# Another Bitting Thread - what bit for large tongue, low palate?



## JustMe22 (16 August 2012)

As title really! Have a TB who has always been in a snaffle. Didn't like the KK Ultra, so switched him to a plain french link which he is better in. He does chomp it too much though, especially in halt, and pulls his tongue up as he chews it (doesn't get it over the bit, but he doesn't seem comfortable). He's better when not stood still, but not ideal. 

Upon inspection of his mouth I (and instructor) have found he has a large tongue and low palate, which also explains his hatred of the ported pelham I tried once before a show!

Horse does dressage and SJ, but same bit for everything. He isn't strong so don't need something for added control, but as mentioned does chew his bit rather too much and doesn't stay at all 'settled' in his mouth. At the moment thinking of switching to a thinner french link, as I think he needs a bit more space in his mouth. Would be interested to hear if people think any of the "new" bits - i.e. myler, neue schule (cannot spell that at all) would suit him or not!

Needs a 6 inch bit, if that helps


----------



## KatB (16 August 2012)

Try a myler French link with egg but or loose ring. It's small and neat in the joints, and curver so wraps around the tongue )


----------



## Archiepoo (16 August 2012)

my anglo arab has a very large tongue and low palate and not much room at all in his mouth ,he goes lovely in a loose ring french link ,it came with him but i think its a sprenger


----------



## TarrSteps (16 August 2012)

Take this in the spirit in which it's intended . . . does he need that large a bit?  That's very large and I'd wonder if it's hanging too low on his tongue and irritating him?

I find horses that fiddle as a habit are often better in a shaped single joint or even a mullen mouth/Myler comfort snaffle/Informed Bitting type bit with little or no play in it.  Sometimes a full cheek (not a Fulmer) with keepers can help hold everything steady, or a hanging cheek to hold the bit up and away from the tongue a little (not really what they're designed for but makes some horses more comfortable).

The noseband can also make a difference to fiddly horses. Is that a flash or a grakle in your sig?  It's very low if it's a flash but either way, I'd be more inclined to try a properly fitted drop or even step back to a loose-ish cavesson.  I'm rather inclined to at least start solving problems by doing less rather than more.


----------



## JustMe22 (16 August 2012)

Tarr Steps - Totally valid question, but yes he does  I always had him in a 5.5inch by default, but looked at it, and it is definitely pinching. Got my instructor and YO to check for a second opinion and both agreed. He is in the 5.5 at the moment, but we think this is part of the problem (it's also quite hard to find a 6 inch over here, maybe less so in the UK).

As for the noseband - yes that is a flash, and yes it is very low! However, that was when I first got him (a long time ago) and it was adjusted soon after! He is now in a plain  cavesson with no flash or anything. Tried him in a drop but cannot find one to fit at all, nor anybody to make one!

Thanks for the suggestions, I will look for a mullen mouth or something similar to try on him 

Archiepoo - he is in a loose ring french link now. That will be my first port of call, to just try his normal bit but smaller. He was in the Sprenger before, but hated it!


----------



## Scarlett (16 August 2012)

My boy is similar and showed a marked improvement in his acceptance of the bit when I swapped him into a single joint NS Demi-Anky. I think the lozenge one he was in - NS starter bit - just had too much play. We have loads less chomping, is softer, less inclined to invert and more consistant. The Demi-Anky is shaped unlike a lot of the old school single joint and doesn't seem to hit the roof of his mouth it also seems to sit really nicely over his big fat tongue and he's certainly happier...!


----------



## TarrSteps (16 August 2012)

JustMe22 said:



			Tarr Steps - Totally valid question, but yes he does  I always had him in a 5.5inch by default, but looked at it, and it is definitely pinching. Got my instructor and YO to check for a second opinion and both agreed. He is in the 5.5 at the moment, but we think this is part of the problem (it's also quite hard to find a 6 inch over here, maybe less so in the UK).
		
Click to expand...

Big mouth horse!  

That might be another reason to try something with a less mobile joint, as many horses need to step up a size in such a bit.  

Also, with another cheek configuration you would not get the pinching so might be able to go with something a little narrower to "stretch" the bit in the horse's mouth slightly.  Loose ring french links will almost always collapse and bring the rings against the lips, even (maybe especially) if the bit in on the large side - bit guards can be a help but obviously not an option for dressage.  Perhaps a similar bit in a different cheek would suit him better?


----------



## JustMe22 (16 August 2012)

KatB, sorry I forgot to reply in my last post! Will look at the comfort snaffle - instructor said I should possibly have a look at Mylers. Its a bit tricky as I have to import them at great expense but if it makes a marked difference then that's ok!

Scarlett - googling the demi-anky now. He used to get very resistant, but I have had a minor breakthrough recently with lots of walk work, suppling etc and he has spent the last few sessions staying fairly soft. However, he *has* always been one of those tricky ones who wasn't keen on accepting the bit and going soft. If the bit is actually impeding this, then it's obviously my fault in a big way so if a different bit can help me I will be a happy chappy 

ETA: The demi-anky seems to be a gag bit? Unless there's a snaffle version too, but I can't find it. I don't want to take him out of a snaffle. Partly because I compete in dressage, but mostly because he sucks back in stronger bits and won't take a contact.

Tarr Steps..big mouth horse indeed!  Especially for a TB! He does like to be contrary though 

I must admit, I've never tried him in anything other than loose ring. I've often wondered, but never really figured out if he likes play with the mouthpiece or not. Maybe I should try an eggbut? What exactly do you mean by a narrower bit? Thinner or 'shorter', so 5.5 vs 6? Sorry, being a bit thick today!


----------



## TarrSteps (16 August 2012)

The Demi Anky is the mouthpiece, with the curved arms.  I actually have an almost identically shaped old snaffle but cannot for the life of me find another one - I wonder if NS took out a patent and made everyone else stop making them.  Basically it's designed so the "arms" can't close all the way which reduces the problem of pinching the tongue.  

Sorry, by narrower I meant from cheek to cheek.  (The diameter would be "thinner" for me.) Some fiddly horses actually prefer the bit to be "snug" so my only point would be your horse might take a 5.5 in something with a different cheek or mouthpiece, which would also make it easier to find one.


----------



## Firewell (16 August 2012)

Its weird but both my current horse and my last horse really didn't like lose rings and were very fussy in them. They both prefered fixed cheek bits. My last horse was in a hollowmouth eggbutt snaffle which she really liked, she hated the loosering KK spenger. Current horse is in a full cheek NS bit and he also hated my KK loose ring.. I love the NS bits, they have really delicate shaped mouthpieces, they are very light unlike the Sprenger and the horses seem to really like them, Not sure what mm mine is but it is very slender. x


----------



## Firewell (16 August 2012)

Sorry just realised I didnt answer your question!
I'd have a bit trying session, try a few including an eggbutt snaffle, a full cheek with different mouthpieces and see what he likes best. Bits are such an individual thing. You could even try a straightbar staffle or straight bar rubber snaffle.


----------



## flyingfeet (16 August 2012)

As above - an ergonomic bit is probably the way forward, rather than a single joint or straight bar 











To give you some more choices:- NS Veribindend, starter, team up, CS Tongue Saver and the Sprenger Dynamic range are all ergonomic and vary in prices


----------



## JustMe22 (16 August 2012)

I probably won't be going down the single-joint route. I have tried a straight bar rubber, but it was on a pelham (however, ridden on the snaffle ring) and he was horrible!

Firewell  (and Tarr Steps), thanks for that too. Plenty of food for thought here, maybe the trick is to try a different cheekpiece then. Younger sister may have an eggbutt in french link 5.5.inch so I could try it to see if he's any different. We do have a hanging snaffle too, which I can try..but am almost certain he won't like! There is currently no space between his mouth and the rings at all in the 5.5inch, but maybe a different cheekpiece will be fine. It is quite possible that he just needs a larger one as well, but I will have a look. at least a 5.5inch eggbutt french link should be easy enough to source 

Thank You Jen Cots, very helpful. I will look up all the bits you suggested.


----------



## TarrSteps (16 August 2012)

When you say there is no space do you mean when the bit hangs in the mouth or when you pull it gently straight? Sorry to nit pick but I'm aware of your location so know that bit banks and similar are not as available to you as in the UK, therefore if you're going to start ordering you need to be reasonably sure. 

Re the ergonomic bits, theoretically I agree and I have a couple I've used very successfully. But I wonder sometimes if this is one of those things we *think* all horses prefer when in fact all the horses may not have got the memo.  I've had a few horses over the years who seemed to find the lozenge bits either irritating or an invitation to fiddle (never been a horse so can't say for sure) and are better in something that doesn't give them the same feedback. Just a thought though and I'm no bitting expert!


----------



## JustMe22 (16 August 2012)

I wish I had a photo where you could see! Will take one tomorrow. I mean when the bit is just sitting in his mouth normally, the end (where the rings meet the bit), are right up against his face. If that makes sense? Will pull it straight tomorrow too and see how much space there is then. I wish bit banks were available! Business idea maybe? 

I can probably try the standard french link with different cheek pieces before buying, as I'm sure friends etc will have them lying around in a 5.5, if not a 6 (presumably if he prefers the cheekpiece, he will go better in it even if they are the same size..probably more reliable anyway, as a 6inch eggbutt differs in the size and the style, if that makes sense!). 
Things like NS/Myler etc are more tricky obviously, because they aren't for sale here. 

Mine doesn't seem to like the lozenges too much. My only experience is with the KK Ultra snaffle, with the lozenge in the middle..and while he didn't protest violently, he is definitely much better in a standard french link. Might again be due to the low palate/big tongue, so it might just take up too much room?

As for fiddly, he is..rather..I'm always a bit stuck on this because some say they need to 'mouth' the bit. Fine. And he always has foam on his lips etc, but I do feel that he mouths it rather too much..i.e., he has chomped marks into most of the ones we have tried. So maybe I'd be better going for something with less play in it and hoping he'll keep it a bit more still in his mouth.

Haha horses definitely don't all have the memo! Little connemara cross pony goes best in a standard single jointed snaffle...he resists in the french link


----------



## TarrSteps (16 August 2012)

Perhaps you should hit up Myler or NS to become a rep and see if they'll spot you a sample?


----------



## siennamum (16 August 2012)

Firewell said:



			Its weird but both my current horse and my last horse really didn't like lose rings and were very fussy in them. They both prefered fixed cheek bits. My last horse was in a hollowmouth eggbutt snaffle which she really liked, she hated the loosering KK spenger. Current horse is in a full cheek NS bit and he also hated my KK loose ring.. I love the NS bits, they have really delicate shaped mouthpieces, they are very light unlike the Sprenger and the horses seem to really like them, Not sure what mm mine is but it is very slender. x
		
Click to expand...

My gelding likes an eggbut too. Really fiddles with a loose ring. Likes either a single joint or old fashioned french link without too much play.


----------



## wench (16 August 2012)

My big TB really went well in a full cheek single jointed sweet iron snaffle. Really cheap, and in theory he shouldnt have liked it, but he did


----------



## FabioandFreddy (16 August 2012)

Not dressage legal - but PeeWee bits are good for large tongued horses and a lot of TB's go well in them. Freddy got along really well with it, he had a ridiculously large tongue for his mouth. I use one most of the time for Fabio after trialling and spending a small fortune on bits prior to that, this is the only one he goes nicely in. Just a shame i can't find a dressage legal alternative!


----------



## Walrus (16 August 2012)

My fell has a fleshy tongue and I don't think he has much room in his mouth. I broke him in in a neue schule starter bit and he hacked about in that. I've struggled with him in the school for the last couple of years for a number of reasons. But recently we've been making some bit changes.

My instructor noticed that in his neue schule he wasn't very happy, he was drawing his tongue back and pushing against the losenge. He actually had a white tongue as he was arguing with it so much. In the session she noticed this we switched him immediately into a borrowed mullen mouth myler egbut snaffle and the difference was instant and amazing - much stiller and happier in his mouth and working much better.

I found after 2-3 weeks in that he began leaning and being a bit heavy in the myler so I tried him in a myler comfort snaffle as it had a bit more movement but he hated it - turns out he seems to hate any sort of joint or movement. I've now got him in a myler mullen mouth hanging snaffle and it seems to be working. We're 2 weeks in so fingers crossed pony decides he likes it!!

Would definitely look at the myler mullen mouth options.


----------



## seabsicuit2 (16 August 2012)

The horsebitshop.com will be your saviour! You can trial a v wide range of bits there for ten pounds or so. And they ship overseas as well. 
They have a Anky Demi thingy eggbutt bit too! In Platinum metal for some strange reason!


----------



## JustMe22 (16 August 2012)

Thanks everyone for all the help! I am stopping off at a friend's house tomorrow (owns a yard) to try and find a 6inch or two, as well as some 5.5's in different cheeks..sounds like a lot of you have had similar experiences with the loose ring 

Will also see if I can pick up a mullen mouth and give him a try in all of these then go from there. Have never tried anything other than loose rings so maybe this will be a revelation  If nothing seems to be better I'll start looking at the expensive more "specialised" bits. 

Bomber bits are made here - anybody got an opinion on them??

Am looking at the horsebitshop now, seabiscuit. Slightly concerned about posting here as things get stolen more often than not but will have a look for sure


----------



## TarrSteps (16 August 2012)

Had forgotten that Bomber bits are from your part of the world! Definitely something useful to look at but they aren't dressage legal here or in North America so check that out before you buy.


----------



## JustMe22 (18 August 2012)

Minor update for those who may be interested/may still have advice 

I couldn't find any 6 inch bits to try, so got a whole bunch of 5.5inch ones. Not all are dressage legal but I wanted to try a few to get an idea of what he likes. So we tried a Myler Comfort Snaffle, bomber, hanging snaffle (french link) and another bomber bit but with rings in the middle that move.

He HATED the one with moving rings.

Was alright-ish in the hanging snaffle, but I don't think he likes the curb action. Was also ok-ish in the bomber

Not fantastic in the myler.

He still chomped and pulled his tongue up a lot when we halted. He's better when in motion, but always has been!

So have come to the conclusion that so far he is still best in a French link mouthpiece, but I'm now going to try and find one in a full cheek and one in an eggbutt. Will also try and find a mullen mouth.

Borrowing a 6inch french link loose ring on Thursday, so we'll see if it being bigger makes all the difference


----------



## TarrSteps (18 August 2012)

Sounds like a productive experiment thus far. 

I am still curious though. . .for a correct fit are you saying the rings do not touch the lips when there is no pressure on the reins? Does that not result in the bit sliding through the mouth when you apply a single rein aid and moving the joint off centre? And hanging quite far down the tongue at rest?

Sorry, not trying to pick but have always been taught that the arms of a snaffle should not extend past the edge of the lips, which roughly means if you pull the but straight in the mouth about a quarter inch shows on each side but no more. The theory is this holds the bit fairly stable and allows the cheeks to be used for steering without pulling the bit off centre. 

Apologies if I've misunderstood but curious to understand the reasoning of not having the rings laying more or less against the side of the lips. Is it to avoid pinching?


----------



## JustMe22 (19 August 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			Sounds like a productive experiment thus far. 

I am still curious though. . .for a correct fit are you saying the rings do not touch the lips when there is no pressure on the reins? Does that not result in the bit sliding through the mouth when you apply a single rein aid and moving the joint off centre? And hanging quite far down the tongue at rest?

Sorry, not trying to pick but have always been taught that the arms of a snaffle should not extend past the edge of the lips, which roughly means if you pull the but straight in the mouth about a quarter inch shows on each side but no more. The theory is this holds the bit fairly stable and allows the cheeks to be used for steering without pulling the bit off centre. 

Apologies if I've misunderstood but curious to understand the reasoning of not having the rings laying more or less against the side of the lips. Is it to avoid pinching?
		
Click to expand...

Please, nitpick all you want! I often find I've just accepted things I've been taught without questioning it much - very bad!

I have a photo (but on my sister's phone, so will try upload later) that demonstrates where it sits. The rings lie against his face now, so yes the pinching is the main concern when there's rein pressure and the rings move. I assume this would be less of a concern in a full cheek or eggbutt though, because there isn't that sort of hole where the rings meet the snaffle arms.


My instructor checked it and briefly explained that basically as it's too small it means it has to sit a bit too low on his tongue? That might explain how he can push it forward enough to bash his teeth. I'm not sure exactly what she meant, as she was moving to her next lesson but I'll ask her to explain it properly on Thursday.

I suppose it might also mean that too much of the snaffle is in his mouth - and they are thicker (wider diameter) towards the outside of the snaffle arms, if that makes sense?

I can see what you're saying though, I never considered it. It's very tricky! I would hate to think that I'd be pulling it through his mouth..  I was told you should be able to  see a small gap between rings and lips when the bit is just sitting there and not under pressure. Never really thought why that would be though.

I will upload the photo and see what you think - I also have one where you can see where it sits inside his mouth, which I'll upload too and maybe somebody will be able to tell me what's wrong!


----------



## TarrSteps (19 August 2012)

Honestly, I am just interested! I can see the reasoning for having the bit up higher but then doesn't it pull on the lips? I've found sometimes when the bit is too large the horse chucks it back against its teeth. Although too snug would obviously also be irritating!  Like everything else, it probably depends on all sorts of factors!

In North America D-ring bits are ubiquitous because they are the default correct tack for our show hunters, so it's standard to start horses in Ds or full cheeks. I found this works well for steering and for a lighter contact (French light schools would go with a Baucher cheek or similar) but can be too fixed for the current Continental dressage school. 

But then I was taught that technically loose rings should be used with a drop because they come originally from the European schools where this would have been the default tack. I'm a bit surprised that the loose ring is now considered the default in the UK as not that long ago you would have seen most horses in eggbutts in the English school tradition, or possibly a Fulmer if a more modern approach was being taken.

Perhaps that's because of the rise of Continental-style dressage riding, although I've got to wonder if some of it is marketing since the two big name bit makers here now are German. . ..

Anyway, that's the problem, it's not just about the bit for the horse, it's about the bit for the whole situation. Lots of horses don't jump and school in the same bridle. Many others go in different bridles for different riders, depending on not only strength but personal feel preference. Plus sometimes things just change!

Hence why every pro has a box of bits! I turned up to bit a young horse last week with the bit I thought would probably work best but half a dozen options if that turned out not to be the case.


----------



## Copperpot (19 August 2012)

My horse is the same. Big fat tongue and not much room. I use a NS verdibend and most recently have bought a bomber bit the happy tongue version. He seems to really like this bit!


----------



## TarrSteps (19 August 2012)

Just reading back, have you tried a single joint? Preferably one shaped the way Scarlett mentioned, to limit the pinching effect?


----------



## JustMe22 (19 August 2012)

Yes, it does pull on the lips! So that means I can't put it any higher than it is without it pulling on him (and making him even more unhappy), so it has to sit slightly lower than it should, if that makes sense? If the bit is slightly bigger, we feel that it might be able to go a bit higher without pulling so much.

I had considered that an eggbutt or fulmer would be better for steering, but as you say, loose ring seems to be the default and seemed the logical place to start. As it stands now, his steering is fine, but it wasn't originally  I've no idea why it's standard tack either!

He jumps, hacks and does dressage in the same tack - just a cavesson and snaffle, but I add a martingale if we're jumping anything decent, so it'd be nice to find a bit he really likes 

As for the single joint - I haven't tried him in one, no. Always just assumed he wouldn't like the nutcracker action. Obviously in a curved/shaped bit though that would be reduced drastically. Wouldn't know where to find one like that though! Might have a look round, because that presumably would have very little play, although it might push into his tongue.

A friend is lending me one of those tom thumb snaffles, but the dressage legal one (looks pretty similar to a fulmer to me!)..I figure if I try lots of types of bits I can find out what sort he likes best. I'm not sure I'm struck on the idea of the tom thumb but I'll see how it goes 

Copperpot - thanks for the suggestion.  I have tried a normal french link bomber, which he was ok-ish in, but I see the happy tongue has a port? His ported pelham was a nightmare - spent most of the time on his back legs. I can see the logic though, and maybe it might stop him pulling his tongue up. Might pop in a pelham on a snaffle rein and see what he makes of the port again, possibly just look for a very low one 


Bomber also will specially design bits, so as a last resort may look into that given that they're in SA 

Here is a pic of the bit in his mouth. Would you say it's ok, or too small Tarr Steps?


----------



## TarrSteps (19 August 2012)

He does have chubby lips, doesn't he! I wouldn't say that's way too small, although I would not even hazard a guess without seeing it pulled straight. 

Don't let me put you off, though! You know your horse best and it is definitely worth trying something larger. As you said, it's quite hard to find stock bits in a 6", which probably means there are lots of horses that might benefit from a size up!


----------



## JustMe22 (23 August 2012)

Hahaha I suppose he does, yes. I did pull it straight, and it might be just about alright. I do think a 6inch might be too big now that I've had the dangers of it explained. Maybe a 5 and 3/4..do they even do those?? Otherwise, an eggbutt snaffle may be the way to go seeing as they can't pinch.

Tried him in a different Myler snaffle today, with a slight port. Either this:
http://www.horsebitbank.com/eggbutt-comfort-snaffle-low-port-262.phtml

or this:
http://www.horsebitbank.com/eggbutt-hooks-comfort-snaffle-low-263.phtml

Not entirely sure what the difference is tbh!

Anyway, he wasn't amaaazing, but much better than the previous Myler and probably the best so far...so wondering now if he needs a very shallow port such that it doesn't hit the roof of his mouth but also gives him some more room for his tongue. 

ARGH..so complicated!


----------



## Copperpot (23 August 2012)

Both my bits are 5.75". 6" way too big and 5.5" rubbed. Not all makes do that size but a few do.


----------



## JustMe22 (25 August 2012)

Thanks copperpot  Will try and find one. Turns out that he goes lovely in a Dick Christian bit, of all things. To find that in a 5.75 will be tricky, to say the least!


----------



## Highlands (25 August 2012)

Bomber bits fab just a pity they are not dressage legal


----------



## JustMe22 (25 August 2012)

Very handy, them being made in South Africa and all  We struggle to get good ones here..they have a couple of dressage legal ones (here anyway!) but the ginger one doesn't like them! Typical. They will, however, custom make ones for you so may have to go that route if I can't find one for him. Only £35 too, so I can handle that


----------

