# Dog has constant loose poo



## Slave2Magic (2 August 2015)

I have 2 jack russell terriers. Dog and a bitch. Brother and sister. The bitch is fine but the dog has loose stools all the time. They have exactly the same food (Wainwrights trays) He is fine in himself but surely this is a problem in his gut somewhere? Any thoughts please?


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## abb123 (2 August 2015)

Starve the dog for 24 hours then start back on just scrambled eggs and some boiled potato. If dog stays solid then start gradually adding little bits of the food. If dog stays solid reduce eggs and potato until dog is back on just Wainwrights.

If dog goes loose again when you re-introduce the food then try starving again and follow the same process. If the dog goes loose again then change the food and a trip to the vets is a good idea (they will advise the starve/bland food/re-introduce anyway before looking at him). Try something a bit blander like a chicken and rice or salmon and potato dried food version. Some dogs just can't handle rich foods.


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## Dave the dog (2 August 2015)

Totally correct. starve your dog one day a week. the same day and then he will learn to expect it and his body will go into detox mode. He will remain healthy, not get fat and live long. Dogs in the wild don't eat every day and it doesn't bother them because they are fit. Dogs can turn almost anything into protein their guts are extremely efficient He still needs the same amount of exercise just no food. every hunting trip doesn't have to be successful.


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## Bellasophia (2 August 2015)

I would get his poo tested for parasites.
.....then  ,consider a change of food with a completely different protein source.


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## Dobermonkey (2 August 2015)

How much food do you give him per meal?  Giving them too much can cause loose poo   I'd also cut out any treats whatsoever


A rule of thumb (raw feeding not sure if it applies to everything but as its wet trays?) is 2-3% of their target body weight a day.  So say he's 5kg that between 100 and 150gms per day. Even if you use that as a rough guide to gauge whether he is having too much?


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## Alec Swan (2 August 2015)

Dave the dog said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. . starve your dog one day a week. the same day and then he will learn to expect it and his body will go into detox mode. He will remain healthy, not get fat and live long. Dogs in the wild don't eat every day and it doesn't bother them because they are fit. Dogs can turn almost anything into protein their guts are extremely efficient He still needs the same amount of exercise just no food. every hunting trip doesn't have to be successful.
		
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Correct.  I've only ever fed my dogs six days a week,  and they're better for it.

Alec.


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## Cinnamontoast (2 August 2015)

Gonna buck this starve the dog one day a week thing. It's not normal for domesticated dogs to starve one day a week and is pointless. Dogs, like horses, thrive on routine, at least for food. There'd be a mutiny here if I didn't open the fridge at 6 o'clock! Zak sits and whines if I come home and don't feed him. Why would I starve my dogs? They're extremely active and lean: they need their food. 

If the dog is producing slop, add kaolin to his bowl. Maybe give the grain free wainwright trays a go or go for something natural and unprocessed-Nature's Diet, maybe. He might do better on a fish based diet. I hear Wainwright's Fishmongers is good.


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## Amymay (2 August 2015)

You don't need to starve him,  Just find a food that suits him.


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## satinbaze (2 August 2015)

It all depends what you mean by loose poo. Using the Bristol stool chart type 1 is like small pebbles, type 2 like s bunch of grapes, type 3 a corn on the cob, type 4 a smooth sausage, type 5 Mr whippy ice cream, type 6 porridge and type 7 is gravy/water. 
1 & 2 would be considered constipated, 3,4,5 are "normal" and 6 & 7 diarrhoea. 
If just on the Mr whippy side then you could try adding tinned pumpkin to the diet as the fibre helps regulate the bowel, pre biotic a are also useful


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## Slave2Magic (2 August 2015)

It's abit strange really. He can have normal sausage poos in the garden and runs when we go out. Sometimes the garden ones are runny too. They have been on Wainwrights for ages but I think I'll give the Fishmongers a try as it's for sensitive dogs.


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## Cinnamontoast (2 August 2015)

My older boy is on Wainwright trays and does type 3, I suppose. He does have raw occasionally, mostly bony chicken. He's a very sensitive thing, pukes tripe straight up so can't be on pure raw. When he's not on form, he gets the grain free trays and I have Fishmongers as a back up with kaolin from the chemist.


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## JillA (2 August 2015)

Can often indicate his gut bacteria aren't working well to break down his food for absorption through the gut wall. Your vet will supply a good probiotic paste in a syringe, a few ml a day for four or five days should sort it. Or you can buy a less effective over the counter version but I would go for the better one before he begins to lose weight or get dehydrated


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## Alec Swan (2 August 2015)

JillA said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. . Your vet will supply a good probiotic paste in a syringe, a few ml a day for four or five days should sort it. &#8230;&#8230;..
		
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Failing that,  and if you keep horses or sheep,  and your dog attempts to eat the effluent,  don't stop him.  Ruminants and horses provide the best probiotics available.  Cheap too!

Alec.


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## abb123 (2 August 2015)

I don't starve mine one day a week. I only starve them if they have diarrhoea that has lasted more than a day or two. Mine are fine on their food but they eat so much rubbish on their walks (rotten jellyfish?!?) that occasionally they get upset tummies. 

The starve/bland food/ then reintroduce is the best way to get them over the diarrhoea and it will be what your vets will advise you to do before they try anything else. 

.. and I find they are much better after a good munch on the horse poo too!


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## {97702} (2 August 2015)

Oh dear, I can't believe there are people who advocate starving the dog one day a week - how silly, and unnecessary.  

Dogs have evolved somewhat since they were wild animals who had to gorge feed while the food was available, and therefore benefited from starving themselves once a week.  Nowadays dogs are fed a good quality consistent diet so starving is totally unnecessary and outdated.

I would do as others have said OP - starve, bland food, re-introduce and if he still doesn't get on with it then change to something else

ETA - I would also agree with whoever said get him tested - possible guardia?


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## Sandstone1 (2 August 2015)

abb123 said:



			Starve the dog for 24 hours then start back on just scrambled eggs and some boiled potato. If dog stays solid then start gradually adding little bits of the food. If dog stays solid reduce eggs and potato until dog is back on just Wainwrights.

If dog goes loose again when you re-introduce the food then try starving again and follow the same process. If the dog goes loose again then change the food and a trip to the vets is a good idea (they will advise the starve/bland food/re-introduce anyway before looking at him). Try something a bit blander like a chicken and rice or salmon and potato dried food version. Some dogs just can't handle rich foods.
		
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Starving is no longer recommended for diarrhoea ( by up to date vets anyway) a bland diet ie chicken and rice fed little and often is best.
Tests should be carried out to check for things like campylobactor, ecoli etc


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## Hanson (2 August 2015)

Seek vetinary advice.


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## SadKen (2 August 2015)

Mine had loose poos forever until I realised he's gluten intolerant, so now he's on Skinner's hypoallergenic.  I tried raw which really did a great job of producing some decent solid poo, but it just wasn't practical - I used minces but there was blood all over my fridge and it smelled, so I had to draw a line. Now when he goes a little sloppy on the kibble, I give him raw for a couple of days (those individual country hunter meals) which seems to sort out his gut bacteria and he'll be fine for a month or so on the kibble.

I liked feeding raw, it's just a shame it was impractical for us.


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## Dave the dog (2 August 2015)

well here goes. I'm on collie no 4 he's 10 looks like 5. all of them starved 1 day a week unless the weather is bitter. toast and marmite for breakfast 2 or 3 days a week, evening meal random time of different foods, sometimes dried sometimes raw sometimes cooked sometimes family leftovers often get garlic added. 1st 2 died at 14, 3rd at 16 old age i guess. Never ever taken to the vet for disease or disorders only flea infestation in 40 years of owning dogs was last year, never given dietary supplement or conditioning. Dogs have been constant companions they have gone where i have gone.  They have all been alert, obedient, fine, happy, healthy, sociable animals no weird hangups no frenzied attacks, no problems, well maybe the odd cold. Same regime as Granfather used for his gun dogs. Tell me I've been doing it wrong. I have nothing against vets they are fine people, but I would rather someone else kept them in business.
 As a caveat to the above for smaller breeds my jack for instance he just gets reduced rations on Starvation day I am not a complete monster.


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## Cinnamontoast (3 August 2015)

But you have given no good reason to starve the dog. I can chuck ideas around about insulin resistance, but it's pointless if you aren't coming up with a decent reason as to why you do it. They're not wild animals, they're domesticated dogs. Your dogs probably won't suffer from not being fed for one day, but what is the point? My lot are far too active to have nothing in the engine for a whole day. 

Consider an athlete: do you think they should not eat for a day? My lot 'perform' daily, galloping round, swimming a lot. Why would I deny them the energy giving food? And how come the jack gets food but the bigger dog doesn't? Where's the logic? 

PS: toast? Again, not going to harm, but a bit pointless, tbh.


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## twiggy2 (3 August 2015)

abb123 said:



			Starve the dog for 24 hours then start back on just scrambled eggs and some boiled potato. If dog stays solid then start gradually adding little bits of the food. If dog stays solid reduce eggs and potato until dog is back on just Wainwrights.

If dog goes loose again when you re-introduce the food then try starving again and follow the same process. If the dog goes loose again then change the food and a trip to the vets is a good idea (they will advise the starve/bland food/re-introduce anyway before looking at him). Try something a bit blander like a chicken and rice or salmon and potato dried food version. Some dogs just can't handle rich foods.
		
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starving is only recommended when it is thought the dog has a stomach bug (same sort of thing as humans get) and have sickness and or diahorrea, Op it sounds like you dog may have a sensitivity to something in his diet or maybe a parasite. 
How long has it been like this for?


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## twiggy2 (3 August 2015)

JillA said:



			Can often indicate his gut bacteria aren't working well to break down his food for absorption through the gut wall. Your vet will supply a good probiotic paste in a syringe, a few ml a day for four or five days should sort it. Or you can buy a less effective over the counter version but I would go for the better one before he begins to lose weight or get dehydrated
		
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live yoghurt and horse poo (as long as horse not on drugs or recently wormed) are cheaper more efficient and natural ways to re colonise the gut


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## twiggy2 (3 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Failing that,  and if you keep horses or sheep,  and your dog attempts to eat the effluent,  don't stop him.  Ruminants and horses provide the best probiotics available.  Cheap too!

Alec.
		
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effluent is not good for anything but fresh poop is


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## twiggy2 (3 August 2015)

Dave the dog said:



			well here goes. I'm on collie no 4 he's 10 looks like 5. all of them starved 1 day a week unless the weather is bitter. toast and marmite for breakfast 2 or 3 days a week, evening meal random time of different foods, sometimes dried sometimes raw sometimes cooked sometimes family leftovers often get garlic added. 1st 2 died at 14, 3rd at 16 old age i guess. Never ever taken to the vet for disease or disorders only flea infestation in 40 years of owning dogs was last year, never given dietary supplement or conditioning. Dogs have been constant companions they have gone where i have gone.  They have all been alert, obedient, fine, happy, healthy, sociable animals no weird hangups no frenzied attacks, no problems, well maybe the odd cold. Same regime as Granfather used for his gun dogs. Tell me I've been doing it wrong. I have nothing against vets they are fine people, but I would rather someone else kept them in business.
 As a caveat to the above for smaller breeds my jack for instance he just gets reduced rations on Starvation day I am not a complete monster.
		
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I lost my first dog at 16, my second at 15 (crap hips), my third at 17 (despite being run over twice) my fourth at 8 (would have been lost before 6 without vet intervention, she blew her cruciate crashing into a tree and that blew again hence PTS), my dogs have been vaccinated and had vet intervention when needed, they had never been starved unless there was a medical reason. mine have all been happy, sociable, well adjusted very active and very healthy too.
garlic is known to be toxic to dogs, the whole starving them is outdated and has no relevance to wild dogs unless you also allow them to gorge on the days you feed them, some wild dogs go weeks without food without any lasting ill effects but you don't advocate that?
I just don't see the link my dogs are not wild nor are yours so I don't understand the one day starving-our ancestors used to go days/weeks at a time with no food or warmth but I would not thank you if I had to live like that now


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## PucciNPoni (3 August 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			starving is only recommended when it is thought the dog has a stomach bug (same sort of thing as humans get) and have sickness and or diahorrea, Op it sounds like you dog may have a sensitivity to something in his diet or maybe a parasite. 
How long has it been like this for?
		
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actually, at a nutrition seminar I attended recently, I learned that starving is no longer the preferred thing.


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## JillA (3 August 2015)

Years ago I acquired a rescue dog who turned out to have distemper. Vets were to say the least unhelpful, and then I found a book by a lady called Juliette de Bairarcly Levy (sp?) who propounded that no animal can cope with fighting disease as well as digesting food. Withholding food for the duration was her remedy, just plenty of water, with added honey if it was felt the dog did need more nutrition. The dog recovered under this regime, and for years I followed her maintenance recommendations of one day/week fasting (but with adequate fluids). That dog eventually died of lymphoma some 12 years later.
She also recommended raw food BTW.


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## Alec Swan (3 August 2015)

PucciNPoni said:



			actually, at a nutrition seminar I attended recently, I learned that starving is no longer the preferred thing.
		
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Possibly semantics,  but the word 'Fasting',  in the opinion of many,  benefits both dogs and man,  and 'Starvation',  neither.  Clearly dogs which are in any way 'unwell' need all the help that they can get,  but gut upsets in dogs,  such is the resilience of their digestive system,  are generally the result of unsuitable diet rather than disease.  Further,  I'd suggest,  dogs which are generally unwell will display a general lethargy,  whilst dogs with loose stools again 'generally' show no outward signs of ill health.  That's always been my experience.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (3 August 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			effluent is not good for anything but fresh poop is
		
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'Effluent' was the wrong word,  thank you!  At the time of posting,  it was that,  or s**t!! 

Alec.


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## Cinnamontoast (3 August 2015)

Starving a dog is the only recourse if it is persistently vomiting. Sticking food down Brig when he's having one of his pukey days obviously leads to more puking because he has something to puke up. Other than that, I see no reason to stop feeding a dog. 

I noted with interest that the last time one of mine had a GA, the vet told me to feed him his normal food as opposed to chicken/fish. Makes sense. 

Alec, what's your reason for not feeding one day?


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## twiggy2 (3 August 2015)

PucciNPoni said:



			actually, at a nutrition seminar I attended recently, I learned that starving is no longer the preferred thing.
		
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can I ask who held the seminar as all the vets I work with including lots of locums currently all still recommend withholding food for 12 -24hrs for a dog that is otherwise bright healthy and alert if they had an upset stomach without a temperature, the advice is only relevant if the upset stomach was for less than 48hrs with no yellow or black poo


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## twiggy2 (3 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			'Effluent' was the wrong word,  thank you!  At the time of posting,  it was that,  or s**t!! 

Alec.
		
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s**t would do ;-)


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## Alec Swan (3 August 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			..

Alec, what's your reason for not feeding one day?
		
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A good question to which there's no scientific answer.  I've always found that somehow,  if they're allowed to rest the gut for what's effectively 48 hours,  all those dogs which I've had have benefited.  When not in work,  they seem to be somehow more 'trim'!

I think that it benefits all dogs to rely upon their 'reserves' of fat build up,  and energy too.

Alec.


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## JillA (3 August 2015)

Dogs are domesticated, yes, but they have evolved from and still are genetically similar to predators who only eat what they can catch and kill, and that may be only every other or even every third day. There was a recorded instance of a dog who was under a house which collapsed in the blitz. Several weeks later he was found, thin but alive thanks to water he was able to lick, but he had no food in that period. Sometimes I think we feed our dogs too much too often for their genetic make up.


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## Alec Swan (3 August 2015)

JillA said:



			Dogs are domesticated, yes, but they have evolved from and still are genetically similar to predators &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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It's strange that no matter for how many years (thousands!),  Dogs,  Sheep,  Cattle and yes,  Horses too retain much the same characteristics as their now wild or original origins.  Dogs in the wild are pack animals,  just as they are within domestication.  Sheep have always flocked and Cattle formed herds.  Little changes,  no matter how clever we may have been.

Alec.


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## abb123 (3 August 2015)

I didn't know dog poo could be so controversial


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## Dave the dog (3 August 2015)

I think the day of famine also keeps them more keen, or quick witted, possibly less clumsy. though that will probably be poo poohed. Having re-read my earlier post I see i forgot to mention the carrot on garlic day's.


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## Cinnamontoast (3 August 2015)

Less clumsy? I honestly don't know where you're coming from on this. One of mine is clumsy, his brother is far more agile, nimble, both fed exactly the same. I think you might want to do some research on fast days, it's a very passé theory, IMO. From what you've said, I can't see why you do it. 

As for trim, Alec, my lot are lean, mean fighting machines. I just don't over feed them and they get plenty of exercise. This one's 12 and gallops everywhere.


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## Dave the dog (3 August 2015)

Beautiful dog congratulations


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## Cinnamontoast (3 August 2015)

Dave the dog said:



			Beautiful dog congratulations
		
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Thank you, we should've shown him, he's brilliant. I'd always go for workers in future, the others are pet bred and very different.


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## {97702} (3 August 2015)

I am PMSL at some of the claims that are being attributed to the fact that the poster starves their dog one day a week....my dogs are exactly the right weight because - guess what - I adjust their food as needed   And they are sharp and quick because - guess what - they are healthy and happy   Who knew.....


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## maxapple (9 August 2015)

My male JRT is the same - he would go through bouts of very runny poo's and had a very bad episode a few months ago. I had to work my way through lots of different food until I found one which suited him (for 6 months he could only eat fresh chicken or salmon and special gastrointestinal biscuits by royal canin)

I've finally found a pet food he can eat https://www.webbox.co.uk/products/dog/webbox-natural-tray-chicken it's gluten and wheat free and very palatable. I have also recently added Lily's kitchen biscuits so I can save the gastro intestinal biscuits for when he has a bout of upset tummy. 

It took me about 5 years to find the right food for him! He is very fussy and won't eat most dog foods! What worked was taking him off dog food altogether (apart from his special biscuits) and then introducing the webbox food slowly which he enjoys.


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## Micky (9 August 2015)

try a tbsp of natural yogurt in his feed x3 a week for a few weeks to help the stomach sort out its good and bad bacteria out, worked well on my old bitch and on my horses.


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## cremedemonthe (9 August 2015)

pumpkin seeds firms them up too


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## Alec Swan (9 August 2015)

cremedemonthe said:



			pumpkin seeds firms them up too
		
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Really?  I'm not doubting you,  just surprised!   There was someone on here,  once upon a time,  who said that tinned 'Chappie' was the stuff to sort out loose tummies.  She swore by it!

With calves and lambs too,  and with those which are scouring,  then salt is often administered.  It's certainly effective.  Is there any evidence that salt would have the same effects upon a dog?  I don't know either,  just asking! 

Alec.


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## Cinnamontoast (9 August 2015)

Salt is contraindicated for dogs. Chappie tins (never the dried, it contains carcinogens) is basically lots of rice and white fish or chicken, extremely bland, so just like the bland stuff a vet might recommend.


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## cremedemonthe (10 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Really?  I'm not doubting you,  just surprised!   There was someone on here,  once upon a time,  who said that tinned 'Chappie' was the stuff to sort out loose tummies.  She swore by it!

With calves and lambs too,  and with those which are scouring,  then salt is often administered.  It's certainly effective.  Is there any evidence that salt would have the same effects upon a dog?  I don't know either,  just asking! 

Alec.
		
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Yes pumpkin seeds, good for runny tummies in dogs, raw feeders sometimes use it when first introducing dogs to raw food if they get a bit runny in their output.
Plenty on the net about if you look


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## Alec Swan (10 August 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			Salt is contraindicated for dogs. &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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Thanks for that,  and ever keen to learn  I did a bit of research!  I found VetsMD  and they too warned of the dire consequences attached to allowing dogs to have salt.  They also advised against feeding the following;

Raw Meat and Fish
Raw meat and raw fish, like raw eggs, can contain bacteria that causes food poisoning. In addition, certain kinds of fish such as salmon, trout, shad, or sturgeon can contain a parasite that causes "fish disease" or "salmon poisoning disease." If not treated, the disease can be fatal within 2 weeks. The first signs of illness are vomiting, fever, and big lymph nodes. Thoroughly cooking the fish will kill the parasite and protect your dog. 

Fat Trimmings and Bones
Table scraps often contain meat fat that a human didn't eat as well as bones. Both are dangerous for dogs. Fat trimmed from meat, both cooked and uncooked, can cause pancreatitis. And, although it seems natural to give a dog a bone, he can choke on it. Bones can also splinter and cause an obstruction or lacerations of your dog's digestive system. It's best to just forget about the doggie bag. 

Raw Eggs
There are two problems with giving your dog raw eggs. The first is the possibility of food poisoning from bacteria like Salmonella or E. coli. The second is that an enzyme in raw eggs interferes with the absorption of a particular B vitamin. This can cause skin problems as well as problems with your dog's coat if she's been eating them for a long time. 

With such priceless gems,  I'm also wondering if their opinion on the ingestion of salt is equally valid!  We're continually lectured today about what we should and shouldn't feed dogs.  Last year and having read on here that there are certain no-nos for dogs,  and as an experiment,  I offered my dogs; Grapes,  Avocado and Chocolate, and not one of them would touch any of my offerings.

I'll be truthful with you C-t,  I sometimes wonder just who these people are who advise us about dog food.  All my dogs will eat what comes out of the tail end of horses,  cattle and sheep.  I've also had the odd Cocker which takes a delight in eating not just their own excreta but that of other dogs too,  I've had dogs eat the putrefying remains of dead birds and animals,  and one visiting Yellow Lab bitch who excelled herself and once grabbed,  killed and ate in it's entirety,  a complete hedgehog!  Never,  in 50 years have I had a dog which has eaten anything which disagreed with it that I'm aware of,  and certainly none that died as a result.

I believe that the feeding of dogs is down to simple common sense,  something which seems alien to many who write learned papers.

Alec.


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## Dave the dog (10 August 2015)

Here Here !  My lad will enjoy an occasional banana too.


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## satinbaze (10 August 2015)

cremedemonthe said:



			Yes pumpkin seeds, good for runny tummies in dogs, raw feeders sometimes use it when first introducing dogs to raw food if they get a bit runny in their output.
Plenty on the net about if you look
		
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Tinned pumpkin is also good for loose poo as it helps to bulk up the poo due to the high fibre content. Unfortunately it is not easy to buy in the UK. Waitrose sell it and you can order it online at tesco but not in their stores. It costs £2 a tin but is well worth having s tin in the cupboard. I also make treats with it that the dogs love because of the natural sweetness. An American friend is threatening to bring cases of the stuff over as it is easy to buy in the U.S.


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## Cinnamontoast (10 August 2015)

Like I keep saying, vets have almost no training on nutrition. I would completely ignore them re food and I certainly wouldn't buy the rubbish they tout in the surgeries.


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## Alec Swan (10 August 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			Like I keep saying, vets have almost no training on nutrition. &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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Agreed,  and I only know of one vet who's what I'd call competent at handling a dog.  Do we expect an NHS Surgeon to also be a psychiatrist or a dietician?  Of course we don't,  so just why vets dish out advice,  and why so many listen to them,  is beyond me.

Alec.

A disclaimer;  There will be the odd vet who understands dogs through experience,  but they're a bit thin on the ground!


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## {97702} (10 August 2015)

satinbaze said:



			Tinned pumpkin is also good for loose poo as it helps to bulk up the poo due to the high fibre content. Unfortunately it is not easy to buy in the UK. Waitrose sell it and you can order it online at tesco but not in their stores. It costs £2 a tin but is well worth having s tin in the cupboard. I also make treats with it that the dogs love because of the natural sweetness. An American friend is threatening to bring cases of the stuff over as it is easy to buy in the U.S.
		
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If your American friend does that then do please let me know


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## minesadouble (10 August 2015)

satinbaze said:



			Tinned pumpkin is also good for loose poo as it helps to bulk up the poo due to the high fibre content. Unfortunately it is not easy to buy in the UK. Waitrose sell it and you can order it online at tesco but not in their stores. It costs £2 a tin but is well worth having s tin in the cupboard. I also make treats with it that the dogs love because of the natural sweetness. An American friend is threatening to bring cases of the stuff over as it is easy to buy in the U.S.
		
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Our Vizsla had an attack of colitis a few months ago and we were advised to re-introduce solid foods with baked sweet potato or squash and a little poached chicken. It worked for us and am guessing the Squash and Pumpkin are closely related.


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## AllTheBees (1 September 2015)

Could be down to a parasite or a bacterial overgrowth.  If its chronic, certainly worth getting a vet to check folate levels and test a faecal sample.  Especially if there hasn't been a change in diet.


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## lawa (2 September 2015)

My dad has a JRT x God Knows What... he has reccuring runny tum ( also on waignwrights) we use a scrambled egg natural binder, tinned pumpkin ( if you can find it amazon is good) and chicken and rice.


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## Aru (2 September 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Thanks for that,  and ever keen to learn  I did a bit of research!  I found VetsMD  and they too warned of the dire consequences attached to allowing dogs to have salt.  They also advised against feeding the following;
Raw Meat and Fish

Fat Trimmings and Bones

Raw Egg

With such priceless gems,  I'm also wondering if their opinion on the ingestion of salt is equally valid! 
I believe that the feeding of dogs is down to simple common sense,  something which seems alien to many who write learned papers.

Alec. 

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I also agree that the feeding of dogs is down to common sense but I'm going to disagree with you about your priceless gems I am afraid.

That information is from an american site.

This is relevant as Salmon poisoning is an issue in certain regions of America. Its due to a parasite found in several different types of fish including salmon. Given thats its frequently fatal its not really surprising that a veterinary website from this region advises against exposing your dog to it and saying how you can prevent it being an issue by cooking is just common sense surely? http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=3172


Fat trimmings and fatty meals can trigger pancreatitis in predisposed dogs. Thats entirely true. A fatty meal is a very common cause of acute pancreatitis. Pancreatitis also a serious illness that most people would like to avoid so again valid advise. 
Will fat trimmings kill all dogs .nope. will it kill some. yes. would I advise you to feed your dogs fatty meals if you were a client-no that would be irresponsible of me given I know the potential consequences. Have I fed my own dogs fatty trimmings...yes and she loved it but I was aware of the risk.

Bones. I hate bones. I hate bones because I hate doing enemas on dogs.  
Guess what is the main reason we do enemas on dogs....people feeding to much bone! Giving your small terrier 3-5 chicken wings and saying thats its the perfect diet for that dog and implying I know nothing about canine nutrition makes me a tad annoyed. Having to GA said ancient small terrier and give it an enema because its screaming when it tries to defecate or when anyone touches its abdomen (for the second time in 6 months) makes me want to head desk. Having said client insist that the issues wasn't due to diet made me wonder about the future of humanity.

That said I can see the benefit of the bone,most dogs tolerate it quite well,good for teeth and good source of minerals..but again Moderation is key to success...

Do bones occasionally splinter internally and kills dogs.Yes,yes they do. Have seen that one. 
Do dogs occasionally choke on bones.yes yes they do-seen that several times. 
However plenty of other surprising objects that are sold as chew toys for dogs also do both those things. Sticks are fierce dangerous that way...because some creatures are just unlucky. 
Again up to the owner to decide their risk based on the information provided.
A vets job is often to provide information.
Clients choice to decide what they want for their own pet.

Eggs. All of the info above is true. Its also true of humans.
Does that mean I would never eat raw eggs myself nope I'm happy to take that risk. Would I advise you feed your yorkie/shihpoo/chi etc 2 eggs a day..erm no. longterm risk is proportional to body size.

If I worked in suing happy america would I advise my clients against giving all of those things if asked in an exam room. Yes I would. Thankfully I do not work in that sort of area and have had the moderation is key talk plenty of times with normal clients.

I would be much more risk adverse if I knew it could drag me through several months of court cases if I advised bone feeding and a clients dog died due to said bone splintering internally as a consequence...as has happened to vets in america on more than one occasion. 

On a separate note. I have no issues with people feeding raw to dogs if they feed it as a complete diet and try to actually ensure their dog has a balanced diet. I would consider feeding it myself if I wasn't so disorganised in life. 

However I would never advise it to a client.
1 due to the risk to human health 
2 due to the canine health risk and 
3 as the only nutritional deficiencies I have ever seen in dogs have been from puppies and young adult dogs being raw fed. I know what rickets looks like in a puppy thanks to raw feeding done incorrectly,they mostly fixed with correct diet.what it looks like in an adult is worse-they are crippled for life.
Some people are very good at researching and diets....this is not true of all people. I usually like to tell people to do their own research into the diets and balancing them,consider using a commercially prepared one and give them a pro's and con's list but  say cannot advise the diet personally as I would not feel comfortable balancing it correctly for a growing puppy myself. Most vets will not consider them point blank as to risky.

The joy about the "trash" we advise people feed dogs is that it doesn't give puppies rickets if their owner is an idiot. Its generally safe to handle and not a danger to the immunocompromised.

Are the standard veterinary foods ideal. Nope not for all dogs. 
Will most dogs do reasonably well on them. Yes. 
Are they overpriced. Sometimes,vets are a business not a charity we mark up almost everything otherwise we would not be able to function. 
The majority of dogs will do well (ie keep weight on and eat the food) almost any complete dog food. It is regulated by law that certain food standards must be adhered to regards what must be included in a complete food.
Would I feed my dog the like's of bakers.nope.
will plenty of dogs do just fine and live to a good age on bakers in spite of the crap thats in it. yes, yes they will. MY childhood dogs lived on scraps and occasional bags of working dog mix...dogs are adjustable and designed to cope on a varied diet to a certain extent.
A lot of dogs food nutrition out their is just company marketing and individual preference. 
Grain free diets are the new expensive fad. Most dogs tolerate grain....do they need it ..questionable in an scavenging carnivore. will it cause long term damage,nope, not unless the dog has other underlying issues or sensitivities. 

The prescription diets however are a different kettle of fish-I'm not a massive fan of hills and royal canins tactics in many many areas but they do very good work in clinical nutrition.Those diets can make a massive difference to clinical outcomes and are key in managing several diseases. I am quite a big fan but wish they could make them more palatable.

We do a certain amount of nutrition in collage. In the early years we covered the normal nutritional demands and are taught the basics of nutrition for each species. At least 1 full module(might have been 2 or 3 not sure collage modules are all a bit of a blur at this stage and i hated nutrition!) on nutrition as it happens so hours and hours of torture over a years 1 and 2.In the later years its almost all focused on clinical nutrition cases rather than day to day basic nutrition.
The companies who sell the prescription diets do give optional lectures and try and push their foods(good marketing opportunity) but shockingly I was not brainwashed into offering their products to everyone I see. My collage had a veterinary nutritionist who teaches clinical nutrition. 

To put it in prospective I spent much much more time learning about canine nutrition than I did learning about the process of spaying and castrating animals,about managing heart disease medically,about drugs for managing skin disease etc...In fact overall I spent more time in lectures on it than on the vast majority of my day to day staple disease base in clinical practice....as many diseases are only covered in a 15 minute slot in a lecture if mentioned at all.
Time spent being taught something in collage is not the same as the amount of time you spend learning and applying the knowledge. We are expected to use our heads and learn the tools to do further research into issues instead of rote learning as medicine is constantly changing.

The vast majority of vets(at least my generation anyways) have a working knowledge of nutrition but only a few study or take massive interest in it beyond the clinical disease setting(i hated it in collage but find it fascinating now)...as most dogs thrive on basic diets....and as most surgeries stock a safe food that they recommend. We kept Burns and Calibre in my last job as well as the prescription foods. Raw isn't safe yet. getting there in some of the commercial versions but not as safe as it needs to be before I would recommend it to all clients.


I agree with you in some ways Alec about the paper writers lacking common sense btw sometimes I read things and wonder did they ever work in practice or even deal with a real dog!Most tend to have a normal underlying idea...and then twist and warp it into academic language making it almost incomprehensible to the rest of us in the real world.


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## Aru (2 September 2015)

excessive salt is contraindicated for dogs for a number of reasons.
One as an excessive intake can cause vomiting-
handy to know but not ever advised to be used for this due to number two
 which is that it can **** up the electrolyte balances in the body..which can be a massive issue as changing the electrolyte balance affects the kidneys, GI tract and brain..
We are all a wonderful finely tuned lump of cells.A normal electrolyte balance lets all out cells work their set ways as a complex team and everything needs to be kept stable. A high dose of salt sets the body off trying to reset to standard.The body sets off several wonderful systems haywire as tries to fix the issue-makes the dog drink more to try and dilute their blood, raising the blood pressure to filter more through the kidneys etc.urinating more to try and remove some of the fluids.Then when that fails fluid loss from the blood vessels begins as the ratio is wrong and they stop working as they should,seizures come next and eventually coma and death if you dose high enough or the dogs is small enough/has underlying issues like dodgy kidneys that cannot help reset the balance.

Its given in IV drips at set rates as standard and we increase it in certain cases and disease's. Its fairly well bet into us to only meddle with electrolytes if clinically necessary.Body has a tightly controlled system and it doesn't like change. Its a very finely tuned machine
So ya....don't add a bunch of salt to an already compromised small dogs system.That could be a bad idea.

Might be fine because again everything in moderation and a bigger issue in a small dog then a large one as its dose dependent.but potentially nasty.


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## Aru (2 September 2015)

OP if your dogs had chronic diarrhoea that hasn't cleared up with changes to bland food. (I like chappie for dodgy tums-bland cheap and palatable) and a basic dewormer then its worth a trip to the vet if its bothering you.

There is a list of possible reasons for constant loose poo's. Some benign reasons like parasites and bacterial overload,some a little nasty like organ dysfunction.

Rule out the obvious with food and worms and go from there. 
If he hasnt cleared up after the obvious has been done then you would be as well to have him checked out.


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## Bellasophia (2 September 2015)

aru..what an informative post,thanks for putting in the time to write that.


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