# Obese horses in showing



## Tiddlypom (10 October 2017)

The showing fraternity seem to make all the right noises about tackling the problem of obese horses in the show ring.

This is the HOYS 2017 maxicob champion. 













Way to go.


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## only_me (10 October 2017)

Wow. He&#8217;s also owned by Baileys Horse feeds. 

Nice horse though, even under the flab!


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## JFTDWS (10 October 2017)

Terrifying, isn't it?


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## Rowreach (10 October 2017)

only_me said:



			Wow. He&#8217;s also owned by Baileys Horse feeds. 

Nice horse though, even under the flab!
		
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Not enough bone for a maxi cob I wouldn't have thought?  Put him on a diet and he would be more hunter type.

Or he perhaps has plenty of bone but is SO huge it's making his legs look skinny.

Poor horse looks like he is going to burst


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## cobgoblin (10 October 2017)

Jeez!...it's like a Mortadella on legs!


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## ElliePippa (10 October 2017)

Same horse at same show


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## ihatework (10 October 2017)

JFTD said:



			Terrifying, isn't it? 

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But but but .... they are just muscled right? Us non showing peeps have no idea just how to fitten and condition a show horse right?

I agree. Terrifying.


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## Tiddlypom (10 October 2017)

Rowreach said:



			Not enough bone for a maxi cob I wouldn't have thought?  Put him on a diet and he would be more hunter type.
		
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That was my take on it, too. A very nice horse, but not a maxicob. You'd expect a HOYS judge to see straight through that attempt at deception by blubber, though, wouldn't you.




			Poor horse looks like he is going to burst  

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Doesn't he just.

He's not a very good advert for Bailey Horse Feeds either, their nutritionists must be mortified.


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## ester (10 October 2017)

I've seen another pic of him stood up in the car park and thought he looked better than under the lights too. I'm still not sure it is really a cob though.


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## Rowreach (10 October 2017)

ester said:



			I've seen another pic of him stood up in the car park and thought he looked better than under the lights too. I'm still not sure it is really a cob though.
		
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Was that the one doing the rounds on Facebook last night? I thought he looked pretty gross in that too if it was the same one


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## ester (10 October 2017)

I don't know, I did say looked better, not great , it's gone from where I saw it. Though it was also being compared to a picture of him clearly taking a step back so super scrunched up.


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## iknowmyvalue (10 October 2017)

My Henry was originally bred and bought/sold as a maxi cob by a well known, high level show producer. Most of you will have seen photos of him, and he is definitely not a maxi cob when he's a healthy weight! This chap would probably be a similar build if he were to lose the chub...


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## Dancing_Diva (10 October 2017)

I commented on this photo when it was posted on facebook by a magazine. Its disgusting, and a welfare issues! Ive known owners prosecuted due to obese horses and this is no different but nothing will ever change because its owned by the people it is and is in show condition not fat!!

The photo I commented on which had lynn Russel tagged in recieved so mush bad comments it was removed in the end. 

Its not right, I worked for a lady whos show hunter was like this! I left, only to find out a year later after seven severe attacks of lami he was PTS


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## Doris68 (10 October 2017)

The horse is obscenely over-weight and not pleasing on the eye!! This is so hypocritical - how can an obese horse be placed, let alone win!??  It's quite shocking.


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## Equi (10 October 2017)

Said that as soon as I saw him too. Doesn't look like enough bone to me either.


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## Elf On A Shelf (10 October 2017)

Oh but now come on you lot! You should all know better than that! It's not the horse that did the winning it was the face on top!

ETA - it got marks of 47/50 and 47/50. There were 2 others with the same ride but lower conf and 2 others with the same conf but lower ride.


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## cobgoblin (10 October 2017)

EKW said:



			Oh but now come on you lot! You should all know better than that! It's not the horse that did the winning it was the face on top!
		
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It's true, but as that's the case why did they have to half kill the horse with food...oh, hang on! They wouldn't have had a cob.


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## Elf On A Shelf (10 October 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			It's true, but as that's the case why did they have to half kill the horse with food...oh, hang on! They wouldn't have had a cob.
		
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Exactly! It would have been a bad hunter!


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## jnb (10 October 2017)

I took that photo   - the first one  
Just saying


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## Elf On A Shelf (10 October 2017)

This is Hallmark - 6 times HOYS Cob winner in either heavy or maxi over the years. Fed on Bailey's but with a different producer.







Some difference!

Starry Night - another 6x HOYS winner including the Maxi Cobs


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## Crugeran Celt (10 October 2017)

Poor horse is very overweight but not unusual even in small shows you see very fat horses in the ridden cob classes.  Sad and gives a very poor message to people who want to show.  The effort it would take to get a horse like that fit and muscular is obviously to much so piling it with food to get the bulk would be quicker and less work it would seem. Also worryingly is how many obe, two and three year olds are extremely mature in the show ring.


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## Tiddlypom (10 October 2017)

jnb said:



			I took that photo   - the first one  
Just saying 

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Hope you didn't mind me lifting it from FB ? It's too late for me to edit the OP to give you the tog's credit.


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## rowan666 (10 October 2017)

Rowreach said:



			Not enough bone for a maxi cob I wouldn't have thought?  Put him on a diet and he would be more hunter type.

Or he perhaps has plenty of bone but is SO huge it's making his legs look skinny.

Poor horse looks like he is going to burst  

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^^ couldn't agree more!


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## lozloz1 (10 October 2017)

iknowmyvalue said:



			My Henry was originally bred and bought/sold as a maxi cob by a well known, high level show producer. Most of you will have seen photos of him, and he is definitely not a maxi cob when he's a healthy weight! This chap would probably be a similar build if he were to lose the chub...
		
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Have you got any comparison pics please? It would be interesting to see the difference


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## ester (10 October 2017)

There are some much lovelier actual cobs about EKW, but I do wonder, I could understand your argument at qualifiers but surely at HOYS it is all names on top?

Who were the other 4 horses out of interest, would be nice to have a look at them.


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## Elf On A Shelf (10 October 2017)

ester said:



			There are some much lovelier actual cobs about EKW, but I do wonder, I could understand your argument at qualifiers but surely at HOYS it is all names on top?

Who were the other 4 horses out of interest, would be nice to have a look at them.
		
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It's majority names at HOYS but not 100%. A truly lovely wee black cob went Supreme at the Caledonian Championships the other week. She was a nice weight but fit as a fiddle underneath, moved for absolute fun! The pics I put on of previous champions were more for weight comparison - neither as as heavy as this years champion.


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## ester (10 October 2017)

Ah no sorry I meant who were the the four that had same confo/less ride and vice versa against this. 

I am just interested to see if this genuinely was the best of the bunch, because it didn't need to be put up just because they felt they had to pick a name, as there would have been a few names to pick from.


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## Elf On A Shelf (10 October 2017)

47/47 - Jovian - Lynn Russell
47/45 - Miramax - Ian Smeeth
45/47 - The Ringmaster - Hayley Sankey
48/43 - Brookdale Limited Edition - Danielle Heath
46/43 - Lord Alexander - Elizabeth Bury
42/45 - Cantarra Shadow Play - Avril Bartolemy - this horse has a TB sire and a Percheon Dam.

So 1 other on equal conf scores. A few on ride, not a lot between them and I was looking at last years scores first time around! #Muppet! What is interesting is the class is split in 2. The first half do ride while the others strip then they swop. One section got consistantly lower scores but a good few marks so I am guessing that was amatuer hour lol!


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## ester (10 October 2017)

thanks  *tottles off to nosey.


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## only_me (10 October 2017)

Rowreach said:



			Not enough bone for a maxi cob I wouldn't have thought?  Put him on a diet and he would be more hunter type.

Or he perhaps has plenty of bone but is SO huge it's making his legs look skinny.

Poor horse looks like he is going to burst  

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I think without the flab he would probably be a maxi still, I think the sheer size of his body is making his legs look teeny weeny. Hard to guess bone, and not helped by the rotundnuss. 

I can&#8217;t believe he&#8217;s owned by a feed company, not a great advertisement.


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## ester (10 October 2017)

well he is a maxi on height alone, whether he is a cob or not I think is the question. He is an ID, I've certainly seen more of them as hunters..


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## iknowmyvalue (10 October 2017)

lozloz1 said:



			Have you got any comparison pics please? It would be interesting to see the difference
		
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As a 4yo, hogged and advertised as a maxi cob











As a 6yo, second photo is not great, but it was a ridden hunter class where the judge loved him and we would have won (had he not refused to trot in hand  )


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## ester (10 October 2017)

I think advertising him as a maxicob was somewhat wishful thinking!


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## only_me (10 October 2017)

ester said:



			well he is a maxi on height alone, whether he is a cob or not I think is the question. He is an ID, I've certainly seen more of them as hunters..
		
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True, I&#8217;d also see ID as hunters, but the head looks more cobbish imo. 
He is very like the Cappa stud RIDs, which are proper traditional RID, and they are very deep in body. But they have less bone than the one in this pic? The cappa RIDs are stunning!

Not sure he&#8217;d fit into a HW hunter class either, my guess is that he was between classes and they thought let&#8217;s fatten him up to make him more Cobby


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## iknowmyvalue (10 October 2017)

ester said:



			I think advertising him as a maxicob was somewhat wishful thinking!
		
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So do I! Especially considering he was only 15.3hh at 4! But the seller has ridden at HOYS and sells/produces a lot of show cobs so you'd think he'd know what he was doing...


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## Rowreach (10 October 2017)

ester said:



			well he is a maxi on height alone, whether he is a cob or not I think is the question. He is an ID, I've certainly seen more of them as hunters..
		
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Exactly.


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## ester (10 October 2017)

Yes I suspect he was between too onlyme, 

iknowmyvalue, maybe, but they also know where the money is.


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## Rowreach (10 October 2017)

If you look at those pics of Hallmark and Starry Night that EKW posted, and imagine them with a lot more blubber on them, they would still look like they had enough bone imo


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## Mrs B (10 October 2017)

Hands up: I know nothing about showing except what I have observed over the years.

I know there are good folk on here who show with their animals' best interests and health at heart and I have no problem with that BUT ....

... but ...


 ... it seems to me that overall, the nature of it is that a 'desirable trait' is seized upon and in too many cases is taken to the extreme in order to win. And damn the life of the poor animals bred to conform to the latest idea of 'perfection'. Which are then used to 'breed the misery in' when they win a bit of ribbon and silver. 

So, you get obese, under-boned horses, sloped-backed Alsatians, spindly-legged Siamese, brachycephalic dogs and cats who can't take a deep breath or live a normal life but Hell! do they look cute ... 

'Did you see that gorgeous pug, Frank, in 'Men in Black'? I want one!'  That film started a whole cycle of misery in many areas for puppy-farmed Franks. 

Although, it's not really the film's fault: you can't cure the wilfully stupid.

It gets exacerbated by anthropomorphism when it filters down to the 'accessory' pet-owners ... so tiny dogs appear dressed up and carried around in handbags. They can be bought as cheaply and carelessly as the handbags they're carried in, then are often abandoned as if they were just another unwanted thing to be recycled.  

You get cats bred with genetic disabilities who can't walk properly, but hey! It's fine if their breed certificate says 'Munchkin'. 

I have no problem at all in breeding for desirable health, strength, job-worthiness and longevity of species but simply to conform to a written manmade 'beauty-pageant' list which compromises an animal's health and lifespan can be as cruel as neglect.

End of rant


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## Goldenstar (10 October 2017)

I think he's like Fatty ( who was a maxi cob in his youth ) he's a Irish draught hunter with an unfortunate large head we got 200 kilos off fatty


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## conniegirl (10 October 2017)

iknowmyvalue said:



			So do I! Especially considering he was only 15.3hh at 4! But the seller has ridden at HOYS and sells/produces a lot of show cobs so you'd think he'd know what he was doing...
		
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The minimum height for a maxi cob is 15.1hh. Some of the best maxi cobs are not much over 15.2hh. Certainly when they start getting to 16.2hh you tend to lose type significantly


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## only_me (10 October 2017)

Mrs B said:



			Hands up: I know nothing about showing except what I have observed over the years.

I know there are good folk on here who show with their animals' best interests and health at heart and I have no problem with that BUT ....

... but ...


 ... it seems to me that overall, the nature of it is that a 'desirable trait' is seized upon and in too many cases is taken to the extreme in order to win. And damn the life of the poor animals bred to conform to the latest idea of 'perfection'. Which are then used to 'breed the misery in' when they win a bit of ribbon and silver. 

So, you get obese, under-boned horses, sloped-backed Alsatians, spindly-legged Siamese, brachycephalic dogs and cats who can't take a deep breath or live a normal life but Hell! do they look cute ... 

'Did you see that gorgeous pug, Frank, in 'Men in Black'? I want one!'  That film started a whole cycle of misery in many areas for puppy-farmed Franks. 

Although, it's not really the film's fault: you can't cure the wilfully stupid.

It gets exacerbated by anthropomorphism when it filters down to the 'accessory' pet-owners ... so tiny dogs appear dressed up and carried around in handbags. They can be bought as cheaply and carelessly as the handbags they're carried in, then are often abandoned as if they were just another unwanted thing to be recycled.  

You get cats bred with genetic disabilities who can't walk properly, but hey! It's fine if their breed certificate says 'Munchkin'. 

I have no problem at all in breeding for desirable health, strength, job-worthiness and longevity of species but simply to conform to a written manmade 'beauty-pageant' list which compromises an animal's health and lifespan can be as cruel as neglect.

End of rant 

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Huh? 
This horse is no doubt well bred and probably has good confo, but we are talking about the fact that this horse is seriously overweight (obese), not about poor breeding. 

It&#8217;s the obesity not the breeding we&#8217;re annoyed at! The horse is probably very well bred and well built, just far far too fat, but still purposeful.


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## Nativelover (10 October 2017)

This is a long term trend in all aspects of showing, my experience is with natives and I'm sure like cobs there is a difficulty in keeping them fit and not fat. Sadly with showing, people try to imitate winners to attain success themselves. If fat ponies win, people will emulate that in order to win themselves. Indeed some judges are guilty of encouraging obesity, I've been told a number of times my horse needed more 'condition'. Those same judges placing obese animals at the top of the line.

The only way to change this, is to penalise obesity as a conformation fault, place them down the line.

Funny really how we comment on fat/obese humans but talk of obese horses as in show condition. Though if an emaciated horse was shown in the ring, it would be a welfare scandal, obesity is as much of a welfare issue but widely accepted.


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## Mrs B (10 October 2017)

only_me said:



			Huh? 
This horse is no doubt well bred and probably has good confo, but we are talking about the fact that this horse is seriously overweight (obese), not about poor breeding. 

It&#8217;s the obesity not the breeding we&#8217;re annoyed at! The horse is probably very well bred and well built, just far far too fat, but still purposeful.
		
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Umm .. I realise that. That's why I mentioned obese. But to me it also has legs too thin to take that excess weight. My point is that people continue to use winners to breed more of the same. And even if the winner's neutered, they will look to replicate what won to the detriment of the animals they subsequently breed.


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## only_me (10 October 2017)

Mrs B said:



			Umm .. I realise that. That's why I mentioned obese. But to me it also has legs too thin to take that excess weight. My point is that people continue to use winners to breed more of the same. And even if the winner's neutered, they will look to replicate what won to the detriment of the animals they subsequently breed.
		
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But the weight is a modifiable factor, whereas bone isn&#8217;t. So if the weight was off the chances are the legs will match to the body!

You can&#8217;t breed a fat horse!


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## ester (10 October 2017)

While I am thankful that we do at least not show like the US does I think my main concern that while they might get away with it in the short term I wonder how much consideration is being give to the long term health of these usually young horses or whether they are just setting them up to be metabolic in the future.

but of the shows I have been to this year with HOYS qualifiers etc I have seen very few beasts including cobs that I would be concerned about, which surprised me as I was prepared to be concerned!


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## JFTDWS (10 October 2017)

only_me said:



			You can&#8217;t breed a fat horse!
		
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You can breed animals which are more efficient at converting energy to body mass though...  And being chronically overweight throughout life will cause epigenetic changes which may affect obesity in subsequent generations.

I'm not sure it's a huge concern for horse showing really, but I do agree with MrsB's sentiments about pedigree dogs.


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## Widgeon (10 October 2017)

OH says "How did it win - did it eat all the other horses?"


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## Dave's Mam (10 October 2017)

Widgeon said:



			OH says "How did it win - did it eat all the other horses?"
		
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Hahahahahahaha!


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## cobgoblin (10 October 2017)

I just showed the pic of the grey to OH....who has zero interest in horse showing.

He said..what's that?

Winner of HOYS maxi cob.

He said....but that's not a cob!


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## Bernster (10 October 2017)

Astonishing. The only good thing that might come out of this is the backlash in response!  Lovely horse under that blubber, what a shame.


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## holeymoley (10 October 2017)

Ive just asked non horsey husband too and he says 'fat' . 

Shame really, I'm surprised the poor soul made it round the arena


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## dominobrown (10 October 2017)

Mrs b- your comments could refer to Arab showimg though. 
One top arab stallion had a  nose job....


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## scats (11 October 2017)

I can't help but feel that if it shed a rather significant amount of weight, it would make a very smart hunter.


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## tristar (11 October 2017)

steroids?


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## Llanveynoe'sLast (11 October 2017)

Just had a look at the top few. Most pretty fat. Must say I do like the 4th placed horse though, Brookdale Limited Edition. Too fat maybe, but so broad through the chest and proper leg in each corner. Lovely model.


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## Elf On A Shelf (11 October 2017)

tristar said:



			steroids?
		
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Nah just feed. Too much of a risk if you get caught with steroids.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (11 October 2017)

dominobrown said:



			Mrs b- your comments could refer to Arab showimg though. 
One top arab stallion had a  nose job....
		
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A nose job?!?!   Wow... To make a more pronounced dished appearance I assume?


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## Meowy Catkin (11 October 2017)

Which horse? The only plastic surgery scandal I know of is the David Boggs one. That did not include a nose job. Specifics below. 




			Based upon the Findings set forth sbove, the following penalty is imposed pursuant to Rule 13 of Article 308 and Rule 8 of Article 307 of the IAHA Code: 

David C. Boggs is suspended from International Arabian Horse Association membership for a period of five (5) years commencing September 15, 1999. This suspension from IAHA membership includes a denial of all IAHA membership privileges and a prohibition of involvement in and attendance at any and all IAHA events, including recognized shows. 

Furthermore, David C. Boggs will be on probation for an additional five (5) year period commencing September 15, 2004. Any further violation of the IAHA Rules of Conduct will result in the above-mentioned penalty being extended an additional five (5) years up to September 15, 2009. 


Van P. Jacobsen, Chair 
Ethical Practice Review Board

David Boggs was convicted of:

1. Participating in the cosmetic surgery of ACE OF BEY to correct a wry tail.
2. Participating in the removal of fat from the croup of HAFATI ELEGANCE. 
3. Participating in the removal of fat from the croup of NOBELL PRIZE.
4. Participating in a skin cosmetic surgery on RSD DARK VICTORY. (Skin revision on the neck)
5. Participating in the tattooing of the eye of BEY SERENADE.
6. Participating in the tattooing of the eye of BW BALANA.
7. Participating in the unnecessary cosmetic throatlatch surgery of FAMES SECRET LOVE.

David Boggs was exonerated of:

1. Participating in any unnecessary cosmetic surgeries on MAGNUM PSYCHE, TAKEMY BREATH AWAY, BHF STING, CAYMANA BEY, SHAHS LOVE SONG.
		
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## Merrymoles (11 October 2017)

Ready to be shot down by those more knowledgeable than me but I've just looked at the H&H gallery of winners and the Percheron which won the heavy horse title looks the picture of fitness for a big heavy lad. Not everyone's cup of tea I am sure but fits much more with my idea of what a winner should be.

ETA link  http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/feat...1_XHH-X_NWL_EO&utm_medium=email&utm_source=ET


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## ester (11 October 2017)

He is, but I think I would consider a percheron, or any of the heavies a very different sort of animal to a the absolute squareness of a cob, can't be letting them get too wide you'd have no hope of a saddle fitting! He is also most canadian which is interesting.  I saw a big class at three counties and at equifest and most were in fine fettle, I was impressed with the hip mobility of the the rider of a the suffolk punch at equifest though!


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## Elf On A Shelf (11 October 2017)

moleskinsmum said:



			Ready to be shot down by those more knowledgeable than me but I've just looked at the H&H gallery of winners and the Percheron which won the heavy horse title looks the picture of fitness for a big heavy lad. Not everyone's cup of tea I am sure but fits much more with my idea of what a winner should be.

ETA link  http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/feat...1_XHH-X_NWL_EO&utm_medium=email&utm_source=ET

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I would have liked to have seen a little bit more gut about him but he is clearly fit and well and more than upto the job!


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## dominobrown (11 October 2017)

Faracat said:



			Which horse? The only plastic surgery scandal I know of is the David Boggs one. That did not include a nose job. Specifics below.
		
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Giving horses tatoos is mad enough!
It was an american stallion of the padron line. 

What people do to their animals to win a show is astonishing and quite horrific!


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## Meowy Catkin (11 October 2017)

Are you thinking of Magnum Psyche (by Padrons Psyche)? He's mentioned in the report I posted and it was a 'cribbing' operation on his throat that he supposedly had.

I'm not saying that anything that Boggs did was OK. IMO it was vile and I would have handed him a lifetime ban from showing if it was up to me. I would hope that the punishment would be stiffer if it had happened here, rather than in the US (the rules for turnout are much stricter here than they are there for example you are not allowd to remove tactile hairs here http://www.wessexahg.org/sites/all/files/uploaded-docs/2017 AHS RULES FOR SHOWING.pdf see section 15).

I hadn't heard of a nose job and was just wondering if I had missed it, but thankfully I think it's confusion about the Boggs case and didn't actually happen.


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## conniegirl (11 October 2017)

dominobrown said:



			Giving horses tatoos is mad enough!
It was an american stallion of the padron line. 

What people do to their animals to win a show is astonishing and quite horrific!
		
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Depends on the reason for the tattoo. Some horses have very sensative pink skin round thier eyes etc and it has been shown that by tattooing it the risk of sunburn etc is drastically reduced. Quite often in the US particularly it is done under vet instruction.
I cant see why you would do it for any other reason though.


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## Meowy Catkin (11 October 2017)

I don't have any further detail as that was the best reliable information that I could find. Of course there is a lot of speculation out there. However I will say that the charge is specifically 'tattooing of the eye' and not 'tattooing of the eyelid'. My suspicion is that that phrase could refer to colouring a white sclera.


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## Casey76 (11 October 2017)

Faracat said:



			I don't have any further detail as that was the best reliable information that I could find. Of course there is a lot of speculation out there. However I will say that the charge is specifically 'tattooing of the eye' and not 'tattooing of the eyelid'. My suspicion is that that phrase could refer to colouring a white sclera.
		
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Or modifying a blue inclusion in the iris...


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## JFTDWS (11 October 2017)

moleskinsmum said:



			Ready to be shot down by those more knowledgeable than me but I've just looked at the H&H gallery of winners and the Percheron which won the heavy horse title looks the picture of fitness for a big heavy lad. Not everyone's cup of tea I am sure but fits much more with my idea of what a winner should be.

ETA link  http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/feat...1_XHH-X_NWL_EO&utm_medium=email&utm_source=ET

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He looks like an absolutely cracking horse to me, and incredibly fit and up to a job!


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## Merrymoles (11 October 2017)

JFTD said:



			He looks like an absolutely cracking horse to me, and incredibly fit and up to a job!
		
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Ah but I know that like me, you like chunky monkeys who are fit and up to a job,  although I suspect yours are fitter than mine but he's still fit enough to do everything I ask! I was more thinking of those that like finer types.

But agreed that he looks cracking!


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## rallan15 (11 October 2017)

I was watching that and I have no idea why the judges picked him tbh


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## JFTDWS (11 October 2017)

moleskinsmum said:



			Ah but I know that like me, you like chunky monkeys who are fit and up to a job,  although I suspect yours are fitter than mine but he's still fit enough to do everything I ask! I was more thinking of those that like finer types.

But agreed that he looks cracking!
		
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Haha well I do try to keep mine fit and within some semblance of "normal horse shape" rather than resembling a block of wobbly lard 

I just wanted to say how super I thought the percheron looks, because it's such a refreshing change!


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## conniegirl (11 October 2017)

Faracat said:



			I don't have any further detail as that was the best reliable information that I could find. Of course there is a lot of speculation out there. However I will say that the charge is specifically 'tattooing of the eye' and not 'tattooing of the eyelid'. My suspicion is that that phrase could refer to colouring a white sclera.
		
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EWWWW makes me cringe just thinking about it!
Tattooing of the eye itself is horrific!


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## Meowy Catkin (11 October 2017)

Casey76 said:



			Or modifying a blue inclusion in the iris...
		
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Could be.



conniegirl said:



			EWWWW makes me cringe just thinking about it!
Tattooing of the eye itself is horrific!
		
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It makes me cringe too. I have a feeling that people have been blinded/had their sight damaged by the process, but I'm not going to google to check, incase gory pics come up.


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## dominobrown (11 October 2017)

Faracat said:



			Are you thinking of Magnum Psyche (by Padrons Psyche)? He's mentioned in the report I posted and it was a 'cribbing' operation on his throat that he supposedly had.

I'm not saying that anything that Boggs did was OK. IMO it was vile and I would have handed him a lifetime ban from showing if it was up to me. I would hope that the punishment would be stiffer if it had happened here, rather than in the US (the rules for turnout are much stricter here than they are there for example you are not allowd to remove tactile hairs here http://www.wessexahg.org/sites/all/files/uploaded-docs/2017 AHS RULES FOR SHOWING.pdf see section 15).

I hadn't heard of a nose job and was just wondering if I had missed it, but thankfully I think it's confusion about the Boggs case and didn't actually happen.
		
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Sorry faracat- I haveheard this from several Arab breeders. I do know the stallions name, don't know if anyone was officially caught for it. Its happened in America. I don't want to name the stallion, as the people involved where never stopped. I know Padron is a common line now, and Padron Pysche's stock are everywhere, and have very nice heads, naturally it would seem.


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## Meowy Catkin (11 October 2017)

You could PM me the name. I'm very sad to hear that it happened. It's shocking.


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## dominobrown (11 October 2017)

I actually dont like a lot of the american and egyptian in hand arabs. They are too extreme, you could never get a saddle on one! And most arabs need extra dentist visits because of the extreme dish. You dont see it as much with old english and crabbet but the breed is going the same way as dog breeding


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## nikicb (11 October 2017)

dominobrown said:



			Sorry faracat- I haveheard this from several Arab breeders. I do know the stallions name, don't know if anyone was officially caught for it. Its happened in America. I don't want to name the stallion, as the people involved where never stopped. I know Padron is a common line now, and Padron Pysche's stock are everywhere, and have very nice heads, naturally it would seem.
		
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I haven't seen anything about this particular story, but there was something floating around Facebook the other day about a stud with Arabs that have been bred, bred and bred some more to have seahorse faces.  I have no idea whether the pictures were photoshopped, but if they were true, they were quite grotesque.


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## Pinkvboots (11 October 2017)

I love Arabs and have 2 one of mine is 13 years old and when he was a younger he was classed as very typey as his very dished but he has a leg in each corner that dont look like they would snap at any time, his substantially built and is the most comfiest horse to ride, he looks nothing like a lot of the Arabs that are bred today some of there heads are so extreme even I don't like them they look deformed, a lot of them have awful spindley legs and no where to put a saddle it's such a shame because they really do make good riding horses but I fear many would not stand up to much work and that's if you could get a saddle to fit


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## dominobrown (11 October 2017)

There are almost different breeds- endrance type, racing type, ridden show type and in hand type. 
Pinkvboots- yours sounds nice, they should have a good chest and be stronger than they look.


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## Pinkvboots (11 October 2017)

dominobrown said:



			There are almost different breeds- endrance type, racing type, ridden show type and in hand type. 
Pinkvboots- yours sounds nice, they should have a good chest and be stronger than they look.
		
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thank you  I have had quite nice coments from judges about them and not Arab judges so they can't be to bad I mainly do ridden showing with them now.

Going back to the original thread I have seen quite a few Arab horse judges put horses down the line for being to overweight, I have heard them telling the owners that they were put down the line for that reason so I think it seems to be more accepted with certain types and breeds within the showing world.


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## nikicb (11 October 2017)

Pinkvboots said:



			I love Arabs and have 2 one of mine is 13 years old and when he was a younger he was classed as very typey as his very dished but he has a leg in each corner that dont look like they would snap at any time, his substantially built and is the most comfiest horse to ride, he looks nothing like a lot of the Arabs that are bred today some of there heads are so extreme even I don't like them they look deformed, a lot of them have awful spindley legs and no where to put a saddle it's such a shame because they really do make good riding horses but I fear many would not stand up to much work and that's if you could get a saddle to fit

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I was certainly not criticising Arabs.  I have two PBAs and incidentally went to the Arab Associated BD Championships last weekend and placed 6th in our class which I am delighted with.  I was purely commenting on the in-breeding that seems to go on.


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## Pinkvboots (11 October 2017)

nikicb said:



			I was certainly not criticising Arabs.  I have two PBAs and incidentally went to the Arab Associated BD Championships last weekend and placed 6th in our class which I am delighted with.  I was purely commenting on the in-breeding that seems to go on.
		
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oh I know it's fine I wasn't directing it at anyone in particular just adding my view on things

well done ! do you just do dressage with yours?


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## nikicb (11 October 2017)

Pinkvboots said:



			oh I know it's fine I wasn't directing it at anyone in particular just adding my view on things

well done ! do you just do dressage with yours?
		
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Thank you, yes we do dressage, but she looks more Welsh than Arab, her other genetics include Appaloosa, so a bit of a mixed bag really.  She is a drama llama though, so perhaps the Arab shines through.    x


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## Pinkvboots (11 October 2017)

nikicb said:



			Thank you, yes we do dressage, but she looks more Welsh than Arab, her other genetics include Appaloosa, so a bit of a mixed bag really.  She is a drama llama though, so perhaps the Arab shines through.    x
		
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that sounds an interesting cross, I have just had a look at the Arab dressage I didn't even realise they did this, apparently you only have to score over 60% 3 times to qualify for the champs I might consider doing it next year, where are the championships held?


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## nikicb (11 October 2017)

Pinkvboots said:



			that sounds an interesting cross, I have just had a look at the Arab dressage I didn't even realise they did this, apparently you only have to score over 60% 3 times to qualify for the champs I might consider doing it next year, where are the championships held?
		
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They are at Solihull.  It was a lovely occasion, very well run.  You also have to be a member of the AHS as well.  There weren't loads in the classes but they were competitive and it was definitely worth doing.  We scored 65% in the prelim (and it was championship style with more than one judge and flowers/banners etc.) so a reasonable standard.

Link to one of our photos.....  https://www.topshots.org.uk/Gallery/#/Image/59d92dc39f24ed15fa22a043/59d92dc49f24ed15fa22a07a


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## AdorableAlice (11 October 2017)

All of Miss Russell's horses look like that grey.  At HOY's they can get away with it.  The ring is miniscule and the horses can go down the long side in a dozen strides.  That horse wouldn't get half way round the big rings of the much missed Royal Show or Yorkshire.

It is perfectly possible to get a show horse fit, my horse galloped weekly when he was showing 2005 to 2010 and got round all the big rings easily without breaking sweat.  Show condition is hard muscle on a horse with perfect conformation and it is work that puts a top on a horse.

I have followed the cob classes this year due to helping out with transport for a show cob this summer.  The cob was fed like a beef bullock and was unable to lengthen the canter let alone gallop.  Watching the classes I realised how many differing types were turned out as cobs.  Of course cob is a type not a breed, and the variety was immense.  Small hunters fattened up because they lacked quality to be a true small, common coloured vanners shaved bald and schooled in the hope to hide bone shaking paces, small ID's bulked up and big ponies hogged and fed to bursting point.  At Addington there was even a warmblood complete with brand, hogged and fattened up.  

So what is a show cob ?  For me Our Cashel Blue stands out in quality and his way of going is superb.


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## Elf On A Shelf (11 October 2017)

AA it's amazing what types people think are cobs so just fatten them up as much as possible to make them 'look right'. It would be much the same as me stripping down a Shetland putting it in a show pony class!


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## ester (11 October 2017)

AA do you think that has been more of an issue (differing types) with the maxis or for the weight classes too?


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## cymbeline (11 October 2017)

I don't really like the term 'maxi cob'. It sounds contrived, a class for horses that don't seem to fit into other categories. Very few of these are true-to-type cobs in the pure sense of the term. Most lack bone & good depth of thigh. Some have fairly upright shoulders and overly-thick necks. And the heads are just too large for a cob. Where is the quality? Look at pictures of Grandstand, Superted etc and you will see there is little in common with these chunky, hogged Irish Draughts that seem to dominate the showing world at the moment.


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## OldNag (12 October 2017)

Very sad really. I thought things were changing, but when a severely overweight horse like that can win at a top level show, it makes me despair.


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## BBP (12 October 2017)

I have to admit I have emailed Baileys to express my disappointment that they, as the owner of the horse and ultimately responsible for its welfare, are unable or unwilling to address its obesity with the producer. I wouldn't be able to recommend a feed company or nutritionist hotline to anyone if it allows its  own horses to be fattened up like they are being prepared for slaughter.


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## Amymay (12 October 2017)

Good for you Kat. It will be interesting to hear what their response is.


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## YasandCrystal (12 October 2017)

JFTD said:



			Terrifying, isn't it? 

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It certainly is!! poor horse.


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## Tiddlypom (12 October 2017)

amymay said:



			Good for you Kat. It will be interesting to hear what their response is.
		
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Seconded. You've prompted me to do the same.

I had a quick look on the Bailey's website to see if they offer yard visits to advise on nutrition, like some other companies do, bringing a portable weighbridge with them to weigh the neds. I didn't see Baileys offering this service, just a telephone advice line. Anyone know if they do yard visits? Was wondering what they'd advise re feed and management if they were confronted with Jovian in the flesh in his current condition, if he belonged to a low level rider.


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## ihatework (12 October 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Seconded. You've prompted me to do the same.

I had a quick look on the Bailey's website to see if they offer yard visits to advise on nutrition, like some other companies do, bringing a portable weighbridge with them to weigh the neds. I didn't see Baileys offering this service, just a telephone advice line. Anyone know if they do yard visits? Was wondering what they'd advise re feed and management if they were confronted with Jovian in the flesh in his current condition, if he belonged to a low level rider.
		
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They do - they used to do a livery yard I was on. But I never used the services so didn't overhear what the advice was.

Baileys should be embarrassed to have that horse associated with them in that condition


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## ycbm (12 October 2017)

No comment needed.


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## Amye (12 October 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Seconded. You've prompted me to do the same.

I had a quick look on the Bailey's website to see if they offer yard visits to advise on nutrition, like some other companies do, bringing a portable weighbridge with them to weigh the neds. I didn't see Baileys offering this service, just a telephone advice line. Anyone know if they do yard visits? Was wondering what they'd advise re feed and management if they were confronted with Jovian in the flesh in his current condition, if he belonged to a low level rider.
		
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They do do yard visits - we had one in August. And they give you a little booklet with the advice they've given and all their feeds.
They told me my boy was slightly overweight and I needed to shift it. Which, yes, I think they were right as he had put on some summer weight. However, J was nowhere near looking like that so I think it's slightly ironic considering they're associated with this horse!


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## meleeka (12 October 2017)

If you google the horse (still cant work out how to post pictures!) there are a lots of photos, some of which he doesnt look so fat in.  Some of these are a few years old, so I wonder if the fashion has changed somewhat. If fat horses werent winning, they wouldnt be allowed to get like that.


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## ester (12 October 2017)

Realistically I think it is more that he has just got older, much harder to get a 4yo to look like that (I think he is 6?)


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## tallyho! (12 October 2017)

Wow. Last time I commented on a fat showing horse in HHO I was thoroughly shot down.


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## GirlFriday (12 October 2017)

Good on WHW for highlighting the issue too (not showing specifically, although clearly both inappropriate horse and rider weights are common there, but in general: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/riders-horses-weight-major-silent-welfare-issue-634620)

I was pretty shocked that even the Arabian looked porky - I mean I know there are other horrid things (not least the exaggerated breeding) that happen to showing Arabians but adding fatness is hardly a step in the right direction!

But it isn't just showing - apparently De Nero was PTS due to laminitus. Which one sort of hopes was due to management rather than genetic issues as, although sad for the individual horse, better not to think how much lami-prone genetic material he would be responsible for otherwise.


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## tallyho! (12 October 2017)

GirlFriday said:



			Good on WHW for highlighting the issue too (not showing specifically, although clearly both inappropriate horse and rider weights are common there, but in general: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/riders-horses-weight-major-silent-welfare-issue-634620)

I was pretty shocked that even the Arabian looked porky - I mean I know there are other horrid things (not least the exaggerated breeding) that happen to showing Arabians but adding fatness is hardly a step in the right direction!

But it isn't just showing - apparently De Nero was PTS due to laminitus. Which one sort of hopes was due to management rather than genetic issues as, although sad for the individual horse, better not to think how much lami-prone genetic material he would be responsible for otherwise.
		
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I have just read that link... did you see the one below about riders deemed to be o/w were pulled off the horse? I think they should also go one step further and pull rider off an o/w horse no matter the rider size.

Will things change? I suppose it could if enough people spoke up.


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## QuantockHills (12 October 2017)

ycbm said:















No comment needed.
		
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Spot on!


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## GirlFriday (12 October 2017)

tallyho! said:



			I have just read that link... did you see the one below about riders deemed to be o/w were pulled off the horse? I think they should also go one step further and pull rider off an o/w horse no matter the rider size.

Will things change? I suppose it could if enough people spoke up.
		
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What a good idea - there are certainly circs where a rider would be asked to remove a lame horse from the ring (or at the very least it would go to the bottom in showing, no?). Applying the same to an obese one would be a great start - perhaps excluding anything at either end of the condition scores would be a good start.


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## tallyho! (12 October 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			All of Miss Russell's horses look like that grey.
		
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Mmm - hmmm. *nods quietly in agreement*


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## JFTDWS (12 October 2017)

ihatework said:



			They do - they used to do a livery yard I was on. But I never used the services so didn't overhear what the advice was.

Baileys should be embarrassed to have that horse associated with them in that condition
		
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They condition scored Fergus as a 5.5 and Dae as a 6 at the end of last summer.  These are the closest images I have to that time.  So if both of these are on the boundary of overweight / slightly overweight (which, to be fair, they are - F is very muscular, but chunky, Dae is a bit wobbly), what the devil is that horse?!

Fergus:






Dae:


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## conniegirl (12 October 2017)

GirlFriday said:



			But it isn't just showing - apparently De Nero was PTS due to laminitus. Which one sort of hopes was due to management rather than genetic issues as, although sad for the individual horse, better not to think how much lami-prone genetic material he would be responsible for otherwise.
		
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Lami is not always caused by horses being fat! it can also be caused by trauma to the feet (cantering on roads as in the case of the cavalry horses recently), by medication (prednisole, any steroids or some pain killers) or by stress (one thing to watch carefully for after any surgery)! 

Ive had a 38 yr old pony go down with Lami, we had been struggling to keep weight on him at all and he was still far too skinny to be seen in public, he had never had lami in the 25 years we owned him and in those 25 years he had been enormously fat at some points. It was because he was on steroids to reduce the size of a tumor growing above his eye.


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## GirlFriday (12 October 2017)

^ To ConnieGirl - yes, agreed. But no other illness or injury was mentioned and he was presumably not cantering on roads. He had apparently had on-going lami issues for some time.


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## ihatework (12 October 2017)

GirlFriday said:



			^ To ConnieGirl - yes, agreed. But no other illness or injury was mentioned and he was presumably not cantering on roads. He had apparently had on-going lami issues for some time.
		
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He was a 24yo. He probably had cushings.
I'm not sure how an aged sporthorse stallion getting put down relates to a 6yo obese cob?


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## only_me (12 October 2017)

GirlFriday said:



			^ To ConnieGirl - yes, agreed. But no other illness or injury was mentioned and he was presumably not cantering on roads. He had apparently had on-going lami issues for some time.
		
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I suspect it was probably more to do with multiple steroid injections over the years into his joints to help keep him sound. Very common to get done in dressage horses (any horse really with joint changes) and I suspect was most likely the factor here, increasing his risk of lami. Not necessarily an illness/injury but just ongoing condition.

Anyways, has baileys made a statement about this yet? Curious as for a feed company really not good publicity, unless you want your horse to gain weight lol


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## Amymay (12 October 2017)

No comment on FB, despite being asked for a comment.


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## GirlFriday (12 October 2017)

ihatework said:



			He was a 24yo. He probably had cushings.
I'm not sure how an aged sporthorse stallion getting put down relates to a 6yo obese cob?
		
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24 is not that old these days...

But probably not a great example. Was just trying to point out that it isn't just this one horse/type. I also mentioned that even the Arabian pretty fat too - number 10 here
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/21-hoys-showing-winners-may-not-seen-yet-634526

Not as bad as the 'cob' - but there are certainly others that you'd want to slim a little.


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## conniegirl (12 October 2017)

GirlFriday said:



			24 is not that old these days...
		
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24 is very old for a sports horse who has competed at GP level, normally thier joints give up well before then.


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## ester (12 October 2017)

GirlFriday said:



			24 is not that old these days...

But probably not a great example. Was just trying to point out that it isn't just this one horse/type. I also mentioned that even the Arabian pretty fat too - number 10 here
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/21-hoys-showing-winners-may-not-seen-yet-634526

Not as bad as the 'cob' - but there are certainly others that you'd want to slim a little.
		
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24 is plenty old enough for a horse to have metabolic issues not related to it's management in anyway!


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## ihatework (12 October 2017)

conniegirl said:



			24 is very old for a sports horse who has competed at GP level, normally thier joints give up well before then.
		
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And then spent X number of years as a breeding stallion, jumping onto a dummy on a frequent basis takes its toll! RIP De Niro, what an influential boy for dressage.


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## Micropony (12 October 2017)

ihatework said:



			And then spent X number of years as a breeding stallion, jumping onto a dummy on a frequent basis takes its toll! RIP De Niro, what an influential boy for dressage.
		
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Indeed. My first horse was by De Niro, and he was marvellous, splendid and wonderful. Had a number of issues, but being prone to lami wasn't one of them! Have known a few with De Niro in the breeding and none of them have been lami prone either. I was very sad to hear the news about him this morning, a bit of a legend. Not sure I am seeing the connection with obese maxicobs though...


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## sarahann1 (12 October 2017)

This is so sad, I genuinely thought progress was being made in the showing world with regards to weight, clearly not.

My wee cob mare recently got a body score of 7.5 and she doesn't look anywhere near that horse, he's in a whole new category surely?! I'm rubbish at embedding photos, but here's a link to a pic of my lass. https://www.instagram.com/p/BaJfzysnGOw/?hl=en
I'm thoroughly ashamed of how overweight she is, I didn't realise quite how bad she was and I'm working to address it.


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## OldNag (12 October 2017)

I would be very interested to know how much that "cob" actually weighs. Anyone care to hazard a guess?


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## lozloz1 (12 October 2017)

iknowmyvalue said:













As a 4yo, hogged and advertised as a maxi cob











As a 6yo, second photo is not great, but it was a ridden hunter class where the judge loved him and we would have won (had he not refused to trot in hand  )
		
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Thanks for doing this!


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## Chinchilla (12 October 2017)

I only read the first page (sorry) but surely it makes the judges work much harder, not to mention a fairer verdict less likely, as in really obese horses conformation is hard to properly judge surely? I imagine being so fat would surely hide myriad faults: we had a welsh a we were looking after who had a ewe neck and a really flat croup but she put on some weight and the ewe neck wasn't visible and her rump didn't resemble a table so much.


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## HBB (13 October 2017)

Have Baileys removed the post on their FB page? I can't find it anymore.


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## ester (13 October 2017)

yup, dealing with it superbly.


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## nikicb (13 October 2017)

ester said:



			yup, dealing with it superbly.
		
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Probably needs a repeat post.  Anyone else willing?  xx

https://www.facebook.com/BaileysHorseFeeds/posts/10159450854780322


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## Ambers Echo (13 October 2017)

So sad to see obesity being rewarded/celebrated in the maxicob class. We were there on Saturday night and the cobs in that class were all beautiful and none were overweight. Our Cashel Blue won it and he was stunning. Obesity really should be punished in the show ring not praised.


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## sarahann1 (13 October 2017)

There is still a picture in amongst this post, lots and lots of people defending the horse being the size it is. https://www.facebook.com/BaileysHorseFeeds/posts/10159431291465322


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## tallyho! (14 October 2017)

sarahann1 said:



			There is still a picture in amongst this post, lots and lots of people defending the horse being the size it is. https://www.facebook.com/BaileysHorseFeeds/posts/10159431291465322

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I think the defenders are mainly connections.


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## DabDab (14 October 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			All of Miss Russell's horses look like that grey.  At HOY's they can get away with it.  The ring is miniscule and the horses can go down the long side in a dozen strides.  That horse wouldn't get half way round the big rings of the much missed Royal Show or Yorkshire.

It is perfectly possible to get a show horse fit, my horse galloped weekly when he was showing 2005 to 2010 and got round all the big rings easily without breaking sweat.  Show condition is hard muscle on a horse with perfect conformation and it is work that puts a top on a horse.

I have followed the cob classes this year due to helping out with transport for a show cob this summer.  The cob was fed like a beef bullock and was unable to lengthen the canter let alone gallop.  Watching the classes I realised how many differing types were turned out as cobs.  Of course cob is a type not a breed, and the variety was immense.  Small hunters fattened up because they lacked quality to be a true small, common coloured vanners shaved bald and schooled in the hope to hide bone shaking paces, small ID's bulked up and big ponies hogged and fed to bursting point.  At Addington there was even a warmblood complete with brand, hogged and fattened up.  

So what is a show cob ?  For me Our Cashel Blue stands out in quality and his way of going is superb.
		
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You've hit the nail on the head as to the reasons are many are fat in this type class IMO.
I think a true Maxi cob is a pretty rare thing


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## Tiddlypom (14 October 2017)

Ironically, in this week's edition of H&H, which features pages of reports from HOYS, the following was published on the Letters page:-







It referred to the earlier letter below:-








And here's the thoughts of the judge and the winning rider in the maxicobs. Also, look at the judge's comment tucked away at the end of the report on the Arabs...


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## cobgoblin (14 October 2017)

" I had a slight doubt whether he would grow into a cob"... Ha ha ha ha!


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## tallyho! (14 October 2017)

ah the wonderful world of showing


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## Tiddlypom (14 October 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			" I had a slight doubt whether he would grow into a cob"... Ha ha ha ha!
		
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I may have had a slight snortfest with my ginless tonic with ice and slice of lime when I read that !!


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## Dave's Mam (14 October 2017)

I nearly spat my beer out when someone commented on FB on what it was being fed with "Chips"


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## Elf On A Shelf (14 October 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			" I had a slight doubt whether he would grow into a cob"... Ha ha ha ha!
		
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The woman is a complete and utter muppet!


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## Luci07 (14 October 2017)

Just to go back to an earlier comment about said horse not having a cobby head...Maxis don't necessarily have plain heads.  I looked into this quite a lot as a friends mare was going to try her hand at to level showing as a maxi. We assumed she would be too pretty (she has a stunning head) but were told we were wrong. Also had concerns she might be too light in her bone but again, told she was a maxi not a heavyweight. Mare has started her career and is doing really well (though sad to see her lovely mane go) but while with a semi pro, is no where near carrying that sort of condition.


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## GirlFriday (14 October 2017)

Delighted at the Arabian confo judge's comment - at least there is some sense in the showing world -and the Arabian bit at that! (I mentioned a few pages back that the winner looked porky to me - glad someone who will be listened to is saying it too!)


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## Chinchilla (14 October 2017)

Dave's Mam said:



			I nearly spat my beer out when someone commented on FB on what it was being fed with "Chips"
		
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You couldn't get something that fat feeding it JUST chips, poor luv'd starve on that little...it's probably more like fish, chips, and sunday dinner with all the trimmings... 
Sorry :lol:


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## ester (14 October 2017)

TBF if the arabian judge was disappointed in some of their condition you'd think she wouldn't put one she was disappointed by top?! I always find arabs difficult to tell, the one we had on loan had the biggest ribcage known to man and always looked fat but certainly wasn't during his time with us (he was not the best of types ). 

The second fattest for me from the pics is the LR SHP.


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## Meowy Catkin (14 October 2017)

I've seen Merv before and he is a very nice horse. It could be that his confo score and ride score were so far ahead, that even if docked a mark or two for being 'well covered' that he still came out on top?

Just a theory anyway. 

I do agree though Ester, if they have well sprung ribs they can look larger than they really are, but I'm sure that there were some fatties in the line up or the judge wouldn't have mentioned it.


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## brighteyes (15 October 2017)

Morbidly obese. And standard for show winners. Utter disgrace


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## Elf On A Shelf (15 October 2017)

brighteyes said:



			Morbidly obese. And standard for show winners. Utter disgrace
		
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Not standard actually! Fat yes but not as many are morbidly obese any more! Look at the Supreme at HOYS - Diamonds Are Forever!


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## brighteyes (15 October 2017)

No, it will still be overweight.


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## conniegirl (15 October 2017)

brighteyes said:



			No, it will still be overweight.
		
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How do you know if you won't look?
TBH attitudes like yours stink! yes there is a problem with over weight horses, no they are not all morbidly obese, stop tarring everyone with the same brush.

Actually I think Diamonds are forever was pretty spot on weight wise
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news...ts-first-ever-hoys-supreme-horse-title-634315


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## AdorableAlice (15 October 2017)

conniegirl said:



			How do you know if you won't look?
TBH attitudes like yours stink! yes there is a problem with over weight horses, no they are not all morbidly obese, stop tarring everyone with the same brush.

Actually I think Diamonds are forever was pretty spot on weight wise
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news...ts-first-ever-hoys-supreme-horse-title-634315

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The horse is fit, muscled and well.  The Hoods horses are always fit.  If you had to criticise the only obvious point is the angle of the curb.

The hunters RH and hacks all need to be toned to look the part in the show ring.  It is a very wrong concept to think a horse can be turned into a cob merely by topping it out with fat.  A table backed, loaded shouldered and fat crested horse with poor bone is not a cob.  There would be an end to these obese cobs if the shows reverted to massive rings and kept the horses on the move for more than half a lap.  How can a horse perform in a ring so small the gallop is a few steps.  Bring back the big rings, keep them cantering for 10 minutes, change the rein and gallop properly, I guarantee the fat cobs will be no more.

I have a maxi cob who has 11" bone and is very smart but not good enough to county show, she has done plenty of local level winning. She is normally fit and toned but looks massive due to her type (Clyde x RID), huge depth through the girth, crest and enormous back end.  No fat on shoulders or brisket and as long as she stays in work, her tummy is tight.  She is a pocket rocket with endless go when she is fit.  She won a class in May, which in confo terms she should have been 4th ish, but she gave a cracking ride and was the only one to gallop (it was a mixed class of LW/HW and maxi).  I spoke to the judge afterwards and he said the ride was so good he forgave her the slightly short pasterns and her windgall.  There were some nice cobs in the class but they wheezed and rolled their way around the ring under the judge.  Fair play to the judge on that day, I did admire his decision but it isn't something that would be seen at county level.


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## dominobrown (15 October 2017)

conniegirl said:



			How do you know if you won't look?
TBH attitudes like yours stink! yes there is a problem with over weight horses, no they are not all morbidly obese, stop tarring everyone with the same brush.

Actually I think Diamonds are forever was pretty spot on weight wise
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news...ts-first-ever-hoys-supreme-horse-title-634315

Click to expand...

Must admit that the supreme looks pretty much in perfect condition... loads of topline but toned and  no flab.


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## conniegirl (15 October 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			The horse is fit, muscled and well.  The Hoods horses are always fit.  If you had to criticise the only obvious point is the angle of the curb.

The hunters RH and hacks all need to be toned to look the part in the show ring.  It is a very wrong concept to think a horse can be turned into a cob merely by topping it out with fat.  A table backed, loaded shouldered and fat crested horse with poor bone is not a cob.  There would be an end to these obese cobs if the shows reverted to massive rings and kept the horses on the move for more than half a lap.  How can a horse perform in a ring so small the gallop is a few steps.  Bring back the big rings, keep them cantering for 10 minutes, change the rein and gallop properly, I guarantee the fat cobs will be no more.

I have a maxi cob who has 11" bone and is very smart but not good enough to county show, she has done plenty of local level winning. She is normally fit and toned but looks massive due to her type (Clyde x RID), huge depth through the girth, crest and enormous back end.  No fat on shoulders or brisket and as long as she stays in work, her tummy is tight.  She is a pocket rocket with endless go when she is fit.  She won a class in May, which in confo terms she should have been 4th ish, but she gave a cracking ride and was the only one to gallop (it was a mixed class of LW/HW and maxi).  I spoke to the judge afterwards and he said the ride was so good he forgave her the slightly short pasterns and her windgall.  There were some nice cobs in the class but they wheezed and rolled their way around the ring under the judge.  Fair play to the judge on that day, I did admire his decision but it isn't something that would be seen at county level.
		
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Oh I agree! My small hunter has a weight problem if you paint his stable green he puts on weight but he was fit, toned and more than capable of going round the biggest of rings (now unsound due to arthritis)


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## Elf On A Shelf (15 October 2017)

Looking through pictures the biting issue needs to be addressed aswell! Only a few small handful of ponies in the childrens lead Rein and first ridden classes were NOT in Wilkie's. And looking through the horse classes so many seem to have a Wilkie as a bridoon of a double with the rider holding the curb Rein much tighter that the snaffle Rein.  That's just a whole host of wrong! One show team seemed to have a wilkie in every single horses mouth that they had there!


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## tallyho! (15 October 2017)

EKW said:



			Looking through pictures the biting issue needs to be addressed aswell! Only a few small handful of ponies in the childrens lead Rein and first ridden classes were NOT in Wilkie's. And looking through the horse classes so many seem to have a Wilkie as a bridoon of a double with the rider holding the curb Rein much tighter that the snaffle Rein.  That's just a whole host of wrong! One show team seemed to have a wilkie in every single horses mouth that they had there!
		
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Must agree with you there EKW...


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## ester (15 October 2017)

I've never understood why they permit wilkies.


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## WelshD (15 October 2017)

This year's M&M first ridden and lead rein judge has a well known dim view on Wilkie's so there were a hell of a lot less wilkies in those classes this year, funny how so many people defended wilkies as essential previously yet presented ponies in plain snaffles this time!

Far more (normal levels) in the mini show pony classes though.


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## nikicb (15 October 2017)

Just as an fyi, I have deleted my post from FB.  All I and many others wanted, was a comment from Baileys.  They are clearly not going to respond.  The thread was beginning to turn very personal and nasty which was not my intention, and I just didn't really want to be associated with that sort of behaviour.  x


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## Amymay (15 October 2017)

nikicb said:



			Just as an fyi, I have deleted my post from FB.  All I and many others wanted, was a comment from Baileys.  They are clearly not going to respond.  The thread was beginning to turn very personal and nasty which was not my intention, and I just didn't really want to be associated with that sort of behaviour.  x
		
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Which was why the original post was deleted.


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## Clodagh (15 October 2017)

ester said:



			The second fattest for me from the pics is the LR SHP.
		
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I was surprised no one else bought that one up - perhaps under the flab it is not an SHP? Bizarre world!


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## windand rain (15 October 2017)

saddens me I show but it is a life long concern to keep my native ponies muscled but not fat. I watched a welsh d stallion being sold for 14,000 guineas a few years ago only to learn a few years later that they shot him due to laminitis He was beautiful would have been magnificent but he was fed to look like a beef bullock for the sales. My  aim when judging was to try to get fit not fat horses at the top of the line but got a lot of flack for it as I was out there on my own


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## Goldenstar (15 October 2017)

All I have to add is that I will never buy a Baileys product now.


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## nikicb (15 October 2017)

amymay said:



			Which was why the original post was deleted.
		
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I understand now.


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## Goldenstar (15 October 2017)

tristar said:



			steroids?
		
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No need to give a horse steroids to get it to look that .


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## tristar (15 October 2017)

about 25 years ago i was on a showing  yard one day when the owner said they going to  the vet call to give steroids to a show horse.


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## splash30 (15 October 2017)

Whilst I agree with the obese thread there is a also concern to me was the obviously lame horses behind being in the top 9.


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## rara007 (15 October 2017)

tristar said:



			about 25 years ago i was on a showing  yard one day when the owner said they going to  the vet call to give steroids to a show horse.
		
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Probably intra articular


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## Goldenstar (15 October 2017)

rara007 said:



			Probably intra articular
		
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Twenty five years ago ?


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## conniegirl (16 October 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			Twenty five years ago ?
		
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Yes, steroids into joint has been around For far far longer than that of the top of my head I think it was first approved in the early 1950s for use in people and animals shortly there after


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## tristar (16 October 2017)

was defo being used to `pump up the volume`


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