# New horse declared loss of use due to old injury



## Horse1979 (15 March 2017)

Hi all, 
Looking for some advise.
I purchased a horse in December. Went through 5 stage vetting no problem. He was brought to do PC activities, dressage, sj, XC, one day events. 
After a month he had a subtle lameness which we thought maybe  he had hurt himself in field. It was only in walk. A few weeks passed and it would come and go so decided to get it checked out. Long story short- he has been with vet for two days, nerve blocks, X-rays, scans. He has severe suspensory damage to right hind and vet says he will be declared loss of use. He is only in light ish work at the moment with my daughter being at school and nights dark in the winter. 
He was purchased in December. He was not a cheap pony, all in all around £8,000. Vet says injury is old- looks like impact injury. 
I am too angry to speak to old owners as I am positive they have sold him in the hope the injury would be fine. Where do I stand? My daughter has spent 3 months bonding, having weekly dressage lessons( he hasn't been easiest of ponies either) all new tack, rugs, bridles as he was a lot bigger than previous pony. General heart ache for her. 
Do I have a case against them? If so what's my first steps? 
I'm so angry- and want justice. 
Owning a pony for 6 years you would have thought they would have wanted what is best for the pony rather than sell him for a lot of money when the poor pony is not up to the job. 
Any help or advise would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.


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## meleeka (15 March 2017)

If his old  vet records show the injury then I think you'd have some come back, but as the 5 stage vetting was clear they could argue that it was all healed when you bought him so didn't need to be declared. 
I think I'd want proper legal advice. As you say it's not as if he was cheap.


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## AdorableAlice (15 March 2017)

I would refer this to a specialist equine solicitor. Did you or your examining vet ask to see the existing veterinary records of the pony pre vetting ?


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## ycbm (15 March 2017)

I'd go one further and say that the timing of the lameness suggests that the pony might have been medicated for the vetting. I would check with your vet quickly whether the bloods are still available for testing.  Such an upsetting thing for your daughter, and very annoying.


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## Horse1979 (15 March 2017)

meleeka said:



			If his old  vet records show the injury then I think you'd have some come back, but as the 5 stage vetting was clear they could argue that it was all healed when you bought him so didn't need to be declared. 
I think I'd want proper legal advice. As you say it's not as if he was cheap.
		
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Thanks meleeka. I'm going to find an equine law specialist today. 
Don't think I will stop until I get some justice.
It's people like this who give the horse world its bad name.


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## FfionWinnie (15 March 2017)

You can get 3hrs free legal advice per incident, on the phone, if you are a BHS gold member.


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## Horse1979 (15 March 2017)

ycbm said:



			I'd go one further and say that the timing of the lameness suggests that the pony might have been medicated for the vetting. I would check with your vet quickly whether the bloods are still available for testing.  Such an upsetting thing for your daughter, and very annoying.
		
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I'm going to call vets today and ask for bloods to be run. I think I have up to 6 months. The fact he started to go lame within a few weeks due to the work load ( 3 rides per week) would suggest he either had just come back into work when I got him or that they medicated him. So frustrating when they sell pony fit for a competition home.


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## Goldenstar (15 March 2017)

Suspensorys usually don't medicate very well .
But I would defiantly be checking the blood that's was taken at the vetting .if that's clear is down to your insurance .
You then need to claim loss of use it's possible the insurance company may try to wriggle out of it it depends on their attitude .
Your vet will help you with this .
I have been through a loss of use claim with Fatty .
Two vets here made the initial diagnosis and he had three months of treatment when the issue had still not resolved the insurance company referred him on the a vet uni where two specialists worked him up and wrote reports .
LOU was agreed with the owner who took eighty per cent of the insured sum and gave the horse to me .
He was freeze marked with an L in a circle .


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## Horse1979 (15 March 2017)

I didn't ask to see any vets records- and as far as I know nor did the vet I used to carry out the vetting. 
I'm going to try and located their vet today and any vet near to them to see if they have ever treated pony. Unsure if they will tell me but worth a go.


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## Horse1979 (15 March 2017)

Excellent. Yes I'm a member so will call them this morning. Thank you!


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## Horse1979 (15 March 2017)

Thank you. The vets have said if they treated him he wouldn't be fit for purpose after as he couldn't compete due to the nature of the operation they are excluded from competing. 
I am going to call my insurance this morning with an update and when I collect pony later from vets she said she will go through verythign with me. Just feel so angry that previous owners knew all along!


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## TheMule (15 March 2017)

Horse1979 said:



			I didn't ask to see any vets records- and as far as I know nor did the vet I used to carry out the vetting. 
I'm going to try and located their vet today and any vet near to them to see if they have ever treated pony. Unsure if they will tell me but worth a go.
		
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They won't tell you. Your easiest first step is to contact the vet who vetted him, discuss the issue and ask for bloods to be run.
Tbh, if they are clear you will be highly unlikely to have any come back as you cannot prove it was an existing injury


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## Goldenstar (15 March 2017)

Horse1979 said:



			I didn't ask to see any vets records- and as far as I know nor did the vet I used to carry out the vetting. 
I'm going to try and located their vet today and any vet near to them to see if they have ever treated pony. Unsure if they will tell me but worth a go.
		
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No they ought not tell you their contract is with the old owner .
How long had he been in his last home .
Did you ask about what vets treatment he had had in his old home and what was said .
Does your vet think he has had a neurectomy ?


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## Horse1979 (15 March 2017)

He was with his previous owner for 6 years. Competed in very high level dressage in Ireland so is well known. I asked about any health issues etc and was told just routine appointments. 
My vet hasn't said she think it's been treated- she thinks lightly happened last year and wa stunned away before I brought him.


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## Dancing_Diva (15 March 2017)

Depending on how good and helpful the vets are they may say they'll contact the previous owner for permission to give you the horses old veterinary records. 

A mare I was given last year I wanted her vet records from a previous owner, they kept ignoring me or giving me reasons they couldn't give permission to their vets. One phone call to the vets, vets phoned previous owners asking permission to release records to me and within half an hour of first phone call I had all records needed. Get your vets to check bloods then try the horses old vets.


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## Horse1979 (15 March 2017)

That's good to hear. I will call them this morning. 
I'm wondering they if they have used a different vet to treat the injury- away from there regular vet!!! I feel the have gone to great depths of deceit.


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## Goldenstar (15 March 2017)

TBH you are where you are .
The pony is insured and seeing if you can get a LOU claim through and moving on with your life may well be the best way forward .
Many experianced people have the ability to feel a horse is not right chuck it out for a while and then move it on after a rest , there may well be no vets records nothing may have been done .
Suspensorys injuries are funny things and can be diffcult to detect horse can work on with them for years it's possible nothing dishonest has gone on .


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## ManBearPig (15 March 2017)

Horse1979 said:



			He was with his previous owner for 6 years. Competed in very high level dressage in Ireland so is well known.
		
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Are there any gaps in his competition record that could help identify when the injury occurred?


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## Horse1979 (15 March 2017)

Yes! I think I've identified a gap at the end of 2015 - I brought him at end of 2016. X


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## ManBearPig (15 March 2017)

Did you ask the previous owners about the time off and what did they say about it? Did the horse return to competition successfully afterwards? If he did, I don't think you would have much ground to claim he had been missold. Definitely worth getting the bloods looked at though.


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## Sussexbythesea (15 March 2017)

I had a similar issue with a previous horse. It passed a 5 stage vetting by a very well known and respected vet and within 6 months it was lame. I believe it had also not been in work because work made the problem come out. I had it investigated and when I was at the vets one of the nurses said innocently "isn't he the one who got hit by a car?". 

He'd been hit in the chest - the scars I'd been told were barbed wire cuts. No mention of a car. It turned out he'd escaped his field as a 3 year old. The thing was I noticed symptoms from the moment I bought him as the saddle always went over to one side (muscle wastage always there but not picked up at vetting) I thought it was the saddle. Soon after buying he dragged his feet going down hill. This is when I began to find out about Wobblers. It's likely the impact caused the compression of the spine in his neck. 

I thought about trying to take the vets to court because frankly I think the vetting should have picked some of these things up I even said "he stands a bit funny when resting is that indicative of an issue?" Or the seller because they must have known there was a problem. 

Anyway I decided proving that he had it before I got him was difficult if not impossible plus I loved him and wanted to try and see if he came right. Luckily I had loss of use and after a year or so of trying various therapies I successfully claimed it. It was a hellish time though.


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## hopscotch bandit (15 March 2017)

Sussexbythesea said:



			I had a similar issue with a previous horse. It passed a 5 stage vetting by a very well known and respected vet and within 6 months it was lame. I believe it had also not been in work because work made the problem come out. I had it investigated and when I was at the vets one of the nurses said innocently "isn't he the one who got hit by a car?". 

He'd been hit in the chest - the scars I'd been told were barbed wire cuts. No mention of a car. It turned out he'd escaped his field as a 3 year old. The thing was I noticed symptoms from the moment I bought him as the saddle always went over to one side (muscle wastage always there but not picked up at vetting) I thought it was the saddle. Soon after buying he dragged his feet going down hill. This is when I began to find out about Wobblers. It's likely the impact caused the compression of the spine in his neck. 

I thought about trying to take the vets to court because frankly I think the vetting should have picked some of these things up I even said "he stands a bit funny when resting is that indicative of an issue?" Or the seller because they must have known there was a problem. 

Anyway I decided proving that he had it before I got him was difficult if not impossible plus I loved him and wanted to try and see if he came right. Luckily I had loss of use and after a year or so of trying various therapies I successfully claimed it. It was a hellish time though.
		
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Gosh all this sounds dreadful.Just proves that having a vetting is sometimes useless despite best intentions if there has been every intention to hide facts in the first place by the vendor.some people are so dishonest in life.Awful stories on this thread about how people have been deceived it must be totally heartbreaking for those affected, especially when bond with new horse has been made.


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## Cortez (15 March 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			TBH you are where you are .
The pony is insured and seeing if you can get a LOU claim through and moving on with your life may well be the best way forward .
Many experianced people have the ability to feel a horse is not right chuck it out for a while and then move it on after a rest , there may well be no vets records nothing may have been done .
Suspensorys injuries are funny things and can be diffcult to detect horse can work on with them for years it's possible nothing dishonest has gone on .
		
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This ^^^ is sound advice. Did you buy the pony from Ireland?


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## Sugar_and_Spice (15 March 2017)

Horse1979 said:



			He was with his previous owner for 6 years. Competed in very high level dressage in Ireland so is well known. I asked about any health issues etc and was told just routine appointments. 
My vet hasn't said she think it's been treated- she thinks lightly happened last year and wa stunned away before I brought him.
		
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Proving they knew about the suspensory damage and didn't declare it might be difficult.  It could be they *didn't* know, just had an episode of lameness, decided to turn away rather than investigate the cause, then sold him on once sound.  It could be true the horse only saw the vet for routine appointments.  Even though you asked about "health issues" that's a bit foggy because if they believed it to be a one-off episode of lameness that was now resolved, it wouldn't be an ongoing health issue.  If you'd asked them "has he ever been lame?" and they'd lied and you could prove it, that would be different.

I'd ask the insurance to fund any treatment and hope they pay out, becauase maybe the current lameness episode doesn't count as a pre-existing condition if he was sound at purchase?  You could then sell on as a useful working animal, though not for competition due to the nature of the treatment.  If you go for loss of use would the insurance not be more likely to investigate a bit more?  Finding out he was unfit for competition ages ago and saying it's a pre-existing condition and refuse to pay out.  Not entirely sure how insurance works.

ETA: you mentioned a vetting.  If it was 5 stage, don't they have to be galloped about for that?  So the horse was fit/in work, or did you gallop an unfit horse?  If the horse was fit, in work and sound it's going to be hard proving the previous owners deliberately deceived you.  If the horse was galloped around whilst unfit, could that not have been the start of the problem this time around?  It's generally accepted that galloping an unfit horse is bad for their legs.


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## FestiveFuzz (15 March 2017)

OP I really feel for you and your daughter. 

I've just been through similar and it was the most emotionally draining and heartbreaking experience. I bought my dream horse at the start of last summer, she was only 5, newly broken (but turned away that winter) and our plans were to do high level dressage. She cost around about what your pony has and was 5 stage vetted by both myself (own vet used) and the reputable dressage dealer I was buying from...she passed with flying colours both times. Literally a month and 3 days later she came in from the field with an acute tear to her DDFT. Scans showed mineralisation present in both forelegs which would suggest a pre-exisiting condition, but my concern with pursuing it as such was that I ran the risk of acknowledging to the insurers that I felt it could be pre-existing and therefore would lose any option to claim. I also wasn't convinced that the breeder or seller had deceived me, although I did sometimes wonder if there was a reason she'd been turned away that winter. It was one massive grey area, so I followed my heart and did whatever I could to give my mare the best possible chances of recovery. Unfortunately for us it didn't work out, as as soon as the DDFT healed she did her SDFT in the same leg. After a lot of soul searching and a struggle to keep her sound we made the devastating decision to PTS. We didn't have LOU and I refuse to add up exactly how much money I've lost in the 9 months I had her but I know it was a lot. I've just marked it up as incredibly bad luck and consoled myself with the fact I did everything I possibly could to make her better. 

In your shoes I'd push to get the bloods tested and go from there. If they show signs of doping I'd do everything I could to make the seller/owner accountable for passing on a horse with a known injury as sound, but if they're clear I think I'd probably just accept the LOU payment as I think you'll struggle to prove anything given he passed a 5 stage vetting. 

Best of luck whatever you decide.


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## Tangaroo (15 March 2017)

Might sound silly but do the previous owners have a Facebook page? Or their daughter?  When i look for horses i always ask the persons name and look them up on FB. Its amazing how many people don't have their security settings set for friends only and I've found out all sorts of lies about horses I've been planning to go and see and once I've read that i cancel the viewing!  It might be they have said something on there about pony being injured or turned away. Worth a look!


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## conniegirl (15 March 2017)

Horse1979 said:



			Thank you. The vets have said if they treated him he wouldn't be fit for purpose after as he couldn't compete due to the nature of the operation they are excluded from competing. 
I am going to call my insurance this morning with an update and when I collect pony later from vets she said she will go through verythign with me. Just feel so angry that previous owners knew all along!
		
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I dont know any society that will stop you competing if your horse has had an operation provided it is healed and the horse is sound.


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## Lb1996 (15 March 2017)

OP last year I went through a very similar situation to you with a new (not cheap either) pony who very quickly went wrong after purchasing even though passing a 5 star vetting. Well done for trusting your gut and getting him to the vets. The vets should store the blood test from the vetting for 6 months get them screened asap. 

In regards to old vetinary records I found out that the old owner must give you consent to have access to these records. Most vets will require the old owner to put in writing that you are allowed access to them. So unfortunately you must go back to the old owner to get these. 

When we sought legal advice we were told we would have more of a case against the practice who vetted him rather than the old owners. Keep any videos you have of when you went to try the pony as these can be used and examined by your vet to see if they can pick anything up from how the pony is moving/ behaving. 

Our pony also competed in high levee dressage from a young age and the vet explained that suspensory damage was very common in dressage horses as their hocks have been under a lot of pressure since a young age. He said he has heard of a few cases where experienced people can see it coming and move the horse on before they are left with an unsellable horse and have vet records for the old owners to come after them with.

There was also a gap in the competition record of our pony which we recently found out was a period when he was sold then sent back for the same issues he presented to us.

I really feel for you and the stress, heartbreak and anger that you'll be feeling. It really does make you wonder about people wanting the best for their pony when you hear of these situations. The saddest part I found was that the poor pony in the middle of it all was not right and in pain yet money came before all that on the old owners agenda.  All the best hopefully it will work out for you and you will discover what went on and have a case.


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## eggs (15 March 2017)

conniegirl said:



			I dont know any society that will stop you competing if your horse has had an operation provided it is healed and the horse is sound.
		
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You can't compete at BD if the horse has been denerved.


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## Lb1996 (15 March 2017)

conniegirl said:



			I dont know any society that will stop you competing if your horse has had an operation provided it is healed and the horse is sound.
		
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Our pony would have been unable to compete under be, Bsja and bd rules if he had had the de-Nerving surgery recommended despite if he made full recovery and was able to compete again. I'm sure there are similar cases


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## milliepops (15 March 2017)

well the rules around limb sensitivity are there in the FEI rules, it's not specifically mentioned in BD rulebook nor BS IIRC but it is in the BE one.
However, the scars left from PSD neurectomy are so tiny it would be hard to detect and I think it's widely know that there are lots of horses out competing after they've had the op.  I'm not condoning this but it does happen.
I think this is quite different to denerving a hoof FWIW.


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## wingedhorse (15 March 2017)

Lb1996 said:



			Our pony would have been unable to compete under be, Bsja and bd rules if he had had the de-Nerving surgery recommended despite if he made full recovery and was able to compete again. I'm sure there are similar cases
		
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I run a FB group of over 1,500 members for discussion of PSD (proximal suspensory desmitis) focused on hind limb PSD.

It is NOT true you cannot compete a horse that has had hind limb suspensory related neurectomy surgery (there have been some rule changes / clarifications). 

Hind limb neurectomy suspensory surgery cuts a very small branch nerve, and it is not detectable it has been done, as there is normal feeling on the outside of the whole of the leg. 

Totally different to a large scale neurectomy of a main nerve in the leg to fully denerve leg or foot.

You can legally compete a horse that has had hind limb suspensory related neurectomy surgery BD, BE, BS and Endurance. 

And most probably FEI too (the rules say if challenged must be able to demonstrate there is feeling in the leg, and if are non-reactive areas could be disqualified, but because hind limb suspensory related neurectomy is a small internal nerve, it can be  assumed would be fine, and not cause outer limb loss of sensation). 

OP if your vets are giving you the advice that hind limb suspensory denerving will prevent you from competing the horse, they are WRONG, definitively. It is no longer the case. Whether surgery is the right thing for you and the horse,  and whether horse will stand up to future competition is a different question. 

Assuming it is hind suspensory neurectomy we are talking about, and assuming you are now in England? Other countries may be different.


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## conniegirl (15 March 2017)

Lb1996 said:



			Our pony would have been unable to compete under be, Bsja and bd rules if he had had the de-Nerving surgery recommended despite if he made full recovery and was able to compete again. I'm sure there are similar cases
		
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I did not know that, would be interesting to find out how the society would find out though.


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## hopscotch bandit (15 March 2017)

conniegirl said:



			I did not know that, would be interesting to find out how the society would find out though.
		
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Because in this life there is always some sad person that will be willing to dob on others sad though it is. Makes them feel worthwhile and self important.They are normally the jealous type. sad realy.


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## be positive (15 March 2017)

hopscotch bandit said:



			Because in this life there is always some sad person that will be willing to dob on others sad though it is. Makes them feel worthwhile and self important.They are normally the jealous type. sad realy.
		
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Horses that have been denerved were banned from competing for welfare reasons, if it takes a "sad person" to dob in someone breaking the rules to bring it to the attention of the organisers then so be it, I do agree that there is a difference between denerving the hind suspensories rather than the older and now less common denerving of the feet but the rules were put in place before denerving of the suspensories was an option, times move on so rules change but the welfare of the horse must ALWAYS be the priority.


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## ester (15 March 2017)

Winged horse is correct they are not banned from competing


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## Equine_Dream (15 March 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			TBH you are where you are .
The pony is insured and seeing if you can get a LOU claim through and moving on with your life may well be the best way forward .
Many experianced people have the ability to feel a horse is not right chuck it out for a while and then move it on after a rest , there may well be no vets records nothing may have been done .
Suspensorys injuries are funny things and can be diffcult to detect horse can work on with them for years it's possible nothing dishonest has gone on .
		
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This! If you bought from a private seller I would think it would be quite a long difficult road to get "justice". Just put a LOU claim with your insurance and move on. Its frustrating for you and your daughter but it will be even more frustrating to come out of a long legal battle with nothing. 
The one I really feel for in all this is the poor pony


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## hopscotch bandit (15 March 2017)

be positive said:



			Horses that have been denerved were banned from competing for welfare reasons, if it takes a "sad person" to dob in someone breaking the rules to bring it to the attention of the organisers then so be it, I do agree that there is a difference between denerving the hind suspensories rather than the older and now less common denerving of the feet but the rules were put in place before denerving of the suspensories was an option, times move on so rules change but the welfare of the horse must ALWAYS be the priority.
		
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Thank you but I was talking about now the FEI rules being changed so that you can legal compete a horse that has had hind limb suspensory related neurectomy surgery which is what one of the above posters mentioned!!


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## Horse1979 (15 March 2017)

Pony is FEI registered. And I'm told can't compete following surgery.
Above all- the poor pony has been sold to me to make money! No consideration for him at all which I find very sad indeed. I have done some digging around and a vet has told me the old owners were getting pain relief drug from a near by vets but couldn't disclose why. 
All bloods are now being run and results back next Wednesday. 
Thanks fir all your replays


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## Goldenstar (15 March 2017)

They can't do FEI if they have their hocks denerved .
I should think many are taking part who have had the procedure .

OP let's see what Wednesday brings .
If there's drugs in the blood it's going to be very hard .


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## luckyoldme (15 March 2017)

Horse1979 said:



			Pony is FEI registered. And I'm told can't compete following surgery.
Above all- the poor pony has been sold to me to make money! No consideration for him at all which I find very sad indeed. I have done some digging around and a vet has told me the old owners were getting pain relief drug from a near by vets but couldn't disclose why. 
All bloods are now being run and results back next Wednesday. 
Thanks fir all your replays
		
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i have absolutely no informed advice to give you, I hope you get some sort of redress and the pony get s a happy ending...its just a shame that so many people these days see only pound signs.


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## alainax (15 March 2017)

Op, do you have any correspondance from the seller regarding the ponies health? "never sick or sorry" or such like in the ad? They are not allow to be deceitful so if you have some evidence make sure to save it. 

They can of course omit facts if you don't ask very specifically.


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## Ellietotz (15 March 2017)

So sorry to hear all of this. It's sad for everyone involved including pony. I hope you get the outcome you are after x


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## Luci07 (15 March 2017)

Could someone on here be 100% clear with regards to LOU in this instance? I don't have the answers and it looks like it could be a gray area. Every time you insure a new horse, as we know, you are asked with regards to pre-existing conditions (and if you have claimed before). So, my question is, what would stop the  insurance company just saying - it was a pre-existing, not picked up in a 5 * vetting - and then, how could you prove you DIDN'T know about it. I am not for 1 moment intimidating this is what happened but I wonder how an insurer would view it. Very sorry to read this. I too bought my horse of a lifetime, 5* vetted and 6 months later had a horrendous attack of uvetitis. Subsequent tests meant that my vet thinks there was scarring there before I bought my horse (although hard to see). I have lost out, insurance is maxed out and now I am managing a horse with ERU which is incredibly hard and seems to worsen.


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## poiuytrewq (15 March 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			No they ought not tell you their contract is with the old owner .
How long had he been in his last home .
Did you ask about what vets treatment he had had in his old home and what was said .
Does your vet think he has had a neurectomy ?
		
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They won't say without owners permission. Sadly been there done that admittedly with a very much cheaper horse. 
I'd ask the vendor for access to vet records. This will either (if they agree) obviously give access or if they say no I'd be definitely thinking they had something to hide.


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## Caracarrie (15 March 2017)

Its terrible that you can buy a horse without being able to see its veterinary record, but if you buy a car privately they are supposed to supply all the service documents etc. Whenever I have bought from a dealer I have always obtained the previous owner's name and managed to contact them by phone to see if the car is a good one or not - they have nothing to lose by telling the truth as it isn't their problem any more.


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## be positive (15 March 2017)

Caracarrie said:



			Its terrible that you can buy a horse without being able to see its veterinary record, but if you buy a car privately they are supposed to supply all the service documents etc. Whenever I have bought from a dealer I have always obtained the previous owner's name and managed to contact them by phone to see if the car is a good one or not - they have nothing to lose by telling the truth as it isn't their problem any more.
		
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It is relatively normal to buy without seeing the veterinary records but there is no reason to buy the horse if you ask for them and the vendor refuses access, in this case it seems that the records were not asked for anyway so not really relevant, buying a horse is so different from buying a car there really is no comparison. 
It may become more common for vendors to offer access to veterinary history but many people have no idea they can ask for them whether they are buying or selling.


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## sport horse (15 March 2017)

Caracarrie said:



			Its terrible that you can buy a horse without being able to see its veterinary record, but if you buy a car privately they are supposed to supply all the service documents etc. Whenever I have bought from a dealer I have always obtained the previous owner's name and managed to contact them by phone to see if the car is a good one or not - they have nothing to lose by telling the truth as it isn't their problem any more.
		
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It is up to the purchaser to ask to see its veterinary record. If the vendor declines to allow this I think you can draw your own conclusions. 

However we are talking of the 'dodgy' horse world (many others too) and many people will have had horses/ponies treated with a different name and/or various veterinary practices, so the record you get given may not show all the story. 

I am very sorry for the OP. Maybe the bloods will show something maybe not. At least with a 5 star vetting and insurance they should get something back from someone.


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## conniegirl (15 March 2017)

Caracarrie said:



			Its terrible that you can buy a horse without being able to see its veterinary record, but if you buy a car privately they are supposed to supply all the service documents etc. Whenever I have bought from a dealer I have always obtained the previous owner's name and managed to contact them by phone to see if the car is a good one or not - they have nothing to lose by telling the truth as it isn't their problem any more.
		
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Its perfectly normal to see cars advertised as "no service history" or "partial Service history" there is no legal requirement to give the service history over. Its very easy to "misplace" an inconvenient service history, just as it is to hide an unfavorable vet history.

I currently have my horse registered at 2 vets. 1 I use for vaccines only as I dont think much of thier knowledge at all but they do very cheap call out and vaccines, the other I use for everything else as I trust them but thier call out is nearly triple that of the other vet and they dont do shared visits.
If I were a dodgy seller (which I'm not, my boy stays with me for the rest of his days) it would be very easy to "forget" to mention the second vet and all that would show on the vet history for the first vet is his annual jabs.


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## ihatework (15 March 2017)

Horse1979 said:



			Pony is FEI registered. And I'm told can't compete following surgery.
Above all- the poor pony has been sold to me to make money! No consideration for him at all which I find very sad indeed. I have done some digging around and a vet has told me the old owners were getting pain relief drug from a near by vets but couldn't disclose why. 
All bloods are now being run and results back next Wednesday. 
Thanks fir all your replays
		
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Good luck, I hope you nail them


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## Pigeon (15 March 2017)

conniegirl said:



			I dont know any society that will stop you competing if your horse has had an operation provided it is healed and the horse is sound.
		
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Pretty sure you cant compete a horse at BE that's had a neurectomy.


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## popsdosh (15 March 2017)

Pigeon said:



			Pretty sure you cant compete a horse at BE that's had a neurectomy.
		
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Nor BS or BD


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## wench (15 March 2017)

Horse1979 said:



			Pony is FEI registered. And I'm told can't compete following surgery.
Above all- the poor pony has been sold to me to make money! No consideration for him at all which I find very sad indeed. I have done some digging around and a vet has told me the old owners were getting pain relief drug from a near by vets but couldn't disclose why. 
All bloods are now being run and results back next Wednesday. 
Thanks fir all your replays
		
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Why has a vet been telling you this? Breach of data protection act, it would also wouldn't stand up in a court of law


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## Pigeon (15 March 2017)

wench said:



			Why has a vet been telling you this? Breach of data protection act, it would also wouldn't stand up in a court of law
		
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I agree - but it is telling that you got that much out of them. How difficult must it be for a vet to keep quiet if they feel their clients are selling a horse as something it is not!

We had a vet once give us a bit of a funny look about a horse,  of course he couldn't say a thing but we decided not to proceed anyway (a few things didn't quite add up) and found out later that the horse was destroyed shortly after for severe navicular. 

Not that any of this really helps your case. Personally I don't think trying to take the vendor to court is worth it, but that's a hard pill to swallow when you know they could be doing the same to the next unsuspecting person. 

Best of luck with it all OP and keep.us updated.


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## ester (15 March 2017)

Can you or popsdosh provide link/reference to the rules that cover the BD/BS/BE that means you cannot compete them because this has come up many times and my understanding has been the same as winged horse's.


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## Horse1979 (15 March 2017)

The shame of it is the pony was at such a high level in his discipline that a few people must have known about it.  Upon collecting pony from vets they have now said both back legs are severe suspensory damage and would both need operating on to see if it helps before he can be ridden again. 
Unsure what the insurance company will say. Also unsure if operating on both is advisable? Yes I was very lucky when the vet said today they had prescribed pain killers ... could be nothing but sounds too coincidental.


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## Horse1979 (15 March 2017)

I don't care if the vet shouldn't tell me this the fact they did confirms they are awful people. I doubt I will take it to court but at least I can name and shame then


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## ester (15 March 2017)

In a lot of ways, given the price of the pony it seems odd that they didn't decide to go ahead with the operation themselves, as any sort of painkiller if used was always going to wear off and potentially come back and bite them on the bum.


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## Lb1996 (15 March 2017)

How did you vet know the old owners were getting pain killers when they are in Ireland and using Irish vets? Did they ring and ask, just curious


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## Horse1979 (15 March 2017)

The area they live is tiny so I decided to call though a few vets myself . The first one I called told me!!


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## Pigeon (15 March 2017)

Just a thought but have you been in touch with previous owners? Are they being agressive about it? If it was me I'd 100% take the horse back.


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## Horse1979 (15 March 2017)

No haven't been in contact with them.
Was going to wait until bloods are back and insurance tell me what they insist I do and then contact her via a solicitor with a synopsis. 
They text each week for the first few weeks then one day she text and the pony had been refusing to jump point blank at a show. I told them this me never heard again from them! That's when my alarm bells rang as I thought pony doesn't seem right and the fact she never replied ( she had messaged me weekly till this point) I just thought it looked very dodgy!!


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## Goldenstar (15 March 2017)

ester said:



			Can you or popsdosh provide link/reference to the rules that cover the BD/BS/BE that means you cannot compete them because this has come up many times and my understanding has been the same as winged horse's.
		
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BE it's rule 10.5.3


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## ester (15 March 2017)

'A horse is not eligible to compete when:
&#8226; It has an open tracheotomy (tubed);
&#8226; A limb, or part of a limb, is hyposensitive or hypersensitive (both of which shall
constitute &#8220;abnormal limb sensivity&#8221. Hypersensitive limbs have an excessive
or abnormal reaction to palpation. Hyposensitive limbs include any alteration
in sensitivity induced by a neurectomy or chemical desensitisation *for as long
as the alteration in sensitivity persists.*
&#8226; Kinesio-taping or patches are used in any way.
'

Which is what I thought it said, what I have read in the past is that given that it is well understood that nerves regrow the 'as long as the alteration in sensitivity persists' bit is quite important, and immeasurable. It is not a blanket ban on denerved horses as some seem to have suggested, it is more complicated than that. 

Thanks for the number GS, I didn't have time earlier to go and hunt it out


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## be positive (15 March 2017)

ester said:



			'A horse is not eligible to compete when:
&#8226; It has an open tracheotomy (tubed);
&#8226; A limb, or part of a limb, is hyposensitive or hypersensitive (both of which shall
constitute &#8220;abnormal limb sensivity&#8221. Hypersensitive limbs have an excessive
or abnormal reaction to palpation. Hyposensitive limbs include any alteration
in sensitivity induced by a neurectomy or chemical desensitisation *for as long
as the alteration in sensitivity persists.*
&#8226; Kinesio-taping or patches are used in any way.
'

Which is what I thought it said, what I have read in the past is that given that it is well understood that nerves regrow the 'as long as the alteration in sensitivity persists' bit is quite important, and immeasurable. It is not a blanket ban on denerved horses as some seem to have suggested, it is more complicated than that. 

Thanks for the number GS, I didn't have time earlier to go and hunt it out 

Click to expand...

I think the interpretation is open to debate, I think the wording has changed slightly in the last few years but I was involved with buying an event horse for a client that "failed" when my vet found the tiny scars from a bilateral neurectomy, I had thought the scar I had seen was a field injury the second one was only visible when the vet clipped the hair off, he clearly stated that it should not be bought to event and we walked away reluctantly, the owner had failed to inform the agent that it had been operated on so he was also in the dark about it and extremely embarrassed, the horse was readvertised as a hunter for half the price.


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## ester (15 March 2017)

Yes, I guess that it is my point really, it is open to interpretation and is specifically not written as 'a horse with a PSD neurectomy cannot compete' which is what some seemed to be suggesting. Whether that is beause it is hard to detect or that in some cases reverses itself has never been clear but they could have written that if they wanted to and chose not to.
I can understand why one would fail a vetting if found.


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## sport horse (16 March 2017)

The fact that a vet says the old owners were getting a pain relief drug does not prove  that they were giving this drug to your pony.  Suspicious yes but proof in law - no.


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## Equine_Dream (16 March 2017)

sport horse said:



			The fact that a vet says the old owners were getting a pain relief drug does not prove  that they were giving this drug to your pony.  Suspicious yes but proof in law - no.
		
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Agreed! I also think it was wrong and definitely a breach of confidentiality for the vet to tell you this.


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## Nicnac (16 March 2017)

I think £8k for a FEI pony competing a high level in his discipline would have set off warning bells.  That is incredibly cheap!  Hope it gets sorted OP.


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## conniegirl (16 March 2017)

Nicnac said:



			I think £8k for a FEI pony competing a high level in his discipline would have set off warning bells.  That is incredibly cheap!  Hope it gets sorted OP.
		
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I was thinking that too, had a brief look on horsequest and couldnt find anything similar for less than double that


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## Goldenstar (16 March 2017)

Nicnac said:



			I think £8k for a FEI pony competing a high level in his discipline would have set off warning bells.  That is incredibly cheap!  Hope it gets sorted OP.
		
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He was very cheap .


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## Horse1979 (16 March 2017)

I negotiated well! He was not advertised for this. Due to the location it meant a flight plus few hours drive! A big risk for any potential purchaser after so many wasted journies viewing ponies that are totally not as described!


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## Irish gal (16 March 2017)

That is ridiculously cheap and would have alarm bells ringing for me.  I sell horses as an agent here in Ireland - that's the price of a nice riding horse ( low level competing), not a higher level competition horse.

Whenever a horse so experienced is sold cheap, you have to wonder why...


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## ester (16 March 2017)

You say he wasn't advertised for this? For fei? What was he advertised for? I did think it seemed several times too cheap


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## ihatework (16 March 2017)

Horse1979 said:



			I negotiated well! He was not advertised for this. Due to the location it meant a flight plus few hours drive! A big risk for any potential purchaser after so many wasted journies viewing ponies that are totally not as described!
		
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I don't think you negotiated well, I think you were had.
Good FEI are mega bucks and don't usually get sold via open advert either.

That said, if they have been dishonest in the sale, even if you were naive, then I hope they are held accountable


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## smellsofhorse (16 March 2017)

I don't think you can blame the sellers yet.
You need to speak to them.
Find out if he had been injured.
Did you get his full vet history?
It's possible he was injured and they thought had made a full recovery, the fact that he passed a 5 stage vetting suggests they thought he had recovered, or didn't know he had been injured. Or he was drugged.

Very sad for you.
Is he insured?


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## Flyermc (22 March 2017)

Did the blood results come back?


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## Horse1979 (22 March 2017)

Bloods all clear! I didn't expect that result I have to say. 
Will now be contacting old owners - he definitely had several months off work before I brought him as I have now found out. 
Very sad situation for pony-


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## ycbm (22 March 2017)

Horse1979 said:



			Bloods all clear! I didn't expect that result I have to say. 
Will now be contacting old owners - he definitely had several months off work before I brought him as I have now found out. 
Very sad situation for pony-
		
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Oh heck, you'll have a difficult fight now    Good luck, keep us updated?


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## zaminda (22 March 2017)

I wonder if they thought he would be up to work after a break. Poor pony, I would get a second opinion too, and see if it is as bad as you think.


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## Goldenstar (22 March 2017)

Mature competition horse change in management sometimes it's all needs to tip the balance .
OP you will have a difficult of it now .


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## Slightly Foxed (27 July 2017)

What was the outcome of this OP? I hope it worked out OK for you and the pony.


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## wingedhorse (27 July 2017)

deleted


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## cowgirl16 (27 July 2017)

OH RATS!!! I read every one of these posts - 9 flippin pages - and I didn't find out what happened! OP - what was the outcome??


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## Christmas Crumpet (27 July 2017)

I'm really interested to know too!!


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