# Leptospirosis vaccination risk



## Clodagh (8 January 2017)

Your thoughts? We don't vaccinate annually but pups always get whatever the vet recommends. I have just been reading up on puppies dying from the lepto jab. We are hopefully getting a pup this year, what are your thoughts? Is lepto an extra one or is it part of the first two?
Last pup, now 2, did have an extra jab at 14 weeks or thereabouts, but I have no idea what that was for.


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## blackcob (8 January 2017)

I know anecdote doesn't = data etc. but the practice I work for introduced the new L4 vaccine almost two years ago now and in that time IIRC there's been one reported adverse reaction - no more so than any other vaccine used, or indeed the L2 used previously.

It's usually given with the DHP at eight weeks and then again four weeks later, with a second DHP in between. 

My decision is admittedly influenced by the fact that mine have to be vaccinated for competition purposes but I do annual lepto and KC, with DHP and rabies every third year, to no ill effect. 

Take care with the sources if you're reading up on it, some of the homeopathic snake oil types hold some bizarre beliefs!


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## Clodagh (8 January 2017)

Thank you for your reply. People like you and Twiggy who work with vets are likely to know about bad reactions.
At the end of the day I trust my vet and would go with what he recommended, if you go on FB groups about it no one on there seems to vaccinate or worm at all. I am glad it works for them but I wouldn't risk it.


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## blackcob (8 January 2017)

I'm glad you can trust your vet, so many of the folk on the FB groups seem actively hostile to theirs and it's a real shame. Even before I worked for mine I knew there were things we probably disagreed on but at least felt we could have a balanced discussion about it. 

The thing that frustrates me is that some of their views are potentially valid - IMO there's a case to be made for titre testing, raw feeding, worm counts etc. - but it's so frequently undermined by beliefs in homeopathy, nosodes, cure-all coconut oil, diatomaceous earth type stuff that the potentially sensible bits often get lost in discussion.


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## Clodagh (8 January 2017)

Having fallen out with most of the small animal vets in the area I am happy with the current bunch. I don't mind arguing with him and asking him to explain decisions, but seeing as I probably keep his pension plan going single handedly I hope I can rate his opinion.


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## twiggy2 (8 January 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Thank you for your reply. People like you and Twiggy who work with vets are likely to know about bad reactions.
At the end of the day I trust my vet anby d would go with what he recommended, if you go on FB groups about it no one on there seems to vaccinate or worm at all. I am glad it works for them but I wouldn't risk it.
		
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We have been vaccinating with the L4 vaccine for almost 3 yrs and we have not had any reactions, there was a very emotive and incorrect article published but I can't remember what paper it was, there was a reply written that we had up at work and I believe that was written by the RVC,  clearly this was a little while ago but I will try to find it at work tomorrow if it is still there but basically it has been proven to be no more risky than other vacs.
For a farm type lifestyle it is a good vaccine to have as obviously rats and waterways create a higher risk of leptospirosis.
My rescue lurcher had the L4 when I got her last year on advice from work and my own research.


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## MotherOfChickens (8 January 2017)

It can be a bit shocking when you start reading some of this stuff even if you're a cynic. I was after an alternative to spot ons for Quarrie as he's reacted badly to them-I opted for Bravecto but after googling it I was a bit OMG what have I done! Even when you know that its unlikely to be true, when it comes to your own dog its a bit of a worry!


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## hobo (8 January 2017)

If it is any help my friends dog got Lepto and has been very ill and is still on tablets 6 months later so I think getting the vaccine is worth it. They live in the town but she walked her on a park that was flooded in the big storms.


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## Clodagh (8 January 2017)

Within reason we try not to overuse chemicals, we use no flea controls, as they never have fleas, we worm maybe 3 times a year and we don't vaccinate after one year old. 
I always feel though a pup getting out and about at the start of it's life may need some help. Thanks all.


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## MurphysMinder (8 January 2017)

I have seen some of the reports of adverse reactions to Lepto 4,  and as mine had been done with Lepto 2 until their latest booster I admit to being slightly concerned. I asked my vets who, I have total faith in, and they reassured me that there had been no more adverse reactions than with any other vaccine .    That was good enough for me,  if I didn't trust my vets I wouldn't use them.


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## {97702} (8 January 2017)

I had all my lot done with Lepto 4 last year - it never occurred to me to look for reports about it first TBH, my vets recommended it as we had had quite a few lepto cases locally and that was good enough for me.

I must admit I find the concept of not vaccinating dogs strange, probably because I have rescue dogs and am required to vaccinate them annually as part of their adoption


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## MurphysMinder (8 January 2017)

Lévrier;13456307 said:
			
		


			I had all my lot done with Lepto 4 last year - it never occurred to me to look for reports about it first TBH, my vets recommended it as we had had quite a few lepto cases locally and that was good enough for me.

I must admit I find the concept of not vaccinating dogs strange, probably because I have rescue dogs and am required to vaccinate them annually as part of their adoption 

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The problem is that if fewer people are vaccinating then we are likely to see the diseases dogs were once protected against occurring again   Those who can remember dogs dying of distemper,  or the terrifying way parvo killed litters of puppies back in the 70s do not want that scenario to return.


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## SusieT (8 January 2017)

Do you titre test instead?
It is irresponsible to only do puppy vaccinations - they only last a certain length of time - if you are worried about ' over vaccination' there is a perfectly vali option which is the titre test..


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## Clodagh (8 January 2017)

SusieT said:



			Do you titre test instead?
It is irresponsible to only do puppy vaccinations - they only last a certain length of time - if you are worried about ' over vaccination' there is a perfectly vali option which is the titre test..
		
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No, we follow the hunt model and treat them like hounds. They all seem healthy enough, bar kennel cough, which they seem to get a bit reguarly (hounds, not our dogs). Worth noting though, thank you.


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## {97702} (8 January 2017)

MurphysMinder said:



			The problem is that if fewer people are vaccinating then we are likely to see the diseases dogs were once protected against occurring again   Those who can remember dogs dying of distemper,  or the terrifying way parvo killed litters of puppies back in the 70s do not want that scenario to return.
		
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Yep I totally agree with this - parvo is still a major problem, I have (thank goodness) never seen a case of distemper or lepto but would personally always vaccinate.  I suppose it is the same as chicken pox, measles etc becoming more common again because parents are reluctant to vaccinate children


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## SusieT (8 January 2017)

Lets hope you never get a case- I have no sympathy for anyone who has to spend hundreds or lose a young dog through preventable disease for the sake of 30 quid for a vaccination.


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## the shadster (8 January 2017)

SusieT said:



			Lets hope you never get a case- I have no sympathy for anyone who has to spend hundreds or lose a young dog through preventable disease for the sake of 30 quid for a vaccination.
		
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Yes but the real argument is between sensible vaccination and over vaccination. I struggle to believe a dog needs vaccinating once a year, every year throughout its life. The pharmaceutical companies have a vested interest in recommending yearly vacc's as do the vets that administer them. 
How come as humans we are only vaccinated as children and maybe one or two boosters/additional exotic disease vaccinations?
The cynic in me can't help thinking it's a bit of a money spinner


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## planete (9 January 2017)

I asked my vets about boosters being given every year.  Most vets nowadays give a booster every year but it does not include every available vaccine but only the ones that need renewing that year according to the length of efficacy of each one.


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## Leo Walker (9 January 2017)

the shadster said:



			Yes but the real argument is between sensible vaccination and over vaccination. I struggle to believe a dog needs vaccinating once a year, every year throughout its life. The pharmaceutical companies have a vested interest in recommending yearly vacc's as do the vets that administer them. 
How come as humans we are only vaccinated as children and maybe one or two boosters/additional exotic disease vaccinations?
The cynic in me can't help thinking it's a bit of a money spinner
		
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It is. The vaccines last way longer than a year. They are only supposed to be repeated every 3 years.

I choose not to vaccinate my puppy with Lepto. Its not commonly seen in this area, it only lasts 10 months or so and only covers a handful of strains when there are considerably more. I decided the risk wasnt worth the benefit. He was given all the other puppy vaccinations, with the exception of kennel cough, for reasons similar to lepto. He along with my other dog will be titre tested at 7yrs old. 

I'm not relying on herd immunity or putting any dogs at risks. I'm vaccinating my dogs, I'm just not over vaccinating them.


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## Clodagh (9 January 2017)

FrankieCob said:



			It is. The vaccines last way longer than a year. They are only supposed to be repeated every 3 years.

I choose not to vaccinate my puppy with Lepto. Its not commonly seen in this area, it only lasts 10 months or so and only covers a handful of strains when there are considerably more. I decided the risk wasnt worth the benefit. He was given all the other puppy vaccinations, with the exception of kennel cough, for reasons similar to lepto. He along with my other dog will be titre tested at 7yrs old. 

I'm not relying on herd immunity or putting any dogs at risks. I'm vaccinating my dogs, I'm just not over vaccinating them.
		
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 Very interesting. I shall definately ask my vet directly and not just follow the herd this year then.


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## MurphysMinder (9 January 2017)

I only vaccinate for lepto annually   the others are every 3 years.  The heeler does have KC every year as he is very prone to respiratory issues and goes to competitions.   He managed to still get kc last year and be quite poorly with is but hopefully the vaccine gives him some protection.


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## Aru (9 January 2017)

Ive seen more dogs sick from diseases that are preventable by vaccination then I have ever seen adverse vaccination reactions.

None of the vaccine reactions I've encountered were fatal. Several of the parvo, lepto and distemper cases were fatal....some due to finances,some due to the disease....all were horrible experiences for everyone involved.

I'm a massive believer in vaccinating...according to local risk.
We do kennel cough and influenza yearly and parvo distemper adenovirus on the recommended 3 yearly schedule.
I now live in a low risk area for lepto so our practice doesn't even carry the lepto vaccine. 

When I worked at home l4 had come out and we were boostering all animals with the new vacc....personally Ive never seen a vaccine reaction from the l4.... the rare ones I've seen were from l2 and the dhp...and like I said...most reactions were mild and all were treatable...

The lepto vaccine however is an annual vaccine for a bacteria not  virus' like the dhp vaccine.
It isnt as brilliant vaccine as it doesnt last as long as the viral vaccines but it's better then nothing. 
I used to give it to my own dog in the spring as she was in the waterways and killing small creatures ie most at risk during spring/summer autumn..
had we had local lepto outbreaks or cases in our clinic she would have been boostered if the vacc was more the 6 months gone....personally I would much rather overvaccinate a healthy dog then risk leptospirosis infection..
Its not the best vaccine in the world....but given it does prevent several strains of a Zoonotic disease I do think its worth giving!

I also give the kennel cough vaccine...again its not brilliant...but its better then nothing..and given kennel cough is extremely common, highly infectious and can make some dogs very ill...even having the very nasty strains covered makes me feel better..

If a dog has a negative reaction or an immune disorder we will often change our vaccination schedules and recommendations...but given the rarity of theses issues I don't have any guilt in recommending vaccinating all healthy animals for transmissbale diaease as the overall herd immunity helps protect those who cannot be vaccinated.

Its individual choice but I'd rather play ot safe as I always worry about worse case scenarios for things.

I feel very much the same about tick prevention where I live....parlysis ticks here kill if they are not detected and treated as they paralyse animals from the backend up...shutting the respiratory muscles off as it moves upwards being the main issue..

Prevention is reliable and available via antiparasitics like bravecto or nexgard.
Treatment however is extremely expensive as the tick antitoxin serum is only made in Oz..as its the only place in the world with this issue....and as these dogs cannot eat drink or move well until the toxin is broken down in their bodies...in a mild case takes around 3 days...sedation, nursing and iv fluids are needed to prevent dehydration and other issues...some take longer...others worsen even after antitoxin and need to be ventilated or pts due to to respiratory failure from the toxin shutting down the resp muscles....basically costs add up quickly when your dealing with a tick paralysis issue..
Im quite happy to take the risks and pump my animals full of pesticides to prevent the issue....rather then watch them struggling half paralysed and heading into respiratory failure from then toxin...and have to pump them full of antitoxin...which as its own potential severe reaction issues...
Experience has taught ne theres a lot to be said for prevention in chemical form!
Thankfully uptake this year has been good and our tick victims are dropping in number....only had 25 or so cases so far this season.

Again of course...I've euthanised more animals for tick paralysis then I've ever seen adverse reactions to nexgard or bravecto...so that will skew my perspective as well....

No one ever expects bad things to happen to their animal....whereas I see the bad and unexpectes things happening to people pets daily. 

It makes me a lot more wary of these diseases..they arent just words and a warning to me... they are images embedded in my head of the dogs I've met or treated with the diseases
..especially  ones who didnt make it...though il admit there are so many parvo pups they blurr a little...and have no desire to have my own pets in the bone pile in my head of bad outcomes....its bad enough having to put your own animals to sleep to give them release from old age and pain....I dont think I'd handle the feeling of guilt well if it was down to something I could have prevented.

Still I do probably monthly have people who will tell me chemicals are bad and they are not using them on their animal....and that dont I realise that vaccines are unnessecary and a scam for us and the kennels to make money..or that parasite treatments like nexgard and bravecto are dangerous and kill dogs...because google searches and facebook groups tell them so.....and in those situtations while I disagree, I understand why the wariness is there and why people have reservations about these issues...sometimes bad reactions do happen! and if your dog is that unlikley one who has a reaction..it is terrible and terrifying ...but its still rare... esp compared to some of the diseases being prevented.And yes yearly vaccines are expensive but treatment  of these disease are always more expensive!and a yearly vaccine includes a health check to check that there are no other underlying issues as well.

All vets can do is advise on the options availiable according to what we have been taught and the local areaknown risks.Its entirely up to the pets owner to decide what they want to do to their animal.

Personally mine gets all the jabs(she even got rabies for her passport while decisons were being made)....and if my mutt had or does! come to oz...she'd be full of pesticides to....because in my personal and professional opinion that, plus the obvious yearly exam to check for abnormalities,is the safest option for keeping and animal in good health.
I want my pets to live as long as they can with a good quality of life.

Titre testing will be the way forward in the future I think...but given the expense of testing at the moment I cant see it taking off quickly.
Though given how often the rabies vacc seemed to produce low titres and need to be boostered when we used to check it for export before passport rules chnaged...I would love to see how many indiduals are not responding versus how many stay high for years....its all very much down to the individual dog as well as the vaccine afterall!

Apologies for the long ramble Im a bit sleep deprived at the minute so having difficulty condensing my points!


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## MurphysMinder (9 January 2017)

Very good post Aru,  thank you.


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## {97702} (9 January 2017)

Great to hear from an expert, thanks Aru


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## Cinnamontoast (9 January 2017)

Some of the vaccines last three years: so why are we told to vaccinate using the same vaccines annually (according to my dogs' schedules)? And I was told lepto lasts 6 months only. Surely there are multiple strains of kennel cough, so also pointless to use one when the dog may catch another. Even the second set of puppy vaccines is 'just in case' the first lot didn't kick in, something to do with maternal antibodies....?


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## blackcob (9 January 2017)

I don't know any vets who advise core vaccines annually, they're usually given every third year. Duration of immunity for lepto is variable - would refer back to Aru on that one - but having seen dogs hospitalised with it I'd still take six months cover over none. And yes the KC vacc is somewhat limited in that it also doesn't cover all strains, I consider it sort of analagous to the human flu vacc in that respect. Admittedly I never used to bother with it until the dogs needed it for competition, though I have an annual flu vacc myself (habit as ex-NHS staff!).


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## LD&S (9 January 2017)

Thank fully my dog Nutty was the exception then, nearly lost him 3 times, temperature of 42.6 and lost the ability to walk. 
We took the decision not to have our other dog vaccinated and vet recommended not having Nutty vaccinated ever.
it took Nutty over 8 months before he was pretty much back to normal.


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## Aru (9 January 2017)

The kennel cough vaccine protects for some of the most common nasty strains within the group of bugs we label as kennel cough.
Because kennel cough is basically a syndrome and diagnosed on clinical signs-history hacking productive cough etc and has multiple possible bugs involved including a type of nasty bacteria its not possible to vaccine for all of them....we stimulate the immune system for the worse and hope that the immunity from those will lessen the overall disease process of the dog comes into contact with disease. 

Like I said its not the ideal situation...but it is better then nothing...and again the herd immunity lessens the chance of it spreading like wildfire through communities and having most dogs vaccinated helps protect the sick and very old the young who sometimes cannot be vaccinated and who are unusually worse affected by the disease. 

Kennel cough rarely kills but is is uncomfortable and in animals with underlying problems it can progress into severe pneumonia.
Part of the issue is that when theres a viral element involved is very difficult to treat.
bacteria respond to antibiotics..virus' dont. So we can only really give supportive care,antibioitcs to stop secondary bacterial bugs jumping onto compromised lungs and hope the animals immune system responds and is able to take on the viral components....having been stimulated for viral components via vaccination helps in those cases and usually prevents the severe disease ever occuring.

Healthy dogs usually only catch it when immunosuppressed or stressed(like when kennelled) its the old the young and the already sick who get it bad...I havent yet met a vaccinated dogs ending up with pneumonia needing xrays and hospitalisation from kennel cough....Though apparently the nasty battersea strain is in a league of its own and can do this.Personally I havent met that strain yet.

Again its a case of every little helps in my mind.
The vaccine seems to prevent severe disease in most animals but not the hacking productive cough and mild discomfort....still better then nothing in my eyes.


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## Aru (9 January 2017)

The puppy vaccines are different.....basically most mothers will pass on a certain level of protection to their puppies in the form of maternal antibodies.

These antibodies start to reduce anywhere from 6 weeks to 14 weeks depending on several factors like previous exposure to disease,milk and colostrum quality,maternal and genetic immunity-some animals just are poor at producing antibodies and these drop off quickly and strangely breed-black and tan breeds esp rotties and gsd for some reason produce exceptionally strong maternal immunity and as a result these are most likely to catch parvo at the 13 14 week mark then any other breed..even if they have been vaccinated on the normal schedule.

When we vaccine we are stimulating the immune systen to recognise a threat and eliminate it. Basically when maternal antibodies are in the system they deal with the threat and as a result the puppies own system does not learn to respond as it hasnt really been properly exposed....by vaccinating on a set schedule in time with when most animals have lost their maternal immunity we try and cover all the pups in the spectrum. Some will respond to the 6 week vacc as there immunity will have already dropped...others will only respond to the 12/14 week vaccines as in the earlier cases they still had mums protection in their systems....we cant tell where each puppy is on the spectrum so we take all into account when we do the puppy schedules.
Thats why there are so many boosters initially and thats why pups arent considered covered for parvo esp until after the full puppy course.....

Some individuals of course will never respond or respond badly and get sick from the vaccines meaning we either split them or stop vaccinating completely-depending on the severity of the reaction-LDand S your poor boy is one of these rare creatures and that sounds like the most extreme reaction I've heard of so yes he would never be vaccinated again in our practice....but the herd immunity from everyone else is usually what helps these and the unvaccinated survive. 

Unless your other dog is genetically related (some breeds and families seem to be genetically predisposed to vaccine reactions-which is very very bad for those animals as they are also going to be the ones at risk in the future and bad in general as those genes spread and reduce the amount of animals in the herd that cannot be vaccinated--- On a side note it really bothers me when breeders still breed animals that they say cannot have vaccines due to reactions... knowing they and their puppies are likely to be unable to be protected from the diseases in the future ....and then act like its the vaccines fault when their entire genetic line seems to be predisposed to reaction and therefore will be at risk of parvo and other diseases as they recommend against vaccinations due to said reaction but can't see the connection between the two...sorry rant aside il get back to the point..  

Personally I would still titre test and vaccinate  the other dog if required as they are the one thats most likely to pass disease onto your reaction dog....but I understand that having seen a bad reaction most owners will never want to jab ANY of their animals again after...as seeing a severe  reaction is terrifying and a terrible experience....but its still very rare thankfully.

The reactions I've seen are vomiting,lethargy and fevers and 2 cases of facial swelling....thats in around 7 years of seeing practice and almost 5 years working....we vaccinate several animals daily...and in all that time like I said those are the reactions I've seen.

Ive heard of two immune related disease that occured after vaccination from other colleagues...and in thoses cases the vaccine companies covered the treatments IN CASE they were related to the vaccine...and again...all the animals survived. And those dogs were from breeds that are genetically predisposed to immune related issues at the age they had a vaccine reaction...

In general it is still quite safe to vaccinate.


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## Aru (10 January 2017)

In my mind its a like human vaccines....the likes of reactions like guillain barre do exist and are a possible vaccine reaction....and that would be horrific if it happended to me or anyone in my family if you were that unluncky one in a million chance......but tetanus/ cholera/hepatitis/typhoid/rabies were much more likely to happen to me when I was travelling and kill me or make me severely ill so I got the jabs knowing the risks of reaction exist....as they are pretty unlikely.

Nothing in life is 100 precent risk free....its all just degrees of risk and danger.


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## MurphysMinder (10 January 2017)

I had a GSD who developed immune mediated polyarthritis which MAY have been down to her boosters .  We couldn't be sure as she had a few other problems already going on bless her,  but made the decision with the vets that she would have no more boosters,  she was 6 at the time   It didn't stop me carrying on vaccinating other dogs.


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## MotherOfChickens (10 January 2017)

I do remember distemper being a problem in the 70s when I was a kid. We also had parvo puppies brought into the practices I've worked at in the late 80s, early 90s-a smell you don't forget! 

I work in animal vaccine development so unlikely to argue against it-Quarrie had everything and he's recently had kennel cough too as there's lots of it about in our area right now.  Its about risk assessment and when it comes to our animals, we all do what we think best. Like ticks and fleas, I never had a problem with fleas for years and didnt need to treat. I currently live somewhere where there should be lots of ticks but in three years, I've not had a dog come in with one-compared to living down south or in East Scotland where my dogs often did.

I do think social media amplifies the bad reactions-its too easy for people to say 'friend of a friend's dog/ I heard that/sign this petition' etc


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## Marco247 (1 March 2017)

I was a "non believer" until it happened to our dog 2 years ago.We don't now vaccinate for Lepto as the risk of adverse reactions is too high and there's no real benefit.
Unfortunatly in the UK we drag said pooch to the Vets and don't even know what we are asking them to do other than "a jab"
It's common practice and this is a quote from Duramune "Vets have a fill them full of it attitude" Yes a lot do but when a vaccine costs around £3 and your legally allowed to stick a needle in a dog and charge a healthy profit on top then why not.
Customer doesn't know or have sometimes any inclination until it goes wrong and then they pay again.
It's not until then however that research is done and you realise the Lepto vac is a waste of time, unnessary and doesn't work in most cases.
Luckily now with social media people are becoming more aware and even the reports to the VMD have nearly doubled in the last couple of years but as most people don't know how to report an adverse reaction and Vets only report when they've managed to stick the needle in themselves.No Vet would admit that a product they had administered caused harm to an animal, if they did off to Court they would go.
I'm not anti vaccination but I am anti over vaccination. At least the Councils over the next couple of years are adopting the CIEH Model Boarding Kennels Licence 2016 which clearly states that Titre Testing (a test to prove immunity) can be done and results given instead of re vaccination for DHP.


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