# Lumps on spine after ridden work???



## Ginn (27 August 2008)

As the title says really. For about the last 3 months (ignoring the time I've been away), following ridden work Tilly has come up with 1 or 2 lumps that are quite firm and about the size of a bean/pea, on her spine. They aren't over the middle of the spine but on the right of center over T10 and T11. They start to go down fairly quickly once I take the saddle off, more quickly if I massage them with my fingers and don't appear to be causing her any pain as I get no reaction when I poke and prod them. They don't come up when lunged, even if lunged in her saddle or if I only ride for under 20 mins.

Her back has been looked at twice in the last 3 months and although she is slightly more muscled on the right nothing could be found (although no scans or x rays have been done as it hasn't been felt necessary). She also saw the saddler last monday and although the saddle was reflocked the saddler said that both prior to and since reflocking that bit of her back is not in any way being pinched by the saddle, even with a pad on underneath.

I have been out and invested in a sheepskin numnah without seams down the middle as I wondered if that may have been a problem if her usual numnah was pinching but the lumps still came up today when I used it. All I can think of is that maybe when I ride I am shunting the saddle over or sitting sqiffy.

Any other ideas or suggestions?[/


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## kerilli (27 August 2008)

my mare has one of these, master saddler explained it as follows:
it's a slightly weakened blood vessel, which, when pressed on either side of the spine by the panels of the saddle, leaks into the surrounding tissues which inflate like a little balloon. it is painless and disperses after 1/2 hour or so in my mare's case. happens with my mare in Wow saddle and Ideal saddles (specially fitted to her) but not in any of my Barrie Swaine saddles, most strangely. haven't tried any other makes yet!
he said it's nothing to worry about. comes up on my mare with and without prolite. only thing that prevents it under Ideal saddle is a cork saddle pad called a suberpad, but that's pretty thick and makes the saddle float too high off her back for my liking... but you might not mind that.
hope that helps!


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## GoldenWonder (27 August 2008)

my two horses get this and i was told that they are sweat glands or somthing similar??
but they too go down after half an hour
just an idea


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## Shilasdair (27 August 2008)

I think you are meaning fluidy lumps as Kerilli says, but  I thought I'd mention another problem I had with my TB mare, just in case it is relevant.
She's very active in terms of movement, and would have a lump at the back of the saddle after being ridden.  After investigation, I found out that although the saddle cloth was cotton, the binding was nylon, and she was getting a friction burn where the binding was moving from side to side over her spine.
S


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## niagaraduval (28 August 2008)

Horses get these from Ill fitting saddles. They are fluid lumps under the skin, they're cause by the way the saddle moves as the horse works. 
A correctly fitting saddle won't move as the horse moves forward/turns/accelerates etc..


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## CBAnglo (29 August 2008)

True, an ill fitting saddle can cause lumps to form and they will be permanent - they are basically cellulite lumps.

The ones that disappear after 30 mins are as Kerilli explained, sometimes caused by weakened blood vessels.  Other times it can also be caused by sweat.

A correctly fitting saddle actually does have to move with the horse - you can imagine that the horse's back is flexible and moving from left to right.  If the saddle were clamped down on the back it wouldnt allow this side to side movement.  The saddle however should not slip from side to side or back to front.


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## Ginn (30 August 2008)

Kerilli - that's really interesting, are the lumps on your mare quite hard/firm? I find the prolite floats the saddle too high so not sure the cork would work but definately something to bare in mind.


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## Ginn (30 August 2008)

Happens even if I use nothing under the saddle Shils, although I have invested in a really nice sheepskin in the hope that might help - which it hasn't. The first time it happened I thought it was just the saddle pad rubbing but it would appear not.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Would be so much easier to fix if that was the case


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## CLB (12 September 2008)

My Warmblood has the same sounding lumps that have just started to come up after I ride, and then disapear again after a few mins.  The lumps seem to cause no pain and just look horrible.  I have had a saddler out twice and have been told both of my saddles fit him...I have an ideal saddle also and a Field house one and not sure what best to do next??


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## flyingfeet (12 September 2008)

Odema on the spine is quite common 

The theory which everyone seems to favour is as follows:

The problem tends to show itself in horses doing work of a longer duration than they are usually used to (i.e. a longer weekend ride rather than a weekday "around the block" fitness ride) or when they are starting work after a period without work.  It often happens with horse doing endurance work when the rider moves from doing say 20 mile rides up to 40 miles without having done sufficient preparation work for the longer distance and generally in summer (hotter weather).  It also tends to show itself on horses where the saddle appears, and does, fit very well.

The horse has a very small tissue weakness in the capillaries running in the soft tissues along the bearing surface of the back. This weakness may have been caused by bruising i.e. rolling on a stone when in a field, a bite by another horse, or, the horse may just have been born with it.  The weakness is not life threatening and would normally not manifest itself. 

When one starts working the horse its blood pressure will rise proportionately to the fitness of the horse, the amount of work it is doing and the temperature of both the horse and the environment the horse is working in. The heart will beat harder increasing the speed of circulation of the blood flow responding to the work being demanded of the horse.

The saddle exerts pressure on the horses back.  The better the fit the more even the pressure.  With Flair the saddle exerts low but very consistent pressure across the whole of the bearing surface because the panel can flex and mould with the movement of the horse's back muscles.  With a flocked panel the pressure will vary across the panel because flocking cannot mould as the horse changes shape. As the horse moves and the back muscles constrict and extend so touching and then not touching the saddle panel.  The better the fit the more even the pressure.

Due to the increased blood pressure the blood plasma (clear fluid)in the bloodstream may leak slightly from the capillaries where there is a slight tissue weakness.  Due to the even pressure bearing on the horse's back this fluid moves to the area of least resistance which may be either the tissues over the spine where the saddle doesn't touch due to the gullet clearance or occasionally to an area adjacent the saddle's bearing surface - for instance on some saddles the gap between the flap and the panel.

Placing a nummah or pad under the saddle may or may not make the swellings disappear or simply move the swelling to a different location.  Placing pads under the saddle will effect the fit of the saddle and often actually reduces the consistency of the bearing surface so creating high and low pressure points which will be more uncomfortable for the horse but possibly allows plasma leakage to disperse without creating a visible swelling.  Alternatively and probably more likely, the nummah by being pulled tight over the horse's spine creates enough high pressure to prevent the swellings in the first place.

The swellings caused such plasma leakage tend to disperse slowly over a period of time (approx. 10 minutes-4 hours on average) as the fluid is reabsorbed into the capillaries when the blood pressure reduces after exercise.


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## GillynMilly (10 October 2011)

hi, i have just finaly joined this site and am hoping that this thread is still going?! i am having this problem and have been told the same thing, leaky blood vessel. having tried every different saddle and numnah combination i can lay my hands on, the only time the lump dosnt appear is when ridden in western or treeless. speaking to a vet, he said it wont come up when in those types as the pressure is over the whole area and there isnt therefore any space for the lump to come up, makes perfect sense. however is the leaking still happening? the main question is, does it matter if its leaking anyway? there is obviously pressure and movement of some kind to cause/allow the swelling, which none of us want. have been told by another vet that the blood will be going into the surrounding soft tissue and shouldnt be causing any problems. i wander though, vessels are there to contain the blood afterall! could it lead to problems in the future? cause a vessel to burst eventually? or am i being paranoid now?!! having not had the bump appear with treeless and western, obviously thought had solved the problem, but is it just hiding it instead?  i am due my own vet out soon for vacs and will ask his opinion, and am wandering to contact master saddlers ass' to see if they have any ideas. will post any news and would really appreciate any other ideas and comments, has anyone got any further with this problem?


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## KentOsteo (12 October 2011)

Hello.  Make sure you take a look at the gullet width of your saddle, as well as angle of the panels (i.e. are they sloped upwards to the gullet, or more flat as they should be).  The gullet need to be wide enough - all the way through - to clear the transverse processes of the spine, so at least 4-5cm. Check it for any crookedness - or it will be pinching the spinal ligaments, and creating pressure points.


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## HorseyJennie (27 October 2011)

Ditto above. I have a beautiful Anteres saddle which stopped it with mine - but it fits perfectly, the pannels distribute pressure very well and there is a much wider space between the pads that run either side of the spine. A lot of older/cheaper sadles tend to have quite hard flocking in much harder leather with narrower pannels that also lie closer to the spine.

I know horses cost a fortune as it is but it is well worth investing in a really good second hand saddle and becasue it is already second hand it will hold its value well. 

Day to day I also use a sheepskin numnah and a thin gel pad - he's a weak backed nightmare but the combination of the saddle and the padding seem to keep him happy.

Jen x


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