# Here we go again.. lame youngster :(



## Michen (10 August 2017)

As I sit googling with a big glass of wine I figured H&H might have some thoughts... or give me more things to google and worry about!

Bit of history, youngster came over from Ireland in March. Underweight, no muscle, poor condition. Discovered an old abscess hole which developed into seedy toe, horse was resting leg more often than normal and on hard circle lame, which blocked to hoof. X rays taken and gas pockets found, hoof resected and shoes on and horse came sound.

Lots of long reining and fast forward to now where he is (whilst still a lot of strengthening to do) a "well" looking horse with even muscle tone. He's a forward, busy and sharp sort of horse and can really explode in exciting situations. However over the last couple of weeks I've noticed he doesn't quite storm down hills as much, feels a little more reserved. Saddle being thrown to the right. I only really schooled when out at lessons/clinics and he felt fine under saddle then (hacked rest of the time). However decided to get osteo for once over, booked saddler in etc. Osteo felt he had a little "muscle memory" from the problem hoof (its likely he had that for a while in Ireland!) and did some adjustments.

Lesson today and horse bucking into canter and tail swishing. This horse is a cheeky sharp chap but he does not just buck like that unless excited and nor is he a tail swishy type. Looked at him on a hard circle and soft and trying not to get hysterical!

Videos here...


I have booked him in for a lameness work up on Monday but I'm wondering whether to just take his shoes off and turn him away for 3-6 months. I almost just don't want to open the can of worms as to what may be found, in a just 5 year old horse, having lost my wonderful boy in February this sort of feels like the last straw!

Any thoughts from those videos? Obviously the ground is a bit uneven and rocky but they still make for some hard viewing. My immediate thoughts are stifles...


[video=youtube;47PfvrWi9rI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47PfvrWi9rI[/video]
[video=youtube;mobiyx5IE-g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mobiyx5IE-g[/video]
[video=youtube;vcte1UXlY3o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcte1UXlY3o[/video]


----------



## TheMule (10 August 2017)

Is he insured? I think you probably need to try to pinpoint what's going on and potentially treat and turn away- bilateral usually makes me think back/ sacroiliac and the ridden behaviour would tie in with that too. 
Good luck, I hope you get some answers


----------



## Michen (10 August 2017)

TheMule said:



			Is he insured? I think you probably need to try to pinpoint what's going on and potentially treat and turn away- bilateral usually makes me think back/ sacroiliac and the ridden behaviour would tie in with that too. 
Good luck, I hope you get some answers
		
Click to expand...

He is yes. My only other thought is perhaps its something reoccurring with the hoof, maybe gas returned etc. That would hopefully be a bit less sinister!


----------



## ycbm (10 August 2017)

He is not happy, is he?  Both hinds, I think, and his back is rigid too. My first guess is sacroiliac, pretty sore, sorry  

What to do might depend on whether you still think you will want to sell him.

SI treatment is not something a buyer is going to want to see in a vet record


----------



## Red-1 (10 August 2017)

If a horse is 'off' where the rider can feel the odd off stride, but the horse generally trots up sound and circles sound then I would turn away. If the horse is just lacking performance then too I would turn away.

Sadly this horse looks lame, even to an untrained eye, so in this case I'm afraid I would get the vet to try to pinpoint the issue. Being lame means to me in pain.

It may be something simple, that the vet could easily put right. It may be something that would get worse if untreated. But, IMO it is too lame to just turn away without investigation.


----------



## Michen (10 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			He is not happy, is he?  Both hinds, I think, and his back is rigid too. My first guess is sacroiliac, pretty sore, sorry  

What to do might depend on whether you still think you will want to sell him.

SI treatment is not something a buyer is going to want to see in a vet record 

Click to expand...

Well I obviously can't sell him as he is so he won't not be treated for something because of what may be on his records, heaven knows how a horse can have issues that's barely been asked anything of and at his age.  



Red-1 said:



			If a horse is 'off' where the rider can feel the odd off stride, but the horse generally trots up sound and circles sound then I would turn away. If the horse is just lacking performance then too I would turn away.

Sadly this horse looks lame, even to an untrained eye, so in this case I'm afraid I would get the vet to try to pinpoint the issue. Being lame means to me in pain.

It may be something simple, that the vet could easily put right. It may be something that would get worse if untreated. But, IMO it is too lame to just turn away without investigation.
		
Click to expand...

I can only hope eh!


----------



## SusieT (10 August 2017)

I have to say - if he was a bit off in mid summer when ground can be hard I'd give 1-2 weeks off before rushing into vet work up - a) it may be simple and settle and if it doesn tyou've ruled the first thing out!


----------



## Michen (10 August 2017)

SusieT said:



			I have to say - if he was a bit off in mid summer when ground can be hard I'd give 1-2 weeks off before rushing into vet work up - a) it may be simple and settle and if it doesn tyou've ruled the first thing out!
		
Click to expand...

Thing is that the grounds not even that hard at the moment. And it's not an obvious, single point lameness which makes me even more concerned. The best cause would be he's been mucking around in the field and twisted something!


----------



## ycbm (10 August 2017)

Michen said:



			Well I obviously can't sell him as he is so he won't not be treated for something because of what may be on his records, heaven knows how a horse can have issues that's barely been asked anything of and at his age.
		
Click to expand...

A common cause of SI injury is to sit down. My five year old did it slipping on a road, but he could easily have done it messing around in the field.

I'm glad you are not considering the vet record implications. IMO, he needs a vet, though as Susie says, I might wait a few days.


----------



## Michen (10 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			A common cause of SI injury is to sit down. My five year old did it slipping on a road, but he could easily have done it messing around in the field.

I'm glad you are not considering the vet record implications. IMO, he needs a vet, though as Susie says, I might wait a few days.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting. He's definitely a jolly chap in the field and likes a good buck and a gallop around. 

He's booked in for Monday morning unless I change my mind so unless he miraculously looks better by Sunday he will probably go, for my own sanity I suppose I need to know what it is as if it's something degenerative and ridden career ending there's no point in turning away and he will need to be PTS. 

Poor pony, such a happy little chap, I really hope this isn't something sinister for him


----------



## claret09 (10 August 2017)

definitely not quite right - I wouldn't worry too much I am sure he will come right


----------



## SusieT (10 August 2017)

Hes'a five yr old- they do stupid things and pull muscles etc, have you run your hands over him, felt his legs etc to rule out obvious injuries? 
I think you are panicing a bit and should take a big breath and step back - most minor lameness are not life ending!


----------



## Michen (10 August 2017)

SusieT said:



			Hes'a five yr old- they do stupid things and pull muscles etc, have you run your hands over him, felt his legs etc to rule out obvious injuries? 
I think you are panicing a bit and should take a big breath and step back - most minor lameness are not life ending!
		
Click to expand...

Yep I sure have. Nothing obvious. I guess I just think he looks catastrophically b****** all over hence the concern! I've posted before about the difficult I've had in getting him to use his back end, and as he was so very weak and undermuscled when he arrived that seemed entirely excusable, but now I suppose I am just putting it all together.


----------



## paddy555 (10 August 2017)

5yo with back end problems. Have you considered PSSM. I was in a similar situation and that was the answer to mine. Now he is a lovely riding horse just managed.


----------



## Michen (10 August 2017)

paddy555 said:



			5yo with back end problems. Have you considered PSSM. I was in a similar situation and that was the answer to mine. Now he is a lovely riding horse just managed.
		
Click to expand...

I hVe but he's never tied up and nor do his bum muscles feel tight?


----------



## paddy555 (11 August 2017)

Michen said:



			I hVe but he's never tied up and nor do his bum muscles feel tight?
		
Click to expand...


and hopefully he never will tie up. Not all PSSM horses tie up in fact many (hopefully) don't. Have you done tests to establish CK and AST? Have you tried the PSSM diet to try and rule it out? Horses are often finally diagnosed with PSSM or possible PSSM when everything else has failed. Mine started his PSSM journey in vet hospital with colic. Even then they never picked it up. Just a thought.


----------



## Michen (11 August 2017)

paddy555 said:



			and hopefully he never will tie up. Not all PSSM horses tie up in fact many (hopefully) don't. Have you done tests to establish CK and AST? Have you tried the PSSM diet to try and rule it out? Horses are often finally diagnosed with PSSM or possible PSSM when everything else has failed. Mine started his PSSM journey in vet hospital with colic. Even then they never picked it up. Just a thought.
		
Click to expand...

Not at all, horse hasn't even been seen by a vet yet. From what I understand you can do a hair test to determine? I know very little about PSSM- off to Google!!!!


----------



## tallyho! (11 August 2017)

Yes definitely lame but unsure if hind/feet/back - he doesn't like to track up on the school surface and on the gravel he looks positively sore and trying to avoid any bending of his back (he looks up and out of the circle, very hollow and doesn't like to stretch his neck down) and he looks really footsore on the fronts... then again you are using VERY small circles which could also be why he's having balance issues.

It's worth asking vet to look. If it is soft tissue (SI/Whither/neck) then you don't want the tenseness to pull the spine out of line, if it's the feet then that's easily sorted, if PSSM then at least you can manage or even if it's gut discomfort you can manage but at least you *know*.

I hope you get it sorted michen... hugs.


----------



## Michen (11 August 2017)

tallyho! said:



			Yes definitely lame but unsure if hind/feet/back - he doesn't like to track up on the school surface and on the gravel he looks positively sore and trying to avoid any bending of his back (he looks up and out of the circle, very hollow and doesn't like to stretch his neck down) and he looks really footsore on the fronts... then again you are using VERY small circles which could also be why he's having balance issues.

It's worth asking vet to look. If it is soft tissue (SI/Whither/neck) then you don't want the tenseness to pull the spine out of line, if it's the feet then that's easily sorted, if PSSM then at least you can manage or even if it's gut discomfort you can manage but at least you *know*.

I hope you get it sorted michen... hugs.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you.. it is so gutting


----------



## Pinkvboots (11 August 2017)

I know this has been said previously about him doing something silly in the field but this was my first thought I would give him a bit of time off before rushing to the vet, not entirely the same but my horse was not right last week tried schooling and he just felt like a wooden board, I already had my cranio acupuncture lady booked for the end of the week so I just waited it out, she said his neck was very sore and just locked up, 2 days later I had another go at the schooling and he was back to normal, a few days prior to him being sore my other horse came in minus a tail flap I just couldn't believe he had managed to rip the thing clean off, then I remembered sore horse has a tendency to lunge at the other one and bite, I think he grabbed the tail flap and as the other horse ran to get away it must have given him quite a pull on his neck, well that's the only explanation I could come up with.

I think sometimes we under estimate the kind of antics they get up to when out, and at the end of the day although they are big powerful animals they are actually quite fragile and get injured and sore fairly easily.

I really hope it isn't anything serious I know you have really been through it so fingers crossed from me.


----------



## budatiger (11 August 2017)

Agree those circles are very small. Given he's young & unbalanced too. He does look very guarded all around. Have you checked if footsore? Fingers crossed for Monday.


----------



## Michen (11 August 2017)

Pinkvboots said:



			I know this has been said previously about him doing something silly in the field but this was my first thought I would give him a bit of time off before rushing to the vet, not entirely the same but my horse was not right last week tried schooling and he just felt like a wooden board, I already had my cranio acupuncture lady booked for the end of the week so I just waited it out, she said his neck was very sore and just locked up, 2 days later I had another go at the schooling and he was back to normal, a few days prior to him being sore my other horse came in minus a tail flap I just couldn't believe he had managed to rip the thing clean off, then I remembered sore horse has a tendency to lunge at the other one and bite, I think he grabbed the tail flap and as the other horse ran to get away it must have given him quite a pull on his neck, well that's the only explanation I could come up with.

I think sometimes we under estimate the kind of antics they get up to when out, and at the end of the day although they are big powerful animals they are actually quite fragile and get injured and sore fairly easily.

I really hope it isn't anything serious I know you have really been through it so fingers crossed from me.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you. I think because he's always been reserved behind, but I just put it down to weakness (especially given the condition he arrived in), I think its something that's been going on a while rather than just a slip or injury in the field.




budatiger said:



			Agree those circles are very small. Given he's young & unbalanced too. He does look very guarded all around. Have you checked if footsore? Fingers crossed for Monday.
		
Click to expand...

No I haven't, I guess I thought it looked likely to be higher up... Suppose the vet will check all that!


----------



## twiggy2 (11 August 2017)

I agree he looks lame and he looks lame all round just worse on some than others.
Viewing those videos alone though can be a bit misleading, he is a youngster who looks to be struggling with balance on the tight uneven circles and it can make things look far worse than they are.
It would need more useful to see him moving in walk and trot on level hard ground away and towards the camera, but with that degree of lamness I would not be doing any trotting up unless for a vet.
Good luck


----------



## paddy555 (11 August 2017)

Michen said:



			Not at all, horse hasn't even been seen by a vet yet. From what I understand you can do a hair test to determine? I know very little about PSSM- off to Google!!!!
		
Click to expand...

you can do a hair test to determine type 1 around £30 I think.  Type 2 and the rest are not so easily determined. Many try and diagnose by management which can be pretty conclusive as at the end o f the day, whatever it is, then it needs to be successfully managed. There are lots of threads on here about PSSM and most of them are pretty good. Many vets seem to have little or poor info on PSSM. 

If he was mine,had come with poor muscles, and  now had your problem after being put under the stress of working and riding I would start with high dose 10,000iu per day of natural vit E oil and I would exercise him daily in straight lines. Probably working up to an hour round the block on long reins or very light riding. Anything to keep him working but not hard or tight to cause problems. I would also blood test. 
Mine reached point we had to determine something when the CK and AST levels did not do down as they should. He was also unhappy as yours is moving and that came out riding ie pain = bad temper and bad behaviour. A week into vit e and he was a different horse and we started to find our way forward at last.


----------



## AandK (11 August 2017)

I just wanted to add my experience after seeing you say he looks "catastrophically b****** all over" many years ago (early 2005, he was 8 then) my horse went lame behind and we thought it was SI.  He had a bone scan which ruled the SI out so they then went on to nerve blocking, starting with his hind feet.  Blocked out the right hind foot and presto, sound horse who looked and moved very differently (i.e. better!).  X-rayed the feet and his pedal bones were reverse rotated (so pointing up rather than down like laminitics get), it was worse in the right foot.  He had wedge pads to correct this for a while, to start with these were thick ones that covered the whole sole and so he pulled them off a few times and each time he did he looked like a cripple all over, short and pottery in front, sore all over.  Eventually he had smaller pads and then after a period with no hind shoes on box rest (suspensory injury) in 2008 he hasn't needed them since.
This is not to say that this is what is wrong with your boy (although worth looking in to!) but more to say some horses look crap all over when wrong in one place.   Hopefully it is something minor.


----------



## paddy555 (11 August 2017)

https://cvm.msu.edu/research/facult...ratory/type-1-polysaccharide-storage-myopathy

if you start here on the LH side you will see them all listed, RER, PSSM1, PSSM2 etc. 
If you move down and look at  neuromuscular diseased related to vit E you will see why it is so important. 
hope this helps.


----------



## SEL (11 August 2017)

paddy555 said:



			and hopefully he never will tie up. Not all PSSM horses tie up in fact many (hopefully) don't. Have you done tests to establish CK and AST? Have you tried the PSSM diet to try and rule it out? Horses are often finally diagnosed with PSSM or possible PSSM when everything else has failed. Mine started his PSSM journey in vet hospital with colic. Even then they never picked it up. Just a thought.
		
Click to expand...

Or diagnosed when their owner reads an article and has a lightbulb moment! Even if your horse doesn't have it Michen, there is nothing harmful about a low sugar / starch diet and supplementing with high vitamin E.

I can't watch the videos on my work computer, but do you still have shoes on him or are they off again now?


----------



## ester (11 August 2017)

Hopefully michen doesn't mind me saying shoes are still on (I asked on fb yesterday  )


----------



## Michen (11 August 2017)

Yes shoes still on all... shod in all four feet and done about theee weeks ago.


----------



## Marmaduke (11 August 2017)

Don't know if it helps but sound similar to mine. In my case it is stifles. He has just turned 5. Very happy, forward and explosive at times. Primarily difficulty cantering with bucking and swishing tail on going into canter and saddle slipping as high (lame) more on one side behind also latterly didn't like to step downwards out of stable, had to think about it. Wasn't diagnosed for over 6 months (despite knowing he was not right) by which point I had obvious swelling as a bit of bone had chipped off and he was touchy on this area but nothing visible before this just behavioural. Has just had double keyhole surgery on his stifles for OCD on 1st June. Quick recovery (not months of being in a stable). Currently rehabbing and in ridden work, still 2/10 lame but no longer bucking. If it is this, surgery is only option rest doesn't help at this age. Think you are doing the right thing taking him to vet on Monday, in meantime just see if any swelling or soreness at all. View him in walk and trot from behind you might see hip going high on one side if worse on one side, the one opposite to slipping saddle. Mine also had overdeveloped muscle on outside of gaskin (thigh) on the side that was dipping and saddle slipping down onto as it was being placing further under him. This is improving as he is learning to use himself properly. If it is this don't despair! There are lots of people on this forum who understand what you are going through! Good luck and keep us posted!


----------



## Michen (11 August 2017)

Oh gosh  what's the prognosis for him? 



Marmaduke said:



			Don't know if it helps but sound similar to mine. In my case it is stifles. He has just turned 5. Very happy, forward and explosive at times. Primarily difficulty cantering with bucking and swishing tail on going into canter and saddle slipping as high (lame) more on one side behind also latterly didn't like to step downwards out of stable, had to think about it. Wasn't diagnosed for over 6 months (despite knowing he was not right) by which point I had obvious swelling as a bit of bone had chipped off and he was touchy on this area but nothing visible before this just behavioural. Has just had double keyhole surgery on his stifles for OCD on 1st June. Quick recovery (not months of being in a stable). Currently rehabbing and in ridden work, still 2/10 lame but no longer bucking. If it is this, surgery is only option rest doesn't help at this age. Think you are doing the right thing taking him to vet on Monday, in meantime just see if any swelling or soreness at all. View him in walk and trot from behind you might see hip going high on one side if worse on one side, the one opposite to slipping saddle. Mine also had overdeveloped muscle on outside of gaskin (thigh) on the side that was dipping and saddle slipping down onto as it was being placing further under him. This is improving as he is learning to use himself properly. If it is this don't despair! There are lots of people on this forum who understand what you are going through! Good luck and keep us posted!
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Marmaduke (11 August 2017)

Prognosis is based on what they find when they operate as even scanning x Ray's etc won't show enough. Mine has slight fibrillation of the cartiledge on the less swollen side, the side he was lamer on or higher from behind. Once damaged it won't repair all you can do is support the joint with supplements and hope it doesn't get worse. The ligaments etc have all been tidied up and will completely heal. The prognosis is good, it may just take a little time to completely come right. If they are young they should heal better.


----------



## Michen (11 August 2017)

Thank you. I have ordered some vitamin e and Alcar so will give it a go and see, nothing to lose I guess!


paddy555 said:



https://cvm.msu.edu/research/facult...ratory/type-1-polysaccharide-storage-myopathy

if you start here on the LH side you will see them all listed, RER, PSSM1, PSSM2 etc. 
If you move down and look at  neuromuscular diseased related to vit E you will see why it is so important. 
hope this helps.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Nudibranch (11 August 2017)

I had convinced myself my big lad had pssm  (not unreasonable given his draught breeding) but the vet held out for orthopaedic. He is less uncomfortable than yours but was not right behind. Vet was right. So far we have found hock djd and a possible issue with neck vertebrae. SI is still a possibility on top. What I'm trying to say is it could be many things and statistically an orthopaedic issue is more likely. I would agree he does look sore in front as well though. Have you tried booting or reshoeing to see if there is any difference? Have you tried a couple of days of bute?


----------



## Michen (11 August 2017)

Nope I haven't tried Bute. I guess I'm going straight to vet as I feel this is likely to be a long term issue and the reason he's always. Been reserved behind, so don't think it's something Bute can fix?

Not even considered the fronts at this point I've been so fixated on the hinds. He has super feet though and no pulses etc. Mmm!

How old is your boy? What's the prognosis re hocks?




Nudibranch said:



			I had convinced myself my big lad had pssm  (not unreasonable given his draught breeding) but the vet held out for orthopaedic. He is less uncomfortable than yours but was not right behind. Vet was right. So far we have found hock djd and a possible issue with neck vertebrae. SI is still a possibility on top. What I'm trying to say is it could be many things and statistically an orthopaedic issue is more likely. I would agree he does look sore in front as well though. Have you tried booting or reshoeing to see if there is any difference? Have you tried a couple of days of bute?
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Nudibranch (13 August 2017)

A short bute trial might help narrow down the possibilities...though it may not! Didn't for us though it was part of the overall workup. Mine is 6 and at this stage we have no idea what will happen. Medicating the hocks alongside remedial shoeing in front is the next step...no laminitis, excellent hoof quality but balance is way out on one hoof and he just threw a mystery spell of lameness in front which he's over but which we never found a cause for.

I hope you find more answers than we have...and with a decent outcome.


----------



## Trules (16 August 2017)

hi, dont despair. I'd think of turning away and giving him a good 6 months to process all he has learnt so far.
my young connie didn't look right behind last summer. vet said mildly bi laterally lame behind, no real diagnosis, maybe a little tight in the suspensory area after scans but nothing definite. vet's advice was to turn him away for the winter and he has come back this year a fabulous pony. I like to think it was almost 'growing pains'. and that he needed some general chill and grow up time. best wishes. x


----------



## Michen (23 August 2017)

Just an update for anyone interested. Liphook work up and MRI of hinds and fronts showed no tendon/ligament/navicular problems, hind hoof has an underun hoof wall and essentially the seedy toe which was resected months ago and nearly grown out is still a bit unstable and needs cleaning up. Front feet showed inflamaed laminae and slightly bruised pedal bone, symptoms in line with laminitis,  which they feel is concussive from the overloading of the fronts from a hind issue that's been rumbling along for six months.

So very positive really and could certainly be a lot worse!!


----------



## FfionWinnie (23 August 2017)

Thank god for that!  Glad to hear it.


----------



## tallyho! (23 August 2017)

Phew at least it can be sorted easily. The feet can be sorted in time with proper balancing but boo to the farrier whom let his toes get so long in the first place!


----------



## Sheep (24 August 2017)

Glad to read your update Michen, didn't comment on original post but have been following your progress. Fingers crossed for an easy and straightforward resolution, you deserve it after all the stress these flippin horses have put you through!


----------



## Michen (24 August 2017)

Thanks guys, it would obviously have been a whole lot less stressful if it hadn't happened at all but given the level of lameness it was probably the best outcome I could have hoped for. Now how to keep a very jolly little youngster amused whilst he's having a rest!




FfionWinnie said:



			Thank god for that!  Glad to hear it.
		
Click to expand...




tallyho! said:



			Phew at least it can be sorted easily. The feet can be sorted in time with proper balancing but boo to the farrier whom let his toes get so long in the first place!
		
Click to expand...




Sheep said:



			Glad to read your update Michen, didn't comment on original post but have been following your progress. Fingers crossed for an easy and straightforward resolution, you deserve it after all the stress these flippin horses have put you through!
		
Click to expand...


----------



## tallyho! (25 August 2017)

Is he on box rest michen?


----------



## Michen (25 August 2017)

tallyho! said:



			Is he on box rest michen?
		
Click to expand...

No, he's on normal routine. Half stabled half turnout, reassess in six weeks.


----------



## Pinkvboots (25 August 2017)

Michen said:



			Just an update for anyone interested. Liphook work up and MRI of hinds and fronts showed no tendon/ligament/navicular problems, hind hoof has an underun hoof wall and essentially the seedy toe which was resected months ago and nearly grown out is still a bit unstable and needs cleaning up. Front feet showed inflamaed laminae and slightly bruised pedal bone, symptoms in line with laminitis,  which they feel is concussive from the overloading of the fronts from a hind issue that's been rumbling along for six months.

So very positive really and could certainly be a lot worse!!
		
Click to expand...

it certainly could have been a lot worse glad it's nothing too horrible hopefully with a bit of rest and good shoeing he will be fixed


----------



## annunziata (29 August 2017)

ahh that id good news yay


----------

