# Livery Yard that make money!



## T-Bag (7 December 2010)

How do you do it?

In the real world, the cost of livery would be much higher, but livery is still one of those things people just don't like to pay for.

So for those of you that have a heathy balance sheet at the end of the month, how do you do it?


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## L&M (7 December 2010)

I don't - especially at this time of year when lights are left blaring and demands for hot water have to be met!!

I never understand why the average DIY livery space costs less a week than a night in an inferior B & B. A basic equestrian property costs in excess of £300,000, with clients expecting acres of lush grazing, well built stables and other facilties, but with the maintenance of these often out weighing any profit made...

New Years Resolution - give up being a YO/Manager and look for an  easier way of making money!


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## T-Bag (7 December 2010)

A ton of grit for the yard has just cost me the same as a full months DIY rent!!

Keep an eye on this thread syd, it may help.

I suspect money is made by different threads of income, but for every new thread is a new cost.


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## greyshighland (7 December 2010)

What a start to the winter,and my liveries had more haylage than bedding in their stables this morning!!!Think the only yards that will make money are large ones who over restrict
bedding and hay/haylage .
Sorry I cannot give you any advice but you are not alone,time for a change ,all I do is subsidise other peoples horses.


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## cm2581 (7 December 2010)

Why don't you provide a DIY stable and field without hay and bedding. One pallet for bedding and one for hay for each stable. People will be a lot more efficient in what they use if they are paying by the bale!!


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## skint1 (7 December 2010)

As a person very happy with their horse's livery I feel bad reading this thread, I wouldn't want my YO to operate at a loss. We try very hard to obey rules and not use haylage or straw stupidly, mostly because my other pony lives on a place where I have to hustle for hay/straw myself and ensure there is water and everything else and so I really, really appreciate those services


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## Fairynuff (7 December 2010)

I make enough to pay the feed/hay/bedding, the water/leccy, my rent and pay the guy who works for me.Then I have to pay for general repairs, field maint and various other things. At the end of it all, I have a monthly wage of around £350 and a shock of new grey hairs. I go home once a year (for a week) to my parents who help me out with the cost of the air ticket-thats my annual holiday.


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## Rose Folly (7 December 2010)

I only just break even in good times, and run at a loss in bad ones - but don't tell my husband!


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## L&M (7 December 2010)

Skint santa - your YO is lucky to have you and just wish all clients were so appreciative...


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## Santa_Claus (7 December 2010)

well my YO says she does and I pay easily half of what others do for full livery BUT

the stables although safe and adequate sized (actually bigger than most normal stables!) are not smart and are made with hash mash of materials which echos the general yard in that its all safe but it will win no prizes for beauty! (well views will  ). Hayledge/straw where possible is grown on site. Horses share fields with sheep and or cows as primarily yard is beef/sheep farm! Fencing is sheep proof therefore there is wire mesh fencing. Outdoor school freezes in current weather, and infact can't get there full stop at moment due to snow/ice.

I think it makes money as its run as an add on to the farm so lots of the normal overheads are already covered, and there are less than 10 liveries so it really is just an add on.


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## T-Bag (7 December 2010)

cm2581 said:



			Why don't you provide a DIY stable and field without hay and bedding. One pallet for bedding and one for hay for each stable. People will be a lot more efficient in what they use if they are paying by the bale!!
		
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Stroage!!

Stroage is always hard to find, but giving everyone mpre stroage for bedding and haylage makes matters even worst!


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## cm2581 (7 December 2010)

T-Bag said:



			Stroage!!

Stroage is always hard to find, but giving everyone mpre stroage for bedding and haylage makes matters even worst!
		
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Tack room for saddles and bridles (1 peg per stable), feed room (max 2 bins per stable) and 2 pallets per stable. People store their rugs over pallets. That's it. That ain't a lot of storage! A lot of places would only offer outside storage for bedding aswell.


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## BBH (7 December 2010)

My yard doesn't make money but it breaks even day to day. Anything to improve it comes out my own pocket.

I only bought it though for two reasons,

firstly I worked out how much livery i'd have paid someone else if my horses lived a full life 

and secondly in the hope that planning laws will change. All around me has been bought by speculative developers.


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## doris2008 (7 December 2010)

I'm not a YO but I am imagining the only way my YO makes her money is offsetting the winter and summer months. I dont imagine she makes a penny in winter and probably makes a loss.
We are all on part or full livery - she doesnt do DIY. Parts pay £35/week inclusive of hay or haylage or straw. I have ad lib haylage and buy my own shavings in.
Currently all horses are in until it defrosts so she is using double the usual amounts of hay/haylage/straw, working harder - keeping all our horses topped up with nets and water etc when they would normally be out, but still only taking the same amount of money. 
Lights are on more, kettle is boiling much more etc.
However in summer, we will mostly all have them out 24/7 and her costs will MASSIVELY reduce. I for one will not use any haylage over the summer, but we'll all still keep paying the same.
So I guess she has to wait til summer to reap any kind of rewards for her business and hard work.


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## martlin (7 December 2010)

T-Bag said:



			How do you do it?

In the real world, the cost of livery would be much higher, but livery is still one of those things people just don't like to pay for.

So for those of you that have a heathy balance sheet at the end of the month, how do you do it?



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How do you define profit?
Do I get more money that it costs me to keep the horses? Yes
Decent wage? not really
Returns on capital investment? Forget it!

But, I just treat it as an extra income and enjoy it.


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## coen (7 December 2010)

Wow I am obviously in the wrong area, every yard I have been to has ended up costing lots so I would find it hard to see how they didn't make a healthy profit


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## T-Bag (7 December 2010)

coen said:



			Wow I am obviously in the wrong area, every yard I have been to has ended up costing lots so I would find it hard to see how they didn't make a healthy profit
		
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Well I'm sure some do, which is why I'm asking, but it could more likely like many livery clients you don't understand the true cost of keeping a yard!


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## T-Bag (7 December 2010)

So everyone is going breaking even to making a loss so far! not great news


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## SO1 (7 December 2010)

i am sure our YO makes money - the yard is full with DIY liveries and grass liveries. She sells hay, hayledge and bedding to liveries and also charges for services too. She loves doing it though and says she does not consider it proper work as she enjoys it so much.

She is always making improvements to the yard as well so is reinvesting the money back into the business.

I think you can make money if you have a largish yard and are full, though it may be harder on part/full livery though or livery that includes all hay and bedding in the cost.


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## Umbongo (7 December 2010)

I think my YO can just about break even. The yard is mainly DIY's, some assisted DIY, and maybe a full livery sometimes. Doesn't help that 2 of the boxes are used for the landowners horses so they don't pay anything.

YO has 1 horse and a fat pony, so horse is on the market. She gets free wood shavings from her husband who runs a log business. 

I would think the only way she will make a profit is if she turned into full/part livery only. No DIY's. However not everyone can afford that!


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## micramadam (7 December 2010)

Our YO does but then we have to pay for what we use which I think is very fair.
We pay a monthly charge for the stable, if you want a separate field you have to also pay for that. She has a spreadsheet pinned up in the main stable and this is divided (per horse) into columns for bedding, food. (40 horses spread over 1 large yard and another smaller yard nearby.)
We have to take the bedding and hay from her but food we are allowed to buy ourselves or use what she supplies. Hay / Haylage has a set charge per month per horse. Every bale of bedding we use is marked under the horses name. She knows exactly how many bales have been delivered and keeps check on the tally so no-one can abuse the system and I'm proud to say no-one does! Obviously we use more in the winter than the summer. If you buy food from her then the food boxes are automatically filled when they are empty and marked on the sheet as well. 
Farriers, dentist and vaccinations are organised by her so we benefit from a group discount. She pays these and then adds them to our bill at the end of every month. Great when you can't be there for the farrier etc. Downside - no 2 bills are the same.
The solarium works on tokens which we have to buy from her.
She also washes and reproofs rugs which can also be added to your bill. 
Riding lessons from her daughter can also be added.
There is also a charge for turning out and bringing in but most of us have arranged this between us. 
We also have to pay a small charge every month (about &#8364;2) as she has to pay someone to come and empty the muck heaps every couple of months.
The last one to leave the yard on a night turns the lights out and must admit everyone is pretty good about this and we have 24/7 365 access.  
We have a coffee/bar area with heaters (paid for by YO) with a coin operated coffee machine (have to pay per cup) and a coin operated automaat. 
This is not the same at every yard over here but she seems to have it right and is still investing in new facilities every year. Currently waiting for council permission to build an indoor arena and about another 50 stables and lunging arena. 
I love my yard!!
Forgot to say that she feeds the horses but we have to muck out / turn out.


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## Tackytoe (7 December 2010)

Last night I left the yard all fully fed & huge haynets with two liveries riding in the indoor school - I can see this from my bedroom window....... after an hour I so I think to myself 'lights have been on a long time' So I trundle across in PJ's & wellies to fnd the yard abandoned, school lights - consisting of 23 strip lights blazing, radio on, all stable lights on & two bales of hay less than when I left - Pop me head over the doors of the two I left riding to find the hay in there.......

I try to run a 'no helping yourself' policy & left their horses with more than adequate hay - Rant over!!

I have to do lots of freelance work, be it teaching or po picking to be able to make ends meet.....  And I wonder why i don;t go back to office work...!


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## tangoharvey (7 December 2010)

cant believe its not money making - our yard chardges 17 quid for grazing and 25 for a stable, but you get your own shavings etc, you can buy hay off the yard for 28 quid a round but its your hay if you waste it! there is about 30 liveries..I am not brill at maths, but I wish I could turn that much over in a week!


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## Tinks81 (7 December 2010)

I must say i do but we own the property so no mortgage to be paid and we grow our own hay !!


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## T-Bag (7 December 2010)

tangoharvey said:



			cant believe its not money making - our yard chardges 17 quid for grazing and 25 for a stable, but you get your own shavings etc, you can buy hay off the yard for 28 quid a round but its your hay if you waste it! there is about 30 liveries..I am not brill at maths, but I wish I could turn that much over in a week!
		
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£28 for a bale of haylage, costs about £25 to buy a massive £3 a bale margin, and of course to rent/mortage of a equestrian holding is so small that £3k a month shows a huge profit!!!

if rent was a livery yard only outgoings!!


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## T-Bag (7 December 2010)

Tinks81 said:



			I must say i do but we own the property so no mortgage to be paid and we grow our own hay !!
		
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You are a lucky one then, no doubt rent/mortgage is a YOs biggest out going and making your hay isn't free!


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## Umbongo (7 December 2010)

I think it can be money making if you also own the land!! My YO has to rent each stable for £17 per week, livery is then £25 per week for customers. If she increases it to make more of a profit then liveries complain and look to move elsewhere. She has to increase her profit by taking on some part/full liveries, offer lessons etc.


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## T-Bag (7 December 2010)

TinselFaerie said:



			I think it can be money making if you also own the land!! My YO has to rent each stable for £17 per week, livery is then £25 per week for customers. If she increases it to make more of a profit then liveries complain and look to move elsewhere. She has to increase her profit by taking on some part/full liveries, offer lessons etc.
		
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on top of that £17, she will have no doubt Business rates, water rates, electric bills, insurance, wages (either herself or staff) and just a steady stream of things to pay for.


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## chickeninabun (7 December 2010)

So you think me trying to persuade my husband to buy the field down the road, put stables on it and run a livery yard, is not a good money-making idea??
I suppose if you already had the land/stables, at home for example, then it's just a bit of extra cash for stables you're not using but buying/renting to try and make a business isn't a good idea!


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## T-Bag (7 December 2010)

Apart from the 1 person that says she is making money, but owns the place without rent/mortgage, I'm still waiting on good advice from the horses mouth


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## jon1210 (7 December 2010)

My friends livery yard just gets by... but about a year ago they invested in cattle they go to the market and buy cattle at about 250 each as they are only weeks old and then they keep them in a spare barn and feed them the left over hay and then about 6 months down the line they then sell them on for 2000 each at the market so they don't have to deal with all of the slaughter regulations... I couldn't believe it and then they go back and get another bunch of calf's and start all over again.

This is just something at the side of her DIY livery yard and it seems to be working well  
(The numbers are realistic as that's what she sold the last bunch for)

Thanks Jon


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## CrazyMare (7 December 2010)

cm2581 said:



			Tack room for saddles and bridles (1 peg per stable), feed room (max 2 bins per stable) and 2 pallets per stable. People store their rugs over pallets. That's it. That ain't a lot of storage! A lot of places would only offer outside storage for bedding aswell.
		
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I would never move to a yard with that little storage!!!


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## eahotson (7 December 2010)

I pay £98 a week full livery.This includes 2 hard feeds, adlib haylage in my case,4 bales of bedding per month (you can have more but have to pay for it) one tack clean per week,bringing in, taking out, holding for vet etc. and rug changes as necessary.A daily groom and exercise 7 days a week, can be riding lunging or horse walker.We have a coffee room, horse walker and large out door menage.Free trailer/van parking.Think it is good value and turnout usually good.One place charged £65 per week for use of all facilities and staff time etc but you bought your own feed/hay/bedding.Thought that was a good idea.


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## Bryndu (7 December 2010)

T-Bag said:



			How do you do it?

In the real world, the cost of livery would be much higher, but livery is still one of those things people just don't like to pay for.

So for those of you that have a heathy balance sheet at the end of the month, how do you do it?



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OOOOh ha..ha..ha..ha..ha..ha..ha..OOOOh..ha..ha..ha..ha...ha...ha...oh dear..dashes tears of larfter from eyes...livery yard=unhealthy bank balance...but you do meet some nice people and horses
Bryndu


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## Luci07 (7 December 2010)

I am on part livery - I would assume the YO is making money out of us or there would be no point in carrying on!, I have a friend who has set up her own yard and she has invested a huge amount to get the yard to the standard she wants it but has the background to know she needs to ring around for her bedding/feed/forage and negotiate for the best price. You could run a spreadsheet and quickly work out what you would make on a full yard, how many liveries you could "afford" to lose but I would think that with DIY there is a lot less profit to go round.


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## the watcher (7 December 2010)

I am amazed at some of these prices - I pay £40 per week per horse (hay and straw included if I want them) DIY and am on one of the cheapest yards in the area. 

If my YO rented out every box at that rate they would make a living wage for one person, possibly two...but they will never make a fortune


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## FaldingwoodLivery (7 December 2010)

I basically make enough money to cover cost of running the yard and keeping my two horses, to be honest I'm in a lucky position where I don't need to make a wage, I wasn't working before buying the yard and can afford the mortgage without making any money from the yard, anything I make is pocket money for me and I see it as a bonus  

Can sympathise with those who are trying to make a decent living out of it, it is extremely hard work, especially in the tough winter months, and there are sp many hidden costs to running a yard that most people don't even realise, I'm constantly forking out money for repairs constantly! 

The deal me and hubby have is that as long as the yard is paying for itself, my horses and covering the cost of the nanny so I get to play down there all day, then we will rub it as a business, if it starts to run as a loss then the liveries will go and I'll keep it for private use


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## martlin (7 December 2010)

jon1210 said:



			My friends livery yard just gets by... but about a year ago they invested in cattle they go to the market and buy cattle at about 250 each as they are only weeks old and then they keep them in a spare barn and feed them the left over hay and then about 6 months down the line they then sell them on for 2000 each at the market so they don't have to deal with all of the slaughter regulations... I couldn't believe it and then they go back and get another bunch of calf's and start all over again.

This is just something at the side of her DIY livery yard and it seems to be working well  
(The numbers are realistic as that's what she sold the last bunch for)

Thanks Jon
		
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I would like to know what sort of cattle are selling for £2K a head at 6-7 months old... especially when bought for £250


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## jon1210 (7 December 2010)

martlin said:



			I would like to know what sort of cattle are selling for £2K a head at 6-7 months old... especially when bought for £250

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I will let you know what they are when i go to see her why do you think these prices are over estimated?? 

Jon


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## spacefaer (7 December 2010)

I used to run a competition/livery yard

We had 5 DIY stables -  ad lib hay and bedding and luckily had people who respected the system. Own tackroom.  I fed the entire yard in the morning, inc the DIYs but otherwise left them to their own devices.

We had 12 further stables - 2 part liveries - on which I "made" £35/wk each (I did everything for them except ride) and the rest were rides/schooling liveries/my own.

The DIYs were lovely people and nice horses but I made no money out of them, and they cost me in wear and tear to the property.  The only liveries which kept me in profit were the schooling ones - and not even those if I actually costed in my time.  (I worked out once, I was earning £2.50 on one particular horse every time I rode it.......)

My income - from teaching, schooling and competing - just about covered costs, profit came when I sold a horse of my own. 

I was based at my parents' place, so no rent, no mortgage - no way I could've made any money if I'd had those outgoings too.


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## martlin (7 December 2010)

jon1210 said:



			I will let you know what they are when i go to see her why do you think these prices are over estimated?? 

Jon
		
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those are TOP prices paid for continentals (the most expensive) at Newark on the 1st Dec
STORE CATTLE REPORT
A very decent entry although several consignments not forward due to the weather.

Trade for quality cattle was exceptional although secondary sorts were more difficult to place.

Breed			Age		Bulls		Steers		Heifers_______________
					Top		Top		Top
					(£)		(£)		(£)
Simmental		17 months			£800.00
___________________________________________________________________________
Limousin		12 months	£595.00	£775.00	£700.00
			13 months			£750.00	£700.00
			18 months					£795.00		
Blonde		8 months			£560.00	£465.00
British Blue		10 months			£750.00	£560.00
			14 months			£890.00


ETS - I can quote Melton as well, if you are interested, but the bottom line is, that even TOP, TOP beast, don't make more than £600 at 6-7 month old and more often than not are in the region of £400.
Unless we are talking breeders, and then you need pedigree stock.


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## jon1210 (7 December 2010)

martlin said:



			those are TOP prices paid for continentals (the most expensive) at Newark on the 1st Dec
STORE CATTLE REPORT
A very decent entry although several consignments not forward due to the weather.

Trade for quality cattle was exceptional although secondary sorts were more difficult to place.

Breed			Age		Bulls		Steers		Heifers_______________
					Top		Top		Top
					(£)		(£)		(£)
Simmental		17 months			£800.00
___________________________________________________________________________
Limousin		12 months	£595.00	£775.00	£700.00
			13 months			£750.00	£700.00
			18 months					£795.00		
Blonde		8 months			£560.00	£465.00
British Blue		10 months			£750.00	£560.00
			14 months			£890.00


ETS - I can quote Melton as well, if you are interested, but the bottom line is, that even TOP, TOP beast, don't make more than £600 at 6-7 month old and more often than not are in the region of £400.
Unless we are talking breeders, and then you need pedigree stock.
		
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I will speak to her when I next go down about this and I am sorry that my post is pointless now


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## Fairynuff (7 December 2010)

I sincerely hope that the liveries (DIY/full or part) take in what we YO's are up against re costs and begin to appreciate us a wee bit more! I have been told that I don't charge 'enough' for what I offer!!!!! I have no hidden charges and everything is included (rugging, turning out/in, blacksmith/vet, worming,  I also poo pick every day and all fields are fertilized, harrowed and rotated during the summer. What more can I offer?
PS, am seriously thinking of closing shop-not worth the hassle and stress.


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## kibob (7 December 2010)

I make a small profit but we are lucky enough to own our own land with no mortgage.  I offer DIY livery for £80 per cal month incl Haylage and straw.  Have never had to restrict the amount of hay/straw used.  I also offer full or part livery & rent out unused land to the local farmer so this helps push us it into profit.

I am hoping to improve facilities over the next few years - a school and a few more stables.  This will have to be funded privately, but hopefully will be made back, albeit v-e-r-y slowly


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## JanetGeorge (7 December 2010)

jon1210 said:



			I will let you know what they are when i go to see her why do you think these prices are over estimated?? 

Jon
		
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Yep - by about 150%!

I pulled this report off FWI:  store cattle prices HAVE strengthened this year - but not THAT much.

"AHDB said the average price for black and white 18 month-old steers was little changed compared with a year ago at £611 per head in Q1 2010, but 18 month-old Continental-cross steers increased in value by 6% to average £792 per head. Two-year-old Continental steers were up 3% on the year to average £856 per head.

"The shortage of store cattle was also evident with heifers resulting in higher prices at auction. 18-month old Hereford-cross heifers averaged £513 per head in the first quarter of 2010, four per cent up on year earlier levels. Continental-cross heifers of the same age increased in value by eight per cent year on year to average £706."

Prices for two year-old Continental heifers increased by 4% to average £745 per head."


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## Onyxia (7 December 2010)

T-Bag said:



			Well I'm sure some do, which is why I'm asking, but it could more likely like many livery clients you don't understand the true cost of keeping a yard!
		
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I'm sure quite a few do not,but some (thinking more crowded areas ) do make a killing.
The full livery yard I worked at for example,was a  40 box yard,all full livery at £150 per week plus VAT,£10 for a member of staff to work your horse( that would be the working pupils lesson sorted  )one bale of hemp bedding a week(any more used cost £7 a bale) and that was 10 years ago! 

Combine those prices with a skelington staff and a YO who made it "difficult" for clients to have lessons with anyone from outside and there was a very easy profit made.....


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## MillionDollar (7 December 2010)

We do! And a pretty healthy profit too after wages.

I have 23 DIYers and 7 Part liveries. Plus we do services for the DIYs. All liveries buy forage and bedding from us.

The HUGE difference is if you rent or own. We own (own 2 farms) ours.

Also we have a rule that all lights must be turned off when not in use and if you're last person to leave yard you turn them all off..........never have them left on now. And our lights are very low energy sodium lights NO strip lights or white instant lights that cost a fortune to run.

I know of someone with a 12 stable yard and pays £22,000 per year in rent!


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## MillionDollar (7 December 2010)

Oh also never do an all inclusive livery unless doing bespoke full livery. Even our Part liveries buy their own hay and bedding from us (have 1 bale of flax included per week in price, but that's it!).

Doing an all inclusive for DIYs is a recipe for disaster!!!


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## tabithakat64 (7 December 2010)

I'm involved in my friends livery/dealing yard.  
She has two full and 3 part liveries which just covers the rent, her own horses have sharers which covers the feed and worming costs for all the horses. All profits from dealing stock and additional freelance work are currently paying for hay bills and shoeing. 
So through the winter both her and her partner work 8/10 hour days 7 days a week and are running at a big loss at the moment.


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## Honey08 (7 December 2010)

This thread has been so good!  I keep thinking of leaving work and doing livery, but I was working it all out last week, and decided I could get any old poxy job at Tesco and still earn more, with half the commitment and exhaustion in winter (also though about it as I was defrosting water buckets for my own for the last two weeks, and wading through snowdrifts!)

As for the person who doesn't understand why DIYs and grass liveries don't make money - think insurance, rolling, harrowing, toppping and re-seeding fields, creosoting fences and stables, concreting yards, maintaining gate and fences...


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## el_Snowflakes (7 December 2010)

coen said:



			Wow I am obviously in the wrong area, every yard I have been to has ended up costing lots so I would find it hard to see how they didn't make a healthy profit
		
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Me too! if you saw our YOs house & land you would understand why lol, but then i doubt our yard speaks for the majority- and they are so good to us, facilities are amazing and we all get on so well (there are about 30 liveries) i think the fact that our YO is not under too much pressure money-wise there is a more relaxed overall feeling et the yard. Im sure this is not the case for most YOs, & i must say my YO does hardly any work at all over the summer as they have a girl who is employed to do all the yard chores.


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## el_Snowflakes (7 December 2010)

MillionDollar said:



			We do! And a pretty healthy profit too after wages.

I have 23 DIYers and 7 Part liveries. Plus we do services for the DIYs. All liveries buy forage and bedding from us.

The HUGE difference is if you rent or own. We own (own 2 farms) ours.

Also we have a rule that all lights must be turned off when not in use and if you're last person to leave yard you turn them all off..........never have them left on now. And our lights are very low energy sodium lights NO strip lights or white instant lights that cost a fortune to run.

I know of someone with a 12 stable yard and pays £22,000 per year in rent!
		
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yes MillionDollar i think that makes a huge difference. Our yard owners have extensive farms & land and make their own hay/straw which is included in the £200 per month we pay for assisted livery. I can only imagine how expensive it must be if you have to rent fields etc!


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## Tiffany (7 December 2010)

tangoharvey said:



			cant believe its not money making - our yard chardges 17 quid for grazing and 25 for a stable, but you get your own shavings etc, you can buy hay off the yard for 28 quid a round but its your hay if you waste it! there is about 30 liveries..I am not brill at maths, but I wish I could turn that much over in a week!
		
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As an ex boss used to say to me 'Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity' 

If they have a mortgage on the property, have it registered and insured as a business and keep it well maintained I doubt they are making much.


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## Tiffany (7 December 2010)

eahotson said:



			I pay £98 a week full livery.This includes 2 hard feeds, adlib haylage in my case,4 bales of bedding per month (you can have more but have to pay for it) one tack clean per week,bringing in, taking out, holding for vet etc. and rug changes as necessary.A daily groom and exercise 7 days a week, can be riding lunging or horse walker.We have a coffee room, horse walker and large out door menage.Free trailer/van parking.Think it is good value and turnout usually good.One place charged £65 per week for use of all facilities and staff time etc but you bought your own feed/hay/bedding.Thought that was a good idea.
		
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WOW that's a good price for full livery including exercise.


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## Tiffany (7 December 2010)

My girl is on a yard that only offers full livery and I hope YOs are making some money because they work so hard. They run weekly competitions for SJ, Dressage, Showing and Arena Eventing, have a lovely cafe and keep the place well maintained. I never have to worry about my girl and she's settled and happy because she's got a routine that suits her.


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## Kao (7 December 2010)

Wow, I never knew times were so tough for livery yards!
Is this based on literally JUST livery? I know the sales market is suffering too but i know a few dealers who get a pretty good turnover.

Though, there's yards round here that I've thought are ridiculous prices (£50 p/w only including bedding and no facilities just stable and turnout) but looking at these responses now I know why!


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## Toby_Zaphod (8 December 2010)

I haven't read every thread but do YOs not find that when they offer straw & hay/haylage in with the price that there is a lot of wastage or greed in its use? Human nature being what it is many people, when offered something for free, will abuse it. On the yard I am on we pay for stable & grazing but have to provide our own hay/haylage & bedding. When owners have to do this they are a little more frugal with its use.


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## martlin (8 December 2010)

Toby_Zaphod said:



			I haven't read every thread but do YOs not find that when they offer straw & hay/haylage in with the price that there is a lot of wastage or greed in its use? Human nature being what it is many people, when offered something for free, will abuse it. On the yard I am on we pay for stable & grazing but have to provide our own hay/haylage & bedding. When owners have to do this they are a little more frugal with its use. 

Click to expand...

Yes, and that's one of the reasons I don't offer DIY livery. Horses get fed ad lib hay/haylage, but I do it, so I make sure that whilst they have enough, nothing gets wasted. As to the bedding, I include 1 bale per week in price and an occasional (no more than once a month) additional bale, if they need more, they get charged more.
But still, no matter how tight a ship you run, the profit margins just aren't there, really.
I have it a bit easier than some, with lower Business Rates, good combined (with farm) insurance and a flock of sheep/herd of cattle to eat the wasted forage. It still costs me £16 per week to just rent a stable out, then there is all the maintenance, forage, bedding, labour (minimum wage my bottom), water, electricity, etc, etc. Then we can start mentioning capital costs - buy the property, put the stables in, fence the paddocks, build an arena, horsewalker, bits and bobs...
I do it, because a) I like it (bizarrely) b) if I didn't, I might just have to go and find a proper job and c) there is no way my OH would buy a horsewalker or 60x45m arena for my pleasure - tis all for the liveries, I'll have you know


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## the watcher (8 December 2010)

Toby_Zaphod said:



			I haven't read every thread but do YOs not find that when they offer straw & hay/haylage in with the price that there is a lot of wastage or greed in its use? Human nature being what it is many people, when offered something for free, will abuse it. On the yard I am on we pay for stable & grazing but have to provide our own hay/haylage & bedding. When owners have to do this they are a little more frugal with its use. 

Click to expand...

Not all owners! I use no more hay and bedding on my current yard than when I had to buy it all in and store it, in fact I think there is less wastage in my bit of the yard than the rest which are all ponies owned by the riding school and done by the YO and staff. Although staw is included two of my stables are down to shavings/chopped straw which I buy in, and get no discount for not using the bedding provided. (my paddock is better managed too!)


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## T-Bag (8 December 2010)

Tiffany said:



			They run weekly competitions for SJ, Dressage, Showing and Arena Eventing, have a lovely cafe and keep the place well maintained. 

Click to expand...

I think this might be the way, livery to break even (hopefully) and some comps to make the profit, but even that needs a outlay and a running cost.


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## Cazzah (8 December 2010)

The last yard I was on definitely made a profit - the YO's made no bones about this!! The yard had approximately 50 horses and was run alongside a working arable and sheep farm.

They charged £27 per week for stable and grazing. This only included bedding (straw off their own fields) but they sold shavings - at slightly above standard retail price. They produced their own hay and sold that by the bale (with CCTV to check back how many liveries had  ). They also sold feed - again at above retail. Wormers etc were added to bills four times a year.

The yard was a mix of full, part and DIY liveries but DIY was just that. If you wanted extras, including turnout, rugs, feeding etc these were all charged for. On weekends they had 15/16 year olds working on the yard as they cost less. 

There were limited facilities - a jumping paddock and a small sand school. If horses damaged anything you were charged for it and any maintenance carried out was only that which was absolutely essential. It really was run as tight as possible but in terms of making money it definitely did. I think their key was to give as little as possible for the basic rent but charge for absolutely everything else and also sell feed, wormers, shavings etc making a profit on them.


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## MissMincePie&Brandy (8 December 2010)

Well, it completely amazes me how cheap many peoples livery are on this forum. 

I pay £135 a week for one of my horses which I keep on part livery, and £50 a week for my other horse who I keep on DIY livery. Our yard is full with a waiting list now.  All the yards in this area of the country charge these sort of rates (apart from small privately owned places, which may not have any facilities and wont offer any services), and I think it's more than possible to keep things ticking over with enough money to live on by charging these prices if the yard is managed well. 

If YOs want to make more money, then they'll probably need to supplement it by offering other services like lessons or something?


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## Seahorse (8 December 2010)

My friend used to run a livery yard, she paid nearly £1000 a month rent for 15 acres, 22 stables and an indoor school. She also lived on site in a mobile home.
At the time the DIY price was £25 a week but you paid separately for hay and straw bought from her. She didn't charge extra on top of what she paid for that much to her husbands annoyance!
Full livery was £70 a week and she had about 6 full liveries and the rest DIY. I worked for her and kept my horse there for nothing for a couple of years. She had 3 of her own horses too.
She also did assisted livery for the DIYers but charged silly money like 75p to bring in or turn out, and full livery for the day was an extra £5.
It was a really nice yard with a good atmosphere and most people had been there for years, I was there on and off for 15 years myself!
I think she just about broke even, but still had another part time job in the afternoons as well as doing the yard.


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## merliebug (8 December 2010)

I am on a yard (not a YO) with 65 horses on DIY - we pay between £180 - £200pcm for stable and field, but everything else we pay for (feed, bedding, etc etc). We also pay for leccy for clipping, floodlights for sandschool, etc. We can pay another livery £2 for turnout or bring in, and £3 for a muck out. Everyone seems pretty happy.

I reckon they make a very hefty profit, but I appreciate their outgoings must be astronomical - they also have to deal with lots of yard politics with 65 owners plus sharers, etc. I'd still like their life though!


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## T-Bag (8 December 2010)

Misinterpreted said:



			Well, it completely amazes me how cheap many peoples livery are on this forum. 

I pay £135 a week for one of my horses which I keep on part livery, and £50 a week for my other horse who I keep on DIY livery. Our yard is full with a waiting list now.  All the yards in this area of the country charge these sort of rates (apart from small privately owned places, which may not have any facilities and wont offer any services), and I think it's more than possible to keep things ticking over with enough money to live on by charging these prices if the yard is managed well. 

If YOs want to make more money, then they'll probably need to supplement it by offering other services like lessons or something?
		
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What county are you in?

To be honest I would raise livery rates, but there is always somewhere cheaper if not as good!


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## Tinks81 (8 December 2010)

T-Bag said:



			You are a lucky one then, no doubt rent/mortgage is a YOs biggest out going and making your hay isn't free!
		
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No not free but I charge my liveries £4 a bale in their livery (which is cheap for down here) it only cost me £1 to make it !! 

And yes im guessing that is a big outlay if i had that i would make nothing x


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## T-Bag (8 December 2010)

merliebug said:



			I am on a yard (not a YO) with 65 horses on DIY - we pay between £180 - £200pcm for stable and field, but everything else we pay for (feed, bedding, etc etc). !
		
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Do you get haylage in with that?

£41.50 to £46.15 a week, to be honest I feel DIY should be around £40 a week for a decent yard!


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## luckilotti (8 December 2010)

As a few others have pointed out - having to pay rent/mortages kills it! 
I have run a yard (with the help of my mum) for nearly 10 years now. 
It doesnt make money - why do i do it?   We are the only yard in the area with real winter turnout - so my horses are happy!  
the guy who owns the land etc built the yard for us, which we were very lucky to have... but we pay him a whoppppping rent!  after a few years we did actually go to him to say it wasnt even breaking even so we were going to have to give up... he reduced the rent by £50 a week.... but as we were struggling to fill boxes - we in turn had to reduce our stable rents!!!    
as we are 4 miles from the main horsey area, people dont even consider our yard until we talk them into coming to look around... normally they then fall in love with the place!

I wont reveal how much rent we pay... but the estate is for sale for £4.5million... hence you can imagine what we pay to rent 19 stables... 35 acres of land.... indoor school etc!  

when we have stables empty... my livery for my own horses jumps up     my liveries often dont realise i also pay money into it for my own horses and its not all free!

Its nice though being a YO as i know my horses have the best they can, and i know that we run it fairly for everyone


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## merliebug (8 December 2010)

T-Bag said:



			Do you get haylage in with that?
		
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Nope! Just a stable and a field (with about 15 other horses).


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## T-Bag (8 December 2010)

merliebug said:



			Nope! Just a stable and a field (with about 15 other horses).
		
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Where abouts(ish) are you?


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## SO1 (8 December 2010)

i think a lot of YO also have their own horses ours has 5 and if you think how much it would cost and the time taken to look after them to have them at a livery (at least £1000 a month) having her own yard and running a livery business makes makes sense.

I am sure she makes most of her money by buying in bulk at discounted rates and then selling hay and shavings (everyone buys them off her and there about 40 of us) and doing services rather than renting out the boxes/field spaces.

There are cheaper liveries in the area but they are not as nice and people often end up moving back quite quickly and there is rarely a vacancy.

I don't think she could afford not to break even at least and earn enough not to get lots debt and to be honest most working people who have horses do not have large amounts of money left over at the end of the month whatever the job they have.


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## leflynn (4 February 2011)

I know our yard wasn't making a profit over the winter, they were making a loss to the extent we had a livery meeting and all agreed to take the hit on the price going up to £70/wk (hadn't gone up for 3 years!!!).  There are 15 full livery horses (not exercised), 2 horses belonging to the YM and a riding school (approx 25 horses).  We're in the process of buying (long story) the yard as a kind of co-op so we are too acutely aware of the costs and lack of profit involved.  A lot of the profit comes from the riding lessons more than livery fees and we're lucky to get good deals from local suppliers.

We all pitch in with maintenance/coffee/wine/turnign lights off/looking after the yard and people and are happy to suffer a slightly boggy/frozen school and no all year round turnout for the support we get in return, fingers crossed we can buy the yard and make enough to pay our Yard Manager and Assistant and keep our horses in the style they've become accustomed too 
Apologies if that was a bit off topic, but felt bad for all the YO/YM's out there....


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## Spit That Out (4 February 2011)

I don't know how small yards make money but my YO and his family seem to do all right out of having a 80 horse yard, a Riding School, 6 kids of their own, run 3 cars (2 people carriers and x1 5 series BMW), holiday 3 times a year (just come back from a Mediterranean Cruise) and live in a very large farmhouse...I'm not sure if they live on beans on toast but you do here the YO threaten to put up livery prices every year, every time  something needs fixing!!!

Not trying to sound flippant but there is obviously money in horses so if your yard isn't making money then maybe it's the way you run it?


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## royal (4 February 2011)

I'm sorry, I really really don't get why YO's are always saying they don't earn a profit and/or take a salary....

If that is the case for every single YO...why on earth do it?? I certainly wouldn't go to work full time if I earned nothing and I don't get why YO's would?!?! This is a genuine question btw...I'm not 'getting' at anyone, I just don't get it!

there must be something about it that you love so much that you prefer it to  getting a "normal" job or you just wouldn't do it?

But....I've never met a YO yet that didn't have more than 1 horse, at least 1 4 x 4 if not 2, at least 1 horse box and/or trailer.....


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## T-Bag (4 February 2011)

Sedgemoor Chaos said:



			a 80 horse yard, a Riding School
		
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maybe that is the answer!


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## smiffyimp (4 February 2011)

I read a lot on here about livery prices etc and am always shocked at what seems a lot of people get for their money. I am DIY, I pay for the rent of 2 stables and a field (inc water and electricity)- thats it. I pay extra for all bedding, hay feed school lights and all services. This is the only way I've ever known DIY. I can't understand how anyone can make money charging £15 a week, including turn outs/bring insetc and hay and bedding.  (especially at todays prices). This to me counts as part livery and should be over £100 a week. My yard for full livery (inc riding) is £180 a week - add it all up and its a fair price while allowing the YO to earn a living. (Not that I could afford it - ever!)


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## Wagtail (4 February 2011)

greyshighland said:



			What a start to the winter,and my liveries had more haylage than bedding in their stables this morning!!!Think the only yards that will make money are large ones who over restrict
bedding and hay/haylage .
Sorry I cannot give you any advice but you are not alone,time for a change ,all I do is subsidise other peoples horses.
		
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Well I made a slight loss last year, and don't think it will be any different next year. I only do full/part livery for a maximum of 5 horses (plus my own two). I really don't know how anyone affords to do DIY. A friend of mine had to close her DIY yard when she realised that her 7 liveries were costing her more in electric and water than they paid (the livery was £25/week).

I really need to put my prices up. I felt really bad doing it this year when haylage prices rose by 40% but I only raised it by £4 a week and it didn't nearly meet the increase in costs so it will have to go up again this year just so I can break even. 

I do wonder why I do it, actually!


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## Wagtail (4 February 2011)

coen said:



			Wow I am obviously in the wrong area, every yard I have been to has ended up costing lots so I would find it hard to see how they didn't make a healthy profit
		
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Look at my costs for a full livery per week October to June:

£22 haylage
£20 bedding
£8.00 feed
£2.50 insurance
£7.50 business rates
£2.00 water
£3.00 electric
£5.00 Maintenance such as arena, fencing, stabling and equipment
£2.00 Deisel and transportation costs for feed etc.
£4.00 Field maintenance.

Total £76 when nothing goes wrong. Last year we had some major maintenance costs and other unexpected expenses that meant that we made a loss. 

I charge between 85 and £100 per week and work 7 days a week 365 days a year. I must be mad!


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## smiffyimp (4 February 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Look at my costs for a full livery per week October to June:

£22 haylage
£20 bedding
£8.00 feed
£2.50 insurance
£7.50 business rates
£2.00 water
£3.00 electric
£5.00 Maintenance such as arena, fencing, stabling and equipment
£2.00 Deisel and transportation costs for feed etc.
£4.00 Field maintenance.

Total £76 when nothing goes wrong. Last year we had some major maintenance costs and other unexpected expenses that meant that we made a loss. 

I charge between 85 and £100 per week and work 7 days a week 365 days a year. I must be mad! 

Click to expand...


Are you classing full livery including riding???? (there are so many terms these days ) If so £100 a week - PUT YOUR PRICES UP!!!!!! If I add up my DIY cost

Livery (stable and field) £30
Haylage (say 2 bales) £14
Feed (£10)
Services off YO £20
Diesel (£40) based on visits twice a day
Shavings £8

This is an average week for 1 of my 2 horses = £122 a week

I could get all this off you and ridden (?) for £100 a week!!!
I think we're both mad


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## DragonSlayer (4 February 2011)

We used to offer hay inc. for the DIY contingent, but they wasted it. It was dumped everywhere, far too much was put out, so the horses were grinding it into the ground, etc etc etc...

So we withdrew that offer, adjusted the cost accordingly, and amazingly, you don't see any hay wasted at all now.....


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## appylass (4 February 2011)

martlin said:



			I would like to know what sort of cattle are selling for £2K a head at 6-7 months old... especially when bought for £250

Click to expand...

So would I! We can't get that sort of money for 'finished' barley bulls


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## Heucherella (4 February 2011)

Honey08 said:



			As for the person who doesn't understand why DIYs and grass liveries don't make money - think insurance, rolling, harrowing, toppping and re-seeding fields, creosoting fences and stables, concreting yards, maintaining gate and fences...
		
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My YO must make a profit - and the reason is that they don't do any of that lot except insurance . Nothing gets properly mended, just bodged back together. The electric fences are all in a dire state, the fields get no maintenance, and the stables are falling down. We are charged for every little job (fair enough), and for the hay and bedding we use, so I imagine she is doing ok. I, on the other hand, am moving away asap.


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## JanetGeorge (4 February 2011)

jon1210 said:



			I will let you know what they are when i go to see her why do you think these prices are over estimated??
		
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Because an absolutely TOP price for 'finished' cattle (ready to slaughter) would be around the £1700-1800 mark (the top primestock winners at Chelford Christmas show sale made £2.40 and £2.70 a kg - but the average for all show cattle was £2.157 per kg.)  These are 'finished' cattle - so closer to 2 years old.

For store cattle in the Midlands at the beginning of February, these were the average prices.

Hereford cross yearling steers average	427.26
Hereford cross 18 month old steers average	557.13
Hereford cross 2 year old steers average	639.11

So the prices you quote do NOT compute!

Continental crosses were a bit higher

Continental cross yearling steers average	557.88
Continental cross 18 month old steers average	673.32
Continental cross 2 year old steers average	818.68


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## topclass (4 February 2011)

As a Yo I stopped doing ad lib haylage to be honest when a 16 pony is being fed between 120lbs 180lbs of haylage a day and most of was to cust down on her bedding costs so we stopped it and she was furious but we were making a massive loss.  It was pay for one bale get 3 free in her case but she left and now the haylage is not used and abused we still dont make any money out of it but that's the norm.   

As for wages dont get any just about break even with winter fuels costs, electric, water, insurance, repairs, field maintenance etc. I think it's been bad for all YO to be honest.


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## TopTotty (4 February 2011)

Hi, I have run my yard for nearly 6 years.  In that time I have been a satelite centre and trained NVQ's which is where most of my income came from.  To do this I had to have my own horses to compete on.  I had a few liveries and also did a few lessons.  The college could not fund NVQ's anymore so that stopped and when the rescession kicked in I had to bin off the riding school and Pony Club as it cost me more to keep the ponies than I was making and filled up with liveries.  
So now I have just liveries and at first did no DIY but now need to fill the stables to pay my high rent.  I work from 6.30 am until 6pm and then some more later if needed and I teach and do equine massage aswell.
Yes I do have 5 horses from 19 years - 2 years and have though about selling them.  One is my old mare and two I have bred, one has a tweeked suspensory at the mo.  Basically some months I break even and some months my husband has to help me out.  This is so not good for my mental health and we have been looking for a way out for a couple of years now.  I am stuck though as what other job would I do that could enable me to keep my horses.  I also rent a DIY yard off site that I am just setting up to try and earn a little extra money each month.  
There is no money in livery unless you have very cheap rent or own the yard and land.  It is a lifestyle and yes in summer you can forget the bad times but in winter I have more bad days than good ones.....I would love a way out but sometimes it seems there is not one that does not mean selling my friends and babies so I put up with it.
It is 9.30pm now and we are off to check the horses, put up extra nets for liveries and skip out.....not tucked up nice and warm like everyone else who went gone home long ago!!
I am passionate about horses but even so it is a hard way of life at times and I often want to give up.  Yes I know it is all my fault but sometimes you end up in a place that you did not mean to and yes I am trying to change things for the better but it is not easy.  I'm not sure how Peter puts up with me!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. I am also old and tired!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## FanyDuChamp (4 February 2011)

cm2581 said:



			Why don't you provide a DIY stable and field without hay and bedding. One pallet for bedding and one for hay for each stable. People will be a lot more efficient in what they use if they are paying by the bale!!
		
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I think that is a little unfair. My horses are on full livery but we often do Cappy's hay net and put Fany's in her stable on the floor. I am always careful not to waste any, I put what he has dropped back into his net and ensure , to the best of my ability, that he does not waste any. Fany is like a hoover, hers is always gone! Seriously though not all liveries are selfish and thoughtless, we always sweep up after ourselves, turn lights off and help when we can. So please don't tar us all with the same brush. 

I am lucky our YO never moans about haylage use, in fact she will often say "he needs more than that" 

FDC


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## FanyDuChamp (4 February 2011)

Fairynuff said:



			I sincerely hope that the liveries (DIY/full or part) take in what we YO's are up against re costs and begin to appreciate us a wee bit more! .
		
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Kind of a 2 way street don't you think? 

I sincerely hope our YO feels appreciated because she most certainly is. That is why we like to buy her the odd pressie now and then, to show how much we appreciate what she does.
FDC


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## buddylove (5 February 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			Because an absolutely TOP price for 'finished' cattle (ready to slaughter) would be around the £1700-1800 mark (the top primestock winners at Chelford Christmas show sale made £2.40 and £2.70 a kg - but the average for all show cattle was £2.157 per kg.)  These are 'finished' cattle - so closer to 2 years old.

For store cattle in the Midlands at the beginning of February, these were the average prices.

Hereford cross yearling steers average	427.26
Hereford cross 18 month old steers average	557.13
Hereford cross 2 year old steers average	639.11

So the prices you quote do NOT compute!

Continental crosses were a bit higher

Continental cross yearling steers average	557.88
Continental cross 18 month old steers average	673.32
Continental cross 2 year old steers average	818.68
		
Click to expand...

My farmer hubby was very impressed with your stats JG, as would my big bro be, as he is an auctioneer @ Chelford (JF)!!


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## Wagtail (5 February 2011)

smiffyimp said:



			Are you classing full livery including riding???? (there are so many terms these days ) If so £100 a week - PUT YOUR PRICES UP!!!!!! If I add up my DIY cost

Livery (stable and field) £30
Haylage (say 2 bales) £14
Feed (£10)
Services off YO £20
Diesel (£40) based on visits twice a day
Shavings £8

This is an average week for 1 of my 2 horses = £122 a week

I could get all this off you and ridden (?) for £100 a week!!!
I think we're both mad

Click to expand...

No my full livery is everything except exercise. Sorry for the confusion. I do what I class as full livery and part livery which is the same but own muck out at weekends. I charge extra for schooling and lessons.


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## Wagtail (5 February 2011)

Jeni Ball said:



			Hi, I have run my yard for nearly 6 years.  In that time I have been a satelite centre and trained NVQ's which is where most of my income came from.  To do this I had to have my own horses to compete on.  I had a few liveries and also did a few lessons.  The college could not fund NVQ's anymore so that stopped and when the rescession kicked in I had to bin off the riding school and Pony Club as it cost me more to keep the ponies than I was making and filled up with liveries.  
So now I have just liveries and at first did no DIY but now need to fill the stables to pay my high rent.  I work from 6.30 am until 6pm and then some more later if needed and I teach and do equine massage aswell.
Yes I do have 5 horses from 19 years - 2 years and have though about selling them.  One is my old mare and two I have bred, one has a tweeked suspensory at the mo.  Basically some months I break even and some months my husband has to help me out.  This is so not good for my mental health and we have been looking for a way out for a couple of years now.  I am stuck though as what other job would I do that could enable me to keep my horses.  I also rent a DIY yard off site that I am just setting up to try and earn a little extra money each month.  
There is no money in livery unless you have very cheap rent or own the yard and land.  It is a lifestyle and yes in summer you can forget the bad times but in winter I have more bad days than good ones.....I would love a way out but sometimes it seems there is not one that does not mean selling my friends and babies so I put up with it.
It is 9.30pm now and we are off to check the horses, put up extra nets for liveries and skip out.....not tucked up nice and warm like everyone else who went gone home long ago!!
I am passionate about horses but even so it is a hard way of life at times and I often want to give up.  Yes I know it is all my fault but sometimes you end up in a place that you did not mean to and yes I am trying to change things for the better but it is not easy.  I'm not sure how Peter puts up with me!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. I am also old and tired!!!!!!!!!!!!!
		
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You really do sound fed up! Its a hard job and winter doesn't help. Not long now until spring. I agree, I wouldn't be able to keep my own horses if I didn't have the livery. Also, it's cheaper and slightly better than going to the gym!


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## cbmcts (5 February 2011)

I agree that it is not a business to go into to make your fortune!

But - YO who are not making a profit, do you take into account what you would have to pay to keep your own horses on livery elsewhere (out of taxed income!) if you didn't have your own yard? That's profit - not hard cash but still.

I looked at buying a yard a few years ago, admittedly it was unusual in that it had a lot of land and very few stables with little or no potential to build more but while it would have been easy to cover running costs and little requirement to put in too many hours, paying a large morgage made it unviable! Land is so expensive in the south east that this is probably the case for many.


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## xspiralx (5 February 2011)

Genuine question then.... if YOs are barely breaking even or running at a loss, why do it?

For those that say DIYs lose them money, or that they only get a profit from schooling horses to sell - why do DIY, or why do livery at all if you can make money from buying and selling?

There's also the point about paying for livery for your own horses if you didn't have the yard. For those that have several horses it would run into hundreds if not thousands in livery costs a month - that's definitely a cost that ought to be counted as profit.


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## martlin (5 February 2011)

xspiralx said:



			There's also the point about paying for livery for your own horses if you didn't have the yard. For those that have several horses it would run into hundreds if not thousands in livery costs a month - that's definitely a cost that ought to be counted as profit.
		
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I'll choose your post as this has cropped up several times before - my own horses have absolutely nothing to do with the livery business, I do not count their feed, bedding etc as cost of running a business, my books don't take them into consideration full stop.
They are paid for from other sources of income


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## marmalade76 (5 February 2011)

cbmcts said:



			I agree that it is not a business to go into to make your fortune!

But - YO who are not making a profit, do you take into account what you would have to pay to keep your own horses on livery elsewhere (out of taxed income!) if you didn't have your own yard? That's profit - not hard cash but still.
		
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Very interesting point!

I went to a private equine college and one of the senior instructors once told me that the owners had once employed the sevices of an accountant to help them find a way to make the school profitable. The accountant pointed out that if the family paid for all their private horses (there were at least ten of these at the time I was there with all their costs, feed bedding, shoeing, vet costs, worming and so on coming out of the school coffers, despite the fact that these horses were rarely ridden by students) out of their own private pockets, the school would make a healthy profit. The accountant was promptly sacked!


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## hairycob (6 February 2011)

I think that is a fair point. There are enough people running yards to subsidise their own horses to severely impact the prices that people trying to run a proper business can charge. At our yard there was recently some talk of possibly building a school, depending on the finances. I know it won't happen as to recoop the costs they would have to put the bills up to such an extent that the current liveries, who are nearly all happy hackers, would leave.


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## imr (6 February 2011)

My mum used to have a yard. No mortgage and she still didnt make money, just covered the cost of a couple of horses (I paid the cost price of mine). We closed it eventually because it was pointless running a quasi- charity for staff and liveries. Admittedly even as a teenager I thought my mum wasnt exactly using a business brain. 

Now I have thought about this and the reasons why..

1) including all bedding, hay and feed can be a total disaster because you as the YM take the hit on the price fluctuations and people wasting and overusing bed and hay and feed. If you run DIY running a package which includes the bed, hay and feed is a bad plan - better to make people source theri own or better source from you, at a margin on the basis of what they have used. Part and full liveries can be as bad. We offered part livery and the amount of bed and over haying and over feeding was ridiculous. Very difficult to explain to liveries who think their horses are "eventers" who are exploding out of their skin when all they actually do is hack and do half an hour in the school that the horse does not need 1.5kgs of grain a day.
2) not charging enough!! we used to include a brush off but not tack cleaning and no way did we charge enough. A lot of the liveries were filthy and covered in mud because they had cheap and nasty field rugs, so tons of work to brush off. 
3) staff didnt work hard enough ! 4 boxes to muck out a day - they must have thought they were in heaven. Plus weekends off when yours truly would work for nothing. 
4) you have to aim your package at the market that will pay for it. we had a small odd shaped outdoor school which people willing to pay for good full or part livery wouldnt want. We should have offered DIY and charged for the hay, feed and bedding. if you have good facilities its easier to charge more for packages you can potentially make more out of.

Completely agree also with those who point out it can be hard to raise prices when so many people arent trying to make money, just subsidise their horses. My sis pays about 500 quid a month for everything except tack cleaning and exercise and full grooming (but gets a brush off etc) amazing facilities, because she is basically subsidising a cost the YO would have anyway - she has 2 liveries only and then her own horses. To the YO this makes sense but you cant make money that way if you are trying to actually run a commercial operation.

I really hope that my experiences have made me a better livery. I dont mind paying decent money or extra for more shavings, and I know you cant get it perfect all of the time.


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## cbmcts (6 February 2011)

IMHO, there are a lot of people who run yards that aren't 'professional' just hobbies - that's all fine and good as long as they don't expect to make a living from them!A lot of these yards forget to register as a business re rates, insurance and tax which provides a very unlevel playing field for the yard that is required to provide an income.

The problem is that human nature being what it is  is that customers will go for the apparently better value option and some YOs forget that they can't realistically expect to get paid a salary for doing their own horses....which leads to lower/no standards within the industry. 

I really think the horse industry is the last sector of business that tolerates these standards - I'm not sure why - just look at the way SOME farriers, YO's, saddle fitters operate, I can't think of any provider in other service industries that would get away with these attitudes and we would still spend money with them

Again, speaking personally, I think that if the horse industry doesn't start to regulate itself it will find that that it is regulated by officialdom via HMRC and licensing. I appreciate that will add cost and admin to many small yards which may put them out of business but tbf many of those yards are an accident waiting to happen - just read the posts on here about yards 

No easy answer really.


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## xspiralx (6 February 2011)

martlin said:



			I'll choose your post as this has cropped up several times before - my own horses have absolutely nothing to do with the livery business, I do not count their feed, bedding etc as cost of running a business, my books don't take them into consideration full stop.
They are paid for from other sources of income

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Not trying to be obtuse, but I don't quite understand your point.

I wasn't trying to say that keeping the horses would be part of the cost of running the business, but that by having them on your own yard and doing them yourself, you're saving a lot of livery charges that you'd otherwise have to pay to keep them elsewhere.

It might not be an 'actual' cost, but it is worth an amount of money which has to be considered somewhere.

Forgive me if I've missed what you're trying to say!


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## honetpot (6 February 2011)

I worked as a groom as a teenager on a small stud. The owner had lots of money and it was some sort of tax right off as it didn't make a profit.
  I think most YO are optomists and never really cost down to the last penny what their liveries are costing them. They tend not to facter in the £ per hour rate, and the cost of on going repairs. I had a friend who bought a farm and advised them not to do it, apart from the money the aggravation some people cause can not be beleaved all for about £5 a week net profit.
  The only person I think I have seen truely make anything from liveries was a farmer with old out buildings as they get grants/right offs etc that most people do not have access to.


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## martlin (6 February 2011)

xspiralx said:



			Not trying to be obtuse, but I don't quite understand your point.

I wasn't trying to say that keeping the horses would be part of the cost of running the business, but that by having them on your own yard and doing them yourself, you're saving a lot of livery charges that you'd otherwise have to pay to keep them elsewhere.

It might not be an 'actual' cost, but it is worth an amount of money which has to be considered somewhere.

Forgive me if I've missed what you're trying to say!
		
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OK, I'll try to explain a bit more.
Of course I'm saving money on livery fees by having horses at home, but more than make up by spending on a bigger mortgage to have stables at home  It is probably more than the £20 or so pw per horse I would have to pay somewhere.
What I was trying to say, the yard I'm running is separate from my own horses if you like, and that separate yard is not making money, it just about breaks even if I choose not to mention capital costs , if I take capital costs into consideration - I'm running at a loss.
We have another 2 businesses that prop up my chosen lifestyle, for how long will they be able to do that it's entirely separate kettle of fish


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## xspiralx (6 February 2011)

Ahhh yes that makes more sense


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## T-Bag (7 February 2011)

I see this thread is still doing the rounds, clearly many yards out there aren't making any money, they do it because they don't or can't do anything else.

Myself I'm tied in for many a year, but in truth I just want to find the way to make a path.

Yes if you have your own horses then you are saving money, but you can't compare what it's costing to keep a horse on your own yard to having it on livery, it doesn't work that way.

I wonder if it's only big yards that can make some profit!!


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## cbmcts (7 February 2011)

T-Bag said:



			Yes if you have your own horses then you are saving money, but you can't compare what it's costing to keep a horse on your own yard to having it on livery, it doesn't work that way.

I wonder if it's only big yards that can make some profit!!
		
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I think that is probably the case, economy of scale and all that.

DIY livery has to be the least profitable with the downside of the most disruption to your life if you live on site.

Full, sales and schooling livery probably would make a decent living on a medium sized yard (20 to 35 boxes) but does require a fair bit of skill both with the horses themselves and in marketing your business and would be a very full time job even with staff (who are also the biggest cost for this type of business)

If I had bought the yard I seriously looked at I would have needed to regard it as my 'pension' as in continue working full time to cover the mortgage payment and only expect the yard to cover it's own costs and basic maintenance and then hope like hell that it's value had risen enough (hollow laugh, this was 2005/6) to fund my retirement when I sold in 20 odd years or more realistically that the urban sprawl would have overtaken that bit of greenbelt and it could be sold as housing rather than grazing.

Still don't think that it was necessarily a bad deal, just that I didn't have the funds without going to the bank so not for me.


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