# The 2012 racing season has now killed 50 horses!!



## Over2You (4 May 2012)

*FIFTY* horses have now been killed on racetracks in the UK. 

Their names:

First Order
Prince Blue
Optimist 
Takhreej 
Advertise
The Prentender 
Welcome Approach
Nanna Maura 
Arrys Orse
According To Pete
Synchronised 
Just Jordan
Gottany OS
Milans Man 
Lets Go Girls
U B Carefull
Olivino 
Dont Tell The Wife 
Canni Thinkaar 
Connak 
Gross Prophet
Abergavenny
Featherbed Lane 
Palawi 
Scotsirish 
Garde Champetre 
Educated Evans 
Harry Handsome 
Mottley Crewe
Drybrook Bedouin
Will Scarlet 
Rougham
Deferto Delphi
Moving Wings 
Bygones In Brid 
Marigolds Way
Pendoun
King Of Keys 
Blue Ronnie 
Danehill Willy
Hopeful Start 
Simonsberg 
Tourist
Uncle Bryn
Haafhd Handsome
Mr Chow 
Montegonian 
Salberto 
Hidden Keel
This Masquerade

Rest peacefully poor horses. You were the victims of unjustifiable greed and arrogance.


Don't even try to tell me that any other equestrian sport kills anywhere near as many horses as that!!


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## Shazbat (4 May 2012)

Get a life!
How many have been killed through neglect or on the roads!


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## Elf On A Shelf (4 May 2012)

May The 4th Be With You!


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## Elf On A Shelf (4 May 2012)

Oh! I would also like to point out that the 2012 Flat Season started at the beginning of April and the 2012 Jumps Season started on Monday. We don't do years so soz! Your stats are wrong!


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## TeamChaser (4 May 2012)

Shazbat said:



			Get a life!
How many have been killed through neglect or on the roads!
		
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Precisely!!!


Over2You - in the interests of fairness are you going to list all of the horses killed so far this year in other disciplines, whilst being used for leisure purposes, at leisure, through neglect, through stupidity, through accidents etc, etc 


If you have a horse, you have domesticated/trained it for your own purpose (I don't care how much you believe in your NH methods) - maybe we're all selfish then??

The important thing is how we care for them whilst they are with us 

Really getting boring now ......


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## kirstykate (4 May 2012)

Where there is livestock there is dead stock way of the world.  How many horses are there in the racing industry, think you will find that its a very small percentage are killed on the track, is it better to die doing something you enjoy or die from neglect??


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## alliersv1 (4 May 2012)

OTY
"Flogging a dead horse"....


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## lachlanandmarcus (4 May 2012)

I think O2Y would be better focusing their energies on the cruelty and barbarism meted out to horses by intensive farming, long distance transporting to slaughter and the thousands of horses struggling to starve dumped in Wales and Ireland by the real greedy breeders in this country. 

Personally, a life without an element of risk is no life at all, nor would the chasing stamp of horse exist without a purpose for him to be bred for. 

Id rather there were ScotsIrishs around, however sadly briefly, than not at all. And the tears that jump racing fans shed for them (and they do!) don't change that.


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## TeamChaser (4 May 2012)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			I think O2Y would be better focusing their energies on the cruelty and barbarism meted out to horses by intensive farming, long distance transporting to slaughter and the thousands of horses struggling to starve dumped in Wales and Ireland by the real greedy breeders in this country. 

Personally, a life without an element of risk is no life at all, nor would the chasing stamp of horse exist without a purpose for him to be bred for. 

Id rather there were ScotsIrishs around, however sadly briefly, than not at all. And the tears that jump racing fans shed for them (and they do!) don't change that.
		
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Very well put


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## Over2You (4 May 2012)

EKW said:



			Oh! I would also like to point out that the 2012 Flat Season started at the beginning of April and the 2012 Jumps Season started on Monday. We don't do years so soz! Your stats are wrong!
		
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If that is the case, then how come Haafhd Handsome died on the flat in February of this year? Looks like you are wrong!! Or did he perish during the 2011 season (which technically carried over to 2012)? Either way, you are still incorrect!!

PS: There is no such word as "soz".


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## rhino (4 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			PS: There is no such word as "soz".
		
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There is also no need to use multiple exclamation marks, or multiples of other forms of punctuation. It is incorrect usage, but as language changes and adapts it seems as acceptable as using easily identified neologisms.


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## Allover (4 May 2012)

OTY in the time that those 50 horses died how many horses raced, i would be interested to see the percentage if you can find it?


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## Elf On A Shelf (4 May 2012)

Althoughh racing happens all year round under both codes they are divided up into seasons. Traditionally the Jumps season ran from October to the end of April - winter jumping ground. The Flat season ran from the middle of April until the end of October - when the turf tracks raced fast and unsuitable for jumping. These days you have all weather tracks to flat race on all winter and jumps tracks water their ground to make is safe to jump on. No jumps meeting will ever be held where the ground is firm/fast all the way round. 

So the horse you are referring to that died on the flat will have been on the all weather synthetic surface and will technically have been last season.


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## amage (4 May 2012)

Of course you will never tout the pro racing statistic that thanks to the unprecendented exemplary work of the ground crew at Punchestown at the end of five days racing no horses were injured or killed and not one jockey was injured! The rain came non stop yet day after day they produced a safe track and while some of the chases have been deferred to next week the track is once again superbly prepared. But hey thats probably way to accurate a stat for you to be interested in O2Y


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## Elf On A Shelf (4 May 2012)

Punchestown did a cracking job! I do believe that they worked through the night removing water from the track, properly working in the divets and the end result was a great weeks racing and a track that they should very, very much br proud of! 
There was only one minor tendon injury during 3 days of Perth racing too last week. 

But we'll not mention any of that as it won't help overthetops movement to ban racing!


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## ElphabaFae (4 May 2012)

And during this time how many horses have been sent to Europe to be slaughtered? Sent in unsuitable over-crowded lorries, with no food and water, suffering god knows what injuries, because they panic and lash out at each other. I presume you've heard the video of the kill-buyer in America who confessed he would shot any horse that wouldn't load into the trailer in the eye with a BB gun...

Yes racehorses get injured, so do event horses, showjumpers and I'm pretty sure that the use of rollkur within the dressage community is hardly a treat for the horses either. But if they get injured, they get the best vet treatment soon, I'm pretty sure something going to France won't get to see a vet straight away because its broken its leg after it got kicked by another terrified horse! 

Also since you have a list of all those who have sadly died, do you happened to have a list of all those who raced without incident?


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## amage (4 May 2012)

EKW said:



			Punchestown did a cracking job! I do believe that they worked through the night removing water from the track, properly working in the divets and the end result was a great weeks racing and a track that they should very, very much br proud of! 
There was only one minor tendon injury during 3 days of Perth racing too last week. 

But we'll not mention any of that as it won't help overthetops movement to ban racing!
		
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Yes they did....it takes some dedication to continuously pump water off the track through the night while the rain keeps falling and yet they left no tractor mark on the course it was just phenomenal effort


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## Leaf (4 May 2012)

I  think the images of the walking horses in the US was far more distressing the mental torture day in day out for years...

If you are set against racing then why don't you try helping the poor blighters (on another thread) in the US, running on unregulated meds on some casino owned tracks.

racing in the UK is heavily policed and welfare aware even if you chose not to believe it.

I suspect that you don't have any real interest in racehorse welfare that you just enjoy winding people up. If you were serious then you would know racing has seasons, and would not indulge in petty "soz" comments


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## Dab (4 May 2012)

jockmaster said:



			racing in the UK is heavily policed and welfare aware even if you chose not to believe it.

I suspect that you don't have any real interest in racehorse welfare that you just enjoy winding people up. If you were serious then you would know racing has seasons, and would not indulge in petty "soz" comments
		
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^^^^^point well made


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## Holly Hocks (4 May 2012)

O2Y - how many horses have you taken from racing to give them a life after racing?  Don't criticise racing when those of us who enjoy it are probably the ones who take them after their racing careers to give them another life. If you are so concerned about racehorses, then maybe you should put your time and energy into rehabilitating and rehoming them.


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## joelb (4 May 2012)

Over2You said:



*FIFTY* horses have now been killed on racetracks in the UK.
		
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Potters probably get through that many unwanted and unfortunate animals in an afternoon because of indiscriminate over breeding by every Tom, Dick or Harry.  I know which scenario bothers me more.

(Not knocking abattoirs, just trying to make a point..probably very badly.)


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## Alec Swan (4 May 2012)

I've asked this before,  and I'm working on the basis,  that rather like the irritating child who continues to ask the same question,  again and again,  in the hope of an answer;

Can someone please explain to me just why anyone takes Over2You,  and his or her inane statements seriously,  and credits them with reasoned replies?

Alec.


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## AdorableAlice (4 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			I've asked this before,  and I'm working on the basis,  that rather like the irritating child who continues to ask the same question,  again and again,  in the hope of an answer;

Can someone please explain to me just why anyone takes Over2You,  and his or her inane statements seriously,  and credits them with reasoned replies?

Alec.
		
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Well said.

I recently found a coloured young horse dumped in a layby.  He had been killed by starvation and neglect.

This is what needs addressing not racing.


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## glenruby (4 May 2012)

Personally I have put to sleep half of that number in less than threeonths - all of whom are happy hackers and all rounders and ponies. Half of those again were due to injury -most commonly broken legs. In fact this week i had 2 fractures and a horse break down on front tendons - all wuthanased after injury in the field. Their welfare was much worse than similar racehorses as 1 was left 48hrs before getting a vet, 1 left 24hrs and the ither likely to have been 2-3hrs. My stats are out of approx 700-800 horses! A much much higher percentage than from the thousands of horses currently racing/ in training.


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## silu (5 May 2012)

No expert on computer jargon and don't often post on this forum however OTY seems as tho they are what is nowadays called a Troll? I believe. Pity they don't spend their quite obvious copious amounts of spare time actually DOING something useful, instead of taking hours to produce what they consider information which will help the plight of horses.
I'm fund raising tomorrow for a great and MUCH needed horse charity in Egypt. Go to the likes of Egypt OTY and see REAL cruelty which makes deaths however regrettable on the race track pall into insignificance
How much time have you spent either looking after retired/unwanted equines or "rattled a tin" to get money to pay for the care of abused equines be they race horses or otherwise?
May I suggest to the others who have replied to this post that we are just "feeding the troll" and perhaps we'd be better not to respond so that the troll will go back into it's cave.


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## Paris1 (5 May 2012)

It's interesting how one person comments on something they find cruel and unacceptable, and others feel the need to say but there is worse cruelty out there. I am certain there is. But its beside O2Y's point really.


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## Dunlin (5 May 2012)

Horse and Hound has for many many years now been supported/read by people that are pro hunt, pro racing, pro eventing etc. Due to the amount of times this particular subject has been discussed and the fact that it always gets petty, I think the ideal solution would be for the original poster to take their views onto a forum that is in support of them. I personally have no issues with racing, I also have no issues for those that don't support it but I think this is the wrong place to start these types of thread, it's a bit like joining a Ferarri forum to discuss how terribly uneconomical their vehicles are and expecting everyone on there to change their opinion and buy electric cars instead.


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## cptrayes (5 May 2012)

Are you serious?

You only want people to discuss things on here if they are in complete agreement with everything that Horse and Hound magazine publishes?

You do realise millions of people have lost their lives to ensure that the British retained the right to freedom of speech, do you?

This is an open forum and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And  Horse and Hound will be cross if you shut discussion down, too it's making them a lot of money in advertising revenues.


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## Over2You (5 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Are you serious?

You only want people to discuss things on here if they are in complete agreement with everything that Horse and Hound magazine publishes?

You do realise millions of people have lost their lives to ensure that the British retained the right to freedom of speech, do you?

This is an open forum and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And  Horse and Hound will be cross if you shut discussion down, too it's making them a lot of money in advertising revenues.
		
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Thank you for saying that. This lot are doing everything they can to avoid admitting/coming to terms with that *FIFTY* horses dying in a little over four months of racing is completely unacceptable.


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## Over2You (5 May 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			O2Y - how many horses have you taken from racing to give them a life after racing?  Don't criticise racing when those of us who enjoy it are probably the ones who take them after their racing careers to give them another life. If you are so concerned about racehorses, then maybe you should put your time and energy into rehabilitating and rehoming them. 

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Oh, but I *HAVE*!! My boy was bought at a bin-end Thoroughbred auction almost eight years ago. Took me a while to rehabilitate him (he had been abused through being whipped and hit around the head at the racing yard he was on before I got him), but he is a very happy chap now. He's completely spoiled and has *NEVER* seen a whip since coming to me. The only racehorses that are treated like kings are the ones that are making/or have made lots of money.


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## elliebrewer98 (5 May 2012)

Dunlin said:



			Horse and Hound has for many many years now been supported/read by people that are pro hunt, pro racing, pro eventing etc. Due to the amount of times this particular subject has been discussed and the fact that it always gets petty, I think the ideal solution would be for the original poster to take their views onto a forum that is in support of them. I personally have no issues with racing, I also have no issues for those that don't support it but I think this is the wrong place to start these types of thread, it's a bit like joining a Ferarri forum to discuss how terribly uneconomical their vehicles are and expecting everyone on there to change their opinion and buy electric cars instead.
		
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Very well made point


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## Over2You (5 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			I've asked this before,  and I'm working on the basis,  that rather like the irritating child who continues to ask the same question,  again and again,  in the hope of an answer;

Can someone please explain to me just why anyone takes Over2You,  and his or her inane statements seriously,  and credits them with reasoned replies?

Alec.
		
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What  reasoned replies??  About the only responses I have received are ones deflecting attention away from the subject. I am *NOT* talking about live transport, the welfare of horses in Egypt, or any other situations in which horses suffer. I am talking about the very real *FACT* that more than the equivalent number of starters in the Grand National have perished since the beginning of this year!! How can you find that extremely high number of fatalities acceptable?? The *ONLY* reason those horses died was so that you could be entertained (yes, entertainment is one of the definitions of sport). I will admit that life is not without risk, but its a totally different thing to put creatures (that have no understanding of the dangers surrounding racing) into such hazardous situations!! It is inhumane and barbaric!!


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## Over2You (5 May 2012)

rhino said:



			There is also no need to use multiple exclamation marks, or multiples of other forms of punctuation. It is incorrect usage, but as language changes and adapts it seems as acceptable as using easily identified neologisms. 

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I think you will find that a lot of professional writers (even top authors) use multiple exclamation marks, and other forms of punctuation when putting emphasis on the points they are making.  

Language may be changing, but certainly not for the better. This modern way of "free spelling" only encourages laziness. I have also checked several online/printed dictionaries, and "soz" isn't in any of them!!

When trying to come over as being intelligent on a forum, it is always best to spell properly, and to use words that are actually in English dictionaries.


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## amandap (5 May 2012)

Dunlin said:



			Horse and Hound has for many many years now been supported/read by people that are pro hunt, pro racing, pro eventing etc. Due to the amount of times this particular subject has been discussed and the fact that it always gets petty, I think the ideal solution would be for the original poster to take their views onto a forum that is in support of them. I personally have no issues with racing, I also have no issues for those that don't support it but I think this is the wrong place to start these types of thread, it's a bit like joining a Ferarri forum to discuss how terribly uneconomical their vehicles are and expecting everyone on there to change their opinion and buy electric cars instead.
		
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Ah, now I know why I don't read it. I don't fit the profile of a true blue H&H-er.  

I don't think 50 horse deaths since January 1st 2012 is acceptable in a 'sport'. An abbatoir maybe.


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## Caledonia (5 May 2012)

glenruby said:



			Personally I have put to sleep half of that number in less than threeonths - all of whom are happy hackers and all rounders and ponies. Half of those again were due to injury -most commonly broken legs. In fact this week i had 2 fractures and a horse break down on front tendons - all wuthanased after injury in the field. Their welfare was much worse than similar racehorses as 1 was left 48hrs before getting a vet, 1 left 24hrs and the ither likely to have been 2-3hrs. My stats are out of approx 700-800 horses! A much much higher percentage than from the thousands of horses currently racing/ in training.
		
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Why has everyone bashing racing ignored this post? If these are the figures for ONE vet practice, then why is racing any worse than what everyone else does with their horses?


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## Over2You (5 May 2012)

EKW said:



			Althoughh racing happens all year round under both codes they are divided up into seasons. Traditionally the Jumps season ran from October to the end of April - winter jumping ground. The Flat season ran from the middle of April until the end of October - when the turf tracks raced fast and unsuitable for jumping. These days you have all weather tracks to flat race on all winter and jumps tracks water their ground to make is safe to jump on. No jumps meeting will ever be held where the ground is firm/fast all the way round. 

So the horse you are referring to that died on the flat will have been on the all weather synthetic surface and will technically have been last season.
		
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I am confused. You start off by saying that the flat season is traditionally run from April until October. Then, you say that flat racing occurs all year round. Does this mean that there is no such thing as a traditional season nowadays? You could now consider an actual year to be a season of racing? So, technically, Haafhd Handsome could have died during the 2012 season? 

I also don't get how a horse dying in February could be classified as dying during the previous year's season (that traditionally ended in October). It doesn't make much sense at all.


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## amandap (5 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Why has everyone bashing racing ignored this post? If these are the figures for ONE vet practice, then why is racing any worse than what everyone else does with their horses? 

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Because the thread is about racing. Pulling worse figures is imo no justification for deaths in a sport. Shall we vote who kills the most horses then the rest of us can feel better? 

I have tons of questions as to why horse break legs in bowling green fields etc. etc. Alarm bells should be going off to deafen us all with the amount of injuries horses sustain...

ps. why is saying that level of deaths in a sport is unacceptable "bashing"?


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## Caledonia (5 May 2012)

amandap said:



			Because the thread is about racing. Pulling worse figures is imo no justification for deaths in a sport. Shall we vote who kills the most horses then the rest of us can feel better? 

I have tons of questions as to why horse break legs in bowling green fields etc. etc. Alarm bells should be going off to deafen us all with the amount of injuries horses sustain...

ps. why is saying that level of deaths in a sport is unacceptable "bashing"?
		
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Because you only look at racing, and say it's unacceptable. If it was possible to show that the stats for horses dying across the equestrian world are comparable, then you would have no argument for saying racing is more cruel than hacking or turning horses out in a field and looking at them through the window.


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## amage (5 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			I am confused. You start off by saying that the flat season is traditionally run from April until October. Then, you say that flat racing occurs all year round. Does this mean that there is no such thing as a traditional season nowadays? You could now consider an actual year to be a season of racing? So, technically, Haafhd Handsome could have died during the 2012 season? 

I also don't get how a horse dying in February could be classified as dying during the previous year's season (that traditionally ended in October). It doesn't make much sense at all.
		
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Re-Read the post....you evidently missed the word "traditionally". Racing seasons traverse the New Year hence in NH this is the start of the 2012/2013 season. We are currently in the 2012 Flat season and the horse you referred to was racing in the 2011/2012 All Weather season


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## Over2You (5 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Why has everyone bashing racing ignored this post? If these are the figures for ONE vet practice, then why is racing any worse than what everyone else does with their horses? 

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You will find that a horse breaking its leg in a field is an unforeseen accident. A horse might lose its balance, or trip on a divot. Being hit by a vehicle driving around a blind corner is also something that you cannot see coming.

A horse at the age of two or three-years-old breaking a leg after galloping multiple times at full speed is entirely predictable. A horse suffering a fatal fall after jumping an obstacle at speed is something that is inevitable.

Horse deaths in racing aren't accidents. They come part and parcel with the "sport".

Racehorses might also receive quick veterinary treatment at the track, but that is something that is only afforded to them when they are racing. Do racehorses receive rapid vet care while in transit or at home? Are they attended to quickly if they break a leg in the lorry, or when turned out (if they are lucky enough to get field time that is). Or, are they just like every other horse in that regard? It should also be noted that vets are present at other equestrian events as well. Racing isn't the only horse sport that can boast about having a vet on hand at all times.


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## perfect11s (5 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			You will find that a horse breaking its leg in a field is an unforeseen accident. A horse might lose its balance, or trip on a divot. Being hit by a vehicle driving around a blind corner is also something that you cannot see coming.

A horse at the age of two or three-years-old breaking a leg after galloping multiple times at full speed is entirely predictable. A horse suffering a fatal fall after jumping an obstacle at speed is something that is inevitable.

Horse deaths in racing aren't accidents. They come part and parcel with the "sport".

Racehorses might also receive quick veterinary treatment at the track, but that is something that is only afforded to them when they are racing. Do racehorses receive rapid vet care while in transit or at home? Are they attended to quickly if they break a leg in the lorry, or when turned out (if they are lucky enough to get field time that is). Or, are they just like every other horse in that regard? It should also be noted that vets are present at other equestrian events as well. Racing isn't the only horse sport that can boast about having a vet on hand at all times.
		
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 On a scale of one to ten I would give it about 1 on the cruelty scale and live exports and the suffering of horses bound for slaughter in Europe and the US  about 9  how about the markets and the meat man  ffs put some of your enery in to this !!!when thats sorted then have a go at the racing industy  ... or maybe you're a bit of a delicate flower and   dont  want to see or think about what realy goes on !! just prance about at the races having  nice day out


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## Caledonia (5 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			You will find that a horse breaking its leg in a field is an unforeseen accident. A horse might lose its balance, or trip on a divot. Being hit by a vehicle driving around a blind corner is also something that you cannot see coming.

A horse at the age of two or three-years-old breaking a leg after galloping multiple times at full speed is entirely predictable. A horse suffering a fatal fall after jumping an obstacle at speed is something that is inevitable.

Horse deaths in racing aren't accidents. They come part and parcel with the "sport".
		
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A horse breaking it's leg in a race is as much of an accident as a horse breaking it's leg anywhere. Only if every horse that ever raced died that way could it be construed as NOT an accident, and inevitable. But it isn't inevitable, it a very small percentage, who die accidentally. 

Racehorses tend to be exercised in far safer environments that the average happy hacker. So you could argue racing protects then far better. Their turnout is beautifully fenced, and they are continually monitored. Racehorses are also checked far more regularly than a horse in a DIY yard, for example. So the likelihood of their suffering is less than the average happy hacker in a DIY yard with dodgy fencing and lack of control over turnout etc.


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## Elf On A Shelf (5 May 2012)

Poppycock and twoddle and that is the last I am saying on the subject! Enjoy folks!


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## Over2You (5 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Because you only look at racing, and say it's unacceptable. If it was possible to show that the stats for horses dying across the equestrian world are comparable, then you would have no argument for saying racing is more cruel than hacking or turning horses out in a field and looking at them through the window.
		
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You are deflecting attention again!! This is a *RACING* thread!! It is *NOT* about anything else that happens in other spheres of the equestrian world!!

Where is there justification in the deaths of *FIFTY* horse so far this year??


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## lachlanandmarcus (5 May 2012)

I say soz quite a bit and also said it quite a bit when doing my degree at Oxford University, which doesnt prove I'm intelligent  I agree, but may demonstrate that there is a tiny potential flaw in the 'soz = thickie' argument. 

About as convincing as O2Ys main argument, I reckon.


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## Caledonia (5 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			You are deflecting attention again!! This is a *RACING* thread!! It is *NOT* about anything else that happens in other spheres of the equestrian world!!

Where is there justification in the deaths of *FIFTY* horse so far this year??
		
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Don't shout. It suggests you are losing your argument. 

Why does there need to be justification of it when similar figures happen across the whole equestrian sphere, one way or another?


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## Over2You (5 May 2012)

EKW said:



			Poppycock and twoddle and that is the last I am saying on the subject! Enjoy folks!
		
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So, *FIFTY* horses dying while racing this year is a load of "poppycock" and "twoddle" - is it?? On which planet are you living??

PS: Who is spouting a load of twaddle now?? That (twaddle) is the correct spelling of the word - not "twoddle"!!


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## amandap (5 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Because you only look at racing, and say it's unacceptable. If it was possible to show that the stats for horses dying across the equestrian world are comparable, then you would have no argument for saying racing is more cruel than hacking or turning horses out in a field and looking at them through the window.
		
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Do I? No I don't. I think the amount of injuries horses sustain in general should be questioned not just accepted as 'one of those things'.

Again the thread is about racing in particular and just because I find the number of deaths unacceptable doesn't mean I find deaths in other sports/ways acceptable. Why are horses legs so weak they break so frequently? Is it the bones, is it the tendons and ligaments, is it the hooves, is it over straining the limb? Why would a free horse (in a field) over strain it's limb? Despite popular thinking among humans horses are not stupid! Are we doing something,or not doing something to promote breakages and strains, tears etc. etc? That is THE question imo.
Yes there are accidents, but it seems to me that horses in our care are overly prone to them. Surely I am not alone with these questions?


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## amandap (5 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Why does there need to be justification of it when similar figures happen across the whole equestrian sphere, one way or another?
		
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Oh, that's alright then... we will just carry on,no questions asked, We'll cry when our horse dies in a race or some other way but hey ho that's life! We'll get another one, and another. The supply is endless so long as we keep breeding enough and there might even be that winner! Hope he doesn't die though. 

I'm afraid that isn't the life I want.


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## Caledonia (5 May 2012)

amandap said:



			Do I? No I don't. I think the amount of injuries horses sustain in general should be questioned not just accepted as 'one of those things'.

Again the thread is about racing in particular and just because I find the number of deaths unacceptable doesn't mean I find deaths in other sports/ways acceptable. Why are horses legs so weak they break so frequently? Is it the bones, is it the tendons and ligaments, is it the hooves, is it over straining the limb? Why would a free horse (in a field) over strain it's limb? Despite popular thinking among humans horses are not stupid! Are we doing something,or not doing something to promote breakages and strains, tears etc. etc? That is THE question imo.
Yes there are accidents, but it seems to me that horses in our care are overly prone to them. Surely I am not alone with these questions?
		
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If you are genuine about your concerns being for horses across the board in all sports, and situations, why do you only concentrate on attacking racing? Where are your threads on the horses that die in fields, on the roads, of colic, through lack of attention, through poor care? Where is your outrage at those numbers?


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## Over2You (5 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Don't shout. It suggests you are losing your argument. 

Why does there need to be justification of it when similar figures happen across the whole equestrian sphere, one way or another?
		
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So, show jumping has killed a similar number of horses this year, has it?? Something like fifty horses have died during dressage tests so far this year?? I also bet that eventing can't even say that it has killed anywhere near as many horses!!

Racing is by far the most dangerous of all horse sports. Nothing can deny that fact!! No sport should get away with having such a high number of fatalities!!


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## amandap (5 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			If you are genuine about your concerns being for horses across the board in all sports, and situations, why do you only concentrate on attacking racing? Where are your threads on the horses that die in fields, on the roads, of colic, through lack of attention, through poor care? Where is your outrage at those numbers?
		
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You assume I am not genuine and you put words in my mouth. Enjoy your sport.


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## Caledonia (5 May 2012)

amandap said:



			Oh, that's alright then... we will just carry on,no questions asked, We'll cry when our horse dies in a race or some other way but hey ho that's life! We'll get another one, and another. The supply is endless so long as we keep breeding enough and there might even be that winner! Hope he doesn't die though. 

I'm afraid that isn't the life I want. 

Click to expand...

You see, racing does ask questions, continually. There are pms done on a lot of horses that suffer catastrophic injuries whilst racing. The results help with future research in ways to prevent or repair injuries. That doesn't happen in any other sphere. 

Why do you imagine you know how owners of racehorses feel? You are putting words into the mouths of people you don't even know. 

If you don't want to race horses, then that's fine, but it is not your place to decree what happens with horses other than yours.


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## Caledonia (5 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			So, show jumping has killed a similar number of horses this year, has it?? Something like fifty horses have died during dressage tests so far this year?? I also bet that eventing can't even say that it has killed anywhere near as many horses!!

Racing is by far the most dangerous of all horse sports. Nothing can deny that fact!! No sport should get away with having such a high number of fatalities!!
		
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You find me the statistics that state how many horses have died as a result of show jumping, or dressage. Then, and only then, do you have an argument. 

Do you even know how many horses compete every year in SJ and dressage? Do you know how many are born to do that job?


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## Over2You (5 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			If you are genuine about your concerns being for horses across the board in all sports, and situations, why do you only concentrate on attacking racing? Where are your threads on the horses that die in fields, on the roads, of colic, through lack of attention, through poor care? Where is your outrage at those numbers?
		
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For the umpteenth time - this thread has *NOTHING* to do with *OTHER* equestrian pursuits or equine illnesses!! *FIFTY* horses have died racing this year (it only turned May a few days ago), and not one of you pro-racers have said how terrible it is that such a high number of horses have died. You really couldn't care less, could you??


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## Over2You (5 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			You find me the statistics that state how many horses have died as a result of show jumping, or dressage. Then, and only then, do you have an argument. 

Do you even know how many horses compete every year in SJ and dressage? Do you know how many are born to do that job?
		
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Well, I can say that I have spent 20+ years watching show jumping. That probably equates to thousands of hours worth of sport. I can count on one hand the number of horses I have seen suffer fatal injuries (Sir Arkay, GG Barock, Pikap, and Hickstead). More horses than that died during the last Cheltenham Festival. Go figure!!


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## Caledonia (5 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			For the umpteenth time - this thread has *NOTHING* to do with *OTHER* equestrian pursuits or equine illnesses!! *FIFTY* horses have died racing this year (it only turned May a few days ago), and not one of you pro-racers have said how terrible it is that such a high number of horses have died. You really couldn't care less, could you??
		
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I'm not sure if you are being stupid or obtuse. 

You only want to concentrate on racing because you have a huge bias against it. 

Why is fifty horses dying through racing worse than fifty horses dying through injuries on the road or in fields?

I don't think it's an exceptional number across the spectrum of the horse world in general, so I don't see what your outrage is about. 

I think it's incredibly sad when horses die prematurely, whatever the scenario. However I do think that racehorses are lucky in that if they have an accident on a course, they have no prolonged suffering at all. Unlike horses found tangled in wire, broken legged in fields, hit by a car etc.


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## Over2You (5 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			I'm not sure if you are being stupid or obtuse. 

You only want to concentrate on racing because you have a huge bias against it. 

*Why is fifty horses dying through racing worse than fifty horses dying through injuries on the road or in fields?*

I don't think it's an exceptional number across the spectrum of the horse world in general, so I don't see what your outrage is about. 

I think it's incredibly sad when horses die prematurely, whatever the scenario. However I do think that racehorses are lucky in that if they have an accident on a course, they have no prolonged suffering at all. Unlike horses found tangled in wire, broken legged in fields, hit by a car etc.
		
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The former is in the name of "sport" and entirely preventable. The latter are accidents!! That is the difference!!


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## Alec Swan (5 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			.........

PS: Who is spouting a load of twaddle now?? That (twaddle) is the correct spelling of the word - not "twoddle"!!
		
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It's a generally accepted fact,  that those who are on the losing end of a debate,  debase their argument,   by concentrating on the spelling and grammatical mistakes of others.



Over2You said:



			...........

Where is there justification in the deaths of *FIFTY* horse so far this year??
		
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However unfortunate,  50 deaths,  so far this year,  and purely on the race course is an acceptable risk,  and one which those involved in racing accept.

That,  I would suggest,  is the answer to your question.

Alec.

Ets,  Doubtless you'll be impressed with the fact that I resisted the temptation to point out that your *"FIFTY horse"*,  might better have been presented with horses in the plural. Just thought that I'd mention it,  beams from one's own eye,  and all that!!


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## A1fie (5 May 2012)

The difference with other sports is that they breakdown behind the scenes. So yes you may not see showjumpers and dressage horses break down in the ring, but you can be sure that there are a huge amount of casulties that you don't see.  British racing is well regulated and utterly transparent.


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## Caledonia (5 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			Well, I can say that I have spent 20+ years watching show jumping. That probably equates to thousands of hours worth of sport. I can count on one hand the number of horses I have seen suffer fatal injuries (Sir Arkay, GG Barock, Pikap, and Hickstead). More horses than that died during the last Cheltenham Festival. Go figure!!
		
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Now here's the difference, EVERY race is filmed, and archived. 

However, you haven't watched these fifty racehorses die, have you? You've lifted that as a stat from a site. So by that token, your argument about watching show jumping is irrelevant, because you don't know what happened in the thousands of rounds that you have never seen, and will never see, because there is no record.


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## Caledonia (5 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			The former is in the name of "sport" and entirely preventable. The latter are accidents!! That is the difference!!
		
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Refer back to my previous post where I have already answered that fallacy.


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## Over2You (5 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			I'm not sure if you are being stupid or obtuse. 

You only want to concentrate on racing because you have a huge bias against it. 

Why is fifty horses dying through racing worse than fifty horses dying through injuries on the road or in fields?

I don't think it's an exceptional number across the spectrum of the horse world in general, so I don't see what your outrage is about. 

I think it's incredibly sad when horses die prematurely, whatever the scenario. However I do think that racehorses are lucky in that if they have an accident on a course, they have no prolonged suffering at all. *Unlike horses found tangled in wire, broken legged in fields, hit by a car etc.*

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So, those things _never_ happen to racehorses away from the track?? They always have a vet on hand 24/7??


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## Caledonia (5 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			So, those things _never_ happen to racehorses away from the track?? They always have a vet on hand 24/7??
		
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Yes, they are horses. However, the incidence is far less due to the care the racehorses receive. I don't know of any racing yard that has horses with access to wire paddocks, for ex. Not only do the majority have far safer exercise areas, there are always people about, unlike on DIY livery yards. Most yards have someone on them from 5.30 am, and finally checked at 10pm. All that time, there is someone about therefore access to a vet is quick between those hours.

ETA, please don't black bold sections of my posts to make it appear as if I am shouting. If you want to quote specific parts, do so.


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## Honeylight (5 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Yes, they are horses. However, the incidence is far less due to the care the racehorses receive. I don't know of any racing yard that has horses with access to wire paddocks, for ex. Not only do the majority have far safer exercise areas, there are always people about, unlike on DIY livery yards. Most yards have someone on them from 5.30 am, and finally checked at 10pm. All that time, there is someone about therefore access to a vet is quick between those hours.

ETA, please don't black bold sections of my posts to make it appear as if I am shouting. If you want to quote specific parts, do so.
		
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....& all racing yards will carry a humane killer as standard I would have thought.


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## Elf On A Shelf (5 May 2012)

I do believe that I can make up and use what ever words I see fit and can thus spell then however I like. 

Next you'll be telling me that I can't call my horse The Hocamaffe because that isn't a real word. 

And as for soz - it may well be a shortened down word to use in text messages but so is using numbers to replace words - over2you - for example


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## Elf On A Shelf (5 May 2012)

Nope we dont have humane killers on the yards but at the big training centres such as Newmarket, Middleham and the Curragh there are big vet practices on site. Our vets are based on our sattelite yard and we never have more than 20mins to wait for a vet on our main yard.


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## Elf On A Shelf (5 May 2012)

Overthetop you also go on about racing being a sport - what then is happy hacking if its not a sporting past time? What of the horses that hack to get fit.for sporting competitions? Your argument is flawed.


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## Leaf (5 May 2012)

OTY can i ask what would be you ideal solution? if you had the power what would you change?

I ask this as a genuine question and I am genuinely interested in your ideas.


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## Echo Bravo (5 May 2012)

o2y is an unhappy bunny,who sees the darkside in everything in life so they have to focus on one thing and this it seems is horseracing and nothing else or otherwise their life has little meaning and that is my personal feeling about this person.


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## cptrayes (5 May 2012)

A1fie said:



			The difference with other sports is that they breakdown behind the scenes. So yes you may not see showjumpers and dressage horses break down in the ring, but you can be sure that there are a huge amount of casulties that you don't see.  British racing is well regulated and utterly transparent.
		
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This is not true, sorry 

Where are the stats for horses put down in the days after a race due to injuries incurred during the race? My guess is that they at least double the published death rate, and I would like not to have to guess.

Racing deaths are in addition to those who break down behind the scenes, not a substitute for them.

And the statistics given for horses retired to stud make no sense to me. I have done the sums time and again and unless studs are killing large numbers of healthy mares every year, then they must be a skyscraper deep in mares if the number of horses who are recorded as going to breeding is correct.


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## cptrayes (5 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Why has everyone bashing racing ignored this post? If these are the figures for ONE vet practice, then why is racing any worse than what everyone else does with their horses? 

Click to expand...

By the published figures, one horse dies in every 250 national hunt races. If one horse died in every 250 hacks, people would stop hacking. If one horse died in every 250 cross country rounds, there would be a death every day at every one day event and cross country and they would stop running those events.

You can't just compare deaths during a race with deaths from all causes seen by one vet. For a start, s/he doesn't put down that number of horses every week, s/he picked a week that s/he remembers as being bad. For a second, causalties at the racecourse are nowhere near all the casualties from those races. More are put down due to catastrophic injury after they get home. For a third, the type of things that cause the deaths of ordinary horses will also affect racehorses. Racehorse deaths due to the race itself is not the full figure.

It's the scale of it. That's what's different.


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## vroutledge (5 May 2012)

http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/ this website upsets me so much i wish there was something other than the death penalty for these poor horses, all this modern technology and yet we still haven't figured out a good way to prevent horses having to be PTS from a broken leg etc..........


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## Elf On A Shelf (5 May 2012)

I HATE DEATH SODDING WATCH!!!!!!!!

That is all


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## TeamChaser (5 May 2012)

Cruelty and risk are 2 entirely different things

As a comparison - I have worked at a couple of NH racing yards (my sister at several) so I know how these horses are treated and I also know that at the end of the traditional autumn/winter NH season, all would go out in the field for a long summer holiday.  I think you'll find most yards are the same.  Welfare of the horse is paramount to ensure they perform to their potential

My sister worked for someone who fancied herself a dressage rider (I'm not talking Grand Prix here but BD at probably novice/medium level) - her horse was NEVER turned out. It went from stable to school and to the odd competition and that was it - not much of a life.  I know which I think is cruel

Risk is a different thing and I don't think anyone is saying that racing doesn't contain risk - of course it does.  It is extremely sad when a horse is fatally injured and it's something that no one wants to see. Injured horses are dealt with quickly and humanely however, which is the least any of us would want for our own horses. 

My friends horse unfortunately suffered a catastrophic leg break in the field (God knows how) but when found in the morning (no idea how long she'd been like it) she was remarkably calm.  Given the severity of the break and the physiology of a horses limb, she'd clearly suffered catastrophic nerve damage as well so didn't appear to be in pain (thank God) I would suggest this is often the case with racehorses and that, and the adrenalin, is why you often see them trying to continue to run - they're often not aware of the damage


Can I ask you Over2You what you do with your horse?  Do you hack on the road, do you jump, do you turn out in a field with others?  You're putting your horse at risk for your own pleasure - we all are

If you cannot accept risk, you shouldn't have a horse


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## Elf On A Shelf (5 May 2012)

vroutledge said:



			[all this modern technology and yet we still haven't figured out a good way to prevent horses having to be PTS from a broken leg etc..........
		
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/sep/23/claims-five-broken-leg-horse?CMP=twt_gu


Read! Please do go and read this article if you haven't already! It will give you a huge insight into what goes on in a horses leg and just why a broken bone can rarely be fixed. I'll bet you don't even think about half of the stuff in that article when you see a horse break a leg.

It really is an eye opener and may just help everyone understand a bit better.


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## Caledonia (5 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			By the published figures, one horse dies in every 250 national hunt races. If one horse died in every 250 hacks, people would stop hacking. If one horse died in every 250 cross country rounds, there would be a death every day at every one day event and cross country and they would stop running those events.

You can't just compare deaths during a race with deaths from all causes seen by one vet. For a start, s/he doesn't put down that number of horses every week, s/he picked a week that s/he remembers as being bad. For a second, causalties at the racecourse are nowhere near all the casualties from those races. More are put down due to catastrophic injury after they get home. For a third, the type of things that cause the deaths of ordinary horses will also affect racehorses. Racehorse deaths due to the race itself is not the full figure.

It's the scale of it. That's what's different.
		
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You are missing the point - you have no idea how many horses die out hacking, or in the field, or from sustained soft tissue damage due to intensive dressage training, or from eventing injuries, or from navicular type issues in SJ, or from flipping over in an arena, or from laminitis, or colic etc etc etc in livery yards because there are NO stats. 

I'm not sure how you get to 1 horse in every 250 races, but if that is the case, then given the median number of horses running per race is likely to be 10, by your stats it's one death every 2,500 runners. 

I am (unsurprisingly, given your tendency to quote opinion as fact) absolutely sure you are way out with that. If you are right, then eventing does not compare favourably. Other sports exact a high toll on the horse because he is being asked to do something unnatural. SJ, Dr, etc all call for intense pressures on the horse's system that it would not otherwise be subjected to, whereas galloping is as natural to a horse as breathing. But the sports horses are euthanased behind closed doors, not in the arena because the problems are ongoing and not instantly catastrophic. 

Racehorse deaths are recorded. No other sport is. 

Until there is a comparable record of the fate of ALL event horses, SJ, DR, Endurance etc, racing will always be open to biased criticism from the likes of yourself who abuse the fact that racing is the only responsible body recording every horse that competes, and make it to be a crime. 

Don't misunderstand me, I am not attacking any other sport, I think real  equestrianism needs to flourish in all disciplines. But the blinkered bashing is sheer laziness because racing is the only sport transparent enough to not hide the reality and the figures are out there for any bigot to manipulate.


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## TeamChaser (5 May 2012)

**Like**


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## Paris1 (6 May 2012)

If I wish to campaign for the stop of transport of horses for slaughter I hardly expect someone to tell me I can't as less horses die than in some other act. T


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## Dippy Zippy (6 May 2012)

Prince Blue was at the Racing Yard i work for, none of his owners, trainer and assistant trainer were greedy or arrogant, and we are all devastated by his death. So don't tarnish everyone in the racing industry with the same brush.


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## madmav (6 May 2012)

If horses could talk to us and we asked them: Which would you prefer: Never to have been born? Or to be born and take a risk in a race, with the potential for a leg-fracture/humane bolt etc? But if you get away with it, quite a nice lifestyle really? What do you think they would say?

The person who started this fascinating series of opinions, and who sounds as if they've been named after a racehorse (ironically) possibly needs to stop living in a cuddly version of life. 

Without racing, those horses wouldn't exist to be in danger of the prospect of injury. They would just not be here. End of. No horsey was born because there was no viable reason for someone to go to the expense of producing the blooming horse. Obvs, innit.


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## Little Squirrel (6 May 2012)

Yawns. Can you please find something else to post about because this topic is seriously boring now.

50 horses have died in 5 months, equating to 10 per month average. That is a low percentage compared to how many actually run.

Why can't people look at the overall statistics instead of getting thier knickers in a twist and complain about something much more worthy such as horses which are being neglected, starved and have a crap life in general. Open your eyes!!!


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

TeamChaser said:



			Can I ask you Over2You what you do with your horse?  Do you hack on the road, do you jump, do you turn out in a field with others?  You're putting your horse at risk for your own pleasure - we all are

If you cannot accept risk, you shouldn't have a horse
		
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If 1 in 250 times anyone anywhere in the country hacked a horse died, none of us would hack horses.

Your argument does not work for me. It is about level of risk, not complete avoidance or no horse would ever be born, it would be too much risk to the mare to breed from it.


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			I'm not sure how you get to 1 horse in every 250 races, but if that is the case, then given the median number of horses running per race is likely to be 10, by your stats it's one death every 2,500 runners. 

Racehorse deaths are recorded. No other sport is.
		
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From a previous thread, racing's published death rate is 1 in 250 runners.

No other equestrian sport would continue with those death rates.

You fool yourself if you think all deaths are recorded. I paid just over meat money at a low class auction for an ex racer. I few quid less and she'd have been in a tin. I daresay she was sold cheap to a dodgy dealer who realised that she was too sharp to sell on and promptly dumped her into a low class market and she'll be far from alone in that. It costs well into three figures to sell a horse through a bloodstock auction (without the auctioneers fees) and the bottom end risk being sold instead to dodgy dealers or livestock auctions.

Regarding racing recording all deaths, can someone please answer how the number of horses being recorded as retiring to stud stacks up. If it were true, given the number of geldings in NH racing, how come the studs aren't skyscraper deep in mares? I know the powers that be can't help it if the owner records the horse as retired to stud if it's actually been shoved through the auctions or shot, but something looks wrong with the figures somewhere.


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

madmav said:



			If horses could talk to us and we asked them: Which would you prefer: Never to have been born? Or to be born and take a risk in a race, with the potential for a leg-fracture/humane bolt etc? But if you get away with it, quite a nice lifestyle really? What do you think they would say?

Without racing, those horses wouldn't exist to be in danger of the prospect of injury. They would just not be here. End of. No horsey was born because there was no viable reason for someone to go to the expense of producing the blooming horse. Obvs, innit.
		
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This is a good argument. So is the one about how many people would be out of jobs and how much tax would be taken out of the system that will have to be made up in other ways.

The argument is not straightforward.


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Until there is a comparable record of the fate of ALL event horses, SJ, DR, Endurance etc, racing will always be open to biased criticism from the likes of yourself who abuse the fact that racing is the only responsible body recording every horse that competes, and make it to be a crime.
		
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You only have to go to a number of NH meets and a number of BE events to realise that the death rate in one during the event is far higher than the other. If one to two horses died on every day of a BE event, eventing would change or stop running. 

Do you not think that the very reason that racing needs to capture these figures is that the public can see how many more horses die during races than in other disciplines?

Regarding the deaths at home I do not believe that more event horses die at home of other causes than racehorses. I think you will also find that it is not routine to shoot an eventer because it buggered a tendon and cannot event again, where it would be routine to shoot a non-breedable or non breed-worthy racehorse. Nor is it normal to send it off to an auction and a completely unknown fate when it can't event any more, which is also prevalant amonst the less caring racehorse owners.


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## Caledonia (6 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			From a previous thread, racing's published death rate is 1 in 250 runners.

No other equestrian sport would continue with those death rates.

You fool yourself if you think all deaths are recorded. I paid just over meat money at a low class auction for an ex racer. I few quid less and she'd have been in a tin. I daresay she was sold cheap to a dodgy dealer who realised that she was too sharp to sell on and promptly dumped her into a low class market and she'll be far from alone in that. It costs well into three figures to sell a horse through a bloodstock auction (without the auctioneers fees) and the bottom end risk being sold instead to dodgy dealers or livestock auctions.

Regarding racing recording all deaths, can someone please answer how the number of horses being recorded as retiring to stud stacks up. If it were true, given the number of geldings in NH racing, how come the studs aren't skyscraper deep in mares? I know the powers that be can't help it if the owner records the horse as retired to stud if it's actually been shoved through the auctions or shot, but something looks wrong with the figures somewhere.
		
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Ah, so you were wrong? One in 250 runners, not one in 250 races?
Hardly worth believing you when you can't even parrot statistics correctly. 

I'd like to see the actual stats, if you are going to use them as an argument, 
not just you having 'seen them on another thread'. 

You baldly state *''No other equestrian sport would continue with those death rates.''.* However, you don't KNOW that. That's an opinion. Until there are figures available, every comment like that is simply conjecture. 

Deaths in training, which is what we are talking about here, ARE recorded. It's part of the trainers remit to tell Wetherbys. 

Once a horse is out of racing, that is a different scenario entirely. 

THe most recent BHA report has a percentage going to stud. That simply means used for breeding. The mares are usually kept with their owners at home, not heaped together in massive studs unless the operation is a hugely commercial effort, such as those in Newmarket or Ireland. 

Some big owners own studs, and the geldings that raced for them retired there, JP McManus for one, but I'm unsure where you've seen geldings listed as retired to stud?


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## Caledonia (6 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			You only have to go to a number of NH meets and a number of BE events to realise that the death rate in one during the event is far higher than the other. If one to two horses died on every day of a BE event, eventing would change or stop running. 

Do you not think that the very reason that racing needs to capture these figures is that the public can see how many more horses die during races than in other disciplines?

Regarding the deaths at home I do not believe that more event horses die at home of other causes than racehorses. I think you will also find that it is not routine to shoot an eventer because it buggered a tendon and cannot event again, where it would be routine to shoot a non-breedable or non breed-worthy racehorse. Nor is it normal to send it off to an auction and a completely unknown fate when it can't event any more, which is also prevalant amonst the less caring racehorse owners.
		
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Yet again, more nonsense presented as fact. 1 to 2 horses do NOT die every race meeting. Where do you find the stats for that?

Racing records everything when a horse is in training, full stop. Nothing to do with the 'public'. 

From personal knowledge, I completely disagree about the attrition rate for horses once out of eventing. In my experience I think it's far higher, at least at the top level. But that will simply have to be my opinion versus yours, as there are not stats kept.  
However I've also been at a Badminton where 3 horses didn't make it out of just over a hundred runners. I've ridden at events where horses have died. It's not that rare, it just goes unreported unless it's a high profile horse or rider, or the accident damaged the rider badly. 
But as I said, I'm not knocking any particular sport (I responded to you mentioning eventing) - if the sport involves horses, accidents will happen.

If you follow any horse sport, it's extremely naive to continue to attack racing. If you support the hardline detractors of racing, make no mistake, eventing is next in line, followed by all the rest. 

As was said earlier, this is about risk, not cruelty. 

As for sending through the sales, that is the racehorses means of sale. From the Breeze-ups, to the in training sales, the yearling sales etc. It's how the good and the slow change hands. It's across the board. It has to be done that way because it's an industry. 
That said, it's not racehorses filling the desperate bottom end sales. 

Me, I'd prefer to see the BHA take more responsibility for following horses out of training. But then again, why should they when no other discipline does? At least they monitor and regulate all their registered horses whilst in training.


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## rhino (6 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			However I've also been at a Badminton where 3 horses didn't make it out of just over a hundred runners.
		
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Which year, which horses?


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## rhino (6 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			I'd like to see the actual stats, if you are going to use them as an argument, 
not just you having 'seen them on another thread'.
		
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What, you haven't bothered to check the statistics?




			At present overall about 2 in every thousand runners are fatalities. Flat and All Weather racing accounts for around 0.6 fatalities of every thousand runners, Jump racing accounts for just over 4 fatalities of every thousand runners.
		
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http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/injuries-fatalities.asp


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## Caledonia (6 May 2012)

rhino said:



			Which year, which horses?
		
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It was in the early nineties - can't remember what date, one horse was Toddy's, it got caught in a tiger trap style fence and broke a leg, I think - I'm trying to find the results - guess what - really hard to access ......


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## Caledonia (6 May 2012)

rhino said:



			What, you haven't bothered to check the statistics?



http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/injuries-fatalities.asp

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Actually, I have. I have the 2006 BHA report on horses leaving training, and I follow racing every day. It's simple to work out percentages for times of year etc simply by researching the statistics on the RP results page. 

I was asking for cptrayes proof, as one horse in 250 RACES seemed a little out .....


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Yet again, more nonsense presented as fact. 1 to 2 horses do NOT die every race meeting. Where do you find the stats for that?
		
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I didn't get the stats for that from anywhere,, principally because I did not write it.  Isn't it amazing how often on forums people get accused of writing things that they never did ?


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			As for sending through the sales, that is the racehorses means of sale. From the Breeze-ups, to the in training sales, the yearling sales etc. It's how the good and the slow change hands. It's across the board. It has to be done that way because it's an industry. 
That said, it's not racehorses filling the desperate bottom end sales.
		
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It does not have to be done that way and plenty of responsible horse owners do not do it that way. When my friend's hurdler knackered his tendons and could no longer race he gave him a year's rest and rehomed him for free with an equine masseur.  One of my ex-racers came to me direct from the trainer after a year's rest for a hind leg suspensory injury.

It is done that way because it is easiest for the industry, true, but it is not true that it has to be done that way, especially with the failed horses.


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## Caledonia (6 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I didn't get the stats for that from anywhere,, principally because I did not write it.  Isn't it amazing how often on forums people get accused of writing things that they never did ?
		
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Apologies, you implicated that in you post. As it's not fact, why say it though?


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Apologies, you implicated that in you post. As it's not fact, why say it though?
		
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I implicated* NO SUCH THING*

*I DID NOT SAY IT*


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

losing the will to live.


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

mistake


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## Caledonia (6 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			It does not have to be done that way and plenty of responsible horse owners do not do it that way. When my friend's hurdler knackered his tendons and could no longer race he gave him a year's rest and rehomed him for free with an equine masseur.  One of my ex-racers came to me direct from the trainer after a year's rest for a hind leg suspensory injury.

It is done that way because it is easiest for the industry, true, but it is not true that it has to be done that way, especially with the failed horses.
		
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Of course it has to be done that way - for the youngstock, or horses in training unless a deal is struck with the agreement of all parties beforehand there is no other way for pinhookers and producers, agents and buyers to assess all the horses together to decide who they want to go with. Lots of rqacehorses are in syndicate or multiple ownership, and it is the only way to dissolve a partnership.

It's not organised for the failed ones? What sales are specific to failed racers? there is a minimum bid in place at all the registered bloodstock sales.  If they go through normal sales there is no difference to other horses and ponies going through?

ETA, given your last 2 posts, I see you can't sustain your argument.


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Some big owners own studs, and the geldings that raced for them retired there, JP McManus for one, but I'm unsure where you've seen geldings listed as retired to stud?
		
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I haven't seen geldings listed as retired to stud.  If the numbers of horses published as retired to stud is true, and the majority of those are mares as they must be because most of the rest are geldings, then by my calculations studs must be so deep in mares that they can't move.


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## Caledonia (6 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I haven't seen geldings listed as retired to stud.  If the numbers of horses published as retired to stud is true, and the majority of those are mares as they must be because most of the rest are geldings, then by my calculations studs must be so deep in mares that they can't move.
		
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What calculations? Put the figures up that you find so hard to believe.


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Of course it has to be done that way - for the youngstock, or horses in training unless a deal is struck with the agreement of all parties beforehand there is no other way for pinhookers and producers, agents and buyers to assess all the horses together to decide who they want to go with. Lots of rqacehorses are in syndicate or multiple ownership, and it is the only way to dissolve a partnership.

It's not organised for the failed ones? What sales are specific to failed racers? there is a minimum bid in place at all the registered bloodstock sales.  If they go through normal sales there is no difference to other horses and ponies going through?
		
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Well you aren't right there either. My failed horse with the hindlimb injury was bought from a syndicate of 200 owners without going through an auction.

Your argument fails because of the sheer number of racehorses that are NOT sold through auctions but by private sales and through bloodstock agents outside auctions.


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## Caledonia (6 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Well you aren't right there either. My failed horse with the hindlimb injury was bought from a syndicate of 200 owners without going through an auction.

Your argument fails because of the sheer number of racehorses that are NOT sold through auctions but by private sales and through bloodstock agents outside auctions.
		
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As I said, there are not sales for failed horses. Which part of that did you fail to understand? An injured horse would not be allowed to go through a registered sale. 

Have you been to any of the sales? Do you know how they operate? They are how the industry operates in the main. Yes, there are private sales outside the main sales, but most of the sales in bloodstock starts at the foal sales, where the pinhookers or producers buy from the studs and breeders. 
These will go back through the ring as yearlings, or 2yos, and be bought by agents either under instruction from an existing client (Godolphin, Coolmore, or the like) or by trainers themselves, or by agents for themselves, who have pre-arranged sending them to trainers. Occasionally, some owners buy themselves at the sales, but that is not common. 
Agents and trainers know their clients, and what they are looking for. 

It's not the same as buying a sports horse.


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## cptrayes (6 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			An injured horse would not be allowed to go through a registered sale.
		
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You have to be kidding me!

You ask me if I have ever been to bloodstock sales (yes, often, and bought, and sold) and then you say this ^^^

Have you got your eyes wide shut??????

Both Ascot and Doncaster sell unwarranted horses. At Ascot they are declared as unwarranted. At Doncaster they are sold "subject to vet" on the day by vets at the sales, and if not declared as subject to vet they are completely unwarranted. 

And I can guarantee you from personal experience that a number of those unwarranted horses will be suffering from performance affecting problems which happen not to show in the sales environment. I bought a 4 year old with such a laryngeal paralysis problem that he could not canter at all. A friend bought a chaser with an unstable sacroiliac joint who was never able to race and was shot after a few months attempting to get him right. That  friend also went to buy a pointer privately and was refused a blood test during the vetting. He walked away and the horse went through the subsequent Doncaster auction and was returned again to the one after that. 

You live in a fairy dairy land if you think no horse unfit to race again goes through Doncaster or Ascot.


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## fidleyspromise (6 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			...Why is fifty horses dying through racing worse than fifty horses dying through injuries on the road or in fields?...
		
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Over2You said:



			The former is in the name of "sport" and entirely preventable. The latter are accidents!! That is the difference!!
		
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But the horses wouldn't be out on the roads, if we didn't enjoy riding them, so yes while its an accident (as are those racing), its also preventable as I put the horse in that position.

Why is it acceptable and classed an accident if a horse dies on the road, but not if a horse dies racing?
Does this mean, if I was out racing my horse alongside another, on the beach, for instance, and she broke her leg, that it isn't acceptable?


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## Caledonia (6 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			You have to be kidding me!

You ask me if I have ever been to bloodstock sales (yes, often, and bought, and sold) and then you say this ^^^

Have you got your eyes wide shut??????

Both Ascot and Doncaster sell unwarranted horses. At Ascot they are declared as unwarranted. At Doncaster they are sold "subject to vet" on the day by vets at the sales, and if not declared as subject to vet they are completely unwarranted. 

And I can guarantee you from personal experience that a number of those unwarranted horses will be suffering from performance affecting problems which happen not to show in the sales environment. I bought a 4 year old with such a laryngeal paralysis problem that he could not canter at all. A friend bought a chaser with an unstable sacroiliac joint who was never able to race and was shot after a few months attempting to get him right. That  friend also went to buy a pointer privately and was refused a blood test during the vetting. He walked away and the horse went through the subsequent Doncaster auction and was returned again to the one after that. 

You live in a fairy dairy land if you think no horse unfit to race again goes through Doncaster or Ascot.
		
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I said 'injured'. You really do need to read what I write before you pull it apart. 

I have been to sales where injured horses have been taken out. There's a huge difference between a horse that will probably not stand up to more racing (which is entirely up to the seller to find out), and a visibly lame one. There would be little or no point anyway putting a lame horse through, because nobody would buy one. And as I said, there is a minimum bid to protect the horses that might not sell. If you or your friends choose to buy a horse not subject to vet, then more fool them or you.

All this is irrelevant because no sales are just for failed horses, which you seem to be trying to disprove because some go through that aren't right. 

I can list you hundreds of horses that I know about that have gone through sales, and are perfectly sound but slow, I can equally list you a load of dealers who sell sports horses in a much dodgier fashion. 

On that front racing is far more honest than any other discipline.

I get it, you have tunnel vision and hate racing. That's fine. Just don't indulge your bigotry by using your opinions as facts.


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## Racergirl (6 May 2012)

I really didnt intend to get involved with this, but I do feel the need to point something out...

Whoever it was who said that they bought their horse off a syndicate - the reason they would have been able to do that is that a syndicate is a different form of ownership to a partnership or even a club.... 

just another example of not knowing before spouting....


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## Racergirl (6 May 2012)

Oh - and the most up to date list (that Im aware of) of horses injured and dead (both at home and on a racecourse) or retired is actually on a racing forum Im a regular on,people regualy contact trainers of injured horses to ask how they are (and trainers are 99% of the time happy to answer and are touched that joe public do actually care) - between the flat and NH this year so far its almost certainally more than 50, I will go off and count them up. The only way for racing to hopefully keep its critics happy (and the bashers bashing,cos lets face it - they arent ever going to change!) is to be as open as they can be. Weatherbys require ALL passports of any registered TB, in training or not, to be returned to them so that they can ammend all their records accordingly - likewise, whenever a filly/mare goes off to stud you have to re-register them as a broodmare - again, so they can be kept track of. 

probably doesnt help with anything,but im trying to keep out of the main argument here. I know that on the racecourses, the worst thing that they can do is not say anything at all.

In fact - as I type this, a horse has gone down in the stalls in the guineas - grey pearl. Nobody yp at the course has any idea what is going on, and all that does is leave racing open to peoples imaginations. Bad move Newmarket/BHA


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## Caledonia (6 May 2012)

Racergirl said:



			Oh - and the most up to date list (that Im aware of) of horses injured and dead (both at home and on a racecourse) or retired is actually on a racing forum Im a regular on,people regualy contact trainers of injured horses to ask how they are (and trainers are 99% of the time happy to answer and are touched that joe public do actually care) - between the flat and NH this year so far its almost certainally more than 50, I will go off and count them up. The only way for racing to hopefully keep its critics happy (and the bashers bashing,cos lets face it - they arent ever going to change!) is to be as open as they can be. Weatherbys require ALL passports of any registered TB, in training or not, to be returned to them so that they can ammend all their records accordingly - likewise, whenever a filly/mare goes off to stud you have to re-register them as a broodmare - again, so they can be kept track of. 

probably doesnt help with anything,but im trying to keep out of the main argument here. I know that on the racecourses, the worst thing that they can do is not say anything at all.

In fact - as I type this, a horse has gone down in the stalls in the guineas - grey pearl. Nobody yp at the course has any idea what is going on, and all that does is leave racing open to peoples imaginations. Bad move Newmarket/BHA
		
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Just watching this - I agree, the silence over what's happened is wrong. Apparently she just collapsed.


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## skint1 (6 May 2012)

OP- here's something to consider, a horse that breaks down at a racetrack doesn't suffer long, whereas a horse that is fatally injured in a field or stable at home may have a suffering wait of many hours til they are (a) found by their owner (b) despatched by a vet.  Having waited that long wait with my friend's beloved boy and nothing we could do to ease his suffering I would say that is worth considering in any discussion about the "evils" of racing.

Another thing to consider is that without the racing industry our own horses would not have many of the medical treatments available to them that they do.


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## Kadastorm (6 May 2012)

Ok Over2You, yes, fifty horses in five months is horrid, even if it had been one, it would still be upsetting, no one is denying that. 

The BHA is always trying to find ways to improve tracks and prevent these accidents happening. Trainers, owners, grooms and the jockeys are always working to make sure their horses come home safe and sound. 

I am pro racing, but i hate seeing horses take crashing falls. It can happen anywhere, i saw a terrible fall at a Riding Club show in March which could have easily killed both the horse and rider, fortunately they were not. 

I do understand that you have a strong opinion about racing but some of your arguments have been ridiculous. Instead of just looking on websites which can give misleading information i really do think you should visit a racing yard. see their horses and the level of care they get and get a trainers/grooms/owners/jockeys view on things. 

Horses will still die in racing, you wont stop that and you will never see racing banned. If racing was banned, all other disciplines will also need to be banned as will all horse riding as there is risk in all things to do with horses.


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## Wagtail (6 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			You have to be kidding me!

You ask me if I have ever been to bloodstock sales (yes, often, and bought, and sold) and then you say this ^^^

Have you got your eyes wide shut??????

Both Ascot and Doncaster sell unwarranted horses. At Ascot they are declared as unwarranted. At Doncaster they are sold "subject to vet" on the day by vets at the sales, and if not declared as subject to vet they are completely unwarranted. 

And I can guarantee you from personal experience that a number of those unwarranted horses will be suffering from performance affecting problems which happen not to show in the sales environment. I bought a 4 year old with such a laryngeal paralysis problem that he could not canter at all. A friend bought a chaser with an unstable sacroiliac joint who was never able to race and was shot after a few months attempting to get him right. That  friend also went to buy a pointer privately and was refused a blood test during the vetting. He walked away and the horse went through the subsequent Doncaster auction and was returned again to the one after that. 

You live in a fairy dairy land if you think no horse unfit to race again goes through Doncaster or Ascot.
		
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I have to agree. I have known of several horses sold with debilitating conditions. We have one here, sired by Kahyasi but not raced. He passed through two private homes in five months after being sold at auction. He was bought out of a field by my livery client but proved unridable due to severe kissing spine.


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## Amymay (6 May 2012)

Op, get lost.


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## Moomin1 (6 May 2012)

Surely you all realise that this is exactly what OP is wanting?!!  Lots of interest and reactions?!


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## Alec Swan (6 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			I've asked this before,  and I'm working on the basis,  that rather like the irritating child who continues to ask the same question,  again and again,  in the hope of an answer;

Can someone please explain to me just why anyone takes Over2You,  and his or her inane statements seriously,  and credits them with reasoned replies?

Alec.
		
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Moomin1 said:



			Surely you all realise that this is exactly what OP is wanting?!!  Lots of interest and reactions?!

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Well HOO-BLOODY-RAY,  FINALLY A VOTE OF CONFIDENCE!!

I've felt like a voice in the wilderness.  Please boys and girls,  wake up;  Over2You is a TROLL.  

I have yet to read one single constructive or sensible response from our troll,  and yet everyone seems hell bent on pandering to his/her lunacy.  WHY?

Alec.


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## Kadastorm (7 May 2012)

I do agree with you Alec. 

but it is keeping me entertained, all of this...badminton cancelled so i had no plans and so i wanted to feed some trolls


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## Alec Swan (7 May 2012)

amymay said:



			Op, get lost.
		
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Another vote,  excellent.  I'm doing better than Sarkozy. 

Alec.


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## Kadastorm (7 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Another vote,  excellent.  I'm doing better than Sarkozy. 

Alec.
		
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like.


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## EstherYoung (7 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Racehorse deaths are recorded. No other sport is. 

Until there is a comparable record of the fate of ALL event horses, SJ, DR, Endurance etc, racing will always be open to biased criticism from the likes of yourself who abuse the fact that racing is the only responsible body recording every horse that competes, and make it to be a crime.
		
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I probably shouldn't bite, but this isn't entirely true.

EGB holds details of any at their events. In this country we don't quite go as far as they do in the states where any horse that dies within a week (I believe) of an event has to be reported to the governing body even if the cause is totally unrelated, but we certainly have the details of any that died at the event. Luckily they are very few and far between, and mostly they are down to tragic accidents that could happen anywhere: a kick, an RTA, a horse that fell in the horsebox. We are very privileged to have intensive veterinary support before, during and after rides, and we are the only sport out there where you get failed if your horse isn't fit to continue at the end. What that means is that for a 100 miler, at the final vetting the vets will only pass those who are fit to do another 15 miles.


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## Wagtail (7 May 2012)

EstherYoung said:



			we are the only sport out there where you get failed if your horse isn't fit to continue at the end. What that means is that for a 100 miler, at the final vetting the vets will only pass those who are fit to do another 15 miles.
		
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What a good practice.


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## Clava (7 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			If 1 in 250 times anyone anywhere in the country hacked a horse died, none of us would hack horses.

Your argument does not work for me. It is about level of risk, not complete avoidance or no horse would ever be born, it would be too much risk to the mare to breed from it.
		
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Quite agree.


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## Caledonia (7 May 2012)

EstherYoung said:



			I probably shouldn't bite, but this isn't entirely true.

EGB holds details of any at their events. In this country we don't quite go as far as they do in the states where any horse that dies within a week (I believe) of an event has to be reported to the governing body even if the cause is totally unrelated, but we certainly have the details of any that died at the event. Luckily they are very few and far between, and mostly they are down to tragic accidents that could happen anywhere: a kick, an RTA, a horse that fell in the horsebox. We are very privileged to have intensive veterinary support before, during and after rides, and we are the only sport out there where you get failed if your horse isn't fit to continue at the end. What that means is that for a 100 miler, at the final vetting the vets will only pass those who are fit to do another 15 miles.
		
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Are these freely available on the internet for everyone to view? In racing, the results are usually up within a couple of hours of the race, so if a horse is injured put down on the course anyone can see immediately. 

I know the Eventing body records everything at an event, but there is no public access to it. 

You are not the only sport to fail if your horse isn't fit to continue, btw, there is a trot up at the start of a 2/3 day, and a trot up before the SJ phase on the third day. There is also regular testing for horses and riders at the top level.

However it is great to know that endurance is on the ball with their records. Can you direct me to where they can be seen? Thanks.


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## EstherYoung (7 May 2012)

Caledonia - I wasn't trying to say one discipline was better than another. The statement was made that these figures aren't recorded by other disciplines, but in fact they are. Maybe not publicly, but they are recorded and monitored. The insurance crawl all over them for one thing... I am sure that EGB or SERC would provide the (thankfully very very small and normally non-ride-related) numbers if anyone asked them. 

Nb The difference with our final vettings is that they are at the end of the competition. Whatever placing someone has, that doesn't hold till they've passed the final vetting.


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## Caledonia (7 May 2012)

EstherYoung said:



			Caledonia - I wasn't trying to say one discipline was better than another. The statement was made that these figures aren't recorded by other disciplines, but in fact they are. Maybe not publicly, but they are recorded and monitored. The insurance crawl all over them for one thing... I am sure that EGB or SERC would provide the (thankfully very very small and normally non-ride-related) numbers if anyone asked them. 

Nb The difference with our final vettings is that they are at the end of the competition. Whatever placing someone has, that doesn't hold till they've passed the final vetting.
		
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Thanks Esther - that's my point really - the information is freely available in racing, but not in any other sport. So anyone can use any figures from racing and manipulate them, but other sports restrict that information.

Thanks for the info about the vetting in Endurance. I suppose due to the nature of the sport it's necessary, as it's endurance - literally! - right to the end, whereas in eventing the endurance phase is the second last.


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## Racergirl (7 May 2012)

Kadastorm said:



			I do agree with you Alec. 

but it is keeping me entertained, all of this...badminton cancelled so i had no plans and so i wanted to feed some trolls 

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 that was my situation too - and I was more interested in putting things right about the ownership thing than  the rest


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## ClassicG&T (7 May 2012)

By posting this thread you are asking for an arguement. 

yes, 50 horses died. But how many have raced, then work out the percentage.
How many horses are there in the UK, then work out the percentage that have died.

I would turn your attention to the neglect of the horses in the Middle East or something.


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## Ibblebibble (7 May 2012)

wewillshowthem said:



			yes, 50 horses died. But how many have raced, then work out the percentage.
How many horses are there in the UK, then work out the percentage that have died.
		
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ahh but then that would spoil the argument as it would prove that as humans we use horse for our 'entertainment' on a daily basis and manage to kill them quite frequently!!
Racing is an easy target as the figures are all there to be seen and be shocked at.  If the figures were available of horses that are injured or pts as a result of other sports were available too i think the race haters would be quite shocked!!


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## catwithclaws (7 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			So, *FIFTY*
PS: Who is spouting a load of twaddle now?? That (twaddle) is the correct spelling of the word - not "twoddle"!!
		
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jesus...get a life, you are just correcting others spelling and punctuation because you are clearly running out of reasoning for your own argument. if you want to continue arguing your point, then argue it - but for heavens sake stop correcting others spelling and get on with it!


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## catwithclaws (7 May 2012)

amymay said:



			Op, get lost.
		
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and that was an epic response


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## ester (7 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Ah, so you were wrong? One in 250 runners, not one in 250 races?
		
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surely that makes the stats worse, given that there are multiple runners in a race.. ie the stats per race would therefore be say, if 10 per race one death per 25 races


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## Little Squirrel (7 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			Oh, but I *HAVE*!! My boy was bought at a bin-end Thoroughbred auction almost eight years ago. Took me a while to rehabilitate him (he had been abused through being whipped and hit around the head at the racing yard he was on before I got him), but he is a very happy chap now. He's completely spoiled and has *NEVER* seen a whip since coming to me. The only racehorses that are treated like kings are the ones that are making/or have made lots of money.
		
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What bullshit! I'm sorry but I can't abide liars. I have never known a racehorse to be afraid of the whip and I must have ridden well over 500 different one's. I have sat on plenty of showjumpers who are afraid of the stick because it has been used in a diferent context. 

Racehorses DO NOT get hit over the head. Ever. 
OP you are a completley irritable person who is just looking for an argument. I suggest you'd be better off going spending some time with your poor abused ex racehorse and sorting out all the problems that the racing world gave him. *rolls eyes*


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## Saucisson (7 May 2012)

I know very little about racing and normally steer clear of any threads like these but I do worry that anti-racing groups will threaten racing in the UK.

I am sure that if the UK was no longer an attractive proposition for some of the (hugely wealthy) owners they would just go elsewhere to race their horses.  Other countries with far fewer welfare and safety laws (for horses and jockeys).  

I may be wrong in presuming but if I were a racehorse, I'd much prefer to be in living and racing in the UK than somewhere like Saudi Arabia or Mexico.  

Racing thoroughbreds won't stop if the UK stops, it would just get pushed out to places where horses are REALLY treated as commodities. Where if they fall ill or fall short they don't get shot, they get sold to some horse-drawn cab driver and spend 10 miserable years hobbling round some sandy *****hole.

Sure, the pictures always look terrible when the horses fall and it's sad when they die but it's a lot sadder for those who know and work with the horse than those who've just seen the pictures.

(Plus we need the tax money the industry generates  )


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## Caledonia (7 May 2012)

ester said:



			surely that makes the stats worse, given that there are multiple runners in a race.. ie the stats per race would therefore be say, if 10 per race one death per 25 races 

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It's the same ratio, just a different way of putting it. Exactly proving how stats can be manipulated. For you, one death every 25 races sounds worse than one death in 250 runners, but it's exactly the same statistic. 

Although that approximation came from the BHA website, I did the figures one year for the first three months of the year, counting every fatality, and every runner, and had that work out at 1 death per 682 runners, or some such. Although that included some flat races. I haven't kept it, I did it for a forum somewhere.


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## Cuffey (8 May 2012)

I have always believed and continue to believe that ''in the field'' is the most dangerous place for horses without even counting grass sickness, laminitis etc

Sure every single one of us know of a horse or horses which:
1 Broke a leg in the field
2 Broke leg/neck jumping out of a field
3. Kicked through a metal gate, resulting damage either finished competition career or led to horse being put down
etc etc

The latest casualty to end its competitive career but not its life!
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/387/312227.html


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## Mitchyden (8 May 2012)

I'm sure that far more horses have died within the last year of laminits through neglect of the owner. Don't take this the wrong way though as I know for a fact that not all laminitis is the owner's fault but many cases are. I've known three horses pts due to being turned out on knee high grass and forgotten about for the summer!!


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## Allover (8 May 2012)

FWIW i think that people like over2you are needed in this world to make sure that animal welfare is kept at the forefront of peoples minds. 

A lot of posters seem to be missing the point that the OP is only talking about deaths to horses whilst racing, not what happens when they are riding out, in the field, etc etc. These are deaths ON THE RACETRACK, and if people like the OP keep on and on hopefully there will come a time when racing does not leave a sour taste in the mouth from watching horses breaking down with such regularity. That there will come a time when such a high percentage will not be destroyed because of breaking a leg/doing a tendon whilst running.

And to all of those who say that racehorses are kept like kings and never abused in anyway......you are wrong. Seen it with my own eyes (as i have in all the "major" disciplines) some people are greedy, other not nice and others have fallen on challenging times but sure as eggs is eggs its the animals that suffer the fall out. 

I would like to make it perfectly clear that i in no way want to see an end to racing.

p.s. I dont give a monkeys bum if my spelling is out or my grammer and puntuation are off


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## Alec Swan (8 May 2012)

amandap said:



			.......

ps. why is saying that level of deaths in a sport is unacceptable "bashing"?
		
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All those who get on the back of a horse are putting themselves,  and the horse at risk.  To claim that the risk of accident for a competing horse,  is unacceptable,  would mean I suppose that we don't compete in partnership with a horse.

The combination of horse and human has always had a high degree of risk attached to it.  It always has,  and it always will.  Both horses and humans die,  on occasions.  That's the way it is,  I'm sorry to tell you.

Alec.


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## Elf On A Shelf (8 May 2012)

Just a thought - how many riders have been killed eventing in the last decade? I can only think of 2 jockeys that have lost their life in recent times. So if horse deaths in racing is unacceptable then why are human deaths in eventing accepted? Humans are just animals too afterall.


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## Over2You (8 May 2012)

Cuffey said:



			I have always believed and continue to believe that ''in the field'' is the most dangerous place for horses without even counting grass sickness, laminitis etc

Sure every single one of us know of a horse or horses which:
1 Broke a leg in the field
2 Broke leg/neck jumping out of a field
3. Kicked through a metal gate, resulting damage either finished competition career or led to horse being put down
etc etc

The latest casualty to end its competitive career but not its life!
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/387/312227.html

Click to expand...

I have seven friends who are also horse owners. Between us, we own twenty horses. Just one of those friends had a horse who slipped in his field - resulting in a broken leg. I have never had a horse badly injured in a field.  When I was a child, I worked at a riding school/livery. Out of the five years I was there, and out of the forty plus horses that were stabled there, *NONE* suffered a fatal field accident.


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## Over2You (8 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			All those who get on the back of a horse are putting themselves,  and the horse at risk.  To claim that the risk of accident for a competing horse,  is unacceptable,  would mean I suppose that we don't compete in partnership with a horse.

The combination of horse and human has always had a high degree of risk attached to it.  It always has,  and it always will.  Both horses and humans die,  on occasions.  That's the way it is,  I'm sorry to tell you.

Alec.
		
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Except in racing, the risks are a damned site higher than in *ANY* other discipline!!

I don't know the exact number of deaths in the likes of show jumping or eventing, but what I do know is the risk has been significantly lowered in those sports. As I said before, I can count on one hand, the number of fatalities I have witnessed in the 20+ years of watching show jumping. I would say that reflects how low the death rate is across the whole of the discipline. If eventing or show jumping killed anywhere near as many horses as racing does, then you can bet your bottom dollar that the likes of Animal Aid would be all over them. 

It also revolts me that I have been labeled a "troll" for expressing my disgust of a sport that has killed more than fifty horses in a little over four months. Don't get back to me saying that just ??% of x-number of horses have died. All you would saying then is that if it is a small percentage, then it is perfectly justifiable. 

Racing *WILL* continue to kill an alarmingly high number of horses until drastic measures are taken to prevent such deaths.


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## olop (8 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			Except in racing, the risks are a damned site higher than in *ANY* other discipline!!

I don't know the exact number of deaths in the likes of show jumping or eventing, but what I do know is the risk has been significantly lowered in those sports. As I said before, I can count on one hand, the number of fatalities I have witnessed in the 20+ years of watching show jumping. I would say that reflects how low the death rate is across the whole of the discipline. If eventing or show jumping killed anywhere near as many horses as racing does, then you can bet your bottom dollar that the likes of Animal Aid would be all over them. 

It also revolts me that I have been labeled a "troll" for expressing my disgust of a sport that has killed more than fifty horses in a little over four months. Don't get back to me saying that just ??% of x-number of horses have died. All you would saying then is that if it is a small percentage, then it is perfectly justifiable. 

Racing *WILL* continue to kill an alarmingly high number of horses until drastic measures are taken to prevent such deaths.
		
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Oter users are calling you a troll because all you seem to do on the forum is spread your c**p about racing & point us in the direction of an "organisation" that is also full of c**p.

If you feel so strongly about it all go set your own forum up where you can get people involved that hate racing as much as you do.  You can rant until your heart's content then


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## Over2You (8 May 2012)

Little Squirrel said:



			What bullshit! I'm sorry but I can't abide liars. I have never known a racehorse to be afraid of the whip and I must have ridden well over 500 different one's. I have sat on plenty of showjumpers who are afraid of the stick because it has been used in a diferent context. 

Racehorses DO NOT get hit over the head. Ever. 
OP you are a completley irritable person who is just looking for an argument. I suggest you'd be better off going spending some time with your poor abused ex racehorse and sorting out all the problems that the racing world gave him. *rolls eyes*
		
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How dare you call me a liar!! Can you personally vouch for every single trainer, lad, lassie, and jockey in the country?? If not, then shut up!! What about the infamous video of a jockey head-butting his horse?? Surely to goodness that is proof that racehorses have deliberately been hit on the head!! It should also be noted that the jockey responsible for the former only received a one-day ban. A week or two prior to that, a jockey got a ten-day ban for being rude to stewards. Good to know the BHA had their priorities in check on those occasions.


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## tristar (8 May 2012)

overtoyou, i don't think you're a troll, one thing you said struck a cord with me, that was how can someone send a horse to the grand national then be devastated when it gets unavoidably fatally injured, through no fault of its own incompetence, due to other fallers  etc, if the horse means that much to you, you put the horse's welfare before monetry gain and the prestige and fame.

it called being unselfish.


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## Caledonia (8 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			How dare you call me a liar!! Can you personally vouch for every single trainer, lad, lassie, and jockey in the country?? If not, then shut up!! What about the infamous video of a jockey head-butting his horse?? Surely to goodness that is proof that racehorses have deliberately been hit on the head!! It should also be noted that the jockey responsible for the former only received a one-day ban. A week or two prior to that, a jockey got a ten-day ban for being rude to stewards. Good to know the BHA had their priorities in check on those occasions. 

Click to expand...

LOL - Nutter alert! 

Out of all that film evidence of every race in the whole of Ireland and the UK, and reporting that is the best case of abuse you can come up with? Racing should be quaking in it's boots then! 

How about Laura Renwick hammering her horse live on TV? Or is that allowed cos its SJ?


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## Leaf (8 May 2012)

I have witnessed in the 20+ years of watching show jumping.

so you haven't worked in showjumping? I have and you may not have witnessed a fatality, but i have many behind the scenes and other atrocities, you just don't get to see it.

again I ask you O2Y what would be your ideal solution?


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## dominobrown (8 May 2012)

Some interesting point made here, but as jockmaster says, what is the soloution?
Ban racing?

Ok I get the point this thread is about racing, but every time you ride a horse, take a horse and the roads, but it in a trailer etc you are putting the horse at risk.
The BHA work very hard to improve racing, and if you have senisble solutions ring them up and they would welocme your suggestions.
To me, its obvious from some of the comments and suggestions on this thread is to kill all horses so no suffering can continue. I know some horses enjoy racing as much as some horses enjoy hacking etc, but they are at risk doing these activities. Lets remove the risk and just kill every horse so no horse can ever die again. O2Y- I will give you the gun... off you go... put them out of their 'misery'.
Got a better idea?


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## Echo Bravo (8 May 2012)

Did wonder how long O2Y could hold her breathe,before spouting again. Why has she/he becomed glued on Horseracing whether jump or flat, as many of us have said horses going long trips for slaughter/donkeys/camels badly treated in the East. I support WHW and Spana with money, when I can afford it. I don't support PETA and the others as they cause more pain and suffering than needs be.Many people who own/have owned/bred Racehorses support the Charities that help them and the jockeies that get injured.


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## luckyoldme (8 May 2012)

Im not fond of racing myself but this is the horse and hound forum so would nt expect much sympaythy for my views.. 
This forum though sometimes resembles a pack of wolves. Some of the arguments are pretty daft too... including the one about horses prefferring to race then to not be born.?
I also found the link to the article about broken legs written by two vets fascinating.
Overall i think over2you is entitled to her opinion and a lot of those spouting off on here would nt have the guts to stand up for their own beliefs with so many people against them.


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## Echo Bravo (8 May 2012)

And Luckyoldyou as you can say what you want,just like O2Y and yes I would stand up for what I believe in as many posters on here would do as well, so stick that in your pipe and spit it out, why don't you.


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## Over2You (9 May 2012)

olop said:



			Oter users are calling you a troll because all you seem to do on the forum is spread your c**p about racing & point us in the direction of an "organisation" that is also full of c**p.

If you feel so strongly about it all go set your own forum up where you can get people involved that hate racing as much as you do.  You can rant until your heart's content then 

Click to expand...

More than fifty horses dying on the track is a load of crap, is it?? Animal Aid (which has helped to prosecute countless individuals and companies for animal abuse) is full of crap, is it?? 

You must be seriously deluded if you think racing is squeaky clean. That it strives to make things safer for horses (when it clearly is not)!!


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## Over2You (9 May 2012)

tristar said:



			overtoyou, i don't think you're a troll, one thing you said struck a cord with me, that was how can someone send a horse to the grand national then be devastated when it gets unavoidably fatally injured, through no fault of its own incompetence, due to other fallers  etc, if the horse means that much to you, you put the horse's welfare before monetry gain and the prestige and fame.

it called being unselfish.
		
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Thank you for helping to restore my faith of there being some humanity on this forum.

Peace and blessings to you.


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## Over2You (9 May 2012)

luckyoldme said:



			Im not fond of racing myself but this is the horse and hound forum so would nt expect much sympaythy for my views.. 
This forum though sometimes resembles a pack of wolves. Some of the arguments are pretty daft too... including the one about horses prefferring to race then to not be born.?
I also found the link to the article about broken legs written by two vets fascinating.
Overall i think over2you is entitled to her opinion and a lot of those spouting off on here would nt have the guts to stand up for their own beliefs with so many people against them.
		
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Many thanks for your support. This is a subject I feel very strongly about, and I cannot believe how many of the pro-racers on here are willing to overlook all those deaths. It's sickening!!

Warmest wishes to you.


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## Moomin1 (9 May 2012)

There are extremists on both sides of this argument in this thread and it's just going to go on and on.

Getting boring now.


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## Little Squirrel (9 May 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			There are extremists on both sides of this argument in this thread and it's just going to go on and on.

Getting boring now.
		
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It's was boring at the first post to be honest.


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## applecart14 (9 May 2012)

Well done to the OP for having the courage of her convictions.  Its extremely hard to try to persuade others to your way of thinking or even to just voice your concerns when everyone else thinks differently.

I have been slated on this site before now and its not pleasant.  I think the toll from deaths on british racecourse is totally digusting, 826 deaths in 1884 days.  Totally unacceptable.  Its all very well going on about horses going for slaughter abroad, etc, there are many worse things that happen to animals every day in our country, like shampoo in rabbits eyes for animal experiments, animals religiously slaughtered that can take 120 seconds of agony, terrified beyond belief, whilst they bleed out, chickens that enter the scalding tank whilst still alive as they lifted their heads and missed the blade which was meant to sever their heads etc, etc, etc.  Lovely pleasant world we live in.  If only we knew the horrors that remain hidden.  However all this is irrelevant.  We are talking about racehorses.

The OP and others have made valid points and I congratulate them on having the courage to do so.  I also feel the same.  It is not acceptable.  Racehorse Deathwatch (Animal Aid) only record deaths on british racetracks.  They do not record all the other deaths, horses that have broken down from racehorses and who are pts days after, horses that die on the gallops at home, fit and healthy horses that end up at market with no value after being passed from pillar to post, to be found that the novice rider they end up with that only wants to hack once a week cannot cope with their exuberance and fitness level and ends up terrified with them.

I strongly dislike racing and I think Animal Aid do a brilliant job in highlighting these areas of concerns to us.  It is up to us to listen.  yes there are deaths through other sports, but not as many as in racing.


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## Alec Swan (9 May 2012)

applecart14 said:



			......., fit and healthy horses that end up at market with no value after being passed from pillar to post, to be found that the novice rider they end up with that only wants to hack once a week cannot cope with their exuberance and fitness level and ends up terrified with them.

.......
		
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You wont stop racing,  but that you realise.  Regarding the end of a relatively young animal's days,  instead of complaining on here,  tut-tutting,  and telling all those who will listen,  that the system is wrong,  why don't you join me,  and a few others,  and lobby the animal charities,  the Jockey Club and the BHS and put pressure upon Defra and Government,  to re-open abattoirs and permit a dignified,  humane and (importantly) a useful end to a life which is heading one way?

The Animal Charities,  who are only really interested in appeasing a clamouring public,  are responsible for the welfare and disposal mess that we're in,  and it's time that they faced that fact.  

Time for change,  and you can either sit back and whinge,  or complain to those who make the decisions which affect ours,  and importantly,  our horses lives.  Your choice.

Alec.

ps.  Applecart,  this isn't aimed specifically at you,  but is really for those who complain about welfare standards,  and then do little to correct them,  except whinge,  of course!! a.


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## Amymay (9 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			Many thanks for your support. This is a subject I feel very strongly about, and I cannot believe how many of the pro-racers on here are willing to overlook all those deaths. It's sickening!!
		
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So, what are exactly are you doing for this cause - apart from posting on a forum?

Genuinely interested - as so many of us seem to be 'armchair crusaders......'


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## Pale Rider (9 May 2012)

More than any other equestrian sport, racing is seen by and involves more of the general public. The crowds at race tracks and watching on the T.V. is proof of this.

Racing is highly policed and regulated as it should be. It is the sports own interest to be seen as 'horse friendly' as it is possible to be.

Every time a horse breaks down and dies or is PTS on the course is another reason for people to become anti the sport, which they do in ever increasing numbers.

Owners, some who are equestrian folk, others who own racehorces just because they can, have a greater responsibility than others involved to improve the general state of the sport. Mainly by virtue of the money they can invest in it.

Breeders, trainers and everyone else would suffer if it weren't for wealthy owners, and what they bring to the sport.

It is not right that TB horses are raced so young, and must have a direct bearing on some of the fatal injuries incurred. To increase the minimum age at which a horse can race would have a dramatic and significant effect on the cost of producing a race horse to owners, but would provide additional income in other areas. Perhaps better preparation for the starting gate would remove the ugly spectical of horses being dragged and manhandled in, this surely would be safer for all concerned.

If racing was seen to invest more in the rehomeing, rehabilitation or disposal of racehorses no longer wanted, this too would go some way to improve the image. I have known horses formally owned by very wealthy folk end up as rescue cases, this cannot be right.

Unfortunately, we now live in the age of the disposable horse. This is the same in many equine disciplines, like dressage or reining where the horses are started younger and no longer wanted at around 5, if the training techniques and pressures prove too much for the horse.

It is right that people highlight and draw attention to the dark side of equine sport, or any sport which uses animals for entertainment (many of which in our enlightened age are now illegal, and rightly so). But it is also right that people be allowed to compete and enjoy equine sport. With that comes great responsibility to enhance the welfare across the board for horses involved.

To argue against improved and improving welfare is shameful, to attempt to distract and cloud the issues is also weak and spineless. For people who love horses, to be involved in and succeed in competition is a fantastic thing (I include myself in this), but increasingly, the living debris of our sports leaves a very sour taste.


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## olop (9 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			More than fifty horses dying on the track is a load of crap, is it?? Animal Aid (which has helped to prosecute countless individuals and companies for animal abuse) is full of crap, is it?? 

You must be seriously deluded if you think racing is squeaky clean. That it strives to make things safer for horses (when it clearly is not)!!
		
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I have worked on racing yards & been involved in racing since I was very young - I am far from deluded!!!

50 horses probably died yesterday....today.....and tomorrow of far worse fates then being euthanised on the track by a professional from an injury.

You will never get racing banned no matter how much you rant about it, it provides too much money for this country, thousands of jobs & it also pumps in surplus money to todays veterinary advances that we as owners should be grateful for our own horse's wellbeing.


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## cptrayes (9 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Time for change,  and you can either sit back and whinge,  or complain to those who make the decisions which affect ours,  and importantly,  our horses lives.  Your choice.

Alec.
		
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Alec the people who make the decisions that Over2you, in a sometimes rather cack-handed way I do agree   (Sorry O2Y) is upset about - to risk their horses over and above what she considers an acceptable risk - are the owners and trainers who enter the horses for the races.  

She is not "sitting back and whinging". Short of writing a letter to every trainer and owner, she has no other way of communicating her unhappiness to them. By posting on here, she has clearly, by the reaction she gets, made a proportion of those people aware of her feelings, as she is perfectly entitled to do. No-one needs to respond to her, especially not in the way some people have.

If racing people had not engaged with her, this thread would have been dead on the day it was written.


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## luckyoldme (9 May 2012)

I have just read Pale Riders post and it touched on the age of these horses when they first race. 
There have been threads on here where many members were outraged when people were shown to be backing or working horses too young. I thought that it was generally accepted that  a horse may be backed and then turned away to mature at three years old.. maybe moving on to light work at four. 
How then can a tb race at two?
Ive never seen a thread address this issue and would be interested to know if those within the raceworld approve of this .. and no im not spoiling for a fight . I just don t get why the backing of any other horse at two would be a sin.


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## Leaf (9 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			Many thanks for your support. This is a subject I feel very strongly about, and I cannot believe how many of the pro-racers on here are willing to overlook all those deaths. It's sickening!!

and you are entitled to feel strongly about it as are others to feel passionately for racing,

 I think the reason that people react negatively to your posts is that you are pontificating at us all and shouting "fifty horses" etc. If you could try and put together a reasoned solution. ie do you want to ban all racing? or just ban NH,flat? firm ground? should a percentage of the prize money go to rehoming charities?
		
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## cptrayes (9 May 2012)

luckyoldme said:



			I have just read Pale Riders post and it touched on the age of these horses when they first race. 
There have been threads on here where many members were outraged when people were shown to be backing or working horses too young. I thought that it was generally accepted that  a horse may be backed and then turned away to mature at three years old.. maybe moving on to light work at four. 
How then can a tb race at two?
Ive never seen a thread address this issue and would be interested to know if those within the raceworld approve of this .. and no im not spoiling for a fight . I just don t get why the backing of any other horse at two would be a sin.
		
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LOM there is a considerable amount of proper evidence that flat racing TBs mature skeletally a lot earlier than other horses of heavier types, and also that fast work at a young age actually increases the strength of the bones. 

This is some justification for racing them young, but I agree with you that backing a horse which is not yet two years old and racing it well before its third birthday is far from ideal. The age they race at is about return on investment, not horse welfare.

The results, I think, can be seen in how  long these horses live for. My friend has just put down a 22 year old who raced at 2, having nursed her through athritic hocks, then knees, since she was 12.  Her IDx of the same size and sex was put down at 29, having barely had a lame day in her life until 28 when arthritis got her knees.

While two is not a big enough sample to prove anything, of course, and the two were of different breed as well,  it's my impression that this experience is far from unusual with horses which were trained to race young.  I suppose the big question is whether it actually matters that racing TBs could live another 5 or 10 years longer if they were not raced so young. And if they did, what on earth would we do then with all the spare flat racers that need other horses to die so that there is a home for them to go to?


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## lachlanandmarcus (9 May 2012)

We're not rabid and blinkered about all the aspects of racing. 

I think many people like me who love racing do have an issue with racing two year olds. I would be happy to see it phased out, even if the horses mature earlier I think it is not ideal. 

What I wouldnt then go on to do then is to then nibble away at every other aspect of racing bit by bit in order to take it apart. So dont take the above as the thin end of any wedge....


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## Imogen_ (9 May 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			More than any other equestrian sport, racing is seen by and involves more of the general public. The crowds at race tracks and watching on the T.V. is proof of this.

Racing is highly policed and regulated as it should be. It is the sports own interest to be seen as 'horse friendly' as it is possible to be.

Every time a horse breaks down and dies or is PTS on the course is another reason for people to become anti the sport, which they do in ever increasing numbers.

Owners, some who are equestrian folk, others who own racehorces just because they can, have a greater responsibility than others involved to improve the general state of the sport. Mainly by virtue of the money they can invest in it.

Breeders, trainers and everyone else would suffer if it weren't for wealthy owners, and what they bring to the sport.

It is not right that TB horses are raced so young, and must have a direct bearing on some of the fatal injuries incurred. To increase the minimum age at which a horse can race would have a dramatic and significant effect on the cost of producing a race horse to owners, but would provide additional income in other areas. Perhaps better preparation for the starting gate would remove the ugly spectical of horses being dragged and manhandled in, this surely would be safer for all concerned.

If racing was seen to invest more in the rehomeing, rehabilitation or disposal of racehorses no longer wanted, this too would go some way to improve the image. I have known horses formally owned by very wealthy folk end up as rescue cases, this cannot be right.

Unfortunately, we now live in the age of the disposable horse. This is the same in many equine disciplines, like dressage or reining where the horses are started younger and no longer wanted at around 5, if the training techniques and pressures prove too much for the horse.

It is right that people highlight and draw attention to the dark side of equine sport, or any sport which uses animals for entertainment (many of which in our enlightened age are now illegal, and rightly so). But it is also right that people be allowed to compete and enjoy equine sport. With that comes great responsibility to enhance the welfare across the board for horses involved.

To argue against improved and improving welfare is shameful, to attempt to distract and cloud the issues is also weak and spineless. For people who love horses, to be involved in and succeed in competition is a fantastic thing (I include myself in this), but increasingly, the living debris of our sports leaves a very sour taste.
		
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Thank you for posting. I have been reading this post, but have not seen the point in posting as it has been one big argument. 
I like the way you have put it. I think it is a wonderful sport but with (as with most) areas that require change!

It is not correct to bash and act as if racing should not take place, when some of the owners/trainers and connections are so passionate and hardworking/careful in what they do. But nor is it right to pretend it is all perfect. 

Doesn't hurt to enjoy something but remain sitting on the fence at times. For the people that slate continuously on the forum... Well it would be more respectful to hold a tongue and do something about it or maybe even open your mind a little to the entire industry and reality.


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## luckyoldme (9 May 2012)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			We're not rabid and blinkered about all the aspects of racing. 

I think many people like me who love racing do have an issue with racing two year olds. I would be happy to see it phased out, even if the horses mature earlier I think it is not ideal. 

What I wouldnt then go on to do then is to then nibble away at every other aspect of racing bit by bit in order to take it apart. So dont take the above as the thin end of any wedge....
		
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thankyou for this answer lachlan. i really am just curious . As I say im not a racing fan ... and I am genuinely interested to know if there are people inside the racing world who see the issues and want changes.
all i hear is for and against..but surely there must be a middle ground.


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## Imogen_ (9 May 2012)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			We're not rabid and blinkered about all the aspects of racing. 

I think many people like me who love racing do have an issue with racing two year olds. I would be happy to see it phased out, even if the horses mature earlier I think it is not ideal. 

What I wouldnt then go on to do then is to then nibble away at every other aspect of racing bit by bit in order to take it apart. So dont take the above as the thin end of any wedge....
		
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Also agree with this. There are some good arguments on here... But the best appear to be anyone with a bit of reasonability behind them and their reasons.


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## shortstuff99 (9 May 2012)

I don't normally get involved in these kinds of arguments and I'm not going to say who is right/wrong etc but in the interest of fair science wanted to say this. All the stats that are being thrown at each other aren't actually comparable. It seems like there are direct causes and indirect causes which are not directly comparable. A direct cause would be horse dies/injured jumping a fence or hit by a car, an indirect cause would be the horse breaks down and is pts or retired etc due to work load from said sport but not directly caused by the action of the sport so are not comparable. To make it fair you would have to compare either direct cause stats for horse sports or indirect cause stats or the both combined. the numbers would have to be comparable also so lower numbers would have to be extrapolated.

From this you could perhaps imply that racing is more directly dangerous or jumping is more indirectly dangerous. Either way we can not use these stats until we have all of the numbers!


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## Dab (9 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Alec the people who make the decisions that Over2you, in a sometimes rather cack-handed way I do agree   (Sorry O2Y) is upset about - to risk their horses over and above what she considers an acceptable risk - are the owners and trainers who enter the horses for the races.
		
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...and there in lie's the rub - who decides what is and isn't an acceptable risk to the horse? And who dictates that level of acceptability? one persons acceptable level of risk or even what constitues a risk maybe different from somebody elses.

The owner by allowing the horse to be entered into a race has accepted there is a risk to the horse, but they might just be thinking...well you know what i could turn my horse out in a field tomorrow and he could just as easily break a leg, bust a tendon, tweak a nerve hoolying around, so today i'm going to let my horse race because all things considered that level of risk is acceptable to me!

The OP clearly doesn't think that the current perceived level of risk to the horse is acceptable, and they would go as far as to dictate to others what that level of acceptability should be. But the OP needs to consider how they can make a valid and reasoned agruement to support their case, which so far they have failed to do.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

Dab said:



			...and there in lie's the rub - who decides what is and isn't an acceptable risk to the horse? And who dictates that level of acceptability? one persons acceptable level of risk or even what constitues a risk maybe different from somebody elses.

The owner by allowing the horse to be entered into a race has accepted there is a risk to the horse, but they might just be thinking...well you know what i could turn my horse out in a field tomorrow and he could just as easily break a leg, bust a tendon, tweak a nerve hoolying around, so today i'm going to let my horse race because all things considered that level of risk is acceptable to me!

The OP clearly doesn't think that the current perceived level of risk to the horse is acceptable, and they would go as far as to dictate to others what that level of acceptability should be. But the OP needs to consider how they can make a valid and reasoned agruement to support their case, which so far they have failed to do.
		
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Personally I think the issue is worthy of debate and some of the replies have moved the discussion forward.

People who think the risk is too high, purely on a personal level, are entitled to that feeling, and entitled to express it. The day that they cannot do so in this country will be a very bad day.


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## Dab (10 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Personally I think the issue is worthy of debate and some of the replies have moved the discussion forward.

People who think the risk is too high, purely on a personal level, are entitled to that feeling, and entitled to express it. The day that they cannot do so in this country will be a very bad day.
		
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Don't disagree.

Therefore can the OP define the topic under debate?


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

Dab said:



			Don't disagree.

Therefore can the OP define the topic under debate?
		
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I'm not sure she can, to be honest, she's obviously coming from a very emotional place. I don't know her but I would guess that she doesn't have the level of training in debate that others on this forum have.  Unlike some other posters, clearly not you, I don't think that bars her from raising the issue. Some of this debate has been quite worthwhile


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## Dab (10 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I'm not sure she can, to be honest, she's obviously coming from a very emotional place. I don't know her but I would guess that she doesn't have the level of training in debate that others on this forum have.  Unlike some other posters, clearly not you, I don't think that bars her from raising the issue. Some of this debate has been quite worthwhile 

Click to expand...

The arguement would be pointless centred around whether the OP can or can't raise this as an issue for debate. The information is out there and the subject has been raised.

But what is actually being debated in this thread? risk, welfare, individuals choice to enter a horse into a race, horses used for entertainment purposes? perceived greed in racing? 'non-horses' people owning race horses? Over breading of TB's?.....

Does the OP want to see Racing in its current form banned?, or changed from its current form and in what way? or high risk races banned or changed? or to take away an individuals choice to race their horses? or stop <3's from racing....? or something else?

.....and then there is the 1million pound question, if yes to any of the above, on what basis? and based on what factual evidence?

or it could just be that there is no debate at all to be had with the OP, and all they want to do is make people aware that horses have been PTS as a result of injurying themselves during a race.....and there is nothing at all to debate?


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## danielledanielle (10 May 2012)

Oh I hate it when people say 'it died doing what it loved'

I'm sure its last thoughts on the ground with a severed leg were 'Oh well, at least im not in a slaughter house'

Literally the most ridiculous argument ever LOL


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## FinalFurlong (10 May 2012)

TeamChaser said:



			Precisely!!!


Over2You - in the interests of fairness are you going to list all of the horses killed so far this year in other disciplines, whilst being used for leisure purposes, at leisure, through neglect, through stupidity, through accidents etc, etc 


If you have a horse, you have domesticated/trained it for your own purpose (I don't care how much you believe in your NH methods) - maybe we're all selfish then??

The important thing is how we care for them whilst they are with us 

Really getting boring now ......
		
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this and what shazbet said. this sums it up in my book


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## TeamChaser (10 May 2012)

danielledanielle said:



			Oh I hate it when people say 'it died doing what it loved'

I'm sure its last thoughts on the ground with a severed leg were 'Oh well, at least im not in a slaughter house'

Literally the most ridiculous argument ever LOL
		
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Ah but assuming a horse capable of human thought could be seen as equally ridiculous by some 

Not attempting to start another debate but I would be sceptical that horses are capable of human type thought processes

I team chase and, whilst not the same as racing obviousluy, similar concept - group of horses chasing each other around a course of fences! I know mine enjoys that - I can tell ..... and not something anyone on here can disprove as you don't know my horse   Is that level of risk unacceptable to some? Is team chasing next on your hit list??

Some might say horses don't enjoy racing, but how would you know they don't? And how do we know that they actually "enjoy" anything we ask of them?? Unless of course someone on here has developed the ability to read the equine mind? If anyone has by the way - I'm sure there would be a long queue for your services  Perhaps all domesticated horses are living a life of abject bloody misery (I do hope not!) 

The point is - where does it end? As others have asked, is this about getting racing banned? If so, it can't/won't end there.


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## Alec Swan (10 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Alec the people who make the decisions that Over2you, .......is upset about - to risk their horses *over and above what she considers an acceptable risk -* are the owners and trainers who enter the horses for the races.  

.......
		
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My main argument with O2Y's case has been as I've highlighted in the quote.  What *she* considers to be an acceptable risk.  I'm really sorry,  but it's my horse,  my life,  and I'll do with both as I wish!  I will race cars,  or horses,  or jump out of aircraft with a parachute,  and assess my owns dangers in the process.

If I wish to buy a NH horse,  and race it,  and risk death or injury,  then that is what I shall do,  and I wont have my life governed by those who would advise me.  They will advise that what I'm doing is wrong,  though they probably keep horses wrapped in cotton wool,  and STILL have fatal accidents.

Life is a course of risks,  and I'd much prefer that others left me to run my own.

Alec.


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## Dab (10 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			My main argument with O2Y's case has been as I've highlighted in the quote.  What *she* considers to be an acceptable risk.  I'm really sorry,  but it's my horse,  my life,  and I'll do with both as I wish!  I will race cars,  or horses,  or jump out of aircraft with a parachute,  and assess my owns dangers in the process.

If I wish to buy a NH horse,  and race it,  and risk death or injury,  then that is what I shall do,  and I wont have my life governed by those who would advise me.  They will advise that what I'm doing is wrong,  though they probably keep horses wrapped in cotton wool,  and STILL have fatal accidents.

Life is a course of risks,  and I'd much prefer that others left me to run my own.

Alec.
		
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****like**** 

Edited to say...

Opps sorry i meant to say i don't like this post....i love it


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Life is a course of risks,  and I'd much prefer that others left me to run my own.

Alec.
		
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The problem that I have with that Alec, is that the risks are not yours. They are the horse's.


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## Echo Bravo (10 May 2012)

And Alec has put it plainly what most of us have said in past replies and a good sensible answer it was too.But some people cann't see what the rest of us do.


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## Alec Swan (10 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			The problem that I have with that Alec, is that the risks are not yours. They are the horse's.
		
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The horse is my property.  I have the right to make those decisions which affect both of us,  just as you and O2Y do.  Do you own a horse,  and do you ride?  Do I lecture you about the risks that you run?  Do I interfere in your life?  NO,  so please be good enough to resist the temptation to interfere in mine. 

Alec.


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## Shazbat (10 May 2012)

As I was the one who initially responded to O2Ys post I do think it is time it was put to bed. I really dont think that anybody is going to change her narrow-minded point of view and that we are all wasting our time and energy in trying!


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## Alec Swan (10 May 2012)

Shazbat,

you're right.  Good night.

Alec.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			The horse is my property.  I have the right to make those decisions which affect both of us,
		
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This statement is key Alex. I do not see horses as property. What money I pay for them seems to me to be a kind of "rent" that I hand over for the right to have responsibility over their lives and involvement in it.

As long as some people see their horses as property and others view them as something else entirely, these arguments will continue to happen.

If a stranger shot a horse in cold blood, but humanely, this is, in law "criminal damage", no more. Most people would be outraged for that crime to be considered a low level public order offence. But that is what is meant when horses are described as "property", which they are in law.

I am  a long, long distance from you emotionally on this one and so, I think,  are most horse owners and this seem to me to be right at the core of the lack of understanding between the two sides  of the NH racing argument.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

Merry Crisis said:



			Good god, I used to think you were of a sound mind, having read all your ridiculous posts, my rather sound mind has changed in my opinion of you.
		
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If that is so, then your opinion of me is of no interest to me, especially as I do not even know who you are and. as far as I am aware,  you have never met me in person.

If you wish to consider your horse as "property" so be it. It will never be in my nature to do so. I fail to understand how a live creature, who could, if it chose, walk away at any time, can ever be considered, except in pure law, "property".

I'm reasonably sure that most of the horse owners in this country will be with me on this one, and not with you.


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## Pale Rider (10 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			The horse is my property.  I have the right to make those decisions which affect both of us,  just as you and O2Y do.  Do you own a horse,  and do you ride?  Do I lecture you about the risks that you run?  Do I interfere in your life?  NO,  so please be good enough to resist the temptation to interfere in mine. 

Alec.
		
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'The horse is my property', I have to say, the way that read really jarred on me.

True it is, people do 'own' animals. 

Isn't there a little something extra between people and their animals though.

 Are you racing because you enjoy racing, or racing only to win because you enjoy winning.

Is the desire to win that great that you would kill him trying?

I like racing, but If you are going to race, shouldn't you minimise the risks for your horse, and isn't that what all the rules and policing should be about.


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## Alec Swan (11 May 2012)

cptrayes & Pale Rider,

I'm genuinely lost for words!! 

I'm struggling to find a way of telling you that you're both completely bonkers,  without it sounding offensive,  because that isn't my intent,  but I do honestly wonder if you live in a real world.  Perhaps your world is real,  perhaps it's just different. 

This conversation really has degenerated into the realms of farce.  By all means have the last word,  you've earned that right!  

Alec.


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## Miss L Toe (11 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I do not see horses as property. What money I pay for them seems to me to be a kind of "rent" that I hand over for the right to have responsibility over their lives and involvement in it.

As long as some people see their horses as property and others view them as something else entirely, these arguments will continue to happen.
		
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I had a look to see what was going on on this post, to find that it had brought out some extreme viewpoints, I agree with cptrayes, and I think that most animal lovers would take the same view. It is a privilege to  "own" an animal, they give us so much pleasure, it is our responsibility to give them a good home in return.


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## eahotson (11 May 2012)

I despair of any horse sports really.They are all corrupt and abusive and the higher up you get the more this is.I watched enough ponies AND children being beaten up behind the scenes at affiliated showjumping shows in front of blind stewards and it still makes me angry.One man nearly knocked his 13 year old daughter off her feet he hit her so hard across the face.I was told that it was OK because he had spent a lot of money on her ponies.Says it all really doesn't it?


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## Amymay (11 May 2012)

One man nearly knocked his 13 year old daughter off her feet he hit her so hard across the face.I was told that it was OK because he had spent a lot of money on her ponies.Says it all really doesn't it?
		
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Did you call the police?


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## eahotson (11 May 2012)

That sort of thing went on so commonly I would never have been off the phone!! No one would have seen it even though he did it in front of the ring in full view of everyone and there was no youtube in those days.Also I would have been in some danger believe you me!


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## eahotson (11 May 2012)

The girl was one of the top junior showjumpers of her time, name all over the horse mags. various.


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## Amymay (11 May 2012)

eahotson said:



			That sort of thing went on so commonly I would never have been off the phone!! No one would have seen it even though he did it in front of the ring in full view of everyone and there was no youtube in those days.Also I would have been in some danger believe you me!
		
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So you witnessed a viscous assault on a 13 year old child, and did nothing about it?

Shocking.


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## Dab (11 May 2012)

Whether you view horses as property or not is a mute point, it is just a word. Somebody can describe themselves as an owner, custodian, keeper, renter, carer of their horse...take your pick....but it is all about the choices that we make for them.
Somebody who describes themselves as a renter of a horse can just as easily make poor choices in the care of their horse as somebody who describes themselves as an owner of said property!


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## amandap (11 May 2012)

Dab said:



			Whether you view horses as property or not is a mute point, it is just a word. Somebody can describe themselves as an owner, custodian, keeper, renter, carer of their horse...take your pick....but it is all about the choices that we make for them.
Somebody who describes themselves as a renter of a horse can just as easily make poor choices in the care of their horse as somebody who describes themselves as an owner of said property!
		
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True, however to say another living creature as your property brings with it certain 'rights' to do as we wish as some have expressed. This is a double edged sword because in that case we have no reason to interfere in cases of overt abuse or neglect.
There is the implication that once something is your property you can do as you wish with it and it is no business of anyone else. This is either the case or it isn't. Some it seems wish to pick and choose when it suits them. 
My way out of this is not to view my horses as my 'property' even though I legally own them. My house however is my property.


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## applecart14 (11 May 2012)

luckyoldme said:



			I have just read Pale Riders post and it touched on the age of these horses when they first race. 
There have been threads on here where many members were outraged when people were shown to be backing or working horses too young. I thought that it was generally accepted that  a horse may be backed and then turned away to mature at three years old.. maybe moving on to light work at four. 
How then can a tb race at two?
Ive never seen a thread address this issue and would be interested to know if those within the raceworld approve of this .. and no im not spoiling for a fight . I just don t get why the backing of any other horse at two would be a sin.
		
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From what I understand (and I might be wrong) I think that racehorses that are raced at two are given a huge amount of protein in their diets to help produce top line and to enable them to be raced.  And the jockeys are very light so this is why they are able to be raced.  But as we all know their bones are not formed by this time, their joints are not too.

Here is some very interesting information from WEBER TRAINING STABLES.COM 

_The Schedule of Growth Plate Conversion to Bone.

The process of growth plates converting to bone goes from the bottom of the animal up. 

The growth plate at the top of the coffin bone, the most distal bone of the limb, is fused at birth. This means it gets no taller after birth but does get larger around, through another mechanism. After that the growth plates fuse as follows:
 Short pastern - top and bottom between birth and 6 months.
 Long pastern - top and bottom between 6 months and one year.
 Cannon bone - top and bottom between 8 months and 1.5 years
 Small bones of the knee - top and bottom of each, between 1.5 and 2.5 years
 Bottom of radius-ulna - between 2 and 2.5 years
 Weight-bearing portion of glenoid notch at top of radius - between 2.5 and 3 years
 Humerus - top and bottom, between 3 and 3.5 years
 Scapula - glenoid or bottom (weight-bearing) portion  between 3.5 and 4 years
 Hindlimb - lower portions same as forelimb
 Hock - this joint is "late" for as low down as it is; growth plates on the tibial and fibular tarsals don't fuse until the animal is four (so the hocks are a known "weak point" - even the 18th-century literature warns against driving young horses in plow or other deep or sticky footing, or jumping them up into a heavy load, for danger of spraining their hocks).
 Tibia - top and bottom, between 3 and 3.5 years
 Femur - bottom, between 3 and 3.5 years; neck, between 2.5 and 3 years; major and 3rd trochanters, between 2.5 and 3 years
 Pelvis - growth plates on the points of hip, peak of croup (tubera sacrale), and points of buttock (tuber ischii), between 3 and 4 years.
The vertebral column is last. A normal horse has 32 vertebrae between the back of the skull and the root of the dock, and there are several growth plates on each one, the most important of which is the one capping the centrum. These do not fuse until the horse is at least 5 ½ years old. The taller the horse and the longer its neck, the later the last fusions will occur. Fusions in male horses generally take up to an additional 6 months.
Significance of the Closure Schedule for Injuries to Back and Neck vs. Limbs.
The lateness of vertebral "closure" is most significant for two reasons. One: in no limb are there 32 growth plates! Two: the growth plates in the limbs are (more or less) oriented perpendicular to the stress of the load passing through them, while those of the vertebral chain are oriented parallel to weight placed upon the horse's back. Bottom line: you can sprain a horse's back a lot more easily than you can displace those located in the limbs. _


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## applecart14 (11 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			This statement is key Alex. I do not see horses as property. 

I am  a long, long distance from you emotionally on this one and so, I think,  are most horse owners and this seem to me to be right at the core of the lack of understanding between the two sides  of the NH racing argument.
		
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I don't see horses as property either.  As the poem "I'll lend to you a little while a horse of mine God said" they are on 'loan' to us, we are very priviledged to have them in our lives and we should treat them as well as we can whilst we are luck enough to have them.

Alex, without being rude to him is probably a very nice person, I can only surmise this as I have never met him.  But he does seem to be a very typical 'country person' insomuch as he is certainly not over sentimental in his outlook towards animals.  I know this from the post I put about the magpie in the larson trap.  He would never have considered this to be a sad way to treat a bird, yet many people on the forum did and voiced their opinions in support of my post.  The same way he is very supportive of racing and see's horses as 'taking their chances' whereas some of us think that it is sad that they have to risk their lives in order to give us enjoyment.

It is very difficult trying to show someone who is not of your way of thinking a different way, as it would be for Alex to make me realise his way of thinking is right.  I guess its good to have a healthy discussion so long as things don't get too personal, and it is (as I know from the larson post) very difficult not to get personal over things.


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## Dab (11 May 2012)

amandap said:



			True, however to say another living creature as your property brings with it certain 'rights' to do as we wish as some have expressed. This is a double edged sword because in that case we have no reason to interfere in cases of overt abuse or neglect.
There is the implication that once something is your property you can do as you wish with it and it is no business of anyone else. This is either the case or it isn't. Some it seems wish to pick and choose when it suits them. 
My way out of this is not to view my horses as my 'property' even though I legally own them. My house however is my property.
		
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Semantics surely?

Whether a horse is deemed as property, there is no implication that it will be less well cared for or the right to step in if they are not are taken away. Abuse and neglect are dealt with in the same way and if the 5 basic welfare needs are not met they will be dealt with acordingly.


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## amandap (11 May 2012)

Dab said:



			Semantics surely?
		
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I don't agree. 
It's an underlying attitude (mind set) towards horses. Humans who are/were the property of other humans are called slaves. Everything done to slaves was justified because they were the 'property' of the owner to do with as they wish. 
My horses are not my slaves/property... just trying to get my point clearer.
Perhaps you are the property of your parents or employer? If the word property is no longer acceptable between human relationships why is it still acceptable between humans and other animals/living creatures? Do you put animals beneath us humans as so many others do including outdated laws? Perhaps this is where the difference is?
The word 'property' in this context carries a meaning of a right to do anything we wish in any way we see fit imo, I don't believe we have that as a right over another animal.


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## Dab (11 May 2012)

amandap said:



			I don't agree. 
It's an underlying attitude (mind set) towards horses. Humans who are/were the property of other humans are called slaves. Everything done to slaves was justified because they were the 'property' of the owner to do with as they wish. 
My horses are not my slaves/property... just trying to get my point clearer.
Perhaps you are the property of your parents or employer? If the word property is no longer acceptable between human relationships why is it still acceptable between humans and other animals/living creatures? Do you put animals beneath us humans as so many others do including outdated laws? Perhaps this is where the difference is?
The word 'property' in this context carries a meaning of a right to do anything we wish in any way we see fit imo, I don't believe we have that as a right over another animal.
		
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It is just a word (and you can choose for it to carry that context if you wish) but isn't it rather the actions of people that count and the choices that they make? Labeling in any context does not appear to be helpful in moving any arguement forward.


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## eahotson (11 May 2012)

amymay said:



			So you witnessed a viscous assault on a 13 year old child, and did nothing about it?

Shocking.
		
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 .OK the assault occured in frront of the ENTIRE showground RIGHT outside the ring.It was a large BSJA show.The child made a mistake in the ring, froze and glanced at her father.She finished her round came out the ring dismounted from her pony and her father struck her across the face.No youtube, no mobile phones, no witnesses ha ha because y what was good for them, this was a very wealthy man. I could also have been in personal danger.The child wouldn't have testified.What whould you have done??? If you are implying that it didn't happen because I didn't report it saddly you are wrong.At another show in front of the stewards I saw one mother holding a pony while her child repetedly kicked it in the stomache.AT ANOTHER SOMEONE WAS RIDING A HORSE ROUND REPEATEDLY WHIPPING IT.wHEN i VOICED CONCERN  I was told to shut up.In that bastion of wooly minded reporting the Horse and Hound one judge (about 2 years ago) there was a child very overhorsed in the show ring and clearly terrified.She heard the mother say Get a smile on your face or I will smack one on for you!!! Just because this doesn;t fit your world vision doesn't mean it doesn't happen.If you wish I will email you the name of the then child concerned along with the name of a large show jumping team a friend of mine worked for.They taught their horses never to stop by setting up a couple of jumps at a distance the horse couldnt make.When it stopped they pasted it until it wet itself.I can show you how to sweeten ponies that are stopping because they don't trust their riders but I don't think you would want to know.


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## Amymay (11 May 2012)

f you are implying that it didn't happen because I didn't report it saddly you are wrong
		
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I'm not implying that at all.

And there was a witness - you.


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## eahotson (11 May 2012)

amymay said:



			I'm not implying that at all.

And there was a witness - you.
		
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There were many witnesses including the ring stewards! They were scared never mind me.


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## eahotson (11 May 2012)

There was a clulture of violence.Parents didn't care so long as their child was in the ribbons.Another witness? Her mother.


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## Miss L Toe (11 May 2012)

amymay said:



			So you witnessed a viscous assault on a 13 year old child, and did nothing about it?

Shocking.
		
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It is shocking, but then the "Dad" might consider the  "child" is his property!!!
This sort of thing has been going on for years, and those of us who are not in to violence and assault by parents are shocked.


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## Amymay (11 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			It is shocking, but then the "Dad" might consider the  "child" is his property!!!
		
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He might indeed.  In the eyes of law though, the child is not.


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## viking Flagship (13 May 2012)

Just rewinding back prior to these last few post about the struck child......

debating the concept of ownership, guardianship etc......
Pulp Fiction moment!
For me the debate has gone full circle back to what I percieve to be the crux of the OP's issues - that of Animal Rights! 
and I'm sorry to say that despite the fact I love and respect animals, the Animal Rights brigade bring about a fingers in ears lalalalalalalalala response from me.


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## Marciamac (14 May 2012)

I've just found this thread - to great amusement. A couiple of points:

1. I agree with those who say that every time we ride/drive a horse - or turn it out in a field - we accept responsibility for that action. If the horse is hurt, accident or not, we could say it's our fault because we tamed the horse and use it for our own purpose. Horses in the wild aren't ridden, driven, petted or pampered. If they are hurt or captured by a predator and eaten, that is nature.

2. I believe it is far more cruel for a horse to spend most of its days in a relatively small field, knee-deep in mud in winter or covered with flies in summer, or alternatively stabled 23 hours a day, than it is for a horse to risk injury or death through racing or any other equestrian sport, including hacking. Old or infirm horses whose owners will not put them down suffer even more: it is far better to put them to sleep before all quality of life goes.

3. If we didn't ride/drive/compete/race horses, there wouldn't be any. How many wild horses are left? Who would be prepared to provide expensive land and feed and care for horses just to look at them in a field - or a zoo?

4. I wonder if OTY and others on this thread who say they have ex-racehorses ever considered that without racing, they wouldn't have their horse.


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## Elbie (14 May 2012)

Marciamac said:



			I've just found this thread - to great amusement.
		
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I'm amused that it starts adressing race horse deaths and ends debatting a child that got smacked round the face. How did that happen!

OTY states horse racing is purely to satisfy the greedy and selfish (or something like that, it was a billion pages ago now). Don't tar everyone with that brush! As in every sport you are likely to get some people that are greedy or selfish but a large number care about the sport.

My dad has a share in a racehorse. He has given a lot of money for a 2 year old that will hardly race much this year (maiden race coming up) and knows he is not likely to see much, if any financial gain but he enjoys the sport and loves his little baby horse!


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## AMH (14 May 2012)

*puts hand up* Can I ask a question?

Sorry if it's already been asked, but I skipped the past few pages 'cos I was nodding off.

Before the hunting ban was brought in, I asked a nice RSPCA lady in Exeter High Street, who wanted me to sign her clever petition, what was going to happen to all the redundant hounds once the ban was enacted. She told me (and I think, though I can't be sure, that she might have told me a little porky) with a triumphant smile on her face:

'We've found homes for them'.

I pointed out that, since Battersea and other homes like it were bursting at the seams with doggies looking for new families, I found it intriguing that they'd managed to home entire packs of hounds. She changed the subject.

So, my question here, because I wouldn't want to be accused of deflecting the argument and the OP seems to be suggesting we ban racing, because it's the only way to stop racehorses dying whilst taking part in racing (or training for racing), is:

What happens to all the racehorses once racing is banned? 

Thank you 

PS I apologise in advance for any grammatical errors which may have occurred in the writing of this post.


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## cptrayes (14 May 2012)

Elbie said:



			My dad has a share in a racehorse. He has given a lot of money for a 2 year old that will hardly race much this year (maiden race coming up) and knows he is not likely to see much, if any financial gain but he enjoys the sport and loves his little baby horse!
		
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Can I ask you if your Dad knows the rules which have been written somewhere in his contract for what is to happen to the horse if it fails to race fast enough to warrant keeping it, or if it becomes injured?  I would be very interested to know whether the welfare of the horse at the end of its racing life is something that his partnership or syndicate have paid any attention to.


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## Marciamac (14 May 2012)

As someone said much earlier on, there are good and bad people in every aspect of life, including every aspect of equestrian life. I've been to a number of trainer's yards (as part of a very large racing club) and they all emphasise the efforts they go to to find good homes for horses after racing. One said that although Heroes and similar organisations do a lot of good work in re-training and re-homing ex-race horses, he feels people don't know about the individual trainers - himself included - who have their own re-training and re-homing programmes. And I also know that horses who don't seem to be enjoying their racing (which isn't necessarily a case of not winning/placing) are retired from the track and found something else to do. 

Do you think every horse has a good owner? Every horse, when its owner can no longer keep it or doesn't want to keep it, for whatever reason, is passed to a good home rather than just sold to the highest bidder or the first person who offers the asking price?


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## cptrayes (14 May 2012)

Marciamac said:



			Do you think every horse has a good owner? Every horse, when its owner can no longer keep it or doesn't want to keep it, for whatever reason, is passed to a good home rather than just sold to the highest bidder or the first person who offers the asking price?
		
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I assume this is directed at me because of my question to Elbie?

No of course I don't think every horse has a good owner. I am not stupid. But it is my impression that the proportion of private owners who care where their horses go to when they leave is is far, far in excess of racehorse owners. 

Not_ every_ racehorse owner doesn't care, no, but _overwhelmingly_ more than private owners, or even dealers - whose reputation depends on matching horse and buyer.

No-one could doubt this if they pop along to the next multi-day mixed Doncaster sale and see how many will go through on or close to minimum bid 500gns to who knows/cares where.  It is no co-incidence that one of the biggest passport scam busts was done on a dealer close to there and in the past I have bought one of their "3/4 ID" horses via an interim owner who could not manage her. 

There is only a tiny proportion of private owners in this country who will sell their horses for only just above meat money at an auction. Yes, of course they exist, but not in the numbers that they do in racing. 

I am interested to know what the terms of that partnership are. I am interested to know whether Elbie's father, who "loves his little horse" will love it enough when it fails to be fast enough to care where it goes then. 

I am sorry that you are uncomfortable about that.


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## DragonSlayer (14 May 2012)

eahotson said:



			.OK the assault occured in frront of the ENTIRE showground RIGHT outside the ring.It was a large BSJA show.The child made a mistake in the ring, froze and glanced at her father.She finished her round came out the ring dismounted from her pony and her father struck her across the face.No youtube, no mobile phones, no witnesses ha ha because y what was good for them, this was a very wealthy man. I could also have been in personal danger.The child wouldn't have testified.What whould you have done??? If you are implying that it didn't happen because I didn't report it saddly you are wrong.At another show in front of the stewards I saw one mother holding a pony while her child repetedly kicked it in the stomache.AT ANOTHER SOMEONE WAS RIDING A HORSE ROUND REPEATEDLY WHIPPING IT.wHEN i VOICED CONCERN  I was told to shut up.In that bastion of wooly minded reporting the Horse and Hound one judge (about 2 years ago) there was a child very overhorsed in the show ring and clearly terrified.She heard the mother say Get a smile on your face or I will smack one on for you!!! Just because this doesn;t fit your world vision doesn't mean it doesn't happen.If you wish I will email you the name of the then child concerned along with the name of a large show jumping team a friend of mine worked for.They taught their horses never to stop by setting up a couple of jumps at a distance the horse couldnt make.When it stopped they pasted it until it wet itself.I can show you how to sweeten ponies that are stopping because they don't trust their riders but I don't think you would want to know.
		
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...so you are saying that an assault took place on a minor and no-one did a thing?


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## DragonSlayer (14 May 2012)

amymay said:



			I'm not implying that at all.

And there was a witness - you.
		
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Damn right!

This is either complete bollox or everyone on that showground was a complete numpty, because I'll tell you this now, I'd be right in there intervening! If he got in my face, he'd have got a kick in the balls....

Outrageous.....


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## meandmyself (14 May 2012)

Over2You said:



			The former is in the name of "sport" and entirely preventable. The latter are accidents!! That is the difference!!
		
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Yes. Dreadful. Let's ban it right now and string up everyone involved. 

It's not that simple though, is it? Racing is one of the largest industries in England- what are your plans for the millions of people that would lose their jobs? What would you do with the horses that no longer had a job? 

Oh, that's right. If there was no racing, the vast majority of them would end up dead.


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## meandmyself (14 May 2012)

vroutledge said:



http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/ this website upsets me so much i wish there was something other than the death penalty for these poor horses, all this modern technology and yet we still haven't figured out a good way to prevent horses having to be PTS from a broken leg etc..........
		
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That site is run by Animal Aid- an animal rights group. They're hardly an impartial source.


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## Echo Bravo (14 May 2012)

To be honest as soon as you say Animal Aid,most of us switch off as like PETA and some others they are the extreme of hostile animal so called aid and a lot of their followers are as you see on this post blinkered in their thinking as you would think owners and trainers are sending their horses out to break a leg, jumping etc:-


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## Elbie (15 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Can I ask you if your Dad knows the rules which have been written somewhere in his contract for what is to happen to the horse if it fails to race fast enough to warrant keeping it, or if it becomes injured?  I would be very interested to know whether the welfare of the horse at the end of its racing life is something that his partnership or syndicate have paid any attention to.
		
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Well my dad has paid for a share of the horse, therefore as a syndicate owner he should be consulted should anything happen. I doubt the contract specifically states "if the horse isn't fast enough we will x, y and z". Training is discussed on a regular basis and the trainer advises plans or makes suggestions for future training. If she gets injured and can't race for a year it's tough luck on my dad, he won't get his money back. They will treat the horse if necessary (i.e. it hasn't broken it's leg) but as a syndicate you still have to pay for the horse. That's the way it is. 

TBH, as far as I'm aware the trainer has kept the horses once their race career has ended or the owner has taken her back.


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## AMH (15 May 2012)

When my TB mare came out of racing, the members of the partnership were consulted to see whether anyone wanted to take her on or whether a consensus could be reached about what to do with her. None of the partners wanted to take her on as their own (although at least two would have if there were no other options), and so my parents (who were partners) asked me if I knew anyone who would take her.

I took her as a potential sporthorse/hunter broodmare. She's since had 3 foals, the eldest of which is just backed and the youngest of which is a full TB destined for the track - my OH and I are looking to form a syndicate of friends and relatives to race her. Whatever happens with her, whether she's amazing or awful or anything in between, she will have a home for life (as far as anyone is able to say that) with us once she's retired. 

Many racehorse owners are not hands on, but by the same token many are. It's a massive generalisation to say that 'owners don't care' - some do and some don't, as could be said of all equestrian disciplines, be it showing, eventing, anything. 

What is true, as with show horses, eventers, etc, is that by and large, the people who handle the horses on a day-to-day basis, the grooms and lads and lasses, DO love the horses very much. Regardless of the actual owner's response, those who have custody of racehorses are generally deeply affected if the worst happens, and mourn the loss as they would a horse of their own. 

Please note that I've not said 'all' or 'every' here - we know there is good and bad in every profession. I think it's counterproductive to generalise about either position in order to support an argument.


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## Horse Riding Fan (17 May 2012)

Why are they publishing this? To me the horses that are killed due no neglect and torture is much worse off


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## Marciamac (17 May 2012)

I don't see how anyone can say private owners are generally more caring and more concerned about the future of their horses than racehorse owners/trainers. I've seen SOOOOO many private owners who neglect their horses (and that includes leaving them in a field all day, five, six, seven days a week, without doing anything with them), who sell them on to whoever pays the most money (often to unsuitable homes), who take them to the sales, who don't call the vet when they should because they don't want to spend the money, etc etc etc. And dealers aren't necessarily any better. How many actually say 'no, I won't sell you that horse because you're not good enough'? 

My little contact with the racing world - through being a member of a large syndicate and through knowing a couple of people who have studs or other contacts with racehorses - has been quite positive. Horses who don't seem to like racing are taken out (who wants to spend a fortune if they don't think there's a chance of a win or place?) and found another home and another job. Those who have to retire are also found another home and another job. (And not necessarily through the sale ring!!) Besides which, horses that do go through the sale ring often end up in great homes. I went on a riding holiday once on the Scottish borders; they bought a lot of their horses through Doncaster sales. They loved their horses, only accepted reasonably experienced riders and grilled everyone who contacted them to book about their ability and experience to make sure they had people who could cope with the horses and the riding. 

As I and others have said before, there are good and bad people everywhere, including in the horse world, and you cannot draw a line down the middle and say private owners are on the good side and racehorse owners are on the bad side.


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## Marciamac (18 May 2012)

In yesterday's H&H, which I have only just read, two ads grabbed my attention. One was for an Arab which the owner has had since a two-year-old and backed herself, but which now has arthritis in his hocks. The advertiser doesn't say if it's for sale, loan or a giveaway, but it is not a novice ride and has to go to an experienced, professional home only. What experienced, professional home wants an arthritic cast-off? 

The other was worse. A 17-year-old Irish mare with arthritis who can walk and trot but nothing else, is being given away free to a good home. Again, what sort of person would take that on? Only someone with no experience/knowledge, or someone who wants to make a quick buck and sell it on, or someone who wants to breed from it - even though an arthritic horse doesn't make the best broodmare, especially one at 17.

To me, this is more cruel than anything that happens in racing. If the horse is permanently unsound, do the right thing by it and have it put down at home. Don't pass the problem on to someone else and risk the horse suffering.


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## Amymay (18 May 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gxVlxT_x-f0

A broken leg, and a lethal injection.

I bet the horses in this video would beg you to be put so quickly out of their misery.

If only they could talk.


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## Ktrice1994 (18 May 2012)

the above video is shocking! some people shouldn't be allowed to live in this world they should be tortured slowly and die in pain!!!! it makes me so angry!  racehorses in comparison to the horses in the video are not subjected to intentional cruelty at least they are put down quickly without pain and suffering and distress its all over quickly. id prefer my horse to be put down on a racetrack then ever suffer that on the video it is beyond disgusting  if racing was banned many more horses would be transported for slaughter and anyways the saying "you can make a horse go to water but you cannot make him drink". for example King Johns castle in the 2010 grand national refused to start no matter what. you cannot make a horse do anything at all. i feel like crying after that video some people are disgusting


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## cptrayes (19 May 2012)

Marciamac said:



			In yesterday's H&H, which I have only just read, two ads grabbed my attention. One was for an Arab which the owner has had since a two-year-old and backed herself, but which now has arthritis in his hocks. The advertiser doesn't say if it's for sale, loan or a giveaway, but it is not a novice ride and has to go to an experienced, professional home only. What experienced, professional home wants an arthritic cast-off? 

The other was worse. A 17-year-old Irish mare with arthritis who can walk and trot but nothing else, is being given away free to a good home. Again, what sort of person would take that on? Only someone with no experience/knowledge, or someone who wants to make a quick buck and sell it on, or someone who wants to breed from it - even though an arthritic horse doesn't make the best broodmare, especially one at 17.

To me, this is more cruel than anything that happens in racing. If the horse is permanently unsound, do the right thing by it and have it put down at home. Don't pass the problem on to someone else and risk the horse suffering.
		
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You write as if passing on problem horses was exclusive to private ownership. It is not. At least those people advertising those horses were honest, if terribly misguided.

The horse with the permanent sacroiliac instability which my friends brought from Ascot was dumped into the sales. They had it shot, but a bad dealer would have sold it on or put it back through the auctions again. The  horse that failed a vetting on a refused blood test was dumped into the sales too, and it came back again the next time as well. This happens on top of the racing deaths, not instead of them.


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## Alec Swan (19 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			You write as if passing on problem horses was exclusive to private ownership. It is not. *Really?  Do you know of horses which are in public ownership? *At least those people advertising those horses were honest, if terribly misguided.  *The reality is that the advertirsers were unloading knackered and broken down horses on to the gullible and ill advised.  HONEST?  There are times cpt when you do make me laugh!!*

.......
		
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Alec.


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## A1JUMPJOCKEY (22 May 2012)

One of those horses in that list was one of mine, Simonsberg had a great life we bought him as a foal so had him for a while, he unfortunately took of to soon paddled through the fence and broke his neck, he has aways been a sound jumper, he had been jumping steeplchase fences since he was 3 with us. Just one of those things, he was educated and treated with the best care from day one.


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## cptrayes (22 May 2012)

A1JUMPJOCKEY said:



			One of those horses in that list was one of mine, Simonsberg had a great life we bought him as a foal so had him for a while, he unfortunately took of to soon paddled through the fence and broke his neck, he has aways been a sound jumper, he had been jumping steeplchase fences since he was 3 with us. Just one of those things, he was educated and treated with the best care from day one.
		
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A1jump jockey I am sorry but I think you are very unwise to have opened this thread again, especially with this comment.

My own reaction is what the devil a 3 year old was doing being put over steeplechase fences in the first place


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## Alec Swan (22 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			.......

My own reaction is what the devil a 3 year old was doing being put over steeplechase fences in the first place 

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cpt,  I knew that we'd reach agreement one day! 

The reality is that I very much doubt that it was.

Alec.


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## geegee84 (23 May 2012)

As this is quite fitting with the God thread i just posted on.

I have no time for horse racing and those who partake in any aspect of it. 

It is just another form of abuse and should not be justified by any means, and when you start justifying certain abuse others will also try to justify theirs and you cant really point the finger at an animal abuser when your doing it yourself.  

I also expect that the 50 horses didnt include those sent off for slaughter due to not being fast enough???? 

Those horses were raced to death by humans they would still be alive if it wasnt for humans how on earth is that ok??????? 

Selfish, greedy humans at it AGAIN


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## Amymay (23 May 2012)

geegee84 said:



			Those horses were raced to death by humans they would still be alive if it wasn't for humans how on earth is that ok???????
		
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Actually, they wouldn't.


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## geegee84 (23 May 2012)

why wouldnt they? 

they are not alive now are they. 

if your refering to the fact that TB are also a man made breed then your right but maybe their non existance would be better if it was going to lead to accepted abuse. 

I am a fan of TBS i find they have a wonderful nature and are fantastic horses but dont deserve this kind of abuse.


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## Elf On A Shelf (23 May 2012)

geegee84 said:



			As this is quite fitting with the God thread i just posted on.

I have no time for horse racing and those who partake in any aspect of it. 

It is just another form of abuse and should not be justified by any means, and when you start justifying certain abuse others will also try to justify theirs and you cant really point the finger at an animal abuser when your doing it yourself.  

I also expect that the 50 horses didnt include those sent off for slaughter due to not being fast enough???? 

Those horses were raced to death by humans they would still be alive if it wasnt for humans how on earth is that ok??????? 

Selfish, greedy humans at it AGAIN
		
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It's kind of ironic that you hate racing so much and yet your user name is a well known nickname for race horses ...


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## geegee84 (23 May 2012)

its just slang for Horse not racehorse specifically.


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## Alec Swan (23 May 2012)

geegee84 said:



			As this is quite fitting with the God thread i just posted on.

.......
		
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Having read your thoughts on here and the "God thread",  I'm sorry to tell you that my understanding of God and Equines,  remains static,  in that I've learned nothing. 

Alec.


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## geegee84 (23 May 2012)

well you wont learn anything will you. i havent said anything new. 

who else can we blame for the state of the universe? you already knew the answer to that 

and horse racing is justified animal abuse you already knew that anyway. 

you were never meant to learn anything


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## Dab (23 May 2012)

geegee84 said:



			.....It is just another form of abuse and should not be justified by any means, ....
		
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what do you mean? what abuse are you talking about specifically so that it can be properly investigated and dealt with?




geegee84 said:



			.....I also expect that the 50 horses didnt include those sent off for slaughter due to not being fast enough???? 

...
		
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Do you have the information to hand so that it can be investigated to see if these horses that were not fast enough could have been rehomed instead of going to slaughter?


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## Elf On A Shelf (23 May 2012)

Of course those 50 didn't include any that may or may not have been sent off to slaughter! They are the magnificent, valient beasts that lost their lives doing the job they loved and were designed for! If you want to play that gane then add Brin onto your list! He was a racehorse and a sodding good one at that! Brin died on Saturday. Not in a race, not in training but OUT IN THE FIELD ON HIS HOLIDAYS! How is that abuse?!? He took a notion upon himself to jump out of his field into the path of a truck! Abuse? No! It's called being a horse!


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## Elf On A Shelf (23 May 2012)

Geegee it's people like you that really piss me off! You get on your high horse and claim you know everything there is to know about whatever subject is currently bugging you. You never bother trying to find out about said subject because that would spoil your illusion! Yes some racehorses go to slaughter but most are the ones that are useless, broken or dangerous, and yes some perfectly healthy horses BUT at least racing takes reaponsibilty for it's surplus horses and doesn't just dump them on rescue centres to deal with.


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## Allover (23 May 2012)

geegee84 said:



			As this is quite fitting with the God thread i just posted on.

I have no time for horse racing and those who partake in any aspect of it. 

It is just another form of abuse and should not be justified by any means, and when you start justifying certain abuse others will also try to justify theirs and you cant really point the finger at an animal abuser when your doing it yourself.  

I also expect that the 50 horses didnt include those sent off for slaughter due to not being fast enough???? 

Those horses were raced to death by humans they would still be alive if it wasnt for humans how on earth is that ok??????? 

Selfish, greedy humans at it AGAIN
		
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So what is the solution?


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## fburton (23 May 2012)

Cuffey said:



			I have always believed and continue to believe that ''in the field'' is the most dangerous place for horses without even counting grass sickness, laminitis etc
		
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In terms of deaths per horse-hour? Surely not!

If what you say is true, it would actually be safer for horses to do _any other_ horse activity than "living in the field". So taking a horse racing would _increase_ its life expectancy compared to leaving it in a field. Is that really the case?


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## fburton (23 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			If I wish to buy a NH horse,  and race it,  and risk death or injury,  then that is what I shall do,  and I wont have my life governed by those who would advise me.  They will advise that what I'm doing is wrong,  though they probably keep horses wrapped in cotton wool,  and STILL have fatal accidents.
		
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Hypothetical question: If I were to buy a horse and get it to perform some activity of my own invention, at home and for my own entertainment, which others would probably not approve of, and suppose this activity was risky enough that the chances of death or injury were comparable to NH, would you defend my right to do this as vehemently as you defend your own? It is my property after all.


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## geegee84 (23 May 2012)

EKW : I never claimed to know everything there is to know. Just this is my feelings on the subject, just because its different from yours doesn't mean i am claiming to know everything i could say the same about you. 


I have personally seen ex racers who have done well on the track earning their owner a fair amount arrive at the yard skin and bone and that was a successful one, imagine the fate of the "useless" ones. It is well known what the industry is like for over breeding. 


also did they tell you they enjoyed it??


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## amage (23 May 2012)

geegee84 said:



			also did they tell you they enjoyed it??
		
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Did they ever tell you they didn't??????

Sorry but the only talking horse I know of was a fictional character called Mr Ed...he also was not a racehorse so presumably cannot be used as a spokesperson for racehorses.


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## geegee84 (23 May 2012)

i never said if they enjoyed it or not  

EKW is the spokes person for racehorses


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## Mrs B (23 May 2012)

geegee84 said:



			i never said if they enjoyed it or not  

EKW is the spokes person for racehorses 

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As is anyone who understands horses and watches them do the job they were bred for. Equally, anyone who understands horses knows when they are NOT enjoying something.

I watched the yard collie today: she was racing up and down in the heat helping with the tractor and the sheep. She was tired, panting but in her element. Doing what she was born to do.

If I'd tried to keep her with me, in the shade with a cool drink of water, it wouldn't have pleased her. In as much as an animal was 'enjoying' itself, to use an anthropomorphic term, she was.


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## Marciamac (25 May 2012)

If you want to mention over-breeding, do you know anyone who has/had an old/lame/otherwise unsound mare, or one they simply didn't have time to deal with, who decided to put it in foal rather than sell it or put it down? Is that not over-breeding? And if the mare had conformation faults or a bad temperament, is that not more irresponsible than anything the racehorse breeders do?

And yes, if horses didn't race, there would be a lot fewer horses altogether. If they weren't competed, in any discipline, or simply ridden or driven - whether they are well looked after or not - there wouldn't be any. Very few people in this world would pay for land, let alone food, vet's bills, etc, for horses to be pets. Anyone who rides or drives or keeps horses has to accept that we have created an artificial animal. Horses in the wild have hundreds or thousands of acres to run over, not just five or 10 (or less). If they are old, injured or ill, they cannot keep up with the herd and become something's dinner. They do not live as long as the majority of domesticated horses, including racehorses.


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## amandap (25 May 2012)

EKW said:



			Of course those 50 didn't include any that may or may not have been sent off to slaughter! They are the magnificent, valient beasts that lost their lives doing the job they loved and were designed for!
		
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I have been trying to ignore this thread but this is so human and so typical and has sparked a rant I'm afraid. 

This is not specifically to you EKW btw but general.
Horses are all magnificant animals, they race out of fear, urging by humans  on their backs, because other horses around them are running and because they are hemmed in by the track and steered by the human. How on earth can you say they race because they love their job? Horses have no concept of a job, they do what they are trained to do and get used to a routine and level of exercize. Horses are not machines designed by humans, they were designed by nature and man has taken them, titivated them and used them for his own pleasure and gain. Humans then sit back and arrogantly declare they made them and that horses love what we make them do. Are horses knocking on the doors of racing establishments begging to race? Are ex race horses constantly escaping and running back to racing yards or courses? 
Horses do what we make them do, to say they do it through 'love' or because we designed them is just not true. We convince ourselves horses love it because we want to believe it. We love to see them move, run and in a state of arousal. To say that they are aroused/on their toes through love is just ridiculous. They are nervous, on alert and *we* decide that excitement is pleasure. Some may even enjoy it but how do we really know?
We convince ourselves horses somehow owe us something because we feed them, keep them in nice warm stables wearing lovely fluffy rugs, conveniently forgetting we never gave the horse a choice and that all he knows is to do what we say. 
Please wake up everyone. Horses are so generous and naturally cooperative they put up with so much from us day in day out, the least we can do is get real and admit and own that we make them do all this stuff for our own pleasure and gain they really have no choice in the matter.
If they don't cooperate or get sick or are not good enough they get the bullet or palmed off.

Does anyone remember the millions of years before you were born? Do you miss it? Of course not, we were not aware of it and we will (probably) not be aware of the future after our deaths. So what if horses are never born, they wont know! 
We need to look to the ones who are alive and see them for what they truly are not what we think they are and that we 'made' them...


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## geegee84 (25 May 2012)

Well said amandap! I agree with everything you said.


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## Mrs B (25 May 2012)

geegee84 said:



			Well said amandap! I agree with everything you said.
		
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And that's what makes the forum fun as I agree with virtually none of it. Although I do agree horses are magnificent animals.


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## Shazbat (25 May 2012)

amandap said:



			I have been trying to ignore this thread but this is so human and so typical and has sparked a rant I'm afraid. 

This is not specifically to you EKW btw but general.
Horses are all magnificant animals, they race out of fear, urging by humans  on their backs, because other horses around them are running and because they are hemmed in by the track and steered by the human. How on earth can you say they race because they love their job? Horses have no concept of a job, they do what they are trained to do and get used to a routine and level of exercize. Horses are not machines designed by humans, they were designed by nature and man has taken them, titivated them and used them for his own pleasure and gain. Humans then sit back and arrogantly declare they made them and that horses love what we make them do. Are horses knocking on the doors of racing establishments begging to race? Are ex race horses constantly escaping and running back to racing yards or courses? 
Horses do what we make them do, to say they do it through 'love' or because we designed them is just not true. We convince ourselves horses love it because we want to believe it. We love to see them move, run and in a state of arousal. To say that they are aroused/on their toes through love is just ridiculous. They are nervous, on alert and *we* decide that excitement is pleasure. Some may even enjoy it but how do we really know?
We convince ourselves horses somehow owe us something because we feed them, keep them in nice warm stables wearing lovely fluffy rugs, conveniently forgetting we never gave the horse a choice and that all he knows is to do what we say. 
Please wake up everyone. Horses are so generous and naturally cooperative they put up with so much from us day in day out, the least we can do is get real and admit and own that we make them do all this stuff for our own pleasure and gain they really have no choice in the matter.
If they don't cooperate or get sick or are not good enough they get the bullet or palmed off.

Does anyone remember the millions of years before you were born? Do you miss it? Of course not, we were not aware of it and we will (probably) not be aware of the future after our deaths. So what if horses are never born, they wont know! 
We need to look to the ones who are alive and see them for what they truly are not what we think they are and that we 'made' them... 

Click to expand...

I have never read such c**p in my life! Go and cuddle some bunnies!


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## fburton (25 May 2012)

Shazbat said:



			I have never read such c**p in my life! Go and cuddle some bunnies!
		
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Okay, let's hear some reasoned arguments against what Amandap wrote. Can you do that?


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## Elf On A Shelf (25 May 2012)

In general putting my perspective against yours, not arguing just seeing things differently.



amandap said:



			I have been trying to ignore this thread but this is so human and so typical and has sparked a rant I'm afraid. 

This is not specifically to you EKW btw but general.

Horses are all magnificant animals, they race out of fear, urging by humans  on their backs, because other horses around them are running 
They don't race out of fear. If they were genuinely scared then they would just bolt from start to finish. Instead they settle into a pace, gallop away and quicken when asked. A horse that bolts is useless as a racehorse as it expends all of it's energy in a very short space of time.

and because they are hemmed in by the track and steered by the human. 

They aren't hemmed in. The tracks are wide and at jumpes tracks there are way around every single fence. Yes they are steered by humans because it would be just too damned dangerous to let them all run loose! 


How on earth can you say they race because they love their job?

Sit on a racehorse in a piece of work upsides and tell me that they don't enjoy what they are doing and have the competative instinct to beat their rival. If the horse doesn't enjoy it it simply won't go anywhere - whether that means standing stock still at the bottom of the gallops or by lolloping away with no interest in defeating the horse next to it. These horses, these days, are generally sent off to do a new job.

 Horses have no concept of a job, they do what they are trained to do and get used to a routine and level of exercize.

No they possibly don't have a concept of a job but they do understand what they are being asked to do through their training. We train horses for different things. Racing, Showing, Dressage, Show Jumping, Eventing, Endurance, Happy Hacking etc. If a horse doesn't like the task assigned to it then it simply won't do it, or make it as difficult as possible for the human. You can't force half a tonne of horse to do something it doesn't want to to. Yes we take advantage of their willing nature but so the same happens in every walk of life. Humans are trained for jobs. They do as they are told. But you still can't force a human to do something they don't want to.

 Horses are not machines designed by humans, they were designed by nature and man has taken them, titivated them and used them for his own pleasure and gain. 

Again yes, humans have refined, selectively bred and trained horses to do as they ask but whats the difference between that and breeding cows for meat? You use big stocky bulls to produce bigger calfs which in turn bring in more money from the abatours. Sheep are bred for the same reason. Chickens. Pigs etc. Pigeons are bred for racing. Dogs are bread for racing, showing or as game dogs. Again humans taking advantage of the animals. It's human nature to take what there is, improve upon it and use it for our purposes. Do you only eat plants? If not then you are taking advantage of animals bred for a purpose.

Humans then sit back and arrogantly declare they made them and that horses love what we make them do. Are horses knocking on the doors of racing establishments begging to race? Are ex race horses constantly escaping and running back to racing yards or courses? 

Alot of horses do genuinely love what they do in racing but then when they leave they are equally happy to readjust themselves to a new life. What about all of these horses you see that only have to glimps a jump and get excited and want to go and fly over it? It's not just racehorses that enjoy their jobs.


Horses do what we make them do, to say they do it through 'love' or because we designed them is just not true. We convince ourselves horses love it because we want to believe it. We love to see them move, run and in a state of arousal. To say that they are aroused/on their toes through love is just ridiculous. 

Excitement, anticipation, jittery wired nerves yes but not fear.

They are nervous, on alert and *we* decide that excitement is pleasure. Some may even enjoy it but how do we really know?

We don't and as you say we choose to believe it but if they didn't love what they do trust me - they would plant themselves and refuse point blank to move! They aren't stupid. They know that they are much stronger than us mere humans.

We convince ourselves horses somehow owe us something because we feed them, keep them in nice warm stables wearing lovely fluffy rugs, conveniently forgetting we never gave the horse a choice and that all he knows is to do what we say. 
What would happen if we turned all of the horses loose? They would fight, kick, bite, destroy each other until there was only the biggest and best left - survival of the fittest. Some wouldn't even last 5minutes. So whilst no horses don't owe us anything in theory for being the beautiful magnificent creatures that they are nothing in life is free. Some people are happy to accept that their horses beauty is all the payment that they need for caring for them, others prefer their horses to work. Same as humans - your no going support another human for no other reason than they might be pretty you would want them to help out, work, chip in to help keep themselves.


Please wake up everyone. Horses are so generous and naturally cooperative they put up with so much from us day in day out, the least we can do is get real and admit and own that we make them do all this stuff for our own pleasure and gain they really have no choice in the matter.

Yeah they do have a choice. It's called refusal. average 70kg human vs 500kg horse? I think you can guess the winner. As for suffering - they would suffer more turned loose now. Humans have refined them and molly coddled horses in all walks of life enough for them to almost become reliant on humans.

If they don't cooperate or get sick or are not good enough they get the bullet or palmed off.

Rarely do horses get bulleted these days, lethal injections are the way forward - less mess. More and more racehorse trainers are seeing the benefits of finding horses that are naff, buggered or sour new homes to do a different job that they will enjoy and are capable of. Alot also won't just palm them off to anyone because it gets them a bad name. They are becoming more selective about new owners of their horses. Yes some are still just palmed off but it is becoming rarer.

Does anyone remember the millions of years before you were born? Do you miss it? Of course not, we were not aware of it and we will (probably) not be aware of the future after our deaths. So what if horses are never born, they wont know! 

That's kinda completely irrelevent! If they never knew of their many many predecessors then of course they are never going to know what they got up to. The roaming around the countryside wild is completly impossible now due to raods and vehicles and fences.

We need to look to the ones who are alive and see them for what they truly are not what we think they are and that we 'made' them... 

What do you do with your horse? You have made into what you want it to be.

Click to expand...

At the end of the day it's human nature to take advantage of everything that they are bigger, smarter or stronger than. It's evolution - survival of the fittest and all that jazz. If you ban horse racing then where do you stop? Ban show jumping for making horses jump fence after fence? Dressage for going round and round in boring circles? Endurance for pushing your horse to the limits? Showing for breeding for looks and conformation?


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## cptrayes (25 May 2012)

Shazbat said:



			I have never read such c**p in my life! Go and cuddle some bunnies!
		
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I too would like to hear your sensible argument as to what AmandaP wrote which is incorrect, so that we can discuss our differences.

AP I also agree with you. I tried on another thread a few weeks back to explain that horses race because they don't want to be the one at the back who becomes the lion's breakfast and got a similar reaction to the one you have had.

The truth, I think, is that we will never get agreement on this kind of topic. You and I, and people like us, can't understand why others can't see that what you wrote is self-evident truth. Those others cannot understand what planet we come from that we believe it. There is no middle ground to stand on, unfortunately


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## Elf On A Shelf (25 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			The truth, I think, is that we will never get agreement on this kind of topic. You and I, and people like us, can't understand why others can't see that what you wrote is self-evident truth. Those others cannot understand what planet we come from that we believe it. There is no middle ground to stand on, unfortunately 

Click to expand...

If everyone agreed than life would be incredibly, incredibly boring. If everyone liked the same things and disliked the same things then it would be a very boring, uniform world. Humans are individuals with different ideas, styles, tastes, likes, loves and despisals. I can appreciate your views I just don't agree with them because I have my own opinion of Life, The Universe and Everything!

Happy Towel Day people!


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## cptrayes (25 May 2012)

EKW said:



			More and more racehorse trainers are seeing the benefits of finding horses that are naff, buggered or sour new homes to do a different job that they will enjoy and are capable of. Alot also won't just palm them off to anyone because it gets them a bad name. They are becoming more selective about new owners of their horses. Yes some are still just palmed off but it is becoming rarer.
		
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I am sorry EKW but  I cannot agree with your comment that palming off unsound or slow horses is in any way "rarer". The furthest I would go is "slightly less common". Any trip to a general "horses in training" sale at Ascot or Doncaster would make this perfectly plain. Dozens of horses going through every day of the sale at, or on, or failing to make minimum bid, with not a care from the owner or trainer where they may end up.

I wouldn't mind betting that the contract terms of many partnerships and syndicates require the horse to be sold to the highest bidder on disposal of the asset.


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## Dobiegirl (25 May 2012)

EKW said:



			In general putting my perspective against yours, not arguing just seeing things differently.



At the end of the day it's human nature to take advantage of everything that they are bigger, smarter or stronger than. It's evolution - survival of the fittest and all that jazz. If you ban horse racing then where do you stop? Ban show jumping for making horses jump fence after fence? Dressage for going round and round in boring circles? Endurance for pushing your horse to the limits? Showing for breeding for looks and conformation?
		
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Well said and brilliantly explained so even the layman can understand, also Mrs B a very good replyabout the working sheep dog,it is called inert behaviour so I suppose in a way they do know about what went before.


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## Mrs B (25 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			The truth, I think, is that we will never get agreement on this kind of topic. You and I, and people like us, can't understand why others can't see that what you wrote is self-evident truth. Those others cannot understand what planet we come from that we believe it. There is no middle ground to stand on, unfortunately 

Click to expand...

Quite. I look at your idea of 'self-evident truth' and shake my head in bewilderment. As I'm sure you do of mine.



PS Note to EKW - 42.


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## cptrayes (25 May 2012)

Mrs B said:



			Quite. I look at your idea of 'self-evident truth' and shake my head in bewilderment. As I'm sure you do of mine.



PS Note to EKW - 42.
		
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54 actually 

In the last episode, the question to which Deep Thought provided the answer is spelled out as "what is 6 times 9?".

There really is nothing wrong with being drunk unless you are a glass of water.


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## Elf On A Shelf (25 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I am sorry EKW but  I cannot agree with your comment that palming off unsound or slow horses is in any way "rarer". The furthest I would go is "slightly less common". Any trip to a general "horses in training" sale at Ascot or Doncaster would make this perfectly plain. Dozens of horses going through every day of the sale at, or on, or failing to make minimum bid, with not a care from the owner or trainer where they may end up.
		
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No fair play, Ascot is known as the dumping ground of the crap but the horses still have a minimum bid price and if that isn't acheived then they go home or deals are made outside of the ring. Some of these horses will go back into racing because owners or trainers are looking for cheap bargins hoping to turn them into something better. Most trainers now know that it is more profitable for them to sell a horse straight out training as they don't have the sales fees to pay plus they would probably sell for a bit more. Yes some owners and trainers truly don't care as they have to look to the future and what they are being paid to train next, not look into the past.

Doncaster is not the same as Ascot. You send horses to Donny because they will probably go back into racing as they are still able to. Or are sold as broodmares. Donny is a bit more elite, rarely do they get sold out of racing there and rarely do you send the truly crap horses there. Same with Goffs.


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## cptrayes (25 May 2012)

I have bought from Doncaster many times and always picked up the cheap rejects to retrain. I do not recognise your description of Doncaster being in any way elite.


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## Elf On A Shelf (25 May 2012)

Mrs B said:



			PS Note to EKW - 42.
		
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Love it! Was wondering who would notice! Hehe!


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## Mrs B (25 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			54 actually 

In the last episode, the question to which Deep Thought provided the answer is spelled out as "what is 6 times 9?".

There really is nothing wrong with being drunk unless you are a glass of water.
		
Click to expand...

*Reaches for a large Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster*


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## Elf On A Shelf (25 May 2012)

Mrs B said:



			*Reaches for a large Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster* 

Click to expand...

Jamesons
Frozen cubes of Gin
Spiced Rum
Mint Schanpps
Lemon Vodka
Absinth
A splah of green tobasco 
And an Olive to top it off!

Sorry! Back on topic - Donny is slightly more elite than Ascot due to the price aggregate. Ascot £2k. Donny - £70-80k on average. May Sales not so much as that is the end of season sale but the August sales top the bill.


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## Dobiegirl (25 May 2012)

I should have said innate behaviour not inert, that will teach me  not to cook supper at the same time.


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## Mrs B (25 May 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			I should have said innate behaviour not inert, that will teach me  not to cook supper at the same time.

Click to expand...

 Inert behaviour *was* being demonstrated at the time: by the lazy yard labby. No change there, then....


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## tristar (26 May 2012)

i wish people would not refer to them as 'crap' they are living creatures and i have great concern for the fate of such horses, i bet some of them are lovely kind, generous horses, who through no fault of their own face a bad end.

they can't do anything to help themselves, they are completely at the mercy of humans, so have some respect please.


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## Elf On A Shelf (26 May 2012)

Sorry! Next time I shall refer to them as 'Those that lack sufficiant talent, limb or mind structure to do the task required of them at the time.'


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## tristar (26 May 2012)

or call them the one's that were bred by people who put the two wrong horses together, and who  lack talent where it comes to breeding, broke it in too young, could'nt see far enough to let wait another year, then put it with a trainer who failed in his task, and quite possibly suffered an unecessary injury due to any combination of the above, and then await an uncertain future because there is no satifactory provisions put in place by the people who did this to them.


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## Mrs B (26 May 2012)

tristar said:



			or call them the one's that were bred by people who put the two wrong horses together, and who  lack talent where it comes to breeding, broke it in too young, could'nt see far enough to let wait another year, then put it with a trainer who failed in his task, and quite possibly suffered an unecessary injury due to any combination of the above, and then await an uncertain future because there is no satifactory provisions put in place by the people who did this to them.
		
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So you really think those with racehorses just put a male and female together, without planning and forethought, then pay fees to a trainer just for a lark? Because it's such a cheap thing to do, isn't it? 

I can think of rather more areas of the horseworld where that happens: maybe your comment would be taken more seriously if you took that into consideration.

I rather think that a TB that doesn't make the grade has a statistically better chance of a new purpose in life than most of those poor little coloured mites you see standing miserably in awful fields next to their newly pregnant mothers...


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## Echo Bravo (26 May 2012)

And I agree with Mrs B, as I bought one of those little coloured mites, he has the worse feet I've ever seen I think they are called mule/boxy and he has a sister born 3 weeks ago same sire so God knows what her feet will be like and some people go on about Thoroughbreds breeding at least their parents are for public scrutiny.


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## Elf On A Shelf (26 May 2012)

With the stud fees these days you wouldnt just be putting any old mish mash together! Galileo only gets the very best of mares because his stud fee is so high and Coolmore want to keep it that way so you only cross the best with the best to, in theory, produce another cracker.


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## Over2You (8 September 2012)

Over2You said:



*NINETY EIGHT* horses have now been killed on racetracks in the UK. 

Their names:

Persian Gates
South Wing   
Broadway Star 
Tinzapeas 
Brave Command  
Newfangled  
Presenting Ace  
Mike Towey  
Osiris Way 
Good Mind  
Kadouchski  
Veiled 
Strictly  
Lucky Mix 
Sabre Tiger 
Well Green 
Valsky Kauto  
Society Venue 
High Miswaki  
Bring On The Judge  
Schism 
Incitement 
Sweet Vera 
Themanfromfraam 
The Grifter 
Willard 
Flinty Bay  
The Mighty Mod  
The Nile 
Cydonia 
Plunkett  
Kings Story 
Alfloramoor 
Pillar Of Hercules  
Rainbow Gold 
Behindcloseddoors  
Billy Dane  
Captain Dimitrios 
High Ransom 
Pirates Gold  
Massimo  
Broughtons Paradis  
Drumbaloo  
Lyrical Chant  
Unowatimeen  
Bottman  
Gray Pearl
Jubail
First Order
Prince Blue
Optimist 
Takhreej 
Advertise
The Prentender 
Welcome Approach
Nanna Maura 
Arrys Orse
According To Pete
Synchronised 
Just Jordan
Gottany OS
Milans Man 
Lets Go Girls
U B Carefull
Olivino 
Dont Tell The Wife 
Canni Thinkaar 
Connak 
Gross Prophet
Abergavenny
Featherbed Lane 
Palawi 
Scotsirish 
Garde Champetre 
Educated Evans 
Harry Handsome 
Mottley Crewe
Drybrook Bedouin
Will Scarlet 
Rougham
Deferto Delphi
Moving Wings 
Bygones In Brid 
Marigolds Way
Pendoun
King Of Keys 
Blue Ronnie 
Danehill Willy
Hopeful Start 
Simonsberg 
Tourist
Uncle Bryn
Haafhd Handsome
Mr Chow 
Montegonian 
Salberto 
Hidden Keel
This Masquerade

Rest peacefully poor horses. You were the victims of unjustifiable greed and arrogance.


Don't even try to tell me that any other equestrian sport kills anywhere near as many horses as that!!
		
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It is now up-to-date with the latest figures.


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## Mrs B (8 September 2012)

Oh, do bog off, O2Y. If you made any other contribution to the forum than periodically popping up with your very warped view of the horseworld and racing in particular, you might find people had more time for you.


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## Suelin (8 September 2012)

I wonder how many horses have been killed altogether in 2012.  A sight more than 98!  Probably in many cases due to neglect or cruelty.  I feel that more energy and concern should be directed at those personally.


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## Over2You (8 September 2012)

Suelin said:



			I wonder how many horses have been killed altogether in 2012.  A sight more than 98!  Probably in many cases due to neglect or cruelty.  I feel that more energy and concern should be directed at those personally.
		
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Here we go again. Just because horses die due to cruelty, etc, makes the deaths in racing alright. What a terrible attitude!


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## WestCoast (8 September 2012)

Actually it's probably more hard hitting if you find out the names of all those sent off for meat when they are no longer usefull. But I guess it's no different to what happens to dairy cows or any animal bred for meat. 

Paula


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## floradora (8 September 2012)

OP, could you please tell me the circumstances of the death of 'Advertise'? Thanks


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## TrasaM (8 September 2012)

OP.. What do you propose as a solution?  Stop horse racing? Do you object to horse riding completely or just racing?


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## Caledonia (8 September 2012)

Over2You said:



			Here we go again. Just because horses die due to cruelty, etc, makes the deaths in racing alright. What a terrible attitude!
		
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I'd say your attitude is the more terrible, because you refuse to accept that other sports have attrition rates too, and you are biased against racing. 

A quick death on a racecourse is not the worst fate to be suffered by a horse.


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## Dobiegirl (8 September 2012)

floradora said:



			OP, could you please tell me the circumstances of the death of 'Advertise'? Thanks
		
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According to the Racehorse death watch site which O2Y belongs he collapsed and died after the race having finished second. How accurate is this I couldnt say because that site has reported horses before which were alive.


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## Over2You (8 September 2012)

Caledonia said:



			I'd say your attitude is the more terrible, because you refuse to accept that other sports have attrition rates too, and you are biased against racing. 

A quick death on a racecourse is not the worst fate to be suffered by a horse.
		
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My attitude?! Yours is appalling!! You are blatantly refusing to admit (or even care) that racing kills far, far too many horses!! 

As for your last sentence. What a callous thing to say!!


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## Over2You (8 September 2012)

TrasaM said:



			OP.. What do you propose as a solution?  Stop horse racing? Do you object to horse riding completely or just racing?
		
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I wholeheartedly object to a 'sport' that has such a high fatality rate. That repeatedly puts tremendous amounts of strain on horses as young as two and three-years old. That sends them galloping over horrible jumps from as early on as four-years-old. Sorry, but no other horse sport is anywhere near as tough on horses!


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## Caledonia (8 September 2012)

Over2You said:



			My attitude?! Yours is appalling!! You are blatantly refusing to admit (or even care) that racing kills far, far too many horses!! 

As for your last sentence. What a callous thing to say!!
		
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Now where did I say that I refuse to admit that horses are killed racing?  

Horses die doing all jobs, your attitude is terrible because you are being self-indulgent about how you feel about racing, not about the realities of horse welfare across the board, which is far more pressing.

BTW, what's callous about a quick end? Or do you believe all horses should live forever?


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## TrasaM (8 September 2012)

O2Y..if you take the number of races and the number of horses taking part in racing across the UK per annum the % of deaths as a result would be quite small. I'd agree that there are issues to be solved with some of the big jump races..grand national being the most notorious. I don't know the figures for deaths and serious injury but X country and eventing has a pretty high death toll for horses. Are there figures posted anywhere for these deaths?


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## char3479 (8 September 2012)

The racing industry is about money not horses. It's driven by profit not welfare. 
Anyone who knows anything about racing, knows that only a small percentage of horses bred to be racehorses live to a ripe old age.
Fact.


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## TrasaM (8 September 2012)

char3479 said:



			The racing industry is about money not horses. It's driven by profit not welfare. 

Fact.
		
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Of course it is. Why else would they do it? But do racehorse trainers and breeders have a monopoly on callousness with regards to horses? No! They just happen to be in the public eye more. There are worse things to be than a racehorse IMO.


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## char3479 (8 September 2012)

TrasaM said:



			Of course it is. Why else would they do it? But do racehorse trainers and breeders have a monopoly on callousness with regards to horses? No! They just happen to be in the public eye more. There are worse things to be than a racehorse IMO.
		
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Oh. Other animals suffer too, so it doesn't matter.  Good argument.


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## TrasaM (8 September 2012)

TrasaM said:



			O2Y..if you take the number of races and the number of horses taking part in racing across the UK per annum the % of deaths as a result would be quite small. I'd agree that there are issues to be solved with some of the big jump races..grand national being the most notorious. I don't know the figures for deaths and serious injury but X country and eventing has a pretty high death toll for horses. Are there figures posted anywhere for these deaths?
		
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char3479 said:



			Oh. Other animals suffer too, so it doesn't matter.  Good argument.
		
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That's not what I meant. I think it's a bit short sighted to look at issues with horse health and welfare in one specific section of the equine world and ignore the rest.


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## floradora (8 September 2012)

Thanks Dobiegirl, he used to be in my care in the past. Somehow seemed to miss this in the Racing Post at the time.


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## Caledonia (8 September 2012)

char3479 said:



			Anyone who knows anything about racing, knows that only a small percentage of horses bred to be racehorses live to a ripe old age.
Fact.
		
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Really? 

Stats to back up your fact, please. I know plenty racers that have lived to ripe old ages.

As there are no records for other sports, ore even general breeding, you have no means of comparing racing stats to any other section of the equine industry.

Such irony that racing is the ONLY responsible equestrian body that documents its breeding numbers and race figures to help it self-regulate, and to boot allows for all and sundry to see those stats, then those same stats are used against it.  

 And make no mistake, it's ALL about money across the boards of all equestrianism. Horses are commodities in every sphere.


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## Over2You (8 September 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Now where did I say that I refuse to admit that horses are killed racing?  

Horses die doing all jobs, your attitude is terrible because you are being self-indulgent about how you feel about racing, not about the realities of horse welfare across the board, which is far more pressing.

BTW, what's callous about a quick end? Or do you believe all horses should live forever?
		
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Far more pressing than getting rid of a nasty sport that kills horses left, right, and centre? Your comment WAS callous because it meant that it doesn't matter if they die - just as long as it's quick.


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## Over2You (8 September 2012)

TrasaM said:



			O2Y..if you take the number of races and the number of horses taking part in racing across the UK per annum the % of deaths as a result would be quite small. I'd agree that there are issues to be solved with some of the big jump races..grand national being the most notorious. I don't know the figures for deaths and serious injury but X country and eventing has a pretty high death toll for horses. Are there figures posted anywhere for these deaths?
		
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No, the figures aren't online. However, one only has to look at the obvious to realise that eventing is far less taxing on horses. They go round one at a time and at slower speeds. The fences have been made safer (with frangible pins and by lowering them), and the roads, tracks, and steeple chasing phases have been removed. This has resulted in horses being able to compete for longer. Some even compete into their late teens (such as Over to You and Lenamore). That is something you NEVER see in racing. I have also watched hundreds of horses compete at the Olympics and Paralympics and did NOT witness or hear of a single fatality. If the same number of horses had been racing, you are damned sure there would have been fatalities!


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## angrovestud (8 September 2012)

I feel I am able to talk about what it is like to breed and own a racehorse who jumps we love our horses from the minute they are concieved and moving around in mums tummy to the day we pull there bedclothes off there faces and take there first breath, we as breeders and owners go through every emotion possible when we watch a horse we bred go to the race, fear happiness you name it we feel it.
I have had the sorrow of having to PTS a 4 month old colt as his leg was swinging due to a paddock accident just playing, very bad accidents happen in fields with horses all the time.
what I find appauling O2Y is you lump everyone in the same boat how dare you! we do not all do things for money some of us do it A, for love and B, because we can! now go and find a cause to help people seing as how you are full of it!


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## Elf On A Shelf (8 September 2012)

I wondered when O2Y would crop up again.

*gets out the popcorn*


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## bonny (8 September 2012)

It's like an argument between pro and anti foxhunting in that there is never a resolution. Some of us are racing fans or involved and we have to try and justify to ourselves the inevitable deaths and injuries and some people will just never understand.
I  think there is a argument that the OP will ever understand another viewpoint and it's a waste of time trying.


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## Alec Swan (8 September 2012)

EKW said:



			I wondered when O2Y would crop up again.

.......

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As did I.



Caledonia said:



			I'd say your attitude is the more terrible, because you refuse to accept that other sports have attrition rates too, and you are biased against racing. 

A quick death on a racecourse is not the worst fate to be suffered by a horse.
		
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Over2You said:



			My attitude?! Yours is appalling!! You are blatantly refusing to admit (or even care) that racing kills far, far too many horses!! 

As for your last sentence. What a callous thing to say!!
		
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O2Y,  Whilst I accept that you care,  you also have to accept that your opinions are those born of emotive twaddle,  and are not realistic.  

It's generally been my experience,  that when we feel that the rest of the world is out of step with us,  there's generally a good reason for that.  It may well be that you feel like a lonely soul,  in that your argument receives little support,  and for much the same reason,  there's a valid answer to that,  too! 

Alec.


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## Suelin (8 September 2012)

Over2You said:



			Here we go again. Just because horses die due to cruelty, etc, makes the deaths in racing alright. What a terrible attitude!
		
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DO NOT QUERY MY ATTITUDE!!!!!!!! FURTHERMORE DO NOT TWIST MY WORDS TO SUIT YOUR OWN ARGUMENT!!!!  ARE WE CLEAR????

My point was that there are worse things for a horse to be than a racehorse.  Yes some die, so do happy hackers, dressage horses and many others.  It is my opinion that if anyone wants to make life better for horses then go and find where the real problems are and get them sorted.

Life is not perfect sadly and any deaths and injuries to any animals doing our bidding is regrettable but inevitable unless we all decide to sit in a bubble and then we'd be bound to catch something else (Murphy's Law being what it is).


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## angrovestud (8 September 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			As did I.





O2Y,  Whilst I accept that you care,  you also have to accept that your opinions are those born of emotive twaddle,  and are not realistic.  

It's generally been my experience,  that when we feel that the rest of the world is out of step with us,  there's generally a good reason for that.  It may well be that you feel like a lonely soul,  in that your argument receives little support,  and for much the same reason,  there's a valid answer to that,  too! 

Alec.
		
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I just love the way you put things, it make me chortle to myself sorry Alex I pray forgivness but your very good!


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## char3479 (8 September 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Really? 

Stats to back up your fact, please. I know plenty racers that have lived to ripe old ages.

As there are no records for other sports, ore even general breeding, you have no means of comparing racing stats to any other section of the equine industry.

Such irony that racing is the ONLY responsible equestrian body that documents its breeding numbers and race figures to help it self-regulate, and to boot allows for all and sundry to see those stats, then those same stats are used against it.  

 And make no mistake, it's ALL about money across the boards of all equestrianism. Horses are commodities in every sphere.
		
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I haven't compared racing, stats or otherwise, to any other section of the equine industry. 
As I stated, anyone who knows anything about racing knows that lots and lots of horses are surplus to requirements. Fact.
I know several aged ex racehorses. I own two.  I do have a question though, how many horses bred to race are born each year?


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## floradora (8 September 2012)

Thanks for your PM Dobiegirl, my phone won't let me reply to your PM , I can only receive them.


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## Caledonia (8 September 2012)

char3479 said:



			I haven't compared racing, stats or otherwise, to any other section of the equine industry. 
As I stated, anyone who knows anything about racing knows that lots and lots of horses are surplus to requirements. Fact.
I know several aged ex racehorses. I own two.  I do have a question though, how many horses bred to race are born each year?
		
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I'll try again. 




			Originally Posted by char3479  
Anyone who knows anything about racing, knows that only a small percentage of horses bred to be racehorses live to a ripe old age.
Fact.
		
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Would like the stats for this fact, please.


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## Elf On A Shelf (8 September 2012)

I have 4 retired racehorses. I know of 3 dozen more quite happy in homes as normal horses of every age from 2 til the fuly retired 28yo lawn mower.

A lot go back into breeding. Most mares that have won a race or a few will breed. Only the best of the colts are put onto stallion rosters. Some go on as sires in other disciplines, some get gelded. Alot do go on to new homes and live new lives but yes, a lot dont. 

Now you need to decide whether you want these horses dumped in fields neglected, filling up and overflowing rescue centres or to be humanely destroyed.


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## rhino (8 September 2012)

char3479 said:



			I haven't compared racing, stats or otherwise, to any other section of the equine industry. 
As I stated, anyone who knows anything about racing knows that lots and lots of horses are surplus to requirements. Fact.
		
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I hate to tell you but putting 'Fact.' after something doesn't actually make it true  If you are claiming something as 'fact' you need evidence to back it up, otherwise it is really just your opinion. Fact.


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## rubysmum (8 September 2012)

having worked [ in the most humble capacity] at a race yard for the last 8 months, i am confident that yard staff only want our horses to race safe and come home sound and that we are devastated if a horse is injured or worse.

I have seen horses retired simply because they didnt seem to be enjoying their career, have seen careful rehabilitation of horses so that they can be sold onto to new owners and a new life and have heard my [ now ex] boss refuse to sell a horse on as they didnt feel the people could offer a good enough home.
I have seen horses kept on to retirement and a life of riley as owners/trainers felt that the horse had delivered [ or in some cases not] in their working life and were now owed a peaceful retirement.

yes, some horses die, because animals die, but injured ones get good and full medical treatment and rehab, compare that to the so-called beloved pets owned by those to poor, ignorant, selfish to get vet help who rot in fields, lame, laminitc, starving. 

Having seen at least 2 horses at the bottom end of DIY [ where i belong] need to be PTS due to simple long term neglect, i feel far much less sorrow for those racehorses who have a quick response lethal injection.


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## TrasaM (8 September 2012)

Over2You said:



			No, the figures aren't online. However, one only has to look at the obvious to realise that eventing is far less taxing on horses. They go round one at a time and at slower speeds. The fences have been made safer (with frangible pins and by lowering them), and the roads, tracks, and steeple chasing phases have been removed. This has resulted in horses being able to compete for longer. Some even compete into their late teens (such as Over to You and Lenamore). That is something you NEVER see in racing. I have also watched hundreds of horses compete at the Olympics and Paralympics and did NOT witness or hear of a single fatality. If the same number of horses had been racing, you are damned sure there would have been fatalities!
		
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And I always thought that race horses are retired early for the same reason as human athletes..basically it's a young mans/woman's pursuit. Of course the number of successful horses bred is small compared to the amount if foals born each year but is this any different to any walk of life? It does not seem like a valid argument against racing.


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## Caledonia (9 September 2012)

Over2You said:



			No, the figures aren't online. However, one only has to look at the obvious to realise that eventing is far less taxing on horses. They go round one at a time and at slower speeds. The fences have been made safer (with frangible pins and by lowering them), and the roads, tracks, and steeple chasing phases have been removed. This has resulted in horses being able to compete for longer. Some even compete into their late teens (such as Over to You and Lenamore). That is something you NEVER see in racing. I have also watched hundreds of horses compete at the Olympics and Paralympics and did NOT witness or hear of a single fatality. If the same number of horses had been racing, you are damned sure there would have been fatalities!
		
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Utter tosh, loads of horses race into their teens in the PTP field. Then go on to hunt or do other jobs. Very few eventers continue to the ages of Lenamore and OTY. 

You compare racing to eventing and other sports, yet refuse to accept that fair comparison is impossible because NO OTHER SPORT keeps statisitics to compare. Cherry picking to suit your bias is pathetic.


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## Caledonia (9 September 2012)

Over2You said:



			Far more pressing than getting rid of a nasty sport that kills horses left, right, and centre? Your comment WAS callous because it meant that it doesn't matter if they die - just as long as it's quick.
		
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That's you putting words in my mouth again. 

Far better for horses to have a great life wanting for nothing, and to have a swift dispatch IF they are in the SMALL percentage that are fatally injured, than to spend their lives with people that neglect them, or abuse them through ignorance, or leave them suffering when ill because selfish humans place sentiment over suffering.


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## Laura_Grey (9 September 2012)

Over2You said:



			No, the figures aren't online. However, one only has to look at the obvious to realise that eventing is far less taxing on horses. They go round one at a time and at slower speeds. The fences have been made safer (with frangible pins and by lowering them), and the roads, tracks, and steeple chasing phases have been removed. This has resulted in horses being able to compete for longer. Some even compete into their late teens (such as Over to You and Lenamore). That is something you NEVER see in racing. I have also watched hundreds of horses compete at the Olympics and Paralympics and did NOT witness or hear of a single fatality. If the same number of horses had been racing, you are damned sure there would have been fatalities!
		
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I have been lurking, but I now feel I have to speak up.

You are so narrow minded! Please don't state things without knowing the facts. My Point to Pointer ran 9 times this season, came away with little more than a few scrapes and he is the grand age of 14. He would run again if I didn't have to Uni, he is in fabulous condition and very happy. One of the reasons you don't see 'old' racehorses is because they lose their speed and people like to retire them before they have their heart broken by being beaten.

I have had the pleasure of being associated with a couple of the horses on your list. I can tell you that they are all sorely missed, one has even had a tree planted in his memory. I know that when they were alive they were well cared for, happy souls who enjoyed their job.


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## char3479 (9 September 2012)

rhino said:



			I hate to tell you but putting 'Fact.' after something doesn't actually make it true  If you are claiming something as 'fact' you need evidence to back it up, otherwise it is really just your opinion. Fact.
		
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Thanks for the vocab lesson; I am well aware of the definitions of fact and opinion and the difference between the two. Your response was pointless and argumentative.


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## char3479 (9 September 2012)

Caledonia said:



			I'll try again. 



Would like the stats for this fact, please.
		
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Have a look in the national press and talk to the people at Potters or Turners. 
Also, try not to be too patronising in your responses because you sound a little defensive.


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## rhino (9 September 2012)

char3479 said:



			Thanks for the vocab lesson; I am well aware of the definitions of fact and opinion and the difference between the two. Your response was pointless and argumentative.
		
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Argumentative, quite possibly. Pointless, no, as we're still waiting on the  evidence to back up your assertion of 'fact'.

Funnily enough several posters on this thread know quite a lot about racing, whether as owners, trainers, jockeys or grooms/work riders. None of them have agreed with you. Sort of suggests your 'fact' is less than factual...


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## char3479 (9 September 2012)

rhino said:



			Argumentative, quite possibly. Pointless, no, as we're still waiting on the  evidence to back up your assertion of 'fact'.

Funnily enough several posters on this thread know quite a lot about racing, whether as owners, trainers, jockeys or grooms/work riders. None of them have agreed with you. Sort of suggests your 'fact' is less than factual...
		
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sands--end-dog-food-French-dinner-plates.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/01/horseracing.sport

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/06/racehorse-slaughter-animal-welfare


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## rhino (9 September 2012)

char3479 said:



			The racing industry is about money not horses. It's driven by profit not welfare. 
Anyone who knows anything about racing, knows that only a small percentage of horses bred to be racehorses live to a ripe old age.
Fact.
		
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Sorry, but 3 articles (if you can even call something in the DM an article) does not prove that ANYONE who knows ANYTHING about racing agrees with ANYTHING. It shows that there are 3 articles about thoroughbreds being pts. Not quite the same.

Try again?


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## Alec Swan (9 September 2012)

char3479,

I haven't read all the articles which you've offered as evidence,  but this I did notice;

_Shockingly, this perfectly healthy racehorse was taken from her stables in Lambourn, Berkshire, and slaughtered at a British abattoir simply because 'business is bad' in the racing world._

I take perfectly healthy lambs,  and calves direct into an abattoir.  Tell me,  is what I do correct,  or not?

Alec.


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 September 2012)

To be honest I think peoples problem with horse slaughter in this country is because we see them as pets, friends and companions. Cows, sheep, pigs and chickens are all seen as livestock bred for dinner so there is no problem with them being killed.


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## char3479 (9 September 2012)

Sighs. National newspaper articles providing clear evidence of the fate of horses surplus to requirements and you still won't hoist it in.  I can't argue with someone who chooses to ignore what is clearly true.  And people who are going off on a tangent about other livestock, it doesn't make it okay just because it happens to other animals. Bored.


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## Dobiegirl (9 September 2012)

I know one of the slaughtermen and can tell you they slaughter far more hill ponies than they do racehorses. I dont see or hear you taking umbrage with that probabley because they are not perceived to be owned by rich people whereas racehorses are.


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## Mrs B (9 September 2012)

char3479 said:



			And people who are going off on a tangent about other livestock, it doesn't make it okay just because it happens to other animals.
		
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It's not a tangent - it's a perfectly valid point. It just doesn't seem to fit in with your rather simplistic view.


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## Dab (9 September 2012)

char3479 said:



			The racing industry is about money not horses. It's driven by profit not welfare.
		
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Can you please explain the point you are trying to make? Horse Racing has some high levels of welfare, deaths at races are recorded, the horses receive immediate and first class attention on course, many veterinary advances are driven and paid for by the racing industry.
Without the horses there would be no industry and no money!


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## PolarSkye (9 September 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Really? 

Stats to back up your fact, please. I know plenty racers that have lived to ripe old ages.

As there are no records for other sports, ore even general breeding, you have no means of comparing racing stats to any other section of the equine industry.

Such irony that racing is the ONLY responsible equestrian body that documents its breeding numbers and race figures to help it self-regulate, and to boot allows for all and sundry to see those stats, then those same stats are used against it.  

 And make no mistake, it's ALL about money across the boards of all equestrianism. Horses are commodities in every sphere.
		
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You speak much sense .

There are five ex-racers at my yard, three owned by one woman, the other two owned by two different people.  One is 29.  In addition I have ten other friends with off track TBs . . . yes, racehorses are disposable and some very nice TBs end up in cans . . . but you could say the same about many other breeds and no particular equine niche is free from sin in this regard.  Any time people are breeding horses for a particular purpose - to run fast, jump high, look pretty, etc., there will be those who are bred and don't make the grade . . . and are therefore disposable in one way or another.  

OP - you are naive if you think that racing is the only equine industry with needless fatalities - either in the pursuit of the sport or in the pursuit of the perfect equine for the sport.

P


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## Caledonia (9 September 2012)

char3479 said:



			Have a look in the national press and talk to the people at Potters or Turners. 
Also, try not to be too patronising in your responses because you sound a little defensive. 

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So you are using newspapers as your factual source? That would be laughable if it wasn't that the ill informed amongst us choose to believe the bias that sells papers. 

I wasn't intentionally being patronising, so I apologise - I obviously failed to disguise my contempt for your lack of sound argument.


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## Amymay (10 September 2012)

char3479 said:



			Anyone who knows anything about racing, knows that only a small percentage of horses bred to be racehorses live to a ripe old age.
*Fact*.
		
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Can you provide the actual detailed statistics on that char3479 please, rather than three newspaper articles?


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## merrymeasure (10 September 2012)

I know quite a lot of ex-racers who have gone on to long and happy lives after racing. And my old boy lived to age 29, was full of life and it was "only" colic that finally took him from me.


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## Amymay (10 September 2012)

char3479 said:



			Sighs. *National newspaper articles providing clear evidence* of the fate of horses surplus to requirements and you still won't hoist it in.  I can't argue with someone who chooses to ignore what is clearly true.  And people who are going off on a tangent about other livestock, it doesn't make it okay just because it happens to other animals. Bored.
		
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Have you heard of the Levison Enquiry?


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