# King of Diamonds Irish draught



## Shortcut (17 October 2009)

Do any of you know anything about this stallion? I have found some stuff on the internet about him and they all say the same thing. I was once told that his off spring are known to have navicular? Is this true?

Has he produced good jumping horses? Any information greatly recieved, I'm just about to aquire an irish gelding with that stallion in his breeding, I'm getting him all the same as I am in love!!!


----------



## Clodagh (17 October 2009)

Well thats funny but I had heard that my mare wasn't bought by a lady that had her vetted and everything as she heard the navicular story and was worried! I then bought her - the lady that pulled out sent me a copy of the vet report whcih was nice of her.
I think he is best known for his jumpers, you see a lot of them out hunting. Lovely horses usually, easy going and bold.
Edited to say there was no mention of poor feet in the vetting.


----------



## Ladylina83 (17 October 2009)

I've not come across this Navic story before - just used an ID stallion and did quite a bit of research before hand. It was my understanding that when a breeder advertised a stallion "not from King of Diamonds blood lines" it was due to him being very popular when trying to preserve the breed so there are quite alot of his stock out there - hense you wouldn't want to put a KOD mare to a KOD stallion ie interbreed. But there must be a reason why he has so much stock around .... 

This is just my understanding I might be wrong.


----------



## Shortcut (17 October 2009)

I have done a bit more research and No website I have found about him mentions any navicular or bone fault, I wonder if this is just a worry? 

I don't think people would have used him if this is so? He has alot of stock, and he looked to be a influential stallion to the breed?


----------



## no_no_nanette (17 October 2009)

I have never heard any stories about KoD having or passing on navicular - as the OP says, because he appears in so very, very many ID pedigrees, it can be seen as an advantage to have other classic ID stallions in your breeding. The danger otherwise is that the breeding lines become too narrow, and if there are any inheritable risks, they may become exaggerated down through the generations.  

King of Diamonds was so widely used as he was himself an outstanding jumper, and consistently threw highly competitive offsping.  Even more surprising if you think about the numbers of unregistered/mediocre and poor mares that would have been put to him.  He has had an incredibly positive influence on the breeding of Irish Sports Horses, with numerous first and second generation offspring jumping at national and international levels; his son Diamond Lad was also a famous begetter of excellent broodmares who are now rarer than hen's teeth in Ireland and priced accordingly, as I'm finding out!!  So all in all, the great KoD is one that you can be very pleased to have in your boy's pedigree!


----------



## Shortcut (17 October 2009)

Thanks Rufusbluemoon you have given me some great info! I love this forum, so much interesting stuff popps up 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I have never looked up this breed before and I'm finding really interesting!


----------



## Nailed (17 October 2009)

crackin horse. produces some fantastic off spring. never heard of the nav rumour...

that seems to be the general consensus. x


----------



## millitiger (17 October 2009)

lovely horse, lovely jump.

most horses with ID in them now seem to go back to KoD as i think he and his sons have been busy boys!!

most KoD blood now is so dilute that there is a huge variety in type, ability etc in horses with him in their breeding


----------



## glenruby (17 October 2009)

Yes as rufusbluemoon has said, KOD was a prolific sire f jumpers, successful stallions and also broodmare sire. Its known to be an excellent jumping line. As has been said, its because he appears inso many pedigrees that breeders state "not from KOD lines" when advertising stock. Ive never heard of him being known to sire horses who develop navicular - despite having seen/ridden/known of hundreds of horses descending from those lines.


----------



## Simsar (17 October 2009)

King of Diamonds by Errigal RID Ex Ruby ISH by True boy ISH 












Fantasic sire. He was chestnut colour,bred by the O'neills born in 1962 at the Slyguff stud Co Carlow. Produced by John and Mary Hutchinson of Kilkenney and became a grade A show jumper. Then went back to Slyguff stud where he was a very successful stallion in the 70's and 80's. When he died in 1991 aged 29 he had 34 descendant ID stallions and was the premier sire of show jumpers in Ireland. Never heard the navicular thing though.


----------



## Puzzled (17 October 2009)

We have one of his grandaughters (by Candle King). She is his double in looks (quite scary how alike they are!!) She herself jumped to grade A level with us (we bought her as a 2 year old and she'll be 19 next time). We were offered a substantial amount for her week old foal last year by someone desperate to get a filly with KOD lines that was also out of a proven competition mare. Would definately buy another brood mare with KOD lines!


----------



## shirleyno2 (17 October 2009)

Which socities would he grade with today!!!!!! Also Clover Hill. I'd love tp present a clone of them to the stallion judges of today.........


----------



## Simsar (17 October 2009)

Because of the TB so close up in there pedigree they would have to go forward for IDSH register not RID.


----------



## Simsar (17 October 2009)

Please have a look at Springfield Symphony he has distant KOD bloodlines.

http://www.springfieldstud.com/Springfield-Symphony-Eventing-Sport-Horse-Stallion


----------



## diamondbelle (18 August 2013)

i have had a king of diamonds mare for 12 years she has been and still is the best horse i have ever had she is 18 and still jumps and has never gone lame unless she gets a stone jamed in her foot .  not heard or experienced navic problem would have    showed up by now i would of thought she is knowen as diamond belle and i am in cornwall


----------



## diamondbelle (18 August 2013)

i am lucky to have a grand daughter of king of diamonds and she jumps great won lodes she is 18 and still going also very fast


----------



## aed (19 August 2013)

Never heard that about the narvucular. Any kngdiaminds i know are keen jumpers and thats what they good at. Too class breeding there. So enjoy your horsey!!!


----------



## mybutterfly (19 August 2013)

Robert stevens had the most lovely KoD grandson when I worked for him. Super jump and just the most lovely temperament. He evented to 2* and show jumped to 1.30m. I'd be delighted to have one of his offspring as they seem to combine the best of a temperament to suit amateurs and enough scope for top level


----------



## LynH (21 August 2013)

I read somewhere that 16 horses competing at the Sydney Olympics were from KoD lines. They were very popular a few years ago.


----------



## gadetra (21 August 2013)

shirleyno2 said:



			Which socities would he grade with today!!!!!! Also Clover Hill. I'd love tp present a clone of them to the stallion judges of today.........
		
Click to expand...

This ^^^^^^
Really interesting. I often wonder about that.
Also as Simsar says he would not grade as a RID. Makes you wonder about the breeds future. Watching the stallion class at the RDS this year, it is really obvious which you would use to do a job, and which to look good, eg Moylough Bouncer is a fabulous nicer, very athletic, and would producean athletic foal with a variety of job options. He will never place well in the rds. Where as I thought Cassanova, the winner, classy etc. but a bit limited in his movement, and usefulness. 
I suppose its the old type v use in this day and age. Gortfee Hero is a nice compromise I think, but he is massive. Grade a jumper, plenty of bone and substance, maybe a bit too much front, but not too rectangular/modern and light. Its the Quiet Man used to win every year he entered, super traditional type, but there is no way i'd use him. I just don't see a job for him, other than showing.
The lack of Tb close up has cost athletiscism, and I know some worry about bone but when you see how light some are, Kec bluejay diamond springs to mind as an example, they can be just as light without it!


----------



## Kaylum (21 August 2013)

We had a stallion by his full brother bred by the stud itself. They sure knew what they where doing to get good horses. shorter backed bred for jumping, not the longer type you see today.


----------



## SKY (21 August 2013)

2 of my mares are infoal to dancing boy who's sire is clover hill and dancing boy dam is out of king of diamonds.


----------



## JanetGeorge (21 August 2013)

gadetra said:



			The lack of Tb close up has cost athletiscism, and I know some worry about bone but when you see how light some are, Kec bluejay diamond springs to mind as an example, they can be just as light without it!
		
Click to expand...

But KEC Bluejay Diamond has King of Diamonds (and therefore TB) on both sides of his pedigree.  The TB is pre-potent and any ID with TB in it - even a long way back - will throw much lighter progeny, particularly to IDs who have TB in the first 3-4 generations.  It's one of the problems with the 'new' Grade-up register for ID mares.

Some years back I had Kensons Aragorn - who is one of the older RIDs allowed in with a lot of TB - his dam was by a TB, and his sire had a TB 2 generations back, making him more than 30% TB.  I used him on 4 RID mares - none of whom had TB in the first 4 generations.  But one of the foals was a little miniature TB - 15.2 and not an ID characteristic to her name!

I kept a colt by him - and his progeny all show an extra dash of 'quality' - but so far are much more consistent in type - although a couple out of ID SH mares looks VERY 'quality'!

So we only want a dash of TB in the ID - after all, we don't breed IDs to be TBs under a different breed name!

This is my little pretend ID - not surprisingly, she graded Class 2 - very good marks for conformation and movement, LOUSY marks for 'type'!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dXnJ1inu5cA


----------



## gadetra (21 August 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			But KEC Bluejay Diamond has King of Diamonds (and therefore TB) on both sides of his pedigree.  The TB is pre-potent and any ID with TB in it - even a long way back - will throw much lighter progeny, particularly to IDs who have TB in the first 3-4 generations.  It's one of the problems with the 'new' Grade-up register for ID mares.

Some years back I had Kensons Aragorn - who is one of the older RIDs allowed in with a lot of TB - his dam was by a TB, and his sire had a TB 2 generations back, making him more than 30% TB.  I used him on 4 RID mares - none of whom had TB in the first 4 generations.  But one of the foals was a little miniature TB - 15.2 and not an ID characteristic to her name!

I kept a colt by him - and his progeny all show an extra dash of 'quality' - but so far are much more consistent in type - although a couple out of ID SH mares looks VERY 'quality'!

So we only want a dash of TB in the ID - after all, we don't breed IDs to be TBs under a different breed name!

This is my little pretend ID - not surprisingly, she graded Class 2 - very good marks for conformation and movement, LOUSY marks for 'type'!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dXnJ1inu5cA

Click to expand...

That was my point-the TB gave so much to the ID, that I think has cost the breed in the long term. 
As Simsar said KOD would not grade RID today, he would be an ISH. And look what he gave to the breed? Him and a half bred called Clover Hill. What I meant (but put so badly) is that there maybe should be room in the studbook for ID's with a half/three quarter etc. TB in them so long as they conform to bone, type and substance, as KOD and Clover Hill and many many others have. As I said before, I would not go to It's the Quiet Man for movement or athleticism, yet he was a big winner in hand for his traditional type. Moylough Bouncer on the other hand, will not place well, in spite of his fabulous movement and athleticism. Same for Killinick Bouncer. Grange Bouncer himself was a dressage winner. Their animals would appear to have a job, and more suitable for modern sport horse needs. That is not to say abandon type, there are plenty of substantial modern ID's out there. Does that make sense? I may have just rambled on there apologies.

See now I would have that filly in a heartbeat! She is a beaut and a stunning mover. Did they write 'modern' on her grading form? :tongue3: In all seriousness though, put to a buttier stallion she could produce a typier animal, but with the addition of her fabulous movement. Class 1 for me!


----------



## JanetGeorge (21 August 2013)

gadetra said:



			See now I would have that filly in a heartbeat! She is a beaut and a stunning mover. Did they write 'modern' on her grading form? :tongue3: In all seriousness though, put to a buttier stallion she could produce a typier animal, but with the addition of her fabulous movement. Class 1 for me!
		
Click to expand...

Nope - didn't even go for 'modern' - I think it was "Sadly, no Irish Draught characteristics!"  And that was about right (and I don't always agree with them.)  The only ID characteristic she has is her sweet nature and trainability.

But this is the risk with TB - it DOES take-over so you lose bone and substance which is what ID fans like about the breed.  For those who want more TB, the ID sport horse is the answer.  It is VERY hard to breed a big pure-bred with bone and substance who can also MOVE.  My RID stallion is one of the biggest, with the most bone, AND he is remarkably athletic - but even he struggles to breed the BIG HW hunter types.

ETA - the little bay SHOULDN'T have fallen quite so hard into the TB camp - her dam was by my big boy - out of a full sister to Agherlow!


----------



## gadetra (21 August 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			Nope - didn't even go for 'modern' - I think it was "Sadly, no Irish Draught characteristics!"  And that was about right (and I don't always agree with them.)  The only ID characteristic she has is her sweet nature and trainability.

But this is the risk with TB - it DOES take-over so you lose bone and substance which is what ID fans like about the breed.  For those who want more TB, the ID sport horse is the answer.  It is VERY hard to breed a big pure-bred with bone and substance who can also MOVE.  My RID stallion is one of the biggest, with the most bone, AND he is remarkably athletic - but even he struggles to breed the BIG HW hunter types.

ETA - the little bay SHOULDN'T have fallen quite so hard into the TB camp - her dam was by my big boy - out of a full sister to Agherlow!
		
Click to expand...


Sometimes they just don't listen :rolleyes3:

This is a big substantial lad who moves really well:
http://www.irishdraught.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=175&Itemid=352

and this guy impressed me, I had never seen him before:
http://www.horsesportireland.ie/_fi...012/DUNSANDLE DIAMOND result 2012 for web.pdf

I actually prefer a smaller, buttier draught mare, to cross height and blood onto. I think it crosses better that way, although I have the nicest mare I have ever owned who is crossed the other way round (Flagmount King x TB), so what do I know! (very very little in actuality!)

Just re read-that filly is out of a full sister to Agherlow? :eek3: Jesus you don't expect that! On the upside she is fabulous, but a total throw back, in the nicest possible way. Wow though, that is a real surprise


----------



## Kacey88 (21 August 2013)

I agree with Gadetra, those two are super, but so big! I thought this guy was nice, not too leggy but still moves nicely and for shorties like me he's good and short! http://www.idhba.ie/Harkaway_Lionhawk.html

He was towards the end of the line though which was disappointing. He seemed to have a lovely demeanour too.


----------



## Eothain (21 August 2013)

When the two of the best ID stallions ever, Clover Hill and KOD himself, wouldn't get in as Grade 1 stallions today, you know something is gone pear shaped!!

Irish Draughts ... a type. Not a breed.

The best ID stallion? Sea Crest obviously! Why? Look below ;-)


----------



## gadetra (21 August 2013)

Kacey88 said:



			I agree with Gadetra, those two are super, but so big! I thought this guy was nice, not too leggy but still moves nicely and for shorties like me he's good and short! http://www.idhba.ie/Harkaway_Lionhawk.html

He was towards the end of the line though which was disappointing. He seemed to have a lovely demeanour too.
		
Click to expand...

Now you see there's a substantial type that can move, and has plenty of quality. 
It's strange, I don't mind height in a stallion but I do in a mare :rolleyes3:


----------



## gadetra (21 August 2013)

Eothain said:



			When the two of the best ID stallions ever, Clover Hill and KOD himself, wouldn't get in as Grade 1 stallions today, you know something is gone pear shaped!!

Irish Draughts ... a type. Not a breed.

The best ID stallion? Sea Crest obviously! Why? Look below ;-)
		
Click to expand...

Ha ha ha ha ha Now why would you say that?! When everyone knows you harbour secret old fashioned Irish Draught and continental free ISH breeding dreams :tongue3:


----------



## JanetGeorge (22 August 2013)

gadetra said:



			Just re read-that filly is out of a full sister to Agherlow? :eek3: Jesus you don't expect that! On the upside she is fabulous, but a total throw back, in the nicest possible way. Wow though, that is a real surprise
		
Click to expand...

Not quite - her Dam was out of Little Macha (the full sister to Agherlow).  Little Macha was a fantastic mare - only about 16.1 - and none of her foals were much bigger.  One of her daughters is by Alice's Diamond Slipper - that one is a very sporty type - the Inspectors didn't like her much.  The rest of the foals I had from her were all by Lady's Tralee Raj (17hh, 10" of bone) and NONE of them are very big.  Around the 16.1 mark - even the boys.


----------



## peewit (22 August 2013)

Whilst talking about ID breeding I've a 5 year old by Shenandoah Prince Holly out of a Kildalton Gold mare.
I can't find anything apart from some photos about Shenandoah prince Holly.....anyone know anything????
Also what's kildalton gold like as a dam sire?


----------



## Springs (17 September 2013)

This is a nice look at KOD with lost of interresting information on the big guy. 

Our little 4yo Springs Spirit who has quilified for the British Eventing Young Horse Championships at Osberton can trace his line back to KOD and he certainly has a fantastic jump!


----------



## Zebe (23 January 2014)

Yes great discussion on KOD! 2 of my mare's grandsire is KOD's. I am having great difficulty finding a suitable 4 or 5* ISH stallion for them without KOD's in him, I don't really want to go TB, I probably could with 1 of them because she has more ID in her, she's out of flagmount king. Maybe i'm not moving with the times but I can't persuade myself to look at anything but Irish. Maybe I'll change my mind down the road who knows. But i would have to fall in love with another type/breed to change and that hasn't happened as yet!


----------



## Goldenstar (23 January 2014)

I have just bought a RID .
He's a KOD great grand son on the dam side . He's by gortlea ruler .
He's 16.2 which was the top end of height for an ID when was i young he's got a lot bone I mean a lot but he's light on his feet and athletic .
I have another 16.1 lovely looking by blackthorn but IMO he lacks bone and is heavy topped he is however handsome and did well in the showring .
They are really really different types .
When ever I look at pictures of KOD he looks tied in below the knee .


----------



## jjsblackhorse (24 August 2014)

My 2yr old is the last foal of a King of Diamonds mare who was one of King of Diamonds last foals! I am waiting with interest to see what sort of horse he will be.....


----------



## StormyMoments (25 August 2014)

I think pretty much everything from Ireland has KoD in them somewhere, I have never heard the rumor of navicular and my gelding's great grand sire is KoD and he has no issues and he is now 13... my gelding has a huge jump I think it is something that he passes down as all of the horses I have met with the same breeding have a massive jump!


----------



## Capriole (25 August 2014)

I've got some from Ireland who haven't, but yes I've got my share of KOD as well, lol.
Never in my life heard the navicular thing re KOD.


----------



## WindyStacks (25 August 2014)

I've got one by flagmount king (looks just like daddy), big, dopey, does everything, bold and very easy-going. Many others say the same about this line. 

There's still flagmount king frozen semen for sale and I would be very tempted if I were looking to replace. 

No signs of navicular here and all my googling leads me only to this thread...


----------



## islandspirit (29 August 2014)

Sorry to hijack the thread but you all sound so knowledgeable does anyone have any info on the ID Stallion Silver Jasper? A google search throws up very little. I have  middleweight hunter with Silver Jasper as his grandsire and I'd love to know more about him.


----------



## GrassHorse (29 August 2014)

King of Diamonds was known to pass on, good front leg jumping technique. They were all very good in front. And sometimes you hear the saying with a horse that has KOD in his breeding, when it jumps well with good fore leg technique. "ya can see the diamonds in him"
However, some people say the KOD horse were sharp and while they were quick in front , they could be even quicker from behind with a kick.
My opinion is, he was a great sire! All the best families in Ireland have him somewhere in the breeding. Great horses like Special Envoy (Nelson Passoa) and Royal Athlete (Markus Hauri) were by KOD.
The king of Diamond mares sold to sweden in the 80's were all crossed with son of Capitol and this cross was very successfull. I always advise breeders to bring capitol blood into kod line. It a succesfull cross.


----------



## Puzzled (29 August 2014)

We have a KOD granddaughter (she looks just like him) her sire is Candle King. We purchased her in Ireland as a 2 yr old (she's now 22). We broke her in ourselves (first time we'd ever done this!) and then showjumped her all the was to Grade A! When she retired we bred several foals from her some of whom have won at county level in hand and are just starting their ridden careers now. She is without doubt the most intelligent horse we have owned.


----------



## jjsblackhorse (29 August 2014)

My gelding is out of a last KOD mare by a stallion called Extreme of Cavallini, I was wondering if anyone has knowledge of him? Its just that I am a bit worried about my boy who is just over 2 and has bog spavin which on investigation was OCD. He was operated on 6 weeks ago, but still does not look right and has not recovered his fantastic trot that he had, but not lame!


----------



## no_no_nanette (29 August 2014)

Extreme of Cavallini (BWP) was until recently owned by Max Routledge and stood at Paddock Wood Stallions.  I'm sure if you contacted Max to find out more generally about the stallion he could give you some background on him.


----------



## dibbin (30 August 2014)

My sister's boy is by Drumhowan Gold, so KOD is his great grandsire. He's a lovely natured big horse with nice movement and a decent jump, although he can be lazy behind.


----------



## Jnhuk (30 August 2014)

One of my geldings had KOD as grandsire. He is a lovely big ID now 18 years old never sick or sorry. Great hunter and can do a very decent dressage test. Only issue  we have is him is being grey and the fact that he loves getting very muddy and melanomas


----------



## spacefaer (30 August 2014)

JanetGeorge said:



			But this is the risk with TB - it DOES take-over so you lose bone and substance which is what ID fans like about the breed.  For those who want more TB, the ID sport horse is the answer.  It is VERY hard to breed a big pure-bred with bone and substance who can also MOVE.  My RID stallion is one of the biggest, with the most bone, AND he is remarkably athletic - but even he struggles to breed the BIG HW hunter types.
		
Click to expand...

http://youtu.be/pNLj8ZvKLvw

What do you think of this Janet? He's a 17.2hh 4 yr old by Sir Rivie out of an Annaghdown Star mare, with 10" bone


----------



## spacefaer (31 August 2014)

Meant to add, he is almost completely KoD free, having only got him once, 5 generations back


----------



## JanetGeorge (31 August 2014)

spacefaer said:



http://youtu.be/pNLj8ZvKLvw

What do you think of this Janet? He's a 17.2hh 4 yr old by Sir Rivie out of an Annaghdown Star mare, with 10" bone
		
Click to expand...

Hell, I can't judge on that!  At present he looks a little 'weak' behind - but that's probably just immaturity.  He's got the bone to be a HW - if the body grows to match .....


----------



## Crumpet (31 August 2014)

I avoided KOD lines simply because I'd always heard the rumour that they tended to be difficult people to deal with. The mare that I bred with could be an absolute baggage, so I used a stallion with Gort Boy and Coosheen Liam lines. No problems at all with the youngster who went on to do dressage. I've never heard of a navicular problem though I did find this article which was nice.http://www.horsebreedersmagazine.com/#/king-of-diamonds/4557963776


----------



## dibbin (31 August 2014)

Should have added to my earlier post, I have known 2 KOD grandsons very well, who were both very straightforward, genuine horses with lovely personalities. Both fabulous jumpers.

They also both dished with their right foreleg, but it didn't affect them at all.


----------



## Springs (31 August 2014)

Our little boy Spring's Spirit has a bit of KOD! You will have a fab horse.


----------



## Luci07 (7 September 2014)

I have had a number of horses with KOD in their lines.

All they had in common was....they were nothing like each other. The line is pretty diluted nowadays so unless you really have something close, I would be paying more attention to the more recent lines.


----------



## tegan_day (13 March 2021)

Hi, realise I’m a little late to the party. I have a rising 7 year old mare who’s by Shenandoah prince holly. Did you find any info?


----------



## tegan_day (13 March 2021)

peewit said:



			Whilst talking about ID breeding I've a 5 year old by Shenandoah Prince Holly out of a Kildalton Gold mare.
I can't find anything apart from some photos about Shenandoah prince Holly.....anyone know anything????
Also what's kildalton gold like as a dam sire?
		
Click to expand...

Hi, realise I’m a little late to the party. I have a rising 7 year old mare who’s by Shenandoah prince holly. Did you find any info?


----------

