# Leading problems with stubborn foal / yearling - Advice Please?



## Stormy123456 (10 February 2014)

Hi,

Our 10 month old youngster has taken a bit of an objection to leading. He has been lead from early on as a foal, but has recently got a little stubborn and difficult. I want to sort this problem before he gets any bigger - as he's already nearly 15hh.  

He is absolutely fine to lead out, and has been for wanders down our long drive and from the fields to the stables, and loves to come in and have a brush and watch what is going on in the stables. But he is a pain to get back out into the field. The field isn't that far away but he starts to plant as soon as he leaves the stables. He is stubborn and just will not move. He's got a lovely character and is very easy in every other way.

We don't deal with that many youngsters - so I'm looking for some advice on the best way to tackle it?


----------



## Patterdale (10 February 2014)

Take a long schooling whip and flick him on the bum when he refuses to go. 

You have to be firm and confident with youngsters or they will just royally take the piss their whole lives. 

You REALLY don't want this to escalate, so get some help from someone experienced if you don't get it cracked quickly.


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (10 February 2014)

Always lead with a long rope and give give a whirl with it if you need to,  do not allow any nonsense, ever. If he rears up in front of you any time, rap him hard [neck or shoulder] with the rope.
If you know where he is going to nap, place a helper with a lunge whip behind and give him crack, expect him to over-react, but just carry on, this is not a drama for him.
Do not take him for wanders, he  can wander in his field but when you are in charge, there is no wandering.
Make sure he leads from the shoulder, your shoulder, his shoulder, none of this "I lead,  you follow" nonsense. He is big, you are small, he must learn respect.
Horses work on body language, you  need to make sure he knows who is boss.
Make sure he is properly trained in his stable, he is not allowed to walk all over you, he has to move when you ask. You can think about brushing him tied up as his next lesson in life.
if you think you are being hard on him, it is not likely, his mother would make sure he behaved, now it is your turn.


----------



## Stormy123456 (10 February 2014)

Thank you both. That's great; just what I was after.


----------



## twiggy2 (10 February 2014)

the above is all sensible advice, I would also question if there is a reason for him not wanting to go back out in the field


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (10 February 2014)

twiggy2 said:



			the above is all sensible advice, I would also question if there is a reason for him not wanting to go back out in the field
		
Click to expand...

Very unlikely that there is any reason other than napping. Regardless,  he has to do what he is told.


----------



## HBM1 (10 February 2014)

You may think that, but from his point of view it may be different.  Is he leaving others when he leads back out? He is only a youngster so reassure him lots. I turn mine in a circle too if they plant. Planting is very different to rearing so doesn't always need the sbove responses. .but I agree any potentially dangerous behaviour needs nipping in the bud.


----------



## JillA (10 February 2014)

And ensure he understands about pressure and release - the INSTANT he offers forwards in response to the pressure you are putting on his lead rope make sure you release that pressure. Then, if he plants, apply the pressure, and if necessary from an angle, first one side then the other to unstick his feet. After a few "sticky" sessions he will have got the message and his planting won't have been reinforced in any way.
It's a training issue IMO - if there is something he doesn't like, he still has to know he must move in response to the pressure. He can tell you he doesn't like it in other ways.


----------



## Patterdale (10 February 2014)

HBM1 said:



			You may think that, but from his point of view it may be different.  Is he leaving others when he leads back out? He is only a youngster so reassure him lots. I turn mine in a circle too if they plant. Planting is very different to rearing so doesn't always need the sbove responses. .but I agree any potentially dangerous behaviour needs nipping in the bud.
		
Click to expand...

I disagree. 
Even if a horse is a bit scared it needs to do as its told. To take the 'oh well, he's a bit scared bless him' attitude is a one way street to disaster. 

Be kind, but don't take no for an answer.


----------



## twiggy2 (10 February 2014)

MrsD123 said:



			Very unlikely that there is any reason other than napping. Regardless,  he has to do what he is told.
		
Click to expand...

very black and white answer, not sure it sits well with me, I agree a horse should do as it is told, however if he is going out to a field to be alone or where he gets bullied, maybe there is no forage so he is cold and hungry out there then resolving the problem he is having will resolve the problem the OP is having with him without resorting to force. win win outcome to me.

we have a mare at work that is a nightmare to bring in if people get lazy and start bringing her in to a stable with food/hay in it-when the stable was empty for a few days and she was left without for 30 mins when she came in the bad behaviour stopped, much easier to try and work out if there is a reason for behaviour and out think a horse. pick your battles and all that.

OP I am not saying the above are reasons for him not wanting to go out but more that it may be worth looking at things from his perspective and thinking outside the box-if he has enough to eat in the field and feels safe out there why would he be trying not to go there?


----------



## Stormy123456 (10 February 2014)

twiggy2 said:



			very black and white answer, not sure it sits well with me, I agree a horse should do as it is told, however if he is going out to a field to be alone or where he gets bullied, maybe there is no forage so he is cold and hungry out there then resolving the problem he is having will resolve the problem the OP is having with him without resorting to force. win win outcome to me.

we have a mare at work that is a nightmare to bring in if people get lazy and start bringing her in to a stable with food/hay in it-when the stable was empty for a few days and she was left without for 30 mins when she came in the bad behaviour stopped, much easier to try and work out if there is a reason for behaviour and out think a horse. pick your battles and all that.

OP I am not saying the above are reasons for him not wanting to go out but more that it may be worth looking at things from his perspective and thinking outside the box-if he has enough to eat in the field and feels safe out there why would he be trying not to go there?
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, I have thought this.. but, he is not alone, and does it whether he is leaving horses, following horses or going to a different field. He has ad lib haylage and water, although not rugged has good shelter and a large field. He is not bullied and is a happy chappy otherwise. Once he is through the gate he doesnt do it. It's not the electric as it only runs from one side of the gate and we turn it off when moving the horses about.

He does not rear, just refuses to move.


----------



## Tiddlypom (10 February 2014)

My homebred filly went through a stage of doing this when she was a yearling. She would just plant herself, and when I asked her to walk on, she looked at me as if to say 'Make me!'.

So I did! I whirled the lead rope and got her feet moving, in circles at first, until she realised that co operating was a lot more comfortable. It was a stage that blew itself out in a few days, but had I babied her and let her get away with it, I would now have a rising 3 year old who knew that she could boss me around. Instead, I have a well mannered youngster who respects me.

She has the occasional 'moment', like any youngster, but ultimately she knows that I am in charge and settles again very quickly.

Good luck with your youngster, they all have their bolshy moments, it's just down to us handlers to work through them calmly and authoritatively!


----------



## twiggy2 (10 February 2014)

Stormy123456 said:



			Thanks, I have thought this.. but, he is not alone, and does it whether he is leaving horses, following horses or going to a different field. He has ad lib haylage and water, although not rugged has good shelter and a large field. He is not bullied and is a happy chappy otherwise. Once he is through the gate he doesnt do it. It's not the electric as it only runs from one side of the gate and we turn it off when moving the horses about.

He does not rear, just refuses to move.
		
Click to expand...

sounds like you have covered the options regarding him having issues, in which case I would make him move those feet-for what it is worth my mare was a 'planter' as a 2yr old and at times as a three year old-she was made to move her feet by making it easier to move where I wanted than to stay still-these days as a rising 7yr old she is great to ride and has been hacked alone since she was backed at the beginning of last year and if something scares her she stops, looks and carries on-stopping is her default if scared and it gives her time to think, listening and deal with a situation then face it and move past-much nicer in they long run than a panicker that turns and runs


----------



## Rollin (10 February 2014)

All of my youngsters have gone through a phase of planting when turned out.  I have found they hate muddy gateways, which usually coincide with weaning.  They all come good in the end.

My French John Lyons trainer, always uses a schooling whip with a plastic bag or plastic strips on the end, as a giddy up.  Also very useful for loading.


----------



## Spring Feather (10 February 2014)

twiggy2 said:



			the above is all sensible advice, I would also question if there is a reason for him not wanting to go back out in the field
		
Click to expand...

Lol most of ours are like this once they start going out and about seeing and doing things!  They have fun out of the field and then plant when you try to put them back in.  We don't allow this to escalate either and always have someone behind the foal/yearling who will clap their hands very loudly if the foal puts the stoppers on.  It always fixes the problem straight away as it's a little quirk that should never be allowed to continue.


----------



## Patterdale (10 February 2014)

My horse was a planter when he was 2....but only for ten mins 

I think it's far better to come down on things like this HARD the first time, rather than do the gently-gently-please-do-as-I-say-horsey for the next 2 years. 

Mine is rising 5 now, he had his backside blue piped that day but I've never ever EVER had the problem again. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't advocate beating horses willy nilly, but a horse who knows his boundaries and has respect for his handler is a happy horse. 
A horse who is never sure where the line is and is constantly being nagged/allowed to get away with things is not.

I've started many, many young horses, and a swift well timed tap is an invaluable tool. Do it right and you usually only do it once. 
One of the main skills of training young horses is the timing of your reprimands and your praise.


----------



## AengusOg (10 February 2014)

Best to teach him to yield to pressure, as has been suggested by one poster already. This lesson should take about three minutes to teach, and will persuade him to walk on when asked, setting him up for all his further training.

If you get confrontational with him, he may give you further problems through fear or simply misunderstanding your motives.


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (10 February 2014)

We had about 400 foals born on the stud, they all walked in hand, I don't recall blue pipes to hand, but a no nonsense approach seemed to work.


----------



## Dry Rot (10 February 2014)

I once used a block and tackle. I could lead that horse anywhere after that with a piece of binder twine. He was convinced I was stronger than he was! When he was sold, the purchaser asked if he had travelled. I replied that he had never even seen a trailer before but did not anticipate any problems, He walked on as if he had been doing it all his life.

Not a method I would recommend but it worked. I agree with MrsD123. No need for alkathene but no need for faffing around either. Some do plant and asking them nicely won't cut it even though they have been taught pressure-and-release. I've since used a variation of the technique to load a mare who was notorious for rearing at the ramp. That one ended up self loading on command, but it did take a few weeks!


----------



## HBM1 (10 February 2014)

Patterdale said:



			I disagree. 
Even if a horse is a bit scared it needs to do as its told. To take the 'oh well, he's a bit scared bless him' attitude is a one way street to disaster. 

Be kind, but don't take no for an answer.
		
Click to expand...

But that isn't what I was saying at all.  What I was saying is it is important to know if he is scared of something (ie leaving his herd to go out), or just being obstinate.  I have never raised any of my youngsters with the "oh bless him woolly bear" attitude - and all are well mannered and confident.  What I do understand though, is that sometimes babies, and he IS a baby at 10 months, see the world differently than we would sometimes want them to.  I keep my colts, and none are difficult to handle and all are well behaved and confident, and that is because I helped them to develop that as babies.


----------



## twiggy2 (10 February 2014)

HBM1 said:



			But that isn't what I was saying at all.  What I was saying is it is important to know if he is scared of something (ie leaving his herd to go out), or just being obstinate.  I have never raised any of my youngsters with the "oh bless him woolly bear" attitude - and all are well mannered and confident.  What I do understand though, is that sometimes babies, and he IS a baby at 10 months, see the world differently than we would sometimes want them to.  I keep my colts, and none are difficult to handle and all are well behaved and confident, and that is because I helped them to develop that as babies.
		
Click to expand...

you mean you did not hit them at the first sign of not doing what you asked when you asked regardless of why they did not respond instantly? then you must be a namby pampy

I am with you-I like to know if there is fair reason for an unwanted behaviour and want to build trust with my horse-does not mean she walks all over me. same a t work I deal with difficult horses as other people wont/don't we always end up working as a team and that's how it should be not that they do what I want through fear/force


----------



## Patterdale (10 February 2014)

MrsD123 said:



			I don't recall blue pipes to hand, but a no nonsense approach seemed to work.
		
Click to expand...

The perils of living on a cattle farm....! There may not be a schooling whip to hand in every gateway but there's sure to be a bit of alkathene 

I don't go searching out big sticks, but on this occasion he'd planted in a gateway (just to see if he could) and started to run backwards when I told him to get on with it, so I picked up what was there and tapped his bum. He sprang forward and off we went, but I didn't put my pipe down and after a bit he tried again. This time he got a whack. And off we went. 

I've never ever had to hit him again, nor would I ever want to. He's far too much of a sweetie now and I'm sure he'd walk off a cliff if I asked him to nicely because he's my fwend and he trusts me. But only because I've always made him go, and the lions in the hedge haven't got him yet..!



HBM1 said:



			But that isn't what I was saying at all.  What I was saying is it is important to know if he is scared of something (ie leaving his herd to go out), or just being obstinate.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry if you feel I misunderstood 
I don't disagree that its important to work out WHY the horse won't go, whether he's just being stubborn, doesn't like his field, doesn't want to leave his friends etc etc - I'm just saying that whatever the reason, it doesn't change the fact that they have to go where you say, when you say. 
As long as you're not asking too much (and I don't consider walking to the field to be too much) then there's no excuse to not go forward.


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (10 February 2014)

You can't spend too much time with this thinking business when a quick response is what is needed 95 % of the time.


----------



## Dry Rot (11 February 2014)

My worry with hitting is that you may inadvertently create a nervous reaction to any sudden movement associated with lifting your weapon (alkathene or hand, whatever) and bringing it down on the unfortunate animal's backside!

I'd prefer to administer discomfort by a steady pull on a rope which is relieved immediately the horse shows any inclination to move, perhaps even as little as shifting it's weight. But keep a sharp knife handy.

When someone mentions hitting I think of the plumber who was called out to repair a boiler. He looked at it for 30 seconds, then hit it hard with a hammer and promptly presented the house wife with a bill for £150. The housewife was outraged because "It only took you 30 seconds and all you did was hit it with a hammer!"

The plumber explained that he only charged £2 for hitting the boiler. The other £148 was for his forty years experience that taught him where to hit it and how hard. I suspect some of those advising here are a bit like that plumber and know where and how hard through very long experience! Don't try this at home, folks!


----------



## Patterdale (11 February 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			The plumber explained that he only charged £2 for hitting the boiler. The other £148 was for his forty years experience that taught him where to hit it and how hard. I suspect some of those advising here are a bit like that plumber and know where and how hard through very long experience! Don't try this at home, folks!

Click to expand...

I tried to write this but couldn't word it properly. You're very correct Dry Rot - as usual!


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (11 February 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			My worry with hitting is that you may inadvertently create a nervous reaction to any sudden movement associated with lifting your weapon (alkathene or hand, whatever) and bringing it down on the unfortunate animal's backside!

I'd prefer to administer discomfort by a steady pull on a rope which is relieved immediately the horse shows any inclination to move, perhaps even as little as shifting it's weight. But keep a sharp knife handy.


When someone mentions hitting I think of the plumber who was called out to repair a boiler. He looked at it for 30 seconds, then hit it hard with a hammer and promptly presented the house wife with a bill for £150. The housewife was outraged because "It only took you 30 seconds and all you did was hit it with a hammer!"

The plumber explained that he only charged £2 for hitting the boiler. The other £148 was for his forty years experience that taught him where to hit it and how hard. I suspect some of those advising here are a bit like that plumber and know where and how hard through very long experience! Don't try this at home, folks!

Click to expand...

He is not allowed to associate you, his handler with "Cruella Deville"


----------



## Dry Rot (11 February 2014)

MrsD123 said:



			He is not allowed to associate you, his handler with "Cruella Deville"
		
Click to expand...


Who? Moi? I would never do such a thing...would I??:angel:

I have a problem child here (7 months). Something frightened him and he came bowling out of the field shelter, as foals do. Bang! Straight into a fairly new straining post which he broke at ground level. He limped for about 20 minutes and is fine now but the post has had to be replaced. Highlands are tough! The only thing that was different to usual, in his eyes, was me on the scene. So guess who is to blame? I think he is beginning to like me again but it has been struggle.


----------



## Megibo (13 February 2014)

Will probably get stick for this...
but we had a 16 month old filly was possibly a bit older, good girl and quiet etc but when we moved yards decided she was going to plant all the way down to the field for ages and only move a few steps a time..field is a 5 minute walk away! Plus I take 2 out at a time so not having any hands free didn't help the matter. 
So after a few days of this I started taking a schooling whip with me and smacking her across the bottom each time she stopped. After a few smacks...problem solved. No more planting after that!


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (13 February 2014)

Megibo said:



			Will probably get stick for this...
but we had a 16 month old filly was possibly a bit older, good girl and quiet etc but when we moved yards decided she was going to plant all the way down to the field for ages and only move a few steps a time..field is a 5 minute walk away! Plus I take 2 out at a time so not having any hands free didn't help the matter. 
So after a few days of this I started taking a schooling whip with me and smacking her across the bottom each time she stopped. After a few smacks...problem solved. No more planting after that!
		
Click to expand...

Not just stick, but a BLUE PIPE!


----------



## Kallibear (13 February 2014)

Patterdale said:



			My horse was a planter when he was 2....but only for ten mins 

I think it's far better to come down on things like this HARD the first time, rather than do the gently-gently-please-do-as-I-say-horsey for the next 2 years. 

Mine is rising 5 now, he had his backside blue piped that day but I've never ever EVER had the problem again. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't advocate beating horses willy nilly, but a horse who knows his boundaries and has respect for his handler is a happy horse. 
A horse who is never sure where the line is and is constantly being nagged/allowed to get away with things is not.

I've started many, many young horses, and a swift well timed tap is an invaluable tool. Do it right and you usually only do it once. 
One of the main skills of training young horses is the timing of your reprimands and your praise.
		
Click to expand...

This is what I did. I was quite happy that there was no genuine reason for him planting but that he just didn't want to. Sorry,  but that's not acceptable.  So he got his bum properly smacked with the end of the long rope,  got a hell of a shock, bucked up his attitude and never did it again.


----------



## Rogue (9 January 2017)

My 16 month colt is exactly the same. Great to bring back from the field and the other day I've started taking him on roads, he was great. But now he's getting even more stubborn and won't move from the barn and even stopped still whilst on a walk too! I want to work this issue before he gets older &#128517;


----------

