# Searching for Lost Clevelands



## Rollin (7 June 2012)

Ideas please from forum members.

As many of you know the Cleveland Bay is on the RBST critical list with only 33 pure bred foals registered last year.

We do have a group of people, me included, who want to preserve the Cleveland Bay.

Each year we lose horses and members.  People move house, horses change hands, people stop breeding or competing and most sad of all some horses finish up as pasture ornaments.

I am going to be doing a PR campaign over the next 12 months to encourage owners or CB lovers to engage with the breed and the society.

Question

How can I find all these Clevelands - pure and part bred?

If you own one - even if not registered but you have some history, please pm me.

Thank you


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## Missmac (7 June 2012)

I dont own one but my friend does and she loves them. Im a member of a group on Facebook - Cleveland Bay Wales. you could give them a go. I know there are a lot of people on there that are pasionate and very concerned about this lovely breed.


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## Rollin (7 June 2012)

Thank you for your reply.  Sadly I am not on Facebook (bit picky about the questions asked!) I would love to hear from your friends I will pm you an email address.


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## Zuzan (7 June 2012)

I think you have to think about every kind of media possible..

Facebook being the obvious one..  the grapevine but online..  Find a bay campaign ???  or Keep the bay alive ??? No to bay extinction.. ?? 

to getting the breed in the news ...  be it Countryfile (they've done Suffolk Punches etc) or displays in the ring ridden and driven or stands .. but also at the less showing orientated events..  Features / displays at HOYS / Olympia / Burghley horse trials ..   

My feeling is that the traditional showcase of "showing" has less of a "contemporary" audience than other equine sports... and in itself is often seen as elitist and exclusive.. really the absolute opposite of what the CB needs..  

Get the CBHS to keep a part bred stud book (would increase inclusiveness)  

They are part of our heritage and have played roles in development of many sport horse breeding programmes..  

Anything to up their profile and communicate their importance and value to the wider public... equine or otherwise...   

The economy is no friend of any equine never mind the CB..  and whilst a short term drop in breeding of CBs might be sustainable the CBHS needs to find new ways to promote the breed (in the same way as ISH and continental WBs and Iberian breeders have).

I personally would love to see the CBHS putting together a youngstock development programme to support breeders in the training and marketing of their youngstock.  This could be practical (helping breeders develop engagement and marketing or actual time on the ground helping with handling and other training..) and or financial..  

A support network for new owners and breeders perhaps ..  means to provide mentoring and advice

Work with other Rare Breeds and RBST to develop long term survival strategies for the breeds..  They came into existence for a reason.. it's a matter of finding their Raison d'être now .. some are obvious but thinking laterally too..  

My feeling is that it may well be too late....


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## Zuzan (7 June 2012)

Rollin said:



			Thank you for your reply.  Sadly I am not on Facebook (bit picky about the questions asked!) I would love to hear from your friends I will pm you an email address.
		
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You personally don't have to be.. but I understand an organisation or campaign can have their own Facebook page..  

This is partly why the CBHS falls down as it hasn't as far as I can see embraced social media and web..  looking at the Southern CB website for instance it looks like something out of the 90's ..

Does the CBHS have a youtube channel?

Looking at some of the ads on the CBHS website the pictures were truly terrible..  made me wince at how poorly people presented their horses ..  it SERIOUSLY undermines the breed

CBs are fantastic horses and can be absolutely stunning helping people with the presentation and getting decent photos is something else that really really needs to addressed...  

I was horrified at the Penrhyn Ads that were up there a while ago  .. it just looked sooo shoddy ..  How are the horses going to find good homes if the humans cant be bothered to present them well to ensure they catch the eye of the right people..???  

Sorry rant over but it makes me really upset in these economic conditions that people will effectively undermine their horses' chances.


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## Rollin (7 June 2012)

You are so right!!  part of my campaign will also be to get better pics of our lovely horses.

I put my hands up now.  I am a pants photographer, my son is brill.  Problem he is in Edinburgh and I am in Maine et Loire!!!

We have a lot to do.  As you say our horses are handsome, they need a bit of promotion and some really nice pics, plus of course our success stories.


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## Rollin (7 June 2012)

Zuzan reading your posts backwards, CBHS work closely with RBST.

Also Andy Dell as part of his PhD thesis conducted a major DNA study of Cleveland Bay genetics, I submitted samples from my small herd.  There is quite a nice write up on the Southern Cleveland Bay Club website.

http://www.southernclevelandbayclub.co.uk/

I will look at Facebook again, each time I have attempted to log on I was asked personal questions I don't wish to divulge.  Interstingly the Facebook share price has fallen since launch.


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## LittleWildOne (8 June 2012)

I don't know if it is of any use to you, but my New Forest filly has some Cleveland Bay ancestors back in the late 1700's/early 1800's.
There are a lot of Thoroughbred, Hackney and the odd "Yorkshire Horse" there too. I'm going by what is on allbreed pedigree, and have searched the progeny of the CB's in her pedigree. Looks legit, as they are ancestors of some of the "Forest " Cleveland Bays.


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## Dexter (8 June 2012)

I think you will struggle to do this without Facebook and other social media. If your not happy using it, you really need to find someone who is. Clevelands tend to have a reputation of being big and stubborn, that needs changing first and foremost. And if you can get people to view them as performance horses your on to a winner


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## Rollin (8 June 2012)

LittleWildOne said:



			I don't know if it is of any use to you, but my New Forest filly has some Cleveland Bay ancestors back in the late 1700's/early 1800's.
There are a lot of Thoroughbred, Hackney and the odd "Yorkshire Horse" there too. I'm going by what is on allbreed pedigree, and have searched the progeny of the CB's in her pedigree. Looks legit, as they are ancestors of some of the "Forest " Cleveland Bays.
		
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That is interesting, we love to have stories like that for our magazine Bay Window you should write it up - doesn't need to be long.  There are a few CBxNF crosses by the stallion Wheelgates Wellington, an English lady in Normandy has a mare and has been in contact with me.

I don't know if you go to any shows with your horse, or where you are located but Folds Farm, Hampshire have a show in July with CB and nonCB classes - the schedule is on the SCBC website - link above.


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## Rollin (8 June 2012)

Dexter said:



			I think you will struggle to do this without Facebook and other social media. If your not happy using it, you really need to find someone who is. Clevelands tend to have a reputation of being big and stubborn, that needs changing first and foremost. And if you can get people to view them as performance horses your on to a winner
		
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The breed standard is 16.00hh-16.2hh but my first three pure bred mares stood at 15.2/15.3hh, the youngest continued to grow until 5 years of age and is now just over 16hh.

The reputation for stubborness is not shared by those who own them it is a shame that this rumour persists.  I posted a photo of my 3 year old filly who we have just backed and turned away till next winter.  She has been very very easy BUT I will say that even as a yearling she was very strong and as with all young horses (my Shagyas included) they need firm handling.  I don't want to be barged or pushed around.  I have found my young Clevelands very easy to back and train.

Performance.  I totally agree and already have a trainer lined up for our 3 year old.  Problem is that with so few around it is difficult to find CB's performing.  However,

Spring Pascall is the top performing horse on the UK Junior Dressage Team 50% Cleveland Bay.

Powder Monkey 50% CB

A few years ago a Pony Eventer by the CB stallion Baydale Juryman was featured in H&H he was on the junior eventing team.

John of Gaunt winner of Burleigh 1980 50% CB

Natterjack Toad Champion Show Cob 50% CB

Baydale Venus Champion Hack at HOYS is a part bred CB

Two pure bred mares in the UK have competed in endurance at 80kms, one coming 3rd in the UK Cup with times as good as the Arabians.

The biggest trail riding event in the USA was won this year by a Cleveland Bay

I am sure there are many more


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## Zuzan (9 June 2012)

Rollin said:



			The breed standard is 16.00hh-16.2hh but my first three pure bred mares stood at 15.2/15.3hh, the youngest continued to grow until 5 years of age and is now just over 16hh.

The reputation for stubborness is not shared by those who own them it is a shame that this rumour persists.  I posted a photo of my 3 year old filly who we have just backed and turned away till next winter.  She has been very very easy BUT I will say that even as a yearling she was very strong and as with all young horses (my Shagyas included) they need firm handling.  I don't want to be barged or pushed around.  I have found my young Clevelands very easy to back and train.

Someone once said to me that CBs don&#8217;t do micromanagement..  and I think there is something in this ..  it&#8217;s a question of working with them and showing them how to do something and asking for it but giving them some initiative in the process at the same time..  get them engaged with what you are doing and hey presto you have a fabulous horse

Performance.  I totally agree and already have a trainer lined up for our 3 year old.  Problem is that with so few around it is difficult to find CB's performing.  However,

Spring Pascall is the top performing horse on the UK Junior Dressage Team 50% Cleveland Bay.

Powder Monkey 50% CB

A few years ago a Pony Eventer by the CB stallion Baydale Juryman was featured in H&H he was on the junior eventing team.

John of Gaunt winner of Burleigh 1980 50% CB

Natterjack Toad Champion Show Cob 50% CB

Baydale Venus Champion Hack at HOYS is a part bred CB

Two pure bred mares in the UK have competed in endurance at 80kms, one coming 3rd in the UK Cup with times as good as the Arabians.

The biggest trail riding event in the USA was won this year by a Cleveland Bay

I am sure there are many more
		
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Agree there have been some fab CB sport horses (you forgot Arun Tor) but there needs to be more emphasis from the breeders on the sport horse performance thing (whether full or part bred) ..  

I still think that the issue is a cultural thing in that it seems to me that the breeders have a tradition of showing rather than producing for the various sports.. ..  

The equestrian "scene" is quite different I think from even 20 years ago..  has the CBHS moved with the times???? 

Re the big and stubborn..  I really think this is partly to do with their intelligence .. CBs have a huge affinity with humans as historically they were bred as Utility Horses (not draught) .. the selective breeding basically bred horses that learnt from humans very very quickly..  and were extremely "tuned in" to humans..  This of course backfires if the humans skills aren't up to it.. and partly it is being able to pick up from the horse how to proceed (listening to the alternative horse brigade).

Someone once said to me that CBs don&#8217;t do micromanagement..  and I think there is something in this ..  it&#8217;s a question of working with them and showing them how to do something and asking for it but giving them some initiative in the process at the same time..  get them engaged with what you are doing and hey presto you have a fabulous horse

Re SPARKS..  I Agree this is an excellent "tool" but in itself it isn't a "Strategy"..  it serves to keep the genetic pool as wide as possible but that is as far as it goes..  a strategy or long term plan would encompass SPARKS of course but would also incorporate other means to develop the breed and include partbreds, production of young stock and the general promotion of the  breed.

There really needs to be an appraisal of what activities have been successful.. if they haven't why not and to take this forward into a survival / development strategy with a review process built into it.


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## luckilotti (9 June 2012)

I have 1 pure bred mare (would love more!), i have a friend with a pure bred gelding (just started out on his showing career this season), also i have an ex livery with a part bred (reg part bred with CBHS - when she bought her she was passportless but a lot of googling and contacting previous owners finally managed to confirm her identity) - local to myself there is also someone with a part bred (well - they claim it to be)but she has a basic passport rather than CBHS one, i also know via a livery who owns one of her foals (so poss 1/4 CB?)

forgive me if they already do - but could the CBHS offer a special discounted service to verify 'unregistered part breds' DNA so that they could be overstamped by the society?  or maybe some uni student could do some kind of service as part of a phd/masters/dissertation etc??

dont quote me on this but i think it was the spring fesival of champions? which held some CB classes - and only had 1 entry (which was only because i told that competitor about the class)!  this is such a shame, whereby a show tries to help the breed by providing a class yet even though i know we have CBs locally - they just were not there to help advertise the breed :-(


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## Rollin (9 June 2012)

Zuzan I agree with you 100% we do need Cleveland Bays performing and not just showing.  I am certain you will see changes in the approach of CBHS in the next few years.

I actually bought a 3 year old approved stallion with the sole objective of competing him in France.  He was expensively backed and sent for schooling with one of the top 10 dressage riders in France.

He is wonderfully sweet tempered but did not want to canter with a rider on board.  My French vet got very cross when I kept calling him back to examine Arthur and insisted there was nothing wrong with him.  

The French dressage trainer agreed with me and recommended I take him to Nantes where he was seen by the Professor, an FEI vet, who agreed with my diagnosis.

Arthur has a badly healed fracture in his neck and other skeletal problems probably from an accident in the first year of his life.  Five different vet practices passed him sound.  Fixing him will cost more than he is worth but he produces quality foals and has a good life with me and I am very fond of him.

You are also correct about the intelligence of the Cleveland.  We have lots of electric fencing here and sometimes the foals run the wrong side and get separated from their dams.  This happened with my pure bred filly. Her dam just trotted back along the fence line to the opening and showed baby the gap.  The filly never forgot how to find the gap.

My Shagya colt never did work out how to get back to mum, we had to catch/herd him every time - even as a yearling!!!

I don't know if you have seen the article by Henry Edmunds on the SCBC website?  He has traced the history of the CB back to Roman times.  Here is the link.

http://www.southernclevelandbayclub.co.uk/#/cw-1201-long-perspective/4559314892


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## Rollin (9 June 2012)

luckilotti said:



			I have 1 pure bred mare (would love more!), i have a friend with a pure bred gelding (just started out on his showing career this season), also i have an ex livery with a part bred (reg part bred with CBHS - when she bought her she was passportless but a lot of googling and contacting previous owners finally managed to confirm her identity) - local to myself there is also someone with a part bred (well - they claim it to be)but she has a basic passport rather than CBHS one, i also know via a livery who owns one of her foals (so poss 1/4 CB?)

forgive me if they already do - but could the CBHS offer a special discounted service to verify 'unregistered part breds' DNA so that they could be overstamped by the society?  or maybe some uni student could do some kind of service as part of a phd/masters/dissertation etc??

dont quote me on this but i think it was the spring fesival of champions? which held some CB classes - and only had 1 entry (which was only because i told that competitor about the class)!  this is such a shame, whereby a show tries to help the breed by providing a class yet even though i know we have CBs locally - they just were not there to help advertise the breed :-(
		
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I have already made some suggestions to CBHS with regard to registering our 'lost' horses.
Sadly that could not include the DNA test as that is done by the AHT in Newmarket.  The current cost is £47 I don't think the society could fund that at the moment.

Also we don't currently have a part-bred stud book just a 'register'.  I put up a survey on this forum about this.  We should have a proper part bred stud book that in itself would encourage more registrations I am sure.


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## bilboduke (10 June 2012)

hi, I have a stunning part bred cb stallion. He is wonderful!! but I am obviously biased!!

 He was bred in the states and imported to the uk last year. Bred some fab eventer types in the states 3/4 tb 1/4 cb.

I set up a fb page for my appy stallion last year but havent bothered using it since. OOOPS.
Maybe I should get them both on there!!


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## Rollin (10 June 2012)

bilboduke said:



			hi, I have a stunning part bred cb stallion. He is wonderful!! but I am obviously biased!!

 He was bred in the states and imported to the uk last year. Bred some fab eventer types in the states 3/4 tb 1/4 cb.

I set up a fb page for my appy stallion last year but havent bothered using it since. OOOPS.
Maybe I should get them both on there!!
		
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What is he called?  and who bred him?  PHOTO PLEASE!!

We visited Washington DC last summer and went to the Upperville Horse Show which has CB classes.  Upperville CB classes yesterday were judged by two British members of CBHS.

We have really close links with the USA who have done a lot to preserve the breed.


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## Rollin (11 June 2012)

Bilboduke - is your horse Idlehour Nightflight?  He was imported from USA and is registered with CBHS.  If it is him he is 50% CB.

I have seen his photos on a webiste - if that is yours.


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## bilboduke (11 June 2012)

omg just spent half an hour writing MASSIVE reply and now lost it!! AAAARGHHH 


Rollin - Yes it is. (dont know how you made that link). Wasnt sure if I could name him.
Yes he is 1/2 cb 1/2 tb. i meant his offspring are 1/4 cb. Sorry

I have some poor excuses of pics on my site because I havent had chance to get camera out in the sun. Shameful I know. Can find some nice one on his previous owner site. if you google him


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## Rollin (11 June 2012)

bilboduke said:



			omg just spent half an hour writing MASSIVE reply and now lost it!! AAAARGHHH 


Rollin - Yes it is. (dont know how you made that link). Wasnt sure if I could name him.
Yes he is 1/2 cb 1/2 tb. i meant his offspring are 1/4 cb. Sorry

I have some poor excuses of pics on my site because I havent had chance to get camera out in the sun. Shameful I know. Can find some nice one on his previous owner site. if you google him
		
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I asked on the CBHS Forum and EVERYONE knows about him.  Marcia Brody has lovely things to say about him and they have posted the link to a superb site in USA.

If you join the Horse Breeders Forum you can show him off to your heart's content.  And he is of course a Grey Bay!!!

Is he available for natural covering?


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## bilboduke (12 June 2012)

Really, I know idlehour was a  big cb stud in the states but thought night flight was one of the lesser known stallions, being like u say 'grey bay'! Loving that phrase!! - have tried to look into his past including contacting breeder but some of it is difficult because of him being from the states! _             unfortunately I am really not able to offer live cover, ai only. Sorry


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## CBFan (12 June 2012)

I am very passionate about this breed as I think they are such intelligent, kind, strong and generous animals, more people should be able to enjoy the pleasure of them. 

While I do understand the theory of the Sparks Scheme I do think a LOT more emphasis should be put on QUALITY of stock and not just breed because we have a mare and a stallion that 'match' on paper. There are some less than perfect examples of the breed that are readily being bred from and this should be re-considered as IMO it only results in less than perfect stock.

If we want to breed useful animals we should also pay attention to the occurence of potentially hereditary conditions such as OCD and avoid breeding with such stock which would reduce the quality of future stock.

As a south eastern owner, I would love to see more activity in my part of the country (I believe there are quite a few CB owners in Herts, Beds and Bucks)  as I believe the closest activity at the moment is in Hampshire which is quite a treck!

I have said before on the CB Wall on Facebook I think they could do more to engage with CB Lovers on Facebook, encouraging people to tell story's and share tips and tricks, where to find tack to fit etc etc so this would be a good starting point to engage with the younger CB Audience.

While on the subject of the 'younger audience', The CBHS Website is much improved and has a much fresher look but the SCBC Website does look a bit old and 'fuddy duddy' in comparison...


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## Rollin (12 June 2012)

CB Fan I have pm'd you.

We certainly need to find out where CB owners are located.  As you say you feel you are the only one.  I have a feeling that there are more about than we think.  I keep finding pure and more likely part-breds who have not been registered.

So the hunt is on.

Thanks to all of you who have pm'd me.


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## KSR (13 June 2012)

I've not sent my passports back to update my address but mine are in Devon with me..

I keep my eyes open for CBs all the time and agree with CBFan..


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## NF_Kate (27 February 2017)

Rollin said:



			That is interesting, we love to have stories like that for our magazine Bay Window you should write it up - doesn't need to be long.  There are a few CBxNF crosses by the stallion Wheelgates Wellington, an English lady in Normandy has a mare and has been in contact with me.

I don't know if you go to any shows with your horse, or where you are located but Folds Farm, Hampshire have a show in July with CB and nonCB classes - the schedule is on the SCBC website - link above.
		
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I have a 1/8th CB x NF gelding the 1/8th is Wheelgates Wellington  a Lady called Val Marshall had a few part bred CBx NF ponies here in the NF.. her daughter has recently broken in another one who I believe is 1/4 CB and is my ponies uncle or something ?! I do alright with my boy Eventing at BE 90 last year, riding club, arena XC, SJ bit of dressage etc won some part bred stuff at the NF annual show. He's definitely more substantial due to the CB influence I reckon


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## Rollin (27 February 2017)

So good to hear of your eventing success.

You might be interested to know that after I started this original thread, it was minuted in a CBHS Council meeting that 'someone called Rollin, is causing confusion', the society were conducting an audit of CB's in the UK!!!  The Trustee who complained about me, knew full well who Rollin was.  That is why I removed Cleveland Bays from my signature line.

There are some Wheelgates progeny in France, and I have a feeling that is was a Wheelgates part-bred which competed in the Golden Horseshoe, and did well, as an endurance horse.


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## NF_Kate (27 February 2017)

Horsey people are a funny bunch! ...  cut their noses of to spite their faces ... we get the same! Oh well that is good to know anyway thanks


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## Rollin (27 February 2017)

NF_Kate said:



			Horsey people are a funny bunch! ...  cut their noses of to spite their faces ... we get the same! Oh well that is good to know anyway thanks
		
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NF Kate if you have some photos of your part-bred, please join and put them on the Cleveland Bay Open Forum FB site. Lots of us who love the breed are posting photos demonstrating how versatile they are.  From small beginnings this a very popular site with friends from USA and Australia.


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## Ddraig_wen (28 February 2017)

Any particular CBs you're looking for? I used to do with 3/4 pure CBs here and two partbreds all belonging to the same person who's now moved a few times..


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## Rollin (28 February 2017)

This is an old thread.  At the time it was posted CBHS were conducting an audit and were looking for horses not registered with the society or whose change of ownership had not been registered.


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