# Comparrison video before and after update



## applecart14 (18 May 2014)

I took Bailey to Weston Lawns yesterday after I had clearance to carry on with him in full work following a mystery lameness.  It was his first time back jumping for five months and I was really excited but nervous too.

He loaded within about a minute and a half and we jumped clear in the 2ft 6 clear round and did a two foot six class and had a double clear although I didn't race him round the jump off but took things steady.  He didn't spook like he normally did and I was delighted with him.

Afterwards I took him back to the trailer and washed him off, fly sprayed him, put his fly rug on and put an instant ice pack on him just in case.

According to my friends that were there they said he looked well and wasn't in the least bit lame so I am delighted with him.  He stood tied up to the trailer without bother for hours and I let him have a pick of the grass for a while too after the class.  

I did worry after the class as I heard a funny noise coming from his leg so when I got him back home I turned him loose in the indoor school and it sounded like a clicking from a ligament.  I was getting a little paranoid by this stage until I found out the noise was coming from a loose shoe!  The farrier is hopefully coming back tommorow to put another nail in it!  Phew.

Here is the photo I took of him chilling between classes (his eyes were half shut) and a photo the photographer took of us in the class.

So pleased, looks like we are back running again.

My partner has booked me if to a 70cm mini one day event next saturday if it still goes ahead with the weather, its only twelve little XC fences so shouldn't be any problem. I am looking forward to it.  Have the physio coming tommorow so will see what she thinks may be wrong with him.




http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/applecart14/SANY2272.jpg

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/applecart14/SANY2279.jpg


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## applecart14 (18 May 2014)

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/applecart14/SANY1524b.jpg
This is a photo taken last June before his injury with the wheelbarrow.  Would be nice to be able to do this height again one day.


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## GreyCoast (18 May 2014)

How exciting for you! You must be so pleased. I think this horse is the very definition of handsome so hoping to see more photos and reports from you!


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## Moomin1 (18 May 2014)

What a gorgeous horse!!

I have to say, he looks quite hoppy on the right rein though?


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## Auslander (19 May 2014)

I really don't understand why you keep posting about this horse, when you must know you are going to get yet another roasting. If you choose to jump a an unsound horse with chronic bone/ligaments issues on hard ground, and to compete him on bute - because your vet says its ok, then thats your prerogative. Just don't get all affronted (again) when people don't agree with what you're doing.


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## popsdosh (19 May 2014)

Auslander said:



			I really don't understand why you keep posting about this horse, when you must know you are going to get yet another roasting. If you choose to jump a an unsound horse with chronic bone/ligaments issues on hard ground, and to compete him on bute - because your vet says its ok, then thats your prerogative. Just don't get all affronted (again) when people don't agree with what you're doing.
		
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Ditto!!!! cannot understand it ! why not go the whole hog with a neurectomy? You come over a loving your horse ,but you cant to keep pushing on with him when he should be retired.


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## chestnut cob (19 May 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			What a gorgeous horse!!

I have to say, he looks quite hoppy on the right rein though?
		
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I can't see any vids?  Has OP removed them...?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (19 May 2014)

if you keep flicking forward through pics you eventually come to a vid, albeit i think this is an old vid as i dont think OP is at that yard any longer.

that said, i saw more recent vids on another thread and the horse still looked lame so.....

there was a horse in NMT's class yesterday (BD medium) that was about 4/10th lame in walk and dog hopping in trot on a tight circle, im amazed rider didnt pull up or judge ring her out


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## chestnut cob (19 May 2014)

Ah, I did see that one but I thought I was looking for one of the horse at a competition whereas that one looks like schooling at home.  I have seen the other thread too but not commented.  Can never understand why people ask on a forum for advice about riding/ jumping a horse with issues; discuss it with your vet and just make a decision.  You don't need support from a forum of people you don't know to ratify your choice.  I worked my old (as in previous and he was old) horse on bute, he went hunting on it and was happy as larry.  Discussed extensively with my vet and physio, and he was seen probably every 6 months by the vet to reassess.  He was retired when needed, and I never felt the need to ask HHO what the right decision was.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (19 May 2014)

agree and i also think it depends why the horse is lame.

an older,slightly stiff when first starts working, boney lameness, on one bute a day, is a different kettle of fish to trying to cover up a soft tissue injury that will degenerate with further work (as well as the competing on bute issue!)......


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## Auslander (19 May 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			agree and i also think it depends why the horse is lame.

an older,slightly stiff when first starts working, boney lameness, on one bute a day, is a different kettle of fish to trying to cover up a soft tissue injury that will degenerate with further work (as well as the competing on bute issue!)......
		
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This is what bothers me. i've got no problem working a stiff older horse on a bit of bute, but I have a big problem with working a horse with a niggling ligament problem. It's no secret that I have the remains of a lovely PSG horse in my paddocks, and all he has done for the last year is walk on straight lines on the road, because I don't want him any more broken than he already is. He's just starting to do a bit of trot work now, and is holding up well, but if I'd buted him and worked him, rather than going through the agonisingly tedious rehab procedure, he'd be crippled by now


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## Leg_end (19 May 2014)

I've said it before but I agree with many of the others. There is a time and a place for putting horses on bute and working them through stiffness, arthritis etc but for a horse with soft tissue issues I cannot understand why you or your vet think this is the best option. 

I know you are very much head in sand about this all and don't want to hear it but it needs to be said. Would expect your friends have held back as either you don't listen when they've told you before or they don't want to upset you. 

I feel incredibly sad for this horse.


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## PolarSkye (19 May 2014)

Leg_end said:



			I feel incredibly sad for this horse.
		
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Me too.  And more than a little bit frustrated.

P


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## Moomin1 (19 May 2014)

I didn't realise this was a sore subject with this horse.  I just commented on exactly what I saw in the video posted above, and it did look clearly and very obviously lame on the right rein unfortunately. Sorry OP.


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## applecart14 (20 May 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			I didn't realise this was a sore subject with this horse.  I just commented on exactly what I saw in the video posted above, and it did look clearly and very obviously lame on the right rein unfortunately. Sorry OP.
		
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Don't worry I am used to all the criticism and stuff.  I didn't think anyone would go over old ground yet again, but obviously some people can't help themselves.  But if the horse was uncomfortable he would not jump and my friends said he was sound in the collecting ring so I cannot understand why people are so bitchy.  I only put the photos on because I was proud that I have got him back jumping again as I wasn't sure what I would be able to do with him.

Quite honestly wasn't expecting this level of nastiness all over again.  The vet has said the worse thing I could do with this horse would be to retire him.  The physio came out last night and apart from a little tightness in his hamstring could find nothing seriously wrong with him although did admit he was hopping on the right rein due to me stopping the one sachet of bute a day prior to her coming out as requested.  But also said what the vet had said that the horse was overcompensating all over the place (as that's what they do) and didn't feel it was an issue.

Ah well, I am proud of him and don't really care what anyone else thinks anymore.  I am not burying my head in the sand, I am bringing him back into work to see what he is capable of, and if he cannot be jumped anymore so be it, he will still be my handsome boy.  

And then you can then start taking your unkind comments out on some other poor sod.


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## ester (20 May 2014)

I suppose the only thing I would say - especially if the physio agreed that he is still hopping on the right rein is to be careful how much you attribute to him appearing sound at a competition/don't underestimate the affect of some adrenalin - a horse walking down the road will immediately bring my slightly stiff boy completely sound in a powering welsh trot! Fwiw vet has also said that he is better to stay in the work he is as I was unsure recently but apparently he compares pretty well to others he sees his age, no history of any soft tissue issues with him behind though.


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## kerilli (20 May 2014)

applecart14 said:



			Don't worry I am used to all the criticism and stuff.  I didn't think anyone would go over old ground yet again, but obviously some people can't help themselves.  But if the horse was uncomfortable he would not jump and my friends said he was sound in the collecting ring so I cannot understand why people are so bitchy.
		
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Unfortunately, you are 100% dead wrong on that. An uncomfortable horse will often keep jumping. Adrenalin totally masks the pain. I've seen an obviously lame horse go sound ALL DAY hunting (including jumping hedges and 5 bar gates, as the Second Whipper In's horse) and then go dog lame again when turned for home at the end of the day. (I didn't agree with that either!) 
I had a horse who was a horrific headshaker, obviously in a lot of pain in his muzzle area. The moment he was turned to a jump, he stopped headshaking, until he was over the fence. The concentration distracted him from the pain.

Your friends probably said what you wanted to hear. Friends tend to do that! Couldn't you feel it? 

Nobody's being a bitch. Most of us wouldn't know who you were if we passed you at a show, fgs. People are concerned about a good, honest, sweet horse who is in pain and being asked to do more than he can or should. Pottering about for a hack, say, rather than retiring, is not the same as going out competing again. Doing more damage is not fair to him at all.    
That's all.


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## PolarSkye (20 May 2014)

applecart14 said:



			if the horse was uncomfortable he would not jump and my friends said he was sound in the collecting ring so I cannot understand why people are so bitchy.
		
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Adrenalin is a powerful anaesthetic.  My (lame on two bute a day due to a bone injury in his knee and an inflamed suspensory) boy was galloping around his field on Saturday morning and jumping his water bucket.  I was doing my nut!  

I am not being bitchy . . . but is your horse sound or not?  Physio says he is hopping due to you dropping his bute . . . to me, that says he is lame OFF bute . . . in other words not sound.

As I have said before, I have no doubt that you love your horse . . . but if he were mine, I wouldn't be working him . . . I would be resting him while I found a reason for his lameness/the hopping.

I know I am wasting my breath . . . and I know that he's not my horse . . . but please take a step back and consider that perhaps people are being so strident because they don't want to see you make a massive mistake . . . in other words they care.

P


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (20 May 2014)

kerilli said:



			Unfortunately, you are 100% dead wrong on that. An uncomfortable horse will often keep jumping. Adrenalin totally masks the pain. I've seen an obviously lame horse go sound ALL DAY hunting (including jumping hedges and 5 bar gates, as the Second Whipper In's horse) and then go dog lame again when turned for home at the end of the day. (I didn't agree with that either!) 
I had a horse who was a horrific headshaker, obviously in a lot of pain in his muzzle area. The moment he was turned to a jump, he stopped headshaking, until he was over the fence. The concentration distracted him from the pain.

Your friends probably said what you wanted to hear. Friends tend to do that! Couldn't you feel it? 

Nobody's being a bitch. Most of us wouldn't know who you were if we passed you at a show, fgs. People are concerned about a good, honest, sweet horse who is in pain and being asked to do more than he can or should. Pottering about for a hack, say, rather than retiring, is not the same as going out competing again. Doing more damage is not fair to him at all.    
That's all.
		
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this.

you should not be buting him to compete him and you should not be buting him in order to compete him!

1 bute a day in order to keep a stiff horse gently walking out each day is VERY different to buting a horse in order to jump it.

pull your head out your backside.


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## Leg_end (20 May 2014)

applecart14 said:



			he was hopping on the right rein due to me stopping the one sachet of bute a day prior to her coming out as requested.....
		
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So your horse is hopping lame without bute and you still feel that it's a good idea to jump him?!? I'm all for keeping a horse in GENTLE (ie steady hacking, minimal schooling etc) work where appropriate but I think you really need to sit back and re-read through some of the things you have said as it's ringing serious alarm bells for lots of very experienced people on here and you are carrying on blindly. 



applecart14 said:



			the horse was overcompensating all over the place
		
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I would expect a lame horse to over compensate - many horses often show their lameness in another area before you find the original cause of the problem. But it would flag a problem to me. 



applecart14 said:



			I am bringing him back into work to see what he is capable of, and if he cannot be jumped anymore so be it, he will still be my handsome boy.
		
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No, you are keeping him in full work (as per your thread in vet) which includes schooling and jumping. 

I stick to my earlier statements, you are burying your head in the sand and your poor horse is suffering because of it


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## PolarSkye (20 May 2014)

applecart14 said:



			I am not burying my head in the sand, I am bringing him back into work to see what he is capable of, and if he cannot be jumped anymore so be it, he will still be my handsome boy
		
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There is a very big difference between bringing a horse (with a known soft tissue injury) back into work and taking it out competing.  

Your handsome boy needs you to put HIM first and take things much more slowly.  

P


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## vam (20 May 2014)

Words fail me really, my boy looks fab when you see him in the field but is properly lame and there is a big question mark over him  seeing out the year let alone being ridden again and not a chance of him being jumped that&#8217;s for sure. 
I have been one of those that jumped a horse in pain, after a kick I didn&#8217;t know had fractured the surface of the bone I took him jumping a couple of weeks later. We had a couple of stops over a 1m course that he should have flown over, that was my only sign that something was wrong. If it had been a smaller course I bet I wouldn&#8217;t have even had that as he would have just kept jumping. He was lame the next day because I asked him (unknowingly) to do something that his body couldn&#8217;t cope with. If I had known what was wrong there wouldn&#8217;t have been a chance of me even riding him let alone jumping him. 
Due to a different injury he is now about 2 tenths lame, not a chance in this lifetime would I get on and ride him currently, even at 1 tenths lame I would be unhappy. Yet I know if I put a saddle on him tomorrow he would be as happy a Larry to hack out, trot canter the lot if I asked him. I&#8217;d rather spoon out my eyeballs than abuse his good nature like that.
You are not bringing him into work to see if he can stand up to it, you are sticking your head in the sand and ignoring it until it will be too late. Step back, drop the work down to light hacking and enjoy him for a few more years rather than a few months until he breaks too badly to fix.


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## dogatemysalad (20 May 2014)

Sometimes people only listen to part of what the vet is saying and forget the whole message. You know your horse is lame, you flagged your awareness in your opening post. 
My horse is sounder than yours, following a ligament injury, buts she's one BSJA horse that'll never be jumping again.


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## PolarSkye (20 May 2014)

vam said:



			I know if I put a saddle on him tomorrow he would be as happy a Larry to hack out, trot canter the lot if I asked him. I&#8217;d rather spoon out my eyeballs than abuse his good nature like that.
You are not bringing him into work to see if he can stand up to it, you are sticking your head in the sand and ignoring it until it will be too late. Step back, drop the work down to light hacking and enjoy him for a few more years rather than a few months until he breaks too badly to fix.
		
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Beautifully put.  This is how I feel about my boy . . . to look at him in the hour or so he has in the field while I muck him out, you wouldn't know he was lame/broken . . . and if I saddled him up and pointed him at a jump he'd fly over it . . . but I'd never forgive myself if I knowingly (or even unknowingly) worked him while he was broken.  Before his injury he could jump 1.25 with his eyes shut . . . if he never jumps again but I have him sound, I'll be happy.  

P


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## kerilli (20 May 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			Beautifully put.  This is how I feel about my boy . . . to look at him in the hour or so he has in the field while I muck him out, you wouldn't know he was lame/broken . . . and if I saddled him up and pointed him at a jump he'd fly over it . . . but I'd never forgive myself if I knowingly (or even unknowingly) worked him while he was broken.  Before his injury he could jump 1.25 with his eyes shut . . . if he never jumps again but I have him sound, I'll be happy.  

P
		
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This is the agonising situation SO many of us go through for years with ex-comp horses which are keen and honest and would just LOVE to jump again, but which we unfortunately KNOW would break if we let them. It is utterly heartbreaking, but because we care and want them to last, we protect them from further injury as much as we can. 
OP, I really do think you have your head in the sand about this, unfortunately. We aren't ganging up on you, we are simply all concerned for your horse. That really is all.


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## TheMule (20 May 2014)

My lovely old boy is far sounder than your horse is and he's happily retired out in the field. He owes me nothing and I would never contemplate exploiting his good nature.

Your poor horse


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## Auslander (20 May 2014)

I'm almost certainly one of the mean people you are referring to. As stated in your other post, i have a wonderful horse, who has done amazing things over the years, and is now virtually retired at 16 due to chronic ligament issues. Nothing would make me happier than to be able to get on him and play around with all his fancy moves, but i don't - because it would break him. My vet told me to keep him in work. light hacking, a bit of gentle work in the school once he feels strong enough, just enough to keep him mobile. i think our horses are very similar in terms of the issues they have, and the countless veterinary procedures we have paid through the nose for - and this is why I get so frustrated with your posts. You just seem to be blinded by the desire to go out and jump/compete him, and I wouldn't do that to my horse. He is a much loved hack/field ornament, and he has a home for life. He owes me nothing, and he deserves to have a nice relaxed life now. I'm still trying to fix him - and it might be that one day, he is able to do more, but I'm not banking on it.
Even your comment that "if" he doesn't stand up to the work, you'll rethink the situation makes me cringe. I think that deep down; you know he won't - so why not thank him for all he's done for you by giving him a lovely semi retirement, kept ticking over, but not out hammering round cross country courses on hard ground. I really can't see how any vet would suggest that's fair for any older horse, let alone one that is already telling you he's struggling.


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## PolarSkye (20 May 2014)

This is an extract from my thread about rehabbing my boy . . . it's actually from the first entry . . . if you see ANY similarities between what I say about my boy and yours, please think twice about working Bailey until you really KNOW what is causing his intermittent lameness (on bute).

"_So . . . two weeks ago, we noticed he wasn't quite right . . . fine in the field, no heat, no swelling, just not "right" . . . we chose to rest him for a week and see how he got on. I had the "navicular alarm" ringing loudly in my head (he was diagnosed with navicular and sidebone almost two years ago and we have been "treating" him with bar shoes, rolled toes and work . . . and he has been sound). Still no change. Still lame. Lameness switching from near to off fore, but definitely not right in front.

Last Thursday, I got my farrier to have a look at him to check for abscesses, stone bruises, laminitis, etc. Once he had ruled all of those out, I contacted the vet who came out yesterday . . . gave him a thorough lameness work-up and after watching him lunged and trotted up on the tarmac and in the school and running his hands over/investigating found some tenderness in his off fore suspensory. Nerve blocked his off fore hoof because that's where we were seeing the most lameness just to rule out navicular - still lame. Nerve blocked the suspensory on the same leg - sound.

Because I was a tad worried about possible shoulder/wither pain due to a dodgy hack a couple of weeks ago, he also investigated his back, shoulders and neck and was extremely impressed by Kal's suppleness - particularly given his age (he's 15). 

So . . . vet is booked to come out next Wednesday to x-ray and scan (couldn't come out earlier - I could have another vet from the practice but this guy is unbelievably good so I'm prepared to wait). In the meantime, I will box rest him until we know what we are dealing with. He won't like it . . . I may have to park his fieldmate in his neighbour's stable during the day and then muck out for my fellow livery . . . but I feel it's necessary and I'd rather be safe than sorry.

I am considering yesterday Day 1 . . . and I am anticipating the journey to be a long one . . . up to a year . . . so I hope you, my HHO friends, will come along with me for the ride._"

Kal has since been scanned and x-rayed which has confirmed that he has bone damage (likely due to a kick) on the outside of his right "knee" and an inflamed suspensory ligament.  He had his first shock wave treatment a week ago today, is on (mostly) box rest (he gets an hour/90 minutes out in the field while I muck him out/do yard chores because he is a twonk while tied up and this keeps him quiet), and he gets a gentle spin round the walker every few days just to keep his brain busy.  And that's IT.  He will have three more sessions of shock wave, possibly an injection of steroids, then we will re-scan and go from there.  If he is still not sound/there is still inflammation, I will find him an appropriate yard, remove his shoes, and try rehabbing him barefoot.  If he doesn't come sound after that, he will either be permanently retired or (if he is in significant pain/is an idiot/unhappy in retirement) PTS.  My heart will shatter into a million pieces . . . I can't bear to think of him in pain, and I can't bear to contemplate not seeing his beautiful self every morning (and every afternoon).  But I MUST do what's right by him.  Sure, I could bute him to the eyeballs and keep working him, jumping him, etc. . . . but I just can't.  He is in pain.  So is your horse.  Do the right thing.

P


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## Goldenstar (20 May 2014)

I am not going to comment any more on this horses work plan .
However it's simply not true to say if it hurt he would not jump .
Horses are hard wired not to show lameness because they were predated animal in their past .
Adrenaline will cover lameness and horses are mostly generous and kind and strive to please .


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## applecart14 (21 May 2014)

Wow how judgemental and totally nasty you lot can be.

For a recap the horse had an injury from which I was told he had recovered from.  He did recover from it but then had a nasty injury which he sustained when his leg got stuck in a wheelbarrow.

The horse was attended to and had all the necessary treatment and a treatment plan was devised for him.  The vet came back a number of times to reassess him.  I was told to put him back into work.  I did so and he was 100%.  Then one night (the day before his reassesment at the vets) he went lame.  When I took him to the vets the next day thinking he had done his suspensory branch the vet said he had a foot problem, started digging and found a large heamatoma.  He was put on box rest for ten days, and treated as an abcess.  The farrier came out and replaced the shoe and the horse was fine, but when shod again developed another haematoma.  Again the ten days box rest.
Again the shoe back on and bringing back into work.  Again 100% sound.  Then five shoeings without problem.

Then he went lame again a few days after another shoeing.  But he remained lame.  I took him for a lameness work up and he was nerve blocked.  Told two tenths lame due to coffin joint, one tenth lame possibly/presumably due to supsensory.  Steroid injection couple days later in coffin joint.  Never got over lameness.  Rang vet.  Told to keep going in work as steroid injections can take time.  Still not right.  Think vet came out again or I spoke to him (cant remember) but did three week bute test.  Was lamer on three bute but then became better on two bute (presume may have tweaked something in field which bute settled).  Eventually on one bute and is sound.  Vet came out when I said he was lame on three bute.  By the time he came out teh horse was on two bute and said he looked fine, no heat/swelling and no reaction/pain on palpatation.  Said horse was still overcompensating and felt this was due to mechanical lameness and not pain related and said to carry on with trial.  By this stage he was on two bute a day.  The vet said he looked sound and was tracking up well with the off hind.  When I took him out last week he was on one bute a day to keep him comfortable.  When I studied some of the horses in the collecting ring being warmed up there were quite a few that were definetely not sound and looked clearly unlevel and considerably worse than my boy has ever looked.

I can't understand why I am being so harshly criticised when I have done everything I can for this horse, from getting him moved from a yard that was obvioulsy contributing to his ongoing problems (being chased through deep mud).  I have consulted a vet and followed the correct procedure for the horse doing what the vet advised each and every time and followed his advice to the letter.  I have had the physio out and got him seen to and the physio could not find anything drastically  wrong  with him other than tightness in his hamstring on his off hind - this was the night before last and a slight reluctance to lift his back when she made him arch it but this was not thought to be a massive issue.  She has offered me a special pulse mag machine and I will be undertaking raised pole work which she has suggested for him as it wil be beneficial in his case.

The horse has lost a lot of weight due to a diet, in order to take the extra weight of his joints and he is on (and has been for years) a good joint supplement.  At the weekend I have bought two bottles of 'no bute' and have started him on 'no bute' as an alternative to conventional bute.

The vet/physio and I know the horse inside out and know all his problems.  The vet has said he doubts very much that the horse will 'break' than any other horse although he has a 40% chance of the branch injury reoccuring.  But then he went 18 months jumping 1m + without any problems so there is no need to think this is not the case now.

I am not going to comment on this post anymore.


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## ester (21 May 2014)

I think we just come from completely different places, F was approx 3/10 lame in front blocked to coffin joint. Steroid injection/different shoeing didn't help, more work = more lame if he hadn't come sound barefoot he would have retired or potentially buted and lightly hacked after having a significant amount of time off although IMO he was too lame to do this with and our other horse has a suspensory branch injury (minor on scan ie not a complete hole just damaged fibres) and is not expected to do any schooling again - if in my head I combine these two horses they would be having a quiet life.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (21 May 2014)

"Then he went lame again a few days after another shoeing. But he remained lame. I took him for a lameness work up and he was nerve blocked. Told two tenths lame due to coffin joint, one tenth lame possibly/presumably due to supsensory. Steroid injection couple days later in coffin joint. Never got over lameness. Rang vet. Told to keep going in work as steroid injections can take time. Still not right. Think vet came out again or I spoke to him (cant remember) but did three week bute test. Was lamer on three bute but then became better on two bute (presume may have tweaked something in field which bute settled). Eventually on one bute and is sound. Vet came out when I said he was lame on three bute. By the time he came out teh horse was on two bute and said he looked fine, no heat/swelling and no reaction/pain on palpatation. Said horse was still overcompensating and felt this was due to mechanical lameness and not pain related and said to carry on with trial. By this stage he was on two bute a day. The vet said he looked sound and was tracking up well with the off hind. When I took him out last week he was on one bute a day to keep him comfortable. When I studied some of the horses in the collecting ring being warmed up there were quite a few that were definetely not sound and looked clearly unlevel and considerably worse than my boy has"

right.
so he went lame and a soft tissue injury was suspected. He has never come sound without painkillers, and you think its ok to keep JUMPING him?!

what planet are you on.

just because other ignorant sods ride lame horses, is that really behaviour to emulate?


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## kerilli (21 May 2014)

Oh dear. It really is so much easier to brand us all 'judgemental and nasty' rather than as 'concerned for your horse', isn't it? Then you can just discount all this caring advice as 'just a bunch of nasty b***hes being horrible to poor little old me who is trying to do the best for their horse'.
Personally, since I don't even know you, I neither know nor care what you do in your riding and competing, as long as it isn't detrimental to a horse with (as you have catalogued) a history of problems and lameness. 

Shall we start a "I have a paddock ornament who LOVES to gallop and jump but we absolutely can't do that any more because of x,y,z" thread? I'll go first...


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## Goldenstar (21 May 2014)

AC I am not sure you want us to say.
But it's not judgemental to disagree in a fundamental way with your approach and say so.
If you only want people to agree with you I am not sure why you post.
You post a thread on HHO for a view from a range of people and that's what you will get .
Like Kerrilli I have been many times through the process where I have had to stop working horses who loved their job but physically would pay the price of continuing many times .


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## ester (21 May 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			right.
so he went lame and a soft tissue injury was suspected. He has never come sound without painkillers, and you think its ok to keep JUMPING him?!
		
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hmm I hadn't quite got that in it's totality PS,  I thought that when the vet had last said he was sound it was with no bute in his system but guess I might have gotten confused, OP certainly says in this post that he was lame/hopping when taken off bute for physio visit, the description of which sounds like it is more than a bit of stiffness that eases with work.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (21 May 2014)

i am reading it as horse has never come sound off bute since last bout of lameness.

so might look level now but is undoubtedly due to the painkillers in its system.


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## ester (21 May 2014)

yes I think it is my confusion from previous threads.


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## Pinkvboots (21 May 2014)

Op I know its frustrating when you have a horse that just wont come sound but to carry on regardless is not fair,horses dont know they are lame they will just carry on and on if ridden.
I have the most gorgeous Warmblood she is a fantastic ride, had various lameness problems seen the vet more than any horse I know, she loves to work she only has to see her tack and boots and she is waiting at the door ready to go, she will hooley round the field without a care for her leg, I am gutted everytime I look at her to think she may never be ridden, sometimes you just got to accept they just wont come right.

Have you tried just turning him away for a year can sometimes do them the world of good.


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## montanna (21 May 2014)

Sounds to me that your vet is using your horse as a cash cow. You do know that every time you call him out, you are lining his pocket don't you?

Turn your poor, honest, loving horse out in a field and reassess in a years time (with a different vet!). If he means that much to you, you would listen to him.


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## PolarSkye (21 May 2014)

applecart14 said:



			Wow how judgemental and totally nasty you lot can be.

For a recap the horse had an injury from which I was told he had recovered from.  He did recover from it but then had a nasty injury which he sustained when his leg got stuck in a wheelbarrow.

The horse was attended to and had all the necessary treatment and a treatment plan was devised for him.  The vet came back a number of times to reassess him.  I was told to put him back into work.  I did so and he was 100%.  Then one night (the day before his reassesment at the vets) he went lame.  When I took him to the vets the next day thinking he had done his suspensory branch the vet said he had a foot problem, started digging and found a large heamatoma.  He was put on box rest for ten days, and treated as an abcess.  The farrier came out and replaced the shoe and the horse was fine, but when shod again developed another haematoma.  Again the ten days box rest.
Again the shoe back on and bringing back into work.  Again 100% sound.  Then five shoeings without problem.

Then he went lame again a few days after another shoeing.  But he remained lame.  I took him for a lameness work up and he was nerve blocked.  Told two tenths lame due to coffin joint, one tenth lame possibly/presumably due to supsensory.  Steroid injection couple days later in coffin joint.  Never got over lameness.  Rang vet.  Told to keep going in work as steroid injections can take time.  Still not right.  Think vet came out again or I spoke to him (cant remember) but did three week bute test.  Was lamer on three bute but then became better on two bute (presume may have tweaked something in field which bute settled).  Eventually on one bute and is sound.  Vet came out when I said he was lame on three bute.  By the time he came out teh horse was on two bute and said he looked fine, no heat/swelling and no reaction/pain on palpatation.  Said horse was still overcompensating and felt this was due to mechanical lameness and not pain related and said to carry on with trial.  By this stage he was on two bute a day.  The vet said he looked sound and was tracking up well with the off hind.  When I took him out last week he was on one bute a day to keep him comfortable.  When I studied some of the horses in the collecting ring being warmed up there were quite a few that were definetely not sound and looked clearly unlevel and considerably worse than my boy has ever looked.

I can't understand why I am being so harshly criticised when I have done everything I can for this horse, from getting him moved from a yard that was obvioulsy contributing to his ongoing problems (being chased through deep mud).  I have consulted a vet and followed the correct procedure for the horse doing what the vet advised each and every time and followed his advice to the letter.  I have had the physio out and got him seen to and the physio could not find anything drastically  wrong  with him other than tightness in his hamstring on his off hind - this was the night before last and a slight reluctance to lift his back when she made him arch it but this was not thought to be a massive issue.  She has offered me a special pulse mag machine and I will be undertaking raised pole work which she has suggested for him as it wil be beneficial in his case.

The horse has lost a lot of weight due to a diet, in order to take the extra weight of his joints and he is on (and has been for years) a good joint supplement.  At the weekend I have bought two bottles of 'no bute' and have started him on 'no bute' as an alternative to conventional bute.

The vet/physio and I know the horse inside out and know all his problems.  The vet has said he doubts very much that the horse will 'break' than any other horse although he has a 40% chance of the branch injury reoccuring.  But then he went 18 months jumping 1m + without any problems so there is no need to think this is not the case now.

I am not going to comment on this post anymore.
		
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I can make neither head nor tail of this . . . it's utterly confusing.  Two simple questions:  if your horse is sound, why is he on bute?  And if he's on bute, why are you jumping him?

Genuinely baffled.

P

P.S.  Please can someone tell me what I've said anywhere in this thread that could be classified as nasty?


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## Auslander (21 May 2014)

kerilli said:



			Shall we start a "I have a paddock ornament who LOVES to gallop and jump but we absolutely can't do that any more because of x,y,z" thread? I'll go first...   

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Please do! I can contribute to a thread like that til the cows come home!


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## kerilli (21 May 2014)

I suspect it might turn into a pity party.  Put it this way, at the moment I have 4 horses, which I admit is quite a lot for anyone. 2 have KS (about to be medicated, one for the 2nd time, just to make her comfier as a field ornament - this horse is by far the straightest and boldest I have EVER sat on, she could be a total xc machine if she was tough enough) and 2 have ataxia, gradually improving. One of the 4 is on the road, one or two of the others might be in the future if we're really lucky... but that's horses. They all have a lovely quality of life.  

So, can I get my head around ANYONE buting up a horse (which is "hopping lame" without bute), and competing it over fences (esp when competing on bute is against the rules)?  No, I can't. Not at all. Not for a second. Poor horse.


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## Auslander (21 May 2014)

kerilli said:



			I suspect it might turn into a pity party.  Put it this way, at the moment I have 4 horses, which I admit is quite a lot for anyone. 2 have KS (about to be medicated, one for the 2nd time, just to make her comfier as a field ornament - this horse is by far the straightest and boldest I have EVER sat on, she could be a total xc machine if she was tough enough) and 2 have ataxia, gradually improving. One of the 4 is on the road, one or two of the others might be in the future if we're really lucky... but that's horses. They all have a lovely quality of life.  

So, can I get my head around ANYONE buting up a horse (which is "hopping lame" without bute), and competing it over fences (esp when competing on bute is against the rules)?  No, I can't. Not at all. Not for a second. Poor horse.
		
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Likewise. And I object rather strongly to being called nasty and judgemental for not agreeing with the way this horse is being treated. 

You can throw thousands at a horse, and love it to distraction, but still do wrong by it - and this is what i believe is happening here. I find the OP to be one of the most blinkered people I have ever come across on here - no idea why she posts when she has no inclination to listen to a word that anyone has to say, and hates us all for not being sheep. Maybe Chit, Chat and Tack on FB would be a more receptive audience, if "well dun hun ur amazin" is what she wants to hear. They will probably recommend Sudocreme to sort it out too, which may be worth a try.


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## TPO (21 May 2014)

I don't get this at all.

Regardless of whatever your versions of events are the point is at that moment in time your horse was lame, while already on bute, and you continued riding and jumping said horse.

I don't care who told you what there is no justifiable or excusable reason to be jumping a lame horse to satisfy your wants.

How does anything you've said/written make logical sense to you? 

You are the one who has said he is hopping lame without bute. Are there not alarm bells going off to be that lame without NSAIDs and STILL lame with them?

Put yourself in your horse'a position; would you like to hopping lame and made to run & jump?

I despair


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## TarrSteps (21 May 2014)

There is one particularity question that does not seem to have been answered: WHY is the horse lame without the Bute? What, exactly, is the mechanism in play?

The reason I ask is because (look away now) I have given horses Bute and then used them for jumping. Almost always in schoolmaster situations, where other variables such as footing, work load and course design are carefully controlled. And along with knowledgeable vet and farrier support. I know of older hunters that get a bit of 'help' to do their work optimally. All of these horses have KNOWN conditions that are not being exacerbated by work. Overwhelmingly arthritic conditions, chronic and progressive. In most cases the horses are better for it, like old people who take an aspirin so they can continue to enjoy the things they enjoy. None of these horses are competing or in situations where medication is prohibited. (Unaff competitions are often run under affiliated rules and obviously RC and PC have their own rules.) 

And everyone involved KNOWS they aren't really sound. 

It's a value judgement. I take NSAIDs on a bad day.  BUT - and it's a big one - I also curtail my activities. There are things I love but just do not do now because I know my body can't take it and I'd rather not break myself completely. Horses do not have this choice.

OP (if you're there) if you want to jump yourself on painkillers, no one can stop you. But you must realise that many people do not share your view and consider this a significant welfare issue. I'm probably on the hardy end of that spectrum and even I have to wonder about the issues of diagnosis and competing.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (22 May 2014)

"All of these horses have KNOWN conditions that are not being exacerbated by work. Overwhelmingly arthritic conditions"

i think thats the key issue. With that sort of problem, work is needed to help comfort, to keep the horse moving etc and doing that work will not make the problem worse.

soft tissue is very different.

and of course as you point out, there is the issue of competing whilst using banned/controlled substances......


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## Amymay (22 May 2014)

I guess a lame horse, is a lame horse. Mechanical or otherwise.


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## PolarSkye (22 May 2014)

amymay said:



			I guess a lame horse, is a lame horse. Mechanical or otherwise.
		
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Yes, I'm not sure I understand mechanical lameness . . . would someone care to explain?  

P


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (22 May 2014)

just guessing but i would say mechanical is where the joint is fused or partially fused and thus one leg does not have a range of movement equal to its opposite pair, so the horse can look unlevel but not actually feel pain?

rather than pain related where the horse tries to avoid loading the inflammed area?

its so hard with animals because they cannot tell us if it hurts, how much, and if they want to keep working.


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## TPO (22 May 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			Yes, I'm not sure I understand mechanical lameness . . . would someone care to explain?  

P
		
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My simplistic attempt at explaining it is...

Mechanical is because of actual (bio)mechanics rather than a response or compensation for pain/an injury etc.

So a mechanical lameness could be something like the horse had suffered a trauma, say a chipped pelvis, that it is has recovered from and is not in acute or chronic pain but is no longer level/in alignment through that structure. 

...awaits someone who is better at explaining to post a better response. I know it well in my head but not so good at the words thing!


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## PolarSkye (22 May 2014)

TPO said:



			My simplistic attempt at explaining it is...

Mechanical is because of actual (bio)mechanics rather than a response or compensation for pain/an injury etc.

So a mechanical lameness could be something like the horse had suffered a trauma, say a chipped pelvis, that it is has recovered from and is not in acute or chronic pain but is no longer level/in alignment through that structure. 

...awaits someone who is better at explaining to post a better response. I know it well in my head but not so good at the words thing!
		
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Thanks - that makes sense and was sort of what I was thinking . . . but, presumably, if mechanical lameness/unlevelness is just a manifestation of the horse compensating for being "wonky" then that could be alleviated by a reputable chiro/physio/osteo/farrier, etc.?  

What about the term "bridle lame" . . . does it really relate to the bridle or is it something either elsewhere or something physical wrt the horse's head/teeth/poll, etc.?

P


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## Horsemad12 (22 May 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			"All of these horses have KNOWN conditions that are not being exacerbated by work. Overwhelmingly arthritic conditions"

i think thats the key issue. With that sort of problem, work is needed to help comfort, to keep the horse moving etc and doing that work will not make the problem worse.

soft tissue is very different.

and of course as you point out, there is the issue of competing whilst using banned/controlled substances......
		
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This ^^^^^


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## TarrSteps (22 May 2014)

'Bridle lame' means something about being ridden is making the horse look lame. Saddle fit and poor training/riding being the most common.


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## MerrySherryRider (22 May 2014)

As I understand it mechanical lameness is a pain response to an injury affecting the bone, tendons, ligaments or other softy bits. 


Neurological lameness would cover illnesses like wobblers and metabolic reasons for lameness would be laminitis etc. 

Where a vet when you need one ? 

While, I feel sorry for AC for being on the receiving end of such intense debate, this thread is pretty worthwhile in discussing the dilemma's many of us face in deciding how much work is too much after injury and the role of medicating an otherwise lame horse to work.


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## TPO (22 May 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			Thanks - that makes sense and was sort of what I was thinking . . . but, presumably, if mechanical lameness/unlevelness is just a manifestation of the horse compensating for being "wonky" then that could be alleviated by a reputable chiro/physio/osteo/farrier, etc.?
		
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Not necessarily although most things can be improved upon with therapy and correct work. Using the same pelvis example then you really wouldn't want a chiro (or any therapist) going in and working on it if, for example, it was an older and healed injury. Sure you'd work around it and work to strengthen the supporting muscles and ligaments but wouldn't work directly on the structure. 

That is just one example though and everything should be judged on individual merit by an experienced "team" (vet, therapist etc).

Mechanical isn't always a pain response - it can be compensating for something like one leg shorter than the other (yes it does happen!)


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## PolarSkye (22 May 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			As I understand it mechanical lameness is a pain response to an injury affecting the bone, tendons, ligaments or other softy bits.
		
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So lame then . . . as in un-sound.  So not compensating, but ouchiness because something (erm, a suspensory branch perhaps) hurts? 




			While, I feel sorry for AC for being on the receiving end of such intense debate, this thread is pretty worthwhile in discussing the dilemma's many of us face in deciding how much work is too much after injury and the role of medicating an otherwise lame horse to work.
		
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I'm afraid we part company here - I don't feel sorry for AC - she is competing a horse she herself has stated is lame (bridle/mechanical or otherwise) . . . what did she really expect people to say?  

I do agree with you, however, that it can be difficult sometimes to know how quickly to bring a previously lame horse back into work - especially one with complex issues - but that's why getting a definitive diagnosis (or set of diagnoses) is so very important.  My own boy has fairly complex issues . . . he has the beginnings of arthritis in his hocks, he has navicular and sidebone and now he has bone trauma to his right knee and injury to his proximal suspensory.  He was sound before the bone/suspensory issue, but managing him through the recovery is not simple - not working isn't good for his navicular or the arthritis, but working the affected ligament could be catastrophic.  The thing is, we know what his issues are because he has been effectively and professionally diagnosed.  Seems to me the OP and/or her vet is (at best) guessing.

P


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## kerilli (22 May 2014)

I think "mechanical lameness" usually means an unsoundness which does not involve pain any more. So, it would not be affected by bute, for example.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (22 May 2014)

kerilli said:



			I think "mechanical lameness" usually means an unsoundness which does not involve pain any more. So, it would not be affected by bute, for example.
		
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that is how i understand it too.


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## Gamebird (22 May 2014)

kerilli said:



			I think "mechanical lameness" usually means an unsoundness which does not involve pain any more. So, it would not be affected by bute, for example.
		
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Exactly.

So *Physical Lameness* - caused by pain coming from bone/soft tissue. Should be possible to block out with a joint or nerve block or eliminate with a sufficient quantity of pain-killer.
*Neurological Lameness* - nothing wrong with the leg per se, but there is a problem with the nerves running between the leg and the brain (either the peripheral nerves, spinal cord or brain itself) which means that the leg is moved in an abnormal fashion.
*Mechanical Lameness* - literally a mechanical problem which prevents the horse from moving normally eg. a joint which has been fused (and is no longer painful) but doesn't have the same range of flexion as the opposite leg or eg. a severe conformational problem which means that the leg doesn't locomote in a normal fashion. Non-painful (and generally rarer than people think - a lot of what people claim to be 'mechanical' problems are good old-fashioned painful physical lamenesses). These won't block out or be eliminated by NSAIDs.
*Bridle Lameness* - tack/schooling issue (occasionally teeth) which means the the horse may nod when ridden and give the appearance of lameness, but there is no actual problem with the legs.


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## ClobellsandBaubles (22 May 2014)

kerilli said:



			I think "mechanical lameness" usually means an unsoundness which does not involve pain any more. So, it would not be affected by bute, for example.
		
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That's interesting as in people I always understood the term mechanical (ie. mechanical back pain) to be something cause by poor posture/ 'conformation'/ habitual movements so it's not quite working smoothly and that is causing the problem.


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## TarrSteps (22 May 2014)

ClobellsandBaubles said:



			That's interesting as in people I always understood the term mechanical (ie. mechanical back pain) to be something cause by poor posture/ 'conformation'/ habitual movements so it's not quite working smoothly and that is causing the problem.
		
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Would that not be more 'postural' or 'compensatory'? Still pain though.


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## TarrSteps (22 May 2014)

Gamebird said:



			Exactly.

So *Physical Lameness* - caused by pain coming from bone/soft tissue. Should be possible to block out with a joint or nerve block or eliminate with a sufficient quantity of pain-killer.
*Neurological Lameness* - nothing wrong with the leg per se, but there is a problem with the nerves running between the leg and the brain (either the peripheral nerves, spinal cord or brain itself) which means that the leg is moved in an abnormal fashion.
*Mechanical Lameness* - literally a mechanical problem which prevents the horse from moving normally eg. a joint which has been fused (and is no longer painful) but doesn't have the same range of flexion as the opposite leg or eg. a severe conformational problem which means that the leg doesn't locomote in a normal fashion. Non-painful (and generally rarer than people think - a lot of what people claim to be 'mechanical' problems are good old-fashioned painful physical lamenesses). These won't block out or be eliminated by NSAIDs.
*Bridle Lameness* - tack/schooling issue (occasionally teeth) which means the the horse may nod when ridden and give the appearance of lameness, but there is no actual problem with the legs.
		
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Great, succinct explanation.


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## PolarSkye (22 May 2014)

Gamebird said:



			Exactly.

So *Physical Lameness* - caused by pain coming from bone/soft tissue. Should be possible to block out with a joint or nerve block or eliminate with a sufficient quantity of pain-killer.
*Neurological Lameness* - nothing wrong with the leg per se, but there is a problem with the nerves running between the leg and the brain (either the peripheral nerves, spinal cord or brain itself) which means that the leg is moved in an abnormal fashion.
*Mechanical Lameness* - literally a mechanical problem which prevents the horse from moving normally eg. a joint which has been fused (and is no longer painful) but doesn't have the same range of flexion as the opposite leg or eg. a severe conformational problem which means that the leg doesn't locomote in a normal fashion. Non-painful (and generally rarer than people think - a lot of what people claim to be 'mechanical' problems are good old-fashioned painful physical lamenesses). These won't block out or be eliminated by NSAIDs.
*Bridle Lameness* - tack/schooling issue (occasionally teeth) which means the the horse may nod when ridden and give the appearance of lameness, but there is no actual problem with the legs.
		
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Thanks for that .

P


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## Cinnamontoast (22 May 2014)

Gamebird said:



			Exactly.

So *Physical Lameness* - caused by pain coming from bone/soft tissue. Should be possible to block out with a joint or nerve block or eliminate with a sufficient quantity of pain-killer.
*Neurological Lameness* - nothing wrong with the leg per se, but there is a problem with the nerves running between the leg and the brain (either the peripheral nerves, spinal cord or brain itself) which means that the leg is moved in an abnormal fashion.
*Mechanical Lameness* - literally a mechanical problem which prevents the horse from moving normally eg. a joint which has been fused (and is no longer painful) but doesn't have the same range of flexion as the opposite leg or eg. a severe conformational problem which means that the leg doesn't locomote in a normal fashion. Non-painful (and generally rarer than people think - a lot of what people claim to be 'mechanical' problems are good old-fashioned painful physical lamenesses). These won't block out or be eliminated by NSAIDs.
*Bridle Lameness* - tack/schooling issue (occasionally teeth) which means the the horse may nod when ridden and give the appearance of lameness, but there is no actual problem with the legs.
		
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Exactly what she says ! ^^


ClobellsandBaubles said:



			That's interesting as in people I always understood the term mechanical (ie. mechanical back pain) to be something cause by poor posture/ 'conformation'/ habitual movements so it's not quite working smoothly and that is causing the problem.
		
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You're right. Poor conformation may well be to blame, something like hip dysplasia in dogs is mechanical as opposed to a 'physical' injury eg a bruise.


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## PolarSkye (22 May 2014)

cinnamontoast said:



			Exactly what she says ! ^^


You're right. Poor conformation may well be to blame, something like hip dysplasia in dogs is mechanical as opposed to a 'physical' injury eg a bruise.
		
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But, not to flog a dead horse or anything, could/would you jump a horse who was "mechanically lame?"

P


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## TarrSteps (22 May 2014)

I'll further complicate the conversation why asking why jumping is the gold standard, both in terms of what a compromised should be doing and how the horse might demonstrate its need for a quieter life.  I might argue that jumping small fences, on good footing, with sympathetic riding might be less painful/demanding than many other pursuits. Equally, for a competent horse that has generally felt positive about jumping, it's no more likely to start refusing small fences than, say, stop cantering. In fact the 'canary in the coal mine' will be different in different cases. I'd be just as worries about a horse that suddenly got difficult to get on or wanted to canter rather than trot.


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## PolarSkye (22 May 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			I'll further complicate the conversation why asking why jumping is the gold standard, both in terms of what a compromised should be doing and how the horse might demonstrate its need for a quieter life.  I might argue that jumping small fences, on good footing, with sympathetic riding might be less painful/demanding than many other pursuits. Equally, for a competent horse that has generally felt positive about jumping, it's no more likely to start refusing small fences than, say, stop cantering. In fact the 'canary in the coal mine' will be different in different cases. I'd be just as worries about a horse that suddenly got difficult to get on or wanted to canter rather than trot.
		
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Excellent point, however - would you jump a horse with known soft tissue damage (ligament/tendon)?

I wouldn't.  Not until I was convinced (by a reputable vet/scans/x-rays, etc.)  it was sound enough to do so.  And perhaps not even then - depending on the nature of the injury/other issues.

P


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## MagicMelon (22 May 2014)

I call one of my horses "mechanically lame" because the vets has looked into his lameness (as has farrier and physio) and we've tried various tests and remedial things but no cause can be found and the horse is permanently the same level of slight lameness. Bute does nothing therefore the vet says it is not pain related.  Hence IMO he is mechanically lame as he's not being lame because he's sore, if that makes sense.  I retired him from competition and managed to find him a wonderful, very loving home on permanent loan where he just gently hacks out which he loves. I think you have to know when a horse needs to change career or just retire, the one thing I definately wouldn't do is jump a lame horse and especially if its pain-related. I'd never bute to compete. You have to adapt to the horse in circumstances like this.  Have all checks been done on the horse OP?  No cause has been found?


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## MagicMelon (22 May 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			Excellent point, however - would you jump a horse with known soft tissue damage (ligament/tendon)?

I wouldn't.  Not until I was convinced (by a reputable vet/scans/x-rays, etc.)  it was sound enough to do so.  And perhaps not even then - depending on the nature of the injury/other issues.

P
		
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Have to add to this - I totally agree (is this the case with OP's horse?). One of my other horses seriously damaged his DDFT 2 years ago, amazingly (touch wood) he is now sound and I'm planning to start very low level dressage with him soon but I will never ever jump him again, not even a cross pole even though he adored eventing / show jumping previously because it is absolutely not worth the risk.  He does his tendon again and that'll be the end of him!  Tendons are always weakened badly after being damaged hence I think anyone would be very brave to jump their horses again...


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## el_Snowflakes (22 May 2014)

I'm really not sure what's been said in the past or what the issues have been with the horse so I won't comment in regards to that. OP I would follow your vets advice, however even if my vet told me to jump my lame horse I would not. horses WILL still jump/gallop etc if in pain which is what makes understanding/spotting their pain so difficult at times! Can you not hack him to keep him working if you ever believes that it might be worked through? He looks a beautiful horse, I hope he comes right for you.

ETA: if your desperate to jump, can you not take on another horse to compete to take the pressure off jumping/riding this one? (Even a loan or friends horse)


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## Leo Walker (22 May 2014)

I'm mechanically lame. I fractured my spine 18 months ago and there has been bony growths between the joints injured. It doesnt hurt, I just lack mobility and, mainly when I get out of bed, I'm very stiff. It didnt and wouldnt cause me any problems with running and jumping. What has absolutely crippled me is the soft tissue damage  And that didnt show up properly for more than 12 months after the initial injury. I have good days and bad days. On a good day I am fine, on a bad day I can barely stand or walk more than 10yds. On a bad day if I had to adrenaline would let me appear to be normal. Ie my dog cut his paw pretty badly and I carried him half a mile. I couldnt walk for a week afterwards, but anyone seeing me carry a 17kg dog at a fast walk/slow run would have thought there was nothing wrong!

I work very, very hard at being fully functioning, and that involves lots of gym work and lots of expensive osteo work. None of that will ever make me be able to stand up to the level of work needed to compete. And the soft tissue damage would probably be ok if I hadnt been a total prat and gone back to "normal". 

But I just wanted to point out that mechanical lameness doesnt have to cause pain! Mine genuinely doesnt hurt! Morphine doesnt touch it never mind ibuprofen which is probably the equivalent of bute. Morphine does stop the soft tissue pain, and at decent levels, combined with adrenaline would make me sound soft tissue pain wise. But it wouldnt last, and the compensation required for that would probably screw the mechanical lameness! 

But for anyone with a field/light work sound horse that seems ok but is mechanically lame, they probably are! Just dont take them out competing or hunting etc and let them run themselves into the ground


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## 9tails (23 May 2014)

Interesting thread.  I'd be surprised if the vet advised full work and competition jumping on a horse lame without bute.  Sure, the vet may have said to keep him in work, but I suspect he'd think the owner would have the sense to keep it light.  

I remember spraining my ankle really badly once, unable to put weight on it at all.  After being prescribed monster strong painkillers, I was up and about with no pain whatsoever.  I properly effed up my ankle and was out for a lot longer than if I'd rested.


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## PapaFrita (23 May 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			But, not to flog a dead horse or anything, could/would you jump a horse who was "mechanically lame?"

P
		
Click to expand...

PF broke her pelvis when she was a yearling and had wonky hips. For this reason she didn't look quite right on one rein, but was sound and jumped etc, with no probs


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## wench (23 May 2014)

I've had a horse with wonky hips and a damaged hoof.... didnt bother her in the slightest. Granted she needed more work on one rein than the other to keep her "even", but apart from that she was normal.


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