# GRAFENSTOLZ



## KIMBY (8 February 2010)

There has been a few posts on here regarding his temperament i know he can be volatile but what is the opinion of his confirmation from anyone who has seen him in the flesh or had a foal of his.


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## madmare22 (8 February 2010)

i think he is stunning and tbh his temperament is good in the box and when i went to see him. He is just hot under saddle, all three of his paces are good and he has a super jump.


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## henryhorn (8 February 2010)

Regardless of how well conformed a stallion might be, why would anyone want to breed from a known "hot" temperament?
Sorry madmare but surely you need to take trainability into consideration as well as results and conformation?
Otherwise all you may be breeding are horses who will have no option but to be rides for professionals, and if they turn out not to be not top class, what use are they?
Having spent over 25 years trying to eliminate the "hot" part from our bloodline, believe me I know what I'm talking about!
Yes the horses can have the best jump, the bravest attitude, but if it takes twice as long to train or produce them, why bother!


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## JRR (8 February 2010)

Well he was clearly trainable enough to qualify for the Bundeschampion in ALL THREE phases, so I wouldn't discount him too much on that score. 

It takes two to make a foal and arguably the mare has more influence.


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## Heartbreaker (8 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
It takes two to make a foal and arguably the mare has more influence. 

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean like it took 2 people to lead him whilst ridden to the arena for the stallion parades last summer?  Having previously been lunged extensively.  Yes, I see where you are coming from


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## Diggory (8 February 2010)

It doesn't matter how talented his owner and fans make him out to be:  he was a nutjob at Twemlows and at stallion parades.  I didn't like the twist in his forelimb or his dreadfully collapsed feet too, although maybe he'd had a rubbish farrier to cause the latter.  There really ought to be more achievers out there by him by now, if his stock are cutting the mustard.  Looking the part isn't enough - you need the brains, the trainability and the desire to work with a rider too.


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## madmare22 (8 February 2010)

Just because they are hot/sharp doesnt mean they are not trainable. I think his dressage results at the moment are speaking for themselves, he really isnt that old to be winning at PSG, which suggests he is trainable. I am sure that you are aware, as a 6 year old he made history by being the only horse to qualify for the finals in all three disciplines, surely this shows his trainability and alos versatility.

My best mare, as judged by many people who know a great deal more than me and perhaps even you is one of the hottest horses i know. I am no professional, in fact i would say no more than average, but managed to train her to PSG too. 

I have bred from her and even with a hot stallion her foals have been really laid back.

When i went to see him, he was well mannered, stood up nicely, walked and trotted in a mannerly way in hand, his handler spoke highly of him and his attitude. So what, at shows he has been seen to be lunged before the rider gets on. Big deal, i have seen some mares and geldings that have to be lunged before ridden, and not particularly special horses at that. 

Sadly my mare lost the foal she was carrying by him but hey ho we can try again this year.

There are those that like him and those that dont. i like him. He is well put together, has 3 good paces and seems to be getting the results required. 

I would advise the OP to go and see him in the flesh to get a feel for themselves. He is much more blood type in the flesh than i expected.


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## madmare22 (8 February 2010)

Just in response to your post Diggory, I saw him twice at Twemlows and he wasnt a nut job when i saw him. I also watched him quite often on their stalcam, i like to see how they behave in their boxes and he seemed quite calm even though he had quite a busy covering season.


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## S_N (8 February 2010)

And the stock are where?  With the MASSIVE books this horse is supposed to have had and considering he is SO amazing, you'd expect to have heard far more about his progeny, esp considering the meek wallflower that promotes him.  Unless of course his fertility is questionable or that a large number of his stock aren't cutting the grade for some reason or other.  A handful of good horses doesn't really cut it, statistically speaking.  I also find it interesting as to why he was allowed to escape the net, if he is such a wonder horse - the continentals don't let their best horses go!


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## Eothain (9 February 2010)

People said Cruising was hot and that his stock were unrideable. They're nothing of the sort.

The stallion Errigal Flight has spent most his life with a bit in his mouth because he'd literally take your arm off. His owner is missing several fingers. ... His stock aren't wicked though!


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## koeffee (9 February 2010)

Unfortunatlly this horse and any other associated with kr will always have there lovers and haters.which is a shame. If you like the horse go and see for yourself.


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## henryhorn (9 February 2010)

Keoffee my response was nothing whatsoever to do with whoever owns the stallion mentioned, it's my personal opinion based on breeding over a number of years.
Madmare you must agree that a hot temperament makes training more difficult and slower in many cases, so why would you want to give yourself that extra problem to start with! 
You have been lucky if you put a hot mare to a similar stallion, it's a chance I wouldn't risk.
We took a long time to arrive at our present combination, a proven jumping line put to a stallion who's mother competed at top level and who's sire has produced a similar mare in the BE rankings. 
His temperament and trainability was a prime factor, and the proof is that the same comments keep coming back from the offsprings' new owners and trainers who all state the youngstock are talented and so easy to ride they can go in whatever discipline the owners want.
It was pointed out to me the other day by a former Badminton rider that in the Uk there are thousands of horse owners, of those a small number want top flight horses and don't mind problems such as being hot, the majority want sane, trainable horses who do reasonably well at all three disciplines, so why would anyone then go for breeding for the minority? (especially if your foal may be a difficult ride?)
Sorry to be highjacking your enquiry OP, but to me temperament has to be a major factor in choosing a stallion which is why I responded.


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## Halfstep (9 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
People said Cruising was hot and that his stock were unrideable. They're nothing of the sort. 

[/ QUOTE ]

A fair number of his stock are definitely "professional's" horses mind - and even when he was at his very best (no horse had as good a natural jump as Cruising IMHO) he was a really tricky ride with a dirty stop. When the ride went from Trevor Coyle (who had an amazing relationship with that horse) even Eddie Macken couldn't get a tune out of him. 

I know nothing about Grafenstolz but have seen him once at a show under Liz D and liked what I saw.  I wouldn't have said he was particularly hot for a dressage horse either........


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## KIMBY (9 February 2010)

Welcome everyones opinion i have become very interested in blood lines of late . The mare in question is a warmblood very laid back easily trained but not brilliant confirmation so will go and have a look at Graf along with others. However have another mare who is only four Carpaccio/Caretino who is a little hot head when you get her working well goes brilliantly and so clever in her jumping but did not expect her to be so sharp would you have expected this Henryhorn ?


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## madmare22 (9 February 2010)

Actually henryhorn, in general i have found that it is easier to train a sharp horse as they seem to 'get it' quicker, and once they do 'get it' they remember it. Whe i was younger and braver i used to reschool TBs that were too slow for racing and i always found the sharper hotter ones easier.


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## henryhorn (9 February 2010)

You're very lucky to have that talent madmare, the majority of us prefer slightly saner rides!
I agree some sharp horses learn quickly, but my description of hot is a horse who gets over excited in company or at comps not when being trained. 
There is nothing quite so frustrating as a horse who will produce a sub 20 test at home only to blow it in public.
Having had my daughter working in the eventing/dressage worlds I was shocked to see the lengths some of the riders had to go to, horses would be lunged for hours before they left home, lunged the same at the venue etc, in order to get those good dressage marks.
No matter how quick a learner a horse may be, to have to go to those extremes to win is an unecessary time waste, hence my desire to breed it out of our stock.
We bred a super horse at one point who would have been a fabulous competition horse had he not been unable to cope with the stress of comps. We sold him to a hunting home, and his dam too, as no way would I want anyone to have the heartbreak of seeing such talent be unusable  (he actually went through two professional's yards afterwards, both of whom gave up like us)
It's so much easier to choose at least one half that is a trainable ride than end up with a horse no-one wants after all the expense involved.
Kimby sorry I know virtually nothing about bloodlines other than those I have used over the years, so can't help you there, but I'm sure more knowledgeable people than me on here can.


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## druid (9 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
 People said Cruising was hot and that his stock were unrideable. They're nothing of the sort. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

I wishthe Cruising's I've ridden were anything like the ones you've encountered - hot, buckers and spooky sums them up for me. I've ridden some of his best stallion sons too


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## hettie123 (9 February 2010)

Just a query, but how much influence does genetics have on temperament?  I had two mares out of the same laid back mare by the same laid back stallion.  They were born a year apart and had the same owner.  The first is an absolute fruit case and the second is so laid back.  Can a stallion with a good temperament still throw a foal who is a little quirky?  Sorry, getting the thread rather off topic!


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## Eothain (9 February 2010)

Yeah they're tricky but when you see the amount of them performing at the top level, they can't have temperaments that are so bad. Professionals horses? Yes. But breeding is all about aiming for the top and when most inevitably don't make it, having an outlet for them.
He has more horses than any other stallion every week in grand prixs in Ireland and he sired an Olympic eventing team gold medallist.
Lets not forget, he has relatively few foals for a horse of his age. He only has about 1200 registered foals.
They can't be as bad as people make out. Yes they are tricky but thats acceptable. The really bad ones are an exception imho.
Plus, he's the whole reason I got into this business. My family were steeped in horses for generations but Cruising made me want to get involved. Why?
Because simply put, He is the absolute very best of all time.


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## S_N (9 February 2010)

Eothian, you arguing perfectly in support of my argument regarding the stallion to whom this post pertains.  

However, I think we will have to agree to disagree about breeding being all about aiming for the top.  Such a small percentage of horses make that grade, that the ones that don't, need an alternative career.


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## henryhorn (9 February 2010)

When we bought our original stallion, the dealer who imported him from Ireland had found him for a friend who had specifically asked him to find a bloodline that would produce jumpers. When she sold him she said few people recognised the line, but that she trusted the dealer absolutely.
His sire was Knock Boy, who sired Seacrest himself a Grade A, who sired Crusing. 
We never took our chap that far because running several businesses took up most of our time, but he without doubt possessed a phenomenal jump and had several professionals clamouring to buy him more than once. 
I would agree with the comment that line can be difficult to ride, now and then you get one that is excitable and in the hands of a numpty would be a nightmare, but all jump boldly and effortlessly which is why they do so well.
You only have to look at Cruising's stallion sons to see they are too producing talented youngsters, I always plough through the eventing results and there are loads of Cruising or relations always competing. 
I can recognise them without being told too, they have a sort of "Look at me!" which catches your eye.
I asked one rider at an event who her horse was by as she rode past having suspected it was by Cruising, and her comment was that it was the sort of horse that made you weep and shout for joy, which is pretty typical I would say, they can be very frustrating but on days when they excell, boy do they give you a high...!


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## Eothain (9 February 2010)

I am? Cool! Has this Grafenstolz horse covered many mares? How old is he?

Kimby, if you like the horse use him but be cautious. Turn the foal into money as soon as you can.

Is there a Sport Horse sales in Britain? If there is a foal sales, bring it there. That way if the foal becomes a problem, it'll be someone elses problem and you'll have your money. At this stage though it'll probably be spent on putting your Carpaccio mare in foal to Cruisings Micky Finn!!!


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## Heidiham (9 February 2010)

Kimby I have 2 Grafenstolz babies. The oldest is rising 4 and backed and I couldn't be more pleased with her in temperament, trainability and correctness. Don't be put off. Go and see the stallion and make up your own mind 
	
	
		
		
	


	




.

First prelim last Dec:













and a little more recently scoring a few 8s and a 9. We like a red rosette! 
	
	
		
		
	


	








:







A little more here:

http://www.towerequine.co.uk/index.php/events/sponsorship.html


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## Alec Swan (9 February 2010)

henryhorn,

I'm not too sure how to do "quotes", but considering your last post,  I'd be interested to hear who could argue with that!  

Breeding horses is a complex business,  and I suspect that those who lack experience rely on theory,  and my following comment may well support that argument!

I really do think that he's some horse,  and if his owner would agree to NFNF,  then yes,  I'd take the risk!

Alec.


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## druid (9 February 2010)

I didn't say that the trickness wasn't acceptable, to a professional. You suggested they weren't hot - they most certainly are in general but a hot horse will react that that bit quicker in the ring which is useful. 

As to Crusings Mickey Finn...I'd choose Ringfort Cruise for most mares unless they lacked quality if I wanted to use a Cruising son. MF doesn't have quite the same WB canter as Rf got from his Nimmedor dam line


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## Eothain (9 February 2010)

So would I. I just used Micky Finn as an example because he's in Britain whereas Ringfort is here. Hsving said that, I'd  still use Micky Finn. I've a Duca Di Busted x Laughtons Flight mare due a candle lit dinner with him sometime!

As for the hotness, I wouldn't call it that. I prefer to call it 'character'


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## magic104 (10 February 2010)

The poor stallion does seem to be taking an awful lot of credit for temperment.  A stallion produces a lot more offspring then the mare, therefore it seems a lot easier to blame the stallion for temperment issues.  The genetic makeup comes from both parents &amp; the foal spends his first 5mth at least with the dam.  The dam might have a good even temper, but perhaps it is her ancestors that were hot or difficult.

When full siblings can be so different I think we need to look at the individuals &amp; the breeding of them rather then just say that stallion's offspring have difficult temperments.  I am not saying the trait is never from the sire, just think it is too easy to always blame them.  I remember a show jumper back in the 70's making a comment about KOD's offspring being a challenge at times, but very talented.  No one seemed to look at the dams breeding.


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## druid (10 February 2010)

Character.....I like the PR use there!


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## Baydale (10 February 2010)

Straying somewhat from the OP, all this assumes that those hot/sharp offspring have been meticulously and thoughtfully produced by sympathetic, educated riders. Nature or nurture? 

We've got a mare in foal to Graf. I visited him at Twemlows and he was lovely in the stable, even though it was teatime. I also saw him at Bramham where he looked fresh, but it's not that long ago that he was eventing so maybe he was hoping that was what he was there for! 

If our Graf foal doesn't turn out to be the competition horse that I'd like for myself, I feel confident that I will be able to find it a suitable home. Sometimes the black and white attitude in this part of the forum can appear rather patronising to small/hobby breeders like myself.


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## henryhorn (10 February 2010)

In reply to your observation Magic having been able to observe many foals to five years old I think foal's character's are born not made. The actual behaviour of their dam seems to have nothing whatsoever to do with how they behave , though the dam's own temperament seems to pass on regardless of which stallion is used.
We tend to breed the same mares to the same stallion and two of the mares are full sisters, so it's interesting to see how different characteristics pass on.
One of the sister's offspring are always more laid back than the others, exhibiting exactly the same traits time and time again in each new foal.
Over the years we have bred the sisters to four different stallions, and all that happens is with a "hot" stallion the foal's from the sharper mare get hotter, and with a calm stallion the ones from the calmer sister get calmer.
So I agree the mare line has a great deal to do with things, and the stallion just emphasises traits already there.
As I said above, for our purposes we chose a calm stallion, as being "laid back" about everything from training to behaviour at comps is what most people prefer. 
Which is why I said originally, choosing anything with a hot reputation is not my own choice, though judging from the pics above of the lovely youngster, this particular stallion hasn't appeared to pass anything hot on in this case.


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## harrietltb (10 February 2010)

Regarding Grafenstolz's conformation:  Hilarious!  I'm sure the 13 studbooks in Europe who have approved Grafenstolz, including the Hanoverians, the University of Munich, not to mention the 800+ breeders worldwide who have used him are grateful to Diggory for having spotted the "twist in his forelimb and his dreadfully collapsed feet", all of which they have apparently missed!  Thank goodness for your eagle eyesight and expert opinion.  I'm sure the owner will have him put down asap!!!


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## madmare22 (10 February 2010)

alec, the breeing terms last year were live foal guarantee, i think this is more than reasonable, i assume although i will hold my hands up and say i do not know for definite that the same will be offered this season.


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## S_N (10 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Regarding Grafenstolz..... the 800+ breeders worldwide who have used him

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for this!  I had forgotten the numbers thrown around about how many people had used him - so I repeat - where are these youngsters?


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## madeleinewachman (10 February 2010)

I have to say that I have only met Graf on one occassion, he was in a lorry park with other horses in a head collar on a long lead eating grass, while dogs ran round his feet and people patted him. He seemed to have a wonderful nature and was very relaxed given the circumstances......

He then went into the lorry and stood quietly munching his hay!

Obviously he is not always going to be this laid back.... however from a competition horse and a stallion I would expect some spirit occassionally as surely it is this that we can then tap into if trained correctly that enabled him to perform well Eventing and now at PSG level in dressage.

We also don't know the circumstances prior to the lunging instance that henryhorn refers to. We ask a LOT of stallions, not only have they to perform at the highest level, but those that are breeding often end up perhaps not getting the turn out they would otherwise do. One minute we are asking them to cover, next to perform at the highest level and in the mean time they might be spending much of there time in a stable or on a lorry. 

I would be really surprised if a stallion wasn't a little hot headed in the circumstances.....

I appreciate that different people are going to have different views and be lookingfor different things from a stallion. The wonderful thing is there are so many different stallions to choose from, that really is there any need to slate a very talented stallion such as Graf just becuase it's not what you are looking for.


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## Diggory (10 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Regarding Grafenstolz's conformation:  Hilarious!  I'm sure the 13 studbooks in Europe who have approved Grafenstolz, including the Hanoverians, the University of Munich, not to mention the 800+ breeders worldwide who have used him are grateful to Diggory for having spotted the "twist in his forelimb and his dreadfully collapsed feet", all of which they have apparently missed!  Thank goodness for your eagle eyesight and expert opinion.  I'm sure the owner will have him put down asap!!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	









[/ QUOTE ]

No, not hilarious at all, Harriet, just as it was seen on the day.  I can't take any credit for spotting the problems as they presented themselves that day at all, as I happened to be with a top international judge, grader and evaluator at the time and they noticed them first.  But then, Harriet, as you feel you know far more than me, then perhaps you know far more than them as well.  I did say that I thought the feet issues may have been related to poor farriery after all, but as I'm not a farrier, perhaps I'm not allowed to make such suppositions?

What is actually more amusing is that you appear to have joined solely with the intention of replying to this thread, with all those statistics ready to spout.  It's quite obvious who you really are, and your unceasing arrogance is so very entertaining.  Keep it up, because those of us who know the true you will keep coming back at you!


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## magic104 (10 February 2010)

In reply to your observation Magic having been able to observe many foals to five years old I think foal's character's are born not made. - Now thats interesting because I read a study that said foals born to alpha mares tended to be bolder &amp; more assertive.

The foal is still two genetic make up of its parents therefore "foal's character's are born not made" will be made from both genes.  All I am saying is the mare should be looked at as well.  For one thing if she shares in her breeding a particular horse she will therefore pass on more genes from that line.  There is an interesting article in H&amp;R called Pedigree chums written by Dr Glynis Scot.


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## S_N (10 February 2010)

Magic, you arguing a point that no one is disagreeing with.


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## Eothain (10 February 2010)

Well this post sure has broken down to a good old fight!!!


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## Damien (10 February 2010)

A Colleague in Switzerland has been doing embryo transfer for over 15 years, using embryo's from his top **** jumping mares, when he first became involved with embryo transfer  the assumption would be to use "Franches Montagnes" brood  mares as surrogates, hardy, good dooers that have high milk yeild etc, however they observed that the foals were often too complacent in character and lacked the boldness energy and general outlook in life that is required to produce successful high acheiving sport horses. 

They now only use warmblood mares especially selected with the specific temepraments and characteristics that they wish to replicate. I don't know if there is any statistical evidence to support his theory but would certainly make an interesting study. This certainly supports the arguement that the mare strongly infuences the foals character and temperament during primary socialisation regardless of the inate characteristics that it may have inherited from its parents, male and female. It is also evident that all animals will be influenced during secondary socialisation, it will learn from its peer group and later on in life when it enters training.

We have for example one mare who is an "aloof" alpha mare whom we bred as a maiden, her first foal was, flightly, spirited, and not the easiest easy to work with. From the same combination of mating the following year we made a deliberate effort in getting in around her foal from birth with additional and persistant handling, she showed signs from the moment she was born of being "little miss independant" but by weaning she was very compliant in everything that we asked of her. This now gives me the confidence to use any stallion regardless of a "reputation" of being hot or difficult if all his other attributes tick the right boxes.

Jazz for example has a reputation for being hot headed, but in his stallion test report states  [ QUOTE ]
 likes to look at everything. Very willing to work and works well.  

[/ QUOTE ] We may find that his progeny inherit his characteristics but at the same time he has produced horses such as Parcival, Johnson, Wynton, Olivi and Riant all of whom are proving to have good rideability and a willing work ethic suitable for upper level sport. Cornet Obolenski and Clinton are another example of a line that is renown for hot headedness however their descendants acheivements are out weighing any negative critisism that they have received.

Hotness" is IMO often misinterpreted, an intellegent horse is often a horse that only becomes a problem when in the hands of the inexperienced as they are all too often fast learners and establish what they can do and get away with just as quickly as they learn compliance and conformism. An intellegent horse in the hands of the inexperienced is all too often a recipe for disaster but in the right hands may go all the way. 

Bearing this in mind Grafenstolz is proving to be a very popluar choice with mare owners in France having read several discussions about him, interestingly the posts about him all speak of his positive attributes and from those that do have foals by him all seem to speak very highly of them. One poster innocently posted is it me or does he appear to produce foals that lack top line and everyone repsonded its just you. It made me smile...... In addition to the comments that he has been approved by nearly every stud book in Europe, Yancey Farms will be distributing his semen in the US and for those that aren't aware of their status, they only stock and sell high profile stallions whom ascertain a strong position in the market place. 

Bearing in mind that the Trakehner is a blood type horse with a reputation of easy trainability that is widely used to refine and add stamina it seems logical that he will be a popular choice for event hunter jumper and breeders looking to add more blood into their program.

Look forwards to seeing this years foal crop by him, a beautiful blood type stallion with little to dislike about him.


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## volatis (10 February 2010)

I wish the rest of the British Isles agreed with your comment that[ QUOTE ]
 the Trakehner is a blood type horse with a reputation of easy trainability

[/ QUOTE ]
as most people in this country seem to think they are all lunatics much like the chestnut mare syndrome. 

Cornet Obolensky is one of my favourite stallions but it is well known in Germany that you just dont see his offspring in the hands of amateurs, they are Pro rides, as are Jazz offspring.

Its something breders have to factor in, if you are breeding for the pro market or the amateur market, or if you want to breed to a stallion known to through a 'professionals horse' then pick the mare even more carefully.

With reagrd to Grafenstolz, I would say he crosses better onto non-Trakehner bigger mares as the pure Trakehner offspring I have seen from him disappointed me (and that includes ones selected for Neumunster) so I would assume he needs a good big hunter mare, say like heidiham's mare.


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## magic104 (10 February 2010)

Magic, you arguing a point that no one is disagreeing with. - SN am I missing another point here because as far as Im concerned there was no arguing going on???  A point was made, a point was answered nothing more nothing less.  Dont go looking for something that is not there.


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## S_N (10 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Magic, you arguing a point that no one is disagreeing with. - SN am I missing another point here because as far as Im concerned there was no arguing going on???  A point was made, a point was answered nothing more nothing less.  Dont go looking for something that is not there. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

My point being that you seem to be repeating yourself, hence why I said that no one was arguing with your point about what the mare brings to the equation.


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## magic104 (10 February 2010)

In reply to your observation Magic having been able to observe many foals to five years old I think foal's character's are born not made. - Now thats interesting because I read a study that said foals born to alpha mares tended to be bolder &amp; more assertive.

The foal is still two genetic make up of its parents therefore "foal's character's are born not made" will be made from both genes. All I am saying is the mare should be looked at as well. For one thing if she shares in her breeding a particular horse she will therefore pass on more genes from that line. There is an interesting article in H&amp;R called Pedigree chums written by Dr Glynis Scot. 

Oh really, I thought I was answering the points made, as per the line - In reply to your observation Magic - My mistake obviously!


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## jamesmead (10 February 2010)

Hi-jacking the post a little;

 [ QUOTE ]
 alec, the breeing terms last year were live foal guarantee, i think this is more than reasonable 

[/ QUOTE ]


Given that a live foal is something that you absolutely CANNOT guarantee, what do studs offering these terms mean by this? 

If the mare doesn't take, or aborts, then I suppose you can try again? (Which is surely "no foal free return").

If she cannot take, or dies, or the stallion proves infertile and no foal ensues, I suppose you don't pay? (Which is "no foal no fee".) 

Or are you obliged to accept another stallion or provide another mare? (Which is a nuisance and probably not what you signed up for).

As for Graf; despite his good qualities, to my eye he has very long cannons and seems to pass this conformation on to a proportion of his offspring. I feel this is a fault and a weakness and it does put me off, given that he is aimed at the eventing market which demands soundness and toughness.


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## Alec Swan (11 February 2010)

James,

you've rather reinforced my point.

Regarding the stallion in question,  or any stallion of our choice,  for that matter,  it's continually being argued,  and quite rightly in my opinion,  by the more experienced that mare selection is vital.

It seems to me that when the progeny of a stallion have achieved awards,  then those accolades are claimed by the stallion owner.  When that same horse has those youngsters which fail to achieve their hoped for status,  then that was because of poor,  or inappropriate mare selection!  

For stallions,  it seems to be win win,  with little or no mention of the mare.  Whilst I wouldn't be so silly as to suggest that the stallion choice is an irrelevance,  I'm certain that we still attach an unbalanced level of emphasis in our plans.

Flying in the face of my argument,  I would still give the horse serious consideration.  His conformation faults?  I don't have an eye which is well enough practised,  but are we breeding show horses?  His faults haven't prevented him from having a competition career,  which those connected to him take a great deal of pride in,  and perhaps rightly so.

My one nagging doubt,  is that as a 12 year old horse,  I have yet to see what his progeny have achieved.

Alec.


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## magic104 (11 February 2010)

My one nagging doubt, is that as a 12 year old horse - What would you expect his eldest to be doing if for instance he covered at 2?  Though it does sound quiet on that front, but then not all horses breeding is available when looking at competition results.


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## cruiseline (11 February 2010)

But I would have thought that his owner, who is certainly not backwards in coming forwards, would have all of those statistics on hand to post on any thread that contained this horses name.

So what have his progeny been doing??? 

It's a simple question.


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## S_N (11 February 2010)

QR


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## seabiscuit (11 February 2010)

Taken from his website;-

Performances and Results offspring:
Many of his off-spring from his first crop of foals were awarded premiums in various breeding areas. With an average score of 8.2 for his first crop, he ranked number one of all stallions in Baden-Württemberg. The Baden-Württemberg Verband awarded him a premium as a young stallion. Throughout his career he his foal and young stock have received an above average number of premiums. His oldest offspring are now seven, he has already had a German Vice Champion, and this year Vincent and Gin Tonic will go to the World Championships at Le Lion dAngers


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## jamesmead (11 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
 but are we breeding show horses? His faults haven't prevented him from having a competition career, 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Well, we could be; he is a stallion with "presence" and a nice shoulder, neck and head carriage, which always helps. 

However, I am not personally aiming for something to show, which is why I would be particularly concerned about the long cannons. This is a durability issue, rather than an aesthetic one as long cannons predispose toward tendon injuries.

Yes, he did have an eventing career; but it was curtailed by injury; so its hard to know if this is a positive or a negative.


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## magic104 (11 February 2010)

Vincent and Gin Tonic will go to the World Championships at Le Lion dAngers - I think what people are getting at is that these are 2 out of how many hundred bred?  But if his eldest are only 7 I would have thought it could be early days to be dismissing him as a stallion not producing performance offspring.


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## eventrider23 (11 February 2010)

Neither of these two actually went though.


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## KIMBY (11 February 2010)

My original post has started quite a debate which i have read each day with interest and it is good to get different opinions you can learn a lot. I thought Heidihams youngsters are very smart looking and doing well in the dressage so he is certainly worth looking at. It is a shame i cannot get to the Expo this weekend but those who do go i am sure will have something to say about the good the bad and the ugly !


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## duchess69 (11 February 2010)

I have read a number of Live Foal Guarantees terms and they differ.  Seems to be try as often as you like over a couple of seasons and even if the mare aborts at birth in the first season you can have another go.
I don't see why everybody gets SO excited about the headline terms.  What I do is choose a stallion, speak to the owners, ask them for the terms I want and then negotiate.  We all do that in other areas of our lives like buying a car.  Would you buy a cheap one just because it gave you the most fantastic deal.  I will not choose a stallion purely on the terms.  
It sounds as if we all want "Live foal or your money back", which by the way I don't think is the same as NFNF as the NFNF terms I have seen do not give you unlimited attempts. but I do not expect the stallion owners to do something for nothing so I don't expect to pay them nothing if I don't get a foal.  I do think the term Live Foal Guarantee is misleading but you can't blame studs saying that if it is standard language.
Some of the big European studs have terms which I think are unfair to we mare owners but that doent stop us using them.  You pays your money and make your choice.


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## cruiseline (11 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Neither of these two actually went though. 

[/ QUOTE ]

So not a lot then ??


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## Alec Swan (11 February 2010)

duchess69,

whilst it's difficult to be precise on this point,  generally,  NFNF means that there will be a retention of the stud fee by the stallion owner,  usually about 25%,  in the event that the mare fails to produce a live foal.  NFNF means that you are given every opportunity,  for the initial year,  and so I understand,  the end of that year (season) is the cut off date.  It would be quite unfair,  I believe,  for a mare owner to expect the stud fee,  in total,  to be returned.  Stallion owners,  after all,  have their costs.

Our farrier had an in foal Danehill mare,  which whilst in foal,  had to be put down.  The stallion owners,  to their credit,  generously returned his stud fee,  in total.  I realise that this was an exceptional case.

NFFR,  again generally,  means that if your mare fails to hold,  then you can go back to them next year.  Some put a limit on just how many years,  or mares for that matter,  as to how far you can extend this.  

It would be unreasonable to expect stallion owners to carry the risk,  in its entirety.  That must be obvious to all.  

For myself,  and I suspect that I'm not alone in this,  if I were to send a known breeding mare to a stud,  and importantly,  she is a mare which has been checked by a competent vet who is experienced in the field of equine reproduction,  and then she STILL comes home empty,  I feel that stallion owners should accept some degree of responsibility.  For me that responsibility would equate to returning 75% of the stud fee.  NFFR in reality means,  that the stallion owner receives the stud fee,  in its entirety,  whether the mare's in foal or not.  Hardly an incentive for the less than scrupulous,  is it?  If I were to present a mare to a stud which has little chance of holding to a covering,  then I only have myself to blame.  

Never again will I agree to NFFR.

jamesmeade,  I accept that long cannon bones may well raise a doubt or two,  for your well reasoned arguments,  but it still wouldn't put me off,  but that's probably just me being perverse!  

If the horse in question,  is now 12 years old,  and his oldest offspring are now 7,  and assuming that he demonstrated enough promise as a youngster to keep him entire,  then I would be surprised to hear that he didn't cover a mare until he was 5 years of age.  It is of course,  entirely possible.  There are,  without doubt,  questions.

There are many owners of very good mares who've used the horse.  I would strongly suspect that the resistance to the horse himself,  is actually directed at the owner,  and that is very sad.  Given that I had a mare which would be suited by him,  then yes,  without any doubt.  

Alec.


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## S_N (11 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Our farrier had an in foal Danehill mare,  which whilst in foal,  had to be put down.  The stallion owners,  to their credit,  generously returned his stud fee,  in total.  I realise that this was an exceptional case. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Not unusual in the TB world!!


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## jamesmead (12 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
 I would strongly suspect that the resistance to the horse himself, is actually directed at the owner, and that is very sad.  

[/ QUOTE ] 
If the owner's behaviour re. the expo figures is a measure of the trust that can be placed in his sales pitch and statistics, then I think that a questioning of the horse's true value as a breeding animal is not surprising; if you don't trust what you are told because you don't trust the person telling you, then you are starting from scratch; you are looking for evidence that you CAN believe. The trouble with Graf is that the evidence is so contradictory; he is an attractive horse with question-marks. Trust is also an issue when it comes to the logistics of doing business, of course.

However, speaking for myself, and with all due respect to those people who do like and have used him, I think that Graf has long cannons and they would STILL be long cannons even if YOU owned him, Alec; and I STILL would not like them! 

Perhaps I should be grateful that I don't, therefore, even have to consider whether or not I can bear to do business with his owner!


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## Eothain (12 February 2010)

Who's his owner and why the problem?


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## mikebizz (12 February 2010)

Does he have any graded sons ???? always a good indication of his youngstock!!!


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## KIMBY (12 February 2010)

Eothian in answer to your question Grafs owner is Ken Rehill
i believe he is the one organising the Expo this weekend others will correct me if i am wrong. I do not know the man.
It would appear though that some on here do not like him for there own reasons i am sure.


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## magic104 (12 February 2010)

This one is listed as a stallion not sure if he is graded though
http://www.allevarecavalli.com/pedigree.php?horseid=485656


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## jamesmead (12 February 2010)

Oh, Eothain! Where to begin?....


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## volatis (12 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Does he have any graded sons ???? always a good indication of his youngstock!!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

The ones presented at Neumunster (Trakehner grading) the last few years havent graded. Not sure if he had one graded with the South German studbook or ZfDP or similar, but not absolutely sure


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## magic104 (12 February 2010)

Nothing about graded sonssss
The sire 

Grafenstolz TSF is one of the most interesting phenomens in modern warmblood breeding. Approved with a premium in Neumünster, he was sold at auction to South Germany and basically emerged in the 2004 season with Michael Jung in the saddle, competing at A and L levels in eventing. He is the first, and so far only horse in history to qualify for the Bundeschampionat in all three disciplines ini the same year - dressage, show jumping, eventing - and finally competed in eventing. He won that championship Gold medal with the highest score to date (9.2) and only a few months later in the same year, won the FEI World Championships for Young Event Horses in Lion d'Angers/France. Since then, Grafenstolz TSF is a firmly established CIC*** competitor, and as a breeding stallion, has become tremendously popular, also in other warmblood breeds. 

In 2007, a son out of his first crop won the Silver medal in the field of 5yr old eventers at the Bundeschampionat, and in 2008, no less than 3 of his offspring qualified for this prestigious event. As outstanding as this may seem, it is well-founded in an exceptional pedigree. Sire EH Polarion is an international Grand Prix dressage stallion for the UK (now stationed at Gestüt Webelsgrund) and the dam, SPS Gispy Lady, is also dam of the mare Gipsy Rose, a full sister to Grafenstolz. In 2007, Gipsy Rose managed to sent both the Champion stallion (Grand Passion) as well as his one year older sister Gipsy Flower II as the National Champion mare to Neumünster. The third dam Grazie II is dam of the ATA's Guy Laroche. The mare family of Gundula has also produced the important stallions Guter Planet and Guter Stern, among others.


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## Alec Swan (12 February 2010)

Magic,

very well done,  and thank you.

Alec.


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## KIMBY (12 February 2010)

Thank you magic very interesting.


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## Heidiham (12 February 2010)

Thank you for your comment Kimby.

I hesitate to post a vid of my lovely Graf 4 yr old on here - I don't want her pulled apart by anyone predisposed to dislike the stallion, his connections or his offspring 
	
	
		
		
	


	




. However Kimby it may be useful for you to see and on reflection I can take criticism. Bring it on!!!

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5340915/an/0/page/0#5340915


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## Alec Swan (12 February 2010)

Heidiham,

I'd be interested to hear what TYPE of mare did she come from?  Was she a TB,  was she a cob?  was she a competition horse?,  and yes I thought she looked to be a very nice youngster!!  

Anyway,  I wouldn't worry to much about what others think.  Whose horse is it?  It's yours,  and that's what matters.

Alec.


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## CILLA (13 February 2010)

A friend of mine has been to the Expo today was not over impressed with the organisation but did like Graf and said he jumped well and was behaved. Our Graf foal is due at end of May and if as nice as Heidihams will be pleased. Mare is a warmblood Zadok/ Nimmerdor very nice temperament .


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## Heidiham (13 February 2010)

Dam is by Welton Crackerjack out of a Hanoverian Verband approved head stud book (pure tb) mare. She was a master's horse with the Ledbury and trained to advanced medium dressage out of hunt season. Also won several hunt rides so a good alround hunt/competition mare 
	
	
		
		
	


	




.


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## Eothain (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, Eothain! Where to begin?.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

I take it that its a long story then!


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## htobago (31 March 2010)

S_N said:



			[ QUOTE ]
Our farrier had an in foal Danehill mare,  which whilst in foal,  had to be put down.  The stallion owners,  to their credit,  generously returned his stud fee,  in total.  I realise that this was an exceptional case. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Not unusual in the TB world!!
		
Click to expand...

Just came across this comment/thread while looking for something else. I am SO glad to hear this SN - that owners of top TB sires try to be fair and kind to mare owners. I think mare owners frankly get a rather raw deal under most of the usual stud terms.


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## BBH (31 March 2010)

Eothain said:



			People said Cruising was hot and that his stock were unrideable. They're nothing of the sort.
		
Click to expand...

I totally disagree with this. Tonight as it happens I am selling an unrideable Cruising/ Animo stunning looking useless horse for the princely sum of a £1 to a girl who has all the time and patience and youth on her side who thinks she can turn him around where all the professionals can't.


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## Bearskin (31 March 2010)

Eothain said:



			People said Cruising was hot and that his stock were unrideable. They're nothing of the sort.

The stallion Errigal Flight has spent most his life with a bit in his mouth because he'd literally take your arm off. His owner is missing several fingers. ... His stock aren't wicked though!
		
Click to expand...

I have an Errigal Flight mare.  She is lovely with people but eats other horses! The most mareish mare I have ever met.  But does that come from her damsire, Olympic Lux?


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## Eothain (31 March 2010)

Doubt it. I've a Windgap Blue x Horos mare here and she'd follow you around the yard like a dog. Put her beside another horse and she'd climb the walls to bite at it.

The woman I bought her completely spoiled her as a foal and yearling so I blame that.

Maybe your mare's mother was the dominant mare and now foally albeit grown up, is letting everyone know who's boss?


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## Bearskin (31 March 2010)

Think it is hormomal.  Bred and reared in Ireland, in a big commercial yard.  people who don't know her refuse to go in her box due to the kicking and biting of walls. Is actually very easy to deal with but will go to "kill" other horses unless she is in season. Luckily she is a good jumper!


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