# AHAR Animal Heaven Animal Rescue Exposed.



## puppyalert (17 January 2017)

AHAR was exposed in a programe this evening on RTE 1 on the Clare Byrne show, you can watch it 30 mins from the start by going to this link. http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/


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## showpony (17 January 2017)

A total eye opener.. long overdue!


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## MiniMilton (17 January 2017)

Its crazy to think this has been going on for so many years and only now the charities regulator is stepping in. One person having total access to bank accounts and withdrawing half a million in cash over 3 years with little record keeping. You just cant do that as a charity.
Not to mention rehoming horses to the uk that were unfit to travel... oh and recorded on tape requesting tgat somebody does a driveby and throws a brick in someones window?!


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## ycbm (17 January 2017)

Can someone summarise the main findings, please? I don't have enough broadband to run it.


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## LD&S (17 January 2017)

Cases of dogs being rehomed that really weren't well enough, one was pts emaciated dehydrated etc 5 days after rehoming, dogs sent to uk without passports or rabies jabs.
Horses rehomed that had no passports and some only had a body score of 1/5.
Continually stating it was all volunteers but the 'owner' was paid as was her accomadation also at times another two staff were being paid, thousands of euro withdrawn at atms and no records to say what the money went on.
Appeals launched to 'save' animals, mainly horses, that were in fact not at risk of slaughter or cruelty as the public were led to believe also appeals to buy animals that were already at AHAR.
People that disagreed with AHAR had stories put around accusing them of being drug addicts scumbags etc.
Accounts not made available and general dealings had no transparency.
They have 4 weeks to get an accountant in and ensure records are properly kept and the committee must act as a committee not just be in the background allowing the 'owner' to do what she wants.

I think that covers most but if I've missed anything hopefully someone will fill in the gaps.


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## Dobiegirl (17 January 2017)

The manager was invited to contribute but refused, they have issued a statement this morning saying they will allow more transparency whilst deleting anyone who asks questions, same old same old. The committee as I understand it are a relation of the manager and their girlfriend.

Ahar are complaining it was a very one sided programme as they showed no success stories, that depends on what perspective you are looking at when you see how much money is unaccounted for.


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## Dobiegirl (17 January 2017)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI8cvb1zo4I



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xicDvpwne0Y


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## Kaylum (17 January 2017)

Here is a good thread to read about them.  Glad something might finally be done.  

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?734656-More-revelations-on-AHAR&highlight=ahar


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## Dobiegirl (17 January 2017)

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...ation-to-keep-financial-records-35372081.html


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## rascal (17 January 2017)

Really do not understand WHY so many people support this dump. 
If the programme was so one sided, why did they not go on it and put their side? Have something to hide do they? They refuse to answer any questions, so obviously they do have something they are trying to hide.


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## Dobiegirl (17 January 2017)

http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9_10672431_53_17-01-2017_

Last nights programme was also covered on the Joe Duffy show, after the Ahar bit if you scroll along to 56 minutes there is more.

I dont understand how anyone can continue to support this charity but reading on their page from some of their supporters they are saying they do not want to watch the programme and totally support Ahar, blind faith eh or utter stupidity.


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## rascal (17 January 2017)

Utter stupidity. You know what they say, ignorance is bliss! If these people will not listen, then nothing is going to change.


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## AloneInTheDark (18 January 2017)

Fingers crossed this may the start. 
Spotted yesterday McConalogue calls on Minister to examine AHAR funding stream  http://www.donegaldaily.com/2017/01/17/mcconalogue-calls-on-minister-to-examine-ahar-funding-stream/

Looks like AHAR may be back on live line later today show starts at 1.45pm http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9_-2_135_18-01-2017_


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## Cortez (18 January 2017)

Has anyone on here ever been to AHAR?


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## AloneInTheDark (18 January 2017)

Not me, a family member does some fundraising for animal charities and we've all hear stories for years about the place. Nearly every charity refuses to deal with them. Like the lady said yesterday on Live Line you have to keep visiting the place for weeks to see that the same animals are still there and still in the same condition. They were speaking about sick and weak horses in supports at the time.


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## Equi (18 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Has anyone on here ever been to AHAR?
		
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I know you have been one of the success stories but you still can't explain all that money being spent buying animals from dealers and saying they are rescued. No one knows how much she spends BUYING Animals because it's all just cash withdrawals for thousands of pounds.


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## ester (18 January 2017)

There's a lot of places I haven't been or things I haven't done but as with everything that doesn't stop me weighing up the evidence and forming an opinion. And before It gets said no the evidence is not all one sided, there are certain practices they are quite open about which I am against before we get to the rest of the debacle. Of course if you act as middleman for enough animals you might stumble upon a few successes but that doesn't mean you have been following any sort of good practice.


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## AloneInTheDark (18 January 2017)

One thing that stood out for me in the live line show was they don't have enough resources and people so animals not getting water and food. To me that is cruelty and enough to get them shut down. Also their supporters saying people should support them.....


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## Dobiegirl (18 January 2017)

I dont get the whole thing about giving them notice before an Inspection, if I know Im having visitors my house is spotless, visit unexpectedly and its pot luck, it wont be A1 but not bad either. Even after these pre-arranged notices though the dept have still found problems just imagine what they would find with a spot inspection.


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## ycbm (18 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Has anyone on here ever been to AHAR?
		
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As long as it is true that they buy horses from a meat man, I don't feel I need to visit to know that this organisation is not serving the interests of horses on a general level.


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## stormox (18 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Has anyone on here ever been to AHAR?
		
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Yes Cortez. And a  lot of my friends here in Kerry have. The manager and her sidekicks have given people a  lot of abuse when theyve helped them I helped with their collections at times and all I got was rude and obscene words from the manager because I stood and waited for people to  put money in, I was told I should be knocking on car windows when they were in the traffic queue at the lights, and actually go up to people and shake my tin under their noses..  Thats why they dont have local volunteers- shes alienated them all. I had death threats against me, and was called poisonous, bitch and viper because I bought a puppy at a fair after I lost my old 15yr jack russell, she bought the rest of the litter (at 11am straight after Id bought mine, she didnt wait until the fair was ended to see if they hadnt been sold, no one else got a chance to buy one) and she thought she should have mine as well. She had her ones sent to UK and rehomed through  Allsorts Dog Rescue. I found pic on FB of them at Allsorts a month after she'd bought them with a rehoming fee of £200-250.


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## Cortez (18 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			As long as it is true that they buy horses from a meat man, I don't feel I need to visit to know that this organisation is not serving the interests of horses on a general level.
		
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I don't think purchasing animals (not just horses) from the meat man or at fairs is a good idea either and just serves to perpetuate the cycle of overbreeding and neglect. I have a dog from AHAR, I collected him before xmas, I paid the fee for Sammy's castration & innoculations directly to the vet practise. A lot of the more lurid allegations are unlikely, and certainly when I was there the place was  clean, organised and open - actually better than some of the other rescues I've seen. I saw some things that were not what I would have done, and it was full up, but there was nothing that would have me contacting the authorities. I have no doubt that Suzanne Gibbons is not easy to get along with, she's obviously totally immersed in the whole animal rescue experience - passionate people are often a little nuts, but it makes me uncomfortable when things progress to a witch hunt, which I feel is happening.


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## ester (18 January 2017)

Any set up which responds to any genuine query about the set up/what has happened to a specific animal/group of rescued animals (as opposed to ranty witch hunting type) is immediately deleted and blocked I think says a lot. She also seems to have gotten through a lot of 'fans' that then are blocked because they query something.

The saga of hero the pony was terrible  and because of the above behaviour I fear the top of the iceburg because although some animals will end up with great people like I suspect you are Cortez the checks don't seem to be there/cannot be there for the volume they are dealing with.

I know why you say witch hunt but the other side seems so evangelical/can do no wrong which isn't right either.


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## AloneInTheDark (18 January 2017)

I don't know how many other rescues are out there but ask yourself how many of them have these types of stories like hero hanging over their heads. There will always be 1 or 2 cases that slip through but there are so many with AHAR. What makes them so different to everyone else that they get "targeted". As they say there is no smoke without a fire


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## ycbm (18 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			I don't think purchasing animals (not just horses) from the meat man or at fairs is a good idea either and just serves to perpetuate the cycle of overbreeding and neglect. I have a dog from AHAR, I collected him before xmas, I paid the fee for Sammy's castration & innoculations directly to the vet practise. A lot of the more lurid allegations are unlikely, and certainly when I was there the place was  clean, organised and open - actually better than some of the other rescues I've seen. I saw some things that were not what I would have done, and it was full up, but there was nothing that would have me contacting the authorities. I have no doubt that Suzanne Gibbons is not easy to get along with, she's obviously totally immersed in the whole animal rescue experience - passionate people are often a little nuts, but it makes me uncomfortable when things progress to a witch hunt, which I feel is happening.
		
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Bit more than a witch hunt when half a million pounds is missing from the accounts and the purchasing of puppies and horses is systemic, though. I don't believe the stories about them starving dogs to raise pity money from their photos, but they do seem to need investigating.

I'm glad your dog got a great new home, are there any cute photos please ?


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## stormox (18 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			makes me uncomfortable when things progress to a witch hunt, which I feel is happening.
		
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I dont think this is a 'witch hunt', more of a 'truth hunt'. The charitys trustees and Suzanne Gibbons are responsible for a LOT of money - 16k to 32k a month in donations alone, then there are the grants etc. A lot of this money comes from the public and therefore the public have a right to know how it is spent.
I think it entirely right that the charities regulator ensures that funds are correctly accounted for, and being spent wisely - and if there is any reason to think the accounts are in anyway suspect it should investigate thoroughly.


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## Cortez (18 January 2017)

Yes, it's a lot of money, yes their accounting is rubbish, but I have heard people making accusations of impropriety as if someone was making a fortune out of "selling" animals. An operation of this size will need an large amount of money to run, so the amounts going "missing" are entirely feasable, it's the accountability that needs to be addressed. I believe that the department getting involved and forcing them to sort out the organisation is entirely a good thing. It appears that allowing one person to run AHAR like a personal fiefdom is the problem, and now that seems to be on the road to being remedied. If nothing else they will have some input and help via the oversight of the department. They need to scale back, become more professional and address the deficiencies, perhaps then the emotive reactions - on both sides - will die down.


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## paddi22 (18 January 2017)

i don't think anyone demanding transparency for public money is doing a 'witch hunt'. i run a company and if i was dealing with public money then it would be no bother to me at any stage to provide audited accounts and folders of receipts and statements.  You don't get to hide stuff if people are trusting you with their money in good faith. In fact if my company was under scrutiny like her you'd actually be PUSHING to prove your innocence.


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## Cortez (18 January 2017)

The present investigation is not what I was referring to. Cute picture of Samwell as requested:


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## stormox (18 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			The present investigation is not what I was referring to.
		
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To be fair though, the OP referred to the present investigation, and the RTE progamme.


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## ycbm (18 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			The present investigation is not what I was referring to. Cute picture of Samwell as requested:






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Oh my, he's got a character bigger than a house, hasn't he?  Border and Staffie somewhere in there?


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## Cortez (18 January 2017)

Oh no, he's tiny - only 11ins; a Pomeranian Jack Russell cross we think. He's the most devoted little man, sitting on my lap right now (and he does actually have four legs BTW).


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## ycbm (18 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Oh no, he's tiny - only 11ins; a Pomeranian Jack Russell cross we think. He's the most devoted little man, sitting on my lap right now (and he does actually have four legs BTW).
		
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I was going to guess jrt,  but I thought he was bigger. Huge character though, from that photo.   Why was he homeless, do you know?  I wouldn't mind one like him.


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## Cortez (18 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			I was going to guess jrt,  but I thought he was bigger. Huge character though, from that photo.   Why was he homeless, do you know?  I wouldn't mind one like him.
		
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He's three years old, belonged to a family, more specifically a little boy who is autistic. The little boy was provided with a service dog, and the protocol is that there can be no other dogs in the family, so poor Sammy had to be rehomed. Took him a long time to settle here - missing his boy I think, but now he is a very happy lad and obsessed with his football  We love him.


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## Dobiegirl (18 January 2017)

Cute dog Cortez he looks a sweetie, how many times did you actually go to Ahar ?


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## Cortez (18 January 2017)

Twice, a year apart.


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## ycbm (18 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			He's three years old, belonged to a family, more specifically a little boy who is autistic. The little boy was provided with a service dog, and the protocol is that there can be no other dogs in the family, so poor Sammy had to be rehomed. Took him a long time to settle here - missing his boy I think, but now he is a very happy lad and obsessed with his football  We love him.
		
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Well he looks pretty lovable to me!


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## Dobiegirl (18 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Twice, a year apart.
		
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As KM said on the Joe Duffy radio show yesterday people who go once or twice dont see a problem its only when you go on a regular basis you see animals not progressing.

If you follow Ahar regularly you will be familiar with an English admin who was voracious in her support of Ahar, she visited them once or twice but after her 3rd visit she cut all ties with Ahar. Its been disclosed today on the exposed page that after her 3rd visit she saw all was not well, she does not want to co-operate with the exposed page but has stated she is reporting separately. Make of that what you want but it points at the continued neglect a lot of animals suffer, of course some of them  get to have good homes like yours but an awful lot get passed on again, especially the horses.

Incidentally another admin  and big supporter left back in September and she is being given hell by Ahar, its all about intimidation to keep people silent, it really is horrendous.


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## WeeLassie (19 January 2017)

I totally agree that all accounts, donations (cash paypal and  everything) and  expenses (wages payouts for vets feed etc) absolutely everything should be made public - after all its the public who fund this place, I dont see AHAR ever holding fund-raisers like dog shows, open days  etc like other charities do.
I also think that this buying of horses and dogs from fairs- many of which aren't being cruelly treated, or uncared for, must stop.  Excuses given for buying - and these are just a few- 'this foal was crying for his mother' (foal 6 months), these cob foals had no mother with them (well grown foals in October) - does she not understand foals have to be separated from their mums and always whinny a bit at weaning? Also buying mothers to re-unite them with their foals is NOT a reason to buy them.
Dogs bought purely because they are being led on a 'blue rope',  litters of fat, healthy pups bought, this is not rescuing, this is hoarding, especially as in her own FB page words 'the centre is overflowing at the seams' 'we cant afford the vetwork' 'we  cant pay our feed merchant'.
If AHAR is to continue, the animalls she takes in MUST be monitored properly.


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## Dobiegirl (19 January 2017)

This is what someone has written on the exposed page and I know he made an affidavit and it was given to the DAFM and Guarda and nothing came of it.                                                                                                                                                 














I used to work In ahar I started the time of the rescue of the cork horses I was there a few weeks and did t see much of suzzane but after a couple of months there I got closer to suzzane and ended up In a relationship with her it was from then I really say what was going on the lies that were told the and how horribly people and animals were treated
ANIMALS 
I seen suzzane beat dogs because they wouldn't stand properly for pictures for Ber to tell more lies about I seen horses and dogs dying there and being buried there I remember the morning the department of agri were coming and the gates had to be locked so the dead dogs in the plastic bags on top of the loft and out the back in the muck heap could be gathered up and hidden I saw horses with strangles go to new homes the trailer load of dead ponies in the trailer for 2 days In the farm and them park down at the house for 10 days and when wards came to collect them they were rotting badly I seen the dogs in crates for weeks not getting out I was there when the donkeys were kept in the back of the lorry until five of the six were dead I saw suzzanes dogs at the house locked in a porch all day I saw more in a dark shed for days and the fox left for weeks in the outside toilet and so much more
Volunteers 
Always bullying
I witnessed her make a man cry shouting at him one day calling little cbildren leeches for following her around would not talk to them or give Instructions it was frightening so I had enough and gave my notice of 2 weeks I was owed wages when I was leaving but was assured I would get them in a week so you all no where this is going I still didn't get them after going. Through the courts and winning my case suzzane didn't even turn up that's what I say and lots more


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## rascal (19 January 2017)

Dobiegirl said:



			This is what someone has written on the exposed page and I know he made an affidavit and it was given to the DAFM and Guarda and nothing came of it.                                                                                                                                                 














I used to work In ahar I started the time of the rescue of the cork horses I was there a few weeks and did t see much of suzzane but after a couple of months there I got closer to suzzane and ended up In a relationship with her it was from then I really say what was going on the lies that were told the and how horribly people and animals were treated
ANIMALS 
I seen suzzane beat dogs because they wouldn't stand properly for pictures for Ber to tell more lies about I seen horses and dogs dying there and being buried there I remember the morning the department of agri were coming and the gates had to be locked so the dead dogs in the plastic bags on top of the loft and out the back in the muck heap could be gathered up and hidden I saw horses with strangles go to new homes the trailer load of dead ponies in the trailer for 2 days In the farm and them park down at the house for 10 days and when wards came to collect them they were rotting badly I seen the dogs in crates for weeks not getting out I was there when the donkeys were kept in the back of the lorry until five of the six were dead I saw suzzanes dogs at the house locked in a porch all day I saw more in a dark shed for days and the fox left for weeks in the outside toilet and so much more
Volunteers 
Always bullying
I witnessed her make a man cry shouting at him one day calling little cbildren leeches for following her around would not talk to them or give Instructions it was frightening so I had enough and gave my notice of 2 weeks I was owed wages when I was leaving but was assured I would get them in a week so you all no where this is going I still didn't get them after going. Through the courts and winning my case suzzane didn't even turn up that's what I say and lots more
		
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If this is true, then this place desperately needs some proper management. 
They need to stop buying healthy animals for no good reason.  There seem to be very few, real rescues. They also need to stop taking on animals they can not afford to keep.  Nightmare.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (19 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Bit more than a witch hunt *when half a million pounds is missing from the accounts* and the purchasing of puppies and horses is systemic, though. I don't believe the stories about them starving dogs to raise pity money from their photos, but they do seem to need investigating.

I'm glad your dog got a great new home, are there any cute photos please ?
		
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Regarding the bit in bold, why are you suggesting this when not even the RTE investigation claimed it.








http://www.thejournal.ie/animal-charity-threatened-with-prosecution-3190329-Jan2017/

Are you lying or are RTE?


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## Cecile (19 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			The present investigation is not what I was referring to. Cute picture of Samwell as requested:

I have no idea about AHAR, never heard of them.......... but that picture of Samwell is just gorgeous and I keep logging on to have another look
and he just gets better every time 

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## ycbm (19 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Regarding the bit in bold, why are you suggesting this when not even the RTE investigation claimed it.








http://www.thejournal.ie/animal-charity-threatened-with-prosecution-3190329-Jan2017/

Are you lying or are RTE?
		
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Substitute the words 'unaccounted for' for 'missing' if it makes you feel more comfortable. Of course RTE cannot, before there is an investigation, accuse them of stealing.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (19 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Substitute the words 'unaccounted for' for 'missing' if it makes you feel more comfortable. Of course RTE cannot, before there is an investigation, accuse them of stealing.
		
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No indication of misappropriation suggests to me that no money was actually found to be missing, in other words that it could all be accounted for.

There has been an investigation into the accounts by the CRA who also don't appear to have found any misappropriation of funds, if they had do you seriously think that ahar would have been given 40 days to sort their books out.  

Yet here you are basically claiming fraud without a shred of evidence to back yourself up.


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## ycbm (19 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			No indication of misappropriation suggests to me that no money was actually found to be missing, in other words that it could all be accounted for.

There has been an investigation into the accounts by the CRA who also don't appear to have found any misappropriation of funds, if they had do you seriously think that ahar would have been given 40 days to sort their books out.  

Yet here you are basically claiming fraud without a shred of evidence to back yourself up.
		
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There is a substantial amount of money unaccounted for. That is why they have been told to get an accountant to account for where the money has gone. Do you have a connection to AHAR?  Why are you picking on my posts when a TV program has said the same as I am and so have others on this forum?


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## Dave's Mam (19 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			There is a substantial amount of money unaccounted for. That is why they have been told to get an accountant to account for where the money has gone. Do you have a connection to AHAR?  Why are you picking on my posts when a TV program has said the same as I am and so have others on this forum?
		
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I am sure Chocolate Moonbeam spoke in a manner rather "Pro AHAR" in a previous thread.  Apologies if I am incorrect.


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## paddi22 (19 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			No indication of misappropriation suggests to me that no money was actually found to be missing, in other words that it could all be accounted for.

There has been an investigation into the accounts by the CRA who also don't appear to have found any misappropriation of funds, if they had do you seriously think that ahar would have been given 40 days to sort their books out.  

Yet here you are basically claiming fraud without a shred of evidence to back yourself up.
		
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When charities accept donations from the trusting public then the onus is on them to prove and show where every single cent goes. This isn't the case with with AHAR. You can't just go and dip in and out and not keep track of things. It's not good enough. There's no excuse


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## paddi22 (19 January 2017)

edited


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## LD&S (19 January 2017)

Some charities pay staff, nothing wrong with that but if the charity repeatedly say it is wholly staffed by volunteers but it is paying staff, by default I would say money isn't properly accounted for as there would be no record of salaries.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (19 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			There is a substantial amount of money unaccounted for. That is why they have been told to get an accountant to account for where the money has gone. Do you have a connection to AHAR?  Why are you picking on my posts when a TV program has said the same as I am and so have others on this forum?
		
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This is a copy paste of the sanction imposed.  Nowhere does it state an accountant has to be brought in to account for where the money has gone.

The notice, which was accepted by the organisation on the 16th January 2017, requires AHAR to:

Assign the responsibility of keeping proper books of account to a person(s) with the appropriate skills and experience.

Introduce periodic financial reporting setting out the income and expenditure (including the nature of that income and expenditure) and the assets and liabilities of the charity.

Ensure all financial reports are scrutinised by the charity trustees under a standing agenda item &#8211; &#8216;financial status of the charity&#8217; during regular management committee meetings.

http://charitiesregulator.ie/en/CRA/Pages/WP17000001


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## paddi22 (19 January 2017)

In my company the person we 'Assign the responsibility of keeping proper books of account to a person(s) with the appropriate skills and experience' is an actual accountant or book keeper. it's like that with most businesses that are above board.

There is honestly so much dodgy stuff that could be gone into in these ahar thread


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## LD&S (19 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			This is a copy paste of the sanction imposed.  Nowhere does it state an accountant has to be brought in to account for where the money has gone.

The notice, which was accepted by the organisation on the 16th January 2017, requires AHAR to:

Assign the responsibility of keeping proper books of account to a person(s) with the appropriate skills and experience.

Introduce periodic financial reporting setting out the income and expenditure (including the nature of that income and expenditure) and the assets and liabilities of the charity.

Ensure all financial reports are scrutinised by the charity trustees under a standing agenda item &#8211; &#8216;financial status of the charity&#8217; during regular management committee meetings.

http://charitiesregulator.ie/en/CRA/Pages/WP17000001

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Assign the responsibility of keeping proper books of account to a person(s) with the appropriate skills and experience.

I think you'll find this means an accountant, it doesn't state at what level it may not mean someone who has completed ACCA or similar but to keep books of accounts by person(s) with the appropriate skills and experience does not mean some one that can add a few figures and use excel it means someone with training in accountancy.
To be fair if only 1% of what AHAR are accused of turns out to be true then they should no longer be allowed to function as a charity especially one that receives public money.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (19 January 2017)

paddi22 said:



			In my company the person we 'Assign the responsibility of keeping proper books of account to a person(s) with the appropriate skills and experience' is an actual accountant or book keeper. it's like that with most businesses that are above board.

There is honestly so much dodgy stuff that could be gone into in these ahar thread
		
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I'm well aware of that, that is not my issue.

My issue is with people making accusations that haven't been made either by the CRA or by the RTE investigation.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (19 January 2017)

LD&S said:



			Assign the responsibility of keeping proper books of account to a person(s) with the appropriate skills and experience.

I think you'll find this means an accountant, it doesn't state at what level it may not mean someone who has completed ACCA or similar but to keep books of accounts by person(s) with the appropriate skills and experience does not mean some one that can add a few figures and use excel it means someone with training in accountancy.
To be fair if only 1% of what AHAR are accused of turns out to be true then they should no longer be allowed to function as a charity especially one that receives public money.
		
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Yes thank you, I know what it means.  It also tends to suggest that the previous treasurers left a lot to be desired in their roles.

What it does not mean though is that an accountant must be brought in to find almost half a million pounds that someone has imagined has gone missing.

If half a million pounds was missing, what action do you think the CRA would have taken?


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## LD&S (19 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I'm well aware of that, that is not my issue.

My issue is with people making accusations that haven't been made either by the CRA or by the RTE investigation.
		
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 I think I shall bow out of any discussion with you as you are obviously a supporter who seems unable to look impartially at the evidence that has been building for quite some time.


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## ester (19 January 2017)

I don't think you have accurately identified any such accusations though have you?

How can you say that you are aware of that, that is not your issue when you just said that it didn't say they had to get an accountant??


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## ycbm (19 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			This is a copy paste of the sanction imposed.  Nowhere does it state an accountant has to be brought in to account for where the money has gone.

The notice, which was accepted by the organisation on the 16th January 2017, requires AHAR to:

Assign the responsibility of keeping proper books of account to a person(s) with the appropriate skills and experience.

Introduce periodic financial reporting setting out the income and expenditure (including the nature of that income and expenditure) and the assets and liabilities of the charity.

Ensure all financial reports are scrutinised by the charity trustees under a standing agenda item  financial status of the charity during regular management committee meetings.

http://charitiesregulator.ie/en/CRA/Pages/WP17000001

Click to expand...




Do you think it's NORMAL for any organisation to be given this as a legal instruction?

There is a very substantial amount of money going through the organisation, the spending of which is unaccounted for. They have been told to account for it, now and on an ongoing basis.

The fact that they have to be instructed to do this is proof that the money is currently unaccounted for.

How much do you actually understand about corporate governance?

You defended the indefensible on another thread last year, you do seem to have some sort of connection?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (19 January 2017)

ester said:



			I don't think you have accurately identified any such accusations though have you?

How can you say that you are aware of that, that is not your issue when you just said that it didn't say they had to get an accountant??
		
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What.  Are you suggesting that someone claiming half a million in funds is missing is not an accusation of something?


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## ester (19 January 2017)

cash withdrawls of 1 million, 
previous treasurer reckoned she only got half the receipts
half a million unaccounted for, not sure why the maths is tricky?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (19 January 2017)

ester said:



			cash withdrawls of 1 million, 
previous treasurer reckoned she only got half the receipts
half a million unaccounted for, not sure why the maths is tricky?
		
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Clearly you didn't read it.

It stated cash withdrawals and donations of one million euros over two years


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## ester (19 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			There is a substantial amount of money unaccounted for. *That is why they have been told to get an accountant to account for where the money has gone*. Do you have a connection to AHAR?  Why are you picking on my posts when a TV program has said the same as I am and so have others on this forum?
		
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Chocolate moonbeam said:



			This is a copy paste of the sanction imposed.  *Nowhere does it state an accountant has to be brought in to account for where the money has gone.*

The notice, which was accepted by the organisation on the 16th January 2017, requires AHAR to:

Assign the responsibility of keeping proper books of account to a person(s) *with the appropriate skills and experience*.

Introduce periodic financial reporting setting out the income and expenditure (including the nature of that income and expenditure) and the assets and liabilities of the charity.

Ensure all financial reports are scrutinised by the charity trustees under a standing agenda item &#8211; &#8216;financial status of the charity&#8217; during regular management committee meetings.

http://charitiesregulator.ie/en/CRA/Pages/WP17000001

Click to expand...




Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I*'m well aware of that, that is not my issue.*

My issue is with people making accusations that haven't been made either by the CRA or by the RTE investigation.
		
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It is your issue, it isn't your issue, iirc you kept changing your mind about such things on the Hero thread too...


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## ycbm (19 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			What.  Are you suggesting that someone claiming half a million in funds is missing is not an accusation of something?
		
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There are about five hundred thousand pounds which have been spent where there is absolutely no record of where it has gone. I personally call that missing. The charity commission and RTE call it unaccounted for. It's the same thing. Do you think it's ok to take thirty grand a month of the public and be unable to explain where that's gone over several years?

I also note that they have been told to account for their assets, so there is a very large asset in the facilities where it is not accounted for in the books. So who owns it?

This standard of financial conduct is completely unacceptable.  THAT is my accusation.


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## ester (19 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Clearly you didn't read it.

It stated cash withdrawals and donations of one million euros over two years
		
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It is past my bedtime 
Which is all accounted for of course..... 
TBH I don't care how much it is, it should all be accounted for whether it a tenner or half a million... that is part of being a responsible, well functioning charity.


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## paddi22 (19 January 2017)

edi


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## Chocolate moonbeam (19 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			There are hundreds of thousands of pounds which have been spent where there is absolutely no record of where it has gone. I personally call that missing. The charity commission and RTE call it unaccounted for. It's the same thing. Do you think it's ok to take thirty grand a month of the public and be unable to explain where that's gone over several years?

I also note that they have been told to account for their assets, so there is a very large asset in the facilities where it is not accounted for in the books. So who owns it?

This standard of financial conduct is completely unacceptable.  THAT is my accusation.
		
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Oh my god, are you reading something different to me.

"Introduce periodic financial reporting setting out the income and expenditure (including the nature of that income and expenditure) and the assets and liabilities of the charity".

That is not the same as saying these assets are unaccounted for.


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## ester (19 January 2017)

If all items were properly accounted for would they have been placed under such measures? No? ergo not everything is accounted for surely?


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## paddi22 (19 January 2017)

ehh it actually is implying that... on this planet (maybe it doesn't happen on yours, im not sure) but the fact that they are being told to set out income and expenditure shows that this hasn't been the case thus far.
If the receipts and statements aren't there (which they are proven to not be) then the assets ARE unaccounted for

If everything was above board the charity regulator would have looked and gone 'good job, go on as you are'. They didn't.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (19 January 2017)

ester said:



			If all items were properly accounted for would they have been placed under such measures? No? ergo not everything is accounted for surely?
		
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Are you suggesting the CRA didn't audit the ahar books properly.

They have been sanctioned to keep proper books of account not accused of fraud.


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## ester (19 January 2017)

You read stuff really strangely sometimes.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (19 January 2017)

ester said:



			You read stuff really strangely sometimes.
		
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I'm reading this, not quite sure what you are reading.

Assign the responsibility of keeping proper books of account to a person(s) with the appropriate skills and experience.

Introduce periodic financial reporting setting out the income and expenditure (including the nature of that income and expenditure) and the assets and liabilities of the charity.

Ensure all financial reports are scrutinised by the charity trustees under a standing agenda item &#8211; &#8216;financial status of the charity&#8217; during regular management committee meetings.


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## ester (19 January 2017)

I meant my post, which made no such suggestion that you seem to think it did...


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## Chocolate moonbeam (19 January 2017)

ester said:



			I meant my post, which made no such suggestion that you seem to think it did...
		
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Your post seems to suggest the CRA found money missing, the CRA don't seem to have stated this, only that they need to bring in someone with the appropriate skills and experience to do the books (what does that say about previous treasurers) hence my belief that you must think the CRA didn't do a proper audit.


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## paddi22 (19 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Are you suggesting the CRA didn't audit the ahar books properly.

They have been sanctioned to keep proper books of account not accused of fraud.
		
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actually they HAVE been accused of an offence and served notice. if they dont comply then

"Failure to comply with this order will result the Charities Regulator bringing a prosecution against AHAR and may take steps to temporarily removing them from the Register of Charities, until such a time that we are satisfied that they meet their legal requirements."

You have a bizarre way of cherry picking what points you actually pull out of text at times

they are at risk of prosectution when their stuff is checked again, they are being given time to get their act together


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## Chocolate moonbeam (19 January 2017)

paddi22 said:



			actually they HAVE been accused of an offence and served notice. if they dont comply then

"Failure to comply with this order will result the Charities Regulator bringing a prosecution against AHAR and may take steps to temporarily removing them from the Register of Charities, until such a time that we are satisfied that they meet their legal requirements."

You have a bizarre way of cherry picking what points you actually pull out of text at times

they are at risk of prosectution when their stuff is checked again, they are being given time to get their act together
		
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They have been accused of not keeping proper books of account in accordance with the CRA regulations, they have not been accused of misappropriating funds.


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## ester (19 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Your post seems to suggest the CRA found money missing, the CRA don't seem to have stated this, only that they need to bring in someone with the appropriate skills and experience to do the books (what does that say about previous treasurers) hence my belief that you must think the CRA didn't do a proper audit.
		
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your belief, not my suggestion at all. 

If the books were fine they wouldn't have been told they have to bring someone qualified in, as there would be nothing for them to do. and yes, as paddi says they have been served notice regarding not keeping proper accounts. 

If someone has suggested misappropriation of funds I missed it, they have suggested not everything is accounted for, not that it has been funnelled somewhere else.


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## Irish gal (19 January 2017)

I'm delighted they are finally coming under proper scrutiny and it's probably largely because there have been a spate of scandals here involving similar lax - non existent - accounting systems in charities.

The scandal of last summer was suicide prevention charity Console. A massive national charity and another personal fiefdom run by a charismatic founder. Millions in yearly donations and his own family living off it through credit cards, five star hotels, even 20,000 spent on an eventer - out of charity funds!

It was only when he was getting a People of the Year award that people at home watching on TV recognised him from a previous scam he ran posing as another person!

I'm sorry but buying healthy dogs and horses at fairs - early in the day - is not animal rescue. I know a trotting fellow from a criminal family that she wanted to give horses to. They would have met one of two ends. Impounded and pts or brutally killed as part of the feud his family is involved in. 

I hope ahar becomes at the very least tightly regulated and I'll bet if it does she'll throw in the towel. im just astounded they got a million in donations over two years. That definitely needs regulating and accounting for. All those animals are at her mercy. Reading the post where it was copy and pasted about the dead donkeys, dead dogs - it's horrific.


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## paddi22 (19 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Your post seems to suggest the CRA found money missing, the CRA don't seem to have stated this, only that they need to bring in someone with the appropriate skills and experience to do the books (what does that say about previous treasurers) hence my belief that you must think the CRA didn't do a proper audit.
		
Click to expand...

you seem very quick to blame the treasurer, and not, instead,  the person who took the money out of atms and spent it without receipts. Who would have known everything needs a paper trail if its to be above board. The same person who is above the treasurer in position and who didn't notice the odd million missing lol!  I think the treasurer didn't do their job, but there was someone above them doing a worse job. And its ****** to pass the blam down the line when it lies at the top.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (19 January 2017)

ester said:



			your belief, not my suggestion at all. 

If the books were fine they wouldn't have been told they have to bring someone qualified in, as there would be nothing for them to do. and yes, as paddi says they have been served notice regarding not keeping proper accounts. 

If someone has suggested misappropriation of funds I missed it, they have suggested not everything is accounted for, not that it has been funnelled somewhere else.
		
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You really don't think that someone suggesting half a million euro is missing is not suggesting it has been funnelled somewhere else?

Come on, you can read can't you.  There have been accusations of fraud, theft, missing monies all over the net since these sanctions were imposed.


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## paddi22 (19 January 2017)

nice change of subject there...


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## paddi22 (19 January 2017)

sometimes i reads real well


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## Chocolate moonbeam (19 January 2017)

paddi22 said:



			you seem very quick to blame the treasurer, and not, instead,  the person who took the money out of atms and spent it without receipts. Who would have known everything needs a paper trail if its to be above board. The same person who is above the treasurer in position and who didn't notice the odd million missing lol!  I think the treasurer didn't do their job, but there was someone above them doing a worse job. And its ****** to pass the blam down the line when it lies at the top.
		
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I would suggest the buck stops with the treasurer where the books are concerned.


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## ycbm (19 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Oh my god, are you reading something different to me.

"Introduce periodic financial reporting setting out the income and expenditure (including the nature of that income and expenditure) and the assets and liabilities of the charity".

That is not the same as saying these assets are unaccounted for.
		
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Ummm, yes, actually, it is.


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## paddi22 (19 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I would suggest the buck stops with the treasurer where the books are concerned.
		
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No. In any committee it is the chairperson who is in charge of co-ordinating the volunteers and monitoring everyone does their job. You can't just pass blame down the chain, the buck stops with the chairperson. The person withdrawing cash willy nilly from atms would have been completely aware of the fact that she needed to keep receipts.  Financial statements in our club are passed by the entire committee at our annual agm and examined. That should have happened in AHAR and the fact it didn't is down to lax governance at the top.

A charity receiving that much cash needs to be professional, there is NO excuse. The person at the top is in charge of this.


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## Dave's Mam (19 January 2017)

paddi22 said:



			ehh it actually is implying that... on this planet (maybe it doesn't happen on yours, im not sure) but the fact that they are being told to set out income and expenditure shows that this hasn't been the case thus far.
If the receipts and statements aren't there (which they are proven to not be) then the assets ARE unaccounted for

If everything was above board the charity regulator would have looked and gone 'good job, go on as you are'. They didn't.
		
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Exactly.


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## Dave's Mam (19 January 2017)

Again, I will point out that the poster has previously been very pro AHAR.  Connection?


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## LD&S (20 January 2017)

Dave's Mam said:



			Again, I will point out that the poster has previously been very pro AHAR.  Connection?
		
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Absolutely, does appear that this may be the reason the dubious practises have gone on so long if they are representative of the AHAR supporters.

The really sad part of all this is other, more transparent charities, will probably be affected as a result which will ultimately mean more animals will suffer because of the selfish attitude of one person.


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## hairycob (20 January 2017)

Speaking as a Chartered Accountant with extensive audit experience that wording basically means that the books are in such a complete mess that no one can tell what going on. In my experience that is rarely "accidental". Obviously I have no direct knowledge of this one but I would be pushing my concerns right up to the most senior partner as the only times I came across this there was fraud going on. Of course it could be one of the rare cases of complete incompetence but the red flags are waving and the alarm bells are ringing loud.


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## stormox (20 January 2017)

Being as the ONLY posts 'chocolate moonbeam' has ever written on HHO have been on threads  about AHAR, defending them,  I would like to know the connection. Be honest chocolate moonbeam- do you have a connection with AHAR or their manager?
Its easy to hide anonymously behind a name.......


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## ozpoz (20 January 2017)

My goodness, what is wrong with hearing from both sides? 
it is a forum...


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## June08 (20 January 2017)

Actually since this ridiculous documentary aired, hundreds of people have emailed RTE with our success stories. I have personally seen hundreds of photos and stories of happy animals rescued by AHAR and adopted by people. I myself have adopted two horses over the last year. Both arrived healthy. I think it's easy to spread hate without any facts. I've been to the horse fairs in Ireland and they are horrendous, I would take them all off those men if I could.


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## ester (20 January 2017)

Of course there are success stories? It would be hard to be an organisation that big without any? Or to maintain it if there were none. That doesn't help take the suffering away from those who aren't success stories though does it?


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## robden (20 January 2017)

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1227299430684745&id=795034397244586


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## paddi22 (20 January 2017)

of course there are success stories, but that doesn't mean that the areas they are neglectful in shouldn't be examined.


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## paddi22 (20 January 2017)

June08 said:



			Actually since this ridiculous documentary aired.
		
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why is it a ridiculous documentary. every single thing it it was factual. they didn't make stuff up, it was all rpoven and backed up by the charity regulator giving them 40 days to try and provide supporting evidence to clear the charity. They are under a threat of prosecution.

so its not a 'ridiculous' documentary. its a factual account


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## stormox (20 January 2017)

June08 said:



			I've been to the horse fairs in Ireland and they are horrendous, I would take them all off those men if I could.
		
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Do you think horse fairs in Ireland are worse than those in UK? Appleby, Stow etc? I dont. and  I have been to fairs in both countries. In my experience,it is a particular ethnic group who cause problems at fairs, not the general public or the farmers most of whom take great pride in their animals.
And this ethnic group cause the trouble in both countries, and neither Gardai nor Police dare do anything about them.


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## robden (20 January 2017)

Even in Scotland &#128544;


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## paddi22 (20 January 2017)

June08 said:



			I've been to the horse fairs in Ireland and they are horrendous, I would take them all off those men if I could.
		
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they are absolutely no different to horse fairs in england, scotland etc. 

And it's people buying horses off 'people like that' that encourage them to go off and breed more. Every other charity in Ireland discourages buying dogs at fairs, apart from AHAR. Who actually make the situation WORSE.


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## laura_nash (20 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			They have been accused of not keeping proper books of account in accordance with the CRA regulations, they have not been accused of misappropriating funds.
		
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If the books have not been kept properly then there is no way of knowing if funds have been misappropriated or not.  I don't think anyone is suggesting the board / founder have a secret bank account with millions in it.  What they are suggesting is that maybe someone (for example) stopped for fish and chips and a packet of fags on the way home from buying horse feed and paid with that from charity money.  That is still fraud / stealing charity money and impossible to prove either way when things are being run so slapdash and poorly.  Over years that kind of minor fraud can add up to substantial sums.


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## laura_nash (20 January 2017)

June08 said:



			Actually since this ridiculous documentary aired, hundreds of people have emailed RTE with *our* success stories. I have personally seen hundreds of photos and stories of happy animals rescued by AHAR and adopted by people. *I myself have adopted two horses over the last year*. Both arrived healthy. I think it's easy to spread hate without any facts. I've been to the horse fairs in Ireland and they are horrendous, I would take them all off those men if I could.
		
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I'm confused, are you someone who has adopted from the charity or are you associated with them / working for them (or both)?


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## June08 (20 January 2017)

If you took the time to read my post, I clearly state that I have adopted. Maybe your eyes are so blinded by hate you couldn't read it. I have never worked or even know anyone connected to AHAR but I do know lots of people that have adopted. As far as horse fairs go apart from Appleby where in England do you see grown men riding minis down the street and driving goals with shoes on ??? I think your all in some out dated world. The last time fairs in Ireland were full of proud farmers was in the 1980's. I think you all need to put your money where your mouths are and set up your own charity to save these animals .


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## paddi22 (20 January 2017)

eh you could probably tone down the emotion of your descriptions a bit to bring it back to reality. I don't think anyone here is blinded by hate of AHAR. I can't think of any life situation where i would be blinded by hate, especially about a random charity! 

I don't understand where you get your notion of quaint irish fairs in the 80's being full of 'proud farmers'. I was there at irish fairs in the 80's and they haven't changed a huge amount except in the increase of numbers. And they do ride minis at english fairs, theres always the same percentage of cruelty world wide i think,

And you don't actually have a right to be judgy about anyone. Last summeri had 6 rescue horses on the go, some are rehomed now. I also have 2 rescue dogs, 2 rescue cats and 11 rescue chickens. so I think i do my bit thanks very much. As do many other people here. 

And I wouldn't set up a charity as i don't think it would be fair on the animals to ask for money from other people and over stock myself, causing a decrease in the animals quality of life. I take in what i can, and what i can afford. And instead i donate to PROPER charities who are fully transparent, non emotive in their language and generally above board. You know, the ones the charity regulator isn't threatening with judgements.,


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## Ddraig_wen (20 January 2017)

June08 said:



			Actually since this ridiculous documentary aired, hundreds of people have emailed RTE with our success stories. I have personally seen hundreds of photos and stories of happy animals rescued by AHAR and adopted by people. I myself have adopted two horses over the last year. Both arrived healthy. I think it's easy to spread hate without any facts. I've been to the horse fairs in Ireland and they are horrendous, I would take them all off those men if I could.
		
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June08 said:



			If you took the time to read my post, I clearly state that I have adopted. Maybe your eyes are so blinded by hate you couldn't read it. I have never worked or even know anyone connected to AHAR but I do know lots of people that have adopted. As far as horse fairs go apart from Appleby where in England do you see grown men riding minis down the street and driving goals with shoes on ??? I think your all in some out dated world. The last time fairs in Ireland were full of proud farmers was in the 1980's. I think you all need to put your money where your mouths are and set up your own charity to save these animals .
		
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Actually the sentence 'our success stories'  makes it sound like you are part of the charity or have a connection to it. 
Did you mean someone emailed in your personal success stories?  or AHARs success stories?

No I'm not blinded by hate. I used to think they were ok till a friend received the wrong horses from them. I had dealings with them and they got very twitchy when I asked about procedures in relation to both large and small animals and finally stopped replying. 
There are good stories yes but there are lots of bad. The bad aren't minor things either and the amount of photographic evidence isn't ignorable.


As for setting up our own charities, we have had 20 odd equines come through ours in the last year or so. Feral, undernourished, two cases the rspca ignored. All have been handled, sorted and homed locally. None bought from fairs and all rehomed with contract and no money taken but anyway....


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## stormox (20 January 2017)

June08 said:



			far as horse fairs go apart from Appleby where in England do you see grown men riding minis down the street and driving goals with shoes on ???
		
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Have you ever been to Llandybyther? Beeston? Derby? Barnet? Watton? Stow? Plenty of places. But what Im saying is there is nothing wrong with fairs- sure horses stand around tied to lorries but they do that at shows and gymkhanas!
 The badness is with a certain group of people, who intimidate police and gardai and follow their own rules. (go to any gathering or site of a certain group of people and there will be foals and yearlings in sulkies. UK and Ireland.) Banning fairs will not stop these types. But rescues buying from these people will encourage the problem of overbreeding/breeding rubbish wherever they  buy.
I do not believe all these so-called 'poor creatures rescued (bought) from fairs' are all from where AHAR say they  come from. I was at several fairs -Killorglin and Newmarket to give you a couple  of names. There were no dogs at Killorglin, and one well cared for collie pup at Newmarket. But still AHAR managed to find plenty to 'rescue and bring back to safety'.


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## View (20 January 2017)

June08 said:



			Actually since this ridiculous documentary aired, hundreds of people have emailed RTE with *our *success stories. I have personally seen hundreds of photos and stories of happy animals rescued by AHAR and adopted by people. I myself have adopted two horses over the last year. Both arrived healthy. I think it's easy to spread hate without any facts. I've been to the horse fairs in Ireland and they are horrendous, I would take them all off those men if I could.
		
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June08 said:



			If you took the time to read my post, I clearly state that I have adopted. Maybe your eyes are so blinded by hate you couldn't read it. I have never worked or even know anyone connected to AHAR but I do know lots of people that have adopted. As far as horse fairs go apart from Appleby where in England do you see grown men riding minis down the street and driving goals with shoes on ??? I think your all in some out dated world. The last time fairs in Ireland were full of proud farmers was in the 1980's. I think you all need to put your money where your mouths are and set up your own charity to save these animals .
		
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The use of the word that I have highlighted in your earlier post suggests that you feel part of this organisation.

Sadly, I have seen grown men riding minis, and cruelly whipping youngstock and literally driving them into the ground.  This happens all too regularly, not just around Appleby fair.

I do not live in some outdated world; I live in the here and now and the last horse we owned was rescued from physical abuse.

I was trying to stay out of a thread where emotions for some are running high, but the welfare of all animals is important - and an organisation that is defensive rather than transparent rings alarm bells for me.  Not an organisation I can support until transparency is there and the appropriate authorities are satisfied.

There are many well run rescues that I can support.


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## June08 (20 January 2017)

Wow we must have been at the same fairs as I lived in Ireland in the 1980'sand went to a lot of fairs, there were very different to how they are now, and that's not just my opinion but that of my family and friends in Ireland. I'll ask the same question again apart from Appleby where do you see the behaviour in mentioned in England? What Fairs? please tell me as I will go there this year and then I will be able agree with you if that happens .Oh if we are blowing our own trumpets, I adopted four horses last year and a baby mule, two pigs, three cats and a dog. I'm lucky enough to have the facilities and land to do that. And I will be adopting from AHAR this year again hopefully. Good luck with your animals.


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## paddi22 (20 January 2017)

i think someone listed a stream of examples of fairs above.

You seem to miss the point that people here are animal lovers and WANT animal charities to succeed and do well. I think most people would have started off by admiring ahar, until the kept seeing more and more examples of extreme neglect and mismanagement. And this IS mismanagement. Not just financial but also in animal care. 

For example, yesterday one of my rescue cobs was shipped out to germany. The charities it goes froms yard has to follow protocol to be on lockdown for three weeks, to make sure no illness travels with the horse. That means no farriers or staff who have been in other yeards or around animals can enter. Really strict pre travel rules, and tons of paperwork.  As a result they DONT ship out horses with strangles, or with the wrong passports, unlike ahar. 

You come on and defend, defend, defend ahar, with no sense of perspective. I would love for once if someone came on saying 'yes i did rehome a dog from them and it went well, but i do disagree with horses being shipped with strangles.

But with ahar its either 100% support or people are 'blinded by hate' And lifes not like that, there are grey areas where improvements in any charity can be made. And it's for the animals benefit for us all to make charities function to their highest level


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## Leo Walker (20 January 2017)

June08 said:



			I'll ask the same question again apart from Appleby where do you see the behaviour in mentioned in England? What Fairs? .
		
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Go for a little wander round NE England and you will see it day in day out.


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## June08 (20 January 2017)

I've got to go out on my yard and bring my horses in now, so this will be my last post. The two horses I got from AHAR arrived healthy and with passports. How can I judge it any other way ? I've never spoken to someone who rehomed a horse that had strangles but obviously would not be happy if my horses had arrived with it. Shipping to Germany  is a different matter than shipping between Ireland and the U.K. . I can only judge as I've found and as your experience is different you can only do the same.


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## Cortez (20 January 2017)

"I would love for once if someone came on saying 'yes i did rehome a dog from them and it went well, but i do disagree with horses being shipped with strangles."

Erm, I do believe I said almost precisely that several pages ago.......


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## paddi22 (20 January 2017)

oh i missed that, i must have been 'blinded by hate' lol! 

Nice to see someone with perspective about them so


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## WeeLassie (20 January 2017)

I think a lot of the trouble is AHAR are in a hurry to re-home animals so dont do proper assessments of them before they put them up for adoption. And probably the stranges wouldnt have been showing when they left AHAR as there is an incubation period. Also some horses can be shedders (carriers) that can infect other horses even though they themselves show no  symptoms. So unless horses are quarantined at AHAR and monitored, which it doesnt seem they are,  it would be easy for strangles, EHV etc to go un-noticed.
The same with dogs - for example there were some black and tan hound crosses shown in a cage at a fair on 13 Nov, and also at AHAR the same day sitting on straw for photos. The same dogs are on Allsorts page for re-homing  on 8th Dec. So in 25 days the dogs have travelled from fair to AHAR, been neutered,  vaccinated, wormed, rabies jab and passport and travelled to UK. - with all this upset, how can their temperament have been accurately assessed? And Im assuming dogs re-homed in ROI might only  be  at AHAR for a matter of days, as they dont have the rabies jab and mandatory 21 day wait. Not long to assess them at all IMHO.


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## June08 (20 January 2017)

There's no need to be so nasty. I said what I said because you had not read my post and assumed I worked for AHAR.


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## June08 (20 January 2017)

I automatically put any new horse in quarantine for a month, I did the same with the horses I received from AHAR. I think most horse owners would do the same.


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## ester (20 January 2017)

June08 said:



			There's no need to be so nasty. I said what I said because you had not read my post and assumed I worked for AHAR.
		
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It has been pointed out to you by a couple of posters why the meaning of your post was easily misread because of the wording you used. I haven't seen anyone be nasty to you?  you are the one suggesting people are blinded by hate!


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## Kaylum (20 January 2017)

Rescuing an equine the process goes quarantine, vet check and bloods taken so you know what your dealing with, medical attention if needed, castration, teeth done, farrier they may need to get their confidence with training to be touched etc. they don't just go to any home. They are owned by the rescue and chipped and passported as such. So if things go wrong at rehoming there is back up all the time. Full home check and then regular home checks after. Not just yeah we rescued this and it will cost you to rehome thanks goodbye. Anyone can do that it's called dealing.


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## ycbm (20 January 2017)

June08 said:



			I automatically put any new horse in quarantine for a month, I did the same with the horses I received from AHAR. I think most horse owners would do the same.
		
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I don't have any facility to put a horse in quarantine. I would have to put it in livery, if I could find one which would take it. Of the many people I know who have their horses at home, only one would be able to quarantine a new horse, and she doesn't. I've never heard of a private owner quarantining a new horse.

It may be normal in Ireland, though I doubt it. It's certainly not common in private homes in England.


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## Kaylum (20 January 2017)

All livery yards should insist a horse is quarantined and should have the facilities otherwise your playing with horses lives. Even a field away from the others so they can't touch.


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## June08 (20 January 2017)

I'm lucky enough to have a stable and field separate to my yard. Most of my friends do quarantine their new horses unless they have had a strangles test.


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## Dobiegirl (20 January 2017)

June08 said:



			Actually since this ridiculous documentary aired, hundreds of people have emailed RTE with our success stories.


It wasnt a ridiculous documentary, it was factual, how anyone can defend that poor 16 year old dog being neutered I dont know. 

Ive seen the video of the dog on Ahars page and its pretty obvious they are now blaming the adopter, the video shows the dog walking through the kitchen the day before the dog was pts, implying look the dog is fine why did she have him pts. After dying on the table whilst having his teeth done and being neutered  anyone with any modicum of sense would know that the dog was not strong. Im sure just because he looked fine one day doesnt mean he couldnt have relapsed the next, he was 16years old, a Collie who would be exceptionally old for that breed.
		
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## ycbm (20 January 2017)

June08 said:



			I'm lucky enough to have a stable and field separate to my yard. Most of my friends do quarantine their new horses unless they have had a strangles test.
		
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Exactly. You are lucky. This is not normal, and done in only a small percentage of commercial livery yards that I know of. I not prepared to pay several hundred to quarantine a rescue. When I was looking for one last Autumn, I did not, and would not, contact AHAR because I could not trust what might arrive.


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## MiniMilton (20 January 2017)

Did anyone ever find out what happened to Hero?


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## Dobiegirl (20 January 2017)

MiniMilton said:



			Did anyone ever find out what happened to Hero?
		
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No even though there was a huge fund raiser for her and she had treatment then it all went quiet. The exposed page found out she was on an old golf course, they went there took lots of photos and a video and she looked worse than when she first came into Ahars care. They notified the authorities but before they got there AHAR turned up and took her away(what a co-incidence)

Next she was shown having some treatment then nothing, no one but Ahar knows where she is or whether she is still alive and anyone that asks on their page is deleted and blocked, Im guessing its not good news as it would be plastered all over their facebook page as one of their successes.


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## Kaylum (20 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Exactly. You are lucky. This is not normal, and done in only a small percentage of commercial livery yards that I know of. I not prepared to pay several hundred to quarantine a rescue. When I was looking for one last Autumn, I did not, and would not, contact AHAR because I could not trust what might arrive.
		
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A rescue should already have been in quarantine from where they are rescued to and all health checks done and treated before moving anywhere surely.


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## Tiddlypom (20 January 2017)

Kaylum said:



			A rescue should already have been in quarantine from where they are rescued to and all health checks done and treated before moving anywhere surely.
		
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Yes. The sometimes much maligned RSPCA do this as a matter of course. Even animals returning from approved foster homes have to undergo a 3 week quarantine period before mixing with the rehomers. They are all vet, dentist, farrier, worming checked too.


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## ycbm (20 January 2017)

Kaylum said:



			A rescue should already have been in quarantine from where they are rescued to and all health checks done and treated before moving anywhere surely.
		
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Absolutely. And I applied to all the rescues who run that way. Sending horses out without quarantine first and expecting the many people at the rehoming end to do it instead is totally irresponsible.


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## June08 (20 January 2017)

I have my own equestrian property but before I owned it I was in livery and all the liveries ( or should I say decent liveries) had quarantine or else you run the risk of infecting all the horses on the yard.


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## June08 (20 January 2017)

People buy horses every day of the week and don't test them for strangles. Even with a five stage vetting it does not get tested for. So is every person that buys a horse irresponsible ? Most charity's out there pay their staff and unfortunately most medium/big  charity's pay their top staff big bucks it makes for very sad reading, £150 thousand  plus for one person with all the rest of the staff how much goes one the animals.


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## ester (20 January 2017)

Depends what source you are getting your horse from doesn't it? If it has been mingling with lots of others, who have been mingling with lots of others and likely had insufficient vet care the risk is much higher than if you are purchasing one worth a 5 stage vetting. 

I have yet to come across a livery yard decent or not that quarantines but it seems to depend on area, quite a lot in some areas are requiring testing instead these days.

Of course most charities pay staff, it is totally normal, they don't ever claim they don't?


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## Dobiegirl (20 January 2017)

So we are all agreed quarantine it vital not only for horses but dogs too so why doesnt Ahar do it.


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## June08 (20 January 2017)

That's ridiculous every horse I've ever bought has been worthy of a five stage vetting and has had it before buying, but they have still had to spend at least 3 weeks in quarantine once I bought them.they gave all com from reputable sources. Horses as you know generally come from busy yards and have been out on the show circuit . I have never yet, touch wood, had a horse with strangles or anything else but would never take the risk.


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## Dobiegirl (20 January 2017)

June whilst that is very interesting we are talking about AHAR, perhaps you should start your own thread and not derail this one.


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## June08 (20 January 2017)

Yawn good night to this entire thread. I've got better things to spend my time on. I can see from all your post history you all spend a lot of time on here, which I don't. Good luck to you all, get out there and save some horses.


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## ycbm (20 January 2017)

June08 said:



			Yawn good night to this entire thread. I've got better things to spend my time on. I can see from all your post history you all spend a lot of time on here, which I don't. Good luck to you all, get out there and save some horses.
		
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I think a lot of them should just be shot, to be frank. There are so many which are surplus to requirements.AHAR aren't saving any horses in terms of numbers, they are just changing which individual horses are shot. And perpetuating a situation where people breed when there is no market for the product.


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## ycbm (20 January 2017)

ester said:



			Depends what source you are getting your horse from doesn't it? If it has been mingling with lots of others, who have been mingling with lots of others and likely had insufficient vet care the risk is much higher than if you are purchasing one worth a 5 stage vetting. 

I have yet to come across a livery yard decent or not that quarantines but it seems to depend on area, quite a lot in some areas are requiring testing instead these days.

Of course most charities pay staff, it is totally normal, they don't ever claim they don't?
		
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There are at least thirty yards in this area within an hour of me that offer livery, Ester. I know of only one that quarantines and that is because they are a hunting yard (co run the hunt) and have fifty liverties and run events.  They cannot afford a lock down situation.  I don't think it's very common.


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## ycbm (20 January 2017)

June08 said:



			. Horses as you know generally come from busy yards and have been out on the show circuit . .
		
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Uhhhhh???


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## paddi22 (20 January 2017)

June08 said:



			Yawn good night to this entire thread. I've got better things to spend my time on. I can see from all your post history you all spend a lot of time on here, which I don't. Good luck to you all, get out there and save some horses.
		
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yeah i plan on saving horses by stopping them getting to ahar in the first place! I'm sure you do have better things to be doing with your time, such as encouraging a charity to keep puppy farmers busy at fairs. Go you!n I'm not surprised you're tired, you're neck must be exhausted swiviling around so much so you can turn a blind eye.


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## paddi22 (20 January 2017)

June08 said:



			Horses as you know generally come from busy yards and have been out on the show circuit .
		
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oh are we playing a new game called 'horses as you know" 

can i play too?

"Horses, as you know, generally are fluent in french, but struggle with the slavic languages as the vowels are too tricky for their horsey tongues"


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## JJS (20 January 2017)

ester said:



			I have yet to come across a livery yard decent or not that quarantines but it seems to depend on area, quite a lot in some areas are requiring testing instead these days.
		
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I've never yet come across a yard that quarantines either, nor have I come across one that requires testing, June08. But then, unlike rescues, private owners tend to know the provenance of the horses they're purchasing. AHAR very clearly doesn't, and should thus be imposing much more stringent measures to ensure that their equines are healthy before they rehome.


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## Dave's Mam (21 January 2017)

paddi22 said:



			oh are we playing a new game called 'horses as you know" 

can i play too?

"Horses, as you know, generally are fluent in french, but struggle with the slavic languages as the vowels are too tricky for their horsey tongues"
		
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Mine has a Moorish brogue, tinged with Northern English.  

By the way, you owe me for the gulp of beer I just spat all over myself.


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## LadySam (21 January 2017)

paddi22 said:



			oh are we playing a new game called 'horses as you know" 

can i play too?

"Horses, as you know, generally are fluent in french, but struggle with the slavic languages as the vowels are too tricky for their horsey tongues"
		
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## Kaylum (21 January 2017)

It is a requirement of the NEWC membership to have quarantine facilities and for every new animal coming onto the premises to be quarantined. To keep membership they will inspect the premises yearly to make sure you have these facilities, along with a massive list of other requirements.


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## ester (21 January 2017)

JJS said:



			I've never yet come across a yard that quarantines either, nor have I come across one that requires testing, June08. But then, unlike rescues, private owners tend to know the provenance of the horses they're purchasing. AHAR very clearly doesn't, and should thus be imposing much more stringent measures to ensure that their equines are healthy before they rehome.
		
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Provenance that was the word I was looking for, going to shows and coming from busy yards (if indeed they do?!?) is not comparable with the infection risk of having done the fairs circuit and met everyone in between. 

Both mine came from the yard down the road so . All the cases of strangles I have known in recent times have come from something with a dubious sales history.


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## MiniMilton (21 January 2017)

I have bought from sales and fairs, and I would never bring them home and just let them mix with the others. Always always a 3 week quarentine. I'd doubt i'm some sort of rarity. Admittedly if I bought from a private seller that I trusted (and I would always quiz if they mixed with new horses recently) I probably wouldnt be as strict with the quarentine. But coming from a fair...

I have helped out other equine charities in Ireland and they have quarentine facilities. It should be compulsary for any rescue. A "rescue" buying at a fair and doing a quick turnaround and rehoming without quarentine is highly irresponsible


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## Tiddlypom (21 January 2017)

MiniMilton said:



			A "rescue" buying at a fair and doing a quick turnaround and rehoming without quarentine is highly irresponsible
		
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Indeed, it's not 'rescuing', it's low end dealing.


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## paddi22 (21 January 2017)

that's exactly what it is.  If someone came on here and was doing the same, they'd be rightly villified


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## Chocolate moonbeam (26 January 2017)




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## KittenInTheTree (26 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:










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Sorry, I'm utterly lost. Are you and/or the writer of the above letter inferring that there are and/or have been non-serious welfare issues at and/or relating to AHAR?


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## popsdosh (26 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:










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Blimey that number of inspections in such a short period suggests problems or perhaps you think they enjoy the tea and cake.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (26 January 2017)

It states they have found no serious welfare issues.  Any issues that have been found such as the lack of a map to some rented grazing have obviously been dealt with satisfactorily and been closed down.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (26 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Blimey that number of inspections in such a short period suggests problems or perhaps you think they enjoy the tea and cake.
		
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Or that people keep reporting them for non existant welfare issues.


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## popsdosh (26 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			It states they have found no serious welfare issues.  Any issues that have been found such as the lack of a map to some rented grazing have obviously been dealt with satisfactorily and been closed down.
		
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I suppose its down to the interpretation of serious. Any welfare issues at such a charity to some maybe a shock ! Hopefully its days are numbered as it does nothing for equine welfare IMHO and is merely a clever scam!


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## popsdosh (26 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Or that people keep reporting them for non existant welfare issues.
		
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Sorry that letter very clearly confirms there are welfare issues ,which way do you want it ! I guess in a legitimate well run charity you would rightly expect none.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (26 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I suppose its down to the interpretation of serious. Any welfare issues at such a charity to some maybe a shock ! Hopefully its days are numbered as it does nothing for equine welfare IMHO and is merely a clever scam!
		
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Or perhaps calling it a welfare notice is a misnomer as it implies a serious lack of care which may not actually be the case as in the welfare notice for said map.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (26 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Sorry that letter very clearly confirms there are welfare issues ,which way do you want it ! I guess in a legitimate well run charity you would rightly expect none.
		
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If there were welfare issues why is the place still operating?


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## popsdosh (26 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Or perhaps calling it a welfare notice is a misnomer as it implies a serious lack of care which may not actually be the case as in the welfare notice for said map.
		
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The letter is very carefully worded as im sure you are aware it only actually states that the two most recent visits in 2017 have not shown up any serious welfare issues it doesn't actually comment on the ones before just to mention there are no outstanding serious issues which suggests to me there were serious issues that may have gone away for whatever reason.


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## popsdosh (26 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			If there were welfare issues why is the place still operating?
		
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I think its days are numbered until the resurrection under a different name no doubt!


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## puppyalert (26 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			The letter is very carefully worded as im sure you are aware it only actually states that the two most recent visits in 2017 have not shown up any serious welfare issues it doesn't actually comment on the ones before just to mention there are no outstanding serious issues which suggests to me there were serious issues that may have gone away for whatever reason.
		
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The letter did not clarify the full extent of the inspections or notices served for some very odd reason.  Unless it was the way the request for information was worded to receive a reply with the mininal information swayed in one direction to favour AHAR and their supporters and to distract from the RTE programe.  Because the letter omitted the following:-  
1 Animal Health & Welfare notice to cease transport of live animals 8/31/2016 
2 Animal Health & Welfare notice to limit intake to 20 equines 5/26/2016 
3 Animal Health & Welfare notice to seek veterinary attention for 3 equines. 4/13/2016 
4 Animal Health & Welfare notice to stop taking in equines & provide maps 4/13/2016 
5 Animal Health & Welfare notice to seek veterinary attention for 2 sheep on holding. 4/8/2016 1 
6 Aninal Health & Welfare notice to cease use of a dog transporter as a kennel. 4/8/2016 1 
7 Aninal Health & Welfare notice to reduce equine numbers to 60 by 30/4/2016 & the number of canines on the holding to 45. 4/8/2016 1 
8 Animal Welfare At Risk Herd Report Form AW5 303116 8/31/2016 
9 Animal Welfare At Risk Herd Report Form AW5 302484 8/23/2016 
10 Animal Welfare At Risk Herd Report Form AW5 301990 8/16/2016 
11 Animal Welfare At Risk Herd Report Form AW5 301931 8/15/2016 
12 Animal Welfare At Risk Herd Report Form AW5 300627 7/26/2016 
13 Animal Welfare At Risk Herd Report Form AW5 296436 6/10/2016 
14 Animal Welfare At Risk Herd Report Form AW5 288039 5/5/2016 5 
15 Animal Welfare At Risk Herd Report Form AW5 286788 4/26/2016 
16 Animal Welfare At Risk Herd Report Form AW5 286787 4/20/2016 
17 Animal Welfare At Risk Herd Report Form AW5 286039 4/13/2016 
18 Animal Welfare At Risk Herd Report Form AW5 285301 4/8/2016 5 
19 Animal Welfare At Risk Herd Report Form AW5 284084 4/1/2016 5 
20 Animal Welfare At Risk Herd Report Form AW5 283582 3/23/2016 
21 Animal Welfare At Risk Herd Report Form AW5 283581 3/11/2016 
22 Animal Welfare At Risk Herd Report Form AW5 280750 2/9/2016 5 
23 Veterinary Inspection Report 264965 11/3/2015


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## stormox (26 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam, whether there were or were not (and there obviously were, from that letter) welfare concerns, that does not negate the fact that the issues raised in the Clare Byrne report re accounts, bookkeeping etc are true.


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## ycbm (26 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			If there were welfare issues why is the place still operating?
		
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Ash, you've caught up at last. This is the very question we are all asking!!


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## RoseMc (26 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			If there were welfare issues why is the place still operating?
		
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I have  not commented before on this matter, although I have been following the behaviour of this so called  rescue since it's time  up  in the  bog. I do not go on facebook, which is where most of the action seems to take place, because I will not be dragged into the petty slanging matches that go on.
I can tell you that anyone who says there are no welfare concerns about AHAR only has to go to their own page on Facebook and read some of their own posts.
Then we have the recent exposure, 16 year old  dog dies on the table  and is brought back. Failure number one by the vet. The  dog is then transported to a foster/new owner with very sparse information at best. Even the video that is floating  around, clearly shows an old  dog, in very poor condition, coming to the end of his time.
Then we have the 6 emaciated horses that shipped to the UK, again I question which vet would sign  health certs  for transport... so a failure by the vet  again. There is also word of 2 foals  shipped to Scotland with strangles, to novice owners, with little  or no experience of horses of  any kind. 
Then we have the Two Shetlands  that featured in the  The Sunday Mail article. I question firstly, how any vet could pass these animals fit to travel. Then I question how any Rescue could possibly think it was ok to send them on such a harrowing journey, in such a poor state. But  what I question more than anything else is why, people who say they are animal lovers are  alright with any of this. 
Forget the unaccounted for money, 
Forget the lies about the Manager Ms. Gibbons not being paid.
Animals are neglected, dying, and by some reports abused under Ms. Gibbons watch and authority, yet people seem to be somewhat overlooking that.
For any animal welfare organisation to get 20 odd Animal Welfare notices of different  types, clearly there is a huge issue.
I will tell you also that the department are refusing FOI request  for information under section 15. for fear the information is vexatious and may be posted on facebook. As it should be public knowledge freely available this points to officials in the department actual covering up  for AHAR.  (That is a quote to a request I personally put in.)
Now  after all the evidence  that  has come to light  as part of the official record, how anyone can defend any part of AHAR is beyond me.


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## Cortez (26 January 2017)

Alright, enough of the histrionics. This is precisely why I have commented on this post in the first place; there are better rescues than AHAR, there are also much worse places. I have a dog which I adopted from AHAR as do several friends of mine, I have been there twice. It is clean, orderly, relatively well organised and the proceedures involved in obtaining my dog were all in place. I have no doubt that there are irregularities, but claims of deliberate fraud, cruelty and outright serious neglect do not chime with what I have seen with my own eyes. To accuse veterinary surgeons of fraud is a very serious matter and one which I am sure they and their regulatory body will be pleased to refute.

Claims, without actual facts, are just that, and to judge by what I have seen hurled about in reference to this particular rescue, there are some people with a dedicated agenda at work - and fertile imaginations.


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## RoseMc (26 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Claims, without actual facts, are just that, and to judge by what I have seen hurled about in reference to this particular rescue, there are some people with a dedicated agenda at work - and fertile imaginations.
		
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What is not factual about  
2 dead Ponies after they were transported to the UK
or
The 20+ Animal Welfare notices.
Even their own ex-admins have stated on public record that you don't see the problems until you are accepted into the inner circle and have been there a while.
Also  why not let us address the crippled horse who was found on the golf course in Limerick. After AHAR Fund  raised for her treatment. Almost a year later she was found  UNTREATED on the gold course with other emaciated horses. She was returned to AHAR and then vanished.
How can you  close your eyes to this.
As to the vet that signed the health certs, I have already lodged a complaint.


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## Cortez (26 January 2017)

I don't have to close my eyes; unlike the vast majority of people who have commented on this and other threads I have actually seen the place with my own eyes. I did not see any of the things at AHAR that have been claimed, therefore I am awaiting factual evidence in order to form an opinion. I have seen the video of Hero, the condition is UNTREATABLE, and IMO he/she should have been euthanised immediately, and I would hope that that is what was, belatedly, done with him/her. Animal Welfare notices are regularly issued to animal holding facilities, and once they are complied with then they have done their job - our local mart has been given multiple notices to clean out the cattle pens, 10 - 15 I think over a couple of years, but it's not a den of cruelty and abuse. 

There are a lot of claims flying about, there are people with an agenda. How do any of us know the true circumstances? I could claim that my dog was beaten and mutilated at AHAR, but it wouldn't be true just because I said it. All of this latest swirl of controvesy was created by a TV program; I work in the media and know how very simple it is to create something out of very little - as I feel was done in the program. Essentially they have been taken to task over crap book keeping and have undertaken to remedy this. I think everyone should calm down.


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## ester (26 January 2017)

Do you not think it is a welfare issue that hero was not euthanised and her condition managed if not treated over the course of a year if they decided not to euth? - I'd like to have seen a video of her after the farrier to decide if any improvement/management was possible or not and if the latter the right decision made by a responsible rescue. As much as anything there complete lack of real response when that situation came out is the sort of thing that makes me think maybe people are right to be concerned.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (26 January 2017)

RoseMc said:



			I have  not commented before on this matter, although I have been following the behaviour of this so called  rescue since it's time  up  in the  bog. I do not go on facebook, which is where most of the action seems to take place, because I will not be dragged into the petty slanging matches that go on.
I can tell you that anyone who says there are no welfare concerns about AHAR only has to go to their own page on Facebook and read some of their own posts.
Then we have the recent exposure, 16 year old  dog dies on the table  and is brought back. Failure number one by the vet. The  dog is then transported to a foster/new owner with very sparse information at best. Even the video that is floating  around, clearly shows an old  dog, in very poor condition, coming to the end of his time.
		
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Sparse information?  A conversation with a vet to ensure she was happy to take on an elderly dog with health issues, information relating to his diet and care was supposed to be passed onto the new owner via the person responsible for rehoming animals at the time and yes, a video of a dog who was supposedly in very bad shape and unable to get about, taken just one day before he was put to sleep showing him very well able to get about.  




			Then we have the 6 emaciated horses that shipped to the UK, again I question which vet would sign  health certs  for transport... so a failure by the vet  again. There is also word of 2 foals  shipped to Scotland with strangles, to novice owners, with little  or no experience of horses of  any kind.
		
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The 6 emaciated horses that the lady in question actually went and hand picked from AHAR you mean and as for the strangles, well there doesn't appear to be strangles at AHAR judging by the equines that have gone up on the page for rehoming in the past 24 hours.  




			Then we have the Two Shetlands  that featured in the  The Sunday Mail article. I question firstly, how any vet could pass these animals fit to travel. Then I question how any Rescue could possibly think it was ok to send them on such a harrowing journey, in such a poor state. But  what I question more than anything else is why, people who say they are animal lovers are  alright with any of this.
		
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I would question why the adopter would remove specialist shoes from laminitic animals.  She didn't even appear to know what they were calling them 'weird shoes' which immediately got removed.  I wonder what harm that did to the pony.





			Forget the unaccounted for money, 
Forget the lies about the Manager Ms. Gibbons not being paid.
Animals are neglected, dying, and by some reports abused under Ms. Gibbons watch and authority, yet people seem to be somewhat overlooking that.
		
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Well, all I can say is that the DAFM don't seem to hold the same view about neglect or abuse otherwise I do believe they would shut her down,  something you seem to be overlooking.




			For any animal welfare organisation to get 20 odd Animal Welfare notices of different  types, clearly there is a huge issue.
I will tell you also that the department are refusing FOI request  for information under section 15. for fear the information is vexatious and may be posted on facebook. As it should be public knowledge freely available this points to officials in the department actual covering up  for AHAR.  (That is a quote to a request I personally put in.)
Now  after all the evidence  that  has come to light  as part of the official record, how anyone can defend any part of AHAR is beyond me.
		
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20 odd animal welfare notices?  Are you referring to that rather odd looking list posted a bit further back for which most of the entries have absolutely no meaning.


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## paddi22 (26 January 2017)

Cortez, just out of curiosity did you get a  full tour of the place? and was it an expected visit?

If, for example,  a chinese restaurant had had multiple official warning notices, and kept its kitchens hidden and was accused of bad food practices and hygiene. And a lot of people were getting sick from it, and this was proven. And people who used to work there were going to the authorities to warn them.  I don't think it works to say 'well i had a meal there and it was fine and the counter at the front looked fine to me" . There is obviously a serious issue that is going on years. There is no other charity that gets the bad attention they do, and its for a reason. Their own photography on their own site damns them enough times.


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## paddi22 (26 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			The 6 emaciated horses that the lady in question actually went and hand picked from AHAR you mean
		
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The fact that a charity would LET a stranger just come and 'handpick' 6 emaciated horses says it all really...


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## Chocolate moonbeam (26 January 2017)

paddi22 said:



			The fact that a charity would LET a stranger just come and 'handpick' 6 emaciated horses says it all really...
		
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Depends on the purpose.  As I understood it, that purpose was to rehabilitate them.  Do you have an issue with rescue horses being rehabilitated by the person adopting them if they so choose to do so?


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## paddi22 (26 January 2017)

I have an issue with a rescue releasing horses to someone and then claiming the person is unsuitable/neglectful. they obviously didn't do their homechecks.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (26 January 2017)

paddi22 said:



			I have an issue with a rescue releasing horses to someone and then claiming the person is unsuitable/neglectful. they obviously didn't do their homechecks.
		
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Actually, as I recall it was the person who took the horses who did the complaining.  That very same person who sent images of the horses to AHAR to show how well they were doing.


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## paddi22 (26 January 2017)

I do work with a rescue and never NOT EVEN ONCE has an animal died in an unnatural short timeframe with an owner. And never once has the charity been on complaining about someone they rehomed to, because
a. they rehome healthy animals in good condition
b. they homecheck properly and release animals to people who has the funds/experience to care for those animals

This is proven NOT to be the case with AHAR, with multiple people coming forward with awful stories. I have no axe to grind with AHAR, I wish they were run properly as rescue animals need as much help as they can get. But at some stage you have to admit that if there's that much smoke, then there's a fire somewhere


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## Chocolate moonbeam (26 January 2017)

paddi22 said:



			I do work with a rescue and never NOT EVEN ONCE has an animal died in an unnatural short timeframe with an owner. And never once has the charity been on complaining about someone they rehomed to, because
a. they rehome healthy animals in good condition
b. they homecheck properly and release animals to people who has the funds/experience to care for those animals

This is proven NOT to be the case with AHAR, with multiple people coming forward with awful stories. *I have no axe to grind with AHAR,* I wish they were run properly as rescue animals need as much help as they can get. But at some stage you have to admit that if there's that much smoke, then there's a fire somewhere
		
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You could have fooled me.


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## paddi22 (26 January 2017)

I just find it frustrating that gullible people  are donating money that just disappears into the ether and is used to encourage puppy farmers to breed more litters to sell at fairs. Keep horses crippled and lame and have them just disappear (i feel sick thinking about that poor hero horse). The irish horse world is very very small and i've yet to meet anyone reputable who has a good word to say about the charity. I've come across ex suppliers who were blackmailed. Transporters who were landed with undocumented horses and then had to scramble to sort the paperwork out themselves. Factory workers who saw her swop healthy horses for bone thin ones in the factory and couldn't do anything about it because it's not technically illegal. Just time and again so much stuff, and its upseting to think she has manipulated people to donate cash.

And i've gotten animals and helped out with a few charities, and absolutely non have the same drama, the arguements with 'haters', anything. They just run as normal charities.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (26 January 2017)

paddi22 said:



			I just find it frustrating that gullible people  are donating money that just disappears into the ether and is used to encourage puppy farmers to breed more litters to sell at fairs. Keep horses crippled and lame and have them just disappear (i feel sick thinking about that poor hero horse). The irish horse world is very very small and i've yet to meet anyone reputable who has a good word to say about the charity. I've come across ex suppliers who were blackmailed. Transporters who were landed with undocumented horses and then had to scramble to sort the paperwork out themselves. Factory workers who saw her swop healthy horses for bone thin ones in the factory and couldn't do anything about it because it's not technically illegal. Just time and again so much stuff, and its upseting to think she has manipulated people to donate cash.

And i've gotten animals and helped out with a few charities, and absolutely non have the same drama, the arguements with 'haters', anything. They just run as normal charities.
		
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I hope you have proof of this because claims like this without proof leave you skating on thin ice.


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## paddi22 (26 January 2017)

yep i do, and most of the people involved are more than happy to rant away to anyone who asks them, and most have already. But it's easy to write off as haters i suppose


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## paddi22 (26 January 2017)

Irelands horse world is tiny, and everyone talks.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (26 January 2017)

paddi22 said:



			yep i do, and most of the people involved are more than happy to rant away to anyone who asks them, and most have already. But it's easy to write off as haters i suppose
		
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Concrete proof that would be.


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## paddi22 (26 January 2017)

edited


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## RoseMc (26 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I believe that list is part of an official DAFM excel sheet, that was part of a response, mistakenly included in an FOI  information refusal 

You seem very good at twisting situations to suit  your/ AHAR's agenda. I have to wonder when you will stand up for the animals, because as of now you are showing yourself to be as bad as Gibbons.... uncaring and full of excuses.
		
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## Chocolate moonbeam (26 January 2017)

RoseMc said:



			I believe that list is part of an official DAFM excel sheet, that was part of a response, mistakenly included in an FOI  information refusal 

You seem very good at twisting situations to suit  your/ AHAR's agenda. I have to wonder when you will stand up for the animals, because as of now you are showing yourself to be as bad as Gibbons.... uncaring and full of excuses.
		
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With the dates written in an American format?


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## RoseMc (27 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			With the dates written in an American format?
		
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  Had not  noticed TBH,  I have seen a copy of the original refusal with 2 attachments, one of which is the excel sheet I mentioned, the dates look normal on that, first date  being 31/8/16.
You seem very hung up on what I would  consider to be minor details while  entirely avoiding the major issue, which is the on going poor practices and animal welfare at AHAR.
Why is that?


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## ycbm (27 January 2017)

I would question why the adopter would remove specialist shoes from laminitic animals. She didn't even appear to know what they were calling them 'weird shoes' which immediately got removed. I wonder what harm that did to the pony.
		
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I'm astonished that you think this is a defence of AHAR, Chocolate Moonbeam. How on earth could they rehome a  severe laminitic to people like that?

I think it is time that you told us whether you are simply a supporter, an employee, our what else your connection is with AHAR.

I ask because if you are someone who has been obtaining money from them, legally or illegally, that would change the picture totally. We know Cortez well and she has made her points well. But for all we know, you are the knackerman laughing all the way to the bank from the horses that you sell to them.


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## ester (27 January 2017)

They shouldn't be rehoming active laminitics to anyone 
They shouldn't be rehoming emaciated horses to anyone 
They should be doing as any reputable rescue would be doing which is treating and rehabilitating before an animal goes out the door so that it is sent with best chance. However it seems they prefer to play a numbers game of how many they can get through rather than best practice,


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## Chocolate moonbeam (27 January 2017)

RoseMc said:



			Had not  noticed TBH,  I have seen a copy of the original refusal with 2 attachments, one of which is the excel sheet I mentioned, the dates look normal on that, first date  being 31/8/16.
You seem very hung up on what I would  consider to be minor details while  entirely avoiding the major issue, which is the on going poor practices and animal welfare at AHAR.
Why is that?
		
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Yes, i'm sure you have.  Slight coincidence that this list appeared within a few hours of the DAFM letter being put up on the AHAR facebook page though.  You couldn't make it up...or could you


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## Chocolate moonbeam (27 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			I'm astonished that you think this is a defence of AHAR, Chocolate Moonbeam. How on earth could they rehome a  severe laminitic to people like that?

I think it is time that you told us whether you are simply a supporter, an employee, our what else your connection is with AHAR.

I ask because if you are someone who has been obtaining money from them, legally or illegally, that would change the picture totally. We know Cortez well and she has made her points well. But for all we know, you are the knackerman laughing all the way to the bank from the horses that you sell to them.
		
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People like what?  People who claim to have 20 years experience with rescue animals?

As for the rest of your post, whether I have or do not have any connection with AHAR is none of your business.  This is not a court of law, it's a free to join forum, a forum which provided my posts do not break the rules i am also free to post my opinion.


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## ester (27 January 2017)

It matters not one jot how many years experience they claimed they had or even if they actually had. They shouldn't have left ahar until treatment was concluded and they were fully rehabbed.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (27 January 2017)

ester said:



			It matters not one jot how many years experience they claimed they had or even if they actually had. They shouldn't have left ahar until treatment was concluded and they were fully rehabbed.
		
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As I said, that depends on whether the people taking the animals are happy to do so.

No one actually forced this sanctuary to take those animals.


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## ycbm (27 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			People like what?  People who claim to have 20 years experience with rescue animals?

As for the rest of your post, whether I have or do not have any connection with AHAR is none of your business.  This is not a court of law, it's a free to join forum, a forum which provided my posts do not break the rules i am also free to post my opinion.
		
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As you say, you are free to post your opinions. Just as I am free to post my questions. And in the light of this answer I think it's more likely that you are the owner, or a close connection, or a knackerman making a killing by not killing, than anyone else. I will downgrade how much notice I take of your defence of AHAR accordingly until I know different.


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## ester (27 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			As I said, that depends on whether the people taking the animals are happy to do so.

No one actually forced this sanctuary to take those animals.
		
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No it doesn't and it shouldn't! It is not in the animals best interests to leave until it is treated and rehabbed regardless whether someone is happy to take them or not! Tell me of another reputable charity that would do that?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (27 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			As you say, you are free to post your opinions. Just as I am free to post my questions. And in the light of this answer I think it's more likely that you are the owner, or a close connection, or a knackerman making a killing by not killing, than anyone else. I will downgrade how much notice I take of your defence of AHAR accordingly until I know different.
		
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You can think what you like, it's still none of your business.

You are free to comment on or ignore my posts as much as you like, it makes no odds to me.


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## ycbm (27 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			As I said, that depends on whether the people taking the animals are happy to do so.

No one actually forced this sanctuary to take those animals.
		
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I'm happy to take six  thin horses from you, can you send them over in March?  I will use the summer to let them get fat on my grass that I don't need, and then take them to the abattoir to be paid by the kilo for their carcasses. 

One of the problems, the many problems, with AHAR seems to be that you would have no idea whether I was that person or a genuine horse lover.

Indeed, you seem to be perfectly happy to rehome any horse with anyone who is happy to have it, suitable horse/suitable home or not


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## ycbm (27 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			You can think what you like, it's still none of your business.

You are free to comment on or ignore my posts as much as you like, it makes no odds to me.
		
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You make it my business by posting on an open forum.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (27 January 2017)

ester said:



			No it doesn't and it shouldn't! It is not in the animals best interests to leave until it is treated and rehabbed regardless whether someone is happy to take them or not! Tell me of another reputable charity that would do that?
		
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The fact that the pony had specialist shoes on is evidence the animal was being treated.

Neither you nor i knows what correspondence on information given there was between AHAR and the sanctuary in question relating to the ponies ongoing care.


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## ycbm (27 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Neither you nor i knows what correspondence on information given there was between AHAR and the sanctuary in question relating to the ponies ongoing care.
		
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True, but we do know that whatever it was, it was inadequate, because of the result.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (27 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			I'm happy to take six  thin horses from you, can you send them over in March?  I will use the summer to let them get fat on my grass that I don't need, and then take them to the abattoir to be paid by the kilo for their carcasses. 

One of the problems, the many problems, with AHAR seems to be that you would have no idea whether I was that person or a genuine horse lover.

Indeed, you seem to be perfectly happy to rehome any horse with anyone who is happy to have it, suitable horse our suitable home or not 

Click to expand...

If that were the case then I would suggest that it is the adopter at fault for misleading AHAR into believing they had the animals best interests at heart and had the knowledge to care or them properly.


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## ester (27 January 2017)

Was being treated 

Treatment was not concluded that is the entire basis of my point :rolleyes3:

I don't care about any correspondence, anyone can call themselves a sanctuary etc and anyone can tell you what they like about their experience. - as you have highlighted about the fact that shoes were misunderstood and removed. An animal currently undergoing treatment for an acute condition should not be leaving until treatment has been completed. I don't see why that would be so complicated for anyone to get their head round or why that would not seem to be good practice in the best interests of the animal when running a rescue?- where surely the whole point of running a rescue is to do the best for an animal?


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## ester (27 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			If that were the case then I would suggest that it is the adopter at fault for misleading AHAR into believing they had the animals best interests at heart and had the knowledge to care or them properly.
		
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And ahar has no responsibility for checking what people tell them? Surely they know people can be amazing at spiel? If they cannot sufficiently check surely that is just more evidence that vulnerable animals should not be leaving them while still in acute circumstances?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (27 January 2017)

ester said:



			Was being treated 

Treatment was not concluded that is the entire basis of my point :rolleyes3:

I don't care about any correspondence, anyone can call themselves a sanctuary etc and anyone can tell you what they like about their experience. - as you have highlighted about the fact that shoes were misunderstood and removed. An animal currently undergoing treatment for an acute condition should not be leaving until treatment has been completed. I don't see why that would be so complicated for anyone to get their head round or why that would not seem to be good practice in the best interests of the animal when running a rescue?- where surely the whole point of running a rescue is to do the best for an animal?
		
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Rescues rehome animals with ongoing health conditions all the time.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (27 January 2017)

ester said:



			And ahar has no responsibility for checking what people tell them? Surely they know people can be amazing at spiel? If they cannot sufficiently check surely that is just more evidence that vulnerable animals should not be leaving them while still in acute circumstances?
		
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What do you suggest, that someone goes and lives with them for a few months to assess their ability to care for an animal?

There is only so much any animal rescue centre can do to determine an adopters suitability to take on an animal.


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## ester (27 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Rescues rehome animals with ongoing health conditions all the time.
		
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Which is why I have continually said ACUTE


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## ycbm (27 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			If that were the case then I would suggest that it is the adopter at fault for misleading AHAR into believing they had the animals best interests at heart and had the knowledge to care or them properly.
		
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Other charities do home checks and follow ups. Why don't AHAR? You don't seem to give a damn what happens to your animals after you have passed them on? That's one of the big problems, it seems, and animals are being caused further suffering because of it.


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## ester (27 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			What do you suggest, that someone goes and lives with them for a few months to assess their ability to care for an animal?

There is only so much any animal rescue centre can do to determine an adopters suitability to take on an animal.
		
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That's the point there is only so much you can do so vulnerable animals with ACUTE conditions should not be leaving.

Though I would be interested If they had visited and taken veterinary references


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## ycbm (27 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			There is only so much any animal rescue centre can do to determine an adopters suitability to take on an animal.
		
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Do AHAR do any of it? Home checks, follow ups, references, or do they just chuck a horse into a lorry, (often to England it seems though heaven knows why as we have enough horses here needing homes - why put one down in this country and transport one in from overseas?) and wave bye bye?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (27 January 2017)

ester said:



			Which is why I have continually said ACUTE
		
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http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/laminitis-in-horses-signs-treatment-57937

According to this article What that pony had was chronic laminitis.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (27 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Do AHAR do any of it? Home checks, follow ups, references, or do they just chuck a horse into a lorry, (often to England it seems though heaven knows why as we have enough horses here needing homes - why put one down in this country and transport one in from overseas?) and wave bye bye?
		
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I guess it depends who you believe when reading accounts of people who have adopted from there.


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## ester (27 January 2017)

You can have chronic lami with acute episode they are not mutually exclusive. if the pony is in pain and requiring specialist shoeing it is having an acute episode.


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## Tiddlypom (27 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Do AHAR do any of it? Home checks, follow ups, references, or do they just chuck a horse into a lorry, (often to England it seems though heaven knows why as we have enough horses here needing homes - why put one down in this country and transport one in from overseas?) and wave bye bye?
		
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Absolutely this.

I am an approved foster home for equines for the RSPCA. I had initial interviews at the rescue centre, was supervised whilst I interacted with my chosen foster fillies, and then had a thorough home check. The foster ponies come with a full veterinary and behavioural assessment. There is much back up and interim checks. They know which animals tend to suit me (I'm good at getting the shy, nervous ones to settle and grow in confidence).

None of which seem to happen at AHAR.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (27 January 2017)

ester said:



			You can have chronic lami with acute episode they are not mutually exclusive. if the pony is in pain and requiring specialist shoeing it is having an acute episode.
		
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This seems to disagree with you and it's not the only article that does.

Going from Acute to Chronic

Veterinarians consider laminitis to be in the acute stage when it first develops. They generally consider the disease to be chronic when the coffin bone has displaced or rotated within the hoof capsule, says Belknap. 

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/33392/managing-chronic-laminitis


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## Chocolate moonbeam (27 January 2017)

ester said:



			You can have chronic lami with acute episode they are not mutually exclusive. if the pony is in pain and requiring specialist shoeing it is having an acute episode.
		
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And this article suggests completely the opposite to what you said here regarding shoeing the laminitic horse.

http://www.equipodiatry.com/article_options_acute-chronic_laminitis.htm


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## ester (27 January 2017)

The way I am and a frequent use of the term acute - in significant pain and requiring intervention currently rather than general management input. I'm a hoof geek and a scientist I am well aware of the intricacies of lami and it's requirements.   

As usual you seem to be heading off on a tangent and clearly don't know my posting history on things as you would then know that I am fully aware of the multitude of options for treating laminitis and that not all involve shoeing...... 

But regardless of the lami situation the same applies for the emaciated horses too.


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## paddi22 (27 January 2017)

So chocolate moonbeam - according to your own words ahar sent a pony with a n extremely serious ailment, that needed specialist shoeing to a person who was (in your words again) incapable of understanding the condition and didn't understand what the 'weird' shoes even were?

What any normal person picks up from this story is AHAR being at fault for 
a. sending out a pony with a chronic illness
b. not explaining to the new owner what the 'weird' shoes were, why they were needed, or even checking up that they had a good farrier who understood why they were there

AHAr is 100% at fault here, not the new owner. They either didnt homecheck or follow that the footcare of a seriously in pain horse was going to be followed. 

You can't send out a sick horse and then complain the new owner is at fault. That new owner should known exactly what condition that pony was going over in, exactly what was on its feet and why. AHAR didn't do that.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (27 January 2017)

ester said:



			The way I am and a frequent use of the term acute - in significant pain and requiring intervention currently rather than general management input. I'm a hoof geek and a scientist I am well aware of the intricacies of lami and it's requirements.   

As usual you seem to be heading off on a tangent and clearly don't know my posting history on things as you would then know that I am fully aware of the multitude of options for treating laminitis and that not all involve shoeing...... 

But regardless of the lami situation the same applies for the emaciated horses too.
		
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Now who is heading off on a tangent.

I'm well aware that there is debate regarding the treatment of laminitis, however, in this case the pony was shod using specialist shoes which were promptly removed when the animal got to its new home.

I would argue that this is possibly what eventually led to the pony's unfortunate demise.


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## paddi22 (27 January 2017)

And where is hero now? Why can't anyone get an update. 

I've had ponies go over to germany and if anyone asked about them i could get a full update and pictures in a day. I can't understand why this horse has disappeared. My best guess is its dead and they won't acknowledge it, otherwise, why not post a happy update showing where all the money went toget the vet treatment they were sure would work


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## Leo Walker (27 January 2017)

An acute or chronic laminitic shoudnt be travelled unless there is no other option.

An acute or chronic laminitic having remedial shoeing should have the full case history and xrays sent with it

An acute or chronic laminitic almost certainly needs to be xrayed before every shoeing

An acute or chronic laminitic needs the original and new farrier to be put in touch to discuss ongoing management


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## paddi22 (27 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I'm well aware that there is debate regarding the treatment of laminitis, however, in this case the pony was shod using specialist shoes which were promptly removed when the animal got to its new home.

I would argue that this is possibly what eventually led to the pony's unfortunate demise.
		
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BUT why did ahar not check the owner understood exactly what the ponies care involved. A simple check of 'this pony has to be shod x way, do you understand what these shoes are for?' would have solved the issue. But ahar just shipped off a pony in pain to an owner who only became away of the issue when it unloaded, and by all accounts did the correct thing calling a vet and farrier,


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## Chocolate moonbeam (27 January 2017)

paddi22 said:



			So chocolate moonbeam - according to your own words ahar sent a pony with a n extremely serious ailment, that needed specialist shoeing to a person who was (in your words again) incapable of understanding the condition and didn't understand what the 'weird' shoes even were?

What any normal person picks up from this story is AHAR being at fault for 
a. sending out a pony with a chronic illness
b. not explaining to the new owner what the 'weird' shoes were, why they were needed, or even checking up that they had a good farrier who understood why they were there

AHAr is 100% at fault here, not the new owner. They either didnt homecheck or follow that the footcare of a seriously in pain horse was going to be followed. 

You can't send out a sick horse and then complain the new owner is at fault. That new owner should known exactly what condition that pony was going over in, exactly what was on its feet and why. AHAR didn't do that.
		
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I didn't say she was incapable of understanding the condition.

Didn't homecheck you say, well since you are no doubt fully aware that this wasn't the first time this sanctuary had taken horses from AHAR I would imagine that had previously been done.


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## paddi22 (27 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I didn't say she was incapable of understanding the condition.

Didn't homecheck you say, well since you are no doubt fully aware that this wasn't the first time this sanctuary had taken horses from AHAR I would imagine that had previously been done.
		
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but you did, you said she didn't understand the 'weird shoes' which implies that she didn't understand the condition.

its like someone dealing with diabetes and not understanding what the 'weird injection' is. It implies someone doesn't understand a condition - and thats in your own word. You yourself (in your own words) gave out about the owner removing shoes. Why wasn't she told not to before she even recieved the pony. why wasn't the charity linked up intimately in the horses recovery programme with the new owner? AHARS fault.

And a homecheck isn't just a check of a place, its a check if someone understands the extent of an ongoing serious issue a horse has. And if you are complaining the owner is at fault - then that fault traces back to ahar for releasing that horse to the owner. Like you could release an exracer with kissing spine to someone with 5 star yard facilities, but unless they understood the correct riding and physio needed, then thats the wrong home.  AHAR can't give away animals and then moan that the new owners are cruel and negligent.

Edited to say, i don't think the new owners were at fault, i think they just saw the poor pony and called vet and farrier, which is what anyone would do.


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## ester (27 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Now who is heading off on a tangent.

I'm well aware that there is debate regarding the treatment of laminitis, however, in this case the pony was shod using specialist shoes which were promptly removed when the animal got to its new home.

I would argue that this is possibly what eventually led to the pony's unfortunate demise.
		
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I am responding to the fact that you are posting links to articles which tell me nothing I don't already know and I'm not sure why! Nothing more. If the shoes shouldn't have come off ahar should have kept the pony or failing that as they didn't even though i think they should have communicated that to the new keeper and spoke to the new keepers vet and farrier regarding this as records should have been transferred between professionals.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (27 January 2017)

paddi22 said:



			but you did, you said she didn't understand the 'weird shoes' which implies that she didn't understand the condition.

its like someone dealing with diabetes and not understanding what the 'weird injection' is. It implies someone doesn't understand a condition - and thats in your own word. You yourself (in your own words) gave out about the owner removing shoes. Why wasn't she told not to before she even recieved the pony. why wasn't the charity linked up intimately in the horses recovery programme with the new owner? AHARS fault.

And a homecheck isn't just a check of a place, its a check if someone understands the extent of an ongoing serious issue a horse has. And if you are complaining the owner is at fault - then that fault traces back to ahar for releasing that horse to the owner. Like you could release an exracer with kissing spine to someone with 5 star yard facilities, but unless they understood the correct riding and physio needed, then thats the wrong home.  AHAR can't give away animals and then moan that the new owners are cruel and negligent.

Edited to say, i don't think the new owners were at fault, i think they just saw the poor pony and called vet and farrier, which is what anyone would do.
		
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Like I said, none of us know what communication there was between AHAR and this lady, all we have is a media article written by the same journalist who wrote the rather suspect one last year.


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## RoseMc (27 January 2017)

Yet still no mention of the animals  suffering  at the hands of  AHAR, are you an animal lover or a Gibbons lover? because honestly, I see no concern for animals coming from you.


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## RoseMc (27 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Rescues rehome animals with ongoing health conditions all the time.
		
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What,  on the rare occasion that  rescues home an animal with any kind of ailment, let alone a life threatening  one, they also include the entire official vet record so treatment  could be on going. The do not transport animals that are exceptional sick and in pain across the Irish sea on a ferry.


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## RoseMc (27 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/laminitis-in-horses-signs-treatment-57937

According to this article What that pony had was chronic laminitis.
		
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That is consider an ACUTE condition.


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## RoseMc (27 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			Now who is heading off on a tangent.



I would argue that this is possibly what eventually led to the pony's unfortunate demise.
		
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So what would you argue led to the poor condition and eventual demise  of the second  pony. Mrs Bucket.


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## rascal (27 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Other charities do home checks and follow ups. Why don't AHAR? You don't seem to give a damn what happens to your animals after you have passed them on? That's one of the big problems, it seems, and animals are being caused further suffering because of it.
		
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This. Reputable charities do home checks, AHAR do not, just send horses/ponies to anyone it seems, just to get them out of the way. 
Rescues do not buy animals from fairs, this just encourages these people to over breed, be it dogs or horses. 
It is not difficult to talk to people, and get a good idea about the experience (or otherwise) of the people you are talking to, so  why keep blaming the people who rehomed these animals. It is up to AHAR to check the animals are gong to a SUITABLE AND EXPERIENCED home, not just abandon the animals with new people.


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## Chocolate moonbeam (27 January 2017)

RoseMc said:



			So what would you argue led to the poor condition and eventual demise  of the second  pony. Mrs Bucket.
		
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I have absolutely no idea other than what was stated in that newspaper article.

Do you?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (27 January 2017)

RoseMc said:



			That is consider an ACUTE condition.
		
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O&#8217;Grady said laminitis follows a sequence of stages:

The developmental stage, when the internal damage to the lamellae occurs and which ends with the onset of clinical signs (such as pain, an increased digital pulse, and a laminitic stance);

The acute stage, which generally affords the horse&#8217;s caretakers a small window&#8212;24 to 72 hours or until the coffin bone begins to displace from its normal position in the hoof capsule&#8212;to intervene and reverse or halt the internal damage; and

The chronic stage, which generally begins within 72 hours after the acute stage began and during which time the coffin bone continues to move within the hoof capsule and clinical signs continue.

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/36794/tips-for-managing-acute-laminitis


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## stormox (27 January 2017)

Chocolate moonbeam said:



			I didn't say she was incapable of understanding the condition.

Didn't homecheck you say, well since you are no doubt fully aware that this wasn't the first time this sanctuary had taken horses from AHAR I would imagine that had previously been done.
		
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But surely it was not a good idea to rehome from one rescue to another?  Or is Marianne, Swiftwood etc a sanctuary that would provide a permanent home?


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## Chocolate moonbeam (27 January 2017)

stormox said:



			But surely it was not a good idea to rehome from one rescue to another?  Or is Marianne, Swiftwood etc a sanctuary that would provide a permanent home?
		
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Well who knows given what I saw on the net yesterday.


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