# Using Baileys Stud Balancer with foals?



## Holly831 (22 November 2010)

Farrier came today and Rocky is now quite 'upright' in front. He commented last trim (every 4 weeks) and left his toes longer but it has got worse. His bone has grown more quickly than his tendons and so needs sorting quickly.

I have been advised to wean him - which I have done rather abruptly today (I hate doing it this way). He is out with his field mates and Mum is in for now.

He is 5.5 months old and stands over 14hh at his wither and taller at his qtrs.
He is out 24/7 with ad lib haylage (only the last 3 weeks as we had grass until then!)

I had intended to leave him on his dam until Feb next year and wean him at 8+ months

Question - I started feeding Baileys on advice from their rep (following The BEF series) I feed at the recommended levels of 5 to 6 cups split over 2 feeds per day with a small handful of Afa A and fibre beet to mix it in.

Could this be why he is overgrowing? I was assured the balancer would 'support' his growth - he was a large foal when he went to BEF at 6 weeks old!

Help!! I don't want to make this worse, he is such a lovely foal and a keeper for us. Do I stop the feed all together? 

Thanks for any replies


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## chrissie1 (22 November 2010)

The only foal I ever fed it to, as advised by Baileys and of right age to start it, went footy on it with raised DP.  Cutting it out, and all feed for a few days, and stabling cured that.  This was most def. feed related.
I have also fed Suregrow to foals that weren't genetically related and both shot up with an upright foot that required many trims, stabling overnight with hay at chest height etc, to put right.
I have had a hugely experienced remedial farrier, who only works on vet. reccomendations, to trim them (neither belonged to me but were here at livery) and he said every time that these days we oversupplement mares while in foal, and foals after birth.  At a time when so much more is known about nutrition he is busier than he has ever been, and he is reaching retirement age and travels all over the place to studs.
So, no I don't feed foals stud balancers!


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## only_me (22 November 2010)

Know nothing about breeding, but

5-6 cups is rather a lot?

We feed the stud balancer to our horses (eventers) and they get 3 cups a day (1 and a half cup in morning, same at night) with chaff (plus oats if needed)! 

Its something like 32% protein, so could very well be the reason he is growing so quickly!


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## Clodagh (22 November 2010)

My vet is opposed to foals having anything more than a mineral lick, and she also said I should watch my hay as we cut it early this year as it was so dry, she said it could quite likely have the protein levels of stud cubes, so I would watch the haylage as well.


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## GinnieRedwings (22 November 2010)

I use Bailey's Stud Balancer on my mare when she is nursing only - and I stop the foal from sharing her dinner. My guess would be that Rocky's bones are almost certainly growing too fast because of the food he eats. I wouldn't think it was a brand-specific or product specific issue though. Foals and weanlings don't need hard feed - I agree with Chrissie1 and believe it is the root of all developmental evils. 

I like Bailey's feeds but I would NEVER feed anything at the manufacturer's recommended level... It is in their interest that we overfeed our horses, but not in the horses' interest.

I give my youngsters a spoonful (literally) of soaked speedybeet & grassnuts and a pinch of Hi-Fi once a day to keep them busy when the others are eating, just enough to mix a scoop of vitamin supplement. And ad lib hay (not haylage, which is too rich). All to ensure they grow slowly as nature intended.

An interesting fact: one of my friends just bought a 5 year old horse. She spent £9,000 on him and looked at very many in the £5,000-£10,000 price bracket. The one she bought was the 5th she had vetted. The other 4 failed the vet on OCD - a problem which is believed (by vets & farriers) to be brought on by overfeeding weanlings and yearlings - if owners carry on trying to make their yearlings look like 4 year olds (and by that I mean have meat on their ribs, which they shouldn't have at that age) and shove tons of over-rich hardfeed down them, we are going to lose a whole generation's worth of excellent breeding to developmental diseases like OCD, until people wake up and feed hay & a vit & min lick or supplement only and accept that between the ages of roughly 8 months to 20 months, horses look gangly, weedy, sometimes ugly, but they will last longer! 

Rant over, sorry


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## eventrider23 (22 November 2010)

I love BSB and feed it to all late term mares and ones with foals at foot however I would not feed it to foals generally under the age of 6 months (although they say 4 months) and as a rule I do not like feeding it to foals as I do feel it keeps them in such good condition that they end up growing to fast.  Instead I tend to feed my foals D&H Foal Mix OR if BSB NEVER at the manufacturers recommended levels as they are so high.....I mean it states I should feed a weanling the same amount in some instances as a fully grown mare with foal at foot!  And so if I do feed it, I tend to go 'by eye' and how the horse is looking.

My current weanling and yearling are on nothing but good old Dr Green as my new winter grazing is so lush, they need nothing else.  If I see them needing something I will start first with a Vit/Mineral lick and then hay before I go down the hard feed route.


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## Holly831 (22 November 2010)

Gennie, I have only ever 'fed' my foals adlib hay/haylage in the past but after the BEF the Baileys rep convinced me as Rocky was such a big foal he 'needed' the suppliment to support him. They actually recommend 6 to 7 cups a day in winter 

My foals are normally the standard gangly yearlings etc (I hate to see them prepared for the show ring as over mature babies) I like them to be out (rugless) 24/7 if at all possible and well handled but not over handled 'in your face' youngsters.

I do have Rocky Red Field licks in my fields and will stop the Baileys over the next week.

I am a strong believer that we overfeed in foal mares causing problems with huge foals too.

In future I will listen to my gut instinct instead of a rep!!


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## sallyf (22 November 2010)

Personally we dont feed a balancer but we do feed and always have fed stud cubes to our in foal mares and foals right up until they are 2 years old.
In 20 odd years we havnt had a case of ocd and all of our stock sold have passed vettings whether they have been 4 months or 4 years old so i can only say it how it is for us.
Iv'e never had a foal go upright either.
I do believe some of it is genetics though and some i believe is caused by a mismatch between mares and stallions, ie when someone puts a small slight mare to a much bigger much heavier stallion which causes the foal to lay down bone too quickly as it trys to grow to what it genetics are telling it too ,too quickly .
We tend to breed like to like and keep the genetics simple and that seems to work.
Personally it would be no good me feeding my mares balancer as they just wouldnt keep condition on as well as i like .


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## AJBliss (22 November 2010)

I am planning to put my big colt on Surelimb at weaning--he doesn't need any "extras" really, so ad-lib forage when in, then alfa + Surelimb for feeds.  Maybe Carron oil in the spring when I want to take him places.  His dam has been on it throughout  pregnancy and lactation, as she's a good doer and has still made him a bigger boy than I expected.


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## Alec Swan (22 November 2010)

Holly831 said:



			.......In future I will listen to my gut instinct instead of a rep!! 

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It sounds to me as if you've learned a lesson,  which will last you for ever!!  There's a world of difference between a youngster which is "ribby",  and another which is poor. Why is it that we look at a youngsters ribs,  when we judge their condition?  Look at the animals back.  If it's flat,  as in well covered,  then that should be our yardstick.  

I once had a youngster with OCD,  and it was my fault,  because I listened to the advice which I should have ignored.  If I have another,  then it'll be for another reason.

I work on the basis that I NEVER believe what I'm told,  by some one who's trying to sell me something!

Interesting and thought provoking responses,  from everyone.

Alec.


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## Toast (22 November 2010)

good god 5-6 cups is a lot!
I always find baileys 'reccommended amounts' are always ludicrously huge.
Im not a massive fan of baileys stud balancer as it is, overpriced and you can get just as good for less. I use D&H Suregrow.
However if your noticing problems that could be feed related id cut it out now.
my 7 month old tbxwb is on nothing but haylage.
x


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## tikino (22 November 2010)

having listen to a rep in the past and ending up with a youngster with a severe case of ocd and being pts i only every feed my youngsters fibre so the are on hifi and fibre nuts and they look great and are growing steadily.


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## GinnieRedwings (22 November 2010)

Holly831 & Sallyf, I wasn't at all being personal when I climbed on my soap box and ranted and apologise if I upset anyone. 

I am not trying to say everyone else is wrong and I am right either and my personal experience of breeding is minute in comparison to some people on this forum. I do read a lot and the latest research does suggest that a lot of bone development issues are due to overfeeding and "pushing" babies through their skinny stage. I remember growing up in France with a generation of Selle Francais horses being lost before their teens to navicular disease and the finger being pointed at poor nutrition in early life - I believe the situation is now much better with large studs in Normandy working to rectify the problem and this rising trend in OCD could be controlled similarly.

It has to be acknowledged that horse "nutrition" has evolved hugely in the last 10-20 years and the nutritional contents of stud cubes has no doubt changed an awful lot in the process.

Sally, you might be right that there is a breed influence, though in the case of my friend's doomed horse purchase, there were 2 IDXTB & 2 Warmbloods, so no real trend there. There were no pure TB, though the size of the "trial" may not be admissible from a scientific point of view 

Will anyone agree with me that there is a whole section of the equestrian world, who keep enormously fat animals and call them looking "well"? Isn't it a trend of our Western societies to pour our collective fear of missing out and our collective guilt in the face of attrocities like Amersham and compensate by stuffing our animals full of food and wrapping them in cotton wool in the mistaken belief that treating them "better" than our fellow human beings somehow makes us better people?


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## millitiger (22 November 2010)

I've never fed any of mine hard feed before weaning.

Afterwards they get haylage, grass and about 1 mug of Topspec a day.

Vinnie was huge as a weanling and as a 4yro now is 18hh. he has always had plenty to eat with ad-lib haylage and his Topspec but looked lanky right up until he was a 3yro and even now still looks weedy some days.

Fingers crossed you notice a quick improvement in your boy.


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## sallyf (22 November 2010)

GinnieRedwings said:



			Holly831 & Sallyf, I wasn't at all being personal when I climbed on my soap box and ranted and apologise if I upset anyone. 

I am not trying to say everyone else is wrong and I am right either and my personal experience of breeding is minute in comparison to some people on this forum. I do read a lot and the latest research does suggest that a lot of bone development issues are due to overfeeding and "pushing" babies through their skinny stage. I remember growing up in France with a generation of Selle Francais horses being lost before their teens to navicular disease and the finger being pointed at poor nutrition in early life - I believe the situation is now much better with large studs in Normandy working to rectify the problem and this rising trend in OCD could be controlled similarly.

It has to be acknowledged that horse "nutrition" has evolved hugely in the last 10-20 years and the nutritional contents of stud cubes has no doubt changed an awful lot in the process.

Sally, you might be right that there is a breed influence, though in the case of my friend's doomed horse purchase, there were 2 IDXTB & 2 Warmbloods, so no real trend there. There were no pure TB, though the size of the "trial" may not be admissible from a scientific point of view 

Will anyone agree with me that there is a whole section of the equestrian world, who keep enormously fat animals and call them looking "well"? Isn't it a trend of our Western societies to pour our collective fear of missing out and our collective guilt in the face of attrocities like Amersham and compensate by stuffing our animals full of food and wrapping them in cotton wool in the mistaken belief that treating them "better" than our fellow human beings somehow makes us better people?
		
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Didnt think anything was personal at all far from it 
Just relaying my experience .


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## Holly831 (22 November 2010)

sallyf said:



			Didnt think anything was personal at all far from it 
Just relaying my experience .
		
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Me too!!

I am a appauled at the 'fatness' and over growth of a lot os the foals I see. I just can't believe I have let this happen to my gorgeous Rocky!!

He was such a big boy I trusted what I was told and feel I have badly let him down. I hate having to wean him so abruptly although so far he has been good as gold and left Mum no problems when I put him back out again (it's a fair walk too)

I will post some pics of him taken today later so you can see he isn't an overfed fat baby - he is 'what it says on the tin' a 5.5 month old colt - still very cute but about to hit the 'ugly' stage. You can't see his ribs as his coat is soooo thick he looks like a woolly teady bear 

I really appreciate the replies given and will cut out all hard feed within the next few days (just want to wean him off!!)

Thanks again B x


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## CBFan (22 November 2010)

I too suffered at the hands of a feed balancer. My cleveland bay filly was in the first crop of foals that her breeder fed on topspec at weaning. Sadly at 8 months old she was diagnosed with physitis and it was later confirmed that she had OCD in her stifles. Breeder has now returned to simply providing add lib hay and access to a vit and min block despite 'advice' from feed co rep.

OP, I hope you've caught your boy early - it sounds like you have! good luck with the weaning.


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## Smile_and_Wave (22 November 2010)

I dont like the baileys product and the woman who always advises around is talks total crap and suggest the most insane feed regimes for horses, for comparison my weanling gets one cup of spillers youngstock pellets and is gorwing steadily and well and is a good weight he also get ad lib hayledge

ive looked after one foal with a growth problem like yours he literally was fed very very little to try stunt his growth for a few months in the hope that he would grow more regularly and was weaned early, have you got the vets advice it is a condition that requires quite a lot of management


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## jaypeebee (22 November 2010)

Ive used Baileys stud balancer for years and years.  I feed 2 cups each day to my weanlings and have not had any problems.


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## Holly831 (22 November 2010)

Thanks, I have phoned my vet for advice and he is coming out to have a quick look tomorrow when he is passing. His advice over the phone after speaking to my farrier was to wean quickly, which I have now done and Rocky does seem quite settled now (he has stopped shouting for Mum at the moment anyway)

Farrier seems to think there will be no long term problem as long as we can limit his growth now. Someone suggested gelding him to set him back so I will ask the vet re that tomorrow as well.

Again - back to gut instinct I think and learn to trust what I feel rather than a very very good sales speak!! A hard lesson learned but hopefully no long term damage


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## nijinsky (22 November 2010)

I use Topspec stud balancer & have done since weaned.  I've had no problems at all.  I do not however feed the recommended amount.  My two, now 17 months & 15 months are on 1 scoop of Alfa A mollasses free, 2 cups of the stud balancer, once per day and adlib hay.  They are living out and have a field lick.


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## CBFan (23 November 2010)

Holly831 said:



			Thanks, I have phoned my vet for advice and he is coming out to have a quick look tomorrow when he is passing. His advice over the phone after speaking to my farrier was to wean quickly, which I have now done and Rocky does seem quite settled now (he has stopped shouting for Mum at the moment anyway)

Farrier seems to think there will be no long term problem as long as we can limit his growth now. Someone suggested gelding him to set him back so I will ask the vet re that tomorrow as well.

Again - back to gut instinct I think and learn to trust what I feel rather than a very very good sales speak!! A hard lesson learned but hopefully no long term damage 

Click to expand...

I would say the changes you are making to his diet should be sufficient to steady his growth. sounds like he's going to be a big lad anyway but hopefully cutting the protein down will steady his growth rather than encouraging big spurts...

I do wonder, those of you who just feed a couple of cupfulls of your chosen balancer rather than the recomended and therefore 'balanced' dose, whether your youngsters are indeed getting the correct balance of nutrients :{ ... thats all!


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## chrissie1 (23 November 2010)

My Han x Dutch/TB yearling stand well over 16hh, although she was born at the end of feb so is not far off two in reality.
She is in fab condition, and no one who sees her, and doesn't know my feed regime, ever believes me when I say she has never, ever, had stud feed, balancer etc but has had a few (currently 3 coffee mugs a day) of Spillers HF cubes, HiFi, D and H totally unmolassed beet and Benevit.  She has also had soaked grass nuts, low energy ones, when the grass has gone, and ad lib home made haylage, made dry so it is hay rather than lush haylage, cut late in year to keep levels low.
I did aim for a bigger foal from the mare when I chose the stallion......


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## K27 (23 November 2010)

I have used BSB for my foal for a short time in the past- when I purchased him I was advised to feed him 6 cups a day(!!)- ...... to a little Cob foal who is naturally a good doer..... I thought to myself theres no way I'm doing that so I fed him a mug per feed, I found he bulked out too much on it and could have started looking top heavy despite me feeding less than the recommended amount, so I changed him to the Spillers Gro and Win (as my others are all fed Spillers) and he looked better and more as he should on it, not so bulked out looking and his growing is slow and steady, no foot problems either.


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## aimeetb (23 November 2010)

I do wonder, those of you who just feed a couple of cupfulls of your chosen balancer rather than the recomended and therefore 'balanced' dose, whether your youngsters are indeed getting the correct balance of nutrients :{ ... thats all![/QUOTE]


CBFan, I know I am sorry, I always come back to you! LOL!

I am still in such a worry and turmoil about my filly! 

Your comment above was my worry when I was just feeding her hay and a vit and min lick, a stud vet said she should be given a balancer to make sure (as you said above) she is getting all the vits and mins she needs in the correct quantities.

Having spoken to Baileys and D&H I thought the lady at D & H really listedned to my problem and advised that I fed her D&H Ultimate Balancer as you only need to feed 100g per 100kg body weight so for her this would be 250 - 275g per day which I thought was much better than feeding her pounds of the BSB or 1.5 pounds of the Suregrow to get the right levels.

It is about 26% protein but with the amount being fed this would only be around 75 - 80g of protein per day which she said is close to just over a kilo of good hay! This really convinced me, also is has MSM in it for soothing her joints, digestion aids and all the vits and mins. I did ask her about just going on Surelimb but she said that the small amount of protein would be good for her during the winter and then maybe swap to the Surelimb and plain chaff in the summer when the grass is providing more. 

She is still looking a bit ribby which is what I wanted but has a lovely coat, flat back and her legs and joints are cool, she could be a bit ribbier and it would be ok but I assume this will happen as we progress through winter.

I am so worried that I am doing the wrong thing for her but just thought that with a bit extra now, when the grass comes back I have something to take away to balance out the effect of the grass.

Sorry to hi-jack but CBFan, GinnieRedwings, Maesfen, JanetGeorge all you oracles that I cant remeber your names! Please help me sort my head out! Is this wrong? 

x


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## aimeetb (23 November 2010)

Also CBFan, sorry never asked, how did you find the OCD in your filly??

The physitis I assume was easily spottable (in my case anyway) as you see small lumps but how did you know to check for OCD? I am so worried, mine has the Physitis lumps but all else seems fine to me, what would make me question whether she has OCD? x


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## Tempi (23 November 2010)

Not read the replies but 5-6 cups is loads for a foal? My mare who is in foal has 3 cups in the morning with a scoop of chaff and the same in the evening and she is a good doer.

My 2 1/2yr old gets stud balancer and he has 2 cups a day with a stubbs scoop of sugar beat.... I have never had any growth problems with him, he did have a massive spurt in the summer but nothing different to any other youngster.  

I would phone Bailey's back and say you are worried your foal is growing too quickly and get them to suggest something else.


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## CBFan (23 November 2010)

aimeetb said:



			Also CBFan, sorry never asked, how did you find the OCD in your filly??

The physitis I assume was easily spottable (in my case anyway) as you see small lumps but how did you know to check for OCD? I am so worried, mine has the Physitis lumps but all else seems fine to me, what would make me question whether she has OCD? x
		
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I have a VERY good vet! He is very experienced with this sort of thing and spotted the swelling on her stifles. he said he was pretty sure she had it but as we couldn't xray at the time because we had strangles at my yard and she couldn't be taken off the yard, I had to wait a couple of months to confirm it. He was right.

If you are really concerned it is worth getting xrays done to check. stifles are the most common location for this but the hocks are also common - but swelling is easier to spot.

Just keep your eyes open for any fluidy swelling and tenderness on any joints and call your vet if you are at all worried.


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## CBFan (23 November 2010)

aimeetb said:



			I do wonder, those of you who just feed a couple of cupfulls of your chosen balancer rather than the recomended and therefore 'balanced' dose, whether your youngsters are indeed getting the correct balance of nutrients :{ ... thats all!
		
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CBFan, I know I am sorry, I always come back to you! LOL!

I am still in such a worry and turmoil about my filly! 

Your comment above was my worry when I was just feeding her hay and a vit and min lick, a stud vet said she should be given a balancer to make sure (as you said above) she is getting all the vits and mins she needs in the correct quantities.

Having spoken to Baileys and D&H I thought the lady at D & H really listedned to my problem and advised that I fed her D&H Ultimate Balancer as you only need to feed 100g per 100kg body weight so for her this would be 250 - 275g per day which I thought was much better than feeding her pounds of the BSB or 1.5 pounds of the Suregrow to get the right levels.

It is about 26% protein but with the amount being fed this would only be around 75 - 80g of protein per day which she said is close to just over a kilo of good hay! This really convinced me, also is has MSM in it for soothing her joints, digestion aids and all the vits and mins. I did ask her about just going on Surelimb but she said that the small amount of protein would be good for her during the winter and then maybe swap to the Surelimb and plain chaff in the summer when the grass is providing more. 

She is still looking a bit ribby which is what I wanted but has a lovely coat, flat back and her legs and joints are cool, she could be a bit ribbier and it would be ok but I assume this will happen as we progress through winter.

I am so worried that I am doing the wrong thing for her but just thought that with a bit extra now, when the grass comes back I have something to take away to balance out the effect of the grass.

Sorry to hi-jack but CBFan, GinnieRedwings, Maesfen, JanetGeorge all you oracles that I cant remeber your names! Please help me sort my head out! Is this wrong? 

x[/QUOTE]

This is what annoys me about nutritionists advice. Your filly has a growth disorder due to her growing too fast for her own body to keep up with. She needs no encouragement to grow any more! winter or not!

When you compare the protein content of Surelimb - 7% you will see there is a vast difference! and this is the blurb that D&H have on their website about it. I've highlighted the relevant bit for you... I really have no idea why you've been advised by them to the contrary...

"A broad spectrum vitamin and mineral supplement specifically formulated for breeding stock and horses in intense work. Surelimb provides optimal levels of vitamins, minerals and amino acids needed for maintenance of a healthy Musculo-skeletal system. Ideal for *fast growing weanlings at risk of developmental problems* or to balance the diet of horses fed straight cereals."

As for your worry about when the grass comes through... just cut out her hay! (which I am assuming you probably do anyway.. and cut down on chaff etc so that she just gets a handfull to carry her surelimb...

I add Glucosamine and MSM (gold label) to my boys feed too just for peace of mind...


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## aimeetb (23 November 2010)

Thanks CBFan, I'll keep an eye on it and ask the vet to have a look next time he is down just to be sure unless I see anything before then! x


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## Toast (23 November 2010)

Smile_and_Wave said:



			I dont like the baileys product and the woman who always advises around is talks total crap and suggest the most insane feed regimes for horses, for comparison my weanling gets one cup of spillers youngstock pellets and is gorwing steadily and well and is a good weight he also get ad lib hayledge

ive looked after one foal with a growth problem like yours he literally was fed very very little to try stunt his growth for a few months in the hope that he would grow more regularly and was weaned early, have you got the vets advice it is a condition that requires quite a lot of management
		
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Absolutely, 1000% agree with this, that very feed rep your on about is ridiculous! Cant tell you how much she scared the life out of me with my then 11 month old appy, who was fed nothing but a cup of D&H suregrow and ad lib haylage. I was told he was on the verge of OCD.. but then proceeded to tell me i should be feeding 2 mugs of their stud balancer a day plus 2 stubbs scoops of alfa a a day. Well if he didnt have OCD then he would if id even entertained feeding him what she suggested!

Then at the myerscough futurity she decided my 4 month old colt lacked muscle up front and was bum high and looked to be growing too quickly.. so i was suggested the exact same feed plan. Not only is it completely normal for a 4 month old foal to lack muscle (hes a baby for gods sake!) he wasnt even weaned!! Ridiculous!
x


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## woodlander (23 November 2010)

We are about to foal, God Willing, our 250th foal and I have to say that a book called Equine Nutrition by Frappe, has been our bible. In the early edition there was no warmblood data other than in passing but the new edition has more. Young animals do need protein and growth problems come from TOO MUCH FOOD FOR THAT ANIMAL, not from protein by itself. OCD is often seen in fast growing animals but is also caused by lack of vitamins, minerals and trace elements. We always feed by book and eye and watch for those tellatle signs of the pasterns going vertical. We do not feed for show condition and we feed a three times a day, hard feed ration of approx .5kg of oats, some sugar beet and approx 50g soya plus a supplement. in our case, Red Cell.

When our horses are sold they are very oftem x rayed and we have had, touch wood, only a very veryt few incidents of OCD. Fast growth seems to us to be a bit genetic as some seem to eat with impunity and stay level and others have to have a tougher regime.

It needs science and sense


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## Holly831 (23 November 2010)

Just an update.

Vet has called round today and is sure Rocky will be OK.

Now I really am confused as he doesn't see any problem with my feeding 

His analergy was that giving the BSB was like giving multi vits and would not cause the rapid bone growth we are seeing. His opinion is just his dam is doing him too well.

Either way I am stopping the BSB. Have phoned them today and am waiting for a call back.

Rocky is a big foal, he was born a big foal and will be larger than his dam. She is a middle weight and the sire is MW too. Rocky is a foal with 'substence' but he is in no way fat. Other than his 'upright' bits he looks like a normal healthy foal.

Rocky seems happy enough with his friend (my yearling filly) and only shouts for Mum occasionally.  Link to FB pics just because he was being so cute today - I swear he was laughing at me!

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...850.260268.567509850&pid=5588000&id=567509850


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## Sun (24 November 2010)

woodlander said:



			We are about to foal, God Willing, our 250th foal and I have to say that a book called Equine Nutrition by Frappe, has been our bible. In the early edition there was no warmblood data other than in passing but the new edition has more. Young animals do need protein and growth problems come from TOO MUCH FOOD FOR THAT ANIMAL, not from protein by itself. OCD is often seen in fast growing animals but is also caused by lack of vitamins, minerals and trace elements. We always feed by book and eye and watch for those tellatle signs of the pasterns going vertical. We do not feed for show condition and we feed a three times a day, hard feed ration of approx .5kg of oats, some sugar beet and approx 50g soya plus a supplement. in our case, Red Cell.

When our horses are sold they are very oftem x rayed and we have had, touch wood, only a very veryt few incidents of OCD. Fast growth seems to us to be a bit genetic as some seem to eat with impunity and stay level and others have to have a tougher regime.

It needs science and sense
		
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thanks for this post, I think I will buy that book, what rate do you feed red cell? do you feed it across the board, it specifically to weanlings?


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## reindeerlover (24 November 2010)

Cutting out a balancer will not stop a foal growing, they will bloomin well grow in any case! Balancer gives them the correct balance of vitamins and minerals to support their growth- they use a lot of energy to grow and without the correct balance they can have problems. 

Does anyone really think that a feed company who makes money out of their good name would purposefully make a feed that would damage horses when fed at the recommended amount?? That would be a teensy bit counter-productive. The NUTRITIONISTS who recommend the feeding guidelines are qualified and trained for the job, they aren't just some numpty who is trying to sell feed.

Protein is also not a bad thing, high levels are sometimes required and it's about the digestability and type of protein rather than the levels in any case.


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## woodlander (26 November 2010)

This is such a valuable thread. In answer to the question on Red Cell, we feed 30ml per day per horse with the hard feed. 

I agree with Farrierlover, the aims of the feed companies may be to sell feed but their science must be right. What is more challenging is the science is based around the average or the "mean". You will see then a lot of stories about horses with problems who fall outside the average and need an adjusted approach. Once you start changing the recommended intake or adding other things (we do like to practice "horse cuisine although generally it is best to stick to a single balanced solution) then problems arise.

We customise each feed for each horse and we want to be economical with over 60 horses to feed.


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## aimeetb (26 November 2010)

I think it is just that every horse is different and whislt the feed companies spend alot of money and time on research and making sure the balance is absolutely correct, I do think you are right Woodlander in that they have to then make the feed marketable to a group. They cant be one size fits all so although the feeds are mineral and vitamin wise spot on, I do think that some products are maybe meant more for the thoroughbred market that need to grow quickly as pointed out to me recently by a very knowledgeable person!

I think if you find that if you have an animal that you are raising slowly for soundness, longevity and that maybe holds condition better than a thoroughbred then other products such as the powder supplements are available to allow you to still provide the necessary as Farrierlover correctly points out.

This is what I've learnt very recently anyway! x


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## sallyf (26 November 2010)

I agree with Farrierlover on this one.
Personally i have known of more youngsters getting ocd that havnt been fed than have mainly because they have been lacking in some crucial nutrition.
please remember dogs,people etc get Rickets if there diets arnt correctly supplemented horses are no differant.
Youngsters that get slipping stifles will often grow out of this if fed some protein so they build up some muscle and strengthen up.  
OCD is multifactural and not just how fast a horse grows or what it is fed.
Horses will still grow quickly whether they are fed or not but may get OCD if they dont recieve enough nutrition to support the growth.
OCD also isnt always to do with feeding of the foal itself but can be insufficient nutrition when the mare is in foal or a mare that produces small undersized foals that then grow quickly.
A premature foal out of a mare that has recieved insufficient nutrition or a mare that hasnt done the foal well may mean that the foal lacks copper stores in its liver and this in itself can cause OCD at some stage in the foals life.
Unless you know for sure that your ground has a perfect balance of nutrition it is very difficult to second guess if the foal will have problems or is getting everything it needs.
Many areas are both copper and selenium deficient two things that are crucial in the bone development in horses.
So its alright to say dont feed your foal or youngster anything at all only hay because you wont know till it is older whether you have done any long term damage or not.
How many people on here know what there land is deficient in.


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## GinnieRedwings (26 November 2010)

sallyf said:



			How many people on here know what there land is deficient in.
		
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... which is why a broad spectrum vitamin and mineral supplement is essential, either in form of a lick or a powder additive.

I wholly disagree with the statement that a foal will grow whether or not you feed lots of hard feed. That is simply not true. A horse will EVENTUALLY grow to its genetically-programmed size whether or not it is pushed as a foal - how much of that final size it reaches by the time it is 18 months old will depend on how much rich food it is fed as a weanling. 

As an example, my foal was sent to stud with his mum when he was 3 months old. He was born very big and kept growing fast and by the time he went to stud, he was a fair bit bigger than his 2 year old half-sister by a similar sized stallion was at the same age. He stayed at stud for 9 weeks, during which, unbeknownst to me (obviously), his mum got starved sufficiently for her to lose nearly 200kg (a third of her bodyweight of 620kg). When I went to pick them up, because of the size of him before going, I expected to retrieve a monster. 

Interestingly, although he didn't look anywhere near poor, we were surprised to see he had hardly grown during that time. 2 months further down the line and having had to seriously feed Mum up, he has, at the same time, had a huge growth spurt - and that with me NOT allowing him to share Mum's feed and not giving him his own. I am now having to wean him - earlier than I like, though he is 7 months old so not hugely early in most people's view - because I refuse to take the risk to put that much strain on his joints. My vet agrees whole-heartedly. He will now be on hay and a broad spectrum supplement in a handful of Hi-fi & sugarbeet pulp to wet it down, just like his beautiful 2 year old sister, until he is in medium to hard work, when he is 5 or 6.


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## kerilli (27 November 2010)

jaypeebee said:



			Ive used Baileys stud balancer for years and years.  I feed 2 cups each day to my weanlings and have not had any problems.
		
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This. I really rate it. I feed nothing like the recommended amounts, though.


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## NeverSayNever (29 November 2010)

can someone please advise me what would be a good general purpose vit supplement for my 6 month old Sec A foal? He cant have a lick as my other horse pigs out on it and scours

I feed Baileys Low Cal Balancer to Charlie...  is it ridiculous to think of this for the foal?

what about this? or would it have to be a specific one for youngstock? or does that take me back to the original prob...
http://www.naf-uk.com/products/detail.php?id=31

or this?http://www.rideaway.co.uk/equivite-original/default.aspx


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## Equilibrium Ireland (30 November 2010)

The D&H Sure limb is the best I have found and have my warmblood/TB weanling on it with alfalfa chaff, speedie beet, and a few bits of oats and barley cooked up with the beet pulp. 

Terri


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## Equilibrium Ireland (30 November 2010)

Farrierlover said:



			Cutting out a balancer will not stop a foal growing, they will bloomin well grow in any case! Balancer gives them the correct balance of vitamins and minerals to support their growth- they use a lot of energy to grow and without the correct balance they can have problems. 

Does anyone really think that a feed company who makes money out of their good name would purposefully make a feed that would damage horses when fed at the recommended amount?? That would be a teensy bit counter-productive. The NUTRITIONISTS who recommend the feeding guidelines are qualified and trained for the job, they aren't just some numpty who is trying to sell feed.

Protein is also not a bad thing, high levels are sometimes required and it's about the digestability and type of protein rather than the levels in any case.
		
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Well yes and no. I have 3 related horses that have an intolerance to soya. When they were taken off all soya problems went away in 3 weeks. I was told by Bailey's I was crazy in the head and that I should keep all 3 on a dry lot and continue with the balancer. Amazing how when I took them off all soya they could graze like normal horses with no ill effects. 

I learned my lesson with big feed companies and the crap they spew. Funny how IR horses crop up everywhere in the last 10 years with the advent of balancers. So glad I listened to my gut instead of a feed company. My horses would have a miserable existence and huge vet bills otherwise. Their diets contain mostly forage, a few oats and barley for winter, Sure Limb, flax meal, and garlic. They look better now then they ever did on the advised 1 pd of balancer. 

Terri


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## Maesfen (30 November 2010)

GinnieRedwings said:



			As an example, my foal was sent to stud with his mum when he was 3 months old. He was born very big and kept growing fast and by the time he went to stud, he was a fair bit bigger than his 2 year old half-sister by a similar sized stallion was at the same age. He stayed at stud for 9 weeks, during which, unbeknownst to me (obviously), his mum got starved sufficiently for her to lose nearly 200kg (a third of her bodyweight of 620kg). When I went to pick them up, because of the size of him before going, I expected to retrieve a monster. 

Interestingly, although he didn't look anywhere near poor, we were surprised to see he had hardly grown during that time. 2 months further down the line and having had to seriously feed Mum up, he has, at the same time, had a huge growth spurt - and that with me NOT allowing him to share Mum's feed and not giving him his own.
		
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I think the huge growth spurt will have had a lot to do with you having to feed your mare back up so quickly.  It's bound to reflect in the quality and quantity of her milk which in turn will pass itself onto your foal even though you kept him from the feed.

I've heard of others having problems with BSB although Bea was on it for her last foal and didn't have any problems at all.  I've used Suregrow for two years now and both years they were excellent; no growth spurts, just nicely covered youngsters growing gently.  I will certainly use it again, I found it excellent.


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## GinnieRedwings (30 November 2010)

Maesfen said:



			I think the huge growth spurt will have had a lot to do with you having to feed your mare back up so quickly.  It's bound to reflect in the quality and quantity of her milk which in turn will pass itself onto your foal even though you kept him from the feed.
		
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I absolutely agree with that. 

The point I was trying to make was that there _IS_ a correlation between how much food goes down a foal, whether by way of over-rich milk or hard feed, and how fast & furiously or how steadily it grows... to respond Farrierlover's statement that "Cutting out a balancer will not stop a foal growing, they will bloomin well grow in any case!"


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## Scarey Tuesday (30 November 2010)

I was reading today with great interest whilst hiding in the office out of the snow the recent comments about Baileys Stud Balancer and felt compelled to write in.
I have used Baileys Feeds for longer than I care to remember and have never run in to any of the problems described by members of this forum.
We feed Stud Balancer to Mares/stallions/weaned foals & Youngstock with no ill effects the only time I have come across OCD is in two youngsters imported from Holland.
It sometimes appears to be a sad fact that show foals have to be too mature and over topped to win in the show ring. I took my young Warmblood foal to The British National Foal Show in Birmingham last weekend and was delighted when he not only won his class was Champion & went on to take Supreme Champion Light Horse Foal.
This foal was not born till June and as he stood in the ring he was certainly not over mature like some of the foals stood alongside him if fact I thought what a baby he looked. The judge commented on his good joints and excellent conformation and said he was a credit to us.
His mother was fed on Stud Balancer and he continues to eat Stud Balancer with no ill effects.
In my mind the aim of feeding is to support a foal to grow to its genetic potential.  It seems that a lot of people wish to stunt their animals growth by not feeding anything  youd never do that with a child! 
We have over the years taken many homebred foals &Youngsters to the Baileys Futurity Evaluations and always come away with First Premiums so we must be doing something right
Baileys Horse Feeds have invested a lot of time and money in the Futurity Scheme, for all the right reasons to bring British Breeding in line with our foreign counterparts it would be such a shame to loose their support.


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## chrissie1 (30 November 2010)

In my post at the very beginning I have mentioned both Baileys (fed to my foal) and Suregrow fed to two other mares foals, all three had growth problems which in the opinion of the remedial farrier were down to overfeeding.  This man is no novice/upstart but has spent a lifetime with horses and I respect his opinion any day of the week.

Since we moved away from Balancers there hasn't been a single incidence of developmental issues with foals here.

I do not therefore single out Baileys, and if their product suits your horses, then fine.  I do not starve my foals, they all receive adequate nutrition but are not overfed, we have done a lot of showing in the past, and done well IMO, with some very well grown foals that have caused us no problems.  The two I have here now are both descended from the same mare.  As a foal she was the scrawniest thing you ever saw, but was only beaten once, and  she was Reserve Champion at the WM Foal Show, in the days when it was at Stoneleigh, she blossomed out into a lovely horse.  When she was 3rd at Staffs County behind some well topped yearlings the judge said she was worthy of winning, 'only needed a little furnishing'. That was how she was built to be, I didn't attempt to overfeed her to round her out.


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## NeverSayNever (30 November 2010)

i spoke to baileys today and they were adamant i should be feeding my sec A foal the stud balancer....    im still not sure


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## Equilibrium Ireland (30 November 2010)

NSN,

Have you talked to your vet or an independent nutritionist? None of us can tell you what to do, just rough ideas. I for one am not a nutritionist. What works for me and my horses is just that. Just get some independent advice from professionals and see how it goes. It may be that Bailey's is whats best. 

Despite being told by them that my horses could not possibly be affected by soya and that I needed to get that nonsense out of my head, I wouldn't steer people away from them. And by the way issues are with any balancer made by any company. 

Terri


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## milo'n'molly (1 December 2010)

I was just wondering, in relation to growth related problems ( mainly OCD) how early is the damage done? I am thinking of breeding my mare next year and am very wary of growth problems due to buying a youngster with these problems in the past. My mare looks well on haylage, topspec and chaff but would this need to be cut back whilst in foal or just after when the foal is born


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## Alec Swan (1 December 2010)

Scarey Tuesday said:



			I was reading today with great interest whilst hiding in the office out of the snow the recent comments about Baileys Stud Balancer and felt compelled to write in.
I have used Baileys Feeds for longer than I care to remember and have never run in to any of the problems described by members of this forum.
We feed Stud Balancer to Mares/stallions/weaned foals & Youngstock with no ill effects the only time I have come across OCD is in two youngsters imported from Holland.
It sometimes appears to be a sad fact that show foals have to be too mature and over topped to win in the show ring. I took my young Warmblood foal to The British National Foal Show in Birmingham last weekend and was delighted when he not only won his class was Champion & went on to take Supreme Champion Light Horse Foal.
This foal was not born till June and as he stood in the ring he was certainly not over mature like some of the foals stood alongside him if fact I thought what a baby he looked. The judge commented on his good joints and excellent conformation and said he was a credit to us.
His mother was fed on Stud Balancer and he continues to eat Stud Balancer with no ill effects.
In my mind the aim of feeding is to support a foal to grow to its genetic potential.  It seems that a lot of people wish to stunt their animals growth by not feeding anything  youd never do that with a child! 
We have over the years taken many homebred foals &Youngsters to the Baileys Futurity Evaluations and always come away with First Premiums so we must be doing something right
Baileys Horse Feeds have invested a lot of time and money in the Futurity Scheme, for all the right reasons to bring British Breeding in line with our foreign counterparts it would be such a shame to loose their support.
		
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Can we assume,  from your post,  that you would support the feed rates,  suggested by the manufacturers?

Alec.


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## Dexter (1 December 2010)

I feed Suregrow but less than the recommended amounts. They get about 150gms per 100kgs body weight. they also get a handful of linseed, and they look fab. There is no way I would feed Suregrow at the recommended amounts never mind BSB. 

I really, really rate Suregrow and feed it to the adult riding horses at 100gms per 100kgs body weight as a balancer, and they all look fab as well. As good as when they were on full whack of Topspec. 

I sound like I work for D&H now  I dont, I just really rate it as a VERY economical way of feeding


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## Equilibrium Ireland (2 December 2010)

milo'n'molly said:



			I was just wondering, in relation to growth related problems ( mainly OCD) how early is the damage done? I am thinking of breeding my mare next year and am very wary of growth problems due to buying a youngster with these problems in the past. My mare looks well on haylage, topspec and chaff but would this need to be cut back whilst in foal or just after when the foal is born
		
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Everyone seems to be getting a little panicky. Here is a general rule of thumb. A mare will be feeding the baby inside first. So in general if she is looking well you shouldn't worry. Make sure she is on a vit and min supp if you don't use a balancer. Sounds like your mare doesn't need one but again this is the Internet. Any vit and min for mares will tell you when to up the rates which is usually the last trimester. You may find you need to start adding more calories then so if you don't feed straights maybe look for a stud cube. 

Whatever you do don't start cutting your mare back when the foal is born. She will be working overtime to feed it and herself. But again you will be dependent on time of year foaling. Good grass means she won't need as many calories as say an early foaling when the grass is of little value. 

I feed straights and if I need more weight I use rice bran. I have some horses that do excellent on a balancer which is why I'm not anti anything. My balacer horses are great as I add oats and alfalfa chaff to the ration and I'm good to go. Keep things as simple as possible and try not to over think. Trust me I have been there and done that. I've had sleepless nights from worrying about exact this and that. And while we are all concerned about over feeding, i have seen the exact same damage done by people who tried to tell me OCD was from feed. Once you have a system for your feeds don't go adding tons of extras as well. Again keep it simple.

And while on the subject of OCD who has had their mares x-rayed before breeding? I did. And many say it isn't hereditary but still wanted to have a decent start as I have the one mare. I use OCD stallions so try and get the odds a little better. Not saying I'm right as funny enough it doesn't seem to bother big studs. But they have better odds than I do with one.

Terri


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## Equilibrium Ireland (2 December 2010)

The above statement should read OCD free stallions. Was typing on my phone and couldn't edit right. Sorry!

Terri


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