# Two questions re. Ben Maher...



## MizElz (30 June 2008)

1) Is he gay?

2) What the hell did he have in his horse's mouth yesterday?  
	
	
		
		
	


	






Now before anyone thinks this is a lets-slag-off-Ben thread, it isnt - I really admire him as a rider! And as far as the bit issue is concerned, I think he has among the softest hands in show jumping - and as Clare Balding herself said, a rider with anything other than the softest hands should never, ever use a bit like that. I just wonder why these riders feel that such gadgets are necessary; if the horse had gone like a dream, I would perhaps be forced to eat my words, but he clearly didnt. And take a look back at the 'glory days' of show jumping of the 60s and 70s - you dont see contraptions like that back then.....okay, so 'technology has evolved', but the likes of Boomerang, Stroller et al managed to conquer all without having a mouth - and nose - full of complex ironwork.....

The first question is just because I am curious


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## lastresort (30 June 2008)

No he isnt gay he goes out with a friend of mines best friend and has for years


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## MizElz (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
No he isnt gay he goes out with a friend of mines best friend and has for years 

[/ QUOTE ]

Righto, thanks for that!


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## saskia295 (30 June 2008)

He's NOT gay?!!!!! OMG that is a shocker to me, I thought he was bent as anything!!


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## lastresort (30 June 2008)

I think its his voice but i promise he def isnt his girlfriend very pretty and thay have been together a long time!!


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## hellybelly6 (30 June 2008)

No idea
Yes yes yes.  Thats my point exactly about bits and gadgets.  That was a horrendous looking long shanked hackamore with a bit too with pelham roundings.  Good on Claire for mentioning it too.  Looked like an instrument of torture rather than a means of communication with one of the most sensitive and tender parts of a horse.

I agree, we didnt need any of that stuff in the 60/70s.  It was a snaffle, cavesson and maybe a martingale.  If the horse was considered strong a drop noseband.  I appreciate things have moved on since then, but I think horses have remained the same.

I remember when a horse had 3 rugs a New Zealand, a string vest sweat rug and a jute stable rug!  It was considered very sophisticated when the blue NZ first came out.


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## dianchi (30 June 2008)

The bit was discussed in another thread, same as rob wittaker users in Finbarr.
And as ever its how its used affects the serverity


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## MizElz (30 June 2008)

So......have horses got 'stronger', or have riders become weaker/less inclined to counteract strength through other means? Or have jumping tracks become more technical, making the ability to stop/turn on a sixpence a necessity for safety when jumping? The thing is, if this is the case, then these contraptions (cannot think of another way to refer to them in a collective sense) still dont work. How many of those horses yesterday were still having their heads tugged and yanked in an effort to stop? Contraption or snaffle, there seems to be no difference - a strong horse remains strong. 

Whatever happened to a double bridle?


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## blackcob (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


I agree, we didnt need any of that stuff in the 60/70s.  It was a snaffle, cavesson and maybe a martingale. 

[/ QUOTE ]

My mum's Pony Club manual of horsemanship, circa 1980ish, only includes snaffles (jointed, french link, full cheek and twisted wire, in loose ring or eggbutt), pelhams, double bridles, kimblewicks, running gags and Dr Bristols. Anything other than the plainer of the snaffles is described as a harsh bit, and the gag and Dr Bristol come with quite harsh caveats on their use. I can't remember the exact wording but it is made very clear that you shouldn't be using those bits! Whoever wrote that would be turning in their grave at the moment. 

I love the idea of little 14.2hh Stroller going around the course in a snaffle and little else, it's a little girl's pony dream come true.


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## Bossanova (30 June 2008)

Sjers ride a very different type of horse nowadays- the warmblood is designed to be powerful and strong. Courses are more technical now too, it's no longer about massive jumps, its about tricky distances and turns. Maybe those two things contribute


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## blackcob (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


Whatever happened to a double bridle? 







[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure I saw a couple of double bridles used, and from what I saw they were being used quite effectively. But I do agree with you, a double bridle used to be the be all and end all, whereas now it's probably regarded as quite a mild set up as there are so many stronger options.


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## Ziggy_ (30 June 2008)

IMHO - 

1. top horses have got sharper, faster, more intelligent and probably fitter, and therefore more difficult to ride

2. riders want results earlier so are probably more inclined to skip early schooling in favour of getting out competing

3. i would have put money on that guy being gay!!


i am only 20 so don't quote me on the 1st 2 points, also in my experience when a horse gets strong and excitable its brakes will tend to fail no matter what tack you have


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## pinktiger (30 June 2008)

two quite different questions 
	
	
		
		
	


	









first que,,, eeerrrrm dont kno, why do think hes hot???

second que,,,,, is a very large piece of kit, that would scare me to hold it let alone put it in my horses mouth!!!  It appears to me to act upon nose, poll, and over the tongue, dont think a double bridle would do all this!!!  However scary it mayb to us,,,, he knows what hes doing, and tech has moved on so much since times began (thankfully) hes on his way to the olympics!!!  Is a lovely rider with as has been said the kindest hands, learnt i xpect from riding the very quirkiest horses!!!!


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## carys220 (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


I love the idea of little 14.2hh Stroller going around the course in a snaffle and little else, it's a little girl's pony dream come true. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I think Stoller sometimes wore a grackle.


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## BigRed (30 June 2008)

Ben Maher and the Whitaker guy who rides Finbar are both very small men, riding big powerful horses, maybe that is part of the reason they have these contraptions on their horses.  Ben Mahers' horse looked very happy in the bit he was in, better than being hauled around wearing a snaffle.


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## Halfstep (30 June 2008)

Boomerang went in a very long shanked German hackamore.....


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## MizElz (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


Riders want results earlier so are probably more inclined to skip early schooling in favour of getting out competing



[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a VERY important point. 

In a way I can speak a little from experience; I am no professional show jumper, but we did a fair bit in the first few years of having Ellie. We got carried away by her talent and ability - we jumped out of British Novice in just two outings (stupidly - we hadnt read the rule book and had no idea how it all worked.) At the time, we just thought, hey, this horse can jump! And having never showjumped properly before, we went into it blind. I will admit that we used some 'gadgets' - draw reins, bungees etc, although she has always been snaffle mouthed - yet now I have given up showjumping, I look back and realise just how much basic schooling we missed out on. As a result, I now have a 13 yr old horse who, although immensely talented in the jumping ring, has developed muscles in places that mean basic dressage is almost impossible. If I had not been in such a rush to keep 'climbing the ladder' as such, and had done things properly from the start, I cannot help but think that we may have got even further, even if it had taken more time.

A little different to the situation of the professionals, I know, but the morals seem the same. Nobody can argue that time and patience reap the best results with horses, can they?


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## blackcob (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


I think Stoller sometimes wore a grackle. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't destroy my dream 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I'm sure he was in a cavesson for Hickstead.


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## Ezme (30 June 2008)

I think prize money might have something to do with it too, to make even the smallest amount of money from SJ'ing full time you need a v big string. It probs contributes to time issues + the big warmblood rather than sensitive hotblood type


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## carys220 (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I love the idea of little 14.2hh Stroller going around the course in a snaffle and little else, it's a little girl's pony dream come true. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I think Stoller sometimes wore a grackle. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup:


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## MizElz (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Boomerang went in a very long shanked German hackamore..... 

[/ QUOTE ]

I still wouldnt say that ranks as a 'contraption' in the league of the type of thing Ben's horse (and others - I dont want him to be singled out here!) were wearing. Peter Charles's Corrada could only ever go in a hackamore.....I do agree that it is horses for courses, and each horse has individual and unique needs, but some of these bits are getting weirder and more outlandish, and I for one cannot see what purpose they are serving.

Of course, the key to this might be for us all to go and try and ride Alfredo in a snaffle/pelham/double and try to prove Ben's choice of bit wrong....do you think he would oblige us?  
	
	
		
		
	


	









*foresees a couple of HHOers taking turns to smoothly coax Alfredo round the Derby course in a little loose ring snaffle*


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## MizElz (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


Yup:






[/ QUOTE ]

*in true HHO style*

But.....but.....that grackle is fitted faaaaaaaaaaaaaar too low, and it is crooked!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## blackcob (30 June 2008)

I don't think it's too low, I think most people nowadays fit it far too high right across the bones of the face. It is crooked though. And decidedly not a cavesson. Hmph.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





-sniff- Still, he's an inspiration to those of us with teeny tiny horses.


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## BigBird146 (30 June 2008)

Flippin heck... never seen the derby bank ridden like that!! (CarysDB's old pic). Scary!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




Doh, you've just removed the pic!! She was leaning forward over it's neck going down the bank.


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## madmav (30 June 2008)

But everything to do with horses involves more gear and complexity now. Was much simpler - and cheaper - in the days of Stroller! (And his grackle was the height of sophistication then).


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## JM07 (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
No he isnt gay he goes out with a friend of mines best friend and has for years 

[/ QUOTE ]

IS HE NOT???  
	
	
		
		
	


	








Now i am lost for words...


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## Starbucks (30 June 2008)

Thing is though MizElz - do you actually know how it works and if it is really that terrible?? You say the horse didn't go very well - I'd say 8 faults it pretty good!!!  Joint 3rd anyhow!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I just think it's so boring the whole "well we never needed all that back in the day...." 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Things change!!!

Oh yea - I thought he was gay too!


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## carys220 (30 June 2008)

Hope this makes you feel better blackcob:


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## JM07 (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Yup:






[/ QUOTE ]

*in true HHO style*

But.....but.....that grackle is fitted faaaaaaaaaaaaaar too low, and it is crooked!!!!!!!!!!!!   
	
	
		
		
	


	

















[/ QUOTE ]

i wouldnt say it was too low..its a bog standard grackle..not a "mexican" and they were fitted below the cheek bones either side of the face..as this is.


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## TarrSteps (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Riders want results earlier so are probably more inclined to skip early schooling in favour of getting out competing



[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a VERY important point. 

In a way I can speak a little from experience; I am no professional show jumper, but we did a fair bit in the first few years of having Ellie. We got carried away by her talent and ability - we jumped out of British Novice in just two outings (stupidly - we hadnt read the rule book and had no idea how it all worked.) At the time, we just thought, hey, this horse can jump! And having never showjumped properly before, we went into it blind. I will admit that we used some 'gadgets' - draw reins, bungees etc, although she has always been snaffle mouthed - yet now I have given up showjumping, I look back and realise just how much basic schooling we missed out on. As a result, I now have a 13 yr old horse who, although immensely talented in the jumping ring, has developed muscles in places that mean basic dressage is almost impossible. If I had not been in such a rush to keep 'climbing the ladder' as such, and had done things properly from the start, I cannot help but think that we may have got even further, even if it had taken more time.

A little different to the situation of the professionals, I know, but the morals seem the same. Nobody can argue that time and patience reap the best results with horses, can they? 

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's a very brave post, ME.  I suspect versions of your story happen a great deal more often than is admitted and every explanation gets put forward except that one.

It's complicated . . . time and patience is so important.  But then so is doing the right thing at the right time and taking advantage of the best situations as they come.  The most important thing is to keep listening to the horse and thinking about the future, not just the moment.

But that's a tough sell in a world where everything is dependent on the "now" and so many people think they will get endless chances to get it right or, if it does go wrong, the fault must be in the stars, not themselves.  (Of course the stars can get it wrong, too, especially if the horse is not cut out for the job.)


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## hellybelly6 (30 June 2008)

Starbucks - of course everything changes, but its not always for the best and in the interests of the horse.

I agree that its better to have a slightly stronger bit used softly than a mild bit being used strongly, but its not good to have more metalwork in a horses mouth than an iron mongers and still jag the animal in the mouth like a lot of riders were doing yesterday.


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## blackcob (30 June 2008)

Yay!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Do you think if I print that picture off and stick it up in my 14.2hh's stable she will take the hint?


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## MizElz (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Thing is though MizElz - do you actually know how it works and if it is really that terrible?? You say the horse didn't go very well - I'd say 8 faults it pretty good!!!  Joint 3rd anyhow!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I just think it's so boring the whole "well we never needed all that back in the day...." 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Things change!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

Things do change, but not always for the better.......

I never said that Ben's horse did awfully, but having won the competition before in arguably better company, he didnt seem as happy as I have seen him in the past. Of course, there is nothing to say it was the bit alone that made him have 8 faults.....it just didnt please me to see such metalwork in a horse's mouth. I would be going against my personal principles if I said otherwise!

To say that the 'well we never needed that back in the day' argument is "boring" seems a bit strange....there are pros and cons of both traditional and modern methods and techniques, and that is what makes them so interesting to discuss!


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## H's mum (30 June 2008)

Yes she is - tall slim and very pretty! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




Kate x


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## Starbucks (30 June 2008)

So he won it on four faults and then had eight faults this year... one of which was his fault at the last fence... yep a massive drop in form I'd say! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I don't exactly see what the point of this thread is - do you think bits like this should be banned from competition?  Do you think that they are cruel??  At the end of the day, Ben Mayer can use what ever tack he wants and, to me, he seems to be doing pretty well!


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## apkelly01 (30 June 2008)

It looks like this bit:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Connie-Combs-6013-Co...7QQcmdZViewItem


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## CrazyHippo1 (30 June 2008)

Im pretty sure Alfredo has been in that combination bit for a while though, and had good results in it.

Being a bit bored and nosey...

http://www.benmaher.co.uk/gallery.htm

If you look at the pics of Ben Alfredo is in the same bit. So clearly the horse is happy in that bit, and was maybe just a bit too fresh/unlucky yesterday.

IMO whether its a snaffle or a combination it's the hands that make a bit harsh, yes some bits are sharper than others but then the rider must rider quieter with a stronger bit. If the bit works for the horse, without riding the horse yourself, I dont think you can judge too much on whats in their mouth


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## carys220 (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
So he won it on four faults and then had eight faults this year... one of which was his fault at the last fence... yep a massive drop in form I'd say! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I don't exactly see what the point of this thread is - do you think bits like this should be banned from competition?  Do you think that they are cruel??  At the end of the day, Ben Mayer can use what ever tack he wants and, to me, he seems to be doing pretty well! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I think the point is: is it necessary? Is the horse really that strong and could it have not been schooled to listen rather than him just holding on to it's mouth? I've always had ponies and horses in snaffles(until someone decided to put a driving bit in my fell pony's mouth and made her strong!). If the horse has been schooled as far as it can and it still needs the contraption then fair enough....but from experience, you can very easily spoil a good horse by what you put in it's mouth. IMO


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## Starbucks (30 June 2008)

So that blows your theory out of the water ME.  I think you should no all the facts before criticising people...


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## siennamum (30 June 2008)

We may not have had such sophisticated bitting contraptions in the 60's &amp; 70's but horses were certainly ridden in horrible bits and gadgets. Plenty of twisted snaffles, magennis snaffles, horses &amp; ponies ridden in curbs alone etc etc.
Horses were maybe not prepared for young horse classes but they were expected to be out competing and working hard when youngsters, (I was Open TC &amp; hunting my 4 year old  
	
	
		
		
	


	




)
The Germans in particular were a complete nighmare for having jumping horses overbent and bitted up to the eyeballs. It was only when the Americans arrived on the scene trained by George Morris and demonstrated that horses could physically jump in a snaffle with no martingale and free head carriage that things changed. That wasn't till the early 80's.


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## Starbucks (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


I think the point is: is it necessary? Is the horse really that strong and could it have not been schooled to listen rather than him just holding on to it's mouth? I've always had ponies and horses in snaffles(until someone decided to put a driving bit in my fell pony's mouth and made her strong!). If the horse has been schooled as far as it can and it still needs the contraption then fair enough....but from experience, you can very easily spoil a good horse by what you put in it's mouth. IMO  

[/ QUOTE ] 

How can the horse be in anyway described as spoiled??  He's a brilliant horse who is still going really really well.  With all respect, I think you and your fell pony are a bit different to Ben Meher and Alfredo going round the Hickstead Derby!


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## MizElz (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
So that blows your theory out of the water ME.  I think you should no all the facts before criticising people... 

[/ QUOTE ]

And I think you should back off and read threads fully and carefully without making immature judgements. No one is 'judging' anyone - I was careful to say that I respect Ben greatly as a rider, and that this was not an attack on him, but rather a discussion about the whys, wherefores and reasons as to why this kind of bit may or may not be used. I have not once mentioned 'cruelty', nor do I have any 'theories', and as far as I am aware, nothing I have said has been 'blown out of the water'. Grow up a bit, SB - we were having a very reasonable discussion before you got on the ar5e


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## MizElz (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
How can the horse be in anyway described as spoiled??  He's a brilliant horse who is still going really really well.  With all respect, I think you and your fell pony are a bit different to Ben Meher and Alfredo going round the Hickstead Derby! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Now that is just plain spiteful


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## babymare (30 June 2008)

I think that the pressure for quick results in all our lives - not just equstrian - ewncourages quick fixes.  Horses are pushed more and the basic schooling is missed.  Horses are asked to give more and more sooner and sooner.  They are not allowed to mature.  How often do u see junior riders with every gadget known to man fitted - over fed ponies? bad riding ? lack of schooling ? Oh to go back to basics.


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## carys220 (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 [ QUOTE ]


I think the point is: is it necessary? Is the horse really that strong and could it have not been schooled to listen rather than him just holding on to it's mouth? I've always had ponies and horses in snaffles(until someone decided to put a driving bit in my fell pony's mouth and made her strong!). If the horse has been schooled as far as it can and it still needs the contraption then fair enough....but from experience, you can very easily spoil a good horse by what you put in it's mouth. IMO  

[/ QUOTE ] 

How can the horse be in anyway described as spoiled??  He's a brilliant horse who is still going really really well.  With all respect, I think you and your fell pony are a bit different to Ben Meher and Alfredo going round the Hickstead Derby! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I did say FROM EXPERIENCE and IMO, I second what ME has said.


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## StaceyTanglewood (30 June 2008)

this thread is hilarious - Ben only rode in a snaffle and a hackamore - what is wrong with that much better than some of the bits you see used ????????


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## Starbucks (30 June 2008)

I'm not being spiteful at all, just stating the truth!!  I personally wouldn't compare my experiences with that of the likes of someone going round the Derby, frankly because I just don't think they are comparable..

I suppose I could have left the  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 off the end, sorry for any offense caused...


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## dieseldog (30 June 2008)

Question 1, I can't answer - only Ben can.

Question 2, Horses have changed, the courses have changed from big heavy poles to lightweight technical tracks.  The pros themselves say that the horses they rode in the past would not be good enough now to jump.  The equipment has changed, it has become more technical, but it has changed for the better.

Question 3 - How long before admin deletes this thread?


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## carys220 (30 June 2008)

Only because she was smaller? She was an excellent pony, well schooled, jumped 4ft and fast.


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## 0 (30 June 2008)

Hmmmm, a really interesting discussion, shame it had to descend into you taking offence on Ben's behalf, SB


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## MizElz (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not being spiteful at all, just stating the truth!!  I personally wouldn't compare my experiences with that of the likes of someone going round the Derby, frankly because I just don't think they are comparable..



[/ QUOTE ]

Not directly comparable, no - but I would argue that it takes the same amount of control to ride a 2ft clear round at your local Gymkhana as it would to jump 5ft around a Derby. If control is what we are discussing here....


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## Starbucks (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

Only because she was smaller? She was an excellent pony, well schooled, jumped 4ft and fast.  

[/ QUOTE ] 

Oh ok then, just the same. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




















!!!!!


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## MizElz (30 June 2008)

Diesel Dog - why on earth should the thread be deleted? I for one have found this to be a really interesting discussion


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## BigBird146 (30 June 2008)

I agree with Ripples... not sure why it go so stroppy 
	
	
		
		
	


	




, the bit debate was interesting and I have learnt something new, a result for a Monday morning!!


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## Starbucks (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
     Quote:
    I'm not being spiteful at all, just stating the truth!! I personally wouldn't compare my experiences with that of the likes of someone going round the Derby, frankly because I just don't think they are comparable..


Not directly comparable, no - but I would argue that it takes the same amount of control to ride a 2ft clear round at your local Gymkhana as it would to jump 5ft around a Derby. If control is what we are discussing here....


[/ QUOTE ] 

Do you think so??  I disagree.  At a 2 ft clear round you would get away with generally steering in the right direction.. and you would probably get a clear round.

To jump 5 ft around a derby, you would need to be able to shorten/lengthen your horses stride at all times, be able to get them back from a gallop (i.e. after the water, before the rails) and stop dead with in a couple of strides on the top of the bank...  Not quite the same at all??


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## carys220 (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 [ QUOTE ]

Only because she was smaller? She was an excellent pony, well schooled, jumped 4ft and fast.  

[/ QUOTE ] 

Oh ok then, just the same. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




















!!!!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

What is that meant to mean? If she was 16.2hh she could've easily been at the derby. I don't see your point.....at the end of the day, all I said was that she was in a snaffle until some numpty spolied her by putting a driving bit in her mouth. In fact, I was never actually comparing her to any showjumper, just pointing out my OWN experiences!!


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## Starbucks (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 Diesel Dog - why on earth should the thread be deleted? I for one have found this to be a really interesting discussion 

[/ QUOTE ] 

I think she probably means it's that D word (don't have a clue how to spell it!!) against Ben... I don't think so though, but maybe discussing his sexuality is a bit cheeky!


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## 0 (30 June 2008)

Have you missed the point, SB? Or are you wanting an argument?

Ben is using a bit that most have not seen the like of and because of its complexity, most are interested as to what its effect is compared to more conventional bits and the process of bit evolution specifically related to showjumping.

You seem to be jumping to Ben's defence when there is really no cause to.


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## Starbucks (30 June 2008)

Sorry, not meaning to be stroppy. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  Carys - you should have had a crack at it - stroller was only 14.2 and he won it!


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## MizElz (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

Do you think so??  I disagree.  At a 2 ft clear round you would get away with generally steering in the right direction.. and you would probably get a clear round.

To jump 5 ft around a derby, you would need to be able to shorten/lengthen your horses stride at all times, be able to get them back from a gallop (i.e. after the water, before the rails) and stop dead with in a couple of strides on the top of the bank...  Not quite the same at all?? 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Yes, I agree you possibly would get away with it at 2ft - but even then some top horses jump for fun and could clear 5ft from a near standstill..... my point is more about being able to ride a controlled round, and ultimately if it is control and balance you are aiming for, it should not matter whether the fences are 2ft or 5ft. I wouldnt say a horse looks at a 5ft course and think 'Aha! These fences are huge, I must gallop really fast and pull my riders arms off.' Equally, many ponies would take a hell of a lot of balancing around a 2ft course, but it isnt because of the height - its just their way of going.


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## TarrSteps (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
We may not have had such sophisticated bitting contraptions in the 60's &amp; 70's but horses were certainly ridden in horrible bits and gadgets. Plenty of twisted snaffles, magennis snaffles, horses &amp; ponies ridden in curbs alone etc etc.
Horses were maybe not prepared for young horse classes but they were expected to be out competing and working hard when youngsters, (I was Open TC &amp; hunting my 4 year old  
	
	
		
		
	


	




)
The Germans in particular were a complete nighmare for having jumping horses overbent and bitted up to the eyeballs. It was only when the Americans arrived on the scene trained by George Morris and demonstrated that horses could physically jump in a snaffle with no martingale and free head carriage that things changed. That wasn't till the early 80's. 

[/ QUOTE ]

A clear eyed view of the past (now that I'm old enough to remember it I'd agree I can't remember it being all roses, sunshine and happy, good jumping horses) AND a pro-American Jumping School comment.  

Yikes! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Not really just George's work originally, although he's arguably the most famous practitioner.  Interestingly a lot of that thinking was a combination of the American hunter ring practices (Gordon Wright, Raymond Burr, Cappy Smith), military trained influence (Woffard, later Wright etc.), and imported Europeans (de Nemethy, Littauer,) which came together in trainers like George, Rodney Jenkins and Bernie Traurig in the '60s.  But at that point the "schools" were still pretty separate - it took modern improvements in transportation and communication to really kick off the far more homogeneous modern style.

Interesting that William Whittaker has received a fair bit of education and experience in the US - he certainly rides quite like some of the American kids.  (Who in their turn have either spent time in Europe or have trainers who have European as well as American influences.)

Just if there are any other geeks out there with interest in this stuff.  (I do think it's important though - if people are going to make sweeping statements about how things are or how they used to be it helps to have all the facts.)

I don't think anyone is saying particular bits are "wrong", they are simply specific tools for specific circumstances.  Everything that has been invented exists for a reason.) I think the real issue is that they are NOT to "fix" problems or to deal with basic issues, they are to put the finishing touches on a performance that requires immense feel and precision, especially in today's technical competitions.  Just because a GP horse uses something doesn't mean, quite frankly, it has any other application.

And it's quite possible to rush a horse's training in a snaffle.


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## carys220 (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, not meaning to be stroppy. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  Carys - you should have had a crack at it - stroller was only 14.2 and he won it! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]






 she did like going down hills! She probably would've cantered half way down the bank and then took off over the jump, she was 'economical' like that!


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## Starbucks (30 June 2008)

ok.  I'll just shut up then.


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## dieseldog (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Diesel Dog - why on earth should the thread be deleted? I for one have found this to be a really interesting discussion  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Because I wrote last week that I didn't like Ben Maher and Admin edited my post.  I never even questioned his preferences.

Someone in the the comp riders was also writing stuff about his abilities between the sheets and that got deleted.


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## The Voice (30 June 2008)

He has a girlfriend who he has been with for a couple of years. She also does modelling. 

Some of the bits look complicated but in fact they are less severe and are more horse friendly then say just a snaflle where you would be yanking them in the mouth to get the control and cause more damage. The horses are produced to the standard with no training missed but there is such a fine line between winning and losing and as someone said the courses are more technical so you have got to have the control which these type of combination bits give without upsetting the horse.


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## Angua2 (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Ben is using a bit that most have not seen the like of and because of its complexity, most are interested as to what its effect is compared to more conventional bits and the process of bit evolution specifically related to showjumping.



[/ QUOTE ]

I seem to remember a while ago there was an article in H&amp;H about bens Bit.  It was one of those 1/3 page thingis on "what is that"

as someone has already said it is a hackamore and a snaffle ( i think) that had to be specially made for the horse.


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## JM07 (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


Some of the bits look complicated but in fact they are less severe and are more horse friendly then say just a snaflle where you would be yanking them in the mouth to get the control and cause more damage. The horses are produced to the standard with no training missed but there is such a fine line between winning and losing and as someone said the courses are more technical so you have got to have the control which these type of combination bits give without upsetting the horse. 

[/ QUOTE ]

but those who wear the "it has to be a snaffle" blinkers would never see that POV...


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## carys220 (30 June 2008)

I only wear the 'start it in a snaffle' blinkers


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## MizElz (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I only wear the 'start it in a snaffle' blinkers 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Dya know what? So do I!


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## JM07 (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I only wear the 'start it in a snaffle' blinkers 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

i'm sure most Pro riders feel the same..

with all the will in the world "starting" in a snaffle and staying in one isnt always an option


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## StaceyTanglewood (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Diesel Dog - why on earth should the thread be deleted? I for one have found this to be a really interesting discussion  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Because I wrote last week that I didn't like Ben Maher and Admin edited my post.  I never even questioned his preferences.

Someone in the the comp riders was also writing stuff about his abilities between the sheets and that got deleted. 

[/ QUOTE ]

no me neither hun but at the end of the day i wouldnt be worrying about what bit he was using !


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## Annette4 (30 June 2008)

To add my tuppence worth...I know someone with a big SJer....and she welcomes people who say he should jump in a snaffle but takes no responsibilty for what happens 
	
	
		
		
	


	





TBH he's a professional and his livelyhood depends on being sucessful at that level which requires accuracy and control. Yes I'd love to see him in a snaffle but if it doesn't work for that horse it doesn't. Someone competing in their own time doesn't NEED the results and has the extra time to work on their horses and generally isn't jumping at that kind of a standard. 

Logically 'normal' folk aren't going to start riding their horses in such bits to hack etc and lets face it....proffesional riders know what their doing and have far better hands in general than people who ride in their own time. I'd rather see a horse in a harsh bit with soft hands than have it's mouth sawn at in a snaffle.


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## bexandspooky (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

I seem to remember a while ago there was an article in H&amp;H about bens Bit.  It was one of those 1/3 page thingis on "what is that"



[/ QUOTE ]

Blimey - I didn't think H&amp;H normally covered that sort of material - I thought that kind of stuff was reserved for late night tv?!


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## PaddyMonty (30 June 2008)

I remember the 60s/70s  
	
	
		
		
	


	




Takes off rose tints.  I also remember Ted Edgar having to wrap the reins round his hands, stand in the stirrups and use his full weight to keep even a semblance of control on Uncle Max.
Bet he would opt for some high tec gadgets had they been available then


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## billyslad (30 June 2008)

Ben is definateley not gay !

He has been in a relationship with a model for a number of years

The bit that he uses shows how light his hands must be


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## siennamum (30 June 2008)

I was trained by Lady Mary Rose Williams, and it was fairly revolutionary stuff. I had to take off my running martingale and work on alien concepts like rhythm  
	
	
		
		
	


	




. She had spent years in the states working with a variety of people.
There was a huge sea change to my eyes at the time. Think it was the Los Angeles Olympics where the Americans skipped round on a variety of horses, including a pb QH, which all went really fluently and freely, (&amp; they won the gold I think). It was a breath of fresh air after the power jumping &amp; control we were all used to seeing from the Germans.


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## 0 (30 June 2008)

Off topic: Bugger! We've got the same signature! 
*rushes off to change it*


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## PaddyMonty (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Off topic: Bugger! We've got the same signature! 
*rushes off to change it* 

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah but i dont give a damn.


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## MizElz (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Off topic: Bugger! We've got the same signature! 
*rushes off to change it* 

[/ QUOTE ]

Hehehe thought I had seen it somewhere before!


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## kirstyhen (30 June 2008)

The horse hasnt got alot of metal in its mouth, just a plain snaffle with a hackamore attached.
I ride my horse in a waterford gag for show jumping, I welcome anyone who thinks he should be in a snaffle to try. I can guarantee his mouth would be split and your arm would be three times their original length by the time youd finished.
Not all horses appreciated the way a snaffle works.


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## PaddyMonty (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

I ride my horse in a waterford gag for show jumping, I welcome anyone who thinks he should be in a snaffle to try.  

[/ QUOTE ]

I will take you up on that offer.  No because I think I can but because i like the look of your horse and probably the only way i would get to sit on him


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## MizElz (30 June 2008)

Can I just say that it was never my intention for this thread to turn into a 'all horses should be ridden in a snaffle' rant. I would love anyone to have told my horse Mickey that he should go in a snaffle - and then try to stop him when he did decide to 'go'! He was the strongest horse I have ever ridden - once he decided to go, he went - and a snaffle for him would never have been the right way to go. (For the record, I rode him in a vulcanite pelham). As someone else has said previously, I agree with the principle that all horses should be _started_ in a snaffle, but I am open to the fact that they may, as they mature and develop, be better in another type of bit. 

I'm sure we would all love to have horses that compete in every discipline in a plain little loose ring snaffle - for sure, it would be a darn site cheaper for us all! But that really isnt what this was about.

I think my initial point was that these bits seem to be getting more and more harsh, more and more severe and complicated in their design. I'm not saying 'this horse would go better in a ......', I'm simply asking whether we all think that the types of bit such as that seen on Ben's horse - and others - at Hickstead are necessary, effective and, I suppose, acceptable. Because let's face it, if a group of Pony Clubbers turned up at a rally in that bit and said to their DC, 'its ok, its only a snaffle and a hackamore,' I'm not sure they would be allowed to continue....

I don't doubt for a second that the top riders try their damndest to get their bitting right. Its in their interests, isn't it - they don't do it for show, do they? Because even those who advocate this type of bit cannot possibly argue that it looks pretty....! What I worry about are those riders who are not 'professional' who catch on to these kinds of trends set by the top riders, and use them negatively on their own horses. I have witnessed, first hand, a very good friend of mine experimenting with a whole host of evil-looking bits. His session resulted in his mare discovering that yes, she could slow down between fences - but she also came away with a bleeding mouth and was unable to be ridden for a week afterwards. Again, as has been said before, any bit can be kind when used in the right hands, and the reverse is also scarily true.


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## siennamum (30 June 2008)

I think many people are mistaking complicated for harsh. In fact I think bits now tend to be kinder and more designed with the horses comfort and to enable more subtle use and a variety of actions. In the good old days bits were just plain harsh if you had a puller.


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## MotherOfChickens (30 June 2008)

QR simply cant be bothered to read whole thread. Boomerang-great horse, de nerved 3 times I think, long shanked hackamore and tight running martingale. cant remember what Deister was ridden in but dont think it was a snaffle!  eta lol now the only pics I can find of him he's in a snaffle


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## kirstyhen (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I ride my horse in a waterford gag for show jumping, I welcome anyone who thinks he should be in a snaffle to try.  

[/ QUOTE ]

I will take you up on that offer.  No because I think I can but because i like the look of your horse and probably the only way i would get to sit on him  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

PMSL!! Youd probably do it better than me and show me up!!


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## carys220 (30 June 2008)

I was always told when I was young that a hackamore was kinder than a bit in their mouth - but once I found out how they work I wasn't so sure....I've never used one so I don't have the experience, that's just what my thoughts are.

Did he have roundings on it? I could understand having two reins to use like a double bridle but not sure about pulling on them both at the same time....as I said I've never used one so I many be wrong.


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## kirstyhen (30 June 2008)

I dont think they are getting harsher.
My friend produces show horses, in her tack room she has two huge boxes full of bits. Some of the most evil looking ones are 30+ years old. Her horses are also all schooled to perfection.
Im sure there are few top horses that were not started in a snaffle.
The people that use anything because someone else does, without understanding it first are the problem. To be honest I dont know anyone who does it.
It then goes the other way, to people becoming so bloody minded about using snaffles that they are a danger to themselves and others.


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## Rambo (30 June 2008)

http://www.samanthabond.net/5_female.html?profile=61


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## UncleJr (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
... but I would argue that it takes the same amount of control to ride a 2ft clear round at your local Gymkhana as it would to jump 5ft around a Derby. If control is what we are discussing here.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

WHAT????
Sorry, I disagree


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## kirstyhen (30 June 2008)

I would imagine the effect of the hackamore/snaffle combination would be similar to that of a myler combination. I would of thought it was stronger though.
My friend used to hack her mare in a hackamore, it had to have teeth removed, so she tried to rest the mares mouth whenever possible. It was hilarious watching her trying to stop, we nearly fell off laughing! The mare used to tense her bottom lip, tuck her nose in and canter off!


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## kirstyhen (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.samanthabond.net/5_female.html?profile=61















[/ QUOTE ]

Bl00dy hell! Shes stunning!!


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## siennamum (30 June 2008)

Much as I loved him, I think when Alvin's horses entered the ring their noses near enough touched their chests.....  Diester, I think, was a funny sort who did go in plain bits, but I think he was the exception.


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## JM07 (30 June 2008)

cant remember where it happened, but the "broken bit" incedent PS had with him, D was definitely wearing a pelham...


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## MizElz (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... but I would argue that it takes the same amount of control to ride a 2ft clear round at your local Gymkhana as it would to jump 5ft around a Derby. If control is what we are discussing here.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

WHAT????
Sorry, I disagree 

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about it. I'm talking about riding _properly_, not just about some 8 yr old kid tugging a pony round vs. a seasoned professional jumping at Hickstead. The height of a fence should not matter; if you are going to get your strides right, judge your distances correctly and produce a round that is fluent, stylish and accurate, you need control - at 2ft or at 5ft. Okay, I myself have never jumped round Hickstead, but I have jumped 4ft tracks and can honestly say that I would hope to maintain the same amount of control and fluency then as I would when jumping 2ft.


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## siennamum (30 June 2008)

I remember him in a snaffle &amp; a pelham, horse never looked like it was going anywhere but slithered over the fences &amp; looked completely dead in the mouth.
Paul wasn't anywhere as nice looking as Alvin either... there was a yummy SJer.


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## Rambo (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I remember him in a snaffle &amp; a pelham, horse never looked like it was going anywhere but slithered over the fences &amp; looked completely dead in the mouth.
Paul wasn't anywhere as nice looking as Alvin either... there was a yummy SJer. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't Deister also go in a German Hackamore too though ? Funny horse that one...used to screw and twist over everything...but won loads in the process


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## PapaFrita (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Not directly comparable, no - but I would argue that it takes the same amount of control to ride a 2ft clear round at your local Gymkhana as it would to jump 5ft around a Derby. If control is what we are discussing here.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh good heavens no!! I saw THIS young man jump round 70cms (2'3") last weekend without a SCRAP of control (I couldn't help clapping my hands over my eyes!). 







He made a mistake on the course and was eliminated, but he was clear until then and was leaning on the saddle at every jump 
	
	
		
		
	


	








 He only got round because the horse was a SAINT and jumped on autopilot (regardless of dutch gag)


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## MizElz (30 June 2008)

Yes yes yes.....I think I havent explained my point well enough. Maybe I should have said 'should' instead......what I was trying to get across is the idea that if you want to ride a nice fluent, accurate round, you should have optimum control over your horse, regardless of the height of the fences. Arrrrghhhh, I think my brain is scrambled. I know what I mean, but I havent explained it very well


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## PapaFrita (30 June 2008)

Well, when you're jumping 2ft, or 3ft you have MUCH greater leeway as to what is an acceptable take off point for each fence than at 5ft. Also, at 5ft the distances will be made more tricky precisely to challenge the skill and control of the rider.
So I still diagree, but I get your point


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## carys220 (30 June 2008)

OK. I'll agree that it's horses for courses(or rather bits for horses 
	
	
		
		
	


	




). Ben and his trainers obviously think that's the right combination for that horse and I can imagine a horse being quite strong and flighty round that Derby course. I think the debate we got into was whether people are using the right bits for their horses, most people are but there are those naive people who will put a big bit in their horse's mouth because it looks good. I think I have been quite lucky to always have horses with snaffle mouths(apart from of course my fell who was spoilt with a driving bit, and a section C I used to ride who the same thing happened to!) I'm sure that's going to change when I ride my Haflinger as she's a strong cow already, but she is being started in a snaffle. So I haven't had the same experiences with strong horses and different bits. I will admit that I was shocked by the thing when I saw it on Ben's horse but if he has got quiet hands then I'm sure it's the best thing for the horse


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## Starbucks (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

Well, when you're jumping 2ft, or 3ft you have MUCH greater leeway as to what is an acceptable take off point for each fence than at 5ft. Also, at 5ft the distances will be made more tricky precisely to challenge the skill and control of the rider.
So I still diagree, but I get your point 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Exactly, me and Badger (sometimes) look to be fluent and accurate round a 3'6'' course, but if they were a foot bigger (apart from me not having the skill and him not having the canter 
	
	
		
		
	


	




) then even in our current tackle he would not be sensitive enough to my aids to be accurate enough to jump that height... if that makes sense!!


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## The Voice (30 June 2008)

Also remember that these combinations are not always used week in week out and depends on the class. Hickstead and puissances are unique classes with very big fences.
Alot of these combinations are specially made for horse and are very expensive and unique.


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## Angua2 (30 June 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I seem to remember a while ago there was an article in H&amp;H about bens Bit.  It was one of those 1/3 page thingis on "what is that"



[/ QUOTE ]

Blimey - I didn't think H&amp;H normally covered that sort of material - I thought that kind of stuff was reserved for late night tv?!  
	
	
		
		
	


	













[/ QUOTE ]


LOl....  don't I have such a wonderful turn of phrase.....


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