# What is the maximum level of bute you'd give your retired pony?



## sarahann1 (7 June 2012)

Hello all,

I'm looking for opinions on the maximum level of bute you'd give a retired 14.2hh pony before you get to the point where you think enough is enough and pts?

I'm asking because its looking like my boy is going to be permenantly on bute, I'm just a bit undecided about how much is too much? Obv I'll ask my vets but I'd realy like you're opinions too.

NB in case anyone wonders he's got navicular, prone to lami, arthritis and from previous xrays vets think there is dejeneration in his joints over and above the arthritis but didn't come to a firm conclusion what exactly. He's a happy wee soul just now its just all his ailments seem to be getting the better of him more frequently these days so I want to be fully informed or as much as you can be in these circumstances anyway.

Thanks very much.


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## rockysmum (7 June 2012)

I've had this discussion many times about my 36 year old.  The answer I have come to is, as much as he needs to keep him pain free.  If that destroys his liver, then so what, not being uncaring in that by the way.

They need a quality of life and that means pain free.  Better a couple of years happy than 10 years in pain.

That said my boy isn't on it at all yet, but I have made my plans and decisions ahead of it happening.

He was on it a few years ago in Winter when we were on a very high cold windy yard.  Since we moved down into the valley he doesn't need it.

I have read all the arguments about keeping them moving, but have gone for the pampered pony approach.  He is never allowed to get cold or wet.  He comes in at night all year round.  He wears plenty of rugs in winter and if necessary leg warmers.  And he's a cob 

He was being ridden lightly until last back end and still drags us to the field and gallops round with his friends.


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## ILuvCowparsely (7 June 2012)

sarahann1 said:



			Hello all,

I'm looking for opinions on the maximum level of bute you'd give a retired 14.2hh pony before you get to the point where you think enough is enough and pts?

I'm asking because its looking like my boy is going to be permenantly on bute, I'm just a bit undecided about how much is too much? Obv I'll ask my vets but I'd realy like you're opinions too.

NB in case anyone wonders he's got navicular, prone to lami, arthritis and from previous xrays vets think there is dejeneration in his joints over and above the arthritis but didn't come to a firm conclusion what exactly. He's a happy wee soul just now its just all his ailments seem to be getting the better of him more frequently these days so I want to be fully informed or as much as you can be in these circumstances anyway.

Thanks very much.
		
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 Sorry to hear . I have known horses on 3-4 danilon a day 


  A few questions???


Is he on Joint supplement?? ( my mare was told to be on bute for the rest of her life to arthritis.)
 I put her on flexijoint and she did not need it anymore, its powerful 100% money back guarantee.  look at these H&H reviews of others that tried it

http://equinecare-and-control.weebly.com/a.html

Alternatives you can try :


You could also try acupuncture . 
If your near a equine pool  swimming is good for them.
Flexijoint    (http://www.equimins-online.com/all-products/46-equimins-flexijoint-cartilage-supplement.html) testimonies on their website too
what about no bute
devils claw
cider vinegar
 keep him in  in the winter out the cold
 magnetic boots           (http://equinecare-and-control.weebly.com/recomended-products.html)


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## Noodlebug (7 June 2012)

My old boy had a bute a day sometimes 2 for his knee. At 35yrs it really didn't matter!!


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## ILuvCowparsely (7 June 2012)

My vet says its normally the ailment that finishes off the horse before the bute does.


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## Amymay (7 June 2012)

Leviathan said:



			My vet says its normally the ailment that finishes off the horse before the bute does.
		
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The bute certainly won't.

OP - it would be two a day maximum for me.  But realistically 1 long term.


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## ILuvCowparsely (7 June 2012)

amymay said:



			The bute certainly won't.

OP - it would be two a day maximum for me.  But realistically 1 long term.
		
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The vet was referring to the damage done internally being on long term bute.


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## Amymay (7 June 2012)

Leviathan said:



			The vet was referring to the damage done internally being on long term bute.
		
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I know


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## sarahann1 (7 June 2012)

Thanks for the replies folks.

rockysmum - 36 and on no bute, wow what a dude, give him a cuddle from me!

Leviathan - he is on flexi-joint at the moment, tried cider vinager, it was ming apparently.
I'm looking at magnetic boots too, thanks for that. haven't tried the other supplement

amymay - thanks, do you mind me asking why 1 is your long term limit? 

He's only 19 but I think he had a really hard ticket before he came to me (he's, well, was, great at jumping and I think thats been taken advantage of) now I'm dealing with the outfall.

I know anything could get him beforehand but I'd like to know more if it gets to the point he needs more and more bute to keep him comfortable. 

Thanks again.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (7 June 2012)

If my horse or pony needed bute to stay field sound them Im afraid Id be giving a good summer then PTS before winter.

I have a 21yr old pony who had had a hard life before he came to me and hes still UN-MEDICATED and being a happy hacker/schoolmaster fir flatowrk for someone out on Loan.

If he needed bute to remain field sound then i wouldnt be doing it Im afraid. Im rabidly against giving bute to retired horses.


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## sarahann1 (7 June 2012)

Thanks for such an honest reply Black Beastie this option had crossed my mind.


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## Amymay (7 June 2012)

For me one (with the occasional two) would be my limit because any more than that and you are merely prolonging the life of a chronically lame horse for no benefit other than your own.


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## rubysmum (7 June 2012)

My cut off point was 3 - once my big mare needed that to be comfortable just to be turned out- i called it a day


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## applecart14 (7 June 2012)

My friend had her horse on one bute a day for years (he was over 40 when he was pts).  Like its been said on a previous reply its my understanding that its not that dangerous fed low dose long term, but high dose long term it is and that is accumulative liver damage in which case it could take many years to destroy the liver.


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## alsiola (7 June 2012)

amymay said:



			For me one (with the occasional two) would be my limit because any more than that and you are merely prolonging the life of a chronically lame horse for no benefit other than your own.
		
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When you are 80 years old and need to take 8 ibuprofen to ease the pain in whatever joint is hurting you then do you want one of us to finish you off because that's too many pills?


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## smellsofhorse (8 June 2012)

Alsiola
Yes I would
I wish suicide was legal in this country.
I've seen far too many ill and old people who wish their life would come to an end


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## rockysmum (8 June 2012)

alsiola said:



			When you are 80 years old and need to take 8 ibuprofen to ease the pain in whatever joint is hurting you then do you want one of us to finish you off because that's too many pills?
		
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That would depend on my quality of life.  If I had a nice home, good food, friends and family and the pills made me feel good enough to go for a jog around the garden, then no I wouldn't want finishing off.

If the pills were barely enough for me to hobble around the house.  If my friends and family no longer wanted me, I lived in a hovel with poor food and care, then probably yes.


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## EstherYoung (8 June 2012)

My 26yo is on a low dose of bute for mild arthritis. He's not actually lame as such without it on a day to day basis, but without it he does have a limited range of movement in his hocks and gets sore/loses power around the extremes of flexion. The bute means that he can hold his back legs up for the farrier to trim him and it means he can roll right over and get himself up.

I don't think you can have a number of bute in your head as 'the line' because it depends on why you're giving the bute, what the effect of the bute is, and what the horse's quality of life is. 

Bute has long term cumulative anti inflammatory qualities which is why it's so good for arthritic type conditions and why it has worked so well for my chap. However, in my chap's case, because we are not using it only for pain relief, additional bute will not necessarily have the desired effect, so we're not in a situation where I can up the bute if/when he deteriorates.

It all comes down to quality of life at the end of the day xxx


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## Amymay (8 June 2012)

alsiola said:



			When you are 80 years old and need to take 8 ibuprofen to ease the pain in whatever joint is hurting you then do you want one of us to finish you off because that's too many pills?
		
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Ridiculous


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## Amymay (8 June 2012)

EstherYoung said:



			Bute has long term cumulative anti inflammatory qualities which is why it's so good for arthritic type conditions and why it has worked so well for my chap. However, in my chap's case, because we are not using it only for pain relief, additional bute will not necessarily have the desired effect, so we're not in a situation where I can up the bute if/when he deteriorates.

It all comes down to quality of life at the end of the day xxx
		
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And of course, this is the most sensible reply on the whole thread.

I absolutely agree with Esther.


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## sarahann1 (8 June 2012)

Thank you to those of you who have taken the time to reply with reasoned opinions, helps me a great deal and give me comfort that I'm not being unrealistic about this.


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## Cocorules (8 June 2012)

My pony is on bute long term and is retired. She is happy in herself and never looks unhappy or dejected. I have owned her her whole life and know her well. For me it is not the number of bute just whether she is happy. I feel sure I will know when it is her time from how she is.


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## Penny Less (8 June 2012)

Erm, being pedantic, suicide is not illegal that I am aware of ?


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## rockysmum (8 June 2012)

alma said:



			Erm, being pedantic, suicide is not illegal that I am aware of ?
		
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Well I certainly haven't heard of anyone who accomplished it being prosecuted.


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## RolyPolyPony (8 June 2012)

I would personally never keep a horse on bute long term just to keep it field sound.  If it were my pony i would give it a nice last summer than think about the PTS option before winter set in.  Yes it's not nice to think about but at the end of the day, I wouldnt want to be drugged up on pain relief just to be able to live without pain (if it was legal in this country, I would want to be 'PTS'!)


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## muckingoutmum (8 June 2012)

My 38 yr old pony had 1 danilon a day for the last two and a half years of her life.  It wasn't to "keep her sound" but just meant that she was happy and comfortable enough to enjoy her last years wandering around the field with the other horses.  I don't think it did her any harm at all at this stage.  If she had had a poor quality of life it would not have been the right answer, but it was just age catching up with her so I wanted to keep her pain free.


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## ILuvCowparsely (8 June 2012)

alsiola said:



			When you are 80 years old and need to take 8 ibuprofen to ease the pain in whatever joint is hurting you then do you want one of us to finish you off because that's too many pills?
		
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^ 5   this


 If You get cronic back pain is 1 or 2 measly ibuprofen all you will take??

 or will you take voltravol diazipan  and co-codamol too??

 if you get a sever Migraine  do you just take panadol  and put up with the pain??? or would you opt for  Imigran??.


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## ILuvCowparsely (8 June 2012)

amymay said:



			For me one (with the occasional two) would be my limit because any more than that and you are merely prolonging the life of a chronically lame horse for no benefit other than your own.
		
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But is that not the reason  for giving bute to prolong the life by reducing inflammation and pain?


  How can you state its for the humans benefit and not the horses
  If the horse is alive and enjoying life on 2 or 3 bute  who are we to snuff out a life????.

 If the horse on bute will enjoy a retirement and the bute will not cause the lameness to get worse, then I say go ahead.

 If like a tendon the horses medical problems would get worst for not feeling the pain and run round, that is another story  then I say no bute .



No one wants horses on high doses of bute for no reason  but if the quality of life improves then I can justify the increase dose.


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## applecart14 (9 June 2012)

My vet said that if my horse's hocks were paining him (has spavin) then give him bute.  He left me a huge supply.  His idea is that I had two choices: I could retire him and not ride him or compete him anymore and chuck him out in a field and OR if he was stiff or his coffin joints played him up I could give him a couple of bute prior to a jumping class and he would be comfortable and pain free.  This is what I do for myself with my slipped disc to enable me to ride and compete, so I don't see the big deal about doing this with my horse and to have the complete backing of my vet is brilliant.

Now he has fused the hocks with ethanol so the bute isn't necessary. However his coffin joint arthritis has started causing him the odd problem so again I called the vet out and he said if he's sore one day them give him bute for a couple of days and take him out, and enjoy him.  Not to everyone's taste but if my horse is happy and continues to bound onto the trailer in anticipation of a show then I will continue to follow my vets advice and bute him if and when his joints play up which hopefully won't be for a few months or more as he is sound now.

I'd have no hesitation in giving my horse two or three bute a day in retirement to keep him comfortable.  If we can do that for ourselves as humans why not our animals too?  How can people say its not right?


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## Cinnamontoast (9 June 2012)

I went to a lecture at the RVC this week where one vet said no more than two a day.


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## Boulty (9 June 2012)

I'm currently trying to make this decision for my 17 yr old 14.2 pony. He's had hock arthritis since he was 12 and previously got to a stage where he was happy to do whatever on 1/2 a bute a day but then I went away to uni, loaned him out to a few different people, loaner felt he was sound without the bute but he then had a persistent problem with picking a hind leg up that vet never got to bottom of, which seemed to periodically clear up then start again. Took him back a few months ago, had a call to say he'd been stuck down in the field (was up by time I got there), had a few different vets scratch their heads over him before his original vet decided it was prob just all connected to his arthritis as opposed to some weird, mystical thing that nobody could get to the bottom of, buted him up to the eyeballs and after a month or so improvement with leg. On vet's advice started riding in walk again and dropped bute to one a day but went lame within a few weeks so upped bute again and retired. Now in a bit of a dilemma as I've a pony who is now on 2 bute a day to keep him sound (or as close to it as he can get) as well as synequin. I do not feel it is fair to ride him on this dose (although as things stand he would probably be sound enough for a potter at least if I did feel that way inclined - but I know he won't potter if I take him out alone and who the heck wants to be tagging along for boring walks round the block?) and if this is truly the dose he needs to keep sound now then that scares me a little as I wouldn't want him on any more than that long term (can't say I'm thrilled at this dose). Sure he can "get by" without if "getting by" means that he can't have one of his feet picked out or trimmed and that he struggles to get up sometimes but yep he'd still be able to potter round the field grazing (no doubt would still give running round like a loon a go too!). Still trying to tinker with his dose at the minute to see if I can get it any lower but if I can't then I can't. Were he to require more than this then I think I'm going to have a serious chat with my vet (gonna be having one of them anyway if he has to stay on current dose)


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## laurapru (10 June 2012)

I completely feel for you, I have just had my bog boy pts following a year saga with annular ligament syndrome (both fore legs), tear in ddft (right), pocket of fluid in left fore, arthritic changes in right fore coffin/fetlock. All had been medicated and operated on. Box rest/controlled exercise etc etc and he managed to tear tendon again - god knows how - he didn't go anywhere?! Anyway I based my decision on that he wouldn't be field sound and if he did get there he would have to be on long term bute to just be able to potter around a field. I felt that this would strip him from his quality of life and prevent him from 'being a horse'. I think people keep their animals going because they cannot bare to be without them and I have to say I did contemplate doing all of the above just so i didn't have to loose my pride and joy. 
As some have stated, you get to the point where you know your own horse, I had spent the last year tending to his every needs (with great pride and pleasure - i may add) and I had noticed that when he went significantly lame again he was depressed being in his box all day, he wasnt the friendly chap he always was nickering at me to hurry up with his tea!
There is no right or wrong answer to this question and it has to be something that you have to feel inside, you have to be honest and blunt with yourself and ask yourself your reasons for putting him on bute indefinately? I hated having the power to decide the fate of another living creature, but I owed my boy that much to let him go when I did. 
I am sure the decision you make will be the right for you both, as afterall it will be made with great love - best of luck x


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## sarahann1 (11 June 2012)

Thank you all so much for sharing your stories and offering advice, I really do appreciate it.


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## Chicolatino (12 June 2012)

Reading all replies with great interest too. My 21 year old was recently diagnosed with ems and having difficulty keeping him sound and laminitis free. Alos suffers from navicular so suppose lucky to have still been competing till last year. He's on half in morning half at night. I always said that when it came to it i would never let him live out the rest of his days in a box so was happy that he is able to at least go out to sandschool during the day. would like him to be comfortable and if it comes to the point when he's not then i think i will know. Hope that he will let me know! Had him 16 years so like to think its the last thing i could do for him. Its not easy tho.


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## applecart14 (14 June 2012)

If bute sachets were instead made into tablets and a small and as cheap an paracetamol or aspirin I don't think any of us would be having this debate.  I don't think we'd even give it a second thought.  But its only that a 'sachet of bute' costs so much and is so 'large' looking that it makes us start thinking.

Again, its like the wormer scenario.  They are made safe in case some idiot gives ten instead of two to their horse in one go.  I think the safety range before the horse falls ill is something like five x original dose and even then it wouldn't die, it would just get colic or something.  I would have thought the margin of error wouldbe something like that too with bute.


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## sarahann1 (14 June 2012)

applecart14 said:



			If bute sachets were instead made into tablets and a small and as cheap an paracetamol or aspirin I don't think any of us would be having this debate.  I don't think we'd even give it a second thought.  But its only that a 'sachet of bute' costs so much and is so 'large' looking that it makes us start thinking.
		
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No, thats really, really, not the reason I'm asking this question. Bute isn't expensive, about 70p a sachet, I'm willing to pay that and more. I'm thinking because I care deeply about my pony and I want him to be happy and comfortable to the end. My worry is I give him so much bute I start to miss the bigger picture of it being time to do the right thing.

With any drug there has to be a safe maximum sustainable dose for long term use surely? I'll obv be talking about that with my vet.

Thanks again to all of you who have shared your thoughts and experiences. Sending good vibes to all of you who have been or are in a similar position.


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## katrid16 (14 June 2012)

rockysmum said:



			I've had this discussion many times about my 36 year old.  The answer I have come to is, as much as he needs to keep him pain free.  If that destroys his liver, then so what, not being uncaring in that by the way.

They need a quality of life and that means pain free.  Better a couple of years happy than 10 years in pain.

That said my boy isn't on it at all yet, but I have made my plans and decisions ahead of it happening.

He was on it a few years ago in Winter when we were on a very high cold windy yard.  Since we moved down into the valley he doesn't need it.

I have read all the arguments about keeping them moving, but have gone for the pampered pony approach.  He is never allowed to get cold or wet.  He comes in at night all year round.  He wears plenty of rugs in winter and if necessary leg warmers.  And he's a cob 

He was being ridden lightly until last back end and still drags us to the field and gallops round with his friends.
		
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I agree totally with this there is lots of pros and cons and people arguing about damaging the liver but if he is i that much pain why not the other opotion would be to pts an by the time his liver is rotted he would be dead anyway as it takes a long time - I know a old hunter that was hunted twice a week on 4 bute a day and lived happily to a ripe old age !


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## sarahann1 (14 June 2012)

I've just done some proper research using peer-review papers and all say 4gms is the maximum does, so 4 sachets it is then assuming nothing else comes up in the long term.

One I found which also suggests any more than this is not worth it:

"In particular, our results would suggest that there is no benefit in administering phenylbutazone at dosages higher than 4.4 mg/kg/d, IV, in horses with navicular syndrome." (Helen H. Hu, et. al 2005)

Helen, H. Hu. et al. 2005. Evaluation of the analgesic effects of phenylbutazone administered at a high or low dosage in horses with chronic lameness. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association. 226(3) pp.414-417

The full report is available freely online if anyone wants to read it. http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/pdf/10.2460/javma.2005.226.414


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## applecart14 (15 June 2012)

sarahann1 said:



			No, thats really, really, not the reason I'm asking this question. Bute isn't expensive, about 70p a sachet, I'm willing to pay that and more. I'm thinking because I care deeply about my pony and I want him to be happy and comfortable to the end. My worry is I give him so much bute I start to miss the bigger picture of it being time to do the right thing.
		
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Its okay hun it wasn't a criticism, it was just that you have to take into account the extra cost.  Say if your horse needed two sachets, that's £1.40 a day, that's £9.80 a week, that's over £509 a year!!!  3 sachets a day would be £766 a year.  Its a lot of extra money to find when owning a horse is so very expensive anyway.  Of course if it were my horse I would find the extra money too.  I know the worry is about long term effects but I really wouldn't worry to much about that.  I think the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.


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## laurapru (16 June 2012)

Hiya, this post has been playing on my mind. 
I am sure you have tried to exhaust all avenues, but is there a supplement you could give other than bute, ie devils claw synequin. Something that makes his life a little bit more comfortable. I know this doesn't answer your question as such but I have read that these are very good for easing joints etc 
Just thought I would mention x


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## sarahann1 (17 June 2012)

Thanks for the suggestion Laurapru I've not heard of synequin I'll look it up. He's already on flexijoint from equimins.


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## hairycob (17 June 2012)

Even the rescue charities have limit at which they decide to call it a day. I went to a talk on the older horse given by a Vet from a major rescue charity - if I remember correctly  once a pony needs 2 a day maintenance dose (4 for a larger horse) they consider it time to call it a day. Over this for a short term crisis is ok, but not for maintenance. This was because when a pony/horse needs this level of dose you are usually looking at multiple issues that often have conflicting management needs and keeping the right balance for the animals welfare is getting hard if not impossible.


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## rockysmum (17 June 2012)

hairycob said:



			Even the rescue charities have limit at which they decide to call it a day. I went to a talk on the older horse given by a Vet from a major rescue charity - if I remember correctly  once a pony needs 2 a day maintenance dose (4 for a larger horse) they consider it time to call it a day. Over this for a short term crisis is ok, but not for maintenance. This was because when a pony/horse needs this level of dose you are usually looking at multiple issues that often have conflicting management needs and keeping the right balance for the animals welfare is getting hard if not impossible.
		
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And at some point the cost has to become a factor.  I just bought 100 bute for about 99 pounds.  Just using it for the farriers visit and other bits and bobs it will last me a year or two.  At 4 a day I would be buying over a box a month   Not saying mine aren't worth it, but with three to keep it would become a burden


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