# Godolphin caught out.



## Caledonia (22 April 2013)

http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd?event_id=1054047

So wrong, and so bad for racing. I hope they throw the book at the whole operation not just the fall guy.


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## Elf On A Shelf (22 April 2013)

I never liked Al Zarooni or Barcelona! The young pretenders to Bin Suroor and Dettori. I hope they throw the book at him!


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## AdorableAlice (22 April 2013)

Where there is money.................


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## gadetra (22 April 2013)

Disgraceful. So bad for racing. Has done real damage to the sport. Although I don't know if it is a medication withdrawl/contaminated situation (excuse?) anabolic steroids are hardly medicinal. Get rid and ban immediately if not sooner. It can't be allowed to continue.


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## Clodagh (22 April 2013)

That is appalling. It seems the Arab horse world generally thinks of drugs as a plus and a necessity, looking at their endurance drugs results. Appalling. I hope they really cop it. The sheikh had no idea!? Yeah, right.


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## Caledonia (22 April 2013)

Apparently 10 out of 45 have tested positve according to this tweet: 

*BBC sport* - Godolphin trainer Mahmood Al Zaroonis yard found to have 10 of 45 horses tested come up positive for anabolic steroids, says BHA

I assume this wasn't random testing, so the suggestion is it's common practice. 

It's so bad for young horses - shame on them. Very glad their horrible practices are finally being looked into.


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## Alec Swan (22 April 2013)

Currently,  I suppose that it will only be speculation,  but I wonder just how far the probe will reach.  It's highly unlikely that it was the trainer who actually administered the drug,  so are the staff also complicit?  Are the owners,  though obviously _"appalled"_ (sic ),  also to take a share of the responsibility?  And if they do,  then perhaps Trainers may be a little more circumspect,  in the future,  and their owners a little less generous with their instructions! 

Alec.


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## Caledonia (22 April 2013)

I think it will have been Al Zarooni. It's known to be forbidden, so he wouldn't have staff doing it, especially as a new trainer. 

But you are absolutely right, Alec. He wouldn't have done it unsupported from above. Casts a pall on their recent winners too.

He's failed to pick up on the phrase ""What goes on in xxxx (Dubai), stays in xxxx and all that ......


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## Sportznight (22 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			He's failed to pick up on the phrase ""What goes on in xxxx (Dubai), stays in xxxx and all that ...... 

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## Clodagh (22 April 2013)

So am I very naive and is it standard practice? The thought of Frankel being pumped up to the eyeballs is tragic!


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## FinalFurlong (22 April 2013)

No it isn't standard practice and I'd be the first one to defend a wide population of trainers.

However, there are dodgy goings ons in most sports, drugging happens in endurance, dressage, SJ etc and it has to be stopped it is simply unacceptable. 

I am one of the biggest racing fans ever and I am appalled at this, I have never been a fan of the Godolphin clan myself nor Al Zarooni. 

It's just despicable how he can do this to a sport who already has enough pressure from the outsiders. This may be stereotypical/assuming things but ive never pictured Al Zarooni as a trainer to get up to feed his horses/care much about each individual. 

I'm disgusted. People like that should not be allowed to hold a license and I damn well hope he is banned.


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## JackAT (22 April 2013)

What really gets me is the bit where he says that he was under the impression that it was completely within the rules to pump up horses with steroids whilst they are training, as long as it isn't when they are racing!! 

What kind of trainer doesn't know the rulebook inside out?!?!

Can you imagine if Lancaster gave all of the England rugby team some steroids and said "ooh, sorry, didn't know you couldn't do it for training! I'll be better next time" 

Sounds like he's trying to justify it and paint a picture of innocence. That is infuriating.


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## FinalFurlong (22 April 2013)

JackAT said:



			What really gets me is the bit where he says that he was under the impression that it was completely within the rules to pump up horses with steroids whilst they are training, as long as it isn't when they are racing!! 

What kind of trainer doesn't know the rulebook inside out?!?!
		
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This!!!!! Its not even like it was a minor thing he wasn't aware of, it was one of the most major rules in the book!!!


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## Caledonia (22 April 2013)

Clodagh said:



			So am I very naive and is it standard practice? The thought of Frankel being pumped up to the eyeballs is tragic!
		
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Sorry if my comment misled you - it's not standard practice across the industry, but given other reported Godawful 'methods' I'm not remotely surprised.  

Disgusting operation.


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## Elf On A Shelf (22 April 2013)

It's very hard to get away with drugging in this country due to the routine drugs testing at the races. All well beaten favourites are tested, all bigger priced winners or places are tested, and most winners are tested regardless.


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## Clodagh (23 April 2013)

Thank good enss for that. I hope he gets a lifetime ban. What happens to people who have put ante post bets on Certify, for instance? Will you get a refund?


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## Caledonia (23 April 2013)

I think they've lost their money, unless the bookies/exchanges make special circumstances. But I doubt it.


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## Alec Swan (23 April 2013)

EKW said:



			It's very hard to get away with drugging in this country due to the routine drugs testing at the races. All well beaten favourites are tested, all bigger priced winners or places are tested, *and most winners are tested regardless.*

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So,  with such monitoring,  and then reading from the quote from the BHA (below),  was it a simple case of arrogance or are illegal drugs used during training,  with the hope that the residues are gone by the time that race day arrives?  To deny an understanding of the rules,  is adding insult to injury.

_"A BHA statement revealed that a total of 11 horses including Certify have been suspended from running as the result of a 'testing in training' sampling programme conducted. A total of 45 horses were tested on April 9 during a random visit that the BHA said arose from two positive tests on Al Zarooni horses in the previous 12 months".
_

Two positive tests,  from one yard in the last 12 months?  Would the quickest route for the message to get through,  not have been that the BHA take action after the first positive test?  

How TF does this system work?  Two strikes and your out?  Perhaps someone should point out to the BHA,  the JC and any other party with authority,  that this isn't a game of rounders.

Phipps was right,  the JC are spineless,  as are the BHA it seems.

I wonder if Zarooni's signed on yet,  it wouldn't surprise me.

Alec.


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## Elf On A Shelf (23 April 2013)

Of course banned substances are used in training - bute, sedation, certain steroids injected into joints for lubrication et al but they are controlled and trainers make sure the substance is well out of the system before the horse races. All such things are noted down in a medication book so should the BHA do a random spot check and blood test the whole yard  they can see why and when the drugs entered the system and will make sure no race entries can be made for the horse within the withdrawal period.

Very rarely do trainers use anabolic steroids due their long, long withdrawal period and there is no real veterinary reason for my their use. So why risk it?


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## JanetGeorge (23 April 2013)

EKW said:



			Very rarely do trainers use anabolic steroids due their long, long withdrawal period and there is no real veterinary reason for my their use. So why risk it?
		
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They had just started using steroids when I was involved in racing (mid-'70s).  They weren't picked up on routine tests - and of course a LOT less testing was done then.  My then boss (who was a TOP trainer of 2 year olds) resisted it for quite a while - until he had a very promising filly that went off her feed as fast as she came into serious work.  But some trainers had everything in their yard on them!  I got out of racing - so not sure of when the testing became more common - or successful.  But they were VERY useful in terms of getting an enhanced performance - particularly from 'sensitive' fillies!


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## amandap (23 April 2013)

Oh what a surprize!  A very rich yard that could afford the best in nutrition, exercize regime research even horses etc. and they still have to *cheat* and more importantly, put horses at risk. Very depressing but sadly as has been said "where there is money" but also where there is ego and cultural status... 

I balk at the thought many of the drugs, legal and illegal, used to get horses to perform myself. If a horse needs joint medication and pain killers should it even be in hard training? I've no idea how valid the warnings pre London marathon about pain killers affecting heart and body systems under stress of the run are but surely the same applies to horses.


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## Caledonia (23 April 2013)

EKW said:



			Very rarely do trainers use anabolic steroids due their long, long withdrawal period and there is no real veterinary reason for my their use. So why risk it?
		
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I'd agree on that in jumps racing, but not flat. 

Looking at some of the 2yo at the breeze-up sales, there's no way they look like that on work alone. 

I don't have a problem with keeping horses *legally* medicated if it keeps them happy and active. But that's not the same as using forbidden steroids to bulk up/keep in training.


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## AdorableAlice (23 April 2013)

Am I right in assuming the trainer, who is a  private trainer, would have a 'private veterinary surgeon' in the yard.

After all, these drugs are hardly purchased from Countrywide Farmers are they.

I cannot imagine the local equine vets being involved in this type of yard, the trainer has sourced the drugs from somewhere and I would think several people are involved and diving for cover at the moment.

No doubt the whole sordid story will be uncovered shortly.


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## claracanter (23 April 2013)

Sheik Mohammed prides himself on being very hands on with all the Godolphin horses, doesn't he? I bet he will try and distance himself now.


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## mon (23 April 2013)

Great worry for all involved at their Newmarket premises, they must employ loads and  if they pull out of them what happens?


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## angrovestud (23 April 2013)

A friend of my hubby use to fly the royals from Saudi in there jet to shop in London they have so many ways of getting stuff in like that!


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## Centauress (23 April 2013)

claracanter said:



			Sheik Mohammed prides himself on being very hands on with all the Godolphin horses, doesn't he?
		
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He Must have Know it was Going On....


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## Elf On A Shelf (23 April 2013)

Godolphin have their own vets onsite. Its would be easy to hide it from your stable staff - just go round with the vet when everyone has gone home. Thats what JHJ did!


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## zaminda (23 April 2013)

Haven't bans been imposed on the owner in endurance before? No way did he not know exactly what was going on. From the horses that I saw come over from Dubai having wintered over there, I would think it is common practice. The staff tend to have very long lunch breaks, and a lot of the ground staff are foreign, and are only over here to work there so they would keep there mouths shut. This leaves plenty of scope for all sorts of things to happen while the yard is relatively empty.


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## Caledonia (23 April 2013)

Yep, one of the Shakey Mo's horses (ridden by his son, possibly - not totally sure on that one) got 'withdrawn' at an overnight stage in a big endurance event before the comp vets dope tested it. Presumably because their own labs had realised it would fail. 

Refreshing, really, that the President of the FEI is married to someone with two recent major doping incidents clouding his name.


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## AdorableAlice (23 April 2013)

angrovestud said:



			A friend of my hubby use to fly the royals from Saudi in there jet to shop in London they have so many ways of getting stuff in like that!
		
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They would still be subject to customs and I doubt they would have drugs of any form stuffed in their hand luggage.


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## claracanter (23 April 2013)

First Frankie gets done for drugs while he was riding for Godolphin and now the horses are at it too!!!


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## amandap (23 April 2013)

claracanter said:



			First Frankie gets done for drugs while he was riding for Godolphin and now the horses are at it too!!!
		
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Lol, I think the horses are the ones innocent in all this.


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## fburton (23 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			I think they've lost their money, unless the bookies/exchanges make special circumstances. But I doubt it.
		
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Bookies to refund bets after Godolphin doping shock

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/racing/article3746932.ece


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## EstherYoung (23 April 2013)

zaminda said:



			Haven't bans been imposed on the owner in endurance before? No way did he not know exactly what was going on.
		
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Yup, he had a six month ban:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2009/apr/08/sheik-mohammed-doping-tahhan

ps It looks like it was the same steroid too....


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## Alec Swan (23 April 2013)

claracanter said:



			First Frankie gets done for drugs while he was riding for Godolphin and now the horses are at it too!!!
		
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Very good! 

Alec.


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## BigBuck's (23 April 2013)

EKW said:



			Very rarely do trainers use anabolic steroids due their long, long withdrawal period and there is no real veterinary reason for my their use. So why risk it?
		
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Anabolic steroids are one of the few substances banned for UK use at any point while the horse is in training in the trainer's yard, not just at the track.


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## Alec Swan (23 April 2013)

BigBuck's said:



			Anabolic steroids are one of the few substances banned for UK use at any point while the horse is in training in the trainer's yard, not just at the track.
		
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Blimey.  Thanks for that.  Even were it permitted,  you can bet that it wouldn't have featured on the individual medicines page of the passport.

Alec.


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## Caledonia (23 April 2013)

fburton said:



			Bookies to refund bets after Godolphin doping shock

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/racing/article3746932.ece

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Yeh, took their time today (nearly all afternoon), but once one started they all reluctantly followed suit!


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## Elf On A Shelf (23 April 2013)

To be fair its not for bookmakers to fix Godolphins problem! Godolphin should refund the bets!


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## Clodagh (23 April 2013)

So Sheikh Mohammed originally dumped his English trainers as they were not respectful enough, and employed his own. For respectful, should we read 'obedient?'


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## Echo Bravo (23 April 2013)

Sorry I'm confused, surely Frankel was trained by Henry Cecil, so how does he come into it and who was JHJ?


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## Clodagh (23 April 2013)

I mentioned Frankel, only because he is the only flat horse I have ever followed so was just saying if it is standard practice I couldn't bear to think of it...have since been told it isn't.
No idea who JHJ is.


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## BigBuck's (23 April 2013)

Echo Bravo said:



			Sorry I'm confused, surely Frankel was trained by Henry Cecil, so how does he come into it and who was JHJ?
		
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He doesn't.  The poster was querying whether steroid use was endemic and expressing concern that Frankel's success might be in some way tainted by this scandal, but there is no connection or any such suspicion whatsoever.

JHJ is Howard Johnson, trainer of Inglis Drever and Tidal Bay before the latter moved to Paul Nicholls.  He was banned for four years for a number of offences, including steroid use, and subsequently announced his retirement.


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## Elf On A Shelf (23 April 2013)

Howard Johnson needs a thread to himself.over the things he's done over the years!

A very good point was made on twitter earlier - the BBC only ever seem to cover the downside of racing these days. Maybe racing UK should do a documentary on the Beebs sex scandals and see how they like it!


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## skint1 (23 April 2013)

mon said:



			Great worry for all involved at their Newmarket premises, they must employ loads and  if they pull out of them what happens?
		
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Yes, I agree. Extremely irresponsible of the people who made the decision to administer steroids, but I guess employees matter as much as the horses do to people like that.  I just don't understand why, or how they he/they felt they wouldn't be caught


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## Doris68 (23 April 2013)

I wonder if the FEI President will now resign following all these "allegations" against her connections...??


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## AdorableAlice (23 April 2013)

I wonder if Channel 4 racing/Morning Line will have anything to say, are the programmes not sponsored by Dubai ?


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## claracanter (23 April 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			I wonder if Channel 4 racing/Morning Line will have anything to say, are the programmes not sponsored by Dubai ?
		
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Good point but they can't NOT mention it, can they???


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## Dobiegirl (23 April 2013)

I hope they throw the book at him.

The Americans always say they dont race over here because the prize money isnt good enough but racing and winning against the finest horses in Europe would surely increase the stud value of their horses. The real reason  I believe is our doping rules, and they know they wouldnt pass muster and the subsequent fall out.

The sooner doping and medicating horses is viewed by the world as abhorrent and taken seriously by all racing authorities the better. Anyone found guilty should be warned off for life IMO.


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## Clodagh (24 April 2013)

skint1 said:



			Yes, I agree. Extremely irresponsible of the people who made the decision to administer steroids, but I guess employees matter as much as the horses do to people like that.  I just don't understand why, or how they he/they felt they wouldn't be caught
		
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I would say that the vast majority of their employess are bought over from Dubai, so the fall out may not effect Newmarket locals quite as badly as if they were locally emplyed. Still sad for all concerned.


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## Pale Rider (24 April 2013)

I don't know why people are suprised, trainers are bent, owners are bent, bookmakers are bent, therefore, racing is bound to be bent.


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## Caledonia (24 April 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			I don't know why people are suprised, trainers are bent, owners are bent, bookmakers are bent, therefore, racing is bound to be bent.
		
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Rocking back and forth nicely in that tunnel, PR?


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## Alec Swan (24 April 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			I wonder if Channel 4 racing/Morning Line will have anything to say, are the programmes not sponsored by Dubai ?
		
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A good point.  I suspect that with the owner of Godolphin distancing himself from the scandal,  will allow TML to take a party line,  without opinion,  except that this is awful,  and that the problems are being "addressed" (what ever that may mean).  

I'll bet that Saturday morning's response will be a vacuous and noncommittal response.  I also strongly suspect that the main influence will be around the question,  "What would happen if the Middle Eastern Money were to leave British racing?".

As another poster has said,  racing is inherently dishonest,  and to expect otherwise will only lead to disillusion.  There are those who live by the rules,  I'll accept,  but most will stand up against the tape.

Alec.


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## Caledonia (24 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			As another poster has said, * racing is inherently dishonest*,  and to expect otherwise will only lead to disillusion.  There are those who live by the rules,  I'll accept,  but most will stand up against the tape.

Alec.
		
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On what basis? It's no more dishonest than any other sport, or equestrian pursuit. You certainly don't get trainers selling doped horses pretending they're sound, or clocking horses, or falsifying passports on a regular basis which happens in several other areas of equestrianism.


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## Pale Rider (24 April 2013)

Caledonia, a more jaundiced view than I of our fellow man?


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## Centauress (24 April 2013)

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/...olphin-banned-substances-found-201550701.html


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## Alec Swan (24 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			As another poster has said, * racing is inherently dishonest*,  and to expect otherwise will only lead to disillusion.  There are those who live by the rules,  I'll accept,  but most will stand up against the tape.

Alec.
		
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Caledonia said:



			On what basis? *It's no more dishonest than any other sport, *or equestrian pursuit. You certainly don't get trainers selling doped horses pretending they're sound, or clocking horses, or falsifying passports on a regular basis which happens in several other areas of equestrianism.
		
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Quite,  and I agree with you,  and I'm not singling out Horse Racing.  I'm suggesting that when we sit in judgement,  as we (some of us!),  are now,  it would be wise to bear in mind that the ethics and moral standing of the Olympian,  disappeared when the professional side of sport,  all sport,  moved to the forefront.

If we can accept that money and greed will always influence our sports,  then we may find an answer to our questions.  When I was younger,  and played cricket,  I was asked to play in several league teams.  I played for one,  for one season,  but the win-at-any-cost approach,  took cricket to a different level,  one which I didn't enjoy.

As I never gamble in racing,  so I am,  like many,  a bystander,  and whether the views of those who don't participate are of any worth,  would be for those who are involved on a daily basis,  to decide,  I suppose.

Alec.


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## Louise12 (24 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			As another poster has said,  racing is inherently dishonest,  and to expect otherwise will only lead to disillusion.  There are those who live by the rules,  I'll accept,  but most will stand up against the tape.

Alec.
		
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Er...no it isn't actually. More accurately, there is a dishonest element in racing, as there are in all walks of life, particularly where money and sport are combined.


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## angrovestud (24 April 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			I don't know why people are suprised, trainers are bent, owners are bent, bookmakers are bent, therefore, racing is bound to be bent.
		
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I take offence at that comment as an owner & breeder that is just not true!I know quiet a few owners that would be shocked at your thinking there are plenty of us that just enjoy our racing!


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## Elf On A Shelf (24 April 2013)

Yes the vast majority of owners go into it for the love of the game  but there are also some to do indeed go into it for other reasons.


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## claracanter (24 April 2013)

Now the trainer has confessed to doping four other horses that weren't subject to the testing.
I'm thinking that Godolphin winter their horses in Dubai so they can get round our doping laws. 
The whole operation now falls under suspicion.


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## Honeylight (24 April 2013)

This could put a whole new slant on the fatal injury of Rewilding, the long priced winners Blue Bunting & Enke, the sudden improvement in the fortunes of the stable after the employment of Zarooni.


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## Centauress (24 April 2013)

What Happened to Rewilding? Think I Missed That
Thanks


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## Dobiegirl (24 April 2013)

Sheik Mohammed has announced his stable is now on lockdown and he wants every horse tested.

I think the trainer will have to fall on his sword.


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## Judgemental (24 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			A good point.  I suspect that with the owner of Godolphin distancing himself from the scandal,  will allow TML to take a party line,  without opinion,  except that this is awful,  and that the problems are being "addressed" (what ever that may mean).  

I'll bet that Saturday morning's response will be a vacuous and noncommittal response.  I also strongly suspect that the main influence will be around the question,  "What would happen if the Middle Eastern Money were to leave British racing?".

As another poster has said,  racing is inherently dishonest,  and to expect otherwise will only lead to disillusion.  There are those who live by the rules,  I'll accept,  but most will stand up against the tape.

Alec.
		
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Alec you are making some very interesting points. Apart from the near term  fallout and inevitable fudging by the racing media. I suspect that there will be some remarkable results in the coming weeks and months because all and sundry will clean up their act. Thus perceived 'Form' will become irrelevant.


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## SusannaF (24 April 2013)

I had this wild-card idea that this was all uncovered because of increased testing of horse meat from UK abattoirs for illegal substances... BUT that's just me getting carried away, I expect.


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## Laafet (24 April 2013)

SusannaF said:



			I had this wild-card idea that this was all uncovered because of increased testing of horse meat from UK abattoirs for illegal substances... BUT that's just me getting carried away, I expect.
		
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Wrong! I am afraid to burst your bubble but the BHA do random tests from time to time, this has nothing to do with the horse meat thing at all!


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## Laafet (24 April 2013)

claracanter said:



			Now the trainer has confessed to doping four other horses that weren't subject to the testing.
I'm thinking that Godolphin winter their horses in Dubai so they can get round our doping laws. 
The whole operation now falls under suspicion.
		
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The horses in question had not been in Dubai for the winter and from what I understand Dubai has the same rules as us (whether they follow them or no).


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## BigBuck's (24 April 2013)

SusannaF said:



			I had this wild-card idea that this was all uncovered because of increased testing of horse meat from UK abattoirs for illegal substances... BUT that's just me getting carried away, I expect.
		
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No, it's nothing to do with that.  Al Zarooni has had two previous, albeit less serious, doping offences in the last twelve months so will be on the BHA's list to test more frequently.

Re the poster who mentioned the long-priced winners etc - every winning horse is dope-tested as a matter of course, plus horses which run particularly disappointingly and the stewards have the discretion to order a sample from any horse declared to run, and as anabolic steroids are banned outright (i.e. no threshold level) the tests are sensitive and can pick up tiny trace amounts so if there had been any drug still active in any of Godolphin's winners' systems, it would have been detected.  I may be wrong but I wonder if it's been part of their pre-UK season Dubai training regime, and the early-season test by the BHA before their horses have really started running in earnest has caught Al Zarooni out.


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## SusannaF (24 April 2013)

Laafet said:



			Wrong! I am afraid to burst your bubble but the BHA do random tests from time to time, this has nothing to do with the horse meat thing at all!
		
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 That's just me entertaining myself with the idea.


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## SusannaF (24 April 2013)

BigBuck's said:



			No, it's nothing to do with that.  Al Zarooni has had two previous, albeit less serious, doping offences in the last twelve months so will be on the BHA's list to test more frequently.
		
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Interesting! And this didn't bother the Makhtoums??


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## Clodagh (24 April 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



			Sheik Mohammed has announced his stable is now on lockdown and he wants every horse tested.

I think the trainer will have to fall on his sword.
		
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It seems unlikely though that Al Zarooni would be merrily doping away without the sheikhs knowlegde. The sheikh is not only a rich and powerful man but also Al Zaroonii's monarch, I can't believe he would have risked peeing him off that much by doping off his own back. And how were the steriods charged on the training bill!?


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## BigBuck's (24 April 2013)

SusannaF said:



			Interesting! And this didn't bother the Makhtoums??
		
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I don't know whether it did or not - I'm not privy to their innermost secrets!

I do know it was a different scenario - it was two horses testing positive within a couple of weeks of each other for traces of the same painkiller, which is not a prohibited substance for use in training, and the disciplinary panel was unable to establish definitively the source of the drug, which means they couldn't rule out accidental administration (being added to the wrong feed buckets for example).  Obviously with hindsight it looks rather dodgy but at the time, with no real previous, it was accepted as the sort of thing that can accidentally go wrong from time to time and Al Zarooni received a total fine of £2,000.


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## justabob (24 April 2013)

Wonder if Magniers have cracked open the champagne.


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## Clodagh (24 April 2013)

justabob said:



			Wonder if Magniers have cracked open the champagne.
		
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LMAO!!


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## Caledonia (24 April 2013)

justabob said:



			Wonder if Magniers have cracked open the champagne.
		
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I think they did that a while ago!!


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## Echo Bravo (24 April 2013)

No surely their CIDER.


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## Echo Bravo (24 April 2013)

Forgot to say keep it in the family


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## BigBuck's (24 April 2013)

Echo Bravo said:



			No surely their CIDER.

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That would be really funny if it weren't that the cider is called Magners...not Magniers.


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## armchair_rider (24 April 2013)

Clodagh said:



			It seems unlikely though that Al Zarooni would be merrily doping away without the sheikhs knowlegde. The sheikh is not only a rich and powerful man but also Al Zaroonii's monarch, I can't believe he would have risked peeing him off that much by doping off his own back. And how were the steriods charged on the training bill!?
		
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I doubt he recieves a training bill as such - Al Zarooni is, I believe, a salaried trainer and thus the employee of the Sheikh.

Perhaps all horses coming into the country for competition purposes should be drug tested? Possibly all horses running in a group one too?


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## Alec Swan (24 April 2013)

armchair_rider said:



			.......

Perhaps all horses coming into the country for competition purposes should be drug tested? Possibly all horses running in a group one too?
		
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Whilst you and I can see the sense of what you suggest,  I'd very much doubt that it would be _tolerated_!  None the less,  it would be an interesting socio-racing experiment.  

I may have missed the point,  which others may have made,  but did he/they honestly think that he/they would actually get away with such blatant disregard for the rules,  or was it just stupidity?  There's either an ethos based on supreme arrogance within the Godolphin camp,  or the collective IQ of three small fish.  

I wish that Saturday morning would hurry up and get here. 

Alec.


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## AdorableAlice (24 April 2013)

I would not be surprised if the Morning Line just give a simple statement out, along the lines of - an investigation is being carried out and no further comment etc etc.


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## Elf On A Shelf (24 April 2013)

armchair_rider said:



			Perhaps all horses coming into the country for competition purposes should be drug tested? Possibly all horses running in a group one too?
		
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All horses entering the country will have had blood tests done for various things but I don't think illeagal sustances would be flagged up on a traveller. Maybe they could also add drugs into the test whilst they are at it.

If you dope/blood tested every horse to run in a Group 1 you would be there all day! I highly doubt that anyone would agree to drawing blood the day before or the day of the race for fear of upsetting the horse. To dope test them after racing on race day would be impossile. Dope testing at the races is done by wee, unless the horse won't go then after 45mins they will draw blood, say you had 15 runners in a Group 1 then you would need to assign 15 vets - one for each horse, plus they have to do it all in the designated vet treatment boxes so the cue would be endless. It would also take too long to go round and draw blood and label each tube from every horse. As nice an idea as it is it's just not feasable.


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## armchair_rider (24 April 2013)

Doesn't sound very feasible. Maybe it could be worked in with routine bloodwork whilst horses are in training although that doesn't sound very practical either


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## pinnygik (24 April 2013)

So glad I popped into the forum. For a while there I thought I was the only one pondering the claims of ignorance (http://www.thestiflejoint.com/1/pos...ainer-claims-ignorance-in-doping-scandal.html) 

Whole thing is very, very strange. Whether it is deception, negligence or plain stupidity Godolphin will need a huge overhaul. It'll impact the breeding shed for a while as well. 

I must admit, I did have a little thought that maybe last year's St Leger would be taken away from them. I am way too desperate to see a Triple Crown winner in my lifetime. I hang my head in shame.


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## Rollin (24 April 2013)

Clodagh said:



			It seems unlikely though that Al Zarooni would be merrily doping away without the sheikhs knowlegde. The sheikh is not only a rich and powerful man but also Al Zaroonii's monarch, I can't believe he would have risked peeing him off that much by doping off his own back. And how were the steriods charged on the training bill!?
		
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I too am curious to know who checks and authorises the vet and drug bills.


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## Pale Rider (25 April 2013)

At the end of the day, it is disappointing that a yard such as this is caught cheating. That unfortunately is what happens throughout the industry. Anyone who thinks that Sheikh Mohammed was not fully aware of everything that was going on will be sadly mistaken. Mahmood Al Zarooni will of course take the rap, but thats what happens.

Unlimited funds to throw at it and they still have to cheat.


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## Honeylight (25 April 2013)

I would have thought at the very least the racing manager would have been party to this, as presumably they will check any itemised bills for medication feed etc. Unless of course the trainer, under increased pressure to succeed, had been obtaining steroids & injecting the horses himself.
As the drug leaves the system after so many weeks, but leaves more muscle, fitness for longer, one has to wonder if the horses that over winter in Dubai have been similarly treated & also how long this has been going on. What ever the outcome of the enquiry there will be a lot of unanswered questions as well as rumours in circulation.
I seem to remember reading a book by a British warned off trainer from the 1970s, who wrote about experimenting with steroids on his horses. I think his name was Payne & he begun life as a stable boy with Atty Persse.
Has any one else read this?


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## Caledonia (25 April 2013)

Very interesting article about what's allowed in the UAE. 

Shakey Mo - hypocrite, much? 

http://www.thenational.ae/sport/hor...from-colic-or-serious-fractures#ixzz2RQI1xjyW


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## Louise12 (25 April 2013)

SusannaF said:



			Interesting! And this didn't bother the Makhtoums??
		
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It didn't bother The Queen with regard to Nicky Henderson


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## Clodagh (25 April 2013)

LOL - true.


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## AdorableAlice (25 April 2013)

ATR just announced 8 year ban for trainer.


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## Elf On A Shelf (25 April 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			ATR just announced 8 year ban for trainer.
		
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Is that all?!?!


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## Caledonia (25 April 2013)

EKW said:



			Is that all?!?!
		
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Exactly my thoughts!!


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## BigBuck's (25 April 2013)

The maximum penalty in this sort of case is ten years, so this was near the top end of the scale.  The fact that he admitted it, assisted the investigators (e.g. by pointing them to the additional four horses that weren't tested) and that it was samples taken in training rather than post-race will have acted as mitigating facts.

In comparison, Howard Johnson was banned for one year for anabolic steroid use in training (he got a four-year ban in total but the other three years were for unrelated welfare offences).


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## justabob (25 April 2013)

Lets look at it this was, he will be lucky to get a job training *Flappers* in Wales after 8 years.


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## justabob (25 April 2013)

way, I meant.


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## AdorableAlice (25 April 2013)

justabob said:



			Lets look at it this was, he will be lucky to get a job training *Flappers* in Wales after 8 years.
		
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I would imagine he will fade into oblivion in the far east.  Who will replace him or will the horses still able to race be shipped out to other trainers ?


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## Elf On A Shelf (25 April 2013)

I suspect that Bin Suroor will get the good ones whilst they look for a new trainer. Did the horses receive track bans?


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## AdorableAlice (25 April 2013)

EKW said:



			I suspect that Bin Suroor will get the good ones whilst they look for a new trainer. Did the horses receive track bans?
		
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Yes, 6 months.


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## Dobiegirl (25 April 2013)

http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd?event_id=1055027


The vets assistant had no idea what he was injecting 

Caledonia that was a very good article. Whats the betting now that the horses go back to Dubai for the 6 months.


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## Elf On A Shelf (25 April 2013)

So the vet blindly injected horses without asking what he is putting into them? Uh huh! Will he be struck off now?!

The owner and racing manager had no idea? Yeah! Sure!


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## justabob (25 April 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd?event_id=1055027


The vets assistant had no idea what he was injecting 

Caledonia that was a very good article. Whats the betting now that the horses go back to Dubai for the 6 months.
		
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Got to be the lamest excuse ever made. They must be all guilty, everyone including Crisford.


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## Alec Swan (25 April 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd?event_id=1055027


The vets assistant had no idea what he was injecting 

Caledonia that was a very good article. Whats the betting now that the horses go back to Dubai for the 6 months.
		
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If the "vet's assistant" is a qualified vet,  then that is no excuse.

What's the betting that with a 6month ban,  which will effectively be 12 months, because the ban will cover this summer,  just about,  that fillies such as Certify go off to stud!

Brace yourself,  SallyF,  I'm going to put a bid in! 

Alec.


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## Natch (25 April 2013)

JackAT said:



			What really gets me is the bit where he says that he was under the impression that it was completely within the rules to pump up horses with steroids whilst they are training, as long as it isn't when they are racing!! 

What kind of trainer doesn't know the rulebook inside out?!?!
		
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EXACTLY.



Alec Swan said:



			I'll bet that Saturday morning's response will be a vacuous and noncommittal response.  I also strongly suspect that the main influence will be around the question,  "What would happen if the Middle Eastern Money were to leave British racing?".
		
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There was good piece in one of the local papers about the possible knock-on effects of an Arab pulling out of Newmarket, I'll try to find it.



EKW said:



			So the vet blindly injected horses without asking what he is putting into them? Uh huh! Will he be struck off now?!
		
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Maybe I'm naieve but i'm not sure the Sheik did know about it.

I do however suspect there will be a case for a vet to be struck off, somewhere down the line. Newmarket's vets should all know the doping rules for racing just as well as the trainers, if not more so, surely.


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## Pale Rider (26 April 2013)

Godolphin trainer Mahmood Al Zarooni has been banned from racing for eight years after doping horses at one of the world's leading racing operations. 

The British Horseracing authority has also banned 15 horses for six months. 

Nice one.

Sheikh Mohammed playing the 'I didn't know card' as expected.


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## Honeylight (26 April 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Godolphin trainer Mahmood Al Zarooni has been banned from racing for eight years after doping horses at one of the world's leading racing operations. 

The British Horseracing authority has also banned 15 horses for six months. 

Nice one.

Sheikh Mohammed playing the 'I didn't know card' as expected. 

Click to expand...

It is interesting to note that many of their horses are over wintered in Dubai where it is permitted to use steroids in the training period. they could all be treated with the drug there quite legally & return to Newmarket once it was undetectable. There is going to be so much speculation about htis & thoughts on their big winners like Dubai Millennium.
The excuses from the team just don't seem to add up.
there will of course be too much fear of unbalancing the industry here by digging deeper. too many people are dependent on Godolphin now; Newmarket is an Arab state just about. They own nearly everything & pump money into the Equine Research Station. There is too much at stake, so they will not have further investigation.


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## AdorableAlice (26 April 2013)

EKW said:



			So the vet blindly injected horses without asking what he is putting into them? Uh huh! Will he be struck off now?!

The owner and racing manager had no idea? Yeah! Sure!
		
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Surely the private vet would be an Arab trained professional and therefore not legislated in the same way that the MRCVS vets  we are all used to ?

I would think the vet and the trainer will be on the next plane out of the UK.


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## pip6 (26 April 2013)

More disrupute from the owner who brought endurance into disrepute a few years ago. There must be tremendous pressure on subordinates to produce results. Like to make the point now there is random drug testing at UK rides, & there aren't failures. Drug abuse is not endemic in uk endurance!


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## Alec Swan (26 April 2013)

Honeylight said:



			It is interesting to note that many of their horses are over wintered in Dubai where it is permitted to use steroids in the training period. ........
		
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Assuming the above statement to be correct,  then with an approach such as this in Dubai,  it's hardly beyond the realms of possibility that the use of banned chemicals has overspilled to here.  

I've just seen this morning's news,  and seen Crisford interviewed.  I realise that it's only speculation,  because the truth is that we simply don't know,  but his whole body language and the deliverance of his thoughts,  were such that I didn't believe a single word of it,  or put another way,  he wasn't that convincing!! 

Alec.


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## KautoStar1 (26 April 2013)

Its a bloody disgrace.  And its all about to be swept under the carpet quicker than you can say anabolic steroids, because the BHA are ***** scared of upsetting the Arabs, in case they take their bat & ball back to Dubai and also because they want to put a lid on the whole sorry affair and carry on with the rest of the season, hoping this nasty little incident will go away and be forgotten.    Al Zarooni has been hung out to dry as the sacrificial lamb (I actually feel quite sorry for him) while the Sheik makes his displeasure (& ignorance of the whole thing) public and Chrisford laments his poor judgement in recommending Al Zarooni in the 1st place.  Watch them all now scrabbling for the moral high ground.


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## Rollin (26 April 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Godolphin trainer Mahmood Al Zarooni has been banned from racing for eight years after doping horses at one of the world's leading racing operations. 

The British Horseracing authority has also banned 15 horses for six months. 

Nice one.

Sheikh Mohammed playing the 'I didn't know card' as expected. 

Click to expand...

My goodness, when in Rome.  CEO's in the UK know full well that in the event of a catastrophe they must fall on their swords!!  The buck stops with the boss.

I am curious to know if Sheikh MO and his Princess will be in the Royal Enclosure at Ascot this year.


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## AdorableAlice (26 April 2013)

Channel 4 just interviewed Simon Crisford at length.  Not too convincing to say the least.


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## claracanter (26 April 2013)

I've never been convinced by Simon Crisford, even when he had nothing to hide!

Surely as racing manager he should go too, although he's saying he hasnt even considered resignation. Now he's off to Dubai to meet the sheik.


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## Dobiegirl (26 April 2013)

So the trainer continued to inject those horses even though he knew the BHA were coming, so the question is why would he do that, he is not an idiot so what was his motives. More questions than answers Im afraid and something stinks.


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## Elf On A Shelf (26 April 2013)

Maybe the Seikh wanted rid of him and this was an elaborate sacking?


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## Caledonia (26 April 2013)

What I found despicable in Crisford's press conference (other than his buck passing and self serving floundering) was the emotional blackmail employed by making thinly veiled threats that if people hassle Shakey Mo any more, he'll flounce and leave UK racing. 

Newmarket should never have been allowed to become another UAE state in all but name.


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## Alec Swan (26 April 2013)

I've just listened to the interview with Paul Bittar from the BHA.  Whatever my previous views about Graham Cunningham,  and whilst I was expecting CH4 to sweep this under the carpet,  GC's questions were searching,  potentially embarrassing,  for Godolphin,  CH4 and the BHA,  and were incisive.  His comments were no less caustic,  they represented fair play and racing,  and I for one,  applaud him.

Crisford's initial description of Zarooni,  was "so middle eastern",  it was _THAT_ dismissive of him!!  "This man al Zorooni",  a man with whom he'd have been on first name terms,  but a week or so ago!!  Crisford's insistence that it was he who appointed al Zarooni,  makes for very little sense,  unless it's just another effort by the Godolphin principal to distance himself from the whole affair.

As the pundits have said,  there is far more to this than we know.  Whether we ever get to the bottom of it,  is anyone's guess!

One small and nagging doubt;  Just why has al Zarooni been SO open with the BHA,  including volunteering the information that there were a further 4 horses which he'd treated?  Most would go for damage limitation,  and that of course,  is what it may well have been! 

Alec.


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## Caledonia (26 April 2013)

I suspect MAZ has forgone a lawyer, and admitted about the other horses under pressure from above. He absolutely is the fall guy. 

I was pretty impressed with GC too. But then I think Bittar was very cool under fire. I think he's good for racing, and I also think they've acted this quickly because they needed to stop MAZ immediately. 

I fully expect that there will be a lot more going on behind the scenes that the BHA can't/won't publicly elaborate on. That may be why Crisford was so uncomfortable and blustering despite having had 3 weeks to prepare for this. Because the buck is still in play, it has to stop somewhere, and Shakey Mo will be doing everything he can to make sure it doesn't reach him. 

Sacrificing Crisford might be the only way to prevent further ramifications, although I believe they need to go right to the top.


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## Clodagh (26 April 2013)

Where would I find the C4 interview? I would like to see it.

The BHA ought to have whizzed over to Bin Suroor's yard PDQ and tested everything there, and I bet if I owned two yards full of racehorses and one was found to be corrupt they would have done too.


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## tiggs (26 April 2013)

Interviews here
http://racing.channel4.com/


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## bonny (26 April 2013)

Does anyone have any idea why the authorities acted so fast in this case, when normally everything seems to take forever with their investigations ?
Something really isn't coming to light about the whole thing......


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## Caledonia (26 April 2013)

What Bittar said was this was the 'End of the Beginning'.

I guess it's the amount of horses testing positive in the yard that made it have to happen fast. Personally I think it's great they're so proactive. 

Interesting article on what they're doing now. They are at least not letting it lie. 

http://www.racinguk.com/news/articl...gin-at-moulton?WT.mc_id=twt&affiliateCode=twt


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## Clodagh (26 April 2013)

tiggs said:



			Interviews here
http://racing.channel4.com/

Click to expand...

Thank you


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## Fools Motto (26 April 2013)

Crossed my mind that Al Zarooni has done what he has done to order.. from whom I'm not sure, and why is the question. Sure money has to be involved,  and almost positive that he knew the outcome before it was, and didn't ''care'' because he himself would continue to have a comfortable life, and leave the mess for everyone else to clean up! 

Just feel sorry for those who have connections with those top horses, and how it will effect all the prices and future in the breeding sheds.


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## Clodagh (26 April 2013)

It would be interesting to see, in 10 or so years time, if Al Zarooni is living in a mansion in UAE somewhere!
I just watched the interviews and thought Paul Bittar came across well. Simon Crisford...well...all I can think is my Grandpa told me never to trust a man whos eyes are too close together. Slimey little weasel!
I do wish though that they would refer to al Zarooni as Mr or Mahmood...everyone else has a form of address or a first name that they use, its is all propoganda  and manipulation.


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## Daffodil (26 April 2013)

Bet Khalid Abdullah's thrilled about his colours being in the background of that interview!

What a little creep Crisford is


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## Honeylight (26 April 2013)

Daffodil said:



			Bet Khalid Abdullah's thrilled about his colours being in the background of that interview!

What a little creep Crisford is 

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What's Crisford's racing background? How did he get the job?
The way they all wear sun glasses always looks suspect to me, you can't see their eyes.


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## Daffodil (26 April 2013)

There's a lengthy biography on the Godolphin website


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## Honeylight (26 April 2013)

Reading his job description on there and it makes you wonder..........


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## claracanter (26 April 2013)

I feel there's a lot more to this than has come out. Will we ever know the full extent of Sheik Mo's involvement or how many horses/how many years it's been going on at Godolphin? Such a shame for racing


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## EstherYoung (26 April 2013)

Statement by HH Sheikh Mohammed Bin Rashid Al Maktoum on the decision by the Federation Equestrian Internationale (FEI) tribunal dated 31 July 2009

Following the communication by HH Sheikh Mohammed to the FEI that a horse belonging to His Highness had tested positive for prohibited substances, His Highness accepts the sanctions of the tribunal and has released the following statement:

&#8220;The fight against doping is a vital one for world sport and one which, as a lifelong horseman, I have supported vigorously for many years. Clearly I am disappointed that a horse which I rode in competition has tested positive for banned substances. I am pleased that the FEI tribunal accepted that both my team and myself acted promptly and responsibly in proactively notifying the FEI of my concerns, following tests conducted at my own stables. 

Let me be absolutely clear: I do not approve of doping. All employees of my stables understand that we must adopt the highest standards of conduct, and that this includes the responsible use of medication consistent with horse welfare. I accept the sanctions of the FEI, and will only redouble my efforts to eliminate doping from equestrian sport.&#8221;
		
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(from his Facebook page...)


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## Alec Swan (26 April 2013)

I've just had a lengthy 'phone conversation with someone who I know very well,  and whilst they are not in the employment of Godolphin,  they are heavily reliant,  as are many others,  on the income that comes in to them,  from the Maktoum family.  They aren't alone.

The principal of Godolphin has, _ at least_ 400 horses in training,  his wife perhaps 200,  his brother and his son and his brother's son,  probably another 1000.  All these horses keep Newmarket alive,  and provide work for a measurable percentage of the town's population.  

Those who are employed directly by trainers and the yards and studs will amount to numbers which we'd have to guess at.  To those,  we can add the farriers,  vets,  saddlery businesses,  feed merchants,  the builders,  plumbers and electricians,  those who maintain the vast properties.  The ancillary numbers,  just in one town,  bear in mind,  will at least equal those in direct employment.

My friend says that there are many in Newmarket who've come to rely upon the living which the Maktoums provide,  and that includes people taking out mortgages,  marrying and starting families,  all reliant upon one family.  She says that there are many who are now very worried,  and with good reason.  She further predicts that should the Middle Eastern money leave Newmarket,  then it'll end up like Lambourn,  barely a village.

Whilst there can be no question of rolling over in the face of mind numbing generosity,  with many,  many supporting acts of kindness,  of a philanthropic nature,  including massive support for the AHT doing equine research,  and all gifted to the town,  we have to bear in mind that if the pressure becomes so great that there's a mass exit,  then in the wake of that,  there will be many who suffer,  badly.

This friend of mine is convinced that the rot within the Godolphin set-up,  isn't just endemic,  it pervades the entire system,  which includes the Endurance Riding set-ups.  I suspect that Racing,  and Newmarket in particular,  have prostituted themselves in the face of such vanity,  wealth and flattery,  and if the area is rocked,  then so be it,  I suppose.  

I'm not convinced of Bittar's statement that the Sheik isn't actually directing the enquiries,  and having just read EstherYoung's offering,  I'm ever more convinced.  

Shaky Mo,  I don't suppose that you'll read this,  but you really have no right to exercise such control over others.  You may rule Dubai,  but you don't rule here,  and despite your claims,  I don't believe you.

Alec.


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## armchair_rider (26 April 2013)

Fools Motto said:



			Crossed my mind that Al Zarooni has done what he has done to order.. from whom I'm not sure, and why is the question. Sure money has to be involved,  and almost positive that he knew the outcome before it was, and didn't ''care'' because he himself would continue to have a comfortable life, and leave the mess for everyone else to clean up!
		
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That was my thinking. I don't see how you can run a doping programme without somebody knowing


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## Dobiegirl (27 April 2013)

Those who work for the Sheikh must be under tremendous pressure to succeed, otherwise they are replaced so it dosnt take an enormous leap of faith to realise  they will use any method possible towards that goal.


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## silu (27 April 2013)

It's a great pity that all countries don't have the same rules re steroid use as I think I'm right in saying that their use isn't banned in Australia. Surely with horses travelling the world to compete there should be an agreed policy by all countries? The likes of Takeover Target came over and won a race at Royal Ascot, the chances of him having been on anabolic steroids be they not administered for a period prior to the race must be pretty close to 100%, fair on horses trained in the UK? Well maybe yes as there has to be doubts now about whether British trainers are using the drugs so as to be able to compete with the Arabs. Who can blame them!? Takeover Target I think did test positive in Hong Kong for something but not sure if it was steroids or not. Similarly what are the chances Black Caviar has been given steroids? The whole flat racing scene is very unwholesome. To me unless the rules of racing are standardised world wide with rigerous testing and MASSIVE penalties for those caught cheating there should be no foreign based horse allowed to race in Britian which have been trained under different rules and that includes horses from the US who are permitted to compete in the US on our equivilent of Bute.
Personally I'd like the Arabs to pack up and GO HOME.Let them compete against each other in the likes of Dubai and do whatever they want with their poor horses. Would be delighted if they'd clear off from both endurance and showjumping too where no doubt other dodgy things have been going on.I'm old enough to remember before 1/2 if not more of each flat race was made up of Arab owned horses, was the racing less exciting then? NO the opposite. Of course those directly involved in flat racing will be assuring everybody that Arab owners know nothing and are innocent/squeaky clean. Who'd be stupid enough to kill the golden geese!?


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## Honeylight (27 April 2013)

I am afraid that Alec is right. Too many people are dependent on the money the Maktoums pump into the sport in this country. They are so big & their tentacles spread across the racing world tightly.
We do not know what has gone on behind closed doors, for all we know they may have told the likes of Paul Bittar that any deeper investigation & they will leave.
I too remember racing prior to their involvement. Horses with English names, runners from lots of different owners in the big races, old fashioned old breeders who we assumed (& probably were sporting), Newmarket looking quaintly English, not like part of Dubai. Sadly we are not going to be able go back to that.

If they do leave many people involved in the sport will lose their livelihoods & their homes. Maktoum must know this, it is his security in all this. No one wants to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. Sad thye took hold of our industry so tightly.


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## Clodagh (27 April 2013)

Fair point about Black Caviar and Aussie horses, she was the most muscle bound mare I ever saw.


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## AdorableAlice (27 April 2013)

Clodagh said:



			Fair point about Black Caviar and Aussie horses, she was the most muscle bound mare I ever saw.
		
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There was talk of the mare coming to Royal Ascot again this year.

She was retired a few days before the Godolphin scandal hit the press.

She certainly was a strange shape.


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## amandap (27 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I've just had a lengthy 'phone conversation with someone who I know very well,  and whilst they are not in the employment of Godolphin,  they are heavily reliant,  as are many others,  on the income that comes in to them,  from the Maktoum family.  They aren't alone.

The principal of Godolphin has, _ at least_ 400 horses in training,  his wife perhaps 200,  his brother and his son and his brother's son,  probably another 1000.  All these horses keep Newmarket alive,  and provide work for a measurable percentage of the town's population.  

Those who are employed directly by trainers and the yards and studs will amount to numbers which we'd have to guess at.  To those,  we can add the farriers,  vets,  saddlery businesses,  feed merchants,  the builders,  plumbers and electricians,  those who maintain the vast properties.  The ancillary numbers,  just in one town,  bear in mind,  will at least equal those in direct employment.

My friend says that there are many in Newmarket who've come to rely upon the living which the Maktoums provide,  and that includes people taking out mortgages,  marrying and starting families,  all reliant upon one family.  She says that there are many who are now very worried,  and with good reason.  She further predicts that should the Middle Eastern money leave Newmarket,  then it'll end up like Lambourn,  barely a village.

Whilst there can be no question of rolling over in the face of mind numbing generosity,  with many,  many supporting acts of kindness,  of a philanthropic nature,  including massive support for the AHT doing equine research,  and all gifted to the town,  we have to bear in mind that if the pressure becomes so great that there's a mass exit,  then in the wake of that,  there will be many who suffer,  badly.

This friend of mine is convinced that the rot within the Godolphin set-up,  isn't just endemic,  it pervades the entire system,  which includes the Endurance Riding set-ups.  I suspect that Racing,  and Newmarket in particular,  have prostituted themselves in the face of such vanity,  wealth and flattery,  and if the area is rocked,  then so be it,  I suppose.  

I'm not convinced of Bittar's statement that the Sheik isn't actually directing the enquiries,  and having just read EstherYoung's offering,  I'm ever more convinced.  

Shaky Mo,  I don't suppose that you'll read this,  but you really have no right to exercise such control over others.  You may rule Dubai,  but you don't rule here,  and despite your claims,  I don't believe you.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Very interesting post. I had no idea of the scale of dependence on Godolphin in that community. An example of the power of money to make and break. Control as well of course. 
To Godolphin this must be a hobby really but to the employees and those dependent on the industry it is their incomes and lives...


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## attheponies (27 April 2013)

Mmm.. I'd have more faith in SM's denials if it wasn't for the endurance scandal. As for racing, well we had a horseracing industry before the Arab involvement and I feel sure it could continue without them. Who knows in a few years all the horses might have Chinese names!


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## Alec Swan (27 April 2013)

As the heading of the attachment below,  these are in published form,  so they're for public discussion.

I didn't do the research,  that was the work of a.n.other,  who PMd this to me.  I'm wondering what the opinions of others are.......

There's actually more,  should you be interested! 

Alec.


[The following are taken from the FEI Tribunal pages http://www.fei.org/legal_activities/...ons#2007_Cases

Printed records only go back to 2006 on the website

2006
Horse Orkara Rider Sheikh Majid bin Mohd al Maktoum ( at the time a minor)
Trainer Ishmail Mohammed 
Drug Gunanbenz action, lower blood pressure and decrease heart rate 
Decision Horse and rider disqualified from the event, and as the rider is a minor the trainer is suspended for one year and fined CHF 5000

Horse Harmatan de Lozere Rider Alice Beet The horse was loaned to Alice, and given to her on the morning of the ride by the trainer
Trainer Ishmail Mohammed 
Drug Dexamethasone action anti-inflammatory corticosteroid
Decision Horse and rider disqualified from the event, and the rider suspended for 3 months the rider is fined CHF 500 and owner 1500

2008

Fenwick Kadenza Sue Sidebottom
Trainer Ali al Muhairi 
Drugs Dexamethasone, phenalbutazone, a non steroidal anti-inflammatory Triantrinalone Acetonide a corticosteroid with anti-inflammatory effects, 3 hydroxymepivacaine local anesthetic
Decision Rider received 5 months suspention and CHF 1000 fine

2009
Horse Castlebar Kadeen Rider Dhahi Abdulla Khamis al Dhahi
Trainer Mubarak Khalifa bin Shafya 
Drugs Flunixin, Ketoprohen, non steroidal anti-inflammatory and Naltrexone an opioid antagonist
Decision The rider recived a 10 month suspension and CHF 3000 fine

Horse Tahhan Rider HH SK Mohammed bin Rashid al Maktoum 
Trainer Abdulla bin Huzaim of Emmar Stables 
Drugs Gunabenz a beta blocker used in humans to manage hypertension and has calming and analgesic effects, Stanolzolol anabolic steroid
Decision The rider received a 6 month suspension and CHF 300 fine The trainer received a 1 year suspension and CHF 4000 fine

Horse Eo Fawati Rider SK Hamden bin Mohd al Maktoum
Trainer Jauma Ponti Dachs Stable Emirates Endurance stables 
Drug Stanolzolol
Decision Rider 10 month suspension and 3000 CHF fine

Horse Danjera Kadir Rider Rashed Mohd al Sayegh
Trainer Ali al Muhairi Stable Seeh a Salam 
Drug Testosterone an anabolic and androgenic hormone as well as a potent anabolic agent
Decision Rider suspended 10 months fine CHF 1500

Horse Omani Iman Rider Dhahi Abdulla Khamis al Dhahi
Trainer Mubarak Khalifa bin Shafya 
Drugs Etorphine a highly potent opioid analgesic with neuroleptanalgesic effect. Hydroxyxylazine has analagesic, sedative, and muscle relaxing effects
Decision Rider 24 month suspention fine CHF 2000

Horse Sudan Rider Ali al Muhairi
Trainer Ali al Muhairi Stable Seeh a Salam 
Drug Etorphine a highly potent opioid analgesic which is stimulant in small doses
Decision Rider suspended for 10 months fined CHF 2000

2010
Horse Kadjari de Serres Rider Mohd Ahmad ali al Subose
Trainer Mubarak Khalifa bin Shafya Stable Al Aasfa Ltd
Drug Stanolzolol anabolic steroid 
Decision Rider suspention 12 months Fine CHF 2000

2011
Horse Betshouf Rider Yahya Sughayer Khanoon al Atjaba
Trainer Mubarak Khalifa bin Shafya 
Drug Stanolzolol anabolic steroid
Decision Rider suspended for 2 years and fined CHF 1500 The horse suspended for 1year

Horse Castlebar Kadeen Rider Ahmad Salam Ali Sulttan al Subose
Trainer Mubarak Khalifa bin Shafya Stable Al Aasfa Ltd
Drug Stanolzolol anabolic steroid
Decision The rider suspension 2 years The trainer 2 years The Vet 2 years The horse 1 year

2012
Horses Triassic, Hellow, Ocean el Dahman, Armins Zulu Riders 4 different riders 
Trainer Ali Salmen al Sabri Emaar Stable
Drug 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone hexonate a synthetic progestin with analbolic effects
Decision Trainer suspended for 16 months and fined CHF 1500 Riders 2 ,1 , 1 ,1 years

Horse Karabil Kaiya Hi Rider Rider Ali al Muhairi
Trainer Ali al Muhairi Stable Seeh a Salam 
Drug Testosterone an anabolic and androgenic hormone as well as a potent anabolic agent
Decision Rider/ Trainer suspended 4 years fine CHF 5000


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## bonny (27 April 2013)

Not sure what your point is here Alec, you need drugs to compete at the top in endurance?


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## Alec Swan (27 April 2013)

bonny said:



			Not sure what your point is here Alec, you need drugs to compete at the top in endurance?
		
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The point is that all of those horses,  riders,  trainers and owners involved with the FEI Tribunals,  were all found wanting for the use of illegal drugs.  It wouldn't take a great deal to consider that if it's illegal in the world of Endurance,  but practised,  then those very same owners and trainers who are also involved in TB racing,  here in the UK,  would be hard pressed to justify a claim that the racing of TBs,  here in the UK,  is drug free.

It's all to do with the level of faith which the average punter (the real backbone behind racing),  holds for those from the Middle East.  It would also raise a question mark over those potentate's claims to innocence.  

"The average punter",  who it would seem has been,  or was about to be duped,  has had very little to say,  so far.  Racing actually exists for gambling,  here in the UK,  and the gambler is the man who funds much of the sport.  Were the UK gamblers,  to form a Union,  then we may see a change.

Alec.


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## bonny (27 April 2013)

Not sure your average gambler really cares one way or another.


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## Alec Swan (27 April 2013)

Your average gambler wants to win on a level playing field,  I'd have thought.  Consider also the other trainers,  those who's horses are robbed of success.  How do they explain to their owners,  that they weren't in fact beaten by a better horse?

Did anyone hear Roger Charlton's well thought out words on CH4,  this afternoon?  He tweeted this;  _"Irish Field report use of anabolic steroids for horses in Ireland is illegal. Penalties range from up to 3 years in prison or 500,000 fine."_ 

Alec.


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## bonny (27 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Your average gambler wants to win on a level playing field,  I'd have thought.  Consider also the other trainers,  those who's horses are robbed of success.  How do they explain to their owners,  that they weren't in fact beaten by a better horse?

Did anyone hear Roger Charlton's well thought out words on CH4,  this afternoon?  He tweeted this;  _"Irish Field report use of anabolic steroids for horses in Ireland is illegal. Penalties range from up to 3 years in prison or 500,000 fine."_ 

Alec.
		
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Perhaps questions need to be asked then as to why the Dubai horses weren't superior to the supposedly non steroid treated horses ?


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## SusannaF (27 April 2013)

bonny said:



			Perhaps questions need to be asked then as to why the Dubai horses weren't superior to the supposedly non steroid treated horses ?
		
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Well, some people have been muttering about long-priced big wins by unlikely Godolphin horses.


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## bonny (27 April 2013)

SusannaF said:



			Well, some people have been muttering about long-priced big wins by unlikely Godolphin horses.
		
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That's inevitable but considering the amount of money spent on Dubai horses, the sheer numbers involved and wintering the best ones in Dubai not to mention the use of steroids they haven't been having alot of success recently.....


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## tiggs (27 April 2013)

A good first step for the Sheikh would be to ban the use of anabolic steroids in Dubai


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## SusannaF (27 April 2013)

bonny said:



			That's inevitable but considering the amount of money spent on Dubai horses, the sheer numbers involved and wintering the best ones in Dubai not to mention the use of steroids they haven't been having alot of success recently.....
		
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No shortcuts to make good horses, it seems!


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## Alec Swan (27 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			.......

Did anyone hear Roger Charlton's well thought out words on CH4,  this afternoon?  He tweeted this;  _"Irish Field report use of anabolic steroids for horses in Ireland is illegal. Penalties range from up to 3 years in prison or 500,000 fine."_ 

Alec.
		
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Something's just occurred to me.  I was under the impression that al Zarooni had breached the BHA Rules.  Apart from failing to keep proper Veterinary Records (an AHO requirement),  has he actually broken the Laws of this Land?  It would seem not.  Is the practice illegal in Ireland,  but not here?  Under veterinary supervision,  Steroids can be administered here,  though not to horses in training,  but if Charlton's right,  then in Ireland it's a criminal offence.  I am confused.

Alec.


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## Pale Rider (27 April 2013)

SusannaF said:



			No shortcuts to make good horses, it seems! 

Click to expand...

True.


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## Meldrew (28 April 2013)

Having been made redundant (by choice of course ) last year from Darley. My heart bleeds. Dig deeper and deeper.
https://www.empowernetwork.com/meldrew/?p=37


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## Judgemental (28 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I've just had a lengthy 'phone conversation with someone who I know very well,  and whilst they are not in the employment of Godolphin,  they are heavily reliant,  as are many others,  on the income that comes in to them,  from the Maktoum family.  They aren't alone.

The principal of Godolphin has, _ at least_ 400 horses in training,  his wife perhaps 200,  his brother and his son and his brother's son,  probably another 1000.  All these horses keep Newmarket alive,  and provide work for a measurable percentage of the town's population.  

Those who are employed directly by trainers and the yards and studs will amount to numbers which we'd have to guess at.  To those,  we can add the farriers,  vets,  saddlery businesses,  feed merchants,  the builders,  plumbers and electricians,  those who maintain the vast properties.  The ancillary numbers,  just in one town,  bear in mind,  will at least equal those in direct employment.

My friend says that there are many in Newmarket who've come to rely upon the living which the Maktoums provide,  and that includes people taking out mortgages,  marrying and starting families,  all reliant upon one family.  She says that there are many who are now very worried,  and with good reason.  She further predicts that should the Middle Eastern money leave Newmarket,  then it'll end up like Lambourn,  barely a village.

Whilst there can be no question of rolling over in the face of mind numbing generosity,  with many,  many supporting acts of kindness,  of a philanthropic nature,  including massive support for the AHT doing equine research,  and all gifted to the town,  we have to bear in mind that if the pressure becomes so great that there's a mass exit,  then in the wake of that,  there will be many who suffer,  badly.

This friend of mine is convinced that the rot within the Godolphin set-up,  isn't just endemic,  it pervades the entire system,  which includes the Endurance Riding set-ups.  I suspect that Racing,  and Newmarket in particular,  have prostituted themselves in the face of such vanity,  wealth and flattery,  and if the area is rocked,  then so be it,  I suppose.  

I'm not convinced of Bittar's statement that the Sheik isn't actually directing the enquiries,  and having just read EstherYoung's offering,  I'm ever more convinced.  

Shaky Mo,  I don't suppose that you'll read this,  but you really have no right to exercise such control over others.  You may rule Dubai,  but you don't rule here,  and despite your claims,  I don't believe you.

Alec.
		
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That Alec is probably the best post I have seen by your good self and you make some excellent points.

I am the first to support anything that helps the Rural Economic Infrastructure and certainly racing is an intagral part especially the large yards.

However and it's a big however, if you are going to take a substantial stake in the Rural Economy of whatever professional activity, sport or enterprise. The rules of this country and it customs are to be respected and never abused, on the premis that 'one is too big to fail'.


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## Alec Swan (28 April 2013)

J_M,

that's very kind of you,  but it doesn't actually offer any resolve.  Of course,  we can't have British Racing held to ransom,  and despite the mind numbing generosity,  we cannot simply stand by and watch,  without pawning our integrity.  I realise that's a bit rich,  considering that we have our own miscreants!

If there's a simple answer,  it's that those powerful and hugely influencing and mostly foreign based owners,  must be made to understand that they are contributing to the demise of the sport and the principles that they profess to support.

The friend who I mentioned has been in the presence of foreign royalty,  and tells me that the level of fawning and boot licking which is on display from just about all of those who come in to contact with them,  has to be seen to be believed.  I'm assured that it's at a level which is embarrassing.  Perhaps they are genuinely unaware of the public mood.

I wonder if anyone's taken the trouble to sit these people down,  and point out that we simply wont tolerate such behaviour.  Perhaps someone should explain that the sport of horse racing walks a fine enough line as it is,  without those who should no better,  failing to lead from the front,  and as bonny has said,  on a couple of occasions,  they've barely profited from their efforts.

Are these wealthy people completely oblivious to public opinion?  As SM has a Facebook page,  presumably he's contactable.  Just in case he's in any doubt,  is anyone feeling brave? 

Alec.


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## amandap (28 April 2013)

I see a parallel with banking. Keep them happy at all costs so they don't leave 'us' despite public opinion. The problem with becoming dependent on one industry/benefactor is that you get into a cycle of dependence, fear and it is open to corruption.


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## Caledonia (28 April 2013)

All about Shakey Mo -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theobserver/2013/apr/28/sheikh-mohammed-horses-doping-scandal-profile

I've heard rumours that the horses might be sent overseas to run, but I don't know what the precedent for that is - I know bans are usually worldwide for jockeys, but no idea about horses.


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## amandap (28 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			All about Shakey Mo -
		
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 lol


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## Meldrew (28 April 2013)

Sorry but my life and income have always led me to rely on nobody. There is me ,myself and I to support. Of course I sympathize with those that took out mortgages on such high incomes. My redundancy and many others let me see how that has effected folk at Darley. Sorry but I feel worse is to come.
https://www.empowernetwork.com/meldrew/?p=37


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## Caledonia (28 April 2013)

I've heard rumours that the horses might be sent overseas to run, but I don't know what the precedent for that is - I know bans are usually worldwide for jockeys, but no idea about horses.
		
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Just had it clarified that bans are worldwide. Rumours must have been precisely that. 

As you were.


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## Meldrew (28 April 2013)

Would think a number will be sent to Dubai, no such controls there are there ? See how many come back. There may be a lot more to answer for ! What I find interesting too is, who told the authorities about Godolphin ? They did not simply stride in of their own accord. Someone high up got them to shift their a*s. Otherwise they would have not listened. Someone racked off !?


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## Honeylight (28 April 2013)

I have noticed how much heavier USA stallions look to those that stand at the UK studs. They are so very heavy topped. Is this the result of steroids? Also there seem to be many more savages, I have seen pictures of top stallions wearing metal muzzles etc. Do they give steroid to increase fertility?

Also I agree about Black Caviar, how foolish we have all been...she is the wrong shape for a mare, even a sprinter, no wonder she went unbeaten & the closest she came to being beaten was when she ran at Royal Ascot, that might have been when her dose was held back?
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10038550&nm=2&time=1365613125
This is a picture of UK sprinting mare Habibti & below of Black Caviar.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10663546&nm=3&time=1340462337
Black Caviar's musle mass is much more clearly defined & she almost looks like a colt.


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## justabob (28 April 2013)

Racing started as the sport of kings, then it became the sport of Arabs. You can take a Sheikh out of the desert, but he will never be a king nor a gentleman, he will always be a peasant.


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## Luci07 (28 April 2013)

justabob said:



			Racing started as the sport of kings, then it became the sport of Arabs. You can take a Sheikh out of the desert, but he will never be a king nor a gentleman, he will always be a peasant.
		
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Idiotic, racist and sweeping statement to make. I don't know the wrongs and rights of this, but I really do not like your commentary. It is incredibly offensive.


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## Meldrew (28 April 2013)

Agree with Luci. No one is a peasant. It is offensive.


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## Meldrew (28 April 2013)

The bottom line is,who knew what and gave what. How long for. These steroids are old and were used by Ben Jhonson years ago. Why so old ?


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## Pale Rider (28 April 2013)

justabob said:



			Racing started as the sport of kings, then it became the sport of Arabs. You can take a Sheikh out of the desert, but he will never be a king nor a gentleman, he will always be a peasant.
		
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This is racist, it's not what we expect on this forum.


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## Dobiegirl (28 April 2013)

CloseCloseSOUTH AFRICA: Filly changes sex to become colt
By international
Tuesday's Child has been reclassified from a filly to a colt. After winning a 5f handicap in December her urine sample showed the presence of testosterone. The same hormone was present when she was tested after finishing fourth the following month.. (4 hours ago)

I realise this is speculation but one has to ask what this horse was reared on, growth hormones, who knows but its certainly food for thought.


I dont remember the poster who mentioned about more savage horses now and was it attributated to steroids, many years ago I had a copy of Stud and Stable and an article about savage horses. It said it was less common now due to better welfare, horses years ago were shut in their boxes with the top door closed and were driven mad by boredom. There had been several instances of horses attacking people in the parade ring and several deaths. Thank goodness we have moved forward these days and horses are out of their boxes for much longer.

Justabob that remark was completely uncalled for.


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## Pale Rider (28 April 2013)

I know one or two people who must be on steroids, they're always pretty angry. They are body builder types which is why they take them. I thought it was a side effect of steroid abuse.


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## Goldenstar (28 April 2013)

Honeylight said:



			I have noticed how much heavier USA stallions look to those that stand at the UK studs. They are so very heavy topped. Is this the result of steroids? Also there seem to be many more savages, I have seen pictures of top stallions wearing metal muzzles etc. Do they give steroid to increase fertility?

Also I agree about Black Caviar, how foolish we have all been...she is the wrong shape for a mare, even a sprinter, no wonder she went unbeaten & the closest she came to being beaten was when she ran at Royal Ascot, that might have been when her dose was held back?
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10038550&nm=2&time=1365613125
This is a picture of UK sprinting mare Habibti & below of Black Caviar.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10663546&nm=3&time=1340462337
Black Caviar's musle mass is much more clearly defined & she almost looks like a colt.
		
Click to expand...

On fertility I don't know about horses but in men steriod use adversely affects fertility .


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## skydy (28 April 2013)

Actually , anabolic steroids decrease fertility when given over time. The body stops producing testosterone because of the steroids, and when they are withdrawn, it often will not resume producing testosterone on it's own. 

The harm to the body's organs caused by steroid use are well known. 
The anger side effect is known as "roid rage".


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## Meldrew (28 April 2013)

Not easy to compare Habibti to Black Caviar. The photos do no justice. Though colts will always look more like colts than filly's for some reason ! No matter what you give them.
Filly's beating colts is another matter. Back to the basics of this discussion. The Arabs appear to of been cheating. They should be sent packing no matter how much money they have. Even though one of them has yet to win the Derby !


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## Alec Swan (28 April 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



			.......

Justabob that remark was completely uncalled for.
		
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It also devalues our case.  We can't sit in judgement,  and use racism as a tool.

Back to the subject of this thread,  there will be no progress until we have global acceptance of an ethos which centres around honesty,  and that I'm sorry to tell you,  just aint going to happen.  The only possible way forward,  in the event that other countries wont join with us,  is to have focused and stringent blood testing,  firstly for all race horses entering the country,  and then pre-raceday. 

Alec.


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## bonny (28 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			It also devalues our case.  We can't sit in judgement,  and use racism as a tool.

Back to the subject of this thread,  there will be no progress until we have global acceptance of an ethos which centres around honesty,  and that I'm sorry to tell you,  just aint going to happen.  The only possible way forward,  in the event that other countries wont join with us,  is to have focused and stringent blood testing,  firstly for all race horses entering the country,  and then pre-raceday. 

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

I think the rest of the world are as honest or dishonest as we are, I suspect steroids are widely used, openly in some countries and secretly in others and to imagine otherwise is just naive.  There can be no other explanation asto why horses from countries which allow drugs are not superior to ours and neither were the Dubai horses. Maybe we should have the same policy as other countries rather than the other way round ?
Also Black Caviar was very special and to suggest it was down to steriod use is insulting, she ran in a country where steroids are allowed so if she had them it wasn't giving her an advantage and one of the reasons she looked the way she did was because she stayed in training for so long which is unusual for any flat horse let alone a mare.


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## Pale Rider (29 April 2013)

Racing really is rediculous. How can you have the use of steroids legal in one country and not in another, then start moving horses round and racing clean ones against dirty ones?

Makes a mockery of eveything allowing drugs, being prepaired to use them tells you a lot about the ethics of those involved, legal or not.


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## SusannaF (29 April 2013)

skydy said:



			Actually , anabolic steroids decrease fertility when given over time. The body stops producing testosterone because of the steroids, and when they are withdrawn, it often will not resume producing testosterone on it's own. 

The harm to the body's organs caused by steroid use are well known. 
The anger side effect is known as "roid rage".
		
Click to expand...

Wasn't it part of the crazy 1980s boom in racehorse prices? That yearlings were pumped with steroids, sold for millions and then discovered (off their regimen of drugs) to be both slow and infertile? 

Wasn't that the secret story behind Snaafi Dancer?


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## Honeylight (29 April 2013)

SusannaF said:



			Wasn't it part of the crazy 1980s boom in racehorse prices? That yearlings were pumped with steroids, sold for millions and then discovered (off their regimen of drugs) to be both slow and infertile? 

Wasn't that the secret story behind Snaafi Dancer?
		
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That's interesting SusannaF, I remember that & how John Dunlop was quoted as saying that the horse became uglier & slower the more he had him. Mind you a lot of Northern Dancer line stallions have had problems with fertility & it was thought to be in the bloodline, but is it........?

I also agree with the poster that there should be a worldwide ban on steroids in training, surely this must be discussed. We can't have Black Caviar's coming to race here & horses going off for "druggy holidays in the sun".


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## Maesfen (29 April 2013)

bonny said:



			Also Black Caviar was very special and to suggest it was down to steriod use is insulting, she ran in a country where steroids are allowed so if she had them it wasn't giving her an advantage *until she races in another country which doesn't allow their use*and one of the reasons she looked the way she did was because she stayed in training for so long which is unusual for any flat horse let alone a mare.
		
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I'm sorry but do give some of us some credit of knowing how fit horses should look no matter how long they're in training and she looked like a Belgian Blue in comparison to others, mares or otherwise.  You have to wonder why she needed that compression suit when normal fitting rugs would have done the same job of keeping her muscles warm.



Honeylight said:



			I also agree with the poster that there should be a worldwide ban on steroids in training, surely this must be discussed. We can't have Black Caviar's coming to race here & horses going off for "druggy holidays in the sun".
		
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Absolutely agree with this.  Does anyone know the withdrawal times from them?


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## Alec Swan (29 April 2013)

Maesfen said:



			.......

Absolutely agree with this.  Does anyone know the withdrawal times from them?
		
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I'm not too sure,  but so I'm assured,  hairs can be removed from the tail of a horse,  and with inch long segments being tested,  its history will be revealed!  That's what I'm told. 

Alec.


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## Dobiegirl (29 April 2013)

http://www.racingpost.com/news/hors...ds/1254708/top/#newsArchiveTabs=last7DaysNews

Just the tip of the iceberg.

Maesfen a good post.


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## Louise12 (29 April 2013)

Meldrew said:



			Not easy to compare Habibti to Black Caviar. The photos do no justice. Though colts will always look more like colts than filly's for some reason ! No matter what you give them.
Filly's beating colts is another matter. Back to the basics of this discussion. The Arabs appear to of been cheating. They should be sent packing no matter how much money they have. Even though one of them has yet to win the Derby !
		
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They have won the Derby


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## Pale Rider (29 April 2013)

Why not have a life ban for the trainer/owner where drugs have been used to enhance performance.


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## SusannaF (29 April 2013)

Is Black Caviar more hugely muscled than Zenyatta? 

Big Brown's the horse I think of when I think of legal steroid use. His trainer was notorious for it, and he was half the horse he'd been when he was taken off them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/sports/08iht-horsebig8.13554203.html?_r=0

Given that he also seemed to have pretty awful feet, it seems like a bad idea to breed from him, let alone endorse linebreeding (as his stud's website suggests)

http://hoofcare.blogspot.de/2008/04/big-brown-most-famous-feet-in-derby.html


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## amandap (29 April 2013)

A very telling quote apparently by Butler from this article. http://www.independent.ie/sport/hor...g-ban-as-steroid-crisis-deepens-29227772.html

_"but the Kildare native says he was so confident in veterinary assurances about the medication in question that he entered its use in his official medical records" _


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## Ancient Hacker (29 April 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



			CloseCloseSOUTH AFRICA: Filly changes sex to become colt
By international
Tuesday's Child has been reclassified from a filly to a colt. After winning a 5f handicap in December her urine sample showed the presence of testosterone. The same hormone was present when she was tested after finishing fourth the following month.. (4 hours ago)

I realise this is speculation but one has to ask what this horse was reared on, growth hormones, who knows but its certainly food for thought.


--------
The latest I can find here, is that is was determined that Tuesday's Child  is an hermaphrodite - reported here:  http://www.sportingpost.co.za/2013/04/26/racing-and-sport/romeo-francis/ 

Or more accurately "a male pseudo hermaphrodite"
I have no idea what that means, though!


Click to expand...


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## SusannaF (30 April 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



			CloseCloseSOUTH AFRICA: Filly changes sex to become colt
By international
Tuesday's Child has been reclassified from a filly to a colt. After winning a 5f handicap in December her urine sample showed the presence of testosterone. The same hormone was present when she was tested after finishing fourth the following month.. (4 hours ago)

I realise this is speculation but one has to ask what this horse was reared on, growth hormones, who knows but its certainly food for thought.
		
Click to expand...

Could also be a hermaphrodite. I met one of these at a nature reserve. A Konik who looked like a filly, peed from below "her" tail and had a small udder etc. When "her" behaviour changed drastically as she grew up and she began fighting the stallion for mares, investigations revealed that "she" was in fact a "he": there was a small, rear-facing willy under the tail, and that udder was a scrotum.

No hormones involved. Horse was born on a "rewilding" reserve. 

I found a reference to a similar case in an 18th century French horse book called Le Nouveau Parfait Maréchal, so it must be a phenomenon that crops up now and then.

(*Ancient Hacker* &#8211; I didn't spot your note because it was below a line and I "read" it as a signature - sorry about that)


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## Clodagh (30 April 2013)

Well someone else has been caught. Gerald Butler? Never heard of him! But my flat knowledge is zilch. I haven't read the article yet as can't get the paper off OH.


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## Clodagh (30 April 2013)

Is a bit different, having scanned the article, it was a prescribed and legal drug, but illegal for racing.


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## Louise12 (30 April 2013)

SusannaF said:



			Could also be a hermaphrodite. I met one of these at a nature reserve. A Konik who looked like a filly, peed from below "her" tail and had a small udder etc. When "her" behaviour changed drastically as she grew up and she began fighting the stallion for mares, investigations revealed that "she" was in fact a "he": there was a small, rear-facing willy under the tail, and that udder was a scrotum.

No hormones involved. Horse was born on a "rewilding" reserve. 

I found a reference to a similar case in an 18th century French horse book called Le Nouveau Parfait Maréchal, so it must be a phenomenon that crops up now and then.

(*Ancient Hacker*  I didn't spot your note because it was below a line and I "read" it as a signature - sorry about that)
		
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Interesting. You learn something every day.


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## Alec Swan (30 April 2013)

amandap said:



			A very telling quote apparently by Butler from this article. http://www.independent.ie/sport/hor...g-ban-as-steroid-crisis-deepens-29227772.html

_"but the Kildare native says he was so confident in veterinary assurances about the medication in question that he entered its use in his official medical records" _

 

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An interesting article.  It wouldn't surprise me to hear that Butler has a yard full,  by next year! 

Alec.


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## Dobiegirl (30 April 2013)

I wonder if we wll have more trainers coming out as Gerad Butler has, because if the BHA tighten up and investigate thoroughly trainers are worried at being found out. Rather than being caught out but coming clean and as in Gerad Butlers case was prescribed by the vet which in itself is very worrying if vets are not familar with banned drugs. 

Perhaps the BHA need to offer an amnesty to find out how deep the problem is.


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## Honeylight (30 April 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



			I wonder if we wll have more trainers coming out as Gerad Butler has, because if the BHA tighten up and investigate thoroughly trainers are worried at being found out. Rather than being caught out but coming clean and as in Gerad Butlers case was prescribed by the vet which in itself is very worrying if vets are not familar with banned drugs. 

Perhaps the BHA need to offer an amnesty to find out how deep the problem is.
		
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Surely "Racing" vets must be aware of the rules. Butler must have used one of the big Newmarket practices who specialise in thoroughbreds not small animals. Even our vet, who specialises in cardiac problems of cats & dogs knew Lasix was banned in the UK for racing, I used to talk to her when our cat went for his health checks.


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## MotherOfChickens (30 April 2013)

wonder which practice it was..


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## Elf On A Shelf (30 April 2013)

You would be surprised at how little vets know, well no, not know but get into  their job and forget about the horses job. A few times I have had to stop our vet from just popping drugs into a horse and reminding them that they are race horses, not your generic horse that you can do whatever with. Sometimes It does slip their mind but we use a rural practice that deals with more normal horses than racehorses. You would expect the vets in HQ to be totally clued up as to what they can and can't give.


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## Dobiegirl (30 April 2013)

Perhaps the fact it was injected into the joint and not the muscle made the vet and trainer think it was permissable. One thing for certain these vets and trainers need to go on a refresher course.


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## amandap (30 April 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



			Perhaps the fact it was injected into the joint and not the muscle made the vet and trainer think it was permissable. One thing for certain these vets and trainers need to go on a refresher course.

Click to expand...

 Definitely! 

I also want to know what doesn't get recorded in the 'official medical records'. Lol


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## Dobiegirl (30 April 2013)

amandap said:



 Definitely! 

I also want to know what doesn't get recorded in the 'official medical records'. Lol
		
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But it was recorded in the med records and sent off to the BHA and returned without comment,( see my  link a couple of pages back) so it begs the question did the BHA miss it or is it permissable for injecting joints and not muscles. I would have hoped  the BHA would have issued a statement making it abundantly clear if they were permissable but a withdrawal time was to be adhered to.


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## amandap (30 April 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



			But it was recorded in the med records and sent off to the BHA and returned without comment,( see my  link a couple of pages back) so it begs the question did the BHA miss it or is it permissable for injecting joints and not muscles. I would have hoped  the BHA would have issued a statement making it abundantly clear if they were permissable but a withdrawal time was to be adhered to.
		
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Yes, I realize that. I was referring to the comment by Butler in the article I linked. He was so confident it was legal he recorded it. The implication is there that if he wasn't confident he might not of recorded it.  I think he worded it very badly myself.
Obviously I am unaware of the medical value of injecting anabolic steroids into joints but cortico steroids are good at reducing inflammation and are what are commonly used in humans with joint issues.


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## Honeylight (30 April 2013)

I had cortizone into a joint last year & very painful it was, it did speed up the healing though.
I too wonder why they used an anabolic steroid & not cortizol for the horses. 

Someone on another forum posted a link to the leaflet that comes with the product Gerard Butler used. It is an American drug & is used in arthritis & I presume other equine conditions like navicular & ringbone.

Has anyone used it on their own horses? I presume it is used by non racing vets to treat conditions. It may of course be an expensive treatment, not widely used or a relatively new one.


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## AdorableAlice (30 April 2013)

Several  pages back the source of the drugs was discussed.  It was suggested the connections brought them into the UK from Dubai.

I suggested that this was unlikely and surely customs would pick the drugs up, how wrong was I - Racing Post comment a couple of hours ago.

The trainer brought them in to the UK in his hand luggage.  Then gave the syringes, via his car window, to his staff with a list of the horses into which the needles were to be poked.  You couldn't make it up.


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## Elf On A Shelf (30 April 2013)

This story just gets wilder and wilder!


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## bonny (30 April 2013)

Damage limitation .....


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## AdorableAlice (30 April 2013)

bonny said:



			Damage limitation .....
		
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Yes, but did you notice the comment about the trainer considering appealing.


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## hackneylass2 (1 May 2013)

'The trainer brought them in to the UK in his hand luggage. Then gave the syringes, via his car window, to his staff with a list of the horses into which the needles were to be poked. You couldn't make it up. '

Crikey, that says a lot for airline security!


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## Daffodil (1 May 2013)

And yet they tied themselves up in knots about my bottle of shampoo.......


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## KautoStar1 (2 May 2013)

equally worrying is the amount of young horses having their joints medicated.


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## SusannaF (2 May 2013)

I just read a book about the science of exercise by this journalist and it said that cortisone injections enable you to exercise sooner after injury, but they actually impede the mending process. ie it's a patch-up, painkilling job. But I don't think medicine realised that until recently. 


http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/27/do-cortisone-shots-actually-make-things-worse/


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## attheponies (2 May 2013)

SusannaF said:



			I just read a book about the science of exercise by this journalist and it said that cortisone injections enable you to exercise sooner after injury, but they actually impede the mending process. ie it's a patch-up, painkilling job. But I don't think medicine realised that until recently. 


http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/27/do-cortisone-shots-actually-make-things-worse/

Click to expand...

That's a really interesting article!


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## Honeylight (2 May 2013)

SusannaF said:



			I just read a book about the science of exercise by this journalist and it said that cortisone injections enable you to exercise sooner after injury, but they actually impede the mending process. ie it's a patch-up, painkilling job. But I don't think medicine realised that until recently. 


http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/27/do-cortisone-shots-actually-make-things-worse/

Click to expand...

I had a cortisone injection for a frozen shoulder & I had never before experienced such sever pain & I have had heart & brain surgery & broken bones. My shoulder is a lot better but it may have improved any way. I would certainly not have another one.


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## Alec Swan (2 May 2013)

Anyone read the Racing Post Headlines?  I squinted at them in the Newsagents,  and Black Caviar's trainer,  a certain Mr. Moody,  states categorically,  that the mare was blood tested on arrival in this country,  and that she was also tested before and after she raced.  All tests were negative.  The mare must have been tested,  and his assertions must I would think,  be valid.

Presumably,  the mare will end up going to stud.  It'll be interesting to see what she produces,  if anything.  

As for Godolphin,  and British Racing,  I'm no longer certain of what I think!

Alec.


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## amandap (2 May 2013)

KautoStar1 said:



			equally worrying is the amount of young horses having their joints medicated.
		
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Yes,I find it very concerning.


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## Alec Swan (2 May 2013)

Honeylight said:



			I had a cortisone injection for a frozen shoulder & I had never before experienced such sever pain & I have had heart & brain surgery & broken bones. My shoulder is a lot better but it may have improved any way. I would certainly not have another one.
		
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I too have had both shoulders,  at separate times,  "Frozen",  the first time it lasted for about 9 months,  because I wouldn't have a needle stuck down into my shoulder joint,  and the second time,  I went to an acupuncturist,  and the immediate relief was astonishing.  The effect was an immediate return to normality.  Very strange,  spooky almost!

Is acupuncture available for horses?

Alec.


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## Allover (2 May 2013)

Yes it is Alec, i have found it to be most beneficial on all the horses that have had it. Some vets sedate for accupuncture but i personally would prefer them not to be.


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## Dobiegirl (2 May 2013)

The BHA drug squad have visited Bin Suroors stables today, He also trains for Godolphin.


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## Alec Swan (2 May 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



			The BHA drug squad have visited Bin Suroors stables today, He also trains for Godolphin.
		
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It'll be a replay of the search for weapons of mass destruction.  You see if I'm not right! 

Alec.


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## SusannaF (3 May 2013)

attheponies said:



			That's a really interesting article!
		
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 The book she wrote is verrrrrrry interesting. I need to exercise without injuring myself, so I thought I'd read up. http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/04/the-surprising-shortcut-to-better-health/


But yup, if lots of young horses are having joint injections with cortisone then it might get them patched up to race but in the longterm it's not very good for them.


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## Elf On A Shelf (3 May 2013)

Im surprised that its taken them this long to test Bin Suroor's yard! I hope it's clear.

My conspiracy theory is that no publicity is bad publicity. Darley haven't had any Blue Ribbon colts for a whiile,they haven't had the success in recent years. Are they getting everyone's eyes back on Darley stallions for the next breeding season at any cost? Drop the stud fees, get everyone watching and then wait. Its just too elaborate a sacking!


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## Pale Rider (3 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I too have had both shoulders,  at separate times,  "Frozen",  the first time it lasted for about 9 months,  because I wouldn't have a needle stuck down into my shoulder joint,  and the second time,  I went to an acupuncturist,  and the immediate relief was astonishing.  The effect was an immediate return to normality.  Very strange,  spooky almost!

Is acupuncture available for horses?

Alec.
		
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I don't see why it shouldn't be. We had acupuncture done on a dog of ours and the cure was spectacular.


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## Pale Rider (3 May 2013)

SusannaF said:



			But yup, if lots of young horses are having joint injections with cortisone then it might get them patched up to race but in the longterm it's not very good for them.
		
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I don't think anyone in racing is interested in the longterm for racehorses.


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## Alec Swan (4 May 2013)

Did anyone see the good Sheik on Ch4 racing this afternoon,  complete with his entourage?  He seemed supremely confident.  That will be either innocence,  or arrogance,  I've yet to decide which!  His son looked a slippery thing though.  He'll learn! 

That horse though,  Dawn Approach,  I wonder how many trainers have also been the breeder and owner.  That shows a supreme and justified confidence,  and were I after a racehorse,  I'd value Bolger's opinion.

Alec.


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## skydy (5 May 2013)

So how did THAT win go over in Britain? (I'm across the pond).


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## Alec Swan (5 May 2013)

skydy said:



			So how did THAT win go over in Britain? (I'm across the pond).
		
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Those who backed the winner,  were tickled pink,  if that's what you meant. 

Alec.


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## bonny (5 May 2013)

The best horse won and won well which is what you want to see in any classic, plus he's unbeaten so who knows how far he can go. The fact that the trainer sold 51% of him before the run is not really important.....


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## Maesfen (5 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Did anyone see the good Sheik on Ch4 racing this afternoon,  complete with his entourage?  He seemed supremely confident.  That will be either innocence,  or arrogance,  I've yet to decide which!  His son looked a slippery thing though.  He'll learn! 

That horse though,  Dawn Approach,  I wonder how many trainers have also been the breeder and owner.  That shows a supreme and justified confidence,  and were I after a racehorse,  I'd value Bolger's opinion.

Alec.
		
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He didn't like Clare's question though did he?  Think he would have had her stoned the way he looked at her.

Cracking horse though, shame it was running for him.


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## teapot (5 May 2013)

skydy said:



			So how did THAT win go over in Britain? (I'm across the pond).
		
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Apparently after accepting the trophy he gave the press/crowd/anyone the two finger salute... 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/horse-racing/22415383


And I was surprised one of his entourage hadn't been told to dispatch Claire Balding after the way he looked at her...


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## skydy (5 May 2013)

teapot said:



			Apparently after accepting the trophy he gave the press/crowd/anyone the two finger salute... 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/horse-racing/22415383


And I was surprised one of his entourage hadn't been told to dispatch Claire Balding after the way he looked at her...
		
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Any question regarding the doping would have been unwelcome. Coming from a woman , it must have been unbearable. In his world, he is not a person who has to answer to anyone, never mind a woman. I'm not surprised that he was seriously displeased. It must be tough to be so far behind the rest of  civilization, where attitudes toward women are so very different.

  The treatment of women as non-entities, by most of the Arab nations, leaves me unable to respect their leaders. I know from experience that not all men from Arabic nations have this attitude, and I think that those who do, and who choose to maintain the view that women are subordinate, should stuff it if they want to play in the sandbox with nations that respect human rights. 

When in Rome, Sheikh...


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## Centauress (5 May 2013)

skydy said:



			Any question regarding the doping would have been unwelcome. Coming from a woman , it must have been unbearable. In his world, he is not a person who has to answer to anyone, never mind a woman. I'm not surprised that he was seriously displeased. It must be tough to be so far behind the rest of  civilization, where attitudes toward women are so very different.

  The treatment of women as non-entities, by most of the Arab nations, leaves me unable to respect their leaders. I know from experience that not all men from Arabic nations have this attitude, and I think that those who do, and who choose to maintain the view that women are subordinate, should stuff it if they want to play in the sandbox with nations that respect human rights. 

When in Rome, Sheikh...
		
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Well Said. 

I was Looking to say the Same Thing but Couldn't Find the Right *Polite* Words to Do so... So Thank You for Doing it for Me....


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## Honeylight (5 May 2013)

skydy said:



			Any question regarding the doping would have been unwelcome. Coming from a woman , it must have been unbearable. In his world, he is not a person who has to answer to anyone, never mind a woman. I'm not surprised that he was seriously displeased. It must be tough to be so far behind the rest of  civilization, where attitudes toward women are so very different.

  The treatment of women as non-entities, by most of the Arab nations, leaves me unable to respect their leaders. I know from experience that not all men from Arabic nations have this attitude, and I think that those who do, and who choose to maintain the view that women are subordinate, should stuff it if they want to play in the sandbox with nations that respect human rights. 

When in Rome, Sheikh...
		
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That is the main reason I don't like him. I think they also have a poor record on human rights. I really don't like the way he has enveloped our (& Europe's) racing scene to such an extent that everyone connected with it is afraid to criticise or challenge him.
Channel 4 are bankrolled by him so it was quite a risk to ask that question, I'm sure that Clare was asked to do it by the producers, but I wonder if it could have repercussions for the programme. No Sheik, no Channel 4 racing.
Has any one else observed that for all his wealth his clothes look like he got them in British Home Stores?


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## Alec Swan (5 May 2013)

Honeylight said:



			........ No Sheik, no Channel 4 racing.
Has any one else observed that for all his wealth his clothes look like he got them in British Home Stores?
		
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Much more of that,  and he'll buy up IPC Media,  and shut this thread down! 

Alec. 

ps.  It wouldn't surprise me if he did!


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## skydy (6 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Much more of that,  and he'll buy up IPC Media,  and shut this thread down! 

Alec. 

ps.  It wouldn't surprise me if he did! 

Click to expand...

If he tries, you'd better scream bloody murder to your politicians.(If that fails you'll have to join us across the pond for free speech).


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## skydy (6 May 2013)

Centauress said:



			Well Said. 

I was Looking to say the Same Thing but Couldn't Find the Right *Polite* Words to Do so... So Thank You for Doing it for Me....
		
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 I am relieved that I managed to express my opinion politely. It was an excruciating endeavor.


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## millieb (6 May 2013)

But will all the stud fees for his amazing stallions such as Authorized, Exceed and Excel and Dubawi ( to name but a few..) be affected? How are we to know they weren't being pumped full of banned substances when they won their races ie The Derby....?


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## skydy (7 May 2013)

Oh boy! Al Zarooni is appealing the length of his ban.  The Sheikh is probably not a happy camper.


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## justabob (7 May 2013)

skydy said:



			Oh boy! Al Zarooni is appealing the length of his ban.  The Sheikh is probably not a happy camper.
		
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The gall of the man, as if he would have a job after this, even if his ban was for 5 minutes!


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## becka1975 (7 May 2013)

Vet are fallible - I try to use the same FEI trained vet if I can but ironically she was away on an FEI anti-doping training course and my horse needed some anti-biotics - diff vet came, I explained he competed under FEI rules, she agreed he required anti-biotics (small skin infection), we talked about oral powdered ones but he wont eat them in his food so I'd have to mix with youhurt and honey to oral syringe them so injectable penicillin was decided upon as far less hastle - anti-biotics are legal for use in sport under FEI rules BUT all injectable ones have a local anesthetic in them so injection site doesn't become sore!

Luckily I went home and went on the FEI clean sport website to double check and as I was I got a call from the practice as it had been realised what she had done - it hadn't been done intentionally but it did mean me having to withdraw from competiting until the traces of the drug were clear of his system which was gutting! An ETUE could have been requested if dope tested but I wasn't willing to take the risk of it being refused!

It is easily done, and routes for some administration of some drugs is OK and other routes aren't! it's a minefield of rules that are constantly changing to try to keep up with progression in medial supplies and devious minds!


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## skydy (11 May 2013)

http://www.horsesportinternational.com/2013/05/the-drug-plot-thickens/

I find this very disturbing, for the sake of all equestrian sport governed by the FEI.


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## Caledonia (11 May 2013)

Surely Princess Haya's presidency is close to being untenable?


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## Centauress (11 May 2013)

The Sheikh KNEW what Was/Is Going on I Don't Believe for a Sceond that He Doesn't....


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## skydy (12 May 2013)

Caledonia said:



			Surely Princess Haya's presidency is close to being untenable?
		
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Unless the rules are changed, I believe this is her last term.

 It will be interesting to see if the FEI changes the rules.


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## skydy (12 May 2013)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=610304&page=2

I do hope that you will shout bloody murder about this. That will be the only hope you have to oppose this sort of behavior. 

If you are willing, then he will have you...


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## Judgemental (12 May 2013)

skydy said:



			The Sheikh is probably not a happy camper.
		
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Did I hear somebody mention Bedouin tents amid the shifting sands of time?


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## tristar (12 May 2013)

i think they should leave horses in peace and buy a flippin bike !

riding instructors are not horse trainers usually, they give riding lessons, i feel the greater part of their education should  be actually participating in training  horses under supervision or assisting, and riding classically trained horses that respond to delicate aids because unless you experience the sensations offered by properly trained horses, and understand how it is arrived at, how can you possibly impart that knowledge to anyone else?


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## tristar (12 May 2013)

i think the new website redirected my last post to the wrong thread, thanks!


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## tristar (12 May 2013)

mind you thinking about it maybe my first sentance could be applied to sheikhs as well as riding instructors.


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## Alec Swan (16 May 2013)

Did anyone see the Claire Balding/Frankie Detorrie interview on CH 4 this evening?

I've seen and heard some crap on the telly,  we all have,  but is there anyone who believes that the interview was anything but a crude and amateurish attempt at puppeteering?  Sheikh Mohammed sponsors CH4 Racing,  and following on from last Saturdays Balding interview,  where his highness seemed less than pleased with both the approach and the questions,  we now have all the endurance rides at Euston cancelled,  and an embarrassing interview where it seems that Al Zarooni was the one to blame.  

The interview had all the sincerity of a party political broadcast.  

Alec.


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## Natch (18 May 2013)

Endurance at Euston has been cancelled?!


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## Alec Swan (18 May 2013)

Natch said:



			Endurance at Euston has been cancelled?! 

Click to expand...

Someone claiming that as the ball was his,  he was going home for his tea. 

CH4 have now been silenced,  it seems.  The out pouring and obsequious and fawning spectacle over Godolphin's winner this afternoon was an exercise in retaining their funding.  Detorri blamed Al Zarooni,  for not just his downfall,  but Godolphin's too! 

Alec.


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## skydy (19 May 2013)

Natch said:



			Endurance at Euston has been cancelled?! 

Click to expand...

See link on post #238 of his thread.


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## Honeylight (19 May 2013)

Yesterday a great bull of a five year old won the Lockinge for Godolphin. No doubts that he will test clear for banned substances, as presumably all the horses in the Suroor yard. How, though can the authorities know this horse hasn't been pre-conditioned on steroids? All it would have taken was to spell him in Dubai, medicate him, give him so many months for it to leave his system before he raced.
Not saying it happened, but there will always be a question mark over these winners now.


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## silu (19 May 2013)

Honeylight said:



			Yesterday a great bull of a five year old won the Lockinge for Godolphin. No doubts that he will test clear for banned substances, as presumably all the horses in the Suroor yard. How, though can the authorities know this horse hasn't been pre-conditioned on steroids? All it would have taken was to spell him in Dubai, medicate him, give him so many months for it to leave his system before he raced.
Not saying it happened, but there will always be a question mark over these winners now.
		
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My thoughts exactly. Certainly the winning horse was massively muscled. It seemd like there was very little applause from the crowd, ok it's flat  racing and the favourite got beat but the silence was deafening!

Personally I hope Dawn Approach doesn't stay The Derby trip otherwise it'll just be the case that you can buy instant success. Unfortunately unless the French have something pretty special I think Dawn Approach will oblige


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## KautoStar1 (20 May 2013)

For me, the use of steroids, especially joint medication in such young horses raises the following questions:

Are we breeding race horses fit for purpose anymore ?
Should they be running at 2 yrs old ?

If the above answers are no and no (& I suspect they are) and nothing is done to make fundamental changes to the current system then maybe we do need to reconsider the medication rules !!!??


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## Honeylight (20 May 2013)

KautoStar1 said:



			For me, the use of steroids, especially joint medication in such young horses raises the following questions:

Are we breeding race horses fit for purpose anymore ?
Should they be running at 2 yrs old ?

If the above answers are no and no (& I suspect they are) and nothing is done to make fundamental changes to the current system then maybe we do need to reconsider the medication rules !!!??
		
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Horses were better thirty years ago. It's partially the fault of "breeding fashions". Certain bloodlines are being used indiscriminately. Have a quick look at the runners for this years Oaks & Derby. They are largely grandaughters & grandsons of Sadlers Wells, some of them are inbred 3x3 to Northern Dancer & his unsound relative Native Dancer. If these horses meet at the stud it will be duplicated further. This is a situation that hasn't been as acute before, yes there were lots of horses by Nearco & Hyperion, but then there was a bigger gene pool to out cross to. Now there is virtually nothing out there. 

I'm not sure medication is the answer, perhaps Coolmore should take some responsibility, but they are interested in money. When the horses stop winning maybe they will see the light.


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## merrymeasure (20 May 2013)

2012 St Leger winner, Encke, trained by Mahmood Al Zarooni, has apparently failed a test for banned substances,among other positive results from the stable, it says on the Racing Post website.Where is this going to end? This scandal just gets worse!


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## Honeylight (20 May 2013)

merrymeasure said:



			2012 St Leger winner, Encke, trained by Mahmood Al Zarooni, has apparently failed a test for banned substances,among other positive results from the stable, it says on the Racing Post website.Where is this going to end? This scandal just gets worse!
		
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Bet Coolmore are furious! I would be if I were them; value taken off Camelot if Enkce had been given steroids prior to Doncaster last year.


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## merrymeasure (20 May 2013)

IF he had been given steroids before Doncaster last year, Coolmore would also have been cheated out of the first Triple Crown Winner since1970, and Nijinsky. Think I'd be pretty upset too!


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## Rollin (20 May 2013)

Just heard on BBC news another 7 horses tested positive for steroids.


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## Elf On A Shelf (20 May 2013)

I think it's safe to say that every single Godolphin raised horse will have had steroids in it's sytem at some stage of it's life. 

The boss bought a 2yo filly out of Darley last year. 17hh at least and built like the proverbial brick outhouse. She had been broken but not galloped due to her size, she was being kept for a 3yo. We got her at 2years 7months and I kid you not - she wouldn't have looked out of place at HOYS in the middleweight hunters! She was produced for the ring but I doubt it was just feed and conditioning work that this mare received. We no longer have the horse. We kicked it out to grow up and age for jumping then the owner left the yard anyway. It would have been interesting to blood test her at the time.


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## Alec Swan (20 May 2013)

Rollin said:



			Just heard on BBC news another 7 horses tested positive for steroids.
		
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I wonder who the scapegoat will be this time.  I'd bet that Sheik Mohammed must be apoplectic! 

Just think,  how dare these people ignore his clear instructions? 

Alec.


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## Caledonia (21 May 2013)

It's interesting that Encke didn't run between 1 Oct 2011 and 6 July 2012. 

He easily won that 1 Oct 2011 2yo start at Newmarket. OK, with hindsight the opposing horses weren't up to much, but you wouldn't know that until the 3yo campaign - plenty lofty reputations tumble in the 3yo year. 

Given that Godolphin had no runners in the 2012 Guineas, you'd really have to wonder why they didn't try Encke? He was by a French Guineas winner in Kingmambo who has sired plenty top milers inc Gunieas winners Russian Rhythm and Henry the Navigatior. 

Why would they not have tried him? He was sound enough and strong enough to have a great 3yo campaign? 

Wonder where he was over the winter? 

It's apparently accepted that once administered, even when the steroids are clear in testing, the resulting muscle mass and ensuing increased ability remains for a further six months. 

Encke's now a 4yo, you would be expecting him to be naturally bigger and stronger without medication this year, wouldn't you?


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## Clodagh (21 May 2013)

I don't see that Coolmore can do anthing as Enke tested clear last year, yeah right! We will never know if Camelot would have won without Enke being drugged but what might have been! We have possibly been robbed of an amazing and probalby never to be repeated feat.
Safe to assume ALL Godolphin horses are drugged, they are a bloody crooked bunch and I hope they do head off to France (Telegraph comment yesterday).


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## Alec Swan (21 May 2013)

Clodagh said:



			.......

Safe to assume ALL Godolphin horses are drugged, they are a bloody crooked bunch and I hope they do head off to France (Telegraph comment yesterday).
		
Click to expand...

Sadly,  I think that British Racing and Endurance too,  would be a better place without Godolphin.  The simple fact is that they're costing us more than they're bringing in.

Alec.


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## Caledonia (21 May 2013)

Well here's a few more curve balls. Brilliant article.

http://www.theirishfield.ie/site/article.php?id=3154&cid=5

Extract that is hugely significant IMO - 




			Improvisation raced and won at Newmarket on April 17th, eight days after the BHA testers had entered Al Zarooni&#8217;s yard. If he had been administered stanozolol prior to April 9th, which he presumably was, yet still tested positive on April 29th, it suggests he was administered it a relatively short time prior to the April 9th tests.

So, why did Al Zarooni race him, presumably in the knowledge that he had stanozolol in his system? Did Al Zarooni have reason to believe, perhaps based on previous experience, that the stanozolol wouldn&#8217;t show up in the routine post-race test?

It should be noted that it is generally a urine sample that is taken for a routine post-race test, whereas it was blood tests that were taken from the horses in Al Zarooni&#8217;s yard on April 9th and April 29th that returned the positive results.

We are unlikely to ever know the answer to the specific case of Improvisation as, embarrassingly for the BHA, *he was not routine tested after his Newmarket victory*

Click to expand...

Well I was under the illusion that every horse was tested after winning. Certainly every winner I've been involved with has been. 

Given the yard testing was on April 9th, why was this horse NOT tested when he ran on the 17th?

I am almost scared to contemplate how insidious the corruption may be in the Godolphin outfit.


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## Elf On A Shelf (21 May 2013)

If the winner was expected to win or was a short priced 2nd fav to a well beaten fav the the beaten horse will be tested not the winner.


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## Honeylight (21 May 2013)

I thought they blood tested at the course as well? I have seen horses cooling with lines in their necks.


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## KautoStar1 (21 May 2013)

Usually Alec I agree with you on almost everything, but in this case I cant say I do (sorry   )

I think they have been good for racing and have ploughed a lot of money into the sport, with sponsorship, funding of vet research, employment, tv & newspaper  bearing in mind Chan 4 racing would be gone without them and they own the RP, which is the only racing daily.  The trouble is, Godolphin has got too big and what started off as a small select band of horses (e.g. the best Sheik M had) to run under the Godolphin banner has just expanded to two stables full of fairly average horses and with Coolmoores dominance, not only on the track but also their roster of stallions (& the Sheiks refusal to use their stallions), theyve lost out and lost their way.  Its too big, the sheik has lost control and taken his eye off the ball.  He was far more successful as an owner when he had his horses with the likes of Sir Henry, Micheal Stoute and so on and his breeding was small and select.  Im not sure his choice of current trainers & racing manager have done him any favours.  And while SBSs stable might have been cleared of drug misuse, the practice of wintering his horses in Dubai, where the use of steroids out of training is acceptable,  he MUST have known what was going on.  I think its a bit late for him to be furious now.   

But I do think racing still needs him but I think he needs to review his overall strategy for breeding and racing and clean up his act both here and in Dubai.  Until Dubai is clean, any horses that race over there and then over here will be subject to much suspicion.

I think this is also a wake up call for the BHA and their testing methods.  

In a way, I think a lot of good will come out of this, but the pain in the meantime could be hard to take.


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## Honeylight (21 May 2013)

KautoStar1 said:



			Usually Alec I agree with you on almost everything, but in this case I cant say I do (sorry   )

I think they have been good for racing and have ploughed a lot of money into the sport, with sponsorship, funding of vet research, employment, tv & newspaper  bearing in mind Chan 4 racing would be gone without them and they own the RP, which is the only racing daily.  The trouble is, Godolphin has got too big and what started off as a small select band of horses (e.g. the best Sheik M had) to run under the Godolphin banner has just expanded to two stables full of fairly average horses and with Coolmoores dominance, not only on the track but also their roster of stallions (& the Sheiks refusal to use their stallions), theyve lost out and lost their way.  Its too big, the sheik has lost control and taken his eye off the ball.  He was far more successful as an owner when he had his horses with the likes of Sir Henry, Micheal Stoute and so on and his breeding was small and select.  Im not sure his choice of current trainers & racing manager have done him any favours.  And while SBSs stable might have been cleared of drug misuse, the practice of wintering his horses in Dubai, where the use of steroids out of training is acceptable,  he MUST have known what was going on.  I think its a bit late for him to be furious now.   

But I do think racing still needs him but I think he needs to review his overall strategy for breeding and racing and clean up his act both here and in Dubai.  Until Dubai is clean, any horses that race over there and then over here will be subject to much suspicion.

I think this is also a wake up call for the BHA and their testing methods.  

In a way, I think a lot of good will come out of this, but the pain in the meantime could be hard to take.
		
Click to expand...

Good post.


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## Caledonia (21 May 2013)

EKW said:



			If the winner was expected to win or was a short priced 2nd fav to a well beaten fav the the beaten horse will be tested not the winner.
		
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Yes, I realise that now. Which is quite worrying really, as it's open to all manner of misuse.


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## skydy (24 May 2013)

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/dubai-leader-outlaws-use-steroids-race-horses 

I wonder if the new law applies to endurance horses?

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/doping-scandal-rocks-middle-east-endurance


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