# Has anyone any ideas - Pain reaction to being touched?



## HufflyPuffly (9 June 2016)

So this is something that has been bothering me slightly for a while now. 

Every now and again Topaz will react about either the saddle, saddlepad, girth or rug going on. It can be from the lightest of touches, so it's never a case of it being something thumped on her, and her girth we always put on loose let her walk round and tighten slowly so no pinching.

It's just so random she can go days/ weeks even without so much of a flick of the ear and then suddenly will react with ears back, face scowl flinch as though it hurts. She's a darling on the ground and a real softy so I don't think it's her being awkward but reacting to something.

She's been thoroughly checked over with lots of physio, saddle, dentist (not really relevent I guess for this but covering all bases!) visits and has even been scoped and shown a negative for ulcers. You can poke her back, withers, tummy all you like and gain no reaction, it's just so odd!

Had anyone experinenced anything like this and discovered the issue or found a solution? She doesn't do anything when she reacts but it concerns me she could be hurting somewhere and we're ignoring it...


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## FfionWinnie (9 June 2016)

Could it be when she's in season. Keep a diary to see if there's a pattern.


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## _GG_ (9 June 2016)

Scoping will only let a vet see gastric ulcers, not hind gut ulcers, so don't rule it out completely. Can't even rule gastric ulcers as scoping will show ulcers, but not necessarily show discomfort. There's a process that happens before an ulcer can be seen, so you may be a super duper owner that has listened to your horses teeny clues...you could always start managing for ulcers and see if that helps. 

Otherwise, yes, It could easily be hormonal or even muscle tightness somewhere.


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## stencilface (9 June 2016)

Mine has this every so often, he gets grumpy and scowly when I brush him down his side, flanks and near his sheath. I put this down to too much grass and keep him off it during the day a bit more, and it goes again, at least it seems to work!

He never got this before I took his shoes off, so whether its coincidental, or another factor I don't know. I know he never used to get it, as he's a lovely amenable kind of chap and I've come close to kicking legs and grumping several times


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## applecart14 (9 June 2016)

With humans fibromyalgia can cause sensitivity to touch as my Aunt has this. I believe horses can have fibromyalgia too but with my Aunt her symptoms are more or less consistent.


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## HufflyPuffly (9 June 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			Could it be when she's in season. Keep a diary to see if there's a pattern.
		
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Now there's a thought! I will start making a note as normally we don't tend to notice when she's in season but after a riggy gelding was on the yard has been a total floozy this year, so will make a note as at least its easier to tell when she's in season now .



_GG_ said:



			Scoping will only let a vet see gastric ulcers, not hind gut ulcers, so don't rule it out completely. Can't even rule gastric ulcers as scoping will show ulcers, but not necessarily show discomfort. There's a process that happens before an ulcer can be seen, so you may be a super duper owner that has listened to your horses teeny clues...you could always start managing for ulcers and see if that helps. 

Otherwise, yes, It could easily be hormonal or even muscle tightness somewhere.
		
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Very true about the scoping but her stomach was in perfect health from the scope at least, absolutely nothing of note the vet was very impressed  (well aside from some shavings she'd eaten in protest about being straved ). She also is now out 24/7 and aside from our attempts to muzzle her (muzzle keeps rubbing so we've had to abandon for the moment, and only started muzzling this summer), she is fed ad-lib forage with very very little hard feed at all and what she does have is low starch/sugar. So really aside from giving her an ulcer supplement and therefore needing to give her more feed (she's fussy), I'm not sure what else we can do for gastric ulcers? However hind gut ulcers is a thought, but would this show as discomfort around the front end, and is treatment only in the form of supplements? Sorry I'm not that clued up on hind gut ulcers but will go do some reading!

Will keep an eye on her seasons and see if theres a pattern, but if it's muscle tightness would the physio pick that up or what else could I try? She is quite an itchy sort of horse who adores her scratches, so she does have a massage pad and I tend to use one of thse mitts https://www.rideaway.co.uk/roma-massage-rubber-mitt?sku=344364&_$ja=cgid:14060837665|tsid:59260|cid:205668865|lid:81522959305|nw:g|crid:74760464905|rnd:17661893776374183930|dvc:c|adp:1o2|bku:1&gclid=CjwKEAjwp-S6BRDj4Z7z2IWUhG8SJAAbqbF3w6rMzzgvHf2Bx2f8cN8dX6VWreWbJgjLbH9mvl5UCxoC7Vbw_wcB on her which she loves , she's never flinched from these being used (her fave areas are just below her withers so maybe this is a 'trigger' spot somehow?).



stencilface said:



			Mine has this every so often, he gets grumpy and scowly when I brush him down his side, flanks and near his sheath. I put this down to too much grass and keep him off it during the day a bit more, and it goes again, at least it seems to work!

He never got this before I took his shoes off, so whether its coincidental, or another factor I don't know. I know he never used to get it, as he's a lovely amenable kind of chap and I've come close to kicking legs and grumping several times 

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Well she is also barefoot, maybe we've found a rare side affect .
Hmm she is porky and we do have a lot of grass at the moment, but she also does it all year round fom memory (never made a diary so cannot be quite sure), will add to my notes whether she does it after being stood in off the grass for a period of time too.



applecart14 said:



			With humans fibromyalgia can cause sensitivity to touch as my Aunt has this. I believe horses can have fibromyalgia too but with my Aunt her symptoms are more or less consistent.
		
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Would you care to share your experiance of fibromyalgia in horses, I've never heard of that before? Just done a llittle reading up on the little information there seems to be about it I'm quite confident she doesn't have the syndrome, as she is otherwise in perfect health and doesn't display any of the main symptoms, but an out of the box suggestion for sure.


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## applecart14 (10 June 2016)

AlexHyde said:



			Would you care to share your experiance of fibromyalgia in horses, I've never heard of that before? Just done a llittle reading up on the little information there seems to be about it I'm quite confident she doesn't have the syndrome, as she is otherwise in perfect health and doesn't display any of the main symptoms, but an out of the box suggestion for sure.
		
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Hi Alex - I didn't say I had any experience with fibromyalgia in horses. I simply said my Aunt has suffered from this illness for a long while and suffers from hypersensitivity as a result, sometimes the slightest touch makes her flinch - its called alodinia or something similar. She also gets really tired easily.  Although as I previously stated her symptoms are more or less consistent unlike your horse.  I do know that horses suffer from it too. I am a bit of a bookworm and OH always buys me H&R and Your Horse Magazines and I love going on line to read research stuff, etc. I am always reading and storing useless facts in my head, and it just pinged up as a suggestion. If you feel it is foolish then discount it by all means.

Apparently there is also an antibiotic called trimethoprim which CP Trayes suggested on one of my posts in 2011 may have made my horse very sensitive to touch but again, this may be an 'out of the box' suggestion.  CP Trayes said that it can make them sensitive to touch for a number of months.


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## HufflyPuffly (10 June 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Hi Alex - I didn't say I had any experience with fibromyalgia in horses. I simply said my Aunt has suffered from this illness for a long while and suffers from hypersensitivity as a result, sometimes the slightest touch makes her flinch - its called alodinia or something similar. She also gets really tired easily.  Although as I previously stated her symptoms are more or less consistent unlike your horse.  I do know that horses suffer from it too. I am a bit of a bookworm and OH always buys me H&R and Your Horse Magazines and I love going on line to read research stuff, etc. I am always reading and storing useless facts in my head, and it just pinged up as a suggestion. If you feel it is foolish then discount it by all means.

Apparently there is also an antibiotic called trimethoprim which CP Trayes suggested on one of my posts in 2011 may have made my horse very sensitive to touch but again, this may be an 'out of the box' suggestion.  CP Trayes said that it can make them sensitive to touch for a number of months.
		
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Please if you're going to respond on my threads do not put words in my mouth, you have written it is foolish not me and no where have I implied that.

It is an out of the box suggestion as it is not known scientifically in horses that I can find, my question is how do you know it is found in horses (underlined in your quote)? Especially as there is no specific diagnosis in people only the ruling out of other issues, and the symptoms based around hypersensitivity couldn't ever really quantified in horses as how would you tell if the horses response is hyper-sensitive or normal for that horse? 

The antibiotic idea is again interesting but she's not ever been treated with it, and apart from annual vaccinations and some topic cream for mud rash I'm struggling to think of the last medication she's been given.


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## applecart14 (10 June 2016)

AlexHyde said:



			Please if you're going to respond on my threads do not put words in my mouth, you have written it is foolish not me and no where have I implied that.
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I did not say you had implied that.  Why are you jumping on me please and why would you possibly take offence when all I said was "if you think its foolish feel free to disregard it?"  I did feel a bit worried about writing it tbh in light of what people have said recently but I think it was as valid a suggestion as the others.


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## Damnation (10 June 2016)

Oh for gods sake... again? Really?

OP - When this happens is the area hot? Or did you recently wash the numnah/saddle pad? Is there any specific thing that you may have done that would cause maybe a slightly sore muscle, or sensative skin? Is it always the same place or always around her saddle, girth area? Does it happen after she has gotten sweaty?

Sooo many variables! If only they could talk?


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## Dry Rot (10 June 2016)

OP, what is this horse's history?

We have a 5yo Highland gelding that has only just been backed because we experienced this sort of behaviour, but more extreme. Last year, the pony was sat on. We tried a couple of steps and he exploded (as much as a Highland does explode!). We started work again after the winter and all went well. Then tried to gently tighten the girth which he has tolerated before -- and another explosion!

This is a pony that can be caught, led, groomed, loaded, have it's feet lifted, etc. then suddenly takes a dislike to something it has accepted a couple of weeks before. This pony was off the hill where he was running in a herd of 70 until two, so we think it might be a fear reaction to being touched when memories of being attacked by a more dominant horse in the herd are reawakened, but don't really know. Very frustrating when progress seems to be good -- then suddenly isn't!


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## Caramac71 (10 June 2016)

We've got a mare who has reacted mildly to girth (she doesnt mind it being tightened when it's been done up loosely, its the initial doing up that results in face pulling).

Ours had many other problems and was eventually diagnosed last year with facet joint arthritis.  During the very lengthy diagnostics, we had her scoped and we also had her ovaries scanned, amongst other things.  Like yours, her scope was beautifully clear and vet ruled out hind gut ulcers on the basis that it is normal to see some degree of scarring in most horses but she had none.  Therefore they felt it was unlikely there was any gut problems.  Also like yours she lives out 24/7 with access to ad lib hay when the grass is sparse and isnt what you'd think of as an ulcers candidate at all.

We've been through lots of physio, chiro, rehab and she improved in many ways but has always been sensitive to saddle/girth/lunge roller, and occasionally rugs.

More recently we've changed to a different vet who offers acupuncture, and on her first visit she said she reacts very like an ulcers horse.  She was also seen by a barefoot trimmer as I wanted a second opinion on her feet, and he said the same thing about her.  He persuaded me to trial some supplements (Ulcerex Plus and Remount from Ronfields Nutrition) and also a very good probiotic.  I did the loading dose of everything and within 3 days she showed no signs of being girthy.  When we dropped down to maintenance and stopped the probiotic she became a bit sensitive again.  So we've upped the dosage of the supplements and started on the second pack of probiotics. She seems much happier again.

I dont think gut sensitivities are the root of her problems as we know with her there is more going on, but I definitely think the supplements/probiotics we are using are making a difference to her comfort.

The trimmer who suggested the supplements is doing gait analysis on her (before and after treatment).  The "before" is showing abnormal movement in her hind legs which obviously could well be related to her back problems, but he thinks it could be linked to gut discomfort, so it will be interesting to see whether the "after" shows any difference.

Sorry for all the waffle but I thought it might be helpful as we thought we'd totally excluded any gut problems with the scope results.

(ETA the Ronfields supplements are liquid and can be syringed if you dont want to add to feed.  Horses love them so they are very easy to give).


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## applecart14 (10 June 2016)

Damnation said:



			Oh for gods sake... again? Really?
		
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So I just shut up and take it when someone is accusing me of something I've not done or deliberately twisting my words to mean something quite the opposite to what I obviously meant?  Like you would accept that!!

I was trying to help her with a valid suggestion not asking for a re run of yesterdays events.  I  made it clear on two occasions that I know not of a horse with fibromyalgia but there is information available on the subject in magazine form and online.


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## Damnation (10 June 2016)

applecart14 said:



			So I just shut up and take it when someone is accusing me of something I've not done or deliberately twisting my words to mean something quite the opposite to what I obviously meant?  Like you would accept that!!

I was trying to help her with a valid suggestion not asking for a re run of yesterdays events.  I  made it clear on two occasions that I know not of a horse with fibromyalgia but there is information available on the subject in magazine form and online.
		
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How about you are both as bad as eachother and are doing nothing but wind eachother up. Because of this neither of you can do right for wrong in eachothers eyes. 

I am not the only one who is commented on this and is getting sick of the bickering. You are both adults, either sort it in an adult fashion or avoid eachother.

I have no problem with either of you, but I do have a problem with the constant bickering so jump out of my throat and sort yourselves out.


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## Leo Walker (10 June 2016)

Damnation said:



			How about you are both as bad as eachother and are doing nothing but wind eachother up. Because of this neither of you can do right for wrong in eachothers eyes. 

I am not the only one who is commented on this and is getting sick of the bickering. You are both adults, either sort it in an adult fashion or avoid eachother.

I have no problem with either of you, but I do have a problem with the constant bickering so jump out of my throat and sort yourselves out.
		
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This is a different poster that AC14 is bickering with today


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## Damnation (10 June 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			This is a different poster that AC14 is bickering with today
		
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I am sure I have seen her and Alex bickering previously too. If I am wrong I stand corrected. 

My point remains, I am absolutely sick to the back teeth of opening a thread that AC14 replies to and seeing yet another bickering match.

I don't know what AC14 has done to rub people up the wrong way as that is what it appears to be, and as I have said I have no problem with anyone on this forum, but we are supposed to be adults and this childishness just seems to be getting worse. Whether at this stage AC14 is being targetted or whatever remains to be seen, but it does seem that for whatever reason (and don't go playing the victim I am NOT blaming anyone AC14,) wherever she replies, people argue.

Now to come back to the topic, I have actually found an article on Fibro in horses (linked below) for you to read Alex however I do not think your horse's symptoms are as extreme as it seems to read in the below article.

http://www.vetcontact.com/en/art.php?a=694


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## HufflyPuffly (10 June 2016)

Damnation said:



			OP - When this happens is the area hot? Or did you recently wash the numnah/saddle pad? Is there any specific thing that you may have done that would cause maybe a slightly sore muscle, or sensative skin? Is it always the same place or always around her saddle, girth area? Does it happen after she has gotten sweaty?

Sooo many variables! If only they could talk? 

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No she can hot or cold, so warm after being worked and then a rug being put on or cool and having a saddle put on. It also doesn't follow on, as she can have pulled a face when being saddled or girthed but then not when a rug is put on.

Also a clarification of the rugging, it doesn't tend to be when it is put on but when the front straps are fastened, which led me to believe it could be the wither region? I'm also quite particular about putting rugs on and never pulling them forward against the hair as my oldie is very particular about this .

Cannot see a link to something which could have caused a sore muscle but will start a diary, (no faces this week so far ). We cannot quite link it to a certain point or spot as she doesn't react to us poking her, just either the saddle, girth (and I mean the girth touching her not always when its actually tightened) or rug going on. And finally I've not noticed after she's become sweaty.



Dry Rot said:



			OP, what is this horse's history?

We have a 5yo Highland gelding that has only just been backed because we experienced this sort of behaviour, but more extreme. Last year, the pony was sat on. We tried a couple of steps and he exploded (as much as a Highland does explode!). We started work again after the winter and all went well. Then tried to gently tighten the girth which he has tolerated before -- and another explosion!

This is a pony that can be caught, led, groomed, loaded, have it's feet lifted, etc. then suddenly takes a dislike to something it has accepted a couple of weeks before. This pony was off the hill where he was running in a herd of 70 until two, so we think it might be a fear reaction to being touched when memories of being attacked by a more dominant horse in the herd are reawakened, but don't really know. Very frustrating when progress seems to be good -- then suddenly isn't!
		
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History:
Bought coming up 7 years ago when she was 6, a little bargy on the ground at first but otherwise excellent ground manners. Under saddle she was/is explosive when overwhelmed by the atmosphere of a show ground but otherwise little issues apart from general schooling etc. Touchy issues I don't remember being aparant at first, so must have developed as we've had her, so perhaps for the last couple of years we've had this odd inconsistant reaction.

Before us she was on a big yard from being a youngster (bought from breeder as she wasn't going to make the height they wanted), as far as I know herd turnout but I think she was either in and worked or out and left.

She is also now the boss of the field, which does perhaps tie in with when the symptoms started?



Caramac71 said:



			We've got a mare who has reacted mildly to girth (she doesnt mind it being tightened when it's been done up loosely, its the initial doing up that results in face pulling).

Ours had many other problems and was eventually diagnosed last year with facet joint arthritis.  During the very lengthy diagnostics, we had her scoped and we also had her ovaries scanned, amongst other things.  Like yours, her scope was beautifully clear and vet ruled out hind gut ulcers on the basis that it is normal to see some degree of scarring in most horses but she had none.  Therefore they felt it was unlikely there was any gut problems.  Also like yours she lives out 24/7 with access to ad lib hay when the grass is sparse and isnt what you'd think of as an ulcers candidate at all.

We've been through lots of physio, chiro, rehab and she improved in many ways but has always been sensitive to saddle/girth/lunge roller, and occasionally rugs.

More recently we've changed to a different vet who offers acupuncture, and on her first visit she said she reacts very like an ulcers horse.  She was also seen by a barefoot trimmer as I wanted a second opinion on her feet, and he said the same thing about her.  He persuaded me to trial some supplements (Ulcerex Plus and Remount from Ronfields Nutrition) and also a very good probiotic.  I did the loading dose of everything and within 3 days she showed no signs of being girthy.  When we dropped down to maintenance and stopped the probiotic she became a bit sensitive again.  So we've upped the dosage of the supplements and started on the second pack of probiotics. She seems much happier again.

I dont think gut sensitivities are the root of her problems as we know with her there is more going on, but I definitely think the supplements/probiotics we are using are making a difference to her comfort.

The trimmer who suggested the supplements is doing gait analysis on her (before and after treatment).  The "before" is showing abnormal movement in her hind legs which obviously could well be related to her back problems, but he thinks it could be linked to gut discomfort, so it will be interesting to see whether the "after" shows any difference.

Sorry for all the waffle but I thought it might be helpful as we thought we'd totally excluded any gut problems with the scope results.

(ETA the Ronfields supplements are liquid and can be syringed if you dont want to add to feed.  Horses love them so they are very easy to give).
		
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Very very interesting thank you for typing all that out! She is moving and going well and certainly our dressage scores are going the right way (scored upto 66% at Medium this year), but I think gut discomfort shouldn't be ruled out and those supplements I will have a look into as it cannot hurt to try her on something really can it. Sorry this seems a short response for the effort you've put in to your reply .



Damnation said:



			Now to come back to the topic, I have actually found an article on Fibro in horses (linked below) for you to read Alex however I do not think your horse's symptoms are as extreme as it seems to read in the below article.

http://www.vetcontact.com/en/art.php?a=694

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This is the only study I could find, and why I said I didn't think it fitted, but was interested in what other information there might be since it was suggested as a possible issue.

Thanks everyone certainly some food for thought here and avenues to explore .


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## Pearlsasinger (10 June 2016)

I had a mare with severe food intolerances, before we realised the cause, she could be very sensitive to being touched although not all the time. Being sensitive to various foodstuffs myself, I know that the skin can feel as if it is being sandpapered/stuck with pins/burned.  If your horse feels like that and can't tell you, it is not surprising that no one can find the cause really.  The only way is to try an exclusion diet, I would stop all feed except hay/grass and keep a diary for at least 3 weeks.


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## FfionWinnie (10 June 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			This is a different poster that AC14 is bickering with today
		
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Quite. There's quite a long list of people that AC14 doesn't like and behaves in the same manner towards. 

Funny how the individuals she picks on are generally popular and/or kind and helpful members, it's not her tho, it's them &#128580;


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## HufflyPuffly (10 June 2016)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I had a mare with severe food intolerances, before we realised the cause, she could be very sensitive to being touched although not all the time. Being sensitive to various foodstuffs myself, I know that the skin can feel as if it is being sandpapered/stuck with pins/burned.  If your horse feels like that and can't tell you, it is not surprising that no one can find the cause really.  The only way is to try an exclusion diet, I would stop all feed except hay/grass and keep a diary for at least 3 weeks.
		
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I've been suspicious of a food allergy/ intolerance but as she's fed very little anyway not really looked into it more. However we can definitely do an exclusion trial, thank you. 



FfionWinnie said:



			Quite. There's quite a long list of people that AC14 doesn't like and behaves in the same manner towards. 

Funny how the individuals she picks on are generally popular and/or kind and helpful members, it's not her tho, it's them &#128580;
		
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Ooo does this mean I'm popular or kind . No in seriousness on this thread I think we just misunderstood each other, but as I do not want this completely derailed as there are some super helpful replies I think I can leave it there.


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## Pearlsasinger (13 June 2016)

AlexHyde said:



			I've been suspicious of a food allergy/ intolerance but as she's fed very little anyway not really looked into it more. However we can definitely do an exclusion trial, thank you. 


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I am really pleased to hear that, so many people say their horse only has a small amount of feed, so it can't possibly be an intolerance. Do keep us updated on how your horse responds.


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## FfionWinnie (15 June 2016)

As little as 250gr of linseed causes Daisy a problem so I agree excluding things is always worth doing. Had I not done that "just to see" we would still be good but not as good as we could be, with her. 

And I think you are kind, and the rest of your reply confirms that.


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## HufflyPuffly (15 June 2016)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I am really pleased to hear that, so many people say their horse only has a small amount of feed, so it can't possibly be an intolerance. Do keep us updated on how your horse responds.
		
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Sorry I managed to miss this!
So about a week of no hard feed and we've had no faces, now I think it may be a touch early to say for definite but an interesting start!



FfionWinnie said:



			As little as 250gr of linseed causes Daisy a problem so I agree excluding things is always worth doing. Had I not done that "just to see" we would still be good but not as good as we could be, with her. 

And I think you are kind, and the rest of your reply confirms that.
		
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Yes I remember you sharing her intolerance to linseed and this was part of her mini feed. Mind you the no feed hasn't stopped her general itchiness, but that could be the flies (or even her fatness I have a theory when she's a bit porky she gets itchier...). 

Bless you, i think it was just a bit of a misunderstanding on my part, the written word is hard to interpret sometimes.


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## fatpiggy (16 June 2016)

Keep a diary and write down EVERYTHING, not just when she comes into season.  Note the weather, what she was fed, any other unusual behaviour, did you spray extra fly spray on because they were really bad the evening before (quite likely in this humid weather).  What is her colouring?  My girl was chestnut and was extremely sensitive skinned to bites etc.


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## HufflyPuffly (16 June 2016)

fatpiggy said:



			Keep a diary and write down EVERYTHING, not just when she comes into season.  Note the weather, what she was fed, any other unusual behaviour, did you spray extra fly spray on because they were really bad the evening before (quite likely in this humid weather).  What is her colouring?  My girl was chestnut and was extremely sensitive skinned to bites etc.
		
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Would you do this when faces are pulled or just generally? Will have a word with mum as we share duties so will need her on board a bit more I think! She's black, but is quite sensitive to bites, we normally have her bug rug on but it's so warm we've left it off!


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## fatpiggy (16 June 2016)

AlexHyde said:



			Would you do this when faces are pulled or just generally? Will have a word with mum as we share duties so will need her on board a bit more I think! She's black, but is quite sensitive to bites, we normally have her bug rug on but it's so warm we've left it off!
		
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Yes, absolutely anything and everything.  My mare had epilepsy and thanks to the diary I realised that indeed her seizures were tied directly to her hormone cycle ( I had thought it was just a coincidence until one day she moved the start of her season due to a new mare arriving, and her seizure moved with it) and that the day before a seizure was due she would be even more crazy than usual, sometimes even aggressive to other horses, which was totally out of character.  A diary will help you to realise that ISN'T the cause of the problem as much as what is.


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## HufflyPuffly (16 June 2016)

Really interesting and seems worthwhile at least with your mare! Will speak with mum about doing it for Topaz, as she's as concerned about it as I am .


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## Pearlsasinger (17 June 2016)

Yes, we kept a diary to monitor the changes in her behaviour, when we had realised what was going on.


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## HufflyPuffly (17 June 2016)

Mum has agreed to do a detailed diary so hopefully we can pinpoint it to something, thanks everyone .


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