# How much is 'Meat' money?



## 3Beasties (18 January 2012)

What sort of price would you expect to get for a 16hh, reasonably well covered heavy TB type?

I guess roughly a weight of around 550kg?

Thanks


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## Crackedhalo (18 January 2012)

£400, thats a guess. i have no idea.


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## Spotsrock (18 January 2012)

More than for a private living sale at moment sadly.


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## scrunchie (18 January 2012)

Don't forget that you only get paid for meat not bones so you have to exclude the weight of those from you calculations. Plus things like intestines and lungs. I don't know if heart and livers etc are used.

I've been told it's about 80p a kilo.


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## Archiepoo (18 January 2012)

Realistically youd probly get around £250 theres not much meat on a tb.


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## Super_Kat (18 January 2012)

Eat it instead!


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## Archiepoo (18 January 2012)

oooh !


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## scrunchie (18 January 2012)

Super_Kat said:



			Eat it instead!
		
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Lol!

I was thinking that about Doris this morning. There's enough meat on my Doris's bum to keep a family of 6 well fed for at least a month. It's a shame you can't just shave a bit off now and then!


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## thatsmygirl (18 January 2012)

Go and buy another freezer


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## BigRed (18 January 2012)

what a sad post.  why are you asking ?  If a horse needs to be put down and cost is an issue, I am sure your local hunt would do it, and they are really very cheap.  Much cheaper than your vet and a cremation.


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## scrunchie (18 January 2012)

BigRed said:



			what a sad post.  why are you asking ?  If a horse needs to be put down and cost is an issue, I am sure your local hunt would do it, and they are really very cheap.  Much cheaper than your vet and a cremation.
		
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As long as the death is quick and painless, it won't make much difference to the horse whether it's a huntsman, a vet or a slaughterman that does the job.


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## rhino (18 January 2012)

scrunchie said:



			As long as the death is quick and painless, it won't make much difference to the horse whether it's a huntsman, a vet or a slaughterman that does the job.
		
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Or what happens to its body once it is dead..


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## Persephone (18 January 2012)

...and perhaps OP doesn't have the money to pay anyone?


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## charlie76 (18 January 2012)

quite agree,once the horse is dead why does it matter what happens to it?


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## Changes (18 January 2012)

Approx 60% of liveweight is paid out on. 

550 kg horse would be 330kg paid. 

Current median French prices for riding/TB/sports horses last week was between 2.50 (top quality) and 2.05 (good quality) per kilo.

(Heavy horses price was 1.56 per kilo.)

So you'd get approx 650 in France. No reason not to get that equivalent in sterling as the carcass will be sent abroad anyway, but I don't know what the UK rates are. There aren't publicised weekly figures, AFAIK. Would like to know if there are any, but under UK regs, the horse isn't considered a meat animal, so I doubt it. 

If you, or someone you know is considering it - go with the horse and make sure that the horse is slaughtered in the UK. The abattoirs are shipping out UK horses live to mainland Europe.


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## BigRed (18 January 2012)

My point is, not what happens to it's body...  but I always though the knackermen wanted to take a live horse back to their yard in order to shoot it and pay you for the flesh money. Maybe I am wrong and they can do it on your premises.  I think it's a bit sad to send a horse off like that.

I don't question whether people have the vet or the hunt.  I just think it's decent to have it done at the horses home.


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## charlie76 (18 January 2012)

correct, they take them live in a trailer to the slaughterhouse, they cannot do it on your premisies for fear of contamination.


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## scrunchie (18 January 2012)

charlie76 said:



			correct, they take them live in a trailer to the slaughterhouse, they cannot do it on your premisies for fear of contamination.
		
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But owners can go with the horse to comfort it. It's up to them whether they are present for the actual slaughter though.


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## Wagtail (18 January 2012)

BigRed said:



			My point is, not what happens to it's body...  but I always though the knackermen wanted to take a live horse back to their yard in order to shoot it and pay you for the flesh money. Maybe I am wrong and they can do it on your premises.  I think it's a bit sad to send a horse off like that.

I don't question whether people have the vet or the hunt.  I just think it's decent to have it done at the horses home.
		
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Completely agree.


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## Changes (18 January 2012)

Only abattoirs can slaughter for human consumption, so knackermen shoot them on the property. The meat can still be used for zoos or rendered, or whatever, even if the horse is transported dead to the premises.


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## Kenzo (18 January 2012)

I had this conversation with someone and they told me (they did quote figures per kilo/dead weight me but I can't remember correctly to pass on) but put it this way, I was told you could buy enough cheap unwanted TB's (enough to fill a lorry), fatten them up through summer for a short period, Potters would collect(from Yorkshire) and you'd make money, more than what you would buying and producing on.


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## Ibblebibble (18 January 2012)

how sad, not that the OP has asked but that you all assume they're about to send horse off to slaughter could it not also be that they have been told to offer meat money for a horse and they're trying to work out how much that is, or that they've been offered meat money for their horse and are trying to work out if they've been offered a fair amount!! 
People are always being told to offer 'meat money' for older or poor horses but how many of us really know how much that is?? i certainly wouldn't!


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## Magicmillbrook (18 January 2012)

BigRed said:



			My point is, not what happens to it's body...  but I always though the knackermen wanted to take a live horse back to their yard in order to shoot it and pay you for the flesh money. Maybe I am wrong and they can do it on your premises.  I think it's a bit sad to send a horse off like that.

I don't question whether people have the vet or the hunt.  I just think it's decent to have it done at the horses home.
		
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I agree too.  We didnt have our girl done by the knacker man because I have been to his place too many times with work and couldnt bear the thought of her stacked up waiting to be rendered.  Silly realy because the only important bit is having a relaxed, painless death.


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## Kenzo (18 January 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			how sad, not that the OP has asked but that you all assume they're about to send horse off to slaughter could it not also be that they have been told to offer meat money for a horse and they're trying to work out how much that is, or that they've been offered meat money for their horse and are trying to work out if they've been offered a fair amount!! 
People are always being told to offer 'meat money' for older or poor horses but how many of us really know how much that is?? i certainly wouldn't!
		
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Nope, I didn't assume that at all, I was just giving the OP some feed back on what someone had told me who had looked into it, but it was the year before last so presume the price per kilo will have changed by now.


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## scrunchie (18 January 2012)

Kenzo said:



			I had this conversation with someone and they told me (they did quote figures per kilo/dead weight me but I can't remember correctly to pass on) but put it this way, I was told you could buy enough cheap unwanted TB's (enough to fill a lorry), fatten them up through summer for a short period, Potters would collect(from Yorkshire) and you'd make money, more than what you would buying and producing on.
		
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But they all need to have passports and have that bit at the back where it says "This animal is unfit for human consumption" (or similar) left unsigned. Any unpassported horses over the age of 6 months automatically have this section signed by the passport agencies as they don't know what drugs the horse has given.

I know this because I queried it with the BHS when Dooney's passport came back with this section signed. Not that I'm planning on sending him for slaughter. I was just slightly narked that somebody had made that decision for me because at the time I thought it might have been a do-gooder in the office!


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## monkeybum13 (18 January 2012)

BigRed said:



			My point is, not what happens to it's body...  but I always though the knackermen wanted to take a live horse back to their yard in order to shoot it and pay you for the flesh money. Maybe I am wrong and they can do it on your premises.  I think it's a bit sad to send a horse off like that.

*I don't question whether people have the vet or the hunt.  I just think it's decent to have it done at the horses home.*

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A lot of people take their horses to the vets to be PTS, do you disagree with this too then?


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## camel_toe_girl (18 January 2012)

havent read all the posts but what does horse meat get used for?


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## BigRed (18 January 2012)

I cannot think of a single person I know, that has taken a horse to the vet premises, specifically for it to be pts.  There are not many regular horse vets who have premises where customers can actually take their horses for treatment.  Mine doesn't.

Plenty of horses get pts at horse hospital. I have had one of my own horses pts at Liphook.  I would have preferred her to go "at home" under controlled circumstances, but sadly, she was ill and could not be moved, so obviously she was dealt with by Liphook.

Two other horses were pts at home, by the hunt at a very low cost.

We all have personal choices, I have no idea what prompted this initial post, but I stand by my statement that I think it is kinder to have a horse pts in familiar circumstances where possible.  I appreciate we all have different opinions on this.


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## rhino (18 January 2012)

camel_toe_girl said:



			havent read all the posts but what does horse meat get used for?
		
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Food. Pet or human.


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## camel_toe_girl (18 January 2012)

oh, thanks rhino 
cant say iv'e ever seen horse steak on the menu anywhere though


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## rhino (18 January 2012)

camel_toe_girl said:



			oh, thanks rhino 
cant say iv'e ever seen horse steak on the menu anywhere though
		
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It's not awfully popular in the UK, most is exported


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## camel_toe_girl (18 January 2012)

exported to where, tailand china etc? must admit i like a good steak but dont think i would eat horse thanks. suppose places like china etc eat dogs though. errr not a pleasant thought being as i like dogs too!


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## rhino (18 January 2012)

camel_toe_girl said:



			exported to where, tailand china etc? must admit i like a good steak but dont think i would eat horse thanks. suppose places like china etc eat dogs though. errr not a pleasant thought being as i like dogs too!   

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It's quite popular in lots of European countries - France for example


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## camel_toe_girl (18 January 2012)

hmmmm, they can keep their ideas thank you!  have you? would you?


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## yasminA (18 January 2012)

BigRed said:



			We all have personal choices, I have no idea what prompted this initial post, but I stand by my statement that I think it is kinder to have a horse pts in familiar circumstances where possible.  I appreciate we all have different opinions on this.
		
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Completely agree


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## camel_toe_girl (18 January 2012)

yasminA said:



			Completely agree
		
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!thank god for that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## camel_toe_girl (18 January 2012)

who actually favours ijection over a bullet???? is'nt a bullet quicker for the animal?


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## TheMule (18 January 2012)

BigRed said:



			I don't question whether people have the vet or the hunt.  I just think it's decent to have it done at the horses home.
		
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But thats like saying its wrong to travel a horse to a competition.
It's applying human sentiment to an animal situation


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## Spudlet (18 January 2012)

camel_toe_girl said:



			who actually favours ijection over a bullet???? is'nt a bullet quicker for the animal?

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But for a headshy horse for example, shooting would be more stressful than an injection. It's a matter of knowing the horse and making the best choice for them.


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## SamanthaUK (18 January 2012)

How could you watch your horse being shot though. I understand that if they have to be slaughtered it's nice for them to spend their last moments with someone they know but how do you face it? If it was me, which it never would be, I wouldn't be able to go into the slaughterhouse let alone the actual killing room.

My opinion really though!


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## wench (18 January 2012)

If you inject it, it can't go for meat, and therefore it has to be cremated, and costs more!


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## Lady La La (18 January 2012)

SamanthaUK said:



			How could you watch your horse being shot though.
		
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When my girl hurt herself, I had a 4 hour wait between vets visits to see if she was going to improve. I spent that 4 hours sat by her stable googling videos of horses being shot and horses being injected. It sounds mental, I know but actually there are some very helpful and informative videos out there, and I made my mind up quite easily that she was going to be shot when the vet came back. 
As it happens because of her head injury that wasn't an option so she had to be euthanised. It wasn't a horrible death by any means, but she did take some time to die. I would chose a bullet, should I ever have to again.


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## Luci07 (18 January 2012)

My personal choice would not be to send one of my horses away for slaughter. Maybe it's an old wifes tale, but I had always thought they would pick up on the blood etc and be more distressed. When a horse had to be put down in the entrance of the ménage where I was at at the time, we had a real problem getting horses to get past it


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## Wagtail (18 January 2012)

I couldn't even consider the bullet personally. It would upset me too much. I have had three PTS by injection. This video is typical of how peaceful it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqyF4E019uI (not one of mine I have to add, but mine went just as peacefully). **WARNING** this video shows actual euthanasia.


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## SamanthaUK (18 January 2012)

Wagtail said:



			I couldn't even consider the bullet personally. It would upset me too much. I have had three PTS by injection. This video is typical of how peaceful it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqyF4E019uI (not one of mine I have to add, but mine went just as peacefully). **WARNING** this video shows actual euthanasia.
		
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I watched it and I didn't cry i'm so suprised.
That was really gentle and peaceful. Bless that mare. I would choose pts rather than slaughter!


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## tonitot (18 January 2012)

I watched the video, it did look peaceful but when the time comes for Ethel I think I'd have to choose the bullet. She hates injections, will rear, spock out and generally just stress out. When being sedated for her teeth she was a nightmare, so unless she is okay with needles by then I'd have to have her shot. I also couldn't be with her, would spend lots of time with her before hand feeding her loads if treats and giving her loads of fuss and then when it's time I'd give her to someone I trust. I know that sounds mean but I dont want my last memory of my horse to be one of her being shot and falling to the floor dead. It would haunt me forever


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## Goldenstar (18 January 2012)

I had my first horse put downbeat by injection dreadful terrible she fought and fought to stay on her feet and yelled as she went down never again.
I have them all shot I had my hunter shot last week he was a little head shy and it was windy so he has a little sedation I lead him round the corner stood behind the vet talked to him told how clever he was and that was that , hard for me easy for him the way it should be,


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## rhino (18 January 2012)

Spudlet said:



			But for a headshy horse for example, shooting would be more stressful than an injection. It's a matter of knowing the horse and making the best choice for them.
		
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This. Sometimes in 'emergency' situations the horses are adrenalised and injections can be a nightmare and take a longer than usual time to work. Similarly if the horse's system is beginning to shut down. The video that Wagtail posted is an 'ideal' injection scenario but it doesn't always happen that way. 

It really does depend on the circumstances and the owner's feelings.

Camel_toe_girl: no I wouldn't eat horse, but I don't eat meat and haven't in a very long time  I have no issue with it though.


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## scrunchie (18 January 2012)

I'd always go for the bullet.

I witnessed a pony being PTS by injection on a yard where I was a student at. The amount of blood was horrendous. Ialways thought the injection would be less messy but it wasn't.

He was an elderly pony who could no longer stand up. I've no idea why it was so messy. I can only assume that as his internal organs packed in the blood found it's way out.

I've also heard that the horse can actually be concious for a lot longer with the injection but unable to move because it's body is dead/dying. I'm not sure if that's just an internet rumour though.


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## mightymammoth (18 January 2012)

rhino said:



			This. Sometimes in 'emergency' situations the horses are adrenalised and injections can be a nightmare and take a longer than usual time to work. Similarly if the horse's system is beginning to shut down. The video that Wagtail posted is an 'ideal' injection scenario but it doesn't always happen that way. 

It really does depend on the circumstances and the owner's feelings.

Camel_toe_girl: no I wouldn't eat horse, but I don't eat meat and haven't in a very long time  I have no issue with it though.
		
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Ahh a fellow veggie glad there is a few of us on here


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## Magicmillbrook (18 January 2012)

My horse was injected, she was already down and heavily sedated  - very peaceful ending, I couldnt travel my horse to be put down as I would be so upset I would be a danger on the road.


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## scrunchie (18 January 2012)

camel_toe_girl said:



			hmmmm, they can keep their ideas thank you!  have you? would you?

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There's a thread on here somewhere where we are discussing whether we could eat it or not. Apparently it tastes like sweet beef. Might be alright in a lasagna or casserole. Can't imagine I'd like it as a steak.

I would eat it. I have no qualms eating anything.


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## bumblelion (18 January 2012)

I like the idea of the injection, much nicer for me to witness as I would have to be there holding them. However, my tb fights sedation so I know the best thing for him would be to be shot. Are vets as competent at shooting them as say the hunt? I'd want them to be cremated when the time comes and want them doing at home.


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## dunkley (18 January 2012)

SamanthaUK said:



			I would choose pts rather than slaughter!
		
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SUK - slaughter _*is*_ pts! The horse ends up dead, no difference.  Slaughter is simply a term used when something is going to be used for meat.  There are , of course, different methods of putting down a horse, generally bullet or needle.  It is pretty widely acknowledged that the bullet is kinder for the horse, and the needle kinder for the owner.



Goldenstar said:



			I had my first horse put downbeat by injection dreadful terrible she fought and fought to stay on her feet and yelled as she went down never again.
I have them all shot I had my hunter shot last week he was a little head shy and it was windy so he has a little sedation I lead him round the corner stood behind the vet talked to him told how clever he was and that was that , hard for me easy for him the way it should be,
		
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GS - hugs to you. You have experienced both methods, and are far better qualified than most of us to express an opinion.


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## zoelouisem (18 January 2012)

I've just watched that video and have to say of the 5 horses I've seen injected they did not got like that it was horrific fought really bad, the 5th was already down so wasn't to bad. I would always choose bullet over injection due to my experiences.


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## cptrayes (18 January 2012)

The video is the absolute best case. But did anyone wonder why the ropes on it were so long? That's in case the adrenalin takes over and it goes crazy. It's very rare, but it does happen. 

I held one for a friend a couple of months ago, while the vet gave it a lethal injection. It did not stop blinking its eyes for five minutes, it was absolutely horrible to see. At least when they twitch their legs when they are shot you know that their brain is not still active. In this case, it looked for all the world as if the brain was still active and the horse knew what was going on, but was paralysed.

I always have mine shot, and I asked the vet this time what he would do if the horse was his (out of earshot of my friend, of course) and he said he would go for a gun every time.


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## SamanthaUK (18 January 2012)

dunkley said:



			SUK - slaughter _*is*_ pts! The horse ends up dead, no difference.  Slaughter is simply a term used when something is going to be used for meat.  There are , of course, different methods of putting down a horse, generally bullet or needle.  It is pretty widely acknowledged that the bullet is kinder for the horse, and the needle kinder for the owner.

Yes I know what it means.. 

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## Wagtail (18 January 2012)

zoelouisem said:



			I've just watched that video and have to say of the 5 horses I've seen injected they did not got like that it was horrific fought really bad, the 5th was already down so wasn't to bad. I would always choose bullet over injection due to my experiences.
		
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I think you need to get a new vet!


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## stencilface (18 January 2012)

I would chose injection, as have had positive experiences with this - easy and quick and peaceful.


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## zoelouisem (18 January 2012)

I don't need to get a new vet!! I work with horses have done for years, and over the years that's what I've seen with different vets. I've also see horses shot and although not nessary the nicest thing to watch is a lot quicker. I do have to say I haven't seen a horse injected for a good few years so it may be better .


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## Fii (18 January 2012)

Stencilface said:



			I would chose injection, as have had positive experiences with this - easy and quick and peaceful.
		
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Sometimes, sometimes not!
 A friend told me one of hers fought the injection, vet gave it enough to kill four Shires, it wouldnt go down, vet had to go back to office to get more, takes about an hour round trip!

  Our shire was already down when he had the injection, and it WAS quick and peacefull.
  I have had one go to Potters as well. It all depends on the horse and the circumstances!


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## Irishbabygirl (18 January 2012)

Ok here's a thought I've just had from reading this thread...if you have your horse shot by the hunt they will use the meat and you'll need to pay to have this done -  why not take it to potters or similar where the meat is still used but you get the money? Please don't shoot me down for saying it as I'm a newbie and its only just occured to me  having said that, I don't think I could do that - not brave enough! Had my last mare pre by injection and didn't witness it so can't comment! Did however used to be an equine nurse so have witnessed both ways lots of times and have to say bullet seems better for the horse but my mare was very head shy so injection was better for her.


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## Tormenta (18 January 2012)

Merry Crisis said:



			Sorry Wagtail I dont agree with you, vets  are not putting horses to sleep every day, a slaughterman does. I know which way I would do it.............. a bullet at home by a pofessional slaughterman.
		
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I don't agree with that old potato!  To an extent, yes the knacker is experienced in putting down stock but he doesn't come out of the lorry armed with a syringe and drugs does he? So he probably does have more experience in his own 'field'. A Vet, however, will ALWAYS have more experience in administrating drugs than a knackerman and I DON'T want this turned into a gun or injection debate or whatever but having recently had one of my animals put to sleep, the lovely young vet informed me that he had done nothing but put animals to sleep for the last three weeks, 3/4 every day, cattle, sheep, horses etc. And he kindly told me that it isn't something you ever get used to because each situation is different but he is satisfied when he leaves each one that he has done his best for that animal.  

I dislke hearing about the put downs that Vets get at times, mine do an exceptional and thorough job!


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## Holly Hocks (18 January 2012)

I had my horse PTS in October last year.  He always responded very well to sedation - to the point where he would snore, loudly!  He was heavily sedated and when given the Somulose went down immediately.  It is the way that I would choose with any horse of mine, unless it was one which didn't respond to sedation. 
I understand there are horror stories - there are horror stories about bullets not hitting the right spot, bullets missing completely, horses going crazy with the injection - but it's important to remember that we only really hear the horror stories. People like to sensationalise things and we need to know that 99% of the time, everything goes quietly and smoothly. 
As for the person who said they had seen 5 horses PTS with injection and they had all gone wrong, I'm afraid that I agree with the person who said you need another vet!


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## camel_toe_girl (18 January 2012)

scrunchie said:



			There's a thread on here somewhere where we are discussing whether we could eat it or not. Apparently it tastes like sweet beef. Might be alright in a lasagna or casserole. Can't imagine I'd like it as a steak.

I would eat it. I have no qualms eating anything.
		
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Right... off to have a looksee!


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## 3Beasties (18 January 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			how sad, not that the OP has asked but that you all assume they're about to send horse off to slaughter could it not also be that they have been told to offer meat money for a horse and they're trying to work out how much that is, or that they've been offered meat money for their horse and are trying to work out if they've been offered a fair amount!! 
People are always being told to offer 'meat money' for older or poor horses but how many of us really know how much that is?? i certainly wouldn't!
		
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Thanks IB, you are indeed spot on!

Didn't mean it to turn into such a depressingly morbid thread


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## Always Henesy (18 January 2012)

When I was 17 I was involved in a freak accident with my TB that resulted in him severing a leg after a fall. It was on a bridleway in the days before mobile phones. Luckily my friend was riding with me and galloped to the next village to find a phone box. She rang the police, they got an emergency vet, the vet came out to the bridleway and shot my horse. The vet told me to walk away...so I did. Only to turn round as he was shot and see him go down. He twitched violently for a long time. I remember the vet picking me up off the floor as I had sunk to my knees in the mud screaming. To say that it traumatised me is understatement of the century. That was 20 years ago and I remember it like it was yesterday. RIP Dillon x
In August last year I had my beloved best pal Henesy pts by lethal injection. He was sedated first. He fell to the floor with my vet protecting his head as he went down. It was very quick and very peaceful. My vet was stroking him and soothing him the whole time and showed so much compassion to me and my lad. He died in his field with the sun on his back and the human who loved him so much. I lay with him in the field for a long time and only left just before the hunt came to pick him up. It was a dignified end for him and I would choose injection over shooting every time.
God rest your soul Henesy xx


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## superted1989 (18 January 2012)

I've always preferred to have horses shot and have stayed with my own and other people's.  When I was just a teenager, I managed to see a PTS by injection go badly and it put me off.  However, I promised a good friend I would stay with her elderly mare when it was her time but she chose injection.  I was dreading it, but, the vet said it has changed since the '80s.  In the end, it was very peaceful and very easy, the mare fell asleep, then slipped away.
With Ted (prior to the mare's injected PTS), I was having him buried at the yard, so, lethal shot was the only option.  When Markie's time comes I shall be in a quandary, injection seems more appealing having witnessed a 'good' one.  Also, our local knackerman has just retired and he was brilliant.  We don't have a slaughterhouse here, and it would cost too much to get to one, so, thankfully, it's never been an option.  Instead of valuing for 'meat money' here, it more likely to think aboout how much the cheapest PTS is, plus the cremation cost (currently about £400 cheapest).  Last I heard, even the zoo isn't taking dead stock


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## dingle12 (18 January 2012)

Totally off subject sorry( well hope it is ) - but what happened to the grey you found??


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## Trinity Fox (19 January 2012)

I would only ever have a horse pts at home there is nothing that would convince me to do anything else, I have only ever had them shot by the hunt have had two shot with a humane killer by a slaughter man who lives next to us when in an emergancy we couldnt get hunt or vet quickly enough.

I cant argue on the injection as have never seen it but making your old friend travel to a slaughterhouse for the pathetic amount you get in my opinion is unforgivable and something I would never do.


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## ginger76 (19 January 2012)

i had mine pts at home by injection.  i felt it only fair i stayed with him until he went down as he knew me and i didnt want him being left with someone he didnt know.  he was sedated and went down very quietly and was gone before he hit the floor, he didnt twitch at all, my lovely husband then stayed while he was taken away as i didnt want to see him being dragged by chains into the back of a lorry, would go for this option again if i had a choice and i would always stay with them in their final moments however hard as i owe them that much


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## brigantia (19 January 2012)

Trinity Fox said:



			I cant argue on the injection as have never seen it but making your old friend travel to a slaughterhouse for the pathetic amount you get in my opinion is unforgivable and something I would never do.
		
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I totally agree with this. 

Horses know what abbatoirs are. There's a local one off a bridle path we hack out on. The horses *always* get disturbed and agitated when they have to go past it.


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## Avonbrook (19 January 2012)

3Beasties said:



			Thanks IB, you are indeed spot on!

Didn't mean it to turn into such a depressingly morbid thread 

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I needed the information for this reason and rang Potters.  Either they or Turners would be able to give you a decent estimate based on the horse's size and build to use as your valuation.  The man I spoke to was very helpful and I got the impression that he was well used to dealing with enquiries for that purpose.


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## M_G (19 January 2012)

Merry Crisis said:



			Sorry Wagtail I dont agree with you, vets  are not putting horses to sleep every day, a slaughterman does. I know which way I would do it.............. a bullet at home by a pofessional slaughterman.
		
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I am with you on this & would have hunt or knacker out to do the job as they do it pretty much every day of the week....Vets PTS rarely


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## M_G (19 January 2012)

Avonbrook said:



			I needed the information for this reason and rang Potters.  Either they or Turners would be able to give you a decent estimate based on the horse's size and build to use as your valuation.  The man I spoke to was very helpful and I got the impression that he was well used to dealing with enquiries for that purpose.
		
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How much did he estimate?


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## Goldenstar (19 January 2012)

I say off hand how many my vet has shot for me put it will be into double figures and it's always been very professional and having the vet do it means if (as my boy last week did ) they need a bit of sedation they can have it that's why I use the vet not the huntsman who would also do an excellent job I am sure.
I have a ritual to how I cope with this and I always do it the same way as its always been ok for them. I learnt from the first one who the vet at that time preferred to inject I did not do my home work well and had a nasty experiance at the end I knew my mare did not have as quick an end as she could have.
Its not a nice subject but if you are a keeper like me ie you don't bring horses on and sell them it's something you will face at some point and you need a plan .


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## charlie76 (19 January 2012)

I sent a 16.2hh ISH middleweight- I got £375.00 for him


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## Avonbrook (19 January 2012)

M_G said:



			How much did he estimate?
		
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Can't remember per kilo but it worked out to a little under £550 for the horse in question.  This was around 3 years ago.  I expect the value per kilo varies - with the exchange rate for a start.


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## M_G (19 January 2012)

That's a lot more than I would have thought :-o


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## LaurenB (19 January 2012)

I would go for being shot. My friends horse was kicked in field, broke its leg, vet came administered injection, checked horse and left, tractor came to drag the horse from field, only then it was found to still be alive and tried to get back up, vet took another hour to return and the poor girl at the time was 14!!!!


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## Luci07 (19 January 2012)

You can't be prescriptive. First of you should check with your vet - some have strong feelings and will not offer a choice. From my personal experience I would not to choose to inject a fit horse that had suffered a trauma. A combination of pain and adrenalin will mean they will fight the sedation. Another horse who is physically less well in itself and feeling so ill would probably go quite easily. I have seen both. Both worked correctly but also, having seen first hand how my old horse fought being sedated for his colic surgery I would always consider the best option for my horse. Have no feelings about hunt, knackerman or vet but am anti sending a horse away for slaughter. My personal choice would be at home and cremated ( shared). Just one thing for anyone who has not been through this. Do not under estimate the impact on yourself. You may well think you are doing the best thing by staying to the very end, but trust me, going to pieces does not help your horse. I put my hand up and admit my vet had to send me away as I was distressing my horse. I had always thought I would be strong. On the day it happened I fell apart.


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## charlie76 (19 January 2012)

I have held lots of horses to be PTS, most by lethal injection. I have never seen one have an adverse effect, fight it or other wise, no matter what the reason for destruction- broken legs, colic, impaled on a fence, AM, or simply old age or lameness.
I have also seen horse shot, again, no problems.
The only difference is the injected ones are sedated first so they tend to just drop slowly and the ones that are shot have more reflexes after its done so they tend to scramble about a bit with their legs once down as they shut down.


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## Wagtail (19 January 2012)

LaurenB said:



			I would go for being shot. My friends horse was kicked in field, broke its leg, vet came administered injection, checked horse and left, tractor came to drag the horse from field, only then it was found to still be alive and tried to get back up, vet took another hour to return and the poor girl at the time was 14!!!!
		
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This can also happen with the bullet.


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## forestfantasy (19 January 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			I had my horse PTS in October last year.  He always responded very well to sedation - to the point where he would snore, loudly!  He was heavily sedated and when given the Somulose went down immediately.  It is the way that I would choose with any horse of mine, unless it was one which didn't respond to sedation. 
I understand there are horror stories - there are horror stories about bullets not hitting the right spot, bullets missing completely, horses going crazy with the injection - but it's important to remember that we only really hear the horror stories. People like to sensationalise things and we need to know that 99% of the time, everything goes quietly and smoothly. 
As for the person who said they had seen 5 horses PTS with injection and they had all gone wrong, I'm afraid that I agree with the person who said you need another vet!
		
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This 100%
I've seen 2 now with injection and held 1, both went very peacefully one with a broken leg - the other just an old man - i think the important thing is to have the horse well sedated first.
Both mine will be pts by injection when the time comes.


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## penhwnllys_stardust (19 January 2012)

Injection is kinder for the owner, bullet is kinder for the horse.


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## Zebedee (19 January 2012)

penhwnllys_stardust said:



			Injection is kinder for the owner, bullet is kinder for the horse.
		
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^^^^

This is true. I held a pony that was PTS by injection a few years ago & as the drug hit his system his heart rate rocketed, & his eyes were on stalks, then he dropped. 

If they're dispatched by a bullet they know nothing about it.


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## Blanche (19 January 2012)

LaurenB said:



			I would go for being shot. My friends horse was kicked in field, broke its leg, vet came administered injection, checked horse and left, tractor came to drag the horse from field, only then it was found to still be alive and tried to get back up, vet took another hour to return and the poor girl at the time was 14!!!!
		
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This happens when things have been shot too. Had hunt out to put a cow down ,we both said cow (me and farm manager)was still alive but arrogant ******** from hunt said we were both stupid and of course she was dead . Chain round neck , dragged to top of very wet field by tractor and she was trying to stand!

I have seen many shot very badly and they have not been pleasant for anyone involved . I have had a few shot at home by the knackerman and that was a very easy and calm experience and would use a knackerman again if necessary but would only use a hunt if it was an emergency and no other option . I have had many put down by injection and have never had a problem so that would always be my preferred choice . My vets have always been experienced horse vets and it has all been over very quickly , much quicker than that video that someone posted . In fact the only problems I have had with injections has been with some of my cats and dogs . One cat had three injections , the last one directly into his heart before he went .


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## Ibblebibble (19 January 2012)

3Beasties said:



			Thanks IB, you are indeed spot on!

Didn't mean it to turn into such a depressingly morbid thread 

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 the gun or injection thing has been done a hundred times but people just can't resist going over it at any chance


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## Brandy (19 January 2012)

BigRed said:



			I cannot think of a single person I know, that has taken a horse to the vet premises, specifically for it to be pts.  There are not many regular horse vets who have premises where customers can actually take their horses for treatment.  Mine doesn't.
		
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Really?Every vet I have used has had facilities for your horse to go in and be treated, and stay there for as long as necessary, and be pts there too if need be. Not sure I would use an equine practice that didn;t have these facilities.


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## Phoebe (19 January 2012)

I've had 3 horses pts by injection and all went smoothly - except putting the needle in on my old mare who was writhing with colic... but once the injection was administered she went quickly and peacefully. I've seen one shot and its incredibly quick.
Re the knackerman etc, well, in an ideal world I would 

1. PTS at home and cremation
but, if finances dictate otherwise then I will go for
2. Knackerman at home
worse case - 3. Slaughter and go with them

Sadly, with bills to pay and a recent change in my personal circumstances then I would have to go down the practical route because the end result is always the same


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## Wagtail (19 January 2012)

I was surprised when we had our last dog PTS that the insurance would not pay for the euthanasia, even though it was on strictly humane grounds. (Dog in absolute agony with brain tumor). My last horse to be PTS was not insured so we paid for it ourselves but wondered do horse insurance cover euthanasia? I thought it very odd that the dog insurance did not.


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## rhino (19 January 2012)

Wagtail said:



			I was surprised when we had our last dog PTS that the insurance would not pay for the euthanasia, even though it was on strictly humane grounds. (Dog in absolute agony with brain tumor). My last horse to be PTS was not insured so we paid for it ourselves but wondered do horse insurance cover euthanasia? I thought it very odd that the dog insurance did not.
		
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They should, if it comes under the regulations for immediate destruction on humane grounds. Anything less urgent should be checked out with the insurance company pre pts.

Worth checking the small print to be sure though, I only know of some of the more well known companies.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (19 January 2012)

Am just trying to sort out PTS at present  (so not of help to the OP, but may be to others at some point)

For those who want to know the costings of PTS, as they currently are here in NW Surrey:

Seems vet is £136.70 for injection, plus poss sedative if required 1st, then plus  visit (around £50) then add VAT to total. They will give details of their removal firms if I wish, for collection.

Local (nice man, who I know) knackerman is £175 inc vat with or without bullet to collect. He is same price whether he despatches or just collects.

Going to place away from yard for despatch is not an option as far as I am concerned in this instance, we do it at home


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## Jesstickle (19 January 2012)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Am just trying to sort out PTS at present  (so not of help to the OP, but may be to others at some point)
		
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I am very sorry to hear this TFF  Hope you are ok.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (19 January 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I am very sorry to hear this TFF  Hope you are ok.
		
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umm, awaiting vet to call later this afternoon with final bloods results. Unfortunately little Fuzzy looks fine on the outside, its whats happening on the inside thats not good 
Fingers xx'd vet & I are wrong 

Thx x


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## Jesstickle (19 January 2012)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			umm, awaiting vet to call later this afternoon with final bloods results. Unfortunately little Fuzzy looks fine on the outside, its whats happening on the inside thats not good 
Fingers xx'd vet & I are wrong 

Thx x
		
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Blooming heck. I will cross my fingers and toes for you too. Just in case that makes a difference.


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## *hic* (19 January 2012)

LaurenB said:



			I would go for being shot. My friends horse was kicked in field, broke its leg, vet came administered injection, checked horse and left, tractor came to drag the horse from field, only then it was found to still be alive and tried to get back up, vet took another hour to return and the poor girl at the time was 14!!!!
		
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Wagtail said:



			This can also happen with the bullet. 

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Not if the horse is bled out it can't!


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## *hic* (19 January 2012)

brigantia said:



			I totally agree with this. 

Horses know what abbatoirs are. There's a local one off a bridle path we hack out on. The horses *always* get disturbed and agitated when they have to go past it.
		
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They're more likely reacting to your feelings on it. We have sheep killed at home and they are then split and hung in one of two adjoining stables separated by a three foot high wall. My Section A will quite happily take herself into the stable if she sees the door open, on one occasion we hadn't even cleaned the floor and she was walking through pools of gore. The other horses haven't managed to get in there for a snout about but will all have a look in and are in no way worried about the deaths occurring or the bodies afterwards.

I have travelled my big mare to a competition with a dead sheep in the stall next to her to drop off at the hunt on the way. The kennelman was most confused because he thought I'd brought the mare over to be shot She didn't care either about the sheep next to her nor the fairly ripe smell from the charnel house.

The last pony I took to the hunt went on the hoof, done up to the nines with full travel gear on, coincidentally the kennels are in the same place where she did her first PC rally twenty years earlier. She loaded herself on the lorry, full of excitement at finally being taken out to another show, she unloaded fine, we told her she was looking great and to be a good girl, the kennelman came and introduced himself to her, she was at no point stressed by the surroundings or the smell whilst he went and got her a bucket of feed, we handed the lead rope over to him, she walked happily with him round the corner to just outside the door of the charnel house and then there was a bang and a minute or so later the kennelman brought the headcollar back to us. 

Don't believe all you hear about animals being upset by slaughter, none of mine are at all bothered. I will happily travel whichever of mine can still travel to the hunt for them to do the job. However mine are all used to travelling and would not find that part of it stressful at all.


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## cptrayes (19 January 2012)

charlie76 said:



			The only difference is the injected ones are sedated first so they tend to just drop slowly and the ones that are shot have more reflexes after its done so they tend to scramble about a bit with their legs once down as they shut down.
		
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This depends on the vet. The one I held recently for a friend was not sedated. The vet said that it just causes them more upset to be injected twice and to feel the loss of control under sedation. 

Injected ones also twitch for some time. One last year twitched for a couple of minutes. This year's one's eyes were blinking for a good five minutes and the vet kept on checking her heart was stopped as he could not understand why she still looked conscious.


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## forestfantasy (19 January 2012)

I couldnt understand any vet injecting twice for sedation then pts - the ones I've seen always use a cannula (sp?)


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## Tinseltoes (19 January 2012)

What a sad and morbid post this has turned out to be.Sigh!!!!!!


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## cptrayes (19 January 2012)

forestfantasy said:



			I couldnt understand any vet injecting twice for sedation then pts - the ones I've seen always use a cannula (sp?)
		
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It's two hefty lots of fluid to go into the cannula and sedated or not, they feel the second one going in, you can see it. The vet this year preferred for the horse to have just one injection into the cannula to stop its heart and not put it through the feeling of loss of control that some horses panic at and fight, and some overcome and then have so much adrenalin that they don't die as quickly as they should from the lethal syringe full.  The owner stated clearly that she would prefer the horse to be sedated and he told her that he would not do it.


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## cptrayes (19 January 2012)

Tinseltoes said:



			What a sad and morbid post this has turned out to be.Sigh!!!!!!
		
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I don't feel it's that morbid, but it is a fact of horse owning life. We live, usually, longer than they do and I do think every owner needs to face facts if they want to keep a horse. For myself, I would rather know about what will happen than go into it blindly, like I had to the first time when forums like this weren't around.


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## Holly Hocks (19 January 2012)

cptrayes said:



			It's two hefty lots of fluid to go into the cannula and sedated or not, they feel the second one going in, you can see it. The vet this year preferred for the horse to have just one injection into the cannula to stop its heart and not put it through the feeling of loss of control that some horses panic at and fight, and some overcome and then have so much adrenalin that they don't die as quickly as they should from the lethal syringe full.  The owner stated clearly that she would prefer the horse to be sedated and he told her that he would not do it.
		
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That's really strange.  When Rebel was PTS my vet gave him a very small injection in his stable - I'm not sure what that was - possibly a muscle relaxant?
We then led him up to the patch of grass at the top of the yard where she sedated him - again only a tiny injection. Then when he was completely out of it, snoring and bottom lip hanging, I left him with the farmer holding him as I didn't feel that I could stay.  So we went into a barn and within a minute, the vet came and told us he had gone.  We went  back to see him and he had already been covered with a tarpaulin, so it must have been really really quick.  She said that he had dropped instantly and while I know she may just have been telling me to make me feel better, the farmer had also told a couple of my friends on the yard that he had never seen an animal go so instantly. 
I don't think my vet would do it WITHOUT sedation!!


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## Aoibhin (19 January 2012)

i have looked into meat costs for a good freind for her 4 darling old horses because her & the Oh are divorcing  he is listing them as assets so she has got meat prices for them which is all they are worth. not many would buy a 31yo arthritic fell, a 19yo unridable TB(broke pelvis), 26yo blind arab  & or an evil welsh mountain beastie thats 19yo & still unhandalble to everyone exept her (& god knows we have tried)

its not always the obvoius reasons behind questions.


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## RoobyDoobs (19 January 2012)

Tinseltoes said:



			What a sad and morbid post this has turned out to be.Sigh!!!!!!
		
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I so agree!  I know what the thread is, I know I have to face this situation one day as my boy will be with me for life, and I know it's going to upset me reading all the comments, but I can't help myself... So sat here blubbing


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## Tinseltoes (19 January 2012)

BevvyD said:



			I so agree!  I know what the thread is, I know I have to face this situation one day as my boy will be with me for life, and I know it's going to upset me reading all the comments, but I can't help myself... So sat here blubbing 

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My cobblet is still young at 9 (10 in may). Section A same age and both are with me for life.When the time comes for PTS it will be by injection.Hopefully they will both have a long life.


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## Ibblebibble (19 January 2012)

Tinseltoes said:



			What a sad and morbid post this has turned out to be.Sigh!!!!!!
		
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Oh but HHO does love a good PTS thread even though that wasn't what the OP was asking for!!


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## RoobyDoobs (19 January 2012)

Tinseltoes said:



			My cobblet is still young at 9 (10 in may). Section A same age and both are with me for life.When the time comes for PTS it will be by injection.Hopefully they will both have a long life.
		
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My beautiful boy is 15 this year and I hope it's a very long time before I need to make this decision for him.  Whatever I do then will depend on the circumstances, and it will be whichever is the kindest way for him, not me. It will be at home... and I will be with him to the end. I owe him that.


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## brigantia (20 January 2012)

Dee O'Dorant said:



			They're more likely reacting to your feelings on it. We have sheep killed at home and they are then split and hung in one of two adjoining stables separated by a three foot high wall. My Section A will quite happily take herself into the stable if she sees the door open, on one occasion we hadn't even cleaned the floor and she was walking through pools of gore. The other horses haven't managed to get in there for a snout about but will all have a look in and are in no way worried about the deaths occurring or the bodies afterwards.

I have travelled my big mare to a competition with a dead sheep in the stall next to her to drop off at the hunt on the way. The kennelman was most confused because he thought I'd brought the mare over to be shot She didn't care either about the sheep next to her nor the fairly ripe smell from the charnel house.

The last pony I took to the hunt went on the hoof, done up to the nines with full travel gear on, coincidentally the kennels are in the same place where she did her first PC rally twenty years earlier. She loaded herself on the lorry, full of excitement at finally being taken out to another show, she unloaded fine, we told her she was looking great and to be a good girl, the kennelman came and introduced himself to her, she was at no point stressed by the surroundings or the smell whilst he went and got her a bucket of feed, we handed the lead rope over to him, she walked happily with him round the corner to just outside the door of the charnel house and then there was a bang and a minute or so later the kennelman brought the headcollar back to us. 

Don't believe all you hear about animals being upset by slaughter, none of mine are at all bothered. I will happily travel whichever of mine can still travel to the hunt for them to do the job. However mine are all used to travelling and would not find that part of it stressful at all.
		
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Actually, no. My horse reacted that way before I even knew what that building was. Other people's horses I've been out with react that way, also. It appears to have nothing to do with the rider's sensibilities or opinions on slaughter.


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## forestfantasy (20 January 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			That's really strange.  When Rebel was PTS my vet gave him a very small injection in his stable - I'm not sure what that was - possibly a muscle relaxant?
We then led him up to the patch of grass at the top of the yard where she sedated him - again only a tiny injection. Then when he was completely out of it, snoring and bottom lip hanging, I left him with the farmer holding him as I didn't feel that I could stay.  So we went into a barn and within a minute, the vet came and told us he had gone.  We went  back to see him and he had already been covered with a tarpaulin, so it must have been really really quick.  She said that he had dropped instantly and while I know she may just have been telling me to make me feel better, the farmer had also told a couple of my friends on the yard that he had never seen an animal go so instantly. 
I don't think my vet would do it WITHOUT sedation!!
		
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This is my experience too. With 2 seperate vets.
I don't think my vets would do it without sedation & i certainly wouldn't let him without it.
Both the ones i have seen went very quickly & peacefully - based on this mine will be pts by injection.
There are horror stories either way but i will base my decision on my experiences - not other peoples


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## Wagtail (20 January 2012)

brigantia said:



			Actually, no. My horse reacted that way before I even knew what that building was. Other people's horses I've been out with react that way, also. It appears to have nothing to do with the rider's sensibilities or opinions on slaughter.
		
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I agree. Animals know what a slaughter house is. And not just the horses either. It is not so much the blood as the smell of fear. The pheromones released by frightened animals and the noise.


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## Wagtail (20 January 2012)

Dee O'Dorant said:



			They're more likely reacting to your feelings on it. We have sheep killed at home and they are then split and hung in one of two adjoining stables separated by a three foot high wall. My Section A will quite happily take herself into the stable if she sees the door open, on one occasion we hadn't even cleaned the floor and she was walking through pools of gore. The other horses haven't managed to get in there for a snout about but will all have a look in and are in no way worried about the deaths occurring or the bodies afterwards.

I have travelled my big mare to a competition with a dead sheep in the stall next to her to drop off at the hunt on the way. The kennelman was most confused because he thought I'd brought the mare over to be shot She didn't care either about the sheep next to her nor the fairly ripe smell from the charnel house.

The last pony I took to the hunt went on the hoof, done up to the nines with full travel gear on, coincidentally the kennels are in the same place where she did her first PC rally twenty years earlier. She loaded herself on the lorry, full of excitement at finally being taken out to another show, she unloaded fine, we told her she was looking great and to be a good girl, the kennelman came and introduced himself to her, she was at no point stressed by the surroundings or the smell whilst he went and got her a bucket of feed, we handed the lead rope over to him, she walked happily with him round the corner to just outside the door of the charnel house and then there was a bang and a minute or so later the kennelman brought the headcollar back to us. 

Don't believe all you hear about animals being upset by slaughter, none of mine are at all bothered. I will happily travel whichever of mine can still travel to the hunt for them to do the job. However mine are all used to travelling and would not find that part of it stressful at all.
		
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There is a big difference between having animals slaughtered at home or taking them somewhere with familiar smells than taking them to the slaughter house. I believe that horses react to the pheromones released by frightened animals and the noise, rather than the blood.


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## unbalanced (20 January 2012)

Wagtail said:



			There is a big difference between having animals slaughtered at home or taking them somewhere with familiar smells than taking them to the slaughter house. I believe that horses react to the pheromones released by frightened animals and the noise, rather than the blood.
		
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That would make sense. My friend had her old mare shot at home and after the body was taken away she took her gelding (actually that mare's son) across where there was still blood to the field. He is the spookiest horse and if there had been anything to get upset about he would have done but he walked over it as if it were water.

My friend's horse was PTS by injection within sight of my mare. She was curious about what was happening and definitely knew it was unusual (tried to pull over there from where she was tied up being groomed on the far side of the yard). However she was more interested the way she would be interested in the feed shed or something going on in another field, rather than spooked or upset as she wasn't sensing stress from the other horse.


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## paisley (20 January 2012)

Wagtail said:



			I agree. Animals know what a slaughter house is. And not just the horses either. It is not so much the blood as the smell of fear. The pheromones released by frightened animals and the noise.
		
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I'm not going to disagree that horses are aware of pheromones/noise, although I would rather suspect if pigs were being slaughtered, it would have something to do with it (we lived near a pig farm, how well your horse behaved on a hack depended on which way the wind was blowing some days!)

But I've had to go to an equine abattoir on a regular basis, and as much some will always be convinced that it is horribly stressful environment for the horses, I do not feel this is the case. The horses wait in a barn, in pens, munching on hay and generally looking calm. I've seen far more unhappy horses at competitions. The stressed ones are usually young, clearly been out in a field up till then and probably just experienced their first lorry travel, so stress is not surprising.

I would never ever send mine to an abattoir, but I would understand if thats the choice for someone else


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## Tormenta (21 January 2012)

paisley said:



			I'm not going to disagree that horses are aware of pheromones/noise, although I would rather suspect if pigs were being slaughtered, it would have something to do with it (we lived near a pig farm, how well your horse behaved on a hack depended on which way the wind was blowing some days!)

But I've had to go to an equine abattoir on a regular basis, and as much some will always be convinced that it is horribly stressful environment for the horses, I do not feel this is the case. The horses wait in a barn, in pens, munching on hay and generally looking calm. I've seen far more unhappy horses at competitions. The stressed ones are usually young, clearly been out in a field up till then and probably just experienced their first lorry travel, so stress is not surprising.

I would never ever send mine to an abattoir, but I would understand if thats the choice for someone else
		
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I agree with you. With horses I think it really depends on their character and history. I have a gelding who is scared of strange men, he visibly stresses if someone unusual arrives (his past) although he is a good traveller I could not begin to imagine the stress he would go through at a mart or an abattoir holding, he really is a worrier. I have a mare who gets upset if I go on holiday, my last holiday was 3 years ago after I returned to an extremely stressed mare and a stressed person who was caring for her, within 48 hours she was calm and back to her usual routine. However, I have a mare at the moment who I swear could not give two hoots where she is as long as she is provided for. I feel quite sad for her because she seems 'shut down' to any emotion, not the first horse I have come across in that frame if mind, survival is their bare option, no attachment.

I am in no way saying anything derogatory about horses who go to the Hunt yard, I am more than sure that most of them go with pricked ears and excitement in their brain.


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## natalia (21 January 2012)

Our horses all know the kennels well as most of them hunt, we often meet there and they are well used to it. The flesh house is right in the the middle with a big bin outside (bit revolting) none of the horses have ever even snorted at it if we ride through the yard. It's also go other horses looking out the doors and the sound of the hounds, which if they have hunted, sets their blood going. It's not a bad place and certainly not a bad end.


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