# Border Collie breeder advice



## cyberhorse (28 January 2013)

We lost our BC last April and feel we can now move on and welcome another collie into our home. Our last dog we found at a rescue by word of mouth so we did not have any experience with a breeders. We want someone who cares about the dogs they breed and has all the health checks done, but understands we want a member of the family not a top end show dog. The only breeders that we have found so far either don't health check or do and want the dog to go to a competitive showing home and allocate you a dog so you have no choice at all. Don't get me wrong we are not against interviews and being checked out and certain puppies being recommended on temperament to suit our home - indeed we would prefer it! I suppose I am looking for the elusive middle ground.  If anyone can recommend someone we would be most grateful. We are in NW England, but will travel!


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## s4sugar (28 January 2013)

Try here -
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/findaclub/display.aspx?id=1698

If you want a pet be specific - colour, sex markings, and ask the owners of stud dogs to keep you in mind. A breeder should be breeding for themselves and are not going to let a pet owner have first pick and if they know their lines they should be able to match the best one for you -if they don't get one available that fits your preference they should pass you along.

Avoid the ones who don't health test and don't disregard ISDS registered litters. The working people will often let the softer pups go as pets as they wanrt the keener ones. ISDS or KC (breed not activity register) registration is critical as there are a lot of recessive conditions that can hopefully be avoided by testing before breeding.


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## Steeleye Span (28 January 2013)

I come from the South East which might be a little far for you to travel but Tazaeos or Nobite Border Collies might be the kind of breeder that would fit the bill.  I have had 3 beautiful BCs with the Tazaeos affix.  My dogs have been companions rather than competative or show dogs and health checks were completed. Might be worth Googling
Alternatively you might try one of the BC specific rescues  BC Trust, Wiccaweys, The Freedom of Spirit Trust for Border Collies.  Good luck.


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## Sprout (28 January 2013)

We got our Collie from MASTAMARINER bear Basingstoke in Hampshire, 6 years ago now.
I have had Collies before, but this one is absolutely AMAZING! She has the most laid back, friendly temp I have ever known in a Collie, is easy to train, calm in the house, goes everywhere with us, and is totally friendly with strangers, children etc.

They take their breeding very seriously, and give masses of advice and support to new owners. We went and met them and their dogs, then waited a year for Daisy to come into our lives, she was worth it.

Do pm me if you want any more info, and good luck with your search.


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## NeverSayNever (28 January 2013)

ditto not disregarding ISDS litters - it depends what you want; if you want a BC that looks like the classic christmas card idea of a black and white, rough coated, evenly marked dog (with shorter legs it seems also) then you would have more luck going KC... however personally, I dont like show lines very much. All my dogs are iSDS and some are very laid back and lovely house pets. Have a look on the ISDS website and there is a list of breeders.


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## BWa (28 January 2013)

Maybe try a farmer breeding from working dogs, they might not do all the health checks but they usually have a very good knowledge of the line they are breeding.


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## mon (28 January 2013)

She is in Scotland Astra sheepdogs Janet Beale spade is a spade but look at her website and give her a try been in working trial collies a long time use to know her when she lived peterborough way.


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## cyberhorse (28 January 2013)

Thanks, some good suggestions there. The KC thing is not essential, but I thought more likely to keep me safely away from any puppy farms or people breeding from stolen dogs etc. I will have a look at ISDS litters thanks for the tip! I really do not care about colour, markings or build/type so long as anything is not detrimental to the health of the dog. 

Unfortunately I think finding a rescue this time would be to much of a long shot given we now have cats, horses, chickens and another dog.


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## Luci07 (28 January 2013)

cyberhorse said:



			Unfortunately I think finding a rescue this time would be to much of a long shot given we now have cats, horses, chickens and another dog.
		
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Not necessarily. Good rescues assess their dogs and are pretty informative. You also get the chance to have your dog meet with a potential new friend to check all is alright and a trial period. Might just be worth a thought..


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## Alec Swan (28 January 2013)

I keep work collies and have for years.  Depending upon your input,  OR your lack of it,  will be dependant upon what you get.  

The collie needs a level of stimulation which,  though not peculiar to that breed,  can also be a depending influence.  The collie can be the most wonderful companion,  or the worst,  and again,  that will be reliant upon your input.

No number of health checks or recommendations,  will give any assurance of success;  that will be dependant (not an intentionally popular word,  but it fits),  upon your level of input,  and if you are to take on a collie,  then they need daily stimulation,  without it,  they can all so often be a liability.

It isn't my intention to dissuade you , but to reinforce that they aren't really,  *just* pets.

Alec.


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## cyberhorse (28 January 2013)

We are aware of what is entailed in living with a collie. My previous collie came to me at 11 months old from rescue having been labelled as "too difficult" - basically no longer a cute fluffy puppy. She had not been socialised and was scared of everything in the house and outside of it, she would shake and submissively urinate if anyone she did not know well approached her. This was in addition to having the usual collie energy and drive to channel. It took us 3 years to fully give her what she needed to be the dog she always should have been. This was all because someone thought a collie puppy was cute, so I can understand your point.

My point is that she developed eye problems and a heart defect both of which were genetic (confirmed by specialist vets in each field) and I really feel breeders should be very focused on health. Unfortunately so far the focus has been on "type" and "show ring conformation" when we ask about health of the lines and health checks. We had to put her to sleep this April at 7 1/2 yrs old when her heart valve ruptured, to say that it was traumatic and devastating is an understatement. I do not want to support any breeder who is not concerned about the health of their puppies/lines as their top priority. I also worry about socialisation and those crucial first 8 weeks with mum. Sadly I have already been offered puppies well under 8 weeks. 

I do not expect the breeder to be responsible for how the dog turns out, but I can avoid starting from a point of pre-existing problems. Hence the post to get some recommendations.


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## Skippys Mum (28 January 2013)

I seem to just "aquire" my collies - they seem to find me.  I currently have 2 - one from a farm with no paperwork and one with full ISDS registration.  The ISDS boy is, on paper, a fabulous dog but he definitely has issues.  He is a red tri colour and I have to say, I will never again have a red collie.  I love him dearly but he has a slightly unstable temperament.  I am able to deal with him as I am well used to collies but in an inexperienced home I think he would have been in trouble.  He is not good with children, other dogs and will bite if provoked.  Seeing him on his own I would have put it down to a one off dog (I didnt get him as a baby and he had been poorly socialised and repeatedly smacked.  He also had an ongoing kidney problem which caused him bother and has left him a bit err, strange).  The weird thing is that I now know about 8 other red collies and they are all a bit dodgy temperament wise.  3 have had to be pts for biting .  None of these dogs are related - the only common factor is the colour.

Maybe its just sheer chance but its not one I'll be taking in the future


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## Evie91 (28 January 2013)

We have a collie from Wiccaweys rescue. They're brilliant - always have dogs of various ages from puppies to older dogs. 
They matched us with our dog and I have a horse and two cats. So may well be worth a look


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## Wundahorse (29 January 2013)

I have two ISDS collies who have been brilliant ti train,although one is sharper than the other,who are both half brothers from the same Farmer.I can take my dogs anywhere,and we even venture over to France for holidays,which they love.Both Collies are tough and look very fit,even though they are now 9,and 8 respectively.One of them loves children,and women and simply cannot resist raising the odd skirt with his nose,proceeded by apologies.The younger one is very much a one person dog and quite nervous due to him being gravely ill as a puppy.As i nursed him through this illness he formed an eternal attachment to me and simply will only follow me.I do believe the working strain is more robust as they are bred for purpose,rather than show.


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## cyberhorse (29 January 2013)

Just an update and a couple more questions. Would you be worried if a litter you enquired about was listed as full health checked and assured, and when you questioned harder it was clinical rather than genetic testing for eye problems and no hip/elbow scores mentioned? 

Also after some digging the particular mating had one dog in common on both sides at the grandparent/great-grandparent level? How distant does it have to be not to class as inbreeding? Would this worry you or am I being OTT again?  I just would not do this with my chicken breeding even though birds are designed to breed in closed groups (I have a medical background so genetic diversity is instilled in me). The pups are KC reg and from a registered breeder who obviously I won't be naming. I do not want to be going and wasting anyone's time. I had contacted this person before having advice about ISDS dogs on here and my husband thinks I am dismissing everything without an open mind.

Another litter I had enquired about (just a nice sounding farm) dad is a red collie, anyone else heard what Skippy's Mum has about them?


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## s4sugar (29 January 2013)

A shared, noted, GGparent is not inbreeding but a good linebred pedigree is better than a mishmash pedigree.

Eye testing is clinical and there is also a DNA test. It is possible to have heretitary clears from some conditions but in that case you would be able to check that each generation from the clear tests has been solidly checked unaffected.
HD is x rays. No tests -don't hand them any money.

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/breed/health.aspx?id=5166

Redf collies are like coloured horses - would they be bred from if they were a commoner colour? I saw a red collie at an eye test session last summer. He had sired several litters and was totally blind. The owners were of the "what use are papers" opinion.


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## Wundahorse (29 January 2013)

I have a wonderful red Collie who is handsome,biddable and affable,and who just wants to please.Don't be put off by colour. i would feel uneasy about the inbreeding element too.


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## NeverSayNever (29 January 2013)

tbh the stud dogs all mine are by have had every health test going but often the bitches arent hipscored and have only been eye tested - however it being lines I know and strong working lines at that, Ive never had any concerns. 

I have a red dog and know a lot of red dogs as well....  I can think of 5 I know off the top of my head, including my own and 4 of those 5 _are_ nutters who have not the most even of temperaments Im afaid, the other 1 is fine (and that one is one of the red dogs featured on one of the links i sent you op). My belief is that reds are prone to being less steady, even slightly nuts lol, in the same way you might hear the same about a chestnut mare, however like everything else there are also very good ones and you cant tar them all with the same brush. I think there is definitely a link with colours and behaviour, afterall cocker rage is predominant in solid red cockers. I have to be honest and say I wouldnt have another red.


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## cyberhorse (29 January 2013)

My other dog is from a KC breeder, but the breeder had documents for mum and dad - hip scores, annual written health certificates for general health, optigen testing for PRA and my dog is actually a crossbreed/mongrel in truth! I kind of believe if there is not documentation and genetic testing I am taking a risk. My vet has said most dogs breed at an age before conditions arise so unless there is a long known family line, I should insist on seeing genetic certificates. 

I will take the red thing seriously. My neighbor went through the spaniel rage experience with a American Cocker.


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## Alec Swan (29 January 2013)

cyberhorse said:



			Just an update and a couple more questions. Would you be worried if a litter you enquired about was listed as full health checked and assured, and when you questioned harder it was clinical rather than genetic testing for eye problems and no hip/elbow scores mentioned? 
um .......
		
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I suspect that you are looking for problems which simply don't exist.  The simple fact is that IF I found a litter of collie pups which arrived with assurances,  then that would be of greater concern to me.

Alec.


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## cyberhorse (30 January 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I suspect that you are looking for problems which simply don't exist.  The simple fact is that IF I found a litter of collie pups which arrived with assurances,  then that would be of greater concern to me.

Alec.
		
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Why would it be of greater concern?


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## Wundahorse (30 January 2013)

I can only assume no breeder can offer absolute assurances about potential health problems.Like all species at some point in life all kinds of ailments can arise,and often they cannot be predicted.I had the loveliest Collie some years ago,from a good breeder,but at the age of 5 she collapsed with a slipped lumbar disc.The RVC saved her on that occasion.A few years later the same occurred in her neck,so another trip to the RVC who again saved her.She lived to the age of 13,but none of these problems could have been predicted by the breeder.All the other litter mates had no such problems.Sometimes life is a game of chance.If the breeder is a recommended one,then i would tend to follow that advice,and also make sure you see the parents,if possible.I saw both parents of my current Collies,and the farmer put Dad through his paces for us to show what a superb sheepdog he was.


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## ralph and maverick (30 January 2013)

My friend bought a Nobite BC last year, she is a lively little dog, the breeder does all the relevant tests etc and is really quite picky from what I heard about where they go. I "think" she is based Cambridge way


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## ralph and maverick (30 January 2013)

*lovely but also lively!


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## Alec Swan (31 January 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I suspect that you are looking for problems which simply don't exist.  The simple fact is that IF I found a litter of collie pups which arrived with assurances,  then that would be of greater concern to me.

Alec.
		
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cyberhorse said:



			Why would it be of greater concern?
		
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Because despite all the assurances of tests,  NO breeder can give you a warranty of health soundness.  Collies,  those of working strain and type,  will most probably NOT be peas-in-a-pod.  They can be,  and all so often are,  so dissimilar when they've grown,  that they don't even resemble their parents,  far less each other!

I've had a few sheepdogs over the years,  and whilst we can look at a 16 week old puppy,  and see what's before us,  when they're younger than that,  I'd want to see BOTH parents.  It matters.  I want to see dogs which when spoken to by their owners,  make eye contact.  I want to see an owner/dog bond.  I want an indication that when I look at the parents,  I may,  _just may_ ,  end up with a trainable and constant companion.  One of worth.

The last paragraph applies to work bred dogs.  If you want a puppy from show breeding,  then I suppose that you will have to rely upon the stated tests.  It'll be better than nothing. 

Alec.


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## NeverSayNever (31 January 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Because despite all the assurances of tests,  NO breeder can give you a warranty of health soundness.  Collies,  those of working strain and type,  will most probably NOT be peas-in-a-pod.  They can be,  and all so often are,  so dissimilar when they've grown,  that they don't even resemble their parents,  far less each other!
.
		
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this is very true - ive seen litters grow up that you would have no idea at all were even related when you see them together, all so so different!!

Id only ever look at ISDS reg litters. Make sure hip scores and eye tests are done in the Stud dog and eyes at least in the bitch, and I make sure Im happy with what I see in the parents and often the greater extended family. I see them work and appraise the temperament and conformation and do some research on the line itself that Im looking at.  Most working lines don't carry the same incidence of genetic problems. That's all enough to satisfy me; mainly seeing the father, mother, auntie, cousin etc of a pup I am interested in, simply burn up the steepest hillside in the flash of an eye, gather sheep from afar and scale all manner of terrain and return with shining eyes and barely panting is enough assurance for me!  You can never be 100% sure and Im sure the OP knows this - Ive suffered the terrible loss of a young dog at 18 months due to a gut abnormality and one of my best bitches went deaf aged 4. Both these dogs come from astoundingly good lines, both cases were just one of those things and not anything genetic.


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## JFTDWS (1 February 2013)

mon said:



			She is in Scotland Astra sheepdogs Janet Beale spade is a spade but look at her website and give her a try been in working trial collies a long time use to know her when she lived peterborough way.
		
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My last collie was by Astra Mars and was fabulous.  I got him and my current lad from the Bartok stud in East Sussex.  Very responsible breeder with an interest in genetics and sensible breeding


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## cyberhorse (5 February 2013)

Found my pup!!! I went to see someone at the weekend who seemed on the same page with regard to breeding. She mainly breeds horses, but has one litter a year. Mum was fantastic, really lovely temperament, obedient, people orientated and from more working lines than show lines. Dad is all fully tested and a nice dog too. The pups are in the home with lots of other animals and already good with cats. One in particular seemed to choose us. He is lively and very inquisitive, comes up and sits with his paws on your leg looking up at you to see what's going on - very people orientated. Just got that good feeling about everything, and the pup in question. He is 5 weeks at the moment so has got three weeks to go and he can come home. Fingers crossed he settles in well.

Thanks everyone for the help/advice!


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## NeverSayNever (5 February 2013)

cyberhorse said:



			Found my pup!!! I went to see someone at the weekend who seemed on the same page with regard to breeding. She mainly breeds horses, but has one litter a year. Mum was fantastic, really lovely temperament, obedient, people orientated and from more working lines than show lines. Dad is all fully tested and a nice dog too. The pups are in the home with lots of other animals and already good with cats. One in particular seemed to choose us. He is lively and very inquisitive, comes up and sits with his paws on your leg looking up at you to see what's going on - very people orientated. Just got that good feeling about everything, and the pup in question. He is 5 weeks at the moment so has got three weeks to go and he can come home. Fingers crossed he settles in well.

Thanks everyone for the help/advice!
		
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great news


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## Steeleye Span (6 February 2013)

Fabulous!  He sounds ideal


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