# Sarcoids - Young gelding



## Zebe (11 April 2015)

I'm sorry i know there are many sarcoid threads, i have read most of them.. but I'm now so worried I decided to post.

I have a beautiful 3 year old  bay gelding that i breed. No sign of sarcoids on either side of breeding. He is only just 3! And noticed end of summer 2014 a couple of small nodules. I was advised to leave them and they would go away! He now has about 6-8 all vary in size from pea size to 2 pence size round and shiny and on underside/belly to groin area.  He also has about 20 flatish small warts on his groin and a couple on inside back legs, some look like they could turn into small nodules. Also a couple of long warts resembling skin tags on his groin. No sign they are going away! Im feeling quite desperate especially after reading all the horror stories.

My plan is to band the bigger ones, tie some of the smaller ones and use castor oil on them all at the same time once they fall off. An old skool method used by some local old horsemen. 

This week i started giving him 3x zinc tablets crushed in his feed, for his immune system.

If all this fails I am not excited at all about trying Liverpool cream. I may try xxterra before LP but undecided. Please can anyone give me their experience/thoughts? Anyone have lots of types like this on their young horse?

Thanks


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## ycbm (11 April 2015)

I have a five year old who has had them since four, very similar in size and place by the sound of it. I remove them with copper sulphate crystals, which leaves a very nasty looking raw hole, which I then treat with aloe vera, a known skin cancer cure in experiments with mice. He is still popping up new ones on new areas, which I remove as they appear.  PM me if you want more details.


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## Goldenstar (11 April 2015)

Zebe said:



			I'm sorry i know there are many sarcoid threads, i have read most of them.. but I'm now so worried I decided to post.

I have a beautiful 3 year old  bay gelding that i breed. No sign of sarcoids on either side of breeding. He is only just 3! And noticed end of summer 2014 a couple of small nodules. I was advised to leave them and they would go away! He now has about 6-8 all vary in size from pea size to 2 pence size round and shiny and on underside/belly to groin area.  He also has about 20 flatish small warts on his groin and a couple on inside back legs, some look like they could turn into small nodules. Also a couple of long warts resembling skin tags on his groin. No sign they are going away! Im feeling quite desperate especially after reading all the horror stories.

My plan is to band the bigger ones, tie some of the smaller ones and use castor oil on them all at the same time once they fall off. An old skool method used by some local old horsemen. 

This week i started giving him 3x zinc tablets crushed in his feed, for his immune system.

If all this fails I am not excited at all about trying Liverpool cream. I may try xxterra before LP but undecided. Please can anyone give me their experience/thoughts? Anyone have lots of types like this on their young horse?

Thanks
		
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There's no way I would be mucking on with them myself ,I would be getting an opinion from a vet who is specialist in this area ASAP .
Multiple sarcoids are not to be trifled with .


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## ycbm (11 April 2015)

I've had three vets now tell me that they can't get any better result with Liverpool cream than I do with copper sulphate


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## Zebe (12 April 2015)

Thanks for your comments. The LP cream is only used by one vet that i know of and he sells it to administer yourself! Its possibly different in the UK. Living rurally in Ireland we have learned to mend our horses, i know it sound bizarre but for a lot of people we have to. And I have found for a lot of ailments that old skool methods do work. I don't fancy handling the LP cream myself it sounds pretty nasty stuff, I might be wrong be believe it contains arsenic, mercury and is radio active?! So Im just hoping that there is someone out there in my shoes who has success with a treatment for a young horse. I wondered if him being so young it could be a case of building up his immune system and treating whats there?! 

Copper sulphate sounds interesting did it also work on the small flatish warts?


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## Meowy Catkin (12 April 2015)

The major issue here is that there are several types of sarcoid. Some should be treated and some should be left well alone as messing with them causes them to worsen exponentially. This is why home remedies and messing about with sarcoids without any Veterinary input is never recommended.


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## Greys (12 April 2015)

It's difficult and everyone tells you different things, possibly because everyones has completely different experiences. 

I brought a gelding a year ago with three, one fairly large near his girth, one on his shoulder and one suspect tiny lump near his eye. I was not prepared to start chucking money around so after talking to friends and my vet we used bands. For us this worked extremely well, we left the eye one alone and it has since disappeared. 

It's also difficult as some treatments are considered cruel, I would not say that the lamb bands were comfortable for him and they were a mission to get on! Although in the long run his future is alot more secure without sarcoids.

good luck


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## Golden_Match_II (12 April 2015)

I'd get a vet out straight away, sarcoids are cancer and should not be messed about with - you'd be cross if you had skin cancer and a friend just told you to rub aloe vera on it! Also, the longer you leave them without veterinary intervention, the more sarcoids will pop up - and once he has had them now he is likely to have recurring problems. If you can try to catch them earlier then he will have fewer in future.

As for Liverpool cream - the person who came up with the formula for it has always said it does not work on all sarcoids, but it is effective on some. Again, bands will only work on certain types, as some will have deep roots and so will grow back regardless of banding them. A vet will be able to tell you what the appropriate action to take is, but I can't stress enough how seriously you need to take this, and how imperative it is that you get a vet out.


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## tinafletcher1 (12 April 2015)

hi, my horse had sarcoids. one on his back under saddle area near to his spine, and others on inside of his foreleg. I used homeopathic cream and tablets. was very sceptical. religiously used twice daily as recommended. there were three pea sized ones on his leg which I banded. they have disappeared and not returned nearly two years later. other horse also had them on his leg previously and we used LP cream on him at great expence . his have not returned either in over two yrs. the homeopathic stuff  is called thulla?? was worth the try and worked.


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## ycbm (12 April 2015)

Before sarcoids were officially recognised as skin cancer, we old timers used to deal with them ourselves all the time, just like it sounds like the Irish still do. Anything with enough skin behind it had lamb castrator rings put on them.  Wart remover works on ones that actually look like warts. To answer your question, Zebe, yes, copper sulphate has worked on flat ones, button ones, occult ones (where the only sign is a coloured circle in the hair), and the root that can still be left of ones that fall off after being tied off.

Copper sulphate treatment is not for you unless you are prepared to attack it hard, cause an open hole where it dies, attack it again if it does any sign of coming back to life, and taking all the responsibility for how it may turn out on your own shoulders. But if you are that person, the treatment costs pence, leaves no more scar (possibly less)   than Liverpool Cream, is much less toxic (you don't have to worry about going over the edges into good tissue like you do with LC).  I've held b ack from recommending it for twenty years, but I've now done so many, and had three vets confirm my results, that I'm prepared to go public about it.


Here is one after five days treatment. There are two sarcoids there, you can see the two circles. It is now completely healed with a small hairless smooth scar.


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## Zebe (12 April 2015)

hi, thanks for all the comments.

ycbm - thank for uploading a photo, it must be a relief that you have found something that works. I can see the CS blue tone on the sore, are you putting anything on to aid healing?

It does generally seem that what works for one doesn't always work for another. 

Tina, what did you use? thuja?

I do understand others points at being multiples that i should call the vet asap. I will call and pay 70 euro call out because im feeling like a bad owner if i don't but i do already know what he will say and suggest. He's treated other cases I know using the LP cream. Im not saying its wrong but im just not ready for that cream.

I almost feel if i can successfully remove the bigger ones with banding the smaller ones would get under control and disappear with an application of something..still deciding what that something is! (a gut instinct) Because he is young the and with the bigger ones gone maybe his immune system could fight the small ones?!

If someone has had a similar experience and had success with a treatment can you please share with me.

Thanks again all

Zebe


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## ycbm (12 April 2015)

Be aware that banding will not necessarily kill it. I have banded two which had deep star shaped roots behind the band. If you are not prepared to treat the root, you could end up with one heck of an angry sarcoid.

You have mistaken my photo. That was after five days of applying copper sulphate. Both sarcoids have now gone and there is a small flat hairless scar.

This is what happens when the sarcoid dies, and you treat that hole with aloe vera as it heals, to suppress any rogue cells that are left.

I will get a picture of the finished result tomorrow, I am very pleased with it.


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## Zebe (12 April 2015)

It does look sore but nice and clean! Looks like it would heal well! Look forward to seeing final result. 

When you say to be prepared to treat the root when banding, what do you mean? Did you pull and twist before banding to get the root? Some of his nodules will be too small to band so will try and use cat gut.

Your pictures are very helpful, i'll take some of my fella through whatever treatment we decide on, hopefully it can help others. It would be great to be a success story!!

Did your small warts go with one application?

Thanks again


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## ycbm (12 April 2015)

Some have such a deep root that pulling and twisting them will do nothing, the root still lives.

They can take days or more than a week to die and drop out. The cracking you see around the rim of the bigger one in the first photo is typical of the round ones. The flat ones tend to disintegrate in pieces.

Small ones drop out looking like this. This was a pimple 2mm across, hiding this 6mm sarcoid.


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## Zebe (12 April 2015)

Wow! thats quite amazing! I've seen so many photos but not one like this. You were lucky to get it/find it! its like half a pea!

Would you say the longer its there or the larger it is the deeper the root? Maybe where is grows?! Praying for easy roots!!

Do you think hair will grow back on the patches?


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## ycbm (12 April 2015)

That was a pimple one, they don't have roots. The ball ones have roots, more often than not in my experience. Regrowth of hair depends on how big they were on the surface, the bigger ones leave a hairless patch, though I have had some that closed over with hair completely.


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## Rivendell (13 April 2015)

Just be aware that when you mess around with sarcoids they can come back nastier than ever.  They send off tendrils of cells into the surrounding tissue, and if all these cells are not destroyed the sarcoid can re-grow, and usually in a more severe form.  They are not something to be taken lightly.  I would recommend at least having a conversation with your vet about it.


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## ycbm (13 April 2015)

Rivendell said:



			Just be aware that when you mess around with sarcoids they can come back nastier than ever.  They send off tendrils of cells into the surrounding tissue, and if all these cells are not destroyed the sarcoid can re-grow, and usually in a more severe form.  They are not something to be taken lightly.  I would recommend at least having a conversation with your vet about it.
		
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This, this and three times this. DO NOT attempt to follow my method unless you are prepared to stuff poison into an open wound to be 100% certain that you have killed every rogue cell.

Having said that,, here is the almost finished result of the removal of the double sarcoid which was perilously close to this horse's eye.  It is normal looking skin, just hairless, which is continuing to regain its black pigmentation. The little white patch is just like the rest only it hasn't yet turned black, but looks like it is going to as it gets smaller every day.   The scar is smaller by a good margin than the two sarcoids were.  It took three attempts to kill it completely, twice a 'skin' rather than a proper scab grew over the wound, which is sarcoid regrowth. It was my own fault, it was so close to his eye that I was not as aggressive with it as I normally am. The third time, I was, and it has healed beautifully.








PS yes he really does have a blue ring inside a brown iris, it's lovely!


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## tinafletcher1 (13 April 2015)

hi, yes thuja cream and tablets. as everyone says its a matter of personal choice. My insurance wouldn't pay out on them as my horse has had other tumors, so had to find an alternative treatment.luckely they worked.T


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## gunnergundog (13 April 2015)

Unless you have a good experienced sarcoid vet locally that you trust I would take photographs of each and every one and email them to Knottenbelt along with a grovelling email!    He is very generous with his time and there is noone I would trust more than him.

As an aside....I used the Liverpool ointment on a 4 year old back in 1994; it had one sarcoid on the inside of its forearm.  At that time you were allowed to apply the ointment yourself, which I did, and although a crater four times the size of the sarcoid developed, it healed well and there was no re-ocurrence.  The horse lived until 24;  it never had another sarcoid and was euthanised for a totally different reason.


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## Zebe (14 April 2015)

I just spoke to my vet and he said to take pictures and send them to Knottenbelt! He must be a very rich man, I think im in the wrong business


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## shergar (14 April 2015)

Our vet took photos of a patch on the face of a mare we have ,and sent them to Knottenbelt,  who diagnosed a sarcoid and recommended liverpool cream,I did my own research many vet books ect and was convinced that it was fungal,two tubes of caniston 
cream cured it  and the hair grew back ,that was about  ten years ago.
There was another post on here a while back the horse had sarcoids removed turned out to also be fungal.
Have a look at THE TURMERIC USER GROUP on face book some good results feeding it to horses the sarcoids are falling off,and that site is run by a vet Doug English.


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## Meowy Catkin (14 April 2015)

That might be my grey horse that you are referring to. Her lumps weren't diagnosed before removal, but the options/possibilities (melanoma, sarcoid or something else) were discussed and removal without biopsy was decided on as the best way forwards. She's just had two more lumps removed today, so we'll see what the histology report says this time. Sadly the fungus she has is deep in the skin, so wouldn't respond to a topical treatment.


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## Zebe (15 April 2015)

Shergar, Thats funny I was only reading about Turmeric! There's no harm in putting some in he's feed so think i'll give that a go. Also going to get 200c of thuja tomorrow. Gonna try this and banding. What did the fungus look like? were they nodules? warts?

My vet also told me yesterday that they can come back with the Liverpool cream and can take 2 years to reappear. So nothing is reliable. So therefore no harm in trying other options. Faracat, how is her diet? you need to eliminate sugar for fungus to die off, you most likely know that already. I know you can get drops to put in their water (homopathy) aim is treating inside out. I spoke to someone today at Ainsworth of london (homopathy) very knowledgeable on horses, just an option, if you want their number pm me.


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## Meowy Catkin (15 April 2015)

Well the poor beast is a real good doer and has spent most of the winter having just small amounts of straw chaff, micronised linseed and a handful of oats as a carrier for her supplement, plus adlib meadow hay. The fungus she has is very rare apparently. While I find unusual medical cases interesting, I don't really want to be the owner of one, especially as she's such a nice girl and unfortunately seems to be a walking accident, illness and medical oddity magnet.


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## Hayleighm175 (15 April 2015)

My mare developed a sarcoid at 3.. they flies were always making it bleed.. i left it.. and now no sarcoid! She's now 7.


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## Meowy Catkin (15 April 2015)

Hayleighm175 said:



			My mare developed a sarcoid at 3.. they flies were always making it bleed.. i left it.. and now no sarcoid! She's now 7.  

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How do you know it was a sarcoid though? Was it sent for histology after it dropped off? As I sadly know, there are other causes for lumps and they can look alike until they are analised by the lab.


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## Zebe (15 April 2015)

I think if my fella had only 1 i would see if it was age related and leave it hoping he'd grow out of whatever caused it, but there are a good few nodules and lots of warts I really do have to do something now. Also like faracat said it may not have been a sarcoid, i think thats why no one treatment works, too many different issues. Faracat when do you get the results back? Always happens to the nice ones doesn't it! Not that i'd want it to happen to any off them!


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## Meowy Catkin (15 April 2015)

Hopefully the results will come on Tuesday. Of course I'm really hoping that it is a fungus again, as she's grey the possibility of melanoma is always lurking.  Yes, it does seem that the nice horses have terrible bad luck. Have you read Michen's threads about her TB? A lovely horse with a super caring owner and he's back at the Vet's for yet more tests - poor chap.


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## Zebe (15 April 2015)

No haven't read it,  i'll have a look for it. 

I'll keep finger crossed for you that you have good news on tuesday!
Regarding lumps, I was with a friend today who works in the hospitals, she said that turmeric is being used to treat cancer patients, i know it sounds mad that something from our kitchen shelves can help but it was being used in India for years. Has to be high quality though, it has powerful medicinal compound in it called Curcumin, so make sure its not the cheapo stuff that the curcumin has been taken out. They take it out to make capsules and sell in the healthfood shops.
I've been using it in all my cooking because it helps my joints but never thought to give it to the horse!


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## ycbm (15 April 2015)

Zebe said:



			My vet also told me yesterday that they can come back with the Liverpool cream and can take 2 years to reappear. So nothing is reliable. So therefore no harm in trying other options. .
		
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Every harm in trying other options, possibly, sorry      If you band one and it has a deep root which you do not kill, you may aggravate it into becoming very aggressive. It is believed that they can seed internal tumours, and if that's true then the horse could die.  

In spite of the fact that I treat my own horses, I echo the concern people are expressing in this thread of  trying to treat something that you do not fully understand, when you have been advised to get an expert opinion by your vet.


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## Zebe (15 April 2015)

I understand what you are saying but that same vet told me that they could reappear with Liverpool cream so a cure is not certain! I will band with the help of someone very experienced and has been around animals 2 life times longer than my vet. 

Doug English is a vet, a qualified well respected vet, he's had a lot of success with tumeric so if i take his advice and try tumeric why am i doing harm?! It really does seem like whatever you do is a gamble, there's no one correct answer. Every horse is different and needs the treatment that suits them, unfortunately it is us that have to make the choice from a minefield of choices, non of which are certain. If i was sick with lumps i wouldn't send photos to a Doctor to get a diagnosis! That would be insane. How can you diagnose  a serious condition from photos. It makes me feel very uneasy. How is this one man sitting up in an office in liverpool controlling this whole operation, surely if he had animal welfare at heart he wouldn't be making such serious decisions via email photos!


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## Rivendell (15 April 2015)

I agree that adding turmeric to the diet won't do any harm.  I think ycbm was more meaning playing around with treatments on the sarcoids themselves.

I totally understand your reservations about Knottenbelt diagnosing from pictures but be assured he is world renowned as the sarcoid specialist.  Specialists from as far away as Australia send him pictures and he recommends the treatment.  It is not the same as seeing them in person, but even from behind a computer he is the most qualified person to make recommendations.  As mentioned before, because sarcoids have such long roots it can be impossible to kill them - and if there are cells left behind they will grow back, regardless of what was done to try fix them.  The reason there are so many possible treatment options is because nothing works perfectly.  Sarcoids are such a nasty thing and I really wish horses didn't get them!


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## shergar (15 April 2015)

Zebe said:



			I understand what you are saying but that same vet told me that they could reappear with Liverpool cream so a cure is not certain! I will band with the help of someone very experienced and has been around animals 2 life times longer than my vet. 

Doug English is a vet, a qualified well respected vet, he's had a lot of success with tumeric so if i take his advice and try tumeric why am i doing harm?! It really does seem like whatever you do is a gamble, there's no one correct answer. Every horse is different and needs the treatment that suits them, unfortunately it is us that have to make the choice from a minefield of choices, non of which are certain. If i was sick with lumps i wouldn't send photos to a Doctor to get a diagnosis! That would be insane. How can you diagnose  a serious condition from photos. It makes me feel very uneasy. How is this one man sitting up in an office in liverpool controlling this whole operation, surely if he had animal welfare at heart he wouldn't be making such serious decisions via email photos!
		
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It makes me feel very uneasy ,but they do have a six million pound intensive care unit to pay for ,and getting it wrong can be very profitable.
The one thing about  turmeric is the drug companies can not patent any thing that comes from nature.
Do you know you can put turmeric on sarcoids? ask Doug English
The photos that our vet sent to Knottenbelt looked like a chestnut on a horses  leg she had a smaller one under her eye that was a nodule that went away with out treatment.
If you decide to use the the turmeric ,can you keep us posted please.
There is a product called Sarc x it contains turmeric and pepper I think it costs about £40.


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## HelenS (15 April 2015)

Turmeric doesn't work on every horse so please don't pin your hopes on it. Neither does Sarc X, bloodroot, thuja, banding, toothpaste, surgical removal and freezing, or Liverpool cream. Believe me I have tried the lot. My youngster is about to undergo his 4th round of Liverpool cream as the previous 3 treatments over the past 2 years have either worked, not worked, or made them bigger depending on the type of sarcoid (he has mixed sarcoids). Banding caused both the sarcoids that it was used on to come back more aggressively. Thuja, turmeric (used topically with sudacreme, and mixed with oil and pepper in his food) had no effect, as did bloodroot which made them sore but didn't change them. The surgery and freezing looked successful except we suspect that there are tiny nodules growing again. Toothpaste, which was a prescription only variety, made a gooey mess and did nothing. Nothing at all with thuja.

However, that being said, his mother had 3 sarcoids round her udder at the same age which were treated with Liverpool cream successfully. I lost her years later aged 18 to a totally unrelated cause. So it can also work on some horses. Some horses are lucky and they just disappear over time, and some do go away with the more gentle treatments suggested above. Sadly mine is not one of them.

My youngster is now having one last treatment which will be laser on the ones suitable for it, and a different mix of Liverpool cream on the others. No idea what we will do if that is not successful.

ycbm and I have been in conversation about this, and the suggestion put forward may be my final last ditch attempt if this next round of treatment doesn't work.

Sarcoids are a nightmare that I sincerely wished I didn't have. Fortunately he appears to be blissfully unaware of my sleepless nights!


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## ycbm (16 April 2015)

They really are foul things, and multiple ones are apparently a very big warning sign. Unfortunately I have one, also young, whose immune system just seems to have no defence to them. I've dealt with at least thirty around his sheath and belly, two on his face, and then noticed one tiny pimple on his inner thigh last week. I treated that in an area four inches across, because I know now how these things work, and he now has a circular  patch of nodular sarcoid two inches wide falling off. All there was to show for that when I started was a flat pimple less than 2mm in size on a hairless piece of skin. Thankfully, I bought him knowing his issues and I've learnt a lot from him. 

Yes, in my post above I was referring to topical treatment, I see no harm in feeding them what you like. OP,  If you are going to band them then I strongly advise you to poison the root when it drops off, whether it looks like it needs it or not. On the two half inch size ball type ones I have banded, on two different horses, a two inch wide star shaped root died when I did that. 

If anyone is out of insurance or at last chance saloon, I'm happy to tell you what I do (at your risk, I can take no responsibility for what you choose to do) if you PM me, otherwise stick with your vet and mess with them at your peril!


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## w1bbler (16 April 2015)

l really feel for you op. I went down the vet, Liverpool cream (& bcg for the 1 near his eye) route, which was looking good, although some needed re-treatment. Just over a year after treatment started he became quite poorly & was eventually pts age 7 with a huge tumour inside.
I believe the sarcoids were an outward sign of what was occurring inside.


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## Zebe (17 April 2015)

Been on foaling watch!! Yawn.

All my fellas are on his groin area and belly. Thinking back he had an awful time when he was gelded, he was so swollen i had to call the vet back and he put him on antibiotics. There were also lots of cattle near by, so probably the start of it! Low immune system, open wound and horrible flies!!

W1bbler, im so sorry you had to put your fella to sleep, that very sad and so young. I do think your case was probably an extreme one as i haven't heard this happening generally. I do believe it is something to do with their immune systems though and like us if we are low we can become susceptible to lots of ailments/diseases etc. 

ycbm, yes thanks, once the banded and tied ones drop off we will be treating them all then and not before.

Helen, you really have tried everything, is so stressful! As if we don't have enough to worry about in life! i really hope your last attempt is successful! 

Shergar, of course I will let you know. I won't be putting anything topical on, only going to do it once when they fall off. ATM, Im giving him 200c thuja twice a day diluted in water in a syringe then down his throat and crushed zinic in his feed. Im trying to locate a good quality tumeric, the fbk website tell you how much to use and you must use it with fresh grounded black pepper to make it work. It really does help my joints so D.E must be onto something. 

Rivendell, thanks for your comments. Is it sensationalised though through media etc?! Vets go on courses all the time don't they, they have to to update their skills and knowledge so why is he not educating others to prevent us all sending him photos and diagnosing via email. For the moment its on the back burner, i hope i don't have to go there!

Another vet is also holding xxterra for me but thats also on the back burner ahead of LPc.

Where is this (swear word) Vaccine the US are meant to be working on and who is working on it?!


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## ycbm (17 April 2015)

Your criticism of Professor Knottenbelt is very unfair. He IS spreading information. It's here, freely available and very easy to find on Google. There's also a video he made, I'll try and find it.

http://www.liv.ac.uk/sarcoids/

The link between sarcoids, particularly multiples, and internal growths is well known. I have a friend who lost a horse to internal tumours who had a large bleeding one on his sheath.  They may not have been connected, of course, but people believe there is a link.


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## Zebe (17 April 2015)

Im sorry you feel that way but i was not criticising just asking the questions, really to myself, is he so well known because of the media coverage. I have read that link seen videos etc etc. I've spent the past week doing my research as others have done. Not all medics agree with one another not all scientists agree with one another, it is ok to question or disagree. Im on the bench, LP is on the back burner, i haven't ruled it out but i have lots of questions. And for my own health and stress levels i have to remain positive!

I will report back with progress for those who are interested.


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## ycbm (17 April 2015)

Zebe said:



			Im sorry you feel that way but i was not criticising just asking the questions, really to myself, is he so well known because of the media coverage. I have read that link seen videos etc etc. I've spent the past week doing my research as others have done. Not all medics agree with one another not all scientists agree with one another, it is ok to question or disagree. Im on the bench, LP is on the back burner, i haven't ruled it out but i have lots of questions. And for my own health and stress levels i have to remain positive!

I will report back with progress for those who are interested.
		
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 You wrote this, apparently after having read his thirty page website all about sarcoids and watching his thirty minute video. 




			why is he not educating others?
		
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What more do you expect him to do, he can hardly help being a world expert that everyone wants to consult?

Can I ask what your problem is with Liverpool cream?  Just the cost, or something else? I know you have been told that they can come back, but that is true of any treatment. A friend of mine has had a good result with it, though it did take two goes.


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## Zebe (17 April 2015)

I did read the Liverpool uni website! Why on earth would i say i did if i didn't, i can't even believe im explaining!!!

Regarding "Others" I meant qualified VETS being able to offer this/his knowledge without going via email photos.. and waiting 3 WEEKS for a reply!

My Problem with LP is: 
IT ISN'T A CURE for everyone! therefore it isn't a cure. If it was a cure I would use it despite the nasty ingredients because i would have confidence that it would "cure" my horse. In all my massive amounts of reading i also read "Knottenbelt was wrong on ragwort" Not saying he's wrong with Sarcoids and find all his information informative and facinating but I am saying again it is not a cure..Yet. For those it has cured i am delighted for them. For those it hasn't I hope something will. So im looking at all of my choices and options. 

It's become pretty obvious that you are on here looking for an argument. It's NOT helping me or others looking to make such a hard decisions about their precious horses!


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## Golden_Match_II (17 April 2015)

All licensed drugs don't work in 100% of cases (let alone homeopathic remedies,) so I'm afraid if you choose not to use Liverpool Cream on this basis you will be very limited as to what you can use at all. It is not a well-reasoned argument, as on that basis no drugs or treatments would be worth using at all. 

I still feel that if your vet has recommended sending pictures to Derek Knottenbelt then the best thing for your horse's welfare would be to do so and take any necessary advice - whether it's to use Liverpool Cream, or another treatment. If I had a cancer, I would rather get advice from the world expert than from an online forum, and so I don't really understand why you feel Derek Knottenbelt is in the wrong. When you say he is not passing on information to others - he very much is! I'm a vet student and attended lectures given by him telling us how to approach sarcoids and it was very informative


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## Zebe (17 April 2015)

I simply answered ycmb question on what my problem was with LP. I haven't ruled it out either. 

If someone had cancer they wouldn't send photos via email to someone else, they would see a consultant who has learned what he has from the the best, in training and in extended training etc. Why is that not the situation on this particular ailment, why do our vets not have this knowledge to analyse and treat. If i was a student vet i would eventually want to become a vet and treat every problem i could myself, and not ask customers to send photos off via email. Does that not make sense?!!!

btw i have now consulted 2 vet with 2 different opinions. Ip dip do!! What now!!?


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## spacie1977 (17 April 2015)

I don't know if it's already been mentioned (sorry if it has -I've had a quick scan but this thread is getting big) but I've heard turmeric can really help. You can add it to his feed, and I've heard some people make a paste with it and smear it on the sarcoids.


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## Meowy Catkin (17 April 2015)

Zebe said:



			"Knottenbelt was wrong on ragwort"
		
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Was that the crazy ragwort fanatic and his/her group who thought that you shouldn't remove ragwort from horse grazing by any chance was it? They had an epic thread on here a while back where they were very critical of Prof DK and IIRC, lied about other experts who they claimed supported their view. The experts then came on the thread to correct the lies.


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## YasandCrystal (17 April 2015)

My 6 yr old had an aggressive fibroblastic sarcoid and I treated it with toothpaste. It shrivelled and dropped off in 10 days. The hair regrew and the vet was gobsmacked, she has been on turmeric micronised linseed and black pepper since and I have had no recurrence of any sarcoid in 2 years now. The turmeric user group on facebook has some amazing stories and helpful information in the files.


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## Zebe (17 April 2015)

faracat, that would be an interesting read, it just goes to show, that you can't believe everything on the internet!

Spacie, thank you, we are looking into trying tumeric & blk pepper as an additional supplement 

Yasandcrystal, so great to hear a positive story and amazing you had success with toothpaste! It must have killed the root for it not to have come back! What a relief for you. I did read about toothpaste, something to do with the fluoride!?
Do you feed her the tumeric everyday all year round? Did you try anything before the toothpaste?


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## Meowy Catkin (17 April 2015)

It should still be on here if you want to search for it. There might even have been two threads (or more) as she/he went away and then came back to rant about it again at least once. One thread was called something along the lines of 'ragwort - I've had it with the myths!' I can't even remember what the myths supposedly were, but I certainly haven't stopped pulling ragwort from the fields.


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## Meowy Catkin (21 April 2015)

Zebe said:



			Faracat when do you get the results back?
		
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Just got them today - it's the blasted fungus again. Much better than melanoma or a sarcoid though.


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## Zebe (21 April 2015)

At least you know what your dealing with now! Fungus is hard to shift though once in the system. What do you treat it with? I would personally cut starches & sugars out. Also apparently grass is richer in sugar the day but i only heard this if true you could turn out at night or turn out on limited grass. 

Im rethinking my options about what im going to do. Not banding for now anyway!


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## Meowy Catkin (21 April 2015)

The vet once again stated that a topical treatment wouldn't do anything as it's deep in the skin.  I don't think that i could cut any more carbs from her diet without taking her completely off grass (which is restricted).

I hope you come to a solution RE your horse's sarcoids.


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## Zebe (21 April 2015)

Have you tried any candida remedies? Fungus tends to be on the inside and works its way out to the skin, it keeps coming back if not treated inside out. I have been treating myself for over a year and never been better. My GP prescribed me lots of pills to go on long term so I thought i'd try alternative first even though i was sceptical. Im so much better. Could be worth a try! Heat, warmth and moldy conditions makes it worse so need to be avoided. Difficult I know! Mold is everywhere, even the cleanest straw bedding! They break you heart don't they!! I do wonder if some sarcoids are really fungus, my fellas went mad since feeding beet pulp, might just be a coincidence though. I've been cutting back on his sugar & starches anyway.


I hope to come back with some successful before and after photos!


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## shergar (21 April 2015)

Faracat said:



			Just got them today - it's the blasted fungus again. Much better than melanoma or a sarcoid though.
		
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Have you tried feeding turmeric to treat the fungus,may be speak with Doug English the vet that started the turmeric user group .
Or have a look at TISSUE SALTS FOR HORSES blood purifier,cell  healer, I think that site is called equine botanicals .
Echinacea to boost the immune system may help, just a thought  as some one else has said treat it from the inside.


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## Queenbee (22 April 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			There's no way I would be mucking on with them myself ,I would be getting an opinion from a vet who is specialist in this area ASAP .
Multiple sarcoids are not to be trifled with .
		
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Agreed, and no way I'd be banding "wart like sarcoids" anyway.


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## Casey76 (22 April 2015)

Zebe - what on earth does a candida infection (unless you are talkinga bout candidiasis which is completely different to the so-called candida overgrowth syndrome/SIBO) had to to with a cutaneous fungal infection?

Faracat, had your vet identified the specific mycosis?  There are many systemic antifungals which are available for horses, and like human antifungals, they need to be continued for at least 30 days after apparent cure.


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## Meowy Catkin (22 April 2015)

Yes, they know exactly what it is as the lumps were sent for histology and they identified it. I know that my vet has spoken to several people about it, but I will ask about a systemic antifungal.


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## Zebe (22 April 2015)

Casey76 said:



			Zebe - what on earth does a candida infection (unless you are talkinga bout candidiasis which is completely different to the so-called candida overgrowth syndrome/SIBO) had to to with a cutaneous fungal infection?

Faracat only said it was fungus ie (candida)!! I have no more information on the diagnosis, i was just giving some options/thoughts that if it was relevant to her or if she had tried everything and didn't know where to turn next then maybe she could look at homopathy. ie. just trying to help!!! Lowering sugar is known to help a multitude of conditions so whats the harm in that, she's already doing that! 

Some very aggressive and angry people on this site!!
		
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## Casey76 (23 April 2015)

Zebe,  there are hundreds of different mycoses (i.e. fungi) which can colonise a body.  Candida albicans is a yeast which causes what we call "thrush" in musocal membranes.  A cutaneous fungal infection is very unlikely to be a candidal infection because the environment isn't right for candida to multiply.


Human doctors can't decide if "candida overgrowth" is an actual syndrome or even if it exists at all.


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## Zebe (23 April 2015)

That nice, so anyone who has been diagnosed with "candida overgrowth" rest assured, it could be all in your head! My medical doctor diagnosed me with psoriasis, seborrheic dermatitis and rosacea! Prescribed repeat prescriptions for lots of pills & cream and told i would possibly have it for life.  I was relieved that my homeopath diagnosed "candida overgrowth" (definitely not in my head) I am almost cured! 

A "human doctor".. depends on the human!

Faracats vet sent her away with nothing, thats quite a hopeless place to be, so i was just trying to give hope! 
Anyway good luck Faracat with whatever you choose to do. Hope it works out for you.


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## Meowy Catkin (23 April 2015)

Thanks Zebe. 

C76 - I will ask my Vet exactly which fungus it is.


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## ycbm (23 April 2015)

Casey76 said:



			Zebe - what on earth does a candida infection (unless you are talkinga bout candidiasis which is completely different to the so-called candida overgrowth syndrome/SIBO) had to to with a cutaneous fungal infection?

Faracat, had your vet identified the specific mycosis?  There are many systemic antifungals which are available for horses, and like human antifungals, they need to be continued for at least 30 days after apparent cure.
		
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Casey76 I am puzzled why Faracat's vet has removed fungal growths from her horse twice before, and not prescribed a systemic fungicide. Do you think there is any reason for that, or is it an oversight, do you reckon?  You sound like you know your fungi   I hope you don't mind me asking this Faracat.


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## Meowy Catkin (23 April 2015)

No I don't mind. I'd love it if a systemic fungicide was an option.


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## Casey76 (23 April 2015)

Hi faracat, I'm sure you've already googled, but the Merck Manual has some good information, pictures, and treatment options http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/g...infections/overview_of_fungal_infections.html

You may find that your vet will need to prescribe an antifungal off label (but drugs like itraconazole, voriconazole, terbinafine etc have been tested in horses, just not licensed).  As with all fungal infections, it is important that treatment continues for long after the apparent symptoms have disappeared, to ensure complete eradication of the infection.  Fungal infections tend to be pernicious.

Many apologies to Zebe for completely way-laying her original thread!


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## Gloi (23 April 2015)

Faracat said:



			Just got them today - it's the blasted fungus again. Much better than melanoma or a sarcoid though.
		
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Faracat, have you any pictures we could see? I'd not heard of this so I'm interested to see what it looks like.


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## Meowy Catkin (23 April 2015)

Lump one.






It's hard to see as there are still a few hairs around the lump, but they are basically small, round and protrude above the level of the skin.


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## Gloi (25 April 2015)

Thanks


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## YasandCrystal (25 April 2015)

Zebe said:



			Yasandcrystal, so great to hear a positive story and amazing you had success with toothpaste! It must have killed the root for it not to have come back! What a relief for you. I did read about toothpaste, something to do with the fluoride!?
Do you feed her the tumeric everyday all year round? Did you try anything before the toothpaste?
		
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I just used Aldi own brand toothpaste. I did give her a herbal sarcoid remedy made up by a local herbalist and then went onto the turmeric regime. I keep the mare on this all year as she also has ringbone in one fetlock. It only needs a handful of feed to give the turmeric, pepper and linseed.


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## Fun Times (26 April 2015)

This thread has turned a bit scary so i almost daren't post this for fear of getting shot down but for those of us who don't have a wealth of experience with sarcoids i thought it worth mentioning that my friends horse recently had one lasered off. It was in her armpit area and therefore getting rubbed by the girth so they went for this option. It left a horrid looking hole to start with that had to be flushed clean daily but has healed beautifully. It was done about nine months ago and so far all looks well. Now no one have a go please!


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## Zebe (26 April 2015)

Fun Times said:



			This thread has turned a bit scary so i almost daren't post this for fear of getting shot down but for those of us who don't have a wealth of experience with sarcoids i thought it worth mentioning that my friends horse recently had one lasered off.
		
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Hi Funtimes,

I know what you mean, i have resorted to Private Messaging. I think open-mindedness and empathy are the missing links with some people! There is NO one answer it is more than obvious!
Great news regarding your friends horse, thank you for your positive post.

Hi Yas, thank you for your comment, I joined the tumeric fbk page


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## fine_and_dandy (26 April 2015)

People do have empathy and are open minded from what I have read on this thread - a lot of people with lots of different experiences have given you a lot of information. It does come across a little, rightly or wrongly, that you don't wish to listen to those recommending that you listen to your vet or send an email to professor knottenbelt.

You private messaged me asking for what I can only describe as veterinary advice because things haven't gone quite as you'd hoped. I sympathise with your situation as sarcoids are a pain in the backside, but they are not something to mess with as I think you have found out. You need to know what you are messing with before trying things which may do something or nothing. 

Everyone's horses are different - some will respond in a particular way, some will get recurrences of sarcoids and some won't. At the end of the day, you have to tailor treatment to what appears to work for your horse - there may not be a one size fits all - but my first port of call would always be my vet.

I hope it sorts for you.


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## Zebe (26 April 2015)

fine and dandy - You have actually just confirmed to me that some people do NOT have empathy! You are exactly that person. I would never dream of announcing on a public thread anything that someone had sent privately  regarding a private matter. Why would you do that!! Yes reply back your opinion in a pm, but this is just beyond cruel. It's evil.

I didn't just write to you, i wrote to many others and have had some wonderful supportive advice and comments. 

Since fine and dandy has made my private matter public i will explain what i wrote:  Only 2 of the bigger nodules were slightly inflamed (before trying Thuja) and if anything appeared to be "improving!!" with Thuja 200c tablets!! which i have been giving him daily for a week. For the first time I put Thuja ointment on Yesterday and in the morning they appeared raw! 

All I was asking was the question: "is this a normal reaction with Thuja "ointment" 

A simple "yes or no" answer would have been sufficient. But Im guessing that fine and dandy has not tried "Thuja Ointment"

For those who care, the good new is that this evening they look much better!! YAY!

Fine and dandy - The lady who posted before you was worried to post, why do you think that was!! Too many strong narrow minded opinions. My pm repliers feel the same! There should be more open mindedness when dealing with something that does not have a cure. And P.S my vet is quite happy i am trying Thuja. She does not advice trying LP in the fly season!!!!!

If anyone is interested in any updates from my experiences with a horse with sarcoids please pm me because I don't wish to write on this thread anymore. 

Big thank you to all kind posters with positive & helpful advice & information. 

Zebe


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## Fun Times (26 April 2015)

Good luck Zebe, I hope you find a solution that works for your horse. Not really sure why this thread has turned so awkward, i was enjoying learning stuff about sarcoids as thankfully have never had to deal with them first hand so I would like updates please if poss.


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## fine_and_dandy (26 April 2015)

Zebe said:



			fine and dandy - You have actually just confirmed to me that some people do NOT have empathy! You are exactly that person. I would never dream of announcing on a public thread anything that someone had sent privately  regarding a private matter. Why would you do that!! Yes reply back your opinion in a pm, but this is just beyond cruel. It's evil.

I didn't just write to you, i wrote to many others and have had some wonderful supportive advice and comments. 

Since fine and dandy has made my private matter public i will explain what i wrote:  Only 2 of the bigger nodules were slightly inflamed (before trying Thuja) and if anything appeared to be "improving!!" with Thuja 200c tablets!! which i have been giving him daily for a week. For the first time I put Thuja ointment on Yesterday and in the morning they appeared raw! 

All I was asking was the question: "is this a normal reaction with Thuja "ointment" 

A simple "yes or no" answer would have been sufficient. But Im guessing that fine and dandy has not tried "Thuja Ointment"

For those who care, the good new is that this evening they look much better!! YAY!

Fine and dandy - The lady who posted before you was worried to post, why do you think that was!! Too many strong narrow minded opinions. My pm repliers feel the same! There should be more open mindedness when dealing with something that does not have a cure. And P.S my vet is quite happy i am trying Thuja. She does not advice trying LP in the fly season!!!!!

If anyone is interested in any updates from my experiences with a horse with sarcoids please pm me because I don't wish to write on this thread anymore. 

Big thank you to all kind posters with positive & helpful advice & information. 

Zebe
		
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Actually I do. You are simply displaying your narrow mindedness. And why did you pm me? Because you have done a search of the forum and know I have used thuja tablets and ointment.

I posted that you had pm'd me because frankly it is concerning that because you are afraid of hearing things you don't want to hear, you'd rather pm people who have absolutely no knowledge of your circumstances or that of your horse's, because you chose not to divulge that information. This lead me to search for where your PM had come from and found this thread.

I empathise with your situation and wishes you well. I do the same now and as I said before, given they have changed, I would seek your vet's advice. Absolutely I agree that the fly season is not a great time for LP cream - I had the very same problem. But then given how some sarcoids can change if they have any kind of treatment, as your boy's appear to have now, sometimes the preference of when to treat has to be adapted. As I said before, i sympathise with you as they are a pain in the backside.


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