# Grand National 2012- Carnage! What did everyone think?



## ASBO Bob (14 April 2012)

I usually love horse racing so was looking forward to the GN today.  But it was horrific! Far too many fallers, being realistic I was hoping for only three or less. And Synchronised and According to Pete being PTS is such a shame for owners and fans.   
Surely it has to be made safer?  I realise this gets said every year but today just seemed horrendous.  Just a thought, did it seem to anyone else that the brush on the fences was slowing the horses in mid air who caught their hooves in it?  Would they have slid over more birch style fences more easily?


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## Wildforestpony18 (14 April 2012)

I totally agree, it was terrible x


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## tractor (14 April 2012)

It's the first year that I've really felt sad - both horses looked so well, and were focussed on heavily in the build up. 

I still like jump racing, but I am beginning to wonder why frequent horse deaths are "acceptable" in racing......if there were deaths every year at Badminton (for example) it would be cancelled or very heavily amended immediately......I don't understand why it's OK in racing.....

Thoughts to all involved with the two PTS, so very sad for you. xx


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## ASBO Bob (14 April 2012)

totally agree with tractor.  not only was 2 horses being PTS very sad but the number of horses battered and bruised by falling 
and horses rolling over fallen jockeys! 
Think its very lucky that none of the jockeys were seriously hurt- they must be very grateful for modern hats and bodyprotectors!


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## 3Beasties (14 April 2012)

I love racing and love the National but I am struggling to watch it more and more every year. Making the fences smaller or the course shorter will not help as they will just go faster causing worse injuries, the only other option is reducing the number of runners. It does seem like there are less fallers once the field has been halved but they could just be better jumpers then the ones that fall.

It's sad that the Winner is always overshadowed by the death of the horses, it's such a bitter sweet day


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## murphysmummy (14 April 2012)

Maybe we should make hats and body protectors for the horses too! ;-) x


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## ASBO Bob (14 April 2012)

3Beasties said:



			I love racing and love the National but I am struggling to watch it more and more every year. Making the fences smaller or the course shorter will not help as they will just go faster causing worse injuries, the only other option is reducing the number of runners. It does seem like there are less fallers once the field has been halved but they could just be better jumpers then the ones that fall.

It's sad that the Winner is always overshadowed by the death of the horses, it's such a bitter sweet day 

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yes to the smaller field idea- a few times today when one horse fell it took down two more with it.  having more space to get past each other might help...


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## dressagelove (14 April 2012)

They were going on and on about how they are making these safety improvements, and horses have to have proven their capabilities before they can race. Clearly not making much difference is it? Too many fallers, and deaths. Any horse can be a gold cup winner and still fall and break its leg!

Horrible watching


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## touchstone (14 April 2012)

I felt physically sick watching it this year, I'm sure I saw one horse galloping off with a damaged leg at one point and my heart was in my mouth with every fence after the first fallers.

It wasn't pleasant having to see the field go past the screened off fifth fence with everyone cheering them knowing  a stricken horse was behind them.

I also thought that Claire Balding seemed upset at the end too.


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## Marydoll (14 April 2012)

I enjoy the racing, but every year the national leaves me feeling  like ive had enough. What a tragedy for these beautiful athletes, i cant help thinking if they were human, things would change .
There is no doubt in my mind the race could be made safer without compromising on the excitement for everyone. 
Im not saying stop the race, thats not realistic, i am saying make it safer,for everyone and start by halving the amount of runners.
On another note can i just say I have nothing but admiration for the courage these jump jockeys show.


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## DunDally (14 April 2012)

I think the only way forward is to reduce the number of runners.  As the field thins out less fall.  So sad for the two PTS.  Any more news on Weird Al - when BBC coverage ended he was apparently still being treated on the course?


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## Milanesa (14 April 2012)

I am so glad I didn't watch I haven't done for years. Sounds awful poor horses x rip


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## amandap (14 April 2012)

"Of course it's the kindest thing"... to put the two who died down. Only humans can comfort (and even applaud) themselves with this sort of perverse 'rationalized' thinking. 

It seems to be getting less 'safe' rather than safer.


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## tinuviel (14 April 2012)

I love racing and the GN but today I didn't enjoy it, when I saw them bypass the fence my heart sank and I kinda hoped it was a winded horse or a jockey down but it was the worst possible news.  I find it harder and harder each year to justify the GN even though I love it for the great sporting spectacle that it is.

Thought I heard Weird Al was also getting treatment, anyone hear anything or is he okay?

RIP Synchronised and According to Pete xx


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## lannerch (14 April 2012)

What the hell was synchronised doing running such a hard race so soon after Cheltenham!
The equivalent of two badmingtons in little more than a month! Greedy greedy owners.


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## cptrayes (14 April 2012)

tractor said:



			I still like jump racing, but I am beginning to wonder why frequent horse deaths are "acceptable" in racing......if there were deaths every year at Badminton (for example) it would be cancelled or very heavily amended immediately......I don't understand why it's OK in racing.....
		
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Up until now I just thought it was "one of those things" that just happens in jump racing. But your post really brought it home to me because it is spot on.

If it was Badminton, it would not be allowed to continue. If it was World Cup Show Jumping, it would not be allowed to continue. If it was Premier League Dressage ........  If it was any other horse sport at all, other than racing, killing horses almost every time it was run, it would be stopped.

And I now think  it should be.


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## touchstone (14 April 2012)

marydoll said:



			I enjoy the racing, but every year the national leaves me feeling  like ive had enough. What a tragedy for these beautiful athletes, i cant help thinking if they were human, things would change .
There is no doubt in my mind the race could be made safer without compromising on the excitement for everyone. 
Im not saying stop the race, thats not realistic, i am saying make it safer,for everyone and start by halving the amount of runners.
On another note can i just say I have nothing but admiration for the courage these jump jockeys show.
		
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I agree maryoll, after todays race I think the chances of a jockey's fatality are also pretty high.


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## ticobay831 (14 April 2012)

I wonder if the race would be banned if as many jockeys got killed and injured :-/


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## 3Beasties (14 April 2012)

touchstone said:



			I felt physically sick watching it this year, I'm sure I saw one horse galloping off with a damaged leg at one point and my heart was in my mouth with every fence after the first fallers.

It wasn't pleasant having to see the field go past the screened off fifth fence with everyone cheering them knowing  a stricken horse was behind them.

I also thought that Claire Balding seemed upset at the end too.
		
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I *think* the screen was up around a jockey  

Does any one find it strange how they never really comment on how the jockeys are? Do we just have to assume that all are OK unless we hear otherwise?


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## Wagtail (14 April 2012)

What about making the fences bigger again and running the race in groups of ten with either a final or fastest time wins. *dons tin hat*


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2012)

3Beasties said:



			I *think* the screen was up around a jockey  

Does any one find it strange how they never really comment on how the jockeys are? Do we just have to assume that all are OK unless we hear otherwise?
		
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FWIW- I was very concerned that one of the jocks stayed down. I sincerely hope they are ok.   I'll confess, I am much more worried for fallen riders than I am for the horses.


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## swellhillcottage (14 April 2012)

Too many runners they need to bring the maximum down by at least 5 in my opinion - and I felt sick watching it today also and I have grown up with racing and ithas been a big part of my life .........


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## 3Beasties (14 April 2012)

lannerch said:



			What the hell was synchronised doing running such a hard race so soon after Cheltenham!
The equivalent of two badmingtons in little more than a month! Greedy greedy owners.
		
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Not helped by the fact that he dumped his jockey at the start and cantered about 2 miles before they even set off


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## Phoebe (14 April 2012)

I think today has finally done it for me. I had a bad feeling about it when McCoy came off and synchronised legged it. What a shame they caught him. Why race him again?!! Had he not earned enough?  I'm pretty disgusted really and I had the winner. After the start too?! What was that all about?! Why need them in a line with tape, it's not a 7 furlong sprint.

Racing, and all it's old gits needs to get up to date. It's not acceptable any more!!


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## ASBO Bob (14 April 2012)

i thought Clare Balding seemed upset too at the end, not sure if I was imagining things?!


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## 3Beasties (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			FWIW- I was very concerned that one of the jocks stayed down. I sincerely hope they are ok.   I'll confess, I am much more worried for fallen riders than I am for the horses.
		
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Everyone seems to forget about the Jockeys but at the end of the day the jockeys lifes are far more valuable then the horses  (And I know people will disagree with me on that one but there is no comparison between a human life and that of an animal IMO).


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## Shantara (14 April 2012)

ASBO Bob said:



			i thought Clare Balding seemed upset too at the end, not sure if I was imagining things?!
		
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I noticed too, there was certainly a waver in her voice. 
R.I.P Horsies


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2012)

Phoebe said:



			After the start too?! What was that all about?! Why need them in a line with tape, it's not a 7 furlong sprint.
		
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Well no, obviously. They'd be in the stalls if it was


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## Fools Motto (14 April 2012)

Making the jumps smaller won't work... they go faster.
Reducing the length of the race won't work - they go faster.
Reducing the field numbers may work - but how can you prove it? They can still go fast, still get tripped up and are still jumping the big fences. As it is, they spread themselves out accross the course and appear to give each other room. 
Making the sure the ''right qualified horses only enter'' - works until 'sods law' trips them up. Equally the same for the jockeys.

As far as I can tell, the only way of ''helping'' dampen the blow of fatalities is simply that - dampen it. Soften the ground, they will gallop slower because of it, and if they fall the ground helps. (not saying it will cure it - I doubt anything will). This spring has seen more fatalities on the flat than I care to remember. The going has generally been good, sometimes firm. Bloody sods law, hate it. No one is to blame for today.
Anyway, thats my thoughts.
Still feel desperatly sorry for all connections.


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## Honey08 (14 April 2012)

tractor said:



			It's the first year that I've really felt sad - both horses looked so well, and were focussed on heavily in the build up. 

I still like jump racing, but I am beginning to wonder why frequent horse deaths are "acceptable" in racing......if there were deaths every year at Badminton (for example) it would be cancelled or very heavily amended immediately......I don't understand why it's OK in racing.....

Thoughts to all involved with the two PTS, so very sad for you. xx
		
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Apart from the first sentence, I agree with all of this.  Why does the british public adore this race that always ends with animals dying?  I never understand it, generally the british are pro animals, but they seem to get swept up with the excitement of this race and not notice. The Grand National is somehow a british treasure, but I don't see what we are proud of really.   I've never enjoyed this race.  I think the horses are superstars, and the  course is fine, but there are too many racing IMHO.  Every years something seems to die, and more and more lately.  Not my kind of sport of entertainment.


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## BlizzardBudd (14 April 2012)

3Beasties said:



			I *think* the screen was up around a jockey 

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i thought that too, or would a jockey stay with their horse if they were down?


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2012)

3Beasties said:



			Everyone seems to forget about the Jockeys but at the end of the day the jockeys lifes are far more valuable then the horses  (And I know people will disagree with me on that one but there is no comparison between a human life and that of an animal IMO).
		
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Well, I certainly won't.

My heart was in my mouth for poor Ted and Katie when Ruby didn't jump straight up in the hurdles. Very please he is ok. There has been a jockey fatality in the National I think. Hopefully not this year though


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## Holly Hocks (14 April 2012)

Wagtail said:



			What about making the fences bigger again and running the race in groups of ten with either a final or fastest time wins. *dons tin hat*
		
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LOL!! Take the tin hat off - no need for that.
I understand what you're saying - but speed is part of the problem so a fastest time, even in a smaller field would have even worse consequences.  When the fences were bigger the riders went slower hence less fatalities.

People called for the race to be made safer, so the fences were made smaller, the landing side of some fences was raised, horses go faster, more horses get killed....


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## 3Beasties (14 April 2012)

Fools Motto said:



			Making the jumps smaller won't work... they go faster.
Reducing the length of the race won't work - they go faster.
Reducing the field numbers may work - but how can you prove it? They can still go fast, still get tripped up and are still jumping the big fences. As it is, they spread themselves out accross the course and appear to give each other room. 
Making the sure the ''right qualified horses only enter'' - works until 'sods law' trips them up. Equally the same for the jockeys.

As far as I can tell, the only way of ''helping'' dampen the blow of fatalities is simply that - dampen it. Soften the ground, they will gallop slower because of it, and if they fall the ground helps. (not saying it will cure it - I doubt anything will). This spring has seen more fatalities on the flat than I care to remember. The going has generally been good, sometimes firm. Bloody sods law, hate it. No one is to blame for today.
Anyway, thats my thoughts.
Still feel desperatly sorry for all connections.
		
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The voice of reason


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## Wagtail (14 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Up until now I just thought it was "one of those things" that just happens in jump racing. But your post really brought it home to me because it is spot on.

If it was Badminton, it would not be allowed to continue. If it was World Cup Show Jumping, it would not be allowed to continue. If it was Premier League Dressage ........  If it was any other horse sport at all, other than racing, killing horses almost every time it was run, it would be stopped.

And I now think  it should be.
		
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Or dogs.


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## joeanne (14 April 2012)

Wagtail said:



			What about making the fences bigger again and running the race in groups of ten with either a final or fastest time wins. *dons tin hat*
		
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I think a lot of the problems arose when the anti brigade and H&S started on about the size of the fences making the course unsafe.
The reality is the horses run faster at the now smaller fences and THIS is where the danger lies!


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## springtime13 (14 April 2012)

I think limit the race to 20 of the best. At least they shouldn't be bringing each other down.


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## Amymay (14 April 2012)

Very, very exciting race. Full of drama, and a fairy mail ending. Fantastic.


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## carthorse (14 April 2012)

ASBO Bob said:



			i thought Clare Balding seemed upset too at the end, not sure if I was imagining things?!
		
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She was upset because the BBC has lost the coverage. Terrible race, complete farce from start to finish.More horses will be pts this week. It could not happen in any other equine sport. Money and animals = cruelty


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## touchstone (14 April 2012)

I think one of the biggest dangers is from loose horses, in which case a smaller field has to have an impact and wouldn't making the ground heavier simply increase the chances of horses tiring so prone to making mistakes and straining tendons etc?  I'm far from an expert in racing though, so probably talking complete twaddle.


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## Holly Hocks (14 April 2012)

carthorse said:



			Money and animals = cruelty
		
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Are you a vegan then? Because you've included the farming industry in that sentence and if you don't agree with cruelty then I'm sure you don't use any animal products...


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## Montyforever (14 April 2012)

The jockeys go into that race knowing exactly what to expect, that they could be injured or die but they do it still (for the money I guess!) the horses have no idea of the risks and don't choose to do it  that's why I care slightly more about the horses than the jockeys in this case. 
Not saying the horses life is worth more, just that the jockeys know what they are getting into and the risks.


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## Amymay (14 April 2012)

Fairy tail.


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## Marydoll (14 April 2012)

3Beasties said:



			Everyone seems to forget about the Jockeys but at the end of the day the jockeys lifes are far more valuable then the horses  (And I know people will disagree with me on that one but there is no comparison between a human life and that of an animal IMO).
		
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The difference for me is jockeys make an informed choice to run in a very dangerous race, and by taking the ride, accept it, the horses dont.


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2012)

montyforever said:



			The jockeys go into that race knowing exactly what to expect, that they could be injured or die but they do it still (for the money I guess!) the horses have no idea of the risks and don't choose to do it  that's why I care slightly more about the horses than the jockeys in this case. 
Not saying the horses life is worth more, just that the jockeys know what they are getting into and the risks.
		
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You honestly care more about a horse than a person? You wouldn't be sadder if a jockey died than if a horse did? Really?

This country is absolutely barking.


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## china (14 April 2012)

Snycronised should not have run.... Selfish and greedy IMO


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## minesadouble (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			You honestly care more about a horse than a person? You wouldn't be sadder if a jockey died than if a horse did? Really?

This country is absolutely barking.
		
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Well said!!


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## ASBO Bob (14 April 2012)

touchstone said:



			I think one of the biggest dangers is from loose horses,
		
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i was very worried for the jockeys near the back of the field surrounded by so many loose horses, must be terrifying knowing that the loose horse could suddenly cut across your path in front of or after a fence.

is there any way to clear loose horses faster? i can't think of any but someone might know .. ?


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## ticobay831 (14 April 2012)

china said:



			Snycronised should not have run.... Selfish and greedy IMO
		
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Totally agree !!


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## 3Beasties (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			You honestly care more about a horse than a person? You wouldn't be sadder if a jockey died than if a horse did? Really?

This country is absolutely barking.
		
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This ^^^


A footballer collapsed and died today during a match, I'm sure there will damn sight less posts on here and FB as there will be about the loss of the two horses in the National.


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2012)

Phoebe said:



			Jesus. There are some idiots on here. It's a horse lovers site. 
Jesstickle. ***** off.
		
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If I were a button pusher you'd be banned right now.

7f sprints are flat races and flat races jump off out of the stalls. Jump races start behind a tape. I'm not sure why pointing that out to you means you have the right to swear at me tbh?


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## sleepingdragon10 (14 April 2012)

3Beasties said:



			Not helped by the fact that he dumped his jockey at the start and cantered about *2 miles* before they even set off 

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Not quite that far!

Tis amazingly said that the race resulted in the deaths of 2 horses, but I still love racing in general. The fences need to be BIGGER, that'd slow them down.


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## Girlracer (14 April 2012)

I've never watched it and never will, i don't get a lot of satisfaction out of watching horses die.


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## Marydoll (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			You honestly care more about a horse than a person? You wouldn't be sadder if a jockey died than if a horse did? Really?

This country is absolutely barking.
		
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I didnt read the posters comment like that, as their view is similar to mine, just saying the jockey knows theres a chance they could be killed or seriously injured taking part in the race, and therefore accept the risk, horses dont/cant.
I dont think anyone would say it should be a jockey rather than a horse, but most would hope neither, by reducing the risk for everyone


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## 3Beasties (14 April 2012)

ASBO Bob said:



			is there any way to clear loose horses faster? i can't think of any but someone might know .. ?
		
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As far as I know the track has been improved to include 'chutes' for the loose horses to run down, this only works if they choose to take them though and not continue with the rest of the field.


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## amandap (14 April 2012)

Phoebe said:



			I think today has finally done it for me. I had a bad feeling about it when McCoy came off and synchronised legged it. What a shame they caught him.
		
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Perhaps he knew something... 


Phoebe said:



			Racing, and all it's old gits needs to get up to date. It's not acceptable any more!!
		
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Agree. 

It's no longer a national treasure, it's a national disgrace.  

It's a joke we consider ourselves animal lovers. 

Reducing the field is the only option I can see that might help reduce the carnage.

As for jockeys... yes it is a shame they die but they chose to ride, the horses didn't! It's not a case of who is WORTH more it's a case of choice and informed consent!


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2012)

3Beasties said:



			This ^^^


A footballer collapsed and died today during a match, I'm sure there will damn sight less posts on here and FB as there will be about the loss of the two horses in the National. 

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Tragic isn't it? OH told me   Thoughts to his family. I think in Italy he will be getting all the tributes he deserves though. I hope so.


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## Holly Hocks (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			If I were a button pusher you'd be banned right now.

7f sprints are flat races and flat races jump off out of the stalls. Jump races start behind a tape. I'm not sure why pointing that out to you means you have the right to swear at me tbh?
		
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I'm not sure quite what you're supposed to have said to provoke such an aggressive response either!


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## vickyb (14 April 2012)

I watch a lot of racing and have seen many horse related accidents, but the most sickening thing I have seen is the accident to the jockey (was it Peter Toole? Can't quite remember) on grand national day last year when his horse landed on him and crushed him. He is still recovering. 
I think the falls are caused largely by the large fields though. Two previous races this week over the national course didn't produce any fatalities.


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## minesadouble (14 April 2012)

china said:



			Snycronised should not have run.... Selfish and greedy IMO
		
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The tragic death of Synchronised was somehow related to the fact he ran at Cheltenham in March???

Didn't Big Buck's also run at Cheltenham in March and have another record breaking victory at the same Aintree meeting where Synchronised was lost?

Talk about twisted logic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## albeg (14 April 2012)

3Beasties said:



			I *think* the screen was up around a jockey  

Does any one find it strange how they never really comment on how the jockeys are? Do we just have to assume that all are OK unless we hear otherwise?
		
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Hopefully the fact that nothing was said means it wasn't a jockey. 
But you're right, nothing was mentioned about any of the jockeys that fell...at least not while I was watching....and there doesn't seem to be any update so far.


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## touchstone (14 April 2012)

3Beasties said:



			This ^^^


A footballer collapsed and died today during a match, I'm sure there will damn sight less posts on here and FB as there will be about the loss of the two horses in the National. 

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I would never trivialise the loss of human life and wasn't aware that a footballer has died  

I don't watch football though and due to the fact that this is an equestrian forum you are bound to get more posts on equestrian relate items, I don't think that means we value human life any less though.

If it was a jockey that the screens were round, has anyone heard how he is?


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## Dancing Queen (14 April 2012)

I dislike this race as there are far too many runners and riders and there are far too many deaths, needless deaths for my liking.

I would never put my horses into a race/competition where i knew that there was a very strong chance they would be killed. Thats because i love my horses, some may argue as pets, but these racehorses are business and seen as business commodities. There probably is a fondness, maybe love from the stablehand and a fondness from the trainer, but not a true 'love'. 

Thats my opinion, yes there are deaths in many other equine sports, even in field, but to knowingly put your animal in that position is an entirely different matter.

The GN divides people, some love it, some hate it, some want it banned, some want it to remain a british treasure. 

What I want is peace for these beautiful animals that have lost their lives fulfilling their masters desire. I hope and pray that something is done with the race so that no more fatalities occur, i fear next time it maybe a jockey who loses his life.

RIP Beautiful ones xx


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## Bright_Spark (14 April 2012)

Very sad that Synchronised and According to Pete were PTS 

Some of those falls were horrible, espeically when you could see the jockeys getting trampled and horses being brought down by others 

However, I'm one who hates this side of racing, but don't think it should be banned, and despite the efforts to make it safer, horses still are killed. I do think it is to do with the numbers, but on the other hand, 2 horses fell in earlier races with only 4 or 5 in each race. 

For those wanting to compare racing with other sports- how many riders have been killed in eventing, yet no one seems to go on about that being banned? I guess I'm just saying I also agree with jesstickle!


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## Wagtail (14 April 2012)

ASBO Bob said:



			i was very worried for the jockeys near the back of the field surrounded by so many loose horses, must be terrifying knowing that the loose horse could suddenly cut across your path in front of or after a fence.

is there any way to clear loose horses faster? i can't think of any but someone might know .. ?
		
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Shoot them? would save time and effort later. 

No seriously, I feel especially sad that poor Syncronised tried to run off at the start. It's just awful. He should never have run.


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## 3Beasties (14 April 2012)

sleepingdragon10 said:



			Not quite that far!

Tis amazingly said that the race resulted in the deaths of 2 horses, but I still love racing in general. The fences need to be BIGGER, that'd slow them down.
		
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Well I'd have said it was more then a mile, obviously can't tell how far it was as I wasn't there 

I'm not against racing at all, but still find it sad when horses die. My comment about Syncronized wasn't in anyway bashing racing or the National in general! IMO he looked tired when he came back to the start, he was already blowing which can't be good ahead of a race like the National. It may not have changed anything but I can't help thinking it may have done.


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## Fools Motto (14 April 2012)

All jockeys ok and the other two horses' injuries are not thought to be life threatening.

Good news on that front.


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## Mike007 (14 April 2012)

Biggest mistake was reducing the size of the fences. If you watch very old footage, circa 1930 ,the race was far more spread out ,with riders not competing for a racing line but looking for a clear run at the fences. The softness of the fences now has created two distinct styles of jumping, the carefull leap over the top and the smash through it . This creates havoc on the run into the fences and in my opinion is a major factor in serious falls. The biggest problem way back,was the enthusiastic amateur who just wanted to get round,and didnt know when to pull up a tired horse. This is far less applicable now. Have a google for the 1925 grand national and watch the footage,you will see what I mean.(unfortunately you will also see two totaly unnecessary falls of tired beaten horses later)


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## letrec_fan (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			Tragic isn't it? OH told me   Thoughts to his family. I think in Italy he will be getting all the tributes he deserves though. I hope so.
		
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To be fair, lots of young people die every day from heart conditions  - I am sure he will get publicity as he is a footballer. We don't have posts and tributes to all those people, do we?


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## Wagtail (14 April 2012)

3Beasties said:



			This ^^^


A footballer collapsed and died today during a match, I'm sure there will damn sight less posts on here and FB as there will be about the loss of the two horses in the National. 

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It's a HORSE forum.


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## tallyho! (14 April 2012)

Awful. Again. 

Not to worry, the show must go on. Brand new Range Rovers to buy, brand new mansions to furnish, need the funds for the kids school.

It's only a horse.


How can anyone not be ashamed?


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## touchstone (14 April 2012)

Fools Motto said:



			All jockeys ok and the other two horses' injuries are not thought to be life threatening.

Good news on that front.
		
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Well that's good to hear at least.


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## 3Beasties (14 April 2012)

Wagtail said:



			It's a HORSE forum. 

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I am well aware of that hence my reference to FB as well


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## ASBO Bob (14 April 2012)

Fools Motto said:



			All jockeys ok and the other two horses' injuries are not thought to be life threatening.

Good news on that front.
		
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That's good  was concerned that jockeys  weren't being mentioned for more sinister reasons (notifying family etc. ) glad I am wrong


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## indie999 (14 April 2012)

When I was kid at home we had sweepstakes and the excitement it was Beechers brook? and another nasty one??cant remember I know THE CHAIR??. It was all exciting but I suppose when they get killed or injured out of sight out of mind.

In adult years been to races and it does remind me of gladiators! of Roman times. 
I went out today and couldnt be bothered to watch the merry go round. And when I see the women dressed as tarts I just couldnt be bothered to be honest. Like a circus. The women look like clowns.

If people criticise Appleby I cant see why if they think this is ok? Got grumpy in my old age obviously! But I get told the horses love it?


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## Wagtail (14 April 2012)

3Beasties said:



			I am well aware of that hence my reference to FB as well  

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Does the fact that a footballer died mean that people are not allowed to care about horses dying? Why does caring about horses dying and discussing it on a thread about the GN automatically mean that people don't care about the footballer? 

I always hate it when that card is pulled everytime people express sadness over animals dying. It doesn't mean they care more about animals than humans.


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## bryngelenponies (14 April 2012)

I didn't watch it- I never do but when I heard about the two fatalities I was deeply upset for them. I'm truly disgusted by the race, every year horses die and for what? 'Entertainment' and money?!


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2012)

I'm afraid I'm going to say something totally scandalous now

It _ is _ only a horse. 

There, I said it. They are replaceable. Even to me and I am very much an amateur with 'pets'

Whilst we have them we owe them a certain duty of care, to ensure they are fed and watered and kept as happy as possible, but ultimately they are possessions. I do things with my horse that may be considered dangerous by some (for example he is allowed to go hunting and XC which horrifies some people). He doesn't consent, he can't. He's a horse. If he breaks his neck, or his leg and I have to  have him shot then it is sad but not the end of the world.  I would replace him and do the same with the next one. His quality of life up to that point is what is important, not how he dies. 

I think perhaps I am very much in the minority on this forum as I don't see the problem with doing potentially dangerous things with horses, as long as you are willing to make difficult decisions as a result of that. 

Please feel free to send me hate mail, I won't even report you to TFC


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## Honey08 (14 April 2012)

The only reason nobody is talking about the footballer is because it was in Italy, and hasn't really been put out on the news here yet.  It will do, it is really sad, tragic, and shocking..  The reason everyone is talking about the National is it is something that practically the whole country watches...

Edited to say, perhaps its talked about more as it could perhaps have been prevented, whereas how do you prevent a young, fit footballer from having a heart attack..?  The footballer was a true, very sad accident..  The horses accidents were a bit contrived and almost likely..


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## Honeylight (14 April 2012)

The tragedy is in modifying the course to make it safer they have succeeded in making it much more of a risk to horses.
They made the fences smaller so the horses go faster. They reduced the drops so horses go faster, jockeys don't take a "pull" any more before Bechers.
They got rid of all the drop fences & made silly obstacles at Haydock Park so there is now no effective trial for trainers to accustom horses to drop fences.
They put in escape chutes that horses don't seem to want to use & in doing so made the fences more narrow causing more horses to be brought down.
The thing is what else can they do?
Make a longer run in to the first?
Water heavily the night before?
Reduce the field size?
Make fences bigger again? 
Cancel it all together?
My money is on the last option.
I feel gutted after seeing those horses lose their lives & I have been following racing at least 45 years.
Clare was upset because she had been to According To Pete's stable & spent the day with his owners.
My heart goes out to all the people who knew the two horses well. Hope Weird Al recovers.


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## milesjess (14 April 2012)

I think the same thread pops up every year when the national is run...

Personally, when I was younger I loved it, now I'm older I don't particulary enjoy it and feel nervous watching the race. I cringe whenever a horse falls down whether it's the national, cheltenham, badminton, showjumping etc... 

I dont agree or disagree with it. The way I see it is that the race will be run regardless every year no matter how many horses die because they'll just amend the safety as best as they can to try to justify it and it's so traditional that there would be an uproar. However I love seeing these horses doing what they love, fit and at their peak. 

I have no doubt in my mind that the loses from today hit all the horses connections hard.

But the main thing is that they now RIP and are never forgotten and that the others horses injured make a full recovery.


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## dressagelove (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I'm afraid I'm going to say something totally scandalous now

It _ is _ only a horse. 

There, I said it. They are replaceable. Even to me and I am very much an amateur with 'pets'

Whilst we have them we owe them a certain duty of care, to ensure they are fed and watered and kept as happy as possible, but ultimately they are possessions. I do things with my horse that may be considered dangerous by some (for example he is allowed to go hunting and XC which horrifies some people). He doesn't consent, he can't. He's a horse. If he breaks his neck, or his leg and I have to  have him shot then it is sad but not the end of the world.  I would replace him and do the same with the next one. His quality of life up to that point is what is important, not how he dies. 

I think perhaps I am very much in the minority on this forum as I don't see the problem with doing potentially dangerous things with horses, as long as you are willing to make difficult decisions as a result of that. 

Please feel free to send me hate mail, I won't even report you to TFC
		
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The point is at the end of the day, the horses DO NOT choose to do it. They are herd animals and the national is making money out of utilising the herd instinct, pushing them harder and harder. As more intelligent beings we should not even put other animals in the position.


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## indie999 (14 April 2012)

Money is the motive too and the footballer chose to do football, he didnt have to do it. Animals dont choose what we choose for them. Thats the difference.

Its greed and money too.


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## SusannaF (14 April 2012)

Let's be honest.


Animals die for the entertainment of most of the people on this forum.

They are turned into shoes we don't need, into leather saddles we don't need, into food for cats and dogs that we don't need to keep either.

We're *all* greedy. Greedy for those shoes or for our pet cat to cuddle. We're all implicated.


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## Natch (14 April 2012)

Thanks fools motto 

I'm through with the national now, that will be the last time I watch it.


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## WelshTilly (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I'm afraid I'm going to say something totally scandalous now

It _ is _ only a horse. 

There, I said it. They are replaceable. Even to me and I am very much an amateur with 'pets'

Whilst we have them we owe them a certain duty of care, to ensure they are fed and watered and kept as happy as possible, but ultimately they are possessions. I do things with my horse that may be considered dangerous by some (for example he is allowed to go hunting and XC which horrifies some people). He doesn't consent, he can't. He's a horse. If he breaks his neck, or his leg and I have to  have him shot then it is sad but not the end of the world.  I would replace him and do the same with the next one. His quality of life up to that point is what is important, not how he dies. 

I think perhaps I am very much in the minority on this forum as I don't see the problem with doing potentially dangerous things with horses, as long as you are willing to make difficult decisions as a result of that. 

Please feel free to send me hate mail, I won't even report you to TFC
		
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Well said ... I couldn't of put it better myself


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## sally259 (14 April 2012)

It is very sad when horses are killed in racing ... any race, but there wouldn't be any racehorses if people didn't race them.  The death of Syncronized, especially, is going to be 'publicity gold' for the animal rights protesters.


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## tallyho! (14 April 2012)

The GN brings out the true colours of some people.


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## murphysmummy (14 April 2012)

But do they choose to be ridden or choose to jump brightly coloured poles or choose to do piaffe? Don't turn this into a its not natural post! Horses are honest and they are kind and they will do what is asked of them and what they are trained to do. They don't always have a choice x


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2012)

SusannaF said:



			Let's be honest.


Animals die for the entertainment of most of the people on this forum.

They are turned into shoes we don't need, into leather saddles we don't need, into food for cats and dogs that we don't need to keep either.

We're *all* greedy. Greedy for those shoes or for our pet cat to cuddle. We're all implicated.
		
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I wish I had your eloquence. That is what, I very clumsily, wanted to say. There are reasons  you are a published writer and I am not


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## Fools Motto (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I'm afraid I'm going to say something totally scandalous now

It _ is _ only a horse. 

There, I said it. They are replaceable. Even to me and I am very much an amateur with 'pets'

Whilst we have them we owe them a certain duty of care, to ensure they are fed and watered and kept as happy as possible, but ultimately they are possessions. I do things with my horse that may be considered dangerous by some (for example he is allowed to go hunting and XC which horrifies some people). He doesn't consent, he can't. He's a horse. If he breaks his neck, or his leg and I have to  have him shot then it is sad but not the end of the world.  I would replace him and do the same with the next one. His quality of life up to that point is what is important, not how he dies. 

I think perhaps I am very much in the minority on this forum as I don't see the problem with doing potentially dangerous things with horses, as long as you are willing to make difficult decisions as a result of that. 

Please feel free to send me hate mail, I won't even report you to TFC
		
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What you have said here is very true. 
Sad as it is, the show will go on. The race, as cruel as some see it, will go on. The general public will always see 'the headlines' , sometimes sad, often happy. The general concesus on this forum hate horse deaths, particually those in the lime light. But it happens.


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## Wagtail (14 April 2012)

Naturally said:



			Thanks fools motto 

I'm through with the national now, that will be the last time I watch it. 

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Ten years ago I stopped betting on the GN. I felt too guilty waging money on something where horses were likely to lose their lives. But I still watched it. I loved it. Couldn't stop myself. Then every year I got more and more nervous in the build up and realised I was actually only watching to will them all to get around safely. Two years ago I stopped watching and will never watch it again. I have no desire to witness horses dying, live, in real time before my eyes. I don't know what the answer is. It's an institution. People's livelihoods are dependent on it...but I have to say that I think it is morally wrong.


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## Always Henesy (14 April 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Ten years ago I stopped betting on the GN. I felt too guilty waging money on something where horses were likely to lose their lives. But I still watched it. I loved it. Couldn't stop myself. Then every year I got more and more nervous in the build up and realised I was actually only watching to will them all to get around safely. Two years ago I stopped watching and will never watch it again. I have no desire to witness horses dying, live, in real time before my eyes. I don't know what the answer is. It's an institution. People's livelihoods are dependent on it...but I have to say that I think it is morally wrong. 

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Agree totally with this ^^^^
That is exactly what I would have posted.


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## dressagelove (14 April 2012)

murphysmummy said:



			But do they choose to be ridden or choose to jump brightly coloured poles or choose to do piaffe? Don't turn this into a its not natural post! Horses are honest and they are kind and they will do what is asked of them and what they are trained to do. They don't always have a choice x
		
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No I disagree, a jockey and a racehorse a rarely a partnership. He is a hired body who has perhaps sat on the horse once or twice before. The fact is they are using herd instinct to make the horses race. 

Does anybody truly believe that if you sent a single horse around that course one by one they would do it? Of course they wouldn't, they would jack it in at the first fence, or second if they were really bold. The only reason those horses keep going is herd instinct.

Dressage horses usually have very deep connections and trust in their riders, trained over years and years. As do other equestrian sports etc.


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## indie999 (14 April 2012)

SusannaF said:



			Let's be honest.


Animals die for the entertainment of most of the people on this forum.

They are turned into shoes we don't need, into leather saddles we don't need, into food for cats and dogs that we don't need to keep either.

We're *all* greedy. Greedy for those shoes or for our pet cat to cuddle. We're all implicated.
		
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You are right in the grand scheme of things some are essential requirements of existence ie food probably being the main one, but some die for our luxury and pleasure. Its having a bit of compassion and welfare? Not everyone is as ignorant or selfish, but quite a few are.


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## SusannaF (14 April 2012)

indie999 said:



			You are right in the grand scheme of things some are essential requirements of existence ie food probably being the main one, but some die for our luxury and pleasure. Its having a bit of compassion and welfare? Not everyone is as ignorant or selfish, but quite a few are.
		
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In the era we live in, we don't have to eat animals or wear them. There are other things to eat and other materials to wear. We don't need to keep pets either.


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## catwithclaws (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I'm afraid I'm going to say something totally scandalous now

It _ is _ only a horse. 

There, I said it. They are replaceable. Even to me and I am very much an amateur with 'pets'

Whilst we have them we owe them a certain duty of care, to ensure they are fed and watered and kept as happy as possible, but ultimately they are possessions. I do things with my horse that may be considered dangerous by some (for example he is allowed to go hunting and XC which horrifies some people). He doesn't consent, he can't. He's a horse. If he breaks his neck, or his leg and I have to  have him shot then it is sad but not the end of the world.  I would replace him and do the same with the next one. His quality of life up to that point is what is important, not how he dies. 

I think perhaps I am very much in the minority on this forum as I don't see the problem with doing potentially dangerous things with horses, as long as you are willing to make difficult decisions as a result of that. 

Please feel free to send me hate mail, I won't even report you to TFC
		
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i have to be scandalous as well, as i agree with u.

it is very very sad that these horses have died, i don't think anyone would dispute that. however i don't agree with 'the horses have not consented to run' card. horses do not consent to go in and do a show jumping round, cross country round, dressage test. 

yet most of us do some form of 'dangerous' riding. if these horses are 'forced' to race, does this mean that after one refusal show jumping, we should retire? because our horse has not 'consented' to jump the fence?? or should we allow our horses to turn round out hacking and run back to the yard, because they didn't 'consent' to walk past the scary plastic bag in the hedge??

unfortunately i agree that horses are replaceable, i don't mind nasty comments as it is only my opinion and i'm not saying everyone should feel the same

after all, wouldn't it be boring if we were all the same?


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## horseluver4eva (14 April 2012)

the grand national shouldnt even be allowed. it is a act of cruelty that no body seems to realise. people say horses obviously like it because they carry on running when somebody falls, no in fact its because thats what they were trained for. i think it was 2 horse that died last year all for a bloody race, are animals lives and feelings not taken into consideration? their lives are worth just as much as ours and the course is horrendous. i no longer watch the grand national as all they are doing is pushing the horses to their limit. a jockey once hit a horse so hard whilst racing its heart burst, so that shows they go to great lengths to win and the horses to please those on their back. people cant abuse their animals, well in my eyes the grand national is nothing but a day filled with abuse. summing it up.... a innocent life is taken for entertainment purposes. because that sounds fair doesnt it...
rant over


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## cptrayes (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I do things with my horse that may be considered dangerous by some (for example he is allowed to go hunting and XC which horrifies some people). He doesn't consent, he can't. He's a horse. If he breaks his neck, or his leg and I have to  have him shot then it is sad but not the end of the world.  I would replace him and do the same with the next one. His quality of life up to that point is what is important, not how he dies. 

I think perhaps I am very much in the minority on this forum as I don't see the problem with doing potentially dangerous things with horses, as long as you are willing to make difficult decisions as a result of that. 

Please feel free to send me hate mail, I won't even report you to TFC
		
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Jess if two or three horses out of thirty died every week you went hunting, and two or three horses in every section of every BE event died on the cross country -

- would you still go if the event was allowed to be held?

- and if you would not still go (I'm a risk taker but I wouldn't accept those odds for my horses) do you think those events should still be run?

Please remember when you answer that it would mean a typical BE event with eight sections a day with c35 runners in each section would have an average of 20 horse deaths PER DAY.


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## lachlanandmarcus (14 April 2012)

The race has become less safe the smaller and more straightforward the fences have been made. In addition, the raising of the rating bar for horses to enter and the increase in prize money along with the ground not being the safer bottomless mud means that faster horses are entered and in the faster ground that comes into play and when they fall they dont slide they break.

I would like to see the National fences restored to their original height so horses HAVE to slow down as they come to them, the 'chutes' reviewed as I think they cause just as many accidents by loose horses being able to keep up for longer as they duck round each fence and rejoin the pack going at great speed, and the numbers reduced to 30. 

I also would like a stipulation that the race will only ever take place in at least good to soft conditions with some soft patches or muddier.

According to Pete was especially unlucky I think being brought down. I was very surprised to see Synchronised being run in it so soon after the Gold Cup and I think that was an unfair ask of the horse.

I love the race but unless the authorities have to guts to say actually smaller fences are NOT safer they are more dangerous I fear its days are numbered and unless they bite that bullet and can win that argument I think it may not run forever.


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## dressagelove (14 April 2012)

catwithclaws said:



			i have to be scandalous as well, as i agree with u.

it is very very sad that these horses have died, i don't think anyone would dispute that. however i don't agree with 'the horses have not consented to run' card. horses do not consent to go in and do a show jumping round, cross country round, dressage test. 

yet most of us do some form of 'dangerous' riding. if these horses are 'forced' to race, does this mean that after one refusal show jumping, we should retire? because our horse has not 'consented' to jump the fence?? or should we allow our horses to turn round out hacking and run back to the yard, because they didn't 'consent' to walk past the scary plastic bag in the hedge??

unfortunately i agree that horses are replaceable, i don't mind nasty comments as it is only my opinion and i'm not saying everyone should feel the same

after all, wouldn't it be boring if we were all the same? 

Click to expand...

There's so many errors in your post I can't even begin to address it.


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## diluteherd (14 April 2012)

Before I say anything I think thoughts should be with the stable girls and boys the ones who spent the most time with the horses that had to be put to sleep.

May Synchronise and According to Pete rest in peace. 

I dont know a lot about racing, Ive been round a few places with a vet in newmarket and all I can say is how gobsmacked I was seeing the yards they live in. I do believe though if a horse doesnt want to race it wont race or put its all into the race and those are the ones that end up being rehomed or at the meat man. 

Sync. shouldnt have run, in the saddling up area that was a horse in completely the wrong mind frame and then dumping his rider.. there were signs all to clearly ignored by those responsible for him. 

I thought the whole race was a mess with the starting line f'up. Those horses were ready to go twice.. the adrenaline in riders and horses was pumping and I dont think that did them any favours when it came to the race... adrenaline can be amazing but also it can be leathal to performance. 

I personally would go back over the years the GN has been run, compare fallers, faltalities, what was different with the races who had the least fallers to the ones that had the most.. what has changed between them? 

Racing will go on, too much money in it, i provides so many jobs and so many businesses rely on such a large percentage of the racing industry for their annual turn over.

For the horses sake though.. I firmly believe the numbers could be looked at being cut back. But I also think as a whole the breeding of TBs has got to be looked at. Yes great sports animals but taking the welfare of the animals into account and their life after the track, perhaps breeding so they are more hardier (i know there are the odd one that lives on nothing) could be a starting point. There are too many that get bought by novices who dont know how to cater for a TB and just cant look after them then they end up as neglect cases. Also in a perfect world the race yards could look at spending a month or two putting them through rehab so they are a more 'all-round' horse ready to be bought and made into a riding horse. The breed is hugely versatile  and it is a shame to see so many go to waste. 

I think as a whole though not a lot will change we are very tiny fish in a great big sea of sharks, like a lot of industries that use animals for financial gain the animals will always be the brunt.


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## amandap (14 April 2012)

tallyho! said:



			The GN brings out the true colours of some people.
		
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Just what I was thinking. 



diluteherd said:



			I think as a whole though not a lot will change we are very tiny fish in a great big sea of sharks, like a lot of industries that use animals for financial gain the animals will always be the brunt.
		
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Sadly I agree... as long as horses are considered somehow less than us, of little value except in a monetary sense and as disposable 'items', there is no hope for us.


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## Moggy in Manolos (14 April 2012)

Wagtail said:



			But I still watched it. I loved it. Couldn't stop myself. Then every year I got more and more nervous in the build up and realised I was actually only watching to will them all to get around safely.
		
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I have to say, I get more and more emotional watching it, willing the horses and jockeys to get round safe. Today was tragic and we do need to do more to stop this, what exactly I do not know. I do think and have thought for some years that the numbers are too high. It was carnage out there today, way way too many fallers. These beautiful animals try their hearts out for us and it can be all over for them moments later, very sad. I may not watch it again, much as I feel compelled to I found myself in a bit of a high emotional state watching today, a kind of stressed emotional state. Let us hope that they can come up with a solution to this and prevent further deaths for all racing, not just the highest profile ones


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## Alec Swan (14 April 2012)

I love jump racing,  and I'm passionate about The National,  but this afternoons fiasco,  was a disgraceful display of total incompetence,  at the start.

AP fell from his horse,  the whole field was geed up,  getting cold and waiting around was doing little to calm horses or riders,  the tape attaching system looked like it had been designed by a group of boy scouts,  the struggle to re-attach it did little to calm the nerves of the waiting jockeys,  and as for the safety improvements to the course,  they worked,  didn't they?

I'm not involved in racing,  I never have been,  and I'm more than happy to be corrected by the experienced.

Question 1.  Over a course of 4.5 miles,  what is the point of a starters tap?  To be certain of a level start?  That's the responsibility of the jockey.

Question 2.  5-10 years ago,  the starts at the Grand Prixs,  were always a dash to the first corner,  with predictable results.  F1 drivers have learned that it's generally a 50+ lap race.  Jockeys need to learn that the National is a very long,  the longest race,  and look at the replays,  and see where the first 4 horses came from,  way back in the field,  so as...

Question 3.  why is being in the very best position at the first fence so vital.

Racing is doing little to help itself,  I'm sorry to say.

Well done to the winner,  a brilliant ride.

Alec.


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## dressagelove (14 April 2012)

horseluver4eva said:



			summing it up.... a innocent life is taken for entertainment purposes.
		
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Exactly. When all is said and done, this is the definition.


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## gambia4life (14 April 2012)

ill be honest have never ever watched this cruelty and never ever would!
 why it hasnt been banned i really dont know, far to many horses take part and this leads to falls some fatal

RIP Synchronised and According to Pete xx


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## Tamba (14 April 2012)

dressagelove said:



			No I disagree, a jockey and a racehorse a rarely a partnership. He is a hired body who has perhaps sat on the horse once or twice before. The fact is they are using herd instinct to make the horses race. 

Does anybody truly believe that if you sent a single horse around that course one by one they would do it? Of course they wouldn't, they would jack it in at the first fence, or second if they were really bold. The only reason those horses keep going is herd instinct.

Dressage horses usually have very deep connections and trust in their riders, trained over years and years. As do other equestrian sports etc.
		
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Agree with this ^^^^, As an animal lover, personally I HATE this race in particular.
I dont feel that horse should have run today, it should have been disqualified from even starting, especially after the jockey having a fall just prior.
I WISH so much this event is cancelled and today is another example of carnage and upset.
I, myself felt sick after hearing about the fatalities today, poor horses. What a terrible shame.


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## gambia4life (14 April 2012)

dressagelove said:



			Exactly. When all is said and done, this is the definition.
		
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totally agree,  all about the money


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## touchstone (14 April 2012)

MoggyinManolos said:



			I have to say, I get more and more emotional watching it, willing the horses and jockeys to get round safe. Today was tragic and we do need to do more to stop this, what exactly I do not know. I do think and have thought for some years that the numbers are too high. It was carnage out there today, way way too many fallers. These beautiful animals try their hearts out for us and it can be all over for them moments later, very sad. I may not watch it again, much as I feel compelled to I found myself in a bit of a high emotional state watching today, a kind of stressed emotional state. Let us hope that they can come up with a solution to this and prevent further deaths for all racing, not just the highest profile ones
		
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^^^Ditto this.


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## Auslander (14 April 2012)

The screens at the 21st fence were up for Noel Fehily, who was unseated the first time round. He's been taken to hospital with a broken leg. Relieved it wasn't more serious.


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## Montyforever (14 April 2012)

I'm not saying anyone has to agree with my opinion as it is my opinion!
Yes there are risking in show jumping/eventing ect even hacking these days but the risks are so much lower.


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## LadyRascasse (14 April 2012)

tinuviel said:



			I love racing and the GN but today I didn't enjoy it, when I saw them bypass the fence my heart sank and I kinda hoped it was a winded horse or a jockey down but it was the worst possible news.  I find it harder and harder each year to justify the GN even though I love it for the great sporting spectacle that it is.

Thought I heard Weird Al was also getting treatment, anyone hear anything or is he okay?

RIP Synchronised and According to Pete xx
		
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The bypassing of the fence was an injured jockey not horse, Very sad to hear about the 2 horses. I had this horrible feeling about synchronised before the race I didn't think he would make it round. Very very sad day for According to Pete and connections as a home breed it was the most moving VT I had seen in a long time.

I feel making the fences smaller just makes the race dangerous as they will go quicker. I do feel its time for a smaller field and perhaps even a couple of shorter qualifying races over those fences earlier in the season to make sure the horses are capable of the task.


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## A Guilding (14 April 2012)

I have grown up and worked around some of the old Jockeys, they used to say you need a jumper to win the National, now you need a race horse.
In my youth I would of lined up on any horse and been enthusiastic about its chances. I think now the race has had its day and killing good horses is no longer acceptable .


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## Marydoll (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I'm afraid I'm going to say something totally scandalous now

It _ is _ only a horse. 

There, I said it. They are replaceable. Even to me and I am very much an amateur with 'pets'

Whilst we have them we owe them a certain duty of care, to ensure they are fed and watered and kept as happy as possible, but ultimately they are possessions. I do things with my horse that may be considered dangerous by some (for example he is allowed to go hunting and XC which horrifies some people). He doesn't consent, he can't. He's a horse. If he breaks his neck, or his leg and I have to  have him shot then it is sad but not the end of the world.  I would replace him and do the same with the next one. His quality of life up to that point is what is important, not how he dies. 

I think perhaps I am very much in the minority on this forum as I don't see the problem with doing potentially dangerous things with horses, as long as you are willing to make difficult decisions as a result of that. 

Please feel free to send me hate mail, I won't even report you to TFC
		
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Youre entitled to your opinion, but " its only a horse" in my opinion  thats a disgusting comment coming from someone who professes to care for horses


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## Madam Min (14 April 2012)

[QUOTEI would like to see the National fences restored to their original height so horses HAVE to slow down as they come to them, the 'chutes' reviewed as I think they cause just as many accidents by loose horses being able to keep up for longer as they duck round each fence and rejoin the pack going at great speed, and the numbers reduced to 30. [/QUOTE]

I agree, they need to reduce the field and perhaps larger fences would slow them down.

My heart goes out to all concerned with Syncronized and According to Pete, RIP xx


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## horseluver4eva (14 April 2012)

catwithclaws  i cannot believe what you are saying, horses are not replaceable!!!!! if you had/have a child are they replaceable?...no so whats the difference with a horse. horses trust you with their life, they run to please you, they believe that you will keep them safe and each individual horse has their own attitudes, personalitys and ways. no horse is the same, the same with people. people who say they love it, i know thats your opinions and im sorry if i offend you but basically you are watching horses die and suffering.


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## mle22 (14 April 2012)

I really feel for owners of According to Pete - I don't think he was 'just a horse' to them


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## monkeybum13 (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I'm afraid I'm going to say something totally scandalous now

It _ is _ only a horse. 

There, I said it. They are replaceable. Even to me and I am very much an amateur with 'pets'

Whilst we have them we owe them a certain duty of care, to ensure they are fed and watered and kept as happy as possible, but ultimately they are possessions. I do things with my horse that may be considered dangerous by some (for example he is allowed to go hunting and XC which horrifies some people). He doesn't consent, he can't. He's a horse. If he breaks his neck, or his leg and I have to  have him shot then it is sad but not the end of the world.  I would replace him and do the same with the next one. His quality of life up to that point is what is important, not how he dies. 

I think perhaps I am very much in the minority on this forum as I don't see the problem with doing potentially dangerous things with horses, as long as you are willing to make difficult decisions as a result of that. 

Please feel free to send me hate mail, I won't even report you to TFC
		
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Very well put jesstickle.


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## Moggy in Manolos (14 April 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			I love jump racing,  and I'm passionate about The National,  but this afternoons fiasco,  was a disgraceful display of total incompetence,  at the start.

AP fell from his horse,  the whole field was geed up,  getting cold and waiting around was doing little to calm horses or riders,  the tape attaching system looked like it had been designed by a group of boy scouts,  the struggle to re-attach it did little to calm the nerves of the waiting jockeys,  and as for the safety improvements to the course,  they worked,  didn't they?

I'm not involved in racing,  I never have been,  and I'm more than happy to be corrected by the experienced.

Question 1.  Over a course of 4.5 miles,  what is the point of a starters tap?  To be certain of a level start?  That's the responsibility of the jockey.

Question 2.  5-10 years ago,  the starts at the Grand Prixs,  were always a dash to the first corner,  with predictable results.  F1 drivers have learned that it's generally a 50+ lap race.  Jockeys need to learn that the National is a very long,  the longest race,  and look at the replays,  and see where the first 4 horses came from,  way back in the field,  so as...

Question 3.  why is being in the very best position at the first fence so vital.

Racing is doing little to help itself,  I'm sorry to say.

Well done to the winner,  a brilliant ride.

Alec.
		
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Some very good points indeed Alec


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## horseluver4eva (14 April 2012)

ditto to what i said before to jesstickle. i am appalled at that comment, horses are living things with feelings. im sure you wouldnt like to be in that position so what would make a horse want to be


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## tallyho! (14 April 2012)

A Guilding said:



			I think now the race has had its day and killing good horses is no longer acceptable .
		
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Well said.


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## diluteherd (14 April 2012)

murphysmummy said:



			But do they choose to be ridden or choose to jump brightly coloured poles or choose to do piaffe? Don't turn this into a its not natural post! Horses are honest and they are kind and they will do what is asked of them and what they are trained to do. They don't always have a choice x
		
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^^ This is also what I wanted to say but couldnt put the words together.. 

Horses are kind, even though Im sure a lot of you with the biters, rearers, buckers, general ASBO horses and ponies will disagree.

I dont get saddened by racing, or any horse sport, other than rodeo.. stupid american sport. Horses through out thousands and thousands of years have always and will always be there for us, whether it be taking a soldier into war, amazing us with elegence, pulling a plough, working in mines, giving a disabled child the biggest grin you will see, the list is endless!

What saddens me is when people do look upon them as just a horse. They are not just horses without these horses I cant see how we would be where we are today. The are truely the most amazing creature and I think a lot of this is forgotten. They take pleasure having a purpose no matter what the task and we should give them credit.. all this arguing over right and wrong, remember the soles of the horses who were happy doing what they did, whatever their role and prey for the ones neglected and forgotten as those are the ones that need the time spent on them.


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## Tinseltoes (14 April 2012)

I didnt watch it as I can't stand seeing the horses getting hurt.Too many horses get hurt and die.


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## Pale Rider (14 April 2012)

A few more deaths on the alter of entertainment, competition, ambition and greed, absolutely disgusting, contempt for all those involved.


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## SO1 (14 April 2012)

I having been reading the posts and thinking about this, yes it is a risky race and it is really sad two horses have been PTS. However a lot of horses also get injured just hooning around in the field, however careful people are horses do get injured both in sporting activities or just through being a horse.

Getting rid of the GN will not reduce the number of premature deaths in race horses you just won't see it on telly in such a dramatic way. I think the worst thing about racing is the disposability of race horses not just ones PTS in the race but those who are not profitable or are unable to race due to injury. I wonder what will happen to those that were injured in the race but did not have life threatening injuries if they can't race again.


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## misterjinglejay (14 April 2012)

I'm not sure what the stats are for the Velká pardubická; I watch this every year, and there doesn't seem to be as much carnage, or as many fatalities (this is only based on what they show on telly, so I might have missed that bit!).

It seems to have as many runners, and is over a similar distance.

I cant find any info on fatalities, during or after, the race; other than the obvious terrain and fence differences, what else contributes to the, apparent, success?


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## tallyho! (14 April 2012)

diluteherd said:



			^^ This is also what I wanted to say but couldnt put the words together.. 

Horses are kind, even though Im sure a lot of you with the biters, rearers, buckers, general ASBO horses and ponies will disagree.

I dont get saddened by racing, or any horse sport, other than rodeo.. stupid american sport. Horses through out thousands and thousands of years have always and will always be there for us, whether it be taking a soldier into war, amazing us with elegence, pulling a plough, working in mines, giving a disabled child the biggest grin you will see, the list is endless!

What saddens me is when people do look upon them as just a horse. They are not just horses without these horses I cant see how we would be where we are today. The are truely the most amazing creature and I think a lot of this is forgotten. They take pleasure having a purpose no matter what the task and we should give them credit.. all this arguing over right and wrong, remember the soles of the horses who were happy doing what they did, whatever their role and prey for the ones neglected and forgotten as those are the ones that need the time spent on them.
		
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That is what gets me too!!!!! People who say "it's JUST a horse"...


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## Shantara (14 April 2012)

I think I'm going to hang out at the dog forum until all this blows over...this is getting a bit much.


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## Lizzie66 (14 April 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Question 3.  why is being in the very best position at the first fence so vital.
Alec.
		
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One of the reasons the Jockeys try to reach the front first is to enable them to avoid the the possibility of being brought down by a faller in front of them.

With regard to Synchronised running so soon after the Gold Cup, he fell at the 5th fence on the first lap, when he ditched AP he had a gentle canter for no more than half a mile. These horses are trained "athletes" he would have been plenty fit enough, and if not then AP would have pulled him up when he started to tire. Running in the GC was not the reason he fell, nor was the "running off" at the beginning, so why make comments like this that will be hurtful to the owners. 

The society we live in now seems to be all about not taking risks, where we care more about a horse that has sadly been killed doing a sport that it enjoyed (you might force a horse to do something, but if it doesn't enjoy it then it won't be very good at it) than we do about the people around us.

Jesstickle had it right we should ensure that whilst we have ownership/care of an animal then we should ensure that it has the best of care but that should not stop us from partaking in activities that carry a risk. If we did then I suggest that no one should hack their horse on roads ever again, as it is far too dangerous !


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## Tamba (14 April 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			A few more deaths on the alter of entertainment, competition, ambition and greed, absolutely disgusting, contempt for all those involved.
		
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 totally agree, in my opinion , this is my opinion , it shoud be stopped,if it had been two jockeys, it would be stopped.


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## christine48 (14 April 2012)

springtime13 said:



			I think limit the race to 20 of the best. At least they shouldn't be bringing each other down.
		
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I think they should limit the field to no more than 25 of the best. It was awful seeing horses and jockeys being battered, stood on ab
Nd banged into. Synchronised's fall didn't look as bad as some of the others and in was so shocked to hear he'd had to be put down. It was awful seeing the fallers getting stood on and kicked around by following horses.
If I owned a racehorse I don't think I'd run it in the national.


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## indie999 (14 April 2012)

I am glad I went out today and didnt listen or watch this barbarism...certain death....

One question have we had a GN where they all lived?


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## PolarSkye (14 April 2012)

What do I think?  I think I wish I hadn't watched it to be honest.  It was carnage.  Again.  I'm not against racing (well, not NH - don't get me started on flat racing) . . . but I do think this particular race needs to be changed somehow.  Fewer runners would be a good start.  And from what I can tell, lowering the fences just makes the horses go faster.  

To summarize . . . I think it's very sad.  For the horses, for their connections, for the jockeys.  And it just seems somehow unnecessary.  

P


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## Jake10 (14 April 2012)

Random question, as I don't know a lot about racing/betting. Do bets placed on horses that are either injured or die during a race get refunded? If they aren't perhaps they should be. It might encourage racing to be made safer, even if it's only made safer to reduce the loss of income at least it would be safer for both horse and jockey.


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## Auslander (14 April 2012)

blazingsaddles said:



			Yo!, I don't give a *****, I've just won £3300 on Neptunes Collonges. Wish I'd put more down now, but stuff it, there's always another race. I've already decided what I'm spending my winnings on, my friends wil be envious and that's worth much more than a horses life.

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Hilarious. I thought my sense of humour was inappropriate, but...


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## amage (14 April 2012)

There were 37 event riders killed between 1997 and 2008 with 18 of these occurring between 06 & 08. How many horses were killed & severely injured in that period I don't know. If eventing was on tv every day of the week it would be banned by now due to loss of human life. I am not against eventing but things are all relative. It is horrific those horses died but people claim eventing is not as bad yet there is a far higher incidence of human death/ severe injury than in racing. The field by rights should be reduced or a specific qualification system put in place. A reduction to 30 would see an improvement but equally nothing is certain! Public outcry has caused fences to be lowered and thus much quicker speeds causing more trouble. I really feel for the owners particularly the McManus's. The incredible excitement of being in the photo finish, the disappointment at being beaten but the thrill that their horse ran a stormer to finish a Super second and then the. Red filtering back that their other runner lost his life and as such they were stuck there to go through formalities with the placed horse and as such cannot dwell on the loss until after when the cameras are gone, the public are gone and they are in private. Yet they are labelled cruel and uncaring. It fascinates me that people thing we are all involved in racing for the money....the love of horses, the thrill, the pride when your horse runs...even when he runs below par but he still tries his hardest so you are thrilled with him, the rare days that have you on top of the world, the lifelong friends...that is why we are in the sport. But sure what would I know...I'm only involved in the sport rather than being a hurler on the ditch who makes highly inaccurate presumptions


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## TicTac (14 April 2012)

blazingsaddles said:



			Yo!, I don't give a *****, I've just won £3300 on Neptunes Collonges. Wish I'd put more down now, but stuff it, there's always another race. I've already decided what I'm spending my winnings on, my friends wil be envious and that's worth much more than a horses life.

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You mean you've got friends?


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## Mike007 (14 April 2012)

Merry Crisis said:



			A long time ago when the National had huge fences, before all the modifications, the horses that ran in the race were National Hunt horses, they were more like middle weights. We had NH stallions to put on our substantial mares, not many "dual pupose" stallions about then, some could have up to 9ins of bone. They were not speed machines they had staminer and the differance between chaser and flat horse was clear to anyone with a pair of eyes. The course was a fair test, the pace was slower and they hacked into the fences got into the bottom of them and jumped. Sadly we have now a Park type course with 40 runners all going flat out. I dont think we will see less carnage all the time we have horses racing in the GN that are flat bred.
		
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A good point,well made!


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## Dab (14 April 2012)

SusannaF said:



			In the era we live in, we don't have to eat animals or wear them. There are other things to eat and other materials to wear. We don't need to keep pets either.
		
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SusannaF said:



			Let's be honest.


Animals die for the entertainment of most of the people on this forum.

They are turned into shoes we don't need, into leather saddles we don't need, into food for cats and dogs that we don't need to keep either.

We're *all* greedy. Greedy for those shoes or for our pet cat to cuddle. We're all implicated.
		
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Add to this, all milk drinkers, do you give a thought to the 1/2 million male calves that are slaughtered within days of being born, just so you can enjoy a nice cuppa-tea with a dash of milk? But a couple of horses die in the National 'for entertainment' and all hell breaks loose - just not sure i can follow this line of thinking.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (14 April 2012)

Well this is an interesting thread.

This point sticks out the most, the old jockey's used to say you need a jumper, now it's a racehorse. Make no mistake, breeders of NH horses are not breeding these types of horses anymore either. Since coming over here all I've heard is how there needs to be more speed in these NH horses. Well they are doing just that. Soon the National will be shortened and fences smaller. Speed kills. 

To the person who said no horse in their right mind would jump those fences as an individual. They only jump because their in a herd. Ok whatever. Those are naturally looking fences and way more inviting and smaller than Olympic SJ fences. And what about those eventing fences. Also not herd mentality. Hate to be snarky but maybe head off to your roundpen. And I watched my then 2yo filly jog up to a 6ft hedge in her field and pop out across it. She was not being chased and I guess didn't like this field. I moved her but I also spent a day putting an electric fence up along said hedge like a numpty. She was fine and quite proud of herself. That's what I get for breeding a warmblood out of an old line NH mare I suppose. 

I'm not the biggest National fan and never have been. But I'm also not a fan of a few different horse sports. Doesn't mean I want them all banned.

Terri


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## Dab (14 April 2012)

Merry Crisis said:



			A long time ago when the National had huge fences, before all the modifications, the horses that ran in the race were National Hunt horses, they were more like middle weights. We had NH stallions to put on our substantial mares, not many "dual pupose" stallions about then, some could have up to 9ins of bone. They were not speed machines they had staminer and the differance between chaser and flat horse was clear to anyone with a pair of eyes. The course was a fair test, the pace was slower and they hacked into the fences got into the bottom of them and jumped. Sadly we have now a Park type course with 40 runners all going flat out. I dont think we will see less carnage all the time we have horses racing in the GN that are flat bred.
		
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well said...


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## Persephone (14 April 2012)

horseluver4eva said:



			catwithclaws  i cannot believe what you are saying, horses are not replaceable!!!!! if you had/have a child are they replaceable?...no so whats the difference with a horse. horses trust you with their life, they run to please you, they believe that you will keep them safe and each individual horse has their own attitudes, personalitys and ways. no horse is the same, the same with people. people who say they love it, i know thats your opinions and im sorry if i offend you but basically you are watching horses die and suffering.
		
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^^ Wow, totally agree!

I wish my horse was replaceable, life would be so simple then. But my relationships with my lost horses will never be usurped by my relationship with a new horse.

I love my horses for what they are, their quirks, personalities, everything. None of those things are replaceable IMO. 

Maybe that is the difference, I love the entity, not what it can physically do for me.


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## Tinseltoes (14 April 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			A few more deaths on the alter of entertainment, competition, ambition and greed, absolutely disgusting, contempt for all those involved.
		
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Agreed.Look how they dispose of the horses when theyre no longer needed.
Ban the national if possible.But if not then limit the amount of runner to a max of 20 horse or less.
Its all about MONEY and greed.


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## Hells Bells (14 April 2012)

Although I'm not an avid racing fan at all, I do watch the GN most years, and have say it's getting me questioning my own morals...again.

I'm fully prepared to get told i'm wrong or offered an informed opinion if I'm not hitting the mark, I don't mind at all  each to their own and all!

But basically, if I can get this across in words...

- To ME, it is a bit about the consentual issue. A horse is a horse, yes, and at the end of the day, a human's life may be more important, but the jockey does, rightly or wrongly, choose to race. The horse does not. 

What bothers me most is that the odds of accidents/fatalities amongst horses in the GN just seems too high compared to other sports. (Correct me if wrong please...as I said, not trying to offend anyone here)

And then it got me thinking...how can I justify my own ownership and riding of horses? And I think ultimately, it's because, when I get on my horse, yes there is the possibility that something horrific might happen, but over the years, and as of yet, it hasn't...thank God. And other than freak accidents, I'd like to think I'm never KNOWINGLY entering my horse into dangerous situations.

I think you could argue so many points here, and looking back on my own post, I dont know what I'm arguing really...   Sorry guys! 

I for one would have to do a hell of a lot soul searching to enter a horse of mine (don't laugh, i know they're cobs  ) into a race like the GN.

Well done to the winner. But I do think my relationship with the GN is winding down now. Shame.

Out of interest, is there a statistic out there about the liklihood of a fatality in the GN as compared to other races/types of riding?


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## diluteherd (14 April 2012)

Merry Crisis said:



			A long time ago when the National had huge fences, before all the modifications, the horses that ran in the race were National Hunt horses, they were more like middle weights. We had NH stallions to put on our substantial mares, not many "dual pupose" stallions about then, some could have up to 9ins of bone. They were not speed machines they had staminer and the differance between chaser and flat horse was clear to anyone with a pair of eyes. The course was a fair test, the pace was slower and they hacked into the fences got into the bottom of them and jumped. Sadly we have now a Park type course with 40 runners all going flat out. I dont think we will see less carnage all the time we have horses racing in the GN that are flat bred.
		
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Totally and utterly agree with every wise word you have written... to those who said the 'old gits stuck in their ways' maybe we should take a few tips of the older generation...


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## Amymay (14 April 2012)

What a wonderful post diluteherd.  Thankyou.


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## Marydoll (14 April 2012)

blazingsaddles said:



			Yo!, I don't give a *****, I've just won £3300 on Neptunes Collonges. Wish I'd put more down now, but stuff it, there's always another race. I've already decided what I'm spending my winnings on, my friends wil be envious and that's worth much more than a horses life.

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And that says it all about why it continues as is...... Greed and a complete disregard for the horse and jockeys safety as long as someones pockets are lined.


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## Hullabaloo (14 April 2012)

horseluver4eva said:



			catwithclaws  i cannot believe what you are saying, horses are not replaceable!!!!! if you had/have a child are they replaceable?...no so whats the difference with a horse. horses trust you with their life, they run to please you, they believe that you will keep them safe and each individual horse has their own attitudes, personalitys and ways. no horse is the same, the same with people. people who say they love it, i know thats your opinions and im sorry if i offend you but basically you are watching horses die and suffering.
		
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If you really don't see the difference between a horse and a child, you really need to get some perspective.

These are racehorses, bred and trained to do a job.  It is sad when a horse is killed in any discipline but there are far more pressing welfare issues in the horse world.  

For what it's worth, I thought Neptune Collonges was magnificent - what a performance!


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## Hells Bells (14 April 2012)

Also...have to add, and excuse me for offending anyone here.

But the whole 'it's just a horse' thing kind of makes me feel a bit sick.

It's an animal that gives its all for you, runs its heart our for you, jumps for you and it dies for you, and for your money...you just get another one?? Wish I could be as at ease as that!

John Hales quote: "The tears for One Man didn't stop for a year. It hit the family hard. In the summer he'd be in the field in front of the kitchen at home. You miss that. You live in fear of anything happening to them" 

Sums it up for me.


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## monkeybum13 (14 April 2012)

Hullabaloo said:



			If you really don't see the difference between a horse and a child, you really need to get some perspective.

These are racehorses, bred and trained to do a job.  It is sad when a horse is killed in any discipline but there are far more pressing welfare issues in the horse world.  

For what it's worth, I thought Neptune Collonges was magnificent - what a performance!
		
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Again, well put


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## Marydoll (14 April 2012)

Merry Crisis said:



			A long time ago when the National had huge fences, before all the modifications, the horses that ran in the race were National Hunt horses, they were more like middle weights. We had NH stallions to put on our substantial mares, not many "dual pupose" stallions about then, some could have up to 9ins of bone. They were not speed machines they had staminer and the differance between chaser and flat horse was clear to anyone with a pair of eyes. The course was a fair test, the pace was slower and they hacked into the fences got into the bottom of them and jumped. Sadly we have now a Park type course with 40 runners all going flat out. I dont think we will see less carnage all the time we have horses racing in the GN that are flat bred.
		
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A very good point MC


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## ChesnutsRoasting (14 April 2012)

marydoll said:



			And that says it all about why it continues as is...... Greed and a complete disregard for the horse and jockeys safety as long as someones pockets are lined.
		
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Exactly. 

My pockets are currently lined with pound notes. Aint life sweet?


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## Paint Me Proud (14 April 2012)

whether it is right or wrong to hold the grand national the loss of two magnificent horses is, and always will be, a sad waste.

I especially feel for the owners of According To Pete.


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## Double_choc_lab (14 April 2012)

GG Bells are you arguing with yourself?  You say you don't agree with the "just a horse" and you thought John Hales quote was great YET - he did lose a horse in National Hunt and he has continued with racing and even put a horse in the National.


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## Merrymoles (14 April 2012)

sally259 said:



			It is very sad when horses are killed in racing ... any race, but there wouldn't be any racehorses if people didn't race them.  The death of Syncronized, especially, is going to be 'publicity gold' for the animal rights protesters.
		
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Synchronised and According to Pete were my favourites (I like white faces) and I'm gutted that they were PTS but agree with sally259, racehorses wouldn't exist if people didn't race them. They are not pets, they are working animals and when things go wrong they get the best veterinary attention immediately, whether that means PTS or not. I'm fairly sure that I would rather see one of mine break a leg in a race and be PTS immediately than hang around waiting for hours for a vet after an accident elsewhere.
My view, for what it's worth, is that they went off too fast after the delays at the start (it was possible to see that a fair few were pretty wound up), that the race should not have waited for AP to remount and that it's time to get rid of the tape and let anyone who gets a bad start sort it out during the race.


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## Lizzie66 (14 April 2012)

GG Bells said:



			Also...have to add, and excuse me for offending anyone here.

But the whole 'it's just a horse' thing kind of makes me feel a bit sick.

It's an animal that gives its all for you, runs its heart our for you, jumps for you and it dies for you, and for your money...you just get another one?? Wish I could be as at ease as that!
		
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But it is just a horse. That doesn't mean that if it is your horse and it died you wouldn't  care or miss it terribly, but people on this forum are getting upset about an animal that they don't know.

What about all the cows, sheep, horses that go for slaughter should we be wailing and weeping for them as well ?


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## ChesnutsRoasting (14 April 2012)

TicTac said:



			You mean you've got friends?
		
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Of course I have friends, what sort of friend wouldn't pay for their friends to go on bi-annual holidays to the Caribbean  (all costs included) and weekly outings to Mahiki?


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## Hells Bells (14 April 2012)

Double_choc_lab said:



			GG Bells are you arguing with yourself?  You say you don't agree with the "just a horse" and you thought John Hales quote was great YET - he did lose a horse in National Hunt and he has continued with racing and even put a horse in the National.
		
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To be honest...YES!!  

I think the quote sums my view up well, but am fully aware he then went on to enter Neptune in the GN...but regardless of what he's done, I like the quote


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## justforfun (14 April 2012)

I bet on the national each year yet cringe when i watch the race and cry when I see the fallers.
I think so many people are forgetting the hard work put into all the horses and what wonderful condition they are all in.
The owners love their horses, consideration should be given to those who have lost their horses today, no-one wants their horse to be killed or injured yet people on here are making them out to be monsters.
Rather a racehorse have a fit healthy life cut short from racing than a fat, overfed,bored pony stabled all its life for a once a week spin round the block on a sunday, live a dull life for 30 yrs.


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## A Guilding (14 April 2012)

Merry Crisis said:



			A long time ago when the National had huge fences, before all the modifications, the horses that ran in the race were National Hunt horses, they were more like middle weights. We had NH stallions to put on our substantial mares, not many "dual pupose" stallions about then, some could have up to 9ins of bone. They were not speed machines they had staminer and the differance between chaser and flat horse was clear to anyone with a pair of eyes. The course was a fair test, the pace was slower and they hacked into the fences got into the bottom of them and jumped. Sadly we have now a Park type course with 40 runners all going flat out. I dont think we will see less carnage all the time we have horses racing in the GN that are flat bred.
		
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Agreed, you occasionally get great jumpers, Chris Maude on Young Hustler and Norman Williamson on Master Oats stick in my mind but they are from a few years back.


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## Moggy in Manolos (14 April 2012)

Merry Crisis said:



			A long time ago when the National had huge fences, before all the modifications, the horses that ran in the race were National Hunt horses, they were more like middle weights. We had NH stallions to put on our substantial mares, not many "dual pupose" stallions about then, some could have up to 9ins of bone. They were not speed machines they had staminer and the differance between chaser and flat horse was clear to anyone with a pair of eyes. The course was a fair test, the pace was slower and they hacked into the fences got into the bottom of them and jumped. Sadly we have now a Park type course with 40 runners all going flat out. I dont think we will see less carnage all the time we have horses racing in the GN that are flat bred.
		
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Very good point MC, logical and so true


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## Mitchyden (14 April 2012)

I'm not sure if this has been said because I only read the first six pages! If you look at the statistics, there were less deaths before they started tampering with the fences. The horses had to slow down and jump the fences when they were bigger instead of going flat out and jumping at speed. The ground I think also had a contributing factor as once again it was very fast going.


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## horseluver4eva (14 April 2012)

im not posting anything else after this, but do you think horses dont have feelings? its just a act of animal cruelty. in my eyes people and animals shouldnt be treated differently in regards to fairness, comparison to a child whats the problem, both need cared for and have emotions and feelings, i would choose a horse over a person any day, when do you see them going behind your back.. so people who are for the grand national are saying basically that even though horses die, come away with serious injuries and jockeys are killed it doesnt matter, its fun to watch. i used to love this forum thinking people had the same love for horses as me and understood them, but obviously not. im disgusted and am no longer going to use this forum.


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## Gingermonkey (14 April 2012)

Well said MerryCrisis. Steeplechasers seem so much finer these days.

I have watched, had a flutter and enjoyed The National from small with my old Dad and now my own Boys. However after today I am actually questioning my motivations for watching it in the future. I am no bunny hugger, I honestly believed I had Red Rum at the bottom of my Garden.

Do you think that the fact that Sychronised was focussed on at the start and we felt a bond with him after the dumping of AP McCoy? Or the fact that we now see the Tarps so clearly through enhanced camerawork? Could it be the in-depth TV coverage, good and bad, is what is highlighting the tragedy of the Lost & Injured Horses and making us question our reasons for 'enjoying' the race? When before it was just a footnote at the end of the news or in the Papers on Sunday?

Not really sure whether the National should or could be changed without losing what is the Soul of the Race? I am in a dilemma...RIP and my thoughts are with their owners and connections.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (14 April 2012)

Auslander said:



			Hilarious. I thought my sense of humour was inappropriate, but...
		
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 What can I say? Not only am I a greedy bitch, but I also lack appropriateness. As long as I can afford the high life, the suffering of others is irrelevent. I shall continue to live the dream.......................


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## dressagelove (14 April 2012)

horseluver4eva said:



			im not posting anything else after this, but do you think horses dont have feelings? its just a act of animal cruelty. in my eyes people and animals shouldnt be treated differently in regards to fairness, comparison to a child whats the problem, both need cared for and have emotions and feelings, i would choose a horse over a person any day, when do you see them going behind your back.. so people who are for the grand national are saying basically that even though horses die, come away with serious injuries and jockeys are killed it doesnt matter, its fun to watch. i used to love this forum thinking people had the same love for horses as me and understood them, but obviously not. im disgusted and am no longer going to use this forum.
		
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Don't stop posting horseluver, I agree with you. Am losing respect for some posters on here who profess to be horse lovers, its sad.


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## FayeFriesian (14 April 2012)

For those banging on about the footballer - He was in another country. You can hardly compare or expect people to know about it when its hardly in the news (just had to search on BBC Sport and its not the front line news on there either!).

I personally think that making the fences smaller would remove the deaths. These horses are tired, and the falling is what causes all these problems. So what if they go faster? at least all 4 legs are on the ground!. Make them smaller and make it a race about stamina (with 30 jumps of a resonable high thrown in). 

I feel sorry for those horses, not their owners/trainers - they knew full well what could or would happen.


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## Hullabaloo (14 April 2012)

horseluver4eva said:



			im not posting anything else after this, but do you think horses dont have feelings? its just a act of animal cruelty. in my eyes people and animals shouldnt be treated differently in regards to fairness, comparison to a child whats the problem, both need cared for and have emotions and feelings, i would choose a horse over a person any day, when do you see them going behind your back.. so people who are for the grand national are saying basically that even though horses die, come away with serious injuries and jockeys are killed it doesnt matter, its fun to watch. i used to love this forum thinking people had the same love for horses as me and understood them, but obviously not. im disgusted and am no longer going to use this forum.
		
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I love horses.  To me they are magnificent animals with a purpose, could be racing, eventing or a bit of hacking.  How a horse is treated during its life is far more important to me than the manner of its death.
Do not assume there is only one kind of love of horses.


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## L&M (14 April 2012)

I have not read all the replies but am relieved to see that other HHO's were upset by today's race.

I hunt and support NH racing in general but find the carnage of the GN too much too bear - when I heard Synchronised had been put down I cried. My 9yr old son watched it for the first time and his comment was that the race was 'barbaric' and I have to agree.

When Synchronised won the Gold cup the field size was much smaller and the horses had plenty of space to negotiate the obstacles. No horse got injured and it was a fantastic spectacle of horses at their most natural and best.

I do not see how any one who is a true horse lover could support this particular race and have vowed never to watch it again.


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## intouch (14 April 2012)

Would that there were more owners like the Dutchess of Westminster who refused to run Arkle in the National, and kept him for many years in retirement.  THis is the first year I haven't watched it, just cant take it any more, although I love watching the horses.  Glad I didn't.


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## Lizzie66 (14 April 2012)

FayeFriesian said:



			I personally think that making the fences smaller would remove the deaths. These horses are tired, and the falling is what causes all these problems. So what if they go faster? at least all 4 legs are on the ground!. Make them smaller and make it a race about stamina (with 30 jumps of a resonable high thrown in).
		
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You are ignoring the facts to fit your opinion. The majority of the falls are at the beginning when the horses aren't tired and are travelling faster. On the second round when they are more tired horses are more likely to refuse or be pulled up.

In past times, when the fences were bigger, there were less fatalities and significantly more runners. Now this could be that the ground was softer, that the horses has more bone, or that they were going more slowly as the fences were bigger !

Possibly a ruling that a horse must have completed at least 3 steeplechases of 3m or more and must not have fallen in any race in the current season could be brought in as a qualifying standard.


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## shortstuff99 (14 April 2012)

I too am saddened by the deaths of two horses, and never feel it is 'just a horse' but in response to some posts, horses don't have human emotions as much as I wish they did they just don't! But I think that this means what we sometimes make them do/treat them is worse as they have no concept of it. X


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## Flame_ (14 April 2012)

I'll read all this later. Great finish and a really deserving winner. 

Yes to reducing the field, I think to a maximum of thirty. Lots of fallers taking others down with them today. Such a shame to lose two horses, and it really hit home after having seen how each one was so important to its connections in the build up.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (14 April 2012)

Arkle wasn't around for too many years. He was 13 and couldn't stay sound as a pasture puff due to crippling arthritis.

Terri


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## MrsB (14 April 2012)

I haven't read all of the replies, but I have only once watched the GN, when I was a little girl - can't remember what year, but it was in the 70's and I was heartbroken and cried at the number of horses that fell and didn't get up.

For that reason, I have never, ever watched it again.... I do not bet on it, never have and never will.  For me, this race (if you can call it that, more like torture for some) is all about the glory & money for the trainers, owners and jockeys... the horses' welfare is low down the list... or why would they enter them into it, knowing the dangers ahead that their horse could be PTS?

Would also like to add that racing on the flat - no problem.  I don't have a problem with racing, it's what horses are fantastic at and also jumping, but for me, I cannot watch it....


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## 140397RJO12E (14 April 2012)

touchstone said:



			I felt physically sick watching it this year, I'm sure I saw one horse galloping off with a damaged leg at one point and my heart was in my mouth with every fence after the first fallers.

It wasn't pleasant having to see the field go past the screened off fifth fence with everyone cheering them knowing  a stricken horse was behind them.

I also thought that Claire Balding seemed upset at the end too.
		
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I totally agree, i think it was According to Pete that i saw get back up and carry on galloping (bless his heart) and his leg looked 'floppy' (in want of a better word) so sad


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## Charem (14 April 2012)

When I watch dressage I hope the horses don't spook or play up.
When I watch sj I hope the horses leave the poles up.
When I watch xc I hope the horses don't fall.
When I watch the National I hope no one dies...

I love racing, I have worked in racing. For those who have said that the connections don't care about the horses I can assure you there will be some very heartbroken people tonight, especially the lads and lasses who care for the horses like they were their own. But I struggle to support a race where it is given that number of horses WILL fall and as such the likelyhood of a fatality is VERY high. I had money on both According To Pete and Syncronized. I won't be putting money on the race again.

RIP boys, thoughts are with your connections.


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## Always Henesy (14 April 2012)

diluteherd said:



			Totally and utterly agree with every wise word you have written... to those who said the 'old gits stuck in their ways' maybe we should take a few tips of the older generation...
		
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Abso-bloomin-lutely!

I totally agree....not that MC is an old bird


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## AdorableAlice (14 April 2012)

ASBO Bob said:



			I usually love horse racing so was looking forward to the GN today.  But it was horrific! Far too many fallers, being realistic I was hoping for only three or less. And Synchronised and According to Pete being PTS is such a shame for owners and fans.   
Surely it has to be made safer?  I realise this gets said every year but today just seemed horrendous.  Just a thought, did it seem to anyone else that the brush on the fences was slowing the horses in mid air who caught their hooves in it?  Would they have slid over more birch style fences more easily?
		
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Seconded, the top dressing on the fences seems to bring the horses down, it is something I have thought the case for years.

Its a bad day for NH racing and even the industry is worried, Cornilius Lycett's comment on Sky Sport says it all.


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## Regandal (14 April 2012)

The GN is only one race.  Horses fall/are PTS at meetings all over the country - there's rarely an outcry.  Where I live, we are surrounded by NH training yards.  The horses are looked after to a very high standard - in order to do a job.  I agree with the poster who commented about cows, sheep etc, raised for slaughter.  Don't they have feelings?  How many of us are now tucking in to meat in some shape or form?  Also, most of the advances in treating horses are pioneered by the racing industry, which benefits everyone.


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## Happy Horse (14 April 2012)

I wouldn't want to see the race cancelled. Horses love to run, it is their herding instinct. Try getting 700KG of horse to do something it doesn't want to do. It won't happen. It is very sad when they die or are fatally injured but they are treated within seconds. More horses die in field accidents and wait 30+ minutes for a vet. The horses in the National live like kings and are trained for the race, vetted before the race and are fit to run.

What I would like to see is a reduction in numbers.  I feel it is the number of horses contribute as fallers bring down others particularly in the early stages.

People who say horses don't enjoy racing, I am sure they enjoy it far more than a cow enjoys a long trip in a lorry to a slaughterhouse and yet I doubt the majority of people against the National are vegetarians.


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## mulledwhine (14 April 2012)

Wow blazing saddles, I thought I had dine well winning £104, I should get a bit braver with my gambling 

Didn't see the race as I was jump judging, but when I was told if the deaths, and that synchronised had dumped McCoy, my instant reply was I would have pulled him out 

It is sad, but life is aout risks, I'm a way these horses do choose to race, so many others dint have their heart in it, how many of you gave the pleasure of owning the ones that said NO


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## mulledwhine (14 April 2012)

Apologies for SP and no sense sentences, can't edit on my phone


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## tallyho! (14 April 2012)

This is a different argument. I am sure if you posted on the slaughter of newly born male calves, battery hens, pigs etc equal debate would ensue.... there are millions campaigning to change animal welfare... I am one of the millions. I am a BUNNY HUGGER!!!!!!!!!

Hence why I make comment on this hazardous practice of racing, whether it be GN or not. If bullfighting laws can be changed (adhered to, different story), so can ridiculous races like this one. Also on my list is the Big Lick. Reigning. Laminitis. Navicular.

Cannot believe you try an justify racing based on the slaughter of animals for meat. Because it's so obviously the same thing.


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## Dirty_D (14 April 2012)

Very sad loss 

I am in no way condoning this but my only comment is that the Grand National is the 'Peoples Race', if they had decided not to run Syncronised after his escape before the race then there would have been an outcry from the general public, i assume media pressure would have a huge impact on whether the trainer ran or not. If he was not so well known he could have pulled out no issues, but a bookies favourite/Gold cup winner . . . seems your tied - and no one could predict what happened, escape or no escape he could have fallen regardless.

I watched heart in mouth and i feel more and more uncomfortable each year watching it.


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## Marydoll (14 April 2012)

blazingsaddles said:



			Exactly. 

My pockets are currently lined with pound notes. Aint life sweet?

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Not for the horse that gave its life so you can belittle it on here, greed on its worst form


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## thatsmygirl (14 April 2012)

I haven't read any off the comments on here but I enjoyed the race


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2012)

Lizzie66 said:



			But it is just a horse. That doesn't mean that if it is your horse and it died you wouldn't  care or miss it terribly, but people on this forum are getting upset about an animal that they don't know.

What about all the cows, sheep, horses that go for slaughter should we be wailing and weeping for them as well ?
		
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I think perhaps people have misunderstood what I mean by 'just a horse' Lizzie66 hasn't though. I love my horses very much, fret over them, pander to them and enjoy every aspect of them, including their odd little characters. If I only had them to ride I certainly wouldn't still have my Nitty pony. However, they are just an animal at the end of the day. Hardly on a par with my children (not that I have any yet) or my mother or brother.

I am no more going to get upset about the death of a horse in the National than I am about every pig, cow, sheep and chicken raised in intensive farming in this country, sent to slaughter and then eaten.  I value all animals on a pretty level playing field and am constantly baffled by the way horses are somehow elevated about cows in terms of 'rights'

Horses don't feel more than any farm animal and we treat them abysmally at times. Did you know a pig is roughly as intelligent as a dog? Would you let your pet dogs be treated the way we treat pigs reared for meat? Honestly? If the answer is no, but you still eat supermarket pork you have absolutely grounds to witter on about the deaths of two horses in racing.  

Because I choose to take a realistic view on the way humans use _ all _ animals to suit them doesn't mean I mistreat my horses or am an unfit owner. Or at least I don't think it does. 

Perhaps someone could explain to me how they justify wearing leather shoes, using leather tack, eating meat and drinking milk (unless all is properly, ethically sourced) and then get up in arms about the death of two horses who have ultimately lead a nice life and have been dispatched pretty damn quick. Those horses were the lucky ones, compared to your standard farm chicken or pig they had it easy.


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## ribbons (14 April 2012)

Justforfun touched on exactly what I was thinking. 
The national is a very dangerous race, run by brave horses and gutsy jockeys, and it is very sad when life is lost, but it's quick and these horses are in the peak of health until that moment. 
Aside from the hundreds of ordinary horses pts by vets every year due to accidents either ridden or in their fields, I bet if we had figures from vets on the amount that lose their lives because of owners loving them so much they overfeed them, over rug them, under work them, pamper them like pet poodles and have no idea of the long slow day after day of suffering they are causing until it's skin problems are driving it mad and it's in agony with laminitis and has to be pts.
Obviously there are many at the other end of the scale as well who suffer at the hands of cruel neglectful lazy owners. Suffering day in day out.
As I said, the loss of horses in the national is very sad, but it is a very quick end, and the numbers are miniscule compared to those that die at the hands of the every day horse owner.


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## Ceris Comet (14 April 2012)

Yes ...Claire Balding was upset ..bet she will be back next year .don't forget uncle was a trainer..


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## ChesnutsRoasting (14 April 2012)

marydoll said:



			Not for the horse that gave its life so you can belittle it on here, greed on its worst form
		
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Not belittling, just attempting (rather unsuccessfully, it appears) to illustrate how those involved with horse racing, whether breeding, training or betting are either doing so for the money or the kudos. I didn't bet on the GN, can't bear it or the sanctimonious twaddle that come after a fatality.


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## Amymay (14 April 2012)

Of course she will ceris comet. It's her job....


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## amandap (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			Those horses were the lucky ones, compared to your standard farm chicken or pig they had it easy.
		
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Oh, that's all right then! 

I've just read a comment that Synchronised died a noble death!  My blood is up. 

Re "old gits" read old fashioned values in my case. I'm an old git myself.

ps. Comparing food animals to entertainment animals is not 100% valid imo and is another huge bone of contention for me personally.


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## guido16 (14 April 2012)

I havent read posts. But, I dont watch the race because I dont want to watch horses fall to their deaths. It sickens me. However I dont condone racing. I just make a choice not to watch it.


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## StormyMoments (14 April 2012)

3Beasties said:



			I *think* the screen was up around a jockey  

Does any one find it strange how they never really comment on how the jockeys are? Do we just have to assume that all are OK unless we hear otherwise?
		
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i think what you have to remember is that the jockeys have a choice - they choose to race and get paid alot for it they know the dangers - what choice does the horse have it doesnt have once it cant just decide once day its no longer gonna race, im affraid that is why you dont hear much about them also they are all taught how to fall off so less injuries aanywho


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2012)

amandap said:



			Oh, that's all right then! 

I've just read a comment that Synchronised died a noble death!  My blood is up. 

Re "old gits"
		
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No, it isn't alright. I'm not saying it's alright. I think it's very sad. What I am saying is that people should try not to by hypocrites. I don't do nearly enough about animal welfare. I am informed about all of it and yet I still don't boycott supermarket meat etc. But at least I recognise that and can admit it. And I know why I think it.

Because I try and explain that doesn't make me a bad person. It makes me honest.

ETS: why is it different? You don't need to eat meat. You do it through choice. Both food and entertainment are covered under the same cloud of animal exploitation by humans. Why does it annoy you to compare them?


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## Paint Me Proud (14 April 2012)

just watched the race again and can anyone confirm if it is Synchronised who is a loose horse that jumps a fence at 02:45 in this video here - if it is is it possible this is when his injury was sustained, looks a heavy stumble over that jump as he is keeping good pace with the 'herd' until then.


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## Evadiva1514 (14 April 2012)

Charem said:



			When I watch dressage I hope the horses don't spook or play up.
When I watch sj I hope the horses leave the poles up.
When I watch xc I hope the horses don't fall.
When I watch the National I hope no one dies...

I love racing, I have worked in racing. For those who have said that the connections don't care about the horses I can assure you there will be some very heartbroken people tonight, especially the lads and lasses who care for the horses like they were their own. But I struggle to support a race where it is given that number of horses WILL fall and as such the likelyhood of a fatality is VERY high. I had money on both According To Pete and Syncronized. I won't be putting money on the race again.

RIP boys, thoughts are with your connections.
		
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Agree whole heartedly with everything you have said!!!


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## digitalangel (14 April 2012)

Heres another perspective - why does the GN have to be such a dangerous race? lots of horses, big fences, long distance...cant it be just as big a race if it was on the flat? I hail from Melbourne, Australia, where we have the Melbourne Cup which we even have a bank holiday for!!!  Its a far bigger race, and it enjoys just as much if not more fanfare, and horses rarely fall and die.. it doesnt have to be over jumps to be exciting.

Just sayin!


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## Dab (14 April 2012)

ribbons said:



			Justforfun touched on exactly what I was thinking. 
The national is a very dangerous race, run by brave horses and gutsy jockeys, and it is very sad when life is lost, but it's quick and these horses are in the peak of health until that moment. 
Aside from the hundreds of ordinary horses pts by vets every year due to accidents either ridden or in their fields, I bet if we had figures from vets on the amount that lose their lives because of owners loving them so much they overfeed them, over rug them, under work them, pamper them like pet poodles and have no idea of the long slow day after day of suffering they are causing until it's skin problems are driving it mad and it's in agony with laminitis and has to be pts.
Obviously there are many at the other end of the scale as well who suffer at the hands of cruel neglectful lazy owners. Suffering day in day out.
As I said, the loss of horses in the national is very sad, but it is a very quick end, and the numbers are miniscule compared to those that die at the hands of the every day horse owner.
		
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^^^^^I've been saying the same thing for sometime. But it does seem that some horse owners can not see what is in the mirror when they hold it up to themselves. 

The 10's of thousand of horses that go for slaughter to the continent suffering needlessly long journeys, with no water, breaks or feed. Many of these are horses that have been discarded by 'hobby' owners. Please consider saving some compassion and passion for these horses. 

Why does the National inspire such passion when a couple of horses die, but the WHW struggle to get this kind of support to try and change the rules about horse transportation across Europe? Is it just me that thinks things are slightly askew here?


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## SusannaF (14 April 2012)

amandap said:



			Oh, that's all right then! 
ps. Comparing food animals to entertainment animals is not 100% valid imo and is another huge bone of contention for me personally.
		
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As I said earlier in the thread, we eat animals and animal products out of choice. We live in an era in which we could all be vegan and avoid using leather etc. We choose to consume animals because we like it.

Be honest with yourself. It's not the same thing as condoning abuse - it's avoiding being a hypocrite.

I'm wildly inconsistent. I wouldn't eat horse meat but by God I'm sure that plenty of animals have had miserable lives so that I could have a salami sandwich hundreds of times in my life. Ditto my pile of leather shoes and boots.

Do I worry about intensive factory farming? Yes, it's disgusting. Did I avoid watching the National? Yes. But can I condemn it out of hand when I'm totally implicated in the suffering and fore-shortened lives of other animals? Not really, no. Unless I want to be a full-fat hypocrite.


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## Flame_ (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I think perhaps people have misunderstood what I mean by 'just a horse' Lizzie66 hasn't though. I love my horses very much, fret over them, pander to them and enjoy every aspect of them, including their odd little characters. If I only had them to ride I certainly wouldn't still have my Nitty pony. However, they are just an animal at the end of the day. Hardly on a par with my children (not that I have any yet) or my mother or brother.

I am no more going to get upset about the death of a horse in the National than I am about every pig, cow, sheep and chicken raised in intensive farming in this country, sent to slaughter and then eaten.  I value all animals on a pretty level playing field and am constantly baffled by the way horses are somehow elevated about cows in terms of 'rights'

Horses don't feel more than any farm animal and we treat them abysmally at times. Did you know a pig is roughly as intelligent as a dog? Would you let your pet dogs be treated the way we treat pigs reared for meat? Honestly? If the answer is no, but you still eat supermarket pork you have absolutely grounds to witter on about the deaths of two horses in racing.  

Because I choose to take a realistic view on the way humans use _ all _ animals to suit them doesn't mean I mistreat my horses or am an unfit owner. Or at least I don't think it does. 

Perhaps someone could explain to me how they justify wearing leather shoes, using leather tack, eating meat and drinking milk (unless all is properly, ethically sourced) and then get up in arms about the death of two horses who have ultimately lead a nice life and have been dispatched pretty damn quick. Those horses were the lucky ones, compared to your standard farm chicken or pig they had it easy.
		
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This pretty much sums up my feelings on all the hysterics over a couple of horses deaths. CPTrayes asked if you would run your horse with that level of risk - I wouldn't. None of my horses would face that danger because it would make *me* too sad to go home without them. But is it OK to risk an animal's life? Yes, of course it is as long as its OK to march healthy young animals off to certain death when it suits us, and to build roads knowing lots of wildlife will be flattened. The horses don't know they're in danger, do they? And their last memories are running with a herd like horses do. 

It would make for a much happier event for everyone involved though if they can find ways to make it less dangerous for horses and riders.


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## vickyb (14 April 2012)

Paint me proud - Racing Post states that synchronised got his injury while running loose, not in the fall at Bechers, so you are right in your observation on that footage. Also I don't think Claire Balding will be back - aren't Channel 4 taking over the GN next year?


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## Honeylight (14 April 2012)

Merry Crisis said:



			A long time ago when the National had huge fences, before all the modifications, the horses that ran in the race were National Hunt horses, they were more like middle weights. We had NH stallions to put on our substantial mares, not many "dual pupose" stallions about then, some could have up to 9ins of bone. They were not speed machines they had staminer and the differance between chaser and flat horse was clear to anyone with a pair of eyes. The course was a fair test, the pace was slower and they hacked into the fences got into the bottom of them and jumped. Sadly we have now a Park type course with 40 runners all going flat out. I dont think we will see less carnage all the time we have horses racing in the GN that are flat bred.
		
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I have said this many times.
Poor Synchronised was by Saddlers Wells & inbred to Hail to Reason for instance.  Quite a few NH horses look pretty nowadays. Not that many looked like proper jumpers.


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## Wagtail (14 April 2012)

marydoll said:



			Not for the horse that gave its life so you can belittle it on here, greed on its worst form
		
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She's joking.


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## Paint Me Proud (14 April 2012)

vickyb said:



			Paint me proud - Racing Post states that synchronised got his injury while running loose, not in the fall at Bechers, so you are right in your observation on that footage.
		
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Now that is even more of a shame, in this instance with Synchronised he had every opportunity to pull up, run wide etc but he chose to jump those fences, he obviously enjoyed doing so and that was his downfall. 

Had he just not jumped that fence he would still be alive. Real shame.


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## scrunchie (14 April 2012)

Dab said:



			^^^^^I've been saying the same thing for sometime. But it does seem that some horse owners can not see what is in the mirror when they hold it up to themselves. 

The 10's of thousand of horses that go for slaughter to the continent suffering needlessly long journeys, with no water, breaks or feed. Many of these are horses that have been discarded by 'hobby' owners. Please consider saving some compassion and passion for these horses. 

Why does the National inspire such passion when a couple of horses die, but the WHW struggle to get this kind of support to try and change the rules about horse transportation across Europe? Is it just me that thinks things are slightly askew here?
		
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Completely agree with the above and Ribbons' post.

That said, I'm not sure if we'll be watching again next year. I felt crap after last year, I feel worse after this year, especially as the kids are getting older and understand why the screens are up. My youngest had tears in her eyes as she asked if her horse had died, and my father was pretty gutted that According to Pete had been PTS.

My very first post on this forum was about GN last year when I asked if reducing the amount of runners would make the race safer. Last year most of the people that replied to me said no. 

As far as I can see, they keep tinkering with fences and it's not making a blind bit of difference. IMO they need to reduce the runners and bring the fences back up to their original height.

My condolences go to Synchronised and According To Pete's grooms and owners, thoughts and prayers go to Weird Al's.


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## Dab (14 April 2012)

Honeylight said:



			I have said this many times.
Poor Synchronised was by Saddlers Wells & inbred to Hail to Reason for instance.  Quite a few NH horses look pretty nowadays. Not that many looked like proper jumpers.
		
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Did you see the parade of the old winners? Interestingly the much older ones looked far chunkier than most of those running today.

My boy is an ex-NH, but there's barely any difference between him and my past ex-flat horses.


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## amandap (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			ETS: why is it different? You don't need to eat meat. You do it through choice. Both food and entertainment are covered under the same cloud of animal exploitation by humans. Why does it annoy you to compare them?
		
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Humans ate meat long before they farmed crops and animals lived their lives until we killed them. No, we don't have to eat meat but we do have to eat, we don't have to assume animals are somehow worth less than us because we eat them. There are so many of us bloomin humans that we do have to farm now to feed ourselves but we don't _have_ to use animals for entertainment at all. We abuse animals in so many ways but to then say it's ok because this or that is worse doesn't help any individuals plight or senseless and demeaning death.

It reminds me of those morons who shoot animals for so called sport and then decry wolves and foxes for killing to eat... that is being a hypocrite.

The argument that racehorses have 'good' lives is also debatable imo.


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## sophiebailey (14 April 2012)

Very sad at the deaths of synchro and pete  had a lump in my throat when I heard the news, they were both beautiful animals and a shining example of their breed.

I have no idea how to make this race safe so as no horses are injured going forwards but I do think people implying these horses are killed for sport is wrong; the owners + trainers of these horses pour blood, sweat and tears (and a lot of money) into their animals, and from the experience of a friend, I have seen the heartache and guilt they feel when the worst happens to their pride and joy. Although racing is a business, not all horses are viewed as just 'commodities'. Although the jockey doesn't have a 'bond' or 'relationship' with the horse, their owners + trainers do, and feel the same loss we feel when we lose our pleasure horses.

Hopefully next year the powers that be will find some way of improving safety, I agree that reducing the size of the field could have a positive impact.

A sad day  xx


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## Cumulonimbus (14 April 2012)

Paint Me Proud said:



			just watched the race again and can anyone confirm if it is Synchronised who is a loose horse that jumps a fence at 02:45 in this video here - if it is is it possible this is when his injury was sustained, looks a heavy stumble over that jump as he is keeping good pace with the 'herd' until then.
		
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Looks like it could well be synchronised looking back to where he was when he started running again after Bechers and made his way to the back.


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## Potato! (14 April 2012)

I just watched the replay. Synchronised fell at beechers then carried on loose. He fell again at the 11th fence unfortunately where he broke his leg.


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## Hollyberry (14 April 2012)

Anybody who thinks this is acceptable is no horse lover, the whole thing is disgusting and cruel.  Shame on those who bet on who would survive the course.  I am absolutely horrified by the whole debacle.


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## A1JUMPJOCKEY (14 April 2012)

One problem is, is that the general Public and the Non-racing people on here aswell dont realise the screens go up for every Incident during the race. The screens you would of seen as they approached Beechers 2nd was for Noel Fehily with a broken leg. I had a fall in a Point to point last week was badly winded and was a bit giddy so they put the screens up and by-passed the fence on the next circuit. Very sad about both Horses and i feel for Conections but dont always think the worse when you see the dreeded green screens. 

The biggest problem for me is that they have tinkered to much with the fences, Speed is an issue now as there not as upright so you dont have to back off them as much, more a case now of kicking into them instead. Saying that i rode in the FoxHunters in 2010 and they were plenty big enough then.


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## dressagelove (14 April 2012)

amandap said:



			Humans ate meat long before they farmed crops and animals lived their lives until we killed them. No, we don't have to eat meat but we do have to eat, we don't have to assume animals are somehow worth less than us because we eat them. There are so many of us bloomin humans that we do have to farm now to feed ourselves but we don't _have_ to use animals for entertainment at all. We abuse animals in so many ways but to then say it's ok because this or that is worse doesn't help any individuals plight or senseless and demeaning death.

It reminds me of those morons who shoot animals for so called sport and then decry wolves and foxes for killing to eat... that is being a hypocrite.

The argument that racehorses have 'good' lives is also debatable imo.
		
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Very well put Amanda.


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## scrunchie (14 April 2012)

I also agree with the posts about the breeding focussing on speed. This morning my OH pointed at the picture of According To Pete that was in H&H magazine and remarked on his "spindly" legs. Maybe it was the camera angle, maybe it's because we are used to Doris's fat carthorse legs but maybe, just maybe, (and I am far from an expert) our NH horses are getting too light and fragile.


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## amandap (14 April 2012)

SusannaF said:



			As I said earlier in the thread, we eat animals and animal products out of choice. We live in an era in which we could all be vegan and avoid using leather etc. We choose to consume animals because we like it.

Be honest with yourself. It's not the same thing as condoning abuse - it's avoiding being a hypocrite.

I'm wildly inconsistent. I wouldn't eat horse meat but by God I'm sure that plenty of animals have had miserable lives so that I could have a salami sandwich hundreds of times in my life. Ditto my pile of leather shoes and boots.

Do I worry about intensive factory farming? Yes, it's disgusting. Did I avoid watching the National? Yes. But can I condemn it out of hand when I'm totally implicated in the suffering and fore-shortened lives of other animals? Not really, no. Unless I want to be a full-fat hypocrite.
		
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So we should all shut up them? Is that really what you are saying? 
Abuse takes many forms and much of it is done by humans who believe they are animal lovers... they love on their terms though. 
This thread is about the National so that is what I am objecting to. 
I can go on about Conklin Dairy Farms etc. etc. but don't think it is relevant to this thread.


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2012)

amandap said:



			Humans ate meat long before they farmed crops and animals lived their lives until we killed them. No, we don't have to eat meat but we do have to eat, we don't have to assume animals are somehow worth less than us because we eat them. There are so many of us bloomin humans that we do have to farm now to feed ourselves but we don't _have_ to use animals for entertainment at all. We abuse animals in so many ways but to then say it's ok because this or that is worse doesn't help any individuals plight or senseless and demeaning death.

It reminds me of those morons who shoot animals for so called sport and then decry wolves and foxes for killing to eat... that is being a hypocrite.

The argument that racehorses have 'good' lives is also debatable imo.
		
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I'm not saying it's ok because of this or that. I'm saying that I, personally, am not a hypocrite and whilst I will still eat intensively reared pig from Tesco, and not check that things I buy are made with free range eggs, then who am I to bang on about the National? I  could (as could others) choose to eat only ethically sourced products but I don't. How many people commenting on this thread to you think do?  And how many of those that don't aren't even aware of how bad the situation is for livestock because it isn't on the telly/isn't anything to do with ponies?  How many people do you think check products for the presence of palm oil etc? 

If all the people who aren't ok with the National are doing their utmost to make sure they are doing right by all animals, fair play to them and I'll step down. However, if as I suspect, they happily turn a blind eye to the vast majority or animal welfare issues they directly buy in to I shall continue to call them out on it I'm afraid because I think all this vitriol could be put to better use in terms of reducing animal exploitation.  Perhaps I should do a poll? Not today though, I think everyone's had enough of GN threads today 

And only have a working knowledge of two racing yards. One first hand and one through a friend. All those horses were well treated by my standards. FWIW


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## pixiebee (14 April 2012)

montyforever said:



			The jockeys go into that race knowing exactly what to expect, that they could be injured or die but they do it still (for the money I guess!) the horses have no idea of the risks and don't choose to do it  that's why I care slightly more about the horses than the jockeys in this case. 
Not saying the horses life is worth more, just that the jockeys know what they are getting into and the risks.
		
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this!


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## mle22 (14 April 2012)

So I do eat only ethically produced meat - I also approve of the Grand National - I was also gutted about the death of two beautiful horses - I'm confused!


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2012)

mle22 said:



			So I do eat only ethically produced meat - and I also approve of the Grand National - I was also gutted about the death of two beautiful horses - I'm confused!
		
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Yeah, I'm pretty confused too. I think I give up! Ironman 2 is on and Robert Downey Jr is looking particularly lush so I might go and do some male exploitation instead of my usual animal exploitation!


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## Dab (14 April 2012)

mle22 said:



			So I do eat only ethically produced meat - I also approve of the Grand National - I was also gutted about the death of two beautiful horses - I'm confused!
		
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ditto
ditto
ditto

My horses are my top priority....

I'm not confused....


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## Dab (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			If all the people who aren't ok with the National are doing their utmost to make sure they are doing right by all animals, fair play to them and I'll step down. However, if as I suspect, they happily turn a blind eye to the vast majority or animal welfare issues they directly buy in to I shall continue to call them out on it I'm afraid because I think all this vitriol could be put to better use in terms of reducing animal exploitation.  Perhaps I should do a poll? Not today though, I think everyone's had enough of GN threads today 

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^^^This although for this forum i would only go as far as to say doing right by all 'horses'.

How many are actively involved with some form of equine charity? or governing body that can make a difference?


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## olop (14 April 2012)

IMO racehorses are not bred the way they used to be.  Google pics of the great dawn run, arkle etc and compare them to the racehorses of today - there is a huge difference.  Until the inbreeding and intense breeding that goes on today continues, accidents like these will continue.

I don't condone the race, in fact I love racing and have always been a fan, the horses in training are the best kept in the world.


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## georgiegirl (14 April 2012)

Whilst it is tragic and very very sad that two horses were lost today in that race I think people need to be very very careful on saying it should be banned!

First off, it is not just the grand national that racehorses die in. There are LOADS of NH hunt horses and PTP horses put down each year due to injuries sustained due to their career  - this may happen on the track in a horrible fall or may be afterwards due to lets say for eg a very bad tendon injury.

That said it also happens in more or less EVERY OTHER competitive horse sport too. Banning the national will eventually lead to other races being banned and filter on to other horse sports too. 

Its interesting there was a post the other week about Sir Roscoe the event horse which was put down and someone came on and asked 'why isnt this getting the flack racing gets?'. Now at the time it wasnt the time or the place for that discussion as I and many others told the poster but the fact is they DO have a point. NH Racing and in particular the grand national is very much in the public eye. Eventing and Showjumping not so much but accidents do happen in these sports to wether it be in the competiton arena or an injury sustained through training etc which leads to having the horse put down. In my eyes, (speaking as a lover of eventing and showjumping myself) these are exactly the same as the racing just not so highy publicised.

Ive probably worded all the above wrong trying to get across what I mean!

That said we should do everything in our power to prevent fatal accidents like these wether its reinstating the bigger fences to slow them down, reducing the number of runners, having tougher qualifications for the race, reducing the length of it etc who knows??? 

Even so, terrible accidents will always happen with horses no matter what people do and wether any of the above alterations would have prevented losing those two horses today we will never know.

I applaud and have huge admiration for the brave jockeys and horses who negotiate the GN - it truely is on of the most gruelling NH tests. Out of intrest does anyone know what the death rate statistics are for the pardubice?


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## texel (14 April 2012)

Many horse die every day across the world in the name of sport - there may be outrage but very quickly it becomes yesterday's news.

When money and investment is involved the misuse of horses will continue and the deaths of horses will continue.  Racehorses are dispensible when one goes there is another to take it's place the cycle continues.


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## lhotse (14 April 2012)

Having watched the race again, Syncronised is still galloping after the pack at the bypassed fence, and I can't see that he is injured at that point either. It's possible that the fracture was caused when he pulled up around Bechers as tired muscles can work in opposition and quite easily cause a fracture. According to Pete clearly had an injury as soon as he got up though.
The tabloids will no doubt have a field day tomorrow with pictures of the screens around the stricken horses (it was up around a jockey). I have to say that I don't like seeing horses injured in racing, but they do get the best of care throughout, and if they are injured, they are seen to immediately by a skilled veterinary team. 

I am relieved that the jockey behind the screens is ok, albeit with a broken leg, and mightly relieved that Ruby Walsh escaped serious injury in his fall earlier in the day, his helmet was actually cracked down the middle.


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## piebaldsparkle (14 April 2012)

The GN is not the race it used to be.  Years ago the ground conditions were normally heavy and the race was a true test of stamina, now it is more of speed, so when it goes wrong the horses land harder and faster.  The lowering of the fences has also meant less careful jumpers go round.


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## superpony (14 April 2012)

Apparently weird al is going to be ok, which is great news. Very sad about synchronise and according to pete though.


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## ebonyallen (14 April 2012)

Very sad, but nothing any of say will change it. Next year we will be having another thread on the same topic, and so it will continue.


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## Ibblebibble (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I'm not saying it's ok because of this or that. I'm saying that I, personally, am not a hypocrite and whilst I will still eat intensively reared pig from Tesco, and not check that things I buy are made with free range eggs, then who am I to bang on about the National? I  could (as could others) choose to eat only ethically sourced products but I don't. How many people commenting on this thread to you think do?  And how many of those that don't aren't even aware of how bad the situation is for livestock because it isn't on the telly/isn't anything to do with ponies?  How many people do you think check products for the presence of palm oil etc? 

If all the people who aren't ok with the National are doing their utmost to make sure they are doing right by all animals, fair play to them and I'll step down. However, if as I suspect, they happily turn a blind eye to the vast majority or animal welfare issues they directly buy in to I shall continue to call them out on it I'm afraid because I think all this vitriol could be put to better use in terms of reducing animal exploitation.  Perhaps I should do a poll? Not today though, I think everyone's had enough of GN threads today 

Click to expand...

very well put and i totally agree and understand where you are coming from.
I would be very interested to know how many of those lambasting the GN have actually taken any steps to make their feelings known to the relevant authorities, how many actively campaign to get it stopped?
I would also like those who say that it's cruel because the horses don't have a choice to explain how they justify their own riding and keeping of horses, no horse has ever actually chosen to be ridden, we coerce or force every single one of them to varying degrees.


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## Tamba (14 April 2012)

dressagelove said:



			Don't stop posting horseluver, I agree with you. Am losing respect for some posters on here who profess to be horse lovers, its sad.
		
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me, as well, cant believe people see things like that, how on earth can you compare cows, sheep that are bred to be eaten to horses, and in particular magnificent althetes like racehorses. If they banned the race, then 15 odd horses wouldnt be falling in one race, and there wouldnt be two fatalities in one race.. its never going to improve, and every year its a mess.. which now I cant watch it anymore..All in the name of greed..oh, how I wish I had the power to stop it.


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## Tamba (14 April 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			very well put and i totally agree and understand where you are coming from.
I would be very interested to know how many of those lambasting the GN have actually taken any steps to make their feelings known to the relevant authorities, how many actively campaign to get it stopped?
I would also like those who say that it's cruel because the horses don't have a choice to explain how they justify their own riding and keeping of horses, no horse has ever actually chosen to be ridden, we coerce or force every single one of them to varying degrees.
		
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And on that note, can anyone wishing to be included let me know, Im going to draft a letter tomorrow to send to both the Manager at Aintree and the PM. You can call me crazy, I dont care.


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## topclass (14 April 2012)

Im so sorry but I just cant watch it, it just brings me to tears every single time its betting on which horse will survive personally I feel like its russian roulette but having had an ex racer who had been hit so hard with a racing whip that the whip  had broken and damaged the muscle on his body it brings me to tears, sorry If ive upset a lot of people but for me its horrific. RIP horses


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## Firewell (14 April 2012)

This is what I wrote to the post in Latest News, it's basically my thoughts:-

I think the subject of the GN and racing is such a complicated and sensitive one with so many pro's and con's, it's really very hard for me to take sides.
However I do know I did not enjoy watching the carnage one bit. Yes it's nice to have thrills and spills but it's almost like watching a blood sport when it's so dangerous for the horses and the jockeys.
The start was a total farce and an embarassment. I agree with the poster who said this was partly to blame. They need to get rid of that bloody tape, if some are dwelling at back tough luck. They need to be able to jump off first time, what they should say is anyone seen on camera to be over the line on starters orders will be penalised after the race. That would soon keep them all back.
I think the field looks like it is too large. I know its the National and everything but the piles ups don't help. Its when a horse falls it brings down the ones behind who can't get out of the way in time.
Maybe back 100's of years ago when people were used to livestock being dead stock it was more acceptable but nowadays when horses are seen as pets more, it's a bitter pill to swallow.
Saying that, those two horses were probably more better off than a lot of horses in this world. It's sad but I'd be seriously stonkingly rich if I had a penny for every horse ruined by a fool. A lot worse things happen than a horse being well looked after and then dying in a race. It's a fact of life, can't save every horse from their fate. Stop racaing and then what happens to the TB's? A lot of their troubles start once they are passed on to joe blogs who has no clue. They didn't suffer and thats the main thing.
Racing has it's place but they are going to have to do something about the National to reduce the fatality rate or i'm not sure I'm going to be able to watch it. I see both sides but i'm still a horse lover. I love the history behind it and the fairy tale stories but it really upsets me to look at all the horses before the race and wonder which ones won't make it . It shouldn't be like that.


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## Fii (14 April 2012)

I eat meat, mostly locally grown, but not always, and my OH works on a dairy farm, (shock horror!!!) but even so, both of us has the right to stand up and say that the GN today was  an absolute , uncontrolled, dangerous, ballsup from the start!! And we only watched the highlights!
 The racing industry should hang their heads in shame, and get this race sorted or abandon it for good!!


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2012)

Tamba said:



			And on that note, can anyone wishing to be included let me know, Im going to draft a letter tomorrow to send to both the Manager at Aintree and the PM. You can call me crazy, I dont care.
		
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Perhaps you should send a copy to the BHA as well.


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## ruralconsultant (14 April 2012)

Many horse die every day across the world in the name of sport - there may be outrage but very quickly it becomes yesterday's news.
		
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Unbelievable attitude.


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## Jackson (14 April 2012)

Jesstickle, I used to enjoy reading your posts, but I think after reading your first post on here I have lost my respect for you  The same goes for any one else that believes that any sort of life is replacable. It's people that think like this that leads to events (like the grand national..) that allow the deaths of unsuspecting animals to just carry on as they are.

I come from a racing family, my grandfather even had a runner in the national. I  enjoy going to the races and have grown up on/visited/worked on quite a few different yards where all of the horses were bright, happy and well cared for, each with an individual character (some nicer than others!!)

These horses are bred for their job, and not necisarily to be loved and petted but that does not mean that their life is worth any less than any other! (human or equine *hides*)

 They all appeared to love their work, although really, who knows what goes on in their heads. But, I am really confused as to how I feel about the GN. It's just not appropriate any more. Not for the type of horses that are being run in it, nor the ammount of horses being run and the changes that have been made to the course just accentuate the problem.

People have bred TBs to their limit and something has got to give. The horses are trained, fittened and tuned to their limits and things break.


RIP horses.


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## mle22 (14 April 2012)

Tamba said:



			me, as well, cant believe people see things like that, how on earth can you compare cows, sheep that are bred to be eaten to horses, and in particular magnificent althetes like racehorses. If they banned the race, then 15 odd horses wouldnt be falling in one race, and there wouldnt be two fatalities in one race.. its never going to improve, and every year its a mess.. which now I cant watch it anymore..All in the name of greed..oh, how I wish I had the power to stop it.
		
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So one animal is worth more than another? Just wondering ...


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## rockysmum (14 April 2012)

RIP the horses and condolences to the grooms and anyone who really cared about these two animals.  By cared I mean about their welfare rather than what they are worth or could have won.

Just found this on my Facebook, interesting reading

http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/table.php


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## meesha (14 April 2012)

dont watch any horse racing and certainly not Grand National, as I am not a fan of racing since I worked at Chelt. Gold cup (in the boxes) and heard about the number of injuries & Horses pts.

Happy to sign anything to make it safer - watching animals die as entertainment is usually frowned upon to say the least so why can they get away with it when its termed "racing"


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## lannerch (14 April 2012)

Synchronised should not have run so soon after Cheltenham big bucks who ran also at Cheltenham over smaller fences and a shorter distance cannot be compared to the two marathon runs synchronised was asked to do in little over a month!
I had a sick feeling when they announced he was running in the national it reminds me of when oliver townend got ( correctly ) a fleecing for running was it questy at burghly and i think kentuckey in a similar time scale. Questy was obviously tired and flattened all the show jumps however synchronised paid with his life!


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## diluteherd (14 April 2012)

Sorry MC!! Wasn't calling you an old git!! Lol someone was blaming the GH being dangerous due to old gits stuck in their ways :/ 

I'm sure you are a spring chicken with a very wise head on you


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2012)

Jackson said:



			Jesstickle, I used to enjoy reading your posts, but I think after reading your first post on here I have lost my respect for you  The same goes for any one else that believes that any sort of life is replacable. It's people that think like this that leads to events (like the grand national..) that allow the deaths of unsuspecting animals to just carry on as they are.
		
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O well, I don't post to be liked and you can't win them all.

I've explained where the statement came from in some depth in further posts, if you can not understand why I don't think horses are any less replaceable than farm animals which I'll happily eat I can't make you. 

You won't shame me into changing my mind I'm afraid.


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## Dab (14 April 2012)

meesha said:



			- watching animals die as entertainment is usually frowned upon to say the least so why can they get away with it when its termed "racing"
		
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Do people watch the National to see horses die? or do they watch the national because they enjoy watching the horses jump and race?

If you own a horse you are abusing it everyday for the purposes of your own entertainment. Why are you more deserving of sourcing your entertainment from a horse than those who enjoy racing?


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2012)

Tamba said:



			me, as well, cant believe people see things like that, how on earth can you compare cows, sheep that are bred to be eaten to horses, and in particular magnificent althetes like racehorses.
		
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I think  you may have just vindicated my suspicions I'm afraid


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## cptrayes (14 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Jess if two or three horses out of thirty died every week you went hunting, and two or three horses in every section of every BE event died on the cross country -

- would you still go if the event was allowed to be held?

- and if you would not still go (I'm a risk taker but I wouldn't accept those odds for my horses) do you think those events should still be run?

Please remember when you answer that it would mean a typical BE event with eight sections a day with c35 runners in each section would have an average of 20 horse deaths PER DAY.
		
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Jess did you see this post, I can't find your answer? I'm not looking for a fight, I'm seriously interested in what you think of the numbers when they are extrapolated to eventing or hunting.

I also take your point about cows and horses, but I don't expect the cow that I am eating to have run about on a broken leg, or to have suffered extremely painful joint or tendon injuries for which they be shot after they get back home, which will quite possibly also happen to some of today's runners. So I'm not sure the posters on this forum are quite as hypocritical as you believe.


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## jenki13 (14 April 2012)

After reading all the replies here and watching the race (was at work whilst it was on!) & re-watching clips/replays. This is my opinion:

The deaths of Synchronised and According to Pete were sad, but they were accidents that could of occurred in any race not just the GN. According to Pete was brought down by another horse falling in front - in a 5 horse race he still wouldn't have been able to do anything else.
State of play brought down Rare Bob in turn bringing down Chicago Grey who were OK, showing that in some cases it really is Sod's Law.
Synchronised continued running and stumbled at another fence whilst loose causing injury - again could have happened at "any time", maybe if he had gone back to training the next hurdle he went over it would have happened. Obviously we'll never know.

From BBC:
15/40 horses finished
7 riders were "unseated" - not fallers.
4 horses were pulled up
1 horse refused
11 horses fell
2 horses were brought down

However it lists According to Pete as a Faller - I would say he was brought down.

So why did those 10 horses Fall? Would it be safer if there were less runners so that it really was the "cream" running & stricter qualifications where horses would have to race over a certain distance a minimum number of times would mean it would be more of a stamina less a speed race (correct me if I'm wrong I don't really know about the qualification procedure  )
The canal turn seems to cause quite a few problems (1 faller, 4 unseated) with all the horses crowding the inside- loose horses can be a real danger when they continue running especially when the swerve across fences. Could the turn be made my "sweeping" to reduce crowding?

I honestly think that cutting the field even to 30 and making it less about speed by putting fences up would help.


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## Fii (14 April 2012)

Persephone said:



			^^ Wow, totally agree!

I wish my horse was replaceable, life would be so simple then. But my relationships with my lost horses will never be usurped by my relationship with a new horse.

I love my horses for what they are, their quirks, personalities, everything. None of those things are replaceable IMO. 

Maybe that is the difference, I love the entity, not what it can physically do for me.
		
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Well said P!! Totally agree!!


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## Jackson (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			You won't shame me into changing my mind I'm afraid.
		
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I wasn't trying to. 


I wonder if more 'pet' horses die from bad management from their owners (i.e laminitis..) or just accidents when ridden or running round in the field, than the ammount lost in actual races?

Realistically, how many ridden horses go through their lives not experiencing some sort of suffering or injury inflicted on them by how we manage horses?...


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## Ladydragon (14 April 2012)

3Beasties said:



			A footballer collapsed and died today during a match, I'm sure there will damn sight less posts on here and FB as there will be about the loss of the two horses in the National. 

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It might be a good guess that individuals/forums etc who follow football (I don't) will discuss the situation in which the person died and make any tributes as they see fit...  A bit of a straw man argument on a horse forum which is more likely to discuss horse deaths/welfare/activities...



Wagtail said:



			Two years ago I stopped watching and will never watch it again. I have no desire to witness horses dying, live, in real time before my eyes. I don't know what the answer is. It's an institution. People's livelihoods are dependent on it...but I have to say that I think it is morally wrong. 

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I watched it in the 80s when a horse landed head first over Beechers...  Again a bit later and two died...  Never been able to stomach it since...  



horseluver4eva said:



			if you had/have a child are they replaceable?...no so whats the difference with a horse.
		
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You have to be kidding me...  The death of someone's child would be the same as the death of their horse?!  I can assure you it absolutely is not...  



blazingsaddles said:




Of course I have friends, what sort of friend wouldn't pay for their friends to go on bi-annual holidays to the Caribbean  (all costs included) and weekly outings to Mahiki?
		
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*snigger* 



jesstickle said:



			Horses don't feel more than any farm animal and we treat them abysmally at times. Did you know a pig is roughly as intelligent as a dog? Would you let your pet dogs be treated the way we treat pigs reared for meat? Honestly? If the answer is no, but you still eat supermarket pork you have absolutely grounds to witter on about the deaths of two horses in racing.
		
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Maybe I'm just a bit of a softie although not a dyed in the wool bunny hugger...  And I think I understood what you meant by "it's just a horse"...  Since I started buying my own food, 'how it lived' has been important...  I'll enjoy a steak with the best meat eaters around but I'll go without unless it's sourced from ethical farming and I can afford it...  I'm fine with animal slaughter for food so long as the life and death are humane...  The likelihood of one or more horses dying each year because of the GN appears to be greater than them all surviving which isn't something that I can agree with when it gets prettied up as sport or fun or for a flutter...  For me, it's not exactly a million miles away from dog fighting...


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Jess did you see this post, I can't find your answer? I'm not looking for a fight, I'm seriously interested in what you think of the numbers when they are extrapolated to eventing or hunting.

I also take your point about cows and horses, but I don't expect the cow that I am eating to have run about on a broken leg, or to have suffered extremely painful joint or tendon injuries for which they be shot after they get back home, which will quite possibly also happen to some of today's runners. So I'm not sure the posters on this forum are quite as hypocritical as you believe.
		
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Sorry, I meant to go back to find it. In answer to your question, I  honestly don't know. I can imagine happily putting a horse into training (if I had one that wasn't a total crock obviously ) and I could afford it. And if it turned out to be any good, yeah, I probably would let it run in the National. I can't say that as an absolute but probably I would.

And no, I wouldn't hunt if 2 out of every 40 horses died on any given weekend, but more because dead horses don't usually have a jockey still attached and I am too much of a wimp as a rider to want to contend with those risks myself. I am just not good enough to ride something like the National.

And as for the cow, it will just have been rammed onto a lorry with a load of other stressed out cattle and driven to the abbatoir. Not really much nicer than going to the races when you think of it from the cow's perspective. They aren't used to travelling in the way horses are and they certainly aren't used to walking in to the slaughter house etc. And don't even get me started on the conditions 'free range' chickens live in!


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## Dab (14 April 2012)

jenki13 said:



			After reading all the replies here and watching the race (was at work whilst it was on!) & re-watching clips/replays. This is my opinion:

The deaths of Synchronised and According to Pete were sad, but they were accidents that could of occurred in any race not just the GN. According to Pete was brought down by another horse falling in front - in a 5 horse race he still wouldn't have been able to do anything else.
State of play brought down Rare Bob in turn bringing down Chicago Grey who were OK, showing that in some cases it really is Sod's Law.
Synchronised continued running and stumbled at another fence whilst loose causing injury - again could have happened at "any time", maybe if he had gone back to training the next hurdle he went over it would have happened. Obviously we'll never know.

From BBC:
15/40 horses finished
7 riders were "unseated" - not fallers.
4 horses were pulled up
1 horse refused
11 horses fell
2 horses were brought down

However it lists According to Pete as a Faller - I would say he was brought down.

So why did those 10 horses Fall? Would it be safer if there were less runners so that it really was the "cream" running & stricter qualifications where horses would have to race over a certain distance a minimum number of times would mean it would be more of a stamina less a speed race (correct me if I'm wrong I don't really know about the qualification procedure  )
The canal turn seems to cause quite a few problems (1 faller, 4 unseated) with all the horses crowding the inside- loose horses can be a real danger when they continue running especially when the swerve across fences. Could the turn be made my "sweeping" to reduce crowding?

I honestly think that cutting the field even to 30 and making it less about speed by putting fences up would help.
		
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Good post.

With regard to the structure of qualification, i believe (and very am happy to be corrected) that it all comes down to the horses rating. However the horse can get that rating say 11 months prior to the GN and then it is not run again - so its rating never changes and it can still run in the national...but it could have had a serious loss of form in that time, or not be fit etc. Take these horses out of the field of runners.

Theres a reason why the National has a fair few rank outsiders, and these horses should probably not be running and crowding the field.


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## cptrayes (14 April 2012)

Dab said:



			Why are you more deserving of sourcing your entertainment from a horse than those who enjoy racing?
		
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Because those who enjoy jump racing enjoy watching a spectacle that carries the certainty of a high proportion of premature horse deaths. There is no other horse sport that carries the certainty of deaths in those numbers. If there was, that  horse sport would be stopped. Racing is not a horse sport, it is a huge business which is run for betting, with horses as a resource, not the primary motivation of more than a tiny, tiny proportion of those who follow it. That business can still run without horse deaths in those numbers, and therefore, in my opinion, it should.


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## Flame_ (14 April 2012)

Persephone said:



			^^ Wow, totally agree!

I wish my horse was replaceable, life would be so simple then. But my relationships with my lost horses will never be usurped by my relationship with a new horse.

I love my horses for what they are, their quirks, personalities, everything. None of those things are replaceable IMO. 

Maybe that is the difference, I love the entity, not what it can physically do for me.
		
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Fii said:



			Well said P!! Totally agree!!
		
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That's fine to feel that way about your own animals, I feel that way about mine, but do you really think that horses as a species should all be valued that highly by all humans? Race horses are largely bred for what they can physically do for people and they would be a bit pointless if they weren't given the opportunities to do it. These horses are worth thousands, nobody wants them to die, but horses have to have a purpose unless they are particularly lucky and loved as someone's pet, and for many horses their purpose is to run the Grand National, and its not a bad gig for all the horses who didn't die and will be heading off on their summer hols right about now.


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## fburton (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			Sorry, I meant to go back to find it. In answer to your question, I  honestly don't know. I can imagine happily putting a horse into training (if I had one that wasn't a total crock obviously ) and I could afford it. And if it turned out to be any good, yeah, I probably would let it run in the National. I can't say that as an absolute but probably I would.
		
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Appreciate your willingness to answer cptrayes questions - which I think are actually rather good ones.

So what do you think about going to cross country events if they had the same fatality stats, and whether they should still be run?


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2012)

Ladydragon said:



			Maybe I'm just a bit of a softie although not a dyed in the wool bunny hugger...  And I think I understood what you meant by "it's just a horse"...  Since I started buying my own food, 'how it lived' has been important...  I'll enjoy a steak with the best meat eaters around but I'll go without unless it's sourced from ethical farming and I can afford it...  I'm fine with animal slaughter for food so long as the life and death are humane...  The likelihood of one or more horses dying each year because of the GN appears to be greater than them all surviving which isn't something that I can agree with when it gets prettied up as sport or fun or for a flutter...  For me, it's not exactly a million miles away from dog fighting...
		
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I do try to buy ethically, but then convenience takes over again. That's awful isn't it? 

One day I'll have a little small holding with my own cows and sheep and pigs and they'll all live happily until I decide I want to eat them. Will have to win the lottery first of course. And curb my enthusiasm for junk food as I'm pretty sure Dominoe's don't care where their meat comes from!

I'm really not arguing that we shouldn't try and make the National safer, just that I find the level of outcry disproportionate when viewed along side other issues. Which doesn't mean we shouldn't try and make this safer, but perhaps we could all do a little bit more in general for animal welfare. Or at least accept that we might not all have an unblotted copy book. 

It is one of my bug bears on the forum that people use overly emotive language about these things.  I personally have more than one level of disgust. I am saddened by the deaths today, I still enjoyed the race. I can't understand how people can use the same language about a couple of dead horses as they would about a murder or rape or child abuse or the situation in Syria etc, etc. I suppose I am just not a great fan of hyperbole and threads like this always seem to contain it in spades and it just sets me off. Like a crotchety old woman


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## Dab (14 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Because those who enjoy jump racing enjoy watching a spectacle that carries the certainty of a high proportion of premature horse deaths. There is no other horse sport that carries the certainty of deaths in those numbers. If there was, that  horse sport would be stopped. Racing is not a horse sport, it is a huge business which is run for betting, with horses as a resource, not the primary motivation of more than a tiny, tiny proportion of those who follow it. That business can still run without horse deaths in those numbers, and therefore, in my opinion, it should.
		
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So where do you draw the line, in terms of what is acceptable? How many deaths per 1000? 

If you stopped the betting would racing be acceptable? or just if you stopped the deaths it would be acceptable?


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## cptrayes (14 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			And as for the cow, it will just have been rammed onto a lorry with a load of other stressed out cattle and driven to the abbatoir. Not really much nicer than going to the races when you think of it from the cow's perspective. They aren't used to travelling in the way horses are and they certainly aren't used to walking in to the slaughter house etc. And don't even get me started on the conditions 'free range' chickens live in!
		
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Thanks for the answer. Those jockeys sure are brave, I couldn't do it yet I love a big hedge myself 

I take your point with this paragraph but I still feel uncomfortable about it. I can't quite get my head around it, but it's connected with poor treatment of meat animals resulting in a good thing - nutritious food people can afford to buy, and deaths of racehorses underpinning nothing more than the gambling industry, which surely could continue with safer racing?

Personally I only ever buy cow I know the name of, but I do feel guilty every time I buy Tesco chicken.


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## cptrayes (14 April 2012)

Dab said:



			So where do you draw the line, in terms of what is acceptable? How many deaths per 1000? 

If you stopped the betting would racing be acceptable?
		
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You draw it well below multiple horses in one race.  Racing where there is a certainty that a high proportion of horses will die during the race and at home shortly afterwards will never, in my opinion, be acceptable, betting or not. No other sport featuring horses than racing would be allowed to continue with that level of horse deaths.  Why do we make an exception of racing?


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## debbielinder (14 April 2012)

Have read all previous comments and everyone is going to have an opinion and im affraid we are not going to agree. I live in liverpool and have got to say there is such a buzz about the place national weekend. It is very sad about these 2 horses but i feel they will have been given the best veterinary care available within minutes. But to put a positive note on it i just wanted to comment on katy walsh's fantastic ride. She rode beautifuly and gave that horse a fantastic ride and whatever anyone says they were very much a partnership.


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## jenki13 (14 April 2012)

Dab said:



			Good post.

With regard to the structure of qualification, i believe (and very am happy to be corrected) that it all comes down to the horses rating. However the horse can get that rating say 11 months prior to the GN and then it is not run again - so its rating never changes and it can still run in the national...but it could have had a serious loss of form in that time, or not be fit etc. Take these horses out of the field of runners.

Theres a reason why the National has a fair few rank outsiders, and these horses should probably not be running and crowding the field.
		
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I see, it would be interesting to see whether horses that gain the rating & then don't race for 11 months (I assume this is what's meant by a "national horse" in the papers) and rates of falls compared to those that qualify in the year before. 

Is there anywhere that shows the odds just before the race for each horse? In compliance finished 4th at 100-1 but I wondered if the other outsiders where the ones that fell at early fences? 
I think if this was the case then it would definitely be something to look into and a strong case for a smaller field.


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## millikins (14 April 2012)

I've watched the GN for over 40 years and today I was thrilled for Neptune Collonges who's always been overshadowed by his more famous stablemates. But, I do think there was an unacceptable number of falls, IMO probably due to the greater speed allowed by the "improvemnts", I'm sure in past years more pulled up or refused.


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## Echo Bravo (14 April 2012)

And out come the fluffy ones,it was a good race and a very good horse won it and deserved to win it. Am very sorry for According to Pete's owners and JP Macmanus,but they both knew what could happen to their horses and unfortunately it did.No more to be said.


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## Dab (14 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			You draw it well below multiple horses in one race.  Racing where there is a certainty that a high proportion of horses will die during the race and at home shortly afterwards will never, in my opinion, be acceptable, betting or not. No other sport featuring horses than racing would be allowed to continue with that level of horse deaths.  Why do we make an exception of racing?
		
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So well below multiple horses in one race would be one or none? Which would then possibly mean that you would have to look at the top 4* events etc

How was there a certainty that a high proportion (what is that 40%, 70%?) died during or after todays race? Did this happen?

Is there a certainity that a numpty owner will end up causing harm, that could lead to the premature death of their horse? is this acceptable? or horses being PTS becuase they can't pay their way in a riding school, is that acceptable?


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## el_Snowflakes (14 April 2012)

3Beasties said:



			This ^^^


A footballer collapsed and died today during a match, I'm sure there will damn sight less posts on here and FB as there will be about the loss of the two horses in the National. 

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possibly because this is the 'horse' and hound website?


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## TeamChaser (14 April 2012)

Phew! Have read whole thread (yes - I need to get a life!)

My thoughts .... for what they are worth ....


I do think that it's the speed now that is responsible for increasing numbers of fatalities and think this has several contributing factors (which have been mentioned so won't dwell) 
 - ground too fast
 - reduction in height of fences
 - faster horses taking part (NH breeding fashion in recent years) Did anyone see Sprinter Sacre?!? WOW

I find the concept of "choice" an interesting one  Ask yourself, does your horse choose to live alone, live in a stable, spend hours in a school each week practicing dressage, have a saddle on, have a bit in it's mouth, jump coloured poles, jump x country jumps, travel in a trailer/lorry ..... tick all those that apply .... you get my drift.  The fact is we have domesticated horses for our own uses - whatever they may be - they have never had a "choice" in that. They do as we ask due to their wonderful generosity of spirit and hopefully because they also get some enjoyment from these activities (in fact, how do we know that a horse enjoys dressage any more that they do racing?). We in turn have a responsibility to care for them and the racing industry is no more guilty of a lack of care than any other industry or indeed many horses owned for leisure purposes. In fact, as supreme athletes, the care racehorses receive is vital to performance. As other posters have pointed out, we tend to humanise our horse (I'm sure I do the same) but they have no concept of danger or death, for that matter, and act and react mainly on instinct

Which brings me to my final point - that we use herd instinct to "make" horses run and that they wouldn't jump those fences if asked to do so on their own.  I team chase one of mine and he loves it!  How do I know? The gleeful bucks and the way he absolutely tows me over the practice fence in the warm up and clears it by feet gives me a clue  Once on the course, a true pro and gets on with the job in hand but make no mistake, he know's exactly what he's there for on arrival and loves every second of it.  Would he go round the course on his own? Almost definitely, but I'm sure he wouldn't find it as much fun!  I have fallen off recently (as featured in H&H magazine) and you can bet your a**e he immediately jumped up and followed his buddies! That's not adrenaline or fear, that's a desire to carry on with him mates (most put out when caught and had to stand whilst I was attended to by doc )

Today's events were terribly sad (I actually don't think Synchronised should have run but that's just my opinion) but this shouldn't immediately turn into a welfare/cruelty debate

John Hales was interviewed on RUK in the build up and confirmed that both Neptune Collognes and Noland would be retired today - whatever the outcome of their respective races - and to see this big, burly guy so near to tears when speaking so movingly about his horses had me (and the presenter!) in tears.  Please don't assume these animals aren't loved.  Well done to Neptune (what a note to go out on!!) and here's to a long and happy retirement 


RIP Synchronised and According to Pete xxx


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## Mithras (14 April 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Because those who enjoy jump racing enjoy watching a spectacle that carries the certainty of a high proportion of premature horse deaths. There is no other horse sport that carries the certainty of deaths in those numbers. If there was, that  horse sport would be stopped. Racing is not a horse sport, it is a huge business which is run for betting, with horses as a resource, not the primary motivation of more than a tiny, tiny proportion of those who follow it. That business can still run without horse deaths in those numbers, and therefore, in my opinion, it should.
		
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No, you're right, dressage, showjumping, polo, eventing, etc kill horses much more slowly, by inflicting unnatural stresses on their bodies so that they break down equally as often before the get to the competition as at it, but with less advanced vetinary checks and medication available.  As for amateur riders, jumping on hard ground, doing too many classes on unfit horses, riding horses that are too small to carry them, bad riding, blaming their horses - how many problems does the average horse in the average livery yard have, despite doing nowhere near the workload of a racehorse?

Have regularly witnessed a whole host of bizarre ailments in horses at livery yards, horrendous injuries from kicking from being turned out on inadequate grazing in large groups, likewise problems due to lack of socialisation or turnout, horses being schooled for 2 hours non stop and shouted at when they put a muscle out of place - ugh.

Never saw anything as bad as I've seen at a livery yard when I worked in horse racing, where higher standards applied and people actually knew what they were doing.

Your arguement falls down because livery yards are businesses, whereas racing as an industry is organised because there is a competitive sport behind it, in which people who like to excel in that competitive sport, compete.  You will generally find that elite athletes in any sport compete because they have a desire to do their best in that sport, not for money.  These athletes would include trainers, jockeys, breeders and owners.  The rest of the industry is the support structure which has developed around permitting the sport to operate on the scale that it does.  It is no longer solely the sport of kings.


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## Copperpot (14 April 2012)

Team Chaser that is a very well put post and one I agree with.


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## Fii (14 April 2012)

Flame_ said:



			That's fine to feel that way about your own animals, I feel that way about mine, but do you really think that horses as a species should all be valued that highly by all humans? Race horses are largely bred for what they can physically do for people and they would be a bit pointless if they weren't given the opportunities to do it. These horses are worth thousands, nobody wants them to die, but horses have to have a purpose unless they are particularly lucky and loved as someone's pet, and for many horses their purpose is to run the Grand National, and its not a bad gig for all the horses who didn't die and will be heading off on their summer hols right about now.
		
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Wouldnt it be lovely if they were all valued that way though!
 Dont get me wrong, i am NOT against racing at all, but this years GN was a complete ballsup no matter which way you look at it!! 





jesstickle said:



			I do try to buy ethically, but then convenience takes over again. That's awful isn't it? 

One day I'll have a little small holding with my own cows and sheep and pigs and they'll all live happily until I decide I want to eat them. Will have to win the lottery first of course. And curb my enthusiasm for junk food as I'm pretty sure Dominoe's don't care where their meat comes from!

I'm really not arguing that we shouldn't try and make the National safer, just that I find the level of outcry disproportionate when viewed along side other issues. Which doesn't mean we shouldn't try and make this safer, but perhaps we could all do a little bit more in general for animal welfare. Or at least accept that we might not all have an unblotted copy book. 

It is one of my bug bears on the forum that people use overly emotive language about these things.  I personally have more than one level of disgust. I am saddened by the deaths today, I still enjoyed the race. I can't understand how people can use the same language about a couple of dead horses as they would about a murder or rape or child abuse or the situation in Syria etc, etc. I suppose I am just not a great fan of hyperbole and threads like this always seem to contain it in spades and it just sets me off. Like a crotchety old woman 

Click to expand...


 I think you have to take each issue on its own merit, So argue about the GN and why you disagree/agree with it, without bringing in farming issues, rape or child abuse into it, they have nothing to do with what we are talking about! 
 I can get just as wound up about animal abuse as i can child abuse, but the two dont come up in the same conversation, so arent comparable as an argument!


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## Flame_ (14 April 2012)

jenki13 said:



			Is there anywhere that shows the odds just before the race for each horse? In compliance finished 4th at 100-1 but I wondered if the other outsiders where the ones that fell at early fences? 
I think if this was the case then it would definitely be something to look into and a strong case for a smaller field.
		
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I always back a "no hoper" so I tend to remember the horses with 100-1 odds plus. I had Neptune Equester(sp) at 150-1... It finished 13th. The horses who finished 7th and 8th were 100-1 shots IIRC. Looking at a list of the early fallers, most of them had set off with a decent chance IMO.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/horse-racing/grand-national-full-results-the-winner-795334

Maybe the Grand National just is what it is and we should face the danger and stop complaining? I don't know. It gives us something to discuss anyway.


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## criso (14 April 2012)

Millikins said:



			. But, I do think there was an unacceptable number of falls, IMO probably due to the greater speed allowed by the "improvemnts", I'm sure in past years more pulled up or refused.
		
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I did hear on the radio that since the safety measures were introduced over the last few years deaths have gone up not down.

So I wondered if a few factors were coming together.

Smaller fences so horses going faster.
Drier springs which mean the ground is harder and faster, horses  more likely to fall at speed and more likely to do serious damage if they do.  More horses get tired and pulled up in the mud.
Have the horses changed? Less old fashioned chaser types who can jump but are slower partly due to the smaller fences.

Not sure, but if the number of deaths have increased then whatever changes are being made are the wrong changes.


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## TeamChaser (14 April 2012)

Copperpot said:



			Team Chaser that is a very well put post and one I agree with.
		
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Why thank you Copperpot! 

Such an emotive one this one, and always gets the blood up. 

My sister rang me after the race and I was sobbing at the loss of 2 such wonderful horses who have been fabulous for their connections, but without racing, there would be no need for these animals which would be a huge loss I think. I have an ex racehorse so maybe I'm biased, but they really are the most magnificent animals, in so many ways

We do need to see a return of the "National" type of horse for this race (like Ballabriggs actually) rather than these little speed demons!  I didn't think Synchronised was a National type but really sad to have been proved right on this occasion


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## jenki13 (14 April 2012)

Flame_ said:



			I always back a "no hoper" so I tend to remember the horses with 100-1 odds plus. I had Neptune Equester(sp) at 150-1... It finished 13th. The horses who finished 7th and 8th were 100-1 shots IIRC. Looking at a list of the early fallers, most of them had set off with a decent chance IMO.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/horse-racing/grand-national-full-results-the-winner-795334

Maybe the Grand National just is what it is and we should face the danger and stop complaining? I don't know. It gives us something to discuss anyway. 

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Blows that theory out the water!
Definitely gives for a good discussion.. shame that it's about the bad rather than the good though. 

The positives: Neptune Colognes had a brilliant run & finish was exciting! 
Also Katie Walsh had a fantastic ride to finish as the highest placing woman ever


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## Dab (14 April 2012)

criso said:



			I did hear on the radio that since the safety measures were introduced over the last few years deaths have gone up not down.

So I wondered if a few factors were coming together.

Smaller fences so horses going faster.
Drier springs which mean the ground is harder and faster, horses  more likely to fall at speed and more likely to do serious damage if they do.  More horses get tired and pulled up in the mud.
Have the horses changed? Less old fashioned chaser types who can jump but are slower partly due to the smaller fences.

Not sure, but if the number of deaths have increased then whatever changes are being made are the wrong changes.
		
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Very interesting. Problem is there is a knee jerk reaction and changes are made to the course without the full consequences having been considered. Yet they are slow to introduce welfare measures such as the more advanced cool down facilities, shorter or no parade in hot weather. 

Maybe they need to move the race to earlier in the year?


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## Jesstickle (14 April 2012)

Fii said:



			I think you have to take each issue on its own merit, So argue about the GN and why you disagree/agree with it, without bringing in farming issues, rape or child abuse into it, they have nothing to do with what we are talking about! 
 I can get just as wound up about animal abuse as i can child abuse, but the two dont come up in the same conversation, so arent comparable as an argument!
		
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I didn't bring rape etc in as part of my argument, was more general chit chat about the forum annoying me. 

And I think farming issues are directly pertinent to why _ I personally _ don't have a problem with the National. And that is what I said. _ I personally  _ couldn't criticise the National, and _I personally _ think a horse is just a horse, because of my far wider own beliefs and habits.  

I'm sorry. I don't categorise things like that, I don't think I should be basing my opinions soley on what has happened in the last half an hour or what I've seen on the telly. I base my opinions and my morals on what is happening in the wider world and what has shaped my life.  Modern farming directly contributes to why I agree with the National. I'm sorry it annoys you that I don't reason the same way you do.


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## amandaco2 (14 April 2012)

Always hated this race and can't watch it....... Any other single event causing deaths each time its ran would be cancelled


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## belle31 (14 April 2012)

Can't watch won't watch, never have never will. My ex racer tucked up in bed tonight safe and sound and I thank my lucky stars she is with me and not on the racecourse anymore


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## Dab (14 April 2012)

jenki13 said:



			Blows that theory out the water!
		
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Not necessarily, there is a reason why the elite marathon runners start in a different location to Joe Public. But regardless a smaller field would be prefereable.


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## Horselover39 (14 April 2012)

I am appalled and shocked at what I witnessed in today's national.  SOMETHING DRASTIC NEEDS TO BE DONE!!!!!!!!!!

I believe less runners and altering the landing side of Becher's MUST BE DONE!!!

What does everyone else think and can we do anything as Horse and Hound readers  to prevent this utter carnage happening again???


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## Beausmate (14 April 2012)

Too many runners going too bloody fast.  Make it safer?  Take out a quarter of the field and make the fences bigger.  Apart from altering the landing sides of Becher's and Valentine's, which was a really good thing, the whole attempt to make the National safer seems to be having the opposite effect.

The last few runnings have seen the horses going hell-for-leather in to the first fence, what happened to the horses setting off in a nice controlled fashion ready to take part in an endurance test?  They're starting like it's a two mile chase!  Jockeys used to kick on at fences, now they're having to take a pull, several of the runners were almost hurdling the fences, they're not coming back on their hocks and jumping.

Well done to the connections of Neptune Collonges on a fantastic win and on giving the horse his well deserved retirement.  And well done to Katie Walsh-what an achievement!


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## Fii (15 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I didn't bring rape etc in as part of my argument, was more general chit chat about the forum annoying me. 

And I think farming issues are directly pertinent to why _ I personally _ don't have a problem with the National. And that is what I said. _ I personally  _ couldn't criticise the National, and _I personally _ think a horse is just a horse, because of my far wider own beliefs and habits.  

I'm sorry. I don't categorise things like that, I don't think I should be basing my opinions soley on what has happened in the last half an hour or what I've seen on the telly. I base my opinions and my morals on what is happening in the wider world and what has shaped my life.  Modern farming directly contributes to why I agree with the National. I'm sorry it annoys you that I don't reason the same way you do.
		
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LOL, it doesnt annoy me at all, you have every right to the way you see things! I just dont see things the same way, doesnt make ether of us right or wrong!


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## Dab (15 April 2012)

Interesting stat.....

*Stamina*Every single winner of the Grand National since Gay Trip in 1970 had previously won over three miles or further over fences. It seems obvious that to win a Grand National a horse should have proven stamina - this is the longest race of the year with a 40-strong field and no contest in which to support a horse with stamina questions to answer. And yet in the seven renewals since 2005, 51 non-winners over 3m+ tried their luck in the National (including an incredible 12 in 2008 - exactly 30% of the contenders). 

Perhaps the message is finally getting through to connections as just 5 took their chance in both 2009 and 2010, and last year, however on those occasions they still represented over 12% of the field.....

No place for these horses in this race.


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## Tamba (15 April 2012)

Horselover39 said:



			I am appalled and shocked at what I witnessed in today's national.  SOMETHING DRASTIC NEEDS TO BE DONE!!!!!!!!!!

I believe less runners and altering the landing side of Becher's MUST BE DONE!!!

What does everyone else think and can we do anything as Horse and Hound readers  to prevent this utter carnage happening again???
		
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I totally agree, and feel strongly about it as well, which is why Im writing a letter, I think the more people complain and voice their view against it, the more likely things will change, I heard that some of the celebrities who were present at the race, were disgusted as well, they carry weight, so hopefully they will complain as well. I know I will be.


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## jenki13 (15 April 2012)

Dab said:



			Not necessarily, there is a reason why the elite marathon runners start in a different location to Joe Public. But regardless a smaller field would be prefereable.
		
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Yeah, I agree a smaller field would be better. I just meant the theory that the rank outsiders were the fallers... Of course if we analysed the race(s) to see if the outsiders hampered the favourites in any way that might prove more conclusive.



Horselover39 said:



			I am appalled and shocked at what I witnessed in today's national.  SOMETHING DRASTIC NEEDS TO BE DONE!!!!!!!!!!

I believe less runners and altering the landing side of Becher's MUST BE DONE!!!

What does everyone else think and can we do anything as Horse and Hound readers  to prevent this utter carnage happening again???
		
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Only 2 horses fell at Bechers brook? Once on the 1st circuit (Synchronised), 1 on the 2nd (On his own) who brought down 1 (According to Pete). 2 horses were pulled up before it on the 2nd circuit.

The canal turn actually caused more problems with 1 horse falling and 4 riders being unseated..

Not entirely sure what we can do.. maybe write to the relevant authorities? Raise points of concern i.e possibility of the field being reduced - this seems a common theme.



I also realised that I spelt Neptune Collonges wrong on my previous post!


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## criso (15 April 2012)

Here's the figures 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equine_fatalities_in_the_Grand_National


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## Flame_ (15 April 2012)

FWIW, I'm actually shocked at how many of the rank outsiders completed or pulled up safely late on. The fallers were mostly flipping fast horses. 

Maybe that shows the odds are mainly based on speed rather than stamina and jumping ability?


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## criso (15 April 2012)

Flame_ said:



			FWIW, I'm actually shocked at how many of the rank outsiders completed or pulled up safely late on. The fallers were mostly flipping fast horses. 

Maybe that shows the odds are mainly based on speed rather than stamina and jumping ability?
		
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Probably - odds will  be set on success in other races, races that are shorter and have smaller fences


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## el_Snowflakes (15 April 2012)

belle31 said:



			Can't watch won't watch, never have never will. My ex racer tucked up in bed tonight safe and sound and I thank my lucky stars she is with me and not on the racecourse anymore
		
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bless her


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## cambrica (15 April 2012)

How on Earth can anybody watch the GN and call it fun and exciting ? Especially those that claim to 'love horses'

Last year I watched it for the last time. Sat down with my family and all I could focus on were the horses several fences back that had taken a bad fall. Then the 2nd time round my son commented on why anybody would put a tent up in the middle of the racetrack. At that point the TV went off !
Animal cruelty happens and it is always upsetting BUT to tune in and watch a race that you know you are likely to see a horse lose its life right there in front of you on live tv - that actually concerns me more about the world we live in.

I am not anti racing but am very anti GN. There is a line that has been crossed as to how much we expect of these superb animals. Next year there will be exactly the same thread as I imagine there was last year.


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## Horselover39 (15 April 2012)

Something must be done!!!  It was a heatbreaking race to watch!!!  

Poor poor Synchornised he shouldn't have been allowed to race after the spook incident.  He'd already run half a mile and should not have been included.

AND


Poor, poor, poor "According to Pete" who fell, because another horse had fallen.  The poor horse didn't have a chance at Bechers!!!!!  I watched that lovely family on the "Build up" to the race.  They must be devastated, they didn't deserve that and neither did their amazing horse.


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## Horselover39 (15 April 2012)

I totally agree and something needs to drastically change regarding the race.  In his day an age watching that.  It was barbaric...........


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## jenki13 (15 April 2012)

Flame_ said:



			FWIW, I'm actually shocked at how many of the rank outsiders completed or pulled up safely late on. The fallers were mostly flipping fast horses. 

Maybe that shows the odds are mainly based on speed rather than stamina and jumping ability?
		
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Yeah possibly as it's become more of a "speed" race, then the fastest horse's become the favourites but it's actually the slower horses that make it round because they actually have more stamina?

Looking at the list of equine fatalities the last 2 years have been worse than previous years? except for 1998 where there were 3 fatalities and in 2002 where there was 2.


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## YorksG (15 April 2012)

Horselover39 said:



			Something must be done!!!  It was a heatbreaking race to watch!!!  

Poor poor Synchornised he shouldn't have been allowed to race after the spook incident.  He'd already run half a mile and should not have been included.

AND


Poor, poor, poor "According to Pete" who fell, because another horse had fallen.  The poor horse didn't have a chance at Bechers!!!!!  I watched that lovely family on the "Build up" to the race.  They must be devastated, they didn't deserve that and neither did their amazing horse.
		
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They chose to enter the horse in the race, no one forced them to!
If only those who deserved to die did, of any species, the planet would be overrun!
On a more serious note, the speed of the race does seem to cause most of the problems, and ways of slowing it down may be the safest option, perhaps with watered ground and higher fences. I have to say that I quite understand Jesstickles point of view.


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## Dab (15 April 2012)

YorksG said:



			They chose to enter the horse in the race, no one forced them to!
If only those who deserved to die did, of any species, the planet would be overrun!
On a more serious note, the speed of the race does seem to cause most of the problems, and ways of slowing it down may be the safest option, perhaps with watered ground and higher fences. I have to say that I quite understand Jesstickles point of view.
		
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True, true and i wonder what the owners of According to Pete would say about stopping the National?

Tricky one that about watering the ground, can cause a lot more problems than it solves, with uneven wet-spots causing legs to break.
What about holding it earlier in the year, cooler and wetter weather? (havent done any research, just a thought)


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## Laafet (15 April 2012)

Not going to get into the rights or wrongs of it all but all horse did have to qualify, all horses were checked by vets before the race, Sychronised was checked by a vet after his run and in the end broke his leg jumping a fence while loose, not much that can be done about that. According to Pete was very unlucky. At the end of the day, I found it a little sad that it took away from the winner who deserved the win after all his years of service and given that his owner had lost his other great grey, One Man, at the course.


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## Truly (15 April 2012)

By making it 'safer' they've made it faster 

Also by breeding them to have the speed at the finish they've made the horses faster.

The pedigree of a NH horse nowadays is full of flat racers..there are no old fashioned NH stayers anymore...it's been bred out with Speed to Stamina, Speed to Stamina etc.etc.etc.

I can't think what else they can do to make it safer except cut the field down.

I've only ever enjoyed it when none get hurt...find it hard to justify why I watch it as each fence I look away until my O/H tells me they are all over or have got up.

Totally torn as I love racing, I love TB's, have total respect for the trainers (most of them), Jockeys, Lads and Lasses but could never send one of my own TB's jump racing....I couldn't live with myself if something happened to them


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## Dobiegirl (15 April 2012)

Laafet I agree that these horses deaths sad as they were detracted from the success of the winner.

I think its ironic and Im not trying to be funny here that the more safety measures they put in place the more fatalities seem to be occuring and Im referring to this year and last. Its my opinion that everytime they lower the fences the faster they go and with bigger fences horses give them more respect. Perhaps making the landing side of Bechers less steep would also have an effect.


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## Dab (15 April 2012)

Has anyone looked at the times to see if the races have actually got faster?

The last few years has been run on good to firm which will usually result in a faster time. And i think the last couple of years have been on the fast side, and right up there, but not the fastest, i think Rummy was very fast on one of his wins.

Struggling to find the race time for todays winner.


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## Laafet (15 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Laafet I agree that these horses deaths sad as they were detracted from the success of the winner.

I think its ironic and Im not trying to be funny here that the more safety measures they put in place the more fatalities seem to be occuring and Im referring to this year and last. Its my opinion that everytime they lower the fences the faster they go and with bigger fences horses give them more respect. Perhaps making the landing side of Bechers less steep would also have an effect.
		
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Well said, actually on Morning Line last year John Francome said that making the fences easier/smaller was wrong as it allowed the horses to go faster and hence have more falls. He said they should keep the heights big to prevent this.


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## jenki13 (15 April 2012)

Dab said:



			True, true and i wonder what the owners of According to Pete would say about stopping the National?

Tricky one that about watering the ground, can cause a lot more problems than it solves, with uneven wet-spots causing legs to break.
What about holding it earlier in the year, cooler and wetter weather? (havent done any research, just a thought)
		
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It's a thought but I expect they'd say it would be too close to Cheltenham?

Also I'm not sure what it's been like round Aintree but our fields have been dry till the last week! Was extremely glad of the rain when I finally got to go for a gallop friday


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## millimoo (15 April 2012)

This race makes me feel sick to my stomach... The fatalities are truly awful, but so are the shocking falls that don't result in death.
Out of 40 horses, only 15 finished... That's not sport with those kind of odds.
It's had it's day and I think enough is enough


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## Dab (15 April 2012)

jenki13 said:



			It's a thought but I expect they'd say it would be too close to Cheltenham?

Also I'm not sure what it's been like round Aintree but our fields have been dry till the last week! Was extremely glad of the rain when I finally got to go for a gallop friday 

Click to expand...


Good point re:Chelterham.

And yes we've only had rain recently, but don't know how that statistically pans out.


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## jenki13 (15 April 2012)

I've found the times up until 2008 can't seem to find any later...

http://www.systemlays.co.uk/grand-national-winners-trainers-jockeys-weights-times-and-more/413/

1995 - 2008 race time was around the 9-10min mark except for 2001 where it hit 11 minutes..

wonder what last years/todays was?


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## Faithkat (15 April 2012)

intouch said:



			Would that there were more owners like the Dutchess of Westminster who refused to run Arkle in the National, and kept him for many years in retirement.
		
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It is true that the Duchess of Westminster would never let Arkle run in the National but you fail to mention that his retirement at the age of 9 was because he broke a bone in his foot during the Boxing Day 1966 running of the King George VI Chase.  He was put down at the end of May 1970 aged 13 because of continual pain from arthritis in both hind feet (and I am quoting the newspaper report of June 1st 1970).

I have been following the National for getting on for 60 years and believe me, the race is much kinder and safer than it was years ago.  At one time there was no limit on the number of runners - before my time but in 1929 there were 66 runners (ggod grief!)  The fences have also been made "kinder" - they were higher and more solid years ago but now the top layers are of loose brush and vegetation while the best introduction of all has been the "run out" areas (which enabled today's race to be waved past the 21st fence).  Until very recently the fences were the entire width of the course which is why there were so many pile-ups caused by loose horses refusing and having nowhere to go - 1967 and the "Foinavon" fence immediately springs to mind and the pile-up at the Canal Turn not so many years ago.  I am not particularly a jump racing fan, I much prefer the Flat, but rightly or wrongly, a number of horses are killed racing all the time but it is only the high profile races that hit the headlines.  However, I did think the point made by one of the commentators today that not many horses stayed the trip hit the nail on the head and really calls into question the physical fitness of the horses to run a four-and-a-half mile race and that I believe is more likely to be the reason for so many falls.  Personally, I would like to see the National only being contested by horses that have qualified by winning or being highly placed in other long steeplechases.


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## Ladydragon (15 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



*I do try to buy ethically, but then convenience takes over again. That's awful isn't it? *
<snip>
It is one of my bug bears on the forum that people use overly emotive language about these things.  I personally have more than one level of disgust. I am saddened by the deaths today, I still enjoyed the race. I can't understand how people can use the same language about a couple of dead horses as they would about a murder or rape or child abuse or the situation in Syria etc, etc. I suppose I am just not a great fan of hyperbole and threads like this always seem to contain it in spades and it just sets me off. Like a crotchety old woman 

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Nah...I'm still trying to pack in the ciggies...  The 'correct' behaviour doesn't always follow great intent...   And in all fairness, at least you're acknowledging a potential for a double standard...  I see no problem with meat eating (good husbandry etc) which indicates a perception of superiority in favour of the human but I do have a big problem with animals dying in the name of human entertainment...  Arguably a double standard even with my insistence on only eating ethically sourced meat...

And I do tend to agree...  Some of the almost 'deification' of horses is a bit of an eye opener...


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## Dobiegirl (15 April 2012)

Todays time as per Racing Post was 9.5.10s which was fast by 4.90s but a fence was omitted because of a fallen jockey and I believe a fence was omitted last year because of a stricken horse.


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## jenki13 (15 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Todays time as per Racing Post was 9.5.10s which was fast by 4.90s but a fence was omitted because of a fallen jockey and I believe a fence was omitted last year because of a stricken horse.
		
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So not faster than previous years with less fatalities... Not sure how the total fallers compared to other years


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## Dab (15 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Todays time as per Racing Post was 9.5.10s which was fast by 4.90s but a fence was omitted because of a fallen jockey and I believe a fence was omitted last year because of a stricken horse.
		
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jenki13 said:



			I've found the times up until 2008 can't seem to find any later...

http://www.systemlays.co.uk/grand-national-winners-trainers-jockeys-weights-times-and-more/413/

1995 - 2008 race time was around the 9-10min mark except for 2001 where it hit 11 minutes..

wonder what last years/todays was?
		
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Rough Quest 1996 9m on Good - 1 fatality after the race

Party Politics 1992 9m 6 on good to soft  - no fatalities (?)

Mr Frisk 1990 8m 47 s on Firm - no fatalities 

Red Rum 1973 9m 1 s on Firm - 1 fatality after the race


Think last two years have run around 9m 6 mark on good to firm. So is it the speed that is the issue?


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## Dobiegirl (15 April 2012)

I believe the fastest time was by Mr Frisk 8m 47.8 other times were dependent on ground conditions.


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## Truly (15 April 2012)

http://www.aintree.co.uk/pages/grand-national-winners/

Shows you times and going.

Very surprised the times aren't much quicker...it looks to have got faster on averagre by about 20 seconds but I would have expected more.


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## Faithkat (15 April 2012)

Interesting interview with Ruby Walsh who has been in a few Nationals, he thinks speed is the problem  . . . . . 
http://blog.paddypower.com/2012/04/12/ruby-walsh-the-grand-national-a-view-from-the-saddle/


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## Dab (15 April 2012)

Truly said:



http://www.aintree.co.uk/pages/grand-national-winners/

Shows you times and going.

Very surprised the times aren't much quicker...it looks to have got faster on averagre by about 20 seconds but I would have expected more.
		
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Thanks for the link.

Has it got that much quicker, looking back 15 years ago, same times, same going. If you go back much further then yes, but would you expect to see some improvement due to breeding and feeds etc?

1997 Lord Gyllene  09-10-00  Tony Dobbin  Steve Brookshaw  Stan Clarke  14/1  9m 5.8s  Good  36 
1996 Rough Quest  10-10-07  Mick Fitzgerald  Terry Casey  Andrew Wates  7/1 F  9m 0.8s  Good  27 
1995 Royal Athlete  12-10-06  Jason Titley  Jenny Pitman  Gary & Libby Johnson  40/1  9m 4.0s  Good  35


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## jenki13 (15 April 2012)

Dab said:



			Rough Quest 1996 9m on Good

Party Politics 1992 9m 6 on good to soft 

Mr Frisk 1990 8m 47 s on Firm

Red Rum 1973 9m 1 s on Firm 

Think last two years have run around 9m 6 mark on good to firm. So is it the speed that is the issue?
		
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It would seem not. They seemed to break off to the first couple of fences this year, but then again can't really tell without timings my memory could well be faulty! 

Maybe they take the actual fences faster? As in the horses don't "look" or "respect" the fences as much.

Or maybe it is the in-breeding & increased breeding of flat racers with NH racers making them more "spindly"

I don't really know but one thing I can say is I've learnt more about the GN (& NH racing) this evening than ever before! 

this is interesting reading: http://www.grandnational.org.uk/trends.php

Although a few trends got bucked with Neptune Collognes winning


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## SeasonalSituation (15 April 2012)

Yes. Carnage. Yes. Lots of falls. Yes. Sadly two deaths. 

But I do not think the Grand National should be banned, on the pure and simple fact that the trainers who send their horses out there every year, know a lot more about it then I do. Those horses are treat like royalty (on the most part), and the jockeys do make the right choices (pulling up etc). But we get the same every year with people calling for it to be banned and it'll likley continue every year with those thoughts. 

But yes a sad day and I can not imagine how it must feel driving home with an empty horsebox.


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## jenki13 (15 April 2012)

Truly said:



http://www.aintree.co.uk/pages/grand-national-winners/

Shows you times and going.

Very surprised the times aren't much quicker...it looks to have got faster on averagre by about 20 seconds but I would have expected more.
		
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Thanks! Don't know how I didn't find this was searching for times for ages!


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## Maesfen (15 April 2012)

criso said:



			I did hear on the radio that since the safety measures were introduced over the last few years deaths have gone up not down.

So I wondered if a few factors were coming together.

Smaller fences so horses going faster.
Drier springs which mean the ground is harder and faster, horses  more likely to fall at speed and more likely to do serious damage if they do.  More horses get tired and pulled up in the mud.
Have the horses changed? Less old fashioned chaser types who can jump but are slower partly due to the smaller fences.

Not sure, but if the number of deaths have increased then whatever changes are being made are the wrong changes.
		
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I've read through most of the pages and the posts that stand out for me saying what I think are few and far between but well worth thanking them for saying what I would have liked to, you just saved me the effort and trouble so thanks to Jessstickle, Dab, and Merry Crisis plus the above quote from Criso too; sums it up neatly.


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## Truly (15 April 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equine_fatalities_in_the_Grand_National
Seems the nineties had the most fatalities but can't find the most fallers


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## Equilibrium Ireland (15 April 2012)

It's early here so I'd thought I'd write a few thoughts. 

I spent most of my adult life in racing, mostly in my native America. I galloped some of the best horses of the day. I can say without a doubt that at least if something was wrong, no matter what, a horse was seen to straight away. They slept in beds befitting of their status as racehorses. In short they wanted for nothing. You're talking to someone that long ago soured on racing. A rider that one time took on the mighty NY racing asso because one of the horses she road broke down in the same spot as another horse. The track was bad all weekend. I wanted answers. And after I got my answers I shadowed the track matienence people and learned all I could about how just to keep a track. So not your average rider and I created a bit of stink to say the least. 

At any rate after moving to Ireland I bred my own horses. Owned my own and had a horse business. Horses came and went. I learned much more about horses just from having them. I also got to see ignorance in all forms which caused unnecessary suffering to all sorts of horses. Also having been a groom I can sort many problems myself as well as spot things a mile off. I can feel things the average horse owner can not. That's thanks to racing. I've been in jumper barns, eventer barns ect in which the level of care is nothing compared to what even my own get. Obviously not all or even the majority, but still horses are not being looked after correctly and they wonder why they aren't performing. But hey as long as they aren't in cruel racing that's good enough. 

I was upset about the GN too. I do try and keep things in perspective though.  Do changes need to be made? Sure I think the numbers should be reduced. I think breeding is also a factor. But commercially nobody wants a big slow jumper so that won't change. We applaud an 18yo going around a super tough event course. We applaud because nothing happened to him. We say look how awesome these old horses are. Yet if he was fatally injured everyone would be up in arms. We all love to think we have all the answers. I know I don't so I try to think of things in context. 

We all love to level greed and associate greed with money only. You see it in more forms than just money. Most of us have horses that perform for us in some way. Maybe we should just let them live natural. Oh wait a second horses die out in fields every single day. Some because a vet is too expensive or because people haven't got a clue. 

At any rate I'm sorry about the 2 horses that died. I really do hate to see any horse perish but it happens everyday to many horses beyond racehorse. Doesn't make it right or wrong and I'm not trying to lessen the blow.

Terri


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## guido16 (15 April 2012)

Terri
And on your superb post, this thread should end. 
Sadly, I doubt it will.


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## ribbons (15 April 2012)

Absolutely agree equilibrium Ireland. The suffering caused to horses generally by owners with little or no knowledge who claim to love them so much smacks me in the face everyday. Do they want experienced advice, no. Do they take veterinary warnings seriously, no. Do they think themselves cruel, absolutely no. Do they think GN cruel, absolutely yes. 

I am talking about people I witness every day, and am astounded at the things I see them doing, and then listening to their 'expert' opinion on racing. 
I despair.


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## rockysmum (15 April 2012)

ribbons said:



			Absolutely agree equilibrium Ireland. The suffering caused to horses generally by owners with little or no knowledge who claim to love them so much smacks me in the face everyday. Do they want experienced advice, no. Do they take veterinary warnings seriously, no. Do they think themselves cruel, absolutely no. Do they think GN cruel, absolutely yes. 

I am talking about people I witness every day, and am astounded at the things I see them doing, and then listening to their 'expert' opinion on racing. 
I despair.
		
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I agree, however these events are not on TV for the whole world to enjoy.

I am not anti racing, I enjoy the odd day at the races, along with a lot of other people.

However I dont like the GN.  The chances of horses being killed or permanently lamed are far high than other races (in this country)

Take this year, anyone entering had a 5% chance of their horse dying in the race.  Another 5% chance of serious injury (2 being treated)  Thats basically a 10% chance of loosing your horse one way or the other.  Perhaps more if you looked at how many will never race again.

Would any of us enter any competition with those kind of odds.  I dont think so.

In most races deaths are tragic accidents, in this one there is a certain inevitability about it.  

Doesn't seem right to me.

Oh and while everyone is talking about improving safety.  Have all the improvements been done to improve safety for the horse or the jockey.  Not that I am against rider safety, but perhaps the different fences mean horses fall differently.  Just a thought.


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## TheDogHouse (15 April 2012)

I put a bet on this year for the first time in years! I now feel very sad that I have contributed to the race where two horses died.    I wont be watching the National again!   

I dont understand why when a horse has unseated the jockey all the others have to wait that length of time, surely as in any other sport if a time is set for the event to start it should do.  It caused the tension to build for the others adding to the time it took for them to re-do the tape, causing more tension and then the amount of runners!  Why do they allow so many!

Sorry to rant but as someone pointed out the two horses that died were heavily featured in the build up and it puts it into perspective that two owners are travelling home with empty lorries!!!

This is only my opinion but as a horse lover and owner, yesterdays spectacle made me feel very sad.


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## Marydoll (15 April 2012)

Ive never worked in racing, and dont profess to be any sort of expert, i also think theres not a more fantastic sight that a field of racehorses at full tilt with their colourful jockeys on board, but i have 2 eyes that work and and in my humble opinion there are to many horses on the field in the grand national,a blind man running for a bus can see that.


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## _MizElz_ (15 April 2012)

Truly said:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equine_fatalities_in_the_Grand_National
Seems the nineties had the most fatalities but can't find the most fallers
		
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What stands out most to me, having read this, is that a significant proportion of fatalities seem to be related to horses running loose after falling. I don't know how they can stop this, but perhaps the prevention of loose horses running on is what they now need to focus on, rather than making fences smaller. 

It angers me that the public get so uptight about deaths in the National, yet they completely overlook the deaths that are occurring on a practically daily basis at all other racecourses. In the two days leading up to the National, there were deaths at Sedgefield, and at Fairyhouse....but nobody mentions them. Those who are calling for the National to be banned (and I'm not one of them) need to look at the bigger picture - if their problem is with horses being killed in racing, then it's not just the Grand National they should be targeting, but racing in general. And not just jump racing, either. 

For my part, I was devastated yesterday. My elation at Neptune's win (have followed him and supported him for many years) was completely destroyed upon hearing of the demise of those two brave little horses. Like many others who have responded on this thread, I think that the changes they are currently making are pointless - they need to look at HOW these injuries and fatalities are occurring. Synchronised did not die at Bechers, so the fence cannot be blamed for the loss of his life; According To Pete was a victim of circumstance, and the manner of his fall could have occurred at any fence. The problem, as I see it, lies with the loose horses. But how to stop this? I just don't know.


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## Black_Horse_White (15 April 2012)

I'd just like to say I don't watch it and I don't have a bet on it either, maybe the people who feel so strongly about this do the same next year. I'm glad no jockeys were hurt, RIP to the two that lost their lives.


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## amage (15 April 2012)

When you take into account that now fences can be bypassed then yes this year and last year have got faster plus the fences are smaller. If the fences were bigger you wouldn't have as many "taking their chance".  Bring the field back to 30 runners and leave the fences a bit meatier and you may get an improvement. I often find it interesting that no one ever gets het up about any horses injured in the foxhunters over the national course with amateurs up?!


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## Honeylight (15 April 2012)

I have been looking at the stats & found some interesting ones.
In the post war era the most fatalities were in 1954 when 4 horses lost their lives, questions were asked in the house & there was a big enquiry; how many runners? 29 one of the smallest fields ever.

Statistically more horses have been killed since the 1990s when the course was altered. This also might be to do with the different type of horse running in the race. Did anyone see Rough Quest in the parade, he looks like a hunter & has much more bone than say Synchronised who was by flat sire Sadlers Wells.

I have a couple of books on the Grand National I have had since I was in my early teens. Looking at the pictures two things strike me; the weather. People are in thick overcoats & it is raining wet in many & the horses are newly clipped out, no quarter marks or shiny coats. This suggests to me either a real change in the seasons or the race has become a lot later in the calendar.
The Aintree course is very free draining & dries out quickly, it is very flat & very fast. Maybe those fences were big for a purpose to slow horses down.

Another thing is that prior to the 1960s all the jump races were over the National Course & then there was a smaller version known as the Mildmay Course which was designed to prepare horses for the race, the Mildmay course resulted in a lot of falls & was removed in the late 1970s. Horses rarely get a foretaste of the National type fences now, there also used to be some good solid drop fences at Haydock & trainers often ran a horse here to see if it could cope with a drop. The course still holds the main trials for the race but over the softest & silliest jumps on any course; quite a number of experts were sorry to see this course altered & I think it was to put down all weather that never happened rather than a safety issue.
You can't just have one course so, so different & expect it all to be ok. We need drops on other courses, more trials, more use of the Grand National Course or nothing at all. I think there are only 5 races over the fences a year, perhaps there should be more.

However there is no big link between deaths, these things happen & the two horses were killed in accidents that could have happened on any course really.


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## SusannaF (15 April 2012)

amandap said:



			So we should all shut up them? Is that really what you are saying? 
Abuse takes many forms and much of it is done by humans who believe they are animal lovers... they love on their terms though. 
This thread is about the National so that is what I am objecting to. 
I can go on about Conklin Dairy Farms etc. etc. but don't think it is relevant to this thread. 

Click to expand...

Nope, I'm not saying we should all shut up. I'm saying that I can't leap on board the whole "condemn the Grand National out of hand" bandwagon because I think I'm pretty compromised.

I've posted elsewhere (in Latest News) about my fears that if something doesn't improve in racing it'll go the way of hunting. I don't want the baby thrown out with the bathwater. In Australia the fatality rate is lower than in the UK and far lower than in the US, and there is a very serious campaign up and running to ban all jump racing. I think it's even been banned in certain states.

What bothers me is that the general public and a lot of people on this thread see it in black and white terms. ie. "All racing is cruel and the owners/trainers are greedy". Rather than the more realistic, "how can we minimise casualties in racing while accepting that there will always be some fatalities?"

The changing public perception of animals is part of my field of study as a writer, and I think we're in danger of having people who know nothing about horses condemning the horse industry (and all horse owners) as cruel and inhumane etc etc etc.

To my mind, everyone needs to be aware of what JessTickle called our "duty of care" to animals and also to be realistic about the fact that we, as a species, use and consume animals unneccessarily for our own pleasure.


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## criso (15 April 2012)

Truly said:



http://www.aintree.co.uk/pages/grand-national-winners/

Shows you times and going.

Very surprised the times aren't much quicker...it looks to have got faster on averagre by about 20 seconds but I would have expected more.
		
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But horses could starting off going quicker but not finishing. 

When you look at the figures the 90s and 00s are the worst decades which is when they starting tweaking the course with Bechers being changed in 1989.

I don't know how much you can trust the really early figures but assume 60's 70's and 80's are accurate and there were fewer fatalities.


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## lannerch (15 April 2012)

I disagree beechers was not part of according to Petes death yes he was brought down by another horse however that other horse had fallen due to beechers! 
In a very roundabout way it was a major part in both deaths this year . 
So drop fences should be reviewed as certainly should the size of the field why do many? Fewer horses more space to avoid the fewer fallers, simple!


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## Dab (15 April 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Take this year, anyone entering had a 5% chance of their horse dying in the race.  Another 5% chance of serious injury (2 being treated)  Thats basically a 10% chance of loosing your horse one way or the other.  Perhaps more if you looked at how many will never race again.

Would any of us enter any competition with those kind of odds.  I dont think so.
		
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Not sure i follow the stats? Are these based on the outcome of this years race alone or those taken over say a 20 year period?

But nevertheless the most recent two races has resulted in two fatalities on course. Not sure it is down to speed when you look at the times, going and number of runners as we had similiar times in 95, 96 and 97 on good going but with fewer fatalities. 

Maybe the jocks are more gung-ho, horses are not prepared well enough, breed differently, fences too small, ground faster, unfortunate set of circumstances, the planets were mis-aligned. Whatever the reason, it should be investigated in an un-biased manor and issues addressed, knee-jerk reactions and mass hysteria never solves anything.


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## mon (15 April 2012)

Has the standard of horse and their ability to look after them selves deteriorated? Red Rum by all talk was little jumped a more difficult course and managed to jum 150 fences with hardly a peck was he just a genius or the higher fences made horse and jockey look after themselves more?


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## tristar (15 April 2012)

as a believer in fate or whatever you want to call it, the tragic  death of such a high profile and successful horse such as syncronised, says to me that we are being shown we are doing something wrong, fate is trying educate us, and the ripple effect of this should force us all to examine the lives of horses  in  the broadest sense, from how we ride and train our horses to how their daily lives are managed, and how what we do to them, whether hacking out through to top performance and see where we are going wrong.


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## dancebaben (15 April 2012)

Not read the other replies but my thoughts are that they need to make qualifying for the national harder and to cap the number of horses in the race if nothing else. 

Forty horses whittle down very quickly when fallers take out other horses. 

I wonder if the number of fallers and accidents would reduce if there were only twenty allowed to race?

It was sad to hear about the horses yesterday - I didn't watch it because it upsets me to watch them go down.


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## fburton (15 April 2012)

_MizElz_ said:



			It angers me that the public get so uptight about deaths in the National, yet they completely overlook the deaths that are occurring on a practically daily basis at all other racecourses. In the two days leading up to the National, there were deaths at Sedgefield, and at Fairyhouse....but nobody mentions them. Those who are calling for the National to be banned (and I'm not one of them) need to look at the bigger picture - if their problem is with horses being killed in racing, then it's not just the Grand National they should be targeting, but racing in general. And not just jump racing, either.
		
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What do you think is the solution to this problem of ignorance - better reporting in the news, a high-profile documentary or two about racing warts and all?


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## Clofox (15 April 2012)

I've been to racing before and loved the atmosphere and everything, but this year the GN has shocked me. 
All i can say is RIP to those beautiful talented horses who unfortuantley lost there lives,sleep tight Xxx


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## Tinseltoes (15 April 2012)

In my opinion I thing the grand national should be sorted ASAP out by either by lowering and having less fences,shortening the field OR better still get rid of the grand national completely as its utter greed and too darn dangerous for those poor horses.
Though as we know nothing will change and we will be having this discussion again next year. (sighs).


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## Elf On A Shelf (15 April 2012)

As McCain put it - where there's livestock there's dead stock. Cows are bred for meat. Sheep are bred for meat. Pigs are bred for meat. If one dies in its field before it's date with a cleaver is there such an uproar? Tb's are bred to race.


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## WandaMare (15 April 2012)

EKW said:



			As McCain put it - where there's livestock there's dead stock. Cows are bred for meat. Sheep are bred for meat. Pigs are bred for meat. If one dies in its field before it's date with a cleaver is there such an uproar? Tb's are bred to race.
		
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McCain was a racehorse trainer so he is bound to justify his own business! Racing is a sport not a form of farming, the two are completely different. People don't pay to watch farming, they watch sport for entertainment and pleasure.


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## amandap (15 April 2012)

EKW said:



			As McCain put it - where there's livestock there's dead stock. Cows are bred for meat. Sheep are bred for meat. Pigs are bred for meat. If one dies in its field before it's date with a cleaver is there such an uproar? Tb's are bred to race.
		
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Perhaps breeding horses for meat instead is the answer then. There would be no/less fuss to make anyone question? We could bet on which will make it to the "cleaver" alive!  
Welfare and ethics would be a lot simpler to sort out with horses 'batting' for other meat animals in UK. 

I'll just hope there is less carnage next year...  The GN gets so much stick because it is high profile but all racing needs to take a long hard look in the mirror imo. Horses (and other animals) are living, sentient beings despite what many seem to think. It's us that puts a value, be that a lot, little or none, on something living. Only we humans say that we are 'worth' more than animals in general.


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## Jaycee (15 April 2012)

Every year it makes me glad that my ex-racehorse never made it to Aintree!  He was injured earlier in the year that he should have run!  He was one of the lucky ones in away as he never raced again, and is living the life of riley!  Every racehorse lost in racing is tragic, alot don't even get a mention, the Grand National is such a high profile race that there will also be an outcry if horses lose their lifes.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (15 April 2012)

To the person who reported my posts on this thread - 
1 Don't be jel, be reem,
2 Be a lover, not a fighter,
3 Make love, not war,

Bless you and all who sail in you.


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## Mariposa (15 April 2012)

tractor said:



			It's the first year that I've really felt sad - both horses looked so well, and were focussed on heavily in the build up.
		
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I didn't think Synchronised look well, I thought he looked far too light for my liking. His coat was dull, he just didn't look right - in my opinion. There was no sparkle, he looks very different to how he looked at Cheltenham.

If you compared him to some of the others  - for example Ballabrigs, who looks sleek, well covered and shiney and looked really up for it - there was no comparison. 

I am very pro-racing, my grandfather was a National Hunt trainer so I am all for it...but I found the GN very hard to stomach this year.


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## Wagtail (15 April 2012)

We have had a lot of discussion regarding hypocrisy in that people are prepared to eat meat, wear leather etc, but yet think the GN is cruel. We have also had some people say that you cannot compare meat animals with horses etc. I can see all sides to these arguments, even though I do think they are irrelevant to whether or not the GN should be banned. Whether or not it is a cruel race, should be banned etc, is a subject which should be free for all to debate regardless of whether they themselves condone any form of cruelty in other areas of their lives (such as the way livestock is transported and slaughtered). 

For the record, I don't eat meat, but don't think that those that do should not be allowed to suggest that they find the GN cruel. Also, for the record, I don't think other animals that are bred for meat should be treated any less well than horses. They are not less important and do not suffer less than a horse would in a similar situation. But, of course, this is all irrelevant to the current discussion.

The main difference IMO between eating meat and the GN, is that people eat meat for food, and do not televise the slaughter and take bets as to which animal will escape. I used to be a fan of the GN, but now find it difficult to understand why people would want to watch something where they have an extremely high chance of seeing an animal die before their eyes. To say they didn't suffer is rubbish. According to Pete continued with a broken leg. He was in pain for quite a while before he was PTS. We have also had horses such as Hear the echo collapse and die on the run up. Another a few years ago finished fifth, bless his soul, and collapsed and died after the race. He must have suffered SO much to literally be galloped to death.


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## Tinseltoes (15 April 2012)

there is now a petition on FB to BAN the grand national.


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## lachlanandmarcus (15 April 2012)

I do wish people would stop saying lower the fences to make it safer. Lowering the fences is, along with increasing the prize money exactly what has made it UNsafe. More modifications with lowering of fences will just make that worse, unless you basically remove everything that makes the GN different than other races, and if you do that, it aint the Grand National 

Trying to appease the animals rights people and trying to make it a 'top class' race with high minimum ratings is the road to ruin. 

The race should be run a bit earlier so noone is tempted to have a crack at it after Cheltenham and the ground has more chance of being softer, over bigger fences to make the horses slow down and respect them, and with less prize money to deter the greedy contingent. That way, it will be contested by the Ballabriggs of this world and not the general stamp of chaser, however top class. For me that would result in fewer falls. 

The thing that is really telling about this years race is there were hardly any refusals apart from Vic Venturi and to me that is a warning sign, it is saying the fences are not clearly big enough for horses to make a decision about whether or not they fancy them, and are also approaching too fast to be able to put any decision about putting on the brakes.

I would also like to see the bypass fence gaps move reversed as I think it is causing more fatalities in the loose horses (eg Synchronised and another a couple of years back) than it is saving in the prevention of horses being 'taken out'. 

The only 'softening' change I would support would be the reduction in numbers to 30, to give a better chance of seeing some space at the fence.


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## Dab (15 April 2012)

Wagtail said:



			We have had a lot of discussion regarding hypocrisy in that people are prepared to eat meat, wear leather etc, but yet think the GN is cruel. We have also had some people say that you cannot compare meat animals with horses etc. I can see all sides to these arguments, even though I do think they are irrelevant to whether or not the GN should be banned. Whether or not it is a cruel race, should be banned etc, is a subject which should be free for all to debate regardless of whether they themselves condone any form of cruelty in other areas of their lives (such as the way livestock is transported and slaughtered). 

For the record, I don't eat meat, but don't think that those that do should not be allowed to suggest that they find the GN cruel. Also, for the record, I don't think other animals that are bred for meat should be treated any less well than horses. They are not less important and do not suffer less than a horse would in a similar situation. But, of course, this is all irrelevant to the current discussion.

The main difference IMO between eating meat and the GN, is that people eat meat for food, and do not televise the slaughter and take bets as to which animal will escape. I used to be a fan of the GN, but now find it difficult to understand why people would want to watch something where they have an extremely high chance of seeing an animal die before their eyes. To say they didn't suffer is rubbish. According to Pete continued with a broken leg. He was in pain for quite a while before he was PTS. We have also had horses such as Hear the echo collapse and die on the run up. Another a few years ago finished fifth, bless his soul, and collapsed and died after the race. He must have suffered SO much to literally be galloped to death.
		
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With regard to the point relating to hypocrisy and meat eating, whilst some people may be making this point, there are others who are saying that it is hypocritical to point the finger at racing and the National when those same people are very well prepared to turn a blind eye to the very many cases of horse cruelty that go on outside of racing.

It would appear that some people choose to hold racing to much higher standards than other horse professional and non-professionals alike, purely because they do not 'like' the sport or for other reasons that they do not want to be made public, or on the pretext that it is a sport or only for human entertainment.

With the National (this year or last) for example the fatalities happened in front of your eyes, quickly and in some cases plain view. There is no doubt that it draws immediate attention to the horses blight, it is not pleasant viewing and most people would prefer that these fatalities did not happen, and the best possible measures need to be taken to ensure that as much risk as possible is eliminated.

Furthermore, as some have pointed out when cruelty in other equine spheres is mentioned there is a call-out 'two wrongs don't make a right', this is true, but the arguement for banning racing would hold more weight if those individuals calling for a ban (and this is in general terms) looked at all equine spheres and applied the same standards across the board.


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## Como (15 April 2012)

The National is an appalling spectacle and has been for as long as I can remember. It is the modern day equivalent of a gladiator fight; the general public love it for the falls and fatalities. It is a disgrace to the beautiful sport of horse racing. The only important thing to everyone involved is money - the owner, trainers, gamblers and jockeys. Of course TBs are bred to race, but does that mean they should be exploited for the baying masses by this joke of a race? Ban the National I say. It is not a case of making it safer, then no one would watch. Just get rid of this national embarrassment.


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## ribbons (15 April 2012)

Ditto to the above by Dab.

And I know some of those shouting the loudest about racing cruelty are the self same people inflicting suffering on their own horses. I know because I see it.


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## Tinseltoes (15 April 2012)

For those of you who think it should be banned (me for one) heres a petition.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/ban-the-race/


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## minesadouble (15 April 2012)

ribbons said:



			Ditto to the above by Dab.

And I know some of those shouting the loudest about racing cruelty are the self same people inflicting suffering on their own horses. I know because I see it.
		
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Well said!! I'm sick of people slating racing while their horse stands in it's box suffering from laminitis caused it's well meaning owner's ignorance. I see people riding their horses while they are unsound because they are too THICK to realise and even when it is pointed out deny the horse is unsound and continue. Don't even get me started on horses tethered or kept on allotments (of which in my area there are many).

There is one ex-livery from our yard who slates the National and calls for jump racing to be banned while her own horses look like walking skeletons!

Just because a horse death is in the public eye does not make it 'worse' than the thousands of accidental deaths that occur but are never reported.

It also boils my blood when people talk about the race being run in the name of 'greed' - Greed in my opinion doesn't come into it for the owners of the runners, if they were that financially astute they wouldn't own a racehorse in the first place!! Anyone who competes their horse is seeking achivement. I compete my horses and want them to win - who that competes does not want to win??? It's not greed, it's seeking achievement - and anyone who competes in ANY sphere is guilty of that!

If I had the choice between coming back to this life as a NH horse or a 'pet' horse owned by a well meaning but ignorant bunny hugger I know which I would choose!!!!


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## Wagtail (15 April 2012)

The person who set up the petition needs to spell 'their' correctly (not 'there') if they do not want to put people off. Badly spelt petitions will put me off every time.


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## Tinseltoes (15 April 2012)

Wagtail said:



			The person who set up the petition needs to spell 'their' correctly (not 'there') if they do not want to put people off. Badly spelt petitions will put me off every time.
		
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Not sure who set it up.It was posted on FB


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## ribbons (15 April 2012)

Minesadouble, it is enough to have you tearing your hair out isn't it.
My old dad used to say, there are horse people and then there are people who keep horses.
In his day there were more of the former, sadly (for the horses) there now  seem to be more of the latter.


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## minesadouble (15 April 2012)

Tinseltoes said:



			For those of you who think it should be banned (me for one) heres a petition.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/ban-the-race/

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Errmmm... just clicked on that link - is there a reason why the picture at the top left is actually of an Eventer rather than a racehorse!!

I just give up with this forum!


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## A Guilding (15 April 2012)

minesadouble said:



			Errmmm... just clicked on that link - is there a reason why the picture at the top left is actually of an Eventer rather than a racehorse!!

I just give up with this forum!
		
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I'm new to this literacy thing but in the petition  isn't downward one word?


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## Tinseltoes (15 April 2012)

minesadouble said:



			Errmmm... just clicked on that link - is there a reason why the picture at the top left is actually of an Eventer rather than a racehorse!!

I just give up with this forum!
		
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Don't know why.Someone on FB did mention it to someone.Not sure if they will change pic or not.No clue.Nothing to do with me.


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## Tnavas (15 April 2012)

Finally got to see the race via a facebook link and to be honest it wasn't the carnage I had been expecting!

This is the ultimate race! It is there to test the horses ability to jump, its courage and stamina. That it does well. More horses finished than I've seen in a long time which to me means that the horses were up to the course.

I would far rather see horses jump a lower fence than horses refusing, as the refusers often take out other horses immediately beside and behind them. 

Horses fall in eventing, showjumping and hunting, it is one of the hazards of jumping at any level. Get the stride wrong and a fall may be a consequence.

I think though that the field definately needs to be reduced in number so that horses aren't compacted in tight groups over the same part of the fence. 

http://www.grand-national.net/history.htm


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## Dab (15 April 2012)

Tinseltoes said:



			Not sure who set it up.It was posted on FB
		
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Looks like it was 'set-up' in 2007? Not really sure if it is just having a 'pop' at racing or calling for a ban of the National. It doesn't make any specific points regarding the National.


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## ribbons (15 April 2012)

If you actually read the petition, especially paragraph headed raced to death, it looks like it's been written by a child, or reminds me of scam emails answering ads that are obviously written by someone who's first language is not English. It's not a petition I would take seriously even if I agreed with it's subject. (which I don't)


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## Holly Hocks (15 April 2012)

I'm still at a loss as to why there has been such an outcry over one race.  It's extremely sad that two superb horses were lost, but if people want it banned as they think it is animal cruelty  - and by this they mean that it is cruel because horses have died, then yes, there is a comparison to farming.  If you think animals dying is cruel, then please ensure you are vegan (vegetarian simply isn't enough - milk production isn't like the TV adverts).

Strangely I don't want to see the GN banned - but I am vegetarian - not because I don't want the animals killed, but because I have seen first hand how these farm animals are kept and I simply don't agree with what I've seen.  I don't have a problem with the animals being used for meat, but I do have a problem with the way they live their lives beforehand.  I bet that all the animals in yesterdays GN had lived or are still living superbly luxurious lives. 

As I said on the other thread, the other equestrian sports have a lot to answer for - only the other day I was talking to someone who's friend had bought a £40k dressage horse as a foal - it was dead by the time it was five - too much too young - totally knackered.  But these figures aren't made public.
And I've seen such violent abuse at my local riding club by a pony club instructor that I wished I'd filmed it and shamed her on this forum...


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## rockysmum (15 April 2012)

I personally dont understand the comments about other types of cruelty.

Surely two wrongs dont make a right.  If something is cruel, its cruel, regardless of whether there are worse things going on in the world.  Should people only take action on the worst cases and leave the rest?


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## Holly Hocks (15 April 2012)

Not at all - that's my point - if someone is going to complain that the death of horses is cruel, then they should take a look at themselves and realise that what they've eaten for their Sunday dinner has also suffered the same fate.  I find it hypocritical that's all.
And there are also endless posters on here who always quote that same phrase "there's fates worse than death", yet find these deaths unacceptable.


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## lannerch (15 April 2012)

Just read on compitition forum sharon hunt sadly had to have her horse cavalier Bertie put down on course at Weston today due to a fracture ( rip Bertie and my condolences to piir Sharon) 
But now should we not be discussing banning eventing


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## millikins (15 April 2012)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			I do wish people would stop saying lower the fences to make it safer. Lowering the fences is, along with increasing the prize money exactly what has made it UNsafe. More modifications with lowering of fences will just make that worse, unless you basically remove everything that makes the GN different than other races, and if you do that, it aint the Grand National 

Trying to appease the animals rights people and trying to make it a 'top class' race with high minimum ratings is the road to ruin. 

The race should be run a bit earlier so noone is tempted to have a crack at it after Cheltenham and the ground has more chance of being softer, over bigger fences to make the horses slow down and respect them, and with less prize money to deter the greedy contingent. That way, it will be contested by the Ballabriggs of this world and not the general stamp of chaser, however top class. For me that would result in fewer falls. 

The thing that is really telling about this years race is there were hardly any refusals apart from Vic Venturi and to me that is a warning sign, it is saying the fences are not clearly big enough for horses to make a decision about whether or not they fancy them, and are also approaching too fast to be able to put any decision about putting on the brakes.

I would also like to see the bypass fence gaps move reversed as I think it is causing more fatalities in the loose horses (eg Synchronised and another a couple of years back) than it is saving in the prevention of horses being 'taken out'. 

The only 'softening' change I would support would be the reduction in numbers to 30, to give a better chance of seeing some space at the fence.
		
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Agree with this. Slightly off topic, on another thread which now I can't find, the RSPCA predictably said it was "totally unacceptable" (re the deaths) and that they thought the placings should be reversed due to whip abuse. Does anyone know if the winner earned a whip ban, (nothing in DT) or are the RSPCA perhaps trying to deflect attention from their signal failure to make the race "safer" ?


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## vikkibeth (16 April 2012)

Dancing Queen said:



			I dislike this race as there are far too many runners and riders and there are far too many deaths, needless deaths for my liking.

I would never put my horses into a race/competition where i knew that there was a very strong chance they would be killed. Thats because i love my horses, some may argue as pets, but these racehorses are business and seen as business commodities. There probably is a fondness, maybe love from the stablehand and a fondness from the trainer, but not a true 'love'. 

Thats my opinion, yes there are deaths in many other equine sports, even in field, but to knowingly put your animal in that position is an entirely different matter.

The GN divides people, some love it, some hate it, some want it banned, some want it to remain a british treasure. 

What I want is peace for these beautiful animals that have lost their lives fulfilling their masters desire. I hope and pray that something is done with the race so that no more fatalities occur, i fear next time it maybe a jockey who loses his life.

RIP Beautiful ones xx
		
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Said perfectly! With a huge genuine sadness RIP.


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## touchstone (16 April 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			Not at all - that's my point - if someone is going to complain that the death of horses is cruel, then they should take a look at themselves and realise that what they've eaten for their Sunday dinner has also suffered the same fate.  I find it hypocritical that's all.
And there are also endless posters on here who always quote that same phrase "there's fates worse than death", yet find these deaths unacceptable.
		
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I think that people find *unnecessary* deaths unacceptable; does it mean that someone should not be allowed an opinion because they eat meat?  I eat beef but don't agree with bullfighting and I know what kind of life the animal has had beforehand with the meat I eat.

Apparently the owners of Pete are devastated and have said they wish they had never run him and will never run a horse in it again.

For me I found the number of fallers worrying, I think we are lucky that only two horses died.


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## Wagtail (16 April 2012)

lannerch said:



			Just read on compitition forum sharon hunt sadly had to have her horse cavalier Bertie put down on course at Weston today due to a fracture ( rip Bertie and my condolences to piir Sharon) 
But now should we not be discussing banning eventing
		
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Of course not. How many horses per hundred lose their lives when eventing? Is it more like one in a thousand? In the GN it is around 4 in a hundred. It is approaching one in 20! If one in 20 eventing horses died every time there was an event then of course we would start to think about banning it. As it is, I don't think the statistics are much greater than horses out in the field. Over the years I have competed show jumping dressage and hunter trials. I have only once had an injury sustained by my horse and that was because she stood on her reins when I wasn't paying attention whilst I was watching another competitor. However, over the years, 3 of my horses have sustained injuries in the field that resulted in two being PTS and one being retired early. Now I no longer turnout in the fields in muddy conditions. They stay in the all weather.


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## aimsymc (16 April 2012)

I realise im joining this post a bit late....... But here goes, I love national hunt racing and enjoy following the horses and having the occasional bet. I always put a bet (or 2) on the national and done the same this year and put money on neptune collonges (sp) and according to pete. I always get a buzz from watchin it win or lose. 

TBH after watching it this year I felt sick! Was totally gutted about horse deaths and actually had a bubble to myself after. I usually always defend the GN and am not calling for it to be barred, just feel there is to many runners, as already been said according to pete was brought down. Maybe this wouldnt change anything im no expert. Just not to sure how I feel about it anymore.

I know that theese horses are very well cared for and loved and dont think for a minute that the owners/trainers/grooms think "its just a horse".
sorry going on a bit now!!


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## aimsymc (16 April 2012)

Just to be controversial..... Im not sure th rspca would be getting as involved if it hadnt been such a high profile horse that was pts!! *Ducking from missiles*


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## Elf On A Shelf (16 April 2012)

The rspca dont have a bloody clue! They pander to the bunny huggers and dont seek advice from people who have a clue.


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## Orangehorse (16 April 2012)

I am with Jesstickle on this one.  Cattle are bred to be eaten, racehorses are bred to race, that is their job and they get a lot of care and attention to make sure that they do the job.  Racing is an industry that puts a lot of money into the horse world as a whole and the horse is its raw material.

Of course I was sad that the horses died, I would much prefer to see them all come home safely and I bet the racecourse authorities were horrified, after all their attempts of appeasement.  The qualifying conditions have been increased, the jockey's qualifications have been increased, yet still those horses loose their life.

But any horse galloping as fast as it can and jumping fences at speed is in the "at risk" situation.  One reason I don't like point to points much is the high level of falls - but it is not on TV.

As for other horse sports - I remember having a similar conversation about eventing, as the attrition rate is huge.  If you take the entries from a typical one day event, how many never carry on due to injury sustained in training or competition?  But it isn't public, so no-one gets het up about it.  There also seem to be an awful lot of dressage horses that retire through injury.  Drag hunting used to have the same insurance rating as racing.

I wish people so upset about the deaths of two racehorses would put their energies into protesting against an awful lot of worse horse abuse around the world and in this country - starting with live horse transport for slaughter across Europe.


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## Wagtail (16 April 2012)

Orangehorse, do you think one in twenty horses dying is an acceptable level for one race?

Why does the fact that there is all sorts of cruelty going on against horses have anything to do with the Grand National?


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## Flame_ (16 April 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Orangehorse, do you think one in twenty horses dying is an acceptable level for one race?

Why does the fact that there is all sorts of cruelty going on against horses have anything to do with the Grand National?
		
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The comparison of the GN against eventing across the board isn't quite fair. Yes compare racing against eventing stats but its only really fair to compare the GN on its own, the ultimate racing test, against, say Badminton on its own, or maybe Express Eventing which did its own good share of horse damage.

It has to do with it because it puts in perspective the death of two racehorses against the death of shedloads of other horses IYSWIM. I'd go so far as to say *most* horses die before their time because we use them, so it just seems random to get so upset about two that just happen to have been on the tele.


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## Natch (16 April 2012)

Dear the Indignant and Ill-informed of the world,

(yes, that includes a worryingly high number of contributors to this thread)

1) there is an outcry over the Grand National because it is in the public eye - people KNOW about it. People don't necessarily know about the welfare concerns in other races, eventing, dressage, farm animals etc. 

2) I don't think its helpful to say things like "you need to be vegan before you can comment"... it has no logical basis to claim that people are not allowed an opinion on the GN because they eat meat... few things in life are that black and white, and this isn't one of them. 

3) The deaths in the GN are tragic because they are without a purpose, traumatic, and benefit nobody. I do not think that the death of a horse as a result of having been put through an enormously huge physical challenge can be compared with an animal dying in a humane manner at an abbatoir. 

4) To the people who say these horses live luxurious lives and want for nothing when at home... have you been to the thoroughbred rehabilitation centres? Have you seen the horses who have broken down through training, because they were bred for speed above all else, because few people involved in breeding them really care if the horse stays sound after the age of 3, 5, 10...? Have you seen the horses who simply cannot cope with being turned out to grass because they've never known it, likewise can't have companions, or have you read the papers regarding the high % incidence of stereotypical behaviours and ulcers in racehorses? This "cushy, perfect" life the racehorses are given, where exactly is it? Because all I see is horses kept to high _human _standards. 

5) The RSPCA would be involved if the deaths hadn't been of such high profile horses, (because they are every year, and many animal welfare groups oppose racing in general for the same principals) and they DO work with knowledgeable authorities on the subject of racing (e.g. the amendment of legislation regarding the use of whips, which I would argue is now more ambiguous than before because the BHA are trying to please the bunny huggers rather than stick purely to fact).

Yours,

Disgruntled of disgruntledom.


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## BeckyD (16 April 2012)

fburton said:



			So what do you think about going to cross country events if they had the same fatality stats, and whether they should still be run?
		
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This is an easy/glib question to ask, without regard for how it can actually be answered.

I'd like to try to answer, as I can see where Jesstickle is coming from and I share some of her views.

The difference for me, is something that Jesstickle has already alluded to.  GN horses are bred for this purpose.  They are kept as kings (in many cases) for this very purpose.  They exist to run in races.  They have been bred/trained by people who are not blind to the risks that these horses take, and the jockeys are also well aware.

Most horses who do XC/hunter trials/dressage do so for our (relatively low-risk) enjoyment.  We do not have the history of that many horses dying doing XC or dressage.  We cannot extrapolate it because in our minds, the two things do not co-exist.  I imagine that if that many horses did die doing XC or dressage etc, it would be a very different selection of horses that did it and different people.  I for one wouldn't entertain competing (myself or my horse) in such a dangerous sport.  

I'm a big softy and I worship my horse, but not all people feel the same as I do.  I have to say that this is the first year for me where I found the GN very very difficult to watch and I *probably* won't watch it next year.  I have always loved the challenge, the spectacle and the drama of it all, but I find that I can't cope with watching so many horses fall, any more.  I don't wish to ban it.  

I just hope that every step possible can be taken to mitigate the risks to horse and human who take part.


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## Alec Swan (16 April 2012)

I've followed this with considerable interest.  On the one hand we have those who would argue that "It's only a horse",  and on the other,  those who hate racing, period.  There also seems to be a middle road group,  which I suspect holds the greatest number,  and who I'd join.

Let's consider the facts,  again;

The Grand National used to have a maximum of 64 starters,  but because of the number of fatal falls,  that was cut to 40 starters.  In the view of many,  that's still too many.

New safety measures have been put in place,  but it seems to me having listened to the arguments of many,  on here,  that the situation has actually worsened.

Racing,  particularly NH cannot continue,  taking a careless approach to animal welfare,  and that's what's actually under discussion.  A poster,  someway back said that they thought that 15 finishers out of 40 was quite a good result.  Few,  I suspect,  would agree with that.

There's also some validity in the argument that for Eventing,  if 2 horses out of every 40,  who ran at Burghley or Badminton,  lost its life,  then something would be said.  There'd be uproar.  Racing and Eventing are two separate disciplines,  I accept,  but when both are run at the pinnacle of excellence,  and one provides a disproportionate number of fatalities,  then the world is entitled to ask questions,  I feel.

On the other side of the argument,  it has to be understood that owners,  trainers,  and jockeys,  accept the risks,  and do their best to mitigate the risks of death or injury to either horse or rider,  and their views should be considered.

If I owned a Gold Cup winner,  it certainly wouldn't have been put at such risk,  unless of course,  it was just a matter of money,  with little thought for the animal itself.  My heart goes out to the owners of A_t_P.  They are,  so I understand,  devastated.

I'm a stout and determined fan of NH racing,  but there are occasions when I find that we really do need to be looking at the way that some races are run.  In short,  we need to get our act together,  before _"authority"_ takes the options away from us.

Alec.


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## amandap (16 April 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			but there are occasions when I find that we really do need to be looking at the way that some races are run.  In short,  we need to get our act together,  before _"authority"_ takes the options away from us.
		
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Good post Alec and I, especially, 100% agree with this.

I also strongly agree with Naturally's point about racers being "kept like kings" with lovely fluffy beds etc! This really grates on me personally because it is a human concept and has nothing whatsoever to do with the true needs of horses. The horses are shouting for change with ulcers, cribbing, broken bodies and minds etc. Yes there are some who survive apparently intact but far too many don't and the wastage of non performers is also something that needs addressing urgently imo.


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## biddy600 (16 April 2012)

Well! it really took the Grand out of "Grand National".  The start was a complete farce and embarrasment and the deaths of two horses a disaster.

It is an achievement for a horse to finish the National but so many starters only make it more dangerous.  Reduce the number to a maximum of 20 of the best chasers.  Make qualifying for the National an event in itself.  

The fact that these horses will then gallop 4.5 miles over 30 fences is what makes it a test of great stamina and skill but we DON'T want this to be life-threatening.  This sort of tragedy is not acceptable.  Years ago formula 1 drivers lost their lives racing but not anymore.  Perhaps horse racing authorities should look at what was done on the motor racing world to make it safer.


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## tristar (16 April 2012)

syncronised was a horse who has proved himself and had as good a chance as any of getting round the national, sadly he is no more, i've often been unexcited by the actual winner of this race because it seems to me that if you are unlucky and get brought down there's nothing you can do to avoid it, as in sycronised's case, therefore it is not a true and fair race merely a barbaric spectacle in which the actual  best horse does not very often win.


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## amandap (16 April 2012)

Aintree have set up a complaints line via facebook. Directlink to the cl. http://www.aintree.co.uk/forms/contact/?d=10


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## Maesfen (16 April 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			New safety measures have been put in place,  but it seems to me having listened to the arguments of many,  on here,  that the situation has actually worsened.

There's also some validity in the argument that for Eventing,  if 2 horses out of every 40,  who ran at Burghley or Badminton,  lost its life,  then something would be said.  There'd be uproar.  Racing and Eventing are two separate disciplines,  I accept,  but when both are run at the pinnacle of excellence,  and one provides a disproportionate number of fatalities,  then the world is entitled to ask questions,  I feel.
		
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Many of those safety measures were insisted upon by the RSPCA.  Now we know they have always been against the race but is this their back handed way of doing it?  Horses jumped the previous larger courses so much better, in a better rhythm and not as fast; all the making smaller fences has compounded the problem, not helped one little bit.
Sorry keep adding to this!  Did you notice how many loose horses continued this year, far more than normal as usually a lot, once fallen pull themselves up having had enough enabling them to be caught by course staff; this didn't happen this year, they hardly caught any.

Yes, there would be validity if that happened in eventing because those horses go around one at a time supposedly with an experienced rider who is meant to have walked the course and noted what they think would be the troublesome fences; they are against the course designer, nobody else, they do not have to look out for other riders or being brought down by loose horses so I think that's a pretty poor comparison myself.


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## kp31 (16 April 2012)

biddy600 said:



			Well! it really took the Grand out of "Grand National".  The start was a complete farce and embarrasment and the deaths of two horses a disaster.

It is an achievement for a horse to finish the National but so many starters only make it more dangerous.  Reduce the number to a maximum of 20 of the best chasers.  Make qualifying for the National an event in itself.  

The fact that these horses will then gallop 4.5 miles over 30 fences is what makes it a test of great stamina and skill but we DON'T want this to be life-threatening.  This sort of tragedy is not acceptable.  Years ago formula 1 drivers lost their lives racing but not anymore.  Perhaps horse racing authorities should look at what was done on the motor racing world to make it safer.
		
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Have to agree with all this and is what i have been saying since this awful event on Saturday, that i am so glad i did not watch.

I haven't read the whole thread just snippets. Having just had the same conversation at work with a non horsey person, he perfectly understood where i was coming from. I explained that not all these horses lived like kings only the top few and the sheer wastage in racing is just massive. He was very shocked and even he said they needed to be fewer runners and that with them reducing the height of the fences the horses seemed to gain more speed incurring more injury. 

Saturday was a very sad day for racing and the equine world.


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## marmalade76 (16 April 2012)

Merry Crisis said:



			A long time ago when the National had huge fences, before all the modifications, the horses that ran in the race were National Hunt horses, they were more like middle weights. We had NH stallions to put on our substantial mares, not many "dual pupose" stallions about then, some could have up to 9ins of bone. They were not speed machines they had staminer and the differance between chaser and flat horse was clear to anyone with a pair of eyes. The course was a fair test, the pace was slower and they hacked into the fences got into the bottom of them and jumped. Sadly we have now a Park type course with 40 runners all going flat out. I dont think we will see less carnage all the time we have horses racing in the GN that are flat bred.
		
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Great post, but, and correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the grestest National horse ever flat bred??

I do agree, Suny Bay in particular (although he was not a GN winner), sticks in my mind as looking like a proper hunter.


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## Double_choc_lab (16 April 2012)

For those who have questioned the fact that speed seems to of been the major factor and the ground was "good" the older GNs were held earlier in the year  when there was more chance of softer or deeper going thus slowing everyone down.  The National of 1959 was held on 21st March not mid April.  How do I know - I was born as the race was run.

Mick Fitz also made a good point - since the levelling of the landing at Beechers everyone now goes for the inside which is the shorter route.  Previously if you spread out the drop was less so only the brave favoured the inside.

WHW very good on the BBC this morning no kneejerk reaction, they said we need time to review and analyse.


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## fburton (16 April 2012)

minesadouble said:



			I'm sick of people slating racing while their horse stands in it's box suffering from laminitis caused it's well meaning owner's ignorance.
		
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Do you have anyone particular in mind? How many of the people posting here would come into that category, do you think?

Excellent post by Alec btw.


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## Dab (16 April 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Did you notice how many loose horses continued this year, far more than normal as usually a lot, once fallen pull themselves up having had enough enabling them to be caught by course staff; this didn't happen this year, they hardly caught any.
		
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Very interesting, and it would be good to see the stats on that one. What is also interesting, is that they were supposed to have narrowed some of the fences to allow 'run-off' areas? If so thats not working!!!!! Just less jumping room and more chance of being bought down!!!

Bring back the 'old-fashion' breed chasers.


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## LaurenBay (16 April 2012)

I haven't read all the replys on here, got to page 24 and gave up!! But heres my thoughts on the national. I don't like it, I didn't bet on it and never will. My family did, but thats their choice and not mine. However I do not think the GN should be banned, if that gets banned, then whats next?! I do however think there are a number of things they can change to make it safer! Such as making the jumps higher so the Horses and Jockeys are forced to slow down, keeping the ground softer and reducing the ammount of Horses in one race. If they must insist on having that many Horses in the GN they should split it into 2 races. Then say the first 10 from each race gets to go again in the final race (obv not the same month, as Horses need to recover)


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## marmalade76 (16 April 2012)

jenki13 said:



			I see, it would be interesting to see whether horses that gain the rating & then don't race for 11 months (I assume this is what's meant by a "national horse" in the papers) and rates of falls compared to those that qualify in the year before. 

Is there anywhere that shows the odds just before the race for each horse? In compliance finished 4th at 100-1 but I wondered if the other outsiders where the ones that fell at early fences? 
I think if this was the case then it would definitely be something to look into and a strong case for a smaller field.
		
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Several outsiders finished.

Hello Bud  80-1  (7th)

Tharawaat  150-1  (8th)

Swing Bill  150-1  (10th)

Neptune Equester  100-1  (13th)

Midnight Haze  100-1  (15th and last to finish)

Full list of starting prices here :-

http://www.grand-national-guide.co.uk/grand-national-runners.php


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## firm (16 April 2012)

Some of the better horses though are not such good jumpers so less suited to the National then some of the lower rated horses.  I watched Swing Bill (150-1)  for example and he was really popping the fences for fun.  So I don't think it is as simple to say only the better "on paper" horses should be in the race.


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## Dab (16 April 2012)

firm said:



			Some of the better horses though are not such good jumpers so less suited to the National then some of the lower rated horses.  I watched Swing Bill (150-1)  for example and he was really popping the fences for fun.  So I don't think it is as simple to say only the better "on paper" horses should be in the race.
		
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Agreed. The point was being discussed earlier about qualification, in that it is ratings dependent, but a horse could gain that rating 11 months prior and not run again until the National and this might be reflected in the odds. Together with a consideration that outsiders were less likey to finish, but this is not born out by the results.

Maybe they should reconsider the qualification and it be not so much ratings dependent, but based/tested on ability to jump around the National type fences, i.e qualification races. This way owners also get to see for themselves if their horse is up to the job. 

Several owners with National rated horses have gone the 'test' route (and even that can be a diffcult choice) i.e. horse has jumped around the course earlier in the season, and then decided NO this is not a National horse.

There is much that can be done to improve the situation and lets hope that as many options as possible are considered.


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## SeasonalSituation (16 April 2012)

I'm going to join this now I think as I have read a lot of the posts from both sides and some just kind of get to me, and some actually have made me think. 

I am a fan of the GN and for one hope it continues for the foreseeable future. The fatalties are a bad part of the GN, but the owners, trainers and jockeys know this race a lot better then I do, they know the risks and they still race. They try to miminsse the risks themselves, but obviously luck can get in the way to this (particularly According to Pete's fall). 

The whole debate of "it's killing animals in the name of sport" is if I am honest, is really beginning to annoy me. How many who have said that support hunting? And I am 100% sure that none of the trainers will want the horse to be shot, but of course if its neck is broken, giving it a quick way out is the only way. 

I know that the GN/RSPCA debate will get brought up each year, but I feel it should die down. The racecourse worked with the RSPCA on the course to try and improve it, they got it wrong. But the RSPCA did advise them. Personally to me, slam the fences higher and you'll see less fatalties.


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## brighteyes (16 April 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			I've followed this with considerable interest.  On the one hand we have those who would argue that "It's only a horse",  and on the other,  those who hate racing, period.  There also seems to be a middle road group,  which I suspect holds the greatest number,  and who I'd join.

Let's consider the facts,  again;

The Grand National used to have a maximum of 64 starters,  but because of the number of fatal falls,  that was cut to 40 starters.  In the view of many,  that's still too many.

New safety measures have been put in place,  but it seems to me having listened to the arguments of many,  on here,  that the situation has actually worsened.

Racing,  particularly NH cannot continue,  taking a careless approach to animal welfare,  and that's what's actually under discussion.  A poster,  someway back said that they thought that 15 finishers out of 40 was quite a good result.  Few,  I suspect,  would agree with that.

There's also some validity in the argument that for Eventing,  if 2 horses out of every 40,  who ran at Burghley or Badminton,  lost its life,  then something would be said.  There'd be uproar.  Racing and Eventing are two separate disciplines,  I accept,  but when both are run at the pinnacle of excellence,  and one provides a disproportionate number of fatalities,  then the world is entitled to ask questions,  I feel.

On the other side of the argument,  it has to be understood that owners,  trainers,  and jockeys,  accept the risks,  and do their best to mitigate the risks of death or injury to either horse or rider,  and their views should be considered.

If I owned a Gold Cup winner,  it certainly wouldn't have been put at such risk,  unless of course,  it was just a matter of money,  with little thought for the animal itself.  My heart goes out to the owners of A_t_P.  They are,  so I understand,  devastated.

I'm a stout and determined fan of NH racing,  but there are occasions when I find that we really do need to be looking at the way that some races are run.  In short,  we need to get our act together,  before _"authority"_ takes the options away from us.

Alec.
		
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100% agree.


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## marmalade76 (16 April 2012)

criso said:



			I did hear on the radio that since the safety measures were introduced over the last few years deaths have gone up not down.

So I wondered if a few factors were coming together.

Smaller fences so horses going faster.
Drier springs which mean the ground is harder and faster, horses  more likely to fall at speed and more likely to do serious damage if they do.  More horses get tired and pulled up in the mud.
Have the horses changed? Less old fashioned chaser types who can jump but are slower partly due to the smaller fences.

Not sure, but if the number of deaths have increased then whatever changes are being made are the wrong changes.
		
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Ditto this.

Anyone remember the year Red Marauder won? Very wet and only four finished. IIRC, there were no deaths or serious injuries to horses or jockeys. Perhaps the National needs to be brought forward so there's less chance of fast going.


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## The Virgin Dubble (16 April 2012)

All those who are calling for the 'cruel' Grand National and its hideous fences to be banned, are you familiar with the following three horses?
Fox Hunt
Bronze Cannon
Grand vent

No mass public outcry over the above is there?

Sorry, but it's the same old, same old. 

Every year there are calls for the National to be banned, and faffing about with it to appease the public, has created more problems than it has solved.

Raise the fences so the horses don't attack them at speed like hurdles, and reduce the runners. Got to be worth a try?

One death is one death too many, and it is unacceptable, but horses are dying all over the world, in desperately cruel circumstances, yet the National is the only one to attract so much negativity...


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## Elf On A Shelf (16 April 2012)

I've not read the whole thread because A. I can't be bothered and B. It would just annoy me.

The finishing time of the National isn't actually that much faster now than it was in Red Rum's era. For the last 20 years it has pretty much taken 10m30s-11m to complete the National. The main difference now from then is that the first circuit is going quicker. It always used to be that you hunted round and survived the first circuit. If you were still in the plate then you knew you had a good jumper and so you raced for the second circuit. These days they go like a bat out of hell into the first and gradually steady up as the race goes on. Thus producing the same sort of times as before just the opposite way round. This is also why I believe we have so many fallers now. Most go in the first circuit.


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## dominobrown (16 April 2012)

I havent comment on this thread but I have been reading it throughout,
I would say I am 'pro' racing but...
2 horses dying every year in the GN is not an acceptable number, but rather than banning it we need to find out, and a way to reduce the risk.
Firstly there will always be some risk, no matter what you do, even at the lowest levels of any horse sport. Deaths will always occur, even  to a pony out in a field.  And with a sport such as racing that risk will be increased. Although deaths are horrible, if occassionaly a horse fell strange or a freak accident occurs in the GN and the horse died it would be horrid but acceptable. To me if 2 horses died every 10 years in the race, instead of 2 every race would be a lot better. That kind of number is on accidental scale. 
But to achieve this changes need to made to the race. I dont think anyone here is qualified to comment. I think a panel of the most experienced people in racing should be included such as P Nicholls, AP Mc Coy etc.
Also there is a lot of comments on how horses are not as tough as they used to be. I would tend to agree with this. I think an indepth study of why horses break down is needed. A study including THOUSANDS of horses, all over the world, living in different conditions, different feed, conformation, bloodlines, including scan, x rays etc. We have the science to do this, just not the money or effort, but as many said, racing is a billion pound industry. A few million pounds spent on saving thousands of horses lives for many years to come is nothing. 
Finally looking at training techniques, P Nicholls schools his horses loads, about once a week, This is unusual. Intresting I dont think there were any fatalties in the Hunter chase over 2m4f which is a fairly fast race over the GN fences. To qualifly not only do these horse have to win a hunter chase, they all have (should have) hunted. Maybe this enables them quick thinking and agiligty needed to negotiate the national fences. Back in the day a lot of NH horse did hunt.
I do think if the fences were bigger it would slow them down a bit, and encourage a different style of jumping. Jockeys rode longer and jumped the fences in a much more defensive manner. There is a video of the race in in the 1930's on you tube, I think 1933 were no horses died. In fact only 4 horses died in the race during the whole decade of the 30's despite veterinary medicine obviously being basic to todays standards. With all these safety measures the race isn't getting safer. Why?
Even in the 1800's two of the deaths wer caused by a horse running back to the stables, one running through a barrier, both of which couldnt happen today. But although there were a lot fatalities, considering veterinary medicine the race is getting more dangerous, not less.


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## dominobrown (16 April 2012)

Race started in 1839, 18 deaths of horses between then and 1901. 2 of those deaths occurd when a horse ran through barrier, which were metal and wood then, plastic now, so that is a freak accident. Another happened when a horse  an unseated horse fell on a road galloping back to the stables. That wouldn't happen today, so 16 deaths during the 1800's, 60 years of racing. Its a lot but bearing in mind the  veterinary science and technology available then, as well there being NO whip rules etc.
11 horse's died since 2002. Somethings up here, bearing in mind we have less runners, smaller fences, etc etc,


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## marmalade76 (16 April 2012)

EKW said:



			I've not read the whole thread because A. I can't be bothered and B. It would just annoy me.

The finishing time of the National isn't actually that much faster now than it was in Red Rum's era. For the last 20 years it has pretty much taken 10m30s-11m to complete the National. The main difference now from then is that the first circuit is going quicker. It always used to be that you hunted round and survived the first circuit. If you were still in the plate then you knew you had a good jumper and so you raced for the second circuit. These days they go like a bat out of hell into the first and gradually steady up as the race goes on. Thus producing the same sort of times as before just the opposite way round. This is also why I believe we have so many fallers now. Most go in the first circuit.
		
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I agree.


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## Honeylight (16 April 2012)

I have seen this happening (increase in fatalities) & I blame the RSPCA a lot, I don't give to them any more. It is clear something is badly wrong & a lot of it is to do with the alterations, the type of horse & the date of the race.

1. Bring it forward run it a week after Cheltenham or even the week or 2 weeks before. This will also prevent a dual winner.
2. Raise the fences again, I know this will not be popular with the RSPCA.
3. Put some bends in the course to slow the runners down
4. Provide more trials over the course. Why is it so little used any way, just 5 races a year?
5. Make sure the going is good to soft at least.
6. Have a panel of breeders, trainers, owners & jockeys to discuss issues.

A problem is the guy from the BHB seems to think the statistics are good; I must say I & most people on here don't agree.
A horrid thought & hopefully completely wrong is the RSPCA want more deaths so they can finish the race for good?


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## Maesfen (16 April 2012)

Honeylight said:



			A horrid thought & hopefully completely wrong is the RSPCA want more deaths so they can finish the race for good?
		
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That's exactly what I said earlier; it wouldn't surprise me in the least.


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## lachlanandmarcus (16 April 2012)

Dubs said:



			All those who are calling for the 'cruel' Grand National and its hideous fences to be banned, are you familiar with the following three horses?
Fox Hunt
Bronze Cannon
Grand vent

No mass public outcry over the above is there?

Sorry, but it's the same old, same old. 

Every year there are calls for the National to be banned, and faffing about with it to appease the public, has created more problems than it has solved.

Raise the fences so the horses don't attack them at speed like hurdles, and reduce the runners. Got to be worth a try?

One death is one death too many, and it is unacceptable, but horses are dying all over the world, in desperately cruel circumstances, yet the National is the only one to attract so much negativity...
		
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Those are the three horses who died in the one (FLAT turf) race in Dubai last week arent they? Fox Hunt in the first running and then they abandoned due to him being in the 'way' and then 2 more died in the re-run they decided to tack onto the end of the programme. 

I watched the initial race and thought the track looked waaay too fast and dangerous, couldnt believe it when I heard they re-ran it and felt sick (having seen what happened to FoxHunt when I heard about the other two).

To lose three horses in one flat (!) race, thats going some in terms of bad decision making by the authorities, when two were avoidable at least. 

Unlike the National (tho I think they need to beef up fences and slow the thing down and run it earlier in the year), the Foxhunt race was for me an example of unacceptable risk taking in the pursuit of money


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## Miss L Toe (16 April 2012)

Dab said:



			Very interesting, and it would be good to see the stats on that one. What is also interesting, is that they were supposed to have narrowed some of the fences to allow 'run-off' areas? If so thats not working!!!!! Just less jumping room and more chance of being bought down!!!

Bring back the 'old-fashion' breed chasers.
		
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The run off areas are there for safety, to help prevent a Foinhaven catastrophe.
There is no going back when it comes to breeding,  there may be old fasioned chaser types around, but they won't win modern races.


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## Wagtail (16 April 2012)

Maesfen said:



			That's exactly what I said earlier; it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
		
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Conspiracy theories eh?


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## Miss L Toe (16 April 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equine_fatalities_in_the_Grand_National
This indicates that more recent races have the worst fatalities.


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## Miss L Toe (16 April 2012)

Modern national horses are classier,  fitter than in previous years, and are better schooled over fences, so maybe we need to run moderate horses from moderate trainers, would this work?


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## mbf938 (16 April 2012)

Having read through lots of comments and views on the Grand National, the arguments from one end to the other appear to be:

Ban all horse sports, ban racing, ban the Grand National, remove the most dangerous fences, lower the fences, level out the drop fences, reduce the number of runners, leave the race as it is (to wait and see whether these two deaths were freak accidents) or increase the fence height to slow the horses down. 

I personally love horse sports and racing, including the GN, so would not be too keen on either of the first three options. I think that reducing the number of starters would help as it would give horses more room to land and they wouldn't bunch up so much. Further modifying the fences may make things worse as the race was run faster according to some commentators this year because of previous modifications. The biggest fence on the course (the Chair) did not claim any horses as they jumped it slower. 

However, even with fewer runners, there will still be horse fatalities. The other horse that died at Aintree 2012 broke its leg whilst racing on the flat, 5 horses died at Cheltenham this year, and at least 3 died in a flat race abroad this month. Horses also sustain life threatening injuries whilst show jumping, eventing, and numerous other horse sports so the key is to minimise the risk whilst appreciating that there will be accidents. I still remember the outcry over the two horses that died during the cross country phase at Badmintion a few years ago - happily, that hasn't happened since.


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## Dab (16 April 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Modern national horses are classier,  fitter than in previous years, and are better schooled over fences, so maybe we need to run moderate horses from moderate trainers, would this work?
		
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How do you classify 'classier'?, faster, more stamina, better jumpers? Are they breed to jump or breed for speed? What is the essence for a good National horses?

Interested to know why you would question if moderate horses from moderate trainers would work?


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## alsxx (16 April 2012)

Not read the whole thread so sorry if I am repeating anything here. I too have looked through the stats on fatalities in the national and can't help but notice how since the mid nineties it seems to have got worse. Could this be because the course has been 'improved' in response to concerns over safety - better ground conditions, lowering of the fences and added take off boards/ground lines? Surely this all leads to horses coming into the fences faster, rather than backing off and taking a more cautious jump? I know some say the field should be reduced, but the field has been reduced compared to years gone by, where statistically there appears to be less fatalities. Why is that, given the field racing was generally larger and the fences 'harder'? I also wonder if modern training techniques play a part; now I know nothing about training a racehorse, but surely most horses train on excellent surfaces these days, over typical steeplechase fences - possibly leading to less careful technique? I'm sure I read somewhere that gone are the days a steeplechaser would be taken hunting, effectively teaching it to be an effective and useful jumper?

I don't like hearing a horse has been destroyed, but I do like racing and would hate for the national to go.


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## Elf On A Shelf (16 April 2012)

An interesting article that explains just why horses are put down on the track due to broken bones.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/sep/23/claims-five-broken-leg-horse?CMP=twt_gu


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## Honeylight (16 April 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equine_fatalities_in_the_Grand_National
This indicates that more recent races have the worst fatalities.
		
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There are some deaths missing on that list, a horse died in 1969 & in 1970 so there maybe more missing than that. Certainly though there have been more since the fences were lowered in the early 1960s & again in 1990.


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## Dab (16 April 2012)

EKW said:



			An interesting article that explains just why horses are put down on the track due to broken bones.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/sep/23/claims-five-broken-leg-horse?CMP=twt_gu

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Thanks for sharing. Good article.


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## Miss L Toe (17 April 2012)

Dab said:



			How do you classify 'classier'?, faster, more stamina, better jumpers? Are they breed to jump or breed for speed? What is the essence for a good National horses?

Interested to know why you would question if moderate horses from moderate trainers would work?
		
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Class horses: good horses often bred by top stallions and out of good mares, with a record of racing in top races.
.......... All racehorses will be allocated a handicap, in fact one for flat racing [if they run on the flat]  and one for hurdles and one for fences.
The average horses will be 100 or more, and the top horses will be up to 165. In handicap races a top horse will have to carry more weight than a moderate horse, but in Group races all horses will [usually] carry the same weight. In theory a horse of handicap 130 will carry 30lbs more than a horse of 100.
I was rather joking about running moderate horses in a race with a pot of £250K, but in the past, moderate horses which were good jumpers could do well in the National, and in those days the race was more about kudos than cash.
The essence of a National Horse [not guaranteed to win!] able to travel well [gallop  for four miles] and still have a bit left at the end, capable of jumping well, and brave enough to jump these fences. Some horse are good over standard birch fences as used in the UK, but only win when the course suits them [CD winners]


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## Dab (17 April 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Class horses: good horses often bred by top stallions and out of good mares, with a record of racing in top races.
.......... All racehorses will be allocated a handicap, in fact one for flat racing [if they run on the flat]  and one for hurdles and one for fences.
The average horses will be 100 or more, and the top horses will be up to 165. In handicap races a top horse will have to carry more weight than a moderate horse, but in Group races all horses will [usually] carry the same weight. In theory a horse of handicap 130 will carry 30lbs more than a horse of 100.
I was rather joking about running moderate horses in a race with a pot of £250K, but in the past, moderate horses which were good jumpers could do well in the National, and in those days the race was more about kudos than cash.
The essence of a National Horse [not guaranteed to win!] able to travel well [gallop  for four miles] and still have a bit left at the end, capable of jumping well, and brave enough to jump these fences. Some horse are good over standard birch fences as used in the UK, but only win when the course suits them [CD winners]
		
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Brilliant, thanks 

But when it comes to Class, is it type specific? i.e. Can you classify a horse entered into the National as 'class' , if it only or many has 'class' flat parentage? *This is probably a very silly question, just interested*


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## criso (17 April 2012)

But what strikes me is whether you talk about class or flat or NH horses, there is definitely a 'type' that does well round Grand National course.  

A few people mentioned Red Rum who was bred for the flat but wasn't very good at it, in fact was only really any good at Aintree.  

Which makes me wonder, if the course is out of step with the type of horses we breed now, the way we train (e.g. taken hunting to learn to look after themselves) and the type of race that is run, then maybe sadly it is no longer valid.

Trainers and owners are not going to breed and train horses just for this race.


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## Maesfen (17 April 2012)

criso said:



			Which makes me wonder, if the course is out of step with the type of horses we breed now, the way we train (e.g. taken hunting to learn to look after themselves) and the type of race that is run, then maybe sadly it is no longer valid.

Trainers and owners are not going to breed and train horses just for this race.
		
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The course has remained the same appearance and almost construction wise since it first started; it was always different which made it the unique challenge it is.
As has been stated time and time again, the horses that take part now are in the main, an entirely different kettle of fish to those that used to race in it.  Those were always NH bred with bone and substance, many of them wouldn't have been out of place hunting and in some cases had enough bone to be a police horse type, I kid you not.  Now, they are predominantly flat bred with the corresponding lack of bone and could get away with doing a riding horse class.  If you look at the H&H article which gives the breeding, you'll see what I mean; years ago you'd never get the likes of Sadlers Wells and his ilk siring a National horse, it would have been a laughable notion as it wouldn't have been suitable for the course as it stood but now, with all the so called improvements plus the later in the year date so virtually guaranteeing good rather than heavy ground the lighter built animals have made an appearance which has altered a lot of things.

But and this is a big but, there are still many breeders, owners and trainers all striving to breed a future National type horse/winner but the more of a park type competition it gets the further away from its roots it gets which is a crying shame.  There are still some decent NH stallions around and hopefully there always will be for the people that still have this dream.


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## turkana (17 April 2012)

Maesfen said:



			The course has remained the same appearance and almost construction wise since it first started; it was always different which made it the unique challenge it is.
As has been stated time and time again, the horses that take part now are in the main, an entirely different kettle of fish to those that used to race in it.  Those were always NH bred with bone and substance, many of them wouldn't have been out of place hunting and in some cases had enough bone to be a police horse type, I kid you not.  Now, they are predominantly flat bred with the corresponding lack of bone and could get away with doing a riding horse class.  If you look at the H&H article which gives the breeding, you'll see what I mean; years ago you'd never get the likes of Sadlers Wells and his ilk siring a National horse, it would have been a laughable notion as it wouldn't have been suitable for the course as it stood but now, with all the so called improvements plus the later in the year date so virtually guaranteeing good rather than heavy ground the lighter built animals have made an appearance which has altered a lot of things.

But and this is a big but, there are still many breeders, owners and trainers all striving to breed a future National type horse/winner but the more of a park type competition it gets the further away from its roots it gets which is a crying shame.  There are still some decent NH stallions around and hopefully there always will be for the people that still have this dream.
		
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Thanks you that Maesfen, I'm not a racing expert at all but I have noticed that you don't see many of the old fashioned chasers anymore, I do wonder if these lighter types simply aren't the right sort to be tackling the GN, maybe the race has had it's day, which I think is a shame.
I don't have an issue with a tough, challenging race but I do have a problem when it becomes unfair.
Many years ago somebody I know who was a big showing man bought an ex-racer & had much success in middle weight hunter classes - I can't imagine that happening now.
I had no idea that many NH horses now have flat racing blood in them, which explains a lot.


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## criso (17 April 2012)

turkana said:



			Many years ago somebody I know who was a big showing man bought an ex-racer & had much success in middle weight hunter classes - I can't imagine that happening now.
		
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Mine get's mistaken for a warmblood all the time, or a cross alot of people don't believe he's a tb because they're not used to seeing a tb with a  bit of bone.


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## dominobrown (17 April 2012)

My friend's pointer, who was bred to race on the flat and did quite well is huge! He is about 16.3hh with a good bit of bone. However he is still sound and on the go in his early teens. My other friend's horse who raced in the National was a french horse, however was not full TB, but quarter selle francis. He jumped round the National, raced for a few more years and retired sound.


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## alliersv1 (17 April 2012)

My YO has a TB by Criminal Law, so eventing stock, rather than racing stock, but he is like a brick outhouse.
Several people have taken some convincing that he is full TB. If I wanted to send a horse round the GN, or any chase for that matter, he is the type I would want. Lots of bone and a leg at each corner.
We've had a few ex flat horses on the yard and they are so dainty it's scary.


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## Doncella (17 April 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			Great post, but, and correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the grestest National horse ever flat bred??

I do agree, Suny Bay in particular (although he was not a GN winner), sticks in my mind as looking like a proper hunter.
		
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Yes Red Rum was flat bred but he was a freak who could jump the big fences literally from fence to fence and not break his stride.  He was also supremely well balanced and quick thinking as well as being produced for the GN.
Furthermore, he was born in the 1960s so was nearer to some really good, hard, tough stallions.


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## Mike007 (17 April 2012)

the fundamental problem is that the fences are not big enough to slow the pack down. People talk abot too many runners COBLERS look at how wide the fences are. The fact is that because the fences are lower and softer ,they all take a racing line and crowd up.Google the 1925 grand national and watch and learn. Yes there were some who should have pulled up earlier and some ugly falls as a result.But in general the only ones who took a hammering were the jockeys


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## dominobrown (17 April 2012)

THats what I was saying mike. If you look on you tube there is a video of the race in 1937. No horses were killed that year but the fences are huge! However they are going really slowly compared to today's standard, so you dont get the quite the same crunching falls, more bad pecks on landing. The jockeys ride very long and' hunt' their way round.


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## Elf On A Shelf (18 April 2012)

I've been watching some old Nationals on YouTube and to be honest, the jockeys are far more sensible. They spread out, give themselves room to jump, gallop, fall and get out of the way. Todays jockeys all want to take the Brave Mans Route and they all bunch up too close together. The race is 4m4f so there is plenty of time to bring your horse into contention.

Also in some of the older ones there are clearly horses in the race that were bloomin useless and shouldn't have been therebut they hunted round at the back probably just to say they did it.


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## SpruceRI (18 April 2012)

A friend and I were discussing the other day what could be done to stop so many horse falls, and the main thing that came to mind was that, could the jockeys not ride in a 'proper' saddle and with longer stirrups?

I know that's not racing - but on watching some of the horse falls in slow motion, I think that riders tipping off, other horse swerving to avoid them brought others down.

If we could stop a) riders falling off so easily and b) them then being able to help the horse a little if it pecked on landing, then maybe there wouldn't be so many falls?

Can they learn anything from Team Chasers?


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## Zerotolerance (18 April 2012)

Haven't read the entire thread and have given it a few days before posting to gather my thoughts. 
I've always been a fan of the GN, since going to Aintree as a pony mad 9 year old in 1967 and falling in love with a handsome bay horse who dead heated in a flat race - that horse was Red Rum. By some strange coincidence I used to go to school in Southport in a taxi driven by one Ginger McCain. 
I've watched the race every year since then, cheered the wonderful Red Rum on to all his victories and breathed a sigh of relief when he was withdrawn on the eve of the 1978 race and retired. I had other favourites - The Pilgarlic, who always plugged on round safely, getting into minor placings, Greasepaint, Hedgehunter etc. 
As other people have said, the NH horses back then were a totally different build from today. 
I don't think modifying the GN course will make any difference - horses are breaking down, suffering fractures and having fatal falls at racecourses all over the country, and not just when jumping.
This problem isn't just restricted to racing, either, although the speed of racing exacerbates the problem.
Showjumping, now with it's ultra light poles and shallow cups, requires lighter,  ultra careful horses. Top horses don't seem to be around as long, often retiring relatively early with problems such as suspensory ligaments. I remember John Whitaker winning the Hickstead Derby on the 21 year old Gammon. I'm not so into Eventing, but can also remember Lucinda Green winning Badminton, Burghley and the Europeans on George, who was really a hunter! I doubt either of these feats would be repeated nowadays.
A few years back there was a real welfare issue with the breed standards in 
dogs - They were being bred for a certain look, to the detriment of their welfare. It seems to me we could be heading the same way with top competition horses. Ordinary all round horses (I guess the equivalent of mixed breed dogs!) are living & staying in work longer now, whereas competition horses seem to have gone the other way. I can't remember the last time I saw a horse advertised with "10 ins of bone" -  but do see lots of ads with pictures of foals loose jumping.
Back to the GN - I certainly wouldn't want the fences reducing further. They never should have pandered to the RSPCA in the first place.   I'm with the 
trainer of According to Pete, who says make the fences bigger again. I'd also reduce the prize money, so it's more about the kudos of winning and might stop people entering the wrong "type" of horse just for the money. I'd like to get back to the mix of horses it used to have, with some lower rated, slower ones hoping to plug on round for a minor place, so they're more spread out and not so evenly matched. Also perhaps water more, again to slow it down a little. It shouldn't be about beating the course record, tactics should play a part. This years oh so close finish was said to be one of the best, but for me, watching Red catching the fabulous Crisp (a great big proper chaser) in 1973 was better and 1977 when he did the hat trick winning by 25 lengths, the best of all, as you knew it would never be repeated.


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## Alec Swan (18 April 2012)

So,  we've criticised the course design,  and it's quite beyond me how anyone in their right minds would ever give any credence to the opinions of the RSPCA,  on equine matters,  we've discussed the type of horse which now seems fashionable,  but I wonder if anyone feels that the jockeys were responsible,  in any way.  

I spoke yesterday with a race course official,  a highly knowledgable and experienced man,  who lays the responsibility for the frantic and often chaotic starts squarely at the door of the riders,  not the starter,  as so often seems to happen.

The starts in Formula 1 seem to be a little more restrained (and successful),  these days,  so is it time for the riders in the GN to accept that they may be of some influence?

Alec.


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## scarymare (18 April 2012)

Sorry I haven't read all the posts.  IMO the starter was a muppet and the jockeys rode far too fast.  The fences, in a very worthy effort to make them safer allow this as much smaller.  I'm not sure how to fix it, cutting to 30 may help but I doubt it.  One thing is for sure though, if this horse death carries on then Joe Public will put a stop to it.  Personally I accept the fact that with any risk sport there will be horse injuries (which often lead to PTS even at my level).


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## Wagtail (18 April 2012)

Hopefully this thread will make it to the most talked about in H&H this week. There are some really considered and knowledgable posts on this thread from both sides, and for once, no nastiness. Just a constructive and hopefully fruitful discussion.


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## PercyMum (18 April 2012)

I don't know much about racing at all and I have found this thread very infomative so thank you all.  Just such a very sad shame that it had to come about from such tragedy.

I was particularly interested about the breeding comments.  In my idiocy I thought a TB was a TB and had always wondered how some of these little things would be able to get round the GN.  I now am un-confused!  Coincidentally, I have just taken on the daintiest wee TB I ever saw! She is flatbred and a very very fine 16.1hh.  Apparently her old owners were thinking about making her NH because although she isnt massively quick, she has a fantastic jump and is a 'stayer'.  Luckily her trainer is said no! When I read those comments I rushed up the yard and gave her a big hug and am very relieved she will just have a rather more sedate life as a Dressage/SJ-er!!!


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## Elf On A Shelf (18 April 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			So,  we've criticised the course design,  and it's quite beyond me how anyone in their right minds would ever give any credence to the opinions of the RSPCA,  on equine matters,  we've discussed the type of horse which now seems fashionable,  but I wonder if anyone feels that the jockeys were responsible,  in any way.  

I spoke yesterday with a race course official,  a highly knowledgable and experienced man,  who lays the responsibility for the frantic and often chaotic starts squarely at the door of the riders,  not the starter,  as so often seems to happen.

The starts in Formula 1 seem to be a little more restrained (and successful),  these days,  so is it time for the riders in the GN to accept that they may be of some influence?

Alec.
		
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I agree Alec. The jockeys are partly to blame for eveything gong skewiff. There is no need to be faffing around so much at the start, there is no need to go haring into the first, no need to be in such a tigtly packed group et al.

BUT

The jockeys are under a lot of pressure. The start of the National is always controversial and all they want to do is get away quickly and smartly. There is a vast amount of pressure getting the start right which is totally ridiculous considering the race is 4.5miles. To ease this I would suggest a  flag start where so long as all the horses are facing in the right direction and are no more than 7-8lenghts from front to back then I would let them go. But then if your horse doesn't get off to the best start the jockeys will get a rollicking from the owner and/or trainer. It's a no win situation for them.

The frantic pace to the first is usually due to nerves and to everyone wanting to get into a good position relatively near to where their trainers instructed them to be. Again if that doesn't happen a rollicking will ensue. 

As for the tightly packed groups - the way the handicap works is so that in theory every horse should cross the line at the same time. They reckon for every pound of weight it is worth a length on the racecourse. The horses are too evenly matched but with only having the higher rated, proven horses you are getting the ones most likley to get round. No one these days seems to believe that you can win the National from either the outside or from 5-10lengths off the pace where you can steer your mount safely around downed horses and jockeys. Also again they have to be where the owner and trainer want them to be to avoid a rollicking.

There is far too much pressure on these jockeys to be where the owner and trainer want them to be and that results in a tin of sardines. The trouble is is that if an owner or trainer disagrees with the ride a jokey gave the horse then they can go into the stewards room, say the jockey failed to carry out their instructions and then potentially get them banned from riding for a few days.

Back in days gone by jockeys, owners and trainers were happy for their horses to hunt round at the back of the field, stay up and pick off any that couldn't keep the pace to pick up some placed prize money. These days it's all too gloried about winning. It doesn't happen now due to too much pressure from every camp and it's a shame as it is ruining the race.

I do wonder what would happen if you took away all of the prize money and the only thing to play for is the glory of winning the National. Would owners, trainers and jockey's be much more relaxed and the race strung out, realise when they are beaten and things don't work out and thus just canter home merrily. There is just too much pressure on the whole thing these days. TV crews in yards filming the favourites - that's a total pain in the backside in itself! Jockeys being interviewed, owners being interviewed, 70,000 people at the track itself to watch the race and then the goodness knows how many million watching on tv. The public, especially with a few drinks in them at the races, don't take kindly to their bet being beaten or failing to complete and the jockeys get some amount of booing as they come in. That's not right. The whole thing is now like a boiling kettle that has nowhere to let the steam out until the tape goes up and the race commences.

As to the comment about riding in normal saddles and longer stirrups - it's actually much, much easier to jump at speed in race saddles as your legs aren't forced into position. They allow you complete freedom of movement and so are better able to deal with short strides, long strides, wonky jumps etc as you don't have a cantle smacking you on the back side at every fence or indeed in every stride of the race. Most of the jocks, if not all of them, do indeed drop their stirrups a couple of holes for the National - ride long live long.


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## Maesfen (18 April 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Hopefully this thread will make it to the most talked about in H&H this week. There are some really considered and knowledgable posts on this thread from both sides, and for once, no nastiness. Just a constructive and hopefully fruitful discussion.
		
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I totally agree with this.  While I don't expect much credence being given carte blanche by those in charge to everything that's been said on here, perhaps it's enough to give them some food for thought for how some other horse people are thinking.

The last few posts have been exceptionally good especially Zerotolerance, Mike and EKW.


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## Mithras (18 April 2012)

Zerotolerance said:



			As other people have said, the NH horses back then were a totally different build from today. 
I don't think modifying the GN course will make any difference - horses are breaking down, suffering fractures and having fatal falls at racecourses all over the country, and not just when jumping.
This problem isn't just restricted to racing, either, although the speed of racing exacerbates the problem.
A few years back there was a real welfare issue with the breed standards in 
dogs - They were being bred for a certain look, to the detriment of their welfare. It seems to me we could be heading the same way with top competition horses. Ordinary all round horses (I guess the equivalent of mixed breed dogs!) are living & staying in work longer now, whereas competition horses seem to have gone the other way. I can't remember the last time I saw a horse advertised with "10 ins of bone" -  but do see lots of ads with pictures of foals loose jumping.
		
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I remember I used to ride out a horse called Man on the Run when I worked in racing during the uni holidays which was ante-post favourite for the Grand National.  He must have been about 17.2, built more like an Irish Draft and actually had a little bit of feather on his fetlocks.  Massive horse but very well balanced.  I didn't measure his bone but I'm sure he would have made an excellent middleweight hunter.

The problem in racing is that these types take a long time to mature and don't bring in the money for breeders and pinhookers that sprint and miler bred flat types do.  Hence everything seems to be getting crossed with a sprint or miler bred sire from Danzig/Fairy King/Storm Cat lines to introduce some speed and some black type to up the price at the sales.

Not unnaturally, some of these filter through to NH racing.  If you think of the tragic Synchronised's breeding, he is inbred to Hail To Reason and while there is some flat stamina in there (maternal great grandsire Derby winner Roberto), its definatley not a typical NH pedigree providing a lot of bone.  But Syncronished won the Welsh and Scottish Grand Nationals, so did have stamina.  If you see many of the 4 mile plus chases on tv now, there only seems to be a couple of horses who actually finished without being out on their legs.  Even in flat racing, the Cup races are no longer fashionable and considered almost a detriment to a horse's breeding career.

Its the way racing is going.  Perhaps we need to see some incentives from the breeding and racing industry to promote NH type store horses and stayers.  I honestly find watching a good Cup race more interesting than a 5 furlong sprint!


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## Alec Swan (18 April 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Hopefully this thread will make it to the most talked about in H&H this week. There are some really considered and knowledgable posts on this thread from both sides, and for once, no nastiness. Just a constructive and hopefully fruitful discussion.
		
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Maesfen said:



			I totally agree with this.  While I don't expect much credence being given carte blanche by those in charge to everything that's been said on here, perhaps it's enough to give them some food for thought for how some other horse people are thinking.

The last few posts have been exceptionally good especially Zerotolerance, Mike and EKW.
		
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I agree with both of you,  I,  as others,  have asked questions and been given well argued responses,  for which I'm grateful.  If you don't ask,  you don't learn.

I'll watch with interest The Morning Line,  on Saturday.  Francombe tends to speak his mind,  and seems to fear no one.  I wonder if they'll let him loose?   I for one would welcome his contribution.  Is he on Twitter?  Could he be steered towards this debate?  Probably not! 

Alec.


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## Wagtail (18 April 2012)

This may be a stupid suggestion, but with all this talk about the way NH horses used to be built, more bone etc. Could there be a minimum amount of bone permitted for horses to qualify for races such as the National? I actually have a 16.1hh flatbred ex racer that has 9 inches of bone, (more than two of the warmbloods on the yard). He is a really big solid type. Unfortunately totally knackered though!


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## Mithras (18 April 2012)

Wagtail said:



			This may be a stupid suggestion, but with all this talk about the way NH horses used to be built, more bone etc. Could there be a minimum amount of bone permitted for horses to qualify for races such as the National? I actually have a 16.1hh flatbred ex racer that has 9 inches of bone, (more than two of the warmbloods on the yard). He is a really big solid type. Unfortunately totally knackered though!
		
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I rather like this idea.  In fact, I'd extend it to all steeplechases (not hurdles).  Of course bone measurement isn't a pre-cursor for stamina or toughness on its own, but such a requirement would along the way, encourage breeding of the right type of horse.  I think its an excellent idea (though sadly probably too visionary to be adopted).


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## Alec Swan (18 April 2012)

Unfortunately,  "bone" is no guarantee of just how tough a horse is,  though it may be an indication.  The other point is,  just how would you quantify the amount of bone available between 2 horses,  one of 15.2 and one a full hand and a half taller?  

A nice idea,  but I can't see it working,  to be honest.  It'd be good if it did,  though! 

Alec.


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## Wagtail (18 April 2012)

Mithras said:



			I rather like this idea.  In fact, I'd extend it to all steeplechases (not hurdles).  Of course bone measurement isn't a pre-cursor for stamina or toughness on its own, but such a requirement would along the way, encourage breeding of the right type of horse.  I think its an excellent idea (though sadly probably too visionary to be adopted).
		
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I would be very interested to find out if there is any sort of correlation between those horses that sustain fractures racing and the amount of bone they have or how they are bred. It would be a useful study, I think.


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## Wagtail (18 April 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Unfortunately,  "bone" is no guarantee of just how tough a horse is,  though it may be an indication.  The other point is,  just how would you quantify the amount of bone available between 2 horses,  one of 15.2 and one a full hand and a half taller?  

A nice idea,  but I can't see it working,  to be honest.  It'd be good if it did,  though! 

Alec.
		
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True. You would have to devise a formula of some sort relating to how much bone as a percentage of the horse's racing weight. Probably far too complicated.


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## Littlelegs (18 April 2012)

I've had little to do with racing, not because I don't like it but just cos my interests are elsewhere. However even I've noticed the breeding differences with ex race horses. In my teens mid 90's I used to hack an ex national horse who was 17.2 & did well in hunter classes, despite being pure tb. Even without being remotely knowledgeable about tbs, in my teens there was always a huge distinction between a nh horse & a flat one.


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## Miss L Toe (18 April 2012)

Maesfen said:



			The course has remained the same appearance and almost construction wise since it first started; it was always different which made it the unique challenge it is.
		
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The fences years ago were much scarier, fences were trappier. Just because they are made of fir branches rather than made of birch [as in conventional fences] does not make them as difficult as they were years ago,  or more difficult, horses can be schooled over birch fences or fir fences at home, if they don't school well over national type fences at home they are usually not run in the National.
With respect to birch fences, some courses are known to have  "stiff" fences, and some are easier, so allow horses to make more mistakes without falling. Therefore trainers with  "dodgy " jumpers will select easier courses for their horses.
The trappiest GN fences have been made less trappy, reducing "drops" on the landing side, and making  "up slopes" on the landing side less severe, dry ditches are not deep [old pictures show jockeys standing up in them, water is a shallow ditch, intended not to trap any horse. The fences are steadily being made easier for the horse to take off in the right place by front boards, and also most are lower, year on year. 
This has not helped to reduce casualties, more horses are running at top fitness, they are better horses [higher handicaps], and will therefore  be travelling faster, because they are capable of galloping for four miles at a higher speed than twenty years ago when interval training was the exception rather than the rule, and training was more of an art than the science it is today. 
Red Rum won his races in the 1970's, he had a daily outing on Southport Sands, and was trained from stables behind a garage, well this proved to be a winning formula, but Ginger's son has his own training licence, and his horses are now trained on conventional gallops, things have moved on.......................


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## Miss L Toe (18 April 2012)

Wagtail said:



			True. You would have to devise a formula of some sort relating to how much bone as a percentage of the horse's racing weight. Probably far too complicated.
		
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There has been a lot of work done on bone modelling on racehorses, where it is evident that the exercise/training regime has a profound effect on bone density [one strength measurement] also feeding , early life style,  dams conformation etc etc, really one has to judge a horse as it stands, there are a few good horses with poor conformation, but any bloodstock agent would soon be out of business if he consistently bought horses with poor conformation.
Lady Rebecca was a super  little mare on performance, but to be honest her sales price of £800 guineas reflected her looks, she was small, a box walker, and did not have a lot of bone, the bloodstock agent took a punt, and it paid off, but how many owners asked him to go out and buy a box walking mare for 800gns, not many, thank goodness!


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## Miss L Toe (18 April 2012)

SpruceRI said:



			A friend and I were discussing the other day what could be done to stop so many horse falls, and the main thing that came to mind was that, could the jockeys not ride in a 'proper' saddle and with longer stirrups?

I know that's not racing - but on watching some of the horse falls in slow motion, I think that riders tipping off, other horse swerving to avoid them brought others down.

If we could stop a) riders falling off so easily and b) them then being able to help the horse a little if it pecked on landing, then maybe there wouldn't be so many falls?

Can they learn anything from Team Chasers?
		
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LOL, team chasers are amateurs, they are not riding at the speed of professional jockeys, who ride fit horses every day of the week, not those selected as "good amateur rides"
Believe me these lads are really fit, a few ride with longer stirrups than others, but the modern trend is to use balance to stay on board, and to be fit enough to assist the horse when he starts to flag. 
There are only a few riders able to ride at the top level, they have to be capable [ie exceptional] and intelligent [that may surprise you], capable of reading a race and riding accordingly, able to communicate with the connections, and take the flak when things go wrong.
I used to lead up quite a few horses, thank goodness they all came home, but at no time was I in doubt as to the ability of the rider. The jockey has to look after the horse, otherwise he will be taking the ambulance home, then signing on at the jobcentre.
A few horses require the assistance of a jockey when he pecks on landing, but usually it is imperative that the jockey stays in balance while the horse sorts his legs out.


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## Cumulonimbus (18 April 2012)

Going back a year, was there ever any explanation for Dooney's Gate's fall? He seemed to just plough into the fence? He finished 4th in the Topham Chase the year before so inability to jump Becher's Brook* couldnt have been the problem and from what i remember he had a good sight of the fence.

When i saw that fall i thought that we were all lucky that none of the others involved in the ensuing pile-up ended up dying as well. Did hope back then that the number of horses running and consequent potential for a pile-up might have attracted the attention of the authorities but sadly not. ATP must have been brought down in pretty much the same spot (and that was with much fewer horses left).

*well it was in this case but you know what i mean


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## Honeylight (19 April 2012)

Mithras said:



			I remember I used to ride out a horse called Man on the Run when I worked in racing during the uni holidays which was ante-post favourite for the Grand National.  He must have been about 17.2, built more like an Irish Draft and actually had a little bit of feather on his fetlocks.  Massive horse but very well balanced.  I didn't measure his bone but I'm sure he would have made an excellent middleweight hunter.

The problem in racing is that these types take a long time to mature and don't bring in the money for breeders and pinhookers that sprint and miler bred flat types do.  Hence everything seems to be getting crossed with a sprint or miler bred sire from Danzig/Fairy King/Storm Cat lines to introduce some speed and some black type to up the price at the sales.

Not unnaturally, some of these filter through to NH racing.  If you think of the tragic Synchronised's breeding, he is inbred to Hail To Reason and while there is some flat stamina in there (maternal great grandsire Derby winner Roberto), its definatley not a typical NH pedigree providing a lot of bone.  But Syncronished won the Welsh and Scottish Grand Nationals, so did have stamina.  If you see many of the 4 mile plus chases on tv now, there only seems to be a couple of horses who actually finished without being out on their legs.  Even in flat racing, the Cup races are no longer fashionable and considered almost a detriment to a horse's breeding career.

Its the way racing is going.  Perhaps we need to see some incentives from the breeding and racing industry to promote NH type store horses and stayers.  I honestly find watching a good Cup race more interesting than a 5 furlong sprint!
		
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I really agree with you.
Back in the late 1940s people were writing about the danger commercialism was having on racehorse breeding, & back then there were other bloodlines to breed out to; now myriads of Northern Dancer, Native Dancer & Mr Prospector & little else. Native Dancer wasn't completely sound & Northern Dancer throws a lot of white legged, washy bays.
Perhaps a financial incentive for using (what minuscule) stallions from other lines might be a solution. What about an incentive to breed some proper sound jumpers? With a stallion soundness & bone scheme like the old HIS scheme, which now has more Germanic warmbloods than the proper solid thoroughbred stallions it used to promote of old.


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## Honeylight (19 April 2012)

Posted some links to some HIS stallions from 1960s/70s
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=kadir+Cup&x=29&y=12
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=quality+Fair&x=22&y=10
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=hoarwithy&x=19&y=8
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=flying+curtis&x=21&y=11

& some Grand National Winners
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?sh...a.com/d?showpic=10579056&nm=2&time=1313942350
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10170357&time=1312706998
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10556729&nm=3&time=1312708399

A lot more substance all round!


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## Natch (19 April 2012)

Wagtail said:



			This may be a stupid suggestion, but with all this talk about the way NH horses used to be built, more bone etc. Could there be a minimum amount of bone permitted for horses to qualify for races such as the National?
		
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My thoughts wander this way too. It wouldn't prevent falls, but it might indicate less broken legs.



Wagtail said:



			I would be very interested to find out if there is any sort of correlation between those horses that sustain fractures racing and the amount of bone they have or how they are bred. It would be a useful study, I think.
		
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Yes, and to include nutrition and training too. 

My radical idea that won't get adopted is to turn it into "lanes," like human races but with rails so that the horses cannot cross lanes, and loose horses are kept out of the way. Would have to somehow make sure they all travelled the same distance (alter the course to be a figure of 8..?) and there would either need to be only say 10 runners or for it to be run in heats. result = 0% falls for any reason outside of the horse & jockey's individual control, but of course less drama for the punters to watch. Still, it would give the bookies more opportunities for people to bet and perhaps even boost revenue (£5 each way for the horse to be placed in its heat, then another £5 for it to be placed overall).... just musings.


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## Miss L Toe (19 April 2012)

Naturally said:



			My radical idea that won't get adopted is to turn it into "lanes," like human races but with rails so that the horses cannot cross lanes, and loose horses are kept out of the way. Would have to somehow make sure they all travelled the same distance (alter the course to be a figure of 8..?)
		
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Great stuff, I would bet on the chances of survival of the man in the white coat and flag who stood at the crossroads of you figure of eight, and stopped horses colliding.
Of course, all we need do is to run forty races over the course of a GN day, measure the times and the fastest one wins, obviously to make it fair, one jockey will have to ride all forty horses, if he unseats, the horse is caught and another jockey takes over, until he falls off, and so on: so many betting opportunities, and certainly innovative.
They don't need to waste money on all those fancy coloured silks either, lower the carbon foot print by using number cloths, like eventers wear.
Or a staggered start, with the top handicap horse starting at Aintree Car Park and the lightest in Front of the Stands. You need forty ponies to help hold the horses in their start box, so we can include the Pony Club as well, it would be a great photo opportunity if Katie Price turned up.


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## Sherri (19 April 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Or a staggered start, with the top handicap horse starting at Aintree Car Park and the lightest in Front of the Stands. You need forty ponies to help hold the horses in their start box, so we can include the Pony Club as well, it would be a great photo opportunity if Katie Price turned up.
		
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Interesting idea this one, a staggered start is used in Harness racing with Yards behind the gate used as a handicap... I do wonder if it would work at all in NH. but it would spread the field out for the first lap


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## Natch (19 April 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Great stuff, I would bet on the chances of survival of the man in the white coat and flag who stood at the crossroads of you figure of eight, and stopped horses colliding.
		
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Don't be daft, you'd have the railings in place for one direction, and then stewards to change their direction in plenty of time for the other direction! 




			You need forty ponies to help hold the horses in their start box, so we can include the Pony Club as well, it would be a great photo opportunity if Katie Price turned up.
		
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The ponies could be shetlands and do their own shetland pony grand national at the same time?! 

I was actually being serious in my post. Miss L Toe seems to have derailed my serious tone somewhat!


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## Achinghips (20 April 2012)

Honeylight said:



			I really agree with you.
Back in the late 1940s people were writing about the danger commercialism was having on racehorse breeding, & back then there were other bloodlines to breed out to; now myriads of Northern Dancer, Native Dancer & Mr Prospector & little else. Native Dancer wasn't completely sound & Northern Dancer throws a lot of white legged, washy bays.
Perhaps a financial incentive for using (what minuscule) stallions from other lines might be a solution. What about an incentive to breed some proper sound jumpers? With a stallion soundness & bone scheme like the old HIS scheme, which now has more Germanic warmbloods than the proper solid thoroughbred stallions it used to promote of old.
		
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Beautiful - the voice of reason - reasonable genetics for the job!


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## applecart14 (20 April 2012)

I think its the speed of the race that makes it worse.  Horses will jump flat when they jump a fence at speed, any fence, whether it be steeplechase fence, or show jump or XC jump.  The number of horses I think should be reduced.  This year the fences were reduced in height (couple of inches).  Don't really think reducing the fence height is the major problem.  Horses ages need increasing.  Age = experience.  This year is was increased from 6 years of age to 7.  I think maybe it should be looked at again.  There was also some ruling about wins/places in races prior to their running in the National, which all goes to help I guess.


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