# Rollkur/Hyperflexion



## ShowjumpingPrincess (27 May 2013)

Hi!

   My family have quite a lot of sport horses (various disciplines though most of my ponies are show jumpers.) with all our dressage horses we work them using Hyperflexion (not the really extreme stuff, but so that they are behind the vertical with their heads low and in) we don't make them touch their chests with their noses or anything, but we do get them quite far back. They don't seem unhappy at all about it and we only ever do it using a snaffle bit and we have even done it with a hackamore! None of the horses have ever experienced problems as a result of this and the results are really effective! One horse was so badly behaved that the owner was going to have it put to sleep and using Hyperflexion we have got it working really well. Our horses all enjoy their work and we never use draw reins or side reins to make them stay in the Hyperflexion position unless we are lunging (and we always use elasticated ones)

    Quite a few people on the show circuit have been really sceptical about it and the other day a group of girls said that I torture horses and were telling everyone that I abuse my ponies! Plus, they did all his AFTER I had gone and beaten them in their class! I don't even use Hyperflexion on my show jumpers!

  WHAT DO I DO? is Hyperflexion really that bad??


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (27 May 2013)

And we only ever do it for around five minutes at a time,maximum 15minutes


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## Purple18 (27 May 2013)

Everyone has their own opinons about it  personally i would never put a horse in rollkur/hyperflexion. it's cruel and i don't think it looks pretty of makes the horse work better. i can only see cons not pros 


 when you say : 

with all our dressage horses we work them using Hyperflexion (not the really extreme stuff, but so that they are behind the vertical with their heads low and in) we don't make them touch their chests with their noses or anything, but we do get them quite far back.


how far is quite far back ? as far as i'm aware if there behind the vertical it is rollkur/hyperflexion. i could be wrong so feel free to correct me


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## LEC (27 May 2013)

Gotta love school holidays!


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## blackhor2e (27 May 2013)

Popcorn anyone?


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## showpony (27 May 2013)

Really have no time for Anyone whom " makes " there horse stay in the hyperflexion position. Disgusting.


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## Wheels (27 May 2013)

This is a wind up right?


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## Alaadin (27 May 2013)

No it's horrendous! A horse would not choose to go naturally in 'hyperflexion' therefore you are forcing your horse to do so. Whether it's in a snaffle bit or not, I know on my loan horse I'd have to do a fair lot of pulling and sawing to get her to 'hyperflex'. It's cruel no matter what bit you do it in.


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## AbFab (27 May 2013)

I have enough trouble getting mine on the vertical, let alone attempting any sort of rollkur! To her, working in a correct outline *is* hyperflexion


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## PolarSkye (27 May 2013)

Trip trap trip trap over the bridge we go . . . 

P


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (27 May 2013)

I don't saw on horses mouths! It's not that hard to do hyper flexion if you make your horse flexible enough! (though some horses just can't do it) it's not a wind up and i don't see why it's so cruel!


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## JFTDWS (27 May 2013)

You shouldn't go around beating people in classes.  It's just not on - sickening violence is never acceptable - the BS rule about how many times you can hit your horse in a round should apply equally to you using it on other competitiors too.


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (27 May 2013)

Alaadin said:



			No it's horrendous! A horse would not choose to go naturally in 'hyperflexion' therefore you are forcing your horse to do so. Whether it's in a snaffle bit or not, I know on my loan horse I'd have to do a fair lot of pulling and sawing to get her to 'hyperflex'. It's cruel no matter what bit you do it in.
		
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No horse would 'naturally' choose to jump over fences, no horse would naturally choose to have a rider on it's back, no horse would naturally choose to go in a flat out gallop over miles for a race, no horse would choose to pull a carriage. I never have to do any sawing! All you have to do is wiggle the reins to get it in that position and then just be constantly giving the horse gentle wiggles to get it to stay there. I have only ever seen one horse object to it and it soon accepted and went softly.


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (27 May 2013)

JFTD said:



			You shouldn't go around beating people in classes.  It's just not on - sickening violence is never acceptable - the BS rule about how many times you can hit your horse in a round should apply equally to you using it on other competitiors too.



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What are you talking about?


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## galaxy (27 May 2013)

This has to be a wind up

but just in case.

OP.  Rollkur/hyperflexion in BANNED BD.  So if you compete you'd better watch out.

It is cruel and is for a reason because it has negative effects on the horse.  You only have to google to find out why, but this is just a starter

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/why_not.php


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## Lolo (27 May 2013)

JFTD said:



			You shouldn't go around beating people in classes.  It's just not on - sickening violence is never acceptable - the BS rule about how many times you can hit your horse in a round should apply equally to you using it on other competitiors too.



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As an aside, I accidentally managed to have half my friends think we had a mad racist uncle. Because they overheard me talking to my mum on the phone about "Reg the Pole basher". Took a bit of explanation that Reg was a horse prone to knocking down fences, not a man prone to racially aggravated attacks


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## Qru (27 May 2013)

Polarskye - just spat wine out my nose lol 

Stupid question really - ofc its THAT bad - its banned in BD for a reason. And continuously "wiggling" the reins to get your horse to hyperflex is forcing and sawing imo


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## JFTDWS (27 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			What are you talking about?
		
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You said in your OP you'd just beaten your little friends around an sj course 

Hey, if you're going to post mental threads about banned practices, the rest of us can wilfully misinterpret your comments for our own entertainment! 


Lolo, that's brilliant   No more pole bashing for Racist Reg, then!


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (27 May 2013)

galaxy said:



			This has to be a wind up

but just in case.

OP.  Rollkur/hyperflexion in BANNED BD.  So if you compete you'd better watch out.

It is cruel and is for a reason because it has negative effects on the horse.  You only have to google to find out why, but this is just a starter

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/why_not.php

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hyperflexion is banned in warm up and during competition, but no one can do anything about it when you are at home. Anky Van Gruvsen uses hyperflexion and look how much she has achieved.


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## PoppyAnderson (27 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			i don't see why it's so cruel!
		
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Simply telling you it's cruel isn't going to make you change your approach but what I would suggest is you read up on it, listen to the opinion of people you respect and trust and watch lots of videos and good riders in action (you may already be doing all these things?). In short, educate yourself and then make an informed decision. If you then decide to continue as you are, you will at least have taken a considered approach as to your way of schooling and will be more certain that you're doing the best thing by your horse/s.


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (27 May 2013)

JFTD said:



			You said in your OP you'd just beaten your little friends around an sj course 

Hey, if you're going to post mental threads about banned practices, the rest of us can wilfully misinterpret your comments for our own entertainment! 


Lolo, that's brilliant   No more pole bashing for Racist Reg, then!
		
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i meant that i had come in at a higher placing in the competition than them (i came second and they were unplaced/lower placed)


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## JFTDWS (27 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			i meant that i had come in at a higher placing in the competition than them (i came second and they were unplaced/lower placed)
		
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Don't be so dull!  If you're going to troll, troll well


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## willtowin (27 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			i meant that i had come in at a higher placing in the competition than them (i came second and they were unplaced/lower placed)
		
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Think she understood, OP, she was being facetious 

Would never personally hyperflex a horse, or let the kids do it. Even if this horse happened to be an acrobat with plenty of physio. You can't have it in a 'happy' contact if you're behind the vertical. 
Think about it this way - let's say you're in a dressage test, you're cantering a 20m circle and it says give and re-take rein over X. The judges will be looking for the horse to stay in the same outline as it was before. This is because the horse, who is hopefully 'on' the vertical, is in a comfortable position, there is no need for it to shove its head up, as it was never uncomfortable. If you had the horse behind the vertical, and you gave the rein, it would immediately come out from that position. Even if you think your horses are happy in hyperflexion, I'm sure, given half a chance by you giving the reins, that it would release itself from that position.

But that's just my opinion


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (27 May 2013)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Simply telling you it's cruel isn't going to make you change your approach but what I would suggest is you read up on it, listen to the opinion of people you respect and trust and watch lots of videos and good riders in action (you may already be doing all these things?). In short, educate yourself and then make an informed decision. If you then decide to continue as you are, you will at least have taken a considered approach as to your way of schooling and will be more certain that you're doing the best thing by your horse/s.
		
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thank you for being the first person to not immediately jump to conclusions! believe it or not, i do not agree with making a horse touch its chest with its nose while foaming at the mouth and struggling to breathe, i do work "behind the vertical" though and the horses do not feel or look like they are at all in pain. i do not agree with other things such as rapping, extensive use of the whip and i am a keep supporter of natural horsemanship (eg- join up, clicker training ,using reward rather than punishment, bitless bridles,bareback ect) x


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## Rollin (27 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			No horse would 'naturally' choose to jump over fences, no horse would naturally choose to have a rider on it's back, no horse would naturally choose to go in a flat out gallop over miles for a race, no horse would choose to pull a carriage. I never have to do any sawing! All you have to do is wiggle the reins to get it in that position and then just be constantly giving the horse gentle wiggles to get it to stay there. I have only ever seen one horse object to it and it soon accepted and went softly.
		
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I cannot agree that a horse would not naturally choose to jump.  My three year old Shagya filly, turned loose in the school, with one single jump, will jump it again and again from both directions.

My 34 year old driving horse loves to jump, again if I put him in the school with a single jump and ask him to jump he will do just that, no whip, no lunge.

I purchased a 3 year old Cleveland Bay filly sold to make 15.1hh.  I did not have room for her at home so she was kept at a local stud.  The owner's dogs scared her one day so she TROTTED up to the metal gate about 1.2metres and popped it with effortless ease.  She could have hooned round the field.  He was speechless.


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (27 May 2013)

willtowin said:



			Think she understood, OP, she was being facetious 

Would never personally hyperflex a horse, or let the kids do it. Even if this horse happened to be an acrobat with plenty of physio. You can't have it in a 'happy' contact if you're behind the vertical. 
Think about it this way - let's say you're in a dressage test, you're cantering a 20m circle and it says give and re-take rein over X. The judges will be looking for the horse to stay in the same outline as it was before. This is because the horse, who is hopefully 'on' the vertical, is in a comfortable position, there is no need for it to shove its head up, as it was never uncomfortable. If you had the horse behind the vertical, and you gave the rein, it would immediately come out from that position. Even if you think your horses are happy in hyperflexion, I'm sure, given half a chance by you giving the reins, that it would release itself from that position.

But that's just my opinion 

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you can actually make a horse go in the hyperflexion position using a carrot! (try it) hyperflexion is not allowed in BD so we dont use it during competition so your point doesnt really matter (sorry)x


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## galaxy (27 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			Anky Van Gruvsen uses hyperflexion and look how much she has achieved.
		
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oh, so that makes it alright then....  (rolls eyes)

Ask yourself WHY it would be banned from public view if it was harmless???


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (27 May 2013)

Rollin said:



			I cannot agree that a horse would not naturally choose to jump.  My three year old Shagya filly, turned loose in the school, with one single jump, will jump it again and again from both directions.

My 34 year old driving horse loves to jump, again if I put him in the school with a single jump and ask him to jump he will do just that, no whip, no lunge.

I purchased a 3 year old Cleveland Bay filly sold to make 15.1hh.  I did not have room for her at home so she was kept at a local stud.  The owner's dogs scared her one day so she TROTTED up to the metal gate about 1.2metres and popped it with effortless ease.  She could have hooned round the field.  He was speechless.
		
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 ok, so maybe some horses choose to jump, but some horses also choose to hyperflex:    

http://www.horsehero.com/resource/2...food-in-my-view-that-says-it-all-.250.212.jpg


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## Qru (27 May 2013)

Hyperflexing for an instant whilst standing still to receive a treat is one thing. Holding his/herself in that position whilst working (walk/trot/canter) is entirely different and most probably incredibly uncomfortable for said horse


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## willtowin (27 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			you can actually make a horse go in the hyperflexion position using a carrot! (try it) hyperflexion is not allowed in BD so we dont use it during competition so your point doesnt really matter (sorry)x
		
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Yes, for a second - that's not 15 minutes of being held into place though. And again, I was hypothetically speaking - I wasn't suggesting you do that for a test. I was trying to send home the fact that the reason a horse shouldn't move in that situation is because it should be COMFORTABLE in the contact that it's in. If the horse is unhappy, it will move. Conclusion: having your horse in a rollkur position is uncomfortable. Hope that I'm clearer this time...


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## galaxy (27 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			ok, so maybe some horses choose to jump, but some horses also choose to hyperflex:    

http://www.horsehero.com/resource/2...food-in-my-view-that-says-it-all-.250.212.jpg

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That's a momentary position.  Not being held for a period of time.  The later is what is banned and causes damage


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## sandi_84 (27 May 2013)

We've already had a visit from this particular troll in TR 

Remember, every time you feed one a kitten dies!


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## willtowin (27 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			ok, so maybe some horses choose to jump, but some horses also choose to hyperflex:    

http://www.horsehero.com/resource/2...food-in-my-view-that-says-it-all-.250.212.jpg

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Umm, have you read the caption of that picture?
'MK demonstrates Rollkur which he didn't even want to do for the carrot and he lives for his food in my view that says it all'
It's in URL of the link........


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (27 May 2013)

willtowin said:



			Umm, have you read the caption of that picture?
'MK demonstrates Rollkur which he didn't even want to do for the carrot and he lives for his food in my view that says it all'
It's in URL of the link........
		
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what this horse is doing is WAY to far behind the vertical, i would never ride a horse like that!!


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## Goldenstar (27 May 2013)

sandi_84 said:



			We've already had a visit from this particular troll in TR 

Remember, every time you feed one a kitten dies! 

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OMG I did not know about the kitterns why didnt someone tell me months ago.


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## sandi_84 (27 May 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			OMG I did not know about the kitterns why didnt someone tell me months ago.
		
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Ha ha! I only learnt about this phenomenon-anonnonnon from reading it on someone's sig... can't remember who's it was now though


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## starryeyed (27 May 2013)

willtowin said:



			Umm, have you read the caption of that picture?
'MK demonstrates Rollkur which he didn't even want to do for the carrot and he lives for his food in my view that says it all'
It's in URL of the link........
		
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well spotted


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## shortstuff99 (27 May 2013)

Just as point I believe Rolkur is banned but hyperflexion is permitted in dr warmup for 15 mins max or is that low deep round? BUT I don't agree with any form of hyperflexion as it can be damaging to a horse. However are you meaning low deep round which can be beneficial?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (27 May 2013)




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## Lady Supreme (27 May 2013)

JFTD said:



			You shouldn't go around beating people in classes.  It's just not on - sickening violence is never acceptable - the BS rule about how many times you can hit your horse in a round should apply equally to you using it on other competitiors too.



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Hahaha.Just my type of humour ;-)


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## FreyaB (27 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			ok, so maybe some horses choose to jump, but some horses also choose to hyperflex:    

http://www.horsehero.com/resource/2...food-in-my-view-that-says-it-all-.250.212.jpg

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You do know the horse is doing that to reach some food? My horse would do exactly the same for a carrot! :/


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## nikkimariet (27 May 2013)

Lolo said:



			As an aside, I accidentally managed to have half my friends think we had a mad racist uncle. Because they overheard me talking to my mum on the phone about "Reg the Pole basher". Took a bit of explanation that Reg was a horse prone to knocking down fences, not a man prone to racially aggravated attacks 

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HAHAHA!!!


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## Hoof_Prints (27 May 2013)

Always struggled to see the point in rollkur   
I warm up by long and low stretches, loosening the muscles, and allowing blood to flow to the tissues. I hate it when mine goes behind the vertical as he just looses his rhythm and 'forward floaty-ness' as I call it 

I spoke to a girl at a show once who had just bought a warmblood who'd been trained in Rollkur, he had learnt to tuck his nose in to his chest whenever bit contact was applied and she had been schooling for months to get him out of it! He had a very tense back and muscle damage so was having physio to help.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (27 May 2013)

Without seeing OP ride, troll or not, it's such an over used and much mis-used term.....when does LDR become rollkur, when does a stretch become LDR?

Depending on the audience, you could say that all of the following are too deep, too btv, too low and indeed all of them have received that flack, but I personally wouldn't call them rollkur, others have...


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## Goldenstar (27 May 2013)

Non of those photos show hyderflexion IMO.


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## Qru (27 May 2013)

horsetalk.co.nz/2013/05/06/hyperflexion-neck-failure-olympic-dimension/?fb_action_ids=10200972586739049&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_ref=.UYcpyE53lvs.send&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%7B%2210200972586739049%22%3A512082752174761%7D&action_type_map=%7B%2210200972586739049%22%3A%22og.likes%22%7D&action_ref_map=%7B%2210200972586739049%22%3A%22.UYcpyE53lvs.send%22%7D#axzz2SWOyV4ou

Interesting reading if anyone can be bothered - explaining how Hyperflexing influences the different gaits in a negative fashion.


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## hnmisty (27 May 2013)

Sorry, still laughing at the whole "horses wouldn't jump of their own accord". Yeah, tell that to my neighbour's horse when he jumped a 7' high, 8' wide hedge for the hell of it. 

Rollkur is disgusting. It just makes me think of stress positions you can place people in...and I'm pretty sure use of them constitutes torture.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (27 May 2013)

Golden star I quite agree but HAVE had people who think they know more than they actually do, whisper behind my back that I hyper flex horses!!! My point being, you and I don't think this is hypereflexion, but some do and until OP provides pics of her version, we can't or shouldn't jump all over her, she might only be doing t he same as me?


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## Pigeon (27 May 2013)

Does hyper-flexion disengage the neck? I think I might have accidentally done it to mine today on a hack, it didn't take any sort of force, we had a fairly loose rein, and lots of leg, I was trying to encourage him to stretch down. He suddenly became weirdly passive and curled under, I jumped off because it was such a strange sensation, I thought he'd got his tongue over the bit. He definitely wasn't happy about it!!


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## Wheels (27 May 2013)

Well PS your horse is over bent in those photos but in your pics you have a loose rein which is totally different IMHO than forced rollkur 

The op should post up pics of themselves performing hyperflexion, that is the only way i could believe this thread is not a hoax


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## slumdog (27 May 2013)

Well the only time mine does any type of LDR is when he's about to be a git. We do a good giraffe though?


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

galaxy said:



			oh, so that makes it alright then....  (rolls eyes)

Ask yourself WHY it would be banned from public view if it was harmless???
		
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i bet half the people on this forum go hunting yet that is banned and it is cruel and disgusting much worse than hyperflexion


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

Wheels said:



			Well PS your horse is over bent in those photos but in your pics you have a loose rein which is totally different IMHO than forced rollkur 

The op should post up pics of themselves performing hyperflexion, that is the only way i could believe this thread is not a hoax
		
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i don't have any pictures on my computer, and im not riding today but ill take some tomorrow and post them up.


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Without seeing OP ride, troll or not, it's such an over used and much mis-used term.....when does LDR become rollkur, when does a stretch become LDR?

Depending on the audience, you could say that all of the following are too deep, too btv, too low and indeed all of them have received that flack, but I personally wouldn't call them rollkur, others have...






































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if people had read my OP properly, they would have hopefully got the idea that this is what i mean and i work the horses like this for 5- 15 minutes MAXIMUM.


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

look at totilas, the BEST dressage horse of all time IS TRAINED WITH HYPERFLEXION!!!


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

i rarely ever do any lower than this


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## Four Seasons (28 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			look at totilas, the BEST dressage horse of all time IS TRAINED WITH HYPERFLEXION!!!
		
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Correction: WAS the best dressage horse. Now that is Valegro.


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

Four Seasons said:



			Correction: WAS the best dressage horse. Now that is Valegro.

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that doesnt make sense, its like saying 'frankel WAS the best racehose' no, he IS


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## showpony (28 May 2013)

Op you need to grow up a bit.  You are trying to start an argument with anyone who disagrees with you or choose to make very juvenile comments.  You asked for advice, people have given it,  take it on the chin.


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## Jenni_ (28 May 2013)

LDR is beneficial to stretch the back and bum. I use it.

Hyperflexion/RK is NOT.

You can feel it yourself. Sit/ stand and pull your chin right into your neck without stretching the back of your neck down- uncomfortable and rigid. Stretch your neck down and then bring your chin onto your chest- you can feel the muscles from your back to your bum stretching.


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## willtowin (28 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			look at totilas, the BEST dressage horse of all time IS TRAINED WITH HYPERFLEXION!!!
		
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Wait... Isn't hyperflexion what ruined him...?


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2013)

How do you know that?


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2013)

OP, if you are talking about a level of work such as PS is demonstrating in her photos, what ARE you on about? That's not hyperflexion. That's not even particularly extreme LDR. Plus what is with the waggling hand business? Have you read any of the work by people who actually use hyperflexion as a training tool? (For that matter, have many people in this discussion?) I'm not advocating it but you think you'd learn a bit about the history and theory of a practice you are promoting (or condemning, for that matter).


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (28 May 2013)

what an odd child you seem to be OP..

Hyperflexion can actually cause an almost 'kissing spines' situation in the 2-4 vertebra in the neck as the tissue and ligaments start to tear and the vertebrae work and rub against each other, bony changes occur and it is paaaaaainful. But nooooo Anky does it so it must be fine! 

I trained with an olympic showjumper at one point and yes he got results but i would much rather have to plod on a hack for the rest of my life than use his tactics and training to get to the top...just because it works, doesn't mean it's right. 

I'm choosing to ignore the fact that you think that hunting is worse than hyperflexion as it just shows more of your complete ignorance. 

I think you probably need to do some reading up around the sport and inform and educate yourself a little better as the people around you obviously aren't going to teach you correctly.


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## Four Seasons (28 May 2013)

Valegro is the best, trained correctly and get the same scores as Totilas, even set a new world record. Totilas has sunk to the bottom of the sea and I don't think we'll be hearing much of him anymore.

You're a strange one, arguing most of the time, like a little child not getting it's way.


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (28 May 2013)

Four Seasons said:



			Valegro is the best, trained correctly and get the same scores as Totilas, even set a new world record. Totilas has sunk to the bottom of the sea and I don't think we'll be hearing much of him anymore
		
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I agree! It's a shame about Totilas as he appeared to be so naturally talented.


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## galaxy (28 May 2013)

Hunting in the form done today is not banned....

Anyway if you are only doing what PS is doing than that is NOT hyperflexion, just going a bit over bent which is not cruel or harmful so there's no need for you to keep arguing for rolkur because you don't use it anyway!

Still not convinced this thread is genuine.


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2013)

Doesn't really matter if it's genuine though, it's an interesting discussion. 

I'm curious to see the supporting studies for hyperflexion causing kissing spines. (Other than GH's work.) I'm not saying it does or it doesn't, and I can completely understand the reasoning, just curious to see the science.

I think it's good to question what we do with horses, to examine other practices and observe the effects. I do think, however, we also have to turn the spotlight on our own commonly held beliefs as well, not just blindly believe whomever wins ribbons or yells the loudest.


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			look at totilas, the BEST dressage horse of all time IS TRAINED WITH HYPERFLEXION!!!
		
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Sadly no longer competing.  And was actually a much more attractive horse to watch prior to the later training methods to watch on him.


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## SpottedCat (28 May 2013)

amymay said:



			Sadly no longer competing.  And was actually a much more attractive horse to watch prior to the later training methods to watch on him.
		
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You know Edward Gal uses Rollkur and used it on Totilas, right?


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## spookypony (28 May 2013)

Not going to comment on the RK/HF aspects because it's been said, but thought I'd throw my oar in about the "world record" bit: it always strikes me as meaningless talking about records in a discipline where marks are awarded with a great deal of subjectivity. Even in sports where the result is measured in absolutes (as in, how many cm tall the obstacle is), comparison of records over time is problematic in many disciplines, due to evolving technology of the equipment/different surfaces, etc., which to me suggests that it's hard to compare the actual athletic achievement unless you're comparing the relative performance of two athletes over a range of competitions, preferably ones where both athletes competed at the same competition.

In a subjectively-scored discipline such as dressage, we know that priorities and fashions change and judging criteria are adjusted, as is the weighting of different elements in a test. To speak of "world records" in such a context is meaningless.


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## Goldenstar (28 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Doesn't really matter if it's genuine though, it's an interesting discussion. 

I'm curious to see the supporting studies for hyperflexion causing kissing spines. (Other than GH's work.) I'm not saying it does or it doesn't, and I can completely understand the reasoning, just curious to see the science.

I think it's good to question what we do with horses, to examine other practices and observe the effects. I do think, however, we also have to turn the spotlight on our own commonly held beliefs as well, not just blindly believe whomever wins ribbons or yells the loudest.
		
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I think it will be very difficult to prove rollkur causes KS , many many horses get KS and most of them will never have had any trainning useing this method.
There are older horses with very high mileage doing top level dressage who everyone know are trained using this method.
You do need to question everything that's how you learn and develop the systems you use a few years ago I was a clinic with a high level trainer there where about six of us in the school and I was riding a difficult project who was backed at ten having been driven before hand .
The trainer had me working very LDR and someone asked is that rollkur .
The trainer paused and said not really then asked if I minded if he got me to work the horse into the rollkur postions he took us through the system briefly of course but at no time did it stress the horse it was not forceful and I had normal contact throughout , however bred for driving this horse had conformation that makes it physically very easy to go into that position my OH ID for instance would find it very difficult and unpleasant .
It was a thought provoking session it's easy to get sucked in to the hype on both sides of these debates any form of training  system can be unpleasant for the horse if applied unsympathetically .


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			You know Edward Gal uses Rollkur and used it on Totilas, right?
		
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Yep.  I wasn't referring to Edward Gal.


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## dieseldog (28 May 2013)

amymay said:



			Yep.  I wasn't referring to Edward Gal.
		
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Who were you referring to?

My theory on KS and things like PSD is that they have always been around, and it is also in leisure horses, but it was never diagnosed in the past.  I think it is not just that our demands on the horse have increased, it is that the diagnosing skills and knowledge of the things like KS has increased and therefore more horses now have it, when probably they always had it.

And with leisure horses that are just hacked in straight lines and on uneven terrain it is really hard to spot these very subtle nuances in gait that can be the first clue to something like PSD.


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## Goldenstar (28 May 2013)

dieseldog said:



			Who were you referring to?
.
		
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I think Amymay was saying the horse was happy and confident when trained in the system he was used to and understood .
He certainly did not look confident in the system used after he was sold.


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## dieseldog (28 May 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			I think Amymay was saying the horse was happy and confident when trained in the system he was used to and understood .
He certainly did not look confident in the system used after he was sold.
		
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So rolkur used by one person is OK, but not by another?


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## galaxy (28 May 2013)

I read it that amymay was referring to the footage of the horse in young horse classes before he went to Edward Gal....


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## Amymay (28 May 2013)

galaxy said:



			I read it that amymay was referring to the footage of the horse in young horse classes before he went to Edward Gal....
		
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Yes, I was, although to be honest I'm not sure what Jiska van den Akker's training methods were.


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## willtowin (28 May 2013)

TuscanBunnyGirl said:



 what an odd child you seem to be OP..

I trained with an olympic showjumper at one point and yes he got results but i would much rather have to plod on a hack for the rest of my life than use his tactics and training to get to the top...just because it works, doesn't mean it's right.
		
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Haha - these two points exactly. OP you asked for our opinions - if you can't take the heat, get out of the spotlight so to say - we can't help it if you don't like our opinions.

And to the second point - this is exactly true. I'm sure that rapping would make a horse more careful. But is it right - NO. It's cruel! And the horse will lose its confidence, and worry - so it won't be happy/comfortable/everything I said in my previous posts. In the same way that you can win by cheating - sure you can. But that doesn't make it right. And before you kick up a fuss, OP, I did not accuse you of cheating. I was drawing parallels.


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## Goldenstar (28 May 2013)

dieseldog said:



			So rolkur used by one person is OK, but not by another?
		
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Did I say that ? no I did not . I have given no opinion on rollkur as a training method, or if was used on Totilas as a young horse because I don't know.


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2013)

Re rapping, a very prominent sj trainer discussed and demonstrated it in a public clinic recently, making the point that if someone is using such methods without understanding they will almost certainly result in disaster but that skilled horsemen do use them successfully. This is not to say they SHOULD or that you have to agree, but to say that it always destructive or intended as abuse is simply not true. Also, I don't think you can pick a horse it's been used on out of the line up just by looking. 

Again, NOT defending, just saying it's really easy to make these blanket judgements and possibly ignore practices that are just as suspect but don't look so obvious. 

Btw, in the discussion of cheating, anyone using any kind of calmer is TECHNICALLY cheating. We also have no idea if there are long term repercussions from using them as the work has never been done. . .


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## Goldenstar (28 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Re rapping, a very prominent sj trainer discussed and demonstrated it in a public clinic recently, making the point that if someone is using such methods without understanding they will almost certainly result in disaster but that skilled horsemen do use them successfully. This is not to say they SHOULD or that you have to agree, but to say that it always destructive or intended as abuse is simply not true. Also, I don't think you can pick a horse it's been used on out of the line up just by looking. 

Again, NOT defending, just saying it's really easy to make these blanket judgements and possibly ignore practices that are just as suspect but don't look so obvious. 

Btw, in the discussion of cheating, anyone using any kind of calmer is TECHNICALLY cheating. We also have no idea if there are long term repercussions from using them as the work has never been done. . .

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On the calmer that's an interesting grey area , using say valerian is cheating as it is a sedative but giving magnesium oxide based products because  horses are often short of magnesium in there diets if working and hard and getting most of their food from grazing a lot is a much more difficult one.
Some horses are considerably calmed by mag ox.


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## little_flea (28 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Re rapping, a very prominent sj trainer discussed and demonstrated it in a public clinic recently, making the point that if someone is using such methods without understanding they will almost certainly result in disaster but that skilled horsemen do use them successfully. This is not to say they SHOULD or that you have to agree, but to say that it always destructive or intended as abuse is simply not true. Also, I don't think you can pick a horse it's been used on out of the line up just by looking. 

Again, NOT defending, just saying it's really easy to make these blanket judgements and possibly ignore practices that are just as suspect but don't look so obvious. 

Btw, in the discussion of cheating, anyone using any kind of calmer is TECHNICALLY cheating. We also have no idea if there are long term repercussions from using them as the work has never been done. . .

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Absolutely agree.


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## PolarSkye (28 May 2013)

Setting aside the rather inflammatory style of the OP, this is an interesting discussion - just to add a further dimension - what if you have a horse who does this (assumes a Rollkur-type position) by itself?  Kal does this - curls right behind the bit even with no rein contact and going forward - it is clearly an evasion and sometimes we worry that he will knee himself in the jaw!  He is never pinned in and is always ridden leg/seat into hand (or an "open" contact).  An onlooker catching a glance could conclude that we practice Rollkur - which couldn't be further from the truth.  

I suppose the point I am trying to make is that what you see isn't necessarily what you think you see . . . and every horse is different.  

Oh and if anyone has any advice on how to encourage Kal not to do this, that would be great .

P


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## little_flea (28 May 2013)

The definition difference between low, deep & round and "rollkur" is a VERY grey area indeed. Nose in front of vertical can be stiff, wooden, on the forehand, and damaging to the horse just as well as a soft, flexible, supple, happy, bendy horse can work in a very beneficial way behind the vertical. For the sake of steering this away from dressage for a moment - look at some of the world leading show jumpers - Ludger Beerbaums horses definitely don't work in a classical, nose on the vertical fashion, but look at the power, suppleness and flexibility... It is too difficult to be categorical about these things.

Also - as far as I know, Totilas was the best dressage horse in the world when rollkur-ed by Edward Gal, and it all went wrong when he was sold to germany where he was initially trained with the more traditional German scales of training. (There is a very good video somewhere called "The Taming of Totilas" which discusses all this). Not saying right or wrong - just that it isn't in my opinion possible to categorically state one or the other. And of course not everyone has the hands and riding skills of Edward Gal - but equally I don't prefer seeing a stiff, hollow horse with a rider bouncing right on its spine just because it is the more preferred way of going in a Prelim dressage test...


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## Pinkvboots (28 May 2013)

I have a warmblood mare with bony changes in the poll she cannot stand any poll pressure at all she will go nuts, physio thinks this could have been caused by hyperflexion performed at a very young age, when I first got her she would be very sensitive in the school and often get quite distressed, out hacking she is a totally different horse, which makes me think most of her discomfort stems from being in a menage being schooled, she trusts me now but she can be very sensitive and has to be ridden with real care, this horse just screams out that someone has ridden her really harsh and has caused pain and she has not forgotten.

So I for one do not agree with hyperflexion or rollkur, my horses are ridden in a classical way nothing is forced and they are both happy to be ridden in an outline without force or bullying.


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## slumdog (28 May 2013)

Adding on the discussion, my youngster doesn't really go in an outline and any pressure on his mouth makes him look like a giraffe. I don't understand how Rollkur is achieved without artifical aids? The only way I could get his head to his chest would be to tie it there using draw/side reins. I've never read up about Rollkur so I don't know how they manage to make them do it, is it through a strong bit and sawing hands?


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

slumdog said:



			Adding on the discussion, my youngster doesn't really go in an outline and any pressure on his mouth makes him look like a giraffe. I don't understand how Rollkur is achieved without artifical aids? The only way I could get his head to his chest would be to tie it there using draw/side reins. I've never read up about Rollkur so I don't know how they manage to make them do it, is it through a strong bit and sawing hands?
		
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it can be done with a snaffle and we never use draw reins or side reins other than lungine. the only training aids we EVER use while riding is the john whitaker training reins and a market harborough(i prefer these as they are fixed so are controlled by the horse, not the riders hands.)


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

Pinkvboots said:



			I have a warmblood mare with bony changes in the poll she cannot stand any poll pressure at all she will go nuts, physio thinks this could have been caused by hyperflexion performed at a very young age, when I first got her she would be very sensitive in the school and often get quite distressed, out hacking she is a totally different horse, which makes me think most of her discomfort stems from being in a menage being schooled, she trusts me now but she can be very sensitive and has to be ridden with real care, this horse just screams out that someone has ridden her really harsh and has caused pain and she has not forgotten.

So I for one do not agree with hyperflexion or rollkur, my horses are ridden in a classical way nothing is forced and they are both happy to be ridden in an outline without force or bullying.
		
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a horse isn't really 'finished' dressage wise (can walk,trot,canter nicely, do flying change and able to collect and lengthen its stride) until it is around five, and this is not what i would class as a 'youngster'. we never would work a horse using this method whether we have bred it ourselves or bought it already started until it is at this age. some horses we buy that  were started late don't have this method until they are 7 years old which is definitely not a youngster! it all depends on what stage of training the horse is at but we would never do it to break in a horse.


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Re rapping, a very prominent sj trainer discussed and demonstrated it in a public clinic recently, making the point that if someone is using such methods without understanding they will almost certainly result in disaster but that skilled horsemen do use them successfully. This is not to say they SHOULD or that you have to agree, but to say that it always destructive or intended as abuse is simply not true. Also, I don't think you can pick a horse it's been used on out of the line up just by looking. 

Again, NOT defending, just saying it's really easy to make these blanket judgements and possibly ignore practices that are just as suspect but don't look so obvious. 

Btw, in the discussion of cheating, anyone using any kind of calmer is TECHNICALLY cheating. We also have no idea if there are long term repercussions from using them as the work has never been done. . .

Click to expand...

Rapping is stupid and it just puts horses off jumping. I would never use it! IT DOESN'T WORK!! anyone that thinks a horse would work better by having a pole painfully rapped against its legs shouldn't be around horses! But hyperflexion does have benefits!


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## YasandCrystal (28 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			it can be done with a snaffle and we never use draw reins or side reins other than lungine. the only training aids we EVER use while riding is the john whitaker training reins and a market harborough(i prefer these as they are fixed so are controlled by the horse, not the riders hands.)
		
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Not really wanting to be drawn into this debate, but I have to comment. A market harborough is NOT a soft bit of kit and of course it is the action of the riders hand that draw the horse's head inward and downward. The martingale part clips onto the reins at an adjustable tightness - how can you say the rider doesn't control this?!!


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			I think it will be very difficult to prove rollkur causes KS , many many horses get KS and most of them will never have had any trainning useing this method.
There are older horses with very high mileage doing top level dressage who everyone know are trained using this method.
You do need to question everything that's how you learn and develop the systems you use a few years ago I was a clinic with a high level trainer there where about six of us in the school and I was riding a difficult project who was backed at ten having been driven before hand .
The trainer had me working very LDR and someone asked is that rollkur .
The trainer paused and said not really then asked if I minded if he got me to work the horse into the rollkur postions he took us through the system briefly of course but at no time did it stress the horse it was not forceful and I had normal contact throughout , however bred for driving this horse had conformation that makes it physically very easy to go into that position my OH ID for instance would find it very difficult and unpleasant .
It was a thought provoking session it's easy to get sucked in to the hype on both sides of these debates any form of training  system can be unpleasant for the horse if applied unsympathetically .
		
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we've NEVER had any problems as far as injuries or health problems are concerned.w We warm up our horses first so that their muscles are warm and flexible


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

YasandCrystal said:



			Not really wanting to be drawn into this debate, but I have to comment. A market harborough is NOT a soft bit of kit and of course it is the action of the riders hand that draw the horse's head inward and downward. The martingale part clips onto the reins at an adjustable tightness - how can you say the rider doesn't control this?!!
		
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at least its better than draw reins which can be VERY harsh and worse than a market harborough!


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			On the calmer that's an interesting grey area , using say valerian is cheating as it is a sedative but giving magnesium oxide based products because  horses are often short of magnesium in there diets if working and hard and getting most of their food from grazing a lot is a much more difficult one.
Some horses are considerably calmed by mag ox.
		
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But anything MARKETED as a calmer - vs, say, a nutritional supplement - is TECHNICALLY breaking the rules because it is the INTENT that's the issue, not the result.  If you rub something on your horse's legs because you think it will sensitize them it's immaterial whether it works or not.

I am obviously playing devil's advocate a bit but the discussion is valid.  Anyone who says, "I want to give my horse x because it gets fizzy at competitions and I can't sort that with work," is looking to change the horse's innate mentality by chemical means.  Whether it can be tested for or not, or whether or not there are tests to prove it works, is technically immaterial.

This is why the herbal companies etc do not do tests on their products. (Well, this and the vast expense.) It is not actually in their best interests to prove they work because then they will be banned.


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2013)

Pinkvboots said:



			I have a warmblood mare with bony changes in the poll she cannot stand any poll pressure at all she will go nuts, physio thinks this could have been caused by hyperflexion performed at a very young age, when I first got her she would be very sensitive in the school and often get quite distressed, out hacking she is a totally different horse, which makes me think most of her discomfort stems from being in a menage being schooled, she trusts me now but she can be very sensitive and has to be ridden with real care, this horse just screams out that someone has ridden her really harsh and has caused pain and she has not forgotten.

So I for one do not agree with hyperflexion or rollkur, my horses are ridden in a classical way nothing is forced and they are both happy to be ridden in an outline without force or bullying.
		
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Or it COULD have been caused by having her head tied down, or a very strong leverage bit, or by damage from pulling back (a very common source of neck injuries) or even by a fall.  And her tension in the school COULD have been caused by someone trying to make her go "in a frame" after she was already injured and she made that association, whereas out hacking they just let her be.  I had one that used to freak in the school because he had melanomas in his throat and when the rider tried to pull his nose in he panicked.  Hacked or jumped on a looser rein, he'd go all day.


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## YasandCrystal (28 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			at least its better than draw reins which can be VERY harsh and worse than a market harborough!
		
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That's true, but draw reins used in the correct hands and as a second rein can have a place in ridden rehab training imo. I tried out a pony in a market harborough years ago for my daughter and the owner had actually even knotted the branches from the martingale to make it more severe and then tried to tell me that the pony really didn't need it 

I think the problem with many of these 'gadgets' is that they become items of torture in the hands of the inexperienced or those who just do not understand why they are using them.  It's like showing a stunt trick on the the TV - the warning is REALLY do not try this at home - these are professionals!!

I attended a show at the weekend and I witnessed the worst case of abuse riding I have seen in public ever. The horse's mouth was repeatedly sawn at by a strong male rider in the warmup area (this was as a punishment AFTER his test) and with the horse's tongue hanging out of it's mouth and clearly distressed he continued to canter that poor horse into the ground round and round for at least 10 minutes in the heat. I don't know how I bit my tongue, but I registered a complaint today it upset me so much. Some people just don't get it and they shouldn't be near a horse.


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## little_flea (28 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			Rapping is stupid and it just puts horses off jumping. I would never use it! IT DOESN'T WORK!! anyone that thinks a horse would work better by having a pole painfully rapped against its legs shouldn't be around horses! But hyperflexion does have benefits!
		
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"Rapping" in the way you understand it is likely to be painful and cruel, but there are many different ways of skillfully "touching up" a horse - I don't do it myself because I have nowhere near enough knowledge to do so and no need for it, and nor does anyone I am affiliated with - and no need for it for me, I only jump small classes for fun - but it would be very naive to think that no successful show jumping professionals get involved with these practises. And there are many ways that are less cruel and more effective than simply bashing a horses legs with a pole. 

Again, a grey area indeed, and very very difficult to categorically state what is and isn't cruel. I think we all agree that bashing a horses legs with a heavy pole or sensitising the skin is cruel - but what about something as simple as building a grid specifically designed to practise something the horse finds difficult - it is likely to hit the fence a few times, and the reason that most jumping horses get their legs out of the way is because it does't feel nice to have poles down! 

In short - the best way to never do anything that may be considered cruel is to not participate in any equestrian sports.


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## little_flea (28 May 2013)

YasandCrystal said:



			I think the problem with many of these 'gadgets' is that they become items of torture in the hands of the inexperienced or those who just do not understand why they are using them.  It's like showing a stunt trick on the the TV - the warning is REALLY do not try this at home - these are professionals!!
		
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Absolutely this for a multitude of issues.


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			Rapping is stupid and it just puts horses off jumping. I would never use it! IT DOESN'T WORK!! anyone that thinks a horse would work better by having a pole painfully rapped against its legs shouldn't be around horses! But hyperflexion does have benefits!
		
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Really?  George Morris (and others) says it does.  USED APPROPRIATELY, not by throwing poles at horse's legs.  And I bet he knows a bit more about getting horses jumping well than you do.  If you've never used it how do you know it doesn't work?   As little flea says, why is that worse than setting something to give a horse a rub?  

Again, not advocating it and I've more often seen it done incorrectly and for the wrong reasons than by someone who really knows what they are up to and gets a good result.  I don't do it, I've never done it, and it's not for me but then I ride young horses mostly, and jump them over small jumps.  But it your response makes me laugh.   Pot, meet kettle.


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## little_flea (28 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Really?  George Morris (and others) says it does.  USED APPROPRIATELY  And I bet he knows a bit more about getting horses jumping well than you do.  If you've never used it how do you know it doesn't work? 

Again, not advocating it and I've more often seen it done incorrectly and for the wrong reasons than by someone who really knows what they are up to and gets a good result.  But it your response makes me laugh.   Pot, meet kettle. 

Click to expand...

Quite...


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			we've NEVER had any problems as far as injuries or health problems are concerned.w We warm up our horses first so that their muscles are warm and flexible
		
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Okay, now I know you're lying.   Even the very best horsemen, people who have produced many horses that have lasted at the top, have horses that get injured, especially if they are playing at the margins of the game.


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Okay, now I know you're lying.   Even the very best horsemen, people who have produced many horses that have lasted at the top, have horses that get injured, especially if they are playing at the margins of the game.
		
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Im only 13 so its not like i've seen that many horses!


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2013)

Ah. 

I'm a LOT older than 13.


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## slumdog (28 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			Im only 13 so its not like i've seen that many horses!
		
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In fairness, regardless of your views (that I'm sure will change as you see more of the world) you're quite articulate for a 13 year old.


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Really?  George Morris (and others) says it does.  USED APPROPRIATELY, not by throwing poles at horse's legs.  And I bet he knows a bit more about getting horses jumping well than you do.  If you've never used it how do you know it doesn't work?   As little flea says, why is that worse than setting something to give a horse a rub?  

Again, not advocating it and I've more often seen it done incorrectly and for the wrong reasons than by someone who really knows what they are up to and gets a good result.  I don't do it, I've never done it, and it's not for me but then I ride young horses mostly, and jump them over small jumps.  But it your response makes me laugh.   Pot, meet kettle. 

Click to expand...

i had a jumping coach that said it would be beneficial to my old 13.3hh connemara Cloud that used to have a fit when she touched a pole as  apparantly rapping  would help her 'get used to it' (looking back i cant believe i listened to her advice but i was only nine!) Cloud was so stressed out after five minutes of it that when i took her to the jump she refused, spun round,reared up and almost threw me off, my instructor got on her and started smacking her head with a whip she tried to get her to jump it but she ended up rearing up and falling into the arena fence.this all happened when she was 7 years old and she was a bit of late maturer! it took almost two months to get her to go anywhere near an arena (after that lesson we got a new coach) a further three months to get her to settle in the arena and start schooling and almost a year to get her to jump a small cross pole. She never quite recovered and we decided to breed a foal from her when she was nine (that was two years ago). Thankfully she settled after that and now she competes with my ten year old brother. but she will still never go in the arena where it happened.... horses have the memory of an elephant!


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Ah. 

I'm a LOT older than 13. 

Click to expand...

 obviously we have had horses that have been injured (tendons, bumps, bruises and leg strains) but all those have been because of knocks in the field, a stumble etc. but (as far as i know) it hasn't been because of the way we train our horses


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			i had a jumping coach that said it would be beneficial to my old 13.3hh connemara Cloud that used to have a fit when she touched a pole as  apparantly rapping  would help her 'get used to it' (looking back i cant believe i listened to her advice but i was only nine!) Cloud was so stressed out after five minutes of it that when i took her to the jump she refused, spun round,reared up and almost threw me off, my instructor got on her and started smacking her head with a whip she tried to get her to jump it but she ended up rearing up and falling into the arena fence.this all happened when she was 7 years old and she was a bit of late maturer! it took almost two months to get her to go anywhere near an arena (after that lesson we got a new coach) a further three months to get her to settle in the arena and start schooling and almost a year to get her to jump a small cross pole. She never quite recovered and we decided to breed a foal from her when she was nine (that was two years ago). Thankfully she settled after that and now she competes with my ten year old brother. but she will still never go in the arena where it happened.... horses have the memory of an elephant!
		
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Um, that's not rapping, that's REALLY bad riding.


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



 obviously we have had horses that have been injured (tendons, bumps, bruises and leg strains) but all those have been because of knocks in the field, a stumble etc. but (as far as i know) it hasn't been because of the way we train our horses

Click to expand...

Nothing with arthritis then?


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Nothing with arthritis then?  

Click to expand...

not sure.... ill ask my mum.


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Um, that's not rapping, that's REALLY bad riding.
		
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 you're criticising a nine year olds riding!!


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## kerilli (28 May 2013)

The only SJ trainer I have even known who used rapping (very very carefully, in very special cases) had trained with Paul Schockemohle. Have you ever heard of him, OP? 
Like most things with horses, it has to be done VERY judiciously with perfect timing. 



ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			a horse isn't really 'finished' dressage wise (can walk,trot,canter nicely, do flying change and able to collect and lengthen its stride) until it is around five, and this is not what i would class as a 'youngster'. we never would work a horse using this method whether we have bred it ourselves or bought it already started until it is at this age. some horses we buy that  were started late don't have this method until they are 7 years old which is definitely not a youngster! it all depends on what stage of training the horse is at but we would never do it to break in a horse.
		
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A horse is 'finished' dressage wise, and no longer a 'youngster', at 'around five'. *boggles*

Really? Really really? Is that supposed to be a joke?

I think that if you keep riding horses one day you will look back at how much you thought you knew at this age, and how little you actually know, and squirm. A lot. 

Do you know anything about a horse building up strength as it is worked, and learns to take more weight behind? This takes years, even in truly expert hands. For instance a, say, 12 yr old GP showjumper's canter would be VERY different to the same horse's canter at, say, 6 years old. Do you see that? 

As for the 'none of our horses have ever been injured by our training methods' stance -  really? Do you keep track of them into their twenties to see if they are still sound and working? Because that's one way of being pretty sure that your system did not damage THAT particular horse, anyway...


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## galaxy (28 May 2013)

OP, haven't we actually established that you don't actually use Rollkur and you just ride them a bit overbent and deep?  When shown photos of actual rollkur you said you DIDNT do that and it was more like the photos that were shown which noone has any issue with?  

Not sure why you are still defending something which you yourself said you wouldn't do???


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

galaxy said:



			OP, haven't we actually established that you don't actually use Rollkur and you just ride them a bit overbent and deep?  When shown photos of actual rollkur you said you DIDNT do that and it was more like the photos that were shown which noone has any issue with?  

Not sure why you are still defending something which you yourself said you wouldn't do???
		
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we ride a bit deeper than the photos posted, but not that much.


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			you're criticising a nine year olds riding!!

Click to expand...

Your instructor was NINE?!?!?!  That might have been part of the problem . .


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2013)

galaxy said:



			OP, haven't we actually established that you don't actually use Rollkur and you just ride them a bit overbent and deep?  When shown photos of actual rollkur you said you DIDNT do that and it was more like the photos that were shown which noone has any issue with?  

Not sure why you are still defending something which you yourself said you wouldn't do???
		
Click to expand...

Because she's bored.   It's half term.

Anyway, OP, galaxy has a point.


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## CaleruxShearer (28 May 2013)

OP, at some point, we learn that it's best to listen to, and respect the views of others who are generally older and have seen more of the world than ourselves! I cringe when I both look at videos and pictures of me riding when I was 13 and think about how much I thought I knew at that age! In fact I'm embarrassed when I look at videos of me riding this time last year when I was working on a top event yard training with some of the best people in the country and I thought I was starting to get the hang of this riding business! This isn't because they were bad trainers or it was a bad experience at all, in fact quite the opposite, I learnt LOADS, it's just with horses your always learning something new! And I'm sure the same thing will happen at the end of this season and so on...we are all learning all the time!


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Your instructor was NINE?!?!?!  That might have been part of the problem . . 



Click to expand...

i was nine! im not sure how old the instructor was but she was german (im english but i live in germany ) and around 30 years old! i thought you were talking about my riding, not the instructors


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## CaleruxShearer (28 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Your instructor was NINE?!?!?!  That might have been part of the problem . . 



Click to expand...

 I laughed..


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2013)

YOU didn't hit your pony on the head to make it jump.  

Also, the situation you describe is not one in which any person who is in favour of rapping would use it, let alone anyone else might see it as justified if unnecessary, so it's really not representative, you see?  If I stabbed you with a kitchen knife that wouldn't mean that's what it kitchen knives are for or that they can't be useful in other circumstances. 

Ah, you're in Germany.  That also explains things a bit.  Go ask your coach tomorrow if he/she rides in rolkur.


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

CaleruxShearer said:



			OP, at some point, we learn that it's best to listen to, and respect the views of others who are generally older and have seen more of the world than ourselves! I cringe when I both look at videos and pictures of me riding when I was 13 and think about how much I thought I knew at that age! In fact I'm embarrassed when I look at videos of me riding this time last year when I was working on a top event yard training with some of the best people in the country and I thought I was starting to get the hang of this riding business! This isn't because they were bad trainers or it was a bad experience at all, in fact quite the opposite, I learnt LOADS, it's just with horses your always learning something new! And I'm sure the same thing will happen at the end of this season and so on...we are all learning all the time!
		
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you have a pointbut my mum has competed at top level in dressage and eventing, and she is the one that teaches me most of the time (my instructor gives me lessons once or twice a week) and my dad has trained top show horses and dressage horses and they are the people that introduced me to the methods. i know what you mean though, i look at videos of me and cloud (the pony that was ruined through rapping) competing and it really makes me cringe at my riding!


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			YOU didn't hit your pony on the head to make it jump.  

Also, the situation you describe is not one in which any person who is in favour of rapping would use it, let alone anyone else might see it as justified if unnecessary, so it's really not representative, you see?  If I stabbed you with a kitchen knife that wouldn't mean that's what it kitchen knives are for or that they can't be useful in other circumstances. 

Ah, you're in Germany.  That also explains things a bit.  Go ask your coach tomorrow if he/she rides in rollkur. 

Click to expand...

i'm not sure about my old one (the one that did the rapping) as she only taught me showjumping, but i think that my current coach does, i don't see her ride much, but she once did a bit of schooling on one of my mums dressage horses and i'm pretty sure she meant for it to go as deep as it did, which was quite deep! although i think she uses hyperflexion, my coach is really kind to horses, she often makes me ride bareback or with a head collar instead of a bridle if i'm using my hands to much or not using my legs enough!


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

i guess some experts may be able to justify rapping, but i wont ever do it myself.


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## Dusty85 (28 May 2013)

I'm still waiting to see these pictures....


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

Dusty85 said:



			I'm still waiting to see these pictures....
		
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i told you! i don't have any pictures on my computer and i didn't ride today but ill have them up tomorrow i promise!


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## Donnie Darco (28 May 2013)

WTF??!! 

That is all


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (28 May 2013)

Donnie Darco said:



			WTF??!! 

That is all 

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sorry?


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## Dusty85 (28 May 2013)

Hmmm you didn't actually tell me but I'll wait until tomorrow. 

Apologies if this is past your bed time


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## Twiggy14 (28 May 2013)

I think the key word here, OP, is 'opinions'. 
You have your opinions, such as rapping and hunting is worst than Rollkur/Hyperflexion...and you expect us to respect your opinion without going in all guns blazing, right? We, meaning most people replying to this thread, also have our own opinions. Yet we accept yours, however peculiar they may seem to us, and are trying to have a mature 'debate' of facts. Rollkur/Hyperflexion is actually an interesting topic, but at the moment we cannot really talk about it seriously because you keep coming in with excuses, saying our opinion is wrong.
I think if you maybe listened, this post would be a lot different. 
That is what I've gotten from reading this, anyway. Again, that is my opinion. 

And please don't use the 'I'm only 13' card. I myself am 14, and still manage to be mature about things. 
And even now I've looked back at things I've said and done even last year and thought 'wait what!?'


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## daffy44 (29 May 2013)

I dont usually comment on things like this, but when someone says a horse is "finished" dressagewise at the age of five, and is no longer a youngster at this age....... Wow, what a frightening perspective!


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## hnmisty (29 May 2013)

Daffy44...agree entirely. Although I'd say what a frightening, ignorant perspective.


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## kerilli (29 May 2013)

hnmisty said:



			Daffy44...agree entirely. Although I'd say what a frightening, ignorant perspective.
		
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ditto, I raised exactly this point on the previous page. Unfortunately the OP chose to ignore it completely.
Incredibly ignorant.


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## TarrSteps (29 May 2013)

And a child.  I thought I knew a lot at 13, too! Heck, I wasn't much older when I started to teach! Terrifying thought!

She'll learn, just like everyone else.


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## Goldenstar (29 May 2013)

I have to say at thirteen I was busy keeping my eyes and ears open and my mouth shut  I would never have been brave enough to post somewhere like this ( if it had existed ) so admire OP for that.
We where all young once cut her some slack.


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## naid pollyanna (29 May 2013)

i love watching all these negative comments about this! when i let my horse loose in either the arena or field (bear in the mind this is a retrained racehorse that is now a show hack not a dressage horse nor showjumper anything but has done abit or everything!) she goes straight into trot her neck so curved she is in fact overbent with her chin nearly on her chest and powers through her back...there is no lines on her what so ever so this must be natural as she is never ridden with rollkur etc. my last pony, a Connemara had serious problems coming onto the it we had back teeth everything checked got the softest warmest bit out there and went to our trainer and he suggested use hyperflexion. at no point was she 'held in' that position as it isn't a locking movement. he simply told me to roll my wrist round to the inside which moved the bit got the ponies attention and near as damn it every time she lowered her head(not behind the vertical) and had slight bend to the inside after two or three strides he told me to release. not cruelty nor torture my horse was never unhappy or in discomfort!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (29 May 2013)

naid pollyanna said:



			i love watching all these negative comments about this! when i let my horse loose in either the arena or field (bear in the mind this is a retrained racehorse that is now a show hack not a dressage horse nor showjumper anything but has done abit or everything!) she goes straight into trot her neck so curved she is in fact overbent with her chin nearly on her chest and powers through her back...there is no lines on her what so ever so this must be natural as she is never ridden with rollkur etc. my last pony, a Connemara had serious problems coming onto the it we had back teeth everything checked got the softest warmest bit out there and went to our trainer and he suggested use hyperflexion. at no point was she 'held in' that position as it isn't a locking movement. he simply told me to roll my wrist round to the inside which moved the bit got the ponies attention and near as damn it every time she lowered her head(not behind the vertical) and had slight bend to the inside after two or three strides he told me to release. not cruelty nor torture my horse was never unhappy or in discomfort!

Click to expand...

if the pony wasnt BTV, how were you using hyperflexion?!


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## ester (29 May 2013)

if she wasn't btv how is that hyperflexion 

lol snap PS!


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## naid pollyanna (29 May 2013)

because it was using the same motion and technique. i admit obviously whilst using it there were times she was btv but overall her way of going after the two or three strides of it she wasnt! sorry if i caused confusion! she was only ever in hyerflexion for the most four trot strides then she was straight on the vertical not above or behind, i cant explain things at all! haha.


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## galaxy (29 May 2013)

naid pollyanna said:



			because it was using the same motion and technique. i admit maybe at some points she might of been. but my instructor taught me proprly how to perform hyperflexion and the aids i needed to use/give na dit never once set her too deep even though asking for it. you can give the aids without it being taken to far as my instructor said numerous times to me, he was a dutch dressage rider!
		
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Are you sure you aren't talking about flexion rather than hyperflexion?  Flexion is a technique all riders probably use, whereas hyperflexion is the act of putting a horses nose on it's chest and riding with it there.


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## naid pollyanna (29 May 2013)

galaxy said:



			Are you sure you aren't talking about flexion rather than hyperflexion?  Flexion is a technique all riders probably use, whereas hyperflexion is the act of putting a horses nose on it's chest and riding with it there.
		
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no when we first got her we used flexion but she was so set on the bit and unwilling we used hyperflexion. i watched my instructor ride numerous times using it on his horses and yes there were behind the vertical and very deep but not nose on chest, not at all just flexion.


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## galaxy (29 May 2013)

naid pollyanna said:



			he simply told me to roll my wrist round to the inside which moved the bit got the ponies attention and near as damn it every time she lowered her head(not behind the vertical) and had slight bend to the inside after two or three strides he told me to release.
		
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this just doesn't sound like hyperflexion to me it sounds like flexion.  You bent your pony to the inside for a few strides and then released.....


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (29 May 2013)

agree, its not hyperflexion if it isnt extreme and maintained and what you were doing sounds like neither.


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (29 May 2013)

daffy44 said:



			I don't usually comment on things like this, but when someone says a horse is "finished" dressage wise at the age of five, and is no longer a youngster at this age....... Wow, what a frightening perspective!
		
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i meant that a horse is ready to compete and is no longer a 'baby'. if you hadn't noticed, i put in brackets that i meant that most horses have their walk, trot and canter sorted out, can lengthen and shorten their stride and can do flying changes. and i also said that horses can be a lot older when they are at this stage, but this is the stage that we usually start working them 'deep and round' and it at this stage we start schooling them in a double bridle (or rugby pelham) and start competing them


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (29 May 2013)

kerilli said:



			ditto, I raised exactly this point on the previous page. Unfortunately the OP chose to ignore it completely.
Incredibly ignorant.
		
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i dont know what time you posted this, but i didn't ignore you! last night i had to go and rug up my horses and then i went to bed and i didn't even have enough time for breakfast this morning as i had to get up at 5.45am to get ready for competing today! i've only just got back!

   how am i ignorant?


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## willtowin (29 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			i meant that a horse is ready to compete and is no longer a 'baby'. if you hadn't noticed, i put in brackets that i meant that most horses have their walk, trot and canter sorted out, can lengthen and shorten their stride and can do flying changes. and i also said that horses can be a lot older when they are at this stage, but this is the stage that we usually start working them 'deep and round' and it at this stage we start schooling them in a double bridle (or rugby pelham) and start competing them
		
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Your 5yos can do flying changes?!? Ours still have to come back to trot!
Did anyone else see in Horse and Hound, either last week or the week before, the article on Jock Paget - he said that even at 15 he thought Clifton Promise was still maturing


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## daffy44 (29 May 2013)

kerilli said:



			ditto, I raised exactly this point on the previous page. Unfortunately the OP chose to ignore it completely.
Incredibly ignorant.
		
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I saw that Kerilli, i totally agree with you, and i couldnt believe the OP ignored you!


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## little_flea (29 May 2013)

I don't think OP is talking about 5-year olds doing one time tempis - but 5-year old SJ age classes are 1.20m plus so you really want them to be able to change canter lead if required to jump round a track like that.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (29 May 2013)

little_flea said:



			I don't think OP is talking about 5-year olds doing one time tempis - but 5-year old SJ age classes are 1.20m plus so you really want them to be able to change canter lead if required to jump round a track like that.
		
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exactly!

and most dressage horses will have at least started single changes. TBH i think its quite *behind* if a 5yo hasnt started changes,even if still green and not on the aid.

CS started changes at the end of his 4yo year.


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## willtowin (29 May 2013)

Fair enough, mine are eventers! Changes are next on the list... They can do them but not on demand!


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## daffy44 (29 May 2013)

This is why i dont usually post on these sort of threads!  The word the OP used in respect to 5yr olds was "finished" if a dressage horse is finished it has had an awful lot more training as far as i'm concerned.  I also believe a 5yr old is still young, especially if it is a warmblood, quite apart from scientific evidence of growth plate development etc, there is a reason the FEI put mimium ages on specific classes, to prevent horses being damaged by a level of competing inappropiate to their age.  Young horse classes in all disciplines are for 4, 5 and 6yr old horses, so 5 is definately still young in my opinion.  I dont have a problem with a 5yr old dressage horse having done a little work on changes if that horse is ready, but i dont think it should be trained automatically at that age, it depends very much on the individual horses strength, balance, etc.  Show jumping changes are very different to a dressage horses changes, if a young show jumper changes a little late behind, or if it is swung about a bit to achieve the change it doesnt matter, the same can not be said for the change of a dressage horse.
My current 5yr old has a clean, easy change on my aid and has had from the first time of asking, but my current Small Tour horse didnt start changes til she was at the end of her 6yr old year, all horses progress at different rates, and in my opinion, if you want to get the best from a horse, you have to respect each horses individual time frame.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (29 May 2013)

perhaps people could have asked for a cleared explanation of what she meant by finished rather than jumping down her throat?

for me a 5yo is on the brink of when baby work becomes slightly more grown up in the way of going and the questions asked and perhaps that is what OP meant?

agree re treating each horse as an individual but generally most dressage riders aim to have a change mostly established as a 5yo. My PSG horse started them as a 4yo and if done in a fun, easy, happy way i dont think they pressure them at all.

from the way the OP has spoken, it sounds like she has a yard of nice/quality horses, so probably the *sort* to be able to do a change at 4/5yo without it being an issue.

this reads like an absolute witch hunt, you use hyperflexion-we shall strike you down, oh no actually you dont but you DO do changes on youngsters-we will strike you down anyway!


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## TableDancer (29 May 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			perhaps people could have asked for a cleared explanation of what she meant by finished rather than jumping down her throat?

for me a 5yo is on the brink of when baby work becomes slightly more grown up in the way of going and the questions asked and perhaps that is what OP meant?

agree re treating each horse as an individual but generally most dressage riders aim to have a change mostly established as a 5yo. My PSG horse started them as a 4yo and if done in a fun, easy, happy way i dont think they pressure them at all.

from the way the OP has spoken, it sounds like she has a yard of nice/quality horses, so probably the *sort* to be able to do a change at 4/5yo without it being an issue.

this reads like an absolute witch hunt, you use hyperflexion-we shall strike you down, oh no actually you dont but you DO do changes on youngsters-we will strike you down anyway!
		
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^^^ I pretty much agree with this


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## hnmisty (29 May 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			this reads like an absolute witch hunt, you use hyperflexion-we shall strike you down, oh no actually you dont but you DO do changes on youngsters-we will strike you down anyway!
		
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Given the OP doesn't appear to know what rollkur actually is, and in a separate thread has described bitless bridles as being "kind" because there is no bit, pardon me if then describing a 5y/o as "finished" (without clarification that she doesn't mean "ended", which is the usual definition of the word), makes alarm bells ring in my mind.

Yes, things can be misinterpreted, but that's why you try to be as clear as possible. "They've finished their basic education at 5" would be more in line with what the OP apparently meant.


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (29 May 2013)

hnmisty said:



			Given the OP doesn't appear to know what rollkur actually is, and in a separate thread has described bitless bridles as being "kind" because there is no bit, pardon me if then describing a 5y/o as "finished" (without clarification that she doesn't mean "ended", which is the usual definition of the word), makes alarm bells ring in my mind.

Yes, things can be misinterpreted, but that's why you try to be as clear as possible. "They've finished their basic education at 5" would be more in line with what the OP apparently meant.
		
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actually, a bitless bridle IS kind (though a hackamore can be EXTREMELY severe) when i say bitless bridle, i mean the dr cook, which is pretty kind though , like any training aid/ bit, can be severe in the wrong hands.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (29 May 2013)

hnmisty said:



			Given the OP doesn't appear to know what rollkur actually is, and in a separate thread has described bitless bridles as being "kind" because there is no bit, pardon me if then describing a 5y/o as "finished" (without clarification that she doesn't mean "ended", which is the usual definition of the word), makes alarm bells ring in my mind.

Yes, things can be misinterpreted, but that's why you try to be as clear as possible. "They've finished their basic education at 5" would be more in line with what the OP apparently meant.
		
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gosh, have you never written anything that wasnt perfectly clear to every single person reading it?


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## hnmisty (29 May 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			gosh, have you never written anything that wasnt perfectly clear to every single person reading it?
		
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Of course I have. But I don't think I make quite as much of a habit of it as OP does!


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (29 May 2013)

hnmisty said:



			Of course I have. But I don't think I make quite as much of a habit of it as OP does! 

Click to expand...

well i'm sorry that english isn't my strong point! nobodys perfect!


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## sez1 (29 May 2013)

Have you got any pics yet?  x


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## PolarSkye (29 May 2013)

sez1 said:



			Have you got any pics yet?  x
		
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Just stop.

P


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (29 May 2013)

i've got three pictures on my phone, can anyone give me some advice on how to get them onto the forum?


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## Kikke (29 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			hyperflexion is banned in warm up and during competition, but no one can do anything about it when you are at home. Anky Van Gruvsen uses hyperflexion and look how much she has achieved.
		
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My 12 year old niece trains with anky and her 14.1 goes "lovely" in rollkur and my sister helps her to make sure the lovely pony goes deep enough.......... 
But then Anky also teaches my niece to lean back so the pony takes more weight from behind......... 
What to say.

NO ROLLKUR poor horses!!!!


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## sez1 (29 May 2013)

I've never worked out how to put pictures from my phone onto here  
Anyway, I don't agree with rollkur but LDR is a different thing and I think it can be very useful. Some horses do carry their heads behind the vertical anyway


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## slumdog (29 May 2013)

If you can email off your phone you can email me and I'll put them on for you


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## TarrSteps (29 May 2013)

You can't put photos directly from a phone, you have to either put them on your hard drive or a photo sharing site. 

The easiest way is to put them on your computer then go to your User CP (left of your screen) and click on 'Albums' then follow directions to create an album and download the photos you want to put on. Then you can post the link or just tell people to look in your album.

You can do it from photobucket etc but if you do make sure you have your privacy settings locked down. If you put the photos on here then people can't follow them back to see your other photos, which they can do on file sharing sites.


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## TarrSteps (29 May 2013)

And don't be emailing them. No offence, but sharing photos of minors that aren't your own is not really a good idea, even with the best intentions.


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## TarrSteps (29 May 2013)

See? I may have been being childish last night on this thread but I'm sb actual card carrying grown up.


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## PolarSkye (29 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			See? I may have been being childish last night on this thread but I'm sb actual card carrying grown up. 

Click to expand...

I won't tell anyone .

P


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## The Fuzzy Furry (29 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			See? I may have been being childish last night on this thread but I'm sb actual card carrying grown up. 

Click to expand...

Thats so good to know


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## kerilli (29 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			i dont know what time you posted this, but i didn't ignore you! last night i had to go and rug up my horses and then i went to bed and i didn't even have enough time for breakfast this morning as i had to get up at 5.45am to get ready for competing today! i've only just got back!

   how am i ignorant?
		
Click to expand...

I raised it at 6.30pm, and you replied to the post after mine, but maybe you just didn't see it. I was responding to:




ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			a horse isn't really 'finished' dressage wise (can walk,trot,canter nicely, do flying change and able to collect and lengthen its stride) until it is around five, and this is not what i would class as a 'youngster'. we never would work a horse using this method whether we have bred it ourselves or bought it already started until it is at this age. some horses we buy that were started late don't have this method until they are 7 years old which is definitely not a youngster! it all depends on what stage of training the horse is at but we would never do it to break in a horse.
		
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I guess I misunderstood you... but I personally DO still class a 5 yr old as a youngster, relatively speaking. 
But then, I take my horses very slowly, probably far too slowly for a lot of people.  

It's not a witch-hunt, as far as I can see.

Ignorant? For roundly condemning practices which you know little about, I guess. Rapping, for instance. You seem to draw a direct line from some awful trainer who thought your mare needed to learn to feel what poles were like hitting her legs (WTF??? 'allergic to wood' horses are prized for good reasons!) and then bashed her around the head. That's awful, but naff all to do with rapping, surely?

I would never ever rap a horse myself, but I had a v v experienced trainer who did it twice, ever (in about 5 years of training me on various horses) and both times the results of doing it ONCE lasted for about 6 months...  that is a lot better than a lot of training methods imho.


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (29 May 2013)

kerilli said:



			I raised it at 6.30pm, and you replied to the post after mine, but maybe you just didn't see it. I was responding to:





I guess I misunderstood you... but I personally DO still class a 5 yr old as a youngster, relatively speaking. 
But then, I take my horses very slowly, probably far too slowly for a lot of people.  

It's not a witch-hunt, as far as I can see.

Ignorant? For roundly condemning practices which you know little about, I guess. Rapping, for instance. You seem to draw a direct line from some awful trainer who thought your mare needed to learn to feel what poles were like hitting her legs (WTF??? 'allergic to wood' horses are prized for good reasons!) and then bashed her around the head. That's awful, but naff all to do with rapping, surely?

I would never ever rap a horse myself, but I had a v v experienced trainer who did it twice, ever (in about 5 years of training me on various horses) and both times the results of doing it ONCE lasted for about 6 months...  that is a lot better than a lot of training methods imho.
		
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oh sorry  there were loads of posts last night so i guess i cant have seen it, but i really didnt ignore you!!


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## TableDancer (29 May 2013)

Kerilli is right, it isn't a witch hunt - however, OP is very young and, fwiw, I think has debated and argued in an undefensive, honest, slightly ingenous way which I find rather refreshing  So I think we can probably cut her a little slack from time to time about not being very clear in her logic, not expressing herself as clearly as she could and, ok, being plain old wrong some of the time 

I'm with you, OP, about rapping anyway - it crosses the line for me, however venerable and experienced the proponent  Plus, I'd prefer a 13 yo to be anti-rapping until they discovered a good reason to change their mind  than the other way around


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## TarrSteps (29 May 2013)

TableDancer said:



			I'm with you, OP, about rapping anyway - it crosses the line for me, however venerable and experienced the proponent  Plus, I'd prefer a 13 yo to be anti-rapping until they discovered a good reason to change their mind  than the other way around 

Click to expand...

Of course!


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## kerilli (29 May 2013)

ok no worries then.


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## smac (30 May 2013)

What happened to the pictures? I like pretty ponies- inspires me to smarten mine up :O ! Failing that i feel more of CS just to make this thread more colourful. I prefer the threads with pictures.  

Rapping hyperflexion draw reins etc all can go one of two ways. Non are good / ideal but different horses builds shape sizes etc. 

Think part the problem is op is coming with a very blinkered mummy  & daddy method are right and - understandably at 13- has no experience other than her parents. 

How was your competition op? Was it dressage or sj?


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## tallyho! (30 May 2013)

Horsemanship and the equestrian art is dead.


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## TarrSteps (30 May 2013)

I'm not sure you're looking in the right place. . ..


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## tallyho! (30 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			I'm not sure you're looking in the right place. . ..

Click to expand...

Ah...


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (30 May 2013)

smac said:



			Think part the problem is op is coming with a very blinkered mummy  & daddy method are right and - understandably at 13- has no experience other than her parents.
		
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Agree!




tallyho! said:



			Horsemanship and the equestrian art is dead.
		
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unfortunately..also agree


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## Amymay (30 May 2013)

smac said:



			Think part the problem is op is coming with a very blinkered mummy  & daddy method are right and - understandably at 13- has no experience other than her parents.
		
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This poster is not 13.


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## ester (30 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			Im only 13 so its not like i've seen that many horses!
		
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yup they are  well unless they aren't who they say they are..


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## Amymay (30 May 2013)

ester said:



			yup they are  well unless they aren't who they say they are..
		
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I know what they've claimed.....


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## Mickyjoe (30 May 2013)

TableDancer said:



			Kerilli is right, it isn't a witch hunt - however, OP is very young and, fwiw, I think has debated and argued in an undefensive, honest, slightly ingenous way which I find rather refreshing  So I think we can probably cut her a little slack from time to time about not being very clear in her logic, not expressing herself as clearly as she could and, ok, being plain old wrong some of the time 

I'm with you, OP, about rapping anyway - it crosses the line for me, however venerable and experienced the proponent  Plus, I'd prefer a 13 yo to be anti-rapping until they discovered a good reason to change their mind  than the other way around 

Click to expand...

Completely agree. People may not agree with the Op's viewpoint or approach but I think she has debated her points with good humour and maturity that belies her 13 years. 
FWIW I understood immediately what she meant re the 5 yr olds and I think if any more established, respected posters had written the same thing, it would have automatically been taken in that way. 
Because the OP has started out being slightly inflammatory, people seem determined to find something to attack her about. 

And I agree with Tarrsteps re the photos of minors. I don't think pushing a 13 yr old to put her photo on a public forum is necessarily the best idea.


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## fburton (30 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			you can actually make a horse go in the hyperflexion position using a carrot! (try it)
		
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I dare say you can, but for how long can you get a horse to hold a hyperflexed position this way?


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (30 May 2013)

amymay said:



			This poster is not 13.
		
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i am 13! how can you say that i'm not if you don't even know me?


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (30 May 2013)

smac said:



			What happened to the pictures? I like pretty ponies- inspires me to smarten mine up :O ! Failing that i feel more of CS just to make this thread more colourful. I prefer the threads with pictures.  

Rapping hyperflexion draw reins etc all can go one of two ways. Non are good / ideal but different horses builds shape sizes etc. 

Think part the problem is op is coming with a very blinkered mummy  & daddy method are right and - understandably at 13- has no experience other than her parents. 

How was your competition op? Was it dressage or sj?
		
Click to expand...

i can't figure out how to get my pictures from my phone to the forum  because my phone is pay as you go and internet costs a fortune  

    my competition was great!!!!! (it was showjumping) Dyn was *1st* at her first show!!! (sooo pleased) and descent had one pole down in the jump off but got such a good timer that she was 3rd!! (it was a fairly small class compared to usual so that might have helped!)


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## Amymay (30 May 2013)

Are you posting from your phone or a computer op??


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (30 May 2013)

amymay said:



			Are you posting from your phone or a computer op??
		
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computer


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## onemoretime (30 May 2013)

LEC said:



			Gotta love school holidays!
		
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 agree!!


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## TarrSteps (30 May 2013)

Originally Posted by tallyho!  
Horsemanship and the equestrian art is dead.
		
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TuscanBunnyGirl said:



			Agree!
unfortunately..also agree 

Click to expand...

On the basis of this thread??  Really?

That will come as a massive shock to, oh, WFP, Andrew Nicholson, Jock Paget, Carl Hester, Luis Álvarez Cervera, George Morris, Klaus Balkenhol, Katie Jerram, Nick Skelton . . . not to mention the countless excellent riders and horsemen who aren't household names.


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## onemoretime (30 May 2013)

daffy44 said:



			I dont usually comment on things like this, but when someone says a horse is "finished" dressagewise at the age of five, and is no longer a youngster at this age....... Wow, what a frightening perspective!
		
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this is the reason I couldn't find a decent 7 or 8 year old that hadn't been messed up and had to go back to buying a 4 year old, who I love by the way.  Far too many horses are ruined by the time they get to 7 years old and reading this post I can see how.


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## tallyho! (30 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			On the basis of this thread??  Really?

That will come as a massive shock to, oh, WFP, Andrew Nicholson, Jock Paget, Carl Hester, Luis Álvarez Cervera, George Morris, Klaus Balkenhol, Katie Jerram, Nick Skelton . . . not to mention the countless excellent riders and horsemen who aren't household names.



Click to expand...

I think she means as in, it is *largely* dead... killed off, or in the process of being killed of by the more "well known" matchy-matchy riders who hog the limelight these days levering in horses necks and leaning back as if they were windsurfing (SUCH a good look.. not) whilst bobbing the head up and down as you were agreeing with Jeremy Vine. That's why I can't stand watching dressage these days.

I mean how many people know the name 'Oliveira'? 

Ollie who??? I mean, if you've heard of him, you MUST be OLD (or you can read).

Just look in the tack shop next time you go in, martingales, gags, cranks, pessoas... all by the rack-full next to the bling and lime green sheepskin.
_*
The lowering of the quarters preliminary to lifting of the forehand???*_ Pah - sod that......... G-Clamp the mouth shut, then, rachet it's chin to it's chest for "roughly" 5 mins and you get a red rosette!!!!!

Do something with your legs/body? They are just there to show off my swanky new Lizard Skin boots.

Aaanyway, soz, went off on a tangent there didn't I.


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## tallyho! (30 May 2013)

daffy44 said:



			I dont usually comment on things like this, but when someone says a horse is "finished" dressagewise at the age of five, and is no longer a youngster at this age....... Wow, what a frightening perspective!
		
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Aaaand THIS is why you don't see horsemanship in the mainstream. People who follow the art have practically just started a horse at 5 (correctly). 

Hyperflexion gets you places  much quicker. It's like racing but on the spot!


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## sez1 (30 May 2013)

Ok, you might not want to post pictures but if you do- http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=426986


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (30 May 2013)

sez1 said:



			Ok, you might not want to post pictures but if you do- http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=426986

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i can't use the internet on my phone (costs a fortune) and the pictures of me riding are on  my phone sorry


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## alainax (30 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			i can't use the internet on my phone (costs a fortune) and the pictures of me riding are on  my phone sorry 

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Simple, transfer the pics from your phone to your pc. You can do this via your phones cable ( for modern phones thats  the same cable you charge it with) or you can do it via bluetooth 

If you cant work hom pm me and ill go through it with you. Getting pics from one device to another, and uploading online is something handy to know 

Edit - or if your just shy, just say!


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (30 May 2013)

alainax said:



			Simple, transfer the pics from your phone to your pc. You can do this via your phones cable ( for modern phones thats  the same cable you charge it with) or you can do it via bluetooth 

If you cant work hom pm me and ill go through it with you. Getting pics from one device to another, and uploading online is something handy to know 

Edit - or if your just shy, just say!
		
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how do i connect my charger to my computer?


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## chels (30 May 2013)

Well, 13 or not, the op sure knows how to get a good debate going!
Very interesting reading I must say.


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## alainax (30 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			how do i connect my charger to my computer?
		
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Which type of phone do you have?


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## ShowjumpingPrincess (30 May 2013)

alainax said:



			Which type of phone do you have?
		
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samsung galaxy ace


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## alainax (30 May 2013)

ShowjumpingPrincess said:



			samsung galaxy ace
		
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Wonderful, grab your charger, should look like this - 







The detach the micro usb to usb connecter from it, like so - 
(pic isnt exact same, but google isnt being helpful on the images  )







Plug the micro usb part into the phone, and the usb part into the pc. Voila. The phone will connect as a mass storage device.


Most modern phones come with this set up, as otherwise they have to provide you with 2 cables. So if you for what ever reason find a phone thats charger cable doesnt come away to connect to usb, then chances are there is another cable to go with the phone


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## bsja007 (30 May 2013)

well isnt this an interesting read, lots of controversy!


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