# 'Red Tractor' farm cruelty - can you believe the farmers defence?



## canteron (14 February 2012)

I don't know whether anyone has seen, but there has been another farm, this time in Norfolk, where they have documented appalling abuse to pigs, basically hitting, beating, all sorts of vile animal cruelty.  This is particularly shocking as this farm is signed up to the Red Tractor Standards.

On BBC4 Farming World today they had the farmer on, who thought this was a good defence.....

The pig in question had been clubbed to death with Iron Bars - which too a long time and was pretty barbaric.  The farmer said the story was that the pig had broken its leg, so they were trying to put it out of its misery????  He said that he didn't let them use his shot gun  so they had no alternative way to kill the animal.

Anyone else feel this asks more questions than it answers?


----------



## mon (14 February 2012)

A sharp blow to the skull can kill without too much stress if done correctly ministry books quote this as a recommended way with lambs and piglets, whilst I can't see it done it happens with small animals, larger get shot but do need a licence, other will split throats again needs doing right, farmers don't have access to lethal injections, but farms need someone appointed to humanely kill poorly stock.


----------



## eahotson (14 February 2012)

There was a lot more to it than that I think.The Red Tractor scheme also make most of their inspections as announced.Suprisingly they never find much wrong.


----------



## mon (14 February 2012)

All aspects of animal keeping will have a few 'bad apples' pigs are probably most likely to be mis treated but 99% of farmers are good with animals as poorly animals are bad news. We pay to be in Farm Assured but wonder whether it is worth it.


----------



## Alec Swan (15 February 2012)

The owner of the farm,  a Stephen Brown,  has this morning been found dead.

There are no further details,  but it would seem that as the police are not viewing his death,  as being suspicious,  the conclusion to be drawn is that he took his own life.

Regardless of the rights or the wrongs,  RIP Stephen.

a.


----------



## Dirtymare (15 February 2012)

Having watched Mr Brown being interviewed on Look East the other night, it was obvious the poor man was absolutely devastated about what had occured. Truely awful events have occured...............

Sympathies to the Brown family.
RIP Stephen Brown.


----------



## BBH (15 February 2012)

Sorry state of affairs all around.


----------



## YasandCrystal (15 February 2012)

mon said:



			All aspects of animal keeping will have a few 'bad apples' pigs are probably most likely to be mis treated but 99% of farmers are good with animals as poorly animals are bad news. We pay to be in Farm Assured but wonder whether it is worth it.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with this. The problem I think lies in the greedy supermarkets who are ever cutting the farmers paltry profits. It's expensive to keep animals well - it's pretty labour intensive, yet the supermarkets always seem happy to screw the most profit they can by underpaying the 'grower'. It was the same case with chickens.
I had a friend with links to a pig farm (not the one in question) and she said the conditions did look horrible, overcrowded pens and lots of filth. The staff felt for the poor pigs and that the slaughter house was a welcome release for them.
Blame the supermarkets and 'us' the consumers for buying cheap meats and driving prices down.


----------



## mrussell (15 February 2012)

Poor, poor man..I really feel for his family.  RIP Stephen Brown.


----------



## BBH (15 February 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			I agree with this. The problem I think lies in the greedy supermarkets who are ever cutting the farmers paltry profits. It's expensive to keep animals well - it's pretty labour intensive, yet the supermarkets always seem happy to screw the most profit they can by underpaying the 'grower'. It was the same case with chickens.
I had a friend with links to a pig farm (not the one in question) and she said the conditions did look horrible, overcrowded pens and lots of filth. The staff felt for the poor pigs and that the slaughter house was a welcome release for them.
Blame the supermarkets and 'us' the consumers for buying cheap meats and driving prices down.
		
Click to expand...


I totally agree with this sentiment in that if we want quality we have to be prepared to pay for it however, lack of profit is no excuse for cruelty in any fashion whether your margins are squeezed or not.

I do feel sorry for this chap though as he may have been totally unaware of how his workers were treating the animals. If he was complicit in it well thats another story and given the chap has died i'll leave it at that.


----------



## eahotson (15 February 2012)

R.I.P Stephen.Very sorry and for the family.Curiously enough today was reading an article in the BBC Food Magazine about the truth of the BOGOF offers.They were saying that the supermarkets were basically screwing the supliers.There is suposed to be a government bill coming out soon which hopefully will hopefully stop the worst of this abuse (of the supliers by the supermarkets).It will come as suprise to people that the supermarkets are opposing it.No idea why!


----------



## canteron (15 February 2012)

Really sorry about the poor farmer.  

I have several pig farmer 'friends' and am convinced that the financial pressures of the job are making them cut corners and making unethical things seem normal.  You can almost see them becoming harder and more 'farmer grumpy' than before.

Whatever, how do we put pressure on the Supermarkets so that it becomes in their financial interest to insist and pay for good welfare standards.  It seems that everyone has so many problems at the moment that a bit of animal cruelty is acceptable?


----------



## Amaranta (15 February 2012)

Poor farmer, whilst I was as disgusted as the next person at the cruelty shown on the video, my heart goes out to this farmer.

I agree the supermarkets put enormous pressure on their suppliers, the only way to help to stop them is to not buy your meat etc from them.  I am lucky however, there are several smallholders in my area who keep us supplied, not only does it taste better but it is not that much more expensive either.  I am aware however that not everyone is as lucky as us in that respect.


----------



## stencilface (15 February 2012)

Awful all round really RIP Stephen 

Thing is, the way things are set up, its going to be very difficult to see prices go up isn't it.  People expect meat these days, every week - like its a right, not a privilege to be able to afford it.  Surely in time gone by, you had meat if you could afford it, and saved it for special occasions, hence probably the tradition in some cultures (probably used to be in ours) of slaughtering an animal for guests.

With unemployment rising, people cannot afford food as it is (so they think) if prices go up, there will be uproar from the great unwashed.  If things went back to the simple days, shorter chain, meat comes from local farms - there are farms close to urban centres, surely it would be cheaper, without the travel (fuel - which is ever rising) costs, and all the middle men involved.


----------



## BeesKnees (15 February 2012)

canteron said:



			Whatever, how do we put pressure on the Supermarkets so that it becomes in their financial interest to insist and pay for good welfare standards.
		
Click to expand...

Stop buying 'misery meat'! Care about where the meat has come from.

 It's perfectly possible to buy free range, outdoor reared, and higher welfare  meat at reasonable prices at supermarkets like Asda. Buy cheaper cuts of free range meat and put them in a casserole / slow cooker instead of the premium cuts. 

How many people now strip a chicken carcass properly rather than just eating the breast and a bit of leg and then chucking it away? Use the bits for stir fry or boil up the bones for stock and make a delicious thick soup with the leftover bits of chicken and lots of veg. It's so easy! 

Eat sustainable fish like mackerel. It's cheap.

There are many good farmers out there trying to keep animal welfare at the centre of what they do. They deserve our support.


----------



## BBH (16 February 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			Stop buying 'misery meat'! Care about where the meat has come from.

 It's perfectly possible to buy free range, outdoor reared, and higher welfare  meat at reasonable prices at supermarkets like Asda. Buy cheaper cuts of free range meat and put them in a casserole / slow cooker instead of the premium cuts. 

How many people now strip a chicken carcass properly rather than just eating the breast and a bit of leg and then chucking it away? Use the bits for stir fry or boil up the bones for stock and make a delicious thick soup with the leftover bits of chicken and lots of veg. It's so easy! 


Eat sustainable fish like mackerel. It's cheap.

There are many good farmers out there trying to keep animal welfare at the centre of what they do. They deserve our support.
		
Click to expand...


Fantastic post.


----------



## Amymay (16 February 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			. The problem I think lies in the greedy supermarkets who are ever cutting the farmers paltry profits. It's expensive to keep animals well - it's pretty labour intensive, yet the supermarkets always seem happy to screw the most profit they can by underpaying the 'grower'. It was the same case with chickens.
		
Click to expand...

How is this an excuse for calculated cruelty and beating a pig to death with an iron bar?????


----------



## Archangel (16 February 2012)

People with a cruel streak who get a kick from it... where will they get a job?  Exactly.


----------



## mrussell (16 February 2012)

RebelRebel said:



			People with a cruel streak who get a kick from it... where will they get a job?  Exactly.   



Click to expand...

If I had my way, on the side of the motorway, picking up litter in a boiler suit marked "HM Prisons" and when those jobs have all gone....  maybe in a cage having shampoo forced up their backsides.  You know, so they feel like they are giving something back to society...


----------



## Aces_High (16 February 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			Stop buying 'misery meat'! Care about where the meat has come from.

 It's perfectly possible to buy free range, outdoor reared, and higher welfare  meat at reasonable prices at supermarkets like Asda. Buy cheaper cuts of free range meat and put them in a casserole / slow cooker instead of the premium cuts. 

How many people now strip a chicken carcass properly rather than just eating the breast and a bit of leg and then chucking it away? Use the bits for stir fry or boil up the bones for stock and make a delicious thick soup with the leftover bits of chicken and lots of veg. It's so easy! 

Eat sustainable fish like mackerel. It's cheap.

There are many good farmers out there trying to keep animal welfare at the centre of what they do. They deserve our support.
		
Click to expand...

Agree Agree Agree - waste drives me mad and people who are not even slightly interested as to where their food has come from.  **Dashes off before running into a full Parlimentary Debate which will require me to be here all night **


----------



## Aces_High (16 February 2012)

I would also like to add, I feel desperately sad for the poor farmer's children, wife, friends and family.  Support and love to them through this horrid time.


----------



## JanetGeorge (16 February 2012)

Aces_High said:



			I would also like to add, I feel desperately sad for the poor farmer's children, wife, friends and family.  Support and love to them through this horrid time.
		
Click to expand...

Ditto!  You can be sure that since the story broke regarding the cruelty, the family will have been subjected to some pretty hateful (and frightening) phone calls, mail etc.

We have no way of knowing to what degree the farmer was responsible for pigs being ill-treated by staff - obviously an employer IS ultimately responsible for his employees' actions.  He - after all - hires them, trains them, supervises them and sets the rules.  But his wife and children will have suffered enormously even before farmer took his life - the children will have been given stick at school and from their friends, etc.


----------



## Ibblebibble (16 February 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			Ditto!  You can be sure that since the story broke regarding the cruelty, the family will have been subjected to some pretty hateful (and frightening) phone calls, mail etc.

We have no way of knowing to what degree the farmer was responsible for pigs being ill-treated by staff - obviously an employer IS ultimately responsible for his employees' actions.  He - after all - hires them, trains them, supervises them and sets the rules.  But his wife and children will have suffered enormously even before farmer took his life - the children will have been given stick at school and from their friends, etc.
		
Click to expand...

very well put JG.
as a friend of an ex pig farmer i can tell you how these things happen, the price of pork is pushed lower and lower by the supermarkets meaning that the farmer is spending more on wages and pig feed than he is making, so he starts to cut corners, knowledgable staff are laid off in favour of cheap and often foreign labour, feed is sourced as cheaply as possible and rations are limited.
The suicide rate in farmers in higher than in any other group in society apart from teenagers


----------



## mon (16 February 2012)

With the red tractor status removed over night his pigs became a liability where are they going to be sold? Got to be fed and no Market for them, pigs would be produced on contract and can't just take them to Market.


----------



## vienna (16 February 2012)

Some of these videos and photos dont make nice viewing.
I am in support of farmers and they like most people in todays climate do get it very tough.
Thing i if my cat/dog/horse broke its leg and I clubbed it to death as could not/would not afford vet the animal protesters would be out in force.
I live in the city! 
You know sometimes no matter how big your ego/pride if you cannot afford to farm and take into account fallen stock its time to admit defeat , sell up, move on. NOT cut costs at expense of animal welfare.
NO MAN farmer or factory worker is above the law.
People are quick on here to say PTS if you cannot afford horse, they NEVER say dispatch yourself.
Food for thought...literally.


----------



## Echo Bravo (16 February 2012)

^^^^^ Hear hear well said.


----------



## BBH (17 February 2012)

Do you know I've read more about the abuse on his farm and its really disgusting. He really took his eye off the ball and went around with them shut if he knew nothing of what was going on.

Really makes you want to be veggie. 

I think Britain is losing its mantel as a nation of animal lovers.


----------



## YasandCrystal (17 February 2012)

amymay said:



			How is this an excuse for calculated cruelty and beating a pig to death with an iron bar?????
		
Click to expand...

It's not an excuse for anything. What I was saying is that alot of animal cruelty in the form of 'poor conditions' is price driven. If farmers pay for cheap labour then they may attract careless cruel workers - of course that is not right and of course the farmer has a duty to supervise and be vigilant, but cruelty happens even when you least expect it. Look at poor Anne the elephant - who would believe someone could be so cruel to such a gentle giant?

If the public start REALLY caring then there will be more 'happy farms' and the big supermarkets will have to start respecting the poor farmers by paying a decent price for the meat.


----------



## Daddy_Long_Legs (17 February 2012)

God help his family, they will be going through an awful time at the moment. My thoughts are with them.


----------



## MagicMelon (19 February 2012)

Having seen what is known as one of the 'best' pig farms in my area, I was pretty shocked by what I saw - mothers kept in basically a cage where they can't move sideways / turn round etc. I believe this is so she doesnt crush her piglets. I believe they're only in their 'cage' for a few weeks/months but wow what a horrid life!  The young pigs are kept in rooms with no windows and horrendous ventilation (the heat and smell makes your eyes water!), of course they're kept like this to exacting temperatures etc. to aid rapid growth. Again though, what a horrid life for them - there's not one part of it which is natural.  Very sad to see to be honest even though these pigs were kept perfectly clean and were probably looked after fine.  That's life for many intensively farmed animals sadly!  But I dont agree at all with ending their lives in anything but the quickest / most humane way possible.


----------



## lhotse (19 February 2012)

I work for one of the major supermarkets. They exploit everyone, from farmers to children in third world countries, to their own staff.
I refuse to shop there for my meat and veg. I buy all my fruit and veg from my local greengrocer who seeks the best and most local produce he can find. My potatoes come direct from the farm just up the road via my local agricultural merchant.

My meat comes from my excellent local butcher who only stocks rare breed, freerange pork from named suppliers. He knows where all his beef comes from, what breed and even the cheese I buy there is from a local producer, who makes single gloucester from his herd of pedigree gloucester cattle. My eggs come from my own freerange hens.

My butter comes straight from the farm via my friend who has the cheese stall at the local farmers markets. The farmers market means I can buy venison sausages from deer off the local estate, freerange chickens from 4 miles up the road and lamb from the same place. All this food is totally traceable, I can go and see the chickens and lambs if I so wish. It's produced by farmers with a real passion about stock management and the continuation of our rare breeds. The flavour speaks for itself.

The surprising thing about shopping like this is that I am actually saving myself money as well, for too long the supermarkets have led us to believe that they offer the best prices, when in actual fact they are more expensive.

So, vote with your feet. Shop locally from small independant suppliers, support your local farmers market. Make it known that you will not tolerate bland intensively raised pork and chicken.


----------



## Milanesa (19 February 2012)

Ihotse- here here!


----------



## Miss L Toe (19 February 2012)

Even before supermarket powers, there have been similar cases, worse than this, there will always be cruelty in farming and with any animal keepers. It is something to do with human nature.


----------



## mon (19 February 2012)

Sadly agree, also always be murderers and burglars


----------



## PRE3 (20 February 2012)

lhotse said:



			I work for one of the major supermarkets. They exploit everyone, from farmers to children in third world countries, to their own staff.
I refuse to shop there for my meat and veg. I buy all my fruit and veg from my local greengrocer who seeks the best and most local produce he can find. My potatoes come direct from the farm just up the road via my local agricultural merchant.

My meat comes from my excellent local butcher who only stocks rare breed, freerange pork from named suppliers. He knows where all his beef comes from, what breed and even the cheese I buy there is from a local producer, who makes single gloucester from his herd of pedigree gloucester cattle. My eggs come from my own freerange hens.

My butter comes straight from the farm via my friend who has the cheese stall at the local farmers markets. The farmers market means I can buy venison sausages from deer off the local estate, freerange chickens from 4 miles up the road and lamb from the same place. All this food is totally traceable, I can go and see the chickens and lambs if I so wish. It's produced by farmers with a real passion about stock management and the continuation of our rare breeds. The flavour speaks for itself.

The surprising thing about shopping like this is that I am actually saving myself money as well, for too long the supermarkets have led us to believe that they offer the best prices, when in actual fact they are more expensive.

So, vote with your feet. Shop locally from small independant suppliers, support your local farmers market. Make it known that you will not tolerate bland intensively raised pork and chicken.
		
Click to expand...

Well said


----------



## jendie (20 February 2012)

What an awful story. I do feel for the farmer's family.

Pigs are fantastic animals. We have two and they are as intelligent and affectionate as any dog or horse I've ever owned. They are easily trained and are naturally very clean. Their treatment in factory farms is atrocious. I agree the supermarkets have to take a lot of the blame. They cut the profit margins so much that pig rearing is barely worth a farmer's time. Humanely pts an injured animal would be an expense many would consider extravagant> we have to blame ourselves.


----------



## Alec Swan (20 February 2012)

lhotse said:



			.............
		
Click to expand...

An excellent post.  Supermarkets,  despite the bilge which they dish out,  are driven by profit,  they vie with each other,  they buy as cheaply as they can,  and those who suffer are their suppliers and customers.  The High Street or Farm Gate trader relies upon his reputation,  a reputation which supermarkets don't have (well not one that's worth preserving!!).

Alec.


----------



## FRESHMAN (21 February 2012)

I agree with the problems regarding the battle our good farmers are facing. & as long as the consumers are apathetic we will have no change. Actually I will re phrase that. Conditions will get worse. If we do not vote with our feet against animal conditions whilst alive, & ending up on our plates, the decent farmers will have no option other than to give up. They will be REPLACED by real hard nosed barstewards that do not give a flying fig. Just like the customer at the end of the chain. This is a never ending circle & it is spinning down hill fast. It will not be long before we are on a par with Countries like China.  Why can people not understand that if you wish to eat meat. Have a bloody conscience. (sp) ps I am not veggie but I do care about the quality of any animals life, & death.


----------



## Trinity Fox (21 February 2012)

I have not read every reply but I have to say it is very sad for this farmer to take his own life because of this.

I also have to say it is still not right for animals being treated in this way,my dads family was pretty poor when he was young he got a part time job in the slaughterhouse and even then he says there was a couple of wicked people working there who used to revel in the pain of the animals and enjoy mistreating them.
I feel that if you are the type of person who wants to abuse animals this may be a trade you are attracted to, this type of behaviour has happened several times if there was a law brought in that said all slaughterhouses had to have cctv in operation that was checked it would stamp this out this would also allow consumers to feel better about what they were buying.

It is nice to be able to now where all your produce comes from many of us in the country are able to do this but for most of the population this is just not possible.
Also whoever commented on most farmers caring for animals I have to say where we are there are several who really do not look after their animals especially if one is down or ill they just leave them, my parents have removed or looked after several animals after contacting farmer who did nothing they were no longer willing to watch them die a lingering death in the field.
I have stock next to my horses fields and they dont even bother to pick up the dead stock.


----------



## BBH (21 February 2012)

Whilst I agree with all the sentiments about animal welfare and the greedy supermarkets the biggest hindrance I can see progressing these issues is that the poor have to be fed. There will always be a huge market for very cheap food at any cost and with no consideration as to how its reared / produced. For some people education isn't going to work when their sole interest is feeding themselves on a few pounds a week.

I am not sure how we would get around that tbh.


----------



## mon (21 February 2012)

Control population growth and building on productive farm land.


----------



## perfect11s (22 February 2012)

mon said:



			Control population growth and building on productive farm land.
		
Click to expand...

 Oh dont be so sensible !!!!!  yes and I totally  agree but  sadly its a nettle they wont grasp , we could go along way to improve things  but even sensible policys like cutting welfare are stoped before they get off the ground by the handwringing liberal elite,
 so we pay for the feckless and work shy to sit around breeding   and import hard working motivated foreign labour to do the work .....


----------



## mon (22 February 2012)

D
Isn't think I was sensible! But then I do come from a small family, mum only child, dads brother killed as teenager, so only child in my eyes, sister no family and I only have one son, so what is earnt not split in to small factions on inheritance! And wouldn't know what a holiday is, who would look after all our animals? No wish as a farmer to get large enough to employ anybody as proved not all trustworty, not worth hassle.


----------



## Magicmillbrook (22 February 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			I agree with this. The problem I think lies in the greedy supermarkets who are ever cutting the farmers paltry profits. It's expensive to keep animals well - it's pretty labour intensive, yet the supermarkets always seem happy to screw the most profit they can by underpaying the 'grower'. It was the same case with chickens.
I had a friend with links to a pig farm (not the one in question) and she said the conditions did look horrible, overcrowded pens and lots of filth. The staff felt for the poor pigs and that the slaughter house was a welcome release for them.
Blame the supermarkets and 'us' the consumers for buying cheap meats and driving prices down.
		
Click to expand...

Here here


----------



## bobbydazzler (23 February 2012)

I had heard that some animal rights activists had secured themselves some part time work on this farm, and that it was them carrying out these acts and recording them.
I don't know if this is true, but they surely must have a huge amount of willpower to stand by and record this footage as i most certainly could not have stood by and watched.


----------



## hackneylass2 (24 February 2012)

Maybe if they had intervened before things got to the stage that they did, it would have been to the benefit of all?

Jendie, Humanely destroy (pts not same thing) an extravagance? Oh my! Surely no human with an ounce of empathy would have turned a blind eye to such cruelty.  

In any business you can't throw good money after bad, its been a case of   'diversify or die' for many farmers for years. Same as other businesses in other sectors, its a harsh climate.


----------



## nortonl (27 July 2012)

hackneylass2 said:



			Maybe if they had intervened before things got to the stage that they did, it would have been to the benefit of all?.
		
Click to expand...

By waiting a couple of months go gather enough evidence that the crimes were undeniable, it was possible to secure convictions against those responsible - putting an end to years of such behaviour.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2179449/Thug-workers-battered-pigs-death-metal-bars-plastic-pipes-hell-hole-farm-face-jail.html


----------



## BBH (27 July 2012)

nortonl said:



			By waiting a couple of months go gather enough evidence that the crimes were undeniable, it was possible to secure convictions against those responsible - putting an end to years of such behaviour.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2179449/Thug-workers-battered-pigs-death-metal-bars-plastic-pipes-hell-hole-farm-face-jail.html

Click to expand...

I hope they go down for a very long time.

These people do a disservice for all the legitimate farmers who do care about welfare as its hard for the public to know who does raise ethical meat.


----------



## Venevidivici (28 July 2012)

I echo the sentiments above but there are some individuals who will always find an outlet for their twisted evil acts. They probably grew up from someone like I knew at junior school,a boy who scooped my tadpoles out of the baby bathtub in the garden,dropped them on the drive and pressed lit matches against them I was 7 and remember it to this day-ran inside,crying,to tell 
my mum. She sent him home&told his parents. The people at this pig farm are like the ones who microwave kittens,throw dogs from moving cars,hack horses in fields to bits etc etc. They often graduate onto harming people. Low intelligence is often a factor and an upbringing indifferent to pain and suffering of others. My sympathies to the farmer's family and the pigs.


----------



## Pale Rider (28 July 2012)

At the end of the day what went on this farm was the responsibility of the farmer, there is no getting away from that. However, it is not always possible to know what each individual member of staff or groups of staff even may be doing. Occasionally, a 'bad apple' can act in a way which may cause the destruction of an otherwise satisfactory state of affairs. Even so the buck stops with 'the farmer'.

For most ordinary people, to suddenly become the focus of such adverse publicity is stressful enough, but to couple this with the potential loss of a business, hard to maintain even in good times, adds to the burden. Farmers, who often struggle in isolation, taking their own life is frequently the result. A sad and desperate situation, my thoughts and sympathy are with the family.

Recently, the lot of the primary producer, has been high profile. The role of the major supermarkets often becomes the target of those trying to change things.

To balance, cheap food a demand of the consumer, a realistic price for the producer together with a margin for the processors and subseqently a profit for the supermarket is difficult. Particularly when the whole chain is left in the hands of what we call 'The Market'.

The Market, as we have seen in other spheres is a poor way of doing business, as far form working as it should, is constantly beset by speculators who influence 'the market' both by legitimate and illigitimate means. To the detriment of everyone who has to put their trust in and rely on 'the market'.

In agriculture particularly, there have been numerous attempts by successive governments to somehow, regulate and provide a fair and balanced situation, where the production, distribution and consumption of our most basic requirement, food, is concerned. None of which have been fit for purpose and become increasingly so as 'the market' is left to its self.

Farm incomes are heavily subsidized in many sectors (not the pig industry, I believe). Which result in feast for some and famine for others. Supermarkets make huge profits. The taxpayer/consumer is being hit twice, in effect, and yet still primary producers are facing hardship.

For the primary producer there is a cost of production, which can be measured, therefore, if anyone wants to buy these products be it milk, pig meat, eggs, barley, wheat whatever, there should be a guaranteed minimum price. What occurs after that is down to the processors and supermarkets and lastly the consumer who can at least, vote with their feet.


----------



## Alec Swan (28 July 2012)

Pale Rider,

a basically well put together post,  though influenced by rather emotive and simplistic observations.

"The Market",  as you rightly say,  is a poor way for us to mete out a norm or a balance,  but the problem is,  that's all that we have.  Installing protectionism will open the floodgates to yet more corruption,  and those who farm would very soon be in the position of the accused (I farm,  and I speak from experience)!

Specifically with the dairy industry,  we in the UK are wringing out a dry sponge.  The Continent have ploughed in massive investment into their dairy industries,  and we simply can't compete with their supplied bulk prices of milk;  it's vital that we learn how to,  though.  We cannot allow our dairy industry to die.  We will be held to ransom,  and believe me,  WE WILL.

The Common Market,  as it was,  was a stroke of genius,  on the part of someone.  The EU (as the CM became) has been an unmitigated disaster,  but that's a debate for another time.

The simple facts,  are this;  

The Supermarkets,  the controlling and generally callous major buyers, support British farming,  but only because it will give them a degree of PC value,  and it would follow that they end up with Brownie points,  from the British public.

Our basic food can be sourced abroad,  and at a percentage of the cost of our own production costs.  The problem with that,  is that if we don't "Protect" our own capabilities,  then we end up being held to ransom,  by those who do.

Right,  back to the theme of this thread;  with the pressures which Supermarkets are under,  as they compete with each other to show their shareholders ever greater profits,  they are bound to drive down the buying in costs.  That's a fact,  and one which we cannot ignore.  

Sooooooo,  with our buyers driving down their costs,  which means an arterial bleed for the supplier,  then the smaller suppliers will cut corners,  turn their backs on humanity (and their livestock),  and attempt a survival package.  There will be casualties,  two legged and four.  I wish that it was otherwise,  but it isn't.

I apologise for the tirade,  but it's a subject which occupies much of my thinking time!

Who do you see as responsible?  I think that it's a matter of collective guilt.

Yours was a very good post,  and I only wish that more would at least _THINK_ about it.

Alec.


----------



## Miss L Toe (28 July 2012)

I was in agriculture in the  1960/70's "glory days" when the mantra was production, and more production.
Even in those days of guaranteed income there were welfare cases due to farmers not making profit, ie income did not cover expenditure, this causes stress.


----------



## happyhunter123 (28 July 2012)

The cruelty shown here is needless cruelty. Normally, I don't trust these animal rights videos-their aim, is after all to persuade people to give up animal products and they will do anything to try and get people to do this. But the practice at this farm is shocking. There is no excuse to kill pigs like that (for very young piglets hitting them on the head may be relatively painless, but for larger pigs like that this is a cruel method). Why not just invest in a humane bolt gun? It would do the job quickly, easily and painlessly. I don't doubt that ill pigs need to be killed, it's just the way in which you do it.


----------



## Pale Rider (28 July 2012)

Alec, 

Thanks for your comments, appreciated.

Two themes running through this thread at the moment, the first one being the cruelty issue.

There will always be incidents like this where an animal or animals in the system will be subjected to overt cruelty on occasion, no matter how well run the establishment.

An example I have first hand experience of is this. When I was an agricultural student in the 1970's a tutor at the college was sacked for hitting sows with an iron bar. There was no reason for this other than the man enjoyed causing pain. He was exposed by some students who had seen what was happening and reported it to the college authorities. This was a well known and highly respected place and is still high profile today. Welfare was high on the list of priorities, yet this man slipped through. On the up side he hadn't been there long, but no one knew where he went after that.
The point is that these people are always about and do these sort of things and are rarely prosecuted.

I know it is a long time since the demise of the Marketing Boards and prices guaranteed, but we are now far more sophisticated as an industry and society at large. I feel that the corruption you fear would be and could be policed effectively. There will always be those up for some fiddle or other, it's going on now in all spheres and always will. Only when it becomes politically expedient does it get high profile. Highlighting benefit fraud, when you want to cut benefits, or bank frauds when you want to tax or reorganize banks.

With regard to buyers driving down prices in the face of cheaper imports from the EU and perhaps elsewhere. You cannot drive the price below the cost of production, and expect the producer to carry on. It hasn't happened in any other industry and it shouldn't in agriculture. This has happened so far because farmers to some extent are subsidized which gives buyers more opportunity to push down on prices. 

If the dairy industry cannot compete with imported fresh milk with all the additional transport costs, then could it really be allowed to continue? My argument would be yes, it could, because realistically imported milk would be difficult to supply consistently at a cheap price. One only has to look at mushroom imports and drastic price fluctuations when the weather is bad in the Irish Sea.

Protectionism does exist on the continent to some extent and is tolerated by Governments. For example supermarkets in France have restrictions on certain items they are allowed to sell, to protect small retailers.

I know you say that the current system is the only one we've got, but we have had other systems in the past, and believe me, we will have different in the future. It will be interesting to see how things progress.


----------



## Pale Rider (28 July 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			I was in agriculture in the  1960/70's "glory days" when the mantra was production, and more production.
Even in those days of guaranteed income there were welfare cases due to farmers not making profit, ie income did not cover expenditure, this causes stress.
		
Click to expand...

This causes bankruptcy, which is the fate of any other business which cannot compete. Farmers can at least sell up if they cannot make a living.


----------



## Miss L Toe (28 July 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			.... "bankruptcy ... "which is the fate of any other business which cannot compete. Farmers can at least sell up if they cannot make a living.
		
Click to expand...

Its not all that easy to go bankrupt, this only occurs when someone has no assets, and if one is 56 years old, like the average farmer,  an uncertain future beckons. Only  the young and the reckless can afford to go bankrupt. Anyway it does not happen that one day all is well and the next day all is finished. in business the future is uncertain, and most people hang on in the hope that things will improve.


----------



## Pale Rider (28 July 2012)

Farming, is in some ways unique in that there is value in the farm itself, in some ways that is what allows people to carry on, but, when the overdraft or loans can no longer be serviced then bankruptcy is the inevitable result. The young and reckless remark is not really relevant. Bankruptcy is not a lifestyle choice. It's what happens when your business is no longer viable. You sell up, or someone does it for you.
Farmers are to some extent shielded by the subsidy payments they get, but they need to be viable at least.


----------



## Dobiegirl (28 July 2012)

Dont forget the last foot and mouth outbreak was in pigs where someone was cutting corners.


----------



## Honey08 (29 July 2012)

What exactly does the red tractor symbol mean?  I don't generally pay any attention to it when shopping, I always understood it to be to do with farmers getting a fair deal, and nothing to do with them treating their animals well, but I am probably wrong!  I only buy the freedom food ranges if I shop at a supermarket anyway.


----------



## Alec Swan (31 July 2012)

Honey08 said:



			What exactly does the red tractor symbol mean? ...............
		
Click to expand...

Basically it means that the producers have abided by all the rules (except where they've been unable to,  and then they can apply for a never-yet-refused-dispensation ),  they've only ever used sanitised Kleenex tissues to wipe the bottoms of all livestock,  that every single living creature has been given a good night kiss,  and that tears were shed when it went of to the slaughter house.  

In short,  it's a load of meaningless old bollox.  It's an attempt,  inspired by the Supermarkets,  I suspect,  to instil confidence in an ever more cynical,  and now better educated buying British public. 

Alec.


----------



## Honey08 (31 July 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			In short,  it's a load of meaningless old bollox.  It's an attempt,  inspired by the Supermarkets,  I suspect,  to instil confidence in an ever more cynical,  and now better educated buying British public. 

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Lol!  Thanks Alec - thats what I thought!  Means  nothing.


----------

