# What's wrong with Baker's and what do you think of Dr. John Silver?



## Business (26 February 2012)

As title really- don't normally post in here just lurk but recent lurking has me worried enough to ask.


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## Katikins (26 February 2012)

Ah, let the fun begin!  Basically, read the stuff on the back, most of it is so cancerous it is scary... also, dog poo shouldn't be dayglo orange   Other people here can give a more scientific answer


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## Ranyhyn (26 February 2012)

Those arent peas/carrots etc in the food, so why are they bright orange/green....additives?
Dogs on the equivalent of kids on enumbers = not good.
Here endeth the simple version of the lesson


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## MurphysMinder (26 February 2012)

What they said^^^.  It is equivalent to feeding children a diet of MacDonalds and blue smarties.
Don't know anything about Dr John Silver I'm afraid, but what you are looking for in the ingredients is meat first, and not loads of additives.  I can recommend Skinners Field & Trial as a reasonably priced good quality kibble.


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## flashmans (26 February 2012)

My dog gets Dr. Johns silver. She likes it and does very well on it. Good quality stuff! Would definitely recommend


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## Business (26 February 2012)

flashmans said:



			My dog gets Dr. Johns silver. She likes it and does very well on it. Good quality stuff! Would definitely recommend 

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That's encouraging because that is what I have been feeding since I got the dogs. They seam fine on it. 

I have never and will now never buy Bakers.

Thanks


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## Cinnamontoast (26 February 2012)

Bakers contains carcinogenic ingredients, very low percentage of actual meat and is full of cereal, which dogs can't digest. It is rated as one star out of six purely because there is not a lower rating. Think floor sweepings. If the first named ingredient is cereal or a derivative, leave it alone.

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=426&cat=all

4% meat in the brown bits, which is 20% of the total, so almost nil in total?!

Dr John Silver is on a par with Bakers  It too contains carcinogens. (BHA, BHT) As my dog died of cancer, I'm keen to avoid feeding an animal that has no choice utter rubbish. Just googlethe ingredients. There are better foods out there for less money. 

Both foods mentioned are on this traffic light system index, both written in red i.e. awful.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/189896-dry-dog-food-index.html

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=1123&cat=all


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## quirky (26 February 2012)

What CT says 

I would want to know what 'animal derivatives' constituted. Just sounds wrong!

I'm another who feeds Skinners.


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## Vizslak (26 February 2012)

whilst Dr Johns doesnt have as many e numbers it doesnt actually have any meat in it at all! I'm not sure whether that makes it better/worse than bakers although its an awful lot cheaper! I wouldnt feed it to mine, as CT said it also contains carcinogens banned for human consumption.


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## Business (26 February 2012)

What do you feed yours?


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## Vizslak (26 February 2012)

Arden Grange performance. Cheaper alternative as others have suggested would be skinners, mine dont do well on it but plenty of dogs do.


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## Jake10 (26 February 2012)

Cinnamontoast did a list of food and ingredients to avoid:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=479387


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## Business (26 February 2012)

What is the cheapest way to feed a dog that will not dammage it's health?


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## flashmans (26 February 2012)

Mine's been on Dr John's for years and vet says she's incredibly healthy - inside and out...


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## Serephin (26 February 2012)

I feed mine fish4dogs.


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## galaxy (26 February 2012)

Serephin said:



			I feed mine fish4dogs.
		
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Same.  If you hunt around on the internet, you can get is for £36/bag (unlike the £55 RRP) which last my GSP 6 weeks.


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## Business (26 February 2012)

flashmans said:



			Mine's been on Dr John's for years and vet says she's incredibly healthy - inside and out...
		
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But people here and the links posted are saying Dr John is as bad as Bakers. It's by royal appointment though.


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## Jake10 (26 February 2012)

It's not the cheapest but I feed mine James Wellbeloved biscuits in the morning and NatureDiet meat in the evening 

You can get some good deals here -->  http://www.berriewoodwholesale.co.uk/


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## Cinnamontoast (26 February 2012)

Business said:



			What is the cheapest way to feed a dog that will not dammage it's health?
		
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Raw. Mine cost about £4 each a week, often less.



flashmans said:



			Mine's been on Dr John's for years and vet says she's incredibly healthy - inside and out...
		
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Which is a terribly naive thing to say unless you have tested faecal matter, bile, done a thorough blood panel etc. Anyone who knows anything about vet training will tell you, vets get almost no nutrition advice except by their big sponsor, Hills, whose food is bloody awful, too.

I presume you looked at the ingredient list of Dr John's? Which bit about it containing carcinogens did you miss? Please don't think I'm being rude, but I've spent a long time trying to compile help for people on decent dog food. You only need to google the brand to see if its good or bad. Your dog may appear healthy, mine did, very lively, happy dog til he was diagnosed with cancer and PTS the next ay.

I'd rather give my dogs the best I can rather than stubbornly stick with something just because it's habit.


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## Business (26 February 2012)

Serephin said:



			I feed mine fish4dogs.
		
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I can't afford Fish4dogs- having seen the price- I have 2 large rescue dogs, a horse and no job ATM so help me people- cheapest dog feeding solutions please.


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## Cinnamontoast (26 February 2012)

Business said:



			I can't afford Fish4dogs- having seen the price- I have 2 large rescue dogs, a horse and no job ATM so help me people- cheapest dog feeding solutions please.
		
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Raw. Check this site. They deliver for £5 south of lincolnshire (also google DAF). Raw should be fed at 2-3% of dog's weight so mine get 500-600g daily. I can feed for 35p a day, therefore:
http://www.thedogfoodcompany.co.uk/products.html


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## galaxy (26 February 2012)

Business said:



			I can't afford Fish4dogs- having seen the price- I have 2 large rescue dogs, a horse and no job ATM so help me people- cheapest dog feeding solutions please.
		
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From what I've seen from a quick google, Bakers is £21-25 a bag.  I bet you'd feed less by quantity of fish4dogs as it's better quality and would hardly work out much more expensive at £36/bag.


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## MurphysMinder (26 February 2012)

I'm not sure how much you pay for Dr John, but you should be able to get Skinners F & T duck and rice for around £20, which to me is a reasonable price for a decent food.


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## galaxy (26 February 2012)

MurphysMinder said:



			I'm not sure how much you pay for Dr John, but you should be able to get Skinners F & T duck and rice for around £20, which to me is a reasonable price for a decent food.
		
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it's half the price of even Bakers!!  Really is cheap as chips!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dr-John-Sil...2V3S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330268768&sr=8-1


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## Business (26 February 2012)

Dr. John is £9.90 for 15kg. So skinners is twice that although I shouldn't need to feed as much. 

I am in the south west and have no storage for large quantities of raw meat. 

Other solutions? Anyone?


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## quirky (26 February 2012)

My IG, who is absolutely not fussy as to what he eats, refuses to touch fish4dogs. Can't say I blame him, it has a vile smell and feels incredibly greasy to the touch. Not saying it's a bad food mind 

He is on Arden Grange in the morning and Nature's Harvest at night.

The GSP's are on Skinners. They also get pilchards on top every other day.


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## Business (26 February 2012)

Ur sorry but don;t know what the initials stand for. Only got the dogs as they were destined to be PTS. 

One is a large lurcher the second is a wolfhound cross GSD we think. I know breed is crucial when feeding dogs.


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## misterjinglejay (26 February 2012)

I have fed my gang on James Wellbeloved, and Skinners, which they did really well on, but now feed raw.
I can feed 3 large dogs for about £5-7 a week, and they look fantastic on it (even if I do say so myself).
Raw is fun for me too, as it's great to decide what to feed them daily - a bit of this and a bit of that, some chicken, or a bit of pork and liver.
It's not complicated, and the dogs absolutely love it!


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## misterjinglejay (26 February 2012)

My local butcher is very helpful, and will give me a big bag of offcuts - beef, pork, lamb, etc for about 20pence, and chook carcasses work out at about 9p each.

I only have two freezer drawers for the dogs, and a cheese biscuit box in the fridge for thawing. I will get a dog freezer asap, but it can work with only a small space.


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## Business (26 February 2012)

I only have a tiny freezer that is part of the fridge - no shelves in it! That is full of reduced meat I was planning to eat. 

When I first got the dogs I asked the local butcher about bones- he charged me £1 per bone.


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## Vizslak (26 February 2012)

Your older dogs teeth wouldnt cope with raw now business anyway. Cheapest decent solution I would suggest is skinners crunchy at £19 something a bag.


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## Jake10 (26 February 2012)

Business said:



			I only have a tiny freezer that is part of the fridge - no shelves in it! That is full of reduced meat I was planning to eat. 

When I first got the dogs I asked the local butcher about bones- he charged me £1 per bone.
		
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I know you don't have freezer space but do you have space to bulk buy bags of biscuit and/or tins/trays of dog meat? If so the website link I already provided does great bulk buying deals (even cheaper if you combine your order with your friends orders, if you're ordering the same food)


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## Business (26 February 2012)

Yes, I can store bags and tins - will check out the site - thanks Jake.

That would be why  she wouldn't eat the deer leg I was given then Viz. Actually neither seamed keen, I had to bin most of it. 

Ok, on tangent- Aldi Troy tinned food- opinions anyone? They like that.


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## stencilface (26 February 2012)

If you feed raw, and then your dog goes into kennels, can they go onto normal (parents dogs have tinned meat and biscuits) dog food for a week and it not matter too much, maybe if you introduced a bit at a time first?

I'd like to try this when I get a dog, as the more natural aspect of it sounds good, but want something that was easy to manage at the same time.  I'm veggie, but if I could get meat I didn't have to handle too much I'd be alright


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## Vizslak (26 February 2012)

never heard of the aldi stuff but would guess its pretty rubbish


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## kathantoinette (26 February 2012)

Fed Dr John's for years - great for my dogs although I do feed the 'flake mix' as the Silver (without flake) made them a bit thirsty.


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## Vizslak (26 February 2012)

its not 'great' for your dogs...what you mean is they look ok on it, there is a world of difference.


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## CorvusCorax (26 February 2012)

Can you get Pedro in the UK? Or Red Mills?
Both cheap and not the worst in the nutritional analysis stakes.


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## Cinnamontoast (26 February 2012)

kathantoinette said:



			Fed Dr John's for years - great for my dogs although I do feed the 'flake mix' as the Silver (without flake) made them a bit thirsty.
		
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How is it great for them? Have you read the link with the ingredients? Why would anyone feed that to an innocent dog?!


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## Vizslak (26 February 2012)

chudleys is pretty cheap and I dont think ranks tooooooooooo badly?!


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## Taffyhorse (26 February 2012)

Another who feeds Arden Grange here. Its not the cheapest around but one of the better quality foods. You have my sympathy OP but the old adage 'you get what you pay for' certainly seems to apply in the commercial dog food world.

Wainwrights from Pets at Home is a bit cheaper and pretty good quality too -I've fed that before. I think its about £25-30 for a 15kg bag.


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## Business (26 February 2012)

God this is depressing. Part of me wished I had never asked. I was in blissful ignorance thinking that the Queen uses/ has used Dr. John so it must be OK. 

Why Raw as opposed to cooked?

How much meat daily per KG of dog please? Can you count the fat? Bone? If you feed meat what do you feed with it?

Looking down the lists of food notice all the well advertized ones are pretty crap. I guess the profit margin pays for the ads. Something should be done because so many dog owners wouldn't know and think they are doing right.

Thanks


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## littlemisslauren (26 February 2012)

I feed Applaws or raw, she looks fantastic on the applaws alone (With no itching!) but I like her to eat raw. I dont even want to know what the big bags cost  I pay £10 for a 2kg bag as and when she needs one, but it does seem to last a while.

Raw is far cheaper


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## Cinnamontoast (26 February 2012)

Stencilface said:



			If you feed raw, and then your dog goes into kennels, can they go onto normal (parents dogs have tinned meat and biscuits) dog food for a week and it not matter too much, maybe if you introduced a bit at a time first?
		
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Think it would be ok if they'd had itonce in a while. Mine have a sliver of Wainwright tray dail just in case they ever have to go to kennels.



Vizslak said:



			chudleys is pretty cheap and I dont think ranks tooooooooooo badly?!
		
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Yuk, sorry, dire. http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=1980&cat=all




Business said:



			God this is depressing. Part of me wished I had never asked. I was in blissful ignorance thinking that the Queen uses/ has used Dr. John so it must be OK. 

Why Raw as opposed to cooked?

How much meat daily per KG of dog please? Can you count the fat? Bone? If you feed meat what do you feed with it?

Looking down the lists of food notice all the well advertized ones are pretty crap. I guess the profit margin pays for the ads. Something should be done because so many dog owners wouldn't know and think they are doing right.

Thanks
		
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Read the first three pages of this:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/111437-raw-feeding-everything-you-need-know.html
Also read the raw sticky on here.

You should feed 2-3% of the dog's adult ideal weight (you can estimate for crosses and feed by eye eventually). The ratio is 80:10:10 meat, bone, offal.


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## touchstone (26 February 2012)

You can get the skinners field and trial 15kg for £17.50, plus free delivery and 10% off a second bag from here:-  http://www.medicanimal.com/product/...ct_id=B20955?gclid=CN3BqYft3q0CFVGKfAodwwn8oA


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## Inthemud (26 February 2012)

Business said:



			God this is depressing. Part of me wished I had never asked. I was in blissful ignorance thinking that the Queen uses/ has used Dr. John so it must be OK. 

Why Raw as opposed to cooked?

How much meat daily per KG of dog please? Can you count the fat? Bone? If you feed meat what do you feed with it?

Looking down the lists of food notice all the well advertized ones are pretty crap. I guess the profit margin pays for the ads. Something should be done because so many dog owners wouldn't know and think they are doing right.

Thanks
		
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Read the sticky at the top of this edition of the forum. Lots of really useful stuff!


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## s4sugar (26 February 2012)

Oi,
As a kennel owner I have to take offence at the posts above. 
I feed to owners choice/preference and raw is most definitely an option!

Feeding a bit of variety is a good idea as if you only feed a limited diet (unless for a specific reason) the dogs' digestive systems cannot cope if they pick something up.

I have just had two weeks of timed insulin jabs for an elderly Westie. Gluten intolerent, doesn't like beef and can be picky. Cooking twice a day is all part of the job.


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## CorvusCorax (26 February 2012)

I leave raw with the young dog when he goes into kennels, Natural Instinct do pre-packaged bits and bobs (lamb necks, lamb spines, chunky chicken legs, wings, thighs) which are all nice and clean and the staff just have to open it and lob it in, he doesn't ever really eat out of a bowl.


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## Business (26 February 2012)

touchstone said:



			You can get the skinners field and trial 15kg for £17.50, plus free delivery and 10% off a second bag from here:-  http://www.medicanimal.com/product/...ct_id=B20955?gclid=CN3BqYft3q0CFVGKfAodwwn8oA

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Thanks for that and thanks everyone for all your help.


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## CorvusCorax (26 February 2012)

Also if you want to have dry days and raw days that can make it cheaper and you are on a budget, so scour the bargain bins in Iceland, Tesco etc, I used to pick up a lot of my chicken bits, liver, kidney, heart etc in there.


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## Dobiegirl (26 February 2012)

When I first had my current Dobes I fed them Autarky but upgraded to Skinners Duck & Rice, Autarky have now brought out a new feed Salmon,rice, herbs and Veg which I have now changed over to. It is £17.50 for a 15kg bag and lasts my dogs just over 10days so price has to be considered but  I would never feed rubbish. They also get sardines twice a week as well as the occasional carrot.


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## Chestnuttymare (26 February 2012)

I fed Dr John gold to cara and it wasn't til after I saw the dogfoodanalysis site that i have changed her on to James wellbeloved. That was the one that seemed to get the best write up. I feel sick that i was feeding her such crap especially since she got a nail bed infection and then had to get the toe removed due to it not healing properly. I was so shocked when it turned out that it was malignant melanoma. The lab is confident that the vet removed it all and she is in great health now. I don't know if it is related but can you imagine how bad i have felt about it. Cara always looked shiny and healthy but you just never know. People have actually said that they didn't think it was possible for cara to shine any more than she did, but her coat is even more gleaming now. I didn't feed dr johns because it was cheap, i fed it because i thought it wasn't full of crap as loads of breeders and gundog people use it.


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## Dexter (26 February 2012)

I feed Fish4Dogs. It does smell bad but my very fussy whippet will at least pick at it, unlike pretty much everything else! I buy it in bulk when its on offer and it lasts forever. He gets supplemented by raw food. I get a big bag from the butcher every few days for free. Its bones, off cuts and offal. I use it to help deal with his SA. He knows he only gets raw in his crate when I'm out. 

I know its better for him, but I just cant be doing with the mess and fuss, of raw all the time. And the cats would murder him if they could get to him when hes eating raw  So we do about 2/3s Fish4Dogs and 1/3 raw. I got a 15kg sack in Jan and have used less than 1/4, so so far hes cost me about a tenner for over 6 weeks


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## Business (26 February 2012)

chestnuttymare said:



			I fed Dr John gold to cara and it wasn't til after I saw the dogfoodanalysis site that i have changed her on to James wellbeloved. That was the one that seemed to get the best write up. I feel sick that i was feeding her such crap especially since she got a nail bed infection and then had to get the toe removed due to it not healing properly. I was so shocked when it turned out that it was malignant melanoma. The lab is confident that the vet removed it all and she is in great health now. I don't know if it is related but can you imagine how bad i have felt about it. Cara always looked shiny and healthy but you just never know. People have actually said that they didn't think it was possible for cara to shine any more than she did, but her coat is even more gleaming now. I didn't feed dr johns because it was cheap, i fed it because i thought it wasn't full of crap as loads of breeders and gundog people use it.
		
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I know how you feel- I have been feeding Dr John since 2008 when I got the dogs and I asked plenty of people about it at the time who should have been in the know who said it was ok- they had not known anything bad.  By royal appointment and all that- I thought it was really safe.  So gutted now.


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## Dobiegirl (26 February 2012)

chestnuttymare said:



			I fed Dr John gold to cara and it wasn't til after I saw the dogfoodanalysis site that i have changed her on to James wellbeloved. That was the one that seemed to get the best write up. I feel sick that i was feeding her such crap especially since she got a nail bed infection and then had to get the toe removed due to it not healing properly. I was so shocked when it turned out that it was malignant melanoma. The lab is confident that the vet removed it all and she is in great health now. I don't know if it is related but can you imagine how bad i have felt about it. Cara always looked shiny and healthy but you just never know. People have actually said that they didn't think it was possible for cara to shine any more than she did, but her coat is even more gleaming now. I didn't feed dr johns because it was cheap, i fed it because i thought it wasn't full of crap as loads of breeders and gundog people use it.
		
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I hope you are not blaming yourself for Caras malignant Melanoma , the variety of food that is out there is mind blowing and personal recommendation helps, I know a lot of the gundog fraternity recommend Dr johns which just goes to show we should do our own research.

Glad to hear Cara is on the mend.


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## CorvusCorax (26 February 2012)

Don't feel too bad, we used to feed something resembling a cross between muesli and horse food for years, the dogs were all long-lived and outwardly healthy, but having educated myself a little on dog food, would I feed it again or recommend it? Hell no!
It did not kill them, but there are infinitely better foods on the market.


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## Chestnuttymare (26 February 2012)

thanks girls, i can't help feeling bad though. You are right, we should do our own research, I wish i had thought about that before. She is brilliant, (don't want to hijack) she was having phantom pregnancies so had her spayed, turned out she had polycystic ovaries. she was zonked the day of the op due to anaesthetic but after that you would never have known she had had an op. she wasn't ill before apart from not being herself due to phantom but I tell you, she is like a new woman. Her scar healed really quick,gave her tons of reiki too. Just want to do the absolute best for her.


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## Inthemud (27 February 2012)

We've all been there. I fed Hills to my cockers for years. Thought it must be good, I got it from the vet and it cost the earth.... The same day I collected whippet pup, I piced up a huge bag of Royal Canin, on much the same basis, just trying to do the best for my mutt.

Then I read the label on the back, found AAD and the rest is (RAW) history.......


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## dingle12 (27 February 2012)

I feed Dr john silver to all my dogs and family members do to there dogs too. I lost my old dog at 18 years and he had been on that most of his life my 11 year old is on it he has been on it all his life he has never needed the vets other than vacc i am always stopped and asked what do i feed him as his coat is fantastic even my vet asks me.
Gizmo my terrier is also on it he has been from day dot and yet again fantastic teeth and coat. He has got a few temp problems but thats down to the terrier not the food

My MIL has a whippet always losing weight and going to the toilet loads with runny stools, i got her to change her food and he now hold his weight fantastic.

All dogs are diff and you should try whats best for you and your dog i for one dont believe in all these expensive foods.

And sorry to say whoever said cancer was to blame for the dog food sadly its not alot of things contribute to cancer you cannot blame whats in dog food.

Just to add i have had a full blood count off one of my older dogs and all the results were spot on.


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## Vizslak (27 February 2012)

*holds hands up* I used to feed it too and then beta, then eukanuba, my dogs at the time looked fab on all, dont anyone feel guilty about it, feeding is a difficult thing and researching whats in the food you buy isnt something most people think of doing until alerted to it. We trust what we buy as a rule, in the case of the more expensive feeds we think we are buying the best because its more expensive etc, sadly thats not the case but its very rare not to be initially fooled by it. Its only fairly recently that what we put into our dogs has become a major topic that more people are becoming clued up on. If you dont know about whats in dog food then choosing a food is a minefield, so many brands, so much price variation etc etc. 
Business, my food bill is very cheap but I feed kibble in the morning only and tripe in the evening (cooked) however I dont know many people who that feeding plan works for, you do need freezer space and an outside microwave (in a garage or shed) as the stuff stinks! I sometimes feed the chicken blocks instead which obviously smells far less. This feeding (with arden grange as the kibble so not cheapest) costs me just over 2 quid per dog per week.


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## NOISYGIRL (27 February 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			Raw. Mine cost about £4 each a week, often less.



Which is a terribly naive thing to say unless you have tested faecal matter, bile, done a thorough blood panel etc. Anyone who knows anything about vet training will tell you, vets get almost no nutrition advice except by their big sponsor, Hills, whose food is bloody awful, too.

I presume you looked at the ingredient list of Dr John's? Which bit about it containing carcinogens did you miss? Please don't think I'm being rude, but I've spent a long time trying to compile help for people on decent dog food. You only need to google the brand to see if its good or bad. Your dog may appear healthy, mine did, very lively, happy dog til he was diagnosed with cancer and PTS the next ay.

I'd rather give my dogs the best I can rather than stubbornly stick with something just because it's habit.
		
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My sister in law feeds their westie on bakers, and its ok because he's eaten it all his 8 years of life


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## Chestnuttymare (27 February 2012)

dingle12 said:



			I feed Dr john silver to all my dogs and family members do to there dogs too. I lost my old dog at 18 years and he had been on that most of his life my 11 year old is on it he has been on it all his life he has never needed the vets other than vacc i am always stopped and asked what do i feed him as his coat is fantastic even my vet asks me.
Gizmo my terrier is also on it he has been from day dot and yet again fantastic teeth and coat. He has got a few temp problems but thats down to the terrier not the food

My MIL has a whippet always losing weight and going to the toilet loads with runny stools, i got her to change her food and he now hold his weight fantastic.

All dogs are diff and you should try whats best for you and your dog i for one dont believe in all these expensive foods.

And sorry to say whoever said cancer was to blame for the dog food sadly its not alot of things contribute to cancer you cannot blame whats in dog food.

Just to add i have had a full blood count off one of my older dogs and all the results were spot on.
		
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I'm not necessarily blaming the food, i don't know what caused it, could well be just one of those things. It did give me a fright though and just for peace of mind I have changed to one of the brands that got high marks on the food analysis site.


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## Vizslak (27 February 2012)

NOISYGIRL said:



			My sister in law feeds their westie on bakers, and its ok because he's eaten it all his 8 years of life
		
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thats an odd statement, I smoke and have done for more than ten years, I'm  not dead and dont have any smoking related health issues, however I would be hard pushed to claim that means smoking is ok for you!


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## lachlanandmarcus (27 February 2012)

I switched from Bakers as a result of learning from reading these posts. Was going to use Wellbeloved and then found the analysis wasnt as great as I had thought.


So Ive started using this as it was the best analysis I could find where the company wouldnt charge twice the amount of the order to actually deliver it to me up here in Aberdeenshire.
http://www.symplypetfoods.co.uk/

The dogs (6-7 yo Border terrier (hip dysplasia) and 6-7 yo Doberman (slight arthritis in back) are having this one
http://www.symplypetfoods.co.uk/Senior-Light

Im combining it with lightly cooked (they wont eat it completely raw) mutton from our cull sheep, the littlun I dont risk with bones tho.

Is this a good food? The dogs seem very happy on this diet and less hyperactive. The Dobies coat is like a mirror, it's so glossy.


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## Vizslak (27 February 2012)

I wouldnt say it was bad LandM although what I would say is that its on a par with other feeds that cost a lot less! Skinners would be similar in analysis from what I can see and its half the price. I'm no feeding guru though, others may have other opinion.


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## dingle12 (27 February 2012)

My 18 year old had very bad hip dysplasia dr john did him no harm at all he thrived on it, kept his weight spot on too.

Fed what you think is best for your dog. Try the cheaper brands and work up not the other way around its madness what is charged for some of these feeds. If your dog is healthy has a good coat, teeth and skin keeping a good weight and going to the toilet fine you have found your dog food.













do these look healthy ??
 lab x is 11yrs ( and no didnt pack him in the case he does it every time i start packing )







and ben at 18


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## littlemisslauren (27 February 2012)

Dingle I think the point is that dogs may look healthy on these foods but at the end of the day it is not good or natural for them. 

fpr example. My beloved Border was fed on Bakers his whole life, no health problems and everyone commented on how great he looked. We had to have him PTS because his kidneys and liver had packed in and he was dying from the inside out. Him becoming ill and being PTS was within a week.

I am sleepy though and may well have mis read posts / be talking out my a*se


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## stencilface (27 February 2012)

It seems (from my little knowledge and experience!) that many dogs will do fine on the processed foods like bakers, but they may do better on something else.  Thats what I have grasped from this anyway


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## ester (27 February 2012)

I was thinking (always dangerous) that we don't really have these discussions about the 'quality' of horse feed over an above poss starch/sugar/protein levels, I have never actually looked at an ingredients list (although we are only talking horse and pony nuts here, but cheap as chips own brand mole valley ones) I wonder if it is less of an issue because:
a) horses are less popular so less advertising budget!
b) it is a smaller part of a horses ration, not 100% like the dogs.


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## stencilface (27 February 2012)

I think most horse feed (esp bulk type feeds) don't really matter as likely 90% (I don't even know!   ) is made up of forage.

Its only when you start feeding something that will make your horse mentally unstable that it makes a difference, for mine this is oats or a balancer 

I think horses also are more of an 'expert' thing that joe public is not involved with, people are expected just to know a bit more, instead of any old joe bloggs buying a puppy cos its cute. They are also treated a bit more like stock


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## CorvusCorax (27 February 2012)

KarynK that posts on here (much more sporadically than she used to ) used to say that there is more cereal (maize in particular) in a lot of dogs foods than there are in horse feeds. And that ain't good.
I was doing an ingredients check in Jollyes today (long story, don't ask) and some of the ingredients lists, even in the so-called 'premium' brands are shocking. Meat content, even animal product content, negligible in most, and those are the ones that actually give percentages, most don't.


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## stencilface (27 February 2012)

What is the general opinion of canned meat for dogs - is this just as bad, or better than dry foods.  I can't believe its worse


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## CorvusCorax (27 February 2012)

Tinned stuff is usually mostly water.


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## ester (27 February 2012)

urgh this one annoys me!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud1rkQdaZHc

it says wet on it! of course it is mostly water.  I would be worried if dried food contained the same!


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## s4sugar (27 February 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			Tinned stuff is usually mostly water.
		
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True but the moisture content is closer to raw meat than that of dried food. Like everything else it depends what is in the tin & some are much better than others.
I don't think any are quite as bad as Bakers.


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## soloabe (27 February 2012)

Stencilface said:



			What is the general opinion of canned meat for dogs - is this just as bad, or better than dry foods.  I can't believe its worse 

Click to expand...

Good quality canned food is far far better than dry food. If i couldn't feed raw i would feed a 100% canned diet.

First it has much more moisture. Dehydration is a huge issue in dogs and most dogs fed dry food are dehydrated.

Seconds a good quality canned contains much more meat than kibble.

Third way way less carbs because it doesn't need he carbs to hold shape.

I personally think most kibble in the UK is terrible. Skinners ect is mostly all grains or potato and very little meat.


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## stencilface (27 February 2012)

Thanks, so meat is better than dry - tbh I would have thought that anyway - it looks like meat for starters!

I will endeavour to get my dog (when I get one  ) on a raw diet, but I need to do it so its easy for my OH/parents to feed if needed, so likely will need a packaged deal. thats easy to do, and buy a small chest freezer


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## CorvusCorax (27 February 2012)

For convenience, I ordered from Natural Instinct for a few weeks. 
Now I have all the tubs. And a freezer.
I have since sourced a cheaper guy who supplies to the greyhound industry, minced tripe, minced whole chickens, chicken carcasses, turkey legs, hearts, kidneys etc.
So I just defrost what I need for the next couple of days and divide it into the tubs. Hurray


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## ChesnutsRoasting (27 February 2012)

My dogs have always had a varied diet. Tinned, mixer, veg, pasta, rice, raw meat. I can't think of anything worse than feeding them dry feed daily with nothing else. I'm sure feeding dry is down to convenience for a lot of dog owners - scoop in the bowl, job done.


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## whisp&willow (27 February 2012)

Betty is now on a bit of a mixed diet:

she gets raw chicken wings/oxtail etc or a whole raw egg (inc shell) and natural yog (only 2 eggs max a week) in the morning, and is then fed wainwrights dry food with either a tin of sardines or leftovers from our dinner in the evenings.  i always put in a good glug of water, and 20 mls of apple cider vinegar to this evening meal too.

during the summer we catch lots of mackerel, so we freeze some and she gets them when we have them.

she was on wagg and tesco tinned dog food,  she looked great and was fit as a fiddle.  i wouldnt say she LOOKS or acts any different now, but her crap is a whole lot more normal looking......

i wanted to move to raw, but where i am makes it really difficult, so this way i feel that she has the best that i can give her.


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## Katikins (27 February 2012)

Not sure if there is an equivalent of what we feed in the UK.  We use Carnibest (http://www.carnibest.nl/) which you buy frozen in 1kg rolls (3.50 euros each) and just defrost as you need.  We don't have a big freezer (just a 2 shelf one above the fridge) but can fit about 4 of these in at a time and still have room for our own food.  100% raw with all the parts of the animal plus a few naturally found herbs and veggies and everything is human grade and sourced in the Netherlands.  It was recommended by our breeder and I think it is fantastic quality, doesn't have that gross dog food smell, is comparable price wise with supermarket brands and the dog loves and looks fantastic on it.

I wanted to go raw but the butchers here are virtually non-existent, very few supermarket offers on meat and our local butcher doesn't even stock bones or off-cuts!!

ETS: Also, her poos are great!  Never thought I'd get excited about how easy to pick up poo is!


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## CorvusCorax (27 February 2012)

Katikins, is that like a big sausage thing in an orange wrapper?


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## Katikins (27 February 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			Katikins, is that like a big sausage thing in an orange wrapper?
		
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Yes, it's exactly that   Well, red wrapper.


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## CorvusCorax (27 February 2012)

Cool, my friends get it sent over, it's great for tracking


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## Cinnamontoast (27 February 2012)

NOISYGIRL said:



			My sister in law feeds their westie on bakers, and its ok because he's eaten it all his 8 years of life
		
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And she doesn't mind the carcinogens? Poor bloody dogs. 



dingle12 said:



			My 18 year old had very bad hip dysplasia dr john did him no harm at all he thrived on it, kept his weight spot on too.

Fed what you think is best for your dog. Try the cheaper brands and work up not the other way around its madness what is charged for some of these feeds. If your dog is healthy has a good coat, teeth and skin keeping a good weight and going to the toilet fine you have found your dog food.
		
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Is that you'd feed your kids? Start with the cheap crap? You've been lucky, given the epically awful ingredients and the bits that _*might*_ cause cancer. Google BHA/BHT: you really think it's ok to feed an animal that has no choice that stuff? 



dingle12 said:



			And sorry to say whoever said cancer was to blame for the dog food sadly its not alot of things contribute to cancer you cannot blame whats in dog food.
		
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Even though the vet told me stomach cancer is usually directly linked to nutrition? You a vet? Why add to the risk? There are known carcinogens in the food.


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## cremedemonthe (27 February 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			And she doesn't mind the carcinogens? Poor bloody dogs. 



Is that you'd feed your kids? Start with the cheap crap? You've been lucky, given the epically awful ingredients and the bits that _*might*_ cause cancer. Google BHA/BHT: you really think it's ok to feed an animal that has no choice that stuff? 



Even though the vet told me stomach cancer is usually directly linked to nutrition? You a vet? Why add to the risk? There are known carcinogens in the food.
		
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Agree with this, WHY would anyone WANT to subject their pet to carcinogens?


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## Cinnamontoast (27 February 2012)

cremedemonthe said:



			Agree with this, WHY would anyone WANT to subject their pet to carcinogens?
		
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Cos you should start with the cheap crap apparently, Oz! Mental.


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## Business (28 February 2012)

Creeps back into thread.

Ok, so if I give them Skinners Hypoallergenic Field & Trial Duck & Rice  (with some meat when possible - as the analysis said lack of meat was the problem with this feed) will that be safe? Ok? Acceptable?

Thanks

That analysis site script crashed my PC earlier BTW.


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## whisp&willow (28 February 2012)

please dont feed raw meat and dry food/kibble in the same meal though!    they are digested at different rates, and can lead to problems.

i give betty a small raw meal in the morning, (eg 2 x chicken wings/ 1 chicken wing and a small bit of oxtail/ a raw egg, shell and all, mashed up with some natural yog (only twice a week max for the raw egg) )  and her dry meal with a tin of sardines/household leftovers in the evening.


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## ester (28 February 2012)

cremedemonthe said:



			Agree with this, WHY would anyone WANT to subject their pet to carcinogens?
		
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I would just like to point out that they are likely exposed to carcinogens every day, as our we in varying amounts.  I do understand the want to reduce exposure though I just want to not get too close the line of this food will give your dog cancer/if you don't feed your dog this food it won't get cancer.


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## NOISYGIRL (28 February 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			And she doesn't mind the carcinogens? Poor bloody dogs. 



.
		
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Yup poor dog, what I couldn't get through was that he might not get much past 8 if she carried on feeding it


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## Vizslak (28 February 2012)

Oh I see Noisygirl, I do apologise, I misinterpreted your post, I thought you were justifying it! Silly woman, sometimes though you just cant make people understand can you


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## dingle12 (28 February 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			And she doesn't mind the carcinogens? Poor bloody dogs. 



Is that you'd feed your kids? Start with the cheap crap? You've been lucky, given the epically awful ingredients and the bits that _*might*_ cause cancer. Google BHA/BHT: you really think it's ok to feed an animal that has no choice that stuff? 



Even though the vet told me stomach cancer is usually directly linked to nutrition? You a vet? Why add to the risk? There are known carcinogens in the food.
		
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No kids so dont bother calling social services !!! and it shows that your cheap brand food thats sold in supermarkets are just as good as you dearer brand.

And no im not a vet but ive worked a hell of a lot of years in the veterinary business.

I understand what your saying as in some things can cause the cancer but as i said alot of things can. We have dealt with many animals fed on high quality food all there life but yet still lost them to different things cancer included.

As i said my dogs are very happy on Dr Johns and one had a full detailed blood test and everything was spot on if not better then it should be for his age.

So yes I will still feed my dog RUBBISH as you call it im sure my poor dogs will be ok.


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## Cinnamontoast (28 February 2012)

ester said:



			I would just like to point out that they are likely exposed to carcinogens every day, as our we in varying amounts.  I do understand the want to reduce exposure though I just want to not get too close the line of this food will give your dog cancer/if you don't feed your dog this food it won't get cancer.
		
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Of course, but why knowingly add to the load? If the ingredients don't put you off, the price should. There are some good foods out there for less money. 

Can't even be bothered to reply to Dingle, too depressing to argue with someone who clearly thinks it's ok to feed rubbish.


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## dingle12 (28 February 2012)

What a load of tosh dont want to get depressed !!! Jog on just because i feed my animals something that as you put it im very lucky to have gotten away with not giving my dogs cancer! i best go put the lotto on then because so far ive managed not to kill off about 12 dogs that have all died or pts to old age simply.


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## AMW (1 March 2012)

Took our dog off Bakers & put him on Autarky, he's had a personality change since but is Autarky nutritionally sound?


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## CorvusCorax (1 March 2012)

I'm still waiting for my supplier to get in the senior salmon version of Autarky for my big dog, I am running out of options as he is now no longer doing well on Wainwrights (which had kept him stable for some time) and it seems to tick quite a few boxes.

Nice price too


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## Dobiegirl (1 March 2012)

Ive just changed over to Autarky Salmon from Skinners Duck & Rice and havnt quite finished a bag yet. It is not much different to Skinners but is a few pounds cheaper and as a bag last me just over 10days it mounts up.

If anything I think they are drinking more whether its the food or the warmer weather I havnt sussed it out yet. I will feed another 2 bags and if Im not happy will go back to Skinners.


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## Cinnamontoast (1 March 2012)

AMW said:



			Took our dog off Bakers & put him on Autarky, he's had a personality change since but is Autarky nutritionally sound?
		
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http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=1913&cat=all

It is rated red in this dry dog food index (red=worst, green=best):
http://www.petforums.co.uk/1061404556-post1.html


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## Dobiegirl (1 March 2012)

Ct The new Autarky is different the adult salmon contains 

Salmon 35%
rice      33%

it also contains oats,chicken fat,yeast,full fat linseed,alfalfa,praire meal,peas,unmolassed beet pulp,milk thistle,marigold,nettle,seaweed,yucca,blackcurrent,carrot,thyme,beetroot,tomato,peppermint,fennel,paprika,turmeric,dandelion,ginger,fenugrek,rosemary,oregano & aloe vera.


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## northernnewfiediva (2 March 2012)

Haven't read the whole thread but with regard to Dr John Silver, we have up to 12 working dogs at any time, various spaniels ( cockers, springers), labs and lurchers. We have also had cross breeds in as a training challenge (!), they are all fed Dr John silver as a  base feed with an odd bag of something else as a 'top up' and we have been feeding it for literally years - about 15 as far as I can remember. We have NEVER had any form of cancer in ANY of our dogs, many of whom are second/third/fourth generation of our breeding and we can trace the lines back 20 years. We also keep in touch with the vast ajority of our puppies or rehomed dogs.
Almost all our vet bills are caused by working injuries, the incredibly stupid ban on tail docking working dogs in Scotland, cars knocking down our cats or horses doing horse-y things. We have NEVER had anything more sinister and I would suspect thatteh manufacturers of these feeds would be unhappy atteh tone of some of the posts in this thread!


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## ester (2 March 2012)

I googled the ingredients of Dr john (I am sad and avoiding a thesis  )

BHA/BHT the preservative antioxidants are the supposed carcinogens, there does seem to be evidence both ways as to whether they are or not, or may even act a as a protective (presumably because they mop up free radicals) so I think if I had a dog I wouldn't not feed a food because it had them as ingredients.


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## Cinnamontoast (2 March 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Ct The new Autarky is different the adult salmon contains 

Salmon 35%
rice      33%

it also contains oats,chicken fat,yeast,full fat linseed,alfalfa,praire meal,peas,unmolassed beet pulp,milk thistle,marigold,nettle,seaweed,yucca,blackcurrent,carrot,thyme,beetroot,tomato,peppermint,fennel,paprika,turmeric,dandelion,ginger,fenugrek,rosemary,oregano & aloe vera.
		
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Interesting. IT still comes out as red (IMO) because of the amount of grains, which as far as I'm aware are totally unnecessary for canines. Prairie meal is very low quality maize, I think. Beet pulp is also questionable. There is a mix of really good indgredients and really odd. 



ester said:



			I googled the ingredients of Dr john (I am sad and avoiding a thesis  )

BHA/BHT the preservative antioxidants are the supposed carcinogens, there does seem to be evidence both ways as to whether they are or not, or may even act a as a protective (presumably because they mop up free radicals) so I think if I had a dog I wouldn't not feed a food because it had them as ingredients.
		
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I prefer not to risk it. I've read more about the disadvantages of them than the advantages. Dr John has cereal as the first and biggest ingredient-dogs don't need carbs. I think it might be better to use a little of a really decent dry food and top up with something not so expensive. I don't seriously understand why people would pay for fillers, other than the convenience of being able to buy it somewhere handy. 

Data can be interpreted in different ways but I do think people ought to check a bit more. (I know people on here do!) It concerns me that some people are swayed by the advertising and don't realise that some commercially available foods are so low in actual meat/decent ingredients and they just see the advert and buy it cos it's cheap/available.


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## ester (2 March 2012)

ah yes the cereal content would be much, much more likely to put me off!


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## Oberon (2 March 2012)

Business said:



			I can't afford Fish4dogs- having seen the price- I have 2 large rescue dogs, a horse and no job ATM so help me people- cheapest dog feeding solutions please.
		
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Your dogs can eat for free if you visit the butchers and empty their 'slop bucket' each day 

You are supposed to have a certain ratio of meat v bone v liver v offal, but it all works out in a long term way.

If you hit a couple of butchers, you should score whatever you need


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## Business (2 March 2012)

Oberon said:



			Your dogs can eat for free if you visit the butchers and empty their 'slop bucket' each day 

You are supposed to have a certain ratio of meat v bone v liver v offal, but it all works out in a long term way.

If you hit a couple of butchers, you should score whatever you need 

Click to expand...

Tried that, one wants £1 per lb another £1 per kilo.


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## ladyt25 (2 March 2012)

Blimey, there are far too many feed experts on here and no, I am not even being sarcastic! how did you all get this knowledge though, wass it just trial and error or have you been told by others or is it just a case of research, reasearch, research?

I have to say, i maybe naiveley believe that people who manufacture dog feed actually care about dog health and welfare and it would seem that is not the case. I admit, I feed mine a mixer and tinned meat but she may also get the odd 'treat' whether that be sardines or whatever. When i got her from Dogs Trust in dec she came with a bag of Arden Grange so that I could 'wean' her on to my own choice of food eventually. Oddly though she was not keen on Arden Grange at all - this is a dog who i have discovered eats just about anything!

I do feel more comfortable feeding a dog some meat though. Not many dogs I know seem very keen on eating just dried food.


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## Cinnamontoast (2 March 2012)

I spent a lot of time researching food after a dog of mine was PTS (stomach and spinal cancer). At a similar time, a friend of mine died, riddled with cancer. Another friend, who's an oncology nurse, said she'd only eat fresh, unprocessed food if she ever got cancer. I therefore got reading. Some stuff is basic, like the list of 'permitted EC additives' that is often found in dog food from the supermarket, bad, avoid.

What the manufacturer calls meat, unless named, is not generally of good quality.


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## kirstyl (2 March 2012)

ladyt25 said:



			Blimey, there are far too many feed experts on here and no, I am not even being sarcastic! how did you all get this knowledge though, wass it just trial and error or have you been told by others or is it just a case of research, reasearch, research?

I have to say, i maybe naiveley believe that people who manufacture dog feed actually care about dog health and welfare and it would seem that is not the case. I admit, I feed mine a mixer and tinned meat but she may also get the odd 'treat' whether that be sardines or whatever. When i got her from Dogs Trust in dec she came with a bag of Arden Grange so that I could 'wean' her on to my own choice of food eventually. Oddly though she was not keen on Arden Grange at all - this is a dog who i have discovered eats just about anything!

I do feel more comfortable feeding a dog some meat though. Not many dogs I know seem very keen on eating just dried food.
		
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Funnily enough, mine came from Leeds Dogs Trust very nearly two years ago and also didn't like Arden Grange!  We now feed Naturediet once a day and at the other end of the day she has cooked potato or brown rice, grated carrot or other raw veg with sardines in oil or tomato.  Our butcher is fantastic and provides us with rib bones every week which she loves. She will also eat raw, it really depends what we have in. She has never been partiularly keen on chicken wings - she likes them far more when they are stinking but I strangely don't!


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## misterjinglejay (3 March 2012)

Research, research and more research - lots of talking to breeders of sleddogs, in my case, and studying labels.

Raw, IMO, is definitely the way to go. 

Oberon, you are absolutely right - our local butcher charges £6 for a 15kg box of chook carcases (about 70 carcases), and all the 'extras' we get free.

Butchers day is always fun in our house - opening the 'extras' sack to see what we've got - could be hearts, liver, bones, anything. Last week we had 7 lambs heart, ox lung and liver, ribs, assorted beef and pork offcuts, and holy of holies - tripe!!! All free 

Love our butcher - he's top!


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## ladylisa (8 March 2012)

Having found this post the other day, and having fed Dr Johns silver for a number of years, alarm bells have started ringing for me as i lost my 6 year old weimaraner bitch last year to stomach cancer.

I have been researching dog food and trying to find a supplier in my area, and i must say i am really struggling, i can not afford to pay silly money!

Would like to feed Skinners but cant find a supplier !!

So what do you all think about Wonderdog????


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## haycroft (8 March 2012)

My two are fed mainly on redmills ( less than £15 per 15 kg bag depending on % of protein ) , I do try to feed raw as much as i can though , depending what i can get   
 would never feed bakers .. It looks yuk


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## Cinnamontoast (8 March 2012)

ladylisa said:



			I have been researching dog food and trying to find a supplier in my area, and i must say i am really struggling, i can not afford to pay silly money!

Would like to feed Skinners but cant find a supplier !!

So what do you all think about Wonderdog????
		
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Have a scout online for a decent supplier. You can often get it for less if you buy in bulk.


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## touchstone (9 March 2012)

touchstone said:



			You can get the skinners field and trial 15kg for £17.50, plus free delivery and 10% off a second bag from here:-  http://www.medicanimal.com/product/...ct_id=B20955?gclid=CN3BqYft3q0CFVGKfAodwwn8oA

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This is where I get mine from.


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## Alec Swan (9 March 2012)

To the original question;  I've never used Bakers,  so have no opinion,  but I've used DJ's Silver,  for the last 12 years,  and have been entirely happy with it,  but I should add that kitchen and table scraps are also added.  Scraps that would include chicken carcasses,  the excess gravy from Sunday roasts,  digestible vegetables (such as they are) and,  with the exception of pork bones,   what ever seems edible!!

With additives and help,  I've reared puppies on DJ's!

Alec.


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## Oberon (9 March 2012)

ladyt25 said:



			Blimey, there are far too many feed experts on here and no, I am not even being sarcastic! how did you all get this knowledge though, wass it just trial and error or have you been told by others or is it just a case of research, reasearch, research?

I have to say, i maybe naiveley believe that people who manufacture dog feed actually care about dog health and welfare and it would seem that is not the case. I admit, I feed mine a mixer and tinned meat but she may also get the odd 'treat' whether that be sardines or whatever. When i got her from Dogs Trust in dec she came with a bag of Arden Grange so that I could 'wean' her on to my own choice of food eventually. Oddly though she was not keen on Arden Grange at all - this is a dog who i have discovered eats just about anything!

I do feel more comfortable feeding a dog some meat though. Not many dogs I know seem very keen on eating just dried food.
		
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I was feeding kibble last year...£12 for a sack from the local feed supplier....and hubby would get a box of Bakers from the corner shop when we ran out and I was working.....

But I got fed up with watching Salem scratch all the time and see his raw skin.

So I started on here and asked questions. 

I've been feeding Raw since June now.

I'd tried a Barf diet for my old girl, many years ago...but it made her ill. Now I know it was because I didn't do the research and I went too fast, too soon.


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