# Responsible breeding??



## Simsar (16 May 2012)

After recent discussions on here, I would like to ask what each individual forum user feels is 'Responsible breeding'?

How many off you evaluate your youngstock to the point of culling(PTS) those that do not come up to scratch?

What do you look for in your mares?

"      "       "   "     "   "    "    Stallions?

(Healthy debate only, lets not descend into mayhem again!)

Simon


----------



## The_snoopster (16 May 2012)

I have only ever bred once off my family cob mare, before she went to stud I had my equine vet out to evaluate her he pointed out a few confo things and what type of stallion to use as he knew what type of youngster I was looking for.
If he had said not to breed because of something seriously wrong I would not have gone ahead, next I had her checked by a fertility vet as she was an older mare however not a maiden when I was given the go ahead on that this is when I looked at different stallions.
I found one I liked, and went to pay a visit to the stud and liked what I saw in the flesh. Who I must say were fantastic, when I dropped my mare off the owner pulled me to one side and recommended I did not use the stallion I chose as he said he thought another one of his stallions would produce a better foal than the one I originally liked. He did also say he knew of another stud yard with a similar stallion who produced colour (which is what I wanted).
I actually listened to what he said, the problem with using the first stallion was he thought because my mare was long backed I should use the other stallion to try and avoid it in the resulting foal also. So because I wanted to take all the advice I could I did use his other stallion, as I liked the yard and how they treated their visiting mares and how they explained everything to me clearly
Most of the over breeding I see are the "coloured cob" breeders who seem to be churning them out at an alarming rate and they are mostly going for meat around here. Also lots of the hill ponies are ending up in dire straights due to the breeders believing because they have dont it for years it gives them a god given right to continue even if the foals are selling for a few pounds at sales.
As for pts my youngster if she was not up to scratch I would only do this if the problem was a painful condition. I only have one youngster and can afford for her to be a field ornament if thats all she was good for. However she is not and will hopefully lead a full and usefull life with me as our next family horse, I hope I was responsible when I bred from my mare as all my horses stay for life.


----------



## Biscuit (16 May 2012)

My mare was retired due to an injury as a youngster. She is now on broodmare loan with a forum member, and I hope to breed from her myself in the future. Although she is not a proven mare or graded, I would breed from her due to the following:

1) her pedigree is excellent and she is fully registered
2) she has good conformation and movement
3) I like her personality, she is a trainable type and very athletic, even if not proven in competition
4) she has not had any other injuries or illnesses than mechanical lameness due to a kick in the field
5) she is my pet and I'd want to breed from her to keep for myself


----------



## Simsar (16 May 2012)

Thanks Snoop

I had better put my 2 pennies worth in too

Mares. 
Of the 6 mares I have all bar one are proven broodmares. 
4 are graded the other two will be soon.
4 are ex comp mares the other 2 were injured young but show good attributes
5 have full pedigrees, 1 is missing the tail femail but she has competed to the highest level of all my mares.
All have good conformation and movement and a sane and trainable temprament.
I personally feel that they are what I want to be breeding and all (bar the maiden) have shown that they consistently throw better than themselves. 

Stallions.
Pedigree, conformation, temp, competition record or good youngstock results and most importantly suitability to the mare.

Y/S assessment
I will not sell a foal that I would not be happy to own myself and have and will PTS rather than sell as I would rather know there fate and keep a good reputation (responsible breeding IMHO).

Simon


----------



## Reindeer Rider (16 May 2012)

I have bred once from my riding club type horse.  I decided I wanted her foal and she was good enough to breed from.  (I am 44 and have owned my own horses for over 30 years)

But, she is possibly the type of mare I would be slated on here for breeding from.  I didn't want to buy a foal as I wanted the emotional bond from my much loved mare and her new baby. 

However, I took advice, from instructors and breeders and noticed that often the advice was biased towards breeding the sort of horse that 'they' would like.  So I thought long and hard about my perfect horse and chose a stallion that had proven offspring.  I.e. they pass on their talents, have very trainable temperaments and, for me, are not too tall.  

My mare took first time at AI and foaled no problem and produced a very confident friendly little filly that I am totally in love with.  She is now a yearling but I would think by the time she is 3 or 4 she will have cost me £6k , totally worth it to me. 

Was that responsible breeding? I think so, because I am prepared to be totally responsible for that foal for the rest of her life. 

There are undoubtably extremely 'well bred' mares that are having foals because they are too difficult/tempermental/lame to ride -  Worth too much on paper to put down, producing foals for sale. 

Just as there are fields of cobby types reproducing without thought as to what happens to the offspring.


----------



## misst (16 May 2012)

As a lurker on this section and never having bred (or seek to do so) I find the idea that someone would consider (and actually) PTS both startling and reassuring. 
It is actually very nice to know that there are people out there who look to sell seriously nice stock and that they don't look to palm them off on numptys like me. I had never even thought that putting poor stock to sleep might happen though once pointed out it does seem obvious. 
It must be heartbreaking to breed something and have all those hopes dashed, and then to make such a tough decision. I don't think I could do it but it is oddly reassuring to know someone is, and I guess you aren't the only one Simsar. At what age do you "know" something is not good enough/"right"?


----------



## Simsar (16 May 2012)

Misst
I actually started this post partly because I have just had a colt PTS today, who on paper should have been amazing but in reality wasn't and as I have said I want to know his fate and not that he is being passed from pillar to post also I personally wouldn't want him to have been a horse associated with my name (this sounds harsh but I believe reputation means alot in the horse world).


At what age do you "know" something is not good enough/"right"? 

Well with this youngster he had OK conformation, good movement, a nice temp but seemed very short on brain cells and something just said to me from day one that he might not be good enough, I gave him a year to mature a bit and see how he grew (physically and mentally) and to tell you the truth not a lot had changed apart from he had got bigger!! So the descision was made, like you say it is not a nice descision to make and it is heartbreaking when you think about it but that is horse breeding and sometimes things just don't go the way you plan them.

Thanks, I am glad it is reasuring to some people.

Simon


----------



## misst (16 May 2012)

That is really interesting Simon- that is why I lurk on here! I am sorry about your colt it must be very disappointing and upsetting. I honestly meant it when I said that it is reassuring, thank you for your honesty as people like me have no idea otherwise what breeding really entails.


----------



## Allover (16 May 2012)

Simsar said:



			Misst
I actually started this post partly because I have just had a colt PTS today, who on paper should have been amazing but in reality wasn't and as I have said I want to know his fate and not that he is being passed from pillar to post also I personally wouldn't want him to have been a horse associated with my name (this sounds harsh but I believe reputation means alot in the horse world).


At what age do you "know" something is not good enough/"right"? 

Well with this youngster he had OK conformation, good movement, a nice temp but seemed very short on brain cells and something just said to me from day one that he might not be good enough, I gave him a year to mature a bit and see how he grew (physically and mentally) and to tell you the truth not a lot had changed apart from he had got bigger!! So the descision was made, like you say it is not a nice descision to make and it is heartbreaking when you think about it but that is horse breeding and sometimes things just don't go the way you plan them.

Thanks, I am glad it is reasuring to some people.

Simon
		
Click to expand...

What would he have not been good enough for? 

If he had, as you say, OK conformation, nice temp and good movement but a little "short of braincells" then a few more years to mature in the paddock may have been all he needed to be up to the standard of being a decent horse who could have had a long and fullfilling life. (Unless of course you were under the impression he was actually mentally compromised and a danger to himself and others around him IYKWIM)

I am presuming here that you are a breeder of quality sports horses, do you follow the lives of all your offspring to make sure that they are being well cared for and not passed from pillar to post and are you prepared to take them back if needs be? 

I may be wrong here but your decision to PTS was down to financial reasons alone, you did not want that your reputation be "tarred" from having not bred a "star" horse and did not have the financial commitment to him to see him through for a couple of years to "see what happened".

IMO your decision to PTS of this colt is in no way comparable to the "culling" of hill ponies and the like who are being shoved through meat markets and exported to god knows where to meet god knows what fate.


----------



## Simsar (16 May 2012)

I try to be up front an honest about all our breeding, including our failures. It costs so much that you can't throw good money after bad. In the last year alone I have had to let 4 mares and now this colt go as they just wern't what I want to breed or producing what I want to breed. It is tough but constantly evaluating your stock is the toughest part of horse breeding and I feel that you have to be open to failure and learn from it.

Simon


----------



## AdorableAlice (16 May 2012)

Allover said:



			What would he have not been good enough for? 

If he had, as you say, OK conformation, nice temp and good movement but a little "short of braincells" then a few more years to mature in the paddock may have been all he needed to be up to the standard of being a decent horse who could have had a long and fullfilling life. (Unless of course you were under the impression he was actually mentally compromised and a danger to himself and others around him IYKWIM)

I am presuming here that you are a breeder of quality sports horses, do you follow the lives of all your offspring to make sure that they are being well cared for and not passed from pillar to post and are you prepared to take them back if needs be? 

I may be wrong here but your decision to PTS was down to financial reasons alone, you did not want that your reputation be "tarred" from having not bred a "star" horse and did not have the financial commitment to him to see him through for a couple of years to "see what happened".

IMO your decision to PTS of this colt is in no way comparable to the "culling" of hill ponies and the like who are being shoved through meat markets and exported to god knows where to meet god knows what fate.
		
Click to expand...

Assume = never do this, it can easily make an ass out of you and me.


----------



## Allover (16 May 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			Assume = never do this, it can easily make an ass out of you and me.
		
Click to expand...

As does not reading posts properly, i presumed not assumed!!!


----------



## AdorableAlice (16 May 2012)

Allover said:



			As does not reading posts properly, i presumed not assumed!!! 

Click to expand...

Much the same, still a very rude post.  Simsar would not put a bullet in a young horse's head without a very good reason and neither would the rest of us.

I fail to see why you need to question the OP on his/her reason.


----------



## Simsar (16 May 2012)

Allover said:



			What would he have not been good enough for? 

If he had, as you say, OK conformation, nice temp and good movement but a little "short of braincells" then a few more years to mature in the paddock may have been all he needed to be up to the standard of being a decent horse who could have had a long and fullfilling life. (Unless of course you were under the impression he was actually mentally compromised and a danger to himself and others around him IYKWIM)

I am presuming here that you are a breeder of quality sports horses, do you follow the lives of all your offspring to make sure that they are being well cared for and not passed from pillar to post and are you prepared to take them back if needs be? 
Yes I am in touch with all that I have bred and more than happy to take them back if I can!

I may be wrong here but your decision to PTS was down to financial reasons alone, you did not want that your reputation be "tarred" from having not bred a "star" horse and did not have the financial commitment to him to see him through for a couple of years to "see what happened".
You are in fact wrong in this case, I am more than happy to breed an average horse that will be someones plod, and as for the financial reasons this is not a problem as I have been very fortunate to sell most of my stock for GOOD money and the costs of running them on are not out of my reach, this colt was the sort of animal who would have been passed around and as there had been ABSOLUTLY no change in him over the last year the descision was made to PTS, as I have already said it was not an easy descision as I had hoped this boy would 'come right' but it was clear to those who had met him that he was never going to make anything so why flood the market with another horse, judge me all you like *I* know it was the right descision made for the right reasons.

IMO your decision to PTS of this colt is in no way comparable to the "culling" of hill ponies and the like who are being shoved through meat markets and exported to god knows where to meet god knows what fate.
		
Click to expand...

But it is comparable because if everyone sold on horse like this than we would never have a bottom to the market and the very horses you talk about would face an even more uncertain future.

Simon


----------



## Simsar (16 May 2012)

Healthy debate ladies!!!  

Everyone is entitled to there opinion.

ETA Allover I did say very short.... not a little....... 

Also this is not a descision that has happened over night I have thought long and hard about it, and if it were for purely monetry reasons surely I would have had it done before the winter and not now when they are all out at grass!


----------



## BigRed (16 May 2012)

I think Simsar is very brave and correct to cull a young horse that he does not feel will grown up to be a useful horse.  Horses that are correctly put together and are trainable will be more likely to have a secure future than weak speciments with difficult minds.

The term useful means something different to all of us.  I don't mean a horse that necessarily will go to GP.  Just a horse that will stay sound and be trainable enough to be a reliable riding animal for someone.

Lame horses or nut jobs are the sad cases that get handed from one home to another.


----------



## Allover (16 May 2012)

I am unsure as to what level you are breeding your horses too. If you are hoping to breed "top" competition horses then one that is not up to standard may well turn out to be a fab RC horse that does a grand job on a smaller scale. 

If you are breeding to RC level and you found the colt not to be up to that standard and "difficult" to boot then PTS may have been to best option for him. 

What makes a useful horse? Surely that all depends on the owners?

I have seen horses labelled as thick, or short of a braincell or 2, who are jumping 1m50 tracks, as i mentioned in my previous post this would only be a problem for me if he was dangerous to himself or others.

As far as i am aware from what Simsar has said, the horse was ok in conformation, a decent mover and of a good disposition. Just not the sharpest in the box. 

This to me is not good enough reason to PTS. If the horse had poor conformation, moved like a dog and was dangerous to be around then fair enough.


----------



## wits end (16 May 2012)

With mares, we rarely use anything that doesn't have a stellar competition record. We have several ex racers, eventers (inc several 2/3* mares) one pure dressage mare, and a couple of showjumpers. Each mare combines this with an outstanding pedigree. We have one mare whose lineage is unknown but she is the exception to the rule, part owned by a very successful eventer who tends to keep all her foals anyway 

Stallion wise, again we use the principle of successful sports horse + good pedigree to bring out the best in our mares. As an example, on Sunday our Soprano filly was born. We chose him to bring in sex balanced Ramiro Z lines, and concentrate Phalaris, Precipitation and Teddy, whilst decreasing to 63% TB.  
Again, the exception is our own stallion who is only 4 years old, and though showing extreme potential under saddle (and in the show ring) obviously has limited competition results. 

As a result, we have successful foals for the upper level amateur or professional.

Whilst I do appreciate that someone needs to breed horses and hacks for the true amateur or pleasure rider, in my opinion the problems arise when it is the amateur breeder attempting this. 
Regardless of if a horse is only being bred to do riding club level competition, or hack a few times a week etc, the breeder still needs to be aware of breeding for correct conformation, soundness and minimizing faults. You see on many forums people assuming that regardless of trainwreck conformation, their mare has served them well and therefore deserves to breed and pass these traits on. Just because it's for an amateur home doesn't mean conformation can be ignored!

On PTS youngstock, I have done it twice in the last four years. Foals were, as with OP conformationally fine but one colt broke his pelvis, the other we suspect had something wrong neurologically was was prone to snapping. Yes, the latter could have been sold on fine and no one would have noticed for a while, the former could have been rehabbed, but we made the decision to PTS rather than risk him being passed around for a lifetime as marginally unsound. 

I have not been in the position where I would have to PTS due to poor confo or not being a 'good advert' for the stud, we've been lucky. If I did, I would probably either keep foal out of pity (I'm soft) and it could grow up keeping the others company, then as a weaning buddy, or PTS if I wasn't in the financial position to keep them.


----------



## Maesfen (16 May 2012)

Allover said:



			This to me is not good enough reason to PTS. If the horse had poor conformation, moved like a dog and was dangerous to be around then fair enough.
		
Click to expand...

Excuse me for butting in but just what has it to do with you whether you think it's a good enough reason or not?  It wasn't your decision so please don't carp about it as if it was.  
Simsar knows his stock through and through and this one had always been a worry for him because it was so dense even with field mates to almost be a danger to them let alone himself so would be totally unsuitable to even be a plod if he couldn't look after himself let alone a rider; I applaud him for taking the responsible action, only wish more breeders would.  Bad conformation faults aren't the only sin, a sound and healthy mind (which this one didn't have) is almost more important because it can rebound so disastrously on other people; the only one affected by bad conformation is the horse itself.

FWIW, I have only bred from mares which have passed conformation and temperament muster; yes, there might be things you'd like to improve, there always are, nothing's perfect but they have never had any conformation faults as such.  I've always aimed to breed decent looking, good moving animals with great temperaments and can't have done too badly with show champions, race winners and great all rounders/hunters under my belt let alone them being bought by people like Andrew Nicholson, Robert Walker and my vet.
I have a coloured mare I bought as a hack and people automatically assumed I'd breed from her; how wrong they are.  The fact she has unknown breeding is not a problem for me but her conformation is; if there was a way to ensure she could never breed, ever, if I sold her then I would do it; she's attractive, a good performer with a nice temperament but she's not well made enough, full stop although many other people can't see my problem with her and would breed from her like a shot.  We're not all irresponsible to breed from anything with a womb.


----------



## Ibblebibble (16 May 2012)

fascinating discussion, i've often wondered if horse breeders were expected be be like dog breeders and take responsibility for the foals they produce, i am pleasantly surprised to hear that some are Have any of you ever taken back a horse that you have bred for any reason?


----------



## Littlelegs (16 May 2012)

I've never bred anything, nor have I worked on stud yards, but I'm going to stick my two pennyworths in anyway. I have a 23yr old pony that I deeply regret not breeding from when younger. She's 14.2, out of a well bred, but overheight connie with good lines, sire was a tb who's progeny were mostly nice low level affiliated all rounders. Despite being a cross, temperament & ability were strongly transferred traits on both sides. Let alone confirmation, both hers & parents, plus the fact she had a good competition record. I had lots of people in the past tell me it was a crime not to breed her, including a couple of breeders. I'm pretty sure even in the current market any youngster of hers would have sold, she is the popular combination of a pony able to be handled by a tiny tot, whilst still being able to hold her own competing. She'd never breed a champion, but good quality allrounders for pony club yes. So if I had bred it would have been responsible. However random fools have told me to breed from daughters unregistered 11.1, who whilst a nice pony, is unregistered (mini x nf we think) & will be only 7 or 8 when outgrown so won't have a fab track record as a kids pony. That to me sums up irresponsible breeding, to breed with no personal use & no market. 
 As for breeders choosing to pts, it seems obvious to me if they were doing it for anything other than good reasons, it would surely make more economical sense to sell, so I don't think its necessary to question their motives. 
  Irresponsible breeding to me is breeding when you have no good market, unless you intend keeping yourself.


----------



## Cherrygarden (16 May 2012)

No haven't taken one back but have gone well out of my way and willingly, with pleasure to help someone keep a horse by my stallion that she keeps trying to give back as she feels he could go further than she might want to. Happily we have found ways to work everything and she also now believes that she deserves a decent horse after all the mad, messes she has had in the past.
I am also considering trying to work out keeping a small share in any I breed, not so I gain from their futures just because I want to safeguard them. I have no idea if this is workable or even if people will still buy but haven't sold any yet so nothing ventured nothing gained I suppose.
Would I put down something not up to standard, if it had reduced quality of life or was dangerous yes and every day I look at my now 5 year old that was a very challenged orphan and wonder. I bred her to sell as so many people offered money for her older sister but will never sell her now despite having been asked to several times since she was a foal. She is not right enough in my opinion but it seems that buyers will not beware enough to take that into account.


----------



## wits end (16 May 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			fascinating discussion, i've often wondered if horse breeders were expected be be like dog breeders and take responsibility for the foals they produce, i am pleasantly surprised to hear that some are Have any of you ever taken back a horse that you have bred for any reason?
		
Click to expand...

I took one of my mares back, though my situation was a little different to others. I'd sold her in 2000, she was sold on a couple of times before ending up with a international eventer who got her to ** level. I entered into a breeding partnership with the eventer, and recognized Effie, who was coming to the end of her competitive life, so her owner signed her over to me.

Effie has since gone on to breed a multiple FEH Grand Champion colt, and is in foal to Riverman for this season to capitalize on Landgraf and Ibrahim lines.


----------



## Ibblebibble (16 May 2012)

thank you for answering cherrygarden and wits end, it is reassuring to know that there are responsible breeders out there, we tend to only hear about the ones who are churning out poor quality stock as a money making exercise.
I have often been asked why i don't put my big mare in foal, she's a 17hh ISH by Able Albert and people assume i must want to make money out of her i have no intention of ever breeding from her as i don't feel i have enough knowledge on the subject and and am not prepared to risk her in any way for my own gain.


----------



## Allover (16 May 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Excuse me for butting in but just what has it to do with you whether you think it's a good enough reason or not?  It wasn't your decision so please don't carp about it as if it was.  
Simsar knows his stock through and through and this one had always been a worry for him because it was so dense even with field mates to almost be a danger to them let alone himself so would be totally unsuitable to even be a plod if he couldn't look after himself let alone a rider; I applaud him for taking the responsible action, only wish more breeders would.  Bad conformation faults aren't the only sin, a sound and healthy mind (which this one didn't have) is almost more important because it can rebound so disastrously on other people; the only one affected by bad conformation is the horse itself.

Am i not allowed an opinion? If you post on a public forum you have to expect not all views will be the same as the ones you hold?

If you go back and read my posts you will see that i have said all along that "if it was a danger to itself and others" then i would have no problem with PTS. What i do have a problem with is PTS of an animal that, although sound of body and nice tempered, is deemed to be a bit "dim".
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Simsar (16 May 2012)

Am i not allowed an opinion? If you post on a public forum you have to expect not all views will be the same as the ones you hold?

If you go back and read my posts you will see that i have said all along that "if it was a danger to itself and others" then i would have no problem with PTS. What i do have a problem with is PTS of an animal that, although sound of body and nice tempered, is deemed to be a bit "dim".

The problem is that you presume to know my predicament from a few words here, I have at no point said he was a bit ''dim'' if he was just that I would have said just that and he would still be in my field.

As I have said all along opinions and sensible debate are welcome. However as I have also said don't think for one second this was an easy descision to make and there were lots of reasons (some of which I have explained) for this colt being PTS, the whole point of this post was to see what others thought responsible breeding was about it seems to have gone a little off topic and focused on one thing.

Maesfen was only butting in as she knows the situation better than most as I have had some of her stock here and have spoken to her about this colt since he was born, I could go into lots of detail about him, but there really was no need. Ultimately it was his mind (or lack off) that was in question but as the person who delt with him every day I felt that I was the best person to judge this and with some help from vets and other experienced breeding friends came to what I felt was the right descision.

So now can we please get back to the original topic.....................


----------



## Simsar (16 May 2012)

Have I ever taken stock back?

No, so far I haven't had to, however I have pulled out on sales if I felt that the new owner wasn't the best for the youngster, and I hope that by placing them with the right person I *SHOULDN'T* have to take any back.


----------



## Maesfen (16 May 2012)

I was given one back (does that count?) when the owner emigrated to NZ, he was 15 then, just 22 now, full of beans and enjoying life as a happy hacker/hunter for a friend who couldn't afford to buy what he was; when she thinks he's had enough of being ridden he'll come back home.

Like Simsar, I will hopefully have done my homework on new owners but should the need arise, they all know I will do my best to help them out, yes, even if that means having them back.


----------



## Ibblebibble (16 May 2012)

Simsar said:



			Have I ever taken stock back?

No, so far I haven't had to, however I have pulled out on sales if I felt that the new owner wasn't the best for the youngster, and I hope that by placing them with the right person I *SHOULDN'T* have to take any back. 

Click to expand...

 good point,but if , due to some unforseen change in circumstance would you take a youngster back rather than it being put through the sales or sold on ?
BTW i am impressed that you've pulled out of sales for the sake of the horse, that is so how it should be


----------



## Allover (16 May 2012)

Simsar said:



			The problem is that you presume to know my predicament from a few words here, I have at no point said he was a bit ''dim'' if he was just that I would have said just that and he would still be in my field.

i can only form an opinion on what you have written here, it was Maefsen that mentioned the horse could be dangerous. Again if you read my posts i specifically said that if the horse was dangerous then PTS would be the best option. In fact after your last post it seems that i am agreeing with your decision? 


So now can we please get back to the original topic..................... 

Click to expand...

.....


----------



## classic_astra (16 May 2012)

maybe if alot more breeders were as responsible as simsar is we wouldnt even be having this discussion


----------



## Simsar (16 May 2012)

i can only form an opinion on what you have written here, it was Maefsen that mentioned the horse could be dangerous. Again if you read my posts i specifically said that if the horse was dangerous then PTS would be the best option. In fact after your last post it seems that i am agreeing with your decision? 

True, but maybe the lesson is do not always assume the worst in people  

I wouldn't say he was intentionally dangerous just that his brain would allow him to trip over his own feet! I have actually had in the past month one offer to buy him and one to 'take him off my hands' i turned both down for his benefit but it would have been easy to pass the 'problem' on.


----------



## Lgd (16 May 2012)

How many off you evaluate your youngstock to the point of culling(PTS) those that do not come up to scratch?
		
Click to expand...

I'm a small scale private breeder and thankfully this something I've never had to do, although last years filly was PTS due to an illness which was irretrievable. 
If I thought an animal had no future or would be a danger then yes I would PTS as I can't afford to keep a pasture ornament and I won't pass on my mistakes.




			What do you look for in your mares?
		
Click to expand...

Performance, temperament, soundness and conformation. Both of the mares I have bred from competed to PSG/InterI level in dressage and did most of the GP work. My personal choice is that I will not breed from a mare unless she has made it to Medium level successfully. I had both mares graded as well, one with KWPN and the other with SHB-GB.




			Stallions?
		
Click to expand...

Performance, temperament, soundness and conformation, graded. 

Sire of the first three I bred is International GP. Although do confess to taking a punt on a first season stallion last year as he had exactly the bloodlines I wanted and suited the mare conformationally. Risk has paid off as the foal is looking very good so far (he's only 5 days old) and is already sold. He's also not bred for dressage but for eventing which is not as weird as it sounds. The mare is very much eventing/jumping bred and has a huge pop, I just happened to do dressage with her.


----------



## Alec Swan (16 May 2012)

In truth,  I'm not altogether sure what "Responsible breeding" is.  I'll admit to rather "Flicking" through this thread,  and perhaps if I'd read the whole thing I would have a better understanding.

By _responsible,  _do we mean from the point of view of morality,  as in "Should we",  be breeding?  We breed horses for others to buy,  and to ride.  We tailor our breeding plans (or we should),  and we aim for a certain market place.  I'm not trying to be picky,  or to bring needles semantics into this,  but I fail to understand the point of the word responsible,  and attach it to breeding.

A responsible breeder is a different creature altogether,  and it has very little to do with the choice of a mare or a stallion.  As a responsible breeder,  for instance,  I put down an ET foal last year,  rather than sell him on,  knowing that I couldn't do so with a clear conscience.  I have another foal from last year,  who though beautifully bred,  and expensive to arrive at,  has I believe,  a neurological problem,  and dependent upon whether I'm right,  or not,  depends whether she leaves here alive,  or not.

Obviously,  I want the youngsters which I breed to go on and be a credit to me.  I don't sell horses to idiots,  hopefully,  but short of that,  when I've sold a youngster,  what ever the buyer does with it,  is for them to decide.  Breeders have no copyright when it comes to the youngsters which they sell,  and the best that we can hope for,  is that we sell to responsible and caring owners.

If I've missed the main point,  and gone off at a tangent,  again,  then say so,  I wont mind!!

Simon,  good to hear that you're still alive,  and your mares sound well. 

Alec.


----------



## s4sugar (16 May 2012)

The first foal I bred was PTS at 2 days old.
Carefully planned and very expensive but a dummy foal bred to be 17 hands having grand mal type seizures was not going to be a viable prospect or safe to be around.

Responsible breeding is breeding foals/horses with a future whether that be for competition or fun hacks.
 Just turning out foals destined for meat is not responsible nor is breeding from unsound or unsafe stock. I have no problem with breeding for a riding club sort. I personally don't like Continental warmbloods and feel it is a pity the HIS never set up a part bred TB registry.

I think I have previously mentioned that I think stallion licencing should return?


----------



## lme (17 May 2012)

Not sure whether it is irresponsible but I generally breed because I want a foal from a much loved mare. So far, I've bred a couple of foals from a TB x Irish mare who I've now owned for over 25 years. One (when she was 4) was a colt & I sold him to my then trainer who took him to Belgium where he got to PSG level. His sire was a small TB but he ended up @ 16:3 (far too big for me) & I prefer to ride mares. The second  a chestnut mare by a SHGB stallion, who she had when she was 20) is only 15:3 but is (for us) the perfect family horse. She is clever, tough, lives out all year, jumps, moves well & loves to work. At some point, I will breed from her because I want to continue the line. A filly would be nice, but if she has a colt, one or other of my daughters will take him on & compete him / have fun with him, so he will have a job.


----------



## GinnieRedwings (17 May 2012)

I personally think there are very few "irresponsible" breeders around.

Excluding people who keep fields-full of permanently pregnant mares running with a stallion, in the name of "culture" because that is what they have always done, then I think most breeders, small and large, give a great deal of thought to what they breed - whether from a much-loved family horse or a top show-jumper.

At the risk of repeating myself, I entirely disagree with the BHS Responsible Breeding Campaign, inasmuch as I think they are missing the point entirely. I think they should be concentrating on *responsible management of existing stock* instead. In my view, Simsar's (very responsible, IMO) decision to PTS his colt falls in that category. 

To me, that means responsible euthanasia of animals which are unlikely to fulfil a useful purpose, whether it be because of unsoundness, or temperament or whatever else. I will NEVER agree with the charities policy to keep all horses alive WHW & Redwings, up the road from me, are full to the brink but only have a handful of horses up for rehoming. In my view, *anything that cannot be rehomed to the right person ought to be PTS*. That goes for all the people who advertise their unsound or injured horses as companions or very light hacks  if they were responsible owners, they would PTS rather than pass on the issue, because the potential for a welfare issue down the road (i.e. the horse being sold on as a riding horse to someone else by some unscrupulous intermediary) is so great cruel and irresponsible. Because realistically, who would chose to get an ex-racehorse (lets say for the sake of argument) as a companion??? Now, if they wish to keep them as a field ornament and look after them for the rest of their life  that is entirely their (responsible) choice. 

Now, I have spent most of my adult life rehabbing horses with issues, because I happen to have the inclination, the patience and the skill. Thats how I happen to have in my field a little ex-racing TB mare, who is the easiest little riding horse ever  canters like a rocking horse with 9 year old girl rendered nervous by naughty pony! Should she have made it that far? IMO, no! She should have been PTS when shed outstayed her welcome with the racing industry. Why? Because it doesnt matter that in the right hands she had the potential to become a useful horse, the point is, in most peoples hands, she had even more potential to be a dangerous one! She was just lucky her owner recognised that fact and gave her to me. I am, unfortunately, stuck with her now, as it would be irresponsible of me to pass her on, unless I found the right person So far, no luck!


----------



## Sportznight (17 May 2012)

GinnieRedwings said:



			I personally think there are very few "irresponsible" breeders around.

Excluding people who keep fields-full of permanently pregnant mares running with a stallion, in the name of "culture" because that is what they have always done, then I think most breeders, small and large, give a great deal of thought to what they breed - whether from a much-loved family horse or a top show-jumper.

At the risk of repeating myself, I entirely disagree with the BHS Responsible Breeding Campaign, inasmuch as I think they are missing the point entirely. I think they should be concentrating on *responsible management of existing stock* instead. In my view, Simsar's (very responsible, IMO) decision to PTS his colt falls in that category. 

To me, that means responsible euthanasia of animals which are unlikely to fulfil a useful purpose, whether it be because of unsoundness, or temperament or whatever else. I will NEVER agree with the charities policy to keep all horses alive WHW & Redwings, up the road from me, are full to the brink but only have a handful of horses up for rehoming. In my view, *anything that cannot be rehomed to the right person ought to be PTS*. That goes for all the people who advertise their unsound or injured horses as companions or very light hacks  if they were responsible owners, they would PTS rather than pass on the issue, because the potential for a welfare issue down the road (i.e. the horse being sold on as a riding horse to someone else by some unscrupulous intermediary) is so great cruel and irresponsible. Because realistically, who would chose to get an ex-racehorse (lets say for the sake of argument) as a companion??? Now, if they wish to keep them as a field ornament and look after them for the rest of their life  that is entirely their (responsible) choice.
		
Click to expand...

Ditto this 100%!!  And I have done exactly that - PTS a MUCH loved mare.


----------



## angrovestud (17 May 2012)

Last year we had to PTS my foal he tore is carpal medial ligament and at three weeks old his leg was swinging it was harrowing, we stupidly tried to save him and I say stupidly because we should have pts there and then, we had fought so hard to get him in the first place, I should say my vet who is a family friend also knows are bloodline and we all decided to try, we thought he could at least have a home for life here at Angrove,  if anything else happens like this I would pts as it became evident it was a lost cause his other leg compensated  for the bad leg and at four months old his good leg started to become deformed,the bad leg was terrible he could walk trot and canter, but the bad leg was turned out very badly,he would have had a life of pain we could not put him throught that,the mare had to be PTS as well as she had cushing lami and had pedal bone rotation and she had enough, I could be like so many others and passed her on I hate this why do it if you cant face the end why should someone else want to.


----------



## GinnieRedwings (17 May 2012)

The other conclusion I have come to as a result of my work with young and troubled horses is that the great majority of problem horses are made so by insensitive and/or incompetent handling and training between the birth and the age of 5/6. I believe very few foals are born bad or with a bad temperament. Some are more sensitive, more wilful, more placid, more acceptant, closer to their flight instinct, whatever. With the right handling and training to suit their personality, whatever particular weakness that might make them less able to become good citizens as a riding horse can almost always be ironed out.  I am of course talking about foals born without any neurological or other physical issues. 

Because of that, a relatively inexperienced with youngsters novice breeder is more likely to succeed in making a good citizen of a foal from their sweet cob mare, than trying their hand at breeding a performance animal who will most probably be too much for them to handle from an early age. This is why I always cringe when I see people trying to discourage others to breed unless they are planning on breeding a top class performance animal 

I could write an essay about this but I wont bore you The point is that perhaps it would be more responsible for breeders to keep stock until they are 5 year old good citizens? That we never ever sell a foal to anyone who is likely to treat them like their lovely baby and turn them into rude monsters? Or hammer them into the ground too young and make them chronically lame? Or fluff up their backing and make them unrideable?

Is there really an answer at breeder level? I think that managing the surplus of badly produced horses, accepting that due to the nature of the horse and the nature of the humans who handle them, there will always be an element of wastage, which sadly we must accept, and deal with in the only realistic way there is


----------



## AMH (17 May 2012)

I bred a filly last year out of a friend's mare to be a riding horse for me in the future. 

Unfortunately, and despite having been scanned at the appropriate time for pinching out, the mare twinned, carrying both full term and foaling two live ones (not an experience I EVER wish to repeat!). I spent much time, emotion and money trying to do the best for them both. Sadly we lost one, but the other, a filly, has just had her first birthday. She's growing on fine and is very sweet and friendly (if not a little 'yearlingish' just now!). 

Because she was one of twins, I have always been very concerned about how she will develop. I have heard anectodal reports that they can 'look fine' and grow on OK for a time, but that they can start to have developmental problems later on. I have no experience of this, so am just keeping my fingers crossed. 

Despite the fact that she is my horse for the future, if she begins to show developmental problems which could be too severe to overcome I will have to think long and hard about whether I keep going with her. I'm not someone who has a reputation to protect or someone looking for commercial viability, but merely someone looking to produce a horse which is right for me. I bred from that mare because I love her and I think she has quality (she is BWBS graded), and I am unlikely to have another opportunity to do so, since the mare owner's circumstances have changed. But if my filly goes 'wrong' then I will have a serious decision to make. It will break my heart and ruin my future plans, but if it's the best thing for both of us then so be it.

It is the responsibility of everyone who breeds, no matter for what purpose, to be objective about the prospects of the animal they breed and to ensure that, whether they keep the animal or sell it on, it has a useful life ahead of it.


----------



## tabithakat64 (17 May 2012)

For me responsible breeding is breeding from a mare with decent bloodlines, near perfect movement, temperment and conformation. Preferrably the mare would also havean excellent competition record and registered or graded with the apropriate breed society.

I would only breed to a provern stallion that meets the same criteria and compliments any minor weaknesses the mare may have.

Unfortunately, I've possibly been put put in a position where my mare who does meet the above criteria may be in foal to a rather lovely 13.2hh traditional colt. Not a choice I would have made.

However, I do not think I would be able to destroy the foal unless it has shockingly poor confirmation, is ill or dangerously agressive etc.  

If it is a colt he will be gelded as soon as this is an option so that I will not be adding to the problem of the numerous sub-standard stallions I see being offered for stud or being bred from these days.

I'm rather hoping that I will end up with a foal who can become a useful riding horse at the very least.


----------



## AdorableAlice (17 May 2012)

tabithakat64 said:



			For me responsible breeding is breeding from a mare with decent bloodlines, near perfect movement, temperment and conformation. Preferrably the mare would also havean excellent competition record and registered or graded with the apropriate breed society.

I would only breed to a provern stallion that meets the same criteria and compliments any minor weaknesses the mare may have.

With that view at least 80% of the UK's mare herd would never be bred from.

How many of us can honestly say we have one or two mares, as described above, stood in our yards and available for breeding.

It would be no good me having that criteria, even if I had the mare, for starters I am not capable of riding a well bred, full of scope, competition horse.  I do not have the ability to rear, break or educate it.

However, I have, and many others have or plan to, breed from a family mare that is honest and kind but has no fancy bloodlines, can only bumble over a hunt tiger trap and the only ribbon it's acquired has been for finishing a pleasure ride on a Sunday afternoon.  In my view I do not feel I was irresponsible in sending my rather plain cob mare to an appropriate stallion to enable me to breed my next family allrounder, as long as the mare is sound in body and mind and is correct for her type why should I not have a foal from her.

It has been fascinating reading the 3 threads currently running regarding breeding and I have come to the conclusion that far too many 'hobby' breeders are being ridiculed for wanting to breed an ordinary fun horse.  

These fun/allrounder types are by our traditional stallions, the ID, ISH, large native breeds and TB crosses. There will always be a market for this type of nicely bred jack of all trades.

Irresponsible breeding is Dolly Dandybrush being sent half a mile down the road to be covered by Basil Bogbrush and the result can be seen 18 months later fetching 10 guineas at market.  It is this that needs stamping out, it is this that is irresponsible breeding, not the professional breeder making a decision about the future of a challenged youngster.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## tabithakat64 (17 May 2012)

Alice, I was not calling anyone else an irresponsible breeder.  I was simply expressing my own opinions on the subject and I am certainly not an expert on any level.

I have no issues at all with someone wanting to breed a nice RC allrounder, a quality traditional or native as long as they are bred sensibly with a job in mind. I still believe that these should have good conformation, temperament, bloodlines etc and as I said also ideally be registered/graded and have a competition record at a suitable level.

What I do disagree with is breeding from poor stock to make a fast buck.


----------



## Clodagh (17 May 2012)

My mare was reasonable looking and correct, but no world beater. I bred from her because I fancied having a foal to play with! I went to a stallion that stamps his stock and is of an excellent temperament, he isn't graded but to me that didn't matter, I would not have gone to a warmblood and IMO most graded horses are warmbloods (I accept that may be wrong, but its my assumption).
Also, a graded stallion would not have made a foal from my ungraded mare any better or more sellable (again, IMO).
So to me, the requirements for both mare and stallion are temperament, temperament, conformation and temperament! No point me, as a hobby horse owner, having a beautiful horse I can't ride!


----------



## magic104 (17 May 2012)

GinnieRedwings said:



			The other conclusion I have come to as a result of my work with young and troubled horses is that the great majority of problem horses are made so by insensitive and/or incompetent handling and training between the birth and the age of 5/6. I believe very few foals are born bad or with a bad temperament. Some are more sensitive, more wilful, more placid, more acceptant, closer to their flight instinct, whatever. With the right handling and training to suit their personality, whatever particular weakness that might make them less able to become good citizens as a riding horse can almost always be ironed out.  I am of course talking about foals born without any neurological or other physical issues. 

Because of that, a relatively inexperienced with youngsters novice breeder is more likely to succeed in making a good citizen of a foal from their sweet cob mare, than trying their hand at breeding a performance animal who will most probably be too much for them to handle from an early age. This is why I always cringe when I see people trying to discourage others to breed unless they are planning on breeding a top class performance animal 

I could write an essay about this but I wont bore you The point is that perhaps it would be more responsible for breeders to keep stock until they are 5 year old good citizens? That we never ever sell a foal to anyone who is likely to treat them like their lovely baby and turn them into rude monsters? Or hammer them into the ground too young and make them chronically lame? Or fluff up their backing and make them unrideable?

Is there really an answer at breeder level? I think that managing the surplus of badly produced horses, accepting that due to the nature of the horse and the nature of the humans who handle them, there will always be an element of wastage, which sadly we must accept, and deal with in the only realistic way there is
		
Click to expand...

I am sorry but I just dont agree with "Because of that, a relatively inexperienced with youngsters novice breeder is more likely to succeed in making a good citizen of a foal from their sweet cob mare, than trying their hand at breeding a performance animal who will most probably be too much for them to handle from an early age."  The Characteristic's you describe "Some are more sensitive, more wilful, more placid, more acceptant, closer to their flight instinct, whatever. With the right handling and training to suit their personality, whatever particular weakness that might make them less able to become good citizens as a riding horse can almost always be ironed out." happen to be the same regardless whether the dam be a performance mare or a sweet cob mare.  Inappropriate handling will ruin most foals/youngsters even those with the potential to have a more forgiving nature.  You can see a vast difference in horses natures from TB's through to native ponies of the same breed.  Also just because someone has been around adult horses does not mean they have the temperment to take on a youngster.  Sorry if this offends people, but I can assure you there are performance bred horses that are giving lots of fun to plenty of novices.


----------



## AMH (17 May 2012)

But there are also some 'performance horses' which are simply not suitable for amateur riders, because of their lack of rideability


----------



## AMH (17 May 2012)

But there are also some 'performance horses' which are simply not suitable for amateur riders, because of their lack of rideability. 
If rideability and trainability were not an issue in breeding, they wouldn't be traits specifically measured by stud books like the Hanoverian Verband. 

If someone has a nice mare which they love and wish to breed from FOR THEMSELVES there is no reason why they shouldn't. I consider that to be responsible breeding, as long as the mare has been assessed for obvious, potentially catastrophic, conformational or breeding defects.


----------



## jamesmead (18 May 2012)

On the other hand, the most cunning, wilful and - well, feral, opportunistic horses I personally have ever met have ALL been native or cob types... The TBs of my acquaintance have always been relatively civilised and decent...

edited to say that I'm not suggesting that every native or cob is like this; but a cob isn't necessarily safer than a thoroughbred, especially if that TB is already worldly-wise from the racecourse.


----------



## Sportznight (18 May 2012)

jamesmead said:



			On the other hand, the most cunning, wilful and - well, feral, opportunistic horses I personally have ever met have ALL been native or cob types... The TBs of my acquaintance have always been relatively civilised and decent...

edited to say that I'm not suggesting that every native or cob is like this; but a cob isn't necessarily safer than a thoroughbred, especially if that TB is already worldly-wise from the racecourse.
		
Click to expand...

So true!  Every case should be treated on an individual basis.

E.G. my sister has a very pretty (pretty enough to have been a hack) little ex-racehorse.  He's quirky, but safe, for my VERY novice sister.  She also has an EXTREMELY opinionated pony that is of Hafflinger/cob type.  And she also has an absolute saint of a Shetland pony for the kids.  You just can't generalise on breeds/types.

ETA - the saint of a Shetland is only a 6yo and he's been saintly since he was 2 and a half.


----------



## AdorableAlice (18 May 2012)

Have a look at the thread titled 'For all the coblet lovers' posted today.

Hard to say who dam and sire are, hard to say which camp this super chap falls into, responsible or irresponsible breeding.......but if he is in the same dressage class as the fancy warmblood, I just reckon the warmblood could be the one with the blue rosette.

Lovely video, well worth watching.


----------



## TheresaW (18 May 2012)

I like to think I was responsible when I chose to breed from my mare. I wanted to breed for myself, something that I could bring on and just go out and have fun on. Doll has a fab temperament and had never been lame in the 8 years I'd owned her.  During the time we were decision making, she injured herself and ended up having 9 months off. Many people suggested putting her in foal then as I was unable to ride her, but we made sure she came right again first and got her back to fully fit again. We took advice from someone that knew dolly and was a knowledgeable breeder about which stallion would best suit what I wanted to breed. Unfortunately, after a textbook pregnancy, after twinning and having one successfully pinched, the foal was stillborn, and after she lost the 2nd early on in the pregnancy, I didn't have the heart to try again.  We are just back to having fun now.


----------



## Kallibear (18 May 2012)

Responsible breeding= producing something easily marketable with a good, sound, healthy future ahead of it. A horse most people would WANT to own. 

That does NOT include scabby cob mares being bred to anything because they can, in the hope of making £100. It DOES include much loved family pets with decent conformation and good temperament producing a nice foal who will be brought up properly and go on to do similar as it's mother. Even if it's just happy hacking.

The vast majority of riders in the UK do not want big talented power houses they can't ride the trot of, or sit the jump. Well bred competition horses (the like that many seem to approve of being bred) are TOO MUCH for most riders. They want quiet, kind sensible everyday dobbins with a decent enough conformation to remain sound in hard work. Couldn't care less about it's bloodlines as long as it does the job. 

Irresponsible breeding is mass producing foals with little though to their future other than 'sell it or send to market'. Or breeding a much loved but difficult mare in the hope of getting something nicer and more ridable. If you would not be satisfied with an exact relica foal, don't breed it. Yes, always try to improve (bit bigger, bit smaller, slightly better set neck etc) but if you'd be disappointed if the foal does turn out exactly the same (temperament/conformation etc) don't breed it!

I have a nice mare i'm (kind of, in future) thinking about breeding but would no doubt be frowned upon by 'bloodline breeders'. Nice looking bigger (15.2) HW cob mare. Lovely movement, kind, safe, sensible and loves to work. Nice conformation. Totally sound and healthy at 18. And not a scooby on her breeding lines.

I would love something a little bigger and lighter (so would put her to a hunter type) but would be thrill if I just got an exact replica. And would easily have a queue of people to buy it as her type is desirable. 
Is that more or less responsible that breeding multiple 'well bred' sport horse foals every year in hope of a super star?


----------



## Rollin (18 May 2012)

I breed rare breeds.  This year I have  not bred any foals as I do not have space to keep any more.  I don't mind running them till 3 yo my motivation is not to make money but to do my bit for the breed.

Our first foal a Shagya colt was one of only 3 approved for the stud book last year out of 13 presented, we have a Shagya and a CB filly both of whom I am pleased with. For us it is quality not quantity.

We plan two more foals for next year.


----------



## magic104 (18 May 2012)

If you don't know the blood lines how do you replicate the good ones?  If you dont know the blood lines how do you weed out hereditary issues?  There is nothing wrong with a cob, just as there is nothing wrong with a TB or sportshorse or any horse/pony fit for a job.  Do you suppose all these people putting so much emphasis on temperment & conformation are doing it because they have nothing better to do.  There is no perfect horse as such but you don't have to breed from one that has more then 3 conformation weaknesses in the hope the stallion is going to iron them all out.  Though most of us would appreciate some of the best sports horses lack decent conformation, but they have the want to do the job.  It does mean though that they have to be managed to help them stay sound.  I have said before breeding for yourself is not an excuse to breed from any old mare to any old stallion.  Most of the horses I see are bog standard with no special breeding & they come with all sorts of problems.  The owners are no better, half the time they are scared of their own horses & these are the ones buying youngsters bred by someone who thought they would like to breed a replacement from their mare.  Or by the stud who runs their stallion/s out with a group of mares they have picked up cheap. There are plenty of decent bog standard animals I do not see a shortage of them.    

Responsible breeding is also being conscious about what you want to acheive.  Breeding something that can find a home because it is wanted.  From what I can gauge most posters are of the opinion that every mare owner has the right to breed, unless it has temperment or conformation issues.  Well temperment can be man made, & what is considered as poor conformation?  I ask because even one with a number of weaknesses is still considered good enough.  There is nothing wrong in wanting to know the blood lines of your horse, it does not an equine snob make you.  Hope that's good enough English for yer!


----------



## perlino (18 May 2012)

Good enough English magic? Are you having a laugh? *temperament *don't *cheaply *achieve - i suggest you stop being such a bitch and go out and buy yourself some spell checking software.


----------



## cloppy (18 May 2012)

Going slightly off topic.  When I did my stage 4 exam many moons ago a horse was brought out of the stable for us to assess conformation.  This horse was terrible with a temperament to match.  It was only after we had pulled it apart that we were told who he was - a badminton winner who had been reserve horse at the olympics among other successess.  Although not a breeding horse he lacked most of the qualitiies we "think" of today as acceptable in a competition horse.


----------



## magic104 (19 May 2012)

perlino said:



			Good enough English magic? Are you having a laugh? *temperament *don't *cheaply *achieve - i suggest you stop being such a bitch and go out and buy yourself some spell checking software.
		
Click to expand...

And I suggest to stick to the topic in hand rather then dragging it down the personal route again.  Over 1/2 the posts contain bad spelling, grammer & incorrect terms, ie out of (Stallion) when it should be out of mare by stallion.  Confirmation instead of conformation the list goes on.  You don't see me being such a bitch that I pick everyone up on it, I have stuck to the topic in hand.  Shame those like yourself chose not to do the same.


----------



## rach81 (19 May 2012)

As someone eagerly anticipating the arrival of my first homebred foal I have found this thread fascinating. My mare is 16:1hh bay and 15 years old ( can't work out how to do the photo thing) she's has double ear at be novice , novice dressage and riding clubbed. I bought her to hunt a job she does exceptionally well  and have been offered silly money for her . The stallion she went to also hunts with us , and compliments her beautifully. The plan is the coal will replace mum in the hunting field. While I know my made is not perfect (the person who bred her had tried to buy her back as her conformation is almost perfect) she's never been lame goes first or last (would rather be up front like her rider but if someone having trouble will let me try to help them out) only real fault is her feet but with a good farrier and regular trimming they are good ( surely a good farrier is someone a responsible horse owner should have regardless of whether the horse is perfect in everyway or not) . When mulling over the decision of whether to breed from her the only negative comment I got was "but what will you hunt next season?" . So hopefully I will shortly have a new arrival and will try my hardest to bring him/her up to follow in mums footsteps . One the other hand I have a lovely shireXtb who after 12 months of a few highs and some major lows (she's 5) is turning out to be a very special horse. I was told not to buy this mare as it throws a leg it's weak behind , which to be honest as a 3 year old she was . after much schooling she is has a very lovely big rounded bottom and gives the most amazing feeling when riding her . Yes she still throws a leg occasionally eat the end of a 4 hour fun ride. But she has a huge heart and tries her hardest even when shes so tired she's practi ally on her knees . 
Interestingly the person who told me not to buy my youngster is also my boss! Who went off to ireland and brought a couple of horses back , one who has the most horrendous conformation I've ever seen and at 7 comes out of his stable like a 27 year old . This horse is such a sweetheart and I absolutely adore him ( sadly he's seen as a commodity to them) I can with much hard work keep this horse sound but I know he willbe sold on very soon and passed from pillar to post .when I asked her a few questions about him she admitted shed not even asked to see him trotted up and that she knows  nothing about conformation but likes pretty horses!.  I hope I have been responsible in breeding from my mare and if there is the slightest chance there is something mentally wrong with the foal it will be PTs ( have been on the receiving end of mentally unstable it ended with a tree and an air ambulance) 
I guess I just wanted to say that I applaud the OP for being very honest and I'm sure some people will be horrified that he had a cute baby horse PTS but I think Its about time people started accepting more responsibility and thinking for the animals point of view. Something as a farmers wife I try to do ( and I'm trying to implement my fussiness into breeding of cows and sheep too- I even think I'm going to head over to the farmers weekly forum and start this debate over there) 
Apologies to anyone who has actually read this ramble I am slightly over tired and wish my mare would just get on with it


----------



## GinnieRedwings (19 May 2012)

Magic, don't you mean "grammar"? Also, could you please spell "tolerance" for me?

Rach, good luck and I hope your baby is everything you've hoped for. Trust me, it's worth the wait and the sleepless nights x


----------



## stolensilver (19 May 2012)

I'm a small scale breeder and try to breed horses I'd want to own and ride if it didn't need to do the day job to pay for them all! 

My main criteria are a sound, proven mare than can compete with an amateur against the professionals despite only being ridden part time. This is a tall order for any horse yet it is what most serious amateurs need. A horse who keeps their fitness easily, that comes out of the stable sane and kind no matter how many days they've had off and that remembers what you taught them in their previous ride so you can pick up where you left off. And that has quality and athleticism to be a winner even with the odds significantly stacked against them. 

I'm fortunate enough to have two mares who fit that description. The older one was an amazing blood hounding horse who then went on to compete to PSG in dressage and schooled most of Grand Prix with an amateur rider who was learning as they went along. She went from doing a PSG test to being AIed for her first foal at the age of 16. She's still sound and happy and has just had her third foal at the age of 19. 

The second mare is only 6. She went Elite at the Futurity and is schooling flying changes, half pass, passage and has just started piaffe. She finds everything easy. She's perfect for an amateur as she's incredibly kind and she only gets ridden three times a week. She should be a wonderful broodmare when she's older. She's just got to get to GP in dressage first. 

The criteria I apply when choosing a stallion are that they have to either be world class competitors themselves with proven soundness and a good temperament or have sired or been sired by world class competitors with multiple top level competition horses amongst their close relatives. When you stick to those rules it's surprising how few stallions there are to choose from.


----------



## chrissie1 (19 May 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			Have a look at the thread titled 'For all the coblet lovers' posted today.

Hard to say who dam and sire are, hard to say which camp this super chap falls into, responsible or irresponsible breeding.......but if he is in the same dressage class as the fancy warmblood, I just reckon the warmblood could be the one with the blue rosette.

Lovely video, well worth watching.
		
Click to expand...

Have yet to see that thread.  But some friends have not long sourced a coloured cob for someone who has taken up riding as a mature person.  They had trouble locating one that wasn't already sold, but finally found X, who once they had ridden him a few times has proved to be a saint.  

BUT another of their liveries has been schooling him and taken him competing for fun.  He has never been lower than second and recently won.  He is up against some very well bred horses, with all the tack/lorry etc to match, with trainers there in the warm up giving last minute instructions, but they get beaten by dear little X.  Granted the jockey can ride well, but X has no papers, from Ireland but is more than capable.  I am sure he was very irresponsibly bred.


----------



## maestro (19 May 2012)

Perhaps oversimplyfying it but for my breeding only becomes irresponsible if you are not prepared to take on board that you are responsible for what you have bred.  I am less concerned about what the mare is (Although she has got to tick enough boxes) than the owner being in a position to look after mare and foal with the money if things go wrong.  Breeding must not be taken lightly or on a shoestring, just because you fancy having a foal.


----------



## magic104 (19 May 2012)

GinnieRedwings said:



			Magic, don't you mean "grammar"? Also, could you please spell "tolerance" for me?
		
Click to expand...

Relevance to the thread is?


----------



## Wagtail (19 May 2012)

Simsar said:



			Misst
I actually started this post partly because I have just had a colt PTS today, who on paper should have been amazing but in reality wasn't and as I have said I want to know his fate and not that he is being passed from pillar to post also I personally wouldn't want him to have been a horse associated with my name (this sounds harsh but I believe reputation means alot in the horse world).


At what age do you "know" something is not good enough/"right"? 

Well with this youngster he had OK conformation, good movement, a nice temp but seemed very short on brain cells and something just said to me from day one that he might not be good enough, I gave him a year to mature a bit and see how he grew (physically and mentally) and to tell you the truth not a lot had changed apart from he had got bigger!! So the descision was made, like you say it is not a nice descision to make and it is heartbreaking when you think about it but that is horse breeding and sometimes things just don't go the way you plan them.

Thanks, I am glad it is reasuring to some people.

Simon
		
Click to expand...

You put a horse to sleep because he was a bit dim? And for your own reputation? How exactly did this manefest itself? What could he not do that you would expect him to do?


----------



## magic104 (19 May 2012)

Wagtail said:



			You put a horse to sleep because he was a bit dim? And for your own reputation? How exactly did this manefest itself? What could he not do that you would expect him to do?
		
Click to expand...

Already replied to pg 2
"Simsar knows his stock through and through and this one had always been a worry for him because it was so dense even with field mates to almost be a danger to them let alone himself so would be totally unsuitable to even be a plod if he couldn't look after himself let alone a rider; I applaud him for taking the responsible action, only wish more breeders would. Bad conformation faults aren't the only sin, a sound and healthy mind (which this one didn't have) is almost more important because it can rebound so disastrously on other people; the only one affected by bad conformation is the horse itself."


----------



## Wagtail (19 May 2012)

magic104 said:



			Already replied to pg 2
"Simsar knows his stock through and through and this one had always been a worry for him because it was so dense even with field mates to almost be a danger to them let alone himself so would be totally unsuitable to even be a plod if he couldn't look after himself let alone a rider; I applaud him for taking the responsible action, only wish more breeders would. Bad conformation faults aren't the only sin, a sound and healthy mind (which this one didn't have) is almost more important because it can rebound so disastrously on other people; the only one affected by bad conformation is the horse itself."
		
Click to expand...

Ok thanks.


----------



## magic104 (19 May 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Ok thanks. 

Click to expand...

The smilies don't work for me, sure they would help sometimes!!


----------



## woodtiger (21 May 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Excuse me for butting in but just what has it to do with you whether you think it's a good enough reason or not?  It wasn't your decision so please don't carp about it as if it was.  
Simsar knows his stock through and through and this one had always been a worry for him because it was so dense even with field mates to almost be a danger to them let alone himself so would be totally unsuitable to even be a plod if he couldn't look after himself let alone a rider; I applaud him for taking the responsible action, only wish more breeders would.  Bad conformation faults aren't the only sin, a sound and healthy mind (which this one didn't have) is almost more important because it can rebound so disastrously on other people; the only one affected by bad conformation is the horse itself.

We're not all irresponsible to breed from anything with a womb.
		
Click to expand...

This ^^^^

IMO Simsar's the paragon of "responsible breeding".  He produced a horse that is not suitable.  He doesn't pass it on to cause problems elsewhere, but deals with the problem himself.  I think humans could take a leaf from this book too, breeding for the sake of having a baby and getting benefits I think is criminal, but another argument entirely.

In Europe where horses are bred as an industry, a youngster that does not tick all the boxes will be culled. End of story.  I currently have a nine-year old showjumper.  Ultra careful, turns on a sixpence, he is a 1.20m horse (too small to do big tracks), so would suit a teenager or children on horses, however I am battling with myself about having him PTS -he has hospitalised two people, been evicted from two professional competition yards.  I have nowhere to keep him safely.  I have him on project horses, and am very specific about the home I am looking for.  If I cannot find anyone suitable (with the facilities, who is safe and responsible), he too will be PTS.  Incidentally, I believe that his behaviour developed as a result of bad management (abuse even), and it wasn't bred into him.  

Too often these days, people will pass on their problems, causing grief for everyone concerned.  Simsar, so me you are the epitome of a responsible breeder.  Thankyou!


----------

