# PSSM Diet



## emfen1305 (2 March 2017)

Having read a lot recently around this and googled the symptoms, I think my horse could potentially be a candidate due to his breed and how he acts. I wanted some advice on his diet to see if there are any absolute no no's and what I could add, if anything, to see if he improves. For context he is a 9yo cob x appy, good doer, was diagnosed with gastric ulcers and then hock arthritis after not wanting go forward. Can sometimes look tucked up and always quite stiff over his hind end. He looks better now due to the injections but just want to rule out anything else! 

He is currently in light work - 5 days a week hacking, schooling and 1 day lunging on a v large circle. We are just moving up a gear in terms of speed but a lot of time in walk. 

He is fed Readymash Fibre, Topspec Lite balancer, Suppleaze Gold for the arthritis, Protexin for his gut and Micronised Linseed also for his stomach. He doesn't need any more weight on him but is there anything I shouldn't be feeding? I understand there are different types of PSSM so is it just better to get him tested? 

Many thanks


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## paddy555 (2 March 2017)

there are lots of earlier threads on here about PSSM. You can test for type 1 £30, hair sample. Type 2 is more difficult ie muscle biopsy
Many just try diet for type 2 to give them some idea if it is type 2. 
Whatever the test results there is no treatment you just have to find the right management for that horse.
lots of info on FB "pssm forum"

for diet I feed
alfalfa pellets, 
copra
micro linseed
salt
a balancer
alcar
high dose vit E, around 10000iu per day of natural vit E. That is the most important ingredient in the diet. 

I always use an exercise sheet, warm up and down slowly and I over rug. For mine warmth is vital plus daily exercise. 
I am pretty sure mine is type 2 and  he responded very favourably to this diet and management.


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## emfen1305 (2 March 2017)

paddy555 said:



			there are lots of earlier threads on here about PSSM. You can test for type 1 £30, hair sample. Type 2 is more difficult ie muscle biopsy
Many just try diet for type 2 to give them some idea if it is type 2. 
Whatever the test results there is no treatment you just have to find the right management for that horse.
lots of info on FB "pssm forum"

for diet I feed
alfalfa pellets, 
copra
micro linseed
salt
a balancer
alcar
high dose vit E, around 10000iu per day of natural vit E. That is the most important ingredient in the diet. 

I always use an exercise sheet, warm up and down slowly and I over rug. For mine warmth is vital plus daily exercise. 
I am pretty sure mine is type 2 and  he responded very favourably to this diet and management.
		
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I have joined the FB group so will spend some time scrolling through there and through the other threads on here 

I think the only thing he is missing then is the Vitamin E and Alcar - he has a salt lick but I could always add a tablespoon in his feed. Which Vitamin E do you buy? I read the Equimins one is good. What made you think yours has PSSM? Thanks!


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## SEL (2 March 2017)

I have 2 with PSSM type 1 diagnosed by the genetic test. Its cheap and easy to do (Animal Genetics UK site) and definitely worth it to know what you are dealing with. 

My mare is currently not in a good position with the disease and its interesting that you say you had the hocks in your horse injected. The vets want to do that with her, but I'm currently after a second opinion because I'm concerned about steroid injections into a horse with a known metabolic problem. I only got my gelding tested because he was a high risk breed - finding out he was positive was a bit of a shock because he has no obvious symptoms.

In terms of diet.
I use kwik beet and copra for both horses as they are low sugar / starch, together with some oat chaff. I did use alfalfa but my mare has pink skin and it made her very sensitive to the sun. 
Oil for the mare - about 250ml, but I might be increasing that given our current problems.
salt - decent tablespoon each day.
vitamin E - I use the forage plus powdered natural vitamin E as I found Equimins oil a bit hard to deal with, especially if the yard had to feed on my behalf. Mare is on 10000iU, gelding 2000iU
Magnesium. A decent tablespoon for each horse.
Forage plus winter balancer (although about to change for the mare as it appears linseed upsets her tummy)

Alcar did nothing for either of my horses. I do add l-carnitine, but I'm yet to be convinced that does anything either. 

My mare is draft x Appy, so as soon as I read the PSSM description and the type of horses it affected I had a horrible feeling that was what she has. I'm glad I tested otherwise I think we would still be going round the loop of lameness exams / ulcers that weren't clearing up / behaviour issues etc. Given what you've said about your horse I would spend the £30 and see whether they are carrying the gene.


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## paddy555 (2 March 2017)

emfen1305 said:



			I have joined the FB group so will spend some time scrolling through there and through the other threads on here 

I think the only thing he is missing then is the Vitamin E and Alcar - he has a salt lick but I could always add a tablespoon in his feed. Which Vitamin E do you buy? I read the Equimins one is good. What made you think yours has PSSM? Thanks!
		
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I use the equimins one. He was never right muscle wise, worked far below his capabilities, was very spooky at nothing. He tied up and went down with a rider on and then went down twice afterwards in the field. His muscles were like rock. Blood tests showed that AST and CK levels were not going down as expected. My vet had no idea and had to ring the vet schools. They suspected PSSM as the place to start. I had already googled high AST, CK, RER etc etc. I knew PSSM was one cause of it but always thought that was the quarter horse disease. How wrong I was! Management for RER had failed and he wasn't responding anyway. 2 days into vit E and I started wondering, 4 days and he was a different horse. Alcar introduced later (do one thing at once) produced even further improved performance. Removed alcar and he slipped back a bit, reintroduced it and improvement again. 
I don't think they get enough salt from a lick. I give 2 x 20ml scoops of salt per day plus a 20ml scoop of bicarb (sodium hydrogen carbonate)


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## emfen1305 (3 March 2017)

SEL said:



			I have 2 with PSSM type 1 diagnosed by the genetic test. Its cheap and easy to do (Animal Genetics UK site) and definitely worth it to know what you are dealing with. 

My mare is currently not in a good position with the disease and its interesting that you say you had the hocks in your horse injected. The vets want to do that with her, but I'm currently after a second opinion because I'm concerned about steroid injections into a horse with a known metabolic problem. I only got my gelding tested because he was a high risk breed - finding out he was positive was a bit of a shock because he has no obvious symptoms.

In terms of diet.
I use kwik beet and copra for both horses as they are low sugar / starch, together with some oat chaff. I did use alfalfa but my mare has pink skin and it made her very sensitive to the sun. 
Oil for the mare - about 250ml, but I might be increasing that given our current problems.
salt - decent tablespoon each day.
vitamin E - I use the forage plus powdered natural vitamin E as I found Equimins oil a bit hard to deal with, especially if the yard had to feed on my behalf. Mare is on 10000iU, gelding 2000iU
Magnesium. A decent tablespoon for each horse.
Forage plus winter balancer (although about to change for the mare as it appears linseed upsets her tummy)

Alcar did nothing for either of my horses. I do add l-carnitine, but I'm yet to be convinced that does anything either. 

My mare is draft x Appy, so as soon as I read the PSSM description and the type of horses it affected I had a horrible feeling that was what she has. I'm glad I tested otherwise I think we would still be going round the loop of lameness exams / ulcers that weren't clearing up / behaviour issues etc. Given what you've said about your horse I would spend the £30 and see whether they are carrying the gene.
		
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I did look at the test and I think I will just get it done! He is definitely a candidate, hard bum muscles, camped under, never looks quite right behind. It was something I mentioned to the vet but we were already going down the bone scan route and found the arthritis so it got forgotten about! Is it quite easy to do? I read on the website it was 30-40 hairs (it will have to be from his tail as he is hogged) - is this what you did?

I'm sorry to hear about your mare. It seems the symptoms can range from quite serious tying up to just looking not right and I would say I am at the not right part which makes it harder to convince a vet! I did go with the steroid injections but we have absolutely no grass at the moment and the haylage isn't overly rich so I took my chance with the laminitis. I don't know about your grazing but my vet recommended now to be the best time to do it as we are coming into the lighter nights so could really get on with his rehab but the grass is still low in sugar due to not growing. 

It seems like the only thing I am missing is Vitamin E really and maybe some more salt. I think I will get some Vitamin E at the weekend and just start him on it while I'm waiting for the test results. Did you go through your vet for the test or have you done this off your own back? Many thanks!


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## emfen1305 (3 March 2017)

paddy555 said:



			I use the equimins one. He was never right muscle wise, worked far below his capabilities, was very spooky at nothing. He tied up and went down with a rider on and then went down twice afterwards in the field. His muscles were like rock. Blood tests showed that AST and CK levels were not going down as expected. My vet had no idea and had to ring the vet schools. They suspected PSSM as the place to start. I had already googled high AST, CK, RER etc etc. I knew PSSM was one cause of it but always thought that was the quarter horse disease. How wrong I was! Management for RER had failed and he wasn't responding anyway. 2 days into vit E and I started wondering, 4 days and he was a different horse. Alcar introduced later (do one thing at once) produced even further improved performance. Removed alcar and he slipped back a bit, reintroduced it and improvement again. 
I don't think they get enough salt from a lick. I give 2 x 20ml scoops of salt per day plus a 20ml scoop of bicarb (sodium hydrogen carbonate)
		
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The spooky at nothing sounds very much like my boy, I just assumed it was his nature and that could still be the case but he has been so stoic throughout all of his issues that it wouldnt surprise me if he was in a lot of pain! He has never gone down or tied up badly but he has always had sunken flanks, again i thought this was a conformation thing and the vets never showed any concern. Since really concentrating on only feeding non-molassed feed and no carrots etc this has improved slightly. I will give more salt and Vitamin E and do the test to see what I am dealing with. The hard part is convincing the vet who seems to think that I want him to be poorly, I just want to make sure he is 100% before pushing him too hard!


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## Christmas Crumpet (3 March 2017)

Mine is a coloured ISH (more cobby than ISH though!) who was normal for about the first week I had him and then got very spooky out riding. He hated cars coming past him although was fine when they drove up behind him. Had rock hard bum muscles, was very strange about tacking up etc. He tied up badly last January a couple of times and it took a fair while for come to go back to normal. Another thing I found was that he always felt cold backed when I first got on and it would take him about 100 yards before he relaxed if that makes sense. 

I changed his diet and put him on alfalfa pellets, alfa a oil, copra, speedibeet, micronised linseed, salt, 10,000 iU Vit E oil, Pro Hoof and Alcar and he improved. However it was only when I removed the Pro Hoof because I'd run out that he felt normal when I first got on. I didn't click at all so then put him on a Forage Plus Winter Balancer in December and then within a few days, he was back to being very tense in his back. Took him off it, back to normal. So for whatever reason, those kind of balancers make him symptomatic. Since coming off the balancers, he is the safest horse to hack out in the world and doesn't spook at anything. I rode this morning in the pouring rain and he didn't do a thing when cars came past him through the puddles. If you'd seen his reactions to cars and puddles last year, I doubt anyone would have ever wanted to ride him!! One day I was leading him out in hand, a car went through a puddle, he panicked, leapt out of the way and somersaulted over a barbed wire fence cutting himself quite badly. It was horrible. He could be lethal. So for him, the spooking is when he isn't right. If he starts spooking now, I will worry. Clearly he was fine for the first week I had him because I didn't start him on Pro Hoof till about the second week. 

I have been so strict about his management this year though - exercise sheet EVERY day. Turn out every day and ridden pretty much every day. If he has a day off, the next day he will walk to the village and that's it. He gets seen by a myofascial release person 3 times a year, saddle fitter fairly often as he does change shape. I clearly can't feed him a hoof supplement which won't be entirely helpful when he has his shoes off for his summer holiday at the end of this month but at least he's having a shoeing break for 3 months and out in the field. 

Once you've got the diet right, its like second nature but does seem like a faff to start with.


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## SEL (3 March 2017)

I sometimes think I'd have an easier time convincing people I'm a super model than convincing my vet that PSSM is at the root of my mare's problems! She never obviously ties up which doesn't 'help'. 

She is also super spooky when she's struggling. Her pet trait is to run backwards at high speed - doesn't matter what's behind her. I also describe her as cold backed and went through months when she was awful to mount, even from a block that's high enough for me to get on without putting any weight in the saddle.

Pulling the hairs is fairly easy (although both mine have manes). A pair of tweezers and a zip up freezer bag plus good light so you can make sure you've got a root on each hair. I was pretty sure I sent them quite a lot of dandruff (and possibly even a few lice!), but the tests were back in under 10 days so they must have had enough.

I did this off my own back rather than via the vet and sometimes I wonder whether that's half the problem in getting my vets on board with the fact that there is a muscular issue.


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## SEL (3 March 2017)

Carolineb - is yours type 1?


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## Christmas Crumpet (3 March 2017)

SEL said:



			Carolineb - is yours type 1?
		
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No - he came back n/n so I am pretty convinced he's type 2.


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## Christmas Crumpet (3 March 2017)

Forgot to say that my horse also had very bad thoroughpins last year which have completely gone. Whether this is because he is more comfortable in his body or not is debatable but I'd put my bottom dollar on it. He's far more relaxed in himself and is also a lot more open emotionally which may sound strange but he was very quietly defensive last year. He didn't do anything nasty, he just didn't give anything of himself in his character. Now he is very chatty and quietly whinnies at me in the field and stable when I appear, likes being groomed and having a cuddle and he appears very content within himself.


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## emfen1305 (3 March 2017)

Carolineb what you said about the personality and the spooking has really struck a chord, my boy is exactly the same, not quite to the extent of the spooking you talked about but he will almost look for things to spook at and is constantly on edge, chomps at the bit like no tomorrow despite having everything checked, i'm fairly convinced its a stress thing. He isn't nasty by any means but he does seem very tense and we all joke about this worried look that he has constantly but now maybe there really is something underlying. I will definitely be getting the test and getting some Vitamin E tomorrow. Sorry to be ignorant but will the packet tell me how much to feed? I've seen about iu per day, is it easy to work out? He is a 14.2 cob x appy, weighs between 500-550kg. Thanks!


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## SEL (3 March 2017)

You might struggle to buy a pure vitamin E supplement off the shelf - they are usually combined with selenium. Selenium is toxic if you feed too much & if you fed the mixed product at the rate to get 10000iU of vit E, then you're at dangerous selenium levels. 

Those of us who prefer powdered vitamin E to the equimins oil tend to use forage plus or progressive earth. Both mail order but both speedy. It's flippin expensive so make sure you feed it in something your horse wants to eat. Seeing a bucket emptied on the floor in a mare-ish strop did not make me happy this morning!

Also check for sugars in anything you buy - they sneak in everywhere!


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## emfen1305 (3 March 2017)

SEL said:



			You might struggle to buy a pure vitamin E supplement off the shelf - they are usually combined with selenium. Selenium is toxic if you feed too much & if you fed the mixed product at the rate to get 10000iU of vit E, then you're at dangerous selenium levels. 

Those of us who prefer powdered vitamin E to the equimins oil tend to use forage plus or progressive earth. Both mail order but both speedy. It's flippin expensive so make sure you feed it in something your horse wants to eat. Seeing a bucket emptied on the floor in a mare-ish strop did not make me happy this morning!

Also check for sugars in anything you buy - they sneak in everywhere!
		
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The ones with selenium are the only ones i've seen so i'll avoid those! Is this the one? https://forageplus.co.uk/product/natural-vitamin-e-horse/? How long does it last? Sorry for all of the questions! He does have treats for his stretches but i might buy fibre cubes instead as I know the treats are laden with sugar!


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## emfen1305 (3 March 2017)

SEL said:



			You might struggle to buy a pure vitamin E supplement off the shelf - they are usually combined with selenium. Selenium is toxic if you feed too much & if you fed the mixed product at the rate to get 10000iU of vit E, then you're at dangerous selenium levels. 

Those of us who prefer powdered vitamin E to the equimins oil tend to use forage plus or progressive earth. Both mail order but both speedy. It's flippin expensive so make sure you feed it in something your horse wants to eat. Seeing a bucket emptied on the floor in a mare-ish strop did not make me happy this morning!

Also check for sugars in anything you buy - they sneak in everywhere!
		
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The ones with selenium are the only ones i've seen so i'll avoid those! Is this the one? https://forageplus.co.uk/product/natural-vitamin-e-horse/? How long does it last? Sorry for all of the questions! He does have treats for his stretches but i might buy fibre cubes instead as I know the treats are laden with sugar!


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## Christmas Crumpet (3 March 2017)

emfen1305 said:



			Carolineb what you said about the personality and the spooking has really struck a chord, my boy is exactly the same, not quite to the extent of the spooking you talked about but he will almost look for things to spook at and is constantly on edge, chomps at the bit like no tomorrow despite having everything checked, i'm fairly convinced its a stress thing. He isn't nasty by any means but he does seem very tense and we all joke about this worried look that he has constantly but now maybe there really is something underlying. I will definitely be getting the test and getting some Vitamin E tomorrow. Sorry to be ignorant but will the packet tell me how much to feed? I've seen about iu per day, is it easy to work out? He is a 14.2 cob x appy, weighs between 500-550kg. Thanks!
		
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I would bite the bullet and buy the Equimins Vit E Oil. Yes its expensive but if you are only feeding one horse then it lasts for a long time. Through trial and error and thanks to a top tip from HHO, I decant it into a clean squeezy ketchup bottle which makes it so much easier to dispense. I don't actually measure mine but just count a steady 1,2 3 which from experience is about 10,000 IU. Other people suggest using a syringe to use it. My horse is quite fussy but has never refused his current diet and I would imagine the oil doesn't taste of much.


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## Casey76 (3 March 2017)

SEL said:



			You might struggle to buy a pure vitamin E supplement off the shelf - they are usually combined with selenium. Selenium is toxic if you feed too much & if you fed the mixed product at the rate to get 10000iU of vit E, then you're at dangerous selenium levels. 

Those of us who prefer powdered vitamin E to the equimins oil tend to use forage plus or progressive earth. Both mail order but both speedy. It's flippin expensive so make sure you feed it in something your horse wants to eat. Seeing a bucket emptied on the floor in a mare-ish strop did not make me happy this morning!

Also check for sugars in anything you buy - they sneak in everywhere!
		
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Tell me about it... Tartines dinner costs about 10&#8364; per day, and she is on hunger strike at the moment, it nearly always ends up on the floor at the moment


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## emfen1305 (3 March 2017)

carolineb said:



			I would bite the bullet and buy the Equimins Vit E Oil. Yes its expensive but if you are only feeding one horse then it lasts for a long time. Through trial and error and thanks to a top tip from HHO, I decant it into a clean squeezy ketchup bottle which makes it so much easier to dispense. I don't actually measure mine but just count a steady 1,2 3 which from experience is about 10,000 IU. Other people suggest using a syringe to use it. My horse is quite fussy but has never refused his current diet and I would imagine the oil doesn't taste of much.
		
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He's fairly fussy but he does love his mash so I could try and sneak it in there. Do you split between two feeds? He is fed in the morning for me so have to leave his breakfast soaking over night and i am always suspicious of how well things work if they've been left in mash for over 12 hours!


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## SEL (3 March 2017)

emfen1305 said:



			He's fairly fussy but he does love his mash so I could try and sneak it in there. Do you split between two feeds? He is fed in the morning for me so have to leave his breakfast soaking over night and i am always suspicious of how well things work if they've been left in mash for over 12 hours!
		
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If you are feeding dry powders then baby food containers (amazon) are your friend. I mix up a week's worth of drugs in a pot and stir it in just before feed time. I can then leave them for the yard to mix in when I'm away. Mine are both on just one feed at the moment. 

I've never found vitamin E a problem to feed (oil or powder) and it actually smells quite nice to me as well so I suspect that's why they are ok with it. Now magnesium is a whole different matter! Plus the white powder gets everywhere and i look like I've been snorting it.

If you go for the forage plus powder then a bag will probably last a couple of months depending on how much you feed. I've got 2 on it and one at 10000iU so it feels like it goes in a flash right now. Equimins oil is cheaper but definitely get the ketchup squeezy bottle thing sorted first otherwise the stuff gets everywhere.

https://forageplus.co.uk/product/natural-vitamin-e-horse/


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## Christmas Crumpet (3 March 2017)

emfen1305 said:



			He's fairly fussy but he does love his mash so I could try and sneak it in there. Do you split between two feeds? He is fed in the morning for me so have to leave his breakfast soaking over night and i am always suspicious of how well things work if they've been left in mash for over 12 hours!
		
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Mine has his with his breakfast. It clearly doesn't taste remotely offensive because he is very clear about whether something tastes revolting or not. Copra is amazing at disguising the taste of stuff though. 

I also know that feeling of despair as your horse won't eat the VERY expensive supplements you have so thoughtfully provided for him and you think they might have eaten some of their food but it is clear they have basically spat on it and walked off in disgust. I have been known to shout "eat your s*dding food you ungrateful b*gger, do you realise how much it cost? Do you realise that I'm just trying to help and make you better?" then stumble off in floods of tears and go and sit in the feed room crying like a small child. I don't imagine I'm the only one...


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## paddy555 (3 March 2017)

mine gets the equimins using the ketchup bottle method. I know approx what 8000iu looks like by now and spread it between am and pm. I don't put it in feed as it is too expensive to waste. The equimins one is £19 pm for 8000u per day. Mine gets another 2000iu from his supplement. The FP one is more expensive. I squeeze mine onto a slice of bread, the horse loves it and gobbles it up. All my horses get vit E (even the non PSSM ones). I think it is something missed out of horse feed. There is no vit E in grass Oct to Mar and very little in hay. That means a horse is getting very very little for half the year. The equimins oil doesn't taste of anything.


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## emfen1305 (3 March 2017)

SEL said:



			If you are feeding dry powders then baby food containers (amazon) are your friend. I mix up a week's worth of drugs in a pot and stir it in just before feed time. I can then leave them for the yard to mix in when I'm away. Mine are both on just one feed at the moment. 

I've never found vitamin E a problem to feed (oil or powder) and it actually smells quite nice to me as well so I suspect that's why they are ok with it. Now magnesium is a whole different matter! Plus the white powder gets everywhere and i look like I've been snorting it.

If you go for the forage plus powder then a bag will probably last a couple of months depending on how much you feed. I've got 2 on it and one at 10000iU so it feels like it goes in a flash right now. Equimins oil is cheaper but definitely get the ketchup squeezy bottle thing sorted first otherwise the stuff gets everywhere.

https://forageplus.co.uk/product/natural-vitamin-e-horse/

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Oh that's a good idea, I don't know why i never thought about it! I'll definitely do that with the supplements he's on now! Haha yes i felt like that when i fed him Equishure, it was like a cloud of white smoke! Do you think it's worth just getting him tested first before making all the changes? I don't want to spend £90 on the Vitamin E oil for him not to have it (though i suspect he does..)


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## emfen1305 (3 March 2017)

carolineb said:



			Mine has his with his breakfast. It clearly doesn't taste remotely offensive because he is very clear about whether something tastes revolting or not. Copra is amazing at disguising the taste of stuff though. 

I also know that feeling of despair as your horse won't eat the VERY expensive supplements you have so thoughtfully provided for him and you think they might have eaten some of their food but it is clear they have basically spat on it and walked off in disgust. I have been known to shout "eat your s*dding food you ungrateful b*gger, do you realise how much it cost? Do you realise that I'm just trying to help and make you better?" then stumble off in floods of tears and go and sit in the feed room crying like a small child. I don't imagine I'm the only one...
		
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Haha no definitely not the only one! My horse has a tick when eating so will fling his head around and often stamp his foot in the bucket - we don't know why he does it, i'm currently trying him on a sweet itch supplement that helped last year and i stupidly took him off it over winter. Anyway last night he went to put his foot in the bucket and I practically rugby tackled him out of way as mash just disappears into the shavings! I then proceeded to hand feed him every last scrap whilst the other liveries look on in amusement...


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## scats (3 March 2017)

I had a nightmare trying to find something my mare would eat that seemed to have any positive effect on her.  What is currently working for us is fibre force and Saracen shape up Balancer and added salt.


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## SEL (3 March 2017)

emfen1305 said:



			Do you think it's worth just getting him tested first before making all the changes? I don't want to spend £90 on the Vitamin E oil for him not to have it (though i suspect he does..)
		
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I would do both. Vitamin E is a great anti oxidant and there are horses that have got a lot better with the addition of it into their diet who dont have PSSM.


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## SEL (3 March 2017)

scats said:



			I had a nightmare trying to find something my mare would eat that seemed to have any positive effect on her.  What is currently working for us is fibre force and Saracen shape up Balancer and added salt.
		
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Type 1? Given I'm having no luck right now I'm always looking at what people feed!


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## ycbm (3 March 2017)

I have two. My QHx tests negative for one, but has a brilliant response to alcar, selenium and vitamin E. The other hasn't been tested but has had a great response to the same diet. However, he isn't doing as well right now and I am wondering if he's getting worse as he gets older 

He's had a few stiff days lately, and this thread has prompted me to double his vitamin E tomorrow. I have been able to drop it back to a normal dose, but something is going on so I will start with that.

The first horse was horribly spooky too and still seems afraid of life and constantly seeking reassurance. Not much stamina, either.  The second has been uncharacteristically looking for things to spook at for about three weeks. Another one I knew of was also a fretful horse, ridiculously concerned about the noise of rain on a roof.


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## SEL (3 March 2017)

Spookiness does seem to be a common theme with PSSM horses.


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## RunRunReindeer (4 March 2017)

Please could anyone tell me how long after introducing Vitamin E they have seen a difference in their horse? (I mean how long does it take to see a difference  ).Thanks.


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## Christmas Crumpet (4 March 2017)

I didn't actually see a huge difference till I removed the balancer. I was told on here to remove everything extra from the basic diet and start from there. So a balancer makes mine symptomatic, linseed another persons. Make sure you've got vit e and salt though.


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## SEL (5 March 2017)

RunRunReindeer said:



			Please could anyone tell me how long after introducing Vitamin E they have seen a difference in their horse? (I mean how long does it take to see a difference  ).Thanks.
		
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I think there's too many variables for an easy answer to that question. I tend to trial changes for a fortnight - & hope for a miracle!!


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## paddy555 (5 March 2017)

RunRunReindeer said:



			Please could anyone tell me how long after introducing Vitamin E they have seen a difference in their horse? (I mean how long does it take to see a difference  ).Thanks.
		
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couple of days for mine to be just a little bit nicer, around 4 days when it became obvious something was happening, a week and we were sure of a difference. Mine was clearly very deficient and also most likely PSSM with solid muscles and sore. The spookiness stopped immediately. The week before he was a nightmare to take out. Some days OK yet the next he would go on the same route he had done a  hundred times before and spook continuously. The vit E put an end to spooking.


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## emfen1305 (6 March 2017)

Plucked out tail hairs much to the protest of the poor pony but hopefully have enough. I'm going to send them off today. In the meantime I have taken him off the balancer so he is only on mash and a couple of supplements for his various issues! Holding off on buying the Vitamin E until I get the results, if he doesn't have it then i'll be going back to the vets as the poor boy looked really down in the dumps this weekend and I don't think it was weather related!


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## paddy555 (6 March 2017)

emfen1305 said:



			Plucked out tail hairs much to the protest of the poor pony but hopefully have enough. I'm going to send them off today. In the meantime I have taken him off the balancer so he is only on mash and a couple of supplements for his various issues! Holding off on buying the Vitamin E until I get the results, if he doesn't have it then i'll be going back to the vets as the poor boy looked really down in the dumps this weekend and I don't think it was weather related!
		
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don't forget that the test will only be for type 1. I suspect that there are many more type 2 horses. If yours is one of these then, unless you biopsy, the only way i can see you will get a any idea is the type 2 management regime.


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## SEL (6 March 2017)

emfen1305 said:



			Plucked out tail hairs much to the protest of the poor pony but hopefully have enough. I'm going to send them off today. In the meantime I have taken him off the balancer so he is only on mash and a couple of supplements for his various issues! Holding off on buying the Vitamin E until I get the results, if he doesn't have it then i'll be going back to the vets as the poor boy looked really down in the dumps this weekend and I don't think it was weather related!
		
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Keep us posted. If it comes back negative then there's been a lot of work over in the US on the correct diet for type 2 PSSM cases and the FB forum is a good source of info.


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## emfen1305 (6 March 2017)

Just spent some time reading through this thread http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?725093-Epsm-pssm and decided to get the oil some mag ox, I am very fickle haha. I bought the Equimins Vit E oil and found they did it in a smaller bottle so just went for the 500ml rather than the 1l. Mag Ox is cheap and my friend uses it so I can just give it to her if it has adverse effect, I got the 99.9% one, I dont know if that is right (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Magnesium...541894?hash=item41979d49c6:g:bdIAAOSwpdpVeZiP) ! I didn't get the Alcar yet as he is quite fussy and I don't want to overwhelm him with too many new things and it seems that the Vit E is the most important thing. Hopefully they will arrive in the next couple of days. I will push on with the exercise and just try and stick to hacking as he is the most forward out hacking and I can just about get out for half an hour before it gets too dark!


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## jgmbng (6 March 2017)

Emden 
I am on the same journey, plucked and sent off mane hairs last week and have added Vitamin E and Alcar  and will start the mag ox soon. Pony has been under the vet for 2 years for 'colic like' symptoms, lethargy and other problems that are listed as possible PSSM symptoms. Vet always assumed gut problems as being the only cause of his symptoms but after recommendations from other members to have him tested I have gone ahead and also changed his diet.
I will be sooooooo cross if it turns out to be this as I have lost 2 years with him and now have an exclusion for gastrointestinal issues on my insurance.


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## paddy555 (6 March 2017)

jgmbng said:



			Emden 
I am on the same journey, plucked and sent off mane hairs last week and have added Vitamin E and Alcar  and will start the mag ox soon. Pony has been under the vet for 2 years for 'colic like' symptoms, lethargy and other problems that are listed as possible PSSM symptoms. Vet always assumed gut problems as being the only cause of his symptoms but after recommendations from other members to have him tested I have gone ahead and also changed his diet.
I will be sooooooo cross if it turns out to be this as I have lost 2 years with him and now have an exclusion for gastrointestinal issues on my insurance.
		
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mine even managed to go to a horse hospital as an emergency for colic like symptoms. No one even suggested it and I wasted around 4 years before  working it out. 
Don't forget in addition to high dose vit E warmth in the form of exercise sheets and rugging are very important to some. Mine needs twice the thickness of rug a normal horse would need.


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## ycbm (6 March 2017)

I'm another who had a horse who appeared to be colicking. Kicking the floor, looking round at his stomach, sweating, fretful,etc. But I could hear gut noises. Luckily I found false colic quickly on Google as an EPSM symptom, and since he's QH breeding it made sense immediately.


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## jgmbng (6 March 2017)

paddy555 said:



			mine even managed to go to a horse hospital as an emergency for colic like symptoms. No one even suggested it and I wasted around 4 years before  working it out. 
Don't forget in addition to high dose vit E warmth in the form of exercise sheets and rugging are very important to some. Mine needs twice the thickness of rug a normal horse would need.
		
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Its so frustrating isn't it.
Hugo has been scoped, scanned,had months of steroids,been wormed umpteen times, had a rectal biopsy and prodded and poked for 2 years with no real answer.


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## SEL (6 March 2017)

I spent a lot of money treating fairly minor ulcers without any improvement in how S &#373;as going. It was pure fluke I found out about PSSM -I was reading up about something else on the animal genetics website and with her breeding it made sense.

From various frustrating discussions with vets since diagnosis it does seem to be that they look for a full on tie up rather than the "minor" symptoms. My mare is a stereotypical PSSM case - french draft, struggles with farrier, stiff gait, solid bum muscles, good doer, - but she's never collapsed and started pee'ing brown liquid so I'm told she's not very symptomatic. I'm currently changing vets!


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## emfen1305 (13 March 2017)

Still waiting for the results from Animal Genetics, hopefully won't be much longer! Going to start on the pure vitamin E tonight, already started adding salt and magnesium over the weekend. Just been landed with a £250 vets bill from the colic and sedation from when he came back from horspital, I only have £1000 left on my insurance and suspect he will need another scope and more hock injections from this, coupled with working out i've also spent £300+ over the last couple of months to try and get things checked to make sure there is absolutely nothing else wrong and him still not quite feeling himself I'm starting to contemplate just calling it a day  I don't want to push him if he isn't right but I don't want to give up on him! I don't have any other horses to ride and having spent 6 months before the hock arthritis not being able to ride either I am a bit fed up of spending £200+ a month and not being able to do what I like! Sorry for the whingy post, just at my wits end with it all!


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## jgmbng (13 March 2017)

I feel your pain. I have 2 field ornaments. 
The first was diagnosed with hock problems, followed swiftly by annular ligament problems both within 6 months of purchase. He also has sweetitch and COPD.
Bought Hugo 2 years ago and still don't really know what is wrong with him (also awaiting results from mane testing). We bought a property with land to realise our dream and its just not worked out that way. It has been a big expense for little return (love both ponies but didn't want a field of broken ones !)
I started the vitamin E 2 weeks ago and am now introducing Alcar a bit at a time as he has rather a delicate tummy.
I only ever wanted a horse for hacking but neither are capable at the mo.


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## SEL (13 March 2017)

emfen1305 said:



			Still waiting for the results from Animal Genetics, hopefully won't be much longer! Going to start on the pure vitamin E tonight, already started adding salt and magnesium over the weekend. Just been landed with a £250 vets bill from the colic and sedation from when he came back from horspital, I only have £1000 left on my insurance and suspect he will need another scope and more hock injections from this, coupled with working out i've also spent £300+ over the last couple of months to try and get things checked to make sure there is absolutely nothing else wrong and him still not quite feeling himself I'm starting to contemplate just calling it a day  I don't want to push him if he isn't right but I don't want to give up on him! I don't have any other horses to ride and having spent 6 months before the hock arthritis not being able to ride either I am a bit fed up of spending £200+ a month and not being able to do what I like! Sorry for the whingy post, just at my wits end with it all!
		
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Whinge away! My PSSM mare also has hock arthritis and is currently not rideable, so you have my sympathy. I'm having a 2nd opinion before we give her steroid injections into her hocks, including having her back x-rayed. I've already got one pasture pet, so she was supposed to be my ridden horse. I'd be happy if she gets to the stage where she can hack without issue - I've given up hoping for anything else!


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## emfen1305 (13 March 2017)

jgmbng said:



			I feel your pain. I have 2 field ornaments. 
The first was diagnosed with hock problems, followed swiftly by annular ligament problems both within 6 months of purchase. He also has sweetitch and COPD.
Bought Hugo 2 years ago and still don't really know what is wrong with him (also awaiting results from mane testing). We bought a property with land to realise our dream and its just not worked out that way. It has been a big expense for little return (love both ponies but didn't want a field of broken ones !)
I started the vitamin E 2 weeks ago and am now introducing Alcar a bit at a time as he has rather a delicate tummy.
I only ever wanted a horse for hacking but neither are capable at the mo.
		
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Sorry to hear that, I suppose I should count myself lucky that he is sound and that I can actually ride but I don't enjoy it as I am consistently worried about him not being right! I like a good hack don't get me wrong but I am running out of places to go and I also like to school and jump (I bought him to be an all rounder). Currently avoiding any schooling and jumping by telling myself that he hacking will make it all better but really I think I'm just worried about going back in the arena as I know he isn't going to enjoy it which really makes me think I should sell him as a happy hacker and get myself something that will do what I want. It's so difficult, I would be heart broken if I had to but it's very selfish of me to keep pushing him when he clearly doesn't enjoy it, I've been trying for almost 2 years now!

ETA: Have you seen any difference with the Vit E yet?


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## emfen1305 (13 March 2017)

SEL said:



			Whinge away! My PSSM mare also has hock arthritis and is currently not rideable, so you have my sympathy. I'm having a 2nd opinion before we give her steroid injections into her hocks, including having her back x-rayed. I've already got one pasture pet, so she was supposed to be my ridden horse. I'd be happy if she gets to the stage where she can hack without issue - I've given up hoping for anything else!
		
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Oh I really feel like I shouldn't moan, at least I can hack but he just mooches along and constantly needs kicking forward. Every time we go round a corner he turns for home and when we finally do go back it's the only time he really looks like he's enjoying himself! Just so difficult to know whether to keep ploughing money into him (next step is an oesteopath) or to just call it quits and either retire him or sell him to a light hacking home!


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## jgmbng (13 March 2017)

I don't think I have seen a difference yet, I started Alcar and Salt together last week but he had a bout of the runs shortly after so I have left them both out of his feed for a few days and started just the Alcar again this week. 
He lives out 24/7 so I only have his demeanor to go off at the moment until I can bring myself to start riding again, last time he just felt so bad I haven't tacked up since !
He seems to have some days of being a normal rising 6 year old pony and others when he is quite quiet.
Just read your last post...yours sounds just like mine out hacking, only walks on when he knows we are going home but is so slow otherwise.


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## emfen1305 (13 March 2017)

jgmbng said:



			I don't think I have seen a difference yet, I started Alcar and Salt together last week but he had a bout of the runs shortly after so I have left them both out of his feed for a few days and started just the Alcar again this week. 
He lives out 24/7 so I only have his demeanor to go off at the moment until I can bring myself to start riding again, last time he just felt so bad I haven't tacked up since !
He seems to have some days of being a normal rising 6 year old pony and others when he is quite quiet.
Just read your last post...yours sounds just like mine out hacking, only walks on when he knows we are going home but is so slow otherwise.
		
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I didn't get the alcar as of yet as previously mentioned vet bills, trying to save as much as i can so i can eat some human food this month!

I do try and really get on at him so we don't just mooch along, I am quite firm. It doesn't help that he actively looks for things to spook at though, he spends more time looking around for scary things which means we don't actually walk forward in straight line, he has always been like this though! The reason I started to suspect issues was the fact that he no longer wanted to even trot on a stubble field, let alone go for a good blast, I have never had a horse that doesn't enjoy going on the stubbles, even my friend's 13hh traditional gypsy cob who hadn't been ridden properly in almost a year chucked in a little bronc and squeal as soon as we started cantering! I'm just at a loss, my friends say I should sell and buy something more suitable as it would be better for us both but my heart breaks every time I think about it!


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## jgmbng (13 March 2017)

Fingers crossed we both get an answer soon.


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## emfen1305 (14 March 2017)

Just got the results back from Animal Genetics - he is n/n for PSSM 1 which is good news I suppose. I don't really know what the next steps are, I know that muscle biopsy is the only way to test for PSSM 2 but from what i've read most people just try the diet to see if it helps. He is still on the ready mash fibre and balancer, I have added salt, 10g per day of magnesium, 10ml (10000iu of vit e oil as of yesterday) and reintroduced micronised linseed. He is on ad lib haylage (hay really isn't an option at the mo but will continue to look into it) and pretty poor grazing. Aside the Alcar, is there anything else I should look at or just continue with this?


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## SEL (14 March 2017)

The type 2 crowd on the FB forum are into protein supplementation, but I'd stick with your dietary changes for a few weeks first and see if they make any difference.

The ONLY thing I was grateful for after getting results back from AG was that i had an answer. Sadly, unless you're prepared to send blood to the US, I think it's going to be a while until commercial testing for the other muscle myopathies is available in the UK.


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## emfen1305 (14 March 2017)

SEL said:



			The type 2 crowd on the FB forum are into protein supplementation, but I'd stick with your dietary changes for a few weeks first and see if they make any difference.

The ONLY thing I was grateful for after getting results back from AG was that i had an answer. Sadly, unless you're prepared to send blood to the US, I think it's going to be a while until commercial testing for the other muscle myopathies is available in the UK.
		
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Yeah I had seen something about pure protein supplements etc but I get a bit worried about overloading him with too much stuff, i think what i feed a the moment is quite safe in terms of him getting rid of what he doesn't need! 

Given that he is currently sound, eating and drinking normally and able to go out (touch wood!) I don't want to go down the expensive route of getting blood sent. I will continue to keep him moving and increase his workload to see how he reacts to this. His posture has been improving and i've been very vigilant with his stretches, warm up and warm downs and the only thing that concerns me now are his flanks which are still quite sunken but he has always looked like this so I don't know whether it is a bit of a conformation thing!


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## jgmbng (14 March 2017)

My results are back too....also negative, which means I still don't have an answer  .
I am going to carry on with the PSSM diet for a few weeks, but back to theory number 100028 which is one before the PSSM theory, which is that he has an intolerance to 'something'  on my land.


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## paddy555 (14 March 2017)

jgmbng said:



			My results are back too....also negative, which means I still don't have an answer  .
I am going to carry on with the PSSM diet for a few weeks, but back to theory number 100028 which is one before the PSSM theory, which is that he has an intolerance to 'something'  on my land.
		
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sorry bit lost. A negative result means not PSSM1 but could therefore still be type 2?


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## emfen1305 (14 March 2017)

jgmbng said:



			My results are back too....also negative, which means I still don't have an answer  .
I am going to carry on with the PSSM diet for a few weeks, but back to theory number 100028 which is one before the PSSM theory, which is that he has an intolerance to 'something'  on my land.
		
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such a bittersweet result! I dont think any of us would wish anything on our horses of course but it would be nice to have something concrete to go off rather than "he could just be like this" or "it might have just been his hocks". When you know your horse isn't right it's very frustrating! I hope you find out the issue!


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## emfen1305 (14 March 2017)

paddy555 said:



			sorry bit lost. A negative result means not PSSM1 but could therefore still be type 2?
		
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Yes unfortunately. I think most people (especially in the UK) just test for type 1 as it is cheap and easy. If the results come back negative people will still  feed as if it is type 2 to see if it makes a difference. If it does, the assumption is the horse has type 2 and if no difference whatsover then either something else going on that isn't PSSM or something else is aggravating it. As far as I'm aware the only way they can test for type 2 is muscle biopsy or blood as SEL commented so I don't think many people, including myself, go down that route unless the symptoms are really bad i guess..


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## jgmbng (14 March 2017)

I am aware that it still could be type 2, this is why I am carrying on with the diet 
Always someone waiting to pounce !


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## jgmbng (14 March 2017)

emfen1305 said:



			such a bittersweet result! I dont think any of us would wish anything on our horses of course but it would be nice to have something concrete to go off rather than "he could just be like this" or "it might have just been his hocks". When you know your horse isn't right it's very frustrating! I hope you find out the issue!
		
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You too....its been almost two years up to now, he is going to be a veteran at this rate !


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## SEL (14 March 2017)

Have either of your vets done a blood test for selenium levels? Lack of iodine can also apparently cause symptoms similar to tying up. Not sure what the levels are like in your soil.


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## jgmbng (14 March 2017)

We have had several rounds of blood tests, would selenium be on a full profile ? or would it be a separate test ?


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## emfen1305 (15 March 2017)

SEL said:



			Have either of your vets done a blood test for selenium levels? Lack of iodine can also apparently cause symptoms similar to tying up. Not sure what the levels are like in your soil.
		
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I haven't had any bloods done actually, mainly because my vets have settled on the ulcers and arthritis being the issue, I haven't even discussed PSSM with him! We have poor grazing, infact bar the scraps they get from the banks we are more onto just turn out now until they are allowed back in the other half of the field in June, I don't know if that makes a difference. Is there anything I could feed to see if this is the case?


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## SEL (15 March 2017)

My vets can't test for selenium at their internal lab - so its on the list of 'things to discuss with the vet doing the 2nd opinion'. I follow the US and German facebook forums and its common for them to have selenium levels tested as part of a full blood panel, but we seem to have to request it here in the UK, so no idea whether it would be on your blood panel. The site I've posted the link to below is pretty good at giving you an indication whether or not levels are high / low in the soil in your area. It also does other minerals too.

For the first time since my horses were diagnosed they are in a paddock that is likely to be 'theirs' for a while, so even though I'm on livery I'm going to run a soil test and see whether its lacking in anything. My gelding responds well to the forage plus winter balancer, but the mare is the one I'm struggling with so I'd be interested to see whether I need to feed her something specific to balance to the soil, rather than a general balancer.

My vet also believes her problems are anything apart from muscular - hence heading for a 2nd opinion. 

http://www.ukso.org/nsi/Selenium.html


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## Casey76 (15 March 2017)

SEL said:



			My vets can't test for selenium at their internal lab - so its on the list of 'things to discuss with the vet doing the 2nd opinion'. I follow the US and German facebook forums and its common for them to have selenium levels tested as part of a full blood panel, but we seem to have to request it here in the UK, so no idea whether it would be on your blood panel. The site I've posted the link to below is pretty good at giving you an indication whether or not levels are high / low in the soil in your area. It also does other minerals too.

For the first time since my horses were diagnosed they are in a paddock that is likely to be 'theirs' for a while, so even though I'm on livery I'm going to run a soil test and see whether its lacking in anything. My gelding responds well to the forage plus winter balancer, but the mare is the one I'm struggling with so I'd be interested to see whether I need to feed her something specific to balance to the soil, rather than a general balancer.

My vet also believes her problems are anything apart from muscular - hence heading for a 2nd opinion. 

http://www.ukso.org/nsi/Selenium.html

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It's really worth pushing for a selenium test.  Deficiency in selenium can also cause muscle soreness, as well as an increase in liver enzymes along with increased muscle enzymes.


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## emfen1305 (15 March 2017)

I am firmly within the red zone according the map but given there is no grass at the moment i don't know if he is actually getting any! I currently feed a Vit E & Selenium supplement at the recommended daily amount and then he gets the extra Vit E top up with the equimins oil as I read that Selenium in high quantities is toxic..


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## jgmbng (16 March 2017)

I too am in a red zone for selenium, however I am in a dark blue area for magnesium.
I struggle with balancers/vits and mins as there always seems to be something in them that doesn't agree with his delicate tummy. 
I am currently gradually introducing about the 7th which only contains alfalfa as a filler.


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## ycbm (16 March 2017)

You don't need to feed a complete supplement. I supplement only magnesium, copper, zinc, selenium brewer's yeast , vitamin E and alcar, balanced to blood tests. I'm very high on copper and zinc, far higher than any of the supplements, and half on selenium.

My vet tells me that there are no recognised tables of levels in blood for horses, so they have to use the one for cows and hope horses are the same.


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## spotty_pony2 (17 March 2017)

I would definitely test for Type 1 - I did for my boy and it was negative thank goodness. He is kept on a high fibre/low starch diet anyway though as are all of my horses.

Also, be very careful supplementing things such as Vitamin E without a proper diagnosis as two much Vitamin E is actually taxi to horses and can cause more harm than good.


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## SEL (17 March 2017)

spotty_pony2 said:



			I would definitely test for Type 1 - I did for my boy and it was negative thank goodness. He is kept on a high fibre/low starch diet anyway though as are all of my horses.

Also, be very careful supplementing things such as Vitamin E without a proper diagnosis as two much Vitamin E is actually taxi to horses and can cause more harm than good.
		
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Selenium is toxic at relatively low amounts, but vitamin E has been tested at high doses on horses without any proven ill effects.


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## Casey76 (21 March 2017)

And just to be contrary, Tartine has been off ALCAR for about 2 weeks and has improved significantly :/ horses!


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