# Rearing horse



## Freck.19 (23 June 2020)

I’ve had my new mare less than a week, I went to try her out and she was perfect, the owners were very nice and also told me all her good and bad points - including her napping, rearing! On my second viewing for her she did actually rear with me, 3 in a row, but I sat them all and they weren’t that big. They have assured me that the horse has been turned inside out and there are no health issues, It’s just a learned bad habit. She’s 14 and has got away with it for many years.
So she’s been home and settled, and today I took her out her first hack! She was an angel, but she ended up dragging me into a massive field wanting to take off! She didn’t, but every time I tried to turn her back she rested, and the rears got bigger and bigger, she done about 5. I was really scared, she’s the first horse I’ve ever dealt with that rears. Luckily my boyfriend was on hand to clip a lead rope to her and then she was fine.

what should I do? It’s made me lose my confidence a little bit. ☹️


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## doodle (23 June 2020)

You bought a horse that reared at the viewing and you were told rears? Horse comes home and rears? Surely you should not have bought horse if it bothered you that much.


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## SaddlePsych'D (23 June 2020)

I can't advise at all, but for others who can - how were the previous investigations evidenced by the previous owner? Did you have any reports/info from vet?


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## Freck.19 (23 June 2020)

Kamikaze said:



			You bought a horse that reared at the viewing and you were told rears? Horse comes home and rears? Surely you should not have bought horse if it bothered you that much.
		
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Thanks for your sarcastic, unhelpful comment. It doesn’t bother me that much that it made me not buy her, as I think I can work through it. I’d just appreciate some helpful answers/ tips or people with experience dealing with this.


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## Freck.19 (23 June 2020)

SaddlePsych'D said:



			I can't advise at all, but for others who can - how were the previous investigations evidenced by the previous owner? Did you have any reports/info from vet?
		
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Yes references from the vet, yard owner and riding instructor.


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## Chinchilla (23 June 2020)

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## Chinchilla (23 June 2020)

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## Freck.19 (23 June 2020)

Chinchilla said:



			I'm assuming previous owners had the horse checked for ulcers, KS etc, tack fit checked, dentist got out, etc.? If not; get that all done, and if it comes back okay get a professional to ride the horse.
		
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It is a learned bad habit. Not pain. It’s all been checked.


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## Chinchilla (23 June 2020)

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## Freck.19 (23 June 2020)

Chinchilla said:



			Get a professional involved if it's knocking your confidence then. Either to watch you ride and give advice on how to manage the horse add as things happen and/or to ride the horse themselves.
		
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Ok, thank you so much.


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## ycbm (23 June 2020)

How much of the horse has been xrayed? Has she been put through a scintigraph?

My bet is that this horse is in pain somewhere and it just hasn't yet been found.  

Unless you are prepared to investigate further,  I would advise you either sell or have her PTS before she seriously injures or kills you.   Rearers are very dangerous.

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## doodle (23 June 2020)

You are welcome. 

I just don’t understand why you would buy a horse you know rears. You don’t know how to deal with the rears, which is why you are asking on here, and say it has dented your confidence in the first ride.     As ycbm says either sell or pts before you are hurt. Or send back to sellers. Rearing is not a game.


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## Lillian_paddington (23 June 2020)

Honestly, I would send the horse back. The owners have at least been truthful about the horse’s behaviour so hopefully they will take her back if finding the right home is important. 
I agree with ycbm that it is most likely pain somewhere, you say she’s had all the checks done but what does that mean? A simple lameness work up is not enough. This horse could end up being very expensive if you have to go through more diagnostics. 
And if it really is learned behaviour I still don’t think this is the right horse for you. Sitting to a rear properly is a skill and if you unbalance her she could end up falling on top of you. I will ride pretty much anything but a big rearer, it isn’t worth my life frankly. 
There will be other horses out there much better suited to you. Horse owning is so much more fun when you trust the horse to look after you.


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## stormox (23 June 2020)

I had a mare that reared. Straight up and down again.  She had been made to hack alone before she was confident, and learnt to do it at scary things. and her rider had always got off or turned her home.
She mainly did it hacking alone, she was fine with other horses to take the lead when needed.
I managed it by using draw reins attached to the side Ds. , I had them knotted on her neck, and if she started the big eyes head up behaviour which preceeded a rear I immediately turned her in sharp circles with the draw reins as extra power if needed (Im 7stone, she was a hefty 16.2). A horse cannot rear while its crossing its hind legs to circle.
After a few turns I really kicked her forwards  in the direction I wanted to go. It took about 2 months of this and she became an angel to hack alone or in company with no extra gadgets.
She never scared me but she did once have me off at the beginning by rearing and I slid over the cantle and landed standing on the ground behind her tail, still holding  the rein buckle and my feet still in the irons (which had also come off). It was after that I put the draw reins on and we had no more trouble when she realised what she had to do and the scary things werent really scary.
Good Luck - patience perseverance and a forward thinking attitude is needed.


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## oldie48 (23 June 2020)

Poor you, you must feel very worried. YCMB is right that many horses that rear are in pain and are potentially dangerous, but not all of them are. Get some good experienced pro involved, her previous owner told you that she napped and my mare will too if given the chance.Your horse is still settling in and finding her feet so get help now. We've had several nappy horses that had no physic\al issues, generally they were young and insecure so benefitted from being ridden  in company until they were ready to go it alone. Just get help but inform the seller that you are unhappy and may need to return her as she might not be the right horse for you.


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## Wishfilly (23 June 2020)

oldie48 said:



			Poor you, you must feel very worried. YCMB is right that many horses that rear are in pain and are potentially dangerous, but not all of them are. Get some good experienced pro involved, her previous owner told you that she napped and my mare will too if given the chance.Your horse is still settling in and finding her feet so get help now. We've had several nappy horses that had no physic\al issues, generally they were young and insecure so benefitted from being ridden  in company until they were ready to go it alone. Just get help but inform the seller that you are unhappy and may need to return her as she might not be the right horse for you.
		
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I'm not sure if I'm misreading your post, and if I am, then I'm sorry, but I think even horses who don't rear due to pain have the potential to be really dangerous if the behaviour either escalates, or with a rider who has the potential to unbalance them.


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## ycbm (23 June 2020)

I'm not sure why people are taking about returning this horse. She was sold in good faith with full disclosure,  there is no basis whatsoever that I can see to return her to the seller.

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## Freck.19 (23 June 2020)

stormox said:



			I had a mare that reared. Straight up and down again.  She had been made to hack alone before she was confident, and learnt to do it at scary things. and her rider had always got off or turned her home.
She mainly did it hacking alone, she was fine with other horses to take the lead when needed.
I managed it by using draw reins attached to the side Ds. , I had them knotted on her neck, and if she started the big eyes head up behaviour which preceeded a rear I immediately turned her in sharp circles with the draw reins as extra power if needed (Im 7stone, she was a hefty 16.2). A horse cannot rear while its crossing its hind legs to circle.
After a few turns I really kicked her forwards  in the direction I wanted to go. It took about 2 months of this and she became an angel to hack alone or in company with no extra gadgets.
She never scared me but she did once have me off at the beginning by rearing and I slid over the cantle and landed standing on the ground behind her tail, still holding  the rein buckle and my feet still in the irons (which had also come off). It was after that I put the draw reins on and we had no more trouble when she realised what she had to do and the scary things werent really scary.
Good Luck - patience perseverance and a forward thinking attitude is needed.
		
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Thank you so so much! That’s exactly what my mare is like, she has been such an angel to hack out with another horse and in the school, but she was spooking at something today and when she gets stressed, she does this! Also to get her own way, like your mares last owner, my mares last owner also got off which is why she knows she can get away with it to avoid work. She isn’t in any pain and she’s not getting pts!


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## Wishfilly (23 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			I'm not sure why people are taking about returning this horse. She was sold on good faith with full disclosure,  there is no basis whatsoever that I can see to return her to the seller.

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I agree- I'm assuming it's a private seller from OP's post, although I might be wrong, in which case they may not be in a position to have her back even if they were willing to. I also think if OP wants to return, she needs to explore the possibility ASAP, and not string the seller along in any way.


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## Freck.19 (23 June 2020)

stormox said:



			I had a mare that reared. Straight up and down again.  She had been made to hack alone before she was confident, and learnt to do it at scary things. and her rider had always got off or turned her home.
She mainly did it hacking alone, she was fine with other horses to take the lead when needed.
I managed it by using draw reins attached to the side Ds. , I had them knotted on her neck, and if she started the big eyes head up behaviour which preceeded a rear I immediately turned her in sharp circles with the draw reins as extra power if needed (Im 7stone, she was a hefty 16.2). A horse cannot rear while its crossing its hind legs to circle.
After a few turns I really kicked her forwards  in the direction I wanted to go. It took about 2 months of this and she became an angel to hack alone or in company with no extra gadgets.
She never scared me but she did once have me off at the beginning by rearing and I slid over the cantle and landed standing on the ground behind her tail, still holding  the rein buckle and my feet still in the irons (which had also come off). It was after that I put the draw reins on and we had no more trouble when she realised what she had to do and the scary things werent really scary.
Good Luck - patience perseverance and a forward thinking attitude is needed.
		
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I accidentally quoted the wrong person To reply to you sorry.


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## Pearlsasinger (23 June 2020)

Were you hacking alone?  It could be a confidence problem on her part, I would hack with a sensible companion next time, or lead her  round most of the route and hop on to ride the last part home and build up from there.


But you did know what you were buying from a private seller so I doubt that you would be able to return the horse, unless the seller is feeling extremely generous.


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## Freck.19 (23 June 2020)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Were you hacking alone?  It could be a confidence problem on her part, I would hack with a sensible companion next time, or lead her  round most of the route and hop on to ride the last part home and build up from there.
		
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Yes she was hacking alone, I feel more confident hacking alone as my only other option will be to hack out with a 5 year old horse who’s really not sensible and highly strung! He will egg her on and make her worse - what he used to do with my last horse!


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## ycbm (23 June 2020)

Freck you haven't answered my question  about how much of the horse has been xrayed and whether she has been put through a scintigraph (bone scan).

?


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## Wishfilly (23 June 2020)

Freck.19 said:



			Yes she was hacking alone, I feel more confident hacking alone as my only other option will be to hack out with a 5 year old horse who’s really not sensible and highly strung! He will egg her on and make her worse - what he used to do with my last horse!
		
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This honestly may not be the case- I know a rearer who only does it when alone or forced to leave the group, regardless of how silly the company are being. However, obviously you should only do what you feel comfortable with.


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## splashgirl45 (23 June 2020)

she has only been with you for a week ,  that is no time at all , she is unlikely to be settled even though she may appear to be. many horses shut down when they are unsettled and give the appearance of being settled.  i would suggest you dont pick an argument with her and have someone come out with you, either walking or on a bike for the next few times you hack out, just having someone on the ground will relax you as well..the only way i have dealt with a rearer is to keep turning in circles . if no one can come out with you could you long rein her round the hack you would do, sorry dont have any other suggestions..good luck


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## Shilasdair (23 June 2020)

Freck.19 said:



			I’ve had my new mare less than a week, I went to try her out and she was perfect, the owners were very nice and also told me all her good and bad points - including her napping, rearing! On my second viewing for her she did actually rear with me, 3 in a row, but I sat them all and they weren’t that big. They have assured me that the horse has been turned inside out and there are no health issues, It’s just a learned bad habit. She’s 14 and has got away with it for many years.
So she’s been home and settled, and today I took her out her first hack! She was an angel, but she ended up dragging me into a massive field wanting to take off! She didn’t, but every time I tried to turn her back she rested, and the rears got bigger and bigger, she done about 5. I was really scared, she’s the first horse I’ve ever dealt with that rears. Luckily my boyfriend was on hand to clip a lead rope to her and then she was fine.

what should I do? It’s made me lose my confidence a little bit. ☹️
		
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I don't think you have a right to return her, as the sellers were honest, and you chose to take the horse knowing it reared.
This was a bad choice, but I guess you know that now.  

You have a number of options;
1. Beg the sellers to take her back, admit that you are not as confident as you made out and are now scared of her.
2. Spend a small fortune doing veterinary investigations to find out if anything is wrong.
2. Retire her to be a field ornament.
3. Put her to sleep.
4. Sell her to someone braver/stupider than you.
5. Send her to a trainer.  I suspect that, even if the trainer can ride her through it, you'll have the same rearing when you get back on anyway.
6. Learn strategies to ride a rearer.   For example, a horse can only rear with its head and neck straight, so a way to block her actually going up is to circle her in a tight circle.  Use your legs, make the circle tight enough that she can't go up.  Stop and ask her to go forward.  If she looks like going up, circle again.

Good luck - I think you'll need it as a 14 year old is pretty much established in the behaviour.


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## Shilasdair (23 June 2020)

Clearly I can't count.


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## honetpot (23 June 2020)

Freck.19 said:



			Thanks for your sarcastic, unhelpful comment. It doesn’t bother me that much that it made me not buy her, as I think I can work through it. I’d just appreciate some helpful answers/ tips or people with experience dealing with this.
		
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I think no one is being sarcastic, you said it was a habit with her and the old phrase ‘ trying it on ‘ springs to mind and she is clever enough that she has worked out she can frightened you. 
I can not fathom why you would by a horse known to nap and rear, unless it’s a super star at competitions, because both are evasions, for what ever reason and the fact it took you in to a field, possibleLy has no steering.
 If you are going to keep it  you need to be on a yard with good help before you get injured.


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## stormox (23 June 2020)

Freck.19 said:



			Yes she was hacking alone, I feel more confident hacking alone as my only other option will be to hack out with a 5 year old horse who’s really not sensible and highly strung! He will egg her on and make her worse - what he used to do with my last horse!
		
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He may not- its worth a try. I think the best thing at the moment is to hack out with another horse until you are confident in yourself again then tackle the rearing. Horses dont always find the same things frightening so they may help each other.
If you could find a sensible one it would be better though. Horses dont really 'egg each other on' that would mean premeditated thought on their part. But they do react to another horses actions, thats how they survive in the wild.


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## Ish2020 (23 June 2020)

I am going to be brutally honest it you’re own fault for buying a horse with a known rearing problem. Also you don’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to returning because the seller made it very clear of the horse problems . It expensive  problem to fix  you need a experienced person to help you.


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## Lillian_paddington (23 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			I'm not sure why people are taking about returning this horse. She was sold on good faith with full disclosure,  there is no basis whatsoever that I can see to return her to the seller.

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On the chance that the seller is genuinely interested in the horse’s welfare and wants it to go to a suitable home. There’s not a legal case to return the horse, but I think it would be best to offer the seller the opportunity to take it. At least they already know and can handle the horse, and I’m assuming if they’ve only had it gone for a week they would be set up to take it back. 
I totally agree the seller is not legally or even morally obliged to take the horse back, but on the chance that they would it would be better than selling on to a stranger who doesn’t know the horse. Better for the horse too if it can go back to an environment it knows.


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## Freck.19 (23 June 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			This honestly may not be the case- I know a rearer who only does it when alone or forced to leave the group, regardless of how silly the company are being. However, obviously you should only do what you feel comfortable with.
		
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I think when I get to know her more then I’ll feel more comfortable riding her and expecting her rears. I can sit them, Im not getting off, I’m not giving up. I’ll get some lessons. And I’m still going to keep riding her every day.


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## charterline (23 June 2020)

Firstly I’d make sure teeth back and saddle are all checked. (This should be done with any new horse.)

as other posters if it’s a private sale you have no option to send back.

in the meantime do not ride the horse in a situation that’s going to put any pressure on and start the rearing


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## doodle (23 June 2020)

No the seller does not legally have to take horse back. They seem to have been very honest (which is why I am so baffled at the new owner) but clearly this is the wrong home for the horse and they might want a good home and so take back.


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## Wishfilly (23 June 2020)

Freck.19 said:



			I think when I get to know her more then I’ll feel more comfortable riding her and expecting her rears. I can sit them, Im not getting off, I’m not giving up. I’ll get some lessons. And I’m still going to keep riding her every day.
		
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I really hope it all works out for you but I would be wary of getting fixed on the idea of never getting off a rearer- if the behaviour escalates and she's at risk of going over backwards, then I think you need to be ready to bail.


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## Nari (23 June 2020)

Get some help now. It's no good saying you can sit them, sooner or later a horse will make a mistake and end up going over - at that point sitting them is the last thing you want to be doing. If you intend to carry on you need to learn how to see them coming and know how to prevent them. If she's already got you out of your depth the first time she's done this then the chances are things will get worse not better unless you get proper help.


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## Bellaboo18 (23 June 2020)

If you've lost confidence on your first ride it's not a good idea to keep her. You can sit to all the rears you like but either she's in pain (you don't say how you know she isn't) or like the previous owners say it's an established behavioural issue. She needs a very experienced rider. This won't end well, you'll get hurt.


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## splashgirl45 (23 June 2020)

always be ready to get off if she rears , you risk serious injury if she falls over backwards.  you sound like a novice owner who doesnt have any experience of rearers and you really must get some proper help from a good trainer before you have a nasty accident.   please dont be silly and think you can sort this out yourself,  you may be lucky and manage to but you could also have many problems and you are not doing the horse any favours by trying to do it on your own...i am very experienced but would never have bought a known rearer.  there will be a reason that she rears and i would also suggest you get your own vet to assess her as well a a trainer to be sure she doesnt have pain issues.  has she been scoped for ulcers and had her back checked properly?


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## laura_nash (23 June 2020)

Freck.19 said:



			I think when I get to know her more then I’ll feel more comfortable riding her and expecting her rears. I can sit them, Im not getting off, I’m not giving up. I’ll get some lessons. And I’m still going to keep riding her every day.
		
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When you say she rears, is she going right up and how balanced is she?  

My most recent experience of a rearer was a teenage girl who was over-horsed and the horse learnt to rear whenever she was excited and not getting her own way.  It was only ever very low rears, and didn't ever look in danger of unbalancing, she'd just learnt that getting her front hooves off the ground worked to get what she wanted.  After a serious chat from the YO the girls mother arranged an adult sharer who gave the horse some hard work and also an instructress to work with them both and the rearing was all sorted within a couple of months.

I'm always VERY cautious of rearers though after being present when one did go over on someone and cause some pretty serious injuries.  The rider was a very experienced, capable and confident horse-woman who had the horse on schooling livery due to established napping and rearing.  It hadn't reared for some weeks and she was hacking it out with me when it spooked, went up, slipped and went right over on her.  It all happened very quickly.  She was told she was very lucky she didn't lose her leg and had a long period of physio before she was able to ride again.  If your mare is going right up, I would seriously consider how you would feel if you were in a wheelchair for the rest of your life before you say "Im not getting off, I'm not giving up".


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## Flicker (23 June 2020)

Please, for the sake of this horse and your own safety, have a trusted equine vet do a complete work up on her.  Horses don’t generally ‘try it on’ - they have a brain roughly the size of a potato and lack the mental capacity.  What they do do is react.  To pain, to fear, to adrenaline.  This mare is screaming at you that something is not right, and just ‘sitting her rears’ is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going ‘lalala’.
There is every likelihood that she will scream louder at some point and that may very well end up in serious injury for you.  In the meantime, can you in good conscience continue to expect an animal to perform for you when something is so clearly causing her distress?  This is not the time to try to prove what a great rider you are, this is the time to prove what a great listener you are.


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## Cinnamontoast (23 June 2020)

Flicker said:



			Horses don’t generally ‘try it on’ - they have a brain roughly the size of a potato .
		
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This made me laugh! 😂


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## Flicker (23 June 2020)

Cinnamontoast said:



			This made me laugh! 😂
		
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I must admit, the phrase is not mine - I nicked it off a rather wonderful dressage trainer I used to ride with.  But I just love it 😁


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## honetpot (23 June 2020)

Flicker said:



			Please, for the sake of this horse and your own safety, have a trusted equine vet do a complete work up on her.  Horses don’t generally ‘try it on’ - they have a brain roughly the size of a potato and lack the mental capacity.  What they do do is react.  To pain, to fear, to adrenaline.  This mare is screaming at you that something is not right, and just ‘sitting her rears’ is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going ‘lalala’.
There is every likelihood that she will scream louder at some point and that may very well end up in serious injury for you.  In the meantime, can you in good conscience continue to expect an animal to perform for you when something is so clearly causing her distress?  This is not the time to try to prove what a great rider you are, this is the time to prove what a great listener you are.
		
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Well what ever brain capacity they have, some, usually ponies, can work out if they do X, and evades the rider it a good tactic to get what they want.
 It usually starts by accident, the rider in trying to get horse to go one way or stops them going forward, blocks the forward movement and the only way out is up, perhaps with a leap to the side. It’s when the behaviour becomes established it’s a real worry.
 Our old pony only did it once with me, he wanted to go to the field in stead of going to the house and spent a few minutes going side ways, back wards and up before realising he was going home. 
 It’s finding the trigger in the first place and working round it, and finding some way to stop them boiling over, so they go forward not up.


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## Lois Lame (24 June 2020)

_They have assured me that the horse has been turned inside out and there are no health issues, It’s just a learned bad habit._

To me, this is not evidence that there is nothing wrong with the horse.

Maybe the owners believe it, maybe they did this, and maybe they didn't.

What vet was used? He or she would have records.

Bucks are one thing, but rearing is another kettle of fish. I wouldn't get on a rearer. (I'd also prefer to not get on a bucker either, come to think of it, but bucking isn't nearly as dangerous.)


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## Old Side-Saddle Lady (24 June 2020)

Freck.19 said:



			Thanks for your sarcastic, unhelpful comment. It doesn’t bother me that much that it made me not buy her, as I think I can work through it. I’d just appreciate some helpful answers/ tips or people with experience dealing with this.
		
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To be fair, the writer has a point. Knowingly buying a horse which rears isn't your best decision of the year. And there is no reason, moral or otherwise, why the previous owners who sold him to you should be expected to take the horse back and they certainly wouldn't refund the price of the horse. You were warned and chose to take the horse anyway.- no comeback. It probably isn't a problem you can solve unassisted. It might be worth asking around the local riding schools if they can suggest someone who specialises in sorting out horses with this sort of problem. You may need to send the horse away for training which isn't going to be cheap and it may not work. In the worst scenario you may have to retire the horse or, sadly, if it's dangerous to handle from the ground, the only choice might be to have it put to sleep. I know that's hard but a horse that feels it has to rear all the time isn't a happy horse. If you knowingly bought it, regardless of the sellers information you probably won't be able to insure it for any damage it may do and if you were thrown and badly injured you wouldn't get anything from the insurance company.


Lillian_paddington said:



			On the chance that the seller is genuinely interested in the horse’s welfare and wants it to go to a suitable home. There’s not a legal case to return the horse, but I think it would be best to offer the seller the opportunity to take it. At least they already know and can handle the horse, and I’m assuming if they’ve only had it gone for a week they would be set up to take it back.
I totally agree the seller is not legally or even morally obliged to take the horse back, but on the chance that they would it would be better than selling on to a stranger who doesn’t know the horse. Better for the horse too if it can go back to an environment it knows.


Lillian_paddington said:



			On the chance that the seller is genuinely interested in the horse’s welfare and wants it to go to a suitable home. There’s not a legal case to return the horse, but I think it would be best to offer the seller the opportunity to take it. At least they already know and can handle the horse, and I’m assuming if they’ve only had it gone for a week they would be set up to take it back.
I totally agree the seller is not legally or even morally obliged to take the horse back, but on the chance that they would it would be better than selling on to a stranger who doesn’t know the horse. Better for the horse too if it can go back to an environment it knows.


Lillian_paddington said:



			On the chance that the seller is genuinely interested in the horse’s welfare and wants it to go to a suitable home. There’s not a legal case to return the horse, but I think it would be best to offer the seller the opportunity to take it. At least they already know and can handle the horse, and I’m assuming if they’ve only had it gone for a week they would be set up to take it back.
I totally agree the seller is not legally or even morally obliged to take the horse back, but on the chance that they would it would be better than selling on to a stranger who doesn’t know the horse. Better for the horse too if it can go back to an environment it knows.
		
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## Red-1 (24 June 2020)

I bought a known rearer from one of the most honest horse sellers in England, as well as one of the most talented riders. I don't know why, I simply fell in love with the horse. I resigned myself to the fact that, if I could not manage the issue, I had just bought a huge, expensive field ornament.

The horse quickly came round and became my immense Jay Man, who was my soul horse. 

However, I was already a professional rider and had worked with rearers before. It is a dangerous thing, rearing. It is also easy to make the problem worse (not to mention easy to unbalance them if you ride the rear wrong).

It also depends on the type of rear. I have seen a pony simply go straight up and over on the rider, if a horse has no self preservation, I would not ride it.

My horse was very sensitive to the saddle. Needed a flexible tree, or rear facing tree point. That was the turning point, not me. I simply had to manage the condition until I found out what the issue was. He had a lot of holes in his confidence, needed a lot of ground work, needed a new saddle of a particular type, needed time, needed his brain keeping busy and organising. 

In the end he became a wobbler. I suspect he was always a wobbler. I suspect we worked round that by me being sensitive to what he could or could not manage. We never did achieve what I wanted to competitively as I always thought there was 'something wrong' even when he was going great guns at eventing. We only did BE100, I had done to intermediate and he should have been a 4 star horse. I only did 2 BE100s at that, it felt wrong. We hack round a few BE90s, mainly. 

The last 2 years, he was pretty much a pasture ornament, with a bit of light hacking and occasional play in the school. Then, one day, he said no more riding. I didn't listen and he told me stronger. That was the last time I rode him, he was his own pasture ornament after that, for 6 months more, before the wobblers took over. 

I am trying to say that rearing can be a many faceted issue. The previous owner had tried to tell him off, it didn't work. The immediate issue solved gave us some fun. But there was still a physical issue that any work up would not have found. Even as a medium wobbler, his X rays weren't that bad. I never regretted buying him, he was my pal. I had physical issues too, we rubbed along just great. 

I think if you buy a horse with issues, that the previous owner tried to solve, then it is a big risk that you have simply bought a pasture ornament, or that you will have to PTS.

You don't sound very experienced. I would get a very good trainer, after a full work up by a vet and then a physio, who will also check saddle fit.


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## Old Side-Saddle Lady (24 June 2020)

Lois Lame said:



_They have assured me that the horse has been turned inside out and there are no health issues, It’s just a learned bad habit._

To me, this is not evidence that there is nothing wrong with the horse.

Maybe the owners believe it, maybe they did this, and maybe they didn't.

What vet was used? He or she would have records.

Bucks are one thing, but rearing is another kettle of fish. I wouldn't get on a rearer. (I'd also prefer to not get on a bucker either, come to think of it, but bucking isn't nearly as dangerous.)
		
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## Old Side-Saddle Lady (24 June 2020)

Freck.19 said:



			Thanks for your sarcastic, unhelpful comment. It doesn’t bother me that much that it made me not buy her, as I think I can work through it. I’d just appreciate some helpful answers/ tips or people with experience dealing with this.
		
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To be fair, the writer has a point. Knowingly buying a horse which rears isn't your best decision of the year. And there is no reason, moral or otherwise, why the previous owners who sold him to you should be expected to take the horse back and they certainly wouldn't refund you money

Old Side-Saddle Lady
Post #45
22 minutes ago
Forum: The Tack Room


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## Flicker (24 June 2020)

honetpot said:



			Well what ever brain capacity they have, some, usually ponies, can work out if they do X, and evades the rider it a good tactic to get what they want.
It usually starts by accident, the rider in trying to get horse to go one way or stops them going forward, blocks the forward movement and the only way out is up, perhaps with a leap to the side. It’s when the behaviour becomes established it’s a real worry.
Our old pony only did it once with me, he wanted to go to the field in stead of going to the house and spent a few minutes going side ways, back wards and up before realising he was going home.
It’s finding the trigger in the first place and working round it, and finding some way to stop them boiling over, so they go forward not up.
		
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Yes, of course.   I guess my point was more that they don’t have capacity to plan their evasiveness, they react to the situation they are in.  And if that reaction consistently results in a release of pressure (to do something they are  fearful to do or find difficult, confusing or painful), it becomes an entrenched, conditioned pattern of behaviour.


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## PC Steele (24 June 2020)

I would get some professional help there are some very knowledgeable people around. All the very best xx


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## Pinkvboots (24 June 2020)

Cinnamontoast said:



			This made me laugh! 😂
		
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My tea got spat out over that one I feel a new nick name coming on when mine are being stupid lol


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## Pinkvboots (24 June 2020)

I think you need to find out what checks were done by the previous owners vet even speak to there vet, then go from there if it turns out the horse had a basic once over I would want further investigation done to make sure it's not a pain response, thing is now it was a known thing before you bought the horse so probably not even covered by insurance.

It's fine you saying I can sit the rears I am not giving up but I have had a horse rear and go over on top of me, very luckily I only had concussion but I could have been killed, so I wouldn't ever get on a horse that tended to rear let alone buy one.


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## Polos Mum (24 June 2020)

If you're 1000% sure it's not pain (I would want my own specialists to confirm rather than rely on the say so of a seller) then you need time and patience and the ability not to panic / worry. 

Work out what triggers her and to start with avoid those situations.  When she's happily going / doing what you want in other situations then start to work on / build up to her triggers.  Be really careful to keep notes / track that you're not going backwards. 

I had one clever boy who'd been inadvertently 'taught' one rear = back to stable and no work (he did have other issues that made hard work tough for him). He was very surprised when I didn't get off. For him just ignoring it worked. I never pushed him into a fight but equally I never panicked and got off. On occasion getting out of the drive took over 2 hours (probably 25 rears). 
It never went away, but over a long time he learned that there was no point in doing it so it's frequency became much less.


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## Shilasdair (24 June 2020)

I'm guessing Freck.19 didn't get the
'_Aw hun I rescued a rearer too and after I bonded with her, we went on to win Badminton_' answers she was looking for.  

HHO forumites - telling it like it is/tough love.


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## Meowy Catkin (24 June 2020)

Shilasdair said:



			'_Aw hun I rescued a rearer too and after I bonded with her, we went on to win Badminton_'
		
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Why is it that I imagined something along the lines of Evo Stik contact adhesive when I read that?


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## Cortez (24 June 2020)

Can you tell us what you expected to happen after you bought a known and fully disclosed rearer? What was your training plan, your approach to dealing with the causes, methodology and execution of the behaviour? Or did you just think that it wouldn't happen? If that was what you thought, why did you think that?

You need to get a professional involved, pronto.


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## stormox (24 June 2020)

Flicker said:



			Please, for the sake of this horse and your own safety, have a trusted equine vet do a complete work up on her.  Horses don’t generally ‘try it on’ - they have a brain roughly the size of a potato and lack the mental capacity.  What they do do is react.  To pain, to fear, to adrenaline.  This mare is screaming at you that something is not right, and just ‘sitting her rears’ is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going ‘lalala’.
There is every likelihood that she will scream louder at some point and that may very well end up in serious injury for you.  In the meantime, can you in good conscience continue to expect an animal to perform for you when something is so clearly causing her distress?  This is not the time to try to prove what a great rider you are, this is the time to prove what a great listener you are.
		
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Not all horses with problems are in pain. Horses are feral animals and have instinctive responses. If this instinctive response to turn away from perceived danger and is rewarded by getting what they wat (ie fleeing the danger) there is every chance this behaviour will be repeated.
That is why it is so important that young horses are brought on by competent understanding sympathetic riders. A horse only has to be rewarded for rearing once (by rider dismoumting or turning home) and it will repeat the behaviour. After 3 times the behaviour is ingrained.
Good luck Freck. If you think she is going to rear slip your feet out of the stirrups (they wont help you stay on) so you can jump clear if necessary.


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## Teaboy (24 June 2020)

Flicker said:



			Please, for the sake of this horse and your own safety, have a trusted equine vet do a complete work up on her.  Horses don’t generally ‘try it on’ - they have a brain roughly the size of a potato and lack the mental capacity.  What they do do is react.  To pain, to fear, to adrenaline.  This mare is screaming at you that something is not right, and just ‘sitting her rears’ is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going ‘lalala’.
There is every likelihood that she will scream louder at some point and that may very well end up in serious injury for you.  In the meantime, can you in good conscience continue to expect an animal to perform for you when something is so clearly causing her distress?  This is not the time to try to prove what a great rider you are, this is the time to prove what a great listener you are.
		
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Agreed horses don’t just ‘try it on’,  they can lack confidence in their rider, handler, environment enough to feel they need to take matters in to their own hands, which can be expressed in a multitude of ways! If the previous owners really did get a proper investigation done by a reputable equine vet then I would be looking at getting some proper help.

With horses like this you really need to instil confidence and in a calm but determined fashion. Other posters have given you the tips on how to deal with this behaviour and also pointed out with rearers, particularly ones who really go upright you need to be able to think quickly because they can come over.

It does sound unfortunate that the horse has ended up in this situation, as fundamentally even with full honesty should this horse have been sold? And more importantly should it have been sold to someone (and I really don’t mean this to sound offensive) that doesn’t have the experience to actually work with the problem? 

I’m baffled why despite it sounding like you had no experience with rearers you bought her. I can only presume she was a very good price and is a capable horse in a competitive environment for you to want to purchase?


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## scats (24 June 2020)

A 14 year old horse whose go-to is to rear is not going to be an easy fix.  It sounds like the seller was very honest with you, although it would be interesting to find out what checks the Horse has had, as some people’s versions of a thorough investigation massively differ to what I would consider one.

The long and short of it is that you need professional help before you get hurt.  And I mean seriously hurt.  I know somebody paralysed after a horse reared and slipped on top of them.


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## CanteringCarrot (24 June 2020)

I had a rearer before, and he was full of ailments when I investigated further. He had kissing spine, SI issues, arthritis in his neck, and pedal osteitis. He was young, I have no idea why his body was such a tranwreck. I think he did get himself into a wreck when he was a foal.
It's funny, because people would look at him and say he's sound and that I just needed to "show him the way" Yeahhh, ok.

I wouldn't touch a rearer with a 10 foot pole, tbh. It's the ultimate "F-you I am not going forward off of your leg and responding to your aids" and/or "this hurts dammit!" I did have a young TB rear up and fall over when I was younger, out of nowhere, and luckily I landed off to the side in the sand and not under him! I know someone that was badly injured that way. Not sure of the story with the TB, as he wasn't mine. 

I've seen a YouTube vido of a trainer riding a rearer and she does it so skillfully, and is able to turn the horse down out of the rear, but this is not a task for your everyday rider. You really need to do some diagnostics and get a competent pro involved ASAP.


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## Scotsbadboy (24 June 2020)

OP its very easy for people to get carried away and frustrated when responding to this kind of post so as this is the good 'ol interweb take it with a pinch of salt and chin up. You obviously like this horse and when they are lovely on the ground it can feel so one sided. She is new to you and her new surroundings so this is going to take time BUT you need to surround your self with a good team of experts.

I bought a 9 yr old project 8 weeks ago, she was backed, hunted at 3, then became a broodmare and then its a bit vague blah blah blah back under saddle .. dealer, dealer .. me. She is the sweetest (and god she is pretty) and cleverest horse i have met and she is BIG, hot blooded and sassy! Things have not been going well until VERY recently!

Surround yourself with a good team of professionals. I have a stunt rider who does natural horsemanship and his advise and help on the ground the last few weeks has absolutely been invaluable which is translating brilliantly into the saddle. I honestly cant tell you how important it is to get this mare listening to you on the ground and getting those skills transferred to the saddle so you know how to deal with her when she has her moments and she knows clearly what you are doing, when and why.

I wrote a story about my last 7 weeks with this new horse but decided to keep it short and sweet. Happy to PM you as its turning into a right success story i have to say


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## Freck.19 (24 June 2020)

Scotsbadboy said:



			OP its very easy for people to get carried away and frustrated when responding to this kind of post so as this is the good 'ol interweb take it with a pinch of salt and chin up. You obviously like this horse and when they are lovely on the ground it can feel so one sided. She is new to you and her new surroundings so this is going to take time BUT you need to surround your self with a good team of experts.

I bought a 9 yr old project 8 weeks ago, she was backed, hunted at 3, then became a broodmare and then its a bit vague blah blah blah back under saddle .. dealer, dealer .. me. She is the sweetest (and god she is pretty) and cleverest horse i have met and she is BIG, hot blooded and sassy! Things have not been going well until VERY recently!

Surround yourself with a good team of professionals. I have a stunt rider who does natural horsemanship and his advise and help on the ground the last few weeks has absolutely been invaluable which is translating brilliantly into the saddle. I honestly cant tell you how important it is to get this mare listening to you on the ground and getting those skills transferred to the saddle so you know how to deal with her when she has her moments and she knows clearly what you are doing, when and why.

I wrote a story about my last 7 weeks with this new horse but decided to keep it short and sweet. Happy to PM you as its turning into a right success story i have to say 

Click to expand...

Yes please PM me. 
I came for some advice but people are being nasty and unhelpful which isn’t solving anything, is it?
My mare was ridden by a 13 year old girl who managed her rears. They done dressage, SJ, beach rides, schooling, clinics, arena hires, hacking etc. It’s just something she had to put up with though. But they still achieved everything. The reason they sold her was because she really was just too tall for the mare now and wanted to advance her jumping.


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## holeymoley (24 June 2020)

So the horse was sold as being a rearer. I'm afraid you have no come back on a return unless they're genuinely nice people that will agree to take her back. 

Pain aside- I think she's thrown the toys out the pram as you've said no to the taking off. Which naturally, probably resulted in a lot of 'pulling back'- horse has no where else to go + spat the dummy out and up she goes.  If she was sold as a rearer it sounds like she pretty much does this at any point. I'm not convinced all the money in the world can prevent an established rearer from reacting that way, but finding a pretty good trainer could be a start.


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## Bellaboo18 (24 June 2020)

Freck.19 said:



			Yes please PM me. 
I came for some advice but people are being nasty and unhelpful which isn’t solving anything, is it?
My mare was ridden by a 13 year old girl who managed her rears. They done dressage, SJ, beach rides, schooling, clinics, arena hires, hacking etc. It’s just something she had to put up with though. But they still achieved everything. The reason they sold her was because she really was just too tall for the mare now and wanted to advance her jumping.
		
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I gave advice- don't keep this mare. 
I was kind - I wouldn't like to think you got hurt or worse. 
Other posters have done the same, you just don't like the views you're getting.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (24 June 2020)

OP, to echo others, if the horse has scared you then please get professional help from someone who specialises in rearers  in particular. 
I used to specialise in this back in the 80s and 90s, (when I was younger and pliable) mostly with tb's and can advise that it's a long haul work plan not a short fix at any point,  that's after all medical and saddlery issues have been ruled out.

Shils, sorry to correct you but yes they can rear with nose in......


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## Shilasdair (24 June 2020)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			OP, to echo others, if the horse has scared you then please get professional help from someone who specialises in rearers  in particular.
I used to specialise in this back in the 80s and 90s, (when I was younger and pliable) mostly with tb's and can advise that it's a long haul work plan not a short fix at any point,  that's after all medical and saddlery issues have been ruled out.

Shils, sorry to correct you but yes they can rear with nose in......
		
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Happy to be corrected - but errr... I have never said they can't rear with 'nose in'.    What is 'nose in' anyway?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (24 June 2020)

Shilasdair said:



			Happy to be corrected - but errr... I have never said they can't rear with 'nose in'.    What is 'nose in' anyway?
		
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Sorry, you said can only rear with head and neck straight,  not nose in (must be the heat dummying my brain!).
They can rear with head or neck or both bent too


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## Shilasdair (24 June 2020)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Sorry, you said can only rear with head and neck straight,  not nose in (must be the heat dummying my brain!).
They can rear with head or neck or both bent too
		
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Not in my experience, they can't.
We'll have to agree to differ.


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## Nari (24 June 2020)

Red-1 said:



			I bought a known rearer from one of the most honest horse sellers in England, as well as one of the most talented riders. I don't know why, I simply fell in love with the horse. I resigned myself to the fact that, if I could not manage the issue, I had just bought a huge, expensive field ornament.

The horse quickly came round and became my immense Jay Man, who was my soul horse.

However, I was already a professional rider and had worked with rearers before. It is a dangerous thing, rearing. It is also easy to make the problem worse (not to mention easy to unbalance them if you ride the rear wrong).

It also depends on the type of rear. I have seen a pony simply go straight up and over on the rider, if a horse has no self preservation, I would not ride it.

My horse was very sensitive to the saddle. Needed a flexible tree, or rear facing tree point. That was the turning point, not me. I simply had to manage the condition until I found out what the issue was. He had a lot of holes in his confidence, needed a lot of ground work, needed a new saddle of a particular type, needed time, needed his brain keeping busy and organising.

In the end he became a wobbler. I suspect he was always a wobbler. I suspect we worked round that by me being sensitive to what he could or could not manage. We never did achieve what I wanted to competitively as I always thought there was 'something wrong' even when he was going great guns at eventing. We only did BE100, I had done to intermediate and he should have been a 4 star horse. I only did 2 BE100s at that, it felt wrong. We hack round a few BE90s, mainly.

The last 2 years, he was pretty much a pasture ornament, with a bit of light hacking and occasional play in the school. Then, one day, he said no more riding. I didn't listen and he told me stronger. That was the last time I rode him, he was his own pasture ornament after that, for 6 months more, before the wobblers took over.

I am trying to say that rearing can be a many faceted issue. The previous owner had tried to tell him off, it didn't work. The immediate issue solved gave us some fun. But there was still a physical issue that any work up would not have found. Even as a medium wobbler, his X rays weren't that bad. I never regretted buying him, he was my pal. I had physical issues too, we rubbed along just great.

I think if you buy a horse with issues, that the previous owner tried to solve, then it is a big risk that you have simply bought a pasture ornament, or that you will have to PTS.

You don't sound very experienced. I would get a very good trainer, after a full work up by a vet and then a physio, who will also check saddle fit.
		
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I'm close to going right off you as a poster Red-1, you just made me blub on my danish pastry! What a story, and what a very lucky horse though it sounds like you got back from him just as much as you gave to him. I'm sorry there wasn't a better ending and you didn't get more time together.


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## Nari (24 June 2020)

OP please don't lose sight of the fact that some 13 year olds are far better riders than some older riders with many years of experience will ever be. "Ridden by a child" means absolutely nothing, but is sounds good in adverts and makes people think they can do better.


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## FestiveFuzz (24 June 2020)

OP I feel like you've had a bit of a tough time on this thread, but please know that it'll be coming from a good place. No matter how blunt the message there's an absolute wealth of experience on these forums and ultimately no one wants to see you get hurt. 

FWIW I think it's a fair question to ask why you chose to buy a known rearer when one ride in your confidence is already dented from it rearing, but really it's all a bit of a moot point as you've bought the mare and no amount of dwelling is going to change that. 

In your shoes I'd firstly want to be 100% certain the mare wasn't in pain, before I pushed the rearing issue any further. Can you speak to the previous owner and ask what tests they did to ascertain the mare isn't rearing in pain? I would ideally want the supporting vet reports to pass on to my own vet to review, followed by getting my own vet to check them over and possibly x-ray and bone scan depending on what tests had already been done. Ultimately for my own piece of mind I'd want to know with certainty that there are no physical reasons for the behaviour before putting time and money into training to fix the issue. 

Once you know it truly is just a learned behaviour, I would enlist the help of a trainer that can help get you through this. I mean this with no disrespect, but the fact that she scared you on the first ride with her rearing means you'll be on a hiding to nothing trying to crack this alone, especially when the behaviour is long ingrained so it really is worth enlisting help early doors to prevent the behaviour escalating further and you either getting hurt or losing your confidence completely...start as you mean to go on and all that jazz. 

I really hope you manage to get this sorted, for both you and your mare's sake. Horses are meant to be fun afterall!


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## Amymay (24 June 2020)

Two questions from me:

1.  Did you see previous vet records?
2.  Was she vetted?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (24 June 2020)

Shilasdair said:



			Not in my experience, they can't.
We'll have to agree to differ.
		
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Our experience must differ,  so yes, we will have to agree to disagree on this


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## Freck.19 (24 June 2020)

FestiveFuzz said:



			OP I feel like you've had a bit of a tough time on this thread, but please know that it'll be coming from a good place. No matter how blunt the message there's an absolute wealth of experience on these forums and ultimately no one wants to see you get hurt.

FWIW I think it's a fair question to ask why you chose to buy a known rearer when one ride in your confidence is already dented from it rearing, but really it's all a bit of a moot point as you've bought the mare and no amount of dwelling is going to change that.

In your shoes I'd firstly want to be 100% certain the mare wasn't in pain, before I pushed the rearing issue any further. Can you speak to the previous owner and ask what tests they did to ascertain the mare isn't rearing in pain? I would ideally want the supporting vet reports to pass on to my own vet to review, followed by getting my own vet to check them over and possibly x-ray and bone scan depending on what tests had already been done. Ultimately for my own piece of mind I'd want to know with certainty that there are no physical reasons for the behaviour before putting time and money into training to fix the issue.

Once you know it truly is just a learned behaviour, I would enlist the help of a trainer that can help get you through this. I mean this with no disrespect, but the fact that she scared you on the first ride with her rearing means you'll be on a hiding to nothing trying to crack this alone, especially when the behaviour is long ingrained so it really is worth enlisting help early doors to prevent the behaviour escalating further and you either getting hurt or losing your confidence completely...start as you mean to go on and all that jazz.

I really hope you manage to get this sorted, for both you and your mare's sake. Horses are meant to be fun afterall!
		
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i really don’t know where people have got the idea that this is my first ride on her. It’s my fourth ride...my confidence isnt shattered, I suppose I’m just aware there is actually a chance this could happen now.


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## Nari (24 June 2020)

Freck.19 said:



			i really don’t know where people have got the idea that this is my first ride on her. It’s my fourth ride...my confidence isnt shattered, I suppose I’m just aware there is actually a chance this could happen now.
		
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And the seller telling you the horse is a rearer didn't make you aware that there was a chance this would happen? Your confidence clearly isn't that great if you had to get your boyfriend to lead her.


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## Pearlsasinger (24 June 2020)

Freck.19 said:



			I’ve had my new mare less than a week, I went to try her out and she was perfect, the owners were very nice and also told me all her good and bad points - including her napping, rearing! On my second viewing for her she did actually rear with me, 3 in a row, but I sat them all and they weren’t that big. They have assured me that the horse has been turned inside out and there are no health issues, It’s just a learned bad habit. She’s 14 and has got away with it for many years.
So she’s been home and settled, and *today I took her out her first hack!* She was an angel, but she ended up dragging me into a massive field wanting to take off! She didn’t, but every time I tried to turn her back she rested, and the rears got bigger and bigger, she done about 5. I was really scared, she’s the first horse I’ve ever dealt with that rears. Luckily my boyfriend was on hand to clip a lead rope to her and then she was fine.

what should I do? *It’s made me lose my confidence a little bit.* ☹️
		
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I should think it is the phrases that I have highlighted in bold that have informed the responses that you don't like.


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## Freck.19 (24 June 2020)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I should think it is the phrases that I have highlighted in bold that have informed the responses that you don't like.
		
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I have schooled her at home prior to taking her out.


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## HollyWoozle (24 June 2020)

OP, I just stopped by to echo others to say please do be careful and get some professional help with this mare, rearing is no laughing matter as you've realised. I ended up retiring my mare as she started rearing with me - she would go right up, out of the blue, and luckily for me I slipped off the back in each case before she went over. Once she reared when I had one foot in the stirrup to get on and enough was enough for me.

I didn't wish to send her off for more thorough investigation or to a professional as she was very nervous at times and I felt that she would never be happy as a ridden horse (there was nothing obvious wrong with her physically so would've required x-raying and so on). Even if the issue was purely behavioural, I am not an experienced, skilled enough rider to work through such things and the risks with a true rearer are too high for me. She is now a field ornament essentially and I have never truly regretted my decision not to ride her again. 

I remember reading a lot about rearing at the time and generally being horrified by the number of people who have been seriously injured that way. I'm not saying yours is a lost cause of course, but please, please do get some more investigation done and take some advice for your own safety. I hope you can work it out.


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## doodle (24 June 2020)

No one is being horrible. You didn’t get the replies you wanted so you are not happy. You said on first post you were very frightened. And also it was your first hack out. My opinion sticks that you should not have bought the horse in the first place and I am confused why you would then be concerned when the horse shows the behaviour. You need serious help and should not try and fix this issue yourself. You said she was rearing higher each time. She could get to the point she could flip over and land on top of you killing you. If you do not know how to handle the build up, which is why you are posting, you may well be the unbalancing factor that flips her.


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## Lillian_paddington (24 June 2020)

Freck.19 said:



			I have schooled her at home prior to taking her out.
		
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Well that’s sensible but to be fair there was no way for anyone on the forum to know. Some people have been a little blunt but not without reason, I’m sure you can agree it’s not been your best idea. Ideally you would have bought something you could feel confident and have fun on from the start. 
I really do think you should ask the owners to take her back, and if they won’t (they’re not obliged to as private sellers) then sell on to a very experienced rider or pts. How high is she going? If you mean a proper rear, all the way up, then honestly don’t get on her again. She could flip over very easily, and you don’t have the experience to reduce the risk of that. 
Any chance you just mean a low rear? Feet off the ground but not in any risk of unbalancing herself? Because that is totally different and can be dealt with.


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## stormox (24 June 2020)

Kamikaze said:



			No one is being horrible. You didn’t get the replies you wanted so you are not happy. You said on first post you were very frightened. And also it was your first hack out. My opinion sticks that you should not have bought the horse in the first place and I am confused why you would then be concerned when the horse shows the behaviour. You need serious help and should not try and fix this issue yourself. You said she was rearing higher each time. She could get to the point she could flip over and land on top of you killing you. If you do not know how to handle the build up, which is why you are posting, you may well be the unbalancing factor that flips her.
		
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There is a difference between what the OP said which was 'I have lost confidence a little bit' and what you are saying she said 'you said on the first post you were very frightened'  ..... losing a bit of confidence is not being very frightened!!
It was her 1st hack. NOT her 1st ride.
Why are people being so negative and reading things that arent there? It isnt fair on the OP.


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## scats (24 June 2020)

stormox said:



			There is a difference between what the OP said which was 'I have lost confidence a little bit' and what you are saying she said 'you said on the first post you were very frightened'  ..... losing a bit of confidence is not being very frightened!!
It was her 1st hack. NOT her 1st ride.
Why are people being so negative and reading things that arent there? It isnt fair on the OP.
		
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I think that because she wrote on her first post that she was really scared?


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## Lillian_paddington (24 June 2020)

stormox said:



			There is a difference between what the OP said which was 'I have lost confidence a little bit' and what you are saying she said 'you said on the first post you were very frightened'  ..... losing a bit of confidence is not being very frightened!!
It was her 1st hack. NOT her 1st ride.
Why are people being so negative and reading things that arent there? It isnt fair on the OP.
		
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Because no one wants to encourage a (seemingly) novice rider to jump back on her rearing horse. The op has absolutely no experience with rearing. What if she got on, the horse reared, and flipped on to her? Potentially life changing or life ending injuries. 
If it really is a big rearer then it is best left to pro or very experienced riders.


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## doodle (24 June 2020)

Kamikaze said:



			No one is being horrible. You didn’t get the replies you wanted so you are not happy. You said on first post you were very frightened. And also it was your first hack out. My opinion sticks that you should not have bought the horse in the first place and I am confused why you would then be concerned when the horse shows the behaviour. You need serious help and should not try and fix this issue yourself. You said she was rearing higher each time. She could get to the point she could flip over and land on top of you killing you. If you do not know how to handle the build up, which is why you are posting, you may well be the unbalancing factor that flips her.
		
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stormox said:



			There is a difference between what the OP said which was 'I have lost confidence a little bit' and what you are saying she said 'you said on the first post you were very frightened'  ..... losing a bit of confidence is not being very frightened!!
It was her 1st hack. NOT her 1st ride.
Why are people being so negative and reading things that arent there? It isnt fair on the OP.
		
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I can’t get quotes to work properly. 

My mistake tho, she said she was very “scared” (in her very first post which I can’t get to quite)not very “frightened” same thing tho. I also said it was her first HACK not first ride as you say I did.


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## Nari (24 June 2020)

stormox said:



			There is a difference between what the OP said which was 'I have lost confidence a little bit' and what you are saying she said 'you said on the first post you were very frightened'  ..... losing a bit of confidence is not being very frightened!!
It was her 1st hack. NOT her 1st ride.
Why are people being so negative and reading things that arent there? It isnt fair on the OP.
		
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I think a lot of people are replying based on what they've seen happen time after time in real life when someone has taken on too much. They aren't being negative, they're being realistic and not wanting someone to be hurt or killed. There's a time for being encouraging, this isn't it.


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## ihatework (24 June 2020)

Well the OP won’t be the first or last person to buy a horse with an issue thinking they are experienced enough and then rapidly coming down to earth (hopefully with not too big a bump!).

This is called learning!

OP, you’ve done a bit of a daft & naive thing buying this horse. So take the criticism on the chin.

What you do now is up to you. There is a reasonable probability there is an underlying physical reason for the behaviour and even if there isn’t then it’s an acquired skill to re-educate the behaviour. You need plenty professional input and don’t expect it to be a cheap or easy journey. If you go that path stay safe. If you choose not to then there is no shame in admitting defeat.


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## doodle (24 June 2020)

Freck.19 said:



			I was really scared, she’s the first horse I’ve ever dealt with that rears. Luckily my boyfriend was on hand to clip a lead rope to her and then she was fine.

what should I do? It’s made me lose my confidence a little bit. ☹️
		
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## Ish2020 (24 June 2020)

stormox said:



			There is a difference between what the OP said which was 'I have lost confidence a little bit' and what you are saying she said 'you said on the first post you were very frightened'  ..... losing a bit of confidence is not being very frightened!!
It was her 1st hack. NOT her 1st ride.
Why are people being so negative and reading things that arent there? It isnt fair on the OP.
		
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 I had seen a novice rider being seriously hurt by a horse with a rearing problem the rider ended up stuck in a wheelchair and cannot do anything for himself as a result of a injury.  The op sounds very inexperienced and to me it sounds like she is struggling big time. It can get very dangerous loads of people have been killed by rearing horse.


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## indie1282 (24 June 2020)

stormox said:



			There is a difference between what the OP said which was 'I have lost confidence a little bit' and what you are saying she said 'you said on the first post you were very frightened'  ..... losing a bit of confidence is not being very frightened!!
It was her 1st hack. NOT her 1st ride.
Why are people being so negative and reading things that arent there? It isnt fair on the OP.
		
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Tbf the OP never said that she has ridden the horse before. She said it was her first hack and that after 5 rears she was really scared - it's right there in the first post if you care to read it. 

OP has bought a horse that is known to rear but is clearly not capable of coping when it does rears. I have ridden a fair few rearers and it's really not fun! I would never ever buy a horse knowing that it rears, and I have ridden for over 30 years. 

Also maybe the 13 year old girl who used to ride it is a better rider than the OP?


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## Teaboy (24 June 2020)

stormox said:



			There is a difference between what the OP said which was 'I have lost confidence a little bit' and what you are saying she said 'you said on the first post you were very frightened'  ..... losing a bit of confidence is not being very frightened!!
It was her 1st hack. NOT her 1st ride.
Why are people being so negative and reading things that arent there? It isnt fair on the OP.
		
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I think some including myself are sad at the circumstances, sad for the horse and sad for the op. As it’s horses like these that can seriously affect your confidence with riding and end up very dangerous if you don’t know how to deal with it. Hence some blunt replies. 
It doesn’t sound like this horse should have been sold to someone who doesn’t have the confidence/experience and know how to deal with a rear.


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## hellfire (24 June 2020)

Once all pain and discomfort even from tack was ruled out 110% there is a very old fashioned trick my old riding instructor used to use. I’m not saying it works for every horse but she trained many ‘problem’ horses and I’ve seen it done and work. When the horse reared she was ready either with a egg or water ballon and the used to pop it over the horses head. Takes some doing, balance and forward thinking. In the horses mind they have hurt their head or crashed into something. She swore by it and stopped many rearing with this fix. Just a suggestion to try. She of course ruled out other issues and sadly many had been caused by pain or poor fitting tack. When I later became a instructor and trainer I went down the line of problem horses. All the ones I’ve encountered that reared have had pain issues. The big warm blood mare I’ll never forget. When I arrived I told them the saddle was pinching and but was too small. The client wouldn’t have it and asked if I’d just sit on and see. Well against my better judgment (I was younger and not as firm with people) I got on. I’d barely sat in that saddle and she reared again and again. I stayed on gripping for dear life only one foot in the stirrup until she reared so high she fell backwards crushing me from the chest down on a concrete yard. Needless to say I sustained injuries as did the mare. They changed the tack after she was healed and you know what, that mare was amazing.


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## FestiveFuzz (24 June 2020)

Freck.19 said:



			I’ve had my new mare less than a week, I went to try her out and she was perfect, the owners were very nice and also told me all her good and bad points - including her napping, rearing! On my second viewing for her she did actually rear with me, 3 in a row, but I sat them all and they weren’t that big. They have assured me that the horse has been turned inside out and there are no health issues, It’s just a learned bad habit. She’s 14 and has got away with it for many years.
So she’s been home and settled, and today *I took her out her first hack*! She was an angel, but she ended up dragging me into a massive field wanting to take off! She didn’t, but every time I tried to turn her back she rested, and the rears got bigger and bigger, she done about 5. *I was really scared*, she’s the first horse I’ve ever dealt with that rears. Luckily my boyfriend was on hand to clip a lead rope to her and then she was fine.

what should I do? *It’s made me lose my confidence a little bit*. ☹️
		
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Freck.19 said:



			i really don’t know where people have got the idea that this is my first ride on her. It’s my fourth ride...my confidence isnt shattered, I suppose I’m just aware there is actually a chance this could happen now.
		
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I've highlighted the bits in bold in your original post that may have led folks to believe this was your first hack with her, which evidently it was. (I don't think anyone suggested first ride, but might have missed it). If you'd read my post I didn't say your confidence was shattered...yet! But these things can and do quickly escalate, especially when by your own admission you were really scared, hence suggesting you could do with a helping hand before you find yourself out of your depth. Why you didn't already think there was a chance a known rearer would rear with you is anyone's guess?! 

I'm not entirely sure what you were wanting from this thread so I'm going to tap out, but wish you the best of luck.


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## Red-1 (24 June 2020)

Nari said:



			I'm close to going right off you as a poster Red-1, you just made me blub on my danish pastry! What a story, and what a very lucky horse though it sounds like you got back from him just as much as you gave to him. I'm sorry there wasn't a better ending and you didn't get more time together.
		
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He was perfect. Mr Red resents him as I put aside my competitive plans and just loved being his person. The 2nd BE 100 I did, I was in tears before the XC. Mr Red was exasperated, as I sobbed that I didn't want to risk Jay Man as he was too precious. Not me at all! Mr Red insisted I did the course, he stormed round clear, and I never entered another. I do think it was because he always felt a little wrong, even though he was bang sound. He felt like he was bursting his heart trying, and I felt unfair for asking him. I guess that was the wobblers.

When I lost him, it took a year to even want to look at another horse. I can't explain it, he was mine over the stable door the instant I first saw him. I didn't care if he was a retired hunter, a 2 year old or, indeed, a broodmare (I could only see his head and knew nothing about him), he was mine. He wasn't even for sale, because if the rearing. As it was, he was a fit and athletic horse who let me ride him. But, as a pre warned rearer, I was perfectly prepared for him to simply be a pet.

OP, some people have perhaps not phrased their answers as kindly as you would need to hear the message, but it does sound like you need to take action. I would, as I said, specialist vet, hydro and trainer. But, be prepared to either own a pasture ornament or PTS if it doesn't come right. Not finding a physical issue does not equal not having one (as I found).


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## Cortez (24 June 2020)

This is my leg after a horse sent in for reschooling with undisclosed behavioural problems reared over backwards on me. I am a professional rider and have successfully rehabbed many rearers. No one has been unkind to you, quite the opposite. Get. Some. Help.


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## Nari (24 June 2020)

At Red-1 I know just what you mean, I had one I felt the same way about and after I lost him I eventually had to move yard because I couldn't cope with him not being there when I expected to turn round and see him watching me.


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## Callieann (24 June 2020)

I too bought a horse that reared, badly. The reading was so bad that sometimes I wondered how I didn't just  slide off her back. That was twelve months ago. I could have sent her back but decided that, that wouldn't be very helpful to the mare. I decided to restart with ground work, which I am still doing with her now. I discovered that there were many things causing her anxiety and the rearing was her way of saying I just can't cope. I am now at a point where I can ride her out in just a halter at all paces with no contact. I have taught her how to bring herself back down and relax when she gets anxious and it's like I have a completely different horse.


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## Scotsbadboy (24 June 2020)

Callieann said:



			I too bought a horse that reared, badly. The reading was so bad that sometimes I wondered how I didn't just  slide off her back. That was twelve months ago. I could have sent her back but decided that, that wouldn't be very helpful to the mare. I decided to restart with ground work, which I am still doing with her now. I discovered that there were many things causing her anxiety and the rearing was her way of saying I just can't cope. I am now at a point where I can ride her out in just a halter at all paces with no contact. I have taught her how to bring herself back down and relax when she gets anxious and it's like I have a completely different horse.
		
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Love this. I am currently getting help with the in hand work and its translating so well into ridden work because i am giving her a way of coping with her own self in situations where she feels under pressure. Its like im starting to see a different horse and i like it a lot


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## The Fuzzy Furry (24 June 2020)

hellfire said:



			Once all pain and discomfort even from tack was ruled out 110% there is a very old fashioned trick my old riding instructor used to use. I’m not saying it works for every horse but she trained many ‘problem’ horses and I’ve seen it done and work. When the horse reared she was ready either with a egg or water ballon and the used to pop it over the horses head. Takes some doing, balance and forward thinking. In the horses mind they have hurt their head or crashed into something. She swore by it and stopped many rearing with this fix. Just a suggestion to try.
		
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This.does.not.work.

I have tried many things but this really doesnt work at all.
Having had a good number in as I specialised in this behaviour problem,  I'll confirm we shot a few,  with owners permission. I've gone over, off the back etc, this was KNOWING the animals had got problems, had been vet checked etc.
I was very very lucky not to be seriously damaged then, but in your 20s and 30s you are more invincible then.....

Cortez,  that's a bloody horror, at least with mine I knew what might be coming, how shitty of the owners!

OP did you get the horse vetted? I've seen several ask but cannot see any reply.


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## Winters100 (24 June 2020)

Honestly in this situation I would beg the original owner to take the horse back, if they refunded a small portion of the purchase price great, if not I would be happy to have got rid of a very expensive problem and would give myself a serious talking to about being over confident.

Whether it is pain or learned behaviour it will be a problem which will be very expensive to fix, if indeed it can be fixed at all.  Investigations do not mean that the horse has no pain, just that if pain is present then the source of it is not identified.

If this is not pain related it sounds as if you have the problem that this is not the right horse for you.  

I am sorry that you are in this situation, but really you need to be sensible about it.  It is not about 'not giving up', but protecting yourself from what could be a very serious injury.


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## LaurenBay (24 June 2020)

OP - if you are still reading, this is what I would do.

1, firstly I'd speak with the old owners and ask if the vet records can be sent to you, you will then know exactly what tests the mare had and what she didn't. If there were tests missed then ask a vet you trust to carry them out, this can rule out pain. If pain is found then discuss with your vet the best way to treat this. 

2, if no pain found then I'd ask a pro rider for help and guidance on how best to manage this Horse when she rears. There are small rears with learned behaviour, and then there is up and backwards, which is incredibly dangerous. Not only will you shatter your confidence, you run the risk of shattering your legs/spine/skull as the Horse will eventually go up and over. 

3, if you do not want to do either of the above then retire or PTS.

Also responding to your latest comment about the things the Horse achieved, my old Yard Owner had a big warmblood, he used to bronc when first putting a saddle on, but was superb to ride and was still jumping 1.20 tracks, hacking and dressage. After investigations it was found Horse had Kissing spine which was getting worse and worse. He was such a genuine and honest Horse he was very good at hiding the pain, eventually he was PTS. So just because the Horse is capable of doing these things doesn't mean they aren't gritting their teeth trying to hide pain.


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## Orangehorse (24 June 2020)

Good advice from LaurenBay

I had a pony that would nap and rear, and I stuck with it and managed to cure it eventually, but I was a fearless child at the time and had an older sister standing by telling me what to do so I wasn't alone.  At that age I wasn't frightened or even aware of the consequences of the rearing, it was just annoying that the pony didn't behave.  Crucially the pony never threatened to come over backwards, too clever to do that, unlike some horses that will throw themselves backwards (seen the video of the racehorse?) or simply lose balance and topple over onto the rider. Friend had that with young horse that wouldn't stand still. She kicked it in the ribs (!) and it went straight up and over backwards and broke her pelvis, although she healed OK.  It was a young horse that lost its balance, it wasn't a learned behaviour (and went on to be a show jumper I believe).

So this horse's previous rider could cope with the rearing, treating it as a bit of a "look at me riding this naughty horse" I suspect.  So although it would misbehave with the younger rider they weren't that bothered as they knew the animal well.  And they were riding it and doing well with it so it was something they could live with.  

So OP buys the horse, having been truthfully told that it rears, so the only way they could send it back would be "I'm sorry I've made a really bad mistake and I can't manage it, will you have it back?"  To which there may be a big "NO"  - you bought it knowing it rears, your problem now.  (and you may be lucky and they will have it back)

So if there isn't a physical problem - which could be expensive to diagnose/treat -  or trouble with the saddle for instance, what to do?  This is not advice, or a riding lesson, but what someone with experience of riding this sort of horse might do.  I would add that a horse is a different proposition to a pony, because they are obviously much bigger, heavier and have less self preservation so the risk to the rider is greater and can result in death or disablement.

There are ways and means of overcoming it.  Be aware of when the horse might rear, and try to avoid those situations, and also knowing what its feet are doing, so you can pre-empt an attempt to stop and rear.  More schooling, it is not obeying the forward aids, obviously.  By Not pulling it over backwards if it has lost its balance, so if it does manage to go up, lean forwards and be ready to jump off, so feet out of stirrups, but preferably by keeping it on the move so it can't stop to gather itself to rear - making lots of small circles by pulling on one rein and then riding it forwards.  This takes determination and courage.


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## Shilasdair (24 June 2020)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			This.does.not.work.

I have tried many things but this really doesnt work at all.
Having had a good number in as I specialised in this behaviour problem,  I'll confirm we shot a few,  with owners permission. I've gone over, off the back etc, this was KNOWING the animals had got problems, had been vet checked etc.
I was very very lucky not to be seriously damaged then, but in your 20s and 30s you are more invincible then.....

Cortez,  that's a bloody horror, at least with mine I knew what might be coming, how shitty of the owners!

OP did you get the horse vetted? I've seen several ask but cannot see any reply.
		
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On this we can agree, Fuzzy!  
It's a myth, doesn't work and even if it did, who wants to spend the rest of their life riding with a handy raw egg/watermelon on the off chance their horse goes up?


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## Orangehorse (24 June 2020)

I have a tale from a Nagsman, which I don't know if this is the time and place to repeat it.  It wasn't breaking anything over its head, and it was a young horse newly broken in, so hadn't learned to be naughty.


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## ForeverBroke_ (24 June 2020)

Please do not endanger yourself trying to aim a well-timed egg or water balloon on your horses head while it is rearing . 

As previously said, it does not work.


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## Amymay (24 June 2020)

DO NOT TRY AND CRACK AN EGG OR ANYTHING ELSE ON HER HEAD!!!!


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## HobleytheTB (24 June 2020)

I know you've got plenty of cautionary tales OP, but here's mine - I fell off a when a horse reared in pretty much the best circumstances possible (other than if I'd landed on my feet!).

12'2 pony, fell straight off the back, pony didn't come down with me, flat landing in a soft (ish) sand school, no broken bones etc, I'm young and fit...

The deep muscle bruising from that took a good 4 weeks to ease, and it was 6 weeks before I rode again. A bigger horse, a harder surface etc, could all have made it far, far worse. Please be careful and thorough, there's some good advice from LaurenBay that would be a safe and sensible way forward!


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## Gloi (24 June 2020)

When I was a teenager there was another girl in the area who had a buckskin pony about 14hds. Good looking pony. However he was a confirmed rearer. His rider was a year or so older than me,  about 15. She was a plucky rider and his rearing didn't bother her, in fact  she was one of the types who quite liked having a difficult pony.  Unfortunately one day he reared and went over on the road. She got serious head injuries and the next time we saw her she was in a wheelchair and couldn't speak. I think she did get some speech back again but she was seriously brain damaged and she always needed carers. It was a big shock to us all at the time but a warning to us too.


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## Leandy (24 June 2020)

I think that from the fact that you are on here asking what to do because you have been frightened by the horse's behaviour within days of acquiring it you really don't have the ability or experience to deal with this.  I'm sure the sellers were very nice!  Either they saw you coming, or perhaps you gave them the impression you have more experience than you do and they actually thought you would be alright.  It really isn't a case of just not falling off when it rears!  I think you need to swallow your pride and ask them to take the horse back because you realise you are not able to cope with it. If they are genuine they may in the horse's interests but they don't have to and if they are not genuine they won't.   If you are stuck with the horse, I would turn it out for a couple of weeks to settle, then I would take it slowly and treat it as just backed, introducing everything you want to do slowly step by step, setting yourselves up to succeed, and getting experienced help at the first hint of trouble.   Do not ride alone (a) if the horse has company it is more likely not to nap and (b) so you have someone to help if you get into trouble and also someone else to tell you when it is sensible to call it a day (we don't always make good judgements ourselves in the heat of the moment!).


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## SpeedyPony (24 June 2020)

Agree with others that it's worth getting access to vet records/rechecking. Also echo advice in re. turning/getting him moving forwards before he rears.
If he's safe in the school, spend a few weeks retraining the forwards aids, so that it becomes alien to him to ignore them, hopefully then when you feel him start to play up and send him on habit will kick in and get him going forward.
If he's rearing because he's nappy, it might be a confidence issue, take him out in company and long-rein or lead out (if safe) to build his confidence in you and his surroundings. There's no shame in hopping off and leading/getting someone on the ground to give you a lead if it's safer. Better by far to have someone on the ground or get off and lead for a few hundred yards than end up in hospital. IMO, as long as he knows you won't let him go home for tea every time he rears it doesn't matter so much if you have to get off and hop back on when he's got over his tantrum.
If he rears with you on the ground, leadrope across the legs, as soon as they leave the ground. Might sound harsh, but far less dangerous in the long run, for both of you.
Professional help is probably the best idea, but if you do decide to tackle it on your own get a friend with a steady horse to go out with you or have someone on the ground at all times until he can be trusted not to rear.
Also- Rome wasn't built in a day! If it's entrenched learned behaviour rather than pain, this is going to be a long slog to train out of him.


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## honetpot (24 June 2020)

First of all we have no idea of the OP competence, and there is riding, just sitting on it to riding to where you have control in most situations. So who knows how much work she actually did on it. So she took it out, it sounds like with no ridden companion, on a known rearer with no idea what triggers it, and it takes her in to a field where she doesn’t want to go and it starts to rear.
 A lot of riding is about avoiding situations you may not be able to control and this situation is just about predictable. If the hack had gone well that would have been the surprise, my then fourteen year old daughter would have known better, but then she wouldn’t be on the horse in the first place even though she had a 16 hand maxi cob type.
She asked for advice and the advice is you need more help before you get injured, that’s not being nasty.


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## doodle (24 June 2020)

Exactly!!


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## hellfire (24 June 2020)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			This.does.not.work.

I have tried many things but this really doesnt work at all.
Having had a good number in as I specialised in this behaviour problem,  I'll confirm we shot a few,  with owners permission. I've gone over, off the back etc, this was KNOWING the animals had got problems, had been vet checked etc.
I was very very lucky not to be seriously damaged then, but in your 20s and 30s you are more invincible then.....

Cortez,  that's a bloody horror, at least with mine I knew what might be coming, how shitty of the owners!

OP did you get the horse vetted? I've seen several ask but cannot see any reply.
		
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That’s fair enough it doesn’t work was only passing on what a old trainer had sworn by for many years. As I said I’ve never tried it. At the end of the day if the OP doesn’t want to hear what everyone is saying which is about vetting, horse is dangerous, get a professional, rule out pain etc etc then nothing will change with the horse or rider so was just passing on something I was told else I’d of been repeating what had already been said. As I also stated any rear happy horse Ive encountered has been mostly due to pain bar a small handful who had separation anxiety so napped and when asked to go forward would go up. I’ve never tackled them with a egg or water balloon just to clarify 😂.


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## Wishfilly (24 June 2020)

I don't think anyone is trying to be intentionally nasty to the OP, but like others on the thread I have seen the consequences of a rearer going up and over on someone. In the case I saw, it was a young rider just turning professional who believed she could sort out a talented horse that was sold to her cheaply due to the issue- usually the horse's rears were not that high, but she got into a battle with it and the horse ended up going higher and higher until eventually it went over backwards on her. It broke her leg and hip, I believe and ended her career. 

In my opinion, smallish rears are actually easier to sit than bucks or nasty spooks for a lot of people- but the consequences of things going wrong end up being much worse more frequently than with other evasions. 

The dragging into the field thing also worries me- it suggests there's a lack of control. What if, next time, it's not a field but a busy road, or there's some kind of hazard in the field?

I do think it's possible to successfully manage a rearer if you know the triggers (however this can be quite limiting e.g. never hacking alone), or to find the root cause and fix that if it's pain related. But I don't think it's as simple as saying you will just ride them through it and get some lessons and it will all be ok. 

I would also add just because a 13yo has been able to cope in the past, doesn't mean everything will be fine going forwards. The previous rider may have just been lucky never to have had a nasty accident, or may have been able to manage the horse in such a way that kept their rearing "under control". If it is a pain related issue, the pain could also get worse and cause the behaviour to get worse too.

If you really want to persevere with this then I would:
-Ask for vet records for the investigations the old owner did. As others have said "having everything done" means different things to different people. 
-If the horse is fine to school (check this with the previous seller too) then I would stick to just this for now. Ideally, I'd want all the history they could give you. When did the horse first rear, and how did they manage it.
-Find some really experienced help- I don't think just sending away to a pro is the answer necessarily. A pro may be able to manage the issue in ways you can't. But if you can find someone to work with you, then you may be able to improve the situation- but you still may not achieve a completely safe horse who never rears.
-Accept that there may always be things you can't do with this horse, and the horse may always need careful management.


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## Caol Ila (24 June 2020)

Ah, the good old egg cracking trick, the Godwin's law of message board threads about rearing. It's only a matter of time before someone suggests it. And it's usually second or third hand. "I knew somebody, or I knew somebody who knew somebody, who says they have successfully cured rearers with the magic egg..." Has anyone ever acually witnessed, first hand, anyone crazy enough try this? 

I personally wouldn't fancy my chances of succesfully cracking an egg over the poll of a horse standing still.


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## Pearlsasinger (24 June 2020)

Caol Ila said:



			Ah, the good old egg cracking trick, the Godwin's law of message board threads about rearing. It's only a matter of time before someone suggests it. And it's usually second or third hand. "I knew somebody, or I knew somebody who knew somebody, who says they have successfully cured rearers with the magic egg..." Has anyone ever acually witnessed, first hand, anyone crazy enough try this?

I personally wouldn't fancy my chances of succesfully cracking an egg over the poll of a horse standing still.
		
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I have always wondered where these ultra skillful riders keep the raw egg, obviously somewhere about their person, without breaking it, in order to be able to whip it out at just the right moment and crack it on the horse's poll, rather than anywhere else!


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## Wishfilly (24 June 2020)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I have always wondered where these ultra skillful riders keep the raw egg, obviously somewhere about their person, without breaking it, in order to be able to whip it out at just the right moment and crack it on the horse's poll, rather than anywhere else!  

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In my head, I have always imagined them holding it in their hand until just the right moment, somehow! I am clearly a terrible rider as I doubt I could manage to mount a horse whilst holding a raw egg without breaking it, never mind anything else!


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## Caol Ila (24 June 2020)

At my old barn in Colorado, we did a Christmas show with various events, including a competition where we had to ride while holding an egg on a spoon. Last man or woman standing with an intact egg on their spoon won. Suddenly, you regretted buying that bouncy dressage horse.

I think we were given the egg after we were mounted. I don't recall trying to clamber aboard while holding it, although that would have pushed the sport to more advanced levels.


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## thefarsideofthefield (24 June 2020)

Caol Ila said:



			I think we were given the egg after we were mounted. I don't recall trying to clamber aboard while holding it, although that would have pushed the sport to more advanced levels.
		
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There are levels of egg and spoon racing ? Like Novice to Advanced ? Well you learn something new every day …..


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## Cinnamontoast (24 June 2020)

Caol Ila said:



			Ah, the good old egg cracking trick, the Godwin's law of message board threads about rearing. It's only a matter of time before someone suggests it. And it's usually second or third hand. "I knew somebody, or I knew somebody who knew somebody, who says they have successfully cured rearers with the magic egg..." Has anyone ever acually witnessed, first hand, anyone crazy enough try this?

I personally wouldn't fancy my chances of succesfully cracking an egg over the poll of a horse standing still.
		
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There’s an older fellow who is a trainer on my yard. I know his son, who’s the partner of a mate. He says his dad was forever chucking egged at the horse’s head-to make it think it was bleeding, I think. This was while the son was on board, backing young horses. He says his dad was always doing this but often hit him instead. 🤣


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## splashgirl45 (24 June 2020)

i dont think i was nasty, just giving advice which i thought was helpful.  one of my relatives, a good rider, was on her own horse in an indoor school when someone came in with a naughty horse which upset my relatives horse.  the horse reared up and toppled over breaking her pelvis in 5 places.  the horse had never shown any signs before and has never reared again.  it  took a year to recover enough to ride again and part of that time was in a wheelchair so i have first hand knowledge of what can happen when a horse rears and i would suggest you take notice of the good advice on here..


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## Micropony (24 June 2020)

thefarsideofthefield said:



			There are levels of egg and spoon racing ? Like Novice to Advanced ? Well you learn something new every day …..
		
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I have never particularly enjoyed competing, but this is making me think I perhaps ought to reconsider!
(Sorry OP, I have nothing to add to the very sensible advice you've already been given about proper vet investigations and enlisting professional help).


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## Bonnie Allie (25 June 2020)

Apologies - late to the party but like OP, we took on a known rearer.  everyone told us we were crazy.  He either came to us or went into a can of dog food.

Went from a turd of a horse to a Grand Prix SJer.  His rearing was a learned behaviour that had originally stemmed from pain and being very confused and frightened.

Interestingly he always gave a clue he was getting nervous or about to rear.  His go to was to go out the left shoulder, then rear.  So we just used to get ahead of that and built in a circuit breaker when that happened which kept him calm and prevented him going up.

We had to have a proactive management set of tools when we took him to comps, so that he didn’t rear.

He lived to 28, was still jumping at 25 and those that told us to return him/pts suddenly started offering us money to buy him once he started winning.  D***heads.

Importantly he never gave away the rearing - we just prevented it happening. So you are not going to solve it, but you can manage it.


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## Old Side-Saddle Lady (25 June 2020)

stormox said:



			Not all horses with problems are in pain. Horses are feral animals and have instinctive responses. If this instinctive response to turn away from perceived danger and is rewarded by getting what they wat (ie fleeing the danger) there is every chance this behaviour will be repeated.
That is why it is so important that young horses are brought on by competent understanding sympathetic riders. A horse only has to be rewarded for rearing once (by rider dismoumting or turning home) and it will repeat the behaviour. After 3 times the behaviour is ingrained.
Good luck Freck. If you think she is going to rear slip your feet out of the stirrups (they wont help you stay on) so you can jump clear if necessary.
		
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Somewhere along the line it may be that the horse has discovered than if she rears the weight on her back goes away. Ooh, goodie, says horse toherself


Lillian_paddington said:



			On the chance that the seller is genuinely interested in the horse’s welfare and wants it to go to a suitable home. There’s not a legal case to return the horse, but I think it would be best to offer the seller the opportunity to take it. At least they already know and can handle the horse, and I’m assuming if they’ve only had it gone for a week they would be set up to take it back.
I totally agree the seller is not legally or even morally obliged to take the horse back, but on the chance that they would it would be better than selling on to a stranger who doesn’t know the horse. Better for the horse too if it can go back to an environment it knows.
		
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It's possible that the former owners had to sell this one to be able to afford another horse. They may not be sufficiently well-off to support two horses.


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## Lillian_paddington (25 June 2020)

Old Side-Saddle Lady said:



			Somewhere along the line it may be that the horse has discovered than if she rears the weight on her back goes away. Ooh, goodie, says horse toherself

It's possible that the former owners had to sell this one to be able to afford another horse. They may not be sufficiently well-off to support two horses.
		
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Yeah I agree, they might not want it back and there’s no reason for them to. I’d still ask them because it would be better for the horse to go back to a familiar environment with people who can manage her properly. No guarantee but it would be worth a try.


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## Old Side-Saddle Lady (25 June 2020)

FestiveFuzz said:



			OP I feel like you've had a bit of a tough time on this thread, but please know that it'll be coming from a good place. No matter how blunt the message there's an absolute wealth of experience on these forums and ultimately no one wants to see you get hurt.

FWIW I think it's a fair question to ask why you chose to buy a known rearer when one ride in your confidence is already dented from it rearing, but really it's all a bit of a moot point as you've bought the mare and no amount of dwelling is going to change that.

In your shoes I'd firstly want to be 100% certain the mare wasn't in pain, before I pushed the rearing issue any further. Can you speak to the previous owner and ask what tests they did to ascertain the mare isn't rearing in pain? I would ideally want the supporting vet reports to pass on to my own vet to review, followed by getting my own vet to check them over and possibly x-ray and bone scan depending on what tests had already been done. Ultimately for my own piece of mind I'd want to know with certainty that there are no physical reasons for the behaviour before putting time and money into training to fix the issue.

Once you know it truly is just a learned behaviour, I would enlist the help of a trainer that can help get you through this. I mean this with no disrespect, but the fact that she scared you on the first ride with her rearing means you'll be on a hiding to nothing trying to crack this alone, especially when the behaviour is long ingrained so it really is worth enlisting help early doors to prevent the behaviour escalating further and you either getting hurt or losing your confidence completely...start as you mean to go on and all that jazz.

I really hope you manage to get this sorted, for both you and your mare's sake. Horses are meant to be fun afterall!
		
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It occurs to me the horse may have had a very bad accident and injured her back. Pain to her back as a result of that may have healed but she remembers that


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## Old Side-Saddle Lady (25 June 2020)

This could be psychological. The horse may have had a serious accident in the which gave a lot of back pain but is now cured. She may remember that pain and be afraid that it will come back if she is ridden for too long (her idea of "too long"). Compared with humans horses have very simple minds. I know that sounds a bit mumbo-jumbo but while horses are intelligent by animal standards they do sometimes put 2+2 together and make the answer 1 and 1/2


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## hellfire (25 June 2020)

Micropony said:



			I have never particularly enjoyed competing, but this is making me think I perhaps ought to reconsider!
(Sorry OP, I have nothing to add to the very sensible advice you've already been given about proper vet investigations and enlisting professional help).
		
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I used to love a egg and spoon race on my pony as a kid. I’ve actually done it with adult riders to teach them steady hands. Hard boiled eggs though! Honestly it’s always ended in laughter. Give it a try you’ll be amazed.😂


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## eggs (25 June 2020)

If the horse NEVER rears when ridden in the school in all paces it would suggest that this is a learned behaviour which may or may not have initially had pain as a trigger.

I would get a full vet work up to rule out any pain issue and if all clear on that send the horse to some-one to retrain him.  I don't think OP that you have the skill set to retrain this horse.


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## Mule (25 June 2020)

Cortez said:



View attachment 50537


This is my leg after a horse sent in for reschooling with undisclosed behavioural problems reared over backwards on me. I am a professional rider and have successfully rehabbed many rearers. No one has been unkind to you, quite the opposite. Get. Some. Help.
		
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It's insane that people will hide behavioural problems. That could get someone killed


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## FestiveFuzz (25 June 2020)

Old Side-Saddle Lady said:



			It occurs to me the horse may have had a very bad accident and injured her back. Pain to her back as a result of that may have healed but she remembers that
		
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Who knows? It could honestly be a multitude of things. The only way the OP will know for sure is by getting the horse a thorough work-up by a vet, anything else would be just guess work.


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## Winters100 (25 June 2020)

mule said:



			It's insane that people will hide behavioural problems. That could get someone killed 

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Totally agree.  The best thing ever as a seller is when the buyer calls you a month or two after purchase, not to complain that they cannot manage the horse, or worse that there has been an injury, but to ask why you exaggerated any little problems as they find them to be not nearly as difficult as described.


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## LaurenBay (25 June 2020)

mule said:



			It's insane that people will hide behavioural problems. That could get someone killed 

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I once went to try a Horse for share, she failed to mention he is a bolter (not tanking, proper bolt) I was lucky I got away with a scarred leg.


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## sunnyone (25 June 2020)

I wonder if you should alter your style of hacking? If the mare is asked to do lots of transitions, half halts, turns on the forehand, occasional rein backs, mini jumps etc  her brain may be so actively engaged that she simply forgets about rearing. I'd also deliberately keep the hacks short for a while so that you stand more chance of a successful incident free ride and she begins to settle.


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## stormox (27 June 2020)

Have you posted on a dodgy dealer site on FB? About you are trying to return the horse? I have seen the videos. Well sat!  But having seen the rearing I am not sure you will be able to try the spinnin,g draw reins and kicking on as I suggested. She goes up too high too quickly. Please disregard my idea - it worked for me but feel it may not for you....


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## ycbm (27 June 2020)

stormox said:



			Have you posted on a dodgy dealer site on FB? About you are trying to return the horse? I have seen the videos. Well sat!  But having seen the rearing I am not sure you will be able to try the spinnin,g draw reins and kicking on as I suggested. She goes up too high too quickly. Please disregard my idea - it worked for me but feel it may not for you....
		
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I hope this isn't true.  Posting on Facebook  complaining that a horse you bought as a declared rearer rears? 


.


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## mini_b (27 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			I hope this isn't true.  Posting on Facebook  complaining that a horse you bought as a declared rearer rears?


.
		
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 I’d be very upset if I’d been tarred as a dodgy dealer if I had given a full disclosure of the horses issues and the buyer went ahead... really hope this isn’t OP :/


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## Ish2020 (27 June 2020)

stormox said:



			Have you posted on a dodgy dealer site on FB? About you are trying to return the horse? I have seen the videos. Well sat!  But having seen the rearing I am not sure you will be able to try the spinnin,g draw reins and kicking on as I suggested. She goes up too high too quickly. Please disregard my idea - it worked for me but feel it may not for you....
		
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It very unfair ruin someone’s name considering she  have bought with knowing horse has rearing problem. I don’t want to sound like a b#### but the op is clearly blaming the old owners instead of taking responsibility that she bought a horse with known issues.


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## Dyllymoo (27 June 2020)

Yep......

Got the same advice as on here. Left out the part where the horse reared on viewing.

And left out on here the advert states not a novice ride (she has said she is a novice) and the advert states horse naps.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/673069126109438/permalink/3045023175580676/


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## The Fuzzy Furry (27 June 2020)

Dyllymoo said:



			Yep......

Got the same advice as on here. Left out the part where the horse reared on viewing.

And left out on here the advert states not a novice ride (she has said she is a novice) and the advert states horse naps.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/673069126109438/permalink/3045023175580676/

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Can you screenshot as not everyone is on there and it's a closed group, if you are allowed to?


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## Dyllymoo (27 June 2020)

Initial post and advert of horse.


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## ycbm (27 June 2020)

Dyllymoo said:



			Initial post and advert of horse.

View attachment 50702


View attachment 50703

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There is nothing to suggest that is the horse or the person who started this thread is there?  That's a pony and the OP routinely refers to a horse.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (27 June 2020)

Oops! And this is definitely the OP?


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## stormox (27 June 2020)

No. Thats why I asked. But its Freck on here, the mares called Freckles. Both FB and this thread say its a mare and age 14... and she naps and rears... advert says 14.3hh which is a horse...


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## Dyllymoo (27 June 2020)

stormox said:



			No. Thats why I asked. But its Freck on here, the mares called Freckles. Both FB and this thread say its a mare and age 14... and she naps and rears... advert says 14.3hh which is a horse...
		
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This. And a few other details in the comments but im not trawling through them to screenshot.


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## ycbm (27 June 2020)

If that is you OP then shame on you! 

.


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## kingslane (27 June 2020)

It is the same horse and op


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## Red-1 (27 June 2020)

OP, having now seen 2 videos of you riding the horse, I urge you not to get on again.

On the FB page people are admiring your seat, and yes, you did stay in the saddle, but if a nappy horse spins right, it is imperative you turn it back to the left. You let the horse make a full circle then follow his pal. If a horse naps at a junction, no way should you simply turn tail and ride home.

Not that I am saying that you did the wrong thing at all in either situation, you were out of your depth and kept yourself safe. What I am saying is that, if you continue to 'try' to ride this horse, riding as you did will make the behaviour get bigger and bigger, until getting hurt is inevitable.

It will also make the horse double difficult to re-train.

I was once asked to be an expert witness in a court case against a seller. The horse was supposed to be a novice ride, and when trialled, he was great. Once home, the new, first time, owner set off for a ride alone. The ride started over a river, on a concrete slab with no sides. The horse was unsure, napped, was taken home. To be fair, we had to ride the Police horses over the same bridge, and have had fun and games with some of the youngsters, even with a lead, and they would still go on to be solid performers.

Next day, the owner plucked up courage again, but again could not get the horse over the river, so decided to set off the other way instead. She was a bit unsure, because of the issue at the river, and as soon as he was out of sight of the stables he napped again and, after bit of dithering, reared - the owner took him home.

After that the horse would not go out hacking. I went to have a look, a friend rode the horse. It was a naughty little sod! Reared, scraped the rider down a fence, reversed them right inside a bush. The horse was met with some whippy-do, because the rider was experienced and could see the horse was being a naughty sod. TBH, even if the horse was in some discomfort, rearing, scraping the rider against a fence ad reversing through a 20ft bush was not appropriate.

The rider was amazed when I said that yes, I would be an expert witness, but she may not like what I had to say. It is perfectly possible that she had taught it to nap and rear, single handedly. It could also be that the horse had reared/napped before, but I could not, hand on heart, say that it was certain. There were a few independent character witnesses for the horse (it was relatively local) saying that it had previously been well behaved.

She was shocked, but to be fair engaged a rider and trainer and the horse was soon (within a couple of weeks) on the straight and narrow. The horse went on to be her dream horse, went to shows, hacked alone etc. But, she had taken on board what was said, did checks, and paid many £££s for a good rider and trainer.

The way you are riding Freckles, it is only going one way. I also don't think you have a claim, as you have stated on here that she told you about the rearing, the advert says not for a novice and naps, you have even said that the horse reared 3 times when you tried him, and you coped.

This horse is different to the one that I spoke about as Freckles has been a rearer previously, all disclosed. It is not a recent habit that a good rider and trainer could quickly eliminate. Your riding is drawing much admiration, and I take my hat off to you, you did look secure, but please don't ride this horse again as the behaviour, IMO, will magnify.


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## Dwyran_gold (27 June 2020)

Honestly there are many problems I’ve dealt with with a horse, bolting, bucking, tanking off, refusing, napping like we all have experienced but when my young colt used to rear in hand (before he was gelded) it wasn’t something I would have liked to deal with in saddle and I’m really sorry and really feel for you but I agree with most people on here I just wouldn’t have got the horse in the first place, unless you know what to do to correct it and your confident riding through it.... I know I wouldn’t be xxx


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## kingslane (27 June 2020)

Im glad you said that! I was slightly confused why people were praising the riding when it was abundantly obvious it was ineffective at best...yes she stayed on but its not that difficult to sit to a rear...I actually think the horse is feeling very well/fresh and needs a firm hand and more time to settle etc...8 days is not very long and the fact it reared while she was viewing/riding it clearly didnt put her off which in itself is a bit of a worry!


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## scats (27 June 2020)

Just headed over to Fb for a look and from what I can see now, someone has made the Fb group aware of this thread.


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## Dwyran_gold (27 June 2020)

You can also get antirearing bits, there’s a lot of designs I’m not sure how they work. Oakridge have a few new designs that are apparently effective without been harsh https://oakridgeequestrian.co.nz/wtp-bits/benefits-wtp/


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## mini_b (27 June 2020)

Dwyran_gold said:



			You can also get antirearing bits, there’s a lot of designs I’m not sure how they work. Oakridge have a few new designs that are apparently effective without been harsh https://oakridgeequestrian.co.nz/wtp-bits/benefits-wtp/

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never heard of an “anti rearing bit” other than a chifney for leading and I’m not even keen on them. 
Seems like a sticking plaster for a deeper seated issue; much like not being able to stop strong horse, so stick in a stronger bit. 
Think this rearing and napping needs riding forward not stopped in the gob, these quick fixes are tempting for inexperienced rider/owners :/


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## Dwyran_gold (27 June 2020)

mini barnes said:



			never heard of an “anti rearing bit” other than a chifney for leading and I’m not even keen on them.
Seems like a sticking plaster for a deeper seated issue; much like not being able to stop strong horse, so stick in a stronger bit.
Think this rearing and napping needs riding forward not stopped in the gob, these quick fixes are tempting for inexperienced rider/owners :/
		
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yeah tbf I don’t think that links the right one but it’s the same bit, I just came across it while I was looking for training but for my youngster. 
it’s meant to help with loads of problems and make the airways clearer. It’s a new design apparently. X


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## Dwyran_gold (27 June 2020)

That’s the link I meant to post 


Dwyran_gold said:



			yeah tbf I don’t think that links the right one but it’s the same bit, I just came across it while I was looking for training but for my youngster.
it’s meant to help with loads of problems and make the airways clearer. It’s a new design apparently. X
		
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That’s the link I meant to post
https://www.oldmillsaddlery.com/en/...ring-Eggbutt-with-Extended-Plate/m-48888.aspx


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## Wishfilly (27 June 2020)

I think it's this one that might be intended to be an "anti-rearing bit" https://www.oldmillsaddlery.com/en/WTP-Bits-WTP-Ring-Bit-Extended-Plate/m-48886.aspx It looks a lot like a bit with a chifney attached and it's not something I'd want to ride in. 

I don't think any type of bit is likely to solve this issue.


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## Dwyran_gold (27 June 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			I think it's this one that might be intended to be an "anti-rearing bit" https://www.oldmillsaddlery.com/en/WTP-Bits-WTP-Ring-Bit-Extended-Plate/m-48886.aspx It looks a lot like a bit with a chifney attached and it's not something I'd want to ride in.

I don't think any type of bit is likely to solve this issue.
		
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that’s the one I saw! Lol I had to click on it to see what it was all about because it looks like a tongue 🤪
although the link I posted is the same anti rear but without the ring x


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## Wishfilly (27 June 2020)

Dwyran_gold said:



			that’s the one I saw! Lol I had to click on it to see what it was all about because it looks like a tongue 🤪
although the link I posted is the same anti rear but without the ring x
		
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I know the one you linked says it is supposed to be an "anti rear" bit, but I can't see how that bit is supposed to specifically prevent rearing except for through avoiding pinching or rubbing the roof of the mouth- which I don't think is a common cause of rearing anyway. I can see how the bit you linked might possibly be useful for some horses, but I don't think it's a solution to rearing in general.

To be fair, I haven't seen the bits before, but after a quick bit of googling, I can't see how they intend to prevent rearing/head-shaking etc except for not causing pain in the mouth (which is no bad thing). I'd like to see an article which fully explains how they are supposed to stop rearing- which a quick google didn't leave me to.

I think it's possible they might be helpful in some situations, but I very much don't think they would be a cure all, and I probably wouldn't advise someone to use one without at least discussing it with an instructor/professional first.

I think the ones with the chifney style ring underneath would be more likely to stop rearing BUT would be very harsh and potentially dangerous if used in the wrong hands- so it's not something I'd recommend to anyone.

This is obviously just my opinion based on an initial look at the bits, though, and I'd be interested to hear more if anyone knows more about them.


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## mini_b (27 June 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			I think it's this one that might be intended to be an "anti-rearing bit" https://www.oldmillsaddlery.com/en/WTP-Bits-WTP-Ring-Bit-Extended-Plate/m-48886.aspx It looks a lot like a bit with a chifney attached and it's not something I'd want to ride in.

I don't think any type of bit is likely to solve this issue.
		
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That bit is a serious looking bit of kit, I’d also be sceptical of something that made all of those bold claims. 

STOPS x, y AND z (yes, stops!) - translates to... “something you need if you are sh*tting your knicks at this horse you can’t cope with.”
This advert reads like barry Scott aka mr Cillit bang is shouting it.


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## Dwyran_gold (27 June 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			I know the one you linked says it is supposed to be an "anti rear" bit, but I can't see how that bit is supposed to specifically prevent rearing except for through avoiding pinching or rubbing the roof of the mouth- which I don't think is a common cause of rearing anyway. I can see how the bit you linked might possibly be useful for some horses, but I don't think it's a solution to rearing in general.

To be fair, I haven't seen the bits before, but after a quick bit of googling, I can't see how they intend to prevent rearing/head-shaking etc except for not causing pain in the mouth (which is no bad thing). I'd like to see an article which fully explains how they are supposed to stop rearing- which a quick google didn't leave me to.

I think it's possible they might be helpful in some situations, but I very much don't think they would be a cure all, and I probably wouldn't advise someone to use one without at least discussing it with an instructor/professional first.

I think the ones with the chifney style ring underneath would be more likely to stop rearing BUT would be very harsh and potentially dangerous if used in the wrong hands- so it's not something I'd recommend to anyone.

This is obviously just my opinion based on an initial look at the bits, though, and I'd be interested to hear more if anyone knows more about them.
		
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yeah I’d never seen them before, when I first came across them they were been trialed and were offering them for free for 30 days or something like that for feedback etc. I’m not a bit expert so I don’t know how they work but for what they claim it does is pretty good if it does do those things x


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## Wishfilly (27 June 2020)

mini barnes said:



			That bit is a serious looking bit of kit, I’d also be sceptical of something that made all of those bold claims.

STOPS x, y AND z (yes, stops!) - translates to... “something you need if you are sh*tting your knicks at this horse you can’t cope with.”
This advert reads like barry Scott aka mr Cillit bang is shouting it.
		
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The most generous reading I can give it is that the bit can stop some pain/breathing issues for horses with an unusually shaped palette- and therefore may stop associated issues such as head-shaking and rearing in those very narrow circumstances, but the claims in general are very bold, and probably very overstated.



Dwyran_gold said:



			yeah I’d never seen them before, when I first came across them they were been trialed and were offering them for free for 30 days or something like that for feedback etc. I’m not a bit expert so I don’t know how they work but for what they claim it does is pretty good if it does do those things x
		
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See above. I do think the ones without the chifney style ring might stop pain in some circumstances which would help some horses. 

But I can't work out how they are meant to help horses with e.g. back related pain that causes them to rear or that rear due to a behavioural issue. The claims seem very bold, and I don't really buy them. Lots of gadgets claim to solve all sorts of problems, but in reality only help with that problem in very limited circumstances.


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## mini_b (27 June 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			The most generous reading I can give it is that the bit can stop some pain/breathing issues for horses with an unusually shaped palette- and therefore may stop associated issues such as head-shaking and rearing in those very narrow circumstances, but the claims in general are very bold, and probably very overstated.
		
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I do agree -
One was just getting ones wind up! 😆


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## Dwyran_gold (27 June 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			The most generous reading I can give it is that the bit can stop some pain/breathing issues for horses with an unusually shaped palette- and therefore may stop associated issues such as head-shaking and rearing in those very narrow circumstances, but the claims in general are very bold, and probably very overstated.



See above. I do think the ones without the chifney style ring might stop pain in some circumstances which would help some horses.

But I can't work out how they are meant to help horses with e.g. back related pain that causes them to rear or that rear due to a behavioural issue. The claims seem very bold, and I don't really buy them. Lots of gadgets claim to solve all sorts of problems, but in reality only help with that problem in very limited circumstances.
		
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absolutely but if the horse has had every avenue thoroughly examined medical wise then there no harm in trying... better a bit that might make a difference than PTS xxx


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## mini_b (27 June 2020)

Dwyran_gold said:



			absolutely but if the horse has had every avenue thoroughly examined medical wise then there no harm in trying... better a bit that might make a difference than PTS xxx
		
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if it had got to the stage where medical was ruled out, then where a pro can’t cope or PTS; Unfortunately I’m not sure a bit could magically fix it. I will happily 100% be corrected however!


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## Cortez (27 June 2020)

Rearing is the ultimate "I won't go forward"; first there is napping, then running backwards, then rearing. Trying to address this with a bit is working on the wrong end. The bit shown is a fancy version of a racing spoon bit, which works to keep the tongue and soft palate in the correct place, combined with a ring, which does the same thing - both specialist racing bits. I can't see that having the slightest effect on a horse that wants to go up.


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## mini_b (27 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			Rearing is the ultimate "I won't go forward"; first there is napping, then running backwards, then rearing. Trying to address this with a bit is working on the wrong end. The bit shown is a fancy version of a racing spoon bit, which works to keep the tongue and soft palate in the correct place, combined with a ring, which does the same thing - both specialist racing bits. I can't see that having the slightest effect on a horse that wants to go up.
		
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cortez - articulating my thoughts concisely 👍🏼 Couldn’t quite fluff it out myself.


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## Equi (28 June 2020)

oldmill do a lot of kit specific to racing/trotting horses. I highly doubt they would ever recommend this to a novice etc. I just felt the need to say that incase anyone thought badly of the saddlery.


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## twiggy2 (28 June 2020)

I love that both the bits claim to be 'the only bit in the world to stop displacement of the soft palate'!
There are an awful lot of claims in those write ups.


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## Lillian_paddington (28 June 2020)

OP, if that is you on the fb post - you can’t make her take the pony back. Good on you for asking, but they said no, and with private sellers they only have to describe the horse honestly, which as you say they have done. Best thing now is the sell the horse on - or pay a professional to ride her. If she was better in her old home she may just need a bit of settling in time with a confident, calm pro. At the very least it will make her easier to sell on.


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## Dwyran_gold (28 June 2020)

twiggy2 said:



			I love that both the bits claim to be 'the only bit in the world to stop displacement of the soft palate'!
There are an awful lot of claims in those write ups.
		
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twiggy2 said:



			I love that both the bits claim to be 'the only bit in the world to stop displacement of the soft palate'!
There are an awful lot of claims in those write ups.
		
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doesn’t it just! I love how it doesn’t say ‘help prevent’ just says ‘stops’ like it some kind of miracle cure for everything lol x


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## ester (28 June 2020)

I'm not entirely sure what I was expecting, probably more of the bunny hops at a gate there was also a video of but this rear in particular was concerning and OP I really don't want you to get hurt by continuing.


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## scats (28 June 2020)

ester said:



			I'm not entirely sure what I was expecting, probably more of the bunny hops at a gate there was also a video of but this rear in particular was concerning and OP I really don't want you to get hurt by continuing. 





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I didn’t see that one.  OP, if you are still there, please, please do not continue with this Horse.


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## Gloi (28 June 2020)

ester said:



			I'm not entirely sure what I was expecting, probably more of the bunny hops at a gate there was also a video of but this rear in particular was concerning and OP I really don't want you to get hurt by continuing.
		
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That's not good that horse looks really unstable and she's out with another horse too so its not napping because its hacking alone. She needs to stop riding the horse before she gets hurt. I wouldn't get on it.


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## Meowy Catkin (28 June 2020)

That is seriously dangerous. Please don't get back on this horse OP.


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## MiniMilton (28 June 2020)

If that's the pony in the photo, I feel really sorry for the OP. But the seller is absolutely not in the wrong. It was fully disclosed. The buyer was immensely silly to purchase this horse with a known dangerous vice. But I can't help but feel sorry for anyone with a horse that rears like that and I absolutely wouldn't let anyone on that horse. Full vet investigation before starting slowly with a pro. 
Did the OP get the horse vetted? Nightmare scenario to be in, but again the seller is not at fault and should not be expected to take this horse back.


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## ester (28 June 2020)

I will clarify that shot came off a video that the OP posted on the dodgy dealers page.


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## Wishfilly (28 June 2020)

Dwyran_gold said:



			absolutely but if the horse has had every avenue thoroughly examined medical wise then there no harm in trying... better a bit that might make a difference than PTS xxx
		
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I can sort of see where you're coming from here- but I just don't think it's likely to be true. If there's something causing discomfort in the horse's mouth, then medical examinations will pick this up, or if OP is using a bit that's likely to be uncomfortable for her horse, then I think a pro would pick this up very quickly. In my opinion, that bit could only possibly stop rearing due to a discomfort issue in the mouth- it's not going to have any effect on a horse that's going up for behavioural or other pain related reasons.

Having seen the picture Esther has shared, the rears really look quite dangerous, so I would argue there is harm in continuing to persevere- imagine if the rider and horse went over onto the cars behind them.

I am not saying PTS has to be the outcome- but if it is behavioural, then I don't believe gadgets are going to be the solution, and continuing to ride the horse is putting the horse, rider and other people in danger.


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## MagicMelon (28 June 2020)

Freck.19 said:



			Thanks for your sarcastic, unhelpful comment. It doesn’t bother me that much that it made me not buy her, as I think I can work through it. I’d just appreciate some helpful answers/ tips or people with experience dealing with this.
		
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Thing is, its a bit terrifying you bought a horse knowing its issues and you dont have any experience of it or have any plan as to how to deal with it... Id never buy a horse with a particular issue that I didnt firmly believe I could sort without having to ask for advice straight away. To be fair, Id never buy a horse who reared or napped anyway, Ive had one who did this (not disclosed prior to buying and I dont return horses, I try to work it out) - bloody hard issues to fix!  And the fact that the horse has only done the rearing/messing about once so far and you've already lost your confidence isnt a great start. If I were you, I think the only option is to hack out with someone else (the horse I had who reared and napped ONLY did it when hacking alone, never any other time so it could sort it) OR get someone else to ride it for a while but honestly by 14, it'll be a really hard habit to crack and even then I bet the horse will try it on nown and again so if you're not on top of it all the time you'll just end up going downhill again. When does the horse do this, is it ONLY on hacks?  If so, Id honestly just consider not hacking. I pretty much gave up hacking one of mine on this basis - it wasnt fun and if a horse isnt really trustworthy on the road then its bloody dangerous to others as well, I just schooled instead and never took the horse out hacking. Problem solved in one way! Unless of course, you bought the horse solely TO hack...

Totally out of interest, why did you buy the horse OP?  At £2,500 its not even cheap considering... you could have got something more sensible for that price?  I honesntly just dont get why people buy horses like this when there's so many lovely horses out there without these issues.

On reading the facebook thing - it says clearly on the advert NEEDS COMPANY TO HACK so why oh why oh why would you take the horse on its first hack (or ANY hack) on your own?? But then again, that video screenshot shows the horse rearing in company too. That looks utterly terrifying with all those cars around if Im honest.


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## Dwyran_gold (28 June 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			I can sort of see where you're coming from here- but I just don't think it's likely to be true. If there's something causing discomfort in the horse's mouth, then medical examinations will pick this up, or if OP is using a bit that's likely to be uncomfortable for her horse, then I think a pro would pick this up very quickly. In my opinion, that bit could only possibly stop rearing due to a discomfort issue in the mouth- it's not going to have any effect on a horse that's going up for behavioural or other pain related reasons.

Having seen the picture Esther has shared, the rears really look quite dangerous, so I would argue there is harm in continuing to persevere- imagine if the rider and horse went over onto the cars behind them.

I am not saying PTS has to be the outcome- but if it is behavioural, then I don't believe gadgets are going to be the solution, and continuing to ride the horse is putting the horse, rider and other people in danger.
		
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I completely agree, it’s like I said a bit further back in the thread, Personally it’s a no no for me, I wouldn’t have the confidence to ride a know rearing horse like that one but then I read she didn’t find the posts helpful and I remembered coming across that bit So thought I’d share, whether it works or not, how it works, I have no idea xx


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## Gloi (28 June 2020)

Sadly, let this thread be a warning to any novice going out buying a horse without a trusted experienced person with them who would have told them not to buy it.
To be honest I wouldn't even want to ask a professional to ride it, just because they are being paid doesn't mean they should have to risk their neck.


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## Misty 2020 (28 June 2020)

she deleted her post and admin of the group address it , The girl is 18 apparently is a completely novice and the horse was advertised as a not a novice ride . Previous owner won’t take the horse back. As she stated in her  Facebook post.  To be honest my opinion is she completely over horsed herself and is now terrified  of the horse and is trying her best to force the old owners to take the horse back. Hence badmouthing the previous owners on Facebook. 

I hope someone reading will learn from this girls mistake and not make the same mistake. The op is now stuck with a horse that she can’t ride and will cost a lot of money to fix. I hope the horse doesn’t suffer as a result because i have got a feeling the horse will be past to piller to post.


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## Dwyran_gold (28 June 2020)

scats said:



			Just headed over to Fb for a look and from what I can see now, someone has made the Fb group aware of this thread.
		
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what fb group is it?


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## ester (28 June 2020)

I think both FB posts are now deleted.


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## Cortez (28 June 2020)

ester said:



			I think both FB posts are now deleted.
		
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And the OP hasn't engaged on here for quite a long time now....not getting the response she wanted I would guess. Poor horse.


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## doodle (28 June 2020)

Yep there is no point continuing with this post. OP has disappeared/decided not to reply as she didn’t get the answers she wanted.


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## Dwyran_gold (28 June 2020)

I really feel for OP to be honest, we’ve all been young and looking for our first horse, the excitement and romanticising the situation. I was 11 and relied on my trainer and the vet to help me choose, if I didn’t have that help I’d have possibly ended up with the wrong horse myself. Even now at 33 I’d take someone experienced with me.
that picture is terrifying, I couldn’t do it and I don’t know the OP but I’m worried for her safety, that’s no little ‘napping’ that’s about as dangerous as it gets.


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## Amymay (28 June 2020)

I don’t think the OP will get back on the horse.

The real loser here is, of course, the horse.  What on earth were the sellers thinking selling to someone so novice?  Or to anyone really for that matter?


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## Dwyran_gold (28 June 2020)

Amymay said:



			I don’t think the OP will get back on the horse.

The real loser here is, of course, the horse.  What on earth were the sellers thinking selling to someone so novice?  Or to anyone really for that matter?
		
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I thought the same thing. I think they must have wanted rid of the horse themselves. I know I’d take my horse straight back and refund even with full disclosure in the first place if I thought they’d be sold on again and it wasn’t the right home.. but then I love my horses! X


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## stormox (28 June 2020)

Dwyran_gold said:



			I thought the same thing. I think they must have wanted rid of the horse themselves. I know I’d take my horse straight back and refund even with full disclosure in the first place if I thought they’d be sold on again and it wasn’t the right home.. but then I love my horses! X
		
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But giving a refund rather depends on if you still have the money -   but you may not, bills, covid new horse - easy to spend money straight away!!
I actually posted on this thread how to deal with a rearer and thought I was helping the OP. But when someone showed me the video I posted here again saying dont take any notice of what I said, those rears are far worse than I thought theyd be! I hope OP has read my latest post even though she hasnt posted again.
,


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## Dwyran_gold (28 June 2020)

stormox said:



			But giving a refund rather depends on if you still have the money -   but you may not, bills, covid new horse - easy to spend money straight away!!
I actually posted on this thread how to deal with a rearer and thought I was helping the OP. But when someone showed me the video I posted here again saying dont take any notice of what I said, those rears are far worse than I thought theyd be! I hope OP has read my latest post even though she hasnt posted again.
,
		
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true but I would do what I could to take back my horse out of the wrong hands, that’s me anyway but then easy for me to say as I would be in the position to give back the money.
I have never dealt with a rearer in saddle and I wouldn’t want too.
And as much as the seller gave ‘full disclosure’ I can’t help thinking this big of a rear was played down and the OP probably thought the little front feet off the ground rears at the viewing was as bad as it got. Who would buy a horse that did that (in the photo) at a viewing 😱


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## Nari (28 June 2020)

Maybe with an experienced and capable rider it doesn't go up like this? Maybe OP wasn't honest about her ability with the sellers? There are so many maybes with this post.


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## Cortez (28 June 2020)

Dwyran_gold said:



			true but I would do what I could to take back my horse out of the wrong hands, that’s me anyway but then easy for me to say as I would be in the position to give back the money.
I have never dealt with a rearer in saddle and I wouldn’t want too.
And as much as the seller gave ‘full disclosure’ I can’t help thinking this big of a rear was played down and the OP probably thought the little front feet off the ground rears at the viewing was as bad as it got. Who would buy a horse that did that (in the photo) at a viewing 😱
		
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The rears the horse is doing now are not relevant to whatever rears it was doing at the time of purchase. A propensity to rear can be amplified by whoever is riding it, or indeed eliminated. Some riders are capable of getting rears out of completely saintly horses too.....

i don't feel particularly sorry for the OP. Silly girl, but I do feel deeply sorry for the horse.


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## Flicker (28 June 2020)

Dwyran_gold said:



			I thought the same thing. I think they must have wanted rid of the horse themselves. I know I’d take my horse straight back and refund even with full disclosure in the first place if I thought they’d be sold on again and it wasn’t the right home.. but then I love my horses! X
		
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To be fair to the seller, they did fully disclose the issue.  Plus the horse reared when the buyer was trying her and she STILL wanted to buy her.  

We also don’t know their circumstances, and they may not be able to take the horse back.  Personally, if I had a horse that reared like that, I’d PTS but I also don‘t want to judge.  Tricky one.


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## hopscotch bandit (28 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			I'm not sure why people are taking about returning this horse. She was sold in good faith with full disclosure,  there is no basis whatsoever that I can see to return her to the seller.

.
		
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I was wondering the same. Buyer beware and all that. To me if a horse rears it is only for one reason and that's due to pain. Obviously you get the odd exception, (i.e being overheld at a fun ride when seeing others in the distance is one example I can think of, waiting in the start box at a O.D.E is another) i.e if it's in a state of great excitement and then that is understandable on the odd occasion. But everyday. No.

It wouldn't matter how much i liked a horse I tried out, if iwas told it bucked or reared or it displayed either of these traits in my presence I'd bolt in the other direction.


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## Dwyran_gold (28 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			The rears the horse is doing now are not relevant to whatever rears it was doing at the time of purchase. A propensity to rear can be amplified by whoever is riding it, or indeed eliminated. Some riders are capable of getting rears out of completely saintly horses too.....

i don't feel particularly sorry for the OP. Silly girl, but I do feel deeply sorry for the horse.
		
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completely agree, I’d have never got the horse but looking through the eyes of a novice (and taking reassurance from the seller)  I don’t think she’d have got this horse if she knew that it would be as bad as it is... I mean a lot of people deal with rearing horses but that photo is next level, I honestly thought she meant half off the ground initially not vertical and the advert said the horse was sound in company and the OP is in company on the photo...


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## Cowpony (28 June 2020)

I went to see a horse years ago, which reared twice during the viewing. I declined to get on it. But then I was much older than the OP, and well aware of my abilities, or rather lack of them! I knew I wouldn't enjoy a rearer and couldn't cope with one. The owner tried to tell me all the horses were unsettled because a foal had been born at the yard the night before. Ooooookaaaaay.........Still not getting on it!


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## Dwyran_gold (28 June 2020)

Flicker said:



			To be fair to the seller, they did fully disclose the issue.  Plus the horse reared when the buyer was trying her and she STILL wanted to buy her.

We also don’t know their circumstances, and they may not be able to take the horse back.  Personally, if I had a horse that reared like that, I’d PTS but I also don‘t want to judge.  Tricky one.
		
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Exactly If it were my horse I sold, I’d refund and have it back. I’d never risk my horses life but it sounds to me like they wanted rid. Then again, we don’t know what the seller said to the novice or what the novice said to the seller, I can however see that the horse is described as ‘sound’ hacking in company but the OP is in company in that terrifying photo... just this alone is not full disclosure. Perhaps the horse never did that with previous owners in company, still though it’s a reason to accept the horse back as it wasn’t described as acting like this in company. x


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## hopscotch bandit (28 June 2020)

Cowpony said:



			I went to see a horse years ago, which reared twice during the viewing. I declined to get on it. But then I was much older than the OP, and well aware of my abilities, or rather lack of them! I knew I wouldn't enjoy a rearer and couldn't cope with one. The owner tried to tell me all the horses were unsettled because a foal had been born at the yard the night before. Ooooookaaaaay.........Still not getting on it!
		
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My friend went to try one, very sensibly asked to see it ridden, no sooner had the woman climbed the mounting block and put her foot in the stirrup the horse reared and went over backwards knocking the poor woman out.

Friend had to run and find her hubby as she couldn't give accurate directions to the ambulance as she was only vaguely aware of the address. Poor woman had various broken bones and said to my  friend later when she rang to enquire how she was recovering that the horse had never done anything like that before. My friend was inclined to believe  her, if it had, it was obvious the woman wouldn't have dared got on it!


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## Wishfilly (28 June 2020)

Dwyran_gold said:



			Exactly If it were my horse I sold, I’d refund and have it back. I’d never risk my horses life but it sounds to me like they wanted rid. Then again, we don’t know what the seller said to the novice or what the novice said to the seller, I can however see that the horse is described as ‘sound’ hacking in company but the OP is in company in that terrifying photo... just this alone is not full disclosure. Perhaps the horse never did that with previous owners in company, still though it’s a reason to accept the horse back as it wasn’t described as acting like this in company. x
		
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To be fair, we don't know if the horse has reared in company before- it's not impossible things have gotten worse during the short time the horse was with the OP. If you're going to tell people a horse rears (and it rears with someone whilst they are viewing it), I can't believe you'd then lie about it hacking out in company.

I don't think they should have sold the horse to the OP- I don't think they should have sold it at all if it's gone up like that with them in any situation. But maybe they couldn't keep the horse for financial reasons, and if they have managed the issue ok themselves, then they might think it would be better to sell on with full disclosure than PTS. PTS an apparently healthy horse is a really hard decision to make.

Private sellers don't have to accept a horse back and you have no idea about people's circumstances- if they were e.g. previously on livery, they may have nowhere to put the horse now, or they may not have the money available to refund. 

I feel hugely sorry for the horse in all of this though.


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## Bellaboo18 (28 June 2020)

Dwyran_gold said:



			I really feel for OP to be honest, we’ve all been young and looking for our first horse, the excitement and romanticising the situation. I was 11 and relied on my trainer and the vet to help me choose, if I didn’t have that help I’d have possibly ended up with the wrong horse myself. Even now at 33 I’d take someone experienced with me.
that picture is terrifying, I couldn’t do it and I don’t know the OP but I’m worried for her safety, that’s no little ‘napping’ that’s about as dangerous as it gets.
		
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This isn't her first horse, she refers to her previous horses.


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## Gloi (28 June 2020)

It says on that FB post that it's her first horse purchase


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## stormox (28 June 2020)

Gloi said:



			It says on that FB post that it's her first horse purchase
		
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Maybe its the first one she bought on her own. She does say about her previous horse being wound up by hacking with her friend.


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## Cortez (28 June 2020)

Gloi said:



			It says on that FB post that it's her first horse purchase
		
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I wouldn't necessarily be accepting everything the OP says on face value.....


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## Gloi (28 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			I wouldn't necessarily be accepting everything the OP says on face value.....
		
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well no


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## Gingerwitch (28 June 2020)

I still cannot understand why someone would try a horse and still buy it if it reared or bolted with you (not the seller) at the trial.   Napped maybe,  bucked maybe but reared if saddle fitted - no way.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (28 June 2020)

That photo makes my blood run cold

I haven't commented as I dont have any experience in rearers (fortunately!)

The closest I've come is when I took H out hacking on my own for one of the first times, he used to be in an rs. There was a flattened cardboard box in the road and he refused to go past it. I was trying to drive him on but he had planted. He then felt like he was rocking back slightly and while I'm 99% sure he wouldn't rear the slight rocking back motion and the fact I was on my own on the road having never needed to sit a rear that 1% that he *could * have gone up after the rocking back lead to me turning for home as we weren't getting past the box safely 

We got over the hacking alone issue by me getting off and leading him if he went to plant I'd walk on foot with him for about 100m or so and then get back on, I'd also use someone on foot/ a bike. The getting off wasnt me giving in as he still had to continue the hack just a bit was on foot. Though with a rearer like that it would scare me that there would be the possibility it would go up when I was on foot. We would also do quite a bit of trotting so he was thinking forward and doing shortish hacks and turning back while there were no issues

I think the advert looks honest and if you look at the photo the rearing horse looks like it is in front so that may be why? Perhaps it is fine in company as long as it is behind? In the early days of trying to get mine hacking alone he was still nappy in front fortunately no rears though just planting. 

Like many others on this thread if I was told the horse reared I would be running extremely quickly in the opposite direction. I wouldn't have the skill to deal with it and it can cause serious injury especially if it goes over. The picture makes me think its reared on OP more than once as the original post said it carted her into a field then reared in the picture it's on the road? Rearing is a vice I wouldn't touch

Could you ask the seller how they used to deal with it if you haven't completely burnt bridges but I'd be wanting urgent help but then I wouldn't have bought a disclosed rearer in the first place, I'd have a lot more sympathy if OP had bought it seller hadnt been honest then it started rearing. I wouldn't be hacking again does it behave in the school? If so I'd stick to that or hack behind someone if it doesnt rear in that situation.


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## ycbm (28 June 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			I still cannot understand why someone would try a horse and still buy it if it reared or bolted with you (not the seller) at the trial.   Napped maybe,  bucked maybe but reared if saddle fitted - no way.
		
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I suspect it was cheap and she has found out why.


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## Arzada (28 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			I suspect it was cheap and she has found out why.
		
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£2500


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## Dwyran_gold (28 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			I suspect it was cheap and she has found out why.
		
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£2500 is cheap at the moment x


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## ycbm (28 June 2020)

Arzada said:



			£2500
		
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I know the market was insanely hot three weeks ago,  but honestly,  who pays that for a horse they have been told rears? The OP has been naive  and had to learn a very expensive lesson,  i feel a bit sorry for her. 

.


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## Bellaboo18 (28 June 2020)

Gloi said:



			It says on that FB post that it's her first horse purchase
		
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Not much in her FB post is true


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## Bellaboo18 (28 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			I know the market was insanely hot the weeks ago,  but honestly,  who pays that for a horse they have been told rears? The OP has been naive  and had to learn a very expensive lesson,  i feel a bit sorry for her. 

.
		
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See I could feel sorry for her at first. 
She bought a horse with a known issue which she thought she could overcome. So over confidence and naive- hardly a crime. 
The bit I struggle to sympathise with is posting on Facebook acting like the victim, changing her story and trying to blame the previous owner. At no point has she admitted to seeing she's made a huge mistake. 

She must feel very stuck but all I can really think is poor horse. I wish she'd come back, admit she's made a mistake and ask for help. I don't know where she's from but if I could help, I would.


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## Gingerwitch (28 June 2020)

Bellaboo18 said:



			See I could feel sorry for her at first. 
She bought a horse with a known issue which she thought she could overcome. So over confidence and naive- hardly a crime. 
The bit I struggle to sympathise with is posting on Facebook acting like the victim, changing her story and trying to blame the previous owner. At no point has she admitted to seeing she's made a huge mistake. 

She must feel very stuck but all I can really think is poor horse. I wish she'd come back, admit she's made a mistake and ask for help. I don't know where she's from but if I could help, I would.
		
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I agree,  but it's always the horse that suffers,  it's why I struggle to sell.


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## laura_nash (28 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			And the OP hasn't engaged on here for quite a long time now....not getting the response she wanted I would guess. Poor horse.
		
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TBF having seen that screenshot its possible she can't respond as she's now in hospital.


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## Amymay (28 June 2020)

laura_nash said:



			TBF having seen that screenshot its possible she can't respond as she's now in hospital.
		
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She was on the forum two minutes ago 😉


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## TheresaW (28 June 2020)

My Dolly can nap. It involves planting, spinning, and running backwards (usually only happens when there is a ditch behind her). I’ve owned her for 18 years, and in all that time, she has reared once. It was just a little couple of feet off the floor rear, and that was because she’d run backwards into a hedge that had a wall in it, so nowhere else to go but a little bit up. I would never buy a known rearer.


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## Chinchilla (28 June 2020)

kingslane said:



			the fact it reared while she was viewing/riding it clearly didnt put her off which in itself is a bit of a worry!
		
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Cortez said:



			i don't feel particularly sorry for the OP. Silly girl, but I do feel deeply sorry for the horse.
		
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I second this. Actually very surprised at any 18yo who thinks they're experienced enough to have bought a horse alone with no input (apparently, from an experienced adult for that money.....I wouldn't do it, but what do I know. 

*Ducks and runs*


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## Nari (28 June 2020)

I don't feel remotely sorry for her. I should imagine she mislead the seller about her ability and experience because she was stupid enough to think she could do better than they had. When it went wrong she then bad mouthed the seller on here - a busy forum - and fb, and who knows where else. How must the seller feel if it's been brought to their attention and people have believed the OPs story? And story it almost certainly is, at least in parts, given the inconsistencies. No, I feel sorry for the horse and the seller to a lesser degree, but not the OP.


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## Bellaboo18 (28 June 2020)

I think we're all in agreement but it'd be nice to see OP come back and offer her some help wouldn't it for the horses sake as much as anything?


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## Nari (28 June 2020)

Bellaboo18 said:



			I think we're all in agreement but it'd be nice to see OP come back and offer her some help wouldn't it for the horses sake as much as anything?
		
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I suspect she doesn't really want help. I think she wants everyone to tell her what a fantastic rider she is and how badly she's been treated by the seller.


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## Gingerwitch (28 June 2020)

You do have  to feel sorry for the sellers especially if they have already purchased a new horse and can't afford her back,  but must admit if the horse had been one of mine she would be back home by now.


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## Julie Ole Girl (28 June 2020)

I feel for you.  I bought a 10 yo ISH last year, stunning looking, he didn't rear but bucked me off 3 times and I just lost my confidence. I am 61, I was lucky to sell him to a young man who loves him  and I was honest about his quirks, and he's not bothered. I cut my losses, horses should make you happy and I wasn't at all with him.


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## Nari (28 June 2020)

Julie Ole Girl said:



			I feel for you.  I bought a 10 yo ISH last year, stunning looking, he didn't rear but bucked me off 3 times and I just lost my confidence. I am 61, I was lucky to sell him to a young man who loves him  and I was honest about his quirks, and he's not bothered. I cut my losses, horses should make you happy and I wasn't at all with him.
		
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How would you have felt if, the first time the horse had bucked, he'd then plastered it all over what is probably the busiest horse forum and a well known fb page that you'd mis-sold the horse and he felt you should take it back and refund him? I know I would be furious, and after the stories told even if I could afford to have it back I'd be worried I'd be stuck with it for good since the horse was labelled as a bad rearer and I would now have an undeserved reputation for dishonesty.


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## FestiveFuzz (28 June 2020)

Whilst I’m absolutely not condoning OP’s behaviour I can kinda see how this might have happened. If I think back to when I was 18, I absolutely didn’t know what I didn’t know. Add to that a childhood of being the one drafted in to sit on the tricky ponies, I reckon I most definitely had an inflated opinion of my ability back then. At that age you bounce, and don’t realise your stickability is more luck than judgement half the time.

OP sees the horse advertised and whilst they know it’s a rearer, they think well if a 13yo can handle it, at 18 they most definitely can. Also for some inexplicable reason that I’ve never understood, it seems popular for some circles to post pictures of them sitting rears etc. So there was possibly an element of showing off too. Then reality hits and they realise they’re completely out of their depth, but pride makes it difficult to face facts so they blame others instead.

I just hope in all this the horse doesn’t end up suffering.


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## Dwyran_gold (28 June 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			You do have  to feel sorry for the sellers especially if they have already purchased a new horse and can't afford her back,  but must admit if the horse had been one of mine she would be back home by now.
		
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yes same!


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## Dwyran_gold (28 June 2020)

FestiveFuzz said:



			Whilst I’m absolutely not condoning OP’s behaviour I can kinda see how this might have happened. If I think back to when I was 18, I absolutely didn’t know what I didn’t know. Add to that a childhood of being the one drafted in to sit on the tricky ponies, I reckon I most definitely had an inflated opinion of my ability back then. At that age you bounce, and don’t realise your stickability is more luck than judgement half the time.

OP sees the horse advertised and whilst they know it’s a rearer, they think well if a 13yo can handle it, at 18 they most definitely can. Also for some inexplicable reason that I’ve never understood, it seems popular for some circles to post pictures of them sitting rears etc. So there was possibly an element of showing off too. Then reality hits and they realise they’re completely out of their depth, but pride makes it difficult to face facts so they blame others instead.

I just hope in all this the horse doesn’t end up suffering.
		
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I completely agree we were all brave kids once... until we realised otherwise x


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## FestiveFuzz (28 June 2020)

Dwyran_gold said:



			I completely agree we were all brave kids once... until we realised otherwise x
		
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So true!


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## splashgirl45 (28 June 2020)

i was the same FF and DG,  i would get on anything, even a rearer and managed to survive,  as i am now an oldie i need safe and sound now,  the wisdom of age and the realisation that i dont bounce now...


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## FestiveFuzz (28 June 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			i was the same FF and DG,  i would get on anything, even a rearer and managed to survive,  as i am now an oldie i need safe and sound now,  the wisdom of age and the realisation that i dont bounce now...
		
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I do have to laugh when I look back at some of the horses I rode when I was younger, how I didn’t end up properly hurt at times is anyone’s guess! These days I’m the same as you, give me safe and sound any day.


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## Misty 2020 (28 June 2020)

I also was the same  ff and dg I used to ride crazy horses and ponies when I was younger .  I also nearly bought a 3 year old unbroken horse lucky I have  very sensible  parents that didn’t allow me to buy the horse.


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## Tihamandturkey (28 June 2020)

Nari said:



			I suspect she doesn't really want help. I think she wants everyone to tell her what a fantastic rider she is and how badly she's been treated by the seller.
		
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I think this thread could turn into a witch hunt quite easily - with this comment & the one by Amymay earlier tbh 🤨


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## splashgirl45 (28 June 2020)

someone bought a horse to see the trainer at my yard as it reared and she didnt know what to do.  i offered to ride it (i was 16) and the trainer  told me he wouldnt allow anyone to get on it to sort it out and told the girl to get a vets opinion first.  i remember i was most put out and felt the trainer  was being difficult,  how wrong was i


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## View (28 June 2020)

I’m another that as a youngster used to ride lwharecwr cane into the dealer’s yard attached to the riding school. But we were never allowed to get into a rearer until any pain issues were resolved. Anything not showing pain that one lad couldn’t ride forwards and through it in a couple of seconds was shot. The dealer had a reputation to protect and didn’t want horses passed from pillar to post.

But now I’m older and definitely don’t bounce I would never try it.


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## Amymay (28 June 2020)

Tihama said:



			I think this thread could turn into a witch hunt quite easily - with this comment & the one by Amymay earlier tbh 🤨
		
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All I said was that op is reading the thread.  No witch hunt from me. I think the poor kid was royally screwed over.


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## Tihamandturkey (28 June 2020)

Amymay said:



			All I said was that op is reading the thread.  No witch hunt from me. I think the poor kid was royally screwed over.
		
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Apologies if I got the wrong idea


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## Cortez (28 June 2020)

Amymay said:



			All I said was that op is reading the thread.  No witch hunt from me. I think the poor kid was royally screwed over.
		
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How so? She bought a horse that was disclosed as a rearer and napper. Would I have sold it to her? Absolutely not, but it was her decision to buy it.


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## SatansLittleHelper (28 June 2020)

Just to weigh in, as someone with no personal experience with rearers.....
Kid was bloody daft to buy and the seller was irresponsible to let her. Where are the parents in all of this????


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## Amymay (28 June 2020)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Just to weigh in, as someone with no personal experience with rearers.....
Kid was bloody daft to buy and the seller was irresponsible to let her. Where are the parents in all of this????
		
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That in a nutshell


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## ester (28 June 2020)

She's 18 why would the parents be involved?


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## Amymay (28 June 2020)

ester said:



			She's 18 why would the parents be involved?
		
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Possibly to try and stop their daughter from doing something stupid.


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## ester (28 June 2020)

Weird, I don't expect an adult to have their parents involved in stuff.


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## mini_b (28 June 2020)

ester said:



			Weird, I don't expect an adult to have their parents involved in stuff.
		
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I hate to say it but the vast majority of 18 year olds in 2020 are not “adults”. There are exceptions, but very few I have come across.


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## ester (28 June 2020)

Obv I am using the legal definition. . . . I really don't think we need to argue whether 18 year olds are adults or not for this thread.


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## MiniMilton (28 June 2020)

ester said:



			Weird, I don't expect an adult to have their parents involved in stuff.
		
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Agreed. Most people have a job of some sort from their mid teens. Saving up and buying a horse yourself at 18 really isn't that unusual. I'd like to think I had more sense at that age and wouldn't consider a rearer. I did buy an unbroken connemara at that age so I guess it could have turned out horribly wrong for me too.


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## Dwyran_gold (28 June 2020)

MiniMilton said:



			Agreed. Most people have a job of some sort from their mid teens. Saving up and buying a horse yourself at 18 really isn't that unusual. I'd like to think I had more sense at that age and wouldn't consider a rearer. I did buy an unbroken connemara at that age so I guess it could have turned out horribly wrong for me too.
		
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when I look back at what I used to do with horses at 18 it’s half way between admiration and dread lol x


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## Lois Lame (29 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			The rears the horse is doing now are not relevant to whatever rears it was doing at the time of purchase. A propensity to rear can be amplified by whoever is riding it, or indeed eliminated. Some riders are capable of getting rears out of completely saintly horses too.....

i don't feel particularly sorry for the OP. Silly girl, but I do feel deeply sorry for the horse.
		
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I feel sorry for the girl because I've done foolish things many a time, and I'm thankful that the internet didn't exist until I was rather long in the tooth.

Apart from that, I agree with your post.


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## SatansLittleHelper (29 June 2020)

Didn't mean to offend.....most of that age group I know are still living at home and are heavily financially reliant on their parents. The way OP has gone about conducting herself throughout this certainly didn't scream "adult" to me 🙄🙄🙄


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## Gingerwitch (29 June 2020)

But if your parents were not horsey and girl is saying it's nothing, look a 13 year old is riding it. How would they know better ?


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## Ownedby4horses (29 June 2020)

OP, I havent posted until now but this situation has got out of control. 

You need to look at the clear facts, you knew the horse's issues and it reared with you at the viewing, yet you still bought the horse.  You continue to have issues once the horse is with you and now are blaming the seller (yet the seller has been clear with you and you knew what you were buying).  

You are slating the seller and you need to stop.  YOU have made a mistake buying the horse, you werent forced to buy the horse.  YOU have put yourself into this situation and no one else.  YOU need to remove posts about the seller as this is extremely unfair.  YOU need to decide what you are going to do with the horse, as it is YOUR responsibility, you need to get a full vet check and stop riding the horse in the first instance. 

Absolutely everyone on here has made a mistake in their life but it is how you handle it, which shows your true character.  YOU have currently handled this poorly but you can turn it around and make yourself into a better person (by learning from your mistake and moving on), delete your posts slating the seller and ask for help!  

If you had come on here saying that you had bought this horse, despite it rearing at the viewing and youve now realised you are out of your depth and ask for advice on what you can try (vets!) to help the horse as it is clearly unhappy, then I guarantee you would have experienced such an outpouring of support and offers of help and advice and YOU would have come out of this as looking like such a genuine person. 

Many of us on here are mothers, who's children have made incredible mistakes whilst growing up and this support is here for you, please stop slating the seller, that is so incredibly unfair and unjust. 

I would personally love to see you come back to this thread and ask for help and not blame anyone else for what happened. 

The PRIORITY here is to keep you safe from being hurt and to help the horse.  

From mistakes comes great learning but only if you wish to grow as a person. 

If you do not feel strong enough to come back to the thread then PM me and I will offer support to you.


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## stormox (29 June 2020)

Most parents wouldnt have any influence over an 18yr old.  At 18  you are considered an adult and old enough to make your own decisuons. At 18 I wasnt even living at home, I had my own place, a job and made my own decisions.


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## RubyNoir (29 June 2020)

Hello everyone, 
I just wanted to put the truth out there as I know this horse & have ridden her myself (in an extremely stressful situation for the horse). I will elaborate on that later.

First & foremost the original owner has NOT refused to take the horse back, in fact freckles is currently on her way home!  The owner (M) & her daughter love the horse & only wanted to see her in a good home, as daughter is really too tall for her, hence the honest advert & full disclosure 

So the op (L) is a novice, (didn’t make that clear at the 2 viewings).  There was no pushing by M to sell the horse, she had plenty of other viewings lined up & was in no hurry.

This isn’t op’s first horse, she previously ‘rescued’ A 9 year old unbroken newforest gelding & ‘broke him in’ in 3 weeks.  The gelding was sold on as a dangerous bolter less then a year later.

freckles owner sold her with full disclosure, her 13 year old rider is an excellent & calm rider who has had no problems with the rearing, they were bunny hops with her & with me, generally resolved by going forward.

Freckles rears when she is stressed or out of her comfort zone, she lacks confidence & needs a calm rider she can trust.
The previous owner (M) told op (L) this, L was also told That freckles did not hack alone, yet the first hack L did was on her own!
L asked M for advice who suggested scaling it back, doing groundwork, bonding with the horse & hacking in company but not at the front, as freckles didn’t like being at the front.

L decided to get ‘a professional rider’ (we don’t know who this is) to hack the horse out the very next day! 
That is the video & screenshot you are seeing... the professional rider taking the horse in front, and pushing her well past her comfort zone less then a week after op’s purchase.

M is devastated to see Freckles in such a state & to be libled all over the internet (fb, here, Instagram, who knows where else).  M is taking freckles back but I’m not sure she should refund the money (she was sold in good faith, thoughts on that please?).

m is also concerned about the possibility of selling freckles on, which she would like to do to enable her daughter to get a horse more suited in height.  She’s worried about similar happening again or people just thinking this is a dangerous horse!

There’s always 2 sides to every story!

as for when I ride freckles, it was after an incident when my horse dumped  me & ran off, freckles was clearly stressed but did not dump her rider! When my horse had vanished into the distance I borrowed freckles to catch her up.  I rode her on her own away from her friend & her owner to find my horse, she reared (bunny hopped) only Once, I pushed her on & had no further issues.  We rode for 3 miles on our own till I found my horse! That was my first ride on freckles in a stressful situation yet she behaved extremely well, even going alone!!


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## RubyNoir (29 June 2020)

Dwyran_gold said:



			I thought the same thing. I think they must have wanted rid of the horse themselves. I know I’d take my horse straight back and refund even with full disclosure in the first place if I thought they’d be sold on again and it wasn’t the right home.. but then I love my horses! X
		
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Horse has been taken back, was never refused! Freckles is well loved & has never reared like in that video with owner!


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## scats (29 June 2020)

Glad to hear horse is going back to the owner. 

I hope the young lady learns from this and buys a horse more suitable for her abilities.


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## MiniMilton (29 June 2020)

Thank you for the details RubyNoir. The poor owners have been really messed around by this girl. 

I had a similar situation a number of years ago (thankfully minus the Facebook slating) 
I sold a tricky horse to a competent 18year old. All quirks fully disclosed, with clear instructions of what they shouldn't ask of the horse especially in the early days of partnership. Within a week the horse was returned for doing exactly what I said would happen if they did what they did. I stupidly gave full refund. Horse was never really the same. The amount of psychological damage they caused the horse she never trusted me again and she was eventually practically given away as a broodmare (excellent confirmation and bloodlines, just very quirky).


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## Wishfilly (29 June 2020)

RubyNoir said:



			Hello everyone,
I just wanted to put the truth out there as I know this horse & have ridden her myself (in an extremely stressful situation for the horse). I will elaborate on that later.

First & foremost the original owner has NOT refused to take the horse back, in fact freckles is currently on her way home!  The owner (M) & her daughter love the horse & only wanted to see her in a good home, as daughter is really too tall for her, hence the honest advert & full disclosure

So the op (L) is a novice, (didn’t make that clear at the 2 viewings).  There was no pushing by M to sell the horse, she had plenty of other viewings lined up & was in no hurry.

This isn’t op’s first horse, she previously ‘rescued’ A 9 year old unbroken newforest gelding & ‘broke him in’ in 3 weeks.  The gelding was sold on as a dangerous bolter less then a year later.

freckles owner sold her with full disclosure, her 13 year old rider is an excellent & calm rider who has had no problems with the rearing, they were bunny hops with her & with me, generally resolved by going forward.

Freckles rears when she is stressed or out of her comfort zone, she lacks confidence & needs a calm rider she can trust.
The previous owner (M) told op (L) this, L was also told That freckles did not hack alone, yet the first hack L did was on her own!
L asked M for advice who suggested scaling it back, doing groundwork, bonding with the horse & hacking in company but not at the front, as freckles didn’t like being at the front.

L decided to get ‘a professional rider’ (we don’t know who this is) to hack the horse out the very next day!
That is the video & screenshot you are seeing... the professional rider taking the horse in front, and pushing her well past her comfort zone less then a week after op’s purchase.

M is devastated to see Freckles in such a state & to be libled all over the internet (fb, here, Instagram, who knows where else).  M is taking freckles back but I’m not sure she should refund the money (she was sold in good faith, thoughts on that please?).

m is also concerned about the possibility of selling freckles on, which she would like to do to enable her daughter to get a horse more suited in height.  She’s worried about similar happening again or people just thinking this is a dangerous horse!

There’s always 2 sides to every story!

as for when I ride freckles, it was after an incident when my horse dumped  me & ran off, freckles was clearly stressed but did not dump her rider! When my horse had vanished into the distance I borrowed freckles to catch her up.  I rode her on her own away from her friend & her owner to find my horse, she reared (bunny hopped) only Once, I pushed her on & had no further issues.  We rode for 3 miles on our own till I found my horse! That was my first ride on freckles in a stressful situation yet she behaved extremely well, even going alone!!
		
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This sounds like the best outcome for the horse. 

Legally, if they are taking the horse back, the money does need to be refunded- unless you can come to an agreement with the OP, which doesn't sound likely. It does sound like the current owners have been messed around a bit but they can't take the horse back and keep the money!

I do think that unfortunately it's unlikely your friend will be able to sell Freckles on again quickly, and this is unlikely to be the best thing for the horse. Is there any option to maybe loan something for her daughter in the meantime?


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## RubyNoir (29 June 2020)

laura_nash said:



			TBF having seen that screenshot its possible she can't respond as she's now in hospital.
		
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it wasn’t op riding in that video, she’s not in hospital she’s busy libelling the owner all over the internet.  She won’t come back & post here because she got too much truth.  On Instagram all she is getting is oh you poor darling so I assume she’s sticking with that!


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## RubyNoir (29 June 2020)

MiniMilton said:



			Thank you for the details RubyNoir. The poor owners have been really messed around by this girl.

I had a similar situation a number of years ago (thankfully minus the Facebook slating)
I sold a tricky horse to a competent 18year old. All quirks fully disclosed, with clear instructions of what they shouldn't ask of the horse especially in the early days of partnership. Within a week the horse was returned for doing exactly what I said would happen if they did what they did. I stupidly gave full refund. Horse was never really the same. The amount of psychological damage they caused the horse she never trusted me again and she was eventually practically given away as a broodmare (excellent confirmation and bloodlines, just very quirky).
		
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it’s so so sad I hope freckles hasn’t sustained any permanent damage.  Bet will be out to assess any physical issues initially & then a behaviourist if required


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## ihatework (29 June 2020)

RubyNoir said:



			Hello everyone,
I just wanted to put the truth out there as I know this horse & have ridden her myself (in an extremely stressful situation for the horse). I will elaborate on that later.

First & foremost the original owner has NOT refused to take the horse back, in fact freckles is currently on her way home!  The owner (M) & her daughter love the horse & only wanted to see her in a good home, as daughter is really too tall for her, hence the honest advert & full disclosure

So the op (L) is a novice, (didn’t make that clear at the 2 viewings).  There was no pushing by M to sell the horse, she had plenty of other viewings lined up & was in no hurry.

This isn’t op’s first horse, she previously ‘rescued’ A 9 year old unbroken newforest gelding & ‘broke him in’ in 3 weeks.  The gelding was sold on as a dangerous bolter less then a year later.

freckles owner sold her with full disclosure, her 13 year old rider is an excellent & calm rider who has had no problems with the rearing, they were bunny hops with her & with me, generally resolved by going forward.

Freckles rears when she is stressed or out of her comfort zone, she lacks confidence & needs a calm rider she can trust.
The previous owner (M) told op (L) this, L was also told That freckles did not hack alone, yet the first hack L did was on her own!
L asked M for advice who suggested scaling it back, doing groundwork, bonding with the horse & hacking in company but not at the front, as freckles didn’t like being at the front.

L decided to get ‘a professional rider’ (we don’t know who this is) to hack the horse out the very next day!
That is the video & screenshot you are seeing... the professional rider taking the horse in front, and pushing her well past her comfort zone less then a week after op’s purchase.

M is devastated to see Freckles in such a state & to be libled all over the internet (fb, here, Instagram, who knows where else).  M is taking freckles back but I’m not sure she should refund the money (she was sold in good faith, thoughts on that please?).

m is also concerned about the possibility of selling freckles on, which she would like to do to enable her daughter to get a horse more suited in height.  She’s worried about similar happening again or people just thinking this is a dangerous horse!

There’s always 2 sides to every story!

as for when I ride freckles, it was after an incident when my horse dumped  me & ran off, freckles was clearly stressed but did not dump her rider! When my horse had vanished into the distance I borrowed freckles to catch her up.  I rode her on her own away from her friend & her owner to find my horse, she reared (bunny hopped) only Once, I pushed her on & had no further issues.  We rode for 3 miles on our own till I found my horse! That was my first ride on freckles in a stressful situation yet she behaved extremely well, even going alone!!
		
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I think this is every sellers nightmare. You do your best to give an honest representation of the horse and still find yourself with a numpty buyer.

I’m glad they are taking the horse back, it’s best for the horse. In their shoes I wouldn’t refund the money immediately I’d assess the horse, see how much damage was done and advise the buyer that they will get a partial refund after expenses once the horse has been sold. Then take extra care to place the horse in right environment. I expect the warning signs on this buyer were there if they had looked closely


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## RubyNoir (29 June 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			This sounds like the best outcome for the horse.

Legally, if they are taking the horse back, the money does need to be refunded- unless you can come to an agreement with the OP, which doesn't sound likely. It does sound like the current owners have been messed around a bit but they can't take the horse back and keep the money!

I do think that unfortunately it's unlikely your friend will be able to sell Freckles on again quickly, and this is unlikely to be the best thing for the horse. Is there any option to maybe loan something for her daughter in the meantime?
		
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that’s fine at the end of the day it’s about the horse not the money, the daughter will just ride mums horse for now & work gently with freckles to help her get over this trauma


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## RubyNoir (29 June 2020)

ihatework said:



			I think this is every sellers nightmare. You do your best to give an honest representation of the horse and still find yourself with a numpty buyer.

I’m glad they are taking the horse back, it’s best for the horse. In their shoes I wouldn’t refund the money immediately I’d assess the horse, see how much damage was done and advise the buyer that they will get a partial refund after expenses once the horse has been sold. Then take extra care to place the horse in right environment. I expect the warning signs on this buyer were there if they had looked closely
		
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thank you fir your help


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## Cortez (29 June 2020)

I am so pleased that the horse has been removed from the situation. If it was mine I would be disinclined to refund the purchase price - the horse now belongs to the buyer (18 year old), but perhaps they might consider selling the horse on for the new owner (the 18 year old), minus any livery, vet, etc. costs.


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## doodle (29 June 2020)

I am glad the seller is taking the horse back. NOT because I think they are at fault but for the sake of the horse. I hope mentally horse is ok and a way forward can be found for her.


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## Amymay (29 June 2020)

Thanks for the update Ruby


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## stormox (29 June 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			This sounds like the best outcome for the horse.

Legally, if they are taking the horse back, the money does need to be refunded- unless you can come to an agreement with the OP, which doesn't sound likely. It does sound like the current owners have been messed around a bit but they can't take the horse back and keep the money!
I do think that unfortunately it's unlikely your friend will be able to sell Freckles on again quickly, and this is unlikely to be the best thing for the horse. Is there any option to maybe loan something for her daughter in the meantime?
		
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I dont think  she should have  to give the full amout back. The horse now has a bad reputation and the seller has been slagged on FB. She is entitled to keep 'reasonable deductions' as has often happened in court cases.


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## emilylou (29 June 2020)

I'd be inclined to refund 50%, the horse has been returned as 'damaged goods' and the buyer is at fault, as seller fully disclosed horses quirks. Then you can move forward without her pestering/involvement


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## Ownedby4horses (29 June 2020)

Thank you for coming on and posting and letting us know the horse is away from the new owner.  I cannot imagine the stress it has caused the owner and her daughter. I have had a similar case a few years back and the girl was a complete nightmare and thankfully the horse was moved to a far more suitable, capable and sympathetic rider. 

OP- I hope you have learnt a lesson from this, this is the reason you need to be HONEST about your abilities to yourself and anyone selling a horse, I’ve seen good dealers get slated for someone’s fluffing up their own ability.

OP, you have had one hell of a lesson and it could have easily ended up with a very serious outcome for you. You should thank your lucky stars that you have dealt with a decent owner who clearly wants what is best for their horse.  I would seriously advise you review your abilities and be honest for any future purchase. 

I feel outraged for the owner and the owner’s daughter and thank goodness the horse is no longer in that new home.


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## eggs (29 June 2020)

I am very pleased to hear that Freckles is being removed from the OP but am also dismayed on behalf of the original owners that they have been slated by the OP all over the internet.

I don't know the legal situation but maybe they could have her back to sell on behalf of the OP - commission and livery fee to be deducted from the sale price or buy her back at market value (£500 ?) as this has been seriously reduced due to the internet shenanigans of the OP.


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## Wishfilly (29 June 2020)

If the current owner (OP) is willing to accept selling the horse back to the previous owner for a lower price, that is obviously fine but given how she has behaved so far, I would get the new price clearly agreed in writing. 

Yes, technically it is a new sale, but given the OP legally owns the horse (and can presumably prove this via text messages etc) I doubt she is just going to give it back for free! If another arrangement is agreed, I would be concerned that the OP would turn around at the last minute and say she has changed her mind.

For me, the priority would be getting the horse back and not getting involved in any kind of ownership dispute- hence saying a full refund is probably the easiest option.

I do accept the horse has gone down in value, and the sellers have been put in a rubbish position, though!


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## hellfire (29 June 2020)

I’m so glad to hear Freckles is back in capable hands again. I feel for that seller and how she has been made out to be the bad guy. The horse is always in my opinion the main concern and I hope they come to some agreement. I personally would not be giving a full refund due to the mental stress that poor horse has suffered and the slander from op. My newest horse was sold to me quirks on the table and the seller had turned away a few people. She’s kept in contact and still does to see his progress. He had turned out to be a amazing little horse. She’d of taken him back in a moment if she thought he was not ok here and I was not capable. This seller clearly cares about her horse and I can only imagine how they must feel. Your invincible and cocky at 18 and feel you can ride anything. I hope op has learnt from this not to over horse yourself and take on something beyond your capabilities. For the horses sake and safety sake.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (29 June 2020)

Glad to hear another side of the story, I did wonder if she was rearing despite being "in company" in the screenshot due to the fact she was in front

I have no legal knowledge nor have I sold a horse so please dont quite me on this but I wouldn't be inclined to refund anywhere near the full purchase price for the following reasons:

- Seller was honest in advert yet OP still purchased horse

-OP had more than one trial with the horse, during one of which the horse reared yet OP still buys horse- have you any texts you could screenshot to support any potential dispute?

-M and her daughter are now inconvenienced as they need to share a horse 

-resale could now be compromised by OP slating owner on the internet 

-Horse may now be injured from rearing after putting it in a situation M said not to which will cost her money to fix

I'd possibly only refund once horse has been sold, less any livery/ vet costs incurred in the mean time 

MAKE SURE YOU KEEP SCREENSHOTS OF EVERYTHING EG THE AD/ OP LYING ON FB/ ANY TEXTS BETWEEN YOU AND HER

Like I say I'm no expert on the legal information I know people have said about ringing the BHS legal line on previous threads so may be worthwhile for some advice. But definitely keep screenshots of every piece of communication/ M trying to advise OP/ the original ad etc


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## Meowy Catkin (29 June 2020)

Thank you for explaining things RubyNoir, everything you say makes perfect sense and I really hope that things are OK with Freckles and that it works out so that people can move on from this awful situation.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (29 June 2020)

OP is keeping up to date with this thread, last seen 11.30 today on here......


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 June 2020)

Poor horse, that’s who I feel sorry for in all of this. The sellers have been well and truly messed around too.

I hope they get to the bottom of the behaviour. As for you OP, let this be a lesson learnt. Buy something that’s suitable to your skill level, or loan until you are experienced enough.


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## Nari (29 June 2020)

Thank you so much for the update RubyNoir, I'm relieved it's turned out so well for Freckles but I have a lot of sympathy for the owners. Can they get some legal advice - CAB? BHS? - about whether they have to refund the full amount when the horse has been returned to them worth less due to her bad experiences and also given that the OP has bad mouthed them on social media? It doesn't seem right she should walk away from this at no cost and still carry on libelling people who have done nothing wrong.


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## Nari (29 June 2020)

Loan PictusSweetDreams? Based on her behaviour over this I wouldn't loan her a rocking horse!


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## Nicnac (29 June 2020)

So pleased horse is back with sensible people.  Owner could buy the horse off the OP for £1 so she has legal ownership again and then speak to a solicitor about libellious social media postings.


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## mini_b (29 June 2020)

Thank you for updating @RubyNoir


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 June 2020)

Nari said:



			Loan PictusSweetDreams? Based on her behaviour over this I wouldn't loan her a rocking horse!
		
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very true! 🤣


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## Roasted Chestnuts (29 June 2020)

Was this posted??


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## Amymay (29 June 2020)

Was there any need to post that CC, as the situation is now resolved?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (29 June 2020)

Amymay said:



			Was there any need to post that CC, as the situation is now resolved?
		
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felt it was relevant to the thread. It was posted by the owner now taking the horse back. Also folk were discussing a full refund and whether or not it would be warranted. If she was willing to pay to have the horse put down then why should she have a full refund.


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## Amymay (29 June 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			felt it was relevant to the thread. It was posted by the owner now taking the horse back. Also folk were discussing a full refund and whether or not it would be warranted. If she was will to pay to have the horse put down then why should she have a full refund.
		
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I think that this thread has run its course, and your post has done nothing to add to it.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (29 June 2020)

Amymay said:



			I think that this thread has run its course, and your post has done nothing to add to it.
		
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i disagree so we shall just have to agree to disagree on this.


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 June 2020)

CC your screenshot is interesting when they mentioned horse being drugged. I know when OP viewed the horse it was very sluggish and lethargic, perhaps there is more to this story than meets the eye. At least everyone, including horse is safe.


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## MiniMilton (29 June 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			felt it was relevant to the thread. It was posted by the owner now taking the horse back. Also folk were discussing a full refund and whether or not it would be warranted. If she was will to pay to have the horse put down then why should she have a full refund.
		
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Yes. So the buyer was going to get the horse PTS at a cost of a couple of hundred quid, the original owner steps in to save the horse so why should they pay 2500 to do that


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## Roasted Chestnuts (29 June 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			CC your screenshot is interesting when they mentioned horse being drugged. I know when OP viewed the horse it was very sluggish and lethargic, perhaps there is more to this story than meets the eye. At least everyone, including horse is safe.
		
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i found it interesting for a number of reasons but given the possible temperature when the horse was tried I wouldn’t really think anything of a horse bring lethargic in the heat we have been having. Many other things can make a horse tired feeling otherwise than drugs. Also it still reared so if that drugged wouldn’t have so I’ll take that with a pinch of salt. Our boys have been wanting in for a sleep more with the heat.

Mind you this current weather is a million miles away from summer


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## Nari (29 June 2020)

So she'd have spent money having her PTS, but wants a full refund from the person she bought from if they take her back. Shame on her. And the drama queen language of that screen shot annoys me too. No the horse was not trying to kill you, chances are that if that was it's intention you'd be dead. And in my opinion it's not the horse putting the public in danger it's the idiot taking it on the road when it's behaving like this. Yet again the OP is taking no responsibility for her actions and instead is blaming everyone else.


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## Chinchilla (29 June 2020)

OP isn't showing teenaged horse owners in a good light .....


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## Meowy Catkin (29 June 2020)

I didn't like the way that having her PTS was used as a threat.


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## SatansLittleHelper (29 June 2020)

RubyNoir thanks for the update. I hope it can all be resolved but I still feel the original owners have to take a little responsibility for the current situation. OP didn't tell them she was a novice but it doesn't take a genius when you see someone's riding, or listen to things they say. However, I do feel bad for them that being completely blamed for the situation


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## Scotsbadboy (29 June 2020)

Thanks for the update. I felt a bit sorry but hopeful for OP having been in a similar situation with a new project horse recently, and although sold as a project with no fault to the seller, i felt over horsed and out of my depth with this mares ridden behaviour as she was so sharp and nappy, so i advised the OP to surround herself with a really good team and take her time getting the foundations right. I'm glad the horse is now back with the correct owners and i hope the OP seriously grows up! 
As much as i felt like sending my horse back at 8 days .... 16 days .... and every day in-between, lol, I'm glad i surrounded myself with professionals immediately and took my time getting to know this new horse because 8 weeks in she is pretty damn special but will always be a sensitive soul and im totally in love with her and we are having so much fun together


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 June 2020)

Scotsbadboy said:



			Thanks for the update. I felt a bit sorry but hopeful for OP having been in a similar situation with a new project horse recently, and although sold as a project with no fault to the seller, i felt over horsed and out of my depth with this mares ridden behaviour as she was so sharp and nappy, so i advised the OP to surround herself with a really good team and take her time getting the foundations right. I'm glad the horse is now back with the correct owners and i hope the OP seriously grows up!
As much as i felt like sending my horse back at 8 days .... 16 days .... and every day in-between, lol, I'm glad i surrounded myself with professionals immediately and took my time getting to know this new horse because 8 weeks in she is pretty damn special but will always be a sensitive soul and im totally in love with her and we are having so much fun together 

Click to expand...

I’m glad you stuck by your horse! That’s what has annoyed me with this thread. OP bought a known rearer, had the horse what, a week? And already given up. If that was me (and yes, I know it everyone is the same) I would have investigated further and hopefully rectified the issue, especially since the horse was purchased with a known issue.


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## Amymay (29 June 2020)

Hopefully you wouldn’t have bought it all PSD..


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 June 2020)

Amymay said:



			Hopefully you wouldn’t have bought it all PSD..
		
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no, I wouldn’t! Rearing is on my absolute no list.


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## mini_b (29 June 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			I’m glad you stuck by your horse! That’s what has annoyed me with this thread. OP bought a known rearer, had the horse what, a week? And already given up. If that was me (and yes, I know it everyone is the same) I would have investigated further and hopefully rectified the issue, especially since the horse was purchased with a known issue.
		
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it had only been a week. 
yes it rears - she knew it rears however she didn’t give it much of a chance to settle to all the change.
New home, new owner. 
she might have had more of a chance had she let it chill out a bit and start doing the basics with a trainer; 
rather than doing all the stuff she knew triggered it ie hacking alone or in front or whatever it was now.

I think some people forget horses are sentient and expect it to be 100% foot perfect from day one.

We truly do not deserve horses (Or dogs!)
They give so much to us yet people continue to expect too much and wonder why they break. Very sad.


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 June 2020)

mini barnes said:



			it had only been a week.
yes it rears - she knew it rears however she didn’t give it much of a chance to settle to all the change.
New home, new owner.
she might have had more of a chance had she let it chill out a bit and start doing the basics with a trainer;
rather than doing all the stuff she knew triggered it ie hacking alone or in front or whatever it was now.

I think some people forget horses are sentient and expect it to be 100% foot perfect from day one.

We truly do not deserve horses (Or dogs!)
They give so much to us yet people continue to expect too much and wonder why they break. Very sad.
		
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100% agree with you there.


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## Tiddlypom (29 June 2020)

Well, the OP did get help, she got a pro out who sussed the mare out so well that she ended up standing up right up near parked cars .

Probably the sort of pro who likes to sort out a horse and show it who’s boss .


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## FestiveFuzz (29 June 2020)

PictusSweetDreams said:



			I’m glad you stuck by your horse! That’s what has annoyed me with this thread. OP bought a known rearer, had the horse what, a week? And already given up. If that was me (and yes, I know it everyone is the same) I would have investigated further and hopefully rectified the issue, especially since the horse was purchased with a known issue.
		
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Potentially an unpopular opinion, but whilst the OP has definitely gone about it the wrong way, I really don't think there's any shame in the OP knowing they are way out of their depth and calling it quits early doors. I'd far rather someone acknowledge they've overhorsed themselves than see them or the horse get seriously hurt through stubbornness or misguided loyalty. 

I wouldn't have bought a rearer in the first place, but had I found myself in OP's shoes, and having seen the sort of shapes the horse could pull when ridden by a pro I would be more inclined to retire it to pasture or PTS, than go searching for answers and risk throwing good money after bad.


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## Dwyran_gold (29 June 2020)

FestiveFuzz said:



			Potentially an unpopular opinion, but whilst the OP has definitely gone about it the wrong way, I really don't think there's any shame in the OP knowing they are way out of their depth and calling it quits early doors. I'd far rather someone acknowledge they've overhorsed themselves than see them or the horse get seriously hurt through stubbornness or misguided loyalty.

I wouldn't have bought a rearer in the first place, but had I found myself in OP's shoes, and having seen the sort of shapes the horse could pull when ridden by a pro I would be more inclined to retire it to pasture or PTS, than go searching for answers and risk throwing good money after bad.
		
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very true, I think they’ll struggle to sell the horse now after all the attention and rightly so seeing what it’s capable of x


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## MiniMilton (29 June 2020)

FestiveFuzz said:



			I'd far rather someone acknowledge they've overhorsed themselves
		
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She didn't do this though. She launched into accusing the seller of being in the wrong.
If the OP had gone back to the seller and said I've realised I'm way out of my depth here and can I give her back and get a partial refund then this thread and all the Facebook threads would never have existed.

Any sympathy I had vanished when I saw the rather spiteful threat to have the horse PTS if she didn't get a refund.


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## FestiveFuzz (29 June 2020)

MiniMilton said:



			She didn't do this though. She launched into accusing the seller of being in the wrong.
If the OP had gone back to the seller and said I've realised I'm way out of my depth here and can I give her back and get a partial refund then this thread and all the Facebook threads would never have existed.

Any sympathy I had vanished when I saw the rather spiteful threat to have the horse PTS if she didn't get a refund.
		
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I like how you selectively chose one part of my post to quote and ignored the part where I stated the OP has definitely gone about it the wrong way. Also, my comment was in reference to a PP who had criticised the OP for giving up on the horse after one week. I have not for one moment suggested the OP has conducted themselves in a positive manner, but I think it's worth remembering that there's an 18yo sat somewhere behind this thread. Yes, they're technically an adult, but honestly I'm pretty sure most of us have done things we regret at that age. 

I've only seen what's been posted on here so won't comment on Facebook threads or anything else that they may or may not have said elsewhere, but I wouldn't automatically assume the suggestion of PTS was spiteful given there were many posters suggesting the OP did just that at the start of this thread as the fact of the matter is horse's that rear vertically with no thought to themselves or the rider are incredibly dangerous. 

Of course I feel sorry for the original owners, but equally I don't think they are completely blameless in all of this. It's usually fairly obvious when you're faced with a novice claiming to be more experienced than they are so I'm not totally convinced it wasn't a case of turning a blind eye and hoping for the best where OP was concerned. Ultimately, at the end of the day the horse is back in safe hands now and hopefully the owners will be a bit more diligent if they choose to sell the mare on again.


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## Gingerwitch (29 June 2020)

Glad horse is safe.there are always 3sides to a story. Yours theirs and some where in between will lie the truth


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## MiniMilton (29 June 2020)

FestiveFuzz said:



			I like how you selectively chose one part of my post to quote and ignored the part where I stated the OP has definitely gone about it the wrong way. Also, my comment was in reference to a PP who had criticised the OP for giving up on the horse after one week. I have not for one moment suggested the OP has conducted themselves in a positive manner, but I think it's worth remembering that there's an 18yo sat somewhere behind this thread. Yes, they're technically an adult, but honestly I'm pretty sure most of us have done things we regret at that age.

I've only seen what's been posted on here so won't comment on Facebook threads or anything else that they may or may not have said elsewhere, but I wouldn't automatically assume the suggestion of PTS was spiteful given there were many posters suggesting the OP did just that at the start of this thread as the fact of the matter is horse's that rear vertically with no thought to themselves or the rider are incredibly dangerous.

Of course I feel sorry for the original owners, but equally I don't think they are completely blameless in all of this. It's usually fairly obvious when you're faced with a novice claiming to be more experienced than they are so I'm not totally convinced it wasn't a case of turning a blind eye and hoping for the best where OP was concerned. Ultimately, at the end of the day the horse is back in safe hands now and hopefully the owners will be a bit more diligent if they choose to sell the mare on again.
		
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I wasn't intentionally having a go at you and apologies if it appears that way.  I simply shortened the quote for tidiness sake without realising how it would come across.

The Facebook threads really did show the OP to be telling two very different stories so that would flesh out my opinion that it was said spitefully.


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## PictusSweetDreams (29 June 2020)

FestiveFuzz said:



			Potentially an unpopular opinion, but whilst the OP has definitely gone about it the wrong way, I really don't think there's any shame in the OP knowing they are way out of their depth and calling it quits early doors. I'd far rather someone acknowledge they've overhorsed themselves than see them or the horse get seriously hurt through stubbornness or misguided loyalty.

I wouldn't have bought a rearer in the first place, but had I found myself in OP's shoes, and having seen the sort of shapes the horse could pull when ridden by a pro I would be more inclined to retire it to pasture or PTS, than go searching for answers and risk throwing good money after bad.
		
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also agree with this side too!


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## DrSeuss (29 June 2020)

I came across as a much better rider than I really was when I was a novice. If you're riding a horse in a setting in which it feels at home and comfortable, it will usually behave well enough for you to cope, which can lull you into a false sense of security and give you (and perhaps others) the idea that you're more capable than you actually are. So I can easily believe that neither the OP nor the horse's owner realised that this was a bad move.

As a child I was often allowed to ride a pony that had the apt name Forward. I was very proud of myself as only good riders got put on Forward. But I was never allowed to take him out on hacks. The RI explained that Forward out hacking was a very different pony from Forward in the school, which wasn't what I wanted to hear. Teenage me felt patronized and like the RI didn't see my mad amazing riding skillz. Now I know that if I'd tried to ride Forward outside his (and my!) comfort zone, those skills would have vanished very quickly. When I started to think about getting my own horse my RI advised me to go looking with my weaknesses in mind as well as my strengths. It's so easy to think only about what you're good at and look for a horse to match, without considering areas where you struggle and might find yourself overhorsed.


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## Tihamandturkey (29 June 2020)

This thread has confirmed what I already knew about my own mare - I could never ever sell her as a riding horse.

She is very sensitive & lacks confidence when on her own in unfamiliar surroundings.

Unfortunately her default is to go up - only a bunny hop at first but if pushed she will go right up - found this out during a lesson with someone who didn't know her very well and pushed us too hard.

There is no badness in her she is just a total stress head - I manage her because I know her trigger points so well - you need the patience of a saint tbh. As long as she is given time to work things out in her head she is fine.

I would never ask her to go out of her comfort zone and definitely wouldn't hack out on my own and sadly shows are a no go area.

I sincerely hope I never have to part with her because I know the decision I would have to make.


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## honetpot (29 June 2020)

I hate selling, even when you think someone is knowledgable, you have seen them ride, even seen their set up, you can get caught out. I have one in my paddock that I sold as a three year old, the person buying had been placed at top shows, and yet the pony is not the pony I sold for what ever reason. I sold a calm easy going pony that has come back a stress head, it taken nearly two years for him to be anything like he was.


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## Gingerwitch (29 June 2020)

I remember a stunning young mare arrive at the yard i was at, she was perfect.  Owner took her to a fun ride day after she arrived and blasted horse round, according to others she went round twice as in the long ride then round the short ride at rather a fast pace and jumped everything.  Horse was screwed. Previous owner came and took screwed horse back she never recovered and became a brood mare.  New owner just went out and got another, which lasted a few months before being nailed.  She was asked to leave yard by yard owners father as he had watched her jump the next new horse on rock hard ground the same day it had arrived.


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## Mgoddard (30 June 2020)

Freck.19 said:



			I’ve had my new mare less than a week, I went to try her out and she was perfect, the owners were very nice and also told me all her good and bad points - including her napping, rearing! On my second viewing for her she did actually rear with me, 3 in a row, but I sat them all and they weren’t that big. They have assured me that the horse has been turned inside out and there are no health issues, It’s just a learned bad habit. She’s 14 and has got away with it for many years.
So she’s been home and settled, and today I took her out her first hack! She was an angel, but she ended up dragging me into a massive field wanting to take off! She didn’t, but every time I tried to turn her back she rested, and the rears got bigger and bigger, she done about 5. I was really scared, she’s the first horse I’ve ever dealt with that rears. Luckily my boyfriend was on hand to clip a lead rope to her and then she was fine.

what should I do? It’s made me lose my confidence a little bit. ☹️
		
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Well this has all made for very interesting reading. I am the owner of the horse in question and unfortunately sold her to this individual. Thankfully I have taken this horse back, I was threatened by this person saying if I did not take her back she was being PTS, I know there is no legal obligation and no ethical vet would put a healthy animal to sleep however I am a good and understanding person so for my horses sake I have taken her back. Now that she is safe I can respond to this and also disclose the dreadful behaviour that has been seen (yes I know how does it get worse than threatening to have an animal put to sleep cause it’s not working out). Ok so back to the beginning, Freckles (ridden by my 14 year old daughter) has a nap, this is rearing. More like bunny hops, they are a strop and she works brilliantly once she knows you won’t stand for it, simple. Or this is her reaction to fear, some horses bolt some buck and some rear, all horses have a reaction when stressed or frightened. Another key fact here is this horse was sold (described in the advert, told in person and physically hacked out on 2nd viewing with company) as a horse that DOESN’T hack alone. The new owner decided that on day 5 of ownership she would hack this poor mare out alone. Causing her to of course rear and not the napping previously mentioned, she reared, big and dangerous (I was send videos) She reacted to the fear of being out alone, no time to settle in her new surroundings, quite frankly a monument lack of judgment, compassion and understanding for this poor animal. She contacted me and I calmly explained she doesn’t hack alone and to give her time. Other messages were exchanged (none were heated) and more advice given from myself regarding allowing the horse to settle, bond with her work with her slowly. Did she take this advice? No. Instead she decided to get a “professional rider” to take her out on another hack (with company at least) on a busy road, in what world would this ever help? My 11 year old would know better. I would very much like to know who this rider was because unless she was lied to there is no way any professional would do this if they were aware of the history, length of time she has had the horse etc. I then enquired that evening as to how the day had gone (not knowing any of this) to which I got a horrifying video of my poor horse stressed and rearing in a main road almost coming down on cars, the so called professional rider obviously has not had experience sitting rears as she simply yanked on poor Freckles mouth and I am shocked she didn’t tip right over. I received this plus the threats to have her PTS if I don’t take her back. This girl had shown her true colours and for Freckles safety I took her back. Unfortunately the individual then proceeded to post this dreadful video onto Instagram and try to discredit me on a horse dealer page on Facebook. She claimed she is a novice rider, she didn’t know what she was buying and this was her first horse, all of which are untrue. I have since sort legal advice and have asked for a Public apology which I think is the very least that should be done, as this reckless, cruel individual pushed a frightened, stressed animal and endangered both her and the public in doing so. Instead of an apology I have also received threatening texts (these have been reported to the police) saying if they do not have a full refund by 8am this morning they will “take things to a whole new level” and will come to my home. I have never said I will not refund but due to this horrific actions I think an apology and the truth to the 6000+ followers this person  has on Instagram is the very least that should be done.


Freck.19 said:



			I’ve had my new mare less than a week, I went to try her out and she was perfect, the owners were very nice and also told me all her good and bad points - including her napping, rearing! On my second viewing for her she did actually rear with me, 3 in a row, but I sat them all and they weren’t that big. They have assured me that the horse has been turned inside out and there are no health issues, It’s just a learned bad habit. She’s 14 and has got away with it for many years.
So she’s been home and settled, and today I took her out her first hack! She was an angel, but she ended up dragging me into a massive field wanting to take off! She didn’t, but every time I tried to turn her back she rested, and the rears got bigger and bigger, she done about 5. I was really scared, she’s the first horse I’ve ever dealt with that rears. Luckily my boyfriend was on hand to clip a lead rope to her and then she was fine.

what should I do? It’s made me lose my confidence a little bit. ☹️[/

This all makes very interesting reading I am the owner of the horse in question and now she is safely back in my possession I will tell you all the sad truth. So Freckles is known to nap by way or rearing, this is when she gets a bit frustrated or agitated and they are like little bunny hops, she works brilliantly when she knows she won’t get away with it. Simple. This is also her reaction to fear/stress, all horses have a reaction to these situations, some bolt some rear etc it’s about managing the stress and fear. This was all fully disclosed to this person before sale. It was also clear from the advert, verbally and hacking out on the 2nd viewing that this horse DOES NOT HACK ALONE. 
Ok so back to the beginning this individual purchased Freckles from me with wide open eyes, as stated in the article above, all was going well until she decided to hack her alone on day 5 of ownership. Yes that’s right a horse that you have been told doesn’t hack alone is taken out on her own on day 5. A monumental lack of judgement and compassion for the animal, of course she reacted with rearing, big ones not the napping mentioned but dangerous big rears. She sent me videos and I explained (again) about hacking her alone, I said take it back to basics bond with her, let her settle in do ground work etc to establish your relationship. Some more messages were exchanged in the next couple of days (nothing heated) and I tried again to say let the horse settle and recover from the change. Instead she decided to get a “professional rider” to take her out on another hack (thankfully with company this time) but onto a busy main road, in what world would this help? Pushing a clearly stressed horse into an environment that not only put herself in danger but also the public. I would very much like to know who this rider was, they have obviously been lied to or most certainly are not a professional rider otherwise you would never put yourself, the public or a horse in that kind of danger. That evening I was unaware of this until I messaged her enquiring how the day had gone. I got a truly horrifying video of my poor horse rearing (it’s awful to watch) so clearly stressed and frightened and the so called professional rider obviously has no experience sitting rears as she yanked on the poor horses mouth to such an extent I don’t know how she didn’t tip backward. I was threatened by this girl that she was having Freckles PTS if I didn’t take her back, she had shown her true colours and on the basis of Freckles safety I agreed to take her back. The situation if not already bad enough then escalates as this girl decides to post this horrifying video onto Instagram for sympathy. I was watching the post closely and every comment saying that poor horse was deleted immediately, the “poor you” ones remained. She also posted lies on a dodgy horse dealer site claiming to be a novice rider and was mis sold this horse and it was her first purchase, all of which are untrue. I have waited until I had my poor horse back before saying anything as her safety is paramount to me. This is why I took her back. I am fully aware there is no legal obligation and no ethical vet would put a healthy animal to sleep but I could not leave my horse in the hands of this individual. I have sort legal advice and have asked for a public apology. The very least that should be done given the ill treatment of an innocent animal not to mention the stress this has caused me and my family. Instead of the apology I received more threats (this is all in a report to the police) they said “they will take things to a whole new level” if I do not refund back the full amount by 8am today, I have not once said I am not refunding her simply that due to libel comments, videos etc and deformation of character people should be told the truth. Her 6000+ followers need to be aware that this horse behaving in this way due to a succession of awful events. I am truly horrified by these actions and sincerely hope it doesn’t take too long for my horse to recover from this experience.
		
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## Mgoddard (30 June 2020)

honetpot said:



			I hate selling, even when you think someone is knowledgable, you have seen them ride, even seen their set up, you can get caught out. I have one in my paddock that I sold as a three year old, the person buying had been placed at top shows, and yet the pony is not the pony I sold for what ever reason. I sold a calm easy going pony that has come back a stress head, it taken nearly two years for him to be anything like he was.
		
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I have just posted the truth about this girl. I am horrified I fear I will be in the same situation as you ..


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## ester (30 June 2020)

Glad you had her back, I didn't realise the road vid was with a 'pro' on give how easily she could have pulled the horse over from the video.


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## ihatework (30 June 2020)

ester said:



			Glad you had her back, I didn't realise the road vid was with a 'pr'o on give how easily she could have pulled the horse over from the video.
		
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Let’s face it, that was no pro. Probably just her mate who has ridden a couple of years more than her who she slipped a tenner to or something.

God I hate people sometimes! What is wrong with just holding your hands up and saying ‘hey, bad judgement call, overhorsed myself. Thank you to the old owner for having Freckles back?’


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## ester (30 June 2020)

quite!


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## CanteringCarrot (30 June 2020)

Glad the horse ended up out of the buyer's hands.

The threats are ridiculous and I am glad that they were reported. I, personally, don't care if you're 18, 14, or 44, you need to be held accontable for your words and you do not get away with such rubbish! "Take things to a whole new level" come on, get over yourself, you effed up, apologize, learn, and move on. Arrogance and entitlement are two traits that I just cannot stand.


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## Mgoddard (30 June 2020)

ihatework said:



			Let’s face it, that was no pro. Probably just her mate who has ridden a couple of years more than her who she slipped a tenner to or something.

God I hate people sometimes! What is wrong with just holding your hands up and saying ‘hey, bad judgement call, overhorsed myself. Thank you to the old owner for having Freckles back?’
		
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Thank you. Now I have to try and work with this poor mare to undo the damage done..


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## Misty 2020 (30 June 2020)

Mgoddard said:



			Well this has all made for very interesting reading. I am the owner of the horse in question and unfortunately sold her to this individual. Thankfully I have taken this horse back, I was threatened by this person saying if I did not take her back she was being PTS, I know there is no legal obligation and no ethical vet would put a healthy animal to sleep however I am a good and understanding person so for my horses sake I have taken her back. Now that she is safe I can respond to this and also disclose the dreadful behaviour that has been seen (yes I know how does it get worse than threatening to have an animal put to sleep cause it’s not working out). Ok so back to the beginning, Freckles (ridden by my 14 year old daughter) has a nap, this is rearing. More like bunny hops, they are a strop and she works brilliantly once she knows you won’t stand for it, simple. Or this is her reaction to fear, some horses bolt some buck and some rear, all horses have a reaction when stressed or frightened. Another key fact here is this horse was sold (described in the advert, told in person and physically hacked out on 2nd viewing with company) as a horse that DOESN’T hack alone. The new owner decided that on day 5 of ownership she would hack this poor mare out alone. Causing her to of course rear and not the napping previously mentioned, she reared, big and dangerous (I was send videos) She reacted to the fear of being out alone, no time to settle in her new surroundings, quite frankly a monument lack of judgment, compassion and understanding for this poor animal. She contacted me and I calmly explained she doesn’t hack alone and to give her time. Other messages were exchanged (none were heated) and more advice given from myself regarding allowing the horse to settle, bond with her work with her slowly. Did she take this advice? No. Instead she decided to get a “professional rider” to take her out on another hack (with company at least) on a busy road, in what world would this ever help? My 11 year old would know better. I would very much like to know who this rider was because unless she was lied to there is no way any professional would do this if they were aware of the history, length of time she has had the horse etc. I then enquired that evening as to how the day had gone (not knowing any of this) to which I got a horrifying video of my poor horse stressed and rearing in a main road almost coming down on cars, the so called professional rider obviously has not had experience sitting rears as she simply yanked on poor Freckles mouth and I am shocked she didn’t tip right over. I received this plus the threats to have her PTS if I don’t take her back. This girl had shown her true colours and for Freckles safety I took her back. Unfortunately the individual then proceeded to post this dreadful video onto Instagram and try to discredit me on a horse dealer page on Facebook. She claimed she is a novice rider, she didn’t know what she was buying and this was her first horse, all of which are untrue. I have since sort legal advice and have asked for a Public apology which I think is the very least that should be done, as this reckless, cruel individual pushed a frightened, stressed animal and endangered both her and the public in doing so. Instead of an apology I have also received threatening texts (these have been reported to the police) saying if they do not have a full refund by 8am this morning they will “take things to a whole new level” and will come to my home. I have never said I will not refund but due to this horrific actions I think an apology and the truth to the 6000+ followers this person  has on Instagram is the very least that should be done.
		
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I am glad freckles is safe.


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## Dyllymoo (30 June 2020)

Oh this is awful.  I'm so glad you had her back and I hope she is ok


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## PictusSweetDreams (30 June 2020)

I’m glad you have freckles back. I know she has owned a horse previously and had issues with this one too, really does make you question just how much of a novice she is. To be bad mouthing and threatening you like she has is unacceptable and I’m sorry you’re having to go through this


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## ycbm (30 June 2020)

Mgoddard said:



			Well this has all made for very interesting reading. I am the owner of the horse in question and unfortunately sold her to this individual. Thankfully I have taken this horse back, I was threatened by this person saying if I did not take her back she was being PTS, I know there is no legal obligation and no ethical vet would put a healthy animal to sleep however I am a good and understanding person so for my horses sake I have taken her back. Now that she is safe I can respond to this and also disclose the dreadful behaviour that has been seen (yes I know how does it get worse than threatening to have an animal put to sleep cause it’s not working out). Ok so back to the beginning, Freckles (ridden by my 14 year old daughter) has a nap, this is rearing. More like bunny hops, they are a strop and she works brilliantly once she knows you won’t stand for it, simple. Or this is her reaction to fear, some horses bolt some buck and some rear, all horses have a reaction when stressed or frightened. Another key fact here is this horse was sold (described in the advert, told in person and physically hacked out on 2nd viewing with company) as a horse that DOESN’T hack alone. The new owner decided that on day 5 of ownership she would hack this poor mare out alone. Causing her to of course rear and not the napping previously mentioned, she reared, big and dangerous (I was send videos) She reacted to the fear of being out alone, no time to settle in her new surroundings, quite frankly a monument lack of judgment, compassion and understanding for this poor animal. She contacted me and I calmly explained she doesn’t hack alone and to give her time. Other messages were exchanged (none were heated) and more advice given from myself regarding allowing the horse to settle, bond with her work with her slowly. Did she take this advice? No. Instead she decided to get a “professional rider” to take her out on another hack (with company at least) on a busy road, in what world would this ever help? My 11 year old would know better. I would very much like to know who this rider was because unless she was lied to there is no way any professional would do this if they were aware of the history, length of time she has had the horse etc. I then enquired that evening as to how the day had gone (not knowing any of this) to which I got a horrifying video of my poor horse stressed and rearing in a main road almost coming down on cars, the so called professional rider obviously has not had experience sitting rears as she simply yanked on poor Freckles mouth and I am shocked she didn’t tip right over. I received this plus the threats to have her PTS if I don’t take her back. This girl had shown her true colours and for Freckles safety I took her back. Unfortunately the individual then proceeded to post this dreadful video onto Instagram and try to discredit me on a horse dealer page on Facebook. She claimed she is a novice rider, she didn’t know what she was buying and this was her first horse, all of which are untrue. I have since sort legal advice and have asked for a Public apology which I think is the very least that should be done, as this reckless, cruel individual pushed a frightened, stressed animal and endangered both her and the public in doing so. Instead of an apology I have also received threatening texts (these have been reported to the police) saying if they do not have a full refund by 8am this morning they will “take things to a whole new level” and will come to my home. I have never said I will not refund but due to this horrific actions I think an apology and the truth to the 6000+ followers this person  has on Instagram is the very least that should be done.
		
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I really feel for you,  it is stories like this which makes me afraid to ever sell again.  I hope that you can use her appalling behaviour as leverage to reduce the amount you need to refund. 

Well done on putting the horse first, I hope you can find her a better home next time.  

.


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## Wishfilly (30 June 2020)

Glad to hear Freckles is back at home and sorry to hear that you have been threatened over this. 

Just for your peace of mind, I would make sure that you can prove that Freckles belongs to you legally- the last thing you want is for her to now claim you have stolen the horse. Hopefully given you have taken legal advice, they are able to help with this.


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## MagicMelon (30 June 2020)

Mgoddard - I think pretty much everyone here is totally on your side. You've been treated horrendously as has your poor horse. Just keep a note of all your messages and slanderous comments on facebook etc. so you can "take it to a whole new level" if you need to as well.


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## Amymay (30 June 2020)

Glad you’ve taken her back. Once you’ve refunded the money you’ll be able to relax and move forward.


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## Mgoddard (30 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			I really feel for you,  it is stories like this which makes me afraid to ever sell again.  I hope that you can use her appalling behaviour as leverage to reduce the amount you need to refund.

Well done on putting the horse first, I hope you can find her a better home next time. 

.
		
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Thank you! Total nightmare.. I am getting legal advice.


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## Mgoddard (30 June 2020)

MagicMelon said:



Mgoddard - I think pretty much everyone here is totally on your side. You've been treated horrendously as has your poor horse. Just keep a note of all your messages and slanderous comments on facebook etc. so you can "take it to a whole new level" if you need to as well.
		
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Yes I have absolutely everything


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## Amymay (30 June 2020)

Mgoddard said:



			I am getting legal advice.
		
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On what?


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## mini_b (30 June 2020)

@Mgoddard Im so glad freckles has returned home, I really feel for you in this situation and hope that work can be done to get her back on track. 

you disclosed all information to her re her “quirks”, so incredibly selfish to think she knew better.

Just a suggestion, not sure if it’s already been mentioned... if you haven’t the space to keep her as I read your daughter needs something bigger, maybe full loan her out to a competent jockey that you know.


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## Nari (30 June 2020)

Mgoddard I hope that the legal advice says that you are entitled to damages for the things she's posted on the internet, particularly since she didn't even stop after you'd agreed to take Freckles back, and also that action can be taken over her threats. Pursuing it may not be easy, but I'd go for it.


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## Mgoddard (30 June 2020)

Nari said:



			Mgoddard I hope that the legal advice says that you are entitled to damages for the things she's posted on the internet, particularly since she didn't even stop after you'd agreed to take Freckles back, and also that action can be taken over her threats. Pursuing it may not be easy, but I'd go for it.
		
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Thank you. Yes it’s all being looked into


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## Bellaboo18 (30 June 2020)

Thanks for updating the thread. What a nightmare. It's enough to put anyone off selling a horse. 
I was starting to take the view we all make mistakes and thought I'd offer OP help but you just can't work with some people..... 
I hope the drama can be put to bed soon for you. I doubt anyone will be selling her a horse anytime soon.


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## Keira 8888 (30 June 2020)

Cinnamontoast said:



			This made me laugh! 😂
		
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Me too!!!!!!!!!!


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## Cinnamontoast (30 June 2020)

2 or more threats or harassing communications made by phone/electronic message=possible Misuse of Telecommunications Act, I think. (I’ll double check with the OH later), not to mention any slander/libel, although that’s not typically Likely to proceed.


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## Red-1 (30 June 2020)

I am glad Freckles is home. 

If that was a pro rider, I am surprised. I won't be engaging their services.


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## Mgoddard (30 June 2020)

Bellaboo18 said:



			Thanks for updating the thread. What a nightmare. It's enough to put anyone off selling a horse.
I was starting to take the view we all make mistakes and thought I'd offer OP help but you just can't work with some people.....
I hope the drama can be put to bed soon for you. I doubt anyone will be selling her a horse anytime soon.
		
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Let’s hope not..


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## Mgoddard (30 June 2020)

Nari said:



			Thank you so much for the update RubyNoir, I'm relieved it's turned out so well for Freckles but I have a lot of sympathy for the owners. Can they get some legal advice - CAB? BHS? - about whether they have to refund the full amount when the horse has been returned to them worth less due to her bad experiences and also given that the OP has bad mouthed them on social media? It doesn't seem right she should walk away from this at no cost and still carry on libelling people who have done nothing wrong.
		
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I am looking into it.. more threats received last night via someone connected to her because I have asked for a public apology. And yes I have been in contact with the legal team at the BHS (I am a member) and they have given some great advice, as well as being disgusted of course!


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## Mgoddard (30 June 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Glad the horse ended up out of the buyer's hands.

The threats are ridiculous and I am glad that they were reported. I, personally, don't care if you're 18, 14, or 44, you need to be held accontable for your words and you do not get away with such rubbish! "Take things to a whole new level" come on, get over yourself, you effed up, apologize, learn, and move on. Arrogance and entitlement are two traits that I just cannot stand.
		
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Well said! Unfortunately not everyone has these morals.


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## hellfire (30 June 2020)

Mgoddard said:



			I am looking into it.. more threats received last night via someone connected to her because I have asked for a public apology. And yes I have been in contact with the legal team at the BHS (I am a member) and they have given some great advice, as well as being disgusted of course!
		
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Excellent news. The legal team will be able to help you in sure with where to go now and how to go about things. Your not at fault at all and technically it’s slander and harassment so she can take it to a whole other level but doesn’t have a leg to stand on. Good luck and hope it works out for you and your freckles finds the compassionate home she needs.


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## Mgoddard (30 June 2020)

hellfire said:



			Excellent news. The legal team will be able to help you in sure with where to go now and how to go about things. Your not at fault at all and technically it’s slander and harassment so she can take it to a whole other level but doesn’t have a leg to stand on. Good luck and hope it works out for you and your freckles finds the compassionate home she needs.
		
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Thank you! Pretty stressful experience but hey ho. Life goes on just glad my horse is now in safe, sensible hands again.


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## ycbm (30 June 2020)

Amymay said:



			On what?
		
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I would be taking advice on how much of a refund needs to be made,  given that there  was no legal right to return,  and that the horse has been devalued partly because of what was done with her against the advice of the seller,  but mostly because the horse is now all over the net as a serious rearer. 


.


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## Gingerwitch (30 June 2020)

So pleased you have frecks back and enough decent horse folk will point others in this threads direction in the future.  You will probably be immortal now as this thread is bound to come up anytime in the next 20 years as one of the unforgettable ones.


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## smolmaus (30 June 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			You will probably be immortal now as this thread is bound to come up anytime in the next 20 years as one of the unforgettable ones.
		
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I just caught up from page 3 and I have whiplash 😅

Very glad to hear Freckles is home!


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## MiniMilton (30 June 2020)

Well done to Stormox for spotting the link between the FB thread and this one


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## Amymay (30 June 2020)

because the horse is now all over the net as a serious rearer.
		
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Which surely it is? 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## ycbm (30 June 2020)

Amymay said:



			Which surely it is? 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
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But it wasn't when it was sold!  It's become one because the new owner completely ignored the advice how to ride it.  

.


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## Amymay (30 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			But it wasn't when it was sold!  It's become one because the new owner completely ignored the advice how to ride it.
		
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Mmmmm 🤔🤔


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## Roasted Chestnuts (30 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			But it wasn't when it was sold!  It's become one because the new owner completely ignored the advice how to ride it.

.
		
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Agreed. Amazing how relevant this thread has become again with new evidence and the owner coming on to let us know how it’s going. Especially when people had thought it had ran its course 

The horse can’t be hacked alone. That’s not something you can tackle five days into a new partnership. Took me 3months to get one of my horses hacking alone and her rearing made freckles’ look like A bunny Hop. You need to build trust before you tackle ingrained issues, anyone with a grain of horse sense knows that.


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## Cortez (30 June 2020)

Amymay said:



			Mmmmm 🤔🤔
		
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You disagree?


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## Amymay (30 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			You disagree?
		
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Let’s say I’m sceptical.  I think in the sellers shoes I’d just refund the money (although I’m assuming they have), and be done with it.

But then, none of us no what the truth is and what’s fiction.  I guess it’s probably somewhere in the middle 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## Cortez (30 June 2020)

Amymay said:



			Let’s say I’m sceptical.  I think in the sellers shoes I’d just refund the money (although I’m assuming they have), and be done with it.

But then, none of us no what the truth is and what’s fiction.  I guess it’s probably somewhere in the middle 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
Click to expand...

Agree, there is always more than one side to a story, but the buyer has behaved atrociously and the seller has stepped up. I wouldn't have sold the horse at all, but at least the seller was forthright in describing it. The horse has been considerably devalued by it's treatment, to say the least, and the buyer has behaved appallingly and deserves no sympathy at all.

Buyer has condemned herself out of her own mouth.


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## Goldenstar (30 June 2020)

Mgoddard said:



			Well this has all made for very interesting reading. I am the owner of the horse in question and unfortunately sold her to this individual. Thankfully I have taken this horse back, I was threatened by this person saying if I did not take her back she was being PTS, I know there is no legal obligation and no ethical vet would put a healthy animal to sleep however I am a good and understanding person so for my horses sake I have taken her back. Now that she is safe I can respond to this and also disclose the dreadful behaviour that has been seen (yes I know how does it get worse than threatening to have an animal put to sleep cause it’s not working out). Ok so back to the beginning, Freckles (ridden by my 14 year old daughter) has a nap, this is rearing. More like bunny hops, they are a strop and she works brilliantly once she knows you won’t stand for it, simple. Or this is her reaction to fear, some horses bolt some buck and some rear, all horses have a reaction when stressed or frightened. Another key fact here is this horse was sold (described in the advert, told in person and physically hacked out on 2nd viewing with company) as a horse that DOESN’T hack alone. The new owner decided that on day 5 of ownership she would hack this poor mare out alone. Causing her to of course rear and not the napping previously mentioned, she reared, big and dangerous (I was send videos) She reacted to the fear of being out alone, no time to settle in her new surroundings, quite frankly a monument lack of judgment, compassion and understanding for this poor animal. She contacted me and I calmly explained she doesn’t hack alone and to give her time. Other messages were exchanged (none were heated) and more advice given from myself regarding allowing the horse to settle, bond with her work with her slowly. Did she take this advice? No. Instead she decided to get a “professional rider” to take her out on another hack (with company at least) on a busy road, in what world would this ever help? My 11 year old would know better. I would very much like to know who this rider was because unless she was lied to there is no way any professional would do this if they were aware of the history, length of time she has had the horse etc. I then enquired that evening as to how the day had gone (not knowing any of this) to which I got a horrifying video of my poor horse stressed and rearing in a main road almost coming down on cars, the so called professional rider obviously has not had experience sitting rears as she simply yanked on poor Freckles mouth and I am shocked she didn’t tip right over. I received this plus the threats to have her PTS if I don’t take her back. This girl had shown her true colours and for Freckles safety I took her back. Unfortunately the individual then proceeded to post this dreadful video onto Instagram and try to discredit me on a horse dealer page on Facebook. She claimed she is a novice rider, she didn’t know what she was buying and this was her first horse, all of which are untrue. I have since sort legal advice and have asked for a Public apology which I think is the very least that should be done, as this reckless, cruel individual pushed a frightened, stressed animal and endangered both her and the public in doing so. Instead of an apology I have also received threatening texts (these have been reported to the police) saying if they do not have a full refund by 8am this morning they will “take things to a whole new level” and will come to my home. I have never said I will not refund but due to this horrific actions I think an apology and the truth to the 6000+ followers this person  has on Instagram is the very least that should be done.
		
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Well done for doing right by your horse .


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## Ownedby4horses (30 June 2020)

Mgoddard, i am so pleased that Freckles is home and away from this person. 

OP, if you are reading this thread (which i am sure you are!), you should be absolutely ashamed of your behaviour.  You are clearly extremely immature and unaware of the potential consequences of your actions.  Might be time to slope off into the background now, hang your head in shame over the whole situation and say a prayer that you get some money back.


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## scats (30 June 2020)

Glad the horse is home and I hope that not too much damage has been done.


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## SatansLittleHelper (30 June 2020)

Amymay said:



			Let’s say I’m sceptical.  I think in the sellers shoes I’d just refund the money (although I’m assuming they have), and be done with it.

But then, none of us no what the truth is and what’s fiction.  I guess it’s probably somewhere in the middle 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
Click to expand...

Buyer has video evidence of horse rearing,  seller can't prove it didn't do this beforehand when owned by themselves...I sense this could get messy 🤔


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## Goldenstar (30 June 2020)

I would just give the money back life is far to short to waste dealing with people like that .
I would only deal with it through a lawyer .


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## Wishfilly (30 June 2020)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Buyer has video evidence of horse rearing,  seller can't prove it didn't do this beforehand when owned by themselves...I sense this could get messy 🤔
		
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I agree it could get messy and would also refund all the money or all minus transport costs just to get out of the situation.

However, the seller says they disclosed the horse rears and doesn't hack alone and says they advised the buyer not to hack it in front, so they could presumably argue that the buyer put the horse in a situation likely to escalate its behaviour- I don't think the seller has ever claimed that the horse didn't rear? 

The problem with taking these things to court is that usually the person deciding is not horsey and unless it is really clear cut they are unlikely to see any difference between a "bunny hop" and a full "up and nearly over" rear.


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## CanteringCarrot (30 June 2020)

Wait, what?


Seller said that the horses rears. Seller said horse doesn't do well alone or in front while hacking. Buyer is aware. Buyer sets horse up for failure. Buyer complains that horse rears. Buyer states that they knew this though, as seller disclosed. 

Not too messy, really. Maybe if you want to debate the definition of a "rear" and it's details as far as height...or something.


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## Ownedby4horses (30 June 2020)

Maybe im getting tired as had a really busy day but im pretty sure the OP said the horse reared with her when she tried it?  So, its pretty clear the buyer knew what she was buying (putting aside the fact of everything she was told about the horse).


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## Wishfilly (30 June 2020)

I think the potential for things to get messy is because the sellers haven't refunded money, unless I'm misreading the thread. So there could be legal issues with regards to ownership. 

I think the seller is hoping to claim OP has reduced the value of the horse- but I think that would be hard to prove? We can see that the horse has been set up for failure (and plastered all over the internet) but I'm not sure how that would be viewed legally.

But we don't have all the details, so this is just speculation- it depends what has been agreed between the seller and buyer in writing on return of the horse, I think.


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## splashgirl45 (30 June 2020)

i am just pleased the horse is away from this person.  when i first had my loan horse she appeared settled , after about 9 months i realised that she wasnt settled at the beginning, she had shut down and i told the buyer that freckles may only appear to be settled but horses take a long while to get used to new owners, new place, and being treated differently, she took no notice of any of the well intentioned advice most of us gave and at 18 she is old enough to take responsibility for her actions and not blame it on the seller who IMO did the best they could to ensure the horse would be treated in the best way to minimise stress which causes napping/rearing...thank goodness no one was seriously hurt...


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## Misty 2020 (30 June 2020)

realistically non of us were  there and We don’t now the horse . There is always 3 side to every story the seller story , the buyer story, the truth 
Personally I think the buyer and the seller are as bad as each other .


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## Wishfilly (30 June 2020)

I do think from a seller's point of view, selling these sorts of horses can be difficult- often when people have a horse like this that's a bit tricky or has "issues" they manage the situation in lots of subtle ways they may not even really be aware of, and minimise the issues through their management. So, they sell the horse on with what they think is "full disclosure" and the buyer gets on ok when they try the horse because it's kept in situations it can manage.

And then the horse goes with the buyer to a new situation where things are different and gets unsettled, and the buyer does things differently and has problems and feels the seller has not been honest. Even if the seller tries to help, often the buyer just cannot manage things exactly as they did, and it can end up with a really difficult situation for all parties- and of course the horse stuck in the middle of this. That doesn't mean the buyer is justified in slagging the sellers off all over the internet, or in lying, though.

I think it's one of the reasons why buying and selling horses is so tough (especially as a private seller)- you never really know how a horse will react in a new environment until it gets there.


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## Dwyran_gold (30 June 2020)

Amymay said:



			Let’s say I’m sceptical.  I think in the sellers shoes I’d just refund the money (although I’m assuming they have), and be done with it.

But then, none of us no what the truth is and what’s fiction.  I guess it’s probably somewhere in the middle 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
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Amen.


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## ester (30 June 2020)

Im another fence sitting middle, 6 of one, half a dozen of the other person.


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## Ownedby4horses (1 July 2020)

Perhaps it’s best to let this thread lie if it’s going to start picking at the seller now.

I think the way the buyer has handled herself, gone for outright naming and shaming and issuing threats, despite clearly knowing what she was buying and the way the seller has responded says it all clearly to me who is telling the truth. 

Perhaps for the sake of the seller after all she has been put through that we end this thread now? I don’t see the point in dragging it on now. 

Ultimately Freckles is safe and the rest now is up to the seller, legal and the buyer.


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## JJS (1 July 2020)

Dyllymoo said:



			Initial post and advert of horse.

View attachment 50702


View attachment 50703

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While I’m not saying the OP is in the right here, I do think it’s important to point out that the seller stated the horse was suitable for an ‘older child/teenager’ in her original advert.

To me, a horse that can rear - however small they might be - should not be advertised as okay for a child. Look at all the stories on this thread of the horrible injuries that can occur when a horse goes over backwards, and then imagine if that happened with an 11 or 12 year old on board.

Also, having an 18-year-old sister, I think a lot of people are overestimating the OP’s maturity. In a real world sense, she’s still very far from being an adult, and so I personally don’t think she should be held to quite the same standards as, for example, I would be, buying a horse at 28.

Add that to the fact this horse was recommended as being suitable for a child rider, and I think the seller is getting off a little too easily. She essentially sold a known rearer to a teenager who doesn’t seem to have had anyone experienced accompanying her. To me, that’s incredibly irresponsible and makes her just as bad as the teen who underestimated the horse’s issues and placed her in what was - for this particular mare -  a high-stress situation.

With that in mind, I think all of the back patting is a little premature, and that people are being too quick to condemn the buyer while letting the seller off the hook.

That’s my opinion, anyway, and at least the horse is now back with an owner who seems better able to handle her issues 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## Ownedby4horses (1 July 2020)

Freckles rider, whilst with the seller was her 14yr old daughter. x


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## Fred66 (1 July 2020)

Amymay said:



			Let’s say I’m sceptical.  I think in the sellers shoes I’d just refund the money (although I’m assuming they have), and be done with it.

But then, none of us no what the truth is and what’s fiction.  I guess it’s probably somewhere in the middle 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
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Why are you sceptical ?
The OP told us that the seller had disclosed the rearing and that it had reared at the trial. The advert had said it didn’t hack alone and that it was not a novice ride. The Facebook posts contradict her original post on here and show that she is more than happy to play fast and loose with the truth.
The seller has said nothing to indicate that their account is wrong. 
All the evidence points to the truth being considerably closer to the sellers version than the OP.


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## LaurenBay (1 July 2020)

I am another not sure if I would refund the whole amount. I think the seller is correct in getting legal advice. Also the seller mentions having the pony back in her care, if she paid for transport back to hers then surely she can deduct that money too.


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## FestiveFuzz (1 July 2020)

Out of curiosity, am I the only one that wouldn't class rearing as napping? Don't get me wrong, it definitely sits under aversions but I find it a little odd not to call it out specifically in an ad. For me, when someone says napping I think a horse reluctant to move where I want and planting, spinning, reversing to avoid doing what is asked of them...yes there may be bucking and/or rearing as part of that, but I would expect that to be mention alongside the napping, but I'm not really sure why I feel this way so happy to be told I'm wrong. 

I think it's perhaps because when I sold my horse that was prone to napping, not only did I mention what he did and how I handle it, but also that he could sometimes buck/kick out at the whip when planting as I felt some people might not mind dealing with something that won't move forward, but might draw the line at bucking


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## Ambers Echo (1 July 2020)

In my experience nappy horses rear if napping is not nipped in the bud. Amber reared once in her life when napping on a hack when horses went one way and I went the other. Never again but then she was always always in front of my leg after that. And the slightest hint of sticky feet was dealt with firmly. I believe she could rear with other riders.


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## Meowy Catkin (1 July 2020)

Deleted.


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## MiniMilton (1 July 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			In my experience nappy horses rear if napping is not nipped in the bud. Amber reared once in her life when napping on a hack when horses went one way and I went the other. Never again but then she was always always in front of my leg after that. And the slightest hint of sticky feet was dealt with firmly. I believe she could rear with other riders.
		
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Yes this. Napping is the precursor to rearing. Mine naps, reared half heartedly once. Any horse that naps has a very strong possibility that it is going to rear. Whether or not the horse rears really depends on how the napping is dealt with and the riders actions. There is also a blurred line between the two. 
For just one indescression I don't think my horse would be classed as a rearer, but if I sold him and within days someone intentionally faced him with all his worst triggers and pushed him, there is probably a reasonably good chance he would rear. Should I be expected to put "naps and reared once" in his advert? or more sensibly would I just mention it to any potential buyers. 

If people are going to start picking holes in the ad with it saying the horse naps rather than the horse rears, it's important to remember the seller told the buyer in person that it rears (as mentioned in the first post) and it reared on viewing. The buyer knew it reared and didn't mind. Then returned the horse for doing exactly what she knew the horse would do in the circumstances she placed her it. Hacking alone. Then hacking in front. Both of which she was told not to do.


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## Fred66 (1 July 2020)

I think describing the horse as nappy in the advert is sufficient at that stage.
How it manifests itself should then be volunteered with enquirers. 
We had one that could be a bit like this (nowhere near as bad) when asked to leave the hunting field, if you never intended to hunt then it wouldn’t be an issue as he never ever did it elsewhere. 
So in an advert I wouldn’t have felt the need to mention it but would have said not suitable for hunting by a novice. I would then have told them them exactly what he could be like if they phoned or came to try him.
The OP was told he naps, that he rears if he doesn’t want to go forward. That he won’t hack alone and that he should go second if hacking.
She ignored all this. If you read her post she gives the impression that she thought it was just a habit he’d been allowed to continue with, I get the impression she thought she’d just be able to be firm and he’d do as he was told. She   probably believes she is a better rider than she is and unfortunately has found out the hard way that she is not. Totally understandable and forgivable she is only 18 and at that age the confidence of youth can beset anyone. Unfortunately she is now trying to blame her folly on someone else and to my mind she should not be allowed to get away with it. Lessons learned the hard way normally stick and if all it costs her is some money then she has got away lightly.


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## SatansLittleHelper (1 July 2020)

JJS said:



			While I’m not saying the OP is in the right here, I do think it’s important to point out that the seller stated the horse was suitable for an ‘older child/teenager’ in her original advert.

To me, a horse that can rear - however small they might be - should not be advertised as okay for a child. Look at all the stories on this thread of the horrible injuries that can occur when a horse goes over backwards, and then imagine if that happened with an 11 or 12 year old on board.

Also, having an 18-year-old sister, I think a lot of people are overestimating the OP’s maturity. In a real world sense, she’s still very far from being an adult, and so I personally don’t think she should be held to quite the same standards as, for example, I would be, buying a horse at 28.

Add that to the fact this horse was recommended as being suitable for a child rider, and I think the seller is getting off a little too easily. She essentially sold a known rearer to a teenager who doesn’t seem to have had anyone experienced accompanying her. To me, that’s incredibly irresponsible and makes her just as bad as the teen who underestimated the horse’s issues and placed her in what was - for this particular mare -  a high-stress situation.

With that in mind, I think all of the back patting is a little premature, and that people are being too quick to condemn the buyer while letting the seller off the hook.

That’s my opinion, anyway, and at least the horse is now back with an owner who seems better able to handle her issues 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
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This, with bells on..!!!!!!


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## FestiveFuzz (1 July 2020)

MiniMilton said:



			If people are going to start picking holes in the ad with it saying the horse naps rather than the horse rears, it's important to remember the seller told the buyer in person that it rears (as mentioned in the first post) and it reared on viewing. The buyer knew it reared and didn't mind. Then returned the horse for doing exactly what she knew the horse would do in the circumstances she placed her it. Hacking alone. Then hacking in front. Both of which she was told not to do.
		
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Absolutely not picking holes in the ad at all, it was merely a question as if I had a horse that was known to rear when napping I would want to cover myself by putting it in the ad for all to see so that there was no room for misinterpretation later on down the line. Fortunately in this case the OP has posted here acknowledging that she was told it rears and had reared on viewing so the situation appears to be cut and dry, but had the OP only posted what they did on FB it could have been an absolute minefield for the seller given a lot of the disclosure seems to have been given verbally.


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## FestiveFuzz (1 July 2020)

MiniMilton said:



			Yes this. Napping is the precursor to rearing. Mine naps, reared half heartedly once. Any horse that naps has a very strong possibility that it is going to rear. Whether or not the horse rears really depends on how the napping is dealt with and the riders actions. There is also a blurred line between the two.
For just one indescression I don't think my horse would be classed as a rearer, but if I sold him and within days someone intentionally faced him with all his worst triggers and pushed him, there is probably a reasonably good chance he would rear. Should I be expected to put "naps and reared once" in his advert? or more sensibly would I just mention it to any potential buyers.
		
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Sorry made a total hash of quoting there. 

I disagree napping is always the precursor to rearing, but can agree that it could quite easily escalate to that if not dealt with swiftly and correctly. The nappy horse I mentioned never reared as part of his repertoire, but was most definitely a nappy bugger. Perhaps I was just lucky that it didn't escalate as I have a low tolerance for napping and am fairly adept at spotting the signs and riding them forward positively before it becomes an issue, I don't know, but I wouldn't automatically assume a horse that's advertised as nappy would definitely rear with me. Although it's by the by really as in this case the seller disclosed the issue, like I said in my previous post, I was just curious to know if I were alone in thinking nappy doesn't automatically equate to rearer, which it seems like I am. 

With the horse you mention, of course I wouldn't expect you to state in an ad it's napped and reared once, but with the horse in question this is an ingrained habit so for the seller's sake it would have probably been wise to ensure full disclosure of the behaviour was done in writing so that they could easily cover their back if an issue arose with the buyer at a later date.


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## CanteringCarrot (1 July 2020)

FestiveFuzz said:



			Sorry made a total hash of quoting there.

I disagree napping is always the precursor to rearing, but can agree that it could quite easily escalate to that if not dealt with swiftly and correctly. The nappy horse I mentioned never reared as part of his repertoire, but was most definitely a nappy bugger. Perhaps I was just lucky that it didn't escalate as I have a low tolerance for napping and am fairly adept at spotting the signs and riding them forward positively before it becomes an issue, I don't know, but I wouldn't automatically assume a horse that's advertised as nappy would definitely rear with me. Although it's by the by really as in this case the seller disclosed the issue, like I said in my previous post, I was just curious to know if I were alone in thinking nappy doesn't automatically equate to rearer, which it seems like I am.

With the horse you mention, of course I wouldn't expect you to state in an ad it's napped and reared once, but with the horse in question this is an ingrained habit so for the seller's sake it would have probably been wise to ensure full disclosure of the behaviour was done in writing so that they could easily cover their back if an issue arose with the buyer at a later date.
		
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I think I understood it differently. Napping is the precursor to rearing, but not all that nap will rear. However, all that rear will have been napping first. It is true that napping is a precursor as napping generally means the horse is not infront of your leg and respecting forward aids. Rearing is the ultimate way of saying I totally disregard your forward aids.


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## FestiveFuzz (1 July 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			I think I understood it differently. Napping is the precursor to rearing, but not all that nap will rear. However, all that rear will have been napping first. It is true that napping is a precursor as napping generally means the horse is not infront of your leg and respecting forward aids. Rearing is the ultimate way of saying I totally disregard your forward aids.
		
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I think it depends on the horse. I've had some that have reared out of nowhere with absolutely no warning (usually ones that we've later found out have a physical reason for the behaviour), but with the more backwards thinking nappy types I agree it's the ultimate F you in terms of ignoring forward aids.


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## Meowy Catkin (1 July 2020)

I think maybe we should start another thread about napping and rearing. I have things to say about it but don't really feel comfortable having that conversation on this thread.


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## FestiveFuzz (1 July 2020)

Meowy Catkin said:



			I think maybe we should start another thread about napping and rearing. I have things to say about it but don't really feel comfortable having that conversation on this thread.
		
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Done


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## Meowy Catkin (1 July 2020)

FestiveFuzz said:



			Done 

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Brilliant.  I'll put some thoughts on there when I have a bit more time.


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## Ownedby4horses (1 July 2020)

Brilliant idea for a new thread. Great discussion everyone.


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## Billyandme (1 July 2020)

Not to add fuel to the fire but this has just popped up on FB.  Sorry don't know how to do quotes but the OP sister in law now getting involved via Dodgy dealers.  Sorry if this post is inappropriate 
.


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## MiniMilton (1 July 2020)

FestiveFuzz said:



			Absolutely not picking holes in the ad at all, it was merely a question as if I had a horse that was known to rear when napping I would want to cover myself by putting it in the ad for all to see so that there was no room for misinterpretation later on down the line. Fortunately in this case the OP has posted here acknowledging that she was told it rears and had reared on viewing so the situation appears to be cut and dry, but had the OP only posted what they did on FB it could have been an absolute minefield for the seller given a lot of the disclosure seems to have been given verbally.
		
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Yes I think what I have learned from this thread, if selling a horse that is anything less than perfect then the safest thing is to have some sort of recorded evidence of what was spoken during the viewings. Be it video recording etc.


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## Wishfilly (1 July 2020)

Ownedby4horses said:



			Freckles rider, whilst with the seller was her 14yr old daughter. x
		
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I do think there's a difference between being ridden by a teenager with a competent adult around who is in charge of the management of the horse and can advise if there are problems, to being an older teenager keeping a horse independently, maybe without anyone experienced to ask for advice.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (1 July 2020)

Billyandme said:



			Not to add fuel to the fire but this has just popped up on FB.  Sorry don't know how to do quotes but the OP sister in law now getting involved via Dodgy dealers.  Sorry if this post is inappropriate
.
		
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cant see anything 🤔


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## Chinchilla (1 July 2020)

I think the main problem with what OP did buying the horse themselves is, at 18, even if you've spent your life around horses you don't know as much as you might expect for '18 years experience' because you don't take in as much as a very young child so actually probably only have half or less of the years' experience you've been around horses. 

Or at least speaking for myself that's how I feel....


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## Chinchilla (1 July 2020)

Billyandme said:



			Not to add fuel to the fire but this has just popped up on FB.  Sorry don't know how to do quotes but the OP sister in law now getting involved via Dodgy dealers.  Sorry if this post is inappropriate
.
		
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I think it's a different horse. Freckles was £2500, horse in Sister in Law Post on Dodgy Dealers was £2000 and the advert is different.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (1 July 2020)

Chinchilla said:



			I think it's a different horse. Freckles was £2500, horse in Sister in Law Post on Dodgy Dealers was £2000 and the advert is different.
		
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What page as there about 30 dodgy dealer pages 🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## Chinchilla (1 July 2020)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			What page as there about 30 dodgy dealer pages 🤣🤣🤣🤣
		
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I'm so confused lmfao . Is it this one or ????????


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## Roasted Chestnuts (1 July 2020)

Just saw it. Different horse I think as freckles wasn’t lame.


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## ester (1 July 2020)

agreed different.


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## Nari (1 July 2020)

But it shows just how many idiots are out there.


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