# Barefoot people - how is this OK?????



## Amaranta (22 March 2012)

http://sarahbellbarefoottrimming.com/buy/barefoot-trim-beginner-guide-ebook/


----------



## ladyt25 (22 March 2012)

Oh my word!!!


----------



## Amaranta (22 March 2012)

Indeed would be interested to hear how anyone can defend this tbh


----------



## ester (22 March 2012)

I think I will pass... 

I'm not sure anyone has ever said that it requires a strong man to trim a horses hooves and from what I read most 'performance barefoot' horses do so much work the self trim anyway and do not require an angle grinder


----------



## Nocturnal (22 March 2012)

Who said it was ok?


----------



## Meowy Catkin (22 March 2012)

Nocturnal said:



			Who said it was ok? 

Click to expand...

I don't think that anyone has ever said that it was OK. 

I have been told that cows hooves are often trimmed with angle grinders, but the cow is in a crush (leg being trimmed secured) and trimmers have been known to lose fingers even so!


----------



## joeanne (22 March 2012)

Her middle names sum her up perfectly.......
I'd shoot her myself before allowing her access to one of my horses!
And she recommends you use her (probably exceedingly expensive) "remedy" for the transition to being barefoot.


----------



## Amaranta (22 March 2012)

joeanne said:



			Her middle names sum her up perfectly.......
I'd shoot her myself before allowing her access to one of my horses!
And she recommends you use her (probably exceedingly expensive) "remedy" for the transition to being barefoot.

Click to expand...

Oh we so need a like button on here


----------



## joeanne (22 March 2012)

Bottom of the thread my dear.......admin pointed it out to me earlier!


----------



## Amaranta (22 March 2012)

Ohhhhhh so there is


----------



## Pearlsasinger (22 March 2012)

Scary stuff!

The real trouble, of course, is that some numpty somewhere will think it's a good idea.  We can only hope that any-one who tries it will indeed lose a finger or two.


----------



## amandap (22 March 2012)

I've come across this site before. Nuff said.


----------



## Oberon (22 March 2012)

The Barefoot Taliban has come across this site before a few years ago.

We do not advocate such methods and encourage all owners of barefoot horses to employ the services of a recommended hoof care professional who has many, sound horses on their books, has undertaken some form of formal training and carries adequate insurance.

We are trying to compile a list of recommended trimmers here
http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/about133.html

There is plenty of excellent advice on hooves and keeping horses barefoot for free, online. There is no need to purchase an ebook.

Regarding the use of power tools....trimming horses is hard work and power tools have been used successfully by disabled persons trimming horses in a desert environment.

But it is not something that is appropriate for the UK.


----------



## cptrayes (22 March 2012)

I actually think I'd rather someone used a power tool on my horses feet than in their mouths. And no-one has a problem watching a farrier burn the foot away to fit a shoe  (I know they shouldn't, but they *do*).  Or use 14 inch handled nippers which have a _*phenomenal*_ torque.

I haven't watched the video, no point, I find a sharp professional's rasp perfectly adequate for my guys' feet.


----------



## FionaM12 (22 March 2012)

I wonder why she didn't get someone to proof read her site. It says, "I am a women, and I trim all our horses hooves with very little psychical effort."

Which means, of course, she's several females and doesn't have to use much mind-power to trim hooves.


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (22 March 2012)

i wouldnt jump all over her too quickly-how many of you do a complete trim on  established barefoot feet in the middle of a dry summer and thus know the effort involved?

even a sharp rasp will struggle on very hard dry feet.

i dont do a full trim on the big guys as teh arthrtis in my back will not allow it, but used to trim the shetty and it is hard hard work, sweating and panting hard work to accurately balance those tiny iron feet!!!! 
my trimmer taught me to trim, and i know she uses power tools on some of the ponies, none of the 3 biggies need it as are partially self trimming so not much to come off but i can understand why she does and would have been happy for her to use them on the ponies feet if she had wanted.

as far as power tools in mouth goes-am more than happy to let the edt do it, he's IMO the top guy in the UK and i dont know anyone thats had a problem with his work.

they are only there to reduce effort, tired arms makes mistakes and all that, these tools are a god send when the job is a remedial case, or been left too long, or for a trimmer with a bad back etc.

eta-not saying they should be used as standard or that none of you know how hard work trimming can be, just saying, they CAN be used for good not evil!!!!


----------



## NU ABO (22 March 2012)

Urgh, who could ever think that this was a good idea. Not only the DIY trimming, but also boasting about how little time it takes.

My boys barefoot and I'm changing farrier because I don't think he takes enough time trimming my boys feet. Just because he's barefoot, doesn't mean you can go about it half-arsed.


----------



## Oberon (22 March 2012)

Problem is, a BF horse can go from sound to lame with one too many strokes of a rasp....

We're talking millimetres of leeway here.

It's just too easy to hurt a horse with a power tool.

And the trimmer in question has a reputation that suggests so 

Less is more.


----------



## cptrayes (22 March 2012)

I don't think any of us have ever used an angle grinder that tiny, it's not like the one my OH uses to cut up Yorkstone paving, it's miniscule. I suspect it is difficult to do much damage with it, depending on what disc she is using in it, it's little more than a rotary sander.


----------



## cptrayes (22 March 2012)

NU ABO said:



			Urgh, who could ever think that this was a good idea. Not only the DIY trimming, but also boasting about how little time it takes.

My boys barefoot and I'm changing farrier because I don't think he takes enough time trimming my boys feet. Just because he's barefoot, doesn't mean you can go about it half-arsed.
		
Click to expand...

Don't forget that in the US farriers are not registered and anyone can shoe a horse. I'd rather people did a DIY trim than a DIY shoeing job, or used some of the butchers that operate in the US in the name of professional farriery.


----------



## maisie06 (22 March 2012)

Amaranta said:



http://sarahbellbarefoottrimming.com/buy/barefoot-trim-beginner-guide-ebook/

Click to expand...

EFF ME!!!! I'm speechless!!! that should NOT be legal....


----------



## Bikerchickone (22 March 2012)

Oh my god! The thought that anyone would use a book to 'learn' to do something like this seriously worries me! My boy is at Rockley at the moment and the one thing Nic says is that as long as you do a reasonably decent amount of roadwork the horse will trim its own feet exactly how they want them. I intend on keeping my Farrier on to check my lad every couple of months but that's all I'll be doing.


----------



## cptrayes (22 March 2012)

maisie06 said:



			EFF ME!!!! I'm speechless!!! that should NOT be legal....
		
Click to expand...

Which, the use of a power tool or the DIY trimming from a book?


----------



## YorksG (22 March 2012)

maisie06 said:



			EFF ME!!!! I'm speechless!!! that should NOT be legal....
		
Click to expand...

Agree with that!
Anyone who has ever used an angle grinder, with a cutting wheel on it, will know that it is a dangerous bit of kit, not something I would ever consider using near anything which had soft tissue within slipping/moving range. Never mind a novice user of it, going anywhere near a hoof!


----------



## Amaranta (22 March 2012)

This woman makes me shudder and I also worry that some idiot will think it ok to take her advice - am glad that most barefooters seem to have more sense but I find it absolutely astounding that someone can actually seriously set herself up as an expert like this, she does your barefoot cause no favours 

Is there a governing body that a complaint could be made to?  I really think this woman should be stopped from spouting her garbage at novice trimmers.


----------



## Beausmate (23 March 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I don't think any of us have ever used an angle grinder that tiny, it's not like the one my OH uses to cut up Yorkstone paving, it's miniscule. I suspect it is difficult to do much damage with it, depending on what disc she is using in it, it's little more than a rotary sander.
		
Click to expand...

My OH uses one that size to cut steel.  You could easily sever a tendon with one like that.  Angle grinders scare the pants off me-I wouldn't want one within 10 feet of my horse!!

My fully trained, fit young farrier takes 15 minutes to trim on average.


----------



## mandwhy (23 March 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Don't forget that in the US farriers are not registered and anyone can shoe a horse. I'd rather people did a DIY trim than a DIY shoeing job, or used some of the butchers that operate in the US in the name of professional farriery.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I found this in Italy too when I did some stable work experience there, my boss said it was really hard to find someone who had decent skills to UK sort of standard in the area, and people told me lots of horrible stories. We could forget about remedial or specialist shoeing! If I lived somewhere like that I would be tempted to learn to trim myself, but on a proper course, not from a mis-spelt website.

Also I don't see the problem with appropriately designed power tools (used by a professional). Imagine if the dentist used a hand drill and chisel every time you needed a filling :-/


----------



## lazybee (23 March 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I don't think any of us have ever used an angle grinder that tiny, it's not like the one my OH uses to cut up Yorkstone paving, it's miniscule. I suspect it is difficult to do much damage with it, depending on what disc she is using in it, it's little more than a rotary sander.
		
Click to expand...

I have a 4" mini grinder and I have to say you have very good control and can they can be used with great dexterity. You certainly wouldn't use a cutting disc. Lots of different type of discs are available. They are fitted with a guard and a release power switch. Would I use it my horses for regular trimming NO.
Possibly in an emergency.


The UKs leading Self-Taught High Performance Barefoot Trimmer ?.......I doubt it


----------



## Ladydragon (23 March 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I don't think any of us have ever used an angle grinder that tiny, it's not like the one my OH uses to cut up Yorkstone paving, it's miniscule. I suspect it is difficult to do much damage with it, depending on what disc she is using in it, it's little more than a rotary sander.
		
Click to expand...

I've got a little 4.5" grinder - it has something like a 12k rpm and is perfectly good at cutting metals and patio paving slabs...  You can do a lot of damage with it and as the smaller ones aren't that heavy in the body they can unexpectedly 'bounce' if they hit a hard spot both cutting or debrading...

A "how to" guide for a novice to start using one on a horses hoof is mind boggling...


----------



## Chavhorse (23 March 2012)

bikerchickone said:



			Oh my god! The thought that anyone would use a book to 'learn' to do something like this seriously worries me! My boy is at Rockley at the moment and the one thing Nic says is that as long as you do a reasonably decent amount of roadwork the horse will trim its own feet exactly how they want them. I intend on keeping my Farrier on to check my lad every couple of months but that's all I'll be doing.
		
Click to expand...

That is where we are finally!  My wonderful farrier pitches up to the yard checks Vardi's feet and 8 times out of 10 says "nope he is doing a wonderful job of trimming himself and doing me out of a job" in the last 3 visits the only action his rasp has seen is to sort out one rough edge.

Horse is as sound as a bell.


----------



## HarlequinSeren (23 March 2012)

Having seen some nasty accidents with angle grinders (both small and big!) the thought of that makes me feel sick 
There is so much potential there for something to go wrong, if the hand slips or horse moves unexpectedly.. Maybe a professional can use one safely (or at least as safely as it can be) but there is no way she should be encouraging novice trimmers to use one.


----------



## Ladyinred (23 March 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			I wonder why she didn't get someone to proof read her site. It says, "I am a women, and I trim all our horses hooves with very little psychical effort."

Which means, of course, she's several females and doesn't have to use much mind-power to trim hooves. 

Click to expand...

She also claims to be psychic. I would prefer her to not use PHYSICAL effort lol.


----------



## Amymay (23 March 2012)

This is why it's only a farrier that will ever go near my horse's feet.


----------



## amandap (23 March 2012)

I don't have much of a problem with using an appropriate grinder in principle, BUT let's face it how many owners are very proficient with power tools? Add to that learning to trim. As Oberon says it's far, far too easy to take too much off which is often the biggest problem with trimming. 

As for only ever using a Farrier, scroll down to the second photo.  http://www.equipodiatry.com/long_toe_underrun.html


----------



## Amymay (23 March 2012)

amandap said:



			As for only ever using a Farrier, scroll down to the second photo.  http://www.equipodiatry.com/long_toe_underrun.html

Click to expand...

What has this got to do with us here in the UK?  Anyone can shoe a horse in the US.


----------



## amandap (23 March 2012)

Oh, do I really have to trawl for examples of bad UK shoeing?


----------



## Amymay (23 March 2012)

amandap said:



			Oh, do I really have to trawl for examples of bad UK shoeing? 

Click to expand...

Oh there will be lots of examples of bad UK shoeing - I won't make you go and look for them

I guess my POV is that I want to give my horses the best chance of being happy in their feet (with or without shoes).  And to do this I use the best, professionally trained person I can.  For me that is a farrier (and in my case an excellent one).

I'm really not anti barefoot - have had horses barefoot.  My concern is over the unregulated nature of 'barefoot' trimmers.  And the book in the original OP just goes to highlight those concerns.  Learn from a book, and use a power tool.  No one can believe that to be sensible can they.......?


----------



## maggiesmum (23 March 2012)

amymay said:



			This is why it's only a farrier that will ever go near my horse's feet.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for tarring all trimmers with the same brush as Ms Bell - much appreciated! 


I know a chap who managed to 'notch' out a 1.5" slot from his shin bone with just that type of grinder - admittedly it had a cutting blade in it at the time but still.... it was pretty unpleasant! The trouble with power tools is that what would be a mm too much with a hand rasp could be a cm too much with a grinder! 
And that she advocates owners trimming their own horses with no instruction or knowledge makes a total mockery of everything we do and stand for, I have no problem with owners trimming their own but it looks much easier than it is and less is most definitely more!


----------



## Amymay (23 March 2012)

deleted.


----------



## amandap (23 March 2012)

amymay said:



			Oh there will be lots of examples of bad UK shoeing - I won't make you go and look for them

I guess my POV is that I want to give my horses the best chance of being happy in their feet (with or without shoes).  And to do this I use the best, professionally trained person I can.  For me that is a farrier (and in my case an excellent one).

I'm really not anti barefoot - have had horses barefoot.  My concern is over the unregulated nature of 'barefoot' trimmers.  And the book in the original OP just goes to highlight those concerns.  Learn from a book, and use a power tool.  No one can believe that to be sensible can they.......?
		
Click to expand...

Oh goody! 

You have every right to your well considered opinion but there are poor farriers as well as poor trimmers. The most common thing with shoeing seems to be not addressing other issues and shoeing and shaping a hoof that really needs other changes in it's life to improve. Mechanical means can only go so far in some cases. 

Perhaps we should start saying we will only use a 'good' hoof care professional.  That does mean we have to learn so we can judge as best we can though. 

Anyway this thread is about teaching a trim to non professionals so I'll stop going off topic.


----------



## ester (23 March 2012)

I didn't have an issue with the grinder per se, it was more that it was on the tools list for when you are trimming after reading her excellent guide to how to trim .


----------



## YasandCrystal (23 March 2012)

If you choose to have your horse BF and you are working the horse regularly the feet should actually need very little if any intervention frankly, so I find this teaching owners to use power tools a terrible idea. 

The whole point to me of barefoot is to let the horse be as natural as possible - that includes conformation warts and all and the feet will wear according to the horse's conformation. This is imo why so many unsoundness issues disappear when a horse goes BF, because the feet can wear unevenly, relieving the joints of stress.

A good farrier will take into account a horse's natural action and wear and unless he is dealing with a very young horse in which the bones have not set he will not try to straighten the horse as this will only lead to eventual unsoundness. My husband  regularly recommends BF wherever he thinks a horse and owner are suited to it.


----------



## TuscanBunnyGirl (23 March 2012)

mandwhy said:



			Yes I found this in Italy too when I did some stable work experience there, my boss said it was really hard to find someone who had decent skills to UK sort of standard in the area, and people told me lots of horrible stories. We could forget about remedial or specialist shoeing! If I lived somewhere like that I would be tempted to learn to trim myself, but on a proper course, not from a mis-spelt website.

Also I don't see the problem with appropriately designed power tools (used by a professional). Imagine if the dentist used a hand drill and chisel every time you needed a filling :-/
		
Click to expand...

I currently live in Italy and I can totally agree. Finding a decent vet and farrier or even someone to handle a horse is a blooooming niiightmare!! I bought my mare from someone who had been galloping her around from god knows what ages then put into foal at 2.5yrs with a long shanked bit with metal bits bent round it like a cherry roller but the bits of metal were really thin and sticking out. She had a locking stifle and one vet came out just to give the all clear and didn't have a clue what it was despite me telling him and demanded she was put on a syringe of bute everyday...i got another vet out (who is fantastic!) and he said exercise obv. 
Plenty of other horror stories but shall not hijack the thread any longer


----------



## MagicMelon (23 March 2012)

Erm, my barefoot trimmer uses a variation of an angle grinder.  She doesnt use it in the way you're thinking though like chopping big bits off or anything.  I personally would never do it (and my trimmer would never encourage me to do so) but then I would never want to trim my own horses feet anyway.  I dont really see the problem with what tools are used as long as the horse is happy about it and at the end of it.  My ponies hooves have never looked better and they are 10 times sounder than when I used to have them shod (one especially used to get 2 absesses a year when shod but not had one since being barefoot)!


----------



## Oberon (23 March 2012)

maggiesmum said:



			Thanks for tarring all trimmers with the same brush as Ms Bell - much appreciated! 


I know a chap who managed to 'notch' out a 1.5" slot from his shin bone with just that type of grinder - admittedly it had a cutting blade in it at the time but still.... it was pretty unpleasant! The trouble with power tools is that what would be a mm too much with a hand rasp could be a cm too much with a grinder! 
And that she advocates owners trimming their own horses with no instruction or knowledge makes a total mockery of everything we do and stand for, I have no problem with owners trimming their own but it looks much easier than it is and less is most definitely more!
		
Click to expand...

And let's add to that the unpredictable nature of the horse. When you are working underneath a horse, you are extremely vulnerable at the best of times....add power tools to that and YIKES!

You just need the horse to spook the once while you are under there 
	
	
		
		
	


	




.


----------



## ester (23 March 2012)

I think there is also a bit of a designed for purpose issue here too perhaps? electric rasps are designed to be electric rasps (I don't know that much about them though having only seen one once!), bench grinders.. well they possibly didn't have horses feet in mind and the safety implications that perhaps come with that when they were designing them.


----------



## sarelis (23 March 2012)

There is no way in this world that I would be tempted to take an angle grinder to my horse's hooves! I won't employ an EDT who uses power tools as a matter of course either. Too much accidental damage can be done in so little time. Think I'll stick with my farrier, thanks!


----------



## Oliviaandsparrow (23 March 2012)

About the EDT with power tools - have you ever actually felt one? They are not sharp, at all. As in, I have had one (turned on) run across my finger and its like a felt pad. They are designed to remove enamel etc, they do not cut flesh


----------



## cptrayes (23 March 2012)

Oliviaandsparrow said:



			About the EDT with power tools - have you ever actually felt one? They are not sharp, at all. As in, I have had one (turned on) run across my finger and its like a felt pad. They are designed to remove enamel etc, they do not cut flesh 

Click to expand...


Enamel is a lot harder than flesh, I'm sure they can remove flesh if they can remove enamel, applied with the right pressure and if the flesh mash is washed out of the cutting edges as you go!

They can also burn and they can be overused. There has been a horse on this forum who had such a burnt tongue that he would not eat, probably because his teeth got so hot from the dremel. He'll be lucky if his teeth are still alive and keep growing. And an EDT/Vet dual qualified, scalped my horse's teeth so flat that he has not had anything to take off them for over two years now. 

All tools can be wrongly used and personally I don't think there's anything wrong with a small angle grinder *with the right disc on it*, for doing really tough hooves. With the right disc it is not a power cutter it is simply a powerful sander.


The woman is an idiot, of course, you can tell that from her website. I'd love to read the book but I'm *****ed if I'm paying her for it, I can get a free laugh watching the telly


----------



## cptrayes (23 March 2012)

ester said:



			I think there is also a bit of a designed for purpose issue here too perhaps? electric rasps are designed to be electric rasps (I don't know that much about them though having only seen one once!), bench grinders.. well they possibly didn't have horses feet in mind and the safety implications that perhaps come with that when they were designing them.
		
Click to expand...

Ester the early power tools that dentists began to use were not designed for horse teeth, they were multi-purpose dremels. The need for horse tools was established by the unorthodox use by horse dentists. I predict the same will happen here and that in future there will be a range of power tools for farriers and trimmers designed for the job.


----------



## ester (23 March 2012)

ah I didn't realise that!  *slopes back off to her corner  *


----------



## giveitago (23 March 2012)

Well, i went one further and contacted her to request she remove her 'book' from sale. 

I pointed out she may be liable for any horses that may go lame as a result of her trimming advice. Or, possibly the death of some. 

Somehow, money speaks louder than care in these cases and I hope someone will alert her to the dangers of her trimming before we lose dozens of horses like the strasser situation a few years ago.


----------



## marc (23 March 2012)

I use a dremel for hoof wall resections and debriding hoof wall cracks, however they are easily shut off and as long as you leg wrap the chances of damage are very minimal. Angle grinders are workshop tools and shouldnt be near horses feet, if you dont have the knowledge of how to sharpen a hoof knife then you shouldn't be trimming a horse END OF! A sharp knife is a safe knife. 

The problem these days is we have all these horse hippys that like to feed their herbs and keep their horse barefoot even if its slowly crippling them. They are just as cruel as the folks who dont feed their horses. Of course there are many horses that cope brilliantly with no shoes and correct trimming. I have never seen a well balanced hoof by a barefoot trimmer that allows the hoof to function naturally and remain sound


----------



## amandap (23 March 2012)

marc said:



			I have never seen a well balanced hoof by a barefoot trimmer that allows the hoof to function naturally and remain sound
		
Click to expand...

Oh dear. What a shame because there are one or two. 
http://www.barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2012/03/stunning-barefoot-trot-beats-snow.html

Cop a load of this BF hoof trimmed by a trimmer.  Ever seen a shod one like it?
http://www.barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/in-eye-of-beholder.html

Here's a few more. http://www.right2remainshoeless.com/html/pin_up_s.html


----------



## cptrayes (23 March 2012)

marc said:



			I have never seen a well balanced hoof by a barefoot trimmer that allows the hoof to function naturally and remain sound
		
Click to expand...

There are four on this horse Marc:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-EuL6xpZs-q4/TqCNep9gtKI/AAAAAAAAAxM/K6BUGQ9p5ZA/s400/radar+hedge.jpg


There are eight more on my other two horses. You really don't move in the right circles, you know, there are hundreds of us with horses with great barefoot feet


----------



## amandap (23 March 2012)

Just look at this laminitic go on his trimmer trimmed hooves. From the same blog above. http://www.barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2011/03/shining-light-on-laminitis.html

I wont bother to bore everyone with more stuff that inspires me.


----------



## abitodd (23 March 2012)

Amaranta said:



			This woman makes me shudder and I also worry that some idiot will think it ok to take her advice - am glad that most barefooters seem to have more sense but I find it absolutely astounding that someone can actually seriously set herself up as an expert like this, she does your barefoot cause no favours 

Is there a governing body that a complaint could be made to?  I really think this woman should be stopped from spouting her garbage at novice trimmers.
		
Click to expand...

Sadly she or anyone can set themselves up as an expert because there is yet to be a governing body for barefoot trimmers. The animal wellfare groups are keen to create regulations and standards. Let's hope they do.


----------



## amandap (23 March 2012)

Some of the barefoot organizations, and farriers I believe, have been working with LANTRA for some while (years lol) now to agree standards for trimming.


----------



## YorksG (23 March 2012)

abitodd said:



			Sadly she or anyone can set themselves up as an expert because there is yet to be a governing body for barefoot trimmers. The animal wellfare groups are keen to create regulations and standards. Let's hope they do.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree with this.


----------



## abitodd (23 March 2012)

marc said:



			The problem these days is we have all these horse hippys that like to feed their herbs and keep their horse barefoot even if its slowly crippling them. They are just as cruel as the folks who dont feed their horses. Of course there are many horses that cope brilliantly with no shoes and correct trimming. I have never seen a well balanced hoof by a barefoot trimmer that allows the hoof to function naturally and remain sound
		
Click to expand...

All that time spent in your apprenticeship on lighting the forge was not wasted then. You certainly know how to fan the flames!


----------



## abitodd (23 March 2012)

amandap said:



			Some of the barefoot organizations, and farriers I believe, have been working with LANTRA for some while (years lol) now to agree standards for trimming.
		
Click to expand...

They are,I believe STILL working on the minimum standard and have yet to decide on a governing body. It is most likely to be the WCF.


----------



## ester (23 March 2012)

abitodd said:



			Sadly she or anyone can set themselves up as an expert because there is yet to be a governing body for barefoot trimmers. The animal wellfare groups are keen to create regulations and standards. Let's hope they do.
		
Click to expand...

Surely there has to be some onus on the owner though to check out whoever they are letting loose on their horses feet, there are I think at least two lists of registered trimmers in the UK (there might be another too ) and it is possible to find out what the training has involved/required via the internet. 

Having spent some time looking at insurance documents of late it is a stipulation that feet (and teeth, for which I think the situ is the same, plenty of non registered/qualified dentists still) have been seen to by a qualified professional on a regular basis. I have wondered how that works with trimmers, I would assume that if you could indicate that they were a member of one of the aforementioned bodies that this might suffice. (someone else might like to elaborate here!)


----------



## abitodd (23 March 2012)

ester said:



			Surely there has to be some onus on the owner though to check out whoever they are letting loose on their horses feet, there are I think at least two lists of registered trimmers in the UK (there might be another too ) and it is possible to find out what the training has involved/required via the internet. 

Having spent some time looking at insurance documents of late it is a stipulation that feet (and teeth, for which I think the situ is the same, plenty of non registered/qualified dentists still) have been seen to by a qualified professional on a regular basis. I have wondered how that works with trimmers, I would assume that if you could indicate that they were a member of one of the aforementioned bodies that this might suffice. (someone else might like to elaborate here!)
		
Click to expand...

Most insurance companies only recognise those qualified with WCF.


----------



## marc (24 March 2012)

certification and registration of barefoot trimmers will be the best thing to protect horse welfare, hopefully one day it will come but until then horses will have to suffer from poor workmanship and propaganda. Registration will make them liable for their actions


----------



## annunziata (24 March 2012)

OMG!!!!  My BF is a barefoot trimmer and it took him three years to qualify!!!!!!!!  I could not imagine reading this and getting a sander to my horses feet!!


----------



## amandap (24 March 2012)

marc said:



			certification and registration of barefoot trimmers will be the best thing to protect horse welfare, hopefully one day it will come but until then horses will have to suffer from poor workmanship and propaganda. Registration will make them liable for their actions
		
Click to expand...

Registration doesn't protect horses from some farriers. 

I do think owners need to check for themselves about insurance and speak to clients. Owners educating themselves is vital imo. Registration of some body doesn't mean protection in any sphere of life. There's been the odd murderous doctor etc. etc.


----------



## amandap (24 March 2012)

Here's the link to the NOS Standards for barefoot care. http://www.lantra.co.uk/getattachme...4d/Equine-Barefoot-Care-NOS-(April-2010).aspx


----------



## cptrayes (24 March 2012)

abitodd said:



			Sadly she or anyone can set themselves up as an expert because there is yet to be a governing body for barefoot trimmers. The animal wellfare groups are keen to create regulations and standards. Let's hope they do.
		
Click to expand...




YorksG said:



			Totally agree with this.
		
Click to expand...

They already exist. What does not exist is anyone prepared to pay to police them. The trimming organisations haven't the money and aren't the ones causing the problem and no-one else wants to pay.


----------



## cptrayes (24 March 2012)

marc said:



			certification and registration of barefoot trimmers will be the best thing to protect horse welfare, hopefully one day it will come but until then horses will have to suffer from poor workmanship and propaganda. Registration will make them liable for their actions
		
Click to expand...

Marc it did not protect me from farriers who slowly lamed my horses over several years of apparently good shoeing, so can you go preach somewhere else, your profession are not saints. For a start, there are hundreds of you taking money for shoeing horses who you surely MUST know don't need them - cobs with great feet, tiny ponies, people who only ever ride in an arena etc etc
And most of you get a footie barefoot horse and the first thing you suggest is "put shoes on it" when all it needs is a diet change.

Now, if you want a sensible debate like Moorman and A Guilding join in, please help up with your knowledge. If all you want is a fight, then carry on by all means but all you are doing is bringing your own profession into disrepute.


There are a* huge* number of people on this forum whose horses have highly functional barefoot hooves trimmed by trimmers (and although I don't recommend it, I learned from a book!) including dozens who have horses who were due to be retired or put to sleep because their farriers could do no more for them, who are now in full work barefoot.

Please stop insulting us and get into the real world.


----------



## LucyPriory (24 March 2012)

I can not and would not endorse the behaviour of individuals who suggest horse owners learn to trim by book or use tools for which they have no training.  Fortunately unlike apples, one bad individual doesn't (necessarily) sour the whole pot.

Which is why when I come across good farriery on my travels I am happy to applaud it. And I have found some examples.  One in the London area and another in Surrey.

But among the gems I am more likely to come across this type of example:-

The farrier (who at the time trained a lot of apprentices) who wanted to shoe and pad my two year old.  (apparently born with rubbish feet and she would be dead without shoeing by 5-7.  She had great feet and when old enough happily did 50 plus miles a week on the road.)

The apprentice farrier (apprenticed to one of the 'biggies') who sincerely believes that stretched white lines are caused by the hooves getting wet. Diet apparently isn't relevant. So I guess if we all get our horses in when it rains and avoid puddles like the plague laminitis will be a thing of the past?

The award winning farrier who allowed a horse's heels to get so high the horse was crippled - to the point the farrier advised that horse to be PTS (sound two weeks into barefoot).  And same farrier allowed another horse to tin can so badly he kept falling (sound more or less immediately barefoot). 

The 'barefoot specialist' farrier who lamed my sound horse every time he put a rasp to her feet and smacked my rescue horse (already terrified of men) in the face.  (Apparently she looked at him 'funny'.)

The farrier (again one of the 'biggies') who with the benefit of x-rays tried to straighten the foot of a horse with wonky legs.  The resulting damage to the knee was clearly visible on x-ray.  But they kept on doing it and eventually the horse was PTS.

And the farrier who thought it was a good idea to completely burn the heels out of a horse with a hot shoe?  That one will be a long time coming sound, but he is, slowly, slowly improving. 

I could go on.


----------



## MerrySherryRider (24 March 2012)

Must be by luck more than judgement that there are any sound shod horses then. 
I'll be looking for barefoot horses at the olympics, seeing as farriers are laming everything they put a shoe on or do they have barefoot trimmers advising on the squad ?


----------



## amandap (24 March 2012)

LucyPriory said:



			The apprentice farrier (apprenticed to one of the 'biggies') who sincerely believes that stretched white lines are caused by the hooves getting wet. Diet apparently isn't relevant. So I guess if we all get our horses in when it rains and avoid puddles like the plague laminitis will be a thing of the past?
		
Click to expand...

This is the sort of thing owners really do need to learn about. What a truly healthy hoof should look like and what are the danger signs to be aware of. The days of relying on any professional are gone if you want the best for your horse, you have to educate yourself. So much info is available free on the internet.

The barefoot movement is questioning every aspect of many traditional practices and the scale of horses being badly done to is being realized, times are certainly changing and the horse and owners will only benefit. Seeing horses hooves that are indicating all sorts of problems is so 'normal' many of us don't/didn't even realize there might be something very wrong.

Are apprentices only attached to a single farrier? If so this is one thing that needs to change imo.

Oh and while I'm on a roll... the hoof really is connected to the horse.


----------



## amandap (24 March 2012)

horserider said:



			Must be by luck more than judgement that there are any sound shod horses then. 
I'll be looking for barefoot horses at the olympics, seeing as farriers are laming everything they put a shoe on or do they have barefoot trimmers advising on the squad ?
		
Click to expand...

Google effects of horse shoes. 

To quote (probably not exactly) the words of someone wise. "If your horse is lame without shoes it isn't sound".

Imo shoes are a remedial intervention.


----------



## Amaranta (24 March 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Marc it did not protect me from farriers who slowly lamed my horses over several years of apparently good shoeing, so can you go preach somewhere else, your profession are not saints. For a start, there are hundreds of you taking money for shoeing horses who you surely MUST know don't need them - cobs with great feet, tiny ponies, people who only ever ride in an arena etc etc
And most of you get a footie barefoot horse and the first thing you suggest is "put shoes on it" when all it needs is a diet change.

Now, if you want a sensible debate like Moorman and A Guilding join in, please help up with your knowledge. If all you want is a fight, then carry on by all means but all you are doing is bringing your own profession into disrepute.


There are a* huge* number of people on this forum whose horses have highly functional barefoot hooves trimmed by trimmers (and although I don't recommend it, I learned from a book!) including dozens who have horses who were due to be retired or put to sleep because their farriers could do no more for them, who are now in full work barefoot.

Please stop insulting us and get into the real world.
		
Click to expand...

I must have been extremely lucky with my farriers, my horses are unshod and are trimmed by my fully qualified farrier.  I am of the opinion that if they need shoes, they will get them and when one of my mares looked as though she was unlevel in front, my trainer suggested putting front shoes on, my farrier did not want to, he did not think it was the problem and said that she had beautiful feet and that it would be a crime to shoe them, however, he, very reluctantly, put fronts on, he was right, her feet were not the problem.

My last two farriers (I moved) have also happily encouraged me to keep shoes off as they felt that my horses all had good enough feet to go without, they hack and compete normally and quite honestly the trims (apart from the field kept broodies) that they have are so minimal as to be almost non existant - not ALL farriers are bad, just as I suspect not all trimmers are.


----------



## ausipaliboi (24 March 2012)

This 'feedback' comment left me speechless

_Arthur (Farrier Australia)

Ive been reading books and books on Barefoot Trimming, but it wasnt until I bought your eBook that I fully understood the trimming aspects and since applying your method to my barefoot horse, he has come on hugely! Thank you!_

What the hell kind of farrier is he pretending to be???


----------



## Amaranta (24 March 2012)

giveitago said:



			Well, i went one further and contacted her to request she remove her 'book' from sale. 

I pointed out she may be liable for any horses that may go lame as a result of her trimming advice. Or, possibly the death of some. 

Somehow, money speaks louder than care in these cases and I hope someone will alert her to the dangers of her trimming before we lose dozens of horses like the strasser situation a few years ago.
		
Click to expand...

Brilliant, well done - you have inspired me to do the same


----------



## cptrayes (24 March 2012)

horserider said:



			Must be by luck more than judgement that there are any sound shod horses then. 
I'll be looking for barefoot horses at the olympics, seeing as farriers are laming everything they put a shoe on or do they have barefoot trimmers advising on the squad ?
		
Click to expand...

horserider it is comments like Marc's, who says that he has never seen a sound foot on a barefoot horse unless it was trimmed by a farrier, and you, who take our perfectly reasonable response to his comments and then make this ridiculous extrapolation, who ruin these discussions and bring them down to the level of farce.


----------



## criso (24 March 2012)

LucyPriory said:



			I can not and would not endorse the behaviour of individuals who suggest horse owners learn to trim by book or use tools for which they have no training.
		
Click to expand...

The only person who suggested I should do this with my barefoot horse was a remedial farrier who gave me one of his old  rasps and suggested I give him a 'bit of a tidy up' between visits.

Not saying that owners necessarily shouldn't do this if they know what they are doing. But you don't just hand someone a tool which they don't know how to use.

This was after hacking his frogs out so badly it made him bleed and left him sore for months. Apparently they were 'overdeveloped'.


----------



## debsg (24 March 2012)

Haven't had time yet to read all the replies. My two girls are happily 100% sound-on-all-surfaces barefooters.
Just looked at that woman's ad for her book and my toes are curling up, thinking of the damage some mad tw*t with book and angle grinder (OMFG!!) could do!! Not to mention the damage to the barefoot 'cause' for want of a better expression. The comments from other local horsey people that I am mad, will ruin my horses' feet and that I am a bunny hugging hippy for wanting them barefoot had all but ceased, there is more positive feedback on ths forum and finally barefoot is becoming more 'mainstream'. Then this loony pokes her head over the parapet!!


----------



## debsg (24 March 2012)

PS Don't think any sensible barefooter would say this is OK, any more than someone who advocates shoeing would go along with those weird 'rocker' shoes that I have seen on the net for dressage horses. Or the monstrosities that Tennessee Walking Horses are shown in. Extreme examples of either end of the spectrum. God help the poor horses!


----------



## mandwhy (24 March 2012)

debsg said:



			PS Don't think any sensible barefooter would say this is OK, any more than someone who advocates shoeing would go along with those weird 'rocker' shoes that I have seen on the net for dressage horses. Or the monstrosities that Tennessee Walking Horses are shown in. Extreme examples of either end of the spectrum. God help the poor horses! 

Click to expand...

I have heard of the 'stacks' put on Tennessee walking horses and 'soring' which is horrendous but since you reminded me I just googled to see what they looked like and........I....... just........ WHAT? What the hell??? 

So just out of interest, in your barefoot opinions are there certain breeds that do better barefoot? If so which ones? Or is it based on individual hoof conformation?


----------



## MerrySherryRider (24 March 2012)

cptrayes said:



			horserider it is comments like Marc's, who says that he has never seen a sound foot on a barefoot horse unless it was trimmed by a farrier, and you, who take our perfectly reasonable response to his comments and then make this ridiculous extrapolation, who ruin these discussions and bring them down to the level of farce.
		
Click to expand...

Speaking in regard to my own comments, I disagree. To repeatedly hear criticism of farriers as a profession by barefoot posters is unfair and inaccurate.   
I have yet to hear an example of criticism of any barefoot trimmers work on anyones horse on here, are they all beyond reproach ? 

Extremism on either side of the debate is really off putting.


----------



## ester (24 March 2012)

There was a trimmer criticised the other week for not agreeing to discuss issues with a vet (I can't remember who it was or what the issues were though).


----------



## Oberon (24 March 2012)

mandwhy said:



			I have heard of the 'stacks' put on Tennessee walking horses and 'soring' which is horrendous but since you reminded me I just googled to see what they looked like and........I....... just........ WHAT? What the hell??? 

So just out of interest, in your barefoot opinions are there certain breeds that do better barefoot? If so which ones? Or is it based on individual hoof conformation?
		
Click to expand...

If I may take this one....

There are breeds who have different shapes of hooves. My draft (always BF) has flatter hooves and my Arab has longer toes....but they both function just fine on them.

There are breeds who are traditionally fed a high sugar and cereal diet and also stabled from an early age who tend to 'need' shoes as soon as they are backed....

Genetics are blamed, and the horse is said to be born with crap feet.....
Yet these very horses will commonly defy their genetics when fed an appropriate diet and allowed to develop the caudal hoof as they should have done when they were youngsters.

Hooves need movement just like we need air. If they don't pound their lateral cartilages and digital cushions they under develop and fall out of function. You end up with an adult horse with a weak and squishy caudal hoof that can't support the horse. This is often interperated as the horse not coping with the workload and therefore shod. Which will leave the heels hanging and then the caudal foot falls further behind. Horses can die of old age with the caudal hoof development of a foal.

There are breeds who are notorious for struggling with sugar sensitivity (Iberians, TBs to name two) who may be footy if not fed according to their needs. This is often seen as needing shoes.

As for hoof shape - individually assessing the horse and trimming according to their natural hoof shape yields better results than formulaic trimming. That's what can make something as simple as trimming a hoof really complicated...you have to appreciate each horse's individual limb development, action, wear pattern etc. There is never just one answer


----------



## marc (24 March 2012)

Just to finish my contribution to this thread then everyone can discuss with each other, registration does not protect from poor workmanship from either farriers or trimmers but it does make them liable for their actions and prosecutable(spell) for any harm caused. If a barefoot trimmer makes your horse's foot bleed they can ride off into the sunset without having to pay any consequences.

There are lots of horses around here. Some of them are shod, some are barefoot and most of them are quite happy. I dont come across any barefoot trimmers, they dont last long around here and I've had to fix a few of their disasters over the years. I guess the economy may be a reason for that too when what you pay a premium for doesnt work then you go back to the professional who can help.

I do find it a shame because some of the guys at the top of the barefoot trimming tree have done some excellent scientific research. Its a shame all those below them aren't able to apply themselves.


----------



## Oberon (24 March 2012)

marc said:



			I do find it a shame because some of the guys at the top of the barefoot trimming tree have done some excellent scientific research. Its a shame all those below them aren't able to apply themselves.
		
Click to expand...

I find this extremely frustrating too.

Problems arise when people trim with their egos rather than their brains 

I turned to BF trimmers after witnessing a farrier's apprentice (under the scrutiny of the farrier) leaving my healthy hoofed horse stood in pools of blood during a routine trim 

Fortunately I found a couple of diamonds that have been keeping my horses sound and happy for many years now.

There are good and bad in both.


----------



## maggiesmum (24 March 2012)

horserider said:



			Speaking in regard to my own comments, I disagree. To repeatedly hear criticism of farriers as a profession by barefoot posters is unfair and inaccurate.   
I have yet to hear an example of criticism of any barefoot trimmers work on anyones horse on here, are they all beyond reproach ? 

Extremism on either side of the debate is really off putting.
		
Click to expand...

The reason you'll hear many barefooters criticise farriers is because once upon a time we also believed that horses needed shoes then we hit a problem, for some it was a bad day with the farrier e.g... horse left severely lame or bleeding, for others it happened over time eg.. navicular, for the most part we're critical because we've had bad experiences, we've seen the worst ones and they were the reason we went barefoot and in some cases they're the reason why we're so adamant that our horses will stay barefoot, why would we put back the very thing that caused the problem in the first place?

There are good farriers out there, there are also good trimmers out there too, the difficult part is finding them. 
I'm sure you'll see trimmers criticised by barefooters, as someone pointed out there was criticism of one last week who refused to discuss a horse with its trainer, there are plenty of bad ones out there and however scathing pro-shoe people or farriers are of them believe me any decent trimmer will be 10 times more frustrated about it, they are after all damaging the reputation of the barefoot movement as a whole.


----------



## Trot_On_Dressage (24 March 2012)

I am finding the barefoot debate really interesting. Especially as I have a young horse just back who is still not in shoes yet and have been trying to decide whether I should bother with them as he seems fine. How ever, coming from a nutrition back ground myself I understand the concept of diet and how it plays an important part. Although would like to point out that sugar is not the enemy, horses need sugar for their brain to function and grass contains more sugar than any hard feed, sugar also doesn't hot up horses. I think would you are referring to is starch not sugar.


----------



## amandap (24 March 2012)

Sugar/glucose is not the enemy but too much of it very much is. There is so  much hidden sugar in horses diets in many grasses and hays. Imo the sugars in grass and hay is much more of a problem than in feeds. Feeds just tip many over the edge.


----------



## Trot_On_Dressage (24 March 2012)

Totally agree with you. Sorry, get very defensive over the whole sugar debate as generally everyone blames feed companies without realising hay and grass contain the most sugar. I will go back to just reading! One question tho, as mentioned my youngster doesn't have shoes on yet and I was wondering how barefoot or unshod  horses cope jumping on grass without shoes.


----------



## amandap (24 March 2012)

Don't go back to just reading. I am a bit gobby sometimes. 

I don't jump myself but I believe horses cope fine on grass but do have some slippage problems when it's wet. My personal feeling is this isn't a negative as sliding stops joints being jarred. With studs causing a sudden stop when the momentum is still sending the horse in the direction it was going, quite a bit of jarring and force is put on limbs and joints. 
I mightn't feel the same if I feel in a jumping fall though.


----------



## Trot_On_Dressage (24 March 2012)

Great thanks. As my name suggests I am more into dressage than jumping anyway but will be doing a bit of everything with him. Although I am an ai and owned horses for over 25years he is my first one that doesn't have shoes on so I've never been in this situation before! I guess as he is doing well without shoes I should just continue don't that route, at least until I come to any problems.


----------



## cptrayes (24 March 2012)

Trot_On_Dressage said:



			I was wondering how barefoot or unshod  horses cope jumping on grass without shoes.
		
Click to expand...

I was out hunting today on slippy hard ground on a barefoot horse. I have previously BE evented five horses,                 two to a height of 1m 15

I have never had a problem jumping barefoot horses on any type of going.


----------



## cptrayes (24 March 2012)

horserider said:



			To repeatedly hear criticism of farriers as a profession by barefoot posters is unfair and inaccurate.   
I have yet to hear an example of criticism of any barefoot trimmers work on anyones horse on here, are they all beyond reproach ?
		
Click to expand...

It is neither unfair nor inaccurate for us to describe things that farriers did with our own horses and that we have accurate records happened with other people's. Please also bear in mind that in this thread we did not do so until a farrier told us that there were no sound bare feet trimmed by a trimmer, only those done by a farrier.

I don't know any barefoot trimmers' work, but of course they are not all brilliant, and I have seen trimmers and farriers and laymen criticise trimmers on this forum, and in this thread, so you haven't looked very far if you have never seen any.

There are good farriers and bad farriers. There are good trimmers and bad trimmers. There are good shoeing farriers who haven't got  a clue how to trim a performance barefoot horse and will repeatedly trim sole callous even though it leaves the horse sore. There are good trimming farriers who haven't a clue about nutrition and go for shoes too soon. Thank goodness that in this country trimmers can't shoe, like unqualified people can in the US, Australia and other countries.


----------



## A Guilding (24 March 2012)

She's not bad looking though


----------



## maggiesmum (24 March 2012)

A Guilding said:



			She's not bad looking though 

Click to expand...

ROFL


----------



## Amaranta (24 March 2012)

A Guilding said:



			She's not bad looking though 

Click to expand...

You HAVE to be a bloke lol

I think she looks like Anthea Turner


----------



## A Guilding (24 March 2012)

Amaranta said:



			You HAVE to be a bloke lol

I think she looks like Anthea Turner
		
Click to expand...

Yep I wonder if an ordinary horse turned up to be trimmed if she would turn it down cos she was a high performance trimmer, or is she referring to the fact she is high performance? Any way im sure she keeps clients happy.


----------



## amandaco2 (25 March 2012)

an angle grinder?!?! are they actually for real?


----------



## cptrayes (25 March 2012)

A Guilding said:



			Yep I wonder if an ordinary horse turned up to be trimmed if she would turn it down cos she was a high performance trimmer, or is she referring to the fact she is high performance? Any way im sure she keeps clients happy.
		
Click to expand...

She's a Pro AG, of course she does


----------



## A Guilding (25 March 2012)

cptrayes said:



			She's a Pro AG, of course she does 

Click to expand...

I was thinking of offering her a position


----------



## cptrayes (25 March 2012)

I can imagine. I'd rather not, but I can


----------



## tigerlily91 (26 March 2012)

ausipaliboi said:



			This 'feedback' comment left me speechless

_Arthur (Farrier Australia)

Ive been reading books and books on Barefoot Trimming, but it wasnt until I bought your eBook that I fully understood the trimming aspects and since applying your method to my barefoot horse, he has come on hugely! Thank you!_

What the hell kind of farrier is he pretending to be???
		
Click to expand...


Hmm think you got it the wrong way around... i think  the author of that comment is:- "- Samantha Brown, Perth, Australia"

and if im right then this is the farrier comment;




			Hi Sarah, The link arrived this time and,though it took a while, I have all of the document on my hdd. Thank you so much. I have already read much of the book and find it to be very well presented. I am a registered farrier and horse trainer and already practice all that I have read so far as should every farrier! The difference between me and other farriers is that I am an advocate for the horse not for horse shoes. I do put shoes on some few horses but that is for extreme conditions that we have here in Australia. Working horses here have to run over razor sharp basalt rocks in the pursuit of cattle and without shoes they tear off there feet  literally. Walking on this rock will shred the soles of your boots in about two days. The vast majority of my clients never put shoes on their horses but there are many others who do without realizing that there is another way. It costs more to put on shoes so almost all farriers recommend them, What a shock  . Thanks again,
		
Click to expand...

bit confusing but i think it makes more sense!!?


----------



## Saluqihounds (28 March 2012)

I'm sitting here having read through most this thread feeling really quite shocked by the extreme and over reaction to both the book and the use of power tools by people that have probably not even read it, no one is having their arm twisted to force them to use this book or power tool, there is no suggestion that a beginner should pick up an angle grinder, nor is it an idiots guide.  If you don't like the idea of any of it then simply do not buy it.

 The book is actually very good IMO, I contacted my nearest Trimmer about having my 2 year old Filly correctly Barefoot trimmed but she would not travel to me so I was left with the option of having to have her shod when the time comes or learn to trim myself. The book was a very good starting point for me in seeking the knowledge needed to barefoot trim myself.


----------



## Littlelegs (28 March 2012)

Saluqihounds- think you have just illustrated why barefoot people in general get so much undeserved grief. Only takes a few to ruin the reputation of all.


----------



## tigerlily91 (28 March 2012)

Saluqihounds said:



			I'm sitting here having read through most this thread feeling really quite shocked by the extreme and over reaction to both the book and the use of power tools by people that have probably not even read it, no one is having their arm twisted to force them to use this book or power tool, there is no suggestion that a beginner should pick up an angle grinder, nor is it an idiots guide.  If you don't like the idea of any of it then simply do not buy it.

 The book is actually very good IMO, I contacted my nearest Trimmer about having my 2 year old Filly correctly Barefoot trimmed but she would not travel to me so I was left with the option of having to have her shod when the time comes or learn to trim myself. The book was a very good starting point for me in seeking the knowledge needed to barefoot trim myself.
		
Click to expand...


Well said........... whether youre for or against, its hard to critique something if you havent had first hand knowledge of it (ie read it) although it seems many many people have nooo problem doing just that. 

Not sure why they dont just buy the book -theres a 60 day money back offer so if its not for them then no loss really - infact they gain as they now have more knowledge - good or bad - then before.

It would be so nice to see people taking the time to find out more about things before giving their opinion about something they havent even got/read etc!


----------



## Meowy Catkin (28 March 2012)

No, having spoken to someone who actually does trim cow hooves with an angle grinder - I can honestly say that advocating it's use on horses hooves is quite frankly idiotic.


----------



## tigerlily91 (28 March 2012)

Faracat said:



			No, having spoken to someone who actually does trim cow hooves with an angle grinder - I can honestly say that advocating it's use on horses hooves is quite frankly idiotic.
		
Click to expand...

i dont know much about tools etc but like anything in any 'kit' industry i suspect there are lots and lots of different types. im sure an angle grinder has many different options etc etc only a fool would use something that would hurt a horse PLUS only a stupid horse would hang around to let them be hurt.

think youre jumping the gun here really.... anyway from what ive seen of the preview the angle grinder is a chapter..... only about 1 tiny section in the entire thing.... doesnt look like its mandatory and if it were me i wouldnt do something i wasnt comfortable with either and im sure anyone else would do the same too..... so not really sure what the big deal is.

have you seen the movie video clips??!! doesnt exactly look like the horses are going ballistic...../?! but they do tell us when we do something wrong dont i know it!!!


----------



## Littlelegs (28 March 2012)

My horse has hooves. I've got access to power tools. Don't need to buy a book to realise having a go at home to combine the two is complete stupidity.


----------



## ester (28 March 2012)

I didn't think the issue with the angle grinder was its use per se, more the potential for things to go wrong if it slipped/horse moved unexpectedly etc.


----------



## Ladydragon (28 March 2012)

For the FIRST time ever, the *complete Barefoot Trimming Guide* for trimming Success.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps we can all also become fully knowledgeable podiatrists, chiropractors or even bricklayers by spending thirty quid on a book - instead of undertaking proper study and supervised practice...


----------



## rhino (28 March 2012)

tigerlily91 said:



			only a fool would use something that would hurt a horse
		
Click to expand...

Fully agree, unfortunately there is an abundance of fools in the horse world 



tigerlily91 said:



			PLUS only a stupid horse would hang around to let them be hurt.
		
Click to expand...

It only takes a split second. Horses are flight animals after all 

Dear oh dear


----------



## tigerlily91 (28 March 2012)

littlelegs said:



			My horse has hooves. I've got access to power tools. Don't need to buy a book to realise having a go at home to combine the two is complete stupidity.
		
Click to expand...

if i may quote myself....:- 



tigerlily91 said:



			theres a 60 day money back offer so if its not for them then no loss really - infact they gain as they now have more knowledge - good or bad - then before.
		
Click to expand...

not sure really how you can get so woundup over something you dont know about or have even given time to understand?? sure lets say you read it and still have the same opinion thats cool but you seem to be making an opinion on something you havent investigated on??

at the end of the day what you and i and anyone does is up to them but i usually like to find out about something before deciding not to do it,or doing it.

i.e.... i know drink ++ driving is bad and why so i dont do that, just like drugs or smoking etc but you do or do not do something based on an educated thought, right?? so why not find out before making a decision??



ester said:



			I didn't think the issue with the angle grinder was its use per se, more the potential for things to go wrong if it slipped/horse moved unexpectedly etc.
		
Click to expand...

if it were me i wouldnt let an angle grinder near my horsey unless i had trained him to the noise etc just like water and clippers etc etc

http://sarahbellbarefoottrimming.com/videos/trimming-videos/  ....i watched those movie videos and they dont look like the horses are going crazzy do they?? i suspect theyve been trained to the noise like clippers etc etc and its not a big deal.

looks like she has someone there holding the horse // helping out as she gets rid of the angle grinder at times when she needs to readjust the horse or has finished with it...!??

anywayy...... i doubt anyone would use an angle grinder full stop until they were really really confident with themselves their horse and their trimming

so its kind of moot point....... if your a pro trimmer & want to trim with an angle grinder as you feel its up to your skill level or whatever then what does it matter??

from her buy page it just looks like shes saying her book would teach a beginner how to trim.... and there happens to be an option to also do that with an angle grinder?!?!


----------



## cptrayes (28 March 2012)

ester said:



			I didn't think the issue with the angle grinder was its use per se, more the potential for things to go wrong if it slipped/horse moved unexpectedly etc.
		
Click to expand...

An angle grinder has a "dead man's handle", if the button is let go the tool stops.  This is not true of a sharp knife and no-one has any problem with very, very sharp knives near horses feet and legs.

Clippers could take out a horse's eye easily and yet people still clip their horses heads, sometimes when they are very unhappy to have it done.

Dentist tools used for too long can overheat and kill the tooth, stopping it from growing and causing huge problems.

Bandages put on too tight can kill the tail or the skin on the legs.

An angle grinder fitted with an appropriate disk is no more than a power sander. No-one is talking about using them with a diamond tipped stone cutter disk. A power sander will give you more control than the professional rasps that I use, they are beasts and when new they will take off a quarter inch in one swipe if you do not know how to handle them. 

No-one is lambasting Pete Ramey for producing a beginner's guide to trimming. Why not?  There are people in the world, as I was in the beginning, who simply do not have access to a trained trimmer, and some not even to a farrier. If they need a book like this then they should be able to get one.

What a lot of fuss about nothing this thread is


----------



## tigerlily91 (28 March 2012)

cptrayes said:



			An angle grinder has a "dead man's handle", if the button is let go the tool stops.  This is not true of a sharp knife and no-one has any problem with very, very sharp knives near horses feet and legs.

An angle grinder fitted with an appropriate disk is no more than a power sander. No-one is talking about using them with a diamond tipped stone cutter disk. A power sander will give you more control than the professional rasps that I use, they are beasts and will take off a quarter inch in one swipe if you do not know how to handle them. 

No-one is lambasting Pete Ramey for producing a beginner's guide to trimming. Why not?
		
Click to expand...

could not have put it better myself....... just because its a machine doesnt mean its terrible...


----------



## Ceris Comet (28 March 2012)

Saluqihounds said:



			I'm sitting here having read through most this thread feeling really quite shocked by the extreme and over reaction to both the book and the use of power tools by people that have probably not even read it, no one is having their arm twisted to force them to use this book or power tool, there is no suggestion that a beginner should pick up an angle grinder, nor is it an idiots guide.  If you don't like the idea of any of it then simply do not buy it.

 The book is actually very good IMO, I contacted my nearest Trimmer about having my 2 year old Filly correctly Barefoot trimmed but she would not travel to me so I was left with the option of having to have her shod when the time comes or learn to trim myself. The book was a very good starting point for me in seeking the knowledge needed to barefoot trim myself.
		
Click to expand...

So many  " foals " on this thread !


----------



## Littlelegs (28 March 2012)

Tigerlily 91- I don't need to read her book, even if it contains a fountain of knowledge on the hoof, to realise its very very wrong to encourage people to try trimming feet at home. Agree I could get my money back, but there are plenty of books & articles that I could read instead & know I would benefit from so why not just read them? I also refuse to endorse her.


----------



## Littlelegs (28 March 2012)

Can't edit on phone but it should say learning to trim at home with powertools.


----------



## cptrayes (28 March 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Tigerlily 91- I don't need to read her book, even if it contains a fountain of knowledge on the hoof, to realise its very very wrong to encourage people to try trimming feet at home. Agree I could get my money back, but there are plenty of books & articles that I could read instead & know I would benefit from so why not just read them? I also refuse to endorse her.
		
Click to expand...


you don't have to buy the damned thing! 

There are people in the wilds of America, Australia etc who have no farrier cover never mind trimmer cover. They need it. Stop being so insular, the UK is not the only place that people have horses needing foot care.


----------



## Ceris Comet (28 March 2012)

Silly Farriers !!!
What idiots they are ! Training for 5 years to care for horses feet when they could just buy a book and an angle grinder !


----------



## cptrayes (28 March 2012)

Ceris Comet said:



			Silly Farriers !!!
What idiots they are ! Training for 5 years to care for horses feet when they could just buy a book and an angle grinder !
		
Click to expand...

Are you aware that this woman is not British and that in her country and others people can set up as farriers with no training whatsoever? Better they read this book than nothing


----------



## Littlelegs (28 March 2012)

Cptrayes- can't edit on phone but it you see my last post I meant to say very very wrong to encourage people to have a go at trimming at home with a power tool. There is a world of difference in having an inexperienced but informed first attempt at trimming because needs must, & having a first attempt with an angle grinder.


----------



## Ceris Comet (28 March 2012)

Ladyinred said:



			She also claims to be psychic. I would prefer her to not use PHYSICAL effort lol.
		
Click to expand...

I did !!!!


----------



## Ceris Comet (28 March 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Cptrayes- can't edit on phone but it you see my last post I meant to say very very wrong to encourage people to have a go at trimming at home with a power tool. There is a world of difference in having an inexperienced but informed first attempt at trimming because needs must, & having a first attempt with an angle grinder.
		
Click to expand...

This butcher of feet has to be stopped !!!!!!
For gods sake !


----------



## cptrayes (28 March 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Cptrayes- can't edit on phone but it you see my last post I meant to say very very wrong to encourage people to have a go at trimming at home with a power tool. There is a world of difference in having an inexperienced but informed first attempt at trimming because needs must, & having a first attempt with an angle grinder.
		
Click to expand...

I haven't read it, so I can't comment on what the book is actually encouraging people to do. 

But I have used an angle grinder (not on a horse) and a brand new professional rasp and professional hoof knife, and I know that if I was inexperienced I could do a lot more damage accidentally with the rasp or a very sharp knife, either to myself or the horse, than I could do with an angle grinder with the right disk on it.


----------



## Saluqihounds (28 March 2012)

Ceris Comet said:



			This butcher of feet has to be stopped !!!!!!
For gods sake !
		
Click to expand...

Are you for real? I find it more worrying that such reactionary people such as yourself are working with horses, now that is surely a recipe for disaster! lol


----------



## Ceris Comet (28 March 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I haven't read it, so I can't comment on what the book is actually encouraging people to do. 

But I have used an angle grinder (not on a horse) and a brand new professional rasp and professional hoof knife, and I know that if I was inexperienced I could do a lot more damage accidentally with the rasp or a very sharp knife, either to myself or the horse, than I could do with an angle grinder with the right disk on it.
		
Click to expand...


Go for it girl ! With all that kit who needs a 5 year training programe ????


----------



## Littlelegs (28 March 2012)

Cptrayes- but its not just a safety issue, its much easier to accidently take off too much with a simple beginners error with  an angle grinder than it is with a radox.


----------



## Littlelegs (28 March 2012)

Phone again. Rasp not radox lol.


----------



## cptrayes (28 March 2012)

Ceris Comet said:



			Go for it girl ! With all that kit who needs a 5 year training programe ???? 

Click to expand...

You're a bit late sweetheart. I've already taken one horse that two farriers told me would never work barefoot to affiliated eventing, and another that the farrier and vets said could never be brought sound to hunting and National show winning fitness. Those are just the cripples, I've done a few others as well 

As you say, who needs a 5 year training program?


----------



## Ceris Comet (28 March 2012)

Amaranta said:



http://sarahbellbarefoottrimming.com/buy/barefoot-trim-beginner-guide-ebook/

Click to expand...

Read it and weep


----------



## cptrayes (28 March 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Cptrayes- but its not just a safety issue, its much easier to accidently take off too much with a simple beginners error with  an angle grinder than it is with a rasp
		
Click to expand...


I don't believe it is. Have you used a sharp professional's rasp - the £25 a time ones, not the catalogue ones? Have you used an angle grinder with a grinding/sanding disk on it?


----------



## YorksG (28 March 2012)

Well the woman who wrote this book, which after all does contain a chapter showing novice trimmers how to use an angle grinder on a hoof, then suggests that the people buying it print it on paper with holes down the side, so that they can put it in a file! She obviously thinks at this point that she is writing for the hard of thinking


----------



## cptrayes (28 March 2012)

YorksG said:



			Well the woman who wrote this book, which after all does contain a chapter showing novice trimmers how to use an angle grinder on a hoof, then suggests that the people buying it print it on paper with holes down the side, so that they can put it in a file! She obviously thinks at this point that she is writing for the hard of thinking 

Click to expand...

Well, she is an American


----------



## Ceris Comet (28 March 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I don't believe it is. Have you used a sharp professional's rasp - the £25 a time ones, not the catalogue ones? Have you used an angle grinder with a grinding/sanding disk on it?
		
Click to expand...

Strangely enough no !!!!
Silly  me !! I would rather a person who has spent the last 20 years shoeing my horse ! BUT WAIT!!!!!!!! ....I could have a total toss pot  who has spent two days in front of a dvd,,, Mmmmmm!  who do i choose ?


----------



## Ceris Comet (29 March 2012)

Ceris Comet said:



			Strangely enough no !!!!
Silly  me !! I would rather a person who has spent the last 20 years shoeing my horse ! BUT WAIT!!!!!!!! ....I could have a total toss pot  who has spent two days in front of a dvd,,, Mmmmmm!  who do i choose ?

Click to expand...

bump


----------



## Littlelegs (29 March 2012)

Cptrayes- I've only used a Rasp on a few occasions when I've asked the farrier if I can have a try with him directing. I'm reasonably strong but for me the fact it requires some physical input makes it harder to take of too much. Whereas its easy to go too far with something that doesn't require personal effort.


----------



## Toast (29 March 2012)

Jesus wept....


----------



## Amaranta (29 March 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Are you aware that this woman is not British and that in her country and others people can set up as farriers with no training whatsoever? Better they read this book than nothing 

Click to expand...

Err yes she is, she lives in Dorset this is from the website:

Sarah lives in Dorset, United Kingdom with her husband, Michael, and their 3 children, Olivia Bell, Rosanna Bell and Sasha Bell who are all educated at home. She also runs two other websites Traumeel Remedy and Successful Natural Horsecare. She is passionate about natural horsemanship, home education, skiing, watersking, fitness, health and gardening!


----------



## Ceris Comet (29 March 2012)

No wonder there are so many " My horse is lame " threads !..
Get a bloody good farrier !!!!!


----------



## Amaranta (29 March 2012)

There was one dissenting voice on the blog:



S.O.O November 4, 2011 at 10:33 pm #
Barefoot is one thing, angle grinding hooves is another.

I do not think you are a good representation of barefoot trimming and i do not think you would be a good face to promote it.

Your method is even less sympathetic and even more potentially damaging than nails and shoes. Who on earth uses power tools to deal with hooves? Shocking.

REPLY

admin November 6, 2011 at 3:57 pm #
Dear SOO,

Here is a perfect example of someone passing an opinion on something they have no knowledge on..

First of all they have not read High Performance Barefoot Trimming  yet they are commenting on my work. Second  if they had read High Performance Barefoot Trimming they would know that I explain how to trim using a rasp and kineves as well as an angle grinder!

There is a choice you can use what ever you prefer and what ever tools you are comfortable with.

Thirdly  they say it is shocking to use an AG on a hoof. I am afraid they are showing again their lack of knowledge. It does create a superb trim if you use the correct discs.

If safety is their concern  which I fully respect. Like everything with horses, you train them. I.e you train them to go in traffic, you train them to be ridden etc. Again I go into detail as to how to do this in High Performance Barefoot Trimming.

The methods we use  is the Parelli training  which I cannot recommend more highly.

Sarah's reply sounds a little like Saliqihounds


----------



## debsg (29 March 2012)

Ah! Parelli training!
Presumably they catch them a 'good clunk' with the metal clip, a la Barney, if they are 'stupid' enough to move their feet whilst being trimmed with an angle grinder 

Sorry, that was sarcastic and probably childish and uncalled for.
What the heck! 
Although I totally agree with cptrayes that it is possible to do GREAT damage with a sharp knife or new rasp (and sharp nippers!) if you are insufficiently trained.
I was taught, and supervised at first, to maintain my girls' feet between trims using an old rasp. Just a bit of gentle rolling. I am deemed responsible enough to rasp with a fairly new tool now  Anything else I leave to a professional. If I needed to do more (ie if I lived 100's of miles from any farrier or trimmer) I don't know what I'd do, tbh, as I wouldn't be happy learning something this vital to my horse's welfare from a book.
Re Trot-on-Dressage's query about jumping barefoot horses - my little cob mare jumps local shows up to 1m 05, last summer we were in a class which was preceded by a sudden downpour, making the ground greasy on top, rock hard underneath. Many horses were jumping in studs and still slipping. Blaze jumped a lovely double clear, despite cornering like a motorbike  (she gets a bit excited when jumping!) and didn't slip once. She was the only barefoot horse in the class.


----------



## ester (29 March 2012)

tigerlily91 said:



			if it were me i wouldnt let an angle grinder near my horsey unless i had trained him to the noise etc just like water and clippers etc etc

http://sarahbellbarefoottrimming.com/videos/trimming-videos/  ....i watched those movie videos and they dont look like the horses are going crazzy do they?? i suspect theyve been trained to the noise like clippers etc etc and its not a big deal.

looks like she has someone there holding the horse // helping out as she gets rid of the angle grinder at times when she needs to readjust the horse or has finished with it...!??
		
Click to expand...

I went to bed last night . I didn't mean the horses spooking at the angle grinder obviously we are able to train them to accept such things . I was more thinking along the lines of pigeon in hedge scenarios . 

CP I have never had cause to use one so thanks for the note on the dead man handle, perhaps is its use for trimming that people object to then and it was just me thinking of an angle grinder on the loose!


----------



## cptrayes (29 March 2012)

Amaranta said:



			Err yes she is, she lives in Dorset this is from the website:

Sarah lives in Dorset, United Kingdom with her husband, Michael, and their 3 children, Olivia Bell, Rosanna Bell and Sasha Bell who are all educated at home. She also runs two other websites Traumeel Remedy and Successful Natural Horsecare. She is passionate about natural horsemanship, home education, skiing, watersking, fitness, health and gardening!
		
Click to expand...

Good grief! She writes just like the dumbest of dumb Americans  

She's an eejit then, I completely agree. She shouldn't be promoting self trimming from a book in this country now that we have four good trimming organisations in operation and plenty of decent farriers too.


----------



## Mypinkpony (29 March 2012)

Theres a girl at my yard who does both her horses with an angle grinder 

takes them to the top of the yard in the middle of everyone and starts doing it...sure it's very safe if one of hers or ours spooks and runs


----------



## guido16 (29 March 2012)

What fun, I dont have an angle grinder, but, I have a chainsaw. 
Will that be ok? Hope so, will pop home later and trim their feet. Lets face it, I will probably make a quicker job of it than using a silly little angle grinder.

Do you think she uses the angle grinder on her ski`s to make them go faster?

Off to text my farrier to tell him he is an eejit and not to darken my door again......


----------



## Littlelegs (29 March 2012)

Guido 16, once you've mastered the chainsaw trim, you can order my book 'numpty guide to home shoeing' teaches you the basics of how to use a electric screw driver to attach shoes & an electric bread knife to finish off those odd bits of hoof left after you've shaped it to fit whichever size shoe you have to hand. Off to create a new account now so I can post a promotional post saying how great my book is.


----------



## guido16 (29 March 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Guido 16, once you've mastered the chainsaw trim, you can order my book 'numpty guide to home shoeing' teaches you the basics of how to use a electric screw driver to attach shoes & an electric bread knife to finish off those odd bits of hoof left after you've shaped it to fit whichever size shoe you have to hand. Off to create a new account now so I can post a promotional post saying how great my book is.
		
Click to expand...

Fantastic. I do have one of my horses shod so was considering using masking tape to secure the shoe in place. I reckon if I put the masking tape all the way up to the knee then its a master stroke. It was save me money on not just the farrier, but over reach boots, fetlock boots and knee boots!

I could then use the electric bread knife to remove the tape when I need to change the shoes! Genius


----------



## YorksG (29 March 2012)

Just a little note about angle grinders to think about, yes the power stops when you let go, IF they are fitted with a deadmans switch (not all are including the one in her video), BUT the disc continues spinning for quite a while after the power is cut. Worth a thought about too


----------



## charlie76 (29 March 2012)

We regards to power tools on teeth, my horse had his tongue burnt from the dentist using them so they do cause issues.


----------



## Amaranta (29 March 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Good grief! She writes just like the dumbest of dumb Americans  

She's an eejit then, I completely agree. She shouldn't be promoting self trimming from a book in this country now that we have four good trimming organisations in operation and plenty of decent farriers too.
		
Click to expand...

Oooh careful, I can see you being mobbed by hoards of angry Americans wielding angle grinders


----------



## ester (29 March 2012)




----------



## Littlelegs (29 March 2012)

Ester- ROFL lmao. That's genius.


----------



## amandap (29 March 2012)

ester said:








Click to expand...


----------



## MerrySherryRider (29 March 2012)

ester said:








Click to expand...

Brilliant !

I don't care how much parelli she's done, if I were a horse faced with that, I'd run, no matter how introverted my left brain ( or should it be right brain?) was.


----------



## Amaranta (29 March 2012)

ester said:








Click to expand...


PMSL -excellent!


----------



## Beausmate (29 March 2012)

Home trimming and home schooling?  Does she not trust professionals?  Whether trimming your horses yourself is a good thing or not (personally I wouldn't, wouldn't rasp teeth either) I don't think I'd be taking advice from someone who uses power tools without adequate PPE.  At least when they're in a promotional photo!  I had a look at some hoof grinding discs the other day, OH tells me they're very similar to those used to grind ceramics, whatever their uses, I'd want to be wearing long sleeves and decent gloves if I was her.  Horse waves leg, knocks the grinder and even if you let go of the button, the disc is still spinning, disc connects with bare skin and removes some of it.  Ouch.  Not sensible and not giving the right impression in my opinion.


----------



## poppypiebald (29 March 2012)

There's an awful lot of people who think they can save money, cut corners and do it yourself.  And a whole group of people who think up ways of making money from those people in the name of 'natural horsemanship'.

If I said that the word 'gullible' wasn't in the dictionary, would you believe me?


----------



## paddy555 (29 March 2012)

I looked on the website of this person to see what butchery (having read parts of this thread)  she performs on these horses.
These are her pictures

http://successful-natural-horsecare.com/barefoot-horse/trimming-photos/

If someone posted a picture saying "my farrier./trimer has trimmed my foot like this" I imagine everyone would be saying "fine, what's the problem"

Not supporting this woman in any way but many people learnt to look at feet and probably trim from barefoothorse.com and no one had a problem with this. 
Trimming with power tools is not new and there is, I think, a yahoo group in respect of this. 
Having looked at the index on her book there does seem to be a reasonable amount of information in it that would be useful to a beginner.


----------



## Littlelegs (29 March 2012)

Beausmate- have you not seen eaters pic? How dare you question her safety wear, she has on matchy matchy gloves, boots, knee pads & eyemask as well, & matchy matchy grinder. Obviously a pro lol.


----------



## Littlelegs (29 March 2012)

Ester not eater, on phone!


----------



## Amaranta (29 March 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Ester not eater, on phone!
		
Click to expand...

Lol!  And henceforth Ester should be known as Eater


----------



## ester (29 March 2012)

This may not be a new thing...


----------



## guido16 (29 March 2012)

Well, I tried the chainsaw. Just aswell I have 2 other horses. Hey ho. Will try the electic bread knife with the next one. .


----------



## mytwofriends (29 March 2012)

Crikey ...... if it had been April Fool's Day today I'd have flagged this as a poor attempt - one too easily spotted.


----------



## Littlelegs (29 March 2012)

Guido16 not to worry, even if that fails you still have one more chance. Would you like to borrow my lawn mower to clip when you're done?


----------



## ferrador (29 March 2012)

i take it that a petrol chainsaw would  be a lot safer because there are no electric cables lying around LOL
chris


----------



## ester (29 March 2012)

yes but you have to get the petrol to put in it first


----------

