# Would you breed from this mare?



## BDyasmine (4 March 2015)

Hello,
My mare has been diagnosed with slight arthritic changes in both stifle joints. The vet said that she could become a happy hacker, though this would not suit her as she is not good to hack, nor do i have the inclination to be a happy hacker. The vet also said I could breed a very nice foal from her, saying that it is unlikely her condition is hereditary. She is field sound.
She is a well bred 9 year old hanovarian by Rhodiamant (Rubinstein) with a lovely temperament. She was competing at medium dressage (schooling AM) and jumping around 1m with scope to go much higher. Although the vet says a foal should not get her condition, I would like to know if anyone has had any first hand experience of breeding from mare with similar conditions. She has been a huge part of my life and I would love to have a foal from her but I dont want to risk ending up with another with the same problem. All opinions much appreciated  Here is a video of her a few years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pjyl5DGX3Q


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## PorkChop (4 March 2015)

She is very lovely, so sorry that she is no longer able to do what you both enjoy - I voted no, because soundness  is crucial.


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## SpringArising (4 March 2015)

I vote no, just because we don't need any more horses in this country at the moment. Just because you could, it doesn't mean you should. 

She is lovely, though.


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## BDyasmine (4 March 2015)

SpringArising said:



			I vote no, just because we don't need any more horses in this country at the moment. Just because you could, it doesn't mean you should. 

She is lovely, though.
		
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the question is more whether the foal is likely to be affected by the condition rather than whether I should breed because 'we dont need any more horses'. it would be for myself anyway so would not contribute to horses needing homes. thanks


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## Exploding Chestnuts (4 March 2015)

Your vet said unlikely, there is no point on asking on here as it is likely to be even less scientific. I would be looking for a scientific analysis, I think somewhere, someone has gathered the information.
I nearly bought a lovely mare, but farrier said he can't sort it, and vet said its hereditary.


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## L&M (4 March 2015)

I haven't voted as 'am on the fence' on this one.

If you were breeding it for yourself then I would go for it, but not if just to give the mare a job and to sell on the open market.

Though I would worry about an arthritic mare carrying a foal in terms of any pressure/pain it may cause her, regardless of whether the condition was hereditary&#8230;..


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## PorkChop (4 March 2015)

If there wasn't a specific event that led to her lameness then it is too much of a risk to breed a foal from her, especially as she is not very old.


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## L&M (4 March 2015)

Sorry just seen you would be breeding for yourself so ignore my comment&#8230;!


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## madlady (4 March 2015)

I wouldn't breed from her because of the arthritis.  Unless a vet would be prepared to state 100% that it isn't hereditary.


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## be positive (4 March 2015)

I do think the condition is potentially hereditary, certainly the genetic predisposition would suggest it likely that a foal would be at risk from developing it, in my view so many horses are getting arthritic changes at very young ages, unrelated to injuries, it may be unscienetific but there has to be a reason why so many young horses are suffering and it may well be due to breeding from mares that have retired early and the poor genes becoming prevalent.
I would breed from one with injury but not from one that has not stood up to work however well bred and nice they are, I would rather go out and buy a nice youngster that way you at least see what you are buying and can take some precautions rather than breeding a seemingly lovely foal that you risk having the same condition, possibly at an even younger age.


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## Dry Rot (4 March 2015)

I read the first three lines of the description and haven't seen the picture, but a definite 'no' from me.

A breeder's first duty is to breed from sound stock. Period.

Very rarely an animal will have some defect but it's other qualities are so outstanding that the defect can be disregarded for one generation but kept in mind for breeding from successive generations. Breeding is like using computers. Garbage in, garbage out.


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## Goldenstar (4 March 2015)

No I would not far far too many warmbloods have stifle issues it would be a complete no no for me .


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## JFTDWS (4 March 2015)

Definitely not.


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## twiggy2 (4 March 2015)

she has it in both stifle joints which indicates it is not caused by trauma so that leave hereditary or conformation issues, my other concern would be her condition worsening whilst carrying the extra weight of pregnancy. even if there was no risk of the foal having the same issues (and I think there is a fair risk) my concern would be for my mare and how pregnancy would effect her.


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## flirtygerty (4 March 2015)

Definately not, whatever the experts say, my mother was riddled with arthritis and so am I, both my daughters are showing signs of early arthritis, so no, not worth the risk, sorry


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## Beausmate (4 March 2015)

No.  Never a good idea to breed from an unsound animal, unless you know the cause of the unsoundness and can be sure it isn't hereditary.


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## Welly (5 March 2015)

Can you find out about her parentage and did they have any of these problems, if they were all sound I would take the risk but, if there was some doubt then no I would not.


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## Maesfen (5 March 2015)

L&M said:



			I haven't voted as 'am on the fence' on this one.

If you were breeding it for yourself then I would go for it, but not if just to give the mare a job and to sell on the open market.

Though I would worry about an arthritic mare carrying a foal in terms of any pressure/pain it may cause her, regardless of whether the condition was hereditary&#8230;..
		
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This exactly.  Pregnancy and foaling put a tremendous strain on their limbs and if they're already compromised you are asking for her to put up with a lot of pain which isn't fair and could leave you in dire straights if she gets into trouble, can't get up or down while foaling.

Sorry, for her sake, I'd say a big NO.


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## tallyho! (5 March 2015)

Totally not.

It's just not ethical which ever way you look at this.


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## Rollin (5 March 2015)

Op says 'slight' arthritic changes.  OK to hack out.

I have a mare who had juvenile arthritis, she has a mishapen hind foot.  I was advised after x-rays, she could never be ridden but no congenital condition.  She has given us two superb foals of quality.

This mare is only 9 years old, so young to have arthritic changes.  Why?  Did OP back her or was she backed in training at 3 years of age?

I am very anti, the pressure from stud books in France, Germany and Holland to see 3 year olds compete under saddle, when I would only train a three year old to walk and trot with a rider in the arena then turn them away till the following spring.

So if the arthritis is as a result of doing too much too soon, I would not be concerned, if she has had a relatively easy life, I would be.


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## ihatework (5 March 2015)

I'm on the fence too.

Many 'sound' horses are bred from but then they have never done much work!!

Many 'sound' horses are bred from but only because the owners cannot recognise very subtle abnormalities or choose not to see them.

Mild arthritic changes in a joint, especially in a competition horse, doesn't mean they are all on the scrap heap and hobbling around making it an unethical choice.

That said, she is 9 and presumably showing sufficient lameness that training/competing is not viable. I don't think you can rule out hereditary or conformational issues being passed down. As you are potentially breeding for yourself, then I wouldn't hold my hands up in horror. But equally I wouldn't be rushing into it if you are concerned about potential problems being passed down to foal.

Only you and your vet know the extent of any damage and if this could cause her suffering during pregnancy. If this is not a concern she might be a good candidate as a recipient mare.


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## GemG (5 March 2015)

Agree with rollin and ihatework...

There are lots of fantastic broodmares out there that have a useful job and are not compromised by a degree of unsoundness. 

Indeed it is amazing how many good horses and very well bred and 'doing' horses show a degree of unsoundness, sometimes unnoticed throughout their life until perhaps a thorough work up shows something. 

All depends on the degree of unsoundness and I'm sure the op 's vet will be best placed to advise whether it is fair or unfair on her.  Then the chance of passing on arthritis , again I would speak to vet and have a thorough discussion.  As another poster pointed out some horses can have changes resulting from a hard innings in young life or such like. Also could be from a slight conformational defect that maybe could have been averted by a good farrier at an early age.  Only the op can tell. 

I did see the video or pictures and she is in mho absolutely lovely and can see why you would want to breed one from her.  I would if I could satisfy myself on above points and know that I would be able to deal with the resulting offspring for better or worse.    Have a good think and chat with vet.


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## MillionDollar (8 March 2015)

For yourself yes, for the market no.


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## GemG (9 March 2015)

MillionDollar said:



			For yourself yes, for the market no.
		
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That's a good way of summing it up!


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## lizziebell (9 March 2015)

MillionDollar said:



			For yourself yes, for the market no.
		
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I slightly disagree. I voted no, for reasons already posted, but also, although the intention would be to breed for yourself - this doesn't always work out, and you need to then have a marketable youngster. It may be too big/ too small for you - not have the temperment for the activities you want to do. Be too sharp or too laid-back for your liking.


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## Apercrumbie (9 March 2015)

I would do some research into her sire/dam/any siblings and see what their soundness record is like.  If they're all coming up sound in work beyond 9, then you would breed a foal for yourself with a stallion with good sound lines.


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## micki (14 March 2015)

It would really depend on why she has the changes going off and if it is still very mild so it wouldn't be unfair on her to breed from her. As you want the foal for yourself then i would say yes if she is upto it. Will you be happy with a horse that isn't really capable of doing the job you want? If yes then go for it, if not and you really want a horse to be able to do a specific job then don't breed and find a good youngster that will be able to do it for you.


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## AdorableAlice (14 March 2015)

It is a no from me but not based on the soundness issues.

Looking at the conformation and movement before considering the soundness and there are plenty of reasons not to breed from her.


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## Equi (14 March 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			It is a no from me but not based on the soundness issues.

Looking at the conformation and movement before considering the soundness and there are plenty of reasons not to breed from her.
		
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Can you PM me with your reasons? Purely to educate myself more. I thought she was a lovely moving and put together mare. 



OP i'm not going to comment because i simply don't know enough to be able to give an answer.


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## Rollin (14 March 2015)

Just looking at the last post, I had a look at your video too.

I have a young horse which turned the right hind, though never lame.  Two visits from a good osteopath and right as rain.

Do you know for certain there are arthritic changes?  If not I would get a good osteo for a second opinion.


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## AdorableAlice (14 March 2015)

equi said:



			Can you PM me with your reasons? Purely to educate myself more. I thought she was a lovely moving and put together mare. 



OP i'm not going to comment because i simply don't know enough to be able to give an answer.
		
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Tried to pm you but bouncing back.


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## Equi (14 March 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			Tried to pm you but bouncing back.
		
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That's weird! I know it's definitely not full. Might be cause I changed my password recently (I then had issues getting back on because it had to be reconfirmed but didn't send an email etcetc) maybe I have to wait a few days??


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