# overbreeding? what do you think?



## Megibo (3 June 2011)

before i get any angry people replying just let me explain. 
what i want to know is, why do people keep mares in foal? e.g i've read a few posts on here and knew someone once that had a mare with a newborn foal at foot and were planning to have them put back in foal as soon as they could afterwards. is that not very tough on the mare?
and also a post where someone said that the foal was the mares 12th and another where it was her 18th baby! is there not a limit before it becomes too much or does it depend on the health and quality of life the mare has?
now, i would just like to say that on this part of the forum there are (obviously) very very experienced breeders and if the mare is put back in foal she has a 3 week break after birth etc and the mare is given the correct care so she stays happy and doesnt get pulled down etc. thats fine.
but it seems like there are people (*not on here*) who just keep their mares in foal, sometimes as just baby makers and will do it til the mare is no longer fertile enough and then its the knackers for her! 

whats your view of that ?

and also, to the experienced breeders, if you have your mares in foal every year do you ever give them a year out or just come to a point where she has no more babies based on your own assessment of the mare?

please no angry replies as i am just curious and would like peoples thoughts on things like this.


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## Revena (3 June 2011)

Personally, I like to give my mares a rest and I breed them every other year.  This is also due to the fact that I am very much a hobby breeder, I cannot afford to put them in foal every year and I would not have the time to do the youngsters justice on top of work and other commitments.  I also do not have the space to keep the youngster so would have to sell some foals at weaning, I would not like this as I like to know that they are well handled when they move on and on a sentimental basis, I like to see what they turn into. 
I can absolutely understand people putting a mare in foal every year.  If a mare is kept healthy and up to weight I see no reason why there would be a problem.  I believe I am right in saying that this is what would happen in the wild?! (I'm happy to be corrected, I'm always interested in learning more!)


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## eventrider23 (3 June 2011)

I have a livery mare who was only bought by her current owner in foal this year and yes this is her 12th (she is 17 now) and yes she is putting back in foal this year as will sell the foal she has in her at mo (has a buyer waiting) and planning on the next being a keeper for herself as a hunter.....whether she breeds again after that or not will be up to her but I doubt she will have many more as she essentially wants to get something for herself alone from her.


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## Megibo (3 June 2011)

Revena said:



			Personally, I like to give my mares a rest and I breed them every other year.  This is also due to the fact that I am very much a hobby breeder, I cannot afford to put them in foal every year and I would not have the time to do the youngsters justice on top of work and other commitments.  I also do not have the space to keep the youngster so would have to sell some foals at weaning, I would not like this as I like to know that they are well handled when they move on and on a sentimental basis, I like to see what they turn into. 
I can absolutely understand people putting a mare in foal every year.  If a mare is kept healthy and up to weight I see no reason why there would be a problem.  I believe I am right in saying that this is what would happen in the wild?! (I'm happy to be corrected, I'm always interested in learning more!)
		
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That's understandable 
good point actually, now you mention it! apparently a mare will be driven out of a herd if she is the right age but wont allow herself to be covered yearly..i guess the main thing is when it happens to domesticated horses but purely for the money-and i mean like proper breeders and hobby breeders may produce to sell but its done properly unlike some others who breed for the sake of it from anything year after year. i remember reading a story of someone who went to the sales of a 2 year old with a foal at foot, and the gypsy owner was delited that the foal was a filly as it meant another foal-making machine as soon as it would be old enough


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## Megibo (3 June 2011)

eventrider23 said:



			I have a livery mare who was only bought by her current owner in foal this year and yes this is her 12th (she is 17 now) and yes she is putting back in foal this year as will sell the foal she has in her at mo (has a buyer waiting) and planning on the next being a keeper for herself as a hunter.....whether she breeds again after that or not will be up to her but I doubt she will have many more as she essentially wants to get something for herself alone from her.
		
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but at least she's already planned for the unborn foal's future. and if she does breed her again she's breeding to keep. i guess people have different views but if you have more than one broodmare why make each one have at least 12 babies? but as i said-proper breeders look after their mares and i've read on a few posts that some leave it up to the mares as to whether or not they put them back in foal, and if not most go to loan homes for some reasons or just retire in the field


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## volatis (4 June 2011)

Actually with older mares, keeping them in foal each year is often better for them reproductively than leaving them empty. I know plenty of breeders who have rested an older mare for a year or two and then been unable to get her back in foal afterwards.


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## Megibo (4 June 2011)

volatis said:



			Actually with older mares, keeping them in foal each year is often better for them reproductively than leaving them empty. I know plenty of breeders who have rested an older mare for a year or two and then been unable to get her back in foal afterwards.
		
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if she'd had plenty of foals in the past though why the need to breed her again? is it done because of her bloodline, no other broodmares etc..? she throws a certain quality foal the owner wants to keep getting till she cant have any more foals?


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## volatis (4 June 2011)

I cant speak for the particular breeder you are refering to, but if you are a commercial breeder (big or small) then you hopefully have some broodmares that you feel have the qualities you want in your stock, and so you continue to bred foals from them. I know one of my mares venezia, has been a career broodmare (now 17) and her dam Vabanque was having foals in her 20s without problems. Its a super mother line and both mares have been producing excellent foals, so if they are fit and healthy, you continue to breed from them


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## Touchwood (4 June 2011)

Why would you breed from them in the first place if they were not good enough to be bred from?

My girls are career broodmares now, so that is their job!  If they need it, they will get a year off but they rarely do - I gave one a year off as she foaled quite late, and she does have a tendancy to get pulled down by her foals, so I didn't want her back in foal when she had already had a late weaning.  She got covered nice and early this year and is straight back in foal, so I will suspect she will have another 3 on the trot like last time.  She's one of my best mares, produces fantastic offspring, is graded with multiple societies and has bloodlines that I really value as part of my breeding program - as a commercial breeder, why would I want to lose a year from her unnecessarily?


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## Megibo (4 June 2011)

Touchwood said:



			Why would you breed from them in the first place if they were not good enough to be bred from?

My girls are career broodmares now, so that is their job!  If they need it, they will get a year off but they rarely do - I gave one a year off as she foaled quite late, and she does have a tendancy to get pulled down by her foals, so I didn't want her back in foal when she had already had a late weaning.  She got covered nice and early this year and is straight back in foal, so I will suspect she will have another 3 on the trot like last time.  She's one of my best mares, produces fantastic offspring, is graded with multiple societies and has bloodlines that I really value as part of my breeding program - as a commercial breeder, why would I want to lose a year from her unnecessarily?
		
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well thats the problem really isnt it, the unscrupulous ones who just do it. 

There's no problem at all if the mare is fit, healthy and that is their purpose. it seems that when mares are constantly pregnant its detrimental and just a big production line of foals year after year-but as i've said, if the mare is healthy and happy to be a mum every year there's no issue really. also if the breeding is well thought out etc and there is purpose behind it. as someone else stated that is what happens in the wild (they have a foal every year) and it's natural for those mares to have them-and if they dont have a foal at foot it was the mares choice or she's too old for it. what's annoying is when people have their mares constantly pregnant which must be tiring just so they can have foals year after year and make money from it-and of course the mares don't have a say in whether they have babies or not.
however, i am talking about those types of breeders, *NOT* about any of the breeders on here because to date everyone who has bred a foal/foals on here have purpose behind it, either cause they're a 'business' or they want a baby to keep. my main way of thinking is of horses carelessly run with a stallion all the time and surplus of horses being created-there arent enough homes for them all as it is-i believe there is someone on here who used to work for a stud and thats how they did it (stallion loose with the mares) which was more natural, but again it was all planned and done responsibly etc etc
so when horses are bred with the future of the foal already sorted, and the mare is happy and healthy, there's no problem.


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## pintoarabian (4 June 2011)

This is my personal viewpoint and it is not intended to be critical of anyone who has different views or circumstances. I have a number of top quality mares here, some retired now but more than a few of breeding age. Since 2008, I have only bred 1 foal(retained) and have only put 1 in foal for next year (to be retained). I refuse to churn out foals to saturate an already flooded market. I like to think I am a responsible breeder and will only breed if i can guarantee the foal's future. The maximum number of foals I have bred from one mare is 5. That works for me. All of the mares I've bred from enjoy having foals but I have to be sensible.


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## Megibo (4 June 2011)

that does illustrate the point i was trying to make, in some sense or another. it's perfectly reasonable but of course as you say everyone has different viewpoints etc

i plan to breed from my mare one day but only because she's a nice mare, we've been told by welsh people she's got good breeding and is an overall good mare. also good temperament etc and any foal she does have will be kept, with no intention of selling it


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## Eothain (8 June 2011)

I breed from 5 mares. They have a job to do. That's why I have them. 5 mares, 5 foals please. It costs as much to feed a barren mare as it does to feed an in foal mare. My mares are professional mothers. There's no sentimental value. Just the big picture. Does that make me heartless? Maybe! But my mares must get foals on the ground every year or they are a liability. There's none of this pink-fluffy-give the poor mare a year off nonsense for me


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## hippomaniac (8 June 2011)

Eothain said:



			I breed from 5 mares. They have a job to do. That's why I have them. 5 mares, 5 foals please. It costs as much to feed a barren mare as it does to feed an in foal mare. My mares are professional mothers. There's no sentimental value. Just the big picture. Does that make me heartless? Maybe! But my mares must get foals on the ground every year or they are a liability. There's none of this pink-fluffy-give the poor mare a year off nonsense for me
		
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People do forget that to run a stud it has to be profitable and that does mean mares have to produce foals as this is profit,  I have a mare that is very unhappy if she does not have a foal on her and is always blooming when in foal. However we can still get pink and fluffy and sentimental, that is human nature.


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## Bertthefrog (8 June 2011)

Professional studs, produce quality foals, from quality, successful mares and stallions. The horse's welfare is paramount, to ensure a quality product. That way the foal is valuable and will sell.

The issue isn't with this end of breeding. It is with those using poor stallions and poor mares, that breed with no disease precautions, or with any thought for the health and future of the offspring, It is done purely for status, and to make money. The foals end up at auction, sell for a pittance and add to the already increasing numbers of low quality equines that generally end up either neglected or at the abbattoir. Fillies are covered the minute they come into season. 

This, and the individuals that have a substandard, lame or unrideable mare, and decide - to "give it a chance"........to produce another lame or problematic foal....

What are the answers - no idea sadly. Although at the moment I do think a cull may be the way forward. Problem is - how do get hold of the horses that shouldn't be bred from?? Stallion licensing not an answer either, as the ones that abide by the rules are usually the legitimate, conscientious breeder anyway! 


Arrrrggghhhhh 

.....and relax.


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## nokia (8 June 2011)

Im glad im not a horse...and i am glad you dont own me you sound ruthless !!! 

Thing is their are to many people breeding horses...their are far to many stallion and not enough buyers.

Their are to many studs these days..to much choice..i dont understand why people continue to produce foals.

The goverment will have to act soon..i hope they impose a big tax to stop the overbreeding in the UK...I think 1500 pounds per foal would be a good plan...would make people think twice.


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## Eothain (9 June 2011)

While also crippling an already struggling industry. Good job with that! When the auxillary jobs in the Equine sector are lost, you can pat yourself on the back.

Was it me you were calling ruthless? Am I ruthless? Perhaps I am, but hey, business is business


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## flyingcolors (9 June 2011)

There are far too many horses bred from non approved stock, mares that should not be bred and stallions that have no approval.


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## Tiny Fluffy Coblet (9 June 2011)

This is not aimed at anyone here just a comment that came to me while horse (window) shopping. Every now and again I browse the various horse for sale websites for horses under a grand because I could afford them, unfortunately I still couldn't afford to keep one but oh well.

The point of my post is that a lot of these ponies going for 300, 400, 500, 600 quid are really nice. Mostly young-stock between 2 and 6, often the older ones are green-broke. TB/pony crosses, nice looking tall ponies, Welsh Ds with decent conformation. The more worrying thing is that many of these cheap ponies are mares being marketed as 'Broodmare/riding horse' often with one or two foals on the ground at 5. If the mares are going for 500 quid or less what the HELL are people doing breeding them or advertising them as broodmares. There are even young pure Arabs, PB Arabs, registered ponies, registered TB crosses going for 500-1000. 

If you want to breed then take a look at the bargain bins, if horses or ponies with similar breeding/type to what you are breeding are in there DON'T. Believe it or not even the pretty colours are in there, Palomino 'proven broodmares', Spotted ponies, Tri-Coloureds, Duns, Buckskins, all for under a grand. And guess what takes a very similar pony up to the next price bracket.......training. A dead broke kid safe 14hh half decent 6yo Welsh is going for double or more than the 500 quid the green-broke, 'broodmare prospect' 14hh half decent 6yo Welsh.


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## GinnieRedwings (9 June 2011)

Tazhazzamoose said:



			what's annoying is when people have their mares constantly pregnant which must be tiring just so they can have foals year after year and make money from it-and of course the mares don't have a say in whether they have babies or not.
		
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Sorry, but that had me rolling on the floor laughing.... 

Not wanting to be patronising but I really can't put this in a way that won't be, so I apologise in advance - everyone is entitled to their opinion of course. 

Why is it people always want to attribute human feelings to animals??? 

Mares WANT to have babies every year for 2 reasons:
1- their hormones are telling them to - I would argue it is a lot more cruel to let mares suffer mood swings and sometimes pain, expecting them to carry on working/performing through cycle after cycle, than have them what they are designed to do... make babies! 
2- all animals have the 2 genetically engrained NEEDS to survive themselves as an individual and reproduce to ensure the survival of their species. If it wasn't the case in horses, then there would now be no horses...

It must be tiring???? Well going round Badminton is tiring, and a damn sight less natural!!!

And back to the REAL world. Eothain is absolutely right, business is business. Provided there are no welfare issues, a broodmare's job is to have babies. Like a riding horse's job is to work under saddle. Once a horse can no longer perform the job it is meant to do, for whatever reason, then yes, it ought to be put down.

I am not being unkind or cruel. I am being realistic. How many ads are there out there for ex-riding horses as light hacks or companions? Honestly, who can afford to have an ex-racing TB as a companion??? Because people cannot afford to keep them as field ornaments and they haven't got the guts to make the decision to have them put down, those horses get passed from pillar to post, buted up to the eyeballs & sold on and on by unscrupulous dealers. Now, THAT's cruel.

Before I get slaughtered, I myself own 2 mares and a gelding pony who, if it wasn't for my intervention, would have been glue a long time ago. But I only took them on because I could see a purpose for them. One was a very talented SJ with excellent bloodlines and she had 2 beautiful babies for me. She is now back in ridden work and doing well. The other is an ex-racing TB, who after a lot of dedicated work, has turned out to be a very good little riding horse. The pony I bought as a completely wild unhandled 3 year old at the Watton horse sales, 11 years ago. He is a great riding pony and a steadfast companion for the youngsters.

But, had any of them turned out to prove me wrong about their potential usefulness - and I do give them a lot of chances - then they would have been put down. Why pass on your problems to someone else? That's not fair to the horse.

I have said this before and will repeat it til I'm blue in the face. With the exception of the indiscriminate gypsy breeders, breeding less is not an answer to the equine overpopulation. Well-trained, sane, talented horses are as rare as hen's teeth and fly off the shelf with enormous price tags. The vast majority of horses that cannot find a home have been damaged one way or another and may or may not ever have a useful job to perform. 

I think people need to have the guts to recognise the fact that their horse no longer has a use, and do what's needed, that would be part of the answer to horse overpopulation...


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## LMsporthorses (9 June 2011)

Eothain said:



			I breed from 5 mares. They have a job to do. That's why I have them. 5 mares, 5 foals please. It costs as much to feed a barren mare as it does to feed an in foal mare. My mares are professional mothers. There's no sentimental value. Just the big picture. Does that make me heartless? Maybe! But my mares must get foals on the ground every year or they are a liability. There's none of this pink-fluffy-give the poor mare a year off nonsense for me
		
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Here Here...

Completely agree... A year off to do what ???? Nothing other than get fat in a field (and probably develop laminitis or other problems), I'm sure if a mare could talk thay would choose a life of having foals as opposed to being ridden and stabled all the time.

I used to work at a large stud in Ireland and the mares were there to do a job and were all well looked after and were happy as larry in the field all year round. 
Think the whole resting mares is more to make humans feel better than the horses. My mare loves having a foal at foot and only because I cant afford to breed again (she has produced 2 beautiful foals) next year, I haven't put her in foal again. I'm gonna bring her back in to work for a couple of years as she is only 11. then in about 3/4 years i will put her back in  foal again and she can breed for as long as she is able as far as I'm concerned, especially if she keeps producing quality foals like she has been doing!!


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## nokia (9 June 2011)

Business is Business are you lot for real ? We are talking about foals here..you are not on the Apprentice.

You are producing foals for a totally overcrowded market place...high class foals may of once been sold for high prices are not reaching these prices anymore.

Im stick of visiting Brightwells sales and seeing horses in appaling conditions..reading about the uk problem of overbreeding in this country and IE and yet people keep breeding.

You can get a great woodlander foal for great prices these days...their aint the market their used to be...people are skint ...horses are to expensive...people dont want horses

I hope the goverment starts a foal tax that will put breeders of producing more unwanted babies


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## stolensilver (9 June 2011)

The market is still there if you are breeding what people want to buy. I sold last year's foal to a great eventing home and they want to buy this years foal off me as well. The only problem is that I want to keep this year's foal for myself!


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## Mugsgame (9 June 2011)

nokia said:



			Business is Business are you lot for real ? We are talking about foals here..you are not on the Apprentice.

You are producing foals for a totally overcrowded market place...high class foals may of once been sold for high prices are not reaching these prices anymore.

Im stick of visiting Brightwells sales and seeing horses in appaling conditions..reading about the uk problem of overbreeding in this country and IE and yet people keep breeding.

You can get a great woodlander foal for great prices these days...their aint the market their used to be...people are skint ...horses are to expensive...people dont want horses

I hope the goverment starts a foal tax that will put breeders of producing more unwanted babies
		
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Brilliant stuff!!  Yes, of course all the responsible breeders should be slapped with a tax because of the 'recession' and because people are skint!!  This will sove ALL the problems!  Bound to  .  

Speaking about the market and the general horse population - I agree with a lot of what Ginnie R says, its not just about the breeding, it is also about the rest of life and use of these animals.

As for broodmares having foals every year - why not?  If they are fit and well, looked after properly - what makes them any different to other horses used for jobs?  Hunting?  Eventing?  Or should we not be doing anything with horses anymore?  My mares (and pretty much every other broodmare I know of) live great lives, are able to enjoy a small herd life, interact with their foals, interact with other foals, get fed correctly, have attentive healthcare, footcare, vaccinations and worming, enjoy chilling out in big fields, and so on.  

As for everyone being skint... horses have never been cheap to do anything with as far as I am aware?  A big problem is that people seem to think they can use the credit crunch as an excuse to rip other people off!

Lastly... Nokia, are you vegetarian?


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## TarrSteps (10 June 2011)

I'd rather see a top quality mare, well cared for by a responsible breeder, with a proven record of producing good, saleable horses (not just for the profit element, but because they're "wanted") have a foal every year than a sub standard mare bred "just because".

I used to work for a breeder who had a mare that had 22 foals!  She had sired at least one approved stallion, a number of mares that had themselves produced approved stallions/graded mares (one of her daughters, that I had the privilege of riding, produced two approved sons from her first two foals!), and a long list of good competition horses.  At that point the stud still did a lot of live cover and the mare caught easily, kept her condition, foaled out with minimum trouble and was a good mother to her foals.  I think any horse would be GLAD to have a mother like that.   She was, in effect, good at her job and started a whole host of similarly good horses out on the best foot possible.

There are mares that catch only every other year and if they are "professional" broodmares and producing good quality foals the breeder just factors that in.

In the wild (which is a LONG was from most of our horses now) receptivity and conception are at least partially based on circumstance - condition of the mare being the most relevant - but if you're going to take the "it's natural" stance then you'd need to explain "foal heats".  Many mammals don't conceive easily when they are still nursing but horses seem positively designed to do so!  If the mare is particularly poor she might not conceive but she'd more than likely still come into season.  

Some mares do reach a point when they don't conceive easily any more - that's nature saying they're done - but if the mare is still getting in foal and can carry it easily, why is that "unnatural"?

Most of the good breeders I know don't churn horses out, willy nilly, and in fact the best regularly "cull" their broodmare bands and send mares that aren't producing well back into the riding horse world.  (One breeder I knew ran a riding school/sale yard, using only his own "products" and mares taking a year out for whatever reason often worked in the school, which also meant they were ready for another job, should that be necessary.)

As far as people breeding indiscriminately . . . that's hardly just about people breeding a mare too many times.  That's just people being, well, stupid.  And so long as people keep buying the products then they'll keep supplying the market.  Look at the discussions on here about people not wanting to pay "market value" - as in the cost of production - for a young horse, or preferring to "rescue" a horse, even if it clearly will struggle with their demands, rather than support a responsible breeder, breeding horses for jobs.  

Can you imagine the screaming from owners if we introduced a "minimum price" for horses??


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## skyboy (10 June 2011)

People who breed horses for a purpose will continue to breed horses for that purpose regardless of the economic climate, because it's what they love to do, it's what they were born to do and they do it to improve their horses.
People who breed horses without a purpose will continue to breed horses regardless of the economic climate, because they know no better.
I think people are a little too quick to blame the former and a litle too slow to educate the latter.


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## LMsporthorses (10 June 2011)

skyboy said:



			People who breed horses for a purpose will continue to breed horses for that purpose regardless of the economic climate, because it's what they love to do, it's what they were born to do and they do it to improve their horses.
People who breed horses without a purpose will continue to breed horses regardless of the economic climate, because they know no better.
I think people are a little too quick to blame the former and a litle too slow to educate the latter.
		
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Well said.

The problem here is not the people breeding quality,well bred foals but the people who have poor quality mares, have no knowledge and produce less than adequate foals. 

Tarrsteps:

I have heard of the 'culling' of the mares and foals that have bad conformational problems or are producing not so good foals. This sound harsh but I do think it is the breeders being responsible and not flooding the market with not so good produce and letting the quality sell on because it will always sell on.

I think that some of the problem lies partly in the racing industry as there are alot bred that aren't up to scratch for the track and then end up being sold cheap to private homes. For those of you that have an ex racer and it is a nice one that is going well.... I do not mean you but there are alot that people can't 'retrain' and some who end up with a mare that they cannot manage to ride etc think oh Ill put it in foal' which then often produces another handful and so on.

All I'm saying is I don't think the professional breeders are to blame here and neither the responsible ..... ' have a really nice mare(Quality/talented/rideable) and want to breed' breeders.

 Breeders who are just breeding because they dont know what else to do with the mare or because they just want a foal, and the mare is less than adequate and are using poor quality stallions are the ones that are to blame IMO.

I think awareness is the key here which could help steer theses types of breeders in the right direction possible talks/seminars to either change their mind about breeding or encouraging them to be a little more picky on mares/stallions to use if they still really want to breed.

So I think if there was a little bit more understanding across the board the problem of over breeding could be reduced. And pinpointing professional breeders is not the answer.  (god help us if we didn't have professional breeders!)


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## TarrSteps (10 June 2011)

Like everything else, it's about making good choices for our horses.

It is tricky, though, because, as discussed, people who want "just a horse" expect to get one cheaply even though it takes as much effort and planning to produce sound, sane all around "family" horses with any consistency as top competition horses.  So the industry ends up with a numbers game, where people breed "average" horses and don't necessarily invest in their development as they know they won't recoup it, just to get the relatively small number that will, more by luck than judgement, have the attributes people want.

It's also about good judgement . . . in an example of the above post, I knew a woman who bred the ex-racehorse she bought who ended up too big and too sharp for her to Flynge Amiral!!!  Because she "liked his trot" and wanted a dressage horse.  So she ended up with something even bigger and sharper she couldn't ride one side of but which didn't appeal to the professional market because there are so many horses by similarly successful sires out of really top mares, too, so they have the whole package.  So what did she do?  Bred that one, too, in an effort to get something "quieter".  That is not organised breeding!  

The people just breeding large numbers of horses randomly will always do that, just like people will breed for puppy mills.  If fact, that's easier to legislate against as it often ends up with someone having to intervene due to over crowding, care issues etc.  It would be interesting to know though, how many of the horses that end up "in trouble" come from that sort of situation vs other, less obviously uncaring, situations.


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## Megibo (10 June 2011)

Mugsgame said:



			As for broodmares having foals every year - why not?  If they are fit and well, looked after properly - what makes them any different to other horses used for jobs?  Hunting?  Eventing?  Or should we not be doing anything with horses anymore?  My mares (and pretty much every other broodmare I know of) live great lives, are able to enjoy a small herd life, interact with their foals, interact with other foals, get fed correctly, have attentive healthcare, footcare, vaccinations and worming, enjoy chilling out in big fields, and so on.
		
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well i'm ignoring the first part of what ginnie said as that was childish... 
though mugsgame, thats exactly what i'm saying. in those situtuons as you've described there's nothing wrong with it. the people who breed on here are getting antsy about it but what i've said isnt aimed at them as they breed sensibly and the mares are looked after. and i think most of them will have buyers for the many horses they're producing year after year. 
but the issue is people producing from poor quality horses. a bit like gypsy breeders with the coloured horses who will produce and produce as soon as the mare is able to carry a foal and in the hopes people will want a pretty coloured baby and pay the earth to 'rescue' it from them etc etc


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## TarrSteps (10 June 2011)

But do you think those people are reading the thread?  Or that they care what you - or anyone else - has to say on the matter?  I'm pretty sure they know where the cast offs end up.

You're not going to find anyone on here in favour of random breeding because by definition, everyone on here is interested in horses as individuals and have horses to do jobs, even if that job is "pet".

What is your solution?

Btw, I think GR has a VERY valid point!  The vast majority of horses I see that end up in trouble have soundness and/or training issues.  Perhaps owners should be "taxed" to get the help their horses need or, if the aren't saleable at market prices, to either keep them or make the ultimate decisions themselves.


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## Megibo (10 June 2011)

i merely asked for peoples opinions on the matter, i wasnt saying that those breeders would be bothering to read posts like mine.



TarrSteps said:



			But do you think those people are reading the thread?  Or that they care what you - or anyone else - has to say on the matter?  I'm pretty sure they know where the cast offs end up.

You're not going to find anyone on here in favour of random breeding because by definition, everyone on here is interested in horses as individuals and have horses to do jobs, even if that job is "pet".
		
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## GinnieRedwings (10 June 2011)

Tazhazzamoose said:



			well i'm ignoring the first part of what ginnie said as that was childish...
		
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First time I've heard Darwin's theory of evolution called "childish" - I might have to return the compliment by saying that you very much sound like you still believe in Black Beauty 



TarrSteps said:



			But do you think those people are reading the thread?  Or that they care what you - or anyone else - has to say on the matter?  I'm pretty sure they know where the cast offs end up...
		
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... and pretty sure they don't care either...

Horse overpopulation is a huge problem created (in the humble opinion of someone who spent most of the last 20 years trying to rehabilitate other people's stupid mistakes, unsympathetic & cruel training methods, and generally trying to give horses that COULD have a useful future a chance), not by overbreeding per se, but by the WASTAGE produced by some in the horse industry. By that I mean horses so physically and mentally damaged that euthanasia is ever going to be the only kind thing to do.

Interestingly, the gypsy breeding isn't as bad as all that because Bob the Cob, sound, sane, never ill, cheap to run, will never cause the people who chose to buy him to take them around the country lanes on a Sunday afternoon any hassle... and there will always be a demand for him.

The racing industry and some of the German Sports Horse enormous breeding machines are more to blame in the sense that when ROR (Retraining of Racehorses, the Racing charity) was created, the enormous amounts of wastage they produce each year (failed or never raced animals), instead of being culled as they used to, found themselves in the riding horse market, with various degree of "retraining", mostly too hot or too psychologically damaged for most leisure riders to handle... and there finding their way to my yard... if they're lucky. Mostly finding their way to unscrupulous dealers' yard selling them as birthday presents to 13 year olds for £1,500 or under, looking so "pretty", non-horsey mothers delighted of the bargain... And yes, I have seen this first hand, not pretty! 

THAT is flooding the market with unrideable (for the average rider) horses and if you look at various for sale ad in the under £1,000 section, you'll find that most of the horses over 15.2hh are TBs... has potential... "project"... 

Rant over


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## LMsporthorses (10 June 2011)

GinnieRedwings said:



			found themselves in the riding horse market, with various degree of "retraining", mostly too hot or too psychologically damaged for most leisure riders to handle... and there finding their way to my yard... if they're lucky. Mostly finding their way to unscrupulous dealers' yard selling them as birthday presents to 13 year olds for £1,500 or under, looking so "pretty", non-horsey mothers delighted of the bargain... And yes, I have seen this first hand, not pretty! 

THAT is flooding the market with unrideable (for the average rider) horses and if you look at various for sale ad in the under £1,000 section, you'll find that most of the horses over 15.2hh are TBs... has potential... "project"... 

Rant over 

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Yes ...... this has happened at the yard I'm at ''all the gear no idea'' people who think ''retraining'' racehorses is easy.... usually end up paying me to ride them.

I have lost count of the times people have asked me to look at a horse for them that they are interesting in buying to find it is a TB ..... when they blatantly can not handle them.... I say  ''you know what you want..... a 'Bob the Cob' no matter if its not the best looker, something you can actually ride and enjoy.''

Many still do not listen and just go ahead and end up practicall begging someone to have it a year down the line when they have finally come to terms with the fact that after 'parelli' , 'monty roberts' techniques endless back people, calming supplements etc they still cant ride them. And remember if all else fails ..... if its a mare we could breed a foal...... argh vicious circle

At the end of it all they have propably spent about £4000 on the horse..... which if they had put in to buying a nice well produce cob type/ half bred in the first place would have had alot less heartache and a better outcome.


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## Megibo (10 June 2011)

GinnieRedwings said:



			First time I've heard Darwin's theory of evolution called "childish" - I might have to return the compliment by saying that you very much sound like you still believe in Black Beauty 

Click to expand...

believe what you will...



GinnieRedwings said:



			... and pretty sure they don't care either...

Horse overpopulation is a huge problem created (in the humble opinion of someone who spent most of the last 20 years trying to rehabilitate other people's stupid mistakes, unsympathetic & cruel training methods, and generally trying to give horses that COULD have a useful future a chance), not by overbreeding per se, but by the WASTAGE produced by some in the horse industry. By that I mean horses so physically and mentally damaged that euthanasia is ever going to be the only kind thing to do.

Interestingly, the gypsy breeding isn't as bad as all that because Bob the Cob, sound, sane, never ill, cheap to run, will never cause the people who chose to buy him to take them around the country lanes on a Sunday afternoon any hassle... and there will always be a demand for him.

The racing industry and some of the German Sports Horse enormous breeding machines are more to blame in the sense that when ROR (Retraining of Racehorses, the Racing charity) was created, the enormous amounts of wastage they produce each year (failed or never raced animals), instead of being culled as they used to, found themselves in the riding horse market, with various degree of "retraining", mostly too hot or too psychologically damaged for most leisure riders to handle... and there finding their way to my yard... if they're lucky. Mostly finding their way to unscrupulous dealers' yard selling them as birthday presents to 13 year olds for £1,500 or under, looking so "pretty", non-horsey mothers delighted of the bargain... And yes, I have seen this first hand, not pretty! 

THAT is flooding the market with unrideable (for the average rider) horses and if you look at various for sale ad in the under £1,000 section, you'll find that most of the horses over 15.2hh are TBs... has potential... "project"... 

Rant over 

Click to expand...

see, now that i agree with


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## Holly831 (10 June 2011)

GinnieRedwings said:



			Sorry, but that had me rolling on the floor laughing.... 

Not wanting to be patronising but I really can't put this in a way that won't be, so I apologise in advance - everyone is entitled to their opinion of course. 

Why is it people always want to attribute human feelings to animals??? 

Mares WANT to have babies every year for 2 reasons:
1- their hormones are telling them to - I would argue it is a lot more cruel to let mares suffer mood swings and sometimes pain, expecting them to carry on working/performing through cycle after cycle, than have them what they are designed to do... make babies! 
2- all animals have the 2 genetically engrained NEEDS to survive themselves as an individual and reproduce to ensure the survival of their species. If it wasn't the case in horses, then there would now be no horses...

It must be tiring???? Well going round Badminton is tiring, and a damn sight less natural!!!

And back to the REAL world. Eothain is absolutely right, business is business. Provided there are no welfare issues, a broodmare's job is to have babies. Like a riding horse's job is to work under saddle. Once a horse can no longer perform the job it is meant to do, for whatever reason, then yes, it ought to be put down.

I am not being unkind or cruel. I am being realistic. How many ads are there out there for ex-riding horses as light hacks or companions? Honestly, who can afford to have an ex-racing TB as a companion??? Because people cannot afford to keep them as field ornaments and they haven't got the guts to make the decision to have them put down, those horses get passed from pillar to post, buted up to the eyeballs & sold on and on by unscrupulous dealers. Now, THAT's cruel.

Before I get slaughtered, I myself own 2 mares and a gelding pony who, if it wasn't for my intervention, would have been glue a long time ago. But I only took them on because I could see a purpose for them. One was a very talented SJ with excellent bloodlines and she had 2 beautiful babies for me. She is now back in ridden work and doing well. The other is an ex-racing TB, who after a lot of dedicated work, has turned out to be a very good little riding horse. The pony I bought as a completely wild unhandled 3 year old at the Watton horse sales, 11 years ago. He is a great riding pony and a steadfast companion for the youngsters.

But, had any of them turned out to prove me wrong about their potential usefulness - and I do give them a lot of chances - then they would have been put down. Why pass on your problems to someone else? That's not fair to the horse.

I have said this before and will repeat it til I'm blue in the face. With the exception of the indiscriminate gypsy breeders, breeding less is not an answer to the equine overpopulation. Well-trained, sane, talented horses are as rare as hen's teeth and fly off the shelf with enormous price tags. The vast majority of horses that cannot find a home have been damaged one way or another and may or may not ever have a useful job to perform. 

I think people need to have the guts to recognise the fact that their horse no longer has a use, and do what's needed, that would be part of the answer to horse overpopulation...
		
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As always a really good. common sense answer!

Mine get a year off if they fall late the previous year but only because I don't want late foals. 
My horses are my passion and my sanity from my real job and I would rather have mine PTS than be passed around where anything can (and does) happen to them. 
One of my mares has no breeding recorded but has given me 3 good quality, sane & trainable youngsters (last one I took to the BEF Futurity and he graded 1st premium . 
I have managed to sell all that I wanted to for good prices (wouldn't say I ever make a profit but I certainly cover all my costs and the mares keep etc to date!) and now have people asking what I have due so they can have first refusal.
Not a pink fluffy horses owner/breeder but my horses are very well cared for and I spend a good deal of time etc on their care/comfort - OH will vouch for that!!!  I don't ride and have no intention of ever riding, my mares are broodmares and that is their job.


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## billyhall (10 June 2011)

Mugsgame said:



			Brilliant stuff!!  Yes, of course all the responsible breeders should be slapped with a tax because of the 'recession' and because people are skint!!  This will sove ALL the problems!  Bound to  .  

Speaking about the market and the general horse population - I agree with a lot of what Ginnie R says, its not just about the breeding, it is also about the rest of life and use of these animals.

As for broodmares having foals every year - why not?  If they are fit and well, looked after properly - what makes them any different to other horses used for jobs?  Hunting?  Eventing?  Or should we not be doing anything with horses anymore?  My mares (and pretty much every other broodmare I know of) live great lives, are able to enjoy a small herd life, interact with their foals, interact with other foals, get fed correctly, have attentive healthcare, footcare, vaccinations and worming, enjoy chilling out in big fields, and so on.  

As for everyone being skint... horses have never been cheap to do anything with as far as I am aware?  A big problem is that people seem to think they can use the credit crunch as an excuse to rip other people off!

Lastly... Nokia, are you vegetarian?
		
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What difference does being a vegetarian make - I eat meat but that did not stop me getting a rescue horse - yes one of those passed from pillar to post by ponyclubbers/eventers/hunters -yes one of those that did a job !horses give a lot to people - have a long hard think - what have you ever done for a horse- price is determined by supply and demand - if there was a shortage there would be money to be made - people like me would be happy to pay - but i would rather follow my conscience. Without the horse we would be nothing- its a shame they are considered machines. If you are lucky to be in a position to breed - it is an honour please respect this.


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## GinnieRedwings (10 June 2011)

I only have one thing to add...

I LOVE horses, they have been my visceral passion since I was 7 years old (that's 33 years ago, by the way...). I have lost very strong relationships because of them. I have NEVER treated a horse like a machine. 

But I KNOW you CANNOT help horses by being emotional, sentimental and above all anthropomorphic...

The only way is to be realistic.


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## Elsbells (10 June 2011)

My mare is stunning, smart, talented and bred from top jumping lines. 

The amount of people that have said to me, including complete strangers is unreal
 "Why don't you get a foal from her, you should breed from her",
It is unbelievable, even my vet suggested it too!!!

She's sound, never sick or sorry, I ride her almost every day and she's only 10 years old. I am 50 so I wouldn't want the foal for myself, so why the hell would I breed from her?


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## LMsporthorses (10 June 2011)

elsbells said:



			My mare is stunning, smart, talented and bred from top jumping lines. 

The amount of people that have said to me, including complete strangers is unreal
 "Why don't you get a foal from her, you should breed from her",
It is unbelievable, even my vet suggested it too!!!

She's sound, never sick or sorry, I ride her almost every day and she's only 10 years old. I am 50 so I wouldn't want the foal for myself, so why the hell would I breed from her?
		
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You don't have to breed from her just cos other people say you should , there are lots and lots of very nice mares out there that would be ideal to breed from but depending on a individual circumstances and their reasons for breeding they don't and there is nothing wrong with that either, that's you being responsible enough to come to that decision. 

I think its people that don't have stunning, smart, talented mares that are breeding and perhaps shouldn't be.

Enjoy your mare she sounds nice.


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## nokia (10 June 2011)

Mugsgame ..the title sums you up just great !!!

No im not a vegi...i own a large dairy /beef breeding unit so do you think in a vegeterian.

I like the way you took the Pis% out of my comments...your about as witty as piles.

But you breeders will keep breeding and breeding...you will get less and less for your stock good luck to you...

But you know best..most horses people do ...


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## Mugsgame (10 June 2011)

billyhall said:



			What difference does being a vegetarian make - I eat meat but that did not stop me getting a rescue horse - yes one of those passed from pillar to post by ponyclubbers/eventers/hunters -yes one of those that did a job !horses give a lot to people - have a long hard think - what have you ever done for a horse- price is determined by supply and demand - if there was a shortage there would be money to be made - people like me would be happy to pay - but i would rather follow my conscience. Without the horse we would be nothing- its a shame they are considered machines. If you are lucky to be in a position to breed - it is an honour please respect this.
		
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Welcome to the forum!  Eating meat may not make a difference to you - I was simply referring to Nokia's quote about 'business being business'.  You see, Nokia thinks we should all be taxed for allowing our (well looked after, good, graded and proven) mares to be bred year after year.  I thought the notion was a little comical in its simplicity and jumped to my own conclusion that the poster must frown upon the meat trade too.  I am not comparing the reasons for breeding (or attempting to breed) good quality horses with the farming sector, merely making the point that yes, business IS business, why should any broodmare owners be ashamed of that?  So, the market is down, the breeders are feeling the pinch.  No need to tax!  Its just childish!  We have the odd ewe or so kicking around here, THEY breed every year, year in, year out, until they meet their maker.  Why?  Because they are not pets and their lambs are sold to the meat trade.  They are looked after exceptionally well, but they are here for a reason.  Same as many people's broodmares.  Thats the task in hand and they get on with it.

Tackle the ignorant, tackle the negligent, tackle the ****s who ruin the horses that are bred and so on and so forth.  But please leave the good hearted, dedicated and passionate people alone to follow their heads and their hearts supplying well mannered and talented young horses to the market - they don't need the earache any more than some silly tax.

I breed horses, I keep horses (very occassionally I might ride one!!) and I have also rehomed more than my fair share of 'scrapheap' horses - to fantastic homes and receive updates on each and every one.  The one thing all the forementioned 'scrapheap' horses had in common was ignorant past owners who thought it might be nice to keep a horse.  People who think sheep look after themselves annoy me in much the same way.

Ginnie - once again I totally agree with you (but my 7 years old wasnt quite 33 years ago yet LOL  )

And Ellsbells, I totally agree with LMSportshorses, she is your beautiful mare - you know you are lucky to have her and why should anyone else decide whats best for the pair of you?  You are totally right - just because she has a uterus doesnt mean you HAVE to make her use it, but if that were your choice - why not?  Watch out for the baby tax though if you ever do change your mind!!!


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## Revena (10 June 2011)

Wow, this has turned into an interesting post! OP you don't have to worry people are NOT attacking you viewpoint but simply taking part in a good debate!
I agree thoroughly with GR's point about attatching human emotions to horses- I LOVE my horses, do they love me, well no, they respect me and we have a good human equine relationship but their love is reserved for their food.  The only time I see genuine love from my horses is when the mares look at their foals (this is gone by day two when the foals attempt to stick their head in the food bowls  )
I do think their are people who 'overbreed' and yes prices are down in the Market at the moment, but this is for everything! Does the word recession ring any bells?
The fact of the matter is there will always be a place for the nicely bred, well mannered, well produced equine. If you don't like the prices that are offered for your stock you have to be prepared to keep them for a while but that has always been the case.  If you can't hang on to them you have to accept what is offered or don't breed...


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## Revena (10 June 2011)

*there


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## Eothain (11 June 2011)

Before any more people try to be sychophantic, rose tinted, do-gooders and tell me that trying to have a business and indeed a business plan in equestrianism is wrong, let me just say that this is a horse I took a gamble on as he made his way as an untouched, unhandled, unbroken, untried, skinny, malnourished, 6 year old with no known breeding to the factory.
I swapped him for a horse who had suffered an injury and gone chronically lame and next thing you know, despite beginning his competitive career at 7, here is competing at 1.30m.
This horse has since been sold to England and is now competing with Sue Walker from Duckhurst Farm.
Basically what I'm saying is, there's not a professional breeder on the planet that doesn't love their horses. I'm 24, this is my life. Despite what the fluffy rabbit brigade want to happen, horses still have to pay for themselves and put bread on the table, children through school, trips on holiday etc.
So how dare anyone even attempt to criticise me or any other professional breeder for accepting that business is infact, business. We still have income and expenditure columns to fill. Still have profit and loss accounts. Still have depreciation of assets.
If anything, the equstrian sector is more like The Apprentice than anyone would like to admit.
Showjumpers must showjump. Eventers must event. That's what they do. Breeders must be there to ensure that when horses are sold or die or whatever, that there is another one there to take it's place. That's the nature of the business.

Me? I can't afford to breed and showjump but I can't afford not to either!


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## Bertthefrog (11 June 2011)

nokia said:



			Mugsgame ..the title sums you up just great !!!

No im not a vegi...i own a large dairy /beef breeding unit so do you think in a vegeterian.

I like the way you took the Pis% out of my comments...your about as witty as piles.

But you breeders will keep breeding and breeding...you will get less and less for your stock good luck to you...

But you know best..most horses people do ...
		
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I'm aware of several breeders that have significantly cut down on coverings last year, and this year too. 

That said - the market is as strong as it has ever been for top end horses so why shouldn't those breeding for this end of the market continue to do so.


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## tristar (11 June 2011)

tazhazzamoose, hope i"ve spelt it correctly!, thanks for posing the questions, i have thought along those lines for a long time, you are not alone!

when i groom my stallion quite often he will wrap his neck around me and hold me to him, so i hold his head in my arms, we stand like this for about five minutes, i would dispute anyone who would suggest that he is not displaying love for me, i think the degree to which one attributes emotions in animals is due to one's personal experience or natural awareness and empathy, no one can have my exact experience or has the right to invalidate it, it is mine alone.

yes i do think that animals experience the same emotions as people, and are capable of making certain moral decisions.

the horses i breed, i break and train, why else would i breed them, i want to experience the whole process, only  by doing this can i truly know if i have succeeded.


some mainland european studs are producing 1000 foals per year, i call it breeding by numbers, a lottery of if you breed x amount you might get a few champions.

you can see on various forums that the same training problems arise again and again and that there is lack of understanding of how to train horses, i might suggest that anyone embarking upon training to incorporate compassion along with all the other qualities needed and realise that horses do have emotions one of the reasons they are reactive, and try to culti
vate empathy as a way of tuning in to the horses experience.


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## the watcher (11 June 2011)

This has turned into quite an interesting debate.

I breed in a very small way compared to many on this forum. I give my mare a break of one year between foals, not because I thinks she needs it, but because up until recently I have combined breeding and horses with full time work. I know it isn't ideal and that her fertility would be more guaranteed if we bred every year. She would like it too, she is never happier than when she is in foal or has a foal at foot.

My breeding choices are carefully considered (agonised over, even) as I always have one eye on where I could go with the next one or two generations.

Yes, like many of you I am quietly infuriated with those who appear to breed indiscriminately - there is a small stud just down the road from me where they run out a real mix of mares with whichever stallion they can get hold of, even gypsy cast-offs, with no real thought for the quality of the outcomes. Horses come and go, nothing is swabbed or health checked or scanned, ever.  As long as people continue to buy their horses they will continue to breed them.

If anybody has a realistic idea of how to limit this, without penalising the entire industry, I would love to hear it.


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## Alec Swan (11 June 2011)

I haven't read through all the posts,  so I'll apologise,  in advance,  if I'm repeating the thoughts of others,  and these are just my thoughts.

We breed today for four years time,  or there abouts.  If we accept that short of it all going into melt down,  there will always be a market,  for the very best,  regardless of the field of interest,  it's those horses,  now being covered,  which are,  perhaps a little less than ideal,  where we find a problem.  

The market place will dictate the value of a horse,  regardless of what the doting breeder may think!  There are many TB fillies,  who were destined for stud duties,  and 10 year old brood mares,  who've failed to produce winners,  who are now being set on one side,  and quite rightly so.  The TB industry has always been based on a profit making plane.  The more astute Sport Horse breeders,  are now getting in step with this thinking,  and again rightly so.

Recessions,  tend to be cyclical,  in as much that we have periods of boom and bust.  We recover from bust,  we have a 10 year,  or so,  period of plenty,  and then we're in the doldrums,  again.  I suspect that the current difficulties which we're currently _enjoying_,  may be a little longer lasting than previous market down turns.

It's always been the same.  During the successful years,  many will jump on the bandwagon,  along come the down times,  and it becomes a buyer's market.  Apart from a horse or two,  I also keep a few sheep,  and the current value of breeding ewes is not sustainable,  and when the next ovine crash arrives,  and it will,  then those £150 breeding ewes,  will be for sale for £5.  It's lunacy,  but it's the way that it is!!

Whilst the Continental approach to breeding,  seems to me to make far more sense,  the time will come,  when the lesser mares will be discarded,  and then the battle field,  for the stallion owners,  will become fierce!!  For every first class mare,  from the breeding view point,  we are still spoilt for choice with stallions,  for now anyway!

However the smaller breeders,  and I'm amongst them,  are hurt,  I suspect that in 10 years time,  we'll begin to reap the rewards of the current difficulties.

Alec.


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## Megibo (12 June 2011)

sorry for being away from the thread i've been in hosp a few days.

as others have said there are some interesting views on here, and i agree with attaching human emotions to horses-i realise i've partially done that and some people have made sense with saying mares would naturally want to have babies other than do nothing (they would be mums every year in the wild) and if it's their job to be a mum they should have babies every year. 
someone said horses dont love you, or similar, i'm not sure its love exactly but i think a horse can feel strongly about you. i've had my mare 6 years and she always seems affectionate toward me and comes to me for comfort etc but that goes under a whole new topic about whether or not they have feelings. they do-just not quite as in depth as ours


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## pintoarabian (12 June 2011)

Just because a mare can have a foal every year, doesn't mean that she should. Why not in an ideal world where good homes are easily found and the world is bathed in a rosy glow? Many women too could have a baby every year and it is within living memory when large families were commonplace. Almost all women would throw a wobbly now if they were expected to fulfill that role. If it hadn't been for birth control the world would be vastly overpopulated, much more so than it is today. We are now in a position where the horse world is overpopulated with supply vastly exceeding demand. Without breeders exercising some sort of restraint, the future is even more bleak than the present. Just my opinion and I will either be proved right or wrong.


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