# When to use Equest Pramox?



## katherine1975 (27 January 2012)

I have worm counts done on my horses and know that they don't show red worms or tapeworms. The counts always come back clear, we poo pick everyday and have the same two horses living together all the time. I wormed them for tapeworms in Oct/Nov. When are you supposed to worm for red worms? Was going to use Pramox to cover everything.


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## lachlanandmarcus (27 January 2012)

Early winter I think but any time in the dormant period better than later on, so now would be fine.

But I would query using Pramox as you have already tapewormed them - for small redworms standard Equest or an equivalent would be more appropriate as the extra bit in Pramox is for tapeworms.

Pramox is very powerful and some horses dont cope too well with it, so given you have tapewormed already I would avoid. But your call )

Edited to add, you say your worm counts dont show tapeworm. Tapeworm isnt normally picked up in worm counts, it's like encysted redworm in that respect, tho you might get a result by chance. . So you did the right thing by worming for tapeworm and encysted redworm (you could alternatively blood test for tapeworm and then only tapewormer them if it is positive), but dont rely on the worm count for either.


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## Borderreiver (27 January 2012)

If you have already wormed for tapeworm in the autumn then you don't need Pramox now, just use plain Equest, back to counts in three months time.


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## L&M (27 January 2012)

I use Pramox (blue box) spring and autumn, and the Equest (green box)winter and summer...


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## GinaGem (27 January 2012)

I've just wormed with Equest on the advice of Wormers Direct.  I do worm counts too.  If you aren't sure they are very good if you ring them.


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## Miss L Toe (27 January 2012)

I always ask for advice from worming specialists [wormers online for me and Westgate Labs for egg counts], you need your wormer history for two years,
I used Equivalan Duo last November [£18.00], no side effects, free weigh tape.
The yard I am at is very keen on chemicals, I am not, but their next wormer is  Panacur Five Day in February [£22], I suspect they use a vets advice, yes those very vets who have been pumping the chemicals in for years without any thought of resistance or chemical side-effects.


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## Ladydragon (27 January 2012)

We've just used Equest green box...

If you've already tape wormed I don't see the need for Pramox...


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## alsiola (27 January 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			yes those very vets who have been pumping the chemicals in for years without any thought of resistance or chemical side-effects.
		
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Most of the vets I know are fighting a constant battle to reduce the amount of wormers used.  Unfortunately the companies that make wormers don't help with their large advertising campaigns of misinformation, and "handy" year packs of 4xEquest.


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## lachlanandmarcus (27 January 2012)

Its a bit of both: some of the vets dont have a lot of detailed knowledge for sure, eg about what ingedients are in what brand. 

I had equested for small encysted redworm in the autumn and then one horse had a positive blood test for tapeworm. Wanted to use a different chemical than last time to try and shift the tapes but she told me to use Pramox which actually had the same ingredient for tapes as the one I had already used AND on a colic-y horse who reacts badly to wormers (hence steering clear of Pramox anyway)  AND despite me saying I had already wormed for encysted redworm 4 weeks back with Equest. She said it was a different ingredient for tapes but I checked and no-oh it wasnt!

So it's not just the wormer companies tho I think they are pretty bad too - noone should be blindly using Equest/Pramox all year round year in year out and more than anyone should be never ever worming their horses; we all have to get to be experts to make sure we only worm if needed but also do worm with the right thing at the correct dose. 

Some of the internet wormer sales sites have good guides online as to what does what and whats in everything and so do the worm count people if you are a customer of theirs. So theres no reason we can't master the degree in plop-ology tho it is a bit complicated to start with.


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## alsiola (27 January 2012)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			I had equested for small encysted redworm in the autumn and then one horse had a positive blood test for tapeworm. Wanted to use a different chemical than last time to try and shift the tapes but she told me to use Pramox which actually had the same ingredient for tapes as the one I had already used AND on a colic-y horse who reacts badly to wormers (hence steering clear of Pramox anyway)  AND despite me saying I had already wormed for encysted redworm 4 weeks back with Equest. She said it was a different ingredient for tapes but I checked and no-oh it wasnt!
		
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If you used plain Equest for encysted redworm then this is not a product with any efficacy against tapeworms.  Equest Pramox contains the same wormer as normal Equest (moxidectin), but with praziquantel in addition for tapeworms.  

The blood test for tapeworms is an ELISA that tests for antibodies to tapeworms, not for tapeworms themselves.  If a horse has a high tapeworm burden then it will have a high antibody level when tested.  However, a horse that had a high tapeworm burden that was recently killed by wormer will also have a high antibody level when tested, as it takes time (weeks to months) for antibody levels to decrease.  If you had previously dosed with praziquantel, which is an extremely effective drug for tapes, with little to no resistance reported, the most likely situation is that your horse had previously had a high tapeworm burden, that had been effectively cleared by the wormer, but that his/her antibody level had not yet decreased to a normal level.


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## xxRachelxx (27 January 2012)

To get good advice you need to speak to an SQP. To sell wormers (on-line or in a shop) the person selling must be qualified (this is law).

Therefore go to your local tack shop that sells wormers and ask to talk to the SQP. They will have up-to-date info and can give you impartial advice.

I am an SQP in a tack shop and it's nice when people come in and ask for advice rather than just sticking to what they have always done 

As to the question you asked the info you have been given so far is right. Worm for tapeworm in Spring or Autumn and Encysted Red worm in late Dec/early Jan. You can use equest or 5 day panacur for the red worm


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## lachlanandmarcus (29 January 2012)

alsiola said:



			If you used plain Equest for encysted redworm then this is not a product with any efficacy against tapeworms.  Equest Pramox contains the same wormer as normal Equest (moxidectin), but with praziquantel in addition for tapeworms.  

The blood test for tapeworms is an ELISA that tests for antibodies to tapeworms, not for tapeworms themselves.  If a horse has a high tapeworm burden then it will have a high antibody level when tested.  However, a horse that had a high tapeworm burden that was recently killed by wormer will also have a high antibody level when tested, as it takes time (weeks to months) for antibody levels to decrease.  If you had previously dosed with praziquantel, which is an extremely effective drug for tapes, with little to no resistance reported, the most likely situation is that your horse had previously had a high tapeworm burden, that had been effectively cleared by the wormer, but that his/her antibody level had not yet decreased to a normal level.
		
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Thanks for that, I probably wasnt as clear as I thought in my post. Useful info about the antibody levels tho, thankyou!

I know Equest doesnt tackle tapeworm, post above was saying (trying to!) vet was recommending Pramox despite it containing the same tapewormer that had been used previously (I should have clarified more that this tapeworming was after last blood test last year not recently tho, so antibodies not relevant) and despite me having (separately) wormed for encysted redworm  (with Equest,this was recently, say 6 weeks ago). 

The blood test result for tapeworm was 2 weeks ago ie pre the tapeworming this year, again antibodies not affected as it was nearly a year since the last tapeworm treatment at that point.

I have now tapewormed with Embotape (double dose) which has different tapewormer to the one that didnt clear it (it seems) last year; will blood test again but bearing what you say about antibodies I will probably wait until March or April to do that.

NB I have never seen any tapeworms in this horses poop, either generally or after tapeworming (and I do poo pick meticulously). My other pony comes back with negative result.


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## kylee86 (29 January 2012)

does red worm show on egg counts im all over the place with worming after buying colt that had tape worm and pin worms he has had eques equest pramox a wormer up bum and hes just finished 5 day panicure all advised by vet. as nothing was shifting these worms. im thinking hes all clear now not seen aany worms for a week so when do i start back egg counts and when would be best to start back worming


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## ILuvCowparsely (29 January 2012)

I buy mine from here

http://www.hadrianequine.co.uk/horse-wormers-1-c.asp

 questions and answers here 

http://www.hadrianequine.co.uk/advice-and-frequently-asked-questions-4-w.asp

http://horsehints.org/EquineWormingSchedule.htm


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## applecart14 (29 January 2012)

We've just wormed ours now on Friday.  Poor horse had trip in trailer to vets for his flu and tet which was given in the trailer as it saves unloading him.  Then back to the yard for a double dose of Equest!  Good as gold.

Don't think he was very happy with life.


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## James6 (29 January 2012)

Mine had a really bad bout of diarrhoea with the Pramox. Vet suggested double dose Strongid-P and if the same reaction then blood test for tapeworm count.  Luckily she had no reaction to this. Normally I just use worm counts as advised by my vet


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## lannerch (29 January 2012)

Why would you double dose with equest?


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## lachlanandmarcus (29 January 2012)

lannerch said:



			Why would you double dose with equest?
		
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Just what I was wondering? Double dose is only for certain products which are effective against tapeworms but only at double the wormer dose (like the Embotape I just used for tapes). Equest isnt a tapewormer and doesnt recommend double doses for anything AFAIK.


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## lachlanandmarcus (29 January 2012)

James6 said:



			Mine had a really bad bout of diarrhoea with the Pramox. Vet suggested double dose Strongid-P and if the same reaction then blood test for tapeworm count.  Luckily she had no reaction to this. Normally I just use worm counts as advised by my vet
		
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Worm counts dont normally show up tapes, so you have to blood test or routinely worm for them. 

Some straight tapewormers have the same ingredient as Pramox (praziquantel), so you shouldnt need to use Pramox in order to 'get' that ingredient into your horse if he isnt coping well with it. For eg Equitape uses it too.

The Strong-ID has the other main ingredient that acts against tapes, pyrantel. As does Pyratape and Embotape. For tapes these products are given at double dose.

So I think you did the right thing moving away from Pramox to a targeted tapewormer, just bear in mind that you have also moved to the other active ingredient against tapeworms .

It might be worthwhile still doing the blood test in a few months (need to give antibodies time to settle down) to check that it worked.


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## applecart14 (29 January 2012)

lannerch said:



			Why would you double dose with equest?
		
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Sorry I don't mean double dose.  I mean give a syringe plus a bit extra from a second syringe as horse horse weighs 150KG more than one syringe can dose.  Just easier to say double dose.  He usually shares half a wormer with the horse next door and has one to himself.  

Doesn't make life easy though when he knows there's a second syringe to come!


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## James6 (29 January 2012)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			Worm counts dont normally show up tapes, so you have to blood test or routinely worm for them. 

Some straight tapewormers have the same ingredient as Pramox (praziquantel), so you shouldnt need to use Pramox in order to 'get' that ingredient into your horse if he isnt coping well with it. For eg Equitape uses it too.

The Strong-ID has the other main ingredient that acts against tapes, pyrantel. As does Pyratape and Embotape. For tapes these products are given at double dose.

So I think you did the right thing moving away from Pramox to a targeted tapewormer, just bear in mind that you have also moved to the other active ingredient against tapeworms .

It might be worthwhile still doing the blood test in a few months (need to give antibodies time to settle down) to check that it worked.
		
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Thanks, she also had the same reaction with Equitape but I didn't realise that they both had the same active ingredient!
Will speak to my vet about a blood test in a few months. Thanks


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## lachlanandmarcus (29 January 2012)

applecart14 said:



			Sorry I don't mean double dose.  I mean give a syringe plus a bit extra from a second syringe as horse horse weighs 150KG more than one syringe can dose.  Just easier to say double dose.  He usually shares half a wormer with the horse next door and has one to himself.  

Doesn't make life easy though when he knows there's a second syringe to come! 

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Ah that makes complete sense, my big chap has extra too. Which means when I am pyrantel tapeworming (which is double dose) he goes onto a 3rd tube.....even less element of surprise....as he's 17 hands and built like an outside toilet it's easy for him to stick his head in the air and try and spit it all on you before you get to no 3 )))


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## applecart14 (30 January 2012)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			Ah that makes complete sense, my big chap has extra too. Which means when I am pyrantel tapeworming (which is double dose) he goes onto a 3rd tube.....even less element of surprise....as he's 17 hands and built like an outside toilet it's easy for him to stick his head in the air and try and spit it all on you before you get to no 3 )))
		
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It is hard I know.  Bailey is quite good though and will let me grab his tongue and hold it to the side so I can squirt it down his throat.


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