# TB stallions with super strong back ends



## LizzieRC1313 (7 January 2017)

Have asked similar before but asking again cause slightly different criteria now. 

Looking for pure TB, back end of mare is weakest so needs excellent conformation especially in hind legs. 
Forward, bold type for eventing. 

Foal to keep. 

Alternatively - anywhere that stands multiple TB stallions? There's a lot of places that provide semen but generally they're TBx or WB. 

TIA


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## Charlie007 (7 January 2017)

My tb has a super strong back end. He is by Dubawi .


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## PorkChop (7 January 2017)

Probably miles away from you, but my friend has the most super TB stallion, called My Eclipse, well proven by Shaab.

http://www.trenerthequestrian.com/resident-stallion.html


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## PorkChop (7 January 2017)

Here is a picture of one of ours by My Eclipse


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## jules9203 (7 January 2017)

My TB mare has a super strong back end and she is by Bandmaster. The other off spring of his that I have seen have been similar build - http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10040901


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## Springs (7 January 2017)

You could look at Spring's Spirit, not a full TB, but very high at 75%, he's competing at 1* eventing and young stock are showing great promise in eventing.


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## Meowy Catkin (8 January 2017)

Springs said:



			You could look at Spring's Spirit, not a full TB, but very high at 75%, he's competing at 1* eventing and young stock are showing great promise in eventing.
		
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Advertising your own horse again I see.


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## Springs (8 January 2017)

Faracat said:



			Advertising your own horse again I see.
		
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No just responding to a post on the forum.

If you want to know more about advertising drop me a PM and I'll let you have all the details etc


Many Thanks for your support


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## popsdosh (8 January 2017)

Springs said:



			You could look at Spring's Spirit, not a full TB, but very high at 75%, he's competing at 1* eventing and young stock are showing great promise in eventing.
		
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The op has a criteria they are looking for and your guy does not full fill that. Having seen him yesterday I can honestly say he wasnt what I was expecting ! Better leave it at that.


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## Meowy Catkin (8 January 2017)

Springs said:



			No just responding to a post on the forum.

If you want to know more about advertising drop me a PM and I'll let you have all the details etc


Many Thanks for your support
		
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I'm not supporting you, I'm actually a little narked that some very valuable forum members who own stallions have been hauled over the coals for mentioning their horses, even in passing, yet you are constantly promoting your own stallion without any comeback. It just takes a look at your previous posts to see that you aren't really interested in taking part in this forum properly, it's mainly just to promote your own horse.


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## Springs (8 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			The op has a criteria they are looking for and your guy does not full fill that. Having seen him yesterday I can honestly say he wasnt what I was expecting ! Better leave it at that.
		
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you never just know and the op may have an interest and thanks for the negative comment, add that to the 30 positive ones we had I'll take that as a positive coming from you.

Thank you for your support.


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## Springs (8 January 2017)

Faracat said:



			I'm not supporting you, I'm actually a little narked that some very valuable forum members who own stallions have been hauled over the coals for mentioning their horses, even in passing, yet you are constantly promoting your own stallion without any comeback. It just takes a look at your previous posts to see that you aren't really interested in taking part in this forum properly, it's mainly just to promote your own horse.
		
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Its a shame if your narked and like many other posters I have also had some run in with Admin over posts. I think you will find that according to the rules you can respond to a post. I leave this for you to ponder. 

At one time the forum was the place to go for chat and information but that's changed in recent years with Facebook and Twitter etc and so the valued forum members have reduced over the years, some have also left due to the trolls or faceless people who hide behind the key pad. So with above in mind please excuse me if I not on this forum 24/7 doing my knitting waiting for a post to respond to. Many Thanks for your support.


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## millitiger (8 January 2017)

Where we are missing the studs like Louella now.

Primitive Proposal is still standing and in my experience throws lovely, big, very sporty eventing types.


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## Springs (8 January 2017)

millitiger said:



			Where we are missing the studs like Louella now.

Primitive Proposal is still standing and in my experience throws lovely, big, very sporty eventing types.
		
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I liked Louella, shame they closed.


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## Alec Swan (8 January 2017)

Springs said:



			.. . I think you will find that according to the rules you can respond to a post. I leave this for you to ponder. 

.. .
		
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On your behalf,  and that of others,  I've asked Admin for clarification.  

As has been pointed out by popsdosh,  the OP is looking for a Thoroughbred,  not a part-bred.

To the OP,  I'd imagine that the best place to look for such a horse would be in Ireland,  but so few of the studs out there have websites,  often no internet connection,  and any sensible camera salesman should make a killing!  For most out there,  chilled,  frozen and shipping seem to be quite beyond them!  

The Irish don't seem big on promotion,  sadly and tend to rely upon their reputations and word of mouth!  The best of the TBs though,  are still standing in the Emerald Isle,  I suspect.

It's such a shame that the best NH stallions are still commanding fees which are beyond the sport horse breeder.  I remain convinced that if TB blood is what's needed,  then just any-old TB won't do,  it's horses with proven records which are needed.

Alec.


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## popsdosh (8 January 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			On your behalf,  and that of others,  I've asked Admin for clarification.  

As has been pointed out by popsdosh,  the OP is looking for a Thoroughbred,  not a part-bred.

To the OP,  I'd imagine that the best place to look for such a horse would be in Ireland,  but so few of the studs out there have websites,  often no internet connection,  and any sensible camera salesman should make a killing!  For most out there,  chilled,  frozen and shipping seem to be quite beyond them!  

The Irish don't seem big on promotion,  sadly and tend to rely upon their reputations and word of mouth!  The best of the TBs though,  are still standing in the Emerald Isle,  I suspect.

It's such a shame that the best NH stallions are still commanding fees which are beyond the sport horse breeder.  I remain convinced that if TB blood is what's needed,  then just any-old TB won't do,  it's horses with proven records which are needed.

Alec.
		
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Indeed that used to be the joy of SHBGB in a previous incarnation was it not!

Bandmaster is a lovely big TB follow the link  Primitive Proposal also standing there 

http://www.vauterhillstud.co.uk/stallions.html


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## popsdosh (8 January 2017)

This one also will do your job nicely.

http://harthillstud.com/stallions/power-blade/


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## AdorableAlice (8 January 2017)

I looked at Sirens Missile a couple of years ago.  Not overly tall but a really lovely strong stamp.  I was also impressed by Bandmaster.  For me Springs Spirit has no depth or strength.  I like the conformation on Sugarfoot too, but he is an old boy and natural only, plus chestnut and I am not keen on chestnut horses so I passed him by when I was looking.


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## popsdosh (9 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			stamp.   For me Springs Spirit has no depth or strength.
		
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For what its worth that was what surprised me in the flesh as out of all the stallions there he looked by far the most immature! Particularly in depth of chest and spring to the rib.  Springs, if he was mine and you are serious about marketing him you need to reevaluate where your aiming and maybe listen to some breeders looking to breed event horses . To be honest personally with TB mares I am looking towards good SJ or dressage stallions with some blood still in their pedigree . There were several nice candidates yesterday as there was some lovely bred european young stallions ,I was so pleased I went as I went expecting to use Jaguar mail and actually realised he wouldnt suit my mares . I am extremely saddened to say I did not see one British bred stallion that got me half interested.


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## LizzieRC1313 (9 January 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			To the OP,  I'd imagine that the best place to look for such a horse would be in Ireland,  but so few of the studs out there have websites,  often no internet connection,  and any sensible camera salesman should make a killing!  For most out there,  chilled,  frozen and shipping seem to be quite beyond them!  

The Irish don't seem big on promotion,  sadly and tend to rely upon their reputations and word of mouth!  The best of the TBs though,  are still standing in the Emerald Isle,  I suspect.

It's such a shame that the best NH stallions are still commanding fees which are beyond the sport horse breeder.  I remain convinced that if TB blood is what's needed,  then just any-old TB won't do,  it's horses with proven records which are needed.

Alec.
		
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Thanks for replies folks. Entirely agree Alec. I'm sure you're right. Weston Justice is probably my favourite but he's only 15/16th - although unlikely that 1/16 will make a huge difference. some other great suggestions to look into - the same names always crop up on these TB stallion threads. I love the look of PP but get put off him every time I look into him, just not convinced he's as great as his sire was. Thanks again.


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## LizzieRC1313 (9 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			This one also will do your job nicely.

http://harthillstud.com/stallions/power-blade/

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He is very nice. Thank you.


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## TB Sportshorses (9 January 2017)

Sula Blue is full TB and eventing at 3* level


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## Gingerbear (10 January 2017)

I have been looking for similar as need more blood and to lighten my heavy WB mare. I have been looking at Sula Blue, Revolution, Kings Composer, Power Blade and Primitive Proposal. I was at the stallion show at the weekend and was a little disappointed and surprised with the selection presented, Jaguar Mail looked a little heavy in his frame, but for 20 years old I suppose that's ok. Spring's Spirit looks very thoroughbred and was very athletic, with a good behind over the fences which I like. Exclusive and Future Gravitas was nice but not enough blood. A little more research is needed after the weekend on final short list I think.


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## popsdosh (10 January 2017)

I thought that for a modern warmblood type  NIc Nac quality I think will go a long way  to me he was the standout of the young jumping type ones, there was a lot of interest in him after his display and the poor boy did that having been travelling for 7 hrs having left his stable in Belgium at 4am. Like I said above I went to see JM in the flesh and was glad I did however having large NH type mares realised he was not really going to suit.
Exclusive caught my eye too and I will say at least he has proved himself eventing having 89 points(won an Int) as a seven year old is no mean feet and reasonably priced considering the pricing of some


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## JJS (10 January 2017)

millitiger said:



			Where we are missing the studs like Louella now.

Primitive Proposal is still standing and in my experience throws lovely, big, very sporty eventing types.
		
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I have no personal experience of breeding, but I do know someone who used Primitive Proposal. The filly was out of a 17.2 mare and is barely 15 hands at rising five. Of course, she could have a few more inches in her yet, and I do think she is the exception rather than the rule, but be aware that he can throw significantly smaller than himself too.


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## millitiger (10 January 2017)

JJS said:



			I have no personal experience of breeding, but I do know someone who used Primitive Proposal. The filly was out of a 17.2 mare and is barely 15 hands at rising five. Of course, she could have a few more inches in her yet, and I do think she is the exception rather than the rule, but be aware that he can throw significantly smaller than himself too.
		
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I've known a good many PP and that certainly sounds an exception!


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## sallyf (10 January 2017)

millitiger said:



			I've known a good many PP and that certainly sounds an exception!
		
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The one we had here for a client also didn't grow and has just been pts with a kissing spine issue and a very quirky temperament which he had right from when he was born.
Primitive rising his sire could throw small too
Mares subsequent foal by a much smaller TB stallion was bigger at 9 months old than her half brother at 3 and had a much nicer temperament too despite her being a chestnut filly and him a bay gelding


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## Clodagh (10 January 2017)

Springs Spirit gets suggested for every mare on here, like whippets in AAD!
My pennies worth is an ex forum member on here used Kings Composer and got a lovely horse. I don't actually know if he is still alive!


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## Alec Swan (10 January 2017)

It's an entirely pointless exercise considering the stallion to be used,  if we don't also consider the mare.

There is no stallion born which will improve upon a rubbish mare. .. just saying! 

Alec.

ets.  And further;  "My mare is weak behind,  she's .. her listed failings".  Any foal that she produces will most likely also follow her faults and failings.


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## popsdosh (10 January 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			It's an entirely pointless exercise considering the stallion to be used,  if we don't also consider the mare.

There is no stallion born which will improve upon a rubbish mare. &#8230;&#8230;.. just saying! 

Alec.

ets.  And further;  "My mare is weak behind,  she's &#8230;&#8230;.. her listed failings".  Any foal that she produces will most likely also follow her faults and failings.
		
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You are stating the obvious to be sure. Ive got into enough trouble recently so thank you!   In my mind if your mare is not of the quality that you would use as a stallion whats the point,however many dont agree because stallions are miracle workers.


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## Asha (11 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			For what its worth that was what surprised me in the flesh as out of all the stallions there he looked by far the most immature! Particularly in depth of chest and spring to the rib.  Springs, if he was mine and you are serious about marketing him you need to reevaluate where your aiming and maybe listen to some breeders looking to breed event horses . To be honest personally with TB mares I am looking towards good SJ or dressage stallions with some blood still in their pedigree . There were several nice candidates yesterday as there was some lovely bred european young stallions ,I was so pleased I went as I went expecting to use Jaguar mail and actually realised he wouldnt suit my mares . I am extremely saddened to say I did not see one British bred stallion that got me half interested.
		
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interesting you should say that ref jaguar mail. I had convinced myself on paper that I would use him on one of my mares ( a couple of years ago ) Went to see him in the flesh and couldn't have been more wrong. I was gutted ! I had 2 mares at the time, he wouldn't have suited either. I ended up going back to a stallion used before. Sadly she didn't get in foal again. Just goes to show the importance of meeting /seeing the stallions in the flesh.

I didn't go to the stallion show this time, who was the stand out for you this year ?


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## popsdosh (11 January 2017)

Asha said:



			interesting you should say that ref jaguar mail. I had convinced myself on paper that I would use him on one of my mares ( a couple of years ago ) Went to see him in the flesh and couldn't have been more wrong. I was gutted ! I had 2 mares at the time, he wouldn't have suited either. I ended up going back to a stallion used before. Sadly she didn't get in foal again. Just goes to show the importance of meeting /seeing the stallions in the flesh.

I didn't go to the stallion show this time, who was the stand out for you this year ?
		
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Nic Nac Quality he came over from Belgium(that morning) ,I think he will go a long way which has given him the kiss of death.Details on Elitestallions website.  By Kannan out of a Clinton mare whose full sister is jumping grand prix in the states. He had lovely movement as well only a four yo closely followed by Sir Shutterfly.  I am looking for eventers but prefer to find a nice jumping stallion with good movement to cover all bases rather than use stallions that event already as there onto full TB mares of NH breeding.


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## TheMule (11 January 2017)

Asha said:



			interesting you should say that ref jaguar mail. I had convinced myself on paper that I would use him on one of my mares ( a couple of years ago ) Went to see him in the flesh and couldn't have been more wrong. I was gutted ! I had 2 mares at the time, he wouldn't have suited either. I ended up going back to a stallion used before. Sadly she didn't get in foal again. Just goes to show the importance of meeting /seeing the stallions in the flesh.

I didn't go to the stallion show this time, who was the stand out for you this year ?
		
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I would love to br brave enough to use JM because I love what he produces but can't see him ever suiting my mares! He doesn't throw to his own type, if that helps, but they all look really straightforwards bold rides xc and are certainly athletic.
Exclusive is a very interesting eventing stallion for a TB mare, Future Gravitas doesn't quite do it for me but I can't really put my finger on why. I liked some of the young jumpers- Nic Nac Quality is a really serious horse but hardly any blood for eventing, I really liked the NPS stallions, my favourite being the Plot Blue 4yr old who I think would get eventers because he is rideable and very scopey but smooth over a fence. I used Escape Z on my mare last year and am delighted as he is a proper turbo charged little jumper with flawless technique and huge scope whilst staying rideable and adjustable


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## Asha (11 January 2017)

TheMule said:



			I would love to br brave enough to use JM because I love what he produces but can't see him ever suiting my mares! He doesn't throw to his own type, if that helps, but they all look really straightforwards bold rides xc and are certainly athletic.
Exclusive is a very interesting eventing stallion for a TB mare, Future Gravitas doesn't quite do it for me but I can't really put my finger on why. I liked some of the young jumpers- Nic Nac Quality is a really serious horse but hardly any blood for eventing, I really liked the NPS stallions, my favourite being the Plot Blue 4yr old who I think would get eventers because he is rideable and very scopey but smooth over a fence. I used Escape Z on my mare last year and am delighted as he is a proper turbo charged little jumper with flawless technique and huge scope whilst staying rideable and adjustable
		
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I've just looked up Nic Nac, he looks very exciting on paper, what a mix Kannan, Clinton and Heartbreaker !

Also Escape looks a great type too, and seems to be getting good results in the ring too. These two almost makes me sad ive given up breeding. Good luck with yours


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## KautoStar1 (11 January 2017)

How about Andes.  Dead now but frozen still available.


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## Springs (11 January 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Springs Spirit gets suggested for every mare on here, like whippets in AAD!
My pennies worth is an ex forum member on here used Kings Composer and got a lovely horse. I don't actually know if he is still alive!
		
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A little rude here are we not?

We only respond to suitable matches and the reason why he's suggested more that others is because the others are not bothering! but there is no reason why not they can not if they just follow the pinned post from Sticky in the acceptable use of the breeding board under point 4 and 5.

Many Thanks for your support


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## ester (11 January 2017)

Springs said:



			A little rude here are we not?

We only respond to suitable matches and the reason why he's suggested more that others is because the others are not bothering! but there is no reason why not they can not if they just follow the pinned post from Sticky in the acceptable use of the breeding board under point 4 and 5.

Many Thanks for your support 

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Oh quit with the many thanks for your support already! :rolleyes3:

You only respond to suitable matches... really... when someone specifically says they want a TB you think yours being 75% is therefore a suitable match :rolleyes3:. 

You can respond as much as you like but there's not need to get smarmy when people point out that you have a financial incentive for your suggestion when you don't point it out yourself.


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## popsdosh (11 January 2017)

Springs said:



			A little rude here are we not?

We only respond to suitable matches and the reason why he's suggested more that others is because the others are not bothering! but there is no reason why not they can not if they just follow the pinned post from Sticky in the acceptable use of the breeding board under point 4 and 5.

Many Thanks for your support 

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Come on your missing an opportunity ,you know you want TOO!   
https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/showthread.php?742447-SJ-Stallion-recommendations-please

You must be very thick skinned or just delete the 'Skinned'
The more you push your fella to unsuitable mares the more you run the risk of him being pulled to pieces. However it must be awkward as I dont know what mare would suit.

Many thanks


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## Springs (11 January 2017)

ester said:



			Oh quit with the many thanks for your support already! :rolleyes3:

You only respond to suitable matches... really... when someone specifically says they want a TB you think yours being 75% is therefore a suitable match :rolleyes3:. 

You can respond as much as you like but there's not need to get smarmy when people point out that you have a financial incentive for your suggestion when you don't point it out yourself.
		
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Dear Ester,

Thanks for your reply.

I believe the OP was looking for this 

"pure TB, back end of mare is weakest so needs excellent conformation especially in hind legs. 
 Forward, bold type for eventing" 

They have now indicated a 7/8 TB as their choice which I which them every luck with. So in my view I believe this is a reasonable match and suitable for contributing to the post as we have everything except the full TB. 

Now if I believe he is suitable for a mare then I will recommend again.

Kind Regards and Many Thanks for your support for British Breeding


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## JDH01 (11 January 2017)

I have a very nice 7/8 TB mare by Royal Storm (TB) stands in Ireland, she has an excellent physique inc hind end.  Possibly worth a look, his progeny are starting to event


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## popsdosh (11 January 2017)

Springs said:



			I believe the OP was looking for this 

"pure TB, back end of mare is weakest so needs excellent conformation especially in hind legs. 
 Forward, bold type for eventing" 

They have now indicated a 7/8 TB as their choice which I which them every luck with. So in my view I believe this is a reasonable match and suitable for contributing to the post as we have everything except the full TB.
		
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Where to start ? IMO he full fills none of those criteria. I think the biggest mistake is trying to set him up as an event horse as you cannot hide a BE record and to be honest Es on his record and only one proper point on his record does not suggest Forward bold type to me! Your up against horses like Exclusive who are producing the goods at the same age 89 points 20th Le lion and whats more hes cheaper.
 Why ? have you not put him forward for grading SHGB  I can guess why . I only entertain Stallions put forward at public gradings it puts some transparency into the decisions.


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## Springs (12 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Come on your missing an opportunity ,you know you want TOO!   
https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/showthread.php?742447-SJ-Stallion-recommendations-please

You must be very thick skinned or just delete the 'Skinned'
The more you push your fella to unsuitable mares the more you run the risk of him being pulled to pieces. However it must be awkward as I dont know what mare would suit.

Many thanks 

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Dear Popsdosh,

Many thanks for your thoughts and support. Your quite entitled to your own opinion as to the suitability of the boy for different types of mares as this is a public forum, but luckily for me this is just your own opinion and that of a couple of others who seem to jump, but you are in the minority as there are a large number of people who's opinions differ, quite considerably and so much so they have been returning more than once 

Many Thanks for supporting British Breeding


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## popsdosh (12 January 2017)

Springs said:



			Dear Popsdosh,

Many thanks for your thoughts and support. Your quite entitled to your own opinion as to the suitability of the boy for different types of mares as this is a public forum, but luckily for me this is just your own opinion and that of a couple of others who seem to jump, but you are in the minority as there are a large number of people who's opinions differ, quite considerably and so much so they have been returning more than once 

Many Thanks for supporting British Breeding
		
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I have yet to meet one!


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## Springs (12 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Where to start ? IMO he full fills none of those criteria. I think the biggest mistake is trying to set him up as an event horse as you cannot hide a BE record and to be honest Es on his record and only one proper point on his record does not suggest Forward bold type to me! Your up against horses like Exclusive who are producing the goods at the same age 89 points 20th Le lion and whats more hes cheaper.
 Why ? have you not put him forward for grading SHGB  I can guess why . I only entertain Stallions put forward at public gradings it puts some transparency into the decisions.
		
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Dear POPSDOSH

There is a story behind every horses record and if you take time to investigate the story will unfold, yes he is about a year behind where we would like him to be but that's all part of the story. Exclusive did great in getting to Le Lion, however he had a run out and so finished 43rd, Emily was quite disappointed. Exclusive fees are more expensive and they do not offer a LFG. Exclusives breeding is quite different and so generally a different market or type. 

The boy is graded with Breeders Elite and as they have now been accepted in to the WBFSH the covering certificates can be used in any stud book. He does have a full set of X-rays. We have been invited by another top UK stud book to join them but at this time we can not see any benefits to us or our customers. 

But its not all about the stallion, its about what they produce and to date they have all been quite good. 

Many Thanks


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## Springs (12 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I have yet to meet one! 

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That's a shame, but don't worry I'm sure you will at some point.


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## popsdosh (12 January 2017)

I will beg to differ on fees as yours carries quite considerable collection and delivery fees over £150 every time. They ship semen from europe substantially less than that.

Indeed I look forward to see if there is any improvement this season that may change my view.


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## Maesfen (12 January 2017)

I have to say, when I was looking at SS some years ago for a mare, the main thing that put me off was his stud fee alone, which was far too high (IMHO) for a stallion who had done nothing at all let alone the charges on top of that.


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## ihatework (12 January 2017)

Maesfen said:



			I have to say, when I was looking at SS some years ago for a mare, the main thing that put me off was his stud fee alone, which was far too high (IMHO) for a stallion who had done nothing at all let alone the charges on top of that.
		
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Completely agree. Springs sire was pretty rubbish - I followed him with interest as at the time my Kings Composer who was almost identical in type and breeding was also under saddle. Thankfully mine was a gelding so couldn't pass on his genes and ended up on the hunting field.

If I was going out to use a British bred, part bred, event horse currently out eventing, with in the region of £600 in my pocket there are much more attractive propositions out there, Britanias Mail and Philanderer to name a couple.


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## Avonbrook (12 January 2017)

A bit off my beaten track, but I have really liked Sula Blue when I used to see him at the stallion parade when it was at Hartpury.  I finally have a mare on lease here to use with my boy that I might sensibly use him on in the future.  A friend whose judgement I respect has a very nice Native Ruler youngster from a mare that I like but don't love.

What I don't know is whether either would suit the mare belonging to the OP.  I always insist that people wanting to use my stallion see him either at home or competing.  I prefer to have the opportunity of meeting them too.


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## Springs (12 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I will beg to differ on fees as yours carries quite considerable collection and delivery fees over £150 every time. They ship semen from europe substantially less than that.

Indeed I look forward to see if there is any improvement this season that may change my view.
		
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Dear P

I have had a look at the collection/delivery fees and yep with the VAT they would be over £150 by a whopping £2.50. Out of interest I have had a look at other where they are published and these are the second highest but there's only around £10 difference between the leading providers I looked at, which if your worried by £10 you really should reconsider breeding as its a lottery. 

The one thing I can say is the collection centre we use works to the highest standards and only ships out the highest quality semen which for the customer is paramount, nothing worse than a mare ready to go and dead or poor quality semen.

I'll talk about deliveries form Europe another time as this is a subject in its own right, especially with the Brexit and the impact of pound to Euro shifting by 20%

Many thanks


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## AdorableAlice (12 January 2017)

Springs said:



			Dear P

I have had a look at the collection/delivery fees and yep with the VAT they would be over £150 by a whopping £2.50. Out of interest I have had a look at other where they are published and these are the second highest but there's only around £10 difference between the leading providers I looked at, which if your worried by £10 you really should reconsider breeding as its a lottery. 

The one thing I can say is the collection centre we use works to the highest standards and only ships out the highest quality semen which for the customer is paramount, nothing worse than a mare ready to go and dead or poor quality semen.

I'll talk about deliveries form Europe another time as this is a subject in its own right, especially with the Brexit and the impact of pound to Euro shifting by 20%

Many thanks
		
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You will find that mare owners will pay top price for top stallions, why would they want to pay top dollar for a mediocre stallion ?  Regardless of your collection centre I would hope your horse is producing the highest quality semen each and every time because if he isn't he should not be standing at stud.


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## Springs (12 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			You will find that mare owners will pay top price for top stallions, why would they want to pay top dollar for a mediocre stallion ?  Regardless of your collection centre I would hope your horse is producing the highest quality semen each and every time because if he isn't he should not be standing at stud.
		
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Dear Ali's, yes that's right but good quality seamen can be distoryer by poor unhygienic collection, incorrect processing, wrong type of extender and temperature control. ? 

I hope this helps you understand what quality means as getting it wrong wastes money and we don't want that, not good for customers, reputation or the industry. 

Many thanks for you valued contribution and always great to talk to a keyboard warrior


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## ester (12 January 2017)

Can one be called a keyboard warrior when one is as experienced in real life as most of the responders on this thread are?! It is usually a term reserved for people that have no clue unless hidden behind a screen...


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## popsdosh (12 January 2017)

Springs said:



			Dear Ali's, yes that's right but good quality seamen can be distoryer by poor unhygienic collection, incorrect processing, wrong type of extender and temperature control. ? 

I hope this helps you understand what quality means as getting it wrong wastes money and we don't want that, not good for customers, reputation or the industry. 

Many thanks for you valued contribution and always great to talk to a keyboard warrior
		
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How effing patronising ,we all understand the breeding industry and are all aware of the reasons for poor quality for somebody who is so keen on this and lectures on the subject its a shame you dont always use the same objectivity all the time .I try not to look on things with rose tinted spectacles. There are also other things that could be considered a waste of money ,however if we get that choice wrong the poor thing we bring into the world has to live with the consequences.


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## Springs (12 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			How effing patronising ,we all understand the breeding industry and are all aware of the reasons for poor quality for somebody who is so keen on this and lectures on the subject its a shame you dont always use the same objectivity all the time .I try not to look on things with rose tinted spectacles. There are also other things that could be considered a waste of money ,however if we get that choice wrong the poor thing we bring into the world has to live with the consequences.
		
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Dear P,

This is the first sensible point you have said in some respects. 

I do enjoy this forum now its so much fun and passes the dark nights away. all we are missing is Ken!

Many Thanks









Many Thanks


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## Springs (12 January 2017)

ester said:



			Can one be called a keyboard warrior when one is as experienced in real life as most of the responders on this thread are?! It is usually a term reserved for people that have no clue unless hidden behind a screen...
		
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Hi Ester,

I think the definition on a key board warrior is someone who hides behind the keyboard launching attacks on others either hidden by a none descript name or from the security of the internet. It has nothing to with levels of competence, knowledge or how professional you are.

I hope this helps with your under standing of the jargon.


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## Springs (12 January 2017)

Maesfen said:



			I have to say, when I was looking at SS some years ago for a mare, the main thing that put me off was his stud fee alone, which was far too high (IMHO) for a stallion who had done nothing at all let alone the charges on top of that.
		
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Yep some times we raised the fees on S Symp depending on what he was doing and customer demand. We also offered concessions so that could have been an option but its in the past now.

Many Thanks for your comment


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## Springs (12 January 2017)

ihatework said:



			Completely agree. Springs sire was pretty rubbish - I followed him with interest as at the time my Kings Composer who was almost identical in type and breeding was also under saddle. Thankfully mine was a gelding so couldn't pass on his genes and ended up on the hunting field.

If I was going out to use a British bred, part bred, event horse currently out eventing, with in the region of £600 in my pocket there are much more attractive propositions out there, Britanias Mail and Philanderer to name a couple.
		
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Yes your quite right SSymp did do rubbish, this however should not be reflected on the horse but on the approach to his training with a professional rider at the time, but that's a long story. We did geld him but on reflection his limited young stock have been selling for what we consider exceptional prices! 

Many Thanks for your support


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## cundlegreen (12 January 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Springs Spirit gets suggested for every mare on here, like whippets in AAD!
My pennies worth is an ex forum member on here used Kings Composer and got a lovely horse. I don't actually know if he is still alive!
		
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FWIW, here is a video I took of Kings Composer some years ago. He throws a lot of show horses, but the one I bred by him wasn't very big (first foal) and looked more of a Show Jumper in his technique. Was also a bit of a lad, although performed well enough under saddle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iUa0BjKAks


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## cundlegreen (13 January 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			It's an entirely pointless exercise considering the stallion to be used,  if we don't also consider the mare.

There is no stallion born which will improve upon a rubbish mare. &#8230;&#8230;.. just saying! 

Alec.

.
		
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So sorry Alec, but that isn't always the case. My welsh D stallion has thrown  super sorts onto some really rubbish conformation mares. Examples below, the first being a bay TB mare with a very low set neck and a club foot. She had two crackers, both got High first Premiums, and are lovely people
Mare.....





Two siblings.....











Second TB mare, upside down neck, v straight hocks (my stallion has these as well), and almost horizontal hind pasterns, although these did improve after she had her first foal. Also a stresshead, and totally failed even to get on the track. Her first foal by my boy got placed at the Badminton Grassroots Championships last year.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH_DOQYzRAM&t=198s


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## LizzieRC1313 (14 January 2017)

Unfortunate that this thread has turned into quite the debate!!!

Cundlegreen- although I support the buy dont breed campaigns and generally do think we should breed from decent mares, some reading around recently has made me question how much is down to luck. I've seen a lot of people say they had top class mares and stallions and still ended up with a crocked goal. 

I absolutely don't agree that a rubbish mare should be bred from year on year with the hope that the foals will sell, but I suppose if someone wants to try their luck & is in the position to keep then it's only themselves that will be affected emotionally and financially if it goes wrong.

Just a thought - and not the point of the thread. 

Will be looking at power blade & Weston justice - they're both lovely!


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## TheMule (15 January 2017)

I have 3 by Weston Justice and they're all super straightforward types with a great work ethic. Love my 3 mares! They also have very powerful back ends with a super jump technique


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## LizzieRC1313 (15 January 2017)

TheMule said:



			I have 3 by Weston Justice and they're all super straightforward types with a great work ethic. Love my 3 mares! They also have very powerful back ends with a super jump technique
		
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They sound wonderful! Would love to see pics if you have any? What was the mare like?


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## popsdosh (15 January 2017)

LizzieRC1313 said:



			Unfortunate that this thread has turned into quite the debate!!!

Cundlegreen- although I support the buy dont breed campaigns and generally do think we should breed from decent mares, some reading around recently has made me question how much is down to luck. I've seen a lot of people say they had top class mares and stallions and still ended up with a crocked goal. 

I absolutely don't agree that a rubbish mare should be bred from year on year with the hope that the foals will sell, but I suppose if someone wants to try their luck & is in the position to keep then it's only themselves that will be affected emotionally and financially if it goes wrong.

Just a thought - and not the point of the thread. 

Will be looking at power blade & Weston justice - they're both lovely!
		
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I first got into breeding by putting an Irish vanner mare I had to the local HIS stallion she bred an absolute cracker . over the years she went to various stallions and always something special appeared they all went on to affiliated careers. She had her last foal at 29 which went on to win the speed Derby at Hickstead. If it wasnt for her I would not be doing it today as some of my mares carry a little piece of her. Luckily we are not stopped from breeding whatever we want. However to the contrary I usually advocate to people the opposite as in general a lot dont give it enough thought when they set out and the mare is by far the biggest influence in the mix by a long way.


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## millitiger (15 January 2017)

I thought Weston Justice had retired?


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## TheMule (15 January 2017)

He's available frozen

This is a homebred mare out of a full Trakehner. She has a cracking jump- really neat and careful with massive scope.






This is a rising 5yr old out of a TB mare. Love this little horse- she's as bold as they come and very sweet and easy, though she has a bit about her. She loves her jumping and is a proper event type






This is a rising 4yr old out of a full Trakhener mare. She's just starting to be backed and is proving very easy so far


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## LizzieRC1313 (15 January 2017)

Gosh they're lovely - thank you so much for photos! The middle mare is right up my street! 

Popsdosh yes I agree. What a great story re your mare - did you just use her as a broodmare or was she a star in her own right?


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## popsdosh (16 January 2017)

LizzieRC1313 said:



			Gosh they're lovely - thank you so much for photos! The middle mare is right up my street! 

Popsdosh yes I agree. What a great story re your mare - did you just use her as a broodmare or was she a star in her own right?
		
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She came to me by chance an old lady had her and went into hospital and I took her in as you do. She was 16/17 then . She lived another 14yrs having a foal every year up until she was 29. She was not a star by any stretch of the imagination. A lot would not have given her house room however the rest is history. Never once in all the time I had her was she ever sick or sorry. She left such a dynasty behind her ,this has brought back such memories I will try and find a picture of her.


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## Clodagh (16 January 2017)

I used to love the HIS stallion parades. Mum and Dad had a percheron x tb mare who Dad hunted and they bred 2 foals using HIS stallions. Off topic again, sorry OP!


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