# Dangerous horses - where do you draw the line?



## horsemad32 (12 February 2012)

Say a horse has amazing breeding, fab movement and 'potential'.  How much are you willing to take in terms of dangerous behaviour?  How much injury would you be willing to sustain in the hopes of 'taming' that horse?  

I've had a couple of nutcases, but neither of those really hurt me (falling off, yes, but only bruises and I was always up again and back on straight away).  They've both matured into lovely, well behaved horses in the end, with clearly human-caused issues initially that soon went.  I've met people on yards and through friends though, who have horses who don't seem to be getting there at all, and cause sometimes serious injury.  Also hear about these on forums.  It's often worse when the horse has huge 'potential' or amazing breeding - is it really worth risking life and limb when that horse may never come right at all?  How far will you go?


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## Laafet (12 February 2012)

I gave my one 5 years before I had to admit defeat and sold him back to his breeder for a lot less than I paid for him. In the end, he had broken my toes numerous times, given me whip lash and destroyed my confidence to the point where I almost gave up horses all together. He was massively talented but had not go the right mentality for competing which was the most frustrating aspect of it all. The rearing and napping were the worst I have ever encountered and he was prone to explosions of broncing for no apparent reason, he had had every vet check, saddle etc done and was not in pain. His mother was a spicy lady so what was in the cat was certainly in the kitten.
He is now happy on the hunting field, they did try to compete him with the same results as me. So he is better off as he is.


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## kerilli (12 February 2012)

it depends entirely on what the horse does. 
if it's evil to handle, i'd want to work out exactly why.
if it was a flipper, no chance. wouldn't care if it was by Pegasus out of Sleipnir, it'd get the bullet. no self-preservation, no thanks. i don't mind a rearer, otoh...
if it is obviously horribly uncomfortable being ridden, i'd do whatever i could, time wise and money allowing, to get to the bottom of it.
it's difficult though, I have a well-bred homebred, who has already broken me once (launched me for real for no apparent reason, and my knee disassembled itself when I landed on my feet - so not entirely her fault i guess) and i'm just not prepared to give up with her... i'm not sure what that looks like to outsiders, but it doesn't matter.


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## kirstyhen (12 February 2012)

Personally I wouldn't tolerate an awful lot regardless of breeding, potential, etc. but that is because I have zero confidence and if I had something that was constantly threatening to deck me/attack me, it would never reach that potential as I would never do anything with it for fear of getting hurt!

But I know plenty of people that put up with lots, have worked through issues and have lovely (ish!) horses now, it's just not my cup of tea!


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## Goldenstar (12 February 2012)

This is a difficult I recently had one PTS that had a prob that lead to intermittent bouts of broncing before we identified the problem ( it was so intermittent that took ages to get to the bottom of it ) my Oh begged me to get rid of it ,he had to live through five years of surgery after I had abad fall he hated me riding this horse .
When we where talking it though I said I am much more likely to come off the five year old TB we have he said but that's different that would be an accident whereas we know the other one does it.
I could not see the difference at the time but kept my mouth shut as I was worried the way I was taking the discussion could draw to the logical conculsion that they should all go but when I think about it I think where he was coming from was that it be worse to be lying in hospital thinking why why did I keep that horse when I knew it did that rather than that was one of those things.
not fully logical I know but this risking life and limb on horses isnt .


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## ecrozier (12 February 2012)

^^ exactly what kirsty said! I can tolerate a bit of high jinks - my youngster has a buck in him but it's never malicious, my older boy (Arab) can dance around on the spot like an idiot, but for me personally with my ability level, anything that was genuinely trying to unseat me whether through bad behaviour or pain, I wouldn't cope for long!


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## MeganLindsx (12 February 2012)

Obtaining injuries are one thing but destroying confidence is another. My confidence would probably begin to decrease even if no injury was obtained. Or if it was on the ground or being ridden. My mare used to be a nightmere to haddle (rearing straight over your head) but was good to ride but it didn't stop my confidence from being effected.


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## Goldenstar (12 February 2012)

ecrozier said:



			^^ exactly what kirsty said! I can tolerate a bit of high jinks - my youngster has a buck in him but it's never malicious, my older boy (Arab) can dance around on the spot like an idiot, but for me personally with my ability level, anything that was genuinely trying to unseat me whether through bad behaviour or pain, I wouldn't cope for long!
		
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You see I don't fear getting hurt just the inconvenience of it I have given my OH a terrible time now I look back at it non of my smashes have bashed my confidence I just carry on as I get older I see what a rotten time he's had I felt bad for the little horse I had PTS but he nothing bad can happen to him now and all the treatment options only would have been managing the condition hard in a horse that broncs because you get it wrong and your off and my OH is relieved and I understand that totally why now I learning to look at his side more.
Before anyone  does a why not retire thing he was the field victim horribly bullied by every one but hated being out alone.


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## lucille (12 February 2012)

I drew the line when the horse was not only endangering me but everyone around it,
It ran backwards through the barriers at our area BSJA show and knocked the ring over, just because it felt like it, no other reason. I put a pro on it, and after a replay he advised us to take it home before it seriously hurt someone.

Despite it biting my mums head open, backing me down a ditch on several occasions, kicking me every time I tacked it up, and cornering me in its stable several times, rearing above me, and kicking out at passers by whilst I was trying to hack it out, I had persevered, because it had breeding upto the eyeballs (fully branded zangersheide) but at the area show I realised that no matter how tallented it was, it had got to the point where it was too dangerous, to even fullfill that, as it could not be trusted in a public place.

I should have seen it coming from the previous behavoirs but It genuinley was so tallented, and every time I nearly gave up, he would have a good day and I would have a glimmer of hope


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## Goldenstar (12 February 2012)

I should have seen it coming from the previous behavoirs but It genuinley was so tallented, and every time I nearly gave up, he would have a good day and I would have a glimmer of hope[/QUOTE]

That's exactly what they do it's an awful emotional roller coaster but like a roller coaster when you get off you feel better very quickly .


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## MeganLindsx (12 February 2012)

lucille said:



			I drew the line when the horse was not only endangering me but everyone around it,
It ran backwards through the barriers at our area BSJA show and knocked the ring over, just because it felt like it, no other reason. I put a pro on it, and after a replay he advised us to take it home before it seriously hurt someone.
		
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Totally agree, I had to do something when other people began to get frightened by my horse. Its not fair to expect other poeple to deal with your crazy horses or risk them getting hurt by them. (especially now everyone has a lawyer!!)


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## lucille (12 February 2012)

Definatley, I think because the things he would do became almost "normal behavoir" and it was a bonus if he didnt bite / kick/ crush me when I was tacking up and so on, I didnt realise how bad it had got. 

The area show was a serious wakeup call, and when I think back I was insane to keep going as long as I did and im lucky no-one got hurt.

I guess you have to try and see the situation from an outside point of view with no emotional attatchment, what would you advise a friend in youre situation to do?

Theres a million horses out there, if youre really questioning how dangerous the horse is, and wether its time to give up, the answers are probably very, and yes


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## jaquelin (12 February 2012)

I think we imagine that the pro riders will put up with bad behaviour for talent, but I don't think they do.  A pro can ride a challenging horse, but even they will forgo a dangerous horse.  My own observation of what I consider dangerous behaviour in horses is with keen (deluded?) amateurs who don't know when to give up.  I only occasionally have seen a truly dangerous horse but I would not keep one and would probably PTS for everyone's sake. (If it were mine, but then I would never buy one in the first place!)


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## marmalade76 (13 February 2012)

ecrozier said:



			^^ exactly what kirsty said! I can tolerate a bit of high jinks - my youngster has a buck in him but it's never malicious, my older boy (Arab) can dance around on the spot like an idiot, but for me personally with my ability level, anything that was genuinely trying to unseat me whether through bad behaviour or pain, I wouldn't cope for long!
		
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Same here.


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## Goldenstar (13 February 2012)

jaquelin said:



			I think we imagine that the pro riders will put up with bad behaviour for talent, but I don't think they do.  A pro can ride a challenging horse, but even they will forgo a dangerous horse.  My own observation of what I consider dangerous behaviour in horses is with keen (deluded?) amateurs who don't know when to give up.  I only occasionally have seen a truly dangerous horse but I would not keep one and would probably PTS for everyone's sake. (If it were mine, but then I would never buy one in the first place!)
		
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It's quite easy to end up with a dangerous horse in the five years the horse I was talking about was here OH came of him three times twice on one day and I came off him three times so it was a really difficult one a really intermittent problem.
Who knows what might happen to one of your horses after you bought it that might lead to challenging behaviour it's just not as simple as I would never buy a dangerous horse.


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## millitiger (13 February 2012)

I don't think you can say amount of injuries = how dangerous a horse is.

The worst/most dangerous horse I have owned/known only had me off 3 x in 2 years.

His dangerousness came from his total unpredictability and the fact he would turn on you maliciously on the ground and would try and stamp on you if he had you off 

I will put up with a fair bit as long as the horse is not malicious and is showing improvement- there is no point continuing with a horse who WANTS to put you on the floor and is not responding to your training.

Millie has had me off about a dozen times but only once has she meant to put me on the floor- the rest of the time I have simply been a victim of her high jinks! 
She has also been the one who has caused my most serious injury but that doesn't mean she is a dangerous horse- just that I landed awkwardly.


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## SillySausage (13 February 2012)

millitiger said:



			I don't think you can say amount of injuries = how dangerous a horse is.




			Agreed. I've been riding since my 5th birthday and I turn 21 this week.

I fell off two horses when I was younger when jumping because I got too complacent, I've fallen with a horse once, and my current horse bucked me off once. 

My loan mare I fell off about 40 times in the two years I tried to compete her, finishing with me falling and compressing my spine.

However, she is THE most trustworthy mare ever. She just didn't want to jump and I just couldn't sit it! Totally my fault and other than jumping I would trust her with my life.
		
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## Lolo (13 February 2012)

Very early- I won't ride a horse who isn't genuine and kind. I'm nervous and make mistakes and I need my horse to be fairly supportive of that!

Equally for my sister, very early still. There is a big difference between quirky and dangerous and it's just not worth the risk. She's ridden some nutty little ponies but they've all been naughty or particular rather than dangerous. There has been one who was unsafe- it would bronc until she came off, and then pounce on her. It then reared out hacking in protest of going forwards and only just avoided going over backwards because it slipped. It went within a week, and any horse that went up like that would not be ridden again by Al I don't think. The mare in question had so much potential- amazing paces, scopey, bold and brave and an amazing hunter but it was so unpredictable and cruel in it's methods of saying no that it was just not worth it. 

Always amazes me how people will keep going with horses though- there are hundreds of nice ones out there, why risk the not-nice ones? And that's speaking as someone who can only loan/ have the freebies!


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## Equilibrium Ireland (13 February 2012)

As I get older I'm inclined to put up with less. Quirky and not in pain is fine. All horses will be checked to find out if things are ok. But there is a point in which I refuse to continue although I haven't had any issues with my horses to say what this point is. I've bred most and started the ones I own. I've been on a lot of horses over the years and it's not a brag, it's a fact. Over 2000 on a very minor estimate. 

Things I've learned. Be humble, you will never get along with EVERY horse. No matter how good you are there is always someone else out there that can be just as good or better. Some horses do not have self preservation. After a few bad injuries you start to realise no matter how hard you try some horses are a danger to themselves and proving otherwise is painful. Taking a step back and asking if this is something this horse needs to do or perhaps he'd be happy in another career. The difficult dangerous horses are very rare. Far more are just a little messed up through riders who didn't get it. Most of these will come right slowly with patience. Recognizing the truly dangerous horse vs the needs time is sometimes lost. There are so many nice horses no matter what the breeding that you need to think how important it is to you. Retirement is ok as long as you take the responsibility. Putting a dangerous horse down is better than passing that horse on. Not fair on the horse and someone can get hurt badly. Breeding your really witchy mare will calm her while in season. No matter what stallion you choose that mare will be evident in her fillies. Colts and geldings not so much. A horse that you always make excuses for or doesn't give back will always be just that. Two out of 3 times he may give you all but when the chips are down I want to know I'm on a trier. Not one that takes the easy way out. Some horses do this even with nothing wrong. I will work with anything that meets me half way because once you figure them out they give you 150% all the time when needed.

Terri


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## Equilibrium Ireland (13 February 2012)

That should be "calm her while in foal" not while in season. 

Terri


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## TarrSteps (13 February 2012)

It is true, you can't necessarily judge from injuries.  And there is a big difference between coming off an athletic young horse because you don't ride well enough (no offence to anyone but it does happen) and being actively endangered by a horse doing something unusual.  

I have met a few just very insane horses BUT I can count those on my fingers and you know them when you see them!  But the vast, vast majority of horses behaving in unusual/dangerous ways have good reason (fractured necks, electrocution, bad childhood, scared, confused, hocks, back, foot pain, kidney disease, ESPM, bad manangement, brain tumour, feed reactions, badly fitting tack, tooth problems, bone spurs, melanomas impinging somewhere important, ulcers . . . .) but the knowing the reason is not the same thing as being able to solve the problem!  Sometimes the horse needs a career change or another rider or a different situation, which may not be possible where it is.  I know all sorts of horses whose issues have definitely been discomfort related but they were able to go on and do different jobs, even quite stressful ones, for any number of reasons.

That said, I'm amazed what some people put up with! I'm the patron saint of lost causes but even I feel that the horse has to be bringing something to the party.  I will not be kicked or bitten going about my daily business. That is NOT on.  Horses can express their displeasure and I will do my best to listen but they don't get to get my attention by hurting me.  (If I'm dumb enough to put myself in danger, that's another issue - it's not the horse's job to keep me safe.)

Re unpredictability, it is almost always a sign of pain.  It is just not in horses to behave in random ways.  It is certainly possible to MISS the patterns but that's not the same thing and even in pain responses there is usually a link, it just may be very subtle.  I rode one horse that panicked if he had to turn hard left at speed, especially if you didn't let him do his coping mechanism of curling right at the same time.  It hardly ever came up so it looked very random when it did.  Was he dangerous? I'd say yes, as they couldn't find out why he reacted that way and there is no way to guarantee it won't come up.

Re good breeding etc.  Meh, the world is full of well bred horses.  Popular stallions produce literally hundreds of offspring.  Big studbooks produce thousands of horses a year.  If the horses was REALLY good it would still be entire and/or in a breeding program.  And if you've got a really royal one for no money, consider yourself forewarned.  Big breeders do a lot of experimenting - the really scary mistakes probably don't stick around long enough to be backed but just being a Hanovarian or similar is no guarantee of anything.

Re pros, some do ride tricky horses IF whatever makes them tricky is manageable and doesn't affect performance. And it depends where the pro is - it's generally agreed when you're starting you're not always going to get the nice easy ones but if you're doing it as a business then you have to be realistic.  Yes, there are stories of the difficult horses that have made people's careers but I'd bet there are legions more where it's actually gone the other way and you don't hear those stories.  

There are horses that need the time and individual attention big pro yards can't always give.  I had one of those.  And I couldn't always ride him but that's because he was too good, not because he was bad.  And when I did get my personal act together, he won.  

As I've got older I've got less tolerant and much less inclined to bang square pegs into round holes (or try to teach pigs to sing) just to satisfy my pride.  Not just because I don't want to get hurt - although I'm not keen on it, the risk goes with the territory - but because I've seen so many such situations over the long term now, I'm better at judging what's worth it and what's not.  And I've "fixed" horses sometimes only to find out in the end I did them no favours and arguably made their lives worse in the long run.  

Hmm, not really an answer.  Basically . . . .it depends. I meet lots of horses people are in despair over and yet they seem very fixable - or at least easily and safely manageable - to me.  And others people are very cheery about horses that I would not ever want for my own.  So often it's an individual situation, too - I will often say to people it's worth trying if you can do/expect/live with xyz but not if you can't.  So one person's dangerous might be another person's somewhat inconvenient.


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## BombayMix (13 February 2012)

See, I don't ever get the impression a pro will put up with a dangerous horse. I think they will put up with a quirky horse if they think it has the ability to a) do well and b) they are able to sort it out. IMO a pro can not put themself through the danger of riding a dangerous horse - if they get injured it is their whole business ruined until they are able to get back in action (if properly).

Myself I carried on with a horse who I probably would class as dangerous...when I look back on it now I have mixed feelings. In one way I did put myself in danger as he did go over twice with me (he was a compulsive rearer) and we did spend a lot of time doing a LOT of rearing and then leaping through the air and bucking in mid air. Not fun. But although we had a LOT of horrendous times with him (like him burying me head and neck first into a XC jump) but I am glad we carried on with him because we did discover after a long time that his problems stemmed from too much pressure being put on him. 

It sounds stupid that it took so long but the thing with him was at home he would jump 1m30-1m40 tracks (only 15hh) but he just would NOT do it at shows (I'm talking 60cms) so it was hard to know if he was being naughty - but he was SO lovely at home both ridden and on the ground we just couldn't give up him.

As I said, in hindsight he WAS dangerous but we stopped competing him completely and he went to a loan home where he lives with a yummy mummy who does the occasional dressage test with him and he spends his whole time hacking out, nannying the ponies and munching away in his field. He has NEVER been a problem again, I can truly say though to see him as happy as he is now makes the injuries worthwhile...but mentally (more so than physically) I don't think I would be able to do it all again


ETA we have recently discovered what we are pretty sure was a cause to a lot of his problems and basically his brains had been blown and it was all a matter of him being a ticking time bomb waiting to explode


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## stencilface (13 February 2012)

Line gets drawn very quickly!  I have no time for a horse I am not going to enjoy, and I need a horse to be able to enjoy its work/play with me too. Mine can be a complete arse with the best of them, but he has no malice in his body, and his 'displays of character' are always either due to excitement, genuine fear, or just being a pita.

I did have a pita horse when I was a teen, looking back I should have done so many things differently, and I still feel guilty and sorry for him that I didn't do more


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## kerilli (13 February 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			That said, I'm amazed what some people put up with! I'm the patron saint of lost causes but even I feel that the horse has to be bringing something to the party.  I will not be kicked or bitten going about my daily business. That is NOT on.  Horses can express their displeasure and I will do my best to listen but they don't get to get my attention by hurting me.  (If I'm dumb enough to put myself in danger, that's another issue - it's not the horse's job to keep me safe.)
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This, absolutely. I can't believe the people who put up with a horse that bites and kicks as standard behaviour - every time it's tacked up, say. That is NOT normal, it's an 'anticipation of pain' response - ignore at your peril. Laughing it off = shortcut to disaster (and I've seen people laughing about dodging teeth and hooves... jeeez.)
I expect my horses to be SAINTLY around the yard etc, because I have non-horsey people around, frequently, and I cannot risk them... even my foal is saintly, because she learnt very very quickly that certain behaviours (anything to do with hooves and teeth) are totally unacceptable!

The point about Pros is a good one. A friend had a mega-talented but very tricksy horse which she sent to a Pro - he didn't think it did anything particularly difficult! They'll cope with difficult-but-trainable-if-you're-firm (and secure), what they won't put up with (unless they're desperate for rides) is impossible and unpredictable, however talented it looks.


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## Saratoga (13 February 2012)

For me it totally depends on the reason for the behaviour, and if it's malicious or not. I can put up with being dumped, I can put up with bad behaviour on the ground, I can put up with all kinds of behaviour and have done on numerous horses in the past, but I won't put up with a horse that is intentionally trying to hurt you or itself just out of nastiness, rather than fear/pain/learned behaviour.

Saying that I don't think there are many horses out there that are just pure nasty. Most of my good horses have all come to me as being dangerous and only good for a bullet. There's not one that I haven't been able to find the key to eventually, or had to give up on. But I'm sure I'll meet one one day!!


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## Goldenstar (13 February 2012)

kerilli said:



			This, absolutely. I can't believe the people who put up with a horse that bites and kicks as standard behaviour - every time it's tacked up, say. That is NOT normal, it's an 'anticipation of pain' response - ignore at your peril. Laughing it off = shortcut to disaster (and I've seen people laughing about dodging teeth and hooves... jeeez.)
I expect my horses to be SAINTLY around the yard etc, because I have non-horsey people around, frequently, and I cannot risk them... even my foal is saintly, because she learnt very very quickly that certain behaviours (anything to do with hooves and teeth) are totally unacceptable!

The point about Pros is a good one. A friend had a mega-talented but very tricksy horse which she sent to a Pro - he didn't think it did anything particularly difficult! They'll cope with difficult-but-trainable-if-you're-firm (and secure), what they won't put up with (unless they're desperate for rides) is impossible and unpredictable, however talented it looks.
		
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I totally aggree with your point about nasty on the yard that I would not put up with ever. I have a friend whose TB is a monster to look after it attacks her in the field when she tries to catch it  it bites her all the time kicks I could go on I would kill it ( in fact I would PTS if it where mine ) its retired now it's got very nasty foot trouble I think that's is at the bottom of all this nastiness ( it was nasty when it was sound  though ) 
I can't see what any one is getting out of it .


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## BombayMix (13 February 2012)

kerilli said:



			This, absolutely. I can't believe the people who put up with a horse that bites and kicks as standard behaviour - every time it's tacked up, say. That is NOT normal, it's an 'anticipation of pain' response - ignore at your peril. Laughing it off = shortcut to disaster (and I've seen people laughing about dodging teeth and hooves... jeeez.)
I expect my horses to be SAINTLY around the yard etc, because I have non-horsey people around, frequently, and I cannot risk them... even my foal is saintly, because she learnt very very quickly that certain behaviours (anything to do with hooves and teeth) are totally unacceptable!
		
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This - I can not stand a horse that is bad on the ground AT ALL. 

We used to have a mare who was not in pain (we had everything checked) but her mum was an absolute cow and she seemed to pick up on it too and was horrible from day dot. To tack her up she had to be hobbled and wore a muzzle - one time she got my mum in the corner of the stable and tried her best to kick the **** out of mum - mum saved herself buy protecting herself with the saddle (broke the saddle but thank god it wasn't a person). Strangely enough once ridden she was perfect but we sent her off to be a broodmare (rightly or wrongly) and actually she turned out to be so much nicer once she had her first baby!


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## TarrSteps (13 February 2012)

^ A horse's upbringing can count for much more than people usually assume, I think.  It's interesting to know families of horses (not just siblings but cousins and the like) and see the patterns that emerge.  I knew a mare who was brutal to her kids and they all grew up nervy and inclined to panic, although others from the same farm and stallion were not.  Nature or nurture?

Re checking everything out . . . It really is no guarantee and I actually think it's got worse now because there are so many things we can check, we tend to assume we've looked under every rock.  I've known so many horses vets pronounced were fine only to have something turn up later.  Even recently a vet told someone I know her horse was DEFINITELY a behavioural problem and lo and behold, it turns out to have a significant bilateral lameness. Sometimes you have to trust your instincts.

This is not to bash vets or science, quite the opposite.  They both have perfectly understandable limitations and to expect them somehow to be perfect, future predicting marvels is unfair.  Vets can tell you what they find but they cannot tell you what they don't find.

By the same token, I've known horses writtin off that returned to some sort of working life, perhaps with limitations but comfortable none the less.  There is no shame in getting it wrong sometimes!


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## kerilli (13 February 2012)

Ugh. How terrifying for your mum, lucky escape. 
I was skipping out at a yard once (i was there for training) and a mare attacked me (her owner has just pulled her entire mane and tail, as the mare stood cold in the stable, and apparently the next person into the stable always 'got it', nobody told me!), luckily her first shot missed (although i got a mouthful of shavings out of her back feet as i leapt back, she was THAT close but luckily i moved very fast back then!) and i managed to keep her off me with the shavings fork, like a flipping lion tamer, as i edged back to the door...
that cemented it in my mind, i NEVER want a horse to have that attitude to me again. i won't have a downright nasty horse around. there is always a reason, but if they are that evil, i don't want to risk being maimed or killed as i try to work out why...
as for horses that try to jump on you if you are on the floor, or who kick you in midair as you fall off them (i've heard of this twice now) - bullet. no question.


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## Lolo (13 February 2012)

kerilli said:



			as for horses that try to jump on you if you are on the floor, or who kick you in midair as you fall off them (i've heard of this twice now) - bullet. no question.
		
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That was it for us. This little mare was going for her once Al hit the ground and no horse is worth your safety. It was scary as she was doing massive twisty bucks and then pouncing. She's since been out of work completely as no one will touch her (the owner is not entirely impressed by this...) as they saw her in action. Pity as the mare was stunning- if you wanted the perfect looking little horse for a young rider, she was it in looks. 

Interestingly, we have had other ponies who were also prone to telling you with their teeth but have dealt with it. One pony drew blood from mum as she happened to be standing near her when she was being girthed- she lunged, and mum was in the way. But she always did it and generally we stayed well away from her head and made sure others did too... That we could put up with as it was manageable and we did't tend to have non-horsey people near her without close supervision.


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## kerilli (13 February 2012)

Lolo said:



			That was it for us. This little mare was going for her once Al hit the ground and no horse is worth your safety. It was scary as she was doing massive twisty bucks and then pouncing. She's since been out of work completely as no one will touch her (the owner is not entirely impressed by this...) as they saw her in action. Pity as the mare was stunning- if you wanted the perfect looking little horse for a young rider, she was it in looks. 

Interestingly, we have had other ponies who were also prone to telling you with their teeth but have dealt with it. One pony drew blood from mum as she happened to be standing near her when she was being girthed- she lunged, and mum was in the way. But she always did it and generally we stayed well away from her head and made sure others did too... That we could put up with as it was manageable and we did't tend to have non-horsey people near her without close supervision.
		
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Ugh to the first one. I hope someone naive doesn't come along and have a go with that one...  
The thing about the 'telling you with their teeth' though - this just isn't 'normal' behaviour for a horse. it may be habitual for THAT horse, but only because, imho, it always hurts them, or they remember that it always hurts them so react defensively against it, before it does.. i've seen horses like this be treated (muscles around girth area gentle massaged and released etc), and/or a different saddle or girth used, and then the bitey behaviour totally ceases. Ignoring or cleverly evading the teeth doesn't cure the problem for the horse, iyswim...


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## Lolo (13 February 2012)

kerilli said:



			Ugh to the first one. I hope someone naive doesn't come along and have a go with that one...  
The thing about the 'telling you with their teeth' though - this just isn't 'normal' behaviour for a horse. it may be habitual for THAT horse, but only because, imho, it always hurts them, or they remember that it always hurts them so react defensively against it, before it does.. i've seen horses like this be treated (muscles around girth area gentle massaged and released etc), and/or a different saddle or girth used, and then the bitey behaviour totally ceases. Ignoring or cleverly evading the teeth doesn't cure the problem for the horse, iyswim...
		
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No, and I totally agree- she did it because it hurt her and then became a habit. The trouble was, she had regular back checks and several vet checks but always trotted up sound and appeared to be happy in herself. Only when she was x-rayed with I think some dye of some form injected did it show she had sustained a previous injury to her withers which explained her behaviour- no longer hurt, but it had done a lot in the past.

ETA- same. Tellingly, owner won't put her own daughter on it. Luckily, where we live is a small place so news gets round fast about horses!


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## Goldenstar (13 February 2012)

It's just such a difficult area the horse I was thinking of in my earlier posts was a Master Imp and was quirky and sharp but the mad broncing was a an other place to his ' normal ' quirkiness that's why it took us so long to get to the bottom of it.
I never judge people who are in similar situations because I know now how hard it can be to get to the bottom of things.


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## Festive_Felicitations (13 February 2012)

What Tarrsteps & Kerilli said!

I have only met one horse who I think was truely nasty with no pain casue. I'm sure I've told this story before so feel free to skip if it sounds familiar 
I was breaking in a bunch of 3yr olds all brought up together so similar handling etc and they all had a few hang ups - but basically no trust in people. But this one mare from the first moment I met her I got an bad feeling off her - this was looking at them all in a yard together.

To handle you had to be 100% on the ball with her as she'd take any opportunity to kick or bite if you gave her a chance. From the first time I sat on her I knew it was a matter of time till she had dumped me. 
You could feel the resentment and dislike radiating off her. 
I tried to be extra nice to her - spending extra time with her, giving her treats, didn't push her as much etc reasoning it might be a trust issue like the others. Made no difference at all.

When she did dump me it was deliberate and out of the blue.
I'd done my usual lunge before hopping on and all was calm and chilled. I hopped on she stood quietly and relaxed, then when I asked her to walk off took 3 steps and just launched into a serious rodeo display with no warning and ejected me forcibly into the sand.
I refused to ride her after that. She tried the same out of the blue approach with the next rider I left shortly after and am not sure what happened to her but did learn that her mum was known for being an evil cow...

ETS just seen your post about familes Tarrsteps! As I said her mum was a cow but she had an elder 1/2 sister (same dam different sire) who apparently was very sweet


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## kirstyhen (13 February 2012)

Mally is a biter and a kicker. Not to the extent of being dangerous IMO, but if you hurt her once, she doesn't forget and then she is always defensive. She had mud fever on her back legs when I bought her, so getting near them was a challenge and now even with it completely cleared up, if I'm in a rush and try to hurry doing back boots/studs/hoof oil/etc then she will get stressy and kick out. She isn't half as bad as she used to be and it's more of a wave of a leg than a kick these days, but it will always be her 'go to' move.
Same with her rugs and girth - her rug rubbed her shoulders once, and now doing up the front straps cause her to pull faces and threaten to bite; her girth rubbed her elbows out hunting and now doing it up causes lots of teeth gnashing. I have changed her girths, put bibs on her and the cause of the pain is no longer there, but she doesn't forget!
She requires tactful handling a lot of the time, telling her off is a sure fire way to stress her out and send her off the deep end, but in general she is a donkey to handle; to lead around I don't think I've ever had such a polite horse. And she more than makes up for it under saddle, so I guess I tolerate the 'quirks' because to me they have very little bearing on her as a horse in general. I also don't see her as dangerous, she is a horse I would trust with my life.


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## Firewell (13 February 2012)

Umm I wouldn't go very far i'm afraid. I'm too muich of a self preservationist!!

I think there are lots of beautiful, talented horses out there that would easily do what I want to do and most of them aren't nutters, if I wanted to go to the olympics or something then maybe it would be a different matter!!

I wouldn't ride anything that didn't have sensibility. Saying that i'm happy with green, sensitive, slightly quirky horses as long as they are good hearted, willing and underneath it all want to work with me. My horse now can be a bit sharp but he's just a young switched on TB, as was my last horse but nothing bad, just what is normal. I wouldn't ride anything that frequently dumped me!

I think though that the horses i've always had have been blank canvases that have been easy to bring on into good horses or older esablished ones that came from decent homes and have never been mistreated or poorly trained.

Iv'e never had to unwravel too much. I just wouldn't want something with serious problems to unwravel no matter what it looked like.

I've never really known any horse to be truely nutty or dangerous apart from one and I think she had deep seated physical and psycological issues, shes a field ornament now I believe as really no-one could work with her.

Every other horse that iv'e come across has been pretty normal, maybe the odd moment of naughty behaviour but thats it. 

If they have become a bit much something has always found out to be wrong. My mums old horse started bucking, big ones. We knew something was wrong as even though she was also a switched on TB that is just not normal behaviour for a horse so well trained and loved like her. In the end she had terrible kissing spines bless her, it was a miracle she let anyone on board at all, let alone try and work. Shes a broodmare now and a bautiful one at that  (vet said she was 100% to breed from and she had fantastic breeding, temp and confo).


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## kerilli (13 February 2012)

kirstyhen said:



			Mally is a biter and a kicker. Not to the extent of being dangerous IMO, but if you hurt her once, she doesn't forget and then she is always defensive. She had mud fever on her back legs when I bought her, so getting near them was a challenge and now even with it completely cleared up, if I'm in a rush and try to hurry doing back boots/studs/hoof oil/etc then she will get stressy and kick out. She isn't half as bad as she used to be and it's more of a wave of a leg than a kick these days, but it will always be her 'go to' move.
Same with her rugs and girth - her rug rubbed her shoulders once, and now doing up the front straps cause her to pull faces and threaten to bite; her girth rubbed her elbows out hunting and now doing it up causes lots of teeth gnashing. I have changed her girths, put bibs on her and the cause of the pain is no longer there, but she doesn't forget!
She requires tactful handling a lot of the time, telling her off is a sure fire way to stress her out and send her off the deep end, but in general she is a donkey to handle; to lead around I don't think I've ever had such a polite horse. And she more than makes up for it under saddle, so I guess I tolerate the 'quirks' because to me they have very little bearing on her as a horse in general. I also don't see her as dangerous, she is a horse I would trust with my life.
		
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I think it's very different if it is definitely just 'warning off' behaviour (face pulling etc), i've had a horse gnash its teeth at me and catch my jacket by mistake, and it was incredibly shocked, I didn't even need to move a hand towards it, it knew it had gone way too far and couldn't have been more apologetic and nice after that!
i ignore the face pulling once i'm sure that's all it is, although i'll try to get to the bottom of it if possible.
having been bitten properly by a horse once (someone else's youngster, i was leaning over the gate chatting to her and it suddenly snaked its head out and bit me,  for no reason, hard enough to really draw blood, hence my subsequent Sense of Humour Failure about bitey youngsters!), i'm not tolerant of biters at all. i knew of a hunt groom who got her humerus fractured by a bite.   
my grey had sarcoids from the day I bought her and I often had to tend to them (and sometimes hurt her, unfortunately), getting them out, slathering them with various potions to get rid etc. she pulled lots of faces but she NEVER bit me, and I had her for yonks, including super-fit (and a lot of good-natured horses will get more antsy and threateny-bitey when super-fit). she kicked me once (post-xc, she was still a bit wired, and i went to put on her tail bandage) and i went Ape, she never did that again, ever!  i think they're like kids in that respect, if they know the consequences, they won't do it... (goes straight to hell, obv.)


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## kirstyhen (13 February 2012)

I was bitten on the arse  by a horse a few weeks ago, it bled though my jods  Sodding thing is apparently misunderstood, but I had my back to it, it came up behind me and properly sunk it's teeth in! Can't say I would have taken it home with me after that!!


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## kerilli (13 February 2012)

kirstyhen said:



			I was bitten on the arse  by a horse a few weeks ago, it bled though my jods  Sodding thing is apparently misunderstood, but I had my back to it, it came up behind me and properly sunk it's teeth in! Can't say I would have taken it home with me after that!! 

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holy ****, ouch, "misunderstood'... jeez, its nose would have been disconnected from its head if that had been me.
imho there's NEVER NEVER any excuse at all for a horse biting or kicking someone who isn't doing something to it. never. self-defence mechanism is one thing, blatant aggression is another. ouch, poor you.


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## Orangehorse (13 February 2012)

There is a lot of sensible advice, esp. Kerilli and Tarr Steps.

For riding, the worst would be no self preservation.  Dangerous does not have to mean agressive.  Friend said he put his point to pointer at a timber fence, horse caught his leg and fell, so he got back on and he did it again.  I don't think I would be jumping that!

I had a grumpy mare who would pull faces and she manged to kick me once.  She got a lot better with time and I found that she had been the survivor of twins, so probably had a lot of veterinary attention when little.  She would weave a bit too, but she was fabulous to ride.

The very worst must be a horse that gets rid of the rider and then kicks them, deliberately.  There is a big difference between falling off and horse and one getting rid of the rider.  Or something that can't be controlled.

There may be well and good reasons why these things happened, but it doesn't always mean that they can be solved.


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## kerilli (13 February 2012)

Orangehorse said:



			For riding, the worst would be no self preservation.  Dangerous does not have to mean agressive.  Friend said he put his point to pointer at a timber fence, horse caught his leg and fell, so he got back on and he did it again.  I don't think I would be jumping that!
		
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it's funny, i never even thought of 'dangerous' in that context, but of course. i've given up the ride on two different horses because they did NOT learn from their mistakes xc, in fact they did exactly the same horrible error a second time (each time to a simple, smallish fence where I know I got a good approach etc and gave them every opportunity to do it right) and nearly bit the dirt again.
for xc horses, my absolute PET hate, and i'll never ride one who does this, is one that chooses to ignore the rider and makes a bid for the fence (okay... they're his legs and body, i'll trust his judgement over the rider's even if it's me on top, loose horses seldom fall etc etc) but _then_ changes his mind at the last stride and adds one into the bottom of the fence. then compounds that horrendous error of judgement by leaving his knees down and wearing the fence on the way up. 
ugh. this sort of horse makes my blood run cold. i've seen it quite a few times, sat on it twice (see above) it's a devil of a habit to get out of because it's based on basic mistrust (not trusting the rider's judgement, then not trusting its own judgement or athleticism either) and it's a rotational waiting to happen... i'd rather the chuffing thing bottled it, at least then you're safely on the take-off side of the fence, embarrassed but not squashed!
this sort of horse needs to be gracefully retired to the dressage, hacking or sj spheres asap!


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## Goldenstar (13 February 2012)

Yes perhaps the most dangerous type of horse is a kind easy one with no sense ot the importance of lifting it's legs out of the way of a fence .


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## Lanky Loll (13 February 2012)

Definitely when they're a danger to you and others - but it is difficult sometimes to call it a day.
I had the ride on a lovely grey 5yo - looked like a rocking horse and jumped like a stag, but when something in his brain blipped he'd just go.  He did it once at home - over barbed wire and hedges, stopped (thankfully) by the railway line and we thought it was a one off.  Then he did it at a hunter trial and jumped a car.  Got sent straight back to his owner and as far as I know lived out his life on a Welsh hillside - we never really found out what was wrong with him.
My brother had to give up on two horses:
One would just bob off with anyone at the drop of a hat, or stand rearing (at 17hh a bit too big to mess about with), and he got asked not to bring him back to one centre, all the usual checks etc done - he ended up going back to the dealer he came from.
The other was a chestnut mare  who he tried and was fantastic, then when we went to pick her up from a show they didn't turn up as they had a flat tyre - odd  but whatever, met them the following week and brought her home.  First few times out absolutely fine, but then she started - absolutely kicking seven bales out of the lorry.  She was never travelled alone and there was never an obvious cause, but she'd start from pulling out the drive.  I travelled in the back one day and held her head to the roof which just about kept her back feet on the ground but wasn't ideal.  We tried hobbling her, travelling her loose, backwards, in a trailer - whatever, she was just dangerous - they'd had a flat delivering her because she'd bounced the lorry so hard she burst the tyre - as we found out the hardway when she did it to ours  on another occasion she put a hole in the roof of the lorry   All this with another horse stood (somehow - bless him) perfectly calmly next to her.  Because she was such a cow to travel we rang the local "meat man" I'm afraid and he came and took her away in his metal sided cattle lorry.
We've had a few that are funny on the ground - my 14.2 was a great example as people who didn't know him were petrified of him, but it was all show and if you just said boo to him he'd back off.  Mags was always a bit of a witch - would wave her back feet at you when harnessing up but a slap on the bum to remind her who was there put paid to any attempt to actually do anything with the foot.  
It's all in knowing what you are dealing with I think.


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## TarrSteps (13 February 2012)

Interesting re horses hanging their knees - I was taught to fear it like the plague, especially when combined with a lack of carefullness but everyone here thinks I'm being silly. 

I saw a horse at an auction once that messed up the grid, went right back around and messed up in exactly the same way again . . .and again. The next day a show jumper bought her - not having seen her jump - and despite the fact they paid lots of money we never saw her in the ring.  Interestingly, same sire as the GSCH, who jumps like a wheelbarrow as a friend of mine put it, and a horse I know now going the equivalent of Novice who does a lovely test but rarely leaves the poles up and has fallen twice!  The rider is a good pro, ridden at 4*, but tends to ride pretty average horses so maybe it doesn't seem that scary to her.  The sire is known for producing good dressage horses and bad jumpers . . ..

I rode a Burrgraff filly who really taught me a lesson doing grids. First time she made one mistake, second time another, then third foot perfect and never made those two mistakes again.  She jumped in great form but was not one of those freaky ones that jump the standards to get out of trouble and, if she had a rail, she didn't panic, she just fixed the mistake so long as I let her.  I want a barn full of those!


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## TarrSteps (13 February 2012)

On the other side of the coin though, re the original discussion, I knew a stallion who used to chuck himself backwards into walls.  I could kind of ride him but it wasn't fun and is small lady owner didn't even want to get on him.  After me she got a big cowboy/dressage rider and when the horse did it to him he turned his dressage whip over and PASTED the horse! Both sides, a couple of really shattering whacks and then belted him forward and pounded him for so much as a backward thought. The horse never did it again, went off to the shows etc.

Now I would not recommend that nor would I likely do it myself, at least not like that.  It could have ended very badly.  But it worked.  What can you say? 

To add though . . .the horse did one season then his hocks went completely halfway though the next. . .  .


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## marmalade76 (13 February 2012)

kerilli said:



			imho there's NEVER NEVER any excuse at all for a horse biting or kicking someone who isn't doing something to it. never. self-defence mechanism is one thing, blatant aggression is another. ouch, poor you.
		
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When I was at college there was a stallion there (why he was kept entire I'll never know, he was vile - nasty, lazy, no good at anything - he belonged to a pair of little old ladies) who used to hide just inside the stable door so you couldn't see him as you walked along the block, he'd then dive out and bite you as you walked past. He did it to me, I never even saw him, just felt a dreadful pain in my arm! He must have done it to the chief instructor too 'cause I once saw him flat against the wall outside his stable with a headcollar in hand swiping at the horse every time he poked his nose out!

There were six stallions on that yard at one time and that one was the only nasty (and useless) one.


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## MandyMoo (13 February 2012)

Laafet said:



			In the end, he had broken my toes numerous times, given me whip lash and destroyed my confidence to the point where I almost gave up horses all together. He was massively talented but had not go the right mentality for competing which was the most frustrating aspect of it all. The rearing and napping were the worst I have ever encountered and he was prone to explosions of broncing for no apparent reason, he had had every vet check, saddle etc done and was not in pain.
		
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i had a similar situation with the bay in my signature. over 2 years of trying to showjump him, only about 1 out of 10 days was a good day. he's nap/rear/refuse/throw me off/kick me when i was down. luckily didn't seriously injure me, but i fell off a lot, got plenty of bruises/cuts/sprained fingers etc, but the worst thing is he destroyed my confidence to the point i nearly gave up aswell!! (luckily i didn't and  am currently looking for a new horse with my mum). i used to jump 1m30 no problem, now 80cm scares me...

he had so much talent, but like yours, just didn't have the mentality for showjumping. his previous owner had overjumped him/scared him i have been told by people who knew her, and he had several confidence crisises and wouldn't even canter over a pole at a few stages!!

he is now a dressage horse for my mum and loves it - much happier/more relaxed horse.



personally, i have learnt from this experience, and if i ever had the same siuation again, i wouldn't waste years on it like i did with Bugsy - i'd sell to someone more experienced with more confidence... and get another one to enjoy - as after all, being an amateur who does it for fun, i need to enjoy it all!!!


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## BronsonNutter (13 February 2012)

It depends why it's 'dangerous' imo!

If it feels like it's genuinely scared (as my gut instinct told me was the case with one horse) then I'd persevere and take things very slowly, never pushing too much too soon. Unfortunately owner had other ideas about how she should be ridden and what she should be doing, so after four falls, a broken nose and a bad argument I gave up. If she'd been mine I would have continued as I genuinely don't think she meant it (in no pressure situations she was fine!) but I wasn't risking my neck for someone else's ideas 

If it feels like a pain response then I'd try to get to the bottom of that too.

If it just does it for the hell of it (habit, whatever) then I honestly wouldn't know. I don't know if I'd have it in me to shoot it (if it was otherwise happy/healthy) but I certainly don't think I'd be trying to ride it and would have as little as possible to do with it...

Some people might have said Bronts was dangerous (and he probably was - especially on the ground) - but he had his certain triggers so as long as you avoided certain things he was fine. Also, he never lost his head about stuff - so to me he was 'safe' but to someone who didn't know him and his ways he would have been dangerous.


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## g&tanyone? (13 February 2012)

When you get that gut feeling- then you know something's got to give.


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## kerilli (13 February 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			When I was at college there was a stallion there (why he was kept entire I'll never know, he was vile - nasty, lazy, no good at anything - he belonged to a pair of little old ladies) who used to hide just inside the stable door so you couldn't see him as you walked along the block, he'd then dive out and bite you as you walked past. He did it to me, I never even saw him, just felt a dreadful pain in my arm! He must have done it to the chief instructor too 'cause I once saw him flat against the wall outside his stable with a headcollar in hand swiping at the horse every time he poked his nose out!

There were six stallions on that yard at one time and that one was the only nasty (and useless) one.
		
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Jeeez. Bullet. no question. That is downright nasty, and what on earth is the point of a nasty useless horse? 
And as for it being at a college... words fail me.
I remember years ago a vet student friend of mine asking if he could come and handle my horses a bit, after he'd seen how nice they all were, because all the ones they practised on at college were evil (too used to clueless students maybe, or being stuck with needles??) and all the students were frightened of them...


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## TarrSteps (13 February 2012)

But then we had a horse at one point that used to lunge at people over the door and once picked me up and shook me like a rat.  He turned out to have a rare necrotising kidney disease and must have been in extraordinary pain.  But he jumped 1.30+ classes with a kid on him and was only diagnosed at 12 after he took a sudden turn for the worse and was put down afterl all the obvious treatments failed.

And the horse that took a chunk out of my arm had a brain tumour.

Although the one that grabbed me by the neck was just an evil ******* from a line of evil bastards. 

You really cannot generalise a cause from behaviour and not all individuals react to the same stimuli with the same behaviours.  I will say though one of my "red lights" is HOW a horse reacts to stress.  Lots of horses are great when there is no pressure - aren't we all? - but how do you make sure of that? It is usually possible to help a horse learn to deal with pressure more effectively but if it's only an overlay it will find you out when you can least afford it.

It also depends what the horse considers pressure.  Jumping big fences for a horse bred for that job may actually release pressure and NOT having that outlet might cause the problems.  

I do think a lot of the time - no offence - people congratulate themselves for putting up with dangerous behaviour (by which I mean behaviour that can get someone hurt, whether the horse means it or not) when it's really their fault the horse is behaving that way in the first place.  We had the whole thread on here about the girl "taming her dangerous horse" when it really was a case of a very young, athletic, bred to jump in the air, confused horse doing what athletic, bred to jump in the air horses do when they are confused, scared and not channelled properly.  Posters were quick to "explain" his behaviour by what horrible things must have happened, presumably before he was "rescued" from a sport horse auction.  Not because he was in a strange country with a kid who was getting bad advice. Now he is a recovered dangerous horse, saved by love.  When more than likely they both grew up a bit, he learned what was wanted and she learned what he needed.  Admirable but not magical.


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## Taffyhorse (13 February 2012)

I think 'dangerous' is an interesting point in itself - what might be dangerous for one person may not be for another as in experience and manner of the person, what the horse is used for etc etc.

I've come across three that I would consider dangerous in different forms. 

One was a black gelding about 15hh covered in scars - he came from a dealer for use in a riding school (!) and we were told he was a 'bit funny' at feed time. My friend who ran the RS was going round topping up waters after evening feed and he launched at her across the stable and latched onto her boob! The only reason she got away was because we had a long hose with a tap on the end and she whacked him with that and he let go giving her time to get out of the door. He was lethal with his teeth, front and back legs. He wore a headcollar at all times, was muzzled when outside his stable (and not being ridden), had a grill as his top door on the stable to stop him lunging at people, only a couple of people dealt with him and you NEVER went into his stable. We used to call him to the door with a treat, clip on his leadrope and put his muzzle on. Unsurprisingly we didn't keep him for long as the risk in a riding school (with kids etc) was just too great. He was a saint to ride, it was just in his box when you really had to watch him - he was generally better outside it. I suspect he probably had been battered in his box and his attitude was almost 'I'll get you before you get me' kind of thing (although I'm anthromorphosising here). Not sure what happened to him - always felt a bit sad about him as I can't imagine he had a happy life. 

The other one was when I worked in a showing/dealing yard - a blue/cream cob mare. Pretty as a picture to look at and easy to handle but what a witch when you were on board!! Would be fine one minute and just flip the next! V nappy when she wanted to be, jumped over the back of a sports car with me over a disagreement about direction and could stand absolutely bolt upright - she never went over, she was too clever for that but she could (and would!) go on for hours. After several near death experiences with me and the other two grooms even the dealer finally admitted she wasn't safe and could never be sold. Not sure what happened to her either - dealer wasn't the type to spend money investigating and she disappeared out of the yard - I suspect to the knackers which in fairness was probably the best place for her. I found her more frightening than the horse described above as she just seemed so calculating and knew exactly what she was doing. 

The last one was a chestnut ISH also bought by above dealer. It backflipped twice with one of the other grooms (luckily they weren't hurt) and it was decided we should lunge him. A bit 'funny' on the ground but generally ok - until it came to any kind of work. On the lunge he went straight through the school fence twice and would backflip on the lunge. He backflipped in the paddock one day when we were lungeing him and severed his spinal cord. I'll never forget that - it sounded like a water melon hitting concrete and was horrible to see the horse so distressed before the vet came to PTS. An autopsy showed he had a brain tumour. 

Have also met a couple that were deemed 'dangerous' but were just thoroughly spoilt and had no boundaries or discipline!


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## kerilli (13 February 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			I do think a lot of the time - no offence - people congratulate themselves for putting up with dangerous behaviour (by which I mean behaviour that can get someone hurt, whether the horse means it or not) when it's really their fault the horse is behaving that way in the first place.  We had the whole thread on here about the girl "taming her dangerous horse" when it really was a case of a very young, athletic, bred to jump in the air, confused horse doing what athletic, bred to jump in the air horses do when they are confused, scared and not channelled properly.  Posters were quick to "explain" his behaviour by what horrible things must have happened, presumably before he was "rescued" from a sport horse auction.  Not because he was in a strange country with a kid who was getting bad advice. Now he is a recovered dangerous horse, saved by love.  When more than likely they both grew up a bit, he learned what was wanted and she learned what he needed.  Admirable but not magical.
		
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Yes, that one did drive me a bit crackers, must admit!  

But let's not let this interesting thread wander off into the dodgy territory of 'riders who think that because their horse is behaving like a **** it makes them exceptionally good, brave, whatever' - no, if they were really that good, it'd be doing its job, nicely!


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## mystiandsunny (13 February 2012)

Surely though, the thread is about how long you persevere with something that is dangerous to you, and which isn't improving with the best help you can afford?  I wouldn't persevere very long I have to admit.  I have others who need me in one piece, and a husband who'd have serious issues with me riding something that put me in danger. 

I'd send it away for schooling if I really liked it and it checked out physically, then probably sell it if it was beyond my ability to ride.  If there was something physically wrong: treat, turn away and see from there. 

I find the 'jobs' argument interesting.  I have a highly bred dressage youngster who finds the whole dressage idea (of being in an outline and relaxed at all times, not able to raise head and look around in strange places) far too stressful.  On the other hand, she loves to jump and couldn't care less about fillers or spooky venues if she's allowed to be a little looky and put her head up when she feels she needs to.  I also have a TB who jumps very nicely at home, obviously enjoying herself, but can't cope with fillers (despite endless de-sensitizing) when out and about.  She likes competing at dressage though - finds it very relaxing and does very well!


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## Goldenstar (13 February 2012)

mystiandsunny said:



			Surely though, the thread is about how long you persevere with something that is dangerous to you, and which isn't improving with the best help you can afford?  I wouldn't persevere very long I have to admit.  I have others who need me in one piece, and a husband who'd have serious issues with me riding something that put me in danger. 

I'd send it away for schooling if I really liked it and it checked out physically, then probably sell it if it was beyond my ability to ride.  If there was something physically wrong: treat, turn away and see from there. 

I find the 'jobs' argument interesting.  I have a highly bred dressage youngster who finds the whole dressage idea (of being in an outline and relaxed at all times, not able to raise head and look around in strange places) far too stressful.  On the other hand, she loves to jump and couldn't care less about fillers or spooky venues if she's allowed to be a little looky and put her head up when she feels she needs to.  I also have a TB who jumps very nicely at home, obviously enjoying herself, but can't cope with fillers (despite endless de-sensitizing) when out and about.  She likes competing at dressage though - finds it very relaxing and does very well!
		
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Yes the right job can be a complete new start for a dangerous horse I bought one to drive ( horse driving trails ) he had failed to settle in a team  and I was looking long story but I bought him .
He never did anything awful but was generally unsettled would not walk in the carriage and gave me a generally flaky feeling I could not ride at this time due to a horrible accident but as I recovered and could get on again the idea formed in my head to back him ( he knew how to be sat on but was not really broken to ride) 
We rebacked him ( friends thought I was nuts) and although he's still a high octane ride very forward and senestive he's a sweety I have great fun with him I train him for the dressage but have never completed him although I may at some point it's two years in April  that I stared him and I had so much fun and satisfaction seeing him change and gain confidence in a job that suits him. He was ten when I backed him so he definatly on the slow track training wise but he's happy and safe and I enjoy him so it does not matter.
I do promise people following this thread that I do have some very normal straight forward horses too.


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## TarrSteps (13 February 2012)

kerilli said:



			But let's not let this interesting thread wander off into the dodgy territory of 'riders who think that because their horse is behaving like a **** it makes them exceptionally good, brave, whatever' - no, if they were really that good, it'd be doing its job, nicely!  

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That was not my point at all.  It was merely that, as a couple of other people have said, it can be a relative call and you can't always tell what the real situation is.  So you might go to see a horse that has really hurt people more than once, be on its last hope (at least as dictated by advice on the internet), and not see an insurmountable issue.

Some of that also informs what to do with a dangerous horse.  It's easy to say a dangerous horse should not be sold (or bought) but it's not always easy to make that call in the relatively short time available. 

One of the few really dangerous, disturbed horses I knew - from a family of crazies - was sold without provenance.  Another horse I knew, with a severe and limiting injury, was sold without full disclosure and hurt someone very badly. One of the horses I already mentioned, with the crazy mother, nearly hurt me a couple of times, had a spectacular meltdown in public, then went to another rider and ended her ability to ride anything else, ever.  THEN she went through a decent sport auction.  

Anyone persevering even a day with any of those horses, even the second without all the information, would have been in serious danger.

To the original point, I don't think there is an "ideal" time scale.  But, if I had to say, I'd like to be seeing a glimmer in about three rides/sessions.  (Keeping in mind I mean an actual glimmer.)  I'd like to see some reliable progress inside between one to three months, depending on the problem, how often I was working with the horse and who else was working with it.  I'd like to see a positive change in at the minimum a year.

If a physical issue crops up that could be addressed, I would be willing to start the clock again BUT if the horse was then reliably pain-free I'd expect progress on the quick side.

If the horse backslid significantly and couldn't be turned around again in a week or two, I'd need to see an understandable reason.  Otherwise I would assume a chronic physical problem.  Obviously if there were new symptoms, that would be an issue in itself.  

Of course, there are deal breakers.  And it would depend on what the owner could bear as well.  It would also depend on what I'd be willing to do in some cases.


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## Vodkagirly (13 February 2012)

I had a share horse, 16.2 maxi cob. Unfit when I got him allegedly due to owners pregnacy. Spent a few weeks fittening him up in walk then trot. First time I went for a canter he took off, couldn't circle at al,l no response at all. As we went around a corner at a full gallop he fell and I was lucky to fall clear but still had a bad break to my wrist. 
Started riding him again but just in the arena as I had no strength. One day he just took off again, we were in a small indoor and I truely thought we were going through the wall. Untacking I was talking to the girl in the next stable. She she asked why on earth I was risking my life on someone elses horse. Couldn't give a reasonable response to decided to give him up! Interestingly the owner has had baby, 18 months ago and still doesnt ride him.
I used to get on any horse, nothing scared me. Now I am much more careful, doesn't scare me but why get hurt when you need to be.


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## Fiagai (13 February 2012)

No real comment on what is depicted in this link to a horse attack incident in India - except it shows a horse in attack mode

Despite the headline not sure they guy was actually bitten "to death"!

LINK


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## Jenni_ (13 February 2012)

When I worked at Gleneagles, the head instructor had a horse who was Satan with 4 legs ( sorry if you see this!) he ragdolled staff SEVERLEY, and he was just evil up to the eyeballs. Lived in a muzzle out the stable, only some of the staff would work with him. You had to put a carrot In the muzzle and carefully position it over his face... Once the muzzle was on he was generally ok, he knew he couldnt get you.

Once he was being ridden though he was completely different! Amazing horse, she did dressage with him. And seemingly at competitions he was so placid and her young daughter could handle him, he even never looked at anyone the wrong way when he was out. 

I hacked him out once, and I was terrified! But he was  perfect in every way and he felt AMAZING. 

I was lucky he never caught me, but the girl he rag dolleds injuries were horrendous - he literally threw her about the field. Plenty other people got bitten whilst I was there too.

I dont know if she still has him! This was 2008/2009 time.


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## Jenni_ (13 February 2012)

Sorry, can't edit on phone - 07/08 time


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## Vodkagirly (13 February 2012)

I had a share horse, 16.2 maxi cob. Unfit when I got him allegedly due to owners pregnacy. Spent a few weeks fittening him up in walk then trot. First time I went for a canter he took off, couldn't circle at al,l no response at all. As we went around a corner at a full gallop he fell and I was lucky to fall clear but still had a bad break to my wrist. 
Started riding him again but just in the arena as I had no strength. One day he just took off again, we were in a small indoor and I truely thought we were going through the wall. Untacking I was talking to the girl in the next stable. She she asked why on earth I was risking my life on someone elses horse. Couldn't give a reasonable response to decided to give him up! Interestingly the owner has had baby, 18 months ago and still doesnt ride him.
I used to get on any horse, nothing scared me. Now I am much more careful, doesn't scare me but why get hurt when you need to be.


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## henryhorn (13 February 2012)

We bred two by a French stallion and both were incredibly difficult as youngsters. 
We persevered with both but felt neither were ready for sale until aged 7. 
One is no longer with us due to an accident but the other has turned into the most amazing horse who jumps as well as he dressages; he will never be a beginner's ride but will happily help the average rider once worked in by a more experienced one. He is still testing his boundaries even at 8, but we no longer get the rodeo horse type explosions which made us debate whether it was worth carrying on with him. 
We get lots of young horses in to train, often it's a case of quiet but firm handling, ie if something flatly refuses to tie up you don't move onto anything else until that issue is fixed. The majority of horses who are impossible are usually the result of bad handling/riding or pain in their bodies. The saddle fit is so important, yet often that isn't taken seriously enough. 
I do think there are some horses who need to have professional type riders, because they are sufficiently clever to always push their luck, and if allowed an inch take a mile which soon becomes a huge problem unless nipped in the bud right away.


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## kerilli (13 February 2012)

Fiagai said:



			No real comment on what is depicted in this link to a horse attack incident in India - except it shows a horse in attack mode

Despite the headline not sure they guy was actually bitten "to death"!

LINK

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I dread to even think what had been done to that poor horse to make it turn into an aggressor like that, unless it was rabid. Poor poor animal. He has my sympathy far more than the man does...   
As for anyone stupid enough to try to kick away a horse while they're on the ground... jeeez.


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## marmalade76 (13 February 2012)

kerilli said:



			Jeeez. Bullet. no question. That is downright nasty, and what on earth is the point of a nasty useless horse? 
And as for it being at a college... words fail me.
		
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It was nearly twenty years ago and it was a comp yard aswell. This horse was there as one of the instructors' 'own' horses. I think the two old ladies must have been paying well but not quite well enough as he was sent back eventually. The last I heard of him was that they were using him to cover!!   Never heard of since.


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## marmalade76 (13 February 2012)

Jenni_ said:



			When I worked at Gleneagles, the head instructor had a horse who was Satan with 4 legs ( sorry if you see this!) he ragdolled staff SEVERLEY, and he was just evil up to the eyeballs. Lived in a muzzle out the stable, only some of the staff would work with him. You had to put a carrot In the muzzle and carefully position it over his face... Once the muzzle was on he was generally ok, he knew he couldnt get you.

Once he was being ridden though he was completely different! Amazing horse, she did dressage with him. And seemingly at competitions he was so placid and her young daughter could handle him, he even never looked at anyone the wrong way when he was out. 

I hacked him out once, and I was terrified! But he was  perfect in every way and he felt AMAZING. 

I was lucky he never caught me, but the girl he rag dolleds injuries were horrendous - he literally threw her about the field. Plenty other people got bitten whilst I was there too.

I dont know if she still has him! This was 2008/2009 time.
		
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See, _he_ had some redeeming features, the one I knew had none at all!


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## OliviaSJ (13 February 2012)

Wouldnt put up with too much , e.g. flippers are a big no no. 
At the end of the day theres millions of horses out there but only one of me. This is my career and I cannot afford to get seriously injured for the sake of one horse.


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## Spiritedly (14 February 2012)

If a horse had no fear for it's own safety I wouldn't keep it if you paid me. I had a TB like that, he was very skinny when I got him and very quiet, as soon as he put on weight and condition he changed. He would do whatever it took to get you off his back, I've never known a horse have so many different styles of bucking! He'd even buck going down hills that he slid down just walking. I called it a day when he decided rearing wasn't enough he was going to start going over backwards too. Funnily enough you could stick a complete beginner on him and he was an angel it was just experienced riders he didn't like.


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## Puppy (14 February 2012)

kirstyhen said:



			Personally I wouldn't tolerate an awful lot regardless of breeding, potential, etc. but that is because I have zero confidence and if I had something that was constantly threatening to deck me/attack me, it would never reach that potential as I would never do anything with it for fear of getting hurt!

But I know plenty of people that put up with lots, have worked through issues and have lovely (ish!) horses now, it's just not my cup of tea! 

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This! 

I can't believe some of the nutters I used to ride as a teen, I wouldn't touch such horses with a bargepole now. 

I've had a serious head injury (double barreled in the face) and still have constant pain, limited mobility, and a whole load of health issues. However, the horse in question is the sweetest horse is the world, it was a completely freak occurance that she caught me in the face and I was quite upset when people suggested giving her a double barreling back with a shotgun  BUT a horse than did intend such an injury or set out to hurt people - well, I wouldn't give it anything close to a second chance I'm afraid.


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## clare1691 (14 February 2012)

Interesting thread. I am trying to make the deicision now - have an 8 yo 17h geling that has in the past month started rearing and is dangerously close to going over backwards.  Only in the school, is so far OK out hacking (but I've lost all trust in him and am ready to jump off at the slightest hint of trouble!). Is increasinly getting grumpy to handle and if asked to do something he doesn't want (like move over when tied up) will threaten to go up.  I don't know if this is boredom, excess fitness (food has been cut but he was fully fit when all this started and I am not working him anything like as much now) or a progression of whatever the problem is.

His saddle and back have been checked, vet check reveals nothing.

I can't afford to get hur, and get up at 5.30 to ride before work - it's not woth the time and effort when I dread doing it.

His current options are a change of career (huntsman is strangly very interested) or PTS.  I hate to think I'm giving up on him, but digging into his past suggests that this has been a pattern - works fab for a few months then starts standing up, and has gone over numerous times.


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## Orangehorse (14 February 2012)

Clare, have you had a check for ulcers?  There have been some complete changes for the good, with horses that were found to have ulcers.  There was one on another DG in a horse living out, so the vet just laughed at the owner and said it was a waste of money, but that was the diagnosis and the horse went from being dangerous to even bring in from the field, rearing, etc. and on the point of PTS, to a completely "normal" horse.


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## TheoryX1 (14 February 2012)

I read this thread with interest.  I have to be honest, the older I get, the less tolerant I get, and I know that when my current horse either retires or worse, I will be on the look out for nothing less than a saint, and am fully prepared to pay the high price for it.  

However, when I bought my horse, over 7 years ago we did find out he was a bolter.  I bought him as a first horse from a riding school.  He is well schooled and for the most part reasonably well mannered, but I think mentally he was totally shot away.  Before the riding school had him, he had had a chequered history and I think the hard work of the riding school knocked a few edges off of him.  However, when he became mine, we had all manner of issues to work through.  The worst of them was the bolting.

He bolted with my instructor on a number of occasions, and a few times with me.  It was always a whip around and a run for home, it was never away from home.  I ended up not riding alone for a long while.  Strangely a move to a new yard and lots and lots of love and fuss and some very hard work on the ground, plus some very good instruction, not just in the saddle, seemed to cure it, but I dont think its totally gone.  He still will whip around fairly fast, even at nearly 19, if he is feeling insecure, but I have learned to read him and to anticipate him, and it remains just a quick whip around, not a whip around and bolt.  Does this make him a dangerous horse?  Apart from this trait, which I suspect is down to his own insecurity, he is a good boy to box, shoe, vet, hack alone and in company, clip, catch and is actually a very nice person.  He has never reared and only bucks if its high spirits and he is feeling pretty good and with absolutely no malic, and he has never bitten or kicked me either.   I could ride down the M5 on him and he wouldnt bat an eyelid.

I would add that he is my first horse, but does this make him dangerous?


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## trina1982 (14 February 2012)

kerilli said:



			I dread to even think what had been done to that poor horse to make it turn into an aggressor like that, unless it was rabid. Poor poor animal. He has my sympathy far more than the man does...   
As for anyone stupid enough to try to kick away a horse while they're on the ground... jeeez.
		
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If you read the comments, people who can understand the news report have said that the horse was bitten by a dog with rabies, so yes, was rabid. The man was just cycling past on his way home from work 

Not nice for anyone involved

Trina x


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## wench (14 February 2012)

I didnt think horses could get/carry rabies... hence why they can be flown all over the world without the need for quarentine?


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## Lanky Loll (14 February 2012)

Not sure on why no quarantine but they can definitely get and transmit rabies: http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/ho...et-topics-how-horses-can-transmit-rabies.aspx

"Although horses are not a common source of infection, infected horses can transmit the disease to humans if a person examines the mouth of the sick animal and gets saliva on his or her hands. If there is a break in the skin, the virus can gain entrance. Anyone who handles the sick horse is at risk. 

Horses can become infected from bites by one of several wild animals. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in the United States report that the most common sources of infection now are raccoons, skunks, bats, and foxes."


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## TarrSteps (14 February 2012)

Um, horses are quarentined.  They can move around the EU without.


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## kerilli (14 February 2012)

trina1982 said:



			If you read the comments, people who can understand the news report have said that the horse was bitten by a dog with rabies, so yes, was rabid. The man was just cycling past on his way home from work 

Not nice for anyone involved

Trina x
		
Click to expand...

Ah right, thanks. I tend not to read the comments on youtube vids as they make my blood pressure rise!  
Glad my guess was correct. Poor poor horse and poor guy.
Afaik any mammal can carry rabies, no?

TheoryX, re: bolting - if it is a true bolt, I'd call that dangerous. If it's 'whipping round and legging it for home and going rather deaf to your instructions for a bit' that's one thing (and bad enough, don't get me wrong) but I've been tanked off with by various horses over the years (including one, very embarrassingly, at trot) and they were NOTHING like the one time I had one bolt - a bolter is ABSOLUTELY impervious to anything you do up there, totally oblivious, and would go through anything in its way... far more dangerous imho.


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## Lanky Loll (14 February 2012)

Not sure how effective quarantine is for rabies anyway - according to good ol' wiki incubation is usually 2-12 weeks but can be upto 2 years!  Lets just be thankful that rabies isn't a common worry in horses in the UK... although Scots beware as apparently there have been cases in bats in Scotland recently...


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## madlady (14 February 2012)

I would draw the line at temperament issues, no matter how well bred the horse.

A horse that bolts, rears, bucks etc from pain or as a result of previous pain/bad management is one thing.

A horse that does the same for no reason whatsoever apart from badness is a totally different kettle of fish - get a horse like that on one of it's bad days and it's capable of killing you.

I do have an example of what I call 'badness' - this is from a few years ago.  Horse was purchased as a youngster by a very very experienced owner, horse was bought to do dressage or jumping, had the breeding and the ability for either, owner was waiting and giving the horse a chance to see if it showed a preference.

She worked with the horse on the ground, it was an angel.  She started it very sympathetically - long reined, roller on, side reins (no bit at this point) all was going swimmingly - one day while long reining horse goes up and then throws itself backwards, when owner had let go of reins horse gets up shakes itself off and attacks owner - teeth and feet.  Vet out to check, nothing showing up, poked and proded, bloods taken, nothing showing.

She sends horse away to be professionally broken - thinking it might be her who has upset the horse.  All is going well for the first week, then horse flips, manages to get the professional on the floor then attacks them, teeth and feet.

She brings horse back, turns away for 6 months and then tries again - horse goes up and over first time she is on it, luckily she jumped clear but as soon as the horse was up it went for her.  Vets out again, everything checked, scans done - all clear.  Horse was then shot because owner would not risk selling it on no matter how well bred it was.

That to me is 'badness' as in temperament.  Pretty much like people really, some just aren't wired up properly.


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## wench (14 February 2012)

Looks like I was wrong. I am sure I read somewhere they couldnt carry it!


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