# Copyright enforcement - A new approach



## mikedpe (29 April 2014)

I have tried many things, my images have the words "copying is theft" emblazoned across them a number of times at a level that still makes the image viewable. Just covered the BE event in Bovington and within a couple of hours a rider pm's me that another rider has a complete album of images stolen from the gallery. What I find strange is that all the riders that comment say things like awesome, great picture but nobody says "have you stolen those?"

So the idea that a rider has supported me gave birth to the following idea which I posted on my Facebook page




Thank you to all those riders that are supporting me. I have chased down a number of stolen images, some have been removed and some have been purchased. I have made the decision to start passing on profits received from these recovered images to the Air Ambulance, something that is great to know that it is there for all of us involved in equestrianism in Dorset.
So if you know of others who are not doing the right thing for the Dorset Equestrian Community please let me know.

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The fund for the Air Ambulance currently stands at £30 and as other riders point me towards other miscreants I hope to grow the fund.

Mike


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## TGM (29 April 2014)

I must say I hate seeing copyrighted photos on Facebook but have recently adopted a policy where I refuse to comment or like a photo if it has been stolen - perhaps this is something that others could follow.  Perhaps we could start a Facebook campaign where those concerned by copyright theft could share a status - something along the lines of "I enjoy seeing everyone's photos on Facebook, but I hate to see watermarked photos that have been stolen from photographer's websites.  If you like a photo please buy it and support our professional photographers.  I am now adopting a policy of not commenting on or liking any stolen photographs.  If you support this stance, please like and share."

I'm sure someone can word it more eloquently than me!  I'm afraid I'm too much of a coward to actually accuse someone of theft though!  And I think your idea about donations of reclaimed profits to the Air Ambulance is a good one!


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## *hic* (29 April 2014)

From experience the reason people don't comment is because of the barrage of abuse they get for doing so! Nice idea though, hope it works for you and the Air Ambulance.


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## mikedpe (29 April 2014)

6 dealt with since my first posting on this last week, 3 have removed and 3 coughed up - 4 of those reported by fellow riders which shows me the majority of riders do not like this anymore than we photographers do.

Mike


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## Santa_Claus (29 April 2014)

I now comment with simply a link to a copyright article I wrote for another website. I've even taken to doing so on random ads in groups as I can't believe people have the audacity to advertise their horse with a photo they haven't purchased!!

I will also often tag the relevant photographer in the ad!

It's a great idea Mike and I do hope it gets more riders to report images and in turn educate riders and make some money for the air ambulance


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## jrp204 (29 April 2014)

Hmm, a FB 'friend' has just done this with their sons Bicton pics, they were done by Jayphotos I think. I would like to say something but know I would come across as a miserable ol' cow.


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## spidge (29 April 2014)

Mike welcome to the long hard road of rider re-education.  All efforts applauded, like the approach.  Good luck with your enforcement efforts.  Love the idea of a Facebook campaign TGM, will mull on that when walking the hounds shortly


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## mikedpe (29 April 2014)

jrp204 said:



			Hmm, a FB 'friend' has just done this with their sons Bicton pics, they were done by Jayphotos I think. I would like to say something but know I would come across as a miserable ol' cow.
		
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If you wish to pm me details I will happily pass on to Carol.

Mike


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## spidge (29 April 2014)

a brand new page:   https://www.facebook.com/pages/Riders-and-Pro-Photographers/765231520187653


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## TGM (29 April 2014)

spidge said:



			a brand new page:   https://www.facebook.com/pages/Riders-and-Pro-Photographers/765231520187653

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Great idea!


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## Dry Rot (29 April 2014)

Name and shame?

I had a photograph stolen by someone for use on a web page many years ago. When asked to take it down, I was given two fingers. I found out who his web presence provider was through whois. A German firm. So I phoned them up and told them about the problem. Whois gave several names and telephone numbers. The girl who answered my call said not to call Mr X as he was the managing director, so of course I did! The picture was removed after I had emailed a photo copy of the negative strip -- which tells how long ago that was! I suspect part of a high definition print might also do. A very satisfying outcome and my power was confirmed! Wish I had been there to see the web site owner's face when he saw the picture had disappeared! Copyright theft is simply theft and should not be tolerated.


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## Nugget La Poneh (29 April 2014)

Out of curiosity - is sharing a picture from the source acceptable? 

Just because sometimes I see pictures I'd love to share, but always feel cheeky!


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## Capriole (29 April 2014)

Great idea, and a worthy cause.  I've got a bunch of heavily watermarked photos that were sent gratis for online use when I purchased prints. I never challenge people who use watermarked images as I don't know if they are stolen or were given in the same way my watermarked photos were.


I have been quite surprised though, to go onto a forum and see one of my personal unwatermarked photos posted there, which someone on my FB friends list has taken without permission from a restricted album.  I didn't call her on it though, I just internalised my anger and let it fester in a healthy way :biggrin3: Guess I need to start watermarking my personal happy snaps!


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## *hic* (29 April 2014)

I joined the forum only after being told that one of my watermarked photos was on here with the poster asking if anyone could remove the watermark for her. She then went on to tell me, when I joined and queried it, that it was ok as the photographer had told her she could


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## mikedpe (29 April 2014)

Nugget La Poneh said:



			Out of curiosity - is sharing a picture from the source acceptable? 

Just because sometimes I see pictures I'd love to share, but always feel cheeky!
		
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It really depends on the permission granted by the photographer, whilst many do just take as they want and there are rules for more academic sharing in general the answer is no where you can not find it stated as OK.

Mike


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## Dry Rot (29 April 2014)

If genuine attempts have been made to find the copyright holder and they can't be found, I think it is alright to publish/use the picture BUT, if the owner turns up, the user must be prepared to pay a fee. If the copyright owner took the user to court, I think it is fair to say that is what they would be awarded anyway. The National Union of Journalists publishes acceptable rates which could be taken as a fair guide. But if someone stick up two fingers, so far as I am concerned, that is a red rag to a bull and it is open season!


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## nuttychestnut (29 April 2014)

Maybe photoshop them riding a rhino or something!


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## fidleyspromise (29 April 2014)

I've messaged a few people who have used my watermarked photographs to advertise their horse. I've had apologies and a couple have bought their images. I refuse to get stressed when if they liked it that much, they would buy it and at least it has my name all over it if they are sharing my watermarked version.


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## mikedpe (30 April 2014)

So far on this campaign I have been told "oh I did not realise" - sorry but the message in big letters saying "copying is theft"  is something you do not understand?

Then we have the "well I was going to buy them" - well why didn't you? and the "they did not do it deliberately" - what they ended up on their facebook page without them doing anything? 

Of course the classics "I didn't have any more money" - strangely neither do I because people are stealing images instead of buying them and lastly the "I am not the only one or others do it" - so you know its wrong but if more people do it then it is OK?

To think that this is a problem linked to young riders as some do is totally wrong, one of these comments came from the owner of an equestrian centre. Wonder if I should just turn up and take a horse whenever I want?

Mike


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## khalswitz (30 April 2014)

I do sometimes share the watermarked versions - but only of the ones I have purchased and ordered!! The 5 days wait on photos then loses the immediacy, and I'm not paying double to get a jpeg as well for quick use on social media, so I do share the watermarked ones. I do sometimes also link to the page with photos on if I haven't purchased those shots. 

When I was younger I'd have albums full of watermarked photos - but on growing up I've realised that this, along with illegal music downloads etc is just stealing and now I'd only do it for images I've purchased and am waiting on.

In a way, once I've bought the images, the watermarked versions are advertising the photographer when a scanned copy of a photo/purchase jpeg wouldn't be.


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## mikedpe (30 April 2014)

khalswitz said:



			I do sometimes share the watermarked versions - but only of the ones I have purchased and ordered!! The 5 days wait on photos then loses the immediacy, and I'm not paying double to get a jpeg as well for quick use on social media, so I do share the watermarked ones. I do sometimes also link to the page with photos on if I haven't purchased those shots. 

When I was younger I'd have albums full of watermarked photos - but on growing up I've realised that this, along with illegal music downloads etc is just stealing and now I'd only do it for images I've purchased and am waiting on.

In a way, once I've bought the images, the watermarked versions are advertising the photographer when a scanned copy of a photo/purchase jpeg wouldn't be.
		
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Sorry but that is just wrong, you are not advertising the photographer, you are stealing from them - ordering prints in no way gives you permission to copy anything else and is as much an infringement of copyright as just taking them when not paid for.

You have however given me an idea.

Mike


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## khalswitz (30 April 2014)

mikedpe said:



			Sorry but that is just wrong, you are not advertising the photographer, you are stealing from them - ordering prints in no way gives you permission to copy anything else and is as much an infringement of copyright as just taking them when not paid for.

You have however given me an idea.

Mike
		
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Personally, I wish the option of 'buy a print, get a very low res jpeg for Facebook for an extra £1/2' was an option, as I'd do that. The social media aspect is what motivates me to even buy the prints. 

I really hope my regular photographer doesn't feel as offended as yourself by my sharing, as I respect him a lot and don't want to upset him. I will refrain from doing so again - although I will still link to the website to show images on social media as there is no other viable option.

Also you can;t just say I;ve given you an idea and not tell what it is!!


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## Lolo (30 April 2014)

I do wish more photographers sold low-res images for social media use, with a watermark in the corner saying 'purchased from X Photographer'- several times we'd willing pay £2/3 per image straight off the camera so we could have a set of photos to share. In the interest of honesty, I do still screenshot images because I want a reminder of the whole day, but don't upload them to any social media- they're there for me to look at when the tog takes them down. 

The upshot of not being able to buy many photos due to the lack of digital copies is I have a reasonable camera and take the photos myself.


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## Dizzle (30 April 2014)

Unless it's a teenager I always think it makes you look a bit ***** to have a copy right emblazoned image, unless of course you are posting it whilst you wait for the real image to be delivered!


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## RachelFerd (30 April 2014)

Until photographers figure out that people want to be able to buy LO-RES images suitable for social media use, for prices of £2-£3 per photo, this problem will continue.

There are a few photographers that do - there are huge amounts that don't. Photographers that offer this service, I will always buy 3 or 4 images in lo-res. If they don't, I don't buy anything.

Its easy to point the finger, but if people are 'stealing' images, then try and work out WHY rather than getting righteous and angry!


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## Capriole (30 April 2014)

khalswitz said:



			When I was younger I'd have albums full of watermarked photos - but on growing up I've realised that this, along with illegal music downloads etc is just stealing and now I'd only do it for images I've purchased and am waiting on.

In a way, once I've bought the images, the watermarked versions are advertising the photographer when a scanned copy of a photo/purchase jpeg wouldn't be.
		
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Again, I want to point out that the watermarked images I have ARE NOT stolen  but came from the photographer, legally.  I can only think the photographer left the watermark on for the reason you say, advertising.  These were free low-res ones, that I got when I bought the prints, I wonder if they sell low-res watermark free ones? I never asked, didn't think of it.  I know I'd be irritated if some random accused me of stealing them though.


I would buy so many more photos if there was more opportunity to buy a low res digital image for £2-3.  As it is I don't often buy photo's anymore.


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## Nugget La Poneh (30 April 2014)

Maybe an enterprising person could buy a stock of dongles and for the price of a on-site print, you get all the photos taken of you on the dongle, possibly with a watermark somewhere to say it's been bought and paid for. I would far rather pay for that, than a print.


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## TGM (30 April 2014)

We have plenty of local photographers who have lo res jpgs available at very reasonable prices, but people Still persist in stealing them!


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## mikedpe (30 April 2014)

TGM said:



			We have plenty of local photographers who have lo res jpgs available at very reasonable prices, but people Still persist in stealing them!
		
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This is the issue I have, with early bird discounts a customer can have 5 facebook images for £10, system is automated so they just download after paying and yet still they steal.

Mike


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## mikedpe (30 April 2014)

RachelFerd said:



			Its easy to point the finger, but if people are 'stealing' images, then try and work out WHY rather than getting righteous and angry!
		
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People steal all sorts of things, not because they can not pay, but because it is cheaper to steal them. 

I have spoken to Ferrari and pointed out that at their prices I can not afford to buy so I will be stealing one, do you think other car owners will post on Facebook saying "Awesome" or "Love the stolen from messages on the paintwork"?

They steal because they can and there is only 1 option to stop them stealing which is to stop offering online sales, trust me, in my other line of work we have looked at just about every other way to stop them.

Mike


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## glamourpuss (30 April 2014)

I absolutely agree with RachelFerd. The problem is most photographers just aren't listening to what customers want. There is then a lot of stamping of feet & wailing from them about how they are being stolen.
Most people just want a small, cheap, low res image to share on FB. They don't want to pay a lot for it. That's just fact. 
I do understand about costs/time involved but photographers need a model of business that stops your images being stolen (either by offering what customers want or a successful way of making the proofs unstealable) 
For the record I will pay £10 - 15 per image if it's printed out there at the competition.
If I have to wait for images to go onto a website then if there's an option I will buy a couple of low res images for up  £5 each but unlikely to pay anymore or order anything else. I just post a link to the pictures if I want to share them. 

I have bought a low res image in the past for £4. After 6 months the horse had to be retired so I went back to the photographer & purchased several other large images.


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## dollymix (30 April 2014)

I also think that advertisers should take some responsibility. I work in marketing and wouldn't dream of using a watermarked image.

In relation to selling horses on the likes of H&H, horse deals, horse quest etc, all ads should be moderated, and editors do scan all pages so if any advert features a water marked image, that photo should be removed from the advert. This could be mentioned in the small print if the sales contract when submitting adverts.

I know its difficult for mags selling advertising as they rely on the income they generate, but I do think they also have an ethical responsibility. After all, they wouldn't be happy with people reproducing their magazine/web content.


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## khalswitz (30 April 2014)

mikedpe said:



			This is the issue I have, with early bird discounts a customer can have 5 facebook images for £10, system is automated so they just download after paying and yet still they steal.

Mike
		
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I wish the ones local to me offered this. Instead a JPEG is more expensive than a print


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## mikedpe (30 April 2014)

glamourpuss said:



			I absolutely agree with RachelFerd. The problem is most photographers just aren't listening to what customers want. There is then a lot of stamping of feet & wailing from them about how they are being stolen.
		
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Not liking the price is not an excuse to steal, as a businessman I can set my prices at whatever level I want, as a clever business man I listen to my clients and potential clients. If you are not getting the products/service you want then let the organisers know.



			Most people just want a small, cheap, low res image to share on FB. They don't want to pay a lot for it. That's just fact.
I do understand about costs/time involved but photographers need a model of business that stops your images being stolen (either by offering what customers want or a successful way of making the proofs unstealable)
		
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 The only system to stop stealing is to not post anything to the Internet, I have tested all the others.



			For the record I will pay £10 - 15 per image if it's printed out there at the competition.
If I have to wait for images to go onto a website then if there's an option I will buy a couple of low res images for up  £5 each but unlikely to pay anymore or order anything else. I just post a link to the pictures if I want to share them.
		
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Mike


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## dollymix (30 April 2014)

Also, re cheaper images...

I used to work as an assistant photographer at BE events. I would to get paid the same amount regardless of how many images were sold. Therefore the 'boss' had to factor in the following costs:
Photographers
Trade Stand staff
Runners (retrieving memory cards from around the course at hourly intervals through the day)
The actual trade stand/marquee etc
Stands for trade stand
Marketing materials (flags or display boards outside the stand, business cards, branded envelopes, key rings etc)
Staff uniform
Food for staff through the day
Computers for trade stand
Printing materials
Fuel for getting everyone to event (often over 100 miles away)
Camera equipment

Oh, and not forgetting that they usually have to pay to attend in the first place. 

Being an event photographer is a very expensive business - not many make a lot of money from it, but do it becuase they love it. Selling images at £1-£2 is unfeasiable - you would have to sell hundreds of images before you broke even.

Just my two penneth's worth lol

And I feel your pain as I love to have pro pics if I compete my horse anywhere....however, for FB, if I dont want to pay for the pro pic, I rely on pics taken by friends. After all, I wouldnt walk into a shop and steal a picture frame, so why would I steal the thing to go in to it?


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## glamourpuss (30 April 2014)

Whilst I agree that it is your right to set your prices at whatever you want it is foolhardy to not price yourself competively or offer what customers want.

I have a small business providing invoicing/billing services for private medical services. I initially offered a totally complete package (checking patient details, generating invoices, posting out, following up & ensuring they get paid, chasing up any non payments, providing  & keeping all records of payments) 
However I found that there wasn't much uptake.... In fact a few cheeky beggars copied some of my models to do their own invoices! 
So instead I offered a smaller & cheaper service (basically just creating & sending out the invoices) Now I do a higher volume of work with this...yep I'm sure a few of my invoice templates are in circulation having been 'tweaked' & 'stolen' but I have to accept that some people want something for nothing but by keeping my services efficient & good value, I keep making a living. 
It's business.


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## glamourpuss (30 April 2014)

But at £2 an image you probably would sell 100's! You could just take email addresses & email the low res photo later on that evening/next day.
My business I'm currently offering something cheaper but my volume has significantly increased so I make more money!


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## khalswitz (30 April 2014)

glamourpuss said:



			But at £2 an image you probably would sell 100's! You could just take email addresses & email the low res photo later on that evening/next day.
My business I'm currently offering something cheaper but my volume has significantly increased so I make more money!
		
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Exactly this!! A friend of mine decided to come along to our RC camp and sell the photos - not a pro photographer but a good one. He offered us £5 per high res jpeg, £10 for 3, £20 for 10 or £30 for all photos of that person. Normally, I won;t spend more than maybe £15 - but for a folder of good photos (up to 35 or 40 each) I would happily hand over £30. So did most of the people there! I know its a different market, but its things to consider branching to as alternate ways of bringing in money.

Yes, if they are on the internet, people will steal them - like all music, graphics, movies, ebooks etc. However you have to factor whether those people stealing would have bought anything anyway, or whether you make more sales from having them on the web. Annoying, yes, but is it profitable in general?


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## Twizzel (30 April 2014)

khalswitz said:



			Personally, I wish the option of 'buy a print, get a very low res jpeg for Facebook for an extra £1/2' was an option, as I'd do that. The social media aspect is what motivates me to even buy the prints. 

I really hope my regular photographer doesn't feel as offended as yourself by my sharing, as I respect him a lot and don't want to upset him. I will refrain from doing so again - although I will still link to the website to show images on social media as there is no other viable option.

Also you can;t just say I;ve given you an idea and not tell what it is!!
		
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I think if your regular photographer found out you had the watermarked image on your facebook they would not be impressed, whether you bought it or not. I had people think this was ok too- I know you bought the image, you know you bought the image, but most people viewing your profile don't know you bought it and therefore probably think you haven't paid for it, and thus copying a watermarked image is acceptable, so will do the same. See where I'm coming from? I don't want your 'advertising', most photographers advertise on social media enough that people know who the event photographer was. 

I offer low res images for £4, my watermark has the word 'stolen' in big capital letters across the photos. Since implementing both of these things copyright theft has decreased BUT I know it's not stopped it altogether and I know there are people out there that I haven't caught. If I catch them, their pictures don't go on the internet again from any other event- they must buy on the day. Simples. 

A lot of riders don't realise how much is involved in setting up an event photography business and how time consuming it is. The turning up on the day is the easy bit! That said I do thing event photographers need to wise up and sort out their products/pricing- if the cheapest option you offer on your website is a 9x6 print for £12 plus postage, it's kind of no wonder people will nick photos. Not an excuse, but it doesn't help the situation. Some photographers say that offering low res images decreases sales- I'm sat here with 25 print orders ready to be sent from this weekend's events and last night completed 8 or 9 low res digital orders- so that doesn't ring true either.

Some event photographers don't help themselves by standing on their high horses and moaning about copyright theft, but they don't interact with their customers, don't listen to what they have to say. I'm lucky in that I know a lot of my customers personally as I used to compete, and a lot of my friends are horsey- so am known on the local circuit anyway. Also those event togs who charge £15 for a social media digital image- pricing themselves out of the market.

I won't sell a low res image for £2, they still have to go through the same processing and editing as a print, and you still have to take the time to upload the images to the website. I can sell 3 images for £12 or 6 images for the same price- but my workload will almost be doubled with editing. Same goes for prints- no point making them ridiculously cheap- it then means my team and myself have to work a lot harder than we already do to cover our costs. 

For those that say about pics on a cd or dongle- if we put all your photos on a cd for you to take home this normally means there is no chance of repeat sales, after event sales as you've got all the pictures to do as you please, hence why they are normally expensive.

dollymix makes a good point r.e. outlays, I will add to that list employers and 3rd party liability insurance, mine is currently £325 a year, not cheap and yet another expense. All of our supplies have to be bought up front, a box of media for my printer is just shy of £100, it all adds up.

Those of you moaning about event togs- come and do a week in our shoes! Not just the actual show day, but the days leading up to and following it. I spent Sat and Sun at 3 events last weekend, Monday uploading images from 3 events this weekend, Tues sorting out images for press releases, riding clubs, Wed processing orders, meant to have an evening SJ tonight if the weather bucks its ideas up, Thurs sorting out sales trailer and Wed evening's images, Fri getting things ready for Sat and Sun. And then it all starts again. I love my job and wouldn't have it any other way but I think people seriously underestimate the amount of work that goes into running such a company.


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## khalswitz (30 April 2014)

Twizzel said:



			I think if your regular photographer found out you had the watermarked image on your facebook they would not be impressed, whether you bought it or not. I had people think this was ok too- I know you bought the image, you know you bought the image, but most people viewing your profile don't know you bought it and therefore probably think you haven't paid for it, and thus copying a watermarked image is acceptable, so will do the same. See where I'm coming from? I don't want your 'advertising', most photographers advertise on social media enough that people know who the event photographer was.
		
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Hadn't considered that side of it. Thanks.

I do think a print and low res jpeg together for slightly cheaper than both individually would be a hit though (maybe not £2  but if you've already edited for the print it wouldn't be too much extra work surely?) - I would buy the prints and definitely spend a wee bit extra to get a jpeg for Facebook of it too.


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## Twizzel (30 April 2014)

Yes agreed- I offer a 9x6 print for £12 or the print plus jpeg for £14. Individually the print is £12 and jpeg is £4. Eagle eyed customers of mine will notice that purchased images tend to go online on our facebook page with a discreet watermark in the bottom, obviously if they want the watermark free version they have to pay £4.


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## khalswitz (30 April 2014)

Twizzel said:



			Yes agreed- I offer a 9x6 print for £12 or the print plus jpeg for £14. Individually the print is £12 and jpeg is £4. Eagle eyed customers of mine will notice that purchased images tend to go online on our facebook page with a discreet watermark in the bottom, obviously if they want the watermark free version they have to pay £4.
		
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See, that I would definitely do.

Also very good idea, having a watermarked version taggable for those who have purchased - and it's official too.


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## Capriole (30 April 2014)

Last show I went to, I had 2 horses there for 2 1/2 days, and I ended up buying no photographs at all, though I did mean to go and have a look at them at the stand before I left but I ended up being too busy and forgot. 
A 6x8 print was £20, which I thought was too much really.  £4 for a jpeg would be very acceptable, I'd have bought a few instead of nothing at all.


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## Twizzel (30 April 2014)

Sounds very steep but was it a higher level/championship show? £20 for a pic from a local riding club show or local BS/BD show is steep, but £20 for a pic from a winter finals or championship or premier show like hoys is probably quite reasonable. It's all relative in regards to the cost of attending the show.


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## Capriole (30 April 2014)

Yes, it was, you're right, it was Nationals.  

I will go and see if I can find their website and see what they charge for other shows as a comparison.


eta - No, there seems to be a standard price as I've just gone into what looks like a unaffiliated shows folder and it's the same price.  Good news is it appears the prices have come down all round and it's only £17 for a 6x8 print now.


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## glamourpuss (30 April 2014)

The other thing that photographers need to consider is that most people want their pictures quickly. I think that is another reason why images get stolen.
If an option to get a low res image cheaply & quickly was available before images went on the photographers website it would further cut stealing IMO.
Personally what I would do is have a laptop at the competition. Let riders view the proofs at the comp. For £4 they can then have a low res unedited image emailed to them within 24 hours. 
I then wouldn't upload edited images to my website until a week later. If people wanted to have their proofs to view on the website before this time they would be able to contact me with their rider number....i think once people contact you to see their pictures you will be weeding out the thieves from the genuine enquiries. 
I'm sure there are gaping holes in this but I think it would go a long way in stopping the thefts


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## RachelFerd (30 April 2014)

TBH I would propose a new model altogether, not sure how it would actually work in practice, but hey ho!

Shows pay a certain amount to the photographer (a daily rate) which is factored into the entry fees for the event. Photographer provides lo-res digital images free for everyone to use available online. Can then charge for prints at a normal rate. Could be win-win, since show centres would attract people with the 'free photographs', tog knows he will be paid, and those who want to pay for prints still can.

I do think that the pompous attitude of photographers does not help sometimes!! The many hundreds that seem to expect their customers to pay £20 for a jpeg... seriously????


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## TGM (30 April 2014)

RachelFerd said:



			The many hundreds that seem to expect their customers to pay £20 for a jpeg... seriously????
		
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I agree that not offering a reasonably priced jpg is foolish and poor business sense in this day and age.  But if you don't want to pay the price for an item, you just don't buy it - you don't steal it instead!

Plus many of the photographers round here offer jpgs for £5 and less, and instant downloads, but people still screenprint the images.

I do think part of the solution is to ensure that competitors are aware it is wrong to screenprint the images, which I think is beginning to happen and threads like this help in this process.  But now I think we also need to make stealing images as socially unacceptable as stealing from shops.  In my mind, liking a blatantly stolen photo on Facebook, or complimenting the poster on it, is condoning the theft.  Would you compliment someone on their dress, if you knew they had stolen it?  (Even if they had stolen it from a shop with unreasonably high prices?)


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## Twizzel (30 April 2014)

glamourpuss said:



			The other thing that photographers need to consider is that most people want their pictures quickly. I think that is another reason why images get stolen.
If an option to get a low res image cheaply & quickly was available before images went on the photographers website it would further cut stealing IMO.
Personally what I would do is have a laptop at the competition. Let riders view the proofs at the comp. For £4 they can then have a low res unedited image emailed to them within 24 hours. 
I then wouldn't upload edited images to my website until a week later. If people wanted to have their proofs to view on the website before this time they would be able to contact me with their rider number....i think once people contact you to see their pictures you will be weeding out the thieves from the genuine enquiries. 
I'm sure there are gaping holes in this but I think it would go a long way in stopping the thefts
		
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Printing on the day means you can catch impulse purchases and you want to sell a premium product that people take away, not a digital JPEG. Not everyone can or wants to view on the day so most photographers put pics online within 24hrs of the event whilst it is still fresh in people's minds, so with holding images from the web for so long is crazy as you miss out on a 2nd wave of sales. 

I like the shows pay a flat fee to the photographer but most shows would not pay anywhere near what the photographer would deem as a reasonable amount considering there would be no after sales and staff costs need to come out of it, even for a local show it would be minimum of £500.


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## glamourpuss (30 April 2014)

You could still catch the 2nd wave of sales, if they wish to see their proofs before the end of the week they send you an email. You could put then put these images on your website straight away.
 I think that by having contact with the 'tog it would prevent them stealing the image. Kind of would do away with this 'Who's going to know?' attitude.


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## Twizzel (30 April 2014)

I can see what you mean to an extent, but the other issue to bear in mind is time, once pictures are online we only have to spend time processing orders after the event. To have to sort through photos of riders, "I was on a bay in the 2ft6" along with 20 or 30 other people! Hugely time draining and once I've got photos online from the weekends events I'm then looking towards next weekend and preparing for that. Especially with county or national shows, if you have several hundred people email you to put their pics online it is just not feasible. 

The answer is to educate riders not make it harder to view photos. Sorry if that's not an overly succinct reply, currently stood in a sj ring!


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## mikedpe (30 April 2014)

Twizzel said:



			The answer is to educate riders not make it harder to view photos.
		
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That is the answer and thankfully 95% or more do not need educating.

Mike


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## TGM (30 April 2014)

Speaking as a regular customer of event photographers, I agree.  I want to view photos easily online in a day or two after the event, often don't have time on the competition day.  I wouldn't be comfortable emailing for proofs as would feel under more obligation to buy.


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## spidge (30 April 2014)

As a photographer I find the cynicism of some riders breathtaking.  At the event they will pop in to the sales trailer to look at their pics, sometimes leave without saying a word, sometimes query when the images will be online or maybe even have a pleasant chat about their round etc, where they'll be next, where we will be next.  So they don't buy today because the pics weren't quite right or they bought some last week, last month etc.  Soon as the gallery is online, you find a Flipagram video of all your/their screenprinted watermarked pictures from that event proudly displayed on their social media profile with all their riding chums going oh your amazing, great pics etc.  The one that really makes me spit feathers is when the rider apologises for the poor quality of the watermarked images...  Why are these same riders so often on the regional youth squads etc, very often sponsored to boot.  Shocking behaviour and totally deserving of a hefty invoice in the post for copyright theft.


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## mikedpe (30 April 2014)

I hate the reviewers "oh look at your feet in that one, your hands are too low or your centre of gravity is wrong" no intention of buying, just occupying the sales terminals as if we should be grateful.

Mike


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## tiggs (30 April 2014)

For eventing where start lists and times are readily available, could you just not take photos of anyone who you know has stolen images in the past. When they ask why there are no photos of them, you could explain with hopefully a large crowd listening.


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## mikedpe (30 April 2014)

tiggs said:



			For eventing where start lists and times are readily available, could you just not take photos of anyone who you know has stolen images in the past. When they ask why there are no photos of them, you could explain with hopefully a large crowd listening.
		
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I have at one event turned my back on the competitor and left the ring as they entered. Organisers asked what is happening so I explained. They gave me their full backing.

Mike


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## mikedpe (30 April 2014)

I create images for riders to share and add my website address but no copyright notice or symbol. The images from the gallery that have been stolen can be clearly identified.
What we really need is a standard for images that can be shared i.e. copyright, leave alone and licenced for can be shared on social media.

Mike


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## zaminda (30 April 2014)

I mainly do endurance, and they often send pics with the option to either pay for them, or send them back. I will say a couple of times I have forgotten to do either. Not because I don't want to pay, but because life gets in the way. Thankfully this doesn't happen much anymore!!
I would also say photographers need to make sure they put a label on the back of photos. I would like a replacement for a damaged photo, but there is nothing on the back to say who took it!!
On the low res option, I would have bought all 3 pics of me at a recent (rare for me) XC, if I could have bought low res copies, but non of them were really good enough to print, the best pic they took they managed to lop the bottom off the fence so it looked all wrong, which is a real shame.


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## Mavis007 (30 April 2014)

I also think photographers would make a lot more money by offering low res digital images by email for eg £4 for 1 or £10 for 3   For me to pay £12 for a print it has to be perfect but most aren't, no matter how good the photographer so I don't bother. However for less money I would buy at least 1 image virtually every time. It becomes worth buying the comedy type ones to post you would never pay "proper" money for. I do appreciate all the costs involved and that a small number of photographers do offer this. Sadly none local to me though :-( Overall, I am sure they would make much more money doing this. 
As a matter of interest, I feel that if I have paid for a print, I am able to scan it and post in on FB, I presume this is true?


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## mikedpe (30 April 2014)

Mavis007 said:



			As a matter of interest, I feel that if I have paid for a print, I am able to scan it and post in on FB, I presume this is true?
		
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Copyright means the right to copy, when you purchase a print there is no transfer of copyright and hence NO you are not allowed to do that, it would be a copyright infringement.

Mike


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## TGM (30 April 2014)

mikedpe said:



			Copyright means the right to copy, when you purchase a print there is no transfer of copyright and hence NO you are not allowed to do that, it would be a copyright infringement.

Mike
		
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However you will often find if you ask the photographer they will give you permission to do so, in my experience anyway.


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## Mavis007 (30 April 2014)

Mike, I presume you mean you personally disagree with people posting a scanned image they have actually bought onto their personal social media site? I can totally understand that such an image shouldn't be used for advertising etc  but surely for personal social media it should be acceptable if that image is bought and paid for. In spirit at least. I totally agree about not posting "stolen" images that have not been paid for at all.


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## Twizzel (30 April 2014)

Mavis007 said:



			I also think photographers would make a lot more money by offering low res digital images by email for eg £4 for 1 or £10 for 3   For me to pay £12 for a print it has to be perfect but most aren't, no matter how good the photographer so I don't bother. However for less money I would buy at least 1 image virtually every time. It becomes worth buying the comedy type ones to post you would never pay "proper" money for. I do appreciate all the costs involved and that a small number of photographers do offer this. Sadly none local to me though :-( Overall, I am sure they would make much more money doing this. 
As a matter of interest, I feel that if I have paid for a print, I am able to scan it and post in on FB, I presume this is true?
		
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I am quite happy for people to scan it in for personal use even though as mike says you do not own the copyright, I am happy for a customer to scan in a purchased print


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## mikedpe (30 April 2014)

Mavis007 said:



			Mike, I presume you mean you personally disagree with people posting a scanned image they have actually bought onto their personal social media site? I can totally understand that such an image shouldn't be used for advertising etc  but surely for personal social media it should be acceptable if that image is bought and paid for. In spirit at least. I totally agree about not posting "stolen" images that have not been paid for at all.
		
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No, I mean the laws of UK, Europe etc. all make it an offence to do that, as in a photographer can take civil recovery action if somebody does that with one of their images. Recent court cases show that the courts support the photographers rights in this matter with ignorance being no defence.

Personally I am against people doing this and for my images there is no justification in doing it as I provide a free image sized for social media free of charge which they can share.

Mike


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## Santa_Claus (30 April 2014)

Mavis007 said:



			Mike, I presume you mean you personally disagree with people posting a scanned image they have actually bought onto their personal social media site? I can totally understand that such an image shouldn't be used for advertising etc  but surely for personal social media it should be acceptable if that image is bought and paid for. In spirit at least. I totally agree about not posting "stolen" images that have not been paid for at all.
		
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No Mike is quoting the law. it is ILLEGAL to scan a photo and repost online. Very few photographers will have issue if you paid for the original but they would be within their rights to charge you for making the copy.

This article explains fully

http://e-venting.co.uk/2013/02/photography-copyright-explained/


Personally I have also turned my backs on competitors. There is one who hadn't stolen my images but another photographer's. Granted the cheapest image from that photographer is £17ish and they don't allow social media sharing and a low res image is £15 BUT if you don't like that then you don't post. I politely pulled them up on the fact they hadn't paid and was met with a barrage of abuse and weak excuses which were laughable. the result? I now refuse to take any photos of her at any event and if I accidentally they are deleted. I also deleted all previous photos I had taken of her. I never wish to bite off my nose to spite my face loosing sales but given her attitude I knew she was never going to buy any anyway!


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## Mavis007 (30 April 2014)

That's great that you provide the digital image free of charge when people buy your photo Mike. To me, this means that you do actually agree that it is right that people should be able to post the image if they have bought it. Good for you to provide a method by which people can legally do this. If only everyone did the same and no-one shared images they hadn't paid for, it would be fair for everyone


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## mikedpe (30 April 2014)

Mavis007 said:



			To me, this means that you do actually agree that it is right that people should be able to post the image if they have bought it.
		
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Not really a case of me agreeing, more of listening to what my customers would like, or better said how they would like to use their images. I also try to put myself in the customers position, after all the more happy customers I can recruit the happier I am.

There have been huge changes since I started out in photography, in what we can do, what the customers can do and what customers want so any photographer that does not try to keep up to date will lose out, however that gives no justification for others to infringe their copyright but maybe they could be educated.

Mike


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## Holidays_are_coming (30 April 2014)

With most Photographers now doing low res FB pics, there really is no reason not to steal pictures. I have just started out with my new boy so the jumps as tiny so its not a pic on my wall photo but if there is a nice pic or 2 I will buy some low res images, as its lovely to have a record of our comps together, Ill pay up to £5 for a image and I have even brought bloopers before as they were highly amusing!!! I hate seeing watermarked images its not fair on the photographers,


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## spookypony (30 April 2014)

What makes me most likely to buy is if there are low-res jpegs, available very quickly after an event. I'm far more likely to buy an image if I can have it within 24h of the event, because I'd like to use it in my forum/social media posts. I rarely have company along, so tend to rely on official photos. I'm only likely to buy a print if the event was especially important to me, and/or the photo is spectacular. But if social-media-appropriate pics are priced at, say, 5 quid or less, I'm likely to buy several. I think the giant "STOLEN" watermark is probably one of the better deterrents out there!


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## RunToEarth (30 April 2014)

I have my local photographer on FB - when I buy a print he will upload the jpeg and tag me in it - he is wonderful and has done me some good deals in the past. In return I tag him in copyrighted photos which appear on my feed. I hang my head in shame that a few years ago I did use copyrighted photos on FB - it was when the concept was relatively new and I was a teenager - a lot of younger teens are quite internet savvy, lacking in a debit card and unsupervised which is a perfect mix for copyright theft.


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## mikedpe (30 April 2014)

spookypony said:



			I think the giant "STOLEN" watermark is probably one of the better deterrents out there!
		
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Trust me after dealing with half a dozen this week it amazed me that the people commenting on those stolen images never mentioned it once.

Mike


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## dollymix (1 May 2014)

I am amazed by some people's views.
Whilst I agree that its important for businesses to listen to their customers, and set realistic prices, they are setting them based on their outgoings in order to make a profit from sitting in the field all day.

This may the photographers full time job, and therefore they need to MAKE money. How would you like it if your boss came along and said, "our customers are complaining about how much we charge so we are lowering your wage to cut the price?"

Other photographers give up their wkends after working FT. Often sitting in one place all day, in the rain, with barely ten mind to run to the loo between classes. But I suppose they don't deserve to earn a wage?!

Copying images is stealing!!!!! 
You wouldn't walk into Top Shop, look at a skirt, say 'oh it's too expensive', then hide it in your bag and walk out!!! So why is taking an image acceptable? 

I find the ethics fairly obvious!


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## spidge (1 May 2014)

Five years ago I started a thread on here which some of the veterans will remember:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...hoplifters-Rant-follows&highlight=shoplifters

It ran to 44 pages of response, with 434 comments with 32330 viewings.


Have we moved on, has the landscape changed in that time, are we as photographers witnessing less theft?

I learnt a huge amount from the feedback on that and several other relevant threads- In the 5 years since I have completely adapted my business workflow and products both onsite and online to what I heard was wanted by the riding community we photograph. Had I not done so my business may well have failed.  It's good to talk but often better to listen.

Have we as photographers won the war?  No and probably never will but we do win battles and have succeeded in many ways so I see a lot of positives in that. 

I get emails and PM's daily from other photographers and customers flagging up riders with screenprinted watermarked images of ours. The common refrain I keep hearing is that everyone is seeing less watermarked images on social media ESPECIALLY  from those photographers who provide a comprehensive and affordable jpeg option alongside the traditional print options.


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## vic07 (1 May 2014)

Ouch at some of the anger on this thread. Maybe a few points slightly away from the copyright argument. 

I hardly ever buy pictures, it's an additional expense on an expensive day, combined with the fact my clever boyfriend can take an equivalent quality picture. 

I also always used to store all photos (in the paper age - when dinosaurs still roamed the world) til the end of the year and then purchase the best one or two -  something that's difficult to do with digital images. Maybe a 'store your favourites box' on photographers' website would help this one?

Also there is a problem with what to do with the images - prints = I only have so many walls in my house, digital = I forget they are there and never look at them again!

Photographers also need to be realistic in their business model, they cannot expect that every competitor will make a purchase. No business should expect an 100% strike rate. I also find it worrying that photographers resent people looking at their images and then not buying. It's called business - people don't have to buy! If the product is good enough at the right price, purchases will happen!


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## mikedpe (1 May 2014)

vic07 said:



			Ouch at some of the anger on this thread. Maybe a few points slightly away from the copyright argument. 
Maybe a 'store your favourites box' on photographers' website would help this one?
		
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A standard feature in many photographers galleries including mine




			Photographers also need to be realistic in their business model, they cannot expect that every competitor will make a purchase. No business should expect an 100% strike rate. I also find it worrying that photographers resent people looking at their images and then not buying. It's called business - people don't have to buy! If the product is good enough at the right price, purchases will happen!
		
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People can look as much as they want, none of us expect 100% sales but we do expect the stuff being shared to have been paid for i.e. 100% payment for all use.

Mike


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## jrp204 (1 May 2014)

I doubt any photographer expects every competitor to make a purchase and not sure they would mind people looking through their images that they may then buy, or not. But I think it is totally fair enough that they would mind when people post stolen images.


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## vic07 (1 May 2014)

Quoted 

"I hate the reviewers "oh look at your feet in that one, your hands are too low or your centre of gravity is wrong" no intention of buying, just occupying the sales terminals as if we should be grateful."

Er... That's not what you said previously!


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## mikedpe (1 May 2014)

vic07 said:



			Quoted 

"I hate the reviewers "oh look at your feet in that one, your hands are too low or your centre of gravity is wrong" no intention of buying, just occupying the sales terminals as if we should be grateful."

Er... That's not what you said previously!
		
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I have absolutely no issue with those looking with an intent to buy but who may not find something they like, I do have issue with those that use us as a review service that had no intent to purchase on site as facilities are limited.

Mike


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## vic07 (1 May 2014)

But you have no idea if those people would buy if their position was perfect! I'm sorry I don't usually get involved but your attitude really touched a nerve. I will now feel reluctant to even have a look at pictures....


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## peter121 (1 May 2014)

Im a Photographer.I never used to watermark my pics until i found many of them posted on Facebook and even used for commercial purposes.Now i watermark,resize (large res photos)and add exif data to my pictures in bulk using this software called Mass Watermark before i put them anywhere in the web. Take a look at this video 

[video=youtube;TKviwY-4tBY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKviwY-4tBY[/video]

After watermarking i find that theft has reduced significantly


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## mikedpe (1 May 2014)

vic07 said:



			But you have no idea if those people would buy if their position was perfect! I'm sorry I don't usually get involved but your attitude really touched a nerve. I will now feel reluctant to even have a look at pictures....
		
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In the car trade they call it tyre kickers.

Worst category are those that come to look to see if there is anything worth logging on to the gallery to steal.

I often go into shops when I want to buy and look at what they have, I will also go and see if there is something new so I understand that people want to look, but there are definitely some who use us as a free review service.

What I must do though is say thanks to the riders that are letting me know about the thieves which is what this thread started about.

Mike


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## meardsall_millie (1 May 2014)

mikedpe said:



			In the car trade they call it tyre kickers.

Worst category are those that come to look to see if there is anything worth logging on to the gallery to steal.

I often go into shops when I want to buy and look at what they have, I will also go and see if there is something new so I understand that people want to look, but there are definitely some who use us as a free review service.

What I must do though is say thanks to the riders that are letting me know about the thieves which is what this thread started about.

Mike
		
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I'll be honest, you're not representing yourself and your fellow photographers well here!

I agree with vic07, if that's the general attitude then I won't bother even looking in the future. 

Wouldn't it be a shame if all competitors took the same view?!


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## dollymix (1 May 2014)

The worst behaviour I have witnessed is riders getting their un-watermarked image up on screen in the trade tent (the guy I used to work for loads them up every hour un-water marked at an event so they can be viewed quickly by riders before they go home) and then trying to take a photo of it on their mobile phones!!! They are kicked out quick smart. Appalling behaviour.


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## Twizzel (1 May 2014)

dollymix said:



			The worst behaviour I have witnessed is riders getting their un-watermarked image up on screen in the trade tent (the guy I used to work for loads them up every hour un-water marked at an event so they can be viewed quickly by riders before they go home) and then trying to take a photo of it on their mobile phones!!! They are kicked out quick smart. Appalling behaviour.
		
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My mum runs my sales trailer, she is a very patient kind lady but low behold anyone who does this (and she's caught a few people) they are promptly (and politely) told to delete said pictures and remove themselves from the trailer! 

Best thing was at a show a couple of weeks ago a girl asked to plug her ipad into my viewing laptop and put her photos on there so she could show her mother back in the lorry...


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## mikedpe (1 May 2014)

meardsall_millie said:



			I'll be honest, you're not representing yourself and your fellow photographers well here!

I agree with vic07, if that's the general attitude then I won't bother even looking in the future. 

Wouldn't it be a shame if all competitors took the same view?!
		
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I do not know how you do think I should feel about this.  I think you are reading things in to it that are not there.

What I am saying here are things that are constantly repeated in photographers forums and photographers facebook groups. We are constantly looking at how we can provide a better service, in particular for the 99% of riders that treat us with respect. We are only chasing the 1%.

Look at somebody like Tescos, they do not close the shop because of shoplifters but they do put up big signs letting everybody know that shoplifters will be prosecuted. Do I feel insulted when I shop there? No, has it stopped me shopping there, of course not.

By letting people know the issues there may be suggestions that you have that can stop or reduce these issues. I have heard more than one rider politely suggest that if others have no intent on purchasing perhaps they could let those that do use the equipment.

An answer might be more equipment but at £1000 a viewing terminal and knowing that if they are not all being observed by sales that there are those that will photograph the screen we then have a space issue.

So if you are part of the 99% you have no reason to be upset and maybe you can help us tackle the 1% which in the long run will help you get a better service.

Mike


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## meardsall_millie (1 May 2014)

mikedpe said:



			I do not know how you do think I should feel about this.  I think you are reading things in to it that are not there.

What I am saying here are things that are constantly repeated in photographers forums and photographers facebook groups. We are constantly looking at how we can provide a better service, in particular for the 99% of riders that treat us with respect. We are only chasing the 1%.

Look at somebody like Tescos, they do not close the shop because of shoplifters but they do put up big signs letting everybody know that shoplifters will be prosecuted. Do I feel insulted when I shop there? No, has it stopped me shopping there, of course not.

By letting people know the issues there may be suggestions that you have that can stop or reduce these issues. I have heard more than one rider politely suggest that if others have no intent on purchasing perhaps they could let those that do use the equipment.

An answer might be more equipment but at £1000 a viewing terminal and knowing that if they are not all being observed by sales that there are those that will photograph the screen we then have a space issue.

So if you are part of the 99% you have no reason to be upset and maybe you can help us tackle the 1% which in the long run will help you get a better service.

Mike
		
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Firstly, let me make it absolutely clear that I whole heartedly agree with your original post about trying to stop people stealing your images.  

However, as background, this forum gets a steady stream of photographers with something of a 'woe is me' attitude, trying to justify high prices because they have to buy expensive equipment, pay people, stand in the rain all day, etc, etc.  Well, quite - but every business has overheads and if they're not making money then clearly their business model is wrong (see Spidge's excellent post a couple of pages ago) or, maybe, they're in the wrong game.  Please remember also that the competitors have put blood, sweat, tears - and a heck of a lot of money - into being at that event too, and maybe the difference between £12 for a print and £15 for a print is just too much for them to pay, and that's why they don't purchase (and no - that doesn't mean they should go home and steal the image instead). 

It's also about marketing.  With respect, you've made a number of fairly sweeping statements about competitors (even if you come back and say you were directing them at the 'bad' competitors, not everyone will have read it that way).  I guess if you wish to say those things in private, or even on a photographers forum, then great but might I suggest that coming onto a forum aimed at competitors is probably not the way to get us all on your side!  I'm sure there's someone on here who knows exactly who you are or it probably wouldn't take a computer whizz to find out if someone really wanted to - it's not going to help your business if the next set of competitors are sitting at your stand wondering if they're being watched like hawks because they're not trusted, or are being sl*gged off behind the scenes! 

In my professional life I have to be really careful about what I say, to whom and when.  My work spills over into my private life too, sometimes I'd love to stick a comment on facebook but I have to sit on my hands because I know it could affect my professional reputation.  Only the other day, I made a comment on a friends horse-related post but, because of the direction I'm going in my 'horsey-life', I decided it was inappropriate and I went back and edited it.

So I do understand and I do empathise, it must be really frustrating but some of the comments on here (from many people not directed solely at you) are hitting a few nerves for me (and others too, it would seem).


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## RunToEarth (1 May 2014)

Twizzel said:



			Best thing was at a show a couple of weeks ago a girl asked to plug her ipad into my viewing laptop and put her photos on there so she could show her mother back in the lorry...
		
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Ha - that is a corker! Thing is (knowing nothing about photographing events) I know how taxing it can be to sit by the same fence for hours on end as I have done my fair share of fence judging - and that is my measure of photographers - sitting in that spot, for hours on end, to create something magical of me and my horses that I can buy and put on my wall and look at forever. And sat here now I have a lot of very good moments caught forever, moments I wouldn't have if it weren't for photographers.


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## Twizzel (1 May 2014)

meardsall_millie said:



			However, as background, this forum gets a steady stream of photographers with something of a 'woe is me' attitude, trying to justify high prices because they have to buy expensive equipment, pay people, stand in the rain all day, etc, etc.  Well, quite - but every business has overheads and if they're not making money then clearly their business model is wrong (see Spidge's excellent post a couple of pages ago) or, maybe, they're in the wrong game.  Please remember also that the competitors have put blood, sweat, tears - and a heck of a lot of money - into being at that event too, and maybe the difference between £12 for a print and £15 for a print is just too much for them to pay, and that's why they don't purchase (and no - that doesn't mean they should go home and steal the image instead).
		
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Please also remember that a lot of competitors are amateur and not competing as part of a business so you are comparing 2 different things. It is their choice to compete for a purely leisure or hobbyist reason. One thing that really bugs me is a lot of people especially on this forum moan about our pricing and how they are competing on a budget, however how many of you visit the catering van at an event and quite happily spent £5 on a burger or £2 on a cup of coffee? If you are really on a budget you take a packed lunch. I had a lady try and barter with me a couple of weeks ago because she's spent most of her money on some chips from the burger van next door, so could she have a discounted print- I said no, she could buy them online instead. She didn't go to the burger van and ask for discounted chips so she could buy a photo- some people just need to get their priorities right! 

I certainly don't moan about being an event photographer- it's my choice and my decision to stand out there (and make all of my photographers stand in the pouring rain all day). However I will have a bloody good moan if I have stood in the rain all day and then come home to find watermarked images on facebook. Luckily down here I have a very loyal customer base and a hugely popular facebook page, being in Cornwall the equestrian community is very close knit and we have some fantastic customers but I am constantly trying to educate those minority riders who do not appreciate what we do.


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## meardsall_millie (1 May 2014)

Twizzel said:



			Please also remember that a lot of competitors are amateur and not competing as part of a business so you are comparing 2 different things. It is their choice to compete for a purely leisure or hobbyist reason. One thing that really bugs me is a lot of people especially on this forum moan about our pricing and how they are competing on a budget, however how many of you visit the catering van at an event and quite happily spent £5 on a burger or £2 on a cup of coffee? If you are really on a budget you take a packed lunch. I had a lady try and barter with me a couple of weeks ago because she's spent most of her money on some chips from the burger van next door, so could she have a discounted print- I said no, she could buy them online instead. She didn't go to the burger van and ask for discounted chips so she could buy a photo- some people just need to get their priorities right! 

I certainly don't moan about being an event photographer- it's my choice and my decision to stand out there (and make all of my photographers stand in the pouring rain all day). However I will have a bloody good moan if I have stood in the rain all day and then come home to find watermarked images on facebook. Luckily down here I have a very loyal customer base and a hugely popular facebook page, being in Cornwall the equestrian community is very close knit and we have some fantastic customers but I am constantly trying to educate those minority riders who do not appreciate what we do.
		
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You are missing my point.  It's a matter of supply and demand - if you have the goods that someone wants to buy at the right price, then they will buy them.  I was making the point that some photographers moan that they have to charge high prices because they have high overheads, and give the impression that competitors are 'obliged' to purchase something - after all the photographer has bothered to turn up and stand out in the rain all day - well they may have but if no-one wants to buy their photos because they're too expensive (in the customers view) then they're soon not going to have a business!

As for 'if you're on a budget you should take a packed lunch' - words fail me!  A competitor will spend their money on whatever the heck they want, as you said they are there pursuing their hobby, it's not a matter of priorities it's a matter of choice!  Maybe that lady did go and barter for her chips, who knows?  As a vendor you either chose to go with it or politely say no.

And I agree - if I'd stood out in the rain all day taking photos, I would be equally as p'd off if I came home to find someone had pinched them, I'm not arguing with you about that at all!


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## criso (1 May 2014)

Our local photographer offers 3 options - buy a print, buy a high res image which has greater usage rights and low res for forums and social networking sites. 

I will often buy 5 or 6 of option 3 so it is a good option.

The only condition is you do not remove their name from the image so you are crediting them.

However I've still just got told off by hho for using an image on here that I bought for that purpose so you can't win.u


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## mikedpe (1 May 2014)

criso said:



			However I've still just got told off by hho for using an image on here that I bought for that purpose so you can't win.u
		
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This is the sort of issue that we as photographers need to work on with people like hho so that a good service is maintained.

Mike


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## Twizzel (1 May 2014)

meardsall_millie said:



			You are missing my point.  It's a matter of supply and demand - if you have the goods that someone wants to buy at the right price, then they will buy them.  I was making the point that some photographers moan that they have to charge high prices because they have high overheads, and give the impression that competitors are 'obliged' to purchase something - after all the photographer has bothered to turn up and stand out in the rain all day - well they may have but if no-one wants to buy their photos because they're too expensive (in the customers view) then they're soon not going to have a business!

As for 'if you're on a budget you should take a packed lunch' - words fail me!  A competitor will spend their money on whatever the heck they want, as you said they are there pursuing their hobby, it's not a matter of priorities it's a matter of choice!  Maybe that lady did go and barter for her chips, who knows?  As a vendor you either chose to go with it or politely say no.

And I agree - if I'd stood out in the rain all day taking photos, I would be equally as p'd off if I came home to find someone had pinched them, I'm not arguing with you about that at all!
		
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What I'm saying is most people don't think twice about using the burger van, but then moan about the price of a print. A JPEG from me costs the same as a cup of takeaway coffee. Yes everyone is within their rights to spend their money on what they want. I rarely use the catering on site- I take a packed lunch because it's a lot cheaper, and used to as well when I was competing as quite frankly I preferred to spend my money more wisely than on takeaway food of mediocre quality. 

Granted a photographer as well as any other businessman should price according to the market which I certainly do, the standard £10-£12 for a 9x6 at a local show is about the norm- a lot of people think it should be half this price or even cheaper but they do not understand the overheads and running costs of such a business, which I think is what photographers are trying to explain here. It's not just the case of rocking up with a camera and snapping away.


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## teapot (1 May 2014)

I fully support togs upping the anti regarding the theft of photos and I posted Santa's link on my own fb page because I have a number of friends who think it's ok to steal watermarked images. I think it just comes down to a lack of understanding and awareness regarding copyright law. 

That said, I saw someone comment on a photographer's status saying that whilst she'd never steal photos that are for sale, if they weren't for sale, she effectively saw them as fair game to use?! I don't think it's right to steal/borrow/use anyone's photo without permission whether it's for sale or not. 

I've had some photos used for a specific facebook group, who then asked if I could take some more at their next event. I was very happy to do so and meant I briefly topped up my tan yesterday morning. I'm far from professional but did spend last evening editing some 200 images for them to choose from. The time and effort involved with photography at a professional level, as demonstrated by those on this thread is vast and it's about time people realised that!


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## meardsall_millie (1 May 2014)

Twizzel said:



			What I'm saying is most people don't think twice about using the burger van, but then moan about the price of a print. A JPEG from me costs the same as a cup of takeaway coffee. Yes everyone is within their rights to spend their money on what they want. I rarely use the catering on site- I take a packed lunch because it's a lot cheaper, and used to as well when I was competing as quite frankly I preferred to spend my money more wisely than on takeaway food of mediocre quality. 

Granted a photographer as well as any other businessman should price according to the market which I certainly do, the standard £10-£12 for a 9x6 at a local show is about the norm- a lot of people think it should be half this price or even cheaper but they do not understand the overheads and running costs of such a business, which I think is what photographers are trying to explain here. It's not just the case of rocking up with a camera and snapping away.
		
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OK let's consider this realistically.  Your average hobby event rider has every intention of making a packed lunch for her event on Saturday, however by the time she's legged it to the yard from work (possibly one of several jobs she's holding down to fund this stupidly expensive hobby), ridden, bathed, spruced and plaited horse, it's close to a quarter to midnight by the time she gets to bed as she's also had to sit at home cleaning her tack and sorting the rest of her kit out, so the packed lunch is forgotten.  

She's up at 3.30 the next morning to feed and muck out before driving for 3 hours to get to the event in plenty of time to walk the course before the 8am dressage.

So at lunchtime, after she's finished riding, she's in your tent choosing a lovely picture to purchase, when she suddenly feels a bit squiffy.  It's at that point she realises the last thing she ate was a Mars Bar last night whilst cleaning the horses stud holes out (obviously you can't count the 3 cans of Red Bull and half a bag of Haribo she had this morning as it was too early to eat when she left the yard, and she couldn't stomach any food after seeing the size of the ditch under the trakehner at fence 11).  She has £15 in her pocket (that's all she's got after forking out for training, entry fees, start fees and fuel), so what does she do?  Buy your lovely print or get something to eat from the mediocre burger van?  And having chosen the food, she might come back to you and push her luck with a bit of bartering for her lovely print.

Ok, sorry - I know I'm being facetious but the fact of the matter is that the majority of riders have a finite budget and once it's gone, it's gone.  Regardless of how good value, or how much in keeping with the market all these extras are, they can't buy them all.

I've said my piece so I'll shut up now.  I probably need to be careful as I guess there's a burger van owner on the horizon trying to hunt me down to tell me exactly why they can't use better quality ingredients (ie a burger that's been closer to a cow than whizzing past a field full of bovines in the freezer lorry) because it would put their overheads up and they'd have to charge more for the food......


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## dieseldog (1 May 2014)

meardsall_millie said:



			Ok, sorry - I know I'm being facetious but the fact of the matter is that the majority of riders have a finite budget and once it's gone, it's gone.  Regardless of how good value, or how much in keeping with the market all these extras are, they can't buy them all.
		
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And it seems to be a fact of life that in the list of priorities buying food, rather than making a packed lunch, is higher up the list than buying a photo  - that doesn't make them bad people - you just need to work out how to utilise the remaining spare cash.  Can you do instant downloads via bluetooth or emailed to someones phone at an event? Does anyone do that to capture the impulse buyers?  I rarely buy a physical photo anymore as I have nowhere to put them, the last ones I bought are still in the envelope they were delivered in 5 years ago!  But I do like a cheaper download as it looks nice on FB.


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## mikedpe (1 May 2014)

dieseldog said:



			And it seems to be a fact of life that in the list of priorities buying food, rather than making a packed lunch, is higher up the list than buying a photo  - that doesn't make them bad people - you just need to work out how to utilise the remaining spare cash.  Can you do instant downloads via bluetooth or emailed to someones phone at an event? Does anyone do that to capture the impulse buyers?  I rarely buy a physical photo anymore as I have nowhere to put them, the last ones I bought are still in the envelope they were delivered in 5 years ago!  But I do like a cheaper download as it looks nice on FB.
		
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Many fields have poor signal strengths, meaning difficult to email. I have the gallery set up for Facebook images

Mike


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## spidge (2 May 2014)

Cracking post Meardsall-Millie. 

Substitute getting horses ready for delivering and setting up trailer one day prior to the event, course walk to ensure we have chosen the most boring,banal and smallest jumps on the course with the most cluttered backgrounds shooting directly into the sun as we know riders love and respect us for that.  Setup 600 folders with rider name, number and horse name ready to load the boring banal teeny weeny jump pictures in tomorrow if we can cajole the bikes collecting the jump judge score sheets to bring back the camera cards at least once every couple of hours and hopefully the same day. Check and hope staff will turn up on time with fully charged batteries and their game face on.  Find that the pitch you have been allocated is completely unlevel, as far as it is physically possible from the scorers tent and guess what, you forgot the vouchers that you need to supply to the organiser for all the section winners you have provided prizes for.  Just reprint them!  Can you also get that special shot for the sponsor that won't actually pay you for that picture, you know on the jump your not covering but if you could just pop down, please.  Didn't we tell you that the video company was here, oh sorry about that.  Competition day get up about the same time as the riders to travel to event, hope that you put unleaded in the generator not diesel in your hurry, wonder which health and safety clipboard wizard will be at this event?  Can we get the announcers to possibly announce us just once, after all we pay almost as much to be here as Jones the Jewellers who have been plugged 37 times already this morning.   Oh goody,  pleased to note that at least 5 of our favourite hobbyist photographers will also be on course all weekend diligently snapping away ready to publish on Facebook tonight with the watermark almost visible if you squint hard enough.  300 riders and 10 hours later your photographers re-appear, grumpy that the jump judge refused to move their pink and  mauve Fiesta out of their shot, grumpy that the nearest portaloo was so close they would only miss 10 riders so they had to use the nearest bush.  The poor guys on the stand then have to spend half an hour placating the riders with less pics than everyone else that it really was an unfortunate co-incidence that they got missed this week (as well as last week). Spend ages trying to get the showjumping photographer enthused about photographing the same 5 jumps another 300 times tomorrow.  Indulge the regional U18 starlet whilst she patiently explains to all and sundry why she won't be buying pictures this week as nothing really grabs her- today's only a warmup round really for next week at ..... wherever! Try and adjudicate between various mummy and daughter squabbles throughout the day about which pictures they could both potentially live with and still remain in the same house in the country.  Last few customers eventually leave the stand at 7pm because they are simply too tired to decide, answer several emails to explain when today's gallery will be online and several others to explain how to download images from Dropbox that you sent that afternoon when the wifi dongle briefly had a data signal.  Oh you have a Hotmail account, check your trash folder please , the email I sent you will be in there, honestly.  Hooray, finally decamp to pub half an hour after everyone else has left the field, please let there be a table, any table and explaining that you don't mind waiting half an hour before placing your food order. Check into Travelodge, cart all your camera equipment up three flights of steps through 18 firedoors and hope that the bed is tolerable. Super the 24 wifi you just paid for is snail speed, can't load today's gallery of 7000 high res images, will do it Sunday night after three consecutive 16 hour days and your cross eyed after the 2 hour drive home in the peeing rain.  9am Monday the phone starts ringing- why aren't the pictures up yet!  Hey ho at least the sun is shining and the dogs are pacing up and down the hallway demanding to know how long you'll be...Nope sorry didn't hear the phone ring 

By Monday night the U18 starlet has created her Flippagram video of all her horses that weekend, updated her social media profile and got hundreds of like from all her chums. It's great that she left the watermark on all the pics to advertise the photographers.  Just occasionally you realise that the riders proudly displaying their paid for pictures were the same ones stood next to you at the burger stand.  Funny old world.


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## rotters13 (2 May 2014)

Oh dear. Poor you - none of you sound like you enjoy what you do as a result. Perhaps suggest new career?

Do appreciate problem of people stealing photos. I do suspect it's a problem of ignorance however.


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## mikedpe (2 May 2014)

rotters13 said:



			Oh dear. Poor you - none of you sound like you enjoy what you do as a result. Perhaps suggest new career?

Do appreciate problem of people stealing photos. I do suspect it's a problem of ignorance however.
		
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Nobody is looking for sympathy, but understanding of why we are legitimately angry after working our butts off to find work stolen.

Good Enough to Steal - Good Enough to Deal

Mike


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## spidge (2 May 2014)

Rotters 13- you read that wrong, for the most part we love what we do.  Trust me if you didn't you wouldn't last long in the event photography industry and your potential customers would soon make their own decisions. Those decisions impact very directly whether we succeed or find something else to do.


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## dollymix (2 May 2014)

spidge said:



			Cracking post Meardsall-Millie. 

Substitute getting horses ready for delivering and setting up trailer one day prior to the event, course walk to ensure we have chosen the most boring,banal and smallest jumps on the course with the most cluttered backgrounds shooting directly into the sun as we know riders love and respect us for that.  Setup 600 folders with rider name, number and horse name ready to load the boring banal teeny weeny jump pictures in tomorrow if we can cajole the bikes collecting the jump judge score sheets to bring back the camera cards at least once every couple of hours and hopefully the same day. Check and hope staff will turn up on time with fully charged batteries and their game face on.  Find that the pitch you have been allocated is completely unlevel, as far as it is physically possible from the scorers tent and guess what, you forgot the vouchers that you need to supply to the organiser for all the section winners you have provided prizes for.  Just reprint them!  Can you also get that special shot for the sponsor that won't actually pay you for that picture, you know on the jump your not covering but if you could just pop down, please.  Didn't we tell you that the video company was here, oh sorry about that.  Competition day get up about the same time as the riders to travel to event, hope that you put unleaded in the generator not diesel in your hurry, wonder which health and safety clipboard wizard will be at this event?  Can we get the announcers to possibly announce us just once, after all we pay almost as much to be here as Jones the Jewellers who have been plugged 37 times already this morning.   Oh goody,  pleased to note that at least 5 of our favourite hobbyist photographers will also be on course all weekend diligently snapping away ready to publish on Facebook tonight with the watermark almost visible if you squint hard enough.  300 riders and 10 hours later your photographers re-appear, grumpy that the jump judge refused to move their pink and  mauve Fiesta out of their shot, grumpy that the nearest portaloo was so close they would only miss 10 riders so they had to use the nearest bush.  The poor guys on the stand then have to spend half an hour placating the riders with less pics than everyone else that it really was an unfortunate co-incidence that they got missed this week (as well as last week). Spend ages trying to get the showjumping photographer enthused about photographing the same 5 jumps another 300 times tomorrow.  Indulge the regional U18 starlet whilst she patiently explains to all and sundry why she won't be buying pictures this week as nothing really grabs her- today's only a warmup round really for next week at ..... wherever! Try and adjudicate between various mummy and daughter squabbles throughout the day about which pictures they could both potentially live with and still remain in the same house in the country.  Last few customers eventually leave the stand at 7pm because they are simply too tired to decide, answer several emails to explain when today's gallery will be online and several others to explain how to download images from Dropbox that you sent that afternoon when the wifi dongle briefly had a data signal.  Oh you have a Hotmail account, check your trash folder please , the email I sent you will be in there, honestly.  Hooray, finally decamp to pub half an hour after everyone else has left the field, please let there be a table, any table and explaining that you don't mind waiting half an hour before placing your food order. Check into Travelodge, cart all your camera equipment up three flights of steps through 18 firedoors and hope that the bed is tolerable. Super the 24 wifi you just paid for is snail speed, can't load today's gallery of 7000 high res images, will do it Sunday night after three consecutive 16 hour days and your cross eyed after the 2 hour drive home in the peeing rain.  9am Monday the phone starts ringing- why aren't the pictures up yet!  Hey ho at least the sun is shining and the dogs are pacing up and down the hallway demanding to know how long you'll be...Nope sorry didn't hear the phone ring 

By Monday night the U18 starlet has created her Flippagram video of all her horses that weekend, updated her social media profile and got hundreds of like from all her chums. It's great that she left the watermark on all the pics to advertise the photographers.  Just occasionally you realise that the riders proudly displaying their paid for pictures were the same ones stood next to you at the burger stand.  Funny old world.
		
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EPIC  response! Love it! Never laughed so much! Well done for matching like for like!


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## spidge (2 May 2014)

thank you Dollymix- it was meant to be very lighthearted and not a whinge


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## dollymix (2 May 2014)

spidge said:



			thank you Dollymix- it was meant to be very lighthearted and not a whinge
		
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It is brilliant and makes several very valid points in a very funny way! Round of applause from me


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## meardsall_millie (2 May 2014)

Touche Mr Spidge! 

I think our underlying messages continue to be the same though don't they - we all work blimmin' hard, don't whinge and moan (particularly about each other) and be honest and pay your way!

X


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## Tnavas (2 May 2014)

Something all you photographers need to consider.

Were you asked to attend the show by the organisers. If not you are photographing people illegally. And you have no right to put copyright on your photos.

When a competitor signs the entry form they are only agreeing that the shows official photographer can take photos of them for use by the show organisers. 

If you photographers are so peed off about the 'theft' of your photos use modern software to prevent people being able to copy your photos. If you don't use this software don't whine about your pictures being shared around.


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## mikedpe (2 May 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Something all you photographers need to consider.

Were you asked to attend the show by the organisers. If not you are photographing people illegally. And you have no right to put copyright on your photos.

When a competitor signs the entry form they are only agreeing that the shows official photographer can take photos of them for use by the show organisers. 

If you photographers are so peed off about the 'theft' of your photos use modern software to prevent people being able to copy your photos. If you don't use this software don't whine about your pictures being shared around.
		
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Sorry but you are wrong, as the photographer they still have copyright protection.

What they most likely doing is breaking the conditions of entry to the venue.

As to copying images, it is modern software that has made it easier not more difficult. Just because you can does not mean you are allowed.

Mike


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## Tnavas (2 May 2014)

mikedpe said:



			Sorry but you are wrong, as the photographer they still have copyright protection.

What they most likely doing is breaking the conditions of entry to the venue.

As to copying images, it is modern software that has made it easier not more difficult. Just because you can does not mean you are allowed.

Mike
		
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There is software available that can prevent the majority of people from copying photos on line.

Unless you are the official photographer you do not have permission to take photos of people at the show and then to publish them on the internet - it is not legal! Especially if those people are children!


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## TGM (2 May 2014)

Whilst modern software allows photographers to disable the right click option which allows users to save images from the site to their hard disk, I can't see what can actually be done in terms of software to stop people screen printing images.  If you can see images on the screen you can screenprint them and the only thing the photographer can do is put great big watermarks over the image to discourage copying or not put photos online at all (which would be a great loss for those of us who like to buy online at home).  If you are aware of any software which can prevent screenprinting of images and still allows the customers to view online I'm sure all the photographers on here would be very interested indeed!


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## mikedpe (2 May 2014)

Tnavas said:



			There is software available that can prevent the majority of people from copying photos on line.

Unless you are the official photographer you do not have permission to take photos of people at the show and then to publish them on the internet - it is not legal! Especially if those people are children!
		
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Sorry but you are still wrong, there is no law that will make it illegal to publish photos to the internet.

As to the software as I said, it is now much easier, in fact they teach the 5 year olds at the local primary school how to do it.

Mike


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## Twizzel (2 May 2014)

Tnavas said:



			There is software available that can prevent the majority of people from copying photos on line.

Unless you are the official photographer you do not have permission to take photos of people at the show and then to publish them on the internet - it is not legal! Especially if those people are children!
		
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Wrong, take a look at this link to photographing people in a public place
http://lindsaydobsonphotography.com/blog/photographing-people-and-children-in-public-places/

Unless stipulated on entry to the event that photography is forbidden, nobody is breaking the law. Most event photographers (all that have conversed on this thread) will have been invited to cover the show.

I have disabled right click on my website however there is nothing to stop people print screening images so if you know of a piece of software to disable print screening then please do tell as the producer of that software is about to get a lot of custom from event togs!


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## Tnavas (2 May 2014)

As the majority of equestrian events are held on private land then you require the permission from the landowner/ show organiser to take pictures.

The competitor has only agreed to allow photos to be taken by the shows official photographer.

To be honest I can't understand why equine photographers get so uptight about their photos as the only person likely to buy the photo is the horses owner/rider and they are only likely to buy one or two. 

Instead of whining make sure that photos have the photographers name AND contact details such as phone or email/ web site. Make the most of the advertising.


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## TableDancer (2 May 2014)

I wasn't going to bother to get involved with this thread but found myself thinking about it at 5am this morning so obviously need to get it off my chest 

First, I do not steal photos and would never condone doing so - my daughter is one of the clearly much-despised Junior riders on the circuit and she knows never to steal and always asks tog if she can share a photo on FB even when they themselves have uploaded the photo and tagged her.

HOWEVER, I do think professional photographers do themselves no favours with their buying public once debates like these begin. I actually liked the OP and think it is a good idea. But as the debate has developed the very jaundiced view togs have of their customers becomes clearer and frankly I become more and more turned off.

1. With respect to Spidge's lengthy reply above, yes, you work hard - you earn money for it, this is your profession, there are many other professions which are hard work and often uncomfortable, presumably you do it because you enjoy it, if not why do you bother? Retrain and go and work in a nice warm office somewhere - same advice as I would give anyone who attempts to earn a living in the equestrian world and doesn't do it at least partly for the love...

2. With respect to competitors negotiating with you, surely a simple "no" will suffice, no need to get on your high horse about packed lunches. No harm in them asking, in my view, someone else might have said yes - I often try to negotiate with tradestands, nobody has ever been offended by it (to my knowledge) they are either interested in striking a deal or they are not, if not then fine it is my choice to either buy at original price or not to 

3. With respect to the comment someone made earlier about prices of photos, I was amazed to see that certain togs seem to think it is ok to "racketeer" by charging more for photos at big Championships than other events!! I am probably more likely to buy photos at such a competition than at a run of the mill event, but certainly wouldn't expect to be charged more for the privelege, and will be checking prices carefully from now on to make sure this isn't the case.

Overall, I find many of the sentiments expressed on here by togs pretty distasteful, an interesting insight into the disdain with which you tend to view us, your customers, and it will make me less inclined to buy not more. I hadn't realised that when we look at photos on your monitors we should feel obliged to buy,whether we like them or not, and so I will be discouraging my daughter from even looking from now on. It is an interesting attitude to the retail business, which - like it or not - is the one you are in, but there we are!


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## mikedpe (2 May 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Instead of whining make sure that photos have the photographers name AND contact details such as phone or email/ web site. Make the most of the advertising.
		
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This is the old advertise where you stole from argument, sorry but not for me.

Mike


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## TGM (2 May 2014)

Tnavas said:



			To be honest I can't understand why equine photographers get so uptight about their photos as the only person likely to buy the photo is the horses owner/rider and they are only likely to buy one or two. 

Instead of whining make sure that photos have the photographers name AND contact details such as phone or email/ web site. Make the most of the advertising.
		
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The reason they get uptight is because they are running a business which needs to make a profit!  If someone illegally copies an image rather than buying it, then that reduces their income.  And whilst each image may only bring in a few pounds, when illegal copying is widescale then they are losing a lot of money.  

If someone stole a designer handbag from a shop would you say that was OK because it had the designer's logo on it, so it is good advertising for the designer when the thief parades the handbag out and about?


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## mikedpe (2 May 2014)

TableDancer said:



			I wasn't going to bother to get involved with this thread but found myself thinking about it at 5am this morning so obviously need to get it off my chest 

First, I do not steal photos and would never condone doing so - my daughter is one of the clearly much-despised Junior riders on the circuit and she knows never to steal and always asks tog if she can share a photo on FB even when they themselves have uploaded the photo and tagged her.
		
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Photographers really appreciate people that take this approach.




			HOWEVER, I do think professional photographers do themselves no favours with their buying public once debates like these begin. I actually liked the OP and think it is a good idea. But as the debate has developed the very jaundiced view togs have of their customers becomes clearer and frankly I become more and more turned off.

1. With respect to Spidge's lengthy reply above, yes, you work hard - you earn money for it, this is your profession, there are many other professions which are hard work and often uncomfortable, presumably you do it because you enjoy it, if not why do you bother? Retrain and go and work in a nice warm office somewhere - same advice as I would give anyone who attempts to earn a living in the equestrian world and doesn't do it at least partly for the love...

2. With respect to competitors negotiating with you, surely a simple "no" will suffice, no need to get on your high horse about packed lunches. No harm in them asking, in my view, someone else might have said yes - I often try to negotiate with tradestands, nobody has ever been offended by it (to my knowledge) they are either interested in striking a deal or they are not, if not then fine it is my choice to either buy at original price or not to 

3. With respect to the comment someone made earlier about prices of photos, I was amazed to see that certain togs seem to think it is ok to "racketeer" by charging more for photos at big Championships than other events!! I am probably more likely to buy photos at such a competition than at a run of the mill event, but certainly wouldn't expect to be charged more for the privilege, and will be checking prices carefully from now on to make sure this isn't the case.
		
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To cover the larger and higher classed events will often mean us bringing in photographers that charge us more i.e. they travel further, they have more expensive equipment to maintain etc. etc. which is why it costs more.




			Overall, I find many of the sentiments expressed on here by togs pretty distasteful, an interesting insight into the disdain with which you tend to view us, your customers, and it will make me less inclined to buy not more. I hadn't realised that when we look at photos on your monitors we should feel obliged to buy,whether we like them or not, and so I will be discouraging my daughter from even looking from now on. It is an interesting attitude to the retail business, which - like it or not - is the one you are in, but there we are!
		
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Do you find it bad when Waitrose and Tescos etc. take action against offenders, or warn about the actions. There is a large difference and that is that we want to work together with you the riders so that at the end of the day we both have something we want.

Mike


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## vic07 (2 May 2014)

Eloquent reply table dancer! Couldn't agree more.


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## meardsall_millie (2 May 2014)

mikedpe said:



			Do you find it bad when Waitrose and Tescos etc. take action against offenders, or warn about the actions. There is a large difference ahat is that we want to work together with you the riders so that at the end of the day we both have something we want.

Mike
		
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No of course not.

Equally I can't remember the last time I saw a representative from Waitrose or Tesco on a supermarket shoppers internet forum sl*gging off their customers!


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## TGM (2 May 2014)

TableDancer said:



			First, I do not steal photos and would never condone doing so - my daughter is one of the clearly much-despised Junior riders on the circuit and she knows never to steal and always asks tog if she can share a photo on FB even when they themselves have uploaded the photo and tagged her.
		
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I think perhaps that's Spidge's long narrative above has perhaps not been taken in the humorous spirit he intended.  I can assure you that he and his company are very supportive of the majority of junior riders, and indeed sponsors several local juniors, as well as taking the time and effort to help others.  But like all areas in life, there are junior riders that give the others a bad name.  It is obvious that the relationship between photographers and riders is a complicated and sometimes fraught one, and I hope discussions like this can help make each side see both sides of the coin.


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## mikedpe (2 May 2014)

meardsall_millie said:



			No of course not.

Equally I can't remember the last time I saw a representative from Waitrose or Tesco on a supermarket shoppers internet forum sl*gging off their customers!
		
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Actually the only ones we are complaining about are the ones that are not customers, as I have said a number of times the issue is not the 99% but the 1% and no these are not just young riders, it goes across the complete spectrum of riding ages and abilities.

Mike


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## meardsall_millie (2 May 2014)

mikedpe said:



			Actually the only ones we are complaining about are the ones that are not customers, as I have said a number of times the issue is not the 99% but the 1% and no these are not just young riders, it goes across the complete spectrum of riding ages and abilities.

Mike
		
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And the people the supermarkets target are not customers either if they are stealing. 

You have now had a number of people on this thread expressing how aggrieved they are by your comments (and other togs too).  Can you really not appreciate how much this is alienating your potential paying customers?!


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## meardsall_millie (2 May 2014)

TGM said:



			The reason they get uptight is because they are running a business which needs to make a profit!  If someone illegally copies an image rather than buying it, then that reduces their income.  And whilst each image may only bring in a few pounds, when illegal copying is widescale then they are losing a lot of money.
		
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I think it's very unlikely they are losing a sale as it's highly unlikely those people would have bought the picture anyway!

(Still not saying stealing is right......)


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## mikedpe (2 May 2014)

meardsall_millie said:



			And the people the supermarkets target are not customers either if they are stealing. 

You have now had a number of people on this thread expressing how aggrieved they are by your comments (and other togs too).  Can you really not appreciate how much this is alienating your potential paying customers?!
		
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So we should just not talk about this at all? Repeatedly in this and other threads photographers have asked how we can stop the issues, provide a better service etc. etc. - I started the thread because I am having success and being supported by riders in getting images removed or paid for. The only financial benefitters are the Air Ambulance. Many of the postings clearly demonstrate that there needs to be more education about the legal implications of image theft as many do not understand or know but choose to ignore. From the photographers side there may be more that some can do but there are a lot more riders than there are photographers so surely that is a good place to go and discuss such issues?

Mike


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## TGM (2 May 2014)

meardsall_millie said:



			I think it's very unlikely they are losing a sale as it's highly unlikely those people would have bought the picture anyway!

(Still not saying stealing is right......)
		
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You'd be surprised actually, have seen people who routinely copied watermarked images now posting bought ones instead.  How much is due to the availability of reasonably priced jpgs and instant downloads, greater awareness of the illegalities of their actions or the increased vigilance of togs on social media sites I don't know.


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## mikedpe (2 May 2014)

TGM said:



			You'd be surprised actually, have seen people who routinely copied watermarked images now posting bought ones instead.  How much is due to the availability of reasonably priced jpgs and instant downloads, greater awareness of the illegalities of their actions or the increased vigilance of togs on social media sites I don't know.
		
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Why are a number of photographers now doing this? In part it is due to having good conversations with riders such as the long thread that Spidge posted about.

Mike


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## Twizzel (2 May 2014)

TGM said:



			You'd be surprised actually, have seen people who routinely copied watermarked images now posting bought ones instead.  How much is due to the availability of reasonably priced jpgs and instant downloads, greater awareness of the illegalities of their actions or the increased vigilance of togs on social media sites I don't know.
		
Click to expand...


Yes I too have had customers in the past realise the error of their ways and have purchased those photographs- and photos from future shows, so copyright infringement does affect our sales.


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## TGM (2 May 2014)

mikedpe said:



			So we should just not talk about this at all? Repeatedly in this and other threads photographers have asked how we can stop the issues, provide a better service etc. etc. - I started the thread because I am having success and being supported by riders in getting images removed or paid for. The only financial benefitters are the Air Ambulance. Many of the postings clearly demonstrate that there needs to be more education about the legal implications of image theft as many do not understand or know but choose to ignore. From the photographers side there may be more that some can do but there are a lot more riders than there are photographers so surely that is a good place to go and discuss such issues?

Mike
		
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I think the problem has not been so much with the original intention of the thread, but some of the side issues raised further along.  Particularly, I should say the one about customers viewing the images on the stand but then not buying.  Whilst I appreciate it was attempt to illustrate some of the frustrations of being an event photographer, I do think you run the risk of putting people off viewing unless they are 100% certain they want to buy.  Sometimes people aren't intending to buy when they go in, and in fact are just having a nosey at the pics, but even they have the potential to be swayed if they spot an exceptional photo.  Likewise the comment about people asking for a discount, it is part and parcel of the job I think, and as long as people accept 'no' as an answer and aren't persistent about it, then it shouldn't be a problem.  If they expect a discount, however, and are stroppy when refused, that is a totally different kettle of fish, and I can understand you wanting to moan about that.


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## Houndman (2 May 2014)

Our photographer puts small low res images up and only sells prints unless by prior arrangement and the deal is that they are not uploaded onto the internet.  His prints are very reasonable and he says he actually does more trade that way.  He puts some images out with his name at the bottom and says that anyone can use them for free provided they ask first and credit him with them, including his name and contact details, which forms advertising for him.

Most of his business is with private customers who pay a set fee for so many photographs which includes the title to reproduce them, and if anyone copies them, it's their problem as he has already been paid.

The prices of licensed images has come down now, partly due to trying to avoid people using them without authorisation by making them cheaper, and also a lot to do with amateurs posting their own photos on stock photo sites as a means of making a few £s on the side.

Once the photographs are in public view, although it is illegal for people to reproduce them, in reality you have little control.  You can waste hours of time that could be used for work in asking websites to take images down, and you could spend a fortune taking people to court and not recovering your costs anyway.

Trouble is, with the internet, people are used to copying images and music now, and it is so widespread it is almost the norm.


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## Tnavas (2 May 2014)

mikedpe said:



			Actually the only ones we are complaining about are the ones that are not customers, as I have said a number of times the issue is not the 99% but the 1% and no these are not just young riders, it goes across the complete spectrum of riding ages and abilities.

Mike
		
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As I said earlier - the only person likely to buy a picture is the owner/rider which is a very limited market. I rarely buy more than one photo despite there being many available.

Personally I feel that there should not be copyright on photos, they are hardly artistically planned but just a lucky capture of the moment.

Levi don't get a copyright payment every time you wear there jeans, or the latest outfit you are wearing, a logo on the item if suffices!

If photographers are so unhappy, do what was done in times before digital, make contact prints and pin them up at the show. That's how I always got my pics in the past. The photographer had a mobile developing unit. 

If you place photos in a media that is easy to copy from you only have yourselves to blame.


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## mikedpe (2 May 2014)

TGM said:



			I should say the one about customers viewing the images on the stand but then not buying.
		
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That was somewhat misunderstood, we all want riders to be looking at our images and we will all accept that maybe we did not get a good shot of that rider on the day, we are after all only human and therefore we make mistakes. (read spidges explanation for more) and therefore they will not purchase. I go in to shops, fail to find anything interesting and leave without purchasing.

I have however seen on a number of occasions Riders purely coming in to view with no intention of even considering to purchase. They will talk through their performance to any who will listen or we get the mum/coach/trainer talk them through. In an empty marquee fine, in a packed viewing area with people that want to look because they want to buy it is an issue. How do we know they would not buy? Often because we have seen them do the same before.

I personally have no issue with people looking for a deal, in fact we run a number on site, the only thing that I find offensive is when people say "I am only prepared to pay xyz, you will lose if you do not accept". There is probably not a photographer amongst us who has evaluated the situation and taken slightly less than the listed price for an image. I have even been known to give images away 

Mike


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## cavalo branco (2 May 2014)

Just read some of this thread and enjoyed Spidge's account of a typical photographer's weekend!Btw lighten up guys, it was supposed to be funny!!
I have loads of sympathy for professional photographers and the stealing of images. Imagine spending a long day at the office and your boss not paying you because he got a quicker result himself. I must be old-fashioned (call that old!) but some poster's moral compass seems non-existent. I'm still not sure if you are allowed to use the image once you have bought the actual print? Come on horsey folk, it is lovely to be able to buy professional photos so let's support the industry.


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## Jo_x (2 May 2014)

Tnavas said:



			To be honest I can't understand why equine photographers get so uptight about their photos as the only person likely to buy the photo is the horses owner/rider and they are only likely to buy one or two. 

Instead of whining make sure that photos have the photographers name AND contact details such as phone or email/ web site. Make the most of the advertising.
		
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What use is advertising when, as you have pointed out, the only person that is likely to buy the image is the person in it?!


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## dollymix (2 May 2014)

cavalo branco said:



			Just read some of this thread and enjoyed Spidge's account of a typical photographer's weekend!Btw lighten up guys, it was supposed to be funny!!
I have loads of sympathy for professional photographers and the stealing of images. Imagine spending a long day at the office and your boss not paying you because he got a quicker result himself. I must be old-fashioned (call that old!) but some poster's moral compass seems non-existent. I'm still not sure if you are allowed to use the image once you have bought the actual print? Come on horsey folk, it is lovely to be able to buy professional photos so let's support the industry.
		
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I loved Spidge's response - very funny! And thank you - you have restored my faith in human decency and good (old) fashioned moral values!


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## Twizzel (2 May 2014)

Tnavas said:



			As I said earlier - the only person likely to buy a picture is the owner/rider which is a very limited market. I rarely buy more than one photo despite there being many available.

Personally I feel that there should not be copyright on photos, they are hardly artistically planned but just a lucky capture of the moment.

Levi don't get a copyright payment every time you wear there jeans, or the latest outfit you are wearing, a logo on the item if suffices!

If photographers are so unhappy, do what was done in times before digital, make contact prints and pin them up at the show. That's how I always got my pics in the past. The photographer had a mobile developing unit. 

If you place photos in a media that is easy to copy from you only have yourselves to blame.
		
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No but Levi would be slightly miffed if you remade those jeans and used their logo. 

We take lots of photos, not because we think you will buy them all, but because we like to give you a choice of images from your day if you would like to buy one. 

I like to think that my photos are artistically planned and not a lucky capture- lucky implies that you've caught that moment on the off chance- If I cover any event every single competitor needs to be photographed- that doesn't require luck, it requires skill. I plan all of my photos- I walk the course before a xc event not just taking note of the jumps, but the backgrounds, the light, weather conditions. Whether or not we have covered that jump recently. How many competitors are in every class. Our photographers are trained to look for those golden moments and when they may occur- such as those candid shots in a showing ring or patting/elation shots after a dressage test.  So I take offence at you insinuating that my job is down to luck, there is a huge element of planning and preparation to make the day run smoothly and the photos fantastic, see spidge's post. 

If copyright wasn't in place our images would be worthless. They would belong to anyone and everyone who staked a claim to them. Therefore we would be out of a career. 

Modern day event photographers are listening to the majority of people who want to see images on screens before they buy- do you really just buy from a tiny thumbnail? Were you ever shown the image on a computer screen before it was printed? The way we display our images at events is not the cause for copyright theft (although some will try to take photos of our screens), but the requirement that we print on site and have an active website for post event purchases is often what sways an event organiser from choosing us to be the official photographer than someone else.


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## Twizzel (2 May 2014)

cavalo branco said:



			Just read some of this thread and enjoyed Spidge's account of a typical photographer's weekend!Btw lighten up guys, it was supposed to be funny!!
I have loads of sympathy for professional photographers and the stealing of images. Imagine spending a long day at the office and your boss not paying you because he got a quicker result himself. I must be old-fashioned (call that old!) but some poster's moral compass seems non-existent. I'm still not sure if you are allowed to use the image once you have bought the actual print? Come on horsey folk, it is lovely to be able to buy professional photos so let's support the industry.
		
Click to expand...

Most photographers, especially if you ask them will have no issues with you using the image on social media. Using the image to sell a horse or for commercial gain is another matter entirely and again not one that many people understand. But if a rider has bought a print from me I am happy for them to put it onto social media- even though in the eyes of the law that would be breech of copyright as you have reproduced the image, the person has bought the print and supported us so I won't be uptight and ask for it to be removed.


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## spidge (2 May 2014)

Turn my back for a couple of hours and I miss all the fun.  For the record I have had several different careers over the years because I have this personality defect- I get bored quite easily.  Also for the record I love my job and have no intention of changing it for a nice warm office- I had that and got bored :-/

Twenty percent of our annual turnover is done online- if people want to purchase that way, it's their prerogative.  Although we can print on site, can upload to Facebook, Dropbox or email images direct from a show, there are certain customers who will only ever buy online.  

I mentioned previously a long thread on here started by me.  That and subsequent threads changed the course of my tottering equestrian event photography career.  We redefined our products, our pricing, our workflow, how we engage with customers, how we define our web strategy, social media presence etc.  Without listening to what I was being told by riders I doubt my business would have survived.  I still pop back here every now and again to ask for feedback because in my opinion there are very many well respected, erudite and helpful people on here with a wealth of experience, to ignore their views would be foolish. There's a fair percentage of trolls but hey that's tinternet and forums  for you.

So to summarise, yes my long post in reply to Meardsall Millie was very much in jest- totally agree touche! 

To break ranks slightly I genuinely believe that many equestrian togs need to sharpen their games and their pencils or maybe just open their ears to what they are being told   It's good to talk but sometimes better to just listen.


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## TGM (2 May 2014)

There are lots of points I want to respond to so shall put them all together rather than quoting lots of different posts!

To Mikedpe: As I said earlier, I think this type of thread is great and it is really good for photographers and riders to discuss the implications of copyright, plus what they each expect from each other.  However, if you are a business you do have to think quite carefully how things are phrased so as not to alienate those who would otherwise support your arguments.  The bit about viewing photos but not buying clearly touched a chord amongst readers here, and me personally, as I often view on the day but either don't buy at all, or buy online a couple of days later.  Obviously, that wasn't what you intended, but people read what you say, rather than what you mean to say!  A common problem on the internet, but particularly tricky for the business person trying to foster good relations.  It's just a shame it detracted from your very valid points on all the other issues!

And I do remember that first thread that Spidge did about five years ago - very clearly because I remember contributing to it.  At that point, being a keen amateur photographer, I would always take my own photos at competitions and would rarely buy from the pro, as prices were too high for me to justify, and often photos weren't available in jpg form.  It has been heartening to see how Spidge and other photographers have taken onboard so many of those points, and event photography in our area has been transformed to the point that I don't often have to take my camera out with me now as can rely on buying low res jpgs cheaply (and I hate putting up warm up jumps with a DSLR slung round my neck or having to sprint to get to the best XC jump in time).

Which brings me to another point, which is Tnavas's assertion that there is no art in event photography!  As I say I do photography as a hobby and can assure you that there is just as much skill involved in photographing horses in action as there is in composing a lovely landscape or portrait.  You need a skilful eye to get that moment when the horse is in mid flight with all four feet off the ground, plus there is a knack knowing exactly where to stand and get the best angle, the best background, the best light etc.  Not to mention quick thinking if one of your subjects takes the alternative route when you weren't expecting it!  You could send six different people to the same jump, armed with the same kind of camera, and I could guarantee that you would get six very different shots, some of them not very good at all!

As for going back to the system in the olden days, I am ancient enough to remember it well!  In those days you usually hacked to the local hunter trial, where you would find the course consisted of logs, hedges, post and rail fences, ditches and water - none of these fancy houses, aeroplanes or arrowheads that you get these days.  A few weeks later you would get a hand addressed envelope containing postage stamp sized proofs of your photos.  After squinting at them from several angles, you would take a gamble which was the best shot, fill in the paper form, write your cheque, put it in an envelope then walk to the local postbox and send it off.  About a month later you would receive that distinctive brown hardbacked envelope which you open to find your print and discover that your flies are undone, you are gurning exquisitely and your steed has his eyes shut and his ears flat back!  Not really worth framing, so you prop it up on the G Plan sideboard where it slowly starts to turn yellow and curl, until it drops down the back and disappears out of sight for years.

These days, by the time you have come back from the XC phase of a one day event and sorted your horse out, you can wander over to exclaim horror, disbelief or joy, at your dressage score, and then pop into the photographer's stand where  you can locate a folder full of images of your wonderful, or not so wonderful performance.  There you can purchase a print straightaway or have a jpg emailed to you. However, you are not sure which ones to buy, or have spent all your cash on chips, and your card is back in the lorry, and OH is in a hurry to depart then no worries, the next day you will find the pro has uploaded all the images onto t'internet and you can peruse and chose the shots at your leisure and buy a selection of digital images for £5 each. OK you may find the watermarks still disguise the fact you are gurning, but no system is perfect! These are available to download within minutes and you can share them on all your social media sites and store them for posterity on your hard drive or on a cloud somewhere!  I know which system I prefer!


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## teapot (2 May 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Personally I feel that there should not be copyright on photos, they are hardly artistically planned but just a lucky capture of the moment.
		
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Really?! Just a lucky capture? So it's purely sheer luck for a tog to capture all 500 odd competitors where in each photo the rider's eyes are open, the horse's ears are pricked, it's just the right moment mid air over a fence, or in the right moment of a walk/trot/canter/gallop stride to show the horse off at it's best, keeping all four legs, two ears, tail, nose, rider's head are all in the photo, all whilst making sure a rider's garish xc colours arn't too over or under exposed, someone hasn't just blocked the *insert stunning house in the background* of the photo whilst walking the course in a group, avoiding a car that's driving along the course, shadows in the right place, blue sky rather than murky cloud, completely in focus whilst a fly tries to land on your lens, no shaking despite freezing early Spring temperatures or rain drop marks as it pees it down for 8 hours. 

Yeah, total and utter sheer luck. Every single time.


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## Tnavas (2 May 2014)

When the horse goes over the jump it goes over the jump - you take the picture! With modern cameras you barely have to consider if it is in focus - it's done for you. Obviously the shots of people after they have been presented with a prize have had more time taken.

I have some lovely photos I took with a 35mm camera years ago, then you did have to work at getting everything right.

Nowadays the show may have an official photographer and there are also 20 other unofficial wannabes also taking pics, putting them up on line, these are the people who are taking your business, not the customer who shows off there heavily watermarked picture with their friends. 

Then you need to consider the financial aspect - the show was expensive enough and how many pictures can you really need of your horse jumping a fence? People just can't afford to constantly buy. 

Some of the best pics of my horses are ones that have been snapped by a friend. At a recent show I booked the photographer to take pics of my horse, all her photos were poor, and the one a friend took with her phone was excellent. My mare is easy to photograph, I only have to call her name and her ears shoot forward, she also stands like a rock. Needless to say the photgrapher did herself no favours.


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## Capriole (2 May 2014)

vic07 said:



			Eloquent reply table dancer! Couldn't agree more.
		
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Likewise.


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## glamourpuss (2 May 2014)

TGM said:



			There are lots of points I want to respond to so shall put them all together rather than quoting lots of different posts!

To Mikedpe: As I said earlier, I think this type of thread is great and it is really good for photographers and riders to discuss the implications of copyright, plus what they each expect from each other.  However, if you are a business you do have to think quite carefully how things are phrased so as not to alienate those who would otherwise support your arguments.  The bit about viewing photos but not buying clearly touched a chord amongst readers here, and me personally, as I often view on the day but either don't buy at all, or buy online a couple of days later.  Obviously, that wasn't what you intended, but people read what you say, rather than what you mean to say!  A common problem on the internet, but particularly tricky for the business person trying to foster good relations.  It's just a shame it detracted from your very valid points on all the other issues!

And I do remember that first thread that Spidge did about five years ago - very clearly because I remember contributing to it.  At that point, being a keen amateur photographer, I would always take my own photos at competitions and would rarely buy from the pro, as prices were too high for me to justify, and often photos weren't available in jpg form.  It has been heartening to see how Spidge and other photographers have taken onboard so many of those points, and event photography in our area has been transformed to the point that I don't often have to take my camera out with me now as can rely on buying low res jpgs cheaply (and I hate putting up warm up jumps with a DSLR slung round my neck or having to sprint to get to the best XC jump in time).

Which brings me to another point, which is Tnavas's assertion that there is no art in event photography!  As I say I do photography as a hobby and can assure you that there is just as much skill involved in photographing horses in action as there is in composing a lovely landscape or portrait.  You need a skilful eye to get that moment when the horse is in mid flight with all four feet off the ground, plus there is a knack knowing exactly where to stand and get the best angle, the best background, the best light etc.  Not to mention quick thinking if one of your subjects takes the alternative route when you weren't expecting it!  You could send six different people to the same jump, armed with the same kind of camera, and I could guarantee that you would get six very different shots, some of them not very good at all!

As for going back to the system in the olden days, I am ancient enough to remember it well!  In those days you usually hacked to the local hunter trial, where you would find the course consisted of logs, hedges, post and rail fences, ditches and water - none of these fancy houses, aeroplanes or arrowheads that you get these days.  A few weeks later you would get a hand addressed envelope containing postage stamp sized proofs of your photos.  After squinting at them from several angles, you would take a gamble which was the best shot, fill in the paper form, write your cheque, put it in an envelope then walk to the local postbox and send it off.  About a month later you would receive that distinctive brown hardbacked envelope which you open to find your print and discover that your flies are undone, you are gurning exquisitely and your steed has his eyes shut and his ears flat back!  Not really worth framing, so you prop it up on the G Plan sideboard where it slowly starts to turn yellow and curl, until it drops down the back and disappears out of sight for years.

These days, by the time you have come back from the XC phase of a one day event and sorted your horse out, you can wander over to exclaim horror, disbelief or joy, at your dressage score, and then pop into the photographer's stand where  you can locate a folder full of images of your wonderful, or not so wonderful performance.  There you can purchase a print straightaway or have a jpg emailed to you. However, you are not sure which ones to buy, or have spent all your cash on chips, and your card is back in the lorry, and OH is in a hurry to depart then no worries, the next day you will find the pro has uploaded all the images onto t'internet and you can peruse and chose the shots at your leisure and buy a selection of digital images for £5 each. OK you may find the watermarks still disguise the fact you are gurning, but no system is perfect! These are available to download within minutes and you can share them on all your social media sites and store them for posterity on your hard drive or on a cloud somewhere!  I know which system I prefer!
		
Click to expand...

...But that lovely 2nd system isn't what's happening for a lot of competitors. My last BE event there was no option to view at the event, 5 days later the proofs went on the togs website. The cheapest print was £17, a low res JPEG £20. I was very disappointed. I called the photographer & asked if there was any movement on the JPEG price or if I could have one for a few quid more if I bought a print because I only wanted to share on FB/Twitter. 
I was told a flat 'No'. I was very polite & said I'd that I'd seen other photographers offer this & I felt it would be desirable. I was told
'I don't care what other photographers do, they obviously have other jobs & can do this for fun but I have a living to earn'

Even though I didn't steal his proofs it was hard to feel sympathy for him when I did see his stolen images all through my news feed.


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## TGM (2 May 2014)

glamourpuss said:



			...But that lovely 2nd system isn't what's happening for a lot of competitors. My last BE event there was no option to view at the event, 5 days later the proofs went on the togs website. The cheapest print was £17, a low res JPEG £20. I was very disappointed. I called the photographer & asked if there was any movement on the JPEG price or if I could have one for a few quid more if I bought a print because I only wanted to share on FB/Twitter. 
I was told a flat 'No'. I was very polite & said I'd that I'd seen other photographers offer this & I felt it would be desirable. I was told
'I don't care what other photographers do, they obviously have other jobs & can do this for fun but I have a living to earn'

Even though I didn't steal his proofs it was hard to feel sympathy for him when I did see his stolen images all through my news feed.
		
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You need to move down our way, or perhaps Spidge needs to expand his empire into your area!  I feel your pain, as we used to be in this situation down here, plus last year we travelled as far afield as Cheshire, Hull, Warwickshire & Lincoln to compete, and discovered that a lot of photographers are still stuck in the dark ages!  Made us realise that we are very lucky around here. It is obvious that there are both bad photographers and bad customers, and both are responsible for creating bad feeling between riders and pro togs. 

Would be lovely if some of your local photographers took inspiration for creating a new business model from this thread, just as it would be great if some riders became more conscientious about respecting copyright after reading it.


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## Santa_Claus (2 May 2014)

Tnavas you have left me shocked but maybe not surprised. But may I issue a challenge? If modern cameras require no skill please at the next event we are both at (presuming you are in the uk?) hopefully when it is cold dark wet and miserable (to make it a proper challenge) that you take photos of 10 consecutive horses and then I will of the next and see if you can produce the same results if you can I will eat my words! 

As for the bad photographer you apparently hired just because a pro is a pro doesn't mean they are any good but a talented equine event photographer uses a lot of skill and talent to choose the right angle and location in addition to many other settings on the cameras. Actually my camera  doesn't have an auto setting so maybe that would be unfair to ask you to use 

As for the rest of the discussion there are very valid points from photographers and riders alike. My position is that I want to educate riders being one myself not victimise people. If people are educated they tend to become new clients which is a win win situation for all involved. 

And Spidge bravo a good photographer and a good businessman!


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## glamourpuss (2 May 2014)

TGM you've hit the nail on the head it is absolutely about having respect for each other! The business & sport are pretty intertwined us riders WANT nice pictures to show off to our friends & the photographers NEED us to buy images to earn a living....so we absolutely have to listen to & respect each other. 
I was so annoyed at that event photographer's attitude I've vowed to 1) turn a blind eye to anyone who is stealing proofs from him (I have previously commented on other stolen images something like 'nice pic would look much nicer without the watermark, have you seen you can get a legit one for £xx on the website?' Or even ' hey you want to be careful posting this, I've heard photographers are going after people who share images that haven't been paid for' 

2) To ask the event organiser if they would consider using a different photographer. 

Anyway this has been a very interesting discussion. I too wish Spidge & some of the other Togs who have obviously listened to their customers did more events in my region. Hey Ho


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## mikedpe (2 May 2014)

glamourpuss said:



			...But that lovely 2nd system isn't what's happening for a lot of competitors. My last BE event there was no option to view at the event, 5 days later the proofs went on the togs website. The cheapest print was £17, a low res JPEG £20. I was very disappointed. I called the photographer & asked if there was any movement on the JPEG price or if I could have one for a few quid more if I bought a print because I only wanted to share on FB/Twitter.
		
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You could always contact the organisers with your concerns, most of the photographers I know do not operate in that manner.

Mike


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## Twizzel (2 May 2014)

Tnavas said:



			When the horse goes over the jump it goes over the jump - you take the picture! With modern cameras you barely have to consider if it is in focus - it's done for you. Obviously the shots of people after they have been presented with a prize have had more time taken.

I have some lovely photos I took with a 35mm camera years ago, then you did have to work at getting everything right.

Nowadays the show may have an official photographer and there are also 20 other unofficial wannabes also taking pics, putting them up on line, these are the people who are taking your business, not the customer who shows off there heavily watermarked picture with their friends.
		
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You're right there are 2 issues with official event photography- one of which is what we have highlighted here and no matter how many times you say it doesn't affect our income, people lifting watermarked images from our websites does affect income. As I said before many of the people I catch with watermarked images will go on to buy those images from me when picked up on it. The 2nd issue is the unofficial togs who haven't paid to be at an event, probably don't have insurance but still put their pics online for all and sundry to use. Both of these issues take our business, both are issues that need to be tackled- one quick word to the event organiser about the 2nd normally sees that one sorted however the watermarked image issue is about educating the rider about copyright. 

Santa claus has taken the words out of my mouth r.e. just taking a picture as the horse goes over the jump- I too invite you to come and stand in a showjumping ring or out on the xc course and photograph a dozen people consecutively without fault! My camera has no auto settings, so I have to change settings according to the light which can change dramatically throughout the course of an hour let alone a whole day. My camera does not do all of the hard work for me, if I have it on the wrong setting it will show in the photos.

Glamourpuss that is a shame about your photographer at the event- I too would echo Mike and put your thoughts into writing to the event organiser. A lot of photographers are still in the dark ages with regards to printing on site and pricing and as said above would learn a lot from this thread and similar ones. Photographers have a bad name for thinking they are the be all and end all and their pricing/products/business plans are perfect but in reality we can all find areas to improve on to help ourselves and the riders alike.


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## spidge (2 May 2014)

My ears are burning , been out again and I have come back to read some very nice things said about my business, workflow and our customer service.  Thank you.  I have just been booked for 4 BE events next year precisely because the incumbent photographer is in the eyes of the organiser refusing to embrace what their customers/competitors want.  Remember the BE event has a a tipping point of competitors which determines their profitability.  If the event receives negative feedback amongst the riding fraternity because of x, y, or z, it will affect entries. I would never suggest for a minute that the photographer is the decisive  factor for the rider to choose event a over event b but it can be a small part of the decision making process.  

It is important to remember that event organisers are also competitors.  In the last few weeks I have had 2 competitors walk up to me on my stand and introduce themselves, hi I am so and so, we have booked you for our event at wherever.  They have experienced as a customer precisely what their customers will experience.  Reassuringly both despite being very experienced riders have gone on to purchase pictures and offer positive feedback on our total package. So the impact on my business is I am busier, more profitable and more in demand with quality bookings.  Am I smiling... you need to ask?


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## Firewell (2 May 2014)

Whenever I buy a photo I always ask if I can purchase a low res image for FB/HHO as well. It's normally only a couple of quid! I haven't had a photographer give me  one for free with a print that would be lovely!
What pee's me off is paying for a photo then it not being sent to me grrrrrrr! To be fair that has only happened once in the UK. Here in Cali they are so laid back it takes ages to get anything and I have to say its been seriously tempting to steal the friggin image I have paid for but not recieved but as of yet I am being good and holding back. (Can anyone tell I am still waiting for a photo from 5 weeks ago!).
Anyway I digress. I am lucky in England my Dad is a trained photographer and he came with his fancy camera and took beautiful shots for free yippeee! Here in Cali my friend has a super camera and has taken some lovely shots also. My next birthday present a new camera for me is def on the cards, my husband will have to get lots of practice getting the legs in the right position .
I digress.
I think the problem with FB is the moment a picture is posted, stolen or not it then belongs to FB. Anyone can get hold of it. That is the scary thing!


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## siennamiller (2 May 2014)

Tnavas, you may be good at photography, but I jumped at an event recently where the official photographer was pretty rubbish, most of the pics had caught exactly the wrong moment, and showed very unflattering pics( not just of me), the communication was poor, the service slow (almost a week for pics to show on website), I ordered a pic online at the beginning of March. Have just had to open a paypal dispute to get my money back.

Fast forward a few week to felbridge, pics are amazing, 3 or 4 screens available to look at pics, they offer a free email pic if you buy one (pics can be printed out on the day), and the email pic was with me by the time I had loaded the horse up. 
Not anyone can take good pics, it takes skill. They have expensive equipment etc....


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## spidge (2 May 2014)

Not wishing to inflame a war here but Tim who runs Felbridge Photography worked for us for three years whilst we trained him from competent enthusiast to decent equestrian photographer.    Is it a coincidence their workflow, pricing etc is similar to ours.  I think not.


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## MrFigjam (4 May 2014)

Tnavas said:



			When the horse goes over the jump it goes over the jump - you take the picture! With modern cameras you barely have to consider if it is in focus - it's done for you. 


Some of the best pics of my horses are ones that have been snapped by a friend. At a recent show I booked the photographer to take pics of my horse, all her photos were poor, and the one a friend took with her phone was excellent. My mare is easy to photograph, I only have to call her name and her ears shoot forward, she also stands like a rock. Needless to say the photgrapher did herself no favours.
		
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Modern schoolmaster horses are so easy to ride, anyone could jump on them and go round a cross country course.  All you need to do is sit on it and it'll do all the work for you.... it's not as if you are doing the hard work, the horse is doing all the running and jumping for you.

Sound ridiculous?  Yeah, well photography is the same.  Everyone believes it's easy and anyone can do it.   They can't.... you proved that with the so called professional photographer you hired.

The one your friend took probably was excellent.  People can fluke a good shot, but to nail every single one time after time takes skill.


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## Capriole (4 May 2014)

siennamiller said:



			Tnavas, you may be good at photography, but I jumped at an event recently where the official photographer was pretty rubbish, most of the pics had caught exactly the wrong moment, and showed very unflattering pics( not just of me),
		
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Ah that's so disappointing when that happens. I had the same the first time I took my filly to BEF and I was SO looking forward to the photos, and when they went up they were terrible :/  I thought, so maybe my horse is not photogenic, but I looked at the other horses' photos and they were all pretty dire...taken at the wrong moment, tails/back ends cut off, etc etc., not flattering at all   I'd have paid the expensive prices and bought the lot as that was a big occasion for me, but I couldn't find a single one I would have paid for.  (The photographer the next year was good, but I didn't buy any of the horses' pics as it wasn't my first BEF anymore, so I wasn't bothered about having any).


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## mikedpe (4 May 2014)

Funny old world, now I have some very expensive photographic gear and I have seen people with equally and even more expensive cameras and yet I have been asked by many of these people how to get a good shot. I just told some fellow photographers a story today of what happened last year. A lady approached the sales tent and said Oh look the photographers, let us have a look. Husband wearing about £10K of photographic neck jewelry said "I have been taking photos all day" to which the wife replied "I know dear, that is why I am going to look at the professionals images" - absolutely delighted to have sold her a package of images.
What was it that a famous Golf player said when a reporter said that he was very lucky? "The more I practice, the luckier I get" - we practice 100s of times, just to get that lucky shot 

Mike


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## spidge (4 May 2014)

Fuuny old world, this thread and some of it's posts, contributors and dare I say trolls got mentioned a fair few times by our customers today at a pony club ODE we photographed.  So refreshing to hear that what you have taken trouble to clarify or explain is read,appreciated, agreed with, listened to, responded to and better still has a direct contribution to the bottom line.


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## mikedpe (4 May 2014)

What is not so good is the email I just received showing about 10 images lifted from the gallery, Very large horse lorry, riders have multiple mounts so that must be why they can not afford to buy those images they are sharing with lots of people.

What is good is that email came from a rider who says this is not fair.

Thanks to the good ones for showing us the bad ones.

Hopefully more income for the Air ambulance.

Mike


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## eqaction (26 June 2014)

I know that this is an old thread, but I would love to add my 2 cents worth.

I fully appreciate that many people want to buy a small low res image for Facebook etc., which is why we offer just that (for under £5 per image).  Our images are always uploaded within 12 hours of the end of an event. It takes 2 of us working all night to do this.  The low res images are available as instant downloads (so no waiting for an email). We also have each image named with both horse and rider - so easy to find. We take the best care to protect our images by only using a small thumbnail. To view the quality of the photo you have to use a zoom feature which shows the image in sections.  We still however have multiple instances of people screen grabbing the small image with their smart phone.  This image is then blown up to a large size for Facebook.  Result of small low res image being blown up - a poor, pixelated, blurry image.  This does not act as advertising - it looks as if we are incompetent of taking a professional photograph.

When you politely ask someone (through private message) on Facebook to remove the image, the inevitable response is that you are "unfriended" so cannot see the image.  Fortunately there is a photographers group on FB where we report copyright infringements, so we can usually still track down the image.

We never photograph at any event that we have not been booked for, and remember that for larger events we can be expected to pay up to 1,500 for the stand.  We are covering a European event later this year, and before we start it is going to cost us over 10,000 on staffing, accommodation, travel etc. If all we were to get in return for that were low res. digital sales, we would be in a very serious situation. 

I think that many people do not realise the costs of running a photography business - and the fact that equipment needs to be replaced. For example the digital camera has a shutter life - when the shutter gives up the camera dies! I have just had to buy a new camera at a cost of over £5,000.  Yes you can of course have less expensive cameras, but we cover some large indoor events, and very few cameras can handle the ISO required for a magazine standard image.  In most cases the price of a camera is peanuts compared to the price of good glass (the lenses). 

I was amused by the comment that modern cameras do all the work on their own.  Have you ever tried to master the settings on a pro camera? They don't come with the auto settings of an entry level camera.    

If competitors do not wish to buy, that is absolutely fine.  I spent many years competing, so am well aware of the expenses involved. If someone does not wish to buy but decides to steal images instead, then that is a different matter.  

Re the comments about poor professional photos: yes there are plenty of those, but in many cases have been taken by people with no formal photography training. If you look at Facebook there seems to be a new "professional" company springing up every day.  Many of these are populated with images that are not even in focus!  If you are unhappy with the standard of photography by the official photographer - let the venue know.  They book the photographer. In quite a few cases that I know of, preference is given to the amount that the photographer is going to pay for the stand, rather than the quality of images. You can usually tell the wanabee pro shooters. They are the ones that sound like machine gun fire.  A good shot takes one click only - at the right time. 

We are lucky in that we provide FEI and other press photography, so manage to just keep our heads above water.  If we were to just keep going with just selling from equestrian events I think that it would be impossible.

It is a funny thing that much as competitors moan about the price of images, there is equally a lot of moaning if no photographer is present. Our local county show had no photographer this year - and competitors are outraged! 

I actually think that event photography is coming to the end of it's day.  Though many of us enjoy what we do (not always my feeling at the end of a long day, heading into an all nighter of editing), we do have to eat.  

Perhaps when there are only the hobbyists with their entry level DSLR's taking the shots (through hail, rain and heatwave), some people will miss us.  We will certainly be missed for Facebook  . I know that I am glad that my walls are still lined with photos of my competition days.


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## honetpot (26 June 2014)

I am an ex pony club Mum with now two grown up daughters, I have boxes of photos purchased over the years at local shows and some bigger ones, they are all lovely and the girls look pretty good to. So I have a few hundred pounds invested in old technology sitting in boxes. In the old days you would show these pictures to any passing relative and I used to display them for the summer until Christmas cards replace them, then they went in the box. The only time I ever thought of copyright is when I used to sell a pony and I would ask the photographer when the photo was taken, all were great and just wanted a credit. The cost of these photos was factored in to the day out, like the burger van a treat.
 Years have passed and I show only young stock and I can honestly say that I have not bought a picture for years as all the photos have been abysmal, when you have a camera that can shoot continuously and you can not get one descent shot there is something wrong. I would love to buy a picture but I refuse to buy something substandard. Then if I have bought one when the norm is to send photos digitally I can only keep it in its virtual box. Facebook now is the equivalent of you mantelpiece, or wall in you lounge just bigger, mostly picture are only really looked at by people that know you and if I buy a picture I want the right to put it on my mantelpiece, I am not making money from it. My friend daughters has just got married and the photos are on Facebook, that is now normal practice. If her wedding photographer started chasing her about copyright they would get a really bad reputation.
  If the photographer is chasing the 5% of people who do not pay and lift pictures, its doubtful the culprits would have bought a picture anyway and many are young who have a culture of sharing everything, yes its not acceptable but why make the rest of your potential market feel dirty and have to justify looking at your proofs. I am not clued up enough about jpegs etc but I do know teenage girls and if you can provide an easily accessible product on the day (preferably with bling) that can only be provided by you that is were your money is. I watched tourists having their picture taken at London Bridge, from the photo being taken to them leaving about 20mins they had the keepsake of their choice teatowel, mug etc., heavens knows what the mark up is.
  I have been the burger van at shows and festivals and you have to know your market and what they can afford to spend, I paid insurance pitch fee, staff equipment ..... It not the customers fault if they can not afford you product and if they do not want your product you have to change it. Moaning about how much you have spent for your pitch is not your customers problem and you should factor in the 5% that do not pay and provide a product they will pay for.


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## Tnavas (26 June 2014)

Pity you have to pay to have a stand at the show - come and work in New Zealand - we invite you to attend at no charge


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## eqaction (27 June 2014)

honetpot said:



			. 
when you have a camera that can shoot continuously and you can not get one descent shot there is something wrong.
		
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Shooting continuously is the most likely reason to miss "the shot".  My background was with film photography - I still shoot the same way. 




			My friend daughters has just got married and the photos are on Facebook, that is now normal practice. If her wedding photographer started chasing her about copyright they would get a really bad reputation.
		
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Wedding photographers are paid BEFORE the wedding.
..............



			If the photographer is chasing the 5% of people who do not pay and lift pictures, its doubtful the culprits would have bought a picture anyway and many are young who have a culture of sharing everything, yes its not acceptable but why make the rest of your potential market feel dirty and have to justify looking at your proofs.
		
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 Are you therefore saying that it should be acceptable for people to steal because it's the culture?  Would the same culture be applied to any form of theft?  Nobody is trying to make the rest of their potential market feel dirty, but why on earth should photographers feel that after a long day's work they should just put up with theft - and shut up about it.  Most people would be upset if they were not paid for their work. For many of us full time professional photographers, this is our job, I find it difficult to understand why we see why we should be the ones who should accept non payment.  We have to pay our staff.  

It is naive to think this copyright theft is only being carried out by young people. Only this month I have found one of our images being used on the website of a large manufacturing company.  




			I am not clued up enough about jpegs etc but I do know teenage girls and if you can provide an easily accessible product on the day (preferably with bling) that can only be provided by you that is were your money is. I watched tourists having their picture taken at London Bridge, from the photo being taken to them leaving about 20mins they had the keepsake of their choice teatowel, mug etc., heavens knows what the mark up is.
.............
		
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Event photographers normally stand all day taking photos at a fast pace. Camera cards are returned to the computer staff at the end of each class. Photos are then uploaded and sorted by competitor.  For some bigger events this might mean 10,000-15,000 images.  It is not quite the same as shooting selected customers at London Bridge.  





			I have been the burger van at shows and festivals and you have to know your market and what they can afford to spend, I paid insurance pitch fee, staff equipment ..... It not the customers fault if they can not afford you product and if they do not want your product you have to change it. Moaning about how much you have spent for your pitch is not your customers problem and you should factor in the 5% that do not pay and provide a product they will pay for.
		
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Where does the 5% figure come from?  Nobody is "moaning" about what is paid for the pitch, it is stating a fact.  Many competitors do not realise that we too have high overheads. What on earth is wrong with pointing that out. 

As I have stated, we offer low res instant downloads for less than £5. The person that posts illegal copies boasts at how they can be screengrabbed when their friend says "Cool, how did you copy the picture".  The next post is their holiday in New York!  And they couldn't afford the £5.   A horse is for sale at 10,000  - the seller can't afford the £5 either?   

Nobody is stating that all competitors should buy photographs, but if you like it enough to steal it for Facebook or to sell your horse, then please do not be surprised if the photographer gets upset.  

Surely it is better that photographers have the odd gripe on a forum rather than actually enforce the legal options open to them? The awards for copyright infringement are steep. 

I think the reason that photographers point out the cost of equipment, insurance etc. is because their is often the attitude that it costs nothing to take a photograph!  Nikon and Canon are also very reluctant to drop their prices because we should fit in with what the customer wants to steal.


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## Casey76 (27 June 2014)

I haven't read the whole thread, but some of it.

In my area of France it is rare for online versions of the photos to be available.  The photographer (or assitant  ) will print the photo on the day, and the photos are usually between 5 and 10&#8364; each for A5 size.  It can mean queues at the photography booth, but it does mean you can have your photo within an hour or so of the class ending.


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