# please show me pictures of your horse's head



## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

Please can you post or point me to pictures of horses' heads without a head collar or bridle on?

My horse with the head traumas has developed swollen veins on his cheeks. I know these are not normal for him, but I need to know if they are normal at all, because I've never seen them, that I remember, on any other resting horse. If you could tell me what breed the horse is too, that will help.

Thank you.


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## Fides (8 May 2014)

I'm of the mind that a vet's opinion would be better given the history of your horse.


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## Clava (8 May 2014)

TB aged about 10 here


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

Fides said:



			I'm of the mind that a vet's opinion would be better given the history of your horse.
		
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I already have it. How stupid do you think I am? My vet's opinion is to put the horse down of the non licensed pain killers we are about to give him do not work, or if the pain returns when they stop. He cannot be kept on them for life because the effect wears off and the dose has to be increased.  But thanks for your support anyway.


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

Clava said:



			TB aged about 10 here 










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Thank you. The viens you can see on yours are probably twice the size on Ace, but my memory of that they weren't there at all before a week ago.


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## Elsiecat (8 May 2014)

Thoroughbred. On this picture she was 14 (but a week off being 15).


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## Fides (8 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I already have it. How stupid do you think I am? My vets opinion is to put the horse down of the nnn licensed pain killers we are about to give him do not work. But thanks for your support anyway.
		
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That's a bit uncalled for.

I'd follow the vet's advice


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## Clava (8 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Thank you. The viens you can see on yours are probably twice the size on Ace, but my memory of that they weren't there at all before a week ago.
		
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Recently I bought Belle (the TB) in and also thought her veins looked bigger than normal, that day she had a mild episode of headshaking (which is something we have largely overcome, but I had taken her off the salt which does the trick while she was on antibiotics).


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

Fides said:



			That's a bit uncalled for.

I'd follow the vet's advice 

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Uncalled for?

When your post suggested I was failing to obtain veterinary support for a horse which needs it?

I think not.


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

Clava said:



			Recently I bought Belle (the TB) in and also thought her veins looked bigger than normal, that day she had a mild episode of headshaking (which is something we have largely overcome, but I had taken her off the salt which does the trick while she was on antibiotics).
		
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How interesting. I'm not sure if you are aware, but two head fractures have left him with trigeminal nerve problems, which are often what cause head shaking, and he is a headshaker in everything except that he does not shake his head much. And I recently gave him a lump of rock salt that he is attacking with a vengeance.


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## paddi22 (8 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Uncalled for?

When your post suggested I was failing to obtain veterinary support for a horse which needs it?

I think not.
		
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in fairness, you never mentioned you had called vet already. theres tons of posts here where people ask advice and haven't thought of calling vet, so its not out of the ordinary.


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## Clava (8 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			How interesting. I'm not sure if you are aware, but two head fractures have left him with trigeminal nerve problems, which are often what cause head shaking, and he is a headshaker in everything except that he does not shake his head much. And I recently gave him a lump of rock salt that he is attacking with a vengeance.
		
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Interesting. Yes, I feed salt to reduce potassium spikes which are linked to issues with the trigeminal nerve misfiring. She doesn't touch a salt lick and can't get enough, after removing all clover and feeding salt I got her down to just two days shaking last year (usually a couple of months) and this year we had that short bout (of an hour or so) and nothing since putting her back on the salt.


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## YasandCrystal (8 May 2014)

OP have you taken a look at the Turmeric user group on facebook at all? I recommended turmeric for your new horse with the sarcoids. Turmeric is a powerful natural antiseptic, analgesic, antiinflammatory, antioxidant, it speeds up wound healing and is antiarthritic to name but a few of it's benefits. I have been using it on all of my horses - one has aggressive ringbone, another has chronic SI dysfunction and another has age related changes and windgalls. The windgalls have gone and the mobility in the old mare is amazing. The other 2 are moving so much better also. I take it myself for shoulder pain. There are some amazing stories of the results people have had using turmeric as a supplement and it forms the basis of many of the veterinary produced and herbalist produced remedy supplements.


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

paddi22 said:



			in fairness, you never mentioned you had called vet already. theres tons of posts here where people ask advice and haven't thought of calling vet, so its not out of the ordinary.
		
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In fairness, she could have asked.

For goodness sake guys, can you not make allowances for how damned stressful this situation is for me, to have to watch a horse in pain day after day so that I can prove to myself and others that he is too ill to be allowed to live?????

I didn't ask for advice. I asked for photos. If you can't give me those then please, please leave me alone!


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## PolarSkye (8 May 2014)

paddi22 said:



			in fairness, you never mentioned you had called vet already. theres tons of posts here where people ask advice and haven't thought of calling vet, so its not out of the ordinary.
		
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To be fair, CPT is a seasoned poster and has proven that she knows what she is doing wrt her horses, and Fides has been a tad "random" of late with some of her responses.  I can absolutely see how CPT is feeling more than a little raw and sensitive and could have taken what Fides said the wrong way.

P


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## PolarSkye (8 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			In fairness, she could have asked.

For goodness sake guys, can you not make allowances for how damned stressedul this situation is for me, to have to watch a horse in pain day after day so that I can prove to myself and others that he is too ill to be allowed to live?????

I didn't ask for advice. I asked for photos. If you can't give me those then please, please leave me alone!
		
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And breathe.  This must be so stressful for you.  Will dig up some pics for you.

P


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## Clava (8 May 2014)

YasandCrystal said:



			OP have you taken a look at the Turmeric user group on facebook at all? I recommended turmeric for your new horse with the sarcoids. Turmeric is a powerful natural antiseptic, analgesic, antiinflammatory, antioxidant, it speeds up wound healing and is antiarthritic to name but a few of it's benefits. I have been using it on all of my horses - one has aggressive ringbone, another has chronic SI dysfunction and another has age related changes and windgalls. The windgalls have gone and the mobility in the old mare is amazing. The other 2 are moving so much better also. I take it myself for shoulder pain. There are some amazing stories of the results people have had using turmeric as a supplement and it forms the basis of many of the veterinary produced and herbalist produced remedy supplements.
		
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I was also feeding turmeric in the vague hope it would help, but I am almost certain it caused an ulcer and peritonitis (and was extremely ill)  which is what I was giving her antibiotics for. I nolonger supplement her turmeric.


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## YasandCrystal (8 May 2014)

Clava said:



			Interesting. Yes, I feed salt to reduce potassium spikes which are linked to issues with the trigeminal nerve misfiring. She doesn't touch a salt lick and can't get enough, after removing all clover and feeding salt I got her down to just two days shaking last year (usually a couple of months) and this year we had that short bout (of an hour or so) and nothing since putting her back on the salt.
		
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The interesting thing is that you cannot feed enough salt via a lick - it will not suffice. I feed all of my horses 2 tablespoons of sea salt per day (I buy it in bulk) This website explains potassium imbalance and it's effects very well.

http://www.calmhealthyhorses.com/

My WB


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

Clava said:



			I was also feeding turmeric in the vague hope it would help, but I am almost certain it caused an ulcer and peritonitis (and was extremely ill)  which is what I was giving her antibiotics for. I nolonger supplement her turmeric.
		
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I was just about to research turmeric, but this horse is very prior to ulcers, so thanks for that info.


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## criso (8 May 2014)

Bay tb v1

Sorry about the headcollar but it is thin








Bay tb v2.0


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## PolarSkye (8 May 2014)

Try this one:








P


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## Clava (8 May 2014)

YasandCrystal said:



			The interesting thing is that uyou cannot feed enough salt via a lick - it will not suffice. I feed all of my horses 2 tablespoons of sea salt per day (I buy it in bulk) This website explains potassium imbalance and it's effects very well.

http://www.calmhealthyhorses.com/

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I said I don't use a salt lick. I feed her salt.


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## YasandCrystal (8 May 2014)

Clava said:



			I said I don't use a salt lick. I feed her salt.
		
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I know you did I was just using your reply to state how interesting the whole topic of salt and minerals is. The OP uses a lick, hence my statement that this does not suffice.  I have recommended feeding salt to many people with itchy horses, spooky horses with great results.


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## Clava (8 May 2014)

YasandCrystal said:



			I know you did I was just using your reply to state how interesting the whole topic of salt and minerals is. The OP uses a lick, hence my statement that this does not suffice.  I have recommended feeding salt to many people with itchy horses, spooky horses with great results.
		
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Oh right  yes I totally agree, salt licks just don't do it.

I find it sad that I know of a few headshakers and the owners all say that it is "hayfever" and are not prepared to try just removing from grass (although Belle is fine on anything not too rich) and feeding salt, it is a simple option worth trying and it has stopped my mare from headshaking which at one point I thought might require her to be pts.


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

YasandCrystal said:



			I know you did I was just using your reply to state how interesting the whole topic of salt and minerals is. The OP uses a lick, hence my statement that this does not suffice.  I have recommended feeding salt to many people with itchy horses, spooky horses with great results.
		
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Just started a rock salt lick and not heard before of a link between head shaking and salt, but I find it very interesting how much he is attacking the lick. I will add salt to his feed, and stop feeding alfalfa, but his problems started with physical injuries, so I am not expecting any miracles.


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

Thanks for the photos people. It's pretty clear so far that his veins are abnormal even for a very TB horse; just another indicator of how much trouble he's in to add to the list


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## Clava (8 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Just started a rock salt lick and not heard before of a link between head shaking and salt, but I find it very interesting how much he is attacking the lick. I will add salt to his feed, and stop feeding alfalfa, but his problems started with physical injuries, so I am not expecting any miracles.
		
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There are many links to salt and headshaking on the phoenix forum I think. I've read quite a few discussions and articles on it in my search for an answer, I should have made a list of them all.

Here is one thread which I also talked about Belle on http://ihdg.proboards.com/thread/126659


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## fatpiggy (8 May 2014)

Trigeminal nerve pain is horrendous. I'm afraid I would agree with your vet. Sorry.


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## YasandCrystal (8 May 2014)

Good luck OP - everything is worth a try. That website talks of urine ph being > 8 also in head shakers, maybe worth testing too for confirmation.

http://www.calmhealthyhorses.com/neuro/head_flick.html


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## Lynsey&Smartie (8 May 2014)

Not the best photo as it is under lights;-


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## Auslander (8 May 2014)

23 year old TB mare


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## Circe (8 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			In fairness, she could have asked.

For goodness sake guys, can you not make allowances for how damned stressful this situation is for me, to have to watch a horse in pain day after day so that I can prove to myself and others that he is too ill to be allowed to live?????

I didn't ask for advice. I asked for photos. If you can't give me those then please, please leave me alone!
		
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OP, what ever you decide, please don't feel that you have to prove any thing to anyone else.
Its nothing to do with anyone but you and possibly your vet.
You don't really strike me as someone who asks for hugs, but I'm going to send you some anyway
Kx


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## Auslander (8 May 2014)

Jus to add to pic above CPT. This mare has a serious heart condition - and I would say her facial veins are enlarged because of that


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## Sheep (8 May 2014)

I'll post links as the pics are on FB and will probably come up huge. 

18 yo ISH:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.....0-9/524936_10152287586107837_438854874_n.jpg 

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/428533_10151758100262837_1059344153_n.jpg

11 yo ISH:

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/424930_10150842766022837_1492476632_n.jpg


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## Auslander (8 May 2014)

Fides said:



			That's a bit uncalled for.
		
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No it wasn't. she didn't ask for an opinion on her horse. She asked for pictures of other horses to compare.
Wind your neck in...


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## Circe (8 May 2014)

Appaloosa, 33yrs old








tb, 6yrs in this photo ( excuse the bucket )


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## Meowy Catkin (8 May 2014)

This photo was taken to track the healing after she had a lump removed - hence the dry blood etc...





Anglo-arab







Arab







Arab


CPT - I'm so sorry that your boy is still having a dreadful time. It must be so tough for you. I really hope that he improves soon.


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## Regandal (8 May 2014)

Sorry to hear he's not improving.  Magnetic therapy can often help with pain, what about something like this - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-full-...e-halter-/251463411452?_trksid=p2054897.l4275


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## YasandCrystal (8 May 2014)

Regandal said:



			Sorry to hear he's not improving.  Magnetic therapy can often help with pain, what about something like this - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-full-...e-halter-/251463411452?_trksid=p2054897.l4275

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OP I have one of these - happy to send and loan it to you if you would like me to - just PM me.


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## digitalangel (8 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			How interesting. I'm not sure if you are aware, but two head fractures have left him with trigeminal nerve problems, which are often what cause head shaking, and he is a headshaker in everything except that he does not shake his head much. And I recently gave him a lump of rock salt that he is attacking with a vengeance.
		
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Hi Cptrayes - my boy was born with deviation the muzzle and therefore is a headshaker due to nerve problems ( one of his ears is also mostly paralysed ) if you want any more info on how i manage him PM me.


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## ann-jen (8 May 2014)

Horse on the left is 19yr old Anglo Arab cross and horse on the right is an 8yr old Anglo-European warmblood (but everyone thinks she's a tb lol)


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## digitalangel (8 May 2014)

23 year old KWPN







16 year old welsh b







pic of my horse who has trig nerve problems/paralysis due to muzzle devation ( cant see it from the side so included a front pic )


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

Auslander said:



			23 year old TB mare






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Thank you. He looks quite like that, with the fan of muscles showing when he eats. But he's eight, with quite flesh covered cheeks 

He has just bitten me for the first time ever. That is so not his personality. I am trying to judge how much pain he's in from day to day so I know when to call it quits. He has to have a chance to heal himself first, though, the second fracture is only two months old. I wish he could talk.

Thanks for your help everyone, I've got enough pictures now to know the veins are definitely not within any normal bounds for a horse of his age and type.


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

fatpiggy said:



			Trigeminal nerve pain is horrendous. I'm afraid I would agree with your vet. Sorry.
		
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Thank you FP.  This is why I will not let him carry on much longer. Human sufferers are telling me that the pain is unbearable, and to have bitten me when I went to do up his rug, I think he is trying to tell me the same thing. He will have pain killers from when they arrive, but I will not allow him more than a few days after they wear off, or don't work at all, before I end this.


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## Goldenstar (8 May 2014)

It sounds just awful ,
I have nothing to add but to say I am sad you and he are in this situation .


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## Holly Hocks (8 May 2014)

11 year old TB mare post serious sinus surgery - now left with trigeminal nerve issues as a result






18 year old TB 






2 year old native x


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (8 May 2014)

Just quickly re tumeric , I researched it a lot but decided against due to CS's ulcer issues. I would not feed it to an ulcer prone horse.


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## zigzag (8 May 2014)

Ditto the turmeric and ulcers, please don't feed him it.  

I knew a mare whose face veins engorged, her temperament changed as well, this happened over a week, however this was due to ragwort poisoning (rescue mare, didn't get ragwort from me) and her liver failing causing brain damage. Bristol Vet hospital said veins engorge when under stress whether from pain or work and heart rate increases ( you probably know that .. ) 
Sorry I do not have a picture of the mare, but they were a lot more visible than the pics of the horses shown here. Do you or can you post a pic of him?

Wishing you all the best x


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## doriangrey (8 May 2014)

OP couldn't be more concerned about her horse so back off if you don't have anything constructive to add.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (8 May 2014)

doriangrey said:









OP couldn't be more concerned about her horse so back off if you don't have anything constructive to add.
		
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Rather unnecessary and completely pointless as you aren't a moderator.....people are entitled to ask questions or make any suggestion, the OP is capable of ignoring posts she doesn't find helpful. 

A pic of the problem would be useful for those trying to help.


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## doriangrey (8 May 2014)

Pic of the same mare grazing if that helps OP, the cheek muscles working appear very similar to Auslander's mare who looks to be relaxed in the stable pic.  My mare is also about 21 in the 'relaxed' pic but younger in the grazing pic and no health issues in either.  As to the above post, no I'm not a moderator but then neither are you - and nasty insinuating, malicious posts are not my forte thanks.


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Rather unnecessary and completely pointless as you aren't a moderator.....people are entitled to ask questions or make any suggestion, the OP is capable of ignoring posts she doesn't find helpful.

A pic of the problem would be useful for those trying to help.
		
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I'm not asking for help and I have enough photos now thank you everyone.





To those offering hugs, no I'd never ask for hugs but I'm not going to turn them down either


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## ILuvCowparsely (8 May 2014)

Here is my boy


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

Thanks guys, got enough now. Some lovely horses you people have 

You have answered the question I had about how abnormal it is, plus more about how pronounced his frown is on bad days when it's windy. I know you'd all love to make suggestions and try to save him, but I need you to leave this with me to see through now please.

Thanks very much for your help.


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## Regandal (8 May 2014)

Hope you find a solution CPT, for you ((((((hugs)))))) and for Ace (((((horsey hugs)))))).


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## ILuvCowparsely (8 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Thanks guys, got enough now. Some lovely horses you people have 

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Sending your boy some vibes CPT wish you luck


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## nikkimariet (8 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



*Please can you post or point me to pictures of horses' heads without a head collar or bridle on?*

My horse with the head traumas has developed swollen veins on his cheeks. I know these are not normal for him, but I need to know if they are normal at all, because I've never seen them, that I remember, on any other resting horse. If you could tell me what breed the horse is too, that will *help*.

Thank you.
		
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cptrayes said:



			I'm not asking for help and I have enough photos now thank you everyone.
		
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....????

FWIW, looking at pics of Fig and CS, their veins vary from huge to invisible. Pics I have of either when chewing showing the 'fan of muscles'. Seems pretty normal. I won't post any pics as you have enough.


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

nikkimariet said:



			....????

.
		
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Have you really nothing better to do Nikki?  Like go look up the word 'pedant' in a dictionary maybe?


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## maletto (8 May 2014)

Hi CPT, was going to add a pic of one of my boys' heads but then saw you'd had enough input. Have been lightly following your story and it sounds horrendous to have to go through - one of the worst things of horse (or other animal) ownership to go through is the lack of diagnosis, and I really hope you are able to find a solution soon.


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## Boysy (8 May 2014)

As a sufferer of Trigeminal Neuralgia myself I cannot stress how hideously excruciating and debilitating the pain is, I wouldn't wish it on my worse enemy let alone a horse who cannot have the meds to attempt to control it. Painkillers will not touch it in the slightest, not even morphine as the pain is from the nerve direct to the brain and only anticonvulsant drugs work to block the signals. There is a very valid reason it is nick-named the suicide disease.

CP - I hope to god your poor horse hasn't got TN, I wouldn't even begin to imagine how it could be treated in an animal successfully.


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## charlie76 (8 May 2014)

Their veins will vary from breed to breed, temperature, activity they are doing etc. I don't think you can compare your horse to others tbh.


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## zigzag (8 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



*I'm not asking for help* and I have enough photos now thank you everyone.
		
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You were asking for help, otherwise you would not have posted... Why do you jump down peoples throats when they offer suggestions you don't like? 

Still think the horse could do with an x-ray, I certainly wouldn't think of shooting him til I spent a couple of hundred quid on an x-ray, especially as you said previously you have spent a fortune on him...  seems a waste of money now all the KS stuff you had done... 

And now you can jump down my throat because I gave an opinion.


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## nikkimariet (8 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Have you really nothing better to do Nikki?  Like go look up the word 'pedant' in a dictionary maybe?
		
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I don't think it was a pedantic remark C. You asked for help. Then denied you did.

Regardless, it seems you've got the answers you wanted. Good luck.


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

charlie76 said:



			Their veins will vary from breed to breed, temperature, activity they are doing etc. I don't think you can compare your horse to others tbh.
		
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I was reasonably certain that I had never seen his face look like it does now when at rest and supposedly relaxed. I wanted other people's photos because I couldn't find enough on Google, to reassure me that I was remembering correctly that for my horse, who I know intimately as he lives at home with me, it was not normal. Most other horses are the same as I remember him looking.  In that respect, photos helped me.


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

nikkimariet said:



			I don't think it was a pedantic remark C. You asked for help. Then denied you did.

Regardless, it seems you've got the answers you wanted. Good luck.
		
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You know full well that the help I requested was photos and the help I denied requesting was help in finding a solution to his problems.

But you carry on being a pedant if you really have nothing better to do with your time.


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

zigzag said:



			You were asking for help, otherwise you would not have posted... Why do you jump down peoples throats when they offer suggestions you don't like?
		
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I haven't objected to any suggestions, but I'm about to comment on yours.





			Still think the horse could do with an x-ray, I certainly wouldn't think of shooting him til I spent a couple of hundred quid on an x-ray, especially as you said previously you have spent a fortune on him...  seems a waste of money now all the KS stuff you had done
		
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Wow. My vet is prepared to come and kill him for me without an x Ray, yet you have the expertise to tell me that he needs them. I'm impressed.


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## zigzag (8 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Wow. My vet is prepared to come and kill him for me without an x Ray, yet you have the expertise to tell me that he needs them. I'm impressed.
		
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Vets will do whatever YOU want. I myslef couldn't live without giving the poor ****** an x-ray before shooting him


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## charlie76 (8 May 2014)

zigzag said:



			Vets will do whatever YOU want. I myslef couldn't live without giving the poor ****** an x-ray before shooting him
		
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I agree, how do you know he can't be fixed without investigating?


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

zigzag said:



			Vets will do whatever YOU want. I myslef couldn't live without giving the poor ****** an x-ray before shooting him
		
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Then you have more money than sense.


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## doriangrey (8 May 2014)

If I were to hazard a guess cpt but if he's looking like that in rest it looks like he's clenching his jaw/cheeks in pain.  The reason I posted both of my pics is that I've never seen any of my horses have clenched muscles like that when they have been relaxed or at rest which is why I remarked on Auslander's horse but she already mentioned she had a medical condition.  I won't comment further except to say (hugs).


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## zigzag (8 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Then you have more money than sense.
		
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And you don't have a heart, if you aren't going to fully investigate...


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

charlie76 said:



			I agree, how do you know he can't be fixed without investigating?
		
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I have been offered a referral for a neurectomy.

I have turned this down on the grounds of pain and upset for the horse, low probability that it will work, and lastly by a long way cost.

Would you like to argue with me or my vet over any of that?


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

zigzag said:



			And you don't have a heart, if you aren't going to fully investigate...
		
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I have a heart but you seem to be lacking a brain.


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## zigzag (8 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I have a heart but you seem to be lacking a brain.
		
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How do I not have a brain?

Would you like some money for the x-rays?


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## charlie76 (8 May 2014)

=cptrayes;12447843]I have a heart but you seem to be lacking a brain.[/QUOTE]

How rude! A vet would happily put any horse to sleep without further investigation on your say so
 Doesn't make it right. 
Surely if you love the horse you would spend a couple of hundred pounds getting an x ray and a correct diagnosis?I currently have a lame horse. No idea why but I certainly won't be shooting it until I know for sure the issue is irreparable.
I find your attitude very odd. If you can't fix it without spending a couple of hundred pounds then shoot it? All because the pictures of horses veins on here don't match yours? Goodness me


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

zigzag said:



			How do I not have a brain?

Would you like some money for the x-rays?
		
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You seem to have lost your brain because we have been through all this on other threads, but you just won't let it go. But I will repeat it for you since you seen to be finding it hard to take in.

There is no point in x raying when I am not prepared to put him through any more operations and there is no possibility, with his history, of the x rays showing anything that can be fixed without an operation.

So no, I don't want money for an x Ray, but if you'd like to send me five hundred or so to have a post mortem done of his head, I would love that thank you.


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## doriangrey (8 May 2014)

Actually I will comment further, some of the remarks to the OP on this thread have been objectionable beyond belief.


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

charlie76 said:



			How rude! A vet would happily put any horse to sleep without further investigation on your say so
 Doesn't make it right. 
Surely if you love the horse you would spend a couple of hundred pounds getting an x ray and a correct diagnosis?I currently have a lame horse. No idea why but I certainly won't be shooting it until I know for sure the issue is irreparable.
I find your attitude very odd. If you can't fix it without spending a couple of hundred pounds then shoot it? All because the pictures of horses veins on here don't match yours? Goodness me
		
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Lost your memory too Casey? Forgotten all the issues we've discussed on other threads? Forgotten that Ihave avet supplying experimental drugs to help him.  you know full well the veins are simply an additional symptom, but it's fun to forget it and try to drum up an argument, isn't it?

Do you know what? It takes my mind off the problem wonderfully to read the tripe you are  writing, so thank you


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## Moomin1 (8 May 2014)

CPT, harsh though it sounds, I honestly would have this horse pts.  I think you have done everything you can, and are breaking your heart over it, with little chance of a good outcome.


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## CLM (8 May 2014)

CPT, please ignore these horrible people who seem to delight in needling you even at this awful time.  
I know what it is like to search for information, explanation, hope for an ill animal I loved.  I know you are trying  your best for him and will make the best decisions for him.


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## charlie76 (8 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			You seem to have lost your brain because we have been through all this on other threads, but you just won't let it go. But I will repeat it for you since you seen to be finding it hard to take in.

There is no point in x raying when I am not prepared to put him through any more operations and there is no possibility, with his history, of the x rays showing anything that can be fixed without an operation.

So no, I don't want money for an x Ray, but if you'd like to send me five hundred or so to have a post mortem done of his head, I would love that thank you.
		
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So stop trying to find answers on here. Put him down and put him out of pain. If you dont want to do any more vet investigations that's fair enough but scrambling for answers on here won't help him. No one has seen him and can really understand from a few words on a forum how bad he is. If he is in that much pain and you don't want to spend money finding out why do the right thing by him and make a decision.


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## zigzag (8 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			You seem to have lost your brain because we have been through all this on other threads, but you just won't let it go. But I will repeat it for you since you seen to be finding it hard to take in.

There is no point in x raying when I am not prepared to put him through any more operations and there is no possibility, with his history, of the x rays showing anything that can be fixed without an operation.

So no, I don't want money for an x Ray, but if you'd like to send me five hundred or so to have a post mortem done of his head, I would love that thank you.
		
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Well... if you know for certain the xrays will show a problem that can only be fixed with an OP that you won't have done, why are you keeping him alive? You now have 2 new horses to replace him with....


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

charlie76 said:



			So stop trying to find answers on here. Put him down and put him out of pain. If you dont want to do any more vet investigations that's fair enough but scrambling for answers on here won't help him. No one has seen him and can really understand from a few words on a forum how bad he is. If he is in that much pain and you don't want to spend money finding out why do the right thing by him and make a decision.
		
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You are having a lot of trouble absorbing what I am writing, aren't you?

I will repeat for you what I have already written. The second head fracture is only about two months old. I have agreed a strategy with my vet that we keep him pain free if possible until it is three months old and evaluate then whether he has shown any signs of being able to get through this. I have been advised that far from improving, it is likely to progress, in which case he will be put to sleep.

Meanwhile, he is being kept quiet and stress free, as far as possible, and although it is clear to me that he has a perpetual headache, he does not appear to be suffering badly enough to rush into killing him this week.

I do hope you are happy with that proposed course of action Casey, but I'm sure you'll let me know if you aren't, darling that you are


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## be positive (8 May 2014)

It depends what you mean by an operation, one of my liveries went through  similar periods of unbearable headshaking, vets had no idea other than the obvious, it turned out he had a fragment of tooth in his jaw pressing on the nerve, easily seen on xray and just as easily removed under sedation, sadly it had damaged the nerve as it had been left for well over a year by the time it was treated and in the end he was pts but I feel that earlier intervention may have prevented the damage being so severe.
I have a slight headshaker who suffered a mouth injury 18 months ago, the shaking has got slightly worse, he has been examined by vets who have found nothing, my next step is to xray to rule out a fragment causing this, in my cases the horses had no other issues so it was worth investigating further and possibly operating, if they had the numerous problems your horse has then it is a more difficult judgement to make but for the sake of a few xrays I think I would at least want to make sure it is nothing simple before I pts.


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## be positive (8 May 2014)

It depends what you mean by an operation, one of my liveries went through  similar periods of unbearable headshaking, vets had no idea other than the obvious, it turned out he had a fragment of tooth in his jaw pressing on the nerve, easily seen on xray and just as easily removed under sedation, sadly it had damaged the nerve as it had been left for well over a year by the time it was treated and in the end he was pts but I feel that earlier intervention may have prevented the damage being so severe.
I have a slight headshaker who suffered a mouth injury 18 months ago, the shaking has got slightly worse, he has been examined by vets who have found nothing, my next step is to xray to rule out a fragment causing this, in my cases the horses had no other issues so it was worth investigating further and possibly operating, if they had the numerous problems your horse has then it is a more difficult judgement to make but for the sake of a few xrays I think I would at least want to make sure it is nothing simple before I pts.


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

be positive said:



			It depends what you mean by an operation, one of my liveries went through  similar periods of unbearable headshaking, vets had no idea other than the obvious, it turned out he had a fragment of tooth in his jaw pressing on the nerve, easily seen on xray and just as easily removed under sedation, sadly it had damaged the nerve as it had been left for well over a year by the time it was treated and in the end he was pts but I feel that earlier intervention may have prevented the damage being so severe.
I have a slight headshaker who suffered a mouth injury 18 months ago, the shaking has got slightly worse, he has been examined by vets who have found nothing, my next step is to xray to rule out a fragment causing this, in my cases the horses had no other issues so it was worth investigating further and possibly operating, if they had the numerous problems your horse has then it is a more difficult judgement to make but for the sake of a few xrays I think I would at least want to make sure it is nothing simple before I pts.
		
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The horse has fractured his head three times in his life, twice in the last four months. These problems stem directly from those injuries. I am taking the advice of the vet who has seen the horse that nothing can be done without an operation. I am not prepared to put him through any more operations.


ps the one thing he isn't doing is shaking his head!


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## mightymammoth (8 May 2014)

don't rise to it cptrayes, you are the only one who knows the ins and outs of your horses situation x


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## cptrayes (8 May 2014)

victoria1980x said:



			don't rise to it cptrayes, you are the only one who knows the ins and outs of your horses situation x
		
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Thanks, I'll try, but at least it's keeping me busy


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## Goldenstar (9 May 2014)

Cpt he's your horse you decide what's best with your vet .
I hope there's a way forward for you both .
It's a very difficult situation to be in but the time does come when enough is enough .
Best wishes as you get through this .


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## cptrayes (9 May 2014)

zigzag said:



			Well... if you know for certain the xrays will show a problem that can only be fixed with an OP that you won't have done, why are you keeping him alive? You now have 2 new horses to replace him with....
		
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Oooh, missed this one. Sorry, I can't resist an answer. I wondered when someone was going to play the 'you've replaced him already' card, cheap and nasty though it iis.

 I always have two horses and often three, so I have not replaced Ace at all, nor do I want to.  I love him. He cost me ten thousand pounds. He is an elite bred dressage horse. If I could save him, I would. Henry was bought to break and possibly sell, before we knew how ill Ace was, and Rizzle was bought to replace the hunter in my avatar I sold last month.

You are having a little trouble with logic.  To say that x rays will disclose nothing that can be resolved without an operation is not the same as saying that x rays will disclose something which can be resolved with an operation. The advice I have is that x rays are unlikely to show anything at all, but that if they do, it would require surgical intervention to fix which would in any case not be likely to produce a good result.  

Any more cheap digs up your sleeve zigzag? Don't be shy, will you?


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## cptrayes (9 May 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Cpt he's your horse you decide what's best with your vet .
I hope there's a way forward for you both .
It's a very difficult situation to be in but the time does come when enough is enough .
Best wishes as you get through this .
		
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GS thank you for both your posts, it does help.


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## charliejet (9 May 2014)

I really hope he makes some improvement when the fracture settles and that the new drugs give him some relief in the meantime.   


As you know my horse has been blinking and frowning, she is now developing head shaking symptoms.  Sigh!  

I have been using Pulsed Electromagnetic Therapy for her fractured withers and it does seem to help her relax.   I have the machine on hire from my physio for a month and use it 2 x daily.  My girls fractures cant heal as they are displaced so I use the machine on the lower settings for the pain relief and muscle inflammation.  It can be used to help promote fracture healing though.  I have no idea if it could be used in your situation but may be worth asking Vet / physio about?


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## cptrayes (9 May 2014)

So sorry to hear that your mare is getting worse, I'll cross my fingers that the can help her withers and that it solves the head problems.


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## STRIKER (9 May 2014)

Sorry to hear this OP, hugs. Has the vet checked out his sinus due to the fractures, they may be crushed causes pressure for the veins to be engorged and also it does cause head shaking.

I hope you find an happy answer, thoughts are with you


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## DiNozzo (9 May 2014)

RE. Xrays

You say he's fractured his head repeatedly in the last 4 months was it?

How do you know that he hasn't chipped a bit of bone off that has migrated to the trig. nerve and is causing problems by pressing on it?

A bone chip can take longer to dissolve than a fracture would to heal.

To give him another month without pain and then shoot him, could potentially not be long enough. The horse may need longer to dissolve the bone chip that could potentially be causing pressure points on his trig. nerve.

So, yes, whilst it might not need surgery, more time could be needed, especially if the experimental drugs work and keep him out of pain long enough to heal properly.

But you won't know this as you refuse to xray.


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## hayinamanger (9 May 2014)

Some very unpleasant attitudes coming through here.  

To all the experts who clearly have MRCVS after their names, have you never heard this saying?

Do not judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes.


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## Auslander (9 May 2014)

DiNozzo said:



			RE. Xrays

You say he's fractured his head repeatedly in the last 4 months was it?

How do you know that he hasn't chipped a bit of bone off that has migrated to the trig. nerve and is causing problems by pressing on it?

A bone chip can take longer to dissolve than a fracture would to heal.

To give him another month without pain and then shoot him, could potentially not be long enough. The horse may need longer to dissolve the bone chip that could potentially be causing pressure points on his trig. nerve.

So, yes, whilst it might not need surgery, more time could be needed, especially if the experimental drugs work and keep him out of pain long enough to heal properly.

But you won't know this as you refuse to xray.
		
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Still won't explain why the horse has been repeatedly fracturing his head though! I can see both points of view, but the thing that would most concern me is why this horse is self-harming to a point where he is fracturing the bones in his head. Suggests a pretty major headache to me!


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## Auslander (9 May 2014)

zigzag said:



			Vets will do whatever YOU want. I myslef couldn't live without giving the poor ****** an x-ray before shooting him
		
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Just as a matter of interest, why then, did you suggest I shot one of mine yesterday, just because she's an old girl who won't be left alone in the field? I know you added a half hearted "Joke" after it, but after having the other old girl PTS less than a week ago, I didn't quite see the humour.


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## PolarSkye (9 May 2014)

This thread makes for some pretty unpleasant reading . . . some of you should be ashamed of yourselves.  

P


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## PolarSkye (9 May 2014)

zigzag said:



			Vets will do whatever YOU want. I myslef couldn't live without giving the poor ****** an x-ray before shooting him
		
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Actually, vets won't.  I can think of at least two instances in recent memory where vets refused to PTS a horse because it simply wasn't broken or ill enough.  

By the way, are you a vet?  Have you visited/diagnosed CPT's horse?  No - thought not.

P


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## zigzag (9 May 2014)

Auslander said:



			Just as a matter of interest, why then, did you suggest I shot one of mine yesterday, just because she's an old girl who won't be left alone in the field? I know you added a half hearted "Joke" after it, but after having the other old girl PTS less than a week ago, I didn't quite see the humour.
		
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It was a joke...  Most threads on here say PTS the horse, and I apologize, I did not know you had lost a horse or I would never have put it


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## zigzag (9 May 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			Actually, vets won't.  I can think of at least two instances in recent memory where vets refused to PTS a horse because it simply wasn't broken or ill enough.  

By the way, are you a vet?  Have you visited/diagnosed CPT's horse?  No - thought not.

P
		
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Vets will do what you want..  and  no I am not a vet, but various people as well as myself have asked why an x-ray hasn't been given, and reasons why it would be a good idea .... It could be a simple thing  that CAN be fixed


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## PolarSkye (9 May 2014)

zigzag said:



			Vets will do what you want..  and  no I am not a vet, but various people as well as myself have asked why an x-ray hasn't been given, and reasons why it would be a good idea .... It could be a simple thing  that CAN be fixed
		
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I'll say it again . . . no, vets won't.

P


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## The Fuzzy Furry (9 May 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			I'll say it again . . . no, vets won't.

P
		
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Is correct. 
However,  a knackerman or hunt staff would. Nothing wrong in that imho,

Cpt, hope you get an answer to the problem


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## PolarSkye (9 May 2014)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Is correct. 
However,  a knackerman or hunt staff would. Nothing wrong in that imho,

Cpt, hope you get an answer to the problem
		
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I'm with TFF . . . I hope you figure out the best thing to do for your lovely horse.  

P


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## Buddy'sMum (9 May 2014)

Auslander said:



			Still won't explain why the horse has been repeatedly fracturing his head though! I can see both points of view, but the thing that would most concern me is why this horse is self-harming to a point where he is fracturing the bones in his head. Suggests a pretty major headache to me!
		
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Or maybe a problem with his vision? Is there maybe a chance the first injury left him with wonky depth perception - this could explain the subsequent injuries? Just a thought as I have a friend who was left with this problem following a serious head injury. 
CPT, sorry if you and your vet have already considered and discounted this possibility. Fingers and toes crossed for Ace.


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## Cinnamontoast (10 May 2014)

Cob, of course. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Hope you can resolve this.


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## Salcey (10 May 2014)

hayinamanger said:



			Some very unpleasant attitudes coming through here.  

To all the experts who clearly have MRCVS after their names, have you never heard this saying?

Do not judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes.
		
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This exactly, thinking of you CPT


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## diamonddogs (10 May 2014)

Can't add anything useful to the thread but if I was ever in the mood to kick someone when they were down (actually not just kick them, but stand them up, kick them down again then boot them around the floor with a few insults thrown in for good measure) I'd know exactly where to come.

Shame on you - where's your compassion?


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## mandwhy (12 May 2014)

What an awful situation to be in, I have no idea what I would do really, but I just wanted to share some support for you and your horse.


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## dianchi (12 May 2014)

Dare we ask for an update? Be interested to hear if the new drugs are having a positive effect.

I personally would also be pushing for an xray, and would have done so earlier- personally choice/opinion


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## cptrayes (12 May 2014)

dianchi said:



			Dare we ask for an update? Be interested to hear if the new drugs are having a positive effect.

I personally would also be pushing for an xray, and would have done so earlier- personally choice/opinion
		
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Why would I want to set myself up for any more abuse Dianchi, especially when the request is from someone who has been pretty rude to me in the past just because I suggested that a footsore nineteen year old could be tested for Cushings?

For anyone who wants an update and will give up their anonymity, I do a regular email newsletter in place of the blog I gave up doing last year, and if you want to share that then I need your email address.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (12 May 2014)

a difference of opinion is not abuse!

100 people will do things 100 diff ways-i always say that even amongst my closest friends there are times we think "*****,wouldnt do that" but are able to discuss it in a controlled, adult manner and thus dont fall out over it.

TBH all the cloak and dagger stuff is not helping, asking for help on a problem but refusing to post pics of said issue, then refusing to update except for people you know are in 100% agreement with you anyway, does not really give the impression of being 100% open with everyone, or of someone calmly considering all options.

im not telling you what to do, or how to manage Ace, but that you may want to consider how this looks to outsiders and how you come across online: At times agressive, and at times bordering on irrational.

equally just because you have disagreed with another poster on a previous topic, it doesnt make sense to jump down their throat just for the sake of it now, when they have asked a genuine sounding Q and are only interested in how the horse is doing.Theres no need to be quite so dramatic about every person that doesnt share your views/doesnt work the same way as you do.


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## cptrayes (12 May 2014)

My point proved, I think.


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## Patterdale (12 May 2014)

Cptrayes you really don't help yourself.....you come on here asking for help quite often, usually pretty time consuming stuff such as counting blink rates, putting pictures up (which so many kind people reply to) and then are staggeringly rude to anyone who dares to voice a differing opinion to yours. 

I just don't think it's really called for.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (12 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			My point proved, I think.
		
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Yes.mine.perfectly.



Patterdale said:



			Cptrayes you really don't help yourself.....you come on here asking for help quite often, usually pretty time consuming stuff such as counting blink rates, putting pictures up (which so many kind people reply to) and then are staggeringly rude to anyone who dares to voice a differing opinion to yours. 

I just don't think it's really called for.
		
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Quite.


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## cptrayes (12 May 2014)

To close this thread on a positive note, I'd like to thank everyone who counted blink rates and posted pictures for me, they helped me very much.


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## Zero00000 (12 May 2014)

Patterdale said:



			Cptrayes you really don't help yourself.....you come on here asking for help quite often, usually pretty time consuming stuff such as counting blink rates, putting pictures up (which so many kind people reply to) and then are staggeringly rude to anyone who dares to voice a differing opinion to yours. 

I just don't think it's really called for.
		
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She's not holding a gun to anyone's head!!

CPT I have always found to be to the point, maybe some find it rude, others not so.
If you have nothing helpful to give why comment on the post, dear god!!

CPT I had not kept up with this thread as son is injured, Ill also send my email add, as I am very interested in your horse and his bizarre ways/injuries (not meant in a bad way)


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## _HP_ (12 May 2014)

Interesting how it's always the same people challenging the OP.....


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## charlie76 (12 May 2014)

_HP_ said:



			Interesting how it's always the same people challenging the OP.....

Click to expand...

Because they , including me, have been on the receiving end of her damn right rude responses on other posts. Honestly, the replies she has given to me in the past have been bordering on abusive and bullying. 
It seems acceptable when the rudeness is coming from her side but not when its the other way round!


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## OwnedbyJoe (13 May 2014)

charlie76 said:



			Because they , including me, have been on the receiving end of her damn right rude responses on other posts. Honestly, the replies she has given to me in the past have been bordering on abusive and bullying. 
It seems acceptable when the rudeness is coming from her side but not when its the other way round!
		
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So two wrongs make a right do they? "She was rude once, now it's my turn"... very mature.
CPT I DO have an MRCVS after my name and I think the course of action you and your vet have agreed upon is very sensible, as much as it can be when faced with what sounds like a horrible scenario. At the same time, when what you are dealing with is so clearly out of left field" I can see why you are asking for the photos you did.
The rest of us should probably butt out round about now.


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## charlie76 (13 May 2014)

OwnedbyJoe said:



			So two wrongs make a right do they? "She was rude once, now it's my turn"... very mature.
CPT I DO have an MRCVS after my name and I think the course of action you and your vet have agreed upon is very sensible, as much as it can be when faced with what sounds like a horrible scenario. At the same time, when what you are dealing with is so clearly out of left field" I can see why you are asking for the photos you did.
The rest of us should probably butt out round about now.
		
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No not once, several times. 
Anyway, I haven't been rude, just had an opinion as you do on a forum.


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## cptrayes (13 May 2014)

OwnedbyJoe said:



			CPT I DO have an MRCVS after my name and I think the course of action you and your vet have agreed upon is very sensible, as much as it can be when faced with what sounds like a horrible scenario. At the same time, when what you are dealing with is so clearly out of left field" I can see why you are asking for the photos you did.
The rest of us should probably butt out round about now.
		
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Thank you, that really helps. For your info, he's now on carbemazepine, which you will probably already know is a human anti epilepsy drug.


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## palterwell (13 May 2014)

Hi,I'm the one who replied to you before as I have Trigeminal neuralgia.I have taken carbamazepine and it does help but it's quite difficult to determine the correct dose. I'm not on any medication at the moment and the weather conditions have been bad for me for the last three days, I'm probably frowning at the moment! Feel free to PM me ,I do feel that no one can understand this condition unless they have experienced it.


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## dianchi (13 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Why would I want to set myself up for any more abuse Dianchi, especially when the request is from someone who has been pretty rude to me in the past just because I suggested that a footsore nineteen year old could be tested for Cushings?

For anyone who wants an update and will give up their anonymity, I do a regular email newsletter in place of the blog I gave up doing last year, and if you want to share that then I need your email address.
		
Click to expand...


Apologises for daring to ask how your horse was doing, many people had posted and I just asked how it was going.

In response to your "it must be Cushing comment" which you appear to not be able to drop (did I mention it??)
Weirdly my vet laughed at the suggestion and she is fine and out winning at elem dressage, international HorseBall and happy as larry.

Tell me, how is your top dressage horse doing currently in his competitions and life? Oh hang on............


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## Patterdale (13 May 2014)

dianchi said:



			Tell me, how is your top dressage horse doing currently in his competitions and life? Oh hang on............
		
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*sharp intake of breath*

Totally below the belt. Two wrongs don't make a right you know. 

:eek3:


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## cptrayes (13 May 2014)

dianchi said:



			Apologises for daring to ask how your horse was doing, many people had posted and I just asked how it was going.

In response to your "it must be Cushing comment" which you appear to not be able to drop (did I mention it??)
Weirdly my vet laughed at the suggestion and she is fine and out winning at elem dressage, international HorseBall and happy as larry.

Tell me, how is your top dressage horse doing currently in his competitions and life? Oh hang on............
		
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My top dressage horse isn't doing at all well Dianchi, which would normally be a reason to commiserate with someone, rather than mock them? 

My problem with you and your horse who was footie at the time was that I offered a suggestion which has previously helped many people with barefoot horses, and you PMd me multiple times in what felt to me like an attack to try to make me withdraw my advice. And ever since then it feels like you have, like now, lost no opportunity to take a dig whenever you feel you can get one in. All I ever did was suggest a Cushings test on a nineteen year old foot sore horse, I think you've got your own back now, haven't you?


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## cptrayes (13 May 2014)

palterwell said:



			Hi,I'm the one who replied to you before as I have Trigeminal neuralgia.I have taken carbamazepine and it does help but it's quite difficult to determine the correct dose. I'm not on any medication at the moment and the weather conditions have been bad for me for the last three days, I'm probably frowning at the moment! Feel free to PM me ,I do feel that no one can understand this condition unless they have experienced it.
		
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Thank you, I am about to PM you, you are the closest I can get to giving him a voice.


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## ImmyS (13 May 2014)

Oh my gosh.. People are so cruel. Yes maybe some of CPT's responses are blunt and maybe a little harsh, but from what I can see they are only in retaliation. I can only imagine that CPT is going through emotional turmoil with what's happening with Ace, I know I would be! So yes maybe some responses are snappy and a little irrational but for what she's going through - I find that perfectly reasonable. I cannot believe some of the below the belt remarks, do you not think it's hard enough what CPT's been through with Ace without the constant jibes? It is clear that she loves this horse dearly and will do what is right by him.


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## amandap (13 May 2014)

dianchi said:



			Tell me, how is your top dressage horse doing currently in his competitions and life? Oh hang on............
		
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This is far too far and an appalling comment!

Those that can't try to be helpful should perhaps not post anymore.


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## Sheep (13 May 2014)

dianchi said:



			Tell me, how is your top dressage horse doing currently in his competitions and life? Oh hang on............
		
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Just horrible.

Was that really necessary?


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## Zero00000 (13 May 2014)

dianchi said:



			Tell me, how is your top dressage horse doing currently in his competitions and life? Oh hang on............
		
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Wayyy too far!
Just proves why you are on this thread really!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (13 May 2014)

It's absolutely no different to CPT telling me how unhappy CS is and implying that I ride him knowing he's in pain whilst being well aware he is under vet/ chiro/ trainer supervision.
No diff at all.


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## PolarSkye (13 May 2014)

dianchi said:



			Tell me, how is your top dressage horse doing currently in his competitions and life? Oh hang on............
		
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Out of order.

P


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## Sheep (13 May 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			It's absolutely no different to CPT telling me how unhappy CS is and implying that I ride him knowing he's in pain whilst being well aware he is under vet/ chiro/ trainer supervision.
No diff at all.
		
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Well, in any case, I don't think it is fair to kick anyone when they are down, so if you have had similar comments in the past, that too is unfair.


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## cptrayes (13 May 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			It's absolutely no different to CPT telling me how unhappy CS is and implying that I ride him knowing he's in pain whilst being well aware he is under vet/ chiro/ trainer supervision.
No diff at all.
		
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WHEN?

All I have ever said about CS or your riding of him is that if he was mine I'd have his back x rayed. Which I would. 

 Yes, I have called CS unhappy in my response to your first offer to take him off my hands, because you said he was biting you and your sister over the stable door and consistently trying to dump you at home, and that to me is an unhappy horse.

The real problem here, Princess, is that from mid  November on my blog, and probably before that, you have been utterly convinced that you know better than me how to manage a horse that you have never met. You told me so repeatedly at great length on my blog.

On this board, you have  refused to make it clear that you do not think that I am making up Ace's head problems. It wouldn't surprise me to find that you are telling people that I am looking for an excuse to put the horse down so that I do not have to admit that I cannot ride him.

And for the people who think I follow the Sparkle sisters around posting about them, I suggest that you track back the last six months and see just who is posting after who.  Perhaps my favourite was a single word post that Nikki followed one of my posts with. She wrote 'baa'. Maybe she was feeling a little sheepish that day 

No different, me thinking your horse might be in pain and politely saying I would x ray him,  and me knowing  that mine is but you thinking it's me making it up and that If only you could get hold of him he'd be fine?  I think not PS, I really do.


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## dianchi (13 May 2014)

That was why I was trying to be the bigger person put the past in the past and genuinely asked how it was going- my post didn't attack or have a go, merely asked how the treatment was going.
And a lovely grown up response I got there!

CPT is quick to tell others her opinion, get the vet or what to do, or what people are doing is wrong, but when others do to her posts we're all wrong.

I genuinely hope that ace gets a treatment that works or that CPT when exhausted all efforts (perhaps an xray) can find the strength to make the right call at the right time (something that I'm sure all owners hope they can do for their horses)


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## magicmoose (13 May 2014)

dianchi said:



			Tell me, how is your top dressage horse doing currently in his competitions and life? Oh hang on............
		
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Wow! Whatever CPT may or may not have said in the past, you have just passed the test to be a Grade-A Bitch! Congratulations, I'm sure that your family is proud of you!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (13 May 2014)

magicmoose said:



			Wow! Whatever CPT may or may not have said in the past, you have just passed the test to be a Grade-A Bitch! Congratulations, I'm sure that your family is proud of you!
		
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As did CPT when she:told NMT that fig was more or less certain to get kissing spines as he is so short coupled. Told NMT that she adjusts her flash noseband like a grackle to effectively cheat BD rules and cover up a contact issue. Told NMT she had an eating disorder(publically, on this forum).repeately suggests that my horse has kissing spines even though I have repeatedly explained he had a full KS work up as a young horse and my vets do not feel it needs repeating.

Can you also not remember replying to one of my threads stating how beautifully ace was coming back in to work and then TWO weeks later posting that FOUR weeks previously was when you noticed his head banging issue? One of those two posts was total fabrication hence I don't think we are getting the full story here again and your aggressive and evasive replies only confirm it.

As far as my horse goes, he's a quirky barstool but one who is out-performing his genetics. The proof is in the pudding and he's getting the results. Several vets, several GP riders, 2 judges, 2 chiros and the best EDT in Europe agree he's just a tricky git. Somehow I think they are right.
In aces case he is severely under- performing so some part of his routine/ schooling/care is not right. He was no diff post KS OP than before, you were still having problems,the same problems, with spooking, humping, bucking etc. that tells me that whatever was wrong initially, remained so.

But he's your horse, same as CS is mine. Diff being I am very happy with the general trend of CS's work and the marks he is getting.


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## nikkimariet (13 May 2014)

cptrayes said:



*WHEN?*

*Yes, I have called CS unhappy*

Perhaps my favourite was a single word post that Nikki followed one of my posts with. She wrote 'baa'. Maybe she was feeling a little sheepish that day 

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Actually?

As for my 'baa' to one of your posts, that was regarding feet/shoeing/youngster IIRC. Could you elaborate as to what I could have possibly been feeling sheepish about?


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## FrostyFeet (13 May 2014)

Just to echo Boysy post-I too have trigeminal neuralgia,treated with anti-convulsants. The way in which TN is diagnosed is to give the patient the medication (which doesn't respond to standard analgesia) & if it kills the pain then you have both a successful treatment and a diagnosis. A very long shot-but is it possible to give anti-convulsants to a horse? Haven't a clue but your vet would obviously know and could be worth a try. And as a radiographer I know that X-rays are useless in diagnosing TN problems-great for fractures,not so good for more complex conditions.
Good luck CPT, it must be horrendous watching your horse suffer like this,I do hope you find a way forward.


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## cptrayes (13 May 2014)

FrostyFeet said:



			Just to echo Boysy post-I too have trigeminal neuralgia,treated with anti-convulsants. The way in which TN is diagnosed is to give the patient the medication (which doesn't respond to standard analgesia) & if it kills the pain then you have both a successful treatment and a diagnosis. A very long shot-but is it possible to give anti-convulsants to a horse? Haven't a clue but your vet would obviously know and could be worth a try. And as a radiographer I know that X-rays are useless in diagnosing TN problems-great for fractures,not so good for more complex conditions.
Good luck CPT, it must be horrendous watching your horse suffer like this,I do hope you find a way forward.
		
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He on anti-convulsants  and the bad news is that they are working and that he cannot stay on them, because the dose is likely to have to be rapidly increased as the effect wears off.

Meanwhile, this is a you tube video showing what a beautiful horse he is. I am riding him there at twelve weeks after the operation for kissing spines in an arena away from home, the beginning of December.

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=X56TvL8yOB0


And just to remind those who still think I am looking for an excuse to put this horse down rather than admit that I can't ride him, this was his second head injury in three months, and happened while turned out on a twelve acre field.  







If anyone wants to know the truth about anything else I have posted, please read the originals, because I don't recognize the description of what I am supposed to have written


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## Fides (13 May 2014)

The vid didn't work


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## cptrayes (13 May 2014)

The vid isn't there, I'm about to add it 


Should be there now.


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## Fides (13 May 2014)

Wow definitely less tail swishing than the before video. I do hope you get to the bottom of his issues and back track


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## cptrayes (13 May 2014)

Fides said:



			Wow definitely less tail swishing than the before video. I do hope you get to the bottom of his issues and back track
		
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Yes, the two very significant changes were the increase in the length of his stride and the very marked reduction in tail swishing. I'll never buy another horse Wii does it, just in case. He also lost a clear limb flight deviation in his front right, which was unexpected.

I know that his back is not involved in these current issues because he has retained his overtrack and his beautiful movement. He has, though, lost a lot of his top line now from being out of work so long


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## charlie76 (13 May 2014)

I know you don't want to take my advice but my dressage horse did this to himself on several occasions, ended up in the vets with a suspected brain tumor and after extensive tests turned out he had a hay seed or some thing in his ear, he had his ears cleared out and has been fine ever since. 
He damaged his face so much he had stitches. 
The vets were convinced he had some thing majorly wrong, I had to beg them them to slwan out his ears. Worth a try?


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## cptrayes (13 May 2014)

charlie76 said:



			I know you don't want to take my advice but my dressage horse did this to himself on several occasions, ended up in the vets with a suspected brain tumor and after extensive tests turned out he had a hay seed or some thing in his ear, he had his ears cleared out and has been fine ever since. 
He damaged his face so much he had stitches. 
The vets were convinced he had some thing majorly wrong, I had to beg them them to slwan out his ears. Worth a try?
		
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Well an ear clean would be easy enough. What was your horse actually doing to cause the injuries? Ace did one in September by cantering straight into a wall.


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## charlie76 (13 May 2014)

He smacked his head on stable walls, the worse one, where he almost lost an eye he shredded his face so badly, he did in the field, no idea how, the vet came to stitch it and within ten mins of him leaving he whacked his head again! Almost looked like he said it on purpose so they took him in for tests.


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## cptrayes (13 May 2014)

charlie76 said:



			He smacked his head on stable walls, the worse one, where he almost lost an eye he shredded his face so badly, he did in the field, no idea how, the vet came to stitch it and within ten mins of him leaving he whacked his head again! Almost looked like he said it on purpose so they took him in for tests.
		
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Ace has never looked as if he did it on purpose 



For anyone interested, this video shows at one minute thirty what happened when the spines clashed. He felt absolutely explosive the whole way through, which was why I rode in an air jacket. (No riding critique please, I know my faults, and since I didn't have a horse till my twenties and didn't learn to ride in balance until I was in my thirties, I don't think I do so bad) .

It was obvious to us then that his behaviour was pain and not malice, so I had him x rayed and found six impinging processes right under the saddle.

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=vNZw6Uy_-DQ

I got him through the kissing spines rehab, then through a gut upset caused by acid haylage, and then found him one morning with a busted right eye socket. He got a numb nose from that, which had just got the feeling back in it when he crunched his left cheek bone and has been left with trigeminal neuralgia, which I am giving him as long as is sensible and fair to show that he can resolve.


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## Andalucian (13 May 2014)

He looks great in the video.

As to the mean and nasty posts......speechless.....aren't there moderators on here?


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## doriangrey (13 May 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			It's absolutely no different to CPT telling me how unhappy CS is and implying that I ride him knowing he's in pain whilst being well aware he is under vet/ chiro/ trainer supervision.
No diff at all.
		
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I think it's different.  I've suggested in the past that CS looks unhappy or in pain due to the violence of his response - but not in a sarcastic manner I hope. I seem to remember wishing you good luck with him.  I think cpt has been very restrained considering some of the replies to her original post.  I remember asking you why scoping would give a false positive for ulcers which you didn't reply to - so I figured that was your prerogative so never mentioned it again.  Maybe she should get the same respect.


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## cptrayes (13 May 2014)

There has been a little confusion about kissing spines on this  thread that I'd like to correct in case it helps others now or in the future.  My horse was seen by a fully qualified physio. He was seen by numerous people including one dressage judge who told me I just needed to be harder on him and one judge advised me to get a man on him.  There is no sure way of knowing if your horse has kissing spines other than to x Ray, which will tell you if the horse has impinging spines; then give injections based on the x Ray, which will tell you whether the spines were the sole cause of the behaviour.  My vets will not operate unless the injections first show that an operation will work and I believe that is routine, since very often ulcers, psd and/or SI  issues are also present.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (14 May 2014)

doriangrey said:



			I think it's different.  I've suggested in the past that CS looks unhappy or in pain due to the violence of his response - but not in a sarcastic manner I hope. I seem to remember wishing you good luck with him.  I think cpt has been very restrained considering some of the replies to her original post.  I remember asking you why scoping would give a false positive for ulcers which you didn't reply to - so I figured that was your prerogative so never mentioned it again.  Maybe she should get the same respect.
		
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Not sure what relevance this has? I didn't say you were rude, I said CPT was...people can say the same thing is a civil way or in an aggressive way.

I probably missed your post in all honesty. Starving for scoping can cause ulcers to appear when there were none. Hence a false positive. A gastro guard trial is better in many cases ( as long as the specific test for hind gut ulcers is clear, which it is for CS).


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## unicornystar (14 May 2014)

I will add my two penneth worth just as it appears from what I have read/seen my old horse was very similar to the OP's horse...

Firstly here is headshot of current boy (ID/x) 7 years old as requested in original post.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=23236&d=1400058004

Secondly, from various posts I have seen (bear with me I dont get much time on here!) kissing spines, whether x rayed, operated, etc etc, may always present a problem...whether physio, vet etc say otherwise.

My own TB boy, had KS, coupled with what appeared signs of a brain tumour.  But no proof obviously.....he ran into things, including me, he was dangerous in hand, on the ground, to the point I had to have him put down despite various opinions.

From what I have read, and this is my OWN opinion I would have had this horse put down some time ago.  I am prepared to be shot down in flames and it is probably not what OP needs to hear.

No matter what operations etc we can never truly know what is going on or what degree of pain our horses are in.  Once the relevant avenues have been exhausted it must be down to quality of life.

I feel very sorry for OP as horse is beautiful and I can totally see why you are looking for answers and continuing searching...but realistically I feel there is much more to this behaviour than a simple fix.  Of course you know that, but just putting an opinion out there.


For example....the horse below was the one I had to have put down.......looking at him you really wouldn't make that decision unless you lived with him day to day...this was one WEEK before I made that decision...


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## _HP_ (14 May 2014)

Bit of advice for those that have a problem with cptrayes and how she manages her horse......don't open her threads...move on....it's really that simple.


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## BlackRider (14 May 2014)

_HP_ said:



			Bit of advice for those that have a problem with cptrayes and how she manages her horse......don't open her threads...move on....it's really that simple. 

Click to expand...

Well said.

Can't believe how nasty this thread has been.

CPTrayes - ((HUGS))


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## JenHunt (27 May 2014)

ron (winter time) 






and during the summer







eta I've noticed that his veins stand out on his face more in the summer, particularly if he's hot (reasonably obvious i guess), but especially when certain plants are producing pollen - the ash trees and oilseed rape seem to be the common denominators.


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## Gift Horse (28 May 2014)

I hope the picture works. I'm not sure how to post pictures but thought I would try.
I wish you all the best for a positive outcome
http://s1285.photobucket.com/user/Elaine_Sheldon/media/Mobile Uploads/image_zps7b0e5c86.jpg.html


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## OldNag (29 May 2014)

Bit taken aback by some of the posts on here. CPT what a difficult situation and I really feel for you


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