# 9 month old colt - advise please - as much as possible



## Gaz_Lincs (4 February 2011)

Hi everyone.

I have just bought a 8-9 month old foal, and it is the first 'youngster' that i have had, so i want to do everything right, give him the best upbringing possible, and to make sure that he is handled well, respects people, can be caught, etc...

So, with that in mind, i would like some advice and any tips/recommendations on things i can do with him, to get him used to people, and getting him used to being brought up the way i want him to.

He is a Welsh Section D, 9 month old colt, lovely horse, quite cheeky at the moment, but has had limited handling so far in his life, apart from being brought in a few times for a bit of food and some hay (this was with his breeder).

He does seem to pick his feet up when i was him too. He is a little bit 'nippy' at the moment, when i am near him and picking his feet up, he does seem to like eating my back and giving me a good groom.

He has been in the stable since he arrived. I have put him in the yard for a little bit, not a massive area, but big enough for him to have a stretch and just have a look around. However, obviously, i dont want to put him out in the field yet, as he was a bit difficult to catch in the yard yesterday, and that isnt even a big area.

So, any advice would be fantastic on what you feel are excellent methods of training a horse that is my horse's age.

Many thanks everyone.


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## Amymay (4 February 2011)

What company will this little chap have, and has he been gelded?


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## Gaz_Lincs (4 February 2011)

Hi - thanks for the reply.

I am keeping him entire - as is breeding is excellent and i also feel it will influence the growth of him up until a 3-4 year old. I may geld him when he is a 4 year old but obviously, that is in the future.

He has 3 mares keeping him company - 

An 11 year old QH
A 3 year old Cob x Irish Draught
A 10 year old Shetland Pony.

Thanks again.


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## bensababy (4 February 2011)

Gaz_Lincs said:



			Hi - thanks for the reply.

I am keeping him entire - as is breeding is excellent and i also feel it will influence the growth of him up until a 3-4 year old. I may geld him when he is a 4 year old but obviously, that is in the future.

He has 3 mares keeping him company - 

An 11 year old QH
A 3 year old Cob x Irish Draught
A 10 year old Shetland Pony.

Thanks again.
		
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wow if this little chap hormones kick in and he gets a little randy with these 3 mares.. you could have some interesting times. 

I think you are quite brave being your first youngster and keeping him entire. I have not had much handling with colts as mine was gelded after a month of having him. All i can suggest is alot of handling, walking around, making sure he knows his boundaries with you and hes not too bolshy, whats his temperament like now?


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## Kao (4 February 2011)

I wouldn't say that's the best idea, keeping him with 3 mares.
Unless you want 3 unwanted foals and a part in the backyard breeding contribution, I suggest you seek out male company for him.


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## Gaz_Lincs (4 February 2011)

Apologies - i should have said, he is only going to be there for 3-4 weeks as my yard is being concreted at the moment and with one thing or another, he will be staying there for 3-4 weeks, that is all.

When he comes back to where i keep my horses, he will be kept with a 11 year old gelding, no mares.


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## bensababy (4 February 2011)

Whats his breeding if you dont mind me asking?


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## Maesfen (4 February 2011)

I won't be the first or only one to say this but contrary to old wives tales, leaving him entire won't change his original growth disposition and also, leaving him entire will restrict him to a very singular life in the long run.  There are plenty of geldings about with excellent breeding who can and do, lead a very normal horse life, they can be turned out and kept with company which is something you'll be denying this chap as this spring he will be fertile enough to get your mares in foal or is this what you want?  Also Section D's are two a penny, you can't go anywhere without falling over them, good and bad, do you really need to add to that number?   Sorry this sounds so negative but you have to have excellent reasons to keep him entire and his breeding isn't reason enough; he has to be a fabulous specimen of the breed, have the correct temperament and movement too, to even have a chance of being successful otherwise you are making him have a miserable life away from company for nothing.

Regular, firm but kind handling will be necessary and always take one step at a time, don't fill his mind with too many different things as it could set him back; don't over face him either, he's only young, he needs to be allowed to be  a free young horse while he can.  There are plenty of good books about, one I'd recommend is Jennie L- C's Training The Young Horse I think it's called, another is From Paddock to Saddle by Elwyn Hartley Edwards.


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## VoyPor (4 February 2011)

Maesfen said:



*I won't be the first or only one to say this but contrary to old wives tales, leaving him entire won't change his original growth disposition* and also, leaving him entire will restrict him to a very singular life in the long run.  There are plenty of geldings about with excellent breeding who can and do, lead a very normal horse life, they can be turned out and kept with company which is something you'll be denying this chap as this spring he will be fertile enough to get your mares in foal or is this what you want?  Also Section D's are two a penny, you can't go anywhere without falling over them, good and bad, do you really need to add to that number?   Sorry this sounds so negative but you have to have excellent reasons to keep him entire and his breeding isn't reason enough; he has to be a fabulous specimen of the breed, have the correct temperament and movement too, to even have a chance of being successful otherwise you are making him have a miserable life away from company for nothing.
		
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Is that true?!? i have always thought it directly influenced it........


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## Sarah Sum1 (4 February 2011)

What company will he have at your yard when it's finished. Is he staying in for the 3 or so weeks he is at this yard?


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## amy_b (4 February 2011)

I have had a miniature stallion since he was weaned and kept him entire, I'm very strict with him but even with that he still nips and is difficult, thats just how some stallions are. If you keep him entire the chances are he will stay nippy for the rest of his life. you also need to deicde whether he is nice enough to keep as a stallion, the welsh market is so competitive, for the hassle of owning a stallion it would be cheaper and easier to use somebody else's to breed from, you have to be quite ruthless and ask yourself if he is a nice gelding rather than a stallion.
that said - he's your foaly so your entitled to do as you pelase!!
he will probably come round in his own time with you handling him daily and brushing him, changing rugs, feeding, they soon work out where the food comes from. also if you attach a rope to his headcoller two hands width's long it will make him easier to ctach  
have fun!


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## Gaz_Lincs (4 February 2011)

Maesfen said:



			I won't be the first or only one to say this but contrary to old wives tales, leaving him entire won't change his original growth disposition and also, leaving him entire will restrict him to a very singular life in the long run.  There are plenty of geldings about with excellent breeding who can and do, lead a very normal horse life, they can be turned out and kept with company which is something you'll be denying this chap as this spring he will be fertile enough to get your mares in foal or is this what you want?  Also Section D's are two a penny, you can't go anywhere without falling over them, good and bad, do you really need to add to that number?   Sorry this sounds so negative but you have to have excellent reasons to keep him entire and his breeding isn't reason enough; he has to be a fabulous specimen of the breed, have the correct temperament and movement too, to even have a chance of being successful otherwise you are making him have a miserable life away from company for nothing.

Regular, firm but kind handling will be necessary and always take one step at a time, don't fill his mind with too many different things as it could set him back; don't over face him either, he's only young, he needs to be allowed to be  a free young horse while he can.  There are plenty of good books about, one I'd recommend is Jennie L- C's Training The Young Horse I think it's called, another is From Paddock to Saddle by Elwyn Hartley Edwards.
		
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Yes!!!

I always thought that the 'entire' thing, helped with their growth too, so i too would be interested in seeing some links, evidence and studies though rather than a few people's opinions, if you have any information. Thank you.


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## Gaz_Lincs (4 February 2011)

Sarah sum1 said:



			What company will he have at your yard when it's finished. Is he staying in for the 3 or so weeks he is at this yard?
		
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As above, a 11 year old gelding Thoroughbred. He wont be staying in for the 3 weeks, he will be out in the yard with the Shetland Pony on a night, and in during the day, or in at night, out during the day.


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## Maesfen (4 February 2011)

According to my vets, no, growth is pre ordained and only altered by such things as nutrition and management (under or over-fed)  A stallion will obviously have more presence and because of his attitude of showing he's the best, his muscles will sometimes be more developed which unless the gelding is kept fit, he won't show as much.  That's how they explain it to me, it's man's input and management that alters things not the act of castration itself.  Would be interesting to compare though of siblings kept in the same regime but one gelded, other not.


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## cm2581 (4 February 2011)

VoyPor said:



			Is that true?!? i have always thought it directly influenced it........
		
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No influence what so ever.


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## Gaz_Lincs (4 February 2011)

Maesfen said:



			According to my vets, no, growth is pre ordained and only altered by such things as nutrition and management (under or over-fed)  A stallion will obviously have more presence and because of his attitude of showing he's the best, his muscles will sometimes be more developed which unless the gelding is kept fit, he won't show as much.  That's how they explain it to me, it's man's input and management that alters things not the act of castration itself.  Would be interesting to compare though of siblings kept in the same regime but one gelded, other not.
		
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The reason i say this is because i have had a lot of involvement with Cleveland Bays recently, and i have to say, the ones who have been gelded later in life, seem to have a lot more size, and substance about them, in comparison to the ones that have been gelded at a younger age.

Their bone, neck, topline, etc... generally seem of a higher quality than the geldings.


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## Allover (4 February 2011)

If you want to give him the best upbringing you can, turn him out in a herd with others his own age and sex (if you are going to keep him entire) and leave him alone (apart from the basics of trimming, worming etc) until he is ready to be backed and ridden away. Are you going to use him to cover from ?


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## misst (4 February 2011)

Gaz_Lincs said:



			Yes!!!

I always thought that the 'entire' thing, helped with their growth too, so i too would be interested in seeing some links, evidence and studies though rather than a few people's opinions, if you have any information. Thank you.
		
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I don't wish to be rude but some of the "few people" on here with opinions are very very experienced and knowledgable, and respected, and I would not poo poo their advice so quickly.


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## Gaz_Lincs (4 February 2011)

misst said:



			I don't wish to be rude but some of the "few people" on here with opinions are very very experienced and knowledgable, and respected, and I would not poo poo their advice so quickly.
		
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You're not being rude, and neither was i trying to be. Im not that arrogant, rude or ignorant to 'poo poo' peoples' opinions and what they have to say, otherwise i wouldn't have made the thread in the first place. I just would have liked to have seen some form of study, etc... that is all, not meaning to 'poo poo' advice. 

It does just show how peoples' opinions differ, i have just got off the phone to the vet, and her view is that testosterone would and indeed does influence growth, bone, musculature, etc... which is what i had always 'personally believed', in the past. Her view is that as long as he isn't being daft or nipping and is being kept with a gelding, just see how it goes. So just shows that there is always going to be divided opinion it seems, even amongst professionals like vets


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## amy_b (4 February 2011)

misst said:



			I don't wish to be rude but some of the "few people" on here with opinions are very very experienced and knowledgable, and respected, and I would not poo poo their advice so quickly.
		
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experienced or not they are still opinions - of which everybody is entitled to and everybody is capable of having a bad one!!


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## JanetGeorge (4 February 2011)

Gaz_Lincs said:



			I always thought that the 'entire' thing, helped with their growth too, so i too would be interested in seeing some links, evidence and studies though rather than a few people's opinions, if you have any information. Thank you.
		
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30 years ago, the general view was that gelding a colt would slow its growth.  Now the opposite is the view and my personal belief - based on considerable experience of watching both colts and geldings grow up (including full siblings) - that gelding a colt young will get it growing taller than it would if it was left entire.  Leaving a colt entire, though, will develop a better topline - particularly in the neck!

I'm not aware of any studies - and it would be a hard one to set up as so many different factors influence growth.  Early foals almost always end up bigger than late foals.  Foals from maiden mares will normally not be as big as the same mare's later foals, etc. etc.


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## Rollin (4 February 2011)

Gaz_Lincs said:



			The reason i say this is because i have had a lot of involvement with Cleveland Bays recently, and i have to say, the ones who have been gelded later in life, seem to have a lot more size, and substance about them, in comparison to the ones that have been gelded at a younger age.

Their bone, neck, topline, etc... generally seem of a higher quality than the geldings.
		
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Interested in your post because I have CB's. (5 pure breds)  For a variety of reasons most of mine have now been x-rayed.  French vets are adamant about the need for vit/min supplements.  does your research cover that?


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## Rollin (4 February 2011)

Gaz_Lincs said:



			Hi everyone.

I have just bought a 8-9 month old foal, and it is the first 'youngster' that i have had, so i want to do everything right, give him the best upbringing possible, and to make sure that he is handled well, respects people, can be caught, etc...

So, with that in mind, i would like some advice and any tips/recommendations on things i can do with him, to get him used to people, and getting him used to being brought up the way i want him to.

He is a Welsh Section D, 9 month old colt, lovely horse, quite cheeky at the moment, but has had limited handling so far in his life, apart from being brought in a few times for a bit of food and some hay (this was with his breeder).

He does seem to pick his feet up when i was him too. He is a little bit 'nippy' at the moment, when i am near him and picking his feet up, he does seem to like eating my back and giving me a good groom.

He has been in the stable since he arrived. I have put him in the yard for a little bit, not a massive area, but big enough for him to have a stretch and just have a look around. However, obviously, i dont want to put him out in the field yet, as he was a bit difficult to catch in the yard yesterday, and that isnt even a big area.

So, any advice would be fantastic on what you feel are excellent methods of training a horse that is my horse's age.

Many thanks everyone.
		
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I have experience of only one colt, my home-bred Shagya Arab.  He was weaned at 9 months and then put back with his dam, who went away to stud when he was a year old.  He spent the next year with his mother and another i/f mare and was no trouble at all.

He is now 3 and lives with two geldings but can talk to his mum over the electric fence.  He is gobby rather than 'nippy', he is still very playful but not a nasty bone in his body.

My CB stallion 17hh and 5 yo is a pussy cat.  He too just has an electric fence between himself and the mares.  He is much happier this way and is as gentle as can be with the foals who all come and talk to him each day.


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## hayinamanger (4 February 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			30 years ago, the general view was that gelding a colt would slow its growth.  Now the opposite is the view and my personal belief - based on considerable experience of watching both colts and geldings grow up (including full siblings) - that gelding a colt young will get it growing taller than it would if it was left entire.  Leaving a colt entire, though, will develop a better topline - particularly in the neck!

I'm not aware of any studies - and it would be a hard one to set up as so many different factors influence growth.  Early foals almost always end up bigger than late foals.  Foals from maiden mares will normally not be as big as the same mare's later foals, etc. etc.
		
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^^^^^^^^^^^

Totally agree with JG

I have bred quite a few colts over the years - 20-30 years ago we cut them as yearlings and boy, what a pain they were by then - the last 3 castrates, now 6-8 year olds, were done at 6-12 weeks, these have all grown bigger than I was expecting and they are stonking chaps with lovely temperaments, no biting.

I bought a 2 yr old last spring, he had just been cut and he's still inclined to bite.

I have a 8-9m colt who came to me with little handling in Nov, he's great now but is a PITA biting.  Was waitng until the spring to cut him but may do it sooner as I want to avoid the biting habit.


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## Dexter (4 February 2011)

AFAIK based on a study I read a few years back but cant find now! Keeping them entire makes them smaller but chunkier. I think running them on until 4yrs old is something thats done to IDs sometimes in order to get show cobs.


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## jrp204 (4 February 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			30 years ago, the general view was that gelding a colt would slow its growth.  Now the opposite is the view and my personal belief - based on considerable experience of watching both colts and geldings grow up (including full siblings) - that gelding a colt young will get it growing taller than it would if it was left entire.  Leaving a colt entire, though, will develop a better topline - particularly in the neck!

From a purely biological point of view, growth in an entire animal will be directed to the areas that will attract a mate both physically and behaviourally. Removing the hormones by castration will direct energy (growth) to other areas such as growing taller.
		
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## scotia2k7 (8 February 2011)

VoyPor said:



			Is that true?!? i have always thought it directly influenced it........
		
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Agree with prior post -....leaving entire plays little part in destined height/growth - but can provide "presence" - which at times may appear to "bulk up" the horse.  More likely to influence is bloodline/breed, dam/sire growth & adult attained height, correct & balanced (consistent with bred) feeding, varied grazing (for muscle development) & veterinary care.

scotia


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## scotia2k7 (8 February 2011)

...my boy is entire & rising 3yrs, was natural wean over electric tape from mum & surrounded on three sides by seasoning mares visiting the stud.  Still stabled next door to mum & grazes over the electric from her too.  My experience in Germany was that every second horse was a stallion standing next to a mare, so Ive never really thought much about it if the horse in question is happy, content & not causing fuss to the mares (or fencing) I sometimes wonder if mine is generally ignores his mum simply because the original bond was never completely severed & she still tells him off (thats just my human view of course!)

scotia


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## tristar (9 February 2011)

i always thought that growth potential,  was preprogrammed by the genes.

I would handle him daily teach all the little manners like standing still, moving over, being tied up, walking through gateways without trampling prople, and under no circumstances would i ever leave an entire colt to his own devices to run wild, i would turn him out with taller older, perhaps two year old who will teach him some horse manners and respect for others, this is the key with entires, they have to obey, this can be done by bringing him in every night, they love routine and thrive on the attention, they can be very devoted to their handlers, take him out for walks, take him to local shows, just to see the world so he knows from a young age what its all about, he is like any other horse but will need 20 per cent more attention because he is entire, teach him what electric fences are, make sure he knows and respects them, then he can live happily alongside othe horses male and female, with a 6 foot gap and two electric fences the one next to him about 5ft 6 so he need never be locked up and lonely and can go out every day, and always wear a hat and gloves when handling him as he becomes aware of his manhood.


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## Clava (9 February 2011)

jrp204 said:





JanetGeorge said:



			30 years ago, the general view was that gelding a colt would slow its growth.  Now the opposite is the view and my personal belief - based on considerable experience of watching both colts and geldings grow up (including full siblings) - that gelding a colt young will get it growing taller than it would if it was left entire.  Leaving a colt entire, though, will develop a better topline - particularly in the neck!

From a purely biological point of view, growth in an entire animal will be directed to the areas that will attract a mate both physically and behaviourally. Removing the hormones by castration will direct energy (growth) to other areas such as growing taller.
		
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This is what I believed, gelding produces a taller animal. I do remember seeing comparison photos as a probably unscientific study.
		
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## TJP (9 February 2011)

Gaz_Lincs said:



			As above, a 11 year old gelding Thoroughbred. He wont be staying in for the 3 weeks, he will be out in the yard with the Shetland Pony on a night, and in during the day, or in at night, out during the day.
		
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Hi, good luck with you little chap. I have a colt who has ran with mares over the winter. I had to remove him from them last week as he has suddenly decided he is a big boy lol. He has started biting them and displaying very stallion like behaviour. One of the mares has several bare bits to show for his attentions!  Just keep an eye when you put him out with the sheltie in case he realises spring is on the way. We have our 'big boy' out with a retired gelding now, amazingly he is quickly becoming boss at a very young age. He will be out with other youngsters next month hopefully - it's the best thing for him in my opinion. Our boy is brought in occasionally and reminded how to 
Lead/ stand in halter, get groomed, load on trailer, pick up feet, copper supp and wormer when required. Then back into the field and left to be a foal. 
Hope all goes well


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## Spring Feather (9 February 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			30 years ago, the general view was that gelding a colt would slow its growth.  Now the opposite is the view and my personal belief - based on considerable experience of watching both colts and geldings grow up (including full siblings) - that gelding a colt young will get it growing taller than it would if it was left entire.  Leaving a colt entire, though, will develop a better topline - particularly in the neck!

I'm not aware of any studies - and it would be a hard one to set up as so many different factors influence growth.  Early foals almost always end up bigger than late foals.  Foals from maiden mares will normally not be as big as the same mare's later foals, etc. etc.
		
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I completely agree with Janet and those have been my findings also.  Colts that I have had gelded early have definitely grown taller than I was expecting and colts I've left entire for longer have not grown as tall but have been far bulkier than their counterparts who were gelded earlier.

I'm sure some establishment did do a study on this, maybe 15/20 years ago if memory serves me right??  Will have a search through my memorybanks and see if I can remember who it was who did it.  There's certainly been some American vet studies which have come out with the same findings as us.

Anyhow, back to the OP.  I would handle for short periods of time, regularly.  I don't believe in turning youngsters out in fields, not to have human contact until they're brought in to start work at 4, but others may and that's their prerogative.  I would be doing everything in hand that you would with a grown horse; groom, pick feet, teach tying, wash down etc. so that when you do come to breaking the horse for ridden work, nothing will come as a shock to him.  Unless you are seriously planning to use him as a breeding stallion I would castrate him.  I would not allow nipping - get an empty Jif lemon and fill it with water, and squirt him when he tries this.  Nipping very often leads to biting, not what you want.  Most importantly be sensible with him, don't treat him like a child, be fair and firm and enjoy him.


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## NicolaC (10 February 2011)

Good luck with your boy. I now have 3 welsh boys. 2 Gelding's and a 8 month old colt. My 6 year old section A was gelded at 18 months and he is now a stonking Section A. My section D was also gelded at 18 months old and now stands 15hh. He was only supposed to make 14.2hh. Most of his brothers that his breeder bred has been kept entire and non have made his height. Even his breeder doesnt know where he got his height from. My colt foal will be kept entire and will be used for stud duties. He is being kept entire because he has fantastic breeding and because he is Cremello and has been tested negative for the grey gene. Both of the other two have got fantastic breeding but even though the D had the best temperament even as a colt there was no way I was keeping him entire. It is better to have a top class gelding than to have a middle class stallion. xx

The best thing to do with him if you do not intend to show him would be chuck him out with other yearlings and let him be a horse. Handle him daily so he know respect but just let him be a baby. xxx


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## Touchwood (10 February 2011)

Agree with Janet 100%.  In our experience leaving entire improves muscle development and topline but inhibits height.


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