# Off lead dogs



## fredders (28 March 2016)

Is it wrong to expect people with dogs running off lead not to let them run up to my dog who is on a lead and muzzled and obviously not happy with strange dogs near him. Even when I ask them not to they still let their dogs run up to him and if he goes for their dogs people seem to get the hump. I am trying to train him to focus on me rather then other dogs when we are out and this doesnt help. When he knows a dog he is fine with it. It is dogs he doesnt know that he doesnt like. I am starting to think that because people think its ok to let their dogs run up to mine that maybe its me that is in the wrong for taking him where I may see other dogs although I do try to go to reasonably quiet places. He is a small dog. Staff x jack Russell and can be quite fiesty  but that is why he is on a lead and muzzled.


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## Cinnamontoast (28 March 2016)

Where are you supposed to walk him? I have the very same issue with one of mine, he is put on lead and walked away if there are loose dogs bouncing up to him. People get aggressive and rude if I ask them to keep their dogs away. A useful technique is to shout 'leave it' and take the dog away, most people react positively by trying to get their dog away. You will still have people telling you not to walk the dog near others, who knows how you're supposed to avoid all dogs! I just had a stressy walk, litte pug X kept running over, poor recall. Painful. 

 Perhaps you could have yours focused on you for treats-only feed him on walks? I know one user on here did that.

I think some people feel very entitled and think their dog can go up to others, but this is just lack of training, IMO.


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## Goldenstar (28 March 2016)

My dad is terrible for letting his lurcher go up to other dogs .
He drives me nuts no matter how I approach it he doesn't get it , he can't understand that some people don't like it .
He walks on the beach and it's a opportunity to get to talk to people ( he uses the dog as a ice breaker to get talking to people) which he enjoys luckily his dog is completely non aggressive but I wish he would understand he needs to be a little more careful.


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## twiggy2 (28 March 2016)

I think it is really tricky as you will always get those people who shout out 'it's ok he/she is friendly', when my last bitch was in season or when she was recovering from (various surgeries) I went where there were no other dogs.
In general I think everyone shoudl be more considerate with their dogs and having yours muzzled and on lead is a good thing if the dog is aggressive, is he still aggressive if he is in the company of dogs he knows and another one comesup?
Problem is trying to deal with dog to dog conflict hen you have no control over the other dog is unlikely to get you a positive result, you need to be working with another dog and person who will do what is needed in order to try and improve your dogs social skills and confidence without the interuption of other dogs.


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## Sarah_K (28 March 2016)

I had the most wonderful walk yesterday. Why? Because it was on National Trust property where all dogs have to be on leads at all times. My pup isn't the most confident around small quiet off lead dogs and big ones bounding over have him in a panic. In the last month he's been bowled over by a boxer with no recall (no, shouting at your dog in an angry tone from over 200 yards away is not going to get him back), an attempted hump by a springer spaniel (who's owner was annoyed I'd grabbed his dog off mine by his collar) and trampled by a labradoodle. I don't want mine to become fearful of other dogs, is it really too much to ask that you and your dog are left in peace?

You aren't in the wrong OP, and have taken sensible measures. Your dog should be able to enjoy his walks as much as any other dog. Your dog is under control, their's aren't. 

Rant over for the day, If there are any National Trust properties near you with gardens etc I highly recommend going just so you can have a calm walk.If I lived closer to the one I was at yesterday, I'd be there everyday!


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## Cinnamontoast (28 March 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			My dad is terrible for letting his lurcher go up to other dogs .
He drives me nuts no matter how I approach it he doesn't get it , he can't understand that some people don't like it .
He walks on the beach and it's a opportunity to get to talk to people ( he uses the dog as a ice breaker to get talking to people) which he enjoys luckily his dog is completely non aggressive but I wish he would understand he needs to be a little more careful.
		
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That would be my worst case scenario. Zak would attack and probably injure a dog that did this. I would hate for my dog to harm another and the long lasting effect of being attacked is not good, it's what happened to Zak to make him aggressive. Doesn't matter how friendly someone's dog is, some dogs will attack. Saying that, Zak wants to be best friends afterwards, funny how they aren't interested!


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## dollyanna (28 March 2016)

I'm afraid the only way to deal with it is get tough and be assertive. I shout out as soon as I see a loose dog "Can you call your dog please" in a firm but friendly voice. If they say it's friendly, I say that's fine but mine is scared (sometimes I say he is deaf which gets a better response but I hate saying it because the deafness doesn't cause his issues and I don't want to perpetuate the myths of deaf dogs are dangerous). If they still ignore then I will shout, kick out towards/stamp at, growl at their dog until they take me seriously and come and get it, and I am not afraid to tell them that they are now breaking the law as their dog is not under control in a public place and is causing me to be fearful. 
The other useful thing is to keep a pocketful of treats, if you see a friendly dog coming towards you throw a handful hard towards them, aiming at the face - the intention is not to hurt them but to make sure they get distracted by them, most friendly dogs will stop and sniff out the food which gives you time to get safe and the owners to catch up and take control (we hope). It is less likely to work on more determined dogs but has to be worth a try.
I hate it when a lovely walk gets spoiled by someone inconsiderate, makes by blood boil, but I do always make sure I effusively thank anyone who brings their dog under control for us, whether that be putting it on lead or just keeping it close to them while we pass.


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## fredders (28 March 2016)

Thank you for your replies.thank you for the very good suggestions. Dollyanna I definatly need to be more assertive when dealing with the other dog owners. I am going to try your suggestion next time some one let their dog run up to him.
Twiggy2 he is still agressive to dogs he doesnt know even when  he is walked with dogs he likes but he never redirects his agression for the strange dog to the one he is with.i have introduced him to friends dogs that I know are friendly to try to improve his social skills and once he has walked with them a couple of times he is fine. It is strange dogs coming up he doesn't like.  I dont expect him to like every dog  but I would be happy if I  could teach him to ignore them.
Cinnamontoast that is exactly what my dog is like. It doesnt matter that the dog is friendly and wants to play If he doesnt know them. But if he does know them will walk with them fine and play  ut you do have to watch he doesn't get too excited. I dont know maybe I made him like this. I am fine with people I know but am shy and a bit wary of people I dont .


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## PucciNPoni (28 March 2016)

Drives me flippin nuts!  

I have had several occurrences of this near my house.  In order to get to a safe quite field, I have to use a pavement which is on an estate.  on this estate there always dogs running off lead.  One particular occasion four large off lead retrievers circled me with my poodles - thank god I didn't have the old terrier cos he'd have had a coronary.  I shouted on the stupid owner who had a pram and another small dog on lead.  How she was expecting to control five dogs and a baby I don't know.  But hackles were up on at least one of her dogs and I was happy to start kicking if necessary.  I cannot abide by people who can't control their dogs.  Mine were terrified. 

The other day, woman on a bike, small cavalier came galloping up to my three.  Terrier blowing his lid and the poodles getting ready to get stuck in.  I shouted at the woman that her dog was about to lose it's face.   People just don't bloody get it.


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## pippixox (28 March 2016)

I feel your pain! it is very frustrating. I have a GSD, i got aged 2 (had him 2.5 years now) who is exactly the same. he has a few dogs he knows and gets on with (varying sizes and personalities, he doesn't have a type!) but strange dogs really wind him up. from a distance he gets hyper and wines and pulls, but if they get closer he gets aggressive. If a dog is across the road he looks but is much better at keeping walking than he used to be. But paths and parks can be terrible. it is not OK to say your dog is friendly, the point is that my dog is not when put in a situation where he feels stressed. Plus you are unable to recall them effectively. 
I was at a cross country bike race the other day (OH competes) and my boy came with me. quite a lot of dogs, but on lead and at times we just had to keep out the way and avoid. but one guy let his doberman wonder around at the end while we were packing up. he kept coming over to my dog and it was hard to control him. the doberman did not get the message, had a friend trying to keep it away. owner called it a few times but did not try very hard and it ignored him


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## TheOldTrout (28 March 2016)

We had this with our Parsons. He was dreadful with other dogs when we got him - fear aggression - and it took us time to get him calmer with quiet, calm dogs. But he'd still react aggressively when large bouncy ones off the lead came charging up to him, me yelling to the other dog's owner 'he reacts really badly when other dogs charge up to him' - and their dogs would have no recall and get snarled at, with me dragging mine away before the other one got hurt. Wish I'd known then about throwing treats to stop the other dog!


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## PucciNPoni (28 March 2016)

I just don't know why I'd want to reward a dog with treats for bounding up to me?  every time you see it, it'll come charging for more?


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## twiggy2 (28 March 2016)

dollyanna said:



			The other useful thing is to keep a pocketful of treats, if you see a friendly dog coming towards you throw a handful hard towards them, aiming at the face - the intention is not to hurt them but to make sure they get distracted by them, most friendly dogs will stop and sniff out the food which gives you time to get safe and the owners to catch up and take control (we hope). It is less likely to work on more determined dogs but has to be worth a try.
		
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This is just about the best way to encourage dogs to run up to strangers!
I would rather you shouted at and waved your feet about at my dog if (unlikely ) she approached you to discourage her, not feed her and encourage her, she is also very food allergic.


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## Cinnamontoast (28 March 2016)

Id be very cross if people threw treats at my dogs, I don't like them eating stuff if I don't know what's in it. And yes, that will just encourage a dog to come back for more every time it sees you. It's very poor manners to feed a stranger's dog. Make yourself loud and angry sounding to get rid of an over friendly dog.


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## C1airey (28 March 2016)

I have the opposite problem.  We were once out walking locally when a woman was dragged over to us by her out-of-control dog.  It all started out friendly enough but I'm convinced that the owner shouting and yanking on the lead made both dogs think the other one was something to be frightened of and it ended up quite snarly.  He's now wary of dogs on leads and will growl/bark.

Incidentally, if the owner of another dog threw treats at my dog in an attempt to divert him, I'd be spitting. In fact, I'd say they deserved any problems that may then arise. Dishing out sweets isn't going to make a dog lose interest!


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## Sandstone1 (28 March 2016)

I'm not defending people who have no control over their own dogs, however, a lot of dogs are much worse on lead.
Obviously, you should be able to recall your dog away from others and if I see someone with a dog on the lead I always put mine on leads.
I do let them play with friendly dogs though. I would be very unhappy if someone threw treats at my dogs. How do you know they aren't on special diets etc? 
Also throwing treats around could easily cause a fight.


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## galaxy (28 March 2016)

It is very frustrating. My boy is friendly 99.9% of the time (there is one local dog is just hates....)

A few months ago I had him in a massive field playing ball with him and this enormous leonburger came flopping (best way to describe it! Lol) over. A massive distance..... It takes 10-15 min to walk on foot! The owner was lamely stood in the far corner calling. I saw it coming and was wary as it was the size of a Shetland pony and my boy (a gsp, not tiny) adores little dogs, but takes longer to warm to big dogs and this was huuuggge! It didn't slow on its approach and immediately started bouncing in my boys face. My boy froze, I could tell from his body language he was really uncomfortable, so I slipped his lead on and put myself between him and the enormous bouncing dog and stuck my ball thrower in its face and told it firmly to go away. Did it? No! I had to deal with this for what seemed like forever while his owner walked over (she was young enough to at least jog but didn't!). Once close enough I called that her dog was scaring my dog and he was really unhappy. She didn't even apologise and just said "he's 10 months old, it would be good for him to be told off by a dog". I bit my tongue, let her grab it and I walked off. I was furious! Why should I have had to let my boy get so uncomfortable that he would have felt the need to tell it off! And her told was twice the size, what if it had retaliated? Given the size of it I had no idea it was young, but I also now have an 11 month on and he was much better manners than that, and recall!


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## Fiona (28 March 2016)

My pup was off the lead today in a forest, and as she had got too far ahead of us running with 4yo on his bike, she ran up to an on lead golden  lab who was plainly not happy..

Hubby and I ran to retrieve  her,  and apologised.   It turned out poor lab  had been attacked  by a small dog as a pup and was v scared.  

Once Lily was on the lead, lab  was fine and sniffed her etc,  but I did feel  bad, and as forest was so busy we kept her on extending  lead just to be on the safe side..

OP I think  you are right to be miffed, and hope you can find a nice  quiet  walk that suits your needs without other  silly walkers (including  myself in this category  today  BTW  )

Fiona


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## Pinkvboots (28 March 2016)

I always put my dog on the lead if I see other dogs and I expect people to do the same, only last week someone walked past me there dog was off the lead and attacked my dog, the woman did say sorry and say she never does that, I just replied there is no such thing as never when animals are involved you just never know and suggested she put her dog on the lead in future.


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## dollyanna (28 March 2016)

Yes it is poor manners to feed someone else's dog, but it is worse manners to let them run up to a vulnerable dog without control. I only walk where we rarely meet people, and those we do we are very unlikely to meet again so I will do whatever it takes to keep my dog safe. I would not do this if I met the same dogs in a park again and again, or in a situation where the dog could return to us, but I have no qualms about it outside that. I absolutely understand dogs who need special diets, mine does and eats nothing from other people, but I'm afraid theirs is the one that is out of control so tough - either train your dog or keep it on a lead. 
You might well be unhappy if someone fed your dog but I would be more unhappy if your dog came over to mine and picked a fight, or made him feel threatened enough to have to defend himself and I'm afraid I am sick of the lack of consideration for others. TBH if you are concerned enough about this then you are not the owners of the dogs I might do it to - those are the ones who probably feed rubbish anyway. 
I have put years of work into helping my dog feel safe in the world after a very rough start, I am not prepared to let someone else's lack of control put that at risk.
It is an emergency option, and far better than me having to physically repel a dog which I have sadly had to do in the past. I always resort to growling and shouting first.


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## Cinnamontoast (28 March 2016)

Galaxy, I feel your pain! Other owners love using my dogs as training devices! When I had Brig and Jake, I was forever recalling them so some hapless owner could retrieve their untrained dog who was running after them. There's a husky owner who likes to use Brig to make her dog run round as he chases him, painful, and poor Brig wants to be left alone and can no longer outrun a younger dog. 

I remain amazed that so many owners are oblivious to the basic manners of dog walking ie don't let your dog run up to on lead dogs or dogs being trained. Don't let your dog bounce in other dogs' faces without asking if it's ok. There's a Weimaraner that came up to Zak, got told off by Bear then promptly attacked Brig. I see him, I go away! I turned up to the big park one day, it was going in, I put all the dogs back in the car and went elsewhere.

I've heard 'he's never done that before' so many times! 3 different dogs attacked all 3 of mine within a week in one park. I rarely go there anymore except on school holidays, when oddly, it's usually much quieter than usual.


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## galaxy (28 March 2016)

CT... I don't walk in parks... Ever... I find all the badly socialised/behaved dogs and owners go there. I only ever walk in the countryside. Still meet to the odd numpty as described earlier but less....

I know some people struggle with recall, I do have sympathy that noones perfect. My boy doesn't like bikes so I always have him to heel around blind corners in case one appears (even on a footpath! Grr!). But I know my radius that I can always recall my boys from anything, no matter what, some people can be slow to put their dogs on leads for example when they don't want to socialise, but I know if I am closer to my boys than anything else they will always recall when asked. But then, my dogs are always near me on walks, I don't let them wander off out of sight etc... But that's another moan!


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## Sarah_K (28 March 2016)

cinnamontoast said:



			<SNIP> I've heard 'he's never done that before' so many times! 3 different dogs attacked all 3 of mine within a week in one park. I rarely go there anymore except on school holidays, when oddly, it's usually much quieter than usual.
		
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Also "S/He's only a puppy" Yep, it's a puppy. Perfect time to teach it recall and manners before it gets any bigger and more boisterous.


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## Cinnamontoast (29 March 2016)

Galaxy, I can't take the youngsters anywhere exciting. In the woods, there are muntjac (bye bye boys overnight) and Zak can't be off lead with other dogs.  It's a bit limiting! He needs to be somewhere with a flat field and a ball/dummy. 



Sarah_K said:



			Also "S/He's only a puppy" Yep, it's a puppy. Perfect time to teach it recall and manners before it gets any bigger and more boisterous.
		
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That leonberger story would have terrified me, a huge young dog, untrained, no manners, would have been horrible. My dog is not a training device!


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## fredders (29 March 2016)

Yeah I have had people say either 'hes good with other dogs. Hes only playing.' When my dog is clearly going crazy or say 'its ok he needs telling off' or not say anything at all. Doesnt call the dog. Lets it do what ever it wants. I rarely take him to parks now because so often people take one step inside the park gates and let their dogs off to run around wherever they want  not careing if there are on lead dogs nearby or not. I dont mind if they leave my dog alone but they quite ofte n dont and every bad interaction makes him worse. They would soon moan if he wasnt muzzled and bit their dog


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## Country_gal (29 March 2016)

I sympathise.  I have 2 whippets who are the friendliest dog in the world and one has great recall (the other - not so much) but as soon as I see another dog approaching I call them in and hold them until passed if the other dog is on the lead.  I know they are friendly and only want to say Hi or play but the other person does not and may have a reactive dog.  having been the owner of a rescue lurcher who HATED strange dogs running up to her and would snap at them  I know how frustrating it can be!  Luckily as I am in a small village most of the dog owners all know each other so I know what dogs are friendly with mine and can say hi etc.  I have found a great spot on the local beach recently.  you have to walk over some of the small rocky bits to get to it but its a wonderful big open space of wet sand so it is great to take the dogs for a good run as there is never anyone there (don't think they want to cross the rocks and small pools)


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## Sarah_K (29 March 2016)

cinnamontoast said:



			Galaxy, I can't take the youngsters anywhere exciting. In the woods, there are muntjac (bye bye boys overnight) and Zak can't be off lead with other dogs.  It's a bit limiting! He needs to be somewhere with a flat field and a ball/dummy. 

That leonberger story would have terrified me, a huge young dog, untrained, no manners, would have been horrible. My dog is not a training device!
		
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Ah sorry, didn't mean that people should use other's dogs as a training device but should use the time when they are pups to teach manners and recall in a suitable environment e.g. puppy classes in a safe enclosed area.

I'd have prob needed a change of underwear if I saw a Leonburger bearing down on me!


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## Nightingale (29 March 2016)

I don't think I've ever seen such a disheartening thread on here. People with aggressive or unfriendly dogs (so we must assume therefore inadequately or not entirely trained to be sociable) blaming owners of other inadequately trained friendly animals because they haven't adequately taught their dog to be unsociable.
Surely the aim with an anti-social dog is to train it to mix with other dogs as quickly as possible. So that you don't have to go through the stress you currently inflict on yourself and your dog on every walk.  If the local park isn't the place to do this, for whatever reason, find somewhere that is. There are loads of behaviour classes etc around. Sadly, you can't expect to change the behaviour of everyone else's dog, but you are certainly responsible for your own. 
As for the person who advised 'get more assertive, start shouting and stamping'. What sort of message does that send to the poor dog (already feeling vulnerable having had all its natural behavioural reflexes restricted by a leash and muzzle)?  It send the message that there's something to be afraid of and that aggression is the required response. Madness.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (29 March 2016)

Nightingale said:



			I don't think I've ever seen such a disheartening thread on here. People with aggressive or unfriendly dogs (so we must assume therefore inadequately or not entirely trained to be sociable) blaming owners of other inadequately trained friendly animals because they haven't adequately taught their dog to be unsociable.
Surely the aim with an anti-social dog is to train it to mix with other dogs as quickly as possible. So that you don't have to go through the stress you currently inflict on yourself and your dog on every walk.  If the local park isn't the place to do this, for whatever reason, find somewhere that is. There are loads of behaviour classes etc around. Sadly, you can't expect to change the behaviour of everyone else's dog, but you are certainly responsible for your own. 
As for the person who advised 'get more assertive, start shouting and stamping'. What sort of message does that send to the poor dog (already feeling vulnerable having had all its natural behavioural reflexes restricted by a leash and muzzle)?  It send the message that there's something to be afraid of and that aggression is the required response. Madness.
		
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Yup, but having uncontrolled dogs in a public place is also madness and against the law...... why should anyone HAVE to 'put up' with a non-trained dog which cannot recall or obey simple commands from its useless owner?

OP, why not print out the relevant section of the law?
Our local dog warden has small cigarette pack-sized cards he hands out in the car park or whilst walking.
It works - lots now walk their dogs on lead or long leads or actually call their dogs back. 
The actual 'seeing the fine of ££'s on paper' can make you double think..............


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## PucciNPoni (29 March 2016)

Nightingale said:



			I don't think I've ever seen such a disheartening thread on here. People with aggressive or unfriendly dogs (so we must assume therefore inadequately or not entirely trained to be sociable) blaming owners of other inadequately trained friendly animals because they haven't adequately taught their dog to be unsociable.
Surely the aim with an anti-social dog is to train it to mix with other dogs as quickly as possible. So that you don't have to go through the stress you currently inflict on yourself and your dog on every walk.  If the local park isn't the place to do this, for whatever reason, find somewhere that is. There are loads of behaviour classes etc around. Sadly, you can't expect to change the behaviour of everyone else's dog, but you are certainly responsible for your own. 
As for the person who advised 'get more assertive, start shouting and stamping'. What sort of message does that send to the poor dog (already feeling vulnerable having had all its natural behavioural reflexes restricted by a leash and muzzle)?  It send the message that there's something to be afraid of and that aggression is the required response. Madness.
		
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My dogs aren't anti social, but they don't take too kindly to an un controlled off lead dog running at their faces.  THAT behaviour is antisocial in itself.  

I am a professional dog handler as a groomer.  I go to training.  I do a lot of training with my dogs.  I'm sorry, but anyone who allows their dog to run off at other dogs isn't training their dog. 

I work in a busy town on a high street.  There's a chap that has three (now four, has a young pup).  All retrievers and springers.  Never on lead.  NEVER EVER out of control.  I would (and have) walk any one or any combination of my dogs in amongst his dogs because I know they aren't going to pester mine.  

It's bad enough that I have to seek quiet fields to run my dogs, and I do so.  But I still have to get TO them. I have an elderly dog - do I need to take him to training classes?  No - we've been there and done that.  I've discovered it's not HIM that's the problem it's in fact other people's mismanagement of THEIR dogs that is.


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## PucciNPoni (29 March 2016)

There's a woman I work with who has a rescue dog - he's a lovely lad but he is reactive.  She's not exactly the best handler but she has worked hard and has had behaviour sessions with him and he is well exercised.  She is however TERRIFIED to walk him where there are lots of off lead dogs because while he is fine like 80% of the time, there's another 20% where he reacts.  And she avoids parks where there are lots of kids, and avoids busy areas and her life is spent trying to fix this problem and then avoiding anything that might make him react.  Dog ownership is a big responsibility and she is taking hers seriously but sometimes due to other people who CBA with their own responsibility it ruins it for her.


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## MotherOfChickens (29 March 2016)

Nightingale said:



			I don't think I've ever seen such a disheartening thread on here. People with aggressive or unfriendly dogs (so we must assume therefore inadequately or not entirely trained to be sociable) blaming owners of other inadequately trained friendly animals because they haven't adequately taught their dog to be unsociable.
		
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both of my dogs are very well socialised although I can only take the credit for one of those. He's somewhat elderly and I do not want him bowled over or jumped on by the completely out of control setter x pointer we met the other week, or the local dog walker's thug of a lab either and I am very rural. The bitch is quite capable of looking after herself.


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## galaxy (29 March 2016)

Nightingale said:



			I don't think I've ever seen such a disheartening thread on here. People with aggressive or unfriendly dogs (so we must assume therefore inadequately or not entirely trained to be sociable) blaming owners of other inadequately trained friendly animals because they haven't adequately taught their dog to be unsociable.
Surely the aim with an anti-social dog is to train it to mix with other dogs as quickly as possible. So that you don't have to go through the stress you currently inflict on yourself and your dog on every walk.  If the local park isn't the place to do this, for whatever reason, find somewhere that is. There are loads of behaviour classes etc around. Sadly, you can't expect to change the behaviour of everyone else's dog, but you are certainly responsible for your own. 
As for the person who advised 'get more assertive, start shouting and stamping'. What sort of message does that send to the poor dog (already feeling vulnerable having had all its natural behavioural reflexes restricted by a leash and muzzle)?  It send the message that there's something to be afraid of and that aggression is the required response. Madness.
		
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Err.... My dogs are very well socialised and friendly, my boy was actually off lead and having a lovely time with me when the leonburger gate crashed. The leonburgers behaviour was exceptionally rude, why should I expect my boy to just be ok with that? He probably felt he was going to be flattened!!

Having a leonburger run over isn't very "scary" actually, their action is kind of comical! Lol! The fact the owner had no control and it terrified me dog was the bit that annoyed the heck out of me.


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## {97702} (29 March 2016)

Interesting thread - my OH was walking my 4 greyhounds today (on lead) and 2 dogs ran up to him and began behaving aggressively towards my dogs, my big greyhound doesn't like any other dogs particularly small ones so splatted the small dogs.  Another of my four joined in.  Is this my dogs fault or the other dogs fault?


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## fredders (29 March 2016)

Nightingale said:



			I don't think I've ever seen such a disheartening thread on here. People with aggressive or unfriendly dogs (so we must assume therefore inadequately or not entirely trained to be sociable) blaming owners of other inadequately trained friendly animals because they haven't adequately taught their dog to be unsociable.
Surely the aim with an anti-social dog is to train it to mix with other dogs as quickly as possible. So that you don't have to go through the stress you currently inflict on yourself and your dog on every walk.  If the local park isn't the place to do this, for whatever reason, find somewhere that is. There are loads of behaviour classes etc around. Sadly, you can't expect to change the behaviour of everyone else's dog, but you are certainly responsible for your own. 
As for the person who advised 'get more assertive, start shouting and stamping'. What sort of message does that send to the poor dog (already feeling vulnerable having had all its natural behavioural reflexes restricted by a leash and muzzle)?  It send the message that there's something to be afraid of and that aggression is the required response. Madness.
		
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I know my dogs behaviour is far from ideal.  I am in the process of trying to train him to ignore other dogs coming up to him and focus on me. He is getting better. He will walk well with quiet calm dogs  but still gets upset if bouncy uncontrolled dogs run up to him. My friend who is a dog trainer helps me and she said is possible he will always react to strange dogs running up to him. I started put a muzzle on him because of people  letting  their dogs just run up to him. I know he would maybe less reactive not on the lead but I am not prepared to put him in a position where he could have a serious fight


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## Nightingale (29 March 2016)

Yes, I agree, no one should have to 'put up' with a badly trained dog with no recall but it's a sad fact of life that if you frequent popular dog walking areas, that's what you're gonna find. It's like other people's awfully behaved kids or drivers who don't indicate - they're always gonna be there &#8211; and they don&#8217;t care -  you can't change that.  The best you can do is train your own dog to the best of your ability to cope with what stupid owners throw at him. And I am not talking about aggressive vicious dogs on the attack &#8211; that&#8217;s different, just those hyperactive friendly ones that make a right nuisance of themselves. 
And I know all about those because I had one. A rescue who had many behavioural issues and wasn&#8217;t socialised when I got him but was energetic and active enough to need miles of off-lead walks. We avoided the regular dog walking haunts for years but for different reasons from those PuccinPoni mentions &#8211; because we were that &#8216;in your face&#8217; annoying hound everyone is moaning about and I didn&#8217;t want to inconvenience anyone. 
And as our training progressed (it took so long and was such hard work) and we started to frequent more public areas, sometimes the recall was great and sometimes it failed me.  But what kept me going was the lovely fellow dog walkers who offered encouragement and help and swapped tips. Thankfully I didn&#8217;t meet too many of those who advocated shouting and stamping and growling and throwing things at my dog or reciting the letter of the law to me (there were a few,wand yes, they hurt). 
So after all the hard work that PuccinPoni talks about, I now have a lovely well-behaved boy who is friendly, sociable and kind to all other dogs he meets. At last, he always comes back when he is called and now that he is old and grumpy if we meet an exuberant youngster or &#8216;in your face, out of control type&#8217; he tolerates it until he&#8217;s had enough and then sends it away with a clear but harmless message that other dogs seem to understand. 
It just saddens me that, in general, the theme seems to be that it&#8217;s everyone else&#8217;s fault. It&#8217;s always the other dog or their owner to blame. Everyone seems so quick to judge and criticise. There was someone on here who said &#8216;my dog&#8217;s not a training aid&#8217;. Well my dog is. And I am so proud that after all his problems he is now able to interact sensibly and calmly with dogs of varying temperaments and I shamelessly &#8216;use&#8217; his good manners to help other owners we meet who are struggling in the same way that I did. 
Of course there are people who don&#8217;t take responsibility for the behaviour of their own dogs, but the fact is you will never change them &#8211; you can shout and stamp and throw food all you like, it won&#8217;t make any difference.   All you can do is avoid them (tricky) or try to remain calm and do your best to make sure your dog knows how to cope with them.


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## Cinnamontoast (29 March 2016)

Nightingale said:



			I don't think I've ever seen such a disheartening thread on here. People with aggressive or unfriendly dogs (so we must assume therefore inadequately or not entirely trained to be sociable) blaming owners of other inadequately trained friendly animals because they haven't adequately taught their dog to be unsociable.
Surely the aim with an anti-social dog is to train it to mix with other dogs as quickly as possible. So that you don't have to go through the stress you currently inflict on yourself and your dog on every walk.  If the local park isn't the place to do this, for whatever reason, find somewhere that is. There are loads of behaviour classes etc around. Sadly, you can't expect to change the behaviour of everyone else's dog, but you are certainly responsible for your own.
		
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My very DA dog is very friendly-once he's tried to kill anything that bounces in his face. He has been to puppy class, then was fine til he was attacked, then had hour upon hour of training with other dogs, one to one, everything. Mine is extremely well trained, it's all I do with him on walks. 

Other owners being unable to recall their dog is a huge problem and I do not expect other dogs to have to be antisocial, I just want them to stay away from mine. I have the right to be left in peace on walks and yes, it is the owner's fault for not teaching their dog to have manners/a decent recall. It's ridiculously common to have out of control dogs running up to us. I had to put Zak on the lead today when two beagles came pelting over, owners miles away. He would have stayed in a sit, but I don't want to risk an incident if they came too close. My walks are frequently interrupted by rude dogs and yes, clueless owners who have never done a minute's training with their 'oh, he's just friendly' dog. 



PucciNPoni said:



			My dogs aren't anti social, but they don't take too kindly to an un controlled off lead dog running at their faces.  THAT behaviour is antisocial in itself.  

It's bad enough that I have to seek quiet fields to run my dogs, and I do so.  But I still have to get TO them. I have an elderly dog - do I need to take him to training classes?  No - we've been there and done that.  I've discovered it's not HIM that's the problem it's in fact other people's mismanagement of THEIR dogs that is.
		
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Exactly. I have zero problems with Zak being surrounded by other dogs, he is not the problem, they are when they come running over and haven't learnt manners or been taught them. None of my three run up to other dogs. They socialise with each other and aren't interested in other dogs. 



PucciNPoni said:



			There's a woman I work with who has a rescue dog - he's a lovely lad but he is reactive.  She's not exactly the best handler but she has worked hard and has had behaviour sessions with him and he is well exercised.  She is however TERRIFIED to walk him where there are lots of off lead dogs because while he is fine like 80% of the time, there's another 20% where he reacts.  And she avoids parks where there are lots of kids, and avoids busy areas and her life is spent trying to fix this problem and then avoiding anything that might make him react.  Dog ownership is a big responsibility and she is taking hers seriously but sometimes due to other people who CBA with their own responsibility it ruins it for her.
		
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I sympathise hugely. Other owners who CBA to train their dogs are my biggest trauma. Very stressful, the last few days, having to walk my lot on my own, particularly as I physically can't run away.


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## SusieT (29 March 2016)

I dont meet all these horrible other owners some people seem to attract... at our park off lead dogs walk past each other, on lead dogs -other dogs are put on leads or called to close control... rarely is there an out of ocntrol one and tolerance is practised..
And aggressive dogs, under control or not walk with muzzles for safety!


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## Amymay (29 March 2016)

SusieT said:



			I dont meet all these horrible other owners some people seem to attract... at our park off lead dogs walk past each other, on lead dogs -other dogs are put on leads or called to close control... rarely is there an out of ocntrol one and tolerance is practised..
		
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Ditto. Maybe it's where I live, but thankfully if we do meet other dogs there's never any issues. They either ignore each other or just have a whale of a time.


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## Nightingale (29 March 2016)

Thank god! Same here. Most people in our park are so supportive and all the dogs mingle happily off lead. Of course, there is the occasional spat, but the dogs sort it out amongst themselves and there is no need for hysteria or shouting. In our local park everyone is lovey and we all encourage off-lead interaction. The puppies or newcomers
 learn fast and most people are quite relaxed about how dogs establish a pecking order among themselves. It really does make for a much more enjoyable and laid-back dog-walking experience!


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## I.M.N. (30 March 2016)

You can train your dog every hour of the day till you're blue in the face, but the one thing you can never train your dog is how to dog, this is what dogs teach each other, and this ridiculously sterile environment dogs are expected to exist in nowadays is what I believe has lead to all these "reactive" dogs. 

I have a GSD who likes to say hello to every dog we meet, he is slightly nervous so has all his hackles up (ears to tail, long haired) for most meetings, if the other dog is off the lead he knows he's allowed to say hello if it's on lead he knows he has to walk past. He never bounds, he just ambles along, if he ends up saying hello to the other dog in a way the dog doesn't like (usually too much bottom sniffing) the other dog tells him so and then they carry on their interaction with mine now understanding the boundaries of the new dog, this is not me using someone else's dog to train mine, this is someone else's dog teaching mine something only dogs can teach each other. Due to him being a GSD most people look ready to pick their dogs up and run (some actually do), however I will not alter how I handle him due to other peoples ill informed judgements as I refuse to have a dog that's never allowed to dog. I suspect most people would have me stick mine on a lead every time I get a hint of a dog on the horizon just in case he has the audacity to want to interact with his own species.


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## Cinnamontoast (30 March 2016)

I'm jealous of these other lovely owners! One lab used to attack Jake, every single time. Jake was very submissive. The final straw was when he was on lead after a cruciate op. The owner told me to walk elsewhere because her dog attacked mine. Curious. 

I can let two of mine mix but Zak cannot mix, it's not fair on other dogs and if I muzzle him, he can't retrieve. There has been two minor spats in about four years. Dogs should be dogs, I agree, but Zak socialises with his own pack and no, I don't think it's a good idea to let him tell off other dogs, he goes way too far.


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## fredders (30 March 2016)

I dont take him to a busy park and expect everyone to keep their dogs away from him. I do take him to quiet places and keep my distance if I see a dog he doesn't know. He does get to socialise with other dogs. There are about 7 or 8 dogs he knows that he is fine with. I know dogs sometimes ignore their owners and come running up  but if the owner catches it or calls it away its not a problem.  Its when they come up to my dog and do nothing. Letting their dog do what ever it wants even though my dog is clearly unhappy. He will socalize if introduced to others in a calm controlled way. I realize he is not a  normal dog and be is better then he was but I dont think he ever will be completely normal. He was socialized as a puppy. Came everywhere with me and went to puppy and training classes but he got scared a few times by other dogs when he was older. I really do wish he was more friendly to other dogs. It would make life so much easier. Hes not a bad dog .


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## PucciNPoni (30 March 2016)

I.M.N. said:



			You can train your dog every hour of the day till you're blue in the face, but the one thing you can never train your dog is how to dog, this is what dogs teach each other, and this ridiculously sterile environment dogs are expected to exist in nowadays is what I believe has lead to all these "reactive" dogs. 

I have a GSD who likes to say hello to every dog we meet, he is slightly nervous so has all his hackles up (ears to tail, long haired) for most meetings, if the other dog is off the lead he knows he's allowed to say hello if it's on lead he knows he has to walk past. He never bounds, he just ambles along, if he ends up saying hello to the other dog in a way the dog doesn't like (usually too much bottom sniffing) the other dog tells him so and then they carry on their interaction with mine now understanding the boundaries of the new dog, this is not me using someone else's dog to train mine, this is someone else's dog teaching mine something only dogs can teach each other. Due to him being a GSD most people look ready to pick their dogs up and run (some actually do), however I will not alter how I handle him due to other peoples ill informed judgements as I refuse to have a dog that's never allowed to dog. I suspect most people would have me stick mine on a lead every time I get a hint of a dog on the horizon just in case he has the audacity to want to interact with his own species.
		
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I have my OWN small pack in which to teach each other, and I go to organised training and I do have plenty of occasions in which to socialise my dogs.  But the last thing I want is to have to stop and socialise with every dog on the road when we're doing a fitness walk or trying to get from A to B.  

I actually had my two better behaved dogs on leads, young show bitch and the veteran poodle - four big retrievers came up out of no where, one with hackles up.  Owner way down the road.  I'm next to a road.  I had to stop so they didn't follow me across the road that I was about to cross. Sorry, this is not acceptable behaviour in my opinion.  Have a dog be a dog fair enough.  But don't allow it to interfere with other people.  It's like having a child who can't sit in it's chair at a restaurant because mummy and daddy don't think they should interfere with the child from being a child, so allow the child to wander over to other people and go and chit chat or play under their table.


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## PucciNPoni (30 March 2016)

fredders said:



			I dont take him to a busy park and expect everyone to keep their dogs away from him. I do take him to quiet places and keep my distance if I see a dog he doesn't know. He does get to socialise with other dogs. There are about 7 or 8 dogs he knows that he is fine with. I know dogs sometimes ignore their owners and come running up  but if the owner catches it or calls it away its not a problem.  Its when they come up to my dog and do nothing. Letting their dog do what ever it wants even though my dog is clearly unhappy. He will socalize if introduced to others in a calm controlled way. I realize he is not a  normal dog and be is better then he was but I dont think he ever will be completely normal. He was socialized as a puppy. Came everywhere with me and went to puppy and training classes but he got scared a few times by other dogs when he was older. I really do wish he was more friendly to other dogs. It would make life so much easier. Hes not a bad dog .
		
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Exactly - I don't go to the dog park on busy weekends and expect everyone to behave the same way I do or expect the dogs to not want to interact.  I don't do it at the beach either.  BUt if I'm walking three dogs on leads by myself and get accosted by some eeejit's playful unruly dog while i'm just walking past on a pavement I think that's really unfortunate...so it makes me really think about when and where I take my dogs and how I get them there.


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