# The 20% rule



## Wagtail (29 October 2016)

I just had my five year old weighed on a weigh bridge. She is just over 15 hands and weighs 471 kg. That means that by the 20% rule she can carry up to 94 kg (which is almost 15 stone). 

Personally, I find this quite ridiculous. She is about a 3 on the condition score but if she was overweight she would be able to carry even more. 

But this rule seems to be about all we have regarding weight carrying abilities of our horses. Can we not come up with a better way with all our combined knowledge?


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## rowan666 (29 October 2016)

Common sence and a bit of empathy towards the horse should be enough, saddly many riders seem to lack these qualities. I agree the 20% rule is majorly flawed


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## The Fuzzy Furry (29 October 2016)

I prefer to work with 15% as an absolute max, but then break this down as to how the rider can ride & what the horse is able to do.


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## Goldenstar (29 October 2016)

The biggest issue with percentage rules is that you must do calculation based on the horses ideal weight anything else is silly .
Personally I think 20 is to much 10 to little just based on common sense and what I know works by works I mean the horses have had long working lives so clearly cope clearly you can't put a huge person on a tiny horse but that aside the biggest thing that effects a horses weight carrying ability is its back conformation and it's way of going .
I have seen it over and over with hunters the ones that last  have good shaped well muscled backs and have a way of going that makes the work easy on them.
Because of this I don't buy horses that pull IME they simply wear out faster than those that don't .


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## ycbm (29 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			I just had my five year old weighed on a weigh bridge. She is just over 15 hands and weighs 471 kg. That means that by the 20% rule she can carry up to 94 kg (which is almost 15 stone). 

Personally, I find this quite ridiculous. She is about a 3 on the condition score but if she was overweight she would be able to carry even more. 

But this rule seems to be about all we have regarding weight carrying abilities of our horses. Can we not come up with a better way with all our combined knowledge?
		
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I agree, the 20% is  too high.

I believe it has come from a limited study where they find that 20% was where the horse began to  show signs that the weight was too high. I think there was another very limited study that shows actual damage occurring at 20% and changes at 15%.

I think 15% including tack is about right, but it should include any excess weight the horse is carrying itself. And be lower for poorly conformed animals, the old and the very young.


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## ROMANY 1959 (29 October 2016)

I read today that ROR are applying 17% rider and tack rule to all their events now... 
I was stewarding at BE a while back and I saw one lady, on a 15h horse who was not big boned, she did look way over weight for the horse... she was spilling out over her saddle and horse was sweated up, maybe they all should apply a sensible rule from next season, that gives riders all winter to shed weight and feel better all round.
I stopped riding 3 years ago when medicine for my health problems made me gain weight .
So I now get my horsey fix other ways


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## Mongoose11 (29 October 2016)

No, of course she wouldn't be able to carry more if she were overweight. The 20% rule applies to horses in peak condition but then I'm sure you know this. Do you mean to say that 'some might assume' that she could carry more? 

You're also nowhere near her limit.


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## FfionWinnie (29 October 2016)

I'd be very interested in how "a study" could possibly draw any conclusions whatsoever since no two horses are the same nor do they have the same life experiences, injuries, work load and accidents. 

In my own personal study of my own horses over the last 4 years, the one which is the lightest therefore I am much nearer to the 20% "rule" on is the one which has never given me a day's worry ever.  I keep buying a bigger one only for something to go wrong with it and end up back on her (and before anyone says something rude about my care one died of EGS and the other already had a problem before I bought it which I didn't know about). 

Horses like people break, some live long healthy working lives, some don't. I don't believe it's possible to say for sure why this occurs. 

As ever, one should use your common sense. If your horse is continually lame you are probably doing something wrong or it's not up to the job. There are thousands of reasons why that may be. One could be weight, use your common sense to decide if that is it.


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## ycbm (29 October 2016)

One study used ten Arabs to try to get a close as they could to identical and I think that study took before and after joint x rays. I think the other study was done by vital signs and performance. I would like to see some long term large scale studies done but I don't think it will happen.

Seeing  14 stone people on slight 16hh thoroughbred horses  doesn't sit right with me at all.


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## Mongoose11 (29 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			One study used ten Arabs to try to get a close as they could to identical and I think that study took before and after joint x rays. I think the other study was done by vital signs and performance. I would like to see some long term large scale studies done but I don't think it will happen.

Seeing  14 stone people on slight 16hh thoroughbred horses  doesn't sit right with me at all.
		
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Is that just an aesthetic preference though? The same percentage body weight with a different pairing could well sit right with your eye.


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## MrsNorris (29 October 2016)

When I was young and in PC many, many years ago, we were told that the rider should be not more than 1/7 the weight of the fit horse, which equates to just over 14%. Personally, I think that's about right, I wouldn't expect any horse of mine to do anything other than very light hacking (walking) carrying 20%.


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## cobgoblin (29 October 2016)

Mongoose11 said:



			Is that just an aesthetic preference though? The same percentage body weight with a different pairing could well sit right with your eye.
		
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Funnily enough I think you could do quite a good study using aesthetic preference. If you asked 100 experienced riders to assess various pairings of horses and riders and then retrospectively analysed the weights and percentages....I reckon you'd get a pretty good idea. Perhaps better than some of the nefarious studies.


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## Mongoose11 (29 October 2016)

cobgoblin said:



			Funnily enough I think you could do quite a good study using aesthetic preference. If you asked 100 experienced riders to assess various pairings of horses and riders and then retrospectively analysed the weights and percentages....I reckon you'd get a pretty good idea. Perhaps better than some of the nefarious studies.
		
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Perhaps, but not if your study was to use 'experienced riders' who already have a negative view of overweight people or an obsession with weight.

People who are 14 stone can look vastly different. Imagine taking ten 14 stone riders and putting them all on the same horse. I guarantee those 'experienced riders' would agree that some 14 stone riders were suitable and others were not - despite the load being exactly the same for the horse.


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## cobgoblin (29 October 2016)

Mongoose11 said:



			Oh I agree, but not if your study was to use 'experienced riders' who already have a negative view of overweight people or an obsession with weight.

People who are 14 stone can look vastly different. Imagine taking ten 14 stone riders and putting them all on the same horse. I guarantee those 'experienced riders' would agree that some 14 stone riders were suitable and others were not - despite the load being exactly the same for the horse.
		
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100 was just a convenient number to put down...it is likely that the number of riders prejudiced against overweight people would be balanced by those that think they and everyone else weighs less than they do. Increasing the numbers of judges and pairings would up the validity of the study, but interfering with the selection of experienced riders would skew it.


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## Antw23uk (29 October 2016)

I think this forum should be judge and jury ... everyone post a pic of themselves on there horses and we tell you if your too fat to ride it. Simple


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## Mongoose11 (29 October 2016)

Antw23uk said:



			I think this forum should be judge and jury ... everyone post a pic of themselves on there horses and we tell you if your too fat to ride it. Simple 

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That would be great! A simple yes or no just from the photo - after that people could reveal their/horse stats and condition. I think a lot of skewed thinking would be shown. There are far more on here that err on the right side of caution and there are plenty that are totally ridiculous in their view of what a horse can carry wanting nothing but a 17.2 ID carrying more than 14 stone &#128580;


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## Elf On A Shelf (29 October 2016)

Antw23uk said:



			I think this forum should be judge and jury ... everyone post a pic of themselves on there horses and we tell you if your too fat to ride it. Simple 

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I will use any excuse to show of GrayMo &#128541; plus I have a thick skin so criticise away!


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## Antw23uk (29 October 2016)

EKW said:



			I will use any excuse to show of GrayMo &#128541; plus I have a thick skin so criticise away!






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You pass and your horse is beautiful


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## Wagtail (29 October 2016)

EKW said:



			I will use any excuse to show of GrayMo &#55357;&#56861; plus I have a thick skin so criticise away!






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Lovely pairing. I have no idea what you weigh but although your horse is quite fine, she looks very strongly built and sturdy. I expect she is more than comfortable with your weight.


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## Wagtail (29 October 2016)

Thanks for your opinions so far. I am pleased to see that most people feel the 20% is too high and a very flawed rule. Obviously, common sense and experience/knowledge is what is needed in order to make a judgement. However, the horse world is full of people that have none of that, or who are novices and need some guidance. When people ask if they are too heavy on here, they usually get told by at least one person that so long as they are no more than 20% of their horse's weight, they will be fine. I read somewhere, many years ago about a different formula. It took into account horse's weight, horse's ideal weight, ratio of cannon bone measurement compared to height, length of back compared to height and measurement across the loins. It then applied a slight percentage increase to the weight carrying ability if the horse was either Arab or TB because according to the article, these breeds had better bone density. I have searched for this many times and cannot find it. I have a feeling I read it in a book but cannot remember where.


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## Elf On A Shelf (29 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Lovely pairing. I have no idea what you weigh but although your horse is quite fine, she looks very strongly built and sturdy. I expect she is more than comfortable with your weight.
		
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He &#128521; is a 17hh tb. That pic was taken when he was 13yo so fully mature. I weigh about 10St so with full kit, and his saddle is fairly heavy, it would be nearer 10st10-12lbs.


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## Wagtail (29 October 2016)

EKW said:



			He &#55357;&#56841; is a 17hh tb. That pic was taken when he was 13yo so fully mature. I weigh about 10St so with full kit, and his saddle is fairly heavy, it would be nearer 10st10-12lbs.
		
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Lol, I looked and couldn't see a sheath. Sorry. He's nicely built for such a tall TB.


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## Leo Walker (29 October 2016)

What I read on here seems totally at odds with what vets/physios/instructors say to me. And just before anyone says that they are telling me what I want to hear, they arent. They have all been asked when I wasnt riding the horse and had no intention of, with the exception of one person. Ironically I dont actually ride mine anymore because I am too heavy now, but I did ride him at 22% with no issues and would do so again. The research I've read says that at both 15 and 20% horses were fine and showed no signs of stress or exertion, however they did start to at 25% and it was noticeable at 30%.

Mine is the very definition of a weight carrier, tiny short cannons, 10+" of bone in front, 11" behind, hes shortish backed and compact and incredibly wide across the loins. I'm pretty sure he would carry me with absolutely no issues now and I'm 26%. I chose not to because I dont think he should have to. But the idea of him only being able to comfortably carry 11stone and a few pounds, including tack is ridiculous


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## Cortez (29 October 2016)

This is me: whaddya think? (Sorry, I have almost no "normal" pictures as we don't do normal stuff).


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## Tyanilth (29 October 2016)

Not sure if this has been posted before but there's a good article here about the 20% rule - http://www.horsechannel.com/horse-news/2014/10/01-too-heavy-to-ride.aspx


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## ycbm (29 October 2016)

EKW said:



			I will use any excuse to show of GrayMo &#128541; plus I have a thick skin so criticise away!






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Critique your photo..   ummm.......your boots are too short if you want to be seen in public in the right dressage circles . ?

Grand combination


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## ycbm (29 October 2016)

Cortez said:



			This is me: whaddya think? (Sorry, I have almost no "normal" pictures as we don't do normal stuff).






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How much did the armour weigh?


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## Wagtail (29 October 2016)

Cortez said:



			This is me: whaddya think? (Sorry, I have almost no "normal" pictures as we don't do normal stuff).






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What a lovely seat you have, Cortez. I think I remember your height and weight from other threads, as well as the general height range of your horses. Looks absolutely fine to me and your lovely horses looks very comfortable.


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## EllenJay (29 October 2016)

Surely what weight the horse can carry is directly related to what you are asking them to do and their health? When you try to put a mathmatic formular onto something with so many variables you will never come up with an accurate figure.


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## KittenInTheTree (29 October 2016)

Cortez said:



			This is me: whaddya think? (Sorry, I have almost no "normal" pictures as we don't do normal stuff).






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Hmm, you may have taken the idea of "donning a tin hat" a little too far there, Cortez!


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## Cortez (29 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			How much did the armour weigh?
		
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He he; not much - it's a resin-polymer.


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## zaminda (29 October 2016)

For me it is not just the weight but what you are doing with them. For endurance the weight is 75kg, which is too much for many small arabs especially over those distances. I find it very strange that they have never questioned this with all the problems that have surrounded endurance. I would like to see the endurance world do a study weighing every horse and then the rider with, and recording any problems. It would be quite possible to do at the FEI rides, as they weigh the riders anyway.


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## ycbm (29 October 2016)

Ddd



Mongoose11 said:



			Is that just an aesthetic preference though? The same percentage body weight with a different pairing could well sit right with your eye.
		
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Absolutely not aesthetic, no. I did not say 'sit right with my eye', I said 'sit right with me'.  It's a detailed knowledge of how a horse is made, (including interesting facts like its front legs are not attached by anything but soft tissue, that it uses its stomach muscles to hold up a rider etc), a knowledge of how much 20% of my own bodyweight feels like, a knowledge that pressure of over 1.5lbs/in sq is known to cause skin damage, and a knowledge as an experienced 10st  rider of how my own shifts in balance affects horses.

Horses aren't beasts of burden any more, I want them to be happy athletes.

You refer in a later post than this one above to experienced riders being prejudiced against fat riders. We aren't. We just know that it's a sport, and like any sport it's actually *very*  difficult to do well if you are obese enough to weight 20% of a decent size horse. It's not prejudice, it's reality


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## Cortez (29 October 2016)

Kaimar said:



			Hmm, you may have taken the idea of "donning a tin hat" a little too far there, Cortez!
		
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Yeah, it's handy.....

Horse is actually a pony; she's 14.2h, half-Friesian, built like a brick you-know-what (but not overly heavy boned), and has been humping my not inconsiderable 11 stone plus a heavy medieval saddle around for close to 17 years now without a day's complaint. She is however extremely well muscled and fairly fit year-round.


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## ycbm (29 October 2016)

Cortez said:



			He he; not much - it's a resin-polymer.
		
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You look fantastic!  Both of you


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## ycbm (29 October 2016)

Cortez said:



			Yeah, it's handy.....

Horse is actually a pony; she's 14.2h, half-Friesian, built like a brick you-know-what (but not overly heavy boned), and has been humping my not inconsiderable 11 stone plus a heavy medieval saddle around for close to 17 years now without a day's complaint. She is however extremely well muscled and fairly fit year-round.
		
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I guessing that would be 15-17% ?


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## Cortez (29 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			You look fantastic!  Both of you 

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Well thank you, I'm proud of me horse, bless her. 

But the point is, she's been carrying quite close to the "limit" for all of her working life and has never, ever had a lame step, sore back, minor niggle...nothing. I have others who are also small by "normal" criteria (14.2 - 15.1) and not gurt big cobs either, quite fine; likewise no problems. But I am careful, they are all worked with the health of their backs, joints and muscles in mind, not asked to do anything they are not ready for and kept ticking over in the off season. So horses CAN carry reasonable amounts of weight, perhaps more than most people think. HOWEVER....I've just returned from a trip where I saw some really quite enormous people riding. I cannot imagine what sort of horse would be able to comfortably carry them.....in reality they shouldn't consider subjecting any horse to that.


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## Cortez (29 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			I guessing that would be 15-17% ?
		
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At least.


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## Mongoose11 (29 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			Ddd
You refer in a later post than this one above to experienced riders being prejudiced against fat riders. We aren't. We just know that it's a sport, and like any sport it's actually *very*  difficult to do well if you are obese enough to weight 20% of a decent size horse. It's not prejudice, it's reality
		
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No, I did not. I didn't say that experienced riders are prejudiced. I suggested a skew if the study used experienced riders who were prejudiced. 

I think I am very realistic about weight carrying ability while others are just barmy.

I'd say that Cortez would be nearer 18% on that horse if not more. 

I also agree that it depends on activity level regarding suitability.


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## Leo Walker (29 October 2016)

Mongoose11 said:



			I think I am very realistic about weight carrying ability while others are just barmy.
		
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Cortez is fine even though shes heavier than people said is ok because shes not fat and its a very pleasing picture. Would it still be ok if she was shorter and fatter looking and less aesthetically pleasing? I doubt it! We've been here before with the weight bashing. I just find some of it incredibly peculiar!


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## FfionWinnie (29 October 2016)

Cortez said:



			I am careful, they are all worked with the health of their backs, joints and muscles in mind, not asked to do anything they are not ready for and kept ticking over in the off season. . .
		
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Here is the crux of the matter. Too many people sloping around in arenas a few times a week and little else and the horses never actually being conditioned or trained correctly.  They are also usually over fed on the wrong sort of food and not conditioned to the work either. Waving carrots around does not maketh a riding horse. 

Can I please borrow your tin hat Cortez


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## ycbm (29 October 2016)

So can we start our own formula?  Here's my first go.

Absolute maximum for any horse of any type - 20%

Young, old, not in regular conditioning work of a serious nature - deduct 20%

Horse is overweight - deduct the amount of weight that the horse is carrying in his own fat.

Rider is unbalanced/novice/poor muscle tone - deduct 20%

Horse is average width across the loins  and fairly good conformation - minus 20%

Horse is narrow across the loins/long in the back/long legged especially in the cannon bones/small tight joints -  minus 30%

Maximum deduction for multiple issues 50%


So a horse like Frankiecobs, in regular work of the right kind, with a competent rider, can carry 20%, but the same weight lightweight ex flat racer with a wobbly rider would only carry 10%.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (29 October 2016)

I would be interested to see what you think about my horse and I as a combo. I am very aware of the fact that I am overweight, and have begun to make a conscious effort to loose some to benefit him. 

The first photo is a horrendous one of him, he wasn't happy at being asked to halt and hollowed through his back and put on a fake outline, but it shows my weight the best. The second photo was taken about 30 seconds afterwards and shows more accurately the way in which he works.


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## ycbm (29 October 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			Cortez is fine even though shes heavier than people said is ok because shes not fat and its a very pleasing picture. Would it still be ok if she was shorter and fatter looking and less aesthetically pleasing? I doubt it! We've been here before with the weight bashing. I just find some of it incredibly peculiar!
		
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But no-one is weight bashing.

This is like being accused of racism for wanting to discuss immigration!


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## YorksG (29 October 2016)

Given how much emphasis we put on the conformation of the horse, perhaps we should put a little more emphasis on rider conformation. Whilst weight is an absolute, some one who weighs 12 stones weighs twelve stones whether they are 5'2" or 5'10", the way that the rider is built, their core strength, their ability to balance their weight will all influence their ability to ride. I wonder what most would consider to be the best build for riding?


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## ycbm (29 October 2016)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			I would be interested to see what you think about my horse and I as a combo. I am very aware of the fact that I am overweight, and have begun to make a conscious effort to loose some to benefit him. 

The first photo is a horrendous one of him, he wasn't happy at being asked to halt and hollowed through his back and put on a fake outline, but it shows my weight the best. The second photo was taken about 30 seconds afterwards and shows more accurately the way in which he works. 















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I think you look lovely. He's got a long enough back to carry a saddle that you aren't overflowing, you sit very nicely and he looks well strong enough to carry you. Have you any idea what percentage you are?

Ref the losing weight, I'm sure it will help you with wrapping your leg around him, rebalance your centre of gravity, and make riding really well a little easier, but I wouldn't say that he 'needs' you to lose weight at all.


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## Cortez (29 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			But no-one is weight bashing.

This is like being accused of racism for wanting to discuss immigration!
		
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Well, I am a bit: I have just returned from a trip where I saw some downright obese people riding, far too fat to be riding their (or any) horses, and told them so.


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## Mongoose11 (29 October 2016)

Cortez said:



			Well, I am a bit: I have just returned from a trip where I saw some downright obese people riding, far too fat to be riding their (or any) horses, and told them so.
		
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&#128514; This made me chuckle.

BUT I return to the idea that looks can be deceiving. My friends know they do not need to flatter or humour me and when continually pushed to ride my horse I asked them how much they thought that I weighed. Not one of them came within three and a half stone of my actual weight. I think that weight can be deceiving at both ends of the spectrum.


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## ycbm (29 October 2016)

YorksG said:



			Given how much emphasis we put on the conformation of the horse, perhaps we should put a little more emphasis on rider conformation. Whilst weight is an absolute, some one who weighs 12 stones weighs twelve stones whether they are 5'2" or 5'10", the way that the rider is built, their core strength, their ability to balance their weight will all influence their ability to ride. I wonder what most would consider to be the best build for riding?
		
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Is there any doubt?  I'm lucky enough to nearly be it. Long thigh bones, small bust,  hips wider than a man's but not as wide as most women, wide shoulder.  I miss on my trunk, which is long and sets my centre of gravity a little too high, my thighs - too fleshy on the inside - and my neck, which is so long my head whips about on the top of it!


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (29 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			I think you look lovely. He's got a long enough back to carry a saddle that you aren't overflowing, you sit very nicely and he looks well strong enough to carry you. Have you any idea what percentage you are?
		
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I am 14%-ish. I am 12.5st (79kg), I have allowed 1.5st (9.5kg) for tack and his ideal weight I have calculated to be 635kg.  If given only my percentage I wouldn't say I need to loose weight, but I know that he has had some issues with lumbar soreness and I would like to do everything I can to help.   That just plays into the camp that this is all subjective I suppose!


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## ycbm (29 October 2016)

Cortez said:



			Well, I am a bit: I have just returned from a trip where I saw some downright obese people riding, far too fat to be riding their (or any) horses, and told them so.
		
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That's not weight bashing, though, is it Cortez?  If they hadn't been on a horse would you have walked up and told them so? Wasn't the issue simply that they were too heavy to be on the horse, not that they were too fat to be on the horse?


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## KittenInTheTree (29 October 2016)

Cortez said:



			Well, I am a bit: I have just returned from a trip where I saw some downright obese people riding, far too fat to be riding their (or any) horses, and told them so.
		
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That's how people get eaten, you know...

Anyway, this article has the various methods for determining weight carrying ability:
http://www.learn-horseback-riding.com/how-much-can-a-horse-carry.html


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## rara007 (29 October 2016)

I've had my pony since he was 6- now 18. Never had a days lameness or a saddle/back issue picked up with regular physio= I'm not going to start worrying now! I'm around the 20% mark and though well put together he's not a show pony.

Just got my new boy today, he's 2 inches shorter! Had more issues in 18 months with a great big WB (nothing serious) than I have had over a decade with the pony!


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## Pigeon (29 October 2016)

I agree that I wouldn't let my horse carry 20% of his weight, but there are many factors that affect weight carrying that simply aren't taken into account. 

First is horse fitness. I have included two photos of me riding my horse to illustrate this, a couple of years apart.













I actually weigh nearly a stone more in the second photo, and yet he only appears to be struggling in the first. Horse posture is so important, and often overlooked. Imagine carrying a backpack with a hollowed, tense back - you will struggle and ache far more, even with a small weight, than if you were to carry it in a healthy way. I don't let my horse hollow even when out hacking (he goes on a loose rein but isn't allowed to giraffe) which some people don't agree with, but I think if he's going to lug around a significant weight for an hour I'd rather he did it in a non-damaging posture. Just as human body builders can become strong enough to lift massive weights, the correct conditioning will allow a horse to carry a bigger rider. 

Second is conformation. Pip admittedly has weak back conformation, and this also limits his weight carrying capacity. However people assume that heavy horse crosses, or cobs, are automatically weight carriers because they have a lot of bone, when in fact many are extremely weak through the back and loins, especially those bred for driving rather than riding. I think back conformation should be taken into account when buying a weight carrier just as much as size/bone. TBs seem to have constant back issues, even those not ridden - I expect this is partly to do with racing as babies, but also so many are long backed/roach backed/sway backed or weak backed!! Native ponies just do not have these problems, even if they are carrying much greater weights! I think it's because ponies tend to have much sturdier back conformation, and hopefully sporthorse breeders take that into account. 

And also the flaws with the 20% idea are that tack needs to be taken into account, and that it allows obese horses to carry more weight when in fact the opposite should be true. 

I have to say horses aren't really designed to be ridden  So it's worth doing everything possible to reduce strain on the back.


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## cobgoblin (29 October 2016)

Kaimar said:



			That's how people get eaten, you know...html[/url]
		
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Is that how you get the thin person that's hidden inside every fat person?
* runs away*


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## YorksG (29 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			Is there any doubt?  I'm lucky enough to nearly be it. Long thigh bones, small bust,  hips wider than a man's but not as wide as most women, wide shoulder.  I miss on my trunk, which is long and sets my centre of gravity a little too high, my thighs - too fleshy on the inside - and my neck, which is so long my head whips about on the top of it!
		
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As someone with similar conformation, I agree  My height is in my legs, with longer thigh bones than shin bones, I am short backed (BP's can be a problem), with fairly narrow hips and widish shoulders. This is not something which any of us can claim credit for, genetics having a great deal of influence on build, but I wonder what others think about this?


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## FfionWinnie (29 October 2016)

Perhaps those with "near perfect conformation" could post a video of themselves riding so we can properly assess if good rider conformation leads to good riding ability. As someone of terrible rider conformation by these standards (make a good page 3 girl tho) I look forward to seeing you on your horses.


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## YorksG (29 October 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			Perhaps those with "near perfect conformation" could post a video of themselves riding so we can properly assess if good rider conformation leads to good riding ability. As someone of terrible rider conformation by these standards (make a good page 3 girl tho) I look forward to seeing you on your horses.
		
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Perhaps a better method, would be to look at pictures of those who are undoubtably at the top of their game and look at their conformation?


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## ycbm (29 October 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			Perhaps those with "near perfect conformation" could post a video of themselves riding so we can properly assess if good rider conformation leads to good riding ability. As someone of terrible rider conformation by these standards (make a good page 3 girl tho) I look forward to seeing you on your horses.
		
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I didn't say I was a good rider, I said I had good rider conformation. I'm not up for putting my riding up for critique, I don't see the relevance. I suggest you take a look at some high level dressage and count the proportion of stubby riders to elongated riders winning rosettes.

Is there any doubt that it's easier to wrap your legs around a horse if they are long and thin?


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## FfionWinnie (29 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			I didn't say I was a good rider, I said I had good rider conformation. I'm not up for putting my riding up for critique, I don't see the relevance. I suggest you take a look at some high level dressage and count the proportion of stubby riders to elongated riders winning rosettes.

Is there any doubt that it's easier to wrap your legs around a horse if they are long and thin?
		
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I've no idea. My legs have always been long and thin while I have been a rider so I couldn't possibly say.


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## Mike007 (29 October 2016)

The 20% rule is useful but of far more importance is the 1.5 lbs per square inch rule. If a saddle exerts more than this pressure on any area of the back,it restricts/stops the blood flow to that area . There are plenty of riders well under the 20% guide who exceed the 1.5 lbs rule.


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## Cortez (29 October 2016)

YorksG said:



			As someone with similar conformation, I agree  My height is in my legs, with longer thigh bones than shin bones, I am short backed (BP's can be a problem), with fairly narrow hips and widish shoulders. This is not something which any of us can claim credit for, genetics having a great deal of influence on build, but I wonder what others think about this?
		
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Good rider conformation plays a much larger part in riding ability than many wish to acknowledge, it's just pure mechanics. I am tall, with long thighs, short back and a strong centre, all of which makes riding easier.


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## Pigeon (29 October 2016)

Cortez said:



			Good rider conformation plays a much larger part in riding ability than many wish to acknowledge, it's just pure mechanics. I am tall, with long thighs, short back and a strong centre, all of which makes riding easier.
		
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I think so too!

My stubby T-rex arms are the bane of my life!!!


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## Cortez (29 October 2016)

Pigeon said:



			I think so too!

My stubby T-rex arms are the bane of my life!!!
		
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Just to be sickening...I have long arms too! 

BUT all of that doesn't necessarily mean you'll be winning the Olympics; Charlotte DJD doesn't have a perfect physique for riding, and she's doing pretty well....


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## Pigeon (29 October 2016)

Cortez said:



			Just to be sickening...I have long arms too! 

BUT all of that doesn't necessarily mean you'll be winning the Olympics; Charlotte DJD doesn't have a perfect physique for riding, and she's doing pretty well....
		
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I hate you  

CDJ gives me hope that you can in fact ride with the line from bit to elbow broken upwards. If I kept that line at all times my hands would be on the pommel!


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## KittenInTheTree (29 October 2016)

cobgoblin said:



			Is that how you get the thin person that's hidden inside every fat person?
* runs away*
		
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Thin people are crunchy...


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## Mongoose11 (29 October 2016)

Kaimar said:



			Thin people are crunchy...
		
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To me, they often taste bitter. &#128514;


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## Mongoose11 (29 October 2016)

Pigeon said:



			I think so too!

My stubby T-rex arms are the bane of my life!!!
		
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I wonder how much should be deducted for T-Rex arms?


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## neddy man (29 October 2016)

ROMANY 1959 said:



			I read today that ROR are applying 17% rider and tack rule to all their events now... 
I was stewarding at BE a while back and I saw one lady, on a 15h horse who was not big boned, she did look way over weight for the horse... she was spilling out over her saddle and horse was sweated up, maybe they all should apply a sensible rule from next season, that gives riders all winter to shed weight and feel better all round.
I stopped riding 3 years ago when medicine for my health problems made me gain weight .
So I now get my horsey fix other ways
		
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Well done to you!


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## EllenJay (29 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			I think you look lovely. He's got a long enough back to carry a saddle that you aren't overflowing, you sit very nicely and he looks well strong enough to carry you. Have you any idea what percentage you are?

Ref the losing weight, I'm sure it will help you with wrapping your leg around him, rebalance your centre of gravity, and make riding really well a little easier, but I wouldn't say that he 'needs' you to lose weight at all.
		
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Surely a long back means they are not such a weight carrier - look at sausage dogs.  Personally, I think the picture shows a nice combination.


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## ycbm (29 October 2016)

EllenJay said:



			Surely a long back means they are not such a weight carrier - look at sausage dogs. .
		
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Of course. I didn't say he had a long back. I said he had a long enough back to carry a saddle that the rider doesn't spill out of. On these threads we quite often get pictures of ponies carrying weighty riders. And while they might be able to carry the weight, sometimes it's obvious that they can't carry a saddle that the rider actually fits into.


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## Equi (29 October 2016)

Not sure what's possessed me, as a fatty I tend to shy away from any weight related thread, but to hell with it. Have at it.


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## Mongoose11 (29 October 2016)

equi said:



			Not sure what's possessed me, as a fatty I tend to shy away from any weight related thread, but to hell with it. Have at it. 






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This is a pleasing partnership as far as I'm concerned, but people just assume I'm a fatty sympathiser so you might want to wait for an experienced AND thin AND non prejudiced rider to come along to share their opinion before you go feeling confident in tacking up tomorrow.


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## Goldenstar (29 October 2016)

When I was training we were taught the ideal was the riders shoulder to hip , hip to knee and knee to ankle lengths would equal in the perfect conformed rider .
This is optimal for balance .
While my legs are well proportioned ( but sadly shorter than I would like )my back is longer than ideal so I had to work at staying upright .
A rider will be helped if they are naturally supple and coordination is very important .the role of spatial awareness is undervalued but the ability to look somewhere and naturally use your body to get to that spot will always make it easier to learn to ride .
But the most important thing you need to ride well is feel and thats got nothing to with your shape .


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## Palindrome (29 October 2016)

Article about one of tge weight studies (also gives the origin of the 20% max weight which is US cavalry handbook from 1920):
http://www.equinews.com/article/horses-weight-carrying-ability-studied


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## YorksG (29 October 2016)

I think the hip to shoulder, hip to knee, knee to ankle all being the same is supposed to be the ideal conformation for people altogether, rather than just for riders


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## Equi (29 October 2016)

Mongoose11 said:



			This is a pleasing partnership as far as I'm concerned, but people just assume I'm a fatty sympathiser so you might want to wait for an experienced AND thin AND non prejudiced rider to come along to share their opinion before you go feeling confident in tacking up tomorrow.
		
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Hahah!


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## Equi (29 October 2016)

YorksG said:



			I think the hip to shoulder, hip to knee, knee to ankle all being the same is supposed to be the ideal conformation for people altogether, rather than just for riders 

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Very much so. I had photos taken in my first chiro session and I was leaning so far back he said my head weighed, to my body, 51lb. After three sessions in definitely walking a bit more forward I can feel my muscles being used differently. I've about two more sessions to go before I'm allowed to exercise TBH but I've been mucking out and riding just low level waking tho. My bad hip was also lower than my other one meaning my spine is sitting at a crooked angle all the time, which won't help horse knowing weights in saddle!


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## cobgoblin (29 October 2016)

Ok then I've just measured my hip/ knee/ankle ratio....and they are all equal....obviously I should have been a pro rider. If only someone had told me that years ago!


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## Wagtail (29 October 2016)

equi said:



			Not sure what's possessed me, as a fatty I tend to shy away from any weight related thread, but to hell with it. Have at it. 






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Your horse certainly has the bone and the size to carry you. I do think you have chosen a bad photograph however as it has caught your horse in a hollow outline which makes it look as though he is not carrying you effectively. If he was lifting his back more then the whole picture would be changed. It may be a schooling issue or just a moment in time when he is not working correctly. His back sinks down from his loins and his neck is tense at the withers. This gives the impression that your weight is pushing his back down when in fact it may just be that he is not carrying himself (and therefore you) effectively.


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## Wagtail (29 October 2016)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			I would be interested to see what you think about my horse and I as a combo. I am very aware of the fact that I am overweight, and have begun to make a conscious effort to loose some to benefit him. 

The first photo is a horrendous one of him, he wasn't happy at being asked to halt and hollowed through his back and put on a fake outline, but it shows my weight the best. The second photo was taken about 30 seconds afterwards and shows more accurately the way in which he works. 















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I don't think you look particularly overweight in these pictures. You are certainly not too heavy for your lovely horse.


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## Goldenstar (29 October 2016)

cobgoblin said:



			Ok then I've just measured my hip/ knee/ankle ratio....and they are all equal....obviously I should have been a pro rider. If only someone had told me that years ago!
		
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If only it where that simple .


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## Equi (29 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Your horse certainly has the bone and the size to carry you. I do think you have chosen a bad photograph however as it has caught your horse in a hollow outline which makes it look as though he is not carrying you effectively. If he was lifting his back more then the whole picture would be changed. It may be a schooling issue or just a moment in time when he is not working correctly. His back sinks down from his loins and his neck is tense at the withers. This gives the impression that your weight is pushing his back down when in fact it may just be that he is not carrying himself (and therefore you) effectively.
		
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Yes bad photo but one of the only I have side on. He's supposed to be halted &#128514; 

This is one of my most recent but it's just a blur.


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## Lovethebeach (29 October 2016)

Neither for or against but history, when lives depended on sound horses, did have several experiments, from the book Small Horses In Warfare  http://www.lrgaf.org/small-horses.htm
Ponies in India.

Captain L. E. Nolan, in Cavalry History and Tactics (1860), gives an account of an experimental march made by 200 of the 15th Hussars from Bangalore to Hyderabad and back, 800 miles. The objects of the march were to test the capabilities of the troop horses and to ascertain if there were anything to choose between stallions and geldings in respect of endurance. To arrive at a solution of the latter question, one hundred of the men were mounted on entires and the other hundred on horses which had been castrated only six months previously, regardless of age, for the purpose of making the experiment.

The squadrons marched to their destination, took part in field-days and pageants, and started to reach Bangalore by forced marches; they accomplished the last 180 miles at a rate of thirty miles per day, bringing in only one led horse, the remainder being perfectly sound and fit for further work. One horse, a 14.3 Persian, carried a corporal who, with his accoutrements, rode 22 stone 7 lbs. It may be added that there was nothing to choose between the performances of the stallions and geldings; though the fact that the latter had so recently been castrated was held to make their achievement the more creditable.

A forced march such as this has far more value as testimony to staying power than a more trying feat performed by a single animal; but mention must be made of Captain Horne's ride. This officer, who belonged to the Madras Horse Artillery, undertook in 1841 to ride his grey Arab, "Jumping Jimmy," 400 miles in five days on the Bangalore race-course; and accomplished his task with three hours and five minutes to spare, the horse doing the last 79 miles 5 furlongs in 19 hours 55 minutes, and being quite ready for his corn when pulled up. General Tweedie, in his work on The Arabian Horse (1894), quotes the above particulars from the Bengal Sporting Magazine, in whose pages full details are given.


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## Wagtail (29 October 2016)

equi said:



			Yes bad photo but one of the only I have side on. He's supposed to be halted &#55357;&#56834; 

This is one of my most recent but it's just a blur. 







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 that makes a huge difference. He looks like he is carrying you easily.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (29 October 2016)

equi said:



			Not sure what's possessed me, as a fatty I tend to shy away from any weight related thread, but to hell with it. Have at it. 






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From one humungus coloured owner to another, your boy is very handsome. Just my type


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## HufflyPuffly (29 October 2016)

Interesting thread what would you say to mine? 

I am a terrible rider shape  as I am super short through my legs, (though mainly calf length my thighs aren't that short), also chubby (or fat lol) with too long a back and short arms, really I have no idea how I actually stay on a horse :lol:  













Apologies for a Christmas shot the first I could find that was a decent picture . 






I think it's obvious which ones I'm closer to the limit with, but happy to see what others think .


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## Equi (29 October 2016)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			From one humungus coloured owner to another, your boy is very handsome. Just my type 

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He is rather special! Not one thing about him in paper would make me go and look at him, but I part loaned from a friend and fell in love and here we are a few quid lighter lolol


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## gothdolly (30 October 2016)

Everyone who has posted photos  on this thread looks great on their horses. I'm very very jealous of Cortez's riding ability though!! I have always thought the 20% rule was too high (unless just meandering round the bridleways for 20 mins) and aimed for 15% with mine. I'm currently 12 stone, 5ft 7 inches riding a 550kg 15.3 standardbred. Having weighed myself plus tack we fall comfortably within the 17% suggested by the ROR classes (yes, I know he's not a TB, but his build is similar to a chunky tb). I personally feel that's on the high side for him though and I am still dieting aiming for 11 stone, but that might be more about my paranoia than his actual weight carrying abilities, I dont know!


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## Wagtail (30 October 2016)

AlexHyde said:



			Interesting thread what would you say to mine? 

I am a terrible rider shape  as I am super short through my legs, (though mainly calf length my thighs aren't that short), also chubby (or fat lol) with too long a back and short arms, really I have no idea how I actually stay on a horse :lol:  













Apologies for a Christmas shot the first I could find that was a decent picture . 






I think it's obvious which ones I'm closer to the limit with, but happy to see what others think .
		
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I think you look perfect on the grey. He/she looks very light in front. You look a bit small on the dark brown, though you seem to be riding her very effectively. I think you look a bit on the heavy side for the small fine bay. Lovely horses.


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## ycbm (30 October 2016)

Lovethebeach said:



			Neither for or against but history, when lives depended on sound horses, did have several experiments, from the book Small Horses In Warfare  http://www.lrgaf.org/small-horses.htm
Ponies in India.

Captain L. E. Nolan, in Cavalry History and Tactics (1860), gives an account of an experimental march made by 200 of the 15th Hussars from Bangalore to Hyderabad and back, 800 miles. The objects of the march were to test the capabilities of the troop horses and to ascertain if there were anything to choose between stallions and geldings in respect of endurance. To arrive at a solution of the latter question, one hundred of the men were mounted on entires and the other hundred on horses which had been castrated only six months previously, regardless of age, for the purpose of making the experiment.

The squadrons marched to their destination, took part in field-days and pageants, and started to reach Bangalore by forced marches; they accomplished the last 180 miles at a rate of thirty miles per day, bringing in only one led horse, the remainder being perfectly sound and fit for further work. One horse, a 14.3 Persian, carried a corporal who, with his accoutrements, rode 22 stone 7 lbs. It may be added that there was nothing to choose between the performances of the stallions and geldings; though the fact that the latter had so recently been castrated was held to make their achievement the more creditable.

A forced march such as this has far more value as testimony to staying power than a more trying feat performed by a single animal; but mention must be made of Captain Horne's ride. This officer, who belonged to the Madras Horse Artillery, undertook in 1841 to ride his grey Arab, "Jumping Jimmy," 400 miles in five days on the Bangalore race-course; and accomplished his task with three hours and five minutes to spare, the horse doing the last 79 miles 5 furlongs in 19 hours 55 minutes, and being quite ready for his corn when pulled up. General Tweedie, in his work on The Arabian Horse (1894), quotes the above particulars from the Bengal Sporting Magazine, in whose pages full details are given.
		
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How long did they live?

Forty years ago a horse of eleven was worth a lot less money than one of nine.


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## ycbm (30 October 2016)

equi said:



			Yes bad photo but one of the only I have side on. He's supposed to be halted &#128514; 

This is one of my most recent but it's just a blur. 







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Equi I'm really sorry, but I think, after considering it for quite a while, that it's better to be honest. I would be really concerned about the backwards bend in your horse's leading foreleg.  For me, that would reduce his % weight carrying capacity down to the 12 - 15 % mark.


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## Palindrome (30 October 2016)

I think the point the recent studies make is that 20% is the weight at which the horses start physically struggling to carry the weight, as in muscle soreness, shortened stride, etc...
But I agree with a previous poster that the saddle is equally important as can cause pressure points below thaf 20% (for example I have had the problem with a treeless saddle causing white hair under stirrup bar when I am much less than 20%).


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## Leo Walker (30 October 2016)

25% is the point where they show signs of physically struggling, not 20%


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## Nudibranch (30 October 2016)

By following the 20% rule, my mw would be "capable" of carrying 22 stone, and even more up to the 25% point.

Anyone can see that's clearly not sensible.


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## Equi (30 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			Equi I'm really sorry, but I think, after considering it for quite a while, that it's better to be honest. I would be really concerned about the backwards bend in your horse's leading foreleg.  For me, that would reduce his % weight carrying capacity down to the 12 - 15 % mark.
		
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One thing to bear in mind is that this is a screenshot of a video, hence the blurryness lol you may also notice one of his feet appear to be missing!

Probably not comparable due to no rider but it's not quite so blurry!







However I do know that less weight is always better - I'm going to work hard on it I plan to go back to sw tomorrow!


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## Palindrome (30 October 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			25% is the point where they show signs of physically struggling, not 20%
		
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Yes, so it starts somewhere between 20 (no problem) and 25% (problems). Worth to note that those are lightweight riding horse but there is a similar 20% rule for pack mules.


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## Wagtail (30 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			So can we start our own formula?  Here's my first go.

Absolute maximum for any horse of any type - 20%

Young, old, not in regular conditioning work of a serious nature - deduct 20%

Horse is overweight - deduct the amount of weight that the horse is carrying in his own fat.

Rider is unbalanced/novice/poor muscle tone - deduct 20%

Horse is average width across the loins  and fairly good conformation - minus 20%

Horse is narrow across the loins/long in the back/long legged especially in the cannon bones/small tight joints -  minus 30%

Maximum deduction for multiple issues 50%


So a horse like Frankiecobs, in regular work of the right kind, with a competent rider, can carry 20%, but the same weight lightweight ex flat racer with a wobbly rider would only carry 10%.
		
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Thanks for this, ycbm. I think something along these lines would be ideal. 

In the meantime perhaps we should be advising people that 15% is a safer figure to aim for until we know all of the contributing factors rather than telling people who ask that they are okay as long as they don't weigh more than 20% of their horse's weight. It MAY be the case that with a very balanced, experienced rider, with a horse of great conformation that is fit and well muscled, that 20% of the horse's ideal weight would be fine, but I think that just advising people regardless (which seems to happen on every weight query thread) is not good advice.


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## Mongoose11 (30 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Thanks for this, ycbm. I think something along these lines would be ideal. 

In the meantime perhaps we should be advising people that 15% is a safer figure to aim for until we know all of the contributing factors rather than telling people who ask that they are okay as long as they don't weigh more than 20% of their horse's weight. It MAY be the case that with a very balanced, experienced rider, with a horse of great conformation that is fit and well muscled, that 20% of the horse's ideal weight would be fine, but I think that just advising people regardless (which seems to happen on every weight query thread) is not good advice.
		
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This would leave my 15.1 heavy weight cob with 10 inches of bone only being able to carry 11 stone. I think the most sensible approach would be to accept that arbitrary rules about weight carrying ability should not apply and common sense, experience, horse welfare and a non prejudiced view should prevail.


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## scats (30 October 2016)

I feel very strongly about weight limits and riders.  I'm not in any way bashing overweight people, but I believe we have a duty of care to our horses to be in the best possible physical shape in order for them to be able to carry us with minimal strain.  Basically our job is to make their job as easy as possible.  Anyone can put on a few pounds here and there, I am exactly the same, in fact last year I realised my weight had crept up half a stone, due to some medication I was taking, and I set out to do something about it fast. 

What concerns me is the number of morbidly overweight people I see riding horses of completely the wrong build/type and size for them.  If you are a larger rider and you cannot lose the weight or have some reason why you maintain that weight, then please choose an appropriate size mount with the right amount of bone.

I've looked at all the pictures on this thread and in my opinion, nobody looks too heavy for their horses on the ones I have seen, so my comments are not aimed at anyone on here.  I do, however, witness on a daily basis a very overweight rider on a fine boned 16hh horse with pretty dreadful conformation. It is a horrid picture and in my opinion, the horse has shown notable signs of struggling.   Rider must be 15 stone easily and jumps the horse 5-6 times a week.  I wouldn't want to say anything for fear of upsetting the rider but I really struggle witnessing this.


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## huskydamage (30 October 2016)

I had never heard of 20% rule before I came on this forum. Not sure how to do it off my phone but I can gurantee if I put a pic up most people would think I was evil and crushing my pony to death lol Yet Ive had her 15years jumped,hunted etc and at nearly 24 she can still gallop around with me no problem. She has a touch of hock arthritus and that's about it. Never sick or sorry. Just did a 3day challenge ride with her and she was galloping up the front with hirlings twice her size. Always get comments from people like 'that one could go round again! Never stops!' I look aesthetically way too big on her but she clearly has no issues carrying me! She is 14hh,skinny type and I 'm 5'7 weigh 65kg. If someone can tell me please how to work out 20% from that will do with my terrible maths


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## fornema (30 October 2016)

Mongoose11 said:



			This would leave my 15.1 heavy weight cob with 10 inches of bone only being able to carry 11 stone. I think the most sensible approach would be to accept that arbitrary rules about weight carrying ability should not apply and common sense, experience, horse welfare and a non prejudiced view should prevail.
		
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This 100% - the rule is totally arbitrary similar to BMI and doesn't consider anything about the horse!

I have two horses at completely different ends of the spectrum

Horse 1 is 13.2 and was last weigh bridged in July at 367kg and with tack I am about 17% of her weight - she is a native type but is built like a little sport horse, she has never had a day lame in the past 10 years and jumps and wins round 1m tracks with ease and chiro has never seen a pony her size with such a good back. She trains at medium level DR at home, if i put a picture up of us training with dressage length stirrups you would probably say I'm a little tall.

Horse 2 is 17.2 and approximately just under 700kg - this means that i am about 8% incl tack, there is absolutely no way I would let someone who weighed in at the 17% - almost 22 stone get on her!

You have to use COMMON SENSE!


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## Mongoose11 (30 October 2016)

huskydamage said:



			I had never heard of 20% rule before I came on this forum. Not sure how to do it off my phone but I can gurantee if I put a pic up most people would think I was evil and crushing my pony to death lol Yet Ive had her 15years jumped,hunted etc and at nearly 24 she can still gallop around with me no problem. She has a touch of hock arthritus and that's about it. Never sick or sorry. Just did a 3day challenge ride with her and she was galloping up the front with hirlings twice her size. Always get comments from people like 'that one could go round again! Never stops!' I look aesthetically way too big on her but she clearly has no issues carrying me! She is 14hh,skinny type and I 'm 5'7 weigh 65kg. If someone can tell me please how to work out 20% from that will do with my terrible maths
		
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You'd need to know what she weighs to work it out.


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## Mongoose11 (30 October 2016)

Thought better of it and deleted.


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## honetpot (30 October 2016)

Nudibranch said:



			By following the 20% rule, my mw would be "capable" of carrying 22 stone, and even more up to the 25% point.

Anyone can see that's clearly not sensible.
		
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  You may not think so but perhaps the science would say yes they are, if they are looking at muscle enzymes that are increased when there is muscle damage and there is no increase that seems to be a good objective test.

 'This study was designed to test the weight-carrying ability of light-breed horses performing 45 minutes of light to moderate exercise, simulating a riding lesson for a student at an intermediate skill level. In this study, weight loads of 25 and 30% of the horse's body weight were shown to influence work rate, heart rate, and lactate concentrations. No differences were found in heart rate, plasma lactate concentration, respiration rate, rectal temperature, and work rate for horses carrying weights of 15 and 20% of body weight. Serum creatine kinase activity, commonly used as a measure of muscle damage in exercising horses, was not changed when the horses carried 15 and 20% of their body weight. Post-exercise creatine kinase activity was greater in horses carrying 30% of body weight, and levels remained elevated 24 and 48 hours after exercise.'
http://saracen.equinews.com//article/horses-weight-carrying-ability-studied
 There is a another study on the 20% rule on TB's which also shows this but in a different way but its got lost in google and I can not find it. You have to say that the horses condition score would have to be taken into account and for these studies these horses would not be classed as over weight.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23302086  Not the study I was looking for but another way to measure the effects of weight.


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## Wagtail (30 October 2016)

huskydamage said:



			I had never heard of 20% rule before I came on this forum. Not sure how to do it off my phone but I can gurantee if I put a pic up most people would think I was evil and crushing my pony to death lol Yet Ive had her 15years jumped,hunted etc and at nearly 24 she can still gallop around with me no problem. She has a touch of hock arthritus and that's about it. Never sick or sorry. Just did a 3day challenge ride with her and she was galloping up the front with hirlings twice her size. Always get comments from people like 'that one could go round again! Never stops!' I look aesthetically way too big on her but she clearly has no issues carrying me! She is 14hh,skinny type and I 'm 5'7 weigh 65kg. If someone can tell me please how to work out 20% from that will do with my terrible maths
		
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I would guess your pony is around 400 kg. 20% of this would be 80kg. I personally think that in general, smaller horses can carry more as a percentage of their weight than larger horses. If you look at the animal kingdom, an ant can carry 20 times its own weight. Smaller is generally stronger, pound for pound. I think that you are probably well within your pony's weight carrying ability.


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## Mongoose11 (30 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			I would guess your pony is around 400 kg. 20% of this would be 80kg. I personally think that in general, smaller horses can carry more as a percentage of their weight than larger horses. If you look at the animal kingdom, an ant can carry 20 times its own weight. Smaller is generally stronger, pound for pound. I think that you are probably well within your pony's weight carrying ability.
		
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I think this is potentially dangerous advice. You have estimated the weight of this horse to be 400kg but your own horse, who is just over 15h, weighs 471. My horse, just over 15h, weighs 600kg and was described as a 'good' weight by the company rep. 

This horse could weigh 350kg and then that puts the rider in a different position.


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## Nudibranch (30 October 2016)

But studies based on single or few sessions do not take into account the cumulative effect of weight bearing, do they? There's no way on earth I'd let someone of 22 stone or anywhere near ride my big lad. I am 13 stone including tack and quite honestly that's enough. My vet is quite adamant that 15% is an absolute max, so I think a lot of people on here would be pretty hacked off with him.


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## Wagtail (30 October 2016)

I think this is a very good chart for estimating your horse's weight, huskydamage. http://www.horsewyse.com.au/weight.html


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## Mongoose11 (30 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			I think this is a very good chart for estimating your horse's weight, huskydamage. http://www.horsewyse.com.au/weight.html

Click to expand...

I'm glad you think that's useful, you may find a different answer on a different chart. The fact is, the poster you advised has described her pony as a 'skinny' type so she could be 350kg and this would leave her, with tack, at 20% or more. I'm making a very simple point that we need to deal with factual information rather than estimates, personal preferences or aesthetics.

You've also forgotten to deduct YCBM's percentage for the hock arthritis. Did you automatically assume that the rider would be fine because 65kg is a palatable weight for you?


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## Leo Walker (30 October 2016)

And photos are not a good way to judge. My horse looks considerably lighter in photos and almost a different type. I look a fair bit lighter than I actually weigh as well. I think its almost impossible to judge a persons weight from one snap of them sitting on a horse


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## Equi (30 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			I think this is a very good chart for estimating your horse's weight, huskydamage. http://www.horsewyse.com.au/weight.html

Click to expand...

The left chart and my weigh tape were both pretty much the same! I do add a bit on though as he has good bone.


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## Mongoose11 (30 October 2016)

equi said:



			The left chart and my weigh tape were both pretty much the same! I do add a bit on though as he has good bone.
		
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It's likely that your weight tape understates his weight anyway. Mine taped at 550 on the same day she weighed 600 on the scale.


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## Palindrome (30 October 2016)

My 16.1hh riding horse type weight tapes at 450-500. I assume she is about 500 (perhaps 550) kgs, good overall agreement with chart.


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## Leo Walker (30 October 2016)

ALL of these people are too heavy to ride these horses if we use 15%

About a stone and a half over:







About 2 stone over:







this one by nearly 3 stone:







And this one by 3 stone again, probably more, plus the horse is carrying a fair amount of excess weight:







And yes, I do know what all of these people actually weigh stood on scales, so I'm not guesstimating anything, other than how overweight the chestnut was, he lost a lot of weight and I cant remember what he was at this point


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## ycbm (30 October 2016)

Of they are all over 15% then I would have to say that if I owned them, none of them would carry that weight for anything but an hour's light hack. And, again if it was mine, I would tell the man on the chestnut to get off.


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## Palindrome (30 October 2016)

I think the point of Frankiecob is that it's hard to tell with a picture. I agree, plus the study shows no difference between 15 and 20%.


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## Leo Walker (30 October 2016)

I think the point of Frankiecob is that it's hard to tell with a picture. I agree, plus the study shows no difference between 15 and 20%.
		
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It impossible. 

I'm sure you would YCBM. But my vets, my physio, chiro, instructor etc, etc wouldnt and none of those horses has suffered any long term repercussions, so who is right? I know who my money is on.


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## KittenInTheTree (30 October 2016)

Well, me plus all riding gear and tack works out as just under 14% of my cob's total weight, and that's with heavy winter clothing. Cannon bone measurement calculation put my score in the low seventies, which is also fine. So I think we're okay regarding weight. He's only four though, so we're taking things very carefully to allow for that


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## catkin (30 October 2016)

Cortez said:



			Good rider conformation plays a much larger part in riding ability than many wish to acknowledge, it's just pure mechanics. I am tall, with long thighs, short back and a strong centre, all of which makes riding easier.
		
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Out of interest, is this for all kinds of riding? would different saddles help overcome conformation 'defects' in the rider (like iberian saddles, western, stock etc etc?) I don't know - just wondered (ps I'm sort of the right conformation for riding except for overlong back but find modern dressage saddles the most uncomfortable things on earth, though that maybe due to muscle-memory from a childhood of dodgy ponies with equally dodgy showing saddles  )


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## windseywoo (30 October 2016)

My interest in this thread is that as horse owners, all of us seem pretty aware of what is fair for our horses to carry and what isn't. I worry about the poor horses that you see on programmes like You've been framed, were morbidly obese people think its funny to get on a horse and it carry them around with no balance and then they can't get off and fall off like some elephant seal. You can see the poor horse's look of horror when these people try to get on and yet the owners of these animals let them get on. They should be made to get on some scales and then stopped from getting on the horse whether they have paid or not. These horses I don't feel have the best of lives and are probably burnt out by 14.


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## Cortez (30 October 2016)

catkin said:



			Out of interest, is this for all kinds of riding? would different saddles help overcome conformation 'defects' in the rider (like iberian saddles, western, stock etc etc?) I don't know - just wondered (ps I'm sort of the right conformation for riding except for overlong back but find modern dressage saddles the most uncomfortable things on earth, though that maybe due to muscle-memory from a childhood of dodgy ponies with equally dodgy showing saddles  )
		
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Nope, the style of saddle doesn't compensate for the rider's shape, although some are harder to fall out of than others  If you haven't ridden a lot of dressage it may be that the different position the saddle puts you in is making you use different muscles, that are protesting. The same thing tends to happen when people who have always ridden with short leathers are asked to lengthen them. No pain, no gain....


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## cobgoblin (30 October 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			ALL of these people are too heavy to ride these horses if we use 15%

About a stone and a half over:







About 2 stone over:







this one by nearly 3 stone:







And this one by 3 stone again, probably more, plus the horse is carrying a fair amount of excess weight:







And yes, I do know what all of these people actually weigh stood on scales, so I'm not guesstimating anything, other than how overweight the chestnut was, he lost a lot of weight and I cant remember what he was at this point
		
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The last two definitely look too heavy for their horses.
The first pic looks as though the rider has outgrown their pony.
Second pic is not clear enough to tell anything.


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## FfionWinnie (30 October 2016)

My horse is 106kgs more on the scales than that chart puts her at.  She is in perfect fit condition.


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## catkin (30 October 2016)

Cortez said:



			Nope, the style of saddle doesn't compensate for the rider's shape, although some are harder to fall out of than others  If you haven't ridden a lot of dressage it may be that the different position the saddle puts you in is making you use different muscles, that are protesting. The same thing tends to happen when people who have always ridden with short leathers are asked to lengthen them. No pain, no gain....
		
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Thanks, I did wonder.

Funnily enough I've done quite a lot of riding in older style flat-seated dressage saddles and with legs long (hour upon hour on the lunge) and, shock horror, been moorland hunting in an especially comfortable old dressage saddle. 

Which are the saddle styles that are hard to fall out of? Baby pony might quite like one of those as he gets more adventurous with his hacking  !


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## Pigeon (30 October 2016)

Nudibranch said:



			But studies based on single or few sessions do not take into account the cumulative effect of weight bearing, do they?
		
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Exactly, it's a different thing entirely when it's happening every day for a year, compared to one go round the arena for an hour.


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## Cortez (30 October 2016)

Sometimes not falling off is not the best thing! Traditional Portuguese saddles are best, and very comfortable for the horse as they have a large bearing surface. They can be heavy though...bearing in mind the subject of this post.


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## Elf On A Shelf (30 October 2016)

It is not just rider weight that needs to be taken into consideration. It is the horses conformation too. 

In theory a Clydesdale would be able to carry a phenomenal amount of weight but in reality their power is in the front end for pulling. They have very weak back ends and hocks which is not great in a riding horse.

A Shetland on the other hand will be able to carry more weight for its height due to its compact build.


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## Wagtail (30 October 2016)

I think smaller horses in general have a better weight carrying capacity in relation to their size. But Shetlands particularly so.


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## HufflyPuffly (30 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			I think you look perfect on the grey. He/she looks very light in front. You look a bit small on the dark brown, though you seem to be riding her very effectively. I think you look a bit on the heavy side for the small fine bay. Lovely horses.
		
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Pretty much what I'd say, I'm generally around the 9.5 stone mark, grey is about 15.3hh, black is 15.2/3hh and bay 14.3hh. 

Still feel a touch big on the grey but as she's only four she will probably end up making me look smaller than I do on the black! 

Topaz makes me feel tiny sometimes, and is probably a touch wasted with me and mum weight wise as she is a good weight carrier for her height.

Doodle I'm very careful with and need to get my weight down a bit more for her really, but as she's semi retired these days she's going ok with the work load.


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## Mongoose11 (30 October 2016)

AlexHyde said:



			Pretty much what I'd say, I'm generally around the 9.5 stone mark, grey is about 15.3hh, black is 15.2/3hh and bay 14.3hh. 

Still feel a touch big on the grey but as she's only four she will probably end up making me look smaller than I do on the black! 

Topaz makes me feel tiny sometimes, and is probably a touch wasted with me and mum weight wise as she is a good weight carrier for her height.

Doodle I'm very careful with and need to get my weight down a bit more for her really, but as she's semi retired these days she's going ok with the work load.
		
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But earlier we had a slightly heavier rider (by half a stone) on a smaller horse (by almost a hand) told that they were absolutely fine on their horse despite the horse being 24 and arthritic. Go figure!

That poster hadn't provided a picture though &#128514;


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## sasquatch (30 October 2016)

I am 5"4, haven't weighed myself recently as it's a bit too scary but probably am around 11 stone at most. 
B is a 15hh LW cob type, who when these photos were taken was in work 5/6 days a week. I'm well aware he is most likely hollow, he has massive shoulders and we are working on getting him engaged through his back more instead of being on his forehand as it is easier for him. He doesn't work to an outline and drop and tuck his nose in, however he is starting to feel more like he is lifting and pushing through his back, and looking more round through his back and hind end which is what I would rather encourage instead of a false outline. I'm not sure on his weight. 

Conformation wise, he isn't too bad and his back is a bit long and he has tiny ears. As for rider conformation, I will be surprised if it's any good as I have scoliosis and one leg shorter than the other 
We also both have the same problem of looking much taller/shorter than we actually are.


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## ycbm (30 October 2016)

It's no good any of us talking about single horses or multiple horses in short term studies.One horse was still in work at twenty five? Who knows, with a lighter rider it might still have been in work at thirty. A hundred horses carried 20%  without any problem for two hours? Fine, show me x rays of their joints compared to 100 that didn't, after a ten year trial. 

 The only way we can answer this question is long term studies in large numbers of horses. Until we get that I will err on the side of gut feel and caution. That for me is 15% on a decently made horse for everything except a walk around the block. If other people have a different limit, fine, but that's mine.


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## ycbm (30 October 2016)

Sasquatch I think you need to knock off at least 20% for the tiny ears


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## Wagtail (30 October 2016)

sasquatch said:



			I am 5"4, haven't weighed myself recently as it's a bit too scary but probably am around 11 stone at most. 
B is a 15hh LW cob type, who when these photos were taken was in work 5/6 days a week. I'm well aware he is most likely hollow, he has massive shoulders and we are working on getting him engaged through his back more instead of being on his forehand as it is easier for him. He doesn't work to an outline and drop and tuck his nose in, however he is starting to feel more like he is lifting and pushing through his back, and looking more round through his back and hind end which is what I would rather encourage instead of a false outline. I'm not sure on his weight. 

Conformation wise, he isn't too bad and his back is a bit long and he has tiny ears. As for rider conformation, I will be surprised if it's any good as I have scoliosis and one leg shorter than the other 
We also both have the same problem of looking much taller/shorter than we actually are. 












Click to expand...

You say you are 5'4? No way do you look even close to 11 stone. Not to me in any case. You also look great on your horse.


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## huskydamage (30 October 2016)

Mongoose11 said:



			But earlier we had a slightly heavier rider (by half a stone) on a smaller horse (by almost a hand) told that they were absolutely fine on their horse despite the horse being 24 and arthritic. Go figure!

That poster hadn't provided a picture though &#128514;
		
Click to expand...

Dont know how to do a picture off my phone, done them before but it involved some faffy bbcode. There must be a simpler way?. I actually weigh 63kgish but am putting 65 for clothes and stuff. Is that enough? How much for the saddle ? I have a weigh tape so will attempt to work this out properly at some point,be interesting to know my percent!


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## Mongoose11 (30 October 2016)

huskydamage said:



			Dont know how to do a picture off my phone, done them before but it involved some faffy bbcode. There must be a simpler way?. I actually weigh 63kgish but am putting 65 for clothes and stuff. Is that enough? How much for the saddle ? I have a weigh tape so will attempt to work this out properly at some point,be interesting to know my percent!
		
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Lighter saddles weigh around 8kg and your clothes/boots will be more than 2kg. I know that 'posters' have previously preferred to add 1.5 stone for tack/clothes as a minimum. 

My point was that you were told you were fine to go ahead and crack on but a rider who was lighter, with a bigger horse was not - figure that one out?! It was merely because in the photo it 'appeared' that the rider 'may' have been too heavy. At 9.5 stone on a 14.3 animal - they most likely aren't &#128514;

Anyhoo, your horse could be 340kg or it could be 430kg so you'd need to know that bit first. 

That chart won't work for everyone. Doesn't work for mine or FfionWinnie's super fit sports cob - it's out by 100kg.


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## Wagtail (30 October 2016)

huskydamage said:



			Dont know how to do a picture off my phone, done them before but it involved some faffy bbcode. There must be a simpler way?. I actually weigh 63kgish but am putting 65 for clothes and stuff. Is that enough? How much for the saddle ? I have a weigh tape so will attempt to work this out properly at some point,be interesting to know my percent!
		
Click to expand...

I weighed myself once without clothes and then got dressed and weighed myself dressed ready to ride (winter) including hat and held a saddle. It added just over two stone to my weight. I had riding boots, body protector and hat. Two stone is around 12 kg. If your horse is fit and muscled, with good conformation, then I would expect you personally would be well within 20%.  I do believe that some horses, and especially ponies, are capable of comfortably carrying 20% of their weight. But that would be if they are an ideal weight for their height, fit, at peak age, have good conformation, tack fits very well and their rider is well balanced. IMO in the absence of this information, then I would rather err on the side of caution than just tell anyone who asks what weight their horse can take that it is 20% of the horse's weight.


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## Leo Walker (30 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			If your horse is fit and muscled, with good conformation, then I would expect you would be well within 20%.
		
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which you think is too much?!


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## Goldenstar (30 October 2016)

Folks this thread makes my head ache .


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## Wagtail (30 October 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			which you think is too much?!
		
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Read my whole post which was edited at the time you posted.


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## Mongoose11 (30 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			I weighed myself once without clothes and then got dressed and weighed myself dressed ready to ride (winter) including hat and held a saddle. It added just over two stone to my weight. I had riding boots, body protector and hat. Two stone is around 12 kg. If your horse is fit and muscled, with good conformation, then I would expect you personally would be well within 20%.  I do believe that some horses, and especially ponies, are capable of comfortably carrying 20% of their weight. But that would be if they are an ideal weight for their height, fit, at peak age, have good conformation, tack fits very well and their rider is well balanced. IMO in the absence of this information, then I would rather err on the side of caution than just tell anyone who asks what weight their horse can take that it is 20% of the horse's weight.
		
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You've already estimated that the 14h 'skinny type', arthritic 24 year old weighs 400kg. At 400kg, a rider of 63kg tack plus rider gear of around 12kg, you are endorsing a rider who is 19% of this horses weight, riding it regularly and in hard work. You said earlier it was fine. This is despite knowing that the horse isn't in perfect condition and doing fast work. Now you're suggesting these weights are only ok when all else is in perfect condition/balance...or if it's a pony? 

So which is it? Is 20% or close to it only for light work/walking round the block? Or does it really depend on how you look because you thought the other lovely poster who was only 7lbs lighter on a bigger horse was too heavy for it once you'd seen her.

I'm sure you'll just continue to ignore me - which is fine but come on &#128514;


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## huskydamage (30 October 2016)

https://youtu.be/3pNAP29A0-U

Here's a link of me riding my pony it's old, but there are recent photos of me online but they are on a photographers website and have other people in. Not sure if forums rules etc it's ok to post the link to those? 
How accurate is the weigh tape? I remember using it once and thinking the weight it gave seemed a bit odd.
Definetly going to try to work this out though.
Was genuinely interested in this thread as it's something ive not of heard of, but does it have to get so ranty?! Lol


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## Mongoose11 (30 October 2016)

huskydamage said:



https://youtu.be/3pNAP29A0-U

Here's a link of me riding my pony it's old, but there are recent photos of me online but they are on a photographers website and have other people in. Not sure if forums rules etc it's ok to post the link to those? 
How accurate is the weigh tape? I remember using it once and thinking the weight it gave seemed a bit odd.
Definetly going to try to work this out though.
Was genuinely interested in this thread as it's something ive not of heard of, but does it have to get so ranty?! Lol
		
Click to expand...

What a whizzy thing she is!


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## Equi (30 October 2016)

Has anyone weightaped themselves? Lol


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## Mongoose11 (30 October 2016)

sasquatch said:



			I am 5"4, haven't weighed myself recently as it's a bit too scary but probably am around 11 stone at most. 
B is a 15hh LW cob type, who when these photos were taken was in work 5/6 days a week. I'm well aware he is most likely hollow, he has massive shoulders and we are working on getting him engaged through his back more instead of being on his forehand as it is easier for him. He doesn't work to an outline and drop and tuck his nose in, however he is starting to feel more like he is lifting and pushing through his back, and looking more round through his back and hind end which is what I would rather encourage instead of a false outline. I'm not sure on his weight. 

Conformation wise, he isn't too bad and his back is a bit long and he has tiny ears. As for rider conformation, I will be surprised if it's any good as I have scoliosis and one leg shorter than the other 
We also both have the same problem of looking much taller/shorter than we actually are. 












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Lovely boy! He's very handsome!


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## ycbm (30 October 2016)

"



huskydamage said:



https://youtu.be/3pNAP29A0-U

Here's a link of me riding my pony it's old, but there are recent photos of me online but they are on a photographers website and have other people in. Not sure if forums rules etc it's ok to post the link to those? 
How accurate is the weigh tape? I remember using it once and thinking the weight it gave seemed a bit odd.
Definetly going to try to work this out though.
Was genuinely interested in this thread as it's something ive not of heard of, but does it have to get so ranty?! Lol
		
Click to expand...

I don't know about how much you or the pony weigh, but (for me) s/he doesn't fit you, you are simply too big for him/her I can't get the resolution good enough, but does your bottom actually fit in that saddle?  Does s/he zoom away from the leg as much if you ride with stirrups of a more normal length?

Weigh tapes are only of any use to check increases and decreases in weight, and sometimes not even then (ofy a horse is so thin it has dips on the side of its spine it will put on a lot of weight before it records on the tape). They are very, very inaccurate.


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## Snowy Celandine (30 October 2016)

If I believed everything I read on here I doubt that I'd allow myself or anyone else ever to get on a horse again!!! Maybe we should all be no more than 7st dripping wet and even then only ever ride 17.3 WBs?


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## ycbm (30 October 2016)

Snowy Celandine said:



			If I believed everything I read on here I doubt that I'd allow myself or anyone else ever to get on a horse again!!! Maybe we should all be no more than 7st dripping wet and even then only ever ride 17.3 WBs?
		
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I'm puzzled. What have you read on this thread that would lead you to that conclusion?


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## Snowy Celandine (30 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			I'm puzzled. What have you read on this thread that would lead you to that conclusion?
		
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No comment


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## Mongoose11 (30 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			I'm puzzled. What have you read on this thread that would lead you to that conclusion?
		
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Perhaps it was the idea that someone who weighs 9.5 stone looks too heavy for their 14.3 &#128514;?


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## Leo Walker (30 October 2016)

Snowy Celandine said:



			If I believed everything I read on here I doubt that I'd allow myself or anyone else ever to get on a horse again!!! Maybe we should all be no more than 7st dripping wet and even then only ever ride 17.3 WBs?
		
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And only if you have good conformation as well Snowy


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## Wagtail (30 October 2016)

huskydamage said:



https://youtu.be/3pNAP29A0-U

Here's a link of me riding my pony it's old, but there are recent photos of me online but they are on a photographers website and have other people in. Not sure if forums rules etc it's ok to post the link to those? 
How accurate is the weigh tape? I remember using it once and thinking the weight it gave seemed a bit odd.
Definetly going to try to work this out though.
Was genuinely interested in this thread as it's something ive not of heard of, but does it have to get so ranty?! Lol
		
Click to expand...

Now that you have posted that footage, I do think she looks too small for you. But whether you are too heavy for her is impossible to tell without seeing her conformation and knowing her weight and condition. Does she still whiz about like that with her head in the air? It looks like she is running away a bit. I would want to try and understand why that was. Some horses are fizzy to ride but there is usually a reason.


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## ycbm (30 October 2016)

Mongoose11 said:



			Perhaps it was the idea that someone who weighs 9.5 stone looks too heavy for their 14.3 &#55357;&#56834;?
		
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But this is the point you've been making all along, though it might help if you did it less like point scoring and more like an open and intelligent debate. To be frank, it reads like you are trying to poke Wagtail through the bars of her cage to get a reaction.  Your point is correct, you can't tell from a photo. But if a pony in a photo looks like it's struggling with the weight, in someone's opinion, then it looks to that person as if it's struggling with the weight, whether that weight is  5% or 50 %.


Equi gave me a great, adult, intelligent response to my suggestion that in one photo it looked as if her horse wasn't up to full weight carrying. Most of the thread has been the same. I simply don't see where you or Snowy Celandine are coming from.


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## Snowy Celandine (30 October 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			And only if you have good conformation as well Snowy 

Click to expand...

Yup so that's me ruled out with my wonky back  I'll get me coat, my non riding coat, obvs, ha ha.


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## Wagtail (30 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			I simply don't see where you or Snowy Celandine are coming from.
		
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Just making a laughing stock out of themselves as usual. No thought about intelligent debate. You won't find any logic there.


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## Mongoose11 (30 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Just making a laughing stock out of themselves as usual. No thought about intelligent debate. You won't find any logic there.
		
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But everything I've said adds up, I just happened to have pointed out the flaws and back tracking in your own ideas on this thread. Sorry.

I don't think I've said anything unreasonable. My main concern is that you keep changing your mind about the 'rules' and were quick to dismiss a rider as too heavy from a photo yet the stats say otherwise - which was my point at the beginning of the thread. I don't think I have been unclear on this.


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## Leo Walker (30 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Just making a laughing stock out of themselves as usual. No thought about intelligent debate. You won't find any logic there.
		
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Would you like to specify who that is aimed at and what you are basing in on please? Because that comes across as very rude and is hardly a a contribution to an intelligent debate


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## alainax (30 October 2016)

This is 2%, much more realistic


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## Snowy Celandine (30 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Just making a laughing stock out of themselves as usual. No thought about intelligent debate. You won't find any logic there.
		
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In the words of Miranda, "Rude"! 

What's the view like from your (very high) horse by the way?


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## Snowy Celandine (30 October 2016)

alainax said:



			This is 2%, much more realistic 






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Ha ha


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## Leo Walker (30 October 2016)

I'd say this was more suitable as Wagtail once told me that 10stone was his absolute max, but it looks like his fetlock is really bent in the pics, so he must be under too much strain


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## ycbm (30 October 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			Would you like to specify who that is aimed at and what you are basing in on please? Because that comes across as very rude and is hardly a a contribution to an intelligent debate
		
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I'm confused why you need it specified who it is aimed at? The comment you quote was made as a direct response to my own comment to Mongoose which also named Snowy Celandine. I don't understand where either poster is coming from. I thought the thread was useful and  informative.

 Presumably, Wagtail based her comment on posts by those two posters, but I'm sure she's a big enough girl to confirm that if she can raise the energy


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## Snowy Celandine (30 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			I'm confused why you need it specified who it is aimed at? The comment you quote was made as a direct response to my own comment to Mongoose which also named Snowy Celandine. I don't understand where either poster is coming from. I thought the thread was useful and  informative.

 Presumably, Wagtail based her comment on posts by those two posters, but I'm sure she's a big enough girl to confirm that if she can raise the energy 

Click to expand...

Let's hope her energy has run out then because I know mine has. Goodnight and enjoy your argument ladies


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## Wagtail (30 October 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			Would you like to specify who that is aimed at and what you are basing in on please? Because that comes across as very rude and is hardly a a contribution to an intelligent debate
		
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Yes, of course. It is aimed mainly at Mongoose. I don't know why she is so obsessed by everything I post.


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## ycbm (30 October 2016)

alainax said:



			This is 2%, much more realistic 











Click to expand...


Perfick!  What about me?  65% I think, but I do it bareback to keep the weight down 
.
.


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## rachk89 (30 October 2016)

I want in on this too as I sometimes do worry if i look too big for my horse? Normally I am sure that I am ok because he is 16.1hh and by no means slim with it. But sometimes I see pictures and think "are they just unflattering or am I too big?". Sometimes I think I even look too tall for him but I can't be I am only 5'8.

Forgot weights: horse is around 550kg. I haven't weighed myself in ages but I doubt I have gotten past the 13st marker yet sadly. 







Please excuse the fact I am on the wrong diagonal I hadn't noticed during the warm up that i had once again gotten the wrong one. I kept changing the rein to get him flexing more and sometimes forgot to change because i was too focused on getting him working properly after yesterday being a waste of time.


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## Wagtail (30 October 2016)

rachk89 said:



			I want in on this too as I sometimes do worry if i look too big for my horse? Normally I am sure that I am ok because he is 16.1hh and by no means slim with it. But sometimes I see pictures and think "are they just unflattering or am I too big?". Sometimes I think I even look too tall for him but I can't be I am only 5'8.







Please excuse the fact I am on the wrong diagonal I hadn't noticed during the warm up that i had once again gotten the wrong one. I kept changing the rein to get him flexing more and sometimes forgot to change because i was too focused on getting him working properly after yesterday being a waste of time.
		
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This is an example of where pictures can be deceiving. Your t shirt looks like it is ballooning out making you look larger on top than perhaps you are. I have been surprised by the weights of some of the riders on this thread. One said she is eleven stone but she looks nine stone to me. Another is only just over nine stone but the angle of the photograph makes her look around ten. I don't know your weight or the size of your horse, but I think you look okay on him size-wise.


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## Mongoose11 (30 October 2016)

rachk89 said:



			I want in on this too as I sometimes do worry if i look too big for my horse? Normally I am sure that I am ok because he is 16.1hh and by no means slim with it. But sometimes I see pictures and think "are they just unflattering or am I too big?". Sometimes I think I even look too tall for him but I can't be I am only 5'8.

Forgot weights: horse is around 550kg. I haven't weighed myself in ages but I doubt I have gotten past the 13st marker yet sadly. 







Please excuse the fact I am on the wrong diagonal I hadn't noticed during the warm up that i had once again gotten the wrong one. I kept changing the rein to get him flexing more and sometimes forgot to change because i was too focused on getting him working properly after yesterday being a waste of time.
		
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With tack you're riding at around 17% on him. 

Do you 'look' big? You'd have to ask others as I have no interest in what anyone looks like on their horse.

He looks like a nice type &#128522;


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## Wagtail (30 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			Perfick!  What about me?  65% I think, but I do it bareback to keep the weight down 
.
.







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That poor pony. How do you live with yourself, ybcm?


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## Leo Walker (30 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			This is an example of where pictures can be deceiving. Your t shirt looks like it is ballooning out making you look larger on top than perhaps you are. I have been surprised by the weights of some of the riders on this thread. One said she is eleven stone but she looks nine stone to me. Another is only just over nine stone but the angle of the photograph makes her look around ten. I don't know your weight or the size of your horse, but I think you look okay on him size-wise.
		
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You CANNOT accurately judge from a picture. It doesnt matter what her T-shirt is doing. She gave her weight and the horses weight. At 17% shes over what you feel comfortable with by a fair bit. Whereas I think 17% is completely fine


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## rachk89 (30 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			This is an example of where pictures can be deceiving. Your t shirt looks like it is ballooning out making you look larger on top than perhaps you are. I have been surprised by the weights of some of the riders on this thread. One said she is eleven stone but she looks nine stone to me. Another is only just over nine stone but the angle of the photograph makes her look around ten. I don't know your weight or the size of your horse, but I think you look okay on him size-wise.
		
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Yeah i should have gotten a better tshirt but it was the only one I had today that was clean everything else was in the wash lol.

You just missed my edit on weights too i forgot to add them my bad.


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## rachk89 (30 October 2016)

Mongoose11 said:



			With tack you're riding at around 17% on him. 

Do you 'look' big? You'd have to ask others as I have no interest in what anyone looks like on their horse.

He looks like a nice type &#128522;
		
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Yeah weight wise I am ok really I think. I definitely need to lose weight though not just for him but for my health too. At times like there ithink I look to big for him but I hardly 'need' a 17+ horse. I ain't that tall. 

Thanks he is a nice horse really. He did try more after that to get rounder but we were still warming up. He is so uncomfortable though bouncy as hell. When he gets excited its like sitting on a bouncy ball ontop of a trampoline.


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## Wagtail (30 October 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			You CANNOT accurately judge from a picture. It doesnt matter what her T-shirt is doing. She gave her weight and the horses weight. At 17% shes over what you feel comfortable with by a fair bit. Whereas I think 17% is completely fine
		
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That is exactly what I said; pictures can be deceiving. I look too big on my horse IMO but I am only 14% of her weight with tack. I think that is close to her limit because she is young and not fully muscled up. The horse in Rachk89's picture is far more established, is 16.1 and of a strong conformation. I have said twice in this thread that some horses can comfortably carry 20% of their weight. I don't know if you missed that or if you are being deliberately obtuse.


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## sasquatch (30 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			Sasquatch I think you need to knock off at least 20% for the tiny ears 

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I was warned those tiny ears would cause problems  



Wagtail said:



			You say you are 5'4? No way do you look even close to 11 stone. Not to me in any case. You also look great on your horse.
		
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I haven't weighed myself recently as scales scare me, but I was at about 10st7 a few months ago and I'm fairly sure I'm still around that if not a little heavier, so I would be about 11 stone at most I think without checking and having a pre-Halloween fright hehe. Softshell jackets are also extremely flattering 
Thank you  


I have sort of skim read a lot of the comments in this thread, but generally I think the 20% rule works as a basic guideline. However, that's exactly how it should be treated. It doesn't take into consideration if the horse is fit or obese, or their build, age and any underlying medical conditions that would impact on the work it can do or weight it can carry, nor does it look at the riders build or fitness.


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## Elf On A Shelf (30 October 2016)

Just for the banter - please.do feel free to say exactly what you like


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## rachk89 (30 October 2016)

EKW said:



			Just for the banter - please.do feel free to say exactly what you like  






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You are a totally perfect partnership! How could anyone say otherwise?


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## Elf On A Shelf (30 October 2016)

rachk89 said:



			You are a totally perfect partnership! How could anyone say otherwise? 

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Really?!? I thought I'd over horses myself! I get so self conscious about being too small!


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## ycbm (30 October 2016)

EKW said:



			Just for the banter - please.do feel free to say exactly what you like  






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I see you have avoided trying to fit your bottom into a saddle short enough for his back - or was that to reduce the weight ?


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## HufflyPuffly (30 October 2016)

Mongoose11 said:



			Perhaps it was the idea that someone who weighs 9.5 stone looks too heavy for their 14.3 &#128514;?
		
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You seem to have picked up on my horse a few times and missed that I as the rider of the horse entirely agree that I am on the heavy side for her?

She is a very fine boned, small horse and the extra bit is that she is 23 and a little bit creaky these days. Therefore in my opinion and others seem to agree she shouldn't be expected to be carrying near the 20% mark which with me riding she is. 

So for us judgment from a picture seems representative.


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## Leo Walker (30 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			I have said twice in this thread that some horses can comfortably carry 20% of their weight. I don't know if you missed that or if you are being deliberately obtuse.
		
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Not at all, but you did start this thread saying 




			I just had my five year old weighed on a weigh bridge. She is just over 15 hands and weighs 471 kg. That means that by the 20% rule she can carry up to 94 kg (which is almost 15 stone). Personally, I find this quite ridiculous.
		
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And another prolific poster said:




			Absolute maximum for any horse of any type - 20%

Young, old, not in regular conditioning work of a serious nature - deduct 20%

Horse is overweight - deduct the amount of weight that the horse is carrying in his own fat.

Rider is unbalanced/novice/poor muscle tone - deduct 20%

Horse is average width across the loins and fairly good conformation - minus 20%

Horse is narrow across the loins/long in the back/long legged especially in the cannon bones/small tight joints - minus 30%

Maximum deduction for multiple issues 50%
		
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Then we got bogged down in deciding if people were suitable depending on how aesthetically pleasing their photos were. With one poster saying that she would tell a rider to dismount from their own horse as he was over her limits.


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## cobgoblin (31 October 2016)

I see this has degenerated into outraged nit picking as usual.


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## Mongoose11 (31 October 2016)

AlexHyde said:



			You seem to have picked up on my horse a few times and missed that I as the rider of the horse entirely agree that I am on the heavy side for her?

She is a very fine boned, small horse and the extra bit is that she is 23 and a little bit creaky these days. Therefore in my opinion and others seem to agree she shouldn't be expected to be carrying near the 20% mark which with me riding she is. 

So for us judgment from a picture seems representative.
		
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Apologies, you have misunderstood me. I referred to you many times simply because it was a case in point that pictures can be deceiving! I didn't ever suggest you were too heavy for your horse. 

To me, you looked like a fair match for the horse and the stats say the same (age and physical health not considered).


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## rachk89 (31 October 2016)

EKW said:



			Really?!? I thought I'd over horses myself! I get so self conscious about being too small!
		
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Definitely not! In fact you can probably go for a smaller pony.


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## Wagtail (31 October 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			Not at all, but you did start this thread saying 



And another prolific poster said:



Then we got bogged down in deciding if people were suitable depending on how aesthetically pleasing their photos were. With one poster saying that she would tell a rider to dismount from their own horse as he was over her limits.
		
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I started this thread saying that 20% was ridiculous for MY horse. That does not mean that 20% is ridiculous for ANY horse. I do think however, those that can comfortably carry 20% are in a small minority and a safer value to advise people is 15%. But it seems that there are some on here who would rather adversely affect the welfare of horses just so they feel better themselves.


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## ycbm (31 October 2016)

And another prolific poster said:
		
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You  top and tailed that quote and make it look like I was telling everyone what the rules should be. In fact the top and tails invited discussion. Shame we can't just have one 

I would love to discuss whether other people think my first stab at a set of guidelines to help people decide what weight their horse can carry make any sense. Anyone?


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## Wagtail (31 October 2016)

cobgoblin said:



			I see this has degenerated into outraged nit picking as usual.
		
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Yes. Same old same old.


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## FfionWinnie (31 October 2016)

I'll continue to use my common sense.


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## Goldenstar (31 October 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			I'll continue to use my common sense.
		
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Best plan .


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## Mongoose11 (31 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			I started this thread saying that 20% was ridiculous for MY horse. That does not mean that 20% is ridiculous for ANY horse. I do think however, those that can comfortably carry 20% are in a small minority and a safer value to advise people is 15%. But it seems that there are some on here who would rather adversely affect the welfare of horses just so they feel better themselves.
		
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I do think that's unfair. Who are the 'some' people that you speak of with such authority? Is it me who won't ride their horse when they hit 18% despite being told by everyone going that I should and the horse still wanting to tank around with me? Is it FC who has also stopped riding in the past when weight has become an issue despite being told numerous times by her vet to get on and do? 

Who are the 'some people' who adversely want to affect the horse's welfare? I think your perspective is too extreme and mine sits somewhere in between yours and the 20% rule - what's so bad about that? 

Why do you continually make personal comments?


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## Bernster (31 October 2016)

Ok, have caught up now. Some interesting discussion in the earlier parts of this thread in particular. I have heard of the 20% rule but like anything like averages and general guides, it's v rough and takes no account of individual rider or horse issues.

I suspect 15% is a more useful rough guide. But horse conformation and issues def a major factor.  Like Rach, I am probably more like 17% all in for this boy (this is prob the clearest side-on pic I have), but that's using a weight tape which I think tends to underestimate?







I'm too heavy for my other horse who's got back issues and is coming back into work, so i don't ride her.

Pics are terrible however, as it's proven already on here just how difficult it is to judge people's weights, let alone horses!

I've also joined the wobbleberry challenge so hoping that will inspire me to lose weight and get fit for next year!


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## Mongoose11 (31 October 2016)

Bernster, your weight tape is likely to be out by at least 50kg in my experience.


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## Holding (31 October 2016)

Perhaps somebody could create an 'am I too big for my horse' handy flowchart. To include questions such as "is your arse bigger than the horse's?", "when you mount, does your horse stagger like a drunk?", "after dismounting is your horse's back two inches closer to the ground?", and "half way through your ride, does your horse stop and try to swap places with you?" I think it's mainly common sense, looking at a horse and knowing any pertinent details (age, pre-existing conditions etc.) I usually can tell if I'm too big. And if I'm unsure I err on the side of caution and don't get on.


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## Leo Walker (31 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			But it seems that there are some on here who would rather adversely affect the welfare of horses just so they feel better themselves.
		
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Who? Because if you dont specify then thats just a snidey comment designed to wind people up who dont agree with you. Its also, yet again, incredibly rude. 



ycbm said:



			You  top and tailed that quote and make it look like I was telling everyone what the rules should be. In fact the top and tails invited discussion. Shame we can't just have one 

I would love to discuss whether other people think my first stab at a set of guidelines to help people decide what weight their horse can carry make any sense. Anyone?
		
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Who cant? Its still a discussion even when I dont agree with you. I posted several pages back saying that professional, qualified, experienced people disagreed with you and if people are concerned or even just interested then thats who they should be taking advice from. 

Its apparent from this thread alone that people have different ideas, and that some people appear to be basing those ideas on what people look like, not on the facts or the research. And even then theres no agreement.


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## Bernster (31 October 2016)

Holding said:



			Perhaps somebody could create an 'am I too big for my horse' handy flowchart. To include questions such as "is your arse bigger than the horse's?", "when you mount, does your horse stagger like a drunk?", "after dismounting is your horse's back two inches closer to the ground?", and "half way through your ride, does your horse stop and try to swap places with you?" I think it's mainly common sense, looking at a horse and knowing any pertinent details (age, pre-existing conditions etc.) I usually can tell if I'm too big. And if I'm unsure I err on the side of caution and don't get on.
		
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Haha!


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## Elf On A Shelf (31 October 2016)

Mongoose11 said:



			Bernster, your weight tape is likely to be out by at least 50kg in my experience.
		
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This. Weightapes are good for keeping track of gain and loss but aren't actually accurate as to the real weight of the horse. A weighbridge is far more accurate.


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## Broc (31 October 2016)

My total weight with tack on my 14.1 heavy gypsy cob is 12.5 stone, panicking now that I am way too heavy for him......


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## Meowy Catkin (31 October 2016)

I have found that quoting the 20% rule is very useful with non horsey people. If they are used to dogs and cats, my 15hh arab looks HUGE by comparison and they can't imagine that she wouldn't be able to carry them even though they are actually far too big for her. So to be able to say, I'm sorry but horses can only carry a maximum of 20% of their weight and that includes the saddle, your clothes etc... is really handy.


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## HufflyPuffly (31 October 2016)

Broc said:



			My total weight with tack on my 14.1 heavy gypsy cob is 12.5 stone, panicking now that I am way too heavy for him......
		
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I'd not panic if he's a true heavy cob, amount of bone and conformation are the big players in weight carrying ability. 

Topaz has a lot of bone, with short cannons and a strong conformation (leg in each corner, though is a touch long behind the saddle maybe), so can carry a lot more weight for her height than if Doodle was her height as Doodle is a very finely built.


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## Elf On A Shelf (31 October 2016)

Broc said:



			My total weight with tack on my 14.1 heavy gypsy cob is 12.5 stone, panicking now that I am way too heavy for him......
		
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Can your pony work in a nice outline with uphill paces? Can he still bog off with across a stubble field? If yes then your totally grand! My shetlands still bog off with me when the mood takes them and that would be them carrying just over 10St!


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## HufflyPuffly (31 October 2016)

EKW said:



			Can your pony work in a nice outline with uphill paces? Can he still bog off with across a stubble field? If yes then your totally grand! My shetlands still bog off with me when the mood takes them and that would be them carrying just over 10St!
		
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:lol: If we're going off ability to be sods mine are definitely good carrying me around :lol:


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## Wagtail (31 October 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			Who? Because if you dont specify then thats just a snidey comment designed to wind people up who dont agree with you. Its also, yet again, incredibly rude.
		
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Not a snidey comment at all. I set up this thread in the interests of horse welfare. On the back of other threads where thankfully some authorities are taking action on people being to heavy for their mounts, and on the back of my mare having had her first weigh in yesterday. The usual people including yourself then argue that actually, it is okay to ride their horse at 22% and that vets etc have told you it's okay. I don't think this is in anyway conducive to horse welfare to potentially encourage others that it is perfectly fine to do so. I can only think you oppose any attempt by myself or others such as ycbm to try to have a serious discussion regarding the weight bearing ability of horses because it must make you feel better.

As for Mongoose, who knows what is buzzing around in her head? She just gives me the impression that she is a complete fruit loop. Yes this may seem rude, but when someone stalks your threads regardless of subject matter, and regardless of the fact that I have made it clear that I will not engage with her, she continues to make a spectacle of herself. That is my honest opinion. I think she is unhealthily obsessed with me and it's creepy. That is why I do not answer her posts.


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## Mongoose11 (31 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Not a snidey comment at all. I set up this thread in the interests of horse welfare. On the back of other threads where thankfully some authorities are taking action on people being to heavy for their mounts, and on the back of my mare having had her first weigh in yesterday. The usual people including yourself then argue that actually, it is okay to ride their horse at 22% and that vets etc have told you it's okay. I don't think this is in anyway conducive to horse welfare to potentially encourage others that it is perfectly fine to do so. I can only think you oppose any attempt by myself or others such as ycbm to try to have a serious discussion regarding the weight bearing ability of horses because it must make you feel better.

As for Mongoose, who knows what is buzzing around in her head? She just gives me the impression that she is a complete fruit loop. Yes this may seem rude, but when someone stalks your threads regardless of subject matter, and regardless of the fact that I have made it clear that I will not engage with her, she continues to make a spectacle of herself. That is my honest opinion. I think she is unhealthily obsessed with me and it's creepy. That is why I do not answer her posts.
		
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Out of the last 50 threads you have started I have commented on five &#128580;

Five threads out of fifty does not an a obsessive make. 

Your comments are inappropriate. Nowhere have I made personal comments about you, I've simply disagreed with you and pointed out some flaws in your approach.


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## YorksG (31 October 2016)

Mongoose11 said:



			Out of the last 50 threads you have started I have commented on five &#128580;

Five threads out of fifty does not an a obsessive make. 

Your comments are inappropriate. Nowhere have I made personal comments about you, I've simply disagreed with you and pointed out some flaws in your approach.
		
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You did however make a rather sweeping statement that lighter riders are bitter if eaten, can you imagine the outcry if someone had suggested that larger people would be too greasy to eat?


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## Merlod (31 October 2016)

Personanlly I think it should be the riders weight should be at 10% because no one ever factors in the tack or 15% if you include tack.


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## Mongoose11 (31 October 2016)

YorksG said:



			You did however make a rather sweeping statement that lighter riders are bitter if eaten, can you imagine the outcry if someone had suggested that larger people would be too greasy to eat?
		
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I'd imagine that is fatties would be rather more greasy to eat &#128514; That makes perfect sense!


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## YorksG (31 October 2016)

Mongoose11 said:



			I did. You're right - I'm not sure what that has to do with the point that I have made above. That wasn't a personal comment aimed at Wagtail. I've had enough opportunity to respond to her in a personal way and I haven't.

I'd imagine that is fatties would be rather more greasy to eat &#55357;&#56834; That makes perfect sense!
		
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So just a gratuitously unpleasant comment aimed at all lighter riders, charming.


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## Mongoose11 (31 October 2016)

YorksG said:



			So just a gratuitously unpleasant comment aimed at all lighter riders, charming.
		
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Apologies for causing offence here.


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## Mongoose11 (31 October 2016)

Merlod said:



			Personanlly I think it should be the riders weight should be at 10% because no one ever factors in the tack or 15% if you include tack.
		
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I think plenty of people do include the tack but would we really need to add another 5% for tack?


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## Annagain (31 October 2016)

My two are about 640kg and 670kg respectively (16.3 and 17hh hunter types) at peak fitness. With tack, at my heaviest (have lost 1 1/2 stones since then) I weigh in at around the 15% mark, I'm more like 13-14% at the moment and I'm comfortable with that but wouldn't want to ride a much smaller horse. 

At our riding club camp last year, we had a feed company with a weighbridge. With the exception of one VERY obese horse, my two were the heaviest. The next three were quite surprising. The first was a 15.2 chunky Warmblood who is a big lump of solid bone. (if you asked me his height I would say 16.2 because he is just so imposing) who was 630kg. Next was a 14.3 real traditional cob and a 17hh ex national hunt horse who were both 580kg. While I expected the TB to not be as heavy as the warmblood I though his extra 9 inches would make him heavier than the cob. I also expected both the TB and the cob to be lighter than quite a few 16hh-ish middleweight riding club horse types who turned out to be surprisingly light.  

TB's rider is 6' and slim but weighs about the same as me (5'7" and apple shaped with short legs). She looks great on him, whereas I look like a weeble balancing on the edge of a surfboard. It just goes to show how difficult it is to guesstimate weight (of horse and rider) and how photos could be deceiving.


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## Wagtail (31 October 2016)

Thankfully most people realise that this thread is not about overweight people, it is about the weight that a horse can carry. Many men who are fit and slender are too heavy for most horses. I set up this thread in an effort to try to come up with some sort of formula for deciphering what weight any particular horse can carry. So far ycbm has been the only one coming up with one and no one but me has responded to that. I am busy working on one myself, but does anyone else have any comments to make regarding ycbm's offering? I personally think it's a good one which I agree with, but perhaps it's slightly difficult to understand or could be misinterpreted. I think it would be a good subject for a spreadsheet where you input a few measurements and stats such as age and fitness and it calculates the weight bearing capacity of any given horse.


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## Wagtail (31 October 2016)

annagain said:



			My two are about 640kg and 670kg respectively (16.3 and 17hh hunter types) at peak fitness. With tack, at my heaviest (have lost 1 1/2 stones since then) I weigh in at around the 15% mark, I'm more like 13-14% at the moment and I'm comfortable with that but wouldn't want to ride a much smaller horse. 

At our riding club camp last year, we had a feed company with a weighbridge. With the exception of one VERY obese horse, my two were the heaviest. The next three were quite surprising. The first was a 15.2 chunky Warmblood who is a big lump of solid bone. (if you asked me his height I would say 16.2 because he is just so imposing) who was 630kg. Next was a 14.3 real traditional cob and a 17hh ex national hunt horse who were both 580kg. While I expected the TB to not be as heavy as the warmblood I though his extra 9 inches would make him heavier than the cob. I also expected both the TB and the cob to be lighter than quite a few 16hh-ish middleweight riding club horse types who turned out to be surprisingly light.  

It just goes to show how difficult it is to guesstimate weight (of horse and rider) and how photos could be deceiving.
		
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I completely agree. 

A couple of the horses we had weighed here the other day surprised me. The biggest surprise was a 16.2hh ISH with plenty of bone and around a 3 condition score, possibly 3.5. I expected him to be at least 600kg, but he was only 550kg. Another obese horse I guessed to be 650kg but she weigh taped at 600. She was bang on 650kg so I guessed that one right. Then we have an obese 15.2 cob condition score 4.5 with lots of bone. I would have guessed around 620kg but he was only 580kg. I guessed my mare was 480, so I got her almost correct as she was 471kg. The two fatties came to me from a huge grassy field and are needless to say on a diet!


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## be positive (31 October 2016)

Merlod said:



			Personanlly I think it should be the riders weight should be at 10% because no one ever factors in the tack or 15% if you include tack.
		
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If we used 10% then not many people would be riding, 10% of my ISH would be 8 stone 9 pounds not a realisitic amount for a 16.2 to be expected to carry as his maximum, the irish pony in my yard would be limited to 7.8 stone which is completely unreasonable, his "limit" we have set and one he is comfortable carrying for the work he does is 12stone which is just over 15%, he would not go hunting carrying that but is fine for normal work.

I think we need to use common sense, something that gets forgotten at times, take into account what work is being done and how fit the horse is rather than getting too bogged down on generalisations, a fit healthy cob going for a steady hack will be happier carrying more weight than it's optimum than a tb going out hunting all day.


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## Leo Walker (31 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Not a snidey comment at all. I set up this thread in the interests of horse welfare. On the back of other threads where thankfully some authorities are taking action on people being to heavy for their mounts, and on the back of my mare having had her first weigh in yesterday. The usual people including yourself then argue that actually, it is okay to ride their horse at 22% and that vets etc have told you it's okay. I don't think this is in anyway conducive to horse welfare to potentially encourage others that it is perfectly fine to do so. I can only think you oppose any attempt by myself or others such as ycbm to try to have a serious discussion regarding the weight bearing ability of horses because it must make you feel better.

As for Mongoose, who knows what is buzzing around in her head? She just gives me the impression that she is a complete fruit loop. Yes this may seem rude, but when someone stalks your threads regardless of subject matter, and regardless of the fact that I have made it clear that I will not engage with her, she continues to make a spectacle of herself. That is my honest opinion. I think she is unhealthily obsessed with me and it's creepy. That is why I do not answer her posts.
		
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It is a snidey comment and if I was that way inclined there are MANY comments I could make to you in a similar vein. I'm not going to. 

Where have I advocated that everyone rides their horses at 22%? I have under the advice of several professionals and having read all the research. I did advocate that people should ask the professionals that they use. 

I'm not sure why this is damaging to horse welfare? Because as I said, the research and opinion of the professionals I use say exactly the opposite.

I disagree with your opinion. I'm entitled to do that. I'm not sure why that would make me feel better? Just for the record, I dont currently ride my horse at all, and in fact have ridden him probably 10 times in nearly 5years of ownership. Riding is not a priority for me. I quite often say I want to ride more, but the reality is, if I never ride again then it doesnt matter to me.


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## Leo Walker (31 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			So far ycbm has been the only one coming up with one and no one but me has responded to that. I am busy working on one myself, but does anyone else have any comments to make regarding ycbm's offering?
		
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I've responded to it, twice.


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## Wagtail (31 October 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			It is a snidey comment and if I was that way inclined there are MANY comments I could make to you in a similar vein. I'm not going to. 

Where have I advocated that everyone rides their horses at 22%? I have under the advice of several professionals and having read all the research. I did advocate that people should ask the professionals that they use. 

I'm not sure why this is damaging to horse welfare? Because as I said, the research and opinion of the professionals I use say exactly the opposite.

I disagree with your opinion. I'm entitled to do that. I'm not sure why that would make me feel better? Just for the record, I dont currently ride my horse at all, and in fact have ridden him probably 10 times in nearly 5years of ownership. Riding is not a priority for me. I quite often say I want to ride more, but the reality is, if I never ride again then it doesnt matter to me.
		
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I am not saying YOU are doing anything to damage your horse's welfare; I am saying that by stating that vets have advised you that you are fine to ride even at 26% this is not conducive to horse welfare because some people will apply that to themselves and their own horse. Someone has said that a vet has told them it is fine so it must be fine for them too. What you do with your own horse is up to you, but people take what people say on a forum such as this and think it also applies to them. How does arguing that horses can carry even more weight than 20% help horses? How can it do anything other than potentially cause them harm? If you are happy with what your vet is telling you, then that's fine. It only applies to you and your horse. I would rather advise people that they should be fine up to a percentage of say 15% but any more than that then they need to take expert advice. Obviously there are many on here that use their own experience and common sense and don't need advice from a forum, and that's great. I am talking about the many people who are unsure and come on here for advice.


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## Regandal (31 October 2016)

I think any formula would have to take height and amount of bone as the 2 main criteria as they essentially influence the weight carrying ability, and are not altered by condition. 
I am not good enough at maths however,  to attempt one!


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## Wagtail (31 October 2016)

Regandal said:



			I think any formula would have to take height and amount of bone as the 2 main criteria as they essentially influence the weight carrying ability, and are not altered by condition. 
I am not good enough at maths however,  to attempt one!
		
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Thanks. Yes I agree that height and amount of bone should be important considerations. I think what we would need would be a consensus of opinion using experience and common sense to agree on the weight bearing capacity for a number of different builds and types. Then use those as benchmarks to come up with a calculation. I think this could be done through something such as survey monkey. I'm going to work on it when I get more time and come up with something.


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## Leo Walker (31 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			I am not saying YOU are doing anything to damage your horse's welfare; I am saying that by stating that vets have advised you that you are fine to ride even at 26% this is not conducive to horse welfare because some people will apply that to themselves and their own horse. Someone has said that a vet has told them it is fine so it must be fine for them too. What you do with your own horse is up to you, but people take what people say on a forum such as this and think it also applies to them. How does arguing that horses can carry even more weight than 20% help horses? How can it do anything other than potentially cause them harm? If you are happy with what your vet is telling you, then that's fine. It only applies to you and your horse. I would rather advise people that they should be fine up to a percentage of say 15% but any more than that then they need to take expert advice. Obviously there are many on here that use their own experience and common sense and don't need advice from a forum, and that's great. I am talking about the many people who are unsure and come on here for advice.
		
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So I cant say what numerous vets/physios etc have said to me, which correlates with the research because people who dont know any better might read a forum and take it on board? But you can tell people 15% because thats your opinion?

I have repeatedly said that people should ask their own vets/physios etc.


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## cobgoblin (31 October 2016)

Coming back to ROR and their weight limit of 17%....presumably only for tbs. I was wondering how they are going to enforce it. Given that visual assessment is thought to be so inaccurate, are they going to weigh both horse and rider at shows? I can't see every show hiring a weigh bridge.
Or are horses going to come with a payload certificate?


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## Leo Walker (31 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Thanks. Yes I agree that height and amount of bone should be important considerations. I think what we would need would be a consensus of opinion using experience and common sense to agree on the weight bearing capacity for a number of different builds and types. Then use those as benchmarks to come up with a calculation. I think this could be done through something such as survey monkey. I'm going to work on it when I get more time and come up with something.
		
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I thought that the one thing we all agreed on is that every horse is different and if you have any concerns you should ask your vet??


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## Wagtail (31 October 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			I thought that the one thing we all agreed on is that every horse is different and if you have any concerns you should ask your vet??
		
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Why are you so obstructive to me trying to do what I can to ensure horses are not overloaded? What motivates you?


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## be positive (31 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Thanks. Yes I agree that height and amount of bone should be important considerations. I think what we would need would be a consensus of opinion using experience and common sense to agree on the weight bearing capacity for a number of different builds and types. Then use those as benchmarks to come up with a calculation. I think this could be done through something such as survey monkey. I'm going to work on it when I get more time and come up with something.
		
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They are important considerations but knowing how few people actually know the true height of their horse, what may be written on the passport is NOT the height but normally a rough estimate and usually well over what it actually measures, then add to that whether they know where to measure bone correctly you bring in the possibility of even more random guides than the weightape offers.


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## Wagtail (31 October 2016)

cobgoblin said:



			Coming back to ROR and their weight limit of 17%....presumably only for tbs. I was wondering how they are going to enforce it. Given that visual assessment is thought to be so inaccurate, are they going to weigh both horse and rider at shows? I can't see every show hiring a weigh bridge.
Or are horses going to come with a payload certificate?
		
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That's a good point. I have no idea how they could do it. I can only think they must have a guide to the healthy weight of horses of different types and weights. They are either going to have to weigh every rider, or someone is going to have to make a judgement and request a rider is weighed if they suspect the weight limit is being exceeded. Personally, I think that every rider should be weighed and that way it removes the possibility of offence being taken and removes the subjectiveness of it. It has to be based on the IDEAL weight of the horses though, otherwise people will be tempted to fatten up their horses so that they fit within the boundaries.


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## Wagtail (31 October 2016)

be positive said:



			They are important considerations but knowing how few people actually know the true height of their horse, what may be written on the passport is NOT the height but normally a rough estimate and usually well over what it actually measures, then add to that whether they know where to measure bone correctly you bring in the possibility of even more random guides than the weightape offers.
		
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It's a minefield, and probably an impossible one to navigate. Worth a try though, I think.


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## Leo Walker (31 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Why are you so obstructive to me trying to do what I can to ensure horses are not overloaded? What motivates you?
		
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Because I think you have an extremely unhealthy attitude to your own and others weight, which makes me very, very uncomfortable that you are doing this. I also think that the way you are doing this, with no consistency and assessing people from a photo with guesstimated weights is ludicrous. 

People who care will check with vets etc, people who dont will ride regardless of any survey or guidelines or anything you say.


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## Wagtail (31 October 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			Because I think you have an extremely unhealthy attitude to your own and others weight, which makes me very, very uncomfortable that you are doing this. I also think that the way you are doing this, with no consistency and assessing people from a photo with guesstimated weights is ludicrous.
		
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So as I thought, your motivation is a personal one.


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## huskydamage (31 October 2016)

Well I got the weigh tape out and depending on which way I did it, I got different sizes. 368 and 399. I am calling myself 12stone with saddle etc so with one method I would be over 20 %and the other under.  My conclusion is none of this makes much sense to me, this thread has got way too ranty and I feel bad for people with horses that need exercise but aren't riding because of stuff like this. Honestly I haven't seen that many fat people riding horses, although it obviously happens, the largest rider I know on a pony is me,  but I do know loads of people with multiple horses they don't ride for all kinds of lame excuses, alot of the horses are not healthier at all for it,quite the opposite.


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## PaddyMonty (31 October 2016)

Mongoose11 said:



			This would leave my 15.1 heavy weight cob with 10 inches of bone only being able to carry 11 stone.
		
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Your math is wrong. horse at 600kg (as stated by you), 15% is 90kg, mulitpy by 2.2 to give pounds =198 lbs or 14.14 stone.


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## ycbm (31 October 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			I thought that the one thing we all agreed on is that every horse is different and if you have any concerns you should ask your vet??
		
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No, I didn't agree that. Some vets, especially those who don't ride, haven't got a clue. Some will say anything to keep a client. Some will be too embarrassed to tell a client they are too big for their horse. Some simply wouldn't be able to judge the weight of the client or the horse.

My advice would be to weigh your horse on a proper machine, take 20%, then make the kind of deductions I suggested earlier for age, conformation, etc.


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## ycbm (31 October 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			Because I think you have an extremely unhealthy attitude to your own and others weight, which makes me very, very uncomfortable that you are doing this. I also think that the way you are doing this, with no consistency and assessing people from a photo with guesstimated weights is ludicrous. 

People who care will check with vets etc, people who dont will ride regardless of any survey or guidelines or anything you say.
		
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FC those people specifically requested an aesthetic evaluation of their photos.


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## Leo Walker (31 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			So as I thought, your motivation is a personal one.
		
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Would you like to add that I'm bullying you and to tell me all about the PMs you have had from people who are too frightened to post now, because thats how these things go usually with you.


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## ycbm (31 October 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			So I cant say what numerous vets/physios etc have said to me, which correlates with the research because people who dont know any better might read a forum and take it on board? But you can tell people 15% because thats your opinion?

I have repeatedly said that people should ask their own vets/physios etc.
		
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There is no research that supports your experts. Nobody knows what the effect over the lifetime of the horse is of carrying higher or lower weights. That research, afaik, has not been done.

And until it is, I will continue to err on the side of caution and use 15% for a horse that is actually required to work seriously, and an absolute rule that the saddle must be big enough to reduce the pressure points below 1.5lbs/in sq while still ending before the horse's last rib.

I don't mind if you want to apply a different rule to your own horse, but please do not claim you have expert back-up for your decision, because at the moment we are all, vets, physios and laymen, waving a wet finger in the air.

I could jog a marathon tomorrow and be fine. But if I do one every day I'll probably be in a wheelchair with no cartilage in my knees or hip joints in ten years time. We need a long term study on a very large group of horses before we can put any faith in research to help us decide the optimum weight limit for a horse in regular work.

Until then, common sense for those who have the experience (and any common sense to spare!),  but everyone else needs a guideline.


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## FfionWinnie (31 October 2016)

Broc said:



			My total weight with tack on my 14.1 heavy gypsy cob is 12.5 stone, panicking now that I am way too heavy for him......
		
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My cob weighed over 500kgs on the scales at 14.1 with not an ounce of fat on her. I would describe her as a sporty cob.


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## indie1282 (31 October 2016)

Using Wagtails original post - just because a horse can carry ( in theory ) 15 stone should it have to? Surely it's better for the horse to carry less weight?

I know when I am at my lightest my riding improves no end and my horses go better. I feel more confident and I am a much more effective rider.

I think if you are riding at 20% or over then that's too heavy. Sorry!


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## Nudibranch (31 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			There is no research that supports your experts. Nobody knows what the effect over the lifetime of the horse is of carrying higher or lower weights. That research, afaik, has not been done.

And until it is, I will continue to err on the side of caution and use 15% for a horse that is actually required to work seriously, and an absolute rule that the saddle must be big enough to reduce the pressure points below 1.5lbs/in sq while still ending before the horse's last rib.

I don't mind if you want to apply a different rule to your own horse, but please do not claim you have expert back-up for your decision, because at the moment we are all, vets, physios and laymen, waving a wet finger in the air.

I could jog a marathon tomorrow and be fine. But if I do one every day I'll probably be in a wheelchair with no cartilage in my knees or hip joints in ten years time. We need a long term study on a very large group of horses before we can put any faith in research to help us decide the optimum weight limit for a horse in regular work.

Until then, common sense for those who have the experience (and any common sense to spare!),  but everyone else needs a guideline.
		
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I would agree with this; as I pointed out earlier the existing research isn't really fit for purpose. I do think there are a fair few riders who are, imo, too large for their mounts but nobody is ever going to agree and certainly nobody is going to admit it! There's a fair bit of inverse snobbery on here these days about larger types, especially warmbloods and the like. Given the increasing proportion of overweight or obese population, I suspect some rider/horse combinations would be better with a bit of spare capacity for the sake of welfare. But it's too emotive a subject and tbh, there's never going to be a perfect one fits all rule as there are way too many variables. So in that light I think 15% is a safer guide for the animal.


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## Wagtail (31 October 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			Would you like to add that I'm bullying you and to tell me all about the PMs you have had from people who are too frightened to post now, because thats how these things go usually with you.
		
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Crikey, FC, you are getting as bad as Mongoose now.


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## cobgoblin (31 October 2016)

I wouldn't trust a vet to know the weight carrying capacity of a horse.....that's not their job and their guess is no better than anyone else's. Plus they are running a business and wouldn't want to upset anyone.

I think 15% is a good figure to aim at...it's simple ..and it will usually be a guesstimate because most of us don't have constant access to a weigh bridge. So at least that figure gives some leeway. Hopefully enough leeway to take account of conformation and age.
The 20% rule can come up with some ridiculous numbers, especially for the heavier draft type animals, who are less suited to weight carrying ,,,,,and there would always be that human trait of pushing the boundaries by the odd percentage or two....better that it is only pushed up to 18 or 19%.


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## Goldenstar (31 October 2016)

Why would a vet know it's in the same category of vets giving training advice .


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## Equi (31 October 2016)

Well i kept my promise and went to sw. I'm a few lbs lighter than i was the last time i weighed in so thats good! lol. I have 9lbs to loose until i can go on a trek with my friends again due to the weight limit at the yard, and im really dying for a good blast.


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## Wagtail (31 October 2016)

equi said:



			Well i kept my promise and went to sw. I'm a few lbs lighter than i was the last time i weighed in so thats good! lol. I have 9lbs to loose until i can go on a trek with my friends again due to the weight limit at the yard, and im really dying for a good blast.
		
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Well done, equi. Nothing like a horsey target for getting the pounds off. I struggled for over a year to shed enough weight to back my mare.


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## Equi (31 October 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Well done, equi. Nothing like a horsey target for getting the pounds off. I struggled for over a year to shed enough weight to back my mare.
		
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I have too. I eventually gave up on one loan cause i just could not loose enough weight. He did have navicular, which was not noticed until i started riding him more than a hack, but i'm 100% certain i aggravated it and its something i felt very guilty about, but at the same time it is the reason he got retired cause i spent about a year complaining to owner and getting tests done - she thought i was just making excuses cause i was nervous rider. The fact he was morbidly obese and his owner did not think it was an issue did not help. He was MUCH better with the weight off, but i still never got down enough to where i felt comfortable going above a walk on the flat on him. 

Will share some pics, cause i know what was wrong. Poor boy is now in my orchard under the trees along with my first pony.


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## TheHairyOne (31 October 2016)

I agree with those who are saying even the weight of the horse is very difficult to judge. This guy is just 16hh,  does not have a lot of bone, is (was 4 weeks ago anyway!) fit and in full work, wb cross and weighed in at 630kg. Vets were astounded.


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## ycbm (31 October 2016)

equi said:



			Well i kept my promise and went to sw. I'm a few lbs lighter than i was the last time i weighed in so thats good! lol. I have 9lbs to loose until i can go on a trek with my friends again due to the weight limit at the yard, and im really dying for a good blast.
		
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Great start 


Can I recommend that you weigh yourself every day? It helps, because weight naturally fluctuates up and down a bit, and if one of the random up days is the same as a weighing day, you can become so demoralised that you give up.

You'll get that blast!


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## Equi (31 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			Great start 


Can I recommend that you weigh yourself every day? It helps, because weight naturally fluctuates up and down a bit, and if one of the random up days is the same as a weighing day, you can become so demoralised that you give up.

You'll get that blast!
		
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I did buy some weights a few weeks ago so i COULD. SW tell you not to cause if you have put on you think **** it, if you have lost you think well i have lost i can eat now hahah. I just need to cook proper meals again, i used to be SO good at SW but i really just got complacent and fell off the wagon and stopped doing it. But my shock to the system came when i was asked for the trek, and i weighed and found i was 9lbs too heavy. Last time, i will be totally honest, i felt the horse struggle. A strapping 16hh+ heavy cob type who is trekked several times a day.


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## LadySam (31 October 2016)

ycbm said:



			Can I recommend that you weigh yourself every day? It helps, because weight naturally fluctuates up and down a bit, and if one of the random up days is the same as a weighing day, you can become so demoralised that you give up.
		
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Second this, with a good digital scale.  Once upon a time I'd never have done this but it's working out really well for me at the moment.  I'm using a Fitbit and also logging everything I eat and do.  If my weight fluctuates up I can look back at my food and activity and see if I need to tweak anything.

But we digress.  Back to the internet nipping and kicking?


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## rachk89 (31 October 2016)

be positive said:



			If we used 10% then not many people would be riding, 10% of my ISH would be 8 stone 9 pounds not a realisitic amount for a 16.2 to be expected to carry as his maximum, the irish pony in my yard would be limited to 7.8 stone which is completely unreasonable, his "limit" we have set and one he is comfortable carrying for the work he does is 12stone which is just over 15%, he would not go hunting carrying that but is fine for normal work.

I think we need to use common sense, something that gets forgotten at times, take into account what work is being done and how fit the horse is rather than getting too bogged down on generalisations, a fit healthy cob going for a steady hack will be happier carrying more weight than it's optimum than a tb going out hunting all day.
		
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Yeah 10% is a little too low. Only people who weigh 55kg could ride my horse then and that's just silly. He is a large horse with large and strong legs he could carry more than me really with ease but i wouldn't do that to him. Most he has probably carried was 14st that was a very capable rider and they were jumping very easily. Horse was happy as anything getting to jump with someone not terrified haha. I would be more worried if he had thin legs but they are massive and he is pretty solid all over (his quarters are solid muscle he is more toned than the eventer on the yard there haha). He has no issues with carrying heavier people like myself. But I still want to lose weight.


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## Mike007 (1 November 2016)

TheHairyOne said:



			I agree with those who are saying even the weight of the horse is very difficult to judge. This guy is just 16hh,  does not have a lot of bone, is (was 4 weeks ago anyway!) fit and in full work, wb cross and weighed in at 630kg. Vets were astounded. 






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I do like him, hope the bandage isnt a big problem. I like the look in his eye .


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## Wagtail (1 November 2016)

equi said:



			I have too. I eventually gave up on one loan cause i just could not loose enough weight. He did have navicular, which was not noticed until i started riding him more than a hack, but i'm 100% certain i aggravated it and its something i felt very guilty about, but at the same time it is the reason he got retired cause i spent about a year complaining to owner and getting tests done - she thought i was just making excuses cause i was nervous rider. The fact he was morbidly obese and his owner did not think it was an issue did not help. He was MUCH better with the weight off, but i still never got down enough to where i felt comfortable going above a walk on the flat on him. 

Will share some pics, cause i know what was wrong. Poor boy is now in my orchard under the trees along with my first pony. 











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He doesn't look the most comfortable of horses, does he equi? Especially in the top picture he looks like he's struggling behind. To be honest, I think he would have struggled with someone half your weight and retirement was the best option for him.


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## Wagtail (1 November 2016)

He certainly doesn't look over 600kg! Beautiful horse.


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## Wagtail (1 November 2016)

I'm pleased to see that this thread has taken a much more sensible turn and is back on track. Thank you for all the constructive replies. It seems that the majority of people would agree that 20% is too high a value, but that 10% would be completely impractical. Obviously common sense, experience and being a good judge of the horse's condition and conformation are the most important factors in making a decision about its weight carrying ability, but it is probably safe for simplicity's sake to advise people that normally 15% is a good safe limit for the majority of horses. Some may be able to cope with more, others with less, but telling people they are okay at 20% is potentially exposing their horse's to harm IMO.


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## hackedoff (1 November 2016)

I find the rule somewhat baffling and peoples take on it. My pony weighs 430kg and has 9 inchs of bone at 13.3 HH. I weigh 68 to 70kg (depending on time of day at the moment) and am overweight for my height and on a diet. In theory she is happy to carry me, yet aesthetically I don't look right. if I posted a picture here with me on her Im sure people would say I am too heavy yet in theory I am not and in practice she has no issue with carrying me. So overall I think the 20% rule is a load of tosh.


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## Equi (1 November 2016)

Wagtail said:



			He doesn't look the most comfortable of horses, does he equi? Especially in the top picture he looks like he's struggling behind. To be honest, I think he would have struggled with someone half your weight and retirement was the best option for him.
		
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Yes his owner is feather light and after finally riding him herself she agreed he was "not right" so the only riding he got after that was her 8yo leading about the field.


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## Goldenstar (1 November 2016)

Just having lunch and worked out J my TB can carry 19 stone 5 lbs if you do 20% that is clearly ridiculous  .
At 15 % it is 14 stone 6lbs I think that an OK weight for him to carry he's a big strong fully adult horse with lots of bone .
At 10% it's just over 9 and a half stone ,common sense should tell us that all nine and a half stone people not need to ride and 620 kilo horse .
I took the wieght he is when he's fit .


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## ihatework (1 November 2016)

I hover just under 15% of my horses fit weight. It's fine but I am conscious that it would be better to be less. I'd love to be 13%, but realistically 14% is achieveable.
I couldn't imagine putting anywhere near 20% on her, as far as I'm concerned I'm about the max she should be carrying.


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## asterope (1 November 2016)

TheHairyOne said:



			I agree with those who are saying even the weight of the horse is very difficult to judge. This guy is just 16hh,  does not have a lot of bone, is (was 4 weeks ago anyway!) fit and in full work, wb cross and weighed in at 630kg. Vets were astounded. 






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What a lovely, lovely face your boy has! I do hope he makes a full recovery. And you're right, he certainly doesn't look anywhere near that weight!!


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## indie1282 (1 November 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Just having lunch and worked out J my TB can carry 19 stone 5 lbs if you do 20% that is clearly ridiculous  .
At 15 % it is 14 stone 6lbs I think that an OK weight for him to carry he's a big strong fully adult horse with lots of bone .
At 10% it's just over 9 and a half stone ,common sense should tell us that all nine and a half stone people not need to ride and 620 kilo horse .
I took the wieght he is when he's fit .
		
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20% of my WB weight is 18 stone - there's no way I would put that on him! 

Agree that 15% is a good guideline to use.


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## BBP (1 November 2016)

With tack I am 15% of my ponys body weight. This is the absolute most I would put on him, not because of the body weight percentage but because he is a weak horse with a tendency to go hollow and have a weak back. He also has no bone at all to him, I can nearly touch my fingers together around them. Ideally I would be lighter.






Then we have a pony who is significantly smaller (about 11hh at a guess, Dartmoor X Shetland) but everything about him is strong, he has sturdy legs at each corner and his conformation makes him much stronger for his size than my pony. We recently took him to a fun ride with a rider only a little lighter than I am. The welfare organisation running it gave us the okay to take him having checked him over and approved the combination. The rider and tack were approximately 20% of ponys body weight but he happily hacks for hours and is a total energiser bunny.


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## ycbm (1 November 2016)

I think mechanics and physics would support the idea that smaller horses can carry more. The horse is a series of levers, especially below the knee and hock when there is no muscle. My mechanic tells me that the power of a lever increases with its length (though it's a very complicated set of calculations in a horse!). So the longer the bones, the higher the forces.

So there's every reason to believe that a Shetland should be able to carry 20% of its own weight easilly, with that figure reducing as the horse increases in size.


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## TheHairyOne (1 November 2016)

Cow (the lump of lard!) says thanks to all his admirers. 

Keeping my fingers crossed for him. He managed to chip his sesamoid in the field, but so far recovery is going as well as can be hoped for.

Sadly i cant really give him away atm as this was the othee pic i had the morning after the first one to show you his weight...







Horses!!


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## Wagtail (1 November 2016)

TheHairyOne said:



			Cow (the lump of lard!) says thanks to all his admirers. 

Keeping my fingers crossed for him. He managed to chip his sesamoid in the field, but so far recovery is going as well as can be hoped for.

Sadly i cant really give him away atm as this was the othee pic i had the morning after the first one to show you his weight...







Horses!!
		
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Oops!


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## eahotson (2 November 2016)

Went to Iceland about this time last year and rode an Icelandic Horse (they are horses, try calling them anything else in Iceland!).Typically they are between  13 and 14 hands and a bit like a light weight cob in build.They are said to be able to carry up to 18 stone although the trecking centre I went to had a weight limit of 15 stone.We had about 1 and a half hours bum on saddle time.Work was walk,tolt (amazing and something I have always wanted to try) and rest breaks while the guide told us something about the landscape and geology of the place.Very interesting.All seemed fit and well.They had some still working well into their late teens early 20s.After we had dismounted in the arena and the horses were unsaddled we were told to leave the arena so the horses could have a roll before being put away.The guide told us that it was like physiotherapy for their backs.The standard of care for the horses seemed very high.
As they had so many horses they were only used about once a day on average and on long day rides in the summer,about 4 to 6 hours 4 horses would be taken for each rider so wouldn't be ridden for mor than about 1 and a half hours.


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## Wagtail (2 November 2016)

eahotson said:



			Went to Iceland about this time last year and rode an Icelandic Horse (they are horses, try calling them anything else in Iceland!).Typically they are between  13 and 14 hands and a bit like a light weight cob in build.They are said to be able to carry up to 18 stone although the trecking centre I went to had a weight limit of 15 stone.We had about 1 and a half hours bum on saddle time.Work was walk,tolt (amazing and something I have always wanted to try) and rest breaks while the guide told us something about the landscape and geology of the place.Very interesting.All seemed fit and well.They had some still working well into their late teens early 20s.After we had dismounted in the arena and the horses were unsaddled we were told to leave the arena so the horses could have a roll before being put away.The guide told us that it was like physiotherapy for their backs.The standard of care for the horses seemed very high.
As they had so many horses they were only used about once a day on average and on long day rides in the summer,about 4 to 6 hours 4 horses would be taken for each rider so wouldn't be ridden for mor than about 1 and a half hours.
		
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Sounds amazing. I'd love to try that. I have always untacked my horse in the arena after work and allowed them to roll. Problem is, my current mare likes to dig huge holes before doing so. Good job it's me who levels it!


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## stormox (2 November 2016)

The bit I find inconsistant though is that a typical TB is said to be able to carrry up to 13 stone by thiis rule. So an hour at a show carrying 13 1/2  stone is too much, but the minimum weight in an open point to point is 12st 2lbs - which is over 3 miles and approx 25 jumps possibly in heavy mud. I would think this would be much tougher.


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## Wagtail (2 November 2016)

stormox said:



			The bit I find inconsistant though is that a typical TB is said to be able to carrry up to 13 stone by thiis rule. So an hour at a show carrying 13 1/2  stone is too much, but the minimum weight in an open point to point is 12st 2lbs - which is over 3 miles and approx 25 jumps possibly in heavy mud. I would think this would be much tougher.
		
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Yes. But how many ex point to pointers are still leading active lives? I have reschooled a few, the oldest of which was only 11. They all had physical problems. Bowed tendons, kissing spines, hock arthritis...


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## Annagain (2 November 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Yes. But how many ex point to pointers are still leading active lives? I have reschooled a few, the oldest of which was only 11. They all had physical problems. Bowed tendons, kissing spines, hock arthritis...
		
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Is that because you're only getting the ones that have been retired from racing though? The fit, healthy ones are probably still out there doing it.


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## ycbm (2 November 2016)

annagain said:



			Is that because you're only getting the ones that have been retired from racing though? The fit, healthy ones are probably still out there doing it.
		
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I have friends who between them and me have had the following point to pointers and low level hurdlers:

1. Sold sound at auction at eleven.
2. Shot at five, sacroiliac strain.
3. Sold sound at five, refused to race.
4. Sold with two blown tendons at seven.
5. Sold to stud unsound at five.
6. Sold privately at five, completely unsafe on a racecourse, mental.
7. Two years off with unresolved splints, pin fired then sold from field at eleven.
8. Shot at five, joint infection from a nick on a point to point fence.
9. Sesamoid ligament tear ended racing career at three.
10. Sound but required tie back at five.

On top of those I've had a number of three year old flat racers who were all sound, those are just the jumpers owned by myself and two friends,  and all of them, no sound ones left out.


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## Goldenstar (2 November 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Yes. But how many ex point to pointers are still leading active lives? I have reschooled a few, the oldest of which was only 11. They all had physical problems. Bowed tendons, kissing spines, hock arthritis...
		
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Not alive now but my TB Ben raced from two to eight ran numerous times came to us and hunted and did all sorts of RC type stuff he was pts at 22.
My friends ex national hunt did p to p for fun and hunted into his twenties .
Another friends must be pushing 30 now was still hunting in his early twenties 
I actually can think of lots older TB's in hunting homes who are strutting there stuff as teenagers .


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## be positive (2 November 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Yes. But how many ex point to pointers are still leading active lives? I have reschooled a few, the oldest of which was only 11. They all had physical problems. Bowed tendons, kissing spines, hock arthritis...
		
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I have one here, now 12, raced extensively in Ireland, won his first p2p as a 4 year old, ran over 30 times in total winning 9, retired 21/2 years ago having broken down returned to race but not enjoying it, he has had a tie back, he bled badly when in training, had various bits injected but is having a lovely time at low level RC stuff, he is sound, barefoot, living out 24/7 until the weather turns and is a thoroughly nice person, that he is small well put together and moves freely is contributing to him finding the change of life reasonably easy, he has a talent for dressage and is now getting decent %'s every time out.


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## Wagtail (2 November 2016)

I've retrained a few ex flat racers that have been as sound as any riding horse and gone on to have useful riding careers but they have tended to be ones that haven't raced much, if at all, and have not been over jumps or hurdles. But that's just my experience. I have found however, that even the flat racers tended to be more unsound generally than other horses (kissing spines - that kind of thing). Obviously, this can't be due to weight though as flat racers tend not to carry much.


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## Fiona (2 November 2016)

My hubby's first horse was a TB who had raced over fences and p to p until he was 11 (raced about 30 times including in the summer - harder ground??).  He went on to be an intermediate eventer and was completely sound up to about 20 when he semi  retired to be a (rather lunatic) hack...  He's definitely what you would call a 'high mileage' horse...

Fiona


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## MileAMinute (2 November 2016)

I wouldn't trust a vet to advise on weight, whatsoever. 
A well respected vet in my area suggested my OH could ride my 13.3hh Welsh X pony (in walk). He was 14 stone at the time. The most I let him do was longline or lunge. He didn't go near a saddle!


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## alainax (2 November 2016)

My horse gets weighed for the first time on Saturday, I am looking forward to seeing if my guesstimate was correct, or a mile out! 

I agree that there are so many other variables to take into consideration, and plain decent horse sense trumps all rules. That being said, sometimes a clear cut off is helpful for those who are not sure.


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