# Bobby Roberts' Circus



## ladyt25 (1 April 2011)

I have just seen the bit on The One Show where they were talking to Bobby (I assume, missed the first bit) and them with Anne the elephant. I actually feel a little sorry for them and in some ways the animal rights people make me a little angry. I think they go over the top - I mean, how dare the threaten someone's life and children?

I do not agree with an elephant being in a circus or any wild animal. However, what people seem to have forgotten is this elephant has been in that circus for 50 years, that was when it was acceptable and normal for wild animals to be in a circus. It isn't easy to rehome an elephant after all. Its seems sad it has taken an incident like this for the elephant to actually be offered a home when, from the sounds of it they have tried to rehome her over the last 2 years.

I really think the protestors need more before they act. I have never seen this circus and do not know what other animals they may have that aren't domesticated. I don't have an issue with horses or dogs etc being in a circus, i don't see it as any different to a normal working life for these animals, providing they are well cared for etc.

Sorry, i am rambling - my point is it angers me how the people protesting and wanting to ruin these people's livelihoods seem to act as badly, if not worse than the abuser in the first place. An abuser whose actions it sounds like they were genuinely not aware of.

I actually hope they do come through this - I have seen circuses (with acrobatics, no animals) and I think they are great entertainment, especially for kids. I don't think we should want tolose them for good.

I was angry an upset seeing the beating of that elephant but I am glad I have seen the other side of the story.


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## xemonsus (1 April 2011)

As always there are two side to a story, im also glad we have heard the otherside of this one and that Ann will finally have somewhere safe to retire to. People have been quick to judge Bobby, however this man has grown up with Ann much the same as we do with our horses, change isnt always easy to have thrust upon us. I hope now that both 
Bobby and Ann find the peace they deserve and that the circus can continue to entertain families for years to come.


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## narkymare (1 April 2011)

Sorry but i am goign to disagree here.
Not only annie was abused - if you watch the videos the horses were too.
Now i am not an elephant expert so cant comment on annie - but im sure if someone started abusing my horse i would know about it - if they were previously well looked after and suddenly abused woudlnt their personalities change, woudlnt it be obvious to a loving carign owner soemthing was wrong?

At the end of the day the responsibility lies with the owner - he should have ensured his animals were looked after properly - and taken immediate action when it became sureley obvious they werent?

As an example - i have a shih tsu who needs regular clipping. 
I once sent him to a local clipper and my poor boy came back very distressed, nervous - woudlnt eat, hid under my bed.

I cannot proove anything but i just know he had suffered an "unpleasant" experience with this groomer - he did nto go back and with every groomer since i spelled out what happened to my boy and i did not -  want a repeat experience - ie i looked out for my lad, made sure i looked after my lad by letting people know i could tell immediateley if he had been hurt.

If this elephant had been in this mans care for 50 years, well loved and cared for - sureley he woudl noticed any distress???

Also - the shackling - on an arthritic animal - horrific - im sorry but ive no sympathy for the man at all


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## lialls (1 April 2011)

I agree with narkymare.

I didnt think that Annie look happy there and the fact that Bobby wouldn't comment on the abuse the animal had inflicked on it didnt sit well with me, he looked guily.  I also find it a bit odd that they said they had tried to find Annie a home for sometime with no luck but as soon as this was brought to the publics attention Longleat came forwards and said they would take the animal.


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## millhouse (2 April 2011)

Anne will be well cared for in her retirement at Longleat.  She is due to arrive in a few days, and the sooner the better.

Thanks to the Daily Mail for having brought her plight to the attention of the public.


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## xemonsus (2 April 2011)

Its a shame that it takes 'the attention of the public' so many times in this country for things to be sorted in cases of animal cruelty, without that and the media spin too much seems to be left to continue.
I have no doubt had this not become an issue in the papers Ann would still be at the hands of her abusers and there would be no animal parks promising her a home. I do question why this place was not offered before as surely as she was the last elephant in a circus in the country her postion would have been well known about by the RSPCA and other people who have dealings with an animal of this size including the other animal parks.
I am glad for her now,hopefully she will settle quickly into her new lifw which after so long is well over due. It just annoys me that it takes our questionable media to jump on the wagon for a problem to be such that it gets sorted so quickly.


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## Gingerwitch (2 April 2011)

What complete and utter clap trap and tosh! -tried to rehome for 2 years - why on earth then would he not sell her to the mirror whom rasied 20k a few years back to relive the poor girls suffering - why can you find pleas, pertitions and evidence that investigations into the welfare of this animal have been ongoing since at least 2007!

If he cared so much for her - why was she shown shackled to two chains in the presance of Bobby -  when now all of a sudden media attention is around,  she is in a stall the size of an aircraft hanger with more room to move and more straw than she has probably seen in her life.

Why when you look at her you get a sense of imense pity for her and you can almost taste her fear - the poor girl is so obviously frazzled by the sudden change in her circumstances and she has obviously not got a clue how to react to this kindness, she shows trepdiation when taking the treats - but her eyes tell you she is waiting for something to happen.  She is not happy and she certainly is not relxaed in this barbarians presance and i hope with all my heart that her abusers are prevented from ever seeing her again.  I am pretty sure animals react the same way to humans - they form some type of dependancy- even love to there capture - and she will neve be truly free of this fear until she does not see them, hear them or smell them.

I hope that they do have to close down and i pray that the other poor mites in there care (abuse) are taken off them.  Anyone whom has any kind of rapport with animals would know if someone was abusing them - obvious signs like head shynes, anxiety rushing, backing off from people.  And you honestly tell me that none of these signs were evident? Dont think so.


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## lialls (2 April 2011)

I didn't see anything in the news about them prosecuting the Romanian? Can someone please clarify if he has been delt with?


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## millhouse (2 April 2011)

He's done a bunk.


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## Sarah Sum1 (2 April 2011)

Ahh the old' get some sympathy off the public' act. The circus abusers do this often so it would seem. If there IS proof he and his family has been threatend, I hope those responsible are dealt with, as this is never acceptable. But this is exactly what I said would happen! Exactly! He would start raving on about animal terrorists!  

Yes, as with anything there is a percentage who take things too far, but many people who are angry at this animal abusing thug, are just ordinary Joe public who don't like seeing animals abused. 

Also if it wasn't for the animal defenders, Anne would still be living in that hell hole! But now I bet he gets a new elephant to replace her. 

BOYCOTT CIRCUSES WITH ANIMALS!!!

No sympathy for that pig whatsoever! Try and tell me he wasn't involved in abuse over the years!


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## ladyt25 (2 April 2011)

I am not saying that it is right for aan elephant to be in a circus. I didn't see the horses being abused, I didn't see the conditions they were kept in so I can't comment on that but surely, the circus has been going for years, are they not monitored at all by the likes of the RSPCA etc? Maybe I am naive and they are not. I could not tell whether anne looked distressed or unhappy on the One Show's footage as I wouldn't know what signs to look for - she seemed content enough stood with them at that time.

I think the shackles are horrid but they do seem to be quite common place where elephants are concerned - i have seen one of those zoo progs (can't recall which one) and they had the elephant shackled whilst it was giving birth. I thought that was dreadful. I assume it was to prevent her injuring the baby but I don't think it was a particularly nice thing. At the end of the day elephants shouldn't be in captivity full stop but sadly, because of us, they are.

I am very glad Anne will finally have a retirement home and no, it should not have come to this for it to happen but I don't agree with people being threatened by protestors. That just makes them as bad as those responsible in the first place.


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## Sarah Sum1 (2 April 2011)

They are not going to abuse the animals whilst the RSPCA inspectors are there are they? As long as the living conditions meet DEFRAs/RSPCA requirements, food/water/shelter etc then what can they do? They only see what the circus wants them to see.(They have security on their gates so know who is coming in) Isn't it common sense to know that an animal like and elephant who in the wild would spend days roaming on instinct, is not going to be happy chained or living in a small enclosure? (I'm not a fan of zoos either, but these animals spend days on a trailer too and in a very small enclosure) During the winter months they are enclosed inside alltogether, All in the name of entertainment, not conservation.

I the 'Great british circus' website (after they had a similar abuse incident with elephants last year, they blamed a romanian worker too)  They stated the animals are free to roam the fields when they are with the circus on the road. How can you have elephants/tigers etc roaming open fields? They were in my area and when I drove past they were clearly all in tiny metal pens. There are tons of videos on YT showing many different circuses, with animals being abused and displaying mental distress (rocking back and fourth/pacing/jumping up and down on the spot etc) The way I have seen them 'train' their animals is with violence, which I presume is quicker and safer when you're trying to force a tiger/elephant perform unatural tricks. You may think a tiger/elephant would fight back, but they do not. Honestly just search YT, many undercover videos.
Now I am not saying that ALL circuses train their animals with violence or abuse them..... But I am really only just saying that as I feel I have to, but I don;t know do I?
It is a sad, barbaric life for any animal and one which I believe should not be allowed in this day and age. 

I don't agree with the people being threatened. Nor do I agree with circuses which use animals for entertainment.


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## 1stclassalan (3 April 2011)

I go back to times when a visit to a circus was something amounting to shock and awe! No hint of cruelty then - they were after all - called "Liberty Horses" despite being goaded to canter around a small ring by a trainer with a long whip which he or she felt compelled to crack every so often. Lions and Tigers were treated the same way without the slightest complaint from the public who ooohed and ahhhed at the antics of the "Tamer" again with a big whip - the only animals that seemed to do tricks because they wanted to were Seals and Sealions. The guy who put his head under the Elephant's foot always got the best applause though I suspect some of the crowd would have liked to see him crushed!

As a child, I remember being fascinated looking at the sawdust ring left in the grass after the "big top" had gone and seeing how small it really was. The whole business looked exceedingly grubby and down at heal to me even then, with lots of shady looking foreigners smoking out the back still with smears of makeup on their faces - but I also remember how three tapeze artists risked their lives doing triple change sommersalts without a safety net to amuse me and no more than forty other children and parents.

That was as I said a very different era but the Spanish Riding School Vienna still trains Lippanzannas to capriole by some extremely doubious methods involving the animal being severely constricted between strudy fixtures. Is this O.K. because it's done in more salubrious surroundings?


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## EAST KENT (3 April 2011)

I have known circus people well,and not one of them was anything other than a concientious animal lover,can only speak as I have found. It is a wholly different concept keeping working animals on the road,not ideal to be sure, but to keep the animals well and working on view all the time must take skill.
 In the old days we were able to wander around the back after the performance at Billy Smarts and Chipperfields, the conditions were fine and comfortable for most,the cat pens were too small;elephants are routinely chained even when working in the Far East, so nothing different there.
   Circus care in Britain was always pretty good,if your livliehood is derived from your animals it makes  sense to look after them well,same as in any other livestock business.
   The people I know ,although no longer in circus,have a standard of care that puts the vast majority of us to shame.


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## EAST KENT (3 April 2011)

millhouse said:



			Anne will be well cared for in her retirement at Longleat.  She is due to arrive in a few days, and the sooner the better.

Thanks to the Daily Mail for having brought her plight to the attention of the public.
		
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Sincerely I hope she will not have to continue in solitary confinement, elephants are such family orientated animals,almost  more than any other.


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## Tinkerbee (3 April 2011)

I'm sure Bobby is a sweetheart...

I don't agree with animals in circus. BUT it should be perfectly possible to have them and treat them humanely. That elephant was abused. There was evidence. No more to say IMO. 
Plenty of circuses make money without animals.


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## skewby (3 April 2011)

OP I just cannot agree with you and have no idea where you are coming from.  Yes threatening behaviour is dreadful and low, but as far as I understand it does not come from the organisation who "outed" the circus.  I frequently despair at "animal rights" organisations and have always firmly believed they do far more harm than good.  But in this case, they did good.

I'm astonished at your OP to be honest.  Bobby Roberts is now doing the time for the crime, that is all I can see.  I still have concerns for Anne's welfare, yes she will undoubtedly be better off, but she needs other elephant company.  Otherwise our animal welfare laws are still contravened as far as I can make out.  If she's too old/infirm to make the journey, bring others to her.  But I'm sure it will be left now.  As for the other animals in the circus I am still at a loss as to why Bobby Roberts is not just prosecuted and the animals removed from him, like any council estate animal torturer.  He was ultimately responsible, he made the money from her and the other animals, he chose the staff, he paid them a pittance.  Anne meant £8k a year outlay to him.  Think on that.  As for the threats, no I don't agree, but he is reaping what he sowed and that still is nowhere near enough in my view.


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## skewby (3 April 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Sincerely I hope she will not have to continue in solitary confinement, elephants are such family orientated animals,almost  more than any other.
		
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Exactly what I was trying to say but I waffled.  Spot on.  It's STILL not right.


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## skewby (3 April 2011)

Watch this - warning to the fainthearted, it's not pretty and pulls no punches.  There are numerous such videos, just go to youtube and type in "elephant kills man".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw4ZORGREqQ

Even if you have little sympathy for the animals, you may conclude that Bobby Roberts was putting millions of human lives in danger with his actions.

I know very little about elephants, but I do know that WE can cause such reactions in them.  They are such gentle, intelligent, complex and peaceful creatures, the fact that we create these sorts of incidents should make people of this man's ilk take note.  The fact that they do not is THEIR responsibility, should anything similar happen in one of their "circuses".


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## skewby (3 April 2011)

ladyt25 said:



			I really think the protestors need more before they act.
		
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What more, exactly, do you want?  This "organisation" clearly knew enough to plant the hidden camera.  Well done them I say.

Sorry to go on but you have royally chuffed me off, and that is not easy to do.  What is your point, exactly?


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## bwpre (3 April 2011)

We could talk about this for ever but i think we need to remember that she has been in this circus for ''50 years'',its all well and good to call out ''set her free'' (for people who believe free willie was a documentary) for her now to go to longleat will be a massive massive change that might not be so good for her, elephants live typically 50 to 70 years so she might have 20 years at longleat or maybe 6 months who knows, in my experience dramatic changes like this more often than not kill the animal. I absolutely agree and am thrilled that she will go to longleat, but i wont be getting on my high horse about it because that circus has been her entire life and tho clearly it is a hard life, life is hard. Im no elephant psychologist but think how you would feel being taken from everything you've ever known. i don't disagree with domestic animals in circus but i do disagree with exotics! I've seen elephants and lions and i really do not think they belong in shows. i'm sure there are exceptions, but not in any show i have seen. saying that i have seen elephants in zoos who have looked even more miserable and have exhibited worse stress behavior than the circus animals i've seen. its a double edged sword!


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## skewby (3 April 2011)

bwpre said:



			that circus has been her entire life and tho clearly it is a hard life, life is hard. Im no elephant psychologist but think how you would feel being taken from everything you've ever known.
		
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If everything I'd ever known had been violence, I'd be quite chuffed.

Yes life is hard, should it involve a daily beating though?  Are you saying, leave her where she is?

Have you watched the video?


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## Sarah Sum1 (3 April 2011)

Yeah coz domestic pets have it so easy in circuses! They don't suffer at all! 

Research into it, there are undercover videos of dogs being beaten at circuses! 

 ANY animal in a circus is wrong. 

I agree that the change will be very hard for Anne. But at least she has a chance of happiness.


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## bwpre (3 April 2011)

Not at all, i'm saying, don't make a vendetta out of something you don't understand. FYI elephants don't think like people! she wont think oh thank god you came and rescued me, she will see everything she has ever known and then she will see something completely alien to her "which is scary''!

also whilst on the point, people seem to have absolutely no apprehension when smacking there horse on the nose or using a whip on the flanks (Personally i never under any circumstances use any force whatsoever! JSYK), An elephants skin is an inch thick so an ankus has the same level of severity as your index finger on your horses nose, if i came into your yard and said you have been cruel to your horse for the last 50 years you would probably find it hard to accept that.

My most blunt point is that if you yourself have never come into contact with an elephant it afflict me that you feel you are apt to debate the topic!
yes you saw a video! this elephants life is 50 years long! how long was the video!
Dont get me wrong i think any amount of cruelty is awful and must be stopped, but taring with your brush would have me boxing up and 'rescuing' a lot of horses!


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## sleepingdragon10 (3 April 2011)

ladyt25 said:



			I really think the protestors need more before they act.
		
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Need more what?
The evidence speaks for itself love, and if 1 animal in that circus is being abused, you can put money on the rest of the inmates being treated the same, if not worse.

You cannot defend the indefensable, IMHO.


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## Sarah Sum1 (3 April 2011)

Sorry, but disagree hugely. You don't know what I or others 'understand' you don't know what I have researched or who I have contacted regarding circus animals.

But each to their own.


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## abaddon_1974 (3 April 2011)

Slightly off topic, but some of the protesters they have interviewed want to ban the keeping of all animals in captivity.
This of course would involve horses, cats, dogs and even goldfish.
I can't agree with the keeping of animals in circus conditions, but there are also a lot of horses stabled most of the time and driven from venue to venue in the competition season, not that different a life to a lot of circus animals.


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## EAST KENT (4 April 2011)

Although the elephant`s conditions are inadequate I do believe that moving her at a great age ,out of her known surroundings and routine ,will shock her enough to kill her.
  Bear in mind that the process of "taming" any young elephant from the wild for work in the Far East is violent ,brutal and takes a long time. It is "breaking" in every sense of the word.Remarkable that such a capable huge beast for the most part prefers to submit rather than kill us.
  Really they should be left entirely alone to continue their peaceful and complicated family life.
  The people I have known would not have used brutality in training their animals ,in fact they are all vehement vegetarians and respect and treasure their horses/dogs etc much more than anyone I have come accross. It is unfair to base your opinion of circus people on the actions of an itinerent foreign worker. I have employed workers in my kennels who unknown to me had been less than kind,one I found out about when the dog bit him ..and now loathes all men in boots,and the other by a bitch`s attitude after The girl had left.Niether of them were outwardly rough,but obviously had been,dogs don`t lie.


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## millhouse (4 April 2011)

Anne has completed her first 24 hours at Longleat.  Here's wishing her a long and happy retirement where she will be well cared for and loved.


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## rosy (4 April 2011)

1stclassalan said:



			That was as I said a very different era but the Spanish Riding School Vienna still trains Lippanzannas to capriole by some extremely doubious methods involving the animal being severely constricted between strudy fixtures. Is this O.K. because it's done in more salubrious surroundings?
		
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I didn't realise this. It doesn't excuse it, really, does it?

Is it me, or is there more animal cruelty about just lately? Or is it that we're just more aware of it all?


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## Tinkerbee (4 April 2011)

bwpre said:



			Not at all, i'm saying, don't make a vendetta out of something you don't understand. FYI elephants don't think like people! she wont think oh thank god you came and rescued me, she will see everything she has ever known and then she will see something completely alien to her "which is scary''!

also whilst on the point, people seem to have absolutely no apprehension when smacking there horse on the nose or using a whip on the flanks (Personally i never under any circumstances use any force whatsoever! JSYK), An elephants skin is an inch thick so an ankus has the same level of severity as your index finger on your horses nose, if i came into your yard and said you have been cruel to your horse for the last 50 years you would probably find it hard to accept that.

My most blunt point is that if you yourself have never come into contact with an elephant it afflict me that you feel you are apt to debate the topic!
yes you saw a video! this elephants life is 50 years long! how long was the video!
Dont get me wrong i think any amount of cruelty is awful and must be stopped, but taring with your brush would have me boxing up and 'rescuing' a lot of horses!
		
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I think there is a bit of difference between a mahout controlling an elephant for the safety of everyone, and what goes on behind the scenes in some circuses/other establishments.

When I first came across elephant handling I was 7 and thought it "cruel", although I was quickly educated. I loved watching the mahouts with their elephants, how one tiny man can control such a large animal was beyond me.  However, I was appalled by what I saw happening to this specific elephant (Anne) and it went beyond reasonable force IMO.

Elephants (asian, don't fancy those peoples chances with an African elepgant!  ) have always reminded me a bit of horses in the way they will work with humans, and put up with the rubbish we throw at them, but there are limits.


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## ester (4 April 2011)

As a bit of an aside but I think of interest to the discussion is at what point does an animal become domesticated instead of wild?

Elephants have been utilised for a very long time, a quick google search suggest their use 4000 years ago. But that they are generally still taken from the wild because of the economic issues of breeding in captivity.


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## ladyt25 (4 April 2011)

Well, I apologise Skewby if i have "chuffed you off". My point was that people see a video clip of such things - and I am in no way condoning any animal being hit or abused in any way - but come people then feel it is their right to threaten other people's lives. I don't agree with that and in my mind makes them no better than the abuser themselves. Also I think Bobby and his wife/partner at least faced up to what had happened to some degree. They didn't have to I am sure.

No, i don't think circuses these days should have animals in but 50 years ago it was the norm. I sincerely hope Anne can have some comfortable years of retirement ahead and I am sure the staff at longleat will do their best to make the transition as easy as possible as i would be concerned the major change could cause her a lot of stress.

At every horse competition i go to i see 'cruelty' when people belt their horses with whips, smack them across the faces etc etc. Plus, many top level competition horses are kept in a 12 x 12 'prison' for the majority of their lives, only to be taken out and to be forced to work and strain in unnatural positions in the name of elegance. they are also fed high energy feeds but then doped as they are deemed too hot to handle otherwise.

Is that treatment any less cruel?

My point is, although i do not disagree that the abuse this elephant suffered was horrible and maybe we only saw a small part of it - what would we see if these same animal rights people put cameras up and secretly filmed horse yards instead. There are low lifes everywhere who abuse animals, not just in cicuses


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## skewby (4 April 2011)

ladyt25 said:



			Well, I apologise Skewby if i have "chuffed you off". My point was that people see a video clip of such things - and I am in no way condoning any animal being hit or abused in any way - but come people then feel it is their right to threaten other people's lives. I don't agree with that and in my mind makes them no better than the abuser themselves.
		
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Yes absolutely, but as you say, this was SOME people.  A minority, and at the end of the day, a result of Bobby Roberts' actions.  No, not right, and shouldn't remove focus from what actually happened.  But I don't have an awful lot of sympathy either really.



ladyt25 said:



			Also I think Bobby and his wife/partner at least faced up to what had happened to some degree. They didn't have to I am sure.
		
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Yes they did!  They were going to be prosecuted otherwise.  In some ways although it's wonderful Anne has been rehomed, I am concerned it lets the circus off the hook now, and what about all the other animals there, who were seen being abused in the footage too?



ladyt25 said:



			My point is, although i do not disagree that the abuse this elephant suffered was horrible and maybe we only saw a small part of it - what would we see if these same animal rights people put cameras up and secretly filmed horse yards instead. There are low lifes everywhere who abuse animals, not just in cicuses
		
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Who said it was just circuses?  Again, I don't really get your point.  Does the fact that cruelty is everywhere make it ok?  None of it is ok.  One animal has been freed from it, that's terrific.  That's all anyone is saying.


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## skewby (4 April 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Bear in mind that the process of "taming" any young elephant from the wild for work in the Far East is violent ,brutal and takes a long time. It is "breaking" in every sense of the word.
		
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I did not know that


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## lily1 (5 April 2011)

Thankfully Anne is on her way (probably there by now) to a new home which she totally deserves.
Its pitiful to watch the footage on her being beaten I just wonder what has happened to the cretin that was supposidly looking after her?? why get a job working with animals if you dont really like them. He's probably fled back to his country of origin and disappeared.
But then this isnt the first circus to abuse animals, Chipperfields were done for cruelty with their chimps ending up at Monkey World.


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## millhouse (5 April 2011)

Check out the pictures of Anne enjoying her new surroundings in the Mail today.  I think it goes to show it was all worthwhile giving her a new start in life.


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## viewfromahill (5 April 2011)

Well lets hope that the animal rights activists dont target livery yards/riding schools/competition centres........because the ONLY reason the circus's are being slated is that these activists target them, agreed its not right to beat an animal for no reason, but there are ways of dealing with serious issues the same as there are for child abuse for example, they dont NEED to put it on youtube..... so all of you so quick to criticise circuses per se (sic) as my opening comment, dont smack your horse, hit it with that nice sparkly whip, kick it, tell it off, shout at it because there just might be someone with a hidden camera watching!!!


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## Sarah Sum1 (5 April 2011)

viewfromahill said:



			Well lets hope that the animal rights activists dont target livery yards/riding schools/competition centres........because the ONLY reason the circus's are being slated is that these activists target them, agreed its not right to beat an animal for no reason, but there are ways of dealing with serious issues the same as there are for child abuse for example, they dont NEED to put it on youtube..... so all of you so quick to criticise circuses per se (sic) as my opening comment, dont smack your horse, hit it with that nice sparkly whip, kick it, tell it off, shout at it because there just might be someone with a hidden camera watching!!!
		
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If they didn't post the videos then ordinary Joe public wouldn't know what horrendus abuse goes on would they?! I'm not an animal rights activist, but I have studied into and researched circus animals, and it makes my blood boil! I also don't agree with violence towards animals full stop, not just in circuses. There is a huge number of people now who want animals in circuses banned, they probably would be none the wiser if these horrific videos weren't posted, so I for one am glad they post them! It is evidence!

You're right, you never know who is watching so treat animals with respect they deserve.

Also do you not think there are people who target child abusers! More so than circus animal abusers! There will always be some people who target those who abuse.


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## EAST KENT (5 April 2011)

viewfromahill said:



			Well lets hope that the animal rights activists dont target livery yards/riding schools/competition centres........because the ONLY reason the circus's are being slated is that these activists target them, agreed its not right to beat an animal for no reason, but there are ways of dealing with serious issues the same as there are for child abuse for example, they dont NEED to put it on youtube..... so all of you so quick to criticise circuses per se (sic) as my opening comment, dont smack your horse, hit it with that nice sparkly whip, kick it, tell it off, shout at it because there just might be someone with a hidden camera watching!!!
		
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Indeed you have a point there,even the most innocent action could be made to appear terrible by these people. Bobby Roberts had NO IDEA  that the worker was abusing Anne,the guilty party has scarpered.Speak as I have found ,circus people put most of us to shame with their animal care,and cannot be blamed for a casual workers acts.
  Anne ,however looks to be enjoying her new life,albeit still roped fore and aft for hosing down,so some things have`nt changed.


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## Sarah Sum1 (5 April 2011)

How do you know he had no idea? Because he say's so? 

The amount of abuse videos I have watched and you tell me that all circus people love animals! I think not. 

Anne has to be tied with the ropes as she could be unpredictable due to years if abuse by circus abuse freaks. Hardly the same as the chains spent her days in.

Defend him all you like, but the evidence is there!! for ALL to see. End of. 

BOYCOTT CIRCUSES WITH ANIMALS!!!!


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## Sarah Sum1 (5 April 2011)

Not to mention those who have worked in animal circuses and who have left because of the abuse, I guess they are lying?


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## EAST KENT (5 April 2011)

And how many circus people do you personally know??


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## Sarah Sum1 (5 April 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			And how many circus people do you personally know??
		
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Thankfully none. BUT I have read articles written by ex circus workers and I have SEEN! the undercover footage of many many different circuses abusing their animals. Ok I can't say all do, but from what I have SEEN many do.


Defend them all you like, I will have to agree to disagree, and continue to show the footage to those who can see for themselves what goes on, and not take the word of a circus worker who is extremely unlikely to admit what goes on. UNTIL they are caught out.

Agree to disagree I think.

ACtually I know one circus worker who did juggling in our shop. But he said he wouldn't work in a circus with animals. Only in a circus with people, which I think in this day and age is all we need.


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## hayinamanger (5 April 2011)

I didn't see the Roberts on The One Show, did Matt Baker ask them how did they sleep at night?

After seeing that video of the abuse of Anne, I certainly couldn't sleep.

The Romanian who dealt out the daily punishment deserves a similar fate but he will probably never be caught..he has to meet his maker one day though.

The Roberts were ultimately responsible for the welfare of their animals, they failed Anne miserably.


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## xemonsus (5 April 2011)

I have to side with Eastkent on this, people are talking as if they know these people first hand. Funny how attitudes towards people and the reports in papers like the dailymail differ depending where on this forum you read! One min they cant report facts right and talk shi*te when talking about 'country sports' and issues, next min theyve got every thing right and we should all be leading a mob to Mr Roberts door.
I for one cant stand cruelty to animals in any form i find what happened to Anne utterly terrible however i also see horses locked away in a stable all day etc just as wrong however is a livery owner whos groom whacks a horse for no reason to be hounded the same? Im sure these things happen on a daily basis but ive not seen the outrage that has been shown for Anne.
Interesting isnt it that Anne is the oldest elephant in europe and also interesting that i was a Twycross zoo recently watching the keepers there treating one of their elephants who was also shackled in a pen.


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## xemonsus (5 April 2011)

Just to add, i dont always think that the word of ex workers are always proof of someones wrong doings, how many times have you heard of people with an axe to grind over an ex boss??
i do agree tho that Mr Rooberts has most likely failed Anne in his duty toward her. Glad now tho that she will hopefully be able to live out her days in peace and yes those that do abuse do one day have to meet their maker! No better justice in my view!


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## Sarah Sum1 (5 April 2011)

People have different opinions and that is fine. I will agree to disagree. No point in keep repeating myself. 

I feel passionately about this subject. But that's not to say others don't too. I appreciate that.


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## 1stclassalan (5 April 2011)

I posted earlier that my first impressions of a circus had been that it looked down at heel - and that was through the eyes of a child - it was probably much worse. Here is the rub - people in low paid jobs are generally not the most inteligent - couple this with the fact that the path to a circus for many of them has probably had many ugly turns - you then have a recipe for turning out unfeeling, resentful people down in life's dumps - you ain't going to find many of them tree hugging or soul sharing with animals. I think the job actually attracts low life animal abusers rather than lovers and this type will always take the shortest cut to earning their crust and if that involves cruelty so what!

Now the top circus folk have cleaned up their act of late and put on Horsey extravaganza without other animals - better - but I wouldn't leave many of them in charge of a dead cat.


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## Over2You (5 April 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Indeed you have a point there,even the most innocent action could be made to appear terrible by these people. *Bobby Roberts had NO IDEA  that the worker was abusing Anne*,the guilty party has scarpered.Speak as I have found ,circus people put most of us to shame with their animal care,and cannot be blamed for a casual workers acts.
  Anne ,however looks to be enjoying her new life,albeit still roped fore and aft for hosing down,so some things have`nt changed.
		
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Absolute garbage! This video clearly shows that the piece of scum knew all about the abuse!!

Thank goodness Anne's in a better place. It's a shame the same can't be said about the rest of the animals.


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## xemonsus (5 April 2011)

Sorry but i find your reply utter crap 1stclassalan, i have personel first hand knowledge of many traveling circus/ showmen and the people i have met have mostly had higher moral standings than many of the 'normal' folk i grew up with. Yes there are good and bad in every walk of life but i also know many people who have shunned a normal life to travel the world in a low paid job for the love of what they do and their animals and children are better cared for than most i have met else where, at the end of the day their lively hoods depend on them. Scum who abuse dont have to just come from a hard lifestyle!
There will always be the bad in every walk of life but we should all be careful of taring people with the same brush, and target the abusers not the people around them.

Sarahsum1 i get what you are saying i too believe in things but hate to see groups of people being tarred because of a few peoples actions. Im not disagreeing with everything you have said but on some points yes i think we will have to disagree....on this one!


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## friesian80 (5 April 2011)

I watched the interview with Mr and Mrs Roberts on the One Show and one thing Mr Roberts said didnt sit well with me, it was something along these lines

"All we were trying to do was entertain the public, whats so wrong with that?"

I feel in todays society we are now more in touch with the fact exotic animals are not put on this earth to entertain humans, times have changed and animals natural behaviour is more important to us.

I say lets leave human to entertain human, it can be done so why bring in exotic animals who clearly were not designed to soley 'make us laugh'.


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## EAST KENT (5 April 2011)

But then ..what about horses?They evolved to wander 24 hours grazing etc ..and for our amusement,and other`s entertainment, we coup them up 23 hours a day ,make them do ridiculous dressage for a half hour or so ..and then coup them up again.Is that right?
  Humans use animals ,fact,circus animals have to be kept looking good,that is good business. If you want to see a circus family born trainer watch Tanya Larrigan,her horses and her parents horses want for nothing,they used to work for Chipperfields. They came out of circus to allow their daughter a settled education..oh and to home one of Marion`s High School stallions,which sadly they never traced.
  Never met anyone who has concentrated on keeping horses comfortable and in great form as much as that family.I do not believe they are that exceptional among circus folk. 
  Do not judge them all on ONE casual worker.And next time you say "get over" and smack your horse on it`s bottom..think how that could be construed on film.


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## Sarah Sum1 (5 April 2011)

It's not just one though, there are several undercover videos of circus animal abuse. 

 Please don't think it's an isolated case, I could put up another ten or more undercover footage videos like it, all in different circuses (ones in this country too, Great british circus, ringling brothers etc) but I know you won't watch them. 

Anyway, as previously said I agree to disagree. I appreciate other people may have different opinions.

ETA Chipperfields had abused monkeys in their care which were taken to a monkey sanctuary.


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## skewby (5 April 2011)

ladyt25 said:



			I am not saying that it is right for aan elephant to be in a circus. I didn't see the horses being abused, I didn't see the conditions they were kept in
		
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So why don't you watch the freely available video showing it all clearly, that started all this off?

Or did you just watch the The One Show episode?

Would you like a link?


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## skewby (5 April 2011)

1stclassalan said:



			That was as I said a very different era but the Spanish Riding School Vienna still trains Lippanzannas to capriole by some extremely doubious methods involving the animal being severely constricted between strudy fixtures. Is this O.K. because it's done in more salubrious surroundings?
		
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I am terribly shocked at this claim, have read up a lot on the Spanish Riding School and have tickets to see them this winter.  If this is true I definitely need to know more details?

And it's Lipizzaner, would never normally pick up on spelling but as you are making such a big accusation, I expected you to get the spelling right.  If you've really looked into something, and know fundamental facts about it, it would be so familiar to you, that its correct spelling would come naturally.


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## skewby (5 April 2011)

Sarah sum1 said:



			Please don't think it's an isolated case, I could put up another ten or more undercover footage videos like it, all in different circuses (ones in this country too, Great british circus, ringling brothers etc) but I know you won't watch them.
		
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Why wouldn't we watch them?


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## Sarah Sum1 (5 April 2011)

skewby said:



			Why wouldn't we watch them?
		
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Ok

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bta6UxBX6xM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2KE...ry=ringling+brother+abuse&aq=f&has_verified=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4NNiWbfB38 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-xwKJgL534

Ok a few there, but all you need to do is google circus cruelty etc and it's all there.

ETA Just a few off you tube, but if you google you will fond more. This is the last time i'm posting on this thread as it's getting me down. This and my dad is not putting my head in a good place. I repsect others opinions and all I can say is research into it a bit. I appreciate that I can;t say all circuses treat their animals in that way, But the evidence I have seen is enough to think they should be banned. 

Over and out


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## thinlizzy (6 April 2011)

how sad those videos were ( but not seen bobby roberts ones but have been stables with his brothers horses the palominos for a few month over winter while they were doing a theatre and i can 100 per cent vouch those palomoinos were treated like gods waited on hand and foot and watched over like precious jewels immaculate fed groomed and watered and loved happy horses i used to walk past one and he used to kiss your ear or grab your coat gently of his own accord they kept there part of the yard spick and span i dropped a top off a pen one day and was handed it back the next lol did i feel bad !I was shocked by high standard of care i was nt expecting it but was impressed my horse learnt to bow with no aids or physical just a carrot and kindness from them i never jeard a raised voice once only  to staff now and again


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## friesian80 (6 April 2011)

Ive read through this thread and the thing that confuses me is why some ppl are not making the distinguishion between domesticated animals and exotic animals.

For those who are comparing keeping an elephant/tiger to a horse/dog please remember these type of animals are very different, its been proven that domesticated animals do well living under the care of humans however for animals such as elephants, bears and tigers (just 3 exotics ive used as example of what may be used in a circus) they thrive and live much better in their own habitat away from human.

Please note im not speaking about breeding plans or sanctuaries here, im speaking about using animals for pleasure of the human.


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## TallyHo123 (6 April 2011)

narkymare said:



			Sorry but i am goign to disagree here.
Not only annie was abused - if you watch the videos the horses were too.
Now i am not an elephant expert so cant comment on annie - but im sure if someone started abusing my horse i would know about it - if they were previously well looked after and suddenly abused woudlnt their personalities change, woudlnt it be obvious to a loving carign owner soemthing was wrong?

At the end of the day the responsibility lies with the owner - he should have ensured his animals were looked after properly - and taken immediate action when it became sureley obvious they werent?

As an example - i have a shih tsu who needs regular clipping. 
I once sent him to a local clipper and my poor boy came back very distressed, nervous - woudlnt eat, hid under my bed.

I cannot proove anything but i just know he had suffered an "unpleasant" experience with this groomer - he did nto go back and with every groomer since i spelled out what happened to my boy and i did not -  want a repeat experience - ie i looked out for my lad, made sure i looked after my lad by letting people know i could tell immediateley if he had been hurt.

If this elephant had been in this mans care for 50 years, well loved and cared for - sureley he woudl noticed any distress???

Also - the shackling - on an arthritic animal - horrific - im sorry but ive no sympathy for the man at all
		
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I agree with everything said here. Well put!


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## ester (6 April 2011)

skewby I can only find an arab video but I think this will show you the sort of thing the other poster was on about. The use of 'pillars'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-0dBjaOATA&feature=related


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## millhouse (6 April 2011)

There are more lovely photos of Anne enjoying her new home in the Mail today.  She has settled very quickly.


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## BBP (11 April 2011)

I saw Anne at Longleat on Saturday, enjoying the sun on her back, chucking sand around and getting thoroughly spoilt.  Poor girl is very arthritic, but at least she gets a nice retirement.


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## millhouse (11 April 2011)

Yes it is great to know she is being so well cared for now.  They've raised a lot of money towards the new sanctuary, so hopefully that will go ahead.


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## 1stclassalan (15 April 2011)

skewby said:



			I am terribly shocked at this claim, have read up a lot on the Spanish Riding School and have tickets to see them this winter.  If this is true I definitely need to know more details?
		
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Don't take my post as a claim - I think the Spanish School freely admit their training methods and at certain times allow folk in to watch. It is by no means torture but in these sensitve days I wonder someone hasn't brought it up before.




			And it's Lipizzaner, would never normally pick up on spelling but as you are making such a big accusation, I expected you to get the spelling right.  If you've really looked into something, and know fundamental facts about it, it would be so familiar to you, that its correct spelling would come naturally.
		
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I accept your pedantic correction - kindly put my over ethusiastic use of the alphabet down to working very long hours. However; I find your rejoinder that my argument is somewhat diminished because it's badly spelt ridiculous - or even rickydoodlous. I'm very fond of the quotations of Dr Johnson - he has one suitable to use here :- "one does not need to be a good carpenter to appreciate whether a table is fit to be used as a table."
Thus, I think you'll find that my arguement stands on it's own legs.


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## 1stclassalan (15 April 2011)

xemonsus said:



			Sorry but i find your reply utter crap 1stclassalan,
		
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If you are so opposed to my point of view - why the need to apologise?




			i have personel first hand knowledge of many traveling circus/ showmen and the people i have met have......... mostly had............higher moral standings than many of the 'normal' folk i grew up with.
		
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So I may deduce from that "mostly had" - that you also have first hand experience of lesser moral standards too? Your own moral standards are not enhanced by trying to defend an outmoded form of entertainment.

My post doesn't blacken everyone in circus - it merely suggest that the worst elements of society are drawn to it.


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## ladyt25 (15 April 2011)

Ok I haven't visited this thread for while but just noticed it had been re-posted on and noted Skewby's comments as to whether I wanted to watch the videos of abuse that could be seen. Quite frankly no, not really - I personally don't spend all my live long day on the internet or trawling youtube looking for horrible videos of people abusing animals (whether in a circus or not). I work full time, I have horses as a hobby and, on an evening i come on here and see what people are up to. i watch the one show as that is what time I get in if not riidng and this is the who i saw the interview on and hence the start of this thread!

The reason for the thread was really not to dispute the cruelty that went on when ONE person was seen to abuse this elephant, the point was I was amazed how quickly people jumped on a band wagon and felt they could start threatening other people based on something they had been shown on TV without having even heard the other side of the story THAT was the point!!! It's not like the circus is new for gods sake, it's been around for over half a century yet it takes one clip like this to make people get angry and decide circuses are cruel!

I don't dispute the animal was mistreated in THAT clip shown but I am not in a position to say she was abused every day of her life for 50 odd years. In fact I very much doubt that to be honest. The point is, times have changed, over 5 years ago it was normal for exotic animals to be in circuses, these days it is not seen as acceptable but to these circus people if was a way of life. Whether that's right or wrong - who decides? I don't necessarily agree with animals being in zoos but they are.

As for the mention of other acts of cruelty in circuses and the like, i am wondering what we would see if we set up a video camera on a yard of horses - a normal yard, not even a competition one - would be interesting to see how many horses are whacked and shouted at on a daily basis. Is this any different to abusing an elephant in a circus??

I am not going to waste more of my friday evening on this thread (I shall get back to my wine) I will say though I saw the clip of Annie tonight on, again, The One Show. Showed her enjoying herself at Longleat and funnily the head keeper said what good condition she was in when she arrived and stated how "He (Bobbi) mus have been doing something right". I found that interesting as, in my mind a distressed, abused animal would not be in a good state. Bobbi and his wife also were there to visit her and she certainly didn't seem 'upset' that they were they.

Anyway, that's my last 10pence worth on this matter. Maybe I am just someone who prefers to give people the benefit of the doubt, who knows.


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## EAST KENT (16 April 2011)

Indeed she was completely relaxed and responsive to the Roberts.


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## millhouse (16 April 2011)

A lot of money has been raised for the Elephant Sanctuary intended for Longleat, but they still need a considerable amount more to reach the target.


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