# WTF??? Army surgeons practise on live, shot pigs



## Flicker (18 November 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20383673

Words fail me...


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## weebarney (18 November 2012)

Why do the military need to do this when i'm assuming regular surgeons on the nhs can still remove bullets without this training.


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## Gingerwitch (18 November 2012)

Yes its been going on for years.

Sad for the pigs, but you do have to think about our boys


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## Flicker (18 November 2012)

But...
There surely must be more humane ways to train surgeons??


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## Burmilla (19 November 2012)

There are, but probably not as cheaply. Vile behaviour.


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## JanetGeorge (19 November 2012)

weebarney said:



			Why do the military need to do this when i'm assuming regular surgeons on the nhs can still remove bullets without this training.
		
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Removing bullets from civilians is not too frequent an experience in most NHS hospitals - and the facilities and circumstances are rather different from the front line!  The pigs are anaesthesised before they are shot - and PTS at the end of the surgery.  I'd say LESS sufering than when they go to make pork chops!  And they're helping save the lives of soldiers who are in dangerous situations!


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## Alec Swan (19 November 2012)

For those who don't care for the practice,  on moral or ethical grounds,  I wonder how you'd feel if you had a loved one,  a son or a husband,  mortally wounded,  and the skill of the operating surgeon was down to his experience,  on living and still breathing,  but anaesthetised pigs.  Were it me, I'd be grateful for the porker's input! 

It's only a pig.  Get over it!

Alec.


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## DragonSlayer (19 November 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			The pigs are anaesthesised before they are shot - and PTS at the end of the surgery.  I'd say LESS sufering than when they go to make pork chops!  And they're helping save the lives of soldiers who are in dangerous situations!
		
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^^This^^


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## Flicker (19 November 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			For those who don't care for the practice,  on moral or ethical grounds,  I wonder how you'd feel if you had a loved one,  a son or a husband,  mortally wounded,  and the skill of the operating surgeon was down to his experience,  on living and still breathing,  but anaesthetised pigs.  Were it me, I'd be grateful for the porker's input! 

It's only a pig.  Get over it!

Alec.
		
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No need to come on all aggressive, Alec.  

Pigs are very intelligent, sentient animals.
Would you be responding the same way if 'pigs' were replaced by 'horses'?
Why does one intelligent animal deserve our compassion more than another? 

My OH did his surgical rotation in a large south London hospital and says that he spent a significant part of his time pulling bullets out of yardies and stitching up stab wounds, so there are parts of the country that do see these types of injury.  Orthopeadic Surgeons in Belfast, for example, are world class due to NI's tragic history.

It just seems so... Barbaric.


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## SpottedCat (19 November 2012)

Flicker said:



			My OH did his surgical rotation in a large south London hospital and says that he spent a significant part of his time pulling bullets out of yardies and stitching up stab wounds, so there are parts of the country that do see these types of injury.  Orthopeadic Surgeons in Belfast, for example, are world class due to NI's tragic history.
		
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He may well have done - but he did it in a clean, well equipped operating theatre without anyone trying to shoot at him. 

It never fails to amaze me how het up the brits get about animals when so many awful things happen to people around the world. Even more so when the animal is anaesthetised!


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## MurphysMinder (19 November 2012)

I think pigs have been used in one way or another for years, asI believe their skin is most like humans to work on.  I don't like the idea particularly but these surgeons have to learn their skills somewhere.  As long as there is no unnecessary suffering it seems to me that it is a necessary evil.


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## Alec Swan (19 November 2012)

Flicker said:



			No need to come on all aggressive, Alec. *That's not my intention.  I'm just incredulous. * 

Pigs are very intelligent, sentient animals. *Not when they're unconscious they're not!*
Would you be responding the same way if 'pigs' were replaced by 'horses'? *Most certainly I would.*
Why does one intelligent animal deserve our compassion more than another? *Compassion is demonstrated by the fact that the animal isn't in any way suffering.* 

My OH did his surgical rotation in a large south London hospital and says that he spent a significant part of his time pulling bullets out of yardies and stitching up stab wounds, so there are parts of the country that do see these types of injury.  Orthopeadic Surgeons in Belfast, for example, are world class due to NI's tragic history. *The Belfast hospitals of the 70s and 80s were a different place than they are today,  thankfully.*

It just seems so... Barbaric. *Explain the barbarism to me of operating on an animal which is rendered unconscious,  and will never return to an awake state.*

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Alec.


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## stencilface (19 November 2012)

Maybe pigs could be replaced by willing human volunteers?  No different to other medical tests presumably and would possibly be cheaper to pay a human than for the pigs, vets and H&S.  Failing that it could be a prison lottery where all the nasty kind of criminals' names are put in a tombola?


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## smokey (19 November 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			For those who don't care for the practice,  on moral or ethical grounds,  I wonder how you'd feel if you had a loved one,  a son or a husband,  mortally wounded,  and the skill of the operating surgeon was down to his experience,  on living and still breathing,  but anaesthetised pigs.  Were it me, I'd be grateful for the porker's input! 

It's only a pig.  Get over it!

Alec.
		
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Alec, you're a braver man than me! And I'm not even a man! . Exactly what I was thinking, but bottled out of saying. Wasn't there a thread about people being sheep? I guess I am!


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## guido16 (19 November 2012)

I have read this article and still cannot see where any suffering takes place.

Anyone are to point it out to me?

Pigs - unconscious 
Pigs - shot
Pigs- still unconscious
Pigs - operated on
Pigs - still unconscious
Pigs - humanely put to sleep whilst still unconscious.


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## kerilli (19 November 2012)

As long as the pigs are definitely completely unconscious and unable to feel any pain, I cannot see the ethical problem. 
Pigs go through worse in farrowing crates and in being electrocuted to make your bacon, guys.
If you really want to get upset about barbarism, let's talk about the countries where they (allegedly, according to a Facebook pic and post which I could not bring myself to click on) use live, conscious dogs for firing practice, shall we?


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## Amymay (19 November 2012)

Pigs have also been used as crash test dummies for years.


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## smokey (19 November 2012)

amymay said:



			Pigs have also been used as crash test dummies for years.[/ 

I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but I am now howling with laughter. Now we know who the Stig is! 

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## stencilface (19 November 2012)

*just for the record, I don't eat bacon/any meat*


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## NeedNewHorse (19 November 2012)

God, the human race is so bloody up themselves!!

We really do live in a very selfish world when we only think of ourselves... Sickening really.

Why should pigs be used.. Why should it even be a consideration, as if in this day and age they can not replicate something similar... if it even needs to be done at all !!


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## flyingfeet (19 November 2012)

If they are unconscious I cannot see the problem, as probably better treated than the ones raised in dark hot smelly boxes and then loaded onto a lorry (they scream) and then taken to the slaughter house where they are electrocuted before being hacked apart

..of course I am assuming that as medical porkers they were raised in better conditions than an intensive pig farm, this may not be the case

However I cannot see how this treatment is more or less offensive than killing them for food


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## TrasaM (19 November 2012)

Stencilface said:



			Maybe pigs could be replaced by willing human volunteers?  No different to other medical tests presumably and would possibly be cheaper to pay a human than for the pigs, vets and H&S.  Failing that it could be a prison lottery where all the nasty kind of criminals' names are put in a tombola?
		
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Or it could be a case of making the punishment fit the crime. Those who shoot get shot.


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## Maesfen (19 November 2012)

Gingerwitch said:



			Yes its been going on for years.

Sad for the pigs, but you do have to think about our boys
		
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Absolutely.  You'll be telling me next that none of you wear make up or use cold remedies...................


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## Maisie2 (19 November 2012)

As far as I know this has been going on for many, many years - I seem to remember Porton Down  being involved in similar controversy.  This is apparently an annual event in Denmark for trauma surgeons from around the world.  Years ago we had a pig farmer move to the farm next to us, I won't bother with the details just say I didn't eat pork for many years and seldom do now.  This seems to me to be more barbaric than shooting anesthetised(sp) animals for the benefit of injured human beings.


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## daisycrazy (19 November 2012)

No objection to the use of pigs from me, but I love the prison lottery idea!


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## jrp204 (19 November 2012)

Apparently they were also used in WW2 to train surgeons in blast injuries too. Anyone offering to get blown up? Volunteers?? No, guess not. Personally as long as the animal hasnt suffered (eg, being anaesthitised) I have no problem with it and I have no doubt that over the years this training has saved many lives.


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## kerilli (19 November 2012)

Yes, IF they are anaesthetised. We have to hope so. I suspect that in some test facilities they are not, because anaesthetics and painkillers cost money, which affects the bottom line, of course. I read somewhere about dogs being used to practice limb reattachment surgery. Apparently they weren't given painkillers. I very sincerely hope that was misreported.
And don't even get me started on bear bile farming either, if we are going to talk about utterly barbaric use of animals. 
At least this is useful - as above, it saves lives. As long as the animals are guaranteed insensate, it's okay by me.


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## Alec Swan (19 November 2012)

daisycrazy said:



			.......I love the prison lottery idea!
		
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The idea could be rolled out,  so that any survivors get immediate parole,  and if they find it all a bit much,  then we'll give 'em a decent State send off.  

I'm getting into this,  and where's Pedantic?  This'd be right up his street! 

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (19 November 2012)

kerilli said:



			....... I read somewhere about dogs being used to practice limb reattachment surgery. ........
		
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Special Forces need to learn how to kill dogs,  without weapons,  and there's only one way that they can achieve it.  Practice makes perfect,  or so we're told.

No,  I don't like it either,  but it's better than a badly mauled member of a team,  who whilst in hostile territory and totally self reliant,  becomes a liability to the rest of his team.

At least the pigs are anaesthetised.

Alec.

Ets,  it's just occurred to me that this is all about our own perspectives.  a.


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## perfect11s (19 November 2012)

Stencilface said:



			Maybe pigs could be replaced by willing human volunteers?  No different to other medical tests presumably and would possibly be cheaper to pay a human than for the pigs, vets and H&S.  Failing that it could be a prison lottery where all the nasty kind of criminals' names are put in a tombola?
		
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Likeing this  but why limit it to crims ?? politcians would be good too!!! fatty prescott ,harman and Cameron would do for a start...


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## Amymay (19 November 2012)

It's about to be discussed on Jeremy Vine.


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## Honey08 (19 November 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			It's only a pig.  Get over it!

Alec.
		
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The sensitivity of an old farmer!!




kerilli said:



			As long as the pigs are definitely completely unconscious and unable to feel any pain, I cannot see the ethical problem. 
Pigs go through worse in farrowing crates and in being electrocuted to make your bacon, guys.
		
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kerilli said:



			Yes, IF they are anaesthetised. We have to hope so. I suspect that in some test facilities they are not, because anaesthetics and painkillers cost money, which affects the bottom line, of course

. At least this is useful - as above, it saves lives. As long as the animals are guaranteed insensate, it's okay by me.
		
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This is my view generally.  I don't like the idea, but *if *it is done painlessly, I can cope!



amymay said:



			It's about to be discussed on Jeremy Vine.
		
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Nothing ever gets _discussed_ on Jeremy Vine - its only hysteria and extremes allowed on!  Nobody sensible gets airtime.


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## FairyLights (19 November 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			Removing bullets from civilians is not too frequent an experience in most NHS hospitals - and the facilities and circumstances are rather different from the front line!  The pigs are anaesthesised before they are shot - and PTS at the end of the surgery.  I'd say LESS sufering than when they go to make pork chops!  And they're helping save the lives of soldiers who are in dangerous situations!
		
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Very well said.


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## minigal (19 November 2012)

Having met many many wounded soldiers who have survived ONLY because of the advances in medicine during recent conflicts, lost a member of our family in Afghan, and being the OH of a Marine I have NO problem at all with this - I have talked to people who have worked on the pigs and they have assured me there is no suffering ( I was horrified initially when I learned of it on a training day I was on.)

I would also like to point out that medicine is advancing hugely as a result of the Iraq/Afghan war - it is a sad fact that this happens (can recommend a book called Medic if anyone is interested.....). Techniques are being successfully rolled out to civilian trauma so we all benefit from things like this ......

Also Army surgeons do a lot of work in the NHS......


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## ILuvCowparsely (19 November 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			For those who don't care for the practice,  on moral or ethical grounds,  I wonder how you'd feel if you had a loved one,  a son or a husband,  mortally wounded,  and the skill of the operating surgeon was down to his experience,  on living and still breathing,  but anaesthetised pigs.  Were it me, I'd be grateful for the porker's input! 

It's only a pig.  Get over it!

Alec.
		
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Its an animal has feelings.
poor piggies 


 I do not see how the hell killing poor pigs , they are going to learn anything!  why not go out and learn in Richmond park when they HAVE to cull the dear. 


 We are in the 21st century  I think the surgeons should know enough by now on

 how to get a bullet out
 repair the would and try save the person.


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## ILuvCowparsely (19 November 2012)

Stencilface said:



			Maybe pigs could be replaced by willing human volunteers?  No different to other medical tests presumably and would possibly be cheaper to pay a human than for the pigs, vets and H&S.  Failing that it could be a prison lottery where all the nasty kind of criminals' names are put in a tombola?
		
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^ like


Poor pigs  thats is all I can say.


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## ILuvCowparsely (19 November 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Absolutely.  You'll be telling me next that none of you wear make up or use cold remedies...................
		
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Some of us do not use makes of make up/ cold remedies etc that are used or have slaughterhouse by products in.

 Max Factor is one of the worst


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (19 November 2012)

Its a sad, bad world we live in unfortunately, and there's nothing new in this "story". Its just the location's changed - used to happen here in the UK.

I seem to remember the outcry in the 1970's and '80's, or thereabouts, when it was discovered exactly what was going on at Porton Down, the chemical warfare research establishment on Salisbury Plain where primates were being used to test deadly toxins; also sheep were being used as "ammunition fodder" just like pigs are in Denmark. 

Unfortunately this won't be the last we'll hear of this sort of thing going on.


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## Pedantic (19 November 2012)

Blimey, the Police have it rough now   drugged, shot, operated on, then killed, and they thought being a copper was handing out speeding fines and getting a pension, oh, no, oh I see you mean actual "Pigs".....

I wonder how many Muslim troops will be happy to be operated on by a surgeon trained on Pigs, I suppose as long as they wipe the scalpel well on a clean cloth first it will be ok, won't it.........


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## minigal (19 November 2012)

Leviathan said:



			Its an animal has feelings.
poor piggies 


 I do not see how the hell killing poor pigs , they are going to learn anything!  why not go out and learn in Richmond park when they HAVE to cull the dear. 


 We are in the 21st century  I think the surgeons should know enough by now on

 how to get a bullet out
 repair the would and try save the person.
		
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GOOD GRIEF.....!!!!!!

Lets hope you or your loved ones never get injured!!!!  How on EARTH do you think surgeons are able to hone their skills?  Playing that "Operation" board game?!!  

They aren't born knowing what to do so they have to practise on something, it's never going to be humans so they use the closest alternative.

Human life will always come before animal life.


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## teapot (19 November 2012)

Leviathan said:



			We are in the 21st century  I think the surgeons should know enough by now on how to get a bullet out, repair the would and try save the person.
		
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Umm every bullet wound is different. No two are ever the same because of the numerous variables I could list in this post... 

Someone very close to my heart has just got back from Afghan and if someone operating on a pig meant (if he had been injured) that his life was saved, then that's fine by me. 

I'd also like to ask those who suggest a simulator, instead of live tissue (which is the best way of learning to operate on) how they'd suggest a simulator could react as though a body has lost all four limbs, major chest injuries, major shrapnel injuries, open neck wounds because that is how badly some of our guys get injured from one blast. Oh and I forgot to mention that due to power of adrenaline, they can still be conscious moments after the blast.

Find me a simulator good enough to react in that sort of situation, without HUGE expense to the MOD which they can't afford (and I doubt the NHS could either) and I'll go save the piggies myself. People forget that the ONLY reason we have trauma medicine is because of war. That's where it started, that's where it's being improved - the Bastion hospital is the best in the world for very good reason. Now most, if not all of those staff across the 3 services will spend the majority of their time in the NHS before and after their three month tours. If their experience, developed by the use of pigs under GA, improve the chances of mine, my family's, my great uncle Bob, the guy walking down the street etc etc chance of survival when ending up in A&E then I'm not going to complain... 

(And before someone calls me a holier than thou arrogant human, have you ever considered where you precious leather saddle has come from?  )


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## smokey (19 November 2012)

teapot said:



			Umm every bullet wound is different. No two are ever the same because of the numerous variables I could list in this post... 

Someone very close to my heart has just got back from Afghan and if someone operating on a pig meant (if he had been injured) that his life was saved, then that's fine by me. 

I'd also like to ask those who suggest a simulator, instead of live tissue (which is the best way of learning to operate on) how they'd suggest a simulator could react as though a body has lost all four limbs, major chest injuries, major shrapnel injuries, open neck wounds because that is how badly some of our guys get injured from one blast. Oh and I forgot to mention that due to power of adrenaline, they can still be conscious moments after the blast.

Find me a simulator good enough to react in that sort of situation, without HUGE expense to the MOD which they can't afford (and I doubt the NHS could either) and I'll go save the piggies myself. People forget that the ONLY reason we have trauma medicine is because of war. That's where it started, that's where it's being improved - the Bastion hospital is the best in the world for very good reason. Now most, if not all of those staff across the 3 services will spend the majority of their time in the NHS before and after their three month tours. If their experience, developed by the use of pigs under GA, improve the chances of mine, my family's, my great uncle Bob, the guy walking down the street etc etc chance of survival when ending up in A&E then I'm not going to complain... 

(And before someone calls me a holier than thou arrogant human, have you ever considered where you precious leather saddle has come from?  )
		
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Well, that sure painted a graphic picture!   very well put, from the trauma surgery, to the saddles!


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## Orangehorse (19 November 2012)

There are thousands of pigs slaughtered every day, why get wound up about this?  There was a very good person on the radio this morning, a spokesman, who said there had been a study by vets, doctors, lay people, religious people, and the conclusion was that this is OK and should be resumed in the UK, but to concentrate resources they army people still go to Denmark.

Lot of silly fuss about nothing.


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## teapot (19 November 2012)

I wish it wasn't true Smokey but it is, sadly 

Just something I feel very strongly about as I know and seen how much physical and mental trauma these guys and girls go through...


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## Gingerwitch (19 November 2012)

This is the least we can do for our lads, they put their lives on the line for us.


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## minigal (19 November 2012)

No one would join up to serve unless they were assured of the very best medical care....


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## pokeyjoee&coralinee (19 November 2012)

If it wasn't for animals, surgery would never have developed the way it is.
example...Galen! Operated on a live pig to discover how nerves control certain things.
Without animals, we couldn't develop really. And yes, using criminals would be amazing,  but that would only happen in a perfect world, lets face it. I may be biased as it if it wasn't for animal testing, I'd be dead... I don't brush it off, I owe those animals, which is why I treat the animals in my care to the best of my ability, their health is paramount as far as I'm concerned.

It is cruel and the animals don't get a say in it, but that's life. And as for them using horses? They wouldn't. Simply because they are _completely_ anatomically different to us.

If those pigs are giving their lives to aid in the stability of our armed forces, who give their lives to save us...then it sits well with me.


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## sam_m (19 November 2012)

I have to confess, initially I was horrified to read this, HOWEVER after speaking to a few friends of mine in the army who reassured me the pigs are anaesthesised before anything happens to them. And actually you know what, I'd rather a dozen or so pigs where used every year for the hope that should any of my friends including my ex husband ever be in the situation of needing a life or death operation at Bastion hospital they have the best chance of survival possible.


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## Slinkyunicorn (19 November 2012)

Leviathan said:



			I do not see how the hell killing poor pigs , they are going to learn anything!  why not go out and learn in Richmond park when they HAVE to cull the dear.
		
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Pigs have been used for used as they are the most anatomically close to humans and react/heal etc in a very similar way - they are also used to supply 'spare' parts for lots of transplant surgery in the NHS - with huge success. They have made an invaluable contribution in forwarding surgery/medicine for us and will continue to do so - there is no other viable alternative.


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## Dizzydancer (19 November 2012)

These pigs are doing a very valuable job- they help save the lives of our young guys and girls who are putting there life on the line. 
If my brother or cousin needed surgery whilst out there and the training on pigs helped save them i would be eternally grateful. 
Totally agree with what teapot said. The program a while back about camp bastion hospital and the advances its making in general medicine is also important to remember. The doctors out there generally work in the NHS when not on a tour therefore we all benefit from there skills learnt through training and being out in a dangerous high pressure environment. 
Its something like 95% of soldiers who make it back alive to the hospital there will go on to survive an impressive statistic i think.


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## Aru (19 November 2012)

Those pigs probably had a better life than most commercial pigs in the UK...

Anesthetised means they felt no pain what so ever during this procedure....one small prick of a needle initially to deliver the drug then they knew no pain,thats not a bad way to go.

Meanwhile the surgeons learned valuable skills needed to save lives and limbs out on the field. Live surgery is a hundred times different to even a newly dead animal,live animals organs react differently to manipulations and drugs, the bodies anesthetised movements and the way blood flows is near impossible to replicate. 

How do you think vets learn to do surgery? It isn't so long ago that terminal surgeries were used in the vet schools as well, tbh its a pity they were discontinued but cost was to high....We still learn on live animals by doing the basic procedures like spays/castrates, C sections in cattle and then being supervised on more advances procedures in our early years by more experience colleagues.. 
why should we expect less of our medical colleagues? There is so much more at stake for them. Plus as pigs are very similar in organ size and reactions to humans it makes a lot of sense.


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## Gingerwitch (19 November 2012)

At least these animals are out of it - those poor poor people in WW2 were used as experiments, and a lot of what we know about medicine is down to the horrific resarch that was carried out.


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## ILuvCowparsely (19 November 2012)

minigal said:



			GOOD GRIEF.....!!!!!!

Lets hope you or your loved ones never get injured!!!!  How on EARTH do you think surgeons are able to hone their skills?  Playing that "Operation" board game?!!  

They aren't born knowing what to do so they have to practise on something, it's never going to be humans so they use the closest alternative.

Human life will always come before animal life.
		
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## minigal (19 November 2012)

Leviathan said:





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????  Do explain?  The use of smilies like this suggests you can't articulate yourself adequately in words.....


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## Alec Swan (19 November 2012)

Aru said:



			Those pigs probably had a better life than most commercial pigs in the UK...

Anesthetised means they felt no pain what so ever during this procedure....one small prick of a needle initially to deliver the drug then they knew no pain,thats not a bad way to go.

Meanwhile the surgeons learned valuable skills needed to save lives and limbs out on the field. Live surgery is a hundred times different to even a newly dead animal,live animals organs react differently to manipulations and drugs, the bodies anesthetised movements and the way blood flows is near impossible to replicate. 

How do you think vets learn to do surgery? It isn't so long ago that terminal surgeries were used in the vet schools as well, tbh its a pity they were discontinued but cost was to high....We still learn on live animals by doing the basic procedures like spays/castrates, C sections in cattle and then being supervised on more advances procedures in our early years by more experience colleagues.. 
why should we expect less of our medical colleagues? There is so much more at stake for them. Plus as pigs are very similar in organ size and reactions to humans it makes a lot of sense.
		
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Currently,  and for me,  the post of the year.  I applaud such irrefutable and sound reason.

Alec.


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## cptrayes (19 November 2012)

It's not just the army folks! My OH owes his life to a surgeon who told him with a big grin on his face that the artificial heart valve that he had just fitted was "the largest one I have ever put in a human". 

Do I think that was fair on the pig/s? Since the OH's  life expectancy was 6 months and changed to 25 years, yes, I think I do.


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## teapot (19 November 2012)

cptrayes said:



			It's not just the army folks! My OH owes his life to a surgeon who told him with a big grin on his face that the artificial heart valve that he had just fitted was "the largest one I have ever put in a human". 

Do I think that was fair on the pig? Since the OH's  life expectancy was 6 months and is now 24 years, yes, I think I do.
		
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But in that case, the valve would have come from a dead pig. Same goes for bovine ones. 

It's the people who are raising their arms up in disgrace that these pigs are shot and operated on under anesthetic for the benefit of humans that some of us have taken issue with. Slightly different issue I think for this thread anyway


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## cptrayes (19 November 2012)

teapot said:



			But in that case, the valve would have come from a dead pig. Same goes for bovine ones. 

It's the people who are raising their arms up in disgrace that these pigs are shot and operated on under anesthetic for the benefit of humans that some of us have taken issue with. Slightly different issue I think for this thread anyway 

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Not at all. The clue was in the words "artificial heart valve"    The valve is _mechanical_, carbon fibre and titanium, and they practise putting them in on live pigs. And they were developed in the first place by testing on pigs to iron out the blood clotting problems that mechanical valves cause. For that, the pigs will not only have been alive when operated on, but they will have been brought back to consciousness after massive surgery to see how well they survived the new valve.



ps yes, he ticks. Loudly. Scares old ladies on buses, especially if he is carrying a rucksack


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## teapot (19 November 2012)

Oh you're talking about a mechanical one, not an actual pig valve (which are occasionally used) which then yes it is relevant


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## Alec Swan (19 November 2012)

teapot said:



			.......

It's the people who are raising their arms up in disgrace that these pigs are shot and operated on under anesthetic for the benefit of humans that some of us have taken issue with. Slightly different issue I think for this thread anyway 

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From that,  are we to take it,  that you consider the life of a pig to be of greater value than that of a human?

Alec.


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## teapot (19 November 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			From that,  are we to take it,  that you consider the life of a pig to be of greater value than that of a human?

Alec.
		
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Quite the opposite Alec if you read my original post on the subject. You misinterpret my second post - most of us are annoyed that people think its disgusting and wrong when it has some significant benefit to trauma care.


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## Alec Swan (19 November 2012)

teapot said:



			Quite the opposite Alec if you read my original post on the subject. You misinterpret my second post - most of us are annoyed that people think its disgusting and wrong when it has some significant benefit to trauma care.
		
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I've re-read your post,  and those words of yours which I've quoted.  I have,  as you say misunderstood.  I apologise.

The written word will never be heard,  and so it stands the chance of misinterpretation. 

Alec.


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## ClobellsandBaubles (19 November 2012)

minigal said:



			I would also like to point out that medicine is advancing hugely as a result of the Iraq/Afghan war - it is a sad fact that this happens (can recommend a book called Medic if anyone is interested.....). Techniques are being successfully rolled out to civilian trauma so we all benefit from things like this ......

Also Army surgeons do a lot of work in the NHS......
		
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Leviathan said:



			Its an animal has feelings.
poor piggies 


 We are in the 21st century  I think the surgeons should know enough by now on

 how to get a bullet out
 repair the would and try save the person.
		
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 I sincerely hope thats sarcasm 



teapot said:



			People forget that the ONLY reason we have trauma medicine is because of war. That's where it started, that's where it's being improved - the Bastion hospital is the best in the world for very good reason. Now most, if not all of those staff across the 3 services will spend the majority of their time in the NHS before and after their three month tours. If their experience, developed by the use of pigs under GA, improve the chances of mine, my family's, my great uncle Bob, the guy walking down the street etc etc chance of survival when ending up in A&E then I'm not going to complain...
		
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^^^ Took the words out of my mouth 
From the sounds of it the pigs suffer no more than the average person going into surgery and definitely no more than the many pigs that go to slaughter.

Medicine advances hugely at times of war hard to deal with but true many of the treatments, surgeries etc. were pioneered in battle field hospitals. Those pigs aren't just saving soldiers lives they save ours and our children and grandchildren.


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## fburton (20 November 2012)

cptrayes said:



			ps yes, he ticks. Loudly. Scares old ladies on buses, especially if he is carrying a rucksack 

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But rather reassuring, I'd imagine, for those who know what's making the sound!

(Also... a new twist on the phrase "the old ticker"!  )


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## fburton (20 November 2012)

Cloball said:



			From the sounds of it the pigs suffer no more than the average person going into surgery ...
		
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Rather less, I'd have thought, since the average person recovers from surgery and typically has to cope with feeling unwell for a while, whereas the pigs do not.


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## smokey (20 November 2012)

fburton said:



			Rather less, I'd have thought, since the average person recovers from surgery and typically has to cope with feeling unwell for a while, whereas the pigs do not.
		
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I would have thought also that the pigs would not undergo the mental strain in the period prior to the operation that a human would feel, thus would not be stressed. I can see no problem at all with this practise, and having seen some true miracles of modern surgery, I fully appreciate that surgeons have to practise on something. I also enjoy bacon, wear leather shoes and feel no guilt. I'm a bad person!


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## paddy (20 November 2012)

Someone was interviewed on this subject on R4 yesterday morning and the slant was slightly different to that the article seems - from a quick scan - to have given.  The point they were making is that the immediate treatment of injuries in the field can make such a huge difference to the outcome for the patient.  I suppose that, whilst a surgeon could go to a number of hospitals and remove bullets etc, finding exactly the right type of injury on which to practice is tricky (and the delay in getting the right surgeon to the right bit of the UK probably wouldn't result in a particularly great outcome for that patient, so defeating the object of saving human lives).

One would like to think that the animals are properly sedated (I know surgeons have done nasty things to me without putting me under a GA and I've known absolutely nothing about it).  As someone else has mentioned above, the animals produced for the cheap cuts of meat sold in supermarkets probably had worse lives.

We have 4 pigs and I love them to bits.  But I'm afraid I would sacrifice my pigs for my (ex army) husband.  I certainly wouldn't fancy standing in front of a soldier who had been out fighting on behalf of his country and explaining that I'd been the one to ban the testing that might have saved his leg/ arm etc.  Or indeed in front of his children if it might have saved his life.


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## joeanne (20 November 2012)

In years to come, should my child go off to war and be shot......quite frankly if the surgeon was able to save the life or limbs of my child, i'll buy him all the pigs he likes to practice on beforehand.
The pigs are under GA....they feel or know nothing. Infact I would say they are getting a better deal than at a slaughterhouse where they are stunned by a massive voltage before having their throat cut....nobody gives a fig if they are intelligent when eating them between two bits of bread, so why it should be different in this case is anyone's guess?


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## misterjinglejay (20 November 2012)

Whilst I am wholly against experimenting on live, concious animals - these pigs were asleep and knew nothing. Far better than the treatment they could endure at a slaughterhouse, IMO


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## Pearlsasinger (21 November 2012)

minigal said:



			.)

I would also like to point out that medicine is advancing hugely as a result of the Iraq/Afghan war - it is a sad fact that this happens (can recommend a book called Medic if anyone is interested.....). Techniques are being successfully rolled out to civilian trauma so we all benefit from things like this ......

Also Army surgeons do a lot of work in the NHS......
		
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The only benefit that I can see from either conflict.


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## Maesfen (21 November 2012)

Haven't read all through so apologies if said before but isn't pork meant to be the closest to human flesh too which is why they use them?


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## cptrayes (21 November 2012)

fburton said:



			But rather reassuring, I'd imagine, for those who know what's making the sound!

(Also... a new twist on the phrase "the old ticker"!  )
		
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Very reassuring except for when my horse was waiting for the hunstman to put him down and then it went keerrrrrazy!  Very frightening!!

Sorry about the diversion OP


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## happyhunter123 (21 November 2012)

A shame, in a perfect world animals wouldn't be tested on or practiced on. This isn't a perfect world, and so these tests, to save human life, must go ahead. 
I like pigs, but for me a person's life would always come above a pig.


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