# Socialising a nervous dog?



## Laura2408 (27 December 2016)

Sorry second post in as many weeks but got great advice last time!

I have a young GSD bitch. She is pretty seriously reactive, lunges/growls and barks and tends to sort of snap her teeth together. Obviously she is muzzled when walked. If she is off lead she tends to run up to a person or dog, give it abuse and run back but she would most likely nip given the chance (she isn't off lead for this reason!)  
If someone tries to stroke her her default is to spin away and give a warning snap.
She has been like this since she was a puppy but some bad experiences caused the reactivity.
Just to add- she is a sweety at home and never been aggressive to any family.

I have walked her with friends dogs and she is always fine once she knows the dog is 'safe'. In fact I would say she is submissive and wary than outwardly aggressive. She has no idea how to play with strangers and just follows them instead but if they look at her she screams and runs away. On lead she is much more defensive.

She has been under a behaviourist since she was 6 months old following a desensitisation type programme with some success. Sometimes she is calm and others not! She does agility and can cope to an extent but a normal walk she is horrible (being honest!) and we tend to walk in rural areas.

Anyway she is restriting what we can do and where we can take her and I feel sorry for her being left out all the time. Things like holidays are impossible. The trainer has suggested attending some group walks with lots of off lead dogs and also taking her to busy places to try and get her used to being around more.

My concerns are if something scares her she would get worse or just shut down completely. For example a dog attack started many of the dog issues so if she was in a group of dogs and got in trouble I would literally never get her out of the house ever again. If something spooks her she is a wreck for hours after.
I am also not sure I can cope with the embarrassment of a lunging barking shepherd in public- if she was a chihuahua it may be less scary to people but sadly not!

What's best for her, to stay as we are avoiding things or try and push her a bit more?


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## gunnergundog (27 December 2016)

Have you had your dog since an 8 week old pup?  If not, when did you acquire her and what was her prior history?  How old is she now?  What are the qualifications of the behaviourist you have used?


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## Spiritedly (27 December 2016)

Your girl sounds very similar to mine! She was well socialised as a puppy but her fear/aggression increased as she got older. Last year she was diagnosed as having EPI which can have the side affect of causing fear/ aggression and since beginning treatment and having her diet changed she has improved tremendously. 
I have found that with mine if I keep her brain occupied then she tends to concentrate on me rather than other dogs and I  tell people not to approach her. I have got mine to the stage where she no longer lunges at other dogs whilst we are walking and she will sit quietly with me if there are other people or dogs near as long as they stay out of her comfort zone. I'm not a fan of flooding a dog with lots of something that frightens them as I don't believe it helps. Sometimes you just have to accept that your dog is not social and adjust the things you do accordingly.


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## Laura2408 (27 December 2016)

She was a rescue and given to me as a small puppy very poorly and dumped by the breeder who couldn't sell her. She was not from a good breeder.

She had a tough time as a puppy and was hurt a few times by other dogs being too boisterous which put her off (we fostered two puppies at once and the other would play roughly and hurt her) then when she was older she was attacked by two dogs requiring stitches and she's been terrified ever since. She's coming up to 2yo now. 
She lives with another dog currently. She also hates people and would think nothing of nipping someone entering the house or touching her, she goes in all guns blazing to get rid of the scary thing.

We tried to socialise her and thought we had done everything right but she was nervous from day1 and was the type of puppy hiding in the corner not the puppy playing etc. We did classes etc but she hid under the chair and didn't cope, maybe I tried to hard to push her to be friendly I'm not sure. 

We have used both a vet behaviourist and also an apdt one who work alongside each other. I am still in contact with both and the agility is ran by the latter of the two.


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## Clodagh (27 December 2016)

I couldn't possibly keep a dog like that. She cannot have any pleasure in life and it must be like walking with a grenade with the pin out.


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## Laura2408 (27 December 2016)

In all honesty I wasn't really looking for opinions on whether I should have her euthanised or not, it's something as a family we have discussed alongside our trainer,vet and ourselves and I am confident with the decision we have made. If it came to a point I wasn't happy to keep her then it would be an easy decision and one that's been well thought out. We keep her and everyone else safe and there is no chance of harm coming to anyone (but perhaps me although I would say this is very unlikely as I can do anything to her!)
Apologies if that comes across as rude and it's not meant too at all!

I was looking for an opinion as to whether it will set her back or not to try and take her on this group walk type activity or if it would be detrimental to her


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## Dobiegirl (27 December 2016)

When she starts kicking off on the lead at other dogs what do you do? what has your behaviourist suggested you do.


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## Clodagh (27 December 2016)

Laura2408 said:



			In all honesty I wasn't really looking for opinions on whether I should have her euthanised or not, it's something as a family we have discussed alongside our trainer,vet and ourselves and I am confident with the decision we have made. If it came to a point I wasn't happy to keep her then it would be an easy decision and one that's been well thought out. We keep her and everyone else safe and there is no chance of harm coming to anyone (but perhaps me although I would say this is very unlikely as I can do anything to her!)
Apologies if that comes across as rude and it's not meant too at all!

I was looking for an opinion as to whether it will set her back or not to try and take her on this group walk type activity or if it would be detrimental to her 

Click to expand...

No, fair enough, I see that. How would the other people on the group walk feel about their dogs possibly being attacked? Even with a muzzle on she could do a lot of damage.


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## SusieT (27 December 2016)

I would say with a sensible group who are prepared to work with her, preferably initially in a secure area with sensible dogs who wont play too hard or take offence to her it should do her the world of good.
Have you put her on calming supplements?


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## dollyanna (27 December 2016)

Speaking from my own experiences of a severely reactive and fearful dog (came to me at 2.5yrs) I would not encourage you to go on socialising walks/group walks without carefully introducing each dog first and making sure she is happy with each of them, and even then the focus of the walk would be her working with me, not trying to get her to go and play with the others when she doesn't have the skills to deal with that.
I would also do a lot of work to build her self confidence, I find clicker work really useful for this, shaping, trick training, really anything, just getting her to feel safe in trying new things out and being rewarded for it, it made such an amazing difference to my boy. 
I know very well what it is like to live with a dog such as yours, it isn't easy, and the first few years I tried so hard to socialise and train so we could go places and deal with things. We succeeded, we could compete at agility, we could walk through a town safely etc etc but it took such a toll on us both. He would literally need 2 weeks of staying more or less housebound after a weekend away at agility in order to let his adrenaline settle and be able to cope with everyday stuff again. It did improve, but I have to say it improved much more when we stopped doing agility, group walks, walking anywhere stressful, trying to socialise him. I just accepted the things he would rather not do, and we stopped doing them where possible. This meant that on the odd occasion we did need to wak through towns, walk with other dogs/attend a large show, cope with crowds etc he could do it much more easily, and recovered far quicker. These days there are few restrictions on what we do/where we go but I am strict on which people he mets that he doesn't know - if he doesn't need to meet them and I don't trust them to absolutely follow instructions (you get a feel for this, my biggest red flag is those who say "oh but dogs love me" - that's an instant lifetime ban!) then he doesn't meet them, end of. If he has to cope with a situation then he doesn't also meet people - we have done a lot of demos at huge dog shows which he loves to do but coping with the crowd around him getting to and from the ring is enough, he is happy, but meeting strangers as well is too much, so he doesn't. 
I guess I am trying to say there are probably going to be aspects you can't change, and she will possibly never be the dog you can take everywhere, but there are holiday places for these dogs, there are ways of managing them that limit the restrictions, and it is possible to have an incredible relationship with them, but accepting them for who they are is the first step. If you have worked with behaviourists and trainers who are half decent all this time then much of it is likely to be her personality - we can't all be social butterflies!
As for her being left out, my boy asks to be "put to bed" for a rest because being around too many people all day is just too tiring. He is much happier being given the chance to switch off by going in his crate and being left in peace. I feel he is missing out, but I know that if we tried to keep him with us all the time then he would get very tired, then stressy, then actively cranky. So he has time out, whenever he needs it, and he has periods almost every day where he is shut away to just sleep and be on his own. That is how he likes it - just the two of us, he will sleep near me, but more than me in the house and he needs to be given the space to sleep otherwise he doesn't switch off. She isn't being left out if she doesn't enjoy being there - just make sure she has enough mental and physical stimulation to keep her happy and able to rest.
And for those who say they can't live with a dog like that because they can't possibly be happy, you should meet my boy (but you won't, because he'd rather not). He is the epitomy of joy itself, the happiest boy in the world, he just needs the world to be how he understands it and not the human one others tried to inflict on him. That's just fine by me, because if he hadn't shown me what he has then my world would be infinitely less enjoyable.


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## Spiritedly (27 December 2016)

dollyanna said:



			And for those who say they can't live with a dog like that because they can't possibly be happy, you should meet my boy (but you won't, because he'd rather not). He is the epitomy of joy itself, the happiest boy in the world, he just needs the world to be how he understands it and not the human one others tried to inflict on him. That's just fine by me, because if he hadn't shown me what he has then my world would be infinitely less enjoyable.
		
Click to expand...

I couldn't have put this better! 

My eldest son is autistic and he always says that Tiki and him are the same....being around lots of people or strangers is their idea of hell...but being around the the immediate family allows them to shine and show how loving they are capable of being.

 I would certainly never even consider having her PTS on the basis that I have to make allowances and take precautions because of her personality.


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## planete (27 December 2016)

I completely agree with Dolyanna and Christmas Spirit.  A group walk where the other dogs are all running around would be extremely stressful.  You might find that a group walk where all the dogs are to be kept on lead and you can follow at the back would eventually improve your dog's confidence as she realises nobody is able to approach her and she can watch and perhaps relax after a bit.  Try and see whether any greyhound rescue groups organise walks near you and ask if they would mind you going along to see if it would help your girl.  I have personally found that keeping my reactive bitch as relaxed as possible is more conducive to progress than putting her in stressful situations.

It might also be worth having a session with a behaviourist with a different approach to your current one.  I have used IMDT behaviourists for this kind of problem with success.  The desensitisation protocol they use is one of the best in my experience.


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## Laura2408 (28 December 2016)

Hi all, thanks everyone for your replies!

It's hard to describe really. At home she is the perfect dog. She loves everyone and is really gentle and affectionate. She plays with our other dog (when he isn't grumpy!) and once she knows someone she is over the moon to see them every single time. She loves her walks as long as she isn't pestered, by that I mean by off lead dogs or people trying to stroke her/speak to us. She will bark as a warning if she sees someone that may offend her but she isn't trying to attack them, just put on a big scary show I think!
She still isn't okay with strangers to the house buit we just keep her separate in a quiet room. 

I really don't think she would attack another dog, whenever she's been off lead before she's hung back and sussed them out. She generally barks a lot and then tries to avoid everyone really but if someone scares her she will run up and bark at them and it is intimidating hence why she isn't off lead. I muzzle her as if a strange dog runs up to her and she panics I am scared she would bite trying to get rid of it!

So far we have been treating her for looking at the person/dog and looking back. Mostly I ask her to sit as if she's walking she tries to trip me up while reacting if she does and then I treat for being calm and move on. I've spent a long time trying to build it up but she's stalled in the last few months and hasn't got to the point where I can be sure she won't react.

The group is a breed walk, from photos there are lots of muzzled dogs and I'm concerned about her going up and barking and getting herself in trouble or if it's just going to push her too far and set her back. None of them are on lead so if one approaches us she will kick off if she is on lead too. Im not sure how they would feel if she attacked them, I would have to speak to them all properly first and explain the situation. As I say she hasn't attacked before and is terrified more than aggressive but I couldn't say 100% if she's pushed that there wouldn't be a fight.


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## Teaselmeg (28 December 2016)

The group walk sounds like a bad move, she needs to walk with one of two calm, non reactive dogs who she can trust, lots of positive experiences will help her, having another dog bark at her will not.  I am surprised your behaviourist recommended this approach for your dog.

Have you considered behavioural medication ( Prozac etc) ? It can help some dogs and Prozac is not the only option. Combined with DS/CC work it could give you the window you need to help her see the outside world as a nicer place.  You may need to find a veterinary behaviourist for this, your own vet will not have the experience to recommend the correct drug to try. 

I have a very scared/reactive dog and have been down the road your are on, including having my normal vet suggest he should be put down.  Your dog sounds very lucky to have you.


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## Laura2408 (28 December 2016)

Sorry, this wasn't reccomended by my behaviourist but a friend/ trainer with a reactive dog like mine. She said it helped hers and could help mine. My behaviourist recommended the agility though as it's ran by her and it's controlled/on lead and focuses on keeping her calm inbeteeen everyone's turns.

We have been using a vet behaviourist also since she was 6 months old (after the first and only incident when I didn't realise how bad she was and let someone stroke her!) and she was originally given a calming supplement. It didn't really make any difference if I'm honest but I would be willing to try it again.

I will speak to her again about stronger drugs. There was some discussion earlier as she has some health issues which makes medication risky and we were trying to avoid that if possible. Also due to the fact her problems are from birth due to bad breeding she isn't insured and the costs of her meds plus training are racking up (we have paid for 2 behaviourist sessions every month for around a year!) and I'm not sure I can afford to add more meds in!

I have thought about having her PTS many times but she isn't the dog most people see around us which is why it's so difficult. 

I don't think I will attend the walk but do some one to one instead


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## gunnergundog (28 December 2016)

I understand your concern about racking up more bills with medication, but a course of something like Clomicalm, Xanax or Amitriptyline may put her in a better place mentally such that she is  more receptive to your training and generally less fearful .  

I think it's a wise move to avoid the group walk.


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## twiggy2 (28 December 2016)

In all honesty I would change trainers/ behaviourists, sometimes a new set of eyes and a slightly different approach can help and you don't sound like you are making any headway and that you have not for a while.
Look into IMDT trainers on your area or go straight to the top and contact Steve Man, he has facilities to work with fear reactive dogs safely, he also has dogs he can use to work your dog with.
Taking your dog out into a group of unknown dogs all off lead is not going to help her relax in the presence of other dogs in fact it is likely make the situation far worse.
She is trying really hard to communicate with the world when she feels unsafe and it sounds like the world just keeps pushing- what other option is she left with than to defend herself?
If she is reacting then she is too aroused by something ( too close maybe) she is fearful of and that was she is being pushed too far. You need to start at a distance she is aware of another dog or stranger but not close enough that it takes over, she needs stuff to make her feel good when she is aware but still able to refocus on food or a toy then you move away, her tolerance distance can increase and decrease on a momentary basis depending on other factors ( always work within her comfort level).
What do you feed her/ how much exercise does she Gerald what do you do to stimulate her manually?
Many dogs need to be managed and will not ever interact well will the wider world and if you are happy to do that whilst being able to supply the dog with a good life then you just need to get to the point she can cope with people and dogs being around even she can tolerate being approached. Personally I would always muzzle an unpredictable dog of they are conditioned to the muzzle being a positive thing then it is just accepted and people are more likely to give her space, that does not mean I would put a dig in situations that provoke a reaction just that if a toddler (for example) runs past too close and you are caught by surprise the damage is limited.
Pm me if you want more advice I am happy to help.
Edited to add..
Please don't use heavy sedatives it has (fairly recently) been proven that they do not stop an animals fear just it's ability to react to the fear, therefore in reality the animal is even more terrified as it does not known why it cannot react when it's instinct tells it to-it just can't.


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## Laura2408 (28 December 2016)

I feed her skinners duck and rice and she is walked roughly an hour a day. I struggle to do more as she makes walks really difficult and i need to wait for someone to watch my baby as I can't cope with her and a baby at once incase something happens. I try to do different things but we generally stick to her safe walk which is along an open bridlepath that I can see for miles on. Downside to this is that it's hard to get enough space if someone's approaching and I often end up pulling her up embankments making room. Sometimes she is triggered and sometimes not depending on what's coming. The other reason I go here is that dogs must be on lead so I'm safe from the friendly dog brigade! 

She is really high drive and high energy. She starts screaming (literally!) the moments the lead comes out and she barks in excitement most of the walk. She runs like a whippet given half the chance but opportunities to let her off are hard to come by. She always seems to have her nose somewhere it shouldnt be and is always looking for the next thing to do but I have no idea how to keep her busy that dosent involve her getting into some type of trouble. In fairness she is well behaved at home and generally sleeps her day away once the walk is over but she can be a pain when she's bored! She reacts badly to visitors though hence we don't generally get any! 

She was doing really well at one point but seems to have slipped back into old habits, most likely my fault but I am now struggling to get back on track with her as i find her so frustrating! For example today she passed 2 dogs with no reaction and then lost her marbles at a dog she sees all the time, it's unpredictable as to what she will dislike. She's always muzzled when outside as she can't be trusted. When she was doing well I had relaxed with her but we had an incident a few months back involving her slipping her lead and it's made me nervous again and it's turning into a vicious cycle. 

She can't be left without my other dog and won't leave him either so I can't walk them separately. She relies on him constantly and can't cope if he leaves her. She won't be crated away from him and I don't have room to crate them together. This may change soon as we are moving to a much bigger house with a designated dog room just for her when people come! 

I struggle to keep them busy during the day as she can be possessive over her things. For example if I was to leave them with treats or hide food she is frantic trying to get it before him and I'm worried about a scuffle.  She has 0 social skills and won't listen if he growls or tells her to back off, she just keeps on annoying him until she gets bored or I move her. Even basic training turns into barking and racing around trying to play. She wouldn't bite anyone just sort of yaps at them as she's grabbing whatever it is she wants. I would love to find a job for her but I don't know what. She seems to keep herself busy in the day mainly sleeping 

Can I ask what the difference is between ipdt and imdt is? Mark is very far from me but there are a few closer. Current trainer has been really good and positive but maybe I'm still doing something wrong! I've had GSD all my life so I'm not clueless but she is something else entirely! 

Thanks very much for your advice!


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## Amymay (28 December 2016)

I can't really add anything to the discussion as I don't have the experience.  But something that does stick out is the amount of exercise she gets,  which as well as physically may not be mentally enough for her?  I have a Bichon who has around 3 hours a day.  

Is there any evidence that more exercise helps with her mental state?


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## twiggy2 (28 December 2016)

IMDT is a structured taught course to train trainers, apdt is an assessment of a trainers training.
Can you put a staircase up and give each dig a stuffed Kong with one dog on each side of the gate? Once they have the idea of the Kongs then you can freeze them so they last longer.  Also interactive feeding occupies the dogs mind, dogs dont need to eat from a bowl so try throwing the food over the lawn for the dog to find or use a Kong wobbler or similar. Or all feed has to be worked for.
Has your trainer started with teaching the dog a response to name.
Has your trainer ever just followed you on your regular walk to see where you are walking and how you an your dog deal with things you encounter?
As mentioned before if your dog is shouting she is being pushed too far and evertimevthat happens she is rehearsing a behaviour you want to lose and that is your vicious cycle.
Do you have anywhere safe you can hire to give her a really good blast?
I would increase her exercise and keep her more occupied at home, your trainer should also tackle the behaviour she is showing when the routine leading to a walk starts without tackling the little bits you won't make consistent progress. She is showing signs of stress at the thought of a walk by the sounds of it and that needs dealing with.


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## Laura2408 (29 December 2016)

Thanks all.

She does need more excersise! It's just hard to get her out when she makes it so hard every time. We have hired a field before but she just stood there as she won't chase a ball or play so I ended up walking around the edge for an hour with her which was a waste of money i thought.  I thought the barking to go out was excitement as she runs to the door and can't get out quick enough but she is stressed when out too. For example she lunges at other dog constantly because he's off lead and she isnt, but I can't just keep him on to suit her. She's frustrated I think but she won't walk alone and can't be trusted to be off! It would be easier if I could do some ball games or something but she is horrible and starts grabbing and biting at other dog and barking constantly so obviously stressed so that's out.
We don't have any toys out in the house unless supervised for this reason too.

She has a reasonable level of training. She knows her name. Recalls well when no distractions. She also knows sit, lie down, wait etc. She can sort of heel but when she's excited it goes out the window. She's very strong and difficult to hold when she's going off on one as I have another hand lost to other dog so she's walked on a dogmatic.

Trainer has accompanied us a few times and she's always well behaved which is frustrating as it's hard to see the behaviour but she tends to be better with a distraction. We have attended training classes and she's seen her in all her glory then though!

I will dig out the kongs, they have had them before but I stopped using them as I was sick of having to stop them stealing from eachother. We have a completely open plan house and can't shut anyone anywhere unless someone is in the garden and someone in the house but neither would be impressed by that! This is another reason we are moving as my house is not equipt for a dog that needs isolated from the rest of us! 

I need to go back to square one by the sounds of it, its just so draining as if I let something slip a tiny bit she goes back to as she was before straight away! She is proberbly the least fun dog I've ever owned poor thing!


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## Amymay (29 December 2016)

Was she happy in the rented field though - sniffing around etc?  It sounds like a great option.


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## twiggy2 (29 December 2016)

You need to show her how to get the benefit from the field, if you are not interested and giving her things to do why would she just run around in it, the chances are she wants to stay close to you because that is safer than running about.
Hire the field and take lots of food/ toys and not your other dog, the food must be really high value. Keep her on the lead and walk about feeding her constant treats, then start dropping them on the floor so she has to find them. Progress to a long line (at her pace this may take Weeks) and telling her to wait then gradually dropping the treats further and further from her, the idea is to work up to telling her to wait, going and dropping lots of treats and sending her out to find them- all off lead till you get to the point you tell her she can go and she does run round like a loon to find the treats and she enjoys the running.
Just to mention a dog showing the behaviour she is is not currently a happy dog and there isn't shame in admitting you cannot provide what a dog needs to make its existence a good one, I have taken a couple of dogs to be PTS for friends as the dogs were too much of a risk to rehome but to complex for the owners to deal with. The owners at the time were devastated but it is no more stressful for the dog than a vaccine and the friends and partners have all said that they did not realise till after how much stress the dogs bought into their lives.
Good luck


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## Laura2408 (29 December 2016)

Thank you to both of you. I will try the field again and have stuffed the kongs for today.

I know she is stressed a lot of the time and we really are trying hard with her. I have only told the bad half of the story and there are lots of times she is happy, playing and enjoying herself but I suppose the bad outshines the good when you write it all down.

She has made my life worse in a way (sounds awful saying that!) but she is also the most loyal and loving dog I have ever had. I have had her seen by 3 seperate people and they all think she's 'workable' but I'm certainly no dog whisperer and have made mistakes.

If it got to the point I thought I couldn't cope I wouldn't hesitate to PTS and wouldn't rehome her, it's just got to be the right time for me and I need to feel like I've given it everything which I don't currently


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## MurphysMinder (29 December 2016)

I have had GSDs all my life and would not take on a working line one as I do not feel I have the time that a dog with strong drive needs.  My 2 GSDs have a good walk each day and are also running loose in our fields several times a day,  plus training sessions etc,  but imo that would not be enough for a working line shepherd. Can you do some search or tracking exercises in your garden,  using her brain would help her I am sure.   Also,  I think you should insist she goes for walks etc without the other dog,  so you can really concentrate on her and her  issues.  You could also throw ball for her etc,  which again would help burn off some energy.
On your post about your other dog it was suggested you contact Cayla,  did you ever do this,  because I am sure she could help you with your GSD too


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## planete (29 December 2016)

Our IMDT trainer runs 1-2-1 socialisation sessions with stooge dogs which can be immensely helpful in teaching such dogs social skills.  From the map on the IMDT website there are several fully qualified members around your county.  It might be worth giving them a ring, even if it is just for a chat?

I use a long line attached to a harness on my reactive girl after training her (and myself!) in an enclosed field.  I wear gloves, use a padded line and have my hand through a loop so I cannot let go.  To be safe you need to stop the line going slack at any time by coiling and uncoiling it as needed.  Any slack will mean the dog can hit the end of the line at speed, damaging herself and you.  I have started doing 'man trailing' with my husband's help.  I am the 'hare' and follow a pre-arranged course, 15 mn. later my husband follows with the dog on a longline tracking me.  My dog does it naturally as  she is desperate to find me.  The course lasts 20mn at the moment.  We do it just to give the dog a purpose and it combines physical and mental exercise.  I would imagine a GSD would be a natural.  A dog with drive will usually ignore distractions and keep his focus on the search.  Scent work in the hired field id also a possibility but needs training.  there are some good books about on starting scent detection with a dog.

Just some ideas to give your girl some interesting things to do. It helps me cope if I concentrate on what we can do instead of all the problems.


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## Laura2408 (29 December 2016)

Yes I've actually had two nervous GSD both at once (or at similar sort of times) and they fed from each other hence he was rehomed to family and I concentrated on her plus old collie. I got them both around the same time from rescue as I work in the field and it was felt I could help with her medical issues and I had just lost my older 2 boys at the time and thought I could cope, obviously not. Since then circumstances have changed, horses were sold and i have less time so it was the right thing to do! I should never have taken them in the first place but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

My garden is way to small for any sort of entertainment until we move but I am going to explore the field option. I tried to take her out alone a few times but she turned herself inside out with stress and the behaviourist suggested we don't stress her out right now. I didn't contact anyone but the one trainer who was recommended by my vet so as not to confuse matters or get conflicting advice. 

Scent work sounds like a good idea I will look into!


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## dollyanna (29 December 2016)

Scentwork in the house and garden would also help to satisfy her brain and help lower her stress levels, and when she knows the game well you can use it outside on walks too to give her something else to focus on - it has kept mine happy on a number of occasions, he was searching for his gingercake and an offlead dog came bounding over from miles away. Because he stayed focussed and working it was much easier to chase the dog away. You don't need a lot of space either, there are other ways to make it challenging.
I would recommend Talking Dogs Scentwork as a starting point, there is an excellent book that is not expensive, as well as some good dvds if you work better that way. The best would be to take her to a course though, so you can get hands on help, and all of them are equipped for dog reactive dogs - they will clear the hall for you to work undistracted. If you are willing to travel a little way for a day's course then I would really really recommend the ones run by Morag Heirs and Clare Ross of Well Connected Canine - they are based in York but do some further afield, and are excellent behaviourists as well.


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## pippixox (29 December 2016)

You have already been given lots of advice. Just thought I would say my story....  I have a now 5 yo gsd who we got aged 2. At first it was not clear how unsocialised and reactive he was. I took him on a walk with previous owners and we met a group of small dogs. They said he was fine with dogs. He lived with a small poodle fine. But now looking back, he just froze with the little dogs but didn't socialise or threaten them. Bigger dogs are much worse for him. He was first on a farm and we were told he was bullied by the other dogs (also gsd) on lead he pulls towards other dogs but then wants to run away. If he can't he would then react with aggression.

What have we done..... Went to group classes and they were great at giving space and trainer was very understanding. Did practise scent to distract- like scattering food to help him ignore other dogs. But sometimes he is too wound up to focus on food. But mostly he improved as he recognised the dogs and it was mostly on lead- he can't cope with them running around.

He has met a few dogs that he is friends with and sees regularly. They are smaller than him and not threatening. 

Basically we have altered things around him. I tried for over a year to regularly walk him in busy areas and he has got better at coping, but still stressed him out. So mostly he is off lead in my horses field and barns, but other wise always on lead and if on pavement we literally cross the road to avoid other dogs as he needs lots of space. We do take him places but have to be aware of other dogs bad just keep enough distance. But his saving grace is everything else- he LOVES people and is very friendly to everyone. 

I do need to order him a yellow dog I need space jacket, as I now have a baby as well which he protects and also means I am not always as able to watch for other dogs.


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## pippixox (29 December 2016)

Also when we got him he did not play or understand fetch even! But with time he learned and loves fetch! We can play catch and fetch in the garden while my baby naps. Also I sometimes scatter all his kibble around the garden so it takes ages. Helps occupie when it is hard to fit in extra walks and uses his brain


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## CorvusCorax (29 December 2016)

Good advice already but if you're moving to a bigger place I would just say do scent work and agility and other sorts of training at your own place or in very small groups, manage the situation and accept that she doesn't have the genetic background or mental strength to deal with things that she finds stressful. From the sounds of it, it is just not there and nothing will put it there, so you have to help her. 
I've seen dogs like this be brought to groups I've been at in the hope that something will change, and my advice would be to take them home...I've seen far too many near misses. Not fair on dogs or humans.
If she's happy at home, within reason, I'd let her stay there and be happy. The world is probably just too big and scary for her to be able to process.


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## Laura2408 (29 December 2016)

Thanks all- I didn't want to turn this thread back into a help my dog is awful thread as I've already had one of those but I appreciate all the ideas and tips! 

Cc she's happy in her bubble with her toys and her brother. She likes a quiet walk with nobody interacting with her and she is calm at training as she knows nobody will approach her. Besides that she just can't cope! 

I used to take them to work with me but don't now as she's too stressed and it wasn't fair.

I know deep down she isn't fixable, improbable possibly but she won't be normal!


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## CorvusCorax (29 December 2016)

She's not awful at all, none of it is her fault. What we see as the 'ideal' life for a dog, is sometimes that dog's worst nightmare. You know her limits, personally I wouldn't push her past them right now.


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## Laura2408 (29 December 2016)

No she isn't horrible at all CC I am being harsh, she actually a sweetheart but she acts before she thinks and that's what gets her into trouble.

I am going for the relaxed approach over the next few weeks and see how we go. Managed to get her out for 1.5 hours today with no reactions (bar one poodle lady who wouldn't put the little devils on a lead!) 
She's also spent 2 hours trying to get some treats from a kong, small steps I think.

I've been researching the more excersise thing but it's proving difficult as there's no way I can really get her out more than I do. I am looking into a dog walker but she is seriously fear aggressive to visitors so anybody entering the house when I'm not there needs balls of steel to get through the door!  

Maybe she would be better off left alone at home than stressed by a stranger in the house even if it means less walks.


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## gunnergundog (29 December 2016)

Whilst the ideal would be to get the dog more exercise out in the big wide world, any physical exertion will help to produce the feel good factor via endorphins, so what about a treadmill at home?  Alternatively, taking the dog swimming?


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## Laura2408 (30 December 2016)

A treadmill could be an idea if I could ever get her near it, just a human one? 

Swimming is a no go as I wouldn't get her in the door of any of the hydro places and she wouldn't tolerate anyone touching her. I also wouldn't let her off lead to swim in ponds or at the beach as if someone appeared she'd be off!


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## Fellewell (31 December 2016)

When you give black coffee to a drunk you don't get a sober person, you get a wide-awake drunk. By the same token, if you give short bursts of high energy exercise to a neurotic dog, you don't get a calm dog, you get a super-fit fear-biter.
I am not of this opinion that these poorly bred dogs should be kept away from society, that is not what these dogs were bred for. Actually they were probably bred for stupid colours and half-arsed protection work. Doors get left open and you can't muzzle 24/7.
What she really needs is habituation and loads of it; methodical, structured and controlled with a conspicuous leader. I get that you took her on as a favour but I think you underestimated the time and effort involved and it has to come from you. I recently heard of a behaviourist being mauled because they were trying to prove they weren't a threat to the dog (GSD). You can't be passive, these poorly bred dogs don't have the temperament to take charge so YOU have to.
You're embarrassed by her lunging at people in public, how did she get to that stage without correction?
GSD's are the easiest dogs in the world to train. They are also the quickest to develop/exhibit neurotic behaviour when left to their own devices. Do you really have the time to devote to this? It's not just socialisation sadly.


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## twiggy2 (31 December 2016)

Fellewell said:



			When you give black coffee to a drunk you don't get a sober person, you get a wide-awake drunk. By the same token, if you give short bursts of high energy exercise to a neurotic dog, you don't get a calm dog, you get a super-fit fear-biter.
I am not of this opinion that these poorly bred dogs should be kept away from society, that is not what these dogs were bred for. Actually they were probably bred for stupid colours and half-arsed protection work. Doors get left open and you can't muzzle 24/7.
What she really needs is habituation and loads of it; methodical, structured and controlled with a conspicuous leader. I get that you took her on as a favour but I think you underestimated the time and effort involved and it has to come from you. I recently heard of a behaviourist being mauled because they were trying to prove they weren't a threat to the dog (GSD). You can't be passive, these poorly bred dogs don't have the temperament to take charge so YOU have to.
You're embarrassed by her lunging at people in public, how did she get to that stage without correction?
GSD's are the easiest dogs in the world to train. They are also the quickest to develop/exhibit neurotic behaviour when left to their own devices. Do you really have the time to devote to this? It's not just socialisation sadly.
		
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Nothing positive or helpful in this post, with regards to lunging comment- how the dog got there is irrelevant it's t this point. 
How would you deal with things?


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## Laura2408 (31 December 2016)

Believe me, I have corrected her in the past. We've tried everything but she's terrified. If you are too dominant she shuts down. She responds to calm quiet handling not any adverse methods.

She got there by being terrified of people, she learnt that barking made people back off and it's turned into a cycle as she thinks it works...and she would be right. I can't just force people to stand still and take her abuse though.

We have worked with her extensively but she isn't an easy dog,3 behaviourists have confirmed that. She's like a GSD on speed and I know GSD inside out, she's not got a GSD temperament at all. She isn't my first dog and I'm not one of those clueless idiots who buys a puppy from a backyard breeder as she looked fluffy. She was sick, I took her on and she will need lifelong management hence I can't rehome her.

My father is an old school trainer who has had shepherds all his life. He turned around an unruly one I fostered in days by being calm but assertive. He tried to handle this bitch though and although she did ask he asked (i.e. Didn't bark) she was visably stressed and uncomfortable, to me she's more likley to bite someone in this state than any other. I think an old school trainer may get her to behave but she would be a ticking time bomb as she will never be reformed. She could get out of the house and bite someone but the same could be said for any number of dogs really, if anything she is safer than someone deluded as we treat our home like Fort Knox!


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## CorvusCorax (1 January 2017)

It's really, really hard to train a dog that isn't clear in the head through stress. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it and the OP wouldn't be in the position she is in now.


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## dollyanna (1 January 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			It's really, really hard to train a dog that isn't clear in the head through stress. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it and the OP wouldn't be in the position she is in now.
		
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Absolutely, for many months I was convinced my boy couldn't smell or see very much as well as being deaf, he never responded to vibrations or all the things that you would expect him to. Looking at him now I find it hard to believe I ever thought that, he can recognise who is on the other side of the garden wall from smell (and tell me specifically), smells cats a mile off, and until recently when his sight really did start reducing you would never have known he was deaf in the house. Stress accounts for a huge amount and is vastly underrated.


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## planete (1 January 2017)

"It's really, really hard to train a dog that isn't clear in the head through stress. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it and the OP wouldn't be in the position she is in now."

This. To desensitise a dog it must be kept under threshold, once it is reacting it is incapable of taking anything in and learning.  My IMDT trainer took my reactive bitch through a systematic desensitisation programme tailored to her reactions.  He sometimes spent an hour getting her to relax when he moved a foot just one step to the side,  he built on this in tiny increments until he could walk, sit down, stand up and walk again without eliciting tension in the dog.  This bitch is now a confident and super friendly animal with anybody who is prepared to use dog friendly body language (people who are not willing to learn are not allowed near her).  She is wonderful with all my friends and family including my four year old grandson.  She watches me and if I am relaxed she is.  If I am not she reverts and will try to get at the person (she is muzzled and on lead anywhere public).

 She was scared but she is no shrinking violet and was also ready to attack first and ask questions later.  Flooding her or telling her off would have ramped up the aggression.  She can now be in a crowd of people or close to other on lead dogs with no problems.  She can also behave totally normally around new dogs once they have been introduced quietly.  It can be done, but very few behaviourists have practical knowledge of this kind of extreme and painstaking work.  She will never be a dog you can have a relaxed walk with but she comes with us on holidays, goes on on lead group walks and races and plays with her doggy friends.  She will now sit and stare at me automatically when a strange dog appears.

Please feel free to pm me OP.  I am in the south so my trainer is a long way from you but he knows a large number of people and might be able to recommend somebody near you.


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## Laura2408 (1 January 2017)

Planete-if your trainer could reccomend someone in the north east I would be very grateful!


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## planete (1 January 2017)

I will get in touch with him and let you know. xx


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## Dobiegirl (1 January 2017)

Laura I really think Cayla and her partner would help enormously and she does think outside the box, her wealth of knowledge is phenomenal and her experience of working with reactive dogs is exceptional.


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## MurphysMinder (1 January 2017)

Dobiegirl said:



			Laura I really think Cayla and her partner would help enormously and she does think outside the box, her wealth of knowledge is phenomenal and her experience of working with reactive dogs is exceptional.
		
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^^^   This


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## Alec Swan (1 January 2017)

Laura2408 said:



			Believe me, I have corrected her in the past. We've tried everything but she's terrified. If you are too dominant she shuts down. She responds to calm quiet handling not any adverse methods.

She got there by being terrified of people, she learnt that barking made people back off and it's turned into a cycle as she thinks it works...and she would be right. I can't just force people to stand still and take her abuse though.

..
		
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OP,  just a collection of random thoughts which may not be of any help,  I realise!;

I can't print up all the salient and interesting points which you've raised because this post would go on for ever.  It would be near impossible for any clear analyses to be given without seeing the dog AND you in an environment where she's likely to display her unwanted behaviour,  so just a few suggestions;

We can really only generalise when discussing the mental make-up of any living creature,  _'SO'_ Generally,  when dogs behave as yours,  it has little to do with past memories as most dogs are fairly forgiving of our 'mistakes'.  Mostly those dogs which seem unable to fit in and be as we would have them,  have the problem routed in their genetic make-up though this can easily be reinforced by our well intended reactions.  If we can master it,  the trick is to be one jump ahead and present a situation to the dog BEFORE it reacts to the perceived threat.  Easier said than done,  I realise!

Your previous comment that your dog reacts before she _'thinks'_ is I believe,  a mistake.  Dogs rarely think before they act,  and certainly in the case of those which are nervous,  _'reaction'_ is their only tool.

If you had say 5 other dogs living in the house,  then you and they would form a pack,  of sorts.  I understand that with our bright new-wave and modern thinking,  the pack principle is dismissed,  but it clearly works with hounds so would with those dogs,  even on a one-to-one basis.

In short,  you will be unlikely to make progress until you manage to establish the roll of pack leader,  which at the moment,  you aren't,  it seems.  I strongly suspect that you need a radicle re-think of your strategy.  With dogs such as yours,  violence simple doesn't work,  we know that,  but with authority stamped on your relationship with the dog,  setting boundaries,  you may well make progress.

Another point,  perhaps the most crucial when it comes to training any dog and especially one displaying the behaviour traits which yours does,  is _'consistancy'_.  Even to the point where being consistently wrong is to be preferred to inconsistency.

Teaching a dog that it has nothing to fear is best started from the outset,  but given that it may very well be the case that your dog started life with a diffident approach,  so it would seem that she believes from her experiences that she's been right all along.

I've rather rambled on,  but it's an interesting topic and having had one or two dogs such as yours through my hands,  I'm convinced that if you can reach the stage where you can engineer your authority,  so you may make progress.  Sadly though,  altering the mental make-up of a dog which has serious hang-ups is rarely totally successful because dogs learn to mistrust long before and far sooner than they learn to 'believe' us.  All so often,  dogs learn to trust us when they accept our authority.  I strongly suspect that you're trying to reason with a dog which simply doesn't understand your intentions.

Laura,  you've obviously given your situation considerable thought,  and that's to be applauded.  Sadly though,  without seeing you and your dog together,  clear and worthwhile advice would be difficult.  None the less,  I wish you well!

Alec.


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## Laura2408 (1 January 2017)

Thank you Alec, really interesting thoughts thank you.

It's hard to explain but she was a nervous wreck from day one. I have photos of her at 5 weeks old and she is cowering to the floor with her tail between her legs. The day she came home she hid under the sofa for weeks and this was her 'space' until she couldn't fit any more.
The first time she met another dog bar mine she yelped, screamed and planted herself to the floor. I took her to puppy classes but she hid under the chairs at the back and wouldn't speak to anyone. She had no interest in the other puppies or people, she's only ever wanted to be close to family or my other dog- anyone else she is indifferent too or is outwardly aggressive too. If another dog approaches her she will run and yelp as though she's been murdered but will turn and bite if she can't outrun it. It's not uncommon for her to express her anal glands as she's reacting which I believe is fear.

She's also very touch sensitive, she yelps in anticipation of me accidentally standing on her tail if I walk near her even though it's only happened a few times before. This is due to the amount of medical procedures she's undergone I think as she's used to people touching her and it hurting.

I agree with your point that I need to be assertive with her. It's a hard one as she's very well behaved at home. She does exactly as I ask when I ask, she lives with cats/dogs/small animals and a baby and has never so much as looked at anyone wrongly. She literally sleeps her day away and wants the odd stroke-nothing out of the ordinary. She is very responsive to me and knows as soon as I say no that I mean it, she has never challenged anyone in the family. She annoys the other dog but if he tells her off she accepts it and backs down straight away! 
I can touch her food and toys etc and she is totally fine with that, she waits to get in and out of the car and for her tea. I can also handle her anywhere without fuss. All in all she is a really well behaved and trained girl as long as she's in her happy state.

Bring a trigger in though and she's a different dog. Everything I say or do goes out of the window. Afterwards it's like she knows it was a mistake as she will often cower or shy away from me as if she is about to be told off (which I've never done!) 
If I have strangers to the home she listens when I tell her no but it's like she can't help herself but to react. If I was to stand over her or something like that she probably would shut up but I don't want to intimidate her when she's already frightened. 

I know this post may make no sense as it sounds like I'm talking about 2 seperate dogs. On one hand she is a lovely sweet happy girl and the other a nervous wreck. For example today we had a lovely 2 hour walk with some off lead time with some friends dogs and she spend the rest of the day snuggled up at my feet...she's not miserable 90% of the time but it's that last 10% when she sees a threat that's the problem!


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## LD&S (2 January 2017)

dollyanna said:



			Speaking from my own experiences of a severely reactive and fearful dog (came to me at 2.5yrs) I would not encourage you to go on socialising walks/group walks without carefully introducing each dog first and making sure she is happy with each of them, and even then the focus of the walk would be her working with me, not trying to get her to go and play with the others when she doesn't have the skills to deal with that.
I would also do a lot of work to build her self confidence, I find clicker work really useful for this, shaping, trick training, really anything, just getting her to feel safe in trying new things out and being rewarded for it, it made such an amazing difference to my boy. 
I know very well what it is like to live with a dog such as yours, it isn't easy, and the first few years I tried so hard to socialise and train so we could go places and deal with things. We succeeded, we could compete at agility, we could walk through a town safely etc etc but it took such a toll on us both. He would literally need 2 weeks of staying more or less housebound after a weekend away at agility in order to let his adrenaline settle and be able to cope with everyday stuff again. It did improve, but I have to say it improved much more when we stopped doing agility, group walks, walking anywhere stressful, trying to socialise him. I just accepted the things he would rather not do, and we stopped doing them where possible. This meant that on the odd occasion we did need to wak through towns, walk with other dogs/attend a large show, cope with crowds etc he could do it much more easily, and recovered far quicker. These days there are few restrictions on what we do/where we go but I am strict on which people he mets that he doesn't know - if he doesn't need to meet them and I don't trust them to absolutely follow instructions (you get a feel for this, my biggest red flag is those who say "oh but dogs love me" - that's an instant lifetime ban!) then he doesn't meet them, end of. If he has to cope with a situation then he doesn't also meet people - we have done a lot of demos at huge dog shows which he loves to do but coping with the crowd around him getting to and from the ring is enough, he is happy, but meeting strangers as well is too much, so he doesn't. 
I guess I am trying to say there are probably going to be aspects you can't change, and she will possibly never be the dog you can take everywhere, but there are holiday places for these dogs, there are ways of managing them that limit the restrictions, and it is possible to have an incredible relationship with them, but accepting them for who they are is the first step. If you have worked with behaviourists and trainers who are half decent all this time then much of it is likely to be her personality - we can't all be social butterflies!
As for her being left out, my boy asks to be "put to bed" for a rest because being around too many people all day is just too tiring. He is much happier being given the chance to switch off by going in his crate and being left in peace. I feel he is missing out, but I know that if we tried to keep him with us all the time then he would get very tired, then stressy, then actively cranky. So he has time out, whenever he needs it, and he has periods almost every day where he is shut away to just sleep and be on his own. That is how he likes it - just the two of us, he will sleep near me, but more than me in the house and he needs to be given the space to sleep otherwise he doesn't switch off. She isn't being left out if she doesn't enjoy being there - just make sure she has enough mental and physical stimulation to keep her happy and able to rest.
And for those who say they can't live with a dog like that because they can't possibly be happy, you should meet my boy (but you won't, because he'd rather not). He is the epitomy of joy itself, the happiest boy in the world, he just needs the world to be how he understands it and not the human one others tried to inflict on him. That's just fine by me, because if he hadn't shown me what he has then my world would be infinitely less enjoyable.
		
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I've just read your post quite slowly so hopefully I haven't missed anything but basically you only do with your dog what he can cope with, bliddy brilliant.
The older I get the more I realise animals are just like us, some people cope some don't and it's the same with dogs. 
I think I'm like your dog, once my stress levels go up they take ages to come down, if they're managed and don't get too bad I find it fairly easy to get back on an even keel. 
I'm not sure if your advice would be something OP could/would act on but it's refreshing to know there is a different approach.


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## Clodagh (2 January 2017)

LD&S said:



			I've just read your post quite slowly so hopefully I haven't missed anything but basically you only do with your dog what he can cope with, bliddy brilliant.
The older I get the more I realise animals are just like us, some people cope some don't and it's the same with dogs. 
I think I'm like your dog, once my stress levels go up they take ages to come down, if they're managed and don't get too bad I find it fairly easy to get back on an even keel. 
I'm not sure if your advice would be something OP could/would act on but it's refreshing to know there is a different approach.
		
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I am not disgreeing with this post, I know nothing about dogs like these hyper aggressive/reactive types but the trouble is does it not become a vicious circle? You can't exercise them as they can't leave the house so they get more uptight and stressed? Or am I putting my emotions and thoughts onto a dog? This is an interested question, not a having a go!


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## Moobli (2 January 2017)

I would encourage you to work on the things you can change, and accept the things you can&#8217;t.
The trick is learning to know the difference.

Some very wise words taken from an excellent article I recently read on the role of genetics in behaviour.  

Genetics play a huge role in the skills our dogs are born with as well as the temperament and personality they possess.  Dogs like yours Laura are just not genetically equipped to cope with many of the modern day pressures and stresses that dogs with stronger genetic material can stand.  Personally I would look at keeping her stress levels low, try not to push her over threshold in terms of strangers, strange dogs etc.  Try to exercise her brain as well as her body - scent work (finding hidden toys, treats) or tracking (following human footprints and disturbed earth) is ideal as most dogs enjoy using their nose and can be performed in your garden and house.  If she is not very driven in terms of working for a toy, build her drive and focus on a particular toy.  Buy a specific training toy (a small leather tuggy is usually a favourite with GSDs and small enough to fit in your pocket).  Only bring the toy out for short bursts of fun play and interaction, then before she gets bored put it away again.  Build this over time so she looks forward to seeing this particular toy come out - and then you can start using it as a reward in training sessions and, depending on how focused she gets on it, it can help bring her attention back to you and away from distractions when out on walks.  All this initial training and play should be away from distractions, including your other dog.  

Studies in canine behavioral genetics have consistently shown that traits such as fearfulness, impulsivity, problem-solving ability, working drive, and even tendencies toward aggression are strongly influenced by breeding. Socialisation and early learning can certainly help to sway things in one direction or another, but these forces are operating on a pre-existing genetic blueprint.

That is not to say that behaviour cannot be molded - to an extent.  But you can only work with what you already have.  You cannot create a bombproof, sociable animal from a pup created from genetically weak nerves.

As you appear to have a pup from a not so great background who is struggling with behavior problems despite your best efforts, don&#8217;t beat yourself up!  Sometimes these problems can only be managed and not cured.  Too often we are told that there are no bad dogs, only bad owners - but this is simply not accurate.  That is not to say the dog is inherently bad - just that the genetics in her breeding mean she will never be a sociable, bombproof, take anywhere type of a dog.  Accept her for what she is and manage her behaviour carefully so that she has a good quality of life and cannot be a nuisance to other people and their dogs.  You can do a lot to help her live a safer, happier life - through continued training and careful management, you can help build her confidence and teach better coping skills to handle stress with the help of the professionals you are currently working with and of course these types of dogs can also have incredibly strong bonds with their owners.


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## Moobli (2 January 2017)

I would also suggest you contact David Ryan at Carlisle to see if he knows of anyone in your area who may also be able to help.

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/contact/


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## Laura2408 (2 January 2017)

Clodagh my trainer told me to think of it as a cup of water. Every little trigger adds some water until eventually the cup becomes full and spills over. 

It's quite evident when she is walked that this theory is true in a sense. So she can walk past a dog and I can see she's a little unsettled but she manages. If she hasn't had time in between triggers to calm down the second dog will perhaps make her bark once or twice. If a third thing comes last, say a cyclist before she has had time to calm down it will result in a huge reaction which will take her forever to recover from.

I try and give her lots of calm time and try my best to avoid things which will stress her but unfortunately nowhere is people or dog free sadly! we are moving to somewhere much more rural so hopefully this will help with this.


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## Laura2408 (2 January 2017)

Sorry cross posted workingGSD. Thank you, honestly the past two dogs I've owned have been enough to make me give up with dogs alltogether. My husband had made me promise the next one will be from the best breeder in th UK!

She is very carefully managed, we are moving somewhere which makes keeping her safe much easier so I'm looking forward to that! 

I will contact the recommendations on the thread also. I am happy with my current trainer and didn't want to confuse matters but a second opinion can't hurt.

On a brighter note she managed a walk with no reactions at all today so perhaps a new positive outlook is rubbing off!


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## budatiger (2 January 2017)

I would seriously consider prescription drugs.  My previous rescue greyhound was in a terrible mental state when I got her. Totally institutionalised after racing successfully until 4 years old. She was fine in a kennel environment, but couldn't cope once rehomed. Was in a permanent state of anxiety outwith my home, and showed some fear aggression towards other dogs & people who approached her.  She was in such a state that she seemed not able to learn anything.  Almost in permanent 'fight' mode. She was medicated with amitriptyline & gabapentin as also had back pain from an injury.  These seemed to enable her to think more rationally and she learnt eventually to cope with the outside world, and actually enjoyed going to new places etc.  My vet referred us to a vet who was a pain specialist and behaviourist first, and she came to my property to examine her & witness her reaction to the outside world and prescribed the drugs. Xanax etc. made her worse. I know some people frown upon medicating dogs, but it really helped her.  I persevered for about 6 months with two behaviourists, getting absolutely nowhere, before seeking more help. Where are you based?


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## Laura2408 (2 January 2017)

Thank you Bud, unfortunately we looked at those medications but she has a heart condition and also another condition which can be seriously effected by nausea and vomiting hence the vet ruled it out based on those.
I can discuss it with the vet again but it would be risky I think.

I am in Northumberland however am moving much further north in the next month or so!


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## budatiger (2 January 2017)

PM'd you, just in case you end up in Scotland.


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## TheresaW (2 January 2017)

I have read this post with interest, as always looking to learn, and I so like to know "the ins and outs of a ducks are", according to my mum.

I can't offer any advice, but it has made me think.  We have a cat who has always been strange.  She is a tiny thing, people mistake her for a kitten even now at 14. Sometimes me and OH have conversations about her saying things like, if she was human, she would be classed as this that or the other.  Could your girl have a canine equivalent of autism? Is there such a thing?

I'm sorry if I'm seeming flippant, am really not, am generally interested.


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## Alec Swan (2 January 2017)

TheresaW,  the Jesuits say "Give me a child to the age of 7 and that will be how the adult is" and there's some truth in that.  Just as our personalities are often mapped out at an early age either through our genetic makeup or the early learning influences,  or both interacting with each other,  so that's how it generally is for animals too.  

I always find that if I take in or breed a puppy,  by the time that it's 4 months of age,  the traits which separate it from others are already formed,  and that's why I never do anything restrictive with puppies as I want to see what I will have to work with in the future.  Mostly,  it seems to work too!

OP,  having read more of your posts,  I think that you've made remarkable progress with a puppy which was always most likely to display 'curious' behaviour.  That said,  I think it highly unlikely that you'll ever completely eradicate the defensive and so aggressive aspect of her view of what she doesn't seem able to understand.  When attack is the best means of defence and it becomes engrained,  then it's likely to be there to a greater or lesser degree,  for ever.  NOBODY will be more pleased than I to be wrong!  Good luck.

Alec.


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## Fellewell (3 January 2017)

twiggy2 said:



			Nothing positive or helpful in this post, with regards to lunging comment- how the dog got there is irrelevant it's t this point. 
How would you deal with things?
		
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You're entitled to your opinion but she's had the dog since it was six months, it's now 2 years. In what universe is it acceptable for a dog in a pet home to lunge at strangers? I'd argue that this failure to correct is totally relevant.
The most crucial point here, and the one that prompted my response, is in post #21, 1st line of para 3. That tells me everything I need to know about this set up.


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## LD&S (3 January 2017)

Clodagh said:



			I am not disgreeing with this post, I know nothing about dogs like these hyper aggressive/reactive types but the trouble is does it not become a vicious circle? You can't exercise them as they can't leave the house so they get more uptight and stressed? Or am I putting my emotions and thoughts onto a dog? This is an interested question, not a having a go!
		
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Didn't think for a moment you were.

My previous greyhound was a rescue and was traumatised by the journey from Ireland, he loved going out but any traffic going by was a big risk as he used to pull back very hard, our street is quiet but parallel to it is a busier road so initially I would only walk him for about 20yrds on the busier road and the rest of our walks were on very quiet roads. Luckily he did adjust but it did him no favours if I tried it for longer, the same with dog training classes, initially he was ok but as time went on it was taking 3 days for him to calm down so I stopped taking him. I only ever did things with him he was comfortable with, happy dog happy owner and after a couple of years he was able to cope with going in a lift in the town and walked down the main road without a care in the world.
The less we asked of him the more he was able to cope with, maybe OP dog is a bit like that.


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## dollyanna (3 January 2017)

Clodagh said:



			I am not disgreeing with this post, I know nothing about dogs like these hyper aggressive/reactive types but the trouble is does it not become a vicious circle? You can't exercise them as they can't leave the house so they get more uptight and stressed? Or am I putting my emotions and thoughts onto a dog? This is an interested question, not a having a go!
		
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You would think this would be the case, but often it isn't. I tried to push through, to do as much as possible within coping levels, but it wasn't until after we stopped (for other reasons, could no longer train or compete in agility) I realised how much better he was for not going out so much, for not being pushed. And this was after I realised he did actually need a good week virtually housebound after an agility weekend just in order to return to his (relatively) normal levels of stress and reactivity - trying to avoid this just led to immense distress on both our parts.
Less is certainly more for many dogs, we just don't realise how much they are processing just in day to day life sometimes, and sometimes exercise just leaves them more wired and reactive so it is better all round to limit it.


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## planete (26 January 2017)

Laura you have a pm.


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## Micky (26 January 2017)

My dog was bullied and lacking in confidence when younger, approx 5 months old onwards, puppy classes through the stages bronze etc..all good, but he reacted to dogs when we walked in public places, also in the back of the car, barking, running and barking (getting in there first) in dogs faces and then wanting to play or just wandered off..I was very wary in the end of taking him anywhere..! Found a local dog group who organise walks once/twice a week at weekends,sometimes it's 10 dogs, other times can be 25/30 dogs, all with owners, all very friendly and understanding with control over their dogs either off or on leads, with tennis balls, treats etc...it was a massive relief and release for me when he didn't react to them and ran around waiting for me to throw his ball, a few others love the ball too and he will now run with them after said ball....after quite a few walks, I'm much more relaxed when walking on the lead (or off) and when we haven't got a ball (but a pocketful of treats) and he is thriving off this...I started walking him through our village, firstly with absolute fav treat, making sure he knew I had them doing simple training i.e. Sit etc, distraction for when we met other dogs..and it worked...so if there is a local dog group (mine are on Facebook), I would recommend going along, meeting and explaining your situation, the confidence they give you will rub off on your dog...oh and I've had two dogs before this with no problems!! massively good luck and try not to anticipate what might happen, just what won't, as in, oh it's just another dog and walk on..I have no other ideas bar maybe change you behaviourist..


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