# Business rates for Equestrian businesses to treble in April 2017



## anoif (30 November 2016)

Business rates are changing from April 2017 . 

I run a predominately DIY Livery Yard in West Berks, we have 40 stables and work on a low profit margin , bums on seats turn over basis .

 Government has offered small business relief to businesses rated at £12,000 or below, but the reality is they have trebled Yards rateable values so hardly anyone will fall under the threshold.

 The Rating Valuation Office have trebled my rateable value, we were previously rated at £12,500 they have applied a rateable Value of £34,250 to my Yard as from 2017. 

I have been in touch with Valuation Office and my local Council and they have confirmed that these laws will be enforced as from next year.

My clients cant absorb an increase of these proportions 

Has anyone else investigated this?


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## popsdosh (30 November 2016)

I think you got off quite lightly with your change of rateable value . I guess it should be nearer £45k.
If it was me I would not be appealing.


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## Suechoccy (30 November 2016)

Reading the OP's post and the sole reply so far, is the norm that business rates work out at £1000 per year per livery (stable)?  If so that's £20 a week to be found per livery. Or to be found some other way. Big ask. No wonder businesses are going under. Very unfair.


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## popsdosh (30 November 2016)

Suechoccy said:



			Reading the OP's post and the sole reply so far, is the norm that business rates work out at £1000 per year per livery (stable)?  If so that's £20 a week to be found per livery. Or to be found some other way. Big ask. No wonder businesses are going under. Very unfair.
		
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No ,business rates valuations are arrived at as equivalent to an open market rent for the establishment.
Although the valuation is £34,500 a year this is not the business rates level.
This is arrived at by multiplying the valuation by £0.484  so in the above example the rates would be £16,698 or £ 417.45 per box per annum a little over £8 box/week

Sorry I dont think its unfair every other business has to pay on the same principle. Where it is unfair is the number of small yards operating under the radar so these bigger yards cannot compete with them, it should be a level playing field.


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## anoif (1 December 2016)

popsdosh said:



			No ,business rates valuations are arrived at as equivalent to an open market rent for the establishment.
Although the valuation is £34,500 a year this is not the business rates level.
This is arrived at by multiplying the valuation by £0.484  so in the above example the rates would be £16,698 or £ 417.45 per box per annum a little over £8 box/week

Sorry I dont think its unfair every other business has to pay on the same principle. Where it is unfair is the number of small yards operating under the radar so these bigger yards cannot compete with them, it should be a level playing field.
		
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Its a £64 per month increase per unit ,I don't charge my liveries for storage ,and use 13 of boxes as stores for DIYs, so its an increase of £64 per month per rentable stable. Pretty unaffordable increase for my customers ,who are on a tight budget.


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## popsdosh (1 December 2016)

anoif said:



			Its a £64 per month increase per unit ,I don't charge my liveries for storage ,and use 13 of boxes as stores for DIYs, so its an increase of £64 per month per rentable stable. Pretty unaffordable increase for my customers ,who are on a tight budget.
		
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Just enlighten me as to why you should be treated differently to any other livery yard! Maybe we should all be helping providing social housing for horses! If the figures dont stack up they either pay or move on. I still think they have been lenient with your valuation . On the open market most yards will achieve a rent of £25/box/week with modest facilities which would make your rateable value nearer £52K
 Your maths are not great as working on your figures its an increase of £32 box used a month they may be empty boxes to you but are still chargeable by the the Valuation office . Maybe the biggest shock to you is the loss of rate relief because your business is bigger than those deemed to need it im sorry thats a fact of life and when budgeting should have been allowed for The small business relief was put in place to help a problem it can in theory be taken away at any time. I guess your liveries dont begrudge the proportion of their other shopping bills that go towards paying business rates!


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## anoif (1 December 2016)

I have just been onto Gov.website and seen that much bigger yards than mine have been rated at £3,700 for 2017. Apparently I am not being treated the same,and some have indoor arenas which we don't .I agree if it were a fair brush stroke across the board and all yards had been rated fairly then it is a competitive market . Out of interest do you run a yard ?


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## Goldenstar (1 December 2016)

Horse owners going to have to find more money it's that simple things are only going to get worse livery prices are going to contract and prices are going to rise .


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## fourshiresrambler (2 December 2016)

It's things like this that make you realise just why so many small businesses are struggling, it's not just equine businesses too, I know people with small businesses that have had to pack up their shops etc and work from home. It's such a shame, I always try to support smaller local businesses.


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## tristar (2 December 2016)

horse establishments should be zero rated and horses classified a agricultural animals.


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## be positive (2 December 2016)

tristar said:



			horse establishments should be zero rated and horses classified a agricultural animals.
		
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Why should horse owners get their hobby subsidised, horses are not an agricultural animal, except for the few that are and will already be exempt from business rates/ vat, as the owner of a small yard it would be great to be able to claim back vat/ pay no rates/ reduced utility bills, etc but in reality why should my liveries be able to have their horses at a reduced cost when it is something they choose to spend their money on, do for fun, it has no link to food production and benefits no one other than themselves.

I do think Riding schools should be treated differently as they do offer a service to so many people and I know how many are crippled by business rates, a small RS near me closed when they were told the rates would be £35k a year, I don't think she was turning over much more than that running a tiny RS with only a few ponies plus some liveries but they rated her barn/ outdoor arena by the square foot and there was nothing she could do to cut back short of demolishing the barn, she closed down and sold up.


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## tristar (2 December 2016)

well  for one thing it benefits you, the farrier, the vet , the back person the tack shop the feed person,the horse breeders, the show organizers, the trailer manufacturers, the 4x4 makers, the stable mat makers, the stable builders, the arena builders, the instructors, people keeping horses  in one way and another is big industry, whether they are commercial or personal

many other countries rate horses as agri business to the benefit of the citizens


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## ycbm (2 December 2016)

tristar said:



			horse establishments should be zero rated and horses classified a agricultural animals.
		
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I'm not sure why you  think I should pay more on my domestic rates or more in shops in town  so that someone can keep a horse at livery for less money?  Horses are a luxury, not a necessity.


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## ycbm (2 December 2016)

tristar said:



			well  for one thing it benefits you, the farrier, the vet , the back person the tack shop the feed person,the horse breeders, the show organizers, the trailer manufacturers, the 4x4 makers, the stable mat makers, the stable builders, the arena builders, the instructors, people keeping horses  in one way and another is big industry, whether they are commercial or personal

many other countries rate horses as agri business to the benefit of the citizens
		
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It also DIS advantages every other person and business that has to pay higher rates to make up the shortfall.  You could make exactly the same claim for any business sector.

I'd like to see the cost benefit analysis for France or Germany if you have it?


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## popsdosh (2 December 2016)

tristar said:



			well  for one thing it benefits you, the farrier, the vet , the back person the tack shop the feed person,the horse breeders, the show organizers, the trailer manufacturers, the 4x4 makers, the stable mat makers, the stable builders, the arena builders, the instructors, people keeping horses  in one way and another is big industry, whether they are commercial or personal

many other countries rate horses as agri business to the benefit of the citizens
		
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No, other countries treat horses as agri because they eat them. However they still pay local taxes  as we do business rates.
I agree with you YCBM why should peoples hobbies be financed by others paying their business rates and council tax.
Nearly all the people listed in your list would also be paying out more to make up the shortfall as they will be paying business rates! LOL


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## tristar (2 December 2016)

, i`m entitled to my opinion which is horse should be agri animals.

other countries are for the people who live there, its about their quality of life, other countries don`t go under they`ve got the brains to organize things to the benefit of  all the people who live there, some things can`t be evaluated by cost benefit analysis, quality of life.

you would`nt be paying out more you might be paying out less, but then to appreciate the possibilities of that one would need an open mind and some true business sense, an ability to see a much bigger picture.

and as for the`laugh out loud` bit, its me that doing that now, at the missed opportunity gb has had to lead in europe in the horse business and missed out big time, how very short sighted


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## popsdosh (2 December 2016)

tristar said:



			, i`m entitled to my opinion which is horse should be agri animals.

other countries are for the people who live there, its about their quality of life, other countries don`t go under they`ve got the brains to organize things to the benefit of  all the people who live there, some things can`t be evaluated by cost benefit analysis, quality of life.

you would`nt be paying out more you might be paying out less, but then to appreciate the possibilities of that one would need an open mind and some true business sense, an ability to see a much bigger picture.

and as for the`laugh out loud` bit, its me that doing that now, at the missed opportunity gb has had to lead in europe in the horse business and missed out big time, how very short sighted
		
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Oh please go and live in france and see how much tax and social security you have to pay! The states see if you can afford health care. Germany ,Good luck!
You wont see the same level of accessible horse ownership in any of those countries!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (2 December 2016)

anoif said:



			Its a £64 per month increase per unit ,I don't charge my liveries for storage ,and use 13 of boxes as stores for DIYs, so its an increase of £64 per month per rentable stable. Pretty unaffordable increase for my customers ,who are on a tight budget.
		
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A little yard i was at knocked down some stables to form a shed, which reduced the rates.
The racing yards in Newmarket are being re asessed , so many will go out of business ........... not sure who is benefiting from this massive hike in income for the UK government.


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## tristar (2 December 2016)

popsdosh why don`t you go and live there? you might find out then how wrong you are, then you might know what you are talking about.

but then if you  stay in england you can see how much tax and ridiculous rates you can pay, please stay there and be miserable and don`t spoil another  country.

what justification can there be for tripling someones rates as op says is happening


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## Exploding Chestnuts (2 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			I'm not sure why you  think I should pay more on my domestic rates or more in shops in town  so that someone can keep a horse at livery for less money?  Horses are a luxury, not a necessity.
		
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That is true, however they are also one of the largest industries in the UK, so by strangling the industry the Govt is killing off small businesses. I do not think that is a good idea, and no way will the small businesses in towns have their rates reduced by 50% due to extra payment by horse businesses.
The current system is not equable, I used to pay huge rates on a shop which had a tiny turnover, due to its proximity to the railway station though this was of no benefit to me. However, to suddenly impose this is frankly outrageous. Why don't they pursue Amazon and all the big chains who have out of town "sheds", purely and simply to avoid rates in cities. Some businesses require more space than others, and really we could end  up reducing stabling size to the detriment of welfare.
If a significant reduction in horse ownership is caused by these rates, who, in the long term will benefit?


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## ycbm (2 December 2016)

Bonkers2 said:



			That is true, however they are also one of the largest industries in the UK,
		
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I don't think so. I can't find horse related business listed separately anywhere, and whatever sector they lump it into doesn't come in the top ten in the UK. Can you point me to where you get this from?


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## skint1 (2 December 2016)

I think this is just another nail in the coffin for a lot of ordinary people being able to afford to have a horse, I don't think it will create a level playing field in any way at all.  I don't know what will happen to all the horses owned by ordinary people and all the professionals who provide services to them when we are all finally priced out of the market, but I am sure someone will figure that out when it happens.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (3 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			I don't think so. I can't find horse related business listed separately anywhere, and whatever sector they lump it into doesn't come in the top ten in the UK. Can you point me to where you get this from?
		
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http://www.beta-uk.org/pages/industry-information/equestrian-trade-news.php
and
http://www.thetba.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Economic-Impact-Study.pdf


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## popsdosh (3 December 2016)

Bonkers2 said:



			That is true, however they are also one of the largest industries in the UK, so by strangling the industry the Govt is killing off small businesses. I do not think that is a good idea, and no way will the small businesses in towns have their rates reduced by 50% due to extra payment by horse businesses.
The current system is not equable, I used to pay huge rates on a shop which had a tiny turnover, due to its proximity to the railway station though this was of no benefit to me. However, to suddenly impose this is frankly outrageous. Why don't they pursue Amazon and all the big chains who have out of town "sheds", purely and simply to avoid rates in cities. Some businesses require more space than others, and really we could end  up reducing stabling size to the detriment of welfare.
If a significant reduction in horse ownership is caused by these rates, who, in the long term will benefit?
		
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As I see it this is one example and we dont know all the circumstances.  I suspect looking at the figures they have been getting off lightly. These reassessments happen every 5 years and cover all businesses. You cannot assume all equine businesses are suffering the same hike in valuations based on one example and there not . Having had a quick look most around here have stood still or had a small increase and those have been ones that actually had improved their facilities. We can all get excited if we take the headline at face value.


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## popsdosh (3 December 2016)

tristar said:



			popsdosh why don`t you go and live there? you might find out then how wrong you are, then you might know what you are talking about.

but then if you  stay in england you can see how much tax and ridiculous rates you can pay, please stay there and be miserable and don`t spoil another  country.

what justification can there be for tripling someones rates as op says is happening
		
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Im going by what people have told me who have done it, most have come back relatively quickly every country has its ridiculous taxes Britain is better than a lot. Oh dear why make it personal? shows a certain desperation.

As for the tripling of rateable value that is in no way the norm as others would have been screaming from the rooftops ages ago ,we havent heard all the circumstances that led to it. I certainly cant find any examples close to me.


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## Goldenstar (3 December 2016)

tristar said:



			horse establishments should be zero rated and horses classified a agricultural animals.
		
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No they are not agricultural animals they are a sporting animal .
The best way forward would be to have a category for sport premises that allows for the large space needed but low return many of these businesses generate .
It's a larger question than horses small business is being squeezed in market towns because of the crazy rates .
To calculate rates on the floor area a buisiness uses is fundamentally unfair it would be much better to calculate it in a way that linked to how much money the business is making .
Rates will begin to seriously impact the growth of small business very shortly .k


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## ycbm (3 December 2016)

Bonkers2 said:



http://www.beta-uk.org/pages/industry-information/equestrian-trade-news.php
and
http://www.thetba.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Economic-Impact-Study.pdf

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One of those pointers is to a trade magazine. The other says that the racing TB industry in this country contributes 281 million and employs ten thousand people. Though  I don't see any racing stables protesting that a massive rates hike this year is going to put them out of business?

Either way, by economic contribution or employment, the horse industry isn't one of the largest industries in the UK I'm afraid, and don't have any real power to press for more favourable treatment on rates.


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## ycbm (3 December 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			To calculate rates on the floor area a buisiness uses is fundamentally unfair it would be much better to calculate it in a way that linked to how much money the business is making .
Rates will begin to seriously impact the growth of small business very shortly .k
		
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I've no idea how they do arenas or indoor schools, but that's exactly what popsdosh has described for stables.

The OP, it seems to me, has options to charge her customers a sensible rate for the use of two stables, putt horses in the stables instead of stuff, or remove the stables being used as sheds.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (3 December 2016)

popsdosh said:



			As I see it this is one example and we dont know all the circumstances.  I suspect looking at the figures they have been getting off lightly. These reassessments happen every 5 years and cover all businesses. You cannot assume all equine businesses are suffering the same hike in valuations based on one example and there not . Having had a quick look most around here have stood still or had a small increase and those have been ones that actually had improved their facilities. We can all get excited if we take the headline at face value.
		
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The Racing Post had an article about the effect in Newmarket, where the whole economy is related to the industry ......... with World Class facilities, and personnel, some yards are facing,  across the board  a 53% increases in rates, and of the businesses in Newmarket, 500 [!] are considered to be "marginal businesses". 
Stuart William rates are doubled, to £64K,  he also pays a fee per horse to Jockey Club for use of the training grounds, which are expensive to maintain, plus rent etc etc. Yes horse ownership is a luxury for some people, for others it is their business.
Racecourses are facing a 50% increase, so we can look forward to more price hikes there. Stabling has to be provided for horses, but are left empty on non race days. There is little else they can be used to increase their income.
How is  all this extra income to be spent? Certainly not on providing an infrastructure for horse owners. More likely for car owners:  by the way, cars are a luxury item too!


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## Goldenstar (3 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			I don't think so. I can't find horse related business listed separately anywhere, and whatever sector they lump it into doesn't come in the top ten in the UK. Can you point me to where you get this from?
		
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It's third in rural areas .
Agriculture tourism horses .


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## Exploding Chestnuts (3 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			I've no idea how they do arenas or indoor schools, but that's exactly what popsdosh has described for stables.

The OP, it seems to me, has options to charge her customers a sensible rate for the use of two stables, putt horses in the stables instead of stuff, or remove the stables being used as sheds.
		
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But it is not fair to charge on the facilities rather than per horse, if facilities are  unused, they are not creating cost to the ratepayer. If you want an example of how unfair rating systems have historically altered images, the window tax 1696-1851 led to bricking up of windows [some of these remain to this day], the Roof Tax [lots of fine houses demolished in the 1950/60's or roofs just removed.


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## Goldenstar (3 December 2016)

Btw this issue is already filtering through to other private sport facilities .
One near here has closed pts swinning pool due the double whammy of fuel costs and rates .


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## Goldenstar (3 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			I've no idea how they do arenas or indoor schools, but that's exactly what popsdosh has described for stables.

The OP, it seems to me, has options to charge her customers a sensible rate for the use of two stables, putt horses in the stables instead of stuff, or remove the stables being used as sheds.
		
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They calculate indoor schools and arenas just like a shop or factory floor .


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## D66 (3 December 2016)

Bonkers2 said:



			But it is not fair to charge on the facilities rather than per horse, if facilities are  unused, they are not creating cost to the ratepayer. If you want an example of how unfair rating systems have historically altered images, the window tax 1696-1851 led to bricking up of windows [some of these remain to this day], the Roof Tax [lots of fine houses demolished in the 1950/60's] or roofs just removed to reduce overheads. And of course, the incredible Wallpaper Tax!
There is no benefit to anyone except the accountant: a person who only has a job due to money generated by businesses, large and small.
		
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It is entirely fair that rates are used on unused facilities.  If you buy a 10 bedroom house you would not expect to only pay the same as a one bed because you live on your own.
Q How are rates on Golf courses assessed?


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## Exploding Chestnuts (3 December 2016)

D66 said:



			It is entirely fair that rates are used on unused facilities.  If you buy a 10 bedroom house you would not expect to only pay the same as a one bed because you live on your own.
Q How are rates on Golf courses assessed?
		
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I don't know, is it relevant? Private Golf Clubs are a social facility, but in Scotland there are numerous public courses with no clubhouse as such,  I would assume one pays a lot more "per hole" than the other.
I get a reduction in rates because I live on my own, thus reflecting my "usage". However the level of "rateable value" is heavily skewed, in my case I am well "up" the scale, yet I have a small one bed flat, it could not be much smaller.
The Rate Collector is the Local Authority who are charged with providing certain services, it is in their interest therefore to jam more people in to a small area:  where I live there are now twice as many people living in a circle of 100 metres diameter around my flat than there were twenty years ago, yet the facilities have not been upgraded or improved or maintained.


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## tristar (3 December 2016)

sorry popsdosh i was only responding to your post about sending me to live there.

but horses are agri animals in countries where they are organised enough to have national studs and land is used for horse breeding on a scale not seen in england, ie. french national studs, stands stallions all over france for breeders to use in their area, and all the continental studs are very present to supply semen and embryo transfer is normal on even smaller studs they have their own lab.


but exactly who is the person that decides to triple someones rates and actually put people out of business? do they realize the consequences of their actions? do they have any idea they are destroying peoples lives? and what exactly are they going to do with the money? it sounds like they are unaccountable or maybe they have no conception of how it would feel if it was done to them, or perhaps they are just plain thick.

all the  services like farriers you say will have to pay more rates, may not have to, if they keep on putting up rates and folk can`t afford horses, they won`t be paying any rates they`ll be out of business, if horses were agri and rates not paid on stables it would expand the whole thing, everyone would have more diposable income, money in peoples pockets where it belongs.

they could make up the short fall, if it really exists, from areas where there is wastage at present

it seems to  me the english government has never and will never give support to the horse industry, because they have not got the brains to see what a money maker it could have been for them, and lets forget heritage they would need a dictionary for that one


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## popsdosh (3 December 2016)

This probably hasnt come out well but this is the breakdown of valuation for an equestrian centre near me. You will see that all parts of the business are rated at their own values! This one has gone up from circa 60k however considerable facilities including boxes and another outdoor school have been put in since the last valuation. People need to be aware that all the time commercial rents go up so will rateable values as they are linked.

Parts of the property

Floor	Description	Area m²/unit	Price per m²/unit	Value
Ground	Indoor loosebox	39.00	£350.00	£13,650
Ground	Outdoor loosebox	30.00	£350.00	£10,500
Ground	Outdoor loosebox	12.00	£350.00	£4,200
Sub total area per m²81		Property parts sub total rateable value£28,350
Additional details

Description		Area m²/unit	Price per m²/unit	Value
Indoor arena, sand		3087.0	£6.00	£18,522
Outdoor arena		1750.0	£1.50	£2,625
Outdoor arena		3000.0	£1.50	£4,500
Canopy		134.67	£0.00	£0
Outdoor horse walker		2.0	£250.00	£500
Mess room		12.67	£25.00	£317
Office		50.42	£25.00	£1,261
Bar		170.24	£25.00	£4,256
Restaurant		212.99	£25.00	£5,325
Shop		25.96	£25.00	£649
Shop		50.5	£25.00	£1,263
Tack/store		72.28	£15.00	£1,084
Hay store		103.76	£15.00	£1,556
Tack room		17.7	£20.00	£354
Tack room		17.7	£20.00	£354
Tack room		17.7	£20.00	£354
Toilet block		101.99	£0.00	£0
Toilet block		56.52	£0.00	£0
Additional property details' total number of items8,884.1		Additional Property Details' sub total rateable value£42,920
Total value: £71,270


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## Exploding Chestnuts (3 December 2016)

The shop only pays £649??? ............. I paid £5000 for my shop. I did not even have a pavement outside the doorway! It had been removed to allow the road to be widened!!!!
Of course, by way of explanations, there is a RV, Rateable Value, and then there is the rate paid, so RV may be £1000, but the annual payment can be £500 if rated at 50 p in the pound, or £750 paid if rated at 75p in the pound. Apologies if this is out of date, but this was the reasoning I have been given by the Rating Authority when I challenged the valuation.
Thanks for that popsdosh: the whole rating business is dictated by "valuers" following guidelines, presumably designed to ensure a steady level of income annually, this income being a "pot" from which are paid the services provided, with the Taxpayer topping up as determined by HM Govt.
Inevitable this leads to a very inequitable system, unfortunately the people who make "big issue" decisions come from wealthy backgrounds, and have never started up or run a business from their own resources, even Bannatyne got help to start his Ice Cream van, fortunately he did not have to pay business rates, until such time as he had the where with all to pay them.


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## popsdosh (3 December 2016)

tristar said:



			sorry popsdosh i was only responding to your post about sending me to live there.

but horses are agri animals in countries where they are organised enough to have national studs and land is used for horse breeding on a scale not seen in england, ie. french national studs, stands stallions all over france for breeders to use in their area, and all the continental studs are very present to supply semen and embryo transfer is normal on even smaller studs they have their own lab.


but exactly who is the person that decides to triple someones rates and actually put people out of business? do they realize the consequences of their actions? do they have any idea they are destroying peoples lives? and what exactly are they going to do with the money? it sounds like they are unaccountable or maybe they have no conception of how it would feel if it was done to them, or perhaps they are just plain thick.

all the  services like farriers you say will have to pay more rates, may not have to, if they keep on putting up rates and folk can`t afford horses, they won`t be paying any rates they`ll be out of business, if horses were agri and rates not paid on stables it would expand the whole thing, everyone would have more diposable income, money in peoples pockets where it belongs.

they could make up the short fall, if it really exists, from areas where there is wastage at present

it seems to  me the english government has never and will never give support to the horse industry, because they have not got the brains to see what a money maker it could have been for them, and lets forget heritage they would need a dictionary for that one
		
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The problem is we do not know the full picture with the OPs yard and it is very easy to mistake whats happening there to a trend. I can find no evidence of it being a general thing .  Like I said if the OPs yard has been undervalued historically surely to be fair to all other yard owners it should be brought into line. Legitimate yards struggle enough competing with the boxes for cash brigade as it is.
Just to clarify for you although horses are classed as agric in France they do indeed still have to pay local taxes similar to business rates.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (3 December 2016)

popsdosh said:



			The problem is we do not know the full picture with the OPs yard and it is very easy to mistake whats happening there to a trend. I can find no evidence of it being a general thing .
		
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There is no doubt it is a general thing, see Racing Post yesterday.
and as for people paying cash ,,, this is a nonsense, I have customers who offer me cash, expecting a "discount" lol, I don't want to deal with people who are essentially dishonest, if they think they can swizzle the taxman, their mindset is to swizzle me too.


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## popsdosh (3 December 2016)

Bonkers2 said:



			There is no doubt it is a general thing, see Racing Post yesterday.
and as for people paying cash ,,, this is a nonsense, I have customers who offer me cash, expecting a "discount" lol, I don't want to deal with people who are essentially dishonest, if they think they can swizzle the taxman, their mindset is to swizzle me too.
		
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No but you dont want to compete with the person with a few stables who does take cash and pays no business rates.

I dont think trebling of business rates is general by any stretch of the imagination . they may be going up but so have rents. How long will a yard in Newmarket stay on the market if you can find one?  The rateable value of equestrian properties is on a national scheme so the same facilities in one yard will be valued the same as any other yard in the country it is code 236 which is national scheme for riding schools and livery yards.


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## popsdosh (3 December 2016)

Having checked out West Berks business rates data base , maybe OP has been a little economical with the situation as only one property fits the figures given and indeed they have been valued under the national framework.


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## ruth83 (3 December 2016)

Ok, if the OP - who is probably seriously worried about the future of her business at this point, regardless of how up/down/around her figures might be - is still reading at this point, I would strongly advise her to get in touch with The BHS. It does not matter whether or not she is an approved yard at this time. I would say the same to anyone reading who is the owner of a rateable yard. 

The BHS is looking into business rates and currently in discussion with the government regarding business rates for equestrian businesses. 

For those drawing parallels with high street or other businesses, figures I have been given in relation to this matter show that the average business will see their rates increase by 9%. For equestrian businesses, the average increase is 50%. The biggest increase reported so far is 300%.


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## ycbm (3 December 2016)

Bonkers2 said:



			But it is not fair to charge on the facilities rather than per horse, if facilities are  unused, they are not creating cost to the ratepayer. If you want an example of how unfair rating systems have historically altered images, the window tax 1696-1851 led to bricking up of windows [some of these remain to this day], the Roof Tax [lots of fine houses demolished in the 1950/60's or roofs just removed.
		
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How is it fair to charge me rates on three rooms I don't use, Bonkers? Of course it's fair. I chose to live here. OP chooses to run a business which has clearly been incorrectly treated in the past and is now being put right.


Popsdosh I'm very unsure about charging rates per square yard for an indoor school, but then again, why not?  Riding indoors must rank very high on the ultra luxury list.


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## honetpot (3 December 2016)

popsdosh said:



			No but you dont want to compete with the person with a few stables who does take cash and pays no business rates.

I dont think trebling of business rates is general by any stretch of the imagination . they may be going up but so have rents. How long will a yard in Newmarket stay on the market if you can find one?  The rateable value of equestrian properties is on a national scheme so the same facilities in one yard will be valued the same as any other yard in the country it is code 236 which is national scheme for riding schools and livery yards.
		
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There are quite a few yards in Newmarket that are empty or have a regular turnover of tenants who try to make a living but soon find out its not economic and some of them are tiny and cover less than 1/2 acre in total. Newmarket has vested interest in keeping the rates payable down, most of its income is based on racing one way or another but its still a fairly poor town.
  Everyone wants things to be fair, but if you are going to rated highly on a facility that you can not generate income from people will have to get rid of it. The only way I can see round this is that everyone becomes a sports charity, like many schools and larger charities and get charitable relief on their rates and gets registered for VAT, then they can claim the that back.


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## twiggy2 (3 December 2016)

How do you find out what rates a yard will be paying?


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## honetpot (3 December 2016)

Your local council offices.


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## popsdosh (3 December 2016)

twiggy2 said:



			How do you find out what rates a yard will be paying?
		
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https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/view-my-valuation/search 

 put in the postcode and then choose the correct property you can check out the current valuation and the new one


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## popsdosh (3 December 2016)

honetpot said:



			There are quite a few yards in Newmarket that are empty or have a regular turnover of tenants who try to make a living but soon find out its not economic and some of them are tiny and cover less than 1/2 acre in total. Newmarket has vested interest in keeping the rates payable down, most of its income is based on racing one way or another but its still a fairly poor town.
  Everyone wants things to be fair, but if you are going to rated highly on a facility that you can not generate income from people will have to get rid of it. The only way I can see round this is that everyone becomes a sports charity, like many schools and larger charities and get charitable relief on their rates and gets registered for VAT, then they can claim the that back.
		
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However have to charge VAT on their liveries


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## ycbm (3 December 2016)

honetpot said:



			There are quite a few yards in Newmarket that are empty or have a regular turnover of tenants who try to make a living but soon find out its not economic and some of them are tiny and cover less than 1/2 acre in total. Newmarket has vested interest in keeping the rates payable down, most of its income is based on racing one way or another but its still a fairly poor town.
  Everyone wants things to be fair, but if you are going to rated highly on a facility that you can not generate income from people will have to get rid of it. The only way I can see round this is that everyone becomes a sports charity, like many schools and larger charities and get charitable relief on their rates and gets registered for VAT, then they can claim the that back.
		
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In other industries this situation is known as excess supply.


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## honetpot (3 December 2016)

popsdosh said:



			However have to charge VAT on their liveries 

Click to expand...

  Yes but if they are fulfilling there charitable aims there would be a % on certain things they could claim back. It would out on a %. Certain charities rent out facilities to fund the charity which includes employees salaries. If you followed the Moorcroft thread if you look at the expenses and the facilities for that equine charity they are obviously using these rules.


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## popsdosh (3 December 2016)

honetpot said:



			Yes but if they are fulfilling there charitable aims there would be a % on certain things they could claim back. It would out on a %. Certain charities rent out facilities to fund the charity which includes employees salaries. If you followed the Moorcroft thread if you look at the expenses and the facilities for that equine charity they are obviously using these rules.
		
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But there is no VAT on rent per se.! well there can be but if you dont charge VAT on rent you cannot reclaim input tax. Do you really expect HMRC to accept livery yards as charities.


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## honetpot (3 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			In other industries this situation is known as excess supply.
		
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 I think also of people regret the loss of so many of our well established riding school, I do not think there is an excess supply of those.
  If everyone who rents out a stable and a bit of grazing is going to have to pay full business rates on every facility used surely by the same token if you work from home and use one room of the house or office in the garden you should have business rates paid on the whole house. 
You can claim expenses for tax purposes a % of facilities used, so why not the same for business rates?  You have 5 stables for private use, tack room, hay store etc and 1 livery so your business rate is 1 sixth, but you can also claim taxable expenses on that stable and 1 6th of any facilities used.


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## honetpot (3 December 2016)

popsdosh said:



			But there is no VAT on rent per se.! well there can be but if you dont charge VAT on rent you cannot reclaim input tax. Do you really expect HMRC to accept livery yards as charities.
		
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 No the liveries are being charged rent by the charity, which must be a valid one and the money goes to the charity that pays its employees.
  A lot of fee paying schools are charities, they rent out sports facilities, the ground staff are paid by the charity. Even though most of the pupils  pay fees they still have charitable status because some pupils are effectively free, so comply the charity status.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (3 December 2016)

honetpot said:



			No the liveries are being charged rent by the charity, which must be a valid one and the money goes to the charity that pays its employees.
  A lot of fee paying schools are charities, they rent out sports facilities, the ground staff are paid by the charity. Even though most of the pupils  pay fees they still have charitable status because some pupils are effectively free, so comply the charity status.
		
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You've hit one nail on its head, but remember that all parents pay tax, and each school child costs the taxpayer about £5K per school year, however the parents of fee paying schools are not able to claim tax back. Just saying. The whole system is a mess


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## honetpot (3 December 2016)

Somehow I do not think these parents will be worried about the tax. Registered Charity Number 1139086  
http://www.etoncollege.com/
 but to be fair the local playgroup could qualify if it was big enough.


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## ycbm (3 December 2016)

honetpot said:



			Somehow I do not think these parents will be worried about the tax. Registered Charity Number 1139086  
http://www.etoncollege.com/
 but to be fair the local playgroup could qualify if it was big enough.
		
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And to be even fairer, those parents are saving the taxpayer money. I personally think that the private provision of anything which would otherwise have to be provided by the state should be tax free. Education and health care being the top two.

I really struggling to see how reducing the cost of private education equates with reducing the cost of livery services for horse owners?


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## ycbm (3 December 2016)

honetpot said:



			I think also of people regret the loss of so many of our well established riding school, I do not think there is an excess supply of those.
		
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They are dying from health and safety and 'you've had an accident, oh let's sue'  itis, aren't they?   And possibly partly from people not being prepared to pay for a luxury and very expensive sport, so yes that would be excess supply. And that is fuelled by how ridiculously cheap it is to buy and keep your own horse .....  and back to the start of the circle!


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## twiggy2 (3 December 2016)

honetpot said:



			Your local council offices.
		
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popsdosh said:



https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/view-my-valuation/search 

 put in the postcode and then choose the correct property you can check out the current valuation and the new one
		
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Thank you


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## honetpot (3 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			And to be even fairer, those parents are saving the taxpayer money. I personally think that the private provision of anything which would otherwise have to be provided by the state should be tax free. Education and health care being the top two.

I really struggling to see how reducing the cost of private education equates with reducing the cost of livery services for horse owners?
		
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 Most private schools and colleges  are registered as education charities, the same rules would apply to an equine/sports charity that also complied with its charitable aims but provided services for people owning equines.
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.u...teredCharityNumber=1139086&SubsidiaryNumber=1
 As you can see it covers a wide range of aims including maintenance of buildings
  They would get some relief on their business rates on buildings, tax advantages, and staff employed by the charity could also be used as long as money paid was paid to the charity.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (3 December 2016)

Well now, if we are going there: an international Christian charity [for homeless and destitute] owns a house near me, it is empty, has been for years, they don't pay rates and they don't pay for maintenance. How do I know?   I could not get paid for work done on their house, so I kicked up, when I threatened publicity, I got paid ONE  hour later ........ I d waited three months through their procedures, and was advised to go to court, of course they were not legally responsible, morally? That's not something they wanted to know about, after all a nice £65K  job in London carries a big responsibility. I no longer give the Salvation Army a tenner at Christmas.
Was it Jesus who tipped over the tables? The effect has not been long lasting.


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## ester (3 December 2016)

I don't want to be educated by my livery yard , I think that is a rather tenuous suggestion!


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## twiggy2 (3 December 2016)

Sorry if I have missed it but how much does it work out at per 12x12 stable per year? 
Per 20x40 manege?
Per 20 meter round pen?
Per container?
Per 6x6 tack room?
Do you pay for storage space etc?
Sorry if I am being dim


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## ester (3 December 2016)

popsdosh said:



			This probably hasnt come out well but this is the breakdown of valuation for an equestrian centre near me. You will see that all parts of the business are rated at their own values! This one has gone up from circa 60k however considerable facilities including boxes and another outdoor school have been put in since the last valuation. People need to be aware that all the time commercial rents go up so will rateable values as they are linked.

Parts of the property

Floor	Description	Area m²/unit	Price per m²/unit	Value
Ground	Indoor loosebox	39.00	£350.00	£13,650
Ground	Outdoor loosebox	30.00	£350.00	£10,500
Ground	Outdoor loosebox	12.00	£350.00	£4,200
Sub total area per m²81		Property parts sub total rateable value£28,350
Additional details

Description		Area m²/unit	Price per m²/unit	Value
Indoor arena, sand		3087.0	£6.00	£18,522
Outdoor arena		1750.0	£1.50	£2,625
Outdoor arena		3000.0	£1.50	£4,500
Canopy		134.67	£0.00	£0
Outdoor horse walker		2.0	£250.00	£500
Mess room		12.67	£25.00	£317
Office		50.42	£25.00	£1,261
Bar		170.24	£25.00	£4,256
Restaurant		212.99	£25.00	£5,325
Shop		25.96	£25.00	£649
Shop		50.5	£25.00	£1,263
Tack/store		72.28	£15.00	£1,084
Hay store		103.76	£15.00	£1,556
Tack room		17.7	£20.00	£354
Tack room		17.7	£20.00	£354
Tack room		17.7	£20.00	£354
Toilet block		101.99	£0.00	£0
Toilet block		56.52	£0.00	£0
Additional property details' total number of items8,884.1		Additional Property Details' sub total rateable value£42,920
Total value: £71,270
		
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does this help?


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## ycbm (3 December 2016)

honetpot said:



			Most private schools and colleges  are registered as education charities, the same rules would apply to an equine/sports charity that also complied with its charitable aims but provided services for people owning equines.
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.u...teredCharityNumber=1139086&SubsidiaryNumber=1
 As you can see it covers a wide range of aims including maintenance of buildings
  They would get some relief on their business rates on buildings, tax advantages, and staff employed by the charity could also be used as long as money paid was paid to the charity.
		
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But RDA aside, what possible justification is there morally for a livery stables to be a charity?

Owning and boarding a horse is a luxury.


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## twiggy2 (3 December 2016)

ester said:



			does this help?
		
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If I am reading that correctly the each loose box is £350 per year in rates?


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## ester (3 December 2016)

No for some reason I thought it was when on phone, that is the unit price per square meter, so 
Floor	Description	Area m²/unit	Price per m²/unit	Value
Ground	Indoor loosebox	39.00	£350.00	£13,650

39 square meters of loosebox at £350 per m², 39x350= £13650 ratable value.

I reckon a 12x12 is 13.3ish m² so that would be 3 boxes worth?

So £4550 per box?

But that doesn't seem like many boxes for the number of tack rooms on that yard! and work out as a lot per box so I think I am completely out!


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## twiggy2 (3 December 2016)

ester said:



			No for some reason I thought it was when on phone, that is the unit price per square meter, so 
Floor	Description	Area m²/unit	Price per m²/unit	Value
Ground	Indoor loosebox	39.00	£350.00	£13,650

39 square meters of loosebox at £350 per m², 39x350= £13650 ratable value.

I reckon a 12x12 is 13.3ish m² so that would be 3 boxes worth?

So £4550 per box?

But that doesn't seem like many boxes for the number of tack rooms on that yard! and work out as a lot per box so I think I am completely out!
		
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That's what threw me,  my current yard has approx 64 stables 12 x 12 minimum, 2x manages of 20 x 40, approx 60 tack rooms, approx 60 hay store areas that hold a minimum of 14 standard bales, a round pen, minimum 8 containers rented out,  2 open sided barns, an enclosed barn of approx 20 x 60, another barn attached to that, 2 double garages with a forge in, and various other storage areas and a huge enclosed barn rented out to a company.
Their business rates for next year are 20k


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## popsdosh (3 December 2016)

twiggy2 said:



			That's what threw me,  my current yard has approx 64 stables 12 x 12 minimum, 2x manages of 20 x 40, approx 60 tack rooms, approx 60 hay store areas that hold a minimum of 14 standard bales, a round pen, minimum 8 containers rented out,  2 open sided barns, an enclosed barn of approx 20 x 60, another barn attached to that, 2 double garages with a forge in, and various other storage areas and a huge enclosed barn rented out to a company.
Their business rates for next year are 20k
		
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The valuation figure quoted is not the business rates it is the value used to establish the figure  it is then multiplied by just under 50p well 48.2 to be precise which gives you the actual rates to pay.  Is the figure you quote what they are paying in which case their rateable valuation will be in excess of 40K or what what their projected valuation is in which case their bill will be about 9.7K


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## popsdosh (3 December 2016)

ester said:



			does this help?
		
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Not sure what thats about? It was put up as an example of how the Value is worked out.

Sorry missed post above!


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## popsdosh (3 December 2016)

ester said:



			No for some reason I thought it was when on phone, that is the unit price per square meter, so 
Floor	Description	Area m²/unit	Price per m²/unit	Value
Ground	Indoor loosebox	39.00	£350.00	£13,650

39 square meters of loosebox at £350 per m², 39x350= £13650 ratable value.

I reckon a 12x12 is 13.3ish m² so that would be 3 boxes worth?

So £4550 per box?

But that doesn't seem like many boxes for the number of tack rooms on that yard! and work out as a lot per box so I think I am completely out!
		
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Boxes are valued per box ! as there are nationally agreed levels other facilities are per M2  ie the schools, offices , barns etc


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## Exploding Chestnuts (4 December 2016)

popsdosh said:



			No but you dont want to compete with the person with a few stables who does take cash and pays no business rates.
		
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I don t know who these people are, the valuation officers are not complete idiots, nor are the Taxmen, when they catch up they demand payment "on the day" Why would anyone take a few pounds in cash to save 20% in Income Tax, it does not make sense, if they have stabling this will be known, and they will be rated accordingly.
Any sudden and unforseen changes are going to be problematic to many individual businesses which would charge more if it were equable. Higher charges meaning more profit  allows for investment and improvements. There is little point in working only to pay business rates, wages, overheads.


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## twiggy2 (4 December 2016)

popsdosh said:



			The valuation figure quoted is not the business rates it is the value used to establish the figure  it is then multiplied by just under 50p well 48.2 to be precise which gives you the actual rates to pay.  Is the figure you quote what they are paying in which case their rateable valuation will be in excess of 40K or what what their projected valuation is in which case their bill will be about 9.7K
		
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I looked again and what they will be paying is around the 10k mark


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## popsdosh (4 December 2016)

Bonkers2 said:



			I don t know who these people are, the valuation officers are not complete idiots, nor are the Taxmen, when they catch up they demand payment "on the day" Why would anyone take a few pounds in cash to save 20% in Income Tax, it does not make sense, if they have stabling this will be known, and they will be rated accordingly.
Any sudden and unforseen changes are going to be problematic to many individual businesses which would charge more if it were equable. Higher charges meaning more profit  allows for investment and improvements. There is little point in working only to pay business rates, wages, overheads.
		
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You are very naive if you dont think its happening ! Looking on the database I can see at least two yards missing from the valuation list locally one of 25 boxes guess their the lucky ones that have not been caught up with yet.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (4 December 2016)

popsdosh said:



			You are very naive if you dont think its happening ! Looking on the database I can see at least two yards missing from the valuation list locally one of 25 boxes guess their the lucky ones that have not been caught up with yet.
		
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I know every stable withing a ten mile radius, and they are all known to the valuation office, maybe one exception, but I am not sure cos I don't know the address. If the place near you has no pp and takes in cash for stabling, he must have difficulty sleeping soundly, or is incredibly stupid. He can be forced to pay debts, backdated and probably have to both demolish stabling and sell property. Lester Piggott was so mean he ended up in jail, though in the long run he ended up in Switzerland!
One advantage of running a business is that you balance costs v income, so he would not pay tax on all income


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## popsdosh (4 December 2016)

Bonkers2 said:



			I know every stable withing a ten mile radius, and they are all known to the valuation office, maybe one exception, but I am not sure cos I don't know the address. If the place near you has no pp and takes in cash for stabling, he must have difficulty sleeping soundly, or is incredibly stupid. He can be forced to pay debts, backdated and probably have to both demolish stabling and sell property. Lester Piggott was so mean he ended up in jail, though in the long run he ended up in Switzerland!
One advantage of running a business is that you balance costs v income, so he would not pay tax on all income
		
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No Lester was just plain stupid. Not a good idea to pay your taxes with a cheque from an account the taxman didnt know about!


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## Goldenstar (4 December 2016)

Bonkers2 said:



			I don t know who these people are, the valuation officers are not complete idiots, nor are the Taxmen, when they catch up they demand payment "on the day" Why would anyone take a few pounds in cash to save 20% in Income Tax, it does not make sense, if they have stabling this will be known, and they will be rated accordingly.
Any sudden and unforseen changes are going to be problematic to many individual businesses which would charge more if it were equable. Higher charges meaning more profit  allows for investment and improvements. There is little point in working only to pay business rates, wages, overheads.
		
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Higher prices do not mean investment in a buisness if you are handing the money straight over in a tax.
I really fear for the future of horses kept in livery .
Below the radar livery is common round here .


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## popsdosh (4 December 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Higher prices do not mean investment in a buisness if you are handing the money straight over in a tax.
I really fear for the future of horses kept in livery .
Below the radar livery is common round here .
		
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Its common everywhere a lot of small yards would never operate if it wasnt so.


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## SEL (5 December 2016)

popsdosh said:



			You are very naive if you dont think its happening ! Looking on the database I can see at least two yards missing from the valuation list locally one of 25 boxes guess their the lucky ones that have not been caught up with yet.
		
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I've just checked yards near me and one is not on there & another one seems to be collated with farm buildings.


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## Amicus (5 December 2016)

How are grass liveries charged or would rates just be charged on the facilities not fields?


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## Goldenstar (5 December 2016)

Grazing land is not rated .


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## tristar (5 December 2016)

i have lived and generated business income, some through horses and property in several eurozone countries and always found it very favourable where property tax is concerned and horse are agri animals.


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## 3OldPonies (3 January 2017)

skint1 said:



			I think this is just another nail in the coffin for a lot of ordinary people being able to afford to have a horse, I don't think it will create a level playing field in any way at all.  I don't know what will happen to all the horses owned by ordinary people and all the professionals who provide services to them when we are all finally priced out of the market, but I am sure someone will figure that out when it happens.
		
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Well said.  I know I'm lucky at the moment keeping my two on a DIY basis on a rented field with just mains water and some falling down wooden stables and sheds for storage on a pretty reasonable rent.  That might sound strange to some people on here who want all the bells and whistles that come with horse ownership, but I certainly couldn't afford and don't need the facilities of the yards in my area that are charging £500 a month for DIY livery per horse now that both are retired.  In fact I know of a few liveries who are jealous because they want a simpler 'lifestyle' for their horses but three yards have closed near me in the last year and places like mine are very hard to come by and as a result a lot of people are paying possibly more than they can afford (one friend nearly ended up bankrupt trying to keep her horse) just so they can keep their horse.

Yes, I know livery yards have to make money - that's the way the world works, but if people are being priced out then it's going to look very bleak indeed for our hobby in the next few years.  OP - it might be worth you contacting a company that specialises in rates valuations, they might be able to help you.  If as you say there are yards you know of paying a lot less, then something is wrong somewhere.


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## Alibear (4 January 2017)

It looks like the valuation per M2 for a loose-box has gone up drastically from £175 to £350 and that's for everyone. It's quite a price hike, I can see where you figure out how much more rates you actually have to pay for that valuation though.


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## popsdosh (4 January 2017)

Alibear said:



			It looks like the valuation per M2 for a loose-box has gone up drastically from £175 to £350 and that's for everyone. It's quite a price hike, I can see where you figure out how much more rates you actually have to pay for that valuation though.
		
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Thats per box not per M2 just to make that clear . What you have to pay is the total valuation x 48% so for every £ 100 you pay £48


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## deskbound (30 June 2017)

Sorry to drag this one up on a sunshiney day but @popsdosh / others I am trying to guesstimate potential applicable rates for an equestrian property which is currently in private use... would be grateful for any guidance, PM if easier! Thanks in advance, before i tear ALL my hair out...


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## little_critter (1 July 2017)

deskbound said:



			Sorry to drag this one up on a sunshiney day but @popsdosh / others I am trying to guesstimate potential applicable rates for an equestrian property which is currently in private use... would be grateful for any guidance, PM if easier! Thanks in advance, before i tear ALL my hair out...
		
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You don't need to guesstimate, you can look it up. Or if the property isn't listed here https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/view-my-valuation/cca/search then look up something similar, it shows what is being charged per box / barn / arena etc.


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## sywell (8 August 2017)

be positive said:



			Why should horse owners get their hobby subsidised, horses are not an agricultural animal, except for the few that are and will already be exempt from business rates/ vat, as the owner of a small yard it would be great to be able to claim back vat/ pay no rates/ reduced utility bills, etc but in reality why should my liveries be able to have their horses at a reduced cost when it is something they choose to spend their money on, do for fun, it has no link to food production and benefits no one other than themselves.

I do think Riding schools should be treated differently as they do offer a service to so many people and I know how many are crippled by business rates, a small RS near me closed when they were told the rates would be £35k a year, I don't think she was turning over much more than that running a tiny RS with only a few ponies plus some liveries but they rated her barn/ outdoor arena by the square foot and there was nothing she could do to cut back short of demolishing the barn, she closed down and sold up.
		
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Why do the other 27 EU countries treat horses as livestock and we as pets. If you can prove all your horses are bred for meat they would have to be treated as livestock. EU regs say ID only horses are for food and production.


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## Goldenstar (8 August 2017)

Personally I think there's a case for sports facilities to be rated at a different rate not just riding schools .


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## be positive (8 August 2017)

sywell said:



			Why do the other 27 EU countries treat horses as livestock and we as pets. If you can prove all your horses are bred for meat they would have to be treated as livestock. EU regs say ID only horses are for food and production.
		
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Most of our horses are pets, we have never had a real horsemeat trade in this country and very few that want to eat horsemeat, it would also mean far more restrictions on what we can do with them, drugs not given without very strict conditions, most would be signed out as they are now but checks would become more stringent.


I think we should have more abattoirs and have a value for the low end horses but I am not sure making them livestock will be beneficial in any way to the average horse owner just more red tape to contend with, in many parts of Europe eating horses is normal, they travel across borders, there are regulations but as we know they are often not upheld so I am not sure being livestock is in the best interests of the horse either.


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