# Why it is unethical to use homeopathy on horses



## Danny Vet (15 December 2015)

A less than 2 minute read about why it is unethical to use homeopathy on animals- I hope you find this helpful!  

https://www.facebook.com/notes/dann...athy-in-less-than-2-minutes/10153732744522403


----------



## jrp204 (16 December 2015)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathy.shtml

Quite interesting, no one has claimed the Randi prize for proving homeopathy works.


----------



## ycbm (16 December 2015)

You need to explain that homeopathy does work for humans. It works because the average consultation is so hugely longer than conventional appointments with the doctors. In other words, it's a talking therapy. Animals can't talk, so it's unethical on animals. It's homeopathic medicine which is a placebo, but the feeling that someone is finally really listening to them cures a lot of people!


----------



## fatpiggy (16 December 2015)

Well it worked very well for my horse when I used it and my vet was perfectly well aware that I used it on her.  The practice where my cat goes has a homeopathic-trained MRCVS person too.  I was in the difficult position of having a horse with a lifelong problem which needed daily drugs which neatly blocked just about any other drug you could possibly want to use including important things like bute, so homeopathy was an option I had to try.  In Europe, many GPs have homeopathic training and use it routinely as my sister discovered when she lived in Germany. She was a sceptic too until she saw the results.


----------



## Danny Vet (16 December 2015)

fatpiggy said:



			Well it worked very well for my horse when I used it and my vet was perfectly well aware that I used it on her.  The practice where my cat goes has a homeopathic-trained MRCVS person too.  I was in the difficult position of having a horse with a lifelong problem which needed daily drugs which neatly blocked just about any other drug you could possibly want to use including important things like bute, so homeopathy was an option I had to try.
		
Click to expand...

Glad you saw an improvement in your horse.  Many long-term health problems have good weeks and bad weeks, they wax and wane, so sometimes when giving any treatment, including homeopathy, they appear to improve.  Anecdotal stories about times when treatments appeared to work can seem convincing but it is the reason that vets and doctors have to rely on evidenced based medicine which takes into account the well run clinical trials involving thousands of patients rather than their own personal experience.  

Did you read the article?


----------



## applecart14 (16 December 2015)

Homeopathy is based on the concept that diluting a version of a substance that causes illness has healing properties.  
Isn't this true of the flu vacinne that contains flu?  Or botox injections which contain botulism?  Who would claim that arnica that comes in tablet form, cream form, lotion form and just about every form that the horse goods manufacturers can use it in is unethical?

These are the top ten homeopathic remedies for humans and at some time during our lives I can bet that most of us have used one or more on either ourselves or our horses.

Allium cepa (onion): Because it is known to cause tearing of the eyes and dripping of the nose, it is a frequent remedy for the common cold and hay fever, especially when there is a thin, watery, and burning nasal discharge that irritates the nostrils. Typically, the person's symptoms are worse in a warm room and are relieved in a cool room or in the open air. 

Arnica (mountain daisy): This is the #1 remedy in sports medicine and first aid. It is used for shock and trauma from injury. It also helps to reduce pain from injury and to speed the healing process. Whether you're into competitive sports or exercise regularly or if you simply don't like to feel the pain of an injury, Arnica is the place to start. 

Chamomilla (chamomille): Many parents owe their sleep to homeopathy, not because it helps them directly, but because it is so good for their infant. Chamomilla is THE remedy for the irritable infant, especially from teething or colic. The infant cries incessantly, and nothing seems to provide any relief, except carrying them, and even then, the crying begins recurs as soon as the parent puts the child down. 

Hypericum (St. John's wort): This remedy is the first medicine to consider for injuries to the nerves or to parts of the body rich with them, including the fingers, toes, and back. Any injury with shooting pains should be given this remedy. 

Ignatia (St. Ignatius bean): One day this remedy will be used by the majority of psychiatrists. It is one of the leading homeopathic medicines for acute grief, anxiety, and depression, especially after a death or separation from a loved one. The person sighs frequently, has a lump in the throat, and may tremble. 

Magnesia phosphorica (phosphate of magnesia): This is the most effective remedy for cramps, including menstrual cramps. It has helped prevent many women turn from Dr. Jekkyl into Ms. Hyde as a result of menstrual cramps. It is particularly indicated when a woman's cramps cause her to bend over and when they experience some relief from warm applications. 

Nux vomica (poison nut): This is the premier medicine for ailments exacerbated by conventional or recreational drugs. It is also a common remedy for treating symptoms of overeating or from drinking too much alcohol. Considering how many people have these vices, this is an all too frequent medicine today. 

Pulsatilla (windflower): Perhaps the most commommon remedy given to both children and women, this medicine is not indicated for a specific disease but for a specific pattern of physical symptoms and psychological characteristics. Physically, these people are warm-blooded: they wear less clothes than others, prefer open air, and don't feel as well in the heat. Psychologically, they are a gentle, mind, and yielding person, with a quickly changing emotional state and a strong tendency to want to please others. 

Rhus tox (poison ivy): This medicine is the most common remedy for sprains and strains. It is especially indicated when a person experiences a "rusty gate" syndrome, that is, pain on initial motion which is reduced the more the person continues to move. It is also often given to people with the flu or arthritis who experience this similar rusty gate syndrome.


----------



## TGM (16 December 2015)

Herbal is not the same as homeopathy!


----------



## fatpiggy (16 December 2015)

Danny Vet said:



			Glad you saw an improvement in your horse.  Many long-term health problems have good weeks and bad weeks, they wax and wane, so sometimes when giving any treatment, including homeopathy, they appear to improve.  Anecdotal stories about times when treatments appeared to work can seem convincing but it is the reason that vets and doctors have to rely on evidenced based medicine which takes into account the well run clinical trials involving thousands of patients rather than their own personal experience.  

Did you read the article?
		
Click to expand...

I certainly didn't treat the long-term problem with homeopathy, that wouldn't have been a good idea as it was life-threatening.  The homeopathy was used for lymphangitis and insect bite reactions (I still use it on myself for the latter as I swell up like a balloon and it beats antihistamines into a cocked hat). So the response was seen within 3 or 4 hours.  No conventional treatment could be used apart from antibiotics.  On one occasion she had a bite somewhere which resulted in something that looked like a dog's scrotum hanging off her chest. 6 weeks later it hadn't changed a jot so I thought I'd try the homeopathy and within 2 days it was completely gone.


----------



## applecart14 (16 December 2015)

TGM said:



			Herbal is not the same as homeopathy!
		
Click to expand...

Who said it was?


----------



## JFTDWS (16 December 2015)

TGM said:



			Herbal is not the same as homeopathy!
		
Click to expand...

There's no point arguing with willful ignorance   Fwiw, I signed your petition, Danny.


----------



## stencilface (16 December 2015)

Our cat is on a homeopathic (could be herbal....) treatment as the vets basically had nothing they could do for him, and trying something is better than nothing. He essentially has the cat version of cushings as I understand it which is essentially unheard of in cats.


----------



## supsup (16 December 2015)

The fact is that homeopathic preparations at higher dilution levels (higher dilution, or "potency" is supposed to make them stronger) contain no more molecules of the original substance. That is very different from a vaccine, which contains a killed or weakened version of the virus in measurable amounts, so the body can form antibodies against the virus. The comparison just doesn't hold.
I am pretty sure that some of the apparent effectiveness when treating animals is also down to a transference of the placebo effect, i.e. the animal picks up on the human's state of mind/emotion and responds to it.

In any case, I wouldn't want to stop anybody from using homeopathy as a complementary treatment alongside conventional treatment if they so choose, and pay for the treatment themselves. I see danger where people will refuse their animals proven conventional treatment in favour of (unproven) homeopathy, or where the general population has to carry the cost of such treatment (as is the case with insurance paying for it in e.g. Germany).


----------



## Orca (16 December 2015)

supsup said:



			In any case, I wouldn't want to stop anybody from using homeopathy as a complementary treatment alongside conventional treatment if they so choose, and pay for the treatment themselves. I see danger where people will refuse their animals proven conventional treatment in favour of (unproven) homeopathy, or where the general population has to carry the cost of such treatment (as is the case with insurance paying for it in e.g. Germany).
		
Click to expand...

I won't sign the petition because denying the option of homeopathy removes peoples autonomy. I see that as 'unethical'. I'm cynical about homeopathy these days but I have seen and experienced it apparently working on numerous occasions. I had four home births with homeopathy and without conventional medicine - I'm prepared to accept that it may have had a placebo effect in those instances, yet I've seen it appear to work on children and animals too. So, if people would like to try homeopathy before conventional medicine, in non life threatening circumstances (in which case I'm sure most people would do whatever it takes, conventional or otherwise), I fully support that choice being available via and supported by their vet.


----------



## applecart14 (16 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			There's no point arguing with willful ignorance   Fwiw, I signed your petition, Danny.
		
Click to expand...

Err, excuse me is that directed at me?  What have I said which makes you think I am ignorant??? 

I didn't say herbal was the same as homeopathic.  Neither did I say i agreed or disagreed with it.  I have not researched it so I do not know.  I have used arnica and rhus tox on my horse before which I obtained from a Health Food Shop for various injuries.

Every remedy I have mentioned is classed as homeopathic.  Why do you say I am ignorant - please explain???


----------



## Cortez (16 December 2015)

I have recently helped a vet friend put down a young, pregnant mare that had been "treated" homoeopathically by her owner. In my opinion the owner should be prosecuted for wilful neglect and abuse. 

Herbal medicine (which used in the past to be just "medicine") can have therapeutic affects, homeopathy is a different thing altogether (read the information on the link. I have signed).


----------



## Orca (16 December 2015)

I don't think anyone has said that homeopathy and herbalism are the same thing?


----------



## Orca (16 December 2015)

applecart14 said:



			Err, excuse me is that directed at me?  What have I said which makes you think I am ignorant??? 

I didn't say herbal was the same as homeopathic.  Neither did I say i agreed or disagreed with it.  I have not researched it so I do not know.  I have used arnica and rhus tox on my horse before which I obtained from a Health Food Shop for various injuries.

Every remedy I have mentioned is classed as homeopathic.  Why do you say I am ignorant - please explain???
		
Click to expand...

I think maybe it's the crossover between herbalism and homeopathy which is causing confusion. Arnica (as you know but others might not) can be either a homeopathic or herbal remedy, for e.g. &#55357;&#56842;


----------



## Lucyad (16 December 2015)

Homeopathy is based on the concept that diluting a version of a substance that causes illness has healing properties.
		
Click to expand...

  To a degree where there is none of the substance actually left.



			Isn't this true of the flu vacinne that contains flu?
		
Click to expand...

 Yes, a flue vaccine contains flue.  A homeopathic remedy has none of the actual substance let - just water. 



			Or botox injections which contain botulism?
		
Click to expand...

 ditto. 



			Who would claim that arnica that comes in tablet form, cream form, lotion form and just about every form that the horse goods manufacturers can use it in is unethical?
		
Click to expand...

 No-one - on the basis that the tablets, creams etc. actually include some of the active ingredient - arnica.  Homeopathic arnica is diluted so much as to contain none of the active ingredients. Just expensive water, as far as I understand.


----------



## Cortez (16 December 2015)

The difference between herbalism and homeopathy is in the way in which the substance is administered. Herbalism, if you want to call it that, is also the basis of some modern medicines (aspirin, for instance).


----------



## TGM (16 December 2015)

applecart14 said:



			Who said it was?
		
Click to expand...

It was clear from your comments on arnica creams and lotions that you are confused between the two.  The arnica creams and lotions you can buy for horse and human are herbal, not homeopathic - ie they actually contain quantifiable amounts of arnica extract.


----------



## Orca (16 December 2015)

Cortez said:



			The difference between herbalism and homeopathy is in the way in which the substance is administered. Herbalism, if you want to call it that, is also the basis of some modern medicines (aspirin, for instance).
		
Click to expand...

It's been called that since the 1800s &#55357;&#56836; just going with the flow.


----------



## applecart14 (16 December 2015)

Orca said:



			I don't think anyone has said that homeopathy and herbalism are the same thing?
		
Click to expand...




TGM said:



			Herbal is not the same as homeopathy!
		
Click to expand...

It was directly after my reply.  So assumed directed at me? Never mind.  One thing this forum has taught me is to be thick skinned lol


----------



## laura_nash (16 December 2015)

Lucyad said:



			Homeopathic arnica is diluted so much as to contain none of the active ingredients. Just expensive water, as far as I understand.
		
Click to expand...

If homeopathic remedies are just expensive water (and I don't have a view either way really) then I can't see how it is un-ethical to use them on horses if the owners choose to.  Never heard of water doing any harm to a horse!  I can't read the original link (facebook blocked at work), maybe someone could explain?


----------



## applecart14 (16 December 2015)

TGM said:



			Herbal is not the same as homeopathy!
		
Click to expand...




laura_nash said:



			If homeopathic remedies are just expensive water (and I don't have a view either way really) then I can't see how it is un-ethical to use them on horses if the owners choose to.  Never heard of water doing any harm to a horse!  I can't read the original link (facebook blocked at work), maybe someone could explain?
		
Click to expand...

I think what people are getting at, is that it gives people false hope.  Its bad if people put off say chemotherapy in the hope that homeopathic will work instead.  When they eventually find out that it doesn't work (if this is the case) then it is far to late to go down the chemotherapy route.


----------



## laura_nash (16 December 2015)

applecart14 said:



			I think what people are getting at, is that it gives people false hope.  Its bad if people put off say chemotherapy in the hope that homeopathic will work instead.  When they eventually find out that it doesn't work (if this is the case) then it is far to late to go down the chemotherapy route.
		
Click to expand...

So the title should be that it is unethical to use homeopathy on horses instead of proven treatments for serious health issues if proven treatments exist?  If so then I agree, but not sure why homeopathy has been singled out as surely its the same for any un-proved therapy (whether alternative or conventional).


----------



## Lucyad (16 December 2015)

The water won't do the horse any harm, but the withholding of other treatment in the misguided belief that the water will fix a medical problem could be construed as unethical.  As could the fact that the vet has charged for what is, essentially water.


----------



## Booboos (16 December 2015)

Homeopathy has three beliefs:
-like cures like, e.g. if you have Ebola you should be given more Ebola
- water has memory, water retains a memory of substances it has come into contact with (imagine all the **** water remembers coming into contact with every time you drink a glass of water)
- the more you dilute a substance the stronger its effect, e.g. the famous homeopathic beer, one drop of beer in a pint of water can give you alcohol poisoning!

It is blatantly utter rubbish.

According to its own tenets it must come in water form, so, by definition, there are no things such as homeopathic tablets.


----------



## Danny Vet (16 December 2015)

laura_nash said:



			If homeopathic remedies are just expensive water (and I don't have a view either way really) then I can't see how it is un-ethical to use them on horses if the owners choose to.  Never heard of water doing any harm to a horse!  I can't read the original link (facebook blocked at work), maybe someone could explain?
		
Click to expand...

Hi Laura,

You are correct to say that the homeopathic remedies are ineffective so do no harm.  They can indirectly cause great harm because often they are given instead of a drug which has been proven to work.   SO for example, there is an effective treatment for Cushings disease in horses.  People who try to treat Cushings disease with what is effectively expensive water will no be treating the disease at all, the horse will eventually suffer and the owner's money will be wasted. 

But you're correct, the homeopathy itself won't do any harm, but the fact that people are led to believe that it can substitute for proper treatment is very sad.  I am sure that if the majority of people knew what homeopathy actually was they wouldn't even try it, but they get it confused with "natural" or "herbal" medicine, which it isn't. 

Here is the same Facebook article which has been published by another website so you can read it!  http://www.theonlinevet.co.uk/advic...-vets-using-homeopathy-in-less-than-2-minutes

The British Equine Veterinary Association (BEVA) are supporting this campaign.


----------



## Danny Vet (16 December 2015)

laura_nash said:



			So the title should be that it is unethical to use homeopathy on horses instead of proven treatments for serious health issues if proven treatments exist?  If so then I agree, but not sure why homeopathy has been singled out as surely its the same for any un-proved therapy (whether alternative or conventional).
		
Click to expand...

There are many unproven therapies, but homeopathy itself has been researched thoroughly and been proven to have no effect for any disease in humans beyond placebo.  This is why the NHS are looking at blacklisting it as it doesn't work and is a waste of taxpayers money. 

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/homeopathy/Pages/Introduction.aspx


----------



## Cortez (16 December 2015)

Danny Vet said:



			There are many unproven therapies, but homeopathy itself has been researched thoroughly and been proven to have no effect for any disease in humans beyond placebo.  This is why the NHS are looking at blacklisting it as it doesn't work and is a waste of taxpayers money. 

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/homeopathy/Pages/Introduction.aspx

Click to expand...

*Like*


----------



## chillipup (16 December 2015)

Thanks Danny..signed.  Just what is the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons reasoning to continue to permit vets to practice homeopathy on their patients?

The link below is a very recent example of how badly things can turn out....


www.vettimes.co.uk/news/mbe-vet-prosecuted-for-animal-cruelty/


----------



## spacefaer (16 December 2015)

I had an unrideable headshaker, diagnosed as having a pollen allergy.  He was prescribed homeopathic tablets by a vet, a combination of 6 to be taken daily - 4 lots to be taken every day, 2 to be taken twice a week. On this regime, he became rideable, with no headshaking and he evented to Advanced level.  If I ran out of one of the tablets, he began to get twitchy. If I stopped giving them to him, he became unrideable again.

No placebo as he didn't know he was taking them, and without them, he started headshaking within a very short time. Go figure....


----------



## Amicus (16 December 2015)

I don't understand homeopathy and can't see myself using it as it has no evidence but banning vets from using it seems more likely to create the situation of using homeopathy instead of conventional medicine rather then using homeopathy as a compliment or when conventional medicine can't be used due to drug interactions. As long as vets are honest about the lack of evidence I see no harm. One thing everyone can agree on is homeopathy won't in itself cause harm and there are other treatment with limited evidence that do cause harm, why pick on homeopathy


----------



## Booboos (16 December 2015)

Up



spacefaer said:



			I had an unrideable headshaker, diagnosed as having a pollen allergy.  He was prescribed homeopathic tablets by a vet, a combination of 6 to be taken daily - 4 lots to be taken every day, 2 to be taken twice a week. On this regime, he became rideable, with no headshaking and he evented to Advanced level.  If I ran out of one of the tablets, he began to get twitchy. If I stopped giving them to him, he became unrideable again.

No placebo as he didn't know he was taking them, and without them, he started headshaking within a very short time. Go figure....
		
Click to expand...

It cannot have been homeopathy if it was in tablet form. Homeopathy is only water...tablets don't remember as well!

Is it possible that you had no clue what you were feeding your horse?

Bangs on head on wall.


----------



## NZJenny (16 December 2015)

What Booboos said.  My understanding is that homeopathy is water, not tablets.  Therefore, if it was tablets, it was something else.


----------



## Gloi (16 December 2015)

spacefaer said:



			I had an unrideable headshaker, diagnosed as having a pollen allergy.  He was prescribed homeopathic tablets by a vet, a combination of 6 to be taken daily - 4 lots to be taken every day, 2 to be taken twice a week. On this regime, he became rideable, with no headshaking and he evented to Advanced level.  If I ran out of one of the tablets, he began to get twitchy. If I stopped giving them to him, he became unrideable again.

No placebo as he didn't know he was taking them, and without them, he started headshaking within a very short time. Go figure....
		
Click to expand...

The pollen allergy tablets could have been something like this, Not homeopathic but immunotherapy giving a amall dose of the allergen to build up an immunity to it.This is an example of a human tablet.
http://allergicliving.com/2014/04/16/new-grass-allergy-treatments-reach-the-u-s/


----------



## EQUIDAE (16 December 2015)

Gloi said:



			The pollen allergy tablets could have been something like this, Not homeopathic but immunotherapy giving a amall dose of the allergen to build up an immunity to it.This is an example of a human tablet.
http://allergicliving.com/2014/04/16/new-grass-allergy-treatments-reach-the-u-s/

Click to expand...

You can do this by feeding local honey to lessen hayfever.


----------



## Tiddlypom (16 December 2015)

Booboos said:



			It cannot have been homeopathy if it was in tablet form. Homeopathy is only water...tablets don't remember as well!

Is it possible that you had no clue what you were feeding your horse?

Bangs on head on wall.
		
Click to expand...

Boots as well as many other major stores sell homeopathic remedies in tablet form.

http://www.boots.com/en/Boots-Arnica-6c-Pillules-84-Pills_541/

Whilst I know that homeopathy should be bunkum, I know that I recover from a fall more quickly if I take Arnica afterwards..


----------



## rara007 (16 December 2015)

I think homeopathy tablets are a sugar tablet with a drop of homeopathic liquid dropped on, and allowed to soak in/evaporate.


----------



## Danny Vet (16 December 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Whilst I know that homeopathy should be bunkum, I know that I recover from a fall more quickly if I take Arnica afterwards..
		
Click to expand...

Arnica is not homeopathy, it is herbal medicine, some of which works very well!

Have a read of this, it explains the difference.  Homeopathy is essentially magic.  Herbal medicine does have active ingredients.


----------



## Danny Vet (16 December 2015)

chillipup said:



			Thanks Danny..signed.  Just what is the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons reasoning to continue to permit vets to practice homeopathy on their patients?
		
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for signing.  I can't explain why they permit vets to prescribe homeopathy, hence the petition!  It seems like a no-brainer to me.


----------



## EQUIDAE (16 December 2015)

rara007 said:



			I think homeopathy tablets are a sugar tablet with a drop of homeopathic liquid dropped on, and allowed to soak in/evaporate.
		
Click to expand...

So the water has the memory of the active ingredient and the sugar has the memory of the water - that's even more crazy!


----------



## Orca (16 December 2015)

Danny Vet said:



			Arnica is not homeopathy, it is herbal medicine, some of which works very well!.
		
Click to expand...




Orca said:



			I think maybe it's the crossover between herbalism and homeopathy which is causing confusion. Arnica (as you know (TC) but others might not) can be either a homeopathic or herbal remedy, for e.g. &#55357;&#56842;
		
Click to expand...

As can Hypericum, as can Calendula, etc. There are herbal and homeopathic preparations of each and of many more.


----------



## spacefaer (16 December 2015)

Booboos said:



			Up

It cannot have been homeopathy if it was in tablet form. Homeopathy is only water...tablets don't remember as well!

Is it possible that you had no clue what you were feeding your horse?

Bangs on head on wall.
		
Click to expand...


It's always nice to discuss things in a reasoned manner with rational people.


----------



## littletrotter (17 December 2015)

spacefaer said:



			It's always nice to discuss things in a reasoned manner with rational people.
		
Click to expand...

Actually i know someone who saw a homeopath with her son for constipation.  Son was 2.  Homeopath prescribed some magical water, provided by her of course.  Son had no response for a day and then an explosive one, very thorough.  Mum sang praises.  Dad got suspicious and took a sample to work (he was a chemist of some sort) and it turned out weeks later that it was water, with a large dose of senna in it.  Mum accused dad of tampering, original bottle was all used up.  Another year on and son was diagnosed with dairy allergy, his main symptom - constipation.  So yes, lots of people give what-they-think-is-homeopathy to animals/children/themselves without actually knowing what is in it.


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (17 December 2015)

ycbm said:



			You need to explain that homeopathy does work for humans. It works because the average consultation is so hugely longer than conventional appointments with the doctors. In other words, it's a talking therapy. Animals can't talk, so it's unethical on animals. It's homeopathic medicine which is a placebo, but the feeling that someone is finally really listening to them cures a lot of people!
		
Click to expand...

I can't agree, when I had homeopathy [by a doctor]. I had a rather surprising reaction in the area involved, I was not made aware that this was going to happen,
I have found it good for chronic conditions.


----------



## OwnedbyJoe (17 December 2015)

We know that:
1. The placebo effect exists
2. The placebo effect still comes into effect even when people know they are being given a placebo!
3. The placebo effect sill comes into play in animal trials because we are in many cases reliant on the owner/carer's perception of improvement in symptoms (which is why clinical trials for, for example arthritis vet medicines are moving to force plate analysis rather than owner reports of improvement).
I think points 1-3 help explain a lot of "results" from homeopathy.
I remember my first boss (a very wise old bird) saying "I wish I was a homeopathic vet - they charge for water, can tell everyone things will get worse before they get better, and are allowed to say the animal will take months to heal"..
As for the headshaking "cure" since it a complex, multifactorial and poorly understood disease, I suspect it wasn't the homeopathy that caused the improvement.
Correlation does not equal causation.


----------



## Goldenstar (17 December 2015)

Danny Vet said:



			There are many unproven therapies, but homeopathy itself has been researched thoroughly and been proven to have no effect for any disease in humans beyond placebo.  This is why the NHS are looking at blacklisting it as it doesn't work and is a waste of taxpayers money. 

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/homeopathy/Pages/Introduction.aspx

Click to expand...

It's a disgrace the NHS wastes money on homeopathic remedies.


----------



## ycbm (17 December 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I can't agree, when I had homeopathy [by a doctor]. I had a rather surprising reaction in the area involved, I was not made aware that this was going to happen,
I have found it good for chronic conditions.
		
Click to expand...

Things get better over time, they just do. Especially if the patient believes they will.


----------



## applecart14 (17 December 2015)

Orca said:



			As can Hypericum, as can Calendula, etc. There are herbal and homeopathic preparations of each and of many more.
		
Click to expand...

That what I said earlier but I was told herbal is not the same as homeopathic and then someone else said "there is no point arguing with wilful ignorance" !!!!!  The cheek of it!  

  As far as I am concerned some remedies are both like Orca says.  

If you look up 'Arnica, herbal' and then 'Arnica, homeopathic' in your search engine it has information for both herbal forms of arnica and homeopathic forms of arnica.


----------



## Apercrumbie (17 December 2015)

applecart14 said:



			That what I said earlier but I was told herbal is not the same as homeopathic and then someone else said "there is no point arguing with wilful ignorance" !!!!!  The cheek of it!  

  As far as I am concerned some remedies are both like Orca says.  

If you look up 'Arnica, herbal' and then 'Arnica, homeopathic' in your search engine it has information for both herbal forms of arnica and homeopathic forms of arnica.
		
Click to expand...

The difference - and it is an absolutely crucial difference - is how they are made/administered.  A homeopathic preparation of arnica has pretty much no arnica in it at all.  A herbal preparation will have lots.  Most of us take the herbal version as it is widely available in pharmacies and it's pretty good stuff because it has enough of the active ingredient.  No one is saying that the herbs you quoted don't work.  Humans have been using herbs (herbs...not homeopathy) for thousands of years to treat illnesses.  What they are saying is that they may work when prepared appropriately instead of being diluted beyond all recognition and functionality!


----------



## Tiddlypom (17 December 2015)

Danny Vet said:



			Arnica is not homeopathy, it is herbal medicine, some of which works very well!

Have a read of this, it explains the difference.  Homeopathy is essentially magic.  Herbal medicine does have active ingredients.
		
Click to expand...

Erm, arnica is well known as a homeopathic remedy.

From the the Boots pharmacy website

_Boots Arnica 6c Pillules is a homeopathic medicinal product without approved therapeutic indictions.

Read more at http://www.boots.com/en/Boots-Arnica-6c-Pillules-84-Pills_541/#XuRuupeqM0fUPheu.99_

As previously mentioned by other posters, it seems that arnica can be used both as a herbal medicine and a homeopathic one, depending on how it is prepared. I was advised to take the homeopathic version after both my C section deliveries by the midwives, to assist post op recovery.


----------



## Booboos (17 December 2015)

How can you believe in something and take into your body without even being consistent with claims of the thing itself? Homeopathic arnica should be water with such a tiny amount of arnica in it that the arnica is no longer detectable (= just water), shaken not stirred. Herbal arnica is just arnica. That there exists for sale homeopathic arnica in arnica form shows that both sellers and buyers are too idiotic to even understand the 18th century theory the supposedly believe in.


----------



## Tiddlypom (17 December 2015)

Booboos said:



			That there exists for sale homeopathic arnica in arnica form shows that both sellers and buyers are too idiotic to even understand the 18th century theory the supposedly believe in.
		
Click to expand...

No need to be so rude!


----------



## JFTDWS (17 December 2015)

Booboos said:



			How can you believe in something and take into your body without even being consistent with claims of the thing itself? Homeopathic arnica should be water with such a tiny amount of arnica in it that the arnica is no longer detectable (= just water), shaken not stirred. Herbal arnica is just arnica. That there exists for sale homeopathic arnica in arnica form shows that both sellers and buyers are too idiotic to even understand the 18th century theory the supposedly believe in.
		
Click to expand...

Homeopathy doesn't really have its story straight.  Arnica is meant to be anti-inflammatory (hence the herbal prep).  Homeopathy claims to treat with hyperdilute solutions of things which cause disease.  Yet you can take homeopathic arnica to treat inflammation... Logic taking a bit of a hit there!


----------



## littletrotter (17 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			Homeopathy doesn't really have its story straight.  Arnica is meant to be anti-inflammatory (hence the herbal prep).  Homeopathy claims to treat with hyperdilute solutions of things which cause disease.  Yet you can take homeopathic arnica to treat inflammation... Logic taking a bit of a hit there!
		
Click to expand...

My favourite bit about the dilution theory as a whole is that you have to agitate the mixture by banging it on (essentially) a saddle!  I have told various people who swear by homeopathy that wee gem and they usually have no idea.  I invite them to look it up - the original proponent had a saddler make him a horsehair stuffed leather-on-wood-frame thing to bang the mixtures on and it HAD to be that thing and it HAD to be done along his very strict lines.  It really starts to shade over into snakeoil territory when you realise that bit.

At the time, when it was developed, i can see why it caught on.  We were still learning about bacterial disease and so on back then, imagining some part of a substance could "rub off" onto water cells isn't that far-fetched when you realise at the time Dr's were coming straight from postmortems in the morgue to the delivery rooms of labour ward WITHOUT washing their hands and couldn't understand why so many women were dying of childbed fever (postpartum sepsis, from the transfer of the bacteria from the women who died of it the day before!).  However in this day and age there's no excuse for it!


----------



## JFTDWS (17 December 2015)

littletrotter said:



			We were still learning about bacterial disease and so on back then, imagining some part of a substance could "rub off" onto water cells isn't that far-fetched when you realise at the time Dr's were coming straight from postmortems in the morgue to the delivery rooms of labour ward WITHOUT washing their hands and couldn't understand why so many women were dying of childbed fever (postpartum sepsis, from the transfer of the bacteria from the women who died of it the day before!).  However in this day and age there's no excuse for it!
		
Click to expand...

That's a beautiful bit of trivia.  Where did you get it from?


----------



## supsup (17 December 2015)

Actually, if you read up a bit more about the history of homeopathy, you also come to realise that it was developed during an age where a lot of "treatment" was actively harmful, such as using mercury as a "cure" for a lot of ailment, or arsenic.
I am not surprised that in contrast, the benign homeopathy stood out as actually allowing patients to heal - probably mostly by not doing any further harm, and giving it time.



OwnedbyJoe said:



			We know that:
1. The placebo effect exists
2. The placebo effect still comes into effect even when people know they are being given a placebo!
3. The placebo effect sill comes into play in animal trials because we are in many cases reliant on the owner/carer's perception of improvement in symptoms (which is why clinical trials for, for example arthritis vet medicines are moving to force plate analysis rather than owner reports of improvement).
		
Click to expand...

The second point of these is one I find particularly fascinating. The placebo effect seems to be able to bypass our rational brain. I think it would be much more worthwhile to invest into research to understand the placebo effect (in essence a self-healing mechanism), and how we can tap into it consciously or deliberately.


----------



## supsup (17 December 2015)

PS: This link shows a few clips of the (current day) production of homeopathic medication. http://www.homoeopathie-heute.de/homoeopathie/grundsaeulen/herstellung.php
The second clip from the top shows the dilution step, where the dilute mixture is tapped a specific number of times on a leather pad. The site is in German.


----------



## Orca (17 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			Homeopathy doesn't really have its story straight.  Arnica is meant to be anti-inflammatory (hence the herbal prep).  Homeopathy claims to treat with hyperdilute solutions of things which cause disease.  Yet you can take homeopathic arnica to treat inflammation... Logic taking a bit of a hit there!
		
Click to expand...

As stated previously, I'm cynical but just so you know, arnica is toxic if ingested in an undiluted form. Homeopathic preparations of 'hyperdilute' arnica are meant for ingestion and therefore probably do adhere to the like for like theory. The herbal preparation is for topical use only.


----------



## littletrotter (17 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			That's a beautiful bit of trivia.  Where did you get it from?
		
Click to expand...

I know a lot of midwives!  It is a fairly well-known part of the story of Dr Ignaz (i think) Semmelweis (i'm sure of that bit).  He was the first physician to feel that Doctor's should wash their hands between patients and it was because he saw how many women were dying on maternity wards where doctors and student doctors worked, as opposed to midwife-run wards - because they were engaged in frequent autopsies as part of their studies, something he realised after a pathologist cut himself during an autopsy and subsequently died.  Midwives didn't do autopsies.

Anyway he told everyone to wash their hands in chlorine soap (ironically he chose chlorine because it has a strong smell and he thought it would remove the smell of death, though we now know it is a very effective antibacterial) and the death rates fell dramatically, by 80-90%.  However he was, at the time (1840's so actually a bit after homeopathy) totally berated by his colleagues as they felt his hypothesis made them look "to blame" for the childbed fevers (which of course they were!) and they basically turned their backs on his theory and him.  He ended up in a mental institution, where he died aged only 47, of sepsis, the very thing his findings would have prevented if his practices had been widely adopted.

It was several more years before Pasteur came up with germ theory and set us on the road to modern medicine.


----------



## Booboos (17 December 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			No need to be so rude!
		
Click to expand...

Do you want a medal for believing in something and not even knowing what it is?


----------



## ycbm (17 December 2015)

Booboos said:



			Do you want a medal for believing in something and not even knowing what it is?
		
Click to expand...

That's called religion, gravity, catalysis, I think Boobos , it's not uncommon in all sorts of walks of life, and I do think you are being a tad hard on Tiddlypom.


----------



## Tiddlypom (17 December 2015)

Booboos said:



			Do you want a medal for believing in something and not even knowing what it is?
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe in it, I know it's bumkum, so how come I recover more quickly from a fall or other injury when I take homeopathic grade Arnica cf when I don't? 

(I am fully subscribed to the placebo effect, but I can't rationalise why homeopathic grade  Arnica appears to 'work' when I'm not expecting it to :confused3: ?)


----------



## ycbm (17 December 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			I don't believe in it, I know it's bumkum, so how come I recover more quickly from a fall or other injury when I take homeopathic grade Arnica cf when I don't? 

(I am fully subscribed to the placebo effect, but I can't rationalise why homeopathic grade  Arnica appears to 'work' when I'm not expecting it to :confused3: ?)
		
Click to expand...

Well that's the really surprising thing. In scientific tests you can prove that placebos work even if the person taking them knows they do absolutely nothing!


----------



## JFTDWS (17 December 2015)

Orca said:



			As stated previously, I'm cynical but just so you know, arnica is toxic if ingested in an undiluted form. Homeopathic preparations of 'hyperdilute' arnica are meant for ingestion and therefore probably do adhere to the like for like theory. The herbal preparation is for topical use only.
		
Click to expand...

That's not strictly true - whilst oral arnica is toxic at certain doses, people do still take herbal preparations of arnica orally as an anti-inflammatory- and swear to god it helps them too, because that's what people do...  Misguided, maybe, but the lack of logic still stands.



littletrotter said:



			I know a lot of midwives!  It is a fairly well-known part of the story of Dr Ignaz (i think) Semmelweis (i'm sure of that bit).  He was the first physician to feel that Doctor's should wash their hands between patients and it was because he saw how many women were dying on maternity wards where doctors and student doctors worked, as opposed to midwife-run wards - because they were engaged in frequent autopsies as part of their studies, something he realised after a pathologist cut himself during an autopsy and subsequently died.  Midwives didn't do autopsies.

Anyway he told everyone to wash their hands in chlorine soap (ironically he chose chlorine because it has a strong smell and he thought it would remove the smell of death, though we now know it is a very effective antibacterial) and the death rates fell dramatically, by 80-90%.  However he was, at the time (1840's so actually a bit after homeopathy) totally berated by his colleagues as they felt his hypothesis made them look "to blame" for the childbed fevers (which of course they were!) and they basically turned their backs on his theory and him.  He ended up in a mental institution, where he died aged only 47, of sepsis, the very thing his findings would have prevented if his practices had been widely adopted.

It was several more years before Pasteur came up with germ theory and set us on the road to modern medicine.
		
Click to expand...

I knew it was familiar, I read it in a book about the history of germ theory years ago.  Alas, the book is in storage so I can't revisit it.  But thanks for the refresher - it all came flooding back as I read that!


----------



## tallyho! (17 December 2015)

Whilst I agree we should not be using taxpayers money to provide therapies yet unproven by modern scientific analysis, I am loathed to sign such a petition. 

This reduces the options people have. 

Not all evidence that is backed by multimillion dollar investments by pharma work 100%. "Statistically significant" benchmarks are set and as long as you make it into the magic threshold P value, you get to market.

As a patient, or shall we say walking statistic, if you happen to be the number that becomes a failure or a non-responder, where do you go? What if you are unfortunate enough to have a contraindication or match the exclusion criteria? If that treatment is the last box on the disease pathway, what then?

People and animals need options. I'm afraid I will not back the data-philes that want to control everything by numbers and analyses. There is more to life than p values and I'm afraid I refuse to have people like that dictate how I choose to treat myself or my animals. Where there is hope, there exists light. If you are unfortunate enough to find yourself in a dark tunnel one day, you will know what I mean.


----------



## Orca (17 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			That's not strictly true - whilst oral arnica is toxic at certain doses, people do still take herbal preparations of arnica orally as an anti-inflammatory- and swear to god it helps them too, because that's what people do...  Misguided, maybe, but the lack of logic still stands.
		
Click to expand...

There is no doubt that homeopathy is illogical. I can imagine people do ingest arnica along with other plants which aren't necessarily safe in quantities, which is far more potentially dangerous than a little homeopathic sugar pill could ever be. I think this is why I struggle to feel offended by homeopathy (aside from seeing it appear to work). If it doesn't work, it's benign. If it does work, that's positive. 

Specifically how many people have foregone treatment with a proven chance of working, in favour of treatments without scientifically proven success rates, in life or death or painful situations for their horses, I wonder?

Sadly, some may have but I still feel the majority deserve autonomy in their decision making. I'd be more interested in clamping down on vets using medications on horses which are not tested on horses, are not proven scientifically ' safe' for use in horses and are not licensed for use on horses, personally.


----------



## tallyho! (17 December 2015)

Orca said:



			There is no doubt that homeopathy is illogical. I can imagine people do ingest arnica along with other plants which aren't necessarily safe in quantities, which is far more potentially dangerous than a little homeopathic sugar pill could ever be. I think this is why I struggle to feel offended by homeopathy (aside from seeing it appear to work). If it doesn't work, it's benign. If it does work, that's positive. 

Specifically how many people have foregone treatment with a proven chance of working, in favour of treatments without scientifically proven success rates, in life or death or painful situations for their horses, I wonder?

Sadly, some may have but I still feel the majority deserve autonomy in their decision making. I'd be more interested in clamping down on vets using medications on horses which are not tested on horses, are not proven scientifically ' safe' for use in horses and are not licensed for use on horses, personally.
		
Click to expand...

As above plus, I don't know how I would put myself on the Hypocrite Scale if I signed the petition... I'm already ON the scale somewhere!

People using homeopathy that could kill their horse... or... 

People using HRT namely Premarin (which is 'scientifically proven' by the way - a clinical paper, p values, the lot)... or...

People who use proven drugs on horses that are tested on the tracks... or...

People that use homeopathy that are tested on other animals...


----------



## MDB (17 December 2015)

I don't understand why homeopathy is being singled out here. I know very little regarding homeopathy, but clearly some people and animals have seen positive results after it's use. I believe a holistic approach to the health of our horses is what is most important. I think most people would not advocate treatment by only one method, at the exclusion of all other options. One could equally be negligent by administering only physio or chiro, or farriery treatment, massage therapy etc etc etc and cause undue suffering to a horse if other effective treatments are available and which could be used either in conjunction with or as an alternative to "alternative" treatments.  Personally I believe it is important to have access to all the tools in the toolbox, and at least have the option of choosing, providing the horse is not going to suffer unnecessarily from withholding other possible treatments.


----------



## ycbm (18 December 2015)

No-one is suggesting that homeopathy is banned. People will still have the choice to use it.

The petition is to stop vets from offering it as one of their services, because there is masses of evidence and without fail it shows that it does not work on animals and in human works only as a placebo does.

I'm in favour of choice AND I've signed the petition.


----------



## Danny Vet (18 December 2015)

MDB said:



			I don't understand why homeopathy is being singled out here. I know very little regarding homeopathy, but clearly some people and animals have seen positive results after it's use. I believe a holistic approach to the health of our horses is what is most important.
		
Click to expand...

You are not alone in not fully understanding homeopathy- I think it often gets confused with herbal medicine or a "holistic approach", but it is neither of those things.  This link is a very brief summary of what it entails.  

https://www.facebook.com/notes/dann...athy-in-less-than-2-minutes/10153732744522403

The reason homeopathy is being singled out compared to other alternative treatments is because, unlike for instance crystal healing or faith healing (which no one has studied properly to prove that they don't work), homeopathy has been studied extensively and we know for certain that it is nothing more than a placebo effect.  IN animals, the placebo effect is the owner believing they have seen an improvement but in reality the animal probably hasn't improved.  For example, giving homeopathy for a stiff old horse with spavin... maybe he does look less stiff today? Maybe he genuinely isn't as stiff today (because it is warmer)? It is not because of the homeopathy, and the horse would definitely feel better on a proper painkiller. 

The other reason homeopathy is being singled out is because it is offered by some vets.  Vets are not offering crystal healing or reiki, and if they were that would also be considered unprofessional.   Whether you believe in God or not (that is another discussion!) you would be very surprised if your doctor decided to pray for you instead of giving you actual treatment.  It's not to say that praying is wrong or won't help, it's just not what you expect from a medical professional.  It is the same with vets and homeopathy. 



MDB said:



			Personally I believe it is important to have access to all the tools in the toolbox, and at least have the option of choosing, providing the horse is not going to suffer unnecessarily from withholding other possible treatments.
		
Click to expand...

You're correct, we should use the variety of tools in the toolbox.  But you would throw out any tool from your toolbox that didn't actually work!


----------



## Django Pony (18 December 2015)

A link explaining how homepathy works:
http://www.howdoeshomeopathywork.com/


----------



## Cortez (18 December 2015)

Django Pony said:



			A link explaining how homepathy works:
http://www.howdoeshomeopathywork.com/

Click to expand...

Or rather, doesn't.....


----------



## FfionWinnie (18 December 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			I don't believe in it, I know it's bumkum, so how come I recover more quickly from a fall or other injury when I take homeopathic grade Arnica cf when I don't? 

(I am fully subscribed to the placebo effect, but I can't rationalise why homeopathic grade  Arnica appears to 'work' when I'm not expecting it to :confused3: ?)
		
Click to expand...

Unless you have the exact same falls every time (and if you do maybe get some super glue  ) it's not really a test is it because each fall is an individual erm, experiment... &#128563;


----------



## Booboos (18 December 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			I don't believe in it, I know it's bumkum, so how come I recover more quickly from a fall or other injury when I take homeopathic grade Arnica cf when I don't? 

(I am fully subscribed to the placebo effect, but I can't rationalise why homeopathic grade  Arnica appears to 'work' when I'm not expecting it to :confused3: ?)
		
Click to expand...

You don't have to expect the placebo effect or even know about it for it to work.


----------



## Booboos (18 December 2015)

Danny Vet said:



			You are not alone in not fully understanding homeopathy- I think it often gets confused with herbal medicine or a "holistic approach", but it is neither of those things.  This link is a very brief summary of what it entails.  

https://www.facebook.com/notes/dann...athy-in-less-than-2-minutes/10153732744522403

The reason homeopathy is being singled out compared to other alternative treatments is because, unlike for instance crystal healing or faith healing (which no one has studied properly to prove that they don't work), homeopathy has been studied extensively and we know for certain that it is nothing more than a placebo effect.  IN animals, the placebo effect is the owner believing they have seen an improvement but in reality the animal probably hasn't improved.  For example, giving homeopathy for a stiff old horse with spavin... maybe he does look less stiff today? Maybe he genuinely isn't as stiff today (because it is warmer)? It is not because of the homeopathy, and the horse would definitely feel better on a proper painkiller. 

The other reason homeopathy is being singled out is because it is offered by some vets.  Vets are not offering crystal healing or reiki, and if they were that would also be considered unprofessional.   Whether you believe in God or not (that is another discussion!) you would be very surprised if your doctor decided to pray for you instead of giving you actual treatment.  It's not to say that praying is wrong or won't help, it's just not what you expect from a medical professional.  It is the same with vets and homeopathy. 



You're correct, we should use the variety of tools in the toolbox.  But you would throw out any tool from your toolbox that didn't actually work!
		
Click to expand...

There are loads of studies that prove that faith healing doesn't work. There are studies that show that prayer doesn't work, studies that show that being bitten by a serpent has no therapeutic effect, etc.

I am sure some poor sod has also wasted his time showing that waving crystals around does not produce a magical therapy, but I doubt it's made any difference who those who believe it does.


----------



## Booboos (18 December 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Whilst I agree we should not be using taxpayers money to provide therapies yet unproven by modern scientific analysis, I am loathed to sign such a petition. 

This reduces the options people have. 

Not all evidence that is backed by multimillion dollar investments by pharma work 100%. "Statistically significant" benchmarks are set and as long as you make it into the magic threshold P value, you get to market.

As a patient, or shall we say walking statistic, if you happen to be the number that becomes a failure or a non-responder, where do you go? What if you are unfortunate enough to have a contraindication or match the exclusion criteria? If that treatment is the last box on the disease pathway, what then?

People and animals need options. I'm afraid I will not back the data-philes that want to control everything by numbers and analyses. There is more to life than p values and I'm afraid I refuse to have people like that dictate how I choose to treat myself or my animals. Where there is hope, there exists light. If you are unfortunate enough to find yourself in a dark tunnel one day, you will know what I mean.
		
Click to expand...

You know big pharma are the owners of the largest herbal, homeopathic and natural healing therapy companies right?!

Also 'as yet unproven' is quite different from 'entirely disproven and Baden on ridiculous claims anyway'.


----------



## Tnavas (18 December 2015)

applecart14 said:



			Who said it was?
		
Click to expand...

What you described was the use of HERBAL remedies. Homeopathy uses tinctures of substances in such diluted form as to incite the body to build a resistance, like polio, measles mumps and rubella injections. They make the bodies immune system work.


----------



## JFTDWS (18 December 2015)

Tnavas said:



			Homeopathy uses tinctures of substances in such diluted form as to incite the body to build a resistance, like polio, measles mumps and rubella injections. They make the bodies immune system work.
		
Click to expand...

Um no.  Just no.


----------



## Overread (18 December 2015)

Immunising injections are more complex than that; they don't just contain "a bit of" what they immunise against; but rather a generally special strain which is less aggressive/effective. So its enough to build resistance, but not enough to actually infect you. And whilst its a tiny amount the concentrations are vastly higher than in Homeopathy. 


Asides which immunisation doesn't work after you've become ill; its for before to prevent. Once you are infected and are ill you have to reach for different medication and methods to tackle the problem. 



It's also important to realise that:
1) Animals are very good at hiding pain and most will hide fairly significant levels of pain. As a result an animal might appear ok, when it is in fact in pain; the pain is just not so bad as to make them show it. Which is why when you see an animal visibly in pain its normally a very bad sign. 

2) The body is an amazing thing and can recover from many problems; or adapt to live with them (to an extent). As a result for some more milder conditions its possible for the animal to recover fully or to a point where they show no obvious signs of distress; or to at least improve their condition. As a result its easy to think that homeopathy has "done" something when in fact its done nothing. 



I also argue that the concentrations of chemicals within homeopathy are so tiny that just drinking regular tap-water should immunise and cure you to a huge number of things automatically. Indeed considering how water gets around nearly everything a single glass should render you 100% medically sound and immune to illness.


----------



## littletrotter (18 December 2015)

Overread said:



			I also argue that the concentrations of chemicals within homeopathy are so tiny that just drinking regular tap-water should immunise and cure you to a huge number of things automatically. Indeed considering how water gets around nearly everything a single glass should render you 100% medically sound and immune to illness.
		
Click to expand...

But if you don't drink ANY water then you die, so therefore homeopathy works.  Also breathing air is deadly because 100% of dead people were doing so right before they died


----------



## Overread (18 December 2015)

littletrotter said:



			But if you don't drink ANY water then you die, so therefore homeopathy works.  Also breathing air is deadly because 100% of dead people were doing so right before they died 

Click to expand...

Ahh but you forget H2O is found in 100% of murder victims! 




In general though yes drinking water helps with most illness and sickness. Remaining hydrated is an important thing, but that should never be confused with the use of Homeopathy.


----------



## cava14una (18 December 2015)

I had sinus pain which extended into my mouth and caused really bad pain which pain killers didn't touch. I was treated by a homeopath and the pain went and has never come back.


----------



## Overread (18 December 2015)

cava14una said:



			I had sinus pain which extended into my mouth and caused really bad pain which pain killers didn't touch. I was treated by a homeopath and the pain went and has never come back.
		
Click to expand...

Sinus pain is, however, linked to stress levels. It could be that the pains you were having were partly the result of stress and that the homeopathic pathway offered resulted in a reduction in your stress levels. It could also have been an infection which had increased impact due to higher stress levels at the time. 

No one denies that homeopathic medication can work through placebo effect; nor that many homeopathic methods often include a lot of psychological support and well-being. 


It is impossible, though, that true homeopathic medication would have resulted in a purely chemically induced change within your body and sinuses which would have stopped the pain. 




It is also important to realise that, as related earlier in a story by another user, sometimes some homeopathic medications are used which are closer to herbal remedies than true homeopathic. Herbal medication certainly does work and many "science" medical compounds are derived from herbal sources. It's why scientists are always talking about the vast unknown potential for medical discoveries from areas like the Amazon.


----------



## littletrotter (18 December 2015)

Overread said:



			Ahh but you forget H2O is found in 100% of murder victims! 




In general though yes drinking water helps with most illness and sickness. Remaining hydrated is an important thing, but that should never be confused with the use of Homeopathy.
		
Click to expand...

Actually H2O is chemicals, and everyone knows chemicals kill you.  By drowning in this case.


----------



## littletrotter (18 December 2015)

cava14una said:



			I had sinus pain which extended into my mouth and caused really bad pain which pain killers didn't touch. I was treated by a homeopath and the pain went and has never come back.
		
Click to expand...

Pain isn't in your sinuses though, it's in your brain (all pain is actually produced, as an experience of the sufferer, in the brain).

You can amputate someone's leg and they can go on feeling excruciating pain in it.  Unfortunately pain response isn't as straightforward as say, bleeding.  I know someone who used homeopathic treatments after giving birth when she was bleeding too much.  She lost nearly 2000cc of blood, eventually she transported to hospital and took the allopathic cure (IV transfusion of contractant medication) and it stopped.  She had to have 3 units transfused though.

Anecdote isn't data.  The data indicates that homeopathy is no more effective than placebo.  Placebo has a POWERFUL effect for some problems and in some people!  It shouldn't be discounted as a therapeutic approach.  A lot of folk on this thread seem to use "placebo" as interchangeable with "useless" - it's NOT useless.  And if it works for you you should keep using it.  The most recent studies show that for pain, paracetamol is only as good as placebo.  It is still a recommended treatment because it's fever-reducing properties are not merely placebo (although ibuprofen is better on both counts than paracetamol or placebo).


----------



## tallyho! (18 December 2015)

Booboos said:



			You know big pharma are the owners of the largest herbal, homeopathic and natural healing therapy companies right?!

Also 'as yet unproven' is quite different from 'entirely disproven and Baden on ridiculous claims anyway'.
		
Click to expand...

Oh my... booboos, are you agreeing with someone for a change?


----------



## tallyho! (18 December 2015)

Danny Vet said:



			You are not alone in not fully understanding homeopathy- I think it often gets confused with herbal medicine or a "holistic approach", but it is neither of those things.  This link is a very brief summary of what it entails.  

https://www.facebook.com/notes/dann...athy-in-less-than-2-minutes/10153732744522403

The reason homeopathy is being singled out compared to other alternative treatments is because, unlike for instance crystal healing or faith healing (which no one has studied properly to prove that they don't work), homeopathy has been studied extensively and we know for certain that it is nothing more than a placebo effect.  IN animals, the placebo effect is the owner believing they have seen an improvement but in reality the animal probably hasn't improved.  For example, giving homeopathy for a stiff old horse with spavin... maybe he does look less stiff today? Maybe he genuinely isn't as stiff today (because it is warmer)? It is not because of the homeopathy, and the horse would definitely feel better on a proper painkiller. 

The other reason homeopathy is being singled out is because it is offered by some vets.  Vets are not offering crystal healing or reiki, and if they were that would also be considered unprofessional.   Whether you believe in God or not (that is another discussion!) you would be very surprised if your doctor decided to pray for you instead of giving you actual treatment.  It's not to say that praying is wrong or won't help, it's just not what you expect from a medical professional.  It is the same with vets and homeopathy. 



You're correct, we should use the variety of tools in the toolbox.  But you would throw out any tool from your toolbox that didn't actually work!
		
Click to expand...

Danny Vet... vets routinely use medicines that are not proven and some have been disproven  routinely.

Metformin for laminitis. No evidence. (No large trials with dose ranging or dose confirmation for equids)

Sarcoid tratements. Some only have anecdotal evidence.

Far from advocating homeopathy, I'm merely supporting choice.


----------



## Booboos (18 December 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Oh my... booboos, are you agreeing with someone for a change?
		
Click to expand...

I am agreeing with the people on this thread who think homeopathy is nonsense and should not be prescribed as a treatment by people who represent the veterinary profession.


----------



## ycbm (18 December 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Danny Vet... vets routinely use medicines that are not proven and some have been disproven  routinely.

Metformin for laminitis. No evidence. (No large trials with dose ranging or dose confirmation for equids)

Sarcoid tratements. Some only have anecdotal evidence.

Far from advocating homeopathy, I'm merely supporting choice.
		
Click to expand...

1. No-one is trying to stop choice. Homeopathy will still be available. It is illegal for a non vet to diagnose a horse, it is not illegal for a homeopath to treat it.

2.  All the drugs used on horses do * something* even if they aren't an effective treatment for the disease they are being used for. Homeopathy is proven to do absolutely * nothing whatsoever* on animals, and placebo effect only in humans.


----------



## tallyho! (18 December 2015)

Booboos said:



			I am agreeing with the people on this thread who think homeopathy is nonsense and should not be prescribed as a treatment by people who represent the veterinary profession.
		
Click to expand...

oh.


----------



## Mike007 (18 December 2015)

Of course homeopathy is nonsense .Unfortunately the difference between sense and nonsense rather depends on how much we know. I was amused by one or two posters who refereed to water as H20. It isnt . Water is very odd stuff!. Its so common that we tend to forget just how odd its propertys are in comparison with similar molecules. The truth is that water is really H(2n) O(n) as all of what we laughingly call water molecules are really linked together by hydrogen bonding into a sort of super molecule . We laugh at the idea of water having a memory yet drop an alien molecule into pure water and you will affect the electron distribution of every atom present. My highly educated brain tells me that its all nonsense but that is not the same as not true.


----------



## rosiesue (19 December 2015)

Interesting thread.....however just to throw a spanner in the works I read somewhere online recently that a remedy (Kali Bich I think) had been trialled in an intensive care setting for human patients and the patients treated with that compared to the placebo group had significantly less problems with mucus on the chest, as a result that intensive care unit and others within in that particular health authority now make it routine for its ITU patients to have the remedy now.....I was thinking it was either in the U.K or U.S but in view of the earlier post regarding the NHS opinion on homeopathy I am guessing its probably the U.s. apologies for going slightly off track from the thread topic but wondered if anyone else had read or heard this?


----------



## SusieT (19 December 2015)

Homeopathy is complete and utter nonsense and as the op says it is unethical to use. 
Fine to try it as on minor non painful conditions as a last resort as it will do nothing.. not fine to use it on an animal in pain as a 'last resort' as the animal will remain in pain for a longer period of time.
Use it on yourself - use something htat does something on your horses.


----------



## Orca (19 December 2015)

rosiesue said:



			Interesting thread.....however just to throw a spanner in the works I read somewhere online recently that a remedy (Kali Bich I think) had been trialled in an intensive care setting for human patients and the patients treated with that compared to the placebo group had significantly less problems with mucus on the chest, as a result that intensive care unit and others within in that particular health authority now make it routine for its ITU patients to have the remedy now.....I was thinking it was either in the U.K or U.S but in view of the earlier post regarding the NHS opinion on homeopathy I am guessing its probably the U.s. apologies for going slightly off track from the thread topic but wondered if anyone else had read or heard this?
		
Click to expand...

I've found evidence of that trial but can't seem to copy the link. There are references to approximately 45 other clinical trials and/ meta-analyses throughout this article though... http://www.wholehealthnow.com/homeopathy_pro/research_2.html


----------



## Orca (19 December 2015)

Mike007 said:



			Of course homeopathy is nonsense .Unfortunately the difference between sense and nonsense rather depends on how much we know. I was amused by one or two posters who refereed to water as H20. It isnt . Water is very odd stuff!. Its so common that we tend to forget just how odd its propertys are in comparison with similar molecules. The truth is that water is really H(2n) O(n) as all of what we laughingly call water molecules are really linked together by hydrogen bonding into a sort of super molecule . We laugh at the idea of water having a memory yet drop an alien molecule into pure water and you will affect the electron distribution of every atom present. My highly educated brain tells me that its all nonsense but that is not the same as not true.
		
Click to expand...

My deeply uneducated brain enjoyed this post! Homeopathy is illogical - yet I've seen it appear to work and nothing I've read here yet has swayed me towards signing the petition.


----------



## ycbm (19 December 2015)

Mike007 said:



			Of course homeopathy is nonsense .Unfortunately the difference between sense and nonsense rather depends on how much we know. I was amused by one or two posters who refereed to water as H20. It isnt . Water is very odd stuff!. Its so common that we tend to forget just how odd its propertys are in comparison with similar molecules. The truth is that water is really H(2n) O(n) as all of what we laughingly call water molecules are really linked together by hydrogen bonding into a sort of super molecule . We laugh at the idea of water having a memory yet drop an alien molecule into pure water and you will affect the electron distribution of every atom present. My highly educated brain tells me that its all nonsense but that is not the same as not true.
		
Click to expand...

Can you point me to an explanation please Mike. I can't find any reference to H(2n)O(n) on Google.


----------



## ycbm (19 December 2015)

Orca said:



			I've found evidence of that trial but can't seem to copy the link. There are references to approximately 45 other clinical trials and/ meta-analyses throughout this article though... http://www.wholehealthnow.com/homeopathy_pro/research_2.html

Click to expand...

My understanding is that there isn't a single properly conducted double blind trial (where the people giving out the medicine don't know what's in it) where homeopathy performs any better to a 95% confidence level  than a placebo.

That article doesn't change that. And really, to refer to grouping together three of your own tiny trials and calling them a meta study is completely laughable.


----------



## rosiesue (19 December 2015)

Orca said:



			I've found evidence of that trial but can't seem to copy the link. There are references to approximately 45 other clinical trials and/ meta-analyses throughout this article though... http://www.wholehealthnow.com/homeopathy_pro/research_2.html

Click to expand...

Thanks Orca, I will have a go later when I go on iPad as easier, it was the hospital one I found so interesting, I don't imagine consultants etc involved in intensive care settings are prone to flights of fancy. I will see if I can manage a link later.


----------



## rosiesue (19 December 2015)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15764779   found one.....as I say it is taking from the original post....but this is interesting, well, I thought so anyway.


----------



## Orca (19 December 2015)

ycbm said:



			My understanding is that there isn't a single properly conducted double blind trial (where the people giving out the medicine don't know what's in it) where homeopathy performs any better to a 95% confidence level  than a placebo.

That article doesn't change that. And really, to refer to grouping together three of your own tiny trials and calling them a meta study is completely laughable.
		
Click to expand...

I have to agree re meta-analysis. I'm hoping to have time to read the article properly today. The trial rosiesue refers to was a double blind, as far as I recall. 



rosiesue said:



			Thanks Orca, I will have a go later when I go on iPad as easier, it was the hospital one I found so interesting, I don't imagine consultants etc involved in intensive care settings are prone to flights of fancy. I will see if I can manage a link later.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## ycbm (19 December 2015)

rosiesue said:



			Thanks Orca, I will have a go later when I go on iPad as easier, it was the hospital one I found so interesting, I don't imagine consultants etc involved in intensive care settings are prone to flights of fancy. I will see if I can manage a link later.
		
Click to expand...

They are prone to exactly the same problems of extrapolation from a tiny, tiny number of people where chance produced a result as everyone else. I'll bet my bottom dollar that in twenty years time their patients on average behave no differently than any other hospital using exactly the same regime without the magic water.


----------



## ycbm (19 December 2015)

Orca said:



			I have to agree re meta-analysis. I'm hoping to have time to read the article properly today. The trial rosiesue refers to was a double blind, as far as I recall.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, it was, , but on numbers so tiny it can easily be chance.  Let's wait a few years and see proper numbers and replication by other doctors before we get too excited.


----------



## ycbm (19 December 2015)

rosiesue said:



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15764779   found one.....as I say it is taking from the original post....but this is interesting, well, I thought so anyway.
		
Click to expand...

I thought so too Rosiesue, everything should be explored


----------



## Mike007 (19 December 2015)

ycbm said:



			Can you point me to an explanation please Mike. I can't find any reference to H(2n)O(n) on Google.
		
Click to expand...

Try reading up on hydrogen bonding. The point is that atoms in a molecule are linked by their electron clouds .Hydrogen bonding links the electron clouds of otherwise separate molecules and they interact and could in some senses be considered as one huge molecule . (the n is simply the number of H2O "molecules"involved).


----------



## Orca (19 December 2015)

ycbm said:



			Yes, it was, , but on numbers so tiny it can easily be chance.  Let's wait a few years and see proper numbers and replication by other doctors before we get too excited.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not excited but I do find it interesting &#55357;&#56842;.

I also find the concept of placebo by proxy interesting. That is being put forward as the reason for people appearing to see improvement in children and animals after receiving homeopathy but is it a proven theory? Genuine question. If homeopathy doesn't work, I'm interested in understanding why it consistently appears to, to so many people. I know people believe in the impossible all of the time but the concept of transferring the placebo effect to another is something I'm not familiar with.


----------



## JFTDWS (19 December 2015)

Mike007 said:



			Of course homeopathy is nonsense .Unfortunately the difference between sense and nonsense rather depends on how much we know. I was amused by one or two posters who refereed to water as H20. It isnt . Water is very odd stuff!. Its so common that we tend to forget just how odd its propertys are in comparison with similar molecules. The truth is that water is really H(2n) O(n) as all of what we laughingly call water molecules are really linked together by hydrogen bonding into a sort of super molecule . We laugh at the idea of water having a memory yet drop an alien molecule into pure water and you will affect the electron distribution of every atom present. My highly educated brain tells me that its all nonsense but that is not the same as not true.
		
Click to expand...

Oh come on.  I'm perfectly familiar with the concept of hydrogen bonding, but using that rationale to sneer at people describing water as H2O (which is scientifically acceptable) is absurd.  Water molecules interact - everyone with even a rudimentary grasp of biology knows this.  Almost all molecules can, or will, interact with other local molecules.  That doesn't mean they're all magically linked over distances with the capacity for memory...


----------



## Danny Vet (19 December 2015)

Orca said:



			Genuine question. If homeopathy doesn't work, I'm interested in understanding why it consistently appears to, to so many people. I know people believe in the impossible all of the time but the concept of transferring the placebo effect to another is something I'm not familiar with.
		
Click to expand...

Very good question!

Here are two very good links that explain that very question:

Why homeopathy works
https://www.vetsurgeon.org/microsites/private/rational-medicine/p/homeopathy-works.aspx

Ben Goldacre is a doctor who studies this kind of phenomenon:
http://youtu.be/O1Q3jZw4FGs


----------



## Orca (19 December 2015)

Danny Vet said:



			Very good question!

Here are two very good links that explain that very question:

Why homeopathy works
https://www.vetsurgeon.org/microsites/private/rational-medicine/p/homeopathy-works.aspx

Ben Goldacre is a doctor who studies this kind of phenomenon:
http://youtu.be/O1Q3jZw4FGs

Click to expand...

Thank you, I look forward to reading them.


----------



## rosiesue (19 December 2015)

I agree that it is indeed concerning if people seek a non proven remedy in preference to medical help for those that are reliant on us but in the case of chronic issues if all else has failed and the animal is not actively suffering then i see no reason why homeopathy should not be tried..... I myself use it for the animals in my care, I also use herbs.....The vet, however is my first port of call.....which brings me to an interesting scenario, many years ago I had a goat, who kept coming into milk...a maiden milker I think the term would be, mastitis was a problem....and no matter what the vet tried we were failing....nothing was clearing it....it was becoming a chronic problem.....in the end he just said " well we have tried everything and nothing is shifting it....she seems happy enough ......" So as a last ditch resort a couple of weeks after her last lot of failed injections and creams etc I tried a homeopathic remedy, saw what I thought looked like a slight improvement but was not convinced...so added another in, she was on 2 remedies and that udder cleared up and she never had it again.....she lived a long happy life there after....now we could say she was going to get better anyway....it was just coincidence...all of that....yet when my vet came out next to one of the horses, he asked how Winnie was (goat) I suggested he went and looked.....he was amazed and asked how so I did tell him what I had put her on.....he wrote it down, he said to me that up until then he had always thought of it as kind of thing that makes the owner feel better and although the remedy would not do any good it would not do any harm either (his words not mine) however he left my place that day absolutely fascinated and I think his mind had been opened a bit to the possibility that maybe, just maybe, homeopathy may have more to it than he thought.....as I say coincidence? May well be.....but the vet asked after Winnie every time he visited and the answer was always the same.....no more problems......oh and many years later he would smile at me out of the blue and " say remember that goat? With that mastitis? " And his eyes would twinkle and he would say it intrigued him I talk of him in the past tense as he has sadly passed, taking his wonderful open mind with him.....


----------



## fburton (19 December 2015)

Mike007 said:



			Of course homeopathy is nonsense .Unfortunately the difference between sense and nonsense rather depends on how much we know. I was amused by one or two posters who refereed to water as H20. It isnt . Water is very odd stuff!. Its so common that we tend to forget just how odd its propertys are in comparison with similar molecules. The truth is that water is really H(2n) O(n) as all of what we laughingly call water molecules are really linked together by hydrogen bonding into a sort of super molecule . We laugh at the idea of water having a memory yet drop an alien molecule into pure water and you will affect the electron distribution of every atom present. My highly educated brain tells me that its all nonsense but that is not the same as not true.
		
Click to expand...

At what strength of interaction between like molecules would one be wrong to refer to the 'naive' chemical formula. Benzene is C6H6. Or maybe you would argue it is not, and that what we laughingly call benzene molecules are really linked via pi-stacking? I was taught that what usually counts to qualify something to be a molecule, with a molecular weight and formula, for organic compounds at least, is covalent bonding. Yes, there are grey areas - like DNA, where the strands are linked with hydrogen bonds - but it seems a bit extreme to say that water _isn't_ H2O or benzene _isn't_ C6H6 or ethanol _isn't_ C2H5OH.


----------



## Mike007 (19 December 2015)

And does water behave like a small molecule with a molecular weight of 18 . No it most definitely doesn't ! The hydrogen bonds are no less real than any other form of bond despite the inconvenient contradiction of mankind's attempt to stick labels on things.


----------



## JFTDWS (19 December 2015)

Erm, nobody is dismissing the significance of hydrogen bonding, or the properties it gives water - heck, I teach an entire module about it year in, year out.  It just doesn't exactly work the way you describe...


----------



## Mike007 (19 December 2015)

JFTD said:



			Erm, nobody is dismissing the significance of hydrogen bonding, or the properties it gives water - heck, I teach an entire module about it year in, year out.  It just doesn't exactly work the way you describe...
		
Click to expand...

No of course it doesnt work exactly the way I describe. But then ,in fairness what you teach in your module isnt exactly the truth either . No offence intended. One of the great skills of a good teacher is to know when to "dumb something down". So for example in schools Newtonian physics is taught . Relativity and quantum mechanics are avoided . In this thread I feel that some people have been rather too quick to scorn Homeopathy on the basis of some rather basic and questionable  assumptions .
Quantum entanglement was up until recently a nonsense idea until it was demonstrated. We have no idea still if its effects can be demonstrated beyond the subatomic level. I suspect that there is a lot of myth and mystery attached to Homeopathy but I cant dismiss it out of hand because we now know "God does play dice"


----------



## ycbm (19 December 2015)

Mike, I get your point in layman's terms, I think. You are saying that if you put one molecule of chlorine into a litre of water, what you get is a litre of dilute hydrochloric acid. But are you really suggesting that if you remove that one molecule of chlorine from that litre of water, that the water does not return to being pure water, but somehow retains a memory of having once been weak hydrochloric acid?  My understanding is that's exactly what homeopathy is saying.

And  If you are not ruling out homeopathy, then what is your position on it being impossible to show anything but a placebo effect on any suitably sized double blind clinical trial?


----------



## JFTDWS (19 December 2015)

Mike007 said:



			One of the great skills of a good teacher is to know when to "dumb something down".
		
Click to expand...

I don't dumb it down because I don't teach lower levels...  The concepts of relativity and (basic) quantum theory are taught in schools, by the way.

The key point here is that we aren't talking about something which simply hasn't been proven or disproven - we're talking about something which has been extensively studied and shown to have no effect.  It's not really comparable with quantum entanglement on any level.  Homeopathy claims to have clear effects at a detectable level, and yet repeatedly has been shown not to in a number of well constructed trials.  Whilst vets do prescribe drugs which have not been tested in horses, and this is far from ideal, it is a different kettle of fish for _vets_ to offer treatments which have repeatedly been shown to have no effect.


----------



## Booboos (20 December 2015)

'Not proven' is an entirely different concept from 'proven to have no effect'.

All medical treatments start 'non proven'. They start with a hypothesis which is tested in laboratories, or evolves from anecdotal evidence, or develops from animal studies, etc. before moving on to human trials. At that stage there is some evidence that this may work but it is not proven. Generally treatments have to be fully tested before they are made widely available as this allows us to confirm the therapeutic benefits, identify side-effects and risks, etc. However it is not necessarily unethical to prescribe not proven therapies. In desperate cases, e.g. terminal conditions where all other options have been exhausted, it is ethical to try out not proven therapies in the hope they work.

'Proven not to work' interventions, like homeopathy, are always unethical because they have been shown not to have an effect. In addition they may offer false hope and cause patients to give up on conventional therapies, sometimes with catastrophic results.

While we have the right to refuse any kind of treatment and chose homeopathy for ourselves, we do not have the right to make such a choice on behalf of our horses. We are responsible for our horses' welfare and this specifically includes the duty to seek veterinary help if they are unwell (and veterinary is a by-word for efficacious here).

There have been cases of parents being prosecuted for 'treating' their children with homeopathic remedies rather than medicine and the children dying as a result. The same case could be made for horses although I doubt anyone would go to the trouble of prosecuting the owners.

http://deadstate.org/parents-charge...ating-toddlers-ear-infection-with-homeopathy/

The point of the OP as I understand it is exactly that vets have a duty of care to provide teatment and not magic water and it is unethical of them to prescribe homeopathy given that it has been proven to have no effect.


----------



## ycbm (20 December 2015)

Booboo I agree with everything else you are saying, but people DO have a right to treat their animals with whatever they want. A vet must diagnose, but anyone can treat.

Of course it's illegal not to give effective treatment (when it is available) to a sick horse. But most problems resolve with time anyway, so an owner giving sugar pills or expensive water is likely to see a result anyway. One of the two reasons, the other being wishful thinking, that people think homeopathy on horses works.

I had a horse rolling around in agony with colic once. By the time the vet arrived he was on his feet eating. If I'd given him homeopathy in the meantime I would have been telling the world it cures colic!


----------



## Danny Vet (20 December 2015)

ycbm said:



			Booboo I agree with everything else you are saying, but people DO have a right to treat their animals with whatever they want. A vet must diagnose, but anyone can treat.
		
Click to expand...

Almost... People can only treat their own animals, not other people's.  And even then, it is illegal for them to perform acts of veterinary surgery (eg castration) on their Own animals. Also, if suffering was caused they could be prosecuted for animal cruelty in extreme cases. 



ycbm said:



			I had a horse rolling around in agony with colic once. By the time the vet arrived he was on his feet eating. If I'd given him homeopathy in the meantime I would have been telling the world it cures colic!
		
Click to expand...

Your are exactly right, is happens all the time, and people have often give ske kind of drench/homeopathy/crystal healing while vet is en route and then swear by it afterwards!


----------



## Danny Vet (20 December 2015)

Mike007 said:



			Quantum entanglement was up until recently a nonsense idea until it was demonstrated. We have no idea still if its effects can be demonstrated beyond the subatomic level. I suspect that there is a lot of myth and mystery attached to Homeopathy but I cant dismiss it out of hand because we now know "God does play dice"
		
Click to expand...

Th mechanism as to how homeopathy supposedly works is irrelevant when meta-studies and systematic reviews have proven than, at least in a clinical setting, it has no effect on treating any type of disease at all.


----------



## tallyho! (20 December 2015)

This thread has taught me many things. 

One thing, is that perhaps, if vets were not able to treat using homeopathy, then so what?

There are many places where it is available. Anyway, why would you pay a vet when you can ask someone on facebook.


----------



## Overread (20 December 2015)

Tallyho - the thing is a lot of people don't keep up to date with the medical world. Unless you've an illness or condition chances are you won't be reading about the latest finds or such. As a result people put huge trust in doctors and vets in order for them to tell them what the proper treatment should be.

If vets are allowed to use homeopathic treatments there's a good chance that some will when the medical research shows that it gives no actual medical gain beyond placebo (which as already identified isn't going to work on animals). 

Whilst many might be aware of homeopathic lots won't; they will just hear a long word and be given some pills/treatment and will trust that their vet knows what is best.



This move is to protect those people from poor quality vets giving them missleading advice. I'm fairly sure that the mark-up and profit margins for homeopathic treatment are huge so its a big potential money earner and temptation


----------



## Mike007 (20 December 2015)

Overread said:



			This move is to protect those people from poor quality vets giving them misleading advice. I'm fairly sure that the mark-up and profit margins for homeopathic treatment are huge so its a big potential money earner and temptation
		
Click to expand...

Hardly! We still have plenty of poor quality vets prescribing and making a profit from vastly expensive drugs of little efficacy from the largest industry in the world, the pharmaceutical industry . They dont need to try to sell unpatentable treatments. In fact it is not in their interest to use any traditional treatment as there is no profit .


----------



## tallyho! (21 December 2015)

Overread said:



			Tallyho - the thing is a lot of people don't keep up to date with the medical world. Unless you've an illness or condition chances are you won't be reading about the latest finds or such. As a result people put huge trust in doctors and vets in order for them to tell them what the proper treatment should be.

If vets are allowed to use homeopathic treatments there's a good chance that some will when the medical research shows that it gives no actual medical gain beyond placebo (which as already identified isn't going to work on animals). 

Whilst many might be aware of homeopathic lots won't; they will just hear a long word and be given some pills/treatment and will trust that their vet knows what is best.



This move is to protect those people from poor quality vets giving them missleading advice. I'm fairly sure that the mark-up and profit margins for homeopathic treatment are huge so its a big potential money earner and temptation
		
Click to expand...

My comment was very tongue in cheek... apologies it didn't come across that way...

The sentiment was that, if vets take on virtually no responsibility for homeopathy and herbs then people will go off doing things without the proper research or advice. 

Excuse the flippant way I phrase my posts, but I am largely in favour of vets retaining some form of control and knowledge so the general public are not endangered by self-proclaimed practitioners and experts. Just pleading ignorance to the large "problem" will in time make the problem bigger. Like I said previously, desperation will make people seek out last ditch efforts.


----------



## chillipup (4 October 2016)

RCVS muddled over homeopathy. I received an update on this topic today for anyone interested.  Seems a very strange response by the RCVS www.vetsurgeon.org/news/b/veterinary_news/archive/2016/09/30/140108.aspx


----------



## tallyho! (5 October 2016)

chillipup said:



			RCVS muddled over homeopathy. I received an update on this topic today for anyone interested.  Seems a very strange response by the RCVS www.vetsurgeon.org/news/b/veterinary_news/archive/2016/09/30/140108.aspx

Click to expand...

Definitely in the stranger realms there. 

Like I said, people will still do what they like whether the RCVS make a statement one way or the other.


----------



## ycbm (5 October 2016)

chillipup said:



			RCVS muddled over homeopathy. I received an update on this topic today for anyone interested.  Seems a very strange response by the RCVS www.vetsurgeon.org/news/b/veterinary_news/archive/2016/09/30/140108.aspx

Click to expand...


That reply days only one thing, for me. 

'we have vets who are making a mint from offering homeopathic services that we know for sure don't work and compromise animal welfare but we don't want to upset them by banning their gravy train'. Shameful response from a professional organisation.


----------



## tallyho! (5 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			That reply days only one thing, for me. 

'we have vets who are making a mint from offering homeopathic services that we know for sure don't work and compromise animal welfare but we don't want to upset them by banning their gravy train'. Shameful response from a professional organisation.
		
Click to expand...

Meh. Nothing surprises me when it comes to animals.


----------



## ycbm (5 October 2016)

tallyho! said:



			Meh. Nothing surprises me when it comes to animals.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with you that people will still get homeopathy, btw. The difference is that if it's being given by a vet there is nothing the authorities can do. If it was being given by someone else and the animal was suffering, the keeper could be prosecuted.

It's utterly shameful that a professional body supports that situation


----------



## ash_vet (20 October 2016)

I was really disappointed in the RCVS response. My own governing body is either unable or unwilling to take a stand against homeopathy. Ive been graduated five years, and was taught strictly evidence based medicine. I am yet to see, read or hear any evidence in favour of homeopathy.

I have no problem with homeopathic remedies being offered by someone who is not a professional, but veterinary surgeons should not be providing this service without significant evidence that the treatments work. Horses do not perceive a placebo effect in the same way that humans can.

As far as I am concerned the RCVS has let down vets, clients and patients.


----------



## tristar (23 October 2016)

where is the evidence to prove that it does`nt work, but if they can`t prove that it does work, or `think that it does`nt` are they going to be bothered to find out if it does`nt. at one time the world was believed to be flat.

vets do lots of things that do work based on evidence, and still the animal dies.


----------



## ycbm (23 October 2016)

tristar said:



			where is the evidence to prove that it does`nt work, but if they can`t prove that it does work, or `think that it does`nt` are they going to be bothered to find out if it does`nt. at one time the world was believed to be flat.

vets do lots of things that do work based on evidence, and still the animal dies.
		
Click to expand...

It isn't possible to prove a negative. You can't prove that anything doesn't or won't ever happen.

You can't prove that sheep can't fly.

But after throwing a thousand sheep of a cliff and seing them go splat on the rocks, most people would accept that sheep can't fly.

As far as homeopathy goes, those thousand sheep were thrown over the cliff many years ago.

It doesn't matter how many times double blind trials are done to test homeopathy, and there have been many,  none of them ever work better than a placebo.


Homeopathy in humans works because the consultation is ninety minutes instead of the ten you get from a doctor normally. It's the listening that cures, not the homeopathy.


----------



## JFTDWS (23 October 2016)

tristar said:



			at one time the world was believed to be flat.
		
Click to expand...

Yea, up until what?  8000 years ago? Before we had any mathematics or science to speak of.  I'm not really sure that argument holds much water...  Unlike homeopathy which holds a great deal of water indeed.  Exclusively water, in fact.


----------



## Overread (23 October 2016)

tristar said:



			vets do lots of things that do work based on evidence, and still the animal dies.
		
Click to expand...

There are MANY examples where people have trusted homeopathy and died.

The difference is that, as stated, homeopathy has never been shown to ever work beyond placebo effect and psychological benefits of longer consultations. Meanwhile normal medicine has many testes where its shown positive results and actual cures. 

Homeopathy might help toward recovery from placebo but it won't cure cancer; it won't regrow bones or cure disease. 

When it comes to animals who have no concept that the pills they are given will help toward recovery and where there is no real consultation element; homeopathy offers nothing for the animal. It might help the owner, but it has no benefit to the animal beyond what normal water would give (and in all honesty with the dilutions they use in homeopathy normal water is all it really is)


----------



## tristar (24 October 2016)

as i left school aged 14 i am at a serious disadvantage  on here ha ha

however if god meant sheep to fly he would have given them wings, so i am lost on that argument.

homo is used in other forms not only water.

i thought it was a 15th century sailor that proved the world to be round by  not sailing off the edge

i have used homo on animals but forgot to tell them they recovered because  the treatment also involved a kiss and a hug.

i do find it a little arrogant to say if we can`t prove something it does`nt work, without thinking this could be due to our present scientific limitations in some measure.  

people buy homo products everyday off the shelf and without consultation.

if there is a placebo effect perhaps there is also one when administering conventional drugs and research into the influence of the power of the mind over  illness recovery in general would be interesting to see in the future as we learn more.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (24 October 2016)

tristar said:



			if there is a placebo effect perhaps there is also one when administering conventional drugs
		
Click to expand...

there are double blind clinical trials when it comes to drug development to demonstrate any differences between placebo and drug. 

the ancient Greeks were the first (afaik) to go on about the earth being round.


----------



## ycbm (24 October 2016)

tristar said:



			as i left school aged 14 i am at a serious disadvantage  on here ha ha

however if god meant sheep to fly he would have given them wings, so i am lost on that argument.
		
Click to expand...

The argument is that no-one is ever going to be able to prove that a sheep can't fly, because it's impossible to prove a negative statement. So no-one will ever be able to prove that homeopathy doesn't work. 





			i have used homo on animals but forgot to tell them they recovered because  the treatment also involved a kiss and a hug.
		
Click to expand...

They didn't recover because of the treatment. They recovered because of something called regression to the mean. Most illnesses in most animals  will regress to the mean and the animal  will recover. You could have saved your money and stuck to the kiss and hug and they would still have recovered.


----------



## tallyho! (24 October 2016)

Overread said:



			There are MANY examples where people have trusted homeopathy and died.
		
Click to expand...

So very very true. This is due to homeopathy being seen as a "last resort" treatment. It's something people reach for when convention has failed despite the RCT's and prospective long-term data.

I am a firm believer in not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. 

The RCTs show no difference, not a huge adverse event so there is "no difference" to modern medicine quote: Ben Goldacre. I quote Ben as he most prominent in opinion forming and propaganda - although not all of it!! It;s one mans opinion, not everyones and we are all free thinkers.

No difference is basically "as good as". The thing is, it's not without side effects however this is where "magic" and "science" might differ. The cost of managing side effects diverge. The cost to NHS of managing side effects of prescriptions are significant. You take ibuprofen? Here have some Omeprazole. You take Coagulants? Here have some anti-coagulants. 

Lets not dictate lives on just RCTs... they are not the answer to everything and are funded by interested parties with bias no matter how hidden. 

Where there's interest, there's money. 

Like i always say.... love a lot, trust a few, always paddle your own canoe. Never be blinkered by science. I've had a vested interest inscience since 1998 and the more I know, the more I get sceptical - mostly the other way! But do be careful!!! There's charlatans about of course and as it is not regulated, who knows what might occur!


----------



## tristar (24 October 2016)

strangely enough i was aware of aristotle and the other greek doubting the shape of earth, they did not however, attempt to sail off the edge of the earth to prove their point

i still think we are in the dark ages of knowledge and unaware of many things yet to be shown to work, i personally believe that the world is complete, ie nature provides a lot of its own cures in counterbalance to maladies.

i have seen ponies pick  willow herbal, to help themselves when they  have a known illness,maybe they know something we don`t, its a another strange thing that many years ago i observed animals recover through the passing of the normal progression and time span of a disease or infection  whether or not they received conventional veterinary intervention so you could say they regressed to the mean, but i would only say they got better on their own so i`d know what i`m talking about!  so there is a possibility that the animal would have recovered without the expensive vet treatment.

i do believe my pony got better through homo. she would not have recovered on her own because it was an allergy


many people buy homo products off the shelf, no consultation, on a repeat basis over a  long period.

and as for the sheep thing and proof, how about when it does work, who are people to tell others it does`nt work when it does  work for them personally.

double blind thingys, are they  real!!!   surely one either gets better or does`nt


----------



## ash_vet (25 October 2016)

At this stage I feel it is important to point out the difference between homeopathy and herbalism. Herbal medicines have been around for thousands of years, in fact large amounts of modern medicine is based around ancient herbal medicine. There are over 7000 substances regularly used in human medicines that are derived from plants.

Homeopathy however is a completely different beast. The theory (if you can call it such) is that a substance that causes symptoms of disease in a healthy person, is also capable of curing these symptoms in diseased people. To add to this already sketchy philosophy homeopathic medicines undergo a process known as homeopathic dilution. During this process molecules of the substance are diluted over and over again. The substance is then shook in a process known as succussion (imagine shaking a maraca over and over). At the end of this process no molecules of the initial substance remain.

I am not opposed to people trying homeopathy, in fact I will never tell a client not to use homeopathy. My issue is with people (veterinary surgeons and others) peddling hope and making money from clients who in many cases do not know better. Homeopathy is a pseudoscience, there is no scientific evidence for any of it. I understand that many times despite conventional medicines, animals do not recover but this is neither the vet nor the medicines fault. Sometimes animals just cannot be saved. 

On several occasions I have been presented with horses who have been too far gone, but owners have persisted with homeopathy for several weeks or even months. I know that in several of these cases I would have been able to improve these patients medical conditions with conventional medicines.

I frankly am quite fed up of homeopaths giving the saming answers to anyone who doubts the validity of homeopathy. The most common response from homeopaths is 'show me the evidence that it does not work?!?!?!?!' Seriously, people allow their animals to be treated on the back of this.

The day someone puts an evidence based study down in front of me, and shows me that homeopathy works, I will drop my arguments about it there and then, and becomes an advocate for it, however that will be the day that pigs.....or in the context of this thread sheep will fly.


----------



## ash_vet (25 October 2016)

This article by Ben Goldacre is well worth a read.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2007/nov/16/sciencenews.g2


----------



## ycbm (25 October 2016)

i have seen ponies pick willow herbal, to help themselves when they have a known illness,maybe they know something we don`t,
		
Click to expand...


You don't seem aware that willow contains salicylic acid. We know this as aspirin and Bazuka verruca gel. 

There is a world of difference between self medication using a plant with good and long proven medicinal properties, and believing that water can retain a memory of a molecule which it no longer contains.


----------



## tristar (25 October 2016)

i did know about the aspirin, i was trying say badly that  the pony actively sort to remedy the headache which was a symptom of its condition with herbal medicine which i find fascinating, and learned something from.

i would hate to be in that ben blokes shoes if proof is found it does work, he`s very angry! it reminds of the entrenched attitudes in favour of rollkur justified by numerous gold medals van grunsven style, and yet amazingly how when hester and co walked onto the scene it all evaporated in a new era,{ excuse the pun. a well known homo brand}, a dawning of not needing to torture horses to win medals, and rollkur is disproved and consigned to the dustbin of disproved theories. 

my experience is that a lot of conditions are not diagnosed correctly, i often have a vet ask me whats wrong with the horse or how did it progress,i have learned a lot from lack of diagnosis and been left to find a reason  for the condition and self diagnose, there seems to be a lot of inexperienced vets, they need to concentrate their energies on that area.


----------



## JFTDWS (25 October 2016)

tristar said:



			strangely enough i was aware of aristotle and the other greek doubting the shape of earth, they did not however, attempt to sail off the edge of the earth to prove their point
		
Click to expand...

Why would they when they didn't believe (on the basis of mathematics and astronomical observation) that there would be an "edge" to sail off?  It is well accepted that the middle ages / early modern flat earth doctrine is a myth, despite how commonly people cling to it.

I don't reckon Ben Goldacre's too worried.  He's angry because people cling to this sort of nonsense (much as people cling to the flat earth nonsense), despite the many, many trials in which homeopathy has been shown not to work.  Not a single trial of acceptable design has *ever* shown any benefit in homeopathy.  

This has nothing to do with how it works.  This is simply that nobody can show that it does work.  It's akin to me claiming that clapping your hands together three times and reciting a nifty little rhyme will protect you from catching 'flu' - because you'd see exactly the same sort of results with that as you would with homeopathy.  

But hey, maybe we should market that, because, y'know, just because science can't prove it doesn't mean it doesn't work - right?


----------



## Booboos (26 October 2016)

Aristotle did not need to attempt to sail off the edge of HHe earth to prove in was not flat, he used scientific methodology to deduce that it was round. He had three observations:
1 Certain stars disappear off the northern hemisphere as one travels south and the other way round.
2 the earth's shadow on the moon during a lunar eclipse is always a circle
3 Ships disappear off the horizon hull first whatever direction they are traveling.

Also homeopathy can only be delivered in water form as only water has memory. Any solid or other liquid form of homeopathy should be ineffective by the very claims of the theory. Although I don't think internal consistency ever bothered homeopaths!


----------



## tallyho! (26 October 2016)

ash_vet said:



			On several occasions I have been presented with horses who have been too far gone, but owners have persisted with homeopathy for several weeks or even months. I know that in several of these cases I would have been able to improve these patients medical conditions with conventional medicines.
		
Click to expand...

Now you've said the above, I actually think perhaps vets need to oversee the practice of homeopathy in order to protect animals/customers. How come if the animals were too far gone, you could have improved them with "conventional" medicines?


----------



## ycbm (26 October 2016)

tallyho! said:



			Now you've said the above, I actually think perhaps vets need to oversee the practice of homeopathy in order to protect animals/customers. How come if the animals were too far gone, you could have improved them with "conventional" medicines?
		
Click to expand...

I think he meant he could have helped them if he'd seen them earlier but by the time the owner accepted that the homeopathy had failed, the animal was beyond help.

The whole point is that homeopathy doesn't work Tallyho. How can any vet ethically oversee withholding effective treatment from a sick animal?


----------



## tallyho! (27 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			I think he meant he could have helped them if he'd seen them earlier but by the time the owner accepted that the homeopathy had failed, the animal was beyond help.

The whole point is that homeopathy doesn't work Tallyho. How can any vet ethically oversee withholding effective treatment from a sick animal?
		
Click to expand...

Hmm, no he said he was "presented with animals who have been too far gone, but owners persisted with homeopathy" so to me this reads that he had already dismissed them and then said he would have been able to help... no?

Yes, I agree ycbm, but sometimes conventional medicine doesn't work either. However, in my mind, if a doctor or a vet were to control/regulate the  practice, it would protect more people. As I work in pharma, I meet clinicians who also have this debate in real life and I know I'm not the only person who thinks this. 

Even if the professionals condemn it, it's not going to mean people will not continue to use homeopathy. The frustration continues.


----------



## Booboos (27 October 2016)

Just because someone is a trained vet doesn't mean they won't make mistakes.

Just because someone is a trained vet doesn't mean that they will always be able to diagnose a problem.

Just because something can treat a condition doesn't guarantee that it will always do so, or do so without undesirable side effects.

All of this can hold but it still doesn't make homeopathy work. In homeopathy you have something with:
- outrageously silly claims, e.g. water has memory
- claims that do not cohere with anything else we know about physics and chemistry, e.g. like cures like and dilution increases potency
- claims that are not even internally consistent, e.g. non-water homeopathic tablets should be impossible based on the theory itself
- and with a placebo effect.


----------



## ash_vet (27 October 2016)

tallyho! said:



			Hmm, no he said he was "presented with animals who have been too far gone, but owners persisted with homeopathy" so to me this reads that he had already dismissed them and then said he would have been able to help... no?

Yes, I agree ycbm, but sometimes conventional medicine doesn't work either. However, in my mind, if a doctor or a vet were to control/regulate the  practice, it would protect more people. As I work in pharma, I meet clinicians who also have this debate in real life and I know I'm not the only person who thinks this. 

Even if the professionals condemn it, it's not going to mean people will not continue to use homeopathy. The frustration continues.
		
Click to expand...

I actually meant exactly what YCBM stated. I have been presented with patients who have been treated with homeopathic remedies, in some cases this treatment has been allowed to persist for too long a period of time. When these homeopathic rememdies do not work, and I have been asked to try and treat a condition, I have often been left with a problem that is far more difficult to deal with. I have lost a horse who had a nasty wound over a tendon. Rather than call the vet, the horse was treated homeopathically for three weeks. By the time I got to see the leg, the infection had spread throughout the entire leg and the animal was unable to be saved with conventional medicines.

You say that it needs tighter control, it certainly does. Vets need to be banned from prescribing it. Vets are in a position where the majority of the members of the public trust our decision making. Therefore if you have a small minority of vets prescribing homeopathy, and a majority like myself who believe the whole thing to be a massive waste of time you end up with a mixed message.

There is a place for homeopathy, and unfortunately it falls in the same category as prayer, snake oil, drinking the blood of a bull etc. This is not a myth that vets should be peddling and providing false hope whilst making a financial gain.


----------



## ash_vet (27 October 2016)

Booboos said:



			Just because someone is a trained vet doesn't mean they won't make mistakes.

Just because someone is a trained vet doesn't mean that they will always be able to diagnose a problem.

Just because something can treat a condition doesn't guarantee that it will always do so, or do so without undesirable side effects.

All of this can hold but it still doesn't make homeopathy work. In homeopathy you have something with:
- outrageously silly claims, e.g. water has memory
- claims that do not cohere with anything else we know about physics and chemistry, e.g. like cures like and dilution increases potency
- claims that are not even internally consistent, e.g. non-water homeopathic tablets should be impossible based on the theory itself
- and with a placebo effect.
		
Click to expand...

very well put. vets are humans and are capable of making mistakes in the same way that a doctor will occasionally accidentally kill a patient. this does not make homeopathy an acceptable alternative to veterinary surgeons and conventional medicine.


----------



## ycbm (27 October 2016)

Even if the professionals condemn it, it's not going to mean people will not continue to use homeopathy. The frustration continues.
		
Click to expand...

If professionals condemn it, then people can be prosecuted for failing to obtain veterinary treatment for their animals.

If vets oversee it, or still worse actually administer it, those prosecutions are not possible.

There's no place, imo, for vets prescribing homeopathy. I'd go so far as to say it's scandalous that the BVA pay more attention to their members making a lot of money from it than they do to animal welfare.


----------



## tallyho! (27 October 2016)

ash_vet said:



			I actually meant exactly what YCBM stated. I have been presented with patients who have been treated with homeopathic remedies, in some cases this treatment has been allowed to persist for too long a period of time. When these homeopathic rememdies do not work, and I have been asked to try and treat a condition, I have often been left with a problem that is far more difficult to deal with. I have lost a horse who had a nasty wound over a tendon. Rather than call the vet, the horse was treated homeopathically for three weeks. By the time I got to see the leg, the infection had spread throughout the entire leg and the animal was unable to be saved with conventional medicines.

You say that it needs tighter control, it certainly does. Vets need to be banned from prescribing it. Vets are in a position where the majority of the members of the public trust our decision making. Therefore if you have a small minority of vets prescribing homeopathy, and a majority like myself who believe the whole thing to be a massive waste of time you end up with a mixed message.

There is a place for homeopathy, and unfortunately it falls in the same category as prayer, snake oil, drinking the blood of a bull etc. This is not a myth that vets should be peddling and providing false hope whilst making a financial gain.
		
Click to expand...




ycbm said:



			If professionals condemn it, then people can be prosecuted for failing to obtain veterinary treatment for their animals.

If vets oversee it, or still worse actually administer it, those prosecutions are not possible.

There's no place, imo, for vets prescribing homeopathy. I'd go so far as to say it's scandalous that the BVA pay more attention to their members making a lot of money from it than they do to animal welfare.
		
Click to expand...

Ok Ash vet, I obviously read it wrong. It can happen.

I see your point of view, I really do, however from where I see it, it solves nothing. 

Desperate people seek miracles.


----------



## ycbm (27 October 2016)

tallyho! said:



			Ok Ash vet, I obviously read it wrong. It can happen.

I see your point of view, I really do, however from where I see it, it solves nothing. 

Desperate people seek miracles.
		
Click to expand...

Let the desperate people seek a miracle after, or even at the same time as, giving the animal the treatment that is most likely to help it. Let them be prosecuted if they won't do that, the same as any of us would if we fail to seek treatment from a vet for a sick animal.

There's no place for vets making a profit from homeopathy, it's completely unethical.


----------



## chillipup (28 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			If professionals condemn it, then people can be prosecuted for failing to obtain veterinary treatment for their animals.

If vets oversee it, or still worse actually administer it, those prosecutions are not possible.

There's no place, imo, for vets prescribing homeopathy. I'd go so far as to say it's scandalous that the BVA pay more attention to their members making a lot of money from it than they do to animal welfare.
		
Click to expand...




ycbm said:



			Let the desperate people seek a miracle after, or even at the same time as, giving the animal the treatment that is most likely to help it. Let them be prosecuted if they won't do that, the same as any of us would if we fail to seek treatment from a vet for a sick animal.

There's no place for vets making a profit from homeopathy, it's completely unethical.
		
Click to expand...


Well said.


----------



## Booboos (28 October 2016)

Parents are certainly being prosecuted for not seeking appropriate medical treatment for their gravely ill children and relying instead on naturopaths and other quacks who peddle homeopathy, natural remedies and herbalism (the latter without any medical knowledge. I have nothing against using herbs which can be effective but in that case they should be classed as medications and prescribed by doctors with all the safeguards this brings with it).

The following is extremely distressing.

Recently a Canadian couple were found guilty when they left their toddler to die of meningitis while treating him with essence of garlic and similar stupidities. The court description of the child's last days as he dies with no medical treatment or palliative care is harrowing.

An Australian woman is also currently being prosecuted and her child has been removed from her care after she left her child's eczema untreated by proper medicine and relied on a naturopath's advice. The child's skin condition deteriorated so gravely that it became life threatening.

Some parents are also beginning to be prosecuted when their unvaccinated children have contracted preventable diseases, but don't get me on that.

The same principle of neglect for failing to seek appropriate medical care would apply to animals although practically no one would have the time or money to prosecute for this.


----------



## ycbm (28 October 2016)

Booboos the RSPCA  in the UK regularly prosecutes people for failing to obtain medical treatment for their animals. What they can't prosecute is someone whose VET is failing to provide medical treatment for their animals, which is why the BVA stance on vets providing homeopathy is so appalling.


----------



## tallyho! (28 October 2016)

ash_vet said:



			I actually meant exactly what YCBM stated. I have been presented with patients who have been treated with homeopathic remedies, in some cases this treatment has been allowed to persist for too long a period of time. When these homeopathic rememdies do not work, and I have been asked to try and treat a condition, I have often been left with a problem that is far more difficult to deal with. I have lost a horse who had a nasty wound over a tendon. Rather than call the vet, the horse was treated homeopathically for three weeks. By the time I got to see the leg, the infection had spread throughout the entire leg and the animal was unable to be saved with conventional medicines.
		
Click to expand...

I apologise, I read it wrong.


----------



## Booboos (29 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			Booboos the RSPCA  in the UK regularly prosecutes people for failing to obtain medical treatment for their animals. What they can't prosecute is someone whose VET is failing to provide medical treatment for their animals, which is why the BVA stance on vets providing homeopathy is so appalling.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks ycbm, I didn't realize that. What a mess!


----------

