# Navicular and diet



## cellie (24 September 2015)

I'm four months into barefoot as my horse has navicular . There's some improvement with lameness and frogs look good although one heel is still contracted and bit upright / boxy . I've started him on pro hoof his regular diet is linseed fast fibre and dengie hi fi . Should I be adding salt to his feed I'm sure I've read this can aid navicular and benefit  supplement intake . I've only just started little bit of walk ridden previously long reined as he was too uncomfortable . I'm aware of rockley site and walk him over gravel and different surfaces .. Is there anything else I'm missing ?


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## cellie (24 September 2015)

cellie said:



			I'm four months into barefoot as my horse has navicular . There's some improvement with lameness and frogs look good although one heel is still contracted and bit upright / boxy . I've started him on pro hoof his regular diet is linseed fast fibre and dengie hi fi . Should I be adding salt to his feed I'm sure I've read this can aid navicular and benefit  supplement intake . I've only just started little bit of walk ridden previously long reined as he was too uncomfortable . I'm aware of rockley site and walk him over gravel and different surfaces .. Is there anything else I'm missing ?
		
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Forgot to say he has Brewers yeast as well and I've just bought boots to try for riding as I realise he needs to improve blood supply .


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## ycbm (25 September 2015)

How much are you walking him?  At this stage I would be doing an hour two days out of three and I would have expected a sound  horse by now. Is he landing heel first?


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## Orangehorse (25 September 2015)

Put him in boots with pads in so he can land comfortably and therefore feel more like doing longer distances.  I think you will notice a difference with the Pro Hoof too.


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## cellie (25 September 2015)

Definitely heel first now . Should also add he had irap and Osphos . If heel is still contracted and you can see growth line surely there are some changes that still need to be made. Growth line is half way down hoof capsule . I've been doing 10 to 15 mins 5 times a day . Can't long rein on roads too busy and he had horrid experience with 4 horse and cart so I'm bit stumped


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## cellie (25 September 2015)

That should have read a week oops


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## cellie (25 September 2015)

Boots arrived yesterday I plan on riding in them tonight and leaving bf for turnout


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## DGIN (25 September 2015)

Hi, I have a 22 year old TB who went to Rockley when he was 17 (he was diagnosed with Navicular about 10 months before). I feed him pro hoof, alfalfa pellets and speedibeet. Hes also on the supplement No Bute now as his arthritis gets to him a bit. They say to feed a no sugar diet. Road work is great for building up good strong hoofs, the more road work you do the more the hoof grows to compensate. Any more info you want to know just ask as ive been through it all with my boy........


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## Exploding Chestnuts (25 September 2015)

cellie said:



			Forgot to say he has Brewers yeast as well and I've just bought boots to try for riding as I realise he needs to improve blood supply .
		
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You don't walk over gravel if he is footsore, Rockley have a lot of different surfaces, but I don't think they use gravel [sharp bits of stone] to help the horse. Once the feet are toughened up, they may cope with gravel.
Pea gravel is a different matter, it is soft, round and slightly crunchy, even humans can walk on it barefoot.


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## ycbm (25 September 2015)

cellie said:



			That should have read a week oops
		
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He isn't doing enough work.


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## cellie (25 September 2015)

Thank you mines tb as well but only 7 . I have pellets but they make him bit wired . Road work used to be great until we had problem with traffic but I can work on that .


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## cellie (25 September 2015)

Probably didn't describe it well it's packed down from cars so rough gritty surface but not exactly pea shingle . It's not my yard so I can't dictate what's put down although I'd love to try pea shingle to speed things up .


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## cellie (25 September 2015)

Wouldn't working lame horse make it worse . He's sound in walk in his paddock now . I was also dealing with surgery on his back from Ks op . I tried working early on but he regressed so backed off . One of his hooves is still compromised and very contracted  although improving .


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## ycbm (25 September 2015)

cellie said:



			Wouldn't working lame horse make it worse . He's sound in walk in his paddock now . I was also dealing with surgery on his back from Ks op . I tried working early on but he regressed so backed off . One of his hooves is still compromised and very contracted  although improving .
		
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Walk appears to put them right, not cause more issues. I have walked all mine, in hand to start if they were lame. The Rockley track system works because it makes them walk and they lead out from another horse of the horse is not sound to ride.

I have had two which were long term unsound and had also been rested for lengthy periods and they did not come sound until they were walking for an hour two days out of three.

These had no problems other than the navicular syndrome.


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## cellie (26 September 2015)

ycbm said:



			Walk appears to put them right, not cause more issues. I have walked all mine, in hand to start if they were lame. The Rockley track system works because it makes them walk and they lead out from another horse of the horse is not sound to ride.

I have had two which were long term unsound and had also been rested for lengthy periods and they did not come sound until they were walking for an hour two days out of three.

These had no problems other than the navicular syndrome.
		
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.      Today I worked him for 30 mins he is sound in walk and looks pretty good in straight line in trot without rider . We have gone from head bobbing lameness to feeling off in trot  he asked today round our track which is grass  and is much better is it good idea to keep plugging away in walk or let them have small trot if he asks . I will try road work later but he's highly strung tb so safety first . 
Personally I don't agree with box rest restricted turnout much better and I know movement is key but unsure if I should allow trot . He's in boots just for riding and do much happier .


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## ycbm (26 September 2015)

I do what they are happy to do. I wouldn't want to trot far if the horse is not sound, but of it's safer to let him move faster for a short distance, then I would. It sounds as though things are moving fast in the right direction for you


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## ester (26 September 2015)

I agree with ycmb, more walking on whatever surface he is comfortable on/boots if necessary. Personally I wouldn't trot until happily doing 45 mins/ hours worth of walking most of days (unless to get out of way of a car ), I then started trotting on a long stretch of flat grass we had access to. I did everything hacking before we did any circles. 

I don't think ycmb meant box rest when she said rest particularly either.


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## cellie (26 September 2015)

I'd love to get out hacking again he was great as 4 yr old but our roads are horrendous at moment . Hoping new road will divert some of heavy traffic away from country lanes . The lorries and tractors pass to close and he loses the plot a bit . We have track round paddocks I can use nice straight lines &#55357;&#56832;


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## missyclare (28 September 2015)

So, was the navicular definitely diagnosed by xray or are you dealing with some kind of pain in the back of the foot? Is the navicular foot the boxy foot? I wonder how long the heels are at this point If the boxy foot has not quite "come around" yet, then it probably was the one with the worst pathology to get over and is being favored more so than the rest. This makes the growth pile on like that. Makes sense to me...keep patience on your sleeve. Heck, it takes a full year to grow a new hoof and here you are only a few months down the road and things are looking much improved.  It all sounds like a good run so far and yes, boots with those magical pads and more roadwork. The things that come to mind that would lock in contracted heels are thrush, still a long toe pulling, uncleared quarters, excessive bars holding in false sole at the back of the hoof and a heel that is still too long and a frog not ready. The boots with pads with the road work will develop the back of the hoof and the concavity, that allows the farrier to "arrive" with his trim. I also believe that more roadwork is going to put you on top of this. This journey is called transition, you have to graduate and you're getting there. Boots/pads/more road work is going to cut transition time way shorter as well.


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## TPO (28 September 2015)

Movement is key (along with diet) BUT you need the horse to be taking comfortable steps. There is nothing to gain in making a horse walk over a surface that he is sore on.

Boots (and pads) are your best bet to enable him to take comfortable steps. If you have a school/grass/smooth tarmac, basically any surface he is comfortable on, then walk him without boots over them gradually increasing the time. His feet will strengthen and you can change/remove the pads you are using and increase the time out of boots and varying surfaces you work him over.

Are you using a farrier or a "trimmer"?

Some horses don't do well with Fast Fibre (it contains "NIS" - nutritionally improved straw which is basically straw broken down with caustic (I believe) chemicals to make it digestible in the equine gut and oatfeed) and Hi-fi (again contains NIS and Alfa). I'm presuming from the relatively low calorie feeds that your horse doesn't need condition? A plain grass chop with the linseed and Pro Hoof might be enough. Some horses who are sensitive to alfa in chop cope with it find as a soaked feed like Alfabeet. It's a lot of trial and error to find out what works for each horse as they all vary so much. 

I found the "Hoof Guided Method" by Maureen Tierny a good help. I have every "barefoot" book I can find but this is the smallest (and cheapest at £15) but it made the most sense. It illustrates the points that missyclare has made re the toes pulling the hoof forward and the sole ridges to indicate where/how to trim the toe back. 

Best of luck, it will be worth it


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## cellie (2 October 2015)

missyclare said:



			So, was the navicular definitely diagnosed by xray or are you dealing with some kind of pain in the back of the foot? Is the navicular foot the boxy foot? I wonder how long the heels are at this point If the boxy foot has not quite "come around" yet, then it probably was the one with the worst pathology to get over and is being favored more so than the rest. This makes the growth pile on like that. Makes sense to me...keep patience on your sleeve. Heck, it takes a full year to grow a new hoof and here you are only a few months down the road and things are looking much improved.  It all sounds like a good run so far and yes, boots with those magical pads and more roadwork. The things that come to mind that would lock in contracted heels are thrush, still a long toe pulling, uncleared quarters, excessive bars holding in false sole at the back of the hoof and a heel that is still too long and a frog not ready. The boots with pads with the road work will develop the back of the hoof and the concavity, that allows the farrier to "arrive" with his trim. I also believe that more roadwork is going to put you on top of this. This journey is called transition, you have to graduate and you're getting there. Boots/pads/more road work is going to cut transition time way shorter as well.
		
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 thanks for reply I've had X-rays lollipop lesions were present . Frog looking really healthy after initial development of thrush . The new hoof is much less contracted . Road work is not good option at moment he hypher feeling much better and I need time in saddle o get him listening again . Thinking of investing in calmer as well . He's 7 to so going through rebellious period as he's had time off


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## cellie (2 October 2015)

TPO said:



			Movement is key (along with diet) BUT you need the horse to be taking comfortable steps. There is nothing to gain in making a horse walk over a surface that he is sore on.

Boots (and pads) are your best bet to enable him to take comfortable steps. If you have a school/grass/smooth tarmac, basically any surface he is comfortable on, then walk him without boots over them gradually increasing the time. His feet will strengthen and you can change/remove the pads you are using and increase the time out of boots and varying surfaces you work him over.

Are you using a farrier or a "trimmer"?

Some horses don't do well with Fast Fibre (it contains "NIS" - nutritionally improved straw which is basically straw broken down with caustic (I believe) chemicals to make it digestible in the equine gut and oatfeed) and Hi-fi (again contains NIS and Alfa). I'm presuming from the relatively low calorie feeds that your horse doesn't need condition? A plain grass chop with the linseed and Pro Hoof might be enough. Some horses who are sensitive to alfa in chop cope with it find as a soaked feed like Alfabeet. It's a lot of trial and error to find out what works for each horse as they all vary so much. 

I found the "Hoof Guided Method" by Maureen Tierny a good help. I have every "barefoot" book I can find but this is the smallest (and cheapest at £15) but it made the most sense. It illustrates the points that missyclare has made re the toes pulling the hoof forward and the sole ridges to indicate where/how to trim the toe back. 

Best of luck, it will be worth it
		
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 I need calories but use linseed he's tb fibre is to try and keep level head which isn't working to well at moment . I'll take another look at feed thanks . I use a farrier but can't do anything too fast as he reacts to just rasping so we will have to Change things gradually . Farrier said he is starting to self trim already . Hooves are improving all time and only just started using pads and boots for ridden work . Hopefully I can get him back on roads when he calms down . Thanks


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## tallyho! (2 October 2015)

Definitely add salt.

I think just keep up with the walking in boots or bare, whatever is comfortable on the day as each day is different I found with my navicular rehab. Food wise, I laid off the alfalfa and stuck to grass and speedibeet with a copper rich supplement. Seemed to do the trick but each horse is different. Yours will be different. I have a horse that does best on absolutely nothing whatsoever barefoot. Just grass. Happy days!

Back to my gelding, I turned him away over winter (October - December) and was absolutely amazed at the changes!! We had a really frozen year that year too which I think helped enormously as his foot grew really strong on the hard ground. He never looked lame out there and had two other geldings he played with. In January I was leading him out bare on tarmac. Tarmac is fantastic stuff for rehab. By June we were dressage schooling, and then in October did a couple of HT's out and about. We were 3rd in one. 

It can be done. It's early days and every horse has different needs. There is no prescribed time or method. Feel your way, sounds like your farrier has lots of experience. I think the key is to find people who have lots of experience with proper barefoot, not just a farrier that does cheap pasture trims. They often cause more harm or prolong the process. 

It comes down to your knowledge too, as barefoot is not mainstream. People have opinions and what works for one person in County Durham is going to be different for someone in Bristol. For all sorts of reasons. So, just arm yourself with as much self-education as possible. Research research research. 

It's great we can share experience on a forum too and that adds to it. Hope you're feeling supported anyway. Navicular will come right, what you're aiming for is building strength, space and flexibility back to that area that has been impinged and compromised. Taking shoes off has removed 90% of the problem and now that leaves the fine tuning with diet and exercise and time to heal.


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## cellie (3 October 2015)

There's a lot of info on Internet like you said applying to your own needs and fine tuning . Biggest problem at moment is bringing him into work sensibly . He's now bit more rebellious to the 4 yr old I started with .7 yrs old and too much energy that can't be channelled  some days I feel like he's going to send me into orbit . I'm just picking my moments I'm no good to him broken . I tried walking him over poles fore core strengthening  and he's so full of energy he is trying to jump and is effectively lunging which is not great idea . I'm going to get calmer see if that helps until we can get more discipline . Either that or employ stunt rider &#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;


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## tallyho! (3 October 2015)

cellie said:



			There's a lot of info on Internet like you said applying to your own needs and fine tuning . Biggest problem at moment is bringing him into work sensibly . He's now bit more rebellious to the 4 yr old I started with .7 yrs old and too much energy that can't be channelled  some days I feel like he's going to send me into orbit . I'm just picking my moments I'm no good to him broken . I tried walking him over poles fore core strengthening  and he's so full of energy he is trying to jump and is effectively lunging which is not great idea . I'm going to get calmer see if that helps until we can get more discipline . Either that or employ stunt rider &#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;
		
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Sorry, why is lungeing over poles not a good idea?


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## ycbm (4 October 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Sorry, why is lungeing over poles not a good idea?
		
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One key test for navicular syndrome lameness is to lunge in a circle because that exposes the lameness. The reason for that is that is where the most damage is caused. So in rehabbing a navicular horse, you want it sound on straight lines before you put it on circles, preferably. Adding poles to a circle would be about the last exercise I would want a horse like Cellie's to be doing at the moment.


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## tallyho! (4 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			One key test for navicular syndrome lameness is to lunge in a circle because that exposes the lameness. The reason for that is that is where the most damage is caused. So in rehabbing a navicular horse, you want it sound on straight lines before you put it on circles, preferably. Adding poles to a circle would be about the last exercise I would want a horse like Cellie's to be doing at the moment.
		
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Not the school of thought for my navicular... although we are not talking making the horse go round like a bucket on the end of a rope here...

Just do it gently on a soft surface. Any exercise is beneficial. make sure it is gentle.


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## cellie (5 October 2015)

Tally ho not quite sure what you mean ...are you saying work in school is helping your horse ? I find deep surface is harder for mine although hoof boots have helped as soft surface doesn't push into soft tissues . Mines more comfortable on grass . One hoof is still very contracted at heel although it is opening . Just not sure how long it's going to take before he's really comfortable ridden . Are you lunging or just walking on lunge ?


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## tallyho! (5 October 2015)

cellie said:



			Tally ho not quite sure what you mean ...are you saying work in school is helping your horse ? I find deep surface is harder for mine although hoof boots have helped as soft surface doesn't push into soft tissues . Mines more comfortable on grass . One hoof is still very contracted at heel although it is opening . Just not sure how long it's going to take before he's really comfortable ridden . Are you lunging or just walking on lunge ?
		
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I don't have an arena so only ever worked on grass. 

ycbm is making assumptions about lungeing... you can promote exercise on the ground in walk if you like on a lungeline. Exercise is the ultimate goal no matter how it is done. You are building strength in the hoof capsule.


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## ycbm (5 October 2015)

tallyho! said:



			I don't have an arena so only ever worked on grass. 

ycbm is making assumptions about lungeing... you can promote exercise on the ground in walk if you like on a lungeline. Exercise is the ultimate goal no matter how it is done. You are building strength in the hoof capsule.
		
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I do not agree with you. If a horse has unbalanced feet, and particularly if there is collateral ligament damage, then I would not want it working in any area where it is constantly required to be turning corners or circles. There is a reason why turning corners is usually where navicular type lameness first shows up.

The objective is not just to build a stronger foot. The primary objective is to  allow the soft tissue damage which creates the lameness to recover, and only subsequently supporting it and preventing it becoming damaged again by building a better strength foot. It's not just about a new foot, the damage has to be allowed to recover, and work on straight lines on supportive flat surfaces is more likely to achieve that result than turns and circles.

Tallyho, you are the only person I have ever seen advocate arena work and lunge work for the early stages of a navicular rehab.


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## paddy555 (6 October 2015)

to get over your riding difficulties have you considered adding magox? I realise there is magox in pro hoof but adding a bit more has been known to act as a calmer and it is probably a lot cheaper than buying a calmer. 

I add salt to my barefoot horses feed. They get around 50ml per day (500kgs)  they also get a good 20ml scoop daily of bicarb (sodium hydrogen carbonate) I found the addition of bicarb had  very noticeable effects for one horse.


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## tallyho! (6 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			I do not agree with you. If a horse has unbalanced feet, and particularly if there is collateral ligament damage, then I would not want it working in any area where it is constantly required to be turning corners or circles. There is a reason why turning corners is usually where navicular type lameness first shows up.

The objective is not just to build a stronger foot. The primary objective is to  allow the soft tissue damage which creates the lameness to recover, and only subsequently supporting it and preventing it becoming damaged again by building a better strength foot. It's not just about a new foot, the damage has to be allowed to recover, and work on straight lines on supportive flat surfaces is more likely to achieve that result than turns and circles.

Tallyho, you are the only person I have ever seen advocate arena work and lunge work for the early stages of a navicular rehab.
		
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Can you tell me where I have used corners? Is a wide circle a corner? If so, thats a new one on me. 

Thank you ycbm. There is a first for everything and my boy recovered fully in spite of my terrible lunging habit.


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## ycbm (6 October 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Can you tell me where I have used corners? Is a wide circle a corner? If so, thats a new one on me. 

Thank you ycbm. There is a first for everything and my boy recovered fully in spite of my terrible lunging habit.
		
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I don't know of any lunge line available that would create what I would describe as a wide circle. A circle is a continuous corner, yes.

Some people may have no choice. But if straight line work is available, then imo it would not be sensible to work a navicular horse early in its rehab in a normal size arena, or on the lunge at any time and especially not on the lunge over poles as the OP rightly said she would not be doing (which is where our disagreement started).

I am glad that your horse recovered.


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## tallyho! (6 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			I don't know of any lunge line available that would create what I would describe as a wide circle. A circle is a continuous corner, yes.

Some people may have no choice. But if straight line work is available, then imo it would not be sensible to work a navicular horse early in its rehab in a normal size arena, or on the lunge at any time and especially not on the lunge over poles as the OP rightly said she would not be doing (which is where our disagreement started).

I am glad that your horse recovered.
		
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I can't see where I recommended poles either but, thank you.


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## ycbm (6 October 2015)

Here



tallyho! said:



			Sorry, why is lungeing over poles not a good idea?
		
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I answered why, you told me I was wrong.


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## tallyho! (7 October 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Not the school of thought for my navicular... although we are not talking making the horse go round like a bucket on the end of a rope here...

Just do it gently on a soft surface. Any exercise is beneficial. make sure it is gentle.
		
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ycbm said:



			Here




I answered why, you told me I was wrong.
		
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Yes so I answered... you are taking everything I say way out of context ycbm... what is it you're really trying to get at? I don't know that I've purposely gone out of my way to offend you?

Are you the vet here?

There are lots of vets and physio out there with some ideas that may be different to your beliefs. The ultimate aim is to get the horse well. You're welcome to speak to my vet if you seek justification to my actions so fervently.


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## ycbm (7 October 2015)

tallyho! said:



			Yes so I answered... you are taking everything I say way out of context ycbm... what is it you're really trying to get at? I don't know that I've purposely gone out of my way to offend you?

Are you the vet here?

There are lots of vets and physio out there with some ideas that may be different to your beliefs. The ultimate aim is to get the horse well. You're welcome to speak to my vet if you seek justification to my actions so fervently.
		
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I am trying to make sure that people reading this thread who are trying to rehab a horse for navicular which is still on the early days of recovery like the OPs horse don't think that it is recommended practice to lunge the horse as part of the rehab.

Vets don't have a great record in knowing how to cure navicular syndrome, so no, I don't want to chat to a vet who told you to lunge a navicular horse thanks.

I don't have anything personal against you Tallyho, but surely you can't blame me for answering you on the pole question? . I am glad that your horse recovered. I am concerned for the people whose horses have not yet recovered. I am sorry that has offended you.


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## cellie (7 October 2015)

paddy555 said:



			to get over your riding difficulties have you considered adding magox? I realise there is magox in pro hoof but adding a bit more has been known to act as a calmer and it is probably a lot cheaper than buying a calmer. 

I add salt to my barefoot horses feed. They get around 50ml per day (500kgs)  they also get a good 20ml scoop daily of bicarb (sodium hydrogen carbonate) I found the addition of bicarb had  very noticeable effects for one horse.[/QUOTE.                Mag ox hadsnt helped in past and new hoof supplement has magnesium in it . I've Just started adding salt hoping tweaking his diet will help . I've added valerian last few days and can already feel a difference . Hes normally stressed in stable on his own but was happy enough last night . I'd like to do abit more so he can self trim and improve this boxy hoof &#128512;
		
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## tallyho! (7 October 2015)

Good luck Cellie, these things take time. I remember how stressed I felt at the time. Really hope he comes right


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