# Competition Livery Prices



## Eventer2012 (25 December 2012)

Hi,

I was just wondering what people consider good value for competition livery? 

I am trying to be a professional event rider, aiming to ride/compete horses for paying owners...I am semi-professional, I work in racing to pay for my 3 event horses and currently have one livery. I have competed to intermediate and am aiming for YR teams in 2014 (2013 pending the right horse!), but have huge experience producing young horses from scratch to being successful/winning up to Intermediate BE/Foxhunter BS/Medium BD. 

To run my own horses/business successfully, the absolute minimum I can charge is £170 pw but really needs to be £180 pw and have at least four liveries for even this to be viable. I need to employ a groom but this is sort of included in this price in terms of my own costs...

This is at a top competition yard in Berkshire which I won't name but many will know it, with extensive facilities including a number of large outdoor arenas, with and without quality show jumps, fully lit international sized indoor, extensive xc course, outstanding on and off road hacking, flat schooling fields, steep hills, short hacks to local competitions and uphill gallops, onsite tuition, all year round daily turnout, rubber matting, big straw beds, good quality hay or haylage and so well located many other competitions are within 1 hour/1.5 hours drive etc.... 

My services would include feed, hay, daily turnout, mucking out, new bedding, riding, tack cleaning, grooming, tidying (mane pulling etc but not clipping), riding, competition preparation including plaiting etc... transport all arranged etc but charged on top and riding at competitions.

I was just wondering if this is an unrealistic price to be asking? I gather that professionals charge £200-£250 pw plus charge riding fees at competitions..but I may be wrong with this....plus I'm not yet a top professional!

Just be interested to hear people's thoughts....

Thank you for your time 

And happy christmas!!


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## dressage_diva (25 December 2012)

I'm moving my horse in January to a top event yard and full livery including exercise (not necessarily by the events, could be working pupil), but not competing is £185pw. That's in Oxfordshire (can PM you details if you're interested).

Personally I reckon you could afford to charge more for competition livery considering where you are based in the UK.


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## mtj (26 December 2012)

Ok, overheard in local pub (near major venue).  Well they were very loud (braying), so I couldn't help hearing sat on next table.

Very well known dressage rider mentioned as training livery at £300 per week.

Moral of this story is that pubs in horsey areas may have other horsey clients, even if you don't know them......


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## Ferdinase514 (26 December 2012)

£250 all in would be about right.


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## christine48 (26 December 2012)

A top professional could maybe charge in excess of £200 PW, but the people we know charge between £140 - £175 PW. These would be riders who have ridden at 3 & 4* eventing, but are not of the calibre of the very top riders who I'm sure can charge well over £200.


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## rotters13 (26 December 2012)

I paid 160 for a competition livery with a 4 star event rider! In Oxfordshire as well.


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## charlimouse (26 December 2012)

A pro near me (has ridden at 4*) charges £40 per day. This includes all care, riding, tack cleaning etc, but you have to pay extra for the rider to compete the horse and obvously competition entries, shoes, vet fees, travel costs on top. Another pro near me has competed at 2* level and charges £120 per week, care, riding etc included. She charges £30 to compete the horse in a ODE, plus travel costs. Owner pays entries, shoes ect.


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## Erin (26 December 2012)

I'm in Berks, and full livery (so all mucking out, turn out/catch in, hay, bedding, tack cleaning, and exercise 5x a week) on a yard with good facilities is £180-£200 a week so I think you're in the right price bracket.


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## HammieHamlet (26 December 2012)

I'm in Kent and always thought the going rate was roughly £20 per day for competition livery? That's not with big famous names but with very good riders who have ridden at 4*. I've also never paid extra for riding at competitions? Doesn't that defeat the point of being on competition livery?!


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## Mel85 (26 December 2012)

We are based nr Salisbury and OH has competed to 4* level we charge £170pw no extra charged for riding at competitions but obviously entries, shoes and mileage on top of livery.


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## Eventer2012 (26 December 2012)

Hi  thanks for everyone's opinions, really appreciate it, I think for the stage I'm at at the moment it sort of average's about right, and the actual yard and facilities are definitely worth more than a yard with just a 20x40 outdoor, a few road hacks and no turnout, whoever is riding... Plus just re-read my post and it looks like I'm intending to charge for riding at competitions - I should have made it clearer, that's included in the cost!


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## olop (26 December 2012)

I'm Essex based and a pro rider near to us charges £250 a week for all of what you are offering plus includes competing costs including transport (not entry fees) they were on the olympic team.
I used to be berks based and livery prices here are kind of similar (full livery here is around the (£100-£125 a week mark)


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## popsdosh (27 December 2012)

Eventer2012 said:



			Hi  thanks for everyone's opinions, really appreciate it, I think for the stage I'm at at the moment it sort of average's about right, and the actual yard and facilities are definitely worth more than a yard with just a 20x40 outdoor, a few road hacks and no turnout, whoever is riding... Plus just re-read my post and it looks like I'm intending to charge for riding at competitions - I should have made it clearer, that's included in the cost!
		
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I am struggling with the logic of the owner paying more for better facilities! Surely you as a rider are taking on the responsibilty to produce results from my horse the only thing that the improved facilities do is make your job easier so that is a cost thats down to you.There are lots of riders trying to do what you are doing and finding that they have to charge a good bit less than you are proposing to fill their yards.If you are seriously intending to do this I would start in a part of the country where your overheads are lower to start with so you can charge 20/30 quid less.Its all to well having state of the art facilities but no good if you price yourself out of the market. Talking as an owner who does have horses with riders I certainly would not be spending £180/wk with a rider that is inexperrienced!! I try to support young riders but would never even consider one with such a high cost as you are proposing.


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## SpottedCat (27 December 2012)

Afraid I agree with Popsdosh - when I had a horse with a pro it cost me a good deal less than £170/£180 a week, and that was with someone with a record at 3*. I don't see why people would take the risk at that price when they can either spend less and send to a 4* rider or £20 a week more and send to a top pro!


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## millitiger (27 December 2012)

Your price seems high to me; good, solid 3***/4**** riders around here charge around £150/week.
Top 4**** riders (on teams etc) charge around £200-220/week.

For someone competing at Intermediate level, I would expect to pay under £150/week.


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## ElleJS (27 December 2012)

Echo above!! As someone who started doing the EXACT thing 2 years ago, there is a small chance you will get clients at 200pw (unless you have an inside connection) good luck if you do seriously hats off! I charge 150pw, I've got decent facilities and top location 5mins from M40 (good walker, massive flood lit school, good hacking, gallops, not posh but workable indoor stable yard, turnout, lunge pen, hot hose down area, its a bit agricultural (ermm on a farm!!) which isnt my ideal fantasy but does the job, infact my liveries love it as the youngsters are bombproof in a week!!! sadly i dont have parents with a yard so renting is going to be my only hope but I needed to keep my overheads low so I sacrificed a mega yard I first went too so that I could charge competitive prices and that is the only reason I can make it pay!! I have just finished all my finances for last year and had i stayed at the mega posh yard there was NO way I could have done it. Top top professionals round me are desperate for full liveries let alone lowly me! I ride at 3* and have been lucky enough to get to Badminton and Burghley age 21 but it means nothing to an owner if they have a choice of a young rider or a 'name' charging the same. Sadly that is reality I found out the hard way as for a couple of months when I was at super posh yard I was barely making any money, now I have a wait list and lovely loyal clients  I would love a yard like the one you have got but having tried it for a couple of months I was living in a fantasy world but  Your circumstance may be different to mine. 
My parents don't pay for me (my dad runs the lorry though which is so amazing and im very lucky) and I have a house with my husband so I actually have to make money unlike quite a few of my peers at the same level that can do it via bank of mum or dad. No problem with that though- I would if I could!!! 


Also some things I found out on my journey- Some clients are VERY VERY VERY difficult and demanding!  BUT you have to smile and go out of your way for them as that is your job, you will get all sorts of liveries- NEVER turn them down even if they're not shiny event horses, you will be bottom of the food chain in your area so take all clients on with the same gusto as a 4* event horse, treat every horse with as much care and attention as your own. that is crucial. Remember an owner can take the horse away whenever they want and you have to pay your rent. employing people is a minefield sometimes they don't show up on the day you have 10 in and have to leave for an event at 4am!! Good ones get snapped up by the top pros offerong more money! I still cant afford a full time girl so i muck out 8 before i start riding most days which is pretty hard but my mum helps me on her days off so very lucky there too. 
Insurance and paper work is a full time job on top of a full time job!! 
However it is amazing when you find your feet!! My horses, girls and clients are awesome but taken me 2 years to breathe and dare I say relax. Loads of luck hope it all falls into place! I will be very envious if you get clients at £200 pw though hehe!!


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## dressage_diva (27 December 2012)

millitiger said:



			Your price seems high to me; good, solid 3***/4**** riders around here charge around £150/week.
		
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But that's less than I pay for full livery including exercise in the nearby area to where the OP is looking.  Surely therefore competition livery should be more expensive? Sorry, I'm not trying to say you're wrong, just that I can't understand why full exercise livery is more expensive than the competition livery (and I know my yard isn't the only place that charges that amount!).


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## millitiger (27 December 2012)

dressage_diva said:



			But that's less than I pay for full livery including exercise in the nearby area to where the OP is looking.  Surely therefore competition livery should be more expensive? Sorry, I'm not trying to say you're wrong, just that I can't understand why full exercise livery is more expensive than the competition livery (and I know my yard isn't the only place that charges that amount!).
		
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Only saying what prices I know people charge 

This is 7-8 different riders in great eventing areas (some in the Cotswolds, some in Gloucs/Worcs/Warks), all with good facilities/competition centres/motorway links and events close by.

If I was going to pay £180-200/week for my horse to be produced, I would be going for the rider who has produced numerous horses to 4****/championship level over the young rider who has ridden to Intermediate (assuming I thought they would suit my horse/ my needs yada yada)


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## 1t34 (27 December 2012)

ElleJS said:



			treat every horse with as much care and attention as your own. that is crucial. Remember an owner can take the horse away whenever they want and you have to pay your rent. 
However it is amazing when you find your feet!! My horses, girls and clients are awesome but taken me 2 years to breathe and dare I say relax. Loads of luck hope it all falls into place! I will be very envious if you get clients at £200 pw though hehe!!
		
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This - not in your area but full training/competition livery with renowned trainers who used to compete internationally, used to cost me just short of 900 pounds a month. Very experienced and successful at producing young horses, with large indoor, massive outdoor with a course set at all times. However your horse imho tends not to be treated as an individual. You would be much better to stress what Elle SJ notes, the care and attention. Additional support being offered at shows or events can be an extra good selling point and income source for riders that compete themselves.


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## TarrSteps (27 December 2012)

Two separate points. . .

One, to ESJ's point about facilities, a less than super posh place can actually be a bit if an advantage, as it can weed out some of the 'difficult' clients at the door. Of course fantastic facilities will also attract some people but not always, in my experience, the sort you necessarily most value when you are finding your feet.

Re comparison between competition livery vs a full service livery yard - it is actually more expensive often to run the latter. Things like staff available to tack up anytime (rather than on a set schedule), providing staff after hours, running arena lights into the evening etc can be more labour intensive and costly than having a working student or two to tack up etc for one or two people who ride mostly during daylight hours. The cost of the rider's time is actually a tiny fraction of the payout and most riders actually supplement with clinics etc. Having the staff etc to satisfy a large number of riders is actually more costly.


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## Eventer2012 (27 December 2012)

Thank you for everyone's opinions, I'm just interested to see what people think is realistic before I go ahead and actually set the prices. Sorry I did write that last quote quite quickly - obviously I didn't literally mean whoever is riding!  

I have just found that coming from a background of trying to produce horses with virtually no riding facilities, having everything on site is hugely beneficial for the training of the horse to see/do something different every day... I do agree it does make my job easier and certainly is far less frustrating and stressful on a daily basis - but that in itself is a good thing for the horses. 

I personally would be prepared to pay more to ensure my horse could go out every day, have the chance to practice jumping in an indoor arena before it went competing in an indoor arena for the first time, train in many different spooky surroundings without having to travel anywhere and go XC schooling at minimal cost whenever necessary, surely saving money on school/XC hire and transport?

And surely you would an advantage over someone of the same riding standard who hadn't had a chance, for example, to school regularly on a grass open space before the first event of the season?

Just an opinion...I may well be wrong... and I appreciate the experience and ability of the rider as a training rider as much as a competition rider does play a big part in this.

Like many others, I have worked so hard to fund where I currently am (renting a few boxes on a yard rather than an entire yard!) and absolutely love it  but there is a long way to go!

Thank you for everyone's views and advice, I really appreciate it


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## FrodoBeutlin (27 December 2012)

Young but very talented 4* eventer, has done 2 Olympics on 2 different horses (doing very well both times!), based in the Cotswolds, was charging £140pw last year for competition livery...very experienced rider & absolutely charming person with a lovely yard.


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## SO1 (27 December 2012)

I think the difference between full and competition livery is that sometimes the competition livery can get away with offering less smart facilities as the owners are not going to be riding themselves and wanting to use an indoor school if it is raining or want off road hacking or all want their horses exercised or ready for riding at the same time for example weekends or evenings so there is more flexibility.

I would expect that if my horse was on competition livery there would be at least two people around I would want to ensure that my horse if not going to a competition was not left alone for long days as well as people not being so tired that they can't do the job properly.

I don't think the area premium for competition livery is the same as it is for normal livery as if clients are not riding the horse themselves don't necessarily need the horse to be near where they live. TBH if someone was not interested in visiting their horses all the time then I can't see why they would not send their horse to a cheaper part of the country if they could get the same service elsewhere but cheaper because they are outside the expensive counties. You are therefore not competing  just with competition yard in your area but also ones through the country which is very different from full livery which will only be competing for business with other full livery yards in the area!


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## TarrSteps (27 December 2012)

E2012, I completely agree the facilities are a huge bonus and should, ideally, allow you to provide a better, possibly less expensive service than someone who has to pay separately. (Although schooling off site is essential, too.) If you are able to rent boxes at a rate that allows you to still charge a countrywide rate then that's brilliant. I think ESJ's point was that she could not (my experience has been similar). And that at the lower end of the market you may be outbid by people who can offer a better deal. You could argue you will produce better horses for clients in the long run but will have to prove that. 

Do you have to pay for boxes you don't fill? That can be ruinous so has to be budgeted for. Do you have to cover your own horse's costs? I actually found when I first had my own place I could not afford to run one of my own and needed every box to be earning, as I was competing with people based on family farms or with parental support or similar. I could not run my business the way they did!


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## TarrSteps (27 December 2012)

Competitive not countrywide! Although both apply.


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## TarrSteps (27 December 2012)

I would also say, if your selling point is you will NOT be charging fees that are standard elsewhere, make sure you promote that point. People will not necessarily do in depth research to compare prices. So if similar riders around you are charging lower rates, make sure people understand that you will be competitive in the long run.


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## dominobrown (28 December 2012)

ElleJS and Tarrsteps- You are full of useful advice for setting up a yard! I am going to have to quiz you at a later date


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## TarrSteps (28 December 2012)

The voice of bitter experience, I suspect. 

I'd say the hardest part of running a horse business is being honest about it as a business. We all do this because we love it and horse people tend to be opportunistic (or delusional, depending on your point of view ) so it's easy to plan for everything going just the way we want. Most of the people I know who've lasted though (not counting people who are heavily subsidised - which is often the case even when it isn't obvious) learn to be both very conscientious, as EJS stresses, but also quite hard headed and careful with their time, energy and money.


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## TarrSteps (28 December 2012)

Optimistic! Doh.


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## humblepie (28 December 2012)

My comment would be that if a business owner is paying rent or a mortgage, business costs and taxes, paying staff properly etc, etc and looking to make a living out of it, £150 a horse per week is cheap.  Often yards will be relying upon unpaid labour be it working pupils, family or friends so as to be able to subsidise a lower rate than would they really should be charging if being run as a profitable business.


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## TarrSteps (28 December 2012)

I think that's our point, humblepie.  In fact the market often won't bare a 'strictly business' set up as the prices would be beyond what owners consider 'reasonable'.


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## popsdosh (28 December 2012)

humblepie said:



			My comment would be that if a business owner is paying rent or a mortgage, business costs and taxes, paying staff properly etc, etc and looking to make a living out of it, £150 a horse per week is cheap.  Often yards will be relying upon unpaid labour be it working pupils, family or friends so as to be able to subsidise a lower rate than would they really should be charging if being run as a profitable business.
		
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Maybe not enough however as an owner if you had a choice of somebody at £200/wk or £150/wk which would you choose.I still think the OP is placing to much enthasis on the facilities as to me if you have an indoor school or not makes no difference.You are as the rider paid to do a job and it is a competetive market out there. I know of one very good local rider that does it at £120/wk but they are on a family farm so can do it. However these are the people the OP will be competing with.A lot of riders go into this thinking its going to be easy it is bloody hard work and the ones who really make it work have to become very hard faced and business savvy very quickly and you end up having to take horses you really dont want.A very high profile rider has built up a very successful buisness now from very humble begginings but you cannot do that without treading on toes and so has a mixed reputation should we say.What I can say when I had a horse with them,they were nothing but honest with me about everything which goes a long way in my books.


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## humblepie (28 December 2012)

TS - I agree that owners have unrealistic expectations and often should expect to pay more.   I know racing is an industry whereas eventing is not as such but compare the costs of training a racehorse against eventing and you can see why racing is the industry with the wage agreement in place for staff.   I think an average figure of keeping a horse in training is currently is £16000 -£18000 p.a.  Again fully appreciate racing has serious prize money but there are a lot of horses that win nothing.

I appreciate I have strayed from the OP's post and will now go back into hiding.

OP - good luck with your venture.


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## humblepie (28 December 2012)

Popsdosh - I agree with everything you say and that is the difficulty that anyone starting up who has to pay rent etc will be competing for business against someone with few bottom line costs.  It also depends I suppose on whether it is a business to make a decent living or a business to enable the rider to have horses to compete.


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## popsdosh (28 December 2012)

I am afraid to say however you wrap it up Humblepie most owners within BE cannot and will not run horses at such a high cost and those that can will not pay that sort of money to an inexperienced rider when you can send it to the top riders and most of them are not bursting at the seams with horses.


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## popsdosh (28 December 2012)

sorry HP cross posted!!


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## TarrSteps (28 December 2012)

I would say to the OP, you have to charge what you have to charge. There is no sense setting up an unsustainable situation. I don't know how well supported you are so have no idea of your margins but I do know a couple of people (in another country) who were only able to give up occasional part time work even they reached 4* level! And both still do a lot of teaching. I do know it's easier to make a living riding here , relatively speaking - but I know more than one rider who also, say, works in a pub to make ends meet.,

I'm not saying this to be unhelpful, quite the opposite. When you're starting a business it's useful to know how your competitors are operating and what, comparatively, you have to sell.


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## popsdosh (28 December 2012)

Agree with TS it is very easy to have a romantic view of the whole idea ,however the ones who make it are the realists and keep control of every cost.A lot will depend on what your per/box cost are up front for example if paying £25 plus you are already disadvantaged.


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## Worried1 (28 December 2012)

We don't event so slightly different market but we charge £185/week there is no extra payment for competing (owners pay transport costs or take horses for us) but Mr W keeps any prize money. Mr W has previously evented up to intermediate and did ponies etc before concentrating on dressage. He has won a national title and been to the nationals several times as well as the regionals up to AM. He has competed upto Int 1. Of course we would like to charge more but we could out price ourselves, and realistically he's not a 'big' name (yet ) so we need to stay competitive in the current market.

We have very good facilities (waxed surface, solariam, cctv, alarmed yard etc but no indoor school). We try and set ourselves apart from others doing similar things by having a USP, ours is attention to detail and high standards of care. Most people joke their horses and equipment leave cleaner than they arrived! Also mr W does ALL the riding with me doing some hacking and groundwork, that's opposed to some yards who charge a fortune and put Anyone on.

It's a buoyant market with quiet periods but generally we are full and have wonderful supportive owners.


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## imr (28 December 2012)

I would echo the points above about the difference between taking a horse to produce and having a full livery client who you exercise during the week - the latter will care more about a smart yard, lighting and location etc and will pay the premium to be in a more expensive part of the country eg near london, the former less so, so I think you need to decide whether you are just looking for the former or for both as that will influence what you can charge and whether the smart yard is the right place to start. That said, I agree you need decent facilities as otherwise it becomes difficult to do what you are trying to do.


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