# Is Horse Riding Cruel?



## EquestrianEllie01 (23 September 2015)

Found this article today. Not really sure what I think or whether or not I agree with it, so thought I'd ask you guys your thoughts/opinions on it.

http://bitesizevegan.com/ethics-and-morality/is-horse-riding-cruel-is-it-vegan/

Not sure I agree with the bits about how both a saddle and bit cause a horse pain, but please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong


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## Speedyfluff (23 September 2015)

I haven't read the article but it is a subject I have been thinking about a lot recently. I have ridden for forty years and never thought much about the ethics of it. However, due to retiring my old mare and more recently my gelding due to kissing spines, I have started to wonder. I am currently breaking in my four year old and he's such a lovely boy. He enjoys his life in the field, but now the time has come to start his ridden career. And I actually feel quite mean! He objected a fair bit to being lunged, though he has now settled. I am just starting to sit on him now, and so far he's been a good boy. But I haven't bitted him yet, nor have I worked him on the lunge with any gadgets. In the past I have always bitted horses first and made them work with tack and side reins and de gouge before getting on them. The more I think about bits, the more I dislike them. But he will be bitted and worked in a bit eventually because I want to compete him in dressage. But I must say, I'm quite torn.


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## EquestrianEllie01 (23 September 2015)

Speedyfluff said:



			I haven't read the article but it is a subject I have been thinking about a lot recently. I have ridden for forty years and never thought much about the ethics of it. However, due to retiring my old mare and more recently my gelding due to kissing spines, I have started to wonder. I am currently breaking in my four year old and he's such a lovely boy. He enjoys his life in the field, but now the time has come to start his ridden career. And I actually feel quite mean! He objected a fair bit to being lunged, though he has now settled. I am just starting to sit on him now, and so far he's been a good boy. But I haven't bitted him yet, nor have I worked him on the lunge with any gadgets. In the past I have always bitted horses first and made them work with tack and side reins and de gouge before getting on them. The more I think about bits, the more I dislike them. But he will be bitted and worked in a bit eventually because I want to compete him in dressage. But I must say, I'm quite torn.
		
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I like this. I'm very much the same with my youngster at the mo.


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## oldie48 (23 September 2015)

In a word, No! If I thought it was I wouldn't do it. Taking the vegan position that no animal should be used for personal gain, we wouldn't have horses, pigs, cows, sheep, goats etc except for those in the wild.This would give us the interesting problem of how we would manage our countryside as lots of it isn't suitable for arable use. It's interesting, isn't it that man's development started when we moved from the forest where we foraged fruit and nuts to the coast where we started to catch and eat fish, giving us enough protein to survive with time to spare to do other things. As far as I'm concerned, if vegans don't think it's OK to ride, that's fine with me. Each to his/her own but not not for me!


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## YorksG (23 September 2015)

Having had a cursory look at the article, anyone who references a man who is teaching his horses Latin, looses my interest and their credibility at that stage.


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## Goldenstar (23 September 2015)

I am not quite strong enough to wade through that today .


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## fattylumpkin (23 September 2015)

You don't want to go too deep down that rabbit hole, it never ends and it's dark down there.

There's some people who hold that all pet ownership causes cruelty in some form or other, either directly or indirectly, because it all feeds an industry that is extremely wasteful when you think about just how many unwanted or broken animals are euthanized yearly.  That links in to other industries that produce the goods we buy - there's a big debate here atm about equestrian sports fuelling the use of hexavalent chromium in India's leather tanning industry in order to get cheaper leather goods mass produced, how the factories responsible for making saddle blankets are even less ethical than the fashion industry, etc.  All this before we even get to the question of whether the act of keeping and riding a horse is cruel in itself.  Basically if you look for cruelty you're going to find it in evidence everywhere you look and there's no escape.

For myself, I reason that my horse is happy with what she does and even enjoys it - I'm a big believer that animals do have emotions and feelings and science would seem to back this up, so it is possible for her to be happy.  I try not to be wasteful when it comes to buying gear and I try not to put my own enjoyment/comfort/convenience before hers.  That's as far as I allow myself to think.


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## Cortez (23 September 2015)

Is horse riding cruel? No, not particularly. It's also not what a horse would choose to do with its time if given the choice, but I'm OK with that.


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## cobgoblin (23 September 2015)

Well I watched it, which was quite an achievement considering how much that woman annoyed me. She could certainly do with a bite of something, preferably with some calories in it!
I agree with some things, that some horses ( perhaps most) are broken too young before their skeletons are mature. That some riders are careless about bitting  and tack such that injury occurs, but then if anyone talks about horses you can usually find something to agree on. Really this is a black and white version by someone to the hard right of animal politics and therefore a completely unbalanced view. She probably doesn't realise that most riders that carry a whip never use it for more than a light tap, if that, or that they take care to find a bit that suits a horse or even that a saddle has to be fitted. I don't think there would be many horses about if everyone just looked at them or took them for walks.
She should probably stick to talking about vegetables. I wonder what she would do if they discovered vegetables could feel pain?


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## MDB (23 September 2015)

I haven't read the article, only the title... maybe I will summon up the energy to read it later.  But anybody can ride a horse in a cruel and harsh manner, sometimes without realising it, depending on the physical and mental health of the animal, how well fitting the tack is, and the manner in which the horse is ridden and handled by the rider. I like to think that most of us are pretty well in tune with how our horses, and if anything, you only have to read the posts on this forum to see how we worry over our horses and put their well-being before anything else. I have no doubt my two horses were ridden in a cruel and harsh manner in their previous lives, but I like to think that I handle them, interact with them and ride them in a more sympathetic sympathetic way and I know that when we do go out, their ears are forward, they are interested and curious, and in my mind are happy to be out and about on our hacks. I would not ride them if I thought for a second what I was doing  to them was cruel.


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## fattylumpkin (23 September 2015)

cobgoblin said:



			She should probably stick to talking about vegetables. I wonder what she would do if they discovered vegetables could feel pain?
		
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There are actually studies in progress that want to determine whether plant hormone reactions to stimuli count as a form of intelligence and/or pain response  which is quite amusing.  I'm veggie myself but I try to keep common sense intact.


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## cobgoblin (23 September 2015)

fattylumpkin said:



			There are actually studies in progress that want to determine whether plant hormone reactions to stimuli count as a form of intelligence and/or pain response  which is quite amusing.  I'm veggie myself but I try to keep common sense intact.
		
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If such studies are proved, I'd really like to see her response.


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## Auslander (23 September 2015)

Bloody hippies


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## fattylumpkin (23 September 2015)

cobgoblin said:



			If such studies are proved, I'd really like to see her response.
		
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To cut out all forms of life from her diet and live on clay and mineral deposits instead, ethically sourced.  And then post a blog on the internet arguing that keeping houseplants is cruel.


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## Annagain (23 September 2015)

I haven't read the article, but am aware of the vegan view that no animal should be used for humans' gain. That would also mean that we shouldn't have cats and dogs (or any animal for that matter) as pets as we gain from that relationship. Seeing as they've been domesticated for hundreds of thousands of years, they'd struggle a bit if we suddenly turfed them out to fend for themselves. 

Regardless of the rights and wrongs, we've created a world for them where they rely on us, so we have to see that through. If we take pleasure from that in return (either from pets or from riding horses) I don't see a problem with that as long as they're not mistreated.


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## EquestrianEllie01 (23 September 2015)

Loving some of these replies especially yours fattylumpkin! After having been up to do my horses, and taken the old boy on a hack, I think I have come to the same conclusion as most of you. My horses seem very happy and quite honestly if they don't feel like being ridden, they tell me! Completely agree with the 'no pet can be vegan' stance, as we all get gain from that relationship.
I do also think annagain is right in saying that we have created a world where they rely on us and so should see that through.
Also agree with whomever said that the woman needs to eat something!


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## Flicker (23 September 2015)

It can be done in a cruel way, but on the whole I don't believe that the disciplines in which we train our horses to participate are cruel in themselves.  They are mostly structured exercise in one form or another designed to improve muscle strength and cardiovascular fitness, thereby improving longevity and quality of life (provided they are done properly).
My horse is nearly 20.  He is schooled to Advanced Medium and has done dressage all his life.  Apart from a touch of arthritis that we caught early, he's strong and healthy.  I think he is happy - he has an interesting job, a warm place to sleep and a friend.
Would he be happier atrophying in a field, with no muscle tone and one day merging into another?  I'd like to think not.  I hope not!


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## cobgoblin (23 September 2015)

fattylumpkin said:



			To cut out all forms of life from her diet and live on clay and mineral deposits instead, ethically sourced.  And then post a blog on the internet arguing that keeping houseplants is cruel.
		
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Could give a whole new meaning to ' ***** a br**k' !


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## EquestrianEllie01 (23 September 2015)

cobgoblin said:



			Could give a whole new meaning to ' ***** a br**k' !
		
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Hahaha, my laptop is now covered in tea!!!


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## fburton (23 September 2015)

fattylumpkin said:



			hexavalent chromium
		
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Discusting! :frown3:


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## JFTDWS (23 September 2015)

fattylumpkin said:



			To cut out all forms of life from her diet and live on clay and mineral deposits instead, ethically sourced.  And then post a blog on the internet arguing that keeping houseplants is cruel.
		
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Fruitarianism?  She'd need some sort of energy source, and unless she takes up photosynthesising herself, she may have issues there...


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## cobgoblin (23 September 2015)

JFTD said:



			Fruitarianism?  She'd need some sort of energy source, and unless she takes up photosynthesising herself, she may have issues there...
		
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Windfalls only surely, I mean, having your fruits pulled off must be painful.


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## Cortez (23 September 2015)

I used to work for a lady who apologised to the lettuce before she ate it.........and also only ate windfall fruits. Very nice lady, but a bit, um, impractical shall we say?


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## pennyturner (23 September 2015)

I can honestly say that my ponies enjoy being ridden.  They're out in 12 acres, in a big herd, and come right over to be caught, knowing that they are going out, despite never receiving any food reward.  The ones who get left behind tend to stare after us wistfully.

... but then we are hacking out, not going round and round in a boring school.


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## madmav (23 September 2015)

No one wants to work, it's what we do. Same with horses. If no one is going to ride them, they ain't going to exist. Better a life with a bit of work and some grub and love, than never to have lived at all (to utterly misquote Tennyson).


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## ycbm (23 September 2015)

madmav said:



			No one wants to work, it's what we do. Same with horses.
		
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Definitely not true     I owned a horse who would load himself into any wagon that was open and wait to be taken to an event, and who was twice seen to jump a course of show jumps when loose in a field.

I've had three which would walk straight past their own gate to carry on a hack for longer, and others who are reluctant to turn round and head home when on an 'out and back' ride.

And I never tie up to tack up and my horses never walk away from a saddle, so at the very least I'd have to come to the conclusion that they don't mind working.


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## Nessa4 (23 September 2015)

ycbm said:



			Definitely not true     I owned a horse who would load himself into any wagon that was open and wait to be taken to an event, and who was twice seen to jump a course of show jumps when loose in a field.

I've had three which would walk straight past their own gate to carry on a hack for longer, and others who are reluctant to turn round and head home when on an 'out and back' ride.

And I never tie up to tack up and my horses never walk away from a saddle, so at the very least I'd have to come to the conclusion that they don't mind working.
		
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We had one who, when he started with navicular, would do his level best (no pun intended) to appear sound, and who once marched into the tack room and fetched his own saddle!!  My current youngster loves learning new things and going to new places.  Only problem we have with him is that he won't lunge in full tack.  I think he reckons that full tack is for 'sploring and having fun in and he is too grown up now to lunge!!!  !!)


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## fattylumpkin (23 September 2015)

cobgoblin said:



			Could give a whole new meaning to ' ***** a br**k' !
		
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That made my day!!!  Hahaha!


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## wench (23 September 2015)

pennyturner said:



			I can honestly say that my ponies enjoy being ridden.  They're out in 12 acres, in a big herd, and come right over to be caught, knowing that they are going out, despite never receiving any food reward.  The ones who get left behind tend to stare after us wistfully.

... but then we are hacking out, not going round and round in a boring school.
		
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Schooling shouldn't just be about going around in "boring" circles. If it's boring, your doing something wrong...


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## Sukistokes2 (23 September 2015)

I don't think it does harm to question our intentions and motivations at times, I for one do not think I am cruel to my animals. However, I can see there is room to cause harm without meaning too, for example ill fitting tack. However while I do my best to cause no harm , there are those out there who treat animals as property not living beings. They give fuel to this nonsense. My horses gain from our relationship, they live easy well cared for lives, in the wild my boy would have been eaten by wolves years ago. I also gain through my association with them, it's kinda like a symbiotic relationship really.


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## silv (23 September 2015)

Cortez said:



			I used to work for a lady who apologised to the lettuce before she ate it.........and also only ate windfall fruits. Very nice lady, but a bit, um, impractical shall we say?
		
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Ha Ha, that is hilarious!


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## Dave the dog (25 September 2015)

oldie48 said:



			In a word, No! If I thought it was I wouldn't do it. Taking the vegan position that no animal should be used for personal gain, we wouldn't have horses, pigs, cows, sheep, goats etc except for those in the wild.This would give us the interesting problem of how we would manage our countryside as lots of it isn't suitable for arable use. It's interesting, isn't it that man's development started when we moved from the forest where we foraged fruit and nuts to the coast where we started to catch and eat fish, giving us enough protein to survive with time to spare to do other things. As far as I'm concerned, if vegans don't think it's OK to ride, that's fine with me. Each to his/her own but not not for me!
		
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Wouldn't be any wild Domesticated animals they would be in zoo's which of course are cruel in their own right. And I'm afraid i have a strong aversion to vegan.
 I used to think that the most effective way to make a beautiful animal ugly, was to give it another arse. But wait, I have dogs and chooks! I became enlightened and discovered that horses are anxious to please their monkey masters and actually enjoy roaming around the countryside, they get a bang out of leaping obstacles. and, just like any other fit and well nourished creature revel in their own athleticism. 
  Horses have molded our culture and our language since before the wheel. Hats off to the aforesaid behinds that persist in loving, caring, understanding, educating and preserving one of our oldest friends, That most noble vegetarian, The Horse!


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## MagicMelon (25 September 2015)

I haven't read the article (will do later) but I also think quite a lot about the ethics of riding even though I've ridden and had horses since very young.  I think riding horses CAN be cruel but it very very much depends on the owner/rider.  Personally I like to think I don't hit or force my horses to do things, I don't demand the do certain stuff but I work with them to get their confidence up enough to do it. I absolutely hate seeing horses beated up in the ring for refusing to jump for example, something has clearly gone wrong in the training yet the horse is getting the blame. It's very easy to turn a horse against you, but if you keep them working happily then I actually believe most really rather enjoy it.  As long as its not caused by force. My current horse for example, I have never carried a whip on because I just don't use it and it would worry me if I ever felt I did need it.  I took her to her first BE event the other day, with very limited XC experience yet she took me round that course so willingly and she got so much fuss for that which she thrives on. I also disagree with some of the nasty bits, nosebands, odd tack so often seen as common place.  So many horses seem unhappy with their riders choice of tack and yet the rider is blind to it.  I'm not saying mine are 100% in love with their tack but I try my hardest to make everything as comfy as possible for them.


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## marmalade76 (25 September 2015)

In answer to the title of this thread I would say that depends entirely on the rider!


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## marmalade76 (25 September 2015)

annagain said:



			I haven't read the article, but am aware of the vegan view that no animal should be used for humans' gain. That would also mean that we shouldn't have cats and dogs (or any animal for that matter) as pets as we gain from that relationship. Seeing as they've been domesticated for hundreds of thousands of years, they'd struggle a bit if we suddenly turfed them out to fend for themselves. 

Regardless of the rights and wrongs, we've created a world for them where they rely on us, so we have to see that through. If we take pleasure from that in return (either from pets or from riding horses) I don't see a problem with that as long as they're not mistreated.
		
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I read a book once about domestication and it said that certain animals allowed themselves to be domesticated because it suited them and this is why not all animals have been domesticated successfully, ie why do Africans not ride zebras? Humans offered food, shelter and protection from predators, and I believe in the case of dogs at least, companionship.


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## EquestrianEllie01 (25 September 2015)

marmalade76 said:



			I read a book once about domestication and it said that certain animals allowed themselves to be domesticated because it suited them and this is why not all animals have been domesticated successfully, ie why do Africans not ride zebras? Humans offered food, shelter and protection from predators, and I believe in the case of dogs at least, companionship.
		
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I never thought about it like that. I will look into  that more later.


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## Kezzabell2 (25 September 2015)

Cortez said:



			Is horse riding cruel? No, not particularly. It's also not what a horse would choose to do with its time if given the choice, but I'm OK with that.
		
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I wouldn't chose to come to work with my time, but I have to!!  Therefore if what these vegans are saying is true, it must be cruel to make me work!?

I haven't read the article but I don't think its cruel, if the horse has well fitting tack and is treated well by its owners!

There are some cruel people in this world and I do feel sorry for some horses that I see but I don't think riding a horse is curel generally!

Plus if they didn't like it, they'd soon let us know


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## LilacWillow (26 September 2015)

Sounds stupid... But one thing I never understood with vegetarians/vegans is that if they own pet dogs or cats, do they feed them meat or some weird veggie diet? And then, wouldn't it be 'cruel' for those animals never to have meat? Wouldn't it be for the vegans own gain to make their dog eat veg instead of its natural diet? Wouldn't it be for their own gain to allow animals to be slaughtered so their pet can eat meaty dog food?


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## Leo Walker (26 September 2015)

Sukistokes2 said:



			My horses gain from our relationship
		
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This exactly! I feel confident saying that mine gains from being my horse and genuinely enjoys being ridden


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## hackneylass2 (26 September 2015)

As soon a I read Nezvorov I gave up! He is one crazy character indeed. Treat by some as a cultish figure - his online 'school' is private and those not following his path are called 'Slavers'  Look him up!

I should think most vegans drive a car and doubt if there is 100% vegan friendly car made!.

I think vegans are a tad strange. Although they are well meaning souls on the whole, they just cannot see the bigger picture.


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## EquestrianEllie01 (26 September 2015)

LilacWillow said:



			Sounds stupid... But one thing I never understood with vegetarians/vegans is that if they own pet dogs or cats, do they feed them meat or some weird veggie diet? And then, wouldn't it be 'cruel' for those animals never to have meat? Wouldn't it be for the vegans own gain to make their dog eat veg instead of its natural diet? Wouldn't it be for their own gain to allow animals to be slaughtered so their pet can eat meaty dog food?
		
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That's a really good point. I'm veggie, yet I feed my dogs meat. I never thought of it as benefiting me, just that they needed it. Although I do know one woman who has her dog on a vegan diet!!!!


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## Meowy Catkin (26 September 2015)

Cats are obligate carnivores, so having a pet cat and having it on a vegan diet would result in its death due to nutritional deficiencies and it wouldn't be a nice way to go either.


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## Speedyfluff (26 September 2015)

I think everyone should do what makes them feel comfortable with themselves. If you feel guilty eating meat, then don't. If you feel guilty eating other animal products, then don't. We must all find a level at which we are comfortable with ourselves. The worst thing to do IMO is bash those for doing what you don't agree with. That includes vegetarians trying to make others feel bad for eating meat, but also includes the vegan bashing going on in this thread. Just do what you are happy with, what ever that may be and stop trying to mock others for their beliefs.


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## _Annie_ (26 September 2015)

I've not ploughed through the article yet, it's the weekend!   Just wanted to say, I'm vegan & not mad, we do exist!


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## Speedyfluff (26 September 2015)

_Annie_ said:



			I've not ploughed through the article yet, it's the weekend!   Just wanted to say, I'm vegan & not mad, we do exist!
		
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I know several vegans, and none of them are mad! I am a vegetarian, but never try to make others feel bad for eating meat. I gave it up to make myself feel more comfortable with myself. But each to his own. I don't think it is fair for people to criticise others for what they choose to eat (or not eat). Being a vegan takes one hell of a lot of dedication and self denial, and I admire that. I wouldn't be able to do it. I also know two people who do it for health reasons, not moral reasons. It can be highly beneficial for some health conditions.


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## Sukistokes2 (26 September 2015)

Speedyfluff said:



			I think everyone should do what makes them feel comfortable with themselves. If you feel guilty eating meat, then don't. If you feel guilty eating other animal products, then don't. We must all find a level at which we are comfortable with ourselves. The worst thing to do IMO is bash those for doing what you don't agree with. That includes vegetarians trying to make others feel bad for eating meat, but also includes the vegan bashing going on in this thread. Just do what you are happy with, what ever that may be and stop trying to mock others for their beliefs.
		
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This^^^^
Very well put!!

I am a veggie, I eat or use what I want. I don't push my views on to anyone including my dog.  I have friends who are vegan they are no different to anyone on here they just do not wish to eat or use animal products.


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## fattylumpkin (26 September 2015)

If there has been any bashing then it hasn't been generalized at all vegans, only directed at this one particular woman who feels the need to air an opinon that demonizes anyone involved with riding horses.  If you read the article and watch the video, she is making the argument that it is virtually impossible to ride a horse without causing permanent impairment and pain, and goes on to remind people there are other 'activities' with horses that don't involve riding.  Ergo, we riders are either ignorant of the damage we're causing, or don't care so long as we get to enjoy ourselves.  So this is one instance where I'm happy to forget being nice.


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## catkin (26 September 2015)

fattylumpkin said:



			If there has been any bashing then it hasn't been generalized at all vegans, only directed at this one particular woman who feels the need to air an opinon that demonizes anyone involved with riding horses.  If you read the article and watch the video, she is making the argument that it is virtually impossible to ride a horse without causing permanent impairment and pain, and goes on to remind people there are other 'activities' with horses that don't involve riding.  Ergo, we riders are either ignorant of the damage we're causing, or don't care so long as we get to enjoy ourselves.  So this is one instance where I'm happy to forget being nice.
		
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Err, I have a sheltie who I exercise by taking for walks. As those walks invariably involve in part going onto roads/tracks where the pony needs to be kept at close control (just the same a dog) walking is going to involve some sort of tack or gear, training to commands etc - whats the difference between that and riding well in gear that fits?


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## Makemineacob (26 September 2015)

LilacWillow said:



			Sounds stupid... But one thing I never understood with vegetarians/vegans is that if they own pet dogs or cats, do they feed them meat or some weird veggie diet? And then, wouldn't it be 'cruel' for those animals never to have meat? Wouldn't it be for the vegans own gain to make their dog eat veg instead of its natural diet? Wouldn't it be for their own gain to allow animals to be slaughtered so their pet can eat meaty dog food?
		
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Really?? People actually do this??  I'm a veggie and I have animals who have meat as their main part of their diet, I choose to be a veggie as I don't like the taste of meat or the thought of eating it myself. I certainly wouldn't change the diet of my animals who are carnivores naturally to eat a vegetarian style diet - that surely is an irresponsible thing to do, surely the basis of good pet ownership is to provide a diet that is close enough to their natural diet as we can??


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## aintgotnohay (26 September 2015)

sometimes people object to certain issues regarding  so-called animal cruelty.for example someone might object to wearing fur and how the animals are kept,farmed and killed yet they are quite happy to use dairy products which another person may object to as they think dairy farming is cruel.the list is endless and we are generally a nation of hypocrites regarding animal cruelty.


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## aintgotnohay (26 September 2015)

Makemineacob said:



			Really?? People actually do this??  I'm a veggie and I have animals who have meat as their main part of their diet, I choose to be a veggie as I don't like the taste of meat or the thought of eating it myself. I certainly wouldn't change the diet of my animals who are carnivores naturally to eat a vegetarian style diet - that surely is an irresponsible thing to do, surely the basis of good pet ownership is to provide a diet that is close enough to their natural diet as we can??
		
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there is actual facebook pages of groups about people who feed their dogs vegan and vegetarian diets.


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## cobgoblin (26 September 2015)

I'm not even sure my horse is a vegan. I reckon he'd quaff a bacon sandwich with relish!


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## Fellewell (26 September 2015)

Faracat said:



			Cats are obligate carnivores, so having a pet cat and having it on a vegan diet would result in its death due to nutritional deficiencies and it wouldn't be a nice way to go either.
		
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Oh I wouldn't worry. Cats might humour their vegan owners indoors, but once they're through the cat-flap and amongst the birds and rodents those mittens are coming off!


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## Makemineacob (26 September 2015)

aintgotnohay said:



			there is actual facebook pages of groups about people who feed their dogs vegan and vegetarian diets.
		
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Wow, I must live a sheltered life (I don't do Facebook etc), I wonder what makes people think that is better than what nature intended? It seriously can't be healthy!! Are they feeding their animals supplements and extra minerals etc I wonder as being a veggie does mean making sure you don't miss out on essential things (iron etc).


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## angelish (26 September 2015)

Depends on the person doing he "riding"


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