# how to address a High head carridge & hollow back senario



## Angua2 (18 June 2007)

Silly question time!

My 4 year old TB  is unbalanced at the best of times and so tends to stick her head in the air and hollow her back, she is hacking but this is with aid of a Market harborough, and is occasionally working in a lovely long outline with it on.  My problem is that when the martingale comes off "ping" her head is  up and her ears are ticking your chin! (OK over exaggeration, but you get the idea) and she starts a waddling sort of trot.  The same happens if you take any form of contact or apply the slightest of leg aid.

I would lunge but she panics..... and on the odd time that she does actually go round she goes round like a bat out of hell and 5 minutes later you are still trying to calm her down and get her to walk!

I realise that the whole senario is due to lack of back muscle that would benefit from being worked long and low...... so.... how do you get her working long and low, when have limited schooling facilities and you can't lunge her  sensibly,  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Help??

Any suggestions as I am at my wits end with my little red head


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## the watcher (18 June 2007)

I like the pessoa for lunging but it might be asking too many questions of your horse at this stage!

In your shoes I would consider a calmer in the food, eliminate pain in back and teeth and tack, and then do nothing but walk for several weeks to strengthen that back, you can go on to incorporate lateral work in walk which will start to develop the back end....however I am endlessly patient and would rather take 6 months now to build a strong foundation, than rush and have to reschool


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## Angua2 (18 June 2007)

forgot to mention that we have just completed the "annual MOT" for want of a better phrase and all was pronounced  "A OK!"
ahh the joys of posting just before you leave the office and get home!

[ QUOTE ]
 would rather take 6 months now to build a strong foundation, than rush and have to reschool  

[/ QUOTE ] 



Exactly!  it just feels like I am in a catch 22 situation with no glimmer of a way to progress

This is her on a good day!


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## Paint it Lucky (18 June 2007)

I agree with the watcher, do lots of walk work as this will be the easiest pace to get her to work correctly in.  Lateral work, transistions and school movements are all useful for getting her listening and soft.  Only trot when you feel she's going well enough in walk, and if she hollows in trot go back to walk to get her round again.  It will take several months before she is strong enough to work consistently but it will be worth it.


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## pagancluf (18 June 2007)

Ditto other posts, I have same with one of my tb's he did a dressage test and if I could have had £1 for the word hollow on the sheet - well!!!

I am using a pessoa for 10 mins each rein and can see some improvement already after two sessions.

Also in menage I do two circuits on long rein to warm up in walk and then insist on outline before I move off after this.  Takes time and patience and lots of wither scratching, but hang on in there!!


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## bellaM (18 June 2007)

I had the same problem, I got a sylvia Loch Video called on the bit which is invaluble!!!! Ask for some inside bend, lots of transitions and circles. Theres horses like yours on there.
 Its hard to explain in writing!
 Remember to reward him and let him stretch down, don't expect him to stay in an outline for more than a few minutes at first.


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## debradley (18 June 2007)

Hi yah bought my palomino like this 18 months ago.  Infact physio declared her the most upside down pony he'd every seen.  She was so head high and sunken backed that she even found it difficult to put her head down to graze and was declared unfit to ride.  Have to always feed her off the floor and she had 3 months of long reining in walk; no hill walking for first 6 weeks and after three months daughter back on board but lots of low slow work including hills.  Was told if she wanted to carry her head near her toes to let her.  She now looks superb but still can have a high head carriage at times especially in canter but she finds work much easier now and does have a bit of arab in her so high head carriage is a bit in her nature as well.  If you'd like a bit more info for progam we had to follow please feel free to pm me.


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## dieseldog (18 June 2007)

I would have some lessons, it is a lot easier to help someone if you can see the horse and work out straight away if something is workig or not


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## Angua2 (18 June 2007)

Thank you all.  There is now a glimmer in the tunnel.  
I think because I am not on a yard and do not have the luxury of a menage or a flat field, I wobble a bit and loose all sense of direction 

Lessons are something that we will be resuming shortly, once I have found an instructor that isn't booked solid and that I can go to ( due to the no school or flat bit of field issue!).

I will investigate the video and debradley I would be very interested in learning more about the route you had to go, so i will PM you shortly

thankyou


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## Sparklet (19 June 2007)

At 4 she is a baby and I think you need to persevere with the basics and return to lunging (approach her as though you were starting a baby when lunging).  She will be desperately trying to find her balance when mounted which will contribute towards her neck up/hollow back problem - horses use their neck to balance. 

I would stop using the market harborough because from the piccie you can see an over-developed under neck muscle so I suspect she is pulling up against the pressure and all you are doing is developing the 'hollow, neck up' muscles rather than the top line.

Transitions ridden and lunging would be my approach.


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## Angua2 (19 June 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
At 4 she is a baby and I think you need to persevere with the basics and return to lunging (approach her as though you were starting a baby when lunging).  She will be desperately trying to find her balance when mounted which will contribute towards her neck up/hollow back problem - horses use their neck to balance. 

I would stop using the market harborough because from the piccie you can see an over-developed under neck muscle so I suspect she is pulling up against the pressure and all you are doing is developing the 'hollow, neck up' muscles rather than the top line.

Transitions ridden and lunging would be my approach. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree lunging would be the way to go, BUT she is terrified, and panics, which is why I am trying to find an alternative.  

The market harborough is set so it only comes into play when she shoots her head beyond the point where we have control so she never has any pressure 100% of the time.  

As for  the muscle, this was always rather well developed before I got my hands on this little girl, I had put it down to the fact that she cribs &amp; windsucks, and that the high head carrage was something she learnt in training for balance and is now habit.  

It is this trait I am trying to address inorder for her to work properly over the back, thus strengthning the muscles which in turn will allow the head to come down.... it would appear that it is a chicken and egg senario, shame that she cannot cope with lunging as the passoa is gathering dust!


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## Sparklet (19 June 2007)

I see,  cribbing and windsucking would explain the large muscle..what a shame.

She does seem like a stressy worried pony and a mag based calmer might help chill her out a bit.  

Is she off the track?, the reason I ask is because it doesnt sound like she has been broken using the lunge which is the usual way of starting a horse, either that or she may have had a scarey experience - got tangled in the rope??  You may need help to get her started using walk, halt commands on the lunge until she calms and starts to understand what is wanted.  It is worth it to try and get this bit more established.


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## sally2008 (19 June 2007)

Can I suggest that you also take a good long look at her foot balance too.  If you look at her from the side when she is standing naturally, are her back legs well under her body?  If so, she could well be moving in the high head / low back way because she has no other option.   Look at the angle of her hind feet particuarly and assess whether she has to adopt this stance because the length of her toes prevent her from standing over more ground, raising her back and relaxing down into a softer shape.


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## CentrestageSHS (19 June 2007)

There was an arab mare that came into my yard for schooling with exactly the same problem and we did a few things that really worked:
1. she was fed off the floor constantly, her food in a bucket, her hay in a big tub.
2. we bought a lungee bungee thing for her, this was very elasticated so she had it on quite a lot, even with just her headcollar on while we brushed her etc.
3. we lunged her with a pair of side reins going through her front legs to the bit, (also called a harbridge) this let her work long and low or high but she was round at all times. Because of her underdeveloped muscles, this way allowed her to carry her head in different positions as she wanted but still working correctly. I did lunge her in a hilly field so she learnt to carry herself on all terrain, up and down hills.
4. gridwork, poles and jumping always help because they have to look down and bascule, it also stretches the whole top line.
5. start trotting on good ground up very steep hills, they cannot trot uphills for long with their head up and they soon drop their nose.
6. this has nothing to do with head position, but the mare always used to pull back, rear up and snap away when she was tied up, this was like a game, she was not frightened. I know it sounds funny but we put her in a stable with quite a low roof, if she put her head really high her ears would touch the ceiling. We started tying her up in there while grooming her and mucking out instead of outside the stable (we got sick of going to catch her!), she tried to break away a few times by rearing, banged her head twice and that was it, the mare never reared again, while tied up or under saddle. The low roof also helped to keep her head low and relaxed as she had to drop her head slightly to look over the door.
Hope these few ideas may help you!


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## Angua2 (19 June 2007)

Belive it or not she is an extreamly chilled, laid back little girl (until she spits her dummy out!!) 
The picture was taken at her first ever outing, and yes while she looks worried and unsure she dealt with it all. ( it was a nice local little informal do, and I thought why not, got to start somewhere!)

As for off the track..... Kind of!, she did the training and was a reject at 2 deemed too slow.

It is sounding more and more that there is no other choice than to lunge.  

There must be one flat bit in my field!!


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## Sparklet (19 June 2007)

I meant stressy and worried as in crib biting, wing sucking and the panic when lunging....I wasnt referring to the piccie.


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## Angua2 (19 June 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Can I suggest that you also take a good long look at her foot balance too.  If you look at her from the side when she is standing naturally, are her back legs well under her body?  If so, she could well be moving in the high head / low back way because she has no other option.   Look at the angle of her hind feet particuarly and assess whether she has to adopt this stance because the length of her toes prevent her from standing over more ground, raising her back and relaxing down into a softer shape. 

[/ QUOTE ]


She stands nice and square, a nice rectangle shape.  She is currently unshod at the back and if anything her toes are perhaps a little short.


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## Angua2 (19 June 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I meant stressy and worried as in crib biting, wing sucking and the panic when lunging....I wasnt referring to the piccie. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah opps.... sorry  miss understood 

The cribbing and wind sucking is predominantly only after feeding


Those Ideas are definatly food for thought......


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## Parkranger (19 June 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Silly question time!

My 4 year old TB  is unbalanced at the best of times and so tends to stick her head in the air and hollow her back, she is hacking but this is with aid of a Market harborough, and is occasionally working in a lovely long outline with it on.  My problem is that when the martingale comes off "ping" her head is  up and her ears are ticking your chin! (OK over exaggeration, but you get the idea) and she starts a waddling sort of trot.  The same happens if you take any form of contact or apply the slightest of leg aid.

I would lunge but she panics..... and on the odd time that she does actually go round she goes round like a bat out of hell and 5 minutes later you are still trying to calm her down and get her to walk!

I realise that the whole senario is due to lack of back muscle that would benefit from being worked long and low...... so.... how do you get her working long and low, when have limited schooling facilities and you can't lunge her  sensibly,  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Help??

Any suggestions as I am at my wits end with my little red head 

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to lunge but using MR type methodology - she will go like a bat out of hell but she will calm down once she realises that it a) doesn't phase you and b) if she tanks off, she stops when you want her too.

Ty works so nicely on the lunge but used to drag me around the school, the only strength I had over him was that when he decided to stop, I kept pushing him on.  

Do you have anyone that can help you with this?

Re. the rest, Ty was like that but a good instructor helped us out - still a long way to go though!


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## sally2008 (19 June 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
She stands nice and square, a nice rectangle shape.  She is currently unshod at the back and if anything her toes are perhaps a little short. 

[/ QUOTE ]  Thats good, that's not the issue then.   Sounds like you've a long, slow, patient time ahead of you encouraging her to soften so that her musculature changes from all underneath to all on top.   Best of luck with her, she looks a nice sort.


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## BethH (19 June 2007)

Have rebacked my horse over the last year after a kissing spine op.  He has never been able to use back legs properly hence very hollow back and chucks head up the second you ask for a transition in to trot along with lots of other behavioural and evasion issues, including trying to kill you if you attempt to lunge.

The best thing I ever did was learn to long rein, it was amazing, totally different horse, completely accepted it and it seemed to make much more sense to him.  He started listening much more attentively to voice commands and his relaxation whilst working was brilliant.   I spent 3 months in walk as my key aim was to teach him to slow down and use his back end to help him balance (he always used to rush and plunge on to forehand, unbalance himself and then fall in and out all over the place!) we got a lovely walk, trot and canter on the lines, then I got back on and we used the same voice commands with aids to remind again about his back legs.  Basically we brain washed him in to slowing down and taking his time but taking bigger strides to cover the same amount of ground.  We are now 1 year on from his op and he is off to do his 1st pre-lim dressage test in 3 weeks.  I am happy to give you some ideas if you want to pm me as his re-hab programme has worked very well for him and my physio has said he is the best example of recovery after kissing spines that she has ever seen.  Yougsters have such a big balance issue and it sounds to me like your mare is just struggling a bit to work out how to carry herself.


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