# Condition Scoring - How Is She Looking?



## EquiEquestrian556 (12 June 2015)

Just wondering what people's views are on how Sunny's looking. Personally, I think she looks spot on, but I may well be wrong. I'm well aware that she's lacking top line though, which we're working on.

Some photos I took of her today.



















Sorry, she wasn't standing straight, hence she looks crooked.






She looks fat here, but in reality she isn't - again she's not standing straight though.






Final photo, her ribs are just visible.






To me, I'd score her at a 3. She's in moderate work, for 2.5 hours a day, including 45 mins schooling, 15 - 20 mins galloping, 45 mins jumping 1m+ (small course), and then normally 10 more mins schooling to finish off.

This is what she's fed. 0.1 kg of Baileys Lo-Cal Balancer, 0.3kg of Dengie Hi Fi Light Chaff, small coffee mug of Baileys All-Round Competition Mix, 50ml of Benevit Advance & 50ml of dried mint. She's on restricted grazing & has a small 24-hour soaked net when she comes in (she's in at night).


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## EquiEquestrian556 (13 June 2015)

Would nobody like to tell me what they think of her?


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## JillA (13 June 2015)

It's always difficult to tell from photographs, you need to be hands on to check for muscle vs fat. Are you using the 9 point scale or the 5 point one? Just test her against this  http://www.bhs.org.uk/~/media/BHS/Files/PDF Documents/Condition Scoring Leaflet.ashx


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## EquiEquestrian556 (13 June 2015)

JillA said:



			It's always difficult to tell from photographs, you need to be hands on to check for muscle vs fat. Are you using the 9 point scale or the 5 point one? Just test her against this  http://www.bhs.org.uk/~/media/BHS/Files/PDF Documents/Condition Scoring Leaflet.ashx

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I'm using the 5 point one.  This is her score when I condition scored her yesterday.

Pelvis: Easily felt & seen, nicely rounded, no gutter.
Back and Ribs: Ribs just visible and can be felt using only very light finger pressure. No gutter along her back.
Backbone slightly covered, spine can be easily
felt. Neck & Shoulder: No fatty deposits on shoulder, shoulder blade easy to feel & locate. No crest or fatty deposits on neck, just lacking topline. 

So to me, she's a 3 (on the 5 point scale). I was just wondering if anyone thought she could have a bit more off? I think she could, but maybe I'm wrong.


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## SpringArising (13 June 2015)

I like her a lot! She's super cute. 

I would say she could do with losing a few pounds, but I wouldn't be overly worried either.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (13 June 2015)

SpringArising said:



			I like her a lot! She's super cute. 

I would say she could do with losing a few pounds, but I wouldn't be overly worried either.
		
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Ah, thank you, she is cute isn't she!
Yep, I agree with you there. Would you say it's her belly or hindquarters that need to lose a bit, or both?

Also, not related, but would you say she's chestnut or roan (I know Faracat is the probably best person to ask though).


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## splashgirl45 (13 June 2015)

I think she looks about right, looks in really good condition but doesn't need any more weight...


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## Palindrome (13 June 2015)

She looks good to me too. I think she is a chestnut as roans have darker head and legs but her coat do looks speckled with white, has she got some appaloosa ancestry may be?


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## EquiEquestrian556 (13 June 2015)

Palindrome said:



			She looks good to me too. I think she is a chestnut as roans have darker head and legs but her coat do looks speckled with white, has she got some appaloosa ancestry may be?
		
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Thank you. No, she's a pure bred & registered NF, so no Appaloosa in there. Interesting, must just be her coat colour.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (13 June 2015)

This photo shows her white hairs quite well.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (13 June 2015)

What you describe, to me, is hard work, twice as much as most horses get, but she does not look particularly fit............
I like to see a few ribs, which are visible in one photo, other than that I think she needs to lose a good 10kgs, and build some muscle to get to competition fitness. Its probably the photos. Also your idea of galloping is probably a good fast canter on the bridle. We canter racehorses maybe 3  x 7 furlongs four times a week, maybe gallop 8 furlongs once a week. They are getting an hour and a half to two hours exercise six days a week and that is hard work it is about the same amount that an eventer gets.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (13 June 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			What you describe, to me, is hard work, twice as much as most horses get, but she does not look particularly fit............
I like to see a few ribs, which are visible in one photo, other than that I think she needs to lose a good 10kgs, and build some muscle to get to competition fitness. Its probably the photos. Also your idea of galloping is probably a good fast canter on the bridle. We canter racehorses maybe 3  x 7 furlongs four times a week, maybe gallop 8 furlongs once a week. They are getting an hour and a half to two hours exercise six days a week and that is hard work it is about the same amount that an eventer gets.
		
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Oh trust me, photos can be deceptive. She's very fit, just lacking muscle tone, the vet & farrier - even saddle fitter kept going on at how fit she was & looked (in the flesh). The 2.5 hours is absolutely_nothing_ to her, she comes back with a slightly sweaty area under saddle and warm - that's it. Even hunting, at the end when all the other horses are slowing down, puffing & dripping with sweat, she's just there like she just started, hardly any sweat visible. The vet has said what an incredibly fit horse she is. 

OK, maybe she doesn't gallop as far or long as a racehorse, but she isn't one and I don't want to be one (she gladly would be though!) She is definitely galloping, I do 35/ 40 laps (not entirely sure just how many, but that's normally my aim) of galloping round our 4.5 acre field (not sure how many furlongs that would be if you were to correctly measure it).  Maybe she is doing hard work, to me, she's not doing much, as she could do a lot more. But obviously TBs who are racing & 4* (I take it that's what you're referring to) are not the same as a NF pony who is very much used for leisure riding activities, and racers & eventers are normally kept at a condition score of 2, which unless it's a laminitic leisure type horse you wouldn't want to see.

ETA, her ribs are actually always visible in the flesh, but unfortunately the photos don't seem to show that.


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## SpringArising (13 June 2015)

EquiEquestrian556 said:



			Ah, thank you, she is cute isn't she!
Yep, I agree with you there. Would you say it's her belly or hindquarters that need to lose a bit, or both?

Also, not related, but would you say she's chestnut or roan (I know Faracat is the probably best person to ask though).
		
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She's chestnut. Red roans are far more 'pink' looking and have a much darker head & legs than they do body. 

I think her hindquarters are fine fat-wise (but lacking in muscle). It's her barrel that could lose a tiny bit.

This is a very good example of a red/chestnut/strawberry roan, btw:







Note how the body is a mix of chestnut and white hairs (usually far more white in the winter), and that the head and legs are completely chestnut.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (13 June 2015)

If you could do more slow uphill work you might get a different muscle pattern. I was not suggesting you train like a racehorse though point to pointers are, but it is for comparison.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (13 June 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			If you could do more slow uphill work you might get a different muscle pattern. I was not suggesting you train like a racehorse though point to pointers are, but it is for comparison.
		
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Sorry, should of been more clear with her workload. She also does lots of hacking, with lots of steep hills, walking & trotting up them. 
I'm well aware that she's lacking muscle tone though, which as I said in my original post we're working on. Thanks for your input!


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## TGM (13 June 2015)

To me she looks like a very 'well' condition score 3 - ie not actually overweight but at that stage where you have to be careful not to let them put any more on.  She looks a very similar type to my pony who is one of those 'live on fresh air' types, always looking well covered on minimum feed whilst hunting and competing.  The only time she really looked lean and fit was when she did some pony racing.  As for colour, I wonder how old she is?  Our pony was definitely chestnut when we bought her, but has a lot more white hair now she is 18, giving a more roan like appearance.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (13 June 2015)

TGM said:



			To me she looks like a very 'well' condition score 3 - ie not actually overweight but at that stage where you have to be careful not to let them put any more on.  She looks a very similar type to my pony who is one of those 'live on fresh air' types, always looking well covered on minimum feed whilst hunting and competing.  The only time she really looked lean and fit was when she did some pony racing.  As for colour, I wonder how old she is?  Our pony was definitely chestnut when we bought her, but has a lot more white hair now she is 18, giving a more roan like appearance.
		
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Agree with you there. A lot of people out hunting have told me to do pony races with her, but I think that may just blow her brain and she may never walk (only gallop or jog!) again! - She's definitely fast enough though. She's 9 next week


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## PoppyAnderson (13 June 2015)

Wow, that's a lot of work! Wish I could give mine that amount. They'd drop dead with the shock of it all though, I'm sure! 40 laps round a 4.5 acre field, in gallop??? Flippin heck. I'd fall off with sheer exhaustion at that! Anyway, I think she looks just a shade overweight and you'd never know she was doing that amount of work either, with the lack of muscle tone.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (13 June 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Wow, that's a lot of work! Wish I could give mine that amount. They'd drop dead with the shock of it all though, I'm sure! 40 laps round a 4.5 acre field, in gallop??? Flippin heck. I'd fall off with sheer exhaustion at that! Anyway, I think she looks just a shade overweight and you'd never know she was doing that amount of work either, with the lack of muscle tone.
		
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Yep, well, perhaps 35 laps, but I do try & aim for 40. She is very fit, just lacking muscle tone. I personally find it very tiring, hence why we often only do 35 laps (miss on the other hand, well she'd do far more if you let her!) OK then, looks like the verdict is still too fat, more exercise & even less food for her then (she's really going to love me isn't she!!).


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## PoppyAnderson (14 June 2015)

I'd change her feed too. There's a fair bit of 'filler' and sugar in what you're giving her. I'd swap to speedibeet, oats, a chaff with no alfalfa or mollases (not many about but pure easy is one - there are others) and salt.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (14 June 2015)

I am pretty sure OP will not agree but apart from the fact that I don't have the time, I only want a horse to be as fit as he needs to be, and I would have got the horse slim before fittening, once the muscles are built in this way it is almost impossible to alter them without letting a  horse down for six weeks and starting again with walking.
I don't see OPs diet, but I had a NF which was very "small TB" type and so I fed him and treated him like a TB, it seemed to work, he won a few rosettes, a judge of TBs was very taken with him. He was more an all rounder though, not built like a racing pony. 
I'd expect OP to feed a plain fibre based diet with oats for energy as the only cereal , no molasses for any horse, esp a pony.


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## Nudibranch (14 June 2015)

Im surprised she doesn't have more muscle with all that work.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 June 2015)

I'm quite happy with what she's on feed-wise, so I'm not going to change that - it's the tiniest feed in the world if you see it, it just sounds like a lot. Plus it's the only thing she really eats, other than mud & a tiny 24 hour soaked haynet. Oats send her loopy, so no to that. 

Again though, I was just asking how people thought her weight looked, not to tell me what to feed my horse or how to exercise her. Yes, you all have different opinions on what she should be fed or how she should be worked etc, but at the end of the day she is my horse, and I will do with her/ feed her what I want to feed her. Although I should know posting a question on here - you always get someone's opinion on a different matter when you didn't ask for it as such on HHO.


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## be positive (14 June 2015)

Nudibranch said:



			Im surprised she doesn't have more muscle with all that work.
		
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She should look like a racehorse in her muscle tone from working that hard if she is working correctly, I think her weight looks fine but does not really reflect the work she is doing, you will get a wide range of responses in the same way as almost everyone does on HHO and in RL. 
It may be that she actually requires a slightly higher protein diet to build the muscles correctly, I would try her on  micronised linseed, high in oil and protein but non heating, but then again you may not want any suggestions on what to feed, out of interest why the mint?


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 June 2015)

be positive said:



			She should look like a racehorse in her muscle tone from working that hard if she is working correctly, I think her weight looks fine but does not really reflect the work she is doing, you will get a wide range of responses in the same way as almost everyone does on HHO and in RL. 
It may be that she actually requires a slightly higher protein diet to build the muscles correctly, I would try her on  micronised linseed, high in oil and protein but non heating, but then again you may not want any suggestions on what to feed, out of interest why the mint?
		
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I was thinking of giving her micronised linseed for muscle tone, so may give that a go. The mint is purely because she's 'Miss Fuss Pot' and is very picky on what she eats, and the sprinkle of mint makes it more appetizing for her.


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## Goldenstar (14 June 2015)

Nudibranch said:



			Im surprised she doesn't have more muscle with all that work.
		
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Me too.
Horse is too fat for me ,it would be on to diet if it was getting that much work and was that size here .


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## PoppyAnderson (14 June 2015)

Diet and exercise go hand in hand. You can't divorce one from the other. Why so defensive? There's a lot of knowledge on here that's worth listening to. If you're not prepared for people to speak their mind, don't ask the question in the first place. Something is not quite right. That much work should produce a hard, fit, muscled horse, so something needs looking at. I stand by my point about diet. Have you ever properly looked into what's in those feeds? There's a lot of molasses and empty calories. Maybe if you fed a higher spec of food, a diet more akin to a horses natural diet, you wouldn't have to add mint to tempt her to eat it. Micronised linseed is also a great feed but its very high in calories, which is the only reason I didn't suggest it.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 June 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Diet and exercise go hand in hand. You can't divorce one from the other. Why so defensive? There's a lot of knowledge on here that's worth listening to. If you're not prepared for people to speak their mind, don't ask the question in the first place. Something is not quite right. That much work should produce a hard, fit, muscled horse, so something needs looking at. I stand by my point about diet. Have you ever properly looked into what's in those feeds? There's a lot of molasses and empty calories. Maybe if you fed a higher spec of food, a diet more akin to a horses natural diet, you wouldn't have to add mint to tempt her to eat it. Micronised linseed is also a great feed but its very high in calories, which is the only reason I didn't suggest it.
		
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Sorry, again, should of been more clear in the original post. She's only just started doing the 2.5 hours, she's been doing that much work for about a week, so not long. Before that she was being worked for an hour, jumping 1m courses and 30 mins very low level schooling, with 10 - 20 mins cantering, hence why I said she was in medium work, as to me she still was, as she'd only been doing the 2.5 hours for a week. I've upped her work load as I wanted to get her that bit fitter for ODEs later this year. She is just a very fussy eater naturally, only eating nice grass, and she's particular about her hay too, as well as treats. I personally prefer it if she's picky, as opposed to one pony we have, how'd eat a yew tree or old shoe if you let her.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 June 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Me too.
Horse is too fat for me ,it would be on to diet if it was getting that much work and was that size here .
		
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_*She*_ was & still is on a diet, I was just asking if people on here thought she was OK or needed to lose more.


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## Goldenstar (14 June 2015)

Yes she needs to lose more wieght to safely work that much .


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## ester (14 June 2015)

Is your field long and thin? I can't get past a canter on the welshie round 4.5 acres?

There is also a big difference between doing 10-20 min cantering last week and 15-20 min galloping now. 

Fwiw I can't imagine she is getting much out of a coffee mug of the baileys, - the main ingredient of which is oats so they can't make her that bad! I'd also be careful if you are only giving her a small net at night that she isn't too long without forage.


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## rara007 (14 June 2015)

Id be worried about my pony carrying that much weight working that hard, 45 min jumping 1m+ And 20 min galloping daily is a serious work load, her muscles must be covered by... a layer  Amazed your ground hasn't compacted too much!


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## SpringArising (14 June 2015)

ester said:



			I'd also be careful if you are only giving her a small net at night that she isn't too long without forage.
		
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This is the only thing that stood out to me. If she is only getting one small haynet a day then I would definitely look at increasing that and minimising the sugars & cereals she has. Hay is really far superior than manufactured feed (which is essentially junk food for horses in a lot of cases). 

I'm sure you've put a lot of thought into her diet and she definitely doesn't look poorly, but I can't emphasise enough the importance of forage (without meaning to sound condescending!).


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 June 2015)

ester said:



			Is your field long and thin? I can't get past a canter on the welshie round 4.5 acres?

There is also a big difference between doing 10-20 min cantering last week and 15-20 min galloping now. 

Fwiw I can't imagine she is getting much out of a coffee mug of the baileys, - the main ingredient of which is oats so they can't make her that bad! I'd also be careful if you are only giving her a small net at night that she isn't too long without forage.
		
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Her turnout paddock is fairly long and thin, the main field is quite wide more than long. I know there is, but I've slowly worked to that, I didn't canter for 10 mins on day and then gallop for 20 the next, as that would be silly and irresponsible to expect her to do that. Yes, I forgot to mention that, the Competition Mix does contain oats, which she's (just!) OK on, however oats on their own....No way! She'd be in the next county!  

OK, perhaps I'll give her two small nets at night, instead of one, so she's not without forage.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 June 2015)

rara007 said:



			Id be worried about my pony carrying that much weight working that hard, 45 min jumping 1m+ And 20 min galloping daily is a serious work load, her muscles must be covered by... a layer  Amazed your ground hasn't compacted too much!
		
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Oh dear, she really is fat isn't she!.... *walks away very shamefully into a dark corner*.
Our ground isn't bad at all, this hard ground & no rain *touches wood* is doing wonders for it.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 June 2015)

SpringArising said:



			This is the only thing that stood out to me. If she is only getting one small haynet a day then I would definitely look at increasing that and minimising the sugars & cereals she has. Hay is really far superior than manufactured feed (which is essentially junk food for horses in a lot of cases). 

I'm sure you've put a lot of thought into her diet and she definitely doesn't look poorly, but I can't emphasise enough the importance of forage (without meaning to sound condescending!).
		
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Thank you SA, will give her more mini nets then, and even less 'sweeties'! I did put a lot of thought into her diet, as she's not always an easy horse (can be spooky & is quite highly strung), and it was a little bit 'saddening' that people (not you) seemed to be making out that what I'm doing for her is completely wrong, so sorry to all posters who commented on this thread if my other post seemed 'defensive'.


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## Goldenstar (14 June 2015)

Well I say it straight working a horse carring that much fat the amount you say is something I would never do .
I would stable during the day and turn out in the evening so the horse is grazing when the there's less sugars in the grass .
I would also have the horse on restricted grazing on a track system ideally .
All my horses are carrying way more muscle than on far less work except the ones just coming back to work are perhaps as fat but have had no work since March .


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 June 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Well I say it straight working a horse carring that much fat the amount you say is something I would never do .
I would stable during the day and turn out in the evening so the horse is grazing when the there's less sugars in the grass .
I would also have the horse on restricted grazing on a track system ideally .
All my horses are carrying way more muscle than on far less work except the ones just coming back to work are perhaps as fat but have had no work since March .
		
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Stabling during the day & out at night isn't possible, as all the others are in at night, and she doesn't like to be out at night, especially on her own.  We did try the tract system, but she didn't like it at all (and neither did I), as she likes to run around in her paddock.




			a horse carring that much fat the amount you say. the ones just coming back to work are perhaps as fat
		
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You say 'that much fat', so what is she to you then, obese, or?... Because I personally don't think she looks that bad, nor does the very 'weight aware' vet, farrier or saddle fitter, so perhaps it's the photos. Yes she can still (and will) lose a bit, but from what you're saying it sounds like you think she's some mortally obese pony?


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## rara007 (14 June 2015)

Do the professionals know how much work she's in? I'm surprised they're not wanting to work it up as she's a bit of a metabolic anomaly isn't she! As some perspective she's in more work than my friends native who does 80Km endurance, and more work than many race horses.... What sort of recovery rate does she have?


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 June 2015)

rara007 said:



			Do the professionals know how much work she's in? I'm surprised they're not wanting to work it up as she's a bit of a metabolic anomaly isn't she!
		
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Only the farrier & saddle fitter. What do you mean by 'metabolic anomaly'?


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## rara007 (14 June 2015)

Most horses in that work look racing/end of hunt season/4* fit! Yes even natives get defined muscles.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 June 2015)

rara007 said:



			Most horses in that work look racing/end of hunt season/4* fit! Yes even natives get defined muscles.
		
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I know natives get defined muscles if they're working correctly. But she's only just started doing that work, so I don't expect that she'll have defined muscles yet.


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## ester (14 June 2015)

But she hunted, so hasn't really been 'soft'?
 Galloping for 20 mins is a long time and not something I'd want to do on all but good ground.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 June 2015)

ester said:



			But she hunted, so hasn't really been 'soft'?
 Galloping for 20 mins is a long time and not something I'd want to do on all but good ground.
		
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Oh OK, I see what rara007 means. I don't tend to gallop for 20 mins unless the ground is firm and not slippery - seen far too many horses fall out hunting because of slippery ground. If the ground is wet, I tend to substitute the galloping with hacking with hill work. And yes, she has hunted last season and the beginning of this year, but had a short holiday in late March till early April.


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## ester (14 June 2015)

by good I do mean with some cut in it. 

TBH it just reads a bit odd, those eventing on the yard would not consider jumping for 45 mins and then doing more fast work on the same day.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 June 2015)

ester said:



			by good I do mean with some cut in it. 

TBH it just reads a bit odd, those eventing on the yard would not consider jumping for 45 mins and then doing more fast work on the same day.
		
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But I'm not on an eventing yard. I'm on my own yard, I compete a bit but just have fun. I'm not a professional rider, just someone who enjoys riding & horses. I'd like to do BE on her one day, but at the moment we just have fun. The things I do aren't because she's a 4* eventer keeping fit, it's just a bit of fun for us both.

ETA, she has a 10 mins break after jumping a course, then jumps the course three times, then has a 20 min break, so all in all, including the jumping and breaks it's about 45 mins. So basically all she does is have short energy bursts, then has a rest, then does it again etc. And I add it up including the breaks, e.g jumping, rest, jumping again etc, gallop, rest, gallop rest etc. I'd never dream of jumping non-stop for 45 mins!


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## rara007 (14 June 2015)

I think Ester was trying to make the point she should look fitter than an eventer, regardless of the reason for the intense workload.


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## ester (14 June 2015)

I think you misunderstand me. I am suggesting that most people would not do that amount of fast work in a day every day (jumping/galloping every day as you say), for the longevity of their horse, even if they are competing at a relatively high level. That and you have to consider her current muscular capabilities.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 June 2015)

ester said:



			I think you misunderstand me. I am suggesting that most people would not do that amount of fast work in a day every day (jumping/galloping every day as you say), for the longevity of their horse, even if they are competing at a relatively high level. That and you have to consider her current muscular capabilities.
		
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I don't do it everyday. Grr, I've really written by OP wrong.

OK, lets try again...
One day, let's say Monday, she does schooling to start of with, then jumping for 45 mins (including all her breaks she has) That is normally 2.5 hours, as she has a good few rests, I stay on her back watching my sister ride, then she stops and I go again etc etc. The following day, she does schooling for 30 mins, then I watch my sister, adjust jumps etc, get back on, pop a small jump, walk again etc, again, added all up is about 2.5 hours. The day after that galloping for 20 mins, then help my sister do things (whilst on Sunny). You get my drift  (I hope). It all equates to 2.5ish, but a lot of the time she is just standing and walking around etc, not doing galloping or jumping without stopping. 

I could of said this in my OP, but to me it sounded too complicated to write. What I should of said was ridden 6 days a week including blah blah blah on these certain days. So sorry everyone, I think I've confused you all (I thought you'd all understand what I meant...).

Also, she's jumped about 2 to 3 days a week, not everyday.


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## PoppyAnderson (14 June 2015)

EquiEquestrian556 said:



			Thank you SA, will give her more mini nets then, and even less 'sweeties'! I did put a lot of thought into her diet, as she's not always an easy horse (can be spooky & is quite highly strung), and it was a little bit 'saddening' that people (not you) seemed to be making out that what I'm doing for her is completely wrong, so sorry to all posters who commented on this thread if my other post seemed 'defensive'.
		
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No one is saying you're doing it all wrong. It's just been suggested to you that you re-think the horses diet. We all get stuff wrong and learning is a life long thing. Your choice but why come on here and ask the question and then stamp your foot when you don't like some of the answers. Would you prefer it if everyone said, yes, it's weight is perfect, your exercise regime is perfect and you're feeding it the optimum diet.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 June 2015)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Your choice but why come on here and ask the question and then stamp your foot when you don't like some of the answers. Would you prefer it if everyone said, yes, it's weight is perfect, your exercise regime is perfect and you're feeding it the optimum diet.
		
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Sorry PA!  Part of me is saying yes to that, and the other half no. It's just that I was asking how her weight was to others (got the answer), not on her feed/ exercise - the only reason I added them was because I thought people may want to know what she was doing and on.


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## be positive (14 June 2015)

EquiEquestrian556 said:



			I don't do it everyday. Grr, I've really written by OP wrong.

OK, lets try again...
One day, let's say Monday, she does schooling to start of with, then jumping for 45 mins (including all her breaks she has) That is normally 2.5 hours, as she has a good few rests, I stay on her back watching my sister ride, then she stops and I go again etc etc. The following day, she does schooling for 30 mins, then I watch my sister, adjust jumps etc, get back on, pop a small jump, walk again etc, again, added all up is about 2.5 hours. The day after that galloping for 20 mins, then help my sister do things (whilst on Sunny). You get my drift  (I hope). It all equates to 2.5ish, but a lot of the time she is just standing and walking around etc, not doing galloping or jumping without stopping. 

I could of said this in my OP, but to me it sounded too complicated to write. What I should of said was ridden 6 days a week including blah blah blah on these certain days. So sorry everyone, I think I've confused you all (I thought you'd all understand what I meant...).

Also, she's jumped about 2 to 3 days a week, not everyday.
		
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This is far clearer and shows she is not doing so much as it seemed, it also explains to a degree why she is not as trim as expected despite a heavy work load, instead of standing around resting she would benefit far more from marching about in walk until she recovers/ cools down so the muscles continue to work but to a lesser degree. 
Getting a horse fit usually entails short bursts of energy followed by actively walking then repeating, racehorses will gallop, walk back to the start and go again several times, they will not actually stop moving until they are back in their box.
It doesn't sound as if she does much hacking, I would be concerned about jumping any equine on grass more than once a week now the ground is hard let alone galloping the same day they have jumped unless it is xc schooling, it is very easy to overdo the faster work and risk damaging them in an effort to get the weight reduced, you need to keep the weight off but not at the detriment of their feet and joints.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 June 2015)

Thank you bp. Glad this cleared things up. Re. the short energy bursts, that's exactly what I'm trying to do with her. Unless the ground is 'perfect' (does such a term exist in England?!) I don't jump more than twice a week, and if I did it would be a lot smaller than 1m. We do hack, but not a lot atm, but will be going hopefully every other day in the next week or so.

I'm really sorry, I must of confused so many of you, me saying in my OP the work she does and then saying she only does medium work!
Sorry for making a mountain out of a mole hole everyone, I sincerely didn't mean to!


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## Goldenstar (14 June 2015)

EquiEquestrian556 said:



			Stabling during the day & out at night isn't possible, as all the others are in at night, and she doesn't like to be out at night, especially on her own.  We did try the tract system, but she didn't like it at all (and neither did I), as she likes to run around in her paddock.


You say 'that much fat', so what is she to you then, obese, or?... Because I personally don't think she looks that bad, nor does the very 'weight aware' vet, farrier or saddle fitter, so perhaps it's the photos. Yes she can still (and will) lose a bit, but from what you're saying it sounds like you think she's some mortally obese pony?
		
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I am saying what I wrote , the horse is too fat to be doing the work you describe .


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 June 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I am saying what I wrote , the horse is too fat to be doing the work you describe .
		
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Please read my previous posts, I haven't described what work she did correctly.


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## SpringArising (14 June 2015)

I think some people are being a bit harsh here and looking into things far too much.

When I was the same age I did all sorts of silly things. I had two Bs who never looked quite right - one was older and suffered lami, the other was always incredibly lean, impossible to keep weight on & was highly strung. During the holidays I was always messing around; cantering a lot on hard ground, jumping with my yard friends etc. etc. and they both miraculously survived. 

The pony looks absolutely fine and I'm sure has a nice life doing lots of varied things! They are never going to be or look perfect.


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## ester (14 June 2015)

No, I too have one that will always look to have a belly unless he looks like a welfare case- he happens to have a wide ribcage. 

But I know what his condition score is and would expect a certain amount of crit/helpful advise if I posted on here. As it is I am happy he is fit and healthy and confident in my assessment of him so I don't need to. 

Sorry OP but I don't think you can post asking about condition score and then expect people not to suggest management ideas to improve it. I have certainly changed my management and feeding regime a lot over the last 10 years as I have learned things along the way and picked things up from others. It would be much better to just take things in to consideration rather than dismiss everything out of hand and getting quite antagonistic. Or just say thanks very much but I have changed her management a bit recently and think she will improve with that. It was probably unfortunate that all the times you posted about did  add up to about 2.5 hours hence the confusion.


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## ester (14 June 2015)

As a complete aside that I know you didn't ask about but  in the first pic she looks quite upright through her pasterns, matched by her shoulder angle. More upright = more susceptible to concussion as more of the force transmits up through the bones so I would advise you are bit careful on hard ground.


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## Hoof_Prints (14 June 2015)

She may have energy to do the work, but my mare is worked once or twice a week.. she's not very fit, she could easily do that workload and not come back too puffy or sweaty as she's a powerhouse who switches on "flight" mode, she is a very forward pony! She would however, end up with a tendon tear or muscle injury as she hasn't been conditioned properly- be careful with your pony as injuries are a pretty heart sinking reality! I'd expect your horse to look more toned and fitter, my own horses including super fatty good-doers look like racehorses with a bit more bone when they are hunting fit. I'm sure your pony is happy and healthy but just a warning here from someone with first hand experience, my pony was in a similar workload and shape when she tore her tendon from repeated hammering (I was not very old so didn't understand what I was doing) and I couldn't ride for months.  I've learnt that a few days off do a horse a lot of good in the long run

ETA- same as the poster above, I also picked up on that conformation and worried a little!


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 June 2015)

Yes, I noticed that her conformation looked strange on the photo. It's the ground, it's very un-level, hence her pasterns & shoulder look upright, but they aren't really. I asked my farrier about that years ago when I bought her, when she was standing on unlevel ground, and he moved her to a level bit and showed me that they weren't upright at all. Will try and find a photo of her standing on a level surface when I have a moment.


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## Gentle_Warrior (14 June 2015)

in my opinion, for that amount of work or even just schooling every day for an hour solid she does not look fit.  My 22 year old semi retired not ridden for 18 months looks like has more muscle from living out 24/7 and he has only been ridden for 20 mins in the last week for the first time in 18 months,


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## splashgirl45 (14 June 2015)

EquiEquestrian556 said:



			This photo shows her white hairs quite well. 





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I must be seeing something others aren't...I see a pony about the right weight for a leisure horse but doesn't need any more, how can you all say she is too fat????
I think she does need a bit more topline but this was said in the first post...the photo taken from behind makes her look fat in the hindquarters but this one doesn't.  you are very brave (or foolhardy) to put a photo up and ask opinions. sounds to me that you are trying very hard to do the right thing...good luck


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## ester (14 June 2015)

I don't think that is a current photo?


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## EquiEquestrian556 (15 June 2015)

ester said:



			I don't think that is a current photo? 

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Yes ester, it is a current photo. It was taken the same day I took the others last Friday), but I didn't think it was the best photo to use as she wasn't standing straight and she was looking at the camera. That is how she really looks in person though.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (15 June 2015)

Deleted as posted twice.


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## Rosesandhorses (18 June 2015)

I thought I may give you some eventing advice- I know you haven't asked for it but I would have found it helpful in your position  If you are planning to do a few one day events I would say you probably need to alter her exercise slightly. My event horse hacks out approx 3 times a week- twice for an hour doing lots of road work in work and trot to condition his legs and once for a few hours where we'll do hill work and some strong canters/gallops up hill. I will then school him twice a week for about 45 mins- an hour doing supplying work and mainly staying in trot and canter and then have one jumping lesson on a surface a week. He then has one day off. That is a normal week mid season where he's not eventing. At the start of the season I do some interval training where I trot for so many minutes then canter for some many minutes to build fitness. After an event he gets 2 days off before a slow hack on day 3 to loosen him off and then take it from there. I also feed a good joint supplement and he gets a good dose of a high protein competition mix as the protein helps build muscle. For the first event I do with a horse I prefer them to be not too fit otherwise this can cause issues in itself due to the atmosphere being a lot different to most shows. I hope this is helpful


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## Exploding Chestnuts (18 June 2015)

Sorry to carp [but that won't stop me], I am not really sure what OP wants, she is the one who can condition score the horse, which is best done with the horse in front of her. There is no right or wrong. A mature fully fit racehorse has an optimum weight plus or minus 15kg, so one can probably suggest a pony will have an optimum plus or minus 10kg.
 She suggests the pony does not have the expected/desired muscle tone but does not want advice on either diet or on exercise.

Using a weigh tape weekly will tell her whether weight is gaining or losing, if she continues to exercise in the same way the muscles will remain the same.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (18 June 2015)

I am watching the racing from Channel 4 and the horses are well covered over their hind quarters, and in the forequarters, they are not carrying any fat, but I put them as perfect ..... 2.5.
At the end of a long season you will see some NH horses running up light, they may even go to condition score 2, but they will generally be below optimum racing weight and in need of a rest, traditionally they will get two to three months at grass.
I used to condition score my standardbred because he was so slow maturing, and I kept him at over between 3 [late summer] and <2.5 when turned out in spring. If he was in light or moderate work he may have altered shape, but not necessarily altered his condition score, I used to hack all the time, and though he changed shape when he was schooled and not hacked, I would say he neither lost nor gained condition.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (19 June 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			Sorry to carp [but that won't stop me], I am not really sure what OP wants, she is the one who can condition score the horse, which is best done with the horse in front of her. There is no right or wrong. A mature fully fit racehorse has an optimum weight plus or minus 15kg, so one can probably suggest a pony will have an optimum plus or minus 10kg.
 She suggests the pony does not have the expected/desired muscle tone but does not want advice on either diet or on exercise.

Using a weigh tape weekly will tell her whether weight is gaining or losing, if she continues to exercise in the same way the muscles will remain the same.
		
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Sorry Bonkers2, I was having 'one of those days' last week. Your advice was very useful, and has been taken on-board. I wanted advice on how she was looking (which I most certainly got - verdict: fat) and will continue the diet & slowly upping her exercise, as well as incorporating some exercises to build her topline & muscle tone. 

I am already weigh taping her weekly, and I've noticed she's lost a bit since last week, which is good.

Just a question, is there any particular reason you keep comparing her to TB racers? As to me, they are two completely different horses  - TBs are naturally built much finer & skinnier, and these race, and then you have a NF who is naturally slightly more covered & rounded (no excuse for being fat though) and is heavier in build, plus does something completely different than a TB racer. I'm guessing you do something/ work with racers, hence why you mention them a lot in your posts, but it makes me interested to know why you compare my NF to a TB.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (19 June 2015)

Rosesandhorses said:



			I thought I may give you some eventing advice- I know you haven't asked for it but I would have found it helpful in your position  If you are planning to do a few one day events I would say you probably need to alter her exercise slightly. My event horse hacks out approx 3 times a week- twice for an hour doing lots of road work in work and trot to condition his legs and once for a few hours where we'll do hill work and some strong canters/gallops up hill. I will then school him twice a week for about 45 mins- an hour doing supplying work and mainly staying in trot and canter and then have one jumping lesson on a surface a week. He then has one day off. That is a normal week mid season where he's not eventing. At the start of the season I do some interval training where I trot for so many minutes then canter for some many minutes to build fitness. After an event he gets 2 days off before a slow hack on day 3 to loosen him off and then take it from there. I also feed a good joint supplement and he gets a good dose of a high protein competition mix as the protein helps build muscle. For the first event I do with a horse I prefer them to be not too fit otherwise this can cause issues in itself due to the atmosphere being a lot different to most shows. I hope this is helpful 

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RAH, thank you very much for that advice, it was indeed very helpful!  Will definitely incorporate some of the things that you do with your eventer - it's always very useful to know what people who event are doing with their eventers.  She was on a good joint supplement in the hunting season, but for some reason stopped adding it to her feed. I was going to start feeding it to her again anyway, so will start doing it again. 

Thank you for the advice!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 June 2015)

The reason I refer to the work done to condtion racehorses is that they are exercised to build muscle in the right places and they are very fit, they don't get as much work as your pony, they get as much as they need for their job. 
Also it is easy to imagine what is the ideal musculature for a fit animal as they are on  TV every day.
I did hve a NF and he was very much a mini TB rather than a large shetland.
I don't think she is fat, a term which equates to a health risk.


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## Nudibranch (20 June 2015)

I don't think she is fat, and my comment referred to her lack of muscle given what appears to be quite a heavy exercise regime. I would not up her work if she is doing everything you say she is. I would decrease the charging round small fields and increase hill work and hacking at an active walk and concentrating on a rhythmic working trot. Give her at least one day off a week so her body can recover and build muscle.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (20 June 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			The reason I refer to the work done to condtion racehorses is that they are exercised to build muscle in the right places and they are very fit, they don't get as much work as your pony, they get as much as they need for their job. 
Also it is easy to imagine what is the ideal musculature for a fit animal as they are on  TV every day.
I did hve a NF and he was very much a mini TB rather than a large shetland.
I don't think she is fat, a term which equates to a health risk.
		
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Thank you for explaining that. So what would you consider her as, a large Shetland or Mini TB? (The latter I think).


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## Nudibranch (20 June 2015)

Bear in mind a racing TB will not have the correct neck muscles for a riding horse; they build up too much underneath and lack topline between withers and ears.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (20 June 2015)

Nudibranch said:



			Bear in mind a racing TB will not have the correct neck muscles for a riding horse; they build up too much underneath and lack topline between withers and ears.
		
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I was thinking that Naduibranch. They are all 'weedy' on their necks.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 June 2015)

http://frankel.juddmonte.com/


http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/advancedsearch.php?b=210&d=328&h=n&ch=&x=43&y=6

I think you will find a good strong horse will not be weedy, the weedy TB s I see are generally in the hands of people who don't know how to condition them.


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## Goldenstar (20 June 2015)

A racing fit TB in top shape will not be weedy .


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## Nudibranch (21 June 2015)

Not weedy but incorrectly muscled on the neck for the job of a leisure horse!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (21 June 2015)

I think most people think all TBs in racing are the same, they are not, to ride a top NH horse or a flat sprinter, you will be sitting on top of a lot of horse, and the musclature of the neck will be robust not weedy. Quite often the colts will not be cut till they have muscled up anyway.

Some of them actually have a natural balanced carriage and are broken and have basic schooling before they are put in to training, not all are broken quickly and put in to training with no schooling, many are, but by no means all.

If you go to the top NH yards you will find them being loose schooled in order to teach them to jump freely, they may be ridden in draw reins when they first enter training or not, yes they will be asked to walk out on a loose rein at trot and walk, but they generally will work on the bridle [ie contact] in the canter.

The flat horses which are described on here as weedy, are of the slimline type, but they are not all like that.


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## sonjafoers (22 June 2015)

I think she looks great for a leisure horse, I agree with you that the pics give different impressions as she looks fine in the facing one but some of the others make her look like she's carrying more than enough weight - I'm guessing probbaly camera angles.

Just a question - why are you feeding Baileys Lo-Cal alongside Benevit Advance? They will both provide the vits & mins you need albeit in a different format but you are doubling up which could eventually be dangerous to her but is also costing you money which you don't need to spend. One or the other would suffice depending on whether you feel you need the protein a balancer provides.


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## sonjafoers (22 June 2015)

I think she looks great for a leisure horse, I agree with you that the pics give different impressions as she looks fine in the facing one but some of the others make her look like she's carrying more than enough weight - I'm guessing probbaly camera angles.

Just a question - why are you feeding Baileys Lo-Cal alongside Benevit Advance? They will both provide the vits & mins you need albeit in a different format but you are doubling up which could eventually be dangerous to her but is also costing you money which you don't need to spend. One or the other would suffice depending on whether you feel you need the protein a balancer provides.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (22 June 2015)

sonjafoers said:



			I think she looks great for a leisure horse, I agree with you that the pics give different impressions as she looks fine in the facing one but some of the others make her look like she's carrying more than enough weight - I'm guessing probbaly camera angles.

Just a question - why are you feeding Baileys Lo-Cal alongside Benevit Advance? They will both provide the vits & mins you need albeit in a different format but you are doubling up which could eventually be dangerous to her but is also costing you money which you don't need to spend. One or the other would suffice depending on whether you feel you need the protein a balancer provides.
		
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It may be the camera angles, TBH, I doubt I'd ever win a photography contest - my photography is pretty awful! The reason I am feeding both, is because she gets a sprinkle of Lo-Cal, more as a treat to tempt her, when she has her day off (she doesn't get B.'s C. Mix on her day off). With the amount I feed (the Lo-Cal) I'm not really worried, as it's a lot less than the recommended feeding amount from Baileys, even for a horse in light work. The Benevit Advance is the only thing that actually provides her with her vits & mins hard feed-wise, apart from literally about 5 little nuts of Lo-Cal, only fed on her day off. If I were feeding high amounts of Lo-Cal daily, then I'd definitely skip one or the other, as I agree, it would be very dangerous.


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## Fun Times (22 June 2015)

Hi EE. Going off on a tangent here but are there any racehorse gallops near you available for hire? Near us we have one you can hire for ten pound per horse in the afternoons after the racehorses have gone to bed for the day. Its all surfaced and kept in great condition and has a long pull uphill. I use it to keep my eventer fit (often just trotting up the hill mostly) and it means you can still do fast work even if the ground has turned rock hard. I think you and she would find it great fun too.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (22 June 2015)

Fun Times said:



			Hi EE. Going off on a tangent here but are there any racehorse gallops near you available for hire? Near us we have one you can hire for ten pound per horse in the afternoons after the racehorses have gone to bed for the day. Its all surfaced and kept in great condition and has a long pull uphill. I use it to keep my eventer fit (often just trotting up the hill mostly) and it means you can still do fast work even if the ground has turned rock hard. I think you and she would find it great fun too.
		
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There is only one, sadly it's about 39/ 40 miles away, so would be an occasional trip, perhaps every 6 months (if that) - not much use for keeping her fit, as that's pretty far for us, especially as our lorry only goes at 20/ 30 miles an hour along the country roads, so would be quite a trip. I'd love to take her to the gallops, think it would keep her fit, plus she (& I) would have lots of fun! Somerford Park's Farm ride is the closest 'gallop' type facility we have near us, which when we're there I go round again after jumping for a fast canter/ gallop. But again, even that is a 2.5 hour trip (30 miles).

We have an arena in the village that you can sometimes hire, however it's quite tiny (you can't really canter in it) and the sand in there isn't great. We'll be doing lots of hacking now, which we both enjoy, so that's a nice substitute if the ground is really hard. Of course it's sodden at the moment, so you can't canter much. If it's not rock hard or frozen it's a swimming pool! Typical British weather!


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## Kat (22 June 2015)

EquiEquestrian556 said:



			There is only one, sadly it's about 39/ 40 miles away, so would be an occasional trip, perhaps every 6 months (if that) - not much use for keeping her fit, as that's pretty far for us, especially as our lorry only goes at 20/ 30 miles an hour along the country roads, so would be quite a trip. I'd love to take her to the gallops, think it would keep her fit, plus she (& I) would have lots of fun! Somerford Park's Farm ride is the closest 'gallop' type facility we have near us, which when we're there I go round again after jumping for a fast canter/ gallop. But again, even that is a 2.5 hour trip (30 miles).

We have an arena in the village that you can sometimes hire, however it's quite tiny (you can't really canter in it) and the sand in there isn't great. We'll be doing lots of hacking now, which we both enjoy, so that's a nice substitute if the ground is really hard. Of course it's sodden at the moment, so you can't canter much. If it's not rock hard or frozen it's a swimming pool! Typical British weather! 

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Have you looked at Derbyshire Gallops at Mansfield? I am planning a trip soon......


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## EquiEquestrian556 (22 June 2015)

Kat said:



			Have you looked at Derbyshire Gallops at Mansfield? I am planning a trip soon......
		
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Those are the ones that our 40 miles away from us


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## Kat (22 June 2015)

EquiEquestrian556 said:



			Those are the ones that our 40 miles away from us 

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Oh that's a shame :-(


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## EquiEquestrian556 (23 June 2015)

Kat said:



			Oh that's a shame :-(
		
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I know.


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