# Lazy hunt  groom?



## nudge (14 January 2011)

My wife and I have 3 horses and hunt twice a week. Before xmas we took on a local lad who came looking for any sort of work. He didn't ride and had not worked with horses before but assured us he was a hard worker and willing to learn.
He was quick to learn and got on well with the horses.
Once the  the bad weather came things started to change, he started to say it wasn't his job to be breaking ice,carrying buckets of water down fields and de-frosting pipes.
Fair enough I thought, but two weeks ago on the morning we were hunting my wife give him our hunting boots to polish and coats to be brushed. The lad told her it wasn't his job.
She told him 'do it or go'. So he made a very poor effort at what we thought we employed him for. 
And yesterday my wife was riding my horse and asked him for a leg up, the lad told her that this to, was not his job. 
So what is his job?
He came looking for the work, and in these times work is hard to find.
We would both like to hear your thoughts or experiences.


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## Maesfen (14 January 2011)

Get rid.  Though I would say don't be so damn idle and do your own boots, that's not a groom's job, he's not a valet.


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## joeanne (14 January 2011)

Agree. Get rid, then next time you employ someone, draw up a list of what is and what isn't expected of them.
That said, if the pay is poor, then the incentive is not there to do a proper job (not saying you are paying pants!).


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## LauraWheeler (14 January 2011)

Once the the bad weather came things started to change, he started to say it wasn't his job to be breaking ice,carrying buckets of water down fields and de-frosting pipes.
		
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All part of being a groom I'm afraid. I did this for two months bloody hard work but I get paid to take care of the horses so I had to do it.




			two weeks ago on the morning we were hunting my wife give him our hunting boots to polish and coats to be brushed. The lad told her it wasn't his job.
		
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This on the other hand I never did when I was a hunt groom and I have to admit if my boss had asked me to I would have been prity annoyed. I turned the grey horses out imaculatly and the tack was spotless every hunting day. (If you had told him this was part of his job when he started that would be a diffrent matter)
That said I would get rid of him for the first point alone. His job is to care for the horses. There are alot of grooms out there looking for work well there is round me anyway I'm finding it hard to find work. If your pay is reasonable you shouldn't have much trouble finding a good hardworking groom. I agree with above though next time you take someone on maybe tell them what you want them to do. Sadly some people need it spelling out to them.


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## boxcarhorse (14 January 2011)

I suggest you sit down with him, go through a list of his responsibilities in his role as your groom.  You should also go through what his working hours are and be clear as to at beyond what point he is eligible for overtime etc.

If you're treating him reasonably and he's getting the minimum wage etc. then him attitude is poor/rude.  But if you're just looking on him as a bit of cheap labour - then you probably get what you pay for.


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## EAST KENT (14 January 2011)

Well it is what most workers do ,is`nt it..work well for a bit and then start taking the pissoire. I had one like that,just got rid of it,good riddance.They get bolshie and never improve after that ..believe me.


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## nudge (14 January 2011)

We pay him a little over minimum wage for the 20 hours a week he does.I don't really want to let him go as i feel sorry for him. It takes a lot of balls to go around knocking on doors begging for work, i've been there.
My wife is of the opinion that, if she is told to do something at work by her boss she does it, so if she wants her car washed,or boots polished twice a day everyday he should do it.
I know that sounds blunt but we could cut his hours in half and do it all ourselves and then he would be the one losing out.
I work as for a big builder and when things were quite I was often sent to wash his car so he could give me a full days pay.
I thought in this day people would glad to have some income and get out of the house.


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## MissySmythe (14 January 2011)

To be fair he didn't have the experience BUT, get it over with, he doesn't cut the mustard, end of. 
Dear friend of mine employed a bloke in such circs: incompetant so fired him (kindly), but he was actually a murderer.............................


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## gemin1eye (14 January 2011)

I wouldn't have cleaned your boots either, if he's being emplyed as a groom he's there to look after your horses not you. If your wife is giving him the attitude of "do it or go" its not surprising he's not doing his best. Does he get threatened with that often?


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## Dogstar (14 January 2011)

I was a hunt groom, many moons ago when I was young. As well as exercising the horses, I happily; levered off the boss's hunting boots for him, helped him scrape up very dead sheep, fed the pigs, mowed the lawn and sprayed the tree plantation amongst other unspecified duties! I did so willingly as I was easy-going and we had a very good relationship. It sounds as though your working relationship has broken down for whatever reason. He does sound lazy but maybe he does feel resentful. Shame.


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## Lurky McLurker (14 January 2011)

I'm the kind of person who will do whatever my boss asks me to, even if it's not strictly related to the work I'm meant to be doing, because I think I'd rather be getting paid to do something that's not my job than refuse to do it and get fewer hours.  I am a student who only ever has small part time jobs though - if it was something I was doing for a career, I might feel differently.  In his position, I'd probably just get on with it and be pleased because more hours = more money, although I would be a bit surprised if I was working as a groom and my boss expected me to clean their boots.


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## Orangehorse (14 January 2011)

OK, you don't want him to go, but did you sit down and give him a job description before he started?

I think you need to draw up a job description and then have a sit down with him.  If you want him to clean your boots and coats then write it down!  Although I think it is probably a bit much if he has to turn out the horses as well.  Then listen to his point of view and what he sees is job is and what it involves.  You can then point out that making sure that they get water in the winter is horse care!

You need to cover helping out with odd jobs in the summer like fencing and painting the stables, etc.  And cleaning out the tack room, etc.


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## Dexter (14 January 2011)

nudge said:



			We pay him a little over minimum wage for the 20 hours a week he does.I don't really want to let him go as i feel sorry for him. It takes a lot of balls to go around knocking on doors begging for work, i've been there.
My wife is of the opinion that, if she is told to do something at work by her boss she does it, so if she wants her car washed,or boots polished twice a day everyday he should do it.
I know that sounds blunt but we could cut his hours in half and do it all ourselves and then he would be the one losing out.
I work as for a big builder and when things were quite I was often sent to wash his car so he could give me a full days pay.
I thought in this day people would glad to have some income and get out of the house.
		
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I earn a fair wack over minimum wage, however my boss asks me to do thing that I don't want to do, or are a bit demeaning on a regular basis. We generally have a bit of a discussion and then I do what he is asking, He is after all my boss! And having worked with horses previously, I wouldn't even have bothered with the discussion bit, and would have just cracked on. 

Given the circumstances I'd be having a bit of a chat about how hes doing really well, but not being horsey theres things hes not doing so well on and they are x, y and z. And how if he cant do them, as sorry as you will be to let him go, you wont have any option,as a 'horsey' member of staff would do them...


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## Llewellyn (15 January 2011)

I have worked as a groom and did a lot not specified by my job description. I did boots and jackets because I wanted my employers to look smart as I have pride in my work and there is no point slogging my guts out getting horses fit, schooled, polished and plaited, tack clean and a rider and lorry looking scruffy.

On a side note getting a job is impossible at the moment or they are solely commission with no base pay.  Housewife it is then.


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## Ditchjumper2 (15 January 2011)

Lurky McLurker said:



			I'm the kind of person who will do whatever my boss asks me to, even if it's not strictly related to the work I'm meant to be doing, because I think I'd rather be getting paid to do something that's not my job than refuse to do it and get fewer hours.  I am a student who only ever has small part time jobs though - if it was something I was doing for a career, I might feel differently.  In his position, I'd probably just get on with it and be pleased because more hours = more money, although I would be a bit surprised if I was working as a groom and my boss expected me to clean their boots.
		
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I agree. I just think the same more hourse equals more money. As long as safe then so what!!!


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## mini-eventer (15 January 2011)

I am again one of those who will do anything with in reason.

I am a groom/instructor however the other day I hoovered my bosses house. I was getting paid and it was a welcome relief from the snow!!!!

If they asked me to polish there boots when they went competing I would be more than willing and I would also make sure that they were the cleanist they had ever seen them!!

I take pride in my work what ever I get asked to do


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## littlemisslauren (15 January 2011)

I work as a groom on a large yard and would not polish anyones boots as part of my work there. I would however give anyone a leg up, I do everything I can to protect the safety of riders as well as horses.

When I was a competition groom my job was to make sure the horses were in top condition inc tack. Not boots / jackets. I take pride in my job but there weren't enough hours in the day to do everything myself.


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## Mickeymoo (15 January 2011)

If someone's paying me I will do what they ask as long as its legal and doesn't breach health & safety.

A few years ago I worked in the Marketing dept of a small company.  They made space in the warehouse for storage for my stuff.  The director asked me to go and sweep the floor, to which I did.  The rest of the office were disgusted that I had done it. I didn't see the problem.


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## Natch (15 January 2011)

Is he saying its not his job because the tasks he is already doing is already taking him 20 hours (and therefore may not be getting paid to do any extra)? just a thought.

Have a chat with him - explain that defrosting things IS all part and parcel of his job, and that uless there is a very good reason why he can't do these things, he either does it or you'll have to cut down his hours to reflect only the jobs he is willing to do.


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## nudge (16 January 2011)

Sitting down with him and going through what jobs we want him to do seems like a good idea, but I don't think it will help. Im beginning to think his problem is taking orders from a 30 year old women.( I sometimes struggle what that myself ).If I ask him to do something he usually does it but my wife gets this attitude from him.
This morning before we left to go hunting, my wife was on the phone in the car, she asked him to get her whip and spurs from the tack room.He just said something under his breath and walked off.Everything was done at this stage and he was just floating around killing time.When he came back she asked for a hand putting on the spurs, as he done it he just kept talking under his breath again.
Anyway Monday is D, and I think after our chat we could be looking for somebody else.


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## SusieT (16 January 2011)

tbh sounds like your wife may be treating him poorly...
I wouldn't expect in the normal course of theday to be getting constant requests to do things like go fetch and carry??? from a person who is on the phone... Employer or not..
And giving him extra jobs on a hunting morning? Surely not really fair as those are fairly time consuming jobs done properly if the items are dirty..
Sounds like your wife is treating him like he's at her beck and call and fair enough, she may not be but that's the impression I'm getting. And fair enough, an employee should be willing to be flexible but if he's trying to get his set work done, it's probably quite frustrating?


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## EAST KENT (16 January 2011)

nudge said:



			Sitting down with him and going through what jobs we want him to do seems like a good idea, but I don't think it will help. Im beginning to think his problem is taking orders from a 30 year old women.( I sometimes struggle what that myself ).If I ask him to do something he usually does it but my wife gets this attitude from him.
This morning before we left to go hunting, my wife was on the phone in the car, she asked him to get her whip and spurs from the tack room.He just said something under his breath and walked off.Everything was done at this stage and he was just floating around killing time.When he came back she asked for a hand putting on the spurs, as he done it he just kept talking under his breath again.
Anyway Monday is D, and I think after our chat we could be looking for somebody else.
		
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Would`nt bother with any little talks myself,muttering under his breathe is a bad case of rudeness and attitude. It is so simple ,is`nt it,you pay...he does..and if he does`nt or gets arsey  ,you don`t pay any more and he evaporates.


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## MistletoeMegan (16 January 2011)

Your wife is possibly getting attitude from him because it sounds like she's treating him like a skivvy. He's a groom, not a PA, and if it wasn't made explicitly clear to him before he took the job that it would involve looking after her as well as the horses then I can understand him being resentful - afterall, flexibility in a job is not simply the employee flexing to meet the needs of the employer.

Whilst he shouldn't be rude, muttering under his breath etc it seems rather daft to just sack him without talking things through - a conversation about what each side expects the job to involve, how he'd like things to progress (eg being told in advance what his duties on a hunting morning are) is really not going to harm the situation but could improve it drastically and given that all sides involved are adults it shouldn't be a great issue.


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## Irishlife (16 January 2011)

It rather depends on how your wife is requesting him to do these additional tasks. If it is in a friendly reasonable manner, most employee's would not object to tasks beyond the scope of the job. However, your wife seems to be treating him with a "certain attitude" and this is part of your problem. He probably did not realise how hard working with horses is let alone their demanding owners.  Also he is not a professional "hunt groom" so would not be expected to know what to do.  I think a word with your wife and then a word with him.

So saying my PA back in the day was never asked to do any horse related jobs anymore than the yard staff were asked to arrange my diary.


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## sprite1978 (16 January 2011)

If I understand correctly, the guy came looking for any work. He didnt come as an experienced groom specifically looking for a grooms job. He should be glad he`s got the work and do as he`s asked. So long as its nothing illegal or degrading!

As for repeatedly saying "thats not my job". It shows a complete lack of respect. 

Tell him whats expected of him, treat him well, pay him fairly, and if it carries on, SACK HIM.


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## Allover (16 January 2011)

Is he an Austrian by any chance, it seems they love that phrase over here!!!


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## Maesfen (16 January 2011)

nudge said:



			This morning before we left to go hunting, my wife was on the phone in the car, she asked him to get her whip and spurs from the tack room.He just said something under his breath and walked off.Everything was done at this stage and he was just floating around killing time.When he came back she asked for a hand putting on the spurs, as he done it he just kept talking under his breath again.
Anyway Monday is D, and I think after our chat we could be looking for somebody else.
		
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This has made me so suspicious that this is a wind up or your wife has seriously flawed personnel skills and is seriously an idle arrogant charmer; no wonder he doesn't want to do anything for her.


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## tootsietoo (16 January 2011)

OK, I've never had someone to do the horses for me, but I have worked as a groom and I think I'd be a bit annoyed if I was running backwards and forwards fetching an employer's gear whenever they shouted.  If you want him to get your gear ready, then specify that at the beginning, then he can factor it in to his plan for the day before a hunting morning and get everything loaded up in the lorry, boots clean with spurs already on etc.

As everyone else has said, I would suggest having a proper think about job spec, write it down, talk to him about it and then try not to interfere with his day to day work.

ETA. Maesfen, I thought the OP might have been a wind up.  I felt that you did sound a bit 19th century rather than 21st Nudge!


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## Maesfen (16 January 2011)

tootsietoo said:



			ETA. Maesfen, I thought the OP might have been a wind up.  I felt that you did sound a bit 19th century rather than 21st Nudge!
		
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Lol, one must keep up standards you know! 

Seriously, without bragging just stating a point, but I've worked for some of the big names in hunting and not one, has ever spoken to me like that, ever even when I was learning the job.  They've all been decent, nice people that treat you as people and not servants.  I find her actions/comments, if they are true, extraordinarily rude and arrogant, no wonder the lad is as he is and doesn't know if he's coming or going.
Still, you know what they say, money doesn't make manners and old money is better than new money any day; grooms tend to find that out a lot better and quicker than some. 

OP, I apologise if you find those comments rude, I'm just stating facts from what you have told us.


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## paddy (16 January 2011)

I wonder whether it's a generational thing - I must admit to finding a few of the comments on this thread a tad 'jobsworth'.  

I'm a partner in a City law firm.  However, if a piece of paper needs copying or a document needs binding and there's no-one there to do it or it's quicker to do it myself, I wouldn't throw a strop and say 'it's not my job' until a passing PA or reprographics engineer took pity on me.  Sounds rather like 'the computer says no'.  I've even been known to pour the tea in a meeting!


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## Maesfen (16 January 2011)

I think, by the nature of the job, if you're a hunt groom or any kind of groom, you do everything involved with looking after the horses whatever that is and whenever it needs doing.  If you're asked to do anything different that is not normally in your remit, surely a few manners from the person asking wouldn't go amiss?

I quite agree that bosses shouldn't ask you to do something they wouldn't be happy to do themrselves and many horsey bosses muck in and out with you which usually leads to a good working relationship as horses are such great levellers and teach you to have a sense of humour.

In my time as a groom I've cleaned cars, mowed the lawn, fetched the children from school, babysat, decorated, dog walked, cleaned boots, shopped and a myriad of other things; I never minded or been paid extra (except for the baby sitting) because I was asked nicely but I've never been asked to put someone's spurs on, that is taking the proverbial.


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## Steeleydan (16 January 2011)

TBH your wife sounds like she treats this lad as somthing she has scraped off the bottom of her shoe. Personally you only have 3 horses you could do them yourselves without a groom, 90% of the people on this forum work full time and still manage to do their own horses, sounds to me like "having a groom" is a bit of a status thing to you. And beleive you me if you sack him, grooms talk you will soon get a reputation of not been nice to work for.
I too have been a groom and lived and worked in hunt service, and if some one had given me their boots  and coat to clean on the morning of hunting, when there is enough to do I would of told you to do it your self, your boots and coat should of been done as soon as you got home from the last time you hunted NOT on the morning you are going hunting. I think thats sloppyness on your part.
And as for getting him to put her spurs on you are taking the piss I presume.
If he is spoken too correctly Iam sure he would accomadate your every need, but it sounds like you are both arrogant, and treat him badly, just remember he is a human being, not a dog, he has feelings too, and you dont own him. Slavery was fazed out years ago.


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## fizzer (16 January 2011)

Its often the case of," not whats said but, the way it is said".


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## Alec Swan (16 January 2011)

This thread does rather remind me of the gentleman who advertised for a Handy Man.

A local worthy applied,  and turned up for his interview.  What ever question was put to him,  he came back with a negative response.  Can you drive?  NO,  could you make up the boilers and the fires?  NO,  could you clean shoes?  NO,  could you help in the garden?  NO......  That sort of thing.

Exasperated,  the wannabe employer asked,  "Well,  what's handy about you"?

"I only live 'round the corner",  came the reply.

Alec.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (16 January 2011)

nudge said:



			My wife and I have 3 horses and hunt twice a week. Before xmas we took on a local lad who came looking for any sort of work. He didn't ride and had not worked with horses before but assured us he was a hard worker and willing to learn.
He was quick to learn and got on well with the horses.
Once the  the bad weather came things started to change, he started to say it wasn't his job to be breaking ice,carrying buckets of water down fields and de-frosting pipes.
Fair enough I thought, but two weeks ago on the morning we were hunting my wife give him our hunting boots to polish and coats to be brushed. The lad told her it wasn't his job.
She told him 'do it or go'. So he made a very poor effort at what we thought we employed him for. 
And yesterday my wife was riding my horse and asked him for a leg up, the lad told her that this to, was not his job. 
So what is his job?


His job is to obey your every command, lick your feet and tug his forelock, all for the princely sum of £6.00 per hour.  Your wifes not related to Hyancith Bucket, by chance?
		
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## houndsplease (16 January 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Get rid.  Though I would say don't be so damn idle and do your own boots, that's not a groom's job, he's not a valet.
		
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why is it not his job he is being paid to do it so therefore the lazy T@#t should do it. lets face it he aint doing anything else. i wouldnt dream of turning round to my employer. get shut of him, you will find someone better there are alot of people needing money at the moment and would be grateful of anything to earn sme money.


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## Alec Swan (16 January 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Get rid.  Though I would say don't be so damn idle and do your own boots, that's not a groom's job, he's not a valet.
		
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Exactly.  Attending to our own personal attire and our appearance,  would be our own responsibility.  For everything else,  then do as I'm asking,  or find a job with those who will allow you to please yourself,  as to what work you actually do.

Alec.


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## Allover (16 January 2011)

houndsplease said:



			why is it not his job he is being paid to do it so therefore the lazy T@#t should do it. lets face it he aint doing anything else. i wouldnt dream of turning round to my employer. get shut of him, you will find someone better there are alot of people needing money at the moment and would be grateful of anything to earn sme money.
		
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So what you are saying is that for 6 quid an hour you can get someone desperate for work to do whatever you ask of them, speak to them how ever you like and if they dont like it they can ******* off because there is always another desperate for work person out there? Nice attitude! 

This groom will have no contract, no terms of employment and no security in his role ( i am presuming here he is working Cash in Hand?). Does the OP have adequate insurance to cover if this guy gets injured while working for him, i would presume not.


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## EAST KENT (16 January 2011)

Allover said:



			So what you are saying is that for 6 quid an hour you can get someone desperate for work to do whatever you ask of them, speak to them how ever you like and if they dont like it they can ******* off because there is always another desperate for work person out there? Nice attitude! 

This groom will have no contract, no terms of employment and no security in his role ( i am presuming here he is working Cash in Hand?). Does the OP have adequate insurance to cover if this guy gets injured while working for him, i would presume not.
		
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   And what`s the odds he`s on unemployment a well? The princely sum of £120 a week does`nt add up to a living wage.They`re all at it now


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## Allover (16 January 2011)

I´d say its even money


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## LauraWheeler (17 January 2011)

Allover said:



			So what you are saying is that for 6 quid an hour you can get someone desperate for work to do whatever you ask of them, speak to them how ever you like and if they dont like it they can ******* off because there is always another desperate for work person out there? Nice attitude! 

This groom will have no contract, no terms of employment and no security in his role ( i am presuming here he is working Cash in Hand?). Does the OP have adequate insurance to cover if this guy gets injured while working for him, i would presume not.
		
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Sadly this is the attitude many employers have twords there grooms. I come up against it all the time. I'm prity easy going and if I had been paid for all the unpaid overtime i've done over the years i'd be a very rich woman by now. Many of my jobs have been live in and i've basicly been on call 24/7 for £100 w/k and a grotty place to live and i'm ment to have been eturnaly greatful.
There arn't many other profetions that would get away with treating employees the way the horse world does. Grooming is deff a job you do for the love and not the money. But it is nice to feel appreceated once in a while. It's a bloody hard job sometimes but quite a few bosses forget that.


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## Allover (17 January 2011)

LauraWheeler said:



			Sadly this is the attitude many employers have twords there grooms. I come up against it all the time. I'm prity easy going and if I had been paid for all the unpaid overtime i've done over the years i'd be a very rich woman by now. Many of my jobs have been live in and i've basicly been on call 24/7 for £100 w/k and a grotty place to live and i'm ment to have been eturnaly greatful.
There arn't many other profetions that would get away with treating employees the way the horse world does. Grooming is deff a job you do for the love and not the money. But it is nice to feel appreceated once in a while. It's a bloody hard job sometimes but quite a few bosses forget that.
		
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Hear hear  ( though my current boss expects me to be in two places at once and work a 6 and a half day week gave me an excellent bonus and a lovely dress for xmas )


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## spotty_pony (17 January 2011)

I'm afraid 'that's not my job' it's really a good enough answer because you are his boss and if you are asking him to do something, e.g break the ice on the water troughs he should do it, not jut because you told him to but for the love of the horses too - although you say he doesn't know much about horses. 

I am a self employed groom/rider and I do everything I'm asked to do (even babysitting!) I'm lucky in the fact that my boss treats me and pays me really well and I really enjoy my job. I have found that if you are treated properly, you will do just about anything for your boss. I have worked at yards in the past who have taken advantage of me and basically worked me like a slave, and I know I resented doing anything they asked me to do because they didn't have any respect for me.

It sounds like you are treating him well and paying him well though, so I'm afraid I agree with the others who say 'give him the boot.'


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## Angelbones (17 January 2011)

Quite honestly over the years I've done everything my bosses have asked me, plus extras I wasn't asked to do but which made everyone's day go smoothly and eased my boss's stressful lifestyle. 

However, since employing people myself, I've found that attitudes have changed and people are much less willing to do things they consider to 'not be part of my job'. I always say to my employees at the yard that I will find them the hours and pay them well for it as long as they don't mind what they do (obviously with no intention of taking the mickey) so that if we all end up gardening as we've got a charity open day, or manning a tack stall for the hunt to raise funds, or painting fencing, everyone has signed up for it when they took the job. One girl who needs the hours for her tax credit makes up her yard hours doing my mum's ironing but as said, she signed up for it from the start.

Your chap sounds sour now and I doubt he will bounce back. You could try doing a job description for him and seeing if this focuses him, but I think its probably best to let him go. I'm sure you'll be able to get someone else for what sounds like on the surface to be a nice job - times are hard and lots of people now can't afford to get help with their horses making competition for those jobs even stronger.


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## Amymay (18 January 2011)

but two weeks ago on the morning we were hunting my wife give him our hunting boots to polish and coats to be brushed. The lad told her it wasn't his job.
		
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Yep, I'd probably tell you to do one too.

You haven't employed a hunt groom - but a person to 'do' your horses, not you.


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