# Feeding a very underweight tb (with a lot of problems)



## NikitaFellows (21 April 2014)

Hi All,

So two years and a half years ago I bought my TB gelding, who having failed at racing was left in a field with no rugs/feed for 3 months over winter. He was 4 then.

It turns out he has a lot of problems.

He cribs, (it's improved by reducing cereals in his diet)
He has ulcers
He had a bout of colics, 3 in 3 months
He is a slow eater (12lb hay will do him a whole night no problem)

The first year, he gained slowly from the Feb when I bought him to the September. not wonderfully but looked better. He then started to colic frequently and lost condition. The grass was going at the same time and he lost drastically. I had blood tests and they came back normal. 

The following year I nursed him, removed all cereal from his diet and put him in a 75 acre hilly field with only a couple of other horses and let him get on with him (feeding fibrebeet and Dengie healthy tummy to top him up on calories) he gained nicely over the summer. Never fat but he gained.

Between October last year and Christmas he lost all his condition incredibly quickly. He was on fibre beet, grass nuts, topline cubes. 

In Jan this year I moved yards and they were horrified and told me I had to feed him sugar beet and baileys no 4, as it' never failed them. Feeding him three meals a day at recommended amounts for gain, plus good ad-lib (he only gets through 12lb a night) hay he didn't gain in weight at all and the people there said I ought to give up.

He is now on good grazing during the days and fibrebeet with top spec comp. balancer (just to try it), with good quality adlib hay.

He is wormed to date.
He is well rugged up.
I'm not exercising him to burn calories.
He gets 3 small/med feeds a day.
Always has hay.
Teeth recently done by good vet.
Tried adding oil to his feed, after a few days he stops eating it as he doesn't like it.
Is vaccinated to date and blood tests were fine.
He's bright, full of energy, plays in the field. 
His coat looks amazing and shiny.
He's just incredibly skinny and I can't find any answer to keep it on him.


He isn't insured as they won't cover me for anything digestive so it's a lot of money and I can't get gastro guard for ulcers.

He's a 16.1 tb, 500kg. I can see every rib and his back end is almost skeletal. If he wasn't mine and I didn't know he was cared for I'd be appalled.

I've tried:
Grass nuts (no improvement)
Conditioning mix.
Thirds (little effect on weight but irritated ulcers)
Dengie healthy tummy (no real improvement but reduced cribbing)
Fibre beet (best I've found)
Sugar beet (better results with fibrebeet)
Ready mash (rocket fuel)
Simple systems (he wouldn't entertain it, too bland)
Topline cubes (no improvement at all after 3 bags)
I try to avoid cereals because of the ulcers but avoiding all cereal means he loses too much weight.

Just today started on fibrebeet and the top spec balancer.

 All other horses on the yard look amazing. I'm at a total loss. I feel like I've done everything. I've had advice from vets, nutritionists but nothing other than amazing grass has ever out weight on him. It takes all summer for the grass to get him looking good, I get a month of being able to work him then the grass goes and he starts to drop again instantly. No matter how much I plough him with calories or try to keep to just a lot of fibre, nothing helps but grass.

Any help/recommendations?

I can't post pics from phone but will try from laptop or message me if you're interested in seeing the photos of the extent of the problem.

Thanks in advance.


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## bonny (22 April 2014)

Hard to say without seeing the photos but I feel inclined to say that if he's 500kg, looks well and acts well then why worry? Some tb's just stay ribby no matter what you feed them and at this time of year I would just turn him out on the best grass you can find. Have you tried haylage rather than hay ?


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## NikitaFellows (22 April 2014)

Current







Current






When I first got him







End of summer looking his best






End of Summer


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## bonny (22 April 2014)

Looking at the pictures he looks like he needs some decent grass, he must have put on weight last summer as he was looking good, can you just turn him out on some spring grass and give him a holiday ?


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## NikitaFellows (22 April 2014)

Hi Bonny. Found my laptop. Photos below.

Oh yes, forgot to mention. I tried haylage. It was too rich and his legs literally popped from excess protein (vets diagnosis). Graphic pic of the results from 2 weeks of conditioning mix, haylage and spring grass...







Hence, no more haylage!


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## NikitaFellows (22 April 2014)

He's been on holiday since Jan and he's out on decent grass. But it took the whole of summer to get to that stage, in the most amazing field. This was first week of October, he'd lived at grass and been a happy hack all summer with hard feed every evening. It fell back off in a matter of weeks. I need to be able to maintain him. This level of loss and gain every year isnt good or normal. Not to mention frustrating and expesnive for me. He's my only horse and I cant do anything. It's barely worth getting him fit for the few weeks I have where I can do reasonable work with him.


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## OwnedbyJoe (22 April 2014)

When were the last blood test done? Given that he gains weight well on grass which is high in calories and low(ish) in protein, but can't manage the higher levels of protein in grain based feeds, I'd be repeating them, with special emphasis on liver function. He has lost ALL his topline and that combined with the "exploding legs" makes me think he can't tolerate/manage protein, which suggest liver disease of some sort.


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## Kat (22 April 2014)

Looks like you haven't tried micronised linseed yet. Well worth it as it is much more palatable than oil and a good balance of omega 3 and 6. Fenugreek is worth a try as they tend to like the taste and it is good for appetite.


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## be positive (22 April 2014)

The ulcers are an issue and you are doing pretty much all you can by having him on adlib forage but are you using anything to try and help control them, a supplement may not cure but may help maintain them at some level.
Have you tried Protexin?? that is very effective in maintaining a healthy hind gut and they do several types, very helpful if you phone for advice.
Last summer he was on healthy tummy, that has protexin in it and may have helped, you stopped it and he lost weight, just a thought.

Alfalfa is good for horses with ulcers, the cubes may be better than grass nuts for him and worth a try, they do not seem to be on your list.

The tb in my yard is on Red Mills feeds, he has improved a tremendous amount since being  on it, mine is on the 14% as he is in hard work but they do a 10% which we use when he is resting and it is targeted as a complete feed for horses with digestive problems, it could be worth trying. Link at bottom.

Linseed is great but one of mine cannot have even a tiny amount as his legs swell, too much protein so be careful if you try it on your boy.
http://www.redmills.co.uk/uk/horse/products/product/?id=494&parent=373&product_finder_option_ids[]=2&product_finder_option_ids[]=5&product_finder_option_ids[]=21&product_finder_option_ids[]=23


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## NikitaFellows (22 April 2014)

OwnedByJoe - no one has ever suggested lived disease but having just seen your post and doing a bit of reading this seems to fit perfectly and add up with why he is gaining nothing at all now. I'm feeding conditioning feeds and would need to totally reverse it.


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## _GG_ (22 April 2014)

It sounds as though you are spending a small fortune in trialling everything out. You know what works. Good grass. 

Have you thought about investing in a small one of these...
http://www.h2ofarm.co.uk/

One of these is on my list. Takes a bit of getting your head around and you need the right room, but a big insulated shed will do and it's very good stuff. Very high in nutrients but low in protein. Could be worth considering.


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## be positive (22 April 2014)

NikitaFellows said:



			OwnedByJoe - no one has ever suggested lived disease but having just seen your post and doing a bit of reading this seems to fit perfectly and add up with why he is gaining nothing at all now. I'm feeding conditioning feeds and would need to totally reverse it.
		
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Routine bloods should have checked liver function, it is worth looking into further  but I would be surprised if the vet has not considered it.

If you are concerned about his liver avoid oil in any form, low protein which you do already, the other thing to look at is another area of low grade pain causing him to be stressed, do you have a good physio who could check him, they frequently find areas that a vet will disregard.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 April 2014)

NikitaFellows said:



			OwnedByJoe - no one has ever suggested lived disease but having just seen your post and doing a bit of reading this seems to fit perfectly and add up with why he is gaining nothing at all now. I'm feeding conditioning feeds and would need to totally reverse it.
		
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I thought of liver disease straight off, but does it not show on blood tests, I would ask for results in hard copy.
I would jab him with * vitamins and phone up Saracen feeds nutritionist.
Micronised linseed and hi fibre. would be fine for most TBs but presumably not if liver disease.
Also blood test for tapeworm?*


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 April 2014)

_GG_ said:



			It sounds as though you are spending a small fortune in trialling everything out. You know what works. Good grass. 

Have you thought about investing in a small one of these...
http://www.h2ofarm.co.uk/

One of these is on my list. Takes a bit of getting your head around and you need the right room, but a big insulated shed will do and it's very good stuff. Very high in nutrients but low in protein. Could be worth considering.
		
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Yes well we are all eating salads grown this way, and there is no "taste"


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 April 2014)

If I was tough as teak I would say horse is not happy, I am not happy........
I think could set some sort of deadline, no one can keep such an expensive pet when both owners and pet are not happy.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (22 April 2014)

winergy condition, soaked oats (which are high fibre and not rocket fuel as most people think) and micronised linseed.
find Fenlands sports horses on facebook and ask her about the Equite Elite supplements that will be available in the uk soon, the mega build is an absolute miracle product for putting condition on


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## _GG_ (22 April 2014)

MrsD123 said:



			Yes well we are all eating salads grown this way, and there is no "taste"
		
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We are not horses.


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## Meowy Catkin (22 April 2014)

You need to treat the ulcers. Can you not get gastroguard at all? 

Also his front hooves are very unbalanced with long toes and under-run heels. Has your farrier/trimmer mentioned this?

I have found micronised linseed very good with my mare who worried some weight off this winter. She has has swollen legs from excess protein in the past and the linseed didn't cause any problems for her. The grass should be coming through now, which will definitely help your boy.


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## paulineh (22 April 2014)

I too would say treat the ulcers if that is what you know he has. Alfa oil is a good forage and yes try the Microlized Linseed. Get a small bag first to see if he will eat it.

I would also give him a de-dox for his liver and a blood tonic such as Pro Pell or Red Cell.

We all know good grass is what will put weight on a horse.


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## Dobermonkey (22 April 2014)

I would get liver function redone from reading poor thing sounds like an ex race my friend ended up with.  She was repeatedly reported to the rspca over its condition but it was not for the want of trying.  She went to the kennels in the end as she went down and wouldnt get up.  when they opened her up they said her liver was severely damaged with less than a 3rd viable.  they concluded ragwort posioning.

A friend refused to pay for gastro gaurd and ordered an american version (possibly via canada) for her chap


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## NikitaFellows (22 April 2014)

In no particular order. 

1. He's in livery - no room to be growing my own. 

2. My farrier is out today. He has terrible feet but they look worse here by the way the farrier squared the toes, so they're now fluted. I avoided getting them trimmed as, like someone else suggested, I was about to call it a day and have him PTS unless I found an answer. I wasn't going to pay a farrier bill and then put him down the next week. 

3. No, I can't get gastroguard. It's horrendously expensive and the insurers wont cover me for it. 

4. I manage his cribbing ulcers with low cereal feed and I've seen vast improvement. He also got charcoal and spearmint when he cribbed a lot more but since it's better, I now just keep him off the cereal. 

5. I called my vet, the blood tests I had a few months ago showed raised liver enzymes. Since they were unable to put 2 and 2 together I will be changing vets and now someone has said it and I've done some reading, he seems to be screaming liver disease.

6. He's had oil added to his feed and lots of conditioning feed over the winter, which I understand would do more harm than good to a horse with liver disease - have I likely done irreversible damage here? With a change in diet to something very well suited to liver diease, in peoples experience, how long before I might see results? Am I expecting a slow process as the liver repairs?

7. Yes. I've moved to a new livery yard because the quality of the grazing is very high - I know this works well for him, but being in the north of England, summer is a short-lived thing. I need something for the other 11 months of the year!


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## nikkimariet (22 April 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			winergy condition, soaked oats (which are high fibre and not rocket fuel as most people think) and micronised linseed.
find Fenlands sports horses on facebook and ask her about the Equite Elite supplements that will be available in the uk soon, the mega build is an absolute miracle product for putting condition on 

Click to expand...

:nods:

Fig after 2 years of winergy and micronised linseed...







Oats were added late 2013 and the Elite Equine supplements just a few weeks ago. He is positively blooming on them!

We are going to try CS on the Mega Build too.


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## wench (22 April 2014)

After having a TB that was increadibly difficult to put weight on, never really found the root cause of the problem... however it's all very well saying try this feed, try that feed... people on here seem to rave about micronised linseed, personally I've tried it, and the horses I tried it on was a waste of money... didnt do anything for them, Baileys Outshine worked far better!

Has he actually been scoped and diagnosed with ulcers? Has he been scoped recently?

Personally at this moment in time I'd be saving my money from buying bags of expensive horse feeds and spending the money on the vet instead.


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## NikitaFellows (22 April 2014)

Yes. He was confirmed by vet as having ulcers. He hasn't been scoped again as he isn't insured.

I know his problems. He sees the vet regularly. I am not trying to replace a vets advice here, but he is not insured. He was a few hundred pounds to buy and a happy hack. I will not be forking out for further scoping/blood tests.


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## wench (22 April 2014)

My point is that you seem to be spending a fortune on trying out different feeds, and none of them seem to be working.

If you havent treated the ulcers there is a good chance that these are contributing to his weight problems.


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## Meowy Catkin (22 April 2014)

Please save up and treat the ulcers. I'm sure that a cheaper source of the active ingredient in Gastroguard (omeprazole) has been mentioned on this forum.


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## _GG_ (22 April 2014)

wench said:



			My point is that you seem to be spending a fortune on trying out different feeds, and none of them seem to be working.

If you havent treated the ulcers there is a good chance that these are contributing to his weight problems.
		
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I agree with this. It has to be worth the short term cost of treating the ulcers vs the long term cost of high feed bills. In addition, it is also against the law to withhold veterinary care to a horse that needs it. Ulcers are not really to be ignored IMO. Not having a go, just saying...that would be my plan. It'll save you money in the long term and you'll have a much happier, healthier horse.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 April 2014)

NikitaFellows said:



			Yes. He was confirmed by vet as having ulcers. He hasn't been scoped again as he isn't insured.

I know his problems. He sees the vet regularly. I am not trying to replace a vets advice here, but he is not insured. He was a few hundred pounds to buy and a happy hack. I will not be forking out for further scoping/blood tests.
		
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Well, I am not sure what you want, are you saying he is not worth it, so will be shooting him and buying another one?......... this is not the usual way, horses are like all pets, not just for christmas. Why did you buy a horse with so many problems if you were not willing to spend on veterinary treatment?
I don't see what insured/not insured has to do with it.
If vet advised treatment which you know will treat a known condition, I don't quite see the problem.
Personally it gives me no pleasure to look at a horse in such a state, and if I don t do a hobby for pleasure, why do it?


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## Goldenstar (22 April 2014)

OwnedbyJoe said:



			When were the last blood test done? Given that he gains weight well on grass which is high in calories and low(ish) in protein, but can't manage the higher levels of protein in grain based feeds, I'd be repeating them, with special emphasis on liver function. He has lost ALL his topline and that combined with the "exploding legs" makes me think he can't tolerate/manage protein, which suggest liver disease of some sort.
		
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I would agree with this and some blood work is where I would start if he where mine .
But I would based of course on what's found with the bloods be treating those ulcers with gastroguard .


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## NikitaFellows (22 April 2014)

Believe me, no-one gets less pleasure out of seeing my horse like this than I do.

Your attitudes are very hostile and upsetting! I bought a very skinny horse in January from a field with no rug. I had no idea of the other underlying problems - there was nothing to suggest any. It is only with time that I've realised he doesn't gain weight as he should.

My horse does not want for care, or the vet. He has had my every penny and is very well loved and cared for to the absolute best of my ability and bank balance. I have sought help from every avenue. I have paid thousands in vets bills to get him through colic, and blood tests and his exploded leg amongst other things. The vet has been called regarding his weight and said the tests are prohibitively expensive without insurance. I take extreme offence at your attitude that I would just put him down and replace him. He is irreplaceable. I nursed him to health and through many an awful time. Therefore, if you're here to tell me I'm heartless and you're wonderful, please leave it.

I agreed with my vet that the ulcers would be managed using supplements, management and feed. I did this and it was agreed that his windsucking was drastically reduced but the condition didn't improve unless he was at grass.

The cheaper option to gastro guard was mentioned and my vet said it's around £75 a month and it was questionable how well it worked and I'd need it for six months.

I bought a horse not knowing his problem, got attached and have done all in my power to get him healthy. Money, unfortunately, does not grow on trees and not can I sell a horse in this condition, therefore the only other option is PTS. I'm not willing to do that until I'm sure I've tried all I can. I posted here as a last ditch to get other peoples opinions.

If my vet thought I was withholding treatment, I'm sure they'd have something to say. They don't, because I take their advice on his management often.

I'm not ploughing him with expensive food, I'm trying to find a diet which works. This is not at the expense of a vets visit.

I'm looking for suggestions, not criticisms. I know that I do my best. If anyone wants to bankroll me or set up an insurance company that doesn't have the exclusions, please feel free but my hands are otherwise tied.


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## JDH01 (22 April 2014)

Having had a very thin horse who we couldn't get to gain any weight despite all types of high quality feed I would seriously suggest the higher level blood test which gives a full work up.  Once we had this rather than the basic we were able to get to the bottom of a complex system failure which was much wider than just liver function.  Unfortunately in our case this was too late as the organ failure was too much for him to recover.  Have you noticed him standing and straining like he wants to wee or any ventral pitting oedema?


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## wench (22 April 2014)

Lots of the branded horse feed on here are expensive... Baileys outshine is £40+ a bag and on max rations you'd get through that in about two weeks!

I never did find out why my skinny tb was so skinny. However it was probably due to chronic pain from the numerous problems she had. 

She did just as well on cheapo pony nuts as conditioning cubes


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## Walsworld (22 April 2014)

Please try Gastroplus from Equine Science - it worked fantastically on my horse. If your boy has ulcers he will not be able to absorb anything correctly and the pain will take the weight off him.  So all the money you are spending trying different feed will be a waste of time. Gastroplus is around £200 for a months supply - my lad only needed a months worth and then moved onto the Gut Maintenance.


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## Goldenstar (22 April 2014)

There's no point in trying to feed the horse into a good condition if it is sick .
You need to get some good blood work done by an expert vet .
That's just the start .


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## flirtygerty (22 April 2014)

Faracat said:



			Please save up and treat the ulcers. I'm sure that a cheaper source of the active ingredient in Gastroguard (omeprazole) has been mentioned on this forum.
		
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Go to your doctor, plead a dodgy stomach and they prescribe omeprazole, I damaged my stomach using diclofenic for arthritis and was given omeprazole, but I would also give your lad natural yoghurt and micronised linseed, I bought a companion hatrack mare two years ago and she's blooming now, in fact she got so fat, we thought she might be pregnant, turns out she had been starved at the rescue we got her from, but it doesn't alter the fact that micronised linseed put weight on, my 20yr old TB is a very poor doer normally, this year he has lived out, had ad lib hay and one feed a day of easibeet, linseed, marmite, unmollassed chaff (BF) and he has dropped a bit , but not alot, I would try a bare foot diet along side natural yoghurt, which is known to sort out digestive problems, sorry if this is rambling, but it is late and I've had a hard day, good luck with your lad, you obviously care


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## NikitaFellows (22 April 2014)

Thanks Flirtygerty.

Interesting that you can get it for people... what stomach complaint do I need to develop?!

Linseed goes against the liver disease diet and my current plan based on his past symptoms and lots reading today is to treat him as though he has liver disease for 2 months and monitor him to see if there is any improvement using the no oil/low protein/milk thistle combo. If not, we move on. 

I have had blood tests and used all kinds of remedies for ulcers previously. I simply can't afford the expensive stuff from the vets but have done everything else I can and continue because he is showing no signs of chronic pain (other than the weight loss). He is bright and happy, he doesn't stress, he hasn't changed, he is alert and doesn't hide in the corner of his stable or act aggressively. He is sweet and lovely natured. There is nothing to suggest he is suffering pain. 

Presumably, if ulcers were stopping him absorbing any nutrients at all, he wouldn't have done so well last summer on the grass. The problem occurs when the grass loses quality at the end of summer and I have to start using hard feed to replace it as hay alone isn't enough for him. He is capable of gaining weight and muscle because he does it. He loses weight when I'm feeding him for condition, so the problem seems to be in digesting the conditioning food (in line with liver disease). He does well on only grass.


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## OwnedbyJoe (23 April 2014)

Ad lib fibre will help both the ulcers and the liver issue.. I would personally drop EVERYTHING from his diet and feed him ad lib, quality hay. Can people in the UK access cereal hays?
You need at least 12 MJ/KG digestible energy, high digestibility and not more than 10% protein. This is a big ask with UK hay I think but would be the best thing for him. If you can find it, it will be enough for him (if he gets it truly ad lib) unless/until he is in full work. Adult horses do not need more than 10% protein in their diet.
Feed ad lib - and I mean in front of him ALL the time. Buy a slow feeder hay net.
The ulcers will be contributing to hims eating so slowly - we had a pony here with ulcers and it would take him all night to eat 5 litres of feed. If you cannot afford the omperazole etc then aloe vera is good, or slippery elm.
Whack him full of B vitamins - B12 is liver protective and good appetite stimulant. Feed milk thistle.


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## wench (23 April 2014)

My horse that was thin showed no signs of being in pain either. Until bloods were done (the expensive comprehensive one) and guess what she had problems. 

Is he on DIY or full livery? If the latter are they actually feeding him


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (23 April 2014)

i think some people are being a little quick to judge here, gastro guard is impossibly expensive for most people and even the Omeprazole from Abler is hundreds a month at full dose.

Ive done both and it absolutely crippled me and im probably still paying the bill off my credit card!

OP my horse is not the best doer and has been tried on gastroguard, omeprazole and numerous other supplements for ulcers.

the one that made the biggest diff is Egusin SLH. He did one tub (£85 for 2 weeks) at full dose, one tub at half dose and is now on 1/4 dose daily which keeps him happy.

he's recently started having 2 x gaviscon double action and 1 x zantac in every feed and seems happier again (despite that being a tiny dose for horses) you can them both cheaply in boots so maybe try that?

as long as mine continues to improve im going to try to taper the egusin off and just use the gaviscon and zantac and see how he gets on  (just to see what works best, if he needs all 3 he will go back on all 3 )


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## chestnut cob (23 April 2014)

NikitaFellows said:



			He does well on only grass.
		
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Not sure if this has been suggested already.. if he does well on only grass, what about feeding him something like Just Grass in the winter?


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## NellRosk (23 April 2014)

MrsD123 said:



			Well, I am not sure what you want, are you saying he is not worth it, so will be shooting him and buying another one?
		
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This is completely unnecessary, the OP clearly loves her horse and is doing all she can, you don't know her circumstances which dictate why she can't afford gastroguard and your nasty post isn't helping. Sorry OP, I have nothing helpful to add as I have no experiences of ulcers/ thin horses (mine are the other way unfortunately) but I hope you get sorted with him.


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## wench (23 April 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i think some people are being a little quick to judge here, gastro guard is impossibly expensive for most people and even the Omeprazole from Abler is hundreds a month at full dose.
		
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I think it was more the fact that a number of different people have perhaps suggested that there may be pain elsewhere in the horse (myself being one).

If OP can highlight exactly what has been tested with the horse, and what the results were, then we can probably advise better.

For example if they have had the £200+ blood test done, and found there is nothing wrong, well liver function, internal stuff etc should all be fine.

The comprehensive bloods on my horse showed that she had some kind of internal abcess. Got that sorted, horse still didnt put on any weight. I eventually found out that my horse had chronic kissing spines, and probably never put on weight due to the amount of pain she was in.

I can relate to the statment saying they dont have much money to spend, however my arguement is that you can spend hundreds in different feeds over a period of a few months, as well as the livery that goes with it, whereas sometimes its easier to spend this money at least getting some kind of idea of whats wrong with the horse.


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## martlin (23 April 2014)

I think you are a on a bit of a losing battle here, OP. You need to find out what the horse's ailments are and have them treated in order to make a difference, and it seems that you can't afford to do that, so in effect, you are throwing good money after bad.
As heartbreaking as it is, you either need to find the funds to have the horse treated or call it a day.


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## amandap (23 April 2014)

Other possible conditions aside some things here might help with gut and gastric ulcers. http://www.lunatunesfreestyles.com/horse_ulcers.htm

http://www.barefoothorseblog.blogspot.ie/search/label/hind gut acidosis


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## Meowy Catkin (23 April 2014)

I understand what you are saying PS as I've had to pay for Gastroguard in the past and it is eye-wateringly expensive. However I have had a horse (the one that was being treated for ulcers) colic and die due to stomach ulcers that hemorrhaged. I wouldn't have been able to live with myself if that had happened and I hadn't tried to treat the ulcers.


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## Mitchel (23 April 2014)

Here are a few suggestions.....

Liver Problems = Milk Thistle
Weight Management = Straight cooked Linseed (micronized linseed)
Stomach issues = Activated charcoal

Try Equus Health, I've heard they are helpful...  Good luck and I hope you get it sorted.

(I hope this works...ive just joined!)


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## Amaranta (23 April 2014)

Mitchel said:



			Here are a few suggestions.....

Liver Problems = Milk Thistle
Weight Management = Straight cooked Linseed (micronized linseed)
Stomach issues = Activated charcoal

Try Equus Health, I've heard they are helpful...  Good luck and I hope you get it sorted.

(I hope this works...ive just joined!)
		
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Sadly you would need to avoid oil if the horse has a compromised liver.

I tend to agree that the root of the problem needs to be established, otherwise anything you feed would be like throwing mud at a wall in the hope that some of it sticks.


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## JDH01 (23 April 2014)

Just a thought on the pain issue we need to remember that as a prey animal horses are really good at hiding even high levels of pain.  My recent experience with the horse I described in previous post on this thread is that he must have been in really significant pain but outwardly looked well, had a good coat and seemed interested and bright.  With hindsight I wouldn't have intervened earlier as there were no obvious signs.


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## NikitaFellows (24 April 2014)

He has had a comprehensive blood test done... This is how I know about the slightly raised liver enzymes! This was the only abnormality, and it was slight.

To the person pointing out that I'm spending a fortune on feed and livery and farrier etc... Those things don't stop just because you have to pay vets bills. Vet bills are on top! I racked up over £600 in 2 days for the said blood panel, call outs, consults, tested his droppings, paraffin because his droppings were hard. The cost of gastroguard alone is more than I earn in a month as a part-time admin. 

I'm a student working as much as possible. I don't earn much and what I do is so that I can have my horse. My life would be more financially comfortable without, but I can't sell him, can't insure him as he's excluded on everything I need and I'm not willing to put him down until I'm happy I've tried all I can after, especially all this effort to sort him. If I had him put down the other day, then someone said liver disease I'd be devastated that I'd never come across the idea which seems to fit every symptom and had opportunity to try treating it like liver disease, as would anyone.

For the people suggesting herbal remedies, thanks. He's on a cereal free diet (has been for just over 12 months), he also gets charcoal, spearmint, tried Rennies as many suggestions to settle stomach acid and is now on Top Spec Comp. Balancer which seems to have a lot of B vits and digestive aids. Basically everything I can give him other than the crazy expensive gastroguard. 

His condition is the same as last spring and by end of summer he looked amazing so this weight loss isn't persistent or degenerative or chronic, he can do it on the right diet. 

He is on ad lib hay and I've used fibre beet for a long while. He's not the type to scoff hay, he eats about 14lb a night and this isn't quite enough on its own. Dentist has done teeth so this isn't slowing him.

If I had any means of affording omeprazole (as gastroguard or other) I'd have him scoped again and he'd have it if needed but as I understand the problems I genuinely believe this problem runs deeper, due to his ability to gain weight over summer and the fact he stopped cribbing.


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## Ellibelli (24 April 2014)

Do you know his full history? The reason I ask is that my old boy had two major colic operations many, many years ago and lost about 18 foot of intestines. As a result, he spends each winter looking like an RSPCA case, but puts enough weight back on through the spring and summer on good grass to survive another winter, he simply can't digest anything other than grass and forage. I have tried just about every feed and supplement on the market and found that anything with cereal in makes him crib and wood chew like crazy. I've found that the best top quality haylage and Red Bag Grass Nuts by Simple Systems (mad from spring grass) and Thunderbrook basemix are the most effective at keeping him reasonable through the winter. He also loves Coolstance Copra and micronized linseed, but obviously you need the liver issue confirming before you add any oil based feed. I found he did fairly well on Pure Feeds and Dodson and Horrell ERS Pellets, basically anything low starch with no cereal in. Having said that, I am currently trailing him on Slobber Mash (thanks Prince33Sp4rkle !), which is in theory quit high starch and does contain cereals, and he hasn't started cribbing yet so this is another option you could look at and Rowen Barbary feeds have been highly recommended to me in the past? Good luck with him, you are clearly a caring owner and having experienced similar issues with my horse of a lifetime, I do appreciate what you are going through x


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 April 2014)

Ellibelli said:



			Do you know his full history? The reason I ask is that my old boy had two major colic operations many, many years ago and lost about 18 foot of intestines. As a result, he spends each winter looking like an RSPCA case, but puts enough weight back on through the spring and summer on good grass to survive another winter, he simply can't digest anything other than grass and forage. I have tried just about every feed and supplement on the market and found that anything with cereal in makes him crib and wood chew like crazy. I've found that the best top quality haylage and Red Bag Grass Nuts by Simple Systems (mad from spring grass) and Thunderbrook basemix are the most effective at keeping him reasonable through the winter. He also loves Coolstance Copra and micronized linseed, but obviously you need the liver issue confirming before you add any oil based feed. I found he did fairly well on Pure Feeds and Dodson and Horrell ERS Pellets, basically anything low starch with no cereal in. Having said that, I am currently trailing him on Slobber Mash (thanks Prince33Sp4rkle !), which is in theory quit high starch and does contain cereals, and he hasn't started cribbing yet so this is another option you could look at and Rowen Barbary feeds have been highly recommended to me in the past? Good luck with him, you are clearly a caring owner and having experienced similar issues with my horse of a lifetime, I do appreciate what you are going through x
		
Click to expand...

let me know how you get on with the slobbermash 

once you know what his issues are OP this could be an option for you if he can tolerate it, my TB has never looked so well on it but it can make them buzzy if they are that way inclined!


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## FairyLights (24 April 2014)

Rowan barbary feeds do a condition feed with lots of fibre but no cereals  their phone number is 01948 880598. Hope this helps


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## Dobermonkey (28 April 2014)

I asked my friend yesterday about the gastro guard as she was going to get it for her horse with suspected ulcers and due to cost she ordered an omerpr product from abler which  was £150 for a months supply  she also said that apparently equine america do a product for ulcers which her trainer swears by


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## TheMule (28 April 2014)

I would find the very best grass livery you can (preferably on a farm with proper managed grassland) and keep him out 24/7 all year round.
I did this with my very skinny horse and she has been normal ever since, she just doesn't thrive in a stable/ on hard feed.


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## celticcob (13 May 2014)

This is a fascinating read! Id like to reach out to the person posting and encourage them to get in touch if they want to see photos of a horse displaying exactly the same weight problem! Kookie1988@hotmail.co.uk

We have a 18yo ex NH gelding, rehomed as a rescue looking fat after a summer at good grass, but Very poor feet and very stressy. Within a month he had dropped weight to look like a coat rack. And we have never been able to get weight on him in the last 3 years. We have tried everything! Moved yards 3 times. Vet did simple bloods but thy came back normal, so discouraged to do more. He is happy in himself, but looks aweful. He has intermittent illness (abcess's, corns, coughs, colds, occasional stiffness, puffy legs) but they all come an go. The latest was a bout of hives lasting 3 months. Vets just scratch their heads. Tried every feed, physio, farriers, rugs, hay etc. nothing puts weight on him. So we have talked about having him pts but not felt at that stage yet. He is happy as a companion and ridden for ROR shows. 
Sometimes we feel he is just one of those horses who will never gain weight unless fully retired to grass, and as that is not an option with us he will be pts when his time is up, it's kinder than letting him get into the wrong hands.


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## NikitaFellows (13 May 2014)

I've been meaning to post an update here, but forgot until I just saw this...

I have good news. Jake has gained weight really well over the last few weeks, I'm amazed at the difference in him.







(from this 6 weeks ago)








So, this is what I've been doing differently...

He has settled on the new yard, first of all. At the moment he's out during the day, in on a night until the end of May when the summer field will be ready.


He's on the Equine America Ulser Gard (it was £25 and within a week I noticed he was happier in himself, more chilled in his stables. I often find him snoozing.)

He gets two feeds a day of sugarbeet/fibrebeet, top spec balancer, the ulser gard and a handful of fibre nuts. Nothing else. No fats or cereal.

Rugged up slightly warmer than you might think on a night.

But most importantly I feel, he stopped eating his hay (obv. the spring grass makes the hay boring!) so I've been filling, (stuffed to the brim) a treatball, every night, with fibre nuts. Within days he started to gain. I think it's a combination of this teamed with the ulser gard. Perhaps a touch of the spring grass too, though his field isn't very full.

He is in regular, good work again and starting to build some muscle.

I really never thought I'd see the difference from such simple little changes. Fibrebeet, the ulser gard and fibre nuts as a hay replacer, or on top of hay. Obviously he has a long way to go, but the improvement is vast.


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## NikitaFellows (13 May 2014)

Check the thread underneath


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## flojo (13 May 2014)

I've just written out a long post re: the need for treatment of the gastric ulcers. I have now seen the update that you have posted.
Thank God that he's receiving something to help relieve the symptoms. gastric ulcers are agonising and can be life threatening if not treated. I still think that he should receive GastroGuard which will actually heal the lesions/ulcers and not just mask the symptoms. It shouldn't matter that your insurance won't cover the cost, it's your responsibility as an owner to get veterinary treatment for your horse when it's needed.


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## NikitaFellows (13 May 2014)

Please read my update above and have some manners.


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## flojo (13 May 2014)

NikitaFellows said:



			Please read my update above and have some manners.
		
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Ditto!


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## OwnedbyJoe (14 May 2014)

"I've been filling, (stuffed to the brim) a treatball, every night, with fibre nuts. Within days he started to gain. I think it's a combination of this teamed with the ulser gard. Perhaps a touch of the spring grass too, though his field isn't very full."

THIS..
And flojo my understanding of gastric ulcers is that, given time, fibre in the stomach ALL the time, and protection from further acid (which the Ulser Gard appears to do) the ulcers will heal themselves. Unlike human ulcers, there is no bacterial invilvment, so as long as you can prevent further damage, the stomach lining can heal itself.
All that said, I don't think I'd EVER take this horse off the Ulser Gard.
He looks heaps better - well done Nikita!


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## flojo (14 May 2014)

I'm sorry but by the Owner's admission this horse has been struggling for 2 years!

I can tell that she wants to do whats best for her horse, that's obvious. 
What I can't understand is why spend all that money on different feeds and supplements when it could have been used to pay for veterinary treatment that would have solved the problem? I just don't get it.



OwnedbyJoe said:



			And flojo my understanding of gastric ulcers is that, given time, fibre in the stomach ALL the time, and protection from further acid (which the Ulser Gard appears to do) the ulcers will heal themselves. Unlike human ulcers, there is no bacterial invilvment, so as long as you can prevent further damage, the stomach lining can heal itself.!
		
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I'm quite aware what causes equine gastric ulcers and how to treat them thank you. But like I said, after TWO years this horse was still struggling...Just how long do you leave ulcers to 'heal themselves'???


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## boats (14 May 2014)

id echo the other posters saying you could be throwing good money away without getting to the root of the cause. i was in a similar position with my ish, he lost weight, looked terrible, coat was awful, kicked whenever you went near his belly. I was convinced it was ulcers and i would have bet my life on it. I was going to start a gastroguard trial but vet convinced me to send him in for a full check up as she didn't think it was ulcers (even though all the symptoms were there). He went into the large student veterinary hospital here, got scoped and full work up and treatment for 450 euro. Turned out it wasn't ulcers, he was in chronic pain with a back lesion, mild kissing spine and osteoarthritis in his hocks. I already have an exracer with kissing spine and in a million years i wouldn't have suspected this other horse had  a back issue. he's been jumping and working well, with no signs of discomfort in his back apart from tension in canter. He loves his job so he'd kept working well despite the pain. The pain had cause the weightloss, bad coat and all the other symptoms. 

I'm so glad the vet made me send him in. In all honesty i would have spent more money on gastroguard and changing feed otherwise and it wouldn't have helped a bit.


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## OwnedbyJoe (15 May 2014)

Hmm... Never suggested the ulcers were going to "heal themselves" in the preceding 2 years. What I said was that NOW, on the diet she has him on with the Ulser Gard, they stand a pretty good job of healing themselves (and seem to be doing so if he is that much happier). She is not just "masking the symptoms" NOW, as you suggested:




			I still think that he should receive GastroGuard which will actually heal the lesions/ulcers and not just mask the symptoms.
		
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 and I see little advantage at this stage switching to Gastrogard. What she is doing appears to be helping the horse, so perhaps she would be wise to stick with it!


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## Hetsmum (17 May 2014)

Lovely to see him back looking much better!  One of mine has a liver enzyme problem at the moment and he is on milk thistle......£20 and will last almost 2 months.  They also recommended Allen & Page Fast Fibre which he seems to love as a great weight gainer with no cereal in it.  Just soak for 30 seconds.....probably similar affect to the fibre beet you are using.x


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## nuttychestnut (18 May 2014)

My horse was like yours until he had his ulcers treated. Unfortunately I think you need to just start the treatment, otherwise all the money you are spending on food is going to waste. 
Speak to your vet about human treatments, they maybe cheaper than gastroguard.


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## fuzzle (19 May 2014)

Why are you feeding mixes when he has ulcers!!  mixes or corn are bad for ulcers, most of the symptoms above are all linked to the ulcers hence why he doesnt eat has this will hurt him and colic is classic sign of ulcers because he is in so much pain!!!  get him on a good medication for ulcers if you cant afford gastro guard  get him on gastroplus this is lots cheaper and worked on my horse!!  a good maintance for ulcers and good grass 24/7 if poss and on chilly nights a rug on  bet you in a month you will see a massive difference!! good luck hun  keep everyone posted how you get on


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## Firewell (21 May 2014)

I haven't read all of the replies but OP if you want to try an ulcer supplement I have used Abrazole with great success. It is Omperazole (sp?) Combined with a carrier and works just as well as Gastroguard but is much much cheaper.
My mum had used Equine Science Gastroplus with her ex racer with a lot of success. He has always been hard to keep weight on and he looks a beast now


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## JoClark (22 May 2014)

Ive not read all of the replies.  My horse had ulcers and I did manage to get him treated with GG and cribs, however this is what I do.

Feed: simple system lucie pellets, alfa a molasses free, top spec comprehensive balancer. In winter add linseed and up portions, he's doing very well at the moment so he is on the lite balancer as of the weekend. The comprehensive balancer is very good so I think you are on the right track.  I also use global herbs restore (liquid) 1ltr bottle every 3 months, it is a liver tonic which gives them a boost and it is really good.  I also use protexin, when i worm i use the paste for a few days so it doesnt cause stomach upsets, i am trying the acid ease at the moment but usually use the gut balancer, fab stuff, really is. 

For ulcers you can use abrazole which is from america, zantac is relatively cheap (speak to your vet about trying this, needs to be given 2/3 times a day to work like GG but still works) or a new product on the market which has been tested like GG.  This is Peptizole, it is cheaper and you get more in a syringe so will last longer.  

If you know ulcers are there then dont give up on this horse, it must be whats causing the problems, its sad but you can really make a difference without spending a fortune.


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## maccachic (22 May 2014)

There are pics of my guy in my profile I think.

I tried a whole range of things (used to work as a rep for a feed company) the best thing I did was to put him on Oats, alfalfa chaff (always had alfalfa chaff with the different diets and this didn't change), plenty of salt and a good multi vit.  I found brewers yeast helpful as well.

The change in him was amazing and I wish I had done progress pics.  He go to the point where he could summer on grass and vits alone and just needed oats for a weight top up over winter.

He had adlib fibre (grass or hay or combo) all thru


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## JoClark (22 May 2014)

Also just read back a few pages where you thought there was another problem not just ulcers as in spring puts weight on and practically stops cribbing.  Mine does the same and there is no other problems.  I think there is always enough grass in spring that they don't feel the need to crib and the extra nutrients in the grass puts the weight on.  A good quality hay helps to, the long dry grass really lines the stomach, mine gets ad lib.
Good luck and by the sounds of the cost i think zantac/ranitidine might be the best option for you price wise.


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## Packhorse1 (23 May 2014)

Lets assume all veterinary tests have been undertaken to exclude other health issues and he is in OK health, and teeth of course are sorted - by properly qualified EDT. If not all sorted on vet and teeth front that needs to be done first.
Does he actually need that hard feed - for energy?  
Decent hay (or grass) provides the genuine bulk of the horses diet - this is the feed which puts weight on in the first place - this is the most natural feed and what horses need most of.  He is not really working that much so does not need hard feed (energy food) - or does he ? 

 is he sluggish and slow when ridden ?  if not then maybe just give a good all round balancer (supplement in a carrier) and fill him up with good hay/grass

why not just give it a try - fibre feeds instead.  Perhaps you need to step back and rethink it all - give bulk 'fibre feed for fat' (the 4 f's) and 'hard feed for energy'.  Sometimes hard feed (to some horses) is like giving e numbers or sugar drinks like coke to kids - makes them busy so they burn up all their food instead of it running to fat - so it doesnt put on weight it just gets burned off.  Take it back to basics give fibre feed for fat.  Might not be the issue but could be worth thinking about anyway.


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## NikitaFellows (23 May 2014)

He's very much on this approach now and it's working well. He gets sugarbeet, balancer and the ulcer supplement. That's his feeds.


Otherwise he's just on the grass. 

When he's in, he the gets baileys fibre nuggets in a treat ball as he wont entertain any hay at all now that the spring grass has come through.

For those interested, this was a couple of days ago.


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## Tnavas (24 May 2014)

First thing I would even though you have a good worming program is to. Bomb drench him. Worm weekly for three weeks with a broad spectrum wormer, one that contains Ivermectin and Praziquontal. Having worked in quite a few racing stables their worming programmes can be quite variable to non existent.

Next a really good Equine Dentist, with a gag, to check his teeth really carefully.

Then have a chiro check him over thoroughly. Many years ago I had a TB off the track who was like yours. He turned out to have his neck out of alignment and was in constant low grade pain. Finally manipulated under anaesthetic his weight gain was amazing.

Have you tried Copra yet, it's great for putting on weight.


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## claracanter (24 May 2014)

NikitaFellows said:



			He's very much on this approach now and it's working well. He gets sugarbeet, balancer and the ulcer supplement. That's his feeds.


Otherwise he's just on the grass. 

When he's in, he the gets baileys fibre nuggets in a treat ball as he wont entertain any hay at all now that the spring grass has come through.

For those interested, this was a couple of days ago. 






Click to expand...

Just wanted to say well done OP. Well done for keeping on trying with your horse. His weight gain is tremendous, you must be so pleased. Here's hoping he will continue to flourish and you can now have lots of fun together.


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## NikitaFellows (19 November 2015)

After someone contacted me recently after reading this thread, I thought I'd post a quick update for those interested. Pics first. 

This was the state I bought him in:







This was two years in, at the end of winter. This was not at his worst, (unfortunately). I deleted all photos I had of him at his worst because I couldn't bear to look at them.








These are now:







Schooling about 8 weeks ago.








As you can see... we've come a REALLY long way. 

He still cribs badly. He still doesn't hold weight as much as I'd like in the winter, but he holds enough that he can be kept in good work all winter. But, generally, as you can see, he looks great and is much happier.

Feed and management wise I've discovered:

Things that work: 

Moving yards to somewhere with few horses, lots of well-managed grass, as much turnout as possible and amazing haylege. (I'd spent years avoiding haylege on everyone's advice, but it works for him, so I'm putting it here.)

Feed:
Baileys Fibre Plus nuggets (in fairly large quanities in his treat ball.)
Baileys Keep Calm (small amounts and fed quite sloppy)
Saracen Equijewel (because it's the only stabilised rice bran I can get) - 1 small scoop a day soaked.
Fenugreek - see link below.
Lecithin granules (soaked) - see link below. I like to feed this first on it's own with a touch of the soaked rice bran.
Brewer's Yeast - 40g a day - thinking of trying Yea Sacc to replace this when I can get hold of some.
Micronised Linseed - There's a bit of debate on whether this sends horses loopy. It certainly gave Jake an edge when fed in large amounts (read: it bronced and was a total loon) so I've cut down to a sprinkle which seems to work.


http://goodhorsekeeping.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/ulcers-in-horses.html   This page was really useful. I don't use everything listed but lots of info and ideas. The comments are equally as useful as the initial post.

Things that didn't work:
The huge majority of things that traditionally put weight on. Anything high in starch or sugars. Anything with cereal. Anything wheatfeed based, though he can tolerate a bit.
Readymash - A mistake in the early days, it made him a skinny, crazy psychopath. It was like rocket fuel. 
A&P Calm and Condition - useless.
Bailey's Topline Cubes - too much cereal. He dropped weight. Again a mistake in early days taking other people's advice.
Veg Oil in his feed - turned his nose up. Much easier ways to get oil in him (eg. rice bran)
Alfalfa - Some say do, some say don't. I saw no benefit.


Middle Ground: 
Equine America Ulser Gard - I used this for a while and sometimes felt it helped, sometimes didn't. With the current feed regime I don't use it. If he dropped weight drastically again I'd consider trying it again.

Dengie Healthy Tummy - on the yard before this with poor grazing I used this. It didn't do much, but certainly didn't hurt or make him drop weight.

He's still not insured, still can't get gastroguard or more scoping, though I'm more convinced than ever it's a hindgut issue, and since this management agrees with him, I see no reason to change it.

I hope some of this may be helpful to others in similar situations. Even if it's just motivation not to give up. It's taken me almost 4 years to get to this point.


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## EQUIDAE (19 November 2015)

What a transformation! Well done you 

I too swear by the fibre plus nuggets from Bailey's  and they can double as a treat


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## NikitaFellows (19 November 2015)

Thanks! 

He goes mad for them and a few friends who've tried them all come back with positive comments too. They are handy as feed, treats and a perfect fit for the treat ball. They also don't crumble in your coat pocket if you want to carty a few around, which is a bonus. (Unless you put them in the washing machine! Doh!)  Bailey's are a nice company to deal with too. I'm planning to read up on the Complete Fibre Plus Nuggets and see what the difference is.


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## EQUIDAE (19 November 2015)

NikitaFellows said:



			I'm planning to read up on the Complete Fibre Plus Nuggets and see what the difference is.
		
Click to expand...

The idea of them is great but sadly they seem to be high in cereals  I just stick to the fibre plus in a treat ball then give a feed of chaff and a balancer plus linseed in the winter.


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## Princess16 (19 November 2015)

Wow he looks amazing! well done you for sticking by him and spending time and effort on what works for him.

There should be more owners like you


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## whizzer (19 November 2015)

NikitaFellows said:



			After someone contacted me recently after reading this thread, I thought I'd post a quick update for those interested. Pics first. 

This was the state I bought him in:







This was two years in, at the end of winter. This was not at his worst, (unfortunately). I deleted all photos I had of him at his worst because I couldn't bear to look at them.








These are now:







Schooling about 8 weeks ago.








As you can see... we've come a REALLY long way. 

He still cribs badly. He still doesn't hold weight as much as I'd like in the winter, but he holds enough that he can be kept in good work all winter. But, generally, as you can see, he looks great and is much happier.

Feed and management wise I've discovered:

Things that work: 

Moving yards to somewhere with few horses, lots of well-managed grass, as much turnout as possible and amazing haylege. (I'd spent years avoiding haylege on everyone's advice, but it works for him, so I'm putting it here.)

Feed:
Baileys Fibre Plus nuggets (in fairly large quanities in his treat ball.)
Baileys Keep Calm (small amounts and fed quite sloppy)
Saracen Equijewel (because it's the only stabilised rice bran I can get) - 1 small scoop a day soaked.
Fenugreek - see link below.
Lecithin granules (soaked) - see link below. I like to feed this first on it's own with a touch of the soaked rice bran.
Brewer's Yeast - 40g a day - thinking of trying Yea Sacc to replace this when I can get hold of some.
Micronised Linseed - There's a bit of debate on whether this sends horses loopy. It certainly gave Jake an edge when fed in large amounts (read: it bronced and was a total loon) so I've cut down to a sprinkle which seems to work.


http://goodhorsekeeping.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/ulcers-in-horses.html   This page was really useful. I don't use everything listed but lots of info and ideas. The comments are equally as useful as the initial post.

Things that didn't work:
The huge majority of things that traditionally put weight on. Anything high in starch or sugars. Anything with cereal. Anything wheatfeed based, though he can tolerate a bit.
Readymash - A mistake in the early days, it made him a skinny, crazy psychopath. It was like rocket fuel. 
A&P Calm and Condition - useless.
Bailey's Topline Cubes - too much cereal. He dropped weight. Again a mistake in early days taking other people's advice.
Veg Oil in his feed - turned his nose up. Much easier ways to get oil in him (eg. rice bran)
Alfalfa - Some say do, some say don't. I saw no benefit.


Middle Ground: 
Equine America Ulser Gard - I used this for a while and sometimes felt it helped, sometimes didn't. With the current feed regime I don't use it. If he dropped weight drastically again I'd consider trying it again.

Dengie Healthy Tummy - on the yard before this with poor grazing I used this. It didn't do much, but certainly didn't hurt or make him drop weight.

He's still not insured, still can't get gastroguard or more scoping, though I'm more convinced than ever it's a hindgut issue, and since this management agrees with him, I see no reason to change it.

I hope some of this may be helpful to others in similar situations. Even if it's just motivation not to give up. It's taken me almost 4 years to get to this point.
		
Click to expand...

Where do you get Lecithin from? I can only find stuff for humans!do you use that?


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## NikitaFellows (20 November 2015)

That's the stuff. You can get it in Holland and Barrett. It's cheaper to order it in bulk online, but H&B do tubs of the granules to get you started. They're about £6.


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## NikitaFellows (20 November 2015)

Princess16 said:



			Wow he looks amazing! well done you for sticking by him and spending time and effort on what works for him.

There should be more owners like you 

Click to expand...

Many thanks for this lovely comment!


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## Hetsmum (20 November 2015)

He looks great OP!  Don't know if this will help you but Falcon Equine Feeds do Rice Bran - you can order online I it is £27 for 20kg with £6 delivery to your door.  This might work out cheaper than the Equi Jewel and they are great to deal with.


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## whizzer (20 November 2015)

NikitaFellows said:



			That's the stuff. You can get it in Holland and Barrett. It's cheaper to order it in bulk online, but H&B do tubs of the granules to get you started. They're about £6.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, next question what do you do with it eg amount? Do you just chuck it in the feed?


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## NikitaFellows (20 November 2015)

I have a small scoop I use for supplements (sorry I don't know the exact measure of it). I give him two of these a day, so roughly a handful in all, and I soak it along with cup of rice bran for 10 minutes before feeding.


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## Goldenstar (20 November 2015)

Has he ever had colic again ?


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## NikitaFellows (20 November 2015)

No. Not for several years now. *touch wood*


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## Noble (21 November 2015)

Well done, have a big pat on the back.  He is blooming!!!


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