# Foxhounds at Crufts



## avthechav (13 March 2011)

Flicking through the channels today and in the houndy type class (can you tell than I know nothing about showing!) there was a fox hound, a deer hound and several others.  Now the fox hound doesnt bear a much resemblance to the fox hounds that I see actually working (as to be expected), however was thinking that surely the hunts breed fox hounds to the correct standard, and the hunts show fairly prolifically ie Peterborough, and spend a lot of time looking at breeding lines, how come we do not see a sample of fox hounds from hunts at shows like Crufts?....I can understand why hunts themselves do not show at crufts (faff in the end of the season and few working hounds are in 'show condition') but surely if as a breed standard you are judging against the 'perfect' hound, the hunts must have this nailed? Could this be a way to raise the profile of hunts and foxhounds to the public?

*disclaimer- I know nothing about showing or foxhounds, this is just a lazy Sunday observation whilst I am putting off planning lessons for tomorrow!*


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## Maesfen (13 March 2011)

You have to qualify for Crufts as a start and I don't believe (very willing to be corrected) that the Kennel Club accept hound breeding as being registered so all hunt hounds are ineligible.  More fool them as most hound breeding goes back (and can be verified too) to the mid 1700s so more likely far longer than a lot of other breeds that are registed KC.
Wasn't a very nice specimen though, would love to know the breeding as hounds aren't meant to be sold to Joe Public at all.


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## avthechav (13 March 2011)

...how interesting if you are right about the KC not recognising the hunt bred hounds seeing as though these are the 'real hounds!'. I wouldnt have thought there could be concerns about inpure bloodlines, as like you say the bloodlines can be traced back a very long way....i guess that would be a bit like the FEI not recognising Weatherby's passports (or somthing along those lines!!)  

I also didnt know that you couldnt sell foxhounds to the general public- everyday is a school day!!


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## druid (13 March 2011)

The Foxhounds at Crufts all belong to one breeder - Rosemary Griffiths. To my knowledge she is the only breeder of KC registered foxhounds in the UK. 

The hounds are from crosses of American lines and the North Staffs and Beaufort packs. Some have hunted before showing (Daresbury)


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## Maesfen (13 March 2011)

druid said:



			The Foxhounds at Crufts all belong to one breeder - Rosemary Griffiths. To my knowledge she is the only breeder of KC registered foxhounds in the UK. 

The hounds are from crosses of American lines and the North Staffs and Beaufort packs. Some have hunted before showing (Daresbury)
		
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Well, there's nothing wrong in guaranteeing you'll get to the Group judging I suppose but would seem like a very hollow victory to me. 

I knew the original ones were either American or Australian, they weren't great specimens either.  Don't know whether it's still the same or not but it used to be the official rule that hounds couldn't be sold to Joe Public; they could be drafted to other packs but not sold for showing or as pets, at least in the British Isles which is why they were originally imported.  If they are from recognised lines, then that should be the only way they've got around it.


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## druid (13 March 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Well, there's nothing wrong in guaranteeing you'll get to the Group judging I suppose but would seem like a very hollow victory to me. 

I knew the original ones were either American or Australian, they weren't great specimens either.  Don't know whether it's still the same or not but it used to be the official rule that hounds couldn't be sold to Joe Public; they could be drafted to other packs but not sold for showing or as pets, at least in the British Isles which is why they were originally imported.  If they are from recognised lines, then that should be the only way they've got around it.
		
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She uses her own bitches from (originally) American lines and uses stud dogs from active packs. I'm not sure how that works with KC registering or how some hunt before showing.


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## EAST KENT (13 March 2011)

Quite simply dog showing is beneath any huntsman ,and well beneath any working foxhound.The ones a Ch dog shows are`nt that good,compared to the real deals at proper Hound Shows.
  Well remember our huntsman`s astonishment (and disdain) that our show dogs were on LEADS,for goodness sake! Also can remember MY astonishment ar Crufts some years ago to see a woman in a mock red coat complete with mock tan topped boots with a foxhound on a check chain .It was`nt a great speciman ,and it`s feet were not arched or deep enough.No doubt she thought she looked grand, but to me it demeaned the poor foxhound.
  They are working hounds ..not cur dogs for silly dog shows.


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## doodleberry (13 March 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Quite simply dog showing is beneath any huntsman ,and well beneath any working foxhound.The ones a Ch dog shows are`nt that good,compared to the real deals at proper Hound Shows.
  Well remember our huntsman`s astonishment (and disdain) that our show dogs were on LEADS,for goodness sake! Also can remember MY astonishment ar Crufts some years ago to see a woman in a mock red coat complete with mock tan topped boots with a foxhound on a check chain .It was`nt a great speciman ,and it`s feet were not arched or deep enough.No doubt she thought she looked grand, but to me it demeaned the poor foxhound.
  They are working hounds ..not cur dogs for silly dog shows.
		
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but what about peterborough etc ?? they certainly show on leads there but i suppose they are around like minded people!! i do know a terrierman who used to show at crufts and do very well with his terriers


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## Maesfen (13 March 2011)

doodleberry said:



			but what about peterborough etc ?? they certainly show on leads there but i suppose they are around like minded people!! i do know a terrierman who used to show at crufts and do very well with his terriers
		
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Hounds are shown quite differently from those at normal dog shows.  Yes, they might be on a lead or couples, but the whip would be holding them, the huntsman would be in front engaging them so they are looking and standing alertly; this would not be allowed at Crufts.  Other than the dedicated hound shows such as Peterborough, Honiton, Harrogate, Ardingley, Builth, Rydal and so on) normal dog shows don't allow for hounds to be shown loose which is when you'll see the more natural flowing athletic action of the hounds than when they're on leads and are the highlights of the classes.


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## avthechav (13 March 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			They are working hounds ..not cur dogs for silly dog shows.
		
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...isnt this the case for any breed though...just looking at the labs and spaniels- they dont look or act like the working dogs that you see beating...and the greyhound certainly didnt look like the racing dogs.

I get the point about the showing technique being different with the loose part of the show, and I think it would be quite amusing if they did attempt this at Crufts....Im thinking that the owners might want to hang on to some of those fluffy toy dogs


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## doodleberry (13 March 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Hounds are shown quite differently from those at normal dog shows.  Yes, they might be on a lead or couples, but the whip would be holding them, the huntsman would be in front engaging them so they are looking and standing alertly; this would not be allowed at Crufts.  Other than the dedicated hound shows such as Peterborough, Honiton, Harrogate, Ardingley, Builth, Rydal and so on) normal dog shows don't allow for hounds to be shown loose which is when you'll see the more natural flowing athletic action of the hounds than when they're on leads and are the highlights of the classes.
		
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well crufts is quite silly then isnt it how can you see how good a hound or dog is without letting them be ? it would be like a horse show where everyone stood still !


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## mad4foxhounds (13 March 2011)

Hello first off, 
I believe ignorance is of people is due to lack of understanding in a subject, so please allow me to shed some light on the subject of show type foxhounds. 
The Foxhound standard 2009 for the current show type (as you put it), happens to be taken from the MHFA standard. So the hound you saw on TV is judged to the same standard as the Peterborough judging of the hounds, 
As in hunts, breeders have their own type, what lines they like to breed from, so you will see a difference of type-colour in the ring as you would do at any hunt hound show. 
Their ability to work is always put first, with many true breeders using active hunt foxhounds to sire their litters. This helps the gene pool and to ensure that the hounds they are breeding are true to type as possible, all True show foxhounds are able to complete a days work. With many in the show ring doing so. 

With many hunts in the UK being of want is classed as modern type, the old English type is different colour  and slight heaver in bone to the modern foxhound, often very eye catching  to those who havent seen it before.
The kennel Club Do allow Hunt Hounds to show at their events,- with many hounds in past years being entered. So the information posted above is not true, however just because a Foxhound has a hunt kennel name doesnt ensure that that hound matches the standard any closer to the show foxhound next to it in the ring.
Many a huntsman will chose only their best hounds to go to MFHA Shows, as a hounds ability to hunt and look true comes into question then, 
However out in the field many huntsman and hunt staff often prefer a hound that may have a curly stern or slightly narrower head, as they really only want something that can hunt well and fast. 

True Many Hunts will not sell to the public however, they can lose or draft hounds out to other places which then get lost and end up being re-homed to families etc these hounds are given the chance to enjoy life in a different way, showing their owners that Foxhounds are beautiful, intelligent friendly brave and social(list goes on).

I am Foxhound Welfare UKs National coordinator in rescue and re-homing, we aim to help in the education of the public, re-train, treat, rescue and re-home foxhounds that come to us in need, 
Many of our foxhounds arent from MFHA hunts (not tattooed) or breeders, but are still very much foxhounds. 

If you would like to learn more than please contact me.


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## avthechav (13 March 2011)

mad4foxhounds said:



			Hello first off, 
I believe ignorance is of people is due to lack of understanding in a subject, so please allow me to shed some light on the subject of show type foxhounds.
		
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Please forgive my 'ignorance', I did say in my OP that I know nothing I was just idley observing!!

Thats interesting re the 2009 standard, and it would make sense as the hunts are the expert breeders along with the show producers.  And I get what you are saying about the selective breeding for different terrains and also personal preferances having an effect.  I guess it is a little like some racing TBs who have awful confo against the TB standard and yet are inexplicably awesome.

I did not know anything about your organisation previously so thanks for enlightening me


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## rosie fronfelen (13 March 2011)

mad4fh just to say that  not all registered hounds are tattooed.


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## Alec Swan (13 March 2011)

*FOXHOUNDS AT CRUTFS?.......FFS,  WHAT NEXT?*

Alec.


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## Binkle&Flip (13 March 2011)

Alec Swan said:



*FOXHOUNDS AT CRUTFS?.......FFS,  WHAT NEXT?*

Alec.
		
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 Watch out for Rosie and Fiagai, the abbreviation police with that one Alec


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## Alec Swan (13 March 2011)

Binkle&Flip said:



 Watch out for Rosie and Fiagai, the abbreviation police with that one Alec 

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A couple of years ago,  and whilst reading a totally different discussion,  I read that someone pointed out,  to another,  that the mark of a person loosing an argument,  was when they started to pick up on spelling, or grammatical errors.

I apologise for my mistakes.  Read,  Mark,  Learn, then Inwardly Digest,  and you may end up apologising for yours! 

Alec.


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## Fiagai (13 March 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			A couple of years ago,  and whilst reading a totally different discussion,  I read that someone pointed out,  to another,  that the mark of a person loosing an argument,  was when they started to pick up on spelling, or grammatical errors.

I apologise for my mistakes.  Read,  Mark,  Learn, then Inwardly Digest,  and you may end up apologising for yours! 

Alec.
		
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Alec may be making an exclamation but is not telling someone to go **** themselves.

A big difference methinks.  And do remember that offending post was deleted by the Forum Moderaor - not by other forum members.  Jeez someone just cant get over themselves!


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## Dazzleby (13 March 2011)

The Best of Breed Foxhound at Cruft's this year is Dazzleby Dandelion, and she is owned, handled and bred by me, and if the pack responsible for letting me use their stallion hound on my bitch had their choice, she would have been hunting with their pack.  It was quite evident from a very young age that this hound was destined to become a star.  She has already had numerous awards, and is highly regarded in knowledgeable circles.  She is a beautiful, elegant and correct hound.  It is rather sad that some on this forum dismiss her so callously, when knowing nothing of her breeding or background.

I have been striving for many years to promote both Foxhounds and Foxhunting both in the UK and in Europe.

Incidently,  Dandelion is by the Duke of Beaufort's Milton, and she would hunt for England if you let her.


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## Serenity087 (14 March 2011)

I'm so glad to see you, Dazzleby, I've been watching your hounds at crufts for years.  Was going to point out yours are very much still true to the english hunting hound breeding!

I have to wonder, as the OP knows not very much, was it definitely a foxhound?  Hamilton stovare can look decievingly close if you don't know what you're looking at... and some of the other breeds do as well... 

Also, as I've just been looking at Dazzleby's website, I urge others to have a look... You'll spot photos of some of their hounds in hunt kennels... seems a bit bizarre if they're that poorly bred...


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## druid (14 March 2011)

Hi Rosemary,

I'd like to point out that I'm delighted to see Foxhounds at Crufts and used to enjoy seeing the Dazzleby dogs over this side of the pond for the Easter show (I believe some even earned thier green star?)


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## combat_claire (14 March 2011)

There has been a lot of debate recently in the shooting press regarding whether the breed standards as set out by the Kennel Club have become too exaggerated to allow the breed in question to actually complete a day on a shoot. There was huge concern that labradors and retrievers in their show strains bore little resemblance to the lean types you would see picking up or beating. 

I note that the MFHA is partially responsible for setting the breed standard but I believe that at Crufts the hounds are not shown off lead. If this is correct how can the breeder be showing the free movement and good action that is so key to a hunting hound's conformation. 

I whip in for a pack of mink hounds and we take our hounds to two shows every year - both affiliated to the Masters of Mink Hounds Association. In this we are expected to show our hounds standing on the flags individually, to let them off their couples and demonstrate their action before in the final element they are assessed against other entrants in the class. We have been hugely successful at showing in recent years, but we never forget that our hounds primary job is to work on the hunting field.


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## rosie fronfelen (14 March 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			A couple of years ago,  and whilst reading a totally different discussion,  I read that someone pointed out,  to another,  that the mark of a person loosing an argument,  was when they started to pick up on spelling, or grammatical errors.

I apologise for my mistakes.  Read,  Mark,  Learn, then Inwardly Digest,  and you may end up apologising for yours! 

Alec.
		
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looks like you have a new fan Alec, lol-you mind out for that nasty ringleader, Rosie , and the initial fiend, Fiagai.


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## EAST KENT (14 March 2011)

As Alec says FFSake!! Never forgotten that woman in imitation hunt servant dress, such an insult to a marvellous working breed. 
  Often though you do get this in dog showing, using a "rare" or imported breed for hollow victories.


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## Dazzleby (14 March 2011)

Hi Druid,

I always enjoy taking my hounds to Ireland, you guys always give me a warm welcome, and I love galloping them on your beaches.
Yes I have 2 Irish Champions, and Dandelion has been twice as a puppy, were she had Puppy Group 1 and 2.  I brought her brother to the European Winner Show in Dublin where he was runner up for the Group.  He is a very useful hound. 
As you probably know, Druid, my background is foxhounds and hunting, and I have walked more hounds than most people have had hot dinners, and also whelped a fair few bitches.  I am a very good judge of what is right in a hound too.
I do not dress up like a Huntsman, nor do I show them on a tight lead.  Heaven forbid. 

What I do is Champion the Foxhound and Foxhunting. Long may it live.


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## Binkle&Flip (14 March 2011)

Fiagai said:



			Alec may be making an exclamation but is not telling someone to go **** themselves.

A big difference methinks.  And do remember that offending post was deleted by the Forum Moderaor - not by other forum members.  Jeez someone just cant get over themselves!
		
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Jeez some people have absolutely no sense of humour whatsoever!


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## Binkle&Flip (14 March 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			A couple of years ago,  and whilst reading a totally different discussion,  I read that someone pointed out,  to another,  that the mark of a person loosing an argument,  was when they started to pick up on spelling, or grammatical errors.

I apologise for my mistakes.  Read,  Mark,  Learn, then Inwardly Digest,  and you may end up apologising for yours! 

Alec.
		
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Yep. No sense of humour either!


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## Binkle&Flip (14 March 2011)

rosiefronfelen said:



			looks like you have a new fan Alec, lol-you mind out for that nasty ringleader, Rosie , and the initial fiend, Fiagai.
		
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Oh rosiefronfelen you are less their ringleader and they are more your support group I think my dear.


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## Fiagai (14 March 2011)

Insulting Forum Members and having postings deleted by the Forum Moderator after you told  a poster them to go **** themselves hardly engenders your brand of *humour*


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## rosie fronfelen (14 March 2011)

Binkle&Flip said:



			Oh rosiefronfelen you are less their ringleader and they are more your support group I think my dear.
		
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you have a short memory, my dear-go back to 5/3/11- according to you i have taken charge of the asylum- oh joy-


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## Binkle&Flip (14 March 2011)

Not a short memory thankfully. Simply a greater understanding of the situation since that time.


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## rosie fronfelen (14 March 2011)

Binkle&Flip said:



			Not a short memory thankfully. Simply a greater understanding of the situation since that time.
		
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aye, such a long time ago-9 days?


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## Binkle&Flip (14 March 2011)

A long time in forum politics


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## avthechav (14 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			The Best of Breed Foxhound at Cruft's this year is Dazzleby Dandelion, and she is owned, handled and bred by me, and if the pack responsible for letting me use their stallion hound on my bitch had their choice, she would have been hunting with their pack.  It was quite evident from a very young age that this hound was destined to become a star.  She has already had numerous awards, and is highly regarded in knowledgeable circles.  She is a beautiful, elegant and correct hound.  It is rather sad that some on this forum dismiss her so callously, when knowing nothing of her breeding or background.

I have been striving for many years to promote both Foxhounds and Foxhunting both in the UK and in Europe.

Incidently,  Dandelion is by the Duke of Beaufort's Milton, and she would hunt for England if you let her.
		
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Hi Dazzleby- thats so much for posting.  That is really interesting and puts my mind at rest that yes in fact there is a direct link between hunting and the foxhound showing!..as for dismissing your hound, I yet again will just say that I know nothing, I was simply observing the differences btwn your bitch and thh hounds from my local hunt!- however as the poster from the foxhound rehoming association pointed out the difference that my untrained eye are seeing are likely to be due to individual blood lines favoured with particular hunts.

So was the other poster correct in saying that your breeding bitch was imported from abroad?...and also DO the KC recognise all hunt bred hounds, as someone suggested that they may not?

Many congratulations on your weekend it sounds like you had a well deserving successful outing!

...and I love the poster who suggested that I may not have actually been looking at a fox hound hahahaha, I may be idle and ignorant but I can read the legend on the bottom of the screen as well as having hunted...well at least a few times!


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## EAST KENT (14 March 2011)

Then let the poor bitch hunt for Lordy`s sake!


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## muffinino (14 March 2011)

As an aside, why are foxhounds ineligible for CCs at Crufts or other dog shows? Is it because they also have hound shows? It was mentioned that they cannot become Champions but not why. Genuine question, please don't flame me!


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## EAST KENT (15 March 2011)

There is not enough interest in them to have gained enough numbers involved in showing them at KC shows,simply. Most times I have looked at a catalogue and it has been one or two per class,you need to generate a lot more than that to get the KC to issue Challenge Certificates for a breed. 
  Maybe also the KC consider they have their own shows and indeed are a different world to show dogs, just as most hunting people would think as well.


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## muffinino (15 March 2011)

Thank you for replying, EK, it was bugging me


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## Dazzleby (16 March 2011)

I have posted images of some of my hounds in action in the photo section.    Two of the pics show the remarkable action of the foxhound at full stretch, and were taken during a visit to Holland.   Incidently Daresbury's full brother Darkwood has been used on a number of occasions, as his is an outstanding hunting hound, and his progeny can be seen in the hunting field.   Daresbury although he is now 8yrs old put up a very fine performance at Cruft's and gained Reserve Best Dog to my young doghound by Milton.

Daresbury has had the most amazing life, not only has he hunted for several seasons, he has travelled through Europe on many occasions, and in 2006 we visited Poland staying for 5 days to compete at The World Show in Poznan. He was shortlisited down to the final Best 10 scent hounds in the world.  He adores his life, and has been a great ambassador for the breed.

This is Dazzleby Foxhounds showing the world how great the Foxhound is.


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## mad4foxhounds (18 March 2011)

you will find that part of the main reason for the Kennel club not awarding our breed CC's is the fact it comes down to money...over seas kennel clubs  able you and your hound to win equivalent to CCs. and there are even less out side of uk being shown, with maybe apart from Australia.
  yes many foxhounds are on the mfha stud book ect, but the true breeders and enthusiasts do believe this breed shouldnt be over bred, and that the breed has been top secret for years, those who are able to gain a foxhound trust and love are rewarded, and those that cant tell people the breed is thick and can only do one thing, happily i have proved these people wrong with more than one hound, in more than one times,


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## Alec Swan (18 March 2011)

I wonder if there will be those who would agree with me,  when I say that the Show Bench,  en masse,  are responsible for the bulk of the damage done to the bulk of our breeds.

I've always assumed,  obviously wrongly,  that disciplined Masters have refused to allow their hounds to be used,  outside of hunting.  They seem to have found their way to Crufts.

I also wonder *Dazzleby*,  if in 10 years,  or less,  when we see hounds and probably in haute couture couples,  being paraded around Knightsbridge,  by those who would require the right accessaries,  then you may just realise the damage which you are doing.

They're hounds.  They aren't pets.  They're going to be sort out by those who have no possible comprehension of the canine mind,  or worse still,  that of the hound.

Have you plans to sell on the puppies which you produce?  If you're linked up to showing,  then presumably you will.  I understand that you'll be super selective,  when it comes to deciding who may be eligible to have one of your pups,  but the problem will come,  when your selected customer,  decides that money matters,  and there is a flood of unsuitable puppies being sold to unsuitable owners.

It may be that I've completely missed the concept of the Foxhound and Crufts.  I will be more than happy to be corrected.

Alec.


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## JanetGeorge (18 March 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			I wonder if there will be those who would agree with me,  when I say that the Show Bench,  en masse,  are responsible for the bulk of the damage done to the bulk of our breeds.

I've always assumed,  obviously wrongly,  that disciplined Masters have refused to allow their hounds to be used,  outside of hunting.  They seem to have found their way to Crufts.
		
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I'd agree with you 100%!  And I'd go further - the Kennel Club wants shooting, en masse, for what they've ALLOWED to happen to many breeds!

I believe that the original 'show' foxhounds (and the ones I've seen couldn't catch a cold!) originated from Australia (and presumably were rejects from the packs they were in originally!)  Australian foxhounds originally came from the UK, of course, and hounds have been exported by some very 'respectable' hunts here to Australian packs.

What happened after then ......

I had little to do with foxhunting in Australia - I was more into showjumping and eventing in my youth - but one pack (which will remain nameless) I DID see a bit of and frankly, they were the most ghastly lot of ill-disciplined hounds I have EVER seen - with a huntsman who didn't have a CLUE about pack control!

I would shudder if any 'pet' foxhounds came from THAT pack!


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## JanetGeorge (18 March 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			They're hounds.  They aren't pets.  They're going to be sort out by those who have no possible comprehension of the canine mind,  or worse still,  that of the hound.
		
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On THAT point, I have a 'pet' foxhound - or rather a foxhound cross Lab (or as a friend described it, Fetch & Destroy!)  Before I got her, she had been re-homed 5 times!!!  She came from the Manchester area and I would guess she was the result of a liaison between a Lab bitch and a wandering Fell hound!







She had 'issues' - still does!  A couple of years ago I saw a picture of a dog I believe was from the same litter - right age and location - and in the hands of the RSPCA.  At least two dogs - from the same litter - in rescue situations!  That suggests something!!


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## Maesfen (18 March 2011)

I so agree with both Janet and Alec.  
Hounds are beautiful, intelligent animals but they do not deserve to languish as pets or show dogs, they should be doing what they have been bred for, for hundreds of years.  I do have to wonder what the Masters (who I know of quite well) were thinking of letting a pet/show hound be mated to one of their stallion hounds, but then again, knowing them, perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.


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## EAST KENT (19 March 2011)

Completely agree with you..and I show my mini bull terriers extensively at Champ Shows too. BUT,the Foxhound is NOT a pet dog suitable for a show dog existence,my hounds that were walked here all needed more to life than an ordinary home could provide..they needed ,by nine months, to stretch their minds and bodies.
   As for "gaining a foxhounds trust"...none of mine were the least bit distrustful and were great friends,yes I was Boss .till huntsman took over,but certainly I had their trust.


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## rosie fronfelen (19 March 2011)

I totally agree with all these views- Foxhounds have their festival at Peterborough and Builth in Wales,Crufts is not the place for them at all, i dread to think what our small hairies would think of it all, all they want to do is hit the hills and hunt.


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## Fiagai (19 March 2011)

I do believe there is a problem with working breeds versus Pets.   Many traditional working dogs were bred for a temperament suited to work. The spectrum ranges from traditional hunting, herding to hunting dogs.  As breeds these animals were never destined to be domestic pets.  While there will always be the exception of individual animals, expecting these breeds to conform to pet standards is a potential recipe for a unhappy animal and in the case such as traditional fighting dogs placed in a domestic situation completly irresponsible and dangerous.


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## Dazzleby (20 March 2011)

*I am very interested by all your replies.

I am very interested by the picture posted by Janetgeorge, your pet foxhound x is grossly obese, so I would say you are definitely not the type of person suited to an active canine.

I do not breed to sell to the pet market.  I do not seek to make money from Foxhounds or any other breed for that matter.

The Foxhound breed standard was incorrect, and I had it changed, the KC were perfectly helpful. 

It is down to individual breeders on choice of matings how they influence breeds.

Just because I do not bear the title MFH or Huntsman, does not mean that I cannot produce good, sound hounds capable of work in many spheres.

I was certainly good enough when hunts wanted me to walk and whelp their puppies and bitches,  and all at my expense.  I find it most amusing that apparently once these hounds reach a year old us mere mortals are not good enough for hounds!!!

Perhaps one thing that UK hunts should bear in mind, that the current system of using Ireland as a dustbin for their discarded hounds is a VERY poor idea.  Many of these unfortunate hounds end up in rescue pounds in a very sorry state indeed.

My Foxhounds  enjoy a VERY high standard of living, which is why they always look so happy and well and perform brilliantly whatever the occasion.

I repeat Dazzleby Foxhoundsseeks to promote Foxhounds and hunting both in the UK and Europe.*


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## EAST KENT (20 March 2011)

Maybe so..but the poor things are deprived of doing and living as they are meant to. The very last thing any hunting people want to see is this breed in pet homes,it is by showing them at "cur dog" shows that this will happen.And..BTW ..do not be rude to someone as eminent and respected as Mrs George


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## reindeerlover (20 March 2011)

I find it amazing that the same people who say that ex racehorses can be trained to do anything are now saying that an intelligent dog cannot do anything but hunt in a pack! It may not be a dog for just anyone but I'm pretty sure that most people who would want one are capable of keeping it in a healthy condition. This is not something that can always be said of people with terriers or collies- they don't HAVE to work but they do HAVE to be stimulated and exercised, how is this any different?

In Ireland there are many foxhounds who are in "pet" homes, having come from the hunt as not good enough or retired. They are kept on farms/yards etc rather than flats and they seem to have adapted rather well. Much preferable to being shot in the head and dumped on the muckheap I'd have thought.


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## Alec Swan (20 March 2011)

Santalover said:



			....... It may not be a dog for just anyone.......
		
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You're right there.  They aren't dogs,  they're *hounds* and there's a world of difference.  If you fail to grasp that point,  then you cannot but fail to understand.

Perhaps those hounds which fail,  could be retrained as Guide Dogs for the Blind. 

Alec.


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## rosie fronfelen (20 March 2011)

SL, you mightb chuck you shot fox hounds on the muck heap in Ireland but here we bury them, with a certain amount of respect.


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## reindeerlover (20 March 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			You're right there.  They aren't dogs,  they're *hounds* and there's a world of difference.  If you fail to grasp that point,  then you cannot but fail to understand.

Perhaps those hounds which fail,  could be retrained as Guide Dogs for the Blind. 

Alec.
		
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That's right, hounds. Like wolfhounds, greyhounds, deerhounds...... all types of dog. Bred for one purpose but slotting nicely into lots of different purposes. Thanks for the heads up on that one Alec


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## reindeerlover (20 March 2011)

rosiefronfelen said:



			SL, you mightb chuck you shot fox hounds on the muck heap in Ireland but here we bury them, with a certain amount of respect.
		
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Well, I'm sure that makes all the difference.


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## xspiralx (20 March 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Maybe so..but the poor things are deprived of doing and living as they are meant to. The very last thing any hunting people want to see is this breed in pet homes,it is by showing them at "cur dog" shows that this will happen.And..BTW ..do not be rude to someone as eminent and respected as Mrs George  

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Dazzleby is being far less rude than most of the other posters on this thread, yourself included.

Her foxhounds look happy and healthy, in excellent weight and condition. Any working dog, as farrierlover points out, needs plenty of exercise and stimulation, but it absolutely does not mean that can be found in one job or activity alone.


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## EAST KENT (20 March 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			You're right there.  They aren't dogs,  they're *hounds* and there's a world of difference.  If you fail to grasp that point,  then you cannot but fail to understand.

Perhaps those hounds which fail,  could be retrained as Guide Dogs for the Blind. 

Alec.
		
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Could be an extremely interesting guide for any blind person


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## Alec Swan (20 March 2011)

Farrierlover said:



			That's right, hounds. Like wolfhounds, greyhounds, deerhounds...... all types of dog. Bred for one purpose but slotting nicely into lots of different purposes. Thanks for the heads up on that one Alec 

Click to expand...

It's a pleasure to be of help.  None of the hounds which you've mentioned live on benches,  and as a pack.  There's a world of difference.  Perhaps we will only have to wait for 10-20 generations,  to see Foxhounds which have replicated the embarrassment which both the modern Deerhound and the Wolfhound have become.  

Sad days,  and you're wrong.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (20 March 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Could be an extremely interesting guide for any blind person 

Click to expand...

Providing,  that is,  that Charlie doesn't decide to use the zebra crossing,  at the same time!!  

Alec.


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## Fiagai (20 March 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Providing,  that is,  that Charlie doesn't decide to use the zebra crossing,  at the same time!!
		
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Remins me of the "story" of Lucky....





			"A Dog Called 'Lucky'!" - Europa Times, October 1993. 

"We will not have him put down. Lucky is basically a damn good guide dog," Ernst Gerber, a dog trainer from Wuppertal told reporters. "He just needs a little brush-up on some elementary skills, that's all." Gerber admitted to the press conference that Lucky, a German shepherd guide-dog for the blind, had so far been responsible for the deaths of all four of his previous owners. "I admit it's not an impressive record on paper. He led his first owner in front of a bus, and the second off the end of a pier. He actually pushed his third owner off a railway platform just as the Cologne to Frankfurt express was approaching and he walked his fourth owner into heavy traffic, before abandoning him and running away to safety. But, apart from epileptic fits, he has a lovely temperament. And guide dogs are difficult to train these days." Asked if Lucky's fifth owner would be told about his previous record, Gerber replied: "No. It would make them nervous, and would make Lucky nervous. And when Lucky gets nervous he's liable to do something silly."
		
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## Alec Swan (20 March 2011)

xspiralx said:



			Dazzleby is being far less rude than most of the other posters on this thread, yourself included.

Her foxhounds look happy and healthy, in excellent weight and condition. Any working dog, as farrierlover points out, needs plenty of exercise and stimulation, but it absolutely does not mean that can be found in one job or activity alone.
		
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I'm sorry to have to contradict you,  but I would think that Mrs. George has a far better understanding of the requirements of a Foxhound,  than does Dazzleby.

Could you perhaps explain to me,  just how you offer "stimulation" to a Foxhound,  which is denied its natural existence?  Agility tests,  perhaps,  or maybe obedience tests. 

I'm also wondering just what the Master Of Foxhounds Association have to say about this.

Alec.

Ets.  Fiagai,  very funny!!  a.


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## Dazzleby (20 March 2011)

I don't need to be rude!  I am just factual.

The picture of the foxhoundx that Mrs George posted is grossly overweight FACT.    Look at it, I don't care who owns it.  It is FAT.  The owner is obviously overfeeding and not giving it enough exercise. FACT.  Owner not suited to high activity canine FACT.

UK hunts dump unwanted foxhounds in Ireland FACT.   Ring any pound owner in Ireland and ask for their opinion.

I know there are good people in Ireland looking after foxhounds.  Well done to them.

I have stated before I have Foxhounds bred by me working in packs.  My hounds are fit for function and purpose.

Just because people in the past have been unable to train a foxhound to do another job, does not mean that the foxhound cannot do that job.  It means the trainer was incompetent.  They are not difficult to train at all.  They can excel in many spheres.

Perhaps the doubters on this forum should be less closed minded.

If you saw my hounds in action  you would understand.


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## Maesfen (20 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



*

The Foxhound breed standard was incorrect, and I had it changed, the KC were perfectly helpful. 

.*

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*

What do the KC actually know about hound breeding though, that is the question and what permission did you have that allowed them to change it as breed standards are usually set in stone?

Dazzleby, you obviously love your breeding and showing and in a small pond, you have done quite well but I have to ask, why oh why did you have to pick the Foxhound as your breed; why not some other breed that you could have championed?  You do Foxhounds a great disservice, sorry.*


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## Dazzleby (20 March 2011)

Maesfen said:



			You have to qualify for Crufts as a start and I don't believe (very willing to be corrected) that the Kennel Club accept hound breeding as being registered so all hunt hounds are ineligible.  More fool them as most hound breeding goes back (and can be verified too) to the mid 1700s so more likely far longer than a lot of other breeds that are registed KC.
Wasn't a very nice specimen though, would love to know the breeding as hounds aren't meant to be sold to Joe Public at all.
		
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Maesfen. the KC does accept THe MFHA studbook  breeding, so you are wrong there.


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## Dazzleby (20 March 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Hounds are shown quite differently from those at normal dog shows.  Yes, they might be on a lead or couples, but the whip would be holding them, the huntsman would be in front engaging them so they are looking and standing alertly; this would not be allowed at Crufts.  Other than the dedicated hound shows such as Peterborough, Honiton, Harrogate, Ardingley, Builth, Rydal and so on) normal dog shows don't allow for hounds to be shown loose which is when you'll see the more natural flowing athletic action of the hounds than when they're on leads and are the highlights of the classes.
		
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Maesfen you state that standing in front of the hound so it is looking alert would not be allowed.  WRONG

I always stand in front of my hounds making them look alert, they have been taught correctly to stand properly , and I do not need someone to hold them from behind.


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## Alec Swan (20 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



*.......The Foxhound breed standard was incorrect, and I had it changed, the KC were perfectly helpful........*

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*

Whilst I would genuinely have no intention of being rude,  Dazzelby,  that statement can only be one of supreme arrogance.  

For many generations,  and for highly experienced Masters,  and Kennel Huntsmen,  the Foxhound has occupied many of their waking hours.  Over several hundred years the hound has developed.  Now,  it seems,  you would have us believe that you know more than those who've given their lives to the production of hounds.  

Assuming that I haven't misunderstood,  or misread your lines,  could you be kind enough to explain,  just how you managed to acquire such a depth of knowledge?

Alec.*


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## Alec Swan (20 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			Maesfen. the KC does accept THe MFHA studbook  breeding, so you are wrong there.
		
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Yet again,  I have no intention of being discourteous,  but if the KC,  accept the standards which have been set by the MFHA studbook,  then just how did you manage to persuade them,  that you knew better?

Alec.


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## Dazzleby (20 March 2011)

I have been working for many years as I said before.  I am able to train my hounds without the use of a whip.  A little kindness goes a long way.  I find many of the comments on this forum quite rude, and I  wonder why it is necessary?

I am a supporter of the Foxhound and hunting, and love hounds.

Just because I am capable not only of breeding lovely hounds and also producing them for the show ring to perform beautifully and be a credit to the breed, you it feel it right to insult me.   

This does your posters no credit.

You don't seemed to have moved with the times at all. SAD. and very short sighted.


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## Dazzleby (20 March 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Yet again,  I have no intention of being discourteous,  but if the KC,  accept the standards which have been set by the MFHA studbook,  then just how did you manage to persuade them,  that you knew better?

Alec.
		
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The original standards were  NOT SET by the MFHA in the KC.  I got them changed so that they were CORRECT to be the same as the MFHA.  

I persuaded them by reasoned argument with supporting pictures and the support of a Master of Foxhounds who has a high degree of intelligence, who TOTALLY supported me.


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## Alec Swan (20 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			.......UK hunts dump unwanted foxhounds in Ireland FACT........
		
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Perhaps you'd care to name and shame those packs which are behaving in this fashion.  In my experience,  *ALL* of the Uk packs,  with whom I've had any dealings,  always put down those hounds which are unsuitable.  They don't go to the considerable expense of "dumping" them in Ireland.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (20 March 2011)

A further point for you to consider,  Dazzelby;  just because others consider what you are doing to be wrong,  and patently,  they don't agree with your actions,  that doesn't mean that they are being rude or offensive,  and as far as I can see,  so far they haven't been so.

I'm appalled at your plans,  but to date I've been polite.  If you were to explain your long term plans for your hounds,  then perhaps others would gain an understanding.

Alec.


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## Spinnotta (20 March 2011)

Alec you are so rude and I must say actually don't know what you are talking about.  The Dazzleby hounds are from hunt lines which in itself shoots you down in flames.

The Dazzleby foxhounds are better cared for, more socialised and in better condition than the hounds in packs (and yes I have hunted before you say anything Alec)  Not only do the Dazzleby hounds show -they also do obedience and agility which as you know (or perhaps you dont) requires control off the lead.

As for pack hounds not making good pets what utter tosh.  Rosemary has 3 ex pack hounds living with her in her house,  I myself have otterhounds which the same rude silly people as you said would never adjust to living as pets.  I would also like to point out that other "working" dogs make great pets point in question ex racing greyhounds.  I was also told that ex race horses are good for nothing  however mine was the best hunter I ever had.

Alec may I suggest that you aquire more correct knowledge before spouting crap


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## Spinnotta (20 March 2011)

Sorry forgot to say to you Alec re your last post   why should anyone tell you what their intentions with their own hounds are.   As long as they are healthy and happy it has nothing to do with anyone else.  

May I suggest that you actually meet the hounds before passing judgment  They will be at the Stafford Show ground for the National Dog Show in May if you are interested in putting your money where your mouth is and actually getting your hands on them and telling Rosemary face to face what you think is so wrong with her hounds


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## JanetGeorge (20 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



*

I am very interested by the picture posted by Janetgeorge, your pet foxhound x is grossly obese, so I would say you are definitely not the type of person suited to an active canine.*

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*

Really!  She IS very overweight - she's 10 years old and arthritic (so cannot be exercised hard) and she is a thief with incredible talent!  She eats anything and everything, and short of keeping her either constantly muzzled or locked up in a cage, her weight is not controllable.  You know nothing about me - and nothing about the dog - so your opinion is based on pure ignorance.




			Perhaps one thing that UK hunts should bear in mind, that the current system of using Ireland as a dustbin for their discarded hounds is a VERY poor idea.  Many of these unfortunate hounds end up in rescue pounds in a very sorry state indeed.
		
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If you have any evidence of ANY registered pack doing this, please PM me with their name and I'll be delighted to report them to the MFHA for disciplinary action!  But why on EASRTH would Irish hunts want English foxhounds - they've been breeding them for at least as long as we have!*


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## Alec Swan (20 March 2011)

Spinnotta said:



			.......Alec may I suggest that you aquire more correct knowledge before spouting crap
		
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Had I realised that I was questioning those with such insight,  then I would have saved my energies.

I shall now do as you've so courteously suggested, and attempt to "acquire more correct knowledge".

Good night.

Alec.


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## glamourstar (20 March 2011)

evening everyone....I am new to the forum, although I have 'lurked' for a while I decided to register after reading this post.

...What started out as a post for info on a topic of which someone just wanted some info has turned really nasty!!!

As far as I can see there are 2 distinct thoughts, Dazzleby answered pretty much everything that in some cases (not all) was rudely put to her, and then when she dared to suggest that another's dog was overweight, she was dammed for not knowing the correct story...(which is a perfectly reasonable response btw and how many of us have also had an overweight/middleaged/thieving lab!),...but in the same breath others have judged her without also knowing the full story.

As far as I can see both JanetGeorge and Dazzleby are respected professionals who have very different viewpoints on this topic, and whilst both should be listened to neither is 'right'.

For all of those people who are getting on their high horses about fox hound being solely for hunting...(a view with which i dont completely diasgree), have u ever actually tried to retrain a foxhound?  I have a working collie who has adapted very well to being a pet, as well as an ex racehorse who is now a fun hobby horse who even enjoys dressage (to his disgust!)....why is that ANY different?

I really think that people should be nicer on these sort of threads and should realise that there is 'more than one way to skin a cat'!!


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## JanetGeorge (20 March 2011)

glamourstar said:



			For all of those people who are getting on thier high horses about fox hound being solely for hunting...(a view with which i dont completely diasgree), have u ever actually tried to retrain a foxhound?
		
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I'm not sure I would WANT to try and retrain a pack foxhound - having walked literally dozens of the little poppets, there is always a small sigh of relief when the time comes to send them back!

Leah was hard enough - and she'd obviously never been in a pack.  But she'd never been trained either - and I was her 'last chance' (the no-kill shelter that had her was about to change their policy just for her!!)

There were one or two of those I walked who I think WOULD have been re-trainable after their hunting careers ended - but like any responsible MFHA pack, ours did NOT offer this as an option (even to the Master's wife!)

I do know of several people who ended up with a foxhound 'pet'.  There was a rather nice vicar who got a foxhound from a 'dodgy' animal shelter (the hound had been stolen from a pack by a well-known anti).  By the time one of his parishioners saw it - and suggested it might be stolen - he was VERY willing to part with it as it had proved immensely destructive and almost impossible to train!

Some years ago, I was instrumental in recovering two other stolen foxhounds: they had been in another somewhat 'dodgy' rescue for 8 months.  They were young hounds who'd never hunted, but the shelter found it impossible to teach them to lead (took me 24 hours!), they had allowed them to get painfully thin - saying it was because they raced up and down their kennel non-stop all day!  They wouldn't come when called (that also took 24 hours - and a lot of biscuits - to correct!)

I certainly don't think it's impossible to 're-train' a pack foxhound - but it's certainly not easy and if you get it wrong, then the neighbours ducks, cats and sheep are at risk!  The pack foxhound who has hunted IS a hunting machine - you don't TEACH a foxhound to hunt - you teach him not to hunt anything but the legitimate quarry!

The only hounds relatively EASY to retrain would be the 'useless' (as hunters) sort!


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## Jim Moriarty (20 March 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			I'd agree with you 100%!  And I'd go further - the Kennel Club wants shooting, en masse, for what they've ALLOWED to happen to many breeds!
		
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Couldn't agree more. The KC is an utter shambles.


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## Jim Moriarty (20 March 2011)

Ooh, allo. Reinforcements!


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## rosie fronfelen (20 March 2011)

Farrierlover said:



			Well, I'm sure that makes all the difference.
		
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you're a charmer---how can you chuck adead hound on a muck heap?


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## Herne (20 March 2011)

This discussion is getting overly personal.

No doubt Dazzleby loves her hounds and looks after them, etc, etc, etc.

However, equally fox hunting people are quite right to be pleased with the fact that Foxhounds have (mostly) been kept out of showing and quite right to be wary of what showing will do to the breed.

If anyone wants to know why, just look at the following.

This (at the bottom of the page) is a hunting Basset Hound (Peterborough Champion Bitch 08); http://www.themastersvoice.co.uk/2009-june/bassets-david-hindle.php

This is this year's Crufts Champion Basset Hound: http://crufts.fossedata.co.uk/Breed.asp?ShowYear=2011&GroupID=HOU&ScheduleID=121

We do not want the same thing to happen to the fox hound - and quite right too!


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## Daisychain (20 March 2011)

OMG that is actually shocking.... i bet the show breed doesnt live very long, look at its legs and its massively overweight body.   

Why would anybody knowingly breed such deformity.


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## EAST KENT (20 March 2011)

If you show a "rare" breed at KC shows..and you are usually the only one there ..well you win lots . It is the easy ride ,the hollow victory! Me? I`d rather have a bit of competition and get wins worth treasuring,breed damn good dogs of my breed for others to show and enjoy.
   Not for me those daft "Breeder Stakes" where a breeder swans about with four animals of their breeding,the point is?? As for all being in matching hunt type waistcoats..oh no.
  You do a huge disservice to foxhounds in your lust for pots and prizes and should leave one of our last true WORKING breeds to those who treasure them for just that.The true test of any hound is if it can work ,have stamina,stay healthy..if it looks good that is a bonus ,and it might get bred from.Our hounds have to prove their worth in the field,look reasonable and often are four or five before they have done that enough to earn being bred from.That is how it should be,don`t expect hound people to condone your kc showing,they never will,rightly so.


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## glamourstar (20 March 2011)

Daisychain said:



			OMG that is actually shocking.... i bet the show breed doesnt live very long, look at its legs and its massively overweight body.   

Why would anybody knowingly breed such deformity.
		
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I completely agree it is shocking, but so is selective breeding in any form if you think of it from a 'natural point or view'.  Just do a search on google images for 'double muscle belgian blue', although I guess you could argue that breed has a purpose it still can't be healthy for the animal.  Or what about the chickens selectively bred for fast growth and often their bone density is not enough to support their own mass?



EAST KENT said:



			You do a huge disservice to foxhounds in your lust for pots and prizes and should leave one of our last true WORKING breeds to those who treasure them for just that.The true test of any hound is if it can work ,have stamina,stay healthy..if it looks good that is a bonus ,and it might get bred from.Our hounds have to prove their worth in the field,look reasonable and often are four or five before they have done that enough to earn being bred from.That is how it should be,don`t expect hound people to condone your kc showing,they never will,rightly so.
		
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If Dazzleby is in fact what she says she is and is closely involved with the local hound pack why shouldnt she choose to show her hounds if she has permission and is able to do so....why is this different from showing any other working dog.  

TBH I think this old fashioned view that only the hunt have the skills and intelligence to breed foxhounds is one aspect of the whole attitude that gives hunting its bad name in some circles.  Surely hunts are selectively breeding hounds for different terrain as well, and as she has already stated, they she is breeding according to the breed standard sanctioned by the MFHA.  I think that this is the same attitude that means that when I go out hunting I say a massive thank you to any followers or cars that stop, slow down or help.....because you can bet your bottom dollar that those arround me on a Saturday dont say thank you!! I think some people who have posted on this thread have been very stuck up to be perfectly honest!


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## EAST KENT (20 March 2011)

And shame on that pack if it is true!


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## Maesfen (20 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			Maesfen. the KC does accept THe MFHA studbook  breeding, so you are wrong there.
		
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Thank you for the correction



Dazzleby said:



			Maesfen you state that standing in front of the hound so it is looking alert would not be allowed.  WRONG
		
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I was referring to the correct way to show foxhounds when two 'handlers' would not be allowed into the ring as they normally do, not what you do yourself so I don't consider that was a wrong comment, sorry.



Spinnotta said:



			Alec you are so rude 
I'm sorry, that is so unfair; Alec is one of the most polite and sensible posters on the whole forum.

As for pack hounds not making good pets what utter tosh.  Rosemary has 3 ex pack hounds living with her in her house,  I myself have otterhounds which the same rude silly people as you said would never adjust to living as pets.
		
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You are giving the impression that every foxhound would be suitable for re-homing as a pet which certainly is a load of tosh.  Very few would be suitable candidates and being used to a life of hunting when they are taught to work as a pack; it would be totally unfair to ask them to then lead a restricted lifestyle without others of their own kind.



JanetGeorge said:



			There were one or two of those I walked who I think WOULD have been re-trainable after their hunting careers ended - but like any responsible MFHA pack, ours did NOT offer this as an option (even to the Master's wife!)

I certainly don't think it's impossible to 're-train' a pack foxhound - but it's certainly not easy and if you get it wrong, then the neighbours ducks, cats and sheep are at risk!  The pack foxhound who has hunted IS a hunting machine - you don't TEACH a foxhound to hunt - you teach him not to hunt anything but the legitimate quarry!

The only hounds relatively EASY to retrain would be the 'useless' (as hunters) sort!
		
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Yes, we've walked some that we would have welcomed back but at the end of the day, if anything had gone wrong, even though retired and no longer being in kennel, it would be the hunt that would have the black mark against them for being so irresponsible as to let them be re-homed to pet homes.  There aren't many people that would have the space and correct facilities for adult hounds that only know how to hunt.  Like horses, better the end you know than risk them being lost, stolen or worse still, causing mayhem in the community; it's funny when they are pups at walk when they get into mischief but not so funny with a full grown hound that might not be so easy to handle (or catch!)



Herne said:



			This discussion is getting overly personal.

No doubt Dazzleby loves her hounds and looks after them, etc, etc, etc.

However, equally fox hunting people are quite right to be pleased with the fact that Foxhounds have (mostly) been kept out of showing and quite right to be wary of what showing will do to the breed.

If anyone wants to know why, just look at the following.

This (at the bottom of the page) is a hunting Basset Hound (Peterborough Champion Bitch 08); http://www.themastersvoice.co.uk/2009-june/bassets-david-hindle.php

This is this year's Crufts Champion Basset Hound: http://crufts.fossedata.co.uk/Breed.asp?ShowYear=2011&GroupID=HOU&ScheduleID=121

We do not want the same thing to happen to the fox hound - and quite right too!
		
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I've whelped and walked hounds for the Albany Bassets, as you can see from these pics, they have altered into a far more athletic hound from when we first started with them some  twelve years ago when they were still all KC registered and from show stock - who couldn't catch a cold but had glorious voices!   They have since used stallion hounds from other basset packs rather than the show stock and they have vastly improved.  Now they hunt very well and still get the hairs on the back of your neck rising when in full cry. http://www.albanybassets.co.uk/gallery1.php


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## Alec Swan (20 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			....... with supporting pictures and the support of a Master of Foxhounds who has a high degree of intelligence, who TOTALLY supported me.
		
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If I'm not to be accused of being rude,  I'm not too sure how to reply to that!!

Look on the bright side,  there will be very few Masters who would countenance such support,  so with luck,  as the available gene pool will be minuscule,  so will the growth of this aspect of dog showing.  

Alec.


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## rosie fronfelen (21 March 2011)

Daisychain said:



			OMG that is actually shocking.... i bet the show breed doesnt live very long, look at its legs and its massively overweight body.   

Why would anybody knowingly breed such deformity.
		
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to which picture are you referring DC?


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## Herne (21 March 2011)

rosiefronfelen said:



			to which picture are you referring DC?
		
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The ones in the preceding message.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=9505128&postcount=80


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## Dazzleby (21 March 2011)

Firstly Basset hounds are nothing to do with me at all.

The KC has many people who are greatly interested and have much knowledge on the subject of foxhounds.

Lastly, I really cannot imagine where the general public get the idea that the hunting fraternity is in some cases unpleasant with people that are arrogant, old fashioned  and anal.


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## EAST KENT (21 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			Firstly Basset hounds are nothing to do with me at all.

The KC has many people who are greatly interested and have much knowledge on the subject of foxhounds.

Lastly, I really cannot imagine where the general public get the idea that the hunting fraternity is in some cases unpleasant with people that are arrogant, old fashioned  and anal.
		
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Been showing at KC shows for forty years now and have yet to meet anyone who has a clue about the world of hunting, perhaps Anne Roslin Williams..from the terrier work angle,but no one who understands hunting and how to go about it. In fact ,Tom Horner was the only judge I ever heard of attending a hunt puppy show,let alone Peterborough or Ardingly.
  The sooner foxhounds are left to hunting people the better.


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## Maesfen (21 March 2011)

TBF, up until the 90's at least, a lot of Border Terrier folk, even those that were into showing, enjoyed their hunting and not just from a working terrier POV.  Peggy Grayson for one was excellent and a prize from her meant a lot, she knew how breeds should be built to withstand the work it should do as well as look good.

Whatever breed, there can be nothing more satisfying than to watch as a breed doing well at what  it was originally bred for; nothing beats it IMV and foxhounds weren't bred to be in a show ring.


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## rosie fronfelen (21 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			Firstly Basset hounds are nothing to do with me at all.

The KC has many people who are greatly interested and have much knowledge on the subject of foxhounds.

Lastly, I really cannot imagine where the general public get the idea that the hunting fraternity is in some cases unpleasant with people that are arrogant, old fashioned  and anal.
		
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Do you REALLY have to be so unpleasant,anal is not a nice word to use-everyone is allowed their own opinions even if they dont agree with yours-


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## Maesfen (21 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			Firstly Basset hounds are nothing to do with me at all.

Is it rude of me to think 'thank goodness for that'?


The KC has many people who are greatly interested and have much knowledge on the subject of foxhounds.

Would love to know exactly who you are talking about

Lastly, I really cannot imagine where the general public get the idea that the hunting fraternity is in some cases unpleasant with people that are arrogant, old fashioned  and anal.
		
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Sarcasm really is the lowest form of wit and won't enamour you to anyone, sorry.


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## EAST KENT (21 March 2011)

Ah, but then D is used to lots of oohs and aahs from KC dog people who know nothing about what a good hound should look like...and then along come us hardened old hunting folk!
   We are somewhat harder to impress


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## Alec Swan (21 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			Firstly Basset hounds are nothing to do with me at all.

The KC has many people who are greatly interested and have much knowledge on the subject of foxhounds.

Lastly, I really cannot imagine where the general public get the idea that the hunting fraternity is in some cases unpleasant with people that are arrogant, old fashioned  and anal.
		
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Para 1.  The point,  which you may have missed,  was that the Bassets were offered as an example of the appalling damage done to just about any breed which is shown under the auspices of the Kennel Club.  Are you prepared for the Foxhound to follow them?  Presumably,  your answer will be a resounding *NO*,  and I'd be interested to hear just how you would prevent such.

Para 2.  From your previous statements,  it would seem that this wasn't the case,  so presumably you've managed to educate them.  That in itself would be some achievement!

Para 3.  I've read just about every post on here,  and I'm sorry to tell you that by far the rudest posts have come from you,  and your supporters.  By and large,  those who contribute to the Hunting section,  manage to conduct themselves in a civilised fashion.  Debates become heated,  on occasions,  but I've yet to hear the word "anal" used.  Well done.


If you are passionate about Hounds,  then you're in good company.  Many of those who've contributed to this thread,  are as passionate as you.  How I would love to keep 3 or 4 couples for my own entertainment.  It would be wrong for me to do so.  

I've asked you a variety of questions,  as this thread has wearily dragged on,  which you've failed to answer.  I will repeat them.  If you are to show your hounds at Crufts,  then presumably you breed a few litters annually.  Could you tell me what you do with those pups which you feel are not up to show standard?

If you produce puppies on a non-commercial basis,  I'd be surprised to hear that you keep them all.  Are they sold off to pet homes,  or do your local pack take them?

If you've reached the heady heights of Crufts (sic),  then presumably there are others who compete against you.  Am I right?  I'd be interested to hear where they've sourced their stock from.

I've read through your website,  and it would seem that it hasn't been updated for nearly 3 years.  I agree,  without question,  that your hounds look to be very attractive,  and they look very "well"!!

There are those who've joined in with this debate,  who live their lives with hounds.  I'm not amongst them,  but would join them in having serious doubts about the wisdom of releasing Foxhounds on to an unsuspecting,  and inexperienced public,  and if you are to avoid the embarrassment of the hollow victories,  then presumably you will need others,  against whom you can compete.

Someone else said that they felt that you were doing the Foxhound a grave disservice.  I'd qualify that,  but saying that it is a risk,  with almost inevitable consequences.  Go back and view the appalling pictures,  offered I think by Herne,  of the Bassets,  and then explain how you will prevent this,  from happening to the Foxhound.

Alec.


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## EAST KENT (22 March 2011)

Apart from the appalling changes that the KC types may bring about ,it is the "life" that an awful lot of showdogs lead that worries me.I am not for one minute sugesting that D`s hounds have anything but a good..if unforfilled..life,but consider how puppies sold to other exhibitors might fare.
    A lot of "showdogs" live in crates,alone;they are exercised ,if the breed demands it, on treadmills,so no mental stimulation in their lives whatsoever.
   It is any dog`s right to "be a dog", belt around ,scent,hunt, toss sticks and roll in rubbish; the majority of show dogs don`t have that essential right to their lives. Most are fed convenient dry pellets,so the contentment endorphins presumably are never released. That,in some breeds,can lead to mental problems and it certainly would in a foxhound.
   Years ago I remember,when judging in Californis, a chap with American Foxhounds.....he could NEVER let them off the lead! That is not a life for a hound.


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## Alec Swan (25 March 2011)

Am I the only one,  who thinks it rather strange,  that having asked questions,  of those who would use the Kennel Club,  and as a route to promote hounds,  then those questions,  appear to have been ignored?

Alec.


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## Maesfen (25 March 2011)

No Alec, you're not alone.


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## glamourstar (25 March 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Am I the only one,  who thinks it rather strange,  that having asked questions,  of those who would use the Kennel Club,  and as a route to promote hounds,  then those questions,  appear to have been ignored?

Alec.
		
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What do u mean? Who is ignoring who?


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## rosie fronfelen (26 March 2011)

He is OBVIOUSLY referring to Dazzleby who seems to have gone off air-


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## glamourstar (26 March 2011)

rosiefronfelen said:



			He is OBVIOUSLY referring to Dazzleby who seems to have gone off air-
		
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Oh right....I OBVIOULSY had a thick moment !.  Tbh though, I'm not surprised that she has gone off air after all this.  I wouldnt hang around to be slated....I guess people have to accept that different people are going to have different views on this.


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## EAST KENT (26 March 2011)

Lets face it,showing anything is an ego trip  and a competitive urge.Why promote a breed unsuitable as a Joe Bloggs pet ?
  Been showing for years and years,and watch with a jaundiced eye those "promoting" newly imported "rare" breeds.No competition, easy wins is the only answer.
  Wonder if I am in for a personal ear bashing at the next Champ show that has Foxhounds and Mini Bull Terriers on the same day!


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## mad4foxhounds (30 March 2011)

The stimulation of a foxhound owned as a pet is very much like many other breeds that I personally think require certain home environment.
I have many foxhounds over the years, I compete in agility and obedience with my hounds, and I also work my guys hunting the clean boot, 
none of my older foxhounds are Fat- I have had three tattooed ex pack hounds all with joint problem because of their active youth, all have settled with no problems to indoor life in front of the fire, their activity being lesser than when they were younger, these too were not FAT, they were 11 13 and 15 years old. so I personally dont think blaming the hound, for not being able to go out on HARD exercise is a load of C***
An carer or owner is normally to blame, where I work over 95% of over weight pets is due to owners not feeding them the required amount.

I believe you are continuing to have a go at us, because you are in shock or jealously in what we do with our hounds and the fact we DO have the backing of the MFHA and masters/huntmans alike. And you fear the unknown. 
at least if your picking on us you are leaving someone else alone.

As for naming and shaming the packs,
 why would I put that information to people like you alec swan who would more than likely just shag them off on a forum somewhere, when the true people we need to tell already know about it.
Next time you are around packs of hounds ask the kennel staff or huntsman-
where they draft hounds too,  ask them if they know which hunt owns them now, do they know if they are still alive? or been killed/shot or other.
I will be pleasantly surprised if they know and can answer you and if they even care.

so please stop having ago at those of us who DO care so much about the breed to value where the hounds are placed.
this post was not set up for slagging off people who clearly love their breed and want to ensure that the breed is able to be viewed for generations to come, before you start (blablabling- dazzleby uses hounds from hunt stock that most on here would only dream about getting their hands on for their hunt kennels.- Duke of beaufort and north staffs and the heythrop to name but a few,)

I wouldnt blame dazzleby for not posting on this forum again as it has turned into a witch hunt, the questions asked when the page was set up foxhound at crufts  have been answered. and people reading this page can see we have offered to try and shed more information on the subject, to be upcasted and slagged off so why should she bother trying to help and educate those who are unwilling to open their mind a little more to something that is different.

Hardened old hunting fork! we dont need to impress those like you who are blinkered and set in the ways and dont like change.
but small point to make how come when Ive been to shows wit my foxhounds I have had people older then you come up and ask about my hounds and willing to listen when I talk about my hounds, these people- huntsman whips and masters of hunts from the north- midlands and even the south, and as I recall crufts the last 5 years has had masters viewing the foxhound judging and making pleasant comments about the working type of dazzlebys foxhounds.
my final point is to EAST KENT is any breed truly suitable for the Joe Bloggs
I do not believe that such breed is available, if so our rescue shelters would not be full to boiling point of dogs.  Owning or what ever you do with you min bull terriers you should truly know that. 

this is my last post as sadly I feel it is pointless tiring my self out over people on this forum who lead shelter lives and are not willing anyone else with a different point of view have a say, 
for those interested in learning more or are just willing to think out side the box, or those that want to see happy healthy rescue/expack foxhounds enjoying their lives please feel free to visit our breed welfare site  http//foxhoundwelfareuk.jimdo.com 
or my own website www.madaboutfoxhounds.org.uk. 

happy hounding-


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## MerrySherryRider (30 March 2011)

Thank you M4FH and Dazzleby for coming on here to enlighten us about your hounds. It was really interesting, unfortunately, you weren't to know that the hunting section of this forum is generally only frequented by a handful of posters who have only themselves to talk to, as rational debate seldom happens here and most of us can't be bothered with it.

Less extreme hunting and riding horsefolk tend to stick to other areas of the forum.
Sorry you guys had such an unfortunate introduction to HHO.


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## rosie fronfelen (30 March 2011)

Oh,just get over yourselves the 3 of you,everyone has their own opinions on hounds and the work they do,some packs, certainly ours go back 400 years so that is dedication and years ago this keeping of hounds as pets would never have occurred,it is not a case of leading sheltered lives, acomment i find deeply offensive,its a case of leading different lives.


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## JanetGeorge (30 March 2011)

mad4foxhounds said:



			none of my older foxhounds are Fat- 

.....

so I personally dont think blaming the hound, for not being able to go out on HARD exercise is a load of C***
An carer or owner is normally to blame, where I work over 95% of over weight pets is due to owners not feeding them the required amount.

[.quote]

Another new member shooting her mouth off about something she knows nothing about.  My rescue Foxhound x Lab is NOT pure foxhound - she is a Lab cross - so hybrid vigour for greed.  She couldn't get fat on what she is fed - she thieves!  She even goes around the yearlings' fields stealing stud balancer from right under their noses!

She's had 9 good years with me in the best of health - but has just been diagnosed with kidney failure so I'll be bidding her a very sad farewell in a week or two and I DON'T need to apologise to anyone for the love and care she's had since I've had her.





			this is my last post as sadly I feel it is pointless tiring my self out over people on this forum who lead shelter lives and are not willing anyone else with a different point of view have a say,
		
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Pot, kettle, black - Goodbye!
		
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## EAST KENT (30 March 2011)

Personally I cannot think of ANY MFH or Huntsman who could be dragged kicking and screaming to any Champ Dog Show. Oh,one exception Harley Godsell who was huntsman for 25 years with the (I think) North Herefordshire,he very rarely, but sometimes ,accompanied his wife Dawn who breeds bull terriers. Harley retired last year.
It is a different world ,leave hounds to hunting people please.


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## Dazzleby (30 March 2011)

Some of you hardened hunters seem to be missing the point.  You asked me how my beautiful Cruft's winning Best of Breed Dazzleby Dandelion was bred.  I told you, by Duke of Beaufort's Milton.   
Probably came as something of a surprise, but I do actually like to use a classy stallion hound on my bitches.  I am very fussy about correct type, temperament, health and I want something that's biddable. I have certainly succeeded on all counts.

I stated quite clearly from the outset that I am  firm supporter of the Foxhound and Foxhunting, and I am extremely knowledgeable on all aspects.

After I had walked my first hound, I was asked again  and again, and moved on to being asked to whelp bitches and walk entire litters.

When I purchased a Foxhound bitch it was seen at an agricultural show, where the huntsman after a short conversation asked ME if I would be willing to use her for breeding and I was promised the pick of the pack.  The rest as they say is history, but to those who do not know, with a team of the resultant progeny in 2004 I went all over the UK showing off my beautiful hounds winning against ALL BREEDS and it culmanated in my team Winning the Breeder Stakes at CRUFTS.  I was delighted that the general public had had a very got chance to see the FOXHOUND up close and to see what a talented hound it really is.  A long way from how many people perceive it to be.

It may interest the forum to know that there are a number of private breeders of Foxhounds in the UK.  I do not endorse any of them, and they are NOTHING  to do with me at all.  What private individuals do is for them to decide.

Regarding Cruft's, I always like to take a good big team there, as the public love to see MY hounds, and come back each year to cheer them on.  If other people choose not to enter against me, that is their decision, perhaps they don't want to waste the £22 per entry.

There are only 2 people in this country who are capable of producing good all round , fit healthy, happy Foxhounds that are capable of showing , agility and obedience and who really know their subject.  I am of course refering to myself and Jackie.  We are both able to rehabilitate Foxhounds that have suffered sometimes terrible abuse.

It may also be of interest to the 'knockers' that one of my foxhounds is owned by a UK huntsman and lives in his house and hunts with the pack.  This man is very supportive of my work with hounds and comes to watch us showing.
I have numerous requests from huntsman ' have I any spare bitches' the answer is no.
I have been asked by a Huntsman for my 'secrets of how to get hounds showing so well'.
One of my Foxhounds has been used extensively in one pack and it has got back to me that he is the best hound they have ever had.

To the people who choose to slag me off, just remember I SUPPORT FOXHOUNDS and wish to promote them.  Are you promoting them?  Have our spokes people done a good job promoting Foxhounds in the past?

  The answer to that is clear NO YOU HAVE NOT.


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## combat_claire (30 March 2011)

I think my question got lost in the melee. My major concern is that I believe (happy to be corrected) that hounds at Crufts are not shown loose in any phase of the judging. If that is the case then how can the correct breed standard be judged. The specialist hound shows that are only open to hunting hounds from recognised packs always insist that the hound is shown on couples and then has to demonstrate its movement off the lead. 

I would also add that given the furore in the shooting world following serious problems with the breed standards for retrievers and similar working gun dogs the concerns being raised by hunting folk on here are entirely legitimate. 

On a completely unrelated point I wonder if you have any views on the showing of docked breeds (I know hounds are not docked), the recent legislation on tail docking forbids the showing of animals docked since the law was changed. Yet most true working examples of the breed will be docked. Do you as a professional breeder feel this is a complete contradiction??


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## JanetGeorge (30 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			Some of you hardened hunters seem to be missing the point.  You asked me how my beautiful Cruft's winning Best of Breed Dazzleby Dandelion was bred.  I told you, by Duke of Beaufort's Milton.
		
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Mmm - and was DoB's Milton part of the Beaufort pack at the time he was used to produce 'pet' foxhounds??  I suspect not!  I somehow can't see the current Duke, Ian Farquhar or Martin Scott agreeing to it - and the 10th Duke would be turning in his grave at the thought!


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## Dazzleby (30 March 2011)

Ms George, do you realise that this thread has had nearly 3,500  views?

How interesting it has become, with insults being hurled in my direction.

I clearly state that I am a Supporter of Foxhounds and Hunting.

Is this the way you treat supporters?

In answer to your question Ms George regarding The Duke of Beaufort.  Yes, he is well aware that I have used his hound as is Martin Scott...... I expect they find it amusing that a mere slip of a girl is so competent with hounds, and puts them to such varied uses.

Believe in a Foxhound and it will succeed!!


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## JanetGeorge (30 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			Ms George, do you realise that this thread has had nearly 3,500  views?

How interesting it has become, with insults being hurled in my direction.




			I think most people will have noticed you've given at least as many 'insults' as you've received




			I clearly state that I am a Supporter of Foxhounds and Hunting.

Is this the way you treat supporters?
		
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Having spent  number of years trying to clean up PR 'messes' made by hunt 'supporters', I've learnt that the fact that someone claims to be a 'supporter' of foxhunting does NOT mean they are at ALL helpful to the cause!




			In answer to your question Ms George regarding The Duke of Beaufort.  Yes, he is well aware that I have used his hound as is Martin Scott...... I expect they find it amusing that a mere slip of a girl is so competent with hounds, and puts them to such varied uses.
		
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Mmm - I suspect they find something in the situation amusing (not so sure what!)  But you don't actually answer the questions I asked!
		
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## Alec Swan (30 March 2011)

mad4foxhounds said:



			.......I believe you are continuing to have a go at us, because you are in shock or jealously in what we do with our hounds and the fact we DO have the backing of the MFHA and masters/huntmans alike. And you fear the unknown.......

........I wouldnt blame dazzleby for not posting on this forum again as it has turned into a witch hunt, the questions asked when the page was set up foxhound at crufts  have been answered. 

-
		
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You really haven't understood a word of the previous posters,  have you?  In shock?  Certainly,  shocked that any Master would allow his hounds to be overseen by the most damaging influence inflicted on any canine,  The Kennel Club.  

If you have the backing of the MFHA,  Masters or kennel huntsmen,  then I would be staggered.  I will contact the MFHA,  and see if I can ascertain exactly where they stand on this.  

The claim that those who believe you to be wrong,  are simply jealous,  does little to recommend you.

As for your claim that the questions have been answered,  I would point out to you that I have twice asked the same questions,  and have yet to see a reply.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (30 March 2011)

combat_claire said:



			On a completely unrelated point I wonder if you have any views on the showing of docked breeds (I know hounds are not docked), the recent legislation on tail docking forbids the showing of animals docked since the law was changed. Yet most true working examples of the breed will be docked. Do you as a professional breeder feel this is a complete contradiction??
		
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An interesting point,  though possibly one for another thread.  One question,  if the law has changed,  then how can it have done so,  whilst docking is still permitted,  providing that you can find a vet to carry out the operation?  

A contradiction?  Most certainly,  but then the show bench have never had any interest in the purpose for which any dog was bred.  I have a legitimate and deeply embedded loathing of the Kennel Club,  and the damage which they've done,  and best of all,  continue to do!!

Alec.


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## JanetGeorge (30 March 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			If you have the backing of the MFHA,  Masters or kennel huntsmen,  then I would be staggered.  I will contact the MFHA,  and see if I can ascertain exactly where they stand on this.
		
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I would LOVE to see Alastair's face when you ask him if the MFHA backs the breeding of pet foxhounds!  But I hope you'll make sure he's sitting down when you ask!


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## Alec Swan (30 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			.......To the people who choose to slag me off,.
		
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Nobody,  Dazzleby,  has "slagged you off".  There are those,  and I'm amongst them,  who don't agree with what you are doing.  That's an entirely different matter.  

When there are those who don't agree with your stance,  in life,  and they tell you so,  then if you can look beyond the comments,  you may well see that they actually have your best interests at heart.

Any new idea should be open to scrutiny,  and though I may be wrong,  I suspect that as doubts have been raised, it may well be that you are starting to consider the realities of what you are doing.  

If you would care to cast your thoughts back to post 95,  mine,  and then tell me how you see your future plans for foxhounds,  then I'd be interested to read your response.

Alec.

ets,  this is becoming a Paxman interview!! a


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## Maesfen (30 March 2011)

The mind boggles, better make sure he has a stiff drink too!

JG, be a love and muck out your PMs please, nothing can get through.


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## EAST KENT (30 March 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			I would LOVE to see Alastair's face when you ask him if the MFHA backs the breeding of pet foxhounds!  But I hope you'll make sure he's sitting down when you ask!

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God! As for our old huntsman Richard Blakeney..I can just see him turning purple now!! I have a foot in both camps,but very much think hounds should NEVER be degraded by being trolled around cur dog shows for hollow victories.
   I think D that we really are owed the names of these hunting people who have helped you create pet foxhounds,if indeed they exist.
   The Exmoor pack might be a good direction to go..very classy,fast and superb noses,see what they say.


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## JanetGeorge (30 March 2011)

Maesfen said:



			The mind boggles, better make sure he has a stiff drink too!

JG, be a love and muck out your PMs please, nothing can get through.
		
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Or two!

Mucking out completed (the price of being popular!)


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## Maesfen (30 March 2011)

Ta!


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## Apricot (30 March 2011)

*If Dazzleby's hounds are healthy and happy, which they clearly are, apart from grating against the old fashioned snobbery of certain individuals - which to an outsider come across as childish and ridiculous - WHAT DOES IT MATTER?*


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## glamourstar (30 March 2011)

horserider said:



			Thank you M4FH and Dazzleby for coming on here to enlighten us about your hounds. It was really interesting, unfortunately, you weren't to know that the hunting section of this forum is generally only frequented by a handful of posters who have only themselves to talk to, as rational debate seldom happens here and most of us can't be bothered with it.

Less extreme hunting and riding horsefolk tend to stick to other areas of the forum.
Sorry you guys had such an unfortunate introduction to HHO.
		
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^^^^^^^ This 



JanetGeorge said:



			Mmm - and was DoB's Milton part of the Beaufort pack at the time he was used to produce 'pet' foxhounds??  I suspect not!  I somehow can't see the current Duke, Ian Farquhar or Martin Scott agreeing to it - and the 10th Duke would be turning in his grave at the thought!
		
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...I have no reasons to doubt your professionalism (sp?) or passion for hunting and usually your posts seem enlightening but for gods sake!!!! This is a playground reply....'The Duke is my best friend not yours!!'..are u therefore suggesting that somehow Dazzleby sneaked her bitch in underneath Milton?  Honestly, grow up! ...could it be that Ian Farquhar has santioned something without first consulting you?




Dazzleby said:



			I clearly state that I am a Supporter of Foxhounds and Hunting.

Believe in a Foxhound and it will succeed!!
		
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^^^^ good on ya, and thanks for actually sensibly answering the OP's questions before all this handbags at dawn started!

..That is all!


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## JanetGeorge (31 March 2011)

glamourstar said:



			...I have no reasons to doubt your professionalism (sp?) or passion for hunting and usually your posts seem enlightening but for gods sake!!!! This is a playground reply....'The Duke is my best friend not yours!!'..are u therefore suggesting that somehow Dazzleby sneaked her bitch in underneath Milton?  Honestly, grow up! ...could it be that Ian Farquhar has santioned something without first consulting you?
		
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If you must blaspheme, it's 'for God's sake'!  The Duke is not on my Christmas card list - nor I on his - and it's a long time since Ian F. consulted me on anything.  However, I DO know the MFHA's stance on foxhounds as pets, on the drafting of foxhounds, etc. etc.  I do not believe a Master of Ian Farquhar's experience would sanction the use of a Beaufort stallion hound on a pet foxhound.  Of course, if the hound had previously been drafted to another pack, he would have had no control of what another MFH sanctioned - but Dazzleby has not answered my question regarding that!


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## combat_claire (31 March 2011)

I still await an answer re: showing of foxhounds at Crufts loose, but it would seem that the showing brigade are too busy taking umbrage to answer any sensible questions. Only Alec has bothered to answer me...

In other news Shooting Times is reporting that KC officials removed photos from the Bavarian Mountain Hound society stand as they felt that pictures of dogs tracking deer carcasses was akin to the Bull Terrier stand showing images of dog fighting. They stated that these were unsuitable for younger visitors to the show. Is this really a governing body that deserves an ounce of trust in preserving the working hounds?


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## combat_claire (31 March 2011)

Apricot said:



*If Dazzleby's hounds are healthy and happy, which they clearly are, apart from grating against the old fashioned snobbery of certain individuals - which to an outsider come across as childish and ridiculous - WHAT DOES IT MATTER?*

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It has nothing to do with snobbery but well founded concerns about the mechanism of judging (which to date nobody from the showing side has bothered to answer) and the fitness of the Kennel Club to represent traditional working breeds.


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## Geldolff (31 March 2011)

I thought about replying to this thread but it seems dangerous, so i will leave it alone


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## Maesfen (31 March 2011)

combat_claire said:



			It has nothing to do with snobbery but well founded concerns about the mechanism of judging (which to date nobody from the showing side has bothered to answer) and the fitness of the Kennel Club to represent traditional working breeds.
		
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Well said.

On that note does anyone know more about the judge on that day, a Mrs V (believe it is Vivien) Phillips and her connection to hunting?  She is also involved with and judged the P. Basset and I can't deny that she put up a very well built, workmanlike bitch that was a pleasure to watch.

Sadly, PC-ism is going too far regarding the taking down of breed pictures doing what the dog was bred from, I'm surprised at Ronnie Irving, he should know better being involved in a sporting breed like the Border Terrier for so long.  I suppose next, we won't be able to see a Highland Pony bringing a stag down the hill either and God forbid actually see a picture of a beagle hunting.  Such a sad state of affairs and so many will now grow up not having a clue what their favourite breeds are why they are like they are and why they were developed to be like that.


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## MerrySherryRider (31 March 2011)

Geldolff said:



			I thought about replying to this thread but it seems dangerous, so i will leave it alone
		
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Spoilsport. They like a fresh kill.


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## EAST KENT (31 March 2011)

Apricot said:



*If Dazzleby's hounds are healthy and happy, which they clearly are, apart from grating against the old fashioned snobbery of certain individuals - which to an outsider come across as childish and ridiculous - WHAT DOES IT MATTER?*

Click to expand...

The reason? Just take a look at the difference between show Labrador Retrievers and working ones----hunting bassets and show ones,the list goes on. As for "getting up close" to Foxhounds ..the public can do exactly this at any Hunt meet with true working hounds.
  That angle is just a cover up for what one calls pot-hunting.


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## Herne (31 March 2011)

Apricot said:



*If Dazzleby's hounds are healthy and happy, which they clearly are, apart from grating against the old fashioned snobbery of certain individuals - which to an outsider come across as childish and ridiculous - WHAT DOES IT MATTER?*

Click to expand...

It matters because judging in a ring is a very poor way of assessing the working characteristics of a breed, and people who are interested in showing will breed towards characteristics that they think are good for the show ring, not for those characteristics that are necessary for the working animal.

There are countless examples of this, where breeding for showing has introduced infirmities into working breeds. Just look at all the hip dysplasia in Labradors and German Shepherds.

More relevantly, look at the links in post #80 of this thread and compare what the hunting basset hound looks with what the Kennel Club thinks a show basset should look like.

Hunting people are worried that if the showing world gets its hands on the foxhound, they will do to it what they have *already* done to the Basset Hound.

This is *NOT* a case of stuffy, arrogant hunting gentry saying to the hoi-polloi "how dare you have the effrontery to think you can play with our toys".

This is the case of the hunting world looking at what has *already happened* many times in the past and screaming at the showing world "For God's sake, will you please look at what you have already done, learn by your mistakes and *STOP* before you do it again!!!"


Personally, I was disappointed when I (very politely) asked Dazzleby how she thought that the foxhound could be protected from going down the same line as the basset, all she could say to me was that "bassets had nothing to do with her."

If she does love the breed as she says she does, I would hope that she is able to think a bit harder on the problem than that.


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## glamourstar (31 March 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			If you must blaspheme, it's 'for God's sake'!
		
Click to expand...

Funny!

Your knowledge of grammar and punctuation is second to none.  Thank you very much for picking up on that, it has really contributed to this thread .


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## Dazzleby (31 March 2011)

There's an old saying on forums.   When someone starts correcting punctuation or spellings it because they know they are losing the argument.

OOOPs  sorry MISS!!!!


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## Alec Swan (31 March 2011)

Dazzelby,

would you be kind enough,  now that you're back,  to put my mind at rest,  and answer my often asked questions?

Alec.


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## Dazzleby (31 March 2011)

Is that the question  ' What are my  plans for the future' ?

   Answer:   To continue to have fun with my hounds.

                 To be wealthy enough that I can spend all my time with my hounds.

            and   to help hounds in need,  through Foxhound Rescue UK.


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## rosie fronfelen (31 March 2011)

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit and purile-


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## Alec Swan (31 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			Is that the question  ' What are my  plans for the future' ?

   Answer:   To continue to have fun with my hounds.

                 To be wealthy enough that I can spend all my time with my hounds.

            and   to help hounds in need,  through Foxhound Rescue UK.
		
Click to expand...

Dear Lord,  I was hoping for a sensible response.  I'm now prepared to be a little less than courteous,  and inform you that you have no business with hounds.  Your wealth will be of little use to the Foxhound,  as a type.

I would be more than happy to take issue,  with any Master who supports your apparently profit driven stance.

Alec.


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## EAST KENT (31 March 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Dear Lord,  I was hoping for a sensible response.  I'm now prepared to be a little less than courteous,  and inform you that you have no business with hounds.  Your wealth will be of little use to the Foxhound,  as a type.

I would be more than happy to take issue,  with any Master who supports your apparently profit driven stance.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

You,me and a good few others of any genuine hunting folk!


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## MerrySherryRider (31 March 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			You,me and a good few others of any genuine hunting folk!
		
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Well perhaps just the handful of knicker twisters on here.


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## Dazzleby (31 March 2011)

This thread gets funnier and funnier!

I like the knicker twister bit.


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## Maesfen (31 March 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			You,me and a good few others of any genuine hunting folk!
		
Click to expand...

Sadly, knowing one of the Masters in question as mentioned on their website,  it doesn't surprise me.


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## Dazzleby (31 March 2011)

Alec Swan said:



*FOXHOUNDS AT CRUTFS?.......FFS,  WHAT NEXT?*

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

would you care to explain the abbreviations please...........I have led a very sheltered life.


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## JanetGeorge (31 March 2011)

glamourstar said:



			Funny!

Your knowledge of grammar and punctuation is second to none.  Thank you very much for picking up on that, it has really contributed to this thread .
		
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You're not very bright, are you.  It was the blasphemy I was objecting to!  The careless punctuation was secondary!


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## EAST KENT (31 March 2011)

Reading back amongst D`s post..she claims a "huntsman" asked if she would consider mating her pet bitch to one of their hounds.Now, as I know it a bitch has to prove herself over SEVERAL seasons as well as having decent conformation to even be considered as a suitable brood.What kind of huntsman,then, enquires about a pet/unhunted bitch. Just does`nt hold up does it? And ,what hunt and what huntsman??


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## Alec Swan (31 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			would you care to explain the abbreviations please...........I have led a very sheltered life.
		
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This forum doesn't permit for an accurate response,  except to say,  that my comment was a simple release at the exasperation,  brought on by anybody who could be quite so self centred,  avaricious and thoughtless,  and promote themselves,  by electing to take a type of hound,  and promote it for their own selfish ends.  

Alec.


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## EAST KENT (31 March 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Reading back amongst D`s post..she claims a "huntsman" asked if she would consider mating her pet bitch to one of their hounds.Now, as I know it a bitch has to prove herself over SEVERAL seasons as well as having decent conformation to even be considered as a suitable brood.What kind of huntsman,then, enquires about a pet/unhunted bitch.  What sort of huntsman wants to end up with a litter of possible working disasters? And what kind of hunt wants a whole litter walked by one person..bit desparate for walkers it seems.Just does`nt hold up does it? And ,what hunt and what huntsman??
		
Click to expand...

   Sorry,another question...WHY on your website  Guestbook are there 21 pages of praising comments,but each of the 21 pages is identical??
  So,you seem to "compete" against yourself..with a "rare" breed (NOT) and you need to duplicate pages and pages on your guestbook..WHY??


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## Alec Swan (31 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			Is that the question  ' What are my  plans for the future' ?

   Answer:   To continue to have fun with my hounds.

                 To be wealthy enough that I can spend all my time with my hounds.

            and   to help hounds in need,  through Foxhound Rescue UK.
		
Click to expand...

Would it,  perhaps be easier for you,  if I were to ask my questions,  but one at a time?

Here's the first;  how do you dispose of those puppies,  which don't aspire to the standards set by The Kennel Club?

Alec.


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## JanetGeorge (31 March 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			There's an old saying on forums.   When someone starts correcting punctuation or spellings it because they know they are losing the argument.
		
Click to expand...

And there's another saying - when people ignore direct questions and instead post sarky comments it's because the answers to the questions won't help them at all!!

And you're wrong - people correct punctuation and spelling because some people's carelessness with it becomes downright aggravating to a grammar pedant!


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## glamourstar (31 March 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			If you must blaspheme, it's 'for God's sake'!
		
Click to expand...




JanetGeorge said:



			You're not very bright, are you.  It was the blasphemy I was objecting to!  The careless punctuation was secondary!
		
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hehehe you are a funny one are you not Jan?...I think that you will find that the implication in the first quote is that I am allowed to blaspheme but if I am to do that I really should be less careless with my punctuation.  If, in fact that was not the point that you are trying to make then you may want to re-word your put downs in future? ...just a thought .

...and I am also immensely enjoying the fact that you have publically cast aspersions, (you can google that if you are unsure of it's meaning) on my intelligence just because I do not follow the same view as you and feel that you have been condescending to other forum members...you have made my day...

p.s. I think that when you were questioning my 'brightness' you asked a question and therefore would require a question mark after the 'are you'.  Tut tut tut, careless puntuation Jan!


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## JanetGeorge (31 March 2011)

glamourstar said:



			hehehe you are a funny one are you not Jan?...I think that you will find that the implication in the first quote is that I am allowed to blaspheme but if I am to do that I really should be less careless with my punctuation.  If, in fact that was not the point that you are trying to make then you may want to re-word your put downs in future? ...just a thought 

Click to expand...

You may have inferred that, but it wasn't my intention.  I object to blasphemy on a public forum - NOT because I am religious myself, but people who are find it offensive.  And it is made worse by ignorant punctuation.




			...and I am also immensely enjoying the fact that you have publically cast aspersions, (you can google that if you are unsure of it's meaning) on my intelligence just because I do not follow the same view as you and feel that you have been condescending to other forum members...you have made my day...
		
Click to expand...

No - I've cast aspersions on your intelligence because you have demonstrated a lack of it (as well as total ignorance over something simple like punctuation - its - when used as a possessive - does NOT have an apostrophe!




			p.s. I think that when you were questioning my 'brightness' you asked a question and therefore would require a question mark after the 'are you'.  Tut tut tut, careless puntuation Jan!
		
Click to expand...

Oh no, again you're mistaken.  I wasn't asking a question - I was making a statement - so no question mark required!

and p.s.  My name is Janet - or Mrs George!


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## glamourstar (31 March 2011)

...Loving your work Jan!


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## glamourstar (31 March 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			(as well as total ignorance over something simple like punctuation - its - when used as a possessive - does NOT have an apostrophe!
		
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...end bracket?


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## JanetGeorge (1 April 2011)

glamourstar said:



			...end bracket?

Click to expand...

Oh well DONE!  That WAS a nice easy one, but you're starting to get the hang of it.  Might be a while before you crack apostrophes though!


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## Maesfen (1 April 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			You may have inferred that, but it wasn't my intention.  I object to blasphemy on a public forum - NOT because I am religious myself, but people who are find it offensive.  And it is made worse by ignorant punctuation.
		
Click to expand...

I have to hold my hand up and say I am one of those although again, I'm not deeply religious even if I did go to a Parish Church school but old habits die hard.  If you must blaspheme, then please have the courtesy to use capitals for their name.


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## rosie fronfelen (1 April 2011)

glamourstar said:



			...end bracket?

Click to expand...

no wonder teaching is going down the pan.


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## Aesculus (1 April 2011)

Of all the comments made in the this thread one made by Dazzleby struck me as amazing and quite frankly (unfortunately) just a little arrogant

*"Some of you hardened hunters seem to be missing the point. You asked me how my beautiful Cruft's winning Best of Breed Dazzleby Dandelion was bred. I told you, by Duke of Beaufort's Milton.
Probably came as something of a surprise, but I do actually like to use a classy stallion hound on my bitches. I am very fussy about correct type, temperament, health and I want something that's biddable. I have certainly succeeded on all counts."
*
So could someone with more knowledge than me  tell me what the 'correct type' is please? 
Is is a OE Belvoir hound or an OE Percy hound? Or a Cottesmore hound?  Or perhaps its  a Banwen Miners hound or an East Kent or West Street Tickham one? 
I would love to know and so would all the obviously confused hunt staff out there who have been breeding a type for their country for years. If we follow the logic in the posting, to its logical conclusion hound shows are pointless because anything not from the DoB Milton line will just not be 'up to the mark'. 
The point of a pack of hounds is that they are a team, some (to me at least)  are ugly, some have straight or curly sterns or other elements of 'non optimal' conformation but have great noses, some are athletes, others have innate intelligence or 'hound sense' but- the whole pack work together. Breeding for traits to develop 'correct type' will lead to the loss of all that diversity.
However, Dazzleby may well be right and what we have needed all along is the Kennel Club to step in and prescribe things. On the other hand perhaps there should be acceptance that the working foxhound and one bred for showing are two distinct types and we blur that distinction at our peril and that of the hound.


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## Trotters123 (1 April 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			I've read through your website,  and it would seem that it hasn't been updated for nearly 3 years.  Alec.
		
Click to expand...

I believ you have been looking at an older website. Here is a link to another one which seems much more recent.

http://www.dazzlebyfoxhounds.com/

FRANK


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## combat_claire (1 April 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			Is that the question  ' What are my  plans for the future' ?

   Answer:   To continue to have fun with my hounds.

                 To be wealthy enough that I can spend all my time with my hounds.

            and   to help hounds in need,  through Foxhound Rescue UK.
		
Click to expand...

Herne & I still have outstanding questions on p13 of this thread.

I want to know whether a working breed can be truly judged at a show that doesn't seem to have them shown loose. I also wanted to know your views on the prohibition of showing docked working breeds and whether a Kennel Club who removes pictures of dogs doing what they were bred to do from display stands can be trusted with the breed standards.

Herne's questions related to the damage that has been done to other working breeds such as the labrador and the basset hound and what safeguards you are putting in place to ensure the fox hound doesn't go the same way. 

Regards,


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## EAST KENT (1 April 2011)

Correct type is that which works well in that hounds type of country,which is why I thought it would be disasterous to use Exmoor hounds with the Ashford Valley. Obviously totally different terrain and soil..however very glad to say I was completely wrong!! The pack improved incredibly ,and are now fast and accurate..and lookers too.


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## glamourstar (2 April 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			Oh well DONE!  That WAS a nice easy one, but you're starting to get the hang of it.  Might be a while before you crack apostrophes though!

Click to expand...

...hmmm you are completely right as usual.  Well DONE YOU!- Although at least I can probably learn punctuation, (it may be a little hard with me being so lacking in brightness  ) but I am not sure if you can 'unlearn' arrogance?





Maesfen said:



			I have to hold my hand up and say I am one of those although again, I'm not deeply religious even if I did go to a Parish Church school but old habits die hard.  If you must blaspheme, then please have the courtesy to use capitals for their name.
		
Click to expand...

Masefen I am sorry to offend you, (genuinely!).  As someone who is not religious at all, (mainly due to by upbringing) I do often forget that others think differently.  I thoroughly understand the need for a capital if blasphemy is essential, and also accept that in this case I did not need to blaspheme, I hope that you accept my apology.


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## Maesfen (2 April 2011)

Thank you, of course I'll accept your graceful apology.


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## SamanthaG (5 April 2011)

IMO I havent read all posts but, look at working labs and show labs very different looking dogs, bred for purpose, one the show ring the other working, this is the same for a lot of breeds


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## POLLDARK (5 April 2011)

combat_claire said:



			herne & i still have outstanding questions on p13 of this thread.

I want to know whether a working breed can be truly judged at a show that doesn't seem to have them shown loose. I also wanted to know your views on the prohibition of showing docked working breeds and whether a kennel club who removes pictures of dogs doing what they were bred to do from display stands can be trusted with the breed standards.

Herne's questions related to the damage that has been done to other working breeds such as the labrador and the basset hound and what safeguards you are putting in place to ensure the fox hound doesn't go the same way. 

Regards,
		
Click to expand...

any breed judged at crufts or any dog show can only be judged on its' breed standard, written at a snapshot moment in time as the breed was then. Usually by experts in the working side deciding what a good example of that breed needs & should look like. Ie the beagle breed standard was written in the 19th cent for what huntsmen thought to be desirable in a good working hound then. The pack beagle has since become much finer in general than the show beagle which is adhering to the 19th cent standard. Neither is right or wrong both can hunt all day very well, with good scenting ability. There is no way in the show ring of deciding whether or not a dog is actually good at its job only that it meets the requirements of what past experts said was required to do the job. You can't judge a typist on the fact he/she has 10 fingers only that he/she needs them.


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## Dazzleby (6 April 2011)

Hi Samantha G,

Perhaps you should read all the posts. There are some very interesting ones.

There has always been people talking about the difference in types between show  and working in some breeds.

This is precisely the reason why I was adamant from the start that I would ALWAYS use the best Stallion hounds that I could find from the packs.  ie a working hound that was also correct in type and confirmation, so that the resultant offspring would not differ from the pack type of hound.

Some of the hounds that I have bred are in packs and do work.  Some of my hounds have worked and now show.  Some of my hounds have not worked, but could have, they show and/or do agility or obedience.

I do not feel it necessary to comment on docked/undocked gundog breeds as I do not have anything to do with them.


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## Dazzleby (6 April 2011)

Incidently, I would be delighted to show my Foxhounds off lead at Cruft's or any other 'showing' show for that matter as they are very good off lead.

Of course when competing at Agility shows they are off lead.  They really show how they can move then.

I have already posted some pics of my Foxhounds showing their movement on this site.

Please feel free to look at my website www.dazzlebyfoxhounds.com  for more pics.


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## Alec Swan (6 April 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			.......This is precisely the reason why I was adamant from the start that I would ALWAYS use the best Stallion hounds that I could find from the packs.  ie a working hound that was also correct in type and confirmation, so that the resultant offspring would not differ from the pack type of hound.......
		
Click to expand...

With the exception of the DOB's Milton,  a hound who patently wasn't with his breeder,  when you "used" him, could you advise us of which other packs have allowed your use of their hounds?

If you are using stallion hounds,  which live en-pack,  are they KC registered?

I've asked,  several times,  how you dispose of,  or draft out your surplus puppies.  If you return them to established packs,  as you seem to suggest,  then how do you manage to find others,  to compete against?  Or is it that you only compete against yourself?

I'm almost prepared to concede defeat,  as I've yet to have one single answer to any question which I've put to you,  Dazzelby!!  Still,  I live in hope!!

I simply don't understand what you think you will achieve,  and would be delighted were you to advise me.

Alec.


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## Dazzleby (6 April 2011)

Mr Swan..........I thought you had gone to ground!!

I have been offered the use of quite a number of different stallion hounds from different packs.  

I have always chosen the hounds that I liked best.

All the stallion hounds used are registered with the MFHA.

I do not have a large number of puppies to dispose of as you so charmingly put it.   Since 2000  I have had 3,  yes, three litters of puppies.  

As I clearly stated before  I do not do this for financial gain.

Quite a number of pups have gone into packs.  I also have  a number  of them!!! A few are in private homes.

Not all are alive now.  Would you like me to list the fatalities?

I stated before, that I am not the only private breeder of Foxhounds in the UK.  But I do not have links with these people, and I do not endorse any of their methods or activities.

I love this fit for function breed,  I love to work with it.  I promote the Foxhound.     People are able to come and meet my hounds at shows, or when I am out and about.  Not all people have the time to go to an Agricultural show or meet of hounds.
When they see my hounds they can ask questions handle the hounds, and get to know them.


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## EAST KENT (6 April 2011)

Quite simple Alec..no competition..win everything..lots of pots.Sad really. Can you imagine a horse in a one horse race "winning" it..same difference.


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## combat_claire (7 April 2011)

Dazzleby said:



			Incidently, I would be delighted to show my Foxhounds off lead at Cruft's or any other 'showing' show for that matter as they are very good off lead.
		
Click to expand...

The trouble is you have still failed to answer the basic question, which is if the hounds are not shown off lead then how can the judges possibly assess them properly. I wasn't questioning the obedience of the hounds you breed but more how you can possibly select the winner of a hound class without seeing that it moves freely and easily off couples. As I have said before the main difference between shows for hunting hounds and shows for pet hounds is that ours are compulsorily shown off their couples to show their actions and conformation at movement as well as stationary on the flags. 

You have also ignored Herne's question about safeguarding the foxhound breed after the disasters the breed standards have wreaked on the basset hound and the labrador. 

Finally you have also ignored my question of how hunting folk can have faith in an organisation which doesn't feel it can display photos of a breed doing what they were bred to do at their national showcase exhibition.


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