# 'The Good Old Days' entry level jumping



## avthechav (10 November 2013)

I know a few people who ride at a similar level to me and who talk about how they started at newcomers, novice etc before the days of British novice and intro and I just get a bit confused. I know that British eventing has changed beyond all belief and a novice course now bears little relation to a novice course then, but was a novice and a newcomers the same dimensions 'back then'?

After a lot of lessons and time riding I can just about manage a 1.10 course in training if I'm having a particular good day but am defo not able to go out and compete at that height so what did people like me do? I get the impression that there are more people now jumping under 1.10 than over so did these people just not compete before?

...answers on a post card?


----------



## 1t34 (10 November 2013)

Yep everything started at Newcomers height (as it is now). Poles were probably a bit heavier and you didn't have a prevalence of water trays etc. To be fair unafilliated opens tended to be about 3'6" so it wasn't a massive step if you were doing well unafilliated. Pony classes started at newcomers as well.


----------



## avthechav (10 November 2013)

I see, so you would basically stick At unaffiliated until ready to make move to affiliated, rather than having an affiliated version of pretty much everything unaffilated nowadays?


----------



## dieseldog (10 November 2013)

In the old days unaffiliated went up to 3'9 (or more) and they were well supported, you also had local shows which don't seem to exist anymore.  You could go jumping nearly every weekend at that height and have good competition and it wasn't frowned upon that your were jumping unaffiliated, you weren't seen as pot hunting as it was so competitive.

Nowadays you get the odd place that will do a 1.05 open - but you would be lucky to have 4 people in it - where is the fun in that?


----------



## Jesstickle (10 November 2013)

My Mother terrifies me with stories of her pony 13.2 (who she jumped under rules) jumping five foot fences. Madness!

I think there was a lot more unaffiliated stuff at a decent level even when I was a kid (I'm 29 now). Now if I go out unaffiliated I'm doing well to find anything over a meter which has more than two people in it. I'm sure as a kid that wasn't the case?

Ha, as I posted dd said the exact same thing so clearly not my imagination then!!


----------



## avthechav (10 November 2013)

Yes I guess you are right, when I was younger pretty much everyone did pony club, which meant weekly PC comps of some description every weekend up to 3ft 6 and sometimes more, and the training and support that goes along with that, whereas I know a lot of people competing now who have never pony clubbed.  Also I agree re the lack of local shows, I guess no longer financially viable?


----------



## Double_choc_lab (10 November 2013)

Back in the day pony jumping was more 12 2 12 years and under, 13 2 14yrs and under and 14 2 16yrs and under. Novice BE was 3 ft 6 as was newcomers. I wonder if the lower heights have been introduced to get more people joining BS and BE or am I being cynical.


----------



## slumdog (10 November 2013)

I was just about to post this!  What were the money limits to jump out of newcomers/fox? What happened after Fox? Some of the old photos of the HOYS classes look huge!! Especially the pony classes!


----------



## siennamum (10 November 2013)

This photo is from the late 70's and is the unaffiliated Open SJ at a local show. We just seemed to start jumping at about 1m, sadly that's about my upper limit now:


----------



## Jesstickle (10 November 2013)

I do think it is self fulfilling. We all jumped a meter as standard as a starting point but because now people want to tell you that is big it makes you think it is. If the courses hadn't shrunk we would all still be doing it I think.


----------



## Fools Motto (10 November 2013)

I remember doing about 2'9'' on my 12,2 - mid 80's, when I was only about 7 or 8. I remember the poles being heavy, hexagonal wooden things as opposed to plastic and round now!

Everything is so safety conscious now, so never see the likes of that again.


----------



## LEC (10 November 2013)

I actually think there has been a seismic shift in the horse owning population. I started riding 30 years ago and have seen a substantial shift. 

1) More first time horse owners particularly adults who are able to afford their much longed for horse.
2) Rise of DIY livery making horse ownership viable for above.
3) Rise in disposable income

with this comes more people who enter the horse world and thus cash and why would you not want to take this money as an organisation?


----------



## Daytona (10 November 2013)

I remember doing a XC on my 12.2 pony and 1 jump was a 5 bar field gate, no way would you get that now ha ha, my wee pony flew over it no probs ;-)


----------



## measles (10 November 2013)

I am another who went straight into BS Newcomers in ponies at 1m and would agree that the demise of the local show in a field with large trophies to be won has done for competitive unaffiliated at fair heights. I do think that BS at lower levels is no bad thing however as course building at the unaffiliated shows of my childhood was often something to behold.


----------



## Pigeon (10 November 2013)

This is my mum, aged 15, doing an event with the pony club team, in the mid seventies. Terrifying!!


----------



## TarrSteps (11 November 2013)

LEC said:



			I actually think there has been a seismic shift in the horse owning population. I started riding 30 years ago and have seen a substantial shift. 

1) More first time horse owners particularly adults who are able to afford their much longed for horse.
2) Rise of DIY livery making horse ownership viable for above.
3) Rise in disposable income

with this comes more people who enter the horse world and thus cash and why would you not want to take this money as an organisation?
		
Click to expand...

This, more or less.  It used to be very unusual for adults to start riding and any kid who had a pony was either well supported or not really in a position to compete. 

Also, there was a lot of bad riding, whether people remember it or not!  It wasn't like everyone was so fantastic, never had training problems and rode like centaurs.  I do think people worried less about the "how" and more about just getting on with it, but then (see above) there was less concern for safety and a rather more "agricultural" attitude towards horses in general.


----------



## EventingMum (11 November 2013)

slumdog said:



			I was just about to post this!  What were the money limits to jump out of newcomers/fox? What happened after Fox? Some of the old photos of the HOYS classes look huge!! Especially the pony classes!
		
Click to expand...

In the late 70's, early 80's if I remember correctly newcomers limit was £20 and foxhunter was £75. Prize money for a win in newcomers was averaging £5 and foxhunter was £8. I remember getting £50 for winning the foxhunter regional final (you only got one shot at qualifying for HOYS then) and it seemed like a fortune! There were a few Grade C classes which had second rounds and national finals for different winnings within Grade eg Typesetters and Maxicrop which catered for horses out of newcomers or foxhunter but still in Grade C. After foxhunter you tended to jump Grade C' s or B and C' s or there was the odd small open. Basically if your horse won too much but didn't have the scope to jump the bigger classes you were quite limited. The limit for Grade A was about £750 -800 and the went up to £1000.  

As others have said the unaffiliated shows tended to have higher classes than generally seen now and people tended to compete unaffiliated before taking the step up to affiliated shows. All very different to today!


----------



## popsdosh (11 November 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Also, there was a lot of bad riding, whether people remember it or not!  It wasn't like everyone was so fantastic, never had training problems and rode like centaurs.  I do think people worried less about the "how" and more about just getting on with it, but then (see above) there was less concern for safety and a rather more "agricultural" attitude towards horses in general.
		
Click to expand...

Was that a bad thing??? Everybody seemed to enjoy themselves! Today all I see when out and even on this very forum is people getting stressed because they are having issues this isnt going right etc etc and the lower the level the more you get .There is in my opinion a lot more bad riding today as at the lower levels you can get away with it more.


----------



## lizbet (11 November 2013)

Oh well i have just been slated on one forum for trying
to help a veteran horse whos been a sweetheart all its
life. Its bolted twice with its owner and now is classed
as unsafe and needs to be put to sleep. How would they
have gone on in the good old days.


----------



## siennamum (11 November 2013)

lizbet said:



			Oh well i have just been slated on one forum for trying
to help a veteran horse whos been a sweetheart all its
life. Its bolted twice with its owner and now is classed
as unsafe and needs to be put to sleep. How would they
have gone on in the good old days.
		
Click to expand...

My mother bought a 25 yr old confirmed bolter, who was en route for the knackers as a 1st pony for me - when I was 7. That's what happened in the good old days.
I worked out that she would do a sliding stop at any speed if you started to dismount, so when we were galloping at full speed towards a main road I would have to swing my leg over and start running.


----------



## siennamum (11 November 2013)

Pigeon said:



			This is my mum, aged 15, doing an event with the pony club team, in the mid seventies. Terrifying!! 






Click to expand...

Brilliant picture I have a few like this - no BP, no boots, velvet hat with a bit of elastic under the chin haha.


----------



## lizbet (11 November 2013)

Thanks your right remember doing side saddle
forgot my struip had to get on and jump the fence
anyway. X


----------



## lizbet (11 November 2013)

siennamum said:



			My mother bought a 25 yr old confirmed bolter, who was en route for the knackers as a 1st pony for me - when I was 7. That's what happened in the good old days.
I worked out that she would do a sliding stop at any speed if you started to dismount, so when we were galloping at full speed towards a main road I would have to swing my leg over and start running.
		
Click to expand...

Well they know every trick
in the book dont they,but they dont normally go all thier lives
being sweethearts and then suddenly start to bolt without a valid
reason do they.


----------



## humblepie (11 November 2013)

We used to have some serious unaffiliated shows round our way back in the 70s and 80s, with opens as others have said around 3'9/4' in the first round.  Aged 10 I won one on my 13.2 pony and got my picture in all the local papers as the trophy was presented by Sir Gordon Richards.   Even with decent unaffiliated tracks, it was still quite "something" to start affiliated and yes my first affiliated horse started Newcomers then onto Fox.  I remember the limits being £80 and £300.

Siennamum and Pigeon's mum - yes I too have cross country photos like that (though not quite such a huge fence) but hat with velvet strap, no boots, etc.


----------



## khalswitz (11 November 2013)

In some ways I think it is lovely that affiliation is something more people can aim for now - you get quality courses/judging, and the chance of reaching things like Badminton Grassroots which is really encouraging for those who will never jump round Novice.

I think the decline of unaffiliated shows is a shame, but the number of volunteers that RCs and PCs are able to get these days, with everyone so much busier, means that running ODEs is difficult. In our area I can certainly count on fingers the number of unaff ODEs and hunter paces, and certainly only one of the six local RCs run an ODE. This means that more people turn to affiliated competition as a way of actually getting out!

To the person who said about more lower level upset, that's mostly due to the number of adult novice riders rather than introduction of lower level affiliated competition. Out doing dressage this weekend I met five adults doing their first ever test! In the old days, they would have done it all as kids at PC. And I think when you have more adults learning to ride and compete, you need a more structured way of helping them along and encouraging them - and that is where lower level affiliated comes into play, as there is so much local training etc to help them, where they haven't got the PC support that the competing kids do.


----------



## marmalade76 (11 November 2013)

Does anyone remember when there used to be a lot more adults and teenagers doing gymkhana? 'Cause if your horse/pony couldn't /wouldn't jump 3' there wasn't much else you could do (and it was worth doing 'cause there was prize money for gymkhana back then!)


----------



## djlynwood (11 November 2013)

khalswitz said:



			To the person who said about more lower level upset, that's mostly due to the number of adult novice riders rather than introduction of lower level affiliated competition. Out doing dressage this weekend I met five adults doing their first ever test! In the old days, they would have done it all as kids at PC. And I think when you have more adults learning to ride and compete, you need a more structured way of helping them along and encouraging them - and that is where lower level affiliated comes into play, as there is so much local training etc to help them, where they haven't got the PC support that the competing kids do.
		
Click to expand...

This is a very valid point. I sat on a horse for the first time ever in my life when I was 31. Im 40 now and have never looked back. Im very envious of everyone who is lucky to have experienced PC.


----------



## khalswitz (11 November 2013)

marmalade76 said:



			Does anyone remember when there used to be a lot more adults and teenagers doing gymkhana? 'Cause if your horse/pony couldn't /wouldn't jump 3' there wasn't much else you could do (and it was worth doing 'cause there was prize money for gymkhana back then!)
		
Click to expand...

I still go to gymkhanas - and there is always pretty good turnout for the SJ and WH up here, lots of adults and teenagers. No prize money, but I guess good practice for the young horses that need to be jumping minimum 85cm for RC, and minimum 90mcm for BS, and minimum 90cm for even novice WH... it's always the 70-90cm classes that are the busiest.


----------



## sport horse (11 November 2013)

I started jumping in the mid 1960's and the first affiliated class was Foxhunter.The first 3 fences had to be rustic and 3'6" and the remainder of the course was 3'9". It was run under A2 rules so there were two jump offs. the first would be 4' and then against the clock was 4'3" (1.15/1.22/130) Before going to affiliated shows we went to Pony Club/Riding Club where the classes ran from 2'6" (76cm) through to 3'9" (1.15).

I came from a non horsey family, had weekly riding lessons to start and then kept my horse in a livery yard at part livery - it was mucked out/turned out/caught in and fed. We were ruled by the yard owner who saw to it that we were educated in horse care and management and that included riding correctly.

I do think that nowadays many people get their first horse, keep it at DIY, read a book, watch a Monty Roberts DVD and suddenly become experts and accept no advice from anyone because they know it all. Hence the much lower standards.

If you could not jump big enough to jump 2.6" you did not go to a show. If you could not canter you did not do dressage! (not that there was much of that anyway!) 

I rest my case!!


----------



## Goya (11 November 2013)

I think the rise in permanent show centres has "killed" the local village show. Back in my day (Late 60's/70's) there was an unaffiliated show almost every week locally, usually run for some charity or other. And yes--I remember the opens being 3'6" as a norm with many entries. 
There was always gymkhana events along with the SJ and showing classes.
Hardly anyone had their own transport and so hacked along to the show, rucksack on my back with the grooming kit, ponies feed and treats and my picnic of course.
To compete affiliated SJ you had to enter way in advance and even then you often missed out as the classes were full (60+) at Newcomer level and Foxhunter. Eventing started at Novice (3'6")
Nowadays the show centres have taken on the weekly events and more and more are affiliated to the various disciplines.


----------



## khalswitz (11 November 2013)

Goya said:



			Hardly anyone had their own transport and so hacked along to the show, rucksack on my back with the grooming kit, ponies feed and treats and my picnic of course.
		
Click to expand...

OMG this!!! I hacked my horse to an agri show in the summer - he was perfect, queued up behind the cattle trailers at the entrance to get in. The response I had from the show secretary etc was 'that is far too dangerous, you should;t be riding him to a show, no one has ever done it int eh history of the show'. I thought it was all a bit melodramatic to be honest - it was only three miles, and only the last half mile had any traffic at all, and that was within first a 40 then a 30 zone!!! And I was sure they'd have had people riding to the show in the past... my PC handbook talks about hacking to hunt meets etc and the pace at which to ride - it was obviously a 'done thing'.


----------



## slumdog (11 November 2013)

I remember saving my dinner money through the week so I could pay the £3 transport fee to the local show on a Sunday, ponies were packed in a converted cattle wagon and the kids travelled in the Luton above the ponies!


----------



## JCWHITE (11 November 2013)

Memory lane indeed, thanks for all your thoughts.
Gymkhana was the way to go back then.
I remember Junior Foxhunter or Junior Open BSJA, JC or JA ponies.
From horses, Newcomers and Foxhunter, jumped three clears at City of Birmingham to go to Wembley 1978.
These days my entries are quite different, enter by the previous Monday, all on line, very modern era.


----------



## wench (11 November 2013)

But the "good old days" were far better obviously....


----------



## j1ffy (11 November 2013)

Memory lane indeed...!  I remember when my friends and I used to talk in awe about people 'going affiliated' - it started at 3'6" then and we used to do 3'3" unaffiliated on our 14.2s and occasionally attempt a 3'6" to prove that maybe we could affiliate if only we had the money, transport (and talent - the 3'6" attempts generally ended in failure ).  The village shows were great, usually in a random field or on the village green with dodgy ground and welly wanging next to the show jumping.  I don't remember a lot of dressage going on, my 14.2 would only canter on the left lead, and people who could ride 'on the bit' were few and far between!


----------



## marmalade76 (11 November 2013)

j1ffy said:



			...and people who could ride 'on the bit' were few and far between!
		
Click to expand...

Because no one was bothered about riding on the bit, now 'outline' is an obsession..


----------



## Dollysox (11 November 2013)

Brilliant thread!  I remember (and still have the rosette!) coming second in a Chase Me Charlie at the end of the day when the 13.2 hh riding school pony I was borrowing for the day flew over a 4 ft 6 in fence.  I'd never jumped anything higher than 2 ft 9 in before 9in a field using oil cans!), and remember pointing him at the fence and grabbing a handful of mane.  I might even have had my eyes shut!  

We used to hack to the local annual show, setting off at about 8 in the morning to get there, generally having three refusals at the first fence of at least one of the classes we entered, spending all our pocket money on late entries during the day and getting back at about 7 in the evening.  As a non-pony owning obsessive child of non-horsey parents it was the highlight of my horse riding year.


----------



## Kikke (11 November 2013)

I used to hack at least two hours on my own from the age of 11 every Sunday all summer long. Only wore a head because needed it for the competition. Barefoot cantering down the road. Hivis?? Oh dear those were the days


----------



## Pigeon (11 November 2013)

lol Yes!!! My mum's transport was a sheep wagon that her dad had 'converted' - cut the roof off and raised it a few inches with wooden planks...

Tbf, we didn't have a trailer/proper car until a couple of years ago, and we used to hack to everything! Wouldn't do it now though, I think you get more worried about risks as you get older.


----------



## TarrSteps (14 November 2013)

popsdosh said:



			Was that a bad thing??? Everybody seemed to enjoy themselves! Today all I see when out and even on this very forum is people getting stressed because they are having issues this isnt going right etc etc and the lower the level the more you get .There is in my opinion a lot more bad riding today as at the lower levels you can get away with it more.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't say it was!  I'm probably still a bit "agricultural" myself.  But I get a bit irritated when I hear people banging on about how wonderfully everyone rode in the age of the dinosaurs.  I might not be able to trust my memory but I have photos to prove it wasn't necessarily so!

I think lots of things have changed - more people coming late to riding, less "hacking friendly" main roads, great population density in more suburban environments etc.  It's not so simple as saying everyone used to be able to ride and now no one can. 

(I did not grown up in the UK, obviously, but it was the same where I was from.  It was not uncommon to have "schooling" shows that went up to 4', although the quality of course could be interesting, to say the least!  That's a thing of the past in most areas now.)


----------



## siennamum (14 November 2013)

Well at the small RC show I am jumping at in the picture above, I was shortly followed into the ring by Caroline Bradley. If you were jumping at Opens or competitive at 14.2, even unaffiliated you were fairly tidy. There was the hold and fire brigade, and not many people could (or cared about) get a horse on the bit, but standards seemed higher as there were so few people  doing it.

I found in the annals of the BE database, the running order from a section at Brigstock when I was competing there, and it was all pro's with a few YR types, like Karen Straker. 

At local shows/gymnkhanas etc you saw some sights but there wasn't the proliferation of shocking riding and management you see nowadays as there wasn't the proliferation of horses.  I have seen worse recently at local shows. (people competing 3 year olds, saddles which don't fit, horrendous shoeing, wormy, poor, lame horses)

In the 'good old days', there were large numbers of interfering but seriously knowledgeable people who would be properly integrated into the local horsey scene. When I was growing up I was a few miles from Sylvia Stanier, Josephine Knowles, Anne Maxwell, Jonny Wrathall and Sue Muirhead. Our PC was trained by Lady Mary Rose Wiliams. I live near Bristol now, and with the exception of some local dressage and eventing riders, there simply isn't anyone who trains who is of that calibre, or who is involved with the PC, the local horse scene or just gives freely of their time. 

There are hundreds  of people on the local facebook pages whose lack of knowledge is shocking tbh. The local 'experts' are trained to BHSAI and they really are top of the pile. There isn't really anyone else. When I first came to this part of the world I thought it was a regional difference and I think that is true in part, really though I think it's just how things have changed.


----------



## humblepie (14 November 2013)

Siennamum - my only instruction as a child was Pony Club and our pony club had Mrs Sivewright and her mother  instructing from time to time and that was for us children not on teams or with flash ponies or anything.   As an adult when I show jumped I seldom had lessons and it probably did show in my lack of style but horse went in a simple snaffle without any need for gadgets.  As you indicate as the unaffiliated opens were decent sized people did generally mix between affiliated and unaffiliated and we had horses that were jumping Newcomers and Fox doing the big open at local shows.  It wasn't pothunting, it was the standard it was at.


----------



## Maesfen (14 November 2013)

avthechav said:



			I see, so you would basically stick At unaffiliated until ready to make move to affiliated, rather than having an affiliated version of pretty much everything unaffilated nowadays?
		
Click to expand...

Yes and it was a real achievement to become sufficiently proficient too.  It meant people learnt the basics properly at local shows until they were ready and you certainly didn't see some awful riding that you see nowadays because people haven't bothered to learn enough before competing.

Sorry, off soap box now but it's a big bugbear of mine.  You should be proficient in something before attempting to affilliate, it's not as if there aren't enough unaffilliated competitions where you can learn.   Learn your trade at home before competing, it will give you a much better base of experience.


----------



## Jo_x (14 November 2013)

Maesfen said:



			Yes and it was a real achievement to become sufficiently proficient too.  It meant people learnt the basics properly at local shows until they were ready and you certainly didn't see some awful riding that you see nowadays because people haven't bothered to learn enough before competing.

Sorry, off soap box now but it's a big bugbear of mine.  You should be proficient in something before attempting to affilliate, it's not as if there aren't enough unaffilliated competitions where you can learn.   Learn your trade at home before competing, it will give you a much better base of experience.
		
Click to expand...

Learning your trade at home before competing and learning unaffiliated before going affiliated are two completely different kettles of fish, surely? Learning at home first I completely agree with, unaffiliated before affiliated not so much - given that courses are far more regulated at affiliated competitions and you can get some seriously dodgy courses at unaffiliated shows, its often better to go affiliated asap so you can learn round good quality courses, rather than scaring yourself and the horse with dodgy striding


----------



## Maesfen (14 November 2013)

Jo_x said:



			Learning your trade at home before competing and learning unaffiliated before going affiliated are two completely different kettles of fish, surely? Learning at home first I completely agree with, unaffiliated before affiliated not so much - given that courses are far more regulated at affiliated competitions and you can get some seriously dodgy courses at unaffiliated shows, its often better to go affiliated asap so you can learn round good quality courses, rather than scaring yourself and the horse with dodgy striding
		
Click to expand...

Has course building really sunk so low now?  I don't know as I don't follow local jumping now.  
Back in the days, even at the gymkhana up the road, you always had decent courses to jump; yes, some would be harder than others but you never seemed to get bad or dodgy courses at all and nearly all would be built by people that rode, perhaps that's the difference now.  Perhaps it just comes down to learning a craft (course building) properly in the first place before you inflict it on someone else and the shows that use dodgy CBs not be supported for that reason.


----------



## khalswitz (14 November 2013)

Jo_x said:



			Learning your trade at home before competing and learning unaffiliated before going affiliated are two completely different kettles of fish, surely? Learning at home first I completely agree with, unaffiliated before affiliated not so much - given that courses are far more regulated at affiliated competitions and you can get some seriously dodgy courses at unaffiliated shows, its often better to go affiliated asap so you can learn round good quality courses, rather than scaring yourself and the horse with dodgy striding
		
Click to expand...

This. We don't have many XC course up here in NE Scotland, and some of the unaff ones are DREADFUL. I went to one in spring where the ground was so bad you had to trot whole portions of the course, and take offs/landings were a mess. So when I can go affiliated at 80cm and jump round a well-maintained course, even if I'm rubbish, isn't it better for my horse than trying to go round a bad unaff course and put him off?

TBH, I wouldn't have the intention of going affiliated BD or BS until he was jumping well at 1m/1.05m unaff, or doing Novice with decent scores, because I think it's a lot of money to go affiliated if there is enough unaff competition at your level, so you want to be doing well when you start out aff. However, when you can do BE80/BE90 on day tickets and jump round a much better maintained course, with better standard of judging in the DR, then why the hell not? BE80 especially is a (T) for a reason - to train people!! Why you expect anyone going round a specially named Training height class to be expert I don't know.


----------



## Orangehorse (14 November 2013)

Lots of local shows were affiliated, I used to do Junior Foxhunter.  I looked at any old photo of my pony and the fence looks huge.  At Eventing the classes were Novice, Intermediate and Open and the fences were 3' 6" cross country and up to 3' 9" show jumping.  I remember going into my first affiated Novice Eventing class and thinking that the show jumps were the biggest I had ever seen.

There was one local farmer who used to turn out every Saturday and run the gymkhana games for nearly all the local shows all over the county and once there were 60 in the Musical Sacks!  Gymkhana competition was fierce.  I didn't ever do a dressage test at Pony Club - dressage was for the "team" ridiers.
I just got on and did show jumping, gymkhana and hunting and did a bit of "schooling" in the field.

The costs of run'ningt a local show are now very high and it is so difficult to find people to help.  For hunts it is a lot simpler to organise a Pleasure Ride than bother with hunter trials with having to get judges, etc.


----------



## DragonSlayer (14 November 2013)

Do they even call them Gymkhanas these days? All the one around here are usually called 'Open Show'..not seen the word Gymkhana for many years....

...and yes, certainly the attitude towards jumping seems to have changed, you only have to read the Jill books to know that jumping 4ft and over on a 13.2 was the 'done thing' and a pony aged 4 should have all his education behind him!


----------



## Old Bat (14 November 2013)

Pigeon said:



			This is my mum, aged 15, doing an event with the pony club team, in the mid seventies. Terrifying!! 






Click to expand...

Errm, any idea where that was? Looks very familiar from when I was PC eventing at the same time, even down to the wire! Or perhaps that was just the standard!


----------



## Pigeon (14 November 2013)

Old Bat said:



			Errm, any idea where that was? Looks very familiar from when I was PC eventing at the same time, even down to the wire! Or perhaps that was just the standard!
		
Click to expand...

Not certain, she grew up in Newbury so perhaps near there? I'll ask her! 

lol At the wire comment, it's all very different these days!


----------



## Old Bat (14 November 2013)

Here we are, rubbish position! It was a riding school pony, 14hh in an open eventing team at Eridge or Firle in the mid 70's. The jump had been badly crunched just before me and tied together with baler twine, take off very carved up and little pony got hugely deep and cat jumped. I was so proud of the borrowed skull cap! There was a very similar ditch jump in the same course which scared the pants off me but rode better than that bloomin' hay rack.


----------



## siennamum (14 November 2013)

gorgeous pony. we must have been PC evening in Warwickshire at a similar time, though I was more Northamptonshire.


----------



## stencilface (14 November 2013)

Maesfen said:



			Has course building really sunk so low now?  I don't know as I don't follow local jumping now.  
.
		
Click to expand...

Twice at a local showcross I have questioned the SJ course. First time they had a filler under the back bar of the oxer, when I queried it they said it was to make sure the riders were being accurate. I was like wtf?! However I was too weak to argue and went in anyway,  I didn't have it down but a good proportion did. Second time, everyone was having one oxer down, looking at it from the warm up it was obvious the back rail was lower. This time i put my foot down and demanded the fat lazy course builder got out of his cabin, despite him protesting he'd set it up correctly. Sure enough I was right, he likely had set it correctly, but it hadn't been put back up properly.

Same centre also didn't (or still doesn't, not sure) pin down its portable Xc fences, causing one horse to get its back end stuck in a table which flipped over.

So in short, you need to have your wits about you and not be fobbed off when you're right!


----------



## Maesfen (14 November 2013)

Sorry, I always understood an oxer did have a lower back rail (but same height as the front rail) so if you viewed it from the side, the shape was a triangle; is that not the case now?  Surely it would be more like a parallel if the back rail was the same height or have they changed all the terms now as well?


----------



## slumdog (14 November 2013)

Stencilface said:



			Twice at a local showcross I have questioned the SJ course. First time they had a filler under the back bar of the oxer, when I queried it they said it was to make sure the riders were being accurate. I was like wtf?! However I was too weak to argue and went in anyway,  I didn't have it down but a good proportion did. Second time, everyone was having one oxer down, looking at it from the warm up it was obvious the back rail was lower. This time i put my foot down and demanded the fat lazy course builder got out of his cabin, despite him protesting he'd set it up correctly. Sure enough I was right, he likely had set it correctly, but it hadn't been put back up properly.

Same centre also didn't (or still doesn't, not sure) pin down its portable Xc fences, causing one horse to get its back end stuck in a table which flipped over.

So in short, you need to have your wits about you and not be fobbed off when you're right!
		
Click to expand...

My local riding club is rather proud of the fact that they build to 'catch people out' resulting in at least 2 broken legs (people) and a horrific horse fall this season. If you want something re measuring or question the course building you are just told all complaints need a £50 deposit!


----------



## dieseldog (14 November 2013)

Maesfen said:



			Has course building really sunk so low now?  I don't know as I don't follow local jumping now.  
Back in the days, even at the gymkhana up the road, you always had decent courses to jump; yes, some would be harder than others but you never seemed to get bad or dodgy courses at all and nearly all would be built by people that rode, perhaps that's the difference now.  Perhaps it just comes down to learning a craft (course building) properly in the first place before you inflict it on someone else and the shows that use dodgy CBs not be supported for that reason.
		
Click to expand...

Yes and No.  I walked a RC XC and SJ course the day before the comp recently and didn't go as it was so badly built.  But in the old days you would also get bad courses.  I did PC open area SJ one year and there were big ruts in front of a fence which tripped my poor horse up and put me in bed for 6 weeks not being able to walk, I was too young to say anything.

I think the lack of entries in unaff put people off, it is no fun competing in a class with 2 people in it.  Go to Wales and West and you will have over 100 in the same height class and win money.  Entry fees are also similar, so way pay roughly the same for what is in one case just a clear round?

When you talk about PC trainers I used to have lessons with Dr Woodward, Eric Winter and some Olympic dressage rider.


----------



## stencilface (14 November 2013)

Maesfen said:



			Sorry, I always understood an oxer did have a lower back rail (but same height as the front rail) so if you viewed it from the side, the shape was a triangle; is that not the case now?  Surely it would be more like a parallel if the back rail was the same height or have they changed all the terms now as well?
		
Click to expand...

I don't get the triangle bit? The pole was on lower holes, like how you would do a mini hogs back but without the front rail.


----------



## dieseldog (14 November 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			I didn't say it was!  I'm probably still a bit "agricultural" myself.  But I get a bit irritated when I hear people banging on about how wonderfully everyone rode in the age of the dinosaurs.  I might not be able to trust my memory but I have photos to prove it wasn't necessarily so!

I think lots of things have changed - more people coming late to riding, less "hacking friendly" main roads, great population density in more suburban environments etc.  It's not so simple as saying everyone used to be able to ride and now no one can. 

(I did not grown up in the UK, obviously, but it was the same where I was from.  It was not uncommon to have "schooling" shows that went up to 4', although the quality of course could be interesting, to say the least!  That's a thing of the past in most areas now.)
		
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone has said everyone rode wonderfully in the past.  Just that the classes went a lot bigger as there was more demand for it.  If you went evening jumping, you wouldn't get home until midnight and on a weekend show you would be jumping the last class at 8pm or later. I think that was a combination of people not having transport, and not needing to affiliate as there was something for you to do.  A bit of a vicious circle.

I hope now with the relaxation of the BS 'not allowed to win money at unaffiliated' rule and the threat of all rounds being recorded on BS records it will reignite the unaffiliated scene.


----------



## gunnergundog (14 November 2013)

As far as eventing is concerned, I started off when novice was the norm.  People learnt their craft for XC in the hunting field;  there were very few island fences though and the jumps were more rider frighteners, not so technical by any means but possibly larger dimensions.  Not saying the riding was any better,,,,,it was just different! Perhaps it comes down to the fact that hunting was different then too.............no hunt fences, just following a line.


----------



## TarrSteps (14 November 2013)

siennamum said:



			Well at the small RC show I am jumping at in the picture above, I was shortly followed into the ring by Caroline Bradley. If you were jumping at Opens or competitive at 14.2, even unaffiliated you were fairly tidy. There was the hold and fire brigade, and not many people could (or cared about) get a horse on the bit, but standards seemed higher as there were so few people  doing it.

I found in the annals of the BE database, the running order from a section at Brigstock when I was competing there, and it was all pro's with a few YR types, like Karen Straker. 

At local shows/gymnkhanas etc you saw some sights but there wasn't the proliferation of shocking riding and management you see nowadays as there wasn't the proliferation of horses.  I have seen worse recently at local shows. (people competing 3 year olds, saddles which don't fit, horrendous shoeing, wormy, poor, lame horses)

In the 'good old days', there were large numbers of interfering but seriously knowledgeable people who would be properly integrated into the local horsey scene. When I was growing up I was a few miles from Sylvia Stanier, Josephine Knowles, Anne Maxwell, Jonny Wrathall and Sue Muirhead. Our PC was trained by Lady Mary Rose Wiliams. I live near Bristol now, and with the exception of some local dressage and eventing riders, there simply isn't anyone who trains who is of that calibre, or who is involved with the PC, the local horse scene or just gives freely of their time. 

There are hundreds  of people on the local facebook pages whose lack of knowledge is shocking tbh. The local 'experts' are trained to BHSAI and they really are top of the pile. There isn't really anyone else. When I first came to this part of the world I thought it was a regional difference and I think that is true in part, really though I think it's just how things have changed.
		
Click to expand...

I would definitely agree with this, especially the bit about "leaders" in the community who were forthright with their opinions, even if they had no official connection to the riders involved.  I think the lack of this is also connected to the explosion of adult riders though, as it's easy to lecture a young inexperienced person but adults tend not to take it well and will shoot back that they have read this book or seen that DVD.


----------



## Double_choc_lab (14 November 2013)

dieseldog said:



			Yes and No.  I walked a RC XC and SJ course the day before the comp recently and didn't go as it was so badly built.  But in the old days you would also get bad courses.  I did PC open area SJ one year and there were big ruts in front of a fence which tripped my poor horse up and put me in bed for 6 weeks not being able to walk, I was too young to say anything.

I think the lack of entries in unaff put people off, it is no fun competing in a class with 2 people in it.  Go to Wales and West and you will have over 100 in the same height class and win money.  Entry fees are also similar, so way pay roughly the same for what is in one case just a clear round?

When you talk about PC trainers I used to have lessons with Dr Woodward, Eric Winter and some Olympic dressage rider.
		
Click to expand...

I remember the scary Dr Wodward and also had lessons with Chris Battle - think he was Great Somerford way. Also remember Eric Winter when he was charging around gymkhanas.


----------



## popsdosh (14 November 2013)

I know a lot wont agree but I think the odd abnormality in UA jumping actually makes for better riding and more thinking on the horses part,rather than going round courses where everything is spot on. I am not talking extremes here but the odd dodgy distance can make a horse and rider listen to each other more.The same as taking horses hunting helps their education come on quicker. These horses and riders cope better when things arent perfect!

Old Bat I am pretty sure thats at Firle! I grew up there seems a long time ago!!!


----------



## Jesstickle (14 November 2013)

Whilst my Mother had a blast as a child she is pretty adamant that she saw plenty of horribly ill fitting tack and bad riding in her yoof (mid 60s on) and that she literally never, ever schooled her beasts ever. Despite jumping affiliated pony tracks and hunting all winter her pony, she tells me, was as stiff as a board. She went to PC and presumably was instructed but as a hunt affiliated branch I can only assume they did more on fitness than anything else because she still cross her hand over my poor horse's neck to steer when she rides him so she didn't learn much   She also tell me that if a horse was a git it was shot but that is another matter  

And although I love her and she certainly sits tight and balanced her riding is pretty agricultural too. I'm not sure things were better then, just different!  For example, she has broken literally every bone she has. Including her back. Now, I am not terribly elf and safety mad or anything but that is a pretty poor record I should say! I think in this day and age we are a bit safer and if that means not coming near to death regularly then some things have changed for the good at least


----------



## oysterbay (14 November 2013)

Things were different then.  Not better, not worse - just different.

I can remember Open jumping at local shows by car headlight on more than one occasion.

There was a wonderful gymkhana event called musical hats.  You circled until the music stopped, then set off as fast as possible around a distant pole, then back to one fewer poles than people, onto which you put your hat (often whilst galloping past, if you couldn't stop).  If you were competitive, you obviously had your hat off from soon after rounding the far pole.  Would be interesting to write the risk assessment for that one!

I'm fairly sure we went straight to Foxhunter as our first affiliated on ponies in the early 70s.  I think it was about 3'9'', but that may be poor memory or wishful thinking.  Newcomers, which was called Wing Newcomers, I think, came in later.

Interestingly, given the recent debate on prize money, I have recently found a very old rosette for the Gelligaer Hunt hunter trials in 1971.  First prize in the novice was £20!  It was sponsored by Freeman and Son (tobacco merchants). Politically incorrect or what?  A huge (for then) velvet rosette too.  Put me out of all novices on my 14.2 5 yr old pony.

We also only did dressage for our Area (horse) Trials.  There was none otherwise, that I encountered at least.

As I said - things were different then.......


----------



## siennamum (15 November 2013)

oysterbay said:



			Things were different then.  Not better, not worse - just different.

I can remember Open jumping at local shows by car headlight on more than one occasion.

There was a wonderful gymkhana event called musical hats.  You circled until the music stopped, then set off as fast as possible around a distant pole, then back to one fewer poles than people, onto which you put your hat (often whilst galloping past, if you couldn't stop).  If you were competitive, you obviously had your hat off from soon after rounding the far pole.  Would be interesting to write the risk assessment for that one!

I'm fairly sure we went straight to Foxhunter as our first affiliated on ponies in the early 70s.  I think it was about 3'9'', but that may be poor memory or wishful thinking.  Newcomers, which was called Wing Newcomers, I think, came in later.

Interestingly, given the recent debate on prize money, I have recently found a very old rosette for the Gelligaer Hunt hunter trials in 1971.  First prize in the novice was £20!  It was sponsored by Freeman and Son (tobacco merchants). Politically incorrect or what?  A huge (for then) velvet rosette too.  Put me out of all novices on my 14.2 5 yr old pony.

We also only did dressage for our Area (horse) Trials.  There was none otherwise, that I encountered at least.

As I said - things were different then.......
		
Click to expand...

Haha I love this stuff, I had forgotten Wing Newcomers.

I used to properly earn money and prizes, it did make a difference.

My brother won the jumping at Long Buckby village show (unaffiliated), he was awarded the massive cup by the mayor, received a big box of Golden Wonder Crisps as they were based nearby & sponsored the class, as well as decent prize money. He had his picture in the paper. How things have changed.


----------



## Old Bat (15 November 2013)

Maesfen said:



			Sorry, I always understood an oxer did have a lower back rail (but same height as the front rail) so if you viewed it from the side, the shape was a triangle; is that not the case now?  Surely it would be more like a parallel if the back rail was the same height or have they changed all the terms now as well?
		
Click to expand...

I think that a true oxer is a parallel, and a reversed oxer was a hog's back with three sets of wings and poles, front and back same height, middle one higher.

Popsdosh, thanks for that, I remember being dragged out of camp to make up the team but had no real idea of where I was going that time!


----------



## humblepie (15 November 2013)

Wing Newcomers - then there was the Bucks Beginners which was a bit smaller with the final at Bucks County Show I think.  The Godfrey Davis Grade C!

Junior wise - how about the Kerrygold Foxhunter, that would have been circa early70s.  Christy Beaufort and Daily Mail junior opens.    One of the Kerrygold rosettes on my 13.2 NF pony when I was about 12 was one of my proudest rosettes for a long time as we mainly did unaffiliated and so it was a mega achievement alongside the older children on their smart 14.2s. 

and Gosh a hogsback, there is a proper old fashioned fence.  What about a Liverpool which was water trays I think?


----------



## JCWHITE (15 November 2013)

Elizabeth Ann sponsored, Grade C (I think), and Hoechst Foxhunter.
 I have a Foxhunter finalists rosette, 1978, riders lunch before the class at the old Wembley, sat next to M Whitaker!!
Happy memories.


----------



## Sussexbythesea (15 November 2013)

siennamum said:



			This photo is from the late 70's and is the unaffiliated Open SJ at a local show. We just seemed to start jumping at about 1m, sadly that's about my upper limit now:






Click to expand...

I love this picture it is so like my images from my pony dreams and days of reading the older pony books in the 70's


----------



## EventingMum (15 November 2013)

JCWHITE said:



			Elizabeth Ann sponsored, Grade C (I think), and Hoechst Foxhunter.
 I have a Foxhunter finalists rosette, 1978, riders lunch before the class at the old Wembley, sat next to M Whitaker!!
Happy memories.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I remember the Elizabeth Ann Grade C classes and Calor Gas under 25's as well as  Hoechst sponsoring the Foxhunter - I have the rosette shaped shield and went to the lunch in 1980. There was also the Vauxhall Young Show Jumper of the Future which gave lovely trophies which I still have today. I also remember the Talent Spotters but can't remember the sponsor - possibly Sanyo?


----------



## siennamum (15 November 2013)

sussexbythesea said:



			I love this picture it is so like my images from my pony dreams and days of reading the older pony books in the 70's 

Click to expand...

ah, thank you, that was Laddie (he even had an old fashioned name), he would jump the moon


----------



## Goya (15 November 2013)

does anyone remember the Midland Bank series? I jumped in those in my youth. I remember one specifically at Wing, and HRH Princess Anne was there, and I jumped the wrong course. As I jumped the wrong fence I said "B*****" and was told off by the commentator/ Judge. I deserved it.


----------



## humblepie (16 November 2013)

Goya - I remember the Midland Bank sponsorship but not sure of what.  I have one of their lovely rugs.   Must admit didn't win it but acquired it (legitimately I hasten to add).   Can remember as a child spectating at Oxfordshire County Show (no longer runs) and can't remember who but a top show jumper's horse knocked over the timing equipment and he swore, then trotted up to us and apologised for his language!


----------



## siennamum (16 November 2013)

I have pictures of XC fences with the Midland bank Griffin on them - Sure it was Midland Bank. I also competed at the Abbey Life Hunter Trials when the championship was held at Kilsby -  In a black jacket and velvet cap naturally.


----------



## humblepie (16 November 2013)

Siennamum - yes I think the rug I had was from some horse trials near Cirencester.   How about even more obscure - the handy pony competition sponsored by Coca Cola that had qualifiers and went to some championship somewhere.  I did one with a show jumping pony who jumped the strawbales which were supposed to be a "garage" you went into and turned round!

There was quite a range of non horse associated sponsors probably because there was an awful lot less horse equipment etc companies to sponsor things.


----------



## dieseldog (16 November 2013)

humblepie said:



			Siennamum - yes I think the rug I had was from some horse trials near Cirencester.   How about even more obscure - the handy pony competition sponsored by Coca Cola that had qualifiers and went to some championship somewhere.  I did one with a show jumping pony who jumped the strawbales which were supposed to be a "garage" you went into and turned round!

There was quite a range of non horse associated sponsors probably because there was an awful lot less horse equipment etc companies to sponsor things.
		
Click to expand...

And back then Show Jumping was the 2nd most popular sport after football.


----------



## PaddyMonty (18 November 2013)

I dont think there is any comparison between the 60's 70's etc and today. I'm an old duffer who started riding in the early 60's and a few of the changes i feel have had the most impact are.....
1) These days I constantly hear people saying how worried, scared they are or they feel sick. Almost a badge of honour.  Back then you didn't mention this sort of think because the only response you would have got was "just shut up and get on with it or go home". Far too often now I see groups of friends talking each other out of pushing thier boundries despite being perfectly capable of entering bigger classes.
2) We jumped the course in front of us and rode lines or paces that corrected odd distances. ie if the double was tight we would jump it at an angle from close to one wing on first fence to close to opposite wing on second fence giving much more space. If it was long we could come in with more pace or if really long for the horse we were riding then come in very collected and put two strides in.
3) A lot of jumping was learnt out hacking (often no facilities at home).  Any raised obstacle was a jump. Often the approach, takeoff, landing and ground would be very unhelpful but riders and more importantly horse learnt to deal with these issues. Nowadays its all too clinical so when something slightly out of the ordinary appears both horse and rider go to pieces. 

I'm not saying we were better riders back then but we were generally far more experienced at dealing with out of the norm.


----------



## DragonSlayer (18 November 2013)

PaddyMonty said:



			1) These days I constantly hear people saying how worried, scared they are or they feel sick. Almost a badge of honour.  Back then you didn't mention this sort of think because the only response you would have got was "just shut up and get on with it or go home". Far too often now I see groups of friends talking each other out of pushing thier boundries despite being perfectly capable of entering bigger classes.
		
Click to expand...

This bit rings home with me....

On Saturday, I jumped 90cm on my horse in prep for a comp on Sunday that I had to pull from as horse just wasn't 100%... I recall doing this height as a kid (I'm 40 now) and thinking nothing of it, but wonder what's happened in the years inbetween! So many people have said 'don't know how you dare do that height!' Horse got me over it just fine, I didn't fall off and I'm quite proud of myself for doing it, first time in a long time....

I have to shift this negative attitude of 'can't do it' and remove myself from the conversations that have allowed me to question my own capabilities....horse is capable of doing bigger, and so am I!


----------



## Maesfen (18 November 2013)

PaddyMonty, you've hit the nail on the head.


----------



## stencilface (18 November 2013)

Ha, PM. I think I still jump beyond my capabilities (or did when I last jumped) I'm always the one muttering to myself about not being such a wuss and other far more unpc names. It's depressing that I used to jump my veteran 12h over 2'6 and barely jump higher on my 16.1. 

I find hangover gives you confidence, or at least makes you worry more about staying on, and less about the height


----------



## flyingfeet (18 November 2013)

Well I don't consider myself to be that old, but when I was young I would do all the 3ft 9" unaffiliated classes and do very well without ever being on the bit.... however the classes were built as narrow fences, and were often one at a time rather than complex double or triples. This meant that you could get round with courage and kicking!

However compared to say some of the courses built for the Blue Chip qualifiers, you could not get round with this approach! So yes fences were bigger, but if I had a course of uprights I would happily jump 1.20m. If you introduce the requirement for striding and wide fences then I top out at 1.05 BS (because the NC 1.20m high 1.30m wide parallels in a combo make me sqeeeee)


----------



## ester (18 November 2013)

I have a question - as most people didn't have transport and hacked to shows were there actually more horses in a given area? We still have a few village shows about - though about a 3rd of what there were 15 years ago and 15 years ago I remember them being so much busier than it is now- the jumping particularly - now all jumping is likely finished by lunchtime. 

I suspect that 1) people are fussier about ground conditions so seek out a surface? 2)Pony club ponies have fewer expectations put on them during the summer holidays - ie if they had camp that week they won't then go to a show at the weekend? 

Games used to be really busy too and now you get very few people doing them which has resulted in them being dropped by a fair number of shows. Oh and I have seen some shocking course building, the 1.5 stride double being a speciality at times .


----------



## LEC (18 November 2013)

Being old I can answer your question.

1) 10 x more stuff on offer now - there used to be just village shows.
2) Rise of equestrian centres - when I was growing up there was one within 45 minutes and now I can access 3 x indoor, 4 x centres. With this comes all year round competition.
3) Affiliated is much more accessible
4) Rise of unaff championships - everyone wants to qualify for something. Cricklands has the laughable title of Championships of Great Britain but hey they are rammed. Trailblazers has also made a good business out of this.
5) Decline of showing - no one is that interested in showing. The quality is terrible at local shows and yet it used to be very good. So many showing societies now and pretty much a category for anything afilliated.
6) People expect more than a crappy field. Shows with surfaces seem to be much more popular.


----------



## ester (18 November 2013)

lol you're not old, just were doing horsey things way before I was! 

We have a glut of champs of great britain jackets around us.... frequently worn by those who were only watching


----------

