# PTS would you help?



## Welly (20 November 2013)

I read all the time about horse welfare charities being full to overflowing with horses and ponies that owners cant keep for various reasons. I have looked at the animals to be re-homed on the WHW website and as I write this, there are 5 animals capable of being ridden, the rest being too young, too old, or injured.  This made me think!  If you take out the young ones, nearly all the horses that these charities are taking in are perhaps ones that most readers of this forum would PTS. 

So why are they ending up with charities? Is it that owners cant or wont make the decision for themselves and if so why?  Is it too heart breaking for them, is it they dont know how to do it, or maybe it is just the cost.

I think there a need for a voluntary organization made up of caring people who would help people at this time. The Organisation could arrange for their horse to be PTS, be with them or their animals at this time and if funds could be raised, help with the cost. Would you help a person in this situation?  Alternatively, perhaps the animal charities should have a dedicated team to help and advise people who for whatever reason are in this position.  

I dont want to start another slanging match on this forum, I just want to start a debate about how we can help stop horses having to be rescued in the first place. Do you have another idea?
As someone famous recently said.       I throw that open.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (20 November 2013)

The BHS already do it-although they don't help with payment.


----------



## Goldenstar (20 November 2013)

When horses are taken from an owner and the owner is to be prosecuted the horse forms part of the case until the case is over the horse cannot be  PTS ( unless a vet deems there is an acute need to do so ) as the court may order its return to the owner so the RSPCA spend an arm and leg on the horse then say six months down the line the case comes to court and if the RSPCA win they are left with a horse who may many chronic things wrong with it by then they have spent a fortune the staff at the centre have nursed it and they do get attached as they nurse some very sick horses through this is a reason that they end up with lots of companions .
Also they certainly used to run waiting lists for people wanting horses so the sound ones do disappear fast.
There is no doult that rescues are full of horses that I would PTS if they belonged to me.
I am all for the BHS friend at the end scheme but think people should fund PTS them selves its not others peoples job to fund others to PTS which is the responsibility a knackerman or a hunt does not cost a lot of money .


----------



## Alec Swan (20 November 2013)

A good post Welly.  I've put my arguments,  ad-nausium,  so there seems little point in repeating myself!  I await the replies of others,  with interest.

You've made some positive and worthwhile suggestions,  and in answer to your questions,  and because I'm no stranger to the routine of slaughter,  so all my answers are in the affirmative.  I have in the past and would always in the future,  assist anyone who was reasonably local.

Alec.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (20 November 2013)

I would gladly help either by being there, making the phone calls, dealing with vet/knackerman etc. I would not and could not help financially, I have my own animals to think of. I think the BHS Friends at the End scheme is admirable-should maybe be better advertised though!


----------



## Maesfen (20 November 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			A good post Welly.  I've put my arguments,  ad-nausium,  so there seems little point in repeating myself!  I await the replies of others,  with interest.

You've made some positive and worthwhile suggestions,  and in answer to your questions,  and because I'm no stranger to the routine of slaughter,  so all my answers are in the affirmative.  I have in the past and would always in the future,  assist anyone who was reasonably local.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Me too.  I'm a quality of life person and would call time on anything that did not have that option, I'm certainly not someone that would try to keep at any cost as some do, especially the charities; they seem to think they have failed if they don't regardless of the cost to that horse and the amount they spend on one could have meant a few more could have been helped.


----------



## hairycob (20 November 2013)

One of the head honchos at Redwings says that the advice he always gives people asking about buying their first horse is put £800 in an out of the way account & leave it there. You can plan to use hunt etc but if your horse colics at 3am / breaks a leg on a hunt day etc you may have no choice but injection & cremation.
The BHS scheme is admirable & have recommended it to a couple of people but I suspect that if there was help in paying there will always be people who can afford it prepared to scam the system. I would help a friend or fellow livery with the practicalities & if I didn't work full time would probably look at getting involved in the BHS scheme.


----------



## hairycob (20 November 2013)

The other thing he said was that if they didn't go all the way to try & save the horses they took in a large proportion of the donations would dry up. I guess in that respect they are caught betwen a rock & a hard place & I have sympathy with their actions even where I would take the pts decision for my own horse.


----------



## Lynsey&Smartie (20 November 2013)

My understanding is that most big charities are not taking in private horses from people at the moment but only taking welfare cases so for the horses listed on these websites I don't think they in particular will be healthy horses who are just old/lame and have been dumped on a charity but ones who have been neglected or abused, in these cases I imagine it is difficult at the outset to know whether with decent care these horses will recover enough to have a useful life or not. 

For horses who are healthy enough to make a good companion without lots of special care or medication I personally don't see anything wrong with the charities trying to rehome these horses if possible especially the youngsters or an older horse who doesn't have any major medical issues, for the ones who are lame and who will not recover or need medication then I think that it would probably be sensible to consider having these PTS to make room for others who need help.


----------



## Orangehorse (20 November 2013)

The BHS Welfare Officers will talk things through with the owners.  We had a talk once and the officer said he often gets calls from someone with, e.g. a 23 year old pony with sweetich and laminitis and would someone give it a good home and he usually tries to persuade them to PTS.  Often it is just someone "in authority" to make the decision and take the responsibility from the owner.  It is a hard thing to condem an animal to death (just had to do it).  I agree about some of the ponies in charities, but there is a role for some of them.

It isn't that expensive, under £200 for a pony.


----------



## jrp204 (20 November 2013)

The ultimate responsibility of owning any animal is taking that last decision, unfortunately too many people won't do it and will pass the problem on to someone else. It irritates the hell out of me when you see ads for unrideable/aged animals being sold or given away because the owner won't do the right thing.
And yes, I would help.


----------



## Rollin (20 November 2013)

I have had this debate on another forum.  An English lady returning to the UK, is trying to rehome an aged French Trotter.  Like ex-track TB's they get thrown away in their thousands.  If she rehomes this horse it will sooner or later finish up in an auction for the knacker.

She should do the decent thing and have the horse pts.

I would never rehome an old horse.

By the way Welly, I understand that some pure CB's went for slaughter not long ago.


----------



## Nudibranch (20 November 2013)

Rollin why did the CB's go to slaughter?


----------



## Hairy Old Cob (20 November 2013)

There are far too many Old infirm neglected horses in the country, I think it is down to Irresponsible breeding from some ignorant ill informed individuals the traveling community who no longer travel and rely on their horses. Owners who wont face up to their resposibility of having old or dangerous horses put to sleep,"just pass the problem on", and the fact that in general horses are now more regarded as pets than working animals and people keep them hanging on to the bitter end seeming to think it kinder to have dragged out of the mud on the end of the Knackermans winch wire rather than having them PTS with Dignity at an earlier date.
In all honesty how many horses languishing in well meaning charities and dubious rescue centres are only treading mud before their inevitable end, and it would be far kinder for them to be PTS.
I am not a callous uncaring person it is because I care so much I have these views we are looking at horrendous longrange forcast for the winter things are not going to improve.


----------



## Alec Swan (20 November 2013)

H_O_C,  what an incisive and well reasoned post.  When I'm running the Country,  you'll be in charge of Defra.  I mean it too! 

Alec.


----------



## Maesfen (20 November 2013)

Hairy Old Cob said:



			There are far too many Old infirm neglected horses in the country, I think it is down to Irresponsible breeding from some ignorant ill informed individuals the traveling community who no longer travel and rely on their horses. Owners who wont face up to their resposibility of having old or dangerous horses put to sleep,"just pass the problem on", and the fact that in general horses are now more regarded as pets than working animals and people keep them hanging on to the bitter end seeming to think it kinder to have dragged out of the mud on the end of the Knackermans winch wire rather than having them PTS with Dignity at an earlier date.
In all honesty how many horses languishing in well meaning charities and dubious rescue centres are only treading mud before their inevitable end, and it would be far kinder for them to be PTS.
I am not a callous uncaring person it is because I care so much I have these views we are looking at horrendous longrange forcast for the winter things are not going to improve.
		
Click to expand...

I've been singing in your choir off the same hymn sheet for some time; nice to have some sensible company at last.


----------



## Cortez (20 November 2013)

Over here (Ireland) we are discussing a cull in the form of a slaughter premium to encourage people to reduce the numbers. This should have been done a long time ago IMO.


----------



## Maesfen (20 November 2013)

Quite agree Cortez, there should be an amnesty type thing same as they do with castrations and certainly all those that are fly grazing should be done, no excuses IMO.


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (20 November 2013)

Some owners will only contact the welfare charities as a last resport, they then dont have funds left to PTS but perhaps rely on good natured friends for livery bill/fodder.
They are then between a rock and a hard place - they cannot afford to keep animal - cannot afford to transport to Potters (which is currently a 6-7 week wait).

Those cash strapped cannot afford to keep for the time till they can hire transport to take said equine to slaughter, nor then afford the transport.

Also, now that vets are getting everyone to sign section 9 of the passports, the animals can no longer be taken for a fee paid tothe owner -the owner has to now pay for disposal costs!!

So - ideas??

The Blue cross will help for small animals, who could be approached for equines?


----------



## Hippona (20 November 2013)

Hairy Old Cob said:



			There are far too many Old infirm neglected horses in the country, I think it is down to Irresponsible breeding from some ignorant ill informed individuals the traveling community who no longer travel and rely on their horses. Owners who wont face up to their resposibility of having old or dangerous horses put to sleep,"just pass the problem on", and the fact that in general horses are now more regarded as pets than working animals and people keep them hanging on to the bitter end seeming to think it kinder to have dragged out of the mud on the end of the Knackermans winch wire rather than having them PTS with Dignity at an earlier date.
In all honesty how many horses languishing in well meaning charities and dubious rescue centres are only treading mud before their inevitable end, and it would be far kinder for them to be PTS.
I am not a callous uncaring person it is because I care so much I have these views we are looking at horrendous longrange forcast for the winter things are not going to improve.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree 100%&#8230;


----------



## MillyMoomie (21 November 2013)

Most responsible charities will pay for a equine to be PTS and disposed of. Provided the owner is genuine, and can provide proof of no financial means.

I organised one just last week.


----------



## babymare (22 November 2013)

I am a beliver in quality of life and will and have take responsibiliy of making that decision But having worked in a charity your first thoughts when that ramp gies down isnt thats aged  lets pts to sleep.your first thoughts are to get that poor neglected soul comfy. yes sometimes they maybe to far gone and to pts is only option but if not you give them a chance. Think back a couple of years to the rescue on here of Spud & carrot.2 aged horses in horrific condition. Barnsby rest home fought to help those horses  and against odds they survived and went on to enjoy a couple of years of love and kindness before being pts with dignity. was barnsby wrong not to pts straight away? Yes you can argue they were but personally i think not and i bet spud &carrot would agree to


----------



## Amaranth99 (22 November 2013)

I have something of a quandary really. I have a nearly 40 year old Pony that is owned by a charity and has lived with us for nearly 20 years. Both my daughters learned to ride on him and he was a good teacher of "Concentrate or bear the consequences". Last year I was working away and he got terrible mud fever and the yard, the Vet and my daughter struggled to get him through it and he made it to the Spring looking like a Hat rack but with a real love for life and the ladies that was impossible to ignore. All year I have said that as soon as he is miserable and not galloping about making a nusiance of himself I would let him go but here we are in November and he's moved yards and is now in stabled livery and he's rude, manner-less, wees everywhere thinks he's Casanova, has soft food only and still properly enjoys himself. We have another pony that we gave to someone on the promise of a forever home, he's 14.3, 16yrs old, too fine to put anyone over 8stone on and beautiful but had no job with us hence his move to someone who has a few horses to teach local youngsters to ride and carefor and do some showing with.
Apparently he's been bolting and the lady want s to pass him onto someone else. My quandary is that if my old pony was pts then I could have the other pony back and see how bad he really is OR I could insist that her be PTS by this Lady who has no further want of him OR I could put them both down and take on something that could potentially do a job with us.
What would you do?


----------



## Spook (22 November 2013)

A quandary indeed Amaranth99, and one that many other people are having. Many have their old retired or ill/permanently lame horses about the place and would dearly like to be able to afford a useful horse........  rideable aswell. There is so much peer /charity/vet pressure to keep these animals going. The pony owned by the charity could be returned to them provided it is still in business (a friend had one under similar circumstances but the charity had disbanded so she had her pts at home..... the pony was 46years old) Obviously the other pony looks as if it is your responsibility unless there was some sort of written agreement or it has been transferred into the other persons ownership....... personally I'd be asking her to have him pts unless you really want him back. Or if needs must I'd put them both down.

In answer to the original post, yes we do support people who ask us to help or been there for the horses at the last.


----------



## Amaranth99 (26 November 2013)

Thank you


----------



## applecart14 (26 November 2013)

If I could afford to retire a horse I could no longer ride and support a new horse then I would but most people's salary doesn't stretch that far.

There ar a lot of horses that end up having a very useful purposeful and happy life at the blood bank, the only criteria it would seem is that the animal isn't a complete loop case and it can live drug free and be of the type of build (to allow the correct volume of blood to be collected).

Most people rule out blood banks - I think its the biggest urban myth in the horse world.  I think people think their horses will be strapped down and forced to give pints of blood.  Apparently the opposite is true and horses practically skip in to the sessions to give blood (once every two months I believe) as they get a token feed and a bit of fuss of a human.

The horses live out 24/7 in the summer and from around Oct to April are housed in huge barns with ad lib hay.  They are able to develop healthy relationships in a herd environment and live as close to nature as is possible to live i.e. the ideal life a horse would want.

Shame more people don't agree and there aren't more centres to give this fantastic opportunity and retirement.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (26 November 2013)

the bloodbank won't suit all horses though Applecart. Its not a bad life at all but the ones I know, the horses are in very big herds (in the region of 70 mares/geldings) and barn kept, deep litter throughout the winter. Ones that don't fit in/get bullied/sick or don't keep condition easily don't last long although I agree the actual blood taking is insignificant in an animal that size. to my knowledge they are bled fortnightly (can be less int he summer when PCV goes up). 
They are also businesses and those horses that are no longer any use are sent to the abattoir. Again, thats not so bad either depending on you POV but people shouldn't be given the idea that its all meadows and flowers and will last forever. They are farmed for their blood for blood products and some will be happy with that and some won't.


----------



## bonny (26 November 2013)

applecart14 said:



			If I could afford to retire a horse I could no longer ride and support a new horse then I would but most people's salary doesn't stretch that far.

There ar a lot of horses that end up having a very useful purposeful and happy life at the blood bank, the only criteria it would seem is that the animal isn't a complete loop case and it can live drug free and be of the type of build (to allow the correct volume of blood to be collected).

Most people rule out blood banks - I think its the biggest urban myth in the horse world.  I think people think their horses will be strapped down and forced to give pints of blood.  Apparently the opposite is true and horses practically skip in to the sessions to give blood (once every two months I believe) as they get a token feed and a bit of fuss of a human.

The horses live out 24/7 in the summer and from around Oct to April are housed in huge barns with ad lib hay.  They are able to develop healthy relationships in a herd environment and live as close to nature as is possible to live i.e. the ideal life a horse would want.

Shame more people don't agree and there aren't more centres to give this fantastic opportunity and retirement.
		
Click to expand...

It's hardly an answer to the thousands of unwanted horses in this country, they take only a small number each year and only up to the age of 15 when they are slaughtered. It's also not the paradise for horses that you seem to think it is and is an irrelevance in this debate.


----------



## Double_choc_lab (26 November 2013)

Alec I so agree with you.  I'm sure I've said before that you should run the country!!!  Excuse the pun but so many more people should be prepared to "bite the bullet" and be prepared to make that awful decision.  If you are not prepared to make the ultimate decision then perhaps ownership is not an option.  I have held animals for others and believe that "going" with at least a known human with them is far more settling for an animal than as someone said "being winched through the mud".  Quality over quantity of life anyday.


----------



## sarahann1 (26 November 2013)

My old lads are with me until they start showing signs of being unhappy, the day the look depressed will be the day I pick up the phone and truth be told I'm dreading it. I'm very lucky to have a great vet who is very good when it comes to this type of situation and I'd certainly value the help of someone experienced just to be around. I hope in turn I would be able to help someone else, but since I've never held one myself, I have no idea how I'd react.

I frequently read FB posts of horses for sale and think to myself "he/she would be better off being PTS" too many elderly/damaged horses being passed from piller to post. Only today I saw a wee 5yr old, bonny thing but, and I quote "Free to very good home I desperately want to keep this girl but I just cant manage anymore. She walks like she's poo'd herself, I think its possibly stringholt, the vet isnt sure" sorry, but WHY would you pass on this mare? It took me all my restraint not to say "put her to sleep".


----------



## Merrick (30 November 2013)

My husband was in the unfortunate position of being first on the scene after a neighbours mare (with foal at foot) slipped and broke her back in the field adjoining ours last year. In fact she would have drowned had he not dealt with the situation as her head was in a puddle and she was struggling to keep her head out of the water. The owner was away and we managed to contact him as my hubby phoned me at work and we got the vet. It was a long story that wasn't particularly pleasant but eventually she was PTS while my husband stroke her... Then we got the bill which was £400 because we had called the vet and collection by the local knackerman was another £150 (cash)! We struggled to get the (absent) owner to pay up and although our vet was understanding they said legally they could pursue the costs at court if necessary! 
Hubby's response ( having sat in 12 inches of water for hours holding the mare while it's desperate foal tried to suckle) was " and what the ******* was I supposed to do, leave her to drown and have that on my conscience?"
Personally I have had to have 4 horses and ponies PTS and one died of colic too and £200 has never covered it- the first was in 1986!
Only one was planned, that was the cheapest but still £300 to have her buried by a local farmer!


----------



## Spook (2 December 2013)

Here in Aberdeenshire the knackery is about £200 (that was what we paid in the Spring of 2013) for a horse and less for a pony. It's just a little cheaper than it was, there is a new Fallen stock/ knackery business and the competition seems to be working the price down a tad.


----------



## Spook (2 December 2013)

And I still think it's time the "charities" got on board with a subsidised system of some sort in the areas where the prices are extortionate. Here we have an efficient and sympathetic company who do not charge the earth, we are very fortunate.


----------



## windand rain (2 December 2013)

Hairy Old Cob said:



			There are far too many Old infirm neglected horses in the country, I think it is down to Irresponsible breeding from some ignorant ill informed individuals the traveling community who no longer travel and rely on their horses. Owners who wont face up to their resposibility of having old or dangerous horses put to sleep,"just pass the problem on", and the fact that in general horses are now more regarded as pets than working animals and people keep them hanging on to the bitter end seeming to think it kinder to have dragged out of the mud on the end of the Knackermans winch wire rather than having them PTS with Dignity at an earlier date.
In all honesty how many horses languishing in well meaning charities and dubious rescue centres are only treading mud before their inevitable end, and it would be far kinder for them to be PTS.
I am not a callous uncaring person it is because I care so much I have these views we are looking at horrendous longrange forcast for the winter things are not going to improve.
		
Click to expand...

wonderful well thought out post I too am a quality over quantity person and would love to see these poor beasts put out of the misery they live including some from some pretty famous welfare organisations I cannot go a view at open days anymore nor will I financially support them there are misery ridden horses standing knee deep in mud in winter and horses that have been severely injured in accidents that would have been far better not to suffer the recovery Maybe it is just me but perhaps it is the general publics do good attitude and teir horrror at the thought of these old and sick horses reaching a peaceful end that makes these rescues carry on after all donations would likely fall if Joe Public thought their money was going to buy PTS options for the many.
It may only be under  200pounds to have a pony dealt with but if you hit hard times 200 is a huge sum of money and the loss of income can be very rapid in todays economic climate. 200 could buy a lot of tins of beans and bread for a hungry child, and could provide a respite for the poor ponies until they can be rehomed or shot so there are certain circumstances when charities could step in and let these animals go with dignity before they starve to death or are dumped somewhere to be injured or  worse


----------



## Aarrghimpossiblepony (10 December 2013)

babymare said:



			I am a beliver in quality of life and will and have take responsibiliy of making that decision *But having worked in a charity your first thoughts when that ramp gies down isnt thats aged  lets pts to sleep.your first thoughts are to get that poor neglected soul comfy. yes sometimes they maybe to far gone and to pts is only option but if not you give them a chance.* Think back a couple of years to the rescue on here of Spud & carrot.2 aged horses in horrific condition. Barnsby rest home fought to help those horses  and against odds they survived and went on to enjoy a couple of years of love and kindness before being pts with dignity. was barnsby wrong not to pts straight away? Yes you can argue they were but personally i think not and i bet spud &carrot would agree to 

Click to expand...

I'm afraid I don't agree with this attitude at all.

Of course the first thought should be to stop the suffering. But having made them "comfy" why carry on for days, months, years?
Care for them, relieve the immediate suffering and then PTS.

Hand on heart, what are you giving them a chance of if they are aged and infirm?

I don't think "Spud" and "Carrot" would have the faintest idea of what you are talking about. They wouldn't know and they wouldn't understand, it's beyond the capacity of a horse.


----------



## Merrick (10 December 2013)

I too am very dubious about some welfare organisations. In fact I am sure some "registered charities" are that purely for dubious financial gain. If that sounds harsh I can back up my claim by the way!


----------



## ester (10 December 2013)

I do wonder if some of the money spent by charities on castration would be better spent on PTS of some of the poorer specimens which are unlikely to lead any sort of useful life (and hence have a rather dodgy future). 

I wouldn't send a horse to the blood bank either - and it certainly isn't a solution to the thousands of unwanteds. 

It was great to see carrot and spud improve and suspect they enjoyed their last couple of years, I do think we perhaps have to consider how much that makes us feel good rather than them though, I'm really not sure on that.


----------



## MissChaos (10 December 2013)

ester said:



			I do wonder if some of the money spent by charities on castration would be better spent on PTS of some of the poorer specimens which are unlikely to lead any sort of useful life (and hence have a rather dodgy future).
		
Click to expand...

But in a financial climate where unfortunately nobody can do everything they'd like to (i.e. tackle both PTS and castration), surely it's marginally better to try to stem the problem - so you're not just in future repeating quite such an extensive PTS cycle of animals who wouldn't have found their sorry way into the world had the sire not been done?


----------



## Amaranth99 (22 July 2015)

I answered this thread 3 years ago.....The old Pony is now 43, sound, toothless and senile. Every Autumn we look at him and wonder how we are going to keep him fat enough to go through the winter but somehow we still do. He still chases the girls and protects his herd and is very rude to lead as he is spoiled but he seems very happy and lively and he will never suffer.
(The Lady that had the other Pony stopped replying to my emails and letters and I sadly have lost touch. I assume this is because she did indeed have him put down but I have no real idea)


----------



## JillA (22 July 2015)

When I was more actively running a rescue I would only take in those who had a reasonable chance of being rehomed, and there aren't many people looking for companion ponies. Take too many and they "bed block" or you end up with too many to care for properly - I often advised owners that their best course of action was PTS, whether they heeded it or not I couldn't say. 
The main charities are in a difficult position, they rely on public donations and the great British public are unlikely to donate to organisations that "kill horses".


----------



## Roasted Chestnuts (22 July 2015)

Knackerman round here costs £210 for bullet and removal. Quick easy and relatively painless, not sure how much the huntsman is.

I am another who believes that horses seized who are never going to recover should have pictures taken from all angles and then PTS, also those trying to sell or give older horses and ponies away annoy me, to the point you actually want to get in their face and scream at them to do the right thing and not be a coward.

I have an older horse he's 24 and if I couldn't care for him then he would be kindly PTS at the farm or off with the huntsman and that would be it. I wouldn't pass him on regardless of the fact he's still rideable.


----------



## ILuvCowparsely (22 July 2015)

Welly said:



			So why are they ending up with charities? Is it that owners cant or wont make the decision for themselves and if so why?  Is it too heart breaking for them, is it they dont know how to do it, or maybe it is just the cost.
.
		
Click to expand...


As disgussed before - a lot of the elderly ones are ones that have been gifted in in wills, or ones they have had come in due to welfare cases.


----------



## Merrick (22 July 2015)

As my vet very wisely reminds people...
"Better a month too early than a day too late."
Worth remembering!


----------



## fatpiggy (23 July 2015)

Merrick said:



			As my vet very wisely reminds people...
"Better a month too early than a day too late."
Worth remembering!
		
Click to expand...

I chose to have my rising 30 year old PTS nearly 3 years ago.  Her arthritis was becoming a problem in many ways. She had enjoyed 7 years of nice retirement and lots of attention from me.  She was happy enough but it wasn't good enough for me any more and I particularly didn't want her going into yet another cold, muddy, dismal winter. The vet who came on the day thanked me.


----------



## hackneylass2 (25 July 2015)

There's an organisation in the US who do this, its a subsidised euthanasia service with helpers there to be with the owners. Its done by injection and as far as I can see its been popular.


----------



## Crugeran Celt (25 July 2015)

I really don't understant how elderly horses end up at these centres as surely an owners last responsibility is to have a horse humanely PTS. It makes me so sad that anyone who keeps a horse thinks it's ok to just pass on an old animal for someone else to take on the responsibility.  I find it hard to believe that so many owners can't afford to do the right thing by their horses.  You see so many horses for sale well into their 20's claiming they are still active and ' young at heart', makes me want to cry that they are prepared to pass on a horse who should be given the best care in their old age.


----------



## honetpot (25 July 2015)

I have two that I will probably PTS at the end of August, they are not particularly old but they have been brood mare machines through out their lives, one in particular, and the wear and tear on their bodies is catching up with them. It makes me so sad when they come trotting up  to that as looking at them superficially they look so well, but I knew I would have to do this when I took them on.
  I have been though this every year for the last four years, I had a field full of elderly out grown childrens pony and horses, the local hunt charges £130 and they are shot in their own field.
  I think in general we have become totally detached from the process of death in animals and humans, no one wants to think of the realities of animal ownership when they buy their animal, that why there are so many unwanted dogs, cats, an now horses. Its always someone else's problem and how lovely if a charity gets to pay for it.
   My solution is that horse passports should be far more expensive, they should have to be completed before weaning and the cost used to run a data base, which is enforced. Money from the fee should be put fund to subsidise fallen stock companies, they like the hunt are far cheaper than the vets and there should be readily available information on how to call them out on every council web site.


----------



## Alec Swan (25 July 2015)

A good post honetpot,  though what should happen and what will happen may not be the same.  With charities and equine welfare societies,  for them to advise what many know to be right,  simply won't happen.  They do after all have their own well-beings to consider!  Despite their fine words and proclamations,  the welfare of the horse is rarely their rational.

We also need to reinstate an ethical equine slaughter system and give the animal an end value.  With such an end value,  then both those who can't justify the end disposal cost,  and those who currently re-home will have a realistic disposal system.  The problem with that is that it will need the support of the larger welfare groups,  and that isn't about to happen,  because put simply,  no suffering horses means no wealthy charities.

Alec.


----------



## Welly (25 July 2015)

This is a very sad subject for us as this week we have just said goodbye to my sisters horse.  We use a company called Peake in Cornwall the total cost was £138.  So it's not the cost down here. I think it's just that owners don't want to make the decision for them selves.


----------



## Pigeon (25 July 2015)

I saw a 26yo being advertised on pre-loved. It's sickening really.


----------



## Crugeran Celt (26 July 2015)

I don't understand how an owner can't face that final decision,  if it is best for the horse then it's the last kindness you show to your animal. I have an elderly mare that I bred and as soon as her quality of life is not good I will have no problem with PTS. Obviously I will be sad and shed many tears but I will know that I have done the best for her. That is the least our faithful old horses deserve. Everyone who owns a horse should have enough money put aside to be able to do this last thing for their horse.


----------



## hackneylass2 (27 July 2015)

In reply to Alec's post.

With the amount of 'coloured cob type ponies' being bred and largely being the type seen in recent rescues/ siezures  and low end online sales, do you not think that giving equines an 'end' value would just cause these 'breeders' to proliferate? I don't think it would bode well for equine welfare in the long term....especially with the live export rules being on stony ground. After all, I don't suppose that many genuine horse lovers would send their horse live to an abbatoir.  Plus the fact that this could open up a route for more abbatoirs the likes of Red Lion to open up and cash in. The government is clearly not interested in welfare before and at slaughter as the Red Lion  incident proved.


----------



## Alec Swan (27 July 2015)

hackneylass,

I accept that you've raised interesting points,  but No,  I don't think that it would actively encourage breeding.  For a horse to sell in to an abattoir for £3-400 and for it to be kept for probably 3 years,  and considering the added costs of the parent stock,  then the profit and loss aspect would lean heavily towards a financial failure.  I do though agree that the current system also cannot be considered as profitable,  so I'm not really sure of the answer,  except that it would provide a workable response to the current state of affairs.

Here in the UK we tend to find the idea of horses going to slaughter to be distasteful,  I agree but with a resurgence in a properly monitored and regulated abattoir system,  then I think that many who currently view the only alternative to be the likes of the Red Lion premises,  would have their doubts and fears allayed.  I'd suggest that with the sorry end to the lives of many horses being that they end up in poorly run and unsuitable businesses such as the Red Lion,  or possibly worse in that they end up in equally unsuitable 'rescue' centres,  then that is currently the only alternative to the continuing production of horses,  and with no market for them,  alive or dead.

I remain of the opinion that with correctly run businesses,  which are licensed and monitored,  so it's the only logical answer.  The parallel could be the disposal system of our own household rubbish which we mostly have collected on a weekly basis,  and were there no such disposal system,  then the build up of what we discard would be just the same as it is with our equines.  Our horses are entitled to a humane end,  and despite the clamour that 'education' is the answer,  it's not worked yet,  and I very much doubt that it will ever solve the problem.

One thing's for certain,  there's no clear fits-all answer! 

Alec.


----------



## Penny Less (27 July 2015)

This is where the eating horsemeat debate comes in doesn't it? Not many cows,pigs etc end up neglected and suffering because they are not pets and they are bred as food.  Are horses still send abroad live for meat, cant remember. Don't advocate this of course. However, the British people are never realistically going to eat horsemeat, same as most don't eat rabbit.

As an aside, Would any of you take on an old horse that the owners wont pts and pay for it to be done ?  Ive often wondered if I would if put In the position of seeing an animal that really needs to be pts


----------



## Alec Swan (27 July 2015)

Penny Less,

no one in their right minds would believe that the British public could be educated to eating horse meat,  I agree!  Just as when rabbits formed a large part of the staple diet of the working classes,  and between the two great wars,  we no longer seem to have much of a taste for it!  Even the Continentals are experiencing a taste-shift and horse meat is no longer as popular as it once was.  No,  the market for horse meat would be for the pet meat trade,  and though of a lesser value per kilo than our traditional meats,  there would still be a ready market and one which could grow.

As to your aside,  I once bought a broken down old TB mare from some domiciled travellers for £100,  took her home gave her one night of comfort and called the knackerman the next morning.  That was in the days when there was a market for horse meat,  she left me dead,  and at no cost.

Alec.


----------



## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (27 July 2015)

I'm with Alec........... the main problem being all too frequently where sentimentality stands in the way of compassion.


----------



## honetpot (27 July 2015)

The economics of breeding horses for meat to not stack up, and certainly not for most horses that are already here. They have to have traceable medicine history, so he ones dumped are out, and any pet equine that had bute.
  On the continent they use heavy breeds for meat, like Ardennes, with a large muscles mass, they have larger amounts of large available grazing, its no coincidence that most of our native breeds are under 14.2, are slow maturing, and developed to survive on poor grazing because we have little available spare land. In meat terms they are just about as productive as native breed of sheep that are kept, but will need more feed, unless you want further welfare issues. Cattle and dairy farmers are struggling because of high costs and their animals have been selected for fast growth and meat/milk production.
  Breeding is be a privilege and not a right and certainly not done on a whim, when you can buy one or even three colt foals for £20, there is something seriously wrong. Slaughtering a sheep cost about £15, because they have volume and there is a market, it would take decades to get a viable market for horsemeat even it was economic.


----------



## Alec Swan (27 July 2015)

Penny Less said:



			.. Not many cows,pigs etc end up neglected and suffering because they are not pets and they are bred as food.  ..
		
Click to expand...

That's a good point,  but there's further reasoning!  The reason why our meat producing livestock are 'generally' kept looking well,  is for the reasons of economics.  No abattoir wants thin animals.  It would follow that were horses to be considered for their meat value,  then better care would be taken of them,  stands to reason!



honetpot said:



			.. . They have to have traceable medicine history, so he ones dumped are out, and any pet equine that had bute.
 ..
  Breeding is be a privilege and not a right and certainly not done on a whim, .. .
		
Click to expand...

I don't have a recently issued equine passport in front of me,  but from memory,  they state that horses which have been 'signed off' cannot go in to the human food chain.  Does it say that they can't be commercially slaughtered to prevent them from entering the animal-feed food chain?

I'm sorry to tell you that the breeding of horses IS a right.

Alec.


----------



## Ambers mum (27 July 2015)

jrp204 said:



			The ultimate responsibility of owning any animal is taking that last decision, unfortunately too many people won't do it and will pass the problem on to someone else. It irritates the hell out of me when you see ads for unrideable/aged animals being sold or given away because the owner won't do the right thing.
And yes, I would help.
		
Click to expand...

I agree.  My horses and ponies are with me for life but if the signs are there that they no longer have a comfortable standard of living then I am brave enough to make the decision, I won't say its easy but I would rather make the decision than pass them onto some one else. I have had to make this decision three times in the past 3 years and it never gets easier but I feel better for not making them suffer and knowing I gave them a good life xx


----------



## hackneylass2 (28 July 2015)

Alec.  I note your points but I feel that the main culprits currently breeding these low value animals largely don't medicate an or pay much for their pasturing.  They will see money at the end of it and if they only got £100 for an underweight animal its better for them having a definite buyer than paying for online adverts and such.

As far as I know passports only keep horses out of the human food chain, but I stand to be corrected on that.  As far as petfood is concerened, the Association of British Petfood Manufacturers which 90% of manufacturers belong to do not use equine meat or derivatives at all. and all meat has to be passed for human consumption before it is used, so thats a huge chunk of potential buyers out of the equation.  As for meat animals being well kept, well yes, because there is profit at the end of it and regulations to adhere to that we just dont have for horses in the UK.  Also, horses and ponies here don't have the genetic makeup that our traditional meat animals have, they don't mature fast enough or have enough muscle mass to be profitable.


----------



## honetpot (28 July 2015)

'Breeding is be a privilege and not a right'
  Yes Alex, at the moment its is a right, and everyone seems to have had a go at it and we are reaping the consequences, do you not think there should be some control on the breeding on these often low value animals? The TB people have more to lose in PR and have are trying to get rid of 'wastage' ,I would imagine a lot go for humane consumption as they have a medical history that is traceable and are relatively young. There is a company in Essex I think that recycles in to pet food, they sell it under their own brand, but the majority of the pet owners would balk at feeding food that was unfit for human consumption.
The government brought out schemes to get rid of the over supply of old cars, people used to dump them at the side of the road when the scrap price was low, so councils subsidised removal. There needs to a two way approach, stop people breeding just because they can and get a scheme in place so its easier for people to have them disposed of and lots of education


----------



## MagicMelon (28 July 2015)

jrp204 said:



			The ultimate responsibility of owning any animal is taking that last decision, unfortunately too many people won't do it and will pass the problem on to someone else. It irritates the hell out of me when you see ads for unrideable/aged animals being sold or given away because the owner won't do the right thing.
And yes, I would help.
		
Click to expand...

You mention you don't like "unrideable" horses being sold, why?  Unrideable horses can have a perfectly good use as a companion (where often shetlands are NOT the most suitable companion to say a large horse who has totally different grazing needs etc.). I loaned out my big 17yo warmblood - unrideable except for a gentle hack due to him being mechanically lame yet a very happy, bright horse so I wouldn't consider PTS even though he is now coming back to me and financially it's not ideal (I'm having to rent extra land as my own isn't enough etc.) but I will look after him no matter what as I owe it to him to give him a good retirement. 3 of mine are over the age of 17 now so are effectively field ornaments and will be with me to the end of their days, no they have no 'use' as such and its a strain having them but I will only PTS when they shows signs of being unhappy. IMO I have no right to end the life of an animal just because it doesnt have a job anymore or because of my own circumstances etc. There's two sides IMO - those who PTS perfectly happy horses just because they think they're the only ones who can look after them so refuse to even try rehoming (seemingly they think all other horsey people are nasty) and those who don't PTS when they absolutely should due to the horses ill health. 

I think most of the horses that tend to end up in charities are often taken in as rescue cases from people who simply shouldn't be allowed near any animal and often from people who die and haven't left instructions what to do with them in their will?  With regard to over-breeding, totally believe that is a massive massive issue that needs to be dealt with with education / higher costs (to put off the low end ones out for a quick buck).


----------



## hackneylass2 (29 July 2015)

I still say that the return of Stallion Licences would be invaluable.  Before I'm jumped on I don't mean that stallions would have to be graded ...just a licence that unites stallion with owner like the dog licences were.  But then, there's no money available to police this and 1000 other things that need policing here at the moment, and the penalties for breaking many laws are laughably soft!

I would never ever feed anything to my pets that was not passed for for human consumption, and as honetpot said, neither would most  people so yes, the pet food market is largely out.  

Taking a view that is against my general principles, I do think that at this moment in time, the ability of councils to sieze fly-grazed and dumped animals and dispose of as they see fit is a good way of reducing the coloured cob type waifs, in fact I can see the breeders of these unfortunates actively dumping them 'en masse' anyway as the legitimate routes for these animals dry up.  I do however. fear for the future welfare of horses if the live export ban is lifted, which I think, is under review.  I also think that how councils dispose of these animals should be looked at to ensure that the horses and ponies do not end up at some under the radar slaughterhouse. Potters would not be an option for any of these poor creatures as I guess they won't come with a handy passport!


----------



## Red-1 (30 July 2015)

I will put a new one out there....

Last year I considered running a business whereby for owners who could not face the practicalities of PTS could send me their horse for a month of pampering, followed by a PTS at my home. 

On the face of it there is no business there, it would be unsettling for a horse to be moved, expensive for livery, expensive for PTS.... But, having met a fair few people I think it would have customers. It means people can salve their conscience that the horse had a month at grass, or stabled if that is what is better, on pain meds to whatever dose was necessary. They would be able to tell their friends that the horse had gone to retirement. They would have photos sent of their horse in the sun, stable, whatever. They would not have to face the practicalities, and would know their horse would be held, disposed of etc. 

In reality I do not have enough land for this, or a vehicle set up for commercial needs. I do think that there would be a business in it, albeit a niche one. I also think it would be fair for the horses that are stuck in a non decision place. Not an ideal situation, but maybe better than where they are now. It would only be a minute % of owners who would use such a service, but there are a heck of a lot of horses facing pts.


----------



## fatpiggy (30 July 2015)

hackneylass2 said:



			I still say that the return of Stallion Licences would be invaluable.  Before I'm jumped on I don't mean that stallions would have to be graded ...just a licence that unites stallion with owner like the dog licences were.  But then, there's no money available to police this and 1000 other things that need policing here at the moment, and the penalties for breaking many laws are laughably soft!

I would never ever feed anything to my pets that was not passed for for human consumption, and as honetpot said, neither would most  people so yes, the pet food market is largely out.  

Taking a view that is against my general principles, I do think that at this moment in time, the ability of councils to sieze fly-grazed and dumped animals and dispose of as they see fit is a good way of reducing the coloured cob type waifs, in fact I can see the breeders of these unfortunates actively dumping them 'en masse' anyway as the legitimate routes for these animals dry up.  I do however. fear for the future welfare of horses if the live export ban is lifted, which I think, is under review.  I also think that how councils dispose of these animals should be looked at to ensure that the horses and ponies do not end up at some under the radar slaughterhouse. Potters would not be an option for any of these poor creatures as I guess they won't come with a handy passport!
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree about the stallion licence - but it should be much more expensive than it used to be to help to deter the numpties who think its "lovely" to own a stallion simply due to image/status and then allow it to breed willy nilly with their friends' rubbish mares, people who have no idea about the responsibilities and demands of breeding but just "fancy a cute foal".  Stallion licences used to be issued under the dangerous animals act, dogs were different.


----------



## hackneylass2 (31 July 2015)

Fatpiggy, yes I know that the Stallion Licences were different but it's so long ago I had to deal with it .....now my brain has fuzzed over!  Glad you agree but I fear that whatever happens, the policing is going to cost more than the authorities can bear what with all the LA cuts.  

Red 1  I think your idea is great in principle, after all, its very similar to what Dorothy Brooke did all those years ago.  Trouble is, the largest amount of unwanted and dumped animals have 'owners' who just don't care where they end up.  Also I do believe that apart from it potentially being a heavy emotional weight on your mind to run such a business, I wonder if the relaxing of peoples' responsibilities when faced with the decision is not to be encouraged.  If we look back, I think most of us know or know of, instances where animals were 'sent to a farm' when they obviously were not.  I think we should be encouraging people to stand up and face their responsibilities more, not less.  I think what worries me most is the potential live export situation.


----------



## fatpiggy (31 July 2015)

hackneylass2 said:



			Fatpiggy, yes I know that the Stallion Licences were different but it's so long ago I had to deal with it .....now my brain has fuzzed over!  Glad you agree but I fear that whatever happens, the policing is going to cost more than the authorities can bear what with all the LA cuts.  

Red 1  I think your idea is great in principle, after all, its very similar to what Dorothy Brooke did all those years ago.  Trouble is, the largest amount of unwanted and dumped animals have 'owners' who just don't care where they end up.  Also I do believe that apart from it potentially being a heavy emotional weight on your mind to run such a business, I wonder if the relaxing of peoples' responsibilities when faced with the decision is not to be encouraged.  If we look back, I think most of us know or know of, instances where animals were 'sent to a farm' when they obviously were not.  I think we should be encouraging people to stand up and face their responsibilities more, not less.  I think what worries me most is the potential live export situation.
		
Click to expand...

Hi Hackneylass, yes, you are right.  The same people who breed the poor unfortunates of coloured coats and rubbish conformation don't bother with passports, so they are hardly going to shell out £100+ for a stallion licence -not my horse mister, it belongs to a Mr Smith, and of course we all know the police don't bother to investigate their serious misdeeds, so the odd licence here and there is of absolutely no interest to them.

Red1, you are very kind and obviously have the horse's best interests very much at heart. The only problem I can see is that you are absolving the owner of their responsibilities.  When I bought my horse my parents reminded me that at some time in the future I was going to be having her put down and was I prepared to do that?  The answer 18 years later was yes, and it was entirely my choice. You just have to man-up and get on with it I'm afraid, and allowing people to simply walk away from their responsibilities doesn't sit right with me.  They already do it when they dump puppies and kittens because the litter wasn't wanted, or got too boisterous, or abandon horses in field because they have lost interest, the boyfriend comes first, or whatever.  People are so spineless these days. No wonder marriages don't last long!

Hackneylass - go to bed!


----------



## Penny Less (31 July 2015)

hackneylass, is it true that horses don't end up in pet food ? I didn't know that


----------



## Alec Swan (31 July 2015)

Penny Less said:



			hackneylass, is it true that horses don't end up in pet food ? I didn't know that
		
Click to expand...

If it's true,  it's lunacy and a further indication that our world's being governed by those with little thought to the future.

Alec.


----------



## ycbm (31 July 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			If it's true,  it's lunacy and a further indication that our world's being governed by those with little thought to the future.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, it's lunacy!    My first horse was put down at his home stables in 1986 and the Belle View Pet Food Company sent me a cheque in the post. I now have to pay about two hundred pounds. What's wrong with the meat going in a tin of dog food?  I have no objection, and I'd rather the meat was used than burnt, and I'd rather be paid than have to pay.


----------



## hackneylass2 (1 August 2015)

Fatpiggy...cheers, but I do a lot of my work at night!

Regarding petfood, companies in the UK who belong to the Association of British Petfood Manufacturers (that includes the vast majority of the big brands) will and do not use any animal not passed fit for human consumption or seen as a 'food animal' in the UK's diet.  They also will not use any marine mammal.  Interestingly enough, during the horsemeat crisis a few years back, many petfoods from the ABPFM brands were tested and NONE contained equine DNA.  They also banned some beef offals in the wake of the BSE crisis BEFORE government legislation banned it in human foods! Food for thought indeed.  Seems that majority of petfood manufacturers care more than those providing meat for us to eat!

There is a similar Association in the EU who strangely enough follow the same guidelines, even though horse is eaten by some, if not most EU countries.

Ycbm, I guess the Belle Vue company were a small company.  I personally would not feel comfortable with feeding my pets meat that was not good enough and safe enough for me to eat, wonder how many drugged or diseased horses the smaller companies processed?  Also, after the enjoyment and service that my horses have given me over the years, I would not baulk at paying for them to be put to sleep by my vet and buried/cremated.  Each to their own I know, but that is my stance.


----------



## Welly (1 August 2015)

I started this post a couple of years ago  and I read with interest the new posts. To me it does not matter where the body ends up, dog food, humane food, or even an expensive earn on the mantle piece.  The fact is people won't do the first step which is deciding to PTS. It seems a taboo subject for most. This is an extract from my previous post.

"I think there a need for a voluntary organization made up of caring people who would help people at this time. The Organisation could arrange for their horse to be PTS, be with them or their animals at this time and if funds could be raised, help with the cost. Would you help a person in this situation? Alternatively, perhaps the animal charities should have a dedicated team to help and advise people who for whatever reason are in this position. 
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?642134-PTS-would-you-help#Rk0efL3PXao64ygv.99"

Someone pointed out that the BHS do a service but I have never seen it advatised.  And this is the point, I have never seen my vet or the Knackerman advertise what they can do for you in this situation.  I have used both and found both to be So very kind and thoughtful and take away as much stress as they could.  

Here's a thought, Perhaps we should lobby our vets to post out a leaflet to all their equine clients advising them what they can do, when it should be done, how it can be done including the Knackerman, and the cost.


----------



## ycbm (1 August 2015)

hackneylass2 said:



			Ycbm, I guess the Belle Vue company were a small company.  I personally would not feel comfortable with feeding my pets meat that was not good enough and safe enough for me to eat, wonder how many drugged or diseased horses the smaller companies processed?  Also, after the enjoyment and service that my horses have given me over the years, I would not baulk at paying for them to be put to sleep by my vet and buried/cremated.  Each to their own I know, but that is my stance.
		
Click to expand...

As I said, it was 1986, which was before the days when horses were routinely stuffed with bute and antibiotics for every little knock and scratch. 

What I actually got a cheque for was forty pounds for his hair, hooves and bones. He was put down for kidney failure, so his meat was unusable due to toxins, and that was incinerated as far as I know, otherwise the payment would have been hundreds. So hopefully, they did what they said and didn't put his urea poisoned body into someone's pet dog 

I don't baulk at paying for my horses to be put down either, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't prefer to be paid for it.  I don't have any feelings for the body, that's not the horse I lived and cared for, it's just the shell that held his soul.  I hold my friend's horses when they are put down by injection.  I don't like it for my own horses, I prefer a quick bullet for my own, but always at home.


----------



## ester (1 August 2015)

MagicMelon said:



			You mention you don't like "unrideable" horses being sold, why?  Unrideable horses can have a perfectly good use as a companion (where often shetlands are NOT the most suitable companion to say a large horse who has totally different grazing needs etc.). I loaned out my big 17yo warmblood - unrideable except for a gentle hack due to him being mechanically lame yet a very happy, bright horse so I wouldn't consider PTS even though he is now coming back to me and financially it's not ideal (I'm having to rent extra land as my own isn't enough etc.) but I will look after him no matter what as I owe it to him to give him a good retirement. 3 of mine are over the age of 17 now so are effectively field ornaments and will be with me to the end of their days, no they have no 'use' as such and its a strain having them but I will only PTS when they shows signs of being unhappy. IMO I have no right to end the life of an animal just because it doesnt have a job anymore or because of my own circumstances etc. There's two sides IMO - those who PTS perfectly happy horses just because they think they're the only ones who can look after them so refuse to even try rehoming (seemingly they think all other horsey people are nasty) and those who don't PTS when they absolutely should due to the horses ill health. 

I think most of the horses that tend to end up in charities are often taken in as rescue cases from people who simply shouldn't be allowed near any animal and often from people who die and haven't left instructions what to do with them in their will?  With regard to over-breeding, totally believe that is a massive massive issue that needs to be dealt with with education / higher costs (to put off the low end ones out for a quick buck).
		
Click to expand...

Exactly you haven't sold him, you loaned him and will take responsibility for him for the rest of his life and ensure a secure future.


----------

