# Hidden Cleveland Bay mare - Open Letter to Editor



## Rollin (24 June 2018)

Dear Editor,

I am pleased to see your article highlighting the continued plight of the Cleveland Bay and exhorting mare owners to put their mares in foal.  However,  other rare breeds have seen a dramatic drop in new registrations, Shagya Arab registrations in France have dropped from 75 to 45 foals per annum over five years.  

The message we fail to get across is to buy a Cleveland Bay because they are really talented all rounders not just because they are rare.  It is also very important that owners of Cleveland Bay mares, who may not be members of CBHS understand the implications of in-breeding.  CBHS has a selected mating system, conceived by Dr. Andy Dell in which they can see at a glance which stallions would be good mates, in order to avoid in breeding and which matings would be inadvisable. At RaceRare we only breed from complaint matings and will continue to so do.

It is important to know WHY mare owners do not breed from their mares, then it might be possible to offer a solution.  

I have owned 7 pure and 2 part-bred mares and fillies over the past decade but have not bred a Cleveland Bay foal for two years, even though we own a pure-bred stallion.  We do not breed foals if we do not have the space to run them on for three years and MOST important the time and money to offer for sale  a really useful horse, one which will give pleasure to a new owner.  This is a big commitment in time and money.  The value of a backed or ready to back pure bred Cleveland Bay, in no way covers the cost of producing the young horse.  We are retired and not dependent on the income.

We have produced three pure bred and two part-bred fillies in France, two fillies have been sold to the UK in the past year which means we will breed one of our mares next spring.  Fillies are more saleable than colts, currently there are a number of quality colts for sale in the UK.  For mare owners with limited land, or with mares at livery, this is a tough choice, what is the solution for these mare owners if they find themselves with a colt they cannot sell? Tom Blunt RBST says exactly this in your article. This is about responsible breeding.

Yours faithfully, 

RaceRare Cleveland Bay and Shagya Arabian Horses
Pays de la Loire, France


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## honetpot (24 June 2018)

This happening to a lot of pure breeds especially the rarer natives or large horses. If you do not have access to large areas of cheap grassland and winter housing you have now where to run them on and everyone is so worried that they can not cover the costs of producing them. Apart from the dressage market where everyone buying seems to expect to pay thousands no one wants to pay over a £1000 for a foal and that value will probably stick until its four and backed.
https://www.rbst.org.uk/news/danger-list-2018
People kept going on about responsible breeding, when really the irresponsible just kept going and the responsible stopped producing the few quality animals they did breed, and when they tried to sell what they had they had already bred they were told, 'its not worth that because of overbreeding'
  In the end we will end up perhaps with the equivalent of a national park/zoo with all the rare breeds kept there


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## Rollin (24 June 2018)

honetpot said:



			This happening to a lot of pure breeds especially the rarer natives or large horses. If you do not have access to large areas of cheap grassland and winter housing you have now where to run them on and everyone is so worried that they can not cover the costs of producing them. Apart from the dressage market where everyone buying seems to expect to pay thousands no one wants to pay over a £1000 for a foal and that value will probably stick until its four and backed.
https://www.rbst.org.uk/news/danger-list-2018
People kept going on about responsible breeding, when really the irresponsible just kept going and the responsible stopped producing the few quality animals they did breed, and when they tried to sell what they had they had already bred they were told, 'its not worth that because of overbreeding'
  In the end we will end up perhaps with the equivalent of a national park/zoo with all the rare breeds kept there
		
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This exactly.  You can buy a TB or a French Trotter for meat money.  We meet a man on the SJ circuit in France, who buys TB's from the butcher.  If they jump he trains them, if not they go for slaughter, a small risk for him.


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## texascbs (26 June 2018)

The article is super publicity for the breed and other heritage breeds.   Perhaps H&H could run a follow up with a photo of a CB pair and what is happening in other countries to promote rare and heritage breeds like Cleveland Bays, Shires, Suffolks, etc.


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## Keith_Beef (26 June 2018)

Should "complaint matings" be "compl*ia*nt matings"?


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## Rollin (27 June 2018)

Keith_Beef said:



			Should "complaint matings" be "compl*ia*nt matings"?
		
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Yes.  Never lost my touch typing speed and spell check does not pick up Compliant versus Complaint.  Well spotted.


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## Rollin (1 July 2018)

texascbs said:



			The article is super publicity for the breed and other heritage breeds.   Perhaps H&H could run a follow up with a photo of a CB pair and what is happening in other countries to promote rare and heritage breeds like Cleveland Bays, Shires, Suffolks, etc.
		
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You are right, a lot to learn from conservation projects in other countries.  One difference is that, for example, France has a National Stud with lots of experts to help and support rare breeds, as was the case with the French Merens which was actively supported by the National Stud until numbers recovered.  The UK has individual breed societies,  Ministry of Agriculture, with responsibility for cows, pigs and sheep as well as horses.


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## popsdosh (1 July 2018)

Ministry has no involvement in the breeding of any animal or should I say ,what is bred.  There is a saying in farming that Rare breeds are rare for a reason!  In the horse world this is even more pronounced and in the UK there is only one Breed Society that is flourishing as such and thats TB because of its economic superiority. You could most likely make a case for the Welsh ,however thats it.  The rest are confined to insignificance as in the horse world in general these days pure bred competition horses are a rarity and you dont need the pure breds to replicate the crosses. Within europe a closed studbook is a very rare occurrence and we have followed the trend.


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## texascbs (1 July 2018)

Yes Popsdosh, purebreds/heritage breeds will never have huge numbers. Many of the purebred societies in the UK were founded when the breeds were already on the decline.  The key is to find a niche they will excel and try not to over sale them.  For example, a purebred will never win Badminton, but a pure or 3/4 bred could do very well up to a one star.  They are great family and regional level show horses.  Emphasize their strengths.   I compete with purebreds in the USA in endurance.  No we will never win, but my goal is to accumulate miles, have a safe ride, and pass the vet checks.   They do that well for me.  It sort of like tennis.  We all are not going to compete at Wimbledon, but many of us have a great time in league and club level competition and recreation.   It is us at the lower levels who keep the sport alive.


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## Rowreach (1 July 2018)

texascbs said:



			Yes Popsdosh, purebreds/heritage breeds will never have huge numbers. Many of the purebred societies in the UK were founded when the breeds were already on the decline.  The key is to find a niche they will excel and try not to over sale them.  For example, a purebred will never win Badminton, but a pure or 3/4 bred could do very well up to a one star.  They are great family and regional level show horses.  Emphasize their strengths.   I compete with purebreds in the USA in endurance.  No we will never win, but my goal is to accumulate miles, have a safe ride, and pass the vet checks.   They do that well for me.  It sort of like tennis.  We all are not going to compete at Wimbledon, but many of us have a great time in league and club level competition and recreation.   It is us at the lower levels who keep the sport alive.
		
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My accidental Cleveland Bay purchase (hunter/eventer bought unseen from the field for £800, reduced from £4k because he bogged off with everyone who tried him) turned out to be the best all round horse I ever had.  

Rollin - Point me in the direction of all those quality CB colts - I might be tempted!


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## Magnetic Sparrow (1 July 2018)

I normally go to http://www.clevelandbay.com/for-sale and drool. Can't really justify another CB, but I love them.


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## texascbs (1 July 2018)

texascbs said:



			Yes Popsdosh, purebreds/heritage breeds will never have huge numbers. Many of the purebred societies in the UK were founded when the breeds were already on the decline.  The key is to find a niche they will excel and try not to over sell them.  For example, a purebred will never win Badminton, but a pure or 3/4 bred could do very well up to a one star.  They are great family and regional level show horses.  Emphasize their strengths.   I compete with purebreds in the USA in endurance.  No we will never win, but my goal is to accumulate miles, have a safe ride, and pass the vet checks.   They do that well for me.  It sort of like tennis.  We all are not going to compete at Wimbledon, but many of us have a great time in league and club level competition and recreation.   It is us at the lower levels who keep the sport alive.
		
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Corrected my spellings.  Yes many CBs get a bad reputation because of poor or uneducated training.   There are many CB colts for sale on FB and if you are in the UK the CBHS website.


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## Rowreach (1 July 2018)

Magnetic Sparrow said:



			I normally go to http://www.clevelandbay.com/for-sale and drool. Can't really justify another CB, but I love them.
		
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Well that was a bad idea   Probably just as well they are too far away to go and look.  Rather a lot of POAs and a £6,500 price tag for a colt foal might make them a little out of my league ....


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## Magnetic Sparrow (1 July 2018)

Rowreach said:



			Well that was a bad idea   Probably just as well they are too far away to go and look.  Rather a lot of POAs and a £6,500 price tag for a colt foal might make them a little out of my league ....
		
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Oh wow. £6500 is WAY higher than normal.


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## texascbs (1 July 2018)

POAs drive me nuts.  I remember a USA breeder went visiting UK farms in the early 2000s.  She had lunch with several UK breeders and one said that she always marks the price up with an American breeder is looking.  Folks here in the States had suspected this type of pricing, but it was depressing to hear it said out loud.


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## Rowreach (1 July 2018)

There were a couple on there that wanted their colts to go to a breeding home - I think that is rather unrealistic tbh, and certainly restricts your market when there are far more people wanting decent quality allrounder riding horse prospects than a potential stallion.  If you think your colt is good enough to breed from, produce him properly yourself and go from there.


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## Rollin (2 July 2018)

Rowreach said:



			There were a couple on there that wanted their colts to go to a breeding home - I think that is rather unrealistic tbh, and certainly restricts your market when there are far more people wanting decent quality allrounder riding horse prospects than a potential stallion.  If you think your colt is good enough to breed from, produce him properly yourself and go from there.
		
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  I agree.  Most breeders want fillies, we have bred ALL fillies save for one pure-bred colt, who we lost.  I had plans to have him produced and graded.

Please contact Cholderton Stud Hampshire. They had three colts for sale last year at very reasonable prices, since I promoted them on my FB page I think two were sold.  Henry Edmunds is third generation breeder, many of his horses go to the Royal Mews.


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## Ddraig_wen (2 July 2018)

I'd love another Cleveland. I miss my old girl and I miss riding them. Sadly when I can get a 3 year old or older for the price of a foal (even a colt foal) I can't justify it.   I was offered a mare for a reasonable price but while looking for a horse to be my main ride I didn't really want to buy a mare in her 20s who'd never been backed and couldn't justify  3k for a colt foal.

I really hope I do get another CB one day though


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## Rollin (2 July 2018)

Ddraig_wen said:



			I'd love another Cleveland. I miss my old girl and I miss riding them. Sadly when I can get a 3 year old or older for the price of a foal (even a colt foal) I can't justify it.   I was offered a mare for a reasonable price but while looking for a horse to be my main ride I didn't really want to buy a mare in her 20s who'd never been backed and couldn't justify  3k for a colt foal.

I really hope I do get another CB one day though
		
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I advertised my 2 year old on my website but withdrew her from FB.  So she stayed there for 6 months then I had an enquiry, I did not feel I could increase her price although now a 3 year old.  I sold her for £2,500 and we took her to the UK , cost the buyer about £700 for including, ferry and motorway tolls.  Both parents are QA and both grandsires QA, one being  King Georg V cup winner.  For us the most important thing was an experienced home and an owner who would do something with her.  The new owner is delighted with her purchase,  especially as she plans to hunt her and the filly jumped out of her field shortly after arrival - the hedge is OK though.


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## Ddraig_wen (2 July 2018)

Rollin said:



			I advertised my 2 year old on my website but withdrew her from FB.  So she stayed there for 6 months then I had an enquiry, I did not feel I could increase her price although now a 3 year old.  I sold her for £2,500 and we took her to the UK , cost the buyer about £700 for including, ferry and motorway tolls.  Both parents are QA and both grandsires QA, one being  King Georg V cup winner.  For us the most important thing was an experienced home and an owner who would do something with her.  The new owner is delighted with her purchase,  especially as she plans to hunt her and the filly jumped out of her field shortly after arrival - the hedge is OK though.
		
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Wish I'd found an advert like yours. When I was looking I couldn't find anything of that age in that price bracket


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