# Best way to cover a mare



## crazyhorsegirl (1 August 2007)

ny maiden mare is currently at stud as we speak. She is being covered this week with a young stallion (in his first season)
When i originally spoke to the stud they suggested running my mare with the stallion as oppose to in hand covering. 

Do people have a preferece? Apparently they are getting on well in the field but i cant help but think that it is harder to check that the deed is being done properly, especially with an inexperienced mare and stallion! 

Does anyone have any views on this?


----------



## AndyPandy (1 August 2007)

If the stallion is in his first season and is inexperienced, then unless you use AI, you have NO idea whether or not the stallion has decent semen quality. You also don't know how he will behave when covering; he might do a lot of damage to the mare.

Plus with a maiden mare, you have no idea how receptive she will be, if at all. She might not be up for being covered (some mares just don't like it), and could kick the stallion - which could lead to all sorts of nasty injuries. She may also be prone to infections, or have other fertility-related problems which you just won't find out about this way.

This method is asking for trouble.


----------



## Tia (1 August 2007)

My preference is to run mares with stallions and pasture breed.  My young stallion ran with 3 of my mares last year, bred them all first time around without any issues at all.  2 lovely healthy foals down and 1 due in a couple of weeks time.

I am not a fan of in-hand breeding though.

Best of luck.


----------



## crazyhorsegirl (1 August 2007)

Well when i dropped her off she was put next to another stallion in the yard and she was VERY receptive to him! I have spoken to the stud and they are getting on famously apparently!
The stallion is 3yrs old and has covered one mare before mine. I think in the same method and she is scanned in foal now. He also got injured about a year ago in some wire fencing so they are not worried about him getting kicked etc

I agree that i wont know if the mare is prone to infections etc. 

My vet recommended going for a natural covering (be it in hand or running together) as one of her ovaries had closed down for this year and he felt she was not a candidate for AI at any time. 

I am going to pick my mare up this weekend as she is coming out of season now. 

Is it unlikely she will get in foal first time?


----------



## Michelle73 (1 August 2007)

When my stallion was young we used to cover in hand and his manners were appauling so we threw him out in the field with an old mare - he was 14.1hh Welsh D and she was 15.3hh TB we didn't think he'd be able to reach and we thought she'd be so grumpy she'd teach him some manners.  Well he taught us everything.  As my mother tells the story, there were squeals of delight from behind the blackberry bushes as he did the deed and the following year we had a beautiful filly foal.  She was named Magic as we'd been told the TB mare would never conceive ever again!!!  They had another baby two years later.  Visting mares were always covered in hand unless they asked to run with the herd.  Our own mares would run with the stallion unless we had an important show coming up.  In fact we had two Welsh C mares Faz and Fly who were running with him, he was so henpecked that we got to the top yard one day and he'd jumped out of the field and was begging to be put in a stable away from the nagging women!!!!  Ah the good old days back when I was still at school and could day dream and play horses all day long!!


----------



## AndyPandy (1 August 2007)

Being receptive when next to eachother is one thing. Being mounted by a novice stallion is another. One mare in foal is good, but is not statistically significant.

Your vet's recommendation BAFFLES me. What on Earth is he on about - NOT a candidate for AI at any time!? What a ridiculous statement.

Good luck, but it wouldn't surprise me if she doesn't take. My advice would be to change your vet.


----------



## Michelle73 (1 August 2007)

She could very well catch first time.  The earliest foal we ever had was born on 25th Feb and we weren't expecting her to foal until May as she'd been having rudeties all spring!!!!!   
	
	
		
		
	


	








  The wonderful world of breeding!!!!  (Wasn't worth paying out for scanning or internal on this occasion as it didn't matter whether or not she was in foal - actually it was the same TB mare as discussed earlier - this was her 2nd foal with the same stallion!)


----------



## crazyhorsegirl (1 August 2007)

I understand that but the stud have assured me they have done fine with each other!  So guess will just have to wait and see! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Yes not sure what he was meaning by this but he said not all mares are right for AI as they have to be very correct in their cycles. He is a very well respected vet and mainly does breeding so i would trust his judgement. 

I guess that is the risk of going to a younger, less established stallion. I am not getting my hopes up but can but try. 

Are you more in favour of AI then?

I dont know enough to comment either way really


----------



## AndyPandy (1 August 2007)

Most people on here will know that I am 100% pro AI, for professional breeding. It gives you the most control.

The view that "some mares will only take when being covered naturally" is very outdated, and not true. What he really means is that some mares cycles are more difficult to follow than others and require a little more management, which he doesn't want to do.

In my opinion, the only reason you should ever use natural covering is if the stallion is not available for AI (for breed registration requirements) or if you want lower conception rates.


----------



## Fahrenheit (1 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Wasn't worth paying out for scanning or internal on this occasion as it didn't matter whether or not she was in foal

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is a very stupid think to say, all mares should be scanned for pregnancy WHATEVER method they have been or not been covered by. You are putting a mare at risk by not having a pregancy scan done, what if she was carrying twins, risk her life and the foals.... I just don't understand people with such a don't care either way attitude to breeding...


----------



## Fahrenheit (1 August 2007)

I totally agree with AP. I think in this day and age if people are letting their stallions run with mares they can't be a very reputable stud IMO, I wouldn't dream of letting any of my stallions (or young colts) run with mares, they are worth far too much, not just monetary wise but worth too much to me, to let some mare kick them... It can happen in hand but its about reducing the risks and the risks to mare and stallion are even further reduced with the use of AI.


----------



## Michelle73 (1 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wasn't worth paying out for scanning or internal on this occasion as it didn't matter whether or not she was in foal

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is a very stupid think to say, all mares should be scanned for pregnancy WHATEVER method they have been or not been covered by. You are putting a mare at risk by not having a pregancy scan done, what if she was carrying twins, risk her life and the foals.... I just don't understand people with such a don't care either way attitude to breeding...  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

As it was 20 plus years ago now (making me around 13yrs old at the time) and my mother was in charge of the stud,  I followed what she told me to do.   I think you will also agree that times have changed somewhat in those 20 years.   My view of breeding is completely different these days.  I fully understand your comments and take them onboard.  We haven't bred horses I'm sure you'll be pleased to hear since 1991.  However, your strong views are noted.  But as I have had to learn, not everyone does things the way that you do or  the way that you want them to.   I now feel each to their own.   I have fond memories and knowing what I know now, we were very lucky to have achieved what we achieved without any problems.  I probably would not undertake breeding these days simply due to the risks involved and the stress I feel it would cause me.   
	
	
		
		
	


	





I wonder how you feel about the fields full of coloured cobs who's mares are left to foal out in the fields just as natural herds of horses do.  Whilst walking the dog, I've come across some shocking sights of dead foals, foals hanging dead half way out of their mother and afterbirth left hanging from a mare without any treatment which she was stepping on.  Just one more of the many reasons why I would not choose to breed now.   
	
	
		
		
	


	





As for your comments about don't care either way attitude I'm not going to go into other reasons for the way things happened the way that it did because it is none of your business and a long time ago.  But this mare was my mother's pride and joy.  I can assure you the vet was never very far away.  

I trust I won't get verbal beating about this as I have done on previous threads about other subjects.  I'm always very interested in other peoples views and opinions and always take on board what anyone has to say.   Changing the way that I do things accordingly if I deem it necessary.    
	
	
		
		
	


	





Now that I am no longer breeding and have no intentions to breed unless I become increadibly rich!  I hope that other people reading this thread will take your comments on board and learn from my  inappropriate behaviour bashing.


----------



## juliehannah58 (1 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 I think in this day and age if people are letting their stallions run with mares they can't be a very reputable stud IMO, 

[/ QUOTE ] 

I think that slating any stud who runs mares out with stallions is ridiculous personally. I have just had my mare successfully covered and conceived first time by having her run out with a stallion at a VERY well respected stud, in fact in 2005 they were ranked 13 best showjumping breeders in the world  hardly unrespectable in my eyes. 

The reason being that she is a very nervous horse to cover, this was her third time at stud and hopefully her third foal but if anything she was getting more and more distressed each time. On the studs advice we used a stallion who is getting on in years and very kind and experienced and I was told that often when turned out together the nervous mares relax and have a much nicer experience. True to form after 2 days in together she was the one chasing him around and was besotted, and took first time, at 16 yrs old. 

Im not saying AI isnt fantastic and the way to go, but that it simply ISNT right for every owner or every mare, in my case I wanted my mare to learn to relax in the presence of stallions (whether that be just resident at a stud for AI or for covering) which it achieved and she had a much more pleasant experience because of it. 

It is wrong to tar all studs with the same brush just because they practise different techniques and are open minded as to what works and what doesnt. 

BTW the stud I used also has an AI centre, so they werent bias in any way.


----------



## Anastasia (1 August 2007)

NO NO.......dont ask AndyPandy if he is more in favour of AI..................... 
	
	
		
		
	


	









 [ QUOTE ]
 He also got injured about a year ago in some wire fencing so they are not worried about him getting kicked etc


[/ QUOTE ]   MMMMMMm..............................not sure what I make of this comment, they obviously dont think much of their stallion!!

We cover "in-hand" where it is controlled.  My lad is far too valuable to have injured for ANY mare!!

As AndyPandy says....just because she is interested does not mean she will stand.  We had a mare in this year who on looking at the stallion stopped and squirted all over the place..................she was like the Niagra Falls!!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	









HOWEVER......................when we took our lad up to her that was a different, yes she was squirting but given half the chance she would have kicked him to buggery.  So that rule does not always work.


----------



## Gingernags (1 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I totally agree with AP. I think in this day and age if people are letting their stallions run with mares they can't be a very reputable stud IMO 

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell, how far are you going to extend this one then?  Maybe all humans should abstain from sex and only ever have IVF to have babies, just in case some woman hurts the fella's wedding tackle with her nails or something!

Our TB ran with a fully registered Welsh sec D a couple of years ago - he is an ex National Carriage Driving trial competition horse, and is now 27, lives out full time with a band of mares and has a fabulous life and breeds entirely as nature intended with his mares.

I'd send any of my mares to do that if I wanted to use a Welshy stallion.

Just because you don't do it doesn't mean those who do are automatically bad!

I'd rather a mare be covered naturally every time instead of AI.  Far too much interference and playing god for me.  Mine is being covered in hand as the stallion is actively competing at the moment and they don't do AI and I'm totally happy with that.  It doesn't make either the stallion owner or me disreputable!

D'you know, in a lot of ways I'd rather go back 20 years to when I got my first horse - virtually no laminitis, saddles were easy to fit, never needed back men and things were so much less fussy!


----------



## Fahrenheit (1 August 2007)

You don't explain that in you post, that it was 20 years ago, you just state that it wasn't worth getting her scanned as it didn't matter if the mare was in foal or not, which gives people who have no idea about breeding the impression that it is alright not to get a mare scanned for pregnancy when for the sake of £30 it is well worth getting your mare scanned to see if she is infoal or not and whether she is carrying twins. If your breeding perpective has changed since then why give out the impression that it doesn't matter about getting mares scanned for pregnancy because anyone reading it will think its an update view of yours unless you say otherwise.
I am fully aware of the state people just leave their horses to breed in and have seen just as many horrific sights has you, I think it is awful the way some of these 'domesticated' herds are left and managed and I do my bit by supporting charities such as the ILPH. When you are talking about wild herds, then it should be left to nature but if you own a horse you take on the responsibility for caring for that horse and doing everything possible to care for that horse. 
I have never spoken to you before, as far as I am aware, and have no idea what has gone on in your previous threads and don't see what that has to do with me and what I have said to you in direct reply to your comments, I would hardly call my reply to you a bashing, it was putting across a very important point, in a short to the point manner, that mares should always be scanned even if it doesn't matter to you if they are in foal or not, if someone has taken the responsibility to put the mare in with a stallion then they should be willing to pay for the mare to be scanned imo.


----------



## Fahrenheit (1 August 2007)

You have kindly missed out my reasons for my opinion, and I did put that it was IMO (in my opinion), that it is because my stallions are worth to much to me to let them run out with mares. My opinion wasn't suppose to tar all studs with the same brush but that IMO if a stallion or colt is worth anything in the competition world, why risk it running out with mares, it was in reply to a thread about a 3yo inexperienced stallion running out with an inexperienced mare. It my opinion that people are mad to let young potential top competition horse stallions run out with mares but it is a personal opinion. I never meant to imply no stallion should run out with mares at all ever, although I am pro AI  
	
	
		
		
	


	




. In the example of a retired stallion or a stallion with permanent injury then I am usually laid back and open minded enough to let it wash over me and let it pass but I was thinking when I was writing that I would have to be a member of the raving lunatic party to let my 4yo stallion who is showing alot of promise for Dressage to run out with mares, I wouldn't want him kicked and out of action! My train of thought was solely imagining young stallions (that could be the next Arko or Pro Set) running round with mares getting kicked and being out of action  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 something that didn't quite come across in my writing in the same way as I was thinking it.


----------



## crazyhorsegirl (1 August 2007)

Regarding the comment made about the stud being irresponsible for letting their stallion run with my mare. The stallion, due to his injury, is completely unrideable and always will be. It was me that said that was why they were happy to let the colt run with my mare, not the stud, i was assuming that as all the other stallions are covered in hand. I certainly didnt see this as being careless towards their stallion but realistic that he was never going to be able to be ridden.

I dont see a problem with letting them run with the stallion unless it is particularly agressive and would harrass the mare constantly. As i said, i have spoken to the stud and my mare has taken to the whole experience very well and seems to be having a great time! 
To quote the stud "Its like they have always been together"

I dont have an issue with this method and respected my vets opinion in this instance that AI was not the right route for my mare, others may be different. 

Im sorry if i sounded silly asking AP if he preferred AI i wasn't aware that he knew asa much on the subject as he clearly does. 

I will have to wait to see what the outcome is on whether my mare is in foal or not, fingers crossed.


----------



## Fahrenheit (1 August 2007)

There is always someone who has to try and turn peoples differing opinions on equine breeding to apply to humans.... I am not going to say anymore it is just ridiculous IMO to compare the two....

I have not said I am against covering mares in hand, I would be a hyrocrite if I did as one of my stallions is available by in hand covering but only until he is trained to the dummy this winter and then he will most likely be AI all the way like the rest of my boys! I prefer AI has I like to keep the risks to the mare and stallion as minimal as possible but I have nothing against covering in hand, although I prefer not to, where possible.

Just to clarify it is my opinion that if a stallion is decent enough to be bred from then its decent enough not to risked running out with mares... All my views are always my own personal views, based on breeding Sport Horses, with the importance of Performance, Conformation, Soundness etc being paramount.


----------



## htobago (1 August 2007)

In a way, I suppose my romantic ideal would be to have my stallion running out with his own little herd...

...but in reality he is way too valuable (not just financially) to risk being kicked and injured. The stud where he lives won't even turn him out in the paddocks when it's wet or slippery, as he hoons around at warp speed and could hurt himself - so he goes out in the outdoor manege instead. And even when it's dry he is only allowed in the smallest stallion-paddock, so he can't get up quite so much speed and risk injury. And he always goes in the manege to let off steam on a safe surface first...

It would be crazy to take all these precautions and then turn him out to get kicked by a mare. Tullis at Twemlows told me I should never even let him cover in hand, as he's far too valuable to risk being kicked.


----------



## Navalgem (1 August 2007)

IMHO I think as nature intended is a nice idea, but you have much less control and greater risk of injury and infection and the expected arrival date may be way out.  I personally wouldn't risk my colt, even if he had been injured and was unrideable.

Then there's covering 'in hand', more control and more semen in mare but as AP says you have no-idea of the quality of semen, and still risk injury and infection to possibly both mare and stallion.

I think AI with fresh is best, followed by chilled and frozen.  Much greater control and so much less risky for both parties.


----------



## luckilotti (1 August 2007)

for one of my mares - i had the chance to have her running with a young stallion, which i considered - until i actually saw him in the field - he was playing as a youngster should - i very much doubt that he would have known what to do - plus the stud hadnt even tried him with any of their mares - hence my mare would have been the guine-pig - ooops sorry - 1st and i was paying for that! 
my vet also suggested a natural covering rather than AI as its her 1st foal. 
as for one of my other mares - she is currently running with a welshi! he is up at my yard with her and i am overseeing things - as my OH said - they are getting on so well - like brother and sister!!!! if she doesnt take, she doesnt, its not the end of the world. it's a friends stallion so my cost so far with her have been minimal (just swabs). at the end of the day - they both seen content together although she did kick him a few times the 1st few days! they now are inseperable - but havent done the deed yet!
i'm just happy to have the stallion back up at mine - he was turned out with me as a yearling and i always had a soft spot for him! with his owner - he doesnt really get any turnout, at all - non of her stallions do so the turnout/grass is doing him the world of good as a horse.


----------



## mat (1 August 2007)

I agree that it is absolutely ridiculous to compare horse breeding to humans... We are generally much less dangerous!

I also agree that if an animal is good enough to breed from, then there is no point in risking its safety by letting them run together.

And not having scans!! WTF!!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I dont like the fact that people go on about how natural it is etc however romantic that may be.. the thing people forget is that in the wild the herd would be just that, a herd!.. not just a group of horses that are put in a field together for a few weeks to mate. The horses are unfamiliar with each other, therefore their behavior can be agressive. 

Its nice to hear people say that they dont think their mare would hurt the stallion as she's really up for it etc.. but what if the stallion hurts her! Some can be pretty agressive when mating. 

Would you rather that your mare is AI'd safely,  or that she runs with a stallion and returns with bite marks all over her and scraped sides from the stallions hooves, or even a tear! Ouch!

I just cant understand why anyone would even take the chance of covering in this way...

I would also argue that if you are not in a position where you can pay for the AI and scans etc, then you should not even be considering breeding a foal. Anything can  happen and there can be hidden costs if something doesn't go as planned..


----------



## Fahrenheit (2 August 2007)

Well put bbmat, my thoughts exactly (just much better put).


----------



## mat (2 August 2007)




----------



## magic104 (2 August 2007)

My mare was a maiden when she went off to stud last year.  I have already posted about the fact that the stallion unbeknown to me had never covered before.  Despite my mare being in season &amp; ready because he was over enthusiastic he frightened her so she would not stand for him.  In fact she was kicking out at him &amp; totally panicked by his behaviour.  The issue I had was they would not admit that the problem was with him, otherwise I could have saved myself a lot of money &amp; had her AI'd in the first instance.  We have an ID stallion who runs with his mares, but this does not stop them being monitored/scanned.  

I am surprised though that a maiden mare has been taken to a 3yr old colt, I would have thought that is a huge gamble, for various reasons.  I dont mean to throw stones in the green house, but I did a lot of research into my choice of stallion &amp; his  breeding, especially his dams line.  This was because he had no stock to judge, &amp; neither did my mare.  Under normal circumstances I would not have bred from her as I think breeding is a big enough lottery without using mares of unknown breeding.  As I have said before if I breed again for many reasons I will use AI.

Good luck &amp; hopefully you will get a nice healthy foal next year.


----------



## AndyPandy (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
my vet also suggested a natural covering rather than AI as its her 1st foal...

[/ QUOTE ]

WHY!? What planet are these vets on? What benefit could natural covering possibly have for a maiden mare!? It's like they've got some book about breeding written in the 19th century and are quoting bits out of it.


----------



## crazyhorsegirl (2 August 2007)

The reason a miden mare and three year old colt are together is that the colt is the stallion of my choice, the fact he has not had much experience is neither here nor there, he is the one i wanted for my mare. 
I also have followed the stud and my vets advice, i am new to breeding and this is definitely not the cheaper option in my opinion! 
I can only follow advice from more knowledgable people. The stud has a very good reputation as does my vet. I can only follow their advice. 
If this is not the right thing to do then i will learn from it and reasses  my opinion for the future. Cant do more than that.


----------



## juliehannah58 (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 I just cant understand why anyone would even take the chance of covering in this way... 

[/ QUOTE ] 
Sorry but again, I feel this is a very naive statement. Every persons situation is different, how can you make such a sweeping statement?

I had reasons for letting my mare run out with her stallion, he was very experienced and kind and even had a wife who even shared a stable with him. I wanted to calm my mare down whilst at stud and in the presence of stallions (Im sure you will agree a nervous mare is not ideal when trying to conceive) and being allowed to go out with the stallion and relax in his company worked. She came back with not a mark on her, not a single mark. 

She has been retired to stud due to an injury, but previously is a proven and successful jumper over 1.30m level. The way I saw it was that breeding is her new career (she had two previously in-between competing) so it is in everyones best interests (and hers) to try and get her to accept being covered and calm down in stallions company. 

All I can really say is IT WORKED, this wasnt for lack of budget or care, it was an informed decision made between myself, a stud vet and a VERY experienced stud owner. I have ended up with a very happy pregnant mare and hopefully less hassle for future breeding. 

Running mare's and stallions out together doesn't = person trying to do things on the cheap, not in all cases anyway. My mare has had vet assistance the whole time and she will continue to throughout her pregnancy.

In future I WILL use AI, but I just want to point out that it isnt suitable for everyone and people DO have their reasons for choosing to run mares and stallions together. 

*gets of soapbox* phew!


----------



## crazyhorsegirl (2 August 2007)

I agree with you JH58 for some circumstances it is the right thing to do. 

I did consider all the options very carefully, including bloodlines  and conformation to improve my mare with the aid of a stallion. 
I was very concerned that the stallion would harrass my mare although was reassured many times by the stud that they would keep a close eye on them and they seem to be getting on very well! She has been fine to cover and not a nervous type, i think she has actually really enjoyed her new career!  
	
	
		
		
	


	









Only time will tell if she is actually pregnant now though!


----------



## Fahrenheit (2 August 2007)

I don't think bbmats statement is nieve at all, when put into the context of what he has written he has explained very well why he feels the way he does and he (personally) doesn't understand why someone would take this option. You are lucky that things turned out very well for you and your mare is happy and everything went hunky dory, that makes me very happy that you are happy with how things went BUT it could have quite easily not have! The whole point people have been trying to make is that the risks of injury  are greatly reduced to mare and stallion, with covering inhand and even more greatly reduced for AI. Yes things can still go wrong, but with the mare turned out with the stallion the risks to both are alot higher and that can not be disputed at all, and if the mare and stallion suddenly fell out, lets face it horses do, even with the best of care and monitoring I doubt anyone could intervene quick enough, before an injury happened!  My opinion is why risk it in the first place yours is different, but that by no means, means that someone is nieve, having seen bbmats and AndyPandys set up, neither could be called anything less than VERY EXPERIENCED! Its all very well taking one line of what someone has said and responding to it out of context but bbmats post clearly states the reasons why he feels that way and none of the opinions he has put are nieve, they are based on his experience and personal opinion.


----------



## Bounty (2 August 2007)

AndyPandy - my vet was adamant that AI was the way to go with my 18yo maiden mare... in my case it was the stud that wanted to go natural  
	
	
		
		
	


	




In the end because of her long term casslicks they AI'd her with fresh, but I was well versed from them about how success rates weren't as high  
	
	
		
		
	


	












She took first time


----------



## htobago (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]

I dont like the fact that people go on about how natural it is etc however romantic that may be.. the thing people forget is that in the wild the herd would be just that, a herd!.. not just a group of horses that are put in a field together for a few weeks to mate. The horses are unfamiliar with each other, therefore their behavior can be agressive. 

quote]

Well said bbmat - I think this is the crucial point that people miss - and precisely why I referred to my wish for my stallion to run with his own little herd as a 'romantic' fantasy, as opposed to a realistic option!

Of course it's a lovely idea, and certainly can work for some people. I have friends who have their stallion running out with one or two of their own mares, who the stallion has known for a long time, and this seems to work fine, being fairly close to the natural 'herd' situation in which the horses would be familiar to each other.

But I would not risk turning a valuable stallion out with mares who are complete strangers to him - there is nothing 'natural' about that!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





And anyway - 'natural' does not necessarily equal 'good'! It is not 'natural' for horses to get veterinary attention when they are ill! It is not 'natural' for horses to be fed hay when there is no grass! 'Nature' would let them starve and die in pain. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Of all the unnatural things we do to horses (including riding them, for heaven's sake!) it seems to me that AI is one of the least harmful and most beneficial!


----------



## AndyPandy (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
AndyPandy - my vet was adamant that AI was the way to go with my 18yo maiden mare... in my case it was the stud that wanted to go natural  
	
	
		
		
	


	




In the end because of her long term casslicks they AI'd her with fresh, but I was well versed from them about how success rates weren't as high  
	
	
		
		
	


	












She took first time  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]






 Excellent


----------



## Gingernags (2 August 2007)

Its not always the money thing though.  Where I am there are no specialist AI vets - looking at the minefield that AP has shown about "approved" this and that means b*gger all - how on earth can you decide if your local vet can actually do much AI wise?

In my case - and yes thats only my case but I suspect I'm one of many - I am a one horse owner, I have chosen the stallion I want for my mare, he doesn't do AI, our vets in the area aren't specialists - so I am happy with an in hand covering with the stallion I chose.  With my sisters - the stallion she wanted ran happily with his mares and she was happy to let hers run with him.  We did the research and thinking before we arranged anything!

BUT I am fed up of being sneered at for my choice because AI is so fantastic, and because if we don't use AI but in hand covering or running with a stallion its irresponsible and unprofessional etc etc etc...  Fine, pop along to the national stud and tell them that about all their top TB breeding eh?

Honestly, I *did* enjoy this breeding section, but some people are starting to come across like the Parelli brigade - its your way or you are cruel and bad horse owners and you're not invited to partake.

Its entirely too bl**dy patronising for words!

There is nothing wrong with in hand covering and stallions running with mares if that is the way the owners want it and have assessed the situation.

Please get down off your high dummy mares and quit putting us down!


----------



## Enfys (2 August 2007)

Very interesting thread, says she looking out of the window at her stallion, mare, foal band happily sharing a round bale in the field, as they will whilst I continue to own them. 

Feel very bad, inadequate and not fit to actually own horses reading all this. Thankyou.


----------



## crazyhorsegirl (2 August 2007)

Is your mare in foal now Gingermare?

Im glad i am not the only one that noticed the AI clan!


----------



## AndyPandy (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
BUT I am fed up of being sneered at for my choice because AI is so fantastic, and because if we don't use AI but in hand covering or running with a stallion its irresponsible and unprofessional etc etc etc...  *Fine, pop along to the national stud and tell them that about all their top TB breeding eh?*

[/ QUOTE ]

This is only because of the rules about AI. There are plenty of owners and breeders within the TB industry who would prefer that AI was allowed, and that AI-produced foals could be registered.

If you cannot use AI then that's fine and it's your choice anyway, but where one has the choice, it does make far more sense to use AI.


----------



## magic104 (2 August 2007)

No need to get melodramatic, these are people's views, no one is having a personal dig!  This is why some of these debates get heated because people keep taking it personal.  I have gone against the grain by breeding from a mare with no history, do I care, no.  There are always more then one way to skin a cat where horses are concerned &amp; while one method works for one it wont work for another.  I will stick with AI not because of dont believe in the other methods, (which in the past I have used without issue).  I will stick with AI because I have more control as my mare wont have to leave home for more the a few days whilst she visits the vets up the road.  I am lucky I do have vets how can AI &amp; have had a very good sucess rate as do a lot of studs.  I know of as many mares not got in-foal with natural as those failed by AI.  My comments are not meant to offend anyone, but if they do then I apologise, but as stated earlier it helps to grow a thicker skin!


----------



## Bounty (2 August 2007)

But Enfys... you are referring to your own, settled little herd. The main debate about running mares with stallions that is going on here is centering around stallions at stud, where horses that are completely unknown to each other are chucked out in a field and expected to bond instantly. 

I never chuck strange horses out together straight away, and I'm talking about mares and geldings. Personally I think that a hormonal mare in strange surroundings being put in with a highly sexual stallion on his own ground is asking for trouble, though I'll admit that stallions used to running this way are probably less frustrated/sex driven than most.

There is a stallion locally who  _only_  covers by running with his ladies - to my mind that suggests there are handling issues which mean that in hand covering/AI isn't an option


----------



## Fahrenheit (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
BUT I am fed up of being sneered at for my choice

[/ QUOTE ]

DON'T you think I am fed up of being SNEERED at because I am pro AI.

FFS (and I think that is the first time I have sworn on hho!) can't nobody express an opinion backed up by facts! Its not sneering when you express an opinion backed up by facts and risk accessment to the horse! 

I think you are the one that needs to get down off of your high almighty know it all narrow minded perch and take that giant plank of wood off of your shoulder!

JEEZ!


----------



## juliehannah58 (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 BUT I am fed up of being sneered at for my choice because AI is so fantastic, and because if we don't use AI but in hand covering or running with a stallion its irresponsible and unprofessional etc etc etc 

[/ QUOTE ] 

I think this is the issue for me in this thread, I just want people to accept that other practises besides AI go on all the time and they do work and achieve their objectives. Just because people on here are 'pro AI' (which I think is a silly phrase TBH as I am certainly all for AI myself, just I think as everything, it has its uses and so does other methods) it is unfair to belittle other peoples breeding choices because they differ from their own. 

Horse Groupie - 
I certainly do not deny there are obviously higher risks when turning mares and stallions out together but the point I am making is that any decent owner who chose this method would have surely worked that out for themselves and it is unfair to have people pointing out to them what a bad choice they have made. It not only comes across as patronising (not meaning you in particular, this is a generic statement) but also people seem unable to budge from their narrow mindedness on this subject. 

Just a tiny admission that running out and covering in hand etc has it's place in the caring and knowledgable horse owners world would be refreshing.

Judge each case by it's merits I say. 

And by saying Bbmat (sorry if I have got the name wrong, going from memory here) was naive, I meant precisely the above, i.e not taking into account that it does have it's place in modern breeding, and also I feel that statement was obviously going to be met with some hostility - if indeed previous posts have been read - it would have been obvious! I certainly was not questioning his experience in breeding at all. 

There is a huge difference between a calculated risk that an owner is willing to take based on possible outcomes, and a wreckless owner trying to do things 'on the cheap' - this is what I'm trying to get across. 

Not meaning to offend anyone at all, a good debate never hurt anyone


----------



## Gingernags (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BUT I am fed up of being sneered at for my choice

[/ QUOTE ]

DON'T you think I am fed up of being SNEERED at because I am pro AI.

FFS (and I think that is the first time I have sworn on hho!) can't nobody express an opinion backed up by facts! Its not sneering when you express an opinion backed up by facts and risk accessment to the horse! 

I think you are the one that needs to get down off of your high almighty know it all narrow minded perch and take that giant plank of wood off of your shoulder!

JEEZ! 

[/ QUOTE ]

But there is the point - I don't sneer at anyone using AI.  I think AP's stuff about AI is absolutely fascinating, had there been an AI specialist here and a stallion that I wanted locally that did AI I would certainly have considered it.

I don't know everything, I don't pretend I do, and actually I'm not taking it personally in that "ooh, someone called me naive or unprofessional" personally, but anyone who has made their choice not to use AI or studs who run stallions were all lumped together and called some choice phrases as if we all needed rounding up by the RSPCA and prosecuting!

Every time someone posts about using in hand covering or running a stallion with mares - its like all of a sudden they have to wear a sign saying "unbeliever" and the religious AI zealots jump on them to convert them to "their way".

I have no problems if someone asks "why did you choose that way" explaining it - but when get it fired at you as "why didn't you use AI its best" its a bit in your face!

I don't go on every AI post and accuse people of being unnatural and interfering too much and say everyone should cease and desist - why should they?

I just don't think anyone should have to defend their decisions on breeding at all - its THEIR choice - ask reasons certainly, but the accusatory "tone" behind it can be a bit  much!


----------



## Tia (2 August 2007)

I have to say GM, I do understand where you are coming from - it did come across the same to me too, although perhaps it wasn't really meant in this fashion?

I only breed my own mares and I always pasture breed them - this works for me and works for my horses.  My guy was not, and would never have been, standing to outside mares however, but had I chosen to allow this, then the mares would have been assessed and depending on their suitability (not only for carrying top bloodlines but also for attitude) then I would have had them run with him.  

I personally do not like in-hand natural cover (many reasons why not) and if I were breeding my own mares to outside stallions then I have to say it would be AI all the way unless the stallion was personally known to me.

I think anyone who breeds will know their horses well, as will the attending vet likely, and they will therefore make the right decision for their horses; whether that be natural in-hand, AI or pasture breeding.  What works for one, may not be the right choice for another....get over it guys!  As someone previously said, there are many ways to skin a cat.


----------



## Tia (2 August 2007)

Enfys, don't worry about it  
	
	
		
		
	


	




.  Pasture breeding of APHA's and AQHA's is generally the usual route over here; so what you are doing is perfectly normal for the breed and the country.


----------



## Michelle73 (2 August 2007)

I think that this thread has turned personal.  Some of the comments made read like personal insult replies.  Instead of slating the person for their view and telling them its wrong why not ask the questions as to why the decisions are taken the way that they are? 

I'm not as eloquent as others.  But, I would never intentionally slate anyone for their view.  I've learned very quickly on this forum to hold my toungue and quite frankly after the last two weeks on the forum I'm wondering why I bother.   I feel like I am not entitled to my own opinion or way of doing things. 

I came onto the forum to learn from other peoples wealth of experience and not to be slated for things that I don't know about or may not be wording and communicating effectively.  

I think that some people need to think about the way they are responding to others.  Perhaps you could be more contstructive and less ridiculing. 

Thats just my opinion.


----------



## izzyxxx (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wasn't worth paying out for scanning or internal on this occasion as it didn't matter whether or not she was in foal

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is a very stupid think to say, all mares should be scanned for pregnancy WHATEVER method they have been or not been covered by. You are putting a mare at risk by not having a pregancy scan done, what if she was carrying twins, risk her life and the foals.... I just don't understand people with such a don't care either way attitude to 
breeding...  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

i know this was quite early on in the post but before i say anything i am no expert by any means!!!!!!!!!!

i worked for a race horse breeder and she has been doing it years (retired now) and back in the day she acctually managed to breed a set of twins i know that it is very risky but this must have been over 40 years ago!! so i am not sure if she had a scan or what

i know its not really relavent but i just wanted you to see that people have different opinions on different situations and methods (she didn't know the mare was having twins!!btw) and there are different negative and possitive out comes so IMO we sould be able to give out experiences, opinions and preferences to aid people 
	
	
		
		
	


	





OP hope all ends up going well with your breeding venture


----------



## DollyPentreath (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I think that this thread has turned personal. Some of the comments made read like personal insult replies.

[/ QUOTE ]

My, people are so quick to take offence.

The original question was 'Which is the best way to cover a mare?' and 'Does anyone have any view on this?'

I think pretty much everyone has answered the question well and only expessed an opinion. If people take offence that's up to them, but perhaps they're taking things a little more seriously than they should.

I'm pro AI because my mare is too precious to risk. I've travelled long distances, spent more money, selected a stallion that offers frozen semen and sourced out specialists all to avoid a natural covering. That's my choice, if anyone wants to cover their mares differently that's up to them, it'll be their vets bill if the mare gets injured, not mine. I won't sneer at anyone, perhaps not understand their reasoning but certainly not sneer. Each to their own..


----------



## Gingernags (2 August 2007)

Maybe it is just accidental how its come across but it would be nicer if there was just a bit more tolerance for other peoples views.

For example - I think Htobago's lad is absolutely stunning, I can entirely understand why she wants to minimise risks to him, and yes - AI fab for that, much more controlled, no risk - well no,  less risk of any damage to him via a mare, though there are some different risks of damage with AI re: collection - though these I'd think are minimal compared to pasture breeding or in hand.

I think no less of her stallion for her choice of breeding him, nor her for choosing that route.

On the other hand, I nearly used an arab stallion for my mare.  He is also an absolutely stunning chap, a beautiful metallic bay called Rabanat, not sure about on the national scene but he and his son win a lot of arab classes up here and certainly I've seen them clear up county level.

The lady who owns him has had arab stallions as long as I can remember and a few friends have used her stallions - and she pasture breeds for a few select mares.  I had a lovely chat with her at the Cleveland show last year about my mare, who was there showjumping.  She said that if I wanted to send her, she'd have her on her smallholding, assess her temperament and then either let her run with him, or cover in hand as appropriate.

Now that again, fine by me the way she does things.  She's tremendously well respected round here, I've never ever heard of any issues and injuries from there and I know of her going back well over 20 years breeding.  She loves her animals and if this works for her and has consistently - then who is anyone to criticise her judgement, her methods and her success?

I don't know (and happy to admit it) how her stallion would compare with Htobago's value wise etc - looking at them I think they are both fantastic - both owners totally different in their approaches - but both entitled to that and who is to say that either is wrong?  I have every confidence that both owners are as professional as each other just in opposite ways and I can see merit in those ways for each owner.

(Sorry for using you as an example HT, hope you don't mind!)

Its all down to preferences and not "pro AI" and "against AI" - just letting people have their own prefereces without blanketing them in some kind of "unprofessional" blanket statement.


----------



## Enfys (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
But Enfys... you are referring to your own, settled little herd.  

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it's fabulous, and I am fortunate to have the facilities to do this. I agree with your point about just throwing horses together, everybody would I should think.

Like Tia, I am only breeding my own mares. There are reasons for me having my own stallion, I couldn't find the breed/colour (and yes, I do want colour) and temperament I liked (within about 700 miles) and he is proving to be very quiet and polite with his mares, not a kick or bite mark to be seen here. I also had a foal and a very highly strung mare that I was not at all happy about sending away for 6 weeks or so, not least because I feel that I would lose control of how they were both handled, and cared for. This way, I have a stallion of my choice, living with my mares, under my control, any mess-ups (was going to say cock-ups!) are my own fault. I also get a riding/competition horse at the same time. Until his foals are born and his training progresses I do not know whether he will be kept entire, and I don't have plans to stand him to the public, although I have been asked.

I don't have any problem with AI at all, as I see it, it is safe, controlled, convenient and an opportunity for people to use a stallion that may not previously have been available to them for sundry reasons. I would use it without hesitation if it was a pairing that I specifically wanted.

Each method has it's own merits, and demerits, thankfully, it is still something that each individual is able to make their own mind up about as to which way is best for their own situation and peace of mind.


----------



## Enfys (2 August 2007)

Gingermare...Small world, I used Rabanat (who was the spitting image of my arab mare) back in 1997/98 I think, super little horse. Great to hear that he is still around, lovely owner (Carol Lawton), very small, caring set-up and my mare came back from stud in fabulous condition, sadly she aborted and I wasn't able to use my return to him as we moved to the other end of the country.

His get were doing very well at the time and I would have used him again without a moments hesitation.


----------



## htobago (2 August 2007)

Hey - c'mon now - please let's all calm down a bit here! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I can't speak for anyone else, but it was certainly not my intention to denigrate or belittle people who choose either covering in hand or running stallions with mares! In fact I specifically said that I know this works well for some people. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





All I was trying to say was that as a personal choice, I would not risk running my stallion with unfamiliar mares - and that I am reluctant even to risk him covering in hand. I also pointed out that it is inaccurate to call either of these methods 'natural'. And that in any case we should perhaps be wary of assuming that 'natural' automatically means 'good'.

None of these statements was meant to imply any criticism of breeders who use these methods - although I admit there was some slight criticism of those who misuse language (I am a writer and former copy-editor, with a philosophy degree, so I have a bit of an obsession with semantics, and can get somewhat pedantic at times - sorry)! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I really don't think we need to divide into 'pro-AI' and 'anti-AI' camps here - or 'pro-running' and 'anti-running' for that matter. We are just exchanging views and opinions, and stating our personal preferences and choices. 






It's OK to disagree. If we all agreed, this would be a very dull forum - in fact it would barely qualify as a forum at all!


----------



## htobago (2 August 2007)

Whoops - our posts crossed in cyberspace Gingermare! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





But we seem to be saying pretty much the same thing! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Sounds as though Rabanat's owner is very caring and responsible - I would certainly not want to set myself up as in any way 'superior' just because I choose to use AI for my boy. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Is he by Banat? (Sorry - don't mean to hi-jack the thread - I'm afraid my pedigree-junkie instincts are even more annoying than my pedantic ones!) 
	
	
		
		
	


	





(P.S. Thank you for the nice comments about Tobago!)


----------



## vicijp (2 August 2007)

QR.
TBH, I find all this 'AI is the only way' attitude a bit annoying too.
Have no experience AI myself, but have a vet that starts moaning approx May every year that he 'Hates the damn [****].'
Also has a mare that with natural covering was the only way. She had 3 foals, all with in hand cover. She then failed/reabsorbed for 4 years, we spent £k's trying to sort things out. In the end we brought a stallion and ran him with a herd. That mare then had 2 healthy foals the following years.
All the injury stuff is understandable, but as with everything to do with horses I find people a little precious. Of course the risk of serious injury is a fear, but that is the same whoever you turn them out with. We lost a mre years ago that got kicked by another mare out in the field at stud.
I really dont see how bites and scratches matter in the grand scheme of things, they are horses, not made of glass.
We had a mare that same year that we decided to run in foal. She ran with the stallion for 2 weeks, came in covered in bite marks and 2 huge scratched across her ass. She won a race the week after that, another race the week after, and another race 2 weeks after.
So to round up, really couldnt give a crap how someone decides to get a mare in foal as long as its done well, and dont appreciate people belittling someones choice just because it doesnt fit in with their ideal.


----------



## AimeeLou (2 August 2007)

I have been reading this post and would like to say that my mare is a maiden and she is being ai. This is mine and her first attempt at breeding, so am totally new. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 and not sure if my oppinion is as valid. I am using ai but also would consider, in the future natural covering. I only used ai this time because she has tightened muscles over her back and my vet said that to stop the stallion doing any damage to her and vice-versa (as she's very sensitive), ai would be a more suitable option. Maybe in the future, I would let her be covered naturally, but as she's quite a tall girl, im unsure if this would work ok?
I think letting stallions run with mares, is a personal option, but not for me, as she has great potential for later in life and that I wouldnt want her injured, but i can see why some studs do it. But i can also see why some studs would cringe at the thought of it. 
Hope this doesnt offend anyone, not intended too.


----------



## Enfys (2 August 2007)

Hi Htobago, Rabanats pedigree is in the usual place, Banat is his g/sire I think. 

I was at the Bychan open day last year, and a colt foal, by Psynergy (I think) was sold on the day for a  _rumoured_  35,000 pounds. Now, if I had bought a colt worth that much, I would certainly not be risking him (and my investment) with live coverings. Regardless of the monetary value of a horse, stallion, or mare, AI is the method with the least physical (kicks/bites/strains etc) risks (as far as I can see) so I can certainly understand why anbody would choose it, especially for a show or competition horse where soundness etc really matters.


----------



## Gingernags (2 August 2007)

I'll see if I can find out for you!  I'm sure I did find some of it out but I decided not to use him only because of his height.  I have a soft spot for Arabs and both Rabanat and Rudi (the son) are such a rich but metallic bay, they are real eyecatchers, but at 14.3 and my mare being 15hh, I ran the risk of getting something too small as I'm not tall at all but certainly chunky and I don't want to drop under 15hh.

And of course I have to love your lad, ginger horses are the best IM (humble)O!

Enfys is right about the breeder - small world then - she lives about 5 miles from where I keep my orange one - I've hacked past her front door!  She used to have another gorgeous arab stallion called Fire Gold who the pony a friend of mine rode went to, and ran with, about 15 years ago so I think its just what has always worked for her.  She produces some wonderful horses. 

In an ideal world I would have used AI but as has been said - really if you do you want a specialist that you know does things right and properly - that would mean moving the mare quite a distance away and I would not want that - where mine has gone is a nice small set up about 12 miles away, and it feels very personal and quiet - I drop in whenever I want and have free use of the school, and the place just feels like home.  Asti walked out of the trailer, into a paddock, and never turned a hair and it was lovely to see her instantly settle - you know when you just realise something is spot on?  Mind you they laugh at me about how spoiled she is with her wardrobe and accessories!

To be fair I was a bit ambivalent about covering in hand though as I used to be a stud groom I've done my fair bit, but it didn't help having my sister going on about it being "rape" - however as this particular stallion is not doing AI as he's only covering about 3 of their mares and maybe the same in outside mares - I still decided it was our best option as like I said, the pluses of the set up there and that particular stallion were what I wanted.

Hopefully everything will settle now and no-one will feel they daren't post!


----------



## Fahrenheit (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 Horse Groupie - 
I certainly do not deny there are obviously higher risks when turning mares and stallions out together but the point I am making is that any decent owner who chose this method would have surely worked that out for themselves and it is unfair to have people pointing out to them what a bad choice they have made. It not only comes across as patronising (not meaning you in particular, this is a generic statement) but also people seem unable to budge from their narrow mindedness on this subject. 

Just a tiny admission that running out and covering in hand etc has it's place in the caring and knowledgable horse owners world would be refreshing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never said I am anti covering in hand and to keep saying that the pro AIs has we have been labeled have said they are is just twisting what they have said, I have never said I am anti covering in hand, as I have already stated one of my stallions covers in hand so why keep bring in hand covering into a debate about running mares with the stallions is pointless has no one said they are anti doing that, they may have said they prefer not to but they have never said covering in hand is wrong.

You don't think it is patronising to call someone naive?? You don't think its patronising for someone to tell people that the 'pro AIs' are sneering at people and are on their high dummy mares! 

Double standards comes to mind! It seems perfectly alright for people to have digs at the people who use AI but its not alright for people who use AI to have their opinion too, just because people disagree does not mean you have to call them naive! That is getting personal in my book and if you don't want to be spoken back to in the same way then you shouldn't call someone who is clearly very knowledgable naive.  I haven't taken umbridge with the way anyone has spoken to me in this thread until someone said we are sneering at people!

I thought you made some very good debates on your views earlier, you stated on here (not exact words but the gist was) that running the mare with the stallion doesn't necessarily mean people are trying to cut costs and how it was nothing to do with your decision, I respected you for that but then I read your blog and in which you state:
 [ QUOTE ]
 to let nature take it's course at first and avoid expensive vet treatment 

[/ QUOTE ]

I am also certain that you wouldn't have been allowed to run your mare with the stallion of your choice if it wasn't for the fact that he is permanently lame.

I also already clarified my opinions earlier that my point of view is based on sport horse breeding and stallions that are top competition horses or potentially the next top competition horses being risked running out with mares and that its my opinion why would you risk it, I also clarified that it didn't include retired horses or permanently injured horses.

I would also like to add that when I say retired horses and permanently lame horses, I also include the average joe stallion and people owns little group at home in that.  My whole opinion is (as I have already stated previously but no one bothered to take note of that bit) is that the Arko's and ProSets and the possible next Arko's and ProSets, shouldn't be risked running with mares!


----------



## spottysport (2 August 2007)

Have to agree with vicijp. The best way is the way that works for that particular mare! Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't get any more expensive than some of the TB racing stallions - and they can't even consider A.I. Personally, I like a mare to have a bit of fun, and know what it's all about - then I use A.I. if the stallion is too far away/not practical. I am of the opinion though that too many stallions are wrapped up in cotton wool - they don't know or care what they're valued at, and jumping a lump of plastic several times a week must be pretty monotonous!


----------



## trelawnyhorses1 (2 August 2007)

horsegroupie [ QUOTE ]
 I think that is a very stupid think to say, all mares should be scanned for pregnancy WHATEVER method they have been or not been covered by. You are putting a mare at risk by not having a pregancy scan done, what if she was carrying twins, risk her life and the foals.... I just don't understand people with such a don't care either way attitude to breeding...  



[/ QUOTE ] i totally agree with this..
we will let our stallion run with the odd mare and i know a number of high performance stallions allowed to have a mare to run with however these are usually mares which are broodies that know there job and are very well behaved, our stallion will jus go and eat grass if he knows that the mare isnt intrested


----------



## mat (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Have to agree with vicijp. The best way is the way that works for that particular mare! Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't get any more expensive than some of the TB racing stallions - and they can't even consider A.I. Personally, I like a mare to have a bit of fun, and know what it's all about - then I use A.I. if the stallion is too far away/not practical. I am of the opinion though that too many stallions are wrapped up in cotton wool - they don't know or care what they're valued at, and jumping a lump of plastic several times a week must be pretty monotonous! 

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is the stallion's owners DO know how they are valued and like it or not, they need to be looked after. Would you let achild play by the side of a motorway? err... NO!! 

Guys...It has been proven complete **** that Natural is the only way for some mares. The only reason that AI wouldnt work is bad management/inexperience. The reason that it may not have worked as stated somewhere bove is because when covered naturally the mare produces oxytocin which helps her to get pregnant. This is now usually injected, or an experienced AI tec will massage the cervix to help the mare to produce it for herself.


Also, remember the title of the post guys! Its asking for peoples opinions on the best way to cover a mare.. the whole point of this forum is for opinions and debates.. if you feel you are losing an argument getting catty wont help your cause!(saying someone is naive because you dont agree with their views is a bit childish...)


----------



## spottysport (2 August 2007)

Actually, I am pretty sick and tired of EVERYTHING being wrapped in blooming cotton wool these days! NO i would not let a child play beside a motorway, but I would allow it the chance of some freedom - precious few kids have any independence this day and age. But that is not the point. Horses have been doing what comes natural for several MILLION years. Then along we come and say, sh*g that lump of plastic, live entirely alone, have absolutely no herd, no hierarchy ect... Do you think that's better? I am not against ANY form of breeding, but I do think that just because a horse is worth X amount it shouldn't have a life. As I said before IMO it depends enormously on the mare, and what suits her/her cycle/her owner best.


----------



## Fahrenheit (2 August 2007)

Who says the horses don't have a life, all my stallions get daily turn out, as do alot of other AI based studs, they do not live entirely alone, mine live on a yard where they can see everything that is going on, there is mares and gelding on the same yard and are very content, they have lovely personalities and are as happy as any of my other horses, they go on hacks with other horses and do not live a life of solitary as people like to believe that we keep them in! It still doesn't mean I am going to run them with mares and take unnecessary risks with them... to me turn out is a necessary risk for my horse to take, being exercised is a necessary risk for my horse to take... but running with mares in unnecessary risk for him to take, when he can cover inhand or even better be used via AI reducing the risks.


----------



## Navalgem (2 August 2007)

This is getting silly and judgemental now, as the (hopefully responsible) owner of a colt I find it rather harsh to suggest the stallions dont have a life and are miserable.  Most stallions get some form of turnout that is enough, and suggesting we are bad owners because we dont let them run in a herd is ridiculous.

As stated earlier, re visiting mares being turned out with a stallion:  most horses have some kicking and biting matches when they are firts turned out together, be it geldings, mares, even yearlings can 'fight'.  As most stallion ownders are probably competing their stallion, this would be extremely unadvisable, I wouldn't look at a stallion with lumps out of it, thinking that it wasn't being taken care of properly and it would make the stallion look shabby in the least.

Also, if a stallion got loose could you imaging what would happen if it covered a mare it shouldn't, or the RSPCA bright sparks came along and gelded it?!


----------



## Damien (2 August 2007)

Regarding twining .... many of my colleagues have been breeding for 30 years plus, a few for over 50.... back in the day they did not have scanners and did not have the possibility of detecting/pinching twins.. 

Most have moved with the times and are scanning and frequently having twins removed but others don't and still breed in the most natural of ways, no vets, no scanners, no science. 

The general consensus between them during a recent discussion was that on a prorata basis they all felt  very few mares ever had twins / lost twins through abortion in comparison to the number of twins that are removed by pinching by their vets and that when left to mother nature she was was adequately equipped to deal with the eventual ties?? your thoughts..???

On the AI V Au Natural debate, I have to to agree that the manner that some posters express their views does come across as categorising those that breed in hand or by natural  as negligent, irresponsible and unprofessional even if it is not the intention.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Its a shame we don't have a few more experienced racing stud breeders as members as I feel this thread would be reading quite differently,  as they most definitely hold their stallions and horses in high regards.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





If the risks were truly as high as some are portraying the industry would have changed over many years ago.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Personally we use all three methods, so am neither for nor against and see the benefits of all but evidently understand that if ones livelihood depends on one method and one method only they are more likely have a tendency to "preach"


----------



## spottysport (2 August 2007)

I know of a few  (expensive) stallions that run with their mares, and still go out and compete ect... IMO they are much more relaxed in a show atmosphere, because at the end of the day they are going back to their herd. They are used to interaction with other horses. The stallion that is kept just for covering dummy or mare is bound to be more wound up! It's just common sense. If you can't afford to lose a horse, you shouldn't have it - as we all know they can kill themselves walking up a field! The breeder just has to decide which is the best method of covering for their mare, I prefer to let the mare at least try it naturally once. But that is my preference.


----------



## Damien (2 August 2007)

Some very good points SH. Our two year colt runs with our herd and has gained weight and condition living in a herd environment being introduced after all but one mare was scanned in foal. He respects the mares who are happy to interact with him, the foals play with him and the herd is well and truly respectful of the hierarchy that is in place. All horses living together with other horses risk being kicked or bitten everyday they spend together, even in the most well established herd environments. The under fives are the most aggressive and difficult as they have usually not yet found their status within the group.


----------



## mat (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I am pretty sick and tired of EVERYTHING being wrapped in blooming cotton wool these days! NO i would not let a child play beside a motorway, but I would allow it the chance of some freedom - precious few kids have any independence this day and age. But that is not the point. Horses have been doing what comes natural for several MILLION years. Then along we come and say, sh*g that lump of plastic, live entirely alone, have absolutely no herd, no hierarchy ect... Do you think that's better? I am not against ANY form of breeding, but I do think that just because a horse is worth X amount it shouldn't have a life. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think that you can really say that they where brought from the wild in their natural state and told to shag a dummy.. we have already taken them out of their habitat, changed their diet, changed their behaviour, pretty much domesticated them. They are sometimes kept in stables, wormed, vaccinated, see a farrier...why is it people think they can make exceptions when it comes to breeding and put their horses at unnecessary risk just so they can say its more natural?(I am well aware that however much you try to protect horses they have a way of injuring themselves anyway)

As horse owners I BELIEVE we take a responsibility to do the best for our horses and to keep them safe and sound, fit and healthy. If people feel that they want to see horses in their natural state  I would personally prefer they go for a holiday in the new forest/exmoor and not own/breed horses themselves! It worries me a lot...

My horses are all perfectly happy, enjoy their work and their routines. I do what I think makes them happy without risking their safety unnecessarily. IT IS MY OPINION that running mares and stallions together when they are unfamiliar with each other is bad practice. It does not mean that I am making a statement about the character of the people that choose to do it. 

I do hope that the mare has a "nice" time at stud and comes back healthy and pregnant. I'm sure she will!


----------



## Fahrenheit (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 I know of a few  (expensive) stallions that run with their mares, and still go out and compete ect... IMO they are much more relaxed in a show atmosphere, because at the end of the day they are going back to their herd. They are used to interaction with other horses. The stallion that is kept just for covering dummy or mare is bound to be more wound up! It's just common sense. 

[/ QUOTE ]

My stallions are nothing less than impeccible at shows and are no more wound up because they only cover a dummy than any stallion that runs with mares. My stallion stands in the corner of the collecting ring with horses buzzing past and people stand really close to him and have absolutely no idea they are even in the presence of a stallion (dispite his disks and ribbons) when someone gets abit close for safety sake I say just be aware he is a stallion (he usually has his eyes shut and is snoozing it neither here nor there to him).

As for saying, if you can't afford to lose a horse, you shouldn't have it, well.........  actually I am not going to even dignify that with a response.


----------



## springfallstud (2 August 2007)

I am pro AI but Anti my vets costs  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Andy Pandy do you run an AI centre? Excuse my ignorance but i am still a newbie here...my profile says so


----------



## mat (2 August 2007)

vets costs are a nuisance but I'm sure your foals are worth it!\


----------



## Navalgem (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't afford to lose a horse, you shouldn't have it

[/ QUOTE ]

can barely believe I'm hearing this!  I'm aghast!  This has NOTHING to do with cost.  No one wants to lose a horse, the reason we take precautions is to MINIMISE the risks and try to prevent that happening and I don't believe anyone here thinks that horses can't seriously injure themselves whilst in a field, being ridden or even in the stable.  

Opie are you planning to let the colt run out as a 3 and 4 year old?  Just curious.  I'd be happy for my 2 year old to live in a heard but not so sure if I would when I'm getting him ready for being backed or competeing.


----------



## AndyPandy (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Horses have been doing what comes natural for several MILLION years.

[/ QUOTE ] 

Indeed they did. Wild horses began to develop about 55 million years ago. But they were just that... WILD.

[ QUOTE ]
Then along we come and say, sh*g that lump of plastic, live entirely alone, have absolutely no herd, no hierarchy ect... Do you think that's better? 

[/ QUOTE ]

About 6,500 years ago, domestication of horses began. Domesticated horses and wild horses are very different. When people own horses, whether or not they breed, they are not taking a wild horse that has grown up wild and suddenly isolating it. They are taking a domesticated horse, that has been transformed from a wild horse by up to 6,500 years of selected breeding, and keeping it in the environment in which it has grown up. If a horse runs with a herd all its life, then it will understand how to behave. If you take a domesticated horse, and suddenly throw it into a situation which is natural for a wild horse.. you're asking for trouble. Nature stopped playing as much of a role when we started domesticating the horse. You simply cannot argue that natural covering is better for the horses in that respect.

[ QUOTE ]
I am not against ANY form of breeding, but I do think that just because a horse is worth X amount it shouldn't have a life. As I said before IMO it depends enormously on the mare, and what suits her/her cycle/her owner best. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Perhaps everyone should stop riding/owning horses? That is really the only way they would have a "life" as you describe it. Otherwise, people taking "care" of their horses... well, that's wrapping them in cotton wool, isn't it? Trimming feet, shoes, grooming, vaccinations, worming, feed, supplements... all things that we do because we value our animals.

So, it is the same if you choose to cover natually or with AI. It is just another way in which you care for the horse. But, as I've outlined above, I believe that natural covering, when there are alternatives available, is unecessarily risky for the animals involved.


----------



## springfallstud (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
vets costs are a nuisance but I'm sure your foals are worth it!\ 

[/ QUOTE ]

Def worth it! Just sometimes wish obtainable market value was better in the UK, so far i think in my breeding project i am at a loss but thats all for a new thread i think lol


----------



## mat (2 August 2007)

ooh that is a big fat can of worms!!!


----------



## AndyPandy (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you can't afford to lose a horse, you shouldn't have it

[/ QUOTE ]

can barely believe I'm hearing this!  I'm aghast!  This has NOTHING to do with cost.  No one wants to lose a horse, the reason we take precautions is to MINIMISE the risks and try to prevent that happening and I don't believe anyone here thinks that horses can't seriously injure themselves whilst in a field, being ridden or even in the stable. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite agree with the voice of reason - Navalgem. 

The first quote from SpottySport - what are you on about? How do you think the whole basis of the horse world works? How do you think anyone makes a living from it, and who do you think supplies the horses?! People who make a living out of breeding and training horses. These people can't afford to take risks with animals that might help feed or clothe them, and as for more expensive stallions - maybe they don't need the money so much. But money aside, everyone should do the best to take care of their horse. 

For those of you who don't think it happens - read this  Story of an unlucky stallion. Granted, this is about mules, but the principle is still the same: I am just using this article as it is well written and describes the points that most people here are trying to make.


----------



## Fahrenheit (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
ooh that is a big fat can of worms!!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

a big fat can of worms.....but I thought you told me you had chinese for tea!


----------



## Damien (2 August 2007)

Opie are you planning to let the colt run out as a 3 and 4 year old? Just curious. I'd be happy for my 2 year old to live in a heard but not so sure if I would when I'm getting him ready for being backed or competeing. 

Chances are he will follow the same pattern as the other boys have, he will leave us for training as a rising three year old, then return to us next spring/summer after licensing, but yes he will run with his mares (our mares only) as a three and four year old as with the other two in competition his training will be onhold for a few years yet. 

You are more than welcome to come and visit and watch them interact. There is so much talk of accidents risks and danger in these threads I think you would find it interesting to see that that is far from reality. Stallions mares and horses in general are very very cautious amongst one another.


----------



## Navalgem (2 August 2007)

lol, shouldn't say that opie I'd love to come and see the foals anyway! lol

I dunno, I'm a bit divided, my own mares whom he'd been with a long time would be one thing but def wouldn't let him run with visiting or 'strange' mares.

I used my colt on my mare this year and it was his 1st time and he was (for the most part) naturally cautious about it and and approached the mare carefully, the 2nd occassion he covered he was a bit like a bull in a china shop and was kicked and luckily only took some skin off but it settled him down and he was sesible therafter.  However, it is so unlike my mare to kick (had 5 stallions jump on her 2 years previous to try and cover her) and it did make me wary. Also some stallions have died after being kicked by a mare and I also understnad and desire to minmise the risks as far as possible.


----------



## htobago (2 August 2007)

Opie if I understand you correctly you will only be running your colt with your own mares?

Do any of your stallions at stud run out with  *visiting*  mares? Or would you consider that too high a risk?

(No criticism implied or intended either way - just curious, as your horses are clearly valuable, high-quality beasties!)


----------



## Damien (2 August 2007)

lol, shouldn't say that opie I'd love to come and see the foals anyway! lol

Great any time! Did you cover her inhand or loose? Many mares are intimidated when approached by a stallion from behind, in their natural state they observe the mare daily and approach her when she starts giving signals that she is receptive, winking, peeing, and evidently stallions are very sensitive to change of odor in a mares urine and dung hence the reason the spend so much time sniffing the ground. From personal observation, stallions prefer to approach a mare from the front, noses meet and if the mare is receptive she will swing her body round to meet his and he will 9 times out of 10 mount her from the side not from behind as a safety net, if the mare squeals stamps or kicks the stallion knows to back off and he will await a more opertune moment. Mares also prefer to know the stallion that they are likely to mate with so turning a mare in season out with a stallion she has never met hoping everything will go to plan is unlikely to work, several weeks later after introduction the story is quite different.


----------



## Navalgem (2 August 2007)

I covered her inhand.  his stable is right next to the arena we use to cover in and he'd teased her well himself (noses first) then down her neck and withers and sniffed her quarters, she won't move after a stallion has gone near her so we turned her and cal's handler just let him walk a circle whilst she was moved (I was hoping he'd move round himself but bless it was his 1st time), then he stood behind at a distance and extended his nose and slowly crept forward whilst wickering, teased her closer for a minute til she squirted and squatted, then he jumped up, did the deed and jumped off and calmly went back to bed, and didn't even leave his net as we walked her back past!  (The pic in far right of my sig was taken just after he covered her the 2nd time)


----------



## Damien (2 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
  Opie if I understand you correctly you will only be running your colt with your own mares? 

Do any of your stallions at stud run out with visiting mares? Or would you consider that too high a risk?

[/ QUOTE ] 

We only run our colt with our own mares, not due to the high risk but because we rarely take visiting mares in order to preserve our grazing, we never know what the climate will throw at us each year. 

We have a local AI centre BMQ approved with over 30 years experience with acces to the best equine reproduction vets from the Royal Dick Vet for problem cases close by so prefer to request that mares be sent there, or semen is shipped to mare owners.


----------



## Navalgem (2 August 2007)

I said right and meant left, oops!


----------



## Damien (2 August 2007)

Glad to hear it worked out well, when is she to be scanned?


----------



## spottysport (3 August 2007)

IN MY OPINION as I said, I think a mare should be covered in a way that suits her/her owner/the stallion best.  Yes I sounded a bit harsh saying that if you can't afford to lose a horse you shouldn't have it, but as we all know accidents can happen in the stable, as well as in the covering shed. I only pointed out that due to their value, some stallions are kept quite unnaturally. I have used A.I. my mare has run with a stallion and has been covered in hand. It depended on what was right that year for that mare!
That is only MY opinion.


----------



## juliehannah58 (3 August 2007)

Bbmat &amp; Horsegroupie  I did not say you are naïve, I said the statement was naïve and I have explained why. Perhaps naïve was the wrong phrase, but I have explained why I said it and I feel that saying you cant understand why people would turn mares and stallions out together is a bit tunnel vision ? I was just saying, as I have said lots of times, you have to judge each case by its merits. I am by no means as experienced a breeder or probably horse owner as either of you, but I still stand by what I said originally that sweeping statements on a forum like this with so many different people with different aims (as you say HG, pony breeding is very different to say TB breeding) is bound to cause a debate of some kind. 

And it wasnt I who suggested I was being sneered at for my choices, I just feel this forum can be bias at times, although I like to think Ive remained light hearted about this debate throughout, as bbmat has said (more recently) lets not forget the original post  I was trying to get across that everyone has different opinions and methods, but lets not discount anyones for sake of our own. I certainly do not have a bad word to say about AI or any practises, as I have maintained throughout. 

HG  I was advised on what was the best method to cover my mare, both vets and stud owner advised this way forward as first try, namely because she was so stressy and apparently that was affecting her fluid amounts. After spending £4000 on vet treatments for her leg problem in March this year, I dont consider myself stingy with vets! Hopefully I now have a mare who is happy to be covered and stay at stud, which is what I wanted above all. Infact, the stud owner does AI for no extra cost, so I havent gained anything. Also, I did mention that the stallion was old and retired in an earlier post. 

I put forward my circumstances to show that a decision had been made to use the method I did and why, which I feel is justified. I have been a member on here for a long time and whilst I mostly read, I enjoy being involved in things like this (even if it gets a bit heated!) as it gives a chance to learn other peoples experiences and views in what is a very changing market. 

*Deep breaths everyone*


----------



## juliehannah58 (3 August 2007)

Also just to add that I haven't read all the replies before posting the above - this post is like a runaway train!

I also DO agree that no part of breeding these days is 'natural', in fact, very little about anything we do with our horses is natural these days. I guess running a herd is the closest you can get, and very few people managed this.


----------



## magic104 (3 August 2007)

Oh dear what a shame, this debate has at times resembled something from the Lounge or Soapbox!!  I dont believe some of the comments made on here.  For instance cant afford to loose a horse dont have one!  I have lost 2 mares to broken legs, they were insured so yes I could afford to loose them, but I would rather not have gone through the emotional turmoil.  We dictate how are horses live &amp; most of the time it is a far removed from nature as it could be.  We choose our mares mate not her.  As much as it is nice to see the stallion run with his mares, it is not always practical.  Covering in hand can be dangerous not just for the mare &amp; stallion but for the handlers as well.  A stud may well know how the stallion will react/behave, but will have little idea about the mare.  In hand coverings more often then not hobble, &amp; twitch the mares, I dont see what is natural about that!  Unless the stallion runs with his mares &amp; there is no interference then there is nothing natural about getting a mare in-foal.  Also as for comments like "have their bit of fun", this may have been a flippent comment, as we have no idea what an animal feels, but if they do enjoy copulation perhaps they would be more receptive other then when they are in season..


----------



## htobago (3 August 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 [ QUOTE ]
  Opie if I understand you correctly you will only be running your colt with your own mares? 

Do any of your stallions at stud run out with visiting mares? Or would you consider that too high a risk?

[/ QUOTE ] 

We only run our colt with our own mares, not due to the high risk but because we rarely take visiting mares in order to preserve our grazing, we never know what the climate will throw at us each year. 

We have a local AI centre BMQ approved with over 30 years experience with acces to the best equine reproduction vets from the Royal Dick Vet for problem cases close by so prefer to request that mares be sent there, or semen is shipped to mare owners. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks - hope you don't mind me being nosey! The vast majority of my boy's mares this year have been AI'd at home or at their local vets/AI centre, using shipped, chilled semen (plus a few overseas ones using frozen semen). This seems to be what many breeders want nowadays. Fine, but it does mean that one is dependent on the vets the other end doing their job properly...

Most of them are great, but some had some odd ideas and ways of doing things. My YO was worried about one vet, for example, who receved the chilled semen, shipped overnight, before 9am, as promised, but then put it in the fridge and waited until the evening to inseminate??? YO was like "er, surely the best place for semen is in the mare, not sitting in a fridge for 12 hours"????


----------



## Damien (3 August 2007)

It's likewise for us htobago 90% of our bookings are for fresh chilled semen within the UK for McJonnas and frozen semen for Umenno within the UK and over seas but would not say its because that's what most people want but because there are no other alternatives / or for practicality reasons such as not wanting to travel mares long distances.

However as many studs will tell you there is still very much a demand for natural service especially withijn a stallions local vacinity. E.G. We have a few clients that return every year and will opt for whatever stallion we may be standing for natural service because that is what they want, but in the main we tend to point mare owners in the direction of our local AI centre as we really do not want to be taking in mares during the busy summer season.

[ QUOTE ]
Most of them are great, but some had some odd ideas and ways of doing things. My YO was worried about one vet, for example, who receved the chilled semen, shipped overnight, before 9am, as promised, but then put it in the fridge and waited until the evening to inseminate??? YO was like "er, surely the best place for semen is in the mare, not sitting in a fridge for 12 hours"???? 

[/ QUOTE ] 

On the whole the majority of the vets and AI centres that we have dealt with over the years have been fantastic as many mare owners tend to be sport horse breeders who have access to experienced vets and AI centres but yes things do crop up from time to time that makes you raise your eyebrows.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





More often that not I find the difficulties arise when the single mare owner chooses to breed the mare at home using her own local vet and it's at times like these we notice that the success results tend to decrease. A few clients who have gone down this route despite advising them to find a local experienced AI centre have ended up extremely disapointed with the mare not in foal and a massive bill to boot! and I find that quite frustrating.


----------



## Navalgem (3 August 2007)

Opie she was scanned at 16 days and again at 23 days (vet thought possible twin at 16 days and wanted to re-scan), 23day scan showed heartbeat.  due end of april.


----------



## Damien (3 August 2007)

Congrats! Our first is also due in April our colts first mare is at 14 days today since first covering, so will have her scanned tomorow or Sunday.


----------



## Navalgem (3 August 2007)

Will cross my fingers for you!  My last foal was born on August 1st and I definately wanted an earlier one, late April should be ok, with it getting warmer. (Though I might wish I'd had her covered later when I'm getting up shivering in the depths of night!)  Think May has seen some of the best weather for the last 2 years.


----------



## htobago (3 August 2007)

I have to say that the vast majority of the vets and AI centres inseminating Tobago's mares have been great too! As you say - it's just the odd one or two that are a bit worrying. 

I'm really not expert enough to know whether it was completely daft of that vet to stick the semen in the fridge all day - but the YO at Cliveden is very experienced, and she was worried by this.


----------



## Anastasia (4 August 2007)

Phew I missed all the fun on this one...................LOL


----------



## Damien (4 August 2007)

Thats not like you.............


----------



## MissIndependance (4 August 2007)

This year we have covered most of our mares by AI - and this is our first year doing so - usually we send them away and they're covered in hand.

The huge plus point for us with AI is that it massively broadens the choice of stallions available.

We also covered one mare in hand and the stallion was very well behaved and it was very straightforward.

When we have our own boys up and running we will train them to use a dummy and AV - and will probably AI our own mares on site, purely to cut out risks of kicks etc


----------



## druid (4 August 2007)

Completely off topic but Opie what is the breeding of the grey foal in your signature?


----------



## Damien (4 August 2007)

Hi Druid. Surprisingly she is not grey  She is a dark chocolate palomino...... her baby coat is/was cream, mane and tail cream but she is shedding out at the moment, the photo was taken in low evening light so the warmer colour is not coming through, she is by our cremello stallion McJonnas out of a Bavarian mare by the now deceased Bavarian stallion Kataract that stood at Straloch Stud I believe. Her owners are going to call me when she is fully shed out and I will go and take some more photos in better lighting. Oh and her mom is liver chestnut. Now I want a liver chestnut mare  However have no idea if the same colour will ever be reproduced, I am very interested to see if she produces the same colour foal next year.


----------



## druid (4 August 2007)

Dammit - I wanted one the colour in the pic 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Palomino sounds good though - please post pics when you get some of her fully shed out


----------



## rema (5 August 2007)

Can i jump in on this thread too?.I have worked at a stud where they had three of there own stallions and 20 odd mares with a few visiting mares.They used to mainly cover in hand but the older of the three stallions was a complete gent and would run with his girls.There wasen't alot of talk back then of AI (we are talking shire horses).Although the super premium stallion Trelow Father Abraham then was shipped to Australia and now does AI.

I too have a maiden mare (she is 8) and i am doing the research into whether to have her AI'd,natural or frozen or chilled.The particular stallion i like does natural and chilled but i want to do best by my girl and give her the best chance of taking with the least chance of causing her problems.I find this thread very interesting with everybody giving good advice and prefering thier own way of covering.God it's such a minefield isen't it!.So any advice regarding my mare would be appreciated.Thanks.


----------



## Anastasia (5 August 2007)

Opie, we just know each other too darn well....................ROFL


----------



## Damien (5 August 2007)

U sure?


----------



## Damien (5 August 2007)

Hbtago yes its a bit of a silly thing to do some practices just aren't aware that semen stores better in the mare than it does in the fridge..


----------



## htobago (5 August 2007)

Thanks Opie - I thought it sounded a bit daft. I hope to goodness the mare is in foal (waiting for scans atm), as this vet was responsible for AI-ing two of the very best mares we had this year - big winners in the show ring, fabulous pedigrees, etc., etc.  Really top-class mares. If they are not in foal I will be very cross!


----------

