# Horse bucking in reaction to whip?



## Sol (17 November 2010)

Bit of a different question...



If you have a lazy horse, and you feel the need to back up your leg aids, you would most likely use a whip (or so I would have thought). However, what happens when the horse reacts to the whip not by moving forward, but by almost drawing to a halt and bucking/kicking out? 

Dante IS rather lazy, and I have tried just using transitions etc to get him listening and moving forward, but unless he's actually moving off the leg in the transitions, they're seeming rather pointless  
However, if I use the whip, a simple walk-trot transition will go 'walk, plant feet followed swiftly by leap/kick thing, grudgingly into horrible running trot'

Using the whip as an aid for lateral work is also impossible (he just hops/kicks/runs) and if you wanted to do any inhand work with him using one, it would be a tad suicidal. 

Spurs don't really have the desired effect and I would rather reserve them for refining aids that end up using them as a forward aid to be honest.

Sorry for the essay  And yes, I should be having lessons again in december! (or Jan, depending on money!)
Thanks


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## Raych (17 November 2010)

Hey, 
I have this with a horse i ride. I will ask her with my leg but no response at all, so i give her a tap and she bucks and plunges (only small) but a bit annoying, and as you said, she then rushes.
So any advice would help me too  x


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## ChloeC418 (17 November 2010)

Have you tried making him react to 'leg off' as opposed to 'leg on'. Start in walk or halt, then take your legs off. If theres no reaction, then GALLOP, bring back to walk/halt and repeat. You should find he comes better off your leg, even if there's no change in the bucking situation.


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## KittyJay (17 November 2010)

Probably a patronising question, but are you using your whip right behind your leg as a stronger version of your leg aid, or is it a smack on the bum? What happens if you tap on the shoulder/tap very lightly right where your leg is? Or get someone to shake a lunging whip with no intent to use it?


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## wellsat (17 November 2010)

How long have you had Dante? 

Daisy bucked when tickled with a whip when I first got her because her previous owner was scared of her bucking so always got off and put her back in the stable if she bucked. 

It took a couple of weeks of driving her forwards everytime she bucked for her to realise that a tantrum wasn't going to get her anywhere and she accepted it.


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## bigboyrocky (17 November 2010)

so long as there is nothing physically stopping him going forward, i would get after him a bit, as he should go forward when you say so. My boy used to be like this, and youve just got to be quick and sharp with your aids. Happy to say, 4yrs down the line he is now the most sensitive horse i have ridden, purely because he is tuned into me and knows when i touch him he goes. Ive found its just repitition of clear aids, and if they dont react straight away, make your aids even clearer and firmer. But remember if you get after them a bit, you have to let them go forward if they shoot off, as they have done as youve asked, and you just be a little more discreet with your aids the next time you ask for the transition.


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## kerilli (17 November 2010)

You don't have to smack with the whip. Just laying it on gently and then rubbing it on the skin, drawing it up across the skin say, gets a reaction but doesn't make a fiesty horse say "stuff you", which is what they're doing when they buck etc. Mares especially accept the rub with the whip far better imho.


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## Sol (17 November 2010)

Chloe - Dante doesn't understand 'gallop' unless he's doing so of his own accord.... (seriously!) He's too damn lazy for his own good  If I boot him, or really get after him, we may get a fast canter, if I then ask for anything more he will usually tell me to sod off, even doing XC! Yet he will happily gallop around of his own accord which does cconfuse me!

KittyJay - doesn't matter where I use the whip, reaction is the same/similiar - less severe if infront of the saddle but he will still 'stop up' a bit rather than moving forward. 

wellsat - 18 months now. Is it possible that I will either have to get him used to the whip in the stable (I have done some of this) or simply teach him that yes, he must get used to it AND move away from it - so rather than taking the whip off when he stops/bucks, instead hold it there or use it again (it's not like I'd be beating him with it) until he gets the idea to go forward instead? 

Thanks for the replies so far


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## Mike007 (17 November 2010)

Lazy horse bucks when given a slap for ignoring the leg ,gets a second slap for bucking and a third for insolence.!!! They do get the message pretty quickly.But for what its worth ,I dont even carry a stick with my horse.


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## Sol (17 November 2010)

kerilli - even just laying it on his side causes him to kick out.... if he -thinks- it is going to touch him ie. on a smaller circle, where he can see it to the inside yet it isn't going to touch him at all, he will take offense. 
I have in the past tried just lightly holding the whip there - he wasn't going to stop what he was doing... and in a dressage saddle it isn't so fun  

Oddly, it is more of a kick than a buck usually.


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## Mavis007 (17 November 2010)

I used to have a very stroppy mare that the more you tried to make her, the more she would say "get stuffed". Certainly tapping her with the whip had exactly the same reaction: skid to halt and kick out with ears flat back I found that using the end of the reins flicked side to side onto each shoulder sent her forwards far better. I could then praise her and finally the penny would drop. Until next time... I am not at all into intelligent horsemanship, but an isntructor once made me a "wip ***" or whatever silly name they call it- basically pieces of  baler twine tied together  into a whip like length to use in a similar fashion to flicking the reins. This also worked and is easier if short reins! She also much prefered jumping so if she was getting a bit stuffy, popping her over a cross pole- or even pole on the ground- used to make her wake up with out any stroppiness


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## kirstyl (17 November 2010)

How much do you lunge your horse?  Just asking because when I train horses on the lunge I do use the whip, not in an agressive manner I might add, but I use it where I would use my legs so around girth area and tapping up from underneath.  Perhaps it would help to desensitise him with whip whilst in hand - ie gradually (and carefully!) building up to running whip over him.

On the other hand, I have had a large Hannoverian stallion who would cow kick when I tapped him with the whip. He really was just being arsey as in I'm not going to do it unless you make me.  Instructor (Adam Kemp)'s advice was to tap him again until he moved on from whip. It worked!  It can be pretty daunting if horses react violently to the whip, and you are wondering what is coming next.  It's a lot easier and feels safer too, if you have someone there - do you have an instructor to help you?


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## diggerbez (17 November 2010)

my horse is a sensitive little soul- can only give a flick with a schooling whip when he is fully soft and relaxed- if he's not then he will literally turn himself inside out if i dare to use whip  i talked to trainer about this and she said some horses are just like that... she suggested (as someone has above) of focusing on getting them off leg- so ask quietly, if ignored huge pony club boot with a shout if necessary- repeat until horse is listening. it does work, can just take time. you have to be really careful though that the rest of the time your legs aren't constantly nagging so its either a polite ask or a very impolite one (i.e. black and white) as opposed to a grey area in the middle.

the other alternative i would say is spurs but i agree probs best to save those at this stage


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## gnubee (17 November 2010)

I ride a couple that buck if you smack them with the whip. One of them responds well if you just wave it out to the side (to speed up a trot I kind of wave it in the rythym of the trot, and to back up an aid for a transition I use more of a big swoosh).

The other took a couple of months to convince him that me swishing it didn't mean I was going to smack him. I actually think the bucking is a pain response from being hit hard in the past, as the buck kind of came across to me as wincing away from the whip. Something that did work is tipping it upside down jockey style, and waving it above his neck. I think he didnt associate it with the whipping action in the same way that moving it to the side would, so I didnt get the buck reaction and it made him feel uncomfortable enough to make him go forward.  Eventually this one got used to having the stick moving around through this method, and ultimately I managed to start working with it the right way up again, and then actually using it gently behind my leg to back up an aid.

I did try it on one once who completely freaked out about it though, so would try it first in a secure environment.


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## Tnavas (17 November 2010)

Naughty boy! 
Spend some time on the ground desensitising him to the whip, run it over his body and see his reaction - if fearful then spend the time getting him to accept it. 

If not then get on, if he kicks out when you use the whip and doesn't go forward - fasten your seatbelt tight and use the whip again - repeat until he stops kicking out and goes forward. 

Do check that you are using it tidily right behind your leg and not way back on his flank.


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## Kallibear (18 November 2010)

Have you tried using your reins, and flip him with them, western style? Generally works well for whip shy or stuffy horses.

My horse takes it a step further - he bucks/kicks out if ANOTHER horse nearby is smacked!!  He bucks the exact time it lands, as if he's the one getting a smack!

Instead I use my reins (which as extra long endurance ones) and flip them over his shoulders and neck.


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## spookypony (18 November 2010)

Interesting (and familiar) dilemma! I'm having a similar issue at the moment, with added backwards-walking before the bucking. I can trace this habit to the summer, when he used this to indicate foot pain. Since I backed off then, he seems to have learnt that it's a good way to get out of work. I'm currently pursuing a tactic suggested by another forummer: the moment he gives in and goes really well forward, we stop our schooling session. Don't know if it'll work yet in the long run, but will keep you posted!

As to _how_ I get him out of the backwards bucks, at the moment, a combo of continuous pony club kicks and flicks seems to be the only way, with me stopping this flapping the moment he gives in. I feel rather sheepish about this, since I've been told off about flapping and nagging often enough, but since he's as sensitive as ever when he _wants_ to hear my aids (i. e. in the nice leafy forest on a hack), I hope I'm not creating a monster...  I'm interested to see that diggerbez is suggesting a similar approach!

I really _dread_ to think what flip-flopping my reins would do...


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## Navalgem (18 November 2010)

Mine used to buck with a little flick, but with him it's just temper, there was no pain or fear involved. I used to be scared he'd ditch me but my instructor suggest that i don't give in or he'll think he's won, so i braved it and flicked him him every time he bucked till he gave in and went forward - since then he hasn't done it again and is lovely to school now.  But not every horse is the same.


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## millitiger (18 November 2010)

what sort of whip are you using?

a lot of sensitive, stuffy horses don't react well to a schooling whip.

echo someone else, the 'John Wayne' flick across the withers with the reins works very well on stuffy horses.

or, I used a leadrope on Millie for about a year instead of a whip as she was so resentful.
You look a bit Monty Roberts-esk but it worked really well and i have now been able to go back to a whip with no issues.
Sometimes you have to think a little outside the box.


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## Azmar (18 November 2010)

Why did you purchase such a backward thinking horse? Has he always been the same?


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## NeedNewHorse (18 November 2010)

Hi,

I have been through the same with my mare. Even now, when i ride her if she is being her usual opinionated lovely self, if i give her a flick with the whip she will almost flip me on her neck with an almighty kick out... As if to say... Don't you dare.. lol but that is always at the start of my ride i.e only when schooling.

But i just persist and she does get on with it now pretty sharpish, but she didn't used to.

However, like others have said I too use my reins over the neck (think cowboys, when they say ''yeehar'' and swing the reins over the horses neck. This pushes her forward straight away so I would definitely give this a go.

You really have to get your horse in the frame of mind that forwards is the only option and you are prepared to get him there regardless of what he does.. but the key to all this is instant praise (i.e stop whatever pressure, be is reins, whip leg whatever the moment he goes.. )

I remember Carl hester saying that when he clicks (i,e the noise we all make to push them on) his horses will react by almost going flat out. So he's got instant reaction there and you can get the same it will just take time, as for now you will have to be happy with any forward movement you get and then work on getting a much more forward reaction in time.

Another thing i do, is wallop my boot with my whip!! Doesn't hurt me obviously because I have boots on (or gaiters) but the noise and motion works to get them moving away from it and of course because it's not touching them, they have nothing to resist to, so nothing to resist to will possibly help you with your horse resisting to your whip by kicking out.

Goodluck. Might be worth getting an instructor out to help specifically with you on this issue and gettng your horse on the aids. x


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (18 November 2010)

"Dante" - the horse called "Hell" - luvvit!!!  I've known another horse called Dante who was at livery with mine - is this one a skewbald cob by any chance? Tho' I thought he'd gone somewhere near Dartmoor .... sorry I digress.

Yup, my boy did this bucking trick with a normal schooling whip - I think it was a protest about being given the whip, i.e. how dare you correct me, kind of thing.

Soooooo....... I got rid of the schooling whip and got one of those flappy things which make a noise, which has made such a difference. Definitely worth a try IME. All I have to do now is just make a noise on my boot and horse listens up!

The other thing you could do, as someone else has suggested, is to get or make a "whip-whap" thong thing (Michael Peace uses them), which is basically like a long rope which you "whap" over his bum rather than a whip. Something different might just be what's needed here.


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## Steorra (18 November 2010)

I used to ride a very dominant mare who reacted like this - to the whip or to the leg if used strongly.  The more pressure whe was put under the more she would back off the leg, and would kick out in temper if you kept on asking.  The approach I adopted was to 'never get angry but never give in.'  

If I put my leg on and she didn't respond or backed off, she got a sharp flick at the top of her inside hind leg, and another if she kicked out.  I'd keep going until I got the reaction I wanted, then allow her forward (even if she rushed off) and praise lots.  Smacking or kicking was not the way to go, and I found she resented the whip less when it was used low on her quarters than on her belly behind my leg.  

The other thing, and it's obvious but I have to say it - sorry , is to make sure his saddle fits.  You might be allowing him forwards with your hands and seat, but if his saddle pinches then any forward movement will be blocked, and he would have every right to object to being asked to move through his back.


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## Sol (18 November 2010)

Saddle was brand new not more than a few weeks ago, he goes much better in it than his old one, so I know that isn't the problem 

Random point - why does everyone think Dante means devil!? It's actually 'everlasting/enduring' (or similar) in latin I belive  

Thanks for the ideas anyway everyone  I shall persist! 

And no, I didn't buy such a backwards horse, I bought a clever 4yo who has spent 18 months getting cleverer, and lazier! At 4yrs old he wasn't exactly going to show me everything in the short time in which I tried him (also with my arm in cast!) Yet he can also be rather lovely when he wishes - like most horses!


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## Steorra (18 November 2010)

Cos Dante wrote 'The Inferno' I guess . Anyways, hope you figure it out.


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## kirstyl (18 November 2010)

Sol said:



			Saddle was brand new not more than a few weeks ago, he goes much better in it than his old one, so I know that isn't the problem 

Random point - why does everyone think Dante means devil!? It's actually 'everlasting/enduring' (or similar) in latin I belive  

Thanks for the ideas anyway everyone  I shall persist! 

And no, I didn't buy such a backwards horse, I bought a clever 4yo who has spent 18 months getting cleverer, and lazier! At 4yrs old he wasn't exactly going to show me everything in the short time in which I tried him (also with my arm in cast!) Yet he can also be rather lovely when he wishes - like most horses!
		
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Hey, the cleverer they are, the more they try it on.  As I'm sure you know!!! Best of luck, you'll get through it


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## ChloeC418 (18 November 2010)

Well, I didn't mean literally gallop  Dela doesn't do that either  

At the moment we're having real saddle issues... had saddler out the other day, bought it back, after widening it, yesterday (in meantime had borrowed instructor's horse's saddle - she was going really well in it) & I felt as if she was short in front, but mum & saddler said it looked fine, so I was like, ok it must be me then. Today I had my lesson, & she wouldn't stretch, so we went to get the other saddle, and the difference was immediate. She was a forward horse! Even did some 3 times (not that I've ever taught her them & they weren't exactly asked for, I only wanted 1 ) But she felt the best she's ever felt, she apparantly looked fab too (despite vision being severely impaired by rain and darkness @ 5 o'clock!). So will ring saddler tomorrow & see what can we do. I have the feeling it's Dela saying she doesn't like Jaguars, and wants an Ideal  Sorry for the longness of that btw 

I think you should see if you get get past the 'I can't' attitude, and make him realise that 'actually I can - and its not so bad'. Just make him really forward, really off your seat, once he's forawrds, he *should* be better


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## Sol (18 November 2010)

Dante's idea of even canter is 'I am in canter, my legs are just about moving in the correct sequence. You want more? Then get on with it yourself!' (unless there are spooky noises behind, or horses infront!!)

We're going to have a play at weekend, people on the new yard will probably think I'm nuts and he still needs reclipping so will be soooo sweaty o.o But oh well  

And I really hope you fix the saddle problems soon  I know how little fun they are!! And your Jaguar is so lovely!!


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## MissSBird (19 November 2010)

Can't help with the bucking issue, I'm afraid. But my own Baby is of a similar personality, to the point that at one stage he was pretty much ignoring my leg and the whip and trudging around at his own pace.

My instructor had me do something a little bit unconventional. I turned my schooling whip around so it was pointing towards his head, then asked him to walk on. When he didn't respond, he had it wiggled in his eye sight (obviously being very careful not to hit him). We then did this in trot and canter for just 1 session. It got much mroe reaction than using it conventionally was doing, and made a big difference to his response to my leg aid.

It does feel very strange and I understand having a whip so near a horses head would worry a lot of people. I wasn't sure about it, but it semed to work. I should also probably add that my horse is the most laidback baby you'll ever meet, so wasn't likely to become overly phased by it. It's probably something that needs to be judged on personality a bit.


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## JVB (19 November 2010)

It makes me smile how many mares are mentioned in this thread! My mare can also be the same depending on what mood she is in, most of the time we have no probs whatsoever, but then if she's narky and I tap a bit too hard, we get lashing out of back legs or pawing with front legs!


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## aimeetb (19 November 2010)

gnubee said:



			I ride a couple that buck if you smack them with the whip. One of them responds well if you just wave it out to the side (to speed up a trot I kind of wave it in the rythym of the trot, and to back up an aid for a transition I use more of a big swoosh).

The other took a couple of months to convince him that me swishing it didn't mean I was going to smack him. I actually think the bucking is a pain response from being hit hard in the past, as the buck kind of came across to me as wincing away from the whip. Something that did work is tipping it upside down jockey style, and waving it above his neck. I think he didnt associate it with the whipping action in the same way that moving it to the side would, so I didnt get the buck reaction and it made him feel uncomfortable enough to make him go forward.  Eventually this one got used to having the stick moving around through this method, and ultimately I managed to start working with it the right way up again, and then actually using it gently behind my leg to back up an aid.

I did try it on one once who completely freaked out about it though, so would try it first in a secure environment.
		
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Was going to say something similar, I used to ride a stallion schooled to Advanced Medium but touch with a whip and instantaniously MULE would appear! Plant and buck, he hated it, really took offence but if you just showed it to him (turned it forwards towards his head) he would usually respond or if more was needed a bit of a wiggle or swoosh just minding his head of course! x


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