# Advice on TB stallion to breed eventer or sport horse



## Piran (21 January 2014)

Can anyone advise on what TB stallions are out there (must be 100% TB) to use on an RID mare to breed an eventer or sports horse. Must have been successful in its own right in dressage, SJ or eventing. The youngster will be sold before breaking so the stallion must be 'commercial'.


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## christine48 (21 January 2014)

In today's market I'd think seriously before breeding to sell unless selling as a foal ( and they aren't selling that well at the moment). I think you would end up out of pocket.


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## Piran (21 January 2014)

The UK economy  will hopefully be fully recovered in 4 years time and well-bred youngsters will be in demand again when I have a 3yo to sell


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## ihatework (21 January 2014)

Piran said:



			The UK economy  will hopefully be fully recovered in 4 years time and well-bred youngsters will be in demand again when I have a 3yo to sell
		
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I wouldn't count on it!!
Especially breeding into the event market.
I actually cannot think of a 100% TB that I would consider a commercially safe bet if you plan to sell pre-breaking.

Some pure TBs to consider might be revolution, watermill swatch, sula blue


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## welshdanash (21 January 2014)

My RID mare had a foal by Mill Law last year. I know he is not 100% TB but I'm really pleased with the cross. Maybe consider Jaguar Mail? Or Power Blade?


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## Piran (21 January 2014)

I thought about those first but their stud fees are high....and Chilli Morning's probably will be too! Does your Mill Law-RID foal look like it would be athletic enough to event? First cross RID foals are not ideal for eventing so I need a stallion that moves well and can gallop.


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## welshdanash (21 January 2014)

I think that the foal would probably event. Like you said its rare that a first cross would have the blood to take it to the higher levels, but I'm sure that a well bred quality foal could do a good job. I think the best bet for selling the foal is finding the sire that best suits the mare. This may mean spending money on the higher stud fees (it normally does  )!! Have you considered Primitive Proposal or Mighty Magic?


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## Maesfen (22 January 2014)

As you're in the south west have a look at Kings Composer and also any of the stallions that are at either Llangaller or Vauterhill Studs as I'm sure the owners would be pleased to show you their TBs that might not have competed themselves but are producing decent competition horses.  There is also Ramexico with Henry Horn (Narrowmore Stud) on Dartmoor; not  TB but a prolific improver.


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## sywell (22 January 2014)

You are breeding for a horse to compete in 6 years time. What way is eventing going and what will the market need. I see trappy fences and increasing standards in dressage. What are the top stallions in the WBFSH or FEI rankings that might improve the mare in that ability and is TB still the answere at all levels under 3 star?


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## JanetGeorge (22 January 2014)

Piran said:



			I thought about those first but their stud fees are high....and Chilli Morning's probably will be too! Does your Mill Law-RID foal look like it would be athletic enough to event? First cross RID foals are not ideal for eventing so I need a stallion that moves well and can gallop.
		
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A lot of them are!  You need to have a good look at your mare - many RIDs have TB quite high up in their pedigree - and if you put those mares t a TB, the TB usually dominates.  Hell, I have a 7/8ths ID gelding who looks as TB as most 1st crosses, having a grandmother who was 1st cross and it's hard to see the ID in her at all.

Welshdanash's mare is pretty solid ID 'traditional' breeding (I bred her) but the foal by Mill Law (from the pics I've seen) oozes 'quality' and I'd be VERY surprised if it wasn't up to eventing to a decent level.


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## christine48 (22 January 2014)

I've bred a few and I know how much it costs to get them to 3 yr old. You may not get that much more for an unbroken 3 yr old than you would have got selling it as a foal.
As someone said, the way eventing is going with more emphasis on dressage & show jumping the 'blood type warm bloods' will come into their own.
Yours will only be 50% TB, so realistically I doubt it would fetch a huge price as an un broken 3 yr old unless it's out of a proven mare.


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## ritajennings (22 January 2014)

This is a TB x RID
://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac108/ritajennings1949/Facebook/Ginger%20Cake%20and%20Emily%20Mereidith/67807_485537451530051_1115046161_n.jpg[/IMG][/URL]


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## welshdanash (22 January 2014)

I love that horse Rita, but then again I like its sire!  Thanks for being complimentary Janet. I obviously think that he is great but I am bias! Piran, I think that my foal has thrown a lot more towards the TB than I thought he was going too (this isn't a bad thing!). I don't know if I thought he might be chunkier because the blood was going on the bone rather than the other way around. I suppose thats the gamble when crossing two breeds. I will try and find a decent picture of my foal. I would be interested to find out who you choose!


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## JanetGeorge (22 January 2014)

christine48 said:



			Yours will only be 50% TB, so realistically I doubt it would fetch a huge price as an un broken 3 yr old unless it's out of a proven mare.
		
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I'm afraid this is right.  I've bred 20 odd IDxTB or TBx mares.  I think TWO I managed to sell as yearlings - the rest were sold as BACKED 3 and 4 yo's at prices that were barely break-even.  I couldn't sell them as unbacked 3 year olds.

The problem is that while a few (probably unsuitable) people buy unbacked youngsters - they're usually chasing a bargain.  A FEW top event prospects might be sold to professionals - but the top riders tend to have a few 'favoured' breeders they go to.

I would suggest that a TBxRID, sold unbacked at 3, will lose SERIOUS money over the cost of producing it!  Even a backed and going nicely one might lose - particularly if you can't back yourself and have had to pay someone to do it!


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## popsdosh (22 January 2014)

Piran said:



			The UK economy  will hopefully be fully recovered in 4 years time and well-bred youngsters will be in demand again when I have a 3yo to sell
		
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Dream on with what your proposing and it will be a nasty shock when you learn what the real world offers you for your unbroken 3yo!
You say its important the stallion must have been successful in its own right ,may I ask what has the mare achieved to make her worth breeding from!!! This will have a bigger influence on marketability than anything else. Maybe you have not examined your market well enough to know what the demand is . It is one reason more warmbloods are finding their way into ISH bloodlines.


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## ritajennings (22 January 2014)

Thanks dan xx


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## Wells (22 January 2014)

I've also been looking for a nice small TB stallion to put to my ID mare. The stallions at Langeller stud look promising. Does anyone have a foal by Kings Point at End House Stud?


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## Poorlypony (22 January 2014)

The stallions suggested by ihatework (and I would add Revolution's son Sir Suave) are currently well regarded both in terms of their temperament and performance (I am considering for my mare) but as everyone else has said if your plan is to breed a foal to turn a profit I would think again.

I am eagerly awaiting my mare's first foal but even with the advantage of a natural covering, taking first time and our own land I still know that even if it lives pretty happily on fresh air until it's 3/4 I still won't save much over buying a smart 4 year old. On the flip side of the coin, my 3 year old developed physitis at 16 months, underwent a largely unsuccessful operation and now even if stays sound and goes well he is worth nada and has cost me a lot to get there I.e. as the breeder you take the risk on them for 3/4 years. However it is my hobby and I know they cost me money and certainly don't make me any!

Good luck with whatever you do


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## LilMissy (22 January 2014)

Did anyone see the interview H&C did with Ollie Townend at the Stallion Parade, Hartpury? He made some key points about the need for a horse with more than 50% TB blood at high levels of eventing.  Everyone has caught up with the need to improve their dressage now but I don't think any breed can beat the TB for its gallop, intelligence and stamina on the XC.  I think its now about crossing the TB bloodlines who have proven themselves as exceptional movers as well as being able to gallop and jump with the dressage and show jump lines. I have a graded purebred TB mare who moves better than many traditionally bred WB's I've seen and she can gallop! 

I adore the IDxTB but would never breed one commercial I'm afraid or certainly not to sell unless ridden and proven under saddle - that's a long commitment! Its the only reason I haven't used Rita's lovely boy (sorry Rita!).  He would definitely be on my list for a 'keeper' horse! 

However, if you decide to go ahead regardless I would highly recommend looking at Sula Blue. Produced slowly, he is showing everything you want from a TB stallion - exceptional temperament, great movement and conformation, huge jump and the MOST trainable and genuine boy I've had the pleasure to meet for a long time.


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## eventrider23 (23 January 2014)

I would also echo Ihatework with Revolution, Sula Blue and Watermill Swatch.  Sula Blue is a XC machine....just adores it and you can see it in every stride.  Revolution was a good eventer himself and is proving to sire consistent stock.  He does have a son who was graded in Sir Suave but I believe he was gelded early last year as the owners were wanting to cut back on the stud side and so I don't know how much frozen is available but he was a VERY nice horse.  There is also Weston Justice who no isn't pure TB but is 15/16th so as near as darn it.  Very good Advanced eventer and again his stock coming through are proving very consistent and moving up the ranks.

Another to consider is Duke of Hearts.  He was a successful racehorse who when he retired from racing went on to grade with pretty much all major studbooks.  He has sired a graded stallion (Duke of Harvard) who is now eventing under Kai Ruder and is also being used by a lot of top eventing breeders.  For example the full sister to Andrew Nicholson's 4 star winner Avebury has had a foal to him as well as being used by riders like Sandra Auffarth and the Osholts.  This is him - http://futuresporthorses.co.uk/stallions/duke-of-hearts-xx/


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## Rollin (23 January 2014)

Piran said:



			I thought about those first but their stud fees are high....and Chilli Morning's probably will be too! Does your Mill Law-RID foal look like it would be athletic enough to event? First cross RID foals are not ideal for eventing so I need a stallion that moves well and can gallop.
		
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Why not use a Shagya Arab.  I became involved in the breed because I wanted tall Arabians to cross with my CB mares.

My stallion's sire Tatianus was EU Shagya Champion, an eventer and underwent 100 day test in Germany.  His frozen semen is exported all over the world.

What do you get from an Arab? - temperament, ask my boy's trainer in Surrey, they cannot believe a stallion can be so calm and well behaved. Delighted to have him on their yard. Great feet and tough as old boots, which is why they make such good endurance horses.

Read about the Klimke's eventers in this article.

http://www.shagyasport.com/news_connection_article.html

Good luck with your breeding.


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## etaylor (28 January 2014)

I have recently bought a TB x ID and I found it really hard to find many to look at.  I think that the amateur market are turning back to the traditionally bred ISH and that there should be a market for this type of horse.  When you look at the wanted ads in horsequest or the like they all seem to be after this type of horse.  The challenge is selling them as youngsters, if you haven't sold as a foal I suspect you have to wait until they are broken in as 4 year olds to make any money.


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## JanetGeorge (28 January 2014)

etaylor said:



			I have recently bought a TB x ID and I found it really hard to find many to look at.  I think that the amateur market are turning back to the traditionally bred ISH and that there should be a market for this type of horse.  When you look at the wanted ads in horsequest or the like they all seem to be after this type of horse.  The challenge is selling them as youngsters, if you haven't sold as a foal I suspect you have to wait until they are broken in as 4 year olds to make any money.
		
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Exactly!  And selling them as foals - at least for a price that covers the stud fee - has been virtually impossib;e in the past 3-4 years (and I speak as one who has been breeding them!)  Backed/ ridden away and going nicely is the right time - but at present you'd lose money!


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