# The Unspeakable?



## OldFogie (28 December 2017)

I don't suppose many folk heard the recent phone-in on L.B.C. as it was in the wee small hours but suffice it to say there was a storm of vehement anti-hunting sentiment expressed - with mention of that well known pillar of society - Oscar Wilde and his opinion that hunting was the "Unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible." The presenter seemed to enjoy the quote immensely while at the same time trying to say that he was neutral and expressing disappointment that no pro-hunt folk called. I was just too damned tired!

Now the thing that struck me is that most responders were absolute card-carrying class warriors, coming out with such phrases as _"these rich folk on their big horses"_ and the like with hardly a mention of animal welfare. I would also point out that Oscar Wilde was famous for a lifestyle which although quite illegal at the time cannot be in the least criticsized publicly these days no matter what one thinks privately 

I am minded of another quote (sorry, I've forgotten by whom) _"all of the fun but none of the guilt" _- said, I believe by a huntin' cavalry officer because a good point was like a charge where he didn't have to kill anyone. 

I think that the anti's and the banning debate miss the fundamental that most hunting folk do so for the thrill of the chase rather than trying exterminate all those cuddly little foxes!  

What say you?


----------



## Orangehorse (28 December 2017)

Very few antis actually bother to find out facts, they just believe something and aren't going to change their opinion and nothing will alter this.

There are plenty of people who genuinely are interested in animal welfare and you would have to respect this.  I used often to see foxes when out and about on my travels.  I can't remember the last time I saw one, so something tells me that they are being hammered by other methods.

The only people who change their minds are those who actually go out and find out what really happens (or did happen!).


----------



## Sandstone1 (28 December 2017)

OldFogie said:



			I don't suppose many folk heard the recent phone-in on L.B.C. as it was in the wee small hours but suffice it to say there was a storm of vehement anti-hunting sentiment expressed - with mention of that well known pillar of society - Oscar Wilde and his opinion that hunting was the "Unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible." The presenter seemed to enjoy the quote immensely while at the same time trying to say that he was neutral and expressing disappointment that no pro-hunt folk called. I was just too damned tired!

Now the thing that struck me is that most responders were absolute card-carrying class warriors, coming out with such phrases as _"these rich folk on their big horses"_ and the like with hardly a mention of animal welfare. I would also point out that Oscar Wilde was famous for a lifestyle which although quite illegal at the time cannot be in the least criticsized publicly these days no matter what one thinks privately 

I am minded of another quote (sorry, I've forgotten by whom) _"all of the fun but none of the guilt" _- said, I believe by a huntin' cavalry officer because a good point was like a charge where he didn't have to kill anyone. 

I think that the anti's and the banning debate miss the fundamental that most hunting folk do so for the thrill of the chase rather than trying exterminate all those cuddly little foxes!  

What say you?
		
Click to expand...

If that's true why try to get the ban over turned?  Do you not still get the thrill of the chase by following a scent as you should be doing?
If you don't still enjoy hunting under the ban why do it?
It seems that hunting under the ban is still popular so why worry about getting the ban overturned?
If hunting legally under the ban is popular and enjoyable and the thrill is for the chase not killing foxes i don't see why people are so keen on getting hunting reinstated.
Sorry if these seem stupid questions but I'm genuinely interested.


----------



## Sandstone1 (28 December 2017)

Orangehorse said:



			Very few antis actually bother to find out facts, they just believe something and aren't going to change their opinion and nothing will alter this.

There are plenty of people who genuinely are interested in animal welfare and you would have to respect this.  I used often to see foxes when out and about on my travels.  I can't remember the last time I saw one, so something tells me that they are being hammered by other methods.

The only people who change their minds are those who actually go out and find out what really happens (or did happen!).
		
Click to expand...

Couldn't that also be said of people that hunt too?


----------



## Equi (28 December 2017)

As said, very few antis ever actually figure out the fact that a drag hunt is not chasing an animal to "drag" it around! Our local hunt is a chaser, so two or three horses are chased via a trail the dogs follow (which very much confused me for a while cause i thought the horses and riders were just lost hahah) they only think about the bad parts. Id love to go hunting but i don't think i have the guts or ability, but it looks jolly good fun. These peoples hobbies probably include collecting china dolls or something.


----------



## Equi (28 December 2017)

Sandstone1 said:



			If that's true why try to get the ban over turned?  Do you not still get the thrill of the chase by following a scent as you should be doing?
If you don't still enjoy hunting under the ban why do it?
It seems that hunting under the ban is still popular so why worry about getting the ban overturned?
If hunting legally under the ban is popular and enjoyable and the thrill is for the chase not killing foxes i don't see why people are so keen on getting hunting reinstated.
Sorry if these seem stupid questions but I'm genuinely interested.
		
Click to expand...

Because people assume that any hunt is banned thus the "posh people" are not being treated like the commoners are because of money. It creates more of a divide.

Not sure how to work this blasted double quote thing, but to the other post: what can be said of hunting folk? And why do they need to have their minds changed ?


----------



## Sandstone1 (28 December 2017)

equi said:



			Because people assume that any hunt is banned thus the "posh people" are not being treated like the commoners are because of money. It creates more of a divide.

Not sure how to work this blasted double quote thing, but to the other post: what can be said of hunting folk? And why do they need to have their minds changed ?
		
Click to expand...

I think you are assuming that anyone who's anti hunting is ignorant.   I fully understand what drag hunting is.   I also understand what hunting pre ban is like as I've been myself many years ago.
I decided that it wasn't for me for many reasons none of my reasons were based on social class.
I've been born and bred in the countryside, own and ride horses but I'm still not a fan of hunting.
I know many people who hunt, some of them are very single minded and refuse to see hunting from others point of view.
Yes maybe some "Antis" are not fully versed in all the intricacies of hunting but many hunting people are just as guilty of refusing to see things from the other side of the fence.
Strange as it may seem, there are quiet a lot of horsey people who don't actually like hunting!


----------



## OldFogie (28 December 2017)

Personally, though being totally against the ban - I'm sitting firmly in a bullfinch on this one! If I'm being 100% honest about proper hunting as it used to be - then I'd have to say though I am far from squeemish I'd find it difficult to deliberately chase an animal for sport in 2018 and sometimes kill it. I rode for thirty years but never hunted only because my friends who did all had injured and even dead horses. For the same reason, the Aintree frame never indicated - owned, trained and ridden, in my name because if I'd ever had a horse capable of competing in the National - I could never have risked him despite the almost overpowering urge I had to do it myself!

Judging by the number of dead foxes, deer (and even this year a peacock!!) I see on my local roads (some way off the racing line to boot!) when most could have been avoided by no more than a slight application of brakes - I'd say that the average driver cares little about animal welfare at all and that national road deaths far exceed the entire tally that all Hunts could expect.

Of course, we had Draghounds long before the ban and we all know the reasons why they fall short of following a natural laid line for the purists but as if proof were needed that many anti's are more class warriors than true animal activists - these Hunts have been subjected to quite violent acts which in any other walk (ride) of life would result in the perpetrators being at least arrested. 

 I attended the Kimblewick Boxing Day on foot as ever and throughly enjoying the spectacle.


----------



## OldFogie (28 December 2017)

Sandstone1 said:



			If that's true why try to get the ban over turned?
		
Click to expand...

Despite the increased popularity of hunting and better promotion by all sections of countryfolk - I think the best to be hoped for pro-hunting is the status quo because it's seen as to devisive in Westminster and the government has quite enough on its plate!



			Do you not still get the thrill of the chase by following a scent as you should be doing?
		
Click to expand...

Most purist 'untin' folk would brook no substitute for a natural laid line or the break with about two hundred years of Tradition!




			If hunting legally under the ban is popular and enjoyable and the thrill is for the chase not killing foxes i don't see why people are so keen on getting hunting reinstated.
		
Click to expand...

Well, it would be good to cock a snook at Tony Blair eh?


----------



## Orangehorse (28 December 2017)

Sandstone1 said:



			Couldn't that also be said of people that hunt too?
		
Click to expand...

Yes of course.

Same old argument really.

The hunting act was a poorly drafted bill which has allowed ambiguities and allows antis to get so wound up.  It should have meant that everyone was happy, unfortunately it has meant that everyone is unhappy.


----------



## Theocat (28 December 2017)

You seem to be trying to imply the bizarre conclusion that foxhunting is somehow justified because a gay man was once rude about it. You have managed to be both homophobic and racist in your two posts to date - which isn't exactly portraying the pro-hunting lobby as open-minded, tolerant or intelligent.

Anyway: I am in the c1% of the population who is genuinely, having considered the issue and read the research, neither for nor against hunting. I think it's pretty barbaric, but certainly no more so than some other methods of control (or some modern farming). As Sandstone says, I really can't see why it's an issue; hunting within the law gives just as much of a thrill (if it's the chase you enjoy), does no one any harm, and is nobody else's business - so why not just get on wth it?

Try as you might to argue the other way, hunting is and will always be far, far beyond the financial reach of nearly everyone. People who hunt are, generally, richer than that average. It isn't really a class issue - but if you are surviving on minimum wage, the difference between upper-class,  and enough money to ride enough to go hunting, is, frankly, academic. People who hunt have more than they ever will. Denying that just undermines the pro-hunting cause, because it is an argument that cannot be won. 

It saddens me that the debate is always entirely polarised, and neither pros nor antis seem willing to engage in actual debate, as opposed to just repeating their own opinions.


----------



## Orangehorse (28 December 2017)

Plenty of gay men ride, and I daresay that includes hunting.

Theocat, you are right about hunting being beyond the reach of many people, but lots of hobbies would be out of reach of nearly everyone. 

Lots and lots of hobbies not including horses are very expensive, but they don't get the class hatred that hunting does. Yes, richer than average, but not necessarily super rich.  If on average keeping a horse is the same as keeping a car (BHS advice), and then think about how much some people spend on holidays, then an annual subscription to a hunt would be about the same.  To be rich you would have the holidays AND go hunting, but there are many people with rather average jobs who manage to keep their horses and go hunting.  I guess the thing is that they are still a minority even among the horse owning public.  

Years and years ago someone asked me what I thought the future of hunting was.  I replied that I thought that all hunts would become drag hunts, due to increasingly busy roads and built up areas and loss of country generally and the hunt would in exchange give a fox destruction service and deadstock collection service.  Not quite what happened, but there is a local hunt that states on its website quite happily that it follows a trail and there is nothing about "hunting within the law" which is ambiguous.

Sorry I'm rambling a bit.


----------



## Theocat (28 December 2017)

Not rambling at all - very nice to see reasoned points and a coherent argument!

Hunting brings together a lot of things that people would generally only find stupid or distasteful individually, but which in hunting seem to reach critical mass for attracting criticism. Quite apart from the money and class, you've got high visibility (Boxing Day meets, etc), a long and high profile history as a sport of the rich upper classes (regardless of reality), indoctrination of the young, animal cruelty, "fancy dress", posh alcohol (no one carries a flask of special brew!) ...

The reality is that the ONLY argument that should matter in the entire debate is animal welfare - and neither side seems willing to admit a middle ground. Those inside hunting too often don't seem to want to address it, or just try to explain it away, but those opposed struggle with the fact that it isn't black and white; they often won't accept / agree that foxes need controlling at all, and even if they do, don't accept / agree that hunting is at least no less humane than most other methods of control. That in itself is a weak argument: trying to justify something on the basis that it is no worse than the alternatives is never going to win many people over, especially when people dress up to do it and clearly enjoy it. 

I am on the fence - but in an ideal world, I'd prefer alternative methods of control, and drag hunting accepted by all sides (as far as is possible when class jealousy will still play a part!)

My turn to apologise for rambling ...!


----------



## GirlFriday (29 December 2017)

I've never understood why the antis don't make more of the fact that, regardless of any wildlife, all the dogs get shot.

Now, the pro-hunting types will doubtless say that I've no right to wonder that when I have not referred to them as hounds... but really, the amount of 'knowledge' of hunting necessary to say 'actually I don't think it is cool to keep dogs in such a way that one sees no retirement for them and shoots them when they get slow' isn't that great imo. I don't need to know any more to say that I'm not OK with a sport that requires the slaughter of dogs. With or without the slaughter of foxes.

However, lots of entirely barbaric farming methods are not banned. And the Hunting Act doesn't help the dogs, so...


----------



## Kat (29 December 2017)

Because "all the dogs" don't get shot. 

Hounds are humanely destroyed when it is in their best interests - same as pet dogs. While fit and healthy they will have a job or be rehomed if unsuitable for hunting


----------



## hackneylass2 (29 December 2017)

I would not think that a hound that has hunted for many seasons would be rehomed.  They just aint used to typical pet dog home life! I know a lot of folks who hunt or have hunted and none have had a 'retired' hound.  They get shot, they are not housetrained, pet dog material.


----------



## Sandstone1 (29 December 2017)

The old argument about foxhounds being unsuitable as pets.   I agree that if they have hunted and brought up in a pack it would be very difficult for them to live in a home as a normal pet.
However, there must be young hounds that are not up to the job for various reasons they never get rehomed.
I have known hunting beagles be rehomed to pet homes though.  Don't know why foxhounds should be any different.


----------



## Theocat (29 December 2017)

If it's a good life and a good death, I'm afraid that the humane destruction of the hounds once they can no longer work is very far down the list of animal welfare priorities we need to worry about in this country. I'd rather see their efforts turned on factory farming first.


----------



## Sandstone1 (29 December 2017)

Theocat said:



			If it's a good life and a good death, I'm afraid that the humane destruction of the hounds once they can no longer work is very far down the list of animal welfare priorities we need to worry about in this country. I'd rather see their efforts turned on factory farming first.
		
Click to expand...

I agree,  but is it a good life?
There are a huge amount of animal welfare issues in this country as you say, but who's to say which are more important?
Factory farming
Halal slaughter
Puppy farming etc etc.


----------



## Theocat (29 December 2017)

It's probably a pretty good life in the grand scheme of things. Live in a pack, needs met, bags of exercise. Of course there will be variation, and some won't be having a great life - but we can guarantee that every intensively farmed chicken is having a rubbish life, so I'd start there, closely followed by puppy farming. 

Lots of people like cheap chicken, though, which seems to have an extraordinary effect on their perception of welfare!


----------



## Alec Swan (29 December 2017)

Sandstone1 said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. ?  Do you not still get the thrill of the chase by following a scent as you should be doing? &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
Click to expand...

To answer your question,  No,  I don't.

It wasn't just Hunting that was banned,  but Coursing too and what ever the class ridden may think,  there may be a smattering of those with money &#8212; rarely the nouveau riche and mostly those who regardless of their wealth status were brought up to and understood the sport &#8212; Coursing,  by and large,  was a poor man's sport.

Do we remember when the Sunday Trading Laws changed and when the large chain stores opened on a Sunday to,  as they quaintly put it,  Test the Law?  Well,  accompanied by my Coursing dogs,  I test the law on a regular basis,  have done since the ban and only imprisonment will prevent me from doing so.  Laws which are in place for no reason other than biased beliefs which are based on ignorance,  call for civil disobedience.

The national swell of support for Hunting has nothing to do with people enjoying Hunting as it is,  and everything to do with the sense of resentment still felt by many that a corrupt and fraudulent government viewed the move as a method of garnering party support and failed to realise the sense of anger felt by those who live a rural existence and who viewed their freedom of choice as a right.  The lunacy of course is that the ban had a counter effect and Hunting is now more popular that ever.

Alec.


----------



## GirlFriday (29 December 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Well,  accompanied by my Coursing dogs,  I test the law on a regular basis,  have done since the ban and only imprisonment will prevent me from doing so.
		
Click to expand...

Surely to 'test the law' you'd have to pop in to your nearest police station and let them know what you were up to before you set off each time to engage in the illegal hunting of hares (classified as a Priority Species in the UK Biodiversity Action Plan - Wildlife Trusts)? Otherwise you're simply the same as many other petty criminals - the police have very limited resource to randomly patrol fields and look out for your activities and would (rightly) be heavily criticised for prioritising many resources in doing so.

I mean, once you're releasing captured hares and chasing them along Downing Street I'll be perfectly happy to acknowledge your civil disobedience - but when you're  only announcing your intentions on a relatively niche forum you're basically just a low level criminal, no?


----------



## Alec Swan (29 December 2017)

GirlFriday said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..  you're basically just a low level criminal, no?
		
Click to expand...

&#8230;. yes dear,  and being so quite clearly troubles you far more than it does me!  

Alec.


----------



## Fiagai (29 December 2017)

Theocat said:



			You seem to be trying to imply the bizarre conclusion that foxhunting is somehow justified because a gay man was once rude about it. You have managed to be both homophobic and racist in your two posts to date - which isn't exactly portraying the pro-hunting lobby as open-minded, tolerant or intelligent.

Anyway: I am in the c1% of the population who is genuinely, having considered the issue and read the research, neither for nor against hunting. I think it's pretty barbaric, but certainly no more so than some other methods of control (or some modern farming). As Sandstone says, I really can't see why it's an issue; hunting within the law gives just as much of a thrill (if it's the chase you enjoy), does no one any harm, and is nobody else's business - so why not just get on wth it?

*Try as you might to argue the other way, hunting is and will always be far, far beyond the financial reach of nearly everyone. People who hunt are, generally, richer than that average. It isn't really a class issue - but if you are surviving on minimum wage, the difference between upper-class,  and enough money to ride enough to go hunting, is, frankly, academic. People who hunt have more than they ever will. Denying that just undermines the pro-hunting cause, because it is an argument that cannot be won. *
It saddens me that the debate is always entirely polarised, and neither pros nor antis seem willing to engage in actual debate, as opposed to just repeating their own opinions.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think it is possible that anyone can extrapolate from a small number of posts that an entire community is or is not "open-minded, tolerant or intelligent" 

I find the argument regarding  hunting and socio-economic status truly bizarre. You said - 
"Hunting far beyond the financial reach of nearly everyone... People who hunt are, generally, richer than that average. It isn't really a class issue - but if you are surviving on minimum wage, the difference between upper-class,  and enough money to ride enough to go hunting, is, frankly, academic"

That argument could be thrown at anyone who rides, keeps or competes horses. If you have a horse or horses any additional activity whether it is eventing, endurance or showing will no doubt involve the spending of considerable amounts of money. To pay for these activities  may involve working 
or earning additional  money to help pay for expenses. That is what the majority of people do who are involved in equestrian activities in my experience. Does that make equestrians somehow elitists as you suggest? I don't believe it does to be honest.

Am I wrong in presuming you have a horse or horses?  Would you qualify as a target for those who consider you to be elitist as an equestrian? Does that make you a possible target for abuse by others?


----------



## Sandstone1 (29 December 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			To answer your question,  No,  I don't.

It wasn't just Hunting that was banned,  but Coursing too and what ever the class ridden may think,  there may be a smattering of those with money &#8212; rarely the nouveau riche and mostly those who regardless of their wealth status were brought up to and understood the sport &#8212; Coursing,  by and large,  was a poor man's sport.

Do we remember when the Sunday Trading Laws changed and when the large chain stores opened on a Sunday to,  as they quaintly put it,  Test the Law?  Well,  accompanied by my Coursing dogs,  I test the law on a regular basis,  have done since the ban and only imprisonment will prevent me from doing so.  Laws which are in place for no reason other than biased beliefs which are based on ignorance,  call for civil disobedience.

The national swell of support for Hunting has nothing to do with people enjoying Hunting as it is,  and everything to do with the sense of resentment still felt by many that a corrupt and fraudulent government viewed the move as a method of garnering party support and failed to realise the sense of anger felt by those who live a rural existence and who viewed their freedom of choice as a right.  The lunacy of course is that the ban had a counter effect and Hunting is now more popular that ever.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for your honest answer.
A lot of the argument for hunting pre ban was "we only do it for the ride across country, it's got nothing to do with killing foxes" 
Well now you've got the ride across country without killing foxes but it's clearly not enough for a lot of people who want the ban lifted.
Killing foxes is obviously still part of it anyway.  I think most people are fully aware that hunts do still illegally hunt foxes in purpose.

Just to make you aware in my local area police are actively looking for illegal hare coursing.
Can I ask why you feel the need to kill such a harmless animal?  Is it purely for seeing your dogs work?
With foxes i can appreciate the need for control in farming areas but hares?
I can't imagine that they do much harm to farmland.


----------



## ycbm (29 December 2017)

Do you hunt brown hare, Alec?  The ones that people round here are trying to preserve because they are  a threatened species?



I think some of the attitudes of non hunting people can be perfectly well explained by the behaviour of hunting people - drag, bloodhound and fox.

Things I have witnessed for myself:

Jamming up local roads  with parked lorries causing considerable inconvenience to the locals.

Causing massive damage, ruts over a foot deep, in soft,  beautifully kept,  kerb-lined grass verges directly outside a church wedding venue.

Holding up motorists for very lengthy periods to cross, travel along, or jump off or onto roads.

Flooding a local pub so that locals cannot get near the bar to get a drink or order food.

Filling countryside car parks so that no-one else can park to walk their dog. 

Turning bridleways and green lanes to total mush. 

Hunting in areas high in leisure horse numbers without making any attempt to warn the horse keepers in the area. 

Drinking spirits, usually gin or port, at the meet and at every check, from a glass at the meet or from an openly displayed flask attached to the saddle. (I did this. It was fun. It's only looking back now that I can see how it looks to some non hunting folk).

Putting a tired horse back on the lorry in a cramped stall and leaving it there while you go in the pub with your mates to have a drink and reminisce (in dirty clothes and loudly because of adrenaline) about the day. 


'Cubbing' now renamed 'Autumn Hunting. Used to teach the young hounds to kill fox. Surround a covert (small piece of woodland) with people who are instructed to make a noise to drive the young fox family back into the covert. Put the young hounds into the covert and wait while they slaughter the trapped foxes. 

Scarred hounds. Either through hunt or kennel injuries. I've seen some shockers.

I'm always surprised that pro hunting folk can't see what a picture all this adds up to for anyone who is inclined to act against them. No it doesn't happen every week with every hunt, but that's not the point. 






Going back to the old chestnut of sabs sabbing drag meets. I  drag hunted with four drag packs and two bloodhound packs on and off over decades. I have never seen a sab at a drag hunt. Sabbing of drag hunts is a rare stupidity, and most examples people give are either myth or donkeys years ago.


----------



## Sandstone1 (29 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			Do you hunt brown hare, Alec?  The ones that people round here are trying to preserve because they are  a threatened species?



I think some of the attitudes of non hunting people can be perfectly well explained by the behaviour of hunting people - drag, bloodhound and fox.

Things I have witnessed for myself:

Jamming up local roads  with parked lorries causing considerable inconvenience to the locals.

Causing massive damage, ruts over a foot deep, in soft,  beautifully kept,  kerb-lined grass verges directly outside a church wedding venue.

Holding up motorists for very lengthy periods to cross, travel along, or jump of or onto roads.

Flooding a local pub so that locals cannot get near the bar to get a drink or order food.

Filling countryside car parks so that no-one else can park to walk their dog. 

Turning bridleways and green lanes to total mush. 

Hunting in areas high in leisure horse numbers without making any attempt to warn the horse keepers in the area. 

Drinking spirits, usually gin or port, at the meet and at every check, from a glass at the meet or from an openly displayed flask attached to the saddle. (I did this. It was fun. It's only looking back now that I can see how it looks to some non hunting folk).

Putting a tired horse back on the lorry in a cramped stall and leaving it there while you go in the pub with your mates to have a drink and reminisce (in dirty clothes and loudly because of adrenaline) about the day. 


'Cubbing' now renamed 'Autumn Hunting. Used to teach the young hounds to kill fox. Surround a covert (small piece of woodland) with people who are instructed to make a noise to drive the young fox family back into the covert. Put the young hounds into the covert and wait while they slaughter the trapped foxes. 

Scarred hounds. Either through hunt or kennel injuries. I've seen some shockers.

In always surprised that pro hunting folk can't see what a picture all this adds up to for anyone who is inclined to act against them. No it doesn't happen every week with every hunt, but that's not the point. 






Going back to the old chestnut of sabs sabbing drag meets. I  drag hunted with four drag packs and two bloodhound packs on and off over decades. I have never seen a sab at a drag hunt. Sabbing of drag hunts is a rare stupidity, and most examples people give are either myth or donkeys years ago.
		
Click to expand...

A very good post.   I have also witnessed a lot of the things you mention.
However,  a lot of hunting people clearly don't see or care how much they can annoy and disrupt other people.


----------



## GirlFriday (29 December 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			&#8230;. yes dear,  and being so quite clearly troubles you far more than it does me! 

Click to expand...

Possibly - I suspect that a respect for the law is, within limits, a positive for society. But not absolutely, no. We're in agreement to an extent.

What bothered me was the geeky feeling that you hadn't explained correctly what you were doing and were misleading yourself and the forum slightly. And normally you're quite clear on what you do, which I like (despite not liking some of your opinions and activities).


----------



## Alec Swan (29 December 2017)

Sandstone1 said:



			Thank you for your honest answer.
A lot of the argument for hunting pre ban was "we only do it for the ride across country, it's got nothing to do with killing foxes" 
Well now you've got the ride across country without killing foxes but it's clearly not enough for a lot of people who want the ban lifted.
Killing foxes is obviously still part of it anyway.  I think most people are fully aware that hunts do still illegally hunt foxes in purpose.

Just to make you aware in my local area police are actively looking for illegal hare coursing.
Can I ask why you feel the need to kill such a harmless animal?  Is it purely for seeing your dogs work?
With foxes i can appreciate the need for control in farming areas but hares?
I can't imagine that they do much harm to farmland.
		
Click to expand...

The truth?  Most of the justifications to promote the continuance of hunting and by those who ride to hounds,  or course for that matter,  was complete and utter tosh offered as a way of placating those who were simply unable to accept that for many it was an inbuilt and important part of their lives.  It all boils down,  eventually,  to having a management system in place which allows the focus of our interest to prosper and survive whilst we effectively pick blackberries in the autumn.  The management which was in place was such that our vulpine population prospered and were healthy &#8230;&#8230;.. now on the other hand,  every other 'sniper' in the County is armed with a C/F rifle,  vixens with cubs to feed are bing killed,  foxes are being maimed through complete incompetence and inexperience and by and large,  our vulpine population receives NOTHING by way of support.  The hand of everyone is now turned against the fox whilst previously,  foxes were given sanctuary in established hunting country &#8230;. but no longer. 

I have a flight pond where I feed wild ducks,  I enjoy watching from a distance as they come in to feed in the evenings and as the sky darkens I try to identify the different species.  Perhaps 3 or 4 times a year I may invite a chum and we shoot a few brace,  and then leave before the end of the flight to let the stragglers come in.  I don't feed the pond just to shoot ducks because it would be cheaper and vastly so,  to go to the game dealer and buy my wild duck that someone else has shot and are presented on polystyrene trays.  The time involved and the cost of the barley FAR outweighs the return in duck fashion,  unless of course the value in what I do is that I manage and feed our local duck population,  as others do and so ensure that they're fed through the winter and so that I can seek out their secret sites where they nest and then from a distance watch in the spring as they hatch and move their little squadrons to safety.

I really don't expect you to understand or in any way accept that the wildlife which surrounds me and which in my own small way I manage and influence,  hopefully for the better,  matters to me,  a great deal.

Alec.


----------



## ycbm (29 December 2017)

Why do you feel that foxes need any help, Alec?  They appear to me to be one of the most adaptive and successful animals in the country. There is no shortage of fox, is there? The urban ones released here were magnificent specimins. 

You've not answered my question of whether you kill brown hare with your illegal coursing. If you do, how do you square that with them being a species in danger?

I see them a lot here since the ban removed the local  beagle pack. I had one living in my croft until recently. The ban was the best thing that could have happened here for brown hare. They have thrived.


----------



## Fiagai (29 December 2017)

Sandstone1 said:



			A very good post.   I have also witnessed a lot of the things you mention.
However,  a lot of hunting people clearly don't see or care how much they can annoy and disrupt other people.
		
Click to expand...

I would respectfully disagree. To a point all the listed things do happen on occasion  - despite the best efforts of people who hunt to  maintain to maintain good relations with those that do not. It is also important to remember many who hunt are also locals and like all equestrians have the same use of the roads and public access that others do. Tolerance is a two way street. 

What I really really hate in this case is that those against hunting are not happy enough to state that they hate / dislike all types of hunting whether trail or otherwise -  but insist on throwing everything including the proverbial kitchen sink at those that hunt and then some - so it becomes that all hunt activities become stretched into a popularised imagining of rampaging red faced alcohol swilling fence trampling loud mouthed rude toffs who ride their horses to death. 

Like all such generalisation - it does no one anyone any favours - whether that is those who dislike hunting or those that love it.


----------



## ycbm (29 December 2017)

Fiagai said:



			I would respectfully disagree. To a point all the listed things do happen on occasion  - despite the best efforts of people who hunt to  maintain to maintain good relations with those that do not. It is also important to remember many who hunt are also locals and like all equestrians have the same use of the roads and public access that others do. Tolerance is a two way street. 

What I really really hate in this case is that those against hunting are not happy enough to state that they hate / dislike all types of hunting whether trail or otherwise -  but insist on throwing everything including the proverbial kitchen sink at those that hunt and then some - so it becomes that all hunt activities become stretched into a popularised imagining of rampaging red faced alcohol swilling fence trampling loud mouthed rude toffs who ride their horses to death. 

Like all such generalisation - it does no one anyone any favours - whether that is those who dislike hunting or those that love it.
		
Click to expand...



I am very much in favour of drag hunting. I'm afraid your response to my post simply confirms the point that I was trying to make.   Even as someone who loves it I can see the picture it gives to people who don't do it.  If hunting is to survive, it needs to develop the same self awareness. 

It is not sufficient to respond to people who are held up on an A road for ten or fifteen minutes 'we have a legal right to be here, you should tolerate us'  while a mass of  riders make no attempt whatsoever to allow traffic to pass, or hunts station people in the road to physically stop traffic while fifty riders drift across the road in dribs and drabs.

I made it clear that my list of points was not about every hunt every week, but those things (barring hopefully cubbing) happen too often for the non hunting public to ignore.  If hunting wants to stop being hated, it needs to stop doing hateful things.


----------



## Sandstone1 (29 December 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			The truth?  Most of the justifications to promote the continuance of hunting and by those who ride to hounds,  or course for that matter,  was complete and utter tosh offered as a way of placating those who were simply unable to accept that for many it was an inbuilt and important part of their lives.  It all boils down,  eventually,  to having a management system in place which allows the focus of our interest to prosper and survive whilst we effectively pick blackberries in the autumn.  The management which was in place was such that our vulpine population prospered and were healthy .. now on the other hand,  every other 'sniper' in the County is armed with a C/F rifle,  vixens with cubs to feed are bing killed,  foxes are being maimed through complete incompetence and inexperience and by and large,  our vulpine population receives NOTHING by way of support.  The hand of everyone is now turned against the fox whilst previously,  foxes were given sanctuary in established hunting country . but no longer. 

I have a flight pond where I feed wild ducks,  I enjoy watching from a distance as they come in to feed in the evenings and as the sky darkens I try to identify the different species.  Perhaps 3 or 4 times a year I may invite a chum and we shoot a few brace,  and then leave before the end of the flight to let the stragglers come in.  I don't feed the pond just to shoot ducks because it would be cheaper and vastly so,  to go to the game dealer and buy my wild duck that someone else has shot and are presented on polystyrene trays.  The time involved and the cost of the barley FAR outweighs the return in duck fashion,  unless of course the value in what I do is that I manage and feed our local duck population,  as others do and so ensure that they're fed through the winter and so that I can seek out their secret sites where they nest and then from a distance watch in the spring as they hatch and move their little squadrons to safety.

I really don't expect you to understand or in any way accept that the wildlife which surrounds me and which in my own small way I manage and influence,  hopefully for the better,  matters to me,  a great deal.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

I understand what  you are saying to a point.  You enjoy feeding and watching the ducks.  You shoot a few which can be justified as you presumably eat them. 
What about the hare though?
Excuse my ignorance but by the time your dogs have finished with them I'm guessing they are not suitable for eating?
So that leaves the pure enjoyment of watching your dogs work?


----------



## Alec Swan (29 December 2017)

GirlFriday said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

What bothered me was the geeky feeling that you hadn't explained correctly what you were doing and were misleading yourself and the forum slightly. &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
Click to expand...

I've been called many things,  on here and elsewhere previously,  and now I can add Geek to the list,  thanks for that!   Of course I care passionately about the rural aspect of the world which we live in and I have views which are,  or would be,  open to change were I ever presented with any cogent argument which would convince me that the system by which our countryside has evolved and over centuries,  was wrong.

Just out of interest,  a question for you and perhaps anyone else if they care to answer;  'What do you feel has been the greatest influence over our rural life &#8212; ever'?  For the better or worse,  makes no difference.

Alec.


----------



## GirlFriday (29 December 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			'What do you feel has been the greatest influence over our rural life  ever'?
		
Click to expand...

There are those who would argue mechanisation (both in terms of rural careers and also transport) but I suspect 'wheat' is the answer.

(I was calling me a geek for liking correctness)

ETA: as far as I'm aware fox hunting (pre and post ban) is immaterial in terms of fox death - roads account for the majority and are pretty indiscriminate...


----------



## Alec Swan (29 December 2017)

Sandstone1 said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..
What about the hare though?
Excuse my ignorance but by the time your dogs have finished with them I'm guessing they are not suitable for eating?
So that leaves the pure enjoyment of watching your dogs work?
		
Click to expand...

When a Coursing dog,  in my case a Lurcher(s) has taken a hold and crushed the ribs and so the lungs,  death is but a few seconds away.  Only ill-disciplined dogs or those which lack experience would break up a hare and damage it,  occasionally saplings do,  but mostly they grow out of it and learn that there's no point in waisting energy when there's further sport to be had.  Mostly,  sporting dogs and hounds learn how to be economical and pace themselves.   As I'm ageing so the number of hares caught is dwindling,  but those which succumb are certainly eaten.  

Those who are involved in Coursing will tell you that there are few pleasures known to man like watching your own dog when it's tucked in behind a hare and when it sees those 3 or 4 strides and as with patience it waits until it can make contact.  Perhaps owning a racehorse and watching it win is a similar sensation,  but being a pauper,  I wouldn't know!

Alec.


----------



## Sandstone1 (29 December 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			When a Coursing dog,  in my case a Lurcher(s) has taken a hold and crushed the ribs and so the lungs,  death is but a few seconds away.  Only ill-disciplined dogs or those which lack experience would break up a hare and damage it,  occasionally saplings do,  but mostly they grow out of it and learn that there's no point in waisting energy when there's further sport to be had.  Mostly,  sporting dogs and hounds learn how to be economical and pace themselves.   As I'm ageing so the number of hares caught is dwindling,  but those which succumb are certainly eaten.  

Those who are involved in Coursing will tell you that there are few pleasures known to man like watching your own dog when it's tucked in behind a hare and when it sees those 3 or 4 strides and as with patience it waits until it can make contact.  Perhaps owning a racehorse and watching it win is a similar sensation,  but being a pauper,  I wouldn't know!

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

So basically it's for sport.


----------



## ycbm (29 December 2017)

'What do you feel has been the greatest influence over our rural life &#8212; ever'?
		
Click to expand...

Cheap oil. As we are going to find out when it runs out.


----------



## Alec Swan (29 December 2017)

GirlFriday said:



			There are those who would argue mechanisation (both in terms of rural careers and also transport) but I suspect 'wheat' is the answer.

(I was calling me a geek for liking correctness)

ETA: as far as I'm aware fox hunting (pre and post ban) is immaterial in terms of fox death - roads account for the majority and are pretty indiscriminate...
		
Click to expand...

Excepting that I don't quite get 'Wheat',  unless you mean the advance in agriculture,  but otherwise I agree with you.  The pressures upon our rural world,  summed up in the one word 'Advancement',  are colossal.  Rural life still hasn't come to terms with the 'engine' and I doubt that it ever really will.

I apologies,  I misunderstood your remark &#8212; even though you may have been unintentionally correct! 

It really is a curious thing,  I'm sure that you'll agree and that it's an anomaly;  pre-ban Hunting really didn't directly,  through the numbers killed by Hounds,  have much influence upon our vulpine population &#8212; now we have the hand of just about everyone it seems,  turned against our foxes,  cubs are being killed at the drop of a hat,  litters of cubs are dying of starvation because one or both parents are being shot under lamps,  the road casualties (around here,  anyway) are at an all time high&#8212; and yet,  we have more foxes nationally,  the disease level is on the increase,  though only a personal belief but I feel that foxes are now generally smaller,  and do we wonder why?

I've a plan,  and I'm sure that you'll see the sense of it D) &#8212; Let's abolish this ridiculous and unworkable Law,  Let's return to the days of Hunting as it was,  Let's establish the sanctuaried influence which Hunting provided,  just as an experiment and then let's see if our fox population returns to the previous numbers and health status which it once had.  No?  I thought not! 

Alec.


----------



## Alec Swan (29 December 2017)

Sandstone1 said:



			So basically it's for sport.
		
Click to expand...

Got it in one except that we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that with a love of Sport comes a sense of responsibility.

Alec.


----------



## cobgoblin (29 December 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Just out of interest,  a question for you and perhaps anyone else if they care to answer;  'What do you feel has been the greatest influence over our rural life  ever'?  For the better or worse,  makes no difference.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...



Townies!


----------



## ycbm (29 December 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Got it in one except that we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that with a love of Sport comes a sense of responsibility.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Where is your sense of responsibility in using your dog to kill a wild member of an endangered species, Alec?  I genuinely do not understand how you can say that?


I also don't understand why you think fox need sanctuary when they are, as far as I can tell, flourishing as a breed.


----------



## GirlFriday (29 December 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Excepting that I don't quite get 'Wheat'
		
Click to expand...

Globally it makes a huge difference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug for example


----------



## Alec Swan (29 December 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Townies!
		
Click to expand...

Well,  yes,  that's one way of putting it &#8212; the urban influence which screams at us just that and about just how much they really do care,  and that some half-wit academic from a Uni of which no-one's ever heard,  or some well intentioned clown who was in a pop band and who seem to be the chosen voice to listen to,  rather than those who attempt to explain that in reality,  life aint quite like that &#8230;&#8230;.. it goes on and on.

I suppose that well intentioned ignorance [_sic_] and mechanisation are equally at fault.

Alec.

As an edit,  it's only a shame that those who would wish for their own and often unrealistic ideas to be heard,  don't listen to those who live the life daily and that the two sides don't join forces and work together to affect change,  rather than the existing platform where one lectures the other and tells them that even though that's how their life has been lived,  for centuries,  all this time,  they've been wrong.


----------



## Fiagai (29 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			I am very much in favour of drag hunting.* I'm afraid your response to my post simply confirms the point that I was trying to make *.   Even as someone who loves it I can see the picture it gives to people who don't do it.  If hunting is to survive, it needs to develop the same self awareness.
		
Click to expand...

How so? Do explain.  On point dislike trail hunting or whatever stance you chose to take but attempting throw in all the kitchen furniture as part of your argument renders it less than convincing. 



ycbm said:



			It is not sufficient to respond to people who are held up on an A road for ten or fifteen minutes 'we have a legal right to be here, you should tolerate us'  while a mass of  riders make no attempt whatsoever to allow traffic to pass, or hunts station people in the road to physically stop traffic while fifty riders drift across the road in dribs and drabs.
		
Click to expand...

Absolute biblox.  Nowhere did I infer any of the above. Again your argument involves some serious misrepresentation and gross generalisations of what was detailed

As I said tolerance is a two way street. Country fairs, golf tournament, even bike races all involve crowdes of people using shared resources. Yes this may cause conflict - often unintentional -  however taking overt offence and screaming will help no one.



ycbm said:



			I made it clear that my list of points was not about every hunt every week, but those things (barring hopefully cubbing) happen too often for the non hunting public to ignore.  If hunting wants to stop being hated, it needs to stop doing hateful things.
		
Click to expand...

Do you know what? - you claim to have once hunted. It is said that there is none so unforgiven as those with  reformed beliefs. 

Time and time again it would appear we have posters  who turn up to barage, question and discedit those who hunt. 

I do not know of another single forum on H&H that are targeted by some to defend their equestrian activities again again and again. I frequently take long sabbaticals from the Hunting forum for exactly that reason. I would like that the Hunting forum be what it should be - a place for those with shared interests.

As in this instance - I have noted sone posters posting the exact same questions and generalised (and frankly rubbish imo) statements when a little bit of research would show that these questions have been answered here previously (I will hold up Alex as a shining light in this regard)  - often politely and with significant detail.  And yet we are here again.

If you are not an equestrian - may I politely suggest you take up an interesting hobby to occupy your time ...


----------



## GirlFriday (29 December 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			rather than the existing platform where one lectures the other and tells them that even though that's how their life has been lived,  for centuries,  all this time,  they've been wrong.
		
Click to expand...

At the risk of 'lecturing' - there isn't a great deal of evidence that fox hunting, in it's pre-ban form, had existed for many centuries at all really. Less than a handlful. Which in the the history of agriculture is pretty small.


----------



## Alec Swan (29 December 2017)

GirlFriday said:



			At the risk of 'lecturing' - there isn't a great deal of evidence that fox hunting, in it's pre-ban form, had existed for many centuries at all really. Less than a handlful. Which in the the history of agriculture is pretty small.
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't linking Agriculture to Hunting,  except that the former influences the latter,  mostly and that the latter should be (and in the main is) grateful for the freedom which is offered.  

Accepting your wrongly assumed five centuries when man has ridden to hounds,  how long do you feel that it would take for tradition and so,  a rural management system,  however unplanned,  it evolved,  to become established?

Alec.


----------



## cobgoblin (29 December 2017)

GirlFriday said:



			At the risk of 'lecturing' - there isn't a great deal of evidence that fox hunting, in it's pre-ban form, had existed for many centuries at all really. Less than a handlful. Which in the the history of agriculture is pretty small.
		
Click to expand...



The first recorded evidence of fox hunting for pest control was in 1534. Prior to that it was probably just called 'hunting' and lumped in with deer and boar etc.
Not really surprising that there is little recorded evidence before that as most people couldn't read or write, but wherever there was livestock I would imagine there would have been farmers trying to eliminate predators.


----------



## Alec Swan (29 December 2017)

Fiagai said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

If you are not an equestrian - may I politely suggest you take up an interesting hobby to occupy your time ...
		
Click to expand...

That,  I feel compelled to advise you,  is ice sooo thin!! 

Alec.


----------



## cobgoblin (29 December 2017)

Popcorn anyone?


----------



## ycbm (29 December 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Popcorn anyone?
		
Click to expand...

Only if it's Butterkist


----------



## Clodagh (29 December 2017)

I got a bit bored here, but generally the brown hare is doing very well, thank you, and we now ought to cull them to keep numbers down. When I had a lurcher we had none at all, which was not good either. All things need a balance. We are so overstocked with hares now that they are dying of a viral disease, stocks of most wild animals are self limiting. We pick up dead hares quite often. Even with buzzards taking many leverets we are still over run.
Coursing is the most fabulous sport, when done properly, and the best thing in the world is watching a long dog course a hare. Only really equalled by a good days ratting, but thankfully as no one likes rats that is still legal. 
I no longer fox hunt, or course actually, as a labrador would not be very good at it.


----------



## Fiagai (29 December 2017)

Alas Alec- I lack your absolute patience but yes I do prefer to call a spade a spade. At times I resort to the hunting forum for a little r&r only to find the same old. I promise to put it behind me -  I'm hunting tomorrow  : )


----------



## Theocat (29 December 2017)

Fiagai said:



			I don't think it is possible that anyone can extrapolate from a small number of posts that an entire community is or is not "open-minded, tolerant or intelligent"
		
Click to expand...

The point (although I did not make it well) is that both sides of this debate extrapolate from a small number of incidents / facts / examples, and that sort of judgement is exactly the conclusion that antis will draw from such a small-minded comment. 





			I find the argument regarding  hunting and socio-economic status truly bizarre. You said - 
"Hunting far beyond the financial reach of nearly everyone... People who hunt are, generally, richer than that average. It isn't really a class issue - but if you are surviving on minimum wage, the difference between upper-class,  and enough money to ride enough to go hunting, is, frankly, academic"

That argument could be thrown at anyone who rides, keeps or competes horses. If you have a horse or horses any additional activity whether it is eventing, endurance or showing will no doubt involve the spending of considerable amounts of money. To pay for these activities  may involve working 
or earning additional  money to help pay for expenses. That is what the majority of people do who are involved in equestrian activities in my experience. Does that make equestrians somehow elitists as you suggest? I don't believe it does to be honest.

Am I wrong in presuming you have a horse or horses?  Would you qualify as a target for those who consider you to be elitist as an equestrian? Does that make you a possible target for abuse by others?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I have horses. I am middle class, and I earn a reasonable but not enormous salary. Any of those things, even in isolation, is enough to make someone a possible target for accusations of elitism or even - in some places - abuse. 

Families surviving on minimum wage, or relying on food banks, cannot imagine having the sort of spare cash that's necessary to keep horses even on an absolute shoestring. To many people, having horses equals elite. We may not feel that we are, but we aren't going to persuade anyone of that just by denying it!


----------



## Alec Swan (29 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			Only if it's Butterkist 

Click to expand...

ycbm,  if your intent is to irritate,  at least from here,  you've missed the mark.  I am genuinely very fond of you which I hope that you accept,  I read so many of your posts and raise a salute and on just about every subject under the sun with which you choose to join &#8230;&#8230;.. but,  when it comes to any form of fieldsports,  you seem to step completely out of character,  you offer nothing of value beyond hearsay and nonsense,  your level of bias wanders in to the ridiculous,  and I'm left wondering how,  or more to the point 'why',  you offer irrelevance and simple nonsense as fact.  I could expect it of many perhaps,  but not you.

This isn't an attack upon you,  but simply a statement of bewilderment that you can promote such nonsense to support your arguments when under another umbrella,  you'd have me holding that umbrella and offering unwavering support.  It isn't even because we don't agree,  but more that your arguments have no value,  what so ever.

Alec.


----------



## Fiagai (29 December 2017)

Theocat said:



			The point (although I did not make it well) is that both sides of this debate extrapolate from a small number of incidents / facts / examples, and that sort of judgement is exactly the conclusion that antis will draw from such a small-minded comment.
		
Click to expand...

Ok I can accept that rationale. However if it works both ways for both antis and hunters -then Antis must also accept that their propaganda is also just that. 



Theocat said:



			Yes, I have horses. I am middle class, and I earn a reasonable but not enormous salary. Any of those things, even in isolation, is enough to make someone a possible target for accusations of elitism or even - in some places - abuse. 

Families surviving on minimum wage, or relying on food banks, cannot imagine having the sort of spare cash that's necessary to keep horses even on an absolute shoestring. To many people, having horses equals elite. We may not feel that we are, but we aren't going to persuade anyone of that just by denying it!
		
Click to expand...

Travellers / Gypseys have horses but I doubt if they are considered elite. I know small farmers with a couple of horses ditto. I know of those who choose to hire to hunt occasionally as they are not in a position to own a horse. I know of a widow who has a veteran horse who manages to hunt on her pension. But yes young families may have different priorities and as such are correct to do so. However I really dislike current thinking that anyone with an interest in a horse - hunting or otherwise is somehow elite. In my mind - It's a bit close to the cultural revolution when those who were educated were considered suspect and abused by those that weren't...


----------



## ycbm (29 December 2017)

To many people, having horses equals elite. We may not feel that we are, but we aren't going to persuade anyone of that just by denying it!
		
Click to expand...

I agree Theocat. As an example,  I swapped my aluminium 7.5 ton box, pretty indistinguishable from a cattle wagon,  for a new build 3.5 t.  Driving it home from the builder still smelling of paint, on a heavily congested urban motorway and in a queue to exit a shopping centre, we got abuse from a number of other motorists which we have never experienced before. It took me a while to realise that the upturned middle fingers and waving 'O' fists were because of a pretty horse van that cost the same as a family SUV. 

Hunters experience this more because they gather in large numbers in the same place.


----------



## GirlFriday (29 December 2017)

Clodagh said:



			the best thing in the world is watching a long dog course a hare. Only really equalled by a good days ratting
		
Click to expand...

C - I've no idea of your relationship or parental status but do hope that this does not reflect a sad demise in other, even longer established, means of both urban and rural human recreation...

ETA: ;-) just to ensure we're still all being good natured (with, in this case, organic home popped corn to hand...)


----------



## Clodagh (29 December 2017)

GirlFriday said:



			C - I've no idea of your relationship or parental status but do hope that this does not reflect a sad demise in other, even longer established, means of both urban and rural human recreation...

ETA: ;-) just to ensure we're still all being good natured (with, in this case, organic home popped corn to hand...)
		
Click to expand...

LOL! Made me laugh. I could not possibly comment. Snort!!


----------



## Orangehorse (29 December 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			When a Coursing dog,  in my case a Lurcher(s) has taken a hold and crushed the ribs and so the lungs,  death is but a few seconds away.  Only ill-disciplined dogs or those which lack experience would break up a hare and damage it,  occasionally saplings do,  but mostly they grow out of it and learn that there's no point in waisting energy when there's further sport to be had.  Mostly,  sporting dogs and hounds learn how to be economical and pace themselves.   As I'm ageing so the number of hares caught is dwindling,  but those which succumb are certainly eaten.  

Those who are involved in Coursing will tell you that there are few pleasures known to man like watching your own dog when it's tucked in behind a hare and when it sees those 3 or 4 strides and as with patience it waits until it can make contact.  Perhaps owning a racehorse and watching it win is a similar sensation,  but being a pauper,  I wouldn't know!

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

I thought the gypsies used their lurchers to hunt hares for the pot.


----------



## Clodagh (29 December 2017)

Orangehorse said:



			I thought the gypsies used their lurchers to hunt hares for the pot.
		
Click to expand...

You romantise them. They run their dogs on hares for the gamble. They leave the bodies lying in the fields.


----------



## OldFogie (31 December 2017)

What an amazing collection of replies! Now to return to my original thoughts that at least one poster thought homophobic and elitist - it wasn't entirely my idea - yes, I recounted it here but I must credit a certain presenter on L.B.C. radio in the wee small hours for quoting Oscar Wilde's very famous lines as if he'd never heard anything so prosaic in his life. Well, probably so, as I can remember when the erudite columnist Ludovic Kennedy got himself into much tepid water by called all disc jockey ramblings as - "the mindless meanderings of the mid morning morons"! Oh ho ho, imagine writing something like that on here!!!
No, no I'd say to the reply poster - no homophobia intended - only pointing out a rather obvious irony that Mr Wilde was imprisoned for offending the law of his times and a criminal conviction usually precludes ones participation in further polite society, let alone taking side swipes at those engaged in legal practices. 
Now, running through a few points - "cubbing" - some folk seem to think that this was aimed at exterminating fox cubs - I rather think this was to teach them to run away (I put it to anyone, that if every earth was eradicated every year, the entire population would be gone in less than a decade) a harsh education perhaps but as I mentioned earlier Hunting was looked at as replacing a cavalry charge and as we now live in gentler times I'll point out that the cavalry did not do a little ballet with sword in front of a camera as they do in films. The cavalry charged against ranks of foot soldiers in the last part of a battle - e.i. when they were running away, they acted like an equine assisted combine harvester, not a pretty sight. Don't forget that all hunts started as Staghounds long before the definition - in the old days if you went on a hunt - you were after a stag or in really ancient times a boar. I have some very old hunting books by one of the Berkeleys dating from the early nineteenth century in which he bemoans the advance of the railways ruining the possiblity of good runs - he once chased a stag from Richmond Park to Lady Hillingdon's living room - that's about fifteen miles.  Interestingly he also invented the first box or at least a sealable wagon with which he had men "save" the stag - one that would run like that was too good to waste even if you love venison.
As for the elitism - well some would be look at hunting in that way because of the strong connections to the landed gentry but I can think of at least one gent who has spent more on a set of sails for his racing yacht than many a pack costs in a lifetime and you can pop down to Hamble and jump from boat to boat to cross the water bank to bank and not touch a craft under £100k yet no one has ever protested at their outrageous display of wealth. How about Grand Prix racing? They regularly have 100,000 spectators watching high fuel cars poluting the planet for nothing - again no protests yet the owner of Formula One is one of the world's richest.
Coursing used to be considered a high sport by poor and rich alike - the present greyhound started off as a "gazehound" bred for coursing which in turn led to greyhound racing - now that has been hammered for animal welfare in the past.
Missing my dinner now so I'm off for tonight.


----------



## AdorableAlice (31 December 2017)

Happy New Year and can I have whatever you are on please.  Even with paragraphs I am struggling to make head or toe of your comments.


----------



## popsdosh (1 January 2018)

ycbm said:



			Where is your sense of responsibility in using your dog to kill a wild member of an endangered species, Alec?  I genuinely do not understand how you can say that?


I also don't understand why you think fox need sanctuary when they are, as far as I can tell, flourishing as a breed.
		
Click to expand...

Brown hare endangered species?? They are still borderline pest in this area (think rabbit with 3 times the appetite) At times we are forced to have to shoot them as much as we hate it! It is one of our only ways of stopping the travelling community illegally coursing and the huge amount of damage they do when coursing. There is a huge difference between organised coursing and what is going on illegally as there is no discrimination in what is taken. The worst months for us is april as they bring out young dogs just as the wheat is getting high enough to slow the hares down its just mass murder. 
A lot of hares have gone from moorland to a great extent due to the exploding Buzzard population. In recent times they have netted many hares from here to repopulate some areas however ours flourish but they soon wouldnt if their numbers got out of control.


----------



## Alec Swan (1 January 2018)

Orangehorse said:



			I thought the gypsies used their lurchers to hunt hares for the pot.
		
Click to expand...

There was a time when they did,  just as when men went poaching and it was to feed families and as recently as 40+ years ago,  but now despite what we're told,  either the will or the need has gone.  Now,  those who trespass in pursuit of game with dogs,  mostly do so for the devilment.

Alec.


----------



## Orangehorse (3 January 2018)

oh yes I know it is done for gambling now.  We find dead hares around sometimes, although not nearly so many live ones around as there used to be.


----------

