# Is it ok to keep horse this way?



## Horsesgalore (27 September 2011)

I've just started riding at a farm where the farmer takes people out for hacks on his horses. I'm just a bit unsure about how his horses are kept and wondered if anyone could tell me is this okay, or common practice?

It's been summer since I started and the horses' routine is, they're out at night, then come in in the morning. They stand in stalls with no bedding, the concrete slopes so the urine drains away. They are tethered by a rope round their necks (a gadget stops the rope getting too tight). The other end of the rope goes through something attached to the wall, and is weighted, so they can move a little but the rope doesn't go slack.

They never have water in the stalls but I think they'e only in for a few hours before it's time to ride. Their bottoms face the barn door so they can't see out, but they're in a row so can see each other. They get a handful of hay from time to time.

All the horses seem very fit and healthy, they all seem to love the farmer and are gentle and content. I just hadn't seen horses kept like this before!

It hasn't bothered me much until I found out today that in a month or so they'll be in all the time. They'll be ridden once most days and apparently do get to walk about outside a bit to stretch their legs when possible. But most of the time, they'll live in those stalls. I haven't liked to ask if they get bedding and water then!


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## Spring Feather (27 September 2011)

They're standing stalls.  Not so common nowadays but that was how many horses were kept when I was a child.


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## Cortez (27 September 2011)

Horses have been kept in stalls for many centuries. You said yourself that the horses seem fit and content.


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## Dolcé (27 September 2011)

As said above, used to be common for working horses to be kept like this, several riding schools I helped at as a child had them.


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## SeasonalSituation (27 September 2011)

No problem I see, the riding school I worked at had a lot like that, saw no problem with it, they were kept well and were very healthy and happy.


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## Horsesgalore (27 September 2011)

Thankyou for your replies which are very reassuring.

Like I say, I'd never seen this before. I like riding there but I'd started worrying about the way they're kept, especially when I was told they will be in those stalls most of the day and all night soon. 

But yes, they do seem content and well. So I'll stop worrying.


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## Tnavas (27 September 2011)

Very common method at one time but must admit they usually wore a headcollar rather than a rope around the neck.

The weight keeps some tension on the rope so the horse is not able to get its legs over the rope or it's head under the rope and so get trapped.

I'm guessing there is probebly a water trough in the yard for the horses to drink from - this was a common practise - the grooms brought the horses out to drink several times a day.

I expect in winter the horses will have bedding to lie down on and hopefully water buckets in the stall.

Often when the horse is got ready to be worked it would be turned around and cross tied.

So long as the horses are healthy, carry sufficient weight and appear to enjoy thier work they will be fine.


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## SpruceRI (28 September 2011)

The Household Cavalry horses are kept in stalls similar to this, I don't know for how long at a time and whether they have access to hay and water.


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## fatpiggy (28 September 2011)

Its ok-ish but I'd prefer to see hay and water available.  Just one thing would concern me though and that is does the farmer have the required council licence and insurance to be doing this?  Legally I would have to have a riding school if I just gave someone lessons on my horse and they paid me for it.


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## Monkers (28 September 2011)

No, this is an entirely unacceptable way to keep a horse. Just because it has been a popular method (not anymore thank goodness.) in the past doesn't make it right. Horses are kept like this for human convenience as it makes good use of a small space and there is minimal mucking out.
Horses should have access to clean fresh water at all times, and no horse should go for extended periods without forage. Tethering by the neck is abhorrant and extremely dangerous.

The farmer must by law have a riding school's license. I doubt very much he has one as his yard would have been inspected by a vet appointed by the local authority. He would have been denied a license for the fact there is no water freely available alone.

I strongly suggest you make some background checks and find out if this establishment is licensed and insured.


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## scarymare (28 September 2011)

Not great but I'm sure alot of horses would swap for it bearing in mind some of the neglect that goes on.  When i see something like this I always say to myself 'think about the horses in morocco' and it puts things into perspective.  If they are fed and happy and loved I'd leave well alone tbh.


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## foxy1 (28 September 2011)

Not acceptable in this day and age no.


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## scrunchie (28 September 2011)

OP, you say that you haven't been there long so has the farmer specifically said that the horses will stay there over winter? Or is that just an assumption? 

My old riding school (going back about 20 years) used a similar system for their ponies. The ponies were all stalled, clipped onto a weighted leadrope but they had a big stone trough that ran through each stall so you could fill it up from the end stall and they'd all get water.

At night they were turned out into a field, or, in winter,  they would go into an indoor menage with plenty of hay. Tbh they weren't in the stalls for long, especially not at weekends when they all had lessons to do.

I've never seen any problems with the system although I would think that anyone still using this system would probably use rubber matting in the bottom of the stalls.


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## MadBlackLab (28 September 2011)

I think this is going to cause a debate 

I personally don't like them but can understand them in the use of a riding school treking centre. If they are only standing in between lessons and get water and hay I can't see the issue. They take up less room in stalls then stables.

I don't like them being used as over night stabling.

The strap round the neck is controvesial (spelling!!!)


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## charlie76 (28 September 2011)

I run an equestrian centre. Our horses are stalled during the day in the summer and out at night. They are in headcollars if in during the day. They have access to hay and water at all times.
Last winter, when the weather was bad, they all came in and stayed in the stalls at night. They were loose in the stalls and had deep straw, hay and water. The stalls have slip rails across. They were all fine and happy.
They will come in again this winter.
When they are in at night, depending on the weather, they were all ridden every day , turned out or let loose in the indoor school.
This routine meant they were sane, warm and well fed. It also meant that the fields were good for the spring.
If anyone thinks its saves time mucking out it really is no different from mucking a stable. They still do the same amount of pooh and wee, I can assure you of that!


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## Horsesgalore (29 September 2011)

scrunchie said:



			OP, you say that you haven't been there long so has the farmer specifically said that the horses will stay there over winter? Or is that just an assumption?
		
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He said they'll be coming in in a month or so, and I asked do they get stables and he said no, they stay in their stalls. I didn't ask if they get bedding etc. They will have to be tethered as there doesn't seem any other way of keeping them in the stalls, that I can see. 

Someone who's been going there longer told me the horses usually get to wander about the farmyard a bit each day, but not go out into the fields during the winter.

During the summer they do spend most of their time in a big field. The farmer says he brings them into the stalls each day for a while to avoid them getting too fat, or getting sunburnt on their faces.


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## Clippy (29 September 2011)

That takes me back to when I was a kid and loose boxes were unusual for working horses. I expect your farmer is pretty old-fashioned!

They really should have hay and water with them. I have no issue with stalling them though


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## mulledwhine (29 September 2011)

To say that he would not be granted a licence because he does not have water freely available, sadly is not true.

A local stables never has water freely available when the horses are up, and they are ABRS approved


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## Fairynuff (29 September 2011)

I can see no problem with the way they are kept (apart from the lack of ad lib water). Im sure the farmer will provide bedding when they are stalled throughout the winter and from what op says, he seems to know what he is doing. Better stalled than out in the mud and rain imo!


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## indie999 (29 September 2011)

Sounds old fashioned but hey mine is out all day and the paddock he is in has no shelter at all(hedge all round) BUt perhaps I am cruel to do this. Blazing sunshine  with water. 

Sounds fine to me. They are probably dozing in the day time. 

The horses I rode on as a child sounds just like this they were stalled in the day and yes the pee drained down. The horses knew which stall to go into if you let just dropped the lead rope over they took themselves. As they came into the yard they would have a drink and then rest. At night they were out in a huge field.

They were all fit and normal weight. I dont remember laminitis at all(not like you hear now fat horses etc). All well behaved too.


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## FionaM12 (30 September 2011)

In old-fashioned stalls like this where there's no bedding and the wee just drains away, is there a danger to the horses' lungs from fumes/ammonia? 

I read that where possible your horse should be out of the stable when you do a thorough muck out (as opposed to just picking out a few droppings) to avoid him inhaling the fumes. Yet in standing stalls those fumes must be there all the time.


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## vallin (30 September 2011)

FionaM12 said:



			In old-fashioned stalls like this where there's no bedding and the wee just drains away, is there a danger to the horses' lungs from fumes/ammonia? 

I read that where possible your horse should be out of the stable when you do a thorough muck out (as opposed to just picking out a few droppings) to avoid him inhaling the fumes. Yet in standing stalls those fumes must be there all the time.
		
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But the difference here is standing stalls are generally better dsigned in terms of drainage and as such you tend not to get pools of urine and therefore amonia build up. (Or certainly this has been the case in the ones I have seen)


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## hessy12 (30 September 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			They're standing stalls.  Not so common nowadays but that was how many horses were kept when I was a child.
		
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Ditto. This is a rather old fashioned method, but was you say, the horses are fit and healthy. I see nothing wrong at all with this routine. So, yes it is alright.


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## POLLDARK (30 September 2011)

Fit & healthy does not denote whether sad/happy does it. Sounds a miserable existence, thought those days were gone. Can you imaginge a zoo keeping animals like that, there would be an uproar & they would be shut down. Just because something has always been done doesn't mean it is right, they used to burn witches !!


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## touchstone (30 September 2011)

I've seen stalled horses and they certainly didn't seem sad or unhappy, in fact they were quite content and relaxed.  They could all see the horses in adjoining stalls through the grills much more easily than horses in most loose boxes can. 

Providing they aren't stalled 24/7 and have adequate food and water readily available I don't think it's that much worse than stabling tbh - they can still lie down as they want.   There is a working museum near me that has all of its working horses in stalls and no complaints from the public that I'm aware of.

Personally I prefer horses out 24/7 anyway.


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## Wagtail (30 September 2011)

Horsesgalore said:



			I've just started riding at a farm where the farmer takes people out for hacks on his horses. I'm just a bit unsure about how his horses are kept and wondered if anyone could tell me is this okay, or common practice?

It's been summer since I started and the horses' routine is, they're out at night, then come in in the morning. They stand in stalls with no bedding, the concrete slopes so the urine drains away. They are tethered by a rope round their necks (a gadget stops the rope getting too tight). The other end of the rope goes through something attached to the wall, and is weighted, so they can move a little but the rope doesn't go slack.

They never have water in the stalls but I think they'e only in for a few hours before it's time to ride. Their bottoms face the barn door so they can't see out, but they're in a row so can see each other. They get a handful of hay from time to time.

All the horses seem very fit and healthy, they all seem to love the farmer and are gentle and content. I just hadn't seen horses kept like this before!

It hasn't bothered me much until I found out today that in a month or so they'll be in all the time. They'll be ridden once most days and apparently do get to walk about outside a bit to stretch their legs when possible. But most of the time, they'll live in those stalls. I haven't liked to ask if they get bedding and water then!
		
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No, personally I don't think it is okay. Not to be kept there 24/7 in the winter. For a few hours during a blistering hot summers day, maybe. Horses should be able to see out onto more than just walls or other horses. But then I don't like barn type stabling either, unless the horse has a window to look out of at the back too.


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## MagicMelon (30 September 2011)

Wow, Im shocked at some of the reponses on here saying its fine and perfectly normal.  Just because the horses look fit and well doesnt mean they're not mentally trying to kill themselves!  How totally unnatural for them, it couldnt be further from what they should be doing.  They are designed (physically and mentally) to graze all day and night. These can barely move, stand staring at a wall for what will be 24 hours a day and dont even have the basic needs of water and food... Id report to RSPCA personally.  Farmer should be shot.


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## MadBlackLab (30 September 2011)

Magic Melon if a horse is tethered correctly in the stall they are able to lie down. I've seen stallls work well in RS. I also have dealt with horses that are better and happier in stalls.

Reguarding the horse grazing naturally and being in a natural enviroment we could say the same about stabling in loose boxes or american barn


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## skydancer (30 September 2011)

Monkers said:



			No, this is an entirely unacceptable way to keep a horse. Just because it has been a popular method (not anymore thank goodness.) in the past doesn't make it right. Horses are kept like this for human convenience as it makes good use of a small space and there is minimal mucking out.
Horses should have access to clean fresh water at all times, and no horse should go for extended periods without forage. Tethering by the neck is abhorrant and extremely dangerous.

The farmer must by law have a riding school's license. I doubt very much he has one as his yard would have been inspected by a vet appointed by the local authority. He would have been denied a license for the fact there is no water freely available alone.

I strongly suggest you make some background checks and find out if this establishment is licensed and insured.
		
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Ditto - well said!


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## alliebaxter (30 September 2011)

that was the way all the riding school ponies were kept when i was a child circa 1960`s


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## DragonSlayer (30 September 2011)

If a horse is about to do a spell of hard work, as in....carry someone around for a couple of hours, do you think it will do it good having a belly full of water and hay in there?

If the horse hasn't had a drink coz he didn't want one for a while, then has a bloody good gut-full, then he has to go out on a ride, and trots and canters, and who knows....a gallop....what is that belly full of water going to do to it?

I am sure the farmer regulates the water, for the welfare of the horses.


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## DragonSlayer (30 September 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			Wow, Im shocked at some of the reponses on here saying its fine and perfectly normal.  Just because the horses look fit and well doesnt mean they're not mentally trying to kill themselves!  How totally unnatural for them, it couldnt be further from what they should be doing.  They are designed (physically and mentally) to graze all day and night. These can barely move, stand staring at a wall for what will be 24 hours a day and dont even have the basic needs of water and food... Id report to RSPCA personally.  Farmer should be shot.
		
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Was the horse invented for the human to ride it?

Nowt natural there, if you look at it that way.....


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## Nepenthe (30 September 2011)

A few points - 
Stalls do allow horses to lie down.
Tethering by the neck, if done properly is better than a headcollar - especially when there is a little tension on the rope, as the head skin is quite thin and prone to rubs compared to the neck.
Water - horses do not naturally drink small amounts of water throughout the day - they tend to only drink once or twice a day.
N


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## Boulty (30 September 2011)

Whilst I don't have a problem with horses being stood tied in stalls in between lessons (although I too would prefer that there is water there for them should they want it, esp on hot days) I too aren't keen on them spending the majority of their time like that in winter. (I'm a huge advocate of as much turnout as possible) As for the no bedding issue, tbh rs where I used to be didn't use bedding in their loose boxes where rs were put between lessons, just skipped out and swept wee away daily (tbh these standing stalls sound like they have much better drainage than the boxes used there!) they were only ever in for a few hours though and they didn't give hay to the rs horses whilst they were in, they did have constant access to water though.


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## saddlesore (30 September 2011)

I'm on the fence. Yes I've seen many horses kept this way - but not for a long time! Also the horses were only in during the day OR night, and the overnight horses had deep straw beds and did happily lie down. No real issues with this type of arrangement although I do much prefer 24/7 t/o - even in the wind and rain  Don't think its an acceptable long term solution 24/7 though - down right cruel actually. Sounds like a jail sentence......


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## Horsesgalore (1 October 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			Wow, Im shocked at some of the reponses on here saying its fine and perfectly normal.  Just because the horses look fit and well doesnt mean they're not mentally trying to kill themselves!  How totally unnatural for them, it couldnt be further from what they should be doing.  They are designed (physically and mentally) to graze all day and night. These can barely move, stand staring at a wall for what will be 24 hours a day and dont even have the basic needs of water and food... Id report to RSPCA personally.  Farmer should be shot.
		
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I posted this topic because I'm a bit concerned if this way of keeping horses is okay for them, but I really think this reply is extreme. Not only do they look fit and well, as you admit, but I've seen them coming in from the field. The farmer calls them and they come cantering in from their lush field, kicking their heels and playing. Then they walk straight into their stalls. You could argue they know no better, but they don't look depressed to me.

I don't believe the RSPCA would be interested, and I won't be shooting anyone, thanks.


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## touchstone (1 October 2011)

I think that there is some research somewhere to show that horses who are in tie stalls actually have less stereotypical behaviour problems than those kept in loose boxes, presumably because they are in close proximity with the neighbouring horses and you could argue that it can actually therefore be more 'natural' for them than being confined in a loose box.

"Isolation

Horses are a gregarious species and social isolation can have profound effects on many aspects of their behaviour. If people are kept in solitary confinement or are otherwise severely frustrated they may also show stereotypies (Broom and Kennedy 1993). In confinement in stalls, some sows are very inactive and unresponsive where as others show high levels of stereotypies and there are differences in their brain opioid receptor densities as a consequence (Broom 1987, Zanella et al 1992). Cribbing occurs less frequently in horses kept in tie stalls than it does in horses kept in box stalls, suggesting that isolation rather than confinement is the major contributing factor in the cause of cribbing (Miller 1996)."


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## mystiandsunny (1 October 2011)

When I was a child, that's how it was.  In summer and winter at my RS, the ponies lived out for most of the time, but came in at lunchtime for their afternoon lessons.  No hay, water or bedding in the stalls - but they were rarely in there for more than an hour or so at a time.  Horses naturally drink twice a day or so - a few hours without access isn't an issue.  

Anything 'delicate' came in during the winter and had bedding, haynet and either water bucket or led out twice a day to the yard water trough.  

They seemed happy, bright, cheerful with gleaming coats and illness was rare.  Not saying it's the 'best' way to keep them at all, but they seemed to do fine on it.


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## Nudibranch (1 October 2011)

I'd just like to know how tethering round the neck is "abhorent and extremely dangerous"?
It is generally more comfortable for the horse and leaves the head free. Nothing dangerous about it at all if it is done properly.

Not sure why some people can be up in arms about standing stalls yet think loose boxes are perfectly fine either. Far better a stall for short periods with close company, than stuck in a box 24/7 with an hours' exercise doing repetitive activities in the school. As long as they are bedded and given hay and water in winter then I don't see the problem really.


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## charlie76 (1 October 2011)

As I said
 Our horses are often stalled in the winter
 They show know vices,  work well and look fit and well. 
In the summer When They are out they have hay and water but no bedding
 The reason for no bedding is that we tried them with it and They Would lay down with their tack on! When they are stalled at night they are mucked out daily and the beds are left up to dry.


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## cassie summers (1 October 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			They're standing stalls.  Not so common nowadays but that was how many horses were kept when I was a child.
		
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yes when i was a kid thats how the local riding school horses were kept and they were always happy and content


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## tristar (1 October 2011)

i think all horses should have access to water, well obviously not immediately before a race etc, because they exist on highly fibrous food and need adequate quantities, my horses drink day and night as and when needed, the amount they take and frequency varies greatly, sudden rises in temperature can double their intake.

i am certain that leaving horses standing on concrete amounts to cruelty, i feel we should know better today, loose boxes where they can contact with next horse is better than stalling, it allows movement, freedom to lie down or roll, and an exterior view of whats going on.


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## Natch (1 October 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			How totally unnatural for them, it couldnt be further from what they should be doing.  They are designed (physically and mentally) to graze all day and night. These can barely move, stand staring at a wall for what will be 24 hours a day and dont even have the basic needs of water and food... Id report to RSPCA personally.  Farmer should be shot.
		
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YEAH! Let's shoot everyone who brings a horse into a stable for any period of time, whose horse doesn't have 24 hour access to suitable forage, (actually its more like 12-18 hours grazing) and let's prosecute anyone who feeds cereals or animal byproducts because that's not what they are designed (evolved) to eat. I tell you what, I'll take the Spanish Riding School, and you take Racing. Then we'll tackle the remaining 90% of the horse owning population together.

...

No, its not natural. But neither is the way most horses are kept, to a greater or lesser degree. 

OP, whether or not this yard's winter regime is unacceptable in terms of animal welfare is debatable, and will depend on things like if they are able to lie down, how much they get out of their stalls, and what and how much they are fed, and how often they are watered. Perhaps you could come back and give us an update once you know that, then we'll be able to advise if it warrants contacting a welfare body.


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## Fairynuff (1 October 2011)

whats wrong with them? I can still remember stalls like this with horses wearing jute rugs over gold yellow and red rugs and looking quite happy and content. 
Magic Melon, a lot of cattle are kept loose in barns but with **** up to their knees and their rumps covered in dried lumps of the stuff. Can't see anyone getting upset about them I think its time to stop treating horses as if they are made of crystal. TBH, I cant remember horses having so many problems (mental) as they do now so something tells me that we are causing the problems due to the way we are treating them . Just a thought.
I love this pic  http://www.flickr.com/photos/ben_salter/5179190748


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## SeasonalSituation (1 October 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			Wow, Im shocked at some of the reponses on here saying its fine and perfectly normal.  Just because the horses look fit and well doesnt mean they're not mentally trying to kill themselves!  How totally unnatural for them, it couldnt be further from what they should be doing.  They are designed (physically and mentally) to graze all day and night. These can barely move, stand staring at a wall for what will be 24 hours a day and dont even have the basic needs of water and food... Id report to RSPCA personally.  Farmer should be shot.
		
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Hmmmmm :/ ... I don't really understand why you would say any of that. Like previously posted I worked in a riding school only a few years ago and this was how they were kept (and still are to what I believe) and they were perfectly happy. Farmer should be shot? No not at all. Please do not be so snobby about an issue like this just because the horses do not stand in a loose box. Enjoy that ride you did the other day? Oh wait no, that's not natural is it? So guessing you haven't ridden.


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## LouandBee (1 October 2011)

OP - in my opinion, no it is not.

Although the summer routine sounds o.k, keeping them stalled 24/7 in winter in my opinion is unacceptable, especially if they do not have bedding, free access to hay and water. 

I'm another one who is surprised how may people think this is acceptable - just because it was the norm in the past does not mean it's o.k today. Times have moved on and we know alot more about our equine friends now...ulcers etc.

However, my experience of most riding schools is similar in that the care is often lacking. Unfortunately their horses are usually seen as a commodity.

I must add - I don't agree in keeping any animal in such a confined space all day and night and some of us do care about the cows knee deep in s**t.


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## SeasonalSituation (1 October 2011)

LouandBee said:



			However, my experience of most riding schools is similar in that the care is often lacking. Unfortunately their horses are usually seen as a commodity.
		
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Quite the opposite. Riding school horses are one of the most important parts, no horse, no lessons, no money. It is acceptable, and to be honest I bet the farmers horses are treated a hell of a lot better then those in loose boxes constantly.


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## Enfys (1 October 2011)

Monkers said:



*Tethering by the neck *is abhorrant and extremely dangerous.

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Isn't that what the Welfare chappies recommend for tethered horses though?

As for this particular case, how can this person be criticised when we really don't know all the facts? 

I know horses that are kept outside all winter, no shelters, no grass and often standing on sheet ice...does that also sound dreadful, or cruel?


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## Zebedee (1 October 2011)

I used to run a herd of youngsters in about 30 acres of grass. There was one water trough at the top of the field. The horses came up twice a day to drink regular as clockwork, regardless of the weather.


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## charlie76 (1 October 2011)

I'm not sure its fair to tar all riding schools with the same brush. I would say that our horses are cared for better than most private homes 
 They Have qualified staff caring for them daily and Have at least two, if not more, welfare inspections each year. They have quality hay and feed.  Live in or out to suit, Dentist and sports massage and all their needs answered which is more than They would get in some private homes. Of course They Are looked after,  without the horses There are no riding schools.  Without the riding schools there Will be ni where for people to learn to ride!


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## Fairynuff (1 October 2011)

just because 'things have moved on' as someone said, doesn't automatically  mean it is 'better'. Stable vices, ulcers and co were pretty rare when I was a child and horses were worked. Today, most equines do an hour in the school or hack and are thought to have 'worked'. A few years back horses/ponies hacked to the show, did the classes entered for (sometimes 4 plus a Chase me Charlie) and hacked home again. Horses were also hacked to the meet, hunted all day and hacked home in the dark. Todays horses dont know what work is! I suppose that would be called overworking these days !


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## Wagtail (1 October 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			If a horse is about to do a spell of hard work, as in....carry someone around for a couple of hours, do you think it will do it good having a belly full of water and hay in there?

If the horse hasn't had a drink coz he didn't want one for a while, then has a bloody good gut-full, then he has to go out on a ride, and trots and canters, and who knows....a gallop....what is that belly full of water going to do to it?

I am sure the farmer regulates the water, for the welfare of the horses.
		
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Horses are not like people. It is better for them to have a bellyful of forage when they work. Not hard feed or VERY lush grass though, I would give a break of one hour if they are stuffed, but it is BAD for horses not to have any fibre in their bellies when they are worked. It causes stomach acid to splash about and ulcers to form.


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## DragonSlayer (1 October 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Horses are not like people. It is better for them to have a bellyful of forage when they work. Not hard feed or VERY lush grass though, I would give a break of one hour if they are stuffed, but it is BAD for horses not to have any fibre in their bellies when they are worked. It causes stomach acid to splash about and ulcers to form.
		
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...and working a horse fast on a belly full of water can cause colic. Seen it happen. THAT is what I am refering to, did the OP not say the horses get hay periodically? So there is SOMETHING in there..it seems to me, the farmer is not wanting to risk something like colic, and if his horses seems happy and healthy, then maybe his system is working?


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## Horsesgalore (1 October 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			...and working a horse fast on a belly full of water can cause colic. Seen it happen. THAT is what I am refering to, did the OP not say the horses get hay periodically? So there is SOMETHING in there..it seems to me, the farmer is not wanting to risk something like colic, and if his horses seems happy and healthy, then maybe his system is working?
		
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That's true. Just before a ride sets off, the horses are always given a little hay and allowed a few minutes to eat it before being tacked up. I understand why now.


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## Weezy (1 October 2011)

tristar said:



			i am certain that leaving horses standing on concrete amounts to cruelty
		
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Then I feel that there are tens of thousands of horses that are being subjected to cruelty in this country right at this moment....our fields are like concrete, should we bed them down too?


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## FionaM12 (1 October 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			How totally unnatural for them, it couldnt be further from what they should be doing.  They are designed (physically and mentally) to graze all day and night.
		
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Surely it's completely "unnatural" for prey animals to live in fields of lush grass with no preditors to hunt them? Let alone having tack and human beings on them!


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## Holly Hocks (1 October 2011)

I once went on a riding holiday to York when I was a lot younger - the horses there were stalled.  I dont remember any seeming unhappy and all were up to weight.  The horses were turned out at night. 
I have a mare who hates to be in her stable - box walks, weaves, kicks even after five minutes inside.  Yet tie up up outside her stable and she is calm and happy, even though she can't move as much.  She would stand there for hours if necessary......so it makes me think that she would actually be more suited to a stall environment than a stable.


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## Mince Pie (1 October 2011)

My first riding school was an inner city one. Many of the horses were in stalls, all had bedding, and like the OP access to water several times a day (I remember going round with buckets!). They were turned 'out' in the indoor school at night (very limited paddocks due to location) with hay. All of them were extremely content whereas all the ones in the loose boxes were the ones with the stable vices and seemed less happy about life.


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## Pearlsasinger (1 October 2011)

Fairynuff said:



			whats wrong with them? I can still remember stalls like this with horses wearing jute rugs over gold yellow and red rugs and looking quite happy and content. 
Magic Melon, a lot of cattle are kept loose in barns but with **** up to their knees and their rumps covered in dried lumps of the stuff. Can't see anyone getting upset about them I think its time to stop treating horses as if they are made of crystal. TBH, I cant remember horses having so many problems (mental) as they do now so something tells me that we are causing the problems due to the way we are treating them . Just a thought.
I love this pic  http://www.flickr.com/photos/ben_salter/5179190748

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I have to agree with this.

I'm another who remembers RS ponies kept in stalls in the 60s - although I do think that the majority of them lived out during the week all year round.  the ponies were healthy and happy.  
The 'My Little Pony' culture is very much to the detriment of horse health and well-being IMO.


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## MotherOfChickens (1 October 2011)

is it an ideal system? maybe not-not many are. sounds preferable to me than keeping fat ponies half starved in tiny paddocks because they don't get enough exercise and most other permutations of what's 'better' these days.


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## MagicMelon (1 October 2011)

I dont believe for a second horses kept in stalls for long periods are "happy and healthy".  We all know stabling isnt good for their respiratory systems (ok, in this case there is no bedding but I imagine breathing in amonia and dust all day and night isnt good for them) and standing about not moving much certainly wont do a horse any favours.  Just because the horse isnt standing there with his head on the floor looking miserable doesnt mean he's "happy".  Just because they tolerate it, doesnt mean they wouldn't prefer to be out in a field!  

DragonSlayer - I agree riding horses is not natural, but surely we should try and keep them as natural as possible at the very least giving them basic requirements such as 24/7 access to water and food as well as somewhere where they have space to move around?

Horsesgalore - Dont believe its extreme at all.  How the farmer is keeping these horses is extreme.  Imagine if a heap of dogs were tied up facing a concrete wall all day (and permanently during the winter) with limited water and food - I'm pretty certain you'd all think that was horrifically cruel.  Why then any different with a horse who is designed to roam and graze?!

Fairynuff - I totally agree about stopping treating horses like crystal therefore why dont people simply chuck them out in fields permanently?  Far less work for all involved.  Why do so many people wrap them in cotton wool by stabling / stalling all the time?


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## Ditchjumper2 (1 October 2011)

I have no problem with it.  I too, remember the horses in the RS kept this way. Also, where I rode/helped/worked we have 5 hunters kept this way.  Were they turned out? No.  Did they ever have respiratory problems? No. Were they well mannered? Yes. Were they super fit? Yes

Whilst these days mucking out with a horse in the stable is a big no,no........I have to say that mucking out a horse in a stall really teaches behaviour.  They stand they move over, forward and back as requested.......because they would get a prod or a whack if they didn't.  No, not cruel....just manners.  There are too many badly behaved horses today who live so called "ideal" existances in colour co ordinated rugs with matching headcollars.


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## FionaM12 (2 October 2011)

MagicMelon: I do think shooting the farmer qualifies as extreme!


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## vickyb (2 October 2011)

I have worked with working carriage horses. They were out at night - tethered, which was the most economical way to use the grass (the tethers were moved a few feet each day, so they always had fresh grass each night). In the morning they came into their stalls, were fed and groomed and then worked all day. They were watered at specific times during the day, and had no access to water in their stalls. In the winter this routine was reversed (although they didn't work much in the winter - it was a summer tourist thing) These horses were exceptionally fit and happy, they loved their routine, and were most upset if it changed. So there are two big current no-no's; tethering and stalling!


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## touchstone (2 October 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			I dont believe for a second horses kept in stalls for long periods are "happy and healthy".  We all know stabling isnt good for their respiratory systems (ok, in this case there is no bedding but I imagine breathing in amonia and dust all day and night isnt good for them) and standing about not moving much certainly wont do a horse any favours.  Just because the horse isnt standing there with his head on the floor looking miserable doesnt mean he's "happy".  Just because they tolerate it, doesnt mean they wouldn't prefer to be out in a field!  

DragonSlayer - I agree riding horses is not natural, but surely we should try and keep them as natural as possible at the very least giving them basic requirements such as 24/7 access to water and food as well as somewhere where they have space to move around?

Horsesgalore - Dont believe its extreme at all.  How the farmer is keeping these horses is extreme.  Imagine if a heap of dogs were tied up facing a concrete wall all day (and permanently during the winter) with limited water and food - I'm pretty certain you'd all think that was horrifically cruel.  Why then any different with a horse who is designed to roam and graze?!

Fairynuff - I totally agree about stopping treating horses like crystal therefore why dont people simply chuck them out in fields permanently?  Far less work for all involved.  Why do so many people wrap them in cotton wool by stabling / stalling all the time?
		
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I am all for horses being out as much as possible, but there are times when they need to be brought in, especially working horses, those good doers that would be seriously obese out unrestricted 24/7, those prone to mud fever, laminitis etc etc...I'm sure all stabled horses would prefer to be out in the field, although there are those that seem to prefer to be in when it's too hot or wet or flies are an issue.

I don't think stalling is 'horrifically cruel' - they can face the other way in many stalls so they aren't facing the wall, and even if they face the wall all the time it is  different to a dog facing a wall, a dog's field of vision is 240 degrees compared to a horse's of 350 degrees and as I said before some horses actually have fewer stereotypical behaviours in comparison to their boxed counterparts, presumably due to the increased contact with other horses, which seems more important to them than being confined; so I'd suggest that if stalling is 'horrifically cruel' then so is stabling at all. Dogs also rely far more on human interaction than horses and they do get 'crated' which would be as restrictive as being tied up.

Food does not have to be available 24 hours a day, which could create problems for some horses, little and often is far better and water is fine if offered at regular intervals, although personally I'd provide water all the time.

I strongly suspect that these horses will have regular food, water and bedding as well as regular turn out/work over the winter which is certainly what most stabled horses will get.


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## Natch (2 October 2011)

Touchstone beat me to it on the field of vision thing. Horses cant actually see immediately in front of them, where the wall is if stalled in that direction. They can however see either side and back, where their mates and the bars are.

A well known equestrian college around here uses stalls. Theirs are cross tied on headcollars (they face outwards) and until last year had breast bars/straps, but we were forever disentangling hopeful escapees or ponies with itchy manes who got their heads underneath but couldn't get it back.  They do have water and bedding, and are in it for up to 8 hours, turned out at night. Then during the 8 hours they are brought out once for a muck out and groom, twice to be ridden for an hour, and usually at least once for some other student practical. 

What many contributors to this thread may not be taking into account is the time these horses are being worked. I would imagine they are out of the stall repeatedly fof that, and probably offered water at the end of each ride. The op has said they get hay at the beginning of each ride.


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## charlie76 (2 October 2011)

I can honestly say that ours cope with no issues,
some pics of our depressed stalled horses:



































































really miserable, as you can see!
I  can't see how anyone can say something is cruel without seeing the animals themselves!


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## LouandBee (2 October 2011)

Still do not agree that keeping horses stalled 24/7 over winter is acceptable - sorry but a nice pic of a few horses with a bit of hoof oil on is not going to change my mind on that one. In a stable is bad enough but from the OPs description, these horses cannot even turn round! If you went to view a yard and the only place to keep your horse all winter was a 4 ft x 10 ft stall I bet you would be walking away.

Anyway -off to see my horse now who after 2 weeks box rest is desperate to get in the field again. Or would she have been pefectly fine if it was a stall - i think not!


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## charlie76 (2 October 2011)

But if you actually read the first post the op stated that the horses will be ridden and having a walk out for a leg stretch. The same as ours do. Like the horses in the original post ours are ridden,  hand grazed and turned loose in the school when possible. The other alternative is to put them out in boggy clay field with no grass and hay squashed into the floor.When it pouring with rain and blowing a gale and They are up to their eyeballs in mud, that's when they look miserable
 To add to things,  our fields involve walking along roads. Impossible in snow and ice, therefore They have to be in
 They are out all year in the summer But come the winter months then needs must, as I imagine is the case for the farmer. 
Our inspectors wholeheartedly agree with the way we keep them. When They were out in clay all through the winter months they had far more medical issues then they ever do when they come in.


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## charlie76 (2 October 2011)

Just to add,  in a stalling system the dust and smell is far less as they Are in open barns rather than inclosed stables
. Also stalls that atr designed for the purpose are built on a slight slope allowing drainage
 They are still mucked out every day as a stable is and the horses are removed when mucked out.


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## MadBlackLab (2 October 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			Just because they tolerate it, doesnt mean they wouldn't prefer to be out in a field!  

Fairynuff - I totally agree about stopping treating horses like crystal therefore why dont people simply chuck them out in fields permanently?  Far less work for all involved.  Why do so many people wrap them in cotton wool by stabling / stalling all the time?
		
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Right MagicMelon you tell my 17yr old TB when its gale force wind and a hounding gale or icy and snowy he has to go out to his field as that its better for him and natural for him cause he would tell you different. When he dont want to go out he will stand at back of stable and with the door open and still wont come out. He has actually boken out the field to put himself back to his stable to get out of the bad weather cause that is what he wants. Even with 340g rug on he rather be wrapped up in cotton wool and stay in warm and the dry. He stayed in for 4 days straight last winter cause he didnt want to come out. That was his choice and he was very happy. Now call me cruel for letting him decided


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## charlie76 (2 October 2011)

handleycross- couldn't agree more!!
To add, when you are a commercial riding school it is near on impossible to keep horses that are out in mud pits clean, clipped, warm and well fed enough to do a job. By bringing them into the stalls ( ok, in an ideal world stables must do you know how much square footage it takes to house 40 horses in stables???) it means we are able to clip, rug and monitor the amount of hay, feed and water then eat.
The result is much healthier animals that hold their weight well.
Oh and we could argue that 'just because they tolerate being in a field in the mud and rain doesn't mean they wouldn't prefer in a stable!'


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## MadBlackLab (2 October 2011)

charlie 76 i totally agree and understand as have worked in RS it is easier and healthier. One horse I cared for was stabled when I first started and he was the sort of horse you wouldnt go in to the stable with, but in a stall he was like a lamb. In my eyes that was better for his well being and state of mind then being dangerous in a loose box


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## Clodagh (2 October 2011)

Haven't read it all but a few points:
A lot of horses who are in stables have their beds up during the day, or a small day bed down, they stand on concrete most of the time so no different to standing in a stall.
People who say horses must have access to water at all times I assume you never go for a days hunting, or even a long hack?
As someone said at the start, think of horses in Morocco, if his horses look well and are calm and happy then they are being treated OK.


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## charlie76 (2 October 2011)

I think its wrong to state what makes a horse happy or unhappy anyway. Surely the proof is in the pudding. If a horse looks well, has a good coat, is fit, well, healthy and happy in its work then they must feel happy and well enough it themselves. I have seen plenty of evidently happy horses living in stables and stalls and likewise out in the field but I have seen plenty that are unhappy in both situations.
IME, its the management of each horse that matters, each INDIVIDUAL horse. If we had a horse that was desperatley unhappy in the way we keep them we would sell the horse on. 
But TBH, most adapt to the routine quite happily.

Horses tolerate a lot of things, having a rider on their back is one of them! As is being driven, jumping fences ect ect. I imagine having a rider on it is the biggest form of toleration they go through!


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## Fiagai (2 October 2011)

Some horse stalls


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## touchstone (2 October 2011)

There are the Queen's stalls too:- http://www.ivydra.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/img_2751.jpg


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## Tharg (2 October 2011)

vickyb said:



			I have worked with working carriage horses. They were out at night - tethered, which was the most economical way to use the grass (the tethers were moved a few feet each day, so they always had fresh grass each night). In the morning they came into their stalls, were fed and groomed and then worked all day. They were watered at specific times during the day, and had no access to water in their stalls. In the winter this routine was reversed (although they didn't work much in the winter - it was a summer tourist thing) These horses were exceptionally fit and happy, they loved their routine, and were most upset if it changed. So there are two big current no-no's; tethering and stalling!
		
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  Hello vickyb I suppose this is a question to anyone who tethers in the field as I am unfamiliar with it myself.  How were they tethered and what stopped the lead from getting wrapped around their legs or did they have enough sense?

  I used to be against stalls but feel that I am more informed after reading this thread.  Thanks all.


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## amandap (2 October 2011)

Keeping horses this way for more than the odd day/night is not I believe in their best interests.
I'm sure they appreciate the lovely decor in some of the set ups pictured though.


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## FairyLights (2 October 2011)

Its ok to keep horses stalled provided they have enough food and water and exercise on a regular routine basis. What is wrong is keeping horses stalled all winter and not turned out or ridden at all. my late in laws kept cows,they were tied up in a stall each from october til May ,no bedding given unless they were actually carving. they even carved tied up in the stall.  they were fed hay and cow corn twice a day and mucked out twice a day. they had automatic waterers. they were turned out to grass in May of each year. 
I suspect the farmer in the OP's original post is keeping his horses like this.  This is wrong and needs to be reported.


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## touchstone (2 October 2011)

Horsesforever1 said:



			Its ok to keep horses stalled provided they have enough food and water and exercise on a regular routine basis. What is wrong is keeping horses stalled all winter and not turned out or ridden at all. my late in laws kept cows,they were tied up in a stall each from october til May ,no bedding given unless they were actually carving. they even carved tied up in the stall.  they were fed hay and cow corn twice a day and mucked out twice a day. they had automatic waterers. they were turned out to grass in May of each year. 
I suspect the farmer in the OP's original post is keeping his horses like this.  This is wrong and needs to be reported.
		
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The OP has said that the horses are ridden once a day and turned out for a leg stretch, so they aren't in 24/7, and I would imagine that they will be hayed/fed/watered and bedded down as necessary.


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## DragonSlayer (2 October 2011)

Horsesforever1 said:



			Its ok to keep horses stalled provided they have enough food and water and exercise on a regular routine basis. What is wrong is keeping horses stalled all winter and not turned out or ridden at all. my late in laws kept cows,they were tied up in a stall each from october til May ,no bedding given unless they were actually carving. they even carved tied up in the stall.  they were fed hay and cow corn twice a day and mucked out twice a day. they had automatic waterers. they were turned out to grass in May of each year. 
I suspect the farmer in the OP's original post is keeping his horses like this.  This is wrong and needs to be reported.
		
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The OP was very clear I feel, in saying the horses were out in the field at night.


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## MadBlackLab (2 October 2011)

So for all the people who are against stalling horses are you going to start on the queen next!!!!!!!!!


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## FionaM12 (3 October 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			Wow, Im shocked at some of the reponses on here saying its fine and perfectly normal.  Just because the horses look fit and well doesnt mean they're not mentally trying to kill themselves!  QUOTE]

I don't really understand this comment. How else can we tell that a horse is mentally well other than looking at its condition and behaviour? These horses are described by the OP as calm, well behaved, happy to canter in from the field, and playful. If you think a horse thus described could be "mentally trying to kill themselves" surely that could be true of any of our horses?
		
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## FionaM12 (3 October 2011)

How odd, why didn't the quote thingie work?!


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## FairyLights (3 October 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			The OP was very clear I feel, in saying the horses were out in the field at night.
		
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Yes at the moment but what happens when the winter comes?


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## rhino (3 October 2011)

FionaM12 said:



			How odd, why didn't the quote thingie work?!
		
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You missed out the [/ in front of the second 'QUOTE'


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## MadBlackLab (3 October 2011)

LouandBee said:



			Still do not agree that keeping horses stalled 24/7 over winter is acceptable - sorry but a nice pic of a few horses with a bit of hoof oil on is not going to change my mind on that one. In a stable is bad enough but from the OPs description, these horses cannot even turn round! If you went to view a yard and the only place to keep your horse all winter was a 4 ft x 10 ft stall I bet you would be walking away.

Anyway -off to see my horse now who after 2 weeks box rest is desperate to get in the field again. Or would she have been pefectly fine if it was a stall - i think not!
		
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In the pictures u can see these horses are healthy and well by their coats. Lovely glossy coat not something you see in a unhappy mis-treated horse


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## Oberon (3 October 2011)

IMO stalls are OK for a short amount of time as long as they have bedding enough to provide safe traction and access to hay and water.

Keeping horses like that all day is just not acceptable to me. Queen or not, I would vote with my feet.

Horses adapt and survive. It doesn't make them content.

The fact that it was the old fashioned way means nothing to me. It's the old fashioned way for a reason.

If the farmer wanted to save his fields for the winter, then a track system would be a much better way to keep them for the night.


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## DragonSlayer (3 October 2011)

Horsesforever1 said:



			Yes at the moment but what happens when the winter comes?
		
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What about it? Afraid they might melt in the rain? I'm betting they stick to the same rountine. In during the day, out at night.


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## rhino (3 October 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			What about it? Afraid they might melt in the rain? I'm betting they stick to the same rountine. In during the day, out at night.
		
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Except OP said:


Horsesgalore said:



			It hasn't bothered me much until I found out today that in a month or so they'll be in all the time.
		
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And reiterated this in a later post



Horsesgalore said:



			I'd started worrying about the way they're kept, especially when I was told they will be in those stalls most of the day and all night soon. 

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And again



Horsesgalore said:



			He said they'll be coming in in a month or so, and I asked do they get stables and he said no, they stay in their stalls.  

Someone who's been going there longer told me the horses usually get to wander about the farmyard a bit each day, but not go out into the fields during the winter.
		
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## touchstone (3 October 2011)

The op has said that in winter they will be turned out for a leg stretch and ridden once a day, which is as much as some horses in loose boxes get tbh; and considering that there are fewer stereotypical behaviours in stalled horses I don't think that stalling is the evil that some seem to think. In some ways I feel it may well be better for certain  horses than isolated stabling.

A surfaced track system would be expensive for the farmer to install and would still leave the ponies wet if they needed to be worked.  I think that the majority of horses thrive on routine and providing they have their needs of being fed, watered, exercised with regular turnout and companionship I think they will probably be quite happy.

As I have previously said, I've seen stalled working horses that are apparently very healthy, happy and content.


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## DragonSlayer (3 October 2011)

rhino said:



			Except OP said:


And reiterated this in a later post



And again






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Ah yes, I missed that...apologies, should have gone back to read again, but just sat down from work with a cuppa!

I still don't see the wrong in it. I was brought up with horses in stalls. We offered them water regulalry, and they had hay as well, but NOT a full net all day, just small amounts to keep something in their stomachs.

This way of stabling has been used for 100's of years......are we now to suddenly decide it is wrong?


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## Wagtail (3 October 2011)

Well we also used to send children up chimneys and cane them in school...

We also used to use the same saddle on all the horses because it was the comfiest to ride in and break them in just by sitting on them one day out of the blue (well that was before my time!). 

My grandfather used to keep the cows in these stalls all winter and they had to take it in turns with the neighbouring cow to lie down as there wasn't the space for two. They stayed chained up all winter, day and night and just had the milking machine on them twice daily. Cows are still often kept this way. Is it right?


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## Cortez (3 October 2011)

Horses used to be worked HARD, and needed their rest in either a stall or loosebox with concentrated feed in preference to an open field and having to forage for themselves. Horses nowadays are very rarely worked, or even exercised adequately, at all, are overfed huge amounts of highly starchy, sugary food and often have a chronic build up of excess energy which leads to illnessness, uncontrollable excitement.....and frightened riders. That is the diference between "long ago" and nowadays. Different job; different management practices and ideas of what is acceptable.


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## MadBlackLab (3 October 2011)

ALERT ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My field like concrete and my horses are out SHOT ME NOW


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## Pedantic (3 October 2011)

We used to send little boys up chimneys as well, seems things moved on as we "apparently" became more intelligent......


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## MadBlackLab (3 October 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Well we also used to send children up chimneys and cane them in school...QUOTE]

Think caneing should be brought back
		
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## foxy1 (3 October 2011)

Really??? 

There are people on here who think it's ok to keep horses in a stall, tied so they cannot turn around, for the winter?

And your reasoning is because we used to keep horses like this 100 years ago (when horses were out working ALL day and had a much shorter lifespan because of their lifestyle)

Wow. Unbelieveable.


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## Mince Pie (3 October 2011)

HandleyCross said:





Wagtail said:



			Well we also used to send children up chimneys and cane them in school...QUOTE]

Think caneing should be brought back
		
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so glad you said that!
		
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## DragonSlayer (3 October 2011)

Oh my lord.....

If the horses are getting exercised, fed, watered and all their needs attended to....then I think they are doing a bit better than some of the poor buggers you see left in a field starving, with not a blade of grass to be seen, or so fat, they can hardly move....


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## rhino (3 October 2011)

foxy1 said:



			Really??? 

There are people on here who think it's ok to keep horses in a stall, tied so they cannot turn around, for the winter?

And your reasoning is because we used to keep horses like this 100 years ago (when horses were out working ALL day and had a much shorter lifespan because of their lifestyle)

Wow. Unbelieveable.
		
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But they have shiny coats so they _must_ be okay 

Personally I wouldn't want my horse kept like this, the same way I wouldn't choose to not turn him out for at least a few hours a day, even if he had a huge stable


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## rhino (3 October 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			Oh my lord.....

If the horses are getting exercised, fed, watered and all their needs attended to....then I think they are doing a bit better than some of the poor buggers you see left in a field starving, with not a blade of grass to be seen, or so fat, they can hardly move....
		
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I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise! Just because it's not the _worst_ way to keep a horse doesn't mean it's the _best_ way either  I think it is good that people question things and don't automatically accept them just because they are _traditional_.


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## FionaM12 (3 October 2011)

rhino said:



			I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise! Just because it's not the _worst_ way to keep a horse doesn't mean it's the _best_ way either  I think it is good that people question things and don't automatically accept them just because they are _traditional_.
		
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The OP isn't asking "is this the best way?" though, he/she is asking "is it okay?". I think most people would think the method described isn't ideal otherwise most horses would still be kept that way!

What most here seem to be saying is that there's not much evidence to say horses are any less content. The OP can enjoy his/her rides with an easy conscience!


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## DragonSlayer (3 October 2011)

FionaM12 said:



			The OP isn't asking "is this the best way?" though, he/she is asking "is it okay?". I think most people would think the method described isn't ideal otherwise most horses would still be kept that way!

What most here seem to be saying is that there's not much evidence to say horses are any less content. The OP can enjoy his/her rides with an easy conscience!
		
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One of the most sensible replies on here I reckon...


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## Pedantic (3 October 2011)

Mmmmmm, let me think, mentally and physically designed by nature or God to wander about in open spaces in a herd, graze regularly for their complicated digestive system,  so I know what's a good idea, lets tie them up inside in a small area on hard ground with no water and chuck some food in now and again, brilliant idea, I'm a uman beeeen, I'm fik as chit arr am..........


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## rhino (3 October 2011)

FionaM12 said:



			The OP isn't asking "is this the best way?" though, he/she is asking "is it okay?". I think most people would think the method described isn't ideal otherwise most horses would still be kept that way!

What most here seem to be saying is that there's not much evidence to say horses are any less content. The OP can enjoy his/her rides with an easy conscience!
		
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I absolutely agree! But I do think the 'oh my lord...' comment was OTT. I'm sure the OP can decide for herself (and with information she has been given) if it is 'ok'; that doesn't mean the discussion that followed is not justified. Just because a horse is not 'at death's door' with neglect doesn't mean improvements can't be made and different opinions given


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## DragonSlayer (3 October 2011)

rhino said:



			I absolutely agree! But I do think the 'oh my lord...' comment was OTT. I'm sure the OP can decide for herself (and with information she has been given) if it is 'ok'; that doesn't mean the discussion that followed is not justified. Just because a horse is not 'at death's door' with neglect doesn't mean improvements can't be made and different opinions given

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....and I think the 'Wow. Unbelievable' comment was also OTT. However, we could go round in circles all night, so I'll go with Fionas comment....


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## lastchancer (3 October 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			Oh my lord.....

If the horses are getting exercised, fed, watered and all their needs attended to....then I think they are doing a bit better than some of the poor buggers you see left in a field starving, with not a blade of grass to be seen, or so fat, they can hardly move....
		
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My thoughts exactly, not ideal but they are obviously cared about & given what they need, and that's much more than a lot of horses get. And not just abroad, for example the Amersham horses *Starved To Death* in what should have been a very comfortable barn system did they not.


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## touchstone (4 October 2011)

I think many are also reacting to the opinion that it was 'horrifically cruel' to keep a horse this way, and as the evidence also suggests that loose box stabling can be worse mentally for a horse because of the lack of equine contact,  looking at stalling from the horses point of view rather than ours, then perhaps we should all be questioning how happy our stabled horses are?


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