# Any ideas on what would cause a horse to disunite in canter?



## Casey76 (30 August 2016)

And for clarification - osteo is coming on Thursday, and I'm planning a "performance not as expected" visit from the vet if no improvement.

My mare has always had an awful canter, when I bought her as a very green 6yo, she could barely canter at all.  She is now 9, and although it is getting better, her canter is still awful, very rushed, light in the hind end etc.  She finds it exceptionally hard to canter on the lunge.

In May, this year, she started to disunite and she was seen by an osteo in Jun, with some comments that she had some tightness across her loin and lumbar vertebrae.  Although we weren't given any specific prescription for exercises, we worked a lot on the canter transition, lots of rein back to canter, and counter canter etc to get her haunches properly working and get her more balanced in canter.

Then she cut her right hind leg which required a couple of staples, and a less severe cut on her right fore armpit.  in the end she had 4 weeks off, as I went on holiday as she was due to come back into work.

The first time my instructor got on to ride (which she does once a week), the canter was awful, definitely cantering at the front but almost a hopping trot at the back.  But she is 100% sound in walk and trot, on a surface, on hard ground in a straight line and in a circle both large and small.

I've avoided doing any canter work for 2 weeks, and concentrated on trot, making sure we have a good connection between front and hind quarters.  Lots of lateral work moving the haunches from side to side etc.  She feels great.

Yesterday I had a lesson and our canter transition on demand seems to have disappeared again, though she will offer canter (as an evasion!) if I'm pushing the trot too much.  although I only asked for a couple of transitions on each rein, she immediately went disunited.  I can sometimes push her out of it if I really push her on (our arena is 60x40, so we have enough room to get up a bit of speed), but for a normal working/schooling canter I'm just getting this half gait.

Now, just to throw something in the bucket, she has a whorl right on her spine, right under the cantle area.  My osteo has remarked upon it a couple of times as it is a really weird place to have a whorl.  I've since read that having a whorl on the spine can block the flow of energy from the hind to the fore quarters (if you believe in whorlology), and my osteo has stated that there is now some fibrotic tissue directly beneath the whorl.  

Could Tartine just have a "defective" canter (as my instructor calls it). Is it a physical thing? Can it be fixed?

As far as I know she has never gone splat in the field, and she always rolls right over (usually several times!) when rolling in the field.

Tea and biscuits for getting this far!


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## milliepops (30 August 2016)

I hope it's something simple for you. But I'm afraid the horses I've known who have had this kind of issue with canter have turned out to have SI joint issues/problems with suspensories    They can work perfectly well in other paces and not show any other signs.

SI would kind of ring a bell with her deteriorating when out of work.


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## HeresHoping (30 August 2016)

milliepops said:



			I hope it's something simple for you. But I'm afraid the horses I've known who have had this kind of issue with canter have turned out to have SI joint issues/problems with suspensories    They can work perfectly well in other paces and not show any other signs.

SI would kind of ring a bell with her deteriorating when out of work.
		
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So sorry, this for me, too.


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## Goldenstar (30 August 2016)

As above ,SI KS and hock issues .
However she's a draught isn't she they are not bred for their canters and it can take a lot of work to get them to canter freely so I would not discount that she just finds it difficult on the side she's least straight on .


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## milliepops (30 August 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			As above ,SI KS and hock issues .
However she's a draught isn't she they are not bred for their canters and it can take a lot of work to get them to canter freely so I would not discount that she just finds it difficult on the side she's least straight on .
		
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^^ oh absolutely, sorry OP, didn't mean to be the voice of doom.   Really hope it's just a bit of tightness and loss of strength during her time off.  
I'd have expected the canter to struggle more with rhythm (e.g heading towards 4 time) or tanking off losing balance etc if it was a 'type' kind of difficulty though.  The awkward transition and disuniting (when the other work is improving) just sounded a bit off to me.


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## Casey76 (30 August 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			As above ,SI KS and hock issues .
However she's a draught isn't she they are not bred for their canters and it can take a lot of work to get them to canter freely so I would not discount that she just finds it difficult on the side she's least straight on .
		
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Actually Mérens are bred to be true all rounders, including dressage and jumping as well as driving.  The recent spate of disunitedness isn't on one side, it's on both.

Looks like I'm going to be getting back to the vetting vet for all of the xrays I had done as it looks like I may need comparisons for hocks.

thanks all.

(recent photo from July)


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## applecart14 (30 August 2016)

I agree with Goldenstar when she says hock issues. Spavin presents as disunited canter behind, also dragging of toes (clipping of toes on concrete/tarmac road) and a reluctance to put the hock under the body.   The horse may also be placing the foot under the midline (tummy) when it moves forwards whereas an unaffected horse will walk in the correct way.

here is a brilliant video on YouTube that might assist you :http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...9AB771280155913D9A159AB771280155913&FORM=VIRE

I'd suggest you get a vet out to have a lameness workup to reach a diagnosis.  There's loads that can be done if it is spavin including steroid injections or Tildren/fusion, remedial shoeing, a decent physio and a good joint supplement.  Also working the horse differently on a good surface.

As a general rule a horse that is reluctant to work in a particular pace is sore in that pace because of a different set of muscle group being used.  Muscular problems can of course stem from lots of reasons, notably because a horse is moving differently in its body to compensate from pain elsewhere.

Has she ever given you cause to suspect she is a wobbler?  Horses that have a bunny hop type of canter behind can also be suffering from a neuro condition.  They move in a very different way.  It throws you out of the saddle so it doesn't feel like a disunited canter but its the easiest way to describe it.  Very unique type of canter, very different altogether.  Heres a video of a 3 year old with wobblers cantering, you will see the hind limb placement is unique to this condition.  http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...68DC123480C9705A009068DC123480C97&FORM=VRDGAR


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## Scatterbrain (30 August 2016)

Could well be PSD unfortunately. A thorough lameness work up with a good equine vet would be my first port of call.

PSD often goes hand in hand with hock issues.


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## FfionWinnie (31 August 2016)

Another thing to throw into the mix would be PSSM.


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## Casey76 (31 August 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			Another thing to throw into the mix would be PSSM.
		
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Thanks FW, she is actually already on a fairly PSSM-friendly diet, including added salt and Vit E.  She has never seen any overt signs of tying up, or unusual stiffness (or stiffness of any particular kind).  Her bottom muscles are always nice and soft.  But it is something to consider, and I'll add it to the list of things to test for (which also includes EMS and PPID) - in for a penny in for a pound, right - I might as well get everything tested at once, saves repeated call outs!



applecart14 said:



			I agree with Goldenstar when she says hock issues. Spavin presents as disunited canter behind, also dragging of toes (clipping of toes on concrete/tarmac road) and a reluctance to put the hock under the body.   The horse may also be placing the foot under the midline (tummy) when it moves forwards whereas an unaffected horse will walk in the correct way.

here is a brilliant video on YouTube that might assist you :http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...9AB771280155913D9A159AB771280155913&FORM=VIRE

I'd suggest you get a vet out to have a lameness workup to reach a diagnosis.  There's loads that can be done if it is spavin including steroid injections or Tildren/fusion, remedial shoeing, a decent physio and a good joint supplement.  Also working the horse differently on a good surface.

As a general rule a horse that is reluctant to work in a particular pace is sore in that pace because of a different set of muscle group being used.  Muscular problems can of course stem from lots of reasons, notably because a horse is moving differently in its body to compensate from pain elsewhere.

Has she ever given you cause to suspect she is a wobbler?  Horses that have a bunny hop type of canter behind can also be suffering from a neuro condition.  They move in a very different way.  It throws you out of the saddle so it doesn't feel like a disunited canter but its the easiest way to describe it.  Very unique type of canter, very different altogether.  Heres a video of a 3 year old with wobblers cantering, you will see the hind limb placement is unique to this condition.  http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...68DC123480C9705A009068DC123480C97&FORM=VRDGAR

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Hi Applecart, she actually shows no particular symptoms of hock spavins (and my old horse had them, so I pretty much know what they present like);  She is fine to have her back feet picked up, she doesn't drag her toes, is find going up and down hills, walks neither base wide, nor base narrow at the back.  She has no issues engaging in trot, always most of the time shows excellent hock flexion etc.  From looking at videos from May (at the time the disunited thing started), it does appear to be higher up (stifle, hip, SI), as it isn't a "bunny-hop" both-legs-together at the back, it is a trot-with-a-little-hitch or the legs are going in the right canter-order, but there is no jump at the back.

She isn't particularly reluctant to canter, as I said, she will offer canter if I'm asking too many difficult questions in trot (e.g. shoulder in on a circle will often precipitate a canter transition , or spiral in/LY out on a circle will too.)

I am trying to keep away from google too much - all of a sudden, my horse seems to be missing a leg and is dying of some weird zoonosis lol!

As I said, the osteo is coming tomorrow, and I'll see what he says, then possible vet work up next week.


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## applecart14 (31 August 2016)

Casey76 said:



			As I said, the osteo is coming tomorrow, and I'll see what he says, then possible vet work up next week.
		
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Do keep us updated Casey76 and good luck with the vet.


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## Scatterbrain (31 August 2016)

"it is a trot-with-a-little-hitch" is exactly what one of my horses with PSD was exhibiting, combined with poor canter. My vet explained the little hitch is the horse attempting to avoid the pain. The physio always picked up on and treated tension and tightness in the lumber and loin areas, but the true source was PSD. He was actually bilaterally lame behind which made it hard to detect. 
Hope I'm wrong, but definitely worth investigating should your mare not come right.


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## Charlie31 (31 August 2016)

Just to throw something entirely different into the mix, are you sure her saddle is definitely fitting her as sometimes a saddle that's not right can cause them to be disunited in canter. I would guess the osteo will pick up some tightness through her back if it is the saddle so it could be a possible line of enquiry if the osteo does come back with this.


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## Slightlyconfused (31 August 2016)

milliepops said:



			I hope it's something simple for you. But I'm afraid the horses I've known who have had this kind of issue with canter have turned out to have SI joint issues/problems with suspensories    They can work perfectly well in other paces and not show any other signs.

SI would kind of ring a bell with her deteriorating when out of work.
		
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This for me too.


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## Tyssandi (31 August 2016)

Casey76 said:



			And for clarification - osteo is coming on Thursday, and I'm planning a "performance not as expected" visit from the vet if no improvement.

My mare has always had an awful canter, when I bought her as a very green 6yo, she could barely canter at all.  She is now 9, and although it is getting better, her canter is still awful, very rushed, light in the hind end etc.  She finds it exceptionally hard to canter on the lunge.

In May, this year, she started to disunite and she was seen by an osteo in Jun, with some comments that she had some tightness across her loin and lumbar vertebrae.  Although we weren't given any specific prescription for exercises, we worked a lot on the canter transition, lots of rein back to canter, and counter canter etc to get her haunches properly working and get her more balanced in canter.

Then she cut her right hind leg which required a couple of staples, and a less severe cut on her right fore armpit.  in the end she had 4 weeks off, as I went on holiday as she was due to come back into work.

The first time my instructor got on to ride (which she does once a week), the canter was awful, definitely cantering at the front but almost a hopping trot at the back.  But she is 100% sound in walk and trot, on a surface, on hard ground in a straight line and in a circle both large and small.

I've avoided doing any canter work for 2 weeks, and concentrated on trot, making sure we have a good connection between front and hind quarters.  Lots of lateral work moving the haunches from side to side etc.  She feels great.

Yesterday I had a lesson and our canter transition on demand seems to have disappeared again, though she will offer canter (as an evasion!) if I'm pushing the trot too much.  although I only asked for a couple of transitions on each rein, she immediately went disunited.  I can sometimes push her out of it if I really push her on (our arena is 60x40, so we have enough room to get up a bit of speed), but for a normal working/schooling canter I'm just getting this half gait.

Now, just to throw something in the bucket, she has a whorl right on her spine, right under the cantle area.  My osteo has remarked upon it a couple of times as it is a really weird place to have a whorl.  I've since read that having a whorl on the spine can block the flow of energy from the hind to the fore quarters (if you believe in whorlology), and my osteo has stated that there is now some fibrotic tissue directly beneath the whorl.  

Could Tartine just have a "defective" canter (as my instructor calls it). Is it a physical thing? Can it be fixed?

As far as I know she has never gone splat in the field, and she always rolls right over (usually several times!) when rolling in the field.

Tea and biscuits for getting this far!
		
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My last horse would change legs all the time when jumping and before the jump, there was no issue she just like to change but it did feel ruddy weird to sit on.


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## Casey76 (31 August 2016)

Scatterbrain said:



			"it is a trot-with-a-little-hitch" is exactly what one of my horses with PSD was exhibiting, combined with poor canter. My vet explained the little hitch is the horse attempting to avoid the pain. The physio always picked up on and treated tension and tightness in the lumber and loin areas, but the true source was PSD. He was actually bilaterally lame behind which made it hard to detect. 
Hope I'm wrong, but definitely worth investigating should your mare not come right.
		
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Was the actual trot work OK though Scatterbrain?  Tartine is 100% sound in trot, including lateral work such as LY, SI, travers on a 2,3 and 4 track work.  It is only in the canter that the "hitch" is showing.


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## alainax (31 August 2016)

I very much hope it is not something medically wrong and she gets the all clear. 

How is she for picking up the correct lead? What does she do on the lunge? Does she fix it or continue with it? Does she rush? 

 I have one who will disunite or pick up the wrong lead very easily, counter canter without a care!  He looks like he is for example bent to the left. Bend looks uniform along his length, so it can be baffling. However if he drops a shoulder slightly,  or puts his weight just a fraction to the opposite, he will pick up the right lead. This sometimes manifests in being disunited, as he will strike off correct from behind, but has already shifted weight in the front. This is a horse who finds lateral work easy, moves sideways and away from your leg with ease, and once in canter its gorgeous. Its just getting there. 

We have lessons and are working on it, its just one of those little hurdles.


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## SEL (31 August 2016)

Does your horse canter correctly without a rider on top? My PSSM mare struggles with a rider which I suspect is the muscular issue and will hopefully resolve as she strengthens up - we have a definite 'hitch' behind and can't even get a canter unless there's a big run up. Without a rider we get a beautiful canter on both reins, flying changes and spins a polo pony would be proud of!


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## Casey76 (31 August 2016)

alainax said:



			I very much hope it is not something medically wrong and she gets the all clear. 

How is she for picking up the correct lead? What does she do on the lunge? Does she fix it or continue with it? Does she rush? 

 I have one who will disunite or pick up the wrong lead very easily, counter canter without a care!  He looks like he is for example bent to the left. Bend looks uniform along his length, so it can be baffling. However if he drops a shoulder slightly,  or puts his weight just a fraction to the opposite, he will pick up the right lead. This sometimes manifests in being disunited, as he will strike off correct from behind, but has already shifted weight in the front. This is a horse who finds lateral work easy, moves sideways and away from your leg with ease, and once in canter its gorgeous. Its just getting there. 

We have lessons and are working on it, its just one of those little hurdles. 

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she has always found canter particularly difficult, and for a loooong time she couldn't canter in a 20x40 school as there wasn't enough space.  Even now, after 3 years, and I'd say 18 months of intense training anything less than a 20m circle is exceptionally hard work.

For the longest time we had horrendous issues with canter right, and she would 95% of the time go off on the left lead.  It has taken a lot of persistence and repetition - and a lot of setting up the transition - to get her to consistently take the right lead.  Now the right canter feels better/stronger than the left, which is her naturally dominant/easy side.  During training her canter felt 4-beat a lot of the time and I had to really open her up to get a true 3-beat canter.  Before she had her sick note, we were doing really great canter work starting on shallow loops and counter canter, and in my own time figure-8s with a 1 stride simple change in the middle.

The actual transition has been very hit and miss in the past, even now if I don't have her properly balanced and on the aids she won't transition or she will take a half stride and go on the wrong lead - I'm getting very good at feeling that and stopping it before it happens now!

BUT - her canter always feels rushed, and has two speeds - fast and faster - no lollopy-bowling-along canter - though that could also be because she is 13.3 and has short legs 



SEL said:



			Does your horse canter correctly without a rider on top? My PSSM mare struggles with a rider which I suspect is the muscular issue and will hopefully resolve as she strengthens up - we have a definite 'hitch' behind and can't even get a canter unless there's a big run up. Without a rider we get a beautiful canter on both reins, flying changes and spins a polo pony would be proud of!
		
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On the lunge she will canter on the right lead about 98% of the time.  But she needs a lot of encouragement and exact timing of the aids to get her to canter, and she tends to fall back to trot after only a few strides.  She also leans on the rein a lot for support.

Ridden, we generally don't need any kind of run up, and our walk to canter isn't too bad after the first couple of tries.


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## Casey76 (31 August 2016)

thanks everyone for your input, it is all very insightful and giving me lots to think about


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## Scatterbrain (31 August 2016)

Casey76 said:



			Was the actual trot work OK though Scatterbrain?  Tartine is 100% sound in trot, including lateral work such as LY, SI, travers on a 2,3 and 4 track work.  It is only in the canter that the "hitch" is showing.
		
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He was always 100% sound in walk and trot. It was his reluctance to maintain canter that worried me initially, plus he favoured the left rein canter lead. He was much happier trotting. This went on for many months as I assumed he was just being evasive/lazy. He eventually started putting in the odd "hitch" in trot too, especially going uphill and it was then I realised he needed a lameness workup. Scans revealed PSD both hinds, the right worse than the left.


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## Casey76 (5 September 2016)

OK, just to give a quick update.

Tartine managed to confound the osteopath by being the most blocked he has ever seen in a horse.  Complete seizure from the middle of the back right through the sacrum and both hips.  For once poll and neck not too bad.  We were puzzling over what she has done, as he only saw her at the beginning on Jun, and she has had 4 weeks off work in the interim too.  My only thought is that she's gone splat in the field, possibly done a Bambi, or lost her back legs behind her.

She was a complete sweetheart during the manipulations, some of which were obviously more than a bit uncomfortable for her.

Since then, she has had 3 days complete rest, and I have to lunge her gently today before I can ride her tomorrow.

I have been warned that during canter she might go disunited at first due to remembered pain, but I need to keep trying; but if it isn't better in a week to get him back out.

Having said that, if it doesn't improve this week, I'll get the vet out next week for a comprehensive work up.


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## samleigh (5 September 2016)

Sorry, but my mare was totally blocked, sore on every point on her quarters, it started a journey of investigations ending in a diagnosis of PSD, she also went disunited a lot in her canter.


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## LinzyD (5 September 2016)

Hi Casey

No-one has mentioned the pony's conformation, but from looking at your photo - and of course it's only a snapshot, so may not give an accurate impression - I'd say the pony is croup high and a little camped out behind, both of which mean it's going to take longer than average to develop a good canter.  Having said that, I experienced what you are describing with a youngster I had, also croup high, gave him longer than I would have expected, and when there was still an issue I had him checked out and discovered he'd got defective cartilage in both stifles, which was corrected with surgery.  Interestingly, he too presented tightness over his back, but this was a secondary issue resulting from the mechanical issue in the stifles.  

When your pony goes disunited does it feel as though she's sort of propping behind, kind of jarring you in your seat?  My pony felt as though the movement was up behind me rather than underneath me, if that makes sense.  And does she go disunited more often on a softer surface than on say a firm field?  And when she's not disunited does it still feel uncomfortable to you?  

Keep us posted; it's so interesting and useful to share experiences.  Oh, and good luck and fingers crossed...


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## MaeBee93 (5 September 2016)

This is screaming sacroiliac pain to me, my mare has this problem! If it is then steroids, physio, tailored work regime and a lot of careful management has worked wonders so far but in the end it puts a limit on what they are capable of! we haven't gone back to jumping yet but hacking and basic school work is still within her capabilities. Time will tell I guess :blue::blue:

Speak to your vet, they may suggest a bone scan which really is worth it to find the location of any problems.


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## Fidgety (5 September 2016)

milliepops said:



			I hope it's something simple for you. But I'm afraid the horses I've known who have had this kind of issue with canter have turned out to have SI joint issues/problems with suspensories    They can work perfectly well in other paces and not show any other signs.

.
		
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For me as well (high suspensory desmitis)


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## clairebearnz (6 September 2016)

My horse had a fall in the paddock in April and pinched a nerve in his back and was ataxic behind. He recovered within the first week, but even when walk and trot were normal, he tended to drop disunited in canter which he'd never done before regularly. He'd also 'bunny hop' behind where both hind legs landed together. He has since recovered fully thankfully, and his canter is back to normal. From what I have read, mild neurological problems tend to show up most in the canter. If the vet is coming out, it may be worth asking about a neurological exam.


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## Casey76 (7 September 2016)

Arse, ******, and other sweary words...

My instructor rode Tartine on Monday, and said that she was "OK," not brilliant, and the canter wasn't great at all.

I lunged her yesterday (just in a head collar), and she was very unenthusiastic.  Needed a lot of encouragement to trot out (although she was tracking up fine), and had a tendency to carry herself counter bent, on both reins.

She has never gone disunited on the lunge in canter, so I wasn't expecting to see that, but she was going very close behind - not quite bunny hopping, but really not striding properly.

Phoned the vet this morning and requested a full lameness work up, and also requested bloods for PPID, EMS and PSSM.  My usual vet is on holiday this week, so he'll call me on Monday next week to arrange a time.

What I'm more concerned with at the moment is that T isn't her normal chilled out self.  She has a nostril wrinkle thing going on and a raised/tight eyebrow thing going on.  She is hyper alert when in her box and although she is hungry enough, eating all of her hay and food, she isn't showing much interest in grazing, and spends a lot of her turnout (when I'm there to see) just standing around looking a bit down.

I'm really trying not to dwell too much on all things negative, but I can't deny that I'm starting to get a bit worried.

She isn't the type of pony I can turn away (if it comes to that), as she needs such careful dietary and exercise management to keep her weight anywhere near reasonable.

****** (again)


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## HeresHoping (7 September 2016)

Casey76 said:



			Arse, ******, and other sweary words...

My instructor rode Tartine on Monday, and said that she was "OK," not brilliant, and the canter wasn't great at all.

I lunged her yesterday (just in a head collar), and she was very unenthusiastic.  Needed a lot of encouragement to trot out (although she was tracking up fine), and had a tendency to carry herself counter bent, on both reins.

She has never gone disunited on the lunge in canter, so I wasn't expecting to see that, but she was going very close behind - not quite bunny hopping, but really not striding properly.

Phoned the vet this morning and requested a full lameness work up, and also requested bloods for PPID, EMS and PSSM.  My usual vet is on holiday this week, so he'll call me on Monday next week to arrange a time.

What I'm more concerned with at the moment is that T isn't her normal chilled out self.  She has a nostril wrinkle thing going on and a raised/tight eyebrow thing going on.  She is hyper alert when in her box and although she is hungry enough, eating all of her hay and food, she isn't showing much interest in grazing, and spends a lot of her turnout (when I'm there to see) just standing around looking a bit down.

I'm really trying not to dwell too much on all things negative, but I can't deny that I'm starting to get a bit worried.

She isn't the type of pony I can turn away (if it comes to that), as she needs such careful dietary and exercise management to keep her weight anywhere near reasonable.

****** (again)
		
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Oh Casey. I'm sorry. I was hoping not to see this sort of an update.

Firstly, let's not panic too much. It could be a suspensory. It takes a while and care will be needed, but suspensories can be repaired.  It could be SI issues. Again, they can, with time, be fixed. She's young.

Second, turning away need not be a nightmare. Large field, large herd, they start to self-regulate. Worst case scenario, she gets a muzzle for some of the time and comes in to a bare paddock at night. We're not all blessed with track paradise systems or horses that don't mind box rest. I've managed to get my very much lives on fresh air Connie to lose and keep the weight off despite very little work since March through soaking hay, feeding fibre only plus supplements and a muzzle during the day.  I know things are different en France but it'll be a case of improvise, adapt and overcome.

Fingers very, very firmly crossed for it being something easily mended in time.

And if you can, get an ArcEquine unit.


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## Casey76 (7 September 2016)

Thanks HH.

The subject of turn out is a bit of a prickly one.  On my current yard I get approx. 12 hours out at the moment, in a paired paddock.  That is the best I'm aware of in the area.  Most yards don't do herd turn out, and certainly not every day/consistently.  The fact that we're going into winter makes things much more difficult, when a lot of places stipulate no turn out between October and April.

At the moment Tartine is maintaining weight on 12 hour soaked weighed hay + chaff for supplements+ muzzled turnout.  She really needs to lose at least another 40kg, but she will only lose if I can work her twice a day (as I've found out this year).

Still, trying not to think too much about the what ifs, until I know something more definite...


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## JanetGeorge (7 September 2016)

I would be starting with something a bit more simple and starting with long-lining in an Equi-ami to try and build that very lacking topline!  And I'd be looking at 4 weeks of that before lunging on a circle for another 4 weeks - starting on a 20m circle - again in the Equi-ami - and after a week or two, bringing her down to 10 metres and then pushing out to 20 again.

I would suspect that conformation issues were the start - and continued - with her never learning to work properly - can she do long, low and out??


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## Goldenstar (7 September 2016)

JanetGeorge said:



			I would be starting with something a bit more simple and starting with long-lining in an Equi-ami to try and build that very lacking topline!  And I'd be looking at 4 weeks of that before lunging on a circle for another 4 weeks - starting on a 20m circle - again in the Equi-ami - and after a week or two, bringing her down to 10 metres and then pushing out to 20 again.

I would suspect that conformation issues were the start - and continued - with her never learning to work properly - can she do long, low and out??
		
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At his would be my approach but I would start using a lunging rope over the back between the fore legs to the bit .
I would also do lots of work on her eye to hoof coordination which is just stepping over all sorts of different things .
I set this up for mine in the wood using fallen branches on slopes and strange angles I lunge walk them about the place it is amazingly effective .


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## Casey76 (8 September 2016)

JanetGeorge said:



			I would be starting with something a bit more simple and starting with long-lining in an Equi-ami to try and build that very lacking topline!  And I'd be looking at 4 weeks of that before lunging on a circle for another 4 weeks - starting on a 20m circle - again in the Equi-ami - and after a week or two, bringing her down to 10 metres and then pushing out to 20 again.

I would suspect that conformation issues were the start - and continued - with her never learning to work properly - can she do long, low and out??
		
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Hi JG, thanks for your input.  I don't think her topline is too bad - can you point out to me why you think it is so lacking (I need to get my eye in more!).  T has lost approx. 90kg since the beginning of May, and it's taken a lot of effort to reduce her crest and fat pads along her neck (now thankfully both gone!).

She works well in an Equi-ami, and was doing 20-30 mins every day before she injured herself.  It is only recently that she has had the issues with cantering on the lunge, prior to this she was striding properly, though it was really hard work for her, and couldn't maintain a canter for more than 1 20m circle.  She has no issues with going long and low (and out) ridden, but needs a lot of reminders to stay there on the lunge (I'm a real novice lunger, and can only do basics).



Goldenstar said:



			At his would be my approach but I would start using a lunging rope over the back between the fore legs to the bit .
I would also do lots of work on her eye to hoof coordination which is just stepping over all sorts of different things .
I set this up for mine in the wood using fallen branches on slopes and strange angles I lunge walk them about the place it is amazingly effective .
		
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GS she has no issues with proprioception (unlike me!) the only thing she really doesn't like is stepping over poles etc while going backwards, especially if she has to do her hind feet first (i.e. hasn't stopped either side of the pole)

Thanks to everyone for your continued input and advice/thoughts  it really is appreciated!


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## Goldenstar (8 September 2016)

The perception work is not just just for horses with whom the coordination is poor .
It's also ups the effectiveness of the work on the muscles because the horse is constantly having to use it muscles to adjust the step some longer some shorter 
And if the horse is holding itself to avoid discomfort the steps over things makes them work those bits without thinking .


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## Casey76 (9 September 2016)

Well, I'm now feeling as guilty as hell.

Rode T last night just for a gentle 30 mins, spirals in and out of a 20m circle, lots of 3 loop serpentines maintaining either left or right bend (so 1 loop would be true bend, the next counter bend)  Exercises like this always get her working well into the bridle and accepting the contact, and get her stretching over her back (I can tell I'm going to need a long warm up if/when I ever get competing!).

However, I'm now starting to (over analyze, probably) question things like the consistent reluctance/difficulty getting her to work properly through on the right rein; our enormous issues with her picking up the right canter lead on the right rein etc; are they actually symptoms of an underlying issue, opposed to a "normal" one-sided ness.

Had a canter on each rein at the end just to see what it was like - basically pretty bloddy awful - I wanted to cry when I got off.

My instructor is just about giving up saying she has a defective stride and we'll never compete; though the disunited thing is relatively new, the actual canter itself has always been awful.  Has she had an underlying issue since before  bought her?  I paid through the nose for extra xrays at her PPE, but I didn't go any higher than her hocks.  I mean she was an unused, green as grass, just-turned-6yo when I bought her.  Why would I even think about xraying any further than hocks? right?

I'm meant to have a lesson on her tomorrow, but I'm so disheartened, (and feeling very guilty) I think I should just cancel.  Even if she appears to be sound in walk and trot, she could be in a lot of discomfort and I wouldn't really know, as she just doesn't show it (she is the complete opposite of a drama queen, I've scrubbed/deep cleaned and stapled a leg wound on her while she was standing loose on the yard, and she didn't even batter an eyelash).

I'm really looking forward to speaking with the vet on Monday, just so I can at least get a plan of attack together to see what we can do to investigate/sort out.

And sorry for the self pitying post...


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## milliepops (9 September 2016)

don't go off the deep end until you know what you're dealing with.
The change in the canter is what would make me want to investigate rather than to just push through it, so IMO you're doing the right thing by getting the vet involved.

Put your instructor's comments out of your mind for now - and if you think she's sore you'll just be worrying then cancel the lesson (or can you ride your gelding instead?)

Don't beat yourself up, you're clearly trying to do the right thing and I'm sure T isn't suffering. 

There could be 2 things going on- it's perfectly possible that she's got something acute that's suddenly come on and caused the disuniting problem, which could be treated, and an underlying general weakness that will improve through training. My Sec D had a terrible canter when I got her, awful wall of death type canter, couldn't even keep going on a hack. She's taken a lot of training but now it's going to be her best pace.  Just mentioning this because I could have written her off as too rubbish to compete at that stage, but it just needed time and correct work.

Put it on ice until Monday, you aren't going to improve anything by stressing out between now and then.


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## Scatterbrain (9 September 2016)

I would be cancelling tomorrow's lesson and resting her until your vet has done a proper investigation. Horses are masters of disguising pain and will compensate as long as they can before revealing there is an issue.


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## eventer28 (9 September 2016)

Do you know the full breeding of your horse? Could she have some standardbred/trotter/pacer ancestry?


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## Casey76 (9 September 2016)

eventer28 said:



			Do you know the full breeding of your horse? Could she have some standardbred/trotter/pacer ancestry?
		
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Only a couple of ancestors are missing from her 5 generation family tree.  She is pure bred Mérens going back to the 1950s - no trotters there


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## eventer28 (12 September 2016)

Ahh a Merens? They can be gaited - this could be part of your problem?


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## Casey76 (12 September 2016)

eventer28 said:



			Ahh a Merens? They can be gaited - this could be part of your problem?
		
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Really?  I've been a Mérens enthusiast for over 5 years, and I've never read (or heard) anywhere that they can be gaited.

What gaits can they exhibit?


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## supsup (12 September 2016)

Having a gaited horse myself, I have to say the initial description of the difficulties to canter (also on lunge) did ring a bell for me. But I doubt being gaited is the issue here. For one, it is really, really difficult to teach a properly gaited horse counter canter, they just tend to "stick another leg in" and go all four-beat if they get unbalanced, and counter canter is asking quite a bit.
It took my gelding a very long time to learn to canter in the school at anything other than a headlong rush, and he still has a tendency to jump in front and run behind, go four-beat or very lateral (in the direction of pace). He doesn't usually disunite, but I know some very pacey horses that have a tendency for it (since they come from pace, where one lateral pair of legs is in sync, and that leg pair remains in sync in the disunited canter).
I think what might be a commonality is that the canter gets decidedly worse the more tense the horse is through the back. My gelding once "lost" his canter on the one rein. I got a physio and saddler out and found some mild tension/pain in the loin area. Once he had recovered from that (and the saddle was fitting well), the canter on that rein was back as well. And if he's very tense (e.g. at a competition) he sometimes loses all gaits other than four-beat (walk, tolt). I couldn't trot or canter him at all in that case.
I found that poles really help to get that "jump" into the canter, and opening up a bit on the long side to get a good rhythm and jump, then try and maintain it around the corner onto a circle is also helpful. And for my gelding, who likes to work quite long and strung-out, it's also really helpful to keep him in a shorter frame and more "together". If I leave him longer, he's just so much on the forehand from the start that he finds it quite difficult to balance. 
Fingers crossed you can work out what the (possible) physical problems are, and get back to training.


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## Casey76 (12 September 2016)

supsup said:



			Having a gaited horse myself, I have to say the initial description of the difficulties to canter (also on lunge) did ring a bell for me. But I doubt being gaited is the issue here. For one, it is really, really difficult to teach a properly gaited horse counter canter, they just tend to "stick another leg in" and go all four-beat if they get unbalanced, and counter canter is asking quite a bit.
It took my gelding a very long time to learn to canter in the school at anything other than a headlong rush, and he still has a tendency to jump in front and run behind, go four-beat or very lateral (in the direction of pace). He doesn't usually disunite, but I know some very pacey horses that have a tendency for it (since they come from pace, where one lateral pair of legs is in sync, and that leg pair remains in sync in the disunited canter).
I think what might be a commonality is that the canter gets decidedly worse the more tense the horse is through the back. My gelding once "lost" his canter on the one rein. I got a physio and saddler out and found some mild tension/pain in the loin area. Once he had recovered from that (and the saddle was fitting well), the canter on that rein was back as well. And if he's very tense (e.g. at a competition) he sometimes loses all gaits other than four-beat (walk, tolt). I couldn't trot or canter him at all in that case.
I found that poles really help to get that "jump" into the canter, and opening up a bit on the long side to get a good rhythm and jump, then try and maintain it around the corner onto a circle is also helpful. And for my gelding, who likes to work quite long and strung-out, it's also really helpful to keep him in a shorter frame and more "together". If I leave him longer, he's just so much on the forehand from the start that he finds it quite difficult to balance. 
Fingers crossed you can work out what the (possible) physical problems are, and get back to training.
		
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No, I don't believe that this is gaited related.  Tartine has never shown any inclination towards ambling; she has a true diagonal trot, and the defect in canter only appeared about 3 months ago (noted in May, saw an osteo in Jun which sorted it out, then had some time off due to an unrelated injury, and then had this second gait disturbance at the end of July.

Prior to her leg injury (which was a skin deep cut on her inner thigh sustained when scratching on her outdoor abuvoir), her canter work was coming on amazingly.  We were doing shallow loops, SI and simple changes on a figure 8, and also some true counter canter... which is why this is so frustrating.

My instructor is out of ideas, if it was a training issue - hence the reason for getting the vet out


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## Casey76 (17 September 2016)

OK, quick update with this...

I had a lovely vet come out yesterday who spent quite some time getting a history and listening to my thoughts.  She saw T being lunged (on our normal school surface) and agreed that there is an issue (*phew* at least I now know I'm not completely bonkers!). It was great to have another pair of eyes on the ground and the vet suggested that she seems to be a little uncomfortable in her left stifle.

After we walked back round to the stables, we talked a bit about what else could be the problem, and how we could approach the issue.  So the first thing we did was an ovarian scan, and although there were no gross deformities (no tumors etc), her left ovary had several (6 or 7) large follicles, and her ovary was about the size of the vets' full hand.  The right ovary had one very large follicle, which may or not be persistent given the density on the ultrasound.  So we've drawn blood for a hormonal panel to make sure her male and female hormones are at the correct ratios.  At the same time we've also drawn blood for a general blood panel plus vitamin and mineral levels, PPID and PSSM.

The hormone panel needs to go to America, so I won't get the results for about 4 weeks. In the mean time I'm to keep working her as normal, with plenty of suppling exercises.

If the hormone panel comes back normal, the next thing we'all do is X-ray her back, and after that it starts to get a bit complicated, as there is only one clinic in Switzerland, and one in Germany who do scintigraphy and that will be the step after X-rays.

In the mean time, T is being her lovely normal self, and I'm really pleased with the pair of us today as we did our very first steps of half-pass


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## milliepops (19 September 2016)

Sounds like a plan is coming together, which always makes me feel better.  And also nice to know you aren't going mad.
So has she discounted the stifle for now, pending the bloods? I don't envy you having to wait, I am so thankful to have a big equine vet practice within 30 min drive.


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## Casey76 (19 September 2016)

Thanks M . At the moment T is really tight over her loin (again), so the vet was thinking the stifle issue could be referred from that.  For her it was more important to keep T moving and continue suppling exercises etc to stop her completely boarding up than it was to stop riding etc, especially as I've backed off working T hard she is gaining weight again, despite being on diet rations and muzzle.

Fortunately the vet said that while T isn't a skinnymalink she isn't hugely fat either, and the breed in general are a very "round" breed, so she wasn't too concerned about that, especially as I have the diet and muzzle etc already locked down.

I should hear today about the results of the vitamin/mineral and general blood panel.  The results for PPID and PSSM will be at the end of this week.


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## brucea (19 September 2016)

Well for a start I would be doing NOTHING - especially not serpentines, circles, half pass pass or  ANYTHING outside of walking out with a  horse with these kind of symptoms.

Walking out is not a soft option for your horse - you can work a horse very hard in walk, I think it's the toughest pace for them to go forward in. But there's no lateral or circles.

Anything from SI down through spavins you should not be doing this, I must admit when I read your first post and the age of the horse, I thought spavin and back and pelvis pain are often secondaries from spavin. 

But no one on here is a vet as far as I know so anything anyone writes is speculative. What's not speculative is that you shouldn't be making a situation worse so my advice for what it's worth would be to stay out of the school and stay away from schooling for a while - if this is spavin or SI troubles or PSD then you're doing the worst things you can for your horse.

Sorry - that's probably not what you wanted to hear, and why I don't come in here very often these days. 

P.S. Your Osteopath's opinion may be interesting, but is  not diagnostic. You need to get your vet's diagnosis.


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## brucea (19 September 2016)

PPS> And if it is ovary issues or hindgut pain then asking for circles and stepping under lateral movements may be uncomfortable for her, so it's not really fair to ask.


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## Casey76 (19 September 2016)

Bruce, my vet told me I should continue to work her as normal.  The vet knows that I do a lot of schooling, and on what kind of surface that is done on. 

Tartine doesn't present like a spavin.  My old horse had spavins (both old and active), and his gait was completely different to T, especially in trot.  Though I do understand it can be dependent in which of the hock joints the osteogenic activity is in.


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## Wagtail (19 September 2016)

brucea said:



			Well for a start I would be doing NOTHING - especially not serpentines, circles, half pass pass or  ANYTHING outside of walking out with a  horse with these kind of symptoms.

Walking out is not a soft option for your horse - you can work a horse very hard in walk, I think it's the toughest pace for them to go forward in. But there's no lateral or circles.

Anything from SI down through spavins you should not be doing this, I must admit when I read your first post and the age of the horse, I thought spavin and back and pelvis pain are often secondaries from spavin. 

But no one on here is a vet as far as I know so anything anyone writes is speculative. What's not speculative is that you shouldn't be making a situation worse so my advice for what it's worth would be to stay out of the school and stay away from schooling for a while - if this is spavin or SI troubles or PSD then you're doing the worst things you can for your horse.

Sorry - that's probably not what you wanted to hear, and why I don't come in here very often these days. 

P.S. Your Osteopath's opinion may be interesting, but is  not diagnostic. You need to get your vet's diagnosis.
		
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This^^

I am open mouthed that this horse is still being worked. I know you care a lot for her, OP but I am shocked both by your oesteopath's advice (saying to keep on going as will be remembered pain) and by your vet's. I know you are doing nothing wrong as just following their advice, but I implore you to rest this horse for several months before recommencing strengthening work. Personally, I would be turning away/resting for at least 6 months before starting her again very gradually with back strengthening work (long reining or straightness exercises in hand). She is very obviously in pain from your description.


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## ester (19 September 2016)

I haven't posted before but the pic from july does bother me, the lack of top line and musculature given her age, F has more at 23 after 8 weeks of light walk work and she looks as if she is holding her back end.


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## looby loo (20 September 2016)

Hi my horse displayed all the signs u mention , I tried all other aspects such as oesteo physio saddler, new saddle ,rest , Bute test ,lunge work to strengthen ,but still the canter was odd . Horse sound in walk and trot maybe lacking abit of engagement on one rein , done a dressage test Bd and gained 68% no mention of lameness .months later Had lameness work up done in vets practice and came back left stifle pain . Xrays/scans showed slight changes to Cartlidge and a dent in one of ridges . Went ahead with arthroscopy on vets advice . We are now a week after surgery and I cant believe the difference in my horses posture ! As you state my horse also showed pain over loins n croup and also just behind the wither and had a very low head carriage . After just a weeks he looks more upright and not so croup high and generally happier n striding out 100% better. It just brings home how much he must of been in pain before hand but I must of gradually over time got used to his way as I see him every day his can't always been crap since backing so put it down to strengthening issues . Will be a few months before I see him canter but be interesting to see the diff as vet said could canter perfect when stifle blocked !


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## tristar (20 September 2016)

hi casey, so sorry to hear about the problem with tartine.

But, if she was mine, and i know she is`nt, so i should shut up really, but just thought i would share this, this is what i would do, end of last year, my big horse hurt himself somehow, to cut a long story short, he also had a stifle issue as well, locking, i knew he was`nt right and we could`nt find the problem. so i rested him, i did a little walking around when he felt like it, and gradually he has got better, i mean he was`nt even lame, but i thought i will just accept the situation and back off,  today he is very very good, the locking stifle has gone and the problem from the accident seems to have cleared itself completely and he is moving forward very well and happy to do so, so i do find myself that when something is`nt right i just listen to the horse and take the gentle route.

i know they have said to work her  but i would not, she is young and you have the years to come with her,  maybe walks inhand might help, but i know how worrying and frustrating these situations are, so best of luck.


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## tristar (20 September 2016)

forgot to say the chiro said my horse was sore over the loin region.


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## Casey76 (20 September 2016)

Thanks again, everyone, for your input.  I admit I was a bit upset last night to see the comments, but everyone is allowed their opinion.  I'm not some child with their first pony, and I'm doing my best to follow the expert advice I am getting from my veterinary team.

Today I had the first set of blood results back, and it is a mixture of news...

Firstly, Tartine doesn't have PPID  the ACTH came back at 16.7mc (or is it pg - I don't have the results sheet in front of me) - so well below the diagnostic level.

The bad news is that it looks like T has a muscle metabolism disorder - I won't get the results of the PSSM test back until Friday, and as the (senior partner) vet said today, it is still a bit of an "exotic" disorder, and despite Tartine being a draught-type pony, PSSM isn't really known in Merens at all.

However, both the CK (1,270) and LDH (1000+) were extremely elevated,more than that which could be accounted for by the marginally decreased selenium (which I already supplement for); because both enzymes are elevated, the vet said this is more indicative of a metabolism disorder than an acute muscle injury.

He was a bit perturbed that the enzymes are so high despite T being on a low carb (total forage diet with <10% starch and sugar combined) diet since May, and said that in May it was likely the enzymes would have been much higher.

T has never shown any overt signs of tying up, so now I have to manage this, with regular blood tests for the time being.  I'm going to start her on a PSSM diet and basically do a lot of reading on muscule metabolism disorders in horses.

I've cancelled all of my future lessons, and will have to don my big girl pants and get hacking, at least until I can build up her regular exercise to the intensity of a schooling session.

Despite this, there is still the issue of the "non-standard" ovaries, so I'm still waiting for the results of the hormone panel.

I'm expecting to have an indeterminate discussion with the first vet again, once I get the results of the PSSM test back.

I am fairly gutted about all of this, as being on livery in France is not the ideal situation for a "special needs" pony :/


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## Goldenstar (20 September 2016)

This is not great news .
I have not got any clever advice , you just have to do the best you can with everything you have .
Fatty has partial anhidrosis ( non sweating syndrome )and he has these tying up incidents where he experiances non of the stiffness and inability to move you would expect to see, the only way you know it's  if you see his pee ( it's Coke coloured )you get a blood test and it's off the scale for the markers usually seen in azoturia.
Not the same as Tantine I know ,but even though the vets have no concrete answers about what's going on with him he now 15 and still working and enjoying his life .
I have learnt how to manage him over the years .
This may not be the disaster it seems today it's likely there's a way through it .


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## milliepops (21 September 2016)

It's a disappointing result, but you are closer to knowing what you are dealing with so that's a positive thing. Keeping my fingers crossed that the vets can help you draw up a management regime that fits in with French livery. Chin up. You're doing all the right things x


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## Casey76 (26 September 2016)

Latest update:

I'm still waiting for the results of the blood test (PSSM type 1 is tested via blood over here/in Germany), but in the meantime, I have the ALCAR and vitamin E oil on order.  I had some vitamin E powder in my "apothecary" from a while ago, so I'm trying to get Tartine to eat that; though it appears that my very unfussy mare doesn't like the taste of it, so I'm going to have to come up with a way of disguising it.  I was thinking about a pureed carrot.

In other news, I had a different osteopath come to see her, after the vet said T was completely blocked in her back again.  This osteo is a lady who has a slightly different philosophy than the ones I normally use; much more gentle and more into massage, especially along the back.  It was very interesting.  T was completely locked up in all her thoracic vertebrae, had a bit of relief in her lumbar vertebrae but locked up again through the last 2 lumbar and her sacral vertebrae.  The vet had noted that T wasn't carrying her tail, and the osteo confirmed that her tail had basically been locked up in a clamped position.  After the manipulation it was a lot better.  The osteo asked to see T being lunged to see how she was moving, and after a week of no work, I could see how stiff she was, completely not tracking up in trot.  Normally I would have said she was being lazy, but now I can see that she is actually stiff.

When it came to her haunches (and T has a lot of muscle mass there), the osteo said that although the surface muscle was quite pliant the deep muscles were very contracted.  She recommended a colleague who has a special massaging device to come and evaluate T because at the moment her muscles are so tight that they are going to keep making everything else lock up/pull out of alignment.  This lady is based north of Strasbourg (more than an hour and a half away), but fortunately I am going to share a call out with another client on the yard.

In the meantime, I've made the decision to stop riding T until I can get her diet and initial therapy sorted out, I'll retest her blood in a month to make sure her enzymes are coming down and then we'll start from the beginning, 30 mins walking and build up from there.

I am absolutely gutted that I didn't take more notice of her overall symptoms, rather that looking at the canter problem as a training issue (a few weeks ago T lay down to roll, got up and down several times and displayed other mildly colicky symptoms.  I stayed to watch her for a couple of hours, be she seemed fine so I shrugged and put it down to "one of those things"' she often rubs all the way along the walls of her box, which I've always attributed to either being itchy, or with her being in season; she rolls A LOT in the field - the first thing she does when put out is roll 6 or 7 times).  One thing I have noted though, is that the symptoms do seem to be cresendoing, so I really hope I've managed to stave off a catastrophic tying up episode.

Of course if she does come back positive for PSSM, it is going to be a real blow to the breed, which is still considered to be an endangered breed (only 460 foals registered last year and 70 approved stallions), and as they almost became extinct in the 70s, bloodlines are very close, and it is almost impossible not to have two Merens related at some point in the previous 3 generations.


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## tristar (26 September 2016)

hi casey,you said you did your first half pass recently so you are doing great, if its any help i`ve found that they don`t lose the ability to work at the level they are at even with time off, just the fitness, obviously, but my neighbour walks out my stallion in hand and after his work is wonderful!  so what i`m trying to say is even if you can`t ride perhaps you can get her out for walks, its a great  for conditioning the whole horse, and you will still be doing something to her overall benefit, mental and physical.

hopefully one day in the not too distant future you will be sorted  and looking back on this episode, the things we have to go through with horses!.


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## FfionWinnie (26 September 2016)

If she has PSSM no exercise will make her worse.    Also, massage is of limited help at this stage if a) diet is not right, b) exercise is not carried out. c) correct supplementation isn't in place. 

So, if she were mine I would be hand walking her or setting up a track, minimum. 

They don't need to have an outwardly full blown tie up to be tying up. My mare had CK and AST levels off the scale (scale goes up to 100,000 normal being low hundreds) and her symptoms were not tracking up when she usually over tracks and a bit grumpy when she's usually very friendly. Outwardly she was hardly noticeably ill, inside she was close to severe damage. The vet misdiagnosed her as slightly colicky and it was only because I saw her urine and we tested her levels that we knew the extent of the tie up. 

That was nearly 2 years ago now and she has led (with the right management) a near normal life since. 

However if I had listened to several vets, dietitians and other "experts" about what to feed and what to do, the outcome may not be quite as good. 

Make sure no supplements or anything else she eats contains fillers or molasses. Nearly every off the shelf supplement will be bulked out with some sort of junk she can't have. 

Is your powdered vitamin e natural or synthetic. If synthetic she needs double the amount of natural.  If natural she needs 5000-10000iu per day. I wouldn't use synthetic myself as natural is more bioavailable.  Also I'm sure you know this but be careful it doesn't contain selenium. I had a woman contact me for advice last week who had been doubling the supplement to provide more vit e without realising the implications of too much se. 

Unfortunately it only requires one copy of the gene to make the horse symptomatic so highly difficult to breed out in such a small gene pool. Also people will be in denial because they always are. 

It's not a death sentence but it's something buyers need to stand together about and encourage breeders to test and eradicate.


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## SEL (26 September 2016)

Hi Casey - my mare never tied up visibly either and when I got the vet to pull her muscle enzymes she had been off work for 5 weeks & they were still elevated. She's always been on low sugar, starch too.

It will be a blow for the breed, but I believe about 60% of Belgian drafts have the gene and around the same % of Percheron horses so it isn't something that can be bred out of those old breeds overnight. I'm convinced that my 2 horses with it would be absolutely fine if they were ploughing the fields at a walk for hours on end daily - its just when we ask them for the faster work that the problems start to show up. I know it affects slow twitch / fast twitch muscles differently.

If you horse does have it then you will need to keep her working or the symptoms get worse. I did a LOT of in hand walking with mine and when the time came to get her trotting I had to lead her in hand up and down the lane outside our yard. She was too sore to lunge. 7 months on we are hacking and although improvement is slow it is definitely in the right direction.


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## Casey76 (26 September 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			Make sure no supplements or anything else she eats contains fillers or molasses. Nearly every off the shelf supplement will be bulked out with some sort of junk she can't have. 

Is your powdered vitamin e natural or synthetic. If synthetic she needs double the amount of natural.  If natural she needs 5000-10000iu per day. I wouldn't use synthetic myself as natural is more bioavailable.  Also I'm sure you know this but be careful it doesn't contain selenium. I had a woman contact me for advice last week who had been doubling the supplement to provide more vit e without realising the implications of too much se. 

Unfortunately it only requires one copy of the gene to make the horse symptomatic so highly difficult to breed out in such a small gene pool. Also people will be in denial because they always are. 

It's not a death sentence but it's something buyers need to stand together about and encourage breeders to test and eradicate.
		
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All her feed is Agrobs (less than 10% starch and sugar combined), and all her supplements are from Pro Earth (currently her all around supplement is Pro Laminae+) - this includes the vitamin E, which I believe is synthetic as I didn't want to pay for natural at the time I bought it a year ago.  It will have to do for now, as I'm having issues getting the vitamin E oil from Equimins (not very obliging posting overseas).  My ALCAR should be arriving today.

I am getting a selenium yeast separately, as despite normal supplementation, T has levels below the lower limit of normal (we are in a very selenium poor area).  I know not to buy a combined Vit E + Selenium sup


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