# Romanian dogs



## blackcob (24 November 2013)

There seems to have been a huge increase in rescues coming in from abroad recently. I've seen a couple through work in the last few months but suddenly everyone seems to have one, four more Romanian dogs have landed with people from agility club just this week. 

There seems to be a lot of what I'd term Facebook fluffy bunny hugging associated with them, all very emotional, lots of 'fReE aNd SAFE nOw hun praying for our rommie dogs xxx' type stuff.  

I'm not quite sure what I think. On one hand I wouldn't begrudge any dog the chance of a safe home, on the other I think of the dogs currently sitting in our local pound, some of whom have been there for a very long time, and wonder about the costs, risks and ethical probems in bringing in dogs from abroad. 

One of the ones I met IMO should have been PTS because of his health issues but instead the dog was held up as an example of a successful rescue and generated a huge amount of interest and support for the organisation involved. 

Thoughts?


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## twiggy2 (24 November 2013)

I worry about the increased risk of disease coming over with these dogs from dubious foreign rescues, also am aware that there is some belief that some dogs are being sold into rescue out there so a degree of puppy farming is thought to be surfacing. my biggest issue with it though is there are soooo many unwanted dogs in this country being PTS why on earth does anyone want to be importing and putting the dogs through the whole ordeal that that involves.


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## TrasaM (24 November 2013)

I was in Cyprus recently and the rescues there have a steady stream of dogs and cats being shipped to the UK and Europe. Given the amount of dogs in the rescues here I don't understand where they all go to.


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## Bosworth (24 November 2013)

I have real concerns about this, there are so many many dogs in this country that need homes. And people object to paying £150ish for a rescue, yet they must surely be paying more for a Romanian rescue dog. I would far far rather the money raised to help the issue abroad actually created a good welfare system over there to PTS injured or ill dogs and neuter all others, to prevent an increase in unwanted dogs. I hate the fact that people think PTS is unfair. But actually there are far worse things in life than death.


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## Clodagh (25 November 2013)

People will say that all there is in the rescues over here are staffs, whereas they can get a cute and fluffy Romanian dog. Apparently as said Romanian dog is fluffy it will be perfectly behaved in the house and safe around children whereas the staff from England will not be. I think it should be illegal to import dogs, like tightening up the tripartrate agreement for horses the same should be done for dogs.


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## Copperpot (25 November 2013)

I feel for any dog in a horrible situation but we have enough unwanted dogs here without binging in more from abroad. I also don't know how strict the behaviour tests are etc. 

My friends OH bought a puppy back from Iraq recently. Cost him £4,000 in transport and quarantine fees plus when it finally came home another £2,000 in training as it's dog aggressive. 

How many rescue dogs here could be helped with £6,000???


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## moppett (25 November 2013)

It really bugs me the number of facebook posts about 'saving poor damaged romanian/spanish/greek dogs', new owners patting themselves on the back for their good work in saving a doggy soul. A dog in need is a dog in need - there are so many dogs in UK rehoming centres - some from equally shocking circumstances.
That being said -stories of spanish greyhounds and other hunting dogs in spain does truly shock me, dogs with broken legs on the side of the road etc and I feel so sad for any dog in that situation. But I'm a realist and firmly believe that so many of these dogs, in so much pain physically and behaviourally scarred by abuse would be better of being PTS. 
I was shocked to see some of the rescue centres in spain, wild dogs piled high - in the UK they'd be closed down as a welfare case. - Just because you're feeding the dogs doesn't mean you're their salvation.
I know I have 3 spanish rescues, but I was working out there when I literally stumbled across them and decided I was quite fond of the needy lot. It was just chance and in the future I would never think about rehoming a dog from abroad - there are too many dogs in the UK needing homes!
I dont think the trafficking of European dogs into UK centres should be allowed - rather it should be limited to those dogs who have a confirmed home to go to.


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## s4sugar (25 November 2013)

The behavior test are minimal. 
They are not lead trained and the groups bringing them in rarely have the facilities to provide back up even though they claim to offer back up for life.
Someone I know is having one - had already signed up  before I found out - as she doesn't meet the criteria for adopting from a local rescue and hasn't gone to breed rescue as she doesn't care what sort of dog as long as it isn't tiny. Photos posted of changes she's had to make to pass a homecheck filled me with despair. Nylon mesh over a large pond (that has sloping sides) makes it much more dangerous.

It is a fluuffy bunny scheme and some are making money without helping the situation where the dogs are from. It does appear that some of the dogs are being deliberately bred to ship here or to the Netherlands.

Too many put down here as it is. How many more situations like this are going to happen ? - http://hope-rescue.proboards.com/thread/32419/milo-3-year-old-crossbreed


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## JFTDWS (25 November 2013)

Bosworth said:



			I have real concerns about this, there are so many many dogs in this country that need homes. And people object to paying £150ish for a rescue, yet they must surely be paying more for a Romanian rescue dog.
		
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Not necessarily - transport and passport [can] come to about £150 over there.

I'm not comfortable with a lot of the views of the people involved in it.  I think a number of the dogs shipped over should have been euthanased for behavioural or health reasons and the funds used either to bring them over and treat them would be better spent euthanasing other hopeless cases over there.  People are generally reluctant to donate money towards a cull, though, and given that the government over there isn't really interested in sorting the situation out humanely, the options are limited.  I also think some of the people involved are very naive about the owners they're shipping too - some seem highly unsuitable from what I've seen.

However, if people choose to take a dog from there, I don't think there's anything wrong with it.


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## moppett (25 November 2013)

I volunteered to do a home check on behalf of a rescue centre that has a number of dogs from spain. The couple I met were lovely, retired, and previously had a quiet sedate labrador that had recently passed away in old age and had the potential to offer a dog a very nice home (lovely garden, both keen walkers) and wanted a spanish dog because they'd seen on facebook how badly treated they are and wanted to do something good.
This couple had no sighthound experience, no experience with rescue dogs, nervous dogs, dogs with any kind of behavioural problem and stated they would not feel comfortable with a timid dog or untrained dog.
I told the rescue centre quite frankly I didn't feel this couple could deal with any of the rescue dogs they had on their rehoming books no matter how nice a home they could offer. So many rescue dogs, especially dogs that have been strays, dumped etc. will present with training issues that make them not suitable for everyone!


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## TrasaM (25 November 2013)

http://www.cypruspridehouse.com/

This is just one of the rescue operations in Cyprus. They seem to be doing really good work. But can't help thinking they'd be more effective organising a spay/neuter annual round up to reduce the number of breeding animals.


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## misterjinglejay (25 November 2013)

I absolutely agree; putting an already traumatised dog through the long journey cannot be a good thing either. 

Dogs already here need homes, why bring in more? Especially when these organisations are not in a position to offer back up, or even basic training, or temperament checks.


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## Hairy Old Cob (25 November 2013)

This just makes me so angry this Country is just becoming a Dustbin, of course  I feel for the dogs but the dogs need to be neutered and if need be put down in their Country of origin not transported across Europe, to be rehomed their are already too many unwanted dogs in this Country and having had rescue dogs in the past which arrived with my Ex wife 2-3 of them would have been better put down as they were neurotic.


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## blackcob (25 November 2013)

JFTD said:



			I also think some of the people involved are very naive about the owners they're shipping too - some seem highly unsuitable from what I've seen.
		
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I obviously can't go into specifics but yes, I have seen how these dogs can end up in a completely unsuitable home. And I mean    legal intervention type home. I have zero faith in their homechecking systems as a result!


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## CorvusCorax (26 November 2013)

If I was a street dog, I'd expect being caught, put in a kennel, transported across Europe in a car and a boat, then expected to fit into a household with lots of people, noise, smells and being expected to walk on a lead and behave like a pet dog when I got to my final destination, would be quite traumatic. But hey, it would give the humans doing it 'for me' a warm, fuzzy feeling inside knowing that they had 'saved' me, and that's what's important.
Sorry if that sounds harsh but they more I see of *some* sorts of rescue (not just related to dogs) the more I am convinced that it's about the human ego, not the animals themselves.
I too would prefer that monies are spent on education, neutering and humane destruction rather than bringing already traumatised dogs across Europe.

The amount of these dogs who also seem to do runners while in transit or when they arrive at 'home' is also a big worry.

Animal cruelty is not confined to farflung lands. Dogs have been hanged, stabbed, had their ears cut off, been drowned, dragged by moving vehicles and set on fire, in these islands. You can get a traumatised dog out of the pound down the road for around £100.

I disagree about banning the import of dogs full stop though. Some breeds would be in a very sorry state without imported stock and our police and service dog stock would be a lot poorer.


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## s4sugar (26 November 2013)

Going back to the earlier rules for pets passport would be a better option -six months before they can enter the UK.


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## Booboos (26 November 2013)

Imported rescues are one of my bug bears for a number of reasons:

The whole idea does nothing for animal welfare in the originating country. If anything it will lead to dodgy schemes where locals breed more to sell on as rescue dogs. What countries like Greece need are neutering and education programmes. These are not issues that can be solved by rehoming some dogs.

Many of the rescues seem a bit amateurish even if well meaning. The descriptions of the dogs are emotionally appealing but with little actual, practical information about the dogs which makes me wonder if they are properly assessed. The dogs themselves are likely to have serious behavioural issues (they are usually feral or abandonned or removed from their mother very early on, or abused) but it is not clear that the charity provides proper backup and support (behaviourists, option to return the dogs).


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## TrasaM (26 November 2013)

I really surprised myself at my reaction to seeing so many rescue cats and kittens with eye disease missing eye/ eyes limbs or seriously ill. Surely these would be far better being put out of their misery?  I'd Never though I'd feel that way but the seemingly overwhelming number of strays means that the line must be drawn somewhere and focusing on the fit healthy one seemed sensible.


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## vieshot (26 November 2013)

I think it's easy to say we have enough dogs here, our rescues are full, it's not solving the route cause etc....however, I know if I were there and I saw the suffering first hand I wouldnt be able to just walk away.


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## james ensor (26 November 2013)

We have now rescued five dogs from the Cape Verde islands and helped with another.  Two are with us in London, two in Germany, another will join a friend in London soon and the sixth, whom we helped, is in Scotland.

Why were they rescued? Because they came up to us whilst we were staying in the Cape Verde islands and were very friendly. One just came up and licked me: another came from behind and chewed my hand. The most recent, dumped by a Spaniard, was lying outside the gates of any house with a family with children, hoping to be adopted.

The first rescued dog was about to be poisoned with stryccnine. His two friends were killed. So we took him into our house for three days until the baited meat laid indiscriminately around had been removed along with the corpses. 

When we tried to find his owner - he was wearing a collar - we were unable to do so.  So we acquired a dog that we had not intended or wished to do. Of course, it was far more complicated and much more expensive to bring a dog back to the UK or Germany, than to fetch one from Battersea. 

But these dogs had a miserable life, in the open air, without food and with very limited access to water.  Many people, including Europeans hurl stones at them and hit them with sticks: packs of children scream at them. So yes they can develop behaviourial problems, which take a long time to cure.

In our case, rescuing dogs from abroad, was not an alternative to having a dog from Battersea, which many of our friends and acquantainces have done. It was far from simple.  But we have saved some beautiful and generally well-behaved dogs from a horrible fate.

Yes , of course, we tried to find local owners, as our lifestyle is poorly suited to looking after dogs. But it is nigh impossible unless you have found a black puppy.  We have also rescued four starving puppies who were being confronted by a German with a large kitchen knife. We have rehoused them in the Cape Verdes, with local people.  But there are no shelters, there is no protection for strays, there are no kennels: the attitudes of some Europeans towards animals is utterly savage: a cat that had recently given birth was kicked and her newborn kittens taken away in full view of arriving guests at one of the large Spanish hotels in the islands. All were killed including the mother.

German vets travel out twice yearly to neuter 30 dogs and cats a day. But they are only slowly making an impact on the stray and semi-stray population.
I will not write about the fate of horses.

You can see what I mean on www.capeverdeinfo.org.uk/cape_verde_pets.htm


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## Jingleballs (26 November 2013)

Personally, I think all dogs deserve to be rescued but I agree, charities who bring dogs into the UK for rehoming are perhaps worsening the situation.

I also agree that for many, the descriptions of the dogs are very emotive rather than being factual - I'd also challenge how well they vet they homes based on the seemingly "fluffier" approach they sometimes take.

I don't doubt their intentions are good and some dogs have found wonderful homes but this is at greater expense and also at the expense of other dogs originally from the UK to are still awaiting new homes.


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## blackcob (26 November 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			The amount of these dogs who also seem to do runners while in transit or when they arrive at 'home' is also a big worry.
		
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Funny you should post that, just last night one of the agility bods' dogs escaped. Thankfully looks like they got it back this morning having spent a night on the streets in a busy built-up area (and posting endlessly about it on FB ). 

90+ dogs in our local pound today, will no doubt go over 100 by the weekend. £80 each. Equal mix of super traumatised, injured, abused, and fabulous family pets with no issues. Admittedly 80% staffies but also collies, JRTs, mastiffs, pointy dogs and crosses thereof.


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## james ensor (26 November 2013)

I can assure you that it is extremely difficult to find a good home for any dog in the UK, unless it is a puppy from a popular breed. However, in much of southern Europe and Africa, it is virtually impossible.

All our rescued dogs from overseas were additional rather than alternative to UK dogs.  And they have been rescued from far worse circumstances. Unfortunately, the really difficult situation faced by UK dogs, at least in London, is for the mature pit-bull-Mastiff crosses which are favoured as guard/attack dogs by certain communities.  Naturally many dog lovers are nervous of taking on such a dog, who might well have been in a cruel home, before liberation.


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## CorvusCorax (26 November 2013)

I've just had a look at the dogs in the pound local to me, there's a Rott, a Patterdale, two scruffy terrier x, a collie x lab, a Shih-Tzu and a Golden retriever.


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## AengusOg (26 November 2013)

james ensor said:



			Unfortunately, the really difficult situation faced by UK dogs, at least in London, is for the mature pit-bull-Mastiff crosses which are favoured as guard/attack dogs by certain communities.  Naturally many dog lovers are nervous of taking on such a dog, who might well have been in a cruel home, before liberation.
		
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These dogs should not be available for rehoming, at all. Many of them will be smouldering powder kegs, and there is no way of knowing which of them will cause problems in the future for some well-meaning but unsuitable 'rescuers'.

It's impossible, without DNA information, to know the exact breeding of these 'bull type' dogs which finding themselves in dog pounds and rescue centres with ever-increasing regularity. Many of them will have been bred for strength of character and aggressive potential, by idiots, and selected on that basis for further breeding, so that the resultant generations just become a mish-mash of dogs with dodgy temperaments. That, coupled with a history of mis-management, strength of bite, oblivion to pain, and the tendency to take delight in ragging things, makes them potentially very dangerous indeed.

Why would anyone think such dogs would make family pets.

It's unfortunate for the individuals, but the only way to reduce the number of serious injuries and death (mainly to children) from these dogs is to destroy them as they are taken off the streets.

Any dog which has been living a feral existence, such as those in Romania, will be more challenging, in terms of rehoming, than would, say, a dog which has found itself homeless through misfortune, but which had previously been well looked after and socialised. The Romanian dogs have been living in packs; most of them will have had some sort of negative interactions with humans, and they will require specific management to help them adapt to another way of life. 

Some of the fluffy among us are so emotionally driven that they seem to think a rescued dog will be a doddle to look after simply because it has been rescued from what they perceive as a miserable existence. It's not that simple, I'm afraid.

I think the rescue centres in Britain should have a PTS policy on all dogs with bull terrier influenced breeding, and also on any dogs which fail to find a home within four weeks of being 'pounded', and it should be against the law to 'rescue' dogs from outwith the country.


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## puppystitch (26 November 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			I've just had a look at the dogs in the pound local to me, there's a Rott, a Patterdale, two scruffy terrier x, a collie x lab, a Shih-Tzu and a Golden retriever.
		
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How did you find this information out? Would I be able to find out about my local pound? 

Some people I know help with a similar foreign rescue and initially I was very anti as I do think we've got enough of a problem here in the UK & Ireland without adding to it.  Having said that, the dogs I have seen which have been brought over have all been lovely and I can't begrudge them a home.


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## moppett (26 November 2013)

AengusOg said:



			These dogs should not be available for rehoming, at all. Many of them will be smouldering powder kegs, and there is no way of knowing which of them will cause problems in the future for some well-meaning but unsuitable 'rescuers'.

It's impossible, without DNA information, to know the exact breeding of these 'bull type' dogs which finding themselves in dog pounds and rescue centres with ever-increasing regularity. Many of them will have been bred for strength of character and aggressive potential, by idiots, and selected on that basis for further breeding, so that the resultant generations just become a mish-mash of dogs with dodgy temperaments. That, coupled with a history of mis-management, strength of bite, oblivion to pain, and the tendency to take delight in ragging things, makes them potentially very dangerous indeed.

Why would anyone think such dogs would make family pets.

It's unfortunate for the individuals, but the only way to reduce the number of serious injuries and death (mainly to children) from these dogs is to destroy them as they are taken off the streets.

Any dog which has been living a feral existence, such as those in Romania, will be more challenging, in terms of rehoming, than would, say, a dog which has found itself homeless through misfortune, but which had previously been well looked after and socialised. The Romanian dogs have been living in packs; most of them will have had some sort of negative interactions with humans, and they will require specific management to help them adapt to another way of life. 

Some of the fluffy among us are so emotionally driven that they seem to think a rescued dog will be a doddle to look after simply because it has been rescued from what they perceive as a miserable existence. It's not that simple, I'm afraid.

I think the rescue centres in Britain should have a PTS policy on all dogs with bull terrier influenced breeding, and also on any dogs which fail to find a home within four weeks of being 'pounded', and it should be against the law to 'rescue' dogs from outwith the country.
		
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there is always an extremist!


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## CorvusCorax (26 November 2013)

Puppystitch, ring your local council and ask for the details about/to visit their dog pound, or the kennel which is contracted to take stray or unwanted dogs. Your town/borough/city council may even have information about the pound or dogs on it's website.

Aengus, with regard to your last paragraph, here is what one of the local councils says here - your PTS law already exists:

All seized stray and unwanted dogs are brought to the dog kennels in XXXX. *The law requires that all stray dogs are kept for a minimum of 5 days to allow the owners the opportunity of reclaiming them. Unwanted dogs may be destroyed immediately.* 
The Council however will make every effort to responsibly re-home healthy unclaimed stray dogs and unwanted dogs.  *Dogs that are very ill or have a history of aggressive behaviour are deemed unsuitable for re-homing.  All unclaimed stray dogs and unwanted dogs that cannot be re-homed are put to sleep by intravenous barbiturate injection by a veterinary surgeon. * Injured stray dogs are brought to the Councils veterinary surgeon for appropriate treatment. 

The Council  works very closely with two animal re-homing organizations and has substantially increased its re-homing of dogs over the last few years resulting in the majority of dogs being re-homed.  Council also works closely with the Dogs Trust, the UK largest animal charity, in the promotion of neutering initiatives which has resulted in a significant reduction of unwanted dog litters.  The Council area has had the highest uptake of neutering in the UK over the past 7 years.

The Council charges kennelling fees of £3 per day and £10 administration costs plus the dog licence fee and veterinary fees, if applicable, for all dogs reclaimed or sold.  A charge is levied for receiving or destroying unwanted dogs. The dog warden collects unwanted dogs at a rate of £10 per dog or they can be brought directly to the shelter for a reduced fee of £6.

The kennel supervisor is responsible for the day-to-day management of the kennels and welfare of the dogs.  As well as receiving impounded dogs from the dog wardens, the kennels are open to the public Monday  Friday 10.00am 11.00am and 3.30pm  4.30pm and Saturday 11.00am  12noon. During the opening hours members of the public can reclaim stray dogs, re-home unclaimed or unwanted dogs, or bring in unwanted dogs. 

Rehoming a Dog
 If you are interested in getting a dog, please consider re-homing a dog from our Council Dog Shelter at XXX where many of these dogs would make great pets and simply only require a good home.  The Kennel Supervisor will ask you about your home and lifestyle, to help him match you to your ideal dog.  In partnership with the Dogs Trust we are able to microchip your dog for free and also offer neutering with every dog re-homed.


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## Booboos (26 November 2013)

james ensor said:



			All our rescued dogs from overseas were additional rather than alternative to UK dogs.  And they have been rescued from far worse circumstances.
		
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So you had such a great demand for dogs you actually had to import to meet the numbers of UK people waiting for a dog? I am a bit surprised at that to be honest. And while I understand your point about breeds, how about breed specific rescues? I haven't known a single one have no dogs available because they have all been rehomed.


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## james ensor (26 November 2013)

It was exactly the other way around. Two of the dogs we have taken on ourselves, never having intended to have a dog. We found a nice German girl, the friend of a friend to take on two together who were inseperable sisters. The dog in Scotland was actually wanted by two people who had seen him, a woman in Scotland and a Russian woman living in Geneva. We had to arbitrate and then assist as they had both flown home, by the time the dog had cleared rabies tests. The last dog is joining a Swiss lady, who already has two rescues and previously rescued a dog herself by cutting the chain to which it was attached in the baking sun of the Algarve.

We have worked hard to find owners, most of whom have already taken rescue dogs. But we are helped by the attractive nature of the dogs themselves, usually either Podengos or crosses between Podengos and Labradors.

Without our help and that of many others, all would by now have been killed by strycchnine poisoning.


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## Clodagh (26 November 2013)

James Ensor - I admire you coming on to fight your corner, and they look like lovely dogs, but I doubt you will convince many people on this forum of the need to import rescues.

Puppystitch - I rang our dog warden when I last wanted a dog, and she told me the names of the kennels they dropped strays off at. I then rang round them all seeing what they had. I got Sash, my wonderful dog. There was just about every shape, size, colour and age of dog available, it was very sad.


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## Clodagh (26 November 2013)

AengusOg said:



			These dogs should not be available for rehoming, at all. Many of them will be smouldering powder kegs, and there is no way of knowing which of them will cause problems in the future for some well-meaning but unsuitable 'rescuers'.

It's impossible, without DNA information, to know the exact breeding of these 'bull type' dogs which finding themselves in dog pounds and rescue centres with ever-increasing regularity. Many of them will have been bred for strength of character and aggressive potential, by idiots, and selected on that basis for further breeding, so that the resultant generations just become a mish-mash of dogs with dodgy temperaments. That, coupled with a history of mis-management, strength of bite, oblivion to pain, and the tendency to take delight in ragging things, makes them potentially very dangerous indeed.

Why would anyone think such dogs would make family pets.

It's unfortunate for the individuals, but the only way to reduce the number of serious injuries and death (mainly to children) from these dogs is to destroy them as they are taken off the streets.

Any dog which has been living a feral existence, such as those in Romania, will be more challenging, in terms of rehoming, than would, say, a dog which has found itself homeless through misfortune, but which had previously been well looked after and socialised. The Romanian dogs have been living in packs; most of them will have had some sort of negative interactions with humans, and they will require specific management to help them adapt to another way of life. 

Some of the fluffy among us are so emotionally driven that they seem to think a rescued dog will be a doddle to look after simply because it has been rescued from what they perceive as a miserable existence. It's not that simple, I'm afraid.

I think the rescue centres in Britain should have a PTS policy on all dogs with bull terrier influenced breeding, and also on any dogs which fail to find a home within four weeks of being 'pounded', and it should be against the law to 'rescue' dogs from outwith the country.
		
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I do think you have a point, although a bit OTT. THe RSPCA in this area does, I hear, PTS all bull breeds now without any assessment.


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## james ensor (26 November 2013)

There is no need to import rescues. Our own dogs live abroad for much of the year and some of the other dogs that we have rescued are also abroad. But we see it from another perspective, where we face a stark and unenviable choice between rescuing a dog ourselves that we have been feeding and grown to love for homing somehere in northern Europe and abandoning it to face a horribly painful death.  That is how we have reacted, after completely failing to find local, safe homes, shelters or even kennels for these dogs in the Cape Verdes. At first we just let them die and each time we came back, some friends had disappeared. 

If you want to understand where we are coming from, please look at www.capeverdeinfo.org.uk/cape_verde_pets.htm


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## Booboos (26 November 2013)

james ensor said:



			If you want to understand where we are coming from, please look at www.capeverdeinfo.org.uk/cape_verde_pets.htm

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I do understand where you are coming from as I am Greek and had to live with this horrible reality all my life. Letting your feelings take over though is not a solution. Since you say you had to find owners for the imported dogs, what do you think happens to dogs waiting in UK rescues? Just because you cannot see these dogs when you go on holiday doesn't mean they aren't as deserving of a home as the ones you bring with you from abroad. The solution can never be saving a handful of dogs, the problem requires a more permanent solution. Educating people about breeding, neutering and rehoming in their own countries and helping vets and governments PTS humanely.


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## james ensor (27 November 2013)

It is fair to say that all six of our dog rescues have been emotional.  Apart from the two, which we have kept, none have gone to English people, and nobody, including us, actively was looking for a dog. So no dog from an English rescue home has been ignored. It is not easy to resist a sad face, begging for food and affection.  

The Cape Verdeans are some of the world`s hardest people to educate:they generally resent foreigners lecturing them. The Marxist ministers are mostly only interested in feathering their own nests. Indiscriminate killing of cats and dogs, which was organised by island Mayors, has been stopped on just one island, only due to the efforts of European expatriates. German vets come twice yearly to neuter dogs and cats, as a quid pro quo for ceasing killing.

But not all foreigners like dogs. Many foreign owners of  night clubs, hotels or cafes use stryccnine around their premises. An Italian hotel manager killed five dogs on the beach - three of them pets.  One German cafe owner throttled cats, in front of his customers.  An American cafe owner, whose child was bitten, put up posters with a "Walt Disney cartoon" image of an attack dog, teeth bared jumping out of the page.  He tried and narrowly failed to kill the dog, with rocks. His poster claimed that people could contract diseases such as rabies from dogs. But the islands have always been free of rabies. 

I will leave it to others to try to educate - but continue to help lovely individuals in a small way, by saving their lives.


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## CorvusCorax (27 November 2013)

james ensor said:



			The Cape Verdeans are some of the world`s hardest people to educate:they generally resent foreigners lecturing them. .
		
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I can't think why that might be.


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## ester (27 November 2013)

I think it is different if you are in another country on holiday/working and decide to bring back a dog at your own expense than dogs being imported en masse by 'organisations' some to go into rescue here rather than having homes to go to.


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## moppett (27 November 2013)

ester said:



			I think it is different if you are in another country on holiday/working and decide to bring back a dog at your own expense than dogs being imported en masse by 'organisations' some to go into rescue here rather than having homes to go to.
		
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agree!


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## james ensor (27 November 2013)

Many Cape Verdeans, especially the ruling elite who have had free education in Minsk or Smolensk or who were trained as Kommunister Jugend by the East German Stasi, dislike advice because they already feel that they know all the answers, from Marx and Engels.

Unfortunately their only source of foreign income is from the Cape Verdeans who have emigrated to the US or Europe - who  outnumber those that have stayed behind -  or from tourist spending.  Most tourists do not enjoy seeing the corpses of dogs and cats outside their hotels. There is no overt or outright hostility either to Europeans or to dogs but they resent one lot telling them how to treat the other, in their own country.


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## freckles22uk (27 November 2013)

Well this little chap with be going to the UK Monday, as my daughter has adopted him from here in Spain, hes been with me for the past 2-3 weeks until its time for him to go... she tried the rescues in the UK, but not many would allow her to adopt as she works 4-5 hours per day Mon-Fri, personally I would rather a dog be on its own a few hours a day then get lot of attention the rest of the time, rather than sat in kennels or a pound all day with hardly any attention/company, 

and it also works the other way round, I lost my Sheltie 10 weeks ago, (kidney failure)and wanted another, they are very rare here, plus I did not want to pay £700 for one (£1200 here) so I looked at the rescues in the UK, saw a lovely little chap and I could of given him the perfect home (Im home all day)... but the rescues in the UK would not entertain me... 

so I did get a rescue from here, a puppy that had been dumped on the streets, ok not a sheltie but a proper heinz 57 (and a little darlin)...

Apache, yes, that is snow in Spain..


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## Booboos (27 November 2013)

james ensor of course the locals resent foreigners coming in and telling them what to do with their animals, just like the British would resent a similar 'schooling'. That is why education is so important, because it has to be done the right way. Taking a small minority of the animals away doesn't do anyone any favours (other than those particular animals).

freckles22uk I've heard the argument that a dog is better alone in a home for a few hours than in a kennel and of course it makes sense, but statistically it misrepresents the situation. While true in some cases, statistically the comparison is not home alone vs kennel, but the dog is returned to kennels because it was a nightmare when left home alone vs kennels and waiting for the right home from which there is less chance it will be rehomed. Looking at sites like Mumsnet where many posters are not experienced dog owners (unlike HHO where many posters are experienced dog owners), new dog owners have wildly unrealistic expectations of their dogs. They primarily think that if you love a dog then all is fine, when, of course, it's not as simple as that, and why MN has a weekly "I have to urgently rehome my dog" thread.


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## freckles22uk (27 November 2013)

Booboos said:



			james ensor of course the locals resent foreigners coming in and telling them what to do with their animals, just like the British would resent a similar 'schooling'. That is why education is so important, because it has to be done the right way. Taking a small minority of the animals away doesn't do anyone any favours (other than those particular animals).

freckles22uk I've heard the argument that a dog is better alone in a home for a few hours than in a kennel and of course it makes sense, but statistically it misrepresents the situation. While true in some cases, statistically the comparison is not home alone vs kennel, but the dog is returned to kennels because it was a nightmare when left home alone vs kennels and waiting for the right home from which there is less chance it will be rehomed. Looking at sites like Mumsnet where many posters are not experienced dog owners (unlike HHO where many posters are experienced dog owners), new dog owners have wildly unrealistic expectations of their dogs. They primarily think that if you love a dog then all is fine, when, of course, it's not as simple as that, and why MN has a weekly "I have to urgently rehome my dog" thread.
		
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There is a difference between a 'few' hours and all day, now that I don't agree with, I cant see the point of having a dog for it to be alone 8 hours+ a day, and I can see why a lot end up in shelters due to this, though this is my daughters first dog, she has been brought up round dogs, and has not looked into having one lightly, which unfortunately a lot do, they see a cute puppy and thats it, or get totally the wrong breed, I does annoy me here though, Im on a lot of the rescue pages on FB, and people are pushed into the wrong dog, there are some pointer x dalmation pups at the moment want rehoming, and I can see some of those going to the wrong home, with no thought to whether the person adopting is suitable...  least with the one my daughter is having, Ive had him 3 weeks, so if I though he was totally unsuitable I could keep him with me... hes a little darling though...


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## blackcob (27 November 2013)

^ Excellent post Booboos.

I've successfully worked through separation anxiety in a dog and I would still never knowingly take on another one with it. It's absolutely hellish. The idea of a non experienced home ending up with a dog that cannot be safely left fills me with dread and I would rather see a dog left in kennels for a long, long time than be bounced from home to home wreaking destruction in its wake (and reinforcing itself further). 

The latest Mumsnet dog thread was  

Freckles you raise a good point about having had the dog for a few weeks first; the breed rescue I volunteer for doesn't use kennels and all dogs are fostered in homes. They have a very, very low rate of dogs being returned as a result because everyone knows exactly what they're dealing with. I'd love to see this model used more.


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## freckles22uk (27 November 2013)

blackcob said:



			^ Excellent post Booboos.

I've successfully worked through separation anxiety in a dog and I would still never knowingly take on another one with it. It's absolutely hellish. The idea of a non experienced home ending up with a dog that cannot be safely left fills me with dread and I would rather see a dog left in kennels for a long, long time than be bounced from home to home wreaking destruction in its wake (and reinforcing itself further). 

The latest Mumsnet dog thread was  

Freckles you raise a good point about having had the dog for a few weeks first; the breed rescue I volunteer for doesn't use kennels and all dogs are fostered in homes. They have a very, very low rate of dogs being returned as a result because everyone knows exactly what they're dealing with. I'd love to see this model used more.
		
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I think all rescue dogs should go on a trail first, my daughter is just lucky that I live here and it was no problem me having him, least he got some crate training, house training, recall lessons, lots of walks off lead, saw horses (as Ive got mine at home and daughter has a horse)... met my cats, I took him out to meet friends and other dogs... 

a friend adopted a podenco pup, and also did lots like I did, (he was a nightmare when he turned up) but it would not tolerate her cats despite trying everything,(she tried for 3 months with him)  the rescue took him back then proceeded to slate her on FB, stating she sent him back is he was ''a little naughty''  and they are saying he is good with cats... :-/

edit to add..... nearly all of the dogs here also go in a foster home for a while...  (shame some dont know what they are doing...)


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## Booboos (27 November 2013)

blackcob said:



			The latest Mumsnet dog thread was 

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There are so many going off at the moment in the doghouse I can't tell which one is worse!


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## Kaylum (28 November 2013)

It costs a fortune to import dogs as already said these are uk dogs bred over here getting more for them than they can sell normally. It's like the dealer I used to know selling Irish ponies they cost too much to bring from Ireland and because people are stupid she was sticking the Irish name onto anything that was bought from the sales.


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## 2Greys (28 November 2013)

Kaylum It doesn't cost a fortune if in EU pet passport scheme, they usually transport a load by road/ferry. On TV program about dodgy pups being shipped in to sell from eastern Europe they were selling pedigrees to pet shops for about £200 each so can make profit on that. It wouldn't surprise me if some rescues are dodgy & profitting on this market given that they don't even have to go to effort of breeding pedigrees.


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## puppystitch (28 November 2013)

Clodagh said:



			James Ensor - I admire you coming on to fight your corner, and they look like lovely dogs, but I doubt you will convince many people on this forum of the need to import rescues.

Puppystitch - I rang our dog warden when I last wanted a dog, and she told me the names of the kennels they dropped strays off at. I then rang round them all seeing what they had. I got Sash, my wonderful dog. There was just about every shape, size, colour and age of dog available, it was very sad.
		
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Thankyou for letting me know (and also to previous poster) - I have always wondered about council pounds.


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## Goldenstar (28 November 2013)

ester said:



			I think it is different if you are in another country on holiday/working and decide to bring back a dog at your own expense than dogs being imported en masse by 'organisations' some to go into rescue here rather than having homes to go to.
		
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Me too , but the  i sort of have too I brought not a dog but a cat home from Turkey for two years I resisted all the strays but this kittern would not go away so I got took her in the brought her home .
I expect that's what the dog from Iraq another poster mentained was too ,a dog who adopted someone it's hard to walk away when they have decided their yours .


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## james ensor (28 November 2013)

Freckles,

You will know as you live in Spain that Podencos are hunting dogs. Most of the dogs that we have brought from Cape Verde have been the similar Podengo, from Portugal.  They go completely wild , when they pick up the scent of a squirrel, rabbit or fox. I am sorry to say that they regard cats in the open as prey, also. Maybe they can be trained to accept one in the home, but there would be so many easier breeds.

My point is that most of the dogs in Spain and Portugal are working dog breeds, prized for their ability to hunt down prey to be put in the pot. I know nothing of Romania, but would not be surprised if the dogs, from different breeds. were not also working dogs.  This does not make them suitable for a lot of owners.

Podencos and Podengos are wonderful dogs, but a handful to manage and far from cat-friendly. Did anyone explain this to your friend, when she took the puppy?


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## freckles22uk (28 November 2013)

james ensor said:



			Freckles,

You will know as you live in Spain that Podencos are hunting dogs. Most of the dogs that we have brought from Cape Verde have been the similar Podengo, from Portugal.  They go completely wild , when they pick up the scent of a squirrel, rabbit or fox. I am sorry to say that they regard cats in the open as prey, also. Maybe they can be trained to accept one in the home, but there would be so many easier breeds.

My point is that most of the dogs in Spain and Portugal are working dog breeds, prized for their ability to hunt down prey to be put in the pot. I know nothing of Romania, but would not be surprised if the dogs, from different breeds. were not also working dogs.  This does not make them suitable for a lot of owners.

Podencos and Podengos are wonderful dogs, but a handful to manage and far from cat-friendly. Did anyone explain this to your friend, when she took the puppy?
		
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Yes she knew all about them, and did a lot of research, shes already got a Rhodesian Ridgeback (also a hunting breed so Im told)  but was told that is was ok with cats, though it was still a very young pup, to be honest they are not my sort of dog, I prefer the fluffy scruffy mutts..


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## james ensor (29 November 2013)

Ridgebacks were used to hunt lion: so a fearless dog. Podengo Medio- the size of a whippet - chase only rabbit. You have a talent with the paint brush.


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## Daisy Chain (13 March 2014)

There is some real venom directed here towards people adopting dogs from abroad. Personally I would save it for the idiots who abandon their dogs and expect other people to clean up the mess. I have seen adverts on Horse & Hound for unwanted pet dogs. I still cannot understand how someone can just get rid of an elderley dog who has been with them since a puppy and it's always that old chestnut, the change in personal circumstances excuse. Yes I am sure there are sometimes extenuating circumstances but a lot of the time these dogs are just being treated as disposable. I also have noticed that nobody mentions the people who buy their dogs from breeders without a thought of the dogs languishing in shelters. Quite acceptable to fork out a couple of grand for the latest Tibetan terrier, so haven't they effectively displaced a UK rescue dog? 

Has anyone considered that one of the big problems in Spain and France at the moment is the mass abandonment of dogs and cats by British ex pats? Many of the animals in shelters over there have come from that source. They are hot footing it back to the UK and leaving their animals behind, often abandoned in their yards. Luckily the Spanish shelters are rescuing some and aren't considering whether it is a British or Spanish problem. In this case, what is 'their problem' really is 'our problem'. I can't comment on the 'cute Romanian dogs' but can comment on the Spanish dogs. 100,000 galgos are abandoned every year. Before any Daily Mail readers get their knickers in a twist about them all coming here, most are killed - hanged, burned, buried alive, drowned - they aren't worth the cost of a bullet. In fact one town had until recently a lovely statue of a hunter with his dog hanging from a tree - it is an old Spanish tradition. 

Now when talking about education and neutering, perhaps consider this. The councils who implement the policies are often run by hunters and bullfighting enthusiasts with absolutely no regard for the dogs or any animal. When people do file law suits the papers go mysteriously missing. Try lecturing a galguero (hunter) and you are liable to face the end of a double barreled shotgun. The rescues out there do their best and a lot have education/neutering programmes in place. If you are interested in the welfare groups who are trying to make a difference in Spain then look at PACMA and ACTIN, groups with a big voice campaigning for changes in animal welfare. For the rescue, what would you do when faced with all of this? Most Spanish people will not adopt hunting dogs, they are not considered pets, they are considered to be vermin. They have no hope whatsoever and nothing is going to change any time soon because the governing bodies do not care, you have a go at changing their mindset, see how far you get! The only hope is to get them homes abroad. A lot go to Germany, Finland, Canada where they do not have a big stray dog problem. If you were out there would you leave them to their horrible fate? That's why a lot of ex pats go out there for a better life, see the horror of dogs being routinely tortured and left to starve and cannot stand by, many have set up their own rescues. 

Again I can only comment on Spanish dogs but the rescues out there neuter, test for diseases, vaccinate, home check before they send their dogs over to this country. This is my experience anyway. Big cost, no it costs about £250. Not suitable for a home - mainly the fault of the person taking the dog on - do your research, just because a dog is cute and fluffy doesn't mean it is suitable for you. Journey stressful - yes sure but as stressful as being hung from a tree in an olive grove? - not even close, even if some folk think there are worse things in life than death, depends if it's you suffering the fate doesn't it really? Dog can't cope with change in climate - oh give me a break - they are delighted to get away from the extremes in temperature. Anxious in the home - yes like any rescued dog and then they settle in (if you have chosen sensibly from a reputable rescue and have considered the important things other than if the dog is cute and fluffy!). Again, if anyone is interested in what these rescues do and what they are up against , google Mairena Pererra to see what happens to the dogs in killing stations and have a look at Scooby Medina, a wonderful rescue set up by an amazing man, Fermin Perez, who is a school teacher at the local school.

I can understand some of the anger directed at people who just want a fluffy dog, can't get one in a shelter here so are taking their pick from the Romanian 'cuties'. That shouldn't be what rescue is really about. I have two dogs, one is an English ex racing greyhound from a rescue in this country. He finished racing at five years old and was put into a shelter. He stayed there until he was nine because no one wanted a large, male, black greyhound with a wrist injury. He has been with me for two years and he is a lovely old boy, no problems, yes he limps a bit but so what! My other dog is from Spain, a mixed breed who was tied up and abandoned by British ex pats. A Spanish rescue (run by Spanish people!) saved her. Unfortunately she was consigned forever to a life in the shelter because she is a large black dog and not fluffy and cute. Generally, Spanish people will not adopt a black dog, they apparently bring bad luck and if you are a large black dog, forget it! Although looked after, she was sheltered at the back with the other 'no hopers' and stayed there for five years. She is now with me and it would be hard to find a more gentle, well behaved girl. 

So I will continue to re-home dogs from this country and from abroad, specifically the overlooked rescue dogs. I will continue to donate to rescues at home and abroad too. In future I hope to be able to rescue a pound dog locally, perhaps a staffie or staffie cross, because I am not phased by their supposed 'reputation'. I hope to rescue another ex racing greyhound, one of the black overlooked dogs, as the racing greyhounds have a terrible time of it and hopefully another galgo, as I had a galgo previously and fell in love with their gentle nature and temperament. I perfectly understand that it's a drop in the ocean but I will try and do as much as I can to help rescue dogs.

Although I care greatly about the Spanish dogs, I will never turn away from the dogs needing support in this country and as for local support, if ayone lives in Yorkshire and is interested in adopting a 'poundie', a friend of mine has recently adopted a death row dog, a sweet little staffie from www.helpingyorkshirepoundies.co.uk. They have some lovely dogs, again my friend is a sensible lady and has chosen a dog wisely, taking into account the dog's temperament and her lifestyle.


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## Calcyle (13 March 2014)

Just as a musing, I work in a dog rescue centre, and we unfortunately have some dogs who get returned despite our best efforts to match the homes. How on earth would that be dealt with if you've adopted from kennels abroad?


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## james ensor (13 March 2014)

We have not adopted dogs from abroad, but we have rescued dogs abroad and found owners for them throughout Europe and in the country where we rescued them.  The ones that have come to Europe have done far better. I would not pretend that they have been easy. It tends to depend upon just how badly they have been mistreated, just as it would in England. If one were rejected as too difficult by a new owner, we would simply have to do the same as we would with an English recue, that is to say find another owner with greater patience and skill 

All the dogs found homes in Europe have been very happy. I believe that they know what we have done. Because on one occasion we lost the first dog that we had rescued, when he ran off hunting in his original homeland. When we found him an hour later he was miserable, hang-dog and shrunken.

Of the four starving, thirsty puppies that we rescued from beneath a large carving knife wielded by a German, and left in their native country, one has been run over and killed. Another had puppies of her own at eight months,  A third was scared of us until we called him by the name that we knew him by, when he became happy - ironically the name that the new owner had given him. The fourth snarled at us from underneath a box, where she was cowering and we gave up the attempt to befriend her again.

One of the dogs that we rescued was abandoned by an expat - a Catalan, who claimed to have lost it and said he was sure that we would want to keep it. The dog loved him, but he could not be bothered to take the dog back and we were given one excuse after another. 

Many of the people that rescue dogs are expats and sadly some abandon them, later.  For those with a conscience, there is a dog bus from Andalucia and the Algarve, which will transport a dog to anywhere in England. It is operated by Pet Chauffers, based in Eastbourne.


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## Daisy Chain (13 March 2014)

Calcyle said:



			Just as a musing, I work in a dog rescue centre, and we unfortunately have some dogs who get returned despite our best efforts to match the homes. How on earth would that be dealt with if you've adopted from kennels abroad?
		
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My galgos were adopted from Greyhounds in Need. They are UK based and provide back up for life, dogs must be returned to them if it doesn't work out. They help greyhounds in this country and abroad. My mixed breed girl was from a Spanish shelter but the contact was British and if things didn't work out a temporary foster home was available. I spent a long time discussing her suitability, as she needed to get on with my ex racing grey who is cracking on a bit. I was provided with a full character assessment by the contact who had spent a great deal of time walking her, feeding her etc. Therefore the chances of it not working out were minimal.

I just want to clarify that I am in no way saying that people should rescue from abroad rather than the UK. I can understand why people who work with rescues here are upset that people are just picking cute dogs from photos on the internet rather than supporting local rescues. I can assure you that neither of my dogs are cute, as much as I love them! My ex racer (UK rescue) is the size of a small pony and my mixed breed girl (Spanish rescue) is built like a tank! When the inevitable happens with my elderly grey, I will be adopting another overlooked ex racing grey from a local rescue but in time, yes, I would like another galgo and also, a 'poundie'.

I agree that some of the rescue dogs are not always easy initially. Both my grey and galgo had a few resource guarding issues which disappeared completely after about six months. My galgo had clearly been battered and starved in Spain and he was covered in scars. He was a gentle, loving boy and it broke my heart to see him flinch if you moved your arm or leg suddenly.

I think if people are just picking dogs from pictures and not finding out enough about them and not adopting via a reputable rescue then they are crackers. As for UK rescues making it difficult for people, well why should the dogs be given to just anybody. We had three visits from our rescue when we got our ex racing grey. First visit for an initial assessment, second visit to ensure that he was getting on with my other dog and a third visit a few months later to check he had settled in and everything was going well. I thought that this was great.

Just wanted to say that people can support rescues at home and abroad and not everyone is adopting cute fluffy dogs or not thinking about the UK rescues too.


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## Leo Walker (13 March 2014)

I just want to point out that working bred dogs arent generally for the feint hearted! I have one and hes AMAZING! My dog of a lifetime, but knowing what I know now I wouldnt take on another working bred dog! Mine is very well bred and would have excelled as a rabbiting dog, he doesnt excel as a pet! I spend a lot of time making him think hes working when he isnt. And he was never actually worked as I took him on at 13 weeks ish. Because I got him so young I've been able to work with him to a certain degree but if he'd been actually worked I dont think there is anyway he'd have settled as a pet dog. 

Like I said, he genuinely is the love of my life! And he is now in no shape or form a worker, he regularly catches rabbits, rolls them and lets them go to chase again. But thats because at a young age he was taught bite inhibition. But the NEED to run and chase will never ever go! Hes also a complete sod to train! That thing they need to be good workers doesnt make for a malleable, trainable dog. 

Dylan got lucky! He ended up with me, and we worked through the kinks, but every single person who met him told me to get rid! I was his 3rd owner in 13 weeks! There are still days now when I could happily throttle him!  After staffies the next biggest group of dogs in pounds is sight hounds, generally failed workers dumped by numpties when its not as easy as they thought


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## Daisy Chain (13 March 2014)

Hmm I think someone may be telling porkies! I'm not sure that you do work in a dog rescue centre do you?!  Anyway, hopefully at least I have answered your query truthfully and honestly!


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## Daisy Chain (13 March 2014)

FrankieCob said:



			I just want to point out that working bred dogs arent generally for the feint hearted! I have one and hes AMAZING! My dog of a lifetime, but knowing what I know now I wouldnt take on another working bred dog! Mine is very well bred and would have excelled as a rabbiting dog, he doesnt excel as a pet! I spend a lot of time making him think hes working when he isnt. And he was never actually worked as I took him on at 13 weeks ish. Because I got him so young I've been able to work with him to a certain degree but if he'd been actually worked I dont think there is anyway he'd have settled as a pet dog. 


Having had three sighthounds now, I have had some experience with this breed. We had to watch my female galga, she was as keen as mustard. The male galgo not so much but not keen on small dogs. We were told that our ex racer was keen, the only thing he is keen on is his bed and his dinner! It depends on the dog. You get some fabulously laid back greys who make wonderful pets, some really keen and would like to eat the next door neighbours cat or yorkie, so may be better as a working dog! Good for you for taking on your dog and sticking with it. Bet he is happy be with you.
		
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