# Would you buy?



## ycbm (23 October 2019)

I am very very tempted by a lovely foal that has come up for sale near me. I like him a lot, character, colour, shape, action, price.

But I know that his mother has been operated on for kissing spines and that it didn't resolve her issues with being ridden, which were probably caused by fetlock arthritis in the hind legs. She had done almost no real work before being retired to stud.

It feels as if it would be madness to buy him. Would it?  He really is my kind of horse!


.


----------



## milliepops (23 October 2019)

how old was the mare when the arthritis was noticed?
I am definitely one to take a punt on a horse if it's cheap enough and to outsiders I probably make some weird decisions but I probably would give that a swerve 
eta. Unless it's by something AMAZING in which case.... yeah!


----------



## HEM (23 October 2019)

Sorry but no, sometimes you do have to think with your head and not your heart as hard as that it 
But I guess as milliepops said it does also depend how good a price are we talking?


----------



## Amymay (23 October 2019)

If heâ€™s literally a couple of quid, why not.

Otherwise, not on your nelly.


----------



## ycbm (23 October 2019)

milliepops said:



			how old was the mare when the arthritis was noticed?
I am definitely one to take a punt on a horse if it's cheap enough and to outsiders I probably make some weird decisions but I probably would give that a swerve 
eta. Unless it's by something AMAZING in which case.... yeah!
		
Click to expand...


Mare was backed at six and retired two years later having done nothing to speak of meanwhile.

Cheap is max Â£1500, possibly less. I wish he was more, it would be easier to reject him. I keep trying to remind myself how much it will cost to get him to four even if nothing goes wrong with him.

Father is an unregistered backyard stallion, nice enough but nothing special. Mother is a reasonably well bred German warmblood.



.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (23 October 2019)

I wouldn't, even if he was being given away.  I think it is immoral to breed from a mare that has had to be retired because of arthritis, which is likely to be passed on to her offspring.  And he could end up costing you a great deal in vet bills and heartache.


----------



## Amymay (23 October 2019)

ycbm said:



			Mare was backed at six and retired two years later having done nothing to speak of meanwhile.

Cheap is max Â£1500, possibly less. I wish he was more, it would be easier to reject him. I keep trying to remind myself how much it will cost to get him to four even if nothing goes wrong with him.

Father is an unregistered backyard stallion, nice enough but nothing special. Mother is a reasonably well bred German warmblood.



.
		
Click to expand...

Ooooooo far to risky and far too much money.


----------



## PapaverFollis (23 October 2019)

Nope. Seems risky. Also wouldn't want to support someone breeding from a thoroughly broken down mare as that is morally dodgey to me.  Breeding from one that got injured, fine as long as she's sound enough to carry the foal... Breeding from one that just hasn't stood up to work? No.


----------



## HEM (23 October 2019)

ycbm said:



			Mare was backed at six and retired two years later having done nothing to speak of meanwhile.

Cheap is max Â£1500, possibly less. I wish he was more, it would be easier to reject him. I keep trying to remind myself how much it will cost to get him to four even if nothing goes wrong with him.

Father is an unregistered backyard stallion, nice enough but nothing special. Mother is a reasonably well bred German warmblood.



.
		
Click to expand...

Mothers history would worry me and Â£1500 is way more than I was expecting you to say!


----------



## ycbm (23 October 2019)

You're doing well guys, keep it up. He has really caught my eye. 

.


----------



## milliepops (23 October 2019)

ycbm said:



			Mare was backed at six and retired two years later having done nothing to speak of meanwhile.

Cheap is max Â£1500, possibly less. I wish he was more, it would be easier to reject him. I keep trying to remind myself how much it will cost to get him to four even if nothing goes wrong with him.

Father is an unregistered backyard stallion, nice enough but nothing special.



.
		
Click to expand...

with the extra detail, not for me. 
I am in a funny position of having a fairly young write off that is in foal at the mo but my vets felt they knew enough about her condition to make it no greater risk than any other mare, and I already knew quite a bit about what she was like to ride. Whereas this sounds a bit more iffy? and quite a risk. If it was by some megastar stallion then I would probably feel different because the lower price would bring an exciting prospect within reach financially but for it to be something ordinary and with a question mark over future soundness I don't think it would be a risk worth taking, personally.


----------



## ycbm (23 October 2019)

PapaverFollis said:



			Nope. Seems risky. Also wouldn't want to support someone breeding from a thoroughly broken down mare as that is morally dodgey to me.  Breeding from one that got injured, fine as long as she's sound enough to carry the foal... Breeding from one that just hasn't stood up to work? No.
		
Click to expand...


Great point. 

.


----------



## The Trooper (23 October 2019)

I wouldn't, for the same reason I wouldn't buy a dog from a puppy farm. I do not support irresponsible breeding of anything. 

The heightened possibility of arthritis would be enough to put the final nail in the coffin for me. Also as you have mentioned above, the financial costs and time costs to get a weanling to 4/broken/working nicely etc are very high for what could be a non existent career.

I am sure I read an article a while ago about how the ID breed is full arthritis due to some unscrupulous breeding practises. 

When someone asks me how much it costs me to keep a horse I say around Â£200 per month (where I am). So that is Â£10k+ before the horse is broken.


----------



## FestiveFuzz (23 October 2019)

I'm not hugely risk-averse in the right circumstances, but I wouldn't take a punt on this one for all the reasons already mentioned above.


----------



## honetpot (23 October 2019)

Sorry itâ€™s too much. My last project cost less than that, I do not pay not pay livery but getting him to four is not cheap.


----------



## ycbm (23 October 2019)

I keep my horses at home and in a way that means he would cost Â£3000 including his purchase price to get to three years old, if nothing went wrong.  And that would be about what he was worth backed and riding quietly, if he retains his movement, temperament, and grows straight. Having met him, I would buy him in a heartbeat if I did not know his mother.  He is extremely unusual, and finding a three year old like him would be a search for a needle in a haystack. I do love unusual!  I think he would make a wonderful horse for my final years of riding. 

Ah well, never mind.

.


----------



## ihatework (23 October 2019)

No I wouldnâ€™t, out of an unproven broken down dumb-blood for one, and I also donâ€™t support raising a foal without other youngstock - people do, obviously, but I donâ€™t think it does them any favours.


----------



## Flyermc (23 October 2019)

im not sure, i think id like to know if there was a reason for the fetlock arthritis. i know you mentioned that the horse hadnt done much, but could she have injured herself some how in the field? 
if you know her breeding, does she have any direct siblings out competing? could she have been badly shod for the 2 ridden years, or done alot of hard road work, after spending years doing nothing. Did her tack fit, or could she have been compensating for the rider for 2 years (being ridden wonkey in ill fitting tack for several years) would the sellers allow you look at the mares medical records/speak to there vet?


----------



## be positive (23 October 2019)

With most of the others, if the mare had been proven in some way maybe, if the stallion was also proven maybe but with one being a crock and the other possibly a crock with no evidence of anything to prove otherwise I would not want to risk the foal also being a crock by the time it is 6.

I think this type of breeding is exactly what we should be getting away from, horses are getting arthritis younger and younger often without doing any real work and not due to injuries, however smart they look on the surface so many seem to be ticking time bombs and break at the first sign of work.


----------



## ycbm (23 October 2019)

ihatework said:



			No I wouldnâ€™t, out of an unproven broken down dumb-blood for one, and I also donâ€™t support raising a foal without other youngstock - people do, obviously, but I donâ€™t think it does them any favours.
		
Click to expand...


Very good point. Maybe I should buy two ðŸ¤£. (not going to happen!)

OH has made his opinion VERY clear ðŸ˜‚

I'd better not go near the foal until he's sold, I hope he goes quickly.

.


----------



## luckyoldme (23 October 2019)

Well its like this.
I am the total idiot who psid 2000 for a broken down 18 year old gelding from a dodgy dealer..probably with dodgy dealer written on his sign post..it was all that obvious.
After 6 months of him trying to kill me and me crying my eyes out we went on to have 12 amazing years. He was bloody brilliant..and i would pay the same again to live it again.
So if you like the horse pay what he is worth to you..


----------



## Bellaboo18 (23 October 2019)

I wouldn't for all the reasons people have said but then I haven't seen him and fallen in love with him...


----------



## luckyoldme (23 October 2019)

Bellaboo18 said:



			I wouldn't for all the reasons people have said but then I haven't seen it and fallen in love with it...
		
Click to expand...

Hahaha..i would be in there kissing his nose and selling my grannys old jewellery to pay for him if it looked at me right! 
Thats not necessarily a good thing though.


----------



## Surbie (23 October 2019)

2 6yo at my yard, one PTS 2 weeks ago with multiple degenerative conditions in her back, the other going through lengthy rehab with osteoarthritis and hock issues. Both had thousands spent on them over the last year to find out what is wrong and then try to sort it out. Huge amounts of heartache with it too.
I would avoid, but hey I'm still a total novice at this stuff so I wouldn't buy anything with a question mark over it. Other than my loan horse who I worship.


----------



## Sasanaskyex (24 October 2019)

Another no, I might be a little more tempted if it was the stallion that had those issues and the mare was in good health, I don't know why I'm just running on the assumption that the foal takes more qualities from the dam than sire, but I still wouldn't be paying Â£1500 for it. If you can (?) follow his movements over the next few years and see if he's going well once ridden, maybe he'll end up back on the market at some point.


----------



## Auslander (24 October 2019)

When you say unusual, I assume you mean colour?
Put your sensible head on, and think about what you would advise someone less experienced, if they came to you and told you they wanted to buy a foal from a mare who hasn't stood up to work, by a stallion with no breeding to speak of - just because they liked the colour.


----------



## meandmyself (27 October 2019)

You'd be mad to buy him. 

Share his ad? I'm sure we can all convince you that it's a bonkers idea.


----------



## Equi (27 October 2019)

The price for what it is is much too high, had it been cheaper massively I would maybe have been swayed. Realistically any foal can break despite great breeding but one with proven history on dam and no history on dad for that money may be a step too far.


----------



## Asha (27 October 2019)

A cheap foal costs the same to keep as an expensive one . So regardless of cost it would be a massive no from me . 
Iâ€™m actually surprised your even considering it .


----------



## View (27 October 2019)

And it's a NO from me.

Too many horses are being bred from broken down mares.


----------



## daydreamer (27 October 2019)

Yes my youngsters field mate was bred from a bad tempered broken 5yo dam. She had major feet and tendon issues. He is very sweet (although she never told him off so he is quite mouthy and Iâ€™ve seen him rear when he doesnâ€™t get his own way) but has the worst feet I have ever seen, completely upright and one front foot is totally boxy. The farrier doesnâ€™t think he will stay sound in work. No one understands why they bred from her.


----------



## AdorableAlice (27 October 2019)

Pedigree -  By Useless out of Broken.  It is a no from me regarding purchasing the foal, even it is stunningly well put together.


----------



## ycbm (27 October 2019)

AdorableAlice said:



			Pedigree -  By Useless out of Broken.
		
Click to expand...


ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£


----------



## ycbm (27 October 2019)

I know the question sounds daft, but I know him in person, not from an ad, and I really think he's quite a horse. I sort of wish I didn't know his parents' history, but I do and I can't unknow it ðŸ¤ª

I think I've managed to let you all put me off. Well done guys!


----------



## AdorableAlice (27 October 2019)

ycbm said:



			I know the question sounds daft, but I know him in person, not from an ad, and I really think he's quite a horse. I sort of wish I didn't know his parents' history, but I do and I can't unknow it ðŸ¤ª

I think I've managed to let you all put me off. Well done guys!
		
Click to expand...

This is where it gets difficult isn't it.  If you had no idea of parentage and were simply looking at the foal's conformation and movement is it good enough to buy ?

How many of us know how our horses are bred, there will be plenty that don't and plenty that have 'dodgy' parentage for various reasons.  We have a stunning heavyweight show hunter that went to HOY's twice, his book is blank, not a clue how he is bred other than Irish and his parents must have been very orange.  He isn't particularly sound and never has been, there is no way he was an 'accidental' covering but whoever bred him chose not to record the parentage on his passport.  I have often wondered why.


----------



## meandmyself (27 October 2019)

Put a reasonable but low offer in? Sounds like you see something in him... 

Would love to see a pic though honestly!


----------



## ycbm (27 October 2019)

No pictures. It wouldn't be fair to the seller to identify the foal. Besides which, I don't have any, I know him in person and he's delightful.  Buyers can see the mare with him and ask about her when he is advertised.

.

.


----------



## ycbm (27 October 2019)

AdorableAlice said:



			This is where it gets difficult isn't it.  If you had no idea of parentage and were simply looking at the foal's conformation and movement is it good enough to buy ?
		
Click to expand...


Definitely. He's a lovely, square, straight, big relaxed movement, open-jointed,  beautifully coloured fellow with a delightful temperament.

No, no, I'm going to sit on my hands and hope he sells. Someone's going to really love him.

.


----------



## Clodagh (28 October 2019)

ycbm said:



			Definitely. He's a lovely, square, straight, big relaxed movement, open-jointed,  beautifully coloured fellow with a delightful temperament.

No, no, I'm going to sit on my hands and hope he sells. Someone's going to really love him.

.
		
Click to expand...

I keep hearing that he is a lovely colour. I like boring colours anyway, but I was always told 'if it was brown all over would you still want it?'
Pretty colours do not a sound horse make!


----------



## ycbm (28 October 2019)

Clodagh said:



			I keep hearing that he is a lovely colour. I like boring colours anyway, but I was always told 'if it was brown all over would you still want it?'
Pretty colours do not a sound horse make!
		
Click to expand...


Did you miss




			He's a lovely, square, straight, big relaxed movement, open-jointed, ..... fellow with a delightful temperament.
		
Click to expand...

???

ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£


----------



## Clodagh (28 October 2019)

I also saw...


ycbm said:



			I am very very tempted by a lovely foal that has come up for sale near me. I like him a lot,,..., colour, .


.
		
Click to expand...




ycbm said:



			He is extremely unusual, 

.
		
Click to expand...




ycbm said:



			,  beautifully coloured fellow 

.
		
Click to expand...

I too can edit quotes!


----------



## maisyelliott (30 October 2019)

HEM said:



			Sorry but no, sometimes you do have to think with your head and not your heart as hard as that it
But I guess as milliepops said it does also depend how good a price are we talking?
		
Click to expand...

even if it is a good price youâ€™ve got to think about the price of upkeep as well particularly if you have other horses and breaking and training a youngster is far from easy as well. Itâ€™s not just the initial cost you have to consider but the upkeep and the time as well, is this horse worth the amount of upkeep and time?


----------



## ycbm (4 November 2019)

I thought I  knew a good horse when I saw one. Sold within hours of being put up for sale to the first viewer at full asking price. Hopefully he'll go on to great things, but at least I can stop sitting on my hands now ðŸ˜.


.


----------



## Auslander (5 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			I thought I  knew a good horse when I saw one. Sold within hours of being put up for sale to the first viewer at full asking price. Hopefully he'll go on to great things, but at least I can stop sitting on my hands now ðŸ˜.


.
		
Click to expand...

Sold within hours doesn't mean he's going to be long term sound/do a decent job for someone. I hope he does, but don't question yourself just because someone else liked him too!


----------



## dogatemysalad (5 November 2019)

Oh bum. I didn't reply to this thread earlier, but I thought you should go for it. Following your previous posts, you have a good eye and the knowledge to bring a youngster on. I'm a big believer in listening to your gut.


----------



## ycbm (5 November 2019)

I'm pleased, really. At my age I dont need a young horse hanging around for four years before he can do any work. I told myself I could buy him if he didn't sell by Christmas!

.


----------



## tallyho! (5 November 2019)

Classic! My horse doesn't seem to be working so I must breed from it. What's wrong with people???

Sorry ycbm but... walk away. Oh whoops - forgot to check page 2...

You've done the right thing! Just think of all the vets bills you've just saved!


----------



## ycbm (5 November 2019)

tallyho! said:



			Classic! My horse doesn't seem to be working so I must breed from it. What's wrong with people???

Sorry ycbm but... walk away.
		
Click to expand...


Keep up at the back there, TH  ðŸ¤£


----------



## Errin Paddywack (5 November 2019)

Now he's sold can we see a picture of him please? Longing to know what colour he is.


----------



## ycbm (5 November 2019)

No, sorry ErinP, it wouldn't be fair on the new owner to identify him. 

.


----------



## Errin Paddywack (6 November 2019)

Fair enough.


----------



## tallyho! (6 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			Keep up at the back there, TH  ðŸ¤£
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


----------



## tristar (8 November 2019)

phew !  i am relieved

gaud you love a challenge, but who knows how it will work out, hope its good for him


----------



## Violet (11 November 2019)

"Father is an unregistered backyard stallion"

A lot of competition classes now requires recognised breeding details. It might be a reason why he is unregistered, failing a stallion inspection due to health issues etc.
Definitely wouldn't buy anything bred from arthritic hock changes parents.
Why pay out for keeping and training a horse 5-6 years and then and up with the same possible outcome.


----------



## ycbm (11 November 2019)

Father is a very nice stallion who has never been tested for registration, just kept as an entire by farming folk for breeding by natural covering. His lack of registration wouldn't bother me, I've had two, possibly three, broken warmbloods by Grand Prix level sires with strong pedigrees. And my current four year old is possibly the most talented horse I've ever ridden and also has an unregistered father from a similar background. 

What competitions other than specific breed classes require registered parentage?

PS foal was sold  a week ago to first viewer, see post above. 

.


----------



## Errin Paddywack (12 November 2019)

ycbm, I agree with you.  If the stallion is a good one that is all that matters.


----------



## pinkypug1 (12 November 2019)

Most folk now a days are more concerned with the names in the passport  rather than what the horse Actually looks like and how it moves.  Known degenerative issues would however be a red flag


----------



## JanetGeorge (15 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			I am very very tempted by a lovely foal that has come up for sale near me. I like him a lot, character, colour, shape, action, price.

But I know that his mother has been operated on for kissing spines and that it didn't resolve her issues with being ridden, which were probably caused by fetlock arthritis in the hind legs. She had done almost no real work before being retired to stud.

It feels as if it would be madness to buy him. Would it?  He really is my kind of horse!


.
		
Click to expand...


I had an unpapered mare (probably 3/4TB) who hunted for 3 seasons as huntsman's horse and was sound as a pound.  She had 6 foals, 5 by my RID stallion and one by the Arab H Tobago.  I stopped breeding from her when I discovered that one of her foals had KS (severe), then another, then another.  I still have 2 youngsters out of her, 1 an IDx, theother by the Arab, and they have x-rayed clear, and the first is still working as a police hose in South Wales.  So - a 50% chance of Kissing spines.would be MORE than enough to put me off the foal.


----------



## ycbm (15 November 2019)

It was your mare I had most in mind JG. Vets insist kissing spines isn't genetic, but being tall or short is, so why would it not be?

.


----------



## luckyoldme (15 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			I'm pleased, really. At my age I dont need a young horse hanging around for four years before he can do any work. I told myself I could buy him if he didn't sell by Christmas!

.
		
Click to expand...

Poor little horse..bet hes desperate for a new home with someone who loves him 
ðŸ˜¬


----------



## JanetGeorge (15 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			It was your mare I had most in mind JG. Vets insist kissing spines isn't genetic, but being tall or short is, so why would it not be?

.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly!  There may be other causes other than genetic - but a 50-50 chance - my vet agrees it usually is, lol.  (Mind you, vets LOVE kissing spines - x-rays, surgery, rehab, more surgery etc etc etc. )


----------



## cundlegreen (16 November 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			Exactly!  There may be other causes other than genetic - but a 50-50 chance - my vet agrees it usually is, lol.  (Mind you, vets LOVE kissing spines - x-rays, surgery, rehab, more surgery etc etc etc. )
		
Click to expand...

A vet at NEH also said KS was genetic.


----------



## conniegirl (17 November 2019)

Violet said:



			A lot of competition classes now requires recognised breeding details.
		
Click to expand...

Other than breed specific showing classes I donâ€™t know of any competitions that require registered breeding.
Dressage, showjumping a eventing donâ€™t, showing in classes like the hunter or riding horse classes doesnâ€™t, le trek, polo, horseball, horse back archery donâ€™t, most of the western classes donâ€™t (again only breed specific classes need registration).


----------



## tristar (19 November 2019)

on mainland europe most horses competing or being bred from will require to be of known origines, origines constatee and be registered  or cannot compete, except at a lower level, its going that way all over, you no have the papers you no can register to compete aff you no can register foals,  even if they are well bred

im all for taking a chance on something i like, but would i breed from it, probably no, my current stallion was tested till 6 years thoroughly,  by me,has the best of bloodlines all through, every line is top class, and still going strong at 19, but he has no warmblood, no cold blood, for me they appear to be the main source of soundness problems

many id horses have a to short verified pedigree for my tastes, many i  looked at had no breeding at all for the grandmother,  and dubious grading status, not thorough enough or genuine. their debut in the competition arena is fairly recent compared say to arabs and tbs

i can trace my stallion bloodlines and horses i have bred back for hundreds of years, some go back thousands but no need to worry that far, and i take great pleasure when i touch them and think of sort of touching those wonderful horses from the past in my present horses and love reading about them


----------



## molar roller (24 November 2019)

it is a hard decision, the brain fights against heart 
I'm a TB guy, so my point might be strange.
I'd try to look at the pedigree. If there is not any inbreeding in the first 4 generations (if it is 5 better) that is good news. Each breed has its own genetic pool. Purearabians have a large genetic pool (as Worldwide, not he UK), TB has a big genetic pool but Mecklenburg horse might have a smaller genetic pool.

my reply is : it depends on the breed if there is an outcrossing effect, I'd try my chance.


----------



## Marigold4 (17 December 2019)

ycbm said:



			I keep my horses at home and in a way that means he would cost Â£3000 including his purchase price to get to three years old, if nothing went wrong.  And that would be about what he was worth backed and riding quietly, if he retains his movement, temperament, and grows straight. Having met him, I would buy him in a heartbeat if I did not know his mother.  He is extremely unusual, and finding a three year old like him would be a search for a needle in a haystack. I do love unusual!  I think he would make a wonderful horse for my final years of riding.

Ah well, never mind.

.
		
Click to expand...

I tok in a mare with kiso needed a home and was in a bit of a state. I was later offered her son. I had same concerns. Had him x4-63: as a


ycbm said:



			I keep my horses at home and in a way that means he would cost Â£3000 including his purchase price to get to three years old, if nothing went wrong.  And that would be about what he was worth backed and riding quietly, if he retains his movement, temperament, and grows straight. Having met him, I would buy him in a heartbeat if I did not know his mother.  He is extremely unusual, and finding a three year old like him would be a search for a needle in a haystack. I do love unusual!  I think he would make a wonderful horse for my final years of riding.

Ah well, never mind.

.
		
Click to expand...

I took in a mare with quite serious kissing spines who needed a home. I was later offered her very nice offspring as a two year old. Had him x-rayed before I brought him home as a 2-year old and x-rays clear with good gaps between processes. Repeated x-rays now he is rising 4. Vet said they don't come much better than this later set of x-rays and he x-rays lots of expensive youngstock. I just thought I'd put it out there that just because the mother has it, doesn't always mean son has. I guess the arthritis is a different issue though but could be result of hard riding in wrong conditiions?


----------



## Dwyran_gold (13 February 2020)

It’s hard to say, hereditary arthritis can show up at any age so many people will buy foals from a sound mare without knowing of any predispositions.. X


----------

