# Cheltenham Sir Eric...poor horse



## ROMANY 1959 (15 March 2019)

Had to have his shoe put back on at the start, then same leg, snapped while running to a fence . He is entire, I hope they can save him..but it looked so so bad 
Poor horse and his owners


----------



## eggs (15 March 2019)

It did indeed look horrible and he has been pts.  He seemed to land fine and then take a bad stride.  Feel very sorry for all of his connections.


----------



## poiuytrewq (15 March 2019)

There was absolutely no way of saving him. That was a horrible break.


----------



## ROMANY 1959 (15 March 2019)

So sad for all...Said he had a brilliant future..was not to be was it ðŸ˜¢


----------



## bonny (15 March 2019)

His name was Sir Erec, just awful what happened


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (15 March 2019)

I know it can happen to any horse at any time but having spent 5 minutes as the main focus of the tv cameras whilst being reshod as well as being the favourite it really does leave a sour taste. Poor lad he was so calm and happy about everything before hand. 

The only good outcome of this is that he will not have felt a thing. He will have been filled full of drugs straight away, assessed and dealt with within minutes. There is a huge team of vets at Cheltenham and with something like that there is very little discussion to be made sadly.


----------



## DD (15 March 2019)

yet another horse dies racing


----------



## Hormonal Filly (15 March 2019)

Which leg broke? Someone said the hind then the front went.  How sad, he was only 4.


----------



## Merrymoles (15 March 2019)

A great shame.


----------



## Merrymoles (15 March 2019)

Invitation Only who fell in the Gold Cup has gone too - must have tainted the victory a bit for Willie Mullins who trained him too.


----------



## sport horse (15 March 2019)

Downton Dame said:



			yet another horse dies racing
		
Click to expand...

As opposed to the not inconsiderable number that die as a result of starvation or the other extreme, laminitis caused by overfeeding.  At least these horses are looked after with 5* care and are doing what they are bred for and love.


----------



## poiuytrewq (15 March 2019)

Feel bad for the Mullins yard. Shouldâ€™ve been a huge celebration and so well deserved.


----------



## ROMANY 1959 (15 March 2019)

It was offside foreleg, mid cannon bone..he had a shoe put on at the start as he lost a plate. Been told that he had trouble with lameness on that leg a while ago.. possible there was a Weak point there


----------



## Follysmum (15 March 2019)

Very sad!  Im always torn when this happens but as said before there are lots of neglected animals that live an awful life. 
Never easy to hear about any horse sport deaths


----------



## cundlegreen (15 March 2019)

ROMANY 1959 said:



			It was offside foreleg, mid cannon bone..he had a shoe put on at the start as he lost a plate. Been told that he had trouble with lameness on that leg a while ago.. possible there was a Weak point there
		
Click to expand...

He had a stone bruise, and had been scanned and xrayed before travelling over to Cheltenham. They had done everything to get him there in good order then that happened.


----------



## JJS (15 March 2019)

The more I hear of racing, the more I dislike it. I think it's simply unfair to ask so much of our equine partners, no matter how well we treat them, and the number of problems that ex-racehorses end up with in later life makes me more and more averse to a sport that insists on using babies. Flower must be a very similar age to the Thoroughbreds who will be backed this year, and she's so guileless and immature that it really drives home how young they are. Thoroughbreds are quite possibly the most beautiful and brave equines in existence, but the sport itself is one I'll never be able to support. Poor boy. Four is just no age at all  

That said, I'm saddened for his connections nevertheless - I'm sure that there are people who loved him, and who must be feeling absolutely heartbroken this evening. Whether or not we share the same views on horse racing, losing them is still just as terrible and painful.


----------



## Ambers Echo (15 March 2019)

Can anyone explain why a strong, young, fit horse should break a leg like that? Not in a fall or even landing over a fence. I am not having a go at racing - these horses are treated like kings and there are far worse ways to go - but I don;t understand horse breaking legs while just running on the flat. And it seems to happen a lot.


----------



## cundlegreen (15 March 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			Can anyone explain why a strong, young, fit horse should break a leg like that? Not in a fall or even landing over a fence. I am not having a go at racing - these horses are treated like kings and there are far worse ways to go - but I don;t understand horse breaking legs while just running on the flat. And it seems to happen a lot.
		
Click to expand...

I've known them do it in the field. My only thought was, he pulled the shoe off on that leg, so was something slightly wrong with his foot balance or action?


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (15 March 2019)

The bones, joints, tendons, ligaments, muscles etc are all put under extreme pressure. No matter how much conditioning you do to them sometimes things do just break. You are putting half a tonne of animal on what is realistically a very small leg with almost 4 tonnes of pressure in a full galloping stride. Sometimes those limbs just cant take the pressure. Same as when they do a tendon or ligament - it cant cope with the pressure it is being put under and snaps. 

The bones bend and condense ever so slightly when under the full weight of the horse in a gallop stride and if they break then they break out of shape. They can not be pieced back together. Like wheb you have a puzzle piece that you think should go there, it should fit but no matter which way you turn it it just quite simply doesnt fit the slot.


----------



## bonny (15 March 2019)

There must have been something wrong with that leg, easy to say with hindsight though


----------



## The-Bookworm (15 March 2019)

Downton Dame said:



			yet another horse dies racing
		
Click to expand...

As they do everyday doing mundane things like trotting in from the field, slipping and breaking a leg.
That horse was only a two year old.


----------



## JJS (15 March 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			Can anyone explain why a strong, young, fit horse should break a leg like that? Not in a fall or even landing over a fence. I am not having a go at racing - these horses are treated like kings and there are far worse ways to go - but I don;t understand horse breaking legs while just running on the flat. And it seems to happen a lot.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly as EKW said. Sometimes strength is incidentally sacrificed for speed, and although this can be the case with any horse, I think Thoroughbreds seem particularly vulnerable to this type of injury. They simply move so fast and with so much power, and their legs are so incredibly slender, that they can't always withstand the pressure that's being put on them.


----------



## Mule (15 March 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			Can anyone explain why a strong, young, fit horse should break a leg like that? Not in a fall or even landing over a fence. I am not having a go at racing - these horses are treated like kings and there are far worse ways to go - but I don;t understand horse breaking legs while just running on the flat. And it seems to happen a lot.
		
Click to expand...

There's been a lot of research done in to these type of "bad step' injuries. It used to be thought it was just something that happened and there was no predicting it. However more recent research has shown that musculoskeletal breakdowns almost always happen in sites of prior injury. Basically, it's a case of micro fractures going undetected. Time isn't given for these minor injuries to heal and when the limb is repeatedly stressed it can snap.


----------



## cundlegreen (15 March 2019)

mule said:



			There's been a lot of research done in to these type of "bad step' injuries. It used to be thought it was just something that happened and there was no predicting it. However more recent research has shown that musculoskeletal breakdowns almost always happen in sites of prior injury. Basically, it's a case of micro fractures going undetected. Time isn't given for these minor injuries to heal and when the limb is repeatedly stressed it can snap.
		
Click to expand...

see my previous reply re xrays.


----------



## tristar (15 March 2019)

a reason they break on the flat is in-coordination the sheer opposing pulling forces when taking a bad step  at great speed can shatter bone


----------



## Mule (15 March 2019)

cundlegreen said:



			see my previous reply re xrays.
		
Click to expand...

 Unfortunately micro-fractures tend not to be visible on x-rays. At any rate, I have no knowledge about why this individual horse broke down. I only know what the research in this area has found. It has a lot of relevance for endurance and eventing as well as racing.


----------



## ester (15 March 2019)

yeah you aren't going to see that sort of thing on xray.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (15 March 2019)

I expect the xrays and scans will be released for public viewing soon with lots of professional opinions on it all.


----------



## Clodagh (15 March 2019)

If you look at jumps horses from 20 years ago they look like middleweight hunters compared to todays. I do worry that we are sacrificing stregth for speed to a point where it is excessive. 
As EKW has said, he won't have felt a thing, I badly broke my hand out hunting years ago, over a fence, and couldn't pull up straight away. Everything was flapping about but it didn't hurt.


----------



## holeymoley (15 March 2019)

Looked ghastly. Poor soul


----------



## Crazy_cat_lady (15 March 2019)

Any death is sad but it seemed to make it worse as he was stood so beautifully while they sorted his shoe.

Those more experienced with breeding do you think the use of so many flat bred horses is contributing to their legs not standing up as well to the more rigorous tests of jump racing? I know they can break legs on the flat and in the field etc but some of them look so fine compared to your Denman types? Obviously I may be completely wrong but are they potentially put at more risk? They would have been on the go from much earlier as well as flat racers usually start at 2.

Thought Invitation Only might get up the fall in itself didn't look completely awful.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (15 March 2019)

I do think breeding has a lot to do with it. Horses are now being bred for speed and stamina. Not conformation. So long as they stay sound enough to do their job who cares if all 4 legs point in different directions. And if it's good enough it will be bred from - and bred for bloodlines again not conformation. Though someone with a horse of awful conformation will more than likely look for one with much better conformation to try to help fix the problems. But they will still be bred from. 

Sir Erec is one of the best bred horses to ever go jumping. Well best bred FLAT horses to ever go jumping. He is by Camelot - who is by Montjue. His dam is by Galileo, who is in turn by Sadler's Wells so he is pure flat horse royalty. Jumps horses are being bred from flat stock now. Yeats stayed so he is a jumps sire - and is doing well. He doesn't throw consistent stock though. Bucket Heid was by Yeats - he was a massively built 17.2hh carthorse! His mother was by Classic Cliche. We had a 3/4 sister - by Yeats out of a Classic Cliche who was 15.1hh and very dainty but also quite talented. Sadly she was lost to a field accident. Both were very different personalities too. The filly was a proper little madam and a hell of a scrapper! She loved an eyeball to eyeball fight with another horse on the gallops. Where as the gelding just knew he was superior and got on with his job.

You traditional old jumping sires did a bit of jumping or staying flat races - Silver Patriarch won the St Ledger. Alderbrook was one of very,, very few colts to go jumping and he won the Champion Hurdle. Sir Erec would have been aimed for that next year before heading to stud as hopefully one of a new generation of jumping colts. But alas that was not meant to be.


----------



## Mule (15 March 2019)

Wasn't it always the case that they were breed for speed and stamina rather than conformation?


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (15 March 2019)

mule said:



			Wasn't it always the case that they were breed for speed and stamina rather than conformation?
		
Click to expand...

Yes and the basic conformation is tb's is getting worse and worse. You see some of these horses stood up - cannon bones that go on for a country mile, pasterns that are almost as long as their cannons and at stupid angles. And that's before you get to their attrocious feet and back legs! The French have tried bringing back better build and conformation into jumps horses by outcrossing to Selle Francais and it has worked to an extent.


----------



## Mule (15 March 2019)

EKW said:



			Yes and the basic conformation is tb's is getting worse and worse. You see some of these horses stood up - cannon bones that go on for a country mile, pasterns that are almost as long as their cannons and at stupid angles. And that's before you get to their attrocious feet and back legs! The French have tried bringing back better build and conformation into jumps horses by outcrossing to Selle Francais and it has worked to an extent.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't know about the Selle Francais, that's interesting.


----------



## poiuytrewq (16 March 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			Can anyone explain why a strong, young, fit horse should break a leg like that? Not in a fall or even landing over a fence. I am not having a go at racing - these horses are treated like kings and there are far worse ways to go - but I don;t understand horse breaking legs while just running on the flat. And it seems to happen a lot.
		
Click to expand...

It happens we had one go recently on the gallop, again only 4 years old. Absolutely nothing to warn there could be a problem


----------



## Ambers Echo (16 March 2019)

This death has saddened me more than most. The way he stood for the farrier like a seaside donkey in the middle of all that noise and commotion moments from racing when adrenalin must have been sky high. At only 4! What a wonderful, calm, trusting temperament. I remember thinking he would  have an awesome post racing career in almost any sphere with that talent and temperament.  So sad.


----------



## tristar (16 March 2019)

jumping at speed requires a certain type of horse,  strength to withstand the impact of landing at speed for example, a different conformation, the older nh sires were outstanding looking horses with a lot of tb substance

normally you would breed a horse to do a job and put into it the qualities it needs to do that job


----------



## bonny (16 March 2019)

tristar said:



			jumping at speed requires a certain type of horse,  strength to withstand the impact of landing at speed for example, a different conformation, the older nh sires were outstanding looking horses with a lot of tb substance

normally you would breed a horse to do a job and put into it the qualities it needs to do that job
		
Click to expand...

You wouldnâ€™t find a better looking horse than Sir Erec in my opinion.


----------



## cauda equina (16 March 2019)

'Today it was a marvel. Tomorrow, it would be in the bin'
-Alexander Solzhenitsyn


----------



## Clodagh (16 March 2019)

I can't remember her name but did you see the ugly little scrap of a thing that won the mare's novices hurdle? It didn't look fit to run in a donkey derby, and if she was 14.2 I would be impressed. No doubt she will go on to have plenty of foals.


----------



## bonny (16 March 2019)

Clodagh said:



			I can't remember her name but did you see the ugly little scrap of a thing that won the mare's novices hurdle? It didn't look fit to run in a donkey derby, and if she was 14.2 I would be impressed. No doubt she will go on to have plenty of foals.
		
Click to expand...

Amazing the Bloodstock experts on here ! I canâ€™t believe you would describe any of the Cheltenham winners like this, do you really believe she could be as you describe and go and win ?


----------



## Cortez (16 March 2019)

bonny said:



			Amazing the Bloodstock experts on here ! I canâ€™t believe you would describe any of the Cheltenham winners like this, do you really believe she could be as you describe and go and win ?
		
Click to expand...

Of course she could; weirdly formed horses win things all the time, just as there are plenty of perfect specimens with impeccable breeding that couldn't move out of their own way.


----------



## bonny (16 March 2019)

Cortez said:



			Of course she could; weirdly formed horses win things all the time, just as there are plenty of perfect specimens with impeccable breeding that couldn't move out of their own way.
		
Click to expand...

You believe people with huge bank accounts and a lot of knowledge go to the sales and buy weirdly formed tiny horses, send them to a top trainer at huge cost because they canâ€™t see what you can ?


----------



## Clodagh (16 March 2019)

bonny said:



			You believe people with huge bank accounts and a lot of knowledge go to the sales and buy weirdly formed tiny horses, send them to a top trainer at huge cost because they canâ€™t see what you can ?
		
Click to expand...

I imagine she is impeccably bred.


----------



## Cortez (16 March 2019)

bonny said:



			You believe people with huge bank accounts and a lot of knowledge go to the sales and buy weirdly formed tiny horses, send them to a top trainer at huge cost because they canâ€™t see what you can ?
		
Click to expand...

No, I believe know (actual facts back this up) that there are plenty of small horses, and horses with less than perfect conformation, and with ordinary breeding, that win races. And there are even more horses with fantastic breeding and/or wonderful conformation that can't run their way out of a paper bag.


----------



## Clodagh (16 March 2019)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageser...11e9-bfd2-5b366418ffd1.jpg?crop=4019,2679,0,0

Possibly an unfairly unflattering photograph, and doesn't show her legs but really?


----------



## bonny (16 March 2019)

If it was just about breeding it would easy !


----------



## Clodagh (16 March 2019)

bonny said:



			Amazing the Bloodstock experts on here ! I canâ€™t believe you would describe any of the Cheltenham winners like this, do you really believe she could be as you describe and go and win ?
		
Click to expand...

I am not sure where I said I was a bloodstock expert, I just thought the mare was not a prime example of breeding stock.


----------



## WandaMare (16 March 2019)

Clodagh said:



			I can't remember her name but did you see the ugly little scrap of a thing that won the mare's novices hurdle? It didn't look fit to run in a donkey derby, and if she was 14.2 I would be impressed. No doubt she will go on to have plenty of foals.
		
Click to expand...

I don't like to hear any horse being referred to 'the ugly little scrap of a thing'. Surely the horses who push themselves to the limit and show so much courage at these type of events deserve more respect than this, even if their appearance doesn't tick all the right boxes?


----------



## tristar (16 March 2019)

i thought the solzhenitsyn quote was about a human having a cancer op.?

``handsome is as handsome does``good looking does not mean he had bred into him the qualities to be a n h horse, functionality is the where the true beauty of the nh horse lies, the proportions, tenacity to survive coupled with speed  and endurance and the ability to jump at speed

sir erec had a shoe replaced moments before, lots of maybe`s here?  was the foot injured in some way by the loss original shoe? did the new shoe come off and move across the foot and prick him?  did the opposite foot tread on the new shoe?, is  it a good idea to immediately put a horse in top race after replacing a shoe and not trotting the horse up on hard ground to verify its 100 per cent?


----------



## bonny (16 March 2019)

tristar said:



			i thought the solzhenitsyn quote was about a human having a cancer op.?

``handsome is as handsome does``good looking does not mean he had bred into him the qualities to be a n h horse, functionality is the where the true beauty of the nh horse lies, the proportions, tenacity to survive coupled with speed  and endurance and the ability to jump at speed

sir erec had a shoe replaced moments before, lots of maybe`s here?  was the foot injured in some way by the loss original shoe? did the new shoe come off and move across the foot and prick him?  did the opposite foot tread on the new shoe?, is  it a good idea to immediately put a horse in top race after replacing a shoe and not trotting the horse up on hard ground to verify its 100 per cent?
		
Click to expand...

He certainly had what it takes to be a top hurdler but there is a suggestion now that there was something wrong in that leg before the race. He had been lame, the yard were concerned but it all pointed to a stone bruise and he was treated for that. Itâ€™s pointless having hindsight now and horrible what happened but it does look like that could be what went wrong although we will never know for sure.


----------



## tristar (16 March 2019)

talking about breeding lots of foals i recently read a few books about the lives of famous horses, one mare who won lots and bred two of the best stallions around, bred 11 foals and died at 20 just  a few after delivering her 11th foal, the owner was devastated.

it would have been nice to see that mare retired for her remaining days earlier, can a thing as fragile as tb be expected to carry and deliver so many foals? 

so many questions in the horse world,  what about gratitude for what she had already achieved, the pleasure of owning such a wonderful mare for its own sake.


----------



## Mule (16 March 2019)

bonny said:



			He certainly had what it takes to be a top hurdler but there is a suggestion now that there was something wrong in that leg before the race. He had been lame, the yard were concerned but it all pointed to a stone bruise and he was treated for that. Itâ€™s pointless having hindsight now and horrible what happened but it does look like that could be what went wrong although we will never know for sure.
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say it's pointless if we can learn from it. (By we, I mean all horse people/ vets etc)


----------



## DD (16 March 2019)

have just read on facebook that another horse Invitation Only has died racing at Cheltenham. Time to BAN RACING.


----------



## JanetGeorge (16 March 2019)

Downton Dame said:



			have just read on facebook that another horse Invitation Only has died racing at Cheltenham. Time to BAN RACING.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah - and how many horses would THAT kill??  Or - even worse - see them in poor homes - or 'retired' to a field to be ignored and suffer mud fever and much worse.  And you would't be fussed abot the jobs (and homes0 that would be lost.  Horses die every day of the week - usually far more slowly and with far more suffering than a racehorse at the track.  Maybe we should have NO horses at all - ruddy things get cas and break a leg, or die of colic after costing the owner a LOT of money.


----------



## Snowfilly (16 March 2019)

While I feel sad for the horses who died at Cheltenham over the meeting, I feel considerably worse for the poor starving foal who was found in a ditch near me last week. He was cold and dead, looked like he'd never had a good drink from his dam and died horribly.

No-one wants to see a horse die and we should look into causes and ways of making racing safer. But I wish we could get the same outrage going about the nameless scrub horses who never make it into the papers, and who spend their whole life as welfare cases instead of just the end.


----------



## cundlegreen (16 March 2019)

bonny said:



			You believe people with huge bank accounts and a lot of knowledge go to the sales and buy weirdly formed tiny horses, send them to a top trainer at huge cost because they canâ€™t see what you can ?
		
Click to expand...

saw a filly go through the select NH sale at Cheltenham two days ago. She was described as having one tendon larger than the other. She was 4 years old and had won her PTP. She made 150,000. I wouldn't have wanted to take a risk on her.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 March 2019)

In racing the conformation isn't first priority. Speed is. So long as a horse can win a race it's conformation doesn't matter. Sadler's Wells was pigeon toed - would you ever suggest not breeding from him? They aren't show horses, they aren't there to look pretty, they are there to gallop and to jump. Yes conformation helps keep a horse sound but it doesn't make it a good horse. Some of the weirdest put together horses have been some of the soundest! Size isn't everything either. Katchit and Binocular are tiny yet they both won Champion Hurdles, Tiger Roll isn't the biggest but he has won over fence and the biggest fences of them all - Aintree! 

Head, heart and determination is what is needed to win races. Not looks.


----------



## Tiddlypom (16 March 2019)

It helps, though, if they have straight legs which don't shatter in use?

Did Sadler's Wells pass on his pigeon toes to his descendants?


----------



## Mule (16 March 2019)

EKW said:



			In racing the conformation isn't first priority. Speed is. So long as a horse can win a race it's conformation doesn't matter. Sadler's Wells was pigeon toed - would you ever suggest not breeding from him? They aren't show horses, they aren't there to look pretty, they are there to gallop and to jump. Yes conformation helps keep a horse sound but it doesn't make it a good horse. Some of the weirdest put together horses have been some of the soundest! Size isn't everything either. Katchit and Binocular are tiny yet they both won Champion Hurdles, Tiger Roll isn't the biggest but he has won over fence and the biggest fences of them all - Aintree!

Head, heart and determination is what is needed to win races. Not looks.
		
Click to expand...

How likely do you think it is that other countries will do what the French have done with introducing the Salle Francais blood?


----------



## bonny (16 March 2019)

mule said:



			How likely do you think it is that other countries will do what the French have done with introducing the Salle Francais blood?
		
Click to expand...

French bred horses are all the rage just now


----------



## Amymay (16 March 2019)

Downton Dame said:



			have just read on facebook that another horse Invitation Only has died racing at Cheltenham. Time to BAN RACING.
		
Click to expand...

Ever heard of AHT??


----------



## Mule (16 March 2019)

bonny said:



			French bred horses are all the rage just now
		
Click to expand...

It's a bit mad when you think how the TB had always been used to improve other breeds, that now, arguably, the TB is in need of improving. Strong, healthy tb's are in everyone's interest, we'd have no sport horses without them.


----------



## Cortez (16 March 2019)

mule said:



			How likely do you think it is that other countries will do what the French have done with introducing the Salle Francais blood?
		
Click to expand...

Selle Francais blood has always been used in France in small doses - in fact there are races specifically for these crosses, can't remember what they're called now.


----------



## tristar (16 March 2019)

nothing wrong with the race, just the people who chose which   mare and stallion are put  together and their reasons


----------



## bonny (16 March 2019)

tristar said:



			nothing wrong with the race, just the people who chose which   mare and stallion are put  together and their reasons
		
Click to expand...

What do you mean ?


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 March 2019)

Cortez said:



			Selle Francaise blood has always been used in France in small doses - in fact there are races specifically for these crosses, can't remember what they're called now.
		
Click to expand...

AQPS races - Autre Que Pur Sang - Other Than Pure Bred.

I think a few countries have added in bits and pieces of other blood to stengthen the horses again. Try to put a bit more robustness into them. And then you had the ones over here who bred for colour ... That was a disaster!

The problem when you breed for one thing and one thing only is you sacrifice other important aspects and it's not until it's too late to be undone so you realise where you went wrong.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (16 March 2019)

I had always thought that Selle Francais were mainly Anglo Arab blood, so I can definitely understand how it would work putting those lines back into the TB breed considering how the breed was created in the first place. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 March 2019)

Faracat said:



			I had always thought that Selle Francais were mainly Anglo Arab blood, so I can definitely understand how it would work putting those lines back into the TB breed considering how the breed was created in the first place.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Yup they are are the closest thing to a tb sports horse but with more substance and depth which is why they are used. Your not diluting the blood too much as it is mostly tb anyway.


----------



## AdorableAlice (16 March 2019)

Downton Dame said:



			have just read on facebook that another horse Invitation Only has died racing at Cheltenham. Time to BAN RACING.
		
Click to expand...

Why is it time to ban racing ? quantify your statement, surely you need to consider a much bigger picture.  For instance  have a read of this -

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...sted-wound-put-warning-upsetting-image-681612

and then decide which TB suffered the most, Sire Erec or the poor emaciated creature in the article.  There is far far more suffering going on, much of it going on unnoticed, in the equine world than you will ever see on the racecourse.

Energy needs to by put into protecting horses and ponies that are suffering through neglect and poor practice.  The horses at Cheltenham and any other racecourse have not suffered or been neglected/treated with cruelty.  The veterinary care on course is immense and any accident or incident is dealt with in seconds.  We all love horses, otherwise we would not be reading this thread, and I was as upset as anyone else to see 3 horses die at Cheltenham but you have to have to be realistic.  Instead of stating racing must be banned, how about campaigning to stop the endless breeding of scrub coloured cobs that roam housing estates and are chucked in ditches to die.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 March 2019)

To put things in perspective - 201 horses died on the racecourse last year. 204 were removed in one day by authorities from a farm in Surrey.

I am pretty sure I would much rather be one of those 201 racehorses being fed, groomed, exercised and treated like royalty everyday and be gone in an instant than spend months upon months starving, being neglected.


----------



## Ambers Echo (16 March 2019)

I totally agree there are far worse lives for a horse to live but I do have some mixed feelings about the number of horse deaths in racing - about 3 per 1000 starts. How many starts does the average horse have? What is the statistic over a life time of dying on a track? Are the horses just pushed too young, do they get micro-fractures which then shatter from too much work too soon? I genuinely don't know. I just think race horses are so young to be doing what they do! There just seems to be a total disconnect between what we think is ok for the leisure rider in terms of work load for youngsters and what seems ok for pros? Dolly is rising 5 and I think of her as a baby. 80cm is the highest class we have jumped her - and even then not often. I did enter her into a 90 as she has so much scope but then we withdrew her and have decided to stick to 80 this year. My old YO used to work on a pro SJ yard. She said the horses directed at the 4 and 5 year old classes were never the best horses - they were always the ones destined to be sold and those classes were a shop window. The pros took things much more slowly with the better horses as they wanted to compete them themselves in the longer term. If horses were not allowed to race so young (with even stricter age limits on jump racing) would that help?


----------



## Meowy Catkin (16 March 2019)

I have been told that an Australian study showed that racing at two reduced the likelihood of that horse breaking down. However when I asked, no-one could give me the link to the actual study.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 March 2019)

Faracat said:



			I have been told that an Australian study showed that racing at two reduced the likelihood of that horse breaking down. However when I asked, no-one could give me the link to the actual study.
		
Click to expand...

I can see how this theory works. The younger you condition the bones and tendons to work the stronger they become. A 4yo that has been in since it was 2yo will be physically stronger all round than a 4yo store horse that has lived in a field and then asked to the same work. There is a larger percentage of horses breaking legs running in bumpers/hurdles/ptps for the first time ever as a 5 or 6yo from being a store than for one that has been in since it was younger. They also reckon horses that mildly weave have stronger bones and soft tissue because it is conditioned to work. BUT this also then brings in other problems later in life. A horse that has had a quiet life as a normal horse might get arthritis at 22-24yo whereas a horse that has raced as a youngster will probably show signs at 12-15yo.


----------



## Ambers Echo (16 March 2019)

That is interesting. Why do we do it differently with leisure horses then. If backing and riding a 2 year old is actually beneficial?


----------



## Lammy (16 March 2019)

I am no fluffy bunny by any means but just because there are worse cruelties elsewhere doesnâ€™t make the cruelties in racing any less so. They might not be as dire as dead foals being left by the roadside but they are still there.

Working horses as yearlings and racing at barely 2 is completely unnecessary and can only be fuelled by greed. If you saw a coloured yearling in harness then there would be outrage and pity for the poor thing but a thoroughbred on the gallops, thatâ€™s ok because it gets treated nicely (although often completely unnaturally). Iâ€™m sure the horses donâ€™t care if they get fed 5 feeds a day and have nice rugs and a cosy stable, I think we can all agree a field with friends is preferable for a 1/2/3/4 year old. 

I donâ€™t think racing needs to be banned but the system needs a complete overhaul for the welfare of the horses which is not going to happen as itâ€™ll cost the industry far too much money. Money wins over welfare every time and I think thatâ€™s sad.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 March 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			That is interesting. Why do we do it differently with leisure horses then. If backing and riding a 2 year old is actually beneficial?
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say backing them young is beneficial but walking out, a little bit of long lining etc certainly won't do them any harm. I personally hate the fact that horses are broken as yearlings for 2yo racing. You are never going to get rid of 2yo racing. A 2yo can't run before either 1st March or 1st April (I can't remember which) but I would much prefer to see them not able to run before 1st July so they can be broken as a 2yo and trained on, a few extra months of being a baby would make all the difference to them.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (16 March 2019)

Yes the theory isn't one that I can dismiss out of hand, but I am always sceptical when the actual study can't be linked to. 




			This data is definitive. It shows that horses that began racing as 2-year-olds are much more successful, have much longer careers, and, by extrapolation, show less predisposition to injury than horses that did not begin racing until their 3-year-old year. It is absolute on all the data sets that the training and racing of 2-year-old Thoroughbreds has no ill effect on the horses' race-career longevity or quality. In fact, the data would indicate that the ability to make at least one start as a 2-year-old has a very strong positive affect on the longevity and success of a racehorse. This strong positive effect on the quality and quantity of performance would make it impossible to argue that these horses that race as 2-year-olds are compromised.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp?section=RT&year=2008&area=11




			misapplication of good research
		
Click to expand...

http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf See the bottom of page two.

OK, so who do I believe? Dr Bennett or Dr Bramlage? Without the data I have no idea who has interpreted the results 'correctly'.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 March 2019)

The thing with those bits of research is the racing one ONLY focuses on the horses racing career. It doesn't take into account life after racing.


----------



## Cortez (16 March 2019)

As someone who has routinely broken horses as 3 year olds, and would sometimes have done a little light lunging with tack from late in their 2 year old year, I have never had a horse show any disadvantage from that. I do think that a programme of light work from 3 is more beneficial than leaving them to be 4, 5, 6 before they start any form of work, just as I think that young humans benefit from sport and a bit of work before they are fully mature at 23 - 24 years old. This does not mean taking 3 year olds out and hammering them about the place, obviously, which means that racing 2 & 3 year olds -  or more accurately the training work that they must do to be fit to race at that age - is very often detrimental to their immediate and long term soundness.


----------



## ozpoz (16 March 2019)

I wonder if life before racing has changed a lot. Youngstock are not left turned out to grow for long enough and constant movement builds bone strength. Not just racehorses, I think its a general trend.


----------



## ycbm (16 March 2019)

EKW said:



			Yes and the basic conformation is tb's is getting worse and worse. You see some of these horses stood up - cannon bones that go on for a country mile, pasterns that are almost as long as their cannons and at stupid angles. And that's before you get to their attrocious feet and back legs! The French have tried bringing back better build and conformation into jumps horses by outcrossing to Selle Francais and it has worked to an extent.
		
Click to expand...


I'll never forget seeing Party Politics in a parade of Grand National winners. He had the most appallingly straight back legs I had ever seen!


----------



## Amymay (16 March 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			That is interesting. Why do we do it differently with leisure horses then. If backing and riding a 2 year old is actually beneficial?
		
Click to expand...

Many people do back at 2, though. Then re-back at 3 and start to lightly ride away.


----------



## Ambers Echo (16 March 2019)

Ok so Bramlage says:

To examine these data The Jockey Club Information Systems extracted one-year windows at five-year intervals, using the years 1975 through 2000 as data sets. Horses were divided into the categories "raced as two-year-olds" and "raced, but not as two-year-olds."

The first category of data examined was average starts per starter lifetime. The data shows that horses that raced as 2-year-olds raced many more times in their lifetime in each of the years examined when compared to horses that did not race until after their 2-year-old season. Some of these starts were made in the 2-year-old year for the horses that raced at 2, but the difference was more marked than the 2-year-old year alone would account for.

Average lifetime earnings per starter for horses that raced as 2-year-olds are almost twice the amount earned by horses that did not race as 2-year-olds.

Career average earnings per start for horses that raced as 2-year-olds exceeded average earnings per start for horses that did not race as 2-year-olds in every one of the years from 1975 to 2000 examined.

Lastly, the percent stakes winners in horses that raced as 2-year-olds is nearly three times higher than in horses that did not race until their 3-year-old year or later.

This data is definitive. It shows that horses that began racing as 2-year-olds are much more successful, have much longer careers, and, by extrapolation, show less predisposition to injury than horses that did not begin racing until their 3-year-old year. It is absolute on all the data sets that the training and racing of 2-year-old Thoroughbreds has no ill effect on the horses' race-career longevity or quality. In fact, the data would indicate that the ability to make at least one start as a 2-year-old has a very strong positive affect on the longevity and success of a racehorse. This strong positive effect on the quality and quantity of performance would make it impossible to argue that these horses that race as 2-year-olds are compromised."

I would say that her conclusions don't  take confounding variables into account: Horses who started racing at 2 years olds raced MORE OFTEN than those who started later and earn MORE. But maybe those who race 2 year olds are also more willing to race them more often than those who wait. And if you race more you are going to earn more. 

The study does not look at injury rates just number of starts and earnings. So her conclusions are somewhat overstated I think.

On the other hand Bennet's paper looks very sciencey but it is largely opinion rather than evidence based. And the stuff that is factual (what grows when) is also not directly related to the question of age vs injury. Sure the skeleton is not mature at 2 but that does not mean it is more prone to injury. 

So I don't know basically! Both authors seem fairly biased in how they interpret data.


----------



## ycbm (16 March 2019)

amymay said:



			Many people do back at 2, though. Then re-back at 3 and start to lightly ride away.
		
Click to expand...


I don't think that true in this country. Not 'many', maybe a few.. Three is the accepted age for backing if you intend to turn away and reback.


----------



## ycbm (16 March 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			Ok so Bramlage says:

To examine these data The Jockey Club Information Systems extracted one-year windows at five-year intervals, using the years 1975 through 2000 as data sets. Horses were divided into the categories "raced as two-year-olds" and "raced, but not as two-year-olds."

The first category of data examined was average starts per starter lifetime. The data shows that horses that raced as 2-year-olds raced many more times in their lifetime in each of the years examined when compared to horses that did not race until after their 2-year-old season. Some of these starts were made in the 2-year-old year for the horses that raced at 2, but the difference was more marked than the 2-year-old year alone would account for.

Average lifetime earnings per starter for horses that raced as 2-year-olds are almost twice the amount earned by horses that did not race as 2-year-olds.

Career average earnings per start for horses that raced as 2-year-olds exceeded average earnings per start for horses that did not race as 2-year-olds in every one of the years from 1975 to 2000 examined.

Lastly, the percent stakes winners in horses that raced as 2-year-olds is nearly three times higher than in horses that did not race until their 3-year-old year or later.

This data is definitive. It shows that horses that began racing as 2-year-olds are much more successful, have much longer careers, and, by extrapolation, show less predisposition to injury than horses that did not begin racing until their 3-year-old year. It is absolute on all the data sets that the training and racing of 2-year-old Thoroughbreds has no ill effect on the horses' race-career longevity or quality. In fact, the data would indicate that the ability to make at least one start as a 2-year-old has a very strong positive affect on the longevity and success of a racehorse. This strong positive effect on the quality and quantity of performance would make it impossible to argue that these horses that race as 2-year-olds are compromised."

I would say that her conclusions don't  take confounding variables into account: Horses who started racing at 2 years olds raced MORE OFTEN than those who started later and earn MORE. But maybe those who race 2 year olds are also more willing to race them more often than those who wait. And if you race more you are going to earn more.

The study does not look at injury rates just number of starts and earnings. So her conclusions are somewhat overstated I think.

On the other hand Bennet's paper looks very sciencey but it is largely opinion rather than evidence based. And the stuff that is factual (what grows when) is also not directly related to the question of age vs injury. Sure the skeleton is not mature at 2 but that does not mean it is more prone to injury.

So I don't know basically! Both authors seem fairly biased in how they interpret data.
		
Click to expand...


This seems to include some very flawed reasoning. Many horses that didn't race at two will have been held back because they are weak or slow, in the hope that they will grow into themselves and some sort of decent level of performance. So of course the ones which race at two will be better overall, surely?


----------



## Lammy (16 March 2019)

Also has anybody done the research to see where those 2 year old runners are as 12+ year olds? Are they more or less predisposed to injury/arthritis than their later counterparts? Pretty sure the answer is no as theyâ€™ll be out of racing and no longer of any interest to the governing body. 

But I could bet those that were stronger at 2 are no longer the strongest ones in the bunch come 12 years old. No problem with light work at 2/3 - long lining, leading out in hand Iâ€™ve done it with my own but as Cortez said, racehorses do not fall into that catergory.


----------



## druid (16 March 2019)

I was watching Sir Erec's race with a well known Ortho surgeon - as soon as the horse went down he said it was going to be fatal, that sort of injury just isn't repairable.

Also, Joesph's sister is a vet at one of the biggest equine hospitals in Ireland who specialize in race work- if anyone thinks the horse wasn't thoroughly checked out before he ran they'd be mistaken!


----------



## bonny (16 March 2019)

druid said:



			I was watching Sir Erec's race with a well known Ortho surgeon - as soon as the horse went down he said it was going to be fatal, that sort of injury just isn't repairable.

Also, Joesph's sister is a vet at one of the biggest equine hospitals in Ireland who specialize in race work- if anyone thinks the horse wasn't thoroughly checked out before he ran they'd be mistaken!
		
Click to expand...

It was obvious to anyone that he wasnâ€™t going to survive a break like that and I donâ€™t believe anyone thinks he wasnâ€™t thoroughly checked out before he ran. Itâ€™s easy to be wise after the event .....


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 March 2019)

druid said:



			I was watching Sir Erec's race with a well known Ortho surgeon - as soon as the horse went down he said it was going to be fatal, that sort of injury just isn't repairable.

Also, Joesph's sister is a vet at one of the biggest equine hospitals in Ireland who specialize in race work- if anyone thinks the horse wasn't thoroughly checked out before he ran they'd be mistaken!
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but I LOVE your profile pic lol! Got to love the old boy!


----------



## druid (16 March 2019)

EKW said:



			Sorry but I LOVE your profile pic lol! Got to love the old boy!
		
Click to expand...

Gone but not forgotten - he always had a great personality!


----------



## JanetGeorge (16 March 2019)

EKW said:



			The thing with those bits of research is the racing one ONLY focuses on the horses racing career. It doesn't take into account life after racing.
		
Click to expand...

~

Hell, it doesn't even take into account the 2yos who start in training and don't race as 2yos or even older.)  I worked for the top trainer of 2yos in Australia in his day (Angus Armanasco).  Something like 40-50% of the babies who came in didn't race - because they became shin sore, or suffered growth pains (or were useless, lol.).  Some came back as 3 yos - but not all of them.  And they were never ridden by riders with any weight - absolute max of 81/2 stone, and they didn't work HARD each day.  In the first part of the season, races were over 800m and 2yos never did more than 1200m.  They were swum a lot - sometimes on the same days as ridden - but other days instead of being ridden.

ow I breed Irish Draughts.  In the early days, I backed well grown 3yos - and a LOT went slightly lame as 4yos.  6 months in the field and they were almost always fine.  So now leave them to 4 or even older if they're still bum high.  It's embarrassing when you sell a 4yo who is 16.2 and he grows to 18.2, lol.


----------



## minesadouble (16 March 2019)

Lammy said:



			Also has anybody done the research to see where those 2 year old runners are as 12+ year olds? Are they more or less predisposed to injury/arthritis than their later counterparts? Pretty sure the answer is no as theyâ€™ll be out of racing and no longer of any interest to the governing body.

But I could bet those that were stronger at 2 are no longer the strongest ones in the bunch come 12 years old. No problem with light work at 2/3 - long lining, leading out in hand Iâ€™ve done it with my own but as Cortez said, racehorses do not fall into that catergory.
		
Click to expand...

Well until late last year we had 3 TBs all raced as 2yo. One was PTS last year due to injury but had always been sound. 
The two we still have are sound at 15 and 20 years respectively. 
Ovbviously those we have are a miniscule percentage of those raced at 2 years but 
either we've been exceptionally lucky or it doesn't have a massive negative impact on their long term soundness.


----------



## cundlegreen (16 March 2019)

EKW said:



			I can see how this theory works. The younger you condition the bones and tendons to work the stronger they become. A 4yo that has been in since it was 2yo will be physically stronger all round than a 4yo store horse that has lived in a field and then asked to the same work. There is a larger percentage of horses breaking legs running in bumpers/hurdles/ptps for the first time ever as a 5 or 6yo from being a store than for one that has been in since it was younger. They also reckon horses that mildly weave have stronger bones and soft tissue because it is conditioned to work. BUT this also then brings in other problems later in life. A horse that has had a quiet life as a normal horse might get arthritis at 22-24yo whereas a horse that has raced as a youngster will probably show signs at 12-15yo.
		
Click to expand...

Red Rum springs to mind...


----------



## Lammy (16 March 2019)

minesadouble said:



			Well until late last year we had 3 TBs all raced as 2yo. One was PTS last year due to injury but had always been sound. 
The two we still have are sound at 15 and 20 years respectively. 
Ovbviously those we have are a miniscule percentage of those raced at 2 years but 
either we've been exceptionally lucky or it doesn't have a massive negative impact on their long term soundness.
		
Click to expand...

4 of my friends have had 7 ex racers between them, 2 have been pts and if I recall correctly they were both flat raced at 2 yo. 1 is still hacking at 16 but he was NH. 1 is retired at 10 having been unsound for the majority of his life after racing he was flat raced at 2 then put over fences at 3. 1 is looking at pts though he was NH but has recently had a terrible fall on the yard but had been sound prior. 1 is in and out of work but not sure if flat or nh and the last is retired at 25 but he came out of racing as a companion due to tendon injury and hadnâ€™t been ridden since he retired at 7. 

I think you genuinely have to be quite lucky with ex racers, I know of several others who are out of action but couldnâ€™t say what their history is.


----------



## ycbm (16 March 2019)

I think there a problem comparing death and early retirement with TBs. They are, comparatively, fragile horses whether they have raced or not. Bred for speed without concern for longevity.

I have an eight year old horse who was a store, then trained for hurdling  but never ran. In spite of his light workload so far, I don't expect him to reach the age of a good IDx still in work. just because of how he is bred.

They are also bred to run in straight lines and shallow bends into the forehand, and I believe that training them to do dressage, moving the weight back over the hocks and constant circling will  also shorten their working life compared to hacking and hunting after racing.

..


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 March 2019)

Of my own exracers Kyle slipped the tendon off of his hock. He was rarely ridden again because he simply hated it. Racing had soured him to work. He ran on the flat before his actual 2nd birthday. He finished his career over hurdles and fences at the age of 7. I had him for 8 years without a single vets bill until i needed to pts due to a field accident - he tripped, stood on himself and his foot went down the pastern, through the extensor tendon and into the coffin joint. He didnt half do a job of it! He ran 73 times in total over 5 years.

Jeff is a French part Selle Francais (6 generations back on his dams side. The rest is tb) he ran a couple of times on the flat as a 3yo because he was so stupidly big and gangly. He had no conformation induced injuries during his racing career just accidental ones - he fell and almost took his heart out of his chest with his foot one day, another a back foot clouted a front fetlock on the gallop stride away from a fence and went into the joint. He retired sound at 11yo and then came to me as a show horse. He is now 22yo and still sound with no issues at all. He ran 41 times in total over 8 years and he has very good conformation.

Gray on the other hand! Gray ran in America on the flat. He had numerous problems with his feet and his tendons all throughout training. His career started as a just turned 3yo and lasted for 5 years. But he spent 2.5 of those years injured. He only ran 21 times in total. I do believe his injuries are down to his conformation - he has pasterns that are slightly too long though his cannons are a nice length but he is very upright in front from the wither to frog. But he has been the soundest horse on the planet for me once he got over his tendon injury. He is 16yo now and not a bother on him.

Every horse is different and every body has different ways of doing things.


----------



## Orangehorse (16 March 2019)

On TV I was watching some of the winners come in and they didn't have perfect conformation, far from it.  Some had terrible feet, one had a very twisted foot (my vet wouldn't have passed it for a long hunting life!)  But in racing it doesn't really matter, so long as they can perform.  I know several horses, not thoroughbred, that were broken as 2 year olds and had a busy and long life, into their 20s.


----------



## Ambers Echo (16 March 2019)

ycbm said:



			This seems to include some very flawed reasoning. Many horses that didn't race at two will have been held back because they are weak or slow, in the hope that they will grow into themselves and some sort of decent level of performance. So of course the ones which race at two will be better overall, surely?
		
Click to expand...

't
Yes exactly. You don need to know much about study design to see that those 2 groups are not matched so differences between them can be for any number of reasons. A bit like all those alcohol industry studies showing that t-totallers die younger than moderate drinkers - without looking at why people might be t-total in the first place. Like underlying illness for example!


----------



## bonny (16 March 2019)

Orangehorse said:



			On TV I was watching some of the winners come in and they didn't have perfect conformation, far from it.  Some had terrible feet, one had a very twisted foot (my vet wouldn't have passed it for a long hunting life!)  But in racing it doesn't really matter, so long as they can perform.  I know several horses, not thoroughbred, that were broken as 2 year olds and had a busy and long life, into their 20s.
		
Click to expand...

Most of them will have gone through the sales and bought for 10â€™s or sometimes 100,s of thousand pounds, do you really believe the buyers fail to notice problems or that the vets there pass them anyway ?


----------



## JJS (16 March 2019)

AdorableAlice said:



			Why is it time to ban racing ? quantify your statement, surely you need to consider a much bigger picture.  For instance  have a read of this -

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...sted-wound-put-warning-upsetting-image-681612

and then decide which TB suffered the most, Sire Erec or the poor emaciated creature in the article.  There is far far more suffering going on, much of it going on unnoticed, in the equine world than you will ever see on the racecourse.

Energy needs to by put into protecting horses and ponies that are suffering through neglect and poor practice.  The horses at Cheltenham and any other racecourse have not suffered or been neglected/treated with cruelty.  The veterinary care on course is immense and any accident or incident is dealt with in seconds.  We all love horses, otherwise we would not be reading this thread, and I was as upset as anyone else to see 3 horses die at Cheltenham but you have to have to be realistic.  Instead of stating racing must be banned, how about campaigning to stop the endless breeding of scrub coloured cobs that roam housing estates and are chucked in ditches to die.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I absolutely agree that racing is the lesser evil, I'm not sure why people can't be outraged by both. Believing that racing needs to be banned and believing that something needs to be done about the breeding of coloured cobs are not mutually exclusive issues, so far as I can tell. In fact, the number of ex-racers who come out of racing, end up in inexperienced hands, and are passed from pillar to post surely compounds the welfare crisis overall?


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 March 2019)

bonny said:



			Most of them will have gone through the sales and bought for 10â€™s or sometimes 100,s of thousand pounds, do you really believe the buyers fail to notice problems or that the vets there pass them anyway ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes because they do! They are passed sound of limb and wind and fit for the racing job. As has been said numerous times you DO NOT need the perfect specimen of a horse to race and win at a high level. Yes it helps but it is not essential. People buy winners. They buy good bloodlines that increase their CHANCES of getting a winner.

We had a horse in the yard many years ago. He was by Sadler's Wells out of an Oaks winning mare. He sold for Â£4 Million as a yearling - before he had even had a saddle anywhere near him. His bloodlines demanded that money. He went into Ballydoyle so not exactly some small time yard. That horse should have won the Guinnaes and the Derby along with many other top class races. Instead he ended up jumping round the northern point to point circuit as a gelding having never won a race in his life - flat, hurdles, chases or points! He was just epically useless! He was pigeon toed too!


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 March 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			't
Yes exactly. You don need to know much about study design to see that those 2 groups are not matched so differences between them can be for any number of reasons. A bit like all those alcohol industry studies showing that t-totallers die younger than moderate drinkers - without looking at why people might be t-total in the first place. Like underlying illness for example!
		
Click to expand...

Bollox ... I am going to die young! I don't drink - I quite simply don't want to! I don't smoke - blergh! I don't do drugs - can't stand the things! But I do gamble! Does that mean I am going to be gunned down for my gambling debts in Vegas by the time I am 40!?!?! Score! I'll take that! LOL!


----------



## bonny (16 March 2019)

EKW said:



			Yes because they do! They are passed sound of limb and wind and fit for the racing job. As has been said numerous times you DO NOT need the perfect specimen of a horse to race and win at a high level. Yes it helps but it is not essential. People buy winners. They buy good bloodlines that increase their CHANCES of getting a winner.

We had a horse in the yard many years ago. He was by Sadler's Wells out of an Oaks winning mare. He sold for Â£4 Million as a yearling - before he had even had a saddle anywhere near him. His bloodlines demanded that money. He went into Ballydoyle so not exactly some small time yard. That horse should have won the Guinnaes and the Derby along with many other top class races. Instead he ended up jumping round the northern point to point circuit as a gelding having never won a race in his life - flat, hurdles, chases or points! He was just epically useless!
		
Click to expand...

Nobody paid Â£4 million for that horse without him passing the vet at the sales, didnâ€™t mean he wouldnâ€™t be useless though !


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 March 2019)

bonny said:



			Nobody paid Â£4 million for that horse without him passing the vet at the sales, didnâ€™t mean he wouldnâ€™t be useless though !
		
Click to expand...

Exactly - he was vetted and passed fit for purpose for a ridiculous amount of money by people who have more than enough of a clue to know what they are doing and what they are looking for. The one thing you can't vet or predict is the horses brain.


----------



## Cortez (16 March 2019)

bonny said:



			Nobody paid Â£4 million for that horse without him passing the vet at the sales, didnâ€™t mean he wouldnâ€™t be useless though !
		
Click to expand...

Passing a vet just means a horse is sound of wind & limb, and their heart works properly. It doesn't mean they have perfect or even good conformation. I'm not really sure of the point you're trying to get across here - is it that you don't believe ugly horses can win races?


----------



## bonny (16 March 2019)

Cortez said:



			Passing a vet just means a horse is sound of wind & limb, and their heart works properly. It doesn't mean they have perfect or even good conformation. I'm not really sure of the point you're trying to get across here - is it that you don't believe ugly horses can win races?
		
Click to expand...

My point is that people who are buying these horses know what they are looking at, conformation plays a big part as does how a horse moves, pedigree is important but itâ€™s by no means the only thing that counts especially in jumping horses.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 March 2019)

JJS said:



			Whilst I absolutely agree that racing is the lesser evil, I'm not sure why people can't be outraged by both. Believing that racing needs to be banned and believing that something needs to be done about the breeding of coloured cobs are not mutually exclusive issues, so far as I can tell. In fact, the number of ex-racers who come out of racing, end up in inexperienced hands, and are passed from pillar to post surely compounds the welfare crisis overall?
		
Click to expand...

But if racing bumps off the excess there is an even bigger outcry. I am currently trying my hardest to find a few of ours good homes. The amount of muppets out there scares me. I have sent out far too many diplomatic - Sorry, all of the horses are now spoken for - messages for my liking!


----------



## Lammy (16 March 2019)

bonny said:



			My point is that people who are buying these horses know what they are looking at, conformation plays a big part as does how a horse moves, pedigree is important but itâ€™s by no means the only thing that counts especially in jumping horses.
		
Click to expand...

Rightly or wrongly pedigree is very highly ranked when it comes to racehorses. I was shown a 3 day old filly at the National stud quite a few years ago, she already had a price tag of 80k due to her pedigree.


----------



## bonny (16 March 2019)

EKW said:



			But if racing bumps off the excess there is an even bigger outcry. I am currently trying my hardest to find a few of ours good homes. The amount of muppets out there scares me. I have sent out far too many diplomatic - Sorry, all of the horses are now spoken for - messages for my liking!
		
Click to expand...

I think the problem is that there are just too many horses/ponies around and not enough sensible homes. If less of all kinds were bred the problems would ease and that includes Tbs down to little ponies.


----------



## bonny (16 March 2019)

Lammy said:



			Rightly or wrongly pedigree is very highly ranked when it comes to racehorses. I was shown a 3 day old filly at the National stud quite a few years ago, she already had a price tag of 80k due to her pedigree.
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s true for the flat, pedigree is crucial but not for jumpers.


----------



## ester (16 March 2019)

The trouble is that conformation really doesn't seem to make that much difference to a lot of horses and how fast they go. Justify has pretty dodgy legs!


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (16 March 2019)

I completely agree. Racing does try to cap numbers by only allowing natural coverings and no AI. But the general horse population has just got ridiculous. We havent intentionally bred a shetland for 11 years because there is no market for them. I will not sell them for Â£50 to some idiot for their kids 5th birthday to live in a garden in a council estate!

As for bloodlines - people are wanting more specific ones for jumping now too. Milan is hugely popular though highly infertile. Yeats is in great demand, Presenting, Oscar and Beneficial are all popular sires. Coming through from the flat staying ranks is where the next generation of National Hunt sires is coming from. Sir Erec would have been one of very, very few jumping sires to have actually jumped a hurdle in public himself. The boys are too precious of their crown jewels to withstand the jumping game.


----------



## Mule (16 March 2019)

bonny said:



			I think the problem is that there are just too many horses/ponies around and not enough sensible homes. If less of all kinds were bred the problems would ease and that includes Tbs down to little ponies.
		
Click to expand...

It would also drive up prices for horses in general, which would be no harm. Imo it's bad for welfare when horses can be got for so much less than it costs to take half decent care of them 



EKW said:



			I completely agree. Racing does try to cap numbers by only allowing natural coverings and no AI. But the general horse population has just got ridiculous. We havent intentionally bred a shetland for 11 years because there is no market for them. I will not sell them for Â£50 to some idiot for their kids 5th birthday to live in a garden in a council estate!

As for bloodlines - people are wanting more specific ones for jumping now too. Milan is hugely popular though highly infertile. Yeats is in great demand, Presenting, Oscar and Beneficial are all popular sires. Coming through from the flat staying ranks is where the next generation of National Hunt sires is coming from. Sir Erec would have been one of very, very few jumping sires to have actually jumped a hurdle in public himself. The boys are too precious of their crown jewels to withstand the jumping game.
		
Click to expand...

With more flat racer sires, can we expect the jumpers to get more fragile?


----------



## bonny (16 March 2019)

mule said:



			It would also drive up prices for horses in general, which would be no harm. Imo it's bad for welfare when horses can be got for so much less than it costs to take half decent care of them
With more flat racer sires, can we expect the jumpers to get more fragile?
		
Click to expand...

Virtually all jumping horses are sired by flat racing stallions and always have been. Jump horses are nearly always gelded.


----------



## Mule (17 March 2019)

bonny said:



			Virtually all jumping horses are sired by flat racing stallions and always have been. Jump horses are nearly always gelded.
		
Click to expand...

Why not keep them entire to breed from the good ones?


----------



## bonny (17 March 2019)

mule said:



			Why not keep them entire to breed from the good ones?
		
Click to expand...

Variety of reasons, temperament, stallions tend to not hold their form and are interested in other things ! People worry that the horse worries about hurting himself if he hits a fence, Iâ€™m not so sure about that one ! If you use flat stallions they prove their worth by the age of 3 or 4, a jumping horse would be much older etc.


----------



## bonny (17 March 2019)

In France they are beginning to race more entires and some of the fashionable sires over there have raced over jumps themselves


----------



## DD (17 March 2019)

https://www.league.org.uk/news/inju...Sn8YYcep6hOPClc1CU1-wxFuKoYm0eDABYPLyshvVdbV4


----------



## DD (17 March 2019)

time to ban horse racing and dog racing. cruel sports.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (17 March 2019)

Downton Dame said:



			time to ban horse racing and dog racing. cruel sports.
		
Click to expand...

Along with eventing, endurance, show jumping, in fact all equestrian sports that require you to ride the horse. Better stop using dogs for retrieving and hounds for hunting. Stop using dogs, cats, ferrets and birds of prey to hunt with too. Lets let them all free to live life the natural way as nature intended! 

You may also be interested in a site called Racehorse Death Watch - fill your boots! There are horses on there that  I know are still alive and I have asked them to remove from the list but that would be one less death to shout about wouldn't it?


----------



## gunnergundog (17 March 2019)

EKW said:



			Stop using dogs, cats, ferrets and birds of prey to hunt with too. Lets let them all free to live life the natural way as nature intended!
		
Click to expand...

You mean let the dogs hunt the cats, let the cats hunt the mice, let the ferrets hunt the rabbits and let the birds of prey hunt anything they can get their talons into!    Hunting is natural and nature is cruel, whether or not mankind is involved it will continue.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (17 March 2019)

gunnergundog said:



			You mean let the dogs hunt the cats, let the cats hunt the mice, let the ferrets hunt the rabbits and let the birds of prey hunt anything they can get their talons into!    Hunting is natural and nature is cruel, whether or not mankind is involved it will continue.
		
Click to expand...

Oh no! You would need to de-fang/claw/talon them and brainwash them all into living together in harmony! Let them all breed willy nilly! Crossbreed too cos why the hell not! You need to genetically modify the plants as well so they dont have feelings and thus dont mind about being eaten! I mean we all need to go vegan and live in fluffy bunny world man!


----------



## gunnergundog (17 March 2019)

EKW said:



			Oh no! You would need to de-fang/claw/talon them and brainwash them all into living together in harmony! Let them all breed willy nilly! Crossbreed too cos why the hell not! You need to genetically modify the plants as well so they dont have feelings and thus dont mind about being eaten! I mean we all need to go vegan and live in fluffy bunny world man!
		
Click to expand...

You mean......UTOPIA!  Not.


----------



## minesadouble (17 March 2019)

There are undoubtedly some horrific moments in racing, I'm no fluffy bunny and consider myself a realist but freely admit the moment Sir Erec lost his action I spun away from the TV and didn't turn back until I knew the cameras were off him. I love NH racing and though I wish there was a way to make it 100% safe there just isn't. 
Anyone who watched the Festival meeting will have.seen fallen horses get up and bowl along at the front of the field, jumping fences riderles, ears pricked with as good as a grin on their faces having a whale of a time! 
There are inevitable tragedies in racing but I console myself that no horse lost in a race ever truly suffers for any amount of time. They are either killed outright or if injured they are full of adrenaline and a Vet is on the scene within seconds. 
One of our livery horses broke a leg in the field and had to be held while it repeatedly tried to lie down, groaning, hind leg swinging, while waiting over an hour for a Sunday vet. No  horse injured on a racetrack would ever have to endure that.


----------



## Amymay (17 March 2019)

Downton Dame said:



			time to ban horse racing and dog racing. cruel sports.
		
Click to expand...

Again, I ask you - ever heard of the AHT?


----------



## JanetGeorge (17 March 2019)

Downton Dame said:



https://www.league.org.uk/news/inju...Sn8YYcep6hOPClc1CU1-wxFuKoYm0eDABYPLyshvVdbV4

Click to expand...

Gee Downton Dame - that really proves a point.  You really think that tasteless rubbish helps the case?  There is a rather big difference between an injured person and an injured horse - a person can be usually be treated successfully.  A horse with a broken leg can't!  Same with brain - a human CAN survive hopeless brain damage and be kept on support machines for some sort of 'life' - a horse can't.  So I chose to PTS a much loved horse who was kicked in the head and could only have survived as a vegetable - with a respirator, iv feed and catheters.  And he was just enjoying life in the field when it happened.


----------



## ROMANY 1959 (18 March 2019)

Oh wow...what a debate I started ..just saying about Sir Erec, he was such a handsome horse.. but horses can get a fatal injury anytime canâ€™t they.. My friend lost one of her youngsters to a field injury, leg down a rabbit hole, broken leg , PTS?.


----------



## shortstuff99 (18 March 2019)

Got to point out though if 7+ horses died on the XC at badminton each year there would be huge outcry and looking at why it was so dangerous and what jumps should we or shouldn't use, people probably wouldn't run their horses etc. It happens in racing and everyone is like 'meh'. I find that a bit weird. People don't go out of their way to hurt horses in fact most of us try and stop our horses being injured, yet in racing you're near enough guaranteed to injur your horse, are you seriously all comfortable with the amount of injuries in racing? Would you be happy for your precious horse to run with the same odds of injury? Who remembers the grand national a few years ago when a family home trained a horse and he unfortunately died in the race and they said they would never race a horse again as it wasn't worth it? Heart wrenching.


----------



## ycbm (18 March 2019)

I think it's petty well known that I'm very conflicted about jump racing. I appreciate the contribution it makes to the economy, the number of jobs which rely on it, the skill that goes into it, the fun that people have following it and watching it, the fact that the horses wouldn't be alive at all if they weren't bred to race , and that they would choose life if offered the choice.

But the fact remains that the published death rate at the race course is over 1% of horses in jump training per year. That doesn't include what I suspect is at least another 1%  put down at home after an injury sustained during a race. Eventing has, I think, well over 10,000 horses registered for this season. If three horses died every single weekend at BE events, and another three PTS when they got home, would BE continue to run?

No, I don't think jump racing should be stopped, but in my heart I hope it fades out slowly over time.



..


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (18 March 2019)

Flat racing has a higher injury rate than jumps racing but in the yards at home because they are so young.


----------



## BOWS28 (18 March 2019)

ycbm said:



			I think it's petty well known that I'm very conflicted about jump racing. I appreciate the contribution it makes to the economy, the number of jobs which rely on it, the skill that goes into it, the fun that people have following it and watching it, the fact that the horses wouldn't be alive at all if they weren't bred to race , and that they would choose life if offered the choice.

But the fact remains that the published death rate at the race course is over 1% of horses in jump training per year. That doesn't include what I suspect is at least another 1%  put down at home after an injury sustained during a race. Eventing has, I think, well over 10,000 horses registered for this season. If three horses died every single weekend at BE events, and another three PTS when they got home, would BE continue to run?

No, I don't think jump racing should be stopped, but in my heart I hope it fades out slowly over time.



..
		
Click to expand...


I completely agree. So many people have such a strong opinion on hunting. I don't personally participate although, i have done. I worked on a hunt yard for a few years and i can honestly say when they were out the horses loved it. Didnt make it any easier when we had to deal with them in the states they were brought home in though.
A horse i rode as a young teenager broke his leg out hunting. Complete freak accident. Had jumped all day, was one of the fittest hunters to be at the meet, built like a tank, solid and well put together and he came home with a fractured pastern. Thankfully, the vets in newmarket managed to put him back together and 8 years later he is still hacking and causing havoc as he always did. Whatever you do with your horses, there is a risk. Eventing, hunting, showjumping, dressage, sponsored rides or even turning them out in the field!! Accidents happen. All we can do is do everything physically possible to decrease the risk/chances of injury. Horses will be horses.
The fact remains, things happen. Opinions differ and to be honest the likely hood of things in the racing world changing any time soon as pretty unlikely. But i do truly believe the horses enjoy it. Whether that's because that is all they have ever known or it runs through their veins, we'll never know.


----------



## Ambers Echo (18 March 2019)

I love racing and would not support a ban but I do think the injury and death rates are too high. And however much people talk about their much-loved horses - money talks and they are there to do a job and will be sacrificed to that end. Racing could be made safer in many different ways but that would cost.


----------



## bonny (18 March 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			I love racing and would not support a ban but I do think the injury and death rates are too high. And however much people talk about their much-loved horses - money talks and they are there to do a job and will be sacrificed to that end. Racing could be made safer in many different ways but that would cost.
		
Click to expand...

How would you make it safer then ?


----------



## Goldenstar (18 March 2019)

I am not a huge follower of racing not against it itâ€™s just not my thing .
I would say to those who say ban racing that where is your evidence  that losses in racing as any higher than in other uses of horses .
With racing itâ€™s the pubic nature that promotes the outrage eventing gets the same to a lesser degree.
The parade of posts about lame horses on here daily who are suffering the slow loss of soundness in chronic discomfort that moves into pain in an slow onward progression shows that no area of horse use has the moral high ground .
All this hysterical anti racing stuff is really for people who donâ€™t want people to use animals at all .
Yes racing does has questions to answer but itâ€™s not over these high profile deaths itâ€™s what happens to the sound and half sound ones after racing thatâ€™s the biggest issue .


----------



## Ambers Echo (18 March 2019)

I am no expert but I do not believe it is beyond the wit of man to improve safety if the will was truly there.

I am happy to be corrected but my belief is that these horses are viewed as business assets and are considered disposable. Lots die visibly at the tracks but many more die silently in training or are slaughtered for meat after racing. Euthanasia is not a terrible outcome compared to dead foals in ditches, but I still don;t agree with mass slaughter of healthy, fit horses which is not as a result of neglect or something having gone wrong but is just an inevitable part of the current business model in racing. Because it is a business, money talks and safety and welfare are, I think, sacrificed. But also because it is a business there could be legal obligations placed on breeders, owners and trainers that views the horses as 'workforce' in a business and protects their rights so they are not exploited for financial gain.

Some ideas off the top of my head but there are probably better ones out there if anyone wants to make racing safer:

Firstly I would commission proper research into the effect of racing on 2 year olds. The study saying it reduces their risk the BHA keep citing discussed upthread is bobbins. I can't believe such a poorly controlled piece of research is being used in the way it is. I suspect the conclusion would be that 18 month old horses should not be in full training and 2 year olds should not be racing. That would probably help.

I would also want statistics on deaths in training including the yearlings.  In other words if you plan to race a 2 year old you need to register him a year in advance and notify someone if they die. So that any who die training are counted in the statistics. That may stop a dozen yearlings being chucked at a wall in training and racing the one who doesn't break.

And it could be a condition of their licence that if a trainer has an unusually high number of deaths in training they need to be independently inspected to figure out why. The way surgeons are.

And I would want a register of where horses go post racing. They should not be considered disposable. There should be some sort of code of ethics that you are held to in terms of post career welfare. So some of the money from racing should fund post career welfare with euthanasia for unsound horses not fit, healthy 2-5 year olds who just happen to be of no use for racing anymore.

I am not sure who should be responsible (breeders, owners or both in some formula) but if there was a long term financial obligation regarding the welfare of these horses, then maybe that would help. And again if a trainer as a suspiciously high number of horse slaughtered as 'unsound' they need inspecting too.

These horses are a business so they should be viewed more like 'work-force' than pets and  it is possible to put legal obligations on how you treat your workforce. So if a horse is bred for racing, bought for racing, trained for racing then it should be possible to impose enforceable responsibilities for their welfare before, during and to a degree after their careers.


Then:
- Lower numbers in the field
- Look at fences and ground.
- Being willing to shorten courses if ground is terrible.

I am sure there are lots of other ways - but it should be evidence led and with a real will to keep the athleticism and speed and courage but improve safety.  But everyone has their own line to draw.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (18 March 2019)

Amber's Echo are you talking about this link?
http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp?section=RT&year=2008&area=11



			Firstly I would commission proper research into the effect of racing on 2 year olds. The study saying it reduces their risk the BHA keep citing discussed upthread is bobbins. I can't believe such a poorly controlled piece of research is being used in the way it is. I suspect the conclusion would be that 18 month old horses should not be in full training and 2 year olds should not be racing. That would probably help.
		
Click to expand...

It is the American Jockey club in the link. I honestly don't know if the British version believes the same or not. I just wanted to clarify that. I was given this link by an American who wanted to show me that racing at two was beneficial. When I asked to see the study itself, nothing was forthcoming and unfortunately I wasn't able to find it myself via google.

I have read that many jump horses are backed at older ages (I guess ones that didn't flat race when younger). I do wonder if they are sounder/less sound statistically? Of course if the ones transferring from the flat turned out to be tougher, it could be because the weaker ones have already been discarded (awful term, but you know what I'm getting at). It is something that needs to be looked at thoroughly.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (18 March 2019)

RE the going. Does anyone remember the bog at the Grand National the year that Red Marauder won? Horses just fell like skittles, but there weren't fatalities. Did the deep going somehow make it safer? A nice squashy landing or it slowed them down?


----------



## Ambers Echo (18 March 2019)

Faracat said:



			Amber's Echo are you talking about this link?
http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp?section=RT&year=2008&area=11


It is the American Jockey club in the link. I honestly don't know if the British version believes the same or not. I just wanted to clarify that. I was given this link by an American who wanted to show me that racing at two was beneficial. When I asked to see the study itself, nothing was forthcoming and unfortunately I wasn't able to find it myself via google.

I have read that many jump horses are backed at older ages (I guess ones that didn't flat race when younger). I do wonder if they are sounder/less sound statistically? Of course if the ones transferring from the flat turned out to be tougher, it could be because the weaker ones have already been discarded (awful term, but you know what I'm getting at). It is something that needs to be looked at thoroughly.
		
Click to expand...


Sorry yes the Jockey Club not the BHA... The research Bramlage cites is described in the link. The 2 groups they are comparing (raced at 2 or raced older) were not matched for confounding variables so any comparison is meaningless.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (18 March 2019)

Thank you for explaining. I want to understand more about good research v bad research. 

I have been told in the past that although the Dr Bennett 'Ranger' piece is an article written for a magazine, that the research behind it is sound. Of course I don't know that for certain as I've not seen the research that she used (and I possibly wouldn't understand it all without a bit of help anyway).


----------



## ycbm (18 March 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			where is your evidence  that losses in racing as any higher than in other uses of horses .

.
		
Click to expand...


In the on course death rates published by the racing and eventing authorities.

And in the fact that other sports which take much longer than  a race, like polo, hunting,  endurance would, if they had the same death rate per minute of activity as jump racing, be littered with the corpses of dead horses.

There would be at least three every weekend at BE events.

Even the racing authorities, to their credit,  don't try to pretend that they don't have a much higher death rate than other horse activities, GS.




			The parade of posts about lame horses on here daily who are suffering the slow loss of soundness in chronic discomfort that moves into pain in an slow onward progression shows that no area of horse use has the moral high ground .
		
Click to expand...

Two wrongs don't make a right.





			]All this hysterical anti racing stuff is really for people who donâ€™t want people to use animals at all .
		
Click to expand...

That's pretty insulting to a number of forum members GS ðŸ˜’

There is a campaign going on supported by doctors against school rugby, because of the number of serious injuries compared with other sports. Would you conclude that the people who support it are against all sport?


.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (18 March 2019)

One can't help but wonder what endurance's region 7's death rate is compared to the other regions.


----------



## Ambers Echo (18 March 2019)

Faracat said:



			Thank you for explaining. I want to understand more about good research v bad research.
		
Click to expand...

Your post upthread shows you already understand the concept of matching when you write: 

"Of course if the ones transferring from the flat turned out to be tougher, it could be because the weaker ones have already been discarded"

If you are going to look at outcomes of 2 groups then you need to ensure they are similar in all areas apart from the area you are studying - on this case the age they start racing. That is the process of matching - or controlling for other explanations for the differences you see in the 2 groups. There will be lots of reasons a horse is held back till 3 and many of those reasons may relate to the soundness, strength, robustness etc of those horses, so the groups in the Jockey Club study appear not to be matched  which makes the conclusions unjustifiable as there are other explanations for the results.


----------



## ycbm (18 March 2019)

There is something deeply disturbing about racing as a horse sport, which is that it wouldn't exist at the level it does now if it were not for the  betting industry.  The idea that horses are being used in a sport with a known high death rate,  as fodder for a multi billion pound industry to make a profit from does stick in the craw a bit for me.

If pays for a hell of a lot of nurses, though ....


----------



## Ambers Echo (18 March 2019)

ETA the other problem with the study is they are looking at proxy outcomes and extrapolating from those: they are stating that horses race more often and earn more when they race at 2 and using those findings as a proxy indicator that those horses are stronger and sounder. Whereas in fact it may reflect that trainers who race at 2 are happy to race more and trainers who wait are more cautions OR the horses who are raced at 2 just naturally stand up to more racing. OR horses that race more overall and have a year extra in their careers are bound to earn more. Whihc is the whole reason 2 years olds are raced! For they money they earn on that extra year of racing they get.

 So there are 2 major flaws in the study from the brief description of it. Which is probably why it has not been published! It is not of publishable quality. It sounds like it is an industry study done for and by the industry and not peer reviewed (the process by which experts in the relevant field read papers before they are published  and decide if they are worthy of publication or not).


----------



## bonny (18 March 2019)

Did anybody see ted Walshâ€™s interview at Cheltenham to get the opposing view?


----------



## Goldenstar (18 March 2019)

ycbm said:



			In the on course death rates published by the racing and eventing authorities.

And in the fact that other sports which take much longer than  a race, like polo, hunting,  endurance would, if they had the same death rate per minute of activity as jump racing, be littered with the corpses of dead horses.

There would be at least three every weekend at BE events.

Even the racing authorities, to their credit,  don't try to pretend that they don't have a much higher death rate than other horse activities, GS.



Two wrongs don't make a right.




That's pretty insulting to a number of forum members GS ðŸ˜’

There is a campaign going on supported by doctors against school rugby, because of the number of serious injuries compared with other sports. Would you conclude that the people who support it are against all sport?


.
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s what I believe if you choose to think itâ€™s insulting thatâ€™s up to you.


Yes the nature of the sport means racing has more deaths but a quick death is not the worse thing that can happen to a horse .


----------



## ycbm (18 March 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Itâ€™s what I believe if you choose to think itâ€™s insulting thatâ€™s up to you.

 .
		
Click to expand...

It's pretty obvious that it isn't true of me or anyone else on this forum who rides, drives, has dogs,  cats or other pets and has doubts about jump racing,  that we don't want animals used at all. 

No-one can stop you believing things that patently aren't true, of course.


----------



## ycbm (18 March 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Yes the nature of the sport means racing has more deaths but a quick death is not the worse thing that can happen to a horse .
		
Click to expand...

Two wrongs don't make a right.


----------



## Goldenstar (18 March 2019)

ycbm said:



			It's pretty obvious that it isn't true of me or anyone else on this forum who rides, drives, has dogs,  cats or other pets and has doubts about jump racing,  that we don't want animals used at all. 

No-one can stop you believing things that patently aren't true, of course.
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s a view ,different from yours .many of us smile and ignore your â€˜insulting â€˜ views all the time .


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (18 March 2019)

bonny said:



			Did anybody see ted Walshâ€™s interview at Cheltenham to get the opposing view?
		
Click to expand...

Aye ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ go and watch Peppa Pig ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ I love Ted Walsh! He is awesome!


----------



## cundlegreen (18 March 2019)

Faracat said:



			RE the going. Does anyone remember the bog at the Grand National the year that Red Marauder won? Horses just fell like skittles, but there weren't fatalities. Did the deep going somehow make it safer? A nice squashy landing or it slowed them down?
		
Click to expand...

Speed kills. The softer the fences are, and the better the ground, the more injuries you are going to have.


----------



## southerncomfort (18 March 2019)

Do horses love racing though?

Having read EKW's fantastic threads I'm convinced that they love their training runs.  I have no doubt about that.  But do they enjoy a race?  I'm not so sure to be honest.

When I watch  a race (and I'm thinking more of jump racing) what i see is horses that start off keen but eventually need more and more 'motivating' from the jockey.  I see horses that finish a race looking absolutely exhausted, head down, veins bulging, blowing hard.  I can't look at a horse in that state and believe its having fun.  Horses are honest creatures and if trained to a job from a very young age will do it without question, so I'm not sure the old 'if a horse didn't enjoy it he wouldn't run' quite stands up.

I wouldn't want to see racing stopped but as an industry it cannot keep turning a blind eye to the welfare and well being of these willing, obedient horses. I think any sport that results in fatalities ought to be asking itself some tough questions.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (18 March 2019)

Faracat said:



			RE the going. Does anyone remember the bog at the Grand National the year that Red Marauder won? Horses just fell like skittles, but there weren't fatalities. Did the deep going somehow make it safer? A nice squashy landing or it slowed them down?
		
Click to expand...

Carl Llewelyn also took 20+ horses out of contention at Canal Turn when his horse ran down the front of the fence causing many to refuse or lose their jockeys. The majority remounted - you could in those days - but by the time they had got back on the right horse, turned and represented the front ones that weren't involved in the melee were long gone. 4 horses finished. The first 2 home had a clear round, 3rd and 4th were remounts. The rest pulled up knowing they had no chance what so ever.


----------



## meleeka (18 March 2019)

southerncomfort said:



			Do horses love racing though?

Having read EKW's fantastic threads I'm convinced that they love their training runs.  I have no doubt about that.  But do they enjoy a race?  I'm not so sure to be honest.

When I watch  a race (and I'm thinking more of jump racing) what i see is horses that start off keen but eventually need more and more 'motivating' from the jockey.  I see horses that finish a race looking absolutely exhausted, head down, veins bulging, blowing hard.  I can't look at a horse in that state and believe its having fun.  Horses are honest creatures and if trained to a job from a very young age will do it without question, so I'm not sure the old 'if a horse didn't enjoy it he wouldn't run' quite stands up.

I wouldn't want to see racing stopped but as an industry it cannot keep turning a blind eye to the welfare and well being of these willing, obedient horses. I think any sport that results in fatalities ought to be asking itself some tough questions.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree with this.


----------



## WandaMare (18 March 2019)

southerncomfort said:



			I wouldn't want to see racing stopped but as an industry it cannot keep turning a blind eye to the welfare and well being of these willing, obedient horses. I think any sport that results in fatalities ought to be asking itself some tough questions.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree. I think its a great sport and wouldn't want to see it stopped but it needs to keep improving and evolving in a way which attracts new interest, rather than shying away from change. Its not helpful to be defensive and respond to issues by closing the door and refusing to listen to people's negative reactions. All other industries have to continually adapt to new audiences to stay relevant and I don't see why horse sports should be any different. We live in a world where compassion towards animals has gained a lot of momentum so the racing industry needs to keep up with these changes, which I know they have done to some extent, but they still need to do a lot more to protect the future of the sport.

Saying its all ok as it is and if people don't like it they need to toughen up is not the way successful businesses survive anymore, imo anyway.

I don't count myself as particularly sensitive over losing animals in sport, but I couldn't go to the grand national or cheltenham because I don't want to see horses getting injured and dying, that's my choice. I also have many friends who feel the same. If the racing was made a lot safer, then I would really love to go and possibly get involved. I wouldn't go now though because I don't feel confident that enough is being done.


----------



## Tiddlypom (18 March 2019)

shortstuff99 said:



			Who remembers the grand national a few years ago when a family home trained a horse and he unfortunately died in the race and they said they would never race a horse again as it wasn't worth it? Heart wrenching.
		
Click to expand...

According to Pete, 2012 renewal. The day my love of racing died.

Grand National: According to Pete owner will not return http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-17719966


----------



## Goldenstar (18 March 2019)

Some horses love to race others not so much other hate its just like show jumpers dressage horses and eventers .


----------



## ycbm (18 March 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Itâ€™s a view ,different from yours .many of us smile and ignore your â€˜insulting â€˜ views all the time .
		
Click to expand...

Meow!

I'll assume you had a bad night, since you've written about pain related insomnia before, and that when you said 'All this hysterical anti racing stuff is really for people who donâ€™t want people to use animals at all ' , that you didn't mean that anyone who criticises racing is anti animals being used at all, and that I misread it.


----------



## bonny (18 March 2019)

southerncomfort said:



			Do horses love racing though?

Having read EKW's fantastic threads I'm convinced that they love their training runs.  I have no doubt about that.  But do they enjoy a race?  I'm not so sure to be honest.

When I watch  a race (and I'm thinking more of jump racing) what i see is horses that start off keen but eventually need more and more 'motivating' from the jockey.  I see horses that finish a race looking absolutely exhausted, head down, veins bulging, blowing hard.  I can't look at a horse in that state and believe its having fun.  Horses are honest creatures and if trained to a job from a very young age will do it without question, so I'm not sure the old 'if a horse didn't enjoy it he wouldn't run' quite stands up.

I wouldn't want to see racing stopped but as an industry it cannot keep turning a blind eye to the welfare and well being of these willing, obedient horses. I think any sport that results in fatalities ought to be asking itself some tough questions.
		
Click to expand...

Reading some of these threads you could be forgiven for thinking that the sport is doing nothing to make things safer whereas the reality is they are doing everything possible and more besides. A lot of people in racing think itâ€™s already gone too far and what might kill off the sport is all the rules and regulations . Like I say watch ted Walsh for the racing viewpoint . Secondly, Iâ€™m not sure any horse is having â€œfunâ€ being ridden, we ride horses for our sake not theirs and that goes for all horses.


----------



## ycbm (18 March 2019)

bonny said:



			Secondly, Iâ€™m not sure any horse is having â€œfunâ€ being ridden, we ride horses for our sake not theirs and that goes for all horses.
		
Click to expand...


Well that's not universally true, is it?  There are many horses being ridden when the rider doesn't really want to ride because it keeps their waistline in trim and is nicer for them than putting on a muzzle, for example.

Regarding the fun part, the eventer in my avatar used to get into any open lorry, was seen twice to jump course of show jumps when turned out in a  field, and used to scan the horizon for the white xc start box and tow me to it.

I'm pretty sure he thought cross country was a lot of fun and that lots of race horses like racing. I'm also pretty sure they like it a lot more than they would like being a dressage horse or a show jumper.



...


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (18 March 2019)

I do think the majority of horses like racing. Some, like Sky, absolutely relish the hustle and bustle and the sheer grit determination to fight for every inch to the line against their counterparts. Then you have others who enjoy going for a gallop and/or a jump but when push comes to shove at the end of a race they just go "Nah, not today I'll saunter home in my own time". And then others again who just plant themselves at the start and refuse to budge. 

I know they arent humans and to project human feelings into them is daft but I do believe that they (well the majority) are like humans who train for competition. They have a will to win and push themselves to achieve that. If it hurts they aren't stupid they back off a bit. You can't force half a tonne of adrenaline fueled muscle to do something it doesnt want to do.


----------



## bonny (18 March 2019)

EKW said:



			I do think the majority of horses like racing. Some, like Sky, absolutely relish the hustle and bustle and the sheer grit determination to fight for every inch to the line against their counterparts. Then you have others who enjoy going for a gallop and/or a jump but when push comes to shove at the end of a race they just go "Nah, not today I'll saunter home in my own time". And then others again who just plant themselves at the start and refuse to budge.

I know they arent humans and to project human feelings into them is daft but I do believe that they (well the majority) are like humans who train for competition. They have a will to win and push themselves to achieve that. If it hurts they aren't stupid they back off a bit. You can't force half a tonne of adrenaline fueled muscle to do something it doesnt want to do.
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s kind of true for most horses though, Iâ€™m sure they would prefer to never be ridden but if they could have a choice I think they would prefer a life of galloping together rather than be a dressage horse or be endlessly schooled in circles.....some of the anti racing people should look at their own horses lives before being so judgemental. You can make a horse race but you certainly canâ€™t make them do so successfully


----------



## cundlegreen (18 March 2019)

bonny said:



			Thatâ€™s kind of true for most horses though, Iâ€™m sure they would prefer to never be ridden but if they could have a choice I think they would prefer a life of galloping together rather than be a dressage horse or be endlessly schooled in circles.....some of the anti racing people should look at their own horses lives before being so judgemental. You can make a horse race but you certainly canâ€™t make them do so successfully
		
Click to expand...

You have to remember that racing is the nearest thing to living in the wild, in that horses are prey, and have an ingrained flight reflex. They are far happier in a herd than on their own, hence the will to win, and keep running. I saw a horse unseat its rider in the Foxhunters at Aintree many years ago at the second fence, then lead the field over all the other fences with his ears pricked. He had every opportunity to run round the fences, but stayed straight and true, and as far as he was concerned, he won that race. I always thought the owner would have buyers lined up for him after that performance!


----------



## WandaMare (18 March 2019)

I used to believe that because the horses enjoyed it, which I think a lot of them do, that it made the risks justifiable but I'm not sure that argument really makes sense anymore. Its great if the horses enjoy their job, but if they have to make the courses less spectacular, have fewer horses in each race or whatever makes it safer, I'm sure the horses will still enjoy it the same.


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (19 March 2019)

I know this article is a good few years old but it still holds more than it's value. It explains just why we can not fix some broken legs in horses.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2011/sep/23/claims-five-broken-leg-horse


----------



## tristar (19 March 2019)

well i know for certain that our horses love to be ridden!!!!    and enjoy very much working, they are working horses bred to work, BUT they never go to the end of their endurance and get exhausted, they come back relaxed and happy


----------



## bonny (19 March 2019)

tristar said:



			well i know for certain that our horses love to be ridden!!!!    and enjoy very much working, they are working horses bred to work, BUT they never go to the end of their endurance and get exhausted, they come back relaxed and happy
		
Click to expand...

This is all getting a bit far fetched .....you cannot know for certain your horses love to be ridden ! Do you talk to them and do they answer ?


----------



## Velcrobum (19 March 2019)

In one of the races at Cheltenham a horse dropped its rider and set off in pursuit of the rest of the field. It caught them and then proceeded to get in front of the leader, ears pricked and genuinely looking like it was having a very jolly time. Some horses want to race others do not - I have an ex-racer who really did not want to race despite having a lot of ability. He is an old fashioned NH type horse chunky and big boned so not a racing whippet type TB. I had a Welsh xTB some years ago who was horrible to ride in company as he HAD to be in front of any other horse/pony in the end it was so miserable he had to hack by himself and XC schooling could be very interesting if in a group.


----------



## Tiddlypom (19 March 2019)

bonny said:



			This is all getting a bit far fetched .....you cannot know for certain your horses love to be ridden ! Do you talk to them and do they answer ?
		
Click to expand...

I have had horses who love to be ridden and worked, and others less so. Of course they can make their views clear, if we but listen.


----------



## tristar (19 March 2019)

one persons `s far fetched is another persons reality.

several times i have been loose schooling horses using my voice as the main aid and people locally must have seen them working and have said,`they seem to be working on their own`or that stallion does everything you tell it`` i just say`` that`s right, thats exactly what is happening``

so yes i do talk to them, all the time in fact, and yes they do answer


----------



## ycbm (19 March 2019)

bonny said:



			This is all getting a bit far fetched .....you cannot know for certain your horses love to be ridden ! Do you talk to them and do they answer ?
		
Click to expand...


Yes, and yes.

At an event at a very spread out venue, I decided to ask my horse if he wanted to go cross country. The start gate was several hundred metres away across two fields. I didn't actually know where it was. I got on at the lorry, dropped the reins, and waited to see what he would do. He popped up his head, scanned the whole area until he saw the white rails of the start box, set off in that direction and stopped when he got there. I took that as a very clear signal that he wanted to go cross country.


----------



## Ambers Echo (19 March 2019)

Jenny loves to work. She is the only pony I have ever known who jogs and quickens her paces going away from home out hacking but slows down and drags her feet when we start heading back!

Amber gives every impression of liking hacking and LOVING XC. She is pretty meh about schooling and show jumping.


----------



## ycbm (19 March 2019)

I had another horse who would reach the gate home and refuse to go in and march past it up the road to continue the hack ðŸ˜


----------



## tristar (19 March 2019)

they live to please, and i live to ride, very lucky really


----------



## bonny (19 March 2019)

tristar said:



			they live to please, and i live to ride, very lucky really
		
Click to expand...

Letâ€™s assume racehorses want to be ridden then and race as that pleases their humans and all the arguments to the contrary are just wrong !


----------



## tristar (19 March 2019)

ah but i don`t assume things

i sometimes wonder just exactly what some people actually do with horses, because you get the impression its not a lot , but then lets not assume too much?


----------



## xDundryx (20 March 2019)

I thought between Frodon, Paisley Park and Tiger Roll national hunt racing had a lot of faith restored in it, I've always supported jump racing more than flat although have ended up with two ex flat horses ironically, after watching these horses coming in still full of running with their ears pricked there was an air of excitement and almost satisfaction from the racing community saying 'hey look fairytales come true even in racing'there was the feel.good factor. I tuned in for Gold Cup day and ended up feeling a little sick first seeing Sir Erec break down after all the attention had been on him, then when Invitation Only landed heavily and his legs instantly went stiff and didnt move I said to my OH, Oh God hes dead too. It's a tricky position to be in, the horses are doing 'their job' and the racing industry brings in a lot to the economy. I personally dont think Ted Walsh's comments have helped the situation, sometimes just thinking it is better than saying it!


----------



## windand rain (20 March 2019)

The simple truth is the kinder you make the ground and fences the faster the horses can run and as a result there are more accidents at higher speeds causing increasing risk of fatality. Not sure of the stats but I think there are more problems now with fatalities than there has ever been, fewer serious injury and as with the car speed restriction saying "speed kills" The type of horse has changed too as they are becoming more likely to have less bone and greater speed rather than staying power and strength which also contributes to their risk of injury or death


----------



## sportsmansB (20 March 2019)

I am so torn on this. 
I have a lot of friends involved in racing (mainly NH and pointing) and I have had many a good day out at the races. But my heart breaks when the screens come up, knowing that one of those horses won't be coming home. 
I DO feel that by the time we are watching those horses on telly, they must have demonstrated an enjoyment of it or they simply wouldn't have got as far as that meeting- several horses just don't want to race. 
I don't like to see jockeys whipping a tired horse to the line, and thats one area that I think could be improved. 
I keep my horse at a professional yard which probably averages 60 horses through it per year. We've lost 4 in the last 4 years - one broke its back out hunting, one slipped coming off the walker and broke its pelvis, one was my mare who just dropped in the field, and one got a kick from another horse on the gallops and fractured a leg. They were all as a result of us riding them and not keeping them out on the field 24/7 like nature intended, so is it all wrong? They had happy lives and wouldn't have been alive if it wasn't to serve our interests - so where does the fluffy bunny stuff stop?!


----------



## Equine_Dream (20 March 2019)

My biggest issue with those who cry for a ban on racing is that they have clearly not thought it through. It seems the reason behind most, in my experience anyway, is the fact horses are killed in racing.
My issue is that if we ban racing what happens to the tens of thousands of racehorses that are currently in training? Some can be rehomed but I doubt there are enough experienced homes for all of them. There would be many that would end up being PTS and how exactly is that better than an accident on the course? The outcome is the same.
Racing is far from perfect and it is awful when I horse is injured and needs to be pts but horses die everyday. In eventing, hunting, hacking, some just having a loon around in their fields. Are we going to ban all of them?


----------



## WandaMare (20 March 2019)

I wouldn't 'cry for a ban', I know some people will do, but I don't think turning a blind eye and deriding those who present a challenge is the right way either. I'm sure there will be a lot of analysis and review of what happened last week, by the Cheltenham organisers and the HRA and hopefully further improvements will be identified which will continue to move things in the right direction.

Horses do die in lots of different situations but the difference with racing and other horses sports is that people are paying money to watch them. If they are not kept happy, some of them will likely stop coming which is why its important to keep up with public perception and be seen to respond constructively when things go wrong.


----------



## bonny (20 March 2019)

WandaMare said:



			I wouldn't 'cry for a ban', I know some people will do, but I don't think turning a blind eye and deriding those who present a challenge is the right way either. I'm sure there will be a lot of analysis and review of what happened last week, by the Cheltenham organisers and the HRA and hopefully further improvements will be identified which will continue to move things in the right direction.

Horses do die in lots of different situations but the difference with racing and other horses sports is that people are paying money to watch them. If they are not kept happy, some of them will likely stop coming which is why its important to keep up with public perception and be seen to respond constructively when things go wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s exactly what is happening though, there are endless reviews, endless changes, I honestly donâ€™t think anything else can change to make things safer. Either racing continues or it doesnâ€™t, twice a year, at Cheltenham and aintree there is this debate as far as I can see on here by a lot of people who donâ€™t even see what changes there have been.


----------



## Equine_Dream (20 March 2019)

WandaMare said:



			I wouldn't 'cry for a ban', I know some people will do, but I don't think turning a blind eye and deriding those who present a challenge is the right way either. I'm sure there will be a lot of analysis and review of what happened last week, by the Cheltenham organisers and the HRA and hopefully further improvements will be identified which will continue to move things in the right direction.

Horses do die in lots of different situations but the difference with racing and other horses sports is that people are paying money to watch them. If they are not kept happy, some of them will likely stop coming which is why its important to keep up with public perception and be seen to respond constructively when things go wrong.
		
Click to expand...

As I say racing is far from perfect and there are still areas that can be improved. I don't have an issue with people who point these areas out. I do however think it's a bit strange when those who are outraged by the death of racehorses call for a ban, as banning racing would result in a good deal more horses being PTS.


----------



## ycbm (20 March 2019)

I honestly donâ€™t think anything else can change to make things safer.
		
Click to expand...

The BHA have new padded hurdles in test at six race courses this year, and another new design in prorotype testing which is reckoned to be even safer still.


----------

