# Update - horse with blood in urine



## applecart14 (30 January 2017)

I rang the vets just to see if they had looked at Baileys water sample.  They hadn't but one of the vets went away and did a dipstick and rang me back and said there was absolutely no evidence of blood in the urine, and that it is a very reliable test.  There was no evidence of raised glucose levels or keytones either.  She asked me what made me think there was blood in the urine so I told her about how I'd found bright fresh blood on top of my shavings on Friday and thought it was a bird or mouse the cat had brought in.  But then as I started digging found blood mixed with urine in the used shavings.  I explained about how I'd checked him all over and could find no blood on him from his mouth, ears, nose and bottom.  I also explained how the Y.O had seen him stood splayed out on Monday or Tuesday during the day in the paddock and I also explained about how I'd noticed his bed had become really wet since last weekend and suddenly put two and two together.  Told her I'd spoke to two separate vets from the practice who said to get sample and drop it off but there was no immediate panic as horse was very well in himself.

She said that in order to get a sample for the lab to analyse for bacteria or infection urine would have to be very recent.  She agreed that my horse can wait until he is seen by the vet on Friday for his reassessment with his neuro/loss of performance claim.

She said (as the first vet had said) that they would put a catheter up to get a sample and also have a look to see if there was a problem with his penis (presumably this is penile cancer that geldings his age are prone to) and get a sample to send away for checking for bugs.

I feel confident that my horse is okay but cannot understand where this blood has come from as it was definitely there. I know what I saw and even took a few photos of the blood on his bed and on the floor.  My O/H saw a little that I'd missed getting out of the bed from the day before so he saw it too.  I feel like I am going mad, I am really confused how a sample some 24 or so hours later would not show blood.

I am very happy with my vet and confident that they know what they are talking about. So long as Bailey is 'normal' in eating, drinking, urinating and poohing then I feel happy to wait until Friday.


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## paddi22 (30 January 2017)

I had exactly the same thing happen to one of mine. Like you you i found blood (what looked like a lot) in shavings bed, on two occasions about two weeks apart. Vet came out and did full range of internal, external and blood tests, and nothing came up at all.  His best guess was it was a blood vessel might have popped somewhere. As horse was in good condition, bright and alert, he said to wait and see if anything reoccured and they'd take her in for further work. But it never came back and i never found out what caused it.


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## Cecile (30 January 2017)

This is totally an aside and means nothing other than my ramblings

I have always had a few goats about the place, I like them
One day one of the wethers came wandering over to the stable and pee'd on the concrete, there was most certainly blood visible
So I took an ice cream tub and wandered around behind him, if you think taking a wee sample for a stabled horse is unusual trying taking one from a horned goat who isn't too impressed with an ice cream tub being put under his nether regions

All of a sudden he pee'd for England and I mean a huge none stop pee which was pretty unusual, I examined the pee and there was no blood but there was quite a lot of chalky substance (Like stones which wethered goats can be prone to) well after all that peeing it never ever happened again, so in effect he had cleared it himself, he lived to a ripe old age without any further problems

Doesn't mean anything at all to your situation but its just another angle

I also think horses and all animals are put on this planet to confuse us and send us mad


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## applecart14 (30 January 2017)

I am a little worried that it could be bladder/kidney cancer as my horse has lost weight over the last few months, his teeth were check 9 months ago, he is on around 28lbs of hay per day, and has two feeds. He isn't ridden that much and is adequately warm with the rugs he wears.  He's always been a really good doer and its only in the last four to five months or so that I have seen his ribs, he's been regularly weighed and although never put on more than a couple of KG between weigh ins, has not lost either.  You can see all his ribs.  Vets not too concerned.

I will wait and see what Friday brings.


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## ycbm (30 January 2017)

Applecart I've already tried to explain about kidney stones to you but I'll have one more go. While they are traveling down the ureter from the kidney to the bladder, they hurt like hell, scrape the tube and bleed. Once passed, the bleeding stops.

At the time I read that most kidney stones in humans are calcium oxylate, so I assume that they are in horses too. They are likely to be caused by either too much calcium in the food/water or by dehydration (my case).

Your description on the other thread of cloudy sediment would make me wonder.

If no other reason is found, then it would be wise to consider those two possibilities for your fellow. They are prone to recur and are exceptionally painful while stuck in a tube.


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## applecart14 (30 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Applecart I've already tried to explain about kidney stones to you but I'll have one more go. While they are traveling down the ureter from the kidney to the bladder, they hurt like hell, scrape the tube and bleed. Once passed, the bleeding stops.

At the time I read that most kidney stones in humans are calcium oxylate, so I assume that they are in horses too. They are likely to be caused by either too much calcium in the food/water or by dehydration (my case).

Your description on the other thread of cloudy sediment would make me wonder.

If no other reason is found, then it would be wise to consider those two possibilities for your fellow. They are prone to recur and are exceptionally painful while stuck in a tube.
		
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Cecile - your last sentence 

YCBM - Thanks for your patronizing tone YCBM but its not that I have not been listening.  But A) you are not a vet, B) I am not a vet and C) I have spoke to three vets now all of whom have said it can wait until Friday.  What exactly will be gained by them visiting the horse?  Can you tell me this?

Three telephone consultations all telling me the same thing.  I am guided by their expertise.

If he were in pain he would be stood in the corner of his box, ears back, face in a grimace - the signs I have seen so many times with him previously with his colic episodes of old.  His ears are pricked, his eyes alert, hungry and eating well, mugging me for mints, scratching his ear with his hind foot, towing me to the field to be turned out, and happy to be groomed and tacked up.  All  normal horse behavior.  There is no indication of any pain.

Paddi 22 - thank you for your story.  That must have been a frustrating experience for you.


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## ycbm (30 January 2017)

applecart14 said:



			Thanks for your patronizing tone YCBM but its not that I have not been listening.  But A) you are not a vet, B) I am not a vet and C) I have spoke to three vets now all of whom have said it can wait until Friday.  What exactly will be gained by them visiting the horse?  Can you tell me this?

Three telephone consultations all telling me the same thing.  I am guided by their expertise.

If he were in pain he would be stood in the corner of his box, ears back, face in a grimace - the signs I have seen so many times with him previously with his colic episodes of old.  His ears are pricked, his eyes alert, hungry and eating well, mugging me for mints, scratching his ear with his hind foot, towing me to the field to be turned out, and happy to be groomed and tacked up.  All  normal horse behavior.  There is no indication of any pain.
		
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You complain about being jumped on on this forum but by crikey you don't half ask for it sometimes you ungrateful wretch 

Who said anything about Friday or current pain?


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## applecart14 (30 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			You complain about being jumped on on this forum but by crikey you don't half ask for it sometimes you ungrateful wretch 

Who said anything about Friday or current pain?
		
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Whatever


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## ycbm (30 January 2017)

You can thank me for spending my time and energy trying to help you and your horse any time you like Applecart. I can wait.


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## milliepops (30 January 2017)

as usual, all of us speak from our own experiences and 'comfort levels' and this tends to lead to some heated exchanges. FWIW applecart I think as your vets appear to have said the same thing consistently, which was that they weren't concerned that this needed immediate attention, then the mud that's getting flung at you can't really stick..

I wouldn't necessarily have done the same, I think I'd have called vet and said I need them to see a horse because x, y, and z but that's just a different way of playing it, and I'm not good with the 'wait and see' approach.  The outcome may not have been any different.

I do think ycbm that you appear to get very involved in some of the medical/veterinary related threads on this forum - just an observation, most of them I don't choose to respond to but I see a lot of well intentioned and clearly considered advice but not always the recognition that different people make different - valid - choices.

In light of the vets advice i don't think it's fair to come done on ac in this instance, would be a different story if no veterinary advice had been sought.  In my opinion. :wink3:

ETA . In the meantime, glad that Bailey appears to be doing well, fingers x'd for you between now and Friday.


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## applecart14 (30 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			You can thank me for spending my time and energy trying to help you and your horse any time you like Applecart. I can wait.
		
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Err first of all you accused me of only coming on the forum to get sympathy and support.  Then you patronised me by saying that you would attempt to explain to me again.  And then you call me an ungrateful wretch.

And *you* want *me* to *thank **you*????

You were not spending your time and energy trying to help me.  You were putting me down, making me feel stupid, and ultimately trying to get a rise out of me as its more fun for you that way.

I feel very sorry for you. I just wish people would try and open their eyes and see what's really going on with this thread because this is becoming a common theme throughout H&H forum these days.


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## ester (30 January 2017)

Probably good news then, its a shame you don't seem to have responded to my last post on the other thread about people's concern from what you put in the OP and their experiences. It would have been nice to have it one post so that those that took the time to tell you about some not so great periods of theirs lives has a notification of the result today, perhaps you could add the link to this thread?


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## ycbm (30 January 2017)

milliepops said:



			I do think ycbm that you appear to get very involved in some of the medical/veterinary related threads on this forum - just an observation, most of them I don't choose to respond to but I see a lot of well intentioned and clearly considered advice but not always the recognition that different people make different - valid - choices.

In light of the vets advice i don't think it's fair to come done on ac in this instance, would be a different story if no veterinary advice had been sought.
		
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I have criticised Applecart for being a ungrateful wretch and for blowing up about Friday and current pain which I never even mentioned. She was expressing her own and her vets perplexity as to where the blood and sporadic pain signs came from and I offered her a potential answer.

My post had zilch to do with whether or not she has sought or taken veterinary advice, so why are you having a pop at me now for having a go at her about that? 

  Feel free to comment on any thread where you feel I have given poor advice, that's what open forums are all about.


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## ycbm (30 January 2017)

applecart14 said:



			Err first of all you accused me of only coming on the forum to get sympathy and support.  Then you patronised me by saying that you would attempt to explain to me again.  And then you call me an ungrateful wretch.

And *you* want *me* to *thank **you*????

You were not spending your time and energy trying to help me.  You were putting me down, making me feel stupid, and ultimately trying to get a rise out of me as its more fun for you that way.

I feel very sorry for you. I just wish people would try and open their eyes and see what's really going on with this thread because this is becoming a common theme throughout H&H forum these days.
		
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I have in my recollection NEVER suggested that you only come onto the forum for sympathy and support. Please point me to that post.

I have OFTEN backed you up on other threads when people seemed to me to be getting at you unfairly. Your office heating thread was one of several.

I have NEVER in my recollection ever posted on a thread of yours without the intention being to help you or your horse. With the exception of commenting on your completely misdirected and excessive reaction to my post on this thread, which has finally exasperated me.


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## milliepops (30 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			I have criticised Applecart for being a ungrateful wretch and for blowing up about Friday and current pain which I never even mentioned. She was expressing her own and her vets perplexity as to where the blood and sporadic pain signs came from and I offered her a potential answer.

My post had zilch to do with whether or not she has sought or taken veterinary advice, so why are you having a pop at me now for having a go at her about that? 

  Feel free to comment on any thread where you feel I have given poor advice, that's what open forums are all about.
		
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I would do if I felt you had given poor advice - look again, I didn't say anything about that. Just that - clearly - other people may not choose to take it and that is OK. It seems to be totally valid in this case to choose not to freak out over kidney stones *immediately* as the vet doesn't seem to be concerned that they leap into action straight away.

By coming back repeatedly and repeating your experiences with kidney stones it does appear like you are trying to kick ac into action faster than her vets are advising necessary.  

As I said, I would have probably driven horse to vet and asked that they examine it there an then but that's MY choice, my level of anxiety and quite possibly they'd have said 'nope,wait and see' and I'd have driven it home again   So I accept that other options are *valid*.

It's a little unfair to expect gushing thanks for coming onto a forum to share experiences, we're all here of our own free will and because we enjoy chatting to other horsey people, not because we can demand thanks or gratitude  though we're all human so it's always nice to receive thanks.

FWIW it was the Margot thread that first made me a little sensitised to your apparent difficulty in letting things lie when people make different choices - I understand totally that it comes from a good place and believe it to be 100% genuine   but I am concerned that you take it to heart when people choose otherwise to what you believe to be the right thing.  Just a thought. Because I think it makes you come across a bit bolshy when I doubt that is the intention.


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## ycbm (30 January 2017)

It was NEW information about how the kidney stones would fit the bill and how to rule them out in future. I did not suggest that it needed any immediate action.

I was not expecting gushing thanks, or any in fact, that post was ironic. But I was expecting her not to go ape over Friday and current pain, neither of which I had mentioned.

People read all sorts of things into the wording on posts. Please don't concern yourself about me, just comment at the time if you want to question anything I post. I'm sure AC doesn't want this thread to turn  into an analysis of my motives or psyche even though you seem to


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## milliepops (30 January 2017)

lol deal :thumbup: .  I'm not concerned about you tbh, I'm pretty sure you can look after yourself :lol:  I didn't want to comment on Margot's thread either at the point it made me wince for her, because it really wasn't the time nor place :wink3:

anyway, all is back to normal on HHO!   Post back on Friday AC, if you feel like updating us  Really hoping you have some good news.


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## applecart14 (30 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			I have in my recollection NEVER suggested that you only come onto the forum for sympathy and support. Please point me to that post.

I have OFTEN backed you up on other threads when people seemed to me to be getting at you unfairly. Your office heating thread was one of several.

I have NEVER in my recollection ever posted on a thread of yours without the intention being to help you or your horse. With the exception of commenting on your completely misdirected and excessive reaction to my post on this thread, which has finally exasperated me.
		
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Applecart you really make me wonder sometimes. You complain about the way you are treated on this forum, and sometimes people do jump on you quite hard. And then you post a thread saying that your horse is bleeding and may have a urinary infection or kidney stones and that you don't intend a vet to see it for one day short of a full week. Honestly, what did you expect us to say? Why did you post? Because if it was for sympathy and support, I'm not sure you'll be getting much of it.


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## applecart14 (30 January 2017)

milliepops said:



			Post back on Friday AC, if you feel like updating us  Really hoping you have some good news.
		
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Thanks Milliepops but I really can't face anymore of this c**P at the moment. 
Thanks you for your help and those other posters who were kind enough to post positively.


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## ycbm (30 January 2017)

That is not an accusation that you only post for sympathy and attention. It is a question why you posted if you did not want any advice. It seeks clarification, it is not an accusation unless you choose to read it that way, which you do. 

I see you are failing to acknowledge the number of times I've stuck up for you on this forum. The good news is that I don't hold grudges and if I see you unfairly picked on again, which I have seen several times and I'm sure I will again, it will not stop me supporting you again.


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## Goldenstar (30 January 2017)

applecart14 said:



			I rang the vets just to see if they had looked at Baileys water sample.  They hadn't but one of the vets went away and did a dipstick and rang me back and said there was absolutely no evidence of blood in the urine, and that it is a very reliable test.  There was no evidence of raised glucose levels or keytones either.  She asked me what made me think there was blood in the urine so I told her about how I'd found bright fresh blood on top of my shavings on Friday and thought it was a bird or mouse the cat had brought in.  But then as I started digging found blood mixed with urine in the used shavings.  I explained about how I'd checked him all over and could find no blood on him from his mouth, ears, nose and bottom.  I also explained how the Y.O had seen him stood splayed out on Monday or Tuesday during the day in the paddock and I also explained about how I'd noticed his bed had become really wet since last weekend and suddenly put two and two together.  Told her I'd spoke to two separate vets from the practice who said to get sample and drop it off but there was no immediate panic as horse was very well in himself.

She said that in order to get a sample for the lab to analyse for bacteria or infection urine would have to be very recent.  She agreed that my horse can wait until he is seen by the vet on Friday for his reassessment with his neuro/loss of performance claim.

She said (as the first vet had said) that they would put a catheter up to get a sample and also have a look to see if there was a problem with his penis (presumably this is penile cancer that geldings his age are prone to) and get a sample to send away for checking for bugs.

I feel confident that my horse is okay but cannot understand where this blood has come from as it was definitely there. I know what I saw and even took a few photos of the blood on his bed and on the floor.  My O/H saw a little that I'd missed getting out of the bed from the day before so he saw it too.  I feel like I am going mad, I am really confused how a sample some 24 or so hours later would not show blood.

I am very happy with my vet and confident that they know what they are talking about. So long as Bailey is 'normal' in eating, drinking, urinating and poohing then I feel happy to wait until Friday.
		
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Your not going mad if you saw blood you saw it .
It's perfectly possible it was some form of transient problem which may or may not reoccur .
You just have to keep as close an eye on him as you can and act fast if something changes .
Horses are sometimes like cars that never make the funny noise when you are at the garage .
My FIL was taken to hospital at the weekend because his pacemaker was bleeping you can guess what the pacemaker was doing when they got to the hospital ....nothing that was not normal .


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## rara007 (31 January 2017)

ACs horse really does not have any of the signs of (rare in horses) kidney stones. Not sure where that idea came from! Good luck for Friday


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## ester (31 January 2017)

It came from her vet in the first post of her other thread  people are just responding to what her vet suggested.


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## rara007 (31 January 2017)

He said kidney stones but then referred to urethra. I guess something was lost in translation  Sediment is normal and stones relatively common but they are rarely picked up as causing issues in the kidneys or ureters (acutely painful) compared to in the bladder (variable colicky).


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## ycbm (31 January 2017)

ACs horse really does not have any of the signs of (rare in horses) kidney stones. Not sure where that idea came from! Good luck for Friday
		
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rara007 said:



			[vet] said kidney stones but then referred to urethra. I guess something was lost in translation  Sediment is normal and stones relatively common but they are rarely picked up as causing issues in the kidneys or ureters (acutely painful) compared to in the bladder (variable colicky).
		
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Horse has been reported to have:

had on and off low grade colic over the last year, was seen to stand camped out with no resulting urine in the last two weeks, has been seen to have bled into urine in/on the bed and is producing urine cloudy urine with noticeable sediment.

I know zero about kidney stones in horses but I think the causes are the same as humans, which would be too much calcium in the diet or low grade dehydration over a period of time.  If the horse was mine and nothing else is found on Friday, I'd just be double checking those two as a precaution.

I hope it's not serious, unexplained blood is frightening for anyone.


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## SpringArising (31 January 2017)

Blood isn't always present throughout a UTI. Again, speaking from my own experience, when I'm in the 'acute' phase of one (the first 6 or so hours usually), there is blood in my urine. Sometimes a lot, and sometimes just streaks. After that time, even though I can still feel the infection is there (they have lasted weeks and weeks), there is no more blood. So just because there isn't blood that doesn't mean the infection isn't present any more.


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## rara007 (31 January 2017)

A horse with kidney stones would not be showing those signs, it's much more acute and would also probably be really pretty ill by now. Bladder is much more likely if uroliths are the cause at all.


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## ester (31 January 2017)

rara007 said:



			He said kidney stones but then referred to urethra. I guess something was lost in translation  Sediment is normal and stones relatively common but they are rarely picked up as causing issues in the kidneys or ureters (acutely painful) compared to in the bladder (variable colicky).
		
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Yup which is why I've said before its difficult to know who has said what to who and why  and if everyone is working off the same info.


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## cobgoblin (31 January 2017)

A calculus anywhere in the urinary system could cause these signs....it just depends on its size.


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## Beausmate (31 January 2017)

applecart14 said:



			I am a little worried that it could be bladder/kidney cancer as my horse has lost weight over the last few months, his teeth were check 9 months ago, he is on around 28lbs of hay per day, and has two feeds. He isn't ridden that much and is adequately warm with the rugs he wears.  He's always been a really good doer and its only in the last four to five months or so that I have seen his ribs, he's been regularly weighed and although never put on more than a couple of KG between weigh ins, has not lost either.  You can see all his ribs.  Vets not too concerned.

I will wait and see what Friday brings.
		
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I doubt very much that it is cancer, the weight loss tends to be rapid and Bailey wouldn't be looking otherwise healthy if it had been going on for months.

Have you considered a PPID test?  My old horse didn't get fat last summer; I have had him for 18 years and he has turned into a lardarse every year without fail.  Last year I had to give him hard feed to maintain his weight, so I had him tested and it came back positive.


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## ester (1 February 2017)

Beausmate said:



			I doubt very much that it is cancer, the weight loss tends to be rapid and Bailey wouldn't be looking otherwise healthy if it had been going on for months.

Have you considered a PPID test?  My old horse didn't get fat last summer; I have had him for 18 years and he has turned into a lardarse every year without fail.  Last year I had to give him hard feed to maintain his weight, so I had him tested and it came back positive.
		
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You're braver than me bringing that one up again


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## Leo Walker (1 February 2017)

ester said:



			You're braver than me bringing that one up again 

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You took the words right out of my mouth :lol:


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## applecart14 (1 February 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			You took the words right out of my mouth :lol:
		
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I am glad that you feel the need to ridicule me, it must be a source of highly amusing fun that I am sat here in tears worried about my horse and what they are going to find out on Friday and yet you still feel the need to make unnecessary remarks at my expense.  Well done.  Not only is he leaking blood from somewhere but he has an intermittent lameness problem and his pinworm still hasn't cleared up.  Its a never ending battle trying to sort him out and it woudl be nice to have some support.

As for the test I have suggested this test to the vet as I wanted it done (Ester you may remember this conversation with me) and the vet said it wasn't necessary.  I then asked two other vets that came out for things over the last year (bacterial leg infection, dental check, splenic entrapment) and each one has said that there is little point in testing for it. I have already stated this on previous posts but you are not listening to me.  My friends elderly pony had prascend for a couple of months and her vet said she could take her off it and she was off it for 18 months or so before going back on it again.

The vets that I have spoken to myself (my own vets) another vet from another practice and funnily the vet that actually vetted my horse 12 years ago for me, and a friend who is with yet another practise have all said the same things, there is little point for testing for this and even less point in treating it unless the horse has laminitis.  Again all documented on previous posts.  

Some 60% of horses over 16 years have it.  Make of that what you will.  But there are lots and lots of horses that have it with no outward signs.  My horse has lost weight but he doesn't have any of the myriad of other symptoms cushings has.


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## Leo Walker (1 February 2017)

applecart14 said:



			My horse has lost weight but he doesn't have any of the myriad of other symptoms cushings has.
		
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Yes he does. You just listed quite a lot of them in that post.

Have you asked all these vets why he they wont give him a cushings test? Given his age and the things you list it would be one of the first things my vets would do. 

You claim to be very worried about this horse but you dont seem to be doing anything about it other than posting on here telling everyone all the many reasons he doesnt need a vet. I've had a similar situation where I was unhappy with the vets attitude and treatment. I got a second opinion.


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## Cecile (1 February 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			Yes he does. You just listed quite a lot of them in that post.

Have you asked all these vets why he they wont give him a cushings test? Given his age and the things you list it would be one of the first things my vets would do. 

You claim to be very worried about this horse but you dont seem to be doing anything about it other than posting on here telling everyone all the many reasons he doesnt need a vet. I've had a similar situation where I was unhappy with the vets attitude and treatment. I got a second opinion.
		
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I believe AC's vet is due out on Friday hence why she is stressing about her horse which is totally understandable 
Everyone is different and I am one of those who if I don't have the vet immediately if something is really bothering me I loose sleep, become a worry wart and overthink things but hey ho that is just me
Maybe AC finds it easier to write her worries or concerns down about her horse before the vet comes out
Hopefully Friday's vet visit will help resolve or find answers to the problem, its only 48hrs time ~ again I hate Friday aptm's due to not wanting to wait for any test results but my vet is brilliant and knows my phone works 24/7


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## applecart14 (1 February 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			Yes he does. You just listed quite a lot of them in that post.
		
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Pinworm is on the increase in older horses due to worming resistance and there are a huge amount of cases around at the moment.  The vet believes it was set off when the horse moved yards due to stress which ties in with the exact time he had it.  The vet has seen him three times since end of October about it.

 The bacterial leg infection was caused by going through water on a fun ride that had white foamy scum on the surface. THe horse carried the water in his bandages for over an hour before his legs were washed at the ride and when at home when he had a full bath - not because I thought the water would cause a problem. The infection did not become evident for around 30 hours after and the vet was called and it was treated and cleared VERY quickly.

The splenic entrapment is because his colon is raised slightly higher than most horses so when he has grass the gas from it pushes it up so it gets stuck between the spleen and the gut wall. Unfortunately he cannot have the injection needed because he suffers from 2nd degree heart block and it could bring on a fatal arrhymia.  It is 'just the way he was made' and something that I am extremely cautious of. The vet was called out immediately.

The intermittent lameness problem is due to a suspensory branch that was healed at great expense with the use of PRP when a freak accident happened after this (whilst I was at work I might add) which caused a huge response in scar tissue and some calcification to form, and it appears that this has built up within the branch causing impedment which the vet thinks shows as a mechanical lameness i.e. because the scar tissue impedes the ligament in a certain way.  He has been seen a number of times over the years and has responded well to rehab every time.

The weight loss started at the previous yard when the Y.O said I was using too much hay for my horse and told me to cut it down (it was falling through the net onto the floor and he was kicking shavings over it).  Although we paid £30 a month for ad lib hay we were still told what quantified an 'excess' amount and against my better judgement I started decreasing it.   The vet and I have discussed this a number of times and the vet says he looks fit and well.

The horse has put on a lot more weight since the yard move where he (and I) am extremely happy.  I have put him on Allen & Page Veteran Vitality and he has responded with a fantastic shiny coat and weight gain which many people on the yard have commented on.

I don't 'claim' to be worried about him.  I AM worried about him.  I don't need a second opinion for goodness sake. And I don't need you to tell me that I do.  I am not unhappy with my vets. I have always found them to be honest, trustworthy, reliable and extremely professional.

And the reason I am not 'doing anything about it' is because I have been advised to wait until Friday.


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## Leo Walker (1 February 2017)

Do you know what? I cant be bothered. I'm sure you make this stuff up to get attention when your bored at work. I now usually avoid reading or commenting on your posts for this exact reason.


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## Goldenstar (1 February 2017)

Applecart why it it ok for you to use * to hide the fact you are using an unpleasant rude word yet you button push others who do the same ?

On pin worm they can be a proper pain .
We did five day treatment with panacur guard they were wiped down all round there bums and docks with I think it was ivermectin lotion ( I  am not sure if I am remembering that right but will ask my friend, a vet f you want to know ) everyday for a week .
We also disinfected the stables carefully scrubbing down all rubbing points in the stables and the fields .


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## popsdosh (1 February 2017)

Im Sorry AC but you are the only person who winds yourself up into this state Why?
We have all tried to help and now are getting abuse back! People have on this thread tred to explain why they might do things differently it does not mean their wrong its what they would do but why if you are going to disagree do you start the thread in the first place as you do have known form on this! Your horses previous numerous problems really have no relevance in the thread so why feel the need to have to catalogue them every time.
I am sorry if you take that personally as its not meant to be . To be honest by the way you react you make yourself a target and people know it . If everytime this happens you end up in tears perhaps you need to figure out the reason because many others dont. Personal abuse is not acceptable on here.


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## Gloi (1 February 2017)

applecart14 said:



			The vets that I have spoken to myself (my own vets) another vet from another practice and funnily the vet that actually vetted my horse 12 years ago for me, and a friend who is with yet another practise have all said the same things, there is little point for testing for this and even less point in treating it unless the horse has laminitis.  Again all documented on previous posts.  

Some 60% of horses over 16 years have it.  Make of that what you will.  But there are lots and lots of horses that have it with no outward signs.  My horse has lost weight but he doesn't have any of the myriad of other symptoms cushings has.
		
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Really disagree with this (apart from the 60% of old horses having it) having seen how much difference testing for and treating Cushings has made to mine and others ponies.


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## Beausmate (1 February 2017)

If I were you, I'd be changing vets to one who is a bit more proactive.  Waiting until a horse has laminitis before treating the problem that caused it, isn't a good approach.  It's like saying 'I'm not going to worm my horse, because he hasn't lost loads of weight yet, so therefore he hasn't got worms.'

I have a skinny, old tb here.  He is 23 and has never had the slightest hint of lami.  He has had abscesses, lymphangitis, conjunctivitis, rain scald, sores on his heels, weight loss, random coughs and colds and it would appear he is allergic to some pollens too.  He also has difficulty regulating his body temperature.

His ACTH levels were only slightly high, but my vet thinks he could have had PPID for years.  Still no lami, so maybe I should just leave him to his weakened immune system and weight loss instead of giving him .5 of a tablet a day?

The lab tests are only £27.67, plus the visit and blood sample.  It's worth doing, just to rule it out.  My vet actually recommends the test for older horses who present with a range of problems, not just feet.


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## FfionWinnie (1 February 2017)

Don't get the mentality of being so upset you are crying with worry yet not getting the vet sooner. If you think it's urgent get the vet if you think it can wait what are you worrying about?


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## Pearlsasinger (1 February 2017)

I would not be happy if your vet were mine AC.

I have a heavy mare, for whom a bout of laminitis would be fatal.
 She was not quite right for a while over the summer, started a hoof abscess in September which kept recurring every time we thought we had cleared it up and got fungal infections on her skin at the drop of a hat.
We tested her ACTH level in summer, they were borderline, we retested in Oct and they were higher than normal. She started on 1 Prascend per day and 6 weeks later, the ACTH was back well within limits. Her abscess cleared up and she has been sound since Christmas, while her skin is vastly improved, too.
I certainly wouldn't be happy to wait until she had laminitis to do the test, it would be too late.
I do hope you get good news on Friday but if I were you, I would insist that ACTH levels are tested. Your vet will presumably be doing other blood tests, so I don't understand their reluctance. Our last test in December came back the next day.


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## applecart14 (2 February 2017)

Unbelievable that I have received an infraction from H&H forum after being pushed to the brink by some delightful person who suggested that I was making up my horses illnesses because I was bored at work. After all I have been through with my horses in the past and to feel the way I feel at the moment, worried and sick to my stomach with concern for my horse, my response was actually very reserved considering what  had led to this comment.

Shameful behavior and a very cowardly way of running to admin (bit playground like) after this person had pushed someone into saying something that they wouldn't have otherwise said had they been not so upset by such a disgusting comment.

It appears that this behavior is not only permitted but rewarded by Admin.  What a shame the post wasn't read from the start in context and maybe H&H admin would have a clearer picture of what led to me saying what I said.  But they appear blind to all this.

So many people lately have been coming on this forum lately saying "please don't shout at me" or "please don't have a go at me but".   It appears this forum is becoming a hot bed for harassment and online bullying and whilst I am not saying I am being bullied I do feel that I have been the subject of some very unkind and unnecessary words in the past.  To hide behind a user name and berate and brow beat people and push them into feeling so distressed and troubled is hardly the right thing to do and then to delight and revel in their response and push them into saying something in defence and then report them for doing so - unbelievably sick and cowardly.

I would like to salute those people who have always been there for me and have tried to help me and would personally like to thank them from the bottom of my heart.  And for those that are in their little cliques and gang up on people on this forum in the way they do I would just like to ask you to think about hurtful your actions are to others.

The people I know, fellow liveries, friends, relations, partner all say why do I put myself through it on this forum.  And I say that I come on here to help others, that is my first and foremost reason.  I love trying to help others through my own experiences.  I like to read about what is happening with others and try to help.  For that I suffer the abuse, but what abuse have I had to deal with!

But I have never had this nasty streak that is so evident with some of the posters on this forum and I thank the Lord that I have been brought up better than this and feel incredibly sorry for those that treat others with contempt because they are so lacking in self esteem that they do this to make themselves feel better.

So I am leaving this forum at last. I wish everyone well, even my persecutors.  Please have a long and hard think about how you treat others and get the help that you so evidently need x


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## Goldenstar (2 February 2017)

Leaving the forum is a good desision for you.
THinking it's fine to button push someone for using the star button in lieu of the of the letters in a rude word and then to do the same thing yourself a day later really shows a lack of insight.
On a forum like this people are never going to quietly go along with a poster who takes a hissy fit because they take personally when people disagree with them or what they are doing .
I wish you and Bailey luck.


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## FfionWinnie (2 February 2017)

Sounds like a good decision for you.  Not sure why you pretend to wish your "persecutors" well tho. The bitterness in your post rather negates any well wishes.


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## popsdosh (2 February 2017)

Obviously a short lived exit! New post 9.09


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## AdorableAlice (2 February 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I would not be happy if your vet were mine AC.

I have a heavy mare, for whom a bout of laminitis would be fatal.
 She was not quite right for a while over the summer, started a hoof abscess in September which kept recurring every time we thought we had cleared it up and got fungal infections on her skin at the drop of a hat.
We tested her ACTH level in summer, they were borderline, we retested in Oct and they were higher than normal. She started on 1 Prascend per day and 6 weeks later, the ACTH was back well within limits. Her abscess cleared up and she has been sound since Christmas, while her skin is vastly improved, too.
I certainly wouldn't be happy to wait until she had laminitis to do the test, it would be too late.
I do hope you get good news on Friday but if I were you, I would insist that ACTH levels are tested. Your vet will presumably be doing other blood tests, so I don't understand their reluctance. Our last test in December came back the next day.
		
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I have no interest in the OP or her horse other than to wish them both health and happiness.  I would like to share my experience of cushings.

Please look at this horse, this is an untreated cushings horse, picture was taken after he had just completed 10 months barn rest for a severely damaged hind check.  He obviously lost all top line, he was 18 years old when this picture was taken.   I am sure you will agree he looked well given what he had been through.  Does he look like a sick horse, no he doesn't but he was.







His rehab into a tiny paddock was fraught with problems, 2  abscesses on same side - you try dealing with that with poulticing ! it took four of us to hold him up, then a snotty nose.  He was tested immediately and was low level positive. He began treatment with 1/2 a tablet which went up to one and now aged 24 is 1 1/2 tablets daily and wintering very well.  I fear the summer as he has LV.

Any horse in middle age plus is worth testing before looking at anything else.  It is a very very common and nasty disease that can be managed.  Reading through this thread I honestly cannot imagine any equine vet making the claim that a teenage horse does not need testing for cushings.


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## ycbm (2 February 2017)

I'm with you on your last paragraph particularly PD. I have friends with a nine year old with a massive score, a ten year old with a moderate score, and a seven year old with a high score. It's no longer a disease only of old horses.


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## AdorableAlice (2 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			I'm with you on your last paragraph particularly PD. I have friends with a nine year old with a massive score, a ten year old with a moderate score, and a seven year old with a high score. It's no longer a disease only of old horses.
		
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I think along the lines of 5 to 10 as prime of life, 10 to 15 as middle aged and 15 plus as veteran.  I do totally agree that it is getting ever more common in younger horses.


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## Goldenstar (2 February 2017)

From last summer I am testing all my horses yearly when the vets do it for free .
They are all over ten and I think the sooner you know the better .


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## AdorableAlice (2 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			From last summer I am testing all my horses yearly when the vets do it for free .
They are all over ten and I think the sooner you know the better .
		
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Good idea, time ticks away so quickly I find myself forgetting how old the horses and me ! actually are.  I still refer to the carthorse and his girlfriend as the 'babies in the barn' but there are now rising 6.  In my head they are still the foals I brought up, and the 'young' maxi cob is now rising 10, and the most alarming bit is I am heading for 60.  Blooming frightening.


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## Goldenstar (2 February 2017)

Blooming frightening I deal with by laughing slightly hysterically.


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## Moomin1 (2 February 2017)

My 16yr old mare has recently started Prascend as she had a slightly high reading however she has no symptoms whatsoever and looks fantastic.  No abscesses/infections/lami etc.  I'm so glad I do know about it as hopefully now on the Prascend it will prevent her ever getting any of those along with close management.  I want her to live as long as possible so for me the test was worth every penny and more.


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## AandK (2 February 2017)

Beausmate said:



			If I were you, I'd be changing vets to one who is a bit more proactive.  Waiting until a horse has laminitis before treating the problem that caused it, isn't a good approach.  It's like saying 'I'm not going to worm my horse, because he hasn't lost loads of weight yet, so therefore he hasn't got worms.'

I have a skinny, old tb here.  He is 23 and has never had the slightest hint of lami.  He has had abscesses, lymphangitis, conjunctivitis, rain scald, sores on his heels, weight loss, random coughs and colds and it would appear he is allergic to some pollens too.  He also has difficulty regulating his body temperature.

His ACTH levels were only slightly high, but my vet thinks he could have had PPID for years.  Still no lami, so maybe I should just leave him to his weakened immune system and weight loss instead of giving him .5 of a tablet a day?

The lab tests are only £27.67, plus the visit and blood sample.  It's worth doing, just to rule it out.  My vet actually recommends the test for older horses who present with a range of problems, not just feet.
		
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Pearlsasinger said:



			I would not be happy if your vet were mine AC.

I have a heavy mare, for whom a bout of laminitis would be fatal.
 She was not quite right for a while over the summer, started a hoof abscess in September which kept recurring every time we thought we had cleared it up and got fungal infections on her skin at the drop of a hat.
We tested her ACTH level in summer, they were borderline, we retested in Oct and they were higher than normal. She started on 1 Prascend per day and 6 weeks later, the ACTH was back well within limits. Her abscess cleared up and she has been sound since Christmas, while her skin is vastly improved, too.
I certainly wouldn't be happy to wait until she had laminitis to do the test, it would be too late.
I do hope you get good news on Friday but if I were you, I would insist that ACTH levels are tested. Your vet will presumably be doing other blood tests, so I don't understand their reluctance. Our last test in December came back the next day.
		
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I do think we have to push vets sometimes for some of the more simple tests, if I wanted my horse tested for PPID then I would expect my vet to oblige.  To suggest there would be no need until after the horse sucumbs to a potentially fatal illness, is negligent in my mind.
My horse had a bout of intermitant, low level lameness last spring.  Flexion test and a couple of rounds of nerve blocks managed to narrow it down to the fetlock (horse was on week 6 of box rest at this stage) and vet wanted to come back again and x-ray as thought it was probably low level arthritis.  I insisted he scan the area to check it was not soft tissue, as then he could at least go back out in the field.  Vet was unsure, but I pushed and the scan revealed a minute bone chip in the outside suspensory branch.  No need for any further investigations, horse was field rested to see if chip would be reabsorbed, expelled or needed further intervention.  The rest did the job and horse has been sound since!
The horse in question is now 20, I have had him tested a couple of times since he was 16 for PPID.   The first time after a run of abscesses, and the second about this time last year when he got mud fever for the second winter in a row (after never having had it before).  Both times he was fine, fortunately.  But I'd rather test and he be fine, instead of waiting for him to be ill.


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## Tiddlypom (2 February 2017)

applecart14 said:



			The vets that I have spoken to myself (my own vets) another vet from another practice and funnily the vet that actually vetted my horse 12 years ago for me, and a friend who is with yet another practise have all said the same things, there is little point for testing for this and even less point in treating it unless the horse has laminitis.  Again all documented on previous posts.
		
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I sincerely hope that AC is mistaken, and that there aren't vets who think testing for PPID, even in elderly horses, should only come AFTER a lami attack. Some CPD should be actioned, if this is the case.

My 16yo mare has been tested for Cushing's since she was a 12yo, after a few niggles. She had a low ACTH at age 12, but next year her levels had doubled to near the threshold for treatment. Because of the rapid rise, coupled with her skin irritations, foot abscesses etc, she was immediately put onto 0.5 tablets per day, which has kept her levels ok til last month. Her recent assay showed a rise to 60, (twice the level it should be), so she is now on 1.0 tablets daily, with a retest due in 6 weeks to see if her levels have dropped back to a suitable level.

Her health has really improved since she has been on Prascend, and she looks fabulous. Alas, she does struggle with the veil and is currently very dopey as she adjusts to the extra prascend, but this will settle down in a few weeks.

I'll get my newish rising 11yo mare tested nest time, too. As other say, it's better to monitor and treat early rather than react to a crisis.


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## ester (2 February 2017)

It's a no brainier for me and I never understood either AC's or her vets reluctance to test, I thought about it on her first post about this but made any decision not to go over old ground. I speculatively tested at 19 and 23 during the free period both negative but still be useful particularly this last year when he had to have quite a lot of steroid useage which I was happier doing knowing he wasn't compromised elsewhere


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## AandK (2 February 2017)

AandK said:



			I do think we have to push vets sometimes for some of the more simple tests, if I wanted my horse tested for PPID then I would expect my vet to oblige.  To suggest there would be no need until after the horse sucumbs to a potentially fatal illness, is negligent in my mind.
My horse had a bout of intermitant, low level lameness last spring.  Flexion test and a couple of rounds of nerve blocks managed to narrow it down to the fetlock (horse was on week 6 of box rest at this stage) and vet wanted to come back again and x-ray as thought it was probably low level arthritis.  I insisted he scan the area to check it was not soft tissue, as then he could at least go back out in the field.  Vet was unsure, but I pushed and the scan revealed a minute bone chip in the outside suspensory branch.  No need for any further investigations, horse was field rested to see if chip would be reabsorbed, expelled or needed further intervention.  The rest did the job and horse has been sound since!
The horse in question is now 20, I have had him tested a couple of times since he was 16 for PPID.   The first time after a run of abscesses, and the second about this time last year when he got mud fever for the second winter in a row (after never having had it before).  Both times he was fine, fortunately.  But I'd rather test and he be fine, instead of waiting for him to be ill.
		
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Just to add, I seem to have contradicted myself there!  I realise I had my horse tested after he'd had abscesses/mud fever, so just wanted to clarify that when I said ill, I meant more along the lines of rapid weight loss/laminitis etc...


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## Beausmate (2 February 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Any horse in middle age plus is worth testing before looking at anything else.  It is a very very common and nasty disease that can be managed.  Reading through this thread I honestly cannot imagine any equine vet making the claim that a teenage horse does not need testing for cushings.
		
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I have seen worse, sadly.  Elderly horse, no topline, fat pads on hindquarters and shoulders, but ribby, and filled-in hollows above the eyes.  It presented with laminitis symptoms and a vet was called. The vet diagnosed laminits, said for the horse to be box rested for a week and given bute.  He put the lami down to mild weather increasing the grass growth, no mention of Cushing's.  The horse was given a large mollassed feed to get the bute down her and half a haynet to last all night, because you have to starve laminitics, right?  Unfortunately the owners had spoken to their vet and the vet said to give her bute for the week then turn her back out, the cause was the grass and that's all there was to it.  They weren't going to listen to anyone else, because they weren't vets and therefore didn't know what they were talking about.

Amazingly the horse is still alive.


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## ribbons (2 February 2017)

What I find really odd is the claimed vet attitude and advice. 
I know I can be a tad cynical at times, but I have never heard of a vet not wanting to attend for a few days when owner concerned, or being half hearted about testing for anything. They are a business, why turn custom down. 
I find most vets pretty keen to run any tests they think might help and even ones they think won't if the customer requests it.
All very odd.


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## Fragglerock (2 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			From last summer I am testing all my horses yearly when the vets do it for free .
They are all over ten and I think the sooner you know the better .
		
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Isn't it only the first test that's free?  I had a second free as the reading was in the grey area and the pain could have affected it but I have paid ever since.


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## ester (2 February 2017)

They are free for as long as they keep testing negative. 
Once they have tested positive it is chargeable.


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## Fragglerock (2 February 2017)

ester said:



			They are free for as long as they keep testing negative. 
Once they have tested positive it is chargeable.
		
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Ah that explains it   Mine had a reading in the 70's during the period when the levels are high, but dropped down to 25 later in the year.  He isn't on Prascend and I only had it done because the vet was there and his age.


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