# Sacroiliac or Kissing Spine



## Mystified (11 June 2011)

Hi Everyone - sorry its a long one!!

I wondered if anyone could help I have been struggling with our daughters new event pony who arrived on our yard last October.  

Since arriving we have effectively been rehabing him and to date we appear to be no further forward.

The day after he arrived we had the saddler out to fit him with a new saddle.  Everytime we put a saddle on he would buck and disunite in the rear when in canter on the left lead.  Instructor found saddle that fitted and saddler came out and checked and agreed.  Literally days later same thing disuniting and bucking in canter.

We got the physio out and she said he had a very sore back and should be lunged and hacked only for 6 weeks and to find a different saddle as it was too long for his back.  Saddler and instructor disagreed.   Anyway followed physio advice up until xmas and then under guidance with instructor introduced canter in forward position for a couple of circuits.  After xmas began to sit for a circuit same thing happens.  Get physio out again says it is saddle and that he has sore back - buy another saddle.  Anyway get different saddler out says there is no problem.  Physio comes out again and then says he is lame in front get blacksmith out.   No lameness detected.  Get vet out he agrees no lameness in front, saddle fine thinks he has done sacroilliac.  Injects sacroiliac carry on rehab.   Get to Feb/March still no improvement take x-rays of rear hinds no problems apart from minuscule bone spavin forming on rear hind.  Fit him with lateral extensions carry on rehab.   Gridwork, hacking etc.  Introduced canter again slowly on each rein in forward and have begun to put weight back in saddle and after two days of doing one circuit on each rein he is back to bucking and disuniting on left lead.

We have had problems getting him to come on to a contact and was intitially hollowing and stick head up in the air and had lack of top line.   But daughter and instructor have worked closely together to improve this and he is now working in a better outline but can overbend and go on the forehand.  He generally doesn't seem to like it when he is asked to work in an outline he finds it difficult.   Have asked vet and physio on numerous occasions whether it could be kissing spine but still seem to be going down the route of sacroiliac which are similar symptons.

We have currently, spent now more than we paid for him! He passed a 5 stage vetting at beginning of October and we have not been able to do a thing with him a part from hack and carry out his rehab.   I have the vet coming out next week to consider injecting his sacroiliac again but this is expensive and the only next thing is a full body scan.  At the moment I have been funding this personally as I didn't think the insurance company would payout as the problem basically arose the day after he arrived home.  The frustrating thing is that he is the sweetest temperament and is so genuine it will be hard to give up on him.  But I am not sure whether there is light at the end of the tunnel.   

Sorry it is such a long speel but has anyone had similar symptons with Kissing Spine or Sacroiliac problems?  I know the vet is probably going to suggest a full body scan but its whether we keep on ploughing money into him or not as my hope is beginning to dwindle.


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## Allover (11 June 2011)

Sounds like you have really been through it with him 

If he were mine i would probably get a full body scan done on him, that way you will know where the "hot spots" are and work from there. There is no point injecting him in SI if the problem is not there, TBH i am surprised the vet gave him an inj there already without being sure that was the problem. 

Best of luck and i hope it all turns out well for you


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## TicTac (11 June 2011)

I've had experience with both :-( Sounds more like kissing spine to me as in my experience hip pain manifests itself more as a lameness/stiffness behind.

To be sure, best get a vet to have a look and ask for xrays of the back then you can take it from there.


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## horsedreams (12 June 2011)

only an idea but did the vet who did the 5 stage vetting take a blood sample ?

if so get it tested to see if he had been on bute or some pain relief it may give you a clause for your insurance -- speak to the insurance they might cover 
--bone scans are expensive we had one 8 weeks ago on a mare (more or less same signs as your pony)
KS,right hind PSD and sacroiliac left side diagnosed luckily my insurance is covering it all 

if the symptons  started the day after you got him surely something would of shown up while being put through a 5 stage


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## Mystified (13 June 2011)

Not sure if it will be too late to get the blood tested now as they typically only keep it for 6 months.

We put him on Danilone twice a day for two weeks and it didn't make any difference.

His symptoms are worse if you canter him regularly, if you don't canter him for a couple of weeks and only do a couple of circuits he is fine.  But if you tried the next day he would start tail swishing, disuniting and bucking.

In the 5 stage vetting, the lady only cantered him in the forward position, didn't think anything of it then as the vet wanted him to bowl on to check his breathing and heart rate.

At home as long as you are in the forward position and keep him on a loose rein he is fine.  It is as soon as you ask him to work in an outline he struggles on the left lead.


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## karen.close (13 June 2011)

Hi this sounds like my 13 year old, last week he had bone scan done after lots of niggling things happening, the most noticeable was him being stiff from behind and after coming back into work after the winter his right hind looking dropped, dragging feet downhill and struggling, after having the physio out he was stiff in his neck, sore across his back and his sacroiliac area was just sponge on the right side rather than firm muscle. She thought his problem was around this area but did say normally a problem here is secondary to something else.

Anyway my gutt instinct told me something wasn't right and last week he spent 4 days at our local equine hospital. I got the news friday, his bone scan shown hotspots in his right hock, right fore, and base of his neck, after further xrays they shown early stages of bone spavin in the hock, arthritis in his pedal bone and neck, the most shocking was kissing spine impinging on verterbras 15,16,17. I has suspected this but didn't want to hear the dreaded news.

After a awful weekend I have posts on here about it, support from fellow forum members I have become a lot more clearer today and have had a very lengthy conversation with my vet. He has been treated with Tildren they will not operate on the ks due to other problems going on elsewhere. 

I suggest if there is any doubt and to save spending anymore money on saddles, physios and vets get the bone scan done, this will show you everything that is going on and point them to areas that need to be focused on.

I have a long road ahead just like horsedreams the most I can hope for is he becomes comfortable and pain free.

Keep us posted x


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## karen.close (13 June 2011)

can I also say mine was 5* vetted, showed shortening in his stride, and his upward transition from walk/trot trot/canter was awful, his downward transitions were even worse, very tense across the back, he just didn't look right from behind. He never bucked, reared and was clearing 3.3ft courses 2 months ago winning against ponies. My horse was telling me something wasn't right I'm glad I listened to him.


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## Mystified (13 June 2011)

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for the replies,  I have vet coming out again on Wednesday morning to do a review and discuss progress with myself and instructor.

I have been investigating cost of full body scan and it appears that this is about £1,150 plus livery fees so I think approx £1,500.

What I was not aware of is that once they have highlighted the problem areas that you then have to have it x-rayed.

If we suspect that it is either his back or pelvis (Kissing or Sacroilliac) would it not make sense to go straight to x-ray as this is much cheaper?

I have already had his rear hocks x-rayed which showed up a very small bone spavin forming but he has not in the several times we have flexioned him come up lame, so vet doesn't think this is causing the problem.

Also, has anyone had experience of Thermal Imaging as there is company close by who will do a complete body scan for approx £230.00.  Briefly spoke to vet on this and he didn't seem to give Therma Imaging much credence.


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## jenadamson (13 June 2011)

Hi there, I can definitely recommend thermal imaging - I have just been using it for my college dissertation (cold backed horses) and the image results are amazing - they basically show up heat in your horses back which is inflammation / increased circulation, so would def show up kissing spines or SI strain. The vets are coming around to it, but seem to not trust it for some reason, however it can show up inflammation before any lameness even presents, so you can catch subtle injury and treat before it develops, the vets could make huge use of this technology! 
Good luck with yours...just type equine thermography into google and you should find someone nearby (and it should only cost you about £70 to get the back thermal imaged, its a 2 min job).
Hope this helps.


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## horsedreams (13 June 2011)

Mystified said:



			Hi Everyone,

Thanks for the replies,  I have vet coming out again on Wednesday morning to do a review and discuss progress with myself and instructor.

I have been investigating cost of full body scan and it appears that this is about £1,150 plus livery fees so I think approx £1,500.

What I was not aware of is that once they have highlighted the problem areas that you then have to have it x-rayed.

If we suspect that it is either his back or pelvis (Kissing or Sacroilliac) would it not make sense to go straight to x-ray as this is much cheaper?

I have already had his rear hocks x-rayed which showed up a very small bone spavin forming but he has not in the several times we have flexioned him come up lame, so vet doesn't think this is causing the problem.

Also, has anyone had experience of Thermal Imaging as there is company close by who will do a complete body scan for approx £230.00.  Briefly spoke to vet on this and he didn't seem to give Therma Imaging much credence.
		
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hi
yes they xray the areas where problems have shown up so yes it would be cheaper to xray first -- in my situation my insurance paid 

the thermal imaging costs around £80 here up north --friend had it done the other week as no insurance for bone scan --this may be the way to go first before xrays so you know the areas you're dealing with


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## VLHIEASTON (13 June 2011)

Hi, I've been through the same, turned out to be KS, maybe vets don't like thermal imaging (or whatever it was called) as they would loose money from not scanning ?!

Good luck.


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## Mystified (15 June 2011)

Hi Everyone,

Thought I would give you an update following visit from vet today.

Did his normal lameness work up, trot up, lunge on hard and in arena all fine. (Although absolute looney on the lunge to begin with)

Back and flexibility okay but still slightly sore in sacroiliac area.

Ridden fine until contact taken up - vet really pushed the boundaries with him today, still weak in canter on left lead but has advised to ride with less contact and let him go more forward to build up his muscle and strength and then gradually bring him back into an outline and contain the speed.  (Very forward on a looser rein).   He seemed to be able to balance better if he was allowed to go faster in his canter and on a looser contact and wasn't on his forehand so much.  Whereas previously he had asked us to contain him in an outline to build up topline.

So I am relieved that we appear to be making progress after 9 months of slowly building his work up.  We just need over the next couple of months to work on his canter.  However, the vet did say that when we ride him tomorrow after all the work we did today I might be calling him and saying its all gone pear shaped but hopefully not.

At least it will make my husband smile when I tell him that we are not off for a bone scintigraphy yet.

Thanks for all your replies everyone and I will let you know how we are progressing shortly.


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## Kenzo (16 June 2011)

Regarding flexion tests, if they have a spavin, they don't always show during a flexion test, as in lameness, a spavin will have a knock on effect to the rest of the body, his back and a shortness of stride as they will find a way to compensate their weight and gait.


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## opinionuk (16 June 2011)

Mystified said:



			Hi Everyone - sorry its a long one!!

I wondered if anyone could help I have been struggling with our daughters new event pony who arrived on our yard last October.  

Since arriving we have effectively been rehabing him and to date we appear to be no further forward.

The day after he arrived we had the saddler out to fit him with a new saddle.  Everytime we put a saddle on he would buck and disunite in the rear when in canter on the left lead.  Instructor found saddle that fitted and saddler came out and checked and agreed.  Literally days later same thing disuniting and bucking in canter.

We got the physio out and she said he had a very sore back and should be lunged and hacked only for 6 weeks and to find a different saddle as it was too long for his back.  Saddler and instructor disagreed.   Anyway followed physio advice up until xmas and then under guidance with instructor introduced canter in forward position for a couple of circuits.  After xmas began to sit for a circuit same thing happens.  Get physio out again says it is saddle and that he has sore back - buy another saddle.  Anyway get different saddler out says there is no problem.  Physio comes out again and then says he is lame in front get blacksmith out.   No lameness detected.  Get vet out he agrees no lameness in front, saddle fine thinks he has done sacroilliac.  Injects sacroiliac carry on rehab.   Get to Feb/March still no improvement take x-rays of rear hinds no problems apart from minuscule bone spavin forming on rear hind.  Fit him with lateral extensions carry on rehab.   Gridwork, hacking etc.  Introduced canter again slowly on each rein in forward and have begun to put weight back in saddle and after two days of doing one circuit on each rein he is back to bucking and disuniting on left lead.

We have had problems getting him to come on to a contact and was intitially hollowing and stick head up in the air and had lack of top line.   But daughter and instructor have worked closely together to improve this and he is now working in a better outline but can overbend and go on the forehand.  He generally doesn't seem to like it when he is asked to work in an outline he finds it difficult.   Have asked vet and physio on numerous occasions whether it could be kissing spine but still seem to be going down the route of sacroiliac which are similar symptons.

We have currently, spent now more than we paid for him! He passed a 5 stage vetting at beginning of October and we have not been able to do a thing with him a part from hack and carry out his rehab.   I have the vet coming out next week to consider injecting his sacroiliac again but this is expensive and the only next thing is a full body scan.  At the moment I have been funding this personally as I didn't think the insurance company would payout as the problem basically arose the day after he arrived home.  The frustrating thing is that he is the sweetest temperament and is so genuine it will be hard to give up on him.  But I am not sure whether there is light at the end of the tunnel.   

Sorry it is such a long speel but has anyone had similar symptons with Kissing Spine or Sacroiliac problems?  I know the vet is probably going to suggest a full body scan but its whether we keep on ploughing money into him or not as my hope is beginning to dwindle.
		
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I had a similar experience with my mare but it was rearing rather than bucking and she wouldn't work from behind as she found it very difficult and we couldn't find out why, I also has the physio and back lady out, she was a little sore in her back so we rested her for a few weeks, she had her saddle fitted professionally which didn't seem to make much difference, she was also uncomfortable when I got on she was very tense until she had warmed up then loosened off a bit I took her to a equine hospital as the vet couldn't work out the problem, she had lots of nerve blocks done and all 4 legs xrayed, all legs were ok so her back was xrayed and it was found she had kissing spine I was absolutely gutted as I also bought her to event and she was only 4 at the time.

I also bought the horse with a 5* vets certificate, she wasn't insured either so like you I am paying for the treatment myself.

Personally I would get her xrayed but thats only from personal experience.


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## loopylucifer (16 June 2011)

Good to hear you have made some progress.Although i would still be looking at getting back x rayed. Mine had not dis simmilar problems and it went on for ages and evntually had back scaned and x rayed and doesn't have kissing spine but arthristis in the joints of the verterbra. it went on for a long time and couldnt bone scan due to no possiable insurance issue so evntually ended up xaraying everything that could be xrayed. She started out having physio every 6months and when got really bad went 3 weeks before bucking in canter right rein only not really going forwards and cantering disuntied. also look after another with same problem that also has sore sacroiliac region prob as a result of the other problem.


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## Mystified (18 June 2011)

Help.....

Please can anyone give me advice on what to do next.

In my last update I said that the vet had been out and reviewed my daughters pony's progress re: suspected SI Injury which we have been rehabing since last October.

He inferred on Thursday that it was in part that he was sensitive to the way our daughter rode him!!    Previously he had asked her to ride him in more of an outline to build up his topline which the pony struggled to do as was always twisting his head and fidgeting with his mouth, overbending etc.  Also in canter which he struggles with as he bucks and disunites on the left lead we had been doing a couple of circuits in forward position and then sitting for a circuit.  The pony really struggles and again was overbending not happy in the mouth, constantly wanting to stretch down and disuniting/bucking on left lead.

When he came up he asked our daughter to ride him more forward in the canter and not ask for a contact.  Which he went around the arena extremely fast and appeared to be okay.  So parting comment from vet to myself and instructor was to continue down this root and them gradually address the speed and bring him back into an outline over a period of time.   Now this has been going on for sometime now and I still feel in my gut that something more mechanical is going on.   

Anyway I thought after Thursday no I will back off I am being over anxious and analyzing things to much lets let them get on with it.   Her instructor came over the next evening as I was convinced things would go pear shaped as they normally do if he is ridden in canter for 2 or 3 days in a row.  Anyway the more forward canter appeared to work although he was very fast, the odd swish and disunite.  So instructor proceeded to jump him too which I thought he was too fast, too flat and kept getting in deep.  Anyway to cut along story short, daughter rode him last night and when she cantered him as instructed by the vet he just bucked and disunited like mad on both reins and zooming around the arena extremely fast.

Surely this pony is trying to tell us that their is something wrong it can't surely just be the way he is ridden.  Daughter has been riding since 7 and is now nearly 17 and we have never had problems with the way she has ridden all her other ponies and previous horse (who we downsized from).   My vets bills are just esculating and I am not seeing any progress with this pony at all.  He is only happy if you walk and trot him, I tried getting her to do sitting trot on him last night as this is something we have never tried because of his back.  His ears went back and his tail was swishing all over the place.

Where do I go if my vet doesn't seem to feel there is a problem!!!

Can anyone give me any advice?


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## TicTac (18 June 2011)

Maybe just bite the bullet and have an xray of the back and pelvis which would probably be cheaper than a bone scan.

My mare had kissing spine surgery last year ( Successful)  and exhibited some of your horses symptons. However if you do discover that the probelm is kissing spine or of a sacroilliac nature, an operation is not cheap. and neither are injections which most people find only relieve the symptoms temporarily. So where you go from there would be just as expensive! Sorry I couldn't be more help.


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## karen.close (18 June 2011)

I agree the pony is trying to tell you something, id look at his back and get it x-rayed, if you can't afford the bone scan look in that area. He seems to be telling u he is uncomfortable or in pain. I listened to the signs my horse was telling me and I believed he wasn't being naughty or bad behaved and thank god I did. I feel for you I have just been through the same and am trying to stay positive with the outcome x


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## brokenleg (18 June 2011)

Maybe a bit of a daft question but have you had the pony look at by a GOOD equine osteopath. I had similar ish problems with my horse and we found a very old injury in lumbar region which we are now treating??? just a thought??


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## Mystified (18 June 2011)

I initially had a physio out when he first showed symptons who is recommended by our vet.  Haven't gone back to her though as each time she came out she kept saying it was the saddle.  Had 3 different saddlers out who said it wasn't and eventually vet agreed to.

One of the saddlers was a quailified Chriopracter she did a quick look but I didn't ask her to do any treatment as I didn't want my vet then saying he wouldn't treat the pony anymore as I had gone against his advice and he hadn't agreed to it.

How do you go about saying to your vet - sorry but I don't agree with your diagnosis - I think there is something definitely wrong - without it causing a bad atmosphere?


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## karen.close (18 June 2011)

Physios are great and can help a lot with ur horse for little niggling problems but the fact of the matter is as my vet said himself u could have the best back person in the world out but they can't see what's going on with ur horse.

I had my physio out twice in 4 weeks and although she pinpointed where she thought the problem was and tryed to relax and ease his muscles with ultrasound and pads when I asked her does she think it's ks she was sceptical and said I don't think so but I have been proven wrong, she is very highly regarded physio with a good reputation. 

Having the vet looking at him as well and him going to there local centre for x-rays on hock and intense lunging and flexion tests the only thing he could come up with that day was he had mild arthritic changes in his right hock and to continue riding, however the next day I called him and just told him no I wasn't happy something was up I knew my horse and I wanted either a full body scan or his back x-rayed, it just wasn't him something was wrong and I could feel it in my gutt. 

At the end of the day ur doing what you think is best for your horse/pony x


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## karen.close (18 June 2011)

I meant to put physios can't see what's going on inside ur horse x


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## Mystified (20 June 2011)

Hi - Just thought I would let you know after a weekend of a very stressed horse.  I have bitten the bullet and booked for a Thermographer to come down and take thermal images of him to see if we can pin point where the problem is steming from.

Hopefully, it will pick up something that I can go back to my vet and say here you go we need to be looking at this.

However, I am considering switching to another practice as this has gone on so long but I will hold off until I get the report from the thermal imaging.

Will let you know the outcome soon.

Thanks for all your replies and support.


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## Mamamia (20 June 2011)

Good luck.  I shall be interested to hear the result.  I am currently going through the same thing with one of my horses.  It's been over a year and we're no further forward.


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## karen.close (20 June 2011)

Good luck x


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## Ivebeentangoed (21 June 2011)

Please let us know how you are getting on once you have had the thermograph done..

I had similar issues with my boy last year, the day after I bought him he bronched with me and put me in hospital (also passed a vetting)

After lots of physio visits etc and still not further forward with being able to ride I took him for an x-ray of his back, it was here the kissing spine was diagnosed.

He has had the operation to remove the conflicting dsp and is hapilly out hacking, YEY 

Good luck anyway xx


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## Mystified (22 June 2011)

Can't sleep!!  Got report back late tonight from Thermographer and it has basically confirmed what I thought.

All the indicators are is that it is all steming from the back - Kissing Spine.

A fair amount of constriction of the nerves has shown up in all forelimbs which also indicates that the spine is pressing on the nerves.

Not sure what to do now as I have asked my vet several times including at his last visit last week whether he thought it could be kissing spine and he said no.

Do I just send him the report and wait for his reaction?

Your thoughts please, I have spent a fortune with this practice since October is there any comeback?   Can I ask for a refund or for the x-rays on his back to be done free in lieu of all the heartache and cost I have been put through these last 9 months.  I have invested heaps of money with saddlers, physios, instructors etc to try and resolve this.


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## horsedreams (22 June 2011)

at least now you have an idea what you are dealing with and it can be treatable

it's annoying when you are spending all this money and not getting answers --
(been there but now in the rehab bit with mine --no surgery up to now and hopefully we will not have to go down this route if my mare carries on the way she is progressing but its been a long haul) 

as for your vets -- if you have lost faith in them it might be wise to change practices you need to have confidence and trust in a vet 

this may help (the link below) if you are near him or even give him a call or email with your findings from the report he maybe able to advise you what is the best way to go  now 

he is one of the best around for kissing spine and lameness issues and a lot of people on here rate him highly

http://www.svendkold.com/clinical_kissing_spines.html


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## Ivebeentangoed (22 June 2011)

If I were you I would get a 2nd opinion from another vet now.. I would be worried about sending my horse somewhere for kissing spine treatment knowing that they couldnt even pick up on it in the first place!

Please dont fear though, it is not the end of the road for you and your horse, my boy had surgery in January this year and is back in light work now 

I found that there wasnt much info about the help me make my decision when he was diagnosed and this forum really helped. If you would like a chat please pm me, I am more than happy to answer any queries you may have.

xx


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## karen.close (22 June 2011)

I feel for you I really do, I've recently gone through this heartache but mine was only fir a few months until I got a diagnosis.... Yours has been going on for so long now the the thing I find interesting is when previously you have asked is it ks your vet has said no, how can he possibly know this does he have x-ray vision.  I would echo what other people have just put get a second opinion that's what I did, honestly i can't even begin to tell you how I felt a few weeks ago with my vet and the specialist at the hospital. 

I don't know where u stand in getting a free x-ray but go ahead and complain you never know what they will offer you xxx


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## xxMozlarxx (22 June 2011)

Oh you poor thing, what a lesson in only using a physio for a muscle rub down, they cannot possibly diagnose any issue even a poorly fitting saddle, I never understand why they are so highly used.
Svend is  our usual vet and operated on my boy in Nov last year, we were xrayed immediately and appropriately, as you should of been on the symptoms you were having, I dont understand why this didnt happen for you! 
If you were to go to someone like Svend he would certainly work with you and not make you feel uncomfortable about querying his views, and neither should your current vet. I suggest you discuss your concerns with your vet and your view that they should have taken a different course of action, give them the chance to rectify if that is possible. If not go elsewhere. Your poor horse certainly suffered more than he needed, jumping can be excrutiating for a KS horse no wonder you have had such issues.
Good luck. xxx


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## BethH (23 June 2011)

Hi I have just read your post and am gobsmacked at how unhelpful and unaware your vet seems to be, please try a second opinion, i think your gut feeling is probably right.

My vets luckily were fab and happily referred me to Svend Kold at Willersley who operated on my horse for KS 5yrs ago. Although it was a 5hr journey in the horsebox, the amount of experience he has operating on KS horses meant that he was the only person I wanted to look after my horse. My vets sent him Ryan's xrays and scintigraphy and he also examined Ryan on arrival and confirmed that op or PTS were the only options as he was in constant pain.  Ryan received excellent care at the clinic and from the second he was out of that operating theatre you could see he was so relieved that his constant nagging back pain was gone even despite a 12inch cut down his back (which you can't even see any more!).

Ryan is still being ridden 5days a week 5years on and is dealing with things that I never imagined he could.  Many KS horse have such wonderful temperaments and you only realise how much they were suffering when you look back a year or so post op.  I agreed to the operation because my horse was such a lovely person and deserved the chance and I am so glad to still have him.  

I hope you manage to get it sorted and if it is KS there are many success stories out there and I sincerely hope your pony becomes one of them.


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## Mamamia (23 June 2011)

Sounds like you're making some progress at last.  Which thermographer did you use?


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## cadburysmummy (23 June 2011)

Hi there, have just found your post and can really sympathise.  Our 10 year old eventer had always had a sensitive back but this got worse in April of this year to the point where he could not be ridden.  After some physio (vet recommended) we eventually went for xrays and scans, which showed the true picture - arthritic changes to his spine.  Wasn't until I phoned our insurance company though that the dreaded kissing spine words were used!  We had a couple of choices, but opted for Tildren iv as opposed to an op as this was the softer option.  This has been followed up by laser treatment and physio twice weekly and the improvement is radical.  We're shortly going for our second injection.  It's not cheap at nearly £1k per treatment, but it's not so traumatic on the horse or bank balance!  Interestingly the horse is also displaying discomfort in the sacroid joints on both sides.  We are still not sure if he will ever event again, but things are looking so much more hopeful than they did a couple of months ago.  Ask your vet about Tildren.  Good luck.


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## Mystified (23 June 2011)

** Update **

Sent Vet copy of report via email - spoken to him today not impressed!!

Doesn't hold the report with any credence whatsover but is happy to x-ray spine if that is what I want (has to be referred though as they are not able to do it).

He still is not acknowledging that their could be a potential problem in his back and would prefer me to go down the route of scintigraphy and then x-rays.

For those of you who have had kissing spine diagnosis did any of you experience similar symptons or were yours more pronounced.

Our pony primarly shows up on the left canter lead in which he will: -

Tail swish
Disunite (particularly on corners)
Buck
Twist head and pull at the reins
Over bend
Either get strung out the more you ask him to canter.

Although canters okay on right lead will fall back to trot.

When jumping he tends to rush, jump very flat and can very often get in deep and never lands on the correct lead.  He typically will also switch legs before take off.

If we don't canter him for a while we can get a fairly steady trot in that he will be reasonably steady in the head and will attempt to accept the bit.

However, if we canter him on the left lead and it agrivates the back we will see a detoriation of the trot in that he becomes more hollow, head nodding, over bending and yanking at the reins.

We don't experience any bucking.


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## cadburysmummy (23 June 2011)

Posted something earlier about Tildren helping our horse.  We had no tail swishing or anything really pronouced, just wasn't going forward in his normal manner and also really tender to the touch - back went into spasm when running a hand down either side of spine.  Our vet suggested xray and scan.  Think maybe time to try ano vet and get a second opinion.


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## islandspirit (24 June 2011)

I had dreadful problems with my vet prior to getting a diagnosis of kissing spines. I kept telling my vet that I thought the problem was in the back but before I got the diagnosis (by changing vets, I should add) he was diagnosed with Navicular in both front feet, bone spavin to both hocks, arthritis in the right stifle and higher suspensory desmitis to the right hind suspensory ligament. He was given 6 steroid injections in total without a change to his way of going and then we had a huge arguement over how to treat the suspensory desmitis as the vet said this could be the only cause of pain left. I asked to be referred 4 times in total and the vet wouldn't, kept saying that he was capable of dealing with the problem. I changed vets and on the first visit he said that my horse had a back problem and referred me to Sven. After Xrays it was found that he had inpinging dorsal spinous processes through T11 to L2, 3 of which had fused. He had 5 dorsal processes removed, either that or the advice was PTS. I'm still rehabing at the moment but things have improved although it's been a long process and I'm currnetly waiting for the all clear to get back on board. Interestingly, Sven also xrayed the hocks and stifle again and said that there was no arthritis in the stifle at all and minimal changes to the hocks of little significance. Spirits symptoms were very stiff behind, bunny hops in canter on the left rein, extremely cold backed, didn't like to be groomed, started to refuse fences and became inconsistent in lateral work. He also couldn't cross his hinds when turned on a tight circle from the ground. I always thought he had a sacro illiac problem prior to this as he had less muscle over the quater than the right and has always held his tail to the right. But since the op the muscle mass is the same on both sides and he holds the tail to the left as much as to the right.


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## TicTac (24 June 2011)

My horse was diagnosed via x ray. The first young vet that came out to look at her at home thought she had a hindleg fetlock problem and advised me to put her on box rest for 5 days. I said No! especially as I had specifically asked for one of the senior vets as I knew my mare had a ' big ' problem and that I was convinced the problem was in her back. vet then told me to send her to the clininc for a lameness workup . I sent a very long detailed e-mail to the senior vet that would be dealing with her explaining her symptoms and behaviour. Sure enough xrays revealed 7 dorsal impingements. operation carried out last september.


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## xxMozlarxx (26 June 2011)

cadburysmummy said:



			Hi there, have just found your post and can really sympathise.  Our 10 year old eventer had always had a sensitive back but this got worse in April of this year to the point where he could not be ridden.  After some physio (vet recommended) we eventually went for xrays and scans, which showed the true picture - arthritic changes to his spine.  Wasn't until I phoned our insurance company though that the dreaded kissing spine words were used!  We had a couple of choices, but opted for Tildren iv as opposed to an op as this was the softer option.  This has been followed up by laser treatment and physio twice weekly and the improvement is radical.  We're shortly going for our second injection.  It's not cheap at nearly £1k per treatment, but it's not so traumatic on the horse or bank balance!  Interestingly the horse is also displaying discomfort in the sacroid joints on both sides.  We are still not sure if he will ever event again, but things are looking so much more hopeful than they did a couple of months ago.  Ask your vet about Tildren.  Good luck.
		
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Not sure all this treatment is any less costly or traumatic than the op TBH, ours cost less that 2k, and its permanent?


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## Ivebeentangoed (27 June 2011)

xxMozlarxx said:



			Not sure all this treatment is any less costly or traumatic than the op TBH, ours cost less that 2k, and its permanent?
		
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My KS op cost £1700 in total, however, I opted for a rehab livery yard to bring him back into work for me as working full time I knew I wouldnt be able to give him the care he needed. This turned out very expensive, but worth every penny!

My boy was a fidget when tacking up, backing off when trying to do the girth up, getting on was a nightmare, had to get a leg up but once in the saddle sometimes he would bronch until I was thrown off or leapt off! On a good day he was ok in walk and trot, his canter transition was awful, often running away from me in trot, when in canter he would fall out back into trot quite quickly. He was fine on the lunge, although disunited a lot and showing a slight lameness on the left rein..

I didnt call the vet out in the end, I booked an appointment and boxed him over there, I had been battling with him for 4 months and knew it had to be something serious.. A full lameness exam was carried out and when x-rayed he had impingments of T15/T16 and T16/T17.. They injected him with cortisone and told me to lunge in a pessoa for 5 weeks then ride again, I did this and when I did get back on he was the worst he's ever been. My option was either the op or pts so went for the op as he was such a lovely boy on the ground I had to give him a chance.

xx


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## Mystified (29 June 2011)

Hooray been referred to Sven Kold in a couple of weeks.

So hopefully we will know what the problem is.   May have to get on bended knees to my vet if it is what he suspects SI strain but after 9 months I need to know.

Will let you know how we get on.


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## messenger (29 June 2011)

Sorry to hear of your problems Mystified.

A really silly question as you already sound clued up, have you checked your horse for wolf teeth? My chap has two whoppers which are being removed next week and has been showing exactly the same symptoms; tail swishing, disunited (particularly on corners), buck, lack of flexion, over bend, stressed out the more you ask him to canter, doesn't halt square (fidgets on right rein in halt and moves quarters out to the left), when finally in halt stamps a foreleg like he's really not happy.

I had his spine x-rayed for KS which is clear, hocks x-rayed and tiny spur found which I am not worried about BUT he is showing suspensory damage (PSD) in his hind tendons following ultrasound. 20-30% damage so have opted for nerve op, although I am going to wait til the wolf teeth are removed as this COULD be the cause of his issues? Like you, I bought my horse last year and he was ok for a few weeks and then the niggles started. He's fine out hacking but then it's just straight lines and not many questions asked.

Like yours, mine is a lovely gentle giant (17.1hh TB/X) and wouldn't hurt a fly so I know it's not him being naughty.

Good luck, I hope you finally get to the bottom of what's wrong.


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## horsedreams (30 June 2011)

Mystified said:



			Hooray been referred to Sven Kold in a couple of weeks.

So hopefully we will know what the problem is.   May have to get on bended knees to my vet if it is what he suspects SI strain but after 9 months I need to know.

Will let you know how we get on.
		
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at last

hope all goes well as can do and please keep us updated

we may have to go this route now --

after i thought all was going well with my mare --she has taken a backwards step with pain showing up again  13 weeks after the injection into her back

so vets have now agreed she may have to have the op --i suppose good news in a way and bad news in the re hab bit as it will be like starting from the beginnig again just feels like time wasted but i suppose they have to try other things first and from reading your posts you have been at it longer than me and  most posters on KS to get to the op stage


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## karen.close (30 June 2011)

Hi Horsedreams I've just PM'd you, x


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## karen.close (30 June 2011)

Mystified said:



			Hooray been referred to Sven Kold in a couple of weeks.

So hopefully we will know what the problem is.   May have to get on bended knees to my vet if it is what he suspects SI strain but after 9 months I need to know.

Will let you know how we get on.
		
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Fingers crossed for you and hope it all goes ok, keep me updated x


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## Mystified (13 July 2011)

Well went to Sven yesterday - gosh wasn't expecting to be there for so long 6 hours it was a bit like a conveyor belt.

Anyway, saw him walked and trotted up and lunged and flexed the right hock (which on x-ray by my vet showed up a small bone spavin which my vet said wasn't causing any problems) and he went lame.  So nerve blocked re-did trotting up and then he was showing lame in left hock so blocked this as well.

Then saw him ridden and he still wasn't any different to ride - not accepting the bit, awful to canter, bucked and disunited.  

So he said definitely a back problem - possible kissing spine which we feared.

Off to x-ray, he x-rayed his back and his hocks again (only had them done in March).  X-ray didnt show up any further changes in the hocks and their wasn't any actual evidence of anything in the left although Sven is saying he has pain in both.

Back x-ray showed no kissing spine - both surprised but hooray.  But now what?

Ultrasound of back showed scarring and thickening to the supranious ligament along the spine just underneath the saddle area.  Which again was a surprise as all the pain and soreness is around the lumbar and sacroiliac region.  He scanned sacroiliac ligaments and they were fine.  (My vet has been treating him for sacroiliac pain for the last 4 months and injected him for this!!).

Sven's suggestion was that his hocks were probably the cause of pain and that we should treat these, have the back injected 'Mesotherapy' to help the soft tissues to recover, fit larger lateral extension shoes and then box rest him for two weeks, in hand walking for two weeks and then lunge on a pessoa for 6 weeks as he is still not strong enough to support a rider.  Then he would review him and see how he was after that.

Horse back home now on 2 days box rest whilst we draw breath and decide what we want to do.   My gut tells me that we could do all this and their still could be something else going on.  Also it didn't make any difference when his hocks were blocked to how he rode.

It is so difficult as we love him dearly and he has such a sweet temperament but if the insurance company decides not pay up we have spent £4,000 on him in the last 9 months and we are no futher foward.   Also he is 13 although fairly low mileage.  How could the vet have missed the bone spavins on flexion not only on vetting but he has also performed these twice at home during his visits.

Help advice please.


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## BethH (14 July 2011)

Hi, I was very pleased to hear you got to Svend Kold in the end, what a nightmare you've had!  From my experience I think he does know what he's doing, I would ask Willersley to provide you with a cost for the injections in to the back and give you a bit more detail about the shoeing as it may be very straightforward, that way you can assess the financial impact, all of the rest of it sounds quite straightforward and given how much effort you have put in to helping your horse so far, you may regret not seeing this through.

Dealing with this sort of thing is so emotionally draining, having been there myself you have all of my sympathy, I can fully understand why you feel near the limit of it all.

Good luck with making your decision, I hope whichever way you go, you get some peace of mind soon.


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