# Why would you choose to breed from rubbish???



## Elsbells (28 May 2010)

On another thread someone was asking if there was anyone with a mare that they could breed from for free? And on another, someone was talking about breeding from a mare that they hadn't even seen/met/bought yet?

What I would like to know is why anyone would want to breed from a mare they havn't even seen?

Also, (and this will upset I bet, although not intentional)do folk breed from mares that have broken down due to genetic or confirmational defectswhich could and sometimes does, get passed on? 

Surely you should take the best of the best,... confirmationaly correct, mentaly stable, talented and fit, healthy(no predispositions)and I would also like her to have some kind of competition proven record that shows she is of quality, not just that her Grandad raced at Ascot and came third!

OK, that's put the cat amongst the pigeons. Shout at me as loud as you like, at least you'll be being honest.


----------



## Beatrice5 (28 May 2010)

It's very hard to quantify what is rubbish. Some wonderful riding horses come out of unusual combinations of parents. One mans rubbish is another mans treasure. My mare was on the scrap heap and been through the sales several times but she is absolutely perfect for what I want and makes me much happier than my bloody expensive been there done that competition horse that was as quirky as hell and a total git to live with.

As most horses are kept for pleasure then why are you so concerned with competition sucess. I like so many have my horses for pleasure and hacking and riding club low level stuff so do not need a hickstead winner. What I value is a kind temperament and sound conformation but nothing flashy or hugely scopey as I don't require that.

No I don't think you should breed from something with a known genetic defect but then unless you mri scan everything how do you know what is going on inside their bodies. Some Cancers are being proven to be hereditary in all species and as most show later on in life you could use a stallion that then went onto develop Cancer.

Like everything it's a gamble. And yes there are some numb skulls who breed indescriminately but there are also a lot of kind, caring knowledgeable people who breed good honest happy hacks as well as go getting competition horses.


----------



## Holly831 (28 May 2010)

...I call my mare (Ellie) elsbells......

Anyway, its a matter of opinion as to what people think makes a good brood mare.

We can't all have superstars and there will always be room for the mare with good confo but no real competition record or where would all your everyday riding club types come from?

Breeding with genetic faults is a different matter, sadly one of my brood mares developed mild sweetitch last year but I have still put her back in foal, I have retained her 2 previous fillies (aged 2 and 3) and they show no signs, speaking to my stud vet he confirmed there is no proof it is heradatory and she produces such cracking foals. I would not have bought a mare with sweetitch to breed from but last year was the first time in 6 years she had even shown any signs - other than she hates flys.

As for breeding from a mare you have never seen/met, for me thats a no as the temprement of the mare (to me) is as important as good conformation.

My foundation mare I bought for all the wrong reasons - ie at a horse sale, they had 'weaned' her 4.5 month old filly at the sales and I felt sorry for her. She was a well bred sec D that had only ever been a brood mare and it actually turned out well, I was more than happy with the foals she gave me.

My other 2 are ex competition mares (SJ + Dressage), one of which (Dressage) had a serious tendon injury, she was going to be PTS because her then owner didn't want to pay for the 6 - 12 months rest she needed. I spoke to the vet and he confirmed it wasn't anything to do with the mares conformation and he was 90% sure she would recover with the correct treatment. I really liked the mare and although she has 'no breeding' decided to take the gamble. She had 18 months off and then I had her covered. She is 100% sound and now age 12 ( I have had her nearly 6 years) and I have retained both her fillies, she is due to faol anytime by Millenium, she is the mare with sweetitch.

The other SJ mare I bought as the girl who owned her couldn't handle her. She has good lines and is a real sweetie on the ground. She can be a little hot headed to ride but with a confident rider she is fab. Her foals to date have inherited her beautiful temprement on the ground.

Sorry for the rant... I breed from my girls because they are lovely 'people' and have good conformation not because of their lines. Had their first foals been not what I expected then I would not have bred from them again.

I do not expect to breed a superstar (although one of my - now 2 year old -geldings has gone to a well known eventer ) I just want to breed sound, well mannered, trainable youngsters to go on and do a job.


----------



## ischa (28 May 2010)

i have to agree with holly on this about sweetitch , i had a colt out of a mare who has sweetitch and he is now 2, he has shown no signs of sweetitch, also the mares mother ,father or brother or sisters havent got sweetitch   , his mum was past from pillar to post , and never had a compertion record ,  
i do agree with you regards to breeding from bad confo etc tho  
this is my youngster


----------



## AJBliss (28 May 2010)

I once was firmly in the "I would never buy sight unseen" camp.  Earlier this month, my friends and I pooled together to buy a lovely slightly older mare with an excellent competition record, good breeding, and progeny on the ground.  We couldn't be happier with her, she is incredibly easy to do, and we are now discussing which stallion to use on her to produce a top class eventing foal.  

My own mare is unproven in competition, but did very well in the BEF Futurity scheme in 2008 as a three-year old.  She is rising five now, was backed before being put in foal, and will be re-backed this winter when the foal is weaned, and competed if I feel up to it.  So ... she is unproven (but well-bred), has no competition record to speak of, also has mild sweet itch which has been easily controlled this year at a new, drier and more exposed yard.  She might not pass your muster for a broodmare, but she suits my purposes well and I thought she was an excellent match for the stallion I used.  I can do anything with her, and am hoping this will make her easy to deal with as a maiden when she foals (soon!).  The foal is to be a keeper for me, and once I see it I will decide whether to re-breed her in the future.

No mare is without faults, but there are some faults I won't accept.  If you hold out for a mare which scores all 10's at its grading, you will be waiting a very, very long time.  It is important to recognize the faults which exist, and select a stallion which best complements the mare, which I think most breeders would agree with!  Elsbells, you are probably preaching to the choir on this board--most here are conscientious breeders who think carefully about the pairings they make.


----------



## luckilotti (28 May 2010)

When i previously advertised that i wanted a broodmare, i was offered what i would class as total 'rubbish'.  Many unpapered...ok...but they hadnt done anything - no competition records etc, just been 'mares.'   I was also offer an awful lot who had injuries/health problems, mostly down to conformational faults.  

The rescue mare i bought last year, to glance at her, i wouldnt have said....fab broodmare potentional, but you know what, shes produced a lovely colt and is being a fab mum.  (she was bought already infoal, as a bit of a pity case).
I also purchased a foal a few years ago, who sadly didnt make the required height, but i had seen potential in her, and if she was a little taller...... i have bred 1 foal from her, who is better than i expected (although turning a bit chunkier than i had hoped, but i guess that comes from the grand sire).  I am hoping that when i can find a rider (who isnt a wimp!) for my mare she will prove herself in competition, and hopefully become graded with SPSS.

My KWPN broodmare, well, she was a rush buy i had to admit!  I was heavily pregnant with twins, and my beautiful ISH mare (who was due to be my foundation mare) severed her tendons and had to be PTS, she would have been infoal when she died if i had made my mind up with stallions the season before, i am glad in many ways i didnt choose or i would have lost two.  In a hormornal mess, i went on the internet once hubby returned to work to look for my ISHs siblings, hoping to buy another, well, they were all either POA, or above £16,000.  Wayyyy over my budget, so i put up a wanted advert..... this is when i got offered some that were far from suitable.  I was tempted by a few as their owners told a good sob sorry and i have 'mug' on my forehead...  but then i had an email from a stud whos owners were emigrating.  i went over to view her (driving across to the other side of the country, weeks before you give birth to twins - i shouldnt have done it!) but anyway, i came home to think about her, then decided to go ahead and buy her.  She is a proven broodmare, i had seen photos of her 1st foal with the stud, and saw in the flesh her second.  The sellers were very honest and lovely, they drove to collect the money from me - so they came from one side of the country to the other just so that i didnt have to do the drive again and they could see how she had settled (yep, she was delivered before i had paid for her).  OK, so, i bought her in 2008 and still havent got a foal from her but shes fab     Her temperament is second to none. 

If i owned a mare, a much loved mare, who had ok confomation, and a fab personality, and i wanted to breed for myself, i would do.  But selling as a potentional broodmare.....???

I think some people just see breeding as a second use to riding if you have a mare that you can no longer ride.  There does need to be a supply of general everyday riding horses, but these should be bred from sound horses who have decent conformation, otherwise the cycle continues.

Not sure if half of what i have typed makes sense as my sons are climbing on me!


----------



## 9tails (28 May 2010)

You snob!  If what you class as "rubbish" hadn't been bred, most horse owners would never have been able to afford their own horse!


----------



## Enfys (28 May 2010)

Just thinking, half the people on this planet wouldn't be here if their parents pedigrees etc had to be approved before breeding!


----------



## Serenity087 (28 May 2010)

I've bred from mine, and she's what you'd call rubbish!

She's never got anywhere in life, my own fault more than anything else.  She's not 100% conformationally perfect (but find me something that is!), she is unknown breeding and she suffered from polycystic ovaries - which she may pass to her daughter.

But she has her fans up and down the country.  Very few people who've met her don't fall in love with her.  She's a perfect 'normal' horse, absolute lady, and aside from the ovaries is pretty good healthwise.

So what if I can't brag about her achievements and her papers?  River has the pedigree and I don't think it's going to make her much of a different horse who her mum is.  She is already earmarked as a competition horse by an eventer, so it's not like she's going to be a pet.

Perhaps if we took a step back and encouraged more "quality rubbish" breeding, animals who aren't posh, snobby creatures with blue blood and a proven record, then the bottom of the market horses wouldn't be quite as rubbish as they are!

And, other side of the coin, I know two blue blooded fillies who should, by all accounts, be really nice.  But because their owner is a certified moron, they're ruined before they've even been backed.  So quality of mare actually means jack at the end of the day.


----------



## millitiger (28 May 2010)

enfys said:



			Just thinking, half the people on this planet wouldn't be here if their parents pedigrees etc had to be approved before breeding!
		
Click to expand...

i know and it may be a better world if that was the case! 

in all seriousness, i look for a variety of things in a mare;

1.good pedigree
2.good conformation
3.solid affiliated comp record
4.trainable temperament

imo, every mare that is bred from should tick a minimum of 3/4 of those requirements.

it doesn't matter if you are looking to breed a happy hack or an Olympic prospect- if you can tick 3 of those boxes you are on the right tracks.

people should also judge their mares the same way they would a stallion- i.e. if your mare was a stallion would you be happy to stand it at stud?


----------



## Tinkerbee (28 May 2010)

9tails said:



			You snob!  If what you class as "rubbish" hadn't been bred, most horse owners would never have been able to afford their own horse!
		
Click to expand...

Um not quite. Surely its better to not breed than pop out some ugly, unsound, sickly horse that won't stand up to life as a ridden horse?


----------



## 9tails (28 May 2010)

Tinkerbee said:



			Um not quite. Surely its better to not breed than pop out some ugly, unsound, sickly horse that won't stand up to life as a ridden horse?
		
Click to expand...

Mine isn't ugly or unsound.  She has no pedigree, or at least her pedigree is unknown, but I wouldn't hesitate to breed from her if I were that way inclined.  If you want to see photos of my "rubbish" PM and I'll send them straight over.  Not all rubbish is a 3 legged fugly.


----------



## Enfys (28 May 2010)

Beatrice5 said:



			It's very hard to quantify what is rubbish. Some wonderful riding horses come out of unusual combinations of parents. One mans rubbish is another mans treasure.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely.

I have arabs and quarter horses. I am not a huge fan of big, tall horses, I wouldn't ride, handle or breed them by choice.

Why? Because I am a short arse and have no desire to struggle with something whose back is a foot higher than me. 
No other reason at all, it is all down to personal preference.


----------



## varkie (28 May 2010)

I think all mares / stallions bred from should have good conformation & good temperament - those two things should be definites.  They should have no genetic defects, no physical problems which can be traced to their physicality - i.e. I have no issue with something being bred from which has had an injury, but if it has broken down, careful consideration should be given to the cause to make sure it isn't inheiritable.  

I'm afraid I do think sweet itch is inheiritable - not all horses will pass it on or inheirit it, but I have seen it crop up enough in genetic lines to be fairly sure it is genetic.  There are some sweet itches will be the exception, but I think this is probably the general case.

Bloodlines or a competition record make a nice bonus, but aren't utterly essential.  

It is true that there is no such thing as a perfect horse, but if you breed only from horses which have only one or two very minor conformational issues, you are going to be a lot closer to breeding something which is able to stay fit & healthy it's whole life.  Thought should also be given to making sure that those minimal conformational issues are matched carefully against the other animal in the mating, so that if a mare has a slightly short neck for example, the stallion must have a lovely length of rein.

A distinction should also be made I think by what people are meaning as 'rubbish'.  Some people here are using the word to describe animals with poor conformation, poor temperament, broken down, etc - whereas others are using it to describe what I would call 'ordinary' mares.  There is nothing wrong with breeding from 'ordinary' mares, as long as they meet the criteria I mentioned earlier, in my opinion, but there is everything wrong with breeding from 'rubbish' horses.  There is nothing wrong with owning a fugly - there are some absolutely wonderful fugly horses in the world, who make wonderful friends, and even sometimes competition horses.  But I do think it is wrong to deliberately breed from a fugly.

People should also consider the marketability of their foal that they breed.  Even if you breed for yourself, what happens one day when your life changes - family fall ill, you go bankrupt, you lose your job, etc.  These things do happen.  And if they do, you may well have to part with your horse that you lovingly bred for yourself.  It will be much easier on everyone if your horse is something that other people will want, with a good future in something.


----------



## posie_honey (28 May 2010)

i'm taking 'rubbish' to mean any horse with notable conformation faults - esp any which would lead to a predisposition to injury - and yup = these should not be bred from - end of. 

too many mares are bred simply because they have a womb... thank god most 'rubbish' colts get cut or there would be even more indescriminate breeding - drives me mad!!!

there are 100's of well bred horses and ponies out there who go for pittance because of a total over supply - you do no need to breed **** just to create cheap horses for the masses who just want them as a leisure horse/pony - that how so many end up on the continent in salami


----------



## not_with_it (28 May 2010)

enfys said:



			Just thinking, half the people on this planet wouldn't be here if their parents pedigrees etc had to be approved before breeding!
		
Click to expand...

That wouldnt actually be a bad thing

I bred from my mare even though she has no papers. A lot of people probably wouldnt of done but she has no major conformation issues and is a complete puppy on the ground. 

She can be spooky when ridden and is a bit of a hot head but is never nasty, she wouldn't dream of biting or kicking. She has a good competition record but hasnt been ridden for nearly 2 years as she damaged her back in the field. 
I chose a stallion that suited her and it really has paid off. 

Most people have average horses who are safe and not world beaters. Someone has to breed them otherwise most people would have no choice but to over horse themselves. But even still I think that mares and stallions should be chosen carefully and horses with major conformation issues should not be bred from. Horses are expensive and I just dont see the point in increasing the chances of something going wrong just because someone wants to breed from their beloved mare. 
I personally wouldnt breed from a mare who was unsound or injured unless it was caused by an accident.


----------



## milo'n'molly (28 May 2010)

I have been thinking about this a lot lately, have been looking at buying a mare I have liked for a while but I want one to breed from in the future. Have been trying to decide what would be the point where she would be suitable and what is not worthwhile.

Quality of mare for breeding thread.

But I am aware that even the best mare/stallions are not going to produce world beaters every time so should it not be the ones which dont make the grade that go on to be good horses for normal people?


----------



## lillith (28 May 2010)

Define rubbish? 

Ok this is rubbish to me;
Any conformation faults that will likely lead to unsoundness.
Any hereditary degenerative conditions (yes navicular counts)
Poor temperament
Not proven in chosen dicipline (if you want a hack then fine, but make it a damn good trail horse)

Pedigree is more important to me if the mare us young/unproven, then a VERY good pedigree could make up for it but I would rather see proven mares bred.

If your mare is a champion hack and all rounder, has a good temperement and has no defects likely to lead to unsoundness or hereditary conditions then carry on and breed but unless you can guaruntee a home for life (bearing in mind the future is unknown) the please make sure the result is marketable.

And from what i have seen though lower priced (to a degree) it seems it is much easier to sell a damn good, well built, sound and sweet hack than a serious competition horse, you have a larger potential audience.


----------



## Serenity087 (28 May 2010)

Not proven in chosen dicipline (if you want a hack then fine, but make it a damn good trail horse)

Still disagree with ya.  Dorey is a fine horse, she's a jack of all trades.  When you plonk a half decent rider on her back, she throws out fabulous dressage tests and can jump like a stag.
However, I was a 17 yo girl bringing on a green horse.  She was never going to be perfect.

Why can't I breed something that I admit I held back?  She could have been succesful were it not for me (in fact, the one time I didn't ride her in a show she ended up in horse and hound!).

Not buying it.  Some of the better bred horses are the ones out the back paddocks.  Some of the showing animals/performance animals I have seen shouldn't be bred from, as winning isn't about the horses breeding in these cases, it's about who the rider knows and how good the rider is.


----------



## Eothain (28 May 2010)

Earlier this year I was going to buy a mare 'sight unseen'. Then I realised, I'm actually broke! That put an end to that plan!!! I think she's still for sale so maybe later in the year I'll invest. To her credit she's Touchdown/Master Imp and would be bought to compete next year as a 4 year old. If she doesn't prove herself in the ring then she'll be moved along on her merry way!!!
I was also thinking about an Errigal Flight/Clover Brigade colt that is for sale. Last year Errigal Flight's owner bought a full brother to him to hopefully stand in the future. Again lack of funds earlier in the year stopped me going any further. Now if I could get money together later in the year and the Clover Brigade mare produced an Errigal Flight filly then I would find the money and be down there quicker than a hot snot to buy!!!

As for breeding from rubbish, well all I'm going to say is that the E.U should look in to putting a scheme together where they send a big team of vets in different countries with police escorts around to different yards and on to people's private property and splay every fugly mare they come across. Fugly stallions should also get the snip. People might not like it, but they'd just have to get over it


----------



## Blacklist (28 May 2010)

Just a thought we had a very rough Shire Mare who came to one of our stallions, she was ugly, bad tempered with bad conformation. But she bred 3 top class middleweight show hunters all county show winners.


----------



## magic104 (28 May 2010)

I have to laugh when these sorts of posts go on.  It costs a fortune to compete a horse & just because a mare does not have a competiton record means nothing.  Our mare can jump round the novice course at MKEC no problem she jumps a decent height at home.  Due to work commitments & finances she has just not gone to many competitions.  Her rising 3 son has no problems with loosing jumping 3ft+ & has a lovely balanced canter & good hock action.  She has no breeding record so I was well aware I was taking a huge gamble from breeding from her.  

I am beginning to think the horse world is full of snobs.  Yes you want to breed something sound & a temperment that can be worked with.  Breeding from the best will narrow your odds, but the racing industry have been doing that for years & look at how many failures they have.  It has been said a 1000 times, breeding is just part of it, if you then cant produce them under saddle through lack of ability, etc, then what will it matter if its sire was Totilas & dam Blue Hors Matinee.

There are enough experts trying to breed the next Olympic horse, leave the people who want to breed sane affordable horses alone.  That does not mean I condone breeding from any broken down mare, failed stallion, or whatever is to hand.  Hopefully people realise a bad horse costs the same to keep as a good one, and that in itself will slow down badly bred horses, no market, no outlet except the meat man.


----------



## Blacklist (28 May 2010)

Magic104 well writ! Brava


----------



## Elsbells (28 May 2010)

Great to read all the posts and it's good to talk. I have more of an idea how things in the breeding world are done and there seems to be a large spectrum of opinion here too, which is good.

The reason I started the thread is because that I look at friends and people I know who have horses that they love, but they also have horses who have inherited issues. This fact, causes them a lot of heartache and costs them a lot in time and money too. Often, they are quite simply a poorly bred hack.

Then again there are the little unwanted foals and yearlings at the markets standing in muck, covered in sores and sarcoids, whose lives are in the balance as to their future? Surely there is a responsibility to the horse here, or am I just being a snob do you think?


----------



## stolensilver (28 May 2010)

I'll throw my 2p worth in here. 

  My pet gripe is when people breed from mares who have sustained suspensory ligament damage or tendon damage while in light or medium work. I can cope with breeding from a mare who does a tendon while hunting in bottomless ground or going round an advanced eventing track or jumping in a 1m50 showjumping competition or doing GP dressage. But one who goes lame while doing novice tracks or out hacking has IMHO an inherent weakness in her soft tissues and does not have the genetics that should be passed on to the next generation. I don't care how good her conformation is. If she's broken down while doing little work she isn't fit to have foals. Conformation only looks at the angles between the bones. Most horses go lame from soft tissue damage that you can't see or test for. The only way to know if a horse has strong soft tissues or not is whether they stand up to the job they are asked to do. The same is true for stallions and you'd be amazed how many stallions have had time off through injury or been retired because they've damaged a tendon or ligament. I think this is why we have so many horses (especially warmbloods) right now who are breaking down as 6, 7 or 8 year olds. 

Then there is temperament. If the mare is unwilling to work and dangerous to ride then she is not the sort of horse that should bring another generation into the world. Temperament can be inherited. If the mother isn't a nice horse then why risk reproducing that? There are enough sound, sane, kind mares in the world who should be mums to allow us to avoid putting the lame, difficult ones in foal.


----------



## lindsayH (28 May 2010)

Great thread with many sensible, well written replies that I have enjoyed reading. Good to see everyone putting temperament at the top of the list as I always feel a horse that is pleasant to be around has a much happier future ahead of it, regardless of other factors.


----------



## Irishlife (29 May 2010)

I think a lot of people do not know what good conformation is and why it is so important in relation to unsoundness and the ability to stand up to work.

I am still perplexed at the number of people that cannot distinguish basic faults. Not every fault is a showstopper admittedly but in all cases of both stallion and mare, their good points must outweigh the bad.

Firstly the overall picture of the horse must please the eye then start at the hooves and work upwards. Particular conformation faults predispose a horse to particular types of unsoundness. Careful breeding and matching of the stallion can overcome some of these issues. For example you would not breed a mare with less than perfect forelimb conformation to a stallion also with less than perfect forelimb conformation. It is about getting the balance right. Much indiscriminate breeding comes about because a lot of people are content to make a few pounds off foals at a horse sale because they have a colt that runs with mares at home. Equally, people who are breeding from so-called "rubbish" don't believe they are rubbish so don't have an issue or awareness that perhaps it may not be a good idea to breed a particular mare because they don't understand the relationship between conformation and soundness.

If you think you have a nice horse that pleases you and you want a foal then clearly you will breed one. Talented horses come in all shapes and sizes especially show jumpers.

There is a role for most horses, especially in the UK where there are so many leisure horses and ponies - God Bless the riding school "cut and shut" ponies we learned to ride on, all shapes and sizes but sound in mind and temperament.

This is a long winded way of saying that lack of knowledge has more to do with bad breeding than deliberately breeding rubbish.


----------



## Truly (29 May 2010)

Irishlife said:



			I think a lot of people do not know what good conformation is and why it is so important in relation to unsoundness and the ability to stand up to work.

I am still perplexed at the number of people that cannot distinguish basic faults. Not every fault is a showstopper admittedly but in all cases of both stallion and mare, their good points must outweigh the bad.

Firstly the overall picture of the horse must please the eye then start at the hooves and work upwards. Particular conformation faults predispose a horse to particular types of unsoundness. Careful breeding and matching of the stallion can overcome some of these issues. For example you would not breed a mare with less than perfect forelimb conformation to a stallion also with less than perfect forelimb conformation. It is about getting the balance right. Much indiscriminate breeding comes about because a lot of people are content to make a few pounds off foals at a horse sale because they have a colt that runs with mares at home. Equally, people who are breeding from so-called "rubbish" don't believe they are rubbish so don't have an issue or awareness that perhaps it may not be a good idea to breed a particular mare because they don't understand the relationship between conformation and soundness.

If you think you have a nice horse that pleases you and you want a foal then clearly you will breed one. Talented horses come in all shapes and sizes especially show jumpers.

There is a role for most horses, especially in the UK where there are so many leisure horses and ponies - God Bless the riding school "cut and shut" ponies we learned to ride on, all shapes and sizes but sound in mind and temperament.

This is a long winded way of saying that lack of knowledge has more to do with bad breeding than deliberately breeding rubbish.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly what I wanted to say but couldn't find the words lol

To put the cat amongst the pidgeons again ...how many people have actually seen the stallion they have chosen for their mare?..close up and not just at a stallion parade.
I personally have only 'once' not actually seen and assessed  the stallion when choosing for my mares.
Even if it's been graded I still don't trust someone elses opinion and have to see for myself.


----------



## Irishlife (29 May 2010)

I have always been of the opinion that selecting a stallion is like buying a horse and have never relied solely on videos and photographs. Unless I can see him at home and up close and personal then I would not be comfortable just using AI sight unseen.  Too many times stallions prove to be very different in the flesh to their marketing material; lighter, smaller, chunkier, too refined, not as refined and so on. More importantly they sometimes can be complete fruit loops to handle.

I have bred sight unseen and always regretted not seeing the stallion in the flesh.

I breed my foals as keepers and to sell so it is important for me to make the right choices for my preferences. Therefore, I prefer to see the horse.


----------



## stolensilver (29 May 2010)

Great posts Irishlife especially about seeing a stallion in the flesh if you are going to use him. So much can be hidden on photos and a video that you'd never find out about if you don't go and see the stallion yourself. The biggest thing about a good riding horse is temperament, second biggest thing is soundness. Neither of those can be truly assessed from photos. If you can't get to see the stallion yourself hearing from people whose opinion you trust is a good second best. Or using a stallion who is older so the weaknesses he passes on and any soundness issues or temperament idiosyncrasies are all well known and have been factored into your decision to use him on your mare.

I do think there is a big place for breeding for a mare who has been a long term family friend. If she reproduced herself in every detail she would make a foal that would easily find a home as they would have a lovely temperament. Where things go wrong is when a mare owner has never ridden the mare to check her rideability, trainability or soundness (or had a go at breaking her and run into issues) but decides to have a foal with her anyway and takes her to a local stallion because he's nearby. 

If the mare owner doesn't have enough knowledge of conformation (and while good conformation does not guarantee immunity from soft tissue injury, bad conformation sure does stack the deck against long term soundness) or check out what sort of temperament and type of mare the stallion mixes best with you can end up with the "bag of spare parts" horses that end up being sold at low end auctions and going for meat. Poor little things. It isn't their fault they are fugly. 

Even worse is a fairly new phenomenon where a mare owner will decide they are going to use a big, flashy, well marketed european stallion on their slightly difficult, not put together well mare with dreams of producing the next Shutterfly or Totilas. The problem there is that the less-than-perfect bits of the stallion will have been glossed over in the advertising, his explosive temperament will have been kept a well guarded secret and his twisted front leg hidden in the photos. (all hypothetical examples rather than pointing at one stallion). The result is usually a very expensive disaster. 

If you are going to breed your mare you owe it to her to assess her faults honestly and make a list of areas where she is weak and areas where she is strong. If she's fiery and sharp you don't want to put her to a stallion who throws sharp stock. If she's long in the back you don't want a long backed stallion. If she's toed in you don't want a toed in stallion and so on. Without having the knowledge to see these things in the mare and in the stallion the lottery of producing a good foal becomes even harder. And the biggest loser in the situation is the foal.


----------



## chrissie1 (29 May 2010)

Ss has summed it up so well.   I have always said I'd never use a stallion sight unseen, but did last year when a friends mare who we had in to foal had a simply stunning foal by Don Ricoss, and based on what we saw we used him, and the resulting foal is super.

But I am always wary of the promotional material as no one n their right minds will put up pictures that don't show the stallion in a good light, but what has also been a bee in my bonnet is that the stallions are all graded, even though less than perfect, and I appreciate here that no one has the perfect horse but you are getting trouble you wouldn't have expected from a Graded stallion.

I think nothng beats meetng the stallion, I have often walked into a box and instantly thought that yes, this is the one I was looking for, and also no - won't suit the mare at all.


----------



## magic104 (29 May 2010)

I have to say I have & never would use a stallion I had not seen in the flesh.  You can not judge their temperment from either video or photos for one thing.  The other part is seeing the offspring (unless using a young 1st season stallion) & their dams.  I feel it is important to see the mothers of the offspring.  We are all aware though that nothing is guaranteed, just look at full siblings!

I am trying to remember back to an article on Paul Schockemöhle, who has 1000's of  mares!!  How many foals are discarded from those each year?  How many of these mares have had a full competition career before becoming broodmares?  How many have been used at 3yrs before anyone can tell how sound they are when in work?  I asked someone about grading mares & their reply was the cost outways the benefits, unless you are going to have foal after foal.  Even then most people buying are not fussed whether the mare was/is graded or not.  The same with blood lines, most buyers dont have a clue all they are interested in, is the animal in front of them & can it do the job they require at a price they can afford.  I think its only breeders who really care about all of that, some riders will do because they know that a certain stallion can produce offspring for their sport.  

Hopefully the majority of people are well aware of NOT breeding a stallion with a mare who has the same faults in conformation.  Going back to soundness, that is something difficult to judge when a horse has been retired early due to injury.  If a horse has injured itself out in the field, it is deemed ok to breed, except who knows if it would have stayed sound as a ridden/competition horse.  So should we say that no horse is bred from unless  it is 10yrs+ & proven to be a sound animal?  Again can bad management not shorten a horses career?  How many people take the time to warm their horses up & down properly, gallop/jump their horses on rock hard ground.  Also is it fair to discard a horse because it was started too young & expected to take on work that it physically was not strong enough for?  Each horse needs to be taken on its own merit & history (where possible).  Also a lot of horses being bred are really not upto the weight of our "average rider".  Sorry guys but there are an awful lot of heavier hobby riders out there, men & women.  The quality MW/HW are getting harder to find, as everyone goes for the lighter more athletic type.  If we must import horses from the rest of Europe, can they at least be of superior quality to what you can find here.  I cant believe the amount of rubbish that has come across the water, with conformation defects that stand out from 100 paces.  And yet we are always having it rammed down our throats how much better their breeding programmes are, how they dont breed from ungraded mares/stallions.  Really!!  Have you seen the state of the horses waiting to go for meat?  I am glad the UK dont breed in the quantities of our European counterparts.  And yes there will always be the frugles but on the whole I think UK breeding has improved a great deal over the years & that is without any government backing what so ever.  We have some excellent studs here doing a grand job, we just need to get people to appreciate what we have & stop bringing over the rejects.  Also not every hobby breeder is a numpty, some actually do take a lot of care over their choices of stallion.  It would seem some assume that the one mare owner is breeding for the sake of it.  Anyone with an ounce of sense knows there is no money in it.  You are lucky to recoup your stud/vet fees let alone anything else.  There will always be exceptions, that is life, but on the whole I think this years crop (appreciate this is not even 1%) as last years have on the whole been stunning.  There really have been foals that would easliy hold their own against those bred in Europe.


----------



## LynneB (29 May 2010)

I would never describe any horse as "rubbish" I don't like it as a term to put on any living being - but in terms of breeding, no I would never breed from a horse with bad conformation, bad temperament or unsoundness be it mare or stallion (unless the unsoundness had come after prolonged work, eg competition etc).

None of my mares have competed, but they do have excellent pedigrees and someone once said "breed from the best, ride the rest" - the two who have had foals so far have produced the most wonderful babies and I could not be happier.  I also will not allow them to go away from me to be produced by someone who may not treat them kindly, they are far too precious.  

As for advertising for loan mares, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that?  It does not mean the advertiser will take any mare going, but many breeders take a break and would like their mares to go to good breeding homes while they do.  I am one of those who bought "sight unseen" with AJBliss, and we were very lucky, she is a mare with impeccable breeding and proven ability to have a foal.  We took a chance, so far it has paid off as she is a wonderful girl in all ways..proof will be in the pudding as to whether she gets in foal, but to us, it was a risk worth taking.


----------



## Maesfen (29 May 2010)

Well said Magic.


----------



## Cliqmo (29 May 2010)

Having read all 4 pages I'm afraid I really don't like the _tone_ of some of the posts on here 

However I agree that breeding from an unproven, lame mare with a bad attitude and poor conformation just to "make use of her" whilst she is turned away is damned foolish


----------



## magic104 (29 May 2010)

Cliqmo said:



			Having read all 4 pages I'm afraid I really don't like the _tone_ of some of the posts on here 

However I agree that breeding from an unproven, lame mare with a bad attitude and poor conformation just to "make use of her" whilst she is turned away is damned foolish 

Click to expand...


What are you on about???  There is no tone what so ever, please dont drag this into anything other then what it is & that is people putting their views across.  If you want to read "some posts" as having a tone that is your problem.  All I see is points of views being batted around, nothing else.


----------



## Clepottage (29 May 2010)

magic104 said:



			What are you on about???  There is no tone what so ever, please dont drag this into anything other then what it is & that is people putting their views across.  If you want to read "some posts" as having a tone that is your problem.  All I see is points of views being batted around, nothing else.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly. It's so nice to have a sensible discussion without it descending into a mudslinging contest!


----------



## GinnieRedwings (29 May 2010)

stolensilver said:



			Then there is temperament. If the mare is unwilling to work and dangerous to ride then she is not the sort of horse that should bring another generation into the world. Temperament can be inherited. If the mother isn't a nice horse then why risk reproducing that? There are enough sound, sane, kind mares in the world who should be mums to allow us to avoid putting the lame, difficult ones in foal.
		
Click to expand...

This is possibly true in principle, but in practice, a horse's "temperament" can be seriously spoilt by unsympathetic handling and when one decides to say "s*d off" because he/she can't understand what is asked of her and no-one cares to explain properly in a way that he/she can understand (that's called good training!), then he/she gets labelled "temperamental" - when it should really be the trainer/handler who should be labelled "c**p"! You'll find that it is often the mares too - because they are more sensitive and need more sympathetic handling than geldings, who tend to be more thick skinned.

I don't believe there is such a thing as a horse with bad temperament. Some are more sensitive, some are more confident, some are leaders and some are followers. The way they respond to unsympathetic training varies according to those basic traits of their personality. But ALL horses are born with a very simple set of instincts. Understand these, work with them in mind in your training and any young horse, regardless of their personality can be a nice respectful easy to handle horse.

The fact that a mare might have been slapped and pulled about rather than trained properly and learnt that she can then throw her 16.3hh, 600kgs body about and do some damage, for which she will get slapped about some more and so on and so forth, to the point when she is labelled a nutcase does not make her unsuitable for breeding. Only the basic handling and traning of her foal will decide whether that foal will be a nicely behaved horse who works well with people. Just like (as HarperGal very aptly said earlier) an Arco III X Galoubet youngster will not automatically become an international showjumper, especially if it is "produced" by an imbecile with no respect for or understanding of a horse's instincts.


----------



## Cliqmo (29 May 2010)

magic104 said:



			What are you on about???  There is no tone what so ever, please dont drag this into anything other then what it is & that is people putting their views across.  If you want to read "some posts" as having a tone that is your problem.  All I see is points of views being batted around, nothing else.
		
Click to expand...

I was referring to the original comments by 9tails and Enfys on page 1 and forecasting the tone of the rest of the contributers  Having now read the rest of the thread (and the additional comments from both 9tails and Enfys) I would like to wholly retract my original comment and agree with you that this is an interesting and non-bitchy thread. My apologies


----------



## magic104 (29 May 2010)

GinnieRedwings - You make very valid points, & it should be considered along with the fact that some horses are grumpy because they are in pain.  Unless a horse has been with its owner for years, it can be taken as just part of its nature.  If you bought a horse & someone said oh it always pulls its ears back/swishes its tail when saddling, some people may not think to get the saddle, or the horse checked, they just accept that is how it is.  But why should a horse put its ears back to be saddled, if you are considerate, there is no reason for it.  Just like people some have a better pain threshold then others.  Thats why I like my homebreds, you know them so well that you can pick up on any changes.


----------



## magic104 (29 May 2010)

Cliqmo said:



			I was referring to the original comments by 9tails and Enfys on page 1 and forecasting the tone of the rest of the contributers  Having now read the rest of the thread (and the additional comments from both 9tails and Enfys) I would like to wholly retract my original comment and agree with you that this is an interesting and non-bitchy thread. My apologies 

Click to expand...

Nice of you to apologis  It is a very pleasent thread, though not as pleasent as seeing all the new borns, those threads are the best.


----------



## 9tails (29 May 2010)

I find it a really interesting thread and wholeheartedly agree that horses with temperament and glaring conformation/lameness faults shouldn't be bred.  Horses whose ancestry can't be traced back to the Spanish Armada are not invariably rubbish.  I didn't buy a mare to breed her, mine is now 10 and in full ridden work.  As far as I'm aware she's still a maiden and she has the job of carrying me around rather than cooking babies.

ETA  I would be very disappointed if I did decide to breed her to find that it as frowned upon because she lacked pedigree.


----------



## LynneB (29 May 2010)

I agree re the pedigree, I do like to see as much as possible - but only with the sale of a foal in mind...but it is important too to look at the likes of Jumbo who has half of his missing, it certainly did not affect his quality and ability - or his demand as a stallion.


----------



## SusieT (29 May 2010)

Totally with stolen silver.
too much rubbish bred. Breed from the best and the rubbish will be better than the worst of the rubbish.
There are so so many horses out there-so if your horse doesn't have a good temperment, good record for the discipline you're breeding for and *excellent * conformation, don't breed from it. And if it's injured without scenarios described by stolen silver-why one earth you would want to breed from it I have no idea. 
All this argueing that 'but my horse is an exception because I love it' or that some wonderful horses wouldn't be here-well there are plenty of wonderful horses out there. 
Yes it is discrimanatory-but that is the way to get sound horses. 
I also btw subscribe to this theory for breeding all animals (e.g labradors and hip scores) including people (heridable conditions should be screened for and embryos with them-destroyed).


----------



## Holly831 (29 May 2010)

SusieT said:



			I also btw subscribe to this theory for breeding all animals (e.g labradors and hip scores) including people (heridable conditions should be screened for and embryos with them-destroyed).
		
Click to expand...

Um now I could actually start a real argument on this one - my OH is insulin dependent diabetic and my daughter has cerabal palsy, my nephew is autistic and my neice has downs syndrome. Which of those wuld you were rather not born? BTW my now 16 year old daughter is currently applying to study medicine at Cambridge - she is a school year ahead. My nephew is going into law and my niece into childcare. My OH is just fantastic and no one has a bad word to say about him (yes I am VERY lucky to have him )


----------



## SusieT (29 May 2010)

and if they had to chose I bet they'd chose to live life without downs, autism etc.  
Once people are born (and I count birth as being able to survive outside the womb) I believe everything should be done to facilitate their survival and optimum life so I am glad to hear about your niece and nephew 
As foetuses, I do not belive known severe disabilities or illnesses should be brought into the world. And yes, that does include autism and downs. I do not know enough about cerebal palsy/IDD to comment on them. 
If you had a choice between a normal child and one with a disability, which one would you choose?


----------



## magic104 (29 May 2010)

SusieT said:



			and if they had to chose I bet they'd chose to live life without downs, autism etc.  
Once people are born (and I count birth as being able to survive outside the womb) I believe everything should be done to facilitate their survival and optimum life so I am glad to hear about your niece and nephew 
As foetuses, I do not belive known severe disabilities or illnesses should be brought into the world. And yes, that does include autism and downs. I do not know enough about cerebal palsy/IDD to comment on them. 
If you had a choice between a normal child and one with a disability, which one would you choose?
		
Click to expand...

When I was younger I might have agreed with some of the above, but after working with RDA & seeing these youngsters & adults enjoying every bit of being alive I dont think it is for us to play god.  I understand you are speaking about a blob for a better term, but where do you draw the line?  Are we then going to get so above outselves that we start having designer childern?  Oh there are too many males, or we want blue eyed, blond haired offspring.  Yes it is extreme, but then just look at how far humanity has pushed the boundaries of acceptablility already.


----------



## Beatrice5 (29 May 2010)

GinnieRedwings well said ! My mare was one of those labelled rubbish but had just be messed about by ignorant people. She is now a total darling, very well mannered slightly careful around strangers but never nasty or bad tempered. And yes she was put in foal but some stallion that was a random colt from the sales by her owners 2 previous to me but so far Henna looks straight and all there and is gentle, well behaved and touch wood healthy and happy. I hope and am sure with continued careful consistent handling she will make me or if something awful happened someone else a wonderful all rounder who is happy and confident and a joy to live with.

I agree this is a great discussion and have really enjoyed this thread.


----------



## SusieT (29 May 2010)

Saying that we will then 'get above ourselves' is not an automatic follow on to me. Saying we can't do this because this may then happen doesn't work for me.
Designer children will happen if they happen, and I suspect they won't or only in very elite circles where money talks.


----------



## stolensilver (29 May 2010)

I'd just like to say that I believe life is life from the moment of conception and don't agree in any way, shape or form with "playing God". But I do think we're wandering rather a long way from the original question!


----------



## Holly831 (29 May 2010)

Actually I wouldn't change my daughter for anything - the fact that she has a disability has made her what she is. If I could go back and change things? No I wouldn't, she is what she is and thats why she is special, disablilities and all. She is the reason I got into horses (RDA) and they have done wonders for her to the extent she walks un aided and her balance has improved beyond what we could have hoped for. If I ask my sister the same question she wouldn't change anything either.

I have to ask if you have children? if so I believe you would never have asked the question.

Nothing in life is perfect and I pray to God that we never have a world where any disability is a cause for termination - if that happens where do you stop? is cleft palate a reason? or how about 6 fingers? infact what about a child that will only ever be below average inteligence because thats what its parents are? Do we stop anyone who is not perfect from having children?

I am not pro life at any cost - but quality of life is worth having and can be life with disabilities. 

I know this thread is about breeding horses and I would never knowingly breed from a mare/stallion with a disorder but if one came to light I wouldn't have the resulting foal destroyed either unless it could never be sound/painfree/able to do a job.

Rant over (for now)


----------



## LynneB (29 May 2010)

SusieT said:



			and if they had to chose I bet they'd chose to live life without downs, autism etc.  
Once people are born (and I count birth as being able to survive outside the womb) I believe everything should be done to facilitate their survival and optimum life so I am glad to hear about your niece and nephew 
As foetuses, I do not belive known severe disabilities or illnesses should be brought into the world. And yes, that does include autism and downs. I do not know enough about cerebal palsy/IDD to comment on them. 
If you had a choice between a normal child and one with a disability, which one would you choose?
		
Click to expand...


do you have children?  not to kidnap this thread but as you raised it, you admit you don't know much about cerebral palsy etc, you clearly don't know much about Downs and Autism either - before bringing human beings into an argument, which may be very offensive to parents of children with disabilities, you should educate yourself..or perhaps even keep quiet, as there but for the grace of god may go you one day - it is not for an able bodied person to say who can and cannot have a life or indeed enjoy one.. !


----------



## Holly831 (29 May 2010)

I appologise to the OP - I should keep my mouth shut but couldn't not reply to the above.

Sorry for encouraging the hijacking the thread which incidently I think has seen some really good arguments and no name calling - very grown up!! One of the most entertaining threads on the forum (sorry but I have to discount the cute foal ones as they win every time!!)


----------



## SusieT (30 May 2010)

-I never raised specific human beings-but I was asked and gave my honest answer. 
If you would inflict disability on a human beings if you had the choice, I do not believe that to be anyone's honest answer.
My opinion is my opinion. If you find it offensive-tough. 
I find it offensive when people who know their offspring may have  a huge chance of having a disability,and in fact, can be tested for it, insist on bringing those offspring to term, either on the hope if will be normal or not caring either way. 
I never said they could nto have a life or enjoy it-but it is my belief it is a diminished life. 
do please feel free to PM me if you do not understand my views and wish to. I do understand  your veiwpoint and that it is personal but I apply the same standards to all animals, regardless.


----------



## Eothain (30 May 2010)

Wow! Well this sure has gone downhill!!! I had something to say, but don't think I cou;d be ar*ed now though. Just on the topic of playing God, if "you" have a mare scanned in foal with twins, would "you" have one pinched?


----------



## Arabelle (30 May 2010)

Back on topic, I know people who have bred from very average  (or worse) mares and personally, I do not understand it.  Why not by a quality, well bred youngster instead? It will work out much cheaper.

I am breeding from my mare on the basis of her excellent bloodlines and outstanding competition record.  I could buy a youngster with excellent bloodlines, however it actually is quite difficult to buy a foal from a dam with a decent competiton record, as people are less likely to interrupt a succesful competition career to breed from a mare.

However, being honest, my main motive is still sentiment, so I do understand that, but I still wouldn't do it if my mare wasn't quality.

For the record, I find any comparison with humans thoughtless and insensitive.


----------



## Alec Swan (30 May 2010)

Oh dear, oh dear.  This thought provoking thread has certainly,  and to use the same words as Eothain,  "Gone down hill".  That's a great shame.  

Alec.


----------



## gadetra (30 May 2010)

well just to get back to the point-although there are plenty of people breeding from lovely family pets etc. would they hold up in the open market?
I always do a conformation assesment on the stallion to see if they complimemt my mares first, obviously sticking to a type that would 'improve' them-surely this is the point of all breeding?
I also factor in how marketable the resulting foal will be-anything I breed has to pass this test. Even though you may be breeding a 'keeper' you never know what can happen so they have to be correct, sound and marketable.
However, I have a major gripe with the flood of mares 'fashionable' stallions attract-I posted about this in another thread but there are serious numbers of ordinary, lovely and super mares going to particular stallions (this is especially prevelant in Ireland I don't know what the situation is in England.) Not all 300 mares going to these stallions can suit them. therefore the market becomes flooded with ordinary/incorrect stock of these stallions and everyone chasing after that elusive top priced lot in Goresbridge/Cavan that brought them to the stallion in the first place. This HAS to stop.
Even though mine will not be Olympians (but just give me time..!!) they are correct, sound and always easy to deal with. I have never bred a cross/sharp/rude horse. However handling is also half the battle. 
I always consider when I'm lining up 'husbands' for my mares would I buy the resulting animal? I have to breed something I'd be happy to buy myself. 
Rant over!!


----------



## Serenity087 (30 May 2010)

actually, Gadetra, I think thats the most sensible post I've read on the topic.

Would I buy the resulting animal myself?

I think this is something people need to have a serious think about.  Referring to extreme fuglies, would you buy that conformationally appaulling foal because it's palomino? No? Then it probably wasn't a good idea to breed.  Just because SOMEONE will buy it, doesn't mean you HAVE to breed it!

River looks to be a horse I could have loved, but I've chosen to give her up and keep Dorey because I KNOW she's a horse I love!  However, the woman who will be keeping River has been interested since she found out Dorey had taken to a thoroughbred.

So yeah.

As for disabled children.  My little sister, had she survived, would have been severely crippled.  Her death is almost a blessing.  But her disabilities and her fate were not for us to chose.  
Her death also lead to the conception of my brother, who unfortunately is also disabled, albeit mildly.

Disability and death is a side affect of attempting to breed any creature, humans included.  You cannot "breed" for autism or downs syndrome, and I don't think you should be allowed to terminate downs syndromes.  Yes, we're very lucky with what we know about the genetics of dieases and disabilities, but the rest of the time what comes out at the end of it is down to pot luck.


----------



## jaypeebee (30 May 2010)

I dont know what category I fit into going by this discussion.  I breed only pedigreed horses.  I have a set of criteria when choosing my mares.  First is pedigree.  I am very specific about my bloodlines and if mares dont have those lines then that is the end of my interest in them.  Second is conformation.  Mares must have very good conformation and pleasing on the eye, be 100% sound, with a proven track record.  Third is temperament.  My belief is that foals are highly influenced by their dams so this is very important to me.  Fourth is colour genetics.  The base colour must be within my range of acceptables.  If all this set of criteria is fulfilled by a mare then my interest remains, if she does not hold them all then she is of no interest to me.

Choosing stallions every year for my mares is slightly more complex in that they also have to fulfill the above criteria but they need to go beyond that as they also need to have similar statures which will compliment the mares.  I struggle to use a stallion of a lesser quality to a mare but I admit it is something I have done at least once before and the results were exceptional.  My theory that damlines are so much more important held up to the test.  My dams are very important to me.  They are the footings on which everything else is built around.  To choose mares wisely is to set solid foundations and their quality are something I would never make compromises on.


----------



## jaypeebee (30 May 2010)

Eothain said:



			Wow! Well this sure has gone downhill!!! I had something to say, but don't think I cou;d be ar*ed now though. Just on the topic of playing God, if "you" have a mare scanned in foal with twins, would "you" have one pinched?
		
Click to expand...

I do each and every time twins come into the equation.  My responsibility is first and foremost towards my mares.  Twins could be the death of her so not a chance in hell that I would compromise her life.


----------



## Truly (30 May 2010)

Harper_Gal said:



			actually, Gadetra, I think thats the most sensible post I've read on the topic.

Would I buy the resulting animal myself?

I think this is something people need to have a serious think about.  Referring to extreme fuglies, would you buy that conformationally appaulling foal because it's palomino? No? Then it probably wasn't a good idea to breed.  Just because SOMEONE will buy it, doesn't mean you HAVE to breed
 it
		
Click to expand...

I'm trying hard to change peoples perception that if it's not a 'normal' colour that it's rubbish.
People think if you're breeding for an 'unusual' colour that it is the only thing taken into consideration.
That is true with some so I know it will take me a while to change the predudice just like the coloureds 15years ago.
I showed Electrum as a yearling at Herts County in a Sportshorse class and the judge actually said to me 'when he walked in the ring I didn't 'like' his colour but when you stood him up infront of me he is a really nice horse'..... she pulled him up from the bottom to 2nd .
I have been breeding mostly TB's for over 20 years and always tried to get a bay lol ......noone ever questions if you try to breed to get a bay and not a chesnut lol
I am so particular about what I breed, whatever colour lol ....but I love when people actually see my unusual coloured horses and make their own opinion because I'm rubbish at taking photo's and also it's not in my character to boastfully promote them. My horses can speak for themselves so to say.
I know you weren't deliberately knocking palomino's but it was the colour that came to your mind first when you made the fugly statement if you see my point x


----------



## magic104 (30 May 2010)

On the topic of colour so long as the horse is of sound conformation there is nothing wrong with trying to breed for Palomino etc.  They have their own classes & their own stud books so I dont see any difference.  Out of interest Electrum's stud fee for a GSB mare is 1900 plus the 100 booking fee, does this mean these foals are fetching in excess of 2k?


----------



## Holly831 (30 May 2010)

....I bred a liver chesnut mare with a dun stallion - nothing to do with his colour - and expected a chesnut foal...I have ended up with the most beautiful palamino Filly (turns out her sire - Dun to Order (Fergus the Bogeyman) is actually buckskin).

We actually call her the Barbie horse because she doesn't look 'real'. She is a very dark toned palamino with a very very silver mane & tail..... a really beautiful head and perfect (I believe) conformation. 

Sort of off topic again...sorry!!


----------



## Truly (30 May 2010)

magic104 said:



			On the topic of colour so long as the horse is of sound conformation there is nothing wrong with trying to breed for Palomino etc.  They have their own classes & their own stud books so I dont see any difference.  Out of interest Electrum's stud fee for a GSB mare is 1900 plus the 100 booking fee, does this mean these foals are fetching in excess of 2k?
		
Click to expand...

Electrum's only 3yo so no foals till next year. 
I blooming well hope their worth over 2k lol it cost me an arm and leg to buy and get him over from the US ......I hope you were joking?
I'll support the BPS and am sponsoring the ridden sporthorse class at their Nat Champs but I'm not breeding palominos just to show.
Aurumba is registered in the General stud book and I'm hopefully putting him in training next year. His dam is from a good racing damline so there's no reason he hasn't an equal chance 
All the horses I breed are aimed as eventers, they 're bred to do a job but I like a goodlooking horse whether it be bay or pally


----------



## magic104 (30 May 2010)

I am most certainly not having a dig or go or anything.  Just curious, there are a fair few TB's standing who have form whether it be on the track or otherwise. whose stud fees are less then half.  Please dont take this the wrong way (comes from being a buyer), but what justification at his young age for the high (in comparison to other sportshorses/tb's) stud fee?  I dont know how to get this across as in offensive as possible.  But as a buyer I will always look for savings, it is my duty to get the best possible price.  If though there is a deadline then price may have to take 2nd place.  As we have touched on salebility of offspring, I wondered if Electrum's offspring will recover the stud fee.


----------



## jaypeebee (30 May 2010)

magic104 said:



			Out of interest Electrum's stud fee for a GSB mare is 1900 plus the 100 booking fee, does this mean these foals are fetching in excess of 2k?
		
Click to expand...

I hope you dont mind me highlighting this Magic.  I was also speechless when I read the above.  Why would anyone breed foals *not* selling for well in excess of 2k?  Surely the sums most breeders are getting for weanling foals is very much higher than 2k otherwise what would be the point of anyone breeding unless for self indulgence or for the elite few.


----------



## magic104 (30 May 2010)

jaypeebee said:



			I hope you dont mind me highlighting this Magic.  I was also speechless when I read the above.  Why would anyone breed foals *not* selling for well in excess of 2k?  Surely the sums most breeders are getting for weanling foals is very much higher than 2k otherwise what would be the point of anyone breeding unless for self indulgence or for the elite few.
		
Click to expand...

Why are you speechless?  What people advertise & what they get are 2 different things.  Also just one example Smart bay gelding born June 08 to make 16.0hh or 16.1hh. By Its Without Doubt and out of a good hunting mare whos Sire was Hot Rumour and Grand Sire Hill Farmer. 

Good looking yearling with speed and lovely movement. Just the right material for an eventing prospect. 
£2,750. 

That is a 2yo so there is the keep etc to add on.  Then there are the bloodstock sales, plenty of young stock there dont make their stud fee, & not all are badly bred, or have awful conformation.


----------



## mle22 (30 May 2010)

We decided last year to put our mare in foal. She was a 'rescue' horse, bought from a field by the woman for whom my daughter worked because she felt so sorry for her. She was skeletal and so weak she almost died. My daughter fell for her and we bought her. She had a lot of behavioural problems initially but to cut a long story short, she turned into a wonderful mare who evented to novice level, won countless dressage competitions did working hunter and was riding club regional champion in dressage, and horse trials and turned out to have a wonderful loving temprement. She would try her heart out for my daughter. She is a bright chestnut and white skewbald and has a fan club wherever she goes! However she does have less than perfect front leg conformation (though she has never been unsound) and we have no idea of her breeding. We wanted to breed from her for a 'keeper' horse for my daughter but we thought very carefully about what she needed to 'improve' her eg scope, movement, and also what we wanted, a good allrounder who could possibly event up to one star. Lots of people said we should go for a coloured stallion but our feeling was it should be the right stallion rather than just go for colour. The foal is due any day now, so I'm not sure if we will get waht we ordered - but my point is that while some might see her as rubbish - unknown pedigree, less than perfect conformation - we fel fully justified in breeding from her.


----------



## lauraandjack (30 May 2010)

Regardless of pedigree/breeding/achievements of parents I think the important question to ask is,

If this was a gelding, would I be disappointed that I can't breed from it?

And if the answer is no, DON'T BREED HER!

Just because it has a uterus doesn't mean it should be breeding (yes this can be applied to females of ALL species!!!!!)


----------



## stevieg (30 May 2010)

I sometimes wonder why there are so many horses being born tbh. 

We have just bought a 3 year old TB mare for less than £2k. The sire is a multiple winner on the flat and the dam completed successfully in Hunter Trials and dressage comps. She is unbroken but very well handled with good conformation & a super outlook. 

The stud fee alone was £1500 which, although not a lot, does eat into the £1800 we paid for her, somewhat!


----------



## Serenity087 (30 May 2010)

Truly said:



			I know you weren't deliberately knocking palomino's but it was the colour that came to your mind first when you made the fugly statement if you see my point x
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't knocking coloureds!

I was knocking using colour as a disguise for poor conformation!

We've got a lovely little apricot dun colt atm, half arab, quarter highland and quarter shire.  On experience of showing him, people get as far as the fact that he is a stunning colour (light mane and tail, golden body, deep red dorsal stripe and primative strips on his legs!) and thats it.

Would love to see what people thought of him if he were bay!

My point was that too many of Fugly's stallions are cremello, garunteed to throw golden foals, but not very nicely put together themselves.
Hence why I mentioned palominos, because thats what a cremello sire would drop (as well as buckskins, of course!)


----------



## jaypeebee (31 May 2010)

magic104 said:



			Why are you speechless?  What people advertise & what they get are 2 different things.
		
Click to expand...

I know what I get for my weanlings.  I would stop breeding if all I got for my troubles was 2k for each weanling.  Youre right though and I see it all the time with older youngsters who sell for under 3k or even 2k.  My point is that if these foals are selling for 8k-15k as 6 month old weanlings then some middle man is losing a lot of money somewhere.  It isnt me as the breeder and it isnt you as the buyer thankfully.


----------



## Truly (31 May 2010)

Magic I can sort of understand what you are saying 

We have(are still) been in a recession and many people are selling horses and breeders that normally sell foals have a backlog of yearlings, 2yo, 3yo's unsold. Many have sold the older ones off cheaply because they can't afford feed and hay for triple the amount of horses they normally feed.
There are thousands out there of similar breeding and quality...they are not a rarity.
My heart goes out to those breeders and anyone having financial worries.

Of course his high fee for General Stud Book TB mares is because of his colour...his fee to others is £500 which is average for a decent sporthorse stallion.

There are only 3 GSB TB palominos and 1 cremello over here (only my Aurumba was born here, I sent his dam to Germany to be live covered)

When I bought Electrum I didn't expect to pay the same a bay GSB TB I could buy here and I certainly didn't expect to pay Gestut Falkenhorst in Germany £500 stud fee for a rare cremello TB stallion she'd imported from the US at great cost. His stud fee was 3000 euro.

Of course not everyone has the same taste in horses but there are plenty of people that do appreciate a rare horse and like myself realise that comes at a cost.

I'm not rich and live for my horses, I haven't been on holiday for 6 years and my family and I work 365 with no other staff running a large livery yard.
I'm not saying how much I paid for Electrum but just to ship him over here cost about £6000

So I really do think his GSB TB foals will be worth the stud fee.

He covered a clients GSB TB Galileo mare Saturday so there are people that are willing to pay his stud fee for something rare and they really want.

Because I'm talking about colour here, I don't want people to think I bought him 'just' because of that. If he wasn't correct etc I wouldn't have bought him.

The colourful side is a new project for me..breeding TB's isn't as I've been breeding over 23years and I certainly wouldn't waste my own mares, especially my foundation mares lines if the resulting foals were only worth 2k..I turned down 20k for my filly in the left of my sig (and I deliberately haven't bred anything of my own since 2008 because there is a credit crunch and don't usually sell my own foals and that's a high feed bill!)

I hope that clears up 'why' and people understand that the only other alternative is to buy from the US or Germany, at least here you can see Electrum and use your own mare


----------



## sywell (31 May 2010)

If you breed a poor horse then it will be badly treated throughout its life so good breeding is important. The breed societies that will only issue papers to the progeny of mares that have been approved for breeding are setting the example to follow. There is clear evidence of the principles for the evaluation of the horse for temprement and confirmation over the last 300 years laid down by the great equitation centres throughout Europe. Thomas Nissan breeding director of Holstein sees sucess as horses competing at Grand Prix at 17 years old that have come through their breeding program. The WFSH with Upsala University have been trying to collect data on the longevity of competition horses who lead more stressful lives that horses have in the past.


----------



## magic104 (31 May 2010)

Truly thank you very much for the reply, & hopefully understanding I was not in anyway suggesting he was not worth the stud fee.  You did not have to justify or respond so I really appreciate that you did.


----------



## henryhorn (31 May 2010)

mle22 I completely agree with your reasons for breeding from your mare and for many people, they are why they breed.
You are using proven temperament and soundness, a nice "Look at me" quality and why on earth shouldn't you?
The visiting mares we get here are usually the only mare their owner has, and they have strict requirements as to what they want in a stallion. They want above all a good temperament, trainability, soundness, paces that improve their own mare's, and proven competition experience. 
Look at the numbers in this country of riders. Probably 20% if that compete above at above Elementary BD or Foxhunter BSJA. 
Then you have the happy hackers who often would like to compete  on the right horses, probably 20%.
The remaining 60% want a horse that stays sound, is talented enough to go round a Novice BE, and get placings whatever they decide to have a go at. If you have trainability, a tough constitution and a temperament that makes it possible to hunt one day, dressage the next then that's what most riders in the Uk like.
It's all very well for someone to class anything without a proven pedigree "rubbish" and I do agree breeding from something unseen is sheer madness, but my point is having a pedigree as long as your arm doesn't mean a horse is any good, or suitable to breed from !
I would say breeding from a mare you have enjoyed is a good a reason as any, to want to reproduce yet improve is exactly the way to go.
Sorry this reply has turned into a bit of a rant but reasons for breeding are something I feel very strongly about, and often they get it wrong, having seen so many riders either overhorsed or horses unsuitable for the conditions they have to live in with restricted turnout etc when teaching, I firmly believe not everyone needs to breed world beaters..
Yes we need them, but we also need just nice horses too...


----------



## angrovestud (31 May 2010)

Here here Henryhorn,
and Like Truly said  why is it everytime colour comes up people do mostly assume that you dont care what it looks like comformation or temp, do they think that because you are breeding from coloureds of anykind, you dont know how a horse should look.
I also had a few having a go at my colt beause he had a rare bloodline he was exspensive I have found that I have had to lower his stud fee until he gets some stock on the ground,first foal due this year


----------



## mle22 (31 May 2010)

Thank you Henryhorn - you have said exactly what I was trying to say! My daughter is an amateur rider who would like a nice quality horse that is capable of doing what she wants it to do, doesn't have to be a world beater - yes we could go out and buy one, but the fact that we are breeding from a mare who we love and appreciate, is the added bonus -


----------



## magic104 (31 May 2010)

angrovestud said:



			Here here Henryhorn,
and Like Truly said  why is it everytime colour comes up people do mostly assume that you dont care what it looks like comformation or temp, do they think that because you are breeding from coloureds of anykind, you dont know how a horse should look.
I also had a few having a go at my colt beause he had a rare bloodline he was exspensive I have found that I have had to lower his stud fee until he gets some stock on the ground,first foal due this year
		
Click to expand...

It comes from the fact that there were too many coloured stallions that would never have passed muster if they had been a solid colour.  It may have improved now, but in the past it was not the case.  It is nice to see something different, & they do stand out in a crowd of bays.  I have to say makes fence judging an awful lot easier.


----------



## brighteyes (31 May 2010)

Holly831 said:



			...I call my mare (Ellie) elsbells......

Anyway, its a matter of opinion as to what people think makes a good brood mare.

We can't all have superstars and there will always be room for the mare with good confo but no real competition record or where would all your everyday riding club types come from?

Breeding with genetic faults is a different matter, sadly one of my brood mares developed mild sweetitch last year but I have still put her back in foal, I have retained her 2 previous fillies (aged 2 and 3) and they show no signs, speaking to my stud vet he confirmed there is no proof it is heradatory and she produces such cracking foals. I would not have bought a mare with sweetitch to breed from but last year was the first time in 6 years she had even shown any signs - other than she hates flys.

As for breeding from a mare you have never seen/met, for me thats a no as the temprement of the mare (to me) is as important as good conformation.

My foundation mare I bought for all the wrong reasons - ie at a horse sale, they had 'weaned' her 4.5 month old filly at the sales and I felt sorry for her. She was a well bred sec D that had only ever been a brood mare and it actually turned out well, I was more than happy with the foals she gave me.

My other 2 are ex competition mares (SJ + Dressage), one of which (Dressage) had a serious tendon injury, she was going to be PTS because her then owner didn't want to pay for the 6 - 12 months rest she needed. I spoke to the vet and he confirmed it wasn't anything to do with the mares conformation and he was 90% sure she would recover with the correct treatment. I really liked the mare and although she has 'no breeding' decided to take the gamble. She had 18 months off and then I had her covered. She is 100% sound and now age 12 ( I have had her nearly 6 years) and I have retained both her fillies, she is due to faol anytime by Millenium, she is the mare with sweetitch.

The other SJ mare I bought as the girl who owned her couldn't handle her. She has good lines and is a real sweetie on the ground. She can be a little hot headed to ride but with a confident rider she is fab. Her foals to date have inherited her beautiful temprement on the ground.

Sorry for the rant... I breed from my girls because they are lovely 'people' and have good conformation not because of their lines. Had their first foals been not what I expected then I would not have bred from them again.

I do not expect to breed a superstar (although one of my - now 2 year old -geldings has gone to a well known eventer ) I just want to breed sound, well mannered, trainable youngsters to go on and do a job.

Click to expand...

Except that there are already more than enough to go round and plenty of others lining up to be scrapped for no other reason than there are no more homes.  They are here, now.  Why have more foals to push them out of the queue?

Most people who breed seem to talk as though there aren't enough horse and ponies to meet demand.  It floors me.


----------



## charlimouse (31 May 2010)

I havn't read the replies, but I will throw in my views anyway!!!! My mare is about to have her first foal. The decision was not made lightly, and I actually put her in foal off the reccommendation from my vet. She is a failed racehorse (failed stall tests),ended up with the meat man, who I then rescued her off. She has decent breeding (Nijinski blood lines), but also has a twisted pelvis from an injury when she paniced (sp) in the stalls. In 2008 we completed a CCI*. She has never had a XC penality. At the beginning of the 2009 event season I could tell she just wasn't quite right, she was still jumping, but not with the same enthusiasm. The vet thought he pelvis was causing the issue, so would need a year off from ridden work. The vet then suggested I put her in foal as she has breeding, conformation is OK, fab temperament, and good affilliated record. I chose the stallion wisely, an went to visit several before picking out the one I thought would compliment my mare the best. IMO this is responsible breeding.

On the other hand my friend has a nasty, bad tempered mare of unknown breeding. This mare is no longer ridden as it just throws the rider off. She has demolished several stables, lorries, etc. and can only be handled by very experianced people. So what did my friend do??? You've guessed it, put the mare in foal. Not just once, but every year. There are now several foals/ youngstock out of this mare, and all are just as temperamental. IMO this is irresponsible breeding.


----------



## SusieT (1 June 2010)

A cast aside mare with a wonky pelvis (foaling issues potentially??)...
I can think of better things than breeding to do with her!


----------



## Truly (1 June 2010)

SusieT said:



			A cast aside mare with a wonky pelvis (foaling issues potentially??)...
I can think of better things than breeding to do with her!
		
Click to expand...

I can't...I think that is an excellent idea for this particular mare 

Nice pedigree, nice temp, talented mare, probably nice confo I can't see a pic?
Vet suggested it so obviously checked her out and her pelvis can't that bad if she jumped round BE novice and he thinks she'll be ok in a year.

She ticks all the boxes...so I can't see why not


----------



## Bedlam (1 June 2010)

I think I'd be questioning the vet quite closely on this one. He only 'thinks' the pelvis is the problem?

I'd want to KNOW before I gave the mare a year off or put her in foal. I'd also ask the question about foaling complications with a damaged pelvis - but that's quite obvious, so I suspect that you already have.

On a more general note - I love my mare to pieces and was hoping that she would become a broodmare at some point. BUT she has had squamous cell carcinoma of the 3rd eyelid, kissing spines (both successfully operated on) and recently Azoturia. Great temprament, fantastic ability, super bloodlines, but no way am I considering breeding from her now. 

(Might see if she can be a surrogate for embryo transfer for my super yearling filly though.......?)


----------



## SusieT (1 June 2010)

Great to see someone being sensible bedlam!


----------



## Holly831 (1 June 2010)

brighteyes said:



			Except that there are already more than enough to go round and plenty of others lining up to be scrapped for no other reason than there are no more homes.  They are here, now.  Why have more foals to push them out of the queue?

Most people who breed seem to talk as though there aren't enough horse and ponies to meet demand.  It floors me.
		
Click to expand...

So what would you suggest then? That we all stop breeding anything other than potential superstars who, when they don't make the grade are often too fizzy, too big, too fine etc for your everyday home? Who makes the decision on what is to be bred? I for one (and sorry if it offends) am not a TB fan - I love my cob gelding Irish hunter and I would love to breed horses like him. Or would you have the country flooded with WB imports?


----------



## SusieT (1 June 2010)

at what point didanyone say non rubbish was only warmbloods???
common misconception in these arguements. The key phrase is excelling in the chosen discipline..your thinking purely dressage..


----------



## stolensilver (1 June 2010)

I think the essential ingredients of a broodmare are saneness and soundness. If they are lame due to a major accident then maybe they will be OK to be a broodmare but if they have gone lame under normal circumstances then no, IMO, that is not a mare who should pass on her genes. 

Please notice there's nothing in the above about being a superstar or a warmblood or having a pedigree. A nice mare who has done a great job for many years no matter what that job is  has the potential to produce another generation of nice horses that will do a great job. Where the issues arrive are people breeding from a mare who went lame young "because the vet says its not due to her conformation". GGGRRRR!!!! What nonsense! I sound like a broken record here but most lameness is due to soft tissue injury and soft tissue strength is inherited completely differently to conformation. We all know it is possible for horses with perfect conformation to go lame with suspensories etc and for horses who are a funny shape to stay sound throughout their careers. IMHO if a mare goes lame young then she should not be bred from no matter what famous names are on her papers or how many shows she won in hand. I'd rather breed from a mare of unknown parentage (like Jumbo's mum!!) who has done a great job all her life and stayed sound doing it than a mare with the fanciest parents imaginable that is lame before their 10th birthday (unless it is due to a big accident).


----------



## magic104 (1 June 2010)

I sound like a broken record here but most lameness is due to soft tissue injury and soft tissue strength is inherited completely differently to conformation. - Not sure that is strickly true because I have known more then one lot of full siblings where one has sustained a breakdown & the other has not.  There is not enough research on the topic for everyone to dismiss a mare for that reason.  It is your choice, just as it is mine never to breed from a mare with sarcoids.  As from a previous thread, there are those that dont believe they are passed on.  We wont know unless detailed records are kept on every horse, like for instance the problem of retained testies, sarcoids, tendon injuries, etc.


----------



## Clepottage (1 June 2010)

magic104 said:



			We wont know unless detailed records are kept on every horse, like for instance the problem of retained testies, sarcoids, tendon injuries, etc.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on. This type of research is so important to the future of breeding, not only in this country and not only at the 'top' end of the market but worldwide and across all spheres and disiplines too. The major problem arises when one tries to consider the logistics of such a massive operation which brings me back around to my (and most people's) mantra of not breeding from 'rubbish'. 

It's simply not possible to know how hereditary many of the medical conditions discussed in this thread are yet, so, the best we can do as responsible breeders is to try to minimise the risks by only breeding sound (exceptional injuries excluded) mares with good conformation, temprament and if at all possible good bloodlines and a proven competition record.

I've been watching this thread for the past few days but not contributing as many have said just what I was thinking in a much more eloquent way than I ever could. Great discussion guys!


----------



## charlimouse (1 June 2010)

SusieT said:



			A cast aside mare with a wonky pelvis (foaling issues potentially??)...
I can think of better things than breeding to do with her!
		
Click to expand...

What an unbelievably rude comment to make !!!!!!! For the record my vet plays a very large roll in the BHS campaign for responsible breeding, and he really rates her. He suggested putting her in foal, not me. What I wrote was a brief overview of what went on with my mare, not every detail was included. I have may be new to breeding, but I am not stupid. As far as my vet and I are concerned she ticks all the boxes for temperment, breeding, conformation and good affilliated record. The pelvis injury occured from a incident when a horse jumped between starting stalls into her stall, knocking her to the ground. To come out with just a slight wonky pelvis (not major, but about 0.5cm higher on 1 side) was a miricle, and shows just how tough she is. She has never had a lame day, nor has she ever been ill in any way. I know I made a correct informed decision, and at the end of the day approval to breed for this mare from my vet who is very picky about breeding "rubbish" means far more to me than rude, snide comments on a internet forum.

Bedlam - The vet knows it her pelvis which is causing the problems (scans, x rays etc). After closely looking at the pics from the xrays and scans he can't see any reason why it should prevent her from having a problem free delivery.


----------



## lme (1 June 2010)

I bred from my much loved quirky chestnut mare because I wanted her foal.  Her (equally quirky) chestnut daughter is a much loved member of our family.  It would probably have been much cheaper to go out & buy something, but (for me) it wouldn't have been the same.


----------



## Irishlife (1 June 2010)

I have made a couple of posts earlier but seeing how it has been panning out I have a few more observations.

Soft tissue injuries 1)- good conformation is essential e.g. short cannon bone shorter ligaments = stronger ligaments everyone knows if you put too much strain on a long lever it will break, whereas a short one will not - simple mechanics. Ligaments, tendons etc perform optimally when conformation is correct. 

Soft tissue injuries 2)- management of a horse's workload has as much to do with breakdowns as any genetic predisposition, think tightly bandaged tendons, incorrect training, galloping too soon in a fitness programme, jumping on hard ground - the reasons are endless which is why it is difficult to quantify if quality of ligaments, tendons etc are a genetic expression or caused by bad management. It simply is not possible to collect data as management is a key factor also. You cannot look at one without the other.

Therefore, the only measure is good conformation which is proven to be the significant element in soundness on mechanical principles.

Mares on the continent are often put in foal at three so they have a foal on the ground before they begin their competitive careers, the theory being if the mare is a successful performer, the breeder is ahead of the game commercially as they have a potential stallion, broodmare or commercial opportunity in hand.  This of course excludes then any evaluation of the mare's ability to stand up to the work she is asked to do.

Genetic expression can come from 5 or 12 generations back I have seen it over and over, a pair of lousy hocks from perfect parents and grandparents, a 3/4 TB mare who is a doppelganger of her battlebus Hanoverian grandfather.  This is why when you have a full pedigree to examine you can make some educated guesses. I say guesses because we do not have control over what we get.

I prefer pedigree and a good sound hardy mare but I would not preclude a mare without pedigree if she were the right sort but I would expect I may not get what I think I might get!!!!

Breeding is neither science or art but if you throw luck and a bit of educated guessing into the pot then that is pretty much what breeding is.

I have been breeding for over 30 years and we get what God, the mare, stallion and ancestors decide to give us and we can tweak it a bit and have a duty of care.  The breeding of a foal is a wonderful experience and why shouldn't people have a legacy from their mare? 

As I said in my previous posts I do not believe people deliberately breed "rubbish", I believe that ignorance and lack of knowledge is the main cause. I think everyone on this thread will have a new perspective and debate is a great thing. There will always be fluky horses, mis-shapen horses - some will excel, some won't. There will always be the warmblood rejects flooding into UK and Ireland carrying the dreams of a million teenagers before them and the continentals know this - it is a huge market for them. There will always be "not quites". There is awful wastage in some areas of breeding which frankly is worse than somebody breeding a foal from a not quite perfect favourite mare.

Phew!!!!


----------



## marmalade76 (1 June 2010)

There are plenty of people who breed from rubbish and should know better. 

For example, (this was a few years ago though) I want to a very well known equine college that has an excellent reputation. There was a mare there who was a cast off from a well know stub because she had poor fore leg comformation. She was evented even though they knew she would not stay sound, she broke down and was then bred from. The stallion was on site so there was no coving fee, the foal could be raised for very little cost and any costs were a 'business expence' so did not come out of anyone's personal pocket. They had at least a school horse out of it and when it reached the end of it's days it would have gone to Potter's (in the time that I was at said college, two lorry loads of school horses went to Potter's) and earned a little money back. If they had sold it, they would have done so easily with their reputation.

They bred from this mare because they had nothing to lose, and so it goes on.


----------



## gadetra (1 June 2010)

Irishlife said:



			There will always be fluky horses, mis-shapen horses - some will excel, some won't. There will always be the warmblood rejects flooding into UK and Ireland carrying the dreams of a million teenagers before them and the continentals know this - it is a huge market for them. There will always be "not quites". There is awful wastage in some areas of breeding which frankly is worse than somebody breeding a foal from a not quite perfect favourite mare.

Phew!!!!

Click to expand...

Here here Irishlife!! 
I agree wholeheartedly with you about the continental 'not quites' that are all the rage over here in Irealnd and the U.K.
We exported some of our best bloodlines, as I think any Irish person or breeder will do-for the right price everything is for sale IMO. 
However with a few exceptions (Guidam, Ludiam etc.) it is NOT the same on the continent and they rightly keep teh best to improve their herd. It is a long term plan and one that has definately proven successful. 
However it is very expensive to keep a stallion prospect, compete him etc. so i don't blame Isish breeders entiely for selling ourselves short-literally LOL!!
Sorry rant over ditto everyone else about only breeding from about the confirmationally correct, sane and proven IN THEIR FIELD mares.


----------



## magic104 (1 June 2010)

Most of what I have said has been re-iterated by Irishlife.  As for keeping records well we now have to have our horses passported, how difficult is it to record problems/issues in the passport?  These are held centrally with NED, so again why cant they be kept updated?  

The one thing that has been missed again, what of the responsibility of the stallion owner?  If so many rubbish horses are still being bred from rubbish mares, why are the stallion owners accepting the mares in the first instance?  If a stallion owner does not think the mare can be improved on by their stallion, why except it?  Also while people are willing to buy "rubbish" & pay silly prices (how many times have I seen that), then they will continue to be bred.  If you have no outlet for your substandard foal, then it wont make sense to continue to breed.

On another thought though who is anyone to take away the pleasure that a lot of what is thought of as substandard, conformationally, to the owners of these horses/ponies.  Travellers breed 100's of foals a year, many are looked down on as not being conformationally correct.  Yet many have given years of pleasure to hobby riders, because they are good doers, & temperments that make them much easier to keep then your blood horse.  

A lot of issues hores have, temperment wise is man made, there will be those with quirks that have been passed down, but whose to say in the correct hands, they would be less quirky?  Some of these well bred animals are too sensitive for the average handler/rider.  There is no question that far too many horses/ponies are bred.  I would not have thought that there are many, one mare owners who set out to breed a substandard animal.  What would be the point, even if it is for themselves.  It is not a cheap option, so why would you "choose to breed from rubbish??? ", I think it comes down to what has already been mentioned, a lack of education.  This would then come back to the stallion owner, who in my opinion should turn down a mare that they feel would not suit their stallion, unless they know that their boy can improve on the mare, because he has already proved he can.

I am sure other mare owners have tested the theory, by enquirying after a stallion that they know would not suit their mare, only to find the stallion owner more then willing to accept her.


----------



## micramadam (1 June 2010)

Interesting topic guys. What do you class as a warm blood reject? I live in Holland and have actually seen many Dutch Warm Blood stallions/mares in the flesh so to speak. 
After 18 months of looking at stallions that would suit our Wolfgang mare we made the decision last year to put her in foal to Vivaldi. The result is going to a breed show in July. We have already had people raving over him and he is only 4 weeks old. He was not bred to be sold but as a future dressage horse for my daughter. He maybe homebred but we put a hell of a lot of time and effort in chosing the right stallion to complement the mare. 
There is a huge amount of competition here to breed the best and you wouldn't believe the research that is done. I think that the Dutch Warmblood 'rejects' you are discussing are not from the reputable breeders and are not a true representation of what is available. 
And no we don't keep the best for ourselves. The foal sales start in August and buyers come from all over the world to buy these foals. Some of these foals reach amazing prices which are far out of the reach of the average man in the street. 
There is a saying over here which I believe has some truth to it  - Fokken is gokken - which means breeding is a gamble. You can make the best choice possible (stallion and mare) but you will never produce the perfect horse. 
If horses could breed humans what would they class as rubbish?


----------



## Enfys (1 June 2010)

magic104 said:



			The one thing that has been missed again, what of the responsibility of the stallion owner?  If so many rubbish horses are still being bred from rubbish mares, why are the stallion owners accepting the mares in the first instance?  If a stallion owner does not think the mare can be improved on by their stallion, why except it?  

.
		
Click to expand...

Good point, I hadn't seen that mentioned.

I have a stallion, he doesn't stand to the public, but does serve a few local mares. He hasn't set foot in a showring, but he has good bloodlines with names that have a reputation for producing horses with equable, trainable temperaments. He is correct for his breed standard (but not to the eyes of many British people who are not au fait with the breed), he has thrown fabulous foals for me from Arabians, QH's and Paints.

 He isn't going to produce the next eventing superstar, but he will produce a medium sized horse that can go on to do anything within its' physical and metal capabilities - given the correct training. 

Every year I have people, total strangers, stop outside my fields to look at the foals and the stallion, some make offers for foals (and I have sold a couple like that) others ask to use him, and I have turned down many offers for him, mainly because he is flashy and would make a good rodeo parade or performance horse.  A nicely made mare of a decent size I'll accept, I have also told owners if I don't think he'd compliment their mares and I refuse to breed him to a variety of shetlands or pony mares - you'd be amazed at the the people that ask. 

It is not my business if they are registered or not, he is, and licensed, and DNA'd, foals can be registered if the owners wish. So I do pick and choose who he breeds, his progeny are his advertisement.

I don't for one minute imagine that those I turn away will just go home and give up the idea of breeding, they'll just go and find another stallion to use, if people want to breed, they will.

Magic104 has a valid point indeed, to a point, much of a horses temperament is man made.


----------



## Bearskin (1 June 2010)

Irishlife said:



			Soft tissue injuries 1)- good conformation is essential e.g. short cannon bone shorter ligaments = stronger ligaments everyone knows if you put too much strain on a long lever it will break, whereas a short one will not - simple mechanics. Ligaments, tendons etc perform optimally when conformation is correct. 

)
		
Click to expand...

There has been a study that shows that having long cannon bones does not predispose horses to more injuries.  What is more important in leg comformation and soundness is the length and angle of the pastern and hoof.  If the pastern is too long a greater lever action is exerted when the horse is in motion, making strains and sprains more likely.  If the hoof and pastern are at different angles, ie upright pastern and foot with low heels and long toes, the likelyhood of navicular syndrome is greatly increased.


----------



## Clepottage (1 June 2010)

magic104 said:



			The one thing that has been missed again, what of the responsibility of the stallion owner?  If so many rubbish horses are still being bred from rubbish mares, why are the stallion owners accepting the mares in the first instance?
		
Click to expand...

This is an interesting point. A few years ago I had a rather heated discussion with the owner of a fairly well known (at that time young) stallion whilst at it's grading. arguably said stallion does have excellent bloodlines and has proved to be talented enough but I still couldn't understand why the owners broodmare herd (at this time she only had one stallion and used him on all her mares) consisted of a few warmbloods, a couple of cobs an arab, a clydesdale and at least two clydesdale X's. My problem wasn't so much with the breeds of these mares (although it does strike me as a rather odd selection), but rather that when she showed me pictures of these mares they were the fugliest selection of beasts I've ever seen! Her justification was that her stallion would improve them all - no argument from me there as it would've been hard not to - and they should all make nice family horses. My opinion was (and still is) that in 6 years time when the progeny from these mares have been sold on the only thing a lot of people will notice is the name of the sire and not take into account the mare that they've probably never seen anyway, yes she's been improved upon but how is the purchaser to know that? It cannot be a good advertisment for her stallion. Am I mad in thinking as a stallion owner (which I no longer am) the best advertisment for your stallion is to have, at home, the best foals you can possibly breed?



enfys said:



			Good point, I hadn't seen that mentioned.

I have a stallion, he doesn't stand to the public, but does serve a few local mares. He hasn't set foot in a showring, but he has good bloodlines with names that have a reputation for producing horses with equable, trainable temperaments. He is correct for his breed standard (but not to the eyes of many British people who are not au fait with the breed), he has thrown fabulous foals for me from Arabians, QH's and Paints.

 He isn't going to produce the next eventing superstar, but he will produce a medium sized horse that can go on to do anything within its' physical and metal capabilities - given the correct training. 

Every year I have people, total strangers, stop outside my fields to look at the foals and the stallion, some make offers for foals (and I have sold a couple like that) others ask to use him, and I have turned down many offers for him, mainly because he is flashy and would make a good rodeo parade or performance horse.  A nicely made mare of a decent size I'll accept, I have also told owners if I don't think he'd compliment their mares and I refuse to breed him to a variety of shetlands or pony mares - you'd be amazed at the the people that ask.
		
Click to expand...

This is very refreshing to read Enyfs


----------



## shirleyno2 (1 June 2010)

A very interesting read! 
I have read the above with my breeder hat on and my stallion owner hat on......

"Rubbish" is a dangerous word. I have mares come to stud that do not have any breed papers, not a problem as long as they are good types. They can be anything from shires, welshes, TB's to warmbloods. Every one of my stallions has a super temperament, my motto has always been talent, type and temperament. So to a good competition horse they could/should breed another [!!] but put to an ordinary [?] leisure horse, the mare owner should be breeding one that has the temperament that is also suitable for themselves. I hope that makes sense. Not everyone in GB is looking to breed an Olympic horse!
I also breed from young mares, before they start their ridden careers. Mares that do have pedigrees and have shown potential and are conformationally correct. The ones with a fault are not bred from.

One mans junk is another mans jewels. But let us not forget that Mother Nature must have a sense of humour!


----------



## Irishlife (1 June 2010)

Well said Shirley!!

To recap on a couple of points I made earlier - to the Dutch warmblood breeder, I was more referring to the huge breeding stations that clearly do have not so great horses coming out of their breeding programmes such is the numbers game they play. The marketing machine is such there is a flood of "average" warmblood horses hitting these shores and the UK that come with dreams and not a lot else!, I know in Belgium and Holland there are many successful small breeders e.g. van Erkepom small village great horses in Utah and Tabasco and the sales are legendary. Certainly not damning all warmbloods.

Stallions - where to begin. I remember when I was breeding in the UK a good few years ago now, stallions would normally be to "approved mares only" or concessions would be made for champion broodmares or Grade "A" jumping mares. Does this still happen?  It is easier for someone standing more than one stallion to guide a mare owner towards a more appropriate stallion for their mare but for a single stallion owner from a commercial perspective it is difficult to refuse a mare and standing a stallion unless it is a hobby, is a commercial enterprise and an expensive enterprise too reflected in the stud fees and quite rightly so.  In Ireland it is pretty much considered if a mare through her pedigree is in the main stud book then she is a breeding mare regardless of conformation. Inspections will be starting this year for mares and not before time.

So who would breed from a Grade "A" mare with glaring conformation defects?

The answer is obviously going to be yes in the majority of cases as a serious breeder could not afford to let an opportunity to breed from a 1.40 or 1.50 mare pass by. There again an experienced breeder would do all they could to minimise her faults with a stallion.


----------



## Truly (1 June 2010)

micramadam said:



			Interesting topic guys. What do you class as a warm blood reject? I live in Holland and have actually seen many Dutch Warm Blood stallions/mares in the flesh so to speak. 
After 18 months of looking at stallions that would suit our Wolfgang mare we made the decision last year to put her in foal to Vivaldi. The result is going to a breed show in July. We have already had people raving over him and he is only 4 weeks old. He was not bred to be sold but as a future dressage horse for my daughter. He maybe homebred but we put a hell of a lot of time and effort in chosing the right stallion to complement the mare. 
There is a huge amount of competition here to breed the best and you wouldn't believe the research that is done. I think that the Dutch Warmblood 'rejects' you are discussing are not from the reputable breeders and are not a true representation of what is available. 
And no we don't keep the best for ourselves. The foal sales start in August and buyers come from all over the world to buy these foals. Some of these foals reach amazing prices which are far out of the reach of the average man in the street. 
There is a saying over here which I believe has some truth to it  - Fokken is gokken - which means breeding is a gamble. You can make the best choice possible (stallion and mare) but you will never produce the perfect horse. 
If horses could breed humans what would they class as rubbish?
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure you breed good horses but please face reality.
How many foals are registered with the KWPN each year? How many make it to the sales?
I have personally seen some very bad examples, physically and mentally , that have been liveried with me or I seen at dealers with 100 KWPN in England all imported.
They all had very impressive pedigrees.
Anything decent was over 20k and the rubbish was selling for about 10 -15k
You do breed good horses in Holland.....noone is denying that. But the % of good ones to bad ones is a little different in reality.


----------



## stolensilver (2 June 2010)

Irishlife said:



			So who would breed from a Grade "A" mare with glaring conformation defects?
		
Click to expand...

Slightly OT but just wanted to respond to this. To me if a mare has made it to grade A without breaking down mentally or physically then her conformation works and her soft tissues are top class. 

Instead of thinking about turning her down because her conformation doesn't fit my ideas of what is right I'd study her hard to learn what it was that made her conformation work so well and add it to my mental library of "not pretty but durable" conformation patterns. I'd also be more likely to breed her than less likely because if her soft tissues have overcome extra strains put on them by poor bony angles then she probably carries soft tissues with strength like iron and may have a better chance than a more conformationally perfect mare of producing strong, tough offspring.

My way of thinking is to take the facts first (stayed sound to grade A) and then work out why. I tend to put function before form but adjust my thinking on form to account for the horse that apparently has poor conformation yet that conformation stands up to hard work. Because of that I'd never turn down a mare for breeding who had done well and stayed sound in any chosen sport (grade A SJ, Advanced eventer, GP dressage) no matter how she was put together.


----------



## Clepottage (2 June 2010)

Truly said:



			I'm sure you breed good horses but please face reality.
How many foals are registered with the KWPN each year? How many make it to the sales?
I have personally seen some very bad examples, physically and mentally , that have been liveried with me or I seen at dealers with 100 KWPN in England all imported.
They all had very impressive pedigrees.
Anything decent was over 20k and the rubbish was selling for about 10 -15k
You do breed good horses in Holland.....noone is denying that. But the % of good ones to bad ones is a little different in reality.
		
Click to expand...

I think its important to remember this issue isn't only with the KWPN and Holland, look at all warmbolld studbooks and european (including the UK) countries to see this happening across the board.

And, I think that brings me full circle and right back to the begining of this thread. LOL


----------



## LEC (2 June 2010)

I would just like to add that the quality of horse flesh at all levels from unaff to aff has improved significantly in the 27 years I have been involved in horses. I loathe coloured horses yet they are slowly getting better and saw one that was absolutely smashing (athletic and well put together).
At our PC we were probably the best mounted on cheap but good looking horses but now I will go to PC and the kids are often very well mounted. Eventing I am just drooling sometimes at the quality on offer. At RC I see a lot of rubbish but then they only need to jump 2'0 and their riders are normally hanging round their necks! The ones on classy looking horses just looked overhorsed or nervous. There is a lot of **** out there but on the whole there has been a massive shift in better horses in this country.


----------



## GinnieRedwings (2 June 2010)

brighteyes said:



			Except that there are already more than enough to go round and plenty of others lining up to be scrapped for no other reason than there are no more homes.  They are here, now.  Why have more foals to push them out of the queue?

Most people who breed seem to talk as though there aren't enough horse and ponies to meet demand.  It floors me.
		
Click to expand...

NOooooooo  My absolute pet hate of all pet hates!!! The nice sensible well adjusted and well trained horses around are GOLD DUST and go for gold - whether or not they are talented potential world beaters! 

There are not enough sane lovely WELL TRAINED horses you would have no qualms sitting your 12 year old daughter on to meet demand - that is an absolute falacy. All the horses that don't sell, don't sell because they are not selleable, not because there are not enough people looking for a horse. They are simply unsuitable for most people to own and enjoy - not necessarily through any fault of their own, but the end result is undenyably the "free to a good home" section of the project horse website, because people don't have the guts to do the right thing and have them put down - buck, rear, spin, bite, kick, won't load, won't shoe, won't jump, etc... Simply try and pass the buck to someone else!

Some people, like myself, take the time and effort to attempt to rehabilitate some of them, but sometimes damage done is too deep and unless they went to someone like me, it just wouldn't work. People don't WANT them, because riding is supposed to be their hobby, to enjoy, not get injured or worse everytime they drop their guard.   



Holly831 said:



			So what would you suggest then? That we all stop breeding anything other than potential superstars who, when they don't make the grade are often too fizzy, too big, too fine etc for your everyday home? Who makes the decision on what is to be bred? I for one (and sorry if it offends) am not a TB fan - I love my cob gelding Irish hunter and I would love to breed horses like him. Or would you have the country flooded with WB imports?
		
Click to expand...

Thank you Holly831 for talking sense


----------



## magic104 (2 June 2010)

LEC said:



			I would just like to add that the quality of horse flesh at all levels from unaff to aff has improved significantly in the 27 years I have been involved in horses. I loathe coloured horses yet they are slowly getting better and saw one that was absolutely smashing (athletic and well put together).
At our PC we were probably the best mounted on cheap but good looking horses but now I will go to PC and the kids are often very well mounted. Eventing I am just drooling sometimes at the quality on offer. At RC I see a lot of rubbish but then they only need to jump 2'0 and their riders are normally hanging round their necks! The ones on classy looking horses just looked overhorsed or nervous. There is a lot of **** out there but on the whole there has been a massive shift in better horses in this country.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with that, there has been a lot of improvement & long may it continue.  I dont believe very many go out of their way to breed from rubbish, there is no point.  Just look at the foals being posted on here.


----------

