# Young Dog Chasing (Killing) Hens



## 3Beasties (15 January 2016)

I'm after some advice please.

My cocker spaniel Lacey is 7 months old. I've had her since 7 weeks and since then she has been bought up around our free range hens.

Despite my best efforts she still finds these too tempting and given half a chance she will chase/catch and would kill. There have been some very close calls but thankfully all hens have lived to tell the tale.

It can't go on though. Up until recently while I am with her she would generally listen and stay away from them but I literally have to be 'on top' of her the whole time. It causes problems when I am not home and other people let her out though. Last week she managed to get hold of one (having not done so for a long time) and since then, even when I am with her she is going for them again. I know it's only natural for her but I need to sort it out.

Keeping the hens in isn't an option and I really don't want to have to keep her tied up every time we are outside. It's bad enough now (not many daylight hours when we are actually out with the hens) but come Summer it is going to be even worse!!

I will obviously speak to my trainer again when we start classes again but just wondering if there is anything I can be working on in the meantime! 

It is zero tolerance when it comes to chasing hens but the message just doesn't seem to be registering with her!


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## JillA (15 January 2016)

I introduce my dogs to the hens (and horses) on a long line, such as a soft lunge line. They feel the control but can free range more and if they dash towards something I stamp on the line. Has worked for several rehomed spaniels, but they were all adults, a pup has more trouble controlling their chase instinct. One way to have them learn to cope without chasing is to crate them so they can see but not chase. Works for dogs who chase cats as well, even my JRT


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## Equi (15 January 2016)

Never mastered it. My dog won't think about even looking at them with a stink eye if im about but as soon as im out of sight its curtains for the hens. Some of my hens have wandered into the dog pen never to be seen again. Might not work it out of her, and even if you think you have you may find them gone in the blink of an eye


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## bonny (15 January 2016)

What do you do when she does chase the chickens ?


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## twiggy2 (15 January 2016)

if she has worked out that she can chase when you are not there and she gets self rewarded by the chase then there is in my experience not much you ca do other than contain either the chicken or the dog-unfortunately dogs need never to learn they can do stuff we cannot see


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## Amymay (15 January 2016)

Sorry, but I'd be looking for an alternative way to keep the hens to ensure their safety.


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## Karran (15 January 2016)

No real advice i'm afraid but my cocker was the same and would go for the yard hens.
I have no idea what really clicked in her head but I would just keep her tied up or in the car but then one day she was out and playing with another dog and i realised she was copying him and ignoring the hens, even as they pecked around her. Is there perhaps another hen-friendly dog you could couple her to, to teach her the ropes? 

Mrs Spaniel now ignores the hens unless they run and then it gets all too tempting but its half-hearted and she stops as soon as I or anyone call her off.


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## 3Beasties (15 January 2016)

Thanks for the replies.

I've tried the long line idea. That's how she was introduced to them as a young pup. Problem is, she knows when she's on it and when she isn't!

When she goes for them I just have to try and grab her as all re-call goes completely out the window as she is completely in the hunt zone and nothing will break that. I've tried the nicey nicey, I've tried telling her off, neither work. She can be fine for weeks and then suddenly she sees her opportunity and strikes. The only time she really stayed away from them was when she got a shock from the electric fence that was around their pen.

Our other dog, a lab, is hen proof so she has got a good role-model!

Keeping the hens contained is not an option. Instead I need to find a way to be able to teach Lacey that hens are NOT, under any circumstances, an option.

ETA - I did think I had a bit more control over it as when out with her I would take a ball and keep her focused on that but tonight she went for a hen on route to getting the ball, hence posting tonight!


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## Alec Swan (15 January 2016)

The answer is simple;  You send the darling Lacey to me,  you go and have lunch,  you come back and collect her and she will never chase or kill another hen again,  ever.

If I can do it in 10 minutes,  so can you.

Alec.


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## 3Beasties (15 January 2016)

Would you mind pm'ing me please Alec, I'm very open minded


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## paddi22 (15 January 2016)

We never cracked it with ours. We ended up buying electric poultry netting and fancing them off from the dogs as I couldn't be sure 100% I could trust them. Ours didn't kill the hens they would just pull all their feathers out.


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## bonny (15 January 2016)

Alec is right, the dog needs to learn not to chase the chickens and that can only be done now if you really mean it !


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## 3Beasties (15 January 2016)

bonny said:



			Alec is right, the dog needs to learn not to chase the chickens and that can only be done now if you really mean it !
		
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I'm prepared to do what ever it takes, I want a dog I can trust. I know it can be done.


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## Doormouse (15 January 2016)

My patterdale x was a nightmare for chasing birds of any description, even to the point that she jumped into a river to chase a swan once, I nearly died of fright. She only ever managed to kill one but only because I never let her get the chance. 

One day when she was about 8, we had recently moved, and she went up the lane to visit the neighbours chickens and ducks. She met their goose and came home very fast indeed! She never chased another bird again.


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## bonny (15 January 2016)

I'll tell you about a shepherd I know but don't tell some on here or they'll be up in arms ! The man in question has the best dogs I know and the best relationship you could imagine with them all. They would do anything for him and with him scarcely having to say what to do. True one man dogs......anyway, one time I went round for a coffee and he had a young dog that barked when I pulled up. My shepherd friend went out and in no uncertain terms the dog was told that was unacceptable. That was it, non of his dogs barked, he thought it annoying and so wouldn't tolerate it. I and I expect Alec would be of the opinion that one short sharp lesson works better than any amount of softly softly training that never gets through to the dog .....just tell your dog it's not to chase the chickens and mean it !!


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## 3Beasties (15 January 2016)

Doormouse said:



			My patterdale x was a nightmare for chasing birds of any description, even to the point that she jumped into a river to chase a swan once, I nearly died of fright. She only ever managed to kill one but only because I never let her get the chance. 

One day when she was about 8, we had recently moved, and she went up the lane to visit the neighbours chickens and ducks. She met their goose and came home very fast indeed! She never chased another bird again.
		
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We do have a goose but one of  the first things she did when we got her home as a tiny pup was to chase him, it wasn't funny but quite a sight. She hasn't chased him for a lonnng time but although he is the hen's 'guard' she seems to  find away around him (we have a large property so I guess goose can't cover it all!)


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## Doormouse (15 January 2016)

3Beasties said:



			We do have a goose but one of  the first things she did when we got her home as a tiny pup was to chase him, it wasn't funny but quite a sight. She hasn't chased him for a lonnng time but although he is the hen's 'guard' she seems to  find away around him (we have a large property so I guess goose can't cover it all!)
		
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I suspect he was a very aggressive goose and I am fairly sure he pecked quite hard and certainly chased her which frightened her a lot. We had much the same with our rottie as a pup, we had an old ewe who had been a bottle fed lamb and in her old age lived in the yard. She saw the rottie pup wandering round the yard minding her own business and charged her, bowled her over and over. It was awful to watch but the rottie never ever chased sheep.


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## Alec Swan (15 January 2016)

Crikey,  I expected the wrath of the righteous.  A relief! 

3B,  I will share PMs with you if you like,  but an open discussion may prove to be of more use.  It's very rare for the most determined dogs to learn a lesson from one event.  I have a 4 yo Cocker bitch here,  and we have Guinea Fowl as well as everyday hens.  When she arrived (2 yo),  she caught one and killed it,  and though she's never done it again,  BUT &#8230;&#8230;.. every time she comes out of her kennel and sees them in the yard she looks at me to see if I'm watching her!  

We can't expect any sort of compliance from a dog when the basics of simple obedience aren't in place.  We pile temptation upon temptation,  slowly and only when we have a measure of control.  Expecting a dog 'not to' (and dear lord that applies to Cockers!),  is asking a bit much.  First,  we need compliance,  not from the standpoint that we're pleased or relieved,  but that we WILL be listened to.

The delight(?) of your dog,  for me is what decent spaniels are about.  Short of a visit to North Norfolk (though you'd be most welcome),  I'd suggest that you place a lead on her,  walk about amongst your hens and feed them,  and ANY attempt to chase them is jumped on and from a height.  Imposing your will upon the strong-willed isn't about causing pain but having the dog 'listen' to you. 

Another ploy could be that assuming that you have her in a 'down' position,  that you leave her where she is (scruff her and replace her if she moves) and you then feed the hens.  Any attempt to move needs remedying.  When she understands that the hens are your property,  then she'll show both them and you some respect!

The trainer of spaniels will use your pup's drive to good effect,  but that's not what you want,  I realise.  She sounds just about ideal!  To achieve a level of obedience,  and the maintenance of a reasonable flock,  young Lacey needs to understand,  and it may be a bumpy path.  Your level of displeasure is the only likely remedy (that or stick her in the post and send her to me!) 

Do you have any competent gun dog trainers near you?

Alec.


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## EQUIDAE (15 January 2016)

Once a dog chases it is very difficult to stop it as it self rewarding every time there is a slip up. The only way to protect your hens it either to shut them up when the dog is out, or keep the dog on a lead.


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## 3Beasties (15 January 2016)

Thank you for your reply Alec




			Crikey,  I expected the wrath of the righteous.  A relief! 

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Oh no, not at all, I am definitely in the 'short sharp lesson' camp with this one! She is however, above all, a pet. Lives in the house, shares my sofa and sometimes even my bed! 

My concern with dealing with this in a firmer way is that she seems to lack confidence around people and I would hate to do something that would set her back in terms of that. She is an odd one as comes across as VERY confident at times but in certain situations she's a real worrier and is really rather shy of people (something we are working on!). She also seems to takes offence very easily and it can take a while to get her back on side!

Saying that though, she is extremely trainable so I am sure there is a way to solve this. 




			3B,  I will share PMs with you if you like,  but an open discussion may prove to be of more use.  It's very rare for the most determined dogs to learn a lesson from one event.  I have a 4 yo Cocker bitch here,  and we have Guinea Fowl as well as everyday hens.  When she arrived (2 yo),  she caught one and killed it,  and though she's never done it again,  BUT .. every time she comes out of her kennel and sees them in the yard she looks at me to see if I'm watching her!
		
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If you weren't there and someone else let her out would she go for them? I can't be there all the time and I can't seem to drum into everyone else the importance of NOT giving her the chance to go, once she's gone it's too late, she's had her reward!




			The delight(?) of your dog,  for me is what decent spaniels are about.  Short of a visit to North Norfolk (though you'd be most welcome),  I'd suggest that you place a lead on her,  walk about amongst your hens and feed them,  and ANY attempt to chase them is jumped on and from a height.  Imposing your will upon the strong-willed isn't about causing pain but having the dog 'listen' to you. 

Another ploy could be that assuming that you have her in a 'down' position,  that you leave her where she is (scruff her and replace her if she moves) and you then feed the hens.  Any attempt to move needs remedying.  When she understands that the hens are your property,  then she'll show both them and you some respect!
		
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I will give both a try, thank you! I suspect she won't attempt to go for them if on a lead but we will see. Likewise, if I am right by her I'm not sure she will make her move. Every morning I let the hens out when she is with me. She will sit and stay a short way away from them (generally without me even telling her to) and then follows me away from them without a second glance BUT I don't know if that is more to do with the shock she got from the fence months ago and is therefore cautious around that area!




			The trainer of spaniels will use your pup's drive to good effect,  but that's not what you want,  I realise.  She sounds just about ideal!  To achieve a level of obedience,  and the maintenance of a reasonable flock,  young Lacey needs to understand,  and it may be a bumpy path.  Your level of displeasure is the only likely remedy (that or stick her in the post and send her to me!) 

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Her drive is rather incredible, and when it doesn't involve terrorising our hens I LOVE watching her work!! The speed in which she covers the ground is quite scary but does give me such a thrill. One of her favourite things to do is to find tennis balls so although not the 'real' thing in terms of working, she is getting to use and develop her natural instinct to hunt and retrieve. 




			Do you have any competent gun dog trainers near you?
		
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I'm sure there are but I wouldn't know who! Any ideas, Hereford area? Although I don't intend to 'work' her I have been thinking about some general lessons anyway as I think it would provide me with some useful training tools/exercises that could improve her general obedience and give her something to think about!

Here's a piccy of the little monkey!


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## Dry Rot (15 January 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			The answer is simple;  You send the darling Lacey to me,  you go and have lunch,  you come back and collect her and she will never chase or kill another hen again,  ever.

If I can do it in 10 minutes,  so can you.

Alec.
		
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Oh, I know! You are going to distract her with treats!


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## 3Beasties (15 January 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			Oh, I know! You are going to distract her with treats! 

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Oh treats are great for teaching useless things like this :biggrin3: :biggrin3:

[video=youtube;ICnfv9Qf7CQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICnfv9Qf7CQ[/video]

[video=youtube;B-OSiJBtZOM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-OSiJBtZOM[/video]

[video=youtube;mv8o8w7l72k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv8o8w7l72k[/video]

But fresh chicken wins over cooked sausage any day of the week in her eyes lol!


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## Dry Rot (15 January 2016)

I was being facetious!

My GSD pups are now 12 weeks old and have discovered the 30 or so OEG hens on free range. When they are in hot pursuit, I trundle along behind with a schooling whip and give them a whack on the butt at the same time as I shout "Leave!". They have suddenly discovered that chasing hens is not so much fun after all and now also respond to the 'Leave" command. The 'Leave"  is a warning that to continue to do what they are doing is dangerous, but other than that it is nothing to do with me.

IF they kill a hen (and that day will come), the corpse will be hung on the electric fence and I shall disown any association with it. If they get a shock, it is the hen that did it -- I am the nice guy at all times and won't be around to get the blame!


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## EQUIDAE (15 January 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			IF they kill a hen (and that day will come), the corpse will be hung on the electric fence and I shall disown any association with it. If they get a shock, it is the hen that did it -- I am the nice guy at all times and won't be around to get the blame!
		
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I did similar with my lurchers and lambs (let a ewe beat them up) - they say now adays that it can make them worse. Didn't with mine though...


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## Starzaan (16 January 2016)

Ok... I am prepared for the backlash that will come from me posting this, but I know it helped me so it's worth sharing! 

My Dane X Doberman was horrendous for chasing things when he was young. I got him from the blue cross at 6 months having had no training and no time outside until he got there. 

In the end the way I solved it (after trying EVERYTHING else) was to borrow an electric collar from the gamekeeper. He wore it for one day. He went to chase chickens, got a hefty zap, he went after the sheep, same thing. And now, ten years on, I trust him implicitly with all manner of farm animals. He is no longer a chaser. He's a pleasure. 

(Running away now).

Eta the thing that worked about the collar was that he didn't associate it with me. In his eyes the chickens and sheep zapped him, so he ran straight back to me. Worked wonders.


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## Cahill (16 January 2016)

according to my barbara woodhouse book (which was given to me by an undoggy person) you have to use a half dead chicken with some squalk left in it and whack the dog around the head with it.
other advice for car-chasers- get friend to drive by and if the dog attempts to chase the car then said friend lobs a book at the dog,preferably a yellow pages.

i am not saying to do this,it is just what i read in an old book.lol


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## Dry Rot (16 January 2016)

EQUIDAE said:



			I did similar with my lurchers and lambs (let a ewe beat them up) - they say now adays that it can make them worse. Didn't with mine though...
		
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Not quite the same thing. Yes, some dogs will be made worse. Terriers, for example, especially some breeds, will be 'turned on' by the infliction of pain. So, rat bites dog; dog then decides every rat should be eliminated. But some dogs will be put off rats altogether.

I do not approve of sticking a dog in with an aggressive ewe or tup. Much better to walk it through a field of sheep, on the lead, and tap is on the nose with a small switch when it even looks at sheep with the word "Leave!"  (Some will object to this because 'it hurts the dog'. No pain, no gain -- sadly!).  Sheep and lambs running away are particularly tempting. After a few lessons, the dog won't even want to look at sheep!

The short answer to the OP's question is that working dogs should be locked in a kennel unless under the immediate supervision of their owners. They have been bred with a high prey drive for centuries and it's a bit late to expect them to change their ways now. Also, chasing a ball is the sure way to train a dog to chase. Teach them to Sit on command when pups, then to Sit when they see something moving, like a rolled tennis ball, then it is easier to train them to Sit to a rabbit or a bird flushing, as they should do. The response should be automatic as you are merely replacing one behaviour (to chase) with another (to sit) which is what training should be all about.


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## JillA (16 January 2016)

Alec is right, it is just a question of HOW, and the very best way is how a bitch reprimands her pups. Scruff him, roll him on the ground and stand over him in a threatening manner until he becomes submissive. He won't be scared of you any more than he was scared of his mother, unlike if you wallop him, and he is a smallish dog, not sure I would want to do it with a GSD or a rottie .
Sudden sharp and very shocking makes them very reluctant to risk the same result in future - like the dog who chased a cat round the corner of a house and ran slap[ bang into a tiger. You just wouldn't risk it would you?


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## 3Beasties (16 January 2016)

Starzaan said:



			Ok... I am prepared for the backlash that will come from me posting this, but I know it helped me so it's worth sharing! 

My Dane X Doberman was horrendous for chasing things when he was young. I got him from the blue cross at 6 months having had no training and no time outside until he got there. 

In the end the way I solved it (after trying EVERYTHING else) was to borrow an electric collar from the gamekeeper. He wore it for one day. He went to chase chickens, got a hefty zap, he went after the sheep, same thing. And now, ten years on, I trust him implicitly with all manner of farm animals. He is no longer a chaser. He's a pleasure. 

(Running away now).

Eta the thing that worked about the collar was that he didn't associate it with me. In his eyes the chickens and sheep zapped him, so he ran straight back to me. Worked wonders.
		
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No back lash from me. It's no different to the shock she got off the electric fence but just means it works in all places, not just around the chicken house. Short, sharp lesson for what will hopefully be a lifetime  of peace.

(Not saying that this is what I will be doing but I am in no way against them being used correctly and have used one in the past myself!) *runs away with Starzaan*


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## Patchworkpony (16 January 2016)

Years ago we had exactly the same problem with our springer - unfortunately she did manage to kill a number of ducks and chickens. An old gamekeeper friend told me a trick to cure her. Bunny huggers look away now! We tied a dead duck to her collar for about ten days so that everywhere she went she trod or tripped over her feathered victim 24 hours a day. It was sad to watch but by the end she so hated this new companion that she wouldn't even look in the direction of the chickens etc. We finally removed it (much to the relief of all) and from that day on she gave the poultry a very wide berth, including walking round them the long way rather than go anywhere near them. It was a short sharp lesson she never forgot and when she chased our sheep she was locked in with a ram for a few minutes - that also worked.
If you don't have any 'casualties' to use try getting an intact bird from a butcher. This trick certainly worked for us and you have nothing to lose if you give it a try.


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## Teaselmeg (16 January 2016)

Firstly, she is gorgeous !!

'Jumping on top of her from a great height' will work, however, it is not teaching her what you want her to do it just makes her scared enough of you that she dare not do anything around you, not a relationship I would want with my lovely dog.  

Any decent trainer will help you, but this is how I would do it: 

 Start nowhere near the chickens and teach her impulse control - put some food in your hand, when she goes for it, close your hand, keep at it until she stops trying, then reward her. (Clicker training is great for this, but if you don't want to, it's not essential)  Most dogs pick this up really quickly, then progress to putting the food on the floor, then further away etc etc  until it becomes normal for her and you can add the leave it command. Then progress onto other things that she likes, toys etc then more and more enticing items until she understands that the leave it command means leave 'anything'  THEN start with the chickens.

This is good serious of videos to show this method:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEeS2dPpPtA

Yes it will take a few weeks and lots of your time, but your dog will learn what the leave it command means and the reward for her will be your praise and making you happy.


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## Clodagh (16 January 2016)

Good luck with training her, and I am glad you are not taking the advice of people to shut the chickens away, IMO they have as much right as the dog to a stress free and happy life. (I breed bantams). All our dogs are good with chickens, even the lab I use to retrieve them if they won't go where I want them to. We have had one terrier that wouldn't learn, the red mist used to descend with her, but all the others have been OK, I am sure you can do it. I am with the Alec and DR training camp, 'leave it' needs to be a very well understood command.


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## Alec Swan (16 January 2016)

3B,  Lacey brings SO MANY positives to the discussion. The problem is that there are,  equally,  so many points,  no more than observations,  and to make.  From the Pics and the Vids,  that is a very smart puppy,  VERY smart indeed.

Watching her she's not yet at the stage where she's wooden and deaf.  Landing on her from a great height will most probably have repercussions which will be detrimental,  at the moment.  A positive.

She listens to you and she makes eye contact,  and willingly it seems.  Another positive.

You have a clear understanding of how she sees 'cause and effect' and how you need to apply it.  Yet another positive.

The influence of others who have no idea what you're trying to achieve?  A huge and damaging negative.

I strongly suspect that Lacey needs something to focus on,  other than chasing chickens.  If you don't want to use her for her intended purpose,  then she needs something else to occupy her mind and her energies.  I'm assuming that she retrieves?  That's the first port of call,  I'd say.  She IS at the stage where a degree of self restraint (set up by you) will benefit her.  She needs to be steady to the thrown dummy and once that's achieved,  then no more sighted retrieves is how I'd go about it.  Find her a small toy, but never leave her with it.  It isn't actually a 'toy' for her to play with,  it's your property.  Once she's keen,  hide it under some cushions,  inside a coat pocket which is in reach and on the back of a chair,  and as she becomes more proficient,  so the searches are made more difficult.  

Pain or discomfort teach a dog nothing if they have no understanding of the reasoning and if they don't understand,  then any 'correction' will be counter-productive,  install confusion,  and you will achieve no more than building unnecessary hurdles to overcome.  Lacey looks to me to be at the stage where a hefty dose of 'verbals' would be enough.  If dogs don't understand correction,  then they learn to disregard any form of punishment.  She is not at the advanced stage where 'harsh' treatment is necessary,  in my humble opinion.

The first and potentially the most damaging influence is from those other humans who have control over her in your absence.  How you get around that,  I'm not so sure.  I'm fine with dogs but 'scruffing' humans seems to me to be a waste of time! 

I'll finish as I started,  you have a most appealing and a very smart puppy!  

Right,  I think that that's about it!  Good Luck! 


Alec.


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## Bellasophia (16 January 2016)

I have soft breeds these days,but can see the need for clear boundaries when you have a life or death situation regarding yr livestock and your dog...I'm with Alex ,the short sharp shock is effective and a lifetime memory for the dog.
 I walk past cattle here daily and oddly enough there is a ram in with them....I asked the farmer why.....he told me to bring my dogs up to the electric fence...this ram walked forward,squared up to my dogs and stamped his forelegs...
The farmer said it will kill any dog who enters the enclosed field.
These" sheep" are peccorino...huge beasts,twice as big as my 22 kilo dog...quite impressive!


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## twiggy2 (16 January 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			The short answer to the OP's question is that working dogs should be locked in a kennel unless under the immediate supervision of their owners. They have been bred with a high prey drive for centuries and it's a bit late to expect them to change their ways now.
		
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I agree and the dog has learnt what we all strive for our dogs not to learn and that is unless someone is physically there ad paying attention to the dog then the chasing of chickens is self rewarding, this in my experience is not a lesson that can be un learnt. It is why puppies need constant supervision.
It is easy to teach a dog not to do something when we re there and paying attention and bright dogs in particular need to be kept in such a way that when not supervised they cannot cause any trouble or come to harm..
Cause and effect is a great way for a dog to learn but you do not want to be seen to be the source of the effect-short sharp shock is one thing but scruffing /rolling and standing over a dog is not short and sharp it is threatening and does damage the foundation of a good working relationship between dog and handler, a bitch and her pups have a very different connection to a dog and a human. 
I want my dogs to be confident to try things without them wondering if I am going to lose the plot in and scare the hell out of them in a confrontational way. In the same token if I want the behaviour to cease as it is unwanted I make sure I am i control of the situation before it all goes wrong. 
chasing and catching are self rewarding so very hard to stop.
As for the person who had a shepherd and dealt with it the way was suggested shame o them, for 1, if you dont want a dog that tells you someone has arrived maybe it would be an idea not to get a guarding breed, 2, if the dog felt safe/secure and confident in the leadership of the owner then the need to bark is vastly reduced 3,why not just train a quiet command to stop the bark.
Non of my dogs have ever made a fuss about the postman or knocks at the door, my current rescue (I got her when she was almost 2 and she had been in kennels since she was 10 weeks) jumped out of her skin when the postman first put post through the door, I had made sure I could be around or she could come with me everywhere for the first week or so as much as poss,  so I just sat and ignored the post till later i the day, the next day I introduced her to the post man whilst on a walk, after a couple of days she stopped getting up to the sound of the post and carried on sleeping. lead by example ad dogs will often follow.


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## 3Beasties (17 January 2016)

Thank you all for your replies (and apologies for the late reply), they've definitely given me something to think about and some ideas to work with.

Patchworkpony - I have heard of that before too. A neighbour has done it with her dogs if they have ever killed one, I think she does it over night though, not for such a long period of time. I'm not sure it's something I could do though, I am a bit funny with dead things and don't think I could cope with one being dragged around the house - plus I think she'd probably eat it lol!

TM - We have done some impulse control as part of her general training so I will try and step that up a bit in preparation for introducing it around the chickens!

AS - Thank you, that means a lot coming from you. Yes she retrieves. Not in a proper working fashion but generally if I throw her the ball (does it matter that it's not a dummy?) she will bring it back (but sometimes in a round about way!). She is fairly steady to the ball when inside but we do need to work on it out in the open as when her blood is up she will break! Due to the weather though I have neglected outside training a bit I'm afraid so do need to get motivated again! 

Inside vid - (obviously I don't do the ready steady go thing all the time, I was just messing around with this!

[video=youtube;8GanysD-ecc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GanysD-ecc[/video]

We already do blind retrieves with the ball (again, only inside!) which she absolutely loves, I find it a great way of mentally challenging her!


Thank you to everyone else too. Like I said above, some great ideas to go forward with. She's very trainable and learns quickly (the good and the bad!) so I'm sure with time and patience we'll get there!


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## 3Beasties (17 January 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			The short answer to the OP's question is that working dogs should be locked in a kennel unless under the immediate supervision of their owners. They have been bred with a high prey drive for centuries and it's a bit late to expect them to change their ways now. Also, chasing a ball is the sure way to train a dog to chase.
		
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She is working bred yes, but, that doesn't mean she should be locked in a kennel. She is a pet above all else and she lives in the house. I chose the breed because I wanted an active dog with a trainable attitude. Yes she will have natural instincts but so will every dog, it doesn't mean that they can't be overcome or that a dog can't learn to control them. 

Equally, many dogs are allowed to chase balls, sticks, toys etc. That doesn't give them permission to chase everything else as well.


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## EQUIDAE (17 January 2016)

3Beasties said:



			many dogs are allowed to chase balls, sticks, toys etc. That doesn't give them permission to chase everything else as well.
		
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But one that does chase, continuing to do this is going to make the situation worse not better. Same goes with squeaky toys - absolute no go with a dog that kills. As for permission to chase everything else - they don't know the difference.


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## druid (17 January 2016)

Working dogs need not be locked in kennels - mine live in. An e collar or one well timed telling off will stop the chasing. I taught a 6yo lurcher who was chasing and killing deer on his own (previous home) not to chase deer or any livestock with an e collar - he wore it for a week not turned on, we went to a forest full of deer and I turned him loose. A deer popped up, he set off like his tail was on fire and I pushed a button. No command, no recall, no reprimand. It took less than twenty seconds for him to pull up looking confused and a bit unhappy. Then I used the recall whistle and offered some roast chicken. Rinse and repeat twice more. Deer hurt, so do sheep, as far as he is concerned. He's completely stock broken now and works as a retriever with the gundogs - I can safely send him into a field of sheep for a bird without cause for concern.


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## Alec Swan (17 January 2016)

I've never used any device which imparts an electric shock to a dog,  and for the very simple reason that I don't have the necessary experience of dog training.  

It's my opinion that for joe-public,  those like me who don't really know what they're doing,  they are evil devices and should be banned,  and by law.

Alec.


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## planete (17 January 2016)

EQUIDAE said:



			But one that does chase, continuing to do this is going to make the situation worse not better. Same goes with squeaky toys - absolute no go with a dog that kills. As for permission to chase everything else - they don't know the difference.
		
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On the other hand, if you have a high prey drive dog, it is pretty useless trying to kiil off the prey drive.  If you do not want the dog to do what he was bred for you have to redirect his hunting instinct towards other things like balls and toys.  By teaching him to retrieve correctly, with self-control, by teaching to give his all at flyball or by motivating him to hurl himself around an agility course with the help of squeaky toys to start with you can give him a satisfying life.  Not quite sure I agree with your reasoning there but I am willing to accept it may be true for some dogs, though not for mine as I have always tried to work with their instinct and not against it.


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## 3Beasties (17 January 2016)

planete said:



			On the other hand, if you have a high prey drive dog, it is pretty useless trying to kiil off the prey drive.  If you do not want the dog to do what he was bred for you have to redirect his hunting instinct towards other things like balls and toys.  By teaching him to retrieve correctly, with self-control, by teaching to give his all at flyball or by motivating him to hurl himself around an agility course with the help of squeaky toys to start with you can give him a satisfying life.  Not quite sure I agree with your reasoning there but I am willing to accept it may be true for some dogs, though not for mine as I have always tried to work with their instinct and not against it.
		
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Exactly! I use a ball when I'm walking her. She gets to work but in a controlled way. She remains focused on me. Without a ball she becomes selectively deaf as she starts hunting the natural smells that she picks up.

Likewise, the ball helps with her agility training as her drive to get it complements her desire to learn.


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## EQUIDAE (17 January 2016)

3Beasties said:



			Exactly! I use a ball when I'm walking her. She gets to work but in a controlled way. She remains focused on me. Without a ball she becomes selectively deaf as she starts hunting the natural smells that she picks up.

Likewise, the ball helps with her agility training as her drive to get it complements her desire to learn.
		
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Yet she is killing chickens so it is obviously not working. You can't have it both ways unfortunately. You need to shut the dog or chickens away if you are not going to address the chase behaviour - she needs to learn that chase is unacceptable, until the point you can call her off - and it sounds like you are a long way from that point.

ETA - I have lurchers so I have a decent amount of experience with dogs with a high prey drive. They don't play fetch, they don't have squeaky toys, they don't kill my chickens (or cats). They do have scent targeted play, they get off lead speed play, but never anything that would start they prey drive - once they learn to chase and kill you have already lost your battle. Much better not to put them in that position in the first place.


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## druid (17 January 2016)

EQUIDAE said:



			ETA - I have lurchers so I have a decent amount of experience with dogs with a high prey drive. They don't play fetch, they don't have squeaky toys, they don't kill my chickens (or cats). They do have scent targeted play, they get off lead speed play, but never anything that would start they prey drive - *once they learn to chase and kill you have already lost your battle.* Much better not to put them in that position in the first place.
		
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Emphasis mine. Not true, read my post further up the thread - all dogs even lurchers can be stock broken if done correctly. Even if they have chased and killed.


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## EQUIDAE (17 January 2016)

druid said:



			Emphasis mine. Not true, read my post further up the thread - all dogs even lurchers can be stock broken if done correctly. Even if they have chased and killed.
		
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Yes, by an experienced person. The OP allows the dogs and chickens time together unsupervised - not intentionally as sometimes others let them out by accident, but in this situation the dog will never be trained.


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## EQUIDAE (17 January 2016)

There is a simlar thread here with a working dog OP - you may be interested in following it.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?718010-Shooting-Bolting-the-line-(

One piece of advice that was very sensible was this



twiggy2 said:



			practice practice practice, not on the field though.
set up senarios that make the dog break the wait/stay-then practice practice practice.
Although a dog that has learnt it can bolt is unlikely to ever be 100% reliable.
Until a dog is 100% reliable the opportunity to bolt should never be available to it.
If the dog bolts on the field it needs to be kept on the lead.
		
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## 3Beasties (17 January 2016)

EQUIDAE said:



			Yes, by an experienced person. The OP allows the dogs and chickens time together unsupervised - not intentionally as sometimes others let them out by accident, but in this situation the dog will never be trained.
		
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I have never said that I leave my dog unsupervised with the hens.

I disagree. This dog will be trained but thank you for the vote of confidence.


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## druid (17 January 2016)

3Beasties said:



			I have never said that I leave my dog unsupervised with the hens.

I disagree. This dog will be trained but thank you for the vote of confidence.
		
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I often have the blooming bantams come and join me in the meadow when training pups - they learn to ignore them quickly and will retrieve from beyond or amidst them once they know they're not for touching.


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## EQUIDAE (17 January 2016)

3Beasties said:



			I have never said that I leave my dog unsupervised with the hens.
		
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You said people accidentally let him out - this is what I mean. As long as that is happening you will get nowhere - all your training will be undone. It's not about lack of confidence in your training, it's about the situation that the dog (and chickens) are being put it. Until you have trained the dog to leave them on every single occasion this cannot happen - every time the dog accidentally gets let out, your training is undone. You're going to end up more and more frustrated and the dog more confused. Everyone needs to be on boards in the training phase. The question is how you are going to train the dog that chickens are not for eating now he has already decided that they are?


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## Dry Rot (17 January 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			Not quite the same thing. Yes, some dogs will be made worse. Terriers, for example, especially some breeds, will be 'turned on' by the infliction of pain. So, rat bites dog; dog then decides every rat should be eliminated. But some dogs will be put off rats altogether.

I do not approve of sticking a dog in with an aggressive ewe or tup. Much better to walk it through a field of sheep, on the lead, and tap is on the nose with a small switch when it even looks at sheep with the word "Leave!"  (Some will object to this because 'it hurts the dog'. No pain, no gain -- sadly!).  Sheep and lambs running away are particularly tempting. After a few lessons, the dog won't even want to look at sheep!

The short answer to the OP's question is that working dogs should be locked in a kennel unless under the immediate supervision of their owners. They have been bred with a high prey drive for centuries and it's a bit late to expect them to change their ways now. Also, chasing a ball is the sure way to train a dog to chase. Teach them to Sit on command when pups, then to Sit when they see something moving, like a rolled tennis ball, then it is easier to train them to Sit to a rabbit or a bird flushing, as they should do. The response should be automatic as you are merely replacing one behaviour (to chase) with another (to sit) which is what training should be all about.
		
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I'd make it illegal for people who can't read to own a dog, let alone those who misquote!


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## druid (18 January 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			I'd make it illegal for people who can't read to own a dog, let alone those who misquote! 

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If you're replying to me (?) I meant only that working dogs don't need to be kennelled not that they shouldn't be supervised.


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## Alec Swan (18 January 2016)

3B,  reading your further posts,  I suspect that there needs to be an improved or increased level of discipline installed.  'Discipline' for most Cockers tends to be as a 'screw' and when we find that we've perhaps rather over done it,  so we relax the screw,  just a little.  If we have riot to deal with,  then we go back to the beginning.  The basics of discipline should never be attempted,  in my view,  when there are temptations in the puppy's path,  chickens for instance!  Once the down-and-stay are installed and the 'stay' needs to be for several minutes,  then we can move forwards.

Similarly,  once lead work is in place,  so it's important that upon release the dog isn't aloud to fly off in to the distance immediately.  The dog needs to be released by voice,  so we impose our will upon the dog.  If we ignore the basics and if we cut corners,  so we'll almost certainly pay the price,  even if it is further down the line of our progress.

Back to the 'down';  when we have control in place,  then that will be the time to return to your hens.  You should be able,  after you're confident,  to have the puppy lie down and sling a handful of corn to the hens and they can feed around her and have her ignore them,  but that may take some time to achieve!  The trick with spaniels,  I've always found,  is to remember that we have the vital tool of discipline to return to to correct our mistakes,  or conversely we can relax the screw,  just a little if perhaps we find that we've soured the dog.

You're entirely right in that if you don't want to use your dog for its intended purpose,  that you replace that with a secondary 'purpose' for her.  Many years ago I sold a cracking but headstrong Cocker pup to the Met Police as a search dog.  She was the first Cocker that they'd ever had and she was the start of their own breeding programme.  She was just too strong for shooting,  but given another job of work,  she excelled and whilst all the basics were in place when she arrived with them,  instead of the usual 4 months training programme,  she was out and working within 6 weeks of her arrival with them,  as a bomb dog.  Anyway,  that's rather wandering away from the point!  

I feel sure that you'll make progress and surprise yourself at the progress which you can make,  but first you will need to have a greater degree of control in place,  I feel sure!  Good Luck!

Alec.


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## Dry Rot (18 January 2016)

Years ago spaniels used to be hunted in packs, expected to work within half a gunshot, be steady to game, and some might be trained to retrieve. The vital word is "trained". Colonel Hutchinson's "Dog Breaking" (where Peter Moxon got most of his material from!) explains this and although published in the 1800's is still a good read.







Not spaniels, but working pointers and setters which usually have more drive than spaniels so ought, in theory, to be harder to control. There are 18 dogs in the photo with more out of shot, total about 30.


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## Alec Swan (18 January 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..






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I do enjoy your pics DR of your large groups of dogs on a patient and waiting 'down'.  I remember those mornings of years ago (NOT with the numbers which you had!) and when coffee in hand and sitting on a tree stump,  rolling a smoke,  and we had 10 or 20 minutes of 'down'-time.  They were cathartic and calming mornings from which both dog and man benefited.  When the DG and I first got together,  we'd sit in the wood shed,  in the evening sun,  a huge G&T apiece,  and 4 or 5 collies all yawning aloud their boredom sprawled out before us,  with a tolerated degree of squirming going on!  

Halcyon Days.

Alec.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (19 January 2016)

I cannot believe that in this day in age there are still people recommending physically punishing a dog. Why don't you get someone to put a shock collar on yourselves and get them to try and teach you something by giving you electric shocks? There should be NO 'quick fixes' when it comes to dog training.  If a dog has such an ingrained chase drive then don't let them off lead near chickens, sheep, etc and separate the dog and other animals with a fence. It's that simple! My own dogs would probably kill a cat if they got hold of one and it's for that reason that they don't get off lead in areas where they are likely to see one. They do however get off lead in other places so aren't confined to a lead all the time.


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## ester (19 January 2016)

Our yard has a freedom fence which kind of works on the same principle, it means that neither yard dog escapes through the gate if it has been left open/find a hole in the field hedge.

If it keeps them safe and means that they otherwise get a great life ratting on the yard etc I don't really see the issue. Presumably people are still recommending it because it works?


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## niko (19 January 2016)

I have had chickens and dogs for years and never a problem until I got my new dog. She is a working german shepherd and like your Cocker would do exactly the same.  Unless you were on her she would take any opportunity. I needed a solution that would also work when I wasn't 'on her' which isn't feasible 24/7 but also not connect me to the reprimand.
I put the chickens behind an electric fence, when she went for one she got shocked. This happened a couple of times and now they can walk about and she won't go near them as she associates it with an electric shock!
I dont hit my dog so I needed a solution.  She is now over a year and has worked for 6 months.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (19 January 2016)

ester said:



			Our yard has a freedom fence which kind of works on the same principle, it means that neither yard dog escapes through the gate if it has been left open/find a hole in the field hedge.

If it keeps them safe and means that they otherwise get a great life ratting on the yard etc I don't really see the issue. Presumably people are still recommending it because it works?
		
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By 'freedom fence' you mean electric fence? Am I right? If so then there have been numerous cases of them failing and dogs getting out anyway. They also won't stop unwanted dogs and other animals getting in and attacking/causing problems for your dog! That is why physical fences are so much better and a lot more humane as well. Would you like to have your boundaries dictated by an electric shock?


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## ester (19 January 2016)

It isn't my dog, or my solution to the problem but after initial training they know where the line is (half way down the field) and don't go near it whether it is working or not. 

It does fail (emits the most annoying beep from the barn) but the dogs don't seem to know that and I do struggle to see it is much different to my horse having his boundaries dictated by an electric shock too and obviously compared to a human operated E-collar has no human element to go wrong. They do have a physical fence too but over a couple of acres (house and yard) plugging any very small terrier sized gaps is a bit tricky and knowing that they will only bark at the dustman from a distance rather than dash out on to the road because someone has opened the gate to leave the yard and go to work does seem quite sensible to me.

We don't have issues with any other random animals coming and attacking the dogs, I'm not sure where you live that this would be a problem!?, we are quite low density I suppose, Louie the lurcher from next door has been known to take a fancy to the cat but if she goes in his garden then . Everyone else is very social, the collies the other side have a regular fab hide and seek game round the hedge on the way back from their walk but everyone is very civil. What does drive me mad is the horse owner on the yard whose dog has gone up through the garden gate and out onto the road several times, in the dark and she seems not to care a jot when people retrieve her.


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## Clodagh (19 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			By 'freedom fence' you mean electric fence? Am I right? If so then there have been numerous cases of them failing and dogs getting out anyway. They also won't stop unwanted dogs and other animals getting in and attacking/causing problems for your dog! That is why physical fences are so much better and a lot more humane as well. Would you like to have your boundaries dictated by an electric shock?
		
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So you disagree with electric fences for horses as well?


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## druid (19 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			I cannot believe that in this day in age there are still people recommending physically punishing a dog. Why don't you get someone to put a shock collar on yourselves and get them to try and teach you something by giving you electric shocks? There should be NO 'quick fixes' when it comes to dog training.  If a dog has such an ingrained chase drive then don't let them off lead near chickens, sheep, etc and separate the dog and other animals with a fence. It's that simple! My own dogs would probably kill a cat if they got hold of one and it's for that reason that they don't get off lead in areas where they are likely to see one. They do however get off lead in other places so aren't confined to a lead all the time.
		
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I have shocked myself with the collar - it's no harsher than a static shock from a car door. If my lurcher wasn't stock broken he'd be dead there is no where that doesn't have deer, rabbits, sheep or chickens to walk in locally


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## Alec Swan (19 January 2016)

druid said:



			I have shocked myself with the collar - it's no harsher than a static shock from a car door. &#8230;&#8230;..
		
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I have to ask,  why did you think that a lurcher which you couldn't otherwise stop from worrying livestock and poultry,  was such a good idea?

Alec.


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## Clodagh (19 January 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			I have to ask,  why did you think that a lurcher which you couldn't otherwise stop from worrying livestock and poultry,  was such a good idea?

Alec.
		
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You sound like my husband! He was livid when I went and got a lurcher and threatened to shoot her on several occasions, more than once she survived the night by the skin of her teeth.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (19 January 2016)

Clodagh said:



			So you disagree with electric fences for horses as well?
		
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I don't have horses and have only had childhood experiences of working with them. Do I agree with the reliance of electric shocks to contain any kind of animal? No I do not. 



druid said:



			I have shocked myself with the collar - it's no harsher than a static shock from a car door. If my lurcher wasn't stock broken he'd be dead there is no where that doesn't have deer, rabbits, sheep or chickens to walk in locally
		
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What was the collar set at when you shocked yourself? And do keep in mind that a dog's skin is thinner than human skin. I have also had quite a few static shocks and some have really hurt. Both my dogs wear fleeces and there's been the occasional time when there has been a big build up of static in them. When taking them off on those times (over their heads with the fleeces making contact with their ears) both my dogs whimpered and once my Greyhound let out a big yelp. I hated the fact that their fleeces caused them discomfort and pain and have been extremely careful while taking their fleeces off since. So don't tell me that shock collars don't hurt because they jolly well do! What's the point of them otherwise? It doesn't matter if you 'only have to zap them once'. The fact remains that on that one time you *deliberately* caused your dog to feel discomfort and pain. That to me is totally unacceptable. 

You are also a horse person right? So presumably you have access to indoor/outdoor arenas or fields you can access when they are empty. If so then you have safe areas for your dog to be off lead. Your dog absolutely doesn't have to be off lead on every walk, right?


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## Alec Swan (19 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. . Do I agree with the reliance of electric shocks to contain any kind of animal? No I do not. 

&#8230;&#8230;..
		
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All so often,  and often in the spring,  horses need to live in paddocks whilst having their grazing restricted.  Perhaps they could be prone to laminitis or they're good doers and the weight goes on in a rush,  perhaps the owner wants to make hay from the grass which is being saved.  How would you get around the problem,  without electric fencing?

Alec.


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## ester (19 January 2016)

Quite, 
and surely the thickness of the skin isn't actually the key point, it is the amount of nerve endings?

I struggle to understand the outrage of electric fencing, or that dogs should be exercised in arenas (not dog proof, neither are fields, and very few people have an indoor and those that do are unlikely to want dogs in them much!)


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## laura_nash (19 January 2016)

ester said:



			I struggle to understand the outrage of electric fencing, or that dogs should be exercised in arenas (not dog proof, neither are fields, and very few people have an indoor and those that do are unlikely to want dogs in them much!)
		
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Quite, and if they do have a dog proof field its probably because its got electric fencing around it!


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## planete (19 January 2016)

As for doing away with electric fencing, just try strip grazing cattle without it! Somebody needs to go and do some work experience on a farm methinks, and have to retrieve cattle that have broken through into a field of kale or mend unprotected permanent fences that have been rubbed on or chewed to bits.


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## druid (19 January 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			I have to ask,  why did you think that a lurcher which you couldn't otherwise stop from worrying livestock and poultry,  was such a good idea?

Alec.
		
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When I met him he was tied to a fence about to be shot, what would you have done?


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## druid (19 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			You are also a horse person right? So presumably you have access to indoor/outdoor arenas or fields you can access when they are empty. If so then you have safe areas for your dog to be off lead. Your dog absolutely doesn't have to be off lead on every walk, right?
		
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He's perfectly safe off lead everywhere now except near traffic where I pop him on a lead. Much more pleasant for both of us. I only took him on because he was going to be shot, if I hadn't stepped in he'd be dead but hey, he wouldn't have felt the bullet so that's ok, right?


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## Alec Swan (19 January 2016)

druid said:



			When I met him he was tied to a fence about to be shot, what would you have done?
		
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I'd have 'made' him stock-proof,  or shot him.  'Stock' and his natural 'Quarry' are two totally different things.  I've had a great many lurchers over the years and bred a few too,  and have never yet had one dog which wasn't safe with poultry or farm stock.

Alec.


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## druid (19 January 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			I'd have 'made' him stock-proof,  or shot him.  'Stock' and his natural 'Quarry' are two totally different things.  I've had a great many lurchers over the years and bred a few too,  and have never yet had one dog which wasn't safe with poultry or farm stock.

Alec.
		
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I have made him stock proof, the reason he was to be shot was because he kept attacking deer and sheep when taken lamping. None of my dogs have an issue with livestock, deer or birds


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## 3Beasties (19 January 2016)

I'm not going to get into a debate about electric collars, fencing, freedom fence etc as I made my view clear early in the thread but I just wanted to say...

That while I agree that no one should intentionally cause discomfort to a dog, I do believe in certain situations it is better for them to have one short shock that then enables them to have the freedom that they should have (imo). 

Without chicken proofing my dog she will need to be on the lead every time she is in the garden. Every time she helps me do the horses. Every time I walk near my neighbours house and every time I am walking somewhere I don't know to ensure that she doesn't chase. Every time we have a bbq, she would be inside. Every time we played outside, she would be inside or tied up. She wouldn't be able to be part of our family in the way she should be. She should be allowed to run free, to keep her on a lead for the rest of her life would be a crime and I honestly don't think I could do it to her, she was born to run!
There is no other way of keeping the hens and her seperated; the only option we would have is to get rid of the hens but that does not solve the problem of taking her elsewhere. 
I want a dog I can trust. I want a dog that I can take anywhere. If one small shock was what was needed (2 seconds of discomfort)  for a lifetime of freedom then I really do think it is worth it. And if she could talk I reckon she'd agree too!


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## blackcob (19 January 2016)

As a fluffy bunny type I've been avoiding this thread until now but I have to ask - is there a reason the chickens can't be penned in?


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## EQUIDAE (19 January 2016)

blackcob said:



			As a fluffy bunny type I've been avoiding this thread until now but I have to ask - is there a reason the chickens can't be penned in?
		
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Because the OP doesn't agree with it and doesn't agree with having the dog on a lead - irresponsible really. Let's just hope the dog doesn't pay the price for this on a walk...


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## 3Beasties (19 January 2016)

EQUIDAE said:



			Because the OP doesn't agree with it and doesn't agree with having the dog on a lead - irresponsible really. Let's just hope the dog doesn't pay the price for this on a walk...
		
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I never said I didn't agree with it although given a choice, yes, I would rather keep them free range, they have been so all their life so it seems unfair to change that now. They live in a shed by night, they have free range of our property the rest of the time. There is no option of shutting them in without building a run - something I can not do at the moment.

As to the lead. I have no problem walking her on a lead, I did so tonight, and no doubt will do so again by the end of the week. My preference is to have her off though. When she's older she will come running with me and also riding with the horses, obviously for that she needs to be 100% trustworthy off the lead.

I do not however agree with having to put her on a lead when ever I open the back door when a bit of training is all that is needed to avoid it.

I am sorry if me asking for advice on how to train my dog has offended you. I could have posted saying that my young active dog will never be off the lead and/or my free range hens will be shut in for ever more as I didn't want to put any effort into training  her. I wonder what kind of response I would have got from people then?! 

As to being irresponsible - if that's what you want to call someone for trying to train and overcome an issue than so be it; I personally have a very different definition of the word.


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## 3Beasties (19 January 2016)

Training started tonight with a sausage circle. She 'stayed' for a minute which I thought was pretty good for her first attempt!


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## Alec Swan (19 January 2016)

3B,  there's one thing which is certain,  your little dog will learn far more from you whilst she's 'off' the lead,  than whilst she's 'on' it.  Once you have her attention from the point of view of compliance,  then you'll find that when she's on a lead,  she has no real need to think about you because you're just on the other end of a bit of string.  When you truly have her attention and when she's focused on you then she'll find that she no longer has the lead to rely on,  she'll have to consider you and where you are.  

OK,  so to get to the happy state which you need,  it may be a rather bumpy ride,  for a while,  but when discipline's installed,  then you'll be able to put up some proper vids! :wink3: 

Will Clullee (Poolgreen Gundogs) is in Shropshire (I think),  he certainly won't be that far from you.  Why don't you google him and ask if you can have an hour with him,  he'll charge you for it,  but it'll be the best £50(?) that you've spent for a while.  He's as good as there is in this country with Cockers and though he may disagree with the odd point that I've made,  he'll demonstrate how its done.  He's also a really nice bloke too.

Alec.


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## Clodagh (20 January 2016)

As someone who has lots of chickens -why should they be shut in? I know they are 'only' chickens, but I really don't see that their life should be compromised. OP is training the pup, she asked on here for ideas, it has gone off at a tangent (who would believe that!), but I am sure that the pup will end up safe around the chickens. We all use training tools that others deem inappropriate but to call 'irresponsible' the wish to neither have a dog always on a lead or chickens always shut in a pen is a bit simplistic.


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## Clodagh (20 January 2016)

3Beasties said:



			I never said I didn't agree with it although given a choice, yes, I would rather keep them free range, they have been so all their life so it seems unfair to change that now. They live in a shed by night, they have free range of our property the rest of the time. There is no option of shutting them in without building a run - something I can not do at the moment.

As to the lead. I have no problem walking her on a lead, I did so tonight, and no doubt will do so again by the end of the week. My preference is to have her off though. When she's older she will come running with me and also riding with the horses, obviously for that she needs to be 100% trustworthy off the lead.

I do not however agree with having to put her on a lead when ever I open the back door when a bit of training is all that is needed to avoid it.

I am sorry if me asking for advice on how to train my dog has offended you. I could have posted saying that my young active dog will never be off the lead and/or my free range hens will be shut in for ever more as I didn't want to put any effort into training  her. I wonder what kind of response I would have got from people then?! 

As to being irresponsible - if that's what you want to call someone for trying to train and overcome an issue than so be it; I personally have a very different definition of the word.
		
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more, stick to your guns, these people whos animals never have freedom through lack of training are the ones in the wrong, not you. I agree with Alec's suggestion o going to see a spaniel man for some pointers.


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## druid (20 January 2016)

I'll happily recommend Will too - have trained with him and am picking up a pup from in Spring


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## Goldenstar (20 January 2016)

I trained my friends lurcher not to chase cats it was adult and with me for six months while it's owner was abroad it was not that hard and she was a hardened cat chaser and at the end of six months they where sleeping on the bed together I am sure OP's dog can be trained to be chicken proof .


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## 3Beasties (20 January 2016)

Thank you for the trainer recommendation, I will investigate and try and sort some sessions out with him.

I've been working on making sure that 'stay' means stay this week in the hope that it will make her a bit steadier and learn to resist temptation. She's always been a bit dodgey with this, especially outside when I'm using a ball thrower but today I tried it around 10 times and she didn't break once. Will increase the time gradually over the new few days and then start making it a bit trickier for her!

[video=youtube;elEFymrz-_E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elEFymrz-_E[/video]


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## druid (20 January 2016)

Well done, I had a thought - have a look at place board training. It might help with her steadiness. My aim is to pop them on the board, go make a cup of tea and the dog not to have moved an inch. I need mine steady for picking up so I do lots of work on it


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## EQUIDAE (20 January 2016)

druid said:



			Well done, I had a thought - have a look at place board training. It might help with her steadiness. My aim is to pop them on the board, go make a cup of tea and the dog not to have moved an inch. I need mine steady for picking up so I do lots of work on it 

Click to expand...

I do this with mine with mats in the kitchen - mainly when we are eating as lurchers are quite good at sneaking things off plates/counters. Plus I can't stand dogs mooching. Works well


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## Dry Rot (21 January 2016)

The answer to the OP's question (how to teach dog not to chase hens) is very simple. Aversion therapy.

The dog in JillA's story chased a cat because it did not fear the cat. It chased it around a corner when it turned into a tiger. The dog did not chase the tiger because it instinctively fears tigers. 

The dog chases hens because it is not afraid of hens. The clue is in the story above. The OP has to devise some means (preferably several) of convincing the dog that hens have become tigers. One of the first things I'd do is to get a dead hen and hang it on the electric fence. The aversion is self taught. That is the direction my logic would take.

Nothing to do with the owner. No commands or even his/her presence is necessary. Nothing to do with the social hierarchy. Nothing to do with instilling steadiness. Nothing to do with teaching "Leave". But all these are still essential elements of dog training and need to be taught. But to answer the original question, the psychology is different.

Ball games are excellent for instilling obedience. A thrown ball is very tempting and the game can encourage and teach a dog to chase. For that reason, it is a useful training tool. It can be used to teach a dog NOT to chase or stop chasing when told ('Sit", "Leave" or simply "Come Here"). I would never regard any dog of mine as trained until I could stop it, dead, when running flat out after a thrown ball. (And that can easily be taught with a check cord of known length that brings the dog to an abrupt halt at a defined point, synchronised with the command). I used to encourage my dogs to chase the swallows and butterflies flying over my fields simply as they were a temptation I could use to instill the 'Sit'. The stop (Sit, Down, Hup, whatever) is as vital in a trained dog as the brakes are on a car. The 'Come Here" is the steering.

Turning the requirement on it's head, it is sometimes necessary in dog training to convince a dog that the 'tiger' is in fact a pussy cat! Man work with protection dogs is one of them. The dog is not "beaten and tormented with a stick" as someone suggested on another thread, but quite the reverse -- it is encouraged to win. The decoy occasionally runs away, screams in pain, writhes on the ground, etc. Same thing when starting a young sheepdog. It is allowed to chase sheep that run away and do not pose a threat. It will definitely not be put in a position where an old ewe or a tup can dominate it or attack it. I can think of dozens of similar examples. So why not teach a dog to avoid hens simply by applying the same psychology, but in reverse? Not all training can be done with treats and in life not all learning is pain free. My grandmother taught me that when I thought it was fun to play with matches!


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## Lanky Loll (21 January 2016)

This stopped our Working Cocker from chasing the chickens as a young pup:
First they invaded her room (my utility): 





Then they wouldn't let her through: 





Then we had a Mexican standoff:





Then they chased her down the garden:






She was a bit younger than your pup though - about 4/5 months at this point and the hens were proper feisty biddys (ex-batts).

She's never chased a hen since though and would happily be around their house whilst I cleaned it out and be in the garden with them.  Sadly though the ladies were no match for the fox when we were home slightly later than usual one evening


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## Slightlyconfused (21 January 2016)

My collies used to chase the rabbits..... Until I let the big brute of a rabbit out in the garden who beat them up.
Then quickly learned to leave the rabbits alone. 
At one point I came into the kitchen to find the dogs sat waiting to go out the dog flap and the rabbit was sat the other side waiting for them  they wouyonly go.out if that rabbit was back in his hutch.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (22 January 2016)

3Beasties said:



			I never said I didn't agree with it although given a choice, yes, I would rather keep them free range, they have been so all their life so it seems unfair to change that now. They live in a shed by night, they have free range of our property the rest of the time. There is no option of shutting them in without building a run - something I can not do at the moment.

As to the lead. I have no problem walking her on a lead, I did so tonight, and no doubt will do so again by the end of the week. My preference is to have her off though. When she's older she will come running with me and also riding with the horses, obviously for that she needs to be 100% trustworthy off the lead.

I do not however agree with having to put her on a lead when ever I open the back door when a bit of training is all that is needed to avoid it.

I am sorry if me asking for advice on how to train my dog has offended you. I could have posted saying that my young active dog will never be off the lead and/or my free range hens will be shut in for ever more as I didn't want to put any effort into training  her. I wonder what kind of response I would have got from people then?! 

As to being irresponsible - if that's what you want to call someone for trying to train and overcome an issue than so be it; I personally have a very different definition of the word.
		
Click to expand...

If you want a 1oo%  trustworthy dog then forget it. No dog is 100% trustworthy. I have heard of dogs with previously superb and solid recalls blowing one and ending up being killed on the road because their idiot of a human insisted that they must absolutely be off lead while walking next to a road or near one.  




Clodagh said:



			Couldn't agree more, stick to your guns, these people whos animals never have freedom through lack of training are the ones in the wrong, not you. I agree with Alec's suggestion o going to see a spaniel man for some pointers.
		
Click to expand...

My dogs do enjoy freedom from the lead several times a week, but at least that freedom hasn't come from them being shocked, cracked with a whip or whatever. 



Dry Rot said:



			The answer to the OP's question (how to teach dog not to chase hens) is very simple. Aversion therapy.

The dog in JillA's story chased a cat because it did not fear the cat. It chased it around a corner when it turned into a tiger. The dog did not chase the tiger because it instinctively fears tigers. 

The dog chases hens because it is not afraid of hens. The clue is in the story above. The OP has to devise some means (preferably several) of convincing the dog that hens have become tigers. One of the first things I'd do is to get a dead hen and hang it on the electric fence. The aversion is self taught. That is the direction my logic would take.

Nothing to do with the owner. No commands or even his/her presence is necessary. Nothing to do with the social hierarchy. Nothing to do with instilling steadiness. Nothing to do with teaching "Leave". But all these are still essential elements of dog training and need to be taught. But to answer the original question, the psychology is different.

Ball games are excellent for instilling obedience. A thrown ball is very tempting and the game can encourage and teach a dog to chase. For that reason, it is a useful training tool. It can be used to teach a dog NOT to chase or stop chasing when told ('Sit", "Leave" or simply "Come Here"). I would never regard any dog of mine as trained until I could stop it, dead, when running flat out after a thrown ball. (And that can easily be taught with a check cord of known length that brings the dog to an abrupt halt at a defined point, synchronised with the command). I used to encourage my dogs to chase the swallows and butterflies flying over my fields simply as they were a temptation I could use to instill the 'Sit'. The stop (Sit, Down, Hup, whatever) is as vital in a trained dog as the brakes are on a car. The 'Come Here" is the steering.

Turning the requirement on it's head, it is sometimes necessary in dog training to convince a dog that the 'tiger' is in fact a pussy cat! Man work with protection dogs is one of them. The dog is not "beaten and tormented with a stick" as someone suggested on another thread, but quite the reverse -- it is encouraged to win. The decoy occasionally runs away, screams in pain, writhes on the ground, etc. Same thing when starting a young sheepdog. It is allowed to chase sheep that run away and do not pose a threat. It will definitely not be put in a position where an old ewe or a tup can dominate it or attack it. I can think of dozens of similar examples. So why not teach a dog to avoid hens simply by applying the same psychology, but in reverse? Not all training can be done with treats and in life not all learning is pain free. My grandmother taught me that when I thought it was fun to play with matches!
		
Click to expand...

Letting a dog run a certain distance then forcing the dog to come to an abrupt stop? I sodding well hope you have not tried that with a sighthound, a slenderly built Lurcher or some other breed/type with a delicate frame. Doing that sort of thing with them is a good way of damaging/breaking their necks and spines! Greyhounds (the second fastest land mammal) can reach their top speeds (40+ mph) in just a few seconds and if they come to a sudden stop (because of something around their necks) while going at those speeds then the pressure on their necks can be enormous. That's why countless Greyhound adoption groups and specialist vets tell people to NEVER attach a Grey to a flexi lead, tie out cable or long line! However, doing that to any breed isn't nice. 

'Training' through fear, pain and intimidation is nothing more than bullying and is one of the laziest ways of 'training'.


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## ester (22 January 2016)

Do you not think 'bullying' is both emotive and humanising? Given that by definition it only applies to humans.

At the end of the day it is just conditioning whether using positive reinforcement, negative punishment, positive punishment or negative reinforcement


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## Love_my_Lurcher (22 January 2016)

ester said:



			Do you not think 'bullying' is both emotive and humanising? Given that by definition it only applies to humans.

At the end of the day it is just conditioning whether using positive reinforcement, negative punishment, positive punishment or negative reinforcement
		
Click to expand...

Eh, no. The word 'bullying' does not apply exclusively to humans bullying other humans. Here is one definition of 'bully' from the Oxford Dictionary:


"noun (plural bullies)


A person who uses strength or influence to harm or intimidate those who are weaker:
 he is a ranting, domineering bully


More example sentences 


Synonyms


verb (bullies, bullying, bullied)
 [with object]Back to top &#58889; 


 Use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force them to do something:
 a local man was bullied into helping them"


I would classify a dog as a 'someone' and not a 'something' because dogs are not inanimate objects. That would also be the perfect definition for someone who uses fear and pain to 'train' a dog!


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## ester (22 January 2016)

whereas I would define someone as human as would most dictionaries for their requirements
'an unknown or unspecified person; some person'
Especially as most other definitions do use the term people and the term originated between people. 
collins 
'the intimidation of weaker people'
'a person who hurts, persecutes, or intimidates weaker people'

Your choice though, for me it isn't terribly accurate to the situation or the suggestions but that is probably the scientist in me wanting to stick the 'right' definitions input.


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## Dry Rot (22 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			If you want a 1oo%  trustworthy dog then forget it. No dog is 100% trustworthy. I have heard of dogs with previously superb and solid recalls blowing one and ending up being killed on the road because their idiot of a human insisted that they must absolutely be off lead while walking next to a road or near one.  




My dogs do enjoy freedom from the lead several times a week, but at least that freedom hasn't come from them being shocked, cracked with a whip or whatever. 



Letting a dog run a certain distance then forcing the dog to come to an abrupt stop? I sodding well hope you have not tried that with a sighthound, a slenderly built Lurcher or some other breed/type with a delicate frame. Doing that sort of thing with them is a good way of damaging/breaking their necks and spines! Greyhounds (the second fastest land mammal) can reach their top speeds (40+ mph) in just a few seconds and if they come to a sudden stop (because of something around their necks) while going at those speeds then the pressure on their necks can be enormous. That's why countless Greyhound adoption groups and specialist vets tell people to NEVER attach a Grey to a flexi lead, tie out cable or long line! However, doing that to any breed isn't nice. 

'Training' through fear, pain and intimidation is nothing more than bullying and is one of the laziest ways of 'training'.
		
Click to expand...

LML, you are absolutely right. My ways of training are cruel, barbaric, and bullying as witnessed by the video below which you might like to turn over to the RSPCA. If my dogs don't do what they are told, they get a good flogging with a piece of rusty barbed wire that I keep specially for training purposes.

https://youtu.be/pAtSGsYQNRw


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## Alec Swan (22 January 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			LML, you are absolutely right. My ways of training are cruel, barbaric, and bullying as witnessed by the video below which you might like to turn over to the RSPCA. .

https://youtu.be/pAtSGsYQNRw

Click to expand...

DR,  you're wasting your energies.  The fact that over a 50 year period you were considered _Internationally_ by those with opinions worth considering,  to be at the very top of your game,  that your peers respected you,  that young and old alike with an interest in the English Pointer constantly turned to you for your opinion and advice and that you made up probably more Field Trial Champions in the world of 'The Pointer' than anyone alive today,  means absolutely nothing to some.

When I see others contradict you and they can '_demonstrate_' their points,  then I'll listen to them,  but until then,  just stay as you are! :wink3:

Alec.


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## Dry Rot (22 January 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			DR,  you're wasting your energies.  The fact that over a 50 year period you were considered _Internationally_ by those with opinions worth considering,  to be at the very top of your game,  that your peers respected you,  that young and old alike with an interest in the English Pointer constantly turned to you for your opinion and advice and that you made up probably more Field Trial Champions in the world of 'The Pointer' than anyone alive today,  means absolutely nothing to some.

When I see others contradict you and they can '_demonstrate_' their points,  then I'll listen to them,  but until then,  just stay as you are! :wink3:

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

OK, OK, so how much was it you wanted to borrow? I'll get a cheque off in the morning!


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## Clodagh (22 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			Eh, no. The word 'bullying' does not apply exclusively to humans bullying other humans.
		
Click to expand...

So you prefer to only allow your dogs off lead a couple of times a week in a contained area as you prefer never to 'bully' them? Are they also allowed to counter surf/ jump up on people etc as training is bullying? Am intrigued!


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## Tobiano (22 January 2016)

I have read this thread with great interest - well done 3B with your pup's training, you seem to be doing extremely well.  Also very interesting and helpful to read the very expert advice from a number of people.

I am a 'fluffy bunny' type too but I actually don't understand the extreme reaction to use of electric collars.  Why are they worse than the 'tap from the schooling whip' or the shock from the electric fence?  Druid's example seems such a good one - the dog would have been killed, and instead now has a wonderful life for the 'price' of a couple of brief electric shocks.   I haven't used an electric collar but would certainly consider very limited use if it would save my dog's life.  (Or my chickens, if I had any!).


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## ester (22 January 2016)

Essentially I see it as giving the chicken defences it doesn't actually have, so the dog thinks chickens hurt, not OMG my owner is so mean to me.


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## Dry Rot (22 January 2016)

ester said:



			Essentially I see it as giving the chicken defences it doesn't actually have, so the dog thinks chickens hurt, not OMG my owner is so mean to me.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly! Aversion therapy. If you have ever accidentally put your hand on the hot ring of your cooker, you don't do it again. You don't blame the shop that sold it to you or the electricity company. You just make sure you don't do it again. It really isn't rocket science.

As for electric collars, I think I must have been the first person to import one into Scotland (if not the UK) over forty years ago and I had several models after that. They sound marvellous and you will never hear about the dogs that are spoilt using them. After shooting the first dog I ruined with one, I gave up using them and quickly found there were better ways of administering that "psychological shock". 

To work at all, the probes inside the collar have to be in tight contact with the skin. That isn't always possible. Anyway, a dog will notice anything unusual and alter it's behaviour. I had one dog that would not work with a collar on -- any collar -- because an e-collar had jammed. They are also electronic devices and anyone who uses a computer will know that electronics isn't 100% reliable. On this occasion, the collar jammed on the dog delivering a continuous shock and I was badly bitten trying to remove it! You won't know how your dog is going to react until you've shocked it -- it will increase agression in some and reduce others to a state of terror. Successful training relies on setting up a scenario where your dog can succeed. If anything goes wrong, events can take a different course and the result may be very different to what was intended. Many times, that training scene you have so carefully organised will go wrong, simply because we cannot know (scent, etc) what the dog is experiencing.

I took my best young dog to Orkney to introduce him to red grouse. Back in those days I was selling dogs for today's equivalent of tens of thousands of pounds. The only problem was that although there were plenty of grouse on the islands, there were also plenty of rabbits. I thought I would be clever and sicken the dog off rabbits so I fitted it with an electric collar. Things went well with the occassional short course after a rabbit but he didn't catch one, so I was waiting for the perfect opportunity to apply the shock. Then the dog came onto point and I was sure it was a rabbit. So I pressed the button. Nothing! Either the probes were not in contact with the dog's neck, the batteries were flat, the circuitry was faulty, etc. but the point is the collar delivered no shock. 

As we walked forward, a big pack of grose rose to my dog's point and my companion managed to get a right and a left. I went forward, picked up a bird, and took it back to my dog and showed it to him. He got the message. Here was the end result to all his hard work and my training. He turned out the best dog I have ever owned. Now, how good would he have been if he had got a shock, not for pointing rabbits but for pointing grouse?

The best training tool is a length of baler twine, the stuff they tie up small bales with. It costs nothing, can be rolled up and put in your pocket, or dragged by the dog without him even noticing. It is easy ti pick up the end and give a tweak to convince the dog that your reach extends far further than your arm. With moderate skill, you dog may never realise that your limits are 12 - 15 metres and that dog that will Sit or Drop instantly at 20 paces will now do so at 200 metres -- and more.

Sorry, but that is my last post on this subject. There are plenty of books in your local library. Legislation is enacted only after wide spread consultations with known experts. They do not make new laws lightly. Electric collars are banned in Wales and soon will be in Sotland. They are banned (except by special permission) by the armed forces, the police, prison service, etc. as they should be. Professional trainers worthy of the name don't need them and don't use them. There are better methods.


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## ester (22 January 2016)

I do think dogs get to know when and when not they have collar on, so regardless of timing I don't think they are a great tool in anyone's hands/the solution.


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## druid (22 January 2016)

ester said:



			I do think dogs get to know when and when not they have collar on, so regardless of timing I don't think they are a great tool in anyone's hands/the solution.
		
Click to expand...


Only if it wears it a lot - Lurcher wore it for a week turned off before it getting used, not long enough to realise the collar was what gave him the shock. 

I'd rather not use them but it was a last resort for him.


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## ester (22 January 2016)

Ah yes, good point. I guess I got used to the old dog being very wise to that with the freedom fence if he didn't have the collar on  He was 15 though so knew how to work life by then and still chasing after girls :rolleyes3:. He did decide to stay at home in his 16th year .


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## Love_my_Lurcher (23 January 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			LML, you are absolutely right. My ways of training are cruel, barbaric, and bullying as witnessed by the video below which you might like to turn over to the RSPCA. If my dogs don't do what they are told, they get a good flogging with a piece of rusty barbed wire that I keep specially for training purposes.

https://youtu.be/pAtSGsYQNRw

Click to expand...

So no videos of you 'training' those recalls and lay downs then? 



Alec Swan said:



			DR,  you're wasting your energies.  The fact that over a 50 year period you were considered _Internationally_ by those with opinions worth considering,  to be at the very top of your game,  that your peers respected you,  that young and old alike with an interest in the English Pointer constantly turned to you for your opinion and advice and that you made up probably more Field Trial Champions in the world of 'The Pointer' than anyone alive today,  means absolutely nothing to some.

When I see others contradict you and they can '_demonstrate_' their points,  then I'll listen to them,  but until then,  just stay as you are! :wink3:

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

All that 'fame' means nothing to me. The fact remains that Dry Rot has admitted to using sickening 'training' methods so I couldn't give a stuff if they are 'respected' by their peers. 



Clodagh said:



			So you prefer to only allow your dogs off lead a couple of times a week in a contained area as you prefer never to 'bully' them? Are they also allowed to counter surf/ jump up on people etc as training is bullying? Am intrigued!
		
Click to expand...

The fields they get let off in are either not enclosed or only partially enclosed. One is a huge sports field, another is a large field next to a quiet part of an industrial estate (although there is no access to any of the surrounding roads from the field) and the other is part of an old dissused village hospital. There is also a circular walk that encompasses another large field. Those are their usual places and there are other places (which are further away) that they get taken to a couple of times a month for a good run. They don't get let off just a couple of time a week. They get let off  3-4 times a week! Besides, it doesn't matter if a dog can 'only' get let off in a smaller enclosed field. It's what you do with your dog that matters. There are plenty of things that can make their time in a smaller area lots of fun. You can take agility equipment or lots of different toys or you can do scent work. That at least would be so much better than not letting them off lead at all. Oh and they don't 'counter surf' or jump up at people. They have never done those things anyway. They have been taught good manners through positive training and not being bullied into submission. 

Also, to a lot of other people, their last resort is to hire a field or equestrian arena so their dogs can be let off lead. They wouldn't even cater to the idea of their last resort being a shock collar! 




Tobiano said:



			I have read this thread with great interest - well done 3B with your pup's training, you seem to be doing extremely well.  Also very interesting and helpful to read the very expert advice from a number of people.

I am a 'fluffy bunny' type too but I actually don't understand the extreme reaction to use of electric collars.  Why are they worse than the 'tap from the schooling whip' or the shock from the electric fence?  Druid's example seems such a good one - the dog would have been killed, and instead now has a wonderful life for the 'price' of a couple of brief electric shocks.   I haven't used an electric collar but would certainly consider very limited use if it would save my dog's life.  (Or my chickens, if I had any!).
		
Click to expand...

There is an extreme reaction because it is ABUSE! Deliberately shocking any living being is abuse! I have heard of several cases of parents using them on their kids and on each of those occasions they were done for child abuse! Shock collars are thankfully banned in a number of countries and it looks like mine (Scotland) is set to outlaw them too. The reason they are banned is because they are cruel and inflict pain.  Deliberately shocking your dog is very much cruelty in my eyes and I would quite happily see anyone (even admitting to using them on the internet) prosecuted for cruelty. In fact I have reported several  members of forums I belong to for partaking in illegal and cruel activities (with at least one resulting in police action). Yes it's something I feel strongly about. Anytime I look into my dogs eyes, anytime I play with them, heck anytime I look at them, I think how wonderful they are. It is truly horrible to think of dogs like them being mistreated or being in the hands of people who would think nothing of shocking them and hitting them with whips! 

Also, that dog's 'wonderful' life has come from fear. The whole point of using shock collars is to create pain and thus creating a fear of doing something wrong. How that can be classed as 'training' I will never know!


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## Alec Swan (23 January 2016)

L_m_L,  are you able to demonstrate your abilities?  Have you ever competed against your peers or even entered any form of performance test?  To 'rubbish' the opinions of those who have demonstrated their abilities is both insulting and unworthy of consideration.  In short,  you're talking complete and utter nonsense.  Sorry,  but that's a fact and one which will be shared by others.  I'd recommend that you join the focused dog training forum sites and offer your views.  You may come to a better understanding of the mind and the thought processes of a dog and also of the trainer.

It genuinely isn't my intention to be rude,  but if you fail to understand how to achieve a dog's respect and attention,  then you're due a measure of criticism.

Alec.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (23 January 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			L_m_L,  are you able to demonstrate your abilities?  Have you ever competed against your peers or even entered any form of performance test?  To 'rubbish' the opinions of those who have demonstrated their abilities is both insulting and unworthy of consideration.  In short,  you're talking complete and utter nonsense.  Sorry,  but that's a fact and one which will be shared by others.  I'd recommend that you join the focused dog training forum sites and offer your views.  You may come to a better understanding of the mind and the thought processes of a dog and also of the trainer.

It genuinely isn't my intention to be rude,  but if you fail to understand how to achieve a dog's respect and attention,  then you're due a measure of criticism.

Alec.
		
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Don't you dare say I am talking nonsense and yes you are being rude! People like you continue to sicken me. Using punitive and aversive methods on dogs can be extremely harmful. Using those types of methods will only suppress behaviour through fear, pain and intimidation. Those behaviours (and they have done) can arise at any time and in some cases can be worse than before. There are quite a lot of dogs that appeared on Cesar Millan's shows that are now dead (because they went onto bite and attack people), who went back to their original adopters or who went to live on sanctuaries because their behaviours did not improve. He has also gotten people bitten through his use of shock collars. One time was when he shocked a cat reactive GSD and the dog redirected and bit the woman that had him. Not only do shock collars inflict pain, they can leave burn marks, cause heart problems or aggravate underlying heart problems, make dogs depressed and make them associate shocks with things like passers by (including children) thus creating fearfulness or fear aggression towards those things. 'Freedom fences' routinely fail and dogs can still get past the boundary line, they will NOT keep out unwanted dogs that might want to attack yours, nasty people who want to steal or harm your dog, nor will they keep predators out. Those things have been confirmed by vets and behaviourists who have compared the results of aversive and punitive 'trained' dogs and positively trained dogs. Oh and like I said, I have zero time for someone who has admitted to abusing their dogs in order to achieve 'results'.


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## Clodagh (23 January 2016)

DR said he is anti shock collars - so what has he done to upset you? I don't think Alec condones them either so am not sure why you are so anti their training. You don't know what they do.

I am glad to hear your dogs get to run around but can you do so near livestock or chickens? What happens if they see a cat in their free time?


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## ester (23 January 2016)

Quite and I don't think anyone has suggested using Cesar's techniques either!??


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## twiggy2 (23 January 2016)

druid said:



			Only if it wears it a lot - Lurcher wore it for a week turned off before it getting used, not long enough to realise the collar was what gave him the shock. 

I'd rather not use them but it was a last resort for him.
		
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I have to disagree on this, it is not if the dog wears it a lot it is if the dog only wears it when it will be used, my lurcher wore hers for moths before the moment presented itself with perfect timing, it is recommended that they wear it for at least 4 weeks with no use before it is used, if the collar is used more than once it is also suggested that it be worn with no use for at least a few days after. She had got used to wearing the collar and box just like a normal collar, it was the cat that stung just before she touched it and nothing to do with what she was wearing round her neck, I do think that the collars have to be used with real caution and the person operating it has to has perfect timing and the patience to wait till the perfect moment arises, for me I really did not want to resort to using one hence her wearing it for so long before use, she was however hunting the semi feral cats on the yard I was working at, I worked there for 4 hours each morning and there were up to 14 dogs at the yard at any given time, she loved to play but if she got the sent (or sight) of a cat she was hunting-one well timed shock and after that she would show the same level of interest as any other dog but she did not want to touch the cats anymore and her 'drive' was vastly reduced.
For me it worked (it cost me a lot of money though) but I have never used it on another dog or lent it out-the really need to be used with caution, they can do so much harm and they are not a quick fixed. My biggest concern was that my dog would bolt but it was on a fairly mild setting (yes I did use it on myself to set it) and I used it in a secure area-she came back to me when it was used and yes she yelped but when she got a shock of the electric fence 2 yrs later she bolted so the shock had a lesser response but enough to stop the issue.


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## twiggy2 (23 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			Don't you dare say I am talking nonsense and yes you are being rude! People like you continue to sicken me. Using punitive and aversive methods on dogs can be extremely harmful. Using those types of methods will only suppress behaviour through fear, pain and intimidation. Those behaviours (and they have done) can arise at any time and in some cases can be worse than before. There are quite a lot of dogs that appeared on Cesar Millan's shows that are now dead (because they went onto bite and attack people), who went back to their original adopters or who went to live on sanctuaries because their behaviours did not improve. He has also gotten people bitten through his use of shock collars. One time was when he shocked a cat reactive GSD and the dog redirected and bit the woman that had him. Not only do shock collars inflict pain, they can leave burn marks, cause heart problems or aggravate underlying heart problems, make dogs depressed and make them associate shocks with things like passers by (including children) thus creating fearfulness or fear aggression towards those things.
		
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All of these things can happen yes, no-one can deny that but a dog can be mentally scarred i many ways if the handler/trainer is not mindful of the dogs temperament/mental state/drive, the surrounding location the level of any training/external influence/distractions at the time-a good trainer is one who can assess the dog/their own abilities and limits as a trainer and treat every situation different and change their methods to each situation that arises.
Many dogs are spoilt by over treating (I use positive training methods with all my dogs) and not enough stimulation but the vast majority are not.
shock collars have a place but it is for me very very very limited ad very much only in the right hands


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## Alec Swan (23 January 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			..

It genuinely isn't my intention to be rude,  but if you fail to understand how to achieve a dog's respect and attention,  then you're due a measure of criticism.

Alec.
		
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Love_my_Lurcher said:



			Don't you dare say I am talking nonsense and yes you are being rude! .. .
		
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Being rude wasn't my intention,  but sadly I don't accept instructions.  If you 'talk nonsense' then it's likely to be pointed out to you.  Your accusations of abuse are purely a subjective matter,  and also of your opinion.  My dogs adore me,  as I do them,  a concept which I accept that you will struggle with.

Alec.

Ets,  and to,  yet again,  underline that fact that I have never and would never use an electric collar,  just for those who may be in doubt!


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## Dry Rot (23 January 2016)

The problem with a dog wearing a shock collar for any length of time (as I discovered before I learnt there were better training tools) is that any metal object in close contact with the skin for any length of time will set up an irritation. It is the body attempting to reject a foreign object. It is so long since I've used one of these collars that I'd forgotten about this side effect.

It seems to me that natural selection would not have favoured pain if it did not have a useful function in the learning process. I wonder how animals would manage if they never felt pain?

These anecdotal theories on training that are being quoted would be more convincing if the poster could quote scientific references. Not much was taught about animal behaviour when I was in vet collage and I am not aware that dog training is discussed at college at all these days. I had a vet at my door not so long ago asking my advice on a dog training problem. He'd been trying to get his dog to point for two years and hadn't managed to teach it to Sit (flat down) either.

We managed to put solid foundations for both of these into the dog within about twenty minutes. Successful dog training (or any training come to that) is often about knowing which buttons* to press and when. Get it right and results can be very dramatic indeed. How long does it take for a pup to learn to chase a hen? That may not be what we want, but the dog is learning, and therefore inadvertently 'being trained' regardless. Untraining will take longer!

*Edited to say that that is a metaphorical button and not one on a shock collar transmitter!


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## Leo Walker (23 January 2016)

EQUIDAE said:



			But one that does chase, continuing to do this is going to make the situation worse not better. Same goes with squeaky toys - absolute no go with a dog that kills. As for permission to chase everything else - they don't know the difference.
		
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planete said:



			On the other hand, if you have a high prey drive dog, it is pretty useless trying to kiil off the prey drive.  If you do not want the dog to do what he was bred for you have to redirect his hunting instinct towards other things like balls and toys.  By teaching him to retrieve correctly, with self-control, by teaching to give his all at flyball or by motivating him to hurl himself around an agility course with the help of squeaky toys to start with you can give him a satisfying life.  Not quite sure I agree with your reasoning there but I am willing to accept it may be true for some dogs, though not for mine as I have always tried to work with their instinct and not against it.
		
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EQUIDAE said:



			Yet she is killing chickens so it is obviously not working. You can't have it both ways unfortunately. You need to shut the dog or chickens away if you are not going to address the chase behaviour - she needs to learn that chase is unacceptable, until the point you can call her off - and it sounds like you are a long way from that point.

ETA - I have lurchers so I have a decent amount of experience with dogs with a high prey drive. They don't play fetch, they don't have squeaky toys, they don't kill my chickens (or cats). They do have scent targeted play, they get off lead speed play, but never anything that would start they prey drive - once they learn to chase and kill you have already lost your battle. Much better not to put them in that position in the first place.
		
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Its not the case for my working bred, prey drive through the roof whippety lurcher. He would have made someone a first class worker, but things didnt pan out that way and hes a spoilt pet. 

He lure races, well did we havent been for ages, but he did every week for a good 6 months and was not only exceptional at it, he loved it to the point he would get so excited watching the others race he nearly had me off my feet a couple of times as they passed the finish line as he wanted to join in with killing the lure. He also has loads of toys, mainly fluffy teddies that he kills and disembowels with incredible passion. 

He also loves chasing and retrieving. We've worked on it loads, to the point he will retrieve out of water, by jumping into the lake etc, swimming out and fetching his toy back. Not bad for a dog that wont even go for a walk in the rain :lol: I am under no illusion that he enjoys retrieving. He doesnt. He retrieves so that he can chase it when its thrown again. We also did a LOT of firt pole work with him and nothing turns on prey drive like flirt pole work!

Not only does he live with a cat, who is his best friend in the world, but when we are out in the woods etc, and he puts rabbits up, he chases them, catches them, rolls them over and lets them go so he can chase them again. The reason he does this, is because when he was a small puppy he learnt a very unpleasant lesson about chasing cats. My big cat gave him what for twice, never had to do it again!

Would he be ok with chickens? Would he hell! He wouldnt kill them but he would chase them incessantly, if I let him. I wouldnt. He knows full well the difference between playing violently with a toy, chasing a ball and chasing and killing or hurting the cat, or even a wild rabbit. 

I'm not so full on with the flirt pole and racing stuff now, because hes 4 and doesnt need the same intense input he did as a young dog and we've found other ways to manage him

I'm not activating his prey drive, thats always there! I'm just redirecting it into a way that suits me, him and his prey drive 

Conversely, my other lurcher wouldn't chase a rabbit if it jumped up and boxed her on the nose while shouting "nah, nah, nah, catch me if you can" :lol:


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## Love_my_Lurcher (27 January 2016)

Clodagh said:



			DR said he is anti shock collars - so what has he done to upset you? I don't think Alec condones them either so am not sure why you are so anti their training. You don't know what they do.

I am glad to hear your dogs get to run around but can you do so near livestock or chickens? What happens if they see a cat in their free time?
		
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These are the reasons why I have issues with Dry Rot:

"One of the first things I'd do is to get a dead hen and hang it on the electric fence. The aversion is self taught. That is the direction my logic would take."

And:

"I would never regard any dog of mine as trained until I could stop it, dead, when running flat out after a thrown ball. (And that can easily be taught with a check cord of known length that brings the dog to an abrupt halt at a defined point, synchronised with the command)." 

Both those things cause a dog to experience pain and are deliberately inflicted. Not to mention the fact that intentionally making a dog come to a sudden stop while travelling at speed is downright dangerous and could easily result in neck and spinal injuries. DR might be against shock collars, but still advocates the shocking and jerking about of a dog. If that member was filmed doing those things to a dog on the street then it's likely that they would get prosecuted for cruelty. Just like that guy who was recently filmed hitting his AmBull on the street. So to say I am revolted by this member is an understatement! 

As for Alec Swan. I have read more than enough of his posts to know he is someone I wouldn't want to know in the non virtual world. For one thing he doesn't seem to think that a man violently kicking a dog in the ribs is anything to worry about.

My dogs have never encountered chickens and have only seen sheep in the distance (no reaction). The circular walk we do sometimes has cattle in the field it encompasses. They have been off lead and seen them close up. No reaction. There was a time when I had them at a friend's house (who stays in the country) and I was playing with them out the back. I threw the ball on one occasion and it bounced over the fence. There were a couple of Shetland ponies in it. Brochan jumped the fence to get the ball (which was only about a metre high) and the ponies were only a few metres away from him. He just grabbed the ball and jumped back over the fence. He never batted an eye at the ponies. So I would say that they wouldn't chase livestock. As for cats. They only get let off in areas where the chances of seeing a cat are very, very slim. They are practically non existent in fact.  

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/implications-of-punishment.php

http://www.coape.org/blog.php?id=22&start2=0&hash=7ace6c8ed9fe30222353a0170353618431be3768386

http://eileenanddogs.com/shock-collar-info/

http://dogmantics.com/is-it-harmful-to-attach-a-leash-to-your-dogs-neck-2/




ester said:



			Quite and I don't think anyone has suggested using Cesar's techniques either!??
		
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Oh, but they are. CM routinely shocks and yanks dogs about.


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## ester (27 January 2016)

Right so that makes it a 'Cesar technique' does it?! and therefore his failings with dogs are directly applicable to what people are suggesting might work with the OPs dogs? I think that is quite a loose connection myself given that he preaches some quite specific things very few of which I have seen mentioned here. Both Dryrot and alec have said they are against shocking... but you don't seem to have grasped that point.


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## EQUIDAE (27 January 2016)

LmL - be wary of allowing your dogs to jump fences into adjoining fields. Thats likely to get your dog shot  that would be a shame for such a perfect dog


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## MotherOfChickens (27 January 2016)

EQUIDAE said:



			LmL - be wary of allowing your dogs to jump fences into adjoining fields. Thats likely to get your dog shot  that would be a shame for such a perfect dog
		
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A while ago I had a cocker spaniel jump into my field and killed two very nice examples of two rare breed chickens. Chickens that were the culmination of four years of breeding after collecting stock from all over the country.  I was not impressed. They said their dog had never encountered chickens before as well-if it had stayed where it was meant to be or been on a lead, it wouldnt have done that day! And, as the neighbouring farm's collie found out when he jumped in with my horses, some horses don't appreciate strange dogs


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## Love_my_Lurcher (27 January 2016)

ester said:



			Right so that makes it a 'Cesar technique' does it?! and therefore his failings with dogs are directly applicable to what people are suggesting might work with the OPs dogs? I think that is quite a loose connection myself given that he preaches some quite specific things very few of which I have seen mentioned here. Both Dryrot and alec have said they are against shocking... but you don't seem to have grasped that point.
		
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And you don't seem to have read DR's post properly. He *clearly* recommended the use of an electric fence to *shock* a dog and openly admitted to causing his dogs to come to a *violent* and sudden stop at the end of a check cord!!!!



EQUIDAE said:



			LmL - be wary of allowing your dogs to jump fences into adjoining fields. Thats likely to get your dog shot  that would be a shame for such a perfect dog
		
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Well I actually know the person who owns the field and it was a neighbour of my friend. I happen to know that she does NOT own a gun and is not a farmer. Plus there is the fact that the ponies never bothered about Brochan either. They might also have been a few metres away, but not close enough to be in striking range.  If I thought there was any chance of trouble I would have intervened and not allowed him to jump the fence. 



MotherOfChickens said:



			A while ago I had a cocker spaniel jump into my field and killed two very nice examples of two rare breed chickens. Chickens that were the culmination of four years of breeding after collecting stock from all over the country.  I was not impressed. They said their dog had never encountered chickens before as well-if it had stayed where it was meant to be or been on a lead, it wouldnt have done that day! And, as the neighbouring farm's collie found out when he jumped in with my horses, some horses don't appreciate strange dogs 

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I was playing with my dogs in my friend's garden. They cannot run after a ball while attached to a lead and there was no reason whatsoever for me to believe that anything would have happened when he jumped the fence. He was over, grabbed the ball and came back again in less than a minute! Perhaps the reason why my dogs come back to me as readily is because they associate coming back with something really pleasant like a tasty treat or playtime. They have nothing to fear from me!


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## ester (27 January 2016)

I haven't seen Cesar do either of those things. Have you?

I have only seen him use shock collars, very occasionally which clearly aren't the same. Never seen him bring a dog to an abrupt halt after a ball. 
That is my point really, you are extrapolating!


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## Slightlyconfused (27 January 2016)

My collie won't go into sheep.feilds, one he has always been afraid of sheep (yes I know he is werid ) so that's one reason but another was he started to chase a hare, I told him to drop he didn't listen, one of the only times, and he got a massive shock off the sheep fencing. He has never gone near the fences again. Didn't do him any harm.

Neither did letting one of my rabbits out to attack the collies when they tried to be too playful with our house rabbit. This rabbit was an outdoor rabbit for a reason and ten minutes with him they now leave the others alone.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (27 January 2016)

ester said:



			I haven't seen Cesar do either of those things. Have you?

I have only seen him use shock collars, very occasionally which clearly aren't the same. Never seen him bring a dog to an abrupt halt after a ball. 
That is my point really, you are extrapolating!
		
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That is nonsense! He frequently shocks dogs and yanks them about (usually with a slip lead inserted in between their necks and ears). Not only that, but he has strung them up on quite a few occasions too. Two of the dogs he did that to didn't stay with their families for long after he did that to them! How many episodes of his shows have you watched? 

Oh and an electric shock is an electric shock regardless of what type of device it is emitted from!


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## Love_my_Lurcher (27 January 2016)

Slightlyconfused said:



			My collie won't go into sheep.feilds, one he has always been afraid of sheep (yes I know he is werid ) so that's one reason but another was he started to chase a hare, I told him to drop he didn't listen, one of the only times, and he got a massive shock off the sheep fencing. He has never gone near the fences again. Didn't do him any harm.

Neither did letting one of my rabbits out to attack the collies when they tried to be too playful with our house rabbit. This rabbit was an outdoor rabbit for a reason and ten minutes with him they now leave the others alone.
		
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So you said he got a massive shock. but then said it didn't do him any harm? How did you know he got a massive shock? Did he yelp, whine or show any other obvious sign that he received a massive shock? If he did, then you cannot say it didn't do him any harm.


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## ester (27 January 2016)

Shock collars activated by a human are a world away from a chicken on a fence, and well if you can't see that then there isn't much I can do to demonstrate otherwise as I am not a) about to start drawing diagrams, b) go into the specifics as it was apparent earlier in the thread that you weren't keen to discuss things in an accurate manner with regards to actually how behaviours are influenced.

Yanking about isn't stopping them running after a ball after a command, it is just yanking them about.

As I said, stop extrapolating you are trying to suggest that anyone following Dryrots or Alec's suggestions will result in a dog they have to get rid off and sorry but no, that is just rubbish quite frankly. If I generated such associations in my job I'd need a new one pretty quickly!


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## ester (27 January 2016)

I tested the horse's fence the other day as someone was removing the posts from the top using their teeth... 

It didn't do me any harm, I didn't yelp, or experience pain just a nerve response that caused me to withdraw my hand...


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## Slightlyconfused (27 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			So you said he got a massive shock. but then said it didn't do him any harm? How did you know he got a massive shock? Did he yelp, whine or show any other obvious sign that he received a massive shock? If he did, then you cannot say it didn't do him any harm.
		
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He let out a yelp, yes it probably hurt just like I've gotten a shock off the horses fencing before and my horses have gotten shocks off when trying to fight with a horse the other side. 
Better electric fencing then post and rail which can do alot worse.

 He learnt to respect boundaries and fence lines. He now won't go into the feilds under fences without looking at me for the okay first.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (27 January 2016)

ester said:



			Shock collars activated by a human are a world away from a chicken on a fence, and well if you can't see that then there isn't much I can do to demonstrate otherwise as I am not a) about to start drawing diagrams, b) go into the specifics as it was apparent earlier in the thread that you weren't keen to discuss things in an accurate manner with regards to actually how behaviours are influenced.

Yanking about isn't stopping them running after a ball after a command, it is just yanking them about.

As I said, stop extrapolating you are trying to suggest that anyone following Dryrots or Alec's suggestions will result in a dog they have to get rid off and sorry but no, that is just rubbish quite frankly. If I generated such associations in my job I'd need a new one pretty quickly!
		
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It was a chicken attached to an *electric* fence! What part of that did you miss? 

There is also an abundance of veterinary evidence to prove that a dog coming to a sudden stop (especially while running) at the end of any type of lead does do damage! 

And nowhere did I state that a dog 'trained' using aversive and punitive methods would have to be 'gotten rid of'! You are now putting words in my mouth! What I did say is that such methods are dangerous. They create fear and pain. Those things can and have made dogs behaviour worse. There are plenty of studies which prove that!


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## MotherOfChickens (27 January 2016)

ester said:



			It didn't do me any harm, I didn't yelp, or experience pain just a nerve response that caused me to withdraw my hand...
		
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it makes me swear. although tbh it doesnt take much.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (27 January 2016)

Slightlyconfused said:



			He let out a yelp, yes it probably hurt just like I've gotten a shock off the horses fencing before and my horses have gotten shocks off when trying to fight with a horse the other side. 
Better electric fencing then post and rail which can do alot worse.

 He learnt to respect boundaries and fence lines. He now won't go into the feilds under fences without looking at me for the okay first.
		
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So it did harm him then! And no, an electric fence (either taped or invisible) is a lot worse. If a dog does manage to get out of an electric fence (perhaps while going after a cat or whatever with their adrenaline up) then the chance of them returning to the property are slimmer because they would fear the pain of a shock. Like I said before, invisible electric fences will NOT stop people getting onto your property to steal your dog or to harm them. They will NOT stop predators (depending on what country you are in) or other dogs getting in and attacking your dog. A large physical fence WOULD deter some would be thieves and attackers! Plus a larger physical fence would go a lot further at keeping predators and other dogs out. Then there is the fact that a dog running up to the boundary to greet people and getting shocked in the process could easily make them come to associate the shock with those people (thus creating fear aggression).  Again there have been studies that prove the latter.


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## EQUIDAE (27 January 2016)

Rather an electric fence than a bullet


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## Love_my_Lurcher (27 January 2016)

EQUIDAE said:



			Rather an electric fence than a bullet
		
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But you do NOT need an electric fence when you can have a proper physical fence! If you happen to live in an area where physical fences are forbidden (some housing associations are quite strict about that) then perhaps you shouldn't get a dog in the first place!


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## Slightlyconfused (27 January 2016)

I don't have freedom fences or what ever they are. I just walk my dogs where I keep my horses. They have sheep in the winter. And I actually don't care that he is slightly fearful of an electric fence, better that than him getting shot in a farmers sheep.feild.

Where has anyone said electric fences stop burglary or stealing dogs? They don't. They are used for livestock control......Though sheep are too bone headed to remember that it shocks them  

I would suggest you spend some time on a working farm then you might have a different view on country life. 

Also I do not want my dogs running up to greet people. Especially when they are as scarey looking as one of mine.


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## Slightlyconfused (27 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			But you do NOT need an electric fence when you can have a proper physical fence! If you happen to live in an area where physical fences are forbidden (some housing associations are quite strict about that) then perhaps you shouldn't get a dog in the first place!
		
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All the houses i know have solid fences, im talking about farmers livestock fences. With much you rotate grazing eletric fencing is the only option.


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## twiggy2 (27 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			lead inserted in between their necks and ears
		
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that is the correct place for a collar or slip lead, especially on lurchers and bull breeds as their lower neck is often wider than their heads meaning a collar that sits lower down can often be backed out of resulting in a loose dog


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## ester (27 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			It was a chicken attached to an *electric* fence! What part of that did you miss? 

There is also an abundance of veterinary evidence to prove that a dog coming to a sudden stop (especially while running) at the end of any type of lead does do damage! 

And nowhere did I state that a dog 'trained' using aversive and punitive methods would have to be 'gotten rid of'! You are now putting words in my mouth! What I did say is that such methods are dangerous. They create fear and pain. Those things can and have made dogs behaviour worse. There are plenty of studies which prove that!
		
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You were making a point that some of the dogs cesar has dealt with, in his way, had had to be rehomed due to their subsequent behaviour. 
By mentioning him at all you were somehow (though am still not sure quite how!) suggesting that the methods suggested on here were comparable and would therefore result in a worse behaviour to the point where people rehome their dogs. If not, why mention him at all, I don't really think he has brought anything to that discussion. 

No need for the bold :rolleyes3: I am aware that the chicken was attached to an electric fence, a chicken, not a collar, no human involved just a chicken hanging out. I can see the similarities but I see a whole lot more differences! 

I do remember him using the collar on Daddy with a caged snake, better an electric shock than a snake bite or no?
I'd think better an electric shock than dealing with many spurred roosters tbh too.


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## ester (27 January 2016)

Oh and re if they go through the fence dogs not coming back, IME they stand the other side and bark for assistance!

Because the yard is open into the fields, for the horses obviously the dogs could if they really wanted to access the road through the hedges, the fence stops them doing this. Obviously one should fence the whole field with chicken wire but . Or just buy a bigger dog .


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## Love_my_Lurcher (27 January 2016)

Slightlyconfused said:



			I don't have freedom fences or what ever they are. I just walk my dogs where I keep my horses. They have sheep in the winter. And I actually don't care that he is slightly fearful of an electric fence, better that than him getting shot in a farmers sheep.feild.

Where has anyone said electric fences stop burglary or stealing dogs? They don't. They are used for livestock control......Though sheep are too bone headed to remember that it shocks them  

I would suggest you spend some time on a working farm then you might have a different view on country life. 

Also I do not want my dogs running up to greet people. Especially when they are as scarey looking as one of mine.
		
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I used the stealing of and attacking of dogs as examples as to why electronic fencing for dogs isn't safe. And ester has admitted to using a 'freedom fence'. They are also known as invisible fences or to use the most appropriate term electric fences. They rely on a dog receiving a shock (via a collar) to keep them within a certain area. However, there have been plenty of cases of those types of fences failing and actually causing dogs to become aggressive. 



twiggy2 said:



			that is the correct place for a collar or slip lead, especially on lurchers and bull breeds as their lower neck is often wider than their heads meaning a collar that sits lower down can often be backed out of resulting in a loose dog
		
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There are such things as martingale and Greyhound collars. They are more humane than slip leads.



ester said:



			You were making a point that some of the dogs cesar has dealt with, in his way, had had to be rehomed due to their subsequent behaviour. 
By mentioning him at all you were somehow (though am still not sure quite how!) suggesting that the methods suggested on here were comparable and would therefore result in a worse behaviour to the point where people rehome their dogs. If not, why mention him at all, I don't really think he has brought anything to that discussion. 

No need for the bold :rolleyes3: I am aware that the chicken was attached to an electric fence, a chicken, not a collar, no human involved just a chicken hanging out. I can see the similarities but I see a whole lot more differences! 

I do remember him using the collar on Daddy with a caged snake, better an electric shock than a snake bite or no?
I'd think better an electric shock than dealing with many spurred roosters tbh too.
		
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Of course a human was involved! How utterly ridiculous to suggest otherwise! A dead chicken doesn't just attach itself to an electric fence now does it?? 

As for me mentioning CM. I used him as an example to highlight that such methods are dangerous and can result in an even more screwed up dog. Not all the dogs he failed were rehomed. There were some that only improved after a positive trainer was brought in and there was one dog who ended up having his teeth filed down. Like I said he has shocked dogs on numerous occasions and off the top of my head I can think of a couple of times when he even tried to conceal the fact that he was using a shock collar (he did this by trying to hide them under bandanas). An alternative to shocking Daddy would have been not to let him off lead in areas where snakes were present!


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## Love_my_Lurcher (27 January 2016)

ester said:



			Oh and re if they go through the fence dogs not coming back, IME they stand the other side and bark for assistance!

Because the yard is open into the fields, for the horses obviously the dogs could if they really wanted to access the road through the hedges, the fence stops them doing this. Obviously one should fence the whole field with chicken wire but . Or just buy a bigger dog .
		
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Or not let the dog wander freely in the first place!


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## EQUIDAE (27 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			But you do NOT need an electric fence when you can have a proper physical fence! If you happen to live in an area where physical fences are forbidden (some housing associations are quite strict about that) then perhaps you shouldn't get a dog in the first place!
		
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Could I just ask why you suggest I don't get a dog? I currently have 4 dogs (and countless fostered rescues over the years). I would _NEVER_ do anything as irresponsible as letting my dog jump stock fencing like you are claiming you do (due to your dog being stock safe). There is the risk of the collar getting stuck and strangulation, the risk of degloving of the skin, the risk of your dog getting shot. What you are doing with your own dog is highly irresponsible - you dog does not know the difference between fences are safe/permissible to jump and ones that aren't. One day the dog will jump a fence you don't want him to jump...

_YOU_ are the one saying your dog is jumping fences - because you let him. Highly irresponsible! Remember this thread when you fall off your mighty high horse when someone shoots your dog.


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## Dobiegirl (27 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			I used the stealing of and attacking of dogs as examples as to why electronic fencing for dogs isn't safe. And ester has admitted to using a 'freedom fence'. They are also known as invisible fences or to use the most appropriate term electric fences. They rely on a dog receiving a shock (via a collar) to keep them within a certain area. However, there have been plenty of cases of those types of fences failing and actually causing dogs to become aggressive. 



There are such things as martingale and Greyhound collars. They are more humane than slip leads.





As for me mentioning CM. I used him as an example to highlight that such methods are dangerous and can result in an even more screwed up dog. Not all the dogs he failed were rehomed. There were some that only improved after a positive trainer was brought in and there was one dog who ended up having his teeth filed down. Like I said he has shocked dogs on numerous occasions and off the top of my head I can think of a couple of times when he even tried to conceal the fact that he was using a shock collar (he did this by trying to hide them under bandanas). An alternative to shocking Daddy would have been not to let him off lead in areas where snakes were present!
		
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Of course we all know snakes are good at respecting boundaries
.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (27 January 2016)

EQUIDAE said:



			Could I just ask why you suggest I don't get a dog? I currently have 4 dogs (and countless fostered rescues over the years). I would _NEVER_ do anything as irresponsible as letting my dog jump stock fencing like you are claiming you do (due to your dog being stock safe). There is the risk of the collar getting stuck and strangulation, the risk of degloving of the skin, the risk of your dog getting shot. What you are doing with your own dog is highly irresponsible - you dog does not know the difference between fences are safe/permissible to jump and ones that aren't. One day the dog will jump a fence you don't want him to jump...

_YOU_ are the one saying your dog is jumping fences - because you let him. Highly irresponsible! Remember this thread when you fall off your mighty high horse when someone shoots your dog.
		
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I KNEW there was NO chance of my dog being shot! I KNEW there was no chance of him being strangled because I was there with him! I KNEW there was no chance of him cutting himself because it was smooth wiring! And that was a one off!! 

At least I don't deliberately hurt my dogs in the name of 'training'!!


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## gunnergundog (27 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			I was playing with my dogs in my friend's garden. They cannot run after a ball while attached to a lead and there was no reason whatsoever for me to believe that anything would have happened when he jumped the fence. He was over, grabbed the ball and came back again in less than a minute! Perhaps the reason why my dogs come back to me as readily is because they associate coming back with something really pleasant like a tasty treat or playtime. They have nothing to fear from me!
		
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Or perhaps it's because they've learnt the extent of their lead so know how far they can go before YOU jerk them back! Just a thought!

Also, a farmer with a field of pregnant ewes would take exception to your opinion that allowing your dog to jump into the field would do no damage!   

Also, I think you have totally missed the psychology behind Dry Rot's idea of attaching a dead chicken to an electric fence.....the dog in that circumstance has nothing to fear either; it is akin to nature (the best teacher of all!) teaching it a lesson.  No human intervention whatsoever.

Oh, and I assume that you had your dog on a harness, as opposed to a collar, when you allowed it to jump into that field ......just in case it jerked itself and did untold damage!


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## Alec Swan (27 January 2016)

*Love_my_Lurcher*,  I'm doing my level best to ignore your silly,  distorted and exaggerated claims and jibes,  and I'm genuinely trying to see if I can find some common ground with you,  and I'm currently failing.  

It probably won't register with you,  but at some time or other I've disagreed,  some times *strongly*,  with just about every person who currently disagrees with you,  but not now.  The common voice seems to speaks as one,  and I'm staggered that you seem unable to grasp that when the world tells us that we're wrong,  that's mostly because we are.  Your continuing and I'm sorry but nonsensical statements,  and your theorised 'facts' simply aren't born out by experience,  at least not of those present.

I'd suggest,  and with respect,  that were you to research the thinking and reasoning capacities of dogs and just how limited they are,  then you may come away with a different point of view,  and if you were to then train a dog or two,  you may well reform your view points.

Alec.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (27 January 2016)

gunnergundog said:



			Or perhaps it's because they've learnt the extent of their lead so know how far they can go before YOU jerk them back! Just a thought!

Also, a farmer with a field of pregnant ewes would take exception to your opinion that allowing your dog to jump into the field would do no damage!   

Also, I think you have totally missed the psychology behind Dry Rot's idea of attaching a dead chicken to an electric fence.....the dog in that circumstance has nothing to fear either; it is akin to nature (the best teacher of all!) teaching it a lesson.  No human intervention whatsoever.

Oh, and I assume that you had your dog on a harness, as opposed to a collar, when you allowed it to jump into that field ......just in case it jerked itself and did untold damage!
		
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What part of the field belonging to my friend's neighbour (who I know does NOT own a gun) did you not read? And my dogs were not on their leads when they were playing as I would not have them on leads when they were running about! They also have really good recalls when they are OFF lead and they NEVER get jerked about by me!

And I have not misinterpreted DR at all. He believes that causing a dog pain deters undesired behaviour.  It is also creating fear through pain! I have major issues with that!

Oh and neither of my dogs are inanimate objects so please don't refer to them as such!


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## gunnergundog (27 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			And I have not misinterpreted DR at all. He believes that causing a dog pain deters undesired behaviour.  It is also creating fear through pain! I have major issues with that!
		
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In which case you do not (sadly) understand nature.....


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## Love_my_Lurcher (27 January 2016)

Alec Swan said:



*Love_my_Lurcher*,  I'm doing my level best to ignore your silly,  distorted and exaggerated claims and jibes,  and I'm genuinely trying to see if I can find some common ground with you,  and I'm currently failing.  

It probably won't register with you,  but at some time or other I've disagreed,  some times *strongly*,  with just about every person who currently disagrees with you,  but not now.  The common voice seems to speaks as one,  and I'm staggered that you seem unable to grasp that when the world tells us that we're wrong,  that's mostly because we are.  Your continuing and I'm sorry but nonsensical statements,  and your theorised 'facts' simply aren't born out by experience,  at least not of those present.

I'd suggest,  and with respect,  that were you to research the thinking and reasoning capacities of dogs and just how limited they are,  then you may come away with a different point of view,  and if you were to then train a dog or two,  you may well reform your view points.

Alec.
		
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And I suggest you stop living in the dark ages of dog 'training' and start learning what modern science is PROVING!


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## Clodagh (27 January 2016)

Amazingly I bet DR's dogs have good recall too, in spite of being absolutely terrified of him. And everyone else on this threads. LML are you really arrogant enough to suggest that your way is the only way that works?


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## Love_my_Lurcher (27 January 2016)

gunnergundog said:



			In which case you do not (sadly) understand nature.....
		
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Except nature doesn't tie a dead bird to an electric fence for the sole purpose of a dog shocking themselves now does it?


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## gunnergundog (27 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			Except nature doesn't tie a dead bird to an electric fence for the sole purpose of a dog shocking themselves now does it?
		
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No, but an adder bite does the business!  Or an ewe with newly born lambs afoot, or...I could go on.  Get the message?


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## Love_my_Lurcher (27 January 2016)

Clodagh said:



			Amazingly I bet DR's dogs have good recall too, in spite of being absolutely terrified of him. And everyone else on this threads. LML are you really arrogant enough to suggest that your way is the only way that works?
		
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I am not being arrogant. I am just appalled by the fact that you lot are sugar coating abuse and calling it 'training'! And DR's dogs will recall because they are afraid of having something unpleasant happening to them. Mine recall because they are happy to do so. There's a bit of a difference there!


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## Alec Swan (27 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

And I have not misinterpreted DR at all. 

He believes that causing a dog pain deters undesired behaviour.  

It is also creating fear through pain! I have major issues with that!

&#8230;&#8230;..!
		
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For simplicity;

a: You have completely and possibly wilfully misunderstood the principles of dog training.

b: Cause and effect works with dogs just as it does with humans (on occasion),  and it's how we learn.  

c: 'Respect',  in part includes fear for animals and it's an entirely different concept that humans follow.  To believe otherwise is to anthropomorphise,  and is a dangerous path for the trainer.

Alec.


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## gunnergundog (27 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			And I suggest you stop living in the dark ages of dog 'training' and start learning what modern science is PROVING!
		
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Oooooooooo..............do tell!  Opening a bottle of wine, as this looks like it could be a long night, but there again, could get bored very quickly!


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## Love_my_Lurcher (27 January 2016)

gunnergundog said:



			No, but an adder bite does the business!  Or an ewe with newly born lambs afoot, or...I could go on.  Get the message?
		
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So now you are saying that people should tie dead adders and sheep to electric fences and get dogs to shock themselves to make them too afraid of going near them? Besides, just because snakes bite and sheep kick does NOT make it okay for us to hurt dogs! Get the message?


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## Clodagh (27 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			I am not being arrogant. I am just appalled by the fact that you lot are sugar coating abuse and calling it 'training'! And DR's dogs will recall because they are afraid of having something unpleasant happening to them. Mine recall because they are happy to do so. There's a bit of a difference there!
		
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Have you ever tried to get a dog to recall to you using fear? No one does. You are a very strange person.


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## gunnergundog (27 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			So now you are saying that people should tie dead adders and sheep to electric fences and get dogs to shock themselves to make them too afraid of going near them? Besides, just because snakes bite and sheep kick does NOT make it okay for us to hurt dogs! Get the message?
		
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You REALLY are missing the point!  There is ABSOLUTELY no need to tie a dead adder to an electric fence - the live one bites and does the business WITHOUT human intervention!  Likewise, the ewe with newly born lambs afoot.  WE have no need to hurt dogs; NATURE does the training for us, and nature's timing in administering a negative is far superior to that of any human  - sadly, it is YOU that is not getting the message.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (27 January 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			For simplicity;

a: You have completely and possibly wilfully misunderstood the principles of dog training.

b: Cause and effect works with dogs just as it does with humans (on occasion),  and it's how we learn.  

c: 'Respect',  in part includes fear for animals and it's an entirely different concept that humans follow.  To believe otherwise is to anthropomorphise,  and is a dangerous path for the trainer.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Except science has PROVEN that dogs and humans are a lot more alike than previously thought and are better at reading us than our closest living biological relatives - the great apes! It should also be noted that humans are animals too. 

As for cause and effect. Humans aren't exactly in the habit of shocking and yanking each other about in order to teach them something are they? 

Regarding anthropomorphising. There is no such thing when dogs do in fact feel pain and fear and learn things at a similar rate as younger human children!


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## Love_my_Lurcher (27 January 2016)

Clodagh said:



			Have you ever tried to get a dog to recall to you using fear? No one does. You are a very strange person.
		
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The fear of being shocked or being suddenly jerked back is what recalls them!


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## planete (27 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			The fear of being shocked or being suddenly jerked back is what recalls them!
		
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No.  Fear might make them stop, it would not make them come back to the trainer.  Sorry, your reasoning is beginning to unravel.  You must have seen dogs who come close but never close enough to actually be caught?  That is fear and it is not recall, it certainly would not be any use to a serious trainer who competes his dogs.


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## Thistle (27 January 2016)

LML, going back to an earlier post.

DR states the need to stop a dog dead whilst running after a ball.

This is NOT achieved by yanking a dog about, after all whatuse would a dog who only knew to run a certain distance be on the shooting field.

My own parttrained Springer was taught this using a tennis ball as a reward, a fairly common method.

First you teach the dog to sit, just by saying the command as it's bottom hits the floor (using food, treats of observation), or by blowing the whistle instead of using a word. You use a hand signal too. Then you start to use the command when out and about, asking the dog to sit/stop where appropriate.

Now, Beans my springer had a problem realising he could sit/stop away from my side. I used a tennis ball in my hand, raised as I do for normal stop command, he immediately raised his head to look, his bottom hits the floor, hey presto, a stop, ball as reward. I can now just use the raised hand and/or a whistle and he will stop wherever he is, whatever he is doing and look at me for his next command, usually a directional one to give him a clue where the dummy/game to be retrieved is.

All this is done off the lead, no yanking, no pulling with total cooperation from the dog.

There are many variations to train this command, none involve yanking and pulling.

IF YOU WANT TO ARGUE CHECK THE FACTS FIRST11111


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## Slightlyconfused (27 January 2016)

So what about when I let my agressive rabbit beat my collies up to stop them chasing the horse rabbit. 

Ten minutes with him and they would not go in the garden.if he was out and they left my house rabbit alone to.enjoy life. They learnt the rabbit was something to avoid and leave alone without me telling them.


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## Alec Swan (27 January 2016)

This thread is following a path to which there can be no resolve,  and I'd strongly recommend,  before we become less than charitable,  that we leave LmL to her own thoughts and beliefs.

AAD is generally a well mannered and kindly section of this forum and it would be better were it to remain so.

Alec.


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## AdorableAlice (27 January 2016)

Blimey, I am exhausted and the lurcher lady needs therapy.


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## CorvusCorax (27 January 2016)

'I'm tired of these ******ing snakes on this *****ing fence!'


Whoops. Wrong film. Anyone fancy a coconut?


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## npage123 (27 January 2016)

Not popcorn time after all then.


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## Dry Rot (27 January 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			This thread is following a path to which there can be no resolve,  and I'd strongly recommend,  before we become less than charitable,  that we leave LmL to her own thoughts and beliefs.

AAD is generally a well mannered and kindly section of this forum and it would be better were it to remain so.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

I think I came to that conclusion about twenty posts ago!


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## ester (27 January 2016)

Just to clarify, as you clearly didn't read properly *I* do not use a freedom fence, I don't even own a dog! I live on a site with one, and associated dogs...

I have to say I was sceptical but it has been interesting seeing it in use. 

And as for not letting them wander freely in the first place the whole point is that they rat and alert us to presence of strangers, they can't do that in the house :rolleyes3:

I think we are probably beyond logic now though and I have feeling which dogs have the more interesting and fun life. 

I wonder if LL rides?

The other time I saw cesar use a shock collar, was on a farm dog (ie one with a job he was there to do) that was obsessive over moving tyres. Obviously the concept of a dog having a job is likely problematic but electric shock (is it worth mentioning the collars vibrate too, the fence gives a warning beep when close) versus tractor tyre I know which will cause most problems. . 

I thought it might help to state what happens when they go through a freedom fence, ie they don't disappear into the distance.


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## ester (27 January 2016)

Oh and re humans don't shock each other they really do! They even shock themselves if left to their own devices. It is all very good spouting that science is proving xyz but in which case you should be using the proper terminology for behavioural manipulation and some references might help 

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014...lectrically-shocked-left-alone-their-thoughts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

I'd argue that some humans also do much worse things to each other.


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## zigzag (27 January 2016)

Wow I'm glad my lurcher is a bit thick  She was swimming in the local pond the other day with 8 ducks didn't attempt to chase them lol


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## EQUIDAE (27 January 2016)

zigzag said:



			Wow I'm glad my lurcher is a bit thick  She was swimming in the local pond the other day with 8 ducks didn't attempt to chase them lol
		
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Got a love a lurcher! I have one who chases but has fantastic recall, and one who doesn't chase but who's recall is shocking - cross them and I would have the perfect dog,


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## ester (27 January 2016)

zigzag said:



			Wow I'm glad my lurcher is a bit thick  She was swimming in the local pond the other day with 8 ducks didn't attempt to chase them lol
		
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Was that because she couldn't swim fast enough?


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## Leo Walker (27 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			Or not let the dog wander freely in the first place!
		
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zigzag said:



			Wow I'm glad my lurcher is a bit thick  She was swimming in the local pond the other day with 8 ducks didn't attempt to chase them lol
		
Click to expand...

Mine was retrieving in the lake one day and thought he'd paddle over and check the swans out. No bad intent, he was just curious. It was a decision he came to regret :lol: Its not funny really but I wont ever forget him paddling away like a loon with a gaggle of swans in hot pursuit :lol: He swims but hes not a natural swimmer and the swans just quietly kept pace with him while swearing vigorously at him. Hes never shown any interest since


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## Love_my_Lurcher (28 January 2016)

Clodagh said:



			Have you ever tried to get a dog to recall to you using fear? No one does. You are a very strange person.
		
Click to expand...

Plenty do. They get the dog to fear punishment for not coming back. 



gunnergundog said:



			You REALLY are missing the point!  There is ABSOLUTELY no need to tie a dead adder to an electric fence - the live one bites and does the business WITHOUT human intervention!  Likewise, the ewe with newly born lambs afoot.  WE have no need to hurt dogs; NATURE does the training for us, and nature's timing in administering a negative is far superior to that of any human  - sadly, it is YOU that is not getting the message.  

Click to expand...

In which case there is no point tying a dead chicken to an electric fence! After all dead chickens don't flap about or make noise! And would you please just quit going on about nature. Nature is NOT responsible for attaching a dead bird to an electric fence just so a dog can go and shock themselves while trying to get it. A human (not nature) is solely responsible for that!  



Thistle said:



			LML, going back to an earlier post.

DR states the need to stop a dog dead whilst running after a ball.

This is NOT achieved by yanking a dog about, after all whatuse would a dog who only knew to run a certain distance be on the shooting field.

My own parttrained Springer was taught this using a tennis ball as a reward, a fairly common method.

First you teach the dog to sit, just by saying the command as it's bottom hits the floor (using food, treats of observation), or by blowing the whistle instead of using a word. You use a hand signal too. Then you start to use the command when out and about, asking the dog to sit/stop where appropriate.

Now, Beans my springer had a problem realising he could sit/stop away from my side. I used a tennis ball in my hand, raised as I do for normal stop command, he immediately raised his head to look, his bottom hits the floor, hey presto, a stop, ball as reward. I can now just use the raised hand and/or a whistle and he will stop wherever he is, whatever he is doing and look at me for his next command, usually a directional one to give him a clue where the dummy/game to be retrieved is.

All this is done off the lead, no yanking, no pulling with total cooperation from the dog.

There are many variations to train this command, none involve yanking and pulling.

IF YOU WANT TO ARGUE CHECK THE FACTS FIRST11111
		
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You are the one who needs to get  your facts straight. DR *clearly* said that he uses a check cord to make the dog come to an abrupt stop! So, *YES* there is jerking about involved!  



AdorableAlice said:



			Blimey, I am exhausted and the lurcher lady needs therapy.
		
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So I need therapy because I like to keep up-to-date with modern behavioural studies and with what science is proving with regards to the canine mind? I also need therapy because I think that abusing a dog in the name of 'training' is abhorrent and should have no place in modern society?


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## Love_my_Lurcher (28 January 2016)

ester said:



			Just to clarify, as you clearly didn't read properly *I* do not use a freedom fence, I don't even own a dog! I live on a site with one, and associated dogs...

I have to say I was sceptical but it has been interesting seeing it in use. 

And as for not letting them wander freely in the first place the whole point is that they rat and alert us to presence of strangers, they can't do that in the house :rolleyes3:

I think we are probably beyond logic now though and I have feeling which dogs have the more interesting and fun life. 

I wonder if LL rides?

The other time I saw cesar use a shock collar, was on a farm dog (ie one with a job he was there to do) that was obsessive over moving tyres. Obviously the concept of a dog having a job is likely problematic but electric shock (is it worth mentioning the collars vibrate too, the fence gives a warning beep when close) versus tractor tyre I know which will cause most problems. . 

I thought it might help to state what happens when they go through a freedom fence, ie they don't disappear into the distance. 

Click to expand...


https://positively.com/dog-training/methods-equipment/training-equipment/electric-fences/


http://www.examiner.com/article/a-warning-about-invisible-fencing-after-dog-attacked-by-wild-animal


http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/local/dogs-reportedly-attack-man-careflight-responds/nR779/


http://www.hendersonvillelightning....failure-allowed-dog-attack-official-says.html


http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...2/jericho-dog-attack-prompts-debate/71609838/


http://happypitbull.com/owners-manual/basic-care/containment/

http://q13fox.com/2015/01/20/vicious-dog-attack-caught-on-camera/ The comments section reveals the attacked dog was kept 'behind' and invisible fence. 

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Up...marathon-in-Alabama-the-latest-in-a-long-line The dog in this story had escaped an invisible fence. Anything could have happened to him. 


You lot also keep on saying that a shock is preferable to a bullet, a kick to the head, a bite, a tractor tyre, etc, etc, etc, etc. Well if you absolutely insist that a dog be off lead and not confined in an area/workplace that is apparently so dangerous for a dog then perhaps the dog isn't suitable for that area/workplace or perhaps you could keep the dog on lead and only let them off in suitable areas/workplaces. I live in a large sprawling town and even I have found areas that are suitable for my dogs to be off lead. I didn't just take one look round the place and think that it was too dangerous and decide that they would never be off lead (I certainly wouldn't think of letting them off anyway and scare them half to death with a shock). I have found places while out walking, on Google Earth and through word of mouth. 


The dog that CM shocked on the farm could have been rehomed to a more suitable environment or simply kept away from the vehicles. To shock the dog was NOT the last resort! 


And don't you dare say or imply (that because I don't shock my dogs) that they don't lead an interesting or fun life! They certainly do and at least they do enjoy several off lead walks and runs a week and don't have to fear a horrible shock!   


You also wonder if I ride. If you had read one of my earlier posts properly you would have seen that I have only had childhood experiences of working with horses. So I used to ride, but haven't done so in many years. Besides, what on earth has that to do with shocking dogs and using other punitive/aversive methods on them??




FrankieCob said:



			Mine was retrieving in the lake one day and thought he'd paddle over and check the swans out. No bad intent, he was just curious. It was a decision he came to regret :lol: Its not funny really but I wont ever forget him paddling away like a loon with a gaggle of swans in hot pursuit :lol: He swims but hes not a natural swimmer and the swans just quietly kept pace with him while swearing vigorously at him. Hes never shown any interest since 

Click to expand...


You say it's not funny, yet you did make light of the fact that you (presumably) shocked your dog? And (if so) you did so in water??


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## ester (28 January 2016)

As I said I assume you struggle with the concept that some dogs are there with a job to do. And I can't imagine many farm collies doing great under rehomed circumstances :rolleyes3: or people falling over themselves to take them on. 

Re. the riding it has to do with the fact that people who do ride generally do so by asserting some pressure on the animal, and where is the line between pressure and pain, it can be a bit blurred as it requires analysis of the perception within the brain as both are generated by the same receptors, just different frequency of neuron firing. Analysis of where that point actually is (rather than the extremes) is certainly difficult with animals. If you did ride I wondered whether it was only with a neck rope and if not how you squared the use of any aids. 
I was doing some in hand work with my lad yesterday and I am not intending to cause him pain but I am putting pressure on his nose to get him to drop his head so that he can work optimally for his body but where that pressure becomes pain is a non definite line.

frankiecob said nothing about shocking her dog? Just that it was roundly seen off by the swans?

None of those links seem to be the peer reviewed scientific articles I was hoping for given your recurrent use of the term science.
This really wasn't a thread about the pros and cons of freedom fences, I probably wouldn't use one (never likely to own a property big enough for a start) I don't own a dog but I mentioned it because it is my only experience of ever seeing a shock collar being used.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (28 January 2016)

ester said:



			As I said I assume you struggle with the concept that some dogs are there with a job to do. And I can't imagine many farm collies doing great under rehomed circumstances :rolleyes3: or people falling over themselves to take them on. 

Re. the riding it has to do with the fact that people who do ride generally do so by asserting some pressure on the animal, and where is the line between pressure and pain, it can be a bit blurred as it requires analysis of the perception within the brain as both are generated by the same receptors, just different frequency of neuron firing. Analysis of where that point actually is (rather than the extremes) is certainly difficult with animals. If you did ride I wondered whether it was only with a neck rope and if not how you squared the use of any aids. 
I was doing some in hand work with my lad yesterday and I am not intending to cause him pain but I am putting pressure on his nose to get him to drop his head so that he can work optimally for his body but where that pressure becomes pain is a non definite line.

frankiecob said nothing about shocking her dog? Just that it was roundly seen off by the swans?

None of those links seem to be the peer reviewed scientific articles I was hoping for given your recurrent use of the term science.
This really wasn't a thread about the pros and cons of freedom fences, I probably wouldn't use one (never likely to own a property big enough for a start) I don't own a dog but I mentioned it because it is my only experience of ever seeing a shock collar being used.
		
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Well actually there are a lot of dogs bred for specific purposes (such as working) who do great in other aspects of life. Thousands upon thousands of Greyhounds (bred specifically for racing) go on and enjoy home life. There is a Lab on my street who was going to be shot because she wasn't a good gun dog. She is now doing extremely well. I also know of Collies who were once farm dogs, but then rehomed into more built up areas because they were deemed no longer suitable for working. So please don't use that as an excuse. 

As for riding. With what you describe, that is totally different from using electric shocks! 

Also, the first link does contain links to scientific studies. The other links are just a small handful of cases in which electric fencing has failed to keep dogs in and attackers out and have also failed to stop dogs from attacking people.


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## Slightlyconfused (28 January 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			Mine was retrieving in the lake one day and thought he'd paddle over and check the swans out. No bad intent, he was just curious. It was a decision he came to regret :lol: Its not funny really but I wont ever forget him paddling away like a loon with a gaggle of swans in hot pursuit :lol: He swims but hes not a natural swimmer and the swans just quietly kept pace with him while swearing vigorously at him. Hes never shown any interest since 

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Those swans sounded nicer than my rabbit


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## twiggy2 (28 January 2016)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			Well actually there are a lot of dogs bred for specific purposes (such as working) who do great in other aspects of life. Thousands upon thousands of Greyhounds (bred specifically for racing) go on and enjoy home life.
		
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I have to speak up here, greyhounds are not working dogs, and many are rehomed to a life on lead (no life at all in my book) a lab that is not a good gun dog is a very different kettle of fish to rehome than a good working farm collie-I also think that every dog should run loose every day (once they have had a settling in period if needed).
My lurcher would have had a much much more restricted life if she had always hunted cats, she had one shock once, I think it was a very fair exchange. I have had dogs for over 30yrs and have taught dog training for a large part of that time, I have used a collar once and have never suggested the use of one to someone else. I don't really like them, that said I have never ever met a dog with the same prey drive as that one lurcher bitch. 
I also don't think it is the answer for the OP, I think the dog (pup) in this case needs supervision and/or the dogs/chickens need to be kept separate.


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## ester (28 January 2016)

It wasn't an excuse it was reasoning. 

You seem to have completely ignored my point about the neurology (science!) again/at what point things are 'pain',  which I couple with the experience that if I experience an electric shock I don't experience pain it is literally a 'shock' to me but my brain doesn't seem to interpret it as hurt just a transmission of electrical energy.
the end of a horses nose is very sensitive, it probably wouldn't need much to cause him to go ow if he could speak, he can't so . 
What if I smack my horse (this does happen, and to many other horses, but then they also have electric fences).

same as you have ignored the point that humans shock each other too when you claim they didn't!

The first link only contains references for shock collars, none of the other supposedly bullying techniques that have been suggested and I think we have rather got stuck on them even though they were not suggested by most people/the real old school (sorry Alec and DR!) don't use them. I was hoping for more on other forms of punishment/making dogs scared/making behaviour worse. I do actually know the authors of one of the papers cited though


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## Clodagh (28 January 2016)

You say it's not funny, yet you did make light of the fact that you (presumably) shocked your dog? And (if so) you did so in water??[/QUOTE]

This hasn't copied well, but much as I am trying not to rise to the bait how on earth was it cruel for the swans to frighten the dog? No shocks were involved, apart from the dog being 'shocked' when the swans chased him. I am really laughing at how that is cruel - shoulsd we get the RSPCA to speak to the swans and stop them chasing dogs!? Love it!


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## Alec Swan (28 January 2016)

ester said:



			.. even though they were not suggested by most people/the real old school ..
		
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I don't know of one competent dog trainer,  old 'school' or new (assuming that there's a perceived difference),  be they between 18 and 68,  who would use an electric collar on a dog.

To your last paragraph;  'Punishment' is always retrospective and it achieves nothing.  The trick is to have a dog respect us and 'willingly' accept direction (literal or otherwise),  and we do that by having the dog focus on us and bond with us.  Firstly,  we need to gain (or insist upon) the dog's respect.  We don't 'earn' it,  as we would with humans,  we earn it by being insistent,  consistent and demanding it.  

When the dog offers us respect and compliance,  then we return that compliment by varying degrees of 'allowance'.  I have two Cocker bitches here,  one I could allow to sleep in my bed and she would never take advantage.  The other,  if I give even a quarter of an inch,  she'll take a mile!  The one that constantly tests the boundaries is by far the better work dog of the two.

Punishment is pointless.  The dog lives for the moment and does't understand that what it did last week or two minutes ago is the reason for a beating.  The beating (verbal or otherwise) is dished out as an IMMEDIATE reaction to the dog failing to listen to or to ignoring us,  not for the crime which it's just committed.  It isn't splitting-hairs,  there's a subtle distinction.  One works and the other doesn't.

Alec.


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## ester (28 January 2016)

Which is rather why I felt it better if the OP had used the correct terms of operant conditioning when repeatingly mentioning science which is essentially what is being talked about. 
And of course is then linked to the scientific fact that positive punishment although retrospective certainly doesn't achieve 'nothing'


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## Leo Walker (28 January 2016)

Clodagh said:



			You say it's not funny, yet you did make light of the fact that you (presumably) shocked your dog? And (if so) you did so in water??
		
Click to expand...

This hasn't copied well, but much as I am trying not to rise to the bait how on earth was it cruel for the swans to frighten the dog? No shocks were involved, apart from the dog being 'shocked' when the swans chased him. I am really laughing at how that is cruel - shoulsd we get the RSPCA to speak to the swans and stop them chasing dogs!? Love it![/QUOTE]

Indeed! He shouldnt have been over near them and they let him know that in no uncertain terms. He now knows that and stays out of the way of them. Everyones happy  No dogs were physically hurt, although their pride might have been a bit dented :lol:


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