# Anti bark collars



## Clodagh (19 September 2019)

I know this has probably been done before but any recommendations?I know some people say they are cruel, but then so it would to beat the dog with a shovel. (joke!).
My stepson's dogs live up in the yard and when he was down to one she was fine, only barking when you went to the gate which is fine. His ex GF's dog has now come back here to live and we are back on the incessant barking. It isn't the exgf's dog doing it but the terrier bitch must just feel very protective and she barks for about 30 minutes every time a sparrow farts. We have a lot of sparrows.
TBH it is JUST ANOTHER THING I don't need this week. So, has anyone used them successfully? I haven't looked into them at all yet.


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## Tiddlypom (19 September 2019)

Yes, we did, when the JRT went through a very woofy stage at all passers by when he was a young dog. It worked well. The dog gets squirted only if it woofs, and the timing (and aim!) is better than if you try and squirt them manually with a water bottle. He was quite adept at losing the collar in the hay barn, though.

Definitely worth a try IMHO .

ETA I canâ€™t remember what make we used, but it looked rather like this.

PetSafe Spray Bark Control Dog Collar, Anti-Bark for Dogs 3.6 kg +, Water Resistant, Rechargeable, 2 Spray Cartridges, 68.58 cm Neck Size https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07JC82M6B/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_E35GDbMXJWVXD


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## GSD Woman (19 September 2019)

Just remember that the citronella stink hangs around and some dogs find that very annoying, basically getting punished when they aren't barking.


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## Tiddlypom (19 September 2019)

Ours was plain water, I think. It was odourless. I agree that a citronella spray could be rather overpowering, I donâ€™t like the idea of that.


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## {97702} (19 September 2019)

I have a spray collar I can post to you Clodagh if you like? It was donated to me for Georges, it made absolutely bugger all difference to him and he still yapped happily surrounded by a cloud of citronella spray like Pigpen from the Snoopy cartoons ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

ETA - Georges will not stop barking when he is tremendously excited at feeding times and walk times.  We have sorted the feeding times by feeding him first.... Iâ€™ve threatened him with an electric shock collar about the walking thing ðŸ˜›ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Clodagh (19 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			I have a spray collar I can post to you Clodagh if you like? It was donated to me for Georges, it made absolutely bugger all difference to him and he still yapped happily surrounded by a cloud of citronella spray like Pigpen from the Snoopy cartoons ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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That is so funny! I don't know that I like the idea of citronella though, it would give me a headache, let alone a dog. Thank you. Will think!


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## Stiff Knees (19 September 2019)

I really wish my sister would try these on her two collies, they bark incessantly, interested to see the recommendations. Thinking about it, might get one for my sis to wear, she wails like a banshee! (But I love her).


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## The Fuzzy Furry (19 September 2019)

A chap I meet regularly out hacking has fitted his rescue mongel-poo with one as it goes bat shit barking at horses. Within the last 2 weeks it's a reformed dog! 
He tried the citronella,  but he hated the smell, just water does the job.


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## GSD Woman (20 September 2019)

I need to find one that squirts water.  I've never seen one here.  They all do the shock/stim or citronella, neither of which I like for barking.


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## dree (24 September 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			A chap I meet regularly out hacking has fitted his rescue mongel-poo with one as it goes bat shit barking at horses. Within the last 2 weeks it's a reformed dog!
He tried the citronella,  but he hated the smell, just water does the job.
		
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They work.  But training works better.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (24 September 2019)

dree said:



			They work.  But training works better.
		
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I appreciate that, but needs must with an adult dog that is learning boundaries that it's not ever had in its 1st 5 years


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## dree (24 September 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			I appreciate that, but needs must with an adult dog that is learning boundaries that it's not ever had in its 1st 5 years  

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So take charge....nicely.  I would rather use a clicker.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (24 September 2019)

dree said:



			So take charge....nicely.  I would rather use a clicker.
		
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Not my dog, suggest you re read my post #8 you quoted.


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## dree (24 September 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Not my dog, suggest you re read my post #8 you quoted.
		
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I did read it.  I don't use aversives on my dogs......just as I wouldn't with a horse.  I used to go out to aggressive dogs just armed with treats.  Amazing how aggressive dogs turn themselves inside out to get a treat from you.  And using a water "pistol" on a rescue dog is not very clever.  All you are teaching the dog is to stop warning you (stop barking) that it is terrified of horses.....when, in fact, you should be using desensitization.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (24 September 2019)

dree said:



			I did read it.  I don't use aversives on my dogs......just as I wouldn't with a horse.  I used to go out to aggressive dogs just armed with treats.  Amazing how aggressive dogs turn themselves inside out to get a treat from you.  And using a water "pistol" on a rescue dog is not very clever.  All you are teaching the dog is to stop warning you (stop barking) that it is terrified of horses.....when, in fact, you should be using desensitization.
		
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Its not my bloody dog! Read the damned post! ðŸ™„ðŸ¤¬

Also, nowhere have I said use a water pistol!

Flipping heck, learn to use the forum sweetie before dishing out advice......


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## Blanche (25 September 2019)

I have heard you can have a problem with these collars that confuse a dog. Bare in mind I have never seen one or used one but someone I know did. Her dogs spray collar( no idea of make) would spray her dog when another dog barked which is very confusing to the dog. I don't know how common a problem this is though I have heard ( through a third party )of other people having the same problem.  I don't know if they all work with noise or if some work by a vibration in the throat. As you can tell I've no idea but going on the person I knows experience I wouldn't use one.


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## Hormonal Filly (25 September 2019)

We actually had a vibrate collar. My other half bought it before I met him as it can be remote controlled so was more expensive, it has a bark mode too.

One of our dogs is a barker, and NOTHING will stop her. Sometimes she barks over nothing and then won't stop. We don't use the collar anymore as she is much better. The bark setting beeps loudly, then vibrates slightly and then really vibrates. It works really really well. You can get cheaper ones I believe as his was quite pricey. I don't like the citronella ones as the smell doesn't go away.

If  I knew where it was I'd happily post it out.. but since moving house, I have no idea. Will have a rummage.
I don't see how a vibrate collar or a water only spray collar is cruel..


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## dree (25 September 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Its not my bloody dog! Read the damned post! ðŸ™„ðŸ¤¬

Also, nowhere have I said use a water pistol!

Flipping heck, learn to use the forum sweetie before dishing out advice......
		
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I know it's not your dog.  Forgive me, but I thought you said you had a 5 y/0 and "needs must."


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## dree (25 September 2019)

Blanche said:



			I have heard you can have a problem with these collars that confuse a dog. Bare in mind I have never seen one or used one but someone I know did. Her dogs spray collar( no idea of make) would spray her dog when another dog barked which is very confusing to the dog. I don't know how common a problem this is though I have heard ( through a third party )of other people having the same problem.  I don't know if they all work with noise or if some work by a vibration in the throat. As you can tell I've no idea but going on the person I knows experience I wouldn't use one.
		
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If you have, say, 4 dogs in your van and one barks and has a citronella collar on, then ALL the dogs get punished for something they didn't do.  It creates a fearful reaction in all of them, so you're right not to use them.


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## dree (25 September 2019)

I don't see how a vibrate collar or a water only spray collar is cruel..[/QUOTE said:
			
		


			Because the dogs don't understand *why* they're being used.  We understand why, but they don't, barking or not barking.
		
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## dree (25 September 2019)

The easiest way to stop a dog barking is to reward the silence.  Takes time and effort, but worth it.


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## Tiddlypom (25 September 2019)

ForbiddenHorse said:



			I don't see how a vibrate collar or a water only spray collar is cruel..
		
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Theyâ€™re not .


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## Firefly9410 (25 September 2019)

(S)he said the dog was 5yr old and belongs to someone encountered whilst hacking. The post was really not difficult to understand.


dree said:



			I know it's not your dog.  Forgive me, but I thought you said you had a 5 y/0 and "needs must."
		
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## Sandstone1 (25 September 2019)

Dogs generally bark for a reason.   You would be better off finding why the Dog is barking.   Using positive punishment is not really the answer.


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## dree (25 September 2019)

Firefly9410 said:



			(S)he said the dog was 5yr old and belongs to someone encountered whilst hacking. The post was really not difficult to understand.
		
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Actually, no she didn't.......she said she met someone when out hacking who had a dog that barked.  End of conversation. 

She then said, in a separate post, that "needs must" with a 5 y/o dog, which implied the dog was hers.  Why put up two posts to say the same thing?


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## {97702} (25 September 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			Dogs generally bark for a reason.   You would be better off finding why the Dog is barking.   Using positive punishment is not really the answer.
		
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Sadly when the dog is George, the reason he barks is because he is an over-excited little gobshite who has spent the last 11 years admiring the sound of his own voice and has never been taught to shut up.  He is so excited he just has to tell everyone!

Which is very cute, but sadly the neighbours don't think so in the least.  In his case I am, of course, working on diversonary tactics which have solved a lot of the problems I was having with him but not all.  Sometimes these sort of training aids can have their place if used correctly IMO


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## The Fuzzy Furry (25 September 2019)

dree said:



			Actually, no she didn't.......she said she met someone when out hacking who had a dog that barked.  End of conversation.

She then said, in a separate post, that "needs must" with a 5 y/o dog, which implied the dog was hers.  Why put up two posts to say the same thing?
		
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FFs sake, give it a bloody rest!  She said... she said...
I have not implied the dog was mine. Stop labouring your own agenda!  ðŸ¤¬

Havent done this for ages.... *plonk*


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## dree (25 September 2019)

Firefly9410 said:



			(S)he said the dog was 5yr old and belongs to someone encountered whilst hacking. The post was really not difficult to understand.
		
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Sigh.  No, she did not.  Her first post said that she met someone who's dog barked at her horse.  I understood perfectly that this was not her dog.  She then, in a separate post, mentions a 5 y/o and "needs must" which implied it was her dog.


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## dree (25 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Sadly when the dog is George, the reason he barks is because he is an over-excited little gobshite who has spent the last 11 years admiring the sound of his own voice and has never been taught to shut up.  He is so excited he just has to tell everyone!

Which is very cute, but sadly the neighbours don't think so in the least.  In his case I am, of course, working on diversonary tactics which have solved a lot of the problems I was having with him but not all.  Sometimes these sort of training aids can have their place if used correctly IMO
		
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Have you tried a bone?  Or a filled kong?  Or something similar to that?  I take it he's in a kennel?


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## dree (25 September 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			FFs sake, give it a bloody rest!  She said... she said...
I have not implied the dog was mine. Stop labouring your own agenda!  ðŸ¤¬

Havent done this for ages.... *plonk*
		
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I understand the English language and grammar very well.  Perhaps you should have made your grammar a tad more clear.  I have no agenda.  Yours, of course, is to make anyone but yourself, wrong.  If you want your posts understood, then please make sure you use the English language correctly.  Two separate posts, the second post saying nothing about it relating to the first.  Comprendez?


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## Tiddlypom (25 September 2019)

Clip clop


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## Sandstone1 (25 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Sadly when the dog is George, the reason he barks is because he is an over-excited little gobshite who has spent the last 11 years admiring the sound of his own voice and has never been taught to shut up.  He is so excited he just has to tell everyone!

Which is very cute, but sadly the neighbours don't think so in the least.  In his case I am, of course, working on diversonary tactics which have solved a lot of the problems I was having with him but not all.  Sometimes these sort of training aids can have their place if used correctly IMO
		
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But it didn't work for your dog?


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## CorvusCorax (25 September 2019)

I've yet to meet a dog trainer who can train a dog to do/not do anything, when they are not in the same room, or indeed, the same building as it


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## {97702} (25 September 2019)

dree said:



			Have you tried a bone?  Or a filled kong?  Or something similar to that?  I take it he's in a kennel?
		
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No, he is not in a kennel - none of my dogs live in rat-infested kennels, they all live in the house.

Of course I've tried him with a filled kong, thats how I've stopped him yapping his head off every time I go out. 

I've also solved the problem of him yapping his head off every time he is fed. 

This is at the point when I put my walking boots on and am putting leads on 5 dogs prior to going out for a walk, where oddly enough I don't always have a spare hand to tuck him under my arm to stop him yapping and where he has no interest in food or other diversions because he is so excited about his walk


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## {97702} (25 September 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			But it didn't work for your dog?
		
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No..... I'm considering an electric shock collar next.....


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## Sandstone1 (25 September 2019)

Dogs sense of smell is thousands of times more sensitive than ours.   If you can't  stand the smell how do you think the Dog feels.


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## Sandstone1 (25 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			No..... I'm considering an electric shock collar next.....
		
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hilarious.


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## {97702} (25 September 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			hilarious.
		
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Sorry, did you think I was joking?


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## {97702} (25 September 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			Dogs sense of smell is thousands of times more sensitive than ours.   If you can't  stand the smell how do you think the Dog feels.
		
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Not sure if this is aimed at me or not?  I don't think I've said anywhere I can't stand the smell, so perhaps not.  I like the smell of citronella, it doesn't bother me in the least - many years of applying fly spray!


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## dree (25 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			No, he is not in a kennel - none of my dogs live in rat-infested kennels, they all live in the house.

Of course I've tried him with a filled kong, thats how I've stopped him yapping his head off every time I go out.

I've also solved the problem of him yapping his head off every time he is fed.

This is at the point when I put my walking boots on and am putting leads on 5 dogs prior to going out for a walk, where oddly enough I don't always have a spare hand to tuck him under my arm to stop him yapping and where he has no interest in food or other diversions because he is so excited about his walk
		
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Well, I have an easy programme for all 5 dogs which would mean you could walk out the door with dogs that are not barking....not one of them.  But since your remark about "rat-infested kennels" was aimed at me, since I mentioned kennels in a previous post which had rats underneath, I shall let you work it out for yourself.  It's requires training, and a little time, but would work.  But hey ho.  Life is tough.


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## CorvusCorax (25 September 2019)

This isn't a comment on collars, but judging by some comments, are we at the stage now where a dog has to be shielded from any unpleasant experience?
And when unpleasantness comes from an extraneous source, and we as owners have not taught our dogs to deal with low level stress, is that not the ultimate unfairness? We've sold them a big lie.

It's a big thing now to build resilience in our children, but apparently not in the animals we share our lives and homes with.


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## {97702} (25 September 2019)

dree said:



			Well, I have an easy programme for all 5 dogs which would mean you could walk out the door with dogs that are not barking....not one of them.  But since your remark about "rat-infested kennels" was aimed at me, since I mentioned kennels in a previous post which had rats underneath, I shall let you work it out for yourself.  It's requires training, and a little time, but would work.  But hey ho.  Life is tough.
		
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If you wish to take generalised comments personally that is your prerogative, I can't help how you choose to respond to a forum post.  As you say, life is tough....

Incidentally none of the other dogs bark or ever have done, they are greyhounds and lurchers!


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## dree (25 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			I've yet to meet a dog trainer who can train a dog to do/not do anything, when they are not in the same room, or indeed, the same building as it 

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Interesting, because people are advising trainers online.  I once taught someone in the States who had a GSD which attacked people who came to the door and wouldn't let them in.  We emailed back and forth for a while.  What make it harder was that he had Mega-e, so no treats could be used.  But we solved it.  I won't ever forget how happy she was.....her ill dog could now be treated as normal as poss.  Positive training only.


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## CorvusCorax (25 September 2019)

That wasn't my point. My point is, if the/a 
human isn't in the room with it. 
I know how online training works, thanks


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## dree (25 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			This isn't a comment on collars, but judging by some comments, are we at the stage now where a dog has to be shielded from any unpleasant experience?
And when unpleasantness comes from an extraneous source, and we as owners have not taught our dogs to deal with low level stress, is that not the ultimate unfairness? We've sold them a big lie.

It's a big thing now to build resilience in our children, but apparently not in the animals we share our lives and homes with.
		
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Interesting.  I suppose it would depend on what you consider to be low level stress.  We do obedience, and we use only positive training, but that doesn't mean that the dog won't find some stress in that training somewhere.  It's our job to make them happy and keep stress to an absolute minimum.  I would personally not like to add stress to my dogs lives.


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## dree (25 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			That wasn't my point. My point is, if the/a
human isn't in the room with it.
I know how online training works, thanks 

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Again, the grammar must be wrong.....you stated when the dog trainer is not in the same room as it.  You could perhaps make sure you can be understood next time?


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## {97702} (25 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			This isn't a comment on collars, but judging by some comments, are we at the stage now where a dog has to be shielded from any unpleasant experience?
And when unpleasantness comes from an extraneous source, and we as owners have not taught our dogs to deal with low level stress, is that not the ultimate unfairness? We've sold them a big lie.

It's a big thing now to build resilience in our children, but apparently not in the animals we share our lives and homes with.
		
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I (naturally) agree with this - I am clearly too old school for the forum as I still believe that no dog ever had a meltdown from being given a smack (tap) on the bum and being told firmly 'no!' when all these distraction techniques and positive reinforcement techniques have not quite got the required results.

Much as it is very tempting I could never use an electric shock collar on a dog.....it isn't George's fault that the stupid humans he grew up with many years ago didn't train him properly, it is just annoying to have to deal with the consequences now.  The spray collar didn't bother him one bit, hence it didn't 'work' in the accepted sense....but he is so darned cute in so many other ways I can forgive him an awful lot, and I don't really like the neighbours anyway


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## dree (25 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			If you wish to take generalised comments personally that is your prerogative, I can't help how you choose to respond to a forum post.  As you say, life is tough....

Incidentally none of the other dogs bark or ever have done, they are greyhounds and lurchers!
		
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Always quiet, the greyhounds and lurchers.


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## {97702} (25 September 2019)

Crumbs its funny now we all have no problem understanding what each other is saying, but Dree is having problems interpreting every post?


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## CorvusCorax (25 September 2019)

dree said:



			Again, the grammar must be wrong.....you stated when the dog trainer is not in the same room as it.  You could perhaps make sure you can be understood next time?
		
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My humblest apologies. So, how does one train a dog...a trainer, an owner, a random warm body, when they are not in the same room? Like I say, no one has ever been able to tell me.


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## {97702} (25 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			My humblest apologies. So, how does one train a dog...a trainer, an owner, a random warm body, when they are not in the same room? Like I say, no one has ever been able to tell me.
		
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It is impossible.


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## CorvusCorax (25 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			It is impossible. 

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DVDs? A webinar?


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## CorvusCorax (25 September 2019)

dree said:



			Interesting.  I suppose it would depend on what you consider to be low level stress.  We do obedience, and we use only positive training, but that doesn't mean that the dog won't find some stress in that training somewhere.  It's our job to make them happy and keep stress to an absolute minimum.  I would personally not like to add stress to my dogs lives.
		
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So stress is fine, as long as you/anything you do, is not the cause?


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## {97702} (25 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			DVDs? A webinar?
		
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Ah I was being too literal - for me, if you use a DVD, webinar etc you are training someone to train the dog rather than training the dog directly?  I'll get me coat....


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## CorvusCorax (25 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Ah I was being too literal - for me, if you use a DVD, webinar etc you are training someone to train the dog rather than training the dog directly?  I'll get me coat....
		
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No, silly, the dog has to watch while the owner is out. My appalling grammar strikes again.


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## dree (25 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			So stress is fine, as long as you/nothing you do, is not the cause?
		
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There is stress everywhere, but I am the last person I want to cause my dog stress.  For example, we have to teach our dogs out of sight stays, which many dogs find stressful, as they are left with about 40 other dogs.....dogs they have never met.  It's my job to teach the stays well enough to cause as little stress as poss, but by leaving my dog, that alone causes stress.  Hope I've made myself clear.  

Also, my dogs are well socialised as pups from 7/8 weeks to accept everything I can get them to meet.  But some pups find some things more stressful than others.  I own confident, happy dogs, but one of them does not like stays because the dogs next to her could be giving off aggressive vibes.  I can't do anything but hope that my dog has been taught well enough to cope with that particular stress.


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## {97702} (25 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			No, silly, the dog has to watch while the owner is out. My appalling grammar strikes again.
		
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Bloody hell I knew I was missing a trick with George - I just leave him with (numerous) stufffed Kongs and the radio on!


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## dree (25 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			My humblest apologies. So, how does one train a dog...a trainer, an owner, a random warm body, when they are not in the same room? Like I say, no one has ever been able to tell me.
		
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I trained the owner by email.


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## BBP (25 September 2019)

I quite like the idea of leaving my dog to watch webinars whilst I go up to do the horses, heâ€™s a collie, they are meant to be smart so Iâ€™m pretty sure he could learn lots of good stuff. Maybe recall via webinar? Would it be instead of me spending time training him or would there be homework I would have to help him with?


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## {97702} (25 September 2019)

BBP said:



			I quite like the idea of leaving my dog to watch webinars whilst I go up to do the horses, heâ€™s a collie, they are meant to be smart so Iâ€™m pretty sure he could learn lots of good stuff. Maybe recall via webinar? Would it be instead of me spending time training him or would there be homework I would have to help him with?
		
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I bet they would be given coursework booklets that they had to complete alongside watching the webinar.... just think how much time we could save!


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## CorvusCorax (25 September 2019)

dree said:



			I trained the owner by email.
		
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**Looks up at The Point, soaring overhead like a 747**


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## CorvusCorax (25 September 2019)

dree said:



			There is stress everywhere, but I am the last person I want to cause my dog stress.  For example, we have to teach our dogs out of sight stays, which many dogs find stressful, as they are left with about 40 other dogs.....dogs they have never met.  It's my job to teach the stays well enough to cause as little stress as poss, but by leaving my dog, that alone causes stress.  Hope I've made myself clear.

Also, my dogs are well socialised as pups from 7/8 weeks to accept everything I can get them to meet.  But some pups find some things more stressful than others.  I own confident, happy dogs, but one of them does not like stays because the dogs next to her could be giving off aggressive vibes.  I can't do anything but hope that my dog has been taught well enough to cope with that particular stress.
		
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Or, she isn't confident enough to be away from you, out of sight. Insecurity is generally why dogs break downstays.


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## YorksG (25 September 2019)

I don't understand how someone can say that the last thing they want to do is cause their dog stress and then describe a situation their dog finds stressful, which they deliberately put the dog in.


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## Clodagh (26 September 2019)

BBP said:



			I quite like the idea of leaving my dog to watch webinars whilst I go up to do the horses, heâ€™s a collie, they are meant to be smart so Iâ€™m pretty sure he could learn lots of good stuff. Maybe recall via webinar? Would it be instead of me spending time training him or would there be homework I would have to help him with?
		
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Could I try a winebar? I'm sure that could only help. Especially with this thread.


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## rabatsa (26 September 2019)

How do you get a lazy greyhound to get off the bed to turn on the DVD player?  The young GSD plays unsuitable games on hers.


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## Sandstone1 (26 September 2019)

It does take some equipment but you can use a camera and something like the trick and train device to train the Dog when you are not in the room.https://www.amazon.co.uk/SKYMEE-Cam...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=J1SK5433PZR2G3H07MR3


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## twiggy2 (26 September 2019)

dree said:



			I trained the owner by email.
		
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So you trained the owner who then in turn trained the dog.
YOU did not in fact TRAIN the dog?


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## twiggy2 (26 September 2019)

The device is a little contradictory;
It's states it will 'keep your dog calm' and 'let your cute dog chase, stay excited and energetic'.
It also has a motion detector so when the dog moves (due to separation anxiety, cos dogs don't move when there are not anxious?) it throws a that out.
Sorry to derail the thread but what a lot of tosh. 


Sandstone1 said:



			It does take some equipment but you can use a camera and something like the trick and train device to train the Dog when you are not in the room.https://www.amazon.co.uk/SKYMEE-Cam...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=J1SK5433PZR2G3H07MR3

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And to be pedantic you are remotely operating a device that is then training your dog.


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## CorvusCorax (26 September 2019)

That's a treat dispenser. Although most humans do the same job


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## Sandstone1 (26 September 2019)

There are many different types of them and I just picked out one. It may not be the best.  Yes it is at treat dispenser.
With the better ones it has a remote control.  You would be watching the Dog although outside the room.
When the Dog is doing the required behaviour you reward the Dog using the remote control.
This is reinforcing what you want.
It is positive reinforcement.
Not getting in to a argument about it.  Just pointing out that you can use positive methods rather than negative when you are not in the room.


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## Sandstone1 (26 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Sorry, did you think I was joking?
		
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I assume and hope you are joking as electric shock collars as I'm sure you are aware are illegal.


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## Sandstone1 (26 September 2019)

twiggy2 said:



			The device is a little contradictory;
It's states it will 'keep your dog calm' and 'let your cute dog chase, stay excited and energetic'.
It also has a motion detector so when the dog moves (due to separation anxiety, cos dogs don't move when there are not anxious?) it throws a that out.
Sorry to derail the thread but what a lot of tosh.

And to be pedantic you are remotely operating a device that is then training your dog.
		
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It's maybe not the best device to have shown but in principle you watch the dog when you get the required behaviour you reward it.  Instead of punishing what you don't want.
It's not tosh, it's simply using positive instead of negative reinforcement. Anti bark collars are negative.
People just need to be a bit more open minded.  Wouldn't you rather reward the good than punish the bad?


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## twiggy2 (26 September 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			It's maybe not the best device to have shown but in principle you watch the dog when you get the required behaviour you reward it.  Instead of punishing what you don't want.
It's not tosh, it's simply using positive instead of negative reinforcement. Anti bark collars are negative.
People just need to be a bit more open minded.  Wouldn't you rather reward the good than punish the bad?
		
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Anti bark collars are actually positive, positive punishment as they 'give' the dog something. But I do understand what you mean.
Personally I think if the dog settles and everytime they do they then hear the click and whir of a device that drops a treat it is counterproductive as the dog then get up excited for a treat, so dogs settles-machine excites it, if this happens over and over again the dog is likely to go to a spot, lie down but not settle as it's waiting for the treat.
I personally believe the old fashioned way of actually interacting and training animals is the best, yes, even when teaching them to be left.
Eg. Teach dog to use something to occupy itself in your presence but without your interaction and then grow on that. It's long winded to go into so I won't.
Basically they have to learn to be alone the machine is not teaching that it is trying to teach dogs that machines are just as good as the true company they crave or need, we need to teach the it's ok to be without us not try and replace us with something else.


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## Sandstone1 (26 September 2019)

twiggy2 said:



			Anti bark collars are actually positive, positive punishment as they 'give' the dog something. But I do understand what you mean.
Personally I think if the dog settles and everytime they do they then hear the click and whir of a device that drops a treat it is counterproductive as the dog then get up excited for a treat, so dogs settles-machine excites it, if this happens over and over again the dog is likely to go to a spot, lie down but not settle as it's waiting for the treat.
I personally believe the old fashioned way of actually interacting and training animals is the best, yes, even when teaching them to be left.
Eg. Teach dog to use something to occupy itself in your presence but without your interaction and then grow on that. It's long winded to go into so I won't.
Basically they have to learn to be alone the machine is not teaching that it is trying to teach dogs that machines are just as good as the true company they crave or need, we need to teach the it's ok to be without us not try and replace us with something else.
		
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Yes.  Anti bark collars are positive punishment as I said in a previous post.  However the point I'm making is that is is punishment so it's negative to the dog.
I'm not saying the trick and train type device is great. It is however positive reinforcement not positive punishment that the the anti bark collar is.


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## CorvusCorax (26 September 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			Wouldn't you rather reward the good than punish the bad?
		
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Life is tough sometimes, we all have to go through negative experiences and come out the other side. Telling our dogs otherwise is a lie, and letting someone/something else be the source of any negativity can make for insecure, clingy dogs. To me, it's like expecting a teacher at school to parent your child.
'Little Johnny was given lines for being bold, but it was the nasty teacher who gave him lines, not me, I'm lovely'.


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## twiggy2 (26 September 2019)

I am not debating who should use what, I believe everything used in the correct way has a place.
I have never seen an anti bark collar used correctly but have seen them used in a way that has causes great distress.
I do not however believe that remote treat dispensers can be used in an effective way to treat separation anxiety and barking when alone even at triggers is usually a sign of separation anxiety.


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## Sandstone1 (26 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			Life is tough sometimes, we all have to go through negative experiences and come out the other side. Telling our dogs otherwise is a lie, and letting someone/something else be the source of any negativity can make for insecure, clingy dogs. To me, it's like expecting a teacher at school to parent your child.
'Little Johnny was given lines for being bold, but it was the nasty teacher who gave him lines, not me, I'm lovely'.
		
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Exactly why I don't like anti bark collars!
I'm not saying that the trick and train thing is right at all.  Someone said you can't train a dog when not in the room.  You can use it to reinforce a positive behaviour just as you use the collar to positively punish a behaviour.   I actually don't like either but they are different sides to the same coin.


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## Squeak (26 September 2019)

Slightly scared to post on this thread but just thought I'd mention that any citronella spray collar can be made to be unscented by using an unscented refill.

https://www.doggiesolutions.co.uk/O...pSJZqxKR40B6_1-Yc6hUKgU5afltq558aAgVOEALw_wcB


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## Blanche (26 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			This isn't a comment on collars, but judging by some comments, are we at the stage now where a dog has to be shielded from any unpleasant experience?
And when unpleasantness comes from an extraneous source, and we as owners have not taught our dogs to deal with low level stress, is that not the ultimate unfairness? We've sold them a big lie.

It's a big thing now to build resilience in our children, but apparently not in the animals we share our lives and homes with.
		
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I don't know if this is aimed at me but I thought I would try and explain myself better. I do not try and shield an animal from an unpleasant experience. But I do not see the point of using a spray collar if it is just set off by noise. If the dog wearing the collar is with another dog and the other dog barks, the collar dog gets sprayed and this is not teaching them anything, other than a loud noise gets them sprayed. That inconsistency is why I wouldn't want to use them. I do hope this makes sense.


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## dree (26 September 2019)

YorksG said:



			I don't understand how someone can say that the last thing they want to do is cause their dog stress and then describe a situation their dog finds stressful, which they deliberately put the dog in.
		
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Unfortunately, despite all Areas requesting the out of sight stays be removed from the exercises required, the KC will not remove them.  So I am forced to place my dog in a situation I am not happy with.


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## YorksG (26 September 2019)

dree said:



			Unfortunately, despite all Areas requesting the out of sight stays be removed from the exercises required, the KC will not remove them.  So I am forced to place my dog in a situation I am not happy with.
		
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I have to disagree, you could choose to not enter your dog in those competitions, thus avoiding putting the dog under stress, it is entirely within your control


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## Clodagh (26 September 2019)

I have no problem with using an antibark on a tough minded dog like this terrier. However, the problem is solved at the moment as it is colder so I can keep my back door shut.  Also she is now shut in until we go and let her out, so I don't have to listen to her at 5am.

As for dogs having to deal with stress, of course they have to, they cannot spend their whole life shut away from anything that raises their heart rate.
Now I know very little of obedience, as a competitive thing, but watching a beautiful active dog like a collie creep around at every twitch of the owners finger is no doubt impressive to some, but I would rather watch the same breed round up a flock of sheep the other side of a valley from their owner, confident and empowered in their abilities and doing what they were designed to do. I don't see how obedience can never cause a dog to be stressed. I get stressed watching it!
My dogs are gun dogs and they have to travel on a gun bus crammed in with other dogs and strange people, they aren't madly keen on it but they have absolute faith that they are going to have fun when we get there and that I would never ask them to do something that they couldn't. It is hard, IM untrained opinion, to seperate stress and excitement, both cause panting and tenseness, surely?
That is an off topic ramble - but hey it's my thread!


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## dree (26 September 2019)

Blanche said:



			I don't know if this is aimed at me but I thought I would try and explain myself better. I do not try and shield an animal from an unpleasant experience. But I do not see the point of using a spray collar if it is just set off by noise. If the dog wearing the collar is with another dog and the other dog barks, the collar dog gets sprayed and this is not teaching them anything, other than a loud noise gets them sprayed. That inconsistency is why I wouldn't want to use them. I do hope this makes sense.
		
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And it also would make the dog even  more anxious than it was before.  It may even make it aggressive towards other dogs that bark, since the consquences for the dog with the collar on have been unpleasant.  And the dog will equate barking = unpleasant consequences for itself.


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## dree (26 September 2019)

YorksG said:



			I have to disagree, you could choose to not enter your dog in those competitions, thus avoiding putting the dog under stress, it is entirely within your control
		
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Yes, that's true.  But having well-trained and well-balanced dogs, we have managed this situation now for 40 years.


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## dree (26 September 2019)

Clodagh said:



			I have no problem with using an antibark on a tough minded dog like this terrier. However, the problem is solved at the moment as it is colder so I can keep my back door shut.  Also she is now shut in until we go and let her out, so I don't have to listen to her at 5am.

As for dogs having to deal with stress, of course they have to, they cannot spend their whole life shut away from anything that raises their heart rate.
Now I know very little of obedience, as a competitive thing, but watching a beautiful active dog like a collie creep around at every twitch of the owners finger is no doubt impressive to some, but I would rather watch the same breed round up a flock of sheep the other side of a valley from their owner, confident and empowered in their abilities and doing what they were designed to do. I don't see how obedience can never cause a dog to be stressed. I get stressed watching it!
My dogs are gun dogs and they have to travel on a gun bus crammed in with other dogs and strange people, they aren't madly keen on it but they have absolute faith that they are going to have fun when we get there and that I would never ask them to do something that they couldn't. It is hard, IM untrained opinion, to seperate stress and excitement, both cause panting and tenseness, surely?
That is an off topic ramble - but hey it's my thread!

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You have obviously never seen a good clicker-trained happy dog doing h/w.  Creeping around does not exist in our training.  I suggest you watch some Youtube vids of very good Ticket winners.  Below is my husband's Ticket dog.


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## dree (26 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			Or, she isn't confident enough to be away from you, out of sight. Insecurity is generally why dogs break downstays.
		
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She *is* confident enough in me.  But she is a very sweet, gentle dog who would rather move away from another dog that is giving off bad vibes.  In ten years, she has never done this, so has obviously been taught well, and is confident that I will return in a couple of minutes and remove her from the situation.  All our dogs do the Sit and Down stay with confidence, but every dog is different.  Race is gentle and would rather avoid confrontation....Grouse would be....bring it on, mate, you're in for a surprise.  (Neither dog breaks stays through insecurity.)


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## CorvusCorax (26 September 2019)

Blanche said:



			I don't know if this is aimed at me but I thought I would try and explain myself better. I do not try and shield an animal from an unpleasant experience. But I do not see the point of using a spray collar if it is just set off by noise. If the dog wearing the collar is with another dog and the other dog barks, the collar dog gets sprayed and this is not teaching them anything, other than a loud noise gets them sprayed. That inconsistency is why I wouldn't want to use them. I do hope this makes sense.
		
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No, it was just a general point


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## dree (26 September 2019)

. It is hard, IM untrained opinion, to seperate stress and excitement, both cause panting and tenseness, surely?
That is an off topic ramble - but hey it's my thread![/QUOTE]

Stress and excitement are, of course, different.  Stress causes much more than panting and tension.  (Like a kid climbing all over a dog, poking it, etc.)  That will cause a dog to show all the signs of tension.....wall eye, ears down, looking away, lip licking, eventual growling and trying to move away, etc.

Excitement could be chasing a ball (which is one of our dogs rewards) and means panting, bringing the ball back to be thrown again, bowing to owner to throw again, eyes bright and body language relaxed and happy.


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## CorvusCorax (26 September 2019)

dree said:



			She *is* confident enough in me.  But she is a very sweet, gentle dog who would rather move away from another dog that is giving off bad vibes.  In ten years, she has never done this, so has obviously been taught well, and is confident that I will return in a couple of minutes and remove her from the situation.  All our dogs do the Sit and Down stay with confidence, but every dog is different.  Race is gentle and would rather avoid confrontation....Grouse would be....bring it on, mate, you're in for a surprise.  (Neither dog breaks stays through insecurity.)
		
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How unfortunate that your dog ends up beside dogs giving off bad vibes in the down stay!

Do your dogs heel like that when the left hand is placed normally? Not clamped to the hip, I mean.
And is the answer to #63, 'tickets'?


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## Clodagh (26 September 2019)

dree said:



			. It is hard, IM untrained opinion, to seperate stress and excitement, both cause panting and tenseness, surely?
That is an off topic ramble - but hey it's my thread!

Click to expand...

Stress and excitement are, of course, different.  Stress causes much more than panting and tension.  (Like a kid climbing all over a dog, poking it, etc.)  That will cause a dog to show all the signs of tension.....wall eye, ears down, looking away, lip licking, eventual growling and trying to move away, etc.

Excitement could be chasing a ball (which is one of our dogs rewards) and means panting, bringing the ball back to be thrown again, bowing to owner to throw again, eyes bright and body language relaxed and happy.[/QUOTE]

I didn't explain myself well. I don't mean stress as in being climbed on by a child, I meant by perhaps being worried that they aren't going to do something. My middle bitch hates dogs sticking their nose up her rear end and gets stressed when she cannot get away from one doing it when she is in a confined place, she sits and pants, but no wall eye or licking, but it isn't excitement. When we unload she stresses that she might have missed something. When she sees a bird come down she stresses that I might send another dog. It isn't JUST excitement is what I am getting at.


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## Clodagh (26 September 2019)

dree said:



			You have obviously never seen a good clicker-trained happy dog doing h/w.  Creeping around does not exist in our training.  I suggest you watch some Youtube vids of very good Ticket winners.  Below is my husband's Ticket dog.
		
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She does look happy. And as though many treats have been used to achieve it. I have no problem with treat based training at all, but is she looking at your husband or a possible biscuit?


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## CorvusCorax (26 September 2019)

Stress can also be caused by slippy floors, bright lights, loud noises, other dogs, anticipation, etc etc etc. It's not always something nefarious.


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## dree (26 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			How unfortunate that your dog ends up beside dogs giving off bad vibes in the down stay!

Do your dogs heel like that when the left hand is placed normally? Not clamped to the hip, I mean.
And is the answer to #63, 'tickets'?
		
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Could be the Sit stay or the Down stay.  Every dog is different.  Perhaps because our dogs are different, other dogs don't approach them....I don't know.  They may be beside dogs that are as nice and confident as they are.

IPO is where the arms are allowed to swing.  In obedience, the left hand or arm is not allowed to move, so, yes, the left hand is kept on the hip area.

Is my answer to why I put them in stays winning a Ticket?  Yes and no.  I have won one Ticket in my life....same with my husband.  We prefer happy dogs, and if we have happy dogs that happen to win a Ticket as well, then that's great.  If they don't, we're not bothered.  Their health and happiness is what we want....and hopefully achieve.  (All dogs need to do stays....all through the classes....from Pre-Beginners, Beginners, Novice, A, B, C and Ticket.


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## CorvusCorax (26 September 2019)

Really


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## dree (26 September 2019)

Clodagh said:



			She does look happy. And as though many treats have been used to achieve it. I have no problem with treat based training at all, but is she looking at your husband or a possible biscuit?
		
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He (the dog is a he  ) is looking at my husband as he works.  He knows at the end of the "work" he will get his reward, whether that is some treats or his ball or a mix of both.  We tend to train with this manta in mind.....be unpredictable (with rewards and when they get them) always.  In that way you can extend the h/w without giving a treat every few steps.  You reward for the set-up, you reward for 10 steps of h/w, you reward for 50 steps, you go back and reward for the set-up of the h/w, you reward for 25, etc., etc., etc.  Unpredictable rewards are a proven way to "sell" rewards to your dog.  We also put a reward on the kitchen table, ask for a hand touch with no reward in hand, and reward after the hand touch.  We extend the time of hand touch, and we also extend on to what the dog can do without a reward coming immediately.  At least, that's the theory!!


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## dree (26 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			Really 

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Meaning?


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## dree (26 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			Stress can also be caused by slippy floors, bright lights, loud noises, other dogs, anticipation, etc etc etc. It's not always something nefarious.
		
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Yes, that's true.


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## ester (26 September 2019)

dree why isn't the hand allowed to move? signals or?


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## dree (26 September 2019)

ester said:



			dree why isn't the hand allowed to move? signals or?
		
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Mainly because most judges will mark for extra commands.  H/w now is more like dressage, which is why there are so many (ex-) horse people in the dog world.  The aim is to promote a picture of team-work combined with drive and (for me) happiness, as well as lack of faults.  I love it to bits.  I'm in a wheelchair at the mo, but hoping to be out of it soon and hopefully start training my dogs again.  In the mean-time, I just get to criticise my husband and his dogs!! 

Edited to add....the lower classes are allowed extra commands, so can move their hand if they want to.


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## ester (26 September 2019)

so it stops sneaky commands? Only because I don't think I've seen IPO giving extra commands either particularly but they do look more normal!


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## dree (26 September 2019)

ester said:



			so it stops sneaky commands? Only because I don't think I've seen IPO giving extra commands either particularly but they do look more normal!
		
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That is obviously a matter of opinion.  A swinging left arm can stop a dog from surging forward out of position.


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## Clodagh (26 September 2019)

dree said:



			Mainly because most judges will mark for extra commands.  H/w now is more like dressage, which is why there are so many (ex-) horse people in the dog world.  The aim is to promote a picture of team-work combined with drive and (for me) happiness, as well as lack of faults.  I love it to bits.  I'm in a wheelchair at the mo, but hoping to be out of it soon and hopefully start training my dogs again.  In the mean-time, I just get to criticise my husband and his dogs!! 

Edited to add....the lower classes are allowed extra commands, so can move their hand if they want to.
		
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Interesting you say it is like dressage, as I am always amazed that horses look enthusiastic about entering an arena to b ehave in a thoroughly unnatural manner. Yet they appear to do it although most appear stressed most of the time.

I can't imagine a dog saying 'Yay today I get to walk at heel' and show energy, yet there you go your dog looks happy enough in your photo. Mine look keen when walking at heel, but it is because they are going to do something else. Animals constantly surprise me with their tolerance for our needs!


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## suebou (26 September 2019)

Sorry Dree, many of your posts imply a personal standard of perfection that most of us can only aspire to! We have four visiting dogs in our kennels who are extremely noisy atm. The worst offender had a water bark collar on for twelve hours and peace is restored. The stress is removed from our dogs, who are trained not be be excessively noisy but were wound up by the visitors. Treating, time and patience would not have worked as we would have been rewarding the unacceptable behaviour. We currently have our 12 in kennels plus four visitors, including entire dogs and a bitch in season.
We have trained literally hundreds of dogs ( & people!) over many years for pets and as gun dogs and have never used treats or clicker training but very occasionally have used a bark collar, or god forbid, an electric collar in a last chance scenario. We work up to six spaniels, labs or other gundogs in a very high pressure environment throughout the winter and I can confirm that treats do not form part of that! My very much pet lurchers with a high prey drive do know that if I say 'what's this?' as they think about chasing something, there's a treat in store...my husband thinks I've sold out to the 'fluffy bunny' brigade. Bark collars are NOT cruel and they can be useful tools in breaking a long ingrained habit ( see Levrier and George!) Lots of ways to skin a cat, as they say! Yes, I expect (am certain) the gundogs would do obedience to a fairly high standard with a quick conversion period but obedience always looks very pressurized and very controlled so absolutely does not appeal. Each to their own as they say!


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## dree (26 September 2019)

suebou said:



			Sorry Dree, many of your posts imply a personal standard of perfection that most of us can only aspire to! We have four visiting dogs in our kennels who are extremely noisy atm. The worst offender had a water bark collar on for twelve hours and peace is restored. The stress is removed from our dogs, who are trained not be be excessively noisy but were wound up by the visitors. Treating, time and patience would not have worked as we would have been rewarding the unacceptable behaviour. We currently have our 12 in kennels plus four visitors, including entire dogs and a bitch in season.
We have trained literally hundreds of dogs ( & people!) over many years for pets and as gun dogs and have never used treats or clicker training but very occasionally have used a bark collar, or god forbid, an electric collar in a last chance scenario. We work up to six spaniels, labs or other gundogs in a very high pressure environment throughout the winter and I can confirm that treats do not form part of that! My very much pet lurchers with a high prey drive do know that if I say 'what's this?' as they think about chasing something, there's a treat in store...my husband thinks I've sold out to the 'fluffy bunny' brigade. Bark collars are NOT cruel and they can be useful tools in breaking a long ingrained habit ( see Levrier and George!) Lots of ways to skin a cat, as they say! Yes, I expect (am certain) the gundogs would do obedience to a fairly high standard with a quick conversion period but obedience always looks very pressurized and very controlled so absolutely does not appeal. Each to their own as they say!
		
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As you say, each to their own.  There are a quite a few gundogs in obedience now, including spaniels and labs and retrievers.....some of them are incredibly stylish and very happy in their work.  I know people who do gundog work and things like e-collars are very much frowned upon.  (Which is not surprising as no dog should be trained by fear (imo) and it's also against the law.)   I am fortunate in that I can work with my dogs (or someone else's dog) 24 hours a day if necessary.....I love training dogs.  Obedience is not pressurised or very controlled.....not amongst the people we train with anyway.  The "old" way of force is happily disappearing.  (And, btw, since dogs very much live "in the moment" (hence clicker training) the dog would not be being rewarded for barking.....in that second of reaching for the treat, the dog is not barking.


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## {97702} (26 September 2019)

Can anyone tell me when e collars actually became illegal? I can find loads of references to say that they are going to become illegal but no dates to say when it happened.

Just curious...


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## Sandstone1 (26 September 2019)

They are already banned in Scotland and Wales.   I don't think the law in England has yet been changed.  Interestingly, it also mentions spray collars here https://www.gov.uk/government/news/cruel-electric-shock-collars-for-pets-to-be-banned--2.


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## {97702} (26 September 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			They are already banned in Scotland and Wales.   I don't think the law in England has yet been changed.  Interestingly, it also mentions spray collars here https://www.gov.uk/government/news/cruel-electric-shock-collars-for-pets-to-be-banned--2.
		
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Yes Iâ€™d found that already - as I said, I was looking for a date when the legislation had taken effect.

So actually they arenâ€™t illegal, as I live in England


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## The Fuzzy Furry (26 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			So actually they arenâ€™t illegal, as I live in England
		
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Correct.


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## {97702} (26 September 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Correct.
		
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I thought as much.....


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## CorvusCorax (26 September 2019)

All dog sports can be stressful for the dog. Of course there's an element of pressure/control. It's bloody tiring for a dog to hold itself like that, concentrate, move in different directions, be denied reward as the round goes on, etc etc. Almost all dog sports are an unnatural/stylised manipulation of natural instinct.
Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves. That's not a bad thing, stress is part of life.
Let's not pretend that it doesn't exist and let's admit that we take part in dog sports because we like it.
Let's not pretend there's no stress or pressure anywhere in dog training, because it's not true. Even competing indoors can blow a 'postively trained' dog's brain.
Let's admit that most dog sport people purposely select or breed dogs from certain lines, dogs they know they can manipulate into their own training style. Genetics is hugely important and a huge factor in successful results.
Otherwise anyone could go and get a St Bernard from a dog pound and make it a top agility dog, couldn't they?
((No need for any 'exception to the rule' story of an odd breed doing well in an unusual discipline, because...it's an exception to the rule))

We humans say we train 'positive only' to make ourselves feel better.
The dog doesn't care less what it is doing.

And can we stop turning threads into sales pitches for perfect/aspirational dog training/husbandry, please?


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## Sandstone1 (26 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Yes Iâ€™d found that already - as I said, I was looking for a date when the legislation had taken effect.

So actually they arenâ€™t illegal, as I live in England
		
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It seems not yet in England, they soon will be though for anyone barbaric enough to use them.


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## {97702} (26 September 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			It seems not yet in England, they soon will be though for anyone barbaric enough to use them.
		
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I would doubt it will be soon, the state  that Parliament is currently in!

It might be worth checking facts before you post in future perhaps, or simply confirming that they are your opinions and not facts ðŸ˜Š


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## Sandstone1 (26 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			I would doubt it will be soon, the state  that Parliament is currently in!

It might be worth checking facts before you post in future perhaps, or simply confirming that they are your opinions and not facts ðŸ˜Š
		
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It is a fact.  They are illegal in Scotland and in Wales and will be in England.That's not my opinion its a fact.  I also don't need your permission to post facts or opinions but thanks for your comments.


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## {97702} (26 September 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			It is a fact.  They are illegal in Scotland and in Wales and will be in England.That's not my opinion its a fact.  I also don't need your permission to post facts or opinions but thanks for your comments.
		
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No problem any time


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## dree (26 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			All dog sports can be stressful for the dog. Of course there's an element of pressure/control. It's bloody tiring for a dog to hold itself like that, concentrate, move in different directions, be denied reward as the round goes on, etc etc. Almost all dog sports are an unnatural/stylised manipulation of natural instinct.
Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves. That's not a bad thing, stress is part of life.
Let's not pretend that it doesn't exist and let's admit that we take part in dog sports because we like it.
Let's not pretend there's no stress or pressure anywhere in dog training, because it's not true. Even competing indoors can blow a 'postively trained' dog's brain.
Let's admit that most dog sport people purposely select or breed dogs from certain lines, dogs they know they can manipulate into their own training style. Genetics is hugely important and a huge factor in successful results.
Otherwise anyone could go and get a St Bernard from a dog pound and make it a top agility dog, couldn't they?
((No need for any 'exception to the rule' story of an odd breed doing well in an unusual discipline, because...it's an exception to the rule))

We humans say we train 'positive only' to make ourselves feel better.
The dog doesn't care less what it is doing.

And can we stop turning threads into sales pitches for perfect/aspirational dog training/husbandry, please?
		
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Yes, h/w is an unnatural position for a dog to take......but that does NOT mean that there is any stress or pressure in the training or the actual competing.  It must be a long time since you watched the cream of obedience work their dogs, especially those who never use compulsion.

As for picking certain lines, my hubby and I must be soft as shite, because our first dogs were rescues from a farm.  One dog at 6 m/o used to flatten on to the floor if you lifted your arm......we re-trained him.  He was a super dog.  One of my first bitches came from horrific conditions....again from a farm.....you know.....those people whose dogs you like to see doing what they do best.....rounding up the sheep.  And my second bitch was from a rescue bitch.....we didn't know she was in pup.  (I used to take dogs from the vet, retrain and rehome.)  I kept her pup and found she was genetically fear aggressive.....I had never seen that before.  She qualified for Ticket and gained a few places in Ticket, including three thirds.

As for you last sentence, which I presume is aimed at me.  When did discussing on a forum become a place for such arrogance and bitchiness?  Because a lot of you are very, very good at that.

Edited to add.  You also said:- "We humans say we train 'positive only' to make ourselves feel better.
The dog doesn't care less what it is doing."

I don't say it to make myself feel better....it's what I do.  Maybe you feel guilty because you don't?  Your dogs *have* to work, whether they want to or not....or you wouldn't dream of using an e-collar, which I personally find disgusting....and only someone with very little knowledge and no way of thinking "outside the box" would dream of using one.  And the dog does care.....depending on how it is treated.....with kind-ness and compassion, or with a trainer's mind-set that the dog will do this......or else.


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## CorvusCorax (26 September 2019)

So there's no pressure or stress at all in competitive obedience, collies don't dominate/have particular aptitude for the competitive obedience ring, and you're never done posting about what an amazing trainer you are and everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong, yet it's others who are arrogant. Gotcha....


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## dree (26 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			So there's no pressure or stress at all in competitive obedience, collies don't dominate/have particular aptitude for the competitive obedience ring, and you're never done posting about what an amazing trainer you are and everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong, yet it's others who are arrogant. Gotcha....
		
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Dominate?  Why should a collie dominate???  If you have presumed I'm an amazing trainer....I can only thank you for that.  And yes, you are arrogant....been here a few years so think you own the place.


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## CorvusCorax (26 September 2019)

I think you misunderstood my use of the word 'dominate'  

I haven't presumed, I'm commenting on your posting style 

Been around a while, yes, but if you appear on a a forum and you rub multiple people with a diverse range of post history up the wrong way, it might not be the longer established posters who are the issue


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## CorvusCorax (26 September 2019)

dree said:



			I don't say it to make myself feel better....it's what I do.  Maybe you feel guilty because you don't?  Your dogs *have* to work, whether they want to or not....or you wouldn't dream of using an e-collar, which I personally find disgusting....and only someone with very little knowledge and no way of thinking "outside the box" would dream of using one.  And the dog does care.....depending on how it is treated.....with kind-ness and compassion, or with a trainer's mind-set that the dog will do this......or else.
		
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Sorry missed your edit. My dogs don't 'have' to work. I grew up with other people's rejects from the showring and I've happily retired dogs who just didn't want to be in the ring/competing. As it's not fair, otherwise. Points and prize cards don't mean that much to me.

I've made no comment whatsoever on the use of anti-bark or e-collars, just general points about pressure and stress, you must be confusing me with someone else.

I meant the dog doesn't care if it's competing or 'doing things' or not. 

It's really quite offensive to insinuate that anyone who doesn't agree with you must be cruel and I'd ask you respectfully to stop it please?


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## dree (26 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			I think you misunderstood my use of the word 'dominate' 

I haven't presumed, I'm commenting on your posting style 

Been around a while, yes, but if you appear on a a forum and you rub multiple people with a diverse range of post history up the wrong way, it might not be the longer established posters who are the issue 

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Oh, you don't like my posting style.  What if I don't like yours?  Is it a big deal?

I rub people up the wrong way with a diverse range of post history?  Hanging offence????  When I first started posting  , there was no leeway when I made mistakes, since I hadn't been on a forum for years.  (Didn't realise they still existed!!)  But no-one said.....it's ok, we understand.....it was, oh look, Dree's made a huge sodding mistake.....again.....on the first/second day of coming on here.  No sympathy.....just jumping down my throat.  That's not the way people should communicate, no matter how they are doing it.  You have no idea who I am.  No idea of my mental state.  I personally think you should all take your arrogance and have a rethink on how you treat people on this forum.  Maybe you've been here too long.  I should state that a couple of people are really nice, ask questions or whatever.  I try my best to answer all questions as correctly as possible.  If that is an offence (and apparently showing how wonderful I am....I wish!!) then I can only apologise.  I love my dogs deeply, and I love obedience deeply.  They have taken over from horses, which were the love of my life, so I try to help/answer as best I can.  If I go on too much (as I am here!!) I do apologise.  But if anyone wants help, I will jump through hoops to help them.

Edit to add.....I have not insinuated that anyone who does not train as I do is cruel.  Where have I done that??

And, yes, I mixed you up with someone else re: the e-collars, so my sincere apologies for that.


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## CorvusCorax (26 September 2019)

Yes, we probably have!


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## {97702} (26 September 2019)

WTAF???!!!!! ðŸ˜³ðŸ˜³ðŸ˜³ðŸ˜³


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## dree (26 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			Yes, we probably have!
		
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What do you mean pls?


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## CorvusCorax (26 September 2019)

Dree, you've indicated that perhaps you're not in a good place right now, it's late and we're probably all tired, and I don't think it's worth further engaging at this point. Night.


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## dree (26 September 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			Dree, you've indicated that perhaps you're not in a good place right now, it's late and we're probably all tired, and I don't think it's worth further engaging at this point. Night.
		
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Ummm, no, I'm fine, but having had someone quite close commit suicide not so long ago, it's something I am always very, very aware of.  But I'm ok, so thank-you for your concern.  Tired, yes, but could you answer what "Yes, we probably have" meant?  Thanks.


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## Sandstone1 (27 September 2019)

dree said:



			Oh, you don't like my posting style.  What if I don't like yours?  Is it a big deal?

I rub people up the wrong way with a diverse range of post history?  Hanging offence????  When I first started posting  , there was no leeway when I made mistakes, since I hadn't been on a forum for years.  (Didn't realise they still existed!!)  But no-one said.....it's ok, we understand.....it was, oh look, Dree's made a huge sodding mistake.....again.....on the first/second day of coming on here.  No sympathy.....just jumping down my throat.  That's not the way people should communicate, no matter how they are doing it.  You have no idea who I am.  No idea of my mental state.  I personally think you should all take your arrogance and have a rethink on how you treat people on this forum.  Maybe you've been here too long.  I should state that a couple of people are really nice, ask questions or whatever.  I try my best to answer all questions as correctly as possible.  If that is an offence (and apparently showing how wonderful I am....I wish!!) then I can only apologise.  I love my dogs deeply, and I love obedience deeply.  They have taken over from horses, which were the love of my life, so I try to help/answer as best I can.  If I go on too much (as I am here!!) I do apologise.  But if anyone wants help, I will jump through hoops to help them.

Edit to add.....I have not insinuated that anyone who does not train as I do is cruel.  Where have I done that??

And, yes, I mixed you up with someone else re: the e-collars, so my sincere apologies for that.
		
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I do have to agree with some of this.  In this section of the forum there seem to be a couple of people who seem to think there word is law.  They may have a lot of experience with dogs.  They may use old fashioned methods. They may have been on this forum for ever and a day but that does not mean they are always correct.
There should be room for different points of view and methods.   Dog training has come a long way and things are changing.  Just because you have always done something one way doesn't mean it's the only way.


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## twiggy2 (27 September 2019)

dree said:



			One of my first bitches came from horrific conditions....again from a farm.....you know.....those people whose dogs you like to see doing what they do best.....rounding up the sheep.  And my second bitch was from a rescue bitch.....we didn't know she was in pup.  (I used to take dogs from the vet, retrain and rehome.)




			I take great exception at your comment about farms and working collies, both back down south and where I am now in the Highlands I have not experienced any bad treatment of the working collies, I am not saying it does not exist but all of the dogs I have seen apart from one I currently have (her history is not known to me) are bloody wet blankets when it comes to a cuddle, how do you think you get the dogs to herd as nature has bred them to do but to call off when asked? If everyone used a shock collar to get the dogs of sheep there were be very few working collies as they would all think sheep give out pain. The dogs come away for a fuss initially and then they learn coming of men's going back to sheep so the reward is in the work.
I spent over 18 years as a pet dog trainer before starting with working collies, I also spent 14 yrs at a vets and would take on unwanted dogs, get them well and find a good known home.
The worst bad treatment/cruelty I have seen has been was by a collie breeder and her daughter, they did obedience and would show. They had one dog that was dog aggressive and he would be taken behind a marquee by the mother before a showing class and given a 'hiding' to keep him 'straight' in the class, the other had to do this as if the daughter did it he would be 'too flat' when showing. It was known that they did this and accepted/ignored.
There are bad owners of all breeds and in all situations but from what I have seen most shepherds may shout (a lot) but are generally pretty soft on their dogs, after all people like us depend on their dogs, we are self employed and our dogs help us earn a large part of our living.
		
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## Clodagh (27 September 2019)

I think debate about training methods is interesting and enjoyable. The trouble is when people stop debating and start arguing! We all have different opinions on the best way to achieve results and in all walks of life, from pet dogs to police dogs, there are people that abuse/are too hard/ shouldn't own a sentient being. 
Our way is not always the right way or the only way.


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## rabatsa (27 September 2019)

And dogs differ too, what works for a soft dog would be ignored by a hard dog.  They can be motivated by different things, trying to get a lurcher off a deer in full flight and visibility is not the same as stopping a bored dog from removing the stuffing from a cushion.


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## Clodagh (27 September 2019)

rabatsa said:



			And dogs differ too, what works for a soft dog would be ignored by a hard dog.  They can be motivated by different things, trying to get a lurcher off a deer in full flight and visibility is not the same as stopping a bored dog from removing the stuffing from a cushion.
		
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Very good point. 
Well my horrible puppy has just been in the garden while I lopped some branches off a tree (also in the garden). She got bored so dug a mammoth hole, chewed my husbands shoe and then put it in the hole and then stalked some chicks and ate their food. My fault entirely, no point telling her off. She has been on the go with me since 6am. This is why people don't have trials bred labs as pets!


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## {97702} (27 September 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			I do have to agree with some of this.  In this section of the forum there seem to be a couple of people who seem to think there word is law.  They may have a lot of experience with dogs.  They may use old fashioned methods. They may have been on this forum for ever and a day but that does not mean they are always correct.
There should be room for different points of view and methods.   Dog training has come a long way and things are changing.  Just because you have always done something one way doesn't mean it's the only way.
		
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How terribly subtle Sandstone when we have just disagreed about the use of citronella spray collars ðŸ™„

In very general terms, and not aimed at Sandstone in any way, I totally agree that there are many ways to train dogs.  As far as I recall,  I have never stated that my way is â€˜the only wayâ€™ and that newer methods should not be used - I simply use the method which I think will be effective for the dog in question 

For a toughnut terrier I know that treats or clicker training (for example) wonâ€™t overcome ingrained behaviours established over many years. They may be exactly the right thing for my sensitive greyhound boy who reacts to loud noises or sudden movements.

Conversely to other posters, what does annoy me on this section of the forum is when users ask about a training method which is considered â€˜old fashionedâ€™ now and are promptly labelled as cruel or unkind - that may be the case if that method is used inappropriately, but it need not always be the case.  Iâ€™ve used large link choke chains in the past for example - people would throw their hands up in horror now at that idea - but FOR THE DOG IN QUESTION it was an effective intervention.  Which wonâ€™t stop people suggesting that Iâ€™m cruel/old fashioned/out dated/barbaric Iâ€™m sure ðŸ™„


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## Clodagh (27 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			How terribly subtle Sandstone when we have just disagreed about the use of citronella spray collars ðŸ™„

In very general terms, and not aimed at Sandstone in any way, I totally agree that there are many ways to train dogs.  As far as I recall,  I have never stated that my way is â€˜the only wayâ€™ and that newer methods should not be used - I simply use the method which I think will be effective for the dog in question

For a toughnut terrier I know that treats or clicker training (for example) wonâ€™t overcome ingrained behaviours established over many years. They may be exactly the right thing for my sensitive greyhound boy who reacts to loud noises or sudden movements.

Conversely to other posters, what does annoy me on this section of the forum is when users ask about a training method which is considered â€˜old fashionedâ€™ now and are promptly labelled as cruel or unkind - that may be the case if that method is used inappropriately, but it need not always be the case.  Iâ€™ve used large link choke chains in the past for example - people would throw their hands up in horror now at that idea - but FOR THE DOG IN QUESTION it was an effective intervention.  Which wonâ€™t stop people suggesting that Iâ€™m cruel/old fashioned/out dated/barbaric Iâ€™m sure ðŸ™„
		
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I'm a great believer in old fashioned methods. I even yell at my dogs occasionally - which I am sure is extremely unpositive training. They actually understand FOR F***S SAKE quite well.  
Thing about old fashioned methods (not the sort of 'carry a dog around by it's ears' training but may be the 'tap on the bum' type thing) is they are effective, generally. Some of the modern stuff (never tell a dog it is doing anything wrong just let it learn by itself with happy guidance) is totally ineffective. Both have their place and sometimes you need to mix it up a bit.


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## ester (27 September 2019)

dree said:



			Maybe you've been here too long.?
		
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CorvusCorax said:



			Yes, we probably have!
		
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dree said:



			.  Tired, yes, but could you answer what "Yes, we probably have" meant?  Thanks.
		
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Hope that helps, it was quite obvious to me  but thought would help to point out that is all I'm sure CC meant. (working up to 50k post party here  )


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## Tiddlypom (27 September 2019)

Clodagh said:



			Some of the modern stuff (never tell a dog it is doing anything wrong just let it learn by itself with happy guidance) is totally ineffective.
		
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I tried my very best to get the JRT to to associate horses being ridden past outside our frontage to being called over for a treat and a tummy scratch. Occasionally, if he was right by me, heâ€™d fall for it come over obediently for a fuss, but mostly it was much more fun to rush over and woof at the horses all the way along the fence line as they went past. The anti bark collar was much more effective.

And as for recall if he put up a bunny on a walk, well, pfttt. Hence the extending lead (which are very useful if used as intended, with the lock on if necessary).


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## Moobli (27 September 2019)

Clodagh said:



			I think debate about training methods is interesting and enjoyable. The trouble is when people stop debating and start arguing! We all have different opinions on the best way to achieve results and in all walks of life, from pet dogs to police dogs, there are people that abuse/are too hard/ shouldn't own a sentient being.
Our way is not always the right way or the only way.
		
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Hallelujah!  I usually enjoy this forum (I only really come on for the dog section) but it's made me cringe of late.  Let's debate different training and husbandry methods but can we have less of the argumentative bickering, please.


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## Moobli (27 September 2019)

I am not a positive only trainer (I wish I had the skill set to be) but do try to use positive rewards based methods where I can, and especially with puppies when learning new behaviours.  However, I will use "no" (which I believe some positive only trainers disagree with) and I will raise my voice, tap on the bum etc if I feel it is warranted.  I've always tried to train the dog in front of me and different dogs often require different approaches.


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## Sandstone1 (27 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			How terribly subtle Sandstone when we have just disagreed about the use of citronella spray collars ðŸ™„

In very general terms, and not aimed at Sandstone in any way, I totally agree that there are many ways to train dogs.  As far as I recall,  I have never stated that my way is â€˜the only wayâ€™ and that newer methods should not be used - I simply use the method which I think will be effective for the dog in question

For a toughnut terrier I know that treats or clicker training (for example) wonâ€™t overcome ingrained behaviours established over many years. They may be exactly the right thing for my sensitive greyhound boy who reacts to loud noises or sudden movements.

Conversely to other posters, what does annoy me on this section of the forum is when users ask about a training method which is considered â€˜old fashionedâ€™ now and are promptly labelled as cruel or unkind - that may be the case if that method is used inappropriately, but it need not always be the case.  Iâ€™ve used large link choke chains in the past for example - people would throw their hands up in horror now at that idea - but FOR THE DOG IN QUESTION it was an effective intervention.  Which wonâ€™t stop people suggesting that Iâ€™m cruel/old fashioned/out dated/barbaric Iâ€™m sure ðŸ™„
		
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It wasn't intended to be subtle at all.   In fact if you want it in black and white yes you are one of the posters I mean.     There are other methods and more up to date thinking on dog training.  Your way is one but there are others.


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## {97702} (27 September 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			It wasn't intended to be subtle at all.   In fact if you want it in black and white yes you are one of the posters I mean.     There are other methods and more up to date thinking on dog training.  Your way is one but there are others.
		
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Funnily enough thatâ€™s exactly what I said ðŸ™„

Iâ€™d also be interested to find out when Iâ€™ve ever said â€˜mine is the only training method that should be usedâ€™?


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## dree (27 September 2019)

ester said:



			Hope that helps, it was quite obvious to me  but thought would help to point out that is all I'm sure CC meant. (working up to 50k post party here  )
		
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Thanks.  There was no quote with it, but I should have maybe joined the dots!  Was tired, so that's my only excuse.


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## ester (27 September 2019)

IME people only tend to quote when they aren't the next person to post just so it's known who they are replying to. If there are no posts in between people tend not to bother.


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## Clodagh (27 September 2019)

ester said:



			IME people only tend to quote when they aren't the next person to post just so it's known who they are replying to. If there are no posts in between people tend not to bother.
		
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I get caught out when I am laboriously typing a reply with no quote and someone else jumps in!


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## ester (27 September 2019)

lol it's not an absolute, but yes the red banner of FGS!


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## dree (27 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Conversely to other posters, what does annoy me on this section of the forum is when users ask about a training method which is considered â€˜old fashionedâ€™ now and are promptly labelled as cruel or unkind - that may be the case if that method is used inappropriately, but it need not always be the case.  Iâ€™ve used large link choke chains in the past for example - people would throw their hands up in horror now at that idea - but FOR THE DOG IN QUESTION it was an effective intervention.  Which wonâ€™t stop people suggesting that Iâ€™m cruel/old fashioned/out dated/barbaric Iâ€™m sure ðŸ™„
		
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Not quite sure where anyone has said that "old-fashioned" is cruel?  (Unkind, maybe, depending on the circumstances, but I personally don't remember anyone saying that you were cruel?)  But personally, I would not use a check chain on a dog.


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## dree (27 September 2019)

ester said:



			IME people only tend to quote when they aren't the next person to post just so it's known who they are replying to. If there are no posts in between people tend not to bother.
		
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Thanks, didn't know that.


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## {97702} (27 September 2019)

dree said:



			Not quite sure where anyone has said that "old-fashioned" is cruel?  (Unkind, maybe, depending on the circumstances, but I personally don't remember anyone saying that you were cruel?)  But personally, I would not use a check chain on a dog.
		
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No I didn't think for a moment you would use one   In the same way that (for example) I wouldn't use the horrible fine-linked chains that dog show people use to 'string up' hounds and terriers in the show ring, I imagine it is something that doesn't sit well with you?

I would remind you that you yourself said I was cruel..... I stated I had used a citronella spray collar, posts #19 and #20 on this thread you stated that these collars were cruel..... hope that helps


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## dree (27 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			No I didn't think for a moment you would use one   In the same way that (for example) I wouldn't use the horrible fine-linked chains that dog show people use to 'string up' hounds and terriers in the show ring, I imagine it is something that doesn't sit well with you?

I would remind you that you yourself said I was cruel..... I stated I had used a citronella spray collar, posts #19 and #20 on this thread you stated that these collars were cruel..... hope that helps 

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No, I don't like the fine check chains used in breed showing.  I did not say *you* were cruel, I said that I believe the collars are cruel.  No point in using them, especially if another dog is close.  (You want me to remember posts 19 and 20??  I take it you have actually taken the time to look these up???  What a waste of time.  Or you have a superb memory. )


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## {97702} (27 September 2019)

dree said:



			No, I don't like the fine check chains used in breed showing.  I did not say *you* were cruel, I said that I believe the collars are cruel.  No point in using them, especially if another dog is close.  (You want me to remember posts 19 and 20??  I take it you have actually taken the time to look these up???  What a waste of time.  Or you have a superb memory. )
		
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Honestly Dree, it is posts like this that really annoy people, long time established users or not.  No, you did not explicitly say that I was cruel, you suggested it by association which anyone with a modicum of understanding of the English language would understand

I can say without a doubt, based on your previous posting history, that if I had NOT given you those specific references you would have claimed I was attributing things to you incorrectly.  

Since I have given them, you claim I have "wasted my time" looking them up.

To explain, the sort of approach that you have used is called 'internet trolling' - posting things which are specifically designed to cause a reaction.   Those of us who have been on the forum for a long time have seen it hundreds of times over the years, and it really does get a bit tedious and repetitive after a while.   You will now claim I am arrogant, rude, a bully, etc etc etc.


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## Clodagh (27 September 2019)

I think Dree has every right to post her opinion, and it is interesting always to hear how diffferent people do things. On a forum it is hard to read the tone of things, and that goes for everyone.
I hate dog showing when they are strangled to hold their heads up, btw.


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## Sandstone1 (27 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Funnily enough thatâ€™s exactly what I said ðŸ™„

Iâ€™d also be interested to find out when Iâ€™ve ever said â€˜mine is the only training method that should be usedâ€™?
		
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you may not have said it but have possibly implied it by the way you answer.  That's how it comes across to me anyway.  Maybe I'm wrong.
personally,  I do not like spray or electric collars or check chains.   You may feel differently.   I have used check chains in the dim and distant past but like to think things have evolved and there are many different kinder options now.
I won't be intimidated by long term posters who put down more positive methods.
we will have to agree to differ.


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## splashgirl45 (27 September 2019)

have read all of this thread and have had to sit on my fingers but will now put my point of view......  what must be kept in mind is the dog in front  of you at the time and some slightly more forceful means may be necessary,  for instance if you have taken  on a large adult  dog who has no manners a choke collar together with a normal collar may be useful in the case of said large dog deciding it will run across the road and take no notice of the normal collar, you then have a second strategy.  i have had different breeds and collies seem to train themselves and only need things explained once at the other end of the spectrum is terriers who need telling countless times and can be quite challenging,  and lots of others in between.  one training method CANNOT be used for every dog.....


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## {97702} (27 September 2019)

Clodagh said:



			I think Dree has every right to post her opinion, and it is interesting always to hear how diffferent people do things. On a forum it is hard to read the tone of things, and that goes for everyone.
I hate dog showing when they are strangled to hold their heads up, btw. 

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Oh FFS this is getting ridiculous - I didnt say Dree DIDNT have a right to post her opinion, I said that IMO that particular post was unnecessarily emotive and therefore was (again IMO) trolling for the reasons previously stated.  If she (I am guessing she?) had stated her views in a different manner I would not have made the comment - see for example the way Sandstone responded to me, explaining her view calmly and unemotionally

And Sandstone, I am not and never have suggested you need to be intimidated by my views or anyone elses views on this forum, that is a perception all of your own


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## Sandstone1 (27 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Oh FFS this is getting ridiculous - I didnt say Dree DIDNT have a right to post her opinion, I said that IMO that particular post was unnecessarily emotive and therefore was (again IMO) trolling for the reasons previously stated.  If she (I am guessing she?) had stated her views in a different manner I would not have made the comment - see for example the way Sandstone responded to me, explaining her view calmly and unemotionally

And Sandstone, I am not and never have suggested you need to be intimidated by my views or anyone elses views on this forum, that is a perception all of your own
		
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Maybe it is.    It's just that on this part of the forum it often seems posters do seem to get jumped on for having different views to some long term posters with strong views and it may be off putting to some.
I'm afraid I'm old enough and ugly enough not to be bothered by that as I'm more than able to stand my ground.
perhaps I'm wrong as I say and apologise if its just my perception of it.


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## DabDab (27 September 2019)

Lalalalala. I knew when I saw the title of this thread it would be unwise to open it 

If I have terriers and quite like and laugh at the fact that they frequently look at me like I've gone out when I give them a command does that make me a new age or old fashioned type dog trainer?


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## splashgirl45 (27 September 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			Maybe it is.    It's just that on this part of the forum it often seems posters do seem to get jumped on for having different views to some long term posters with strong views and it may be off putting to some.
I'm afraid I'm old enough and ugly enough not to be bothered by that as I'm more than able to stand my ground.
perhaps I'm wrong as I say and apologise if its just my perception of it.
		
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dont apologise,  it just seems that feelings run very high when dog training is involved.  some of the posters who have been around a long time have shedloads of experience and are giving their views on what has worked for them.  as i said before each dog is an individual and i thought i was a good dog trainer until i encountered my last  lurcher 17 years ago. what a shock!!!!    i then realised i had to act very differently with her as she had a very high prey drive which i hadnt encountered before even though i had owned lurchers before...i had also owned many terriers but my latest little monster (who is currently asleep on my lap, love him...) has been a huge challenge and i have had to learn different strategies to combat his behaviour.  ..i have owned dogs for over 50 years and am still learning and will always read these threads and take some of  the ideas on board...


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## {97702} (27 September 2019)

DabDab said:



			Lalalalala. I knew when I saw the title of this thread it would be unwise to open it 

If I have terriers and quite like and laugh at the fact that they frequently look at me like I've gone out when I give them a command does that make me a new age or old fashioned type dog trainer?
		
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Genuine question, because I've only ever had the adorable George!  

IF I were to have a terrier puppy in the future, would I be able to train said puppy not to yap all the time?  I am at a really genuine loss to know what is George-after-11-years and what is terriers per se?


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## Blazingsaddles (27 September 2019)

Moobli said:



			I am not a positive only trainer (I wish I had the skill set to be) but do try to use positive rewards based methods where I can, and especially with puppies when learning new behaviours.  However, I will use "no" (which I believe some positive only trainers disagree with) and I will raise my voice, tap on the bum etc if I feel it is warranted.  I've always tried to train the dog in front of me and different dogs often require different approaches.
		
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This. Honestly, common sense prevails every time. Iâ€™ve owned dogs that could not care less if you threatened them with the electric chair. Others would have a breakdown if you so much as raised an eyebrow. Judging the dog in front of you and understanding what will work for that dog is paramount.


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## Clodagh (27 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Genuine question, because I've only ever had the adorable George! 

IF I were to have a terrier puppy in the future, would I be able to train said puppy not to yap all the time?  I am at a really genuine loss to know what is George-after-11-years and what is terriers per se? 

Click to expand...


We've had one who yapped ALL THE TIME. TBF she was rehomed as she did just that, and they were totally honest but she still totally did my head in. We got her at a year old and when she died at 13 she was still yapping ALL THE BLOODY TIME. The other 20 odd terriers we had over the years were mostly absolutely fine and no woofier than anything else, tbh. The odd one did like the sound of it's own voice but not too bad. And I am extremely bark intolarant.


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## Clodagh (27 September 2019)

DabDab said:



			Lalalalala. I knew when I saw the title of this thread it would be unwise to open it 

If I have terriers and quite like and laugh at the fact that they frequently look at me like I've gone out when I give them a command does that make me a new age or old fashioned type dog trainer?
		
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It makes you a realist!


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## Clodagh (27 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Oh FFS this is getting ridiculous - I didnt say Dree DIDNT have a right to post her opinion, I said that IMO that particular post was unnecessarily emotive and therefore was (again IMO) trolling for the reasons previously stated.  If she (I am guessing she?) had stated her views in a different manner I would not have made the comment - see for example the way Sandstone responded to me, explaining her view calmly and unemotionally

And Sandstone, I am not and never have suggested you need to be intimidated by my views or anyone elses views on this forum, that is a perception all of your own
		
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Calm down, you are getting awful defensive. It wasn't specifically aimed at you - you and Dree and CC and me and Sandstone and everyone else have every right to state our opinions.


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## TheresaW (27 September 2019)

I am not a dog expert by any means. Had dogs when I lived with my parents, but after leaving home, working etc, it was never the right time to get a dog. When Aled (Border Collie) came to us as a 10yo, he was very well trained. Took a while to get him used to the horses, and after about 6 weeks we found out about his resource guarding issues! We learnt to manage his guarding issues, I got bitten once which ended with me on ABâ€™s. He was absolutely terrified of loud noises, fireworks, guns etc. He would be ok with the gas guns near the horses as long as we were playing ball. In one way, Iâ€™m glad heâ€™s no longer with us, as last years firework season was an absolute nightmare for him. ðŸ˜¢

We got Luna as puppy. You can never let Huskies off lead we were told. They donâ€™t know recall, prey drive is sky high they said. We worked very hard on recall with her, but she was never off lead unless in a secure field. She was an absolute pleasure, followed me everywhere when doing the horses, left them completely alone, moved away if they got too close. At 2yo, almost to the day, her prey drive kicked in. She knows the rabbits are the other side of the fence, and spends the whole time looking for a way out. Am hoping that will calm down a bit when winter hits! 

We got Bo, the 4yo Border Collie in Feb. He couldnâ€™t be more different to Aled. He is very lead aggressive, and gets very very anxious, also doesnâ€™t really like people he doesnâ€™t know. CC and Moobli, as well as Clodagh have given me lots of help and advice. He will now walk ok on lead if we are on our own. Weâ€™ve been on holiday this week, and heâ€™s had to be on lead some of the time, and although he hasnâ€™t been happy about it, he has coped.

Guess what Iâ€™m trying to say is, all dogs are different, even when same breeds. I know some people who walk their husky off lead all the time, definitely not something I would ever do. The 2 collies weâ€™ve had have been chalk and cheese. When we got Bo, he had a habit of cocking his leg and spraying around the house. When a firm no didnâ€™t work, he did get a tap on the bum. I think heâ€™d stopped within a week. 

Sorry for the ramble.


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## DabDab (27 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Genuine question, because I've only ever had the adorable George! 

IF I were to have a terrier puppy in the future, would I be able to train said puppy not to yap all the time?  I am at a really genuine loss to know what is George-after-11-years and what is terriers per se? 

Click to expand...

If I had to generalise I would say that jrts tend to be gobbier than the average dog, but terriers in general are fairly quiet I think.

My little Dee is exceptionally chatty, but mainly just conversational type noises rather than yapping at you, but she does have an overwhelming urge to bark when let out first thing in the morning. If I'm stood there distracting and reminding her every 30 seconds or so then she can just about keep the bark in, but I can see that it is taking every ounce of self control in her body, and the moment I walk away she'll scoot round the corner to let the bark out. Could it be trained out of her? Possibly. But her natural urge to do it is as strong as her natural urge to pee. Fortunately Eira is as quiet as a church mouse and if she ever does see something that causes her to let out a bark she responds 100% to a request to pipe down and leave whatever it is alone.


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## dree (27 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Honestly Dree, it is posts like this that really annoy people, long time established users or not.  No, you did not explicitly say that I was cruel, you suggested it by association which anyone with a modicum of understanding of the English language would understand

I can say without a doubt, based on your previous posting history, that if I had NOT given you those specific references you would have claimed I was attributing things to you incorrectly.

Since I have given them, you claim I have "wasted my time" looking them up.

To explain, the sort of approach that you have used is called 'internet trolling' - posting things which are specifically designed to cause a reaction.   Those of us who have been on the forum for a long time have seen it hundreds of times over the years, and it really does get a bit tedious and repetitive after a while.   You will now claim I am arrogant, rude, a bully, etc etc etc.
		
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Basically......What on earth are you talking about????  Where have I posted something to specifically cause a reaction?

Personally, your post above is, to me, quite inexplicable and utter rubbish.

Edit to add.....have looked at posts 19 and 20 and still haven't a clue what you're on about.


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## dree (27 September 2019)

splashgirl45 said:



			have read all of this thread and have had to sit on my fingers but will now put my point of view......  what must be kept in mind is the dog in front  of you at the time and some slightly more forceful means may be necessary,  for instance if you have taken  on a large adult  dog who has no manners a choke collar together with a normal collar may be useful in the case of said large dog deciding it will run across the road and take no notice of the normal collar, you then have a second strategy.  i have had different breeds and collies seem to train themselves and only need things explained once at the other end of the spectrum is terriers who need telling countless times and can be quite challenging,  and lots of others in between.  one training method CANNOT be used for every dog.....
		
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I used to go out to all types of dogs which had been allowed to get out of control.  The same tools control them all.  You put some rules in place *before* you step out the door.  Physical strength shouldn't come into it.....I don't want to fight a Rottie any more than I would fight a stallion.  All dogs eat, so all dogs can be trained by clicker training.....with food.  That is it put very basically.....and how I wish collies trained themselves to do what I want them to do....not make up mischief for themselves.


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## dree (27 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Oh FFS this is getting ridiculous - I didnt say Dree DIDNT have a right to post her opinion, I said that IMO that particular post was unnecessarily emotive and therefore was (again IMO) trolling for the reasons previously stated.  If she (I am guessing she?) had stated her views in a different manner I would not have made the comment - see for example the way Sandstone responded to me, explaining her view calmly and unemotionally

And Sandstone, I am not and never have suggested you need to be intimidated by my views or anyone elses views on this forum, that is a perception all of your own
		
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And, imo, you make assumptions which are both incorrect and harsh and downright stupid sometimes, as well as being totally arrogant, because you assume that we are all bowing down to *your* opinion.  Me stating that e-collars (or citronella ones) make you a cruel person is just farcical.  You need to see someone about your over-rated opinion of yourself and your posts.  Maybe you should have a good look at your posts, and see who the troll really is?


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## dree (27 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Funnily enough thatâ€™s exactly what I said ðŸ™„

Iâ€™d also be interested to find out when Iâ€™ve ever said â€˜mine is the only training method that should be usedâ€™?
		
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This is what I consider to be trolling......written solely for a reaction.


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## {97702} (27 September 2019)

dree said:



			And, imo, you make assumptions which are both incorrect and harsh and downright stupid sometimes, as well as being totally arrogant, because you assume that we are all bowing down to *your* opinion.  Me stating that e-collars (or citronella ones) make you a cruel person is just farcical.  You need to see someone about your over-rated opinion of yourself and your posts.  Maybe you should have a good look at your posts, and see who the troll really is?
		
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Bless ðŸ˜Š


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## dree (27 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Bless ðŸ˜Š
		
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And that is downright nasty.  You need help.  You accuse people of trolling....please can you show me a post where I am too "emotive" (can someone be too emotive on a subject they love?) as apparently that makes me a troll?


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## dree (27 September 2019)

Could someone please look at post 146 and tell me how that makes me a troll?  I'm serious here.


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## DabDab (27 September 2019)

Dree, Lev, nobody cares, this isn't Facebook. 
Dogs, we want to talk about dogs


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## dree (27 September 2019)

DabDab said:



			Dree, Lev, nobody cares, this isn't Facebook.
Dogs, we want to talk about dogs
		
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So do I, but since I've been called a troll, I'd like to know how I managed it.


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## {97702} (27 September 2019)

DabDab said:



			Dree, Lev, nobody cares, this isn't Facebook.
Dogs, we want to talk about dogs
		
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Lol it certainly isnâ€™t - my FB just talks about dogs ðŸ˜„


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## dree (28 September 2019)

I am removing myslelf from this forum.  No doubt Levrier, and others, will be delighted.  From the moment I typed a post on here the "atmosphere", for want of a better word, has been antagonistic, negative, almost toxic.  I don't need that in my life.  All my posts seem to have been about replying to certain people over their sarcasm and their seeming belief that they "own" this forum.....or this part of it.  I would like to say it's been a pleasure, but it's been anything but.  I wish the genuine people on here the very best.  For myself, life is too short for what has been, it seems, a constant battle.  I have other battles to fight, like the one for my health.  This negativity, as I said in a previous post, is what can drive someone over the edge.  I'm not one of them.  But in a day and age when suicide rates are high, people really should think twice before they reply with sarcastic and often downwright nasty posts.


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## DabDab (28 September 2019)

dree said:



			I am removing myslelf from this forum.  No doubt Levrier, and others, will be delighted.  From the moment I typed a post on here the "atmosphere", for want of a better word, has been antagonistic, negative, almost toxic.  I don't need that in my life.  All my posts seem to have been about replying to certain people over their sarcasm and their seeming belief that they "own" this forum.....or this part of it.  I would like to say it's been a pleasure, but it's been anything but.  I wish the genuine people on here the very best.  For myself, life is too short for what has been, it seems, a constant battle.  I have other battles to fight, like the one for my health.  This negativity, as I said in a previous post, is what can drive someone over the edge.  I'm not one of them.  But in a day and age when suicide rates are high, people really should think twice before they reply with sarcastic and often downwright nasty posts.
		
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There's no need to flounce. You clearly care deeply about your dogs and are a knowledgeable dog owner with a good deal of experience. so it would be great to have you on here.

The only reason that you've had people responding to you fairly robustly is that your tone, on this thread and others, comes across as patronising, like you're trying to educate the simpletons, which obviously tends to get people's backs up. But I'm sure your posting style will settle and make it easier for you to get your opinion across - like you say you're not used to these forums yet


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## DabDab (28 September 2019)

Levrier said:



			Lol it certainly isnâ€™t - my FB just talks about dogs ðŸ˜„
		
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ðŸ˜‚ that's because you are a crazy dog lady


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## Clodagh (28 September 2019)

dree said:



			I am removing myslelf from this forum.  No doubt Levrier, and others, will be delighted.  From the moment I typed a post on here the "atmosphere", for want of a better word, has been antagonistic, negative, almost toxic.  I don't need that in my life.  All my posts seem to have been about replying to certain people over their sarcasm and their seeming belief that they "own" this forum.....or this part of it.  I would like to say it's been a pleasure, but it's been anything but.  I wish the genuine people on here the very best.  For myself, life is too short for what has been, it seems, a constant battle.  I have other battles to fight, like the one for my health.  This negativity, as I said in a previous post, is what can drive someone over the edge.  I'm not one of them.  But in a day and age when suicide rates are high, people really should think twice before they reply with sarcastic and often downwright nasty posts.
		
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JUst use UI for people you don't want to engage with.


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## Clodagh (28 September 2019)

dree said:



			Could someone please look at post 146 and tell me how that makes me a troll?  I'm serious here.
		
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It doesn't.


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## Blazingsaddles (28 September 2019)

dree said:



			I am removing myslelf from this forum.  No doubt Levrier, and others, will be delighted.  From the moment I typed a post on here the "atmosphere", for want of a better word, has been antagonistic, negative, almost toxic.  I don't need that in my life.  All my posts seem to have been about replying to certain people over their sarcasm and their seeming belief that they "own" this forum.....or this part of it.  I would like to say it's been a pleasure, but it's been anything but.  I wish the genuine people on here the very best.  For myself, life is too short for what has been, it seems, a constant battle.  I have other battles to fight, like the one for my health.  This negativity, as I said in a previous post, is what can drive someone over the edge.  I'm not one of them.  But in a day and age when suicide rates are high, people really should think twice before they reply with sarcastic and often downwright nasty posts.
		
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Donâ€™t leave. Iâ€™m sure there are many posters who enjoy your posts but are reluctant to post their support for fear of becoming involved in petty squabbles. I, for one, have never thought that you were a troll. Years ago on this forum the ultimate put down was to be accused of being a bunny hugger, now it seems the word Troll is thrown at posters if others disagree with their posts. As Clodagh says put them on UI. ðŸ™‚


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## dree (28 September 2019)

Clodagh said:



			It doesn't.
		
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Thank-you.


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## dree (28 September 2019)

DabDab said:



			There's no need to flounce. You clearly care deeply about your dogs and are a knowledgeable dog owner with a good deal of experience. so it would be great to have you on here.

The only reason that you've had people responding to you fairly robustly is that your tone, on this thread and others, comes across as patronising, like you're trying to educate the simpletons, which obviously tends to get people's backs up. But I'm sure your posting style will settle and make it easier for you to get your opinion across - like you say you're not used to these forums yet
		
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Thank-you.  I do not intend to be patronising.


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## Blanche (28 September 2019)

Do flounce if you feel the need, you're not the first. I agree with DabDab that you are very patronising etc. You pissed me off no end when your ire was directed at everyone and two people in particular. You appear to be someone who winds people up and then acts all offended when they bite back. I would not come to you for dog advice as it comes across to me that you're energy is very dominant and I wouldn't want that. I would go to the two (Lev and CC) you seemed to have taken exception to.  I have taken tips on dog training from all over, including the Generation Game( I think. Larry and Bruce were hosts) which I still use to this day. I don't know what you are like irl but you need to chill out a bit if you want to get your message across here.


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## splashgirl45 (28 September 2019)

DREE......it must be wonderful to be so very perfect all of the time.  not all dogs can be  trained by food.....my lurcher would not touch any sort of treat as a reward, chicken, tuna, ham, you name it i tried it.   please try and see that all dogs are different and  when i am walking someone else's dog when they are ill and said dog is a large ruffian, i will use a choke collar as an aid to stop myself being dragged across the road and keep both of us safe....   you dont seem to live in the real world IMO,  and yes your posts have been very patronising to those of us who have had well trained dogs all of our long lives...and compared to other dogs collies are very easy on the whole, cant understand why yours are not...


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## Clodagh (28 September 2019)

I must admit, even my greedy labs won't eat if there is a retrieve as an alternative.
I hate choke chains.  Mind you I hate halti things even more.
Also, training a dog to work at a distance can't be done with food.


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## Clodagh (28 September 2019)

There's been an awful lot of vitriol directed at Dree though, she has never been personally rude to anyone, just rather arrogant perhaps.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (28 September 2019)

Clodagh said:



			There's been an awful lot of vitriol directed at Dree though, she has never been personally rude to anyone, just rather arrogant perhaps.
		
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A bit more than arrogant Clodagh,  I haven't used UI for a very long time, got fed up of pointy stick retaliation repeatedly........
(Same vein of posting on the WW's thread too, to anyone not agreeing to their point of view).


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## Sandstone1 (28 September 2019)

For goodness sake,  this is ridiculous.   I can't see that anyone is a troll.  Everyone is allowed their own opinion.  Yes I think some posters have commented just to get a reaction and yes I do feel that their are certain people here who are very opinionated and like to think they are experts.
dog training seems to be a very emotive subject.   Personally I prefer a kinder approach.  You don't have to use food for it to be positive.  It Can be verbal praise, physical praise even a toy there is something every dog finds rewarding its just finding it.
I can't see the need for anyone to leave.
Just don't be intimidated by people who think that because they have posted on here for ever that they have the right to rule the roost.
They don't, this is a open forum and anyone can post what they like within reason.


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## splashgirl45 (28 September 2019)

exactly this sandstone 1, i also prefer kinder methods but   there are many ways to train and we can all learn from each other, it is just irritating when one method is stated that it is the only method, without allowing for the difference in dog types , and assuming the rest of us are being cruel if we dont use a clicker and treats....


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## Indy (28 September 2019)

I suppose you just have to find that one thing your dog will do anything for. My dog would deliver Brexit if he thought he'd get a  game of ball out of it.


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## dree (28 September 2019)

splashgirl45 said:



			exactly this sandstone 1, i also prefer kinder methods but   there are many ways to train and we can all learn from each other, it is just irritating when one method is stated that it is the only method, without allowing for the difference in dog types , and assuming the rest of us are being cruel if we dont use a clicker and treats....
		
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Can I just comment on this.  (And before I go any further, I don't assume that you are cruel if you don't use a clicker and treats.)  Yes, every dog is different.  But, imo, every dog is much the same as well.  To explain that.....I have a collie, so can I presume that I can use clicker trainng....usually yes.  Same with a Terv or most working dogs.  Terriers are harder, but still greedy sods.  So from the get go, I have to understand that to dogs the main things that are important in their lives are:- reproduction (very important to them for the survival of their species....they don't know we've got that under control...., but sorry guys and gals, you are not going to mate your best buddy as a reward for a behaviour! )  Food, for survival also.  Most dogs (not all) like food....but some may not be too interested.  So I up the rating of that food.  From kibble....low value, to cooked black pudding.....high value.  (I have about ten foods rated from 1 - 10.)  I also though, do not use food for a long time (which is possibly a misconception that I have allowed to perpetuate).......unless the dog is so food orientated that playing with a toy is not high on it's agenda.  What I'm trying to say is that I give the dog the reward that *the dog* picks......not the one that I assume it will pick.

In the end, what I want is a dog that will work *for me*.....yes, it gets it's reward at the end of the session.  But an experienced 'C' or Ticket dog will do about 5 mins of h/w, a sendaway,, a retrieve, and distance control for no reward while it is in the ring.....and it will be happy to do so.  (I do not do this in training.....but it happens in the ring.)

Can I also explain *how* I get a "stubborn" dog to work.  An example.....I had a Terv.....very clever.....and I had just started clicker training.  I could get her to work for her tennis ball.....but as soon as I took that tennis ball away....even if it was in a pocket....her h/w became flat and uninterested.  One day (we were training with a group, all doing our own thing) a friend asked me what was wrong as I had a break and a cuppa.  I explained about Lana.  Ok, she said, let's wait until nearly everyone has gone and then we'll train her.  She explained what we were going to do.  I'll be honest, I was doubtful....very doubtful.  Anyway, off we went.....me with Lana on the lead and Sandra with the tennis ball.  I take the lead off Lana and immediately Lana is dancing around Sandra.....gimme the ball, gimme the ball, gimme, gimme, gimme.  In the meantime I was walking around on my own, as if we were doing h/w, my hand in the h/w position, which Lana knew and recognised.  I can't remember how long we did this.....I felt like a right idiot and was almost on the point of saying......See, said it wouldn't work....when Lana started to look at me and then back at Sandra who was throwing the ball a few feet in the air and catching it again and again....Lana did this a few times, looking back and forth....and then she joined me in the h/w position.  I immediately clicked and Sandra threw the ball.  We did this a few more times and each time, Lana joined me quicker and with purpose, and we extended the h/w a little, clicked her and Sandra threw the ball.  That session totally turned me around into a clicker trainer.  (Although I will admit I am not a "purist" clicker trainer, waiting for a behaviour....although on that day that was exactly what I was!! lol)  But what stuck in my brain that day was what Sandra said.  I'd said....she's a Terv, off working lines, why can't I get her?  And she replied....she's a dog.  What if you had picked her up in the pound and had no idea what breed she was?  She's still a dog.  A dog is a dog is a dog. * You have to find out what turns your dog on.....whether it's treats, a ball, a flirt pole, etc., etc.  *

I would add how I teach my dogs (and other people's dogs) to work for nothing, but I think that's enough for the mo.  If I've bored you rigid, my apologies!!


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## dree (28 September 2019)

Indy said:



			I suppose you just have to find that one thing your dog will do anything for. My dog would deliver Brexit if he thought he'd get a  game of ball out of it.
		
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And would be popular with the people of the land!! lol


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## splashgirl45 (28 September 2019)

thankyou DREE for giving me a lesson on how to train.......the tone of your post was once again talking to me like i am a child who knows nothing about dogs....and yes i did read it all and yes i was bored.......


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## dree (28 September 2019)

splashgirl45 said:



			thankyou DREE for giving me a lesson on how to train.......the tone of your post was once again talking to me like i am a child who knows nothing about dogs....and yes i did read it all and yes i was bored.......

Click to expand...

Sorry, I am too used to people wanting every detail, because if I don't explain it in detail, they come back with lots of questions.  This is obviously not the place for me.  And it was meant to be a draft, but I got that bit wrong too.


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## Dobiegirl (28 September 2019)

Who remembers Cayla, who was often on here and had a whole wealth of knowledge and she imparted that with great humour and self deprecation. if you wanted to know anything she was your girl, she was blunt at times,called a spade a spade but was one of the most popular posters on here.

I know she is not on here now because the daft bat lost her password but she is a personal friend and I have learnt many things she didnt put on here as she would regard it as boasting, she never blew her own trumpet and she helped many people on here with their problems.

I think what Im trying to say is its not what you know but how you address people, perhaps Dree stop taking yourself so seriously and say what you want to say but not in a preachy way.


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## {97702} (28 September 2019)

Hmmmph.... Cayla gave me Amy.... say no more..... ðŸ˜³ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## DabDab (28 September 2019)

Not remotely related to the thread, but on the subject of dogs (not) performing in a ring...

I don't show/compete dogs, but I was once talked into taking Dee into a sausage eating competition at one of these fun dog shows. This is a dog that can't be fed kibble because she swallows the whole of her meagre ration in 30 seconds without chewing a single piece, and would frankly trade me in exchange for a sausage, so this seemed like a class we could really excel at. We were in the ring with the other competitors, and she was excitedly looking at me and the sausage wagging her tail furiously. The whistle went and I gave her the sausage....she gingerly took it off me, placed it on the floor and NIBBLED it . All the other competitors stood staring at us, waiting for Dee to finish her sausage. I left the ring in fits of laughter vowing never to darken the floor of a fun dog show ring again, with my OH on the floor in hysterics.


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## SAujla (29 September 2019)

I like to read a lot of the threads on here, but I think there is a problem with passion taking over and the main point of the thread being missed. It isn't about people having different opinions its how those opinions are put across, its hard if not impossible to convey tone and exact meaning in words other people read. Trolling is an emotive word and I feel a troll is someone who actively goes out of their way to put others down, which nobody on here does. 

If you own a dog, cat or any animal, and take the time to go onto a forum and talk about it then I feel you have the right intentions with your pet, otherwise if you didn't you wouldn't be bothered to talk about it. As long as you are providing the basics in terms of food, shelter and companionship everything else should be fluid and designed to work for the personality and needs of your animal. 

Everyone on here loves animals, that should be enough of a foundation to promote healthy positive discussions.


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## Sandstone1 (29 September 2019)

Why can't Dree post what she likes how she likes?  Don't read it if you find it boring.  I've been told to check my facts before posting recently.  Actually those facts are facts and as I answered I will post what I like anyway.  As long as you are not bullying or being abusive its a open forum.  If I want to post about fluffy kittens and pink ponies I will and if you don't like it just ignore it.  Everyone can answer and debate if they feel like it but how dare people try to police the forum just because they don't like what's said.


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## DabDab (29 September 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			Why can't Dree post what she likes how she likes?  Don't read it if you find it boring.  I've been told to check my facts before posting recently.  Actually those facts are facts and as I answered I will post what I like anyway.  As long as you are not bullying or being abusive its a open forum.  If I want to post about fluffy kittens and pink ponies I will and if you don't like it just ignore it.  Everyone can answer and debate if they feel like it but how dare people try to police the forum just because they don't like what's said.
		
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Well sure, anyone can post whatever they like as long as it doesn't break forum t&cs, but equally others can then respond however they like to that person. If you post something antagonizing (and most of us have at some point or another), then you cannot moan if other posters respond in kind. It has nothing to do with forum police, that's just the way life works. And ironically, you instructing people to ignore things is the most forum policey thing on this thread so far.

(Btw, I would love to read a thread combining fluffy kittens and pink ponies)


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## skinnydipper (29 September 2019)

It is disappointing that someone who was doing their best to share their knowledge and expertise has been made to feel so bad that they are leaving the forum.

I always appreciate it when people share their knowledge, I am thinking particularly of the advice CC and Gunnergundog gave me recently.

I know Clodagh should not have to train her stepson's dog, he should take responsibility for that, but the advice Dree gave was good. "capture" the time the dog isn't barking, reward and name the behaviour, for example the cue "quiet".  It is easier said than done which is why people resort to a quick fix.

I didn't respond to the thread because Clodagh was asking for opinions on bark collars and it would come as no surprise to anyone on the forum that I don't like them for all the reasons other posters have already highlighted.

On another thread GSD Woman asked for help with her dog as using a "squirt" bottle had done nothing to change the dog's behaviour (aversives suppress behaviour they don't teach the dog an alternative behaviour). She wasn't overwhelmed with training tips.

I was hoping for advice on keeping my youngster from barking on this thread. She does it when I'm outside with all of the dogs. The only thing that makes any difference is using a squirt bottle, which I hate and is inconvenient when I'm working in the yard. (That's garden for y'all.)
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...orted-for-barking.780383/#grzL8ddGqIycfsRj.99

It is kind of Dree to take the time to share her experience. I am always happy to learn of ways to engage with my dog and welcome training tips.


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## dogatemysalad (29 September 2019)

Having loosely followed this thread, some of drees posts have been informative and helpful along with the advice from some other posters. I'm not not sure why she has been singled out by some people. Surely, it's possible to share different experiences and opinions without being made to feel unwelcome?


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## Moobli (29 September 2019)

I think one of the biggest problems on a forum is there is no way to hear the  tone, seeing facial expressions etc so itâ€™s easy to take things the wrong way if you feel that way inclined.  Dree has a more formal sounding tone in her posts to my eye, and that may be just the way she writes/expresses herself but I never took the posts as patronising or even particularly argumentative.
Live and let live.  The forum would be a very dull place if we all agreed all of the time.


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## Indy (29 September 2019)

I found Dree's training post quite interesting and not boring or condescend and I've had family dogs all my life from way back when choke chain and leads were rthe only lead and Pedigree Chum and Chappie were the only dog food. They were just family pet dogs, not trained gun dogs or top class obedience dogs or agility dogs or sniffer dogs just family pet dogs.   Thinking back there was never a need for antibark collars or e collars or fancy training methods and all our dogs lived longhappily family pet dog life's although the labrador we had was a pain in the arse but then so was my older brother. My dog now is brill, he's clever and funny and can be daft. His recall is brill, lead walking ok, doesn't suffer any anxiety over anything, doesn't guard his food and barks when he gets giddy and he's never had any real formal training, he's just a family pet dog. He lives for his ball. If there was a fire and he could save me or his ball. The ball would win every time!  

I've been on this forum a long old time and I remember Cayla. She was clever and funny, interesting and knowledgeable, forthright and had a lot of commonsense. She was never nasty, rude and arrogant, it's a pity she isn't still here she could train some forum members.

Anyway this post is long and probably boring to some so I'll leave it there.



#sorrynotsorry


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## Sandstone1 (29 September 2019)

DabDab said:



			Well sure, anyone can post whatever they like as long as it doesn't break forum t&cs, but equally others can then respond however they like to that person. If you post something antagonizing (and most of us have at some point or another), then you cannot moan if other posters respond in kind. It has nothing to do with forum police, that's just the way life works. And ironically, you instructing people to ignore things is the most forum policey thing on this thread so far.

(Btw, I would love to read a thread combining fluffy kittens and pink ponies)
		
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I'm not instructing anyone.   All I'm saying is if you don't like how someone posts move on.  There is a difference between a lively debate and bullying.


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## Sandstone1 (29 September 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			I'm not instructing anyone.   All I'm saying is if you don't like how someone posts move on.  There is a difference between a lively debate and bullying.
		
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The way some people responded to Dree  has been at times on the verge of bullying.
she seems knowledgeable but because her views don't fit with other people's she's been singled out.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (29 September 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			The way some people responded to Dree  has been at times on the verge of bullying.
she seems knowledgeable but because her views don't fit with other people's she's been singled out.
		
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Not quite right there Sandstone,  that poster quoted me incorrectly, then despite me pointing out that they were wrong, still insisted they had indeed read my post and censured me.
I've blocked them,  only the 2nd time I've done so, as there was just the insistence that they were correct,  which at best was exasperating and at worst was downright rude.
Very similar autocratic responses from that poster on the WWs thread too, overall its rather unpleasant in my opinion and unwarranted.
I'll toddle out of this part of the forum I think, its definitely quite combative and more so than other sections.


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## YorksG (29 September 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			The way some people responded to Dree  has been at times on the verge of bullying.
she seems knowledgeable but because her views don't fit with other people's she's been singled out.
		
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I think some of the responses to Dree are also influenced by her *very *rude one on the WW thread, which I would think, annoyed a number of people, I certainly considered them rude and hectoring.


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## Sandstone1 (29 September 2019)

I don't think I saw the W W  thread. Anyway I've just noticed that the Dog section of this forum seems to more unfriendly and even bitchy.


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## dree (29 September 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Not quite right there Sandstone,  that poster quoted me incorrectly, then despite me pointing out that they were wrong, still insisted they had indeed read my post and censured me.
I've blocked them,  only the 2nd time I've done so, as there was just the insistence that they were correct,  which at best was exasperating and at worst was downright rude.
Very similar autocratic responses from that poster on the WWs thread too, overall its rather unpleasant in my opinion and unwarranted.
I'll toddle out of this part of the forum I think, its definitely quite combative and more so than other sections.
		
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My replies on the WW thread was in defense of WW, if I remember correctly.  Why on earth those comments relate to this one is a bit beyond me.  

You've toddled off.  Well, something good has come out of this thread then.


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## Blazingsaddles (29 September 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			I don't think I saw the W W  thread. Anyway I've just noticed that the Dog section of this forum seems to more unfriendly and even bitchy.
		
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Agree. Itâ€™s like a pack of dogs (bitches?) cornering their prey at times...ðŸ˜Ÿ


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## dree (29 September 2019)

This comment was made on the WWS thread when I said something and then disappeared.......


amymay said:



			I think she must be back in the shower....
		
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This is, I believe, *after* I stated that I was in a wheelchair at the mo.  (I didn't say that for sympathy, just an explanation.) But then a very sensitive person posted the above.  Very adult.

And this is the sort of thing I said:- "


dree said:



			They're being cared for as well as is possible when you have 40 of them!! She's doing a better job than the Rspca would have done, that's for sure. I've watched their "care" and it's sheer neglect. Allowing all but 7 of the Coney Lane horses starve to death in a yard they put them in!!! They make me spit with hatred.
		
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So there you are.  Been on two threads and lambasted on both.


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## dree (29 September 2019)

YorksG said:



			I think some of the responses to Dree are also influenced by her *very *rude one on the WW thread, which I would think, annoyed a number of people, I certainly considered them rude and hectoring.
		
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That would be a post where I had an opinion different from yours?  Rude and hectoring, really?  I'd been on this forum for two minutes and was inundated with posts that were rude and nasty.  What a lovely place this is!!


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## dree (29 September 2019)

Anyway, onwards and upwards.  Anyone want to know how to teach something?


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## Leo Walker (30 September 2019)

dree said:



			My replies on the WW thread was in defense of WW, if I remember correctly.  Why on earth those comments relate to this one is a bit beyond me.
		
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Because it shows an appalling lack of judgment which sits somewhat at odds with the detailed advice you've given on here. I lean much more heavily towards positive training methods so would be inclined to agree with a lot of what you have said, yet I found it hard to due to the way in which it was delivered.


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## dree (30 September 2019)

Leo Walker said:



			Because it shows an appalling lack of judgment which sits somewhat at odds with the detailed advice you've given on here. I lean much more heavily towards positive training methods so would be inclined to agree with a lot of what you have said, yet I found it hard to due to the way in which it was delivered.
		
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Whatever.  Just roll on by.


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## skinnydipper (30 September 2019)

dree said:



			Whatever.  Just roll on by.
		
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Please do not continue this, I regret getting involved.


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## Tiddlypom (30 September 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Clip clop
		
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A reminder of post #31, folks .


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## {97702} (30 September 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			A reminder of post #31, folks .
		
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Funny how I got lambasted when I said she was trolling.....ðŸ™„


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## dree (30 September 2019)

Leo Walker said:



			Because it shows an appalling lack of judgment which sits somewhat at odds with the detailed advice you've given on here. I lean much more heavily towards positive training methods so would be inclined to agree with a lot of what you have said, yet I found it hard to due to the way in which it was delivered.
		
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An appalling lack of judgement......according to whom?  The judges and juries on this forum?


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## dree (30 September 2019)

Ok, let's draw a line under this.  Finding myself replying in the very tone which I have myself criticised.  One tends to get drawn into the nastiness without realising it.  No more from me on this thread.  Someone start a new thread where we can all join in without any nastiness.


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## dree (30 September 2019)

skinnydipper said:



			Please do not continue this, I regret getting involved.
		
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Apologies, skinnydipper.  See above. xx


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