# anyone else ever had problems with colic after worming ? (equest pramox)



## barnaby bear (19 September 2011)

hi....new to the forums and to be honest i just wanted to see if anyone else has ever had any problems with colic after worming their horse?

had to have my beloved arab oliver put to sleep yesterday - after owning him for over 20 years. i am beyond devastated as you can imagine .

terrible colic and wasnt responding to hours of treatment from a vet.

the thing that is grating on my heart is that i wormed him exactly 48 hrs before the onset of colic with equest pramox wormer.

i dont do him vey often (maybe once a year) as he has a field on his own with horses next door and i daily collect the droppings. so he's not a horse that is at massive risk from worms - or worm burden



he's never had colic in his life and i worm him and suddenly within 48 hrs he dies from it .



anyone else ever had any problems with colic after worming ?

 thanks guys


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## maggiesmum (19 September 2011)

((((hugs)))) for you..
You have my deepest sympathy as I cam very close to losing my gelding a few weeks ago from impactive colic 12 hours after being wormed with Noromectin, worming usually brings on a few days of footyness so I always worm count first to be sure I really need to do it but I never expected this! 

He was wormed in the evening and presented with colic symptoms the following morning, we were pretty sure it was all over but he improved slightly after 24 hours at which point they wanted to give him a chance, he was pumped with water 2 or 3 times a day for 6 days. He pulled through but by the skin of his teeth. 

He's never shown any signs of colic in the 6 years i've owned him till now either. 

A few more ((((Hugs)))).. because I think you need them. x


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## canteron (19 September 2011)

I too just wanted to say I am really sorry and how completely devastating.  My heart really goes out to you.

I used this wormer for the first time a couple of weeks ago and everything was OK, but I too am quite wary of wormers, worm counting and using them only if necessary.  I am interested in other replies as my oldie has just been diagnosed with Cushings and I have been told he will be more susceptible to worms.  I have never quite understood how any drug can kill the worms but be harmless to the horse?


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## MerrySherryRider (19 September 2011)

I am so sorry, you must be devastated.

Only time i've ever had a problem with a wormer was after giving an 18month filly Equest Paramox. She had colic and awful diarrhoea for several days after. She has always had low worm counts and grazing was poo picked daily.

 I've had her from weaning and she's now 5yrs and never had a days illness before or since, except for the one time she had Equest Paramox.


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## brightmount (19 September 2011)

My horse has had gas colic after Equimax and Equest (green), but so far has been OK with Pramox, which suggests its more to do with her worm burden or the state of her gut at the time of worming than the product itself.

My vet came up with the idea of giving bute from the day before worming to a few days afterwards to prevent discomfort, which seems to work. Obviously if she had a high worm burden and was at risk of impaction, that would be a different matter, but I worm count her regularly to keep an eye on that.


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## lachlanandmarcus (19 September 2011)

Pramox is quite a powerful product - sort of all singing all dancing. Which is OK for most horses, but personally I think it is lower risk to use wormers that target the specific worms that are present, not everything, which means you can use a product which is specific to that and not everything all at once. 

So I  use worm counts and then worm once a year for encysted redworms which dont show on the worm counts, and also blood test for tapeworm (if positive, worm for tapeworm and test again next year, if negative my vet says they are low risk and can probably only test every other year if you want). 

Also make sure you dont flu/tet vac and worm close together, I nearly lost my chap to a recurring virus he came down with shortly after this combo and now he cant have the flu vacc at all, just has tet. It took him 4 years to get over it. 

Im so so sorry for your loss, it wasnt anything you did wrong :-(((


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## contestdancer (19 September 2011)

I'm so sorry for your sad loss. 

Yes we have had two horse colic using Pramox. One colicked virtually immediately and the other overnight. We no longer use this wormer.


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## barnaby bear (19 September 2011)

thank you very much everyone for your replies, kind words and hugs .

i am utterly beside myself , and it is really hard to not blame myself ....but if it is the wormer that caused it then i wonder whether it should carry a clearer warning on it that these things can occur in older or maybe younger horses?

i am trying to find out the contact details of the manufacturers of the wormer but i've thrown the box and leaflet away, so if anyone does have the contact details of the manufacturer that would be greatly appreciated, so i can at least contact them with the details of what has happened
i know it wont bring my oliver back but i would hate for others to go through what i have. 

the real irony is i consulted my vet before worming my horse with it and asked if my horse would be safe taking it and it was the wormer she recommended for him .

of course there is always possibility that the loss of my horse and the wormer causing colic were unrelated but it makes you think doesnt it ....in a horse that has never presented with colic in the 20-21 years that i have owned him 

thank you once again folks for your kind and helpful posts xxx

p.s - actually i have just found out it is manufactured by Pfizer Animal Health....so i will contact them - dont suppose they will reply - but at least i have let them know my situation .

thanks


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## Dancing Queen (19 September 2011)

I am so sorry to hear of your sad loss.

I personally worm count to ensure that i do have to worm them, then i dont give them the full recommended dose - I tend to give them less than it says.

I would certainly complain to Pfizer, It does seem a huge coincidence.

Once again I am so sorry to hear about Oliver.

Run free Big man xxx


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## dizzydoo (19 September 2011)

sorry for your loss how sad I lost my mare in may still trying to get over it bug hugs ... my little loan pony I have just taken on for the kids has never been wormer regular I was wondering what wormer to give her I'm scared coz she has suffered with colic and is old the last thing I want to do is give her colic if any one has some advice of what I should do please tell me I was going to buy equest pramox don't think I will 
now after the sad loss of op horse thanks


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## dizzydoo (19 September 2011)

sorry was meant to say big hugs and the other word wormer these iPhones lol


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## MerrySherryRider (19 September 2011)

Incidentally, I remember this issue being raised on another forum about 3 or so years ago with accounts of horses experiencing colic after having this wormer. Its difficult to know whether the colic is coincidence or a direct result of the product, but certainly worth bearing in mind with vunerable horses.


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## katherine1975 (19 September 2011)

I had a horse that had a reaction to equest pramox, it was almost instant she started sweating and her respiratory rate went really high, this resolved after about two hours. I called the company and spoke to someone in Ireland and they said they had never had any problems before. I tried her once more on it a year later and the same thing happened as the company said it may have been a coincidence, but the same thing happened. I never used that product on her again and didn't have any further problems.

I am so sorry to hear about your horse - hugs xx


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## barnaby bear (19 September 2011)

dizzydoo said:



			sorry for your loss how sad I lost my mare in may still trying to get over it bug hugs ... my little loan pony I have just taken on for the kids has never been wormer regular I was wondering what wormer to give her I'm scared coz she has suffered with colic and is old the last thing I want to do is give her colic if any one has some advice of what I should do please tell me I was going to buy equest pramox don't think I will 
now after the sad loss of op horse thanks
		
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to be honest i would have a worm count done on her before i gave her anything .... 

and take it from there....maybe asking a vets advice too .


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## barnaby bear (19 September 2011)

a copy of the email i recieved from the wormer manufacturers below :-


Thank you for your email regarding the Suspected Adverse Reaction (SAR) to Equest Pramox . Firstly may I offer you my condolences on the loss of your horse.  Pfizer take all cases of SARs very seriously and as part of our phamacovigilance responsibilities I will report the case to the Veterinary Medicines Directorate (VMD). I would be most grateful it you would forward the details of your vet so that I may contact them in order to make a full and accurate report.

 I have looked back on the Periodic Safety Update Report (PSUR) for Equest Pramox, there have been cases where horses have developed colic post treatment due to burden of worm, which I appreciate is something you are aware can occur. There have been no deaths in the UK that have been attributed to the use of the product.

 Again my I offer you my sincere condolences.

 Kind regards



i know my horse didnt have a big worm burden though ....thats the thing.an forgive me for being scepticle but one cant help but wonder if they wriggle out of things so you dont make a claim against them for the loss of your horse ?  are they really telling the truth ?
who knows?


thanks you once again for all your replies and experiences shared. it is so nice that complete strangers are sending me hugs and thoughts and stuff. bless you guys xx


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## Dancing Queen (19 September 2011)

Did you have a PM done on Oliver - is there time to have a PM? I wonder if the vet could see anything? I would contact a solicitor - see where you stand.

Big hugs for you loss.


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## hairycob (19 September 2011)

Worm counts won't detect tapeworm or encysted redworm burdens so it could be that they were the problem as Pramox should kill both of those.


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## Salcey (19 September 2011)

Our mare coliced 48hours after worming with pramox and endnd up at Oakham.  Thankfully ok now, was wormed and counted up to date previously.

Sorry for your loss x


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## barnaby bear (19 September 2011)

Dancing Queen said:



			Did you have a PM done on Oliver - is there time to have a PM? I wonder if the vet could see anything? I would contact a solicitor - see where you stand.

Big hugs for you loss.
		
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i didnt actually ....i couldnt stand anymore mauling of him....you know what i mean. he's been buried now ..... so i will just let him rest bless him.

i guess when i posted this topic i was praying that i would get no responses so i couldnt blame myself for killing him with the wormer.

i'm shocked really that there have been quite a few cases of colic with this wormer.really makes you wonder doesnt it....maybe wormers do more harm than good ???

i will have another chat with the vet over the next couple of days....though at the time when i asked she said it could have been any number of different things that caused the colic 

i guess in a way its futile following lines of enquiry cause  it wont bring him back ....but on the other hand if this product is more dangerous than good its important to let the manufacturers know whats happened.


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## idx (19 September 2011)

barnaby bear said:



			i guess when i posted this topic i was praying that i would get no responses so i couldnt blame myself for killing him with the wormer.
		
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Please, please, please dont blame yourself.  I lost a horse to colic and I know that its hard not to feel responsible.  But you are not responsible.

Colic can be very random, every horse on a yard could have been wormed with that wormer with none of them colicking.  You just cannot legislate for colic.  All we can ever do is try to do our best - give them loving homes, ensure they are fed and watered and have appropriate medical care.  You did all this and your horse was very luck to have you as mum.

You have done the right thing in informing the wormer company so that if there is a pattern/issue with the wormer it is highlighted.

Worming is not without risk however not worming also brings potential for colic.

Give yourself time to grieve but take heart from all the love you gave your horse.

Been where you are now and it is terrible so big hugs to you.


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## Black_Horse_White (19 September 2011)

So sorry for your loss. My horse came down with colic within an hour of being wormed with Equest, vet said it was not the cause but I'm not so sure.


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## Dancing Queen (19 September 2011)

barnaby bear said:



			i didnt actually ....i couldnt stand anymore mauling of him....you know what i mean. he's been buried now ..... so i will just let him rest bless him.


i guess in a way its futile following lines of enquiry cause  it wont bring him back ....but on the other hand if this product is more dangerous than good its important to let the manufacturers know whats happened.
		
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I understand how you feel.
It wont bring him back, but if it could save another life, then perhaps Olivers passing wasnt so much in vain.

I planted a rose tree (standard rose) when i sadly lost my babies - It helped me and helps me to this day xx


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## alsiola (19 September 2011)

OP: Condolences for your loss.  I think it is unlikely that worming was the cause of your horse's colic.  There are reports of impactions occuring after worming, but these are extremely unlikely to be fatal.  Colitis can also occur, but usually presents with diarrhoea as the primary sign, not colic.



Dancing Queen said:



			...i dont give them the full recommended dose - I tend to give them less than it says.
		
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Please please please give the recommended dose - underdosing will not only be ineffective for your horse, but also contributes to resistance problems for every other horse.


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## canteron (20 September 2011)

It might be worth talking to the big worm count companies like Westgate Labs.  They have always been very friendly and given me good advice where needed, but more that that they are in a position to see the bigger picture and may be able to learn from your horses death to refine their advice and help other horses in future?

If you go to their Facebook page it gives an idea of how they are genuinely interested in worming and it consequences.


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## smiffyimp (20 September 2011)

So sorry for your loss. Big hugs. When pramox first came out our yard used it, 3 went down with colic, one of them my old Arab. Thankfully all was well, but one pony struggled for 24hours. Ive never used the stuff since. I dont use Equest either. I egg count year round, equitape spring and autumn and 5 day course too. Touch wood, no probs. I think (and this is MY opinion) that the drugs are getting too strong for horses to deal with. Wormers these days last 10-12 weeks and although this will involve a release mechanism of the drug, I think the strength is over powering the horses system. I never remember colic with good old strongrid all those years ago.


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## soulfull (20 September 2011)

a good few years ago when equest was introduced first in the US there were lots of problems  colic, and even nervous system problems.  A friend of mine worked at a vets over there and warned me about it

However after it being over here a few years without too many problems I have used normal equest a few times without problems.  I have just bought a pramox and was about to buy 3 more for other horses but I am not sure with those how well they have been wormed in the past so am reluctant to buy it now

I notice their reply to you say 'no reported deaths in the UK'  hmm what about the US ??


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## barnaby bear (20 September 2011)

soulfull said:



			a good few years ago when equest was introduced first in the US there were lots of problems  colic, and even nervous system problems.  A friend of mine worked at a vets over there and warned me about it

However after it being over here a few years without too many problems I have used normal equest a few times without problems.  I have just bought a pramox and was about to buy 3 more for other horses but I am not sure with those how well they have been wormed in the past so am reluctant to buy it now

I notice their reply to you say 'no reported deaths in the UK'  hmm what about the US ??
		
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good point !
course they will say ''no reports of death as a result of using their wormers'' because the cause of death will always be written down as colic wont it. 

and then they will get out of that by saying there could be 101 reasons for colic in horses....so they will wriggle out of any blame that way 

ever likely they say no horse ever died as a result of using their wormer. 

they quite possibly did....but they're just getting out of it.

i have a feeling that i will carry this with me for the rest of my life .....

ironically i managed to kill the thing i love more than anything else in the whole world ...i feel like taking the wormer myself and seeing what it can do for me ....but i know i cant do that to my family.

thanks again for your replies and experiences shared folks .....i will re read over everything and take your advise on some things .

if i find out anything else of any use to anyone i will let you know 

thanks again folks


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## pines of rome (20 September 2011)

I feel so terribly sorry for you what an awful thing to happen, we are told to use these wormers but they often make our horses ill, elderly horses seem the most prone.
 I spoke to my homeopathic vet about this and he says chemical wormers are not good for horses systems, so i am currently using herbal ones with worm counts and daily poo picking.
 Try not to blame yourself, you were only trying to do the right thing, having lost two horses myself i know how you are feeling. Hugs xx


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## Mitchyden (20 September 2011)

Sorry for your loss but don't blame yourself you were only doing what you had to do.

Years ago, I had a horse that got colic if given a double dose of Strongid-P. He was fine with one syringe but two gave him colic. There was no choice at the time if you wanted to worm for tapeworm so I was prepared for it and had the vet on standby! I always wondered if I should take the risk and not worm him but the vet said worming was a necessary evil!

I always do worm counts on my current horses and they always come back with "no eggs present" except for one horse. She is kept in the same field which is poo picked daily and is fed the same feed but she always comes back with a medium worm count. Obviously I have to then worm her which in turn makes her go footy (she's barefoot). Again, I have to worm her I have no other option. (I would add that I worm all my horses for tapeworm and encysted worms every year I just worm count for the other times).

The problem is with Equest is that it is a very powerful wormer and I've known many horses that have issues with it.


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## Dancing Queen (20 September 2011)

alsiola said:



			OP: Condolences for your loss.  I think it is unlikely that worming was the cause of your horse's colic.  There are reports of impactions occuring after worming, but these are extremely unlikely to be fatal.  Colitis can also occur, but usually presents with diarrhoea as the primary sign, not colic.



Please please please give the recommended dose - underdosing will not only be ineffective for your horse, but also contributes to resistance problems for every other horse.
		
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Well seeing as my horses are own their own and i dont share with anyone and im not on a livery yard and i have been doing it for DONKEYs years I will stick to what I know works for me and my horses. Continual use of wormers as prescribed by the manufacturers leads to resistance problems my.


OP - I hope you are feeling stronger.


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## barnaby bear (21 September 2011)

thanks again folks for your thoughts and kind words xx


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## Poppys Nannan (23 September 2011)

Sending some hugs and strength.
I have just posted a query about equest promax and footiness before i saw your post, it is really making me worry about the best cause of action.
It is only a small thought but thank you for sharing as it may help others (such as me) make informed decisions about treatments.x

So sorry for your loss, please take care x


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## mr fields (23 September 2011)

yes i experienced the exact same as you from the same wormer i had just bought the horse the day i wormed it it had an all its tongue swelled nd started dribbling nd thn started collicing, it is an allergic reaction to the wormer all the horses tht come onto my yard has to be wormed as im a dealing yard so have horses coming nd goin every week nd wouldnt be fair if liveries caught something off 1 of my horses, i have never experienced anything like this until a couple of month ago. my greatest appologisies for your loss


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## FairyLights (23 September 2011)

I dont use ivermctin  [ correlation with grass sickness] or moxidectin based wormers any more. I use Panacur [ no worm resistance checked with worm counts] and pyratel embonate based wormers.


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## FairyLights (23 September 2011)

smiffyimp said:



			So sorry for your loss. Big hugs. When pramox first came out our yard used it, 3 went down with colic, one of them my old Arab. Thankfully all was well, but one pony struggled for 24hours. Ive never used the stuff since. I dont use Equest either. I egg count year round, equitape spring and autumn and 5 day course too. Touch wood, no probs. I think (and this is MY opinion) that the drugs are getting too strong for horses to deal with. Wormers these days last 10-12 weeks and although this will involve a release mechanism of the drug, I think the strength is over powering the horses system. I never remember colic with good old strongrid all those years ago.
		
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I agree.


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## Tnavas (23 September 2011)

So sad to hear of your loss a tragic end. (((HUGS)))

Yes a friend recently wormed hers with a moxidectin based wormer and had her horse collicky for several days.

Fortunately hers did recover. Once when I wormed the school horses for tapeworm - I don't remember the make - I  had many of them go down rolling for a period of about 30 mins - very scarey as when the first went down I had already wormed 20 of them. I phoned the vet who advised that it is sometimes a side effect of the wormer.

I wormed my filly yesterday and she was a little strange for a while after, hers was an ivermectin/praziquantal wormer. She rubbed her muzzle lots on the ground and on her legs - then rolled a couple of times. I stayed around for a good hour and she was fine. Greeted me with a wheres my dinner whinny in the evening.


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## barnaby bear (23 September 2011)

thanks again for your replies and hugs and thoughts folks....much appreciated. xx

interesting that it seems many horses had a reaction soon after the wormer....

whereas my oliver was fine for 48hrs and then went colicky ......

perhaps his colic wasnt linked to the wormer and just a coincidence ????

as he was fine for 2 days after the wormer......there were no problems straight away.

cant believe its a week today ......bless him.


thanks once again folks ....it is very touching and comforting that you guys are giving me hugs and  stuff ....and i really do thank you from the bottom of my heart xx


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## skint1 (23 September 2011)

OP I am very sorry for the loss of your horse, you must be devastated.

Our horse had a mild (ish) colic episode last week, once on Tuesday and then again on Saturday. On Saturday the vet suggested it might be caused by worm burden and we're giving him a 5 day wormer followed by a tapeworm wormer, I'm really worried now.


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## barnaby bear (23 September 2011)

owww....sorry if i have made you concerned.

if it helps any, i just had another conversation with my vet who treated oliver and who also prescribed the wormer in the first place and she said that they use that wormer all the time in their practise and i dont think they would continue to use it if horse after horse was going down with colic all the time after it .

she said it could have been a tumour with oliver ??? or sheer coincidence with the wormer???

hope i havent worried you too much - sorry


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## alsiola (23 September 2011)

Dancing Queen said:



			Continual use of wormers as prescribed by the manufacturers leads to resistance problems my.
		
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Agreed, which is why I would never say to do this either.  If your horse's need worming then worm them with the proper dose, if they don't need worming then don't worm them.  Otherwise 20 years from now we will have no effective wormers left when we do need them.


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## Changes (23 September 2011)

OP, I have a horse who colics after worming for tapeworm. It is the only time he has ever colicked in his life (I bought him from his breeder so I know this).
He has done it badly three times now. 

I did a load of research into the whys and wherefores, but ultimately it seems he just has a reaction to the drug. I've had him 15 years, and had a few other horses through my hands wormed exactly the same as him at the same time on the same grazing (at the time), and they've all been fine. 

I had blood tests done which showed nothing, and he's been regularly wormed all his life. 

The common factors to the colic were being wormed in the autumn, and a tapeworm wormer. However, he has never reacted to the tapeworm wormer in the spring, nor has it been a particular brand that set him off. 

I always used to worm when they came in at night, and the colic had appeared overnight. So I wondered if it was because the grass is disappearing at this time of year, and there is less food in his system to spread the impact of the drug on the gut lining. That might also explain why some years he's better or worse. He's always been in work and fit when he's done it as well. 

I may of course be barking up the wrong tree totally, but working on that premise, for the last 5 years I've wormed in the morning, AFTER a huge feed (bigger than normal, bulked up with sugar beet and chaff) and haylage, and then turned out, and touch wood no problems, or any indication of them. 

Don't feel guilty, horses need worming, it was maybe just his time. 

Although my horse has colicked due to worming, it didn't cost him his life, so there must have been other factors at play with your boy. 

I'm so sorry for your loss.


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## skint1 (24 September 2011)

barnaby bear said:



			owww....sorry if i have made you concerned.

if it helps any, i just had another conversation with my vet who treated oliver and who also prescribed the wormer in the first place and she said that they use that wormer all the time in their practise and i dont think they would continue to use it if horse after horse was going down with colic all the time after it .

she said it could have been a tumour with oliver ??? or sheer coincidence with the wormer???

hope i havent worried you too much - sorry
		
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Oh no, don't worry, I was worried anyway, I am just a worrier    We have been so lucky that he only had 2 relatively mild episodes and we don't know why it happened which also really worries me.  We've only had him a couple of months, he was worm counted soon after arriving and was clear, he's had a treatment of Panacur Guard for encysted worms now (vet thinks this could be a possible cause of colic episodes) and so far been fine and we'd have to do a tapeworm treatment anyway soon, yard policy. 

I'm so sorry you lost your Oliver, it is an incredibly difficult thing to go through


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## paddy555 (24 September 2011)

alsiola said:



			Agreed, which is why I would never say to do this either.  If your horse's need worming then worm them with the proper dose, if they don't need worming then don't worm them.  Otherwise 20 years from now we will have no effective wormers left when we do need them.
		
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can you explain what you do about encysted please? do you worm with equest annually as worm counts won't show encysted. 
thanks


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## foxy1 (24 September 2011)

A friend's pony had colic soon after worming (approx 6-8 hours), vet told her the colic was due to worming and the wormer had done it's job.

Sorry about your horse. It must have been such a shock.


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## JanetGeorge (24 September 2011)

foxy1 said:



			A friend's pony had colic soon after worming (approx 6-8 hours), vet told her the colic was due to worming and the wormer had done it's job.
		
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Sadly - this is often the case.  Equest Pramox is a very powerful wormer - AND it is stored in body fat.  IF a horse is low on body fat, it can have side effects.  And if a horse has a reasonable burden - particularly encysted - it shifts them SO quickly it can cause blockages - or a 'toxic' effect.

This is why - if a horse is in poor condition - or hasn't been wormed regularly (even if egg counting has been done) - or if its worming status is not known then Equest (whether Pramox or ordinary) is not a suitable wormer.

I've just had a mare come in (Ruby Treasure) as a rescue in very poor condition - we gave her Panacur 5 day which is effective - but mild!  Some interesting creepy-crawlies in her dung for several days - but no ill effects at all.

I should add that I've used Equest and Equest Pramox on literally dozens of horses - many times - including foals (over 12 weeks) and brood mares - with NO ill effects - and I believe it to be a 'safe' wormer if used in accordance with the above.

Unfortunately, co-incidences happen with horses and the OP should NOT beat herself up for worming Oliver with Equest.  Chances are it was purely and simply a co-incidence that he got colic so close after worming. (And I would expect a colic DUE to worming to show up in less than 24 hours!)


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## sugar mouse (24 September 2011)

I found this thread today while looking for info on post worming haemorrhaging as I lost a beloved home bred mare today and am still trying to work through making sense of what happened.
My mare was wormed with Pramox almost three weeks ago and at the time I had concerns regarding colic reactions. I wormed four of my stock on a Monday morning just in case I needed to call out a vet but all seemed well, I heaved a sigh of relief and thought no more about it.
This morning I found my eighteen year old mare down in her box with extremely elevated heart and breathing rates, clearly in a lot of pain. Nothing administered by the vet seemed to ease her and by early afternoon her circulation was shutting down and I had her put to sleep. 
Anyone reading this will understand the shock of suddenly losing an apparently healthy mare who never had a sorry day in her life and who had been her usual cheeky self just a few hours before. All the haylage I gave her at midnight had been eaten, so when did this change happen and more importantly, why? Why now, why her, why me?
All afternoon I have been worrying about what I did that caused this to happen, hence my interest in Pramox and possible reactions. My rational brain tells me this had nothing to do with M's demise and it is all coincidence. More likely it was a ruptured tumour as she had melanomas and I lost her mother to the same fate almost exactly ten years ago.
I joined this forum to post tonight having read through the entire thread started by Barnaby Bear. It has helped make me realise (again) that life is not always rational and ordered as we would wish and seemingly illogical, self blaming ideas are actually the early stages of the grieving process. My vet tells me that statistically September is a dreaded month for the number of horse deaths and this year, unfortunately, we are part of that. 
To Barnaby Bear, I share your pain at the loss of an old friend and wish you well. My apologies to everyone else for rambling (displacement activity) but also I am now thinking of throwing away the other five Pramox not yet administered and returning to tried and tested Panacur five day treatment for my other equines.


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## barnaby bear (25 September 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			Sadly - this is often the case.  Equest Pramox is a very powerful wormer - AND it is stored in body fat.  IF a horse is low on body fat, it can have side effects.  And if a horse has a reasonable burden - particularly encysted - it shifts them SO quickly it can cause blockages - or a 'toxic' effect.

This is why - if a horse is in poor condition - or hasn't been wormed regularly (even if egg counting has been done) - or if its worming status is not known then Equest (whether Pramox or ordinary) is not a suitable wormer.

I've just had a mare come in (Ruby Treasure) as a rescue in very poor condition - we gave her Panacur 5 day which is effective - but mild!  Some interesting creepy-crawlies in her dung for several days - but no ill effects at all.

I should add that I've used Equest and Equest Pramox on literally dozens of horses - many times - including foals (over 12 weeks) and brood mares - with NO ill effects - and I believe it to be a 'safe' wormer if used in accordance with the above.

Unfortunately, co-incidences happen with horses and the OP should NOT beat herself up for worming Oliver with Equest.  Chances are it was purely and simply a co-incidence that he got colic so close after worming. (And I would expect a colic DUE to worming to show up in less than 24 hours!)
		
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yer.... you would think that colic would show up within the first 24 hrs of worming wouldnt you..... i guess.
maybe it was just a co incidence like you say, think i said before the real irony is i bought the wormer from the vets and said a couple of times to them ''are you sure this wormer is ok for him cause he is 24''..... they insisted it was. so i took the wormer. 
oliver was extremely well and had a really good body weight on him - a little porker the truth be known - bless him- and though he is a pure bred arab - he was a stocky kind and having had him over 20 years i knew his worming history etc . 
i used to give him panacure 5 day wormer but he wouldnt touch it cause he knew there was a wormer in it .....so thats why i gave him the wormer that i did. 

ahhh.....i'm just waffeling on now cause its late ....sorry if this post makes no sense- over tired.
thank you again for your thoughts and interesting posts folks - i will re read them in the morning


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## barnaby bear (25 September 2011)

sugar mouse said:



			I found this thread today while looking for info on post worming haemorrhaging as I lost a beloved home bred mare today and am still trying to work through making sense of what happened.
My mare was wormed with Pramox almost three weeks ago and at the time I had concerns regarding colic reactions. I wormed four of my stock on a Monday morning just in case I needed to call out a vet but all seemed well, I heaved a sigh of relief and thought no more about it.
This morning I found my eighteen year old mare down in her box with extremely elevated heart and breathing rates, clearly in a lot of pain. Nothing administered by the vet seemed to ease her and by early afternoon her circulation was shutting down and I had her put to sleep. 
Anyone reading this will understand the shock of suddenly losing an apparently healthy mare who never had a sorry day in her life and who had been her usual cheeky self just a few hours before. All the haylage I gave her at midnight had been eaten, so when did this change happen and more importantly, why? Why now, why her, why me?
All afternoon I have been worrying about what I did that caused this to happen, hence my interest in Pramox and possible reactions. My rational brain tells me this had nothing to do with M's demise and it is all coincidence. More likely it was a ruptured tumour as she had melanomas and I lost her mother to the same fate almost exactly ten years ago.
I joined this forum to post tonight having read through the entire thread started by Barnaby Bear. It has helped make me realise (again) that life is not always rational and ordered as we would wish and seemingly illogical, self blaming ideas are actually the early stages of the grieving process. My vet tells me that statistically September is a dreaded month for the number of horse deaths and this year, unfortunately, we are part of that. 
To Barnaby Bear, I share your pain at the loss of an old friend and wish you well. My apologies to everyone else for rambling (displacement activity) but also I am now thinking of throwing away the other five Pramox not yet administered and returning to tried and tested Panacur five day treatment for my other equines.
		
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owwww mate......i really dont know what to say ......

i am utterly gutted for you - i really am ......i'm so sorry . 

i think your right.....about blaming ideas being part of the grieving process.... 

but its so hard to not blame ourselves isnt it. but you know what mate - i know we are not to blame. we just do our best dont we and thats all we can ever do.

small consolation i know....but for what its worth i will keep you in my thoughts ....i promise.  ((((hug))))


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## paddy555 (25 September 2011)

Barnaby Bear and Sugar mouse, I cannot begin to tell you how sorry I am. You must both be devastated. Thanks for starting this thread. It has really made me think about a wormer I have never really felt happy about. 

Last year I wormed by 25yo arab (difficult to keep weight on) and 16yo grey with a large melanoma problem with equest for the first time. The grey was OK but after an hour the arab had colic for the first time in 25 years. Fortunately he was OK. The vet didn't seem in the slightest suprised when I rang to say my horse had colic after using equest. He had been regularly wormed or worm counted and indeed had had eqvalan duo only 10 weeks earlier. I don't see how I could have known if he had a high encysted burden and certainly along the lines of JanetGeorge I would never give equest to a horse where I didn't know it's worming history. I would never give pramox to anything. 

I am now thinking seriously about what to do come encysted time. Perhaps PG is not such a bad choice. (it can always be syringed down if they won't eat it) 
my condolonces to both of you.


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## sugar mouse (25 September 2011)

Thanks for your kind thoughts, Barnaby Bear and Paddy555. It has helped to communicate through a forum as I haven't yet been able to tell any of my horse friends for fear of breaking down and blubbing at them. I do appreciate your support.
It concerned me a little when I read Janet George saying that Pramox is stored in the fat. Like Oliver, my mare was a little butterball and never looked her age. Now I'm thinking, was their condition related to their downfall with chemicals stored in their bodies and slowly being released? I never thought that might be how certain wormers could be long acting but it makes sense and I don't like the thought of it at all.


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## barnaby bear (25 September 2011)

sugar mouse said:



			Thanks for your kind thoughts, Barnaby Bear and Paddy555. It has helped to communicate through a forum as I haven't yet been able to tell any of my horse friends for fear of breaking down and blubbing at them. I do appreciate your support.
It concerned me a little when I read Janet George saying that Pramox is stored in the fat. Like Oliver, my mare was a little butterball and never looked her age. Now I'm thinking, was their condition related to their downfall with chemicals stored in their bodies and slowly being released? I never thought that might be how certain wormers could be long acting but it makes sense and I don't like the thought of it at all.
		
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i think janet george meant that if the horse is low on body fat ....or 'poor condition' then the wormer is too strong ......
not our horses who were very well and a good weight. 

my vet did say she uses the wormer all the time ....its really commonly used in her practise and if they were getting a lot of problems i'm sure they wouldnt use it . 

hope your ok today sugar mouse...... it hurts so much doesnt it ....sending you strength xxx


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## Dolcé (26 September 2011)

So sorry for your loss, both to Barnaby Bear and Sugar Mouse.  Pramox is not something I would use following the press it was given when it first came out.  I haven't used Equest either since that time until I was recommended it for my in foal mare by the SQP.  On worming the mare had 4 weeks left to her due date, the morning following worming the foal had arrived, very small and touch and go as to whether she would make it, coincidence? I don't think so, the mare was showing absolutely no signs of being ready and had no milk for the first few days or so.  I will never use Equest in any form again.  Make sure that you let your SQP, where you bought your wormers from, know what has happened.  It might not be proven but they will then be aware of it and may consider their advice carefully before recommending it again.  I know that mine will not be recommending it for in foal mares again, nor will the other local supplier as I warned them too.


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## domane (26 September 2011)

I would also like to add my condolences to Barnaby Bear and Sugar Mouse.  I've just wormed my Clydesdale X with Pramox and he is footsore so I'm off to buy him some Global Herbs Restore later to try to re-balance his gut, poor lad.  My ex-TB used to get footsore too (but he had typically flat TB feet unfortunately) and I think I used to put him on a course of pink powder before, during and after treatment.  Stupid me, didn't think there might be a problem again... my youngster never seems to be affected.

I think when a horse has colic, it is natural to look for blame because "it was just one of those things" just doesn't cut it with us these days... with our access to information and the internet we are all a lot more informed than years ago and if a horse dies I think we almost get comforted by being able to give a definitive reason for why the tragedy occurred.


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## pines of rome (26 September 2011)

I used Pramox on my horse when I got him, no colic but interestingly his tiny sarcoid started to grow a lot shortly afterwards, could the wormer compromised his immune system?
 Had a worm count done before next worming, came back zero so I have been using Ellen Collinsons herbal No Verms for the last 10 months, have sent a worm test today so will see what the results are.
 My horse is currently being treated by a homeopathic vet for his sarcoid so I am hoping not to use a chemical wormer. Anyone else going the herbal route?


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## barnaby bear (26 September 2011)

thanks again for your thoughts and posts folks. 
one wonders if i should have perhaps had a post mortem done....but i just couldnt bare to put him through anything else- he was too beautiful to do anything invasive to...and i couldnt stand anymore stress either. 

i guess i will have to live with the uncertainty. 

ironically i was thinking back to the horses and riding school i used to ride at as a child......the horses there were never ever ever wormed in their lives - and 99% of them were still alive well into their mid 30's 

some of the original horses are still alive now and i'm 41 .

if i had a horse now...gospel honest truth , i would poo pick the field ....but i really dont know if i would ever worm again ?

my horse was in a field on his own anyway ....with horses in the field next to him. 

like i said above the horses where i used to ride were never wormed and lived to a ripe old age.

is worming REALLY neccessary or is it a dangerous rip off by drug companies?

and the worm counts.....they cant detect some of the worms at certain stages anyway can they ? 

so those too must be a little bit of a waste of time ????


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## pines of rome (26 September 2011)

I agree with you there wasn,t all this hype about wormers years ago and strangely enough there are  reports of horses from the 17th to 19th centuries reaching remarkable ages and there were not any chemical wormers then so they must have used herbs, makes you question it all?
 I hope you start to feel better soon, so sorry for you. x


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## galacasinoking (26 September 2011)

i will never use this wormer again. a friend had to have her welsh mare pts after giving her this as she got bad colic and was showing no signs of improvement, even after painkillers etc
and quite a few other people have mentioned colicy signs after using it. my cob didnt show complete signs of colic but was 'tucked up' and looked uncomfortable and was sluggish for days
keep away from it i say! it shouldnt be allowed on the market


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## sugar mouse (26 September 2011)

Thanks everyone for your kind thoughts and condolences - they do help.

Reading about others experiences with footiness after Pramox worming, which I have not heard of before, but strangely two of the other mares I wormed at the same time as M are now showing laminitic symptoms. Her pair bond was footery yesterday morning so I kept her in for the day and she is no better today. The other mare who was stabled next door to M came in from the field quite lame on her off fore last night and by this morning was showing laminitic symptoms in both front feet although one is still worse than the other. I was wondering if it could possibly have been down to stress as all my horses were very upset on Saturday morning and obviously recognised M's distress.

Before anyone suggests it is something in my fodder, all nine horses are on the same feeding and turnout regime which has not altered in recent weeks. Only those dosed with Pramox three weeks ago today are showing any signs of ailing. The fourth one wormed is a three year old filly and so far she seems fine (touch wood). As others have reported, the youngsters seem to be less affected. 

I'm too frightened to worm the others now as I have another couple of mares and three young geldings to do. What is a natural wormer and where do you get them? None of mine have ever been regularly wormed with an assortment of chemical wormers which must sound terribly irresponsible to some. In defence I'll say I'm lucky to have my own land which had not previously been grazed by horses. In the twenty-eight years I have been here, only my own home bred horses have grazed the fields and I have never had a worm burden or for that matter a serious colic, fatal or otherwise. With all the dire warnings about not worming horses regularly and the dangers of encysted redworm, I thought perhaps I ought to dose them all before winter. Where is the time machine when you need it???

Like you Barnaby Bear, I couldn't bear the thought of my beautiful girl being cut open to confirm the precise cause, although I will always wonder if something could have been done. My equine vet is a friend and hugely competent so I trust her judgement. All evidence pointed to a tumour of some kind in the mesentery affecting the small intestine and even with immediate surgery, a favourable outcome would not have been guaranteed. I have spent a lot of time reading up in laymans terms since Saturday and aside from cancerous tumours, older horses who carry a lot of fat seem to be prone to fatty tumours in this area. The tumour can drop suddenly and cause a strangulation or twist in the small intestine causing great pain that drugs will not alleviate. It's quite scary when you start reading up on the equine digestive tract but basically it could have happened at any time, sooner or later.......

I hope you are coping better with the loss of Oliver, Barnaby Bear. A week is a small milestone and you are in my thoughts.

Would be interested to hear from anyone who has used alternative wormers and where to get them.


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## sugar mouse (26 September 2011)

Thanks for the advice on Panacur Equine Guard and resistance, Border Reiver. 

Given my circumstances (above) and worming history, I shouldn't think that would be a problem for mine as at most, some of the oldies will have been treated only twice with it before.

 Your thoughts would be welcome.


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## brighteyes (26 September 2011)

The way to be sure would have been a post mortem - then you might have been spared all the speculating and angst.  I'm really sorry though. The loss of a special horse and good friend is desperately sad, however it happens and whatever the cause.


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## sugar mouse (26 September 2011)

Thanks for your kind thoughts hch4971.

On the subject of in-foal mares, I was warned off using anything as strong as Equest or Pramox in the run up to foaling and many wormers warn in the small print that they are unsuitable. I usually worm with Panacur granules about two weeks before due date and have never had a problem. It doesn't need to be broad spectrum as I thought we only needed to target the worms likely to be passed through mother's milk? Not sure if this advice is out of date now as it was a long time ago that I first asked the question. It has always worked for me, so far....


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## sugar mouse (26 September 2011)

Yes, I know you're right Brighteyes. The trouble is at such a harrowing time a PM is not uppermost in one's mind. Also with it happening on a Saturday morning, the timimg was not best to follow that route. It was bad enough having to wait 24 hours for removal of the body and jolly lucky it wasn't 48!


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## paddy555 (26 September 2011)

Borderreiver said:



			As some have mentioned, Panacur Guard can be used as an alternative treatment for encysted redworm. However, be careful as there is much worm resistance to this drug nowadays. Tried and trusted it may be but if there are resistant worms it will not treat them and you may as well pour it down the sink.

You need to know it is effective for your horse, not like the horse I posted about on Westgate Facebook page. If the owner had not been using worm counts then she would not have known that her horse still had a heavy worm burden.
		
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SM and Barnaby, I have had to have several horses PTS. It is a devastating experience and never gets any better. Having a PM would be the last thing on my mind. Like you I couldn't get my head around my horse being mutilated however much I wanted answers. 
I am so sorry for both of you. There is no way forward except time and lots of it. Take care of yourselves. 

I must be the only person not on facebook so please can someone give me a link to the Westgate FB page? 

Borderreiver, If you are worming for encysted and these do not show up in a worm count how do you know if you have any? If you don't know how do you know what to worm with which I gather is either PG or equest. 

Is it simply a case of worming with one or the other and then counting later? 
If the encysted are resistent to PG then presumably they stay encysted and will not show up in a later worm count? 

So many questions but would be grateful (and I am sure I'm not the only one) for any input. 

As far as not worming in the old days etc then I just think of my MIL whose mare died of redworm in the days before worming.


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## Borderreiver (26 September 2011)

When using a worm count based programme, a full worming plan or treating a newcomer you need to use a wormer to target encysted redworm.  Programmes should have a winter dose specifically for this possibility unless you have several years of good worm count results and the keep is low risk.

Encysted redworm are not a different type of worm to the redworm (strongyle) eggs found in a worm count. They are simply a normal stage of a redworm's life. They burrow into the gut wall and do not lay eggs, hence why they won't show in a worm count.

So your worm counts through the year will help you to know if there are likely to be any redworm to become encysted. If counts are always clear but you haven't had your horse long then they are a possibility. A horse with a poor background and a wormy past is very likely to carry some.

Try to avoid your horse taking them into the winter by dosing about end of Nov/ into December.

But for normal well looked after horses with good worm count results, don't worry too much. We recommend the winter dose as a precaution, but if you didn't do it and there were a few worms hibernating there, they would go on and mature to lay eggs at a future point and the worm count would go up. Then you would worm your horse of course. As long as there are not thousands doing a mass exit then there will not be a problem.


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## sugar mouse (26 September 2011)

To Border Reiver,

 Thanks for that very clear explanation of all our questions. I feel a lot happier knowing why I am choosing to worm with a certain product and the optimum time of year to administer.


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## paddy555 (26 September 2011)

Border Reiver, 
thank you for your last post which helped a lot.


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## JanetGeorge (27 September 2011)

sugar mouse said:



			On the subject of in-foal mares, I was warned off using anything as strong as Equest or Pramox in the run up to foaling and many wormers warn in the small print that they are unsuitable. I usually worm with Panacur granules about two weeks before due date and have never had a problem. It doesn't need to be broad spectrum as I thought we only needed to target the worms likely to be passed through mother's milk?
		
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I won't use anything in the immediate run-up to foaling!!  The mares are wormed 8-10 weeks before foaling - either with Equest if early foalers - or with Equamax if late foalers.  Then they are wormed IMMEDIATELY after foaling with Equest - to make sure they are 'clean' before going onto rested pasture with their foals - and to clear them of intestinal threadworm - which is passed on to foal in the milk.

Equest and Equest Pramox aren't recommended for mares in THIS country because our licensing laws are very tough and it's just too expensive for manufacturers to comply with the extra tests that would have to be done.  But they are both recommended - and widely used by breeders in other parts of the world.  Obviously - though - you're 'at your own risk' if you use them here for broodmares.


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## brannyman (14 October 2011)

I have also had problem with Equest Pramox, didn't realise until reading on this site but my welsh cob seemed off colour when ridden 2 days after wormer, she sweated up very quickly which is unusual so stopped riding her and have given her couple more days off, last night she still seemed warmer than normal, although eating ok.  Can't help but think is was the wormer, good job I didn't give it to my 26 year old Arab, he was on separate paddock recovering from what the vet suspected was acorn poisening!!  Has anyone else experienced acorn poisening?


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## barnaby bear (14 October 2011)

aww....hope your horse is ok....she seems passed the dangerous time now i reckon....worth still keeping an eye on her though- as i am sure you are already doing 


yes acorn poisioning ....there are already some threads on that .....little arab i know died of it - very sad !

they are definately poisionous if eaten in larger quantities..... my oliver used to love them - had to section his field off and collect them every year


just going back to the equest pramox wormer- i have written to the editor of horse and hound magazine asking them if they would consider publishing an article on the dangers of using this wormer on the back of my experiences and other peoples as shared in this and other threads.....be good if we could get it published in the magazines....

so far i have heard nothing back though sadly


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## brannyman (14 October 2011)

Thank you so much for your quick reply.  I am new to this site and still finding my way around, at present trying to remove foal from Brannyman as he is far from being a foal at 27!!  

Yes I am still keeping an eye on my mare and will look for the link on acorn poisening, my vet seemed to think it was more common in cattle.

Writing to horse and hound about the wormer is a great idea, I will do the same myself, maybe if a few others do to we may get a response, I would hate to think people are worming their horses without being aware of the possible problems, I seem to have been lucky on this occasion but I won't be taking the chance again.


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## paddy555 (14 October 2011)

brannyman said:



			Thank you so much for your quick reply.  I am new to this site and still finding my way around, at present trying to remove foal from Brannyman as he is far from being a foal at 27!!  

Yes I am still keeping an eye on my mare and will look for the link on acorn poisening, my vet seemed to think it was more common in cattle.

Writing to horse and hound about the wormer is a great idea, I will do the same myself, maybe if a few others do to we may get a response, I would hate to think people are worming their horses without being aware of the possible problems, I seem to have been lucky on this occasion but I won't be taking the chance again.
		
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there is a thread on here somewhere re acorns but this very sad thread is on another forum. Please read it if you can, they are a killer. 

http://ihdg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=gh11&action=display&thread=118105


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## guisbrogal (16 October 2011)

I am terrified of this wormer! Actually I am wary of any worer now, but in particular Promax.

I wormed my mare with it last year and got a tiny bit on my lip when she threw her head in the air. I was soooo poorly! I ended up in hospital on a drip. Unfortunately the hospital were not certain it was the wormer as I had ingested so little of it and so put it down to gatric flu. I am 100% certain it was the wormer as I took ill within a couple of hours of getting it in my mouth. I lost 6lbs in weight! My horse was also a bit 'off' for a day or two. No particular symptoms just not herself.
I won't use it again.

I am sure any wormer could do the same if you swallowed (or in my case wiped it near your mouth) but Promax is apparently a much more potent womer.

I am so sorry that you lost your horse and yes there is a chance it was coincidence. We all take the risk of our horses colicking every time we worm them though. We are only doing what we feel is in their best interest so please don't beat yourself up. Your horse knew you loved him and would never deliberatly do anything to endager him. Just a dreadful tragedy!

Huge hugs
xx


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## runmypretties (29 November 2011)

I thought I would add some info here. I purchased a horse at the beginning fo the year and her worming history was a tad dubious so I decided to worm with Equest Pramox. I contacted Pfizer as I was worried that if she did have worms, I could cause a colic by killing them all off at once. Pfizer told me that the product is designed to work over a few week period to kill worms off at a steady rate, therefore reducing the risk of impaction colic. Also that unless the horse has a massive worm burden you would be unlikely to see dead worms in faeces as the slow working of the product allows the worms to be broken down by the digestive system.

I don't doubt that some horses are more sensitive than others to the chemicals and possibly have compromised gut function to begin with due to incorrect diet/illness etc but it must be said (as if anyone reads this feed they will be scared witless by all the negative stories!) that thousands of horses are wormed with these products every year with little or no ill effect and it is a matter of speaking to your vet and working out what will suit you best.

My own horse has been wormed regularly with Equest with no ill effect but last week suffered mild, gassy colic last week and I am now in the quandry of whether to worm her as normal in case it was due to parasites or to put it off or even try another product which I don't know whether she may be sensitive to......

At the end of the day, you can only do what you think is right with the advice you are given and you can do no more. But pfizer do seem to be very forthcoming with help on their products and there is a process for reporting ill effects, lets be honest, there is no point them producing a product that they know is harming animals because they won't make any money!


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## FrankieDurleigh (19 September 2014)

barnaby bear said:



			hi....new to the forums and to be honest i just wanted to see if anyone else has ever had any problems with colic after worming their horse?

had to have my beloved arab oliver put to sleep yesterday - after owning him for over 20 years. i am beyond devastated as you can imagine .

terrible colic and wasnt responding to hours of treatment from a vet.

the thing that is grating on my heart is that i wormed him exactly 48 hrs before the onset of colic with equest pramox wormer.

i dont do him vey often (maybe once a year) as he has a field on his own with horses next door and i daily collect the droppings. so he's not a horse that is at massive risk from worms - or worm burden



he's never had colic in his life and i worm him and suddenly within 48 hrs he dies from it .



anyone else ever had any problems with colic after worming ?

 thanks guys
		
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I know this was so long ago, but i had the exact same thing happen to me!

Within 24 hours of worming my TB with noropraz he was showing signs of colic, (i'm very wary and watch like a hawk as my last horse died of colic) luckily i acted fast and caught and treated it early thanks to the speediness of the vet.
But now i'm very worried and petrified to worm him again 

I'm so sorry for your loss as I know exactly how you must have been feeling.
I still blame myself but unfortunately i can't turn back the clock


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## leggs (19 September 2014)

i'm sorry for your loss.
Worming Always makes me edgy as well, but not worming is also not an option.

In this case of poor Oliver I don't think the worming was connected to the colic but....I was surprised by the Pfizer mail not asking for a batch number. if they are serious about doing an investigation then they should have asked you for the batch number!  When they get complaints like this the lawyers and their QA/QC system get involved immediately-in human cases they will get on a plane with their lawyers and fly to Africa in the middle of the night if necessary. They can trace every vet the batch was sold to.  A batch can be contaminated with something because of mistakes in the productionprocess, however unlikely,  it has happened before!  
Don't throw away the package.

I worked for them 2 years ago (construction project building a new processing plant in their faccilities in Belgium. I luckily escaped after 6months got another offer and I jumped- I really really hated the pharma culture (and that is saying something as I usually work on petrochemical plants nothing is as ruthless as the oil industry, but at least they are honest about it: they are in this to make money)

I would also ask my vet not to give info over telephone, let them communicate in writing and have your vet send you a copy.

Again, chances are very slim that this had anything to do with the Equest, but to be sure I would do what I wrote in this post.

take care!


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## SO1 (22 September 2014)

I know this threat is old and am sorry for those who have lost their horses due to colic.

However when I read the leaflet which came with Equitape which is the tapewormer that is part of Pramox it does say on there that there is a colic risk if the horse has a bad tapeworm infestation. There is no cheap way of knowing if your horse has a tapeworm burden and as tapeworm is carried by mites which can also live in hay even if you keep your horses on their own, never take them anywhere and poo pick the fields they could still get it from hay so you would need to worm them correctly for tapeworm including not under dosing.

Additionally untreated tapeworm can be a cause of colic so don't think by not worming for tapeworm you will prevent the risk of colic.


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## Borderreiver (22 September 2014)

There is now a way of testing for tapeworm, use the Equisal saliva test. This is a godsend for those with horses they are worried about.


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