# Breeding from a dun stallion



## HappyHorses:) (28 August 2010)

Ok does anyone know if dun is a dominate colour when breeding?

I know a lovely dun welsh d stallion who has had his first crop this year. Two are dun, one is bay and one chestnut!


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## xena_wales (28 August 2010)

Firstly you mean buckskin, not dun.  He has one cream gene, so has a 50/50 chance of passing this on.  Depends on what colour your mare is as to whether you're likely to get a bay based foal or not - what colour is she, what colour are her parent and any offspring?

Edit: also what colour are the stallion's parents as that may indicate whether he can make black foals or not.


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## HappyHorses:) (28 August 2010)

No I do mean dun.

The stallion in question is reg in the wpcs as dun as are both of his parents, grand dam and grand sire are also duns so that is three generations back.


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## xena_wales (28 August 2010)

Who's the stallion?  I don't think there's been any confirmed cases of true dun in Welsh??


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## HappyHorses:) (28 August 2010)

Sorry xena, my reply sounded a bit rude and wasn't ment to be  

I'm posting for a friend who was hoping to use this stallion next year for a bay mare and was hoping to get a dun foal as there was so much dun in the pedigree.

Why are they classed as dun in passports etc if they are really buckskin?!

I'll ask her his name again and let you know.

Thanks for your reply.


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## maggiemoto (28 August 2010)

We think it is a lack of knowledge regarding duns or buckskins.  In this country, dun is considered to be dun coloured regardless of markings. In the U.S, duns are different to buckskins, they know the difference and we don't!

We have a buckskin filly yet dun has been put on her passport/registration application and her microchip application form by our horse vet (done whilst the mare was at stud with them). She isn't dun, she lacks the dorsal strip and leg barrings.

Simply, as we understand it, if it hasn't got a black dorsal strip and leg barrings, it isn't a dun, it is a buckskin.

Speak to KarynK on the forum - she is a font of knowledge on the subject.


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## HappyHorses:) (28 August 2010)

It's confusing isn't it! 

You would think that would be careful with colour descriptions wouldn't you?!

I remember looking at the breeding with my friend and all of them were described as dun. Going to start saying buckskin from now on


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## cruiseline (28 August 2010)

Most horses that are described as DUN in their passports, are actually BUCKSKIN in reality and it is very confusing for people, especially those who are hoping to breed a colour. 

There are some distinct differences though, here are some good sources that will explain, hopefully .

http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/colors/dunfactors.html

http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/colors/buckskin.html

Hope that helps and does not add to the confusion


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## KarynK (29 August 2010)

It's a British thing, was looking at one of those little "guide To" illustrated booklets on colour the other day at a tack shop and sure enough it was WRONG on this and a number of other bits!!  So even our textbooks are WRONG!  The breed societies are also WRONG and have little understanding of how it all works.

The cream gene has two effects if you like the first is if it is inherited from one parent it pales the coat according to what the base colour is so

Chestnut + 1 cream = Palomino
Black + 1 cream = Black buckskin (1 cream has a very subtle effect on black so it's very hard to spot it)
Bay = Yellow Buckskin like Cruiseline's lovely boy
Brown = Bark buckskin that can look brown itself

Add another cream gene and you get 

Chestnut + 2 Cream = Cremello - a blue eyed cream
Brown/Bay + 2 cream = Perlino - can be hard to distinguish from the cremello
Black + 2 cream = smokey cream - can be a sort of fawn colour with the blue eyes

It's all the same gene at work and is dependant on the base colour of the horse.

So the confusion came visually as the cream on darker coats can sort of mimic Dun to the untrained eye, but the big clue is when the said "dun" produces a palomino or a blue eyed cream!

A dun cannot do this and a dun with 2 dun genes will look exactly the same as a dun with 1 gene.  Duns have other markings associated with the dun gene such as dorsal stripes (though some buckskins can have these), darker head colouring, leg barring etc.  A dun can never produce on its own a palomino or a blue eyed cream.

Until people start pressing the societies and telling them the difference and knowledgeable horsey people continue to write on a subject they clearly have not mastered then the error will run on!!  

That's why New Forest pony breeders continue to express surprise when a "DUN" produces a supposedly unreigisterable blue eyed cream, though apparently if you call said blue eyed cream a palomino you will get your papers!!!

They have it so wrong in the New Forest breed that they have banned light chestnuts with flaxen stallions believing that they are responsible for producing banned Palomino's when they turn out "DUN" (buckskin) stallions and wonder why they still get palominos and creams!  Go figure, but if you are going to discriminate against a colour, which is fair enough, get you head round the genetics first if you don't want to make yourself look less than perfect!!!

As far as I am aware the only true duns in the native ponies are seen in Highlands, though I have seen one red dun foal at the new forest pony sales last year (wonder where that came from???)


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## cruiseline (29 August 2010)

KarynK said:



			It's a British thing, was looking at one of those little "guide To" illustrated booklets on colour the other day at a tack shop and sure enough it was WRONG on this and a number of other bits!!  So even our textbooks are WRONG!  The breed societies are also WRONG and have little understanding of how it all works.

The cream gene has two effects if you like the first is if it is inherited from one parent it pales the coat according to what the base colour is so

Chestnut + 1 cream = Palomino
Black + 1 cream = Black buckskin (1 cream has a very subtle effect on black so it's very hard to spot it)
Bay = Yellow Buckskin like Cruiseline's lovely boy
Brown = Bark buckskin that can look brown itself

Add another cream gene and you get 

Chestnut + 2 Cream = Cremello - a blue eyed cream
Brown/Bay + 2 cream = Perlino - can be hard to distinguish from the cremello
Black + 2 cream = smokey cream - can be a sort of fawn colour with the blue eyes

It's all the same gene at work and is dependant on the base colour of the horse.

So the confusion came visually as the cream on darker coats can sort of mimic Dun to the untrained eye, but the big clue is when the said "dun" produces a palomino or a blue eyed cream!

A dun cannot do this and a dun with 2 dun genes will look exactly the same as a dun with 1 gene.  Duns have other markings associated with the dun gene such as dorsal stripes (though some buckskins can have these), darker head colouring, leg barring etc.  A dun can never produce on its own a palomino or a blue eyed cream.

Until people start pressing the societies and telling them the difference and knowledgeable horsey people continue to write on a subject they clearly have not mastered then the error will run on!!  

That's why New Forest pony breeders continue to express surprise when a "DUN" produces a supposedly unreigisterable blue eyed cream, though apparently if you call said blue eyed cream a palomino you will get your papers!!!

They have it so wrong in the New Forest breed that they have banned light chestnuts with flaxen stallions believing that they are responsible for producing banned Palomino's when they turn out "DUN" (buckskin) stallions and wonder why they still get palominos and creams!  Go figure, but if you are going to discriminate against a colour, which is fair enough, get you head round the genetics first if you don't want to make yourself look less than perfect!!!

As far as I am aware the only true duns in the native ponies are seen in Highlands, though I have seen one red dun foal at the new forest pony sales last year (wonder where that came from???)
		
Click to expand...

Thank you KarynK you always explain the colour genetics far better than I could ever do 

You have mentioned the highland as a carrier of the DUN gene, I have also seen it in Shetlands, but as far as I am aware there aren't any other British natives that carry it.

I have contacted the BEF and asked them to include Buckskin on their list of colours when entering youngsters for the futurity. One of my colts had to be entered as a DUN which he is most definitely not. I had to select a colour for my entry to be accepted, this is how the confusion continues


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## KarynK (29 August 2010)

Yes sorry how could I forget dun Shetlands, in fact as a kid I used to look after a lovely silver dun Shetland mare, a lovely real Thelwell type, she had a silver dun foal from a yearling Hackney colt (whoops) someone had him as a pleasure driving pony!  Shetlands seem to have quite a few dilute colours in them including champagne, silver dapple and the one they call Mushroom.  Don't know if they have pearl as well?  Shetlands are a good one to study as they have most if not all of the colours in one neat little bundle!

Hopefully the BEF will respond and be the first!!  Can't remember what I put down for my girls last year, very few cater for Appaloosas!!!  I always fill that bit in for my vets now as my vet thought the dark dun I bred was a bay!


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## HappyHorses:) (1 September 2010)

Thanks for all the advice!

KarynK- so well explained that was fab thanks you! 

I forwarded the info on to my friend and she googled pictures of all the 'dun' horses. Defo all buckskin.

Thanks for clearing it up.


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