# Would you MRI this foot? *photos*



## catembi (23 August 2018)

Short history - 7 yo ID mare arrived from Ireland 3 or 4 weeks ago, having passed a 5-stage.  She had a vet MOT/healthcheck including trot-ups on arrival & all was fine.  Had shoes off last week - lame on near fore ever since, which is the foot with a crack in it.  It looks to me like an old abscess that burst out, is now growing down & the hoof wall below has been compromised.  B/f trimmer took the shoes off, but looking at the pictures, the hoof where the crack is has been left longer, i.e. making the area more weight bearing?  Her feet also look to me too short all over - trimmer said she had been trimmed too short even for shoes.

She is maybe 2-3/10 lame.  I am inclined to get the hoof wall adjusted so that the crack isn't so weight bearing, then just wait for it to grow out.  She is on boswellia, the active ingredient of zerobute.  We are also going to a Nic Barker b/f clinic on 1 Sept where she is going to be a demo horse.  What I can't decide is whether to get the foot MRI'd.  Not insured; been quoted £800-£900.  If it turns out that there IS a problem, I could return the horse.  I am 95% certain that it's the crack, but what if it isn't...?  Aarrrgghhh!

https://1drv.ms/f/s!ArXRIdpOCNNFvEerHyK8z2hb_sCd

https://1drv.ms/f/s!ArXRIdpOCNNFvEiWIGk5gzUQc26m

I have also got her some boots, but she's not wearing them as I don't think that's the issue.  She is no different even over stony ground with/without boots.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!ArXRIdpOCNNFvEiWIGk5gzUQc26m


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## hollyandivy123 (23 August 2018)

sorry to hear about this, 
first question how long do you have on the return? 
second has a vet been to check and a possible x-ray cheaper than an mri, and will give you an idea of internal foot balance etc?


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## Tiddlypom (23 August 2018)

hollyandivy123 said:



			sorry to hear about this, 
first question how long do you have on the return? 
second has a vet been to check and a possible x-ray cheaper than an mri, and will give you an idea of internal foot balance etc?
		
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This. I'd be thinking x rays first. You don't want to be hanging around though if you need to return the horse, I'd hope you get a refund rather than the exchange the seller usually offers for something like this if your vets are gloomy about the prognosis. But maybe it's more superficial than it looks.


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## ester (23 August 2018)

That puts me in mind rather a lot of michen's import, was it not mentioned on vetting?

I'd xray, it looks like a high tracking WLD infection to me which might need resection to resolve.


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## catembi (23 August 2018)

H'mm, okay...  Have I got this right - xray only shows bone; MRI shows bone & soft tissue?  So if I went with MRI, it would show both, rather than doing an x-ray, which would only show half the story...?

No, not mentioned on vetting.  She was totally sound though, so both sets of vets may have thought it was a superficial/inconsequential crack.

I do really like her...she's a good girl, so I would rather sort it out if it's sortable than swap her for something else which, in the general way of horses, is only going to have something else wrong with it!

Oh well, I had better bow to the inevitable & ring the vet, then.  Thank you for your input - much appreciated.


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## ihatework (23 August 2018)

I wouldn&#8217;t be jumping straight in with an MRI and I&#8217;d be surprised if any vet suggested it.
I&#8217;d probably take a quick X-ray.

I&#8217;d also be a bit annoyed Vet didn&#8217;t mention the crack (and the seller) especially as purchased unseen.


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## ester (23 August 2018)

Xray will show a gas pocket if infection. 

I don't see how anyone could see that as superficial or non-consequential enough not to mention!


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## DabDab (23 August 2018)

Eek, that defect is a)large and b)unusual. 

With that in mind, if you're intending to keep I would x Ray, mri and set aside a year before you'll have got the hoof properly in good nick again.

If you're not intending to keep then harass the vet who did the vetting and try to return.


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## catembi (23 August 2018)

What would an X-ray show that an MRI wouldnt...?

FWIW, the foot isnt warm compared with the other one, as far as I can tell. 

Oh FFS, how infuriating though!


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## ihatework (23 August 2018)

catembi said:



			What would an X-ray show that an MRI wouldn&#8217;t...?

FWIW, the foot isn&#8217;t warm compared with the other one, as far as I can tell. 

Oh FFS, how infuriating though!
		
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Nothing, the MRI would tell you more. But it would save you £800 that I wouldn&#8217;t be rushing to spend in this horse at this stage. The X-ray should pick up and major separation / gas etc which is the most likely candidate.

If the Vet genuinely thinks ligaments are involved then send back pronto


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## Pearlsasinger (23 August 2018)

I would x-ray.  That 'blemish' is hardly minor, it should surely have been noted at the vetting.  
If the problem proves to be something that just needs to grow out, I think I would shoe to allow the mare to be comfortable while the hoof grows.

And yes, if it comes to it, I would want a refund not an exchange.

Fingers crossed it's nothing too serious.


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## Pinkvboots (23 August 2018)

I agree with just having an x ray at this point, you only really do an mri if nothing is seen by x ray or a scan but looking at that foot I think the x ray will tell you what you need to know.


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## Tiddlypom (23 August 2018)

Did you get bloods taken at the vetting in Ireland?


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## catembi (23 August 2018)

Yes, bloods were taken. I wouldnt imagine theyd show much as she was sound and in work until shoes came off. Bloods at health check came back as very normal.


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## ester (23 August 2018)

It's more that you don't need an MRI to show the level of infection, if that is the cause it is likely that there aren't any soft tissue problems associated with it so it would be unnecessary to jump straight to MRI IMO.


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## Michen (23 August 2018)

As mentioned by Ester I had a very similar situation with my Irish horse which I imported unseen. His was a hole in his foot that appeared to be an old abscess hole, it got bigger and bigger and he was lame on it. I had the hoof x rayed which showed a gas pocket. Had the hoof resected and shod to stabilise the hoof. 

Hole mostly grew out but he was still ever so slightly lame, at this point I had him worked up by vet and he was found to be lame in front too. He had all four hooves MRId at liphook and there was absolutely nothing on the hind hoof (it really was just the hole causing the lameness even though by that point it was practically grown out) and mild bruising in his front feet which the vets felt could have been a concussion from overloading the fronts having had a dodgy hind hoof for a long time. 

Anyway, am waffling, but guess what Im saying is.. I would x ray and be prepared that it could take a long time for the horse to be fully sound whilst it grows out. 

As for Irish vettings, what a joke!

Edited to add, the vets farrier shod my horses hind hoof after the mri (despite me and vet agreeing it would be better to not shoe so I could properly clean the hole- rather than it being covered). This caused the hole to kick off again, I then removed the shoes and did a massive amount of long reining out on the roads- problem solved.













solid aluminum carbonate


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## TheMule (23 August 2018)

Personally I would have taken this up with the vet/ seller as soon as the horse got off the lorry- that is a serious crack!
But as others have said, an x-ray should show you what you need to know without the huge expense of MRI


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## Schollym (23 August 2018)

catembi said:



			Short history - 7 yo ID mare arrived from Ireland 3 or 4 weeks ago, having passed a 5-stage.  She had a vet MOT/healthcheck including trot-ups on arrival & all was fine.  Had shoes off last week - lame on near fore ever since, which is the foot with a crack in it.  It looks to me like an old abscess that burst out, is now growing down & the hoof wall below has been compromised.  B/f trimmer took the shoes off, but looking at the pictures, the hoof where the crack is has been left longer, i.e. making the area more weight bearing?  Her feet also look to me too short all over - trimmer said she had been trimmed too short even for shoes.

She is maybe 2-3/10 lame.  I am inclined to get the hoof wall adjusted so that the crack isn't so weight bearing, then just wait for it to grow out.  She is on boswellia, the active ingredient of zerobute.  We are also going to a Nic Barker b/f clinic on 1 Sept where she is going to be a demo horse.  What I can't decide is whether to get the foot MRI'd.  Not insured; been quoted £800-£900.  If it turns out that there IS a problem, I could return the horse.  I am 95% certain that it's the crack, but what if it isn't...?  Aarrrgghhh!

https://1drv.ms/f/s!ArXRIdpOCNNFvEerHyK8z2hb_sCd

https://1drv.ms/f/s!ArXRIdpOCNNFvEiWIGk5gzUQc26m

I have also got her some boots, but she's not wearing them as I don't think that's the issue.  She is no different even over stony ground with/without boots.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!ArXRIdpOCNNFvEiWIGk5gzUQc26m

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Is your barefoot trimmer a fully qualified farrier? I only ask as I know my farrier has a wealth of experience and has managed reoccurring abscess damage in an Irish drought cross mare. If it is any help my husband( no equine qualifications!) looked at the photos and said send it back. The vet that passed it on the 5 star check holds responsibility for not reporting this damage. Dont let your heart rule your head. You want a horse to ride not as a slightly lame pet!


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## catembi (23 August 2018)

Wow, Michen, that's an awesome hole!  Thank you for sharing.

SchollyM, b/f trimmer isn't a vet & I am not at all sure that the foot has been left in an optimal state wrt the crack.  Another fully qualified remedial farrier who is v good, to the extent that people would know who he was if I said the name, saw her yesterday & has said to shoe, at least in front, until the crack grows out.

I have sent the photos to the vet who did the health check & who saw her fully sound at the time.  Current thinking is to xray the foot & go from there.   He says he 'didn't notice' the crack.  I DID notice, but as she was 100% sound, thought it was cosmetic. **sighs**


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## Red-1 (23 August 2018)

I can't remember when exactly you bought this horse, but I do know that in Ireland they don't generally keep the bloods they have drawn for 6 months like we do here. So, if you are even remotely likely to want to know the results of bloods you could do with contacting the vet ASAP to have them saved (even if you don't actually run them).


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## ester (23 August 2018)

It's possible that it isn't too much of an issue and it will grow out but you need to know what the infection status is first before proceeding. 

If it doesn't go too high up/can be accessed to that point either as is or with some dremmeling then cleantrax soaking may well resolve it sufficiently for it to grow down, but they do have a tendency like Michen's to keep tracking upwards.


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## Tiddlypom (23 August 2018)

It's strange that 2 vets have apparently not noticed this defect. Do you think that it may have been concealed with filler?


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## catembi (23 August 2018)

It *might* have been, TP, as I dont remember it being that size to start with...


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## ester (23 August 2018)

That's a good call actually TP, there are certainly plenty of high rasp marks either side.


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## Flyermc (23 August 2018)

we had a horse with white line disease, and the crack looked like that from the outside, id go for an xray ASAP


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## catembi (23 August 2018)

Hmm, I think X-ray will be booked for Wednesday. I am moving this weekend so will at long last be getting all my stuff out of storage, including my soak boot, so could do a cleantrax soak while were waiting. I have red horse sole cleanse and field paste too that I can collect on Saturday. 

I totally know I should send her back, but I like her, my elderly and non horsey husband can handle her and horses being what they are, if I got rid and got something completely different from someone else,  it might have something worse wrong with it.


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## Michen (23 August 2018)

Well for what its worrh I am so glad I couldnt send mine back, also glad he wasnt sound enough to sell as I was forced to keep him and now there would be no amount of money that hed be let go for! Love the look of your mare, its bloody annoying about the crack and may take some time and money but sounds like shes worth it. 



catembi said:



			Hmm, I think X-ray will be booked for Wednesday. I am moving this weekend so will at long last be getting all my stuff out of storage, including my soak boot, so could do a cleantrax soak while were waiting. I have red horse sole cleanse and field paste too that I can collect on Saturday. 

I totally know I should send her back, but I like her, my elderly and non horsey husband can handle her and horses being what they are, if I got rid and got something completely different from someone else,  it might have something worse wrong with it.
		
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## ester (23 August 2018)

awww you proper luvs him now


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## DabDab (23 August 2018)

Michen said:



			Well for what its worrh I am so glad I couldnt send mine back, also glad he wasnt sound enough to sell as I was forced to keep him and now there would be no amount of money that hed be let go for! Love the look of your mare, its bloody annoying about the crack and may take some time and money but sounds like shes worth it.
		
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Completely agree - a defect like that is a pita to have been lumbered with to sort out, but in the grand scheme of things it is perfectly fixable and if the rest of her is good and you're not in a desperate hurry to get out competing.....


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## catembi (23 August 2018)

Well, I half am & half am not desperate to get out competing...  Potted history - I've had various sick note horses since 2007, been divorced twice, sold my equestrian property & moved out in Dec 2017, had 3 house purchases fall thru, promised myself a new horse when I finished my doctorate, got a 5 yr course done in 4 years (v incentivised), had 2 horses fail the vet, would probs have been a good idea to wait for new house to go through but then there was yet another infuriating delay with the purchase so I just had a rush of blood to the head & bought Summer!  You know that feeling when you simply can't stand it any longer & just HAVE to buy a horse!  We are moving starting tomo.  House has land but no equestrian facilities yet, plus I have no transport yet, so it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world ever if we just mooched about for 6 months til the spring.  Every time I think I can get going (I had already retrieved my comp outfit from my parents) there is some delay, horse illness,  etc etc, so I am getting used to sighing & getting on with it.

So I can amuse myself getting planning for stables & arena (we did get a preplanning report), deciding whether to have a b/f track system, sorting out buildings etc.

Cleantrax ordered, I will get my soaking boot, book xray, start sole cleansing & field pasting & we shall see what happens.

Yes, I do proper luvs her...!!


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## ester (23 August 2018)

hehe, you and Michen don't have an entirely dissimilar horsey history, up to the rush of blood to the head .

Realistically you are going to have plenty to be getting on with for a while with the new house etc to set up.


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## catembi (23 August 2018)

Heehee   She wasn't even my first choice - having pored over the videos for ages, I popped an overheight (16hh) connie 4 yo bay gelding into my basket first & paid a deposit on him, but the dealer said he'd just sold.  So I asked what she had out of current stock or stuff coming in etc with the most jump, & she said Summer, so I said, okay, send me her, then...!  :-0

I know this hasn't exactly gone to plan, but it was hugely, hugely exciting & she is a very nice horse.


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## Michen (23 August 2018)

ester said:



			awww you proper luvs him now  

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Hes not Basil but he tries very hard


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## Michen (23 August 2018)

Sounds like she has you wrapped around her hoof already  



catembi said:



			Heehee   She wasn't even my first choice - having pored over the videos for ages, I popped an overheight (16hh) connie 4 yo bay gelding into my basket first & paid a deposit on him, but the dealer said he'd just sold.  So I asked what she had out of current stock or stuff coming in etc with the most jump, & she said Summer, so I said, okay, send me her, then...!  :-0

I know this hasn't exactly gone to plan, but it was hugely, hugely exciting & she is a very nice horse.
		
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## AdorableAlice (23 August 2018)

For 2 vets and the highly experienced OP not to have noticed that mess, surely it must have been filled and concealed ?


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## Fiona (23 August 2018)

OP did she only show lameness once the shoe was removed?   

If so,  then I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you that the shoe was stabilising what looks like a very deep defect,  and you can get her sorted .....

I'm guessing your vet and farrier will want her reshod ,  even with a plate over the crack..

Good luck for your x rays.. 

Fiona


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## Tiddlypom (24 August 2018)

Good luck with the x rays. My homebred mare had a resection for seedy toe which was even more extensive than Michen's, it went almost as high as the coronet band but it did come good. It did take about 18 months to fully grow out, because the first resection wasn't radical enough so it had to be repeated. Subsequent x rays show no evidence that it ever happened.

Have you contacted the dealer yet? I think she should know asap what you have found. I suspect that any surprise she expresses may be faked, though I am a suspicous so and so. Fingers crossed you can sort this mare out as you like her so much, but if you can't, then I hope you get some redress.


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## catembi (24 August 2018)

Yes, sound as a pound til shoes came off! We will stick to our plan as outlined above and see what happens. 

I havent contacted the dealer as I cannot be bothered getting snarled up in a ton of nastiness, and I can also afford to write off the purchase price. Its v irritating, but no worse than paying £8.5k for a superbly bred sj 4yo who after several years of increasing ingenious investigations on my part turned out to have EPSM and whom I sold for £500 as a happy hacker... (Full disclosure to buyer, who had shared him for ages.)


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## Red-1 (24 August 2018)

I am so happy that you like this horse enough to want to keep her. From what I have heard the dealer would offer an exchange, but I understand that getting a refund from someone in Ireland can get a bit 'too hard to do' to make it worthwhile. 


If she was sound before, then putting shoes back on sounds like a good plan. I would have X rays first though, just to see what you are dealing with. I presume if there was something that was definitely structural she would be back on the boat.


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## AandK (24 August 2018)

Red-1 said:



			If she was sound before, then putting shoes back on sounds like a good plan. I would have X rays first though, just to see what you are dealing with. I presume if there was something that was definitely structural she would be back on the boat.
		
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I agree with this.  I would x-ray and if there are no major issues, pop the shoes back on until the crack has grown out.  Fingers crossed, as I have followed your posts about her and she sounds like a great find (this issue aside!).


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## catembi (24 August 2018)

X-ray now booked for Wednesday. Cleantrax soak will be done on Monday, then well take it from there! Thank you for your good wishes - much appreciated &#128516;


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## tda (28 August 2018)

Sorry don't have much to add, good luck with the x-ray 
I met Nic Barker at a clinic earlier this year, will be interested to see what she says about it.  She talks a lot of sense x


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## Mule (28 August 2018)

Good. Hopefully you'll get the all clear


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## Reacher (28 August 2018)

Good luck with the X-rays - hope they clarify situation  either way.
Agree with those advising contacting the seller - with photos - sooner rather than later. 
Surely even with filler the crack would be visible under a careful inspection (like wot youd expect  at a vetting! Or were hooves coated in hoof dressing?)


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## HappyHorses:) (29 August 2018)

Good luck with the MRI

Agree with other, that is one heck of a crack to overlook in a vetting.


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## catembi (29 August 2018)

Update...xrayed today, nothing of concern, so yay for that! Crack was cleaned out with a dremel and old powdered pus removed. Crescent cut over crack so its no longer weight bearing. Bruising on white line at toe from over keen trimming before she was shod in Ireland. I now need to poultice for 3 days, then iodine the crack, and we should be good to go!


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## Fiona (29 August 2018)

That's fantastic news... So pleased for you. 

Shoes or no shoes at the moment?  

Fiona


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## Tiddlypom (29 August 2018)

Phew, what a relief. Carry on and enjoy her now .


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## DabDab (29 August 2018)

Fantastic! Hopefully once the bruising has gone then she should be sound to work and the crack can just grow out in its own sweet time :biggrin3:


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## ester (29 August 2018)

good


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## Pearlsasinger (29 August 2018)

That is good to hear!


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## catembi (29 August 2018)

No shoes! Barefoot clinic on Saturday! She basically has no hoof wall at the toe, hence bruising, so needs to crack on and grow some!


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## Lindylouanne (29 August 2018)

Cat that is very good news and glad it wasn't anything more serious.


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## Mule (29 August 2018)

Good news. I've noticed my horses' hooves grow quickly at this time of year so if she is similar then you may not have to wait too long.


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## jj_87 (30 August 2018)

catembi said:



			No shoes! Barefoot clinic on Saturday! She basically has no hoof wall at the toe, hence bruising, so needs to crack on and grow some!
		
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If you have an arc equine.. i would stick it on for a few weeks. My mare fractured her pedal bone and due to the cast we needed to wait for the "ledge" to grow out, she never grows much foot, but after using the arc the blacksmith and vet could not believe the amount of hoof she was growing!
Worth a try if you already have one


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## AandK (30 August 2018)

Excellent news! :smile3:


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## catembi (30 August 2018)

Hmm, I have the human equivalent of an arc equine... didnt think of that! I will dig it out. Thank you...!


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## Reacher (30 August 2018)

Good outcome, enjoy your horse


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## D66 (30 August 2018)

Onwards and upwards ....or downwards in the case of the hoof wall


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## catembi (3 September 2018)

Well, we wet poulticed for three days as per vet instructions, and are now irrigating with iodine. And we appear to be sound! Tootled out on a 20 minute hack yesterday and today and we are striding out and rock crunching! Lets hope it continues!


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## OldNag (3 September 2018)

Great news


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## jj_87 (4 September 2018)

catembi said:



			Well, we wet poulticed for three days as per vet instructions, and are now irrigating with iodine. And we appear to be sound! Tootled out on a 20 minute hack yesterday and today and we are striding out and rock crunching! Lets hope it continues!
		
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Awesome news!!


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## Landcruiser (7 September 2018)

I'm interested to hear how the Nic Barker clinic went OP, my horse is a demo horse at a NB clinic later this month


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## Goldenstar (7 September 2018)

Coming late to this it must have been filled for the uk vet to miss it .
I would get her on forage plus winter performance balancer at the full dose if she where mine .


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