# The cost of life abroad...



## RichardRider (13 February 2013)

Was surprised when I read that  some members felt living in France more expensive than back in the UK.  I have never lived in Great Britain and have only visited while working on a few isolated occasions(and this was always London,) so I can't say.  

Do you Brits find Europe(France in my case,) more expensive?

...rr


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## Pale Rider (13 February 2013)

Seems to me this is very subjective and depends on your circumstances.
A friend of mine was constantly moaning about how much tax he paid as a self employed person in France, Nearly 50% of his profit. When he compaired that with UK self employment he thought he was being hard done by, that is until you look at tax paid by people on PAYE in the UK.

The up side of abroad to me is not having to have the central heating on in JUne July August and September like we do here, lol.

France has always been cheaper than UK until of course the Euro.


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## criso (13 February 2013)

Depends what you're comparing.  I think sometimes what happens  people are comparing things that they commonly get in the UK and how much they cost abroad then that can give an unrealistic picture.

So you get people in supermarkets abroad shocked at how much PG tips and baked beans cost but ignoring the fact that fruit is cheaper.

I travel for work a lot and in certain  places I can pay almost as much for a cappuccino as a meal so if I spend the whole trip in the local branch of Starbucks I would  get a different opinion of the cost of living than if I go to small  local restaurants.  

However as a rule, I do find transport (trains, metro, bus, taxis) very expensive in the UK compared to other countries.


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## JCWHITE (13 February 2013)

Swings and roundabouts.
We have been here 7 years and things have significantly increased, the main things I notice, are diesel,horse feed,and our food. 
We note with alarm the situation re anyone who works or who is self employed.
However, what price peace of mind, liberty , lots of space? 
One thing is for sure, we wouldnt have afforded a place and land like we have, back in the uk.
We dont buy British brands in supermarkets, but do have a permanent list of shopping from the uk, like Branston,Worcester sauce, Stilton and Cheddar for friends who come to stay.
And no one gets in the door without a copy of the latest Horse and Hound!


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## RichardRider (13 February 2013)

JCWHITE said:



			the uk, like Branston,Worcester sauce, Stilton and Cheddar for friends who come to stay.
And no one gets in the door without a copy of the latest Horse and Hound!
		
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Oh, real English Cheddar and Stilton, OMG; my mouth is watering at the thought!

Yes, I believe to be self-employeed here(France,) is crazy.  I've had many English Friends, who were self-employeed, even who spoke very good French, go through the roof, pulling their hair out with RED TAPE, and endless charges...

...rr


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## Nicnac (13 February 2013)

I think the introduction of the Euro really pushed up the COL.  Everything was rounded *up *to the nearest Euro!

Knowing your prices is important.  I live in England for the moment but am back home for a few days next week as selling a property and I know exactly what I will be bringing back to the UK with me including some horse stuff because it's cheaper and/or better quality than the UK.

I would never buy English stuff abroad as far too expensive.  If you move abroad and expect to buy exactly the same brands as you are used to here it's going to cost a lot more.

The key to working abroad is having a damn good accountant who knows all the loopholes and can deal with the red tape!  

The other thing is to know enough of the language and local people to not get ripped off.  Unfortunately, wherever we live out side of our home country, we seem to be ripe pickings for the rip off merchants.


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## Booboos (13 February 2013)

Some things are more expensive and some things are cheaper:

Employing anyone is much more expensive in France. Our nanny/groom costs about the same in terms of minimum wage but the national insurance contributions at 80% on top of the minimum wage are insane in France. 

Taxes are also more expensive, like the equivalent of council tax, or the wealth tax which is a killer if you fall under its requirements. Taxes for small businesses or freelancers almost make it pointless to run the business.

Everyday food shopping is more expensive, although the quality of the products, especially fresh foods, is much better.

Vets are more expensive, as are foods for animals and tack and general rubbish for the farm.

Going out is cheaper, as is the price of drinks. Childcare (creche or childminder) and the cost of even private schools is so low as to be almost negligeable as they are heavily subsidised. If you fall under the category of 'farmer' in any way, your life becomes a lot easier, e.g. you get cheap diesel, cheap water, subsidies for farm buildings, etc.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (13 February 2013)

My No1 brother lives in France and pops back to visit now & then.
He's been out there for around 11+ years now.

We had a similar conversation at xmas about living costs & he says cost for cost for all household amenities (from town gas to telephone etc) and a standard weekly shop are about 8% more overall than in UK.
He reckons its cheaper (much) to run his 3 vehicles.
Taxes for employment are higher than here as also health & dental care.

Overall, he said he'd be saving ££'s per month if he lived here untill you get to the health side (bigger savings in UK) or going out for dinner bit as its SO much more expensive here.

His main reason for staying is his lifestyle & that there are far less people about - his town is just like our local town was in the early 70's when we were growing up as kids; - clean, tidy, weekly market, people greeting each other good morning etc


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## Pale Rider (13 February 2013)

It's no coincidence that everywhere the Euro is used suddenly became much more expensive.

France will be going through some really hard times in the near future as they try to ride out this current recession with socialist policies that are far from appreciated by the money men of Europe, ie Banks and International   Investers. Already ditched by the Germans, and the likes of Peugeot struggling.


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## Booboos (13 February 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			France will be going through some really hard times in the near future as they try to ride out this current recession with socialist policies that are far from appreciated by the money men of Europe, ie Banks and International   Investers. Already ditched by the Germans, and the likes of Peugeot struggling.
		
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That remark is so spot on! The French are living as if the recession never happened. The average French person has not really felt the effects of the recession and the government's financial policy seems to be 'demand money and you shall be given it' (by some imaginary rich people who should  be only too honoured to pay 80% taxes and by corporations who should be only too pleased to do business in a non-profit making French environment). The French are in for a big shock in the next few years...


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## lazybee (13 February 2013)

Booboos said:



			That remark is so spot on! The French are living as if the recession never happened. The average French person has not really felt the effects of the recession and the government's financial policy seems to be 'demand money and you shall be given it' (by some imaginary rich people who should  be only too honoured to pay 80% taxes and by corporations who should be only too pleased to do business in a non-profit making French environment). The French are in for a big shock in the next few years...
		
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It's strange you say the equivalent of council tax is more expensive Booboos in your earlier post. Where we are I literally knocked a zero off the number. I agree shopping can be more expensive, however I find many more luxury items slipping into the trolly  Diesel is still cheaper. No road tax. Our vet is a lot cheaper here too. As you say general farm stuff is expensive as are car parts. Without ebay dot co dot uk anyway. You can now get Screwfix deliveries. We have Tesco, Sainsbury etc home delivery (Tesco French Brie cheaper than in France) We buy basic things only and don't pine for British brands. There's always good old Lidl, I like their luxury range and their wine and cheese I recently got a half bottle of Sauternes for 5 euros.

One comment about the social policies in France, Banks and investors aside........It makes it a nice place to live (for now).


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## Pale Rider (13 February 2013)

Don't get me wrong I think that the French way of doing things is fantastic. In the UK everyone pays over the odds for everything, is in hock to the banks and then has to bail them out with tax payers money. No the French have a better way of doing things and make a proper show of their displeasure when anyone tries to take the P.

The English always seem to sympathise with the exploitative rich, even when they are as poor as church mice themselves. Probably because we have never had a proper revolution.


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## JCWHITE (13 February 2013)

Good thread this, lots of sensible discussion, totally agree about the state of the French nation and its people are in for a big shock, like whats happened in the uk.
Remember the NHS, although may not be perfect, is a big plus,with Healthcare costs in France to budget for.
Its a steep learning curve thats for sure!
But lots of fun too.


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## FreddiesGal (13 February 2013)

The food is definitely more expensive, especially when you decide you can not live without Cheddar Cheese, Golden Syrup (HOW MUCH?!), PG Tips, and Custard Creams.

I think livery is cheeper over there though from my personal experience. I had my boy on livery over there for 250 euros per month. That was with them mucking out for me and bringing him in, huge indoor arena, outdoor jumping arena, lunging pen, indoor American barn style stables and thousands of miles of off-road hacking, with hay, bedding and feed included. You would never find anywhere like that over here for so cheap.


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## Pale Rider (13 February 2013)

I really don't think the French will let themselves be squeezed like the English do, different mind set.


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## lazybee (13 February 2013)

FreddiesGal said:



			The food is definitely more expensive, especially when you decide you can not live without Cheddar Cheese, Golden Syrup (HOW MUCH?!), PG Tips, and Custard Creams.

I think livery is cheeper over there though from my personal experience. I had my boy on livery over there for 250 euros per month. That was with them mucking out for me and bringing him in, huge indoor arena, outdoor jumping arena, lunging pen, indoor American barn style stables and thousands of miles of off-road hacking, with hay, bedding and feed included. You would never find anywhere like that over here for so cheap.
		
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We have two companies in our area with weekly deliveries (in big refrigerated trucks) British supermarket home deliveries from all the majors plus Argos etc. We Just have to shop online and supply the companies address as the the delivery address. They them phone with the delivery time and we can pick it up.


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## Pale Rider (13 February 2013)

lazybee said:



			We have two companies in our area with weekly deliveries (in big refrigerated trucks) British supermarket home deliveries from all the majors plus Argos etc. We Just have to shop online and supply the companies address as the the delivery address. They them phone with the delivery time and we can pick it up.
		
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Sounds a really excellent idea.


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## Booboos (13 February 2013)

lazybee that is so useful about Screwfix! We didn't know that and prices of building materials in France are insane! 

Our council tax (taxe fonciere) is through the roof, although that may vary from area to area. Although there is no road tax the horsebox insurance is 1.5k euro per year which is more than I paid for insurance and road tax in the UK, and that's not including the huge costs of the MOT each year.


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## JCWHITE (13 February 2013)

Booboos, have you had to fit a tacho in the lorry?


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## lazybee (14 February 2013)

Booboos said:



			lazybee that is so useful about Screwfix! We didn't know that and prices of building materials in France are insane! 

Our council tax (taxe fonciere) is through the roof, although that may vary from area to area. Although there is no road tax the horsebox insurance is 1.5k euro per year which is more than I paid for insurance and road tax in the UK, and that's not including the huge costs of the MOT each year.
		
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I don't know about horsebox insurance, as I don't have one. One thing we have done though is transferred all our separate insurances to one company MACIF, no one else can come close to their prices. That's the cars, trailers, motorbikes, buildings, contents, tractors and machinery and PLI. Saved about 700euro.


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## Booboos (14 February 2013)

JCWHITE: as it happens I had one already but yes it is a requirement for journeys over 50kms from home. I properly imported the vehicle...the process took two years (lengthy post on this on French Entree).

lazybee: thanks for that, I will look into it! The problem is that anything over 3.5 tonnes is classed as a professional vehicle regardless of use, age, mileage, etc. and charged accordingly! As a result everyone has either 3.5 tonne lorries or trailers (all typically massively overloaded).


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## RichardRider (14 February 2013)

Booboos said:



			lazybee: thanks for that, I will look into it! The problem is that anything over 3.5 tonnes is classed as a professional vehicle regardless of use, age, mileage, etc. and charged accordingly! As a result everyone has either 3.5 tonne lorries or trailers (all typically massively overloaded).
		
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Booboos, Check out a new European Ruling  regarding the above.  I read something at the yard last week dealing with trailer and truck weights, and that for very little(like under 250Euros,) one can now upgrade and haul heavier loads.  It's very recent this...

I have often thought about building materials.  Often wondered if one could order(for a large job) a complete truck of say 'speed blocks'(the gray ones for building stables, etc,)and/or cement from somewhere out of France and pay less?

...rr


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## Booboos (14 February 2013)

RichardRider said:



			Booboos, Check out a new European Ruling  regarding the above.  I read something at the yard last week dealing with trailer and truck weights, and that for very little(like under 250Euros,) one can now upgrade and haul heavier loads.  It's very recent this...

I have often thought about building materials.  Often wondered if one could order(for a large job) a complete truck of say 'speed blocks'(the gray ones for building stables, etc,)and/or cement from somewhere out of France and pay less?

...rr
		
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My truck is 5.2 tonnes and now the proud owner of a Carte Grise so my troubles are over, but thanks I will have a look for the future. I doubt the 3.5 tonne trucks I see around have been upgraded to anything though! My friend has a DIY van conversion, by which I mean she puts a partition in her van and asks her two mares to jump in and out the back!!!! The horses' bums are right behind the driver's/passenger's heads! When it comes time for the controlle technique she removes the partition and goes to the garage!

I forgot to add, for building supplies the way to go is container by sea. We'll be filling up the container in the UK, shipping it to Marsailles and from there by road to us. Still cheaper (and better quality stuff) than French prices!


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## freckles22uk (14 February 2013)

For me its cheaper to live here (Spain) than the UK,  Ive got a small 2 bed house on less than a acre of land, and have the horses at home.. but if I sold this to move back to the UK, no way could I afford to buy the same sort of thing with the same money...

Horse food, I think I pay less than the UK, example sugar beet, 40kg = 14 (about £12) 

Food, probably about the same, (except wine ) I shop in the Spanish supermarkets, though If I want English brands, I go to Iceland, there are a few scattered round, though they also sell other branded stuff, so on my list would be Chedder, Dilute squash, HP sauce (and the like) cleanser (for my face, the spanish stuff is stupidly expensive) Self Raising flour, castor and Icing sugar   non of it is too expensive, 

The car... swings and roundabouts...  deisel is cheap 1.31 a litre .. yearly tax is 112 (Ive got a Sorento 4x4)  insurance is 400 (though Ive no idea what I would pay in the UK...  though horse trailers have to be taxed and insured too.. both being about 50 each..

Council taxes, about 150 per year...

And m on solar power,  but electric can be expensive, water prices for me are ok, and the horse have water from the well, gas we have gas bottles, but they have shot up in price, my only heating is a log burner, but never bought wood yet, I either go looking for it, and 2 years ago when I moved , chopped 60 trees down on my land...so that is lasting, and only need heatsing 4-5 months of the year, and then sometimes only in the evening...hard to compare to the uk, as its so long ( 8 years) since I lived there...

Mobile phones... more expensive as they dont seem to have the special deals like in the UK..  but my wifi is cheap 20 a month.. 

But I get by, and I know if I lived in the UK, I would have to work far more hours to afford to live there..


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## Casey76 (14 February 2013)

I always have a bit of a laugh when people say "I thought it was cheap living in France"

Having said that I'm right on the border between France, Germany and Switzerland, so the Swiss influence the prices on a lot of things.

I pay much more tax than I would in the UK, my weekly food shop (me and three cats) is nearly always over 75 (bloomin cats!), my heating bills are through the roof... but having said all of that I wouldn't change for the world.

My livery bills are much lower than the UK, I couldn't afford my house in the UK, and although getting on a bit, my trusty Megane will do 900km on a full tank.


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## RichardRider (14 February 2013)

Booboos said:



			I forgot to add, for building supplies the way to go is container by sea. We'll be filling up the container in the UK, shipping it to Marsailles and from there by road to us. Still cheaper (and better quality stuff) than French prices!
		
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Can you imagine THAT!  Incredible.  Almost makes me want to build my new stable block, just to see if it's true.  And think of all the cheddar and stilton one could smuggle in.  Would be nice and aged as well!

...rr


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## lazybee (14 February 2013)

Booboos said:



			I forgot to add, for building supplies the way to go is container by sea. We'll be filling up the container in the UK, shipping it to Marsailles and from there by road to us. Still cheaper (and better quality stuff) than French prices!
		
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Have you got a Brico Depot near you? they're good for basics. Especially plumbing, electrical, plaster board cement, crepi etc although some of their stuff is Kwality with a K.


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## Booboos (14 February 2013)

lazybee said:



			Have you got a Brico Depot near you? they're good for basics. Especially plumbing, electrical, plaster board cement, crepi etc although some of their stuff is Kwality with a K.
		
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Yes we do, really rubbish quality for basic stuff at silly prices! I also find most of their styles to have been 'imported' from the 1980s!

RR the container only works if you fill up the whole thing with materials. During our last build in the UK we had all the stonework done in India, all hand crafted and still (with transport) one third of the cost of getting them done in the UK.


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## MerrySherryRider (14 February 2013)

Sitting outside a Bordeaux café this morning, I asked OH if the locals knew there was a recession. Clothes and leather goods are beautiful but incredibly expensive and yet most people are exquisitely dressed. Food and dining out is expensive though the quality far exceeds the dross sold in the UK.
 As a visitor, everything seems expensive here, though the standard of goods and services is so much higher, so its a fair deal.
 The wine however is comparatively cheap and do not seem to sell the junk we get back home.

For quality of life in France, from a visitor's point of view, the UK is way behind.


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## RichardRider (14 February 2013)

horserider said:



			Sitting outside a Bordeaux café this morning, I asked OH if the locals knew there was a recession. Clothes and leather goods are beautiful but incredibly expensive and yet most people are exquisitely dressed. Food and dining out is expensive though the quality far exceeds the dross sold in the UK.
 As a visitor, everything seems expensive here, though the standard of goods and services is so much higher, so its a fair deal.
 The wine however is comparatively cheap and do not seem to sell the junk we get back home.

For quality of life in France, from a visitor's point of view, the UK is way behind.
		
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We just bought a townhouse in old Bordeaux City(arriving from Normandy in a week to start remodel.)  You are seated(or were,) in one of Europe's most beautiful cities.  The old portion is classed an "Historic Site" by UNESCO and the people are lovely...

I'm only a week away and I'm green with envy(but I love London too.)

Enjoy your stay!

....rr


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## MerrySherryRider (14 February 2013)

You're so right, it is utterly beautiful. The buildings and churches in the old part are stunning. The Opera house is beyond everything I could have imagined, we're staying at the Grand just opposite and OH is busy admiring the skill of the decorators. (Me, I'm admiring the food.)

I'm jealous of you, RR, that you will be living in a place that I could happily stay in forever, although, I am torn between here and Chartes, which I love also.


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## JCWHITE (14 February 2013)

Possibly the Bordeaux tram system looks like being extended to the exhibition area,by the Lac,  so may be a get together at the Salon du Cheval in 2014 is becoming a real possibility!
At last weeks show, there were so many top end retailers, makes me wonder what recession!
Bordeaux is beautiful , also check out the new look Ikea, its huge!


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## MerrySherryRider (14 February 2013)

Ah, yes, was kicking myself for arriving after the show last weekend. Haven't seen Ikea and due to the airline's meagre baggage allowances, I'll be packing very creatively tomorrow.


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## RichardRider (15 February 2013)

horserider said:



			You're so right, it is utterly beautiful. The buildings and churches in the old part are stunning. The Opera house is beyond everything I could have imagined, we're staying at the Grand just opposite and OH is busy admiring the skill of the decorators. (Me, I'm admiring the food.)

I'm jealous of you, RR, that you will be living in a place that I could happily stay in forever, although, I am torn between here and Chartes, which I love also.
		
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Lived 9 years near Chartes as well...or sort of; near Anet(Chateaux of Diane de Poitiers,) only 70kms out of Paris.  It was great for riding(all sorts of competitive stables,) great hacks and hourly trains into Paris.  It was much more practicable than here professionally.  You may want to check it out as well...

cheers...rr


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## sunnyone (9 March 2013)

We sold up and moved a couple of years ago. Initially to Spain as we had access to a flat there but the only livery yard for miles around was not as we had hoped i.e. treated their own horses badly e.g. not calling vet to PTS an old pony who could not stand, just waited days for him to die (Liverpool Care Plan for horses maybe?). Costwise our own costs were less than in the UK as we routinely eat only local produce at about 45 euros in the supermarket a week. Our 2 horses cost us 500 euros a month in an outside sheltered area. This included hard feed and straw (no hay!) to eat, and droppings cleared. Also the use of a shower, a large indoor and outdoor school. When we searched for land of our own the typical agricultural price was 56K a hectare for what seemed like rubbish to us. We checked out ads rather than phone where we saw signs so a deal may have been there but not at 1/10th of the starting price. Hence we decided to move north to somewhere where grass is plentiful and much cheaper i.e.about 5K a hectare and moved to France. Our French too is a lot better than our Spanish.

 We are now in Aquitaine to the west of Bordeaux. We bought 4 hectares so that we can get some body in to share with us. For us we found a modern 3 bed semi-bungalow with 1/5th hectare beside a canal with boats and a cycle path at the bottom of the garden for approx £100k.The 2 horses went to grass livery when we arrived for 310 euros including hay and feed. There was also a lunging area and outdoor school.  Other yards in the area can charge 320 euros for full livery for 1 horse, depending on their facilities. Now the horses are on our own land they have hay at 2 euros for a 25kg bale from a farm about 2 miles away and hard feed mix at 13.50 euros. The latter has gone up a complete euro since Christmas due to the rise in cereal prices. I cannot find straights.

 Our own hypermarket costs are about 60 euros a week, sometimes much higher, as its nigh on impossible to buy anything other than drinks in packages which retail at less than 1 euro. I know I could save some money by going to the farm shop but we dont need a kilo of fruit or a tray of apples at a time. Our local markets are no cheaper than the supermarkets as quality is their selling point. 

When in the UK I stock up on Fairy liquid, the regulation Cheddar cheese and crackers, rib eye steak, cheap cake and dessert mixes and double thick cream. When in Spain its garlic tostados, tinned olives and tomato frito. When going from France its goats cheese and Camembert and obviously quality wines.

Additional thoughts: mobile phones can be bought unlocked in Europe from 29euros so no need to stay locked into a contract or network. Pre-pay credit is normally valid for a year. Wood products are much more expensive in Europe. Bulk buys of non-food items are simply multiples of the single unit price with no discount. Horse trailers are cheaper in the UK, even those sporting a French makers name and plastic garden furniture is 50% cheaper in the UK. Robinsons Equestrian deliver to Europe as do German saddlers .

Vets in both France and Spain have been cheaper than in the UK, send you to the chemist for any drugs where they cant compete on price, and have been willing to seek advice at once from their university vet school when faced with a problem where the solution wasnt routine.


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