# Mixing the foal with the herd



## debbiejowett (12 July 2009)

Sorry another question, I've been saving them up.  I bought my mare in Jan and didn't know she was in foal until about 3 weeks before she gave birth (I had suspicions).  My yard owner (old lady, no knowledge of horses at all) said don't worry I will accommodate new baby and save a stable for when you are ready which she has done.  They then gave me a whole field next door to the herd for mare to be alone (on the advise of vet) while she waited to give birth.  Foal is now four weeks old and yard manager (jumped up chap with 2 horses on yard) said to me the other day,, "when are you mixing these two back up again with the herd dont think you are keeping this field to yourself while our 3 are in the other field".  I said I wasn't comfortable mixing them back up (there are two of the herd that my mare can't stand and she keeps way out of their way) and offered to pay for some fencing to put mine at the back of the big field and he said no, he wants to rest one field while we use another.  When is it ok to put them back in the herd or shall I stick to my guns and get some elecric fencing to put mine at the back of the field on their own?


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## Bennions Field (12 July 2009)

best advice I can give is dont do it!!  mares and foals need to be with other mares and foals but not with a whole bunch of horses on a livery yard.  if you can try and keep them on their own or perhaps consider a move to another yard.  If your mare didnt get on with a couple of them before she had her foal, she will possibly have more problems again, and the foal may get hurt in the process of introductions.  I really wouldnt want to go down that route if they were mine.  Hope you manage to sort things out, and best of luck sorting things out.


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## Amymay (12 July 2009)

Don't do it.  You will end up with either a very badly damaged foal or no foal at all.


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## debbiejowett (12 July 2009)

mmmm thanks for that I really was not comfortable mixing them but wondered if it was just me being inexperienced and paranoid, will tell them I am not mixing and if they dont let me fence off a piece of field will look elsewhere.  Will add another thread asking if anyone knows anywhere suitable in the Derby area.


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## debbiejowett (12 July 2009)

Sorry just another question, when can it mix with others?  Can it mix when it is weaned at six months?


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## welshied (12 July 2009)

Agree they will all target the foal as the weaker one and he will end up either really hurt or you will lose him all together


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## magic104 (12 July 2009)

My situation was different to yours because my mares had grazed with the very small herd previous to foaling.  The 1st time the foal was about 3mths, but both had grazed in the paddock next door.  He was with his dam &amp; 2 other mares, weaning for him was taken out of my hands as he had to go on box rest about a mth b4 I would have weaned him.  The 2nd same thing, except the foal went back in with the then yearling &amp; another mare only a mth later.  The difference here was the mare is the alfpha mare &amp; she was completly relaxed as neither the yearling nor the other mare were a threat.  In fact when her foal was about 3/4mths they were happy to be parted for short periods while she was being ridden.  

Each circumstances are different as are the animals involved.  I dont think in your circumstances I would feel happy putting them back.  Go to the YO &amp; explain how dangerous this could be &amp; get permission to fence off part of the field.  There are probably too many adult horses for the foal to cope with &amp; if you are forced to then I would insist it be 1 at a time.  The less dominate 1st, but I still feel this is asking for trouble.  I should point out that none of mine are shod behind &amp; if u have seen the damage that can be done without shoes!!  I would also be insisting that it is not done before the foal is 4mths old.  Good luck, as it maybe a case of moving yard.


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## Amymay (12 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry just another question, when can it mix with others?  Can it mix when it is weaned at six months? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope.  

I'd be looking for some specialist livery in your shoes.  It's what I did when my mare was put in foal - it's simply too complicated at 'normal' livery yards......


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## S_N (12 July 2009)

There is no cut and dried YES and NO answer to your question.  It depends entirely on the situation and every situation is different.  If I were in your shoes, I would be looking for a new yard PDQ tbth!  Your YM has little to no understanding of the requirements of a mare and young foal.  

Initially a mare and foal should ideally (unless foaling outside IN the 'herd' environment) have individual turnout.  From a couple of weeks old a strong/healthy mare and foal can be introduced to another mare and foal, with the foal ideally of a similar age.  If this is not an option then IMO the foal should absolutely NOT be younger than 3 or even 4 months old before introducing another herd member, unless you a) know the new member extremely well (I'm thinking retired broodmare/other older offspring of the mare currently with foal at foot/older horse you have owned for donkey's years) but even then you are taking a gamble!  and b) they should have been over the fence from each other for some time.

Last year my mare and foal had the mare's then 2yo gelding and my 27yo cob over the fence from about the age of 5/6 weeks and by 3 months the foal and the 2yo were attempting to play alongside the fence.  It was a natural progression for them all to go out together eventually, which I did by introducing the 2yo first - the kids had an absolute ball!  It was SOOOOOO exciting to be able to play together!!  The mare was not really that grumpy with the 2yo and only when he got in her space.  It didn't take long for her to appreciate having someone else about who would actually play with her foal and my cob was just pleased to be left alone for a few months on the other side of the fence LOL!  Before moving them over to their winter grazing, they were all introduced together and they wintered out in a big 8 acre field as a heard of 4, with weaning taking place in the new year - weanling had the cob for company and all were extremely chilled about it.

Now that situation was not ideal, but they were all my horses, so a risk for me to take!  NONE of them had hind shoes on, which is actually a big thing for me - I will NOT turn horses out together that are shod behind!  Irrespective of age, but even more important when mixing older and younger horses IMHO.

I really do think that you need to find another yard or even a stud to move your mare and foal to.  It's really not easy, especially as this has all been foisted on you.  Out of interest, just reading your worming the foal thread - what book are you reading as guidance?


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## henryhorn (12 July 2009)

We are worried when putting ours out for the first time because our situation is normally they foa loutside within the broodmare herd and so the foal is accepted, but this year two foaled inside and both had to be introduced.
They did get chased round for a couple of minutes, but then took themselves off to a distant part of the field and stayed well away.
I would be unhappy about putting your pair out with horses with shoes on, and ones that perhaps may have never been used to foals, so go and see the yard owner , be tearful if necessary (!) and ask for some sort of advice from her, that then puts her in the position of suggesting a solution not the YM.
I would offer to pay extra for single use and fencing, but you really are risking the foal turning it out with the others.


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## debbiejowett (12 July 2009)

Am reading, Training your Foal and From Birth to Backing, had another look at the section on head collars and it talks about the importance of introducing them for safety purposes (to catch for vet etc if needed).  But it doesn't give guidance for what age only to take it steady and there will be less of a problem.  I have also read a thread on here where one owner said she never used one until foalie was 5 months old and she used it for the first time with no hassle.


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## debbiejowett (12 July 2009)

Why cant you mix at 6 months? I thought that when you weaned this was the time to separate and sell the foal if that is the intention.


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## S_N (12 July 2009)

LOL!  Well, a foal born in a Thoroughbred Stud will generally have a headcollar on from day one, though often removed at night when brought in to the stable.  However, this does not mean that the foal is LED OFF the headcollar at this age.  The use of the tea towel, as you have been doing, around the neck is a good way in the early days.  I would never let a foal wander around loose, having worked on studs where this was the general practice and oh my goodness, talk about hassle when the little blighters are no longer so little and are more independent and won't follow - it can also make them more resistant to handling, the longer it is left IME.


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## Amymay (12 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Why cant you mix at 6 months? I thought that when you weaned this was the time to separate and sell the foal if that is the intention.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Because will automatically be bottom of the pecking order - can be mercillesly bullied, which in turn can lead to some pretty nasty accidents, if not worse.


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## teb (12 July 2009)

You've had very good advice here and I would strongly urge you not to mix your mare and foal. Move to another yard ASAP. I think I've shared my horror story already that involved another mare with a foal who killed another foal, which is crazy all together, but never would I do mixed company. Or my stepmom who was helicopetered to hospital after her foal got in with the gelding and she threw herself on top of the foal to save him which she did. 

Head collar training I start usually at a week old, but I never pull on head collar and walk with my arm around them. But I teach them how to have said head collar on and off, not how to wear it! I don't leave head collars on anything including foals. If they need come in, they stand patiently to have it put on. 

As far as weaning at 6 months, your foal is still vunerable to older horses. He will have just lost his only companion and safety. He's going to be confused and needs to be with someone who will look after him or share in his plight, as in others that are going through the same thing. 

Terri


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## S_N (12 July 2009)

What I think AmyMay means is that it is better to introduce your weaning partner(s) to the foal whilst the foal is still with it's dam.  That way the foal still has the security of Mum to run to and has Mum to protect it if necessary.


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## Amymay (12 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
What I think AmyMay means is that it is better to introduce your weaning partner(s) to the foal whilst the foal is still with it's dam.  That way the foal still has the security of Mum to run to and has Mum to protect it if necessary. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks S_N


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## Daisychain (12 July 2009)

My mare had her foal 3wks ago, she is now back in with 2 geldings but they have always been very soft natured, i have had no problems putting them all back in together, the mare is still very protective and does tend to sheild the foal off them, but tbh they are not really very interested.


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## luckilotti (12 July 2009)

i think you should maybe be looking around for another yard. 

I mixed my mare and foal back with her original herd after about 6 weeks but, my mare grew up with the same herd and well, TBH, most of them are older and not bothered by much, it worked really well for me BUT.... 
they are livery horses which yours would be mixing with.  Dont do it please.  Some will def have shoes on i imagine, they will come and go out of the field on a regular basis, and what happens if a new horse comes on?  will it just be turnout out without you knowing???

As a YO, i would never expect or ask a livery to turn her mare and foal out with others in a main field!  Your YO really should not be expecting you to!


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## imafluffybunny (13 July 2009)

I wont keep my horses in big groups on livery yards, I have 4 horses who I will keep together but they are all very good natured and all get on very well. I kept my mare and foal seperate for 6 weeks then I put them with the others, I am lucky I have my own field and when weaning the foal was kept with a pony she knew really well. 
It really isn't worth the risk having a foal in with a big group of horses, idealy you want a quiet gelding who will become the foals friend at weaning time.


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## tikino (13 July 2009)

i would say don't put your mare and foal out with herd. why not try and see if they are any studs local that you could graze mare and foal with and wean foal there as well and then it will have plenty of friends to play with and also keeps its friewnds at weaning as most studs have exellent controled weanings


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## vicijp (13 July 2009)

From 2 weeks old onwards my mares and foals run with a herd of fillies/geldings/whatevers(up to 10 others) and have never had any problems. In fact, I think it socialises them really well.


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## magic104 (13 July 2009)

vicijp doing that wont work for everyone.   It depends on the dynamics of the herd set up.  Also if these are riding horses there is a good chance they are shod behind, well sorry foals &amp; hind shoes are not a good combination.  If an unshod 12.2hh pony can break the leg of a 16.3hh hunter...  Also I think in this situation a 2wk foal is far too young.  If the dam stresses out the foal is going to be too small &amp; weak to keep out of trouble.  I have seen a foal run into the ground, because the alpha horse wanted to see the new comer &amp; the dam was having none of it.  They could not catch any of them until the foal was exhausted.  I have also seen a barren mare steal the foal.  Of course this may not happen, but why take the chance.  Mine are introduced back in from a month old, but I know all of them &amp; how they fit into the herd.  I also have the advantage of them grazing the other side of the fence so they still have contact.  And when it is done it is as individuals entering into the dam &amp; foals paddock.


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## vicijp (13 July 2009)

In my experience the mare sees everyone off once and that is the end of it. I should have mentioned I never turn any hroses out together with shoes on.


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## magic104 (13 July 2009)

All I can say is you have been lucky then, because having a foal does not increase a mares higher archy.  Yes she will protect her foal but if she does not hold status then it may end in a fight because before the foal she would have given ground, &amp; by giving ground it does not become phyiscal.  Once hooves start flying the foal is at risk.


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## Clodagh (13 July 2009)

I'm hoping as my mare is definately alpha female she will be OK with my other two pony mares. (And all will have their back shoes off)
Its an interesting thread though and its good to hear other peoples views.


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## vicijp (13 July 2009)

I would not put it down to luck. The one mare I have foaled this year has been bullied for years and been a loner in the field. Once she was out with the foal she now actually has freinds. Granted, the other mare is just a hard b#tch!
We've always done it, for 20 years or so and I don't think there is any more risk than putting any new horse out.


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## magic104 (13 July 2009)

Your situation is not much different to mine.  I would not have thought you would have an issue with the 2 other mares.  This sounds like a mixed yard where the dam has had issues with at least one of the other horses.  Also it is not clear how many other horses are involved, sounds like 3.  If they are unshod, I would just introduce them 1 at a time leave them to settle then add the next a week or so later.  I have never had a problem with them mixing &amp; I dont think it is a bad idea, but mine are a herd.  This mare is also new to the yard &amp; is still working out the pecking order which can take months.  To introduce her to all of these horses in one go is risking injury.  It needs to be a gradual thing, as I said each set of circumstances are different &amp; therefore needs to be treated case by case.


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## magic104 (13 July 2009)

Tell that to the countless owners who have suffered vet bills because of kicks or being chased through fencing!


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## teb (13 July 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
In my experience the mare sees everyone off once and that is the end of it. I should have mentioned I never turn any hroses out together with shoes on. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Really. Last year the mare that killed my foal, she was the bottom of the pecking order in the group. She was always protected by my Alpha mare. Stella may be the Alpha but she is also kind and looks after all the Newbie moms, yet she never puts up with crap from anyone. 

So imagine my surprise when Annia killed Stella's foal. This was after STella hunted  her off twice. We stepped in to get Stella and baby, but too late. I'll never forget the look in my Alpha mare's eyes - Confusion. So just because the herd dynamics seem concrete, I will NEVER trust herd dynamics again. 

By the way no shoes on anyone and my filly foal's leg was broke clean in half above the hock. I don't think it makes a difference shoes or not. 

Look, I am insanely jealous of you all that have one big field and everyone lives in harmony. My horse groups are always small now and if I see any bullying, I make switches. I make sure everyone has company and all are socialized, but I can't take chances anymore.

Terri


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## TarrSteps (14 July 2009)

A large-ish, stable herd (horses that all know each other and there is little movement in and out), in a large area, with an established routine and social heirachy, where there is no competition for resources, is simply not the same as a few horses in a livery situation where not only do you not have any control over the other horses, you don't have any control over the other people involved.

I'm sure vicijp's situation works in part because she is obviously a good horseman who "manages" the situation, perhaps without even knowing she's doing it, as it's so second nature.  Also, a large group in a large area naturally splits up into small pairings or sub-herds, which provides a much less socially tense situation than a few horses thrown together because it's convenient to the people involved.

The OPs situation seems totally different, which is what's worrying people.  It's fairly obvious the people she's with have little or no idea what a foal needs or what might constitute a "danger sign".  As such, the risk of disaster is high and with a foal especially, it can only take a second to have it all go very wrong.

BEST for the foal is to be with other mares and foals/young horses and perhaps a few reliable older horses in a suitable setting.  The most "natural" way.  I'm not usually a huge fan of "natural" at all costs but we are not talking about keeping a competition horse here, we are talking about social development and safety for a foal.  Of course, many people do it differently, especially with AI now the defacto breeding method, but it's my personal experience, having dealt with many horses from different backgrounds, that this is the situation most likely to yield a mentally and physically optimum foal.

It would also, for the OP, provied peace of mind.  It doesn't sound like the situation is going to get easier as the foal grows.


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