# Gastric Ulcers Now Gone but horse still won't trot - anyone?



## vanrim (26 March 2015)

I have 2 horses who were diagnosed with grade iv pyloric ulcers. They were treated and last week were both re scoped clear. Hurrah I thought I can ride them finally. Anyway I gave them a week and tried to lunge one and loose school the other. The gelding will trot with his ears flat back and he looks incredibly uncomfortable - he also still kicks out when you try to pick his back feet up or run your hand along his flank at the stifle end. I had to give him Sedalin just so the farrier could finish shoeing him at it was getting dangerous. The mare rears and comes at you like she would rather kill you than trot. I had these symptoms before the treatment and getting rid of the ulcers hasn't changed anything. Please no posts on ulcer treatments and behavioural issues - I have done this to death - I am only interested in finding out if anyone else has had problems, had ulcers successfully treated but original problem remained. Oh and any light at the end of the tunnel would be appreciated as it is very black in here right now.


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## catembi (26 March 2015)

Yeah, me, same.  Mine goes in cycles...atm he's very reluctant to trot, then he will gradually pick up over a few weeks & just at the point where I'm starting to think it might be worth booking a lesson, he'll come out slow again.  I take him in the school every day for a timed 10 mins.  He is happy enough walking, then I verbally ask him to trot & see how we go.  Sometimes he will nearly make a transition and then decide not to, sometimes he'll do a few strides, sometimes he wants to trot.  When we're cycling upwards, I increase his work by 5 mins a week, i.e. up to 15 mins a day then the following week up to 20 mins a day.  Gradually increasing the amount of trot & canter.  Start jumping, etc.  Then one day he'll just come out slower than the day before, & we'll be back to 10 mins in walk.

I am saving up for the insurance excess so I can get KS xrays done.  There is a strong link between KS & ulcers.

I would say that mine is ulcer free as the biting, kicking, anxiety, miserable expression etc has stopped.  He just won't go though!

T x


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## Rivendell (26 March 2015)

Sadly no light at end of tunnel here but I have been in the same boat.  Successfully treated ulcers but my horse still showed some of her original signs, especially on the ground such as being incredibly sensitive in the girth/belly area.  Luckily she has generally been much happier to work, but still has her moments.  It makes me wonder if there is something else going on along the digestive tract.  Some of the signs I think could have ended up a habit, but others wouldn't make sense as a habit.  I feel your pain as it is very frustrating!!  I hope you do seem some light soon.  It's not nice having unhappy horses is it


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## mega spoilt ponies (27 March 2015)

Hiya

Did you taper off the gastrogard slowly (like down to 1/4 syringe for a goid while?). Just a thought that you say you gave them a week before working. Is it possible that they werent weaned off slowly enough? I know some horses whereby a week off treatment was long enough for the ulcers to re-appear?


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## Exploding Chestnuts (27 March 2015)

Could you not turn them out for three weeks?


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## alsxx (27 March 2015)

Hind gut?

When mine was being treated for gastric ulcers he became more and more backward and grumpy. A lameness work up didn&#8217;t show much and vets couldn't pin point. Conversation with a different vet led to looking at the hind gut, which ended up being the issue. I have heard anecdotally that gastroguard can increase hind gut issues.


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## mega spoilt ponies (27 March 2015)

I believe that Vanrim has had the horse (s) on Equisure for some time which makes a hind gut problem more unlikely?


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## vanrim (27 March 2015)

Yes alsxx I am thinking hind gut too and although the Equisure hasn't worked I believe my horses are too affected for a supplement to make any difference. I am currently trying to get them booked into Leahurst for an ultrasound of the colon and biopsy if necessary. I believe they may need steroid treatment to get them right. I have another thread going on irritable bowel syndrome and someone on there had a horse very like mine.



alsxx said:



			Hind gut?

When mine was being treated for gastric ulcers he became more and more backward and grumpy. A lameness work up didn&#8217;t show much and vets couldn't pin point. Conversation with a different vet led to looking at the hind gut, which ended up being the issue. I have heard anecdotally that gastroguard can increase hind gut issues.
		
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## Christmas Crumpet (27 March 2015)

My horse was scoped in early December and found to have ulcers. I can't remember the types but they were Grade II & III. The signs she showed were being girthy, snappy with rugs being done up and would turn into a raging bull after cantering on exercise if ridden before breakfast. 

She had one month's Gastrogard (full dose) then tapered down to 1/4 tube a day for a further 3 months. Scoped end Dec and clear. 

Her symptoms are still the same re: rugs. She is currently on the sick list so hasn't been ridden since mid Dec. However the EP came out to see her and said she thinks very strongly that the horse has hind gut issues which are actually causing the symptoms. I think the hind gut issues are more common than people think and we just assume its the ulcers causing the symptoms.


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## alsxx (27 March 2015)

Ah sorry, didn't know the history!


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## MS123 (27 March 2015)

My first thoughts were hind gut or KS.


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## Silverfire (27 March 2015)

Two horses developing kissing spines at the same time would be extremely unlikely or unlucky! Did you do a succeed test to see if you got a positive Albumin result which would point at hind gut issues? Do they trot when turned out in the field? Did muscle enzymes test normal in blood tests? Just some suggestions.


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## Ali27 (27 March 2015)

How about trying mycasorb from progressive earth? My mare is transformed since a 90 day course of succeed and mycasorb as I'm convinced that the clover in her field causes her problems!


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## vanrim (28 March 2015)

Yes they haven't got kissing spines. My vet won't do the succeed test as they don't think it is reliable enough. The blood tests all came back normal.



Silverfire said:



			Two horses developing kissing spines at the same time would be extremely unlikely or unlucky! Did you do a succeed test to see if you got a positive Albumin result which would point at hind gut issues? Do they trot when turned out in the field? Did muscle enzymes test normal in blood tests? Just some suggestions.
		
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## vanrim (28 March 2015)

I will have a look at this thanks.




Ali27 said:



			How about trying mycasorb from progressive earth? My mare is transformed since a 90 day course of succeed and mycasorb as I'm convinced that the clover in her field causes her problems!
		
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## old hand (28 March 2015)

Mine do not have ulcers but have changed their feed as there were similar problems - one bucking out on applying leg and very stuffy, wouldn't canter the other grumpy and stuffy.  It seemed to be chaff, tried alfalfa based and non molassed  I read somewhere that there was a lot of preservatives in most of them so changed to speedi beet and hi fibre nuts that are rice based.  they are a huge amount better, stuffy one still a bit lazy but not backwards the other now light off the leg.  Both were really bad to girth up so imagine they were a bit like me when I eat white bread!  Just a thought.  I did this because I was diagnosed with ulcers but turned out not to have them - it was an allergy to tomatoe skins Violent pain and they nearly took my appendix out at one point so the pain can be very severe. I got carted off to hospital twice and passed out cold in A and E once.  If I had been a horse I think I would have been very grumpy!


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## charlie76 (28 March 2015)

Mine is being treated for ulcers at the moment. I am giving him gastro guard and I have changed his fed to dengie happy tummy, top spec ulcer cubes, non mollased beet and brewers yeast. I am giving him a scoop of hi fi before I ride him. 
He had a physio look at him as well as I felt he was still a little unhappy and she said he was was very tight over his back from being in pain for so long. So might be worth getting that checked out.


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## charlie76 (28 March 2015)

Mine is being treated for ulcers at the moment. I am giving him gastro guard and I have changed his fed to dengie happy tummy, top spec ulcer cubes, non mollased beet and brewers yeast. I am giving him a scoop of hi fi before I ride him. 
He had a physio look at him as well as I felt he was still a little unhappy and she said he was was very tight over his back from being in pain for so long. So might be worth getting that checked out.


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## vanrim (28 March 2015)

I have got them both booked in with a chiropractor in a couple of weeks.



charlie76 said:



			Mine is being treated for ulcers at the moment. I am giving him gastro guard and I have changed his fed to dengie happy tummy, top spec ulcer cubes, non mollased beet and brewers yeast. I am giving him a scoop of hi fi before I ride him. 
He had a physio look at him as well as I felt he was still a little unhappy and she said he was was very tight over his back from being in pain for so long. So might be worth getting that checked out.
		
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## vanrim (28 March 2015)

The allergy aspect is interesting.




old hand said:



			Mine do not have ulcers but have changed their feed as there were similar problems - one bucking out on applying leg and very stuffy, wouldn't canter the other grumpy and stuffy.  It seemed to be chaff, tried alfalfa based and non molassed  I read somewhere that there was a lot of preservatives in most of them so changed to speedi beet and hi fibre nuts that are rice based.  they are a huge amount better, stuffy one still a bit lazy but not backwards the other now light off the leg.  Both were really bad to girth up so imagine they were a bit like me when I eat white bread!  Just a thought.  I did this because I was diagnosed with ulcers but turned out not to have them - it was an allergy to tomatoe skins Violent pain and they nearly took my appendix out at one point so the pain can be very severe. I got carted off to hospital twice and passed out cold in A and E once.  If I had been a horse I think I would have been very grumpy!
		
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## Ali27 (28 March 2015)

Ali27 said:



			How about trying mycasorb from progressive earth? My mare is transformed since a 90 day course of succeed and mycasorb as I'm convinced that the clover in her field causes her problems!
		
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http://www.greenpet.com.au/pages/What-are-Mycotoxins?.html Here is a link which explains the effects of mycotoxins.


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## vanrim (28 March 2015)

I haven't read that before but I have just ordered some Mycosorb from Forage Plus. The vets are stumped at the moment. I have spent oodles on Equisure and it has had no effect whatsoever. I am yet to be convinced about Suceed but haven't dismissed it totally.




Ali27 said:



http://www.greenpet.com.au/pages/What-are-Mycotoxins?.html Here is a link which explains the effects of mycotoxins.
		
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## vanrim (28 March 2015)

Ali27 - did you use original Suceed or the improved formula one only available through a vet?


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## vanrim (28 March 2015)

Thanks for the post old hand. All this information is mind boggling but worth considering. My horses are now out 24/7 and only eating alfalfa chaff and hay. I am even changing my hay supply to see if that makes a difference. The chaff they are on is different to the one I was feeding previously. 




old hand said:



			Mine do not have ulcers but have changed their feed as there were similar problems - one bucking out on applying leg and very stuffy, wouldn't canter the other grumpy and stuffy.  It seemed to be chaff, tried alfalfa based and non molassed  I read somewhere that there was a lot of preservatives in most of them so changed to speedi beet and hi fibre nuts that are rice based.  they are a huge amount better, stuffy one still a bit lazy but not backwards the other now light off the leg.  Both were really bad to girth up so imagine they were a bit like me when I eat white bread!  Just a thought.  I did this because I was diagnosed with ulcers but turned out not to have them - it was an allergy to tomatoe skins Violent pain and they nearly took my appendix out at one point so the pain can be very severe. I got carted off to hospital twice and passed out cold in A and E once.  If I had been a horse I think I would have been very grumpy!
		
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## Ali27 (29 March 2015)

vanrim said:



			Ali27 - did you use original Suceed or the improved formula one only available through a vet?
		
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I got my succeed through the vet. It cost me around £88 per month. Luckily my insurance covered it for 90 days. I am prepared to fund it myself next year if it means a happier horse  I also feed 10ml of hemp oil am and pm and half a scoop of happy tummy in each feed. She also gets half scoop of happy tummy before she is ridden.


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## Lulup (29 March 2015)

I am very interested in this thread as I have a beautiful Irish sport horse that I imported direct as a 4 year old last October but she has refused to trot since her arrival - I have never come across this before and have tried all sorts of remedies! She had a lump on her neck (where a neck strap would sit) and I thought this was the problem - had it scanned and it was just a soft tissue injury that vet said should cause no issues. Had back x-rayed = all clear. Have had Physio/chiro/equine massage with nothing found but minor bits and pieces that shouldn't really be causing anything significant. I did give her 10 days of gastrogaurd that i had left over from another horse but I didn't really think that was the problem so I wasn't really bothered that it wasn't a full course of treatment. Now I'm not so sure! My horse is also ridiculously itchy - I clipped her and treated her for live just in case, wormed her with ivermectin, bathed her with Malaseb and have taken her off all hard feed to no avail. She has me stumped!! She isn't insured as she has had this issue since she stepped off the lorry so I couldn't insure her as a healthy horse.. Help!


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## vanrim (29 March 2015)

You won't know unless you get her scoped unfortunately. My horses were like this before they were diagnosed with ulcers but they have been treated successfully and are now clear but they are no better. They are going back for an ultrasound of the hind gut and a biopsy.




Lulup said:



			I am very interested in this thread as I have a beautiful Irish sport horse that I imported direct as a 4 year old last October but she has refused to trot since her arrival - I have never come across this before and have tried all sorts of remedies! She had a lump on her neck (where a neck strap would sit) and I thought this was the problem - had it scanned and it was just a soft tissue injury that vet said should cause no issues. Had back x-rayed = all clear. Have had Physio/chiro/equine massage with nothing found but minor bits and pieces that shouldn't really be causing anything significant. I did give her 10 days of gastrogaurd that i had left over from another horse but I didn't really think that was the problem so I wasn't really bothered that it wasn't a full course of treatment. Now I'm not so sure! My horse is also ridiculously itchy - I clipped her and treated her for live just in case, wormed her with ivermectin, bathed her with Malaseb and have taken her off all hard feed to no avail. She has me stumped!! She isn't insured as she has had this issue since she stepped off the lorry so I couldn't insure her as a healthy horse.. Help!
		
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## Lulup (30 March 2015)

Was it a sudden thing that they wouldn't trot or a gradual onset?


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## vanrim (30 March 2015)

Lulup said:



			Was it a sudden thing that they wouldn't trot or a gradual onset?
		
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The mare started napping one day out of the blue when asked to go into trot in the manage. This carried on every day for 6 months but I could always get her going. After 6 months it got worse and also I started to realise there must be something wrong. By the time the vet came out she would not trot ridden t all and if you try and get her to trot just loose in the manage she will rear and come at you but she will not trot for all the tea in China. The gelding was always impossible to get right canter but as he is only 3 I put it down to that. He was always sensitive and you could only brush him with a very soft brush or he would bite. I just put this down to quirkiness. Then in the space of a fortnight he started being reluctant to trot to refused to budge off the spot with a rider on. This happened at the same time the mare became unrideable and I finally realised there was clearly something wrong with them both and had been for the last 18 months.


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## YasandCrystal (31 March 2015)

How unlucky are you having 2 horses with ulcers, I do feel for you.
Are you sure that it's still the ulcers troubling your horse? My WB was diagnosed with ulcers following extreme aggressive behaviour and we treated those actually realising that the ulcers were symptomatic  of more serious issues. Did you get to the bottom of why your horse had ulcers? You say the behaviour became worse and worse, could there be another underlying problem with say the back or something not that obvious? My WB was xrayed for KS at the same visit he was scoped for ulcers as I believe they are a common pain symptom. Could you maybe try thermal imaging to detect a hotspot?  I used a holistic vet in the end who finds the root cause of any problem.
Also as you probably know pyloric ulcers are reknowned for being hard to treat. My horse had 1 in the pyloric region and he was treated with sucralfate as well as GG. 
After treatment with GG my holistic vet advised me to follow a 6 week herbal regime to restore hind gut health that is destroyed by the undigested food passing through the gut (the action of GG shutting down the acid pumps to a large degree). If you search for green clay and chlorella you will find my previous posts regarding this.  This helped my horse following treatment.
I am more than happy for you to pm me if I can be of any help.


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## old hand (2 April 2015)

Have been thinking about this.  Could it be your grass if it is high in potassium it may trigger the behaviour? I was going to suggest salt but in view of the ulcers I would suggest that something like Safesalt from Science supplements might be worth a try and also they do a trial pack of Prokalm which can have astounding effects if it is a stress related thing.  Years ago I had a nappy horse that upset all the others and me too.  We all upset each other in the end.  It was grass based as the fields were grazed for years and never fertilised, salt sorted them out I then calmed down too.  Nappy horse still nappy but only hated hacking out alone so we just avoided that. He competed fine even cross country so just had to give him best on that one.


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## vanrim (2 April 2015)

I have got them on a mycotoxin binder called mycosorb due to someone else posting about toxins developing on clover and I have a lot of clover in the grazing. They have free access to a salt lick in the field. I had my soil tested last year and the land is acidic but I will dig out the results and see what the potassium levels are thanks Old Hand.





old hand said:



			Have been thinking about this.  Could it be your grass if it is high in potassium it may trigger the behaviour? I was going to suggest salt but in view of the ulcers I would suggest that something like Safesalt from Science supplements might be worth a try and also they do a trial pack of Prokalm which can have astounding effects if it is a stress related thing.  Years ago I had a nappy horse that upset all the others and me too.  We all upset each other in the end.  It was grass based as the fields were grazed for years and never fertilised, salt sorted them out I then calmed down too.  Nappy horse still nappy but only hated hacking out alone so we just avoided that. He competed fine even cross country so just had to give him best on that one.
		
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## YasandCrystal (3 April 2015)

OP I suggest you take a look at the website www.calmhealthyhorses.com it explains all about potassium inbalances caused by things like clover and high calcium levels in feed.
All of mine get 2 tablespoons of salt daily in their feed it reall is NOT suffice just to offer salt licks in the field. The website is very interesting indeed. I buy a 25 kg bag of sea salt online it lasts for ages.
Another informative site about ulcers is this
http://www.lunatunesfreestyles.com/horse_ulcers.htm

I have done so much research in the past for my WBs problems hence the herbal gut remedy etc. these things worked for my boy who is changed beyond recognition.


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## Darcydoo (6 April 2015)

Mine has scoped for ulcers showing grade III ,currently on a course of Ulcergold full dose for 1 month ( re scoping Wednesday) hopefully they will be able to see if she has glandular / pyloric this time as madambe had been eating shavings !!! I also suspect she has hind gut problems so I've removed all known irritants wheat feed,oat feed, sugar beetand alfalfa  from diet. Currently on micronised linseed, chaff (  from agrobs) with pre/pro biopics and trying l glutamine. Starting simple if symptoms go happy days if not will then try the million supplements out there. My thinking is hind gut acidosis cause by to much u digested food creating lactose changing ph = unhappy. Keep feeds small and free from as much crap as possible with plenty of hay/grass we should see a difference. And also remove as much stress as possible which is also a trigger.


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## vanrim (6 April 2015)

I have started adding salt to the diet now thanks. 




YasandCrystal said:



			OP I suggest you take a look at the website www.calmhealthyhorses.com it explains all about potassium inbalances caused by things like clover and high calcium levels in feed.
All of mine get 2 tablespoons of salt daily in their feed it reall is NOT suffice just to offer salt licks in the field. The website is very interesting indeed. I buy a 25 kg bag of sea salt online it lasts for ages.
Another informative site about ulcers is this
http://www.lunatunesfreestyles.com/horse_ulcers.htm

I have done so much research in the past for my WBs problems hence the herbal gut remedy etc. these things worked for my boy who is changed beyond recognition.
		
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## Lulup (13 April 2015)

Any update on this situation? I'm following with interest x


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## vanrim (13 April 2015)

Both horses went to equine hospital to see specialist dealing with this last Friday. As they were scoped clear of grade iv pyloric ulcers 3 weeks ago but still won't trot I asked for further investigation. Ultrasound of colon was ok, blood tests were ok, they took a biopsy from colon and poo to test for nasties and I am waiting for results. Specialist has advised that pyloric ulcers take a long time to heal (there can be inflammation underneath still healing although the top looks healed) so we agree to give the horses another 2 months in the field and then if no improvement he would have to start "thinking outside the box". He said he could try what they do with foals - get poo from a healthy horse and tube it into the stomachs of my horses to reintroduce healthy gut flora. Both my vet and the specialist advised feeding a probiotic that reaches the hind gut - I can't remember the name now but apparently there are only 2 that are proven to get to the hind gut. I have bought some from the vet but just discovered I can buy it from my feed merchant too. While the gelding still kicks out when groomed the mare can now be touched all over with no response. We also managed to get her to trot in hand on the yard the other day which surprised me so I am cautiously hoping she is finally starting to improve after 3 months. The gelding seems to be taking a bit longer.





Lulup said:



			Any update on this situation? I'm following with interest x
		
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## Darcydoo (13 April 2015)

Succeed and equi shire x yea saac also makes a big difference x


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## vanrim (13 April 2015)

I have tried equisure and yea sac but these haven't made any difference.




Darcydoo said:



			Succeed and equi shire x yea saac also makes a big difference x
		
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## Darcydoo (13 April 2015)

Ok   have you removed all nasties out of diet ? Sugar/starch/soya/wheat feed/oat feed sugarbeet and basically anything chemical based that can irritate gut. We had a big difference on doing this. When  my girl lost her forward gear, and did the turning in rearing trick very reluctant to bend ,sore back,grumpy,spooky............. Diagnoised with KS,PSD hinds,SI pain , Osteo hocks ulcers which all have very similar symptoms and behaviours. A complete nightmare when she starts to go off as process of elimination to find which bit is causing the trouble.


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## vanrim (13 April 2015)

They are out on grass 24/7 with hay that hasn't been sprayed with propionic acid. Probiotic is put in a small amount of chaff so it can't be down to food they are eating at the moment.





Darcydoo said:



			Ok   have you removed all nasties out of diet ? Sugar/starch/soya/wheat feed/oat feed sugarbeet and basically anything chemical based that can irritate gut. We had a big difference on doing this. When  my girl lost her forward gear, and did the turning in rearing trick very reluctant to bend ,sore back,grumpy,spooky............. Diagnoised with KS,PSD hinds,SI pain , Osteo hocks ulcers which all have very similar symptoms and behaviours. A complete nightmare when she starts to go off as process of elimination to find which bit is causing the trouble.
		
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## mega spoilt ponies (14 April 2015)

Darcydoo said:



			Ok   have you removed all nasties out of diet ? Sugar/starch/soya/wheat feed/oat feed sugarbeet and basically anything chemical based that can irritate gut.
		
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Just out of interest darydoo, if you were to irradiate all of those things from the diet what would you feed? (I am in a similar position to vanrim). I am currently trying to remove those things but finding it hard as I need to feed hard feed due to the pills/supplements mine has.

Finding it particularly difficult to irradiate soya!


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## Darcydoo (14 April 2015)

Mine gets Agrobs chaff totally free of all nasties( red rufus ) micronised linseed and her hoof sup and yea saac. She's a TB so just up the linseed in winter. Forage plus are good supps. I also stay away from alfalfa as she's also barefoot and makes the daft and footy. L glutamine is also helpful . X


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## Darcydoo (14 April 2015)

Company's like Thunderbrooks,Agrobs and simple systems good stay clear of the commercial big feed company's feed straights so you know what your feeding.


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## Silverfire (14 April 2015)

Have you tried treating for liver fluke? They can make horses very lethargic, when mine had fluke most of them found trotting up the field a huge effort. Fasinex is fairly safe so wouldn't harm to dose them and rule it out, although it takes a few weeks to see a difference in them.


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## vanrim (15 April 2015)

I believe the SS feed caused grade iv gastric ulcers in both my horses. Having spoken to a friend's husband who used to work for Spillers - all major feed companies spend huge amounts of money testing their products and trialing them before releasing on the open market to make sure they are safe. With huge turnovers we would all know about it if people were having problems with one of their feeds. These smaller companies do not have the budgets to test or trial. When I asked SS if I was soaking the Lucie Nuts for too long and they were going off I was gobsmacked with their reply "You should be ok for up to 24 hrs in this weather" - DON'T THEY ACTUALLY KNOW!!!!!! They don't even put any advise on the bag as to how long you should soak for - they just expect you to guess. 
This has cost me £4k as I had to pay myself and the ulcers on both horses only started to improve once I had changed back to good old Dodson and Horrell. I have come across other people on these forums whose horses have actually colicked on the SS feed. I consider myself lucky that I realised in time that the food was making my horses ill - before they got colic or colitis. I would now NEVER use feed from a company that has not tested it first.



Darcydoo said:



			Company's like Thunderbrooks,Agrobs and simple systems good stay clear of the commercial big feed company's feed straights so you know what your feeding.
		
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## vanrim (15 April 2015)

Liver Fluke would have shown up on the blood tests and these were all ok for both horses.



Silverfire said:



			Have you tried treating for liver fluke? They can make horses very lethargic, when mine had fluke most of them found trotting up the field a huge effort. Fasinex is fairly safe so wouldn't harm to dose them and rule it out, although it takes a few weeks to see a difference in them.
		
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## Silverfire (15 April 2015)

vanrim said:



			Liver Fluke would have shown up on the blood tests and these were all ok for both horses.
		
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Actually they don't always, unless horse is very poor. Some might have a mild anemia. My horses had fluke back in 2013. I blood tested three, the two worst weight wise and the third one who was just lethargic no obvious weight loss. The two had raised Fibrinogen and were Anemic but had normal WBC, GGT and Albumin, the third her GGT was just over normal at 51 (5-50). All were treated with Fasinex twice two weeks apart, and six weeks later blood tested back to normal and the two were slowly regaining weight and the third no longer lethargic, their GGT all tested lower too.
I remember reading an article somewhere about the first recorded cases of liver fluke in horses back in the 1950's or 60's. It said that often there was no change to bloodwork but horses would be lethargic - fit racehorses and hunters would tire easily, showjumpers refuse fences and broodmares would rapidly lose weight after foaling. 
Probably your horses don't have fluke but if you don't find anything else then it may be worth thinking about.


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## vanrim (16 April 2015)

Thanks for taking the time to post and I will certainly mention it to my vet. I have just googled it and apparently it is on the rise in the North West. You learn such a lot on these forums!




Silverfire said:



			Actually they don't always, unless horse is very poor. Some might have a mild anemia. My horses had fluke back in 2013. I blood tested three, the two worst weight wise and the third one who was just lethargic no obvious weight loss. The two had raised Fibrinogen and were Anemic but had normal WBC, GGT and Albumin, the third her GGT was just over normal at 51 (5-50). All were treated with Fasinex twice two weeks apart, and six weeks later blood tested back to normal and the two were slowly regaining weight and the third no longer lethargic, their GGT all tested lower too.
I remember reading an article somewhere about the first recorded cases of liver fluke in horses back in the 1950's or 60's. It said that often there was no change to bloodwork but horses would be lethargic - fit racehorses and hunters would tire easily, showjumpers refuse fences and broodmares would rapidly lose weight after foaling. 
Probably your horses don't have fluke but if you don't find anything else then it may be worth thinking about.
		
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## BethH (16 April 2015)

Just to say after mine went on to SS he had a huge reaction and months later with substantial vets fees still isn't right, I had a feeling it was the feed and swapped him straight back to his Top Spec feed.  I've had him 11yrs and he has always been very straightforward to do, he is such a good doer and has always rippled with energy.  He was blood tested, major organ functions fine but massively raised fibrynogen levels which calmed down 4wks later.  The lethargy was my biggest worry as so unlike him, my vet said allergy/viral infection - I still don't feel he is 100% despite the blood tests showing within normal levels - never ever again will I be persuaded to go to a small feed company & their attitude to me was dreadful, utter denial!!


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## Cgd (16 April 2015)

Vanrim that is very interesting.   I changed to SS last week for my mare who has been thru a lot during last 6 months (had peritonitis whilst on box rest for PSD and a clot in her jugular vein).   Have been concerns over her gut health after peritonitis and  poss ulcers - girthy and ruggy.  Swapped over to SS as heard good things and its more natural no wheat / molasses etc.  First feed was on the Friday - mixed in with old feed.  Rode her in the school on the Monday and OMG ... she was awful.  Reluctant to go forward , disunited , hoppy rearing , terrible transitions.   First thing I said to trainer was my goodness I would think this is a case of bad ulcers?  After everything bother myself and she have been thru I have almost decided I wont put her thru further poking and prodding and maybe I should turn her away.  But maybe it was the feed.  It was the only thing that had changed? I stopped it straight away and she is back on basic D&H high fibre nuts again.    riding her in the school tomorrow and vet wants an update.   Any thoughts ?


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## fuzzle (16 April 2015)

Have you had her back checked??  mine had ulcers and she had back problems due to the way she was holding herself, i went to Mark Windsor worked wonders!!! also i could not ride in the manage even though she was ulcer free she would just not go forward so i decided to make life fun for her and did lots of hacking and canter work in big fields made a massive difference changing her whole routine of work, now she is forward and easy to ride, i think she associated the manage with pain!!!  worth a try hun wish you all the best xxxxxx


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## BethH (17 April 2015)

Suddenly occurred that I should add on from my previous post to say that having been so worried about the lethargy, my very forward horse would just utterly give up like the power switch had been turned off after a few minutes of riding I decided to give him a blood detox.  Was amazed at the results after a few days on Global Herbs restore, it really perked him up, might be worth a try.  I am still not convinced he is 100% but he has been a lot better and happier since, but I still think there might be something underlying going on - my vet also said that the best thing to avoid ulcers is plenty of turnout and good old fashioned grass!  Good luck I completely understand your frustration - mine has also become very stale in the school which he never was before, am just trying to build up some muscle in walk on some hilly hacks to help get him a bit fitter in the hope that loss of condition could be adding to it!


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## Cgd (17 April 2015)

Oh she is amazing out hacking !


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## vanrim (17 April 2015)

This is funny because I had the vet check their backs last week. Both horses are very stiff so I have a physio coming on Sunday. If this doesn't help I will look into taking them to Ashbrook as Mark Windsor does clinics there. I have also decided that if they get to a point where I can sit on them I will ride in the field and not the manage to keep things easy for them.






fuzzle said:



			Have you had her back checked??  mine had ulcers and she had back problems due to the way she was holding herself, i went to Mark Windsor worked wonders!!! also i could not ride in the manage even though she was ulcer free she would just not go forward so i decided to make life fun for her and did lots of hacking and canter work in big fields made a massive difference changing her whole routine of work, now she is forward and easy to ride, i think she associated the manage with pain!!!  worth a try hun wish you all the best xxxxxx
		
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## berns (19 April 2015)

I'm convinced the clover was causing hind gut with mine and like you after changing paddock and feeds she is a different horse


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## Impu1sion (22 April 2015)

I was really interested to read this thread, Catembi could have been writing about my horse.  Very interested to hear any updates.  My horse doesn't react as violently as yours, Vanrim, she just 'shuts down'.  Been down the Omeprazole route also.  She has actually been a little bit better since farrier put her in heartbar shoes as she has a foot imbalance on RF and she is stronger on this diagonal pair.  She has a thickened suspensory on her RH so this is always in my mind too - she is like the girl with the curl - when she is good, she is very very good, but when she is bad, she is horrid!  I'm not prepared to whip her till she moves as directed by vet, who thought it was behavioural.


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## est-1978 (29 April 2015)

Hi there

I've been reading this thread with interest as my gelding was successfully treated for ulcers last year after a summer of awful behaviour and improved dramatically. Bad behaviour started again in Jan so had him scoped again and found new ulcer. He has been bone scanned and nerve blocked as well to find out if underlying cause but nothing major showed up.

He has finished 4th week of full dose of gg as is slightly better but still snappy, girthy, air bites when mounting and won't trot in the arena. Just plants and kicks out. Although fine lunging and happy as Larry out hacking. 

Did your horse improve in the arena in the end? Mine was scoped clear today but still will not trot, sometimes he will work through the planting and do some really lovely work but I hate pushing him through in case he's still in pain.

Am wondering hind gut issue? Although vet dismissive :/

Any advice on hind gut supplement? 

Thanks 




fuzzle said:



			Have you had her back checked??  mine had ulcers and she had back problems due to the way she was holding herself, i went to Mark Windsor worked wonders!!! also i could not ride in the manage even though she was ulcer free she would just not go forward so i decided to make life fun for her and did lots of hacking and canter work in big fields made a massive difference changing her whole routine of work, now she is forward and easy to ride, i think she associated the manage with pain!!!  worth a try hun wish you all the best xxxxxx
		
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## Silverfire (30 April 2015)

How are your two horses doing Vanrim?


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## vanrim (5 May 2015)

Silverfire said:



			How are your two horses doing Vanrim?
		
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Both horses are finally improving after being on field rest for 6 weeks after being scoped clear of ulcers. Vet thinks their hind gut bacteria was out of kilter and they have been on a probiotic that reaches the hind gut - protexin gut balancer. They have had physio as both were very stiff from holding themselves funny with the ulcers and I am about to try acupuncture as I have read reports that this can help. Both horses are now trotting and cantering in the field whereas up to this point they would go no faster than walk even if the other horses were running around. I am cautiously optimistic that they are on the road to recovery and I am planning to try sitting on one of them next week.


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## Tangaroo (15 May 2015)

How are things going vanrim? My boy is the same as yours as in wont trot so im taking great interest in how you are managing yours.


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## fuzzle (15 May 2015)

vanrim, please give us all a update on how yours are doing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  so interested in this post xxxx


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## catembi (16 May 2015)

Impu1sion, I will have saved up enough to go the KS xray route by payday (24th May) so will get booked in asap & see what we find.  Will report back.

It's so odd - Trev looks bright & alert, is moulting properly (didn't shed very well when ulcery), eating fine, looks amazing...but he won't go.  We're at the 'few strides of trot' plateau atm & have been there without change for several weeks.  He does stride out quite nicely in walk & isn't what I would call 'lame' but in trot the back end doesn't do anything.

The ideal result for me would be to find the sort of KS that's fixable with the new surgery.  The worst thing would be to find nothing & be no further on.  He is by far & away the most athletic thing I've ever sat on, even including my Cruising showjumper (in avatar).  It would be so amazing to have him back full power as he can practically jump a house from anywhere & his paces & balance for dr are just phenomenal.

T x


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## fuzzle (16 May 2015)

My horse had ulcers, all going fab for last 18 months due to change of routine and been on maintenance  supplement for ulcers, until last week, went to ride her became spooky, planted bad attitude and would not go forward then she did the most amazing vertical rear!!!!!!!!!  i thought ulcers straight away, straight to the vets and hey presto no ulcers, back to square1, had the saddle fitter out and guess what, it is the saddle, this saddle was from a master saddle fitters which is 12 months old  has caused damage to her back, can't use it again and my poor horse now poorly with bad back, physio and osteopath now all booked to get her back right and of course a new master saddler to get the correct saddle for her. What i am saying is what i find with mine is that if there is any pain anywhere she reacts has if she has ulcers so maybe not ulcers there maybe a underlying problem somewhere else!!! Just a thought to the above, my friends horse would t go forward last year, very lethargic  loss of energy but looked amazing he was only 10years old and it ended up been cushsions, just a thought most vets do this test free maybe a problem eliminated. xxxxx


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## Regandal (16 May 2015)

I've just started my new horse on chia seeds.  He was showing signs of gut discomfort, been on them just over a week and seeing a huge improvement.  Apparently they are effective in easing hind gut ulceration as they form a gel which coats the inside of the gut.  In true horse-fanatic tradition, I'm trying them on myself as well!  Definite easing of mild IBS symptoms.


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## RockyRoad (17 May 2015)

I bought my daughter a 5 year old Connie x pony last September. He was great for the first two months then is education started going backwards. We had the usual things checked back, teeth, saddle etc. we invested in a new saddle but things didn't really improve. He showed no signs of lameness or pain anywhere. We persevered with him then about 6 weeks ago he reared vertically when a stronger rider pushed him forward. Convinced it's was behavioural, as again we went through the usually checks of back etc, we sent him off to be schooled. After three weeks it's was agreed we would fetch him back as no progress was being made and it was costing a lot of money. It was still felt that it was not pain related and that the pony was just very naughty. I refused to believe this so I took him to vets for peace of mind. I wished I'd taken him earlier. Vets thought kissing spine initially. He was booked in for a full assessment and after various X-rays, scans etc kissing spine was eliminated. He was diagnosed with the condition OCD in his hocks. However it was felt that there was something else causing him problems. They decided to scope him even though the classic sings of ulcers weren't present. I'm so glad they did, his ulcers are that bad he even has them in his oesophagus. They've been graded at 3. He is on a full dose of GG and will be re-scoped in four weeks. Treatment for the OCD will start in 10 days once the GG has had time to kick in. I feel very disheartened having read this thread as I thought the answer to all our problems had been resolved. My feeling is now that the behavioural problems will still be present and my daughter will still have a pony that she can't enjoy. Can someone please tell me the names of the supplements that help the hind gut. I'm also very interested to find out more about the salt as we've noticed he won't leave his salt lick alone when in his stable.


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## Darcydoo (17 May 2015)

Hi Rockyroad   I'm finding that so far we've only needed to add Yea saac lots of turnout and ad lib hay and the removal of all things chemical and by products that can irritate. Have  a look on FB horses with ulcers in the files is a list of supplements and what they do . Mine just gets Agrobs chaff ( totally chemical free no oils ) micronised linseed,limestone flour,yea saac and salt. Mine also has OCD hocks and therefore cannot give bute of Devils claw so we use Boswellia as its does both hocks and digestion . They say alfalfa ( high calcium content and sugarbeet for the pectins ) but my mare is not good with either of these alfalfa make her footy and loopy and the sugarbeet actually irritates her probably due the the chemicals they use to process it . Hope this helps xx


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## Impu1sion (17 May 2015)

catembi said:



			Impu1sion, I will have saved up enough to go the KS xray route by payday (24th May) so will get booked in asap & see what we find.  Will report back.

It's so odd - Trev looks bright & alert, is moulting properly (didn't shed very well when ulcery), eating fine, looks amazing...but he won't go.  We're at the 'few strides of trot' plateau atm & have been there without change for several weeks.  He does stride out quite nicely in walk & isn't what I would call 'lame' but in trot the back end doesn't do anything.

The ideal result for me would be to find the sort of KS that's fixable with the new surgery.  The worst thing would be to find nothing & be no further on.  He is by far & away the most athletic thing I've ever sat on, even including my Cruising showjumper (in avatar).  It would be so amazing to have him back full power as he can practically jump a house from anywhere & his paces & balance for dr are just phenomenal.

T x
		
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Thanks, Catembi, I am very interested to hear how you get on with the KS investigation.  I am amazed at the amount of people (and horses!) with this problem - I thought it was just me - I have struggled with this for the best part of 7 years and have a few tools in the box now that work most of the time.. (have you tried any of these, Catembi?)  1. Feed a few handfuls of alfa A before riding.  2. Put saddle on for 15/20 mins before so back is warm. 3. Walk for 20 minutes first.  4. Stay sitting in trot and let horse dawdle a bit, but keep asking for trot - with a long rein (I know, I look like a complete numpty). If I go rising it is worse.  5. Try to get into canter and get off their back for a few circuits.  After 20 minutes or so of this, I can usually get some decent work out of her.  
Believe it or not, we have been placed in top 10 at the Regionals every year with this problem!  She has scored 70%+ scores at affiliated competitions when in the warm up I have felt like crying!! Oh, and if someone pretends to lunge with me riding, she is forward  -  also some poles encourages her too.  She is worse if I wear spurs though I have worn them for years, she really just plants then, so I have stopped wearing them for now.   The hard part is, she has never looked lame!  Interested to know if any of these scenarios sound familiar to anyone else..or if anyone else has any helpful hints?
Ps Catembi, have you tried to ride him behind another horse?  Works for me sometimes, but like you I have mine at home so ride on my own most of the time.


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## RockyRoad (18 May 2015)

Darcydoo said:



			Hi Rockyroad   I'm finding that so far we've only needed to add Yea saac lots of turnout and ad lib hay and the removal of all things chemical and by products that can irritate. Have  a look on FB horses with ulcers in the files is a list of supplements and what they do . Mine just gets Agrobs chaff ( totally chemical free no oils ) micronised linseed,limestone flour,yea saac and salt. Mine also has OCD hocks and therefore cannot give bute of Devils claw so we use Boswellia as its does both hocks and digestion . They say alfalfa ( high calcium content and sugarbeet for the pectins ) but my mare is not good with either of these alfalfa make her footy and loopy and the sugarbeet actually irritates her probably due the the chemicals they use to process it . Hope this helps xx
		
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Hi thank you for your reply. I know this sounds ridiculous but I don't use FB. I have tried to search the Internet for irritants re gastric ulcers but I'm not having much luck. Do you have a link I could follow for FB. rhsnk you.


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## vanrim (18 May 2015)

UPDATE EVERYONE.
Ok both horses were scoped clear mid Feb but still wouldn't trot. They had ultrasound of hind gut, biopsy of hind gut and poo tested for nasties. Everything was ok. Blood test also ok. Conclusion was that the feed I was using had not only caused gastric ulcers but had also killed all the good hind gut bacteria so we started them both on a pro biotic containing Saccharomyces cerevisiae. According to the vet specialist at the equine hospital this is one of only 2 probiotics that actually reaches the hind gut before being broken down. I noticed an improvement within 36 hours. We agreed to give them 3 months in the field to let nature take it's course. I recently lunged the gelding and whereas before he would only trot with his ears flat back he is now quite happy to trot on the lunge so I plan to keep going with him and try riding him next week. The mare has always been much more tricky but before if I asked her to trot loose in the manege she would rear vertical and come at me with her ears flat back. I swear she would have killed me before she would have gone into trot. Now she does rear but I can then send her into trot and she will canter of her own accord too. I plan to build up the loose schooling slowly until the rearing stops and then I will try riding her. This has been an incredibly slow process and a real learning curve for me. The feed company (not one of the big well known names) has admitted that the soaked Lucie Nuts could ferment and go acidic if soaked for too long. However they couldn't tell me at what point they go off just that they should be ok for 24 hours. As I was soaking overnight they are clearly NOT OK for up to 24 hours and the food never looked or smelt off and the horses always eat it. This has cost me approx £4,000 vets fees and the lesson I have learnt is NEVER EVER BUY FEED FROM A SMALL FEED COMPANY AS THEY DO NOT HAVE THE RESOURCES OF THE BIG COMPANIES TO DO TESTS AND TRIALS ON THE FEED. This particular company thought trials on 15 horses was sufficient! I have also come across other people on various forums who have had horses badly affected by the feed.


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## fuzzle (18 May 2015)

vanrim said:



			UPDATE EVERYONE.
Ok both horses were scoped clear mid Feb but still wouldn't trot. They had ultrasound of hind gut, biopsy of hind gut and poo tested for nasties. Everything was ok. Blood test also ok. Conclusion was that the feed I was using had not only caused gastric ulcers but had also killed all the good hind gut bacteria so we started them both on a pro biotic containing Saccharomyces cerevisiae. According to the vet specialist at the equine hospital this is one of only 2 probiotics that actually reaches the hind gut before being broken down. I noticed an improvement within 36 hours. We agreed to give them 3 months in the field to let nature take it's course. I recently lunged the gelding and whereas before he would only trot with his ears flat back he is now quite happy to trot on the lunge so I plan to keep going with him and try riding him next week. The mare has always been much more tricky but before if I asked her to trot loose in the manege she would rear vertical and come at me with her ears flat back. I swear she would have killed me before she would have gone into trot. Now she does rear but I can then send her into trot and she will canter of her own accord too. I plan to build up the loose schooling slowly until the rearing stops and then I will try riding her. This has been an incredibly slow process and a real learning curve for me. The feed company (not one of the big well known names) has admitted that the soaked Lucie Nuts could ferment and go acidic if soaked for too long. However they couldn't tell me at what point they go off just that they should be ok for 24 hours. As I was soaking overnight they are clearly NOT OK for up to 24 hours and the food never looked or smelt off and the horses always eat it. This has cost me approx £4,000 vets fees and the lesson I have learnt is NEVER EVER BUY FEED FROM A SMALL FEED COMPANY AS THEY DO NOT HAVE THE RESOURCES OF THE BIG COMPANIES TO DO TESTS AND TRIALS ON THE FEED. This particular company thought trials on 15 horses was sufficient! I have also come across other people on various forums who have had horses badly affected by the feed.
		
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Oh wow!!!!!!  well they do say we  are forever learning with horses!!!  surprising you not got ulcers yourself with what you have been  threw, very interested in the product your vet has put him on, where do you buy if from?? think your been very sensible too by giving your horses time out to recover, thats what i did with mine, wishing you all the best and please keep us posted how you do get on, this has been amazing post which a lot have learned so much from, personal thank you  from me whom is so interested  in ulcers  xxxx


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## catembi (19 May 2015)

Okay, so we're booked in for KS xrays on 3 June.  Shall see what the verdict is.  The jackpot would be to find something that explains the utter lack of performance and which is also fixable.  Hope we don't either find a) nothing (=back to drawing board) or b) something NOT fixable.

T x


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## Starbuck (19 May 2015)

After mine finished ulcer treatment I found that he needed myofacia release as he was tight over the back and girth areas. It made him grumpy and sore- worse behaviour than when he had ulcers. So far he seems sweeter, but he may need a few more sessions to keep on top of things.


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## fuzzle (19 May 2015)

catembi said:



			Okay, so we're booked in for KS xrays on 3 June.  Shall see what the verdict is.  The jackpot would be to find something that explains the utter lack of performance and which is also fixable.  Hope we don't either find a) nothing (=back to drawing board) or b) something NOT fixable.

T x
		
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Just remember all horses have some  form of kissing spine, i went to a vets talk on this last week!!  if they think it has kissing spine by x ray, they then should block out the vertebra by local anasetic, then you should ride your horse, if its loads better then it will be kissing spine. let us know how you get on. fingers crossed for you xx


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## Starbuck (19 May 2015)

Just seen the update- amazing. I hope the progress continues.


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## Impu1sion (19 May 2015)

That's great news!  So pleased that you have an answer.  Also good luck to you, Catembi on 3rd June.


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## catembi (19 May 2015)

That's useful, Fuzzle.  In that case, I'll take tack.  (They didn't say to.) TBH, they're not remotely interested in getting to the bottom of it.  They seem to have the attitude that he's just a 10 a penny cr*ppy ex-racer & I'm just a neurotic munchausens by proxy stupid owner.  Everything is such an uphill struggle.  But he was a successful 2-miler, so surely there is something wrong if he can't trot...?

T x


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## Tangaroo (20 May 2015)

My boy had his back x-rayed and the vet was a little bit concerned about one spot, so he anaesthetised it and i rode him and he was still refusing to trot and kicking out! My vet has virtually said he doesn't know where to go next so chuck him out in the field and forget about him.  Im now on my own trying to work out the next plan of action.


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