# Having a horse PTS for behavioral reason - would you? Have you?



## ecrozier (17 November 2011)

Thankfully not one of my boys but a fellow livery and good friend's mare. Brief history, bought from field as a backed and turned away rising 5 year old. Passed 5 stage, brought her home, bit unsettled and highly strung but 5 year old tb we figured wasn't exactly unexpected. Re did all groundwork etc (started from scratch) all went ok and she got on to the point of basic walk /steer/stop under saddle. However as soon as the mare was taken out of her 'comfort zone', ie a helper at her head on on a lunge, problems started. She is nappy in the extreme and will rear vertically and stand upright on hind legs for several seconds (at the time feels like minutes!). Friend is experienced and competent, and sought advice which mainly comprised of ride her forward through it. Unfortunately things slowly escalated the more the mare was asked to leave her friends/leave the yard/or on a variety of occasions go to a particular end of the school/past a scary object etc. Back teeth saddle etc all checked repeatedly by several specialists. She also does this in hand. Other days she is absolutely as sweet as you can imagine a horse to be. Eventually friend admitted this is something she can't deal with in her situation (busy job, can't ride 7 days a week or guarantee unlimited time to work through issues when they arrise. Sold her via a dealer (whole other story) but long story short she is back, having reportedly gone up and over with purchaser. 
We have no idea what they have been doing with her but she is now significantly 'wilder', is lame (deep-seated fungal infection of frog) and won't stay on box rest as jumps out or kicks her way throug door. She is wild at times in the field if turned out, and half te time won't even stand on yard - back just over a week and broken 4 leadropes. When the vet came to look at infection she stood up 6 times in 20 mins.  Other days, she is as good as gold and butter wouldn't melt. 
Friend is in a real quandary working out what to do for the best. Some people are saying breed from her (don't worry she isn't insane and therefore isn't considering that as an option!) others are saying possibly look at role as carrier mare for embryo transfer or blood bank - but she isn't exactly submissive in a herd!! 
So really what I am asking for is people's opinions and experience of the option of having her PTS for her own good, as not only is keeping her as a pet not financially viable but she is even endangering herself and others on a day to day basis on the yard..... Or alternatively any other ideas?! Thoughts?


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## ihatework (17 November 2011)

Obviously I know exactly the horse you refer to.
The owner has tried long and hard with her and there comes a point when you have to admit defeat. What you do then is quite a personal decision but IMO if you own them you have their future in your hands and owe them the right outcome. I couldn't believe it when I heard the horse was put through a dealer, I couldn't ever have that on my concience.

An ET mare really does need to be easy to handle and reliable. Blood bank, she wouldn't be their ideal type. As difficult as it is, for this particular horse, I think PTS is a very viable option if the owner isn't in the position to keep her as a pet herself. It's a horrid decision to have to make though.


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## *hic* (17 November 2011)

I wouldn't hesistate. 

Unfortunately IMHO even if a reason for her behaviour is found and a cure for the reason effected the learned behaviour is too severe to make her a reasonable prospect.


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## cptrayes (17 November 2011)

The only other horse I knew of like this was put down and the autopsy found a brain tumour. Has she been checked for polycystic ovaries and ulcers? If so, I would have her put down.


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## Cazza525 (17 November 2011)

What a sad situation! I really think that the best thing for the mare is to PTS. With other horses, then I'm sure you could turn away out in the field for a year or 2 to see whether some chill time works, but obviously this is not an option. I really would consider putting to sleep. She sounds like a danger to herself, and if sold, could be dangerous, end of.


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## ecrozier (17 November 2011)

Thanks all. Re the brain tumour suggestion, it is something that has been raised, however and I know this sounds a bit ridiculous but if you saw her, she is fully in control of all her mental faculties at all times! There is no fear in her eyes or even panic, she once had a tantrum in our yard car park which is maybe 20x20 with 6 cars and a lorry parked in it, went up again and again and again, broke free, etc.... And never so much as touched a vehicle.
IHW - agreed re dealer BUT the deal was it was disclosed that she was nappy and awkward and at that point had never gone over, and I honestly think owner had begun to think part of problem was her, especially when 'dealer' had her a month and reported they didn't have any trouble with her at all! 
Polycystic ovaries and ulcers - not sure. Would those prompt such random outbursts? Owner has previous horse with ulcers so is reasonably knowledgeable with those and hasn't flagged that up, for her type she holds weight well etc. 
Turning away for a year or two - sadly not sure it would make any odds with her. Even my non-horsey dad picked her out of the herd (had told him about her as he knows said friend) he came up to yard, looked over fence at mares and she did her normal 'stallionesque' coming round herd, moving them away and standing between them and the 'threat' (us!!)


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## ecrozier (17 November 2011)

Ps we think she did this when first backed, and was chucked back in a field, and from that point knew she could make the decisions and do what she wanted!


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## eva (17 November 2011)

I'm sure it's one of the toughest decisions to make but it sounds like PTS would make everyone's life easier. Is there any pros in keeping her? I think if a domestic animal is dangerous, and it sounds like she is, both to herself and to others, there's no point keeping them  after all, a nightmare horse is just as much to keep as a perfect one. I mean, PTS is humane these days and the animal won't even feel anything, they won't know what they're missing out on, so largely the whole emotional side is just us people feeling bad, isn't it?


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## ihatework (17 November 2011)

I was assuming she had done a full vet check - scanning ovaries / regumate would be one of the first things? If not that has to be worth a go, she'll always be an ungererous stroppy cow but a semi manageable stroppy cow might save her the bullet!


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## ecrozier (17 November 2011)

Eva, exactly, I think it's more a question of the emotional attachment (such as it is) and a feeling of having let the horse down by not sorting the problem out. But a pros/cons list might be a good way to rationalise that.


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## SusieT (17 November 2011)

sounds like bad training at some point. has she been sent away to a pro or equine behaviourist at any point ?


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## Britestar (17 November 2011)

From a slightly different point of view, if this horse were a dog, and was unreliable in its behaviour, bordering on aggresive and unpredictable, would there be any hesitation in PTS-ing it? (If all the same things had been done as with the horse to try and change the behaviour).

Your safety and that of those who have to handle her is paramount.


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## SusieT (17 November 2011)

has she had any vet exam ie rectal for ovaries, eyes tested etc?


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## ecrozier (17 November 2011)

Oh yes she tried regumate - no difference, also another hormone related supplement, also no difference. She hasn't been scoped but equally there was I think no other symptoms for ulcers, plus the behaviour is whilst random in some ways also 100% linked to temper tantrums and her opinion of 'my way is the only way'.


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## TheMule (17 November 2011)

I'd suggest the mare was in pain. If owner doesn't want to investigate, treat (probs kissing spine or similar) and take a chance that the behaviour will change then yes, I would PTS.
In fact, I had a tb mare just the same and she was PTS


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## classicalfan (17 November 2011)

Agree with ihatework, as an owner one has a repsonsiblity for the life of the horse.  Yes, she's a very difficult mare but often these horses can be great if the right person is found.  And it's not about talent or experience but who she clicks with.  If she isn't a nutcase the whole time then I suspect that there is something else going on.


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## ecrozier (17 November 2011)

Tried bite trial (re back pain) seen by physio and Chiro and vet, all gave full clean bill of health. Kissing spines etc - she is almost as bad in hand / in stable as ridden? Eyes checked - no problem. Bad training, possibly during initial breaking in? No hasn't been sent away apart from to be sold, they had apparently no trouble with her, but only had her a month. Couple of pros have advised but often not seen her at her very worst, when it is nigh on impossible to ride her through it as she is dangerous 
Britestar - agree entirely. She's not normally aggressive to people just dangerous if you happen to be in the way!


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## ThreeTB's (17 November 2011)

ecrozier said:



			Eva, exactly, I think it's more a question of the emotional attachment (such as it is) and a feeling of having let the horse down by not sorting the problem out. But a pros/cons list might be a good way to rationalise that.
		
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IMHO it would be letting the horse down by passing the problem on, and her ending up being cruelly treated or injuring someone. I had an aggressive dog PTS (after spending years and hundreds of pounds trying to help him overcome his demons, not a decision taken lightly!) and never regret it although it upset me at the time - I never have to worry about where he is, how he's being treated or who he's bitten.


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## ecrozier (17 November 2011)

Classicalfan - how would you go about finding the right person? Agreed she isn't a nutcase the whole time, yet in some senses part of the problem is that it's very hard to identify what sets her off... Sometimes it's hacking (goes upright on roads) other days that's fine, sometimes it's going in the school, other days she works fine, some days it's jumping (ie she will nap and real rather than jump) other days she will storm round a xc course!


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## Thistle (17 November 2011)

I noticed the word 'stallionesque' behaviour and immediately thought granulosa theacal cell tumour, I seem to remember that regumate doesn't improve these.

If the owner is unable or unwilling to investigate further then PTS is the best option before she causes a serious accident

http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/GCT.htm

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=90522


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## ecrozier (17 November 2011)

ThreeTBs that was what our EDT said when he heard she was back.


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## ecrozier (17 November 2011)

Thistle what is a granulosa theacal cell tumour? Owner would do almost anything to 'fix' this horse!


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## ihatework (17 November 2011)

Classicalmare, this isn't a mare I would pass on. The girl who has her is quite a relaxed and sympathetic person and has done her utmost to get through to this horse.

Even when the mare isn't being a nutter she wouldn't be the most generous. Add to that, although she has a bit of scope over a fence her technique is very poor (I always wondered if that had rootes with physical issues?) so isn't really an attractive prospect for a very experienced competitive rider.

If owner isn't prepared to keep then I think it's in the mares best welfare interest to PTS. There may be something very wrong physically or it may be pure temprement, unfortunately unless she wants to spend £££ she'll probably never really know.


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## Thistle (17 November 2011)

ecrozier said:



			Thistle what is a granulosa theacal cell tumour? Owner would do almost anything to 'fix' this horse!
		
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I've edited my post with some links to articles

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=90522

this article says that poor jump technique can be a sign


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## ecrozier (17 November 2011)

IHW - absolutely. The calibre of rider who 'might' be able to get through to her is not really going to want to bother for the equine athlete they would get at the end I think. And a less ambitious but competent sympathetic rider has tried every trick she has and everything she has been advised by numerous pros. 
Just googled the graulosa cell tumour, worth asking vet although would that not indicate seasonal problems? She's the same in winter and summer!


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## henryhorn (17 November 2011)

May I tell you about a mare we aquired?
She was one of three a chap liveried with us and didn't pay any money for three years. Being soft we fed them all but the day came when we issued a tuit through a solicitor and they became our property. The mare came with problems, she snapped her teeth at everyone, and if you tried to do anything to her like worm her she attacked full on with teeth, front legs striking out and back end whipping round at you as well. We handled her regardless and spent a long time getting over her issues, and after a year (included in the 3 year period) she was sweet to people she knew in the field. I was puzzled about her so made enquiries, and it turned out a vet near Tewkesbury had fired her and when I rang him admitted to pouring battery acid over her legs to speed the process up. He told me she had put two Newmarket vets in hospital and to beware as she was known for her behaviour.  We decided as we had a nice quiet stallion to see if we could breed from her, and the vet came to examine her. She went absolutely mental. Front legs over the door, kicked the door etc and eventually we managed to sedate her over the door. Vet looked internally and she had a deformity which meant foaling would be difficult. 
At this point I stepped in and told my husband and the vet we had no option but to euthanise her. My main reason being if she hurt herself she would hurt us as we attempted to help her. Plus with no useful purpose I couldn't see the financial benefits.
It sounds very hard but they agreed and we took her still sedated round into the field. She took more than twice the usual amount to die, we think because her poor mind fought like hell knowing pain was likely to follow after her past experience. 
It's haunted me ever since, but being realistic it wasn't us to blame but her previous owner and that vile vet. (who I have to confess I could cheerfully strip and fire his balls if I could, then pour acid over them).
This horse you talk about has been given every chance, a bit like the one above, but some horses are natural rearers to avoid trouble, and she will probably always use this as an evasion. 
In the circumstances I would give her a peaceful end (we have had several dozen euthanised here since with never a problem), there are decent horses being pts every day, it's only fair your friend gives one of them the chance to live...


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## Third_Time_Lucky (17 November 2011)

Unfortunately I've been in the position of having to make such a decision.  A few years ago I bought a beautiful 5 year old TB x CB gelding.  The first month of ownership absolutely fine.  Then he got kicked in the field resulting in eight weeks recovering time (suspected chip to cannon bone).  Once vet confirmed ok to bring back into work decided go back to basics with him, longreining, lunging etc.  All usual checks made ie. back, saddle etc. etc.  Took it steady get him used to me being sat on him again, leant over, in saddle (laid over neck) etc and then sat upright in saddle.  No problems whatsoever.  First time went to move forward properly he went straight up vertical, back down and up again and then went over backwards with me.  Smacked his head on falling and concussed himself, staggered up and fell again, this happened several times before we could get him to stand and stay upright.  Vet came out as emergency as he went into severe shock, several areas of skin missing on his legs, hips etc and he had bit a piece out of his lip.  Vet said he would either survive the night or not, he'd pumped him full of as much drugs as possible and it was a waiting game.  

Thankfully he survived and we then went down the long road of recovery, in the meantime hips/pelvis etc all checked and no sign of brain/head trauma. However once we were at the point of sitting back on him and went to sit up properly in saddle the same pattern of behaviour started, thankfully with no injuries to him this time.  I then sent him to a very well respected local lady who specialises in dealing with ex-racehorses and 'problem' horses.  She did lots and lots of groundwork with him, he was quite aggressive and very very reactive.  Sufficient progress was made that they were able to essentially re-back him and start basic work with him (albeit with him still going vertical at times) and even managed to hack him out with another horse.  Then totally out of the blue he went straight over on top of a member of her staff for no apparent reason (I was there at the time).  Went down the route of recovery time from his injuries (skin off hocks etc) and started longreining again.  She was keen to see how he reacted to being asked to work properly whilst longreining and began asking for a little flexion whilst in walk.  Thank god no-one was on his back as he reacted very violently and literally threw himself over backwards, he did this three times within the space of a couple of minutes - no self preservation whatsoever.  He had also started to be a little anxious about his head being touched.  

By now we were convinced he was showing typical signs of suffering from a brain tumour (she had dealt with several horses in the past who showed similar symptoms and had been diagnosed successfully).  I spoke with my vets who were adament that this was a behavioural problem only.  By this point in time I was so worried/upset, hated seeing him react like this - he bore no resemblance to the lovely friendly horse I had bought several months earlier.  Several people suggested selling him through the sales but I could never ever have lived with myself if he had (a) hurt himself even more or (b) hurt/killed someone.

I made the heartbreaking decision to have him PTS.  Although I know it was the right and only decision I could make it was very hard to do.  Over the nine months or so of owning him I had tried every thing we could think of to solve the problem and spent thousands of pounds, but sometimes you have to admit defeat.  

I really do feel for your fellow livery but if I were in her position (following my own experiences) I would not hesitate in making the decision to PTS.


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## ecrozier (17 November 2011)

Thistle, thank you I will pass that info on. It sounds like it is worth investigating although she doesn't exhibit aggression towards people, but other aspects definately tally up. 
Henryhorn thank you - since she sold this mare in the early summer she now also has a lovely ex racer who is exactly the sort you describe as one who deserves a chance with a very kind and dedicated owner. 
I think perhaps she is exactly as you say, a natural rearer and no amount pf anything will ever chance that.


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## ecrozier (17 November 2011)

Third time lucky - poor you. Did you ever find out what had caused the problem? Sounds worryingly similar, this mare will sometimes submit to working quite nicely, but other days fights like a wild beast.


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## Thistle (17 November 2011)

For the price of a blood test and a scan it's worth a look, however as others have said if the behaviour is now ingrained it may be that PTS is the best answer


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## ecrozier (17 November 2011)

Have just sent her the links thanks thistle.


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## siennamum (17 November 2011)

My youngster had a similar start to this mare I think. When he was backed by previous owner he went up in horror and was promptly put back in the field.

His reaction to anything he didn't like was then to rear. When he first did it with me, it was clear that he was trying to scare me, and was in complete control. I was never afraid that he would go over, he was far too balanced. He hasn't reared for months now and I have him pretty sussed and no fears about riding him or putting anyone else on him. 

I think with a new rider he would test them and see if he could rear them into submission, so I will always have to be careful that he is treated consistently. I would have to be very careful if I ever sold him to be honest with purchasers and clear about what techniques I have used to get him over his attitude.

In total my boy reared probs about 8 times. He never  learned to behave as badly as the mare you are describing but I think would have gotten as bad as the mare very, very quickly. It is quite feasible that the mare is just completely naughty, my boy was on that path but no-where near as far gone, but I wouldn't want to be the one to straighten her out. Unless the current owner is going to keep her and persist with her then IMO she should PTS and move on.


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## Booboos (17 November 2011)

I've had a mare put to sleep due to extreme behavioural issues.

She was entirely unpredictable to ride, somedays fine, sometimes so mental she would dump the professional rider (tried three different ones of those, they all thought she was fine until the day she would flip).

She was prone to panic attacks (the vet actually came out with me on a hack), she would freeze and it would be impossible to move her forwards, backwards or sideways regardless of what other horses were doing. She refused to jump, but would dump you on the jump and then jump you and the jump from a standstill.

She box walked insesantly but fence walked the moment she was turned out. She would not load on a lorry, she would pull back when tied up (again and again and again), she would rear up and strike out at you if you tried to catch her.

She had endless investigations (ovaries, regumate, saddle, teeth), professionals and behaviourists. People mentioned PTS to me, the first time I thought 'never!', by the fourth time someone suggested PTS I saw the wisdom in it.


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## classicalfan (17 November 2011)

ecrozier said:



			Classicalfan - how would you go about finding the right person? Agreed she isn't a nutcase the whole time, yet in some senses part of the problem is that it's very hard to identify what sets her off... Sometimes it's hacking (goes upright on roads) other days that's fine, sometimes it's going in the school, other days she works fine, some days it's jumping (ie she will nap and real rather than jump) other days she will storm round a xc course!
		
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I agree that it is often very difficult.  In our experience, many of the 'hyper-sensitive' horses we come across are actually some of the most talented.  We have been able to place horses like this with new owners in the past but then we do it for a living.  And there are lots of other people out there who work with difficult horses, Kelly Marks, Max, etc and they are all the sort of people who can often be able to find the right person for that horse due to their large network of contacts.  It might be worth contacting one of them, perhaps, to see if they can help or know of someone who may be interested.  We would love to help but we aren't based in the UK.


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## mybutterfly (17 November 2011)

Sad thing to have to do. But sounds like the most responsible thing to do and your friend would have the support of every truly knowledgeable horse person in the country. I have been there and don't regret it for a minute. I never have to worry about him again.


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## ecrozier (17 November 2011)

Siennamum that sounds exactly like she probably started out. When she goes up it's never panicked, it's all about getting her own way. Owner always said she never felt at risk of going over although supposedly she now has with the girl that bought then returned her  I think if this mare had been sorted from the beginning she might have a very different story however previous owner was clearly TERRIFIED of her in hand let alone under saddle, we had to load her (she stood up then too  ) as vendor wouldn't get involved! Booboos and mybutterfly thanks for your experiences. 
Classicalfan thanks. I have used Max before and he is an old friend of my farrier, and that is one avenue that is under discussion at the moment. Owner just needs a few debts paying and mare to be sound and then she may well call him for a chat. Unfortunately I wouldn't say she is an excessively talented mare - I'm sure with the right rider she might go PN or thereabouts but she's not going to attract the type of pro who might have the time to put into her I don't think so would be a case of trying anyone's connections that might know the right type of person.


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## Bubbles (17 November 2011)

I put my 6yo down due to severe behavioural difficulties. 
He was a bolter, had him with Michael Peace for 3 months - Mike has never had a horse for that long - followed up by help from one of the best event riders in the business. He had everyone stumped. Eventually a gait abnormality was spotted, bute trial showed nothing, even resorted to fluphenazine to see if that helped. In the end he had a full work up, including full exams for a brain tumour. He was found to have some sclerosis of a few spiney processes in his back, and some desmitis of hind suspensories. We could have treated those things, but the neurologist he was under described him as mentally ill. So that was that. Emotionally and financially I was shot to pieces, but I can at least sleep at night knowing my lovely little horse isn't being passed from pillar to post.


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## SusieT (17 November 2011)

as the pros had no reported problems I'd be in clined to think rider horse incompatibilit tbh, that she might get on better in a different yard


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## Holidays_are_coming (17 November 2011)

I would when I brought my mare she had been owned by someone who was terrified of her, and she had learnt to rear, but luckly they were tiny and after my initial fear, she was easy to turn round (she also had ulcers) now she is a star! However if that wasnt the case and I had tried everything else I would PTS.


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## AengusOg (17 November 2011)

I don't want to start a war here, but...

It's all about this mare's undesirable behaviour, but nothing has been mentioned regarding how she is handled prior to, during, or after her 'outbursts', or anything of her history.

I appreciate that such things as tumours and reproductive system abnormalities can cause havoc in some mares, but my experience tells me that human error causes many problems which, with some thought, experienced handling, and consistency, can be addressed favourably.

I have worked with some dangerous horses which were on their last warnings, and I believe that their behaviour was entirely down to human failings. There is always a trigger, and when that can be identified the work to repair the damage can begin. Learned behaviours, particularly where fear or restraint have been factors, can be difficult to resolve, but not impossible. 

With respect to your friend, as I'm sure she is very concerned for the welfare of the mare and is desperate to avoid any more danger to horse or human, there is nothing to be gained from trying to ride this horse at the moment. However, it may just be that rehabilitation, through groundwork, albeit lengthy and complicated, may just be beneficial for this mare and avoid her being put to sleep.

In answer to the question, though, if a horse was dangerous and no reason could be found, nor could any headway be made in improving the behaviour, I would PTS rather than risk injury to anyone else.


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## stroppymare153 (17 November 2011)

jemima_too said:



			I wouldn't hesistate. .
		
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sadly agree with this, given that owner seems to have tried everything.  Also, the mare surely can't be enjoying life.  Horrid position to be in though.  <<hugs>> for your friend that she has the strength to make the decision.





			Unfortunately IMHO even if a reason for her behaviour is found and a cure for the reason effected the learned behaviour is too severe to make her a reasonable prospect.
		
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don't necessarily agree with this though - we very nearly had a horse pts for apparent behavioural problems.  turned out to have a physical reason (not pain) and once that was fixed, and with plenty of chill time he is now completely laid back, happy and in full work.  Sad that so many aren't as lucky as we were.


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## ecrozier (17 November 2011)

She is not currently being ridden. In terms of handling she is handled exactly the same as all the other horses on the yard? Typically when she has an outburst she gallops off across yard/field, is retrieved and returned to whatever it was she was doing before, presently most likely to be standing still as she is lame. Her history as far as we know was she was bred, kept on large farm in a herd, backed as a 4 year old and started this behaviour (we don't know anything about this process) and then friend bought her as a 5 year old out of the field.
Bubbles and lui23456 thanks for your stories, lui glad you mare is ok now and bubbles yes at least you know he is at peace. 
SusieT the 'pros' that had her were friend of friend's daughter, she attempted to go up once and they booted her through it and sold her a week later. Useful to note that she was kept alone there and was in a strange place though so the napping element would be reduced. She then went to another home where she ended up being so bad they returned her..


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## ajn1610 (17 November 2011)

It sounds as if the owner has done all the correct things in terms of trying to establish a physical reason for the behaviour. As the horse has had a Vet to it several times assuming that they are competent I'm sure they've eliminated all the likely possibilities. Of course it could be something unusual but even if that is the case there is a limit to how much time, effort and (not nice but realistic) money an owner can spend searching for something that might never be found, or alternatively may be untreatable.

I'm very reassured to hear the owner is not thinking of breeding, it never ceases to amaze me how many people think it's ok to have a foal from a mentally or physically unsound mare! 

I can also appreciate the thinking that moving the mare on may have helped break the bad cycle. I feel so long as you are 100% upfront and honest, which it sounds as if was the case, then it's the buyers decision and their responsibility. 

The owner could pursue the behavioural route, but it's likely to require a fairly significant further financial input and be a long slog. IMO at this stage the behaviour is probably so ingrained you are also unlikely to completely resolve it, although I've seen behaviourists do some amazing things and I'm sure the right person could improve the mare and develop some coping strategies. It comes down to how much more the owner is prepared to do, she sounds sensible and experienced, we aren't dealing with the horse she is, if it's bad enough to be thinking pts she must be fairly convinced she's reached the end of the road. 

If that is the case it may well just be coming to terms with the decision and the guilt associated with putting a 'healthy' horse down. That's a human perspective. Horses have no sense of their own mortality, they aren't even self aware. The mare will simply think it's another Vet visit, there are much much worse things than being humanly destroyed in their own home. Sometimes it's the only choice and it's the best one.


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## Maesfen (17 November 2011)

jemima_too said:



			I wouldn't hesistate. 

Unfortunately IMHO even if a reason for her behaviour is found and a cure for the reason effected the learned behaviour is too severe to make her a reasonable prospect.
		
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Snap.  No horse on this planet is worth getting hurt for or having the propensity of harming others.  My conscience wouldn't let me pass her on anywhere however skilled they were.


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## TarrSteps (18 November 2011)

ecrozier said:



			Thanks all. Re the brain tumour suggestion, it is something that has been raised, however and I know this sounds a bit ridiculous but if you saw her, she is fully in control of all her mental faculties at all times! There is no fear in her eyes or even panic, she once had a tantrum in our yard car park which is maybe 20x20 with 6 cars and a lorry parked in it, went up again and again and again, broke free, etc.... And never so much as touched a vehicle.
		
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Just to qualify this a bit, I had a horse with a brain tumour and when he lost it he got angry, not careless.  My trainer at the time pushed me to put him down partly because he was worried that if we ever a situation where I came off the horse, he might very well go for me.  I do have a good sized scar on my arm where he bit me one day when I tripped and put my hand against him to steady myself, so there was some validity to the concern!

Interestingly, a very good friend of mine died of a brain tumour and one of the first obvious signs, far before declines in his speech, motor control etc, was a tendency to become angry quickly and irrationally, and a general inability to control his temper when he did get irritated.  It was really quite scary in someone who had always been reasonable (he was a lawyer) and would certainly have been more so if we hadn't have known the circumstances.  Apparently this is a very common effect.  

I also knew three offspring of the same mare who were clearly mad.  I knew where they'd been, who'd been looking after them etc. so it wasn't circumstance.  Interestingly, the kids all looked normal (in appearance, not behaviour) but I saw the mare later and she, most definitely, did not look sane.  If she had been a person you would have crossed the street.  It is VERY, VERY rare for a horse to be "not right in the head" for no reason (I'd say I've met four or five out of literally thousands of horses and, by definition, I meet a lot that are having problems) but it does happen.  All the others I've met had something behind their behaviour but knowing there's a problem, even knowing what it is, isn't always the same thing as being able to fix it.


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## noname (18 November 2011)

Hi,

I know this sounds wack, but it is a cheap option: have you tried one of the those horse communicators / psycolgoists or whatever they call themselves? 
I'm only suggesting it because its cheap (I've heard £10) and you would only want to PTS as a very last resort. I'd want to try everything. You just send them a picture of the horses head and then they "look into their eyes" and can tell they you what is wrong with the horse /or the horse tells them!!! A friend says one has diagnosed lameness in the horse, so they use them first as its cheaper than the vet! They think they communicate on the horse with another level or something.
Only a thought, I imagine they come up with some rubbish a lot of the time, but worth a shot if your so desperate.

Good luck.


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## ArcticFox (18 November 2011)

PTS - good option. Sad but true

She is not safe with someone else, as you say not suitable for breeding, blood bank or ET.  

Better to do it before someone gets injured.  

I think you shouldn't feel bad about it, the horse sounds dangerous as very unpredictable and you have tried to find out if there is anything wrong so to me it sounds like you have covered all options.  

Sorry


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## ecrozier (18 November 2011)

Thanks Tarrsteps, she's obviously not mine but I have spent a fair amount of time with her and I genuinely don't think she is 'not right in the head' - she is just extremely stubborn and has unfortunately learned a very effective way to get her own way and I'm not sure anyone will be able to reliably train this out of her. 
Noname if it's that cheap it might be worth considering, will suggest it. Always thought those types of thing were very expensive!


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## Amymay (18 November 2011)

Well,  I certainly wouldn't pass her on..........

She's not a candidate for a blood bank or ET.

However, heartbreaking the decision, better put down than killing someone..


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## Amymay (18 November 2011)

henryhorn said:



			May I tell you about a mare we aquired?
She was one of three a chap liveried with us and didn't pay any money for three years. Being soft we fed them all but the day came when we issued a tuit through a solicitor and they became our property. The mare came with problems, she snapped her teeth at everyone, and if you tried to do anything to her like worm her she attacked full on with teeth, front legs striking out and back end whipping round at you as well. We handled her regardless and spent a long time getting over her issues, and after a year (included in the 3 year period) she was sweet to people she knew in the field. I was puzzled about her so made enquiries, and it turned out a vet near Tewkesbury had fired her and when I rang him admitted to pouring battery acid over her legs to speed the process up. He told me she had put two Newmarket vets in hospital and to beware as she was known for her behaviour.  We decided as we had a nice quiet stallion to see if we could breed from her, and the vet came to examine her. She went absolutely mental. Front legs over the door, kicked the door etc and eventually we managed to sedate her over the door. Vet looked internally and she had a deformity which meant foaling would be difficult. 
At this point I stepped in and told my husband and the vet we had no option but to euthanise her. My main reason being if she hurt herself she would hurt us as we attempted to help her. Plus with no useful purpose I couldn't see the financial benefits.
It sounds very hard but they agreed and we took her still sedated round into the field. She took more than twice the usual amount to die, we think because her poor mind fought like hell knowing pain was likely to follow after her past experience. 
It's haunted me ever since, but being realistic it wasn't us to blame but her previous owner and that vile vet. (who I have to confess I could cheerfully strip and fire his balls if I could, then pour acid over them).
This horse you talk about has been given every chance, a bit like the one above, but some horses are natural rearers to avoid trouble, and she will probably always use this as an evasion. 
In the circumstances I would give her a peaceful end (we have had several dozen euthanised here since with never a problem), there are decent horses being pts every day, it's only fair your friend gives one of them the chance to live...
		
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That is one of the saddest stories, I think i've ever read.  Poor mare.  You are a wonderful, caring person HH ((((   ))))


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## SpottedCat (18 November 2011)

ecrozier said:



			Thanks Tarrsteps, she's obviously not mine but I have spent a fair amount of time with her and I genuinely don't think she is 'not right in the head' - she is just extremely stubborn and has unfortunately learned a very effective way to get her own way and I'm not sure anyone will be able to reliably train this out of her.
		
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Is that not exactly the point TS was making though? That the ones with the brain tumour _were_ to all outward appearances 'normal', just reacted in an unreasonable manner, not unlike this horse? Maybe I misunderstood her post, but the impression I got was that she was saying that the ones she's known with brain tumours were very different from the ones she know who were genuinely bonkers....


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## ecrozier (18 November 2011)

Yes you are right SC I have misread slightly, I think the point was that some look completely normal, some don't, some are angry when they lose it, some clumsy. I guess it would be very hard to pigeon hole a 'typical' brain tumour horse.


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## wildcard (18 November 2011)

I think this is a really sad situation firstly cos the horse dosent realise what a good home it has and second because the owner is torn between heart and head.

I always look at situations like this with the attitude animals are not born nasty (some are obviously but mostly not)  and so therefore something in there life has created this problem should it be behavoural

many many years back  my sister was in a  very similar situation x racer tb mare been very badly neglected till my sister took her on started off fine worked on groundwork etc and up till backing.. fine to get on sit up etc then as soon as would ask to go forward would violently rear on more than one occasion went over backwards and actually broke sisters collar bone doing this.. after this she would get very nasty try bit and kick you and generally dangerous to be around.

We were at wits end had all the usual done back, teech saddle you name it and we had it done. So we hit the same place your friend is it.. PTS.. Heartbreaking decision but was what we thought our only option.. didnt want to pass on a dangerous horse.. 

Spoke to a friend who spoke to us about richard maxwell.. now we were the most unconvinced people in the world sister done all stages at bishop burton and hunts and competes reguarly and had never heard of this guy or his methods.. however thought we owed it to the horse to give one last try even if we didnt really believe... but for our own guilt we felt we had to try before pts.. 

within 2 minutes of having her in the arena and asking to walk on she went up and over.. cue our eyes closed.. he jumped of and started to have a play with her shoulders.. turned out she had a trapped nerve under her front leg and when been asked to walk forward with weight on was dreadfully painful for her. he spent a couple of hours working with her to retrain her way of thinking to that it dosent hurt anymore and is okay to have people aboard.. 
This guy saved our horses life and have never looked back..

I agree not all horses purposes in life are to be ridden and looked after by people.. and sometimes PTS is the safest and kindest option, all i can say is be open to suggestions from even the strangest of things not all horses are the same and some people and methods work better for some more than others. there is almost always an underlying issue associated with behavoural issues. The hard part is finding it
Good luck with this hard decision xx


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## skint1 (18 November 2011)

She sounds quite a bit like our mare     it's very sad and I am sorry for your friend because it sounds like she tried everything the same as we did.

We got our mare as 3yo ex racer so I feel we're responsible for how she is,(which is not the case for your friend) she was skinny and sad and we didn't know what we were doing and spoiled her with treats and things like that, but to be honest she was always awkward about stuff she didn't want to do, it was a struggle just to get her to lift her feet or let her mane be brushed, right from the word go.   God knows over the years we threw so much time and money to try and put it right, and to an extent it worked, but she never got past her extreme nappiness when pushed out her comfort zone.  I've often wondered if she had pain issues that the chiro, osteo, vet farrier didn't pick up, maybe in her back or hocks...but honestly you can wonder and try all day and never really iron it out sometimes

To her credit though, once we'd established some rules with her she has developed the advantage of being very well behaved on the ground, and she's able to go barefoot so it is possible to keep her for a "pet" and wait for the right situation to come along for her (I was hoping to loan her out as a broodmare)  but if I couldn't keep her anymore and no right sort of home on the horizon I guess I would have to pts.  Again, so sorry, it's heartbreaking isn't it?


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## Orangehorse (18 November 2011)

I have heard of even homebred horses that have sadly been PTS as they were dangerous, and that was after exploring every avenue and thinking that there might be pain, but impossile to diagnose with normal veterinary methods. A worrying number of dressage horses too, that people have paid good money for.

Seems to me you have three further avenues - a horse communicator, Richard Maxwell or someone similar or a healer I know who can "scan" a horse and pick up problems (usually later confirmed by a vet).  Even so, the problem might be in her mind and there is no other option, for her sake and for the humans around.


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## TarrSteps (18 November 2011)

SC has reiterated my point for me  - the horse I had with a brain tumour looked and behaved normally most of the time.  He went to horse shows, he hacked, he tied up, he trailered etc.  Now, when he came to us all these things were pretty dicey and he used to lose his [violent] temper very often, so there was every reason to think it was handling/training at the base. (He was free as had broken his owner's arm . . )  As he got more comfortable and understood more of what we were asking, his behaviour did, indeed, improve.  The problem was when he DID get frustrated or angry he could fly into a rage like you've never seen.  Over time, the triggers became milder - one day my farrier was shoeing him, the horse was standing like a donkey, and when the farrier put down the foot and patted the horse on the neck a little too hard, the horse turned himself inside out!  The final straw was a girl who worked for us going into his box (BIG signs saying not to, which are like catnip to stupid people, I now know) and swung a water bucket at him when he got too close and he went for her, big time.  She got out but it underlined to me that I simply could not protect the horse and the people around him 24/7.  My vet, a very good old-style horseman, and my coach really put the gears to me - I think it was seeing two such experienced horsemen so scared about the situation, convinced me is was well out of the ordinary.  

We contacted the vet school and they wanted to horse to come "on the hoof" so they could test him before putting him down but I couldn't do that to him - he was a sweet horse the rest of the time - so we had him done at home and just paid for the autopsy, more to satisfy our curiosity.

In retrospect, the horse was so similar to my friend with a glioblastoma - it was like he was "taken over" when he got even a little bit angry and lost the ability to control himself.  Yes, my friend did eventually show more physical signs as the tumour spread but the thing with brain injuries and tumours is they only affect the bits they affect, if that makes sense.  There is no cut and dried progression.

I knew another violent/aggressive horse that turned out to have a degenerative kidney condition, although in his case there were, at least in retrospect, physical signs.  Didn't stop him jumping big classes though!  He actually looked best when he was being ridden, as often looked quite stressed the rest of the time.

The three mad siblings also looked completely normal when they weren't actually being mad.  It was their reactions to ordinary circumstances that marked them apart.  Perhaps they had an deformity of some sort, who knows.  As I said, the dam did look mad to me (I didn't know who she was when I first saw her) but then I knew a bit more by that point so maybe I would have seen the kids coming by then.  If you had encountered any one of them out in the world, I'm sure everyone would have put it down to training or injury but three in a row, in a place that produced scores of young horses that weren't mad . . . sorry, but I find that hard to put down to "people".

Now, all that said, I have met many, many, many horses with reactions on the spectrum of the OP horse that had valid reasons for their behaviour, mostly pain related.  Actually, all pain related if you include mental pain.  It is BY FAR the more common scenario.  But, as I said, you can't fix what you can't find.  And, sadly, it's been my experience in a lot of such cases that even if you do go someway to sorting the horse you can't erase the experience that's come before and, perhaps most importantly, you can't make the people forget.  I've had a couple of cases where people sent the horse away and even when it showed real progress, they frankly admitted they simply did not want it back.  Is this a reason to put a horse down?  Maybe not on paper but if the horse can't live a good life with people who like it and can provide for its individual needs, there are worse fates . . .

I would say try a communicator or similar.  What can it hurt?  Then at least your friend can say she explored every avenue, even the ones she was suspicious of.


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## kerilli (18 November 2011)

i'd try a horse communicator first. i know it's mental, i don't care. i've been shocked and impressed with what they've come up with for my horses. Jackie Weaver is very good, as is Ann Dee. i recommend either of them.
if money wasn't a concern i'd send her to that Australian guy who has a really good reputation with tricky ones, i can't think of his name, he's down south somewhere and a lot of eventers send horses to him. or, to Richard Maxwell. someone on here will know who i mean by the first one.
to me it sounds like a dominance/behavioural thing, rather than a pain thing. her 'stalliony' field behaviour is a big clue. it sounds as if she's learnt to use her strength against people whenever she doesn't want to play. it would take someone very very good, or something very drastic, to convince her to play nicely and not use her power. 
i knew a v v good jockey years ago who had a homebred mare who was an absolute witch. used to try to scrape him off on the arena fencing, that sort of thing. at wit's end, he sent her to an old nagsman. she came back a few months later looking appalling but as docile as you could want, and never looked back. apparently the old boy deprived her of water if she wouldn't play nicely... for days on end if necessary. i don't think i could do it (in fact, in the same position, i couldn't bring myself to) but it worked on her...
otherwise, yes, i'd PTS, before she hospitalises someone, or worse. PTS is not the worst thing that can happen to a horse... 
i've seen a horse with a brain tumour. as said above, it was fine 99% of the time.


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## stilltrying (18 November 2011)

Not read all the replies, and not sure where the horse is located, but what about sending to Jason Webb?  Got a fantastic rep in this area, and vets are happy to refer to him when they think a problem is behavioural.  I used him years ago and can highly recommend.


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## TarrSteps (18 November 2011)

Jason is the guy kerrili referred to.  There are a couple of people on here who have used him so could give the OP some more info to pass along.


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## YasandCrystal (18 November 2011)

Jason Webb


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## stilltrying (18 November 2011)

TarrSteps said:



			Jason is the guy kerrili referred to.  There are a couple of people on here who have used him so could give the OP some more info to pass along.
		
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Ahh ok missed that sorry.  Here is his website http://australianhorsetraining.co.uk/

My vets referred me to him in 2004 as they weren't sure whether my horse's issues (fear of mounting) were pain related or behavioural/remembered pain.  Jason was great, got me involved with the re-training.  Told me issues related to a previous negative experience and showed me how to handle things going forwards.  I was a bit sceptical, but accepted his words.  I still have the horse and couple of months ago I tracked down the horse's previous owner - turns out she had a horrendous fall whilst mounting, she broke her leg in 10 places and completed shattered her knee was given a 50/50 chance of walking again.


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## Aleka81 (18 November 2011)

Not read all of the replies but yes I have had one PTS for exactly reasons like this


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## kerilli (18 November 2011)

yes, that's who i meant, Jason Webb. got to be worth a try IF the owner can afford it. 
fwiw the really really tricky ones like this, if they can be turned around (and obv it is a very very big IF) can become amazing comp horses, once they decide to work with you not against you...


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## TarrSteps (18 November 2011)

Just to add to the above, even if the issue is pain related retraining can be a HUGE part of getting to a reasonable solution.  It's not just about "remembering" and "phobias", it's about training the body and the mind differently.  Helping a horse go in a sounder way, helping it understand the world and making it generally more relaxed will "solve" all sorts of problems even if there is something underlying.  

I had one to ride with behaviour similar to the OP horse with an old neck fracture which was only discovered quite late in the game, after the horse had already made a significant improvement (mostly because i kept fussing  ).  At that point, the vet actually injected the area, which allowed me to progress with the training more quickly, but with the proviso that it would likely need to be done regularly.  In fact, that was not the case.  As the horse improved over all, he learned to "deal" with his neck and I'm sure it helped along whatever healing process was already in play.  So was he "fixed" by the medical treatment or the training?  Both, of course.

Now, I will say, that horse ended up in trouble because the owners sold him on without disclosing his history and the next owners insisted in jumping him in draw reins and it went horribly wrong . . . it did teach me that sometimes "fixing" a situation is not always doing the best for the horse long term. 

I am pretty sure very talented trainers are doing a bit more than they let on, but that's for another day . . .

Jason (and less high profile people, to be fair) clearly have success where other's don't.  Why is not always relative if it gets the horse to the right place.  They have the knowledge and set up to do things the average rider cannot.  Even in kerilli's example - I've known a lot of "cowboys" (literally ones, not as a pejorative term) who have not always done things in a way people would approve of but their rational was if it saved the horse's life, then it was worth it.  I knew one horse that was bucking people off and got ponied up and down a mountain for few days with a 200lb salt sack on it.  I'm sure it was almost on its knees but it solved the problem - humane or not?  Depends on your point of view.


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## Marydoll (18 November 2011)

If you can get this horse to Richard Maxwells place, he might be able to help you, he is a really good guy and will do his best to help get this poor horse on an even keel, good luck, its a hellish place to be.
Fwiw, sounds like the ops friend has tried everything, and Max could be the last ditch attempt.
Heartbreaking as it is, if a behaviourist doesnt work, i think pts is the kindest option, as even handling as a field ornament like this could be dangerous to the extreme


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## SusieT (18 November 2011)

Why not send her back to the people who were able to boot her through it? Might well be what she needs. Or turn her away for a year and see what happens, yes she might gallop around at first and this may not be possible with her injury, but she would settle, she is a horse. (I am talking a decent field with a herd of horses not just a half acre paddock on her own. 
Or send her to someone like richard Maxwell etc whod eals with problem horses. Doesn't sound like she has actually tried 'everything' as others are saying, there are many avenues and it might take time and money to investigate them, starting with a vet check, much as it would with any horse with a veterinary or training problem.


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## JanetGeorge (18 November 2011)

ecrozier said:



			Turning away for a year or two - sadly not sure it would make any odds with her. Even my non-horsey dad picked her out of the herd (had told him about her as he knows said friend) he came up to yard, looked over fence at mares and she did her normal 'stallionesque' coming round herd, moving them away and standing between them and the 'threat' (us!!)
		
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That might be a clue!  Is she out with mares only - or a mixed sex group?  If a mixed sex group, has she been seen to be aggressive with them, or dominating??  If so, it may be that she has a GTC tumour that is causing her to behave like an ill-mannered stallion. An u/s scan of the ovaries would be an inexpensive check (although surgery to remove tumouir/ovary would be more expensive!)

I note this has been suggested and that she had been tried on Regumate.  Regumate wouldn't help - and the behaviour caused by a GTC tumour is the same all year around as it isn't connected to her cycle - basically the tumour produces fairly large quantities of testosterone makig her act like a stallion!

A scan will show an abnormally large ovary with a distinctive pattern (if vet is familiar with the appearance of this type of tumour) and the other ovary will be much smaller than normal.  Have they seen her coming into season?? (Mares with a GTC tumour tend not to!)


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## ecrozier (18 November 2011)

Thanks all. I think another chat with the vet but specificallyre the gtc tumour, an animal communicator and a call to Max will be on the list as her last 3 avenues to try. Sadly she is not well off but will do her very best. Many thanks for all the thoughts.


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## squirtlysmum (18 November 2011)

I think it would be worth investigating the overies etc as if she is acting in a very stallionesque manner it could well be she has cysts. It may well be her body is coursing with testosterone and making her behaviour OTT. Cysts etc can be treated and the over production of testosterone can be medicated. It would be worth crossing this off the list and if she's found to have healthy overies then I think PTS is also a viable option.
I only mention the overies as a potential as I have had a friend with a monster of a mare to handle/turn out with others who was scanned found to have cysts and subsequently treated and is now very different to ride and handle.


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## HazyXmas (18 November 2011)

I would definitely PTS, there are so many nice horses out there that are desperate for a good home, why would you keep one that could potentially kill someone?


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## flyingfeet (18 November 2011)

To be honest if she is not well off, she would be better to PTS and rehome a sweet racehorse (which I think above you said she has done?)

Jason is great, and I'm guess he would probably lay her down to see if it has a massive impact on her behviour - dominate horses are so shocked you can do this that they suddenly get you are the alpha and stop treating you like a subordinate (providing its not a true mental issue)


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## bluespace (18 November 2011)

I was reading some of this thread earlier and have been thinking about it since and felt I needed to add my experience with my difficult mare - just in case it made any sense with this mare. I doubt it is the case but just in case....my mare had become really difficult about 18 months ago. Hacking out was the biggest issue she just would try to rear and spin and nap for home and I had some almightly battles where I had to dig really deep to win them. In the arena not so many problems though she was still complicated and not very on your side. It got so that I stopped hacking out as it was too dangerous and I didn't want to lose these battles and I suspected there was a reason for her behaviour. She became a very angry horse and not very happy. I had tried all sorts - the usual back, teeth, regumate etc. The last thing I thought of was ulcers as she was a horse that 'did so well' - not your stereotypical scrawny ulcer horse. But I decided to try the treatment as the only symptom she did have was she was touchy to girth and to rug and I could sort of pin this change down to a period of box rest she had.

Anyway tried gastroguard for 2 months, coligone since and I have a transformed horse - eventing this year placed most times at BE100 and I am now actually enjoying hacking out with her.

I think discomfort/pain can manifest itself in funny ways with horses with different triggers and situations causing the bad behaviour making it very tricky to pin down the cause.

This may be not relevant at all to this mare - and I also think that you can't keep trying for ever with these types of horses. The financial as well as the emotional drain is huge with these type of horses and you have to draw a line somewhere and take that decision.


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## swellhillcottage (18 November 2011)

jelphick said:



			I would definitely PTS, there are so many nice horses out there that are desperate for a good home, why would you keep one that could potentially kill someone?
		
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Good Post !


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## JanetGeorge (19 November 2011)

squirtlysmum said:



			I think it would be worth investigating the overies etc as if she is acting in a very stallionesque manner it could well be she has cysts. It may well be her body is coursing with testosterone and making her behaviour OTT. Cysts etc can be treated and the over production of testosterone can be medicated.
		
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I think you are confusing cysts - which do not cause behavioural problems and do not produce testosterone with a GTC tumour - which does!  Cysts are normally in the uterus (very rarely on the ovaries) and only cause problems as a rule with brood mares.


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## Zebedee (19 November 2011)

jelphick said:



			I would definitely PTS, there are so many nice horses out there that are desperate for a good home, why would you keep one that could potentially kill someone?
		
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Ditto. Well said.


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## Doublethyme (19 November 2011)

If all avenues are checked out and fail, then yes I would pts. Much better than passing on.

Good suggestions though in this thread. I'm not normally a believer in horse comunicators, but recently shared a yard with one who specializes in healing and was very impressed. May be worth a try as she does distant work too. I had her work on my back and so I know it works.

www.equinebodytalk.co.uk


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## Doublethyme (19 November 2011)

Meant to add this lady works in removing negative energy connected to traumas so if the has history that may be causing this, could be worth a shot.  Don't ask me how, half of me thinks its all nuts, bit the other half has seen a friend's overly anxious stressy gelding with long term loading issues, calmly walk on a trailer first time and stand quiet after one session with this communicator. Not a fluke either....and I've previously spent many hours waiting for him to decide to load....


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## henryhorn (19 November 2011)

I've heard of the depriving of water trick before, we sold a horse  in fantastic condition to a well know event dealing yard warning them it was a tricky ride. 
It was many months before the new owner contacted us and  said the horse was a bag of bones when she bought it from them. 
Talking later to a former rider of theirs he told us that was how they'd managed to make it behave quietly enough to sell. 
I was very tempted to kidnap the dealer and shut him in a stable for a few days without water.. Barbaric and frankly I'd rather euthanise a horse than allow it to endure that.


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## redmerl (19 November 2011)

Good one costs as much a bad one to keep.


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## Goldenstar (20 November 2011)

I have not read all the post but I would try regumate to see if it helped have a gastric scope to look for ulcers and if no help I would PTS I did PTS a healthy 3 year old it was home bred had no reason to unmanageable but was a dangerous horse it was awful I took ages to recover from doing it but it was the right thing to do.


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## Venevidivici (21 November 2011)

I knew a mare that displayed many of the problems/issues you've stated. The owner devoted hours every day to 'making good' her issues,bonding,retraining etc(she bought her as a lightly ridden 5/6 yr old) but the horse was dangerous. Owner struggled on with her,despite much advice from NH people,vets,instructors the horse didn't improve over 18mths(except to learn to stand when tied up). Best word I could describe horse with is 'unhinged'. She was different to any horse I've known-seemed mentally scarred-hard to describe,she seemed 'unhappy'& detached. Will never know if she had tumour or similar as,tragically,she bolted  on a hack&her owner was killed. Horse was,in many people's opinion,an accident waiting to happen


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