# Scales of training and the less than perfect horse



## soloequestrian (15 April 2017)

I had an interesting conversation the other day and would like other views.
I've always had less than perfect horses in terms of conformation or behaviour.  I like dressage, but have struggled with the order of the introduction of movements at different levels: specifically with the lengthened movements which are introduced well before lateral movements, which I've always done a lot of.  Discussion on this with a friend was along the lines of perhaps for horses that are conformationally and behaviourally well suited to dressage (i.e. uphill and unspoiled), lengthening is actually relatively easy compared to performing lateral movements well.  Perhaps the dressage levels are written with those types of horses in mind and they are never going to suit the animals that are conformationally less desirable?  The levels do follow the scales of training, but I feel as though if I had followed the pattern of introduction of lateral work with any of my horses, I would just never have got there - I've often used it to help get the weight back a bit which then should help with lengthening.
Any thoughts?


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## tallyho! (15 April 2017)

Depends what you mean by lengthening... depends what scales of training - there seems to be so many versions. 

And even so, some horses have a natural aptitude to some things than others. So the scales have never made that much sense to me - e.g. if you have a "bendy" horse you need to work on straightness. A "giraffe" needs to work on contact and lengthening the frame and rhythm. Horses for courses. 

In the military such scales and rigid frameworks were probably necessary to train many horses in a short space of time. We're not training for war anymore so why keep on using this system? The "art" of horsemanship doesn't seem to follow the pyramid scales... when training horses for kings and noblemen, horses were ultra-refined following certain "masters" whom all had differing views e.g. Baucher/gueriniere/podhajsky etc... 

I prefer this one...






It's flexible enough to suit any type of horse and it's not exclusive of each type of movement and you can go back and refine as many times as needed.


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## be positive (15 April 2017)

As above the scales of training are a guide, a point of reference rather than anything set in stone, training is about making the best job out of what you have, that includes accounting for the rider, if a horse can do lateral work correctly it will need to be rhythmic, relaxed, have some connection and understanding of what you are asking, have enough impulsion or at least enough to allow the lateral work to help generate more and be straight enough to be asked to move laterally although again lateral work can assist with straightness.

You do not have to take each "stage" as an entity, they are the foundations on which every horse should be worked so they become stronger, more able to cope with whatever work you want them to do, it helps a SJ to work in a basically correct way even if they never set foot in a dressage arena.

Dressage tests are now based on the scales and for most "normal" horses a few strides of "showing some lengthening" should be more than possible very early on in their training although they may learn some lateral movements first most will not be truly engaged enough to perform them well in competition before they can show lengthening, I have had many different types to educate and have rarely found an issue getting enough lengthening from them to get a reasonable mark in a test but it would take far longer to get a decent shoulder in established to get halfway down a long side in a test environment.

Competing in dressage at the lower levels is as much about presenting a good test, having a relaxed obedient horse and showing it to it's best, develop their strengths and keep working on their weaknesses as no horse is perfect, it is a case of bringing out the best in them and using the competitions as a guide with the aim to come out pleased whatever the result.


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## ycbm (15 April 2017)

I agree, SE. I have a cob who is doing smashing shoulder in and half pass in canter, lovely shoulder in on trot, and credible half pass, yet he struggles to string two lengthened strides together before he falls into his forehand and runs.  He's not the first horse I've had who got lateral work cracked long before he learnt to lengthen. 

I really like Tallyho's model. I think that maybe comes from Philippe Karl, I recognise the 'legerete'?


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## tallyho! (15 April 2017)

Yes it is ycbm and I explored it and other classical about 15 years ago.... left it and went back to "conventional" - getting stuck in the same places - and I've come full circle as I think its the only one that makes any sense, to the horse.


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## LadyGascoyne (15 April 2017)

I find a lot of horses nowadays have the lateral work and 'bendy bits' well in hand but can't produce a decent walk. 

I'm riding two like that at the moment. Both have been professionally started too, but sent away for a few months to be professionally started, not brought up by a professional.

I wonder whether it's an issue of patience when they are started? Starting a horse for dressage takes an awfully long time and perhaps the amateur competition market demands ready-made things far too soon. 

Obviously conformation and type will affect aptitude, but moving on to the showy things before the basics are established seems to be very common.

ETA, not suggesting that people with horses that do this aren't schooling properly, more that we get them with this sort of history and have to work against it, so in reality we have to work through the training scales backwards.


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## rachk89 (15 April 2017)

I like that model. The annoying thing for me is my horse CAN do all of those things, but he either gets lazy and can't be bothered or he gets distracted and forgets what he is doing. I need a new brain for my horse.


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## tallyho! (16 April 2017)

rachk89 said:



			I like that model. The annoying thing for me is my horse CAN do all of those things, but he either gets lazy and can't be bothered or he gets distracted and forgets what he is doing. I need a new brain for my horse.
		
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hehe  yes I feel your pain. All horses can do dressage but it's how you put it together for them.

My last horse was very talented and picked everything up easily and because he was naturally forward and "up" in himself he found laterals easy. I was spoiled.

My mare is not at all forward neither in the brain nor the body! Plus she is as bendy as hell and can twist her neck like a corkscrew.... be patient though - it's taken us 2 years to even get any decent walk/trot out of her but hopefully the foundation is now there so..... another 2 years and we may even get to a walk & trot test


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## rachk89 (16 April 2017)

tallyho! said:



			hehe  yes I feel your pain. All horses can do dressage but it's how you put it together for them.

My last horse was very talented and picked everything up easily and because he was naturally forward and "up" in himself he found laterals easy. I was spoiled.

My mare is not at all forward neither in the brain nor the body! Plus she is as bendy as hell and can twist her neck like a corkscrew.... be patient though - it's taken us 2 years to even get any decent walk/trot out of her but hopefully the foundation is now there so..... another 2 years and we may even get to a walk & trot test 

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Lol mine sounds like a combination of your last horse and current one. He will get there, hopefully, he just prefers jumping and works far better doing that. Annoying, I bought a horse for dressage and it wants to jump.


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## ycbm (16 April 2017)

LadyGascoyne said:



			I find a lot of horses nowadays have the lateral work and 'bendy bits' well in hand but can't produce a decent walk. 

I'm riding two like that at the moment. Both have been professionally started too, but sent away for a few months to be professionally started, not brought up by a professional.

I wonder whether it's an issue of patience when they are started? Starting a horse for dressage takes an awfully long time and perhaps the amateur competition market demands ready-made things far too soon. 

Obviously conformation and type will affect aptitude, but moving on to the showy things before the basics are established seems to be very common.

ETA, not suggesting that people with horses that do this aren't schooling properly, more that we get them with this sort of history and have to work against it, so in reality we have to work through the training scales backwards.
		
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I don't think this is a problem with introducing the bendy bits too soon, more a problem of not working on the straight bits enough. 

I agree with you on horses being produced for sale learning 'tricks', and falling  apart when a buyer gets the horse home or out to a competition.


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## soloequestrian (16 April 2017)

All interesting.  I've always had horses that have come to me with ridden issues of one sort or another - not necessarily problem horses but definitely started or ridden in a less than ideal way. It would be interesting to know who writes the lower level dressage tests - there are some moves in there that don't seem very fair e.g. the one where you have to canter across the short diagonal, give and retake the reins on the centre line and then counter canter for the rest of the long side (60m arena, can't remember which test).  I just avoid that one now - it's too horrible!


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## crabbymare (16 April 2017)

horses all learn differently and sometimes a basic you think has been learned properly will disappear and they will go through all sorts of can do. cant do. dont understand. oh its easy stages as they learn and its up to us to fine the best way for each individual horse to learn what we want them to do. one thing that made me laugh recently was this blog entry http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/how-make-grand-prix-horse and if anyone is interested another from the same writer about a test she was riding  http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/johnny-goes-to-the-show-2


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## paddi22 (16 April 2017)

i find with the greener ones that i do end up doing the lengthening moves before the lateral ones. I just prefer getting the weight back first before doing anything else.  It's much easier to build up strength behind doing bits of lengthening moves when hacking up hills etc.  I just find that way the horse finds the lateral moves easier when introduced, as they have the power behind and are off the forehand more. 

I agree with ycbm, the model of bringing young horses on nowadays does more damage than good. And a lot of the time it ruins the natural 'forward' straightness that most have. You get on them and everything just feels backwards, sideways and over fiddled with, instead of flowing forward happily.


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## Goldenstar (16 April 2017)

I see use the scales as a guide to how things happen you show  the horse how to develop rhythm and that helps the horse develop suppleness and begin to understand how to give itself up to be worked and be relaxed in it's work because of that the horse starts to develop contact and connection and so on .
How you get there depends on the horse and the system you are trained in.


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## DabDab (16 April 2017)

Hmmm, I know what you mean, but I don't think you're talking about scales of training - more the types of movement that are included or excluded from each level of BD test. I do agree, I think lengthening and basic lateral should be introduced at the same level, because successful trainers often use one to develop the other, but which one depends on the horse and rider strengths/build/preferences.

Similarly, elementary tests often don't seem to come together for high marks until you're scoring well at medium. But it is very difficult to write low level dressage tests, and the line has to be drawn somewhere so...


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## milliepops (16 April 2017)

I actually don't know anyone who would apply the scales of training in the order they are usually written, perfectly conformed/bred horse or not. For me, you can't have rhythm without some degree of impulsion, you can't have suppleness without an eye on the straightness, you can't have any of those without contact, etc etc etc.

Each horse is different and the rider's job is to think about which elements to tackle first, in which order, in which combination... and how.  No horse has read the rule book.

This morning I have ridden 2 very different green horses which needed to sort out a contact/straightness issue before they could go forward or be supple, and therefore before they could maintain a rhythm.  On both, a good time was spent riding outside leg to inside hand... another rule broken, lol.

I think it's a nonsense to think that there are rigid rules, when horses don't come out of the factory made to a certain spec 

As for the order of stuff taught, I start lateral work very very early, just simple yielding and shoulder-fore or counter shoulder-fore as an aid to develop straightness.  It doesn't have to be a test standard movement to deliver benefits in the general way of going. For many horses, learning to canter shoulder-fore is what rescues a running pace or a loss of balance onto the forehand.  I think it's helpful to teach the horse that in order to save its balance it needs to become more upright into the outside hand and step  underneath itself, then it's easy to teach them to lengthen without falling onto their heads 

I do think the newer tests are going the right way FWIW with a greater emphasis on basic training, good transitions and testing elements where there is nowhere to hide - the canter to G+ R to counter canter is a good test of the horse's balance, self carriage and connection to the rider's seat... it's short sighted to think that you can progress to more advanced work until that kind of thing is easy   yet IMO it's a fair test at novice level


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## AdorableAlice (16 April 2017)

Far too many people are rushing the early education is my thought.  We were at a busy unaff show on Friday, lots of nice ordinary horses competing prelim and novice tests.  So many of them were badly ridden, rushed along out of balance and on their heads.  When I trained with a now retired trainer, years ago you were not allowed out of walk until the walk was correct, leg yield in both directions and change of pace within the pace was established.  I can vividly remember her saying that until I could ride each corner of the horse and feel what was happening I would be going no further.

I also think that lateral work is useful very early on,  after all what you are actually doing is asking the horse to let you move the shoulders and allow himself to be in front of the leg, straight and balanced.  In my view if you can't achieve that I don't think the horse should be hacking on the roads as you are not in control of him and cannot get him to move away from your leg out of potential danger.

On the subject of tests, there is an intro test that has a change the rein through 2 10m half circles in trot through X.  That movement is impossible for most young horses and I don't think it is seen again until novice level.


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## tristar (16 April 2017)

with the newly broken horse going forward is the key, not rushing, not running or speeding, going forward to the leg in an open space or on a soft grass surface in a natural form, then put the leg on positively and at the same time lengthen the reins as the horse surges forward into lengthened strides, they need to lengthen the whole body and neck, when the horse can do this you can move on to other things.

 the principle is that the horse has know how to lengthen before it starts work with  any degree of collection or shortening of the frame, lengthening comes first in my experience.

a lot of horses slow down when starting lateral work.

that 2 half circles things is daft.


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## tallyho! (16 April 2017)

tristar said:



			with the newly broken horse going forward is the key, not rushing, not running or speeding, going forward to the leg in an open space or on a soft grass surface in a natural form, then put the leg on positively and at the same time lengthen the reins as the horse surges forward into lengthened strides, they need to lengthen the whole body and neck, when the horse can do this you can move on to other things.

 the principle is that the horse has know how to lengthen before it starts work with  any degree of collection or shortening of the frame, lengthening comes first in my experience.

a lot of horses slow down when starting lateral work.

that 2 half circles things is daft.
		
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Wholly agree.... and embedding the correct "bend" which I think can be interpreted in many ways but to me it's the right curvature of the whole spine not just the neck. Also the right "flex" in the poll too not stiff but yielding and taking contact - which I can't ever understand how it's possible with tight nosebands and flashes (another story I know!).


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## ycbm (16 April 2017)

tristar said:



			with the newly broken horse going forward is the key, not rushing, not running or speeding, going forward to the leg in an open space or on a soft grass surface in a natural form, then put the leg on positively and at the same time lengthen the reins as the horse surges forward into lengthened strides, they need to lengthen the whole body and neck, when the horse can do this you can move on to other things.

 the principle is that the horse has know how to lengthen before it starts work with  any degree of collection or shortening of the frame, lengthening comes first in my experience.
		
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This doesn't work with cobs (or any other horses)  which are naturally built onto the forehand. They just tip and run, unless you believe in holding them up with the reins, and often not then either.

The only way to get my cob to understand that I'm not entering him for Appleby Fair is to put him in shoulder in or leg yield before lengthening. So to lengthen, he had first to understand how to shoulder in or leg yield. 

In thought the conventional wisdom was that lengthening comes from collection, not the other way round? Confused now if we're actually all talking about the same thing!


I also agree with whoever it was who said you can't safely hack a young horse out until it responds to lateral aids.


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## AdorableAlice (16 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			This doesn't work with cobs (or any other horses)  which are naturally built onto the forehand. They just tip and run, unless you believe in holding them up with the reins, and often not then either.

The only way to get my cob to understand that I'm not entering him for Appleby Fair is to put him in shoulder in or leg yield before lengthening. So to lengthen, he had first to understand how to shoulder in or leg yield. 

In thought the conventional wisdom was that lengthening comes from collection, not the other way round? Confused now if we're actually all talking about the same thing!


I also agree with whoever it was who said you can't safely hack a young horse out until it responds to lateral aids.
		
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Twas me that said that.

and the result when it all goes wrong with a huge unbalanced carthorse.  Not pretty, this was last year and he has improved greatly, now able to sit a little more and wait.


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## Goldenstar (16 April 2017)

I strongly believe that being able to do a shoulder in led yield thingy is vital to safe hacking on the roads .
What do you do when horses spook if you can't ?this something that's always bothered me .


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## AdorableAlice (16 April 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			I strongly believe that being able to do a shoulder in led yield thingy is vital to safe hacking on the roads .
What do you do when horses spook if you can't ?this something that's always bothered me .
		
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I went buying for myself a few years ago, good money types, I tried 7 on one day and not of them had any sideways or half halt. All were advertised as schooled polite and safe horses.


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## Cortez (16 April 2017)

Lengthening comes from collection, not the other way around. No horse can properly drive from the hind leg until it has balance over said hind leg; anything else is just running on the front end. Lateral work is a great lesson in being able to ride all four corners of the horse, something I'd rather be able to do before I hurtle it on in a lengthening-y facsimile.


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## ycbm (16 April 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Twas me that said that.

and the result when it all goes wrong with a huge unbalanced carthorse.  Not pretty, this was last year and he has improved greatly, now able to sit a little more and wait.






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Exactly, only thankfully mine's a good hand smaller than
 yours!


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## Cowpony (16 April 2017)

I think sometimes judges at dressage tests don't help. Tests ask for "some" medium strides to be shown, but judges seem to expect the whole change of rein to be done in medium and mark you down if it's not sustained along the whole distance. That results in a lot of forced movement with the horse either running or on the forehand, rather than just a few strides of correct movement.


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## AdorableAlice (17 April 2017)

Cowpony said:



			I think sometimes judges at dressage tests don't help. Tests ask for "some" medium strides to be shown, but judges seem to expect the whole change of rein to be done in medium and mark you down if it's not sustained along the whole distance. That results in a lot of forced movement with the horse either running or on the forehand, rather than just a few strides of correct movement.
		
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We had an example of that very recently.  Huge mature nicely schooled horse built like a boat so everything is an effort.  Change the rein in novice test and show 'some' steps.  So rider (Ted's rider) sets the corner up, ensures he is straight before asking for some steps.  Horse responds very nicely in balance no loss of tempo and showed clear change of pace, before being asked back to working trot before quarter marker.

It scored a 5 not enough steps, the test was 20 x 40 horse is 17.2.  What do they want, motorbike it around the corner and fire it across diagonal into a heap the other side ?


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## ycbm (17 April 2017)

Cowpony said:



			I think sometimes judges at dressage tests don't help. Tests ask for "some" medium strides to be shown, but judges seem to expect the whole change of rein to be done in medium and mark you down if it's not sustained along the whole distance. That results in a lot of forced movement with the horse either running or on the forehand, rather than just a few strides of correct movement.
		
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This is an old bugbear of mine, as well. It should be possible to  do a nice transition into four good medium strides and out again and get the same mark as a horse doing the whole distance, because the test does not call for the whole distance in medium.


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## milliepops (17 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			This is an old bugbear of mine, as well. It should be possible to  do a nice transition into four good medium strides and out again and get the same mark as a horse doing the whole distance, because the test does not call for the whole distance in medium.
		
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not sure I agree with getting the same mark, a fair mark - yes, but the same mark as a horse that has sufficient balance to show more steps? 4 steps is really not a lot, it's not the test's fault that a big horse needs more time to get ready than one which is very established.  As with everything in dressage, the horse that is able to show more of the same, or a better version will score more highly.

I come up against it (quite rightly) at every show - I'm riding a 14.2 welsh D, who can't possibly show the cadence that is not prescribed in the test but produced by many WBs... if we both do the same kind of test but they do it with better paces then they will score probably half a mark or more extra on each movement.


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## Cortez (17 April 2017)

As always, dressage is about "how" you do it rather than "if" you do it. And cadence is one of the things that you are marked on.


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## ycbm (17 April 2017)

milliepops said:



			not sure I agree with getting the same mark, a fair mark - yes, but the same mark as a horse that has sufficient balance to show more steps? 4 steps is really not a lot, it's not the test's fault that a big horse needs more time to get ready than one which is very established.  As with everything in dressage, the horse that is able to show more of the same, or a better version will score more highly.
		
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But the test only asks for 'a few'. It does not say 'a minimum of a few'. Surely it should therefore be possible to score a perfect ten for doing a perfect few?

This is one of the reasons people continue to pot hunt at lower levels, because they can beat horses that are actually producing exactly the right work for a prelim or novice if they are working above that level.


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## tristar (17 April 2017)

lengthened strides are asked for at low level comp dressage, before actual collection is required.

giving a young horse the opportunity to show lengthened strides early on is for me doing what the horse can do naturally, and in a natural frame.

i see no harm whatsoever in lengthened strides if the frame matches the stride, only good.

i play with all sorts with young horses in a fun way they love it, better than the stifled side reins and forced too early training of what was was it? 2 year olds. 

and it would be better to have lengthened strides in novice tests down the long side, not on the diagonal, this is where i teach medium trot.


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## milliepops (17 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			But the test only asks for 'a few'. It does not say 'a minimum of a few'. Surely it should therefore be possible to score a perfect ten for doing a perfect few?

This is one of the reasons people continue to pot hunt at lower levels, because they can beat horses that are actually producing exactly the right work for a prelim or novice if they are working above that level.
		
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It's a tricky one isn't it. I think the standard has improved hugely in the last decade or 15 years. I did my first affiliated novice in 2005 I think, I won both classes on 66% and under the very old rules that qualified us for regionals. 66% wouldn't cut it these days,  wouldn't even be a qualifying score and it's not that judges are more generous,  everyone who wants to be competitive has upped their game. 

You can either compete at the top of your range,  or prepare at home for longer and come out when you can ace it. If we're looking for winners to be those that are producing good tests with all the requirements delivered *well* then it's correct that the horses will be training higher at home.

I do think a winning prelim horse or a novice horse should be showing a well established way of going at their level,  not be winging it. How often do we see on here riders asking if the horse has to be on the bit at intro/prelim?!  Not if you just want to wing it,  but yes if you want to score highly. It's a minimum requirement. 
I'm talking affiliated because unaff is a very strange beast, almost pointless to discuss unaff judging as totally unregulated.

As for the medium trot strides,  I haven't seen a test asking for a few,  I've seen "some". The rider has to produce enough for the judge to be able to assess the medium trot not just the transitions, so 4 steps would make it rather difficult. Blink and you miss it :wink3:


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## soloequestrian (17 April 2017)

Well at least I feel like I'm not the only one confused... do those who vote for the 'lengthening first' rather than 'lateral first' tend to start with unspoilt horses?


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## DabDab (17 April 2017)

Haha, yes no real consensus but it is an interesting subject....
Fwiw mine have been mainly blank canvases (or converted racehorses, which I count as the same thing), and I really don't worry a great deal about medium trot marks at novice. I count medium trot as natural frame and flow, in self carriage like they would be when trotting enthusiastically at liberty, so a distinct difference to working trot, but not really extension as such. 
However, for the same version of this on the same horse I can get wildly different scores from different judges. Stick with the lateral - scores for those movements are much more consistent


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## Micropony (17 April 2017)

I agree with whoever said above that it depends on the horse and they are all different. I don't have as much experience as a lot of people on here of producing lots of different horses, but the two I have had have been/are completely different. 

First was a big dressage bred WB, built comparatively uphill and once we had established basic balance (which admittedly took a while) he found mediums as easy as breathing. Novice dressage level rather than anything fancier as we couldn't produce crisp accurate transitions right at the marker, the lengthening and thd transition back to a working pace was slightly gradual. Collection however was something I could only dream of. 

Current horse is smaller and SJ bred, not as naturally uphill. Medium trot in particular not so great at this stage, certainly wouldn't want to be doing it in public for marks! But laterals much easier for him. It took him about half a long side to learn shoulder in, which he did without losing his frame or quality of pace, for example. With him, decent medium paces are gradually coming from learning to take weight back and lift through his wither, but it's slow going compared to his progress with other areas of his work.


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## tallyho! (18 April 2017)

soloequestrian said:



			Well at least I feel like I'm not the only one confused... do those who vote for the 'lengthening first' rather than 'lateral first' tend to start with unspoilt horses?
		
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There is no "first" as far as I can see anyways...


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## Casey76 (18 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			I agree, SE. I have a cob who is doing smashing shoulder in and half pass in canter, lovely shoulder in on trot, and credible half pass, yet he struggles to string two lengthened strides together before he falls into his forehand and runs.  He's not the first horse I've had who got lateral work cracked long before he learnt to lengthen. 

I really like Tallyho's model. I think that maybe comes from Philippe Karl, I recognise the 'legerete'?
		
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My mare is similar; we've been working on all lateral work for over a year now, but only recently started to ask for lengthened strides.  Only recently has she had the strength to develop the stride length without "running on."  Conversely, she finds collection much easier.


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## milliepops (18 April 2017)

Casey76 said:



			My mare is similar; we've been working on all lateral work for over a year now, but only recently started to ask for lengthened strides.  Only recently has she had the strength to develop the stride length without "running on."  Conversely, she finds collection much easier.
		
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My sec D is the same, she's definitely had to learn to collect and *engage* in order to get correct lengthening. And we got to that by doing all the sideways stuff, and then compressing the working paces. She has a natural ability to sit, but when we first started lengthened strides she pushed herself onto the forehand with hindlegs out behind. She can do a giant stride but it's out of balance.  As she's learned to collect and step under more, she can now deliver a good uphill medium trot... mostly! I have to be on at her to keep the hindlegs under all the time though.


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## soloequestrian (18 April 2017)

milliepops said:



			My sec D is the same, she's definitely had to learn to collect and *engage* in order to get correct lengthening. And we got to that by doing all the sideways stuff, and then compressing the working paces. She has a natural ability to sit, but when we first started lengthened strides she pushed herself onto the forehand with hindlegs out behind. She can do a giant stride but it's out of balance.  As she's learned to collect and step under more, she can now deliver a good uphill medium trot... mostly! I have to be on at her to keep the hindlegs under all the time though.
		
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Mine is D x TB.  I'm really struggling to get any extension.  He can do some nice relatively-collected work now, especially in canter, but our attempts at medium just end up rushed.  The closest we get is by leg-yielding towards the centre line, half 10m circle in the 'wrong' direction compared to the leg yield, then across the diagonal to lengthen.  I'm interested to know what you mean by 'compressing the working paces'?


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## milliepops (18 April 2017)

soloequestrian said:



			I'm interested to know what you mean by 'compressing the working paces'?
		
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Good timing because for the first time in months I actually got some video that illustrates what works for mine. 
Kira likes to trot with quite a slow tempo, slightly hovering - not passage but it feels like that. if you ask for medium from that trot, you get running on the forehand. She needs to get quicker and more engaged, so she can trot with her hindlegs stepping under rather than out behind.

I think you can see in this video the difference when she is engaged in the trot as the whole frame of the horse is shorter - she takes smaller more active steps, esp watch the hindlegs which begin to spend more time under the horse rather than behind her   this is a work in progress, it's not the finished article but this is what we are doing. She has to be more "busy" with quicker shorter footfalls.  Then she has to answer the forward aid immediately.  So the compressed trot is on its way to collection, she has to wait on my seat and be in self carriage, this doesn't come from a heavy rein aid.  When she goes forward, she's more engaged and more uphill rather than just wanging along in a giant stride.  

[video=youtube;9uRE8-Ss1fM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uRE8-Ss1fM[/video]

We do the same in canter, as her medium canter has the same problem as medium trot (no surprise). There's a clip on my youtube channel of us doing small canter to bigger canter... don't have a clip of the medium trot that resulted from this work but it would have been a reasonable score in a test I think - she's competing medium now so nowhere to hide


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## nikkimariet (19 April 2017)

None of these things can exist without each other.

They are not directives, or rules. They are indicative factors of training a horse. 

And if the basic training is correct, you touch on all these things right from the very start.


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## tristar (20 April 2017)

i don`t vote for lateral or lengthening first, its the way it seems to happen.

i consider any correctly  or should i say thoroughly prepared newly broken horse, capable of moments of early collection which may show itself as balance and therefore the horse may show true lengthening at an early stage, or offer such steps.

such steps when the horse also lengthens the frame at this point of training may lay the foundation for correct medium trot, horses remember the sensation of total lengthening, and the added energy from lateral work and increased fitness makes medium trot a natural progression.

we are talking here about lengthening strides which is a novice thing, and medium trot which is more advanced trot.


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## tallyho! (20 April 2017)

That's a rather utopian view.


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## tristar (20 April 2017)

what i said is based on my personal experience, and what horses have offered me when i was willing to listen.

i don`t consider it utopian in any way, its part of normal everyday riding for me, i can`t imagine what would lead anyone to think that from what i said.


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## milliepops (20 April 2017)

soloequestrian said:



			do those who vote for the 'lengthening first' rather than 'lateral first' tend to start with unspoilt horses?
		
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^ I think this is quite important tbh and this would kind of affect what I'd make of tristar's comments.

My section D is the closest I've ever had to unspoilt, as she had been turned away for several years and had almost no schooling, but unspoilt?  Not a chance, she was well messed up!  But I have been able to take it all apart and rebuild the way I wanted to, but with her own physical limitations I've still found it important to get the sideways & towards collection before the lengthening could have any quality.

Many, many of us start with horses that have some knowledge, not all of it good or useful... that have some physical development, often not symmetrical or supple... with our own bodies that aren't necessarily always under control  (who else has a wandering left hand?!)  - Oh!  and we also spoil them ourselves while learning how to ride and train them,  so very few people will start with a total blank canvas that they can 100% shape the way they choose from the start. That's why it pays to be pragmatic and flexible IMO


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## ycbm (20 April 2017)

It depends on the horse. I've broken quite a few. Some had lengthening absolutely inbuilt, some had to be taught. One or two really struggled. I'd choose a natural lengthen over a natural collect for training a young horse, teaching lengthening is not my strong point.


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## milliepops (20 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			It depends on the horse. I've broken quite a few. Some had lengthening absolutely inbuilt, some had to be taught. One or two really struggled. I'd choose a natural lengthen over a natural collect for training a young horse, teaching lengthening is not my strong point.
		
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hehe, whereas having one horse that finds lengthening easy peasy, and one that likes to sit and collect, I'd choose a sitting collecting one given the option these days. She's quicker behind, has been super fun to teach the more advanced work to and has learnt stuff really fast because she finds it physically easier.    The easy-lengthener has slower hindlegs which are hard to get quick underneath so stuff like flying changes has been a big headache.


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## tallyho! (20 April 2017)

tristar said:



			what i said is based on my personal experience, and what horses have offered me when i was willing to listen.

i don`t consider it utopian in any way, its part of normal everyday riding for me, i can`t imagine what would lead anyone to think that from what i said.
		
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Oh sorry I wans't referring to your post - we must have cross-posted. I was referring to nikkimarriet's. I should have quoted.


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## tallyho! (20 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			It depends on the horse. I've broken quite a few. Some had lengthening absolutely inbuilt, some had to be taught. One or two really struggled. I'd choose a natural lengthen over a natural collect for training a young horse, teaching lengthening is not my strong point.
		
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Training one now with a natural tendency to collect, I'd wholeheartedly agree - it takes a long time to show them how to lengthen... then do it all again in trot... then canter... 

Which also shows us that rider/trainer preference is also a factor.


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## Cortez (20 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			It depends on the horse. I've broken quite a few. Some had lengthening absolutely inbuilt, some had to be taught. One or two really struggled. I'd choose a natural lengthen over a natural collect for training a young horse, teaching lengthening is not my strong point.
		
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...whereas I'd always go for the collecting horse over the lolloping one; horses for peoples, I suppose.


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## tristar (20 April 2017)

i find natural lengthening is directly linked to ability to collect, the horse that can lengthen easily is often the one that can find collection easy too, because it has more amplitude in its paces or gear ratios which make it possible gather itself up further down the training road, its basically more athletic.


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## Cortez (20 April 2017)

tristar said:



			i find natural lengthening is directly linked to ability to collect, the horse that can lengthen easily is often the one that can find collection easy too, because it has more amplitude in its paces or gear ratios which make it possible gather itself up further down the training road, its basically more athletic.
		
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Not so with Spanish horses, the ultimate collection machines  They very often have difficulty lengthening.


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## ycbm (20 April 2017)

Cortez said:



			...whereas I'd always go for the collecting horse over the lolloping one; horses for peoples, I suppose.
		
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Neither of the dressage bred warmbloods which I owned which had trot lengthening installed at birth  could possibly have been  described as 'lolloping'


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## ycbm (20 April 2017)

Cortez said:



			Not so with Spanish horses, the ultimate collection machines  They very often have difficulty lengthening.
		
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I agree with what I think Tristar was trying to say. Horses I've had which which naturally lengthened also tended to find more collected work easy. 

The same isn't true in the reverse direction, as the Spanish horses show.


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## Cortez (20 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			I agree with what I think Tristar was trying to say. Horses I've had which which naturally lengthened also tended to find more collected work easy. 

The same isn't true in the reverse direction, as the Spanish horses show.
		
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Hmm, not sure I'd agree with that (I bred WB's for dressage for years). In fact one of the problems with modern dressage is that the sport has emphasized the extended paces so much that the ability to really "sit" and execute correct hind leg flexion and lowering of the croup has been lost, with rather nasty training methods being employed to try and produce it. Just as there are some not-nice things being done to Spanish horses to try and get them to flash out the extensions. It is very rare to get a horse which can truly do both ends of the spectrum equally well.


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## ycbm (20 April 2017)

Cortez said:



			Hmm, not sure I'd agree with that (I bred WB's for dressage for years). In fact one of the problems with modern dressage is that the sport has emphasized the extended paces so much that the ability to really "sit" and execute correct hind leg flexion and lowering of the croup has been lost, with rather nasty training methods being employed to try and produce it. Just as there are some not-nice things being done to Spanish horses to try and get them to flash out the extensions. It is very rare to get a horse which can truly do both ends of the spectrum equally well.
		
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I see your point, I never got either of them to that stage. One was PTS, the other sold.


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## daffy44 (20 April 2017)

Interesting discussion, personally when I back horses I teach a very basic leg yield before i even think of any lengthening, depending on the horse I ask for some basic lengthening sometime in the first year, but leg yield in the first weeks.  I agree with Tristar that usually the ones that naturally lengthen also naturally shorten as they tend to be the most naturally athletic, there are of course exceptions to every rule.

I would also always choose the horse that naturally collects as my aim with my horses is Grand Prix dressage, so the collection is essential.  Sadly, I think Cortez makes a very good point, warmblood breeding has focussed far too much (imo) on the extensions as more breeders are breeding for the foal/young horse market as opposed to making future GP horses, but thats another topic!  But I dont think the ability to sit and lower the croup has been lost, its just a bit rarer, I have warmbloods that can both collect and extend, and I certainly havent used any nasty training methods to achieve this.


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## tallyho! (21 April 2017)

Leg-yield....

On my particular journey, I come across two distinct schools of thought on this: part of routine basic training or not part of basic training.

I think it needs to be done as part of basic training because it's a useful first lateral aid (and you need it to get through a gate!) and some who say not to. 

Any thoughts?


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## milliepops (21 April 2017)

Lol, on MY particular journey it's an important piece of basic training too.  Yes, for general manouverability, and also for introducing the concept of forward-sideways which is relevant to all lateral work.  It's easier than any other sideways for a novice rider to learn too, I think, and leg yield along a wall is a handy stepping stone to S-In or travers for a horse that finds the concept of moving bits of its body off the track difficult.  
Plus of course you need to be able to show it to a test standard at Elementary.

Just my opinion.

Once mine know more about other lateral work then I rarely ride leg yield unless I want to just do big sweeping sideways to get them mobilised after a period of more concentrated stuff.  Today the cob did big LYs across the whole school to refresh the sideways aid to the right in order to help the half pass. I can't remember the last time I *schooled* a LY on Millie but then she's a lot more established..


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## Goldenstar (21 April 2017)

Do I think it's possible to train horses without the LY yes .
But I do use it every day it's part of my standard warm up in each pace in the stretching forward  way I start mine off in.


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## daffy44 (21 April 2017)

Leg yield, yes I think its essential, without a very basic leg yield I dont think you can ride a good circle, and then it sets up the concept for all the lateral work that can follow it.  I use leg yield in every schooling session I do on my horses (novice, psg and gp) depending on the horse it will vary as to what pace I use it in, which way etc, but I do use it pretty much every time.


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## rara007 (22 April 2017)

From my background lengthing is much more important than lateral work- driven young horses and pre novice tests have lengthening but it's not until advanced that you get very basic lateral work. An element of lateral work is required to do a decent corner and they tend to have to learn to do it in multiple formations naturally too, but that is not judged as an individual element. As such that's the order I tend to go with, lengthening before basic sideways. Mine all show some understanding of the transition for (baby) lengthening from the voice on the lunge before even going near a rider or carriage. Pip bowed out of BD at elem as we simply couldn't get our minds around the more 'proper' (not SI/LY) lateral work whilst carrying on the driving, but his collection and extension were fully developed for a much higher level. I'm sure it's possible to get all the laterals and drive single but not with a green rider too!


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