# Why does everyone love Edward Gal so much?!



## Cheiro1 (15 August 2015)

I keep seeing posts about Totilas and how much "better" Edward Gal was as a rider.

There is such an uproar over Rollkur yet people love Gal.

This was him training in Aachen:

https://www.facebook.com/DeineStimm...648053846246/1077025372308508/?type=1&theater

Enlighten my why everyone loves him so much?!!


----------



## TheMule (15 August 2015)

What was he eliminated for in the special today?
I admire him as a test rider but he is a butcher in his training methods and not a man I can respect


----------



## splashgirl45 (15 August 2015)

I certainly don't, but have to admit he is an amazing rider even though I don't agree with the overbent, tense way the horses go..  not many people would be able to ride undercover through a test like he can, but I find it uncomfortable to watch...


----------



## splashgirl45 (15 August 2015)

TheMule said:



			What was he eliminated for in the special today?
I admire him as a test rider but he is a butcher in his training methods and not a man I can respect
		
Click to expand...

 blood in the mouth, what a surprise!!!!!


----------



## TheMule (15 August 2015)

splashgirl45 said:



			blood in the mouth, what a surprise!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Ah. Quite!!


----------



## tallyho! (15 August 2015)

I don't know but dressage is a really ugly sport now. 

Wished CH, CD etc had won. The judging was shameful.


----------



## Booboos (15 August 2015)

He has an amazing position that remains correct no matter what the horse does.have you seen the video of the two dressage trainers discussing the riding styles of Gal and Rath? There is some inspiring riding by Gal there. In one sequence a young horse goes a bit bonkers during a test and Gal just stays in exactly the correct position and continues with the next movement. He looks transposed from another shot because the horse's bronc king and throwing himself around doesn't affect him at all.

Oh and he trained a rather famous horse with whom he broke several world records.


----------



## Brummyrat (15 August 2015)

Is that on Youtube Booboos?


----------



## Cheiro1 (15 August 2015)

Booboos said:



			He has an amazing position that remains correct no matter what the horse does.have you seen the video of the two dressage trainers discussing the riding styles of Gal and Rath? There is some inspiring riding by Gal there. In one sequence a young horse goes a bit bonkers during a test and Gal just stays in exactly the correct position and continues with the next movement. He looks transposed from another shot because the horse's bronc king and throwing himself around doesn't affect him at all.

Oh and he trained a rather famous horse with whom he broke several world records.
		
Click to expand...

He trained him in the same way as the link I attached. I don't care what records he broke, it's cruel! Totilas was never allowed to work in a relaxed free manner in the same way Valegro or Carl's horses can. That's worthy of records. levering a horses head to it's chest is not talent.


----------



## noname (15 August 2015)

Short answer, the dressage public are completely fickle!!! There is no acceptable reason for a training method to be ok with one rider and not with another rider! Although any training method used incorrectly is never acceptable! 

Training methods aside, removing the dreded 'R' word from the equation, Gal is an incredible rider and probably has trained as many horses to GP as Carl and definately more than Charlotte!


----------



## Goldenstar (15 August 2015)

EG is just the most incredible rider .
I remember him riding a horse called Lingh I had never seen a rider with such empathy and ability to defuse tension .
I don't love him I love MrGS I love my dogs my parents etc etc I don't love EG I have never met him  but I admire his talents enormously .


----------



## elliefiz (16 August 2015)

I don't see what talent there lies in abusing a horse in the pursuit of competition success. The photos of Undercover being ridden in RK are disgusting. And these photos to emerge despite claims Gal doesn't use those methods anymore because he recognised the error of his ways. The reason Totolias is now a crock is due to the unsavoury training methods used to produce him. He is so far removed from the brilliant young horse he once was. Unfortunately he was developed into a circus freak with a big elaborate front end and a way of going that in no way conformed to what dressage is actually supposed to achieve. I don't understand how that makes someone a brilliant or talented rider but then I tend to applaud real horsemen and women who put the welfare of the animal first and foremost. Having looked through 40 photos of him riding Undercover in RK in Aachen I fail to see what is admirable about his "amazing seat". Using brute strength to brace yourself against a horse's mouth is nothing to be praised for.


----------



## Barnacle (16 August 2015)

I don't get it either OP! I think EG somehow escaped the whole rollkur thing... Not sure how since there are countless clips of him using it - but I guess that's the Totilas effect. Those of us who love Dressage, perhaps wanted to make excuses for the man at the top of the sport at the time... Everyone was so upset that horse was sold and so personally and socially invested in the face-saving idea that the new rider was to blame for ruining the "magic", they shifted all their anger onto Rath - and Gal got praised to the heavens. 

He can certainly sit on a horse - and loving and appreciating something are not the same. In any case I don't think a lot of people "love" him... But a lot of people certainly make excuses for him.


----------



## atlantis (16 August 2015)

I do admire his seat. However that makes his riding even more disgusting. His seat is the envy of many and yet he chooses to ride these horses in this abhorrent way. He is renowned for taking these super tense horses and guiding them through the tests, but why are they super tense. Because of the life they lead!!! 

Carl's hot horses live out (I believe Barny does) and yet he rides with softness and harmony... Valero is such a happy athlete. How undercover and Valegro could score so closely in the GP is beyond me. The two tests were polls apart. Whilst the judges reward such tense manufactured movements they will continue to do well. 

However painful the photos of Gal are to see... The positive is how many times I have seen these images shared and Gal slated on FB in such a short space of time. Just a few hours... Public opinion is so negative now there MUST be change soon!!! There has to be!!!!!!!!!! Surely!!!!!!!! Please!!!!!!! For the horse!!!!!!!! 

These games have been different. The uproar on social media about Totilas (and i blame Gal for the life that poor horse has had to live) and now the Gal pictures must count for something!!!!!


----------



## silv (16 August 2015)

elliefiz said:



			I don't see what talent there lies in abusing a horse in the pursuit of competition success. The photos of Undercover being ridden in RK are disgusting. And these photos to emerge despite claims Gal doesn't use those methods anymore because he recognised the error of his ways. The reason Totolias is now a crock is due to the unsavoury training methods used to produce him. He is so far removed from the brilliant young horse he once was. Unfortunately he was developed into a circus freak with a big elaborate front end and a way of going that in no way conformed to what dressage is actually supposed to achieve. I don't understand how that makes someone a brilliant or talented rider but then I tend to applaud real horsemen and women who put the welfare of the animal first and foremost. Having looked through 40 photos of him riding Undercover in RK in Aachen I fail to see what is admirable about his "amazing seat". Using brute strength to brace yourself against a horse's mouth is nothing to be praised for.
		
Click to expand...

So True!


----------



## Lyle (16 August 2015)

I, too, think Gal is an excellent rider, with enormous talent. However, I feel he's using his talent and genius power for evil, instead of good


----------



## elliefiz (16 August 2015)

Apparently Kathrin Glock, Gal's patron, is on the war path and threatening to sue a lot of people for slander as a result of the photos. How can she defend cruelty like that?!


----------



## ycbm (16 August 2015)

Using brute strength to brace yourself against a horse's mouth is nothing to be praised for
		
Click to expand...

It is impossible to sit that still on a horse if you are braced anywhere. To appear to sit that still on a moving animal, never mind one that moves as big as an international GP horse, you have to be in constant fluid motion yourself. 

I would kill to have a seat like his. His base riding skill is absolutely supreme. It's a shame he uses it the way he does in training


----------



## YasandCrystal (16 August 2015)

It's likely due to Gal's cruel training methods that Totilas is a broken horse now. Nothing admiral about using rollkur, it's just ridden abuse.


----------



## Simon Battram (16 August 2015)

elliefiz said:



			The reason Totolias is now a crock is due to the unsavoury training methods used to produce him.
		
Click to expand...

And your proof of this is?.......I mean that to make a catagoric statement like this you do have catagoric proof don't you......


----------



## Simon Battram (16 August 2015)

atlantis said:



			He is renowned for taking these super tense horses and guiding them through the tests, but why are they super tense. Because of the life they lead!!!
		
Click to expand...

Again another catagoric statement made without catagoric evidence and is simply flawed.

Barney lives out and is ridden by Carl whom we all know is sympathetic and an excellent rider and trainer. However the fact remains that Barney is still super hot. Escapado (Peanuts) was the same. By your logic the reason these horses are tense is due to Carls riding....


----------



## Goldenstar (16 August 2015)

These horses are hot because they are bred to be so they need to because of the demands of the sport at the highest level .
Then because EG has a proven record with the ones at the hottest end of the scale they tend to gravitate to wards him .
Just like if you a pro know to be good with nappy horses you tend to get sent them .
Uncover always looks one step off up rideable to me .
Turnout is a very british thing many many big yards on the continent have no turnout it's normal in many places there at most levels for horses to be in .
I got sent a horse from Switzerland to ride .
He was 8 and Dutch when we researched his past he had never lived in a field even as a youngster he had no idea how to graze would not stay in a field without a human with him ,he did not know what to do he thought he was supposed to roll and come back to you and that was that .
The sad thing is that I fear there's no retirement in a safe paddock on the cards for Totilas It's likely to be indoor living at a breeding barn .
I hope I am wrong and I hope he has a kind groom to care for him .


----------



## elliefiz (16 August 2015)

Simon Battram said:



			And your proof of this is?.......I mean that to make a catagoric statement like this you do have catagoric proof don't you......
		
Click to expand...

i think this video sums it up perfectly.

http://epona.tv/dressage-astray-part-one

Someone I personally really respect as a trainer and a vet. As he says, a tense athlete destroys its body. Plenty of scientific studies out there, carried out by people far more knowledgeable than me, that show how certain training methods cause long term damage to a horse's body. Jean Luc Cornille is another great trainer and very successful rider who uses scientific research to disprove the old traditional methods of teaching dressage movements to horses which he believes are the root cause of lameness issues in horses. I could quote verses of what he has written but it would be easier to provide details of his website which is called Science of motion and is absolutely fascinating and eye opening.


----------



## SpringArising (16 August 2015)

What I find interesting is how people write about these riders like they know them personally. 

No one on here knows what goes on behind the closed doors in their yards and to be honest, I really don't think I want to know. Dressage is getting more & more tense, ugly and competitive and it's the horses who are suffering. 

I don't enjoy watching Charlotte on Valegro (although given how much the country completely adores her I'd imagine I'm the only one who feels like that). There's no way I'd be able to ride one half of these horses, but something really needs to change with regards to what we class as acceptable training and riding.


----------



## Clare85 (16 August 2015)

Simon Battram said:



			Again another catagoric statement made without catagoric evidence and is simply flawed.

Barney lives out and is ridden by Carl whom we all know is sympathetic and an excellent rider and trainer. However the fact remains that Barney is still super hot. Escapado (Peanuts) was the same. By your logic the reason these horses are tense is due to Carls riding....
		
Click to expand...

IMO there is a difference between hot and tense. Carl deals with hot in a very sympathetic way to try to release the tension to get the best out of the horse. Gal deals with it differently - almost bottling it so that his horses often look like they're about to explode. I know which one I prefer to watch, which one is more in keeping with what dressage should be about and which one I would prefer to train my horse (if I had the means to own such a horse of course).


----------



## tristar (16 August 2015)

valegro and cd don`t hold my attention at all,my mind wanders to the shopping list  or something else.

carl hester has recently suggested that the fei change the poll being at the highest point to further down the neck being the highest point, to suit the modern competition horse, it might be better to breed horses that have correct conformation capable of working with the poll highest.

Edward gal looks to me as if he sitting  driving a car, not riding a horse the way he sits, I don`t like it and cannot change because I have to be true to what I see.

I wish people would not say, `I could`nt ride those horses` because if that is true, those horses are not properly trained, the whole idea of dressage is to train the horse so it can be ridden by ANY competent rider, and obey the commands and `be on the aids`, if this is not possible the training is fatally flawed on a fundamental level.


----------



## ycbm (16 August 2015)

tristar said:



			I wish people would not say, `I could`nt ride those horses` because if that is true, those horses are not properly trained, the whole idea of dressage is to train the horse so it can be ridden by ANY competent rider, and obey the commands and `be on the aids`, if this is not possible the training is fatally flawed on a fundamental level.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you.

Competitive dressage is about winning the competition, not about training the horse so that any competent rider can ride it.

Those top horses have to be sharper than sharp off the aids, and that level of reaction would scare the averagely competent RC rider to death.


----------



## loobylu (16 August 2015)

I'm with you, I've ridden a few purpose bred horses working at Advanced Medium, and even at that level their movement is so much bigger than my own tb/pony cross types. All fine when going well but if they lost balance trying to stay with them was hard work, and I'm pretty competent as RC level riders go.


----------



## tristar (16 August 2015)

disagree with your definition of competent rider.

my neighbour did not ride for 20 years, is definitely incompetent, he rode round the arena on an advanced horse who is also a hot stallion, the horse just took him for what he was and acted accordingly and listened, and then cantered steadily around a small paddock, it was the first time the horse had ever been ridden by anyone else since he was broken in  ten years ago, the trainer has total confidence in the horse because it is correctly trained.


----------



## ycbm (16 August 2015)

tristar said:



			disagree with your definition of competent rider.

my neighbour did not ride for 20 years, is definitely incompetent, he rode round the arena on an advanced horse who is also a hot stallion, the horse just took him for what he was and acted accordingly and listened, and then cantered steadily around a small paddock, it was the first time the horse had ever been ridden by anyone else since he was broken in  ten years ago, the trainer has total confidence in the horse because it is correctly trained.
		
Click to expand...

One swallow does not make a summer


----------



## lindsayH (16 August 2015)

Without judging anyone's 'behind closed doors' training methods and based purely on watching the tests, I don't like what I see. I haven't watched any pure dressage for a year or so and was hoping it would have improved. The horses look SO tense with such short, overbent necks. The paces look artificial and forced and many of the horses seemed disconnected and lacking engagement. I didn't enjoy watching CDJ as much as I have in the past although the Brits are clearly the best of a bad lot. 
Of course the riders are superbly talented and the horses are stunning but that seems irrelevant to me.
As for EG, he really worked the sob story when Totilas was sold and I think it bought him a lot of public sympathy. I never enjoyed watching that partnership either. Freaky front leg waving craziness.
How on earth does dressage go from this back to the glorious grace and harmony of times past? Do all sports that involve training of animals eventually descend into these extremes as we get closer and closer to 'perfection'?


----------



## lindsayH (16 August 2015)

Just to answer my own question: perhaps we should make them do it without bridles? That would certainly solve some of the welfare issues and test self carriage! It would also be a lot of fun to watch while they got the hang of it


----------



## tristar (16 August 2015)

ycbm.

 true one swallow doesn't make a summer, but he has been accused of being an angel.


----------



## ycbm (17 August 2015)

tristar said:



			ycbm.

he has been accused of being an angel.
		
Click to expand...

I'd agree with that, he sounds gorgeous


----------



## Goldenstar (17 August 2015)

I watched the final few in the kur yesterday .
Valegro looked tired and flat and was lucky to win only his better transitions clinched it Nip and Tuck looked tired the beautiful beauiful horse ridden by the Spanish rider also looked like he was tiring and running on nervous energy .
Only Desperardos looked fresh , and I think he's going to be the one they challenging for that gold in Rio .
Is the format of the championship competition fair to the horses ?


----------



## crabbymare (17 August 2015)

lindsayH said:



			Just to answer my own question: perhaps we should make them do it without bridles? That would certainly solve some of the welfare issues and test self carriage! It would also be a lot of fun to watch while they got the hang of it 

Click to expand...

It would be interesting to have tests where there were no nosebands allowed and snaffle bridles only :-D


----------



## SaffronWelshDragon (17 August 2015)

crabbymare said:



			It would be interesting to have tests where there were no nosebands allowed and snaffle bridles only :-D
		
Click to expand...

'Like'


----------



## SpringArising (17 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Only Desperardos looked fresh , and I think he's going to be the one they challenging for that gold in Rio .
		
Click to expand...

I was angry that Valegro placed over Desperados - even aside from him missing his changes twice, Kristina's test was the best one by far and the horse looked the most relaxed of the lot.


----------



## Under-the-radar (17 August 2015)

SpringArising said:



			I was angry that Valegro placed over Desperados - even aside from him missing his changes twice, Kristina's test was the best one by far and the horse looked the most relaxed of the lot.
		
Click to expand...

I completely agree with this - Valegro and CDJ were below par yesterday and you could see that CDJ was disappointed with the look on her face when she finished.  She knew her performance (her performance - not the fault of the horse) was not as good as it could have been.  

For what its worth, although they had the lowest score in the kur, I quite enjoyed watching the Portugese chap at the beginning.  

To the OP - I don't love Edward Gal.  However, I do have a lot of respect for his ability to sit on incredibly hot horses.  I don't have respect for the training methods he uses and much prefer CH's methods.  Yes - he probably did over play the sob story card when Totilas was sold - that said the horse was never lame when he was with EG but has had a catalogue of lameness issues since he has been with Rath.  Maybe EG laid the foundation for these lameness issues - that is certainly a possibility.  Or maybe, despite the training methods that EG uses, he had found a formula that worked for this horse, which Rath was unable  to replicate and so has had problems ever since.  Lets face it, whether you like EG or not, Totilas has never performed for Rath like he did for Gal.


----------



## spacefaer (17 August 2015)

lindsayH said:



			How on earth does dressage go from this back to the glorious grace and harmony of times past? Do all sports that involve training of animals eventually descend into these extremes as we get closer and closer to 'perfection'?
		
Click to expand...


What glorious grace and harmony?

Dressage is a development of a demonstration of control for warfare and bullfighting. Neither are particularly graceful or harmonious.

With what rose tinted spectacles are you viewing the past? And which past? How far back are you going?


----------



## Fellewell (17 August 2015)

In 2009/10 Totilas was lauded as 'the horse of the century'. He was certainly Gal's horse of a lifetime, small wonder he was upset.

I do feel people are being a little unsporting, judges are looking for more than tempi changes (which have been sticky all comp tbh). Charlotte's test was judged as technically superior. Valegro may be a little sour but I'm sure they're aware of this. Well done all!


----------



## Jo_x (17 August 2015)

lindsayH said:



			Just to answer my own question: perhaps we should make them do it without bridles? That would certainly solve some of the welfare issues and test self carriage! It would also be a lot of fun to watch while they got the hang of it 

Click to expand...

There's a lovely video somewhere of Isabel Werth riding Satchmo bareback in a headcollar, doing some very impressive dressage!

I imagine it would be quite amusing to watch in an atmospheric stadium though!


----------



## Cortez (17 August 2015)

Edward Gal is a superb rider, he produces horse after horse at GP performing in an incredibly athletic, spectacular fashion. I don't like his alleged methods, but his riding is wonderful. I think most of you would be shocked if you could be a fly on the wall at ANY top level dressage training establishment - these kind of performances are not produced by hacking and turnout..............


----------



## puppystitch (17 August 2015)

If showjumpers can do it, I don't see why dressage can't. I'd much rather attempt dressage without a bridle than jumping!

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/feat...anyway-meet-the-bridleless-leather-bit-498319


----------



## Tnavas (17 August 2015)

Cheiro1 said:



			He trained him in the same way as the link I attached. I don't care what records he broke, it's cruel! Totilas was never allowed to work in a relaxed free manner in the same way Valegro or Carl's horses can. That's worthy of records. levering a horses head to it's chest is not talent.
		
Click to expand...

Despite the way he was trained (if this is true) Totilas was one horse that looked calm and relaxed through all his tests, his tail was held in comfort not swishing and twisting like the majority of top level horses.


----------



## tristar (17 August 2015)

I think history shows that dressage, done well, preserves the soundness of the horse and brings out the best in the horse, balance, ability to move effortlessly to the smallest whisper from the rider.

I don`t know about bullfighting but the vaqueros horse`s are a superb example of an animal bred for purpose, and doma vaquera competitions at top level are spellbinding compared to the drudgery performed by some comp dressage horses, but then maybe the Iberian riders are better to start with, more natural in their posture, in a way that aids the horse to perform, its not control, its about not ruining what a good horse can offer naturally, the horse already knows what to do.

I would have loved to see an Iberian rider or a lightweight lady ride totilas and offer him the freedom from the oppressive seat and hands so often seen.


----------



## Booboos (17 August 2015)

Gosh what a load of silly remarks on this thread!

Valegro as a young horse was known to piss off across Addington's arenas, was his tension the result of Charlotte's crappy riding and awful training techniques?

Tortillas was at his peak when trained by EG in rolkur, his problems started when he swapped to MR's classical German style and started to improve when MR got help from Sven. What does that say about rolkur?

EG has said repeatedly that his horses are standardly turned out and hacked but that Totilas went bonkers every time he was turned out so they had to give up. Ever had to change your approach to something you thought was gospel because the horse had not read the same rule book as you?

There are no studies that show the rolkur is harmful to the horse. Setting up a website, posting photos and weeping does not a scientific study make. Please do not even mention DrH (who feels his book sales are rather low and has embarked on a new welfare campaign) as the evidence of his riding (if you can find the photos he so litigious lay had removed from the Internet) is beyond dire.


----------



## shortstuff99 (17 August 2015)

Actually there is, this link also contains links to further research. http://horsetalk.co.nz/2015/08/07/hyperflexion-thumbs-down-equitation-scientists/#axzz3ivIq8Bcp

It states there are currently 42 published studies that focus on the effects of head position with 88% of them saying its detrimental.


----------



## Tnavas (17 August 2015)

Scientific studies have also been proven not to be correct either, take for example the drug Thalidomide, scientists said it was safe to give pregnant women the drug to treat morning sickness, 6 or so months later the first child was born minus limbs! 

A photo is just a split second in time, I'm sure we've all ridden a horse that ducks behind the contact, some more than others.

We can all speculate as to why the horse is now unsound, from a stone bruise to damaged ligaments/tendons or how he was ridden as a youngster, or he could have goofed around in the paddock and slipped. 

We will never know!


----------



## ester (17 August 2015)

Tnavas said:



			Scientific studies have also been proven not to be correct either, take for example the drug Thalidomide, scientists said it was safe to give pregnant women the drug to treat morning sickness, 6 or so months later the first child was born minus limbs! 

A photo is just a split second in time, I'm sure we've all ridden a horse that ducks behind the contact, some more than others.
		
Click to expand...

There's plenty of videos too


----------



## shortstuff99 (17 August 2015)

But Thalidamide IS a safe drug and is still used widely to treat many conditions it's not safe for a developing foetus. 55 studies is a large amount if you saying they are all wrong then how can anything progress?


----------



## Tnavas (17 August 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			But Thalidamide IS a safe drug and is still used widely to treat many conditions it's not safe for a developing foetus. 55 studies is a large amount if you saying they are all wrong then how can anything progress?
		
Click to expand...

Do you eat products with SOY in them? If so read the extensive reports on the negative side of the food


----------



## lindsayH (17 August 2015)

Gawd bless H&H, only here could you start with Edward Gal and end up at Thalidamide 

As for those saying Totilas was more successful with EG and top dressage horses aren't made by turnout/hacking and Rolkur works etc. I don't think anyone's disagreeing with you. That's kind of the point....
It isn't entirely fair to blame the riders when that's what gets results. It remains the case that many horsemen/women find modern top level dressage uncomfortable viewing.

To the person who wanted to know which rose tinted glasses I was wearing: I'm afraid I can't remember where I bought them but you're welcome to borrow them any time 

I don't think there is a lot of rubbish on this thread, I think there have been some well made points from all points of view.


----------



## shortstuff99 (17 August 2015)

Tnavas said:



			Do you eat products with SOY in them? If so read the extensive reports on the negative side of the food
		
Click to expand...

No I don't tend to eat SoY but not being an adolescent boy I'm probably okay to have small amounts! Lol


----------



## Chloe..x (17 August 2015)

I love Edward Gal as the following are quite possibly among the best test I have ever seen 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT6Yn7SLkmQc @ Windsor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEvGcIVoHW4 @ Olympia


----------



## Wheels (18 August 2015)

Booboos said:



			There are no studies that show the rolkur is harmful to the horse.
		
Click to expand...

When I see photos or videos of horses being ridden in rollkur, the look in their eyes tells me all I need to know


----------



## Meowy Catkin (18 August 2015)

This is an interesting article and it does reference a study about nuchal ligament illnesses (sic).

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/why_not.php


----------



## elliefiz (18 August 2015)

I've seen posts here and on social media justifying RK and how EG is the best rider, shouldn't be abused by so called keyboard warriors, etc as its bad for the sport of dressage. It brings to mind the support Lance Armstrong had in cycling when it was first mentioned that he was doping for success. Or the support certain trainers of Tennessee Walking Horses received because their horses were winning so couldn't possibly be treated cruelly. How the people willing to stand up and say I think this is wrong were called trolls and were just jealous, etc, etc. What's the favourite insult thrown at anyone who dares criticise a top rider? Oh yes, who are you to comment, you can't ride that well. In the case of the top dressage riders, no I certainly can't. There's plenty I wouldn't want to ride like either. But I breed dressage horses and it means I have an interest in their welfare and the direction the sport goes in. Would I give one of my horses to EG? Not in a million years. I would rather they stayed in a field and did nothing. The list of riders and trainers I wouldn't let near one of my horses has grown longer due to comments I've seen over the past few days. In some cases it's been very disappointing as I would have thought certain people knew better. Instead of turning on the thousands of people who were horrified by what happened at Aachen, trainers, riders and officials involved in every level at dressage should look at what is blackening the sport and take action. 

I read on Facebook a comment by a noted dressage trainer that people who were criticising EG were just bitter and looking for something to be nasty about because they have no lives of their own. Seriously?? I have 8 mares in foal to top dressage stallions, I have foals on the ground bred to be future dressage stars. If the sport of dressage goes tits up I have no market to sell my horses to. But I also love my horses and worry that they may end up in a situation where they are mistreated in the name of "training". I'm also willing to stand up and be counted if that's what is needed for things to change for the better. 

Are the means justified by the end? If you win at any cost does that mean it's acceptable to treat a living animal badly to achieve YOUR ultimate goal? Its most certainly not a case of ignorance is bliss because it's widely acknowledged that RK is detrimental to a horse's well being. The arrogance of EG, who hasn't even bothered to put out any sort of statement to justify his treatment of the horse is astounding. It seems that he just doesn't care. And that's just really very sad.


----------



## Marydoll (18 August 2015)

Wheels said:



			When I see photos or videos of horses being ridden in rollkur, the look in their eyes tells me all I need to know
		
Click to expand...

I completely agree, and tbh if any rider at top level in dressage isnt capable of riding a horse in lightness and harmony without resorting to training by winching in the head and neck a la rollkur imo they shouldnt be at the top.


----------



## Marydoll (18 August 2015)

elliefiz said:



			I've seen posts here and on social media justifying RK and how EG is the best rider, shouldn't be abused by so called keyboard warriors, etc as its bad for the sport of dressage. It brings to mind the support Lance Armstrong had in cycling when it was first mentioned that he was doping for success. Or the support certain trainers of Tennessee Walking Horses received because their horses were winning so couldn't possibly be treated cruelly. How the people willing to stand up and say I think this is wrong were called trolls and were just jealous, etc, etc. What's the favourite insult thrown at anyone who dares criticise a top rider? Oh yes, who are you to comment, you can't ride that well. In the case of the top dressage riders, no I certainly can't. There's plenty I wouldn't want to ride like either. But I breed dressage horses and it means I have an interest in their welfare and the direction the sport goes in. Would I give one of my horses to EG? Not in a million years. I would rather they stayed in a field and did nothing. The list of riders and trainers I wouldn't let near one of my horses has grown longer due to comments I've seen over the past few days. In some cases it's been very disappointing as I would have thought certain people knew better. Instead of turning on the thousands of people who were horrified by what happened at Aachen, trainers, riders and officials involved in every level at dressage should look at what is blackening the sport and take action. 

I read on Facebook a comment by a noted dressage trainer that people who were criticising EG were just bitter and looking for something to be nasty about because they have no lives of their own. Seriously?? I have 8 mares in foal to top dressage stallions, I have foals on the ground bred to be future dressage stars. If the sport of dressage goes tits up I have no market to sell my horses to. But I also love my horses and worry that they may end up in a situation where they are mistreated in the name of "training". I'm also willing to stand up and be counted if that's what is needed for things to change for the better. 

Are the means justified by the end? If you win at any cost does that mean it's acceptable to treat a living animal badly to achieve YOUR ultimate goal? Its most certainly not a case of ignorance is bliss because it's widely acknowledged that RK is detrimental to a horse's well being. The arrogance of EG, who hasn't even bothered to put out any sort of statement to justify his treatment of the horse is astounding. It seems that he just doesn't care. And that's just really very sad.
		
Click to expand...

This needs a like button to pushed a hundred times over


----------



## Clare85 (18 August 2015)

elliefiz said:



			I've seen posts here and on social media justifying RK and how EG is the best rider, shouldn't be abused by so called keyboard warriors, etc as its bad for the sport of dressage. It brings to mind the support Lance Armstrong had in cycling when it was first mentioned that he was doping for success. Or the support certain trainers of Tennessee Walking Horses received because their horses were winning so couldn't possibly be treated cruelly. How the people willing to stand up and say I think this is wrong were called trolls and were just jealous, etc, etc. What's the favourite insult thrown at anyone who dares criticise a top rider? Oh yes, who are you to comment, you can't ride that well. In the case of the top dressage riders, no I certainly can't. There's plenty I wouldn't want to ride like either. But I breed dressage horses and it means I have an interest in their welfare and the direction the sport goes in. Would I give one of my horses to EG? Not in a million years. I would rather they stayed in a field and did nothing. The list of riders and trainers I wouldn't let near one of my horses has grown longer due to comments I've seen over the past few days. In some cases it's been very disappointing as I would have thought certain people knew better. Instead of turning on the thousands of people who were horrified by what happened at Aachen, trainers, riders and officials involved in every level at dressage should look at what is blackening the sport and take action. 

I read on Facebook a comment by a noted dressage trainer that people who were criticising EG were just bitter and looking for something to be nasty about because they have no lives of their own. Seriously?? I have 8 mares in foal to top dressage stallions, I have foals on the ground bred to be future dressage stars. If the sport of dressage goes tits up I have no market to sell my horses to. But I also love my horses and worry that they may end up in a situation where they are mistreated in the name of "training". I'm also willing to stand up and be counted if that's what is needed for things to change for the better. 

Are the means justified by the end? If you win at any cost does that mean it's acceptable to treat a living animal badly to achieve YOUR ultimate goal? Its most certainly not a case of ignorance is bliss because it's widely acknowledged that RK is detrimental to a horse's well being. The arrogance of EG, who hasn't even bothered to put out any sort of statement to justify his treatment of the horse is astounding. It seems that he just doesn't care. And that's just really very sad.
		
Click to expand...

Like! Amen! I wish all breeders had this attitude.


----------



## Wheels (18 August 2015)

Great post elliefiz


----------



## Doris68 (18 August 2015)

Well said elliefiz - excellent post!


----------



## SaffronWelshDragon (18 August 2015)

elliefiz said:



			I've seen posts here and on social media justifying RK and how EG is the best rider, shouldn't be abused by so called keyboard warriors, etc as its bad for the sport of dressage. It brings to mind the support Lance Armstrong had in cycling when it was first mentioned that he was doping for success. Or the support certain trainers of Tennessee Walking Horses received because their horses were winning so couldn't possibly be treated cruelly. How the people willing to stand up and say I think this is wrong were called trolls and were just jealous, etc, etc. What's the favourite insult thrown at anyone who dares criticise a top rider? Oh yes, who are you to comment, you can't ride that well. In the case of the top dressage riders, no I certainly can't. There's plenty I wouldn't want to ride like either. But I breed dressage horses and it means I have an interest in their welfare and the direction the sport goes in. Would I give one of my horses to EG? Not in a million years. I would rather they stayed in a field and did nothing. The list of riders and trainers I wouldn't let near one of my horses has grown longer due to comments I've seen over the past few days. In some cases it's been very disappointing as I would have thought certain people knew better. Instead of turning on the thousands of people who were horrified by what happened at Aachen, trainers, riders and officials involved in every level at dressage should look at what is blackening the sport and take action. 

I read on Facebook a comment by a noted dressage trainer that people who were criticising EG were just bitter and looking for something to be nasty about because they have no lives of their own. Seriously?? I have 8 mares in foal to top dressage stallions, I have foals on the ground bred to be future dressage stars. If the sport of dressage goes tits up I have no market to sell my horses to. But I also love my horses and worry that they may end up in a situation where they are mistreated in the name of "training". I'm also willing to stand up and be counted if that's what is needed for things to change for the better. 

Are the means justified by the end? If you win at any cost does that mean it's acceptable to treat a living animal badly to achieve YOUR ultimate goal? Its most certainly not a case of ignorance is bliss because it's widely acknowledged that RK is detrimental to a horse's well being. The arrogance of EG, who hasn't even bothered to put out any sort of statement to justify his treatment of the horse is astounding. It seems that he just doesn't care. And that's just really very sad.
		
Click to expand...

Hear hear! I've seen that post on fb and I just can't believe what tosh it is. How can you defend that? Are people just sheep?


----------



## Alec Swan (18 August 2015)

elliefiz said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.., etc, etc. What's the favourite insult thrown at anyone who dares criticise a top rider? Oh yes, who are you to comment, you can't ride that well. In the case of the top dressage riders, no I certainly can't. &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
Click to expand...

No,  and neither can those who judge them in competition,  so does that make the Dressage Judge's opinion of no value?  Being able to judge a horse's viewed demeanour has nothing to do with being able to ride,  and everything to do with being able to see what's before us.

A good post of yours.

Alec.


----------



## Cheiro1 (18 August 2015)

elliefiz said:



			I've seen posts here and on social media justifying RK and how EG is the best rider, shouldn't be abused by so called keyboard warriors, etc as its bad for the sport of dressage. It brings to mind the support Lance Armstrong had in cycling when it was first mentioned that he was doping for success. Or the support certain trainers of Tennessee Walking Horses received because their horses were winning so couldn't possibly be treated cruelly. How the people willing to stand up and say I think this is wrong were called trolls and were just jealous, etc, etc. What's the favourite insult thrown at anyone who dares criticise a top rider? Oh yes, who are you to comment, you can't ride that well. In the case of the top dressage riders, no I certainly can't. There's plenty I wouldn't want to ride like either. But I breed dressage horses and it means I have an interest in their welfare and the direction the sport goes in. Would I give one of my horses to EG? Not in a million years. I would rather they stayed in a field and did nothing. The list of riders and trainers I wouldn't let near one of my horses has grown longer due to comments I've seen over the past few days. In some cases it's been very disappointing as I would have thought certain people knew better. Instead of turning on the thousands of people who were horrified by what happened at Aachen, trainers, riders and officials involved in every level at dressage should look at what is blackening the sport and take action. 

I read on Facebook a comment by a noted dressage trainer that people who were criticising EG were just bitter and looking for something to be nasty about because they have no lives of their own. Seriously?? I have 8 mares in foal to top dressage stallions, I have foals on the ground bred to be future dressage stars. If the sport of dressage goes tits up I have no market to sell my horses to. But I also love my horses and worry that they may end up in a situation where they are mistreated in the name of "training". I'm also willing to stand up and be counted if that's what is needed for things to change for the better. 

Are the means justified by the end? If you win at any cost does that mean it's acceptable to treat a living animal badly to achieve YOUR ultimate goal? Its most certainly not a case of ignorance is bliss because it's widely acknowledged that RK is detrimental to a horse's well being. The arrogance of EG, who hasn't even bothered to put out any sort of statement to justify his treatment of the horse is astounding. It seems that he just doesn't care. And that's just really very sad.
		
Click to expand...

This is when this forum needs a like button!! Thank you


----------



## Tnavas (18 August 2015)

Cheiro1 said:



			This is when this forum needs a like button!! Thank you 

Click to expand...

There is sort of, on the left is a star, click on it and rate the post.


----------



## daffy44 (18 August 2015)

Fantastic elliefiz. I am nowhere near the league of EG, but I have trained my own horses to GP, and I couldnt agree more.  If thats what it takes to be super successful, then I'm very glad I'm not.


----------



## Booboos (18 August 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			Actually there is, this link also contains links to further research. http://horsetalk.co.nz/2015/08/07/hyperflexion-thumbs-down-equitation-scientists/#axzz3ivIq8Bcp

It states there are currently 42 published studies that focus on the effects of head position with 88% of them saying its detrimental.
		
Click to expand...

Apologies I have now found the original link but it will take me a while to work through it.


----------



## Booboos (18 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			This is an interesting article and it does reference a study about nuchal ligament illnesses (sic).

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/why_not.php

Click to expand...

Difficult to know what to say about this as it is only available in German, was not published in a peer reviewed journal nor has it been picked up by anyone else to either replicate or refute.


----------



## Booboos (18 August 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			Actually there is, this link also contains links to further research. http://horsetalk.co.nz/2015/08/07/hyperflexion-thumbs-down-equitation-scientists/#axzz3ivIq8Bcp

It states there are currently 42 published studies that focus on the effects of head position with 88% of them saying its detrimental.
		
Click to expand...

OK I have only spend a very brief time on this but I can tell you what I think. this report, original here
http://www.equitationscience.com/LiteratureRetrieve.aspx?ID=136557
Is really, really poor science and atrocious literature review. I wish there was some formal way of objecting to it as it is really misleading.

Of the studies it so easily refers to some have nothing to do with rolkur or training methods, e.g. Beausoleil just says breathlessness is scary for animals
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25004795
Some say the opposite of what is claimed by the report, e.g. Barton who says horses can see fine in all positions by moving their eyeballs (hardly a welfare issue)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19031516

And some are done on horses who already have problems, e.g. Van Erck who looked at horses with airway obstruction
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22082441

This report is so misleading I wish there was some way of calling them out on it. A great example of how anyone with a keyboard can write anything they like.


----------



## shortstuff99 (18 August 2015)

The report is originally a write up of a conference of the leading experts in the field not just someone who felt like doing a lit review. Referenced papers don't need to be only on the subject your studying. I've had published papers where referenced work is not on the species I'm even studying but you can link in what has been found in other species to support a finding. Also just to add at the end of the report in my original link it says 88% of studies found it to be detrimental not all of them.


The breathlessness study links in as rolkur has shown to restrict breathing in other studies and this one shows how breathlessness is a welfare concern and so creating it through training can never be excused.

Also your last mentioned paper says how flexing of the head can create the condition theyre studying (how it is seen more in dressage horses) so actually supports what the main paper is studying?


----------



## tallyho! (19 August 2015)

I can't believe the defence for rollkur here...

Dressage is here for it's own sake and it's very very sad to read. I feel ashamed to have supported those perpetrators of cruel training methods before I knew better. What's with all the proof finding? Can you not see? Go into any tack shop and you will find the most expensive is the most cruel. Crank cavessons; thick triple ply leather reins with non-slip material so it's impossible to give... super strong spurs. All to control massive strong crackers horses?

Hot horses "bred" for dressage... dressage "type"... it's killing the TRAINING & RIDING of horses. It's as if the world forgot the whole point of it.


----------



## Alec Swan (19 August 2015)

I'm more than a little surprised that there are those who,  despite their angle of approach,  need learned papers to support their,  often opposing,  cases,  when it must be obvious to most I'd have thought, that to watch a horse performing disciplines which are so alien to its normal movements as to be uncomfortable at best,  and distressing to witness at worst.

I also wonder,  with our continuing demand for ever more exaggerated party-pieces,  if we one day won't have horses being encouraged by devices which are hard-wired in to their neurological systems,  and which will deliver electrical impulses to further enhance their distortions.  I wouldn't laugh too loud anyone,  you can bet that it's been considered.

Alec.


----------



## Cortez (19 August 2015)

Alec, there are already electric spurs and reins used in training western horses (illegal, of course, but they do exist). I believe that there are no lengths to which some humans will not go to aggrandise themselves, which is why those who try and step in should be supported.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (19 August 2015)

Booboos, are there any papers that are peer reviewed etc... that show that Rollkur does no damage to the horse physically, causes no discomfort and that it is not distressing (for want of a better term) for the horse either? If not, then surely all we know is that there is a lack of research into it?

From my observations, it is my opinion that Rollkur is at the very least an unkind training method.


----------



## shortstuff99 (19 August 2015)

Now this is an oldish article (and it's not peer reviewed but please don't dismiss it!) that I find is pretty thought provoking on the subject http://dressagefortherestofus.com/cruelty-paradox/


----------



## Casey76 (19 August 2015)

Rollkur is used and continues to be used because it works. It allows that stupendous lift of the shoulder and foreleg... is it right or ethical: no.  It also perpetuates the mismatch between the fore and hind quarters.  Often these horses have overly muscled shoulders, and a comparatively weak hq, in trot (for which horses are being purpose bred to passage rather than trot), you end up with significant DAP, unclean/broken lines and hqs which are trailing.

M. Gal is an exquisite rider, his timing is perfection.  The tests he rode on Totilas, especially the pi-pa transitions are some of the cleanest, most technically correct transitions ever recorded.  Do I agree with his training methods: no.


----------



## tristar (19 August 2015)

we don`t need papers to tell us something so obviously cruel is wrong!

we are very experience riders trainers and can form our own opinions on effective methods of training, from breeding our own horses through rearing youngstock, into backing and training. 

no wonder those horses are so wound up, they are all ridden with spurs, and all I can say is if I can get a horse to work in front of the leg without spurs, and they are supposed to be so wonderful, ban spurs, because I can tell them its well possible.

different horses have eyes set in different positions giving them various ranges of vision
 so rollkur  will affect some more than others.

I`ve never seen a horse at liberty chose to take up rollkur position of the head, all the work done by a dressage horse is supposed to  originate from the horse`s natural movements.

well said tallyho.


----------



## Barnacle (19 August 2015)

Peer reviewed article on what horses think of rollkur: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159108002876

It's only one article and it is not on top dressage horses but it is one strand of evidence that is pretty clear-cut. 

As for why scientific research is needed, humans have a very flawed conception of the world and we readily ignore information that does not suit our beliefs. Science is our way to overcome that. Scientists are people too (I am one) and we sometimes make mistakes but on the whole we make progress. It makes me very sad how opinionated and subjective the equestrian world is when in fact many of the debates we end up in have either been settled or could be settled by science if only there was interest. I don't think it's a  good idea to think you can judge how a horse is feeling by "looking in its eyes" - for one there is research that shows you can't! (Or at least people cannot reliably judge whether a horse is fearful or not. They hide their emotions just like we do.) - but I do think the rollkur debate should be put to bed. There is enough out there to say it's harmful and enough top riders who do not use it.


----------



## Sags_Deer (19 August 2015)

I don't like him at all


----------



## YasandCrystal (19 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm more than a little surprised that there are those who,  despite their angle of approach,  need learned papers to support their,  often opposing,  cases,  when it must be obvious to most I'd have thought, that to watch a horse performing disciplines which are so alien to its normal movements as to be uncomfortable at best,  and distressing to witness at worst.

I also wonder,  with our continuing demand for ever more exaggerated party-pieces,  if we one day won't have horses being encouraged by devices which are hard-wired in to their neurological systems,  and which will deliver electrical impulses to further enhance their distortions.  I wouldn't laugh too loud anyone,  you can bet that it's been considered.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Well said Alec.  I cannot condone anything forced these days which is why the teachings of Charles de Kunffy and Herschmann appeal wholeheartedly to me. I love the classical teachings, no force, just balance and correct riding and patience, all skills sadly no one seems to respect these days. The judges are as bad as the public and reward poor and cruel training.


----------



## YasandCrystal (19 August 2015)

Cortez said:



			Alec, there are already electric spurs and reins used in training western horses (illegal, of course, but they do exist). I believe that there are no lengths to which some humans will not go to aggrandise themselves, which is why those who try and step in should be supported.
		
Click to expand...

Cortez incredibly you can buy a 'spur guard' which is a fabric strap to go around the horse just behind the girth to stop the rider marking it with their Spurs!!!! What a crazy world!!

I would go as far as to say if you can't lunge your horse just off a cavesson with no other straps or side reins or devices you are not training it correctly, but many would argue with me.


----------



## Marydoll (19 August 2015)

Booboos said:



			OK I have only spend a very brief time on this but I can tell you what I think. this report, original here
http://www.equitationscience.com/LiteratureRetrieve.aspx?ID=136557
Is really, really poor science and atrocious literature review. I wish there was some formal way of objecting to it as it is really misleading.

Of the studies it so easily refers to some have nothing to do with rolkur or training methods, e.g. Beausoleil just says breathlessness is scary for animals
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25004795
Some say the opposite of what is claimed by the report, e.g. Barton who says horses can see fine in all positions by moving their eyeballs (hardly a welfare issue)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19031516

And some are done on horses who already have problems, e.g. Van Erck who looked at horses with airway obstruction
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22082441

This report is so misleading I wish there was some way of calling them out on it. A great example of how anyone with a keyboard can write anything they like.
		
Click to expand...

I dont need any peer reviewed research to tell me Rollkur is bad for a horse, i just need to look at the horse and listen to it trying to take a breath, sometimes you just need a set of eyes and some common sense


----------



## tallyho! (19 August 2015)

Could we have a real battle re-enactment? And test out the supposed training of the horses...

Modern hot looney "dressage" horse + trainers/riders/whatever VS classically trained normal horse (any permitted) + classic rider/trainer.

Just wondering which side would have full (preferably light) control of the horse with just one hand.

The other hand would be holding the sword. Obvs.


----------



## Cortez (19 August 2015)

What, like this you mean


----------



## dominobrown (19 August 2015)

tristar said:



			disagree with your definition of competent rider.

my neighbour did not ride for 20 years, is definitely incompetent, he rode round the arena on an advanced horse who is also a hot stallion, the horse just took him for what he was and acted accordingly and listened, and then cantered steadily around a small paddock, it was the first time the horse had ever been ridden by anyone else since he was broken in  ten years ago, the trainer has total confidence in the horse because it is correctly trained.
		
Click to expand...

Dressage= Training
A well trained horse should be easy to ride by a competent rider. i.e submissive, off the aids etc,
Totilas... yes he was a grand prix horse but Rath is not a bad rider in any means and really struggled... is that a well trained horse? 

Everyone gave Rath a lot of stick when he got Toto and he didn't up to the point to my knowledge use Rollkur etc on his horses, his way of training and riding was more of the old school German ilk.  

So yeh.. good question.. Why does everyone love Edward Gal and hate Rath? I know who I would send my horse to if I had too...


----------



## Goldenstar (19 August 2015)

dominobrown said:



			Dressage= Training
A well trained horse should be easy to ride by a competent rider. i.e submissive, off the aids etc,
Totilas... yes he was a grand prix horse but Rath is not a bad rider in any means and really struggled... is that a well trained horse? 

Everyone gave Rath a lot of stick when he got Toto and he didn't up to the point to my knowledge use Rollkur etc on his horses, his way of training and riding was more of the old school German ilk.  

So yeh.. good question.. Why does everyone love Edward Gal and hate Rath? I know who I would send my horse to if I had too...
		
Click to expand...

Not all horses go for all riders that just how it is .
The sharper the horse the harder it is for new riders to find the way to get the best out of the horse .
Horses are allowed to form preferences they are not machines especially when they have been trained by one rider for a long time it's not a reflection of their training .


----------



## tallyho! (20 August 2015)

Cortez said:



			What, like this you mean 






Click to expand...

Yes Cortez, exactly what I had in mind... your horse looks very light in the hand and has an unusual advantage against the rollkur horses... the exquisite example can see where it's going


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (20 August 2015)

love him?? who is he ?


----------



## Alec Swan (20 August 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			love him?? who is he ?
		
Click to expand...

That's King Alphonso the Ponso. 

Alec.


----------



## milliepops (20 August 2015)

Barnacle said:



			As for why scientific research is needed, humans have a very flawed conception of the world and we readily ignore information that does not suit our beliefs. Science is our way to overcome that. Scientists are people too (I am one) and we sometimes make mistakes but on the whole we make progress. It makes me very sad how opinionated and subjective the equestrian world is when in fact many of the debates we end up in have either been settled or could be settled by science if only there was interest. I don't think it's a  good idea to think you can judge how a horse is feeling by "looking in its eyes" - for one there is research that shows you can't! (Or at least people cannot reliably judge whether a horse is fearful or not. They hide their emotions just like we do.) - but I do think the rollkur debate should be put to bed. There is enough out there to say it's harmful and enough top riders who do not use it.
		
Click to expand...

Been watching these threads with interest,and also some very intelligent dispassionate debate on the BD forum.
The other reason why a scientific approach is needed is in order to make a definition of what constitutes RK and what doesn't. In order to ban a practice, you need to define what it IS specifically. There must be a boundary between LDR and rollkur, one being permitted and the other not. It's interesting reading how different people interpret that boundary.

Booboos, are you on the BD forum? Someone has called the Weiler study that Faracat linked to on Sustainable dressage into question, it's difficult as there doesn't seem to be a translation into English available but their objections are around the purpose of the study and lack of control of variables.  Plus the horses that were dissected were presumably at the end of their lives & not PTS at the height of their career in order to study training methods.



To answer the OP, I'm another who is in awe of EG's seat.  Quite extraordinary, regardless.


----------



## ester (20 August 2015)

There are issues around all of the studies, mostly namely that they use horses not necessarily used to this form of training and overall that the numbers tested are small to get any significant data out of.


----------



## Casey76 (20 August 2015)

Also similar to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, a lot of the tests which are done to determine the level of restriction/damage, are in themselves invasive and then how do you determine what is due to the test and what is due to the training method?

It is going to be one of those things which will always continue behind closed doors, even if it is banned in the future (as we all "know" rapping still happens in SJing circles - whether it be mechanical (using heavy/metal poles) or chemical (using a skin irritant like capsaicin))


----------



## tristar (20 August 2015)

domino, sorry,  I`m not quite sure what you are trying to say? 

and which one would you  let ride your horse, and why? and why not.


----------



## YasandCrystal (20 August 2015)

tristar said:



			domino, sorry,  I`m not quite sure what you are trying to say? 

and which one would you  let ride your horse, and why? and why not.
		
Click to expand...

Domino is saying that Rath is the sympathetic rider and the reason he didn't get on with Toto is because the horse had been trained through force and dominance by Gal. Had he been classically trained he would be an easy sensitive ride. So along with Domino I would rather Rath than Gal on any of mine anyday.


----------



## ycbm (20 August 2015)

YasandCrystal said:



			Domino is saying that Rath is the sympathetic rider and the reason he didn't get on with Toto is because the horse had been trained through force and dominance by Gal. Had he been classically trained he would be an easy sensitive ride. So along with Domino I would rather Rath than Gal on any of mine anyday.
		
Click to expand...

Totilas was so fiery as a young horse that Gal rejected him after trying him, and was worked on by the owner to take the horse on. He did, in spite of big reservations about how difficult his temperament was. This is all on record. Totilas was never and could never have been made to be an 'easy' ride for anyone.


----------



## Dave the dog (20 August 2015)

Completely out of my depth here. but had to make a comment. I just watched a video or two of Tennessee walking horses and made a mental comparison to dressage conformation and training, then I watched an interview with EG, the guy talks through clenched teeth! I feel somewhat ashamed of my self, so, tomorrow I'm going to give my horse a day off. And maybe on Saturday I can look him in the eye and reflect the same honesty. If not I won't ride. Not a happy human.


----------

