# Australia Ban Live Exports To Indonesia



## Amymay (31 May 2011)

http://www.news.com.au/national/gov...e-cattle-exports/story-e6frfkw0-1226065999439

Of course the only people whining are those set to loose money.....

Poor creatures.


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## stencilface (31 May 2011)

The live shipping export is just horrendous - as mentioned in the article, exporting sheep to the middle east continues.  Trouble is, cattle as in cloven hooved animals are just not suited to australia - they destroy the lanscape - which is poor enough already, the only reason they can produce that much is because they have that much space.  They would be better farming kangaroos and camels I think! (and then exporting a high quality product on the hook).

There was a story a few years ago of a ship with sheep on and a disease broke out on the ship.  The country they were intended for wouldn't take them, australia wouldn't take them back and the poor animals were out at sea for weeks on end, slowly dying. I think something like a million (could be a wrong number there - but a lot!) sheep ended up dying on board and were then thrown overboard


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## Circe (31 May 2011)

This upset me so much when i heard about it. 
I really hope this ban is continued on these particular slaughter houses. I hope this also sends a message to the rest of the 'industry' that this sort of treatment of animals can not be tolerated. 
Kx


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## JanetGeorge (31 May 2011)

Stencilface said:



			There was a story a few years ago of a ship with sheep on and a disease broke out on the ship.  The country they were intended for wouldn't take them, australia wouldn't take them back and the poor animals were out at sea for weeks on end, slowly dying. I think something like a million (could be a wrong number there - but a lot!) sheep ended up dying on board and were then thrown overboard 

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Very wrong on numbers - no-one knows exactly how many died after Saudi Arabia refused to let them in, but it would have been an absolute maximum of 40,000 ('cos that's about as many as they can jam into one shipment!)

The live export trade from Australia is pretty horrendous - with deaths in transit of cattle increasing over the past few years - less sheep dyding - but only because less re being exported!


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## stencilface (31 May 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			Very wrong on numbers - no-one knows exactly how many died after Saudi Arabia refused to let them in, but it would have been an absolute maximum of 40,000 ('cos that's about as many as they can jam into one shipment!)

The live export trade from Australia is pretty horrendous - with deaths in transit of cattle increasing over the past few years - less sheep dyding - but only because less re being exported!
		
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See, I knew the numbers were wrong!

Even 10 000 sheep would be a massive amount though


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## Spudlet (31 May 2011)

I think this is the case you mean?




			Australia

Australia exports around four million live sheep every year, mostly to the Middle East every year. They may have travelled up to 50 hours by road to get to the sea port. This is followed by a journey of up to three weeks by sea and a further journey by road at the other end. Shockingly, around 40,000 sheep die every year before they reach their destination.
....
When things go wrong

*In 2003 the Cormo Express carried 58,000 sheep from Australia to Saudi Arabia but was not allowed to unload. The sheep remained on board for three months in appalling and deteriorating conditions. Over 5,000 died.*

Fire, delays or sinking of livestock ships result in the suffering and death of large numbers of animals. In December 2009 more than 17,000 cattle and 10,500 sheep were reported drowned when the Danny F II ship transporting them from Uruguay to Syria capsized in a storm off the coast of Tripoli, with the loss of the Captain and several crew.  In March 2010 263 of the several thousand cattle on the Ocean Shearer died, possibly due to the ship being delayed en route from Australia to Egypt.
		
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http://www.ciwf.org.uk/what_we_do/live_transport/main_concerns.aspx

It's unforgiveable - I am not a veggie, I happily eat meat - local whenever I can - but no animal should have to go through this before they end up on our plates.

I want one day to have a smallholding so I can supply my own meat - at least then I can be sure it's had a good life. And I want a short, finite journey limit for animals travelling to slaughter.


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## EAST KENT (31 May 2011)

The whole Australian live export business stinks,it is to their shame it continues.I buy nothing from that source as my own pathetic protest,and was one of many thousands writing letters to the minister responsible in Australia.
   They need to clean up and show some degree of compassion towardss farm stock.Just google "sheep ships" or "mulesing" to see just why it makes me feel ill for those animals.
  Obviously then they think the treatment prior to slaughter in Saudi is just fine..be brave..watch it and see for yourselves.


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## Circe (1 June 2011)

So far only transportation to a couple of abattoirs have been temporairily ceased, ( 11 I think ) as they were mistreating ( tortouring) the animals once they arrived. 
If anyone is interested, WSPA is running a campaign to stop live exports of animal for slaughter. 
Kx


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## EAST KENT (1 June 2011)

Oh ..so the Saudi treatment,where anyone can buy a sheep,stuff it in the boot of the car and "home slaughter" it is ok? Someone needs to wake up and join  the rest of the Western world in humane animal treatment.


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## Circe (1 June 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Oh ..so the Saudi treatment,where anyone can buy a sheep,stuff it in the boot of the car and "home slaughter" it is ok? 

Er ? Did anyone say it was ok?
Kx
		
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## sunshine19 (1 June 2011)

*Quote:

Indonesia reacts

Indonesia's vice minister of agriculture, Bayu Krisnamurthi, has warned against an overreaction to the report in Australia, noting the importance of the live cattle trade to both countries.

"Please respond to the video proportionally," Bayu told reporters before the ban was announced, in comments published in the Jakarta Globe today.*



Words fail me!  

The Four Corners video was beyond horrific, those poor animals having to endure a gruesome painful death.

Australia should hang its head in shame!


Do not watch if easily upset, it is very graphic!

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/special_eds/20110530/cattle/


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## EAST KENT (1 June 2011)

Well obviously if no ban is mentioned in relation to Saudi..and the other is just "tempory" ..then your agriculture minister must think it is?


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## JanetGeorge (1 June 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Oh ..so the Saudi treatment,where anyone can buy a sheep,stuff it in the boot of the car and "home slaughter" it is ok? Someone needs to wake up and join  the rest of the Western world in humane animal treatment.
		
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I don't think we should be criticising the Saudis too much over this - it was the Indonesian slaughterhouses that were found to be appalling.  The Saudis refused entry for sheep with health problems (which obviously got worse when they were stuck on board for weeks.)


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## AndySpooner (1 June 2011)

All live exports for slaughter should be banned, its unfair on the animals, and uneconomic.

No animal of any description should be put through this barbaric trade.


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## EAST KENT (1 June 2011)

Could`nt agree more Andy..but the Australian exports suffer the most.


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## applecart14 (1 June 2011)

amymay said:



http://www.news.com.au/national/gov...e-cattle-exports/story-e6frfkw0-1226065999439

Of course the only people whining are those set to loose money.....

Poor creatures.
		
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Totally despicable behaviour from so called humans that are meant to be intelligent species.


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## JanetGeorge (1 June 2011)

applecart14 said:



			Totally despicable behaviour from so called humans that are meant to be intelligent species.
		
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No - we're talking about Indonesians!  Remember what they did in East Timor?  Remember the 5 Australian and 1 British journalists the Indonesian forces murdered - because the journalists would have exposed some of their dreadful excesses!!  And the lies and cover-ups that followed!  They treat humans worse than WE treat animals - what hope have animals got there!

(And if you're ever tempted to smuggle a few ounces of cannabis with you when you holiday in Bali, don't!  They treat foreign prisoners JUST as badly as they do animals!


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## Saucisson (1 June 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			No - we're talking about Indonesians!  Remember what they did in East Timor?  Remember the 5 Australian and 1 British journalists the Indonesian forces murdered - because the journalists would have exposed some of their dreadful excesses!!  And the lies and cover-ups that followed!  They treat humans worse than WE treat animals - what hope have animals got there!

(And if you're ever tempted to smuggle a few ounces of cannabis with you when you holiday in Bali, don't!  They treat foreign prisoners JUST as badly as they do animals!
		
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Oh JG you are so right again! 

Too short of time to punch in anything more................


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## JackyN (8 June 2011)

OMG.. I could only watch a short bit my eyes are still streaming. 

My niece is a researcher involved with this report and she told me about the graffic scenes she had to watch. I can only be grateful for her and others who have the guts to challenge the government & open up peoples eyes to the horrible things we as so called intelligent higher beings inflict on poor animals.
Cheers Anne for your research and work involved in getting this out in the open and better treatment for animals.


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## tristar (8 June 2011)

i can remember seeing footage of australians shooting wild horses from helecopters, utterly disgraceful, and seeing how they treat the kangaroos, not to mention the abo's.

do they seriously think they have the right to call the indonesians cruel when they are so barbaric themselves, they should put their own house in order first, then ban all live exports, there is no justifiable reason for live export for meat anywhere on this planet.

what infuriates me most is all these things go on and on,  and no governments seem to ever stop it all,  in a way that takes animal welfare forwards, what sort of people are these politiciens what do they really know about the  real world as it is, and where is their courage and concience? or are they simply oblivous to it all, or just plain thick?


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## Serenity087 (8 June 2011)

I'm absolutely fuming!

Has anyone in this thread been to australia?  Lived out there?  Because I have!!!!!

I have mulesed lambs.  And you know what? I was glad to be doing it.  Because finding a yearling ewe who when I touched her, her skin fell off in my hands to reveal a second skin of maggots due to fly strike and her pitiful dying moans because I had nothing to hand I could put her out of her misery with... Dear lord, do you really want to condemn more of these beautiful animals to that?

We lost hundreds in the year I was out there.  I would go home and shower and the stench of death, flystrike and rotting flesh wouldn't leave no matter how hard I scrubbed.  The image of one yearling ewe with maggots crawling out of her eye sockets whilst they ingested her brain (fortunately we were able to euthanise her) is one that I will never forget.

Mulesing is bloody, messy, but the lambs get up and run off.  They were also tagged, vacc'd, drenched and castrated and it was still nothing like flystrike.

As for the ships, I've worked with sheep destined for them but never went to the yards.  The vaccination process for the ships is strict, all ewes are scanned and any pregnant ewes are left behind.  All sheep are sheared so they're carrying minimal weight.  It's not ideal, but believe you me it's nothing like you picture it in your heads!!!!

As for how they treat wildlife... most australian's refuse to eat Kangeroo because it's their national embelam.  

The only thing I'll agree on is their treatment of Aborigionals... And even then I don't think most the users on here have any idea on that situation either!!!


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## EAST KENT (8 June 2011)

We are not all as ignorant as you think;Before you leap in and defend ,how about YOU travel to Saudi in the BOTTOM deck where all the poop and pee ends up.And incidently where at least one lamb was born,with just it`s shoulders showing above the slurry. 
   There are many good Australians just as mortified at this trade as the rest of the world,good friends in fact. What is done there to a breed of sheep basically unsuitable for the extreme climate..i.e. mulesing and now skin tacking..would in UK gain a prosecution.
   Our country is far from perfect,but out and out deliberate cruelty does almost cause a rabid riot here.


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## Serenity087 (8 June 2011)

Merino's were bred in the mediterranean!! How much more suitble for a desert do you want a sheep to be?

They cope remarkably well with the environment. It's the flies that are the killers.

Okay, they were misbred into having more wrinkled skin than is healthy and it's absolutely a priority to breed out these folds!!  But until then they need removing and it doesn't look like the AWB is going to ban mulesing any time soon!

In the UK, leaving the dead bodies of sheep for carrion is illegal.  In australia, collecting up all the corpses across 9,000 acres when you have over 3,000 sheep is impractical.

They're different countries and you cannot compare.

Also, Australian's suffer the same townie versus cocky problems we have in the UK.  Just because you live can live in the same state (that happens to be the size of europe...) as a sheep farmer does NOT mean you know what goes on there!!


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## JanetGeorge (9 June 2011)

tristar said:



			i can remember seeing footage of australians shooting wild horses from helecopters, utterly disgraceful, and seeing how they treat the kangaroos, not to mention the abo's.

do they seriously think they have the right to call the indonesians cruel when they are so barbaric themselves, they should put their own house in order first, then ban all live exports, there is no justifiable reason for live export for meat anywhere on this planet.
		
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And how would YOU suggest brumbies are culled.  We're talking VERY wild feral animals that can run the average stock horse off its legs 3 times over, often in terrain where using off-road vehicles is impossible at the speed brumbies travel.

And if they're not culled, they die of starvation - having destroyed the local environment in the meantime.

And 'roos are shot to control numbers - using high powered rifles.  Unpleasant part of life in the outback - but better than starvation.

The outback of Australia is very harsh indeed - even BIG stations have no mains water, no mains electricity, and certainly no corner shop!

A bit like much of Indonesia - the reason for live export is that a large proportion of the population there - and in other countries too - don't have the luxury of a fridge.  They buy meat fresh killed - and use it in 24 hours before it goes rotten in excessively humid climates,  Meat that has been transported chilled/frozen has to be used even quicker!  Now that's no excuse for inhumane slaughter - but it IS a reason for live export.


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## stencilface (9 June 2011)

Serenity - you do make me laugh 

Yes, I have lived in Australia - that doesn't change the fact the live export should be stopped does it?

They don't eat kangaroos because most don't value it as meat, which is why it is usually used as dog food, they have no problem in shooting their national emblem for that do they?

Aboriginals - yes I know how they treat them, I have worked there


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## ILuvCowparsely (9 June 2011)

I thank god I am a veggie and know my food hasnt come from an animal


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## Alec Swan (9 June 2011)

There are many aspects of the Live Animal Export Trade,  which I don't understand.

Whilst in the report,  it's been stated that in Indonesia the average home doesn't have refrigeration or freezing capabilities,  I fail to see how that can influence the supply,  when slaughter houses sell it fresh,  but would still have chilling capabilities,  themselves.

The cost of transporting live animals,  if worked out at the $ to the kilo rate,  must be astronomic,  when compared with the cost of shipping processed meats.

Would it be so difficult for Australia to supply inspectors at the points of entry,  and at the point of killing?  If the industry,  to Australia,  is that important,  then the cost of the inspectors should be acceptable.

If the Governments on both sides were to sharpen up their acts,  as well as their knives,  I'd have thought that the trade could continue,  but with safe guards,  in place.

Alec.


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## jeeve (9 June 2011)

According to news reports today the trade will continue, it is only suspended. Once they have some safe guards in place it will start again. I can say that the cattle industry were just as dismayed as the general population. But the economy cannot afford for the cancellation of live exports.

It is not something i am in favour of, and I think there has to be more inspection and follow up of these o/s abbatoirs.


Culling
With regards to culling the middle of australia has millions of feral animals including horses, (approx 400 000), donkeys (in excess of a million) camels (500 000), buffalos, goats and they do cull these animals with guns from helicoptors etc.It is necesary. 

Aussies eat pretty much anything and emu, cocodile, kanagaroo, rabbit and goat are pretty readily available. We occasionally have kangaroo - can't say I am mad keen on it myself but I don't eat much meat. (I prefer casseroles where you cannot recognise what it is you are eating or mince sauces.) The only time I had it was when OH told me it was steak.  All my kids have tried all the above animals they are not sqeamish at all. Kangaroo is stocked in local supermarkets for human consumption.


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## Spudlet (9 June 2011)

Ah Serenity. Once again you are here to share the enormous experience that you have on any given subject anyone may care to mention. Thank goodness. A day without one of your lectures is like a day without sunshine. Had it occurred to you that you might not be alone in having experience in some of these matters?


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## Festive_Felicitations (9 June 2011)

I live in Aus and work for the Dept of Ag and this is MHO... 

If you can access it (and have a very strong stomach) watch the 4 Corners report (www.abc.net.au/iview then search or link above) I managed about a third.
Within the industry there has been objections to the live export for a long time, but this report has finally recieved enough public exposure (it was being discucced in the hairdressers on Wed in Sydney!) to finally generate the political pressure to get some action which will hopefully result in some positive results.
Should it happen? No. not nessecary Aus has the facilities to process the meat and would create some much needed jobs in the 'top end' Slaughter houses nationally have been going out of buisness due to lack of demand. Often whole towns relied on the abottoir to keep it alive.  The 'fresh' argumant shouldn't hold any sway as given its proximity beef could be slaughtered, packaged and shipped in a week - about the same time it takes to get to the shelf of your local shop (not entierly sure about all butchers).  We have approvaed 'halal' abbotoirs and procedures.  Will it casue fincial loss? Yes, _temporarily_.  Unfortunately all the 'loud' voices are the corporate stations (there are exceptions).  The family owned busnisses (well only some to be fair) are and have been looking for alternative markets/options for a while.

The other aspect to consider is that part of the problem is general lack of education in Indonesia. A lot of the people working in the abbottoirs in Indonesia will have been beated and by our standards, mistreated all their lives. So while their actions shock us it is not so far from the 'norm' for them. I'm not excusing their behavoir (which is frowned on by their own church) just trying to paint the big picture.  So the best solution is like for so many problems is EDUCATION. SO if you really want to help the cattle write a letter to the embassy expressing your outrage at the treatment and your support for either stopping the live trade entierly (ideal but unlikely) or any program educating the locals. Better planned than the last....

Musling - as Serenity described is better than fly-strike. However there are lines of quality Merinos that don't have the excess skin (1/2 of NZ's sheep), and in Aus.  The quality of wool is not affected and people are going to have to let go of the 'bloodline they've used for generations' and make the swap.  The govenment will never enforce it but the fashion market is pushing the change slowly.

Yes we should eat kangaroo and camel. Camel is easy to farm, Kangaroo is harder as they haven't been domesticated for the last 1000 yrs and even if hand reared still get stressed around humans very easily. Stress releases chemicals into the blood/meat making it taste unpleasant. It also has to be cooked carefully or ends up tough as dried out old leather boots (found out the hard way).

On the shooting of the horses - it is less stressful for them (scientific evidence to back up) than coralling them and shipping to a slaughter house or seperating into small groups and being shot by a licensed killer.  They are naturally fligt animals The shooters in the choppers have to under go special training and are some of the best shots in the country. There is also a time limit on how long they can persue a group.  The horses also learn pretty damm quick that if they hide under bushes the choopers can't find them!!! 

I'm not going to get into the whole Aborigine debarcle, becasue it is a total failure on both sides.

This is totally my opinion.
Overall Australia, while it would like to claim otherwise, is a shocking country if you look at its human rights, animal cruelty, and environmental record.  Narrow minded and incredibly racist for all its multi-cultural claims and as a nation ignorant.  
Having said that there are a lot of good things about living here, it has some incredibly beautiful and unique landscapes and wildlife, and there are lots of lovely people.


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## EAST KENT (9 June 2011)

Serenity..have always thought myself that how a country or people treat their animals..from chooks to steers..reflects on the degree of their humanity.This trade ,at last,seems to have caught the eye of the worldwide public,good!
  You know  ,I breed dogs..thin furred ones,now if I decided to do this in Russia ..and gave no winter heating,obviously they would die,being unsuited to the climate.Something in my peanut brain would tell me not to do it again.Most humans learn by experience and have a degree of compassion.
  Hacking lumps of skin off sheep because their design does`nt quite suit your helicopter size flies really is`nt an option to a sensible person.I suppose that to just apply the fly preventitive most countries use is too much trouble?? 
   Perhaps the simple rules of good husbandry and humanity are a tad lacking somewhere.
   It is not outside possibility for your Government to set up abbatoirs and freezing facilities at each collection port,and if anyone cared it would have been done many  many years ago.It would mean of course that our Saudi friends could`nt buy a live sheep dockside ,get it home (hog-tied) by any means and then "home-kill" the poor beast..but Hey? Is`nt the welfare of the animals more important? 
   Any whinging farmers should def get a trip to Saudi in the bottom deck,with 40,000 sheep above in the God knows how many decks these sheep Hell houses can carry.We`ll leave out the death by blunt knife out of kindness ,shall we?
   No wonder Merinos always look so depressed in Australia.


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## Fantasy_World (9 June 2011)

The video was totally shocking and full of misguided people. I can't comprehend how people could either refuse to accept cruel practice was taking place or recognised it was and were content that time would bring it to an end. The mind truly boggles :/
There were a lot of poignant images that will now stick in my mind. I think one of the worse ones was the cattle that were chained in a line with clear access to cattle being slaughtered and being butchered. That is unforgivable practice! The last one standing was visibly shaking through fear, how else could you explain it. That it was feeling a bit cold? 
Barbaric practice. Dropping cattle to their knees or heads banging on concrete. Throats being cut and the animal clearly suffering for a lengthy period before it died. Animals being beaten and tortured. The list is endless.....
The halal method is a totally unacceptable method of killing in my opinion and before anyone starts banging on how the head should be raised in order that the animal loses consciousness etc.  Let us remember that this was a practice used long before technology progressed to allow more humane kill methods. It is outdated and has no place in today's world!


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## Festive_Felicitations (9 June 2011)

Can't edit any more and just seen my shocking spelling  
Sorry, it has been a long day...


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## Festive_Felicitations (9 June 2011)

<<<Ok explanations only not defending anything>>>

EK - unfortunately fly repelent stuff isn't strong enough to stop the flies for any lenght of time and you would have to dip them weekly to have any chance of success. On X,000 ha properties running Y,000 sheep it is basically impossibe you'd spend your whole time mustering! 
_It would be nice to live in a world or country in which animal rights came first_

C34 - The approved and recommended (by the Indonesian church and gov, and in Aus) 'halal' method requires the use of a strong stun gun first then slitting of the throat.
_Not that I think this is any better, any truely efficent stun gun would also kill..._


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## Rose Folly (9 June 2011)

What is it with Australia? They're lovely, lovely people to meet but their government is total c**p when it comes to legislation on exports - remember the live sheep to the Middle East scandal. AllI can suggest is writing to the Australian Ambassador of whatever country you happen to live in and also, if you are thinking of a holiday to Australia, go somewhere else and tell the Australian authorities why you changed your plans. Nobody likes their pockets being affected - governments least of all.

I now have a list of countries as long as my arm that I won't go to because of human/animal abuse - and I'm quite happy to add Australia to that list.


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## stencilface (9 June 2011)

Felicity, agree with your sentiments entirely, aside from the horse shooting ones, it might be the best option, but it doesn't make it any easier to swallow 

I think many australians have known for a while that trying to sustain a british/european lifestyle ie farming cows and sheep in a country that is entirely not suited to cloven hooves is just stupid.  To survive long term, they really need to look at farming other stock, such as camels - which although not native (neither are cows or sheep though!) are obviously better suited to the aussie environments.

Either that, or maybe start farming quendas/quokkas - like kangas, but far easier to manage


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## Amaranta (9 June 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			All live exports for slaughter should be banned, its unfair on the animals, and uneconomic.

No animal of any description should be put through this barbaric trade.
		
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Completely agree


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## EAST KENT (9 June 2011)

Already done the writing to the correct minister re exports, no reply of course! It is Australia`s guilt,no longer one out of the public perception thank goodness. And No ,stopped buying anything to do with that country`s livestock trade years ago.Perhaps if the RSPCA could do something really useful for a change they could organise a petition for said minister.


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## RutlandH2O (9 June 2011)

Some 16 years ago, I was having a conversation with a sheep farmer
about the live transport of animals for slaughter. When I suggested mobile
abattoirs and refrigerated lorries field-side (yes, I was very naive) to solve
the live transport issue, his response was short and concise. He said:
"Dead sheep don't load themselves."


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## EAST KENT (10 June 2011)

And does`nt that say it all about that farmer?


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## belambi (2 July 2011)

In my humble opinion, the video should be shown widely on indonesian tv.

In Islam it is a sin to kill and consume anything that involves cruelty, in fact all animal cruelty is a sin in Islam. I believe that even w ithout western sensibilities, many would be horified.


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## Aces_High (8 July 2011)

To put a cat amongst the pigeons no doubt. But should offer some good discussion points.... 

Would you not think that the farmers are going to be paid per live weight on touch down in the Middle East.  Therefore ensuring that as much husbandry deemed possible is carried out whilst these sheep travel abroad - otherwise they will be out of pocket and making minimal profit.  The farmers do not want their livestock to be dead on arrival in the Middle East, it means a loss of profit.

Unfortunatly Australia is a good distance away from most places.  Due to the number of sheep travelling and the law of averages, there will be deaths.  The people in the M.E want their animals alive so they can be killed "Halal" if these animals were not shipped there, then Australia would lose a huge chunk of it's farming income which is gets through the export of sheep.  I just often feel that a lot of people jump on the bandwagon.  I agree these methods are not ideal but they will continue so why not try and make them as humane as possible.  

I am not going to tell a Muslim that he/she shouldn't eat halal meat.  I certainly wouldn't expect them to tell me that shooting, gutting, skinning and eating a deer off my farm was unacceptable.   I am also quite sure that a lot of the people who kill the animals in the Middle East would have been trained since children and would cause minimal terror to the animal in question.  I know there are some barbaric practises but there are different cultures throughout the world and respecting those cultures to me is very important.  

I saw a thing on dog meat in China recently.  I do not agree with these animals being skinned alive.  If they are slaughtered effectively I do not have a problem with people eating it.  I personally wouldn't choose to but wouldn't stop others.

I know it all comes to money but isn't that why people run businesses??

PS I am Australian and not as barbaric as some might think!


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## EAST KENT (8 July 2011)

Aces_High said:



			To put a cat amongst the pigeons no doubt. But should offer some good discussion points.... 

  I just often feel that a lot of people jump on the bandwagon.  I agree these methods are not ideal but they will continue so why not try and make them as humane as possible

I know it all comes to money but isn't that why people run businesses??

PS I am Australian and not as barbaric as some might think!
		
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 Not Ideal??? Words fail me


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## xspiralx (8 July 2011)

What is it with Australia? They're lovely, lovely people to meet but their government is total c**p when it comes to legislation on exports
		
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And what about Britain??

Thousands of sheep and calves that are just a few days old are shipped abroad from this country every year. Once abroad they are not protected by the welfare laws of this country. Journeys can be hellish - overcrowded, stiflingly hot, insufficiently ventilated, with little to no food or water provided - on journeys that can last days without rest. Animals can trample each other to death, or die of dehydration or exhaustion. And when they arrive they face the possibility of being reared and slaughtered in horrific conditions that would not be legal in the UK.

That is why live exports should be banned, it is a horrific and totally unnecessary practice to put animals through that kind of experience.


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## Alec Swan (8 July 2011)

xspiralx said:



			.......Thousands of sheep and calves that are just a few days old are shipped abroad from this country every year. Once abroad they are not protected by the welfare laws of this country. Journeys can be hellish - overcrowded, stiflingly hot, insufficiently ventilated, with little to no food or water provided - on journeys that can last days without rest. Animals can trample each other to death, or die of dehydration or exhaustion. And when they arrive they face the possibility of being reared and slaughtered in horrific conditions that would not be legal in the UK........
		
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I'm sorry,  but you have been misinformed.  

Sheep are rarely kept for milk production in the UK,  and so there would no point in removing lambs from their mothers.  Sheep tend to be kept for their meat,  and the best one to rear a lamb,  is the ewe.

Calves which are taken from their mothers,  within a few days of birth,  are those which have be born to a milk producing cow.  They will be kept here for veal,  or exported for the same purpose.

To suggest that the travelling conditions for such calves are, "overcrowded,  stiflingly hot,  insufficiently ventilated,  with little or no food or water provided - on journeys that can last for days without rest",  cannot be right.  

Those exported calves do not trample each other to death,  or die from dehydration or exhaustion.

The simple facts are,  that if you are correct,  why would a buyer,  presumably from the Continent,  pay good money,  to have his purchases die during the journey?  Would it make business sense for a buyer to put his purchases at risk,  by mismanagement en-route?  Of course it wouldn't,  and I'm sure that you can see that.

I care about animal welfare,  just as you do,  but it's so easy to read the tripe dished out by some of the welfare bodies,  without considering that they are as prone to multiplying the problems,  or successes,  as are our politicians!!

I wouldn't give a second thought to exporting calves to the Continent.  I would do so,  in the belief that they would arrive,  as they left me,  healthy,  fit and a viable purchase for my customer.

Alec.


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## mon (8 July 2011)

Well said Alec, a dead or poorly animal is of no use to anyone, lorries have hydraulic lift to the decks, regulated ventilation, animals in sections and lorries have water on board, that is in this country, we can't rule what every other country does


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## xspiralx (8 July 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm sorry,  but you have been misinformed.  

Sheep are rarely kept for milk production in the UK,  and so there would no point in removing lambs from their mothers.  Sheep tend to be kept for their meat,  and the best one to rear a lamb,  is the ewe.

Calves which are taken from their mothers,  within a few days of birth,  are those which have be born to a milk producing cow.  They will be kept here for veal,  or exported for the same purpose.

To suggest that the travelling conditions for such calves are, "overcrowded,  stiflingly hot,  insufficiently ventilated,  with little or no food or water provided - on journeys that can last for days without rest",  cannot be right.  

Those exported calves do not trample each other to death,  or die from dehydration or exhaustion.

The simple facts are,  that if you are correct,  why would a buyer,  presumably from the Continent,  pay good money,  to have his purchases die during the journey?  Would it make business sense for a buyer to put his purchases at risk,  by mismanagement en-route?  Of course it wouldn't,  and I'm sure that you can see that.

I care about animal welfare,  just as you do,  but it's so easy to read the tripe dished out by some of the welfare bodies,  without considering that they are as prone to multiplying the problems,  or successes,  as are our politicians!!

I wouldn't give a second thought to exporting calves to the Continent.  I would do so,  in the belief that they would arrive,  as they left me,  healthy,  fit and a viable purchase for my customer.

Alec.
		
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Actually Alec, I am much better informed on the subject than you think . I don't make a habit of commenting on things I know nothing about.

Sheep are exported in their thousands, and yes, it is dairy calves that are exported. I don't see how that is relevant. If they are kept here they may be shot shortly after birth or reared for veal - and the law in the UK means conditions are acceptable.

Even negating the not insignificant stress and trauma of a long journey for a young calf, there are less strict rules on the continent than in the UK for the rearing of veal calves, and they may be kept in barren systems.

There have been numerous studies examining the effects of long journeys on animals, and plenty of investigations which have proven the conditions of which I speak - animals overcrowded, with insufficient food, water and ventilation. Obviously this is not the case for all exported animals, but nor is it the rare exception, unfortunately.

I'm sorry if you find the truth uncomfortable, but the conditions many animals experience when exported are simply unacceptable.


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## xspiralx (8 July 2011)

mon said:



			Well said Alec, a dead or poorly animal is of no use to anyone, lorries have hydraulic lift to the decks, regulated ventilation, animals in sections and lorries have water on board, that is in this country, we can't rule what every other country does
		
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Precisely, which is why once British animals leave this country, many of them face the conditions I describe - and that is why the live export trade should be banned.


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## Alec Swan (8 July 2011)

xspiralx said:



			And what about Britain??

Thousands of sheep and calves that are just a few days old are shipped abroad from this country every year. Once abroad they are not protected by the welfare laws of this country.......
		
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Sheep which are a few days old,  are called lambs.  We do,  you're quite correct,  export lambs,  but never that I know of,  when they're alive.  They've been killed and processed here.  With the exception of valuable breeding stock,  we don't export live sheep,  from the UK.

I will accept that the slaughter conditions,  in many of the less enlightened,  or caring countries,  can be deplorable.  I've witnessed those conditions,  and they can be barbaric.

The question though,  is about live export.  When foreign buyers,  take our calves,  and rear them to a suitable weight for slaughter,  do you honestly think that they will put their huge financial input at risk,  by mismanagement?  I think it to be highly unlikely.  Stressed,  damaged or unthrifty calves,  will be a liability,  and will detract from,  and would on occasions negate,  any profit.

The EU puts demands upon *all* slaughter houses,  but it seems to me,  that we're the only nation to abide by them.  

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (8 July 2011)

xspiralx said:



			Sheep are exported in their thousands, .
		
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If by that,  you mean that they are alive,  at the point of export,  and from the UK,  then I'd like to see your evidence.

Alec.


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## xspiralx (8 July 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Sheep which are a few days old,  are called lambs.  We do,  you're quite correct,  export lambs,  but never that I know of,  when they're alive.  They've been killed and processed here.  With the exception of valuable breeding stock,  we don't export live sheep,  from the UK.

I will accept that the slaughter conditions,  in many of the less enlightened,  or caring countries,  can be deplorable.  I've witnessed those conditions,  and they can be barbaric.

The question though,  is about live export.  When foreign buyers,  take our calves,  and rear them to a suitable weight for slaughter,  do you honestly think that they will put their huge financial input at risk,  by mismanagement?  I think it to be highly unlikely.  Stressed,  damaged or unthrifty calves,  will be a liability,  and will detract from,  and would on occasions negate,  any profit.

The EU puts demands upon *all* slaughter houses,  but it seems to me,  that we're the only nation to abide by them.  

Alec.
		
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I didn't say lambs because I was referring to the calves being a few days old - not the sheep, which are adults.

And I'm afraid that we do export live sheep - around 8000 from Dover since December.

You might think it to be highly unlikely that animals exported from the UK can suffer these conditions, but I'm afraid it is true.


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## Alec Swan (8 July 2011)

xspiralx said:



			.......You might think it to be highly unlikely that animals exported from the UK can suffer these conditions, but I'm afraid it is true.
		
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I will again ask you,  do you really think that a Continental buyer,  one who has spent a great deal of money, will put his investment at risk,  by mismanagement?  A mismanagement which would deplete the value of his purchase.  Well,  do you?  Why would he?

Alec.


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## xspiralx (8 July 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			If by that,  you mean that they are alive,  at the point of export,  and from the UK,  then I'd like to see your evidence.

Alec.
		
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Below are the stats for live exports from the UK between December 2010 - end of Feb 2011. This information was released by the government under the freedom of information act.

It will probably not look very clear when I paste it as its from an excel document, but the salient facts are that over 8000 live sheep were shipped abroad from Dover between these dates - along with over 600 unweaned calves and 230 pigs.


Date of Departure
No of Vehicles
Departure Address
Country
Species
Weaned / Unweaned
No of Animals Certified on ITAHC
21/12/2010
3
N Yorkshire
France
Sheep
Weaned
480
N Yorkshire
France
Sheep
Weaned
550
Thirsk
France
Sheep
Weaned
254
29/12/2010
6
Dover Kent
Belgium
Sheep
Weaned
382
Staffordshire
Netherlands
Sheep
Weaned
314
N Yorkshire
France
Sheep
Weaned
551
Powys
France
Sheep
Weaned
465
Powys
Netherlands
Sheep
Weaned
463
Thirsk
France
Sheep
Weaned
505
TOTAL
Sheep
3964



Date of Departure
No of Vehicles
Departure Address
Country
Species
Weaned / Unweaned
No of Animals Certified on ITAHC
06/01/2011
3
Somerset
Belgium
Pigs
Weaned
60
N Yorkshire
France
Sheep
Weaned
480
N Yorkshire
France
Sheep
Weaned
550
17/01/2011
4
Leceistershire
Belguim
Sheep
Weaned
497
Dover
Belguim
Sheep
Weaned
220
Powys
Netherlands
Sheep
Weaned
447
Leceistershire
Netherlands
Sheep
Weaned
494
TOTAL
Sheep
2688
TOTAL
Pigs
60
Date of Departure
No of Vehicles
Departure Address
Country
Species
Weaned / Unweaned
No of Animals Certified on ITAHC
02/02/2011
3
N Devon
France
Cattle
Unweaned
235
Dover
Holland
Sheep
Weaned
243
Somerset
Belgium
Pigs
Weaned
100
22/02/2011
5
Leicestershire
Belgium
Sheep
Weaned
500
Somerset
Belgium
Pigs
Weaned
70
Dover
Netherlands
Sheep
Weaned
225
Denbighshire
France
Cattle
Unweaned
238
Powys
Netherlands
Sheep
Weaned
415
25/02/2011
1
Cockermoth
Spain
Cattle
Unweaned
134
Lancaster
Spain
Cattle
Unweaned
12
TOTAL
Calves
619
TOTAL
Sheep
1383
TOTAL
Pigs
170


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## xspiralx (8 July 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			I will again ask you,  do you really think that a Continental buyer,  one who has spent a great deal of money, will put his investment at risk,  by mismanagement?  A mismanagement which would deplete the value of his purchase.  Well,  do you?  Why would he?

Alec.
		
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Yes I do think that, because I know it to be true - as for why, its beyond me.

As I've said above, there have been numerous investigations proving these conditions, I have no reason or desire to make anything up.


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## mon (8 July 2011)

Most British farmers sell direct to abattoir or Market and then don't have a say what happens to them rely on laws and registration to uphold that. On the whole British animals are looked after as well as any


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## EAST KENT (9 July 2011)

"XPX" is quite right , living near Dover it is something I have always known. Actually my vet practice for a while did the paperwork for "fit to travel" at the lairage where they are rested prior to crossing.Quite a nice little earner too, £100 just to glance over each lorry load! The Animal Rights folk gave him quite a bit of trouble,both at the surgery and his home. It was when he tried to state to me that veal crates "are like the Hilton to calves" that he "got some back"..to the effect that in my opinion he would eat his words as undoubtably he would be a retched veal calf in his next life on this planet.
   ALL live export should cease now,it is vile.However I do know those ghastly sheep ships are the worst atrocity and our own (vile) export trade pales in comparison.
  Farm animals have a very rough deal,better here than most,but still a rough deal.


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## mymare (9 July 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			All live exports for slaughter should be banned, its unfair on the animals, and uneconomic.

No animal of any description should be put through this barbaric trade.
		
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Totally agree with you Andy.





Felicity_09 said:



			I live in Aus and work for the Dept of Ag and this is MHO... 

If you can access it (and have a very strong stomach) watch the 4 Corners report (www.abc.net.au/iview then search or link above) I managed about a third.
Within the industry there has been objections to the live export for a long time, but this report has finally recieved enough public exposure (it was being discucced in the hairdressers on Wed in Sydney!) to finally generate the political pressure to get some action which will hopefully result in some positive results.
Should it happen? No. not nessecary Aus has the facilities to process the meat and would create some much needed jobs in the 'top end' Slaughter houses nationally have been going out of buisness due to lack of demand. Often whole towns relied on the abottoir to keep it alive.  The 'fresh' argumant shouldn't hold any sway as given its proximity beef could be slaughtered, packaged and shipped in a week - about the same time it takes to get to the shelf of your local shop (not entierly sure about all butchers).  We have approvaed 'halal' abbotoirs and procedures.  Will it casue fincial loss? Yes, _temporarily_.  Unfortunately all the 'loud' voices are the corporate stations (there are exceptions).  The family owned busnisses (well only some to be fair) are and have been looking for alternative markets/options for a while.

The other aspect to consider is that part of the problem is general lack of education in Indonesia. A lot of the people working in the abbottoirs in Indonesia will have been beated and by our standards, mistreated all their lives. So while their actions shock us it is not so far from the 'norm' for them. I'm not excusing their behavoir (which is frowned on by their own church) just trying to paint the big picture.  So the best solution is like for so many problems is EDUCATION. SO if you really want to help the cattle write a letter to the embassy expressing your outrage at the treatment and your support for either stopping the live trade entierly (ideal but unlikely) or any program educating the locals. Better planned than the last....

Musling - as Serenity described is better than fly-strike. However there are lines of quality Merinos that don't have the excess skin (1/2 of NZ's sheep), and in Aus.  The quality of wool is not affected and people are going to have to let go of the 'bloodline they've used for generations' and make the swap.  The govenment will never enforce it but the fashion market is pushing the change slowly.

Yes we should eat kangaroo and camel. Camel is easy to farm, Kangaroo is harder as they haven't been domesticated for the last 1000 yrs and even if hand reared still get stressed around humans very easily. Stress releases chemicals into the blood/meat making it taste unpleasant. It also has to be cooked carefully or ends up tough as dried out old leather boots (found out the hard way).

On the shooting of the horses - it is less stressful for them (scientific evidence to back up) than coralling them and shipping to a slaughter house or seperating into small groups and being shot by a licensed killer.  They are naturally fligt animals The shooters in the choppers have to under go special training and are some of the best shots in the country. There is also a time limit on how long they can persue a group.  The horses also learn pretty damm quick that if they hide under bushes the choopers can't find them!!! 

I'm not going to get into the whole Aborigine debarcle, becasue it is a total failure on both sides.

This is totally my opinion.
Overall Australia, while it would like to claim otherwise, is a shocking country if you look at its human rights, animal cruelty, and environmental record.  Narrow minded and incredibly racist for all its multi-cultural claims and as a nation ignorant.  
Having said that there are a lot of good things about living here, it has some incredibly beautiful and unique landscapes and wildlife, and there are lots of lovely people.
		
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Very informative comment! 





Rose Folly said:



			What is it with Australia? They're lovely, lovely people to meet
		
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Bar one - my step mother!


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## tristar (10 July 2011)

when the english police shot two loose horses there was a great outcry against the ordeal that was suffered by these unfortunate creatures.

if australia has allowed the problem to get out hand, as someone on here stated, there is now 400,000 wild horses, then there is the truth, this is a man made situation caused by failure to act at the appropriate time and control the numbers.

the australian government are responsible there is no excuse.

don't they have tranquillisers in australia?  all reduction in numbers should carried out under veterinary supervision.

the vision of those horses being shot by a prxt from a helecopter will live with me forever,  no one will convince me that those horses were all killed outright, no way, this is not the way treat horses in the 21ST century, feral or otherwise.


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## mon (10 July 2011)

But I have heard that some failed racehorses are flew back to the desert and shot and left, which surely is just as bad as cattle and sheep exports, we can't police everything


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## xspiralx (10 July 2011)

mon said:



			But I have heard that some failed racehorses are flew back to the desert and shot and left, which surely is just as bad as cattle and sheep exports, we can't police everything
		
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What a ridiculous attitude. So according to you, because something is a big problem, there's no point even trying to improve it?

Its a good job not everyone has your attitude or we'd still live in the dark ages when it was considered acceptable to have slaves and treat women like second class citizens


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## Festive_Felicitations (10 July 2011)

Given the size of the out back, lack of fences and general facilities traqualising and 'humanely' destroying the brumbies is just not viable. It would be very easy to tranq a horse, then loose them. Supposing that horse then fell whiel drugged and broke a leg? Your condemming them to a slow and painful death.

I've met and interrogated one of the 'shooters' in the NT, they aim for the head (prefered shot, but hard) or heart region. They use high powered rifles that will cause a lot of damage and therefore kill as quickly as possible.  Sure not every shot is going to be a perfect instant kill but they have to maintain a 95% plus 'kill rate' and a monitored on the job.
Having also been around corraled wild horses waiting to be sold/shot and the sheer smell of stress/fear in the yards I honestly believe shooting is the best option for Australia.

With the live export from Aus, as I understand the price paid to the farmers for the stock is determined by the condition they are in on boarding the ship. The whole fee may not be paid till they arrive.
Unfortunately the numbers are such that the buisness run on a erm 'margin'. So if they want 3500 sheep they buy 3750 on the principal that they will have a loss rate of X %. There are enough sheep/cattle exported to do this, and I presume that they don't care about the ones that die. 

If meat can be certified as organic, and products as nut free etc, I sure that the Middle East can learn to accept meat certified as butchered 'halal' in Aus so that nothing has to be exported live.
But no country is going to insist that they accept their meat allready butched as long as they have the lovely political trump card of controling the worlds oil stocks... (thats my cynical opinion)


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## mon (10 July 2011)

So we ban cattle and sheep for slaughter being exported, what we need to try and get is better welfare, lots of animals travel for various reasons, how can it be totally policed, put a value on them that can be fiddled no didn't say it is ok just realistic and around us the number of slaughterhouses shut in last 25 hrs is a lot so sheep acne cattle have to travel


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