# Navicular in the young high value competition horse - WWYD?



## Andiamo (4 August 2015)

Hi all, 

I have a friend, a professional rider, who has just found out her top quality youngster, 4 years old has navicular changes, navicular syndrome. 
He's a big lush Hanoverian that she bought as a foal, and has invested all her heart, time and energy into this gorgeous chap. He should have been in her Grand Prix ride for the future...he looks the part, and she is an excellent rider / trainer. 

As you can imagine, she is devastated, and can't really think about solutions right now, because she is so upset by it all. She knows he won't be suitable to compete at high levels, and therefore is thinking of re-homing him, as a recreational ride / hack / unaffiliated / low-level dressage ride...since she is not a happy hacker. She would "gift" him on the right person, but would need assurances, a contract, that states that he is not to be re-sold (to avoid unscrupulous types from trying to make a quick quid or two). The horse will be fine for low level dressage, he is not lame, and has never been lame, she is just a highly sensitive pro rider, and felt when riding, that something wasn't 100%, and she always calls the vet straight away if she thinks something might be wrong. And anyone taking this horse on would be fully aware of the issue, and would be provided with the last 3 years worth of xrays, and vet reports etc, so they could keep an eye out for any changes. He's a super quiet lad out hacking, he never spooks, he's very gentle and sweet, and he is a big, stunning, young Hanoverian. 

What are the chances, do you think, of her finding someone who would want to take him on, knowing that there are navicular changes which could potentially rise up in the future? They would need to positively manage his feet with corrective shoeing etc, and then, as research into Navicular disease shows, it may not be an issue for many years.... But obviously, the horrible reality, if she doesn't find someone who would take him on, is that he will be PTS in the autumn, which would be tragic. 

Anyway, what are your thoughts on her being able to find someone to offer a home to this chap, where he can enjoy a good few years of low level training, and hacking? He is 4, and already trained / working and competing at Novice level (can do some elementary exercises), completely trained by her, a professional female rider. He has been in same home since a foal. 

Your thoughts/ ideas are appreciated.


----------



## I love my Spanish horse (5 August 2015)

Hi, I had a similar story with my last horse, although with the main difference being I'm probably not a patch of the rider/ trainer that your friend is. Anyway I spent pretty much my life savings on my "dream" Spanish horse, he was beautiful, the sort you drool over on posters as a child and I was smitten. I imported him in spring 2012, by the summer he was winning at royal Windsor and was himself turning into a really nice dressage horse with the help of my trainer, as gorgeous as he was he couldn't do much more than a very tense piaffe when he first came home! 
About 18 months later he went lame overnight for no apparent reason, we box rested him and on walking out inhand he seemed better but as soon as did anything more he'd be hopping lame. Got vet out and pretty quickly nerve blocks confirmed the pain was foot related, some more xrays later, a few hours nailbiting wait and I got the call id been dreading but deep down expected, he had advanced navicular in his right fore with tendon lesions, and the left was showing changes also. I was as your friend totally devastated, the vets couldn't give an exact prognosis without an mri (and without insurance I didn't have an extra grand to spend) but he pretty much said horses with this level of deterioration rarely get beyond field sound even with treatment. 
Once I'd got past the initial shock and heartbreak (I probably cried for days) I started to think fragmatically about it, and could I really afford, or want to keep a horse that was costing me £600 a month just in livery that I could never ride again. Lots of soul searching and asking friends advice later I decided IF I could find him somewhere that he could live out the rest of his days as a field ornament, and at the very best be a happy hacker then that's a better choice for him than with me where subconsciously I'd always be pushing to try and make him rideable again, which may not have even been possible not in his best interests. 
Luckily for me through my trainer we found such a place very quickly, as I'm sure you can imagine the idea of me advertising this gorgeous Spanish horse as 'free to a good home' frankly sent chills down my spine as to where he'd end up no matter what assurances were given. We went to meet this lady who had her own land and about 5 other horses, it didn't take long to see that she was genuine and her statement that if she could ever ride him it was a bonus, if not she'd just admire him from her kitchen window sold it to me. A week later we returned with him on board and it was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do, we did a sale for £1 to make it official and drew up a contract stating he wasn't to be sold on, I was to be informed if he had to be pts etc etc. Nice to have but I don't know how enforceable it would be with the 'sale' of him having taken place. 
The funniest thing is he's defied the vets and is now doing more than happy hacking, I believe he's competing at novice dressage and has been totally sound for the last year. Of course am happy about it but it does year me up slightly inside that I gave up on him too soon and he could've still made a decent riding horse for me if id taken the time, he's certainly a long way from the inevitable death sentence the vet made me believe, if I'd had even a glimmer of hope I'd probably never have given him away but that's something I'll have to live with. 
Sorry not sure how much help I've been just wanted to share my story so your friend knows she's not alone and it's a horrible thing to happen to anyone. I personally wouldn't advertise him, at least not on the big sites as she could leave herself open to the same people I was desperate to avoid, contract or not you never really know what your getting and she'd be better trying to find someone she knew, even indirectly than going down the advertising route. Also if it's more local there's the benefit of staying in touch which unfortunately didn't work out for me as she lives 400 miles away. They do surprise you though, and although he may not cope with top level dressage a lot of them manage more than happy hacking so he'll have plenty to offer the right rider.


----------



## Andiamo (5 August 2015)

Thanks Natwood, that's given me some insight. Good to know as well, that he is still being ridden, and is not just a field ornament. Yes, my friend is exactly the same in her thinking, that it costs so much per month to keep him, that it wouldn't make sense to pay all that money every month for a horse she can't ride (to the extent that she would as a highly successful comp rider). So she would like him to go to someone she knows, but at the same time, she doesn't want anyone to know what's going on, because of her professional status, she's worried people might blame her for the horse having this problem, and she's too heartbroken to deal with that...yes, lots of tears for her too, it's really broken her. So, I am going to try to help her, since she is too fragile right now to take action...she also was not insured, and has several thousand worth of vet's bills in a pile that she will struggle to pay...it's a very hard situation. But who knows, maybe she will get lucky like you did, and her horse will find a lovely home like that for himself  Here's hoping


----------



## Meowy Catkin (5 August 2015)

I see that you are in Germany, but it still would be worth getting your friend to contact Nic at Rockley. If the scans could be forwarded too that would be great. 

If you have the time, reading these old posts about Project Dexter (navicular cases treated with a bf rehab at Rockley, generally after other treatments have failed, or have only helped temporarily) will give you a good idea of their work.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=+project+dexter


----------



## Andiamo (5 August 2015)

thanks Faracat, she's thousands in debt with vet bills now, for the diagnostics, and can't afford any more investment, especially when she knows he won't be suited to Grand Prix level. Transport to /from UK would cost about £2,000, which simply isn't in the bank. Also, she has read long-term studies on various treatments, but they were all on recreational horses, not top level competition horses...


----------



## Meowy Catkin (5 August 2015)

I was actually thinking that she could try to rehab him herself, but with advice from Rockley (I should have stated that really). They are very helpful and you don't need to have their track set up to succeed.


----------



## OwnedbyJoe (5 August 2015)

Things in Germany and Austria may have changed a bit since I was there 20 years ago but is he stabled full time and shod? If so, I would seriously look at barefoot rehab. Especially if he is in the very early stages the changes may well be reversible. But if he is kept at livery in a big dressage yard that option may simply not be on the table.


----------



## Sheep (5 August 2015)

You could give the rehab a go - nothing to lose - princesssparkle on here and her sister nikkiemariet both compete at a high level of dressage on unshod horses (not unshod because of problems, but just an idea that it can be done). Good luck.


----------



## TheMule (5 August 2015)

If the horse is sound in work then a navicular diagnosis is possibly a bit of a red herring, unless an MRI has been done to assess the soft tissue structures. Many vets now accept that the navicular bone can look pretty horrendous but the horse is sound and performing well. It's the associated ligaments/ tendons which are often causing the issue.


----------



## ycbm (5 August 2015)

Has this diagnosis been given on the basis of x rays alone, or an MRI scan? If on X ray alone, there is a very, very high possibility that all the horse has wrong is minor foot imbalance which can easily be corrected by a period working without shoes, and allowing him to dictate what shape his feet should be, since he is not lame. His feet may look balanced on a ray, but that does not mean that they balance to the rest of his skeleton the way he needs. Navicular bone changes on a ray mean absolutely nothing unless they are extremely severe, they simply don't correlate with lameness. The cause of the lameness is almost always soft tissue changes, which can be reversed. Do please get your friend to look at rockleyfarm.blogspot.com, and look at the annual reunion reports where she will see horses with much worse diagnoses than hers doing cross country and show jumping.

I've been gifted two long term unrideably  lame horses for a pound. They both came sound in months with barefoot rehabs.


----------



## Palindrome (5 August 2015)

An interesting article you can may be pass on:
http://www.hoofrehab.com/NavicularSyndrome.html

I think it's a very good thing that your friend acted very early as it would probably make the rehab much easier. One of the most important things is that the horse has a heel first landing.

ETA: I am sure that she will find an amateur wanting to take him on also, the horse sounds like a star.


----------



## ycbm (5 August 2015)

TheMule said:



			If the horse is sound in work then a navicular diagnosis is possibly a bit of a red herring, unless an MRI has been done to assess the soft tissue structures. Many vets now accept that the navicular bone can look pretty horrendous but the horse is sound and performing well. It's the associated ligaments/ tendons which are often causing the issue.
		
Click to expand...

This, unless the horse goes unsound when one front foot is nerve blocked. What you have described could be caused by the start of psd, spavins, sacroiliac strain, kissing spines, and a host of other things. If the horse doesn't nerve block unsound, and she hasn't an mri scan, then she's giving him up prematurely.  

Tell her also that in this country, a contract never to sell him  isn't worth the paper it's written on. What's she going to do if someone does, sue them?  For what loss?  The horse was worth what she sold him for at the time, by definition, so there is no loss to sue for.


----------



## Leg_end (5 August 2015)

My horse was diagnosed with navicular three years ago and I sent him to Rockley. He's been sound ever since and X-rays show improvement. I keep a close eye on his feet and the damage is improving over time. We event at the moment but my dressage trainer expects that we will get to at least advanced level in the future. 

If your friend is serious about gifting him please PM me.


----------



## Kat (5 August 2015)

It would be worth her speaking to Rockley, it would be worth it if it meant she didn't have to give up her dream of GP dressage with this horse. There is no reason why he couldn't do GP barefoot, as someone mentioned a Princesssparkle on here got to GP with her barefoot ex-racer and her sister has a barefoot ex racer at AM. It might be worth her speaking to them too. 

A barefoot rehab would improve his prospects no end. He could at least then be rehomed as more than just a happy hacker.


----------



## Kat (5 August 2015)

Also look up posts on here frpm Leg_end (i think that is her name) she has a horse called Buddy who waa diagnosed with navicular and following a barefoot rehab is back in work including competing.


----------



## Goldenstar (5 August 2015)

It's very sad but she where she is .
In her position I would defiantly take the horse shoeless and see where she gets .
However it's only worth doing this if she can give the horse in management terms what he needs  to give it a fighting chance of working .
He will turn out and lots of gentle movement and Input of time and the right sort of trimming .
IME she would need to give it eighteen months before she could judge if the approach was going to work for them .
However I can say that defiantly the BF approach can work for this type of horse because I have seen for my self it can bring lame / not right horses right .
I would advise that your friend gets a copy of the feet first book by Nic Barker to give her an overview of what the BF approach is about .
The about BF it's time and attention to detail that makes it work so in terms of cost apart from some tweaking of the diet which might cost more depending on how the horse is being fed now however you won't be paying the shoes .
If the horse where mine or came to me I would be looking at turning him out on my friends hill farm in a huge field and trimming his feet every fortnight and giving him a year for nature to do it's work .
It took me a while to get my brain around that horses don't always need shoes when working .
All the horses I own would happily do the dressage horses job without shoes .


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (5 August 2015)

definitely give barefoot a go-its not going to cost anything except a bit of time and research.

he needs to be out for at least half the day though and she needs to be able to hand walk him on tarmac as well as the arena and on grass, to stimulate the foot. it wont work if hes stood in a stable all day every day.

she will also need to alter his diet if hes getting a lot of starch and sugar currently.

my last horse competed to inter 1 and schooled to GP with no shoes, NMT's fig is competing adv medium and training PSG and the new 3yo Goofy is intended to go all the way to GP hopefully barefoot too.


----------



## crabbymare (5 August 2015)

Would she consider turning him away for a year unshod? I know someone in Germany who has a place where they live out all year and its not expensive. he could have time and see how he goes and especially at his age could possibly still make her a high level horse as long as she is prepared to have him kept on an unshod regime and to find somewhere he can have more turnout and stimulation for his feet than the average competition yard over there


----------



## Andiamo (5 August 2015)

ycbm said:



			This, unless the horse goes unsound when one front foot is nerve blocked. What you have described could be caused by the start of psd, spavins, sacroiliac strain, kissing spines, and a host of other things. If the horse doesn't nerve block unsound, and she hasn't an mri scan, then she's giving him up prematurely.  

Tell her also that in this country, a contract never to sell him  isn't worth the paper it's written on. What's she going to do if someone does, sue them?  For what loss?  The horse was worth what she sold him for at the time, by definition, so there is no loss to sue for.
		
Click to expand...

She's had everything checked, it's the Navicular on the xrays that is the main cause for concern, but thanks for pointing out the other potential offenders! 
The point about a new owner not selling on, it's a tricky situation, a bad person could sell this horse on for big money, which would be absolutely unfair to all involved. She isn't insured, and although the mri sounds like a good investment, she's on a small income, self-employed, and up to her neck in bills already. If she could afford it, she'd buy him new legs! but money is an issue now...thanks for your response


----------



## Andiamo (5 August 2015)

crabbymare said:



			Would she consider turning him away for a year unshod? I know someone in Germany who has a place where they live out all year and its not expensive. he could have time and see how he goes and especially at his age could possibly still make her a high level horse as long as she is prepared to have him kept on an unshod regime and to find somewhere he can have more turnout and stimulation for his feet than the average competition yard over there
		
Click to expand...

yes I suggested that yesterday to her, a year in the field, barefoot, but he is a stallion...she is worried no one would take him. Would your acquaintance consider a well behaved stallion? He has only been stabled since last autumn, when brought him in from his childhood place to start working with him. He gets daily turnout, he is out most of the day in a big paddock. It's the new xrays compared with last years xrays that show the changes. So, sure stabling may have contributed. Thank you so much for taking the time to reply, it is appreciated.


----------



## crabbymare (5 August 2015)

I dropped you a pm, it may be possible but would need your friend to have a chat to her. alternatively personally I would have him gelded which I know is not over popular for dressage but it would mean that whatever the outcome he would find it easier to get a place where he could be kept unshod but if he did rehab and go back to her he would not lose a great deal of his sparkle for high level dressage. just throwing thoughts out as I do know the files are reducing there at the moment so IF that was the option it would be a good time to proceed. its worth her having a chat though and seeing if they could work something out


----------



## Andiamo (5 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			I see that you are in Germany, but it still would be worth getting your friend to contact Nic at Rockley. If the scans could be forwarded too that would be great. 

If you have the time, reading these old posts about Project Dexter (navicular cases treated with a bf rehab at Rockley, generally after other treatments have failed, or have only helped temporarily) will give you a good idea of their work.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=+project+dexter

Click to expand...

Thank you, I have just written an email to Nic to explain the situation, and ask for any thoughts on what she should do.


----------



## Andiamo (5 August 2015)

OwnedbyJoe said:



			Things in Germany and Austria may have changed a bit since I was there 20 years ago but is he stabled full time and shod? If so, I would seriously look at barefoot rehab. Especially if he is in the very early stages the changes may well be reversible. But if he is kept at livery in a big dressage yard that option may simply not be on the table.
		
Click to expand...

He is kept in a lovely quiet place, small yard, great facilities, he is out all day every day in a large paddock. Stabled at night. It's not the norm though, I know what you're saying!


----------



## Andiamo (5 August 2015)

ycbm said:



			Has this diagnosis been given on the basis of x rays alone, or an MRI scan? If on X ray alone, there is a very, very high possibility that all the horse has wrong is minor foot imbalance which can easily be corrected by a period working without shoes, and allowing him to dictate what shape his feet should be, since he is not lame. His feet may look balanced on a ray, but that does not mean that they balance to the rest of his skeleton the way he needs. Navicular bone changes on a ray mean absolutely nothing unless they are extremely severe, they simply don't correlate with lameness. The cause of the lameness is almost always soft tissue changes, which can be reversed. Do please get your friend to look at rockleyfarm.blogspot.com, and look at the annual reunion reports where she will see horses with much worse diagnoses than hers doing cross country and show jumping.

I've been gifted two long term unrideably  lame horses for a pound. They both came sound in months with barefoot rehabs.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you, yes it was on the basis of xrays only. I've been in Germany a year, and all the horses I've seen are too long in the toe, and I was concerned about this style of farriery, seems to be the norm here, long in the toe and low slung heels. Maybe an incorrect balance is what has brought on the changes, since he has only been shod since last autumn. Before that he was running free at a stud, with his friends, enjoying his childhood.  It does seem to be related in the timing. In his yearling xrays, the feet were 100%, and Klasse 1 (textbook quality in Germany).


----------



## Andiamo (5 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			It's very sad but she where she is .
In her position I would defiantly take the horse shoeless and see where she gets .
However it's only worth doing this if she can give the horse in management terms what he needs  to give it a fighting chance of working .
He will turn out and lots of gentle movement and Input of time and the right sort of trimming .
IME she would need to give it eighteen months before she could judge if the approach was going to work for them .
However I can say that defiantly the BF approach can work for this type of horse because I have seen for my self it can bring lame / not right horses right .
I would advise that your friend gets a copy of the feet first book by Nic Barker to give her an overview of what the BF approach is about .
The about BF it's time and attention to detail that makes it work so in terms of cost apart from some tweaking of the diet which might cost more depending on how the horse is being fed now however you won't be paying the shoes .
If the horse where mine or came to me I would be looking at turning him out on my friends hill farm in a huge field and trimming his feet every fortnight and giving him a year for nature to do it's work .
It took me a while to get my brain around that horses don't always need shoes when working .
All the horses I own would happily do the dressage horses job without shoes .
		
Click to expand...

thank you for this very sound advice  He is a stallion, so we will need to find somewhere that would take him for a few months of turnout. Hopefully this isn't impossible!


----------



## Andiamo (5 August 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			definitely give barefoot a go-its not going to cost anything except a bit of time and research.

he needs to be out for at least half the day though and she needs to be able to hand walk him on tarmac as well as the arena and on grass, to stimulate the foot. it wont work if hes stood in a stable all day every day.

she will also need to alter his diet if hes getting a lot of starch and sugar currently.

my last horse competed to inter 1 and schooled to GP with no shoes, NMT's fig is competing adv medium and training PSG and the new 3yo Goofy is intended to go all the way to GP hopefully barefoot too.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for sharing this, I will let her know


----------



## Andiamo (5 August 2015)

crabbymare said:



			I dropped you a pm, it may be possible but would need your friend to have a chat to her. alternatively personally I would have him gelded which I know is not over popular for dressage but it would mean that whatever the outcome he would find it easier to get a place where he could be kept unshod but if he did rehab and go back to her he would not lose a great deal of his sparkle for high level dressage. just throwing thoughts out as I do know the files are reducing there at the moment so IF that was the option it would be a good time to proceed. its worth her having a chat though and seeing if they could work something out
		
Click to expand...

Thank you so much! will check my mails.


----------



## ycbm (5 August 2015)

Andiamo said:



			Thank you, yes it was on the basis of xrays only. I've been in Germany a year, and all the horses I've seen are too long in the toe, and I was concerned about this style of farriery, seems to be the norm here, long in the toe and low slung heels. Maybe an incorrect balance is what has brought on the changes, since he has only been shod since last autumn. Before that he was running free at a stud, with his friends, enjoying his childhood.  It does seem to be related in the timing. In his yearling xrays, the feet were 100%, and Klasse 1 (textbook quality in Germany).
		
Click to expand...

To put this simply, your friend does not yet have a diagnosis for why her horse is unsound. The x rays mean almost nothing. It really would be worth her while to nerve block one front foot. If he's then more unlevel, then the greatest likelihood is that he has minor tendon or ligament strain in the foot which would be easily cured by removing the shoes. As he is sound to work gently, there will be no need to start by leading him in hand unless he is sore from removing the shoes.

 Turning away is not the answer for these horses, they need work graduated to their ability. Many which are turned away will either remain lame or go lame again when brought back into work.


I actually shocked that a German vet would give such a pessimistic prognosis on the basis of x rays alone, I think your friend has been let down by him/her


----------



## Cortez (5 August 2015)

Whilst I agree in principle with what has been said re rehab, keeping the horse unshod, etc. with the average leisure or low level competition horse, I think when the subject is destined for a GP dressage career it is simply not worth taking the risk over the long term. If I was aiming a young horse at that level I would want to be as confidant as possible that spending a minimum of 5 years training to reach the level was not going to be wasted.

This is why professional trainers are so very picky when evaluating conformation, gaits, x-rays, etc.


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (5 August 2015)

cortez-do you mean you wouldnt bother trying to rehab for GP as not sure the horse will stand up to it or you dont think he would be able to do GP un shod so reha a waste of time?

just to add-my first ex racer had navicular changes at 6yo, went barefoot and was never lame again. vets were sceptical but proof is in the pudding. she died from a brain tumour but was schooling all the GP work at home.


----------



## Andiamo (5 August 2015)

ycbm said:



			To put this simply, your friend does not yet have a diagnosis for why her horse is unsound. The x rays mean almost nothing. It really would be worth her while to nerve block one front foot. If he's then more unlevel, then the greatest likelihood is that he has minor tendon or ligament strain in the foot which would be easily cured by removing the shoes. As he is sound to work gently, there will be no need to start by leading him in hand unless he is sore from removing the shoes.

 Turning away is not the answer for these horses, they need work graduated to their ability. Many which are turned away will either remain lame or go lame again when brought back into work.


I actually shocked that a German vet would give such a pessimistic prognosis on the basis of x rays alone, I think your friend has been let down by him/her 

Click to expand...

Thanks for your response and views. she does have a diagnosis, and the horse is not lame or unsound in any way, and never has been. She only noticed a slight resistance from him, when riding into corners, and also he was not accepting the contact like he did before, so she called the vet immediately to get him checked out.  She is a very successful fulltime trainer / comp rider, and planned to work the horse in age appropriate work going forward, but now feels this will be too much for him and may contribute to the progression of the navicular changes on the xrays. She had him xrayed every year since he was 1 year old, and comparing against previous xrays, there are visible changes.

I've sent her some of the recommended readings / links from this thread, to explore barefoot in more details, now she just needs time to re-frame the issue and look at solutions. Sometimes when your world caves in, it's hard to see outside the box or to think of other perspectives. Everyone has provided different perspectives, and I have passed these on to her, I am really grateful to everyone for sharing their thoughts. A big thank you to all of you.


----------



## Andiamo (5 August 2015)

Cortez said:



			Whilst I agree in principle with what has been said re rehab, keeping the horse unshod, etc. with the average leisure or low level competition horse, I think when the subject is destined for a GP dressage career it is simply not worth taking the risk over the long term. If I was aiming a young horse at that level I would want to be as confidant as possible that spending a minimum of 5 years training to reach the level was not going to be wasted.

This is why professional trainers are so very picky when evaluating conformation, gaits, x-rays, etc.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly! She's invested approx 40K&#8364; already in this horse, and every month it is an extra 1,000&#8364;, and to have such a big risk, she feels that it's best to stop now.


----------



## ycbm (5 August 2015)

Andiamo said:



			Thanks for your response and views. she does have a diagnosis, and the horse is not lame or unsound in any way, and never has been. She only noticed a slight resistance from him, when riding into corners, and also he was not accepting the contact like he did before, so she called the vet immediately to get him checked out.  She is a very successful fulltime trainer / comp rider, and planned to work the horse in age appropriate work going forward, but now feels this will be too much for him and may contribute to the progression of the navicular changes on the xrays. She had him xrayed every year since he was 1 year old, and comparing against previous xrays, there are visible changes.
		
Click to expand...

There are visible changes in fifty per cent of sound horses. They do not explain lameness, resistance into corners or contact issues.

I completely agree with Cortez for a prospective GP horse though, it's to high a risk. But taking one Euro for him would probably be throwing money away completely unnecessarily.


----------



## TheMule (5 August 2015)

I'd just like to point out that going barefoot isn't a magic solution and strain to the tendons/ligaments in the foot are not going to be all fine once the shoes are off, as sometimes gets implied on these posts.
Case in point, my mare is unshod and has managed to develop changes to her navicular bones and damage the soft tissues in the foot. She is kept well trimmed and 'barefoot friendly'. But wear and tear, a slight genetic pre-disposition and bad luck have all played their part.


----------



## ester (5 August 2015)

She doesn't really have a diagnosis, we only know that the horse has changes to the navicular bone which many sound non affected horses likely have too. 

If he isn't lame I would take the shoes off and carry on as before and see how he copes/take xrays down the line. At least if he does she would know which level to sell him at/for.

TheMule if the horse isn't lame I'm presuming there isn't much strain etc going on. It's definitely not a catch all and a reduction in work may be necessary but I think it is worth a try.


----------



## Cortez (5 August 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			cortez-do you mean you wouldnt bother trying to rehab for GP as not sure the horse will stand up to it or you dont think he would be able to do GP un shod so reha a waste of time?

just to add-my first ex racer had navicular changes at 6yo, went barefoot and was never lame again. vets were sceptical but proof is in the pudding. she died from a brain tumour but was schooling all the GP work at home.
		
Click to expand...

No, having horses shoeless is absolutely fine (mine all are); it's just that with GP in mind I would not invest the time needed in anything that had known possible problems (there are enough unknown ones waiting for us all!).


----------



## anuvb (5 August 2015)

Sorry but if he is not unsound as such then the resistance may not even be related to the feet and could simply be a training issue. Can you give us specific detail on the diagnostics she had done? Plenty of top level competition horses would show up (and do show up ) with navicular changes but these are usually found when hunting for other things and have never been the cause of a day's lameness in their life. 

This sounds to me much more a 'cultural' issue than a veterinary issue. On the continent they breed beautiful horses like they are going out of fashion and therefore they are (comparatively) cheap as chips to UK bred horses. People are therefore much happier to treat them as disposable objects than over here. However it is not unusual for one style of training to not suit a horse, or he is being pushed too far too fast, and there is every chance that he is finding it too difficult at his current stage of development. I don't know your friend so can't make a judgement but there are too many variables to make a call based on what you have told us.


At the end of the day your friend has to make a judgement based on her own financial situation and how much she wants to pursue this horse. I can accept as a pro that it probably isn't her thing, but there is no reason that a perfectly sound horse can't go onto have a meaningful life if more attention is paid to it's overall wellbeing, physicality and work programme not just its feet.


----------



## anuvb (5 August 2015)

Andiamo said:



			Exactly! She's invested approx 40K&#8364; already in this horse, and every month it is an extra 1,000&#8364;, and to have such a big risk, she feels that it's best to stop now.
		
Click to expand...

^^^^ This I get - but if she does decide to sell, tell her not to sell too cheap. The horse potentially still has a lot to offer someone but she will need to be open and honest about it.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (5 August 2015)

Andiamo said:



			I've been in Germany a year, and all the horses I've seen are too long in the toe, and I was concerned about this style of farriery, seems to be the norm here, long in the toe and low slung heels.
		
Click to expand...

If you wanted to try to cause navicular in a horse, the first thing that you would do is to alter the hoof balance to long toes and under-run heels and get the horse landing to first.


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (5 August 2015)

ycbm said:



			There are visible changes in fifty per cent of sound horses. They do not explain lameness, resistance into corners or contact issues.

I completely agree with Cortez for a prospective GP horse though, it's to high a risk. But taking one Euro for him would probably be throwing money away completely unnecessarily.
		
Click to expand...

THIS!

its the same as kissing spine-x ray a 100 horses and you will find some with impinging processes which are lame/sore,some which are sound and in work, some with no impinging processes which are lame/sore and some which are sound.

unles you take an x ray every year its hard to say if they are changes or just how that horse is.

give him some time off and see,dont jump to the wrong conclusion too quick.


----------



## ester (5 August 2015)

OP did say he had been xrayed annually PS.


----------



## blackhor2e (5 August 2015)

The only advice I have is my horse was diagnosed via x ray with navicular / changes and following an MRI the next year (when I could afford one) it actually turned out not to be navicular but a strain to her ligament within the hoof. So I think there is something to be said about relying on only x rays.


----------



## Cortez (5 August 2015)

I used to breed dressage horses on a commercial scale (in the US) and any that were destined for the top end were x-rayed annually from yearlings. I have had promising 3 - 4 year olds that displayed navicular-type changes and were immediately withdrawn from that market. NONE ever developed navicular, but I could not offer them for sale to professionals with x-rays like that. They were sold to amatuer riders and many went on to have successful lower-level competition careers.


----------



## Pigeon (5 August 2015)

Oh I would be so wary about rehoming him for free. In fact if I was in the same situation that would not be an option for me. You hear some real horror stories, and three problems stand out for me. 

Firstly, 4 year olds tend to be quiet. They push the boundaries at 5 or 6 as they realise their own strength and power. I imagine he would go to someone looking for a quieter life, and that sort of person may not want, or be equipped to deal with the hi jinks of a big young Hanoverian.

Secondly, with a quality horse like that, I imagine people would be tempted to push him, say they go out scoring 70% at novice, will they really settle for that? 

Thirdly, you might simply get someone who masks his issues and turns him over for a quick (and significant) profit.

She could loan him out? Might be the safer option. I would give rehab a bash, unless that would damage her ridden career?


----------



## Prince33Sp4rkle (5 August 2015)

ester said:



			OP did say he had been xrayed annually PS.
		
Click to expand...

missed that.

does put a different spin on it but i would still be inclined to go down the time off and no shoes route and see how he is in a few months.


----------



## FfionWinnie (5 August 2015)

If she's going to give him away, what's she got to lose by taking the shoes off. Time yes. Money, not really. She's lost the money already. If she spent 6 months rehabbing him and his feet improved, she could then sell him as more than a lame horse and get some money back. Or maybe he will be fine and the horse she thought he could be.


----------



## 9tails (5 August 2015)

Wow, a big fancy sound horse for free?  I'll have him.

I can't quite get my head around where's she's spent the money, she's had xrays,  that she apparently gets every year, that show navicular changes but you haven't mentioned any treatment.  I don't think you can say she's invested 40k in this horse as monthly expenses are just running costs.  Any horse in intensive training is going to cost that and very few hit the grade.  I would also try the BF route with this horse, especially as he's so young and it seems there's been a lot of training in a very short time.


----------



## ycbm (5 August 2015)

F



TheMule said:



			I'd just like to point out that going barefoot isn't a magic solution and strain to the tendons/ligaments in the foot are not going to be all fine once the shoes are off, as sometimes gets implied on these posts.
Case in point, my mare is unshod and has managed to develop changes to her navicular bones and damage the soft tissues in the foot. She is kept well trimmed and 'barefoot friendly'. But wear and tear, a slight genetic pre-disposition and bad luck have all played their part.
		
Click to expand...

I have known several barefoot horses with soft tissue injuries inside the foot. All happened as a result of a weak back half to the foot, exactly the same reason it happens with shod horses. Some horses get it more easily than others, and for those, there is likely to be  a need for a perfect diet and constant movement, self trimming to ensure that the horse has the foot it wants to match its body, together with a complete absence of any metabolic disease.  This can be very difficult to achieve in some cases.


----------



## Fuzzypuff (5 August 2015)

Personally if it were me and I had already invested all that in the horse I would think I had little more to lose by giving barefoot rehab a go. There are rehabbed barefoot GP horses out there, except the owners don't shout about it that much. I know my trimmer trims at least a couple, and more small tour horses. Mine is barefoot and competing medium, schooling adv medium - and I can tell you if we don't get to GP it won't be the feet that are the limiting factor, even though his feet were quite a state when I got him and I think looking back had I not pulled the shoes when I did (I'd had him a month) he would have been in remedials within 6 months - I don't think his issues could have been solved with shoes. 

I can understand not wanting to invest many years of training into a horse already showing changes, but equally you could buy another horse with perfect x-rays and it could die of colic the next day, you just don't know. 

I am a 100% believer in barefoot and I really would urge her to give this a go. Also the horse is so young still, I wouldn't underestimate the power of the horse's body to regenerate, if only it is given the opportunity to do so.


----------



## ester (5 August 2015)

And perhaps important to note that bone loss can be reversed. Legend's horse showed so on xray .


----------



## Ditchjumper2 (5 August 2015)

My  jumping horse had front feet x rayed due to issue with with one foot. The x rays showed a cracked navicular bone.......in his good foot. Vet said that if it had been in his lame foot they would recommend pts and felt he would be never be right.

OH view was you never x rayed him when he was OK so you have nothing to compare with.

We took him home, and just carried on a although we were cáreful with the ground. He carried on until he was 21. 

There are horses who should be lame and are not and others who have nothing obviously wrong yet are lame.

My view is if they are sound then carry on.


----------



## Andiamo (5 August 2015)

anuvb said:



			Sorry but if he is not unsound as such then the resistance may not even be related to the feet and could simply be a training issue. Can you give us specific detail on the diagnostics she had done? Plenty of top level competition horses would show up (and do show up ) with navicular changes but these are usually found when hunting for other things and have never been the cause of a day's lameness in their life. 

This sounds to me much more a 'cultural' issue than a veterinary issue. On the continent they breed beautiful horses like they are going out of fashion and therefore they are (comparatively) cheap as chips to UK bred horses. People are therefore much happier to treat them as disposable objects than over here. However it is not unusual for one style of training to not suit a horse, or he is being pushed too far too fast, and there is every chance that he is finding it too difficult at his current stage of development. I don't know your friend so can't make a judgement but there are too many variables to make a call based on what you have told us.


At the end of the day your friend has to make a judgement based on her own financial situation and how much she wants to pursue this horse. I can accept as a pro that it probably isn't her thing, but there is no reason that a perfectly sound horse can't go onto have a meaningful life if more attention is paid to it's overall wellbeing, physicality and work programme not just its feet.
		
Click to expand...

He was not cheap as chips, as you have implied, he is a high value horse, with already a lot invested in him. He is also not a disposable object, he is a family member, she wants the absolute best for him.  And I disagree with your comment "On the continent they breed beautiful horses like they are going out of fashion and therefore they are (comparatively) cheap as chips to UK bred horses." This is simply incorrect. He is not being pushed too fast, she has done absolutely everything to ensure the health, wellbeing and happiness of the horse. So, your comments are wrong. .


----------



## Andiamo (5 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			If you wanted to try to cause navicular in a horse, the first thing that you would do is to alter the hoof balance to long toes and under-run heels and get the horse landing to first.
		
Click to expand...

agreed. It can cause all sorts of problems! I had super farriers in the UK, and I haven't been too impressed with the hooves I've seen in Germany, sad but true. 
Worst part is, it's more expensive in Germany!


----------



## Andiamo (5 August 2015)

Cortez said:



			I used to breed dressage horses on a commercial scale (in the US) and any that were destined for the top end were x-rayed annually from yearlings. I have had promising 3 - 4 year olds that displayed navicular-type changes and were immediately withdrawn from that market. NONE ever developed navicular, but I could not offer them for sale to professionals with x-rays like that. They were sold to amatuer riders and many went on to have successful lower-level competition careers.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing this Cortez.


----------



## tallyho! (5 August 2015)

Navicular is a broad term to describe "not enough room" "pinching" "lesions" "lameness" near or at the navicular bone.

My horse had it. Tried everything a metal shoe could throw at it. Awful. 

Took shoes off, tried "barefoot". Was sound enough to jump after 6 months. He also had laminitis which is an added complication but do not write off what nature can do!


----------



## spookypony (6 August 2015)

Will PM you.


----------



## mtj (6 August 2015)

Have also sent a PM - not offering to re home!


----------



## hollyandivy123 (6 August 2015)

ok this is outside the box with no comment on bare foot or mri etc etc.

this horse obviously has good breeding and is entire, would the original stud not consider running him assuming that it is not genetic?  yes the stud fee would not be as good as a proven competition horse but if his offspring  did well it might increase. 

no worries about over working and re selling? maybe a bit of Dr green time off with a new job will fix the issue for revisiting work later?


----------



## mtj (6 August 2015)

hollyandivy123 said:



			ok this is outside the box with no comment on bare foot or mri etc etc.

this horse obviously has good breeding and is entire, would the original stud not consider running him assuming that it is not genetic?  yes the stud fee would not be as good as a proven competition horse but if his offspring  did well it might increase. 

no worries about over working and re selling? maybe a bit of Dr green time off with a new job will fix the issue for revisiting work later?
		
Click to expand...

Navicular inheritability is currently being researched by the German Hannovarian society.  They are trying to identify if there is a link between the size and shape of the navicular bone, adjacent blood vessels, and soft tissue and horses found to have navicular changes.  I'm guessing, that at least at present, this horse's X-rays would not be approved for breeding by the various breed societies.


----------



## Andiamo (6 August 2015)

mtj said:



			Navicular inheritability is currently being researched by the German Hannovarian society.  They are trying to identify if there is a link between the size and shape of the navicular bone, adjacent blood vessels, and soft tissue and horses found to have navicular changes.  I'm guessing, that at least at present, this horse's X-rays would not be approved for breeding by the various breed societies.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly, my friend believes he should not breed, she thought about getting one foal from him (for herself), but decided against it, since it might have a genetic factor.


----------



## hollyandivy123 (6 August 2015)

ok then there is no point to keep him entire, the options would open up for a low grade home (in the sense of not aiming for GP etc not the care for this horse) upon gelding. if she wishes for him not to be pushed beyond what is reasonable for him, then the options are limited to keeping him, loaning but to remain on current yard or close so she can keep an eye on him, as she is an instructor maybe he would be a good candidate for one of her clients? the German version of the blood bank.


----------



## Goldenstar (6 August 2015)

I think in this situation I would cut the horse as well .
He ought not be bred from he can do the job if he comes right just as well as a gelding and it will make it much much easier to rehome him if it comes to that .


----------



## Andiamo (6 August 2015)

Really appreciate everyone's suggestions, I have passed all the info on to my friend, and she is really grateful. She is going to read all the articles etc, and has agreed that he should try barefoot. She will try to find him a field for the winter, where he can live out...might be tricky as a stallion, so she needs to consider gelding him. 
Now she needs some time to consider all the options before making an informed decision, but she does seem to be leaning towards "giving it a go" rather than giving up... Thank you everyone... xxx


----------



## honetpot (6 August 2015)

Its many years ago but I had a free horse with navicular, the owners has claimed LOU as he was bought to show jump. He was the horse I never could have afforded to buy, and I hacked  and hunted him, with only the odd footy day in the 10 years I owned him.
  I am sure there are a lot of people who could not afford the really well bred expensive youngster he is, but gelded he could have a happy life. It to soon to decide his fate, if he was mine I would have him gelded,turn him out and keep him well trimmed.


----------



## AdorableAlice (6 August 2015)

May be I am too simplistic, but if he was mine and I did not want to MRI etc, I would cut him and set about finding a suitable loan home.  The loan agreement would be a tight one with a clause that states, if he becomes lame or unmanageable in anyway he returns to me to be put down if necessary.

There must be experienced people who would enjoy a talented, quality and mannerly young horse and be able to give it a good home.  Not everyone wants to ride at Grand Prix.  

In my view, which is worth nothing, this horse's biggest problem is not having bony changes , not going into corners and not being 'quite right', it is being a stallion.  He is not lame and he does not have mental issues, of course both could happen in the future but that is the case for every horse, be it peanuts the pony or a world beating competition horse.

As a gelding he could have a wonderfully useful and enjoyable life in a decent home.


----------



## ajn1610 (7 August 2015)

I would think you could find someone happily to take him providing he is steady enough to be manageable for a less accomplished rider. What are her reasons for 'gifting' as opposed to seeking a long term loan home or even leasing him? That way she'd retain control and be sure the horse wouldn't be sold on.


----------



## Andiamo (8 August 2015)

ajn1610 said:



			I would think you could find someone happily to take him providing he is steady enough to be manageable for a less accomplished rider. What are her reasons for 'gifting' as opposed to seeking a long term loan home or even leasing him? That way she'd retain control and be sure the horse wouldn't be sold on.
		
Click to expand...

Loaning and leasing doesn't really exist in Germany...


----------



## crabbymare (8 August 2015)

Andiamo said:



			Loaning and leasing doesn't really exist in Germany...
		
Click to expand...

They do if you know the right people


----------

