# Water deprivation as a training tool



## Grayson (26 May 2012)

Last week I had cause to complain to Horse & Country TV and Ofcom that a program H&C showed indicated that to establish leadership and make your horse dependent on you as provider, it was fine to limit its access to water.

I pointed out that if the program were shown anywhere in EU, where the animal welfare legislation specifically states, as it does in UK, that horses should have permanent access to water or offered it every four to six hours, then the TV station could be seen as promoting a practice that breached animal welfare law.

Horse & Country replied promptly:
Dear Grayson,

Thank you very much for contacting Horse & Country TV and for expressing your concern about a section of [the program].

We take matters of animal welfare very seriously at H&C. We will review the episode straightaway for any future broadcasts.

Best regards,

H&C TV team​
Ofcom are still investigating.

Yesterday, I received an email from someone in US involved in investigating equine welfare crimes for twenty years. My informant was at the Colorado farm of the trainer in the H&C programme, and noticed 
" the horses were kept in outside pens with no shade. There was no water kept in the pens. The "pen" horses were led by the humans twice a day to drink. [The trainer's] ranch is at high elevation and the sun can be brutal. When I was there the horses were fed hay cubes. Hay cubes + high elevation + no water or shelter = poor management."​
The email tells me that two years later on, matters at the trainer's ranch had gone from bad to worse: 
" I received a call from a vet who had performed two necropsies on two horses that died that week. They died of renal failure due to water deprivation. There were 30 plus head of horses turned out in a large pasture with no water."​
My informant is clear about the reason for the renal failure: the trainer 
"would whistle, open a gate and let the horses drink for 15 minutes and then they would run the horses out."​
There was a 300 gallon water container for the 30 horses*, the dominant horses would get their fill, horses number 29 and 30 died of thirst after two days! The Colorado State Vet was informed and 'investigations' began, but failed to result in prosecution on that occasion. 
"Because of the way the laws are written and [the trainer's] power there was nothing to be done."​
The email ended:
"I get a little heated up when I hear these things are still continuing. [The trainer] is nothing short of an egotistical bully. His media market machine is so powerful they crush any criticism. They are tricky, too, as they have allied themselves with the Humane Society of the United States...what a perfect cover. However, I know what I know...and I know that whatever "talent" he may have had as a horseman is sullied and tainted by his cruel ego. It has nothing to do with the love of horses and their wellbeing.

It sickens me. People are stupidly naive following the Pied Piper without "seeing" the reality.
The horses are the innocent victims....they are prisoners of their jailers. At every turn we must be advocates for their wellbeing.

From someone who has witnessed things as above first hand."​
My informant wishes as many people as possible to be aware of what is happening but has so far received physical threats and been warned of reprisals from the training organisation. If there is a ground swell of support and any legal case made to deny the allegations, my informant will proudly stand up in court as a witness to the abuse observed.

Water deprivation is a cruel and abusive way to treat a horse. The ironic thing is that it can only serve to boost the ego of the trainer, it has no benefit to the horse and there any many more useful, natural, simpler and sympathetic ways to establish your role as leader. The sad thing is that there are students of such trainers who will find any number of excuses to support his teaching.

At the end of the day, we need to ask who benefits. Is what I just did of benefit to my horse, or does it benefit me? If the answer is you, you have to be very sure of the ethics behind the activity. If the action breaches the best animal welfare laws of any civilised country, you have to question how you understand the word 'ethics'.

* _Note UK legislation is clear how much water horses need:
The amount of water required will vary depending on the individual horse but can range from 25-50 litres per day for an average size adult horse (around 5 litres per 100 kg bodyweight per day). The volume required will increase in hot weather​From this we are looking at a minimum of 6 gallons for a small horse in our normal climate. When comparing with the US gallon, a 300 gallon tank when full would hold 250 Imperial gallons. If the tank were full, in the heat of Colorado, it might fill the needs of 25 thirsty Mustangs or just about all thirty *if* they have free access to it all day long._


----------



## amandap (26 May 2012)

Depriving any animal of basic needs to live (air, water and food) is not training but abuse and illegal in this country. It still goes on though...


----------



## Wagtail (26 May 2012)

Who is this trainer? Is he very well known?


----------



## cefyl (26 May 2012)

amandap said:



			Depriving any animal of basic needs to live (air, water and food) is not training but abuse and illegal in this country. It still goes on though... 

Click to expand...

Sadly yes it does.  I was told last week of a well known show producer who ties their ponies and horses up from at least the afternoon before a show so that they cannot lie down, drink, eat in order to make them "quiet" for the show . Not the first case like this I have heard of, been going on for years.


----------



## Equilibrium Ireland (26 May 2012)

Yeah very hard to fight a cause when you don't know who is responsible. I know of one very high profile NH trainer with a ranch in Colorado. 

Of course everyone knows, and how couldn't you, that horses need access to clean fresh water at all times. 

FYI the Bedouins do the exact same and I hardly think that will change. Not Arabs, I'm on about TB racehorses. 

Terri


----------



## Wagtail (26 May 2012)

So is this trainer who we think it is?


----------



## Patterdale (26 May 2012)

I'm guessing so....our old friend!

On a TOTALLY unrelated note, I'd love to spend a week 'training' Pat Parelli using some of his own methods....


----------



## Wagtail (26 May 2012)

patterdale said:



			I'm guessing so....our old friend!

On a TOTALLY unrelated note, I'd love to spend a week 'training' Pat Parelli using some of his own methods....
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Equilibrium Ireland (26 May 2012)

I think so and totally agree with Patterdale! 

Terri


----------



## Wagtail (26 May 2012)

It does make me angry how much money these people are taking from their 'followers'. These followers would be appalled and shocked by this and other exposures of cruelty. Yet they seem to be able to smooth it over and are forgiven again and again.


----------



## Patterdale (26 May 2012)

Maybe he's some kind of voodoo man and heavily into black magic. Would explain a lot and I'd be totally NOT surprised.


----------



## Patterdale (26 May 2012)

Maybe we should send him a big dog poo in a shoebox? Probably wouldn't achieve much but I bet we'd feel better.....


----------



## JFTDWS (26 May 2012)

patterdale said:



			Maybe he's some kind of voodoo man and heavily into black magic. Would explain a lot and I'd be totally NOT surprised.
		
Click to expand...

That actually sounds rather plausible...

*wanders off to make PP voodoo doll and buy some pins...*


----------



## Goldenstar (26 May 2012)

Withholding water to quieten behaviour is as old as the hills In Middlemarch a novel see in a Georgian country town ( George Elliott ) a naive young man is conned into buying a vicious horse because the dealer has withheld water before the viewing.
To use dehydration as a NH training tool is completly unacceptable and has no place in the modern world these people make me sick.


----------



## Feathered (26 May 2012)

Just when you think you've heard it all.....

It gets worse :$


----------



## Patterdale (26 May 2012)

Do u think Linda withholds Pats water to make him more obedient?

'No Pat, I am your leader...'


----------



## Goldenstar (26 May 2012)

patterdale said:



			Do u think Linda withholds Pats water to make him more obedient?

'No Pat, I am your leader...'
		
Click to expand...

Then clunks him on the nose with a lead rien clip.


----------



## amandap (26 May 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Withholding water to quieten behaviour is as old as the hills In Middlemarch a novel see in a Georgian country town ( George Elliott ) a naive young man is conned into buying a vicious horse because the dealer has withheld water before the viewing.
To use dehydration as a NH training tool is completly unacceptable and has no place in the modern world these people make me sick.
		
Click to expand...

I agree but I also strongly think it's unacceptable for any reason except medical and has NO place in 'modern' horsemanship full stop.


----------



## SpottedCat (26 May 2012)

I also think its a pretty grim thing to do...but know of more than one top level eventer (3*/4*) who think its perfectly acceptable to withhold water overnight and on the day of the dressage to make the horse more manageable. It goes on more than people think as it doesn't show up in a dope test!


----------



## Goldenstar (26 May 2012)

amandap said:



			I agree but I also strongly think it's unacceptable for any reason except medical and has NO place in 'modern' horsemanship full stop.
		
Click to expand...

yup I should have been clearer I have heard of it a big dealers when I was young long long time ago.
The only time it might be acceptable that I an think of is to force feral horses into an area where you could enclose them if you could not catch them and where in real trouble in a last resort type of situation.


----------



## cornbrodolly (26 May 2012)

Depriving water has NO place in any training  system ; apart from the cruelty of constant thirst there must be long term damage to kidneys? As both a 'show' er and an N H er , I would never condone this . Please dont tar all N H with the same brush!
 It was bad enough when we imported a horse from Germany , with a big transporter- said horse had no water or hay for 6 hours from Dover , and stepped out of the lorry 2 inches smaller and exhausted .Also,I failed to get my big cob measered in , couldnt do the no water trick.....


----------



## milesjess (26 May 2012)

Disgrace! I spend 5-7 hours in the sun at work and need regular breaks to re-fresh and constantly take in water. How on earth can a living creature be expected to cope without. 

Good on you OP for standing up and doing something about it.


----------



## Patterdale (26 May 2012)

Hahaha GS - I cant quote on phone, but THAT I would like to see on YouTube!


----------



## Amaranta (26 May 2012)

Shocking, I sincerely hope that more is made of this and that karma catches up with PP and his obnoxious wife


----------



## amandap (26 May 2012)

Yes, good on you Grayson. The evidence of kidney damage at necropsy is undeniable proof of the physical damage withholding water (especially in hot weather) can do.

I suspect these practices are far from new but because they get the desired results for the humans they are carried forward through the generations. 
 The big problem here (apart from the horses in his care suffering this today) is the huge impact this trainer has and how many have followed this example...


----------



## Grayson (26 May 2012)

It is interesting that someone has just emailed me with a transcript from their Parelli Liberty Horse Behaviour DVD, which came out in 2006. Pat Parelli is telling students 'How Horses Learn' and how they appreciate food but making them beg for their water is an even better way to go. 

He states:

"Waters one of the most powerful taming substances on the face of the earth. You can take wild mustang or wild deer and if you control the water , you put the water , lets say there was no water in this pasture, none, but in this pen, you opened up the gate and you were the one, the water master in charge of it, say when you get to come in or not, what the rules are, what you have to pay, it can take very quickly, horses theyre gonna be searching for water. 

Lots of people try to train horses with grain and carrots and food; it dont tame em cos they dont need it. Horses can live for weeks without food. Itll damage them but itll , they can live but they only survive without water for a matter of days. 

And so sometimes water and to build a great relationship with your horse you notice we didnt put any automatic waters in your pens, there are no automatic waters on either one of our facilities, its to help you learn the importance of bringing the water to the horse. 

And if you bring him a full bucket of water when hes already got a half a bucket there you wasted a trip. If you bring it to him when hes putting his lips through the bars going please please (_PP makes sucking noises_), whos ever had a horse wanting to drink through the , put his neck through the bars and drink? 

Well, its not through the bars and drink that you want, its the thank-you, thank-you (_PP in desperate tones_) for bringing me some water. It can be a very very good bonding agent, it helps and it starts right from birth. Who has the liquid for the first month of their life?"​
Personally, this transcript turns my stomach. As I said earlier, it is the sign of someone whose ego overrides the benefit to the horse. There is absolutely no need to do this to establish leadership or to control a horse, as millions of riders  classical, traditional or so-called natural  have proved by establishing leadership whilst considering and preserving the dignity and welfare of the horse.


----------



## Marydoll (26 May 2012)

Wagtail said:





Click to expand...

Oh do please, i'll join you


----------



## amandap (26 May 2012)

Grayson said:



			Personally, this transcript turns my stomach. As I said earlier, it is the sign of someone whose ego overrides the benefit to the horse. There is absolutely no need to do this to establish leadership or to control a horse, as millions of riders  classical, traditional or so-called natural  have proved by establishing leadership whilst considering and preserving the dignity and welfare of the horse.
		
Click to expand...

It is very, very depressing.


----------



## laura_lor (26 May 2012)

Just reading that transcript makes me feel sick, I can't even think of the words to describe what he is suggesting. It's beyond cruel, and I for one would love to see him strung up and punished for his disgusting methods - and for trying to encourage other people to adopt the same approaches with their horses. Horrible man.


----------



## Capriole (26 May 2012)

offs, this makes me so angry, that transcript is full of complete BS   I'll stick to the 'great relationship' I have with my horse where he doesnt have to desperately beg me for anything, thanks PP.


----------



## dafthoss (26 May 2012)

Can we put PP in one of these pens and made him beg for water? 

He really doesnt do him self any favours.


----------



## Marydoll (26 May 2012)

Is the trainer in question definitely him ?
If so, id love a wee outing to pratts ranch to chase him and slap him about the head with my tumshie stick, then mabe tie his leg up and sit him in the sun for a few hours with no water, whoever it is, this is cruelty beyond belief, his horses must hate him


----------



## Capriole (26 May 2012)

No idea if its him in the OP, Marydoll.
But the transcript seems to be, certainly. The more I hear of this PP BS the more it comes across as pure bullying to me. Not anything Id subject one of mine to.


----------



## nixxyz (26 May 2012)

dafthoss said:



			Can we put PP in one of these pens and made him beg for water? 

He really doesnt do him self any favours.
		
Click to expand...

This ^, i would love to see, make him feel the pain that he's inflicting on his poor horses. He really is one of the biggest muppets ive ever seen working with horses.


----------



## Amaranta (26 May 2012)

dafthoss said:



			Can we put PP in one of these pens and made him beg for water? 

He really doesnt do him self any favours.
		
Click to expand...

Only if I am allowed to chase him around with a ***** carrot stick


----------



## Wagtail (26 May 2012)

marydoll said:



			Is the trainer in question definitely him ?
If so, id love a wee outing to pratts ranch to chase him and slap him about the head with my tumshie stick, then mabe tie his leg up and sit him in the sun for a few hours with no water, whoever it is, this is cruelty beyond belief, his horses must hate him
		
Click to expand...

He has a ranch in Colorado, and has allied himself with the humane society, has a massive propaganda machine...


----------



## Grayson (26 May 2012)

My source confirms that it was the Parelli Ranch at Pagosa Springs in Colorado, adding:

This has been happening a long time.....when he moved to Colorado we saw it first hand as we went to "check out" his facility after hearing that things were not as they seemed. He is a control freak and the wellbeing of the horses is low on the list of priorities in his "money machine." His ego and money are at the top of his priority list.​
This information can be revealed because the Colorado Equine Investigation Unit has documented details of the events mentioned. The other statements about control and ego are subjective, but nevertheless could be considered valid in a libel suit: it is the facts that must be proved to be false, for libel to occur. In Colorado, web libel is posting false information about someone that defames them. This report confirms what is already published and taught, calling PP a control&#8211;freak or money-grabber does not defame him, it is a reasonable conclusion to draw from his behaviour, already on animal welfare record.


----------



## dafthoss (26 May 2012)

Amaranta said:



			Only if I am allowed to chase him around with a ***** carrot stick 

Click to expand...

Ok I'll use my signature beating tool of a fence post, you can have the stick thing and who wants a metal clip to hit him round the face with?


----------



## nixxyz (26 May 2012)

dafthoss said:



			Ok I'll use my signature beating tool of a fence post, you can have the stick thing and who wants a metal clip to hit him round the face with?
		
Click to expand...

OOh me lol!!! Al give him a good wallop on the chin with it, see how he likes it


----------



## Marydoll (26 May 2012)

Grayson said:



			My source confirms that it was the Parelli Ranch at Pagosa Springs in Colorado, adding:

This has been happening a long time.....when he moved to Colorado we saw it first hand as we went to "check out" his facility after hearing that things were not as they seemed. He is a control freak and the wellbeing of the horses is low on the list of priorities in his "money machine." His ego and money are at the top of his priority list.​
This information can be revealed because the Colorado Equine Investigation Unit has documented details of the events mentioned. The other statements about control and ego are subjective, but nevertheless could be considered valid in a libel suit: it is the facts that must be proved to be false, for libel to occur. In Colorado, web libel is posting false information about someone that defames them. This report confirms what is already published and taught, calling PP a controlfreak or money-grabber does not defame him, it is a reasonable conclusion to draw from his behaviour, already on animal welfare record.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying, tbh i dont really care who it is, but was curious  as the thread was eluding to it , imo it is the most disgusting cruel thing to do to any animal to deprive it of water, again i really hope karma kicks in big style to whoever " trains" and i use the term loosely in this cruel manner


----------



## Patterdale (26 May 2012)

I'd love to withhold Pat Parellis water until he made sucking noises through the fence, then use my carrot stick on him and clunk him with the leadrope. 

I wonder how good our relationship would be...? 

What a prize pr***.


----------



## Brigadoon (26 May 2012)

Just horrific. My horses are milling back and forward from the troughs today in this sweltering heat. It's too horrible to think you would use water like that. Barbaric.


----------



## Amaranta (26 May 2012)

dafthoss said:



			Ok I'll use my signature beating tool of a fence post, you can have the stick thing and who wants a metal clip to hit him round the face with?
		
Click to expand...


Can I also put a lip strap on him and then hobble him?


----------



## sykokat (26 May 2012)

OFFS!!!! Why would anyone do that??? Unless of course,,,,,,,,,, they are a bullying, dominating d**k head? Oh,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, yeah! Of course! This person is.!!!!!


----------



## Charem (26 May 2012)

Afraid I also know of someone high up in the showing world that turns the automatic waterers off the night before a show. Then again same person was reccomended by another well known show producer to give their horse a large syringe of vodka to keep him calm...


----------



## joeanne (26 May 2012)

Perhaps giving PP TOO much water would be preferable.....like with me stood on his head.

This lunchtime Oliver was literally wallowing in the pond, and grazing off the banks!


----------



## Equilibrium Ireland (26 May 2012)

Here's what infuriates me the most about this method PP practices/talks about. A moron that buys the DVD and thinks it's perfectly acceptable. And now it has me wondering about that whole "road to the horse" stupidity too. Are these young unbroken colts being deprived behind the scenes? 

I have to be honest, I'm gobsmacked and angry. I really thought this to be somewhat "over done" when the post first started. I don't do Parelli nor do I follow too much of what he does. This actually infuriates me. His other facility is in Florida. That's just a horrible hot humid place. How can one use that as acceptable training methods? We only pulled water from horses racing an hour before and on hot days, never. 

So really all in all I am a better horseman than any of these asshats. Or I'm a numpty for not getting my job done quicker by withholding food and water. Can you imagine some idiot that wants to have that magical bond with their horse so they decide the way to do that is without water? 

I'm sorry, this has turned into a rant. But I really am disgusted. 

Terri


----------



## sakaspuds (26 May 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Then clunks him on the nose with a lead rien clip.
		
Click to expand...


gives him a carrot stick to chew on


----------



## ozpoz (26 May 2012)

patterdale said:



			I'd love to withhold Pat Parellis water until he made sucking noises through the fence, then use my carrot stick on him and clunk him with the leadrope. 

I wonder how good our relationship would be...? 

What a prize pr***.
		
Click to expand...


Me too!  That transcript is vile.


----------



## HollyWoozle (26 May 2012)

Argh! What is wrong with the man?!


----------



## JingleTingle (26 May 2012)

Grayson that extract from the 2006 DVD worries me hugely - I am fairly ambivalent about NH methods whoever it is spouting off, but a lot of it merely packages age old wisdom about training and handling horses. 

Having said that I do believe in each to their own - if this expensive package helps some novice and new owners then fair enough....I thought. But having read that extract I now feel very, very uneasy about the whole PP and other NH machines. How is it that all these devotees have never questioned that little gem of advice and this is the first we, outside the 'cult' are only now hearing about this barbaric training method....six years down the line? 

Do they really feel this is Ok because the master has spoken? Does common sense not lead them to question this dubious doctrine? Have they so very little knowledge of basic care of their horses that they are not even aware how damaging this could be? 

Very scary - I wonder how many poor horses and ponies are suffering world wide because of this couple and similar con artists of their ilk in the horse world?


----------



## darkhorse123 (26 May 2012)

read all of this and am absoluteley disgusted! I have this man on fb - I am going to ask him why he does it! 
Its basically torture!
Suppose i will get blocked but if we all did it?


----------



## Hedgewitch13 (26 May 2012)

You have him on FB? I'd remove him if I were you! Well after you have asked him about the water issue. I bet you get jumped on by his dumb followers though. Good luck!


----------



## JingleTingle (26 May 2012)

darkhorse123 said:



			read all of this and am absoluteley disgusted! I have this man on fb - I am going to ask him why he does it! 
Its basically torture!
Suppose i will get blocked but if we all did it?
		
Click to expand...

Feel free to pm me the link to the FB page...if you do get jumped on I will be happy to step in and take over if you get blocked! They are a disgrace!


----------



## JingleTingle (26 May 2012)

In fact, perhaps a nice neat little line standing by to step in as each soldier falls might be a smart way of making outside opinion heard?


----------



## Hedgewitch13 (26 May 2012)

Like!


----------



## Patterdale (26 May 2012)

I think complaints to YourHorse and Horse and Country etc would be useful. This is how he earns a lot of his cash. Hit him where it hurts. 

Urgh I could literally spit on the man.


----------



## amandap (26 May 2012)

patterdale said:



			I think complaints to YourHorse and Horse and Country etc would be useful. This is how he earns a lot of his cash. Hit him where it hurts.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. I think Grayson has done a great job in complaining to them. Let's hope they see how this advice isn't appropriate in a country where witholding basic needs is illegal. The five freedoms are very clear and now in law here.


----------



## Tinypony (26 May 2012)

grumpyoldmare said:



			Having said that I do believe in each to their own - if this expensive package helps some novice and new owners then fair enough....I thought. But having read that extract I now feel very, very uneasy about the whole PP and other NH machines. How is it that all these devotees have never questioned that little gem of advice and this is the first we, outside the 'cult' are only now hearing about this barbaric training method....six years down the line?
		
Click to expand...

Aaargh!  I've never met anyone from another "NH machine" who would advocate this!!  In fact, it's a bit mean to label them all "NH machines" because some are very far from that, and their bank balances are lighter as a result.

I was a Parelli student in oh, probably Victorian times, never heard this witholding water thing until more recently.  If I'd been told to do that I've have told them to go spin.


----------



## Tinypony (26 May 2012)

patterdale said:



			Do u think Linda withholds Pats water to make him more obedient?

'No Pat, I am your leader...'
		
Click to expand...

I would be whiskey by the way, not water.


----------



## Patterdale (26 May 2012)

Not surprising!


----------



## MissMistletoe (26 May 2012)

I remember being told by a friend of a friend who went to a Parelli fun weekend in the Midlands that when they unloaded their horses they were not allowed to water them.

This was in the hot summer and the friend could not understand why she couldnt offer her mare water.

She was told that the horse must see you as the leader who dictates when and where you should drink.

The horses were not offered water all evening, and apparently people were going out to the stables to water their horses and someone told them that the horses were not allowed any until the morning.

Sadistic.


----------



## amandap (26 May 2012)

Tinypony said:



			Aaargh!  I've never met anyone from another "NH machine" who would advocate this!!  In fact, it's a bit mean to label them all "NH machines" because some are very far from that, and their bank balances are lighter as a result.
		
Click to expand...

I second this.

 Also, there are posts on this thread which point to water deprivation being used here/UK as behavioural control. So it is far from just PP using this sort of cruelty to control horses.


----------



## cefyl (26 May 2012)

MissMistletoe said:



			I remember being told by a friend of a friend who went to a Parelli fun weekend in the Midlands that when they unloaded their horses they were not allowed to water them.

This was in the hot summer and the friend could not understand why she couldnt offer her mare water.

She was told that the horse must see you as the leader who dictates when and where you should drink.

The horses were not offered water all evening, and apparently people were going out to the stables to water their horses and someone told them that the horses were not allowed any until the morning.

Sadistic.
		
Click to expand...

And what was the response of the owners?  Did they over ride the Parelli instructions and take care of the welfare of their horses?


----------



## nosenseofdirection (26 May 2012)

I'm really quite shocked at this. Imagine if people tried this on their unruly children- the public outcry would be deafening. All creatures need water. Withholding it is barbaric!


----------



## Goldenstar (26 May 2012)

MissMistletoe said:



			I remember being told by a friend of a friend who went to a Parelli fun weekend in the Midlands that when they unloaded their horses they were not allowed to water them.

This was in the hot summer and the friend could not understand why she couldnt offer her mare water.

She was told that the horse must see you as the leader who dictates when and where you should drink.

The horses were not offered water all evening, and apparently people were going out to the stables to water their horses and someone told them that the horses were not allowed any until the morning.

Sadistic.
		
Click to expand...


more fool them I would have loaded my horse gone home pausing only to call the RSPCA.
That's madness dehydration is so bad for horses and they MUST drink during ( if possible ) or after travelling what is wrong with these people .
You can be your horses leader with out nonsense like that .


----------



## Ibblebibble (26 May 2012)

patterdale said:



			Urgh I could literally spit on the man.
		
Click to expand...

i wouldn't spit on him if he was on fire!!!

I wish i could say i was surprised at these revelations but i'm not, i am always deeply suspicious of any group/cult who hide their methods unless you are paying a princely sum to join them


----------



## Grayson (26 May 2012)

grumpyoldmare said:



			Grayson that extract from the 2006 DVD worries me hugely -  How is it that all these devotees have never questioned that little gem of advice and this is the first we, outside the 'cult' are only now hearing about this barbaric training method....six years down the line?
		
Click to expand...

I questioned Parelli's work from the first  and only  demo that I went to in 2001 and it wasn't even him doing it, it was Neil Pye. I didn't like the way they worked the crowd, I didn't like the "you can do this at level 1 and this at level 4" ethos, I didn't like the fact that it would cost thousands of pounds to get where most of us wanted to go.

I went to a Monty Roberts demo a few months later and got a very different impression: there were no circus tricks to impress. The technique he used was one that you had to learn, but his philosophy of moving a horse's feet, leading at his head, on a long line, and making it stop when you did, was one that I took home with me for the cost of the ticket. 

Where the PP demo made me reluctant to look any further, the MR one, and the conversation I had with him after, as it happened, about killing dogs in Germany because of their breed, restored my interest in ways of working with horses, that I had not considered before.

What I hadn't realised between November 2001 and February 2002, was that PP uses violence to get things done, whereas MR and his students, are opposed to violence of any form, whether towards dogs, horses or people. This then has been my yardstick: if a trainer hits a horse, I won't have anything further to do with his methods. What I didn't realise until that programme last week, was that Pat Parelli breaks animal welfare laws to make himself seem important. That takes violence to horses to a level that I cannot comprehend.

The more I investigated this abuse, the more I discovered that this has, as my informant stated, been going on a long time: from Jul. 17, 2009, Kitari http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=214757&page=7
To the comment about water deprivation, I HAVE seen a parelli person use it as a tactic to get the horse more comfortable with handling since the person supplied its needs for survival.​from December 4th, 2011, Vantage http://www.themuckbucket.com/archive/index.php/t-8871.html?
Went to work at Florida Horse Protection yesterday and was completely blown away - one of the rescues who was "leased" to a Parelli student had to be re-confiscated because the owner (who I'm sure OD's on the koolaid) followed the "Parelli Program Rules" to a tee....which apparently includes WITHHOLDING WATER  so that "the horse will learn to become dependant on it's handler". My WTF(!!) response was shared by many but we had to just smile (grimace) as this area is Parelli mecca (we all took a look at those damn rope halters and were very happy we were just doing body work and not acupuncture! Not the safest thing to be using as a restraint...and no, as a vet, I don't want to be part of your training program, I just want everyone to be safe!) - but not allowing free-choice water in FLORIDA DURING SUMMER???? :banghead:

Nice program eh? For those of you that follow Parelli - I don't me to sound condescending, but PLEASE use common sense - water is one of those things you just don't limit :no: ....personally I think the horse will appreciate you more as a caring individual if it doesn't suffer dehydration.​ 
from 5th Apr 2009, Bay Mare http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2163032#post2163032
Don't like Patience Posts, witholding food and water as a training method, ​



			Do they really feel this is Ok because the master has spoken? Does common sense not lead them to question this dubious doctrine? Have they so very little knowledge of basic care of their horses that they are not even aware how damaging this could be? 
		
Click to expand...

When you've invested so much money and you've had some success, you don't want to admit that the person you trusted duped you and is barbaric, and then there will also be those who suffer from Stockholm Syndrome: the emotional bond between victim and abuser has made the victim seem inadequate and the abuser has shown his power to control. Everyone innocent looses, horses and people; to inflate Pat Parelli's pompous ego and his pocket.


----------



## Molly'sMama (26 May 2012)

UGH,this horrifies me .


Needs you for survival? I don't think it sees you and respects you- your horse sees you as -water pump- thats all. 
Thanks for the offer PP , but I'm happy with my relationship with Molly- I feel safe+comfortable with her and ensure she feels the same with me. 

Can I join y'all hitting him with carrot sticks? How bout we blind him and hit him when he moves?


----------



## JingleTingle (26 May 2012)

Thank you for that reply Grayson - you have confirmed what I have long suspected - if I ever feel the need to consult an NH expert it will be a follower of Mr. Roberts and not the Ps - but that event is highly unlikely to occur at this late stage in my horsey life!


----------



## MissMistletoe (26 May 2012)

cefyl said:



			And what was the response of the owners?  Did they over ride the Parelli instructions and take care of the welfare of their horses?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure, I only heard this through a friend. I don't know these people, but I certainly hope that they did over ride them.



Goldenstar said:



			more fool them I would have loaded my horse gone home pausing only to call the RSPCA.
That's madness dehydration is so bad for horses and they MUST drink during ( if possible ) or after travelling what is wrong with these people .
You can be your horses leader with out nonsense like that .
		
Click to expand...

I agree, I was shocked too that they would deliberately withhold a vital basic need of an animal for the sake of leadership.


----------



## ebonyallen (26 May 2012)

I would take away his food and water and water and see how he liked that


----------



## Tinypony (26 May 2012)

I emailed Parelli when the patience post thing came up, and was assured at the time that they did not condone that approach and wouldn't tell people to use it (words to that effect).  I thought that was on NR but can't find it there.
There's a lot of questionable stff in Parelli, but then I wasn't impressed when I read this either:

"I was driving the mustang, in full flight, over the high desert. . . . I hadnt reckoned on the level of panic caused by the helicopter [overhead]. In retrospect, I should have asked that it follow us only for the first 20 minutes and then back off, so we could have regrouped, read the situation as it developed. 
Instead, the helicopter ran us to death. We covered nearly 100 miles in that first day, the mustang in full gallop for an hour and a half. It was an unforgettable ride. . . .
It was killing, to stay at a full gallop for an hour and a half, and a lot of the time I had to be up out of the saddle to spare the horses back. I was unsure of the ground and one stumble at that speed could have been fatal. . . . I practically ran my first horse, the Cadet, into the ground. He ended up with swollen legs but thankfully wasnt injured. 

And the fences were a horrible worry, as Id predicted  but here the helicopter came into its own, overhauling the mustang and containing him. There were twelve miles between fences, but mustangs dont know barbed wire, they dont see it. . . . 
I made the decision to ride through the night on a horse called Big Red Fox. Big Red Fox was a Thoroughbred, retired . . . . It was a minefield of badger holes, but we didnt fall into any of those. 
Right at daybreak, around 4:30, [Shy Boy] took me on a high-speed chase for 15 miles. It was as harrowing as anything Id ever ridden. There were no cameras, Id been in the saddle for near enough 24 hours non-stop, but I kept on him."


----------



## SO1 (26 May 2012)

Depriving an animal of water is torture. It is completely wrong on so many levels.


----------



## Pale Rider (26 May 2012)

"I was driving the mustang, in full flight, over the high desert. . . . I hadnt reckoned on the level of panic caused by the helicopter [overhead]. In retrospect, I should have asked that it follow us only for the first 20 minutes and then back off, so we could have regrouped, read the situation as it developed. 
Instead, the helicopter ran us to death. We covered nearly 100 miles in that first day, the mustang in full gallop for an hour and a half. It was an unforgettable ride. . . .
It was killing, to stay at a full gallop for an hour and a half, and a lot of the time I had to be up out of the saddle to spare the horses back. I was unsure of the ground and one stumble at that speed could have been fatal. . . . I practically ran my first horse, the Cadet, into the ground. He ended up with swollen legs but thankfully wasnt injured. 

And the fences were a horrible worry, as Id predicted  but here the helicopter came into its own, overhauling the mustang and containing him. There were twelve miles between fences, but mustangs dont know barbed wire, they dont see it. . . . 
I made the decision to ride through the night on a horse called Big Red Fox. Big Red Fox was a Thoroughbred, retired . . . . It was a minefield of badger holes, but we didnt fall into any of those. 
Right at daybreak, around 4:30, [Shy Boy] took me on a high-speed chase for 15 miles. It was as harrowing as anything Id ever ridden. There were no cameras, Id been in the saddle for near enough 24 hours non-stop, but I kept on him." 

I remember reading this Tiny, I thought then and I still think its another figment of his imagination. lol.


----------



## Tnavas (26 May 2012)

While it is not advisable to have a horse with no access to water in the wild a horse may have to travel many miles to get water and may only drink once or twice a day.

What is as bad in my mind is to strip graze a horse in an area smaller than a dressage arena - which I know many people do. Horses like to wander as they graze - they need the exercise, they need the grass - if you are worried about weight gain then stop feeding additional hard feed and hay.

If you want your horse to behave give it the space to let off steam.


----------



## Tinypony (26 May 2012)

Tnavas said:



			While it is not advisable to have a horse with no access to water in the wild a horse may have to travel many miles to get water and may only drink once or twice a day.

What is as bad in my mind is to strip graze a horse in an area smaller than a dressage arena - which I know many people do. Horses like to wander as they graze - they need the exercise, they need the grass - if you are worried about weight gain then stop feeding additional hard feed and hay.

If you want your horse to behave give it the space to let off steam.
		
Click to expand...

Blimey Tnavas, you're about to be taken on a huge tangent.  )
In the UK there are many people who feed horses neither hay nor hard feed and still they battle against the grass.  They aren't worried about weight gain in itself, but laminitis, which is all too common over here.  (Before you ask, I tend to go for a larger area with grass eaten down but not too stressed, because I agree with you on th benefits of exercise).


----------



## amandap (26 May 2012)

Sadly, in my view Grayson your comparison to MR has taken the emphasis onto a who is worst of the big names.  

For me the point is that this is unacceptable by any standards and by anyone, American, UK trainer, owner at home... 

Hopefully this instruction will be removed from UK TV.


----------



## happyhacking:) (26 May 2012)

Tnavas said:



			While it is not advisable to have a horse with no access to water in the wild a horse may have to travel many miles to get water and may only drink once or twice a day.

What is as bad in my mind is to strip graze a horse in an area smaller than a dressage arena - which I know many people do. Horses like to wander as they graze - they need the exercise, they need the grass - if you are worried about weight gain then stop feeding additional hard feed and hay.

If you want your horse to behave give it the space to let off steam.
		
Click to expand...

wtf? not sure how you can come to that conclusion!!!!

Witholding water could kill a horse VERY quickly. Not letting it run around in a huge space will do it no harm 

Horses in the wild will know where water sources are and WILL NOT wander far enough away from them to cause them any problems. They may well only drink once or twice a day but that is their choice!!!!!!!


----------



## katie_southwest (26 May 2012)

Tnavas said:



			While it is not advisable to have a horse with no access to water in the wild a horse may have to travel many miles to get water and may only drink once or twice a day.

What is as bad in my mind is to strip graze a horse in an area smaller than a dressage arena - which I know many people do. Horses like to wander as they graze - they need the exercise, they need the grass - if you are worried about weight gain then stop feeding additional hard feed and hay.

If you want your horse to behave give it the space to let off steam.
		
Click to expand...

I feed my horse no additional hay or hard feed, and she is exercised, and I still struggle to keep her weight down. 
So for the moment, I will stick to my strip grazing thanks, she has ample room to wander as she grazes, or tear around if she wants...complete WITH WATER that she can drink whenever she chooses, not once or twice a day. 
With regards to the thread, I know if someone made me dehydrated and wouldnt give me a drink until THEY wanted to, I sure as hell wouldnt respect them as my leader, Id be p****d off!!!!!


----------



## horsesatemymoney (26 May 2012)

Grayson said:



			It is interesting that someone has just emailed me with a transcript from their Parelli Liberty Horse Behaviour DVD, which came out in 2006. Pat Parelli is telling students 'How Horses Learn' and how they appreciate food but making them beg for their water is an even better way to go. 

He states:

"Waters one of the most powerful taming substances on the face of the earth. You can take wild mustang or wild deer and if you control the water , you put the water , lets say there was no water in this pasture, none, but in this pen, you opened up the gate and you were the one, the water master in charge of it, say when you get to come in or not, what the rules are, what you have to pay, it can take very quickly, horses theyre gonna be searching for water. 

Lots of people try to train horses with grain and carrots and food; it dont tame em cos they dont need it. Horses can live for weeks without food. Itll damage them but itll , they can live but they only survive without water for a matter of days. 

And so sometimes water and to build a great relationship with your horse you notice we didnt put any automatic waters in your pens, there are no automatic waters on either one of our facilities, its to help you learn the importance of bringing the water to the horse. 

And if you bring him a full bucket of water when hes already got a half a bucket there you wasted a trip. If you bring it to him when hes putting his lips through the bars going please please (_PP makes sucking noises_), whos ever had a horse wanting to drink through the , put his neck through the bars and drink? 

Well, its not through the bars and drink that you want, its the thank-you, thank-you (_PP in desperate tones_) for bringing me some water. It can be a very very good bonding agent, it helps and it starts right from birth. Who has the liquid for the first month of their life?"​
Personally, this transcript turns my stomach. As I said earlier, it is the sign of someone whose ego overrides the benefit to the horse. There is absolutely no need to do this to establish leadership or to control a horse, as millions of riders  classical, traditional or so-called natural  have proved by establishing leadership whilst considering and preserving the dignity and welfare of the horse.
		
Click to expand...

Ok, so we put PP in a pen, and stand outside with a bottle of water and pat our sadistically taunt him with it? Is this actually in the DVD, how an earth is that permissable?!


----------



## darkhorse123 (26 May 2012)

I was on his fb friends list - not anymore. And that delete was before i even got chance to post on there (family arrived so only just tried)
I can only think somoene in his camp is watching this post?


----------



## Cuffey (26 May 2012)

Tinypony
I thought Shy Boy was a Monty Roberts story of Taming a Mustang


----------



## horsesatemymoney (26 May 2012)

Quite rightly, if anybody left their horses without water for periods of time, it'd be a welfare issue and action may be taken against them, so how is this practice advocated (DVD transcript) publically and used as a way to make money?!


----------



## Equilibrium Ireland (26 May 2012)

How would they know you from here? Weird. I mean my Facebook isn't Equilibrium Ireland. Strange

Terri


----------



## Marydoll (26 May 2012)

darkhorse123 said:



			I was on his fb friends list - not anymore. And that delete was before i even got chance to post on there (family arrived so only just tried)
I can only think somoene in his camp is watching this post?
		
Click to expand...

If he had a set, he'd come on and try to justify his actions, but sadly for him,he cant deprive us of food and water to push us around and bully into submission ..... More likely to be sent home a gelding with a few fleas in his ear


----------



## Ibblebibble (26 May 2012)

amandap said:



			Sadly, in my view Grayson your comparison to MR has taken the emphasis onto a who is worst of the big names. 

Click to expand...

 same here, to start comparing one name against another just makes it look like you are an MR follower out to discredit PP instead of being genuinely concerned about PP's methods


----------



## darkhorse123 (26 May 2012)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			How would they know you from here? Weird. I mean my Facebook isn't Equilibrium Ireland. Strange

Terri
		
Click to expand...

absolutely no idea but its weird how im not a "friend" anymore so cant post


----------



## Amaranta (26 May 2012)

Tnavas said:



			While it is not advisable to have a horse with no access to water in the wild a horse may have to travel many miles to get water and may only drink once or twice a day.

What is as bad in my mind is to strip graze a horse in an area smaller than a dressage arena - which I know many people do. Horses like to wander as they graze - they need the exercise, they need the grass - if you are worried about weight gain then stop feeding additional hard feed and hay.

If you want your horse to behave give it the space to let off steam.
		
Click to expand...

What??? There is absolutely no comparison - do you not have laminitis in NZ?


----------



## Pale Rider (26 May 2012)

Cuffey said:



			Tinypony
I thought Shy Boy was a Monty Roberts story of Taming a Mustang
		
Click to expand...

It is.


----------



## Equilibrium Ireland (26 May 2012)

Well I'd love to let my fatties that receive no grain graze all day til their hearts content. However, they would most likely end up with lami. So during the day they are in a sacrafice paddock while grazing all night. No different than stabling. Oh wait they can move around. Even gallop around if they so wish. Please do not ever compare with holding water with actually doing something that keeps a horse from being ill. I don't do this for bonding. Silly. 

Darkhorse, very strange! 

Terri


----------



## rubysmum (26 May 2012)

can i ask a stupid quiestion here please
 i can sort of understand [ but cannot agree with] producers and trainers who use dehydration to manage a horse and to "keep it damped down", but there is no attempt there to "be the leader"
surely, if the owner/trainer is using water deprivation in some loony way to emulate the herd leaders' role in taking the herd to drink, it seems [ & i am happy to be correcter here] that they are mis-understanding the role of the lead horse, when I have watched herd leaders in this role, they choose a safe time for the herd to move and yes - they will put herd members in their place & decide who drinks when but i have never seen a herd leader actualy use any form of water deprivation to assert leadership, so, if you deprive a horse of water, surely , it will focus on the water being offered rather than the leadership [ or lack of them] qualities - anyone else arriving with a bucket of water- will they be able to replace themselves as leaders and what happens when you allow the horse free access to water again, does the horse remember that the owner/trainer can withhold water ar any time


----------



## Equilibrium Ireland (26 May 2012)

Should mention my fatties have soaked hay during the day so I don't withhold food. Just less of what they don't need plus being able to move!


----------



## amandap (26 May 2012)

rubysmum said:



			can i ask a stupid quiestion here please
 i can sort of understand [ but cannot agree with] producers and trainers who use dehydration to manage a horse and to "keep it damped down", but there is no attempt there to "be the leader"
		
Click to expand...

 Imo both rationales are 'looney' and cruel. Training by water deprivation doesn't constitute ethical training whether you think it will make you the leader or make you able to lead the horse.

No questions are stupid btw.
Imo both rationales subdue and create a dependence. There are no leadership skills involved.


----------



## GeeGeeboy (26 May 2012)

I knew someone who did this with water and food to 'break' the horse down. He also tied tires onto each side of a difficult mare! Horrible man.


----------



## Renvers (26 May 2012)

What horse is going to see that as the action of a herd leader? - surely horses will just figure out that humans can be sadistic b******s and learn to distrust us more.

Maybe they dream of where PP can stick the carrot...


----------



## Grayson (26 May 2012)

Tinypony said:



			&#8230; There's a lot of questionable stff in Parelli, but then I wasn't impressed when I read this either:

"I was driving the mustang, in full flight, over the high desert. . . . I hadn&#8217;t reckoned on the level of panic caused by the helicopter [overhead]. In retrospect, I should have asked that it follow us only for the first 20 minutes and then back off, so we could have regrouped, read the situation as it developed. &#8230;
Instead, the helicopter ran us to death. &#8230;"
		
Click to expand...

Can you quote me the exact page and paragraphs from Shy Boy. I have spent a couple of hours searching the book and cannot find what you quote. My version is in a different order and in several places uses completely different words. This is what I have in _Shy Boy_, Harper Collins 1999: 

Wherever the quoted text came from the order and content isn't what it in the book. Pale Rider remembers reading it too, perhaps s/he can remember the version of the book it was in. As far as the account posted being a figment of the imagination, it certainly seems that someone other than Monty Roberts made it up. 

The cameras filmed all but the night-time events. I haven't seen the BBC documentary for some years, but remember that the events in the book, seem to correspond well and to be accurately described.

By the way, I wasn't attempting to compare PP and MR, just showing where I first encountered NH type methods and why I rejected one type of training and accepted another. 

Violence is unnecessary and unacceptable, so over ten years I have rejected many trainers who hit horses, use electric collars and now starve or dehydrate them; fortunately I have watched and learned from even more trainers, whose methods are non-violent.


----------



## Tnavas (26 May 2012)

Yes we do have laminitis in NZ! However it doesn't seem to affect the numbers that UK now has. I am from the UK and though I've been in NZ for 25yrs, now am astounded by the number that seem to get Laminitis in the UK, especially the frost induced laminitis.

My belief is that too many people now feed processed feeds - or feeds in general, and give their horse insufficient quality exercise - how many of you can honestly say that you give your horse at least 60 mins steady trotting everyday? 

Laminitis in the UK was in the past generally confined to small native ponies it was rarely ever found in horses unless concussion laminitis or induced from foaling.

My ponies all lived out 24/7 in UK on about 15 acres of grazing - they were never hard fed, did not recive supplements and were never lame or sick. We rode them everyday - except in the winter where they lived on 'Hay on the Stalk' they generally got ridden only at weekends and school holidays in the winter. 

A lot has changed over the past 30 years or so with the introduction of composite feeds which contain many ingresdients that a horse would not normally choose to eat. Soy is known for its affect on the metabolic system of humans - I believe that it also has a big effect on horses which is why we now see so many metabolic problems - we are damaging the pancreas by feeding these foods.

What I was trying to point out is that in the wild horses travel many miles in a circular route that will generally take them to water only daily, they are eating herbage almost continuously so get a lot of water from their food. For those of you who live in the New Forest area you will have noticed certain ponies in different places at the same time each day - they travel.

I've watched my horses for some hours in their paddocks and they travel around grazing, generally moving most of the time. When confined to small areas, they move around less and eat more. All the strip grazing does is hammer your grass!

Consider before electric fencing! - would you not have thought the horses and ponies would be dropping like flies with Laminitis? They didn't - they exercised theselves more.We had little means to restrict grazing - we just worked them more.

While some of you may feel only watering twice daily is awful consider the number of horses in time gone by that were stalled with no ill effects and brought out to drink only every four hours.


----------



## YorksG (27 May 2012)

I had my attention brought to the study by the australian researchers, which looked at the insidence of laminitis in feral australian and New Zealand horses. They travelled long distances in dry areas, to find water and had large numbers of concussion laminitis, in wetter areas (with more grass) they travelled shorter distances and had laminitis, presumably from too much sugar. It seems that equines are just very prone to this illness. However it is my opinion that causing kidney failure by sustained dehydration is the act of a cruel and/or ignorant person and not one who should be listened to at all, in relation to any form of horsemanship.


----------



## Arizahn (27 May 2012)

See, water deprivation wouldn't teach Hippo _anything_ other than how good I am at hiding the bodies of those who would dare to do such a thing to her!

Off to check that my quicklime supplies are sufficient...


----------



## Pale Rider (27 May 2012)

I have to say that this thread is a work of art by Grayson, and I take my hat off too you. If someone suddenly appeared in this forum and made some contentious statements, the cry of 'Troll' would be resounding from the rafters.

Starting off gently with an allegation about a well known Natural Horsemanship trainer, and investigations by animal welfare groups in Colorado, never mentioning Parelli, but allowing the thread participants to put two and two together, masterful. As soon as the mob realize its Parelli whose in for a kicking, the stage is set and we are off on the usual slag fest.

Then it turns out our hero Grayson has been making investigations for some years, armed with some unsubstanciated allegations from an anonymous informant, who has until now been cowed into silence by the mafia like influence of Parelli, Grayson chooses tonight to register on the Horse and Hound forum and unveil this expose. Pat Parelli has been killing horses by 
deliberately withholding water until they die!!!

I expect this thread, load of old *******s that it is, will run and run.

Excellent thread Grayson, enjoyed every twist and turn.


----------



## Tnavas (27 May 2012)

YorksG said:



			I had my attention brought to the study by the australian researchers, which looked at the insidence of laminitis in feral australian and New Zealand horses. They travelled long distances in dry areas, to find water and had large numbers of concussion laminitis, in wetter areas (with more grass) they travelled shorter distances and had laminitis, presumably from too much sugar. It seems that equines are just very prone to this illness. However it is my opinion that causing kidney failure by sustained dehydration is the act of a cruel and/or ignorant person and not one who should be listened to at all, in relation to any form of horsemanship.
		
Click to expand...

The Kaimanawa study was quite a surprise to many that so many horses had bad feet considering that they roam freely. Some of the areas these horses roam in are very lush, we have many 'spring' like flushes of growth throughout the year. 

Interesting too is that dairy grazing and fertiliser cannot be blamed in these cases as the areas they travel are truly wild.


----------



## Alyth (27 May 2012)

I believe most people who have posted on this thread have got the wrong end of the stick!!  It's not about water DEPRIVATION,  more about beeing seen as the "good guy" because you SUPPLY the water......and of course none of you have ever made any mistakes in your horsey careers!!!  Yes, Pat is an egotistical macho guy whose personality I don't like, and yes, he has made mistakes, like catwalk, but to vilify him like most of you do  shows how most of you like to criticise without seeing the good.  The old "throw the baby out with the bathwater" syndrome.....


----------



## Equilibrium Ireland (27 May 2012)

Its not about water deprivation, it's about being seen as the good guy. 

Really? There are people that desperate to bond with their horses they resort to this? Well now it's easy to see why this program works for those who want to become insta horseman. To heck with hard work, understanding, patience, knowledge, and time. That takes too long. FWIW, I'm bringing my horses water 2 or 3 times at the moment. The only problem is they aren't out of water so it's a wasted trip. No I like keeping it fresh and filled. Bad horseperson.

From this thread it's obviously more than PP who believes these methods are an acceptable form of "training". But the majority don't, thankfully. So it's not necessarily the person, it's the method. 

And to grazing. My horses do not live like this year round. Due to the nature of our weather these past 8 weeks it's a bit of prevention rather than a training method. As of yet I've never had to deal with Lami but common sense tells me it's ok to err on the side of caution. But hey if you'd like to compare that to withholding water as a bonding method work away.

Terri


----------



## Kaylum (27 May 2012)

I went to see a clinic many years ago.  It was a 3 or 4 day one at YRC.  The first day I went I was humm there is a lot of submission going on, the second day I  saw it clearly, the third day I didt go as I wasn't enjoying it. 

As for water deprivation I have heard people talk about this in other areas to calm horses down.  

As for grazing I will repeat this, get your field checked to see what your putting into your horse.  Rich grazing is not good for horses as they cannot take it.  Look at how you can make your grazing better and more horse friendly, owners are quite happy to pay for hard feed well have a look at how you can make your grazing better. Rye grass is not good for a start and a lot of paddocks are sowen with this cause it's cheaper.


----------



## Ladyinred (27 May 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			I have to say that this thread is a work of art by Grayson, and I take my hat off too you. If someone suddenly appeared in this forum and made some contentious statements, the cry of 'Troll' would be resounding from the rafters.

Starting off gently with an allegation about a well known Natural Horsemanship trainer, and investigations by animal welfare groups in Colorado, never mentioning Parelli, but allowing the thread participants to put two and two together, masterful. As soon as the mob realize its Parelli whose in for a kicking, the stage is set and we are off on the usual slag fest.

Then it turns out our hero Grayson has been making investigations for some years, armed with some unsubstanciated allegations from an anonymous informant, who has until now been cowed into silence by the mafia like influence of Parelli, Grayson chooses tonight to register on the Horse and Hound forum and unveil this expose. Pat Parelli has been killing horses by 
deliberately withholding water until they die!!!

I expect this thread, load of old *******s that it is, will run and run.

Excellent thread Grayson, enjoyed every twist and turn.
		
Click to expand...


I too have been sitting back with the popcorn. One or two on this thread are already aware that 'Grayson' is a fully-subscribed, badge-wearing, banner-waving Monty fan...........

Does that throw some light on the sudden troll posting??


----------



## Flame_ (27 May 2012)

Tnavas said:



			Yes we do have laminitis in NZ! However it doesn't seem to affect the numbers that UK now has. I am from the UK and though I've been in NZ for 25yrs, now am astounded by the number that seem to get Laminitis in the UK, especially the frost induced laminitis.
		
Click to expand...

TBF a lot of our native ponies have a genetic predisposition to EMS, they also evolved, and are still bred on bare hills and mountains to be brought down to live where all the grass and money are. Livery yards are common nowadays and in order to maintain land stretched to its limits, fertilizer "needs" to be used, which produces lush grass which really isn't good for horses. Also, its quite a new thing that low grade laminitis is even recognized in the UK. It isn't necessarily that we have more laminitics now than we did, just that now we notice subtle laminitis and call it "laminitis" even if the horse isn't rocked back on its heels, sweating with its pedal bones trying to fall through its soles. Is it possible NZ is just behind us in this respect? As to the frost point, I expect this also relates to the quality of grazing being too much for horses.


----------



## Goldenstar (27 May 2012)

Alyth said:



			I believe most people who have posted on this thread have got the wrong end of the stick!!  It's not about water DEPRIVATION,  more about beeing seen as the "good guy" because you SUPPLY the water......and of course none of you have ever made any mistakes in your horsey careers!!!  Yes, Pat is an egotistical macho guy whose personality I don't like, and yes, he has made mistakes, like catwalk, but to vilify him like most of you do  shows how most of you like to criticise without seeing the good.  The old "throw the baby out with the bathwater" syndrome.....
		
Click to expand...

Been seen as the good guy has no validly if what you are doing is just plain wrong.
I don't to want to have anything to do with a " training method" that resorts to such methods.
In the thread a poster said that a friend went to a Fun weekend and they arrived one day and where supposed to withhold water till the next morning there's no excuse for that what ever in any circumstances unless it's medical .
Some fun weekend ,there can be no taking bits out you like of a system that does things like that .


----------



## Equilibrium Ireland (27 May 2012)

In fairness the best type of grazing for horses does not make for a pretty farm. Or present the picture in our heads of a pretty farm. We want perfectly manicured green flush with grass paddocks. Great for cattle, horses not so much. And heaven forbid you take pictures of a horse in good weight and health on sparse grazing. OMG her horses are kept like crap. Show obese horse in a 20 acre field of beautiful lush grass, great horseman! 

Terri


----------



## Grayson (27 May 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			 Then it turns out our hero Grayson has been making investigations for some years, armed with some unsubstanciated allegations from an anonymous informant, who has until now been cowed into silence by the mafia like influence of Parelli, Grayson chooses tonight to register on the Horse and Hound forum and unveil this expose.
		
Click to expand...

Pale Rider has not read what I have written. I have been investigating the Parelli Water Torture for one week.

I had not heard of Pat Parelli until November 2001. I had not heard of his use of water deprivation until last week when Parelli World Class was aired on Horse & Country TV. I then complained to H&C and Ofcom as to show this in UK might be in breach of animal welfare legislation.

A number of people prominent in the horse world suddenly learned of my action and had obviously passed on my concerns to others, one of whom, an equine crimes unit investigator from Colorado, emailed me. Most of the content of the email I have posted here. 

Pale Rider may not think it important that people are made aware of abuse disguised as training, but I do. Where is the best place to ensure that people keep up to date with current concerns in the UK horse world, to me, it's still Horse & Hound. 

I rarely comment on internet fora, but when I do, I have something important to say. Trolls cause problems on the internet by either attempting to cause disruption and argument, or by posting off-topic and emotionally inflammatory comments. Do they usually use their own name? You can't help know that it is me, I am never anonymous and will be stating facts that have caused me concern. If it's gossip and chit-chat and negative comments deriding others, it isn't me. 

I see nothing arguable about depriving horses of water, it is wrong. If you don't like it, don't read it. If you can disprove what I have put than I, more than anyone, would be ecstatic to be told that under no circumstances does Pat Parelli abuse horses.

As for the source of my information, it is their choice to remain anonymous. As the email says, the evidence is on record if the Parelli organisation feel the statements are libellous, but the informant is not concerned about legislative attempts to clear the name, but about threats and influence.

So please, can anyone show that the DVD does not say what is quoted, or that the TV programme didn't say what it did? It would be a relief to me, and to thousands of thirsty horses, whose owners think they are showing them love and leadership. 

If you don't think water deprivation matters, troll me as much as you like; if you do think it matters, make things change. Only we can make the world better for horses, they can't.


----------



## Grayson (27 May 2012)

I'd rather wave a banner for Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling and Ben Hart, whose clinics I have attended. Those who know me, will now think this a little odd. I have been totally critical in the past of both of them, yet I would send them a horse to train without a qualm: I have never seen or heard of them abusing horses. 

I could give you a long list of trainers to whom I wouldn't send my horses because they think hitting is okay. Parelli was down on the hitters' list, but since last week I have moved him from the 'violence through ignorance' category to be the sole occupant of the 'considered and deliberate abuse' one. 

I am sickened that anyone could be so perverted as to find this thread entertaining. How can you make entertainment from horse abuse? Oh  sorry to be so naïve: Parelli can and does.


----------



## Wagtail (27 May 2012)

It is a disgrace that someone who advocates the torturing of animals like PP is allowed to continue making money out of gullible people. Why can nothing be done about it? How does he manage to wriggle out of every misdemeanor and come up smelling of roses? I remember my sister who is an avid follower of Parelli,and I would guess that she must have spent in excess of £20k on it over the years, being in tears over the Catwalk incident, and yet has been persuaded that all is well and continues to follow the machine. It upsets her greatly if I say anything bad about it. Yes, it is like a cult, and followers appear to be brainwashed.


----------



## Ladyinred (27 May 2012)

The content is certainly far from entertaining and I doubt there will be any disagreement on that statement.

However it is entertaining to sit and watch the NH followers come out from the wordwork in support, and the cynic in me wonders if there is any connection between this and the desire to deflect attention from the old but still relevant video of our friend Monty and JFK which has been resurrected both on Facebook and on the IHDG. Sort of bash Parelli and no one will notice the other disgrace in the maelstrom of replies and disgust??


----------



## amandap (27 May 2012)

Ladyinred said:



			The content is certainly far from entertaining and I doubt there will be any disagreement on that statement.

However it is entertaining to sit and watch the NH followers come out from the wordwork in support, and the cynic in me wonders if there is any connection between this and the desire to deflect attention from the old but still relevant video of our friend Monty and JFK which has been resurrected both on Facebook and on the IHDG. Sort of bash Parelli and no one will notice the other disgrace in the maelstrom of replies and disgust??
		
Click to expand...

Your first sentence is somewhat diminished by your agenda.

In the case Grayson has highlighted PP is teaching witholding water until a horse is very thirsty day in day out on UK TV. Do we really want this over shadowed by inter personal philosophy gripes? I for one do not.


----------



## Ladyinred (27 May 2012)

amandap said:



			Your first sentence is somewhat diminished by your agenda.

In the case Grayson has highlighted PP is teaching witholding water until a horse is very thirsty day in day out on UK TV. Do we really want this over shadowed by inter personal philosophy gripes? I for one do not. 

Click to expand...

Fair comment. The water witholding is a terrible issue and needs addressing. Possibly a different user name would have been a plan to avoid battered old cynics like me seeing the worst!


----------



## Grayson (27 May 2012)

Ladyinred said:



			 the cynic in me wonders if there is any connection between this and the desire to deflect attention from the old but still relevant video of our friend Monty and JFK which has been resurrected both on Facebook and on the IHDG. 
		
Click to expand...

I wrote to H&C and started a thread about the Parelli abuse on the IHDG eleven days ago. It gave full details of my objections quoting the relevant Animal Welfare legislation that may have been breached and my full name and where I live in. My wife commented on Facebook about it on May 16 too.

Now the anonymous Ladyinred thinks that the purpose of this thread is solely to deflect attention from the content of a thread on the IHDG, started yesterday, about Monty Roberts doing JoinUp with a Tennessee Walking Horse in 2006. *I started the discussion eleven days ago and the thread about the TWH started yesterday!* 

The reason that I did not post here for ten days, was, as I said, *because I only received the email on Friday*, the day before I started the thread here. The post on the IHDG was to inform people of_ my _actions. The post on here was to inform a wider audience of the _Parelli organisation's_. 

Had I started this thread on the IHDG, then your cynicism might have had some justification; as I posted it here, it has no justification at all. However it does indicate where your priorities lie and they are not with the good of the horse.


----------



## Grayson (27 May 2012)

Whilst researching the TWH post and video that she mentioned, I seem to have cross posted with Ladyinred and she may have revised her priorities, so the sentence above may no longer apply. I am pleased to see that is so. However why should I suddenly start posting anonymously? I will give my name to what I believe is right. 

I don't know who Ladyinred is, nor why she is trying to hide. I respect her wish to remain anonymous, though my personal view is that anonymity will always diminish the power of what you say.


----------



## Amaranta (27 May 2012)

amandap said:



			Your first sentence is somewhat diminished by your agenda.

In the case Grayson has highlighted PP is teaching witholding water until a horse is very thirsty day in day out on UK TV. Do we really want this over shadowed by inter personal philosophy gripes? I for one do not. 

Click to expand...

Well said, ftr I follow neither camp, I am not even NH, and I am totally disgusted (yet again!) with PP, to try to muddy the waters with political jibes is indefensible.  The old attack is the best means of defence tack.


----------



## Amaranta (27 May 2012)

Alyth said:



			I believe most people who have posted on this thread have got the wrong end of the stick!!  It's not about water DEPRIVATION,  more about beeing seen as the "good guy" because you SUPPLY the water......and of course none of you have ever made any mistakes in your horsey careers!!!  Yes, Pat is an egotistical macho guy whose personality I don't like, and yes, he has made mistakes, like catwalk, but to vilify him like most of you do  shows how most of you like to criticise without seeing the good.  The old "throw the baby out with the bathwater" syndrome.....
		
Click to expand...

Wrong end of the stick?  I don't care what the reasoning is, if you have to wait until a horse is begging for water in order to look like a 'good guy' then you are NOT a horseman end of.  What you fail to understand is that because he has put himself in a position of power, his little brainwashed underlings will think this is perfectly OK.  It is not.

PP is being vilified because he has set himself up as a God within his own little world, he has NEVER EVER admitted to making a mistake, the Catwalk incident was not his fault but the fault of the audience who 'did not understand'.

There was never any baby to throw out in this bath water, PP is not a horseman anymore, he may have started off as one, but the money has got in the way, he thinks he knows it all and a good horseman never stops learning.

.


----------



## Ladyinred (27 May 2012)

Grayson said:



			Whilst researching the TWH post and video that she mentioned, I seem to have cross posted with Ladyinred and she may have revised her priorities, so the sentence above may no longer apply. I am pleased to see that is so. However why should I suddenly start posting anonymously? I will give my name to what I believe is right. 

I don't know who Ladyinred is, nor why she is trying to hide. I respect her wish to remain anonymous, though my personal view is that anonymity will always diminish the power of what you say.
		
Click to expand...

Not quite sure why my perceived anonymity seems to present you with such a problem, this is the second mention in two posts! Are we not all strangers to most others here?

However what I would really like to add is that I have also seen a Clinton Anderson programme on H & C TV where he does a similar thing. He worked a young mare very hard in full sun and then tied her up, still tacked, and also still in full sun, with no access to water so she 'could think about things' Whilst I realise this isn't water deprivation on the same scale it still is far from good and also gives less than knowledgeable people the idea that this is the way forward.

Sadly I can't remember where, but one forum ran a similar thread some time ago with the insinuation that PP witheld water. The reply from PP acolytes was the usual refrain of us lesser mortals 'not understanding' If I can find the thread I will message you with a link to it, but think it might have been on a forum no longer with us.


----------



## Natch (27 May 2012)

Wow. 

I have a friend who is an ex-pat in Spain, who says that in some parts of Spain they don't see why horses should need water available 24/7, so they simply take water to them once every couple of days. She is considered "typical soft English" by many of the locals.

There are several countries around the world who believe that giving a horse or donkey water, makes it lazy - I *think* Egypt is one such country (although like everywhere there will be some who do and some who don't).

Witholding water from horses is sadly not new, nor limited to Parelli.

The sad thing is, that I can see that bringing a thirsty horse water would act as positive reinforcement for the horse to want to go to the trainer. I dispute that it makes the horse think of the human as a leader or the boss, or someone that he wants to be with when he is not thirsty. The horse will simply think "Ooh, person, I associate that with relief from thirst. I am thirsty, therefore I will go to the person for relief." Not some undying gratitude for how wonderful a leader that person is. And just because it is (debatably) effective conditioning, does not make it ethical. Using an electric cattle prod is effective. Smacking your child with a bit of wood with a nail in is effective. Torturing terror suspects is effective. *Effective does not necessarily equal ethical.*

The quote saying its no use using carrots or grain... well then what's going on when people train their horses using treat training? It's undeniably effective, and it works on the exact same thing - positive reinforcement. But water for training makes little sense. If half of us took a clicker and a bucket of water, and the other half took a clicker and some carrots, who do you think would have to give up training first? After one or two sips the water trained horse would get bored. It is not effective beyond a mild association.

So its not effective, and its not ethical.

Add to that the undeniable fact that people are training very nicely behaved horses who do not show any sort of fear response, and who can do brilliant work at liberty without much or any equipment, without violence and without depriving their horse of anything, and I can't see how Parelli can justify his methods.

Quite how such a big name promoting his style as "let's all be kind to our horses and build a relationship with them" manages to continue to have any fans beyond this is quite frankly proof to me that some people just don't think for themselves.


----------



## Grayson (27 May 2012)

Ladyinred said:



			Not quite sure why my perceived anonymity seems to present you with such a problem, this is the second mention in two posts! Are we not all strangers to most others here?
		
Click to expand...

I was replying to



Ladyinred said:



			Fair comment. The water witholding is a terrible issue and needs addressing. Possibly a different user name would have been a plan to avoid battered old cynics like me seeing the worst!
		
Click to expand...




Ladyinred said:



			I have also seen a Clinton Anderson programme on H & C TV where he does a similar thing. He worked a young mare very hard in full sun and then tied her up, still tacked, and also still in full sun, with no access to water so she 'could think about things' &#8230;
		
Click to expand...

I too put Clinton Anderson on my rejects list for hitting foals and using electric collars. The good thing about the TV exposure is that you see the worst and can reject it. The worst thing about it is that some see the worst and accept it.


----------



## Tinypony (27 May 2012)

Grayson said:



			Can you quote me the exact page and paragraphs from Shy Boy. I have spent a couple of hours searching the book and cannot find what you quote. My version is in a different order and in several places uses completely different words. This is what I have in _Shy Boy_, Harper Collins 1999: 

Wherever the quoted text came from the order and content isn't what it in the book. Pale Rider remembers reading it too, perhaps s/he can remember the version of the book it was in. As far as the account posted being a figment of the imagination, it certainly seems that someone other than Monty Roberts made it up. 

The cameras filmed all but the night-time events. I haven't seen the BBC documentary for some years, but remember that the events in the book, seem to correspond well and to be accurately described.

By the way, I wasn't attempting to compare PP and MR, just showing where I first encountered NH type methods and why I rejected one type of training and accepted another. 

Violence is unnecessary and unacceptable, so over ten years I have rejected many trainers who hit horses, use electric collars and now starve or dehydrate them; fortunately I have watched and learned from even more trainers, whose methods are non-violent.
		
Click to expand...

I hope you're not suggesting that I made the quote up Grayson.  I was given Shy Boy for Christmas and sold it at a bootfair some time afterwards.  I remember cringing as I read it and struggling to understand then why people thought it was such a wonderful story.  The quote above would have either come from the book, or from Monty's website at the time.  I don't make anything up and I wouldn't have quoted anything unless it was clearly written by Monty.  I've been known to sit with an open book beside me to refer to, particularly if I can think of something that might help someone (for example, Mark Rashid has a lot of good stuff).  Even watching the documentary, even without the dramatic words I quoted, I think the risk to the horses involved in that documentary far outweighed any benefit.  I think the only benefit was to Monty's as it raised his profile just a bit more.

Monty's words do change in different publications of course. there are examples of that in different publications of The Man Who Listens to Horses, which have been documented many times.

But this thread isn't about Monty, and the only reason I brought him up was because, as said earlier, it suddenly seemed to become a thread about promoting one trainer by spreading news of wrongdoing by another.  I'm no Parelli fan, but I'd like to see something a bit more concrete here, not just second hand reporting. These are serious allegations.


----------



## Patterdale (27 May 2012)

Is the transcript not concrete enough?


----------



## Ladyinred (27 May 2012)

Tinypony said:



			I hope you're not suggesting that I made the quote up Grayson.  I was given Shy Boy for Christmas and sold it at a bootfair shortly afterwards.  I remember cringing as I read it and struggling to understand then why people thought it was such a wonderful story.  The quote above would have either come from the book, or from Monty's website at the time.  I don't make anything up and I wouldn't have quoted anything unless it was clearly written by Monty.  Even watching the documentary, even without the dramatic words I quoted, I think the risk to the horses involved in that documentary far outweighed any benefit.  I think the only benefit was to Monty's as it raised his profile just a bit more.

Monty's words do change in different publications of course. there are examples of that in different publications of The Man Who Listens to Horses, which have been documented many times.

But this thread isn't about Monty, and the only reason I brought him up was because, as said earlier, it suddenly seemed to become a thread about promoting one trainer by spreading news of wrongdoing by another.  I'm no Parelli fan, but I'd like to see something a bit more concrete here, not just second hand reporting. These are serious allegations.
		
Click to expand...

And that was also my concern, given the OP. I actually don't think it was so much about promoting Monty as deflecting interest in the resurfacing of another old video on YouTube which seems to have reached the attention of forums and also Facebook.

But, for whatever reason the OP posted this thread he is indubitably correct in that NO horse should have water witheld as a training method. EVER.


----------



## Tinypony (27 May 2012)

patterdale said:



			Is the transcript not concrete enough?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not refering to the transcript from the DVD, I am asking about the allegations that horses died.  ?  Is there proof of this?  Evidence of a failed prosecution?  How do we know it's true?


----------



## amandap (27 May 2012)

patterdale said:



			Is the transcript not concrete enough?
		
Click to expand...

I have been assuming it is. I hope I haven't been naive?  I don't watch H&C etc. so haven't seen any of it on TV.

There isn't any chance of me getting concrete first hand evidence unless I go the PP's ranches.

ps. From Tinypony's post I have misunderstood. I imagine Grayson is confident to put such a serious allegation in the public domain.


----------



## Grayson (27 May 2012)

Tinypony said:



			I hope you're not suggesting that I made the quote up Grayson.  I was given Shy Boy for Christmas and sold it at a bootfair shortly afterwards.   I don't make anything up and I wouldn't have quoted anything unless it was clearly written by Monty.  
I'm no Parelli fan, but I'd like to see something a bit more concrete here, not just second hand reporting. These are serious allegations.
		
Click to expand...

I am stating clearly that you did not get the quote from the book _Shy Boy_. You have now confirmed that you didn't as you no longer own a copy.

So it seems that you took an electronic quote, for which you have no source and which in no way represents Monty's words in _Shy Boy_, and is not supported by the BBC Documentary _Shy Boy_, which that part of the book was based on, and you used it to present an unfavourable impression of the author. That is worse than "making up a quote".

In what way is a transcript for a DVD second-hand reporting? I quoted the source and just as I did with your quote, anyone with the DVD can check and disprove it. Perhaps you would prefer to hear the extract from _Pat Parelli Shows How to Lead a Horse_ instead. Not quite as plain as day, more the nudge-nudge-know-what-I-mean approach, but it's there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MudT3viHABA


----------



## Patterdale (27 May 2012)

Don't do that amandap, you'll leave with your head in a spin and a 20k subscription to the program


----------



## amandap (27 May 2012)

That video clip Grayson put up on leading has been up for discussion recently and I've thought a lots about it. My take (knowing zip about Parelli) is that video infers you aim to get the horse to want to work with you. I don't see he means literally 'make him want water' in that clip. I take that meaning in isolation to other stuff which I have not had sight of.

ps. No chance patterdale, I'm skint. lol


----------



## zaminda (27 May 2012)

Anyone who has ever tried to do anything whilst seriously dehydrated would tell you that water deprivation is wrong. Having heard stories of how they used to break polo ponies in argentina in a similar fashion, and how backward these methods are, how can the 'modern' PP brigade say this is a good thing? I would never leave a horse without access to water, and its my biggest concern at rides to keep horses hydrated. Its not a surprise they don't argue about doing anything, their muscles are probably cramped to hell, and they are struggling to move. Especially if they use the deep sand round pensI have seen.


----------



## Grayson (27 May 2012)

The member of the Colorado Equine Abuse Investigators has already said that they have tried to get robust action taken. It is my informant's choice to be anonymous, it is also up to the Parelli organisation to accuse them of libel, which of course they won't as the evidence has been recorded and the last thing they would want would be for it to come out in a court of law. 

My informant's words, in answer to your questions:
At the time we were deeply involved in the humane world and founded the first national school on Horse Abuse Investigations. For 15 years we worked with animal control officers from all over the county and received a prestigious national award for outstanding work in the field of humane education. with American Humane. I mention this because I want people to know that I am not a "flake." I know horses and I was trained in this field.

We blew the whistle with the Colorado State Vet and everybody we could think of. The Executive Director of the local shelter warned us to be careful because he heard that reprisals from Parelli...actually physical threats had happened in other situations. Because of the way the laws are written and his power there was nothing to be done.

In addition to the two horses that died a border collie had to be euthanized. The dog didn't come when Pat whistled him off some cows. He got a hold of the dog and tied a hind leg under the collar and turned it loose for the rest of the day. He tore his hind leg up so badly he had to be put down and all because of this guys ego. I had the woman who called to tell me about the dog say that no one stood up to Pat and help that dog. Why didn't anyone say, Stop it or I'll turn you in? Over a hundred people witnessed the dog situation.​


----------



## cptrayes (27 May 2012)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			How would they know you from here? Weird. I mean my Facebook isn't Equilibrium Ireland. Strange

Terri
		
Click to expand...

Whatever machine you are on uses the same IP address. They know if they can hack a trace to that, and they probably can.


----------



## Tinypony (27 May 2012)

Grayson said:



			I am stating clearly that you did not get the quote from the book _Shy Boy_. You have now confirmed that you didn't as you no longer own a copy.

So it seems that you took an electronic quote, for which you have no source and which in no way represents Monty's words in _Shy Boy_, and is not supported by the BBC Documentary _Shy Boy_, which that part of the book was based on, and you used it to present an unfavourable impression of the author. That is worse than "making up a quote".

In what way is a transcript for a DVD second-hand reporting? I quoted the source and just as I did with your quote, anyone with the DVD can check and disprove it. Perhaps you would prefer to hear the extract from _Pat Parelli Shows How to Lead a Horse_ instead. Not quite as plain as day, more the nudge-nudge-know-what-I-mean approach, but it's there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MudT3viHABA

Click to expand...

Grayson, I took the "electronic quote" from a post made by myself on New Rider, where I posted as Crystal Fire (thanks for the link).  )  I am pretty certain that at the time I had my copy of Shy Boy propped up by the computer, but it was rather a long time ago to remember.  I'll re-state my opinion - I think Monty's treatment of Shy Boy in that long chase, and the risks he took with Shy Boy's safety and that of the horses he rode was unaccepatable.

Right, I was not querying if what has been described from a DVD can be substantiated - I meant to refer to this:

"Yesterday, I received an email from someone in US involved in investigating equine welfare crimes for twenty years. My informant was at the Colorado farm of the trainer in the H&C programme, and noticed 
"&#8230; the horses were kept in outside pens with no shade. There was no water kept in the pens. The "pen" horses were led by the humans twice a day to drink. [The trainer's] ranch is at high elevation and the sun can be brutal. When I was there the horses were fed hay cubes. Hay cubes + high elevation + no water or shelter = poor management."
The email tells me that two years later on, matters at the trainer's ranch had gone from bad to worse: 
"&#8230; I received a call from a vet who had performed two necropsies on two horses that died that week. They died of renal failure due to water deprivation. There were 30 plus head of horses turned out in a large pasture with no water." 
My informant is clear about the reason for the renal failure: the trainer 
"would whistle, open a gate and let the horses drink for 15 minutes and then they would run the horses out."
There was a 300 gallon water container for the 30 horses*, the dominant horses would get their fill, horses number 29 and 30 died of thirst after two days! The Colorado State Vet was informed and 'investigations' began, but failed to result in prosecution on that occasion. 
"Because of the way the laws are written and [the trainer's] power there was nothing to be done."
The email ended:
"I get a little heated up when I hear these things are still continuing. [The trainer] is nothing short of an egotistical bully. His media market machine is so powerful they crush any criticism. They are tricky, too, as they have allied themselves with the Humane Society of the United States...what a perfect cover. However, I know what I know...and I know that whatever "talent" he may have had as a horseman is sullied and tainted by his cruel ego. It has nothing to do with the love of horses and their wellbeing.

It sickens me. People are stupidly naive following the Pied Piper without "seeing" the reality.
The horses are the innocent victims....they are prisoners of their jailers. At every turn we must be advocates for their wellbeing.

From someone who has witnessed things as above first hand."
My informant wishes as many people as possible to be aware of what is happening but has so far received physical threats and been warned of reprisals from the training organisation. If there is a ground swell of support and any legal case made to deny the allegations, my informant will proudly stand up in court as a witness to the abuse observed."

I'll apologise in advance if this incident and the death of the two horses has been substantiated somewhere in this thread, I had a read and couldn't find it, but might have missed it.

However "effective" the withholding of water might be, there will always be better ways to train a horse.  Anyone who would seek to justify this surely needs their head tested?  Wild horses might have to trek for days to find water, but that doesn't mean that it does them a lot of good, or that the domesticated equine should be artifically put through it.

p.s.  Let's hope there is a libel action, then the truth will out.


----------



## Equilibrium Ireland (27 May 2012)

cptrayes,

Kind of scary, but at the same time, if you have nothing to hide, it's not something you do. Very cultish behaviour alright.

I guess they can see from my address I am not a supporter! 

Terri


----------



## cptrayes (27 May 2012)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			cptrayes,

Kind of scary, but at the same time, if you have nothing to hide, it's not something you do. Very cultish behaviour alright.

I guess they can see from my address I am not a supporter! 

Terri
		
Click to expand...

Me neither. I am not into smacking my horses with a lead rope clip under their chin, driving them away from me because I am too scared of them to have them walk at my shoulder, dehydrating them to force them to do what I want them to do, (all in videos) tying their foreleg to their mouth to allow me to bridle them (done at a public demonstration) etc etc etc . I think the whole Parelli thing stinks and I pity the gullible owners who are desperately seeking leadership and who do not understand the harm those methods could cause


----------



## amandap (27 May 2012)

Tinypony said:



			However "effective" the withholding of water might be, there will always be better ways to train a horse.  Anyone who would seek to justify this surely needs their head tested?  Wild horses might have to trek for days to find water, but that doesn't mean that it does them a lot of good, or that the domesticated equine should be artifically put through it.
		
Click to expand...

This! 

We cannot equate the ability to survive or cope with water not to hand in feral horses with domestic ones. Domestic horses are trapped in stables, fields and paddocks, they can't wander off to find water when they need it. 
We want horses in good or peak condition don't we not dehydrated?


----------



## Natch (27 May 2012)

Tinypony said:



			"Yesterday, I received an email from someone in US involved in investigating equine welfare crimes for twenty years. My informant was at the Colorado farm of the trainer in the H&C programme, and noticed 
" the horses were kept in outside pens with no shade. There was no water kept in the pens. The "pen" horses were led by the humans twice a day to drink. [The trainer's] ranch is at high elevation and the sun can be brutal. When I was there the horses were fed hay cubes. Hay cubes + high elevation + no water or shelter = poor management."
The email tells me that two years later on, matters at the trainer's ranch had gone from bad to worse: 
" I received a call from a vet who had performed two necropsies on two horses that died that week. They died of renal failure due to water deprivation. There were 30 plus head of horses turned out in a large pasture with no water." 
My informant is clear about the reason for the renal failure: the trainer 
"would whistle, open a gate and let the horses drink for 15 minutes and then they would run the horses out."
There was a 300 gallon water container for the 30 horses*, the dominant horses would get their fill, horses number 29 and 30 died of thirst after two days! The Colorado State Vet was informed and 'investigations' began, but failed to result in prosecution on that occasion. 
"Because of the way the laws are written and [the trainer's] power there was nothing to be done."
The email ended:
"I get a little heated up when I hear these things are still continuing. [The trainer] is nothing short of an egotistical bully. His media market machine is so powerful they crush any criticism. They are tricky, too, as they have allied themselves with the Humane Society of the United States...what a perfect cover. However, I know what I know...and I know that whatever "talent" he may have had as a horseman is sullied and tainted by his cruel ego. It has nothing to do with the love of horses and their wellbeing.

It sickens me. People are stupidly naive following the Pied Piper without "seeing" the reality.
The horses are the innocent victims....they are prisoners of their jailers. At every turn we must be advocates for their wellbeing.

From someone who has witnessed things as above first hand."
My informant wishes as many people as possible to be aware of what is happening but has so far received physical threats and been warned of reprisals from the training organisation. If there is a ground swell of support and any legal case made to deny the allegations, my informant will proudly stand up in court as a witness to the abuse observed."
		
Click to expand...

Sorry to quote you tinypony when it wasn't your quote originally, but my concern is that this could have been created by anybody - there appears to be no proof, bar Grayson telling us it is true. I am telling you all now honestly*, that my room mate has scratched my car and is denying it. I want everybody all over the internet to know what a deceitful manipulative car-damager he is, yet 100s of people trust him with their car every week (he is a mechanic). 
What's the difference?

*um, yeah, perhaps not.

Surely it is up to the anonymous person whom the quote originated from to pursue the matter through the police if there have been physical threats, or for a welfare organisation or the vet to pursue an animal cruelty case. I'm not sure how an anonymous quote on the interweb is going to change anything at the premesis where this happened. If the anonymous person remains anonymous, how would the organisation in question raise a libel case? With great difficulty.

What do you actually want from this thread, Grayson?


----------



## Grayson (27 May 2012)

Naturally said:



			 
What do you actually want from this thread, Grayson?
		
Click to expand...

If PP wants to sue me, then that's fine. I can produce the name of the informant who shows the records of visits to premises, reports handed in concerning abuse and witnesses statements that shows what was said is true.

Of course this will never happen. What such bullies never want is to be called to account in a court of law, as would be the case if he had to say there is no evidence of these events taking place, when his DVD alone shows it is highly likely and the Colorado records show that the events occurred.

What do I want? Exactly what I wanted on May 16th, when I wrote to Horse & Country. I dread to think how many people have caused their horses to be thirsty this weekend as they have a wonderful opportunity to try out the new leadership technique shown on the TV programme. 

The fact that anyone could ask what I _want_, shows how desperate is the need. To the normal horsehandlers amongst us, access to water is a horse's basic right. Only the deluded would ask why I thought it necessary to draw wide attention to a person or programme that demands that we should withhold it, everyone else can see that it is cruel.


----------



## Natch (27 May 2012)

Grayson said:



			If PP wants to sue me, then that's fine. I can produce the name of the informant who shows the records of visits to premises, reports handed in concerning abuse and witnesses statements that shows what was said is true.

Of course this will never happen. What such bullies never want is to be called to account in a court of law, as would be the case if he had to say there is no evidence of these events taking place, when his DVD alone shows it is highly likely and the Colorado records show that the events occurred.

What do I want? Exactly what I wanted on May 16th, when I wrote to Horse & Country. I dread to think how many people have caused their horses to be thirsty this weekend as they have a wonderful opportunity to try out the new leadership technique shown on the TV programme. 

The fact that anyone could ask what I _want_, shows how desperate is the need. To the normal horsehandlers amongst us, access to water is a horse's basic right. Only the deluded would ask why I thought it necessary to draw wide attention to a person or programme that demands that we should withhold it, everyone else can see that it is cruel.
		
Click to expand...

I really don't think there was any need for the passive-aggressive name calling, and I would quite like an apology for that please. In no way do I feel that it is acceptable for a horse to be deprived of water for training purposes. I think every other poster has unanimously agreed with you on that.

I don't actually think anybody will get sued, because this is no more nuisance to him than a single fly landing on a horse's skin - he'll just twitch it off and carry on as before. He certainly did with Catwalk, and that was a hugely publicised event.

The purpose of your post has been questioned by other posters too. It could have been a mere rant, a way of spreading awareness of the issue, a hope that it will somehow cause the organisation in question to start legal action, or for legal action to be brought against them, a hope that it will somehow cause people to defect to another trainer's methods, a personal grudge, and no doubt some other possibilities.  I asked (didn't presume), because there may have been a better way to address your concerns depending on your goal.

Your concern for horse welfare is laudable, as is your attempt to publicise the dangers of water deprivation. I am somewhat dubious about whether any horse owners are really stupid enough to follow advice which goes directly against most people in this country's knowledge of basic horse welfare, but then there were certain hardcore Parelli-ites who stuck up for the big cheese when he abused catwalk, so it has happened before. The majority of users on HHO are anti-parelli, some middle of the road and very few are pro. Perhaps posting on some of the milder horse forums (although you may have already done so) would mean your message got to those who might be naieve enough to attempt it?


----------



## JingleTingle (27 May 2012)

_Perhaps posting on some of the milder horse forums (although you may have already done so) would mean your message got to those who might be naieve enough to attempt it? _

I have to say that your confidence in the common sense and lack of gullibility of ALL users of this forum is a perfect example of just how naive some people on here are? 

This may be a very large horse forum, and there may well be some very sensible and knowledgeable members, but there are a huge amount of posters that display their lack of knowledge and vulnerability to the huge media machine of certain trainers  on a daily basis via their posting.

Because H&H isnt perceived as a mild mannered place to be I cant see that as a reason for the OP to not attempt to draw their concerns to  a large and well known horse forum. Why wouldn't they?


----------



## Grayson (27 May 2012)

Naturally said:



			I really don't think there was any need for the passive-aggressive name calling, and I would quite like an apology for that please. 
		
Click to expand...

If you chose to attribute "Only the deluded would ask why I thought it necessary to draw wide attention [to despicable behaviour]" to yourself, then you may have labelled yourself unnecessarily, as you put yourself in the normal-horsehandlers group when you wrote, "In no way do I feel that it is acceptable for a horse to be deprived of water for training purposes."

The rest of your post is a little confusing as I already explained why I chose to start a thread on this forum in post #110. I also clearly stated that I do not_ rant_ but present relevant facts. I could not have hoped to invoke a libel action as I named no-one. So I fail to see how you draw the conclusions that you do about my possible motives for starting this thread. 

Soft and hard horse forums, I didn't expect to find, nor would I know where to look for them. I assumed that if the content of this thread were of interest to others, they would disseminate it further. I had not expected childish bickering, but then I suppose that if I thought I might encounter Parelli supporters, I should have.

As to who is naïve enough to attempt water deprivation, that is impossible to judge, even the most educated can be naïve when it comes to following the advice of those who appear to be experts. In view of that, one should assume _those naïve enough_ will be a large number. It is a sad fact of life that the gullible are in the majority.


----------



## Clodagh (27 May 2012)

I haven't read all the replies so sorry if it has been said but I understand that Monty Roberts withheld water from the mustang he broke for the tv a few years ago. Can't remember the name of the program but I'm sure I heard they kept the horse moving all night so it couldn't drink, eat or rest, and hey presto it was being ridden in 2 days or something.


----------



## Grayson (27 May 2012)

Clodagh said:



			I haven't read all the replies so sorry if it has been said but I understand that Monty Roberts withheld water from the mustang he broke for the tv a few years ago. Can't remember the name of the program but I'm sure I heard they kept the horse moving all night so it couldn't drink, eat or rest, and hey presto it was being ridden in 2 days or something.
		
Click to expand...

I think you need to watch the DVD again then. You will see where he is resting and stopped and where he drinks. You could also read where he mentions these events in his book &#8212; which coincides with the filmed account.

Paragraph 4 of page 156 of _Shy Boy_ is about Shy Boy taking Monty and The Cadet to every single water hole, stream and cattle trough on the route. Monty says, "It reminded me of how good mustangs are at finding water in the wild."

Page 157 recounts Shy Boy moving slowly grazing and drinking throughout the night. Then in para 7 Monty tells us: 
By midnight or so, Shy Boy had filled himself with good grass and seemed to assume a more relaxed and restful attitude. I was happy to oblige and relieve Big Red Fox of my weight. The three of us could rest for fifteen minute stretches.​
Don't forget, he is accompanied all the time by a large BBC film crew.

On page 158, at 4.30 am, with the sun coming up, Shy Boy goes from steady trot to canter in the next two paragraphs then at five a.m. goes back to a steady trot and takes them straight through the base camp as he headed for a water trough. Monty dismounted, broke the ice on the water trough and Big Red Fox drank, they moved back and Shy Boy came to the trough, drank and wandered off to graze.

I don't know where you got your information, but the book says otherwise and of course this is evidenced by the BBC documentary. I have quoted my sources, please let us have yours.


----------



## sv-masterchef (27 May 2012)

well, i for one am glad that Grayson has posted this information. It is up to the idividual reading it to make up there own mind about its validity, but we are all entitled to an opinion.
I have been very dubious about Parelli and his methods for years, it just doesn't seem right. As someone who has had years of experience around all types of horses,his performances do not make pleasant viewing and are akin to circus tricks.
Real horsmanship does not involve cruelty.


----------



## Tinypony (27 May 2012)

Grayson, please understand that there are people here who would leap in and support you.  Complaining about stupid advice on a training DVD or television programme is one thing, but to get behind a protest about horses dying with no action taken is something else.  There are, unbelievably, people out there who would justify this withholding water.  However, horses dying as a result of being denied water, now that's something that maybe people could do something about.


----------



## Tinypony (27 May 2012)

sv-masterchef said:



			well, i for one am glad that Grayson has posted this information. It is up to the idividual reading it to make up there own mind about its validity, but we are all entitled to an opinion.
I have been very dubious about Parelli and his methods for years, it just doesn't seem right. As someone who has had years of experience around all types of horses,his performances do not make pleasant viewing and are akin to circus tricks.
Real horsmanship does not involve cruelty.
		
Click to expand...

You know, I don't think I've read anyone saying they are against what Grayson is doing in any way.  This is a great forum for campaigns because it is so big and has a wide readership.  There are just a couple of us asking if the claims being made by a third party about the horses that died can be proved in any way.  Seems a fair question to me, even if the answer is no. ?


----------



## Grayson (27 May 2012)

Tinypony said:



			 There are just a couple of us asking if the claims being made by a third party about the horses that died can be proved in any way.  Seems a fair question to me, even if the answer is no. ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, the Colorado Equine Abuse investigators have the vet's report on record and my informant has access to them.


----------



## SavingGrace (28 May 2012)

Amaranta said:



			Only if I am allowed to chase him around with a ***** carrot stick 

Click to expand...

I would like to chase him around with more than a carrot stick!


----------



## wilder (28 May 2012)

this will blow over pp will probably release a statement with some rubbish and all his followers will then ooh and ahh and say what a wonderful man he is, pretty much the same as monty and twh he releases a statement spouting his reasons and all his followers forgive him, the only people i have known to withhold water is dodgy dealers when selling a horse that is unsellable otherwise
why do these people follow blindly, question when they think something is wrong then accept anything that is said by the trainer if you are questioning the trainers ethics or morals then usually something is wrong


----------



## Ladyinred (28 May 2012)

wilder said:



			this will blow over pp will probably release a statement with some rubbish and all his followers will then ooh and ahh and say what a wonderful man he is, pretty much the same as monty and twh he releases a statement spouting his reasons and all his followers forgive him, the only people i have known to withhold water is dodgy dealers when selling a horse that is unsellable otherwise
why do these people follow blindly, question when they think something is wrong then accept anything that is said by the trainer if you are questioning the trainers ethics or morals then usually something is wrong
		
Click to expand...

It's the cult mentality. it's a heck of a lot easier to get into a cult than it is to get out of one, especially when the leaders try to guilt trip those who disagree with them. Guilt is a powerful tool especially when it involves something as emotive as our love for the horse.


----------



## Tinypony (28 May 2012)

Grayson said:



			Yes, the Colorado Equine Abuse investigators have the vet's report on record and my informant has access to them.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Grayson.  Is that the Colorado Horse Rescue, the Bureau of Animal Protection or the Colorado Humane Society?  I can't find a specific equine abuse department, but several organisations that deal with animal abuse.  Or it could have been reported to a sherriff.


----------



## diamondrockharvey (28 May 2012)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			Well I'd love to let my fatties that receive no grain graze all day til their hearts content. However, they would most likely end up with lami. So during the day they are in a sacrafice paddock while grazing all night. No different than stabling. Oh wait they can move around. Even gallop around if they so wish. Please do not ever compare with holding water with actually doing something that keeps a horse from being ill. I don't do this for bonding. Silly.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with this, my cob is on a 'piggy pen' in the day (with shelter and water) and then goes back in with the others in the field at night.

The only time I have ever heard of with holding water is when a horse is impossible to catch, as by turning up with their water and waiting for them to come to you and not being a threat, the horse begins to trust you and come to you for a drink twice a day, and they begin to see you as a friend and a safe place. This method is only to be used for extreme cases though where there is no other way of catching the horse safely.


----------



## amandap (28 May 2012)

Confining horses and witholding water (for short periods) on medical reasons is one thing, using witholding water/food for learning/training purposes is another. They are worlds apart imo.


----------



## diamondrockharvey (28 May 2012)

Grayson said:



			using electric collars.
		
Click to expand...

Electric collars??? WTF???


----------



## Hippona (28 May 2012)

Charem said:



			Afraid I also know of someone high up in the showing world that turns the automatic waterers off the night before a show. Then again same person was reccomended by another well known show producer to give their horse a large syringe of vodka to keep him calm...
		
Click to expand...

Now I  know where I've been going wrong....


----------



## Brightbay (28 May 2012)

Electric collars??? WTF???
		
Click to expand...

It's not Parelli that uses these (afaik) but Clinton Anderson, similar in style to Parelli and popular in the US.  He recommends them for curing "windsucking and other vices". Showing a clear misunderstanding of what causes and maintains stereotypies, as well as a clear lack of understanding of how animals learn   It's called the Vice Breaker.


----------



## Marydoll (28 May 2012)

Brightbay said:



			It's not Parelli that uses these (afaik) but Clinton Anderson, similar in style to Parelli and popular in the US.  He recommends them for curing "windsucking and other vices". Showing a clear misunderstanding of what causes and maintains stereotypies, as well as a clear lack of understanding of how animals learn   It's called the Vice Breaker.
		
Click to expand...

Dear god, just when you think youve heard it all. Id love to stick him in the pen with pratt, both in electric collars with no water and run a bar outside for them to watch


----------



## Morgan123 (28 May 2012)

Hi all

Grayson - thanks for this, v interesting and agree definitely good to bring to public attention if as you say it's all verifiable and true. Awful that people think it's ok to do such things.

I do agree with whoever said (Tinypony I think? tinypony usually speaks good sense !) that it's worth posting on other forums too - this is because if your informaiton is true and verifiable, then people who ARE parelli followers and could do with... err fuller information shall we say... are the ones who would particularly benefit from hearing about this sort of thing. Whenever there are parelli debates on here I would say that it ends up wiht about 70 or 80% of H&H members being anti-parelli anyway, so the information you've presented is useful and interesting, but doesn't impact  how they go about training and so on becuase they don't use parelli anyway. If you post on other forums you may find that there is a much higher percentage of people who are potential parelli users or parellites (is that a word?! what is the word for them!?) and therefore you'll make more of a difference to people who might currently be, or might potentially, follow the parelli 'training' programmes. 

I know the bickering is tiring though so eat lots of jelly sweets and things to keep your energy levels up ;-)


----------



## Goldenstar (28 May 2012)

Charem said:



			Afraid I also know of someone high up in the showing world that turns the automatic waterers off the night before a show. Then again same person was reccomended by another well known show producer to give their horse a large syringe of vodka to keep him calm...
		
Click to expand...

Are you sure the vodka was for the horse not the rider or perhaps both but that's bad if they are withholding water before a show poor horses.
Judging by the different affects vodka has on people not sure it would help the horse much ,me I be asleep in the corner of the ring  my Oh would be climbing the sponsors tent.
Why do people do these things what's the point of winning if you do it like that.


----------



## Grayson (28 May 2012)

Tinypony said:



			Thanks Grayson.  Is that the Colorado Horse Rescue, the Bureau of Animal Protection or the Colorado Humane Society?  I can't find a specific equine abuse department, but several organisations that deal with animal abuse.  Or it could have been reported to a sherriff.
		
Click to expand...

Bureau of Animal Protection


----------



## Grayson (28 May 2012)

diamondrockharvey said:



			Electric collars??? WTF???

Click to expand...

http://www.pasturefence.com/vicebreaker.html


----------



## Meowy Catkin (28 May 2012)

Grayson said:



http://www.pasturefence.com/vicebreaker.html

Click to expand...

Awful - and yet the blurb claims that they are humane. 

Electric shock collars are banned in Wales.


----------



## Pedantic (5 September 2020)

Totally disgusted 🤬


----------

