# Showjumping: looks like it is correct to pivot knee and swing back lower leg!



## flyingfeet (21 July 2010)

My observation for the day (I was trying to comment on the AUW posts, but they have disappeared into the ether!)

BS members will have just received Showjumping magazine and flicking through, there was only around 2 pictures that did not show riders pivoting on the knee

I went to check out the foreign competition:-
Ludger Beerbaum






Marco Kutscher






Marcus Ehning 






The two top riders who don't have this habit are Beezie Madden: 






And Meredith Michaels-Beerbaum






Question is should you just forget your lower leg as pivoting on you knee during a jump seems to be the norm?

*Discuss*


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## kerilli (21 July 2010)

If I was jumping courses that big, and the horses were happy, I wouldn't care!

Seriously though, it's one thing to be a huge critic BUT if it is working for them, repeatedly and reliably, I am not going to criticise.  

edited to add: what really amazes me is event riders who have a different jumping style for xc cf sj, very secure forward lower leg xc, but swinging lower leg for sj. how do they remember which one they're doing?! is it purely length of stirrup leather that affects their leg position so much, so that the different style is subconscious?


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## flyingfeet (21 July 2010)

It wasn't really a criticism, its more than if you read all the books, pivoting on the knee and swinging lower leg back is identified as a fault 

However looking at reality (and not a book!) it seems that when you are jumping massive fences they are only a few riders that can keep the lower leg still.

I which case, should amateurs (moi!) stop worrying about the lower leg and just focus on the canter?


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## MegaBeast (21 July 2010)

kerilli said:



			That's exactly what's always puzzled me!  Maybe it is stirrup leather length and differing speed?  Maybe a confidence thing, I don't know.  My SJ position is identical to my XC position so I'm always ultra secure, but I only jump up to 1.05m so maybe if I was jumping "proper" fences it would differ, and maybe if I trusted my horse more!
		
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## MegaBeast (21 July 2010)

CotswoldSJ said:



			I which case, should amateurs (moi!) stop worrying about the lower leg and just focus on the canter?
		
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Sweeping generalisation, but I think those amateurs who have a swinging lower leg also pivot on their hands and throw their upper bodies forwards, whereas these top riders are still balanced and not interfering with their horses.  And they're so blooming good that the horse is pretty much guaranteed to jump off the right stride!


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## PaddyMonty (21 July 2010)

personally think all the hype over stable lower leg is correct when first learning to jump.  It aids in the development of balance and teaches rider not to throw themselves over the horses neck.  Jumps are low so no rapid movement to absorb jump acceleration is required.
once balance is acheived and the jumps go up it becomes very difficult to keep the lower leg verticle and not be left behind.
What is common to all the top SJers is that if you look at a pic as they go over the apex of the jump their leg is back to verticle given a good base for decent .  That for me is the critical bit.
XC cant really be compared to top level SJ for two reasons, 1) fences are lower (but more scary) and 2) are approached at a more forward pace which means the level of acceleration over the fence is reduced.
Add in the need for a stable base incase horse slips on takeoff (unlikely SJ on surface) and the different styles become sensible and appropriate.
JMHO


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## teddyt (21 July 2010)

Very interesting thoughts. I was always taught that your stirrup was like the ground with regards to balance- so imagine the horse being removed and if your position is unstable, such as with the lower leg slid back, then you would fall over. i.e. replicate the position on the ground dismounted and you should be able to stay in balance and not fall on your nose. take away the horse in most sj photos and the rider would be flat on their face! I dont know about the need to pivot on the knee over big jumps but to me it looks like it can hinder the horse as the rider is forward of the horses centre of balance.


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## UnaB (21 July 2010)

I personally think those pivoting their knees look to have a much more stable position than the two at the bottom who arent... Hard to tell from pics though, but just the impression i got!

I seem to do both, i have pictures of me with pivoting knee and leg swinging back over one fence, then in the same round a few fences on i have a very tidy lower leg...!  Weird!  Its not something i would worry hugely about as long as i got to the other side of the fence in one piece - me, the horse and the fence in one piece to be specific!!


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## FigJam (21 July 2010)

Is it maybe to do with the power required to clear the bigger fences?  More power and a bigger jump is going to throw your leg further back/require more leg strength to keep the lower leg forward?

Just I've usually found that my lower leg is ok the majority of the time, but when we get a funny stride (e.g. go on a long one and jump bigger than is really required or get close and really bascule up and over in a sharper arc) my lower leg is far more likely to get thrown back out of position.  Possibly due to my horse using more power to clear the fence than would have been required to jump it "normally"?

Another thought- do you see more SJ-ers with the "less stable" lower leg over a fence falling off if they do have a last minute dirty stop?  Or does their mid air lower leg not really affect their leg when approaching the fence?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 July 2010)

I think it may be to do with length of stirrups if I rack my stirrups up I actually dont feel as secure in the saddle and automatically (racing trainer dads fault) go into forward seat and dont sit on my butt.

With my stirrups the normal length for me jumping my leg goes back a bit but not to that extent and generally not any further back than my butt.

My toes turn out whne jumping tho..... need to find a way to fix this. It just happens because my leg is on tho lol!!!

Nikki xxx


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## dominobrown (21 July 2010)

Are any of the riders hampering the horse or interfering?
Therefore does it matter?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 July 2010)

dominobrown said:



			Are any of the riders hampering the horse or interfering?
Therefore does it matter?
		
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i dont think that this is the point.

i think its just the different styles we are debating not criticising anyone for using them.

Nikki xxx


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## marmalade76 (21 July 2010)

Many years ago I watched an FBHS who evented training his horse over big show jumps and he was cursing himself for allowing his lower leg to swing back, so it was obviously important to him to have his leg in the right place!

Maybe it's harded to keep your leg in the right place over such big fences.


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## LEC (21 July 2010)

The bottom two are both Americans and I believe they were both bought up on the Hunter Jumper scene where rider style is a huge part of the class so hence the very stable lower leg. I also believe George Morris is a huge exponent of this style in the USA. 
The main issue with the pivot I believe is that it throws the body forwards which if you are not jumping bigger than 1.30m minimum is a negative and you also end up being a little bit more forwards which unless you are a good rider will mean you are often in front of the horse which is not a benefit if you are learning to jump.


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## teddyt (21 July 2010)

dominobrown said:



			Are any of the riders hampering the horse or interfering?
		
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Possibly. If the lower leg were more stable and the rider in better balance then the horses *may* be able to jump better. To me, the riders often look too far forward and in theory this can hinder the horses ability to lift their forehand. many pics iv seen with the lower leg sliding back, the rider is resting their hands/arms on the neck to balance. This would also hinder the horses athletic potential imo.


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## Saratoga (21 July 2010)

I think the fact that their lower legs move backwards is totally independent from their balance of the upper body, so although the lower leg moves the balance is always there in the upper body, so it doesn't affect the horse.

It's when the lower leg moving affects the rest of the body that it becomes a problem.

And for what it's worth, trying to make your lower leg stay totally still and forwards when jumping a 1.60m on a serious jumper is pretty much impossible IME!


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## teddyt (21 July 2010)

Saratoga said:



			I think the fact that their lower legs move backwards is totally independent from their balance of the upper body, so although the lower leg moves the balance is always there in the upper body, so it doesn't affect the horse.
		
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But how can the upper body balance without legs? You need your legs to balance on. The fact that the lower leg slides back means that the rider often rests on their hands/arms to balance- the body cant hold itself in that position without support from either legs or arms.





			And for what it's worth, trying to make your lower leg stay totally still and forwards when jumping a 1.60m on a serious jumper is pretty much impossible IME!
		
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I wouldnt know, ive never gone above 1.20m!


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## Saratoga (21 July 2010)

teddyt said:



			But how can the upper body balance without legs? You need your legs to balance on. The fact that the lower leg slides back means that the rider often rests on their hands/arms to balance- the body cant hold itself in that position without support from either legs or arms.
		
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Knees and thighs, those top riders don't tend to use their hands or arms for balance!


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## dominobrown (21 July 2010)

Well it seems to work for them! I don't want to criticise some of the best show jumpers in world, jumping some of the biggest fences in the world. Are any of us really quailfied to comment, because I certainly am not!


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## Kokopelli (21 July 2010)

From what I have seen it seems more traditional to have a very secure lower leg. Look at more traditional riders they have a very secure lower leg, whereas more modern riders tend to have an insecure lower leg but this does not affect the horse.

Personally I think this comes from when they are on ponies, they don't jump properlly and throw themselves forward over the fences (especially the very young children on the 128s and 138s. That is why I think it is wrong for these kids to be jumping 1.20 on a 138 at the age of 12! This bad habbit just stays with them until they are on horses.

Thats why the two American riders have a good lower leg as they do not jump stupid heights on small ponies when they are not good enough.


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## Saratoga (21 July 2010)

Kokopelli said:



			From what I have seen it seems more traditional to have a very secure lower leg. Look at more traditional riders they have a very secure lower leg, whereas more modern riders tend to have an insecure lower leg but this does not affect the horse.
		
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I suppose it depends on your view of what's traditional. I'd call John Whittaker traditional:

http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/London+International+Horse+Show+9di74YaL0v_l.jpg


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## Kokopelli (21 July 2010)

Actually I see what you mean as I would have called John Whitaker traditional!

The best position I ever saw was from a showjumper who used to be a steeplechaser. For the life of me I cannot remember his name but I'm sure it was the steeplechasing which made him that good.

I also notice that in eventing is the most secure riders did the old format whereas the most insecure riders who you cringe at have never done the old format.


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## JoG (21 July 2010)

KoKopelli I think you may have a point...Is it more to do with where the riders got into the sport?  Is a swinging lower leg more prevalent in European riders than riders from the US?  in which case could it be related to pony jumping?

**shuffles back out of the higher realms of CR**


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## Saratoga (21 July 2010)

It's a difficult one as normally the lower leg position and how secure it is is so important! But it's important because it affects your body balance and weight distribution. I think what i am trying to say is, if it doesn't affect balance and weight distribution in any way (e.g. with the names above), then it's not a major problem?


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## Kokopelli (21 July 2010)

I'm really against pony jumping, I think its ok once the riders are like 14+ but I think the younger riders should not have classes that big, they should not go over 1m if you ask me then as they get better the jumps can get bigger. 

The problem with it is that they just given these amzing ponies which jump huge and they kinda just sit there and try to stay on their not actually learnign to ride.

This is why only 10 senior riders who competed at european level in ponies have managed to do it on horses cause when they get on horses they realise they can't ride and start knocking poles and having stops and falls.


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## Festive_Felicitations (21 July 2010)

But if you look at the OP pictures, particularly Beerbaum (er 1st pic?) and not so clearly in the nex 2 pics,  while the lower leg had slid back his weight is still firmly in his lower leg and heel and he is not resting on his hands. 
This, I think, is the key difference with less experienced riders whose leg slips back as all their weight tends to fall into their arms / shoulders so that they become very top heavy and very insecure. I agree with what others have said that the size of the fence possibly has some impact on position probably related to the efforrt put in by the horse to clear that height and staying with the horse.
Also I'm fairly sure that up untill take off their lower legs would have been in a textbook position. 

PS I love J. Whitakers position it breaks so many 'rules' yet appears to be so effective!


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## Kokopelli (21 July 2010)

Sorry gone slightly off topic! But what I'm saying is the pivot at the knee tends to come from bad riding at a young age. But as said above I don't think in any of the picture the horse and rider look unbalanced, its when the riders weight is tipped to far forward this is a problem like this :

http://www.horsehero.com/8413

Jess Mendoza (she is definatly unbalanced)


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## marmalade76 (21 July 2010)

Kokopelli said:



			I'm really against pony jumping, I think its ok once the riders are like 14+ but I think the younger riders should not have classes that big, they should not go over 1m if you ask me then as they get better the jumps can get bigger. 

The problem with it is that they just given these amzing ponies which jump huge and they kinda just sit there and try to stay on their not actually learnign to ride.

This is why only 10 senior riders who competed at european level in ponies have managed to do it on horses cause when they get on horses they realise they can't ride and start knocking poles and having stops and falls.
		
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Have to agree with this.

A fair few years ago a comp centre staged a lecture by a local junior SJer entitled 'How to get to HOYS without a single riding lesson'. It was funny how the pony that took said rider to HOYS also took every other child who rode it after her but the rider herself was never heard of again!


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## Kokopelli (21 July 2010)

I have seen some really bad accidents because of people like marmalade mentions. They need lessons, my mum said to me when I got my first pony that yes you have a pony but you have to have a weekly lesson and got to pony club! I'm sure this is the only reason I didn't find the transition to horses difficult. 

Its not like these people haven't got the money to have lessons they have like 50k ponies! And they are "too good for pony club"!


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## shark1 (21 July 2010)

more of a QR to the original post - 

its really hard to keep the 'perfect' lower leg position over a big fence.
i've been complimented on my leg position say when schooling over small 110 fences at home but in nearly every photo i have at shows after about 135+ my leg pivots from the knee like in those photos you showed, but its when you're landing thats its important to get it back.

i really dont think that its an issue where the leg is when you're jumping bigger fences, there are more important thing to worry about. if you cant balance yourself sufficently you wouldnt be able to jump that big successfully anyway!


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## Kokopelli (21 July 2010)

shark1 said:



			more of a QR to the original post - 

its really hard to keep the 'perfect' lower leg position over a big fence.
i've been complimented on my leg position say when schooling over small 110 fences at home but in nearly every photo i have at shows after about 135+ my leg pivots from the knee like in those photos you showed, but its when you're landing thats its important to get it back.

i really dont think that its an issue where the leg is when you're jumping bigger fences, there are more important thing to worry about. if you cant balance yourself sufficently you wouldnt be able to jump that big successfully anyway!
		
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I don't think this unbalances the horse though as your upper body is still in the same position its when the riders throw themselves forward and unbalance the horse there is an issue.


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## martlin (21 July 2010)

QR
when I look at those pictures, especially in Ludger's case, the lower leg might be swinging back, but his heel is still in a nice vertical line from his hips, which says to me - in balance.
The 2 ladies, although with lower leg on the girth (or even in front) have their hips behind the vertical from heel, which to me says - slightly behind the movement, especially Meredith.


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## pinktiger (21 July 2010)

whilst i understand what your sayin totally<<>>>its very difficult to say how much pivoting is goin on as in each pic the rider is at a diff place over the fence, the way i see it the riders foot comes below the knee from bhind as the horse rounds over the fence so in each frame you get a different postion??!!!  I think the eventers are more into secure lower legs for the xc (obv reasons).  I think having the secure lower leg doesnt show in the pivoting and more in the control, in not throwing yourself up and over the horse and trailing your lower leg behind, all these pics show one common factor and i think its the' control 'and 'core' stability of that mid to lower leg not the fact that you can or cant see pivoting(or movement/swinging)!!


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## UnaB (21 July 2010)

Kokopelli said:



			Sorry gone slightly off topic! But what I'm saying is the pivot at the knee tends to come from bad riding at a young age. But as said above I don't think in any of the picture the horse and rider look unbalanced, its when the riders weight is tipped to far forward this is a problem like this :

http://www.horsehero.com/8413

Jess Mendoza (she is definatly unbalanced)
		
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She doesnt look unbalanced to me, having seen her competing she doesnt throw her ponies off balance (that i have seen anyway).  She is also one of the top young riders in the country so she must be doing something right!!

I dont have a problem with people not having a perfect technique, i know i havent got it!!  The only problem i have is when they hinder the horse - jabbing in the mouth, landing heavily.  You rarely see this at a top level in juniors or seniors though.  Letting your leg slip back, whilst maintaining balance, is not a huge problem IMO and doesnt make them less of a rider.  I'd like to see the critics here jump those fences with perfect technique


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## flyingfeet (21 July 2010)

Please note this thread is to look at jump position technique, not to tell the top riders how to do it!! 

Another interesting things is our Brits are more like the Jessica Mendoza link:

John Whitaker from above: 







My personal hero Geoff Billington is an interesting one to look at, as generally has a very secure lower leg. I'm wondering whether rider body shape and leg length (sorry Geoff!) also determines how much you need to work on the lower leg

Geoff with slight leg back :






Geoff - lovely pic


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## MandyMoo (21 July 2010)

to be frank... i agree that lower leg position is very important when first learning to jump and when first doing lower courses... but at that high level, it really doesn't matter!! The riders are in balance and so are the horses, they are bloomin' brilliant - so no-one on here can critisise. I think when an amateur's lower leg is swung backwards over smaller fences, their upper body tends to be thrown forwards as well = unbalanced, but these high level riders upper bodies are perfectly balanced, and so it doesn't matter what their lower leg does!

BUT i do have to agree on what Kokopelli and Marmalade76 have to say about young pony riders... they are given these brilliant ponies that 'do the job for them' - and then after they've done amazingly well on ponies, they're never heard of again on horses as they simply don't have the skill/balance to ride horses at high level.


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## Kokopelli (21 July 2010)

I agree that body shape probably helps, I bet if you have super long legs its hard to have the "perfect position" (Iwouldn't know ) 

I think Geoff has a very good position and it could be because of his height


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## UnaB (21 July 2010)

Love that second pic of Geoff!!

He is not a rider I really enjoy watching jump i have to admit, he always looks a bit untidy, kind of like Mary King cross country.  BUT, like Mary King, he gets the best out of the horses and gets the job done so i dont think he (or she) is causing any problems for the horse.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 July 2010)

CotswoldSJ said:



			Geoff - lovely pic 





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THAT is an ACE pic!!!!!

Love Geoff hes sooo normal lol!!!

Nikki xxx


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## flyingfeet (21 July 2010)

Actually I was implying for the rounder short legged rider, we have to work much harder to be balanced than the longer legs of someone like Ludger! 

In jumping position mine aren't that far below the saddle flaps, and I think someone with longer legs has a natural advantage in terms of balance!


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## UnaB (21 July 2010)

CotswoldSJ said:



			Actually I was implying for the rounder short legged rider, we have to work much harder to be balanced than the longer legs of someone like Ludger! 

In jumping position mine aren't that far below the saddle flaps, and I think someone with longer legs has a natural advantage in terms of balance!
		
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My SJ instructor actually said the very same thing to me years ago when i used to compete.  She was very tall and slim with long legs, i am not so tall, not so slim and have quite short legs.  She said i would have to work more on my balance than someone with her body shape.  It wasnt an issue as its something i had adapted to in my daily riding anyway, but it is something to bear in mind.

Maybe thats why i never had pivotted knees on my 12.2s and 13.2s lol!


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## amage (21 July 2010)

Bottom two are American riders with extensive years of Equitation training hence the solid lower leg position!


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## pollypocket1 (21 July 2010)

I think LEC is right in what she says about American riders.

If you look at Hunter/Jumper and Eq riders most of them have very secure lower leg positions, and this is taught to them as soon as they learn to ride (in these disciplines).

The ideal jumping position for these disciplines is to have heels down (way down! lol), a lower leg that stays at the girth and a breakover that has about 4-5 inches between your chest and the horses neck.

I guess that as they are taught to ride like this from when they start learining to ride that it becomes easier to keep their lower leg position over the higher fences.

I appologise if any of this is incorrect, this is just my opinion and what I have picked up from speaking to people who ride in these disciplines.


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## JVB (21 July 2010)

Eek, I hope that really isn't the case for tall riders as otherwise I've no excuse. I'm tall with most of leg length in thigh and my leg swings back over bigger fences, trying to correct it but only managing so far over smaller fences and it can on occasion mean I get left behing slightly


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## martlin (21 July 2010)

Hmm, I would say that a short, stumpy (sorry Geoff) lower leg is easier to keep vertical... Ludger Beerbaum is very tall with awfully long legs, to fit onto a horse, those legs need to be seriously folded, if his lower leg was to stay vertical, his backside would be behind the saddle


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## kerilli (21 July 2010)

martlin said:



			Hmm, I would say that a short, stumpy (sorry Geoff) lower leg is easier to keep vertical... Ludger Beerbaum is very tall with awfully long legs, to fit onto a horse, those legs need to be seriously folded, if his lower leg was to stay vertical, his backside would be behind the saddle

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Hmm, i doubt he's taller or longer in the leg than William Fox Pitt, and he manages without swinging his lower leg right back. Good pic at:

http://www.morethanthegames.co.uk/files/morethanthegames/foxpitt.jpg


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## natalia (21 July 2010)

If your jumping double clears and having a good time who gives a stuff what you do over the fence?!


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## martlin (21 July 2010)

kerilli said:



			Hmm, i doubt he's taller or longer in the leg than William Fox Pitt, and he manages without swinging his lower leg right back. Good pic at:

http://www.morethanthegames.co.uk/files/morethanthegames/foxpitt.jpg

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Actually, in this picture WFP's lower leg IS behind the girth if it was on the girth he would be unbalanced.
Also, it's a picture of take off with the horse's hinds not very far off the ground.
Another thing worth noting is how high WFP's bottom (I'm not sure one should talk about such things) is in relation to the saddle.
WFP's legs do require serious folding as well, I get the impression from the photos that LB is shorter in the thigh though, so more 'folding' goes on below the knee.

ETS: without wishing to be rude or not appreciative of difficulty, the jump WFP is jumping is smaller (as in lower) than any of the SJ pictures shown before.


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## kerilli (21 July 2010)

UnaB, I think there are advantages and disadvantages - shorter riders can look very neat more easily, tall leggy riders can look rather messy unless they are very stylish imho.


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## Saratoga (21 July 2010)

Every picture is a moment in time, i suppose all riders have good and bad pics where their legs do what they please...

http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Badminton+Horse+Trials+Day+Four+EMrQ4l1FuHWl.jpg

I actually think it's harder for a much longer leg to be folded up and stay in balance, the same as it's harder for someone with very short legs and more top heavy, than someone who is perfectly in proportion.


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## martlin (21 July 2010)

Franke Sloothaak, he's just under 6'6'', in near damn perfect balance:
http://www.equiweb.it/photogallery/images/big/1194872023-franke-sloothaak.jpg


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## kerilli (21 July 2010)

martlin said:



			Actually, in this picture WFP's lower leg IS behind the girth if it was on the girth he would be unbalanced.
Also, it's a picture of take off with the horse's hinds not very far off the ground.
Another thing worth noting is how high WFP's bottom (I'm not sure one should talk about such things) is in relation to the saddle.
WFP's legs do require serious folding as well, I get the impression from the photos that LB is shorter in the thigh though, so more 'folding' goes on below the knee.

ETS: without wishing to be rude or not appreciative of difficulty, the jump WFP is jumping is smaller (as in lower) than any of the SJ pictures shown before.
		
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Umm, his lower leg is, say, 6" behind the girth, which is why I said "without swinging it right back" - it's not as far back as the sjers - except for the American ladies.
Yes, it's a smaller fence than the sjers are jumping, not sure how much effect that would have.


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## martlin (21 July 2010)

kerilli said:



			Umm, his lower leg is, say, 6" behind the girth, which is why I said "without swinging it right back" - it's not as far back as the sjers - except for the American ladies.
Yes, it's a smaller fence than the sjers are jumping, not sure how much effect that would have.
		
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I'm just musing here not arguing or anything
I *think* the height of the jump has a lot to do with it tbh, as the higher the jump, the more vertical the horse's body on take off... So, if we take somebody else's post that your stirrups should be your ground and if you took the horse out of the picture rider should stay the right way up, the only logical solution is your lower leg going further back from the girth the bigger the fence gets.
I'm not sure how clear what I mean is, I'm starting to confuse myself here

Also, if you compare 2 pictures - WFP you posted and the one of FS I have, is Franke straightened his thigh he would be in pretty much identical position as WFP.


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## dominobrown (21 July 2010)

???
Harvey Smith's style!


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## Rambo (21 July 2010)

There are basically two distinct styles of jumping....one is the 'light' seat whereby the rider balances using a combination of stirrups / knees and the bum barely touches the saddle. In this style the stirrups are used to 'push off' on take-off and as such the stirrup leather tends to stay vertical to the ground. The bigger the fence, and hence the steeper the angle the horse has to jump up, then the more the lower leg appears to be behind the girth. Often as not in this style, the speed in which the horse propels itself up and over the fence is so great that the lower leg doesn't have time to return to 'normal' whilst at the height of the bascule....but as the horse returns to earth, usually the lower leg position returns too....the opposite effect of the take-off.

The second style of jumping is that whereby the riders bum is pretty much in contact with the saddle at all times...and hence the main factor in retaining balance is the bum on saddle, combined with legs gripping the horses sides. In this style the bum rarely leaves the saddle by more than a couple of inches and as balance is obtained from different sources there is no need to use the stirrups as a baseline.

Personally i prefer the light seat approach to the latter.....and many of the greatest SJ'ers in the world are exponents of this style (as we've seen from the pictures above)....one of the greatest to watch displaying this technique is Nick Skelton...who, if you watch a round carefully, will probably see that his bum never touches the saddle for the duration of the time the horse is in canter.


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## marmalade76 (21 July 2010)

Being in balance has nothing to do with keeping the leg on the girth. To be in balance your heel must be in line with your hip, wherever it happens to be.


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## viola (21 July 2010)

As far as the balance vs body shape goes I think the proportions are more important when in the saddle. Riders with long legs but short upper body can "find" their centre of gravity easier than riders with short legs and long upper body (when sat on a moving object). 

As to the lower leg position, I only show-jumped to 1.30m as a junior and young rider so don't want to speculate about the feel over 1.60m fences BUT every time my lower leg was underneath me the feel was amazing: of total oneness with the horse. If my leg zoomed back, even if I was clear and within the time the feeling of the actual jump wasn't the same.

I personally prefer the American style lower leg but Franke Sloothak has always been my SJ hero - he might not have the lower leg right alongside the girth but he is always in balance (heel under hip).

Other thing I noticed: my leg always stays in a better position on horses that are quick off the floor. The "slow" jumpers (those taking their time on the take off and landing) were always more difficult for me to synchronise with. 

Style in between the fences matters a lot too - if you're in the light seat on the approach it's much easier to maintain the "on the girth" lower leg. I think this also has a lot to do with how hot the horse is. The horse that need a kick or more in front of the jump might make you go back into deeper seat and leg further back on the take off. The horse that is hot to a fence lets you travel without much lower leg action which lets you focus on your balance more.


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## Bearskin (21 July 2010)

Lec is right re the American riders. It is drilled into them.  If you watch the two in the photos above in action you will see them make an extra effort to push the heel down/lower leg forward when in the air.  Would be interesting to see photos of them on approach, take off, mid-air and landing too.  

A lot depends on the size of the fences too.  I think that if you had the perfect, vertical shoulder/knee/ball of foot alignment during all phases of jumping a 1.60m fence, you may get a bit left behind at some point? 

Perhaps eventers are able to adopt the more classic position as the fences are smaller (and we tend to jump faster and flatter!)

Also, if you look at the photo of Frankie above he has perfect shoulder/knee/foot alignment, just at a different angle, one more suited to jumping big jumps ie going with the horse.  The American riders go more with the shoulder/knee/heel position.


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## siennamum (21 July 2010)

I think SJers rarely worry about lower leg, so long as they are effective. It's a peculiar event rider obsession and a recent one IMO, whilst it looks prettier, as often as not event riders are left behind the movement - which would be far less helpful to the horse when jumping large fences.

I think SJers have evolved the style in part because they jump ponies -often worrying their feet will hit the poles. I started jumping ponies 40 years ago and was never once told to have a tidy lower leg & I had top SJ & eventing trainers. My lower leg swings straight back even now & I really don't sweat about it.


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## TarrSteps (22 July 2010)

Both the American girls were Eq stars so yes, they not only represent a system, they're very successful proponents of it.  

The other riders were brought up in a different system.  And while they don't have Eq classes per se, they do have a system of tests and instruction that's very codified, which is why so many of them ride so similarly.  (No criticism, but the UK doesn't really seem to have either route so you see many more individual styles in the general population.  That said, younger riders at the top end seem increasingly to reflect one or the other, depending on their dominant influences.)  

Rather like the classical schools of dressage, neither school is "right" or "wrong", they're just different and have evolved to meet specific demands of horses, culture, courses etc.  Increasingly, though, many more top riders seem to have a more "international" style and/or can adapt their styles to whatever they're riding.


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## Bounty (22 July 2010)

Haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but for me (and yes! I know this is an XC shot but I think a good comparison as same moment in time over the same fence) these couple of photos demonstrate the effect of my lower leg on the rest of my balance/posture.... You just need to extrapolate the effect over a much bigger fence 


Wannabe SJer 






A little more correct...






So, it looks like for me, without my lower leg underneath me, my natural tendency to tip forwards just goes wild


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## SJFAN (25 July 2010)

Point of information: Having met Franke I can safely say he is not almost 6 ft 6" - definitely no more than 6ft 2".
Eventers may be less inclined to swing legs back as they are more likely to adopt the "defensive" leaning back seat when going cross-country.  The important thing in whichever discipline is for riders to keep themselves in balance (for their own safety as well as the performance of the horses). How they achieve this is surely more a matter of aesthetics than anything else.
Thanks for the super pic of Geoff grinning at the audience while jumping!


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## BeckyX (25 July 2010)

mm i do this my leg shoots back!! its just comfy i guess, the showjumping *style*  quite effective too, although for xc i try not to do it so much.


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## martlin (25 July 2010)

SJFAN said:



			Point of information: Having met Franke I can safely say he is not almost 6 ft 6" - definitely no more than 6ft 2".
Eventers may be less inclined to swing legs back as they are more likely to adopt the "defensive" leaning back seat when going cross-country.  The important thing in whichever discipline is for riders to keep themselves in balance (for their own safety as well as the performance of the horses). How they achieve this is surely more a matter of aesthetics than anything else.
Thanks for the super pic of Geoff grinning at the audience while jumping!
		
Click to expand...

From Franke's rider profile:
DoB 2/2/1958
height 197cm


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## SJFAN (25 July 2010)

Franke Sloothaak
Full name: Franke Sloothaak 
Gender: Male 
Height: 6'1" (186 cm) 
Weight: 183 lbs (83 kg) 
Born: February 2, 1958 in Heerenveen, Friesland, Netherlands 
Affiliations: Reiterverein Oldenburger Münsterland 
Country:  West Germany,  Germany 
Sport: Equestrianism 

Medals: 2 Gold, 1 Bronze (3 Total) 
from: http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/sl/franke-sloothaak-1.html


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## jenkaywilli (19 May 2019)

This seems like an old post but I'm very interested in this as coming back to jumping bigger fences after a break. It seems to me that as you take off for a big fenc, with the lower leg in the 'correct position on take-off, as it really needs to be to hold yourself up with the horses body coming up in front of you in a big bascule, with the weight in the stirrups the momentum of the movement is then forward and up meaning the forward motion will keep your legs pushing off from the take-off point and then need to be swung forwards for the landing. This is all done very quickly...of course the photos only catch a moment in what is actually a very quick movement...prior to decending on the other side the riders legs will still be pushing their body up and forward from the take off point hence the feet are still pointing back to the source of the movement. And then need a lot of upper body strength and connection with the horses movement to bring the legs forward for landing. To have the lower leg in a vertical position over the jump at such heights, as i have found previously, requires a focussed effort on pushing the feet forward during take off to be in the correct position over the fence, which somewhat hinders movement with the horse....although obviously those that do do this have mastered this well. I probably haven't explained my thoughts very well here but i can see and feel why they do this now having thought about it. Initially i was puzzled by it but it seems to make perfect mechanical sense.
Of course over smaller and/or wider fences or as in xc when the horse and irder are already in a forward speed and with less upward bascule over the jumps - this take off position and weight direction of the riders legs would not be such an issue during take-off and consequently during flight. If you think about where the power and force is coming from for both rider and horse over the jump the gravity in a showjumping take-off leaves the weight pointing back to the take off of the riders legs before going UP over the jump whereas in XC at speed the weight is kept downwards.


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## Mule (19 May 2019)

Equitation is very important in America. The US showjumpers look very stylish. They get up off the horses back and don't pull the head off the horse when they half halt. Their rounds flow nicely.


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## jenkaywilli (19 May 2019)

I'm also considering now how the horse needs to move their head to see the jump and i know riders from some countries actually have a high head carriage all the way round rather than riding the horse 'on the bit'. I should probably start this in another thread though


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## Wheels (19 May 2019)

Do you really want a vertical lower leg going over the fence?  In my mind the lower leg should stay in a very similar position going over the fence as it would in canter 2 point, to give the proper base of support, anything else leads to a lack of balance one way or another.  Easier said than done!


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## Roasted Chestnuts (24 May 2019)

Different styles work for different people


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