# foxes them selves wanting the ban revoked?



## houndsplease (11 February 2011)

Is it just me or are foxes trying to tell us something. since the ban came in and before we have been telling people that a ban on fox hunting will cause problems. and now the foxes are showing themselves that they want to go hunting and for the ban to be revoked. ive lost count of the number of cats killed (including 1 i found in the field half eaten the other day) people bitten and kids attacked in the past few months they are making a point and if they carry on at this rate then they will have the ban swapped for us.


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## Binkle&Flip (13 February 2011)

What a very interesting thread topic houndsplease. Firstly how many of the reported fox attacks on humans and pets are actually truthfull do we all think??
More important, given the ever growing number of huntstaff and followers etc illegally hunting, being caught doing so and convicted are hunters themselves not proving the ban more successful than we first thought it would be?


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## Alec Swan (15 February 2011)

Binkle&Flip said:



			.......More important, given the ever growing number of huntstaff and followers etc illegally hunting.......
		
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Are you really being serious?  Those who break the law,  are prosecuted.  Tell me how you expect the numbers to decrease.

I would suggest that you channel efforts into admonishing the "Ever growing number" of pedophiliac priests,  people who drive with alcohol in their systems, parliamentarians who steal from their employers (that's you and I,  by the way) and those who would earn their living by theft.  Do that,  and you may earn my respect.

Don't come on this forum and berate those who take part in,  and adhere to the acceptable conditions,  attached to a rural pursuit,  please.

Alec.


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## Binkle&Flip (15 February 2011)

Do this.....Dont do that??


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## Binkle&Flip (15 February 2011)

Don't come on this forum and berate those who take part in,  and adhere to the acceptable conditions,  attached to a rural pursuit,  please.

Alec.[/QUOTE]

Are you being serious with the above Alec? I merely mentioned convicted criminals.


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## Ahunter (15 February 2011)

Hi Binkle,

"Are you being serious with the above Alec? I merely mentioned convicted criminals"

As always somebody disagrees with you, I suspect he is right,


I suspect that the real answer is that, although a record is kept of the conviction, the conviction shows that a person has committed a breach of the Hunting Act, not that the person is a criminal.


"More important, given the ever growing number of huntstaff and followers etc illegally hunting, being caught doing so and convicted are hunters themselves not proving the ban more successful than we first thought it would be?" 

From Registered hunts more have been acquitted than convicted, you will have to explain how the ban is proving more successful than we first thought.


"As I understand it, of those 140 cases, only 12 completed prosecutions have involved registered hunts.In 7 of those cases the Defendant was acquitted and in 5 of the cases Defendants were convicted"


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## Alec Swan (15 February 2011)

Binkle&Flip said:



			....... I merely mentioned convicted criminals.
		
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B_F,  if you would care to go back,  and read your opening post,  you will see that you made accusations,  against and I quote ".......given the ever growing number of huntstaff and followers etc illegally hunting.......".  Perhaps you'd care to reconsider your words.  You didn't "merely" mention "convicted criminals",  without evidence,  you have accused others of breaking the law.

I'm assuming that you've given no further thoughts to my suggestions,  as to how you might better fill your time?  

Alec.


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## Binkle&Flip (16 February 2011)

Ahunter said:



			Hi Binkle,

"Are you being serious with the above Alec? I merely mentioned convicted criminals"

As always somebody disagrees with you, I suspect he is right,


I suspect that the real answer is that, although a record is kept of the conviction, the conviction shows that a person has committed a breach of the Hunting Act, not that the person is a criminal.


"More important, given the ever growing number of huntstaff and followers etc illegally hunting, being caught doing so and convicted are hunters themselves not proving the ban more successful than we first thought it would be?" 

From Registered hunts more have been acquitted than convicted, you will have to explain how the ban is proving more successful than we first thought.


"As I understand it, of those 140 cases, only 12 completed prosecutions have involved registered hunts.In 7 of those cases the Defendant was acquitted and in 5 of the cases Defendants were convicted"
		
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Oh come on Alec, "I suspect that the real answer is that, although a record is kept of the conviction, the conviction shows that a person has committed a breach of the Hunting Act, not that the person is a criminal."

Although I have no intention of getting drawn into a long debate about hunting you really cannot expect to get away with posting the lawyer speak above Alec, surely. The 'conviction', recieved for breaching the hunting act is as you well know a criminal conviction for breaking a law (which the Hunting Act is). The record of that conviction is placed on the persons criminal record. Therefore the person is a criminal and has to provide that information when asked in certain circumstances about any criminal convictions they have.


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## Binkle&Flip (16 February 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			B_F,  if you would care to go back,  and read your opening post,  you will see that you made accusations,  against and I quote ".......given the ever growing number of huntstaff and followers etc illegally hunting.......".  Perhaps you'd care to reconsider your words.  You didn't "merely" mention "convicted criminals",  without evidence,  you have accused others of breaking the law.

I'm assuming that you've given no further thoughts to my suggestions,  as to how you might better fill your time?  

Alec.
		
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My comments I can see have led to confusion. I was merely replying in kind to the opening post and did not intend in any way to accuse others of breaking the law. As for filling my time up I really dont understand what you are getting at. I posted one comment on the hunting part of the forum and you seem to think I now need to be giving my time to paedophiles, drink drivers etc etc  Having considered your suggestion I will leave them in your very capable hands


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## Ahunter (17 February 2011)

Binkle Flip, Referring to convicted criminals is far to a sweeping statement and places people who rape and murder alongside Richard Down who broke the hunting act because he used three hounds instead of two to flush a deer, surely you can see thats wrong ,  If you had said to Alec,

Are you being serious with the above Alec? I merely mentioned those that had convictions for minor offences under the hunting act.

Then I would have nothing to say on the matter.

As you have not mentioned the ban being proved more successful than we first thought I guess you have taken my response on board.


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## Binkle&Flip (17 February 2011)

Hi Ahunter. I actually got confused as to who I was responding to so apologise for that.
Of course there are very different levels of crime and those convicted of breaching the hunting act can not and should not be compared to the serious criminals you have mentioned. However, a criminal record is just that. A record of crimes committed and laws broken by an individual and a top lawyer trying to create a smokescreen around the true situation is nothing less than farcical


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## Xlthlx (22 February 2011)

Binkle&Flip said:



			What a very interesting thread topic houndsplease. Firstly how many of the reported fox attacks on humans and pets are actually truthfull do we all think??
More important, given the ever growing number of huntstaff and followers etc illegally hunting, being caught doing so and convicted are hunters themselves not proving the ban more successful than we first thought it would be?
		
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In interesting point.  What percentage of the allegations against hunts are triuthful do you reckon?


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## Xlthlx (22 February 2011)

Growing number being caught.

Um it's hardly going to go down is it?  Unless they get let off on repeal.

I believe the figure atm if people prosecuted for actual fox/stag hunting is 11

11 people out of 50,000 that hunt prosecuted in 6 years that's a ration of about 2/50,000 per year.

Compare that to 2/ 650 MPs sent to prison in a year for far more serious offenses.

Hunters are considerably more law abiding than a lot of other sections of society.


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## Fiagai (22 February 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			...Don't come on this forum and berate those who take part in,  and adhere to the acceptable conditions,  attached to a rural pursuit,  please. Alec.
		
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Binkle&Flip said:



			.... I posted one comment on the hunting part of the forum and you seem to think I now need to be giving my time to paedophiles, drink drivers etc etc  Having considered your suggestion I will leave them in your very capable hands 

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B&F - your whole raison d'etre on this forum would appear to be attacking those who in the words of Alec Swan....



Alec Swan said:



			... those who take part in,  and adhere to the acceptable conditions,  attached to a rural pursuit
		
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I realise you do not need to have an equestrian interest to register on the forum but the question presents itself why if you dont like the topics posted in the Hunting Forum are you preservering in this den of inequity and obviously horrible people?

I am sure there is somewhere out there as Alec suggested that would benefit much better from your enormous talents


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## cptrayes (22 February 2011)

houndsplease said:



			cats killed .... people bitten and kids attacked in the past few months they are making a point and if they carry on at this rate then they will have the ban swapped for us.
		
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Well it'll be interesting country to hunt - the suburbs of cities and major towns where these attacks are taking place. Given the size of most suburban gardens we'll need horses that can bounce ten fences in a row, wait to cross the road when the green man is showing, duck and dive between the buses and the cars and treat a 10ft leylandii as a bullfinch.


ps if you have lived in Bristol and seen an urban fox happily walk up to your lounge window and stare in at you eating your tea, you'd have no difficulty believing that they would attack your cat, or get into the house and bite a baby. Why would they not - living in an urban environment where people feed them, wittingly or unwittingly, has made them fearless? The situation with urban foxes has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to the hunt ban.


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## Xlthlx (22 February 2011)

cptrayes said:



			The situation with urban foxes has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to the hunt ban.
		
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Very true but I haven;t seen much from the pro hunting lobby to suggest it has


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## Binkle&Flip (23 February 2011)

Xlthlx said:



			In interesting point.  What percentage of the allegations against hunts are triuthful do you reckon?
		
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No idea but then reported crime in general even with arrest leads to a small percentage of actual court cases per crime committed.


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## Binkle&Flip (23 February 2011)

Xlthlx said:



			Growing number being caught.

Um it's hardly going to go down is it?  Unless they get let off on repeal.

I believe the figure atm if people prosecuted for actual fox/stag hunting is 11

11 people out of 50,000 that hunt prosecuted in 6 years that's a ration of about 2/50,000 per year.

Compare that to 2/ 650 MPs sent to prison in a year for far more serious offenses.

Hunters are considerably more law abiding than a lot of other sections of society.
		
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Ideal. That in no way should suggest that crimes committed should not be dealt with by the authorities hopefully.


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## Binkle&Flip (23 February 2011)

Fiagai said:



			B&F - your whole raison d'etre on this forum would appear to be attacking those who in the words of Alec Swan....

I realise you do not need to have an equestrian interest to register on the forum but the question presents itself why if you dont like the topics posted in the Hunting Forum are you preservering in this den of inequity and obviously horrible people?

I am sure there is somewhere out there as Alec suggested that would benefit much better from your enormous talents 

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In fairness unlike yourself my posts since joining the forum have not only been made on the hunting threads as I do not have any agenda 
Far from apologise for my attention being held by one particular very interesting and extremely politely discussed topic ( blocking of fox holes), I am pleased to have been a small part of the debate.
Unfortunately I also fail to claim to or actually see any enormous talent that I can share with other more needy people but if you do get stuck anywhere else on the forum I will be more than happy to bail you out


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## Alec Swan (23 February 2011)

B&F,

if you really insist on acting,  as a B_F,  then perhaps you may benefit from an acceptance,  that arguing,  and using semantics,  as a tool which,  whilst leading to your own enjoyment,  will also lead to the frustration of those who would hope that you may reach an understanding.  Would you see that as a pointless exercise?

I suspect that Rosiefronfelen may well be right,  in that you are a troll.  You and I will have no further contact,  which whilst that may be of no loss to you,  will save me from attempting to inculcate knowledge,  where there is patently,  a lack of accepting space.  Whether others choose to join me,  will be their choice. Coventry.

Alec.


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## Fiagai (23 February 2011)

Binkle&Flip said:



			In fairness unlike yourself my posts since joining the forum have not only been made on the hunting threads as I do not have any agenda ...)
		
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Check again all your posts you are as Alec rightly said, making an agenda of berating "those who take part in, and adhere to the acceptable conditions, attached to a rural pursuit.  Do you have any equestrian interests bar bothering those that do?  So far you have frequently posted, misquoted and disingenuous information.

I agree with Rosiefronfelen and Alec that you are in fact a Troll (and not the humourous type either)

There is of course a place for trolls...


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## Binkle&Flip (24 February 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			B&F,

if you really insist on acting,  as a B_F,  then perhaps you may benefit from an acceptance,  that arguing,  and using semantics,  as a tool which,  whilst leading to your own enjoyment,  will also lead to the frustration of those who would hope that you may reach an understanding.  Would you see that as a pointless exercise?

I suspect that Rosiefronfelen may well be right,  in that you are a troll.  You and I will have no further contact,  which whilst that may be of no loss to you,  will save me from attempting to inculcate knowledge,  where there is patently,  a lack of accepting space.  Whether others choose to join me,  will be their choice. Coventry.

Alec.
		
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 It will of course be no great loss whatsoever if you keep posting to me with your Fiagai account. Far from being a troll or whatever I am pro legal hunting post ban and others are pro hunting pre ban. It is clear that far from wishing for a Countryside Alliance those that wish for a return to hunting pre ban will criticise other forms of hunting and other methods and continue to allienate anybody who doesnt tow their line. In all honesty I have no need to discuss certain issues as real hunting continues and will not stop as it is legal, I simply choose to post in reply to others if I wish.
Now I am off to Coventry leaving you in the past. B&F


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## Binkle&Flip (24 February 2011)

Fiagai said:



			Check again all your posts you are as Alec rightly said, making an agenda of berating "those who take part in, and adhere to the acceptable conditions, attached to a rural pursuit.  Do you have any equestrian interests bar bothering those that do?  So far you have frequently posted, misquoted and disingenuous information.

I agree with Rosiefronfelen and Alec that you are in fact a Troll (and not the humourous type either)

There is of course a place for trolls...[/QUOTE

"as Alec rightly said"   You are Alec 

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## rosie fronfelen (24 February 2011)

Who is Alec in your eyes then?


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## Fiagai (24 February 2011)

Binkle&Flip said:



 It will of course be no great loss whatsoever if you keep posting to me with your Fiagai account.... I simply choose to post in reply to others if I wish Now I am off to Coventry leaving you in the past. B&F
		
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Binkle&Flip said:



			..."as Alec rightly said"   You are Alec 

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B&F - I had no intention of replying to the rubbish you post again...however on behalf of a fellow poster I make this reply

I have no relation whatsover to Alec and never have.  I do not know Alec in real life.  The closest I have got to Alec is respecting his polite and reasoned posts in this discusion.  A discussion in which you  have  prevaricated and continued in making insidious and disingenuous allegations.

The moderators will be able to verify that Alec and myself are seperate posters.  So I have reported you for your untruthfull postings and allegations.

You have yet to demonstrate you have any equestrain interests bar hanaguing those that do.

Enjoy Coventry!


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## Binkle&Flip (24 February 2011)

You have told on me?   I think it best to ignore the three of you if adult debate upsets you so much


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## Binkle&Flip (24 February 2011)

rosiefronfelen said:



			Who is Alec in your eyes then?
		
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As I believe you are a bit of a trouble maker I shall not respond


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## Fiagai (24 February 2011)

Binkle&Flip said:



 You have told on me?   I think it best to ignore the three of you if adult debate upsets you so much 

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No B&F I reported you for your untruthfull postings and allegations.

And so you admit there is three of us now!  Backtracking perhaps? What about the two you accussed before then?  If you think nobody likes your childlike behaviour then its best the adults leave you to it....


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## Binkle&Flip (24 February 2011)

Fiagai said:



			No B&F I reported you for your untruthfull postings and allegations.

And so you admit there is three of us now!  Backtracking perhaps? What about the two you accussed before then?  If you think nobody likes your childlike behaviour then its best the adults leave you to it....
		
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Ooooops, that was almost a complete edit of your original post


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## Fiagai (25 February 2011)

houndsplease said:



			Is it just me or are foxes trying to tell us something. since the ban came in and before we have been telling people that a ban on fox hunting will cause problems. and now the foxes are showing themselves that they want to go hunting and for the ban to be revoked. ive lost count of the number of cats killed (including 1 i found in the field half eaten the other day) people bitten and kids attacked in the past few months they are making a point and if they carry on at this rate then they will have the ban swapped for us.
		
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Wild animals that lose their fear of domestic situations can quickly become a serious nuisance eg people feeding brown bears in the US or dingos in Australia.
At the end of the day hunting is natural - even foxes do it!  However where they become accustomed to finding food adjacent to or from people they are going to become problematic especially where suitable controls are no longer utilised.


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## mymare (28 February 2011)

PMSL @ B&F!  Must be fun up on that planet!


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## Binkle&Flip (1 March 2011)

mymare said:



			PMSL @ B&F!  Must be fun up on that planet!
		
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Bless  Do you miss earth?


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## 1stclassalan (2 March 2011)

Hmmm... as far as I can see - this is a typical interweb arguement, folk ranting pedantically at each other with the main point long lost.

To my mind many of the reported "fox attacks" on humans are in fact cases of human misconduct against other humans - for that matter, I have grave doubts about the dingo business in Australia years ago too. 

Then to fully explore someone's arguement that a tend is growing - you must first establish the starting point for if the original contention begins at zero - every further instance is evidence of the thing growing.

Personally, I don't like the arguement for hunting just on the basis of it being a traditional country pursuit or we'd still have the hue & cry ( which come to think about gypsies wouldn't be a bad idea! )

However, I do take great exception to folk seeking to ban such a widespread lifestyle in the name of animal cruelty when fishing remains unsullied - this is doubly irksome when you consider that this is mainly because fish are regarded as unfeeling cold blooded life as opposed to cuddly warm foxes which rather runs counter to all life being sacred.


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