# just got double barreled my a horse



## moodiestmare (29 September 2011)

I was giving my horse a stoke and someone elses horse just wandered up, turned around and kicked me with both legs. I can barely move my leg and its swelling up like nothing on earth.

Has this happened to anyone else, completely unprovoked. Is this the sort of thing you expect to happen with horses? ( In all the years ive kept them this had never happened so it was a bit of a shock.)

Would this make you consider moving your horse? should i tell the owner?

thanks


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## DougalJ (29 September 2011)

Poor you! How awful especially when its out the blue. I keep my horse with two friends horses and if any of them did it to me, I would tell them. Not to make an issue but for them to be aware. Hope you are on the mend soon!


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## ebonyallen (29 September 2011)

First of all I think you need to get yourself checked out (please) do you know this horse well has it ever done this before ? and yes I would mention it to the owner, I know there is nothing they can really do but they need to be aware that this has happened. Re moving yards would like to think that this is a one off so do not react to quickly. Please take care I hope it all works out OK for you. x


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## Equilibrium Ireland (29 September 2011)

First off, visit thee a hospital!

Secondly I have seen this once in a very nasty 2yo filly. She had been handled properly from birth, she was just a witch. So yes it does happen although rare. Was so glad when we didn't have clients anymore and that little terrorist was gone.

But do get yourself checked out, tell the owner, and you be careful. I mean tell the owner in a concerned way. Not an accusing way. Make sure BO knows and that everyone needs to be careful around the horse.

Terri


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## Wagtail (29 September 2011)

It sounds as though the kick was intended for your horse and not you. Your horse was probably distracted by you being there and would normally have given way to this other horse. I expect that the other horse was giving out signs to move yours away and when he didn't, let him have it. Yes, I would let the other horse owner know and the yard owner too, but it would not concern me enough to move unless the kick was definitely intended for you and not your horse.

I really hope you are okay. You probably ought to see a doctor in case.


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## moodiestmare (29 September 2011)

I have just got back from an emergency drs appt. Nothing is broken  thankfully!

I have seen this horse kick out a lot but never seen him just go up to someone like that!

Unfortunately I have a 4 yr old son and now im worried about him going into the field with this horse. As his pony is turned out with this horse it creates a bit of a problem! Also, its quite scared me!


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## Dancing Queen (29 September 2011)

you need to visit A&E now! 

as for the yard move I would mention it to the owner - i bet she will be mortified as i agree with wagtail - the kick was prob intended for your horse not you xx


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## Dancing Queen (29 September 2011)

moodiestmare said:



			I have just got back from an emergency drs appt. Nothing is broken  thankfully!

I have seen this horse kick out a lot but never seen him just go up to someone like that!

Unfortunately I have a 4 yr old son and now im worried about him going into the field with this horse. As his pony is turned out with this horse it creates a bit of a problem! Also, its quite scared me!
		
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did you have xray taken? 

I understand your concern. xx


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## MrsMozart (29 September 2011)

Wagtail said:



			It sounds as though the kick was intended for your horse and not you. Your horse was probably distracted by you being there and would normally have given way to this other horse. I expect that the other horse was giving out signs to move yours away and when he didn't, let him have it. Yes, I would let the other horse owner know and the yard owner too, but it would not concern me enough to move unless the kick was definitely intended for you and not your horse.

I really hope you are okay. You probably ought to see a doctor in case.
		
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This ^^^

Hope you're alright and the shock wears off soon.


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## Spudlet (29 September 2011)

I don't think I'd let your son in the field again, certainly not unless he's holding your hand and you know just where this horse is - it most likely was that the horse wasn't aiming at you, but if it accidentally caught your son in the same way, well... I'd speak to the owner of the horse too in a non-aggro kind of way. I would want to know if it was my horse, especially if it was in a field with a child's pony.


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## Wagtail (29 September 2011)

moodiestmare said:



			I have just got back from an emergency drs appt. Nothing is broken  thankfully!

I have seen this horse kick out a lot but never seen him just go up to someone like that!

Unfortunately I have a 4 yr old son and now im worried about him going into the field with this horse. As his pony is turned out with this horse it creates a bit of a problem! Also, its quite scared me!
		
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To be honest, I would not let a four year old go in with ANY group of horses. Even the most placid can accidentally injure such a young child.


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## moodiestmare (29 September 2011)

Wagtail said:



			To be honest, I would not let a four year old go in with ANY group of horses. Even the most placid can accidentally injure such a young child.
		
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Other than the pony there is just this one other horse. Its not a big group. Hes at the age now where he wants to go in and catch his pony (with me obviously) so it causes a bit of a problem. The gate backs onto the road so he cant stay out there!

I havent had an xray but the dr had a gd feel so I hope its nothing more.


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## fburton (29 September 2011)

Wagtail said:



			To be honest, I would not let a four year old go in with ANY group of horses. Even the most placid can accidentally injure such a young child.
		
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This! Such young children simply don't have the necessary savvy and concentration to keep themselves safe around a group of loose horses.


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## amandap (29 September 2011)

Wagtail said:



			To be honest, I would not let a four year old go in with ANY group of horses. Even the most placid can accidentally injure such a young child.
		
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I strongly agree with this too.


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## HeatherAnn (29 September 2011)

The horse was probably giving out signals long before it kicked.
 What are the genders of the horses? If your's is a mare and this is a gelding/stally, he might have been protecting his mare. 
This horse may be high in the herd and may consider you to be lower, if he's giving signals that you're not picking up on, eg tail swishing, ear positions, then you've just been corrected by a horse who thinks you need to listen more.

ETA:Rick Gore on Youtube does really good videos on herd behavior.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (29 September 2011)

moodiestmare said:



			The gate backs onto the road so he cant stay out there!
		
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Could you possibly make an electric fenced off enclosure just inside the gate? Would then be safe to leave son in & also somewhere you can take your horse or your son's pony in where the other horse cannot get too close up.

Hope the pain goes down soon x


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## Marydoll (29 September 2011)

It sounds like a nasty little ****, i wouldnt want it in with any of mine if it was unprovoked and out of the blue as you describe. It was possibly giving out signs, but if you cant read them, you could find yourself in the same position again.


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## Devonshire dumpling (29 September 2011)

Wagtail said:



			To be honest, I would not let a four year old go in with ANY group of horses. Even the most placid can accidentally injure such a young child.
		
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What Wagtail said, if it hit your leg I am guessing it would have been your little ones head and if your leg is that swollen I am guessing your little one would never be getting up again!  Sorry to sound dramatic, but never let your 4 yr old in the field and if you really must then make sure he has hat and BP on!

You sound like you are in shock, have a good cry and a cup of tea   Wish you better real soon!


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## Wagtail (29 September 2011)

moodiestmare said:



			Other than the pony there is just this one other horse. Its not a big group. Hes at the age now where he wants to go in and catch his pony (with me obviously) so it causes a bit of a problem. The gate backs onto the road so he cant stay out there!

I havent had an xray but the dr had a gd feel so I hope its nothing more.
		
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I have a permanent hole in my thigh from a horse kick so I fully sympathise. I think the idea of an electric fenced area is a good one. Now that you say there are only the two of them in the field, I wonder if this other horse sees you as the person who always removes his/her companion and leaves him/her on their own?


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## HeatherAnn (29 September 2011)

marydoll said:



			It sounds like a nasty little ****, i wouldnt want it in with any of mine if it was unprovoked and out of the blue as you describe. It was possibly giving out signs, but if you cant read them, you could find yourself in the same position again.
		
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A horse can't be nasty. There's a reason for everything a horse does.


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## binkymerlin (29 September 2011)

i would be taking a whip with me, quietly approaching my horse to catch. if said nasty horse came over it would be getting a full clear warning. the whip can be used to make you look bigger, make your posture less approachable. obvs be careful, you dont want to have a prob catching your horses. rather that than nothing at all :-/ you have a child act like a protective mare.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (29 September 2011)

A horse can be nasty. Yes there is a reason for everything including being nasty. The horse I described trotted up to my husband and wheeled around and double barrelled him. He was walking away from checking another horse. Was not in kicking proximity to other horse. This horse was never abused or mishandled. 

I don't know you and so I won't make snappy judgements, but my experience is many years with a wide variety and in a professional capacity. There are nasty horses out there and like I said extremely rare, but they do exist. 

Terri


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## HeatherAnn (29 September 2011)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			A horse can be nasty. Yes there is a reason for everything including being nasty. The horse I described trotted up to my husband and wheeled around and double barrelled him. He was walking away from checking another horse. Was not in kicking proximity to other horse. This horse was never abused or mishandled. 

I don't know you and so I won't make snappy judgements, but my experience is many years with a wide variety and in a professional capacity. There are nasty horses out there and like I said extremely rare, but they do exist. 

Terri
		
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I believe that NO animal apart from man has the capacity to be nasty. A horse that is "nasty" is either being misinterpreted, is acting out of fear/aggression or has been conditioned to act in such a manner. Nasty is human. We call an animal nasty when we don't understand why they do something... But that's just my opinion...


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## Dancing Queen (29 September 2011)

HeatherAnn said:



			I believe that NO animal apart from man has the capacity to be nasty. A horse that is "nasty" is either being misinterpreted, is acting out of fear/aggression or has been conditioned to act in such a manner. Nasty is human. We call an animal nasty when we don't understand why they do something... But that's just my opinion...
		
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I agree with you. Animals like children are products of their environment - nothing is born nasty or evil.


As for the comment of using a whip to make you bigger - you can do that without the use of a whip - raise your arms in the air and make a high pitched squeal - the same as a dominant mare.


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## PingPongPony (29 September 2011)

HeatherAnn said:



			I believe that NO animal apart from man has the capacity to be nasty. A horse that is "nasty" is either being misinterpreted, is *acting out of *fear/*aggression* or has been conditioned to act in such a manner. Nasty is human. We call an animal nasty when we don't understand why they do something... But that's just my opinion...
		
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surely if its acting out of agression then its nasty?


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## HeatherAnn (29 September 2011)

shiny-ISH said:



			surely if its acting out of agression then its nasty?
		
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Aggression in animals most of the time stems from fear or pain. In humans it can stem from jealousy/hate/fear.


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## Marydoll (29 September 2011)

HeatherAnn said:



			A horse can't be nasty. There's a reason for everything a horse does.
		
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I completely disagree, you have rose tinted specs on if you think otherwise, a horse can be nasty, and the damage they can do to you can be fatal.


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## HeatherAnn (29 September 2011)

marydoll said:



			I completely disagree, you have rose tinted specs on if you think otherwise, a horse can be nasty, and the damage they can do to you can be fatal.
		
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Rose tinted glasses? You truly believe that an animal has the capacity to be mean or nasty? No. It is a label someone gives an animal that they do not understand.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (29 September 2011)

Well look it, you go on your way and believe what you like. She was not mishandled in any way or ever abused. 

I've been there and done that and  have seen quite a bit. Like I said extremely rare but it happens. It could be her hormones making her a giant witch but guess what, it doesn't make it right. And that horse needs to be watched and delt with accordingly. As in taking the necessary caution around them. I guess it's similar to a mare you've had since she's a weanling suddenly having a foal and tries to kill you. I don't mean gives you a dirty look, tries to kill you. Of course that is forgiven. Same mare then savaged another mare's foal in a blink of an eye. No time for anyone or mare to react. Viscious and totally out of the realm of normal , even hormonal, behavoir. I don't give a crap what her issues are. Nasty miserable cow. 

See one nice thing about having spent so much time in and around horses. It teaches you humility, knowing you'll never have all the answers, and that there is always something new to learn.

Those of you that have all the answers. Well done. 

Terri


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## HeatherAnn (29 September 2011)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			Well look it, you go on your way and believe what you like. She was not mishandled in any way or ever abused. 

I've been there and done that and  have seen quite a bit. Like I said extremely rare but it happens. It could be her hormones making her a giant witch but guess what, it doesn't make it right. And that horse needs to be watched and delt with accordingly. As in taking the necessary caution around them. I guess it's similar to a mare you've had since she's a weanling suddenly having a foal and tries to kill you. I don't mean gives you a dirty look, tries to kill you. Of course that is forgiven. Same mare then savaged another mare's foal in a blink of an eye. No time for anyone or mare to react. Viscious and totally out of the realm of normal , even hormonal, behavoir. I don't give a crap what her issues are. Nasty miserable cow. 

See one nice thing about having spent so much time in and around horses. It teaches you humility, knowing you'll never have all the answers, and that there is always something new to learn.

Those of you that have all the answers. Well done. 

Terri
		
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Animals kill other animal's offspring ALL the time. The mare killing the foal could have had a hundred reasons for doing so, she may have thought that they were in competition for resources, the other mare may have been lower, in the wild, this mare would not have been bred from. I don't claim to have all the answers. I am young and have so many things left to learn. But I do take exception to humans blaming/labeling animals because the do not know what the problem is or understand. Your "years of experience" does not mean that you can dismiss other people's opinions or ideas. That just makes you seem arrogant. I came to this forum ready to learn and share. Not to be shot down by someone who thinks they have been there done that.


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## YasandCrystal (29 September 2011)

HeatherAnn said:



			A horse can't be nasty. There's a reason for everything a horse does.
		
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Ditto this. There is usually a reason.


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## Dancing Queen (29 September 2011)

HeatherAnn said:



			. I came to this forum ready to learn and share. Not to be shot down by someone who thinks they have been there done that.
		
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Or thinks that they have the answers!

HA - Take no notice and please dont take it to heart, the horsey world is full of people who think they know everything xxx I like your warmth and outlook - its very refreshing.


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## dunkley (29 September 2011)

HeatherAnn said:



			A horse can't be nasty. There's a reason for everything a horse does.
		
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marydoll said:



			I completely disagree, you have rose tinted specs on if you think otherwise, a horse can be nasty, and the damage they can do to you can be fatal.
		
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There can be thoroughly bad tempered horses, in the same way there can be thoroughly bad tempered humans. I have one. I have had it since it was a baby - it is now 12. I can assure you he has _never_ been mishandled, abused, or otherwise traumatised. Some days he is an affectionate darling, others he is a total bad tempered, aggressive S***. Some days he will fall asleep while you groom every inch of him, some days he will, in no uncertain terms, tell you to get lost! He needs reading, and appropriate handling. I would never allow anyone to go into his field unaccompanied, unless they knew him, and were "proper" horsemen. He has been known to chase people out with a combination of feet and teeth. So, yes, he can be damn _nasty _


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## Pearlsasinger (29 September 2011)

TBH, I don't think it is fair or reasonable to go into a field and give one of two occupants a stroke.  IMO it is asking for trouble.  The horses don't really know that one belongs to you and the other doesn't.  I have seen horses act out of jealousy  and that could well have been the case in this instance.  
OP if you want to stroke your pony, I suggest that you remove it from the field first.  It would certainly be dangerous to take a 4 yr old child into a field with any group of horses.
We keep ours at home in our own small herd.  If I want one of them, I bring them all in, in their hierarchical order and put back out the ones I don't need at that point.  This is much safer for all concerned.


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## swampdonkey (29 September 2011)

Pearlsasinger said:



			We keep ours at home in our own small herd.  If I want one of them, I bring them all in, in their hierarchical order and put back out the ones I don't need at that point.  This is much safer for all concerned.
		
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who has this kind of time ????


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## Wagtail (29 September 2011)

Pearlsasinger said:



			TBH, I don't think it is fair or reasonable to go into a field and give one of two occupants a stroke.  IMO it is asking for trouble.  The horses don't really know that one belongs to you and the other doesn't.  I have seen horses act out of jealousy  and that could well have been the case in this instance.  
OP if you want to stroke your pony, I suggest that you remove it from the field first.  It would certainly be dangerous to take a 4 yr old child into a field with any group of horses.
We keep ours at home in our own small herd.  If I want one of them, I bring them all in, in their hierarchical order and put back out the ones I don't need at that point.  This is much safer for all concerned.
		
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Wise words. Most of the times that humans get hurt in horses fields are the result of them not respecting or being aware of the hierachy. If I need the herd leader of any particular group in, then there is never a problem, but if I need one of the lower ranking individuals, then I have to take into account the horses that are above it in the pecking order. Sometimes I know there won't be a problem because the higher ranking horse(s) are very easy going, but with one of the small groups I have to remove the higher ranking horses first and then put them back (higher ranked last back in).


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## YasandCrystal (29 September 2011)

HeatherAnn - you are refreshing!! Ignore the know-it-alls please. Treat them like 'all the gear no idea!'.
My vet believes that 99.9% of horses with any aggressive behaviour do so through pain or abuse.
The horse is a flight animal - it will NOT waste energy attacking a human.

My horse was SO aggressive it was nearly pts. I dread to think what would have happened if some of the forum users owned it. I believed in him that he was screaming that something was wrong and there was. He was in chronic pain through a sacro illiac injury. He is pain free now and a different horse completely. He had been whipped for being aggressive and schooled into the ground for having attitude. Amazing what the poor horses will poke up with from humans who won't hear their screaming.
Good on you. Listen to your heart..


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## Equilibrium Ireland (29 September 2011)

HA,

Did you not read where I said I do not have all the answers. Take that any way you like but I do not sugar coat life. I'm not arrogant but I will also not dumb myself down to suit anybody. 

Horses have been my greatest teachers. You will be learning as you go too. And I don't like making blank statements. There isn't always a reason. Like I said extremely rare. I am aware animals get killed in the wild all the time. You don't want to talk to me arrogantly to you but you can to me. The ability to see other people's views who maybe have slightly more experience is helpful in learning. You don't have to agree with them but a blanket statement that basically says everyone's an idiot but me because it will never be the horses fault reeks of arrogance. 

Horses are not all wired the same. Of course many of them can be figured out but if you think with your understanding and patience and obviously extreme gifts you will solve all horse problems, you are actually wrong.

And also as you get older you realise many people have horses they are good with and an odd one they are not good with. A good horseman says, well I know who could help out here. They know other people have skills too and aren't afraid of going to others for advice or help. 

It is never one size fits all. They all teach us something and you may want to realise an odd horse is not wired right and will do things that can hurt and kill you. 

Your enthusiasm and love for horses is wonderful. Never lose that because it will get you far. 

Terri


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## Wagtail (29 September 2011)

swampdonkey said:



			who has this kind of time ????
		
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I have more time for this than the risk of injury. It would be foolish of me not to do this. However my horses are in very small groups.


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## Dancing Queen (29 September 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I have more time for this than the risk of injury. It would be foolish of me not to do this. However my horses are in very small groups.
		
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mine come in like it as well!!


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## Equilibrium Ireland (29 September 2011)

Yas and crystal

I'll send that mare to you if you believe a horse will not ever attack a human because it's a flight animal. I know the reasons why, but silly statement. 

You people with all this never mind the know it alls, you really have it all sussed. Quite funny actually.

No offense but I really have had enough of the black stallion syndrome as if you are the only person clever enough to figure out what was wrong with a horse. And where in my posts was it mentioned I put anything down for behavorial issues? 

More often than not there is a reason for behavoir. Why you think I was saying otherwise is beyond me. I am saying that was not norm what happened to OP today. Maybe horse was kicking at another horse but maybe he wasn't. Caution needs to be taken and all people with horses in the field need to be aware. 

Next thing it's the fluffy bunny brigade waging war on anyone with a different opinion. They no this because in all the world they were the only ones who figured out what was wrong with their horse.

No that's no arrogant in the slightest.

Terri


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## rhino (29 September 2011)

HeatherAnn said:



			Aggression in animals *most of the time* stems from fear or pain.
		
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Equilibrium Ireland said:



			There are nasty horses out there and like I said *extremely rare*, but they do exist. 
Terri
		
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YasandCrystal said:



			Ditto this. There is *usually* a reason.
		
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YasandCrystal said:



			My vet believes that *99.9%* of horses with any aggressive behaviour do so through pain or abuse.
		
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Aren't you all in fact agreeing that, although very rare, there may indeed be some horses (which you may not have met/handled/experienced) who may act out of agression? Not sure why everyone is getting their knickers in a twist  to be honest. 

Is it not better to accept that all horses are individuals and it's _how we deal with situations_ that is important?


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## YasandCrystal (29 September 2011)

Everyone should take care around horses, that's obvious.  Accidents do happen and of course it is best to be cautious even with the softest of horses. Same goes for dogs.There are horrific stories of people getting whiplash and worse injuries where they have kissed their horses head and horse has brought it up violently.

Nothing to do with being fluffy - horsemanship is reading the horse and it's intent and using intuition and your gut feeling when things aren't right.

I still stand by the fact that a viscious horse is indeed a very rare thing indeed!

And incidentally we never stop learning - I would never be as arrogant to think I knew a fraction of what there is to know about anything apart from what food I have in the fridge


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## YasandCrystal (29 September 2011)

rhino said:



			Aren't you all in fact agreeing that, although very rare, there may indeed be some horses (which you may not have met/handled/experienced) who may act out of agression? Not sure why everyone is getting their knickers in a twist  to be honest. 

Is it not better to accept that all horses are individuals and it's _how we deal with situations_ that is important?
		
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here here


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## Orangehorse (29 September 2011)

I had a mare that used to do this, although she would threaten first.  I could be quite innocently poo picking and she would wander over and present her backside to me!  After growling, shouting, jumping up and down and clapping my hands at her, over several weeks, in the end I threw the rubber feed bowl at her, as hard as I could and caught her on her rump.  I had to do this three times and after than she never bothered me again.  I did see her do it once more when a visitor was looking over the gate at her and she presented her bottom.

I put it down to guarding her friend.  She was a bit grumpy, but she had a difficult childhood.  I had young children at the time and had to stop them going into the field to fetch their pony, just in case.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (29 September 2011)

I will echo the sentiment in which it is nice to see such enthusiastic young people in horses.

And 20 years from now you will be passing on the wealth of knowledge you will have gathered. Because it's people like you that stick around and make a difference. 

Terri


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## YasandCrystal (29 September 2011)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			I will echo the sentiment in which it is nice to see such enthusiastic young people in horses.

And 20 years from now you will be passing on the wealth of knowledge you will have gathered. Because it's people like you that stick around and make a difference. 

Terri
		
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Now just how do you know how old everyone is??? I am no spring chicken for sure


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## pec (29 September 2011)

We have a herd of up to 8 mares depending on how we are arranging them.  There is a heirarchy within the herd that obviously can be quite fluid because we are tampering with it throughout the year by removing/introducing mares as we need to.  All our mares are well handled and friendly and we do take visitors into the field but we have to keep our wits about us and read what is going on.  If we do stroke a mare we have to be aware of where she is in the pecking order and be aware of what the other mares are 'saying'.
This is doubly important when one of our stallions is running with the mares.  Yes he is friendly and yes he will let you into the field with them but we are careful not to put ourselves between him and the mares.if you are going to take a mare out we always clip him onto a head collar.  If we have visitors into the field we clip him on, the visitors come and stoke him and say things like he is really friendly, he is but we want to keep everybody safe.
We just use common sense and keep our wits about us.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (29 September 2011)

Oh your too enthusiastic and see good everywhere Crystal. You can't be old and jaded! LOL! That's me! LOL! 

I was more referring to HA because she really is very passionate and good on her! 

Terri


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## Allover (29 September 2011)

TBH i dont care what the reason/excuse is for a horse kicking out at a human, the horse should have enough respect to know that that is NOT allowed. 

I actually cant believe that people are making excuses for a horse wandering over and kicking someone.

OP my only advice is to be carefull and send the horse away from you as soon as it looks to be coming in your direction by whatever means seem right to you at the time.

4yr olds have been going into fields with horses for a long long time, accidents sometimes happen but you could also trip in front of a bus one day!


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## Marydoll (29 September 2011)

HeatherAnn said:



			Rose tinted glasses? You truly believe that an animal has the capacity to be mean or nasty? No. It is a label someone gives an animal that they do not understand.
		
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Yes i do believe it as ive seen it, we are getting into the nature nurture argument here which has been hotly debated for decades.
You have your opinion, i have mine, we are on different sides of the fence, i have worked with some difficult and challenging horses, some have been "made that way" by poor handling but there have been a few who were nasty wee gits both to humans and other horses for no reason other than they could 
Be. I think agression like this  can be caused by both nature and nurture but i dont believe you can just disregard the nature aspect of the horse and blame everything on how its been handled.


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## ladyt25 (29 September 2011)

I haven't read all the replies but I do agree a horse cannot be 'nasty' as nasty is a term we use as humans and would mean a horse has given some thought to it's actions and that (in this case) it wants to inflict pain on a person. Horse do not think this way!  i imagine the horse in question is higher in the pecking order than the OP's horse and was probably wanting to move the OPs horse out of its way but did not take the OP being there in to account. I have a pony like this - he would NEVER intentionally kick a person but he can get a bit caught up in his temper tantrums and i am always aware to not stand behind him if it's between him an another of our 'gang'. Only this morning i was putting my horse out and pony evidently felt he was a threat to the miniscule amount of hay he had and started reversing, squealing and kicking out (this is what he does!). With him though a quick "Oi, idiot" at him usually is enough to stop him and make him aware you're there.

If this horse is really a problem then I would certainly discuss the behaviour with the owner and come to a decision of how best to sort it. As other posters said as well (and i don't have children). I wouldn't really let a 4 yo in to a field with a herd of horses. My horses are not aggressive in the slightest but they're still half a tonne of unpredictable animal!!


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## bluewhippet (29 September 2011)

rhino said:



			Aren't you all in fact agreeing that, although very rare, there may indeed be some horses (which you may not have met/handled/experienced) who may act out of agression? Not sure why everyone is getting their knickers in a twist  to be honest. 

Is it not better to accept that all horses are individuals and it's _how we deal with situations_ that is important?
		
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Couldn't agree more. It's just whether you think it suitable to use moral terms to describe the behaviour - the behaviour is the same whatever you attribute it to.


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## Piglit (29 September 2011)

I had this about 3 months ago. In 20yrs I've never been kicked, but it just showed me how complacent I had become. I was in the field just checking my pony's legs when I stood up and was launched forward having been given both barrels by the pony she was in with. I cracked 3 ribs and am subsequently having all sorts of other problems as a result. In a strange sort of way it was the best thing that happened to me. Not sure if that makes any sense.


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## Double_choc_lab (29 September 2011)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Could you possibly make an electric fenced off enclosure just inside the gate? Would then be safe to leave son in & also somewhere you can take your horse or your son's pony in where the other horse cannot get too close up.

Hope the pain goes down soon x
		
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Did you mean "electric" fence or just "fenced off" area.  Hate to think of a 4 yr old child in an electric fenced paddock - OUCHHHH


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## Marydoll (29 September 2011)

Double_choc_lab said:



			Did you mean "electric" fence or just "fenced off" area.  Hate to think of a 4 yr old child in an electric fenced paddock - OUCHHHH
		
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Pmsl, ouchy right enough


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## Beatrice5 (29 September 2011)

Haven't read whole post but I have a very settled calm herd of 3 ( Horse, yearling and pony)who live at home with us but would NEVER let my boys go into our fields without me or my husband not even to get the football etc. 

Just like I do not allow Children and dogs to be left alone together as misunderstandings between species happen.

Agree with someone else half a tonne of unpredictable beast and a child is a total "No "

Also my kids are very aware of electric fence and have seen me get zapped being careless enough times to keep away from it ;0)

I hope you sort out a satisfactory solution for all and agree horses don't have the capacity to be nasty but some are more reactive than others.


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## tallyho! (29 September 2011)

Good grief!! What an asswipe! Hope you kicked it back?

Glad you're alright. As for horse... get rid.

Only my opinoin


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## The Fuzzy Furry (29 September 2011)

Double_choc_lab said:



			Did you mean "electric" fence or just "fenced off" area.  Hate to think of a 4 yr old child in an electric fenced paddock - OUCHHHH
		
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lol  meant an enclosure by the gate and obviously the cheapest & quickest way would be to do it with electric fence.

It can always be turned off for entry/exit, etc......._(some people can be too literal!_  )

It always worries me when fields are gated onto a road etc & the handlers have nowhere to sort out stock before exiting the field. its useful even if just to bring one out of a group for its daily check/rug change etc.
Also saves the 'mud mayhem' of getting things back in too in the winter time


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## Pearlsasinger (29 September 2011)

swampdonkey said:



			who has this kind of time ????
		
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I do, because I prefer it to risking injury to horse or human.

I call, the horses come to the gate, I open the gate and let the horses up into the yard one at a time, they go into their own boxes, I close the doors.  I put back whoever I don't need, as Wagtail said, in reverse hierarchical order.  
When they were in fields further away from the yard so that it would have taken too long to bring them in, there would always be 2 of us, one to hold the boss horse out of the way but blocking any horse which was above the one we needed and one of us to lead the horse we wanted out of the gate. 
It is always wise to understand that loose horses tend to be less well-mannered than those which are being held/led.


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## jojo5 (29 September 2011)

Not sure if anyone will get this far, but the OP doesnt mention where in the field she was. This happened to me when turning my boy out once into a field with a very 'clingy' horse. Said horse was over to us as i was taking my boy's headcollar off and suddenly all three of us were bunched up together with my boy trying to turn around and walk away, the other horse up against us and the electric fence to my right. The horses could possibly have sorted themselves out, but the fence and i were in the way. The clingy horse tried to get out of the way and panicked, turned and planted both back feet on my thigh as he went. As some others have said, you need always to be aware around flight animals, and always reading what they are thinking and doing. Within seconds stuff happens.


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## HeatherAnn (29 September 2011)

dunkley said:



			There can be thoroughly bad tempered horses, in the same way there can be thoroughly bad tempered humans. I have one. I have had it since it was a baby - it is now 12. I can assure you he has _never_ been mishandled, abused, or otherwise traumatised. Some days he is an affectionate darling, others he is a total bad tempered, aggressive S***. Some days he will fall asleep while you groom every inch of him, some days he will, in no uncertain terms, tell you to get lost! He needs reading, and appropriate handling. I would never allow anyone to go into his field unaccompanied, unless they knew him, and were "proper" horsemen. He has been known to chase people out with a combination of feet and teeth. So, yes, he can be damn _nasty _

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Animals have their own personalities, yes, but they're not mean, some are just more tolerant than others. "he has been known to chase people out with a combination of feet and teeth" This is a learned behavior. He knows he can get rid of people by doing this. "proper horsemen" know how to correct these behaviors therefore he respects these people.


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## dunkley (29 September 2011)

HeatherAnn said:



			Animals have their own personalities, yes, but they're not mean, some are just more tolerant than others. "he has been known to chase people out with a combination of feet and teeth" This is a learned behavior. He knows he can get rid of people by doing this. "proper horsemen" know how to correct these behaviors therefore he respects these people.
		
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I am interested in your "learned behaviour" comment.
Where/who from?
None of his field companions act in the same way.
They have been the same companions for ever.
He is not at the top of the pecking order, nor at the bottom.
He is neither bullied, nor isolated.
If he ever threatens me (*I* am top dog) he gets short shrift.
Yes, he has a big personality, and has always been challenging.
But it is _him_, just the way he is, never been any different. 
I won't put human emotions, or thought processes, into an animal.
They don't reason, they have little brains, which is probably why we use them, not the other way round (mostly!).
I will, however, use words such as "nasty", "kind", "intelligent" "talented" etc etc to describe an animal's behaviour.  My horse can be damn rude. It's not acceptable, and he gets put back in his place. It is his _behaviour_ I am describing, not his thought processes.


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## Dolcé (29 September 2011)

ladyt25 said:



			I haven't read all the replies but I do agree a horse cannot be 'nasty' as nasty is a term we use as humans and would mean a horse has given some thought to it's actions and that (in this case) it wants to inflict pain on a person. Horse do not think this way!  i imagine the horse in question is higher in the pecking order than the OP's horse and was probably wanting to move the OPs horse out of its way but did not take the OP being there in to account. I have a pony like this - he would NEVER intentionally kick a person but he can get a bit caught up in his temper tantrums and i am always aware to not stand behind him if it's between him an another of our 'gang'. Only this morning i was putting my horse out and pony evidently felt he was a threat to the miniscule amount of hay he had and started reversing, squealing and kicking out (this is what he does!). With him though a quick "Oi, idiot" at him usually is enough to stop him and make him aware you're there.

If this horse is really a problem then I would certainly discuss the behaviour with the owner and come to a decision of how best to sort it. As other posters said as well (and i don't have children). I wouldn't really let a 4 yo in to a field with a herd of horses. My horses are not aggressive in the slightest but they're still half a tonne of unpredictable animal!!
		
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Horses do think this way!  One of my 'more difficult' ponies had played up for the farrier whilst OH was holding him and OH smacked him.  The next night, after bringing in and feeding we were doing our checks and were in said pony's box which he shared with his son.  As we walked behind the boys, the way we did every night, I watched the pony turn and 'measure' the kick he gave my OH, he was very careful not to get me. This pony had never kicked before in the 5 years I had owned him (from being a youngster) and has never once kicked since.  He kicked to pay OH back for smacking him because he was upset about it.  This was over 24 hours after he had been smacked (and it was a smack, not a beating)


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## HeatherAnn (29 September 2011)

dunkley said:



			I am interested in your "learned behaviour" comment.
Where/who from?
None of his field companions act in the same way.
They have been the same companions for ever.
He is not at the top of the pecking order, nor at the bottom.
He is neither bullied, nor isolated.
If he ever threatens me (*I* am top dog) he gets short shrift.
Yes, he has a big personality, and has always been challenging.
But it is _him_, just the way he is, never been any different. 
I won't put human emotions, or thought processes, into an animal.
They don't reason, they have little brains, which is probably why we use them, not the other way round (mostly!).
I will, however, use words such as "nasty", "kind", "intelligent" "talented" etc etc to describe an animal's behaviour.  My horse can be damn rude. It's not acceptable, and he gets put back in his place. It is his _behaviour_ I am describing, not his thought processes. 

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I don't mean learned as in he's seen someone do it, but rather he's done it to someone he didn't respect and it worked, he learned to do that to get rid of people. Everyone uses personification on animals, I'm just trying to point out that and animal can't be mean or kind because they don't have the capabilities, but they do have characteristics that can be associated with the human norm of this trait. You're right, they have very little reasoning, but when they know something works to their advantage, they are more likely to repeat it. Eg you tell a dog to sit, he sits, he gets a treat. He learns that sitting=treat/affection.


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## baymareb (30 September 2011)

HeatherAnn said:



			I came to this forum ready to learn and share. Not to be shot down by someone who thinks they have been there done that.
		
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But that's exactly what you're doing - dismissing others' opinions and experiences. You can't have it both ways - wanting people to give weight to your opinion but you not giving weight to theirs.

And frankly, I do disagree with you. Horses are not aggressive solely from fear or pain. Some horses are aggressive because they have an aggressive temperament - you can breed aggression you know, just as you can breed for docility.


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## Tinypony (30 September 2011)

Even an "aggressive" horse will give some warning of what's coming.  The problem is that we can miss it, and also the warning can be quite brief.
The severity of the resulting damage to the human tends to be applied to the horse's personality.  So if the horse just shoves it's "cheeky", if it nips it's "naughty" and if it makes contact with hooves it's "aggressive".  Whatever, this horse felt a need for either op or her horse to move and they didn't.  It is hard sometimes when one horse in a field is getting attention (and maybe a treat or two) and the other horse isn't.
As others have said, I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that this is a nasty horse, I'd change the way I managed the situation so that I avoided the situation again.  4 year old child in an enclosure by the gate, never in the field with you and more than one horse.  Catch up your horse and take it to the enclosure for fuss and the sort of slow stuff that you do with a 4 year old at your elbow.  Also, take something like a spare leadrope into the field with you and use that to spin at the other horse to ask him to stay away (with the clip in your hand) - right from the moment you go into the field.  Get into the habit of asking this horse to keep it's distance when you're dealing with your own horses.  I see so many people catching or otherwise dealing with their horses while others crowd in around them.  There's no need to do that and it's likely to cause problems.


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## M_G (30 September 2011)

Quote de Pearlsasinger
We keep ours at home in our own small herd. If I want one of them, I bring them all in, in their hierarchical order and put back out the ones I don't need at that point. This is much safer for all concerned.

With my horses I am the herd leader


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## Marydoll (30 September 2011)

baymareb said:



			But that's exactly what you're doing - dismissing others' opinions and experiences. You can't have it both ways - wanting people to give weight to your opinion but you not giving weight to theirs.

And frankly, I do disagree with you. Horses are not aggressive solely from fear or pain. Some horses are aggressive because they have an aggressive temperament - you can breed aggression you know, just as you can breed for docility.
		
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Agree with this


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## fburton (30 September 2011)

"Nasty" is a human construct - unique to us, or shared with other primates. A horse may act out of aggression, but any nastiness is in the eye of the beholder i.e. us humans. Is it meaningful to say that a wasp stinging someone was acting out of nastiness? Horses lack the ability to think in such high-level, moralistic terms. Even if you insist on describing the horse's violent behaviour directed at a person as "nasty", you risk coming up with an inappropriate response if you assume that the horse's nastiness is like that of human. The sad thing is that actually happens! People respond to bad behaviour in horses in hopelessly counterproductive ways - like punishing a horse long after it has misbehaved because "he knows that kicking is wrong" (for example).



Allover said:



			TBH i dont care what the reason/excuse is for a horse kicking out at a human, the horse should have enough respect to know that that is NOT allowed.
		
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Rather that saying that respect leads a horse to behave in ways that we like, you can turn it around and say that good behaviour is what seems respectful to us - i.e. you teach good behaviour and get "respect" as a result, instead of teaching respect and getting good behaviour as a result. I very much prefer to teach good behaviour.


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## Wagtail (30 September 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Even an "aggressive" horse will give some warning of what's coming.  The problem is that we can miss it, and also the warning can be quite brief.
The severity of the resulting damage to the human tends to be applied to the horse's personality.  So if the horse just shoves it's "cheeky", if it nips it's "naughty" and if it makes contact with hooves it's "aggressive".  Whatever, this horse felt a need for either op or her horse to move and they didn't.  It is hard sometimes when one horse in a field is getting attention (and maybe a treat or two) and the other horse isn't.
As others have said, I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that this is a nasty horse, I'd change the way I managed the situation so that I avoided the situation again.  4 year old child in an enclosure by the gate, never in the field with you and more than one horse.  Catch up your horse and take it to the enclosure for fuss and the sort of slow stuff that you do with a 4 year old at your elbow.  Also, take something like a spare leadrope into the field with you and use that to spin at the other horse to ask him to stay away (with the clip in your hand) - right from the moment you go into the field.  Get into the habit of asking this horse to keep it's distance when you're dealing with your own horses.  I see so many people catching or otherwise dealing with their horses while others crowd in around them.  There's no need to do that and it's likely to cause problems.
		
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Excellent advice!


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## Wagtail (30 September 2011)

I agree with fburton and others regarding 'nasty' horses. 'Nasty' is a conscious behaviour that cannot be applied to horses because they do not have the concept of 'nasty'. Some horses may have a temperament that makes them more likely to act aggressively. They virtually always have a reason, be it fear, anger, or purely a hierachy issue. Some horses have such a short fuse that they are not suitable for being a domestic horse. Such horses could be termed as dangerous and should be PTS. However, MOST horses that behave this way do so for a solvable reason, and can be turned around through good horsemanship and understanding into well adjusted and well behaved equines.


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## OldNag (30 September 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Even an "aggressive" horse will give some warning of what's coming.  The problem is that we can miss it, and also the warning can be quite brief.
The severity of the resulting damage to the human tends to be applied to the horse's personality.  So if the horse just shoves it's "cheeky", if it nips it's "naughty" and if it makes contact with hooves it's "aggressive".  Whatever, this horse felt a need for either op or her horse to move and they didn't.  It is hard sometimes when one horse in a field is getting attention (and maybe a treat or two) and the other horse isn't.
As others have said, I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that this is a nasty horse, I'd change the way I managed the situation so that I avoided the situation again.  4 year old child in an enclosure by the gate, never in the field with you and more than one horse.  Catch up your horse and take it to the enclosure for fuss and the sort of slow stuff that you do with a 4 year old at your elbow.  Also, take something like a spare leadrope into the field with you and use that to spin at the other horse to ask him to stay away (with the clip in your hand) - right from the moment you go into the field.  Get into the habit of asking this horse to keep it's distance when you're dealing with your own horses.  I see so many people catching or otherwise dealing with their horses while others crowd in around them.  There's no need to do that and it's likely to cause problems.
		
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That's really helpful - thank you.  My pony has moved fields and I now have to go thorugh fields with several horses, to get her to and from her field.  It's becoming quite difficult at times and - having only looked after stabled horses before - I wasn't sure how to handle the situation safely when the other horses start coming too close.  Spare lead rope is an excellent idea.


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## HeatherAnn (30 September 2011)

baymareb said:



			But that's exactly what you're doing - dismissing others' opinions and experiences. You can't have it both ways - wanting people to give weight to your opinion but you not giving weight to theirs.

And frankly, I do disagree with you. Horses are not aggressive solely from fear or pain. Some horses are aggressive because they have an aggressive temperament - you can breed aggression you know, just as you can breed for docility.
		
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I expressed an opinion and it was dismissed by someone "who has been round horses all their lives" When someone uses this excuse to actively dismiss my opinion then IMO I have every right to dismiss their opinion. Which is not something I would normally do, but in this case I nearly 100% disagree with their view. I haven't said that horses can't have aggressive tendencies. I actually pointed out that temperament can be a factor in tolerance.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (30 September 2011)

HA, I actually wrote some nice things about you but they've been dismissed. 

When talking between humans about horses we use terms we can understand and relate to. I can't type horse on a forum, they haven't taught me yet. 

And with bringing horses in from a field, I'm on my own. I do not have time for disrespect on their parts. I've never given it much thought because if I need someone I go and get them. That is the way it is. As a previous poster said, I am the herd boss.

Terri


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## fburton (30 September 2011)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			When talking between humans about horses we use terms we can understand and relate to.
		
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Yes, terms that we also hope won't mislead ourselves or others into unproductive lines of thought and action. Not saying that e.g. "nasty", "naughty" or "respect" (to take three common terms) are bound to be misleading - but the potential is certainly there!


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## PolarSkye (30 September 2011)

moodiestmare said:



			I have just got back from an emergency drs appt. Nothing is broken  thankfully!

I have seen this horse kick out a lot but never seen him just go up to someone like that!

Unfortunately I have a 4 yr old son and now im worried about him going into the field with this horse. As his pony is turned out with this horse it creates a bit of a problem! Also, its quite scared me!
		
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I'm sorry - I'm going to sound like the health and safety police, but . . . please don't take your 4-year-old with you into the field - no matter which horse is in there.  I realize this may be impractical, but horses are skitty flight animals and anything could happen - and your little boy's head and face are right at "kick height."

That said, I agree with whoever said the kick was probably intended for your horse but it still warrants mentioning to the owner.  At our previous yard there was a particularly nasty gelding who was in with my boy.  Said gelding was also a nighmare when tied up on the yard - to horses and humans alike . . . very handy with his feet and teeth, so we all learned to steer clear of both ends.  

P


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## Cortez (30 September 2011)

HeatherAnn said:



			A horse can't be nasty. There's a reason for everything a horse does.
		
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Sorry, but horses CAN be nasty, never mind the reasons! Just as they can be clever, stupid, grumpy, high spirited, sensitive, dull. They are individuals and not all the same.


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## PolarSkye (30 September 2011)

So - now that we appear to have completely hijacked this thread to talk about what constitutes "aggression" in a horse . . . LOL.

I have a question - I keep hearing (or should that be reading) about horses who wouldn't DREAM of kicking out at a person but don't like other horses - and somehow that's all down to herd dynamics and doesn't mean the horse is aggressive (I'm not going to use the word "nasty").  What about horses who will go out of their way to kick out at or bite people?  I get that said horses may have insecurity issues which make them defensive . . . but when does defensiveness cross over into aggression (or doesn't it ever?).  

A gelding at our previous yard was a real so-and-so . . . always raised his foot and struck out or got his teeth out if anyone walked past (in or out of range) . . . he was the same in the field - saw him double barrel the herd boss right in the chest for no reason I could decipher (which, I accept, doesn't mean there wasn't a reason).  I totally accept that he may have been "made" that way by people, or perhaps other horses . . . but at what point do other liveries get to stop make allowances for his (frankly) anti-social behaviour because it isn't his fault - and hold his owner accountable?  

If people make horses aggressive, then isn't it up to owners of aggressive horses to do something to make them less anti-social?  I keep my horse for pleasure - I don't necessarily mind having to remember to steer a wide berth around someone else's horse b/c he or she wants to take a chunk out of me - but it still isn't particularly "nice."

P


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## AMH (30 September 2011)

I think one of the issues with keeping horses in livery is that the only horse whose behaviour one really has any influence over is one's own. I have sympathy with the idea that most horses which show aggressive tendencies have been 'made' that way by poor/unpleasant handling, but it's not my responsibility to make allowances for the behaviour of someone else's horse.

If the animal has a history of doing this kind of thing, then anyone who needs to be involved with it should be made aware so that they can be mindful of the fact. Of course we should always be watchful around horses as we know they're not predictable animals all the time, but forewarned is forearmed and all that. I think I would speak to the animal's owner, in as non-confrontational style as possible, and the YO, because I'd feel dreadful if the horse did it to someone else and I hadn't made anyone aware. 

I don't wish to be judgemental regarding small children around horses - I remember being in stables and fields with horses from a very young age, although never unsupervised. I think that's partly where most of us gain our 'horse sense'.


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## fburton (30 September 2011)

PolarSkye said:



			I have a question - I keep hearing (or should that be reading) about horses who wouldn't DREAM of kicking out at a person but don't like other horses - and somehow that's all down to herd dynamics and doesn't mean the horse is aggressive (I'm not going to use the word "nasty").
		
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I like "aggressive" - it's not a loaded word like "nasty".




			A gelding at our previous yard was a real so-and-so . . . always raised his foot and struck out or got his teeth out if anyone walked past (in or out of range) . . . he was the same in the field - saw him double barrel the herd boss right in the chest for no reason I could decipher (which, I accept, doesn't mean there wasn't a reason).
		
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This is an important observation that's worth quoting again. Being "herd boss" is no guarantee that you won't be the target of aggressive behaviour. Arguably it is better to be liked rather than feared or viewed with distrust or wariness. Personally I think too much is made of the idea of subordinates "respecting" dominants. The way that horses lower in the dominance hierarchy are displaced by (i.e. get out of the way of) higher ranking horses may look like respect to us, but to what extent is it like the human attitude? Very little, it seems to me!


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## scarymare (30 September 2011)

HeatherAnn said:



			A horse can't be nasty. There's a reason for everything a horse does.
		
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Not true.  I've had one filly from a foal and she was nasty from day one.  I know nothing bad ever happened to her.  She did improve with alot of work though.


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## scarymare (30 September 2011)

I/we got double barrelled also at an SJ on Sunday in the collecting ring.  I was on my horse standing next to a mare whom I had sold a year previously.  She always hated my gelding and towards the later stages had to be separated from him.  She is the cleverest horse I have ever owned and I would lay money that right from the start (we are out alot together) she knew exactly who he was.  Doesn't fit with any theory/logic but if it is true (and I believe it to be) then it just goes to show how calculating they can be!


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## fburton (30 September 2011)

scarymare said:



			I/we got double barrelled also at an SJ on Sunday in the collecting ring.  I was on my horse standing next to a mare whom I had sold a year previously.  She always hated my gelding and towards the later stages had to be separated from him.  She is the cleverest horse I have ever owned and I would lay money that right from the start (we are out alot together) she knew exactly who he was.  Doesn't fit with any theory/logic but if it is true (and I believe it to be) then it just goes to show how calculating they can be!
		
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Was it rational calculation or was it pure emotion? Either way, she clearly has a good memory!


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## Tinypony (30 September 2011)

OldNag said:



			That's really helpful - thank you.  My pony has moved fields and I now have to go thorugh fields with several horses, to get her to and from her field.  It's becoming quite difficult at times and - having only looked after stabled horses before - I wasn't sure how to handle the situation safely when the other horses start coming too close.  Spare lead rope is an excellent idea.
		
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(I just wanted to pick up on this reply to my post).
Oldnag, that could be quite a tricky situation you're dealing with.  If you're dealing with larger numbers of horses, that aren't normally living in the same field as your pony, just be careful.  It's one thing to send one pushy field companion away, another to sort out a group of them milling around you.  I'm pretty confident of my advice in Op's case, where there are two horses involved that are used to each other.  In your situation I'd be more cautious and probably want to see what's happening before trying to help you.
Anyway, stay safe.


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## Tinypony (30 September 2011)

p.s.  I can't help sharing a thought that just came into my mind.  "Parelli People" tend not to have problems with getting mobbed when dealing with their horses in the field.  As a result of intensive "Friendly Game" sessions they are often able to stand next to their horse while holding their orange stick aloft over both of their heads and whirl the 6 ft string on the end around in noisy circles.  Their horse will stand happily under this while the rest of the herd leap about in horror.  Effective though it may be, for some reason it pisses other owners off no end.


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## rhino (30 September 2011)

Tinypony said:



			they are often able to stand next to their horse while holding their orange stick aloft over both of their heads and whirl the 6 ft string on the end around in noisy circles.  Their horse will stand happily under this while the rest of the herd leap about in horror.  Effective though it may be, for some reason it pisses other owners off no end.
		
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Yes, can't say I would be too impressed with some idiot waving a whip around in my horses field to try and make him 'leap about in horror' 

ETA I can understand taking an extra leadrope or short whip in a field _for your own safety_ but if anyone tried the above stunt in a field with my horse I would be very, very angry. It has taken a long time and a lot of input from my lovely classical dressage YO to make my horse comfortable around whips


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (30 September 2011)

Sorry haven't read through some of the replies here OP, but when my horse booted me recently I found that taking homeopathic Arnica was a huge help. You can also get gel to rub in.

You've been to Casualty so that's good, but I'd also visit your doctor for a look-see later on in the week just to make sure all is well.

When I saw my doctor, she prescribed something called Hirudoid cream; which you don't need a prescription for and said this would help with the bruising/swelling.

Going back to what actually happened i.e one horse being jealous of the other having attention and lashing out: we had a livery horse here ages ago who was turned out with my old boy - there was just the two of them out in the field and they got all lovey-dovey and pair-bonded, but this particular horse would get very possessive if you tried to go in and get my old boy out and would be insanely jealous if I went out and started to lead him in, to the extent of coming at you with teeth and pulling horrid faces, and he meant it, he wasn't acting. He was always a bit riggy, this particular horse, thinking about it ....

Anyway, I decided I'd had enough one day and went out there (with hat, body protector etc!!! i.e. as safe as could be) plus a lunging whip and as soon as matey started his nonsense I let him see that I meant business.

Problem sorted PDQ! Result: one mannerly horse and owner who could go and get her horse in without risking life and limb! 

Sorry peeps, no offence intended ......... but there's times when you gotta say "stuff the parelli, its back to old fashioned methods ...!!!")


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## JFTDWS (30 September 2011)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			Sorry haven't read through some of the replies here OP, but when my horse booted me recently I found that taking *homeopathic *Arnica was a huge help.
		
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Or you could just drink some tap water, for all the good it will do you


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## HeatherAnn (30 September 2011)

JFTD said:



			Or you could just drink some tap water, for all the good it will do you 

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Whenever someone mentions Homeopathic medicines. I think of Tim Minchin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0W7Jbc_Vhw


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## tazzle (30 September 2011)

rhino said:



			Yes, can't say I would be too impressed with some idiot waving a whip around in my horses field to try and make him 'leap about in horror' 

ETA I can understand taking an extra leadrope or short whip in a field _for your own safety_ but if anyone tried the above stunt in a field with my horse I would be very, very angry. It has taken a long time and a lot of input from my lovely classical dressage YO to make my horse comfortable around whips 

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the said piece of equipment is not being used as a whip and would not come inot contact at all with any horse 




			and whirl the 6 ft string on the end around in noisy circles
		
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andl I would imagine that a piece of string making a noise would only be employed if said horse were trying to "mob" aforesaid parelli type person  ...... if nedlets are minding their own business or being polite in any interactions there will be no need for any actions at all 

the same effect can be gained from twirling a rope, a headcollar or even a a "bagonastick"     ..... if it were a non parelli person defending themselves from horses crowding round in an intimidating  way with some sort of arm extension or energy creating device would you respond the same way ? .. the leadrope and an orangestick with string are used in the same manner in this instance .. 

of course tinypony may have had tongue in cheek at the end of her post, I dont know


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## Marydoll (30 September 2011)

JFTD said:



			Or you could just drink some tap water, for all the good it will do you 

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I disagree, Arnica is really beneficial for settling bruising, i use it to good effect on my horses and myself, as does my vet.


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## rhino (30 September 2011)

tazzle said:



			the same effect can be gained from twirling a rope, a headcollar or even a a "bagonastick"     ..... if it were a non parelli person defending themselves from horses crowding round in an intimidating  way with some sort of arm extension or energy creating device would you respond the same way ? .. the leadrope and an orangestick with string are used in the same manner in this instance .. 

of course tinypony may have had tongue in cheek at the end of her post, I dont know 

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I like the _assumption_ that I'm anti parelli - my opinion is that the method TP mentioned could be very dangerous in the wrong hands.

In OP's case it sounds like there is only one other horse in the field with her pony (?pair bonding/attachment issues) and I would happily take a short whip/leadrope into the field if I felt it necessary.

TP's suggestion of whirling a rope around in a field with a number of horses seems to be very risky, when you purposefully wind up a group of horses you can never judge how they will react - kicking/barging/running off. I have horrible visions of someone trying this and getting squashed/run over/run through :/


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## Marydoll (30 September 2011)

rhino said:



			I like the _assumption_ that I'm anti parelli - my opinion is that the method TP mentioned could be very dangerous in the wrong hands.

In OP's case it sounds like there is only one other horse in the field with her pony (?pair bonding/attachment issues) and I would happily take a short whip/leadrope into the field if I felt it necessary.

TP's suggestion of whirling a rope around in a field with a number of horses seems to be very risky, when you purposefully wind up a group of horses you can never judge how they will react - kicking/barging/running off. I have horrible visions of someone trying this and getting squashed/run over/run through :/
		
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Id go bloody ape if i caught someone wheeing a bloody whip around their head in a field wi my horses in it, especially when they know it'll noise up the other horses but not theirs
How would you feel if you set them off and something came in injured or worse broke a leg skying around because you set them off in this manner.
Not only is it inconsiderate its downright dangerous.
What you inflict on your own horse as training is your business, but its not ok if it affects mine in this manner


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## Tickles (30 September 2011)

Arnica is herbal, but not (usually at any rate) homoeopathic. So, there is some of the 'active' ingredient in there. 

I've used the cream on bruised areas over a number of years and *think* I've seen bruises progress faster when treated with it.

Even if just placebo it can make you feel better about them!


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## tazzle (30 September 2011)

well I dont know if you are anti parelli rhino but you did use the word "idiot" in response to the description of what was described  , imo that does not infer endearment to aforesaid person  /action. 


I think  that you ( and others)  also said a leadrope was acceptable to whirl around  in defense if horse(s) are endangering the human and tinypony appears to be saying the same ...... she did not say that she would set out to wind up horses just for the sake of it, just get them out the way.  She appeared to be responding to a poster that said she had to go through several fields of horses where she felt a threat existed to her and her horse.

I did not take it that she was advising anyone to actually do it ...... just that if you have trained you own horse that twirling ropes can be ignored you can keep your own horse with you and move others out of the way. In fact she did advise the poster to be cautious and not do it and that further advice specific to her situation was needed by someone that could be on scene !!!


oh  btw  I am not a parelli fan  I just "get" it  about using energy to see off bothersome  / pushy horses crowding round and possibly threatening human and one horse trying to get in / out and hopefully avoiding injuries.

I dont think inducing terror is on TP agenda ..... of course you will have to check that with TP


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## rhino (30 September 2011)

Ah, but I think _anyone_ doing that in a field is an idiot!  And, no, after using voice and body language to back a horse off I would be more likely to give it a skelp than whirl a rope around, in my mind rope whirling = please keep away, having a smack = don't you bl**dy come and threaten me! If it has got to that stage then the horse has already ignored me asking nicely.

ETA that sounds harsh I know, I can't actually think of a time I have ever hit a horse in the field but if it was a case of putting myself or my horse in risk I wouldn't think twice.


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## tazzle (1 October 2011)

rhino said:



			Ah, but I think _anyone_ doing that in a field is an idiot!  And, no, after using voice and body language to back a horse off I would be more likely to give it a skelp than whirl a rope around, in my mind rope whirling = please keep away, having a smack = don't you bl**dy come and threaten me! If it has got to that stage then the horse has already ignored me asking nicely.
		
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maybe the rope whirling is the intermediate step to a skelp  . (oooooh I have not heard that word for years) ..... or maybe there is more than one horse involved so its a general "get off" rather than to one particular horse.  ..... or maybe they are not near enough to skelp and she wants them to stay that far away cos they are known to be "difficult" and are on their way  

I must admit I would rather head off trouble at the pass than wait till multiple threatening horses are near enough to do me damage ( and if they are near enough to skelp then they are  ) ..... oh boy all this dicussion is making me sooooooooo glad  that in my "later" years  I no longer have to deal with issues like this and be thankful for  our settled little herd where the only danger is getting "lipped"


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## rhino (1 October 2011)

Luckily it's been a few years since I had to deal with anything particularly difficult in this respect either, and last one was purely due to a useless owner (who also ran the yard  ) 

Her NF was a bargy little git at the gate but woe betide you accidentally let him out. He injured a few of the kids who kept their ponies there or who were workers but the stupid owner still used to put her feedbucket in the yard and then just open the gate and let her horse through to feed it - and couldn't understand any correlation between this and his behaviour


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## baymareb (1 October 2011)

The bottom line to me on all of this is that I really don't care whether or not a horse feels he has a reason to kick, or whether he's trying to kick the person or the other horse. As far as I'm concerned, kicking when there are people around is simply unacceptable. 

Case in point - my daughter and I were riding together a couple of weeks ago. We were going past a shelter where 2 of the farm workers were working on the roof. The horses were both a little spooked by it and my mare was dancing a bit. My daughter's horse went behind her in order to be further away from the scary stuff, my horse felt him back there and added a sort of bucking kick to her repertoire of twirling and snorting. It caught my daughter on her leg and she ended up with 8 stitches and a lot of bruising - had it hit just a bit more directly on her shin, it probably would have broken her leg.

My mare kicked because Sparky had startled her. I know that. Nevertheless, I immediately barked at her. Because I don't care if she was startled - she has no business kicking out when people are in close proximity. To me, it's just as simple as that. It may be a case of putting human values on horses but she's living in a human world and is quite capable of learning the boundaries.

I think understanding your horses thinking and ways of communication is a very good thing but there are certain things that are just non-negotiable as far as I'm concerned. Kicking is one of them.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (1 October 2011)

Re whip in fields. I don't carry one now as I have 5 and 3 are homebreds. But along the years, especially when growing up, there were manners to be had such at times of feeding in a group situation. Used to have a lot more horses and in a group of youngsters I'm not getting run over at feed time. So I had a dressage whip. Unruly youngsters got a light smack on the chest. After that nobody seemed inclined to be an idiot. They waited by pots patiently. There is always going to be an order amongst themselves so I know roughly how they order is going to be. Last year my then 4 and 6 year old took leave of their senses and were bucking, kicking, and rearing as I was trying to come in to feed. Climbed back out, went and got the dressage whip and they only just saw that I had it. They each went to their pots and waited patiently. 

So I'm guessing that is also the reason I don't have issues going into fields and getting who I need when I need them. There is no flailing of the whip, there indeed is no whip anymore. But horses aren't stupid. They know what's expected of them if you establish this in the first place. But if I were in a boarding situation and had to get one of mine out with a mannerless git


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## Equilibrium Ireland (1 October 2011)

Sorry, pushed send. If I had to get one out with a mannerless git in the field, then I would bring my dressage whip as only if needed protection for me or my horse. But chances are I'm going to be in a situation like that. Pookie's owner would have some indication her horse was at fault but will never see it that way and I can't have me or my horses in that situation. There is one here and I just don't have time in my life to deal with people and their "special needs" horses. That meaning horse has zero manners because the owner won't hurt Pookie's feelings. Luckily I rent the land my horses are on.

Terri


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## HeatherAnn (1 October 2011)

In response to the people saying that they would go mad if someone shooed their horse away with a whip. Surely you wouldn't want anyone getting hurt bu your horse, and if someone needs to twirl a rope or something like that, because your horse was being bolshy, wouldn't that be preferable to someone getting kicked or trampled. I understand the part about not wanting a horse to fear the whip, that's common sense, but to say that you would be annoyed if someone shooed your horse away for their own safety is a bit daft IMO

If I thought someone's horse was going to do this to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmVvSJmlW0Q&feature=related then I'd take a rope out and shoo every other horse away.


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## rhino (1 October 2011)

HeatherAnn said:



			In response to the people saying that they would go mad if someone shooed their horse away with a whip.... to say that you would be annoyed if someone shooed your horse away for their own safety is a bit daft IMO
		
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But if you actually read the thread I don't think anyone has said that...  In fact I stated:



rhino said:



			I can understand taking an extra leadrope or short whip in a field _for your own safety_

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However, what I do think is a bad idea is TP's suggestion:



Tinypony said:



			to stand next to their horse while holding their orange stick aloft over both of their heads and whirl the 6 ft string on the end around in noisy circles.  Their horse will stand happily under this while the rest of the herd leap about in horror.  Effective though it may be, for some reason it pisses other owners off no end.   
	
	
		
		
	


	




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Which marydoll and I both seemed to think would be more likely to get either the handler or one of the horses seriously hurt


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## tazzle (1 October 2011)

I think we ought to ask TP to clarify but the wee smilie and the fact that I know her leads me to believe she was not entirely serious that it is her intention to fill horses with terror or annoy the humans ( well not unless they were about to trample all over her   ... horses or humans   )


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## rhino (1 October 2011)

I have seen enough of TP's posts to know that she gives out great advice; IMO whether it was said in jest (as I suspect it was) or not, putting it on a thread posted by a worried (and injured) poster was not the best idea in the world


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## HeatherAnn (1 October 2011)

rhino said:



			but if anyone tried the above stunt in a field with my horse I would be very, very angry. It has taken a long time and a lot of input from my lovely classical dressage YO to make my horse comfortable around whips 

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I misread what you said sorry. I thought that this was all that was said


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## Tinypony (1 October 2011)

In reply to original op I said this:

"Even an "aggressive" horse will give some warning of what's coming. The problem is that we can miss it, and also the warning can be quite brief.
The severity of the resulting damage to the human tends to be applied to the horse's personality. So if the horse just shoves it's "cheeky", if it nips it's "naughty" and if it makes contact with hooves it's "aggressive". Whatever, this horse felt a need for either op or her horse to move and they didn't. It is hard sometimes when one horse in a field is getting attention (and maybe a treat or two) and the other horse isn't.
As others have said, I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that this is a nasty horse, I'd change the way I managed the situation so that I avoided the situation again. 4 year old child in an enclosure by the gate, never in the field with you and more than one horse. Catch up your horse and take it to the enclosure for fuss and the sort of slow stuff that you do with a 4 year old at your elbow. Also, take something like a spare leadrope into the field with you and use that to spin at the other horse to ask him to stay away (with the clip in your hand) - right from the moment you go into the field. Get into the habit of asking this horse to keep it's distance when you're dealing with your own horses. I see so many people catching or otherwise dealing with their horses while others crowd in around them. There's no need to do that and it's likely to cause problems."

Then when someone suggested that they would maybe apply that advice to a situation where they were needing to lead their pony through fields with other horses in I said this:

"(I just wanted to pick up on this reply to my post).
Oldnag, that could be quite a tricky situation you're dealing with. If you're dealing with larger numbers of horses, that aren't normally living in the same field as your pony, just be careful. It's one thing to send one pushy field companion away, another to sort out a group of them milling around you. I'm pretty confident of my advice in Op's case, where there are two horses involved that are used to each other. In your situation I'd be more cautious and probably want to see what's happening before trying to help you.
Anyway, stay safe.  "

Then - with a little wink and a grin at the end and in a separate post I said this:

"p.s. I can't help sharing a thought that just came into my mind. "Parelli People" tend not to have problems with getting mobbed when dealing with their horses in the field. As a result of intensive "Friendly Game" sessions they are often able to stand next to their horse while holding their orange stick aloft over both of their heads and whirl the 6 ft string on the end around in noisy circles. Their horse will stand happily under this while the rest of the herd leap about in horror. Effective though it may be, for some reason it pisses other owners off no end. "  There was a clear one of these at the end  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  - which is a wink and a grin last time I looked.

The last post above doesn't suggest in any way that anyone should do this, and yes, it was tongue in cheek because I know what reaction the mention of the word Parelli has on this forum.  

Having said that though... In similar threads I have seen people recommending that people go into fields armed with lunge whips to fend off groups of horses, which would be a pretty similar and also fairly dodgy approach.


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## Marydoll (1 October 2011)

HeatherAnn said:



			In response to the people saying that they would go mad if someone shooed their horse away with a whip. Surely you wouldn't want anyone getting hurt bu your horse, and if someone needs to twirl a rope or something like that, because your horse was being bolshy, wouldn't that be preferable to someone getting kicked or trampled. I understand the part about not wanting a horse to fear the whip, that's common sense, but to say that you would be annoyed if someone shooed your horse away for their own safety is a bit daft IMO

If I thought someone's horse was going to do this to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmVvSJmlW0Q&feature=related then I'd take a rope out and shoo every other horse away.
		
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Twirling a rope is different to a whip, and yes i would be bloody annoyed if some idiot was waving a whip around my horse or anyone elses, and you may think people with opinions like mine are " daft" but id have to say i have the same opinion about afew things youve posted on here


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## HeatherAnn (1 October 2011)

marydoll said:



			Twirling a rope is different to a whip, and yes i would be bloody annoyed if some idiot was waving a whip around my horse or anyone elses, and you may think people with opinions like mine are " daft" but id have to say i have the same opinion about afew things youve posted on here
		
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I actually said:


HeatherAnn said:



			I understand the part about not wanting a horse to fear the whip, that's common sense, but to say that you would be annoyed if someone shooed your horse away for their own safety is a bit daft IMO
		
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I completely understand that you wouldn't want someone to use a whip. I actually misinterpreted someone else's comment and thought they wouldn't want anyone shooing their horse full stop


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## OldNag (2 October 2011)

Tinypony said:



			(I just wanted to pick up on this reply to my post).
Oldnag, that could be quite a tricky situation you're dealing with.  If you're dealing with larger numbers of horses, that aren't normally living in the same field as your pony, just be careful.  It's one thing to send one pushy field companion away, another to sort out a group of them milling around you.  I'm pretty confident of my advice in Op's case, where there are two horses involved that are used to each other.  In your situation I'd be more cautious and probably want to see what's happening before trying to help you.
Anyway, stay safe.  

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Thank you.  In her field she's one of three and I don't get any problems there. It's mostly a new pone in the field we walk thorugh, he has taken to following very closely, too closely for my mare's liking! (He's not aggressive, I think just nosy)  The other day she made her thoughts quite clear so they both squealed, then the neighbouring field horses wanted to see what the excitement was and there was some general cantering about and squealing... it all got quite scary to be honest. 

Where possible I'm trying to get someone to go with me, but it's not always going to be practical.  If I can persuade this new pony that sticking his nose on my mare's bum isn't a great thing to do, I'm sure that will help!  The others in that field have up to now ignored us.


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## Tinypony (2 October 2011)

That makes sense Oldnag.  Well, the key in my opinion is to not let the other horse get too close in the first place if you can.  Once they come in close you can get hurt as you try to send them away.  If you can keep them a safe distance away in the first place it's easier.  Good luck with it, it's no fun being scared in this way.


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## Marydoll (2 October 2011)

rhino said:



			Ah, but I think _anyone_ doing that in a field is an idiot!  And, no, after using voice and body language to back a horse off I would be more likely to give it a skelp than whirl a rope around, in my mind rope whirling = please keep away, having a smack = don't you bl**dy come and threaten me! If it has got to that stage then the horse has already ignored me asking nicely.

ETA that sounds harsh I know, I can't actually think of a time I have ever hit a horse in the field but if it was a case of putting myself or my horse in risk I wouldn't think twice.
		
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I need a big fat like button for this


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## eirewhisper (2 October 2011)

M_G said:



			With my horses I am the herd leader
		
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^^^
This


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## fburton (2 October 2011)

Eirewhisper - Do you think horses see you as another horse?


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## eirewhisper (2 October 2011)

fburton said:



			Eirewhisper - Do you think horses see you as another horse?
		
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I dont know what they "see" us as-I just think they're intelligent enough to learn (as they would with the herd-leader/higher pecking order) what is and what is not, considered acceptable i.e. a mare disciplines her foal and he learns not to do whatever it was she did not like.

(I had gone back to add more explanation to my first post but it wouldnt let me hence the rather cryptic message)


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## amandap (2 October 2011)

I have been led to believe it is no longer considered ethical to chase or send off a horse in any circumstances except emergency.   Waving sticks or ropes must also be a no no after all the outrage about Parelli I've read. 

I walk amongst my herd of six numerous times a day even in confined spaces, I know them, they know me and we have 'rules' and ettiquette we all adhere to. Going amongst herds that aren't stable or where you don't have a rapport with all the horses is always going to be a risk especially if you have no idea of the horses relationships amongst themselves... You MUST be aware of all horses at all times, think ahead and don't put yourself in a compromised position. If one horse is always causing a problem that could easily lead to danger then imo two humans should always go in, one to observe and one to retrieve the required horse. 

That's my Sunday sermon.


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## fburton (2 October 2011)

eirewhisper said:



			I dont know what they "see" us as-I just think they're intelligent enough to learn (as they would with the herd-leader/higher pecking order) what is and what is not, considered acceptable i.e. a mare disciplines her foal and he learns not to do whatever it was she did not like.
		
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I agree they are able to learn from us what is and is not acceptable to us, as you say - just as they can learn that from other horses. What I am questioning, though, is whether herd dynamics has to come into their dealings with us at all. Surely they can learn by associating behaviours with consequences, e.g. reward or punishment? For that, it doesn't matter whether they consider us as another horse, some other creature, or even as an object that happens to move (they don't have to see an electric fence as another horse in order to learn to avoid touching it and to "respect" it). Do horses think electric fences are dominant, or simply as something they shouldn't walk into? Actually, I believe horses _are_ intelligent enough to tell the difference and recognize we're in the "some other creature" category rather than another horse or an object!

Therefore, I don't see any merit in trying to convince a horse of our credentials as a true "herd leader" (whatever that is) - or even to think along those lines.

On the other hand, there are certain leadership qualities that are valuable and desirable to possess in order to gain horses' cooperation and to work effectively with them. It might be a useful exercise to list them. But having those qualities - they are what make a good horseman, in fact - is not the same as horses actually thinking we _are_ the herd leader. I think they're far more discerning than to do that!


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## Tinypony (2 October 2011)

"Originally Posted by rhino  
Ah, but I think anyone doing that in a field is an idiot!  And, no, after using voice and body language to back a horse off I would be more likely to give it a skelp than whirl a rope around, in my mind rope whirling = please keep away, having a smack = don't you bl**dy come and threaten me! If it has got to that stage then the horse has already ignored me asking nicely.

ETA that sounds harsh I know, I can't actually think of a time I have ever hit a horse in the field but if it was a case of putting myself or my horse in risk I wouldn't think twice. 

I need a big fat like button for this"

No, rope whirling means keep away.  Come too close and the end of the rope will "skelp" you.  Rather than go after a horse with either a stick or my hand to smack them (hand meaning they've got far too close in my opion), I would just keep spinning the rope and if the horse walks into it they might get skelped.   It's not a big deal really, catch up a horse and if another is heading in at 3 o'clock with a determined grimace on it's ears I'll spin the free end of my leadrope in their direction to discourage them.  Which it normally does.  What a lot of fuss over the fact that people do things differently, one spins a rope, another has a shout and maybe smacks a horse...  so what?  

The thread started with op getting double-barrelled by a horse.  In which case i would not recommend that op considers smacking said horse if it comes in to close again.  I would recommend that op does something that discourages the horse from getting too close in the first place.

I will state AGAIN that I did not recommend that anyone follows the "parelli model" I mentioned in my light hearted post with a grin at the end.  Sigh.


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## amandap (2 October 2011)

A rope or a stick is an extension to keep a horse at a safe distance where necessary. If a threatening horse is close enough for you to 'skelp' it you've put yourself in a very vulnerable position imo. Horses have a much bigger reach than us so you must think ahead if you suspect 'trouble'. Keeping a threatening horse at a safe distance is essential to ensure your safety.

Imo these situations and horses behaving in this way regularly need the whole yard sorting out a cohesive plan to make the situation safe and better for the horse. It's no good owners getting defensive or others blaming a horse it's a yard problem imo and everyone should work together to solve it.

Just putting in general comments here not specific ones.


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