# submandibular lymph node swelling



## colcob (2 August 2011)

In April my horse had swelling of the submandibular lymph node, he was 100% normal in himself, no other horses on the yard had it, he had been stabled a few days before at a show centre, he is young and the vet said he had come into contact with a virus hence the swelling - possible strangles virus! The vet said it could stay up a while, carry on as normal unless showing signs of being poorly and not much to be done. It went down, never completely but pretty much normal, then last week its come back up - bigger and harder - feels quite solid, one of the ponies on the yard had a bit of a snotty nose and was treated with anti biotics as he had PC camp and we didn't want any risk of spreading anything or passing on anything and I can only guess he has come into contact with a virus and the gland has over reacted and come up again. He is 100% fine, not even bothered if I palpate it. I am not sure wheter to get the vet again or not! Or whether to ride him or not. The vet said carry on as nomal and no treatment unless other symptoms, I think he thinks I am over reactive owner.
Has anyone else this, its gone from soft swelling to a harder lump so my guess is maybe its going to rupture at some point?


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## Box_Of_Frogs (3 August 2011)

Are you sure it's not a swollen parotid gland? That's a very common occurrence - known as grass glands it affects piggy horses that eat and eat the lovely summer grass and then chew and chew and chew it, causing their poor old salivary glands to have to work overtime and they swell up. Can go up and down like a fiddler's elbow at times! Absolutely nothing needs to be done except, obviously, watch the horse's weight.


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## Miss L Toe (3 August 2011)

colcob said:



			In April my horse had swelling of the submandibular lymph node, he was 100% normal in himself, no other horses on the yard had it, he had been stabled a few days before at a show centre, he is young and the vet said he had come into contact with a virus hence the swelling - possible strangles virus!
		
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Well I think there is some confusion here, strangles is not a virus, it is a bacterium, Streptococcus Equi, your vet should/would  not have dismissed it in view of the fact that he had been out and about, young horses have minimal immunity so can pick things up more easily.
If this had been suspect, then the horse should have been totally isolated and all precautions taken, including temperature taken twice daily. A blood test would tell you if he has been exposed recently.
It is now three months down the line, so if the swelling was to abcess [highly infectious] it should have happened by now, also others would have it. and your horse would be ill.
The vet should be consulted again, [try another vet].
As for taking a horse with a snotty nose to camp, well that is so weird, the pony should be kept at home, I can't see the vet saying "I'll give it antibiotics, so you can take it to camp"


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## colcob (3 August 2011)

Probably should have worded it better. Three weeks ago the pony had a very slightly runny nose, the vet came out for another horse and while she was here I asked her to inspect the pony and gave it full going over temperature etc, everything normal but because we had PC camp in two weeks time she agreed to a course of anti biotics as a precaution. As it turned out the whole thing disappeared overnight and I was probably being over cautious and it was nothing. However, if it had been in any way ill I wondered if the other horse had contact with a virus which possibly caused the swelling.

I think I will consult another vet.


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## Miss L Toe (3 August 2011)

colcob said:



			Probably should have worded it better. Three weeks ago the pony had a very slightly runny nose, the vet came out for another horse and while she was here I asked her to inspect the pony and gave it full going over temperature etc, everything normal but because we had PC camp in two weeks time she agreed to a course of anti biotics as a precaution. As it turned out the whole thing disappeared overnight and I was probably being over cautious and it was nothing. However, if it had been in any way ill I wondered if the other horse had contact with a virus which possibly caused the swelling.

I think I will consult another vet.
		
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I am at a loss, if "another horse has  had a sub-mandibular swelling, which is changing in nature, for three or four months, a veterinary consultation is required.
But if you are not the owner of said horse there is not much you 
can do.
To monitor the health of a horse or a pony, the temperature needs to be taken twice a day over a long period, one temperature will only tell you if it is within the normal range on the day.


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## MardyMare (3 August 2011)

One of my horses had swelling of the SLN and was choking whilst trying to eat.  A blood test was done immediately and found that she had strangles.  Isolation and extreme measures of cleanliness were undertaken and she had 2 weeks box rest with her field partner to be monitored.  Only on the first 2 days did she have a temperature, the rest of the time her temp was normal, she continued to eat and there was no coughing and only a small amount of clear liquid occassionally from her nose.

A few weeks later after being given the all clear by a guttoral pouch swab she developed an abscess in her cheek - apparently a bacteria in the tissue and after a swab was sent to lab was confirmed that not contagious, viral or strangles related.   Most weird.

If I were you I would get another vets opinion and perhaps a blood test just to be on the safe side.


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## colcob (3 August 2011)

Mrsd123, a vet was called out when the horse first developed the lump, his opinion was its a young horse, has probably come into contact with something and keep an eye on it, we did, it went down, almost 100%, he also said at the time once the glands come up they can stay up and come and go for a period of months. He said it can be a strangles type virus its come into contact with. The horse had no other symptoms shares a field and trough with one other who also has been fine. Then it has come back up 3 months on, I phoned the same vet, his opinion was keep an eye on it and see what happens he didnt feel any further action was needed yet. Also said, maybe its come into contact with something the gland has come up again like an over reaction to a virus.
I have another vet coming Friday and will get them to do some blood tests to eliminate the strangles bacteria, we have 7 horses here though and would think something else would have been ill if it was that. This all happened after a routine dental visit, I wondered if he picked up something from the dentist equipment or even has a tooth problem although showing no outward signs, to me it would appear there is a localised infection somewhere possibly.


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## MardyMare (3 August 2011)

colcob said:



			This all happened after a routine dental visit, I wondered if he picked up something from the dentist equipment or even has a tooth problem although showing no outward signs, to me it would appear there is a localised infection somewhere possibly.
		
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I would be interested to hear the end of this story as my mare only had a reaction after the guttoral pouch swab.   I too have wondered about it being dental reasons - although vet initally dismissed it.  I do have a EDT booked for a couple of weeks time just to make sure.  Its so frustrating not having any concrete answers (in my case) and so I am interested in hearing other stories.  Hope your horse is ok.


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## colcob (3 August 2011)

I will let you know the outcome. I will ask them to do a blood test. Its only in hind sight I am annoyed the first vet did not even mention we could have a blood test done to confirm whether or not he had been in contact with the bacteria. He was very casual over the whole thing.

I dont know if these glands come up with tooth infections or not but will get a full check, temperature, mouth inspection the lot this time, blood test - I thought the first vet should have done this really.

Also after looking on the internet it seems there are lots of horses who get this swelling and the owners and vets never find out why.
He has a pimple on his chin, vet checked that, not a sarcoid, like an in growing hair follicle thing its about 8mm across which appeared just before and I even wonder if its that caused the problem if its an infected follicle. Hard to know whether to interfere or not but will push this vet a bit harder to get to the cause.


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## Miss L Toe (3 August 2011)

It can be a nightmare trying to pin down vets these days, my boy had a gutteral pouch with antibiotic gel injected, and when he still seemed a bit under the weather after three weeks, I asked the vet if there could be a problem due to residual antibiotics , the answer was a classic: "not as far as I am aware", 
now that is not "unlikely"
or "not possible"
or "possibly"
You are in their hands, and they should make their decisions on the basis of probabilities, they have a breadth of experience so should be in a position to advise, but I find I never feel as though I have been given anything in the way of education, which is what I want, as I too have to make informed decisions.
PS my vet came out to jab my boy and I asked her to check the teeth, she used my water bucket for the tools, but there was nothing in the water, I assume the rasps were clean, but was too scared to ask [we are not the best of friends,  our relationship could only be described as chilly].


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## oscarwild (3 August 2011)

Currently going through spell of swelling in that region with my mare.  We think hers is caused by a reaction to something in the field.  She came in and swelling went down with time.  Advised by vet to turn back out in field and see what happened.  Swelling came back next day.  So let vet know what had happened and she was brought back in again.  She was turned out in a new field once swelling had gone down and it came back.  So currently waiting on vet to phone me back about what next step would be.
thinking of getting bloods taken and see what they say.  She is also currently lethargic too even when the swelling goes down so she having some time off completely at the moment.

Let me know how you get on and if you find a cause for your horses swelling.  Very interested in what they find


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## colcob (3 August 2011)

I feel the same about vets, its hard to get the info out. I will write down everything I think about and go through it with the next chap and get a definitive answer to my questions. I even wondered if there is a black thorn or foreign body in there rather than it being gland, hopefully we will get some answers soon.


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## oscarwild (4 August 2011)

my vet before he came out thought it was foreign body but as soon as he saw it said no chance. haha.
After it flaired up for the third time in a few weeks, I sent the vet a lovely email with all questions I have etc and he coming out to see me today for a chat about whaere I go next.  I feel so sorry for her as she currently inside as the ground is too wet in boxrest field so she now had enough. Will let you know what my vet says once he been out.


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## MardyMare (7 August 2011)

Have either of you had any answers yet regarding the swellings?  I am bumping the post as there is another poster also have similar issues.


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## oscarwild (7 August 2011)

No not had any answers yet.  Vet coming out tomorrow to run bloods and some other tests and will see what it comes up with.  Will let you guys know as soon as I have something.


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## sodslaw (7 August 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			It can be a nightmare trying to pin down vets these days, my boy had a gutteral pouch with antibiotic gel injected, and when he still seemed a bit under the weather after three weeks, I asked the vet if there could be a problem due to residual antibiotics , the answer was a classic: "not as far as I am aware", 
now that is not "unlikely"
or "not possible"
or "possibly"
You are in their hands, and they should make their decisions on the basis of probabilities, they have a breadth of experience so should be in a position to advise, but I find I never feel as though I have been given anything in the way of education, which is what I want, as I too have to make informed decisions.
I quite agree with MRSD123, its very hard to pin vets down and they don't want to make a decision it seems.  Its even more when you have 2 vets from the same practise who can't agree and you as owner is caught in the middle!
I had an older horse that presented with a submandibler swelling twice now and both times it abcessed.  The first time the vet was convinced it was strangles and usher us out of the clinic double quick without any further investigation.  It turned out to be Strep zoo and not contagious, but infection got into lymph glands which then all reacted and it took 8 weeks for it to stop pussing...  Recently it happened again, same horse, slightly different place.. and again the vets couldn't agree on diagnosis.  The lump got so bad that they eventually cut it off instead of lancing it!!  horse is fine now.  Again the Q of strangles was considered and vet decided against any further investigation??  (lab results showed a rod bacteria -was probably a blackthorn this time)
I would pester the vet to find an answer, if I was you.  Especially because you have a young horse.  I know they are only human and a lot of this is a process of elimination, but still.... Maybe get a 2nd opinion?
Good luck.
		
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## MardyMare (7 August 2011)

Sodslaw - that is very interesting - my mare after having the same symptoms - burst out and the bacteria was 'Burkholderia Cepacia which according to wikipedia is : 

Burkholderia cepacia complex (BCC), or simply Burkholderia cepacia is a group of catalase-producing, non-lactose-fermenting Gram-negative bacteria composed of at least seventeen different species, including B. cepacia, B. multivorans, B. cenocepacia, B. vietnamiensis, B. stabilis, B. ambifaria, B. dolosa, B. anthina, and B. pyrrocinia.[1] B. cepacia is an important human pathogen which most often causes pneumonia in immunocompromised individuals with underlying lung disease (such as cystic fibrosis or chronic granulomatous disease)."

Very odd apparently for a horse to have it.  She is ok now but gosh I hope I dont have a repeat of that!


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## colcob (8 August 2011)

Vet came Friday, took bloods and am waiting results. His gut feeling was that it is not a strangles related lump. He said it does not feel like a classic lymph node up, he also said if it was absess type swelling the horse would be very sensitive, he is a little tender but not bothered, he checked him thoroughly, teeth exam, temperature etc and nothing abnormal, he said they could scan the lump if the bloods show no sign of virus, to check for foreign objects, he said sometimes horses develop a lump from an infection which drains down and turns into a cyst type lump of scar tissue which is not a problem and is best to leave well alone because they dont like operating near lymph nodes can cause more problems than it cures. So advised me to put a hot pack on it twice a day to soften the material in it and encourage the body to naturally deal with it. My feeling is I will have it scanned if no resolution forthcoming just so I know. He said it didn't look sinister as I was worried it could be something horrible.


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## colcob (9 August 2011)

The lump is definately coming to a head it has a scab and has changed shape to a more pointy lump, it is just started seeping a fluid and its like its about to blow its top off! Can only assume the hot treatment has got it doing something, would think its like an absess/boil type thing, not heard from the vet yet. I am quite relieved its doing something at last.


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## oscarwild (9 August 2011)

Thats good to hear that your lump is showing signs of coming to a head.  Sounds like its a sbscess or something.  How long did the vet say it would take for your bloods to come back?  My results should be back hopefully around thursday.  No sign of nothing yet with my horses swelling.
How is your horse in iteself?  Has he changed much?  Is he being worked etc?


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## colcob (9 August 2011)

My horse is fine in himself I gave him an easy week last week and then rode him and he tried to buck me off in exuberance, so decided to work him as normal unless he shows signs of being not right, he isn't really bothered when I touch or squeeze the lump although more sensitive than he was as it starts to come to a head. We are away next week so he will get a few days off then but until then if he is happy I am keeping him ticking over.
vet said bloods back in 2 or 3 working days so will phone tomorrow to chase them up.


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## oscarwild (11 August 2011)

Ah good to hear that yours isn't feeling under the weather.  Did you get the results back yet?  My vet has some of mine back and said he will come and discuss them with me tomorrow.  So hopefully that doesnt mean its anythin serious.
Mine has been feeling under the weather, been quite lethargic being worked after 20 mins.  recently she has been sweating buckets and misbehaving something rotten so no idea if its all connected or not.  So hopefully will either get the all clear romorrow or get some answers at long last. haha.

Hope you get some news from the bloods and lump is discharging something now.


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## colcob (21 August 2011)

Just an update, the vets blood test came back with nothing abnormal (relief) the lump discharged over a few days and has healed, my vet thought it wasn't quite in the right place for it to be a gland, very close and he was right because when the infection burst the glands have now come up very slightly but further down, the horse was a bit flat once it errupted so he has had 10 days off, rode him today and was his nomal self, I hope its not a foreign body still in there, time will tell. Am giving him Aloe juice as I was recommended it boosts the immunity.


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## Miss L Toe (21 August 2011)

So far, so good


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## oscarwild (22 August 2011)

Ah thats great news.  I didnt get so good news with mine.  
The bloods came  back and has showed high muscle enzymes so looks like my mare is tying up and that altho the liver is functioning fine there is a problem with the liver.  So I'm starting anther week of rest and she will be retested next week to see what has changed with the rest before going futher.  
We think my mare has eaten somethin in the field that has caused this but we it could be other things.

Good th hear your horse has recovered and is doing well.  I hope it doesnt come back.


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