# Long-term effect of malnutrition as a pup?



## Possum (10 March 2015)

Bit of an odd question, I know.

So it's just over a year now that we took in a little stray we'd found wandering in the rain one dark evening. The vet guessed she was about 5 months old. 
When we found her she was painfully thin - her ribs and pelvis were jutting out, she was literally a bag of bones.
The vet said that she was healthy, and certainly we've not seen anything in her behaviour to suggest that's not the case. She has been spayed and pre-op bloods showed no issues. We fed her carefully, she put on weight but she's still very much at the lower end of 'normal' weight, despite the fact that we feed more than the recommended quantities of a decent food (and she s**ts for Britain!!).

She's back to the vets for her booster tomorrow, and I'm wondering whether its worth mentioning - on the one hand, I'm 99% certain there's nothing wrong with her and don't want to put her though any investigations just for the sake of it, but it is odd and it's been at the back of my mind for a while.

Anyway, sorry for the essay, does anyone know if issues with weight gain is a long-term effect of a lack of food when young? Could she have some sort of issue with absorption? It's difficult to tell whether it's affected her growth, we've no idea what breed she is and so what size she's meant to be. 
Also, any recommendations for good foods to put weight on? We tried raw, but it upset her tummy. She gets the odd raw egg (but they make her really gassy, so reluctant to feed more!) and raw chicken wing/neck whenever we're having a whole chicken.

Thank you in advance


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## Clodagh (10 March 2015)

A friend has a preso cano cross pup he got from some travellers, she was lying with dead littermates and was in an awful state. She is nearly a year now and still an absolute bag of bones, he carries a letter from his vets! She eats and poos loads as well, but just doesn't seem to digest it.


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## Amymay (10 March 2015)

If she poos a lot is it possible that she's intolerant to the food you're feeding - hence the lack of weight that you'd like to see?


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## PorkChop (10 March 2015)

Well she is a very lucky girl   I would agree that if she is pooing a lot then maybe she is not utilising her food to the best advantage - I would suggest maybe trying her on something else.


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## splashgirl45 (10 March 2015)

some foods are too rich and go right through some dogs... what are you feeding?, maybe worth changing .. I feed james wellbeloved turkey and rice kibble and my dogs look well on it and have firm poos and go 2 or 3 times ... what a nice subject!!!!!! hope no one is eating!!!


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## twiggy2 (10 March 2015)

amymay said:



			If she poos a lot is it possible that she's intolerant to the food you're feeding - hence the lack of weight that you'd like to see?
		
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echo this do discuss it with your vet, of course it could be that she has some running dog in her breeding and she is supposed to look lean-can you put a picture of her up?


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## Dobiegirl (10 March 2015)

My first thought too she is not making full use of her food, what are you feeding her and perhaps we can suggest something more appropriate for her.


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## Possum (10 March 2015)

Thank you all. I'm on my phone so can't work the quote properly, and please excuse the typos.

Her poos are always dark brown and well formed (sorry - TMI!), her coat etc are all fine so I'd assumed it wasn't an intolerance - happy to be told this isn't the case though. 

I've tried a few different foods. She ate the grain-free wainwrights for small dogs for a while, then I noticed it was all turkey meal so she moved to fishmongers salmon and potato. She's now eating barking heads. I think at some point she also tried wafcol, not seen an appreciable difference with any of them. She also gets a spoonful of nature's diet wet food cos she likes it.  We tried raw, but anything other than pure chicken/turkey breast with the occasional wing gives her an upset tummy and that didnt seem like a terribly balanced diet.

I will see if I can manage a picture tomorrow, but it won't be much help in seeing her condition - she's got some non-shedding breed somewhere so is a right scruff - she's the spitting image of hairy maclairy from donaldson's dairy!!

Any advice on a more suitable food gratefully appreciated, thank you all for you ideas.


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## old hand (11 March 2015)

I had a Saluki that was like that, not starved but looked like it, he was blood tested and found to be short of zinc.  the vet recommended James Wellbeloved and he improved a lot.  He improved a lot.


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## planete (11 March 2015)

How many times a day do you feed?  I tend to increase the number of feeds to put weight on thin dogs.  I can recommend James Wellbeloved as well.  I always think that with underfed dogs they first replace the fat they should have inside their bodies before they can start looking better.  I also steam cook chicken and besides feeding the meat I pour the steaming water on the dry food as the chicken fat will be in it.(I normally feed raw but it does not seem to agree with yours).
Is she now worm-free?  If she was carrying a heavy burden when you got her you may need to repeat the worming after a shorter interval than normal.  Ask your vet about it.


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## Possum (11 March 2015)

Thanks again.

Planete, we currently feed twice a day, but you're right we could split that between 3.

I'm interested that so many are recommending James Wellbeloved, I wasn't that impressed when I read the back of the pack. A quick google said the main ingredients of the turkey and rice version are:  "brown rice (36.5%), turkey meal (17.5%), naked oats, white rice (13.9%), whole linseed, sugar beet pulp, turkey gravy (2.9%), turkey fat (2.1%), alfalfa meal, pea fibre, seaweed (0.5%)"

Whereas the Barking Heads she is on now is: "Freshly Prepared Deboned Turkey 34%, Sweet Potato, Dried Turkey 14%, Freshly Prepared Trout 5%, Lentils, Peas, Turkey Fat 3%, Turkey Stock 1.5%, Lucerne, Seaweed". 

Also, the James Wellbeloved is 19.5% protein and 10% fat, the Barking Heads is 24% protein, 15% fat. Does it still look worth switching her over?

Thanks also for the hint about worms.  Can you worm test dogs like you do horses? She gets Advocate monthly so I'd assumed this would get it all, but again happy to be corrected.


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## Apercrumbie (11 March 2015)

One of the reasons Audrey Hepburn was always so thin is because she was starved as a child under the Nazi occupation of Amsterdam.  She was so malnourished that she could never put on much weight again, so there is a precedent for your dog being slim.  Next time you go to the vets, maybe ask for a blood test to see if she's deficient in anything?


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## milo'n'molly (11 March 2015)

I knew someone with a welsh D mare who as a youngster was run pretty ferrel with 30+ horses before she bought her and being at the bottom of the pecking order ended up like a hat rack. She did well when removed from that environment but not only was she a hand smaller than full siblings but she can be fed to the eyeballs and always looks sporty when most of her relatives only look at food and turn into hippos.

However, my own dog has always been well fed and until he was about 2 you could feel every rib and see many, he filled out as he matured


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## Slightlyconfused (11 March 2015)

We have found natures harvest helped put weight on our new skinny pup. All of mine are on them and their poos are a lot fewer too


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## Alec Swan (11 March 2015)

splashgirl45 said:



			some foods are too rich and go right through some dogs&#8230; &#8230;&#8230;.. !!!
		
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I agree.

When I've taken in dogs which are particularly underweight,  I've generally fed a 'stopper',  a particularly low protein feed,  with a higher protein feed to follow it,  immediately after,  working on the basis that with a bulky feed arriving first,  so the gut has a chance to digest,  properly,  the richer feed which follows.  It's a bit of a home-brewed theory,  I'll agree,  but it seems to have worked in the past!  If you are able to weigh her,  accurately,  say every week,  and keep a chart,  you'll perhaps get a better idea of her improvement.

The digestion rate of a dog is phenomenal,  and when the excessively high protein feeds are fed,  it would be interesting to know what percentage of the stated protein remains within their faeces.  Generally,  very poor or under-done puppies (and foals too),  recover quite quickly when fed correctly.  The main problem with excessively thin puppies tends to come from a high or long term worm burden,  and long term damage can occur too.

Possum,  what are the claimed protein levels of the feeds which you've quoted?  We had a broodmare,  who no matter what she was fed,  whilst in,  she failed to put on weight.  As soon as she saw grass,  she'd put on condition as we watched,  just about!  Some animals need a specific feed regime,  and I'll agree with those who would advise against a constant change of diet,  because that won't help either.

It's a difficult one,  I'll agree,  but I'm sure that in time,  you'll get there!  Good luck.

Alec.


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## planete (11 March 2015)

Advocate does not tackle tapeworm.  If you have not yet used a wormer for tapeworm that is the first thing to do.  Ask your vet which one to use, and when, as you have to be careful not to use some products too close to each other.  No need for a  visit, they should be able to advise you over the phone or at the reception desk.  Do not buy cheap pet shop products, they are mostly ineffective.

Regarding protein levels, we never feed very high protein levels to our rescues.  Between 18 and 21 % seems to get the best results with no ensuing tummy upsets.  I have no idea of the science there might be behind it, but it works.


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## Possum (11 March 2015)

So she's seen the vet, who gave her a tapeworm tablet (Planete - I don't think our previous vet ever gave her one, so thanks for the heads up on that) but said that he wasn't concerned about her weight. He could tell from the size of her head/tail that she is a bit stunted (bless, I covered her ears) but that also a lot of active terrier types are quite lean and she might bulk up as she gets older.

So now I just need to decide what to do re food. I think she can definitely start having lunch, and I might look at another brand (although, as someone mentioned above, I can't keep changing her so I want to choose a good one and stick with it). 

Is James wellbeloved a good option despite the grain etc?

Alec - that is interesting. I've put the protein content of her current food in my post at the top .

Thank you all again.


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## Alec Swan (11 March 2015)

Possum,  any chance of a couple of decent 'conformational' pics?

Alec.


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## Possum (11 March 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Possum,  any chance of a couple of decent 'conformational' pics?

Alec.
		
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 Ill have a go later, not tried to do pictures before


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## Possum (11 March 2015)

Does this work?











With the cat, for perspective:





And because she's cute (any ideas on breed...?):





We failed at confirmation shots, she's a black dog on a navy carpet, wouldn't stand still and kept getting photo bombed by the cat, but hopefully these should give some idea?


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## Venevidivici (11 March 2015)

I've had great success with Simpsons sensitive Duck & Potato. It put weight on my very active,then 2yr old GSP(,who had never been right (or solid!) on any of the other (expensive!) foods I'd tried eg Orijen,Barking Heads,Fish4Dogs etc etc etc It also suited my 2 other GSPs (one younger,one much older) and I'm not changing for love nor money now! (I've found a quality,grain free one that works and I'm sticking to it!) It's £107 for 45kilos (3x15kg bags-sorry,don't know the price of less,I order a lot at once direct from Simpsons, as we have a few big dogs) so not cheap but comparable to other high end brands and FREE next day delivery,which is fab..ring up and it arrives the next day,without fail. 
(Fwiw,I think rice (present in a lot of dog foods) did not agree with mine,though I know they're all different.)


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## Venevidivici (11 March 2015)

Ps lovely pics! (You're right,hard to tell condition, due to coat.) She looks like good fun & I'd say def some Patterdale in her?


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## twiggy2 (11 March 2015)

yorkie cross pat would be my guess she looks like a bundle of fun and tbh if vet is happy that she is fit and well then I would not worry about getting weight on, to lean is better than to fat


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## Possum (12 March 2015)

Thanks all. Makes a lot of sense, we were previously leaning towards mini schnauzer x yorkie but I could well believe there's pat in there, would explain all the drive, the energy and obsessive behaviour.

Yes, she is a lot of fun - mad as a box of frogs but a great laugh apart from the times you want to throttle her p).


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## planete (12 March 2015)

James Well beloved do grain free as well.  I use the Lamb and Vegetables.


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## Alec Swan (12 March 2015)

Possum said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Yes, she is a lot of fun - mad as a box of frogs but a great laugh apart from the times you want to throttle her p).
		
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She looks an absolute treat!  I'd also be with your Vet,  and though it's difficult to see through all the coat,  I'd say that her body score is just about perfect.

She's a scruffy hairy little rag-bag,  and you've found yourself an absolute delight,  or she found you!!  Well done,  stop worrying,  and enjoy her.

Alec.


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