# What is you definition of an indiscriminate breeding?



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

As the title really, its an idea whats talked about a lot lately...so what is your idea of indisciminate breeding?

Googles definition 



			in·dis·crim·i·nate  
/&#716;indi&#712;skrim&#601;nit/
Adjective

    1. Done at random or without careful judgment: "indiscriminate killing".
    2. (of a person) Not using or exercising discrimination.

Synonyms
promiscuous
		
Click to expand...

For me, it is when someone on a whim or who is offered the use of a poorly bred stallion (who probably doesnt deserve to be a stallion) decides they are going to breed to sell for money.

I would be interested to know, especially with so many rescue's going on, and the fab campaigne by Equine Market Watch, what is your view?


----------



## Lolo (25 March 2013)

IMO, it's using an unproven mare or stallion to produce a foal without a need or purpose for it. 

So it can be a solid little cob mare with a stallion known to throw nice 'people' with decent conformation who is a nice person and goes sweetly enough to breed a sweet alrounder type that will be reared with that purpose in mind. But a mare who can't be used for physical problems or bad attitude is a big no!


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (25 March 2013)

There are many variables I think.

- Breeding from poor horses either side is daft. 
- Breeding for the sake of breeding is daft, there are nice horses out there to buy without breeding one
- Random mixes confuse me, but I am used to breeding for sport

Basically unless you are trying to breed a real quality competition horse I dont see the point as there are loads of 'okay' horses out there already!


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

Lolo said:



			IMO, it's using an unproven mare or stallion to produce a foal without a need or purpose for it. 

So it can be a solid little cob mare with a stallion known to throw nice 'people' with decent conformation who is a nice person and goes sweetly enough to breed a sweet alrounder type that will be reared with that purpose in mind. But a mare who can't be used for physical problems or bad attitude is a big no!
		
Click to expand...

So in this incidence, i wonder what people think of wet nurse mares....used for TB racing industry for orphan foals? Most are heavy cob-type mares. Agree there is no point having a good stallion if the mare is not much cop and vice versa.



Nightmare before Christmas said:



			There are many variables I think.

- Breeding from poor horses either side is daft. 
- Breeding for the sake of breeding is daft, there are nice horses out there to buy without breeding one
- Random mixes confuse me, but I am used to breeding for sport

Basically unless you are trying to breed a real quality competition horse I dont see the point as there are loads of 'okay' horses out there already! 




Click to expand...

Agree . But then begs the question, peoples definition of what is 'nice'. I mean, not everyone wants the next valegro, there is a market for the leisure horse and happy hacker.


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (25 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			Agree . But then begs the question, peoples definition of what is 'nice'. I mean, not everyone wants the next valegro, there is a market for the leisure horse and happy hacker.
		
Click to expand...


I agree but there are loads out there without breeding one. Thats my opinion though, I wouldnt actually tell anyone how to spend their own money. I tried to breed last year, my aim was to produce a nice 1.30/1.40 horse though but you never know what youve got till its on the ground I guess


----------



## justabob (25 March 2013)

Well........ breeding from a lovely proven mare, to a gorgeous top class stallion is in my mind total madness.


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

Nightmare before Christmas said:



			I agree but there are loads out there without breeding one. Thats my opinion though, I wouldnt actually tell anyone how to spend their own money. I tried to breed last year, my aim was to produce a nice 1.30/1.40 horse though but you never know what youve got till its on the ground I guess
		
Click to expand...

Agreed, but if you breed a horse with correct conformation and proven bloodlines, you have an idea of what you might get. Nature can only so go far, its what happens once the foal has been born is what is equally as important.


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

justabob said:



			Well........ breeding from a lovely proven mare, to a gorgeous top class stallion is in my mind total madness. 

Click to expand...

So is tethering thoroughbreds but each to their own i guess.


----------



## tankgirl1 (25 March 2013)

DD is my definition of indiscriminate breeding - breeding for breedings sake


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (25 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			Agreed, but if you breed a horse with correct conformation and proven bloodlines, you have an idea of what you might get. Nature can only so go far, its what happens once the foal has been born is what is equally as important.
		
Click to expand...

True I was gutted my mare didnt take. Shes by Harlequin Du Carel and I tried her with Luidam and Peppermill. I would be very interested in the outcome! Sadly not to be


----------



## minesadouble (25 March 2013)

There is a dealer near us who runs a stallion with a field full of random mares, that to me is indiscriminate breeding, having said that he sells them from1k up as weanlings and always manages to get shot of them so maybe not!!

There is much truth in the saying that 'fools breed horses for wise men to ride'. I covered a very good mare with a really good stallion and the outcome was rubbish, back at the knee, though neither of it's parents were. Thought, planning and quality mare and stallion may increase your chances of a good outcome it is still a bit of a lottery.


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

tankgirl1 said:



			DD is my definition of indiscriminate breeding - breeding for breedings sake 

Click to expand...

But i am breeding for a reason....


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

Nightmare before Christmas said:



			True I was gutted my mare didnt take. Shes by Harlequin Du Carel and I tried her with Luidam and Peppermill. I would be very interested in the outcome! Sadly not to be
		
Click to expand...

Peppermil would have been a very interesting foa.  Its such a gamble isnt it. 



minesadouble said:



			There is a dealer near us who runs a stallion with a field full of random mares, that to me is indiscriminate breeding, having said that he sells them from1k up as weanlings and always manages to get shot of them so maybe not!!

There is much truth in the saying that 'fools breed horses for wise men to ride'. I covered a very good mare with a really good stallion and the outcome was rubbish, back at the knee, though neither of it's parents were. Thought, planning and quality mare and stallion may increase your chances of a good outcome it is still a bit of a lottery.
		
Click to expand...

That is my defintion of indiscriminant breeding..but as you say, you can put two very good horses together and have a crap outcome.


----------



## minesadouble (25 March 2013)

tankgirl1 said:



			DD is my definition of indiscriminate breeding - breeding for breedings sake 

Click to expand...

I don't think that breeding from a much loved mare with the result being a 'keeper' is neccessarily indiscriminate breeding. 

It would probably be cheaper and more sensible to buy a well bred youngster but many people who have a mare they have really loved riding like the idea of having one of her offspring to keep. As long as they have the money, time, knowledge and facilities to do so I see nothing wrong in that.


----------



## MasterBenedict (25 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			But i am breeding for a reason....
		
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure the poster meant Dragon Driving and not yourself.

Could be wrong though, but that's how I read it....


----------



## WelshD (25 March 2013)

As above I think there are different types of indescriminate breeding

Breeding because you are 'unable' or too lazy to separate herds or think its all lovely and natural to let them all run together 

Breeding because you have always done so - the big native pony studs who are seeing their stock sell for low amounts at auction dont seem to be learning from these low prices despite being conciencious enough to pay out for vets etc

Breeding because any money is good or because people can cash in on the sympathy factor, breed from the stallion down the road (or even better your own) dont spend anything on vets and dont give the mare any extra care = low overheads 

If I wanted to sell my two youngsters tomorrow I could not groom them for a month, let their hooves grow long, make them a baler twine halter and get a large person to sit on them, I would almost certainly end up selling them purely on the sympathy factor for a good deal more than a nicely bred registered Welsh pony who may fetch £50 at auction, even better if I make them look really worse for wear they may end up on here getting thousands of views each - so why bother taking the trouble when things like that pay?


----------



## tankgirl1 (25 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			But i am breeding for a reason....
		
Click to expand...

Exactly, and so Dee's foal will not end up on DD being sat on by a full grown man at 2yo old!

I have read some of your threads and I know that Dee's baby will have a home for life, I don't have a problem with that at all 

I just don't like the horsey equivalent of back yard staffie breeders, who hope they will earn a few quid


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

minesadouble said:



			I don't think that breeding from a much loved mare with the result being a 'keeper' is neccessarily indiscriminate breeding. 

It would probably be cheaper and more sensible to buy a well bred youngster but many people who have a mare they have really loved riding like the idea of having one of her offspring to keep. As long as they have the money, time, knowledge and facilities to do so I see nothing wrong in that.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you 

Dee is very well bred as is the stallion and the foal is for me. The reason i have bred rather then bought is because i want to improve on areas of dee, i spent a lot of time choosing my stallion.


----------



## Holly Hocks (25 March 2013)

As someone further up said - breeding without need.  I do understand someone having a mare who has been their horse of a lifetime and wanting to produce a foal from that mare, but breeding just because you have a mare?  No. It was something I considered a couple of years ago when my mare had some issues, mental and physical (not physical issues that would have affected her ability to carry a foal) and is a stunning looking horse, but as someone said at that time, if you put a mare in foal, there is always a chance that you can lose the mare as well as the foal and I'm just not prepared to do that.


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

tankgirl1 said:



			Exactly, and so Dee's foal will not end up on DD being sat on by a full grown man at 2yo old!

I have read some of your threads and I know that Dee's baby will have a home for life, I don't have a problem with that at all 

I just don't like the horsey equivalent of back yard staffie breeders, who hope they will earn a few quid 

Click to expand...

I got dd = delicioa dee mixed up with dd = dragons driving 

my apologies! I thought you were having a snipe at me! :O


----------



## tankgirl1 (25 March 2013)

minesadouble said:



			I don't think that breeding from a much loved mare with the result being a 'keeper' is neccessarily indiscriminate breeding. 

It would probably be cheaper and more sensible to buy a well bred youngster but many people who have a mare they have really loved riding like the idea of having one of her offspring to keep. As long as they have the money, time, knowledge and facilities to do so I see nothing wrong in that.
		
Click to expand...

I meant dragondriving  Not Delicious_D


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

tankgirl1 said:



			I meant dragondriving  Not Delicious_D 

Click to expand...

I get that now  oops! 

Dragons driving is awful, i wont look on it and certainly wouldnt 'rescue' and line the breeders pockets....


----------



## tankgirl1 (25 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			I got dd = delicioa dee mixed up with dd = dragons driving 

my apologies! I thought you were having a snipe at me! :O
		
Click to expand...

No not at all!


----------



## Polos Mum (25 March 2013)

In the current climate (which won't change in the medium term for the horse industry) almost any breeding in unnecessary - there are 10,000s of unwanted horses of all shapes sizes and ages. 

Breeding rare breeds (suffolk punch, cleveland bay etc.) I could stretch to.

Breeding for yourself is fine if you have your own land with no mortgage and considerable ongoing disposable income - many many threads on here about 3/4 year old home breeds who were supposed to be 'keepers' but peoples circumstances have changed. 

I don't intend to make comment on you particularly OP - please don't take any offence.  I just have a personal very hard line on this and evey time I see 'free to good home' or equivalent facebook post it makes me think more and more I am right.


----------



## zigzag (25 March 2013)

Im staggered at the amount of breeding done by reputable studs that is indiscriminate e.g a top class Welsh A stud that inbreed so much, I bought  a colt foal off one ( he was going for meat) His mum and dad were full brother and sister, but because they had had a winner before they kept going. Poor pony was a rig (because of the breeding line) also had a parrot mouth but did turn into a lovely child's pony .  The other two I bought a filly and a colt (again going for meat) were inbred so much as well. 

People complain about people breeding the odd foal cos they fancy it, but people should take a look at these top class studs (Welsh A's and B's) that turn out show animals that win, I saw some sights of the way some of the "useless" ones that were kept in horrifying conditions that went for meat. 

The one stud had several ponies that were in a worst state than the horses found at spindles farm.  Did the RSPCA do anything, no, because the owner was a respected member of the Welsh pony and cob society and a respected judge.  (this was in 1992)


----------



## HBM1 (25 March 2013)

I definitely wouldn't say using an unproven stallion was necessarily "indiscriminate" - many breeders use them if they have the right temperament, conformation and bloodlines, because once they are proven they are more expensive.  I am sure there are many who would have wished they had used just two of the ones at Brendon as 2 year olds (Warrior and Don VHP Z) - I know I wish I had used the latter!!

anyway, to me indiscriminate is using any old stallion with no known breeding, poor conformation to a similar mare, with no real care as to what happens to the youngster..no medical care in pregnancy, no presence at the birth and foal surviving on a wing and a prayer to cost around £50 to £200.

I personally started off breeding to breed good sports horses with a view to selling them as foals.  Unfortunately, I am picky who I sell them to so I found two very good homes for two of them and have kept the other two to produce.  I am not breeding any more until I can do the same with any others as it is too hit and miss finding owners for babies.


----------



## minesadouble (25 March 2013)

tankgirl1 said:



			I meant dragondriving  Not Delicious_D 

Click to expand...

Ooops sorry - my mistake!!


----------



## tankgirl1 (25 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			I get that now  oops! 

Dragons driving is awful, i wont look on it and certainly wouldnt 'rescue' and line the breeders pockets....
		
Click to expand...

No worries my dear 

DD really IS indiscriminate breeding - makes my blood boil!


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

Polos Mum said:



			In the current climate (which won't change in the medium term for the horse industry) almost any breeding in unnecessary - there are 10,000s of unwanted horses of all shapes sizes and ages. 

Breeding rare breeds (suffolk punch, cleveland bay etc.) I could stretch to.

Breeding for yourself is fine if you have your own land with no mortgage and considerable ongoing disposable income - many many threads on here about 3/4 year old home breeds who were supposed to be 'keepers' but peoples circumstances have changed. 

I don't intend to make comment on you particularly OP - please don't take any offence.  I just have a personal very hard line on this and evey time I see 'free to good home' or equivalent facebook post it makes me think more and more I am right.
		
Click to expand...

I love suffolk punches  (sorry, seeing the name made me grin  - when i was a kid i wanted to own a pair and travel to work in a cart lead by them ).  I hate the 'free to good home'.....i always fele sorry for the poor horses as usually they are sick/injured 



zigzag said:



			Im staggered at the amount of breeding done by reputable studs that is indiscriminate e.g a top class Welsh A stud that inbreed so much, I bought  a colt foal off one ( he was going for meat) His mum and dad were full brother and sister, but because they had had a winner before they kept going. Poor pony was a rig (because of the breeding line) also had a parrot mouth but did turn into a lovely child's pony .  The other two I bought a filly and a colt (again going for meat) were inbred so much as well. 

People complain about people breeding the odd foal cos they fancy it, but people should take a look at these top class studs (Welsh A's and B's) that turn out show animals that win, I saw some sights of the way some of the "useless" ones that were kept in horrifying conditions that went for meat. 

The one stud had several ponies that were in a worst state than the horses found at spindles farm.  Did the RSPCA do anything, no, because the owner was a respected member of the Welsh pony and cob society and a respected judge.  (this was in 1992)
		
Click to expand...

I dont agree with some of the line breeding done nowadays....i understand some people do it to get a foal more like the bloodline they are trying to create but the genetic risks are far too great.



HBM1 said:



			I definitely wouldn't say using an unproven stallion was necessarily "indiscriminate" - many breeders use them if they have the right temperament, conformation and bloodlines, because once they are proven they are more expensive.  I am sure there are many who would have wished they had used just two of the ones at Brendon as 2 year olds (Warrior and Don VHP Z) - I know I wish I had used the latter!!

anyway, to me indiscriminate is using any old stallion with no known breeding, poor conformation to a similar mare, with no real care as to what happens to the youngster..no medical care in pregnancy, no presence at the birth and foal surviving on a wing and a prayer to cost around £50 to £200.

I personally started off breeding to breed good sports horses with a view to selling them as foals.  Unfortunately, I am picky who I sell them to so I found two very good homes for two of them and have kept the other two to produce.  I am not breeding any more until I can do the same with any others as it is too hit and miss finding owners for babies.
		
Click to expand...

I my definition of unproven is a stallion with poor bloodlines/unknown bloodlines who stands in a field, no real job etc. Young stallions are 'unproven' in the fact they are young and not really campaigned, but with good breeding they still have a worth. You dont just breed with whats in front of you but with the knowledge of how that stallion/mare came about. For instance, dee is a donnerhall x sao paulo, the stallion im choosing is ringo x may sherrif x alekander.


----------



## justabob (25 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			So is tethering thoroughbreds but each to their own i guess. 

Click to expand...

Do you have an issue with me thethering my TB?


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

justabob said:



			Do you have an issue with me thethering my TB?

Click to expand...

Yep, bloody alcoholic of an owner cant even remember where he is half the time . Dont worry...foalie will be tethered  ***joke - before i get lynched!***


----------



## HBM1 (25 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			I my definition of unproven is a stallion with poor bloodlines/unknown bloodlines who stands in a field, no real job etc. Young stallions are 'unproven' in the fact they are young and not really campaigned, but with good breeding they still have a worth. You dont just breed with whats in front of you but with the knowledge of how that stallion/mare came about. For instance, dee is a donnerhall x sao paulo, the stallion im choosing is ringo x may sherrif x alekander.
		
Click to expand...

I suppose I come at it from the point of view that I only breed sport horses (mostly for showjumping), so I use the top lines - they are the sort of "unproven" stallions I may use.  As it turns out, I have only used one unproven out of the four I have bred, but he went on to be quite special and is a son of Silvio I.  Other types of stallion don't cross my mind I'm afraid, but I see what you mean.


----------



## ester (25 March 2013)

Nightmare before Christmas said:



			Basically unless you are trying to breed a real quality competition horse I dont see the point as there are loads of 'okay' horses out there already! 




Click to expand...

Thing is most people don't want a real quality competition horse, most people want a nice RC allrounder and they aren't that easy to find!


----------



## Buds_mum (25 March 2013)

When people breed average mares to a an average/cheap stallion to give it a 'job' to do.

Most of the horses on DD! 

Saying this my horse is out of a sweet but pretty ordinary unregistered welsh mare by a very nice stallion. 
He was certainly worth being bred 

And dd is prob where I would look if I wanted a little cob youngster to bring on. 

So I'm just a hypocrite 

Dd I am so looking forward to seeing  what you and dee produce!


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

HBM1 said:



			I suppose I come at it from the point of view that I only breed sport horses (mostly for showjumping), so I use the top lines - they are the sort of "unproven" stallions I may use.  As it turns out, I have only used one unproven out of the four I have bred, but he went on to be quite special and is a son of Silvio I.  Other types of stallion don't cross my mind I'm afraid, but I see what you mean.
		
Click to expand...

Young stallions are risky as you never know if they will live up to the hype. You could use them and end up with a crackign horse from a stallions whos stud fee could end up in the 1000's....or risk a dud (in the nicest possible sense).

I've waited to see a crop or two of foals before committing to the stally...i love him anyway but you never know if he passes on his character, attributes etc, this one does.


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

Buds_mum said:



			When people breed average mares to a an average/cheap stallion to give it a 'job' to do.

Most of the horses on DD! 

Saying this my horse is out of a sweet but pretty ordinary unregistered welsh mare by a very nice stallion. 
He was certainly worth being bred 

And dd is prob where I would look if I wanted a little cob youngster to bring on. 

So I'm just a hypocrite 

Dd I am so looking forward to seeing  what you and dee produce!
		
Click to expand...

I need to change my name  too many DD's  *sniggers*

Im looking forward, gotta get her in foal first, there is no saying she will get pregnant...ill be gutted if i cant.


----------



## Buds_mum (25 March 2013)

Sending many ovulation, sperm meets egg vibes!!


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

Buds_mum said:



			Sending many ovulation, sperm meets egg vibes!!
		
Click to expand...

I was talking about this at work and my boss asked if i was having IVF  ahaha!


----------



## Buds_mum (25 March 2013)

Haha say you wish you would get three tries on the NHS


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

HAHA is it three trys or three cycles?  

I think she heard me on the phone to RM today asking where was my sperm


----------



## HBM1 (25 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			Young stallions are risky as you never know if they will live up to the hype. You could use them and end up with a crackign horse from a stallions whos stud fee could end up in the 1000's....or risk a dud (in the nicest possible sense).

I've waited to see a crop or two of foals before committing to the stally...i love him anyway but you never know if he passes on his character, attributes etc, this one does. 

Click to expand...

Lol unused to me is different to unproven.  In my sense, when looking at a young unproven stallion, I mean unproven in competition yet (mostly because they are too young at 2 or 3 years of age).  I had seen many foals from him though and all were superb.  

Regarding Amour G, I really have never seen a poor looking foal of his.  I have seen a fair few and Pippa has some gorgeous ones on her site doesn't she.  A couple of years ago she had a lovely colt and he was just the most adorable creature.  I almost used him on my trakehner mare as I think he would have suited her beautifully, but by then had decided not to breed again.  One day I may, he has the most gorgeous outline and he also has an aura around him - a funny humour too - that I really like.


----------



## Buds_mum (25 March 2013)

I just want to hear these phone conversations pahaha.


----------



## WelshD (25 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			I was talking about this at work and my boss asked if i was having IVF  ahaha!
		
Click to expand...

Off topic but I had a sheep having problems lambing, I sent a descriptive text message to my 'shepherd' friend describing in detail the vaginal oozing but without mentioning the word 'sheep' anywhere..... then sent it to my mum by mistake


----------



## Goldenstar (25 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			I was talking about this at work and my boss asked if i was having IVF  ahaha!
		
Click to expand...

Love this , I had a similar experiance when I shared a mare with my BF a vet we where AIing her are and talking about it at a party some one on the edge of the conversation thought we where " together" and paying a suffocate to have a baby !
My OH loved this teased me for weeks


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

HBM1 said:



			Lol unused to me is different to unproven.  In my sense, when looking at a young unproven stallion, I mean unproven in competition yet (mostly because they are too young at 2 or 3 years of age).  I had seen many foals from him though and all were superb.  

Regarding Amour G, I really have never seen a poor looking foal of his.  I have seen a fair few and Pippa has some gorgeous ones on her site doesn't she.  A couple of years ago she had a lovely colt and he was just the most adorable creature.  I almost used him on my trakehner mare as I think he would have suited her beautifully, but by then had decided not to breed again.  One day I may, he has the most gorgeous outline and he also has an aura around him - a funny humour too - that I really like.
		
Click to expand...

He's just stunning isnt he  really stands out to me.  I am lucky i have family/friends all over the country who have seen him and said he is just stunning in real life.  I've spoken to the owners of some of the foals Amour G has produced and they all comment on their good attitude to life and easiness of character.


----------



## Roasted Chestnuts (25 March 2013)

breeding crap from crap by crap is my definition.

I wouldnt breed from anything I hadnt proven in the ring/competition arena. I did toy with the idea of breeding from my last mare (not a maiden, well put together and very talented) but alas too expensive and will be cheaper to buy when I need than keep and breed but thats my circumstances.

If your breeding your own horse to create another for your self that you are going to keep then I personally dont see the harm in it as long as your doing the above


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

Buds_mum said:



			I just want to hear these phone conversations pahaha.
		
Click to expand...

haha it was funny, poor RM guy 



WelshD said:



			Off topic but I had a sheep having problems lambing, I sent a descriptive text message to my 'shepherd' friend describing in detail the vaginal oozing but without mentioning the word 'sheep' anywhere..... then sent it to my mum by mistake 

Click to expand...

PMSL!!!! haha!



Goldenstar said:



			Love this , I had a similar experiance when I shared a mare with my BF a vet we where AIing her are and talking about it at a party some one on the edge of the conversation thought we where " together" and paying a suffocate to have a baby !
My OH loved this teased me for weeks
		
Click to expand...

HAHA honesty, non horsey people must think we are nuts!


----------



## RunToEarth (25 March 2013)

I dont breed. When I was looking for my last horse I was met with "why dont you get a mare and then if it goes lame you can put it in foal." 

Heard it so many times, seen so many people do it, just because they feel their money isn't lost, often at the compromise of a badly bred foal.

I never get world beaters, we dont need them at ours, good, honest horses with a fair amount of talent are out there, and that's all we want.


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

I completely understand RTE - you do have some stunning horses. A horse, in my eyes, has to be destined for a job. So if you are going to breed, it should be for a job.


----------



## Goldenstar (25 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			I completely understand RTE - you do have some stunning horses. A horse, in my eyes, has to be destined for a job. So if you are going to breed, it should be for a job.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with this but it's perfectly ok to set out to breed a nice ordinary alrounder if that's what you want.


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (25 March 2013)

ester said:



			Thing is most people don't want a real quality competition horse, most people want a nice RC allrounder and they aren't that easy to find!
		
Click to expand...

There are plenty of those out there already they dont need breeding till we run out of the ones we have already


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

nothing wrong with alrounders....but the mare and stallion should be of good quality


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (25 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			nothing wrong with alrounders....but the mare and stallion should be of good quality
		
Click to expand...

I think what I am trying to say is people shouldnt breed to be an alrounder as many horses bred to be high level comp horses that dont make it make perfect alround horses 

Otherwise you get lesser bred horses as alrounders and less talented comp horses as allrounders and then there is loads of horses a bit like now. I think europe have the right idea


----------



## Roasted Chestnuts (25 March 2013)

Nightmare before Christmas said:



			There are plenty of those out there already they dont need breeding till we run out of the ones we have already  

Click to expand...

Hmm i dont really agree, the market is flooded with exracers who are marketed as allrounders (ive know a fair few to whom poles on the ground would mean you die) and also alot of cobs again marketed as allrounders yes at a lower level or someone who doesnt want to compete about 2ft6 or novice dressage then fine  Not picking on those two specifically just what Im seeing.

Anything decent is sometimes priced either far too high for what it is If its coloured it seems to double  ) or has issues hence the lower price 'but could be a good allrounder with some schooling' and some you look at the pics of them and think wht the heck is that and why is it there !!! on their anatomy 

Just from musing through the various For Sale websites not speaking as gospel


----------



## Goldenstar (25 March 2013)

Nightmare before Christmas said:



			There are plenty of those out there already they dont need breeding till we run out of the ones we have already  

Click to expand...

People have the right to breed from a nice alrounder they own rather than wading through legions of c**p to find a horse if that's what they chose to spend there money doing.


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (25 March 2013)

Black Beastie said:



			Hmm i dont really agree, the market is flooded with exracers who are marketed as allrounders (ive know a fair few to whom poles on the ground would mean you die) and also alot of cobs again marketed as allrounders yes at a lower level or someone who doesnt want to compete about 2ft or novice dressage then fine  Not picking on those two specifically just what Im seeing.

Anything decent is sometimes priced either far too high for what it is If its coloured it seems to double  ) or has issues hence the lower price 'but could be a good allrounder with some schooling' and some you look at the pics of them and think wht the heck is that and why is it there !!! on their anatomy 

Just from musing through the various For Sale websites not speaking as gospel 

Click to expand...

Hmm true! There are alot of allrounders! I too have been browsing sales sites as looking for something for myself and there is an awful lot of allround types but nothing that has caught my eye as a young comp prospect. I guess horses for courses


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (25 March 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			People have the right to breed from a nice alrounder they own rather than wading through legions of c**p to find a horse if that's what they chose to spend there money doing.
		
Click to expand...

Oh I dont have an issue with people breeding something to keep for themselves, I mean people who breed allrounders to sell on year after year when there is already loads


----------



## Goldenstar (25 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			nothing wrong with alrounders....but the mare and stallion should be of good quality
		
Click to expand...

Finding nice alrounder stallions is not that easy unless you are after a bigger type and can use an nice ID .


----------



## RunToEarth (25 March 2013)

Thank you D_D, I love our boys to bits, sometimes I wonder how I used to cope with a mare! I always love to watch how people have brought foals on, it must be such an achievement to be Sat on a lovely home bred horse a few years on the line, and I can understand that as a reason for breeding. I do agree you need the breeding to start with, this is where people muck up imo.


----------



## tankgirl1 (25 March 2013)

Cor Blimey! This thread is really sorting the breeders from the buyers! Some rather defensive replies!


----------



## Goldenstar (25 March 2013)

Nightmare before Christmas said:



			I think what I am trying to say is people shouldnt breed to be an alrounder as many horses bred to be high level comp horses that dont make it make perfect alround horses 

Otherwise you get lesser bred horses as alrounders and less talented comp horses as allrounders and then there is loads of horses a bit like now. I think europe have the right idea 

Click to expand...

But less talented competion horses are often not suitable alrounders being breed to be reactive .
Much much better to buy a purpose bred allrounder than a failed competion type .


----------



## rara007 (25 March 2013)

'I think what I am trying to say is people shouldnt breed to be an alrounder as many horses bred to be high level comp horses that dont make it make perfect alround horses'

I'm not sure of the truth in that- many horses bred to be the next Grand Prix horse are very sharp and high maintenance, and by definition athletic. Not that Im breeding and or ever plan to!


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (25 March 2013)

Hmm I actually get your point the more I think of it but I dont have an issue with sharp comp horses so maybe thats why I am generalizing this way? 

I like sharp responsive horses I struggle to enjoy anything else.

Okay I get your point! 

Though not all comp horses are sharp, ive sat on some right donkeys in the past that a novice (my dad) has been able to hack out and bobble round the school on. 

I guess its all down to the individual horse :/


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

IMHO a compition horse i sbred to be reactive, where as an alround needs to be sensibly reactive.... I have seen too many too sharp horses with oodles of talent but the wrong attitude. 

There are a few bloodlines i would steer clear from....one part of breeding is knowing your mare, and not just the horse in front of you. With good breeding you look back 2 or even  generations and see what type of horse was produced, as this gives you an idea of what is possible.


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

Nightmare before Christmas said:



			Hmm I actually get your point the more I think of it but I dont have an issue with sharp comp horses so maybe thats why I am generalizing this way? 

I like sharp responsive horses I struggle to enjoy anything else.

Okay I get your point! 

Though not all comp horses are sharp, ive sat on some right donkeys in the past that a novice (my dad) has been able to hack out and bobble round the school on. 

I guess its all down to the individual horse :/
		
Click to expand...

But here comes the question, are they sharp due to nature or nurture(sp?)... TB's come in all shapes and sizes, as do warmbloods....


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

RunToEarth said:



			Thank you D_D, I love our boys to bits, sometimes I wonder how I used to cope with a mare! I always love to watch how people have brought foals on, it must be such an achievement to be Sat on a lovely home bred horse a few years on the line, and I can understand that as a reason for breeding. I do agree you need the breeding to start with, this is where people muck up imo.
		
Click to expand...

Well you know i love your horses. Very well bred and perfect for their jobs.


----------



## Queenbee (25 March 2013)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/7939187.stm


Although I have to say that at the moment (no offence dd) I would love for it to be possible for a full ban on breeding until there are less horses, a better market and licensing put in place.  Regardless of the fact that we may miss out on breeding from quality horses by doing that, in my opinion there will always be quality, but at the moment there needs to be action to be taken against breeding dross, infact breeding in general.  I dont agree with a quick fire fix, something well thought out to prevent this happening again and some time to let the equine population naturally thin out is very much needed in my opinion.


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (25 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			But here comes the question, are they sharp due to nature or nurture(sp?)... TB's come in all shapes and sizes, as do warmbloods....
		
Click to expand...

I was going to go onto this but thought that was a can of worms 

I have known allrounder types be sharp but sadly talentless making them difficult to market and ive know laid back comp horses that need a bit of motivation to get the job done.

I guess there is a big mix from both ends. To me though horses are for sport really and I am happy with that 

I guess people want different things and so the ideal horse doesnt really exist overall.... its more to the individual and unless you try and breed the perfect foal its hard to produce for each individual

Now im just confused as have too many variables floating round my head :/


----------



## Delicious_D (25 March 2013)

Nightmare before Christmas said:



			I was going to go onto this but thought that was a can of worms 

I have known allrounder types be sharp but sadly talentless making them difficult to market and ive know laid back comp horses that need a bit of motivation to get the job done.

I guess there is a big mix from both ends. To me though horses are for sport really and I am happy with that 

I guess people want different things and so the ideal horse doesnt really exist overall.... its more to the individual and unless you try and breed the perfect foal its hard to produce for each individual

Now im just confused as have too many variables floating round my head :/
		
Click to expand...

I have a headache


----------



## Goldenstar (25 March 2013)

The thing If you breed for yourself you take what the fates send you and get on with it.


----------



## Goodshipblossom (26 March 2013)

Breeders who have a herd of whatever and every year get a new "crop" of foals and expect to sell them in the autumn and have literally no back up plan for them if they are not sold and then refuse to take responsibility when they have unsold foals- it's the buyers' fault for not wanting what "will make a cracking riding pony". This isn't the 60s any more, most people want something 4 or more that is broken in, not all I know, but most people.

I also feel like breeders breeding to find that really good competition horse just end up producing loads of horses that aren't really good "family horses" as aren't good doers/easy going and don't make it competing either.

So essentially it's all breeders I'm annoyed with! When I see all these horses going for meat I think, where's the breeder now???


----------



## Charley657 (26 March 2013)

For me indiscriminate breeding is getting a mare in foal because she has no other job to do and/or because you want to make a little money from it.  

I've worked with a woman who was too overweight to ride her mare so she put her into foal instead and her goal was to lose enough weight to be able to ride both her mare and the foal (obviously once it became old enough!).  I saw her a couple of years ago and she looked the same size.  I've no idea if she still has her mare or the lovely little (I hope by now) gelding.  

I think horses should be like dogs, don't breed unless you know what you are doing.  If you don't, go to a reputable breeder who does. 

Hope you got your sperm today.


----------



## Delicious_D (26 March 2013)

Sperm arrived ta  *sniggers* had some fun with RM winding them up over it


----------



## HBM1 (26 March 2013)

Goodshipblossom - I think it a bit much to tar "all" breeders with the same brush. Many are very responsible and if you ask more than one sport horse breeder you will find they don't just breed for the top and temperament is very important. In my own case I like to think any of my foals can go on to be ridden by any competent rider but yes, I am sure we would all love to breed a horse capable of jumping a course worthy of any Grade A. Personally, as I have said previously I have given up expecting to sell as foals..lovely if it happens..but I anticipate keeping until under saddle - a lot think the same now too. We are not all the same and frankly, if people did not breed horses where on earth do you think yours would have come from?


----------



## Ancient Hacker (26 March 2013)

I might get shot for this, but in this time of economic woe, I have concerns about ANY breeding where the breeder has no certainty as to what will become of the progeny. At the moment I am especially concerned about racehorses being bred in the usual quantities, and a market (here in S Africa) that is simply not buying at the yearling sales. 

The reality is that horses are costly beasts; horse racing is a business, and I fear for what will become of the flow of beautifully-bred young race horses entering a market with very few buyers. It's unrealistic to expect them to be kept on indefinitely by breeders, I think.

Indiscriminate breeding, in a way....


----------



## Spring Feather (26 March 2013)

Goodshipblossom said:



			Breeders who have a herd of whatever and every year get a new "crop" of foals and expect to sell them in the autumn and have literally no back up plan for them if they are not sold and then refuse to take responsibility when they have unsold foals- it's the buyers' fault for not wanting what "will make a cracking riding pony". This isn't the 60s any more, most people want something 4 or more that is broken in, not all I know, but most people.
		
Click to expand...

I live in a different country to you so I'll give you a bit of info from my perspective.  The horse market here can be quite different to the horse market in the UK and the prices of horses vary hugely depending on bloodlines and what breed/registry the mares/foals are registered with.  I know a huge amount of breeders over here but I don't know any breeders like you are describing above.  Some of the breeders I know are similar to me in that they expect to sell their weanlings (and usually do) but some years are better than others and so as responsible breeders we have contingency plans whereby we keep the horses until they are under saddle.  By keeping them until they are under saddle gives greater financial benefits so it's not really a big issue for most of the breeders I know.  To give you a better idea, obviously the market fluctuates by year but a nicely bred warmblood weanling will sell over here (atm) for between 9,500 and 18,000 whereas a 3 year old under saddle will sell for significantly more.




			I also feel like breeders breeding to find that really good competition horse just end up producing loads of horses that aren't really good "family horses" as aren't good doers/easy going and don't make it competing either.
		
Click to expand...

Well that's kind of an odd thing to say and it would be interesting to hear the responses from British breeders to your comment.  WB breeders here, just like in the UK, breed for different disciplines; sj, dressage obviously but we also have a huge hunter market in the States and people doing hunters are looking for quiet horses therefore the horses bred are easily rideable by amateurs as well as professionals, for the most part.  You'll know what I mean if you've ever watched American hunter classes.




			So essentially it's all breeders I'm annoyed with! When I see all these horses going for meat I think, where's the breeder now???
		
Click to expand...

But only because you don't really understand the different levels of breeding?  How many breeders do you personally know?  If the ones you know are all like how you describe in your post then I see why you might think the same of all breeders.  But you would be wrong to tar every breeder with the same brush.

As a general comment, I do often think on this forum there is a great misunderstanding between breeders breeding quality horses who have been produced from successful proven horses compared to the backyard breeder who breeds his mare to any old stallion around and then sells his youngstock for a just a few hundred pounds.

All of my stock are registered and either microchipped or branded so can always be traced back to me (their breeder) and any horse I have bred or raised will always have a home here if it runs into trouble.  I tell all of my buyers this and I keep close track of all of my horses once they've been sold.  I am also registered with the tracer companies whereby I state I will always take back a horse I've bred/produced.  To be perfectly honest the vast majority of the breeders I know do exactly the same as me.


----------



## EstherYoung (26 March 2013)

It's like the old inbreeding/linebreeding argument:
- I linebreed, whereas 'im dahn t'road inbreeds
- My breedings are all carefully considered, whereas 'im dahn t'road indiscriminately breeds



I don't breed, but I did buy two youngsters. One was Wolf, who was bred by my friend to keep but then she ended up getting divorced and she could only keep one pony (Wolf's dam). He is a bit of a weird cross and a gamble on my friend's part. I think he's fairly unique and certainly not conventional, but there's something about him and it works. His sire has just lightened his mum's frame off slightly and has smoothed out the paces. The other was Felix, who is the last of a line of very successful full siblings from their sire and dam - the sire and dam were in their 20s when they had him, very much a 'love match', and Felix was their breeder's last ditch attempt to get a filly to keep from her very special mare (she just lurved having colts...). As we already had his full brother his breeder then wore us down till we took Felix too.

The way I look at breeding is that each breeding is potentially 20+ years of horse. If you're not prepared to at least try and look out for that horse for those 20+ years, then you're breeding indiscriminately. Felix's breeder recently went above and beyond on a mercy mission to see some of her 'grandkids' right when they fell on hard times - now that's responsible.


----------



## Equilibrium Ireland (26 March 2013)

Spring Feather, American living in Ireland here. Everything you said is obviously correct. However, what freaks people out here is the abandoned horses and the surplus. Which we have back home too but not really in the sport horse sector. The English discipline horses geared for major shows or "hunter breeding" will be making the money but people are a bit more picky at home as well as here. During the good times anything sold. Not so much anymore. The most popular breeds back home(I just saw this) are: QH, Appaloosa, Arabian, Paint, and then TB. And don't forget the ever increasing popular budget horse, the OTTB. 

I said my peace on Dee's thread. I have had progeny from my one mare do well. I won't breed from her anymore as I have her daughter in competition. The next generation. However, any foal is a 5 year plan from conception to starting under saddle and to possible training shows at 4. I really would prefer I start them before offering for sale. So yeah I try to look a little bit in the future. And while anything can happen at anytime, I still want the 5 year plan in my head. 

And I'll tell you another thing, blaming the breeder for everything. Cop on. The amount of too much too soon and poor training adds up to quite a bit of waste too. Henceforth why I prefer to keep mine until started under saddle. Raised well and started properly gives them that little bit more of a chance. I like how ruined horses are always the breeders fault and the good they do is all down to the rider. Funny that. 

Terri


----------



## Equilibrium Ireland (26 March 2013)

A full ban on breeding means the careless people will still breed. Jumping fences will become the norm. 

You can put liscenses in place and people like me would comply. But trying to do that when the passport system doesn't work is a joke. And honest breeders will pay more to fund the irresponsible breeders. 

Also with regards to top class competition horses. Once they reach that level, yes they are highly tuned machines. Does not mean that had they not had all that training and specialised skills, they couldn't have been decent all rounders. Obviously some aren't suited. But breeding for temperament is always in your mind when breeding competition horses. No one wants to breed a looney suitable for a pro ride only. And pro's don't want to ride loonies either you know. They can deal with them but the straight forward horse with all the grears and ability suits them better. 

Terri


----------



## Dry Rot (26 March 2013)

I don't think it matters a hoot what class of horse or pony you are breeding, it is "indiscriminate" if there is no market for your stock, even if you are breeding for yourself. Life happens and if events decide you can't keep the foal, it has to be sold. If there is no market, it might have to go for meat or "free to good home". It has been "indiscriminately bred" and that's what happens.

The acid test will always be what sells. I've a friend who is a farmer. He got involved with a girl who was well connected in the sports horse world. They started breeding sports horses and did well. Then they split up and the farmer was left with the horses. What with the knowledgeable side of the business leaving and a collapse in the market, he would be crazy to keep breeding, even quality horses, as they can be bought in cheaper. He can't sell what he has, let alone afford the care they used to get.

If there is a market for what you intend to breed, do the sums and make a decision. I don't care if you are producing top class beautiful athletic horses with the perfect temperament that break themselves, if there is no market, that is indiscriminate breeding in my eyes. Harsh but realistic. Don't breed if you can buy similar cheaper.


----------



## ester (26 March 2013)

I don't want a 'competition horse' that wasn't good enough to make the grade, I'd want a nice part-bred that could maybe jump a meter, nanny me round a BE90, look after me on the hunt field, be sensible on the hills/beach and ignore my mad moments when I have a desperation to play gymkhana games again   - as do a lot of your average joes-- well maybe not the games bit  

I agree DD that both parents should then be of a reasonable quality but suspect temperament then has to preside over actual ability!  

and no.. there really aren't that many of them out there to do the above... at various times over the years I've looked .


----------



## Crugeran Celt (26 March 2013)

This is a difficult one as there are many people who have a nice mare and decide to breed, I did it with a Welsh Sect D X TB X Arab and put her to a TB stallion that was as at a very reputable stud close by. They had 5 TB stallions at stud that year. She produced a lovely very TB ish filly who only made 14.2hh, was aiming for something a little bigger but never had any intention of selling and I still have her now, she will be 20 in July. I think the guilty ones are the ones who breed year in year out without really knowing or caring where that foal is going to end up and not really thinking or caring what quality the off spring is going to be. Even if they breed an ok type they are not prepared to keep it long enough to teach it any basic manners that are so important at the early stage. That is what i would class as indiscriminate.


----------



## BBP (26 March 2013)

I have a question D_D, if you breed your lovely mare to a lively stallion with the aim of improving on Dees weak areas, what will you do if the foal is not up to scratch? If it throws back some conformation problems that make it not the horse you dreamt of? Would you still keep it forever it would you sell it and try again? (genuine question, as I often wonder this when people breed from much loved mares but for competition).


----------



## BBP (26 March 2013)

'lovely' stallion that should have said!


----------



## Spit That Out (26 March 2013)

My definition is...

Someone who owns a mare and then breeds just because the mare can no longer be ridden/do what she was originally owned for.
People who own stallions and puts him to any mare passing by.
People who breed just to sell to the meat man when they can't find a mug to buy the ickle pony.
Studs that churn out horse after horse just on the off chance that one might show potential and don't care what happens to the others.
People who buy youngsters thinking that they know what they are doing which encourages breeders to breed more to feed the market.

There are a lot of horsey folks out there who own horses that in their passport have sire/dam unknown...


----------



## Delicious_D (26 March 2013)

KatPT. Keep it. . Dees issues are minute not huge so I know that the issues won't be huge. Likewise I know dee's dam and her granddam and of course her sure. I've also loved at the stallion, his foals and the types of mares he's been with the gauge all of this. But, it's still a risk. . I'd still love it no matter what


----------



## Equilibrium Ireland (26 March 2013)

I got my mare when she was in foal to a stallion I wasn't crazy about. The foal was a full TB. It was not a good match for the mare overall. Everyone else thinks Heidi is beautiful. I see a lot of things I'm not crazy about. However, she an absolute diamond and a horse is never part with. For a ginger TB she's just the best. Safe for a total beginner and yet you can still have fun. Not the most talented but she doesn't need to be. She will never be sold as I value her too much and I do not want someone else breeding from her. 

That answers the question above although not directed to me. Heidi is now 9 and she's going nowhere. 

Terri


----------



## Lady La La (26 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			KatPT. Keep it. . Dees issues are minute not huge so I know that the issues won't be huge.
		
Click to expand...

Doesn't the mare have Kissing Spine, SI problems and suspensory issues? 
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it hasn't yet been proven whether or not KS is genetic, so IMO, thats already a huge gamble.
I realise the vet has passed the mare as fit to foal (although, having seen her vets report I must say I was shocked by this,) and Im sure Delicious_D wont take offence to my comments as its just my own opinion, and I've been honest with her from the start in regards to my feelings on her breeding from Delicia, which are that I don't think its sensible or wise. 

That being said, Delicia is a lovely mare, and if it were not for the KS and various other issues that the mare has been subject to recently, I would have  been completely behind the decision to put her in foal to a suitable stallion.


----------



## Delicious_D (26 March 2013)

The KS were ruled it as an issue as we focus on the pelvis he had no pain response in the back. Suspensories were just normal wear and tear and she has no more heat spots. After that report I got a second opinion. Delicia is healed and sound.


----------



## springtime13 (26 March 2013)

Personally, I feel you should only breed the best with the best. So, unless a mare and stallion are proven (meaning in my opinion that they have won at a national level or above - not a few rosettes at local dressage/shows) and perfect (no physical or mental issues at all). Anything other than this is a massive compromise. My warmblood mare is very well bred and lovely etc but has suspected SI issues, would I breed from her? no way. In fact, I've just been gifted a lovely little 4 year old who was homebred by a caring owner and then through bad luck found itself homeless.


----------



## Lady La La (26 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			The KS were ruled it as an issue as we focus on the pelvis he had no pain response in the back. Suspensories were just normal wear and tear and she has no more heat spots. After that report I got a second opinion. Delicia is healed and sound. 

Click to expand...

So, all of a sudden the mare doesn't have KS  The hind suspensory problem may well be just wear and tear, but putting her in foal will add to that ten fold, and... the SI problems? 
Sorry, I just cant see how from that vets report the mare is suddenly fit as a fiddle and ready to have a foal. If that really is the case, I'd be wanting your original vet struck off 

It doesn't take away from what a lovely mare she is, but as I've said to you all along, if she were mine, she wouldn't be going anywhere near a stallion.


----------



## springtime13 (26 March 2013)

Can I just ask, if Dee is healed and sound - why are you putting into foal rather than riding her? I don't follow your threads massively, but I thought she had big problems and then was coming right before lameness etc.


----------



## Delicious_D (26 March 2013)

Because I have my own issues with my back. With work busy as hell and my own back giving me issues I've given myself time off. 

Since the original vet I've had two other vets look and they agree it isn't anywhere near as bad as first reported... The SI issue was a ligament apparently. I can only call it as I see it. Dee's never looked better and never moved better.


----------



## Lady La La (26 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			Because I have my own issues with my back. With work busy as hell and my own back giving me issues I've given myself time off. 

Since the original vet I've had two other vets look and they agree it isn't anywhere near as bad as first reported... The SI issue was a ligament apparently. I can only call it as I see it. Dee's never looked better and never moved better. 

Click to expand...

I find that really hard to believe, sorry  

Anyway, good luck with getting your mare in foal.


----------



## Crugeran Celt (26 March 2013)

springtime13 said:



			Personally, I feel you should only breed the best with the best. So, unless a mare and stallion are proven (meaning in my opinion that they have won at a national level or above - not a few rosettes at local dressage/shows) and perfect (no physical or mental issues at all). 

I don't agree, many people want a 'happy hacker' or an animal they can have fun with at riding club or taking part at small local shows and these don't need to be bred from horses winning at national level or above. Using only horses of this standard could possibly put the price of horses out of reach of the average 'horsey' family. Many excellent riding ponies have been bred with neither parent being known as many people will see on the passports. It is a problem when 'breeders' keep producing horses and ponies that have no future other than the meat market.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Polos Mum (26 March 2013)

ester said:



			I don't want a 'competition horse' that wasn't good enough to make the grade, I'd want a nice part-bred that could maybe jump a meter, nanny me round a BE90, look after me on the hunt field, be sensible on the hills/beach and ignore my mad moments when I have a desperation to play gymkhana games again   - as do a lot of your average joes-- well maybe not the games bit  

I agree DD that both parents should then be of a reasonable quality but suspect temperament then has to preside over actual ability!  

and no.. there really aren't that many of them out there to do the above... at various times over the years I've looked .
		
Click to expand...

Just a thought but given the cost of breeding quality (must be £2000 ish - vets, stud etc.) and then waiting 3/4 years (inc livery - so another £15,000 over that time ) then breaking etc. surely you could reschool something in that time with that cash? 

My boy is a 'failed' competition horse he competed eventing 4* (badly, but nicely 3*), so I assume he must have been sharp/ reponsive at some point.  It took a relatively basic 12 months reschooling (I'm no expert by any means, just no crazy feed and patients) and now he's the perfect allrounder, nice novice dressage, happy to go in a group to the beach, happy on hound exercise etc. XC when I have my brave pants on !! - the  odd moment to check I'm still paying attention (his character rather than his past I think) 

He's an irish mutt of no known breeding


----------



## Wagtail (26 March 2013)

I think it is perfectly reasonable to breed from a much loved mare if you intend to give the foal a home for life, even if that mare is unproven competitively, and has less than perfect conformation. However, IMO it is not acceptable to breed from such a mare with the intention of selling the foal.


----------



## Delicious_D (26 March 2013)

With all due respect ladylala, you also didn't believe I owned dee from a 3 year old. Sorry you feel im putting my mare at risk but that just shows how little you know about me really. I have had several vets, physios, chiropractors farrier etc look at her. All agree now. At the end of the day what I choose to do with my mar eis my choice. Everything is a risk. Foaling down risks any mare just as any pregnancy is a risk. But if people didn't take risks you wouldn't have the horses you own and call your own. 

Thanks for the good luck wishes. But please, dont worry about dee. She's my pride and joy


----------



## Crugeran Celt (26 March 2013)

Wagtail I agree, bred mine 20 years ago from a mare that had done well locally and was a delightful little horse, the filly didn't turn out as expected, only reached 14.2hh but I have kept her and she will stay with me until the day she dies, now rising 20 had major health issues and has been 'retired' since the age of 6. I chose to have her and she will always be my responsibility through sickness and through health, mostly sickness Never mind she is happy and healthy now.


----------



## Equilibrium Ireland (26 March 2013)

Here's a thought instead of attacking one person. Do some hunting and research. See how many big studs breed from OCD horses. How many breed from mares that in fact have done nothing. And maybe in the 3rd dam they have decent progeny. Big breeders will insist OCD isn't hereditary and that it's all due to management. BS. While I have no scientific proof I can tell you certain stallion lines, and through their mares, had a much higher incident of OCD than others. This was all in racing because I got on a lot of similar lines. They weren't all raised the same way. I used to get on a mare that couldn't even get up to a breeze she was so crippled. They paid 3.2million for her. She was bred and has produced black type winners as well as some not so great ones that I'm sure were also bred. 

The types of breedings we are talking about here didn't create the massive surplus in horses. But because you can't go after them you attack here. Oh wait a minute, maybe we should all rally around those people and start fund raising for them. Talk about how hard done by they are. Blame the RSPCA for a witch hunt. People buying the sad cases because they deserve a chance at life keep idiots like you find on DD and the other irresponsible breeders in business. I work hard for my money and I'm not going to have a barn full of no pedigree badly put together horses because other people don't think before they breed. Maybe that's harsh but do something about those people. If the surplus of horses really gets to you then get something done about those people. Coming here and ripping apart one person for breeding her one mare isn't a solution. 

Terri


----------



## Lady La La (26 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			With all due respect ladylala, you also didn't believe I owned dee from a 3 year old. Sorry you feel im putting my mare at risk but that just shows how little you know about me really. I have had several vets, physios, chiropractors farrier etc look at her. All agree now. At the end of the day what I choose to do with my mar eis my choice. Everything is a risk. Foaling down risks any mare just as any pregnancy is a risk. But if people didn't take risks you wouldn't have the horses you own and call your own. 

Thanks for the good luck wishes. But please, dont worry about dee. She's my pride and joy 

Click to expand...

Incorrect, I remember you buying Dee as a three year old... as a very well established three year old, competing very successfully... you put up a picture in Misfits, remember  In fact I think you were saying that you believe she was put under too much strain and they asked too much of her too young. I remember agreeing that you were probably right, since the mare was competing at such a decent level so young.

What you choose to do with your mare IS your choice, but since Im the person you came to for advice, brandishing a vets report clearly stating that your mare has Kissing Spine, Sacroiliac Joint issues and hind suspensory troubles... and I spent a great deal of time advising you and helping you to the best of my ability... imagine my surprise when I hear you are planning on putting it in foal 

Sorry, DD, but I've been honest with you from the start about this and I don't think your mare is suitable to breed from. That doesn't mean that I don't think she isn't a lovely mare, or that you dont care for her. If you choose to take offence, thats your call, but my comments are not meant with malice, only concern. 
You have said you are following your (new) vets advice, and so if that is the case, I wish you and Delicia all the luck in the world.


----------



## Delicious_D (26 March 2013)

See was being backed when I bought her. She competed in sheer water classes when I owned her.   I have a great amount of respect for you so shall agree to disagree.


----------



## Goldenstar (26 March 2013)

I do think think it's a bit strange that there is an attitude that I will call them hobby breeders ( not being rude but need a handle to try to explain myself) get blamed for indescrimanate breeding and no one worrys about the big studs and the massive numbers of strange shaped creatures with no breeding that come in from Ireland .
And people say you should not breed why not if you can afford it and want to why not as long as you have the ability to work on with young ones and a creditable plan for a job for the horse .
You need to understand you may have to sell them I did this twice one was too big and very bolsy and difficult for because of its size because I had not had my hip replacement at that time I sold to a some one I know for a local pro to ride she was sold on again later.
Another a lovely sweet horse regularily getting very high percentages unaffiliated just did not enjoy jumping much above a metre and she wasnot quite up to my husbands wieght so she went to be a school mistress in a deal sent up a friend who's a dealer and producer shes was a complete star for that family and has foals of her own now.
And you have to understand you might have to brave and cull I have done this twice once for a one with a very nasty temperament and once when one was injured in the field and did not come right.
And it's great fun having them its not cost effective which is ultimately why I stopped but we had loads of pleasure from them.


----------



## Goldenstar (26 March 2013)

Just to add in studs all over there will be mares with far far worse health / soundness issues than DD's mare churning out foals the difference is DD is very upfront about her mare.


----------



## Equilibrium Ireland (26 March 2013)

GS, the term hobby breeder should never be taken in a snide way just like you describe. It simply means you don't make a living from breeding. Agree with your post %150. 

Terri


----------



## Equilibrium Ireland (26 March 2013)

Hope that comes out right! Meaning I agree with what you said but people see hobby breeding as something disrespectful and cheap. 

Terri


----------



## Delicious_D (26 March 2013)

Agreed GS. A LOT of dressage mares who have tendon issues have a foal whilst they heal. I'm 100% honest about DD but the market shouldn't be concerned as the foals for me


----------



## ponypilotmum (26 March 2013)

We've a mare who is literally everything we ever wanted, and the thought of losing her terrifies me. I spent YEARS looking for her. She's exceptionally well bred, but has the temperament of a saint. She hasn't won huge national classes, because she's been used as a PC pony because of her temperament and she hasn't got the wow factor when doing LR (she does have it FR though). 
She has health issues which have come from age. 

Would I breed from her? 

In a word, no. I won't risk her happiness and health on a whim of wanting something for myself.


----------



## Goldenstar (26 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			Agreed GS. A LOT of dressage mares who have tendon issues have a foal whilst they heal. I'm 100% honest about DD but the market shouldn't be concerned as the foals for me 

Click to expand...

That's exactly the point you will get your foal and get on with giving it a nice life and accept what you get sent.
As for the issues your mare has had you will very careful with your foal ,it's life style issues your mare had and you will manage your foals work carefully and I don't believe that having a foal is going to cause the mare any issues at all .
I wish you luck and will enjoy watching the story now I don't have my own.


----------



## Lady La La (26 March 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			As for the issues your mare has had you will very careful with your foal ,it's life style issues your mare had and you will manage your foals work carefully
		
Click to expand...

Its not the foal I have concern for.



Goldenstar said:



			Just to add in studs all over there will be mares with far far worse health / soundness issues than DD's mare churning out foals the difference is DD is very upfront about her mare.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, but just because somebody somewhere is doing worse, doesn't make putting a mare with Kissing Spine (et al) in foal, OK. 
I struggle to believe that any vet would have OK'd the mare to foal, or that the original vet could have got his findings *so* wrong, but like anything, it is entirely possible, and as I've said to DD if she is following the advice of her vet, then best of luck to her. 
Just having a look at her BD results now, she's a talented little mare, hopefully she'll throw a lovely foal. As I've already said DD, all the best with her. Just because I dont think you ought to be putting her in foal doesn't mean that I don't plan to ogle the pictures of her or the foal when I see them


----------



## RealityCheck (26 March 2013)

I am one of the best breeders in my country, for my preferred sport. That isn't an arrogant comment, it's a fact. But this will be my last crop for at least five years, probably forever.

Despite knowing I could sell more foals, I don't feel it is responsible when there is such a surplus, and in economic times when you never know where a foal will end up if it ends up sold on.

I know my horses are classy, but bred to have a temperament suitable for less confident riders and handlers, because I feel that makes them easier to place in homes. If temperament was viewed as being as essential in breeding sports horses in the UK, as it is for me maybe there would be fewer issues? 

As an aside, it honestly irritates me so much when someone says they are breeding and quality doesn't matter because it's a foal for them. You have no idea what's just around the corner - I have mares and a stallion I said I'd never sell, but my health problems mean I have to.


----------



## Goldenstar (26 March 2013)

Lady La La said:



			Its not the foal I have concern for.



Sorry, but just because somebody somewhere is doing worse, doesn't make putting a mare with Kissing Spine (et al) in foal, OK. 
I struggle to believe that any vet would have OK'd the mare to foal, or that the original vet could have got his findings *so* wrong, but like anything, it is entirely possible, and as I've said to DD if she is following the advice of her vet, then best of luck to her. 
Just having a look at her BD results now, she's a talented little mare, hopefully she'll throw a lovely foal. As I've already said DD, all the best with her. Just because I dont think you ought to be putting her in foal doesn't mean that I don't plan to ogle the pictures of her or the foal when I see them 

Click to expand...

KS is a term thrown about covering an issue that be either very mild and easily fixable or apsolutly catastrophic horses often show symptoms secondary to the hock issue DD's mare had its very likely that now the mare is sound the back will resolve itself .
Although I would be very careful that the mare does not get too fat and if she where mine I would lightly long rien and lunge her if the vet was happy with it to keep her muscles up until the pregnancy made me need to stop.


----------



## Delicious_D (26 March 2013)

Ladylala I apologise in advance for the possibility of your time spent looking at them all . she is a talented mare and I believe the issues were caused by being backed too young, draw reins and perhaps being led into making decisions by the wrong people. 

I jut worry about those ears being hereditary


----------



## nic85 (26 March 2013)

I viewed a few babies when I was looking for my weanling that I would say were bred indiscriminately.

Yard 1.

Stallion, TB, injured young so not ridden (was supposed to race I believe) lived in a stable was brought out for nookie basically. 

Mares, a field full of varying height and colours ( mostly Gypsy type mares with the oddwelsh cob X) Long feet, tangled manes and tails and just nothing of any 'class' so to speak 

Foals, Coloured cobs x tb....all a bit 'Meh' there was one that had her dads head and was quite pretty but she wasnt ever going to make the height advertised.

I didnt buy from that yard. I would define that yard as breeding indiscriminately

Yard 2.

Lady had an ex Point to Point mare, she had been with them for years. She was origianly bought for daughter to event but daughter lost interest so she was kept and given a job. So she had foals, possibly one a year/one every other. They have all sold and I am still in contact with my Mares breeder via Facebook and email. 
I will say I got my Mare for Peanuts as she was supposed to be coloured (as in she was by a coloured stallion out of a bay mare) 

I suppose this could be seen as indiscriminately breeding, but the mare is well looked after, the stallions are chosen pretty well and all her youngstock sells. 

I had always said I would love to breed from my Mare when shes a bit older. But as she is approaching 4 years old and after owning her for 3.5 years of her life Im far too attached to put her at risk.


----------



## Delicious_D (26 March 2013)

Dee's being lunged and long reined to keep her ticking over.  KS is indeed the 'in' word for a blanket term. I agree. Before I rider again I am going to invest in a lighter saddle, I'm losing weight and I'll do it slowly on my terms.


----------



## Lady La La (26 March 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			KS is a term thrown about covering an issue that be either very mild and easily fixable or apsolutly catastrophic horses often show symptoms secondary to the hock issue DD's mare had its very likely that now the mare is sound the back will resolve itself .
Although I would be very careful that the mare does not get too fat and if she where mine I would lightly long rien and lunge her if the vet was happy with it to keep her muscles up until the pregnancy made me need to stop.
		
Click to expand...

I presume you've seen the vets report then? Also, how do you plan to prevent a heavily in foal mare from getting 'too fat' ? I assume that when you say 'too fat' this is because you are worrying about weight ... my exact reasons for expressing the concern over putting this particular mare in foal. You cannot prevent weight gain and excess strain to the joints, spine, pelvis etc, when you put a mare in foal. I know this, due to being heavily in foal myself


----------



## Goldenstar (26 March 2013)

RealityCheck said:



			I am one of the best breeders in my country, for my preferred sport. That isn't an arrogant comment, it's a fact. But this will be my last crop for at least five years, probably forever.

Despite knowing I could sell more foals, I don't feel it is responsible when there is such a surplus, and in economic times when you never know where a foal will end up if it ends up sold on.

I know my horses are classy, but bred to have a temperament suitable for less confident riders and handlers, because I feel that makes them easier to place in homes. If temperament was viewed as being as essential in breeding sports horses in the UK, as it is for me maybe there would be fewer issues? 
P
As an aside, it honestly irritates me so much when someone says they are breeding and quality doesn't matter because it's a foal for them. You have no idea what's just around the corner - I have mares and a stallion I said I'd never sell, but my health problems mean I have to.
		
Click to expand...

I am not saying quality does not matter ,  DD's mare is very classy .
Mine where a Irish mare who was intermediate at six but an accident on the yard 
 stopped her ridden career and fantastic hunter mare lovely conformation who would have evented and a advanced mare who had fantasic limbs And was brave tough and very sound.
The quality did matter to me but I bred them for us to use the ones who went wrong I PTS the ones two I just could not find a job for I did sell on but people persistently say that people like me contribute to over breeding I simply don't believe I did.
If you read my past posts on this I did say that being prepared to cull is something you have to be prepared to do.


----------



## littlemisslauren (26 March 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			I am not saying quality does not matter ,  DD's mare is very classy .

.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting statement. Do you think 'class' equates to quality in a horse?

In my mind a quality animal is a high achieving, completely sound, conformationaly correct horse, preferably with a desirable temperment. 'Class' has very litle to do with it, soundness does.


----------



## Goldenstar (26 March 2013)

Lady La La said:



			I presume you've seen the vets report then? Also, how do you plan to prevent a heavily in foal mare from getting 'too fat' ? I assume that when you say 'too fat' this is because you are worrying about weight ... my exact reasons for expressing the concern over putting this particular mare in foal. You cannot prevent weight gain and excess strain to the joints, spine, pelvis etc, when you put a mare in foal. I know this, due to being heavily in foal myself 

Click to expand...

No I have not seen the vets report and I assume you have not too , but I take DD word that her vet has advised her it's ok at face value.
But I know a bit about all this because BF is a vet who does a lot of stud work and we shared mares at one time  I was always very carefull with all the mares wieght you can't stop the wieght of the foal but you can control the fat they gain by managing diet too many people let mares in foal over eat .


----------



## Orls (26 March 2013)

Don't want to cause offence but my opinion of this is someone who breeds their mare because she can't do anything else. Not because she's achieved something and has a good bloodline and the breeder wishes to pass this talent and good breeding on, but because she's aged, or injured or the opportunity arises. There's nothing wrong with breeding from a talented, well bred mare who has become injured and unrideable provided she's done something beforehand and has something worthwhile and measurable to pass on to her offspring. The same stands for the stallion. 

An example of this is a girl I know who wants to breed from her mare which has been diagnosed with arthritis at a young age. This mare has done nothing of note and while she has reasonably good breeding it's nothing brilliant, and to top it all off she's sour, aggressive and bad tempered so now not only has she got a risk of passing her genetic arthritis to her foal but also her poor temperament. To me this is irresponsible breeding.


----------



## Shysmum (26 March 2013)

Quite simply, what is going on in Bishop Aukland and Darlington areas - thousands of 13hh black and white cobs. Every field, every scrap of waste land, old slag heaps, they are they. Industrial estates, tethered in parks, they are there. 

I cannot believe the council has not cracked down on it - it is quite awful to see.


----------



## Lady La La (26 March 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			No I have not seen the vets report and I assume you have not too , but I take DD word that her vet has advised her it's ok at face value.
But I know a bit about all this because BF is a vet who does a lot of stud work and we shared mares at one time  I was always very carefull with all the mares wieght you can't stop the wieght of the foal but you can control the fat they gain by managing diet too many people let mares in foal over eat .
		
Click to expand...

I have seen it, yes. That's the whole point to my comments on this thread 
I just find your comment strange, since you have brought up the need to control the mares weight you are obviously aware of the possible damage excess weight can cause, especially to a horse with the above issues


----------



## Goldenstar (26 March 2013)

littlemisslauren said:



			Interesting statement. Do you think 'class' equates to quality in a horse?

In my mind a quality animal is a high achieving, completely sound, conformationaly correct horse, preferably with a desirable temperment. 'Class' has very litle to do with it, soundness does.
		
Click to expand...

Thats a fair point but DD is breeding this foal for herself I bred different types for what we do I would not have used  warmblood mares as I prefer to buy that sort I bred hunter / event types useful to us.
I don't think high achieveing is necessarily a prerequisite for a hobby brood mare type soundness and temperament ( particularily that ) and conformation are .if you are breeding an all rounder use a good alrounder mare if you a breeding a top level showjumper use a top level proven mare .
What I am trying to say is often people breeding all rounders are critised by people trying to breed top level horses and it seems to be an attiude that we should not be breeding our purpose bred horses so we can buy their not good enough top level ones to be our all rounders.
DD's choice is hers to make taking into account the advise from her vets her finances and the facilities she has aviable to her.


----------



## neep (26 March 2013)

I bred my own 7 years ago, I really liked the mare graded hann, and I used a son of heartbreaker who I love and he is graded. I did all my research and was expecting a 17h with a fair amount of bone and potential superstar status. I actually go a wonky, cub footed tb x Arab look alike who was diagnosed with navicular before he was 3. Oh and he matured to 15h2!!! I was gutted but I bred him and even if he didn't have the navicular I would never sell him on as I bred him for me. Luckily I have land and he is out with my retired guys but I will never, ever breed again as even with all the research in the world you can never be sure what you will end up with


----------



## Goldenstar (26 March 2013)

Shysmum said:



			Quite simply, what is going on in Bishop Aukland and Darlington areas - thousands of 13hh black and white cobs. Every field, every scrap of waste land, old slag heaps, they are they. Industrial estates, tethered in parks, they are there. 

I cannot believe the council has not cracked down on it - it is quite awful to see.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on I was once very involved with these sorts of horses and it's madness what goes on , some days I thought my head would explode.


----------



## littlemisslauren (26 March 2013)

Shysmum said:



			Quite simply, what is going on in Bishop Aukland and Darlington areas - thousands of 13hh black and white cobs. Every field, every scrap of waste land, old slag heaps, they are they. Industrial estates, tethered in parks, they are there. 

I cannot believe the council has not cracked down on it - it is quite awful to see.
		
Click to expand...

I am in Durham so unfortunately know exactly the type you are describing.


----------



## Goldenstar (26 March 2013)

neep said:



			I bred my own 7 years ago, I really liked the mare graded hann, and I used a son of heartbreaker who I love and he is graded. I did all my research and was expecting a 17h with a fair amount of bone and potential superstar status. I actually go a wonky, cub footed tb x Arab look alike who was diagnosed with navicular before he was 3. Oh and he matured to 15h2!!! I was gutted but I bred him and even if he didn't have the navicular I would never sell him on as I bred him for me. Luckily I have land and he is out with my retired guys but I will never, ever breed again as even with all the research in the world you can never be sure what you will end up with
		
Click to expand...

That's what you have to understand and embrace if you breed for your self I put my wrong one whose temperament was awful to sleep and never bred from that mare again.


----------



## Goldenstar (26 March 2013)

Lady La La said:



			I have seen it, yes. That's the whole point to my comments on this thread 
I just find your comment strange, since you have brought up the need to control the mares weight you are obviously aware of the possible damage excess weight can cause, especially to a horse with the above issues 

Click to expand...

I have not seen the report as I said and take at face value that the vet is happy.
I have a thing about fat horses that's why I brought it up you will see it in many of my posts I am good at horse diets , less good at my own sadly.


----------



## Spring Feather (26 March 2013)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			Spring Feather, American living in Ireland here. Everything you said is obviously correct. However, what freaks people out here is the abandoned horses and the surplus. Which we have back home too but not really in the sport horse sector.
		
Click to expand...

Oh I totally agree.  We have more than our fair share of 'adandoned' horses who end up at the auction houses with many being shipped for meat too; significantly more than in Ireland or UK.  I was more trying to clarify the sport horse market I'm in, and the types of horses that are bred by people like me really are quite easy rides for most people so if they don't end up doing much competition wise they are still in demand for riding club type activities and being happy hackers.  A huge amount of the horses who end up in auctions or go for meat here (as you know) are often very well bred AQHAs and similar breeds.  Even more are OTTBs and standardbreds.  I know breeders who breed different type of horses for a different market who also seem to do very well and are just as responsible when it comes to trying to safeguard their stock.  Although I do know some big breeders, the majority of the breeders I know are small scale like me and if we don't sell all of our weanlings at or before weaning time then it's not a particularly big deal, we just keep them for longer.  Oh and I cannot agree with you enough on the problems that some trainers, inexperienced owners can cause a young horse.  I've seen it so many times where the horse leaves the breeder, something goes wrong, breeder buys horse back, spends 6 months trying to just get the horse back to where it was prior to sale, and then another 6 months catching up on what it's missed.



Wagtail said:



			I think it is perfectly reasonable to breed from a much loved mare if you intend to give the foal a home for life, even if that mare is unproven competitively, and has less than perfect conformation. However, IMO it is not acceptable to breed from such a mare with the intention of selling the foal.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I agree with this Wagtail. I think everyone who breeds a horse should breed a foal with the mindset it will be sold.  It may never be sold but the likelihood of that is quite slim overall because most are at some point.  So if the mare does have less than great conformation she shouldn't be bred from at all (imo).  I'm not talking a few dings here and there, I'm talking potentially major conformational/temperamental problems which could have some effect on the foal.


----------



## Spring Feather (26 March 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			What I am trying to say is often people breeding all rounders are critised by people trying to breed top level horses and it seems to be an attiude that we should not be breeding our purpose bred horses so we can buy their not good enough top level ones to be our all rounders.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely no criticism from me as although we have a name for the discipline I breed for, it is basically the same, these horses are great allrounders and suitable for most people to ride from professionals to relative novices.  People just tend to pay more for them here than over in the UK.

I know a few breeders in the UK who breed very nice horses, there's a couple at least come on this board.  Some have licensed/graded stallions, some don't but from what I've seen they are all breeding very nice stock and have made a name for themselves in their marketplace, so although registered/papered horses over here are desired by many, it's not of such importance in the UK I don't think.


----------



## Flame_ (26 March 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			What I am trying to say is often people breeding all rounders are critised by people trying to breed top level horses and it seems to be an attiude that we should not be breeding our purpose bred horses so we can buy their not good enough top level ones to be our all rounders.
		
Click to expand...

Really? Full credit to you for breeding more of what's really needed! My circles are swamped with lame reject WB types.


----------



## Spring Feather (26 March 2013)

Flame_ said:



			My circles are swamped with lame reject WB types. 

Click to expand...

Imported from the Continent or British bred?  I think there is a difference.


----------



## Flame_ (26 March 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Imported from the Continent or British bred?  I think there is a difference.
		
Click to expand...

I don't know tbh, both I think.


----------



## Spring Feather (26 March 2013)

Flame_ said:



			I don't know tbh, both I think.
		
Click to expand...

It would be interesting to find out why so many are breaking down at such young ages.  I have my own thoughts on that but I'd be really interested to see a large, longterm study done on this.  No money in performing such a study I guess so not going to happen unfortunately.


----------



## Cortez (26 March 2013)

I used to breed dressage horses in a fairly large, commercial way (15 - 20 foals a year, for 12 years). I gave up breeding 21 years ago, and I will NEVER breed another horse. Because: there are too many horses, too few good homes: it is MUCH cheaper to buy a nice three year old than to breed it: if you buy you get to choose the size/sex/colour/conformation, not wait with fingers crossed to see what pops out. I happen to be able to produce my own horses (the only reason I made a living at breeding, BTW), but a very large number of small/hobby breeders do not.

Scenario A: I love my mare SO much that I will breed an ickle foal to be just like her. 

Result: foal is NOTHING like either mare or stallion, I havn't the necessary skills to deal with it and it turns into a demented maniac.

Scenario B: I hate my crazy/lame/deformed mare, so I will breed a foal that will be stunning/talented/easy to deal with, and I won't have to face selling or putting down the mare.

Result: I get another crazy/lame/deformed creature that I havn't the neccessary skills to deal with.

Please: DO NOT BREED.


----------



## Crugeran Celt (26 March 2013)

Lady La La said:



			I presume you've seen the vets report then? Also, how do you plan to prevent a heavily in foal mare from getting 'too fat' ? 

My maiden mare did not get 'fat' at all and looked a perfectly healthy weight right to the end of the pregnancy. I stopped riding her very early on but walked her 4 or 5 miles every day. My only issue for breeding now is the health of the mare and foal, my miniature mare that I bought knowing she was pregnant had a still birth last April and I would never put another mare or myself through that again. I was just very grateful that the mare came through it and is now a very happy girl. When my filly was born 20 years ago I never gave a second thought to things going wrong but having gone through the loss last year it would be on my mind continuously. I do wonder how many foals are lost with these 'breeders' with fields full of cobby coloureds or mares that are lost along the way.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Spring Feather (26 March 2013)

It takes at least 6 years to make a 5 year old riding horse.  If all the breeders who are breeding to a programme stopped breeding tomorrow, what would we be left with in 6 years time?  Teenage horses and coloured cobs?  And then another 6 years for the breeders to get back up to having 5 year old riding horses, what would be available in the interim of these 12 years?


----------



## TheoryX1 (26 March 2013)

Wagtail said:



			I think it is perfectly reasonable to breed from a much loved mare if you intend to give the foal a home for life, even if that mare is unproven competitively, and has less than perfect conformation. However, IMO it is not acceptable to breed from such a mare with the intention of selling the foal.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree with this statement.  We had a woman on our livery yard who had the mare she bitch from hell, it kicked, it had bitten every one of us, it was inconsistent (it had done BE intros badly) and it was one vile piece of work, it had a pretty face, but her neck was on upside down, she dished and had a lot of problems conformation wise, but she loved her terribly.  Her job took her away a lot and she decided it was better to turn here away and make some money from breeding her as well.  

Our YO tried to persuade her otherwise and told her she had to leave if the mare had a foal, and this woman spent ages looking for a nice stallion to breed with her mare, who was a full TB.Thank god she came to her senses and sold the mare, as I dread to think what would have happened as that was one nasty mare.

To be fair we did consider breeding Bonnie if she had not come sound from her injuriy last year, and if we had gone that route, her foal would have been related to Dee's foal, (I know they will be via the Samber line anyway), as was really impressed with Dee's potential husband, they were really helpful and the stallion is a gorgous boy.  However, we have now decided to do it when her eventing days are over, or when I can afford to do it via embryo transfer.  Bonnie is a lovely well bred, graded mare, with a fantastic temperament, but if we do, we will keep the baby ourselves for Mini TX to ride.


----------



## Goldenstar (26 March 2013)

Cortez said:



			I used to breed dressage horses in a fairly large, commercial way (15 - 20 foals a year, for 12 years). I gave up breeding 21 years ago, and I will NEVER breed another horse. Because: there are too many horses, too few good homes: it is MUCH cheaper to buy a nice three year old than to breed it: if you buy you get to choose the size/sex/colour/conformation, not wait with fingers crossed to see what pops out. I happen to be able to produce my own horses (the only reason I made a living at breeding, BTW), but a very large number of small/hobby breeders do not.

Scenario A: I love my mare SO much that I will breed an ickle foal to be just like her. 

Result: foal is NOTHING like either mare or stallion, I havn't the necessary skills to deal with it and it turns into a demented maniac.

Scenario B: I hate my crazy/lame/deformed mare, so I will breed a foal that will be stunning/talented/easy to deal with, and I won't have to face selling or putting down the mare.

Result: I get another crazy/lame/deformed creature that I havn't the neccessary skills to deal with.

Please: DO NOT BREED.
		
Click to expand...

Or Scenario C bred from nice mare good temperament no glaring awful faults you accept what you get sent be brave enough to cull any disasters and then sell the odd one that does not suit into suitable jobs the rest live out there working lives with you and are PTS at home when the time comes in my book they where lucky lucky horses they died yards from where they were born.
The two I sold where not rejects they where half sisters and very nice horses if they had been unsuitable because of soundness issues I would not have parted with them.
The sort of breeding I did was not indescrimanate .
I think ATM if I where younger I would buy a really top class old fashioned type of ID mare if I wanted to bring on  and sell as my ID I could sell anytime there  always seems to be people desparate for his type likewise my clydesdale / welsh D I know several people who would love him if he was aviable , one asks me every time she sees me.
But it's no good just breeding you have to be able to make them into good well trained happy all rounders or it just wont work young horse work is not for everyone .


----------



## Wagtail (26 March 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			I'm not sure I agree with this Wagtail. I think everyone who breeds a horse should breed a foal with the mindset it will be sold.  It may never be sold but the likelihood of that is quite slim overall because most are at some point.  So if the mare does have less than great conformation she shouldn't be bred from at all (imo).  I'm not talking a few dings here and there, I'm talking potentially major conformational/temperamental problems which could have some effect on the foal.
		
Click to expand...

When I mean less than perfect conformation, I mean something like my mare here:







I certainly don't think ANY horse with a less than amiable temperament should be bred from.

I decided not to breed from my mare though as when I was debating it, she was already sixteen and I didn't want to risk her. But I would have been breeding to keep the foal for myself.


----------



## Spring Feather (26 March 2013)

Wagtail said:



			When I mean less than perfect conformation, I mean something like my mare here:







I certainly don't think ANY horse with a less than amiable temperament should be bred from.

I decided not to breed from my mare though as when I was debating it, she was already sixteen and I didn't want to risk her. But I would have been breeding to keep the foal for myself.
		
Click to expand...

Okay yes we're on the same page then   She's nice.  Sometimes it's difficult to gauge what posters mean when they say they have nice mares but who aren't totally conformationally correct.  I've seen some right doozie mares being bred from in my time on here who I would never dream of even considering breeding from, but their owners do because they think they are nice.  And I've also seen plenty who have bred to keep and then further down the line, life happens and the youngster is sold.  So I do still believe that when people breed their mare they should ALWAYS consider that th offspring may be sold one day and bear that in mind.


----------



## Equilibrium Ireland (26 March 2013)

I'm not breeding now nor do I have plans anytime soon. Because I do think about the fact I'm bringing a living breathing creature into the world. One that requires people to look after from birth til death. 

I mentioned in an earlier post what I've done with one who isn't a extremely nice model. She's not of exceptional talent either. Yet when people see Heidi they always remark what a nice mare. When I say not talented I don't mean trips over her own feet. Just not a 1.20 or 1.30 jumper. Very average. I adore her and she has many good qualities except you don't breed these types. They are to be enjoyed. She would be a cull. 

And I agree with Spring Feather. Not breeding nice horses won't make change what else will be available and people will go elsewhere to get it. 

Terri


----------



## Delicious_D (26 March 2013)

Agrre terri....whilst we might make the conscienous decision not to breed or only breed from good horses...joe bloggs down the road will probably still breed.


----------



## Goldenstar (26 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			Agrre terri....whilst we might make the conscienous decision not to breed or only breed from good horses...joe bloggs down the road will probably still breed.
		
Click to expand...

Don't buy joe bloggs horses ever that's part of the answer.


----------



## tallyho! (26 March 2013)

To me, it means higher tax bills for me to pay for people to live in free houses.


----------



## Spring Feather (26 March 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			Don't buy joe bloggs horses ever that's part of the answer.
		
Click to expand...

*We* don't!  It's the others who do lol!


----------



## Goldenstar (26 March 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			*We* don't!  It's the others who do lol!
		
Click to expand...

Sorry I was thinking aloud not offering advice.


----------



## Goldenstar (26 March 2013)

tallyho! said:



			To me, it means higher tax bills for me to pay for people to live in free houses.
		
Click to expand...

I apsolutly love this you aren't my OH by any chance are you tallyho


----------



## tallyho! (26 March 2013)

Tom, is that you??


----------



## Goldenstar (26 March 2013)

No then,  thank god for that I would be in trouble I am supposed to be " busy".


----------



## JFTDWS (26 March 2013)

Indiscriminate breeding - breeding without due care and attention to the conformation, soundness, use and temperament of the parents.

Not the only way for breeding to be bad or unnecessary, of course - breeding for a nonexistent market, without the funds to do it properly, for profit alone, or on the basis of faulty logic (my horse is an awesome sports horse and therefore should pass on his genes, even though he's a quirky little **** to ride and his offspring will probably kill anyone he encounters - but I love him so I can't see that) is all equally flawed.


----------



## Slave2Magic (26 March 2013)

When I decided that I wanted a youngster my first thought was temperament and second conformation. I had no intention of breeding from my own mare. She is a well bred arabian but would I breed from her? No. I knew what job I wanted my youngster to do and chose accordingly. He is growing into a lovely young man. Not a world beater but that was never my aim. Good bone and a level head will more than handle my mid life asperations.


----------



## BigBuck's (26 March 2013)

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if I'm repeating anything but for me, indiscriminate breeding boils down to either of two things:

1. breeding from an unsuitable mare with conformation and/or temperament issues which compromise her physical or mental soundness, who hasn't stood up to a reasonable level of work and is ultimately only being bred from because she's not good enough or capable enough to do anything else and has a uterus.  Doubly so when the requirements for the foal are to be twice the height of the mare, a completely different type and with 20x more talent in a particular sphere.

2. any mating where the breeder hasn't carefully considered the strengths and weaknesses of each individual mare and chosen, with due regard for the intended job of the foal, the most appropriate stallion to compliment those strengths and compensate (so far as possible) for the weaknesses and who hasn't carried out all recommended health checks as part of the process.


----------



## mandwhy (26 March 2013)

Breeding without a market for the foals to go into, I would say this applies more to failed sport horses and an excess of racehorses than to purpose bred all rounders, but then there will always be some flash mug who wants a horse with competition lines that they can barely get out of the stable without being flattened, possibly to get 'sold from field' a year or so on. There will also (and more sensibly) always be a market for nice riding club allrounders of varying abilities that can be ridden and handled by a novice, and be kept or sold on for moderate amounts of money between respectable homes. 

A blanket ban is completely unrealistic, of course there will be people in 5 years looking to buy young horses, its the low low end 'breeders' on dragon driving that need to be stopped, and they're the ones that won't be touched by trying to make breeding more costly or difficult, because they'll say it happened naturally.


----------



## Luci07 (26 March 2013)

When you breed, even for yourself, your objective should be a saleable horse. You never know what life is going to throw at you. Someone breeding from unproven stock, stock with poor confirmation or simply to give the mare a job is breeding indiscriminately. I have a good friend who has a really sweet ISH mare, only 6. Mare is a really sweet horse but has sadly had lameness issues, unresolved despite all vets efforts, scans and a year off in a field. On the basis that a, this mare has no breeding b, no competition record c, ok confirmation she will now have a new job as a surrogate mare. Vet now believes the lameness was due to an injury before my friend had her not hereditary. In times gone by, this mare would have been a good candidate for someone to breed a "sweet" foal out of.

I have another friend, who does breed quality sports horses. However, having seen the horrible and heartbreaking downside she has had to deal with, I now see past the lovely cute photos of foals out in the fields as having a view into her world has allowed me to see how easily and quickly it can wrong. And is why, despite having a mare who easily ticked all the boxes as a possible broodie was never bred from.


----------



## Megibo (26 March 2013)

Not read all the replies. 
To me it's breeding just because you can! "oo I've got a mare lets have a baby from her from the cheapest stallion..." 
I plan to breed from ONE of mine in the future, but only because they're both well bred, both good temps etc AND whatever I breed I'll keep, if I go ahead with it. And the potential sire is a very, very good stallion. 


Did your swimmers ever turn up?!


----------



## Delicious_D (26 March 2013)

They did turn up  but bought a new batch - just in case 

heard back from the PO concerned - they had a new driver who failed to deliver half his round and was seen in the pub when he was supposed to be working!!! When i have some freetime i shall be chasing them!

These are all veyr interesting posts and interesting to see others perspectives... LOL'ed @ the tax comment


----------



## Spring Feather (26 March 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			They did turn up  but bought a new batch - just in case 

heard back from the PO concerned - they had a new driver who failed to deliver half his round and was seen in the pub when he was supposed to be working!!! When i have some freetime i shall be chasing them!

These are all veyr interesting posts and interesting to see others perspectives... LOL'ed @ the tax comment 

Click to expand...

  Goodness that is awful.

Have been waiting for an update all day!  What size follicle today?


----------



## Delicious_D (26 March 2013)

Spring Feather said:



  Goodness that is awful.

Have been waiting for an update all day!  What size follicle today?
		
Click to expand...

I actually dont know, worked 12 hours today  left mum in charge.

Aparently dee has made two pony friends and they all get turned out together....that was my update today  I asked mum and she said 37ish but tbh i think she was just picking numbers out of thing air as quickly changed the subject  ill phone vets tomorrow


----------



## dressedkez (26 March 2013)

Some of the best bred horses have gone on to be expensive faliures - some of the worst matings have gone on to be world beaters.........
I have been guilty of breeding horses, because I was breeding myself at the time, so wanted the mare to be doing something as well.......of the two I bred the potential racehorse (TB to TB) was 14.3HH, and the potential pony racer (2nd mating) to an Arab turned out at 16.2.......


----------



## lme (27 March 2013)

I think of indiscriminate breeding as breeding something you don't have a use for & for which there is no market. 

I bred from my quirky but talented mare. Twice. She's not what a professional would consider an ideal brood mare as she is far too sharp and has a bit of a sense of humour, but I don't consider it to have been indiscriminate breeding. 

The first foal (a colt) went on to do very well at dressage (I sold him to my trainer). The second (a filly) is still with me at 10 years old and isn't going anywhere. She is very much her mother's daughter and has attitude in spades, but suits our family.  At some point, I'd like to breed from her, because I want her foal and can afford to breed rather than buy. I'm sure I could buy something better, but it wouldn't be the same.


----------



## Littlelegs (27 March 2013)

(((((((((breeding vibes))))))))


----------

