# AES - what's happening?



## Flyingbuck (3 April 2013)

Does anyone know what is happening with the AES? I have heard reports of there being 2 studbooks going by this name, but only one is a member of WBFSH  - but for how long will it be a member?

A bit disconcerting for those who have stallions graded with AES and also those who may have wished to use a stallion graded with the studbook.


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## Alec Swan (3 April 2013)

Have you thought to ask them?

Alec.


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## Rollin (3 April 2013)

I have a part bred CB registered with AES in France and have been told, this filly does not qualify for many competitions in France open to breeders.  I have written to Henk Mindermann but not had a reply to date.


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## shirleyno2 (3 April 2013)

I'd wait till the ugly man that is fanning the flames goes quiet and we get an official press release. Gossip can be dangerous and I believe this to be gossip, not denying there are changes afoot in house, there clearly is. But the ugly little man should spend more time photoshopping some crowds into his pictures and less time slandering the AES!!


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## Rollin (3 April 2013)

shirleyno2 said:



			I'd wait till the ugly man that is fanning the flames goes quiet and we get an official press release. Gossip can be dangerous and I believe this to be gossip, not denying there are changes afoot in house, there clearly is. But the ugly little man should spend more time photoshopping some crowds into his pictures and less time slandering the AES!!
		
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I hope the changes afoot will fly the flag for British breeding in France.  Plenty of EU horses imported into the UK.


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## JanetGeorge (3 April 2013)

shirleyno2 said:



			I'd wait till the ugly man that is fanning the flames goes quiet and we get an official press release.
		
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Funnily enough, I don't think this has anything to do with the person you're blaming!

http://horsesinternational.com/other/conflict-within-aes-goes-on/


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## no_no_nanette (4 April 2013)

It does seem, as Shirley says, that there's currently a mass of rumours flying around and no enlightenment at the moment about what's happening - as soon as things move into the legal system that tends to happen.  Let's hope that we get some clarity on all of this asap.  And who on earth is this nasty little man?  You are obviously in the know Janet - is this one of the rival Dutch contingent?  (I rejected my first suspicion as very definitely not falling into the "little" description!)


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## EPRider (4 April 2013)

I too am wondering who you are all talking about.  I know a lot of ugly men many of whom are like cocks on dung heaps.

I hope that the court case gets sorted out quickly as there will be this years coverings to finalise and foals to register.


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## cruiseline (4 April 2013)

As far as I am aware, it is business as usual in the AES office, so no need to panic or listen to the usual rumour monger. I will wait until the official press release comes out and take the facts from there.


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## Flyingbuck (4 April 2013)

I agree that mare owners should be able to access all pertinent information and that all the information  needs to be out there asap to allow informed decisions to be made re this year's coverings etc - the google translation of the following is not all that helpful either...

http://www.angloeuropeanstudbook.info/news.html#NEWS FLASH!

Might just be easier/safer to use stallions from other studbooks until this is finally sorted out.


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## ColourFan (4 April 2013)

Has anyone thought to contact the DEFRA and ask them who they recognise?   

I think this fact (recognition) will determine in which basket you should place your eggs (sorry leftover Easter feeling).

According to the Dutch press releases that party are 'owners' of the Anglo European Studbook ... although I do ask myself how one person can 'own' an international Studbook???
And that the British Chamber of Commerce also recognises their claim to the 'name' and 'company'.

It is all VERY VERY VERY confusing with both the kettle and the pot calling each other black.


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## cruiseline (4 April 2013)

Flyingbuck can I please ask what gives you the right to advise mare owners on this forum not to use an AES graded stallion, when you have absolutely no grounds on which to substantiate your comment.


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## shirleyno2 (4 April 2013)

Flyingbuck said:



			Might just be easier/safer to use stallions from other studbooks until this is finally sorted out.
		
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Ridiculous comment IMO. Graded stallions I'm sure will be fine. 
Please mare owners ignore any scaremongering by people with stallions with other studbooks!!

Most approved stallions can be dual registered anyway, registering with multiple studbooks is very straightforward, it's only throwing money at them!! Mine used to be dual registered but it seemed a waste of money!!


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## Flyingbuck (4 April 2013)

cruiseline said:



			Flyingbuck can I please ask what gives you the right to advise mare owners on this forum not to use an AES graded stallion, when you have absolutely no grounds on which to substantiate your comment.
		
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I am advising no one! I merely asked for information and have stated what I may do. Please try to read things properly if you are posting on this thread.


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## Flyingbuck (4 April 2013)

shirleyno2 said:



			Ridiculous comment IMO. Graded stallions I'm sure will be fine. 
Please mare owners ignore any scaremongering by people with stallions with other studbooks!!

Most approved stallions can be dual registered anyway, registering with multiple studbooks is very straightforward, it's only throwing money at them!! Mine used to be dual registered but it seemed a waste of money!!
		
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Not that ridiculous - what graded stallions are you commenting on? The public or privately graded or both?

IMO, if it is too difficult to find information from a studbook who do not answer emails etc and so that I am then obliged to contact DEFRA, Chamber of Commerce etc as has been suggested on here, then I'm afraid I will look elsewhere - I do not have the time...simple.


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## koeffee (4 April 2013)

Flyingbuck said:



			Not that ridiculous - what graded stallions are you commenting on? The public or privately graded or both?

Seems you have an agenda regards the above comment?? dont see the relevance to it and has nothing to do with current issues, have friends in low places maybe who part own stallions from other studbooks??
		
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## Flyingbuck (4 April 2013)

koeffee said:





Flyingbuck said:



			Not that ridiculous - what graded stallions are you commenting on? The public or privately graded or both?

Seems you have an agenda regards the above comment?? dont see the relevance to it and has nothing to do with current issues, have friends in low places maybe who part own stallions from other studbooks??
		
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I wondered how long it would be...dearie me. But not surprised!

My agenda is to access, collate and then use all the information that I consider relevant to make informed decisions and thereby choose the best stallions that I can afford who best compliment my mares, nothing more or less; moreover, I would assume that I am not the only mare owner doing this.

My comment was in response to a previous contributor who made a statement - I merely asked for clarification of their statement.
		
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## eventrider23 (4 April 2013)

DEFRA and the WBFSH recognise the AES that is registered here in the UK and so from that standing it is the correct book.

I think people need to stop panicking and wait for a public announcement which will I am sure come. If people hadn't dragged this up in order to fuel their own agendas then this whole thing would have been handled privately and no one would have felt any effects or known differently till management changes are announced.  Sadly instead there is this scaremongering going on. People need to just take a deep breath and hold fire till something is stated.


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## eventrider23 (4 April 2013)

Regards the gradings, public or private shouldn't matter. Both forms of gradings have been around for YEARS with pretty much all stud books and many have been graded in both ways. There is nothing unseemly about either method as people are being led to believe. I can name several big name stallions who were graded using both methods.


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## eventrider23 (4 April 2013)

Edit won't work so sorry for a 3rd comment....

Wanted to ad that if things go South and the foreign party is found to be truthful then yes no doubt the proverbial S$%&^ will hit the fan and there will be a lot of angry stallion and mare owners and questions to be answered.  But till there is an answer one way or another I just think we need to be patient for now.


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## Flyingbuck (4 April 2013)

eventrider23 said:



			Edit won't work so sorry for a 3rd comment....

Wanted to ad that if things go South and the foreign party is found to be truthful then yes no doubt the proverbial S$%&^ will hit the fan and there will be a lot of angry stallion and mare owners and questions to be answered.  But till there is an answer one way or another I just think we need to be patient for now.
		
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Thanks for the contribution(s) - these were just the very real worries that I had from the recent apparent anomalies within the AES studbook which have been circulating on-line - with no feedback from the studbook itself, it's more than very confusing as has been stated here earlier by others.

Unfortunately, re your point about the need to be patient, mare cycles will not wait and speaking only for myself, coverings for this season may well have to be from stallions graded elsewhere - I will, obviously, keep my eyes and ears open for any new information that may become available before I purchase semen.


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## nomis (4 April 2013)

Flyingbuck said:



			Thanks for the contribution(s) - these were just the very real worries that I had from the recent apparent anomalies within the AES studbook which have been circulating on-line - with no feedback from the studbook itself, it's more than very confusing as has been stated here earlier by others.

Unfortunately, re your point about the need to be patient, mare cycles will not wait and speaking only for myself, coverings for this season may well have to be from stallions graded elsewhere - I will, obviously, keep my eyes and ears open for any new information that may become available before I purchase semen.
		
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I have gone onto your website Flyingbuck and you have never used AES stallions, in fact all your stallions seem to be foreign, so why do you seem so bothered about what the AES are doing, unless of course you have ulterior motives and are just out to cause trouble for other breeders.

I also remember you being part of the Scottish Sports Horse (Chairman I believe), and they too have done private gradings in the past.


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## Flyingbuck (4 April 2013)

nomis said:



			I have gone onto your website Flyingbuck and you have never used AES stallions, in fact all your stallions seem to be foreign, so why do you seem so bothered about what the AES are doing, unless of course you have ulterior motives and are just out to cause trouble for other breeders.

I also remember you being part of the Scottish Sports Horse (Chairman I believe), and they too have done private gradings in the past.
		
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Not quite sure how you have managed that - only one year's worth of stallions used previously currently appear on my website!

Why are you interested in why I am bothered? What is your agenda? I have already stated mine.

I am bothered as there may be stallions currently graded who I may wish to use - or should I just reject all stallions currently graded with the AES without further consideration? Is that really good advice to give to a mare owner? No wonder British breeding can get itself in a pickle at times!

I am asking information for myself as already stated - what other mare owners wish to do is their affair.

Re the Scottish Sport Horse - I am unaware of any 'over the phone' gradings but I stand to be corrected if you have any knowledge to the contrary, or are you merely mud-slinging? (I wish, if that is the case, that you would do it elsewhere than on this thread). All public/private gradings conducted by the SSH, to the best of my knowledge and belief, were conducted by suitably qualified representatives from foreign studbooks.


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## no_no_nanette (4 April 2013)

Flyingbuck, just to ensure that everyone sticks to known facts, which seems really important in this atmosphere of rumour and counter-rumour - in this case the accusation of "over the phone" gradings.  The accusation that I came across recently made by an extremely vociferous individual about a particular stallion was absolutely untrue.  When I checked with the stallion owner they confirmed that a private grading was carried out at the end of a show as the timing was convenient for both the owner and AES personnel.  So if this crucial fact was misrepresented, you have to wonder what else has been?  I think that we all need to be really wary as a result, and particularly when supposed *facts* are proved to be anything but - and yet the publicising of the wrong information can severely damage businesses and the reputation of stallions.

The best advice for everyone at the moment is to hold fire, and as Alec suggests in an earlier post, if someone is stating something as a *fact* then don't take it on trust.  Whoever they are. Check it out!


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## nomis (4 April 2013)

Flyingbuck said:



			Not quite sure how you have managed that - only one year's worth of stallions used previously currently appear on my website!

Why are you interested in why I am bothered? What is your agenda? I have already stated mine.

I am bothered as there may be stallions currently graded who I may wish to use - or should I just reject all stallions currently graded with the AES without further consideration? Is that really good advice to give to a mare owner? No wonder British breeding can get itself in a pickle at times!

I am asking information for myself as already stated - what other mare owners wish to do is their affair.

Re the Scottish Sport Horse - I am unaware of any 'over the phone' gradings but I stand to be corrected if you have any knowledge to the contrary, or are you merely mud-slinging? (I wish, if that is the case, that you would do it elsewhere than on this thread). All public/private gradings conducted by the SSH, to the best of my knowledge and belief, were conducted by suitably qualified representatives from foreign studbooks.
		
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Agenda?  Flyingbuck if you have used any previous AES stallions which have you used?  Maybe to offset the balance of argument you would be willing to share this?  It is no consequence to me, but because of your vocal comments I thought it best to see what stallions you have used previously before posting, so I had facts.  From your website and Facebook page it is easy to deduce that its mostly stallions from Germany you have used.




			Might just be easier/safer to use stallions from other studbooks until this is finally sorted out.
		
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The above is your words not mine, so you have already made the decision to reject stallions with the AES? So what you have then said subsequently is really nonsense. i.e.




			or should I just reject all stallions currently graded with the AES without further consideration? Is that really good advice to give to a mare owner?
		
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			I am unaware of any 'over the phone' gradings but I stand to be corrected if you have any knowledge to the contrary, or are you merely mud-slinging?
		
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Put your glasses on and re-read what I said.  Where did I mention "over the phone gradings"?

Regarding "over the phone gradings" I am sure we would ALL be very interested for you to substantiate with evidence which stallions have had this done, since you seem to apparently know everything?


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## Flyingbuck (4 April 2013)

no_no_nanette said:



			Flyingbuck, just to ensure that everyone sticks to known facts, which seems really important in this atmosphere of rumour and counter-rumour - in this case the accusation of "over the phone" gradings.  The accusation that I came across recently made by an extremely vociferous individual about a particular stallion was absolutely untrue.  When I checked with the stallion owner they confirmed that a private grading was carried out at the end of a show as the timing was convenient for both the owner and AES personnel.  So if this crucial fact was misrepresented, you have to wonder what else has been?  I think that we all need to be really wary as a result, and particularly when supposed *facts* are proved to be anything but - and yet the publicising of the wrong information can severely damage businesses and the reputation of stallions.

The best advice for everyone at the moment is to hold fire, and as Alec suggests in an earlier post, if someone is stating something as a *fact* then don't take it on trust.  Whoever they are. Check it out!
		
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As a mare owner, what is important to me is that I can rely on the method of grading (whether private or public) of any studbook which is a member of the WBFSH to have been conducted in an appropriate fashion. 

If businesses and stallion reputations are indeed being compromised, then it is up to the owners of those businesses and stallions to seek redress through the usual channels as they see fit.

Once again, for those mare owners who, for varied reasons, like to cover early in the season as I do, holding fire and waiting may not be an option.

I totally agree with checking all the information provided - it is just that information has not always been forthcoming (don't take my word for it, others have had no reply to emails as evidenced earlier in this thread).


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## eventrider23 (4 April 2013)

Flyingbuck said:



			others have had no reply to emails as evidenced earlier in this thread).
		
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What about phoning??? If people need answers then surely phoning would be an option.  I know two people who had concerns and so rang the AES yesterday....both got answered straight away and had answers to their questions.  One person is a mare owner and one person owns a stallion.


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## Flyingbuck (4 April 2013)

nomis said:



			I have gone onto your website Flyingbuck and you have never used AES stallions,
		
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Your words! Now you want to change your statement, lol!

Ignored!


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## Flyingbuck (4 April 2013)

eventrider23 said:



			What about phoning??? If people need answers then surely phoning would be an option.  I know two people who had concerns and so rang the AES yesterday....both got answered straight away and had answers to their questions.  One person is a mare owner and one person owns a stallion.
		
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I would agree that would appear an easy solution - but I would far rather have the response in writing just in case your prediction comes true.


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## nomis (4 April 2013)

Flyingbuck said:



			Your words! Now you want to change your statement, lol!

Ignored!
		
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Please humour me, what statement have I changed?  I merely said that going on your website and Facebook page that you have never used a graded AES stallion.  If I am wrong then I cannot see why you do not state which AES stallions you have used previously?

As stated previously what EVIDENCE have you got to substantiate your claims of "over the phone gradings", you have still not answered this question?  By posting this claim you are indeed libelling the Studbook in question (on a public forum) if you have no evidence to support this.





			As a mare owner, what is important to me is that I can rely on the method of grading (whether private or public) of any studbook which is a member of the WBFSH to have been conducted in an appropriate fashion. 

If businesses and stallion reputations are indeed being compromised, then it is up to the owners of those businesses and stallions to seek redress through the usual channels as they see fit.
		
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IMHO the people who are compromising the reputations of businesses and stallions are the likes of yourself, who has clearly started this post with an intent of doing just that.

Instead of posting why do you not phone the AES as suggested above, who I am sure will give you a statement.

For everyones information the Approved AES Studbook with the WBFSH is Henk Mindermans one - http://www.wbfsh.org/files/Members_November_22nd_2012.pdf


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## Flyingbuck (4 April 2013)

I would be happy to hear from anyone who has verifiable information on the AES studbook just as soon as it becomes available - here's hoping it won't be too long before we all know what is happening with the AES studbook - in the meantime, I will await a written reply to my emails from them.


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## Flyingbuck (4 April 2013)

Just been given this link - but it is 21 hours old now...

http://horsesinternational.com/breeding/situation-around-aes-still-hazy/


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## Diggory (4 April 2013)

Flyingbuck said:



			I would be happy to hear from anyone who has verifiable information on the AES studbook just as soon as it becomes available - here's hoping it won't be too long before we all know what is happening with the AES studbook - in the meantime, I will await a written reply to my emails from them.
		
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I think the key word here is "verifiable".  And as the only source of verifiable information is the AES, yes, you had better await a written reply, because I doubt there's much truth in a lot of what you've already been fed and what is already circulating elsewhere in the media.


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## Flyingbuck (4 April 2013)

Diggory said:



			I think the key word here is "verifiable".  And as the only source of verifiable information is the AES, yes, you had better await a written reply, because I doubt there's much truth in a lot of what you've already been fed and what is already circulating elsewhere in the media.
		
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You seem to have overlooked the fact that there are currently two claimants to the AES studbook, and according to the link above, the Chamber of Commerce is more likely to favour Kees van den Oetelaar as main shareholder and official owner.

How on earth mare owners are supposed to make decisions with all this going on beats me.


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## no_no_nanette (4 April 2013)

Flyingbuck said:



			You seem to have overlooked the fact that there are currently two claimants to the AES studbook, and according to the link above, the Chamber of Commerce is more likely to favour Kees van den Oetelaar as main shareholder and official owner.

How on earth mare owners are supposed to make decisions with all this going on beats me.
		
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You've made that point a number of times now.  I'm sure that you will have got it over loud and clear.  So any mare owners reading these posts will I hope make up their own minds and  be prepared to wait the few days that have been promised before an announcement is made.

If anyone has experienced delays recently in the issuing of passports we have not been amongst them.  Our application for a passport, and that of a friend of ours, were both turned around well within the 2 weeks specified by Defra.


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## ColourFan (4 April 2013)

1.  I rang the Defra this afternoon and it would seem they have no knowledge of any changes.  As usual they passed the buck and told me to email horse.passports etc to get an answer.

2.  The WBFSH list is dated November 2012 ... the trouble started December 2012 ... so this list is outdated.

3.  Re the Horseinternational link ... PLEASE consider the source!  I.e. Kees van den Oetelaer.
Also Chamber of Commerce deals with business name registration, not with 'content' of that business ... this does means that you can buy an empty business name.

Some points of interest:

- the Anglo European Studbook,  operated by mr. Henk Minderman, and  working under a covering company called 'Alternative Equine Services (Overseas)' owned by mr Geoffrey Glazzard. 
internet site:  www.angloeuropeanstudbook.info
Email: secretary@angloeuropeanstudbook.info 

- the Anglo European Studbook ltd,  operated by (among others) and owned by mr. Kees van den Oetelaar,  with no clean working organisation.
internet site until recently:  http://www.angloeuropeanstudbook.co.uk/
Email: info@angloeuropeanstudbook.co.uk 

Please note the difference in the name = ltd !!!!!

Both parties/sites are using the same post address:   
The Anglo European Studbook
 PO Box 630
 Haywards Heath
 West Sussex

They are using different Bank Accounts, one in the Netherlands and one in England.

The Dutch party is also working out under the AESBenelux title (www.AESBenelux.com) which also gives the postal address but different email:  http://www.aesbenelux.com/Contact/Stamboek.html

For information about Stallion Approvals etc you have to contact either the (Minderman) group = english telephone number OR for the Dutch group a Dutch telephone number.  All other Studbook enquiries are referred to the different email addresses.


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## Flyingbuck (4 April 2013)

no_no_nanette said:



			... wait the few days that have been promised before an announcement is made.
		
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A few days? Oh I missed that - thank you for that. I had envisaged months (or even longer) of court wrangling with what had been posted earlier.

Who has promised an announcement in a few days, then?


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## shirleyno2 (4 April 2013)

Flying*uck aka Keith Neilson, I think?? So nice to see you supporting British Breeding??

How about we hear Henk's side??
Re using AES stallions, I really cannot see a problem for mare owners, I'm fairly sure any dispute will be sorted by the time your foals are born in 2014 [even if you breed early Keith!!]
The dotinfo website is the one I have always used.
 I wouldn't trust the foreign guy further than i could kick him. I think you'll find a private grading in mainland Europe will cost nearer 3 grand. 
 I have several stallions graded with the AES, from registered to Approved [Including one that competed at LONDON 2012 so clearly a ***** one and another that just finished 12th in the MILLION dollar class in USA, so again clearly *****] I'm proud they were graded AES in the UK, now that is what BRITISH BREEDING should be about.


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## Rollin (4 April 2013)

Thank you Colour Fan.  I am dismayed that the only contact for AES in France is via Facebook not helpful for those of us who don't do facebook.


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## Flyingbuck (4 April 2013)

shirleyno2 said:



			I'd wait till the ugly man that is fanning the flames goes quiet and we get an official press release. Gossip can be dangerous and I believe this to be gossip, not denying there are changes afoot in house, there clearly is. But the ugly little man should spend more time photoshopping some crowds into his pictures and less time slandering the AES!!
		
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So you've now gone from waiting for an 'official' press release to promoting your own stallions and slagging off those who ask for information - nice touch no2!


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## wynter (4 April 2013)

I registered my filly that was born last year with AES france with out any problems  
They do have a email Rollin to contact them here


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## Pippin79 (4 April 2013)

How about we hear Henk's side??
Re using AES stallions, I really cannot see a problem for mare owners, I'm fairly sure any dispute will be sorted by the time your foals are born in 2014 [even if you breed early Keith!!]
The dotinfo website is the one I have always used.
 I wouldn't trust the foreign guy further than i could kick him. I think you'll find a private grading in mainland Europe will cost nearer 3 grand. 
 I have several stallions graded with the AES, from registered to Approved [Including one that competed at LONDON 2012 so clearly a ***** one and another that just finished 12th in the MILLION dollar class in USA, so again clearly *****] I'm proud they were graded AES in the UK, now that is what BRITISH BREEDING should be about.[/QUOTE]

Well said.  I don't often comment on here but a lot of what I've read online in the last couple of days has reminded me of a 16th century witch hunt, and the majority of it from people with their own agendas trying to put the frighteners on and hoping to divert a few mare owners in their direction.  Henk has done a tremendous amount for British breeding and brought us our first proper British studbook for jumpers - and regarding the comments about poor correspondence and delayed passports, personally I've always found the AES extremely efficient and have never had any problems. Surely the British breeding industry should pull together instead of trying to rip apart one of our main stud books.


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## eventrider23 (4 April 2013)

Slow at responding to emails they may be, however with passports I have ALWAYS found the service from the AES to be fabulous.  Both my foals passports last autumn came back within a week and a half of being sent off.  Likewise for everyone I know that sent passport applications in.


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## no_no_nanette (4 April 2013)

Pippin79 said:



			Well said.  I don't often comment on here but a lot of what I've read online in the last couple of days has reminded me of a 16th century witch hunt, and the majority of it from people with their own agendas trying to put the frighteners on and hoping to divert a few mare owners in their direction.  Henk has done a tremendous amount for British breeding and brought us our first proper British studbook for jumpers - and regarding the comments about poor correspondence and delayed passports, personally I've always found the AES extremely efficient and have never had any problems. Surely the British breeding industry should pull together instead of trying to rip apart one of our main stud books.

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Exactly


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## Diggory (4 April 2013)

Flyingbuck said:



			So you've now gone from waiting for an 'official' press release to promoting your own stallions and slagging off those who ask for information - nice touch no2!
		
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Keith, did you mean to be so rude?  What a shame if you did 

Shirley wasn't promoting her own stallions - she gave the sketchiest detail and no names and mentioned merely to support her comments and indicate the high regard in which she holds the AES.  Plenty of people would have to look the details up to know which ones she was talking about - that's hardly promotional if your potential clients have to do the donkey work just to know the stallions' names! 

It would also help if you could quote for the rest of us where you read her slagging off those who ask for information.  Thank you.


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## jaynec (4 April 2013)

I agree, very happy with how quickly my geldings passport was turned around!


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## Spring Feather (4 April 2013)

I have absolutely no knowledge of the AES or their workings (I'm in a different country/Continent to you guys) but I do breed to German stallions and my mares are approved with a few of the North American branches of the German Verbands.  When I breed my mares, if the stallion isn't on the roster for the registry I wish to register the foals with, all I do is either pay the initiation fee to have him put onto that years stallion roster or some registries have a reciprocal arrangement whereby if the stallion is licenced with one of the big registries, the others will accept him too, and once again all I pay as mare owner is the cost to have him reinstated for that year of breeding.  Aren't mare owners allowed to do that in the UK?  It all seems a lot of palaver over nothing to me, but as I say, I know nowt about AES.


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## Truly (4 April 2013)

The two stallions Shirley is accused of promoting...if I've guessed right ? ..are not hers now, so can hardly have been for her benefit but was to show the AES does World Class horses registered here in the UK by the AES


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## shirleyno2 (4 April 2013)

Flyingbuck said:



			So you've now gone from waiting for an 'official' press release to promoting your own stallions and slagging off those who ask for information - nice touch no2!
		
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LOL Keith, absolutely, categorically not. Ask anyone you like to call about using those two stallions, you will all be told the same, I am not selling the semen. Full Stop. End Of. That's right, I'm keeping it all for my own mares, cos the AES graded two World class stallions there!!
 And I don't believe I have slagged off anyone??? Could you tell me who!

I've had a top night out and I will eagerly be awaiting more news!!!!!!!


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## shirleyno2 (4 April 2013)

I did actually say to one lady if her mare was an International grade A with any International grade A progeny, I'd sell her a dose!!!!!!


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## Flyingbuck (5 April 2013)

shirleyno2 said:



			How about we hear Henk's side??
		
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At the risk of repeating myself, no2, I am happy to hear from anyone who has verifiable information as already stated.


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## Flyingbuck (5 April 2013)

shirleyno2 said:



			I have several stallions graded with the AES, from registered to Approved [Including one that competed at LONDON 2012 so clearly a ***** one and another that just finished 12th in the MILLION dollar class in USA, so again clearly *****]
		
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Have or had, no2?


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## Flyingbuck (5 April 2013)

Truly said:



			The two stallions Shirley is accused of promoting...if I've guessed right ? ..are not hers now, so can hardly have been for her benefit but was to show the AES does World Class horses registered here in the UK by the AES 

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Really? So the one that was 12th is not owned by Brendon Stud nor is he being offered frozen semen to approved mares via her website?


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## cruiseline (5 April 2013)

So from what I have understood from your posts flyingbuck, you have never used an AES graded stallion, so you will not have any foals to register this year and you are going to go elsewhere to look for sires of your 2014 foals. So why are you even bothered about what is going on, unless your motive is to scaremongering of course.


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## koeffee (5 April 2013)

Flyingbuck you are just out to cause a bit of trouble, nothing helpful to British breeding other than slagging it off, we have enough ego maniacs in the horse world. You have added nothing to this post at all.


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## nomis (5 April 2013)

koeffee said:



			You have added nothing to this post at all.
		
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Koeffee, looking back through this users posts, I doubt he has ever added anything constructive to any post on HHO!

He has proved that he has NEVER used the AES, never used an AES graded stallion, nor is likely to.  All he wants to do is cause trouble. SIMPLE!


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## Pendragon (5 April 2013)

I think there will be no problems with AES stallion that were graded before February 2013. I am sure there will be a compromise or some form of solution to find, which AES society is in charge.
A real problem and a terrible situation is presently made for the stallion owners that had their stallions graded from February 2013 onwards. The articles tell us of 2 gradings, I know that there was at least one more grading done in Germany on 16 March. The situation is not clear as one AES does accuse the other AES of not being in charge and that this or that grading is not valid. This is awful for the stallion owners that participated in these gradings. I feel with them and hope that everything will be solved asap.


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## shirleyno2 (5 April 2013)

Flyingbuck said:



			Really? So the one that was 12th is not owned by Brendon Stud nor is he being offered frozen semen to approved mares via her website?
		
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PMSL, I'd be the first to admit my website is not always upto date!!! 
Just so we're straight Keith, you are talking about DON VHP Z yes?? He was sold last summer, so you really are out of date!! And I can promise you his frozen is NOT for sale, it is all MINE!!!!! Not even International showjumpers can get it off me!! [Same with the other one!!]
You chose to miss my point that the AES had graded these International Superstars, creditable stallions with a creditable studbook and I look forwards to their progeny sending AES further up the world rankings!


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## cruiseline (5 April 2013)

Just more evidence that flyingbuck is willing to post misleading information regarding subjects he has no idea about on public forums.


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## Flyingbuck (5 April 2013)

shirleyno2 said:



			PMSL, I'd be the first to admit my website is not always upto date!!! 
Just so we're straight Keith, you are talking about DON VHP Z yes?? He was sold last summer, so you really are out of date!! And I can promise you his frozen is NOT for sale, it is all MINE!!!!! Not even International showjumpers can get it off me!! [Same with the other one!!]
You chose to miss my point that the AES had graded these International Superstars, creditable stallions with a creditable studbook and I look forwards to their progeny sending AES further up the world rankings!
		
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LOL! Not only is your website out of date, but you clearly stated that you have AES stallions which include the one who was 12th - when to be totally accurate, you now state you had this stallion until last summer - so clearly detail is seemingly not your strong point - good to know


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## Flyingbuck (5 April 2013)

cruiseline said:



			Just more evidence that flyingbuck is willing to post misleading information regarding subjects he has no idea about on public forums.
		
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You're still apparently slandering?


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## Flyingbuck (5 April 2013)

Pendragon said:



			I think there will be no problems with AES stallion that were graded before February 2013. I am sure there will be a compromise or some form of solution to find, which AES society is in charge.
A real problem and a terrible situation is presently made for the stallion owners that had their stallions graded from February 2013 onwards. The articles tell us of 2 gradings, I know that there was at least one more grading done in Germany on 16 March. The situation is not clear as one AES does accuse the other AES of not being in charge and that this or that grading is not valid. This is awful for the stallion owners that participated in these gradings. I feel with them and hope that everything will be solved asap.
		
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It is a mess and should not have been allowed to happen.

The point I am now wondering about...if the name of Anglo European Studbook is owned by the party overseas and the party in the UK does not own that name, what will be the studbook name on the passports issued by the UK party?


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## cruiseline (5 April 2013)

No slander there unlike most of your contributions to this thread. I am simply reading through your comments as anyone else looking at this thread is able to do.


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## Flyingbuck (5 April 2013)

cruiseline said:



			No slander there unlike most of your contributions to this thread. I am simply reading through your comments as anyone else looking at this thread is able to do.
		
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In that case explain where I have misled?


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## cruiseline (5 April 2013)

I am at a competition at the moment Flyingbuck therefore on my mobile. As soon as I am able to get on my laptop I will duly ablige.


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## no_no_nanette (5 April 2013)

Flyingbuck said:



			LOL! Not only is your website out of date, but you clearly stated that you have AES stallions which include the one who was 12th - when to be totally accurate, you now state you had this stallion until last summer - so clearly detail is seemingly not your strong point - good to know 

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 ???? I think that Shirley was completely clear and has been in all her subsequent posts, and I'm amazed at how good natured she has remained given the character of your posts.  With an enviable record as one of the top breeders of SJers in the UK who is enormously respected by people in the industry and has done much to promote the cause of British breeding I think her views carry rather more weight.  And with each posting your aim becomes more transparent - as people have said above, the objective is very obviously not to inform but just cause trouble.  I think that the best thing to do with this thread is to let it, and you, sink to the bottom of the page.  The more that you attempt to move it up again, the more obvious your real purpose will be.  When there is real news to post, rather than just rumour,  I'm absolutely confident that a responsible member of this forum will do so.


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## Flyingbuck (5 April 2013)

Thanks to all for messages of support - much appreciated 

And, lol, I too agree - the more the troops are rallied to make personal attacks on me in some sort of futile attempt at smokescreen, the more the current AES problems intrigue one!

Save the personal attacks on me - I have a thick skin.

If you have any verifiable information on the current problems besetting the AES, I'd be pleased if you would share on this thread.


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## nomis (5 April 2013)

Flyingbuck said:



			In that case explain where I have misled?
		
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Ermmmm......"over the phone gradings".  As I have asked twice before WHERE IS YOUR PROOF??  We are all VERY intrigued to see your evidence?  You are the ONLY person on this thread to have mentioned this.  Without proof it is libel in the eyes of the law.




*LIBEL * - to publish in print (including pictures), writing or broadcast through radio, television or film, an untruth about another which will do harm to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others
		
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Before you come onto public forums I suggest you make sure that all the facts you have put in black and white are correct, otherwise you are opening yourself up to legal action.




			Thanks to all for messages of support - much appreciated 

And, lol, I too agree - the more the troops are rallied to make personal attacks on me in some sort of futile attempt at smokescreen, the more the current AES problems intrigue one!
		
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Firstly, how old are you?  Seriously?  That first sentence is like some kind of school child who is trying to prove that they actually do have friends. It sounds very desperate and pathetic really.

Personal attacks, please look at yourself on this matter.  There is no smokescreen.  As several people have said, go to the source to answer your questions (I will even make it easy and give you the telephone number - 01444 484840).  The fact you are not even doing this shows you have really no interest in finding out the truth, especially when you really are not worried about the AES because you have never used them nor ever will.


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## Flyingbuck (5 April 2013)

Flyingbuck said:



			Re the Scottish Sport Horse - I am unaware of any 'over the phone' gradings
		
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If you can't read, that's not my fault.

As I have previously stated, if anyone has verifiable information regarding the competing claims on the AES studbook, then please add them here - if you wish to hijack the thread, it won't happen as I won't respond - go start your own thread where you can follow your own agenda to your heart's content.

Please leave this thread for verifiable news relating to on-going AES problems.


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## elijahasgal (5 April 2013)

Shall we get this thread back on track and stop the nitpicking each others threads?
AES as set up by Henk, has several top class stallions.  Henk himself is a very straightforward and top class breeder himself, and has done a huge amount for british breeding.
January the KWPN announced that it would accept AES registered stallions, because of the position they now hold in WBF rankings. 
Febuary the mess kicks off.  Is it only me that sees any link there?  (Although I have also been told by someone very knowledgable of the politics that it may be a stratigic move to gain more votes and foal registrations by the KWPN)

Fact AES has some world class stallions on its listings.  
Fact AES is looked down on by many of the european breeders as they do not carry out mare gradings or foal inspections. Also the theory that they are easier to grade stallions with.
Fact the results are showing that the AES is climbing the rankings, so something must be right, even as far as accepting stallions on competition results.

So instead of this turning into a backbiting thread, can we please stick to the facts? Does anybody have any new factual information as to what is going on? Otherwise yes, some people are going to register elsewhere, and avoid using some top class AES stallions, and again kick a hole in UK breeding.  Surely in this climate we should all be supporting one another with our different aims (cause few breeders are in direct compatition with each other) and sharing knowledge to improve each others breeding, instead of trying to tear others apart.


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## Sportznight (5 April 2013)

Is everyone out of toys for hurling out of their prams yet?  Would it be possible to simply discuss the question at hand?  More than half of this thread is entirely irrelevant!


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## Flyingbuck (5 April 2013)

The sum total would appear to be that there is nothing new to add which can be verified at this point - we must just wait and watch as was stated a while back - it basically comes down to how long it will take to sort out - again speculation apparently at this point - the sooner it is sorted though, the better for mare and stallion owners alike.


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## ColourFan (5 April 2013)

elijahasgal said:



			Shall we get this thread back on track and stop the nitpicking each others threads?
AES as set up by Henk, has several top class stallions.  Henk himself is a very straightforward and top class breeder himself, and has done a huge amount for british breeding.
January the KWPN announced that it would accept AES registered stallions, because of the position they now hold in WBF rankings. 
Febuary the mess kicks off.  Is it only me that sees any link there?  (Although I have also been told by someone very knowledgable of the politics that it may be a stratigic move to gain more votes and foal registrations by the KWPN)

Fact AES has some world class stallions on its listings.  
Fact AES is looked down on by many of the european breeders as they do not carry out mare gradings or foal inspections. Also the theory that they are easier to grade stallions with.
Fact the results are showing that the AES is climbing the rankings, so something must be right, even as far as accepting stallions on competition results.

So instead of this turning into a backbiting thread, can we please stick to the facts? Does anybody have any new factual information as to what is going on? Otherwise yes, some people are going to register elsewhere, and avoid using some top class AES stallions, and again kick a hole in UK breeding.  Surely in this climate we should all be supporting one another with our different aims (cause few breeders are in direct compatition with each other) and sharing knowledge to improve each others breeding, instead of trying to tear others apart.
		
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Well said!

With respect to owning the name 'Anglo European Studbook' ... I have no idea but the company name 'Anglo European Studbook ltd' is in Dutch hands.   Again I stress 'ltd' !!

The three major stock owners of 'Anglo European Studbook ltd' are THE three MAJOR KWPN stallion owners in the Netherlands.  Believe me they have a vested interest in keeping the A.E.S. (which ever) alive in the Netherlands.


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## JanetGeorge (5 April 2013)

ColourFan said:



			Well said!

With respect to owning the name 'Anglo European Studbook' ... I have no idea but the company name 'Anglo European Studbook ltd' is in Dutch hands.   Again I stress 'ltd' !!

The three major stock owners of 'Anglo European Studbook ltd' are THE three MAJOR KWPN stallion owners in the Netherlands.  Believe me they have a vested interest in keeping the A.E.S. (which ever) alive in the Netherlands.
		
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And this is what THEY say (pardon the lousy translation - blame Google) - http://translate.google.com/transla...aesbenelux.com/Home.html&act=urlcom/Home.html


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## koeffee (5 April 2013)

At the end of the day until the truth comes out all everyone here is doing is believing one side without hearing the other, and making a judgement based on a dodgy translation, always two sides of a story, we will all when when we need too. Has brought to light some unsavory characters to British breeders who i would never deal with.


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## Alec Swan (5 April 2013)

Flyingbuck,

Whilst I'll accept that I neither understand,  nor care about the minutiae of any registration authorities,  could you explain to a rather bemused reader,  just what your intentions are,  regarding your posts,  all of them?  You've started a thread,  or so it seems,  with questions,  but rapidly directed the theme to one of pointed accusations,  or have I missed your original intent?

Alec.


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## Flyingbuck (6 April 2013)

Flyingbuck said:



			I would be happy to hear from anyone who has verifiable information on the AES studbook just as soon as it becomes available - here's hoping it won't be too long before we all know what is happening with the AES studbook - in the meantime, I will await a written reply to my emails from them.
		
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Alec Swan - just the quote above which I have stated a few times throughout the thread. The thread has gone off topic a few times, but now back on track again - hope that helps.


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## koeffee (6 April 2013)

Flyingbuck said:



			Alec Swan - just the quote above which I have stated a few times throughout the thread. The thread has gone off topic a few times, but now back on track again - hope that helps.
		
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Thats the thing flyingbuck, why would anyone here know on a public forum?? whilst a court case is going on, parties are not suppose to divulge information, so all you will get here is small minded individuals trying to cause a bit of trouble? This has been going on a while but as some said, only now kwpn are excepting aes stallions so the claws have come on other parties, im happy to wait, as im sure you are, having never using aes stallion it shouldnt matter to you?!!


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## Flyingbuck (6 April 2013)

koeffee said:



			Thats the thing flyingbuck, why would anyone here know on a public forum?? whilst a court case is going on, parties are not suppose to divulge information, so all you will get here is small minded individuals trying to cause a bit of trouble? This has been going on a while but as some said, only now kwpn are excepting aes stallions so the claws have come on other parties, im happy to wait, as im sure you are, having never using aes stallion it shouldnt matter to you?!!
		
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Not quite sure I'd agree with all that you have just said.

A few links to reported information have appeared from others and I have added a separate link - I think that it's good that we can share information regarding an aspect of British breeding amongst ourselves who are British breeders.

Others have stated that we will be privy to a statement in a matter of days - again, time may be of the essence to some mare owners who like to cover early and so any prolonged delay may be problematic - but I welcome the news of a statement.

As a mare owner and breeder living in Scotland, I cannot agree with your assertion that what is happening in a section of British breeding should not matter to me.

Edited to add - and now that the thread is back on track, please let's keep it so.


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## nomis (6 April 2013)

Koeffee, Alec Swan and myself have both informed the OP that they need to speak direct to the AES, I even went as far as giving him the telephone number.  But the sad fact is that he has ignored both these recommendations and continues to pursue this on a public forum, knowing FULL WELL that he will not get an answer from anyone.  Especially, as you rightly say, while any legal action is happening behind the scenes.

The fact of the matter is that the OP is just continuing this thread to stir, as he has no AES Stallions, no AES offspring and is highly unlikely to use any AES stallions due to the fact that his own breeding direction seems to sway very much to using stallions from Paul Schockemöhle, while registering said foals with other UK Studbooks (i.e. SSH or BHHS).  So he has no vested interest at all regarding the AES.

The fact is that the KWPN, one of the largest Studbooks in the world, is now accepting the AES as one of its Approved Studbooks, and that speaks volumes for the quality of stallions and horses that the AES has, along with the statistics of what those horses are doing in sport. 

As I have said several times, for those who want further information then phone the number I gave above, otherwise I think we should just let this post like dormant, although I am sure the OP will have something to say about that!


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## Flyingbuck (6 April 2013)

Give it a rest Ros!

No one is going to take anything verbatim over the phone - there would be no accurate record of who said what.

I have already intimated that I have sent emails, proper written requests - when I have received written replies, I will share.


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## nomis (6 April 2013)

Flyingbuck said:



			Give it a rest Ros!

No one is going to take anything verbatim over the phone - there would be no accurate record of who said what.

I have already intimated that I have sent emails, proper written requests - when I have received written replies, I will share.
		
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Ros? That has amuzed me greatly.

If you have done the above and are waiting on a reply then why are you asking what is happening on a public forum?  Nonsensical to say the least, and again just proves you are out to cause trouble!!  As you have been a Chairman of a breed society before you would THINK that you have the WIT to know that this will not happen.

You have said that you will share your reply with the world when you get one, so I suggest that until that happens that you give it a rest as you know full well nobody is going to give you an answer on a public forum.


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## Flyingbuck (6 April 2013)

But once again you would appear to be mistaken  - information has already been forthcoming on this very forum - members have added links to the latest news and have added that statements will be made shortly - and no doubt, further developments will be added as they become known to members.

Sharing information is one of the main tenets of a forum and I hope will continue to be the case.


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## Yorketown (6 April 2013)

I am a hobby breeder and I am afraid that I have no further information but I feel that I have to say that I am really disappointed in the stirring that is occurring.  Yes, there is an issue but at the end of the day the AES and registration will continue regardless of the outcome so why stir?   One would have hoped that British breeders would try and support a British studbooks not divulge in this gossip mongering.

Any other hobby/amateur breeders who are anxious about registering their foals please just call AES who I am sure will try and answer any of your concerns.

Flyingbuck, please don&#8217;t think this is a go out you, I do realise that as a stud owner/Stallion owner you would want clear clarification on the new structure asap but don&#8217;t know how any hearsay and links to one sided articles will help.  You have already taken the best course of action and sent correspondence direct to the source for clarification; let&#8217;s just wait for the response.  

The OP was right to start this thread but let&#8217;s try and help by keeping to the facts and not indulging in hearsay and character assassination.

Ps. please don&#8217;t all lynch me now!!!


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## jamesmead (6 April 2013)

So, since Flyingbuck has had his "information" from this forum, lets hope he's happy with that.

Of course, only a fool would value the sort of information emanating from Janet George's source, but hey ho...

Meanwhile, I have to say that apart from the very insightful posts by Colourfan, and the good sense talked on here by such as Alec and Nomis, the thing that stands out for me is the sheer spitefulness of, basically, a person who signally failed to do for the studbook he chaired and the breeders he represented, what Henk Minderman achieved for his.

I'm afraid success excites the interest of the greedy and the self-interested and I think this may be what we are seeing here; basically an attempted takeover of a British stud book and a sign, therefore, of its value and perceived success. But the NAME is not the STUDBOOK and even if the name has been legitimately acquired by the Dutch breeders it does not mean that the data it once represented has also been acquired. I would also expect that it is the data, rather than the name, which would interest DEFRA. My guess - and it is only a guess - I wouldn't go so far as to call it "information" - is that the studbook will continue with Henk at the helm in this country.

My gut feeling is that we should offer any support we can to this man who, by his energy and vision, has, through his studbook, made British breeding visible in Europe; not just for old times sake or out of gratitude, but out of self interest; because this is, effectively, is our flagship studbook and needs to remain in Britain under whatever name, rather than going to Holland to be asset-stripped. 

If the only support we can give is a few days patience, then difficult though it is, especially for those with the ****-stirring streak (though I say it as shouldn't), then I think we should give it; as much for our own sakes as British breeders as for any other reason.


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## jamesmead (6 April 2013)

Cross-posted with Yorketown; an excellent post.


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## Flyingbuck (6 April 2013)

Hahaha - that made laugh


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## Flyingbuck (6 April 2013)

Yorketown said:



			The OP was right to start this thread but lets try and help by keeping to the facts and not indulging in hearsay and character assassination.
		
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I would agree with that - let's see how long it is before it starts up again though...and by whom


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## JanetGeorge (6 April 2013)

jamesmead said:



			Of course, only a fool would value the sort of information emanating from Janet George's source, but hey ho...

Meanwhile, I have to say that apart from the very insightful posts by Colourfan, and the good sense talked on here by such as Alec and Nomis, the thing that stands out for me is the sheer spitefulness of, basically, a person who signally failed to do for the studbook he chaired and the breeders he represented, what Henk Minderman achieved for his.

I'm afraid success excites the interest of the greedy and the self-interested and I think this may be what we are seeing here; basically an attempted takeover of a British stud book and a sign, therefore, of its value and perceived success. But the NAME is not the STUDBOOK and even if the name has been legitimately acquired by the Dutch breeders it does not mean that the data it once represented has also been acquired. I would also expect that it is the data, rather than the name, which would interest DEFRA. My guess - and it is only a guess - I wouldn't go so far as to call it "information" - is that the studbook will continue with Henk at the helm in this country.
		
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As my only 'source' is an article on a respectable equestrian site - and an admittedly slightly rough translation from the Dutch of the AES site there, I suspect it's better than people's gut feelings, likes and dislikes.

The Anglo European Studbook LTD (my emphasis on the LTD) is a company and it IS the recognised PIO!  IT obviously owns the studbook. Henk is a minor shareholder in this company and has been - allegedly - sacked by the majority shareholders who are big KWPN breeders in Holland.

I personally think this is unfortunate as Henk has worked his backside off establishing the AES in the UK - and obviously is well-liked an respected by the breeders.  However, the fact would appear to be that he is no longer a director of the Anglo European Studbook LTD which is the DEFRA registered PIO and the 'owner' of the data.

Gut feelings, likes and dislikes will have nothing to do with the outcome of this situation - the law will.


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## jamesmead (6 April 2013)

I'm afraid Janet George is making MASSIVE assumptions here. 

Anglo European Studbook Ltd. is a COMPANY NAME. There is no "obviously" about whether or not it owns the data or remains the studbook that was once associated with that name. A name can be sold without the business that first used it. (Of course, buying a ready-made "company" in the sense of a registered name is actually a normal way to start up in business, cheaper and quicker than going through the process from scratch).

Any authority dealing with the original business would NOT transfer their interest to a new business re-using the old name; so it cannot be certain that "Anglo European Studbook Ltd." IS the PIO recognised by DEFRA as it may no longer be the same business.

That the new directors claim it is the "real" studbook is really neither here not there; Henk, by holding gradings, appears to be claiming otherwise with just as much justification.

As Janet George says, the law will decide; but until it does, I feel a lot safer with my gut feeling than with the "information" as relayed by Janet George and interpreted at face value as if the law had already decided.


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## jamesmead (6 April 2013)

Just to add - upheavals and power struggles, splits and mergers of this kind are common enough in business and we hear nothing very much about them; its business as usual on the surface while the politics go on in the background.

The studbook is too hot a property to be allowed to fail and I don't think we need be as worried as the Flyingbucks of this world would like us to be.


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## Flyingbuck (6 April 2013)

jamesmead said:



			Just to add - upheavals and power struggles, splits and mergers of this kind are common enough in business and we hear nothing very much about them; its business as usual on the surface while the politics go on in the background.

The studbook is too hot a property to be allowed to fail and I don't think we need be as worried as the Flyingbucks of this world would like us to be.
		
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And there you go!  

We didn't have to wait too long.

Everyone should be aware - this is not just politics - it is more than that - it is a legal wrangle and it will be for the courts to determine which party will prevail and will be allowed to carry on the business. If it was just politics, it could have been sorted behind closed doors - this has evidently not been possible in this case.


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## jamesmead (6 April 2013)

I think you'll generally find that business politics involve a legal aspect. The only differences here are those of timing - which is unavoidable - and a certain oddly malicious involvement of such as yourself, Keith, who, for want of something better to do, seem wish to exaggerate any problems as much as possible, despite having no apparent personal involvement with the studbook.


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## JanetGeorge (6 April 2013)

jamesmead said:



			I'm afraid Janet George is making MASSIVE assumptions here. 

Anglo European Studbook Ltd. is a COMPANY NAME. There is no "obviously" about whether or not it owns the data or remains the studbook that was once associated with that name. A name can be sold without the business that first used it. (Of course, buying a ready-made "company" in the sense of a registered name is actually a normal way to start up in business, cheaper and quicker than going through the process from scratch).

Any authority dealing with the original business would NOT transfer their interest to a new business re-using the old name; so it cannot be certain that "Anglo European Studbook Ltd." IS the PIO recognised by DEFRA as it may no longer be the same business.

That the new directors claim it is the "real" studbook is really neither here not there; Henk, by holding gradings, appears to be claiming otherwise with just as much justification.

As Janet George says, the law will decide; but until it does, I feel a lot safer with my gut feeling than with the "information" as relayed by Janet George and interpreted at face value as if the law had already decided.
		
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Gee James - I DO hope you don't run a Ltd. company because if you do, your knowledge and understanding of company law and how a company operates may get you into BIG trouble!

Who on EARTH would buy (or sell) a well known company name without the associated business - leaving the 'business' to operate in competition? And all customers to be plunged into total confusion?   Only a total moron!  And I don't think the people on either side of this wrangle are morons!

And do you really think DEFRA will say - "Ah - here is someone with a different name - who is NOT registered as a PIO - using data from an existing registered PIO - we'll just register them too??  Now there are some slightly dim people at DEFRA - but not THAT dim!


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## Flyingbuck (6 April 2013)

jamesmead said:



			I think you'll generally find that business politics involve a legal aspect. The only differences here are those of timing - which is unavoidable - and a certain oddly malicious involvement of such as yourself, Keith, who, for want of something better to do, seem wish to exaggerate any problems as much as possible, despite having no apparent personal involvement with the studbook.
		
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It's unfortunate that you can't get your points across, however nonsensical they may be, without being rude and offensive towards me. But hey-ho.... 

However, the attempts at deflection won't work - I am still as keen as ever for further information regarding the resolution of problems currently besetting the AES studbook.


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## elijahasgal (6 April 2013)

Please can we instead of all the backbiting, nitpicking, etc etc, remember that the AES is a fantastic studbook that has done wonders for UK breeding, and is doing things its own way, not the same as European way, and doing well.   
Please can we agree to wait for the promised announcements, that I am assured by some of our prominent breeders who have spoken to Henk, are all well within order, and waiting to be given. 
Lets not turn this into sniping at one another, flying our own adgendas etc.


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## Alec Swan (6 April 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			Gee James - I DO hope you don't run a Ltd. company because if you do, your knowledge and understanding of company law and how a company operates may get you into BIG trouble!

.......
		
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Are the Haywards Heath branch of the AES a Limited Company?

Alec.


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## ColourFan (17 April 2013)

Has anyone heard anything yet?
I was told by a Dutch relation, who is in contact with the Dutch Party,  that the court case was to take place yesterday (in the U.K.).
It is dead silent on the Dutch Forums.

By the by, one of the 3-year olds that was 'Approved' at the Dutch A.E.S. Approvals has been sold to America.


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## Yorketown (18 April 2013)

An article I have read today but don't know how acurate the facts are:
'The administrative troubles within the AES studbook were resolved this week. The major shareholder and director of the Studbook, Kees van den Oetelaar, had a disagreement with the former director Henk Minderman, who still claimed to be the director. As Henk Minderman organized a licensing day in Belgium recently Van den Oetelaar filed an complained against Minderman in England. Now Minderman and Van Oetelaar have reached a common understanding.
&#8220;Shortly before the hearing in English court , Minderman wanted to settle with us. Our demands &#8211; including that he is now no longer concerned with the AES, the phone is switched to us, his website will be offline and the administration is transmitted to us &#8211; are granted,&#8221; states Joris van den Oetelaar, on the website of the AES. The breeders were mainly confused after two inspections that took place recently. Minderman claimed that the inspection in Schijndel on 15 March was not valid and he organized a show in Fleurus in the last weekend of March.
&#8220;Next week we&#8217;ll organize another AES inspection in Schijndel, for the breeders that took part in Fleurus that have become victims of the invalid test in Belgium,&#8221; continues Van den Oetelaar.
© equnews.com/ AES Studbook'


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## Wisnette (19 April 2013)

If you google Angle European Studbook Ltd, there's a whole lot of websites giving company information... there's only 2 directors now.  For an organisation holding stallion gradings, its very interesting to see who previous directors have been!!


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## oldywoldy (19 April 2013)

Louise Minderman has just released a statement I think it will be on the aes website basically nothing has been resolved


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## Alec Swan (19 April 2013)

I've just spoken with a staff member from AES (Sussex),  and it's now my understanding that all British registrations,  whilst still accepted by their delightful and helpful staff,  will actually be registered through SIES,  The Studbook of Ireland and European Sporthorses.  The SIES will be the PIO.  It's my understanding that this has taken effect from today.

I would suggest that Henk Minderman,  and his excellent team are given all the support that British Breeders can muster.

Alec.


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## elijahasgal (19 April 2013)

Interestingly, I have just tried to access the AES website, and it is down.
I personally hope that the AES realise just how much support Henk has in this country, and that if he joins the Irish sport horse, that he now having steered one studbook to the level that it has got to, he surely can guide another there.
Tremendous shame all the aggro, and worrying time for the stallion owners that have just been admitted and are now on uncertain standing.


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## cruiseline (19 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I've just spoken with a staff member from AES (Sussex),  and it's now my understanding that all British registrations,  whilst still accepted by their delightful and helpful staff,  will actually be registered through SIES,  The Studbook of Ireland and European Sporthorses.  The SIES will be the PIO.  It's my understanding that this has taken effect from today.

I would suggest that Henk Minderman,  and his excellent team are given all the support that British Breeders can muster.

Alec.
		
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Hear, hear Alec now is the time for British Breeders to stick together and support Henk, who has tirelessly put his time and effort into providing us all with a WORLD RANKED studbook.


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## shirleyno2 (19 April 2013)

Well I for one will be fully supporting the Irish studbook, lets bear in mind that it is Northern Ireland based I believe, so fully British.


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## Pippin79 (19 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I've just spoken with a staff member from AES (Sussex),  and it's now my understanding that all British registrations,  whilst still accepted by their delightful and helpful staff,  will actually be registered through SIES,  The Studbook of Ireland and European Sporthorses.  The SIES will be the PIO.  It's my understanding that this has taken effect from today.

I would suggest that Henk Minderman,  and his excellent team are given all the support that British Breeders can muster.

Alec.
		
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Ditto this.  I for one will support whichever studbook Henk remains with.  No-one has done more for British breeding.


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## no_no_nanette (19 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I've just spoken with a staff member from AES (Sussex),  and it's now my understanding that all British registrations,  whilst still accepted by their delightful and helpful staff,  will actually be registered through SIES,  The Studbook of Ireland and European Sporthorses.  The SIES will be the PIO.  It's my understanding that this has taken effect from today.

I would suggest that Henk Minderman,  and his excellent team are given all the support that British Breeders can muster.

Alec.
		
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Thank you Alec for bringing some wisdom and generosity into this debate.  And I completely endorse your feeling that Henk and his team should be given all possible support.  After all, he did get a Lifetime Award from the BEF in recognition of all that he has done for British breeding : with all the carping that has gone on, it would be easy to forget the incredibly valuable role that he has played.


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## Rollin (19 April 2013)

I wonder what this will mean for AES in France.  I have one ShGxCB registered with them.  I had hoped this would give me an opportunity to compete part bred CB's in France.

As I will breed more ShGxCB finding a stud book for them is important.


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## Yorketown (19 April 2013)

Thanks for the update Alec, I will be registering mine with SIES then!!


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## koeffee (19 April 2013)

I will register with sies too, also its what the Welsh call the English!! seems fitting!!


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## cruiseline (19 April 2013)

I too will be registering my 2013 foals with SEIS if Henk is at the helm.


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## gadetra (19 April 2013)

elijahasgal said:



			Interestingly, I have just tried to access the AES website, and it is down.
I personally hope that the AES realise just how much support Henk has in this country, and that if he joins the Irish sport horse, that he now having steered one studbook to the level that it has got to, he surely can guide another there.
Tremendous shame all the aggro, and worrying time for the stallion owners that have just been admitted and are now on uncertain standing.
		
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Just a little aside-the SIES has NOTHING to do with the ISH studbook, it is a completely separate thing, and to be honest I have never heard of it. It is extremely difficult to set up another PIO in southern Ireland, as we only really have one, and the new warmblood one (which is very small at the moment) as the SJ warmblood studbook failure illustrates.
I am a little wary of having Ireland in the name of the new studbook, and surprised it has been allowed.

Also Shirleyno2 I would be very careful of making assertions of nationality based in NI. It is one of the most (unintentionally!) contentious statements I have ever read on HHO! 

Anyway sorry for hijack, it seems like a really sad situation, and maybe one where money has won out over decency and hard work. Such a pity.


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## cruiseline (19 April 2013)

Obviously that should read SIES, my excuse is its late and I am on the mobile :-S


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## shirleyno2 (19 April 2013)

gadetra said:



			Also Shirleyno2 I would be very careful of making assertions of nationality based in NI. It is one of the most (unintentionally!) contentious statements I have ever read on HHO! .
		
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I always thought NI was part of GB? Am I being dense!?


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## gadetra (19 April 2013)

shirleyno2 said:



			I always thought NI was part of GB? Am I being dense!?
		
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Sorry no you are not being dense!
It's seen as part of Southern Ireland for quite a large amount of its inhabitants. 
It is part of GB administratively but not really altogether happily! It's a long long extremely complex story that doesn't matter here, I was just shocked to hear it put like that as it is not necessarily how it is seen over here!
Anyway, it doesn't matter here just an aside.


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## Truly (19 April 2013)

shirleyno2 said:



			I always thought NI was part of GB? Am I being dense!?
		
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I thought it was too Shirley ...my ex husband was a Catholic from NI and he had a British passport.


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## gadetra (19 April 2013)

Truly said:



			I thought it was too Shirley ...my ex husband was a Catholic from NI and he had a British passport.
		
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It's an awful lot more complicated than that unfortunately!
Anyway, sorry for hijack!


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## HBM1 (20 April 2013)

I think we all know that from what we have been through about it in the past. However as far as a passport issuing studbook is concerned it seems ok for England (etc) based breeders to use as well.


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## EstherYoung (20 April 2013)

Truly said:



			I thought it was too Shirley ...my ex husband was a Catholic from NI and he had a British passport.
		
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Legally they're all eligible for nationality of both countries as long as they tick the usual nationality eligibility boxes. Basically being born in NI 'counts' as being born in Ireland and as being born in the UK for the purposes of establishing nationality.

And yeah, the way Shirley said it, I can see how that statement could be seen as a bit (unintentionally) contentious.


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## shirleyno2 (20 April 2013)

No contentiousness intended!!!!! 
 Meant purely on the paperwork side of things!


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## gadetra (20 April 2013)

Is SEIS a new studbook Minderman has set up?
I haven't heard of it before. It may well be my heedlessness to blame for that though!
Such a sad situation. It seems incredible it can happen, that someone can start a studbook, put their blood sweat and tears into it only for others with large vested interests to swoop in and take it over as soon as it becomes successful-have I got it right?
And Shirleyno2 I get where your coming from I just get a craw in my throat about things every now and then!


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## gadetra (20 April 2013)

Double posted deleted sorry


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## GinnieRedwings (20 April 2013)

Gadetra...  NI, Irish or British (well technically UK, not GB), an even bigger can of worms than AES, Minderman or Van Den Otelaar. 
I did my MA thesis on some aspects of the Troubles, and that has me in stitches (of the ironic type) this morning :-S


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## Yorketown (20 April 2013)

Is using SAIS a temporary or permanent measure?


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## Yorketown (20 April 2013)

Yorketown said:



			Is using SAIS a temporary or permanent measure?
		
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Sorry - that should be SIES!


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## JanetGeorge (20 April 2013)

gadetra said:



			Such a sad situation. It seems incredible it can happen, that someone can start a studbook, put their blood sweat and tears into it only for others with large vested interests to swoop in and take it over as soon as it becomes successful-have I got it right?
		
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Not quite.  Obviously Henk did the work to establish AES and build it up - but others put money into it to make it possible.  The whys and wherefores of the falling out between the owners we may never know - but the company reports show various interesting facts which MIGHT be implicated

Frankly, I don't think Stud Books should be set up or run by individuals - it's too easy for things to go badly wrong and for the people who lose out to be the ones who have spent considerable sums registering and grading their stock!  It IS unusual - with 'my' tudbook and most others in this country if there's something you're not happy with, you can take it up with committee members, get yourself elected to committee - generally have a say!

SIES is newly established - there is nothing on its website to say WHO owns it.  A Janice Stevenson appears to be the Admin. - and a 'connection' with AES is also indicated - beyond that - nothing!


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## Alec Swan (20 April 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			Not quite........

Frankly, I don't think Stud Books should be set up or run by individuals - it's too easy for things to go badly wrong and .......
		
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Janet,  we have to bear in mind that a camel was a horse which was designed by a committee.  I've been invited on to several committees,  and left every one of them because of the apathy of other members,  and it's a mistake which I no longer make.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the success of the HM started and managed AES was the success that it was,  simply _because_ it had the focused approach of one person.  I'm not aware of the reasons for the apparent demise of the British branch,  but it wouldn't surprise me to find out that with the need for funding,  and the invitation of others on to a board,  that control was lost by the founder.  If my supposition is right,  then it wont be the first time,  and I doubt that it will be a mistake which HM is about to repeat! 

I'm now wondering if the AES British branch will continue trading under it's original name,  or if,  in time,  it will become the SIES.  The problem,  if it doesn't continue under the old description for the Continental branch,  will be that the clue in part is in the very first word,  "Anglo",  as in British.  Few from here will want to be bothered with applying for passports on the Continent,  I'd have thought.

Dunno,  general musings!  I'll ask on Monday.

Alec.


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## gadetra (20 April 2013)

GinnieRedwings said:



			Gadetra...  NI, Irish or British (well technically UK, not GB), an even bigger can of worms than AES, Minderman or Van Den Otelaar. 
I did my MA thesis on some aspects of the Troubles, and that has me in stitches (of the ironic type) this morning :-S
		
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Exactly!

Anyway, back to the studbook. Thank you for the clarification Janet George. 
I did think that by using Ireland in the title there was a possibility they were piggybacking on the success of a more established and successful studbook, and am surprised it was allowed to be named as so, given that it is a mainly English studbook it replaces. For me anyway, the AES was the English version of the ISH studbook, the identifying studbook of the UK. It seems strange to 'replace'/restart another version of it under the Irish banner instead of a UK one? Anyway, it's just a musing!


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## shirleyno2 (20 April 2013)

The SIES was set up in 2010 I believe, so not really newly registered! 
Hell, they say a change is as good as a rest, I'm game to try green passports !!!!!


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## gadetra (20 April 2013)

shirleyno2 said:



			The SIES was set up in 2010 I believe, so not really newly registered! 
Hell, they say a change is as good as a rest, I'm game to try green passports !!!!!
		
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Only the very best come with green passports


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