# Woman attacked by dogs and killed in Liverpool



## skinnydipper (3 October 2022)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-63124015


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## splashgirl45 (3 October 2022)

Not another one ☹️☹️ Wonder if they were family dogs as it says she was in the house ..  it’s terrible this keeps on happening


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## ArklePig (3 October 2022)

For FFS. Correct me if I'm wrong but there seems to be a lot more this year than normal? Horrible, that poor woman.


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## Clodagh (4 October 2022)

That’s awful. Can you imagine the scene? I dare say more facts will come to light.


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## Smitty (4 October 2022)

Bbc headlines now:  5 American Bulldogs destroyed and their 31 YO owner held in custody for being in charge of dangerously out of control dogs.


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## bonny (4 October 2022)

Does make me wonder what it would take for bullies to be banned .....just crazy that the numbers in our midst are increasing all the time. Seems this woman and her son were breeding them, what on earth makes people want to own them ?


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## Starzaan (4 October 2022)

bonny said:



			Does make me wonder what it would take for bullies to be banned .....just crazy that the numbers in our midst are increasing all the time. Seems this woman and her son were breeding them, what on earth makes people want to own them ?
		
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When they aren’t owned by morons they are absolutely lovely dogs. Beautiful temperaments, amazing family dogs. 
Sadly since covid, prices have rocketed, more and more people have been buying dogs who don’t understand how to train or care for them, and more and more clueless people are breeding for the money. 
It breaks my heart that this keeps happening. When will our country understand that just banning breeds won’t help. Introducing much tighter restrictions around who can own and breed dogs is the only real way forward.


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## bonny (4 October 2022)

Starzaan said:



			When they aren’t owned by morons they are absolutely lovely dogs. Beautiful temperaments, amazing family dogs.
Sadly since covid, prices have rocketed, more and more people have been buying dogs who don’t understand how to train or care for them, and more and more clueless people are breeding for the money.
It breaks my heart that this keeps happening. When will our country understand that just banning breeds won’t help. Introducing much tighter restrictions around who can own and breed dogs is the only real way forward.
		
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As you can’t legislate who owns them the only way to not to keep having fatal attacks is just not to have them at all. Nobody needs to have a XL bully.


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## Starzaan (4 October 2022)

bonny said:



			As you can’t legislate who owns them the only way to not to keep having fatal attacks is just not to have them at all. Nobody needs to have a XL bully.
		
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I don’t need to have Great Danes and a Malinois, particularly the Mali because I don’t need her to do any bite work or guarding. However, my dogs are well trained and are a pleasure to be around.

The breed has absolutely nothing to do with it. It’s the idiots who own them who create bad dogs.

There was a case near my fathers home in South Africa recently where a Labrador killed two people who had broken into someone’s house. Should we consider banning labradors too? They have as much potential to kill as bull breeds.


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## bonny (4 October 2022)

Starzaan said:



			I don’t need to have Great Danes and a Malinois, particularly the Mali because I don’t need her to do any bite work or guarding. However, my dogs are well trained and are a pleasure to be around.

The breed has absolutely nothing to do with it. It’s the idiots who own them who create bad dogs.

There was a case near my fathers home in South Africa recently where a Labrador killed two people who had broken into someone’s house. Should we consider banning labradors too? They have as much potential to kill as bull breeds.
		
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It’s all irrelevant anyway, people will carry on breeding them, others will keep buying them and people will continue to be attacked and killed by them.


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## Birker2020 (4 October 2022)

There is a time when you have to stop and ask yourself is it nature or nurture that turns this type of dog into a killer?
Some dogs are genetically predisposed to fight rather than flee, like the difference between a labrador that might run in the opposite direction or a German Shepherd that might face a threat head on. That doesn't mean a German Shepherd is at anymore risk of being a 'dangerous dog' its just that their very nature means they are more likely to not run away.

The problem is that its not just a case of what that dog has been subjected to by the handler.  There can be hundreds of factors in a dogs life, or events that may have contributed to either reactive behaviour or aggressive behaviour and not just one thing that you could pinpoint has a lasting effect. 

A lot of it is learned behaviour and the reaction of its owner (s) who have contributed, most probably, to its behaviour without even realising.


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## Pearlsasinger (4 October 2022)

bonny said:



			As you can’t legislate who owns them the only way to not to keep having fatal attacks is just not to have them at all. Nobody needs to have a XL bully.
		
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You could certainly legislate who breeds dogs.


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## CorvusCorax (4 October 2022)

Unwarranted/inappropriate aggression in any dog is generally down to poor/high nerve and that's genetic and gets put aside for colour and looks and size etc etc etc in breeding animals.

Confident, stable dogs don't go around biting people and gobbing off at everything for no reason.


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## Jenko109 (4 October 2022)

bonny said:



			As you can’t legislate who owns them the only way to not to keep having fatal attacks is just not to have them at all. Nobody needs to have a XL bully.
		
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I agree with you. I have no problem with people who know what they are doing owning them, but that isnt the case, any muppet who wants a status symbol can have one. 

These dogs are too powerful, inflict too much damage too quickly and do not back down. They are a liability in the wrong hands and the wrong hands I daresay would be the majority of people who own one.


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## Arzada (4 October 2022)

ArklePig said:



			For FFS. Correct me if I'm wrong but there seems to be a lot more this year than normal? Horrible, that poor woman.
		
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You're correct. There are more deaths by dog in 2022. To 31 May there were 6 fatalities. ANd more since. 
https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/local-news/national-crisis-fatal-dog-attacks-24110874

Between 2013 and 2019 the average number of death by dog was just over 3 pa 
https://www.gbnews.uk/news/uk-dog-a...ncluding-toddler-killed-since-november/261833


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## Amymay (4 October 2022)

Horrific


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## ArklePig (4 October 2022)

Thanks @Arzada really interesting links. I wasn't sure if I was just more aware of them from reading this forum recently or if they had increased, but they have massively. It feels so futile to say something must be done, what can be done? I'm not one to advocate banning whole breeds of dog but the thoughts of some one owning 5 American bulldogs just seems crazy. Even if there were stringent restrictions I can't see them being enforced to any great degree given we see often on this very forum that some dog wardens won't even act on a continuously straying dog.


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## Errin Paddywack (4 October 2022)

Locally there are a couple who own an aggressive rottie.  On one occasion they were in their front garden, their dog was loose and someone passing with a guide dog brood bitch had it badly attacked by this dog.  It now has a restraining order on it.  Then more recently a chap we know who also has a rottie, a real sweetie was walking it in a local little wood when his was attacked out of the blue by a rottie that was on a lead but the owner couldn't hold it.  He got badly bitten and his dog was bitten too.  His wounds got infected and he now has a referral to a plastics surgeon for evaluation.  He didn't report this as he doesn't want to get rotties a bad name.  However it turns out it is the rottie with a restraining order on it.  His friend has told him he must report it and I hope he does as this is a really nasty dog.

My friend has also told me a young couple who bought a TM bitch puppy earlier this year and now have another pup, a dog, which is a Neapolitan Mastiff x Cane Corsa and I think something else too.  They take good care of their dogs but what is the betting they breed them together.  Really hope they don't.

I just despair at times.


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## Esmae (4 October 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			You could certainly legislate who breeds dogs.
		
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You certainly could, however whether or not it would ultimately make a difference is questionable. Laws, generally, only work for the law abiding.  Personally I think most of these problems are caused by dogs being in the wrong hands.  Sad for the woman to lose her life.


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## Birker2020 (4 October 2022)

Errin Paddywack said:



			My friend has also told me a young couple who bought a TM bitch puppy earlier this year and now have another pup, a dog, which is a Neapolitan Mastiff x Cane Corsa and I think something else too.  They take good care of their dogs but what is the betting they breed them together.  Really hope they don't.

I just despair at times.
		
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Crikey, both Cane Corsa's and Neopolitan Mastiffs are on the dangerous dogs list in the US so having a mix isn't ideal, much less breeding from one.  I shrudder to think why people would want this??

Are those dogs attractive to the type of people who strutt down the street looking 'ard' with their dog at their side straining on a lead and looking menacing?


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## Clodagh (4 October 2022)

Starzaan said:



			I Should we consider banning labradors too? They have as much potential to kill as bull breeds.
		
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They really don’t. Look at the inside of a non bull bred dog compared to a bull bred. The jaws on bullies are bred to have enormous amounts of grip and pressure.


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## Starzaan (4 October 2022)

Clodagh said:



			They really don’t. Look at the inside of a non bull bred dog compared to a bull bred. The jaws on bullies are bred to have enormous amounts of grip and pressure.
		
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Oh I don’t dispute that bull breeds have power behind them. But Great Danes technically are bull breeds as they’re a mastiff. Do we ban them too? 
I just fail to see how banning breeds will make any difference whatsoever. We need to regulate the industry, not just ban dogs.


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## Birker2020 (4 October 2022)

Starzaan said:



			Oh I don’t dispute that bull breeds have power behind them. But Great Danes technically are bull breeds as they’re a mastiff. Do we ban them too?
I just fail to see how banning breeds will make any difference whatsoever. We need to regulate the industry, not just ban dogs.
		
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Neopolitan breed characteristic shows them as being:  
	

Four of those words send a shiver down my spine.


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## ester (4 October 2022)

Most NMs these days wouldn’t be able to see anything well enough to do much


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## CorvusCorax (4 October 2022)

I am not sure that there is breed-specific legislation covering the entirety of the United States of America, laws are usually by state/city/county.

I know someone with a Cane Corso with natural ears and tail who does very well in kennel club obedience competitions and showing, he's a big soft thing, they are not all monsters.
I don't recall Neopolitan Mastiffs as having been a problem in a very long time?


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## SilverLinings (4 October 2022)

I think if breeds are banned that have caused attacks then unfortunately the irresponsible type of owner who is drawn to them (the type who picks a bull breed to look aggressive, and deliberately winds the dog up) will just move on to another breed. And that is supposing that they don't just obtain illegal ones.

There isn't a lot of accountability with dog owning at the moment, as shown on the other thread where neither the police nor dog warden will speak to the owner of dogs repeatedly straying onto a main road. Dogs are also supposed to be microchipped so could that not be linked to dog licences, and the licensing of breeding? Yes, some people would ignore it, but if the money raised from licensing went to fund more (and more proactive) dog wardens then spot checks in public would help to cut down on the less responsible owners. Unlicensed dogs should be seized and not released without a significant fine (and repeat occurrences could result in court for the owner).

If certain breeds are seen as a particular risk (in certain hands) in terms of attacks, then maybe requiring the owner to either attend some training themselves before the dog is 1yr old, or to take the dog to a training/assessment session and display basic obedience could again be linked to the dog license.

It's not an easy problem to solve, but aside from the risk to humans it is horrifying how many dogs are in completely unsuitable homes at the moment, made worse by the pandemic boom in ownership. Anything that stops dogs being owned by actively cruel people or completely ignorant and selfish numpties would be a good thing surely. 

A lot of owners don't seem to realise that it is a privilege to own a dog not a right, and that they are responsible for putting the dog's needs first, but then a lot of them don't even seem to realise that about having children.


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## CorvusCorax (4 October 2022)

SilverLinings said:



			I think if breeds are banned that have caused attacks then unfortunately the irresponsible type of owner who is drawn to them (the type who picks a bull breed to look aggressive, and deliberately winds the dog up) will just move on to another breed. And that is supposing that they don't just obtain illegal ones.

There isn't a lot of accountability with dog owning at the moment, as shown on the other thread where neither the police nor dog warden will speak to the owner of dogs repeatedly straying onto a main road. Dogs are also supposed to be microchipped so could that not be linked to dog licences, and the licensing of breeding? Yes, some people would ignore it, but if the money raised from licensing went to fund more (and more proactive) dog wardens then spot checks in public would help to cut down on the less responsible owners. Unlicensed dogs should be seized and not released without a significant fine (and repeat occurrences could result in court for the owner).

If certain breeds are seen as a particular risk (in certain hands) in terms of attacks, then maybe requiring the owner to either attend some training themselves before the dog is 1yr old, or to take the dog to a training/assessment session and display basic obedience could again be linked to the dog license.

It's not an easy problem to solve, but aside from the risk to humans it is horrifying how many dogs are in completely unsuitable homes at the moment, made worse by the pandemic boom in ownership. Anything that stops dogs being owned by actively cruel people or completely ignorant and selfish numpties would be a good thing surely.

A lot of owners don't seem to realise that it is a privilege to own a dog not a right, and that they are responsible for putting the dog's needs first, but then a lot of them don't even seem to realise that about having children.
		
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This, this and this again, we have these conversations every time this subject unfortunately comes around again, all too often.

My friend's dog (plus a spaniel and a fisherman, who was able to fend it off with his rod) was attacked by a bull type in a public walking spot a few weeks ago. Owner said that the leash broke but another witness says he regularly just pops the boot and lets the dog off with no leash. It took 20 minutes to catch the thing.
The dog warden arrived and my friend heard him say 'this is the third time I've had to speak to you' - why was action not taken, at least on the second time?


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## SilverLinings (4 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			This, this and this again, we have these conversations every time this subject unfortunately comes around again, all too often.

My friend's dog (plus a spaniel and a fisherman, who was able to fend it off with his rod) was attacked by a bull type in a public walking spot a few weeks ago. Owner said that the leash broke but another witness says he regularly just pops the boot and lets the dog off with no leash. It took 20 minutes to catch the thing.
The dog warden arrived and my friend heard him say 'this is the third time I've had to speak to you' - why was action not taken, at least on the second time?
		
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The problem is that we're preaching to the choir on here! 

At the risk of going down a rabbit hole, I think there is a larger issue in society that has developed over the last few years of some people not being adults and taking responsibility for the things they have control over. Frankly, if you can't be a responsible adult then you shouldn't be allowed children/pets/alcohol/to drive/etc, as you are behaving like a child (not you CC, the generic 'you'!). Particularly in the case of animals and children as you have the potential to ruin their lives (or kill them).

Regarding dog wardens, it very much seems luck of the draw whether you live near an effective one or not, and they don't seem to have many powers to do much of any consequence. Toughening up their powers would be a start, and repeat offending by dog owners should mean fines at the very least.


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## YorksG (4 October 2022)

A few years ago, I had the misfortune of a loose dog running into the side of my car. It was supposedly with its female owner and her friend, who also had a loose spaniel. The road is 40mph with no pavement. The dog that got the car ran off and its owner was unaware of what had happened! 
I rang the police non emergency number to inform of the collision, the call handler appeared to think that I was entirely to blame for the event, however the dog warden, thankfully, had a different view and we saw a massive improvement for a few weeks.


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## Birker2020 (4 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			I am not sure that there is breed-specific legislation covering the entirety of the United States of America, laws are usually by state/city/county.

I know someone with a Cane Corso with natural ears and tail who does very well in kennel club obedience competitions and showing, he's a big soft thing, they are not all monsters.
I don't recall Neopolitan Mastiffs as having been a problem in a very long time?
		
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Fila Brasilerio, Pit Bull Terrier, Japanese Tosa and Dog Artentino are the four in this country on the DDA 1991.   
52 countries have breed specific legislation against them.  As of 2018 there is some level of breed-specific legislation in 37 states and over 1,000 cities in the US.


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## CorvusCorax (4 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Fila Brasilerio, Pit Bull Terrier, Japanese Tosa and Dog Artentino are the four in this country on the DDA 1991.
52 countries have breed specific legislation against them.  As of 2018 there is some level of breed-specific legislation in 37 states and over 1,000 cities in the US.
		
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Yes, I know that about the UK, you said: 




			Cane Corsa's and Neopolitan Mastiffs are on the dangerous dogs list in the US
		
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 I do not think there is a definitive list covering all 50 states.


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## Michen (4 October 2022)

Starzaan said:



			I don’t need to have Great Danes and a Malinois, particularly the Mali because I don’t need her to do any bite work or guarding. However, my dogs are well trained and are a pleasure to be around.

The breed has absolutely nothing to do with it. It’s the idiots who own them who create bad dogs.

There was a case near my fathers home in South Africa recently where a Labrador killed two people who had broken into someone’s house. Should we consider banning labradors too? They have as much potential to kill as bull breeds.
		
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The breed has everything to do with it. You don't hear about packs of spaniels attacking and killing people.

As for that labrador story, given the number of labs vs number of bull breeds and the frequency that that happens, it seems pretty obvious to me it's FAR more likely to happen with some breeds than others. Of course any dog can bite or kill, but the same offenders repeatedly appear time and time again.


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## Birker2020 (4 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			Yes, I know that about the UK, you said:  I do not think there is a definitive list covering all 50 states.
		
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All right if we want to get nit picky Cane Corsa's currently are banned or restricted in Kentucky, Ohio, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Missouri, New Mexico, Iowa, Kansas, Oregon, Washington, Louisiana, Nebraska, Wiconsin, Alabama, South & North Carolina, Vermont, Idiana, Georgia, and Delaware, Illinois, Michigan, Mississippi, North Dakota, West Virginia, Wyoming.


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## Birker2020 (4 October 2022)

FYI list of fatal dog attacks

WARNING: MAY CONTAIN UPSETTING INFORMATION
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom showing a lot of attacks by American Bully breeds in recent months.


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## CorvusCorax (4 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			All right if we want to get nit picky Cane Corsa's currently are banned or restricted in Kentucky, Ohio, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Missouri, New Mexico, Iowa, Kansas, Oregon, Washington, Louisiana, Nebraska, Wiconsin, Alabama, South & North Carolina, Vermont, Idiana, Georgia, and Delaware, Illinois, Michigan, Mississippi, North Dakota, West Virginia, Wyoming.
		
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Congratulations on being able to use Google and Wiki, but there still isn't a country-wide dangerous dogs list for the USA, as far as I know.


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## skinnydipper (4 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			All right if we want to get nit picky Cane Corsa's
		
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I can get nit picky  

The breed is Cane Cors*o*.

We are in the UK not US.

Not all bull breeds are mastiffs
Not all mastiffs are bull breeds

I hope that clears that up.


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## Birker2020 (4 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			Congratulations on being able to use Google and Wiki, but there still isn't a country-wide dangerous dogs list for the USA, as far as I know.
		
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I don't recall saying there was did I?  I said that the Cane Corsa was banned in the US.  Maybe what I should have said was that the Cane Corsa was banned in far more states in the US than it wasn't banned but to be honest I didn't think people would be that nit picky.


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## Birker2020 (4 October 2022)

skinnydipper said:



			I can get nit picky 

The breed is Cane Cors*o*.

We are in the UK not US.

.
		
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I'm answering CC reply 31    
If you weren't so busy trying to discredit me to look good you would see that.


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## CorvusCorax (4 October 2022)

Birker, this is what you said:



Birker2020 said:



			Crikey, both Cane Corsa's and Neopolitan Mastiffs are on the dangerous dogs list in the US
		
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And I was saying that no such list exists, it's a massive country and each state and county and city and municipality will all have their own legislation.

It's not nitpicking, it is just fact, and it's important that people are equipped with facts, not opinions.


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## Birker2020 (4 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			Birker, this is what you said:



And I was saying that no such list exists, it's a massive country and each state and county and city and municipality will all have their own legislation.
		
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Okay Cane Corso are on the dangerous dogs list in the US in some states. I don't see it really makes any difference to be honest.  They have been assessed by some states as dangerous dogs or they wouldn't be on the list.  End of .  Who cares if they are classed in one state or not the other.


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## BallyRoanBaubles (4 October 2022)

Just reading through the list and came across this 'Cocaine and morphine were found in the dog's urine. The dog, named Major, was to be euthanised. ' WTF!!


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## skinnydipper (4 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I'm answering CC reply 31 
If you weren't so busy trying to discredit me to look good you would see that.
		
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As far as I am aware you don't get to decide who can post on a thread.

eta.  I've edited this post to include your edit


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## Birker2020 (4 October 2022)

BallyRoanBaubles said:



			Just reading through the list and came across this 'Cocaine and morphine were found in the dog's urine. The dog, named Major, was to be euthanised. ' WTF!!
		
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Never stood a chance did it, lets face it?


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## scats (4 October 2022)

That poor lady, what a horrific way to go.
I groom a young XL bully and he is absolutely beautiful but my god I’ve never seen a dog like it before.  His head and jaw have to be seen to be believed.  He is absolutely immense.  If he decided to turn on me, I’d not stand a chance.  The last groom he was over 5 stone and he’s only 6 months old.


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## CorvusCorax (4 October 2022)

I think comparing Cornwall and Wiltshire to Kentucky and Kansas and leopards to dogs is indicative of the overall problem, here, but sure, go off


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## Birker2020 (4 October 2022)

skinnydipper said:



			As far as I am aware you don't get to decide who can post on a thread.

eta.  I've edited my post to include your edit 

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I didn't say I did, what is the matter with you??


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## Birker2020 (4 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			I think comparing Cornwall and Wiltshire to Kentucky and Kansas and leopards to dogs is indicative of the overall problem, here, but sure, go off 

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That's why I deleted it because it was a rubbish example and I knew, just knew that someone sad would see fit to make some sarky comment about it.


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## Arzada (4 October 2022)

Two fatalities are missing from the list in Birker2020's post #34.

9 people killed by dog/s this year

10 January 2022 3 British bulldogs John William Jones, M, 68 years Lampeter, Wales. A man was bitten by three dogs at a house in the town and consequently died at the scene from his injuries, as recorded by Ceredigion Coroner's Office. A woman was subsequently arrested in connection with the attack.[101]

6 March 2022 Husky Kyra Leanne King, F, 3 months Woodhall Spa, Lincolnshire. Three-month-old child killed after an attack at Ostler's Plantation, an area popular with dog walkers. A man and woman, aged 54 and 40, who were held on suspicion of being in charge of an out-of-control husky dog, have been released under investigation.[102]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom#2020–2029


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## ester (4 October 2022)

Now I’m imagining them as small hatchbacks….


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## Birker2020 (4 October 2022)

Arzada said:



			Two fatalities are missing from the list in Birker2020's post #34.

9 people killed by dog/s this year

10 January 2022 3 British bulldogs John William Jones, M, 68 years Lampeter, Wales. A man was bitten by three dogs at a house in the town and consequently died at the scene from his injuries, as recorded by Ceredigion Coroner's Office. A woman was subsequently arrested in connection with the attack.[101]

6 March 2022 Husky Kyra Leanne King, F, 3 months Woodhall Spa, Lincolnshire. Three-month-old child killed after an attack at Ostler's Plantation, an area popular with dog walkers. A man and woman, aged 54 and 40, who were held on suspicion of being in charge of an out-of-control husky dog, have been released under investigation.[102]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom#2020–2029

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From the screen shot you mean?  They were missing but because someone had commented about the large amount of bully breeds earlier in the thread so I did a screen shot containing the info about them.


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## Birker2020 (4 October 2022)

ester said:



			Now I’m imagining them as small hatchbacks….
		
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that's funny  little Vauxhall's everywhere


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## Birker2020 (4 October 2022)

To be honest I think there are more aggressive dawgs on this forum than there are in the whole of US and UK put together but still I digress.......


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## Barton Bounty (4 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			To be honest I think there are more aggressive dawgs on this forum than there are in the whole of US and UK put together but still I digress.......
		
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I dont even know why you bother @Birker2020 same folk same comments , never changes 😬 how fulfilling their lives must be. Glad I dont see any of them 😃


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## Arzada (4 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			From the screen shot you mean?  They were missing but because someone had commented about the large amount of bully breeds earlier in the thread so I did a screen shot containing the info about them.

View attachment 100232

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From your first sentence below I thought you were giving a complete list of fatal attacks:



Birker2020 said:



			FYI list of fatal dog attacks

WARNING: MAY CONTAIN UPSETTING INFORMATION
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom showing a lot of attacks by American Bully breeds in recent months.
		
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## Birker2020 (4 October 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			I dont even know why you bother @Birker2020 same folk same comments , never changes 😬 how fulfilling their lives must be. Glad I dont see any of them 😃
		
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I know, it gets boring after a while.  Trolls. UI I think.


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## Goldenstar (4 October 2022)

I think the breed does have something to do with it.
I have only ever met two dogs that scared me one was a Boerbel ( ended up PTS after it bit a member of its family ) and a American bulldog the owner of that dog got some heavy duty help and it grew up to be if not easy but able to lead life .

The pack thing when out of control it’s a terrible thought attacked by five America Bulldogs it makes me shiver to think of it 

We are able to accept that breeding makes a dog predisposed to bring back a duck so therefore it’s not a big a jump to say other breeds are more predisposed to bite and hold on hard . 
It is of course mainly down to the owners inappropriate care , exercise , numbers, no or the wrong training .
The poor dog is just as much the victim.


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## dreamcometrue (4 October 2022)

Retriever type dogs have soft mouths.  They carry the bird without damaging it.  Our Springer could carry an egg in her mouth without breaking it.


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## Goldenstar (4 October 2022)

My dog carry's my hand sometimes when we are walking some where strange gosh I love him he’s so kind.


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## stangs (4 October 2022)

To what extent is the high proportion of bully attacks to do with the types of people that tend to own them, rather than to do with their nature and build alone? I'm sure that if every dodgy bloke with a XL bully had an Airedale terrier instead, there'd be people on here posting that Airedale terriers need to be banned with the number of people they've killed.

Then again, I'd still prefer people to have an XL bully than a bully kutta or a LGD breed being kept in the city.


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## twiggy2 (4 October 2022)

dreamcometrue said:



			Retriever type dogs have soft mouths.  They carry the bird without damaging it.  Our Springer could carry an egg in her mouth without breaking it.
		
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Retriever dogs SHOULD have soft mouths, it is not fact, there are other dogs that should too. The type or breed of dog should make them predisposed to certain behaviours and their physical make up can make them more able to carry out certain actions. 
Dog breeds were developed to carry out certain jobs so the breed or type must make a breed or type more predisposed to certain behaviours and abilities.
All of that said in my experience unersocialised and nervy dogs are the most likely to bite (not necessarily attack).
I love the bully breeds they are not bred to be aggressive they are generally very people friendly not so much friendly with other dogs, mastiffs,  I have come across ones I am not so comfortable with more frequently but generally they are lacking social skills and confidence.
Its tricky because some dogs are armed with the physique that can make them so much more capable of doing significant damage than others but most of them still have sound temperaments.
Its more about the dogs being in the wrong hands, some people make mistakes with these dogs unintentionally others have them as status symbols but whatever the reason its always the dogs that suffers and often innocent people around them.


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## YorksG (4 October 2022)

Nature versus nurture, the never ending debate! The rotters were intensively socialised from the off and were confident, friendly animals throughout their lives. The labs were bought late summer, so we missed all the aggri shows, then we had lockdown and all the things we had done with the rotters were denied them. Getting them civilised was much harder work, as they were so much older before they could get properly out and about.  We did still have B rotter when they could get out and about, so they did have a good solid role model.  It really is about their training imo and working with the dog you have, whatever its breed.


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## stangs (4 October 2022)

No well-trained, well-socialised dog will kill someone. So, in creating new legislation, does the question have to be which breeds are the most likely to kill someone if untrained or poorly socialised?


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## bonny (4 October 2022)

stangs said:



			No well-trained, well-socialised dog will kill someone. So, in creating new legislation, does the question have to be which breeds are the most likely to kill someone if untrained or poorly socialised?
		
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There isn’t any other way to stop these attacks other than by looking at breeds ?


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## Smitty (4 October 2022)

The article in The Mirror is interesting as the people in the near locality have voiced their views and concerns over the growing number of bull breeds on their streets and being bred by back yard breeders then advertised on line.  One person said it's as bad as drug dealing.


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## Amymay (4 October 2022)

Smitty said:



			The article in The Mirror is interesting as the people in the near locality have voiced their views and concerns over the growing number of bull breeds on their streets and being bred by back yard breeders then advertised on line.  *One person said it's as bad as drug dealing.*

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*And often goes hand in hand.*


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## Nasicus (4 October 2022)

stangs said:



			To what extent is the high proportion of bully attacks to do with the types of people that tend to own them, rather than to do with their nature and build alone? I'm sure that if every dodgy bloke with a XL bully had an Airedale terrier instead, there'd be people on here posting that Airedale terriers need to be banned with the number of people they've killed.
Then again, I'd still prefer people to have an XL bully than a bully kutta or a LGD breed being kept in the city.
		
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A bull breed is going to do a LOT more damage and has far more capability to seriously maim, mutilate and kill a human than an airedale terrier. And when you look at the lists, they do just that. Sure an Airedale owned by the same kind of people that tend to own these bull breeds could be an absolute wackjob, but the difference in killing capability is the rub here.
And that's taking the piss-poor breeding and disregard for mentally, stable healthy dogs that these bull breeds seem subject to out of the equation.


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## CorvusCorax (4 October 2022)

Amymay said:



*And often goes hand in hand.*

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I mean there are plenty of jokes on Twitter about the 'non-standard colour French Bulldog breeder to drug dealer pipeline', or the fact that a lot of drug dealers became dog breeders during lockdown.


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## Clodagh (4 October 2022)

I’ve said it before on here but I have no idea why we can’t follow Australia’s example. Dog licenses that are expensive for entires and cheap for neuters. Tags that are colour coded so at a glance you can see if they are up to date. A robust dog warden presence with fines that are doled out quite briskly for misdemeanours. I’m not saying (before anyone Google’s!) that no one ever gets bitten in Oz but let’s at least make a bit of an effort.


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## CorvusCorax (4 October 2022)

Clodagh said:



			I’ve said it before on here but I have no idea why we can’t follow Australia’s example. Dog licenses that are expensive for entires and cheap for neuters. Tags that are colour coded so at a glance you can see if they are up to date. A robust dog warden presence with fines that are doled out quite briskly for misdemeanours. I’m not saying (before anyone Google’s!) that no one ever gets bitten in Oz but let’s at least make a bit of an effort.
		
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Boulder Colorado (a state which doesn't appear to have a blanket ban on Cane Corsos) has a great system of colour coded tags for leash requirements, assessments to determine these etc.

Northern Ireland does not issue tags any more but still licences and there is a discount for neutered animals. There used to be the colour coded ones but I guess that was too expensive.


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## splashgirl45 (4 October 2022)

Clodagh said:



			I’ve said it before on here but I have no idea why we can’t follow Australia’s example. Dog licenses that are expensive for entires and cheap for neuters. Tags that are colour coded so at a glance you can see if they are up to date. A robust dog warden presence with fines that are doled out quite briskly for misdemeanours. I’m not saying (before anyone Google’s!) that no one ever gets bitten in Oz but let’s at least make a bit of an effort.
		
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The trouble is this country is too meek and mild to carry out stern enough measures regarding other crimes so we have no chance of a rigorous system to sort out dangerous dogs…. If licenses are bought back I would think nearly all of us on here would stump up the money and obey the rules but the criminal element in society would just ignore it rather like the horse passport fiasco.  I don’t see an answer to be honest.


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## Clodagh (4 October 2022)

splashgirl45 said:



			The trouble is this country is too meek and mild to carry out stern enough measures regarding other crimes so we have no chance of a rigorous system to sort out dangerous dogs…. If licenses are bought back I would think nearly all of us on here would stump up the money and obey the rules but the criminal element in society would just ignore it rather like the horse passport fiasco.  I don’t see an answer to be honest.
		
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I absolutely see that but in Oz they are robust and do seize dogs and they are pts in 7 days ( or did in my day). Agree we are too pathetic.


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## stangs (4 October 2022)

bonny said:



			There isn’t any other way to stop these attacks other than by looking at breeds ?
		
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Realistically, the only way to stop these attacks would be to create a society where people like their owners - whether that be people who don't understand dog behaviour, or people who want their dogs to behave like this, or people who don't care enough to give their dogs a good upbringing - didn't exist, or didn't get the chance to own a dog. But, unfortunately, people seem to think it's a human right to have a dog, even when they can't provide a good home, and no one can control what the dodgy types get up to, so the breeds end up taking the fall instead.
.


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## Cortez (4 October 2022)

I didn't realise you lot don't have dog licencing, do you also not have dog wardens? IMO some breeds should be banned, never mind the "bad dogs have bad owners" stuff; *no one* who is not a member of the police or the armed forces needs a dog that is designed to bite and hold, nor one that is bred to be aggressive. If you love the bully breeds or the guardian breeds, or the fighting breeds, tough. Go find another type of dog to love.


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## SilverLinings (4 October 2022)

splashgirl45 said:



			The trouble is this country is too meek and mild to carry out stern enough measures regarding other crimes so we have no chance of a rigorous system to sort out dangerous dogs…. If licenses are bought back I would think nearly all of us on here would stump up the money and obey the rules but the criminal element in society would just ignore it rather like the horse passport fiasco.  I don’t see an answer to be honest.
		
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The money raised from dog licenses should be used to employ more dog wardens, and dog wardens or police who spoted a dog without a license tag should seize it and fine the owner. Dog wardens could also scan microchips to check that the dog is licensed if they suspect the tag is fraudulent. There would still be some people who didn't bother, but hopefully over time that number would shrink. 

Making entire dogs more expensive to license and making the breeder responsible for the puppies' initial licensing would cut down on indiscriminate breeding too- particularly the type who breed without even the financial reserves to pay when the bitch/puppies have a veterinary emergency.


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## splashgirl45 (4 October 2022)

All good ideas on here but sadly we are not in charge and animal welfare is low on the list of things to do.  I agree, there should be more dog wardens and they should have the power to seize dogs who are not chipped Or licensed (if we had licensing) and there should be a crackdown on back street breeders who are breeding the wrong temperament and have no regard for the well being of the dogs by breeding these X-LARGE bully breeds, who are deformed and have trouble breathing…. We also need to stop the business of so called foreign rescues who are trapping street dogs and sending them here to an uncertain future, but that it still going on


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## CorvusCorax (4 October 2022)

Cortez said:



*no one* who is not a member of the police or the armed forces needs a dog that is designed to bite and hold.
		
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Almost every utilisation of dogs on the planet comes from adapting a dog's natural desire to possess and hold.
Their mouths are their hands.
Prey/food and the need to survive is the primary drive and we've just adapted it to our own ends.
Gundogs too, although they have been selectively bred to have softer mouths, still need to be able to hold.
Terriers and lurchers/sighthounds, as far as I am aware, do not negotiate their quarry to death.
Any dog engaged in a sport requiring a retrieve.
Search and rescue dogs.
Detection dogs.
Assistance dogs.
And all the police and armed forces dogs who are bred/raised by civilians.

Everyone is for banning entire breeds until it comes to their breed, or type, or all dogs in general.


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## Morwenna (4 October 2022)

Of course some dogs naturally have soft mouths or are trained to but that doesn’t mean that can’t cause significant damage if they want to. Yes, certain dogs have stronger jaws and a breed history of being trained to bite and not let go, but any dog is capable of inflicting serious harm. Banning breeds doesn’t seem to work. I’d far rather owners had to be licensed, and any unlicensed dogs could be seized regardless of breed.


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## YorksG (4 October 2022)

We have had labradors who could carry an egg without breaking it, the same dogs could break through a tin can, to get to dog food. They all have teeth and all know how to use them.


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## stangs (4 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			Terriers and lurchers/sighthounds, as far as I am aware, do not negotiate their quarry to death.
		
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I love the imagery of a JRT doing a Yes Minister impression until its squirrel prey collapses from exhaustion.


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## twiggy2 (4 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			Almost every utilisation of dogs on the planet comes from adapting a dog's natural desire to possess and hold.
Their mouths are their hands.
Prey/food and the need to survive is the primary drive and we've just adapted it to our own ends.
Gundogs too, although they have been selectively bred to have softer mouths, still need to be able to hold.
Terriers and lurchers/sighthounds, as far as I am aware, do not negotiate their quarry to death.
Any dog engaged in a sport requiring a retrieve.
Search and rescue dogs.
Detection dogs.
Assistance dogs.
And all the police and armed forces dogs who are bred/raised by civilians.

Everyone is for banning entire breeds until it comes to their breed, or type, or all dogs in general.
		
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Lurchers catching rabbits and hare should retrieve live to hand


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## CorvusCorax (4 October 2022)

twiggy2 said:



			Lurchers catching rabbits and hare should retrieve live to hand
		
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Using what part of their anatomy?


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## twiggy2 (4 October 2022)

Teeth, I don't dispute what your saying about dogs and teeth just wanted to point out in an ideal world a rabbiting lurcher should have enough control over its mouth to hang on to a kicking rabbit or even hare but not bruise or kill it, it always amazes me what we expect dogs to do. It would take a fair amount of strength to hold onto a hare for sure so you grip and hold all the way.
It seems many people dont realise that ideally lurcher should be as soft mouthed as gundog.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (4 October 2022)

Stop banning dog breeds, license breeders. Ensure they have appropraite evaluation forms for the puppies they sell and track puppies/owners rigorously. Impose more restrictions/hoops to jump through for those who take on dogs with a higher risk - bullys, Shepherds, Malis, Huskys, Chow Chows and Rotties etc etc. Ensure those who buy stupid breeds that shouldn't exist (brachy dogs) take their pets for check ups every 3 months to make sure they are doing right by the animal. Anyone who doesn't has the dogs destroyed at 14 days if they cannot show that they aren't willing to comply with training/vet/socialisation requirements. Charge breeders a fee, lesser fee for rare breeds, higher fee for bully breeds/those we could do with less of. Use that money to fund dog wardens and the kennels I mention above.


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## CorvusCorax (4 October 2022)

twiggy2 said:



			Teeth, I don't dispute what your saying about dogs and teeth just wanted to point out in an ideal world a rabbiting lurcher should have enough control over its mouth to hang on to a kicking rabbit or even hare but not bruise or kill it, it always amazes me what we expect dogs to do. It would take a fair amount of strength to hold onto a hare for sure so you grip and hold all the way.
It seems many people dont realise that ideally lurcher should be as soft mouthed as gundog.
		
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I know lurchers run a wide gamut, but some types are equally capable of a strong crushing bite, as I'm sure you know!


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## Cortez (4 October 2022)

I'm struggling to understand the logic here. If, for arguments sake,  American Bulldogs were banned, then 100% of the people killed by American Bulldogs would not be dead, no?


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## ester (4 October 2022)

Depends what they had instead


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## CorvusCorax (4 October 2022)

Sorry to get the nit comb out again, but American Bulldogs and American bullies are not the same thing. It did confuse the crap out of me as well for a while.


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## stangs (4 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			I'm struggling to understand the logic here. If, for arguments sake,  American Bulldogs were banned, then 100% of the people killed by American Bulldogs would not be dead, no?
		
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Then they would have been killed by a  GSD, Cane Corso, husky, etc, instead. In a world where XL bullies didn’t exist, their owners would buy a similar sort of breed. They wouldn’t have chosen a newfie.


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## ester (4 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			Sorry to get the nit comb out again, but American Bulldogs and American bullies are not the same thing. It did confuse the crap out of me as well for a while.
		
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Glad you said it 🤣


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## Cortez (4 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			Sorry to get the nit comb out again, but American Bulldogs and American bullies are not the same thing. It did confuse the crap out of me as well for a while.
		
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Sorry, not an afficionado. For narrative run, let's just assume that I'm talking about whichever dog breeds are most responsible for inflicting death and injury, eh? And let's also assume that those would be the breeds most sensible to not have around. I don't find this idea all that hard to understand.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (4 October 2022)

Or they would have a 'staffie x mastiff' that's just really big and muscular for it's age.. much like these 'staffies' that are actually pit bulls. Or the 'American Bull Dog mix' which is actually a Dogo Argentino


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## splashgirl45 (5 October 2022)

twiggy2 said:



			Teeth, I don't dispute what your saying about dogs and teeth just wanted to point out in an ideal world a rabbiting lurcher should have enough control over its mouth to hang on to a kicking rabbit or even hare but not bruise or kill it, it always amazes me what we expect dogs to do. It would take a fair amount of strength to hold onto a hare for sure so you grip and hold all the way.
It seems many people dont realise that ideally lurcher should be as soft mouthed as gundog.
		
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Why would you want a lurcher to not kill a rabbit but to bring it back alive?  Seems an odd idea


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## MurphysMinder (5 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			I'm struggling to understand the logic here. If, for arguments sake,  American Bulldogs were banned, then 100% of the people killed by American Bulldogs would not be dead, no?
		
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Banning hasn't exactly worked for Pitbulls has it.   Logically they should have disappeared years ago.


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## Cortez (5 October 2022)

MurphysMinder said:



			Banning hasn't exactly worked for Pitbulls has it.   Logically they should have disappeared years ago.
		
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Hasn’t worked because it hasn’t been applied, perhaps?


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## CorvusCorax (5 October 2022)

It has been applied. Dogs have been impounded, assessed, euthanised, been given muzzle/leash/neuter/chip orders etc etc etc.


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## Pearlsasinger (5 October 2022)

SilverLinings said:



			The money raised from dog licenses should be used to employ more dog wardens, and dog wardens or police who spoted a dog without a license tag should seize it and fine the owner. Dog wardens could also scan microchips to check that the dog is licensed if they suspect the tag is fraudulent. There would still be some people who didn't bother, but hopefully over time that number would shrink.

Making entire dogs more expensive to license and making the breeder responsible for the puppies' initial licensing would cut down on indiscriminate breeding too- particularly the type who breed without even the financial reserves to pay when the bitch/puppies have a veterinary emergency.
		
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The problem is that we don't have enough police officers to deal with major crime, let alone take notice of dog tags. Councils can't afford dog wardens.


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## MurphysMinder (5 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			Hasn’t worked because it hasn’t been applied, perhaps?
		
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It has certainly been applied,  plenty of dogs have been seized for being "of type" , often dogs that have done nothing wrong,  but just the tip of the iceberg.   It does seem that these hideous XL bullies (more so than America Bulldogs who can be lovely dogs) are taking over from pitbulls as status dogs ..


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## Cortez (5 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			It has been applied. Dogs have been impounded, assessed, euthanised, been given muzzle/leash/neuter/chip orders etc etc etc.
		
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So what happened? Did the impounders get bored? Obviously for a law to be effective it has to be applied to everyone, otherwise it's not going to work is it?


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## ester (5 October 2022)

Trying hard to think of any other crimes that the law obviously doesn’t work for because people still do them ….


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## Cortez (5 October 2022)

ester said:



			Trying hard to think of any other crimes that the law obviously doesn’t work for because people still do them ….
		
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Facetious. So do you have an solution or an explanation?


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## twiggy2 (5 October 2022)

splashgirl45 said:



			Why would you want a lurcher to not kill a rabbit but to bring it back alive?  Seems an odd idea
		
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You don't want the meat damaged or bruised in an ideal world or at least as little damage as possible, of the dog retrieves live to hand then you can dispatch it with a blow to the back of the head/neck so there is no damage to the bits you want to eat.


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## bonny (5 October 2022)

twiggy2 said:



			You don't want the meat damaged or bruised in an ideal world or at least as little damage as possible, of the dog retrieves live to hand then you can dispatch it with a blow to the back of the head/neck so there is no damage to the bits you want to eat.
		
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Lovely


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## splashgirl45 (5 October 2022)

A bit more distressing for the rabbit though, not my idea of fair hunting


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## CorvusCorax (5 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			So what happened? Did the impounders get bored? Obviously for a law to be effective it has to be applied to everyone, otherwise it's not going to work is it?
		
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I don't know why you are asking me, TBH. You said it wasn't being enforced and that's not my experience. Where it has been enforced, it's been done badly, IMO.

The legislation is still being enforced in towns and cities across the UK, most newspapers no longer have the time or resources to cover county court sittings and the high profile cases are only high profile because the owners kick up a stink or something dreadful has happened.
The fact remains that the people who want to own dogs like these just use or buy breeds/types which are not banned to create the type of dog that they want to own to get round it.

These things have been explained multiple times on multiple threads, some people want blanket bans, other people think that's a blunt instrument to deal with a societal problem of the way people see/treat dogs and there have been some excellent ideas and solutions IMO.

By the by, the dangerous dogs/restricted breed legislation in the Republic is a nonsense (APBTs aren't on the list, by the way).
There was a bit consultation carried out in 2018 and to date, absolutely jack has been done.


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## Cortez (5 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			I don't know why you are asking me, TBH. You said it wasn't being enforced and that's not my experience. Where it has been enforced, it's been done badly, IMO.

The legislation is still being enforced in towns and cities across the UK, most newspapers no longer have the time or resources to cover county court sittings and the high profile cases are only high profile because the owners kick up a stink or something dreadful has happened.
The fact remains that the people who want to own dogs like these just use or buy breeds/types which are not banned to create the type of dog that they want to own to get round it.

These things have been explained multiple times on multiple threads, some people want blanket bans, other people think that's a blunt instrument to deal with a societal problem of the way people see/treat dogs and there have been some excellent ideas and solutions IMO.

By the by, the dangerous dogs/restricted breed legislation in the Republic is a nonsense (APBTs aren't on the list, by the way).
There was a bit consultation carried out in 2018 and to date, absolutely jack has been done.
		
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Like I said, not an aficionado, I'm a pet dog owner with no axe to grind, but it seems ridiculous to me to allow people, especially irresponsible people, to possess potentially dangerous dogs. You seem to be against banning them, which is why I am asking for your point of view and/or any useful suggestions to solve the problem of people seemingly regularly being mauled by these types of dogs.


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## CorvusCorax (5 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			Like I said, not an aficionado, I'm a pet dog owner with no axe to grind, but it seems ridiculous to me to allow people, especially irresponsible people, to possess potentially dangerous dogs. You seem to be against banning them, which is why I am asking for your point of view and/or any useful suggestions to solve the problem of people seemingly regularly being mauled by these types of dogs.
		
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There have been loads of suggestions over multiple threads, including this one, to address the wider issue.

The added problem of banning a breed or type which has no actual registry is that it's incredibly labour intensive and expensive to try and prove what it is or isn't.


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## Cortez (5 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			There have been loads of suggestions over multiple threads, including this one, to address the wider issue.
		
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Thanks....


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## splashgirl45 (5 October 2022)

The trouble with banning the breed is that the authorities are taking no notice of the temperament of the individual.  There have been cases where good tempered family dogs have been seized  and kept in kennels for months which obviously will make the dogs a bit uncertain and frightened and then they decide to end its life away from all it knows …it’s so unfair on the dogs and their families..  there is one who was a crossbreed and had never done anything to either people of dogs and after a long campaign she was allowed back home but had to wear a muzzle and never be off lead again,  so sad for them..  if any of mine bit someone  and I was told they were likely to be PTS I would take them to my own vet ..as they are 2 tiny terriers and a small lurcher it’s unlikely but always possible


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## Fellewell (5 October 2022)

Why don't drug dealers use guns for protection? They're more reliable and don't eat anything. Yes I know they're illegal but so is drug dealing and exploiting a reactive dog. OK so these dogs pass hands for lots of money but what's the point of a protection dog if you're the one that needs protection from it?
I have seen these types of set-up, the dogs are kept in individual cages in someone's front room. They've never been socialised with each other and respect for humans is low on the agenda for obvious reasons. When you consider that two well-trained dogs can act as a pack on occasion then what hope is there for these? 
It's the breeding regulations that need tightening up. Nothing has really changed from what I've seen over the years and once these animals hit the ground it's too late.


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## Birker2020 (5 October 2022)

splashgirl45 said:



			The trouble with banning the breed is that the authorities are taking no notice of the temperament of the individual.  There have been cases where good tempered family dogs have been seized  and kept in kennels for months which obviously will make the dogs a bit uncertain and frightened and then they decide to end its life away from all it knows …it’s so unfair on the dogs and their families..
		
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in some cases they have been kept in kennels and HUGE expense to the tax payer for years and years.  Although I'm slightly sitting on the fence with some of these, because if you thought for one minute that your dog might be seized for 'looking like a pit bull terrier' you'd surely make sure it was muzzled in public anyway, regardless of whether they may be aggressive or not.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/218357.stm
If you don't want to click on the link here are five cases:

*Buster*: Saved from a death sentence in March this year after a battle lasting nearly four years and costing up to Ł50,000. When the dog, owned by Sandra Rowlands, of Kirkby, Merseyside, was seized in 1994, a magistrate ruled that the animal was a pit bull terrier and should be destroyed because it had been allowed out without a muzzle. But another magistrate ruled that Buster should be released.


*Hanky Panky:* This February a judge reversed a sentence ordering it to be put down. Last October magistrates ruled that the labrador-foxhound cross, owned by Elaine Enticknap, of Totnes, Devon, would have to die, after hearing how it had twice bitten postmen in the past four years. A judge ruled that it could live but should be rehoused in an escape-proof home.


*Kizzie:* Freed by the High Court in October, 1996 after spending four years under threat of death after it was alleged to be a pit bull terrier. The dog was ordered to be returned to its owner, Jeanette Cragg, of Tottenham, north London, after two judges ruled that the destruction order issued by a stipendiary magistrate was an abuse of court powers. Kennel Club vets disagreed with a police expert who decided it was a pit bull, saying it was "weedy" with a weak jaw and no signs of aggression.
*Otis:* Destroyed in February 1996 after being on death row for more than three years. The dog was seized as a pit bull type terrier unmuzzled in the back of owner Harry Bates's car. Mr Bates, who spent Ł50,000 trying to save it, contended his car was not a public place, and that Otis was not a pit bull terrier, but an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights failed because it should have been lodged within 14 days of the dog's seizure.


*Dempsey*: Saved in November 1995 when two High Court judges ruled that it should be returned to its owner Dianne Fanneran, of Hanwell, west London. The pit bull terrier was originally condemned to destruction by Ealing magistrates in 1992 after being found walked in the street without a muzzle by Mrs Fanneran's nephew. Magistrates were told the muzzle had been removed because the dog was sick. The High Court judges decided that there had been a breach of natural justice because Mrs Fanneran had not been informed of a hearing by magistrates.


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## CorvusCorax (5 October 2022)

If you want more recent cases (less than 25 years ago), check out those of, for example, Hank and Lennox, both in Northern Ireland.

The dog trainer Jo-Rosie Haffenden's dog Archie was subject to an exemption under the DDA, before she relocated to Spain.


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## Birker2020 (5 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			If you want more recent cases (less than 25 years ago), check out those of, for example, Hank and Lennox, both in Northern Ireland.

The dog trainer Jo-Rosie Haffenden's dog Archie was subject to an exemption under the DDA, before she relocated to Spain.
		
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Yes I remember the Hank and Lennox dogs.  One of the dogs lived in NI and the man who assessed them both wasn't even by his own admission a dog behaviourist.  The whole thing was/is a total mess.


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## CorvusCorax (5 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Yes I remember the Hank and Lennox dogs.  One of the dogs lived in NI and the man who assessed them both wasn't even by his own admission a dog behaviourist.  The whole thing was/is a total mess.
		
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They were both in NI. The Lennox case was handled dreadfully and one of his owners did not help in the initial dealings they had with the authorities, unfortunately for the dog.


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## bonny (5 October 2022)

The only thing really that will improve the situation with dangerous dogs is if people stop paying thousands for them. As long as there is a lucrative market then others will continue churning them out, it’s an easy way to make lots of money. If somehow we could have a situation where dogs were only worth say £500 regardless of breed then it wouldn’t be worth breeding them in such huge numbers and dogs could go back to being seen as pets rather than status symbols. No idea how it could be enforced though.


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## CorvusCorax (5 October 2022)

Yeah for sure people need to stop paying crazy amounts for ALL dogs.


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## Amymay (5 October 2022)

bonny said:



			The only thing really that will improve the situation with dangerous dogs is if people stop paying thousands for them. As long as there is a lucrative market then others will continue churning them out, it’s an easy way to make lots of money. If somehow we could have a situation where dogs were only worth say £500 regardless of breed then it wouldn’t be worth breeding them in such huge numbers and dogs could go back to being seen as pets rather than status symbols. No idea how it could be enforced though.
		
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Yes, but remember in the situation of the Bully and Micro Bully market, nothing is done above board. So legislation of any kind would have no effect.


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## Smitty (5 October 2022)

Honestly, I don't think anything can be done.  There are still Put Bull half breeds being freely advertised on the internet, despite becoming a banned breed some 20 odd years ago, dog fighting still goes on here and in Ireland, many dogs not chipped, not to mention no name tag and the majority of people who desire these tough man dogs are going to get them anyway, whether the breeder is licensed or operates from a basement flat.

I truly believe we are stuck with this an a burdgening problem, more people will die from dog attacks and I can't see that anything enforceable can be done to stop the increased breeding of dogs that are capable of causing serious injury in the inevitably wrong hands they invariably find themselves in.

There needs to be a society wide rethink about the types of dogs we want in our lives and that, I don't believe, will ever happen.  It's not going to be effected by any legislation.


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## stangs (5 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			it seems ridiculous to me to allow people, especially irresponsible people, to possess potentially dangerous dogs.
		
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Every dog is "potentially dangerous".


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## stangs (5 October 2022)

Fellewell said:



			Why don't drug dealers use guns for protection? They're more reliable and don't eat anything. Yes I know they're illegal but so is drug dealing and exploiting a reactive dog. OK so these dogs pass hands for lots of money but what's the point of a protection dog if you're the one that needs protection from it?
		
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a) Please let's not start encouraging drug dealers to buy more guns (though I appreciate there's probably not too many drug dealers looking for dog tips on HHO).
b) "Exploiting a reactive dog" isn't a crime (or else everyone who's made one of those 'funny' videos by upsetting their Bichon Frise would be in prison)
c) They're not protection dogs. They're not trained to protect. Their sole purpose is intimidation.
.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (5 October 2022)

stangs said:



			a) Please let's not start encouraging drug dealers to buy more guns (though I appreciate there's probably not too many drug dealers looking for dog tips on HHO).
b) "Exploiting a reactive dog" isn't a crime (or else everyone who's made one of those 'funny' videos by upsetting their Bichon Frise would be in prison)
c) They're not protection dogs. They're not trained to protect. Their sole purpose is intimidation.
.

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Lots of these types of dogs are being trained as 'potection dogs' - I have seen a real surge in bite training, incredibly badly done, by people who don't know nearly enough and with owners who don't know what to do with, and really don't need, dogs 'trained' this way. If they aren't being specifically trained, then a lot of these status dogs aren't being trained out of signs of unsavoury behaviour as people think they will protect the home, or they feel like a big man with a snarling dog on the end of some sort of chain/leather lead..


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## Cortez (5 October 2022)

stangs said:



			Every dog is "potentially dangerous".
		
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That's a trite response, and not a particularly helpful addition to the debate - very few people have been mauled to death by spaniels. As you are well aware there is a huge weighting towards bull breeds when looking at serious and fatal dog attacks.


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## cbmcts (5 October 2022)

Also don't forget that the lockdown dogs - anything with 4 legs, a body and some sort of head, tail and ears not essential - are now young adults. Many are unsocialised, untrained, in unsuitable homes with owners whose lives have now gone back to 'normal'. They were bought without thought or even considering breed traits and the owners had minimal support (for those who might have sought it) when trainers/classes were in short supply. Considering how badly bred most of those dogs were, it is a miracle that more people haven't been seriously injured. I'm not just looking at the classic 'devil' dogs mentioned on this thread but using anecdata and talk among rescues, some of the labradoodle types are causing big issues as are boxers, labs, GRs, husky types, spaniels and other non typical breeds. The other thing I've noted is how many Patterdales there are at the moment - I adore terriers but they are hardcore and generally not ideal family pets...

I am very anti breed legislation. Well I would be, owning rotts but mainly because it's been proven over many years to not reduce dog attacks and deaths. You can have an approved breed and still have a dangerous dog if you are either an ineffectual handler or someone who wants a status dog. Any breed can be dangerous even though bigger dogs have the potential to do more damage but if you are young, small, elderly, have an underlying health condition, you may be at risk of serious injury or death if attacked by even a small dog. The 'ban the breed' cry is a knee jerk reaction to a people problem, until those people can be banned from owning any dog, there will still -sadly - deaths caused by dogs. While each death or serious injury is a terrible tragedy, let's also remember that there are now millions of dogs in this country and those that kill someone are a tiny, tiny percentage of that number. It should be 0% but realistically that it is unlikely to ever happen.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (5 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			That's a trite response, and not a particularly helpful addition to the debate - very few people have been mauled to death by spaniels. As you are well aware there is a huge weighting towards bull breeds when looking at serious and fatal dog attacks.
		
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Agreed, plus if a 1kg Chihuahua is going for me, a swift kick to the head is going to do a lot more good than kicking a 60kg XL Bully that is going for me.. so they're all dangerous but it's a completely facetious thing to say.


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## stangs (5 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			That's a trite response, and not a particularly helpful addition to the debate - very few people have been mauled to death by spaniels. As you are well aware there is a huge weighting towards bull breeds when looking at serious and fatal dog attacks.
		
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I didn't think it needed an explanation but all dogs can injury or kill someone. A Chihuahua could kill a baby if left alone with it - which could easily happen with an irresponsible owner. You wrote that you thought people shouldn't be allowed to own "potentially dangerous dogs". However, given that all dogs fit this category, some more than others, it would be impossible to write the legislation that you seem to be advocating for.

How many breeds would you ban until you were satisfied that the dangerous dogs were gone (not that banning breeds gets rid of them)? XL bullies, sure, but then you'd have to ban staffies because they're used to breed pitbull types, even though every staffy I've met has been a lovely person. No one has been mauled to death in the UK by Kangals, so would you keep them or ban them because they're a LGD? But that's not enough. A husky killed someone not long ago, so we have to ban huskies as well. Rotties and dobermans need to go too because they were originally bred to be dangerous, and have killed people. GSDs too, to be on the safe side, as they've also killed - though they're one of the most popular breeds in the UK, so quite a few owners will be upset with you for that one. And we can't forget about banning Cane Corsos, but again you can create their type with the right mastiff cross, so do we ban every mastiff breed? A Malamute killed someone in 2014 so let's get rid of them, because they're also "potentially dangerous". Border collies and JRTs have mauled and killed babies, so we can't allow anyone to own them either. Now, I almost got attacked by two springer spaniels last year - the only reason I don't have a chunk missing from my thigh is because they were muzzled, luckily - so, personally, I'd like spaniels banned too. Just to be on the safe side. Because they're potentially dangerous. Is that enough banned breeds for you, or do you think there are more "potentially dangerous" dogs around?

Or say you just decide to ban XL bullies. Still doesn't work: either you end up with hundreds of mastiff x staffies to create the same type, or you follow the DDA's attitude to pitbulls, which means someone's family pet either spends the rest of its life in a muzzle or gets PTS because it had the characteristics of a breed that it isn't?

What isn't a particularly helpful addition to the debate is how you're parroting the same idea though countless people have already explained why breed-specific legislation doesn't work.


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## ester (5 October 2022)

To some extent if they are only killing their owners I don't feel as terrible about it.


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## Cortez (5 October 2022)

stangs said:



			I didn't think it needed an explanation but all dogs can injury or kill someone. A Chihuahua could kill a baby if left alone with it - which could easily happen with an irresponsible owner. You wrote that you thought people shouldn't be allowed to own "potentially dangerous dogs". However, given that all dogs fit this category, some more than others, it would be impossible to write the legislation that you seem to be advocating for.

How many breeds would you ban until you were satisfied that the dangerous dogs were gone (not that banning breeds gets rid of them)? XL bullies, sure, but then you'd have to ban staffies because they're used to breed pitbull types, even though every staffy I've met has been a lovely person. No one has been mauled to death in the UK by Kangals, so would you keep them or ban them because they're a LGD? But that's not enough. A husky killed someone not long ago, so we have to ban huskies as well. Rotties and dobermans need to go too because they were originally bred to be dangerous, and have killed people. GSDs too, to be on the safe side, as they've also killed - though they're one of the most popular breeds in the UK, so quite a few owners will be upset with you for that one. And we can't forget about banning Cane Corsos, but again you can create their type with the right mastiff cross, so do we ban every mastiff breed? A Malamute killed someone in 2014 so let's get rid of them, because they're also "potentially dangerous". Border collies and JRTs have mauled and killed babies, so we can't allow anyone to own them either. Now, I almost got attacked by two springer spaniels last year - the only reason I don't have a chunk missing from my thigh is because they were muzzled, luckily - so, personally, I'd like spaniels banned too. Just to be on the safe side. Because they're potentially dangerous. Is that enough banned breeds for you, or do you think there are more "potentially dangerous" dogs around?

Or say you just decide to ban XL bullies. Still doesn't work: either you end up with hundreds of mastiff x staffies to create the same type, or you follow the DDA's attitude to pitbulls, which means someone's family pet either spends the rest of its life in a muzzle or gets PTS because it had the characteristics of a breed that it isn't?

What isn't a particularly helpful addition to the debate is how you're parroting the same idea though countless people have already explained why breed-specific legislation doesn't work.
		
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Goodness, why are some people being so snide? I love a good debate, but it really adds nothing if you're just going to be immature. I personally am obviously not going to be in charge of any legislation, so asking me to compile a list of dogs is not very useful, although for the record I really don’t see why people feel the need to own many of the breeds you have listed. I'm sure someone, somewhere, at some time, has been killed by every breed of dog that exists; that really has no bearing on the argument. Neither does the fact that dear old Killer the staffie is a big softie and everybody loves him. The facts are that most serious and fatal dog attacks are perpetrated by dogs of an identifiable type. I therefore feel that it is not unreasonable to contemplate controls. Or is everyone happy to just carry on and let the staus quo continue?

PS  I am not a parrot.


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## Books'n'dogs (5 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			I didn't realise you lot don't have dog licencing, do you also not have dog wardens? IMO some breeds should be banned, never mind the "bad dogs have bad owners" stuff; *no one* who is not a member of the police or the armed forces needs a dog that is designed to bite and hold, nor one that is bred to be aggressive. If you love the bully breeds or the guardian breeds, or the fighting breeds, tough. Go find another type of dog to love.
		
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I respectfully disagree that people other than the police or military shouldn't be allowed to own the breeds often deemed dangerous. I shared my life with a German Shepherd for over 12 years and she never bit anyone, vets always told me they wished all of their patients were as sweet and compliant with them as she was, the vet who put her to sleep in March cried almost as hard as I did. I have been around a lot of German Shepherds in my life and there has only been one who was a dangerous dog and that *was* the owner's fault (said owner shouldn't have owned any type of dog, much less a powerful breed). I know there are poorly bred German Shepherds as well as idiots who have no business owning the breed but in my experience the vast majority of people who own them are very responsible.

The two worst dog bites I am personally aware of were a neighbor's (poorly bred) Labrador Retriever who mauled a child in the household, the adults in the family were on the scene and quickly intervened but serious damage was still done. The other was a friend of one of my brothers who was attacked by an English Springer Spaniel as he walked past the dog's home, the attack was bad enough that the young man spent over a week in the hospital in the summer of 2020 and there were concerns his leg may have to be amputated because of an infection that set in, the victim went from liking dogs to being completely terrified of them. The only dogs I've been bit by were a German Shorthaired Pointer (in the face as a 3 year old child) and an American Cocker Spaniel (in the hand, also at the age of 3). Any dog can inflict serious damage if it wants to and thanks to indiscriminate breeding and stupid owners there are plenty that do, regardless of the breed or type.


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## planete (5 October 2022)

I agree if we are going to do something then the most powerful breeds should be more tightly controlled as being the ones which can inflict the most severe damage.  I would not go by breed but by weight at one year old.  Perhaps all owners of larger dogs (bigger than a chihuahua?) should be licensed?  Not the dogs, the owners.  They would need to attend training classes for  dog behaviour and management  and be able to demonstrate control of the dogs after a set training course. It would not stop bites from chihuahuas of course but that is a risk I would be willing to take.  Fantasy land of course, just trying to veer from the usual re-hashed arguments.


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## CorvusCorax (5 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			Goodness, why are some people being so snide?
		
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Ah now, come on 😉


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## stangs (5 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			Goodness, why are some people being so snide? I love a good debate, but it really adds nothing if you're just going to be immature. I personally am obviously not going to be in charge of any legislation, so asking me to compile a list of dogs is not very useful, although for the record I really don’t see why people feel the need to own many of the breeds you have listed. I'm sure someone, somewhere, at some time, has been killed by every breed of dog that exists; that really has no bearing on the argument. Neither does the fact that dear old Killer the staffie is a big softie and everybody loves him. The facts are that most serious and fatal dog attacks are perpetrated by dogs of an identifiable type. I therefore feel that it is not unreasonable to contemplate controls. Or is everyone happy to just carry on and let the staus quo continue?
		
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The trick of calling people 'snide' when they're raised a genuine problem with your argument is a good one, I'll have to use it sometime.

To summarise:
As you correctly stated here, almost all, if not all, breeds have killed someone.
Bull breeds are currently the favoured breed for many groups of people, especially those looking to feel protected or to intimidate others.
As a result of their large population in the aforementioned circles, not just their build [1], they've killed several people in recent years.
If you were to somehow come up with legislation that successfully got rid of them, people would look to different breeds to fill that same niche.
As a result, there'd be an increase in fatal attacks from those breeds.
Then you'd be on here posting that those breeds need to be controlled because they're involved in so many attacks.

There is no end to this cycle if you support breed-specific legislation, because, fundamentally, the owners are the problem, not the dogs. That's what any legislation needs to target.

[1] theirs is not the only build bred to cause injuries
.


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## honetpot (5 October 2022)

I once watched a programme many years ago where they were investigating how an elderly woman was killed, they thought by a group of small dogs, terrier size, she had been left with.
With hidden cameras they left someone of her size in the position where she was found, with the dogs, and it was shown as soon as the substitute started to fail or make noises they started to attack working as a pack. I think any dog given the right circumstances will attack, seeing it's victim as a threat, or prey, it's a instinct that is only controlled by habituation and training and every breed or size is just as capable of causing harm.
https://time.com/5280769/dog-attack-dachshund-woman-oklahoma-death/


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (5 October 2022)

honetpot said:



			I once watched a programme many years ago where they were investigating how an elderly woman was killed, they thought by a group of small dogs, terrier size, she had been left with.
With hidden cameras they left someone of her size in the position where she was found, with the dogs, and it was shown as soon as the substitute started to fail or make noises they started to attack working as a pack. I think any dog given the right circumstances will attack, seeing it's victim as a threat, or prey, it's a instinct that is only controlled by habituation and training and every breed or size is just as capable of causing harm
		
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yes, but if I have understood your post correctly, she was already down and ailing somewhat either from a fall or what have you; like somtimes when you see a dog having attacked when the owner has had an epileptic fit. That's vastly different to a dog going for an adult in normal every day circumstances.


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## ycbm (5 October 2022)

stangs said:



			As you correctly stated here, almost all, if not all, breeds have killed someone
		
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I'd want to see your evidence on that.  I've never heard of a yorkie, westie, scottie, Jack Russel, shitzu, mini dachshund, bichon frise, poodle, St Bernard, whippet, greyhound,  .....   killing anyone?


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## cbmcts (5 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			The facts are that most serious and fatal dog attacks are perpetrated by dogs of an identifiable type. I therefore feel that it is not unreasonable to contemplate controls. Or is everyone happy to just carry on and let the staus quo continue?

PS  I am not a parrot.
		
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In my opinion, for the whole tuppence ha'penny it's worth, we need to stop looking at the dogs involved and look hard at the people responsible for them. They are the ones at fault here. But societies attitudes will have to radically change for that to happen. Personal responsibility is sadly lacking as are consequences which should be kicking in at a much earlier stage than an actual attack because I find it very hard to believe that that the first time a dog has reacted is a fatal attack. 

Usually financial carrots and sticks are effective. Dog licences could work but is there the infrastructure in place or the will to put it in? Probably not! But if at least third party insurance was compulsory - yes I know, not infallible as we know with microchips - that would make some people think a little harder about their choice of breed. Underwriting could help, one bed flat in town, the premium for a BC, Mali would be dear. However something more suitable, lower price. Proven training such as KC levels could give the equivalent of car no claims bonus's until your insurance premium is tiny. End result would be a civilised dog with an educated owner. Maybe then the resources would be available to deal with the minority of owners that flout the law?


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## Gloi (5 October 2022)

I'd like there to be strict controls on any dogs over a certain size/weight.


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## ycbm (5 October 2022)

cbmcts said:



			In my opinion, for the whole tuppence ha'penny it's worth, we need to stop looking at the dogs involved and look hard at the people responsible for them.
		
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I don't agree I'm afraid.  I've been in court and signed a death warrant for an Akita cross.  I don't think you can stop people who are completely unsuitable from owning dogs,  in any way that would be workable.  I think it would be far easier to control the ownership of dog breeds which are capable of easily killing a human.  

For a start I don't see why any dog over a certain size shouldn't be required to be muzzled if off lead in public, with heavy penalties if they aren't and they damage a human or another animal. 
.


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## CorvusCorax (5 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			I'd want to see your evidence on that.  I've never heard of a yorkie, westie, scottie, Jack Russel, shitzu, mini dachshund, bichon frise, poodle, St Bernard, whippet, greyhound,  .....   killing anyone?
		
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/apr/09/baby-died-bitten-jack-russell

There was actually a post about it on this forum. JRTs or crosses have been implicated in more than one death. I think it's on that Wiki link posted earlier.


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## ycbm (5 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/apr/09/baby-died-bitten-jack-russell

There was actually a post about it on this forum. JRTs or crosses have been implicated in more than one death. I think it's on that Wiki link posted earlier.
		
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Small we runn through every one of the "almost all dog breeds" that Stangs claims has killed a person? 
.


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## fiwen30 (5 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			I don't agree I'm afraid.  I've been in court and signed a death warrant for an Akita cross.  I don't think you can stop people who are completely unsuitable from owning dogs,  in any way that would be workable.  I think it would be far easier to control the ownership of dog breeds which are capable of easily killing a human. 

*For a start I don't see why any dog over a certain size shouldn't be required to be muzzled if off lead in public, with heavy penalties if they aren't and they damage a human or another animal.*
.
		
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Was actually just popping in to raise this potential scenario - a basket muzzle for every dog, out in public? Yay or nay?

I think I’d go yay - reduces danger to wildlife, humans, other dogs etc., and reduces likelihood of eating things which might make a dog sick. Only downside might be if it is out of sight and gets caught up somewhere.


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## CorvusCorax (5 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			Small we runn through every one of the "almost all dog breeds" that Stangs claims has killed a person?
.
		
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Shall we tackle the widespread societal problem and improve all legislation relating to the breeding and ownership of dogs?


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## honetpot (5 October 2022)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			yes, but if I have understood your post correctly, she was already down and ailing somewhat either from a fall or what have you; like somtimes when you see a dog having attacked when the owner has had an epileptic fit. That's vastly different to a dog going for an adult in normal every day circumstances.
		
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The programme I saw the victim was found on a couch, she may have been unwell before the attack. In the investigation, when the substitute laid still, the dogs ignore them, it was movement and sound that stimulated them to attack. There are also other reports on small dogs being involved in deaths of people, this is why children should never be left with even household pets on their own.
  I can not find a link to the original programme which showed the film of the behaviour, in the US dog attack deaths seem to be common, and so have been studied.
https://www.livescience.com/61241-how-often-do-dogs-maul-owners.html


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## Cortez (5 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/apr/09/baby-died-bitten-jack-russell

There was actually a post about it on this forum. JRTs or crosses have been implicated in more than one death. I think it's on that Wiki link posted earlier.
		
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Babies have been killed by cats, but I agree Jack Russells are not stable dogs (I have had a few), and I'd never trust one with a young child.


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## stangs (5 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			I'd want to see your evidence on that. I've never heard of a yorkie, westie, scottie, Jack Russel, shitzu, mini dachshund, bichon frise, poodle, St Bernard, whippet, greyhound, ..... killing anyone?
		
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a) I like the way you criticised me here but not Cortez who made the same generalisation. Neat trick.
b) If I add a "could" before the "have", will that appease you?
c) Is fatalities the only criterion for a dog to be dangerous - is mauling not enough? Because, if that's the case, then this dog wasn't dangerous.

JRTs have killed several kids. St Bernards have mauled [x] [x]. Greyhounds have mauled [x]. Dauschunds have mauled [x]. Poodles have mauled [x]. Am I free to go yet, miss?


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## ycbm (5 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			Shall we tackle the widespread societal problem and improve all legislation relating to the breeding and ownership of dogs?
		
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That too,  but you will never get all humans, without exception,  to behave reasonably.  
.


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## CorvusCorax (5 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			Babies have been killed by cats, but I agree Jack Russells are not stable dogs (I have had a few), and I'd never trust one with a young child.
		
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It's often been noted that if they were Labrador-sized, they'd be on the DDA list.


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## Cortez (5 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			It's often been noted that if they were Labrador-sized, they'd be on the DDA list.
		
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They are Labrador-sized in their heads!


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## ycbm (5 October 2022)

stangs said:



			JRTs have killed several kids. St Bernards have mauled [x] [x]. Greyhounds have mauled [x]. Dauschunds have mauled [x]. Poodles have mauled [x]. Am I free to go yet, miss?
		
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Not really.  If you give me a choice between being mauled by a JRT, a standard poodle, a rottweiler and an American XL bully, my choice will be that order, on the basis of likelihood of my survival if the length and ferocity of the attack is equal for each dog.
.


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## Equi (5 October 2022)

ester said:



			To some extent if they are only killing their owners I don't feel as terrible about it.
		
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The problem is in many of the cases it’s not the owners. It’s nearly always the same story of someone known to the owner and the dogs who had to go into the house for some reason and the dog has killed them.


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## stangs (5 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			Not really.  If you give me a choice between being mauled by a JRT, a standard poodle, a rottweiler and an American XL bully, my choice will be that order, on the basis of likelihood of my survival if the length and ferocity of the attack is equal for each dog.
.
		
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So your idea for legislation is crack down on XL bullies, but let people get mauled by the rest? How is that going to decrease dog bites and make for a safer society?


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## CorvusCorax (5 October 2022)

OK here's where language is important.

As I've said before, ad nauseum, very few people get 'gored to death' by cattle, they get headbutted or trampled or crushed, because very few cows have horns, but people only remember the headlines.

Similarly, not everyone who dies after a dog incident is 'mauled to death'. Sometimes the biting, if it happens, is fairly superficial.
And this is not to negate any death.

Some are knocked over and hit their heads.
Some have heart attacks.
Some go into shock.
Some get blood poisoning/infection.
Some are already fitting and the bite injuries are secondary.

But again, very few people read the inquests.

Anyone who thinks getting bitten by a smaller, less 'butch' dog than an XL bully doesn't hurt LF or cause damage, hasn't been bitten.
My friend's son recently had plastic surgery after he was bitten on the face by a Golden Retriever.


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## Fellewell (5 October 2022)

stangs said:



			a) Please let's not start encouraging drug dealers to buy more guns (though I appreciate there's probably not too many drug dealers looking for dog tips on HHO).
b) "Exploiting a reactive dog" isn't a crime (or else everyone who's made one of those 'funny' videos by upsetting their Bichon Frise would be in prison)
c) They're not protection dogs. They're not trained to protect. Their sole purpose is intimidation.
.

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A) They don't need encouragement
B) Depends on your definition of reactive but IME truly reactive dogs do not engage at all. There is no bite inhibition even if it has been taught to a degree. In short, they have the potential to be dangerous depending on other variables, many of which have been 'discussed' on this thread. I just don't like the 'dangerous dog' tag.
As for watching someone torment a Bichon for entertainment, why would I want to watch that? Perhaps they should be locked up.
C) See post below #120 for DIY manwork and how it happens.


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## Slightlyconfused (5 October 2022)

Michen said:



			The breed has everything to do with it. You don't hear about packs of spaniels attacking and killing people.

As for that labrador story, given the number of labs vs number of bull breeds and the frequency that that happens, it seems pretty obvious to me it's FAR more likely to happen with some breeds than others. Of course any dog can bite or kill, but the same offenders repeatedly appear time and time again.
		
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Acutally spaniels are very good biters. 

I have grown up with them, cavis, working cockers, show cockers and springers. 

My grampys springer bit me on the face when i was younger, it was a warning nip as i stupidly bent down to give him a.kiss but while he was on his lap. I had been told not to. He was a gun dog and protective. 
His old jack russel we didnt go near at all as he would bite. He would stay out of our way and we would stay out of his. 
I have had more close calls from springers than any other dog. 

Even knew two agressive cavillers, to both people and dogs. 

Breed is a part of it but any breed can be turned into a killer.


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## Slightlyconfused (5 October 2022)

stangs said:



			a) I like the way you criticised me here but not Cortez who made the same generalisation. Neat trick.
b) If I add a "could" before the "have", will that appease you?
c) Is fatalities the only criterion for a dog to be dangerous - is mauling not enough? Because, if that's the case, then this dog wasn't dangerous.

JRTs have killed several kids. St Bernards have mauled [x] [x]. Greyhounds have mauled [x]. Dauschunds have mauled [x]. Poodles have mauled [x]. Am I free to go yet, miss?
		
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That hits a bit close to home, the eyes glazing over bit, our kelpie did that when she would suddenly attack the other dogs. And then snap out of it and look round in shock and try and lick them better. 

She was pts when we couldnt fix the behavour with vet and trainers input and had a necropsy done. Found a brain tumor in the area that controls behaviour


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## Crazy_cat_lady (5 October 2022)

I know 2 daschunds. One scares the s*** out of me.

I am a cat person not a dog person and have limited experience of dogs and have never had my own and am somewhat prejudiced as most of my experiences are of rude badly trained dogs.

Daschund a (one of the fluffy ones) - very barky but you can tell it's excitable barks, impeccable training due to the setting he goes into. I was watching him for his owner and he got hold of a piece of cling film. Not wanting him to eat it, I was able to put my fingers at the corner of his mouth and take it off him. Not even a growl or snarl. Very friendly.

Daschund b - scares me. Plunges snapping at other dogs. Plunges snapping at people. Did it to me the other day I shouted at it. It thought better the next time I dared get up out my seat (yes that's why I got ran and barked at for having the audacity to get something off the table). Apparently it's snapped at a child I fear if they have a baby it gives me chills. Owners have tried so many things but it's still a menace

I guess the small breeds are considered less dangerous as their bite won't be as strong as that of a bull breed type. It doesn't help people breeding up already powerful breeds to make them even more powerful eg the bully XL which I looked up and it's like it's on steroids all that muscle. It takes far less for something to go wrong if the dog snaps than a smaller breed even though the temperament on the small breed could be far worse. 

Jesse Lingard, the footballer, had a video on his Instagram of him training his what looked like a cane corso? It was scary how locked onto the target they were and watching them jump up and grab it when he gave the command. The thought of them getting hold of a person is chilling. But it's not just big breeds that have a nasty streak there are several small breeds I wouldn't touch with a barge pole, e.g. chihuahua


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## Michen (5 October 2022)

Slightlyconfused said:



			Acutally spaniels are very good biters.

I have grown up with them, cavis, working cockers, show cockers and springers.

My grampys springer bit me on the face when i was younger, it was a warning nip as i stupidly bent down to give him a.kiss but while he was on his lap. I had been told not to. He was a gun dog and protective.
His old jack russel we didnt go near at all as he would bite. He would stay out of our way and we would stay out of his.
I have had more close calls from springers than any other dog.

Even knew two agressive cavillers, to both people and dogs.

Breed is a part of it but any breed can be turned into a killer.
		
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Biters, not killers. any dog can bite. Jack Russell’s scare the life out of me!


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## cbmcts (5 October 2022)

Should we, as a society be tolerating any dog that bites? even if its a fluffy one? It's not a quick fix but I do feel that we need to completely re-evaluate what is and isn't acceptable in the canine world. Forget the demonisation of any particular  breed - just looking at the XL bully, while it is horrific, deaths caused by them are in the low teens which if you compare to the many different ways that humans die prematurely is barely measurable. I don't mean that in a way of 'that's ok then' just if we take the route of banning breeds, muzzling and leashing large breeds and so on, it can cause complacency and a lack of awareness of the dangers of dogs. Those dangers can be minimised but not eliminated - basic risk management and maybe we do need extra measures for some large breeds until the owner handler can provide documented proof that the work put into these animals has made them as small a risk as possible - there has to be a carrot instead of just the blunt instrument of a stick.

Most of us should be very aware of the risks of animals as I'm guessing that most of us spend, or did spend time around horses. Despite the amount of time I spend with dogs in rescue and having been around dogs and horses all my life, I've had many more serious injuries and been a lot closer to death due to horse accidents rather than dogs! To be honest, I find it a bit bewildering that some horsey/animal people are so quick to shout ban this breed, that breed without considering the risks they take day in, day out with their safety and others to an extent (if a horse was to get loose on the road, for example). How would you feel if you were told that you could never turn your horse out in case a member of the public got kicked in the field or you couldn't ride on the road in case you came off and your horse caused a RTA? Lock them in stables and stay in school, just in case...

If there is the political will and societal pressure, attitudes will change. We saw it with seatbelt wearing and drink driving for those of us old enough to remember those laws changing. We've seen it climate change actions in more recent years - who would have thought that single use carrier bags, plastic straws and other single use plastics would have become so socially unacceptable only a decade ago? Smoking in public let alone indoors is another example


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## Soap On A Rope (6 October 2022)

Starzaan said:



			When they aren’t owned by morons they are absolutely lovely dogs. Beautiful temperaments, amazing family dogs.
Sadly since covid, prices have rocketed, more and more people have been buying dogs who don’t understand how to train or care for them, and more and more clueless people are breeding for the money.
It breaks my heart that this keeps happening. When will our country understand that just banning breeds won’t help. Introducing much tighter restrictions around who can own and breed dogs is the only real way forward.
		
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Pure bred American Bull Dogs are the kindest most gentle breed . The problems start when idiots cross them with an aggressive breed and call then XXL Bullies !!

This is my pure bred American Bulldog ...
How scarey lol..


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## ycbm (6 October 2022)

stangs said:



			So your idea for legislation is crack down on XL bullies, but let people get mauled by the rest? How is that going to decrease dog bites and make for a safer society?
		
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I wasn't talking about decreasing dog bites,  I was talking about decreasing the number of humans  killed directly by a  dog attack.  
.


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## P3LH (6 October 2022)

It’s a difficult one for me. I grew up with Stafford’s and dobes originally, followed by the working type terriers. The original Jack we had was more lethal than any other dog we had, but only a fool would say the others weren’t capable of doing more damage.

Our dogs weren’t owned by novices, and they were well handled, raised and managed. As were the many pits (then legal) (with the exception of one), EBT, mastiffs and bandogs I spent so much time with too. They were still capable of what they were capable of, but their upbringing and management made them functioning members of society.

So for me it comes down to, as it always has, the difficult question of: is the issue that these types of dogs with this capability should only be owned by experienced, very competent owners who have to be able to demonstrate this somehow? Or is the issue these types of dogs don’t have a place in society?

And the problem is, nobody will ever be able to answer it as when with the aforementioned type of owners the dogs can be functioning parts of society - and they hold a merit beyond their size, capability and status as to why these owners wish to own these dogs. Yes they still could do damage, but as with all risk assessments - the factors of risk are greatly reduced by competent and appropriate actions/responses/people. But they attract a significant majority of owners not suited to owning a flea, let alone a dog with such capability.

I still have a soft spot for all of the bull breeds - but interestingly, I don’t think I would ever have another again as don’t think I would be a suitable owner. Still, when I see a dark red stafford or a brindle and white bull terrier I could be swayed.


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## CorvusCorax (6 October 2022)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-63158888


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## scats (7 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-63158888

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That poor lady must have been so frightened 😞


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## Pinkvboots (7 October 2022)

There was an article in The Daily mail yesterday about 2 young kids in the US that were mauled to death by there parents dogs they were bull type dogs so sad.


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## skinnydipper (7 October 2022)

https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022/10/07/sheriff-dogs-attack-family-in-tennessee-2-children-die/


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## Dexter (7 October 2022)

All the people saying spaniels bite and they've been bitten etc, the only reason you are still alive is because it was a spaniel or lab and not a bull breed. 

I don't think you can expect the idiots that have these dogs to be responsible owners no matter what you do, so surely the only answer is to ban these huge, incredibly powerful dogs and then make sure its policed hard.


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## Amymay (7 October 2022)

Dexter said:



			I don't think you can expect the idiots that have these dogs to be responsible owners no matter what you do, so surely the only answer is to ban these huge, incredibly powerful dogs and then make sure its policed hard.
		
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I do sort of agree with you. But I understand people’s reticence.


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## stangs (7 October 2022)

For context, pitbulls were banned in 1991 when the DDA came into effect. Since then, that Wiki page reports that there have been 10 fatalities caused by a pitbull or pitbull cross. In the meantime, Battersea had to PTS 91 pitbull types in 2015 alone, the majority of which were otherwise rehomeable. A really solid piece of legislation that we should definitely add to.

It is naive to think that banning XL bullies will reduce fatalities - or else the current DDA would have worked. They’re not going to crackdown on the backyard breeders. They’re not going to police harder. All that’s going to happen is that well-socialised family pets will be snitched on and then stuck in muzzles, and rescue bullies will be PTS. Not to mention that various mastiff crosses would likely fall under the XL bully dimensions - how are you going to police their breeding?

But, sure, more BSL is the way to go here. Because it works so well.

ETA: Don't take my word for it. Mora et al. (2018) found that BSL was ineffective at reducing fatal dog attacks in Spain. Schalke et al., (2008) found that the majority of dogs deemed dangerous (i.e., ownership is restricted by local law) passed a temperament test. Cornelissen & Hopster (2009) found that Dutch BSL also wasn’t ineffective - and the Netherlands no longer has BSL, after scientific evaluation of the legislation.


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## skinnydipper (7 October 2022)

I'm sitting here, with my dog sleeping by me, wondering why.

People attacked and killed by their own dogs.  Why? 

What sort of life did the dogs have?

How did the owners behave with their dogs generally?

What happened in the time leading up to the attack?

What triggered the attack?


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## stangs (7 October 2022)

In case anyone's interested, DEFRA released a statement on the recent increase of fatal attacks here. It appears they're gone for the unique approach of not criticising the dogs nor their owners, but recommending potential victims keep an eye out? People die and DEFRA's advice is "be safe". You couldn't make this up.


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## stangs (7 October 2022)

skinnydipper said:



			I'm sitting here, with my dog sleeping by me, wondering why.

People attacked and killed by their own dogs.  Why?

What sort of life did the dogs have?

How did the owners behave with their dogs generally?

What happened in the time leading up to the attack?

What triggered the attack?
		
Click to expand...

Loath as I am to link to the Mirror, this article - if the information is reliable - is quite insightful. Dog came from a very dodgy breeder, was a COVID puppy, and was bought by someone who appears to have been a caring owner but possibly didn't quite understand the management needs of the breed.

Is the "gentle giant" reputation potentially to blame for the wrong type of owners, though dog lovers, buying these dogs? After all, other guard dog breeds tend to get sold with the understanding that they're high energy dogs that are liable to become dangerous without the appropriate management.


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## splashgirl45 (7 October 2022)

Another tragedy that could have been avoided..  when I was young the devil dogs were German shepherds and the main bull breeds were staffies who were much smaller than the dogs that pass for staffies now and they all seemed very sociable and friendly.  If I see that type of dog now I am very careful as I know that my little terriers or my whippet cross wouldn’t stand a chance if one decided to turn.  On saying that there is one staffie that I see regularly who is like the old type from my youth and the owner is in control of him and puts him on the lead when passing other dogs that he doesn’t know ..


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## skinnydipper (7 October 2022)

Thanks for posting the link, Stangs.


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## Pearlsasinger (7 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			It's often been noted that if they were Labrador-sized, they'd be on the DDA list.
		
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As it is they are dangerously small and far too easy to fall over


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## CorvusCorax (7 October 2022)

OK so that was a hard read.

Sounds like the trigger in that case was the dogs fighting, which I don't find surprising at all, I have a couple of puncture wounds from trying to separate dogs, none of these dogs intended to bite 'me'. And it is probably a common theme in these attacks.

I don't think it's a secret that my two males don't get on. One lived as an only dog for seven years and already regarded the dog who came to live in his house four years ago (who is a dote) as his nemesis. They are large, entire, high drive males and I can train certain things but I am under no illusion that these dogs will ever like each other so why would I force that issue?
I also realise that if they did go at each other and I did intervene, all three of us would get hurt and I'm no good to anyone hurt.
Yes it is difficult and time consuming to manage three dogs separately but there you go...

I think some people are deluding themselves to think that all dogs can live together in perfect harmony and that they can control very base genetic instincts.
When the dog is in such a high state of arousal, it doesn't know what or where it is biting, it's nothing 'personal', but that doesn't matter when you're being bitten.

Also...2 and 4k? That's lunacy.


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## twiggy2 (8 October 2022)

Dexter said:



			All the people saying spaniels bite and they've been bitten etc, the only reason you are still alive is because it was a spaniel or lab and not a bull breed.

I don't think you can expect the idiots that have these dogs to be responsible owners no matter what you do, so surely the only answer is to ban these huge, incredibly powerful dogs and then make sure its policed hard.
		
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If you were bitten by a bull breed you would be highly unlikely to die, an attack is a completely different thing to a bite


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## twiggy2 (8 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			OK so that was a hard read.

Sounds like the trigger in that case was the dogs fighting, which I don't find surprising at all, I have a couple of puncture wounds from trying to separate dogs, none of these dogs intended to bite 'me'. And it is probably a common theme in these attacks.

I don't think it's a secret that my two males don't get on. One lived as an only dog for seven years and already regarded the dog who came to live in his house four years ago (who is a dote) as his nemesis. They are large, entire, high drive males and I can train certain things but I am under no illusion that these dogs will ever like each other so why would I force that issue?
I also realise that if they did go at each other and I did intervene, all three of us would get hurt and I'm no good to anyone hurt.
Yes it is difficult and time consuming to manage three dogs separately but there you go...

I think some people are deluding themselves to think that all dogs can live together in perfect harmony and that they can control very base genetic instincts.
When the dog is in such a high state of arousal, it doesn't know what or where it is biting, it's nothing 'personal', but that doesn't matter when you're being bitten.

Also...2 and 4k? That's lunacy.
		
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I can't see what it is you are reading?


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## ester (8 October 2022)

This https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-woman-killed-dog-as-27894532?int_source=nba


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## twiggy2 (8 October 2022)

ester said:



			This https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-woman-killed-dog-as-27894532?int_source=nba

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Thank you for that.
What sad reading,


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## skinnydipper (8 October 2022)

stangs said:



			Is the "gentle giant" reputation potentially to blame for the wrong type of owners, though dog lovers, buying these dogs? After all, other guard dog breeds tend to get sold with the understanding that they're high energy dogs that are liable to become dangerous without the appropriate management.
		
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TBH, stangs, I am not sold on the idea that people buy an XL bully because they think it is a "gentle giant".


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## bonny (8 October 2022)

skinnydipper said:



			TBH, stangs, I am not sold on the idea that people buy an XL bully because they think it is a "gentle giant".
		
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Read the mirror article above, the mum of the woman killed said she bought two bully dogs because she saw them as gentle giants.


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## skinnydipper (8 October 2022)

bonny said:



			Read the mirror article above, the mum of the woman killed said she bought two bully dogs because she saw them as gentle giants.
		
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Do you think that generally that's why people buy them, because they think they are gentle giants?

And I suppose they cut their ears off because they think it looks cute.


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## SAujla (8 October 2022)

Horrific story from the US about a 5 month old and 2 year old mauled to death by family pit bull. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...led-death-two-pet-pit-bulls.html?fr=operanews

I've no idea what the realistic answer is to the problems with dogs attacking. Its been mentioned here that there are been numerous threads about this. The world seems to becoming more dangerous by the week, in all aspects


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## Cinnamontoast (8 October 2022)

Has anyone seen (probably one of many) the ban the bully petition yet? https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/618243

Given how many pitbull lookalikes I’ve seen in my time, I doubt a petition or even legislation would help: it would drive it underground but not eliminate breeding/selling of dogs. Was it @P3LH  who said he’d seen a convention of bully types being mated in the back of vans at some park this year?


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## stangs (8 October 2022)

skinnydipper said:



			TBH, stangs, I am not sold on the idea that people buy an XL bully because they think it is a "gentle giant".
		
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Various interpretations of the "gentle giant" appeal (specifically focused on caring pet owners - like the lady in the Mirror article whose dog did not have cropped ears):

1) They like the contrast between tough-looking exterior and softy on the inside (curiously a common trope in romance fiction)
2) They like the idea of a dog who’s a gentle giant/nanny dog/etc with them but tough with outsiders, especially if they live in an area they don't feel safe it
3) They genuinely believe these dogs couldn’t hurt a fly, thanks to what they’ve read or their own experiences with the breed/type
4) Of the “gentle giant” breeds, the XL bully is the most easily accessible and affordable (and the most trendy).


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## skinnydipper (8 October 2022)

...


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## Boulty (8 October 2022)

I work in veterinary & so see a lot of different breeds of dog at their worst (as whatever we do to try & make it otherwise a hospital is a scary place).  Our most feared patient by most of the staff is an ancient grumpy chihuahua (I think he's hilarious but I've had nearly 10 years of his shenanigans to deal with).  I'd say the most dangerous dogs in terms of people getting bitten generally aren't the ones that are lunging & snarling as they're giving out pretty clear signals about what their intentions are & you'd have to be pretty idiotic not to back off a bit & think about your options.  The ones I most often see people get bitten by are the ones who are uncomfortable with the situation & may in fact be utterly terrified  but are only showing fairly subtle, quiet signals eg whale eye, slightly tense posture / stiff, jerky movement, yawning, lip licking until they reach a point they can't cope with & BANG! Dog bite happens. Of course none of these are sustained attacks although serious injury can still sometimes result. The worst dog bites I've seen in practice were a random crossbreed, a Boxer & a Retriever, (seen a few bad Westie ones as well) none of which would have been on anyone's "dangerous" list. I'd say the biggest things that help prevent people getting bitten are people learning to read dogs & doing everything they can to keep anxious animals below threshold & being sensible about the situations they're putting themselves in. 

Not sure what the answer is for the wider world as no idea how you'd fund or police ensuring that everyone who wanted to own a dog had a good basic understanding of dog behaviour & body language & the specific traits & extra requirements of their breed. Even if you made attending training classes mandatory to try & give everyone some basic tools & advice (& hopefully identify those who need serious, behaviourist level intervention) who would check this & how?

Yes I know that whilst any dog has the potential to injure or kill a baby or small child (I would never trust my Cavi with a small child without constant direct supervision as he can be quite sharp & has an abnormally high prey drive / chase instinct that could lead to bad things in the wrong circumstances not that any dog should be fully trusted unsupervised around children anyway) the list of dogs who have the power to easily do this to a healthy adult is a lot smaller I don't think BSL in its current form is the answer.  If there was a way of having competency tests in order to own any breed that a panel of experts concluded was powerful enough to pose a serious risk to life if not handled correctly that might be a step in the right direction to try & restrict the ownership of certain breeds to those who are more likely to be competent to deal with them but just can't see any such scheme being enforceable as we can't even keep on top of stopping the breeding of dogs who've been banned for decades & so in theory there should be none left of!

I guess there may be some hard choices for rescues in there as well in terms of making the responsible but unpopular decision to PTS dogs whose behaviour could put their new owners & members of the public at risk.


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## teapot (9 October 2022)

stangs said:



			In case anyone's interested, DEFRA released a statement on the recent increase of fatal attacks here. It appears they're gone for the unique approach of not criticising the dogs nor their owners, but recommending potential victims keep an eye out? People die and DEFRA's advice is "be safe". You couldn't make this up.
		
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Out of interest what do you expect them to say? Especially as it’s not their place, nor are they able to comment on cases that may well go to court.

Govt comms have to be carefully written for fear of it being twisted.  Anything stronger against certain dog breeds, or certain owner behaviour would be all over social media as ‘govt dept suggests owners are effing thick’ or ‘govt dept wants to ban all dogs of x size’.

It’s also important not to say too much if at some point they were to rely on public support for any proposed law changes.


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## cauda equina (9 October 2022)

Maybe not criticising owners, but Defra statement is certainly advising them - don't leave your child alone with a dog, learn to read your dog ("what is your dog telling you"?)
And I read the "Stay Safe" as meaning stay safe from your own dog
It is a bit feeble though, unless it was specifically released in response to the lastest domestic incident and wasn't intended to address the wider problems of out of control dogs

Maybe Defra is now under the same No Nanny State! constraints as other government departments


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## skinnydipper (9 October 2022)

I am curious, stangs, is XL bully the breed you would prefer?



stangs said:



			If I was in the position to buy a dog, I’d be looking at a bull type breed provided I could find healthy lines. I don’t live in a dangerous area, but I would like to walk around feeling safe at 11pm, and you don’t get that feeling with Chihuahua.
		
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## Errin Paddywack (9 October 2022)

I have to say that my friend's 2 TMs are the loveliest dogs to look at and to meet and are brilliant guards.  They can really look the business and their size is enough to be intimidating but they don't have the 'attack' built into them that some of the bull types seem to.  
The young couple local to my friend that have a young TM now have a new puppy, Neapolitan Mastiff x Cane Corso x XL Bully.  Sweetheart at the moment but who knows in the future and what is the betting they cross it to their TM bitch.


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## skinnydipper (9 October 2022)

Errin Paddywack said:



			The young couple local to my friend that have a young TM now have a new puppy, Neapolitan Mastiff x Cane Corso x XL Bully. Sweetheart at the moment but who knows in the future and what is the betting they cross it to their TM bitch.
		
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I know of a young couple who bought an imported docked and cropped Cane Corso puppy.  Inexperienced owners.

As he has grown, challenging behaviour has increased.  They are out of their depth.  The last I heard it wasn't going well and he has bitten them.


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## stangs (9 October 2022)

teapot said:



			Out of interest what do you expect them to say? Especially as it’s not their place, nor are they able to comment on cases that may well go to court.

Govt comms have to be carefully written for fear of it being twisted. Anything stronger against certain dog breeds, or certain owner behaviour would be all over social media as ‘govt dept suggests owners are effing thick’ or ‘govt dept wants to ban all dogs of x size’.

It’s also important not to say too much if at some point they were to rely on public support for any proposed law changes.
		
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I appreciate that govt comms have to be carefully written, but shouldn’t there be a difference between “carefully written” and “a bunch of meaningless words” (ideally; my expectations for all things government are low)? 

Things like “what is your dog telling you?” grate on my nerves. What _is_ my dog telling me? Neither the press release nor the referenced code of Practice provide information on reading a dog’s body language beyond the very basics. 

They write ‘accidents happen fast’ but, beyond advising to keep an eye on children and dogs, they don’t provide any comments on preventing those accidents on happening to start with. E.g., “work with a behaviourist if you have a dog you’re struggling with” couldn’t be twisted.  



skinnydipper said:



			I am curious, stangs, is XL bully the breed you would prefer?
		
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It depends on the dog, of course, but, as a general rule of thumb, I wouldn’t want an XL bully, no. I don’t like the ever shorter muzzles they’re breeding into them, and the majority of people breeding them don’t appear to be the conscientious breeder I’d like to give money to. There’s a specific type of American Bulldog I like instead, and would probably be the best out of my ‘dream’ breeds for a city lifestyle.

However, I don’t have a garden. I don’t have the time to provide a dog like this with adequate mental and physical stimulation. And, given that I dislike socialising, I wouldn’t buy a puppy that requires quite a bit of it to be a well-rounded individual. So you won't be seeing me on “dog killed owner” lists, if that’s what you’re worried about.


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## skinnydipper (9 October 2022)

stangs said:



			It depends on the dog, of course, but, as a general rule of thumb, I wouldn’t want an XL bully, no. I don’t like the ever shorter muzzles they’re breeding into them, and the majority of people breeding them don’t appear to be the conscientious breeder I’d like to give money to. There’s a specific type of American Bulldog I like instead, and would probably be the best out of my ‘dream’ breeds for a city lifestyle.

However, I don’t have a garden. I don’t have the time to provide a dog like this with adequate mental and physical stimulation. And, given that I dislike socialising, I wouldn’t buy a puppy that requires quite a bit of it to be a well-rounded individual. So you won't be seeing me on “dog killed owner” lists, if that’s what you’re worried about.
		
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I was curious to know the breed you would choose to make you feel safe. 

Apart from my GSD puppy, my dogs have been chosen because I felt we would get along and they needed a home,  so a bit of a mixture of breeds and types.  Though the dogs I have had include a bull terrier, German Shepherds and current dog is a mastiff, keeping me safe has never been in their job description.  Quite the opposite, I've always looked on it as my job to keep them safe


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## teapot (9 October 2022)

stangs said:



			I appreciate that govt comms have to be carefully written, but shouldn’t there be a difference between “carefully written” and “a bunch of meaningless words” (ideally; my expectations for all things government are low)?

Things like “what is your dog telling you?” grate on my nerves. What _is_ my dog telling me? Neither the press release nor the referenced code of Practice provide information on reading a dog’s body language beyond the very basics.

They write ‘accidents happen fast’ but, beyond advising to keep an eye on children and dogs, they don’t provide any comments on preventing those accidents on happening to start with. E.g., “work with a behaviourist if you have a dog you’re struggling with” couldn’t be twisted.
		
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In an ideal world, sure more information, links etc would be needed regardless of subject matter, but I think it's worth considering that those types of press releases are done quickly, and written by people who are working on 101 different areas. They won't be thinking about whether the general public needs advice on whether to try a dog behaviourist or not, it's not their job to either. Those press releases are instead just used to show the general public that a Govt department is aware of what's happening outside the bubble.


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## Clodagh (9 October 2022)

skinnydipper said:



			I was curious to know the breed you would choose to make you feel safe. 

Apart from my GSD puppy, my dogs have been chosen because I felt we would get along and they needed a home,  so a bit of a mixture of breeds and types.  Though the dogs I have had include a bull terrier, German Shepherds and current dog is a mastiff, keeping me safe has never been in their job description.  Quite the opposite, I've always looked on it as my job to keep them safe 

Click to expand...

I do see where Stangs is coming from ( although none of the current killer dog trends attract me) I had a Doberman x kelpie in Oz and he was a natural guardian and living in some very rough areas he did indeed protect me on occasion.


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## stangs (9 October 2022)

skinnydipper said:



			I was curious to know the breed you would choose to make you feel safe.

Apart from my GSD puppy, my dogs have been chosen because I felt we would get along and they needed a home,  so a bit of a mixture of breeds and types.  Though the dogs I have had include a bull terrier, German Shepherds and current dog is a mastiff, keeping me safe has never been in their job description.  Quite the opposite, I've always looked on it as my job to keep them safe 

Click to expand...

I get what you're saying. 

By "feel safe"/"keep me safe", I don't mean in the protection dog sense where the dog may be put in danger to protect its carer. It's more that certain types of dog make their owners look like less of an easy target, and I'd like to go for walks at certain times of day in certain areas without being on edge the whole time. It's not a job description; it's nothing to be trained for. It's just their appearance.


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## P3LH (10 October 2022)

Cinnamontoast said:



			Has anyone seen (probably one of many) the ban the bully petition yet? https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/618243

Given how many pitbull lookalikes I’ve seen in my time, I doubt a petition or even legislation would help: it would drive it underground but not eliminate breeding/selling of dogs. Was it @P3LH  who said he’d seen a convention of bully types being mated in the back of vans at some park this year?
		
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Sadly yes at a breed meet up rendezvous in a park….there were professional photographers and everything. It was all quite well appointed and set up oddly enough. A grim state of affairs really. Nearly every one with sliced off ears and wearing leather attire which would look more at home in the backstreets of soho.


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## skinnydipper (10 October 2022)

stangs said:



			I get what you're saying.

By "feel safe"/"keep me safe", I don't mean in the protection dog sense where the dog may be put in danger to protect its carer. It's more that certain types of dog make their owners look like less of an easy target, and I'd like to go for walks at certain times of day in certain areas without being on edge the whole time. It's not a job description; it's nothing to be trained for. It's just their appearance.
		
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People choosing dogs because they think they look tough could be the reason why we are in this mess.


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## skinnydipper (10 October 2022)

Owning a large dog is a responsibility I take seriously. 

I do my best to avoid her being in a position where she feels she has to defend herself, which isn't easy given the number of idiot dog owners.

I certainly do not want to put her in the position where she felt she had to defend me.

Whatever the outcome of either of these situations, it would not end well for her.


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## Clodagh (10 October 2022)

But surely if push came to shove you’d rather she behaved threateningly and saved you from rape, for instance.
One night in Oz I was walking home from a friends and was surrounded by a group of men. They were very aggressive. My dog was pootling along doing smells but he instantly came and stood next to me and growled and snarled. One man still approached closer and the dog nipped him. They backed off and left. 
It went on longer than that and possibly I over reacted but I was certainly in fear for my safety and was delighted he behaved as he did. It did not change his behaviour long term.


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## SOS (10 October 2022)

As another poster said, the most likely dogs to bite you in veterinary practice were not bull breeds, more so Westies/Daschunds/Chihuahuas.

However I think veterinary practice bites (note not attacks) are very different to those being spoken about in this thread. We unfortunately have to make animals uncomfortable, often cause them pain (injections, blood testing, finding painful areas) and put pressure on them. They normally give us lots of warning signs but sometimes we can’t stop what we are doing as we have to perform the act to help the animal. I have been bitten (with gauntlets on) and seen colleagues bitten. Never were these sustained, nor did I fear for their life. The dogs were reacting out of pure fear and last ditch attempt to stop whatever was going on. Tolerance and pain threshold came into play a lot, as well as this ladder of aggression. Toy breeds were IMO more likely to bite as they were less tolerant of exam and had learn growling/snapping got people off them.

(Side note: this makes veterinary practices sound awful, in reality we tried our best to keep all dogs in their happy zone and sedated when necessary)

The attacks discussed on this thread are very different. These are often people entering someone else’s home, sustained attacks and potentially unprovoked.


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## SOS (10 October 2022)

I don’t know what the answer is to stopping dog attacks. But I know that you are more likely to survive an attack from a Jack Russell than an 50kg XL bully. I chose a JRT as my example as they also have been bred to attack and cling on/flip (rats).

I unfortunately know a large breed (not bully) dog owned by friends who I fear could be one of these statistics in the future. I am desperately trying to get them to seek behavioural advice as they are expecting a baby. What scares me the most is very rarely do the news articles say there was never a problem with the dogs before. If anyone has advice, I would welcome it by PM.


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## skinnydipper (10 October 2022)

stangs said:



			Edited it for you 

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This is what I said:



skinnydipper said:



			People choosing dogs because they think they look tough could be the reason why we are in this mess.
		
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Don't edit my posts.

You are being very silly.

Kindly delete post #200 now.


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## blackcob (10 October 2022)

stangs said:



			By "feel safe"/"keep me safe", I don't mean in the protection dog sense where the dog may be put in danger to protect its carer. It's more that certain types of dog make their owners look like less of an easy target, and I'd like to go for walks at certain times of day in certain areas without being on edge the whole time. It's not a job description; it's nothing to be trained for. It's just their appearance.
		
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I too can see where you're coming from as I had significantly fewer problems with loose and rude dogs (and their rude and ignorant humans) when walking two oversized almost 30kg Siberian huskies than I do now walking a single 7kg fluffy spitzy thing. Some of it is circumstantial, there just being many more dogs around here in the last few years, but most of it I suspect is because people find it funny or harmless when the small dog reacts in a way that they absolutely wouldn't if it was a large dog of a certain type or appearance. Owning a dog like that comes with its own parcel of responsibilities but I'd be lying if I said that size, appearance and other people's likely perceptions didn't factor in to my choice of dog breed, and I don't think I'm just a tough nut trying to look hard.


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## CorvusCorax (10 October 2022)

I was raised with GSDs so I didn't 'pick' them as my breed, but I do remember going to a talk by a breed historian/author of one of the best books on the breed who said that he would be lying if he said he was not first attracted to them because of how they looked, and most other people would have to say the same.
And he's a teacher and choral singer who used to send me voice recordings of himself reading Yeats and Frost poetry over lockdown, so I wouldn't consider him a hard nut either.

Sadly having big dogs with pointy ears does not stop the idiot owners stop their dogs running up to us around here....


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## stangs (10 October 2022)

I apologise. I didn’t realise that my efforts to use a different medium in argument may have been silliness gone too far. I have added a disclaimer to my post as to not further damage your good name.


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## marmalade76 (10 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			I was raised with GSDs so I didn't 'pick' them as my breed, but I do remember going to a talk by a breed historian/author of one of the best books on the breed who said that he would be lying if he said he was not first attracted to them because of how they looked, and most other people would have to say the same.
And he's a teacher and choral singer who used to send me voice recordings of himself reading Yeats and Frost poetry over lockdown, so I wouldn't consider him a hard nut either.

Sadly having big dogs with pointy ears does not stop the idiot owners stop their dogs running up to us around here....
		
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They're my fave breed, beautiful dogs (the shorter coated being more my taste than the fluffy), intelligent,  trainable, keen to please.. not everyone's dog, I know, nor are collies which is what I have (my house is not big enough for a GSD). 

What I can't understand is why anyone would want these fugly, fat headed, squashed nosed, slobbery things unless they just want to look hard.


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## skinnydipper (10 October 2022)

Clodagh said:



			But surely if push came to shove you’d rather she behaved threateningly and saved you from rape, for instance.
One night in Oz I was walking home from a friends and was surrounded by a group of men. They were very aggressive. My dog was pootling along doing smells but he instantly came and stood next to me and growled and snarled. One man still approached closer and the dog nipped him. They backed off and left.
It went on longer than that and possibly I over reacted but I was certainly in fear for my safety and was delighted he behaved as he did. It did not change his behaviour long term.
		
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If she bit someone a change in her behaviour would be the least of my worries.


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## skinnydipper (10 October 2022)

....


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## MurphysMinder (10 October 2022)

Like CC I was born into a household of GSDs as my mum bred and showed them, so I didn't pick the breed as such.   I have never had an aggressive one,  but I always feel safe with them around.    When I lost my girl unexpectedly earlier this year and for the first time in my life was without a GSD, I  won't deny that I felt a bit more vulnerable  as I live in a rural area.  This despite the fact one of my Lancashire Heelers is actually a really good guard and has actually nipped a couple of people who thought they would ignore his warnings and come through the gate.  I now have a shepherd pup,  who has a lovely friendly temperament but I am sure just her presence will give me a bit of security and if she barks at the gate I am pretty sure people won't  just walk in.


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## YorksG (10 October 2022)

We got the pair of rottweilers (after having had one as a rescue) partly because they are quite off putting to casual thrives. I often spent two nights a week on my own here, in a quite vulnerable property. They were well socialised and never offered to bite anyone, but they were quite territorial and made a large noise if they believed there were interlopers.


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## Tiddlypom (10 October 2022)

We'd always have dogs anyway, but the additional security of having a resident dog, or a dog accompanying you on a walk, is not to be sneezed at.

Casual thieves are deterred by noisy dogs within a property's confines, even small JRT sized ones.


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## HashRouge (10 October 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			We'd always have dogs anyway, but the additional security of having a resident dog, or a dog accompanying you on a walk, is not to be sneezed at.

Casual thieves are deterred by noisy dogs within a property's confines, even small JRT sized ones.
		
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I used to work for a show jumper and he had a house on his parents' large arable farm, so I got to know his parents quite well. They had three dogs - a JRT, a Rottie and, bizarrely, a Boerboel. His mum told me that they got the Boerboel so that she would feel safe when walking out round their property, as it had a few footpaths through it. Apparently the Rottie wasn't intimidating enough! The Boerboel was actually a really lovely dog, and very well trained, but the first time I met him I was just terrified by his size as he came charging down the yard towards me! I can't imagine anyone ever challenging you if you were out walking a dog like that.

The scariest dog I have ever encountered out walking was a Kangal Shepherd dog. It's the only time I've ever seen one in the flesh and he really did scare me quite a lot, even though the guy walking him was very sensible and knowledgeable (it was a rescue dog that had ended up with him as he worked with the rescue and they knew he was knowledgeable).


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## Books'n'dogs (10 October 2022)

I am very petite in stature and a certain type of male seems to think I am an easy target for harassment. When I got Willow she wasn't chosen with the idea that she would deter this type of attention but I was pleasantly surprised that they left me alone when she was with me. This summer has been a bit of a nightmare, a Miniature Schnauzer doesn't seem to inspire the same respect as a German Shepherd, as a result my mom and I are seriously considering getting another German Shepherd even though we had previously decided to go with a smaller breed. I don't expect my dog to actually protect me but just deterring the unwanted attention is a boon.


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## blackcob (10 October 2022)

That's another aspect - although I usually live in a small town, with streetlights and everything, a few times a year I have farmsitting duties. If I am opening the door to investigate mysterious thief-y noises in the middle of the night, halfway up a bleak bit of moorland with the nearest neighbour a mile away down an unmade track, I know what size and appearance of dog I'd rather have with me. It is not an ankle-high fruitbat dog, however menacing a front he can put on. Neither is it the spaniels, who managed to sleep through having bits nicked off the Land Rover without raising the alarm. 🙄

I'm glad it's not just me that has noticed the contrast in 'respect' to large dogs of a certain type and small dogs. It's not foolproof - as CC, eejits are still going to eejit - but enough that it has affected my enjoyment of having a small dog.


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## cauda equina (10 October 2022)

HashRouge said:



			I used to work for a show jumper and he had a house on his parents' large arable farm, so I got to know his parents quite well. They had three dogs - a JRT, a Rottie and, bizarrely, a Boerboel. His mum told me that they got the Boerboel so that she would feel safe when walking out round their property, as it had a few footpaths through it. Apparently the Rottie wasn't intimidating enough! The Boerboel was actually a really lovely dog, and very well trained, but the first time I met him I was just terrified by his size as he came charging down the yard towards me! I can't imagine anyone ever challenging you if you were out walking a dog like that.

The scariest dog I have ever encountered out walking was a Kangal Shepherd dog. It's the only time I've ever seen one in the flesh and he really did scare me quite a lot, even though the guy walking him was very sensible and knowledgeable (it was a rescue dog that had ended up with him as he worked with the rescue and they knew he was knowledgeable).
		
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I knew someone with a Rhodesian Ridgeback which looked intimidating but was actually the sweetest dog, so much so that he visited care homes as a Pets as Therapy dog


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## skinnydipper (10 October 2022)

"Ms Dunn required hospital treatment in August last year after suffering a number of bites from a large dog, although her injuries on that occasion were not life-threatening. It is unclear whether the dog that attacked her on that occasion was involved in her death."

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/tragic-nan-treated-dog-bites-25189004


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## Morwenna (10 October 2022)

My trainer told me about a friend of their who has three Staffies. She’s taught them to line up on the stairs when people come to the door (to stop them being licked to death). Her front door opens onto the stairs as as a single, older, female she finds it really helps stop cold callers in their tracks when they see the dogs lined up. We are all drawn to different breeds and there’s nothing wrong with buying a breed that makes you feel safer as long as you understand its needs and the training requirements to keep you, the dogs and the general public safe.


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## Moobli (10 October 2022)

I am another with GSDs.  Loved them for as long as I can remember.  Probably attracted by the looks initially. I’ve lived alone in various places and walked in remote areas in the dark with my dogs and never felt unsafe.  Their look and reputation as a fearsome police/prison/military dog seems to unnerve lots of folk.
I now live in a remote shepherd’s cottage on the moors, nearest neighbour is about a mile away and the other farms dotted around the hills have had thefts of motors , quads etc but (touch wood) we haven’t had any problems.  It may or may not be due to my two GSDs who bark loudly and ferociously when anyone comes near our property.  So while I don’t have GSDs to look “hard or tough”, I do like the added security just the appearance and reputation offers.


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## Clodagh (10 October 2022)

skinnydipper said:



			"Ms Dunn required hospital treatment in August last year after suffering a number of bites from a large dog, although her injuries on that occasion were not life-threatening. It is unclear whether the dog that attacked her on that occasion was involved in her death."

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/tragic-nan-treated-dog-bites-25189004

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Although sad I am struggling to feel the same level of sympathy for the situation as I would if she was a neighbour or visitor.


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## Moobli (10 October 2022)

And I don’t quite understand it when I’ve heard people say that their job is to protect their dog and not the other way around.  I’d like to think that, god forbid, when the chips were down and if I was being attacked/raped/assaulted that my dogs would absolutely jump in to help me out.


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## ellieb (10 October 2022)

In the US today: https://people.com/crime/2-children-killed-pit-bull-attack-tennessee-mother-hospitalized/

A ten-minute attack, such an awful thought. I wonder when a baby/child is involved whether sometimes it's just a noise they make that sets the dogs off - my greyhound used to react and go into 'prey-drive mode' when he heard certain shrieks/high-pitched sounds that only babies can manage, before he got used to them (being around nephew/nieces growing up, CAREFULLY).


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## CorvusCorax (10 October 2022)

ellieb said:



			In the US today: https://people.com/crime/2-children-killed-pit-bull-attack-tennessee-mother-hospitalized/

A ten-minute attack, such an awful thought. I wonder when a baby/child is involved whether sometimes it's just a noise they make that sets the dogs off - my greyhound used to react and go into 'prey-drive mode' when he heard certain shrieks/high-pitched sounds that only babies can manage, before he got used to them (being around nephew/nieces growing up, CAREFULLY).
		
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Five days ago, story has already been linked a couple of times.


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## marmalade76 (10 October 2022)

ellieb said:



			In the US today: https://people.com/crime/2-children-killed-pit-bull-attack-tennessee-mother-hospitalized/

A ten-minute attack, such an awful thought. I wonder when a baby/child is involved whether sometimes it's just a noise they make that sets the dogs off - my greyhound used to react and go into 'prey-drive mode' when he heard certain shrieks/high-pitched sounds that only babies can manage, before he got used to them (being around nephew/nieces growing up, CAREFULLY).
		
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:'(

Nanny dogs, isn't that what some folks call them?


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## ellieb (10 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			Five days ago, story has already been linked a couple of times.
		
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Apologies


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## marmalade76 (10 October 2022)

ellieb said:



			Apologies 

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Your link was more detailed than the previous one, that one did not give any details of the attack, only that two small children had been killed and mother badly injured by family pet pits.


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## honetpot (10 October 2022)

Moobli said:



			I am another with GSDs.  Loved them for as long as I can remember.  Probably attracted by the looks initially. I’ve lived alone in various places and walked in remote areas in the dark with my dogs and never felt unsafe.  Their look and reputation as a fearsome police/prison/military dog seems to unnerve lots of folk.
I now live in a remote shepherd’s cottage on the moors, nearest neighbour is about a mile away and the other farms dotted around the hills have had thefts of motors , quads etc but (touch wood) we haven’t had any problems.  It may or may not be due to my two GSDs who bark loudly and ferociously when anyone comes near our property.  So while I don’t have GSDs to look “hard or tough”, I do like the added security just the appearance and reputation offers.
		
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 I got our rottiX for the same reason, she looks the part, is very reactive to noise,a woof that deafens you, and snarling through the glass front door, you would think she was vicious, but her temperament is more like Nana from Peter Pan, she snoozes with the cats. We live on a small holding, and the dog is an alarm, it makes people think twice before coming through our gate, and its amazing how many tough looking men are wary. She hates being told off, if she doesn't want to do something she just glues all 45kg of her to the floor.


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## skinnydipper (11 October 2022)

cauda equina said:



			I knew someone with a Rhodesian Ridgeback which looked intimidating but was actually the sweetest dog, so much so that he visited care homes as a Pets as Therapy dog
		
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My dog would be well suited for this but when I looked into it they would not accept raw fed dogs.


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## skinnydipper (11 October 2022)

blackcob said:



			I too can see where you're coming from as I had significantly fewer problems with loose and rude dogs (and their rude and ignorant humans) when walking two oversized almost 30kg Siberian huskies than I do now walking a single 7kg fluffy spitzy thing
		
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I've been told, several times, that the reason someone's dog is kicking off at mine is because she is so big.

I am pleased when we can complete a walk without being harassed by another dog.

ETA.  Another excuse is that it is because she is on a lead.


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## MurphysMinder (11 October 2022)

marmalade76 said:



			:'(

Nanny dogs, isn't that what some folks call them?
		
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No, staffies are sometimes called nanny dogs.   This attack was by Pit bulls.


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## Nasicus (11 October 2022)

MurphysMinder said:



			No, staffies are sometimes called nanny dogs.   This attack was by Pit bulls.
		
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Pitnutters love to trot out the 'nanny dog' lie about pitbulls all the time unfortunately. Lets just completely ignore the fact they were bred and still are often bred to fight to the death.


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## Clodagh (11 October 2022)

Actually (from someone who lived in a country where there were many and they didn’t have the same labels as here) a well bred pit should be a delight to handle. Even, or especially, the bred to fight ones as they have to be able to be bought ‘up to scratch ‘ and lifted away from another dog when in full ramped up fight mode.


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## Clodagh (11 October 2022)

I still don’t think the average pet owner in the UK needs them.


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## skinnydipper (11 October 2022)

To get back to the original subject of the post, someone being attacked by their own dog.

I wonder how these dogs are trained and if they use aversive techniques.


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## marmalade76 (11 October 2022)

Clodagh said:



			I still don’t think the average pet owner in the UK needs them.
		
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Agreed, and I can't understand why they'd want them other than to look hard or participate in illegal dog fighting. 

I read the mother of the poor lady killed said these massive, ugly dogs were "her babies", there's endless breeds & types that could easily have filled that role without having the physical ability to end her life.


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## Clodagh (11 October 2022)

Tbh anyone who describes any dog as a baby is a worry to me. Especially when it’s one like an American Bully.


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## skinnydipper (11 October 2022)

Clodagh said:



			Tbh anyone who describes any dog as a baby is a worry to me. Especially when it’s one like an American Bully.
		
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Somebody sent me a message and referred to my dog as my "baby girl".  Nope.


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## stangs (11 October 2022)

Nasicus said:



			Pitnutters love to trot out the 'nanny dog' lie about pitbulls all the time unfortunately. Lets just completely ignore the fact they were bred and still are often bred to fight to the death.
		
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The ‘lie’ stems from the fact that they spent the late 19th century and early 20th century in the US being considered the epitome of a family dog, featuring in popular media as a kid’s dog. They were not bred for dog fighting any more than other breeds of a similar type.


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## SatansLittleHelper (11 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			For a start I don't see why any dog over a certain size shouldn't be required to be muzzled if off lead in public, with heavy penalties if they aren't and they damage a human or another animal.
.
		
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YCBM, sorry to pick on you specifically when so many of the above posts have angered me but this really made me angry, and sad, if Im honest. I have Great Danes, they are huge, gentle giants who do not deserve to be muzzled just because they are a certain size or weight. I'm sick to the back teeth of the size related comments. There are breeds that need to be more tightly controlled yes, banned?? Absolutely not. We are seeing more deaths and injuries from dogs for numerous reasons:
* So called "status" dogs owned by people who shouldn't be allowed near a hamster let alone a dog
* Too many idiots who bought dogs during lockdown and had no way of properly socialising and training them
* People being unrealistic about the breeds that suit their living situation (did you know that one of the main reason Great Danes are given up is because they get "too big"?!?!?)
* The pressure dogs are under in our modern society. We (generalised) expect WAY TOO MUCH from pet dogs nowadays. They are expected to live in smaller areas/houses as more smaller homes are built. They are expected to be home alone all day as more people work in the average household. We expect them to put up with all manner of abuse from children whose parents should know better. We expect them to fit in with our busy lives....too many dogs are under walked and under stimulated.

You simply cannot decide that all of any breed and/or owners are terrible. I don't have a solution,  I admit that. Too often the legislation we do have simply ends up targeting the innocent and those who should be culpable get away Scott free. We do need a way of policing things in order for it to have any real effect and sadly that's unlikely to happen. But when you start banning breeds it becomes a slippery slope, as someone said above.


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## DabDab (11 October 2022)

Breed specific legislation is problematic anyway, but particularly when a breed like the Pitbull is concerned. The Pitbull terrier is not some exotic, niche fighting breed - they are basically just oversized staffies and are one of the most popular pet dog breeds in the US.


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## CorvusCorax (11 October 2022)

Here's my boring repetitive ramble about 'protection'.

There's actually surprisingly few dogs that will protect 'a person', they're usually protecting their own space, IME.

Any dog can run at a moving object with a visual target going in the opposite direction (prey) but when the aggressor comes at them with no gear on (even hidden sleeves smell of sleeve, and bite suits/jackets are a wee bit visual ), out of context, a lot of dogs will initially run or avoid conflict.

I include ££££ 'personal protection dogs' in that, no matter what is shown in the fancy sales video...and even some police dogs, unfortunately.

And the type of dog that **does** naturally spark up at anyone and everything, and/or when it is not appropriate, isn't conducive to family/normal pet dog life.

As for training, I don't think there's much 'training' involved, to be honest.


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## splashgirl45 (11 October 2022)

Personally I don’t like any of the bull breeds, the look of them doesn’t appeal to me, but I don’t agree with banning them or insisting they are muzzled when out walking.  So many of these fatal attacks have been in the home and it’s been the owners or relatives who have been injured.  we need to crack down on all breeding of dogs of all types, too many people have been breeding dogs with no thoughts about physical problems or bad temperaments and they are making loads of money to the detriment of the dogs.  I think ALL breeders who advertise on the pet sites should be registered and it should be law that they are.


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## Moobli (11 October 2022)

This thread minded me of a case in France where a pregnant woman was killed by dog(s).  It was initially unclear whether it was the local hunting hounds that were hunting in the forest at the time, or her boyfriend’s “American Staffordshire Terrier”.  It sparked fierce arguments between pro and anti hunting. 
DNA was taken from 67 dogs and it was established it had in fact been the Staffordshire terrier who had bitten and killed the woman.


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## Clodagh (11 October 2022)

CorvusCorax said:



			And the type of dog that **does** naturally spark up at anyone and everything, and/or when it is not appropriate, isn't conducive to family/normal pet dog life.

As for training, I don't think there's much 'training' involved, to be honest.
		
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Training I agree. I doubt even a decent walk is in many of these owners repertoires. (Not meaning bite training particularly but just how to function in society as a dog type training). 
Harley, my Oz dog, was not an easy dog and would not have coped in normal family life. He was awesome and we loved him but he was very high maintenance. He guarded anything if it sat still for a minute.


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## Tiddlypom (11 October 2022)

I'm a bit off the pace here and getting muddled with other incidents referred to on here of people killed by dogs.

Is it confirmed that the 5 Liverpool killer dogs referred to in the thread title belonged to a relative of the woman who was killed by them?


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## Clodagh (11 October 2022)

Moobli said:



			This thread minded me of a case in France where a pregnant woman was killed by dog(s).  It was initially unclear whether it was the local hunting hounds that were hunting in the forest at the time, or her boyfriend’s “American Staffordshire Terrier”.  It sparked fierce arguments between pro and anti hunting. 
DNA was taken from 67 dogs and it was established it had in fact been the Staffordshire terrier who had bitten and killed the woman.
		
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It didn’t look like an English staffie though, or not the ones you used to see about. That had attacked before as well, but it was their baby. 🙄


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## Moobli (11 October 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			I'm a bit off the pace here and getting muddled with other incidents referred to on here of people killed by dogs.

Is it confirmed that the 5 Liverpool killer dogs referred to in the thread title belonged to a relative of the woman who was killed by them?
		
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I believe she and her son were breeding them so yes they belonged to the woman killed.


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## Moobli (11 October 2022)

Clodagh said:



			It didn’t look like an English staffie though, or not the ones you used to see about. That had attacked before as well, but it was their baby. 🙄
		
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No it was a big powerful looking dog, not what I would think of as a Staffie at all.


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## marmalade76 (11 October 2022)

Clodagh said:



			Tbh anyone who describes any dog as a baby is a worry to me. Especially when it’s one like an American Bully.
		
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Agreed, a dog is a dog and should be treated like one but if you are going to baby them, pick something small & cuddly.


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## CorvusCorax (11 October 2022)

Clodagh said:



			(Not meaning bite training particularly but just how to function in society as a dog type training).
		
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Same


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## skinnydipper (12 October 2022)

What a thread.  We seem to have gone from 

Ban all big or powerful breeds

Muzzle every dog

to

Nah, its fine

Select a breed because it looks intimidating

Allow a dog to bite using its own discretion, but not too hard.

Have at it, Fido 


Posting these links for info, but to be honest I would be more worried about what would happen to my dog if she bit someone.

https://www.rspca.org.uk/getinvolved/campaign/bsl/dda

https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public#:~:text=If you let your dog,unlimited fine (or both).


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## splashgirl45 (12 October 2022)

skinnydipper said:



			What a thread.  We seem to have gone from 

Ban all big or powerful breeds

Muzzle every dog

to

Nah, its fine

Select a breed because it looks intimidating

Allow a dog to bite using its own discretion, but not too hard.

Have at it, Fido 


Posting these links for info, but to be honest I would be more worried about what would happen to my dog if she bit someone.

https://www.rspca.org.uk/getinvolved/campaign/bsl/dda

https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public#:~:text=If you let your dog,unlimited fine (or both).
		
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Thanks for the links,  that one by the RSPCA was sensible .  What worries me about the gov one is the someone could report my dog if they feel worried it might bite☹️☹️  That is scarey .  I do put my lurcher pup on the lead if I see people approaching as he will jump up quite high and it could scare someone if they aren’t dog savvy but it drives me mad that I have my puppy on the lead and they come over and speak to him and try to stroke him even though I tell them not to.. It’s very difficult to deal with that and if they then said they were worried he could bite them it could be bad for my lovely friendly boy..through no fault of him or me…I don’t stroke other peoples dogs but even if I did if someone asked me not to touch it ,  I would obey not just carry on regardless ☹️☹️


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## skinnydipper (12 October 2022)

splashgirl45 said:



			Thanks for the links,  that one by the RSPCA was sensible .  What worries me about the gov one is the someone could report my dog if they feel worried it might bite☹️☹️  That is scarey .  I do put my lurcher pup on the lead if I see people approaching as he will jump up quite high and it could scare someone if they aren’t dog savvy but it drives me mad that I have my puppy on the lead and they come over and speak to him and try to stroke him even though I tell them not to.. It’s very difficult to deal with that and if they then said they were worried he could bite them it could be bad for my lovely friendly boy..through no fault of him or me…I don’t stroke other peoples dogs but even if I did if someone asked me not to touch it ,  I would obey not just carry on regardless ☹️☹️
		
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The problem is that some people seem to think they know better than the owner and then there's the "all dogs like me" brigade. I know how difficult it was keeping the idiots at bay when I had my last dog.  You can only do your best, sg.


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