choice at the end of the day if they choose to ignore it.


----------



## Irishcobs (4 December 2007)

Eeek really? I didn't no that. Our foals at work ate their mums feed with sugar beet in and get some with their feed now, they would be about 7/8 months old now. 
Is it really bad for them?


----------



## PrincessDana (4 December 2007)

I fed sugar beet to my 6 month old colt. I have never heard of it being bad for babies?? Why is this? 

I spoke to a few feed companies before deciding on which mix to go for and told them i'd be mixing it in with Alfa A and sugar beet...they never said anything about it being harmful  
	
	
		
		
	


	





I feel guilty now, but in saying that he's 2 now and never had a problem.


----------



## Maggie2 (4 December 2007)

I understand that unmolassed is fine though, and it is tied up with the change to hind gut digestion, which doesn't take place until foal is older.

But since most foals are eating fibre in the form of hay or haylage from a very early age, I don't think it is such a big issue.


----------



## PrincessDana (4 December 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I understand that unmolassed is fine though, and it is tied up with the change to hind gut digestion, which doesn't take place until foal is older.

But since most foals are eating fibre in the form of hay or haylage from a very early age, I don't think it is such a big issue. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh thats good. Mine were all fed the unmolassed shreds. Dont feel so guilty now


----------



## william99 (5 December 2007)

I too have fed sugar beet to my foals, no more for them now


----------



## pocomoto (6 December 2007)

Does anybody have any reference for  where this has come from and the reason for the need not to feed sugar beet?  or is it a "rural myth".

Lon D. Lewis Notes the mares milk in the first two months should supply all the foals nutritional needs and all its mineral needs for the first four months. He also notes that foals will taste hay and short feed of their mother from a couple of days old and at the age of 4 months it will spend 50% of its time grazing compared with its mothers 70%.  

Certainly from about 8 to 10 weeks old coinciding with the drop in milk production a foal is eating increasing amounts of grass to supplement mothers milk and if they are capable of processing this fibre sugar mix then sugar beet should not be a problem.  In fact I would have said that it would be easier on the system than hay at this stage of development as it is more like the natural forage of choice, grass having a high water content, bearing in mind foals on a good milk intake dont drink. 

Horses have evolved as fibre eaters and as a feedstuff Sugar beet pulp falls between a forage and a concentrate with a similar energy value to oats, but its energy comes from digestible fibre and not from starch.  You will see fairly young foals eating their dams droppings to gain the necessary micro organisms to aid their own fibre digestion.

With this in mind I can find no contra indications to feeding sugar beet (soaked of course) to foals  on the grounds that their digestive tract is incapable of processing it .  There are many papers on nutrition and articles on raising orphaned foals where they recommend it.

So is it the molasses?  This gets a bad name and contrary to popular belief is not pure sugar, but it is 65% .  I pinched the following from Spillers.

The table below indicates the sugar content of common ingredients in a horses ration:

Feed         Intake (kg fresh) Sugar supply Tsp/equivalent 
Grass               35                    1000g           1 bag 
Hay                   6                      150g           30 tsp 
Cool Mix            1                        90g           18 tsp
 Molassed chaff 0.5                     100g           20 tsp 
Mol sugar beet    2                      100g           20 tsp

Surprising isn't it?  Many stud mixes utilise molasses and are fed to young foals.  Equine Nutritionalist  Melyni Worth, Ph.D. does advise anyone with non TB foals to "Stick to a LOW GLYCEMIC DIET. Stay away from molasses and grain" to avoid developmental growth disorders.  In an article entitled FEEDING YOUR FOAL FOR SOUND AND SAFE GROWTH she recommends a low glycemic diet and defines it as "high in fibre ( hay, sugar beet pulp, chopped hay , with good hay as the first choice)".

What is really interesting to me is the opposite side of the coin, grains.  Sarah Ralston of Rutgers University implicated high blood glucose (sugar) levels in feed to incidence of Osteocondrosis  Dissecans OCD, in foals in 1995.  Following on from this Kentucky Equine Research (KER)  compiled a chart of  Equine Glycemic Response to some common horse feeds,  which is interesting:

Whole Oats 100
Sugar Beet (hydrated) 72.2
SB rinsed 34.1
Dry SB w molasses 94.8
Corn 104
Sweet Feed  (grain) 107
Alfalfa 52
Sweet Feed (grain) with oil 52
Timothy Hay 32

The current advise following their study into young stock nutrition and its relationship to OCD is essentially  feed feeds that have a low glycaemic index to weanlings and yearlings I.e. forages, or feeds based on forages and minimise grain. If you feel you must feed grain then add oil to the feed as KER have found that this has the effect of  lowering the response to the sugar in the feed (as above).  Keep young horses lean on the body score and make sure minerals are in good balanced supply.  Consider forage balancers and forage as an alternative to mixes, pellets or grain in lactating mares and their foals.

I have certainly had a lot of success using this formula.


----------



## volatis (7 December 2007)

pocomoto, I too have been wondering where the science comes from re the myth of feeding beet. Been trying to find out on a different forum and no one has given me any evidence yet and reading your reply I shall continue to feed beet to my weanlings as part of their diet


----------



## pocomoto (8 December 2007)

Me too I think its quite a valuable feedstuff as it has a good water content and is a hundgut feed, I use it a lot with balancers to avoide too much grain in the diet and have not had any digestive nor development problems to date.  I am sure that if there had been any specific problems it would be plastered on every notice board.  

Don't know about you but mine usually start eating mums droppings at about 2 mts when they start to seriously graze, I leave the poo picking a bit at this point, so their hindgut digestive system must be well developed at this point anayway.  Put this one down to Rural myth until some science turns up!!  Mind you statistics can make anything look bad for you one week and good the next!!!!! 

Though the feeding oil to reduce sugar uptake was really interesting and could be very useful in laminitics to combat fresh grass?    Also that research project at KER turned up that mineral inbalance was not as important as glycemic response in the instance of OCD in young TB's, so you do more damage overfeeding grain than getting the mineral balance wrong, food for thought!


----------



## oln (14 December 2007)

is feeding baileys stud balancer ,hay ,grass and what oil would you use a good choice for weaned foals


----------



## Maesfen (21 November 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
pocomoto, I too have been wondering where the science comes from re the myth of feeding beet. Been trying to find out on a different forum and no one has given me any evidence yet and reading your reply I shall continue to feed beet to my weanlings as part of their diet 

[/ QUOTE ]


Apart from growing up in the 50's, I was lucky enough to work later under some very good stud grooms and each one would never feed sugar beet to mares with unweaned foals or to foals under seven months old and they had obviously been trained by earlier very good horsemasters so it is something that I have never fed and I give everyone the same warning as I had from them!
Also, in Ann Leighton-Hardman's book "Young Horse Management" which was first published in '76, so long before un mollassed SB became available, she says -

    "Digestion of fibre is not fully effective until the foal reaches 6 to 7 months of age.  The foal's ability to digest hay gradually improves over this 7-month period.  Therefore, hay used for foals must be of the highest quality, with plenty of leaf and not stalky.  The ability to digest sucrose also develops over the same period.  At birth it is considered to be 30% efficient, at 4 months 40% efficient and 100% efficient by 7 months of age.  Young foals should therefore not receive foods such as mollassed sugar beet which contains sucrose."

So old wife's tale or not it was nice to find my old schooling backed up by someone so well known in the breeding world too! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





AS I said before, she wrote that long before un molassed SB became available so perhaps as long as you make sure to use the unsweetened stuff it won't be such a problem now.  Needless to say, old lessons go deep and I still won't use it but then I still prefer the old type SB and so do my horses!


----------



## Gingernags (21 November 2008)

I'm about to do a different feed post anyway but wanted to add to this.

I used to work on a stud farm, and got most of my knowledge from there but they neve mentioned not using sugar beet.  I know I'm not a prolific breeder, but all I've ever done is fed the foals the same as their dams from when they start showing an interest.  So when they come in for winter  and I start soaking sugar beet - which was beginning of November, the foals have always had a small amount.  Initially when they get their own buckets its just damped with a little water.

Now with Ivy and now Finn, I use unmollassed speedibeet as all our horses are good do-ers so we never get the full fat version!

But bearing in mind what MFH has said, I've compromised.  I soak sugar beet for Asti, Finn gets a little bit of the water (I make sugar beet up like soup!!!) so he's getting used to it slowly and he's 5 months old now.  He literally gets maybe half a cup full and he's seemed fine on it.  So I'm guessing this should be OK?


----------



## S_N (21 November 2008)

I've just started introducing Matilda to Un-molassed SB - she's now 7 months old!


----------



## Maesfen (21 November 2008)

In reply to this -

     "But bearing in mind what MFH has said, I've compromised. I soak sugar beet for Asti, Finn gets a little bit of the water (I make sugar beet up like soup!!!) so he's getting used to it slowly and he's 5 months old now. He literally gets maybe half a cup full and he's seemed fine on it. So I'm guessing this should be OK? "

I can't see that that will be a problem at all because it's the unsweetened version you're using.  As I said before, my old stud grooms go back to the year dot and things have changed an awful lot since then, especially feedwise although the final efficiency of the gut to digest fibre still stands of course.

The only doubts I have about feeding even unsweetened SB, if they can be called doubts (looking at the bigger picture now, not just your Finn) is that years ago, when horses were fed simply and by people who were brought up with horses, to work with horses be they draught or pleasure horses; it was second nature to them,  that they seemed to be much sounder and hardier then, when they had to work for their living, than perhaps the modern horse is today.  There must have been substance to the 'no SB' rule for some reason that someone like A L-H adhered to it too, let alone publishing the fact.  
How many times are there posts that a young horse has got something wrong with its joints.   Whether that is down to breeding, using weaker stock, nurturing, feeding or working them so differently and so young, on possibly soft surfaces all the time which would have been unheard of then, is a mystery but it does bear thinking about I think as the big picture, not just one thing alone.  The old boys seemed to have got things right with their very basic feeds and standards they had much better than seems to happen these days when we have so many different feeds and many untrained people not knowing what they're doing, it's mind boggling and so many people are in a rush to get their youngsters out and competing that they could be compounding the issues.

Sorry, that last bit should have been in a new post I think, rambling on there - as you, sorry, I do!


----------



## Gingernags (21 November 2008)

I think its just me thinking this, but I'm convinced, and happy with it, that Finny is growing just like Asti did.  I'm probably following the same routine, slightly different feeds but trying to keep it simple, and as much turn out as I can though bringing in in really bad weather and trying to keep rugging to a minimum - so only really wet or REALLY cold!

Asti as she grew never did a really leggy phase, she grew out at the same time as up and always looked like a proper little chunky pony rather than a leggy baby.  Everthing seemed to grow slowly but steadily and equally.

So when I think that she's (keeping everything crossed) never had leg and lameness issues or joint problems - I'm glad he's growing the same way.

And I'll stick to the same methods of work, light but regular walking in hand whilst young, longreining and the odd large circle on the lunge at 2 (but mainly the walking and long reining) backed at 3, turned away at 3 and a half, into work at 4 and no jumping til 5.

Tried and tested!  Though depending on how he matures, I'll be flexible!

I'm very tempted to try to go back to straights and good old feeding methods but when he's older.  I know a lot of work goes into these new feeds but for me anyway, I think horses were healthier when feeding was more straight forward back then... or I guess maybe we know more and notice more?

Probably a good debate!


----------



## Maesfen (21 November 2008)

That's interesting about her and his growth rates, it's how we'd like all stock to be, steady and regular instead of in spurts so that sounds like you're getting it right don't you think?. (and who's to say what's right or wrong, they can only be guidelines to be adapted to your own purpose and needs, surely)
I've had some that have gone through the ugliest gangliest stages but still get there in the end, others have sailed through always looking in proportion, complete ponies right from the start (Freddy, the eldest - by one day! - of the foster boys is one of them.  ATM you'd swear he was something like a Section C until you see the length of his cannon bones and then scratch your head!  The other one has been up and down but always chunky while Kitty is very chunky but quite small, atm, very bum high, a real power pack; they're all so different!  Joey didn't seem to go through any stages but grow, which he's still doing but still very much in proportion.  Already he is starting to fill his frame better now he's almost four and he has great timber which should stand him in good stead for what David wants to do with him.  Next door have a Mill Law 4 year old which has been chasing BYEH qualifiers all summer with someone and he is now off work with a leg!  Not a good start to the knocks of an eventing career you'd think but they have pushed him pretty hard this year by all accounts so not surprising IMV.  He's so promising, why on earth didn't they wait?  I moan a bit about David doing what he's done already with Joey but it has been a very slow process with lots of mini breaks in between so not hard work as such and he knows he has my wrath to deal with if anything happens because he's pushed too hard, LOL!

Interesting you say about going back to straights; I've almost gone back already!  The foals only get Suregrow each feed but the others do have a bit of economy mix (because OH feeds them all in the morning and asking him to mix feeds would be a nightmare, he'd really get the huff, so eco' mix in the am!) but in the evening they get some more eco mix (less than a full scoop all in) , rolled oats, SB and a small amount of chaff; I'm also starting to feed linseed lozenges (just need to find the right amounts they should have eventually) and a measure of Brewers Yeast; that's it!  Very simple!  They all looked very well on it last year so I'll keep at it I think.  At the beginning of Christmas, I'll introduce SB to the children with some chaff and Suregrow which I might try to phase out for Yearling Cubes in the spring.  Like all things, you have to play it by ear and what suits one might not suit another so it's a lot easier keeping them on the same stuff if you can - and cheaper too!


----------



## Gingernags (21 November 2008)

Finn is a wierdo.  I already posted about weaning the little sod off bran - he just wouldn't eat!  Then he chucked a huff over the Winergy!  I'm just using the Winergy as a chaff for him, and the suregrow.  If I try to change he gets too stroppy and steals his mothers, which I don't like as she's got the alfa a!  She's an equine bin though, will eat ANYTHING unless its supplements - she can be funny with those.

The one thing on Finn that sticks out though - is that backside.  Its so round and big.  he has DEFINATELY got a QH bum.  Asti is a proper old fashioned pony (15hh is a pony to me!) as she has the face of the lady, the ass of the cook - isn't that the saying?  But his backside is better again.

He already uses it to shove his mother about - lowers his head, and reverses with power!!!

He's still incredibly naughty - tried to catch him last night but he wanted to eat the headcollar not wear it.  I won that one so as we were walking past the pony stables - he just calmly grabbed Brandy's headcollar and threw it about!!!  He must have more of a liking for pink than we thought!!  

I'm desperate to clip him you know.  I know I can't, it is insane to clip a 5 month old and don't worry, I won't do it I just want to! But I want to see that bum and spotty pattern under his woolly mammoth coat.  I'm terrible!!!

Whoops, not that this relates to sugar beet though!!!

If I go back to straights, I think I'd have Asti on oats, chaff and SB when ridden in winter, and just coarse mix in summer.  So maybe chaff, SB and nuts for Finny - either a blalncer kind or stick with the Suregrow.  He's doing well on it.


----------

