# Chemical castration



## Leo Walker (28 March 2014)

Has anyone had this done? I've done my research and the reality isnt quite how its advertised! If I go ahead it CANT be removed and can last for up to 2 years which isnt great if it has negative side effects, but I am absolutely at the end of my tether with my 2.5yr old whippety lurcher weeing in the house. I am as sure as I can be its based in some sort of anxiety. I have on occasions "fixed" it, only for it to start again a couple of days later. 

Hes generally an anxious dog, lovely natured and uber confident in a lot of situations, but is a genuine princess. A change in routine sends him into a tail spin! I do have a behaviourist involved, and have had her input from him being young, but we are all stumped as to how to fix this! We thought we had sorted it by separating him from my other dog, and that worked for about a fortnight, then I screwed up and didnt lock the baby gate properly and they were together and now despite being apart for over a week hes still bloody weeing all over! This is despite him getting on well with my other doog, so no real need for dramatics!

The behaviourist is a bit hesitant to neuter him as the drop in testosterone can cause anxiety problems and she recommended chemical castration, but then I looked into it, and it cant be removed, so if it makes things worse we are stuck with it for a long time!


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## CAYLA (29 March 2014)

Is he scenting or squatting? Is this only when you leave the home or when you are at home? Im not sure a chemical castration would work unless its to combat constant scenting.


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## twiggy2 (29 March 2014)

I would just go for a standard castration, if he is as sensitive as you say then maybe the rise and fall in testosterone levels at various time affects him too? 
castrated he is less of an issue for your other dog potentially and there must be some friction there if you have to keep them apart to stop the peeing.

maybe a plan to move forward, castrate, routine, regular feeding time, regular excersise-blah blah (bet you have been through this with behavourist)
failing that maybe you are not the right home for this dog if he is anxious enough to pee everywhere after being with the other dog that lives in the same house maybe he needs to be in a home with no other dogs and a really fixed routine.


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## planete (29 March 2014)

My vet offered me chemical castration which lasts only three or four weeks. Cost:  £73.00.  This is an injection, not an implant.  I would get more information on what is available first.  I know you are under stress but castration is irreversible, expensive and traumatic, and yes, it could make him worse.  Castrating an adult dog is usually straightforward but there can be complications as I found out when my latest foster was done.
Cayla is asking you the right questions to start working out what is going on.  A much better way to tackle the problem.


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## Leo Walker (29 March 2014)

He had horrendous SA as an adolescent. We worked through that and didn't have any problems for a long time. The other dog was introduced and again no problem. 9 months on and I moved him 200 miles to live with my OH. He had mild SA again for about 3 weeks or so, then settled. He's always been crated but we are living in a tiny 1 bed cottage and there simply isn't room for crates!

He doesn't always do it. He's left for 3 hours 4 days a week and nearly 7 hours 4 days the next week. We used to have a dog walker for the 7 hour weeks but it seemed to make him worse?!

When he does it he's always alone, it's always more than once and it's usually small amounts. The reason we separated them when we are out is because when we were out my bitch was getting on to the bed and not letting him on the bed. This was causing him to get himself in a stress. And he was marking downstairs so it took him away from his favourite places to go.

Nothing for over a fortnight then I forgot to shut the dog gate one day and it started all over again 

He's raw fed and we work hard at keeping him stimulated mentally and physically. He's a very happy little dog. Seems happy enough to be left and takes himself off to bed when I'm getting ready to leave. Is usually still asleep when I get back etc.


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## Leo Walker (29 March 2014)

We have 2 sofas, the bed and 3 dog beds so he shouldn't be getting stressed about beds but he wants to be in our bed. We've had to work really hard with him to get him to sleep in his own bed on a night, but he has accepted that now, although 3am most nights he still tries to sneak in!

It's not an option that we aren't the right home for him! If that's the case now I will make whatever changes are necessary to make us the right home!


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## CAYLA (29 March 2014)

It sounds like he is a sensitive soul and the least bit disturbance in his routine sets him off again. I totally understand where you are coming from re the walking making him worse, as some dogs with severe SA cling to any bit of human attentions they can in the extreme and sometimes the dog walker/someone coming in can worsen it, it is best to let them ride through with lone time in a continued routine.
It does sound like taking the secure space away has also added to the issue (crate) but as you say there is now no room, is there however a room he can remain in to reduce the area he is left in once more? like the kitchen? generally the greater the SA and the bigger the space given/left in the more the issue can manifest it's self.
I would trial a (tightly fitting thunder shirt) and a DAP plug in and maybe even slowly introduce some skull cap and valerian for a trial period, as it does sound like a distress behaviour. If however he is cocking his leg over everything then castration may be the way forward, but you can rule out a few things first. I would first downsize his space anyway you can, and try the shirt and calmers.
PS, to add, thunder shirt on at times when you are in the home and not just when he is left also.


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## Leo Walker (29 March 2014)

I think its the change in routine week to week which is really bothering him, but my partner works shifts, so cant change that. Hes in the bedroom which is the only room in the house with a door, downstairs is open plan, so that leaves the bedroom as our only other room. He then gets into our bed and burrows under the duvet, which is usually his preferred place to be whether we are here or not

I did have the crates up when we first moved but after 2yrs of being happy in one he kept breaking out, howling, destroying his bed etc and we couldnt fit the furniture in with them! He settled as soon as he was out. He was then fine for ages. 

The DAP, thundershirt/valerian combo was what we used with the initial SA. Hes been back on the valerian for a while, I think for about a week before he started again. But I will try him with the thundershirt and plug a DAP in and see if that helps. I'm also going to talk to the vet about prescription medication for anxiety for him

What I really need is an au pair, someone to sit with Dylan all day and do my housework too


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## Tiddlypom (29 March 2014)

I had the implant put in my 9 year old JRT a few months ago (think it was 5 months). 

He is an in-your-face bossy little toad, and I wanted to test the effects of a full surgical castration to see if it would settle him. It has worked very well, as he is a calmer version of the same dog and is definitely easier around other dogs now. I haven't noticed any unwanted side effects (though obviously his crown jewels have shrunk somewhat).

He will have a surgical castration when the implant has worn off (we were told 6 months).

All the best with your lad.


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## gunnergundog (29 March 2014)

If you are in any doubt that his behaviour is anxiety/fear based then I wouldn't consider castration at all.......chemical or otherwise.  I know quite a few fear aggressive dogs that were castrated by mistaken but well-meaning owners;  the end result in every case was that either the dog ended up being PTS or the problem got worse.

PS  Another option may be to try Zyklene


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## JanetGeorge (29 March 2014)

Tiddlypom said:



			I had the implant put in my 9 year old JRT a few months ago (think it was 5 months). 

He is an in-your-face bossy little toad, and I wanted to test the effects of a full surgical castration to see if it would settle him. It has worked very well, as he is a calmer version of the same dog and is definitely easier around other dogs now. I haven't noticed any unwanted side effects (though obviously his crown jewels have shrunk somewhat).

He will have a surgical castration when the implant has worn off (we were told 6 months).
		
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The implant may take years to work off.  My JRx and Springer (both whole males) HATED each other with a pashion.  They were constantly fighting.  So I got the implant put into both of them to see if it would reduce their macho behaviour - that was about 3 years ago!

They continued to hate each other and fight at every opportunity.  We lost the Springer (at the age of 13) just before Christmas - so no more fighting (my other dogs are bitches.)  But the JR, who used to be well-endowed, had fathered several litters, and was known to check out neighbours' bitches half a mile away, is STILL not interested in bitches and still has the teensiest shrunk 'bits' you'd expect to see!


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## Tiddlypom (29 March 2014)

JanetGeorge said:



			But the JR, who used to be well-endowed, had fathered several litters, and was known to check out neighbours' bitches half a mile away, is STILL not interested in bitches and still has the teensiest shrunk 'bits' you'd expect to see!
		
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If it lasts 3 years or more, that suits us fine in this case, so thanks for that! Could well cause problems for other people who wanted to use their dog as a stud later, though, couldn't it. I don't recall the vet mentioning that the effects could last so long.


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## Leo Walker (29 March 2014)

They dont mention that, nor the fact it cant be taken out! 

Hes not in anyway shape or form aggressive, and hes def not a fearful dog. Over confident, in your face cocky maybe  Well unless its car travel or being left! But thats what worries me about the whole thing. If it can make fear aggression worse then it stands to reason it can make anxiety worse. Hes brilliant with other dogs though, even my grandparents dog aggressive terrier. But theres def a power struggle going on over the bed, and my other dog is a bit of a bossy cow!

Hes been fab today. Went running with my OH, came back got into bed and we went out for about 5 hours. No wees! 

i think, and this may a shot in the dark! but I think its the postman etc coming to the door that triggers it. When hes left for 3 hours its from 3.30 till about 5.15 so no post men etc, when hes left longer its 8.45 till 2 ish. Dunno, might be grasping at straws here! but something is happening on some days to make him stressed as its not every day. Either that or he needs the legs working off him before hes left, which isnt feasible at the minute as I'm disabled with my back, so I can do just about do a 20min gallop/playing/training session but def cant manage 45 mins jogging 

The other thing I'm doing is taking to him to training classes but having my OH handle him while I take my other dog. Hes very ,very, VERY attached to me to the point where if I get out of the car and leave him with my OH he throws up! He spent the first session screaming hysterically and breaking free to get to me, but hes getting better. 

A chat with the vet is in order on Sunday re medication for anxiety, lots more training classes, me finding a way to work him harder on a morning and then see where we are I think. I'm not ruling out chemical castration, but I think right now it would cause more problems than it fixes!


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## twiglet84 (30 March 2014)

Some information from the Virbac datasheet for suprelorin implant:

*With respect to testosterone levels (an established surrogate marker of fertility), during clinical trials more than 80 % of dogs administered one or more implants, returned to normal plasma testosterone levels (&#8805;0.4 ng/ml) within 12 months of implantation. Ninety-eight percent of dogs returned to normalplasma testosterone levels within 18 months of implantation.*


The implant is licensed to last for at least 6 months. Smaller dogs tend to have the effects longer. It last 4 years for ferrets.

I think vets still use Tardak injection, i'm sure that's for the same thing. We don't use it anymore. 

xx


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## Dobermonkey (1 April 2014)

From what I understand Suprelorin implant stops testosterone production whereas Tardak injection just messes with the hormones for a short time.

My friends dobe god rest him was a nervous wreck for most of his life and would pee out of fear on a regular basis.  she never had him castrated for fear it would make him worse (nerves wise) but he ended up with an enlarged prostrate later in life and was castrated to sort that out and afterwards he was a COMPLETELY different dog it had quite a profound effect on his life.

Tardak being the shorter term solution maybe worth a try?


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## ester (1 April 2014)

Do you have a garden gate you could put a postbox on to eliminate that as a poss cause?


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## Tiddlypom (1 April 2014)

Just to add that my JRT had the Suprelorin implant.


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## Leo Walker (1 April 2014)

He had his vet check Sunday and is fit as a fiddle. No urine infection, incredibly fit and healthy. 

She said that the injection to lower hormones isn't licensed anymore,  which is I assume Tardack? And clompide or something similar is an option but not to be undertaken lightly, so that's on the back burner for now.

After a long chat and stepping back a bit from the situation I think i'm going to go for chemical castration after all.

He has filled out in the last couple of months and is showing signs of male dog behaviour. Weeing all the time when he's out, excessive interest in other dogs wees, and 2 occasion s of being a bit ott with other entire male dogs. I think he's hit maturity and that combined with him not wanting to be alone has tipped the balance.

I'm still not 100% sure that it's the right thing for him, but we can't continue as we are. 

Saying that,  no wees yesterday or today,  but there isn't when he's left on an afternoon.

I've ordered a dap diffuser and collar, and some zyklene.  I'll give those a week and if no improvement then we are back at the vets! I'm worried if I let if it go on too long the it will be a habit that neutering etc won't fix.


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## gunnergundog (1 April 2014)

Frankiecob....how old is your dog?  Am guessing that he is an adolescent in which case this is a TEMPORARY state of affairs!

OK...puppies experience two, maybe three testosterone surges in their lives, depending on who you read. The first is in-utero and the final one is at adolescence; how many months of age that is depends on the size/breed of the dog. 

During this final surge the levels of testosterone will be increased by 300-400% of the prior level. At this stage most dogs will not know how to handle the feelings in their bodies and start to exhibit 'different' behaviours - be that humping, becoming more aggressive or reactive or whatever. This surge in testosterone lasts ONLY c4-6 months max, after which it drops down to what will be the final, normal adult level of testosterone in the dog; this level is higher than the pre-adolescent level, but is way way closer to it than what the dog experiences during adolescence. 

So many people castrate their dogs at the first sign of humping and other such behaviours in adolescence; this is not the dog that they will end up with if they give the dog time for the testosterone levels to subside AND start some commonsense training! In all honesty, training is the key, before, during and after the testosterone surge. 

If you allow the dog to mark and hump away during adolescence and then castrate, you are unlikely to see any change in behaviour as it will have become a LEARNT behaviour for that dog.

My dogs are allowed one pee on the lead and then they have to hold it until they get to wherever we are going off-lead.  When they are loose I really couldn't care a toss how much they mark!   It comes down to training and what you expect.


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## Leo Walker (2 April 2014)

He's 2.5yrs, 3 yr old at the end of september. He's a mainly whippet lurcher so it's about on track to have hit maturity.  We've done the puppy/adolescent hormones. They were easily manageable  

It's a very complex situation that has even a behaviourist a bit stumped.  I'm not rushing to chop his bits off because he's humping a cushion


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## Leo Walker (5 April 2014)

Well its done! Hes got a DAP collar on, a DAP diffuser going, zyklene tablets and another type of calmer in his food. We started these on Thursday and he had his jab today. He was very brave for a skinny pointy dog. I guess we now just have to wait and see how it all pans out. Fingers crossed!


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## Leo Walker (11 April 2014)

Just to update this. He is uber chilled out, but that is probably due to the calmers/DAP. He has had a few days with no weeing, but it hasnt completely stopped yet. I'm hoping as the implant kicks in he will, we were warned it got worse before it got better. He is def a better dog of late though, just more relaxed. So a big thumbs up for zyklene and DAP! Def no signs of fear or worsening anxiety  I'll update this in a couple of weeks when its properly taken effect, but for now, its looking good


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## Tiddlypom (11 April 2014)

Thanks for the update, it sounds very promising.

A couple of days ago, I was walking the JRT (now 6 months post implant) and we were suddenly surrounded by three bouncy dogs. They were jumping all over my chap, who was on the lead, and we were cornered and had to wait for the dogs owners to come over and haul them back.

My chap coped very well, with only a mild rumble of disapproval. Pre implant, he would have given a much ruder response.


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## Leo Walker (20 April 2014)

Still going well  he is pretty much the same but calmer,  better behaved and seemingly happier in himself. We aren't quite at the stage where it's taken full effect yet but so far so good. No negative side effects at all


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