# Good diet for Border Collie



## Taffyhorse (28 January 2010)

Hello All, 

We may be getting a 2yr old Border Collie and I was looking for some advice on the best possible diet for him. I know a lot of complete dog foods are full of sugar and rubbish, and the canned food I wouldn't give to my worst enemy  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I've also heard a lot of advocates for a BARF diet (but I have a v small fridge &amp; freezer so not sure how practical this would be.

Any advice gratefully received. 

Also has anyone had any experience of using Barbara Sykes Thinking Like Canines training philosophy? I'm impressed by what I've read about it but would be good to have other opinions and how its worked in practise.

Cheers


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## CorvusCorax (28 January 2010)

I tried BARF and although it wasn't for my dog, I would do it again with a 'normal' dog 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Skinners and Arden Grange are foods I like.

Have not heard of that training method, no. Just Googled it and it seems BC-appropriate 
	
	
		
		
	


	




And lots of common sense.

Not sure I agree with not formally socialising - I think it is important to expose dogs to lots of different situations, not hide them away from things they might be scared of (although I know this isn't what she is saying) 

I TOTALLY get her with 'down' lie down and 'down' get off the furniture, one of my biggest bugbears!!!

I would have loved for some of the dogs I have known to be taught to walk to heel without a few jerks of the neck and bribing them with food, but that doesn't work for every dog.

Good luck


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## soloabe (28 January 2010)

I feed Raw and although it is helpful to have a bigger freezer its not always necessary.
Before we had a big freezer we would just buy a weeks worth at a time and keep 3 days worth in the fridge and the rest in the freezer.

Once you have that sorted it really is super easy and super good to feed.


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## Taffyhorse (28 January 2010)

Cavecanem, the 'common sense' bit was the part that really appealed to me here  And the fact it is more tailored for BC's which I haven't had a great deal of experience with - had one when I was small and sort of took over my neighbours for the last year or so but most of my 'training' experience is with Labradors (gundogs). 

Thanks a lot guys


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## Lucy_Nottingham (28 January 2010)

I have an 18mnth BC - I had him on James Wellbeloved, Skinners and Hills.

he didnt eat hills until he was really hungry, he eats his JWB quite happily, and skinners he is alright on too.

I did put him on Wagg when I was running low on funds (I know I know! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 ) and he did alright but not as happy as when one the better diets.........

However, the collies at my OH's family farm where I got mine from are all on workers wagg and are all fit healthy animals but obviously they have a way to release the energy etc! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I personally wouldnt do BARF just from lectures we have been given mentioning it at vet school and the health risks etc with it. 

And I havnt heard of the training method u have but CC has (which doesnt suprises me! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 ) however Id say make sure your keen on your training as otherwise they will walk all over you! (I nearly found this out the hard way and Beau is a pretty easy going BC! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 )


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## soloabe (28 January 2010)

[ QUOTE ]


I personally wouldnt do BARF just from lectures we have been given mentioning it at vet school and the health risks etc with it. 



[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me about the health risks you have been told about?


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## NeverSayNever (29 January 2010)

we've tried lots of different foods over the years. now all ours are on arden grange. its the only food we found that suits ALL of them and its great quality.


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## Taffyhorse (29 January 2010)

Is it possible to combine the diets i.e. complete food but maybe a couple of raw chicken wings too? I understand raw food processes much more quickly than complete food so I'm guessing anything raw should be fed prior to the complete food?


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## Taffyhorse (29 January 2010)

Just been looking at the Natures Menu range too - does anybody use and rate this?


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## Sprout (29 January 2010)

My Collie, and my Dobie too, are on Hill's Science - expensive, but they love it and look very well on it.


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## mon (29 January 2010)

our six are on D &amp; H wiorking crunch dous them fine when you see what they eat around farm yard and lambing pens why buy expensive foods the more it looks disgusting the better they love it.


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## Lucy_Nottingham (29 January 2010)

People that feed raw chicken, including bones etc, and the obvious risks of salmonella etc. 

Its pretty obvious risks from feeding raw meat and bone etc but I guess if you are thorough about the source of the meat, quality, and any risks such as parasites in raw meat (most of them are picked up at slaughter houses etc but some of the cysts, larval stages etc can be missed, but its not a problem as we cook meat before eating it, but some of it when uncooked can infect dogs and cats etc) 

Im not saying that obv every piece of meat/carcass etc is infected, just that I personally wouldn't want to take the risk, and calculating the exact balance of every bit of dietary content the dog needs and achieving it through separate meat, veg etc contents seems a bit long winded and in a lot of cases people will get it wrong, where as with complete diets its already done for you (depending on the brand you use) plus its much easier! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 (yes im lazy! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 hehe)

Not slagging it off as I can see why some people like to use it, but I am just not one of those people! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 sorry!

Don't know what hte Natures diet is that the OP mentioned, so will be interested in what that is 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Obv would like to know about different diets etc (as kind of important on our course! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 )


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## Taffyhorse (29 January 2010)

Its on the BARF website - natural but 'prepared' if that makes sense.


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## Lucy_Nottingham (29 January 2010)

ahh will go have a looky!


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## Indy (29 January 2010)

My 2 collies get tinned food and biscuits.  They scoff the lot and have nice shiny coats, bright eyes and bushy tails.  Very happy healthy dogs.

Mind you,this is supplemented with whatever horse/sheep/chicken muck and horse/sheep/chicken food they can get their mouths around.  When it's lambing and ringing time they are really quite disgusting!


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## KarynK (29 January 2010)

I hear this scaremongering about BARF all the time and when you track it down to the source it stems from those with a vested interest in making people believe a dog must be fed from a sack of meat flavoured cereal meal.   

Let me answer your lecturer!!!!! Basically if you feed human quality food there is no more risk than preparing the Sunday lunch and dont forget you can get baddies like Salmonella on vegetables and from contact with surfaces just as easily as with raw meat.

Yes people eat cooked foods but we did not evolve to be a scavenger and a fit healthy canine gut is about as resilient as that of a crow, dogs are natural carrion eaters, why catch it yourself if its just lying there for the taking?  But what everyone forgets is that we Humans enjoy a wide variety of our meat medium or even very rare or in the case of sushi raw.  We eat eggs that are one of the worst risks for salmonella and like them runny which is undercooked!

On BARF there is no need to calculate anything at all, in fact a dog on human grade meat and bones from the main meat species over 2 weeks with some blended veg will be eating everything it needs in a natural and readily available form, unlike most cooked feeds where nutrients have to be re added and they are often synthetic and not proven to be useable by the dog!   

BARF is not long winded at all if you can take a bag from a freezer once a day thats it!  BARF is forgiving in that it will balance over weeks so as long as people feed a variety of meaty bones how can they go wrong? 

Having done extensive research into the processing, quality and contents of commercial feeds especially the cheap ones, I believe my dogs are at far less risk of ill health and far more resilient to disease as a result of a bit of effort on my part.

Just to illustrate Male cattle dog onto raw aged 1yr now 6 .  Worm counts consistently 0,  Visits to vet 1 (innoculations as a 6year old so I could go dog training titres all low but no disease). 
Male cattle dog on raw at 6 now 8, Worm counts 0   1 vet visit at 8 for inoculations (titre status unknown - Could not do titre too aggressive to vet!)

Sisters 8 Huskies most never inoculated 0 worms counts for past 8 years or so, disease none.


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## soloabe (29 January 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
I hear this scaremongering about BARF all the time and when you track it down to the source it stems from those with a vested interest in making people believe a dog must be fed from a sack of meat flavoured cereal meal.   

Let me answer your lecturer!!!!! Basically if you feed human quality food there is no more risk than preparing the Sunday lunch and dont forget you can get baddies like Salmonella on vegetables and from contact with surfaces just as easily as with raw meat.

Yes people eat cooked foods but we did not evolve to be a scavenger and a fit healthy canine gut is about as resilient as that of a crow, dogs are natural carrion eaters, why catch it yourself if its just lying there for the taking?  But what everyone forgets is that we Humans enjoy a wide variety of our meat medium or even very rare or in the case of sushi raw.  We eat eggs that are one of the worst risks for salmonella and like them runny which is undercooked!

On BARF there is no need to calculate anything at all, in fact a dog on human grade meat and bones from the main meat species over 2 weeks with some blended veg will be eating everything it needs in a natural and readily available form, unlike most cooked feeds where nutrients have to be re added and they are often synthetic and not proven to be useable by the dog!   

BARF is not long winded at all if you can take a bag from a freezer once a day thats it!  BARF is forgiving in that it will balance over weeks so as long as people feed a variety of meaty bones how can they go wrong? 

Having done extensive research into the processing, quality and contents of commercial feeds especially the cheap ones, I believe my dogs are at far less risk of ill health and far more resilient to disease as a result of a bit of effort on my part. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly!
I would rather risk the tiny tiny chance that they will get something. Than feed them the crap that is in most dog foods, which leads to many many things worse.

I think its just misunderstanding by people who don't want to feed raw.


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## Patches (29 January 2010)

I am too "iffy" to feed large amounts of raw meat to Harvey, especially chicken - as I don't particularly like handling raw chook for Sunday lunch cooking - but I have no issue with feeding him raw beef as us humans can eat that raw too. I also have no issue with anyone else that feeds it to their dogs either. 

I read an article today that said the biggest risk from chicken to humans was infact campylobacter, not salmonella. Not sure if this is a risk at all to dogs.

On the opposite end of the scale, I do not and would not feed "cheap cereal based" dog food at all. I feed Orijen, which is marketed as a "BARK" feed. It is 75% meat, 25% vegetables and fruit. Yes, the chicken and salmon is steam cooked, and not raw, but I like to think of it as the Rolls Royce of dog food, even if it's not as biologically appropriate as BARF feeding. I was feeding James Wellbeloved before I discovered Orijen (thanks lizziebell) but wouldn't feed anything else now, apart perhaps from Applaws which is very similar. 

I give Harvey a large knuckle bone to gnaw on, uncooked of course, and he does get portions of raw minced beef and lamb a few times a week.

I know it's not ideal.....but it really is as far as I can bring myself to take it at the moment. 

Orijen is not cheap at £50 a sack, but it does appear to be a very high quality feed for those preferring convenience without the "eeeep" factor of raw meat. I am a funny devil. I do not like handling raw meat for us to eat. That's just me.


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## Lucy_Nottingham (29 January 2010)

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying BARF is not the way for some people, but was just explaining why I didnt, so please don't make out like my lecturers etc don't know what they are on about! 
I know some people on here swear by barf and thats fine, its like my farmer feeds workers wagg, which isnt the best food in the world but it does the job and the dogs are fit and healthy which is whats important! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 No matter what the diet is that, to me, is the most important! 

I feed (as I said) hills, JWB, etc and I have always tried to ensure I feed the better complete diets. The complete diets which are of a certain standard are very good, and I agree some complete diets are slightly less "complete" that others.

I was just trying to give my opinion like the OP asked for.


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## Patches (29 January 2010)

Sorry Lucy. I must've given you the wrong impression as I absolutely did not mean to make you feel as though I was belittling your opinion.

You will note that I have some of the same reservations as you and also strive to feed the highest nutritional value produced feed I can afford. 

Every opinion counts. I personally sit somewhere in the middle of "both camps". I am neither for nor against BARF feeding. I am pretty sure that if I adopted a more "natural" diet I would go for something like the DUCK diet (I think that's what I mean).


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## KarynK (30 January 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
I personally wouldnt do BARF just from lectures we have been given mentioning it at vet school and the health risks etc with it. 

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Please don't misunderstand me, I am not saying BARF is not the way for some people, but was just explaining why I didnt, so please don't make out like my lecturers etc don't know what they are on about! 
. 

[/ QUOTE ]


I wasnt misunderstanding you but correcting the misconceptions you had written about the way I feed.  

You have clearly been given lectures by people who themselves have a misconception or a vested interest in portraying a biased view on how a dog should be fed. 

There are clearly two sides to this growing argument and I continue to think it a failing in your training that both sides of the argument are not given an equal opportunity to contribute to your education, despite the fact that a number of practicing UK veterinary surgeons recommend a BARF diet.  

So whilst your lecturers clearly know about feeding dry and unnatural feeds many of which contain food unfit for human consumption and potentially harmful chemicals to a dog they clearly have no experience or in depth knowledge about the concept of feeding a natural raw or even lightly cooked diet.  That being the case they should refrain from putting forward such easily defensible arguments to dissuade students from considering the benefits and potential drawbacks themselves.

The balanced meal arguments are quite frankly laughable since no animal including us eats a fully balanced diet at every mealtime, unless that is you are floating round the earth on a space station or are a domesticated animal intended for food or as a pet!

I would ask how your lecturers recommend captive species of big cat or canine are fed? Do they recommend that they are switched from raw to kibble?

Just out of interest why not post the ingredients and nutrient levels of the feeds you feed on here, does your feed list the preservatives and stabalisers it uses to extend shelf life? Then we can compare.


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## Patches (30 January 2010)

KarynK - I read a box of Bakers Complete yesterday and chuckled when it said 4% meat in the softy meaty pieces. Sooo I take it that means no meat in the other colours pieces? I didn't quite understand it. 

I wish I could bring myself to throw some chicken wings at Harvey to munch on. I'm sure he'd love them as he absolutely goes mad for a raw bone. I just "can't" bring myself to yet. 

I need to get my head around it. I'm thinking those BARK patties might be a good option for someone like me.


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## KarynK (30 January 2010)

I think that 4% is the minimum so it's one up from sprayed on flavour and who's knows what the rest is probably cheap cereals.  It's really difficult isn't it and unlike human food they are allowed to get away with it and use inappropriate wording to boot, maybe Trading Standards might get involved will have to ask, bit busy at mo but will put it on my growing TTD list!

No I know what you mean I have a friend who cannot stand the sight or feel of meat, so I quite understand and after all it goes against everything we have been told and it's hard to break out of it!  But like with human food we are beginning to move away from what people with a vested interest are telling us, after all until a few years ago we were told SMA and the like were better than breast milk through some very clever marketing!  That was stopped mainly through consumer pressure groups.

Yes the patties sound really good and are much more convenient, I do hope someone in the UK can market them as an alternative and I can see they would be really good for those who dont or cant source their own raw.  I would really like to see a consumer led improvement in the quality of dog and cat food generally and more natural and better quality feeds available.  

Perhaps an approach to someone like pets at home who already stock frozen?  They seem to be more honest with their food declarations and might well be interested in negotiating with the Australian company as they could buy in big bulk.  It is available in the USA and I think Prose on here gave it a go.  The problem is that you need some serious machinery to grind bone so the butcher won't be able to do it.


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## Patches (30 January 2010)

I agree. If more of us made informed choices over the quality of our commerical dog food, the companies would be forced to improve the ingredient list's quality in order to make their item saleable. 

I guess the biggest issue were have here is the amount of owners who convenience shop in the local supermarket. These places never carry the High End commercial feeds. There are also the financially challenged or multiple dog owners who would find the price of foods such as Orijen, for example, too expensive. Heck, even I look at it and wonder if I'm mad! 

I love this company and if they were in the UK, I would order from them. Ground up bone in the meat sounds IDEAL for those of us worried about getting our heads around the bone content of a more naturally fed BARF diet. 

http://www.primalpetfoods.com/


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