# Hunts woman hits proteste



## asmp (21 November 2017)

This is doing the rounds in the newspapers this morning.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ed-protesters-anti-hunt-confrontation-caught/

I think if anyone grabbed my horse's reins, whether out hunting or hacking I'm pretty sure I would hit them with my whip too.

(P.s. Why can't you edit headings?)


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## OrangeAndLemon (21 November 2017)

I watched the longer footage on the metro and they claim she was trying to ride down the sab but you can see the sab on the outside of a spinning horse (the perfect opportunity to run away if he really was being attacked) but instead he runs towards the horse with his hands up trying to grab the reins. He then holds on and pulls on the horses mouth which, for me, is unforgivable. 

I suspect the sabs (they claim to be monitors but if they had no malicious intent, why were they covering their faces with balaclavas) were trespassing. 

Really though, why did the woman ride over and get involved. It created a flashpoint in which no one comes out looking good. The foot supporters were doing a good job of keeping the sabs away and out of danger, they should have been left to it. There was no need to ride towards the sabs and antagonise them.


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## Auslander (21 November 2017)

I think she lost her temper and overstepped the mark by a long way. I don't support what the antis do in any way, shape or form, and I certainly don't think it's ok that they grabbed her reins, but it turned my stomach watching her beat another human being with a whip. They both behaved disgracefully.


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## Sussexbythesea (21 November 2017)

Id absolutely wallop someone if they grabbed my horses reins in a threatening way but Im unsure as to whether in this case it was to stop her riding at them so they were defending themselves? Not seen whole video so cant say.


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## ponyparty (21 November 2017)

I read somewhere (unverified as to whether this is true) that before the film starts the sab punches her horse. I'm sure it said he did something else as well, can't remember what now. This is all just what I've read on various Facebook threads - I wasn't there, so have no idea really. 
Why would he not just let go and get out of the way though?! He was clearly antagonising her. 
But yeah does not make for pleasant viewing at all. No doubt will be seized upon (already is) by the anti brigade and used as "proof" that all people who hunt are violent. Sigh.


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## Antw23uk (21 November 2017)

I think both are to blame, both are at fault and both should be very ashamed of themselves BUT we have only seen a glimpse of what was really going on so can only judge on what we have seen/ heard. Im biased, I back the rider because although I wouldnt have put my horse in that situation in the first place I would have reacted the same had he grabbed my horse!

Riding away and laughing at these morons is better than trying to argue with them. You cant cure or argue with stupid!


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## BeckyFlowers (21 November 2017)

http://metro.co.uk/2017/11/21/hunt-...mashed-by-masked-people-on-quad-bike-7095150/


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## Seville (21 November 2017)

I'd have hit him as well if he or anyone, grabbed my horse in that manner.


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## asmp (21 November 2017)

OrangeAndLemon said:



			I watched the longer footage on the metro and they claim she was trying to ride down the sab but you can see the sab on the outside of a spinning horse (the perfect opportunity to run away if he really was being attacked) but instead he runs towards the horse with his hands up trying to grab the reins. He then holds on and pulls on the horses mouth which, for me, is unforgivable. 

I suspect the sabs (they claim to be monitors but if they had no malicious intent, why were they covering their faces with balaclavas) were trespassing. 

Really though, why did the woman ride over and get involved. It created a flashpoint in which no one comes out looking good. The foot supporters were doing a good job of keeping the sabs away and out of danger, they should have been left to it. There was no need to ride towards the sabs and antagonise them.
		
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Interesting point that I didn't see the whole picture from the Telegraph.  If she did ride over to confront them then that was rather foolish.


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## Abi90 (21 November 2017)

I agree with the sentiment that both should be ashamed of their actions.

It has always baffled me though, how people can say they are all about keeping tabs on animal welfare when it comes to fox hunting but are perfectly happy to hurt the horses! Surely that is not a love of animals


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## Asha (21 November 2017)

Firstly, from what  understand the sabs where trespassing, what gives these people the right to go on private property ?

They grabbed her reins, which if someone did that to me, I'm guessing id either be very angry or pretty scared. perhaps a mix of both. How would I react in a situation like that ? I guess id want to protect myself and my horses and more than likely lash out too in self defence. especially as these sabs seem to have taken the law into their own hands by trespassing in the first place, my concern would be what else would they do ?


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## Goldenstar (21 November 2017)

The sab was a trespasser .
Why she went over I don't know perhaps it was her land .
He easily could have prevented being hit by letting go of her reins .


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## MagicMelon (21 November 2017)

Difficult to judge what happened before that part of the clip, but from that short piece of footage - I would say that I am very much an anti however I dont agree with sabs going out to cause harm especially to other animals - grabbing the reins is unacceptable and Id probably have smacked him once to get him off however to lay into him like that is ridiculous. I also think the rider was doing a great job of yanking her own horse in the mouth several times... and seemingly either being out of control or pretending to be but if she were thinking of her horse then surely she'd want him out of the way of harm.

The fact he was trespassing or not really has no relevence here IMO. Im pretty sure you're not allowed to go pelting a trespasser on your land with a whip repeatedly... She shouldn't have approached the sab at the end of the day if she didnt want trouble or to possibly risk her horse.

Edited - just seen the longer video on The Sun website, she very clearly is threatening the man by riding at him. He probably felt he had to grab onto the horse as it was somewhat safer to try and control the horse himself. Her riding is appaling of the poor horse, booting him with spurs, yanking him in the mouth. Horrid woman.


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## Spiritedly (21 November 2017)

In the longer video she is heard telling them to get back to the road and you can see in a field behind her the rest of the hunt so I'm not sure if she was trying to move the sabs from the path the hunt was meant to be following.


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## ponyparty (21 November 2017)

MagicMelon said:



			grabbing the reins is unacceptable and Id probably have smacked him once to get him off
		
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But he didn't get off, did he? That's the point. If he'd let go, and moved away, she would (one would hope) have stopped hitting him...

It is impossible for any of us to know what really went on, unless we were there. Both sides appear to be in the wrong to some extent. Not pleasant viewing at all


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## Judgemental (21 November 2017)

Spiritedly said:



			In the longer video she is heard telling them to get back to the road and you can see in a field behind her the rest of the hunt so I'm not sure if she was trying to move the sabs from the path the hunt was meant to be following.
		
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In the event anybody so much as touches a British police horse whilst on duty, at say a football match or elsewhere, they will be summarily 'whacked' with a nightstick. I.e the long batons that officers carry. To grab the reins would be a criminal offence.

In my opinion the originating individual on the ground, put the rider and horse in danger.

I have been in exactly that situation and it is extremely alarming.

My advice, never ever get within striking distance of any saboteurs, because some have a strip of leather sewn into the inside of the neck of their boots. Into which they can slip a ladies hat pin. When they are stopped and searched by the police, remarkably the hat pin or the place is secreted, is never found!


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## southerncomfort (21 November 2017)

I think regardless of who was to blame hitting someone with a whip is assault.  She lost her temper and lost control of herself.  I don't doubt for a minute that I'd have been tempted to wallop him one too, but you just can't do that.  There are penalties to be paid for hitting someone.


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## MagicMelon (21 November 2017)

But the thing is, the woman clearly rides at the man several times not leaving him alone before he's made any attempt to grab the reins / touch the horse - in the video she clearly means it and at one point he very nearly trips under the horse. From that footage I would absolutely say the rider caused it and was putting the guy in danger in the first place, then he reacted accordingly.


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## ponyparty (21 November 2017)

But we don't know what happened before that! I have definitely read on FB that before the filming started, he punched the horse in the face and did something else, I can't remember what now and don't have time to trawl back through all the comment. I think perhaps it was something to do with the children in the field, attempting to pull them off ponies or spook their ponies? I can't remember. Anyway, I have no way of knowing if that is true - but IF it were (or he had done something else similarly heinous) then in my view it would most definintely have been HIM at fault, and not her. 

There's no point speculating I guess. As I said above, we can't possibly know what actually happened unless we were there at the time.


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## Judgemental (21 November 2017)

southerncomfort said:



			I think regardless of who was to blame hitting someone with a whip is assault.  She lost her temper and lost control of herself.  I don't doubt for a minute that I'd have been tempted to wallop him one too, but you just can't do that.  There are penalties to be paid for hitting someone.
		
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The law is such that the lady rider was well within her rights to defend her horse. I stress horse. No matter what happened or indeed the causation, once the saboteur took hold of the reins, they were at fault. 

If this goes to court I am sure I will be proved to be correct. 

Technically under all sorts of old established historical laws, the individual was trying to steal the horse.


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## MagicMelon (21 November 2017)

Judgemental said:



			The law is such that the lady rider was well within her rights to defend her horse. I stress horse. No matter what happened or indeed the causation, once the saboteur took hold of the reins, they were at fault. 
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No, by law the man also has a right to protect himself!  And as we know in law, a human will always come before an animal (whether thats right or wrong). 

We can't tell what has happened before, we can only judge based on the video online. Of course it would be different if he had punched the horse - however, yet again I would say that if that were true if she was any type of genuine horse lover she would have cantered off in the other direction! Id never ever put my horse at risk like that, I certainly would not turn round and then start tying to run my horse into the man who had done it - thats insane.


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## cobgoblin (21 November 2017)

There is a longer clip on YouTube 

https://youtu.be/FhHi8Yh1_5o

The Metro clip is very edited.


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## Hexx (21 November 2017)

I was quite surprised reading the comments section following this article - a lot of support for the lady for defending herself and her horse.  Although I think she was excessive in her actions, I would have probably done the same thing if someone had grabbed my horse.

One of the comments asked whether the article would have read differently if the headline had been "woman defends herself from attack" - which is really what she was doing.  

I just find it incredible that the police do not come down harder on these people - regardless of what you feel about hunting - the fact that men and women can trespass on property with their faces covered by a balaclava and not be dealt with by the police seems totally wrong.  If that person was to walk down a London street, dressed in black with a balaclava on, you could bet they would be swamped by police.


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## ponyparty (21 November 2017)

Hexx said:



			I just find it incredible that the police do not come down harder on these people - regardless of what you feel about hunting - the fact that men and women can trespass on property with their faces covered by a balaclava and not be dealt with by the police seems totally wrong.  If that person was to walk down a London street, dressed in black with a balaclava on, you could bet they would be swamped by police.
		
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Cannot agree more!


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## Judgemental (21 November 2017)

MagicMelon said:



			No, by law the man also has a right to protect himself!  And as we know in law, a human will always come before an animal (whether thats right or wrong). 

We can't tell what has happened before, we can only judge based on the video online. Of course it would be different if he had punched the horse - however, yet again I would say that if that were true if she was any type of genuine horse lover she would have cantered off in the other direction! Id never ever put my horse at risk like that, I certainly would not turn round and then start tying to run my horse into the man who had done it - thats insane.
		
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The old established law of horses and pedestrians puts the horse first and the safety of the rider first. As with horses and motor vehicles.

Bet the police (Crown Prosecution Service) take no action against the rider because Counsel for the rider will 'trot out' a whole variety of laws and precedents going back 'donkey's years', giving the rider the perfect right to dispense a summary defence when they are put at risk. (A few puns for good measure) 

The laws were established in the 1800's 

Allow me to revert to my earlier post in connection with police horses. They are used to herd crowds and the public must not touch the horse. 

The lady rider was perfectly within her right to herd the saboteur off her land, under old established laws, that are seldom used but they are still on the statute.

Counsel would have a 'field day' on the subject.


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## Asha (21 November 2017)

Hexx said:



			One of the comments asked whether the article would have read differently if the headline had been "woman defends herself from attack" - which is really what she was doing.  

I just find it incredible that the police do not come down harder on these people - regardless of what you feel about hunting - the fact that men and women can trespass on property with their faces covered by a balaclava and not be dealt with by the police seems totally wrong.  If that person was to walk down a London street, dressed in black with a balaclava on, you could bet they would be swamped by police.
		
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totally agree ^^^.Put yourself in the same situation. Someone trespassing - already breaking the law, therefore in my opinion shows no regard for the law, dressed in balaclava grabs your reins.  You'd be pretty scared. You would probably do something out of character to defend yourself.


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## ester (21 November 2017)

Tempers seem to run very high on both sides when this sort of thing happens, understandably so and I think people then make poor judgements. 

I would like to know why she decided to continue to engage with them, given that the rest of the field other than the chap and the terriermen/footfollowers seemed to be well out the way at this point. They want a fight, and they want footage, why give them what they want.


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## MagicMelon (21 November 2017)

Hexx said:



			I just find it incredible that the police do not come down harder on these people - regardless of what you feel about hunting - the fact that men and women can trespass on property with their faces covered by a balaclava and not be dealt with by the police seems totally wrong.  If that person was to walk down a London street, dressed in black with a balaclava on, you could bet they would be swamped by police.
		
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I dont want to open a can of worms here, but I imagine the sabs arguement would be that they cant believe the police dont do more to stop illegal hunting which is still continuing in many hunts... I guess they feel they have to take the law into their own hands to a degree.  I dont support either - both are very much in the wrong. I do believe that hunts need closely monitoring though, but not by people like this.


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## mle22 (21 November 2017)

How anyone watching that clip can defend that woman is beyond me!


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## Cecile (21 November 2017)

ester said:



			Tempers seem to run very high on both sides when this sort of thing happens, understandably so and I think people then make poor judgements. 

I would like to know why she decided to continue to engage with them, given that the rest of the field other than the chap and the terriermen/footfollowers seemed to be well out the way at this point. They want a fight, and they want footage, why give them what they want.
		
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I agree ^^

Trespass is a civil matter and even on a PRoW if someone is causing a disturbance to the landowner within law you may use reasonable force to remove them but what is reasonable force, doubt its keep trying to run them down with a horse whilst waving a whip.
If you are easily goaded then keep away, keep your cool, don't respond and let anyone get footage of you acting like a mad person, why hand over what they want? They now have the footage that they wanted so happy days for them...
The rest of the field didn't even come to help her or her horse, if a loan woman was surrounded by people and she was using force to keep them at bay in any reasonable situation I would expect the people I was with to come to the rescue, obviously they didn't wish to get involved and at any time she could of just ridden off and taken herself completely out of that situation. 
They didn't even try to upset the other rider as he remained calm and non reactive

She gave them what they came for and for now its big news


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## fburton (21 November 2017)

If they were indeed horrible, common, filthy scum, they deserved everything they got.


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## ihatework (21 November 2017)

ester said:



			Tempers seem to run very high on both sides when this sort of thing happens, understandably so and I think people then make poor judgements. 

I would like to know why she decided to continue to engage with them, given that the rest of the field other than the chap and the terriermen/footfollowers seemed to be well out the way at this point. They want a fight, and they want footage, why give them what they want.
		
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Completely agree.
What a silly silly woman. She took the bait that these thugs engineered and has now, to the majority of the general public, made hunts look bad.
She played right into this type of sabs hands ....


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## MagicMelon (21 November 2017)

fburton said:



			If they were indeed horrible, common, filthy scum, they deserved everything they got.
		
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That doesnt make you sound snobby at all


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## fburton (21 November 2017)

Judgemental said:



			Technically under all sorts of old established historical laws, the individual was trying to steal the horse.
		
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Interesting. Usually, for something to be theft there needs to be an intention to permanently deprive - otherwise it could be argued to be borrowing. Is that not the case with (ridden) horses?


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## Hanno Verian (21 November 2017)

Its an interesting case this if I'm not mistaken this is about the fourth similar story in the Mail in the last few weeks - obviously the Sabs have got more savvy about using the media.

The point is we are seeing an edited version of an event that was filmed by an individual with their own specific agenda, this was not a well balanced neutral reporting of events.

What we saw on the footage and what actually happened on the day may be very different - 

We saw a lady apparently using her horse to move a masked individual in a specific direction, he grabs her reins and she strikes him repeatedly until he lets go. The description of her riding at the sab is to me an exaggeration as it makes it sound like she galloped at him and rode him down, which is clearly not the case.

Was she trying to protect young children from being pulled of ponies or riders on more volatile horses having their horses spooked in an attempt to unseat them or was she frustrated by Sabs blocking a legal activity on private land - We don't know! 

What we do know is that the Sab was masked - Whilst not illegal is most certainly intimidating, he did grab the riders bridle and it appears that they were trespassing.

I don't think that the way that the footage has shown the hunt in a positive light, from the way it is edited it, to a non horsy member of the public appears to show a member of the hunt over reacting and beating a Sab viciously, would I do the same if I were mounted and someone grabbed my bridle - absolutely. Would I have put myself in that position, I don't know. I used to hunt with a lady who had no arms and controlled her horse purely with her feet if she or a child were put in danger or intimidated by a masked individual I would like to think that I would put myself in the way.


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## cobgoblin (21 November 2017)

I didn't see the woman attempt to run anyone down with the horse. She approached the sabs and told them to get back onto the road, one of them grabbed the horse's bridle and started pulling the horse around in a tight circle. Not surprised she fought back, he was told to get off the horse but continued his actions.
I don't hunt but frankly if someone started attacking my horse then they would have got worse than that. 

Other members of the hunt were present and close by. The terrier man was also telling the sabs to get back on the road.


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## ihatework (21 November 2017)

Hanno Verian said:



			Its an interesting case this if I'm not mistaken this is about the fourth similar story in the Mail in the last few weeks - obviously the Sabs have got more savvy about using the media.

The point is we are seeing an edited version of an event that was filmed by an individual with their own specific agenda, this was not a well balanced neutral reporting of events.

What we saw on the footage and what actually happened on the day may be very different - 

We saw a lady apparently using her horse to move a masked individual in a specific direction, he grabs her reins and she strikes him repeatedly until he lets go. The description of her riding at the sab is to me an exaggeration as it makes it sound like she galloped at him and rode him down, which is clearly not the case.

Was she trying to protect young children from being pulled of ponies or riders on more volatile horses having their horses spooked in an attempt to unseat them or was she frustrated by Sabs blocking a legal activity on private land - We don't know! 

What we do know is that the Sab was masked - Whilst not illegal is most certainly intimidating, he did grab the riders bridle and it appears that they were trespassing.

I don't think that the way that the footage has shown the hunt in a positive light, from the way it is edited it, to a non horsy member of the public appears to show a member of the hunt over reacting and beating a Sab viciously, would I do the same if I were mounted and someone grabbed my bridle - absolutely. Would I have put myself in that position, I don't know. I used to hunt with a lady who had no arms and controlled her horse purely with her feet if she or a child were put in danger or intimidated by a masked individual I would like to think that I would put myself in the way.
		
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Well it&#8217;s reaching the point where hunts should probably have go pros and other video equipment to hand. There needs to be consequences for the violent/intimidating type of sab. There are plenty of peaceful monitors out and about


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## cobgoblin (21 November 2017)

fburton said:



			Interesting. Usually, for something to be theft there needs to be an intention to permanently deprive - otherwise it could be argued to be borrowing. Is that not the case with (ridden) horses?
		
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It would be interesting to know what his intentions were in grabbing the bridle..... Was it a mock up in order to claim that she tried to run him down? Mere provocation in the hope of an assault? Or did he intend to pull her off the horse?


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## GirlFriday (21 November 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			I didn't see the woman attempt to run anyone down with the horse.
		
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If you look at the longer clip someon put a link to she clearly does exactly this. The protesters and various foot followers are walking away and she rides up behind them at speed. I suspect the newspaper clip is edited down to show the whipping as that looks more dramatic. But actually from a safety point of view her riding at them at speed (when none of them were near her horse and they were walking away) was the most dangerous thing I saw on there.

Unbelievably lousy horsewomanship and appalling behaviour from the rider. Disgraceful.

And the masked hunt followers throwing rocks at windscreens on the other clip is pretty close to intent to endanger life. Shocking.


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## ycbm (21 November 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			It would be interesting to know what his intentions were in grabbing the bridle..... Was it a mock up in order to claim that she tried to run him down? Mere provocation in the hope of an assault? Or did he intend to pull her off the horse?
		
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I think he was well aware she would use the horse to push him off the field and knew that the safest way to stop her doing that was to make it circle around him.  When she charges them later, it's clear she has no regard for either them or her horse. She has given the sabs everything they could have dreamed of. 

Unfortunately this isn't going to stop until hunts stop laying weak trails which allow them to hunt fox 'within the law'.  Drag hunts which lay strong scents are only sabbed by mistake.


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## Apercrumbie (21 November 2017)

She's a foolish woman - the saboteurs are having a field day with this in the media and the public are already anti-hunting. Saying that, if someone grabbed my horse's mouth and tried to hurt him, I'd probably end up in jail.


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## Hanno Verian (21 November 2017)

ihatework said:



			Well it&#8217;s reaching the point where hunts should probably have go pros and other video equipment to hand. There needs to be consequences for the violent/intimidating type of sab. There are plenty of peaceful monitors out and about
		
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I agree - Not all hunts behave impeccably, nor are all Anti Hunt protestors violent extremists, in this day and age you would think that the hunts would be more savvy about proving that they are hunting within the law and dealing with protestors in an appropriate manner.

Although I acknowledge that it is very difficult to do this if you are confronted by a group of very intimidating sabs who are bent on provoking a confrontation so that they can use it against you and the only response from the police is to tell you to report it at the local station.


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## ester (21 November 2017)

They should, a bloodhound pack had an issue earlier in the week and someone commented (presume master?) saying he had banned gopros because he felt that their recording facility was a breach of the rest of the fields privacy with regards to conversations etc. I do think that hunt staff at least should probably consider wearing them and surprised those in the most affected areas don't.

I think also the trouble is that not only are they hell bent in provoking confrontation but they will do so all day, and follow all day so it is not a case of walking away and leaving them. They would also love it if  the hunt packed up and went home so it's a bit no win other than getting the police involved.


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## GTRJazz (21 November 2017)

Yes she Certainly made a mess of that situation another example of how saboteurs do not understand horse welfare here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOvMcOwOLQ0  for the record I would never go out and hunt a fox I just like Mock Hunting.


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## mother_of_poniesx (21 November 2017)

I am not condoning them grabbing the horse BUT this woman was riding her horse at them. No way would I use my horse as a weapon like that. I care about my horse's far too much to do that.
Don't get me wrong, if someone grabbed my horse like that for no reason I would be wolloping them to.
I'm sorry but the woman in this video should be ashamed using her horse like that.


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## BBP (21 November 2017)

The law allows a person to use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of:
self-defence; or
defence of another; or
defence of property; or
prevention of crime; or
lawful arrest.
In assessing the reasonableness of the force used, prosecutors should ask two questions:
was the use of force necessary in the circumstances, i.e. Was there a need for any force at all? and
was the force used reasonable in the circumstances?

To use a whip on a person and for it to be deemed reasonable use of force you would have to demonstrate that you felt that your life or the lives of those around you were under significant enough threat of harm that it was reasonable for you to take the action that you did.  You cannot repel trespassers by force unless they were conducting a criminal rather than civil activity (trespass is a civil offence).

I cannot watch the footage but it sounds like by riding at the sabs the rider was taking a course of action that was not necessary.  The sab grabbing the reins could have forced the rider to use reasonable force 'in the defence of property' if they felt the property (horse) was going to be damaged by the activity but that force would need to be proportional.  A very strong man swinging a whip at a very slight female would be viewed differently by the courts to if a slight female used a whip to deter a very strong man.  It would be an interesting argument to see in court if they both tried to argue they were using reasonable force.


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## mother_of_poniesx (21 November 2017)

Just wanted to add; In the original video which I watched on fb over the weekend you can see her riding into the sabs. She repeatedly turns the horse and tries to mow them down. 
Both as bad as each other imo


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## Rowreach (21 November 2017)

In the days before the ban, when I hunted a lot with a biggish English pack, we were the only pack in the area not to be pursued and continually disrupted by the antis.  We had our regular group who would come out and be a bit irritating, but none of the violent, intimidating sort.

The reason for this was that the huntsman and Masters refused to engage with them other than with politeness.  The huntsman would tell them the location of the meet the night before, so they didn't need to camp outside the kennels and upset the locals.  Field members were told to ignore them.  As a result, we were a very boring lot for them to come out with, so on the whole they went to other packs where they got more of a reaction.

I've watched the longer video clip, and while I have no time for antis, and no understanding as to how they can be allowed to don balaclavas and trespass on private property, she asked for it and put herself and her horse into the situation. Needlessly.


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## rachk89 (21 November 2017)

Regardless of who is at fault, a court will decide that, the woman has only given us all a bad name when we are trying to get the public on our side to keep horses safe on roads, in hunting etc. Not going to gain sympathy by battering someone with a whip.


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## KautoStar1 (21 November 2017)

[QUOTE   Drag hunts which lay strong scents are only sabbed by mistake.[/QUOTE]

Don't know about that as I have been out with the Blood Hounds when the sabs have been around, which clear shows their ignorance and the more likely truth that this is about the perceived class structure rather than animal welfare.  Indeed I have seen horses stabbed and pepper spray sprayed in hounds eyes.  this lot are just rent a mob looking for a cheap day out where they can kick off  without having their collars felt.


I don't hunt anymore for various reasons but all of this just reinforces why I don't wish to do so in the future.

I have had someone try to drag me off my horse (not in a hunting situation) and I can tell you, the wretched little man felt the full force of my whip and my horse as I rode him into the hedge.  would I do it again, hell yes if I was in danger.  However, only in response to the situation.


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## respectedpony driver (21 November 2017)

Why don't the hunts let the sabs and anyone else go on the trail laying so that they can prove they are trail hunting.I have asked again and again to go on the trail laying and have always been put off or ignored.I suspect that is because there is no trail.Everyone including hunters around here know that they are hunting foxes or anything that gets in the way.Shame there is no easy answer.Such violence on both sides must not be tolerated.This woman lost her temper.People usually get that aggressive because they know deep down they are in the wrong.It is animals abuse to set one lot of animals onto another animal for fun.


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## mother_of_poniesx (21 November 2017)

The TC Bloodhounds had a horrible incident on Sunday where they were chased by an idiot in a car shouting abuse. I believe he even drove in to some of the horses. 
I have no sympathy for antis that behave in this way or try to intimidate/trespass/hurt people or animals.
Our local hunt has a visit from a group every season. They deliberatly try to intimidate people. We have found simply ignoring them and moving away is the best way to deal with them. Last year we were lucky that a landowner was happy for the hunt to change the route and go through his property and police were called to make sure they didnt follow. 
The woman in this video is just giving them what they want - a reaction. It gives them something to shout about.


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## DappleDown (21 November 2017)

Ok. Now I've watched the footage of this incident, questions:

What happened before the man grabbed the horse's reins - why isn't that part of the film available to view?
Why did he grab the reins?
Why was the rider close enough for the man to grab the reins?

In my opinion, both parties acted without wisdom.


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## ester (21 November 2017)

respectedpony said:



			Why don't the hunts let the sabs and anyone else go on the trail laying so that they can prove they are trail hunting.I have asked again and again to go on the trail laying and have always been put off or ignored.I suspect that is because there is no trail.Everyone including hunters around here know that they are hunting foxes or anything that gets in the way.Shame there is no easy answer.Such violence on both sides must not be tolerated.This woman lost her temper.People usually get that aggressive because they know deep down they are in the wrong.It is animals abuse to set one lot of animals onto another animal for fun.
		
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Because many of the sabs aren't that interested in whether foxes are involved or not (hence they turning up to bloodhound and traditional draghound meets) they just want to cause trouble and know which buttons to push. So showing them that a trail has been laid wouldn't mean much to many of them.


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## respectedpony driver (21 November 2017)

ester said:



			Because many of the sabs aren't that interested in whether foxes are involved or not (hence they turning up to bloodhound and traditional draghound meets) they just want to cause trouble and know which buttons to push. So showing them that a trail has been laid wouldn't mean much to many of them.
		
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Many of the sabs would be interested to see the trail laid and lots of other people too,I know I would and it would bring a lot of antis peace of mind.Labelling all sabs as trouble makers is not very helpful


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## ihatework (21 November 2017)

respectedpony said:



			Many of the sabs would be interested to see the trail laid and lots of other people too,I know I would and it would bring a lot of antis peace of mind.Labelling all sabs as trouble makers is not very helpful
		
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I think you need to differentiate between the saboteur - which are generally mindless thugs, and the monitors who are genuinely anti-hunt and on the whole behave reasonably - well at least in comparison to the sabs


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## stencilface (21 November 2017)

I'll be honest I always suspect most hunts are cagey as there's probably something they're up to that's not within the law. I've met too many people who enjoy killing stuff to believe that all hunts are squeaky clean.

Aside from true draghunts.


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## ester (21 November 2017)

I didn't label all sabs, I said many  I do also split sabs and antis into different groups, the sabs being their to cause trouble for the day as per the name. I can imagine hunts would agree to do so if they felt that they would get some benefit from it so it probably depends on which people  they usually have to deal with. If they have ones that are no bother who would like to see a trail laid it probably isn't going to help the number of altercations that happen with the others.


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## Judgemental (21 November 2017)

KatPT said:



			The law allows a person to use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of:
self-defence; or
defence of another; or
defence of property; or
prevention of crime; or
lawful arrest.
In assessing the reasonableness of the force used, prosecutors should ask two questions:
was the use of force necessary in the circumstances, i.e. Was there a need for any force at all? and
was the force used reasonable in the circumstances?

To use a whip on a person and for it to be deemed reasonable use of force you would have to demonstrate that you felt that your life or the lives of those around you were under significant enough threat of harm that it was reasonable for you to take the action that you did.  You cannot repel trespassers by force unless they were conducting a criminal rather than civil activity (trespass is a civil offence).

I cannot watch the footage but it sounds like by riding at the sabs the rider was taking a course of action that was not necessary.  The sab grabbing the reins could have forced the rider to use reasonable force 'in the defence of property' if they felt the property (horse) was going to be damaged by the activity but that force would need to be proportional.  A very strong man swinging a whip at a very slight female would be viewed differently by the courts to if a slight female used a whip to deter a very strong man.  It would be an interesting argument to see in court if they both tried to argue they were using reasonable force.
		
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Exactly I agree with you one hundred percent.

There is another argument and that is the temperament of the horse and what it may do in such an unusual circumstance.

If this were to go to court and the Crown Prosecution Service charged the lady on the horse, one of the major factors that they will have to consider, is the horse and it's history. Frankly they will have a huge barrel of bricks to push up hill, when an equine expert witness is inevitably called to give evidence. 

Some horses might see the person holding onto the reins as a threat and turn round and kick them into oblivion and the lady, was merely trying to get the person away from her horse and causing them to release their hands from the reins.

I said in a previous post, I have been in a similar close encounter, but not with a sab grabbing the reins. Had they done so, I know the horse concerned, would have taken his own defensive action and the individual would have almost certainly have been killed or very badly injured.

In the same circumstances, I would have taken the same action as the young lady. Only my weapon of choice would have been a very heavy hunting crop. THEREBY HAVING NO CHOICE BUT TO KNOCK THE PERSON UNCONSCIOUS IN ORDER THAT THEY LET GO OF THE REINS. 

That said, it may be the CPS would be obliged to take proceedings against the person, holding onto the reins, for causing criminal distress and anxiety etc.

If the CPS decided not to take any action, I would have thought a private prosecution of the sab, for causing unlawful distress and anxiety to the rider, when in charge of horse, would succeed in the County Court. 

Could be worth a bob or two and set a very useful precedent.


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## Damnation (21 November 2017)

What I see is a fustrated person who has swallowed the bait of the Sabs.

I think there is fault on both sides, however if this is a regular occurance then yes you would be fustrated. The fact that Sabs aren't dealt with in a more efficient manner by the law (for tresspass etc) is beyond me. Why they think it is their god given right to tresspass onto someone elses land is beyond me.


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## mle22 (21 November 2017)

Going by some of the replies in this thread its no wonder people who hunt are seen the way they are!


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## Judgemental (21 November 2017)

Damnation said:



			What I see is a fustrated person who has swallowed the bait of the Sabs.

I think there is fault on both sides, however if this is a regular occurance then yes you would be fustrated. The fact that Sabs aren't dealt with in a more efficient manner by the law (for tresspass etc) is beyond me. Why they think it is their god given right to tresspass onto someone elses land is beyond me.
		
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I simply cannot agree there is fault on both sides. It is unlawful of anybody in any circumstance to interfere with the horse any rider is upon. No matter what the circumstances.

Allow me to use the scenario  of one being confronted by a burglar in one's home. The law allows one to use reasonable force, when one is being threatened and that is exactly what was happening because the person was on a horse.

I absolutely guarantee that any equine expert witness and I stress equine expert witness, recognised by the courts, will support the rider's defence and any civil claim they may make, as to the risk to the horse.


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## honetpot (21 November 2017)

I have been out with my children when the sabs are out and it can be frightening but you just have to smile sweetly and wish them good morning.
  I have no ideas how the incident happened, its true they go out to get a reaction. Most of them do not know anything about horses and they can get very close, not just to intimidate but just from lack of knowledge of how unpredictable horses can be, couple with foul language and its a volatile mix.
  As to letting them watch the trail being laid, farmers have enough problems with people wandering on to their land without inviting a set of people who often have extreme views and the landowner is a sitting target, literally with property to lose. Its doubtful they would believe it anyway.


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## fburton (21 November 2017)

Judgemental said:



			It is unlawful of anybody in any circumstance to interfere with the horse any rider is upon. No matter what the circumstances.
		
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Does that include police attempting to apprehend a criminal on horseback? Presumably they would have to figure a way of getting the rider off without touching or otherwise interfering with the mount. Amazing if true!


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## cobgoblin (21 November 2017)

Bet the sabs wouldn't act like this if horses had teeth like a shark.


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## Judgemental (21 November 2017)

fburton said:



			Does that include police attempting to apprehend a criminal on horseback? Presumably they would have to figure a way of getting the rider off without touching or otherwise interfering with the mount. Amazing if true!
		
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Clearly you have not read my earlier post on this thread with respect to the police a) herding crowds with police horses and b) dealing with individuals interfering with police horses in any circumstances.

That said in the latter element,  as I said in the post they will find themselves whacked with a nightstick. I.e the long truncheon carried somtimes in the manner of a sabre to the rear of the saddle Or in this picture in front of the knee roll for ease of drawing.  https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=p...hWPC-wKHZGNAM4Q9QEINTAD#imgrc=O1pyNr4bXtSooM:


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## Bojingles (21 November 2017)

MagicMelon said:



			I dont want to open a can of worms here, but I imagine the sabs arguement would be that they cant believe the police dont do more to stop illegal hunting which is still continuing in many hunts... I guess they feel they have to take the law into their own hands to a degree.  I dont support either - both are very much in the wrong. I do believe that hunts need closely monitoring though, but not by people like this.
		
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Indeed. I have to say, the party I feel really sorry for is the poor bloody horse.


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## fburton (21 November 2017)

Judgemental said:



			Clearly you have not read my earlier post on this thread with respect to the police a) herding crowds with police horses and b) dealing with individuals interfering with police horses in any circumstances.
		
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To clarify, I was referring to a scenario where the criminal was on horseback.


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## Sandstone1 (21 November 2017)

If hunts didn't break the law and continue to deliberately hunt foxes there would be no need for hunt monitors to behave in a aggressive way.


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## ester (21 November 2017)

Sandstone1 said:



			If hunts didn't break the law and continue to deliberately hunt foxes there would be no need for hunt monitors to behave in a aggressive way.
		
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so how do you explain them bothering bloodhounds then?


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## Sandstone1 (21 November 2017)

ester said:



			so how do you explain them bothering bloodhounds then?
		
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Possibly they don't trust any hunt to behave properly and within the law


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## ester (21 November 2017)

I don't think there is ever any record of a bloodhound even considering a fox, they weren't bred for it. You would think there time would be better spent elsewhere, with say, um, foxhounds?


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## Sandstone1 (21 November 2017)

ester said:



			I don't think there is ever any record of a bloodhound even considering a fox, they weren't bred for it. You would think there time would be better spent elsewhere, with say, um, foxhounds?[/QU
  Well obviously they do spend time with foxhounds don't they?
Not saying who's right or wrong in this incident but hunts are still hunting foxes and untill the police take that more seriously and prosecute for it there are going to be incidents like this.
Like it or not some hunts are breaking the law.  At the end of the day if nothing is being done wrong then there is nothing to hide.
		
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## ester (21 November 2017)

Well yes, but you said there was no need for 'monitors to behave aggressively' if hunts weren't breaking the law. 
Frankly I don't think anyone should be behaving aggressively regardless and certainly not as per the other incident earlier this week driving a car at bloodhound followers who are chasing a human!

When out with foxhounds I've seen the police out more than I have monitors so I don't think they are doing a terrible job at upholding the law.


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## ycbm (21 November 2017)

ester said:



			so how do you explain them bothering bloodhounds then?
		
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I haven't ever seen organised sabbing of any drag hunt or bloodhound hunt Ester, and I've done plenty of it. One off idiots shouting abuse who get very embarrassed when you politely explain that you are hunting a man, yes, but not sabbing. I don't believe that it happens on any significant level. These sabs are annoyed that hunting of fox continues. If it stopped, so would they.

But the law, as you know,  is framed to allow hunts to lay a weak scent, and not to call the hounds off when they divert onto a fox. So it's going to continue for years and years yet.


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## Wagtail (21 November 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			There is a longer clip on YouTube 

https://youtu.be/FhHi8Yh1_5o

The Metro clip is very edited.
		
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Shocking, That woman went back for more and charged them again. She is completely out of control of her anger and should not be riding a horse in that state. Totally and utterly wrong IMO. She will be lucky not to get a prison sentence. Sabs shouldn't be tresspassing, but she should not charge at people and then use her whip on one. She was not under any threat herself so why charge at people on foot? Just stupid. The rest of the hunts people were impeccably behaved, but she lost it.


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## ester (21 November 2017)

I don't think it happens very often, but it's been reported enough for me to do an eye roll, I've not done the calendar but it seems to be when the foxhunters aren't in proper season/there is no one foxhunting much on that day of the week.


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## Sandstone1 (21 November 2017)

ester said:



			I don't think it happens very often, but it's been reported enough for me to do an eye roll, I've not done the calendar but it seems to be when the foxhunters aren't in proper season/there is no one foxhunting much on that day of the week.
		
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I don't really understand what bloodhounds have got  to do with it.
My point is that hunt monitors have a right to be out watching what's going on and if nothing is being done wrong why do people get so angry with them?
Fair enough some of them can get stroppy but so can the hunt.


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## ester (21 November 2017)

hunt monitors do not have a right to be out watching on private land. People get angry because they are frequently trespassing, and sometimes either cause direct injury to horses/hounds or encourage them to head in dangerous directions like heading towards railway lines. Many of them can get more than stroppy and can be quite violent. 


bloodhounds came up because you said that if hunts weren't still hunting foxes sabs/monitors wouldn't need to be out. Yet hunts (bloodhounds and drag hunts) which have never ever hunted fox only people, even when it was legal still get sabbed so that argument doesn't seem to totally follow.


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## Tiddlypom (21 November 2017)

Ester, don't confuse monitors and sabs.


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## ester (21 November 2017)

Ah yes my bad, I only used that term because of replying to the post above. I should have added an additional bit after the first sentence because I went and added that as I was typing. 
I do suspect for the people getting angry the lines between the two become blurred though, hence their reactions.


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## Sandstone1 (21 November 2017)

ester said:



			hunt monitors do not have a right to be out watching on private land. People get angry because they are frequently trespassing, and sometimes either cause direct injury to horses/hounds or encourage them to head in dangerous directions like heading towards railway lines. Many of them can get more than stroppy and can be quite violent. 


bloodhounds came up because you said that if hunts weren't still hunting foxes sabs/monitors wouldn't need to be out. Yet hunts (bloodhounds and drag hunts) which have never ever hunted fox only people, even when it was legal still get sabbed so that argument doesn't seem to totally follow.
		
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And yet you've just been told that hunt monitors don't normally follow bloodhounds?
Trespassing is usually a civil matter and some hunts are certainly not above trespass themselves.
Yet again my question is if there is nothing to hide and hunts are working within the law why worry?
You can't really expect everyone just to turn a blind eye to people breaking the law can you?
Anyway I'm off now as this is going round in circles.


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## ester (21 November 2017)

and I agreed that it doesn't happen that often- you even quoted the post where I said that!?

But that isn't to say never, and I was just trying to get to what you thought their reasons would be given the reasoning that you had written for monitors/sabs/antis being out and you answered that for me way up there ^^ somewhere by saying that they don't trust people even doing those activities not to be hunting fox.

I think people worry because of what has happened to people or themselves in the past in similar situations, I think that is normal human nature. 

I don't think I have suggested anywhere that I would expect people to turn a blind eye to the law being broken, in fact I know I haven't I have just tried to answer the questions you have put.


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## ozpoz (21 November 2017)

She does look confrontational to start with. I couldn't say she was trying to ride someone down though - would you really put yourself at risk in that way? 

 However, the man was deliberately holding on to the reins and could have caused a serious accident to both horse and rider. At that point, I don't blame her for hitting him. You can hear the other sab shouting at him to let go.

Poor horse. It would have been sensible to take him away from the situation which looked very rough on him.


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## GTRJazz (21 November 2017)

Video is now on a couple of non horse sites with big hits 1.3k quite a few people saying the do not like fox hunting but would do the same thing as her , poor horse etc.


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## RunToEarth (21 November 2017)

He's lucky she didn't have a hunting crop, if someone had done that to any of ours I would have rammed it up his arse. 

FYI the horse in the footage is wary of men anyway - the level of cruelty shown in that video is only really evident to equine people, and even then, perhaps only those who have had to deal with rehabilitating very nervy horses.


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## Tiddlypom (21 November 2017)

If the horse is a rehabbed nervy type, why on earth did she put him in that situation?


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## Rowreach (21 November 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			If the horse is a rehabbed nervy type, why on earth did she put him in that situation?
		
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Yes, makes what she did even more silly really.


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## Wagtail (21 November 2017)

RunToEarth said:



			He's lucky she didn't have a hunting crop, if someone had done that to any of ours I would have rammed it up his arse. 

FYI the horse in the footage is wary of men anyway - the level of cruelty shown in that video is only really evident to equine people, and even then, perhaps only those who have had to deal with rehabilitating very nervy horses.
		
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Then she should not be charging at men, yanking his mouth and ramming him with her spurs!


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## Hexx (21 November 2017)

Hunt Monitors vs Sabs

As far as I am aware, neither group have any right, express permission or legal authority to follow, monitor, disrupt, take photos (without permission), approach horses/riders, trespass on land in order to follow a hunt.

If there is a reason to doubt that hunts are not following the law, then isn't this the police's jurisdiction to ensure that the law is followed?


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## Cecile (21 November 2017)

I can sort of understand her being pumped up and flying towards them, everyone looses the plot occasionally, I get the fact that she lashed out when he took the reins although its been counted as 17 hits with the crop <bit excessive> 
I don't get the waving the crop about like a screaming banshee when it was in effect all over and the horse was then back in her control or the fact that they were all walking away with their backs to her <with hands carefully placed behind their backs in some instances> and she came flying up the field towards them again to have another go, she was obviously not worried about her or her horses safety, in fear of anything or needing to get away from them due to any distress

I think she lost the plot and shot herself in the foot with that footage, she would of been better off bursting into tears or carefully falling/climbing off the horse when he grabbed the reins, Jo Public would of warmed to her

I tend to think they achieved their goal for the day and will be absolutely delighted with her entire performance and the level of interest in their film


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## Cecile (21 November 2017)

Hexx said:



			Hunt Monitors vs Sabs

As far as I am aware, neither group have any right, express permission or legal authority to follow, monitor, disrupt, take photos (without permission), approach horses/riders, trespass on land in order to follow a hunt.

If there is a reason to doubt that hunts are not following the law, then isn't this the police's jurisdiction to ensure that the law is followed?
		
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There is no law to stop anyone taking photo's otherwise hatcam's, dashcam's and all the other cams would be illegal, every phone available now has someone attached to it taking selfies, film or photo's, it is called Citizen Journalism and is a feature of modern day life and the police rally around asking for film clips from the general public when a problem occurs in an area

Trespass is just a civil matter, I doubt the police could give a rats ar$e about if the law was being followed regarding hunting but obviously now have to investigate a complaint of assault which has been made


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## ycbm (21 November 2017)

Hexx said:



			Hunt Monitors vs Sabs

As far as I am aware, neither group have any right, express permission or legal authority to follow, monitor, disrupt, take photos (without permission), approach horses/riders, trespass on land in order to follow a hunt.
		
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You can take photos of whoever and whatever you like when they are in plain view.




			If there is a reason to doubt that hunts are not following the law, then isn't this the police's jurisdiction to ensure that the law is followed?
		
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No. Police investigate crime. The crime is normally reported by other people. You generally have to establish that there is good reason to believe that there has been a crime before the police will investigate it.


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## Tiddlypom (22 November 2017)

Hexx said:



			Hunt Monitors vs Sabs
		
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The new breed of hunt monitors are savvy. They video and photograph from areas where they are not trespassing like the road or a right of way. They do not interfere with or harrass the hunt, they simply collect photographic and video material which could be used as evidence if needed. They are nothing like the hunt sabs who do indeed do all sorts of illegal, violent and unpleasant things.

If a particular hunt is trail hunting legally, why on earth would they be afraid of being monitored? You'd think they'd welcome the chance to demonstrate they are indeed 'trail hunting' and not setting out to hunt as per pre ban. 

Maybe this is a simplistic and naive view :rolleyes3:.

ETA I believe that monitors do not mask themselves. More brownie points for them.


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## Judgemental (22 November 2017)

Plainly the persons and person attacking Jane Goring, represented the thin end of the wedge of revolutionary terrorism. 

The police do little or nothing so far as properly policing any hunt gathering. I hope this episode instills in the police, the need to get in their 4 x 4's and or a mounted provision for a proper presence, at all times and throughout the day.


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## meleeka (22 November 2017)

Judgemental said:



			The police do little or nothing so far as properly policing any hunt gathering. I hope this episode instills in the police, the need to get in their 4 x 4's and or a mounted provision for a proper presence, at all times and throughout the day.
		
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I think this would be a waste of police resources and I wouldnt support it. People who hunt are already seen as upper class toffs and having a police escort every time they go hunting isnt going to help change that view. A friend has had a farm hand do the same thing to her. Nobody would suggest she gets the police to accompany her in case it happens again! 

I think the woman in the video played right into their hands. She didnt need to ride at him and put her horse in that situation (especially if its a nervous type as mentioned above). She lost her temper and ought to be as ashamed as the man holding the reins.


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## Luci07 (22 November 2017)

Before I rushed to pass judgment, I did take the time to trawl the net and then came up with a very different story. There were 16 sabs, this woman had become separated with a juvenile on his horse and the sab had already punched the horse in the mouth. Now that throws a different light doesn't it? Do any of you remember the old Guardian ad, showing a tattooed man chasing a woman? And how that was judged...yet when the video was extended, it showed the man trying to return a bag to said woman. The point being is you need the broader picture before passing judgement. Years ago when out hacking with someone else's child I was surrounded by abusive antis who thought I was hunting. I was terrified. End of. They were called off but had I been grabbed and threatened I would have behaved in the same way.


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## fburton (22 November 2017)

Luci07 said:



			Before I rushed to pass judgment, I did take the time to trawl the net and then came up with a very different story. There were 16 sabs, this woman had become separated with a juvenile on his horse and the sab had already punched the horse in the mouth. Now that throws a different light doesn't it?
		
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It's certainly material to understanding what went on, and why. However, it doesn't excuse or even justify the woman's later behaviour. So it's not quite the "night and day" difference that your Guardian ad example illustrated so well.

That said, I condemn violence - physical or verbal - whichever side it is coming from. I'm sorry you were subjected to it yourself. :frown3:


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## mother_of_poniesx (22 November 2017)

Very dangerous when people take the law into their own hands imo. 
I don't buy the argument that "if the hunt has nothing to hide it shouldn't matter" either.
In my experience the majority of sabs seem to out of their way to intimidate, cause trouble and ignore private property. They endanger hounds and horses and even riders in some cases with their stupid actions. My local pack have been harrassed every season and are perfectly legal in all ways.


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## ycbm (22 November 2017)

Before I rushed to pass judgment, I did take the time to trawl the net and then came up with a very different story. There were 16 sabs, this woman had become separated with a juvenile on his horse and the sab had already punched the horse in the mouth. Now that throws a different light doesn't it?
		
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Yes, it makes it totally inexplicable why she chose to take the horse anywhere near the sabs again!


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## Cecile (22 November 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			The new breed of hunt monitors are savvy. They video and photograph from areas where they are not trespassing like the road or a right of way. They do not interfere with or harrass the hunt, they simply collect photographic and video material which could be used as evidence if needed. They are nothing like the hunt sabs who do indeed do all sorts of illegal, violent and unpleasant things.

If a particular hunt is trail hunting legally, why on earth would they be afraid of being monitored? You'd think they'd welcome the chance to demonstrate they are indeed 'trail hunting' and not setting out to hunt as per pre ban. 

Maybe this is a simplistic and naive view :rolleyes3:.

ETA I believe that monitors do not mask themselves. More brownie points for them.
		
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I once by chance came across a monitor's website, they are so well organised its quite unbelievable,
it was all about the law regarding PRoW etc <written for them by lawyers> what they can and cannot do,
how to go about gaining useful footage, its was quite fascinating how well briefed they were, even who to contact and what to do if you were arrested

Hunts need to get their act together and start acting in unison, those people all stood near to each other, one filming and they all walked away together, that horse woman was trying to take on the world on her own, being filmed the whole time whilst the rest of the field watched from a distance

I once watched a film where people were robbing a shop, a dear old lady rushed up and was bashing the robbers with her bag or umbrella and do you know what the people in the street were doing, filming her until some bright spark got off his backside and helped her, is that what we have all become jeez......


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## fburton (22 November 2017)

mother_of_poniesx said:



			I don't buy the argument that "if the hunt has nothing to hide it shouldn't matter" either.
		
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If it was possible to film the whole proceedings while protecting the privacy of those involved, would you be in favour of doing this to show that hunts really have nothing to hide?


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## GirlFriday (22 November 2017)

Hexx said:



			If that person was to walk down a London street, dressed in black with a balaclava on, you could bet they would be swamped by police.
		
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This is just nonsense I'm afraid. For several years there were people in black with balaclavas and scream masks over the top protesting outside a particular organisation in London. May well still be there for all I know.

Edited to add: no comment on if that is a good thing. Just pointing out that masked protests also take place (and in fact more masked) in London too.


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## mother_of_poniesx (22 November 2017)

fburton said:



			If it was possible to film the whole proceedings while protecting the privacy of those involved, would you be in favour of doing this to show that hunts really have nothing to hide?
		
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I would see no problem at all. What I take issue with is monitors taking the law into their own hands and making a nuisance of themselves. 
If they wish to follow the hunt, didn't try to intimidate, or put hounds/horses/riders at risk, and didn't trespass on private land I would have no issue.
However in my experience whether the hunt is genuinely following the law is an insignificant detail to these people. They are far more concerned with intimidating and causing as much disruption as possible.


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## fburton (22 November 2017)

mother_of_poniesx said:



			I would see no problem at all. What I take issue with is monitors taking the law into their own hands and making a nuisance of themselves. 
If they wish to follow the hunt, didn't try to intimidate, or put hounds/horses/riders at risk, and didn't trespass on private land I would have no issue.
However in my experience whether the hunt is genuinely following the law is an insignificant detail to these people. They are far more concerned with intimidating and causing as much disruption as possible.
		
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No arguments with this - "sab" behaviour from monitors is unacceptable.


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## Fellewell (22 November 2017)

RunToEarth said:



			He's lucky she didn't have a hunting crop, if someone had done that to any of ours I would have rammed it up his arse. 

FYI the horse in the footage is wary of men anyway - the level of cruelty shown in that video is only really evident to equine people, and even then, perhaps only those who have had to deal with rehabilitating very nervy horses.
		
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Hunting is an excellent way to produce sound, mannerly horses and she had every right to be there, unlike her assailant. However even an experienced horse might strike out in that situation so she had to remove that fool for his own safety. A couple of stings with a whip is preferable to being trampled, this should be obvious.


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## Fellewell (22 November 2017)

Cecile said:



			I once by chance came across a monitor's website, they are so well organised its quite unbelievable,
it was all about the law regarding PRoW etc <written for them by lawyers> what they can and cannot do,
how to go about gaining useful footage, its was quite fascinating how well briefed they were, even who to contact and what to do if you were arrested

Hunts need to get their act together and start acting in unison, those people all stood near to each other, one filming and they all walked away together, that horse woman was trying to take on the world on her own, being filmed the whole time whilst the rest of the field watched from a distance

I once watched a film where people were robbing a shop, a dear old lady rushed up and was bashing the robbers with her bag or umbrella and do you know what the people in the street were doing, filming her until some bright spark got off his backside and helped her, is that what we have all become jeez......
		
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Excellent post


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## KautoStar1 (22 November 2017)

Hexx said:



			Hunt Monitors vs Sabs

As far as I am aware, neither group have any right, express permission or legal authority to follow, monitor, disrupt, take photos (without permission), approach horses/riders, trespass on land in order to follow a hunt.

If there is a reason to doubt that hunts are not following the law, then isn't this the police's jurisdiction to ensure that the law is followed?
		
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exactly !


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## Hexx (22 November 2017)

GirlFriday said:



			This is just nonsense I'm afraid. For several years there were people in black with balaclavas and scream masks over the top protesting outside a particular organisation in London. May well still be there for all I know.

Edited to add: no comment on if that is a good thing. Just pointing out that masked protests also take place (and in fact more masked) in London too.
		
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Sorry, don't agree.  If the Police were aware that this was their way of protesting, in an orderly manner, then yes, I could see why it may not be actionable.

However, put a mask on and walk down the street in this day and age - see what happens .......


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## GirlFriday (22 November 2017)

I used to get on the tube in a body protector - that got me a seat alright...

But no, still disagree. Police are way too stretched for that. Plenty of hoody wearing/face half half covered in scarf types not being harassed by police around. There is undoubtedly a disproportionate (in the different % to % of population sense) amount of stop and search of some groups. But by no means all at all. You get some ve-ry strange outfits around...


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## Luci07 (22 November 2017)

ycbm said:



			Yes, it makes it totally inexplicable why she chose to take the horse anywhere near the sabs again!
		
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She stayed back to safeguard a young juvenile and they were separated from the others. What do you think these people would have done if they had managed to drag her off her horse?


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## GirlFriday (22 November 2017)

Luci07 there is no indication whatsoever that they tried to drag her off. 

Given that she and the juvenile were mounted they were more than able to move away from people walking along on foot.


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## ycbm (22 November 2017)

Luci07 said:



			She stayed back to safeguard a young juvenile and they were separated from the others. What do you think these people would have done if they had managed to drag her off her horse?
		
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Have you watched the video? She did not stay back anywhere. She deliberately approached the sabs before the rein grabbing event, and after it she charged a retreating group of sabs from behind!


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## Amirah (22 November 2017)

ycbm said:



			Have you watched the video? She did not stay back anywhere. She deliberately approached the sabs before the rein grabbing event, and after it she charged a retreating group of sabs from behind!
		
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This is exactly what she was doing, I watched the whole video, using the horse to try and ride people down. She rides that unfortunate horse with zero care or consideration, yanking it round with the gag, digging in the spurs, forcing it into the sabs. Poor horse, what a horrible woman she is. Shame on her.


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## GemG (22 November 2017)

Amirah said:



			This is exactly what she was doing, I watched the whole video, using the horse to try and ride people down. She rides that unfortunate horse with zero care or consideration, yanking it round with the gag, digging in the spurs, forcing it into the sabs. Poor horse, what a horrible woman she is. Shame on her.
		
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Forget the whole pro hunt/anti hunt thing .... She appears to have put herself in that situation willingly, it was as if she was looking for a fight. Atrocious horsemanship  (poor horse, who was an absolute saint by all accounts).   No one should be grabbing anyone's reins of course, but she certainly behaved awfully.  Then needlessly riding  your horse at people?  Really, what if one had fell and got his/her head stood on.  Oh dear.  Could have ended in culpable homicide... and for what. 

Better to have just ridden on (away) surely.


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## GemG (22 November 2017)

* original post has sparked a fair bit of debate ;-)


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## sunleychops (22 November 2017)

I would have gotten off said horse and smashed him one in the face.

All these balaclava clad morons intimidating women and children is ridiculous yet somehow legal.

Imagine if people just started clammering round their house in a balaclava just to 'monitor' them


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## Ceriann (22 November 2017)

Having watched the video just now I'm struggling to see how the rider can justify the fiasco that unfolded.  Forget the hunting debate, she could avoided that whole situation simply by not riding into that group, resulting in the rein grabbing etc.  An avoidable situation that got way out of hand.  Why put yourself and your horse in that situation is beyond me.


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## mustardsmum (22 November 2017)

sunleychops said:



			I would have gotten off said horse and smashed him one in the face.

All these balaclava clad morons intimidating women and children is ridiculous yet somehow legal.

Imagine if people just started clammering round their house in a balaclava just to 'monitor' them
		
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Really? So your response to your perceived intimidation on this video would be to "smash him one in the face". You know, you, the "balaclava clad morons" and the woman on the horse are really not so dissimilar..... What you have just said, and several others on here, is that it's okay for one side to be violent, but not the other?? Irrespective of what side you are on, pro or anti, this is not the answer and while the hunting community allow its members to behave like this, they cannot even begin to expect public sympathy - irrespective of what led up to this outburst. For what it's worth, I watched the video, I have my own opinion which is if one of my kids were the juvenile with this woman, I would be outraged by her behaviour in front of them. Just because you ride a horse, it doesn't give you the moral high ground to take matters into your own hands.


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## GemG (23 November 2017)

mustardsmum said:



			Really? So your response to your perceived intimidation on this video would be to "smash him one in the face". You know, you, the "balaclava clad morons" and the woman on the horse are really not so dissimilar..... What you have just said, and several others on here, is that it's okay for one side to be violent, but not the other?? Irrespective of what side you are on, pro or anti, this is not the answer and while the hunting community allow its members to behave like this, they cannot even begin to expect public sympathy - irrespective of what led up to this outburst. For what it's worth, I watched the video, I have my own opinion which is if one of my kids were the juvenile with this woman, I would be outraged by her behaviour in front of them. Just because you ride a horse, it doesn't give you the moral high ground to take matters into your own hands.
		
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Absolutely this ^^^


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## Caol Ila (23 November 2017)

If anyone is interested in a bit of cultural anthropology, check out the thread on this incident posted on the Chronicle of the Horse, an American forum: https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/...rotestors-don-t-mess-with-a-huntwoman-s-horse

As an American expat myself, I think it's interesting that no one on that thread queries the rider's actions or her horsemanship and everyone piles in to blame the sab.  I suppose it comes out of the view that private property rights are sacrosanct -- no such thing as a public footpath or right of way (and the right to roam in Scotland is simply unthinkable) and shooting at someone on your land is seen as reasonable.


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## GirlFriday (23 November 2017)

So, there'll be a reason you no longer live there, right? ;-)

They also chop the ears off puppies and mutilate the feet of TWH - scary place.


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## Bojingles (23 November 2017)

Caol Ila said:



			If anyone is interested in a bit of cultural anthropology, check out the thread on this incident posted on the Chronicle of the Horse, an American forum: https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/...rotestors-don-t-mess-with-a-huntwoman-s-horse

As an American expat myself, I think it's interesting that no one on that thread queries the rider's actions or her horsemanship and everyone piles in to blame the sab.  I suppose it comes out of the view that private property rights are sacrosanct -- no such thing as a public footpath or right of way (and the right to roam in Scotland is simply unthinkable) and shooting at someone on your land is seen as reasonable.
		
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I would imagine their strong culture of hunting (pretty much anything and everything) would have something to do with it as well.


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## Antw23uk (23 November 2017)

Caol Ila said:



			If anyone is interested in a bit of cultural anthropology, check out the thread on this incident posted on the Chronicle of the Horse, an American forum: https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/...rotestors-don-t-mess-with-a-huntwoman-s-horse

As an American expat myself, I think it's interesting that no one on that thread queries the rider's actions or her horsemanship and everyone piles in to blame the sab.  I suppose it comes out of the view that private property rights are sacrosanct -- no such thing as a public footpath or right of way (and the right to roam in Scotland is simply unthinkable) and shooting at someone on your land is seen as reasonable.
		
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I didnt read very far but what a cracking idea .. remove stirrup leather and wack away with metal stirrup iron .. Im so remembering that, lol!


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## Hanno Verian (23 November 2017)

GirlFriday said:



			Luci07 there is no indication whatsoever that they tried to drag her off. 

Given that she and the juvenile were mounted they were more than able to move away from people walking along on foot.
		
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There are two scenarios here:

a. Brave woman sees child separated from main body of hunt and rides into the fray to enable the child to get to safety, attempt is made to drag her off her horse and she defends herself.

b. P***ed of rider loses it with protestors who have spoilt her day out.

The event might have been a. which is the argument put forward by her husband, the edited video shows b. we don't see any attempt to drag her off her horse, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that it wasn't shown in a version that has been framed and spliced together to support the narrative that the Sabs want to promote. Quite simply we don't know, I think its utterly wrong to condemn her unless we have the whole picture, which we don't. 

Its a bit like people asking why armed police don't shoot the gun out of the hand of an armed suspect, based on having seen someone do it in a John Wayne film. 

Comments have been made about masked demonstrators in London, the police wouldn't be interested - no problem with that, but masked individuals behaving in an intimidating manner, this is entirely different and yes they would be interested.

The comment has been made about the US take on this in Chronicle of the Horse - quite simply they would have run the chance of being shot. Hunts in N Ireland weren't troubled by masked protestors during the troubles, for the same reason.


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## Caol Ila (23 November 2017)

Someone on the US thread did suggest that if the rider wanted to claim self-defense in court, she would have been better off using a gun.  Is America a great country or what?


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## Mule (23 November 2017)

I don't understand all the fuss about hunting in the UK. If hunts aren't following the law why not let the police deal with it? The idea of groups of people following hunts around the countryside seems ridiculous. 

I love animals but I can't imagine traipsing around the countryside trying to save wild animals. Perhaps it's a cultural difference?


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## ester (23 November 2017)

Well because the police tend to give it rather low priority, given that they don't generally investigate burglaries etc in a lot of areas what are the chances of them actually being in field to get sufficient evidence to prosecute a hunt? That and the legislation is rather flimsy too anyway.
This obviously annoys some people, particularly the ones who spent a long time campaigning for a 'ban' got one, but think it then isn't being upheld.


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## Hanno Verian (24 November 2017)

mule said:



			I don't understand all the fuss about hunting in the UK. If hunts aren't following the law why not let the police deal with it? The idea of groups of people following hunts around the countryside seems ridiculous. 

I love animals but I can't imagine traipsing around the countryside trying to save wild animals. Perhaps it's a cultural difference?
		
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The point is that the police aren't interested / competent / resourced to police hunting.

There are a whole range of people who have appointed themselves to do the job for the police, the acceptable face of this are people who legitimately make their views known to hunts and gather evidence of any alleged breach of the law to present to the police and/or any other body who can initiate proceedings, but they gather their evidence legally they may be vocal but don't trespass, use intimidation or violence. The opposite end of the spectrum believe that they can take the law into their own hands and that violence and intimidation is justified in the name of protecting foxes or preventing "Toffs" having a day out. Their tactics can be brutal can injure children, horses and hounds alike, but the end justifies the means - its the same mentality as the poor lady in Wales who's house was attacked because they discovered she was a paediatrician!


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## Judgemental (24 November 2017)

This whole situation deepens, bearing in mind the following:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-repeatedly-whipped-saboteur-riding-crop.html

A huntswoman filmed repeatedly whipping a protester with a riding crop launched a foul-mouthed rant at hunt saboteurs just three weeks before the alleged attack. Jane Miller (left), whose partner Richard Goring (inset) is part of the UK's oldest family hotel dynasty, screamed 'get off my horse' and lashed out at the man on a hunt in Herstmonceux, East Sussex, in the first video. Police today confirmed they will speak to Mrs Miller about the incident at Pevensey Marshes on Saturday (right). Now new footage has emerged showing the 56-year-old screaming '*******ing terrorists', '******* off' in a second video nasty.

The age differentials are somewhat and unusually  well trailed.

Me thinks this one is going run for a while.  

Thing is, from my experience, Sabs generally tend to repeatedly target a hunt or individuals for a reason?

Definitely there appears to be a very deep seated issue and it is not doing hunting any favours. 

This Jane Miller, needs to be spoken to by the MFHA as to her conduct and whether she is bringing hunting into disrepute. Similarly the Masters and Secretary of the hunt need to be spoken to by the MFHA and questioned, as to whether they are satisfied what is going on  is  fit, proper and whether they are exercising reasonable control within the general tenets of the association.  

This forum is a breath of 'fresh air' to the hunting forum I normally inhabit.


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## RaposadeGengibre (24 November 2017)

If she has been repeatedly targeted, no wonder she blown her gasket.


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## Judgemental (24 November 2017)

mule said:



			I don't understand all the fuss about hunting in the UK. If hunts aren't following the law why not let the police deal with it? The idea of groups of people following hunts around the countryside seems ridiculous. 

I love animals but I can't imagine traipsing around the countryside trying to save wild animals. Perhaps it's a cultural difference?
		
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Whilst on the face of what is evidenced in the video's, and not excusing Jane Miller who needs some sound advice, which I would happily dispense.

Clearly, the core problem is the rising of revolutionary types, who are determined to overthrow the the established order of this great nation.

Attacking very wealthy people who hunt, is always a favoured tactic and are always  able to stir up a significant uprising, albeit targeted at the equestrian world.

Largely because people who have horses are perceived to be wealthy.

The various players for the sabs, whose names are synonymous with the historical annals of being saboteurs  and are absolute masters, at quietly firstly observing and then targeting folk, who are likely to rise to their bait and certainly Jane Miller has spectacularly risen. 

This is typical when the government has a weak majority and the police are stretched in terms of personnel and money.


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## Cecile (24 November 2017)

What is a peasanty lol

I want to be a peasanty it sounds sort of nice

On the anti's face book or whatever, it says they will be going back again but agreed no foxes were involved during the hunt on the day of the whipping, maybe she is the missing link as to why they wish to go there, who knows?!  I'm busy learning how to be a peasanty


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## mle22 (24 November 2017)

The peasantry are revolting!


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## Cecile (24 November 2017)

mle22 said:



			The peasantry are revolting!
		
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Yes peasantry has quite some history attached to it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peasant

but what is peasanty, so far all I have found is a restaurant called the peasanty


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## Keith_Beef (14 February 2018)

Wow, what a long thread.

I've been unable to find any reporting of this incident other than in the Daily Fail.

If anybody has any *reliable* information about this, I'd like to read it, especially if there has been any decision to prosecute Miller or the rein-grabber over the incident.


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