# Competition legal pain killer



## rowy (27 August 2014)

My mare was diagnosed with arthritis type symptoms in both hind pasterns. 
She only just turned 5 years old this year and I was hoping to do dressage with her. 
The bony growth on hind pasterns is quite advanced and the vet said there is nothing they can do but that we can continue riding her and schooling etc. either on bute or otherwise. 

For a while she went sound and I started training and competing again. First two competitions went really well and judges didn't notice anything and she felt good but as the ground got harder she started getting slightly lame again and at the last competition the Judge noticed and marked her 5-8% lower than she would of done otherwise because of it. 
(This is only at prelim level). 

I have heard good things about vetrofen but thought I would ask what you have found best as all these supplements are expensive.


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## Nugget La Poneh (27 August 2014)

Sorry, but you have to question the morals of competing a horse on supplements or drugs that mask lameness.

However, it is possible to alter the management of the horse to give it the best possible chance of being able to compete lightly (or more, possibly) without the need to cover up an issue. Including treating as if insulin resistant. Vetrofen does seem to work for people that I know have used it, but their horses were just a bit stiff, and not picked up by judges.If at 5 your horse is lame with arthritis, some decisions might need to be made about it's competition future.
What do the vets recommended in terms of supplements?


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## Darkwater (27 August 2014)

I feed my arthritic mare vetroflex (I think - the joint supplement, not the bute alternative. I always get them mixed up!) and she is doing really well, I can see a real difference since starting to use it. She isn't sound, but it is mechanical lameness, she isn't in pain and she isn't getting worse even now she's back in work. If anything she looks better than before she was first diagnosed.

I have used vetrofen as well, for other problems, as she can't have real bute (history of ulcers) and I think it does help a bit, at least in the short term, but I didn't use it with her lameness as she was only lame when ridden so we just pulled her shoes off I turned her away to see if she came sound. Nothing you can buy over the counter is ever going to be as strong and effective as bute, so if you need her on bute to keep her sound its unlikely any joint supplement / bute alternative will help on its own -  I  personally wouldn't be riding a horse that needs bute anyway, and definitely not competing it - but if you need something to keep her comfortable then maybe a decent joint supplement along side her bute so you can give it chance to work?

You will probably also find that vetrofen is just as expensive, if not more so, than bute anyway - I did! If you want something safer than bute to feed long term, then it might be worth a try, but I always find with things like that it is okay for keeping them sound, once they are sound, but you might need bute to get her to a good comfortable level first. I agree with the poster above though, I would be questioning whether keeping a lame five year old on pain killers of any kind permanently is the best solution.


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## be positive (27 August 2014)

I agree with NLP the mare is only 5 so not likely to have much of a career as a dressage horse, I would be thinking longer term and trying to find an alternative use for her where she may cope better rather than trying to get her to suit you, a good home as a hack would be my ideal scenario where she will not be expected to use herself in such a way that is causes pain and she may have a longer useful life. 
Using the odd bute to control stiffness on a day after an event would not bother me, certainly in an older horse used to enable it to have an active life would be no problem, but to use something on such a young horse with what is possibly a fairly extensive and degenerative condition to enable it to be sound enough for a very basic dressage test does not sit well with me.


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## ester (27 August 2014)

I think you will mostly need to be careful what surfaces she is worked on and do enough to keep her moving but not make her worse- I wonder if the schooling you started to do again once she was sound contributed to her going lame again as well as the ground and that she may only cope with hacking. I don't know if injections are a possibility for her, I presume that was something your vets discussed.


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## Wheels (27 August 2014)

I really feel for you having such a young horse in this situation.  But, I'm in the same camp as another couple of posters on this thread that I wouldn't be competing this horse or doing very many exercises that were going to make things worse. She may only ever be a hack, really time for you to be strong and think about what will help the horse however hard that is. (Meant in the nicest possible way!)


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## rowy (27 August 2014)

I spoke to the vet and he said keeping her in light work is good to keep her more supple and her lameness decreases with work. 
I did find that I think it might be the surface at the place we compete at that makes her worse because it is quite hard and our surface at home is made of foam so is a lot more forgiving. She just seems stiffer when at the competition venue. 

I wouldn't be competing her intensively. After hearing the news about her I bought myself a new dressage youngster but it just seems such a waste at only 5 years to just be turned away and retire. Selling her is not an option after hearing some horrible stories of retired or semi retired horses being sold on as competition horses and she's such a lovely mare. 

The vet did mention having her as a breeding mare (by embryo transfer only!!!!) is another possibility but I'm getting married in just over a year so We are trying to save for a house so don't want to spend £££ on breeding currently. This is why I thought about lightly schooling her for the next 1-2 years and doing the odd competition.


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## ester (27 August 2014)

I think you need to carefully determine the level of light work that suits her, and that may just be hacking,  I think we underestimate the pressure that circles can place on joints.


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## Supanova (27 August 2014)

Has the vet tried any type of treatment?  Steroid injections ?  IRAP?  Tildren?


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## Nugget La Poneh (27 August 2014)

I would avoid breeding her, the extra weight while carrying the foal will not be condusive to a sound pregnancy, and there is the risk the arthritis is hereditary, or certainly the predisposition to it.

Maybe turn her away for a year, no shoes, on a joint supporting supplement (turmeric, pepper and oil seems to get rave reviews) and review it. If it hasn't progressed, then that might be an indicator it can all be managed so you could do some low level dressage.


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## Capriole (27 August 2014)

Embryo transfer won't put any weight on her joints NLP 

Saying that, I would think it would be cost prohibitive anyway unless she is an exceptional broodmare candidate.  Since your vet suggested breeding I'm assuming the lameness isn't caused be an hereditary factor though?  I wouldn't breed from her anyway.

I think since she's lame competing at this level, that the light work level she can take is being exceeded ands you might need to rethink what you do with her.


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## rowy (27 August 2014)

The vet said he would not breed from her but if I did an embryo transfer from another mare then she would be able to carry a foal no problem. I would no way breed from her genes as I wouldn't want to pass on the genes in case they are hereditary. 

Vet said joint injection is a possibility only for pain management rather than to stop the bone deposition progress. 

Thinking about getting someone who wants to happy hack her? She has such a lovely personality and character.


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## Capriole (27 August 2014)

Sorry I thought you meant transfer from her to another mare.  No, in that case I agree with NLP!  Wouldn't put weight on her unnecessarily.  I was coming at it from the point of view of if it's non hereditary you could take an embryo FROM her.


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## Nugget La Poneh (27 August 2014)

Capriole said:



			Embryo transfer won't put any weight on her joints NLP 

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I know, but the post read as if she was going to carry the foal.


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## Capriole (27 August 2014)

I read it the other way round, lol!  Still, it's a lot of £££ for ET anyway and there's a lot of more suitable  brood mares out there anyway, no need to use a lame mare IMO. If the mare and bloodlines were exceptional I could perhaps see the point of taking embryos from her, which is why I came at it from the angle I did.

Sorry, going off topic a bit here, OP.


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## CBAnglo (27 August 2014)

I think I would retire her to light hacking - you have another to compete so I would concentrate on that.  

Are you feeding her a good joint supplement?  Mine is on superflex and cortaflex and this combination seems to work the best (although is not cheap).

My concern would be that at 5 she is still growing so this problem may become worse.  I was in the exact position as you, my dressage horse that I had from a 4 yr old was diagnosed with arthritis in the upper hock at 6.  All plans went out of the window overnight.  I was told to pts (and claim insurance money) but as I had another to ride, instead I decided to retire him.  Tried IRAP and steroids and nothing worked but he was paddock sound for about 2 yrs.  With careful management he started looking a bit better and I started lightly hacking him a couple of times a week which he loves.  He is now 12, but I don't see his hocks holding out much longer.  He is given one sachet of danilon a day in the worst of the winter and lives out until the mud is too bad, and then he is turned out as much as possible during the day and bandaged overnight.  I wouldn't dream of schooling in a school ever again, but every so often on hacks he does show off his tricks (mostly canter halfpass as he naps from whatever is hiding in the bushes) and I do regret all the things we didn't get to do together (but I am so glad that I still have him).


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## TheoryX1 (27 August 2014)

OP, as others have said, if she is arthritic at such a young age, then her competition career should be questioned, however, as you say, you have another to compete, so end of subject.  On the subject of arthritis though, have you considered using Synequin?  I have a golden oldie of 21, who has just been diagnosed with starting arthritic changes in his right hock, neck and left knee (yep, have xrays to prove it), and he is halfway through a four week programme of injections (working!), and is on Synequin.  We are still loading the dose into him and its like he is a new horse.  OK, some of that may well be because he has responded well to the injections, but I started him on glucosamine about 4 years ago and the difference was amazing.

He is so much better now that the diagnosis has gone from retirement and new horse for me, to still being able to ride him gently and new horse for me.  I do hope you manage to sort this out and make her comfortable, as I have seen first hand just how much pain arthritis causes them.  When he had his first flare up about 5 weeks ago in very hot weather, he was unable to move.  I sat in his stable while I waited for the vet and he put his chin on my head and all I could hear was him screamiing in pain in my head.  Sorry to digress, and I know not everyone agrees with stuff like this, but my goodness that poor little horse really suffered.  Hope she is feeling more comfortable soon.


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## ihatework (27 August 2014)

For the cost to you to keep her as a surrogate and ET mare you might as well just go out and buy a foal of the bloodlines you want.

Surrogates are usually loaned out to those with competition mares and as you said you didn't want to loan her out I assume this is not what you meant by your post? However it is a potential job for her and I would follow vets advice on her soundness and suitability for this.

In all honesty I wouldn't be looking to compete her if judges are picking up soundness issues. I'd inject joints and retire her to light hacking duties providing she is happy working. Consider using cartrophen and I wouldn't dismiss the odd sachet of bute if needed.


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## CBAnglo (27 August 2014)

CBAnglo said:



			I think I would retire her to light hacking - you have another to compete so I would concentrate on that.  

Are you feeding her a good joint supplement?  Mine is on superflex and cortaflex and this combination seems to work the best (although is not cheap).

My concern would be that at 5 she is still growing so this problem may become worse.  I was in the exact position as you, my dressage horse that I had from a 4 yr old was diagnosed with arthritis in the upper hock at 6.  All plans went out of the window overnight.  I was told to pts (and claim insurance money) but as I had another to ride, instead I decided to retire him.  Tried IRAP and steroids and nothing worked but he was paddock sound for about 2 yrs.  With careful management he started looking a bit better and I started lightly hacking him a couple of times a week which he loves.  He is now 12, but I don't see his hocks holding out much longer.  He is given one sachet of danilon a day in the worst of the winter and lives out until the mud is too bad, and then he is turned out as much as possible during the day and bandaged overnight.  I wouldn't dream of schooling in a school ever again, but every so often on hacks he does show off his tricks (mostly canter halfpass as he naps from whatever is hiding in the bushes) and I do regret all the things we didn't get to do together (but I am so glad that I still have him).
		
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Sorry that should have read superflex and cosequin!  I have tried almost every joint supplement in the last 6 years and this combination appears to work the best.  But not cheap - Cosequin is about £100 a month per horse (2 on this), no idea how much the superflex works out at as I buy 9.6kg tubs and they are for 3 horses (all at the maximum dosage).  Needless to say he costs me more now than he did when he was in full work!


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## Fides (27 August 2014)

It's both illegal and immoral


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## Tiddlypom (27 August 2014)

Why is the vet so 'meh' about steroid injections? They can settle the inflammation and reduce the amount of further new bone deposited. I would be pushing for this if possible.


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## Supanova (27 August 2014)

Tiddlypom said:



			Why is the vet so 'meh' about steroid injections? They can settle the inflammation and reduce the amount of further new bone deposited. I would be pushing for this if possible.
		
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This ^^  The vet is right that steroids won't slow down bone deposits (although Tildren can so should be considered) but it can certainly settle down the inflammation.  I had a horse diagnosed with ringbone at a young age and a couple of steroid injections settled it for 3 years.  The arthritis certainly won't go away but there are lots and lots of horses competing with arthritic joints who are kept sound by a variety of treatments.  If you get to the point where you need them too often, then that is the time to call it a day but i think its definitely worth a shot?


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## rowy (27 August 2014)

This is what she has- ringbone. But on the pastern bones in her hind legs. 

She has already had a tildren which did help and the vet said to slowly increase her work which we have done. 

The vet said joint injections would be very difficult because of where the bone deposition and arthritic changes are


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## Capriole (27 August 2014)

What a crying shame.  Every sympathy for you Rowy.


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## Supanova (27 August 2014)

rowy said:



			This is what she has- ringbone. But on the pastern bones in her hind legs. 

She has already had a tildren which did help and the vet said to slowly increase her work which we have done. 

The vet said joint injections would be very difficult because of where the bone deposition and arthritic changes are
		
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Ok interesting.... i have never heard of the site of the arthritic change making a difference in relation to steroid injections but I am not a vet!!  If you have any doubts, it might be worth getting a second opinion?  I had 2 different vets to my horse and the approach in terms of outlook and management were scarily different!


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## rowy (27 August 2014)

Apparently pasterns are more difficult than hocks etc because I guess the joints are a lot smaller and more fiddly. 
The vet used the term "closing the door after the horse has bolted" because the arthritis is so far progressed. All it would do is act as a pain killer.


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## Tiddlypom (27 August 2014)

Is this low or high ringbone? I know of a horse which has responded well to steroid injections for high ringbone. It was tricky for the vet, as there was not much room, but she managed. That was a young horse, too.


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## Supanova (27 August 2014)

It was also the pastern with my mare and my vet never said anything about a difficulty with injecting. I understand that pasterns are quite commonly injected. I guess it may depend on how regularly the vet injects horses and how experienced they are.  I am also not really sure how steroids could ever been seen as "closing the door after the horse has bolted" because steroids will never ever fix arthiritis (infact they can quicken the bony changes), they are just helpful in managing pain and inflammation. 

Has your vet ever mentioned that the pastern may fuse over time?  I understand this can happen and at that point the pain goes away.


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## rowy (27 August 2014)

It's mid- high ring bone.


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## EmmaB (27 August 2014)

Such a shame for you to have this happen to such a young horse! 

Could you find a sharer who just wants to hack and enjoy her? That way she could be kept happy on bute and you wouldn't have to worry about someone over doing it with her.


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## Tiddlypom (27 August 2014)

rowy said:



			It's mid- high ring bone.
		
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I'd get a second opinion from an experienced equine vet. Your vet sounds unduly pessimistic in dismissing the steroid injections at this stage.


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## Goldenstar (27 August 2014)

I lost a young horse to ringbone too .
Nothing we did kept her comfortable it was heartbreaking she was very sweet as well OP you have my sympathy .


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## meesha (27 August 2014)

Sorry to hear about your mare, I was recommended equiflex nodolox I think it was called, tried it on my retired mare (massive sidebone) but made no difference but it is competition legal and other people rave about it.  I would question doing any schooling and maybe stick to light hacking but only you know your horse and what helps or hinders.


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## ester (27 August 2014)

steroid injections will never slow/reverse the bony changes. It will help with any local inflammation and pain (as vet has stated) and I am not sure why it has not be explored for it's pain killing abilities if the mare is not sound.


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## Fuzzypuff (28 August 2014)

Hugs rowy 
Have a look at Boswelia as I've heard of it doing great things for some horses. Also turmeric - see the turmeric user group on Facebook. I am sure you will be guided by your mare as to when things become too much for her.


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## lizziebell (28 August 2014)

ihatework said:



			For the cost to you to keep her as a surrogate and ET mare you might as well just go out and buy a foal of the bloodlines you want.
		
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Not to mention, that most ET procedures require you to have 2 recipient mares. So add keeping another mare to the cost!

I'd be looking at a quiet hacking life for her.


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## MagicMelon (28 August 2014)

ester said:



			I think you will mostly need to be careful what surfaces she is worked on and do enough to keep her moving but not make her worse- I wonder if the schooling you started to do again once she was sound contributed to her going lame again as well as the ground and that she may only cope with hacking. I don't know if injections are a possibility for her, I presume that was something your vets discussed.
		
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This. Maybe don't do any dressage that isn't on a surface?  And only school on one (which might rule out hacking on stony ground etc.)?  I personally would not compete a horse on bute but start trying the numerous joint supplements out there, I love NAF Superflex - it did wonders for one of mine. But as with any supplement, some work on some horses and not others so its probably not even worth people suggesting any - you just have to try them.


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