# Kauto doing dressage



## Daffodil (11 December 2012)

http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news/article/465/8322547/dressage-plan-for-kauto-star

Even if he's only there for a month to see how he gets on, can you imagine a more wonderful Christmas present than to have Kauto in your yard!!!   I would be beside myself 

Lucky girl


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## Elbie (11 December 2012)

Saw him parading at Sandown this Saturday. He was very excited - don't think he's been told he's not a racehorse anymore!


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## ivandenisovich10 (11 December 2012)

I saw him at sanddown too, still looks amazing! Poor old boy must have wondered what an earth was going on, parading then back to the stable, when they took him back out he tried to pull to go down to the racecourse, don't think he realises he's retired


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## Elf On A Shelf (11 December 2012)

Dressage will be the best thing for him. He is fairly highly strung and a big thinker so he will be need to be kept occupied at all times. I can't think of anyone better to send him to than Laura Collett - he will get a good all round education and be kept amused during his transition. 

I think half of Kauto's problem at the moment is that he is being kept half fit for his racecourse parades and not really getting to let himself down and he just doesn't quite know what to do with himself.

I wish him all the very best in his new career and I hope he can keep the lid on when he walks down the centre line!


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## humblepie (11 December 2012)

Laura C's yard is very near where I work so will keep an eye out for KS!

Good luck to them both.


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## KautoStar1 (11 December 2012)

Apparently, according to the Racing Post, Kauto is leaving PN yard today and not after Boxing Day, as planned.

At this stage not sure where he is going, whether its to Lauras yard or somewhere else, but I wonder why !!
Ive thought for some time that relations between Nicholls and Smith were strained in relation to what the horse should do and where he should live.  Its clear Nicholls wants him to stay at Ditcheat.

And this has also just appeared.

Donna Blake &#8207;(@DonnaBlake75), longtime travelling head girl to Paul Nicholls, tweeted: "Farewell to our dear Kauto Star, sad day that he is leaving those who genuinely care and respect him. Undeserved."


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## 9tails (11 December 2012)

Blimey!  That's a bit harsh from Donna Blake.  I would imagine that wherever he goes isn't going to be staffed by numpties.


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## Daffodil (11 December 2012)

No idea what's been going on but there's a lot of emotional tweets and messages appearing on the internet.

I do hope this isn't going to turn nasty.   The horse had to have something to do and this outcome just seemed ideal.   I'd hoped it was with everyone's agreement but apparently not.


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## MadisonBelle (11 December 2012)

KautoStar1 said:



			Apparently, according to the Racing Post, Kauto is leaving PN yard today and not after Boxing Day, as planned.

At this stage not sure where he is going, whether it&#8217;s to Laura&#8217;s yard or somewhere else, but I wonder why !!
I&#8217;ve thought for some time that relations between Nicholls and Smith were strained in relation to what the horse should do and where he should live.  Its clear Nicholls wants him to stay at Ditcheat.

And this has also just appeared.

&#8220;Donna Blake &#8207;(@DonnaBlake75), longtime travelling head girl to Paul Nicholls, tweeted: "Farewell to our dear Kauto Star, sad day that he is leaving those who genuinely care and respect him. Undeserved."
		
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That doesn't sound good....... 

Lucky Laura tho!! It says a crash course for a month sp wonder where he'll go after that?


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## Daffodil (11 December 2012)

Purely selfishly, I hope he's still going to Kempton on Boxing Day.   I've booked tickets specially and its a long way to go if he's not going to be there.


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## Clarew22 (11 December 2012)

I thought watching the Morning Line a few weeks ago things seemed a little tense between PN and CS both had completely different ideas about what retirement was planned for KS.

Will be facinating to see how he gets on with Laura Collett 

I would think he will still parade at Kempton, can't see him moving homes would change anything.


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## Daffodil (11 December 2012)

Hope not, although today's developments show anything can happen.


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## Elf On A Shelf (11 December 2012)

Ah! It looks as though everyone at Ditcheat thought that Kauto was going to live out his retirement there and not go on and do another job! 

Why keep a horse on a yard, half fit, knowing what it should be doing but getting frustrated as he's not doing full work. He has a brain, why not use it? He may quite like dressage!


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## Daffodil (11 December 2012)

Rather looks as if this is the case, EKW.


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## silvershadow81 (11 December 2012)

Update: http://betting.betfair.com/horse-ra...-kauto-leaves-for-the-last-time-111212-9.html


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## Elf On A Shelf (11 December 2012)

To me it looks as though toys are getting thrown out of prams now! Ditcheat didn't get what they wanted and are making a point of showing it.


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## amage (11 December 2012)

I think it's a little sad that after everything Team Ditcheat have done with and for Kauto that it has ended this way. I don't doubt that he will have a superb home with Laura but still he has been in Ditcheat for so long and is much loved and cherished. It's a little sad that having worked with eachother to do the best thing for the horse whe he was racing that nicholls & smith now disagree over the most important decision. I wod have expected him to stay where he was loved in the care of the Bakers at Ditcheat. There's no reason why he couldn't have had a new career from there.


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## Clarew22 (11 December 2012)

PN said in an interview that KS was not like Denman and NC and would not be able to do another job, so I guess there was no middle ground if CS wanted him to do another job.   Its a shame it couldn't be arranged for him to try it but still have the choice of going back to Ditcheat if he didn't take to being a dressage star


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## Potato! (11 December 2012)

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Sport/National-Sport/Kauto-leaves-Nicholls-yard-2-3299864.xnf


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## oldvic (11 December 2012)

I believe that Clive Smith went to RoR and they put him on to Yogi. Paul Nicholls doesn't appear to have been part of this negotiation. A second career may or may not be in his best interest. After the injuries he's had and given that he needs managing, being asked to use himself in a completely different way to how he ever has before when he is into middle age is not necessarily what his body will appreciate.
Also a rider that is good enough for him will be ambitious and have commitments at a high level so a horse like KS will have to take a back seat a lot of the time. I think I need convincing that it is the right thing to do.


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## Clodagh (11 December 2012)

What a twit PN is being, once again letting his ego run the situation. I assume CS doesn't have anything in training at the moment? I hope he buys another superstar and sends it to Nicky Henderson!
Neptune Collonges seems to have made a successful transition and I don't see why KS can't, as long as he is bought on slowly. He needs to be out in the limelight, not pottering round a field in his pipe and slippers.
Go Kauto!


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## Clarew22 (11 December 2012)

I'm kind of torn, I would love to see him doing something else but at the end of the day PN and his team know the horse best so if they have doubts he will cope then it does raise questions.  I hope bridges haven't been burnt and he could go back to Ditcheat if things go wrong


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## Kaylum (11 December 2012)

I think it's fantastic news a change is as good as a rest.  looks like a massive fall out, hope it doesn't get too nasty as its already looks unprofessional posting on twitter, either side shouldn't do that whatever the ins and outs.


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## Dobiegirl (11 December 2012)

I think the fact that Clive Smith didnt include PN and his team into the options for KS is why they are feeling upset at Ditcheat. I happen to think CS has been incredibley rude and ungrateful to not even consult them, it is sheer bad manners. I know KS belongs to CS but he has been on that yard for so long and they know him so well and after the way CS was treated by Martin  Pipe I would have hoped that loyalty would have come into the equation.

For what its worth if he was my horse I would have given him to Clifford and allowed him to stay at the yard and to lead out the horses for work.

I hope he settles well in his new home and goes on to do other things and he continues to enjoy his life.


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## {97702} (11 December 2012)

Clodagh said:



			What a twit PN is being, once again letting his ego run the situation. I assume CS doesn't have anything in training at the moment? I hope he buys another superstar and sends it to Nicky Henderson!
Neptune Collonges seems to have made a successful transition and I don't see why KS can't, as long as he is bought on slowly. He needs to be out in the limelight, not pottering round a field in his pipe and slippers.
Go Kauto!
		
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I dont understand the comparison - obviously I dont know the horses involved other than seeing them in the media, but by all accounts Neptune Collonges has a very different temperament and outlook to Kauto Star?  if it was as easy as saying 'he can make the transition given time' then surely all ex-racehorses would have successful second career?


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## oldvic (11 December 2012)

Have we heard Martin Pipe's reason for treating him like that or just Clive Smith's?! Maybe there was more to it. It will be interesting to hear him talk of PN in the future.


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## bubbilygum (11 December 2012)

Clodagh said:



			What a twit PN is being, once again letting his ego run the situation. I assume CS doesn't have anything in training at the moment? I hope he buys another superstar and sends it to Nicky Henderson!
Neptune Collonges seems to have made a successful transition and I don't see why KS can't, as long as he is bought on slowly. He needs to be out in the limelight, not pottering round a field in his pipe and slippers.
Go Kauto!
		
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CS has Master Minded but he's still recovering after his fall in the King George lat year and doesn't look likely he will race again. CS also has another horse in training in Ireland with Arthur Moore.

I sympathise with Team Ditcheat but its not like KS is being sent to plough fields... He's going to a great home to have a second career. There's plenty of life in the old dog yet..!


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## HardySoul1 (11 December 2012)

Clive smith has always struck me as a calm, intelligent, sensible and considerate man. Paul Nicholls is undoubtedly a v capable trainer but does not share many of those adjectives!! Anyone who has read his autobiography or seen him interviewed know how much he likes to make all the decisions and take credit for them, even when thanking his team. I suspect he would not negotiate with CS if he disagreed with the basic plan so CS had to leave him out of discussions. Paul does not own the horse and I'm confident CS has nothing but Kauto's best interests at heart. Pauls comments on betfair suggest he has forced the issue himself this week and told CS to take the horse now. Upsetting his own team in the process while blaming someone else...


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## Nicnac (11 December 2012)

I really think Laura and Yogi can give this wonderful horse a chance to do something else.  He's proved himself enough on the racetrack and if as intelligent and highly strung as has been said (and seen) then living out his retirement at a racing yard may just wind him up.

If he doesn't take to his new job then I believe that CS will look at alternatives whatever they may be.

Good luck Laura! 

(the BBC website mentions KS' new career in eventing too )


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## TeamChaser (11 December 2012)

Completely agree with Dobiegirl on this one


Just because CS can name a handful (well 3!) other ex racehorses that have been moderately succesful at a second career in dressage, doesn't automatically follow that Kauto will! It's a naieve assumption IMHO. He's a fantastic, quality animal for sure but whether that will translate to a natural affinity to dressage or whether he'll have the temprement for it (and I think that will be the real question) who knows? I can totally understand the feeling at Manor Farm - pretty ungrateful not to consult or consider the opinions of those that know the horse best. Not all ex racehorses do well out of training, some thrive on the routine and work and I think this is where PN and team are coming from. And if he'd stayed at Ditcheat, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been chucked in a field - come on people, have some sense 

Lets face it Clive Smith is a very wealthy man with an excellent bloodstock agent in Anthony Bromley who got lucky with a really special horse. Paul Nicholls and his team are the ones that have produced Kauto to the heights he's achieved and kept him sound and loving his racing for all these years. You also can't doubt the fondness that the team there have for him. I know who's opinion I'd be listening to ....


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## justabob (11 December 2012)

As much as I respect Paul Nicholls as a trainer, who wouldnt, I do find that he comes across as arrogant and lacking in humility. I have no idea what is best for Kauto Star as I have not been involved with him other than seeing him on the racecourse. What does strike me however is this is a very unpleasant falling out between an owner and trainer that has become public knowledge and has soured for me a wonderful partnership between the trainer, owner and KS. I can not imagine this scenario ever happening at the yard of Nicky Henderson........the gentleman. Whatever the outcome I wish KS the most successful new career.


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## Double_choc_lab (11 December 2012)

It does make me laugh when Clive Smith says that others such as Neptune have made a successful transition into dressage  FGS he's won an unaffiliated walk and trot test - WOW.


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## TeamChaser (11 December 2012)

You make a couple of interesting points justabob


You're quite right, none have us have been personally involved with the horse. Paul Nicholls and his team have looked after him for 8 years though

I'm sure feelings are running high as Kauto Star is obviosuly very special to a lot of people. Tweeted an hour ago by PN 

"Lots of reaction re K Star but i am very happy that he is going to a great home to be looked after by top people. He will be fine."


And if you think this doesn't happen at other yards, you've not been around racing!! Trainers and owners will always disagree but we're talking about a horse of legendary status and we live in a digital age - hence this falling out is a little public!


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## Luci07 (11 December 2012)

No axes to grind for either owner or ex trainer but really don't see why KS should not have a crack at another career. No one is expecting him to be at Rio ridden by Carl Hester but equally, good training and he should be able to step up the grades. Proper training will also help the horse from a gymnastic perspective as well. Think the slight pop and suggestion that either Laura Collett or Yogi Bresner would not do the best for the horse is unfair as well. KS is a well loved horse. The public will be keen to see what he does next. I for one, was more interested as why he is going down the dressage route and not say, teamchasing and hunting like Denman. And if CS really felt KS was a good dressage prospect, I would suggest he would have sent the horse to a dressage and not eventing person.

So, good luck with KS. I look forward to seeing how he goes in his new career.


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## justabob (11 December 2012)

Double_choc_lab said:



			It does make me laugh when Clive Smith says that others such as Neptune have made a successful transition into dressage  FGS he's won an unaffiliated walk and trot test - WOW.
		
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Crikey! they all have to start from the beginning. How mean spirited of you.


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## Elf On A Shelf (11 December 2012)

What I don't get is why everyone has a go about racehorses not getting a second chance at a career and end up shunted from pillar to post because their racing owner only cares about winning and then one is sent by his owner to a top class yard, top class rider, world class trainer and everyone is up in arms saying that he should never have left the racing yard! Twitter has gone wild and I do agree that some of the things that have been said by Niccols and his staff on their really should have been kept private.

Either which way the horse is getting a well deserved second chance in the best possible way.


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## paddi22 (11 December 2012)

As an owner of an exracer who was neither successful nor had a long career like Kauto Star, I would consider a win in a walk and trot dressage test as an amazing thing and a successful transition!

My exracer had an automatic adrenaline response to being around groups of horses, had no idea what his feet were doing, couldn't bend, couldn't concentrate. I would definitely consider it a success to go in and do a quiet, obedient test in a completely different field to what he was trained in. If I even got around any test without a nap, spook or messing I'd be happy!


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## AmeliaVDW (11 December 2012)

Haven't read the whole thread but I thought Kauto Star with Laura Collett?


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## justabob (11 December 2012)

paddi22 said:



			As an owner of an exracer who was neither successful nor had a long career like Kauto Star, I would consider a win in a walk and trot dressage test as an amazing thing and a successful transition!

My exracer had an automatic adrenaline response to being around groups of horses, had no idea what his feet were doing, couldn't bend, couldn't concentrate. I would definitely consider it a success to go in and do a quiet, obedient test in a completely different field to what he was trained in. If I even got around any test without a nap, spook or messing I'd be happy!
		
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Exactly paddi. Even more so when they have been racing 8 or 9 years, the transition to cope with another discipline is a huge achievement, be it a walk and trot. Mine retired at 12 and has his mind set on staying a racehorse!!


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## Goldenstar (11 December 2012)

Double_choc_lab said:



			It does make me laugh when Clive Smith says that others such as Neptune have made a successful transition into dressage  FGS he's won an unaffiliated walk and trot test - WOW.
		
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So what if the horse is cared for and happy and relaxed with life who cares if it's at a low level .
At least they have an owner enaged with providing them with a comfortable and happy second life.
I don't think it's a given that not racing and living on a training yard is necessarily the best retirement option for any horse even if it's the yard he's knows .
KS has not exactly been advertised FOC to any numpty who wants him I think YB and LC can more than manage to handle this.


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## KautoStar1 (11 December 2012)

Dangerous thing is Twitter. Things typed in the heat of the moment. No doubt Team Dicheat are feeling raw & sensitive but sometimes saying nothing is the best policy & in this instance a little reflection time would have been most appropriate. Because its certain now that Kauto will never return to Dicheat soon or in the distant future when real retirement beckons and I find that the saddest thing.   Whether he's right for dressage or any other non-racing career only time will tell but give Clive Smith credit for at least seeking out advice from one of the very best in the business.  I wish the old warrior well & look forward to hearing how he goes.


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## Goldenstar (11 December 2012)

I agree KS1 but this amazing horse has humans and resources to provide for him there are others who need our worry more.


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## Fantasy_World (11 December 2012)

Dreadful decision. Kauto Star owes nobody anything least of all his owner!
Is he seeking yet more accolades for himself?
Kauto should have stayed at Nicholls's yard with the people that love him and know him best of all!
He would have had a job to do there and retirement could have happened gradually even if he was not racing on the track.
He is one of the best chasers we have seen for a few years and he should have been treated as such!


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## Goldenstar (11 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Dreadful decision. Kauto Star owes nobody anything least of all his owner!
Is he seeking yet more accolades for himself?
Kauto should have stayed at Nicholls's yard with the people that love him and know him best of all!
He would have had a job to do there and retirement could have happened gradually even if he was not racing on the track.
He is one of the best chasers we have seen for a few years and he should have been treated as such!
		
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How on earth has he been badly treated ?


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## Double_choc_lab (11 December 2012)

justabob said:



			Crikey! they all have to start from the beginning. How mean spirited of you. 

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I wish Neptunes all the best - he was a favourite of mine having seen him win first time for PN.  I was stating that Clive Smith seemed to be talking about a new "career" and was really emphasising dressage and there is a whole world of dressage between walk and trot and high class BD.  I wouldn't image Laura Collett would start out at the lowly levels in which some of us mere mortals compete.  I just think that Clive Smith was somewhat over emphasising the level that Neptune had reached.


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## christine48 (11 December 2012)

Maybe they are considering an eventing career for him. I'm sure he'll receive the best of care in Laura' s yard.


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## Goldenstar (11 December 2012)

christine48 said:



			Maybe they are considering an eventing career for him. I'm sure he'll receive the best of care in Laura' s yard.
		
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I think it's much more likely that they have just sent him to some very experianced people who can assess how the horse will take to a different type of work with an amazing trainer and rider he's not at at lot of risk is he.
This all very sad, professional stable staff taking to twitter and the like , not good ,undignified.


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## Lolo (11 December 2012)

Isn't Yogi setting up as a retrainer of racehorses, as an aside? He surely wouldn't rush this decision, knowing if it goes tits up there'll be a lot of people saying "I told you so"...

In terms of injuries, our ex-racer came out of racing with some pretty serious problems. He's fit and healthy and eventing at BE100, looking to move up to Novice now. He's 12, and absolutely loves his new career. I think the idea that KS has done one job and now he can't do another is a bit short-sighted really... He's not exactly old, and I think he might enjoy the attention. He seems a bit similar in temperament to Reg, who is thriving on his second career.


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## justabob (11 December 2012)

Double_choc_lab said:



			I wish Neptunes all the best - he was a favourite of mine having seen him win first time for PN.  I was stating that Clive Smith seemed to be talking about a new "career" and was really emphasising dressage and there is a whole world of dressage between walk and trot and high class BD.  I wouldn't image Laura Collett would start out at the lowly levels in which some of us mere mortals compete.  I just think that Clive Smith was somewhat over emphasising the level that Neptune had reached.
		
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Sorry Double_choc_lab. My reply was harsh. These ex-racehorses are never going to be Grand Prix horses, they have had their career and anything else is a bonus. Perhaps Clive Smith does not know much about dressage.


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## Goldenstar (11 December 2012)

justabob said:



			Sorry Double_choc_lab. My reply was harsh. These ex-racehorses are never going to be Grand Prix horses, they have had their career and anything else is a bonus. Perhaps Clive Smith does not know much about dressage. 

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Has anyone said that he's aimed at GP ?
No .


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## kirstyl (11 December 2012)

I look forward to hearing about Kauto's retraining. I don't think it will be helped if he has to make appearances at Sandown, Kempton etc! My ex racer at 10 is starting to become more acclimatised to the world of dressage but think he could revert quickly if I returned him to the racetrack!


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## justabob (11 December 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Has anyone said that he's aimed at GP ?
No .
		
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No, and neither was I. Are you queen of this forum?


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## Goldenstar (11 December 2012)

justabob said:



			No, and neither was I. Are you queen of this forum?
		
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What on earth does that comment mean if KS's owner or the owner of any horse what's them to be retrained to to do any job that their buisness I can't think of anyone in world more suited to oversee this than YB 
I can comment on any post I like if you have a problem with it that your problem not mine.


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## Quatrefoil (12 December 2012)

The Nicholls yard have kept the horse sound and healthy for 8 seasons which speaks volumes for their general horse management.  They know what they are talking about with the horse and only have his best interests at heart and I fear for him now.


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## Lolo (12 December 2012)

Quatrefoil said:



			The Nicholls yard have kept the horse sound and healthy for 8 seasons which speaks volumes for their general horse management.  They know what they are talking about with the horse and only have his best interests at heart and I fear for him now.
		
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You fear for a horse who is at one of the topyards, under expert supervision from top trainers who understand both eventing/ dressage and racing (as I understand she has regular lessons with him) with one of the UKs best riders?

Blimey.


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 December 2012)

I can't believe that someone fears for Kauto when he has gone to a highly professional yard with a world class trainer! Would you rather he got bumped on to some random? Or go Point To Pointing with some random amature jockey? Or stand around in a field bored out of his skull?

There will be so much pressure on Laura and Yogi because Kauto isn't just any old exracer and they will be minutely scrutinized so they will be going OTT in his care I expect!


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## Marydoll (12 December 2012)

Quatrefoil said:



			The Nicholls yard have kept the horse sound and healthy for 8 seasons which speaks volumes for their general horse management.  They know what they are talking about with the horse and only have his best interests at heart and I fear for him now.
		
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Yes the Nicholls yard have did an excellent job keeping him sound and fit, that was what they were comissioned to do in his racing career, but IMO looking at him,he is a horse who neeeds a less stressful job now, and i think it would be wrong to deny a horse who obviously needs a job, the chance of another career, albeit at a much lower level
To assume no other experienced team of skilled professionals can work with this horse is very blinkered and to imply the owners dont also have his best interests at heart is wrong.


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## Luci07 (12 December 2012)

marychristmas said:



			Yes the Nicholls yard have did an excellent job keeping him sound and fit, that was what they were comissioned to do in his racing career, but IMO looking at him,he is a horse who neeeds a less stressful job now, and i think it would be wrong to deny a horse who obviously needs a job, the chance of another career, albeit at a much lower level
To assume no other experienced team of skilled professionals can work with this horse is very blinkered and to imply the owners dont also have his best interests at heart is wrong.
		
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Agree agree agree!. At 11 he still has a long life ahead of him and why not see what else he can turn his hooves to?  Actually think Laura Collett is coming quite well out of this as she has not been seen to be involved in any of the spats going on.  And actually as a top class eventer, is an excellent person to assess and retrain a top class racehorse.


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## Maisie2 (12 December 2012)

marychristmas said:



			Yes the Nicholls yard have did an excellent job keeping him sound and fit, that was what they were comissioned to do in his racing career, but IMO looking at him,he is a horse who neeeds a less stressful job now, and i think it would be wrong to deny a horse who obviously needs a job, the chance of another career, albeit at a much lower level
To assume no other experienced team of skilled professionals can work with this horse is very blinkered and to imply the owners dont also have his best interests at heart is wrong.
		
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I absolutely agree    I also think that yet again 'twittering' is doing no one any favours   I am really looking forward to reading of his progress.


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## Goldenstar (12 December 2012)

Twitter is dangerous.


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## Lolo (12 December 2012)

Tweets appear to have gone...

On a different note, I wish all horses coming out of racing were treated with a similar level of concern as KS. Whilst he is a legend who only deserves the best I feel that all horses only deserve what is best for them, especially after the service they give whilst in racing. 

I mean, the attitude on here is that of 'Oh, ex-racers, you can get them for £400. Injured? Even less. Not worth the time or money', etc. Maybe this will do something in helping people realise that ex-racers are truly fantastic horses who are not past it when they leave racing. If that is the case, and KS gets to shine at a new career as well, it's win win all round, surely? (maybe we'll see him at Burghley in the RoR class... How amazing would that be?! Although everyone else would probably pack up and go home once they saw him!)


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## Goldenstar (12 December 2012)

Lolo said:



			Tweets appear to have gone...

On a different note, I wish all horses coming out of racing were treated with a similar level of concern as KS. Whilst he is a legend who only deserves the best I feel that all horses only deserve what is best for them, especially after the service they give whilst in racing. 

I mean, the attitude on here is that of 'Oh, ex-racers, you can get them for £400. Injured? Even less. Not worth the time or money', etc. Maybe this will do something in helping people realise that ex-racers are truly fantastic horses who are not past it when they leave racing. If that is the case, and KS gets to shine at a new career as well, it's win win all round, surely? (maybe we'll see him at Burghley in the RoR class... How amazing would that be?! Although everyone else would probably pack up and go home once they saw him!)
		
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Well mine cost considerably more than £400 and I still consider him a cheap horse certainly cheaper than a young WB with comparable movement.


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## hcm88 (12 December 2012)

Quatrefoil said:



			The Nicholls yard have kept the horse sound and healthy for 8 seasons which speaks volumes for their general horse management.  They know what they are talking about with the horse and only have his best interests at heart and I fear for him now.
		
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He's gone to Laura Collett's yard, not the meat man! I'm sure this was not a rash decision by any party and it is only a trial after all. 

The way some people (who have nothing to do with the horse) on Twitter are reacting you'd have thought he'd died!


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## Caledonia (12 December 2012)

oldvic said:



			I believe that Clive Smith went to RoR and they put him on to Yogi. Paul Nicholls doesn't appear to have been part of this negotiation. A second career may or may not be in his best interest. After the injuries he's had and given that he needs managing, being asked to use himself in a completely different way to how he ever has before when he is into middle age is not necessarily what his body will appreciate.
Also a rider that is good enough for him will be ambitious and have commitments at a high level so a horse like KS will have to take a back seat a lot of the time. I think I need convincing that it is the right thing to do.
		
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This - he will no longer be a King, but just another horse. Who is going to ride him when she's busy with her other horses? And what happens when the novelty wears off and she wants the box for an event horse for the day job?


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## Lolo (12 December 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Well mine cost considerably more than £400 and I still consider him a cheap horse certainly cheaper than a young WB with comparable movement.
		
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I know, and if anyone offered £400 for any of ours they'd be laughed out of the  yard. But it's the general attitude on here and in real life it seems- I can't count the posts I've seen to this effect. Maybe this will help people reconsider their attitude?


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## Fantasy_World (12 December 2012)

I have nothing against Laura and neither do I disrespect dressage.
What I do disrepect is Smith's attitude towards his horse and the staff at Ditcheat.
If Kauto deserved to end his days anywhere it should have been at the Nicholls's yard.
Oh I hear you cry, he is only 12. 
Yes he maybe 12 but for a racehorse he has achieved one hell of a lot.
He would have had a job at the yard and something to keep his mind and body active.
He would have been among friends, both equine and human. 
Now he has been taken away from all that to be drilled into dressage.
What else does he have to prove?
He is not your typical ex racer who did not take to racing and thereby would be saved from the meat man by becoming a hack, showjumper, eventer or dressage.
He is Kauto Star a legend of the turf.
A legend of the jumps.
Who is now going to be prancing around some arena performing equine ballet.
He was bred to race, he was bred to jump. 
He was bred to be a racehorse. 
He is a National Hunt icon who has been reduced to this.
I hang my head in shame and dismay if this is how we treat our legends


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## Caledonia (12 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			I have nothing against Laura and neither do I disrespect dressage.
What I do disrepect is Smith's attitude towards his horse and the staff at Ditcheat.
If Kauto deserved to end his days anywhere it should have been at the Nicholls's yard.
Oh I hear you cry, he is only 12. 
Yes he maybe 12 but for a racehorse he has achieved one hell of a lot.
He would have had a job at the yard and something to keep his mind and body active.
He would have been among friends, both equine and human. 
Now he has been taken away from all that to be drilled into dressage.
What else does he have to prove?
He is not your typical ex racer who did not take to racing and thereby would be saved from the meat man by becoming a hack, showjumper, eventer or dressage.
He is Kauto Star a legend of the turf.
A legend of the jumps.
Who is now going to be prancing around some arena performing equine ballet.
He was bred to race, he was bred to jump. 
He was bred to be a racehorse. 
He is a National Hunt icon who has been reduced to this.
I hang my head in shame and dismay if this is how we treat our legends 

Click to expand...

Brilliantly put. I couldn't agree more.


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## Fantasy_World (12 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			This - he will no longer be a King, but just another horse. Who is going to ride him when she's busy with her other horses? And what happens when the novelty wears off and she wants the box for an event horse for the day job?
		
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Exactly! He should have stayed at Ditcheat where he would have been loved and worshipped for many years to come.
He would never have been forgotten. 
He is a legend, a legend now reduced to becoming a dressage novelty.
I could cry


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## Daffodil (12 December 2012)

Are some of these hysterical comments coming from real people ?


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## Goldenstar (12 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			This - he will no longer be a King, but just another horse. Who is going to ride him when she's busy with her other horses? And what happens when the novelty wears off and she wants the box for an event horse for the day job?
		
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I'll be amazed if he stays with LC I expect in time to hear that like Denham he's in a very special private home.


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## Goldenstar (12 December 2012)

Daffodil said:



			Are some of these hysterical comments coming from real people ?
		
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Worryingly yes.

The nicest picture I have seen for ages was the one of Denham surrounded by ponies on a hunt ride that was just lovely.


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## Fantasy_World (12 December 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I'll be amazed if he stays with LC I expect in time to hear that like Denham he's in a very special private home.
		
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Oh so Smith could not afford to care for Kauto with his 2.5 million or so in prizemoney.
A racehorse = a commodity
Kauto Star = publicity and a cash cow


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## Fantasy_World (12 December 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Worryingly yes.

The nicest picture I have seen for ages was the one of Denham surrounded by ponies on a hunt ride that was just lovely.
		
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Why worry love, we are real people with real horses and in some cases own ex racers!
Racing fans and horse lovers as well.

Ah but Denman you see. He did not achieve quite so much fame as Kauto.
He was a lovely horse I admit but in terms of class Kauto and him were miles apart.
However this is the big difference....... now wait for it.

Denman = steeplechaser = gallops + jumps
Denman = eventer/hunter = gallops + jumps


Kauto Star = steeplechaser = gallops + jumps
Kauto Star = dressage horse = .......... + .......... 

I will leave you to fill in the blanks but I bet it won't match a steeplechaser


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## MissTyc (12 December 2012)

Daffodil said:



			Are some of these hysterical comments coming from real people ?
		
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That made me LOL. 

So true ... I never realised Dressage was the lowest form of subdued, beaten, end of the road riding. 

A horse should not have to be a King. Kings fall, kings fail. If he is allowed to be "just another" horse, then he could have another 10 years on the circuit. Another lifetime, with less stardom but no less appreciation and importantly, no less care ...


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## paddi22 (12 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Yes he maybe 12 but for a racehorse he has achieved one hell of a lot.
He would have had a job at the yard and something to keep his mind and body active.
Now he has been taken away from all that to be drilled into dressage.
What else does he have to prove?
He is Kauto Star a legend of the turf.
A legend of the jumps.
Who is now going to be prancing around some arena performing equine ballet.
He was bred to race, he was bred to jump. 
He was bred to be a racehorse. 
He is a National Hunt icon who has been reduced to this.
I hang my head in shame and dismay if this is how we treat our legends 

Click to expand...

Do you not think that's a bit over the top?

i'd imagine starting off at dressage at a low level where he being made more supple and balanced, getting a stronger back/topline and using himself properly while being kept mentally stimulated learning something new- this would benefit him more physically and keep him in better condition than being retired in a field at 12 surely? It would probably keep him healthy and in better condition as he got older.

He is a legend of the track, but his high level days are over and it's a lot of wear and tear on a horse to keep him racing fit. There is no shame in seeing him do a slower paced discipline if it suits him now. My exracer loves schooling and learning new dressage moves at home, some of them are clever and actually enjoy it.

Plus it's not just prancing around an arena. It's a great base for learning correct balance, turns, collecting, proper rhythm, getting your hocks collected under you for jumping etc if he moves into eventing and jumping.


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## Goldenstar (12 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Oh so Smith could not afford to care for Kauto with his 2.5 million or so in prizemoney.
A racehorse = a commodity
Kauto Star = publicity and a cash cow
		
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Of course he can afford to care for the horse you don't suppose YB one of best half dozen trainers in the world is a cheap way of assessing and starting KS off in his next life do your that getting LC to ride your horse is bargin basement stuff.
Who are you to say that a private home can't be a marvellous home with amazing care and attention .
any one would think KS was being sold at Ascot without warranty .
Instead he with one the of the world greatest trainers to be ridden through this period by one of the country's best riders.


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## Goldenstar (12 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Why worry love, we are real people with real horses and in some cases own ex racers!
Racing fans and horse lovers as well.

Ah but Denman you see. He did not achieve quite so much fame as Kauto.
He was a lovely horse I admit but in terms of class Kauto and him were miles apart.
However this is the big difference....... now wait for it.

Denman = steeplechaser = gallops + jumps
Denman = eventer/hunter = gallops + jumps


Kauto Star = steeplechaser = gallops + jumps
Kauto Star = dressage horse = .......... + .......... 

I will leave you to fill in the blanks but I bet it won't match a steeplechaser 

Click to expand...

I am not your love.
Dressage is just training there could be any number of good reasons that KS is not heading for a future jumping .
Or in time he may ,KS is a horse as was Denham I find this hysteria baffling .


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## Potato! (12 December 2012)

I was under the impression that he was going to learn dressage initially then to look at a second career in Eventing but they wanted to see how he did at Dressage first. I would have thought if he was going to  be a pure dressage horse then he would have gone to a dressage rider and not an eventer.


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## Skibut (12 December 2012)

I&#8217;m new to this forum (have lurked for a while!) but just have to post on this as I honestly cannot understand what all the fuss is about.  Whatever about the apparent fallout between Nicholls and Smith, one thing you can be guaranteed is that KS will not suffer one bit, whatever way it turns out.  Collett and Breisner are such experienced professionals with reputations to uphold, it will be in neither of their best interests to showcase/compete KS in a discipline that he is not suited to and these people will be the best/most knowledgeable to find this out, without ruining the horse in the process. 

No-one can say what an ex-racehorse will/will not enjoy until you have asked them and I do say this from experience.  Of the 7 horses I have, currently 3 are ex-racehorses and I turn down about 6 every year for the past 3 or 4 years (I rehome & retrain them for free so need a full-time job to support this). My best one I got when he was 11, had raced until he was 10, is a Grade 1 winner, won over 100k, ran into the prize-money at Cheltenham&#8230;he was also broken down and was bound for the meat man. It took a while to get to grips with him but together we have competed at Novice level eventing at (him as a 16yo), competed at CCI1* at 16yo & 17yo & would have done so this year as an 18yo if he hadn&#8217;t badly fractured a jaw last year, after a kick from a new stable mate (another ex-racehorse) who jumped out of his field.  He&#8217;s also qualified for the 2013 Royal Windsor horse show in the retrained racehorse challenge and has done loads of other stuff. He will be 19 next year and I am fairly certain that by being kept so active and his brain engaged over the years, it has been a big factor in keeping him young and healthy. The other one is a work in progress and should be competing Novice this year and the 3rd will start back into work in 2013 after a break and having a foal this year. 

I can guarantee you, while not a numpty rider, I am nowhere near the level of Laura or the team she has behind her (and am fully aware that my good horse would have gone a lot further with a better rider) but I have been around enough of them to see that a lot of them can be successfully reschooled&#8230;you just need to figure out as what.  Having been ridiculed when I got my first one 13 years ago, it is nice to see that owners are recognising that they can do other disciplines and by KS going to Laura, he is going to be given the best chance to fulfil this, be it as a dressage horse, jumper, eventer, happy hack, lead horse&#8230; Yes it is sad for the staff in Ditcheat who I am sure, care deeply for KS but he will be respected by the people who will now work with him and I am sure that ultimately, KS will make a decision on what he wants to do as the people involved with him have nothing to gain (reputation wise) by pushing a publicly adored horse into something he doesn&#8217;t want to do.


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## Caledonia (12 December 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I'll be amazed if he stays with LC I expect in time to hear that like Denham he's in a very special private home.
		
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Great, pillar to posting a legend. Absolute disgrace when he had a secure and happy future at Ditcheat.


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## Star_Chaser (12 December 2012)

No opinion on this but I wish him well in his new career whatever that maybe.


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## Dobiegirl (12 December 2012)

Ive no doubt he has gone to a brilliant home but I am still saddened, Kauto is a legend and could have been used in ways to fund ex racehorses. If he had stayed at PNs yard and had the occasional half days hunting he could have still paraded for all his fans and could have raised money at the same time. My sadness is that racing fans will not get to see him anymore, it is looking unlikely that he will be going to Kempton on Boxing day which considering he won 5 King Georges is a huge disappointment to all his fans. 

I just hope when the dust settles PN and CS can sit down and decide when his time with LC is over he can come back to PN and live out his days there.


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## be positive (12 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Ive no doubt he has gone to a brilliant home but I am still saddened, Kauto is a legend and could have been used in ways to fund ex racehorses. If he had stayed at PNs yard and had the occasional half days hunting he could have still paraded for all his fans and could have raised money at the same time. My sadness is that racing fans will not get to see him anymore, it is looking unlikely that he will be going to Kempton on Boxing day which considering he won 5 King Georges is a huge disappointment to all his fans. 

I just hope when the dust settles PN and CS can sit down and decide when his time with LC is over he can come back to PN and live out his days there.
		
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What life is that for a horse that is still young, living the life of a racehorse but not having the racing, just being paraded around to keep the fans happy, he has done his bit, well more than a bit, for racing, his fans and the team at Ditcheat, he will still be able to make special appearances to raise some money and also the profile of retraining racehorses for a useful life outside of racing.

I saw him regularly in the yard and out on exercise, he is a bright horse and I hate the thought of seeing him doing the daily walk down the road, up the gallops, down the road, up the gallops it would be sad for such a proud horse to be stuck with such a routine for the rest of his days. To keep him in training but not racing would be totally selfish, it may keep the staff on the yard happy but it is the horses  welfare that should be put first.

Good luck to Yogi and Laura, I am sure he will enjoy his new life.


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## MICHAELA8228 (12 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			For what its worth if he was my horse I would have given him to Clifford and allowed him to stay at the yard and to lead out the horses for work.

I hope he settles well in his new home and goes on to do other things and he continues to enjoy his life.
		
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Me too!!


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## Caledonia (12 December 2012)

be positive said:



			What life is that for a horse that is still young, living the life of a racehorse but not having the racing, just being paraded around to keep the fans happy, he has done his bit, well more than a bit, for racing, his fans and the team at Ditcheat, he will still be able to make special appearances to raise some money and also the profile of retraining racehorses for a useful life outside of racing.

I saw him regularly in the yard and out on exercise, he is a bright horse and I hate the thought of seeing him doing the daily walk down the road, up the gallops, down the road, up the gallops it would be sad for such a proud horse to be stuck with such a routine for the rest of his days. To keep him in training but not racing would be totally selfish, it may keep the staff on the yard happy but it is the horses  welfare that should be put first.

Good luck to Yogi and Laura, I am sure he will enjoy his new life.
		
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And why will going round in circles forced into an outline and never getting to gallop again be a happier future?


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## PolarSkye (12 December 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Worryingly yes.

The nicest picture I have seen for ages was the one of Denham surrounded by ponies on a hunt ride that was just lovely.
		
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100% agree.  

Personally, I am looking forward to hearing about this lovely horse's progress in his new career . . . a livery at our yard rescues ex racers and her latest project, a five-year-old, is excelling at retraining and does a very credible dressage test now.  Racehorses are more than capable of taking on another discipline once they leave the track, and harnessing all that innate intelligence and energy in a discipline like eventing or dressage seems to me to be very sensible.  As to whether fears over whether he will be as well-treated at LC's yard as he was at Ditcheat . . . what rubbish.  I'm sure the yard staff will learn his little quirks and likes and dislikes and treat him accordingly - just as they do every horse in their care.

It's not like he's been advertised on Gumtree!

P


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## Lolo (12 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			And why will going round in circles forced into an outline and never getting to gallop again be a happier future? 

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Dunno about you, but all our horses go galloping for fun, and part of their fitness work. 

He's not Valegro or any of that lot- he's a horse on a yard where a huge part of any fitness work will be done hacking out, as is the norm on eventing yards. 

And, just FYI, an outline should never be forced. If you're forcing it, you're doing it wrong...


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## PolarSkye (12 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			And why will going round in circles forced into an outline and never getting to gallop again be a happier future? 

Click to expand...

Forced into an outline?  Where did you get that from?  I don't force my horse into an outline, I help and encourage him to use his body so that he can carry himself and me softly.  I'm a relatively novice-y rider . . . I suspect LC and YB know far more about getting horses to use themselves in different ways than me.  

Never getting to gallop?  Who says dressage horses don't gallop?  And who says if he has another outlet for his intelligence and energy that he will miss being a racehorse?

I really do think some people are forgetting that horses are just that, horses.  They don't hit the floor on foaling preprogrammed to be a racehorse, an eventer, a happy hacker or a circus pony . . . in the best instances their natural instincts, intellect and conformation are taken into account and harnessed for a particular discipline . . . but to suggest that horses can only ever do one job is blinkered (pardon the pun).  

P


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## be positive (12 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			And why will going round in circles forced into an outline and never getting to gallop again be a happier future? 

Click to expand...

Why is it assumed that he will be forced into an outline, he carries himself in a  good natural way it should be fairly easy for him to get to a basic level of dressage, as for galloping as Laura events I would expect the horse to have a varied workload, proper hacking in fields and probably popping some fences, much more fun than the roads and allweather gallop which was all he had until now.


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## Goldenstar (12 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			And why will going round in circles forced into an outline and never getting to gallop again be a happier future? 

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Have you ever seen LC ride ? Forced into a outline , I don't  think so and why should he never get to gallop again ?


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## Swirlymurphy (12 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			And why will going round in circles forced into an outline and never getting to gallop again be a happier future? 

Click to expand...


This is a wind-up right?  It must be!


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## bonny (12 December 2012)

I think the difference on this thread is between some who see Kauto as a horse, an exracehorse at that and think going to do dressage is a good idea for a middle aged horse, and those that follow racing and see him as an icon, a legend. Following him over his career he became almost public property, you become involved and moved by his exploits and by the fact that he was the best we ever saw. I for one hate the thought of him doing dressage, and last night overever irrational it sounds to some, upset at the thought of him leaving his home.  I think he should of been given to Paul Nichols and stayed there for the rest of his life. No one should be trying to make him just an ordinary exracehorse.


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## Daffodil (12 December 2012)

It's very regrettable that, because of Paul Nicholl's hasty "grand gesture" in ringing Clive Smith and having Kauto removed from the yard as speedily as he did, he will, in all likelihood, deprive this wonder horse's fans from seeing him at Kempton on Boxing Day.

I just can't see that happening now.


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## AdorableAlice (12 December 2012)

Why don't some of you put the same amount of effort into campaigning for the care and welfare of the huge amount of not so famous racehorses, many of which find themselves in dire need of a good home.

These horses would love to find themselves in the hands of a master horseman such as Yogi Bresnier. 

Kauto Star will want for nothing and be given every opportunity to have a long, happy, useful and un-stressed life.  The clown who commented about the horse doing endless circles because he is a 'dressage' horse, obviously has no idea what being reschooled actually means.

I really hope he enjoys his new life, perhaps we will see him at Hoy's, displaying perfect flat work in the Racehorse to Riding horse championship.

He is a legend, will remain a legend in the minds of all of us lucky enough to have been around to see him and the legend has been very fortunate to be owned by someone who is willing and caring enough to ensure the horse a safe future.

A future that does not entail leading the string galloping up a hill day after day followed by a spell on the walker and 22 hours in the stable.  That is the perfectly acceptable lifestyle of a racehorse, he is not a racehorse anymore and deserves to spend the rest of his life in a more natural routine.

For those of us old enough to remember.....Hallo Dandy didn't have such a good deal, and there will be plenty of old racehorses in fields right now, minus 3 degrees and no grub, wishing they belonged to Mr Smith.


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## Daffodil (12 December 2012)

Totally agree Alice.    I am completely baffled by the hysteria this change of stable and career has generated.

Personally (apart from probably not seeing him at Kempton) I think it's an excellent outcome.


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## Fantasy_World (12 December 2012)

bonny said:



			I think the difference on this thread is between some who see Kauto as a horse, an exracehorse at that and think going to do dressage is a good idea for a middle aged horse, and those that follow racing and see him as an icon, a legend. Following him over his career he became almost public property, you become involved and moved by his exploits and by the fact that he was the best we ever saw. I for one hate the thought of him doing dressage, and last night overever irrational it sounds to some, upset at the thought of him leaving his home.  I think he should of been given to Paul Nichols and stayed there for the rest of his life. No one should be trying to make him just an ordinary exracehorse.
		
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Agree! 
Also to note the person that was in discussion about his future was his owner Clive Smith who I doubt has had the closeness to the horse that the staff at Ditcheat had.
Sorry but going to the races, maybe see him popping a few fences at home, or a few gallops up the gallops is not enough for him to make an informed decision.
Whilst I respect Yogi Breisner and indeed Laura Collett, I happen to respect Paul Nicholls and Brian Clifford more. 
No body knows Kauto better than these two, except perhaps for his groom who would have had a good idea of his general attitude to life.
Kauto Star is not just some ex racer he is a superstar!
Could you imagine what the late Ginger McCain would have told people if it was suggested that the legendary Red Rum was being shipped off to do dressage?
Or even Desert Orchid, what would his trainer have made of the news?
Kauto is up there, with them. He is held in a similarly high regard as afforded to a National Hunt horse with such talent.
He deserved an easier life. 
One that revolved around his home DITCHEAT! 
He would not have led a boring life there.
Did Red Rum or Dessie look bored to tears doing parades and racecourse gallops?
Of course not.
There were so many options available to Kauto Star.
So why was this one chosen?
The owner appears to know what is best for the horse.
Why was he up at all hours mucking out, feeding and grooming.
Did he carefully ride Kauto up the gallops and over the schooling jumps.
No of course not.
He paid the bills but had been rewarded ten fold with the horse of a lifetime.
Not just in prize money and trophies but also it helped to get his name in the papers.
Now instead of choosing to keep the horse with one of the best trainers in the country who could have assured his future and that his legend remained, he is to turn his back on the sport that made him and his horse famous and instead chase yet more glory for his horse.
Kauto has nothing more to prove to anybody. 
It disgusts me !


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## Daffodil (12 December 2012)

Heavens above, Fantasy World, you do live up to your name!


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## PolarSkye (12 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Now instead of choosing to keep the horse with one of the best trainers in the country who could have assured his future and that his legend remained
		
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Assured his future doing what exactly?  Leading out the string and doing the odd parade?  Seems to me a horse as young and intelligent as KS needs a proper job to do . . . and what's wrong with trying his hoof at a new career?  Trying dressage by no means takes away from his awesome record at the track . . . it just means his brain and body are kept active and he has the chance to shine in a new way.  LC and YB will be more than aware what a national treasure KS is and will undoubtedly do their utmost to get the best of out him . . . including admitting defeat should KS not take to his new "job."  

I'm sorry, but I just can't get my head round the idea that seeing if this wonderfully intelligent little horse can do another job in any way tarnishes his lofty achievements so far.

Why wouldn't those who love him want to see him having fun learning something new?  He's only 8 . . . if he takes to dressage or even eventing, how much fun will it be for his public to see him succeed at something else?  If he doesn't, then I'm sure the relevant connections will find another outlet for his energy and intelligence.

P


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## Fantasy_World (12 December 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			Why don't some of you put the same amount of effort into campaigning for the care and welfare of the huge amount of not so famous racehorses, many of which find themselves in dire need of a good home.

These horses would love to find themselves in the hands of a master horseman such as Yogi Bresnier. 

Kauto Star will want for nothing and be given every opportunity to have a long, happy, useful and un-stressed life.  The clown who commented about the horse doing endless circles because he is a 'dressage' horse, obviously has no idea what being reschooled actually means.

I really hope he enjoys his new life, perhaps we will see him at Hoy's, displaying perfect flat work in the Racehorse to Riding horse championship.

He is a legend, will remain a legend in the minds of all of us lucky enough to have been around to see him and the legend has been very fortunate to be owned by someone who is willing and caring enough to ensure the horse a safe future.

A future that does not entail leading the string galloping up a hill day after day followed by a spell on the walker and 22 hours in the stable.  That is the perfectly acceptable lifestyle of a racehorse, he is not a racehorse anymore and deserves to spend the rest of his life in a more natural routine.

For those of us old enough to remember.....Hallo Dandy didn't have such a good deal, and there will be plenty of old racehorses in fields right now, minus 3 degrees and no grub, wishing they belonged to Mr Smith.
		
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Actually I do campaign and also own an ex racer who was reschooled and is a hack.
Kauto was not a horse that needed 'saving' he was offered a permanent and loving home by Nicholls. 
As for the comment about the horse being in a more natural routine.
Don't make me laugh.
How is a competition horse kept in a natural routine?
Frankly it is not much different from being trained as a racehorse.


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## AdorableAlice (12 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Agree! 
Also to note the person that was in discussion about his future was his owner Clive Smith who I doubt has had the closeness to the horse that the staff at Ditcheat had.
Sorry but going to the races, maybe see him popping a few fences at home, or a few gallops up the gallops is not enough for him to make an informed decision.
Whilst I respect Yogi Breisner and indeed Laura Collett, I happen to respect Paul Nicholls and Brian Clifford more. 
No body knows Kauto better than these two, except perhaps for his groom who would have had a good idea of his general attitude to life.
Kauto Star is not just some ex racer he is a superstar!
Could you imagine what the late Ginger McCain would have told people if it was suggested that the legendary Red Rum was being shipped off to do dressage?
Or even Desert Orchid, what would his trainer have made of the news?
Kauto is up there, with them. He is held in a similarly high regard as afforded to a National Hunt horse with such talent.
He deserved an easier life. 
One that revolved around his home DITCHEAT! 
He would not have led a boring life there.
Did Red Rum or Dessie look bored to tears doing parades and racecourse gallops?
Of course not.
There were so many options available to Kauto Star.
So why was this one chosen?
The owner appears to know what is best for the horse.
Why was he up at all hours mucking out, feeding and grooming.
Did he carefully ride Kauto up the gallops and over the schooling jumps.
No of course not.
He paid the bills but had been rewarded ten fold with the horse of a lifetime.
Not just in prize money and trophies but also it helped to get his name in the papers.
Now instead of choosing to keep the horse with one of the best trainers in the country who could have assured his future and that his legend remained, he is to turn his back on the sport that made him and his horse famous and instead chase yet more glory for his horse.
Kauto has nothing more to prove to anybody. 
It disgusts me !
		
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Excellent user name matches the post entirely.

The horse is 11.  Given a bit of luck and good health he should make it to 25 plus.  Superstar or not he won't be leading a string of young racehorses up the hill for many more years.  What is he going to do on a busy racing yard as an old horse ?  He should have 10 years of being able to enjoy life doing a variety of activities that are within the capabilites of an ageing horse.  Galloping up Ditcheats hill or being chucked out in the field are not included.

He will never lose his status as a legend and his owner should be respected for ensuring the horse has the opportunity to live his life out with the best of everything.


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## PolarSkye (12 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			As for the comment about the horse being in a more natural routine.
Don't make me laugh.
How is a competition horse kept in a natural routine?
Frankly it is not much different from being trained as a racehorse.
		
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Ask Carl Hester about that . . . his horses hack out, have regular turnout, have a varied schooling routine.  Some top eventers hunt even while competing.  How many top racehorses have a similar routine?  

There are three BE and two BD horses on my yard . . . they go out in the field every day for a good six/seven hours, they hack regularly, school, go round the gallops, box up and go to clinics and compete.  Doesn't sound like the life of a top racehorse to me.

As far as I know CS hasn't said he's aiming KS at Rio 2016 . . . nor Badminton, the World Dressage Championships, etc.  He's merely gone to LC's yard to see if he has an aptitude for dressage.  If he manages to do well at some unaffiliated competitions, that will be an achievement and do his brain and body the world of good for learning a new set of skills.

P


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## claracanter (12 December 2012)

some goods points in this piece on the subject

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/dec/12/kauto-star-racing-fans-dressage

Also must add, if my ex racehorse came 1st in an unaffiliated walk and trot test I would be over the moon and he would not feel humiliated!


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## bonny (12 December 2012)

claracanter said:



			some goods points in this piece on the subject

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/dec/12/kauto-star-racing-fans-dressage

Also must add, if my ex racehorse came 1st in an unaffiliated walk and trot test I would be over the moon and he would not feel humiliated!
		
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He is NOT a normal exracehorse and I would one would feel that he's being humiliated if he ever takes part in an unaffliated walk and trot test. What on earth would that prove ?


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## justabob (12 December 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			Excellent user name matches the post entirely.

The horse is 11.  Given a bit of luck and good health he should make it to 25 plus.  Superstar or not he won't be leading a string of young racehorses up the hill for many more years.  What is he going to do on a busy racing yard as an old horse ?  He should have 10 years of being able to enjoy life doing a variety of activities that are within the capabilites of an ageing horse.  Galloping up Ditcheats hill or being chucked out in the field are not included.

He will never lose his status as a legend and his owner should be respected for ensuring the horse has the opportunity to live his life out with the best of everything.
		
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You have summed it up perfectly AA. One of the best posts on this thread.


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## AdorableAlice (12 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Actually I do campaign and also own an ex racer who was reschooled and is a hack.
Kauto was not a horse that needed 'saving' he was offered a permanent and loving home by Nicholls. 
As for the comment about the horse being in a more natural routine.
Don't make me laugh.
How is a competition horse kept in a natural routine?
Frankly it is not much different from being trained as a racehorse.
		
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I did not suggest the horse needs saving.

Natural routine - slow work, taught to round and go deep, bend, plenty of turn out every day, belly full of fibre, no scopes or blood tests every other day should result in a let down, relaxed and sound horse.

I admire everyone who rehomes and has the skill to retrain a racehorse, I know little about horses and certainly would not have the experience to do it.  I had no intention of making you or anybody else laugh, but the life of a competition horse and a racehorse do have wide differences and that is why you will see old competition horses still winning in their late teens and racehorses at the end of their careers at 10 to 12.  The lucky and sound ones, like KS, going onto to a fullfilling and happy second half of their lives, funded by responsible owners.


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## claracanter (12 December 2012)

bonny said:



			He is NOT a normal exracehorse and I would one would feel that he's being humiliated if he ever takes part in an unaffliated walk and trot test. What on earth would that prove ?
		
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Do you think Neptune Collanges felt humiliated when he won one then?

I think it's great for ex racehorses that such a high profile one is attempting retraining.


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## AdorableAlice (12 December 2012)

bonny said:



			He is NOT a normal exracehorse and I would one would feel that he's being humiliated if he ever takes part in an unaffliated walk and trot test. What on earth would that prove ?
		
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The horse has NOTHING to prove.

The owner of the horse has EVERYTHING to prove, and by ensuring the horse is kept like a king, reschooled to ensure he remains sound in both mind and body and placing the horse with the best handlers capable of handling this type of horse, the owner has proved himself.

All legends, equine or human, reach the end of their career at some point, what do they do then ?  So many posters are saying KS should stay in his box on the same routine regardless of his age and mental well being.
Perhaps we should insist AP rides a racehorse in his old age because he is a legend.  My guess he would prefer a days hunting on a safe conveyance.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the horse enjoying doing something else, it's called enjoying semi retirement.


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## Dobiegirl (12 December 2012)

I think also its the fact PN was never consulted, PN was deemed good enough to train him for all those years but wasnt considered for discussion on his retirement plans. I hope that hasnt set a precedent and if or when CS decides he would like KS to do something else he will discuss it with LC rather than keep her in the dark .

If that did happen I can imagine the furore on here and then you will  actually  be able to experience what us PN fans are experiencing.


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 December 2012)

PN isn't the easiest of people to deal with and maybe that is why CS opted out of further consultation with him with regards to the horse.


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## bonny (12 December 2012)

claracanter said:



			Do you think Neptune Collanges felt humiliated when he won one then?

I think it's great for ex racehorses that such a high profile one is attempting retraining.
		
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There is a world of difference between the 2 horses, Kauto Star is a legend, Neptune Collenges just a very good chaser. They also seem to have very diferent temperments. Kauto Star became the horses he was because of Paul Nicholls, he made the decisions, to an extent he became his horse and I think what he wanted should of been taken into account.
In my opinion Kauto Star does not need another career, he was the best and the thought of him doing a walk and trot test is cringeworthy. I suspect the horse will think the same himself and then where does he go ?


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## oldvic (12 December 2012)

The good news is that Kauto Star has been moved to a top class yard with top horsemen who are under no illusion that he is going to find it easy and will hopefully not be pressured into asking him something he finds too hard. Yogi is probably one of the most experienced all round horseman around and understands the difference between all the disciplines and how different temperaments and conformation cope with what is being asked. There is no doubt that the horse will be somewhat bemused to start with - he has spent the last 8 years walking up the road with his friends, cantering up the gallop and walking home. He is comfortable with that and knows what each day is likely to bring. Some horses thrive on this routine, indeed need it, others need the variety that the 1st type find so stressful. He has always been very well ridden but I don't believe that Paul Nicholls uses regular flatwork sessions like some trainers do so he is comfortable going his way and what he will be asked will be completely foreign to him. It will be like a middle aged man taking up pilates - hard!
Also to take into account is his conformation and movement. He has never been a great mover, particularly behind and had an injury behind when he fell at Exeter as a novice. By nature he doesn't step under behind and carry himself on his hind legs (like Neptune Collonges does) but is more inclined to push out behind and keep his back a little hollow. Is it right or necessary to ask him to change? He will certainly find himself out of his comfort zone however sympathetic Laura and Yogi are.
Reading between the lines, I suspect it all stems from 2 strong minded people failing to find middle ground and the horse being caught in the middle. PN has dealt with him for 8 years, knows all his quirks and foibles and has a shrewd idea that KS is happiest in a string doing what he knows and isn't one to happily go off on his own. Clive Smith has heard of others hunting and competing and wants his horse to do the same. His motivation for that is anyone's guess but I don't think he will have prepared himself for the flak. He is not a horseman and may not understand quite what is involved. Now the bridges are burnt, he won't be going back to Ditcheat so what happens to a high mettled horse who doesn't like going out on his own if a competition career doesn't beckon?


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## Dobiegirl (12 December 2012)

EKW said:



			PN isn't the easiest of people to deal with and maybe that is why CS opted out of further consultation with him with regards to the horse.
		
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I havnt heard that, I know his staff have been there for years and years which speaks volumes. I know he is a perfectionist but that is why he is so succesful. Ive heard various things over the years in regard to CS and its well documented in PNs book about how CS came to him after falling out with Martin Pipe.

I hope that after KS career is over and he retires properly he can go back to Ditcheat if both parties agree.


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## Fantasy_World (12 December 2012)

oldvic very well said ! A post that makes a lot of sense. Yes Kauto Star is indeed the one caught in the middle of all this.

With regard to another comment about Paul Nicholls being hard to get on with. I have never found that to be the case and have never heard a bad word said about him either!


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## Chestnuttymare (12 December 2012)

I am really torn over the plans for KS. I adore this horse like most of the people on here. I stood in the bookies trying to hide the  tears streaming down my face the last time he ran, i know he stirs such emotions in many. I didn't want him to run there as he had just had a bad fall in training but the connections said he was fit for it and we have to trust what they say, then he was pulled up. 
I keep thinking though, horses live in the moment. he will take a bit of time to settle in, and that saddens me, he could have still been at PN and not have that transition. but he won't be thinking he is being humiliated by doing a bit of dressage. LC seems to be a decent girl who is in the main an eventer so I am sure she hacks the horses and likes a blast. can you imagine having ks in your yard and not taking him for a gallop. Even if she is away eventing, i am sure she has capable staff who will be riding KS so he isn't going to be wasting away through lack of attention. He is used to being adored and having lots of attention and i am hoping he will have the same at LC's place. who wouldn't love him.
The bit that worries me is that he has a lot of miles on the clock and pn said he isn't up for it. then i think, well my mare (ex pointer) had a lot of miles on the clock and had numerous issues and is now a happy content horse in her mid 20's, still hacking out and having a good life. as long as she is in her routine she is happy and i know what she is capable of and what she can't do now. who's to say that KS won't have a routine that he is happy with and a workload suited to his needs.  I know she isn't a legend like KS, so not making that comparison, but I don't know if he will be thinking, i am a superstar, i'm not doing this crap.

I have read all the posts and can see all sides of the argument. PN staff know the horse better than anyone but are upset and obviously emotional right now and the tweets have echoed this.

I think all of us respect Kauto Star, the best chaser of all time. He has earned his owner an absolute fortune and owes him nothing. He most certainly owes him a heck of a lot and should have the best retirement from racing possible. He is only 12 and i know my horse wouldn't have enjoyed life as much if she didn't have something to do. I am guessing that a clever and fit horse like him would be similar.

Clive Smith has said that if for any reason it's not the best thing for him then he will go home to his place so we know he isn't going to be passed around. 

Only time will tell how this will pan out, I just hope his best interests will always be the priority.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (12 December 2012)

Double_choc_lab said:



			It does make me laugh when Clive Smith says that others such as Neptune have made a successful transition into dressage  FGS he's won an unaffiliated walk and trot test - WOW.
		
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poor nipper! Hes got to start somewhere!


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## AdorableAlice (12 December 2012)

EKW said:



			PN isn't the easiest of people to deal with and maybe that is why CS opted out of further consultation with him with regards to the horse.
		
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Perhaps we all need to remember training horses for owners is a business.  Plenty of trainers regardless of the discipline will have had horses removed or sold for a variety of reasons.

An owner is just that, an owner who pays the bills that keep the trainer in business and enable the trainer to give local people gainful employment.  Most owners pay a lot of money for the horse and it's training costs in the hope that the horse stays safe, comes home and maybe wins something.

Mr Smith could have taken the horse home for his daughter to do pony club on if he wished.  The reality is the owner has done what he considers the best for his horse, regardless of what legendary status the horse has. The horse is in safe hands.

A number of decent horses have gone from the yard and other yards to the point to point field to ply their trade in their old age, as schoolmasters, nothing wrong with that at all.  It is the owners decision but I expect the staff that did those horses would have prefered them to go to a less risky second career.  Personally I find watching horses that have won good races, slog their way round for £50 an unedifying sight.  It was far more pleasurable to watch the racehorse class at the NEC, anyone that saw Rogers Revenge win will know what I mean.


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## oldvic (12 December 2012)

PolarExpress said:



			Assured his future doing what exactly?  Leading out the string and doing the odd parade?  Seems to me a horse as young and intelligent as KS needs a proper job to do . . . and what's wrong with trying his hoof at a new career?  Trying dressage by no means takes away from his awesome record at the track . . . it just means his brain and body are kept active and he has the chance to shine in a new way.  LC and YB will be more than aware what a national treasure KS is and will undoubtedly do their utmost to get the best of out him . . . including admitting defeat should KS not take to his new "job."  

I'm sorry, but I just can't get my head round the idea that seeing if this wonderfully intelligent little horse can do another job in any way tarnishes his lofty achievements so far.

Why wouldn't those who love him want to see him having fun learning something new?  He's only 8 . . . if he takes to dressage or even eventing, how much fun will it be for his public to see him succeed at something else?  If he doesn't, then I'm sure the relevant connections will find another outlet for his energy and intelligence.

P
		
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His future would have been assured doing what he knows and is comfortable with. He is not 8, he will be 13 in 3 weeks time. While still relatively young, he is at an age where life starts to catch up on you.



AdorableAlice said:



			I did not suggest the horse needs saving.

Natural routine - slow work, taught to round and go deep, bend, plenty of turn out every day, belly full of fibre, no scopes or blood tests every other day should result in a let down, relaxed and sound horse.

I admire everyone who rehomes and has the skill to retrain a racehorse, I know little about horses and certainly would not have the experience to do it.  I had no intention of making you or anybody else laugh, but the life of a competition horse and a racehorse do have wide differences and that is why you will see old competition horses still winning in their late teens and racehorses at the end of their careers at 10 to 12.  The lucky and sound ones, like KS, going onto to a fullfilling and happy second half of their lives, funded by responsible owners.
		
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He will find round and deep pretty uncomfortable for a bit. His muscles are developed in a completely different way. If he is not running there will be no need for the expense of scopes and blood tests. They are done when deemed necessary, not routinely on a daily basis. The reason that racehorses careers end at 10 - 12 is that they lose their speed so then are beaten by younger faster horses. Yes there are differences between racehorses and competition horses, but many racehorses have regular turnout. Retirement can be a problem for old competition horses, especially the high level ones as they don't necessarily cope well with a change in lifestyle.



AdorableAlice said:



			Excellent user name matches the post entirely.

The horse is 11.  Given a bit of luck and good health he should make it to 25 plus.  Superstar or not he won't be leading a string of young racehorses up the hill for many more years.  What is he going to do on a busy racing yard as an old horse ?  He should have 10 years of being able to enjoy life doing a variety of activities that are within the capabilites of an ageing horse.  Galloping up Ditcheats hill or being chucked out in the field are not included.

He will never lose his status as a legend and his owner should be respected for ensuring the horse has the opportunity to live his life out with the best of everything.
		
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He is nearly 13, not 11. I don't think his body will appreciate dressage in 10 years time. He would be able to do steady work on the gallops for some time yet - probably as long as he could do dressage comfortably. Working racehorses isn't all about galloping flat out.


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## Kat (12 December 2012)

I think that retraining a horse with a high profile like Kauto Star for an alternative career may well be beneficial for many wider reasons too. 

1. It will publicise the issue of retraining race horses and raise awareness
2. It will make people more aware of what ex-race horses are capable of (especially if he does well)
3. It could raise the profile of whatever sphere he ends up in
4. The debate about his future will hopefully remind racing fans and the industry of what can happen to ex-racehorses who aren't so lucky. 

Personally I think those saying he shouldn't have been moved are doing so for rather selfish reasons and are imposing human values upon the horse. The horse will be well cared for and provided for in the future, he doesn't care whether he is treated like a star or not. In fact he would probably be happier if he was treated like a horse.


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## bonny (12 December 2012)

KristmasKat said:



			I think that retraining a horse with a high profile like Kauto Star for an alternative career may well be beneficial for many wider reasons too. 

1. It will publicise the issue of retraining race horses and raise awareness
2. It will make people more aware of what ex-race horses are capable of (especially if he does well)
3. It could raise the profile of whatever sphere he ends up in
4. The debate about his future will hopefully remind racing fans and the industry of what can happen to ex-racehorses who aren't so lucky. 

Personally I think those saying he shouldn't have been moved are doing so for rather selfish reasons and are imposing human values upon the horse. The horse will be well cared for and provided for in the future, he doesn't care whether he is treated like a star or not. In fact he would probably be happier if he was treated like a horse.
		
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He's already shown what he's capable of and adding some low key dressage events into the mix will not enhance anything about him. Plus there are already alot of exracehorses out there competing in all disciplines, look at the number of threads about them on here alone.
I think the fact that he did so well where he was shows us that he was happy and well cared for there, they are the team who know him, who wanted to keep him and they should of been allowed to do just that.....


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## Miss L Toe (12 December 2012)

EKW said:



			Ah! It looks as though everyone at Ditcheat thought that Kauto was going to live out his retirement there and not go on and do another job! 

Why keep a horse on a yard, half fit, knowing what it should be doing but getting frustrated as he's not doing full work. He has a brain, why not use it? He may quite like dressage!
		
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I think that the staff know how to ride a horse, and keep him sweet, otherwise PN would not have good horses which win year after year.
Horses like routine, it is their "comfort blanket"
Horse dont  get frustrated by being half fit, where did you get such a strange idea: that would mean 99 % of horses in this country would be "frustrated"


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## Marydoll (12 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			And why will going round in circles forced into an outline and never getting to gallop again be a happier future? 

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I really do hope youre trying a wind up. 
Of course he'll be allowed to gallop, and theres more to dressage than going round in circles, if you seriously think you get a horse into an outline by force then that mabe explains your posts.


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## Miss L Toe (12 December 2012)

AdorableAlice said:



			Why don't some of you put the same amount of effort into campaigning for the care and welfare of the huge amount of not so famous racehorses, many of which find themselves in dire need of a good home.

These horses would love to find themselves in the hands of a master horseman such as Yogi Bresnier. 

Kauto Star will want for nothing and be given every opportunity to have a long, happy, useful and un-stressed life.  The clown who commented about the horse doing endless circles because he is a 'dressage' horse, obviously has no idea what being reschooled actually means.

I really hope he enjoys his new life, perhaps we will see him at Hoy's, displaying perfect flat work in the Racehorse to Riding horse championship.

He is a legend, will remain a legend in the minds of all of us lucky enough to have been around to see him and the legend has been very fortunate to be owned by someone who is willing and caring enough to ensure the horse a safe future.

A future that does not entail leading the string galloping up a hill day after day followed by a spell on the walker and 22 hours in the stable.  That is the perfectly acceptable lifestyle of a racehorse, he is not a racehorse anymore and deserves to spend the rest of his life in a more natural routine.

For those of us old enough to remember.....Hallo Dandy didn't have such a good deal, and there will be plenty of old racehorses in fields right now, minus 3 degrees and no grub, wishing they belonged to Mr Smith.
		
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You are correct, and incorrect:
There are plenty of ex racing TB s who could be re trained, they sell for £500 or less, and some may do well.
Of all the horses I rode in racing  [1000 +/-], I rode only one which could have competed at dressage [it was not a good jumper btw],  I also rode Viking Flagship occasionally, who was comparable to Kauto Star.......... he enjoyed his retirement as trainers hack, perfectly happy, stayed in the number one box, and did his job on a day to day basis, leading youngsters, hacking out newbies, popping fences, pinging hurdles, pefectly happy.
I have worked in some good  NH racing stables, and most horses like being there, obviously some don't.
But they are allowed to walk out naturally on a long rein, not kept "on the bit" and asked to do "movements", OK,  when in work, they have to do a bit of hard work every so often, but really,  it is an ideal life if they are in the right stable.
In a competative dressage yard he will never go out to grass, probably never allowed to walk naturally.
In NH racing, he has 3-5 months in summer on grass., and is stabled when it is cold and wet, hacked out in comapny, not asked to submit all the time, and no annoyingperson on top concerned to make him look "collected"


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## TelH (12 December 2012)

Kauto has been put on a pedestal by so many because of what he achieved. He is arguably the greatest national hunt horse of our time but he doesn't know that. He's just a horse, in his own mind he's probably no different than something that trails in last in a bin end race in the back of beyond. Sure, it would have been a nice happy ending if he stayed at Ditcheat but it wasn't to be. Plenty of horses move on when their days at the top are over, not just in racing, in all equestrian sports. Most of them adapt well and there's no reason why, given time, Kauto won't adapt to his new life too. As long as Kauto is healthy, happy and well cared for that's all that really matters.


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## Kat (12 December 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			In a competative dressage yard he will never go out to grass, at least in NH racing, he has 3-5 months in summer on grass.
		
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Firstly he isn't going to a competitive dressage yard, he's going to an eventing yard. Secondly dressage horses do go out, Carl Hester's horses all have regular turnout, not just holidays during the off season. Thirdly, we don't know what the long term plan is whether it is to have him competing in dressage, eventing, showing or doing something else alltogether, he is with Laura Collett for re-training. 

But I doubt very much that a bit of dressage training with people like Yogi and Laura will do him any harm, if anything it will help him lead a useful, sound life away from racing as he will learn to use the muscles that support a rider and to work correctly and in balance.


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## bonny (12 December 2012)

KristmasKat said:



			Firstly he isn't going to a competitive dressage yard, he's going to an eventing yard. Secondly dressage horses do go out, Carl Hester's horses all have regular turnout, not just holidays during the off season. Thirdly, we don't know what the long term plan is whether it is to have him competing in dressage, eventing, showing or doing something else alltogether, he is with Laura Collett for re-training. 

But I doubt very much that a bit of dressage training with people like Yogi and Laura will do him any harm, if anything it will help him lead a useful, sound life away from racing as he will learn to use the muscles that support a rider and to work correctly and in balance.
		
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Some people on here don't half say some weird things about racehorses ! Do you not imagine he's been using the muscles that support a rider up till now ? Or working correctly and in balance ! Amazing that he's achieved so much without ever being trained properly .....


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## Miss L Toe (12 December 2012)

bonny said:



			He's already shown what he's capable of and adding some low key dressage events into the mix will not enhance anything about him. Plus there are already alot of exracehorses out there competing in all disciplines, look at the number of threads about them on here alone.
I think the fact that he did so well where he was shows us that he was happy and well cared for there, they are the team who know him, who wanted to keep him and they should of been allowed to do just that.....
		
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You strike the right note..... almost, yes he can do dressage, yes he can be an eventer [omg lets hope not],  PTP. dangerous, full of amateur riders.
I don't know how Kauto is as a horse, but I remember we had to put one of ours down , simply because the alternative was sending him to to the sales, he had been unraced but kept in the yard for about two years due to fragile legs he was a pro ride, and there are a few....... the owner was a businessman......... he would have sent him to the sales.......... enuff said...........
PS my boy can do low key dessage, but he will never go further, he hates flatwork, is not  "submissive"


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## Miss L Toe (12 December 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I'll be amazed if he stays with LC I expect in time to hear that like Denham he's in a very special private home.
		
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Exactly......., unfortunately for the horse, it is not likely he will ever return to his real home: Ditcheat.
PS I am not number one  fan of PN, he runs a business, and advises his owners from this point of view, but he is experienced and there is no suggestion of over taxing horses , he knows what is best, the owner does not, or so it seems.
Owners and punters have no idea how many mini crises occur day to day, they are not informed of these peaks and troughs,  as far as they are concerned, they turn up, the horse races , end of. Otherwise they would find minimal pleasure, only stress.The trainer absorbs the stress, he is the front man, backed by his staff  and vets and physio and so on... those who are dealing with the horse day to day.


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## Kat (12 December 2012)

bonny said:



			Some people on here don't half say some weird things about racehorses ! Do you not imagine he's been using the muscles that support a rider up till now ? Or working correctly and in balance ! Amazing that he's achieved so much without ever being trained properly .....
		
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and some people say weird things about dressage horses too! 

I suppose I should have said learn how to use the muscles and work in balance for a different type of work. 

I personally doubt that he is intended for a "dressage career" I suspect that the retraining is intended to get him working in such a way that he can do another job, possibly going out and doing RoR and personal appearances etc.


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## Bright_Spark (12 December 2012)

Good luck to KS and LC for the future.

I do find it rather amusing that some poster on here think a horse is going to find doing a walk & trot test "cringeworthy" and "humiliating". Sure, because that's what horses really think about...


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## Miss L Toe (12 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			I havnt heard that, I know his staff have been there for years and years which speaks volumes. I know he is a perfectionist but that is why he is so succesful. Ive heard various things over the years in regard to CS and its well documented in PNs book about how CS came to him after falling out with Martin Pipe.

I hope that after KS career is over and he retires properly he can go back to Ditcheat if both parties agree.
		
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No one with any understanding of horses would have sent a horse to  Martin Pipe, his methods were...... extra-ordinary, win at any cost ..............read PN's book and you will see the difference.


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## Miss L Toe (12 December 2012)

PolarExpress said:



			Ask Carl Hester about that . . . his horses hack out, have regular turnout, have a varied schooling routine.  Some top eventers hunt even while competing.  How many top racehorses have a similar routine?  

There are three BE and two BD horses on my yard . . . they go out in the field every day for a good six/seven hours, they hack regularly, school, go round the gallops, box up and go to clinics and compete.  Doesn't sound like the life of a top racehorse to me.

As far as I know CS hasn't said he's aiming KS at Rio 2016 . . . nor Badminton, the World Dressage Championships, etc.  He's merely gone to LC's yard to see if he has an aptitude for dressage.  If he manages to do well at some unaffiliated competitions, that will be an achievement and do his brain and body the world of good for learning a new set of skills.

P
		
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Some racehorses go hunting to freshen them up. The main aim is to win races, and if that means training them out of a field then that will be done, if it means going to pony club, then so be it. If they need to be hacked they will be hacked, if they need to pop logs, then so be it, if they like hacking out, they get hacked, please do not assume all racehorses are treated the same.
Most yards I have been in have Sunday as day of rest for those in work, that means they get put on walker or turned out in a paddock, only those racing on Monday get a proper 60- 90 mins of excercise. The day after they  "work" they get to hack out round fields and so on.  I have never ever worked in a yard which does the same thing every day.
If PN thought he would be better in a dressage yard, he would have suggested it. If the owner went to a top eventer, would she say...... "no I don't want him............. " "[PS do you pay cash?]"
THe horseis middle aged in human terms , it is too late for him to start gymnastics.


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## bonny (12 December 2012)

Bright_Spark said:



			Good luck to KS and LC for the future.

I do find it rather amusing that some poster on here think a horse is going to find doing a walk & trot test "cringeworthy" and "humiliating". Sure, because that's what horses really think about...

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Non of this is about what the horse thinks about....we have no way of knowing that !


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## Caol Ila (12 December 2012)

I hope that everyone whinging about poor Kauto and his terrible fate as a dressage horse is heavily involved in rehoming all the "nobody" ex-racehorses who are in desperate need of good homes and facing the distinct possibility of going to the meat man.


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## Miss L Toe (12 December 2012)

bonny said:



			Non of this is about what the horse thinks about....we have no way of knowing that !
		
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The whole point of these posts is that PN and his professional, very experienced staff have enough knowledge of the horse to know what he would like to do, and where he would like to be.
If CS had had any sense he would have negotiated with PN to have a trial at another yard, and to return him if things did not work out.
Unfortunately this looks like the beginning of the end of the PN/CS partnership. It happens time and time again.  Owners start off with $$$ and a dream, ,,,,,,,,,,, if it does not work out they move elsewhere, if it does, they lose sight of all the work and advice and assistance they have had..... and well you see what has happened......... There are numerous examples. 
It is no wonder some trainers just get fed up with giving advice which is ignored, and PN is a pretty volatile person anyway.


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## bonny (12 December 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			I hope that everyone whinging about poor Kauto and his terrible fate as a dressage horse is heavily involved in rehoming all the "nobody" ex-racehorses who are in desperate need of good homes and facing the distinct possibility of going to the meat man.
		
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I think you are missing the point ....


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## Caol Ila (12 December 2012)

As someone who couldn't care less about racing, I rather think I have a fairly objective view.  He's a horse.  As long as he's well treated and has food, water, and shelter, he'll be fine.  And who knows?  He may take to his new career.  Many ex-racers do.


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## Miss L Toe (12 December 2012)

marychristmas said:



			I really do hope youre trying a wind up. 
Of course he'll be allowed to gallop, and theres more to dressage than going round in circles, if you seriously think you get a horse into an outline by force then that mabe explains your posts.
		
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I have had leisure horses for five years, and in all that time they have never had more than a few furlongs at a decent pace,  there are few safe places to gallop and few horses who are fit enough, what most people call a gallop is what racing people call a good canter.
Working in an outline?............. look at all the horses who are automatically put in a flash noseband .... 95% of them.  If too "forward going" they  "need" a gag, if not forward going they need spurs.
Dressage horses?  they have to be bandaged to support limbs. What is that all about?

It is experience: there was a nice PTP horse at our DIY yard "trained" by a guy who had worked in a flat yard for a few weeks, this poor mare had six weeks at grass to fatten her up,  and then six weeks later was getting an hour round the fields, six weeks later she was in a ptp, six weeks later she was shot.
Nothing wrong with her initially, just ignorance and greed. He was warned by someone who had been in racing that she "has a leg", but no,,,,,,, he bashed on and she "broke down" in her next outing.


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## be positive (12 December 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Some racehorses go hunting to freshen them up. The main aim is to win races, and if that means training them out of a field then that will be done, if it means going to pony club, then so be it. If they need to be hacked they will be hacked, if they need to pop logs, then so be it, if they like hacking out, they get hacked, please do not assume all racehorses are treated the same.
Most yards I have been in have Sunday as day of rest for those in work, that means they get put on walker or turned out in a paddock, only those racing on Monday get a proper 60- 90 mins of excercise. The day after they  "work" they get to hack out round fields and so on.  I have never ever worked in a yard which does the same thing every day.
If PN thought he would be better in a dressage yard, he would have suggested it. If the owner went to a top eventer, would she say...... "no I don't want him............. " "[PS do you pay cash?]"
THe horseis middle aged in human terms , it is too late for him to start gymnastics.
		
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If you knew PN's yard you would know there is very little variety in their work, hacking round fields is a very rare occurrence, most horses go up the gallops 3 times each day, walk on the roads to the bottom, go up, walk on the road to the bottom go back up, they do have another gallop a flat one for sharper work but the majority of the exercise is exactly the same every day. Walker each afternoon, no turn out, except in exceptional circumstances and obviously in the summer break.
Not all yards have so little variation, none are as successful in recent times but for people to state that KS would be better staying there is not allowing the horse to have a varied life and I think he deserves to have a chance to have that variety, if it does not suit him I am sure CS will find somewhere else for him.


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## Caledonia (12 December 2012)

He is muscled to be a racehorse, not a dressage horse. His core muscles and his extensors and flexors have all been established in racing work. To change that round in the short space of time that he is being given with LC to cope with dressage movement even at a low level will involve forceful riding to an extent. He should have been totally let down, and then gently rebuilt. 

He's not going to be her eventer, so she's probably going to get fed up riding him. He dropped Clifford last week - poor horse being wheeled round an indoor school first thing this morning before he's even had a day or so to settle in. 

So no, I'm not on a wind up, he won't get to gallop, they'd be mad to do that if this is a genuine attempt to give him a dressage career.

ETA - now whether or not you were deliberately missing the point, I don't know, but since when did spiralling in circles in an arena become more appealing to a racehorse than continuing to do what he finds easy and loves? :-?


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## Scarlett (12 December 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			THe horseis middle aged in human terms , it is too late for him to start gymnastics.
		
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I have to disagree. KS has not been stood in a field for his 12 years doing nothing, he's an athlete, he is fit and muscled, yes he has been using different muscles and moving a different way but he is used to being fit and working. As long as his transition from racehorse to riding horse is done sympathetically and with his long term health in mind then there is no reason why he cannot go do gymnastics. He needs retrained, not started from scratch.

I have a collection of exracers, inc one we bought aged 11 from the trainers yard. He's a ex-jumper with a reputation for being hot, dumping folk and continuing off the end of the gallops in his younger days. He's been a pleasure to reschool, has hunted with me, sj'd with my novice OH and could do a decent dressage test if we were that way inclined and had aimed him at it. 

Older exracers achieve different things in their new careers on a daily basis, this forum often documents it and I'm sure that there are many others out there that have stories to tell. Theres no reason why KS, given the team he has around him, cannot go on to be one of those success stories. He is just a horse after all, he has no preconcieved ideas about what his life should be.

I did wonder, from the mention of dressage, if maybe there was a thought that he wouldnt stand up to too much more galloping and jumping? Maybe there is something underlying that none of us are privvy too.

Also, there is a difference between a dressage yard and an event yard. From what I have heard LC's horses get turn out, go hacking, go hunting, have wonderful facilities, a superb back up team of trainers, physios, vets etc, and a varied workload. To think that he will spend hours being drilled around a dressage arena with his head cranked in and 23hrs in his stable is inaccurate. He'll live a life that many of us would love to give our horses, and one, IMO, preferable to staying on a racing yard.


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## teapot (12 December 2012)

Kempton has tweeted to say KS will be there on Boxing Day


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## Fantasy_World (12 December 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			I hope that everyone whinging about poor Kauto and his terrible fate as a dressage horse is heavily involved in rehoming all the "nobody" ex-racehorses who are in desperate need of good homes and facing the distinct possibility of going to the meat man.
		
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Oh yes indeed my mare probably would not have gone to the meat man but the last stud she was at offered to put her down as she had become barren.
I had her reschooled and she is now a hack. She enjoys life with her equine buddies and going out on hacks. 
She has been to two shows in veteran and racehorse classes, finishing placed both times.
She has also done an endurance ride which she loved.
Value wise she would probably fit into the £500 bracket. 
She won on the flat and over hurdles.
I was offered her for free by the owners who were friends. 
Nearly 4 years on and I would not have it any other way. If she ends up one day being unrideable but sound then she will live out her days with me in retirement.
Otherwise if she is in un-manageable pain she will be put to sleep for ethical reasons.
If I had the money I would quite happily take on more and give more ex racers or those that did not make the grade a second chance in life. 
No one wants to see healthy horses going to the meat man but it is inevitable in this climate when people still continue to over breed horses for any discipline!

I support several centres that are involved with the rehab and retraining of racehorses, as well as several well known horse welfare centres. 

My main concern with the Kauto Star issue is due to his age and translating to dressage.
I also feel strongly that the Ditcheat team were not consulted properly about the horse's future especially when they as his carers for the last 8 years or so have been solely responsible for his welfare and training. Smith just paid the bills, like every owner does.

There are plenty of ex racehorse to riding horse stories in the press and charities such as Greatwood that rehab them have publicity through racing, Greatwood hurdle at Cheltenham in November is one such venture.

Check out the TRC and see what they do with ex racers too.

There are also others which do sterling work with these horses.

If Smith had just wanted Kauto to have a worthwhile 'job' after racing he could have either left him at Ditcheat or else found a less well known trainer/rider.
The fact that he has chosen two very high profile people involved in racehorses and dressage/eventing tells me that he is seeking further stardom for the horse.
The horse could have received the best of care at Ditcheat or any other good livery yard that was recommended. 
By sending the horse to who he has does not show that he wants the best for his horse but that he wants his horse to excel in that chosen sphere too.
He is seeking yet more glorification at the expense of his horse. 
The world of dressage and the re-training of racehorses does not need Kauto Star.
This year's olympics has done far more to raise the profile of dressage in the UK and worldwide than anyone could have imagined.
I fear that the egotist which is Mr Smith has made the wrong decision......


As for Hales and Neptune Collonges, he has gone to his daughter Lisa to do dressage then showjumping.
To me John Hales is far more sympathetic owner than Smith will ever be.
Did he choose some high profile trainer for the winner of the Grand National?
No he chose to keep the horse well and truly in the family.
I will never forget the tears he shed for the ill-fated One Man. 

Neptune Collonges going on to do dressage and showjumping with his owners = pride and love.
Kauto Star going on to do dressage and possibly eventing with a high class trainer/rider = greed and self gratification.


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## Scarlett (12 December 2012)

For those of you who object so strongly to Kauto going onto a new yard/life/career can I ask a question? What is it that makes KS so different from your average exracer being trained to another career? Why support horses being retrained but object to this particular one? Is it just how it happened? If he had been taken on by someone else would it have been better?


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## bonny (12 December 2012)

Scarlett said:



			For those of you who object so strongly to Kauto going onto a new yard/life/career can I ask a question? What is it that makes KS so different from your average exracer being trained to another career? Why support horses being retrained but object to this particular one? Is it just how it happened? If he had been taken on by someone else would it have been better?
		
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He's hardly an average exracer ! He was the best, for years and there is no need, none at all that he needs to go and try and be a dressage horse.....Everything about it is wrong, the idea and the way it has been handled.  Paul Nicholls wanted to keep him and should have had his way.  I don't think he should have ever gone anywhere else or to anywhere else.  Like it or not high profile horses become that becuase they are supported and watched by so many and to an extent we become involved with them too....I think Clive Smith should have taken that into account instead of seemingly thinking only of himself.


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## Marydoll (12 December 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			I have had leisure horses for five years, and in all that time they have never had more than a few furlongs at a decent pace,  there are few safe places to gallop and few horses who are fit enough, what most people call a gallop is what racing people call a good canter.
Working in an outline?............. look at all the horses who are automatically put in a flash noseband .... 95% of them.  If too "forward going" they  "need" a gag, if not forward going they need spurs.
Dressage horses?  they have to be bandaged to support limbs. What is that all about?

It is experience: there was a nice PTP horse at our DIY yard "trained" by a guy who had worked in a flat yard for a few weeks, this poor mare had six weeks at grass to fatten her up,  and then six weeks later was getting an hour round the fields, six weeks later she was in a ptp, six weeks later she was shot.
Nothing wrong with her initially, just ignorance and greed. He was warned by someone who had been in racing that she "has a leg", but no,,,,,,, he bashed on and she "broke down" in her next outing.
		
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This horse isnt going to some complete novice who doesnt know what theyre doing, im sure LC is more tha capable of giving him a good pipe opener and im pretty sure the team who care for her horses know how to care for equine athletes


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## dunkley (12 December 2012)

KS is a horse, a racehorse, a bloody good racehorse who became a legend.

Perhaps his owner decided, as is his right, and as he can obviously afford it, to send _his_ horse to those he believed would offer KS the best opportunity to be happy and successful post racing?  By 'successful' I don't mean in terms of prize money or glory, simply a healthy, useful, busy and interesting retirement.  As for 'retirement' - he retired from racing, not life.  
I know nothing of any of the personalities involved, who is 'awkward', who is 'selfish, whatever. But, any Open Days at PN's yard won't have a fraction of the visitors descending without the (prize) draw of the legendary KS.  I should think most visitors to West Lockinge didn't go to see the yard, but to see the other NH legend that was Best Mate.


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## cptrayes (12 December 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			I have had leisure horses for five years, and in all that time they have never had more than a few furlongs at a decent pace
		
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Mine have flat out gallops in their own field for ten minutes at a time some days. Two of them gallop for up to a couple of miles when drag hunting. One never gallops ridden, he is spectacularly uninterested in doing so. 

Just because you have never bothered to find a way to get your horses a good gallop, please do not assume that none of the rest of us do, or that Kauto Star won't.


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## justabob (12 December 2012)

bonny said:



			He's hardly an average exracer ! He was the best, for years and there is no need, none at all that he needs to go and try and be a dressage horse.....Everything about it is wrong, the idea and the way it has been handled.  Paul Nicholls wanted to keep him and should have had his way.  I don't think he should have ever gone anywhere else or to anywhere else.  Like it or not high profile horses become that becuase they are supported and watched by so many and to an extent we become involved with them too....I think Clive Smith should have taken that into account instead of seemingly thinking only of himself.
		
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So bonny, when PN DOESNOT get his way, he tells the owner to take him away now, today. As for Clive Smith only thinking of himself, IMO he is thinking of HIS horse. I dont really think he is going to LC to be made into a dressage horse at all. I think he is going there to be re schooled to do another job. Your post comes across as petulant as Paul Nicholls behaviour in this whole badly managed saga. He is after all Clive Smiths horse, he does not belong to the nation or for that matter Paul Nicholls.


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## paddi22 (12 December 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			I have had leisure horses for five years, and in all that time they have never had more than a few furlongs at a decent pace,  there are few safe places to gallop and few horses who are fit enough, what most people call a gallop is what racing people call a good canter.
		
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so because you can't get a good place to stretch their legs, that means nobody else can obviously?

I plan to event my ISH and he gets out for a good proper gallop regularly, he absolutely loves it. My exracer was down as a dressage horse and he still got a full proper gallop. I (and a lot of people i know) have no hesitation to box down and hire a proper gallops to give them a good run. I think it does them the world of good and would not leave it out of a training schedule. 

Just because you don't or can't, don't label everyone else.

And maybe most people DO know what a proper gallop is - you must hang out with a softer crowd, the irish hunter crowd around me can do a fair gallop when they like.


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## PolarSkye (12 December 2012)

dunkley said:



			KS is a horse, a racehorse, a bloody good racehorse who became a legend.

Perhaps his owner decided, as is his right, and as he can obviously afford it, to send _his_ horse to those he believed would offer KS the best opportunity to be happy and successful post racing?  By 'successful' I don't mean in terms of prize money or glory, simply a healthy, useful, busy and interesting retirement.  As for 'retirement' - he retired from racing, not life.  
I know nothing of any of the personalities involved, who is 'awkward', who is 'selfish, whatever. But, any Open Days at PN's yard won't have a fraction of the visitors descending without the (prize) draw of the legendary KS.  I should think most visitors to West Lockinge didn't go to see the yard, but to see the other NH legend that was Best Mate.
		
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This!

P


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## claracanter (12 December 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			I have had leisure horses for five years, and in all that time they have never had more than a few furlongs at a decent pace,  there are few safe places to gallop and few horses who are fit enough, what most people call a gallop is what racing people call a good canter.
		
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Have a look at LC's website. She has photos of her on the gallops. She lives right near lambourn, the famous home of many NH trainers.


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## Clava (12 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Mine have flat out gallops in their own field for ten minutes at a time some days. Two of them gallop for up to a couple of miles when drag hunting. One never gallops ridden, he is spectacularly uninterested in doing so. 

Just because you have never bothered to find a way to get your horses a good gallop, please do not assume that none of the rest of us do, or that Kauto Star won't.
		
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Exactly, we have hit 39 mph when out hacking and I think that is a reasonable gallop!


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## Drakerath (12 December 2012)

This thread has highlighted to me how selfish racing 'consumers' can be.

You talk of this legend horse whose legacy as a legend should be left untouched. He might be a legend in your eyes but why don't you all stop and think what is best for the horse not what's best for YOU?  Horses with half a brain don't like doing nothing all day - they like parties and variety in their lives!

Also it would be nice to see you all care about the thousands of other racehorses coming out of racing (and into pedigre chum!). You only seemingly care when a horse has won money for you. 

So ask a young, sound horse what they would rather do when aged 12 (which in normal horse circles is a horse's prime, not the age to send them off to the rubbish heap to merely plod out with strings of horses going up and down, up and down, up and down gallops, day after day after day after monotonous day). It was KS's lucky day he escaped being the yard's nag.

Ask this horse with half a brain whether it wants to spend the larger part of its life going up and down the same gallops every day for the rest of its life OR do something different most days of the week (as LC will do - she is an event rider who spends a third of her time doing dressage not all) - hacking, schooling, competitions at various venues? LC isnt some conservative dressage rider. If KS shows aptitude for a new career, then she will not shy away from adrenaline rushes!! 

It was KS's lucky day the day he left for LC's yard. A lucky escape indeed out of the monotony of being Other People's Plaything. HE is going to continue to have a life, not a sorry excuse with his brain turning to mush.


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## faerie666 (12 December 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			You are correct, and incorrect:
There are plenty of ex racing TB s who could be re trained, they sell for £500 or less, and some may do well.
Of all the horses I rode in racing  [1000 +/-], I rode only one which could have competed at dressage [it was not a good jumper btw],  
*Funny, I have ridden a similar amount of horses to you, and I'd say quite a few of them would have done dressage with a bit of work. In fact, the yard I'm at at the moment has about 25 horses in work, and I recon 6 or 7 of them could go out and do a respectable prelim test with about a months work*
I also rode Viking Flagship occasionally, who was comparable to Kauto Star.......... he enjoyed his retirement as trainers hack, perfectly happy, stayed in the number one box, and did his job on a day to day basis, leading youngsters, hacking out newbies, popping fences, pinging hurdles, pefectly happy.
I have worked in some good  NH racing stables, and most horses like being there, obviously some don't.
But they are allowed to walk out naturally on a long rein, not kept "on the bit" and asked to do "movements", OK,  when in work, they have to do a bit of hard work every so often, but really,  it is an ideal life if they are in the right stable.
In a competative dressage yard he will never go out to grass, probably never allowed to walk naturally.
In NH racing, he has 3-5 months in summer on grass., and is stabled when it is cold and wet, hacked out in comapny, not asked to submit all the time, and no annoyingperson on top concerned to make him look "collected"
		
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What makes you think in a dressage yard he won't be allowed to go out to grass, or walk out on a long rein? As far as I know, most dressage horses are warmed up/cooled down by walking on a long rein, as well as getting breaks during a schooling session.



Miss L Toe said:



			Some racehorses go hunting to freshen them up. The main aim is to win races, and if that means training them out of a field then that will be done, if it means going to pony club, then so be it. If they need to be hacked they will be hacked, if they need to pop logs, then so be it, if they like hacking out, they get hacked, please do not assume all racehorses are treated the same.
*Maybe you should stop assuming all dressage horses are treated the same...*
Most yards I have been in have Sunday as day of rest for those in work, that means they get put on walker or turned out in a paddock, only those racing on Monday get a proper 60- 90 mins of excercise. The day after they  "work" they get to hack out round fields and so on.  I have never ever worked in a yard which does the same thing every day.
*I've worked at quite a few racing yards over the last 15 years, and TBH, the ones that turn out or have a varied routine are the exception, especially at big (100+ horses) yards*
If PN thought he would be better in a dressage yard, he would have suggested it. If the owner went to a top eventer, would she say...... "no I don't want him............. " "[PS do you pay cash?]"
THe horseis middle aged in human terms , it is too late for him to start gymnastics.
		
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Miss L Toe said:



			The whole point of these posts is that PN and his professional, very experienced staff have enough knowledge of the horse to know what he would like to do, and where he would like to be.
If CS had had any sense he would have negotiated with PN to have a trial at another yard, and to return him if things did not work out.
		
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For all we know this is what CS had planned to do, until PN spat his dummy out and told him to move the horse that same day...



Kauto Star will either settle into whatever new career he gets chosen for, or he won't. We won't know until they try.

I for one hope he does, I think it would be lovely to see him out and about doing something new, and I'm sure he'll get the best care in his new home, even if he doesn't make it to the next olympics.


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## MadisonBelle (12 December 2012)

Have you seen the photo of Kauto with Laura having a trot earlier today? He looks FANTASTIC! Very relaxed.........

I've been a fan of his for years and was delighted to hear he had gone to an Event rider and to have Yogi as his new trainer...... Seriously, would you really turn down the opportunity to have Laura school your horse with Yogi as your eyes???

Had no idea at the time about the "row" between Owner and PN so put that aside and Kauto really is in a win/win situation....... If he hates it I have no doubt that plans will be changed but he may very well thrive! He will certainly still be treated as a winner and always will be. He seems the type to thrive on work. PN himself sad he could not just be retired as such so come on guys, lets give Laura and Yogi a chance...... They're not exactly Joe Blogs are they  Yogi himself is a legend and I'm absolutely sure if the horse hates it he will be straight on the phone to Clive S letting him know. (Yogi that is not Kauto)

As an aside he is probably getting more attention at Laura's than her top Eventers


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## dunkley (12 December 2012)

It's got to be less frustrating for him than Eamonn Holmes' suggestion of sending him to stud


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## xspiralx (12 December 2012)

Drakerath said:



			This thread has highlighted to me how selfish racing 'consumers' can be.

You talk of this legend horse whose legacy as a legend should be left untouched. He might be a legend in your eyes but why don't you all stop and think what is best for the horse not what's best for YOU?  Horses with half a brain don't like doing nothing all day - they like parties and variety in their lives!

Also it would be nice to see you all care about the thousands of other racehorses coming out of racing (and into pedigre chum!). You only seemingly care when a horse has won money for you. 

So ask a young, sound horse what they would rather do when aged 12 (which in normal horse circles is a horse's prime, not the age to send them off to the rubbish heap to merely plod out with strings of horses going up and down, up and down, up and down gallops, day after day after day after monotonous day). It was KS's lucky day he escaped being the yard's nag.

Ask this horse with half a brain whether it wants to spend the larger part of its life going up and down the same gallops every day for the rest of its life OR do something different most days of the week (as LC will do - she is an event rider who spends a third of her time doing dressage not all) - hacking, schooling, competitions at various venues? LC isnt some conservative dressage rider. If KS shows aptitude for a new career, then she will not shy away from adrenaline rushes!! 

It was KS's lucky day the day he left for LC's yard. A lucky escape indeed out of the monotony of being Other People's Plaything. HE is going to continue to have a life, not a sorry excuse with his brain turning to mush.
		
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I think you've hit the mark spot on really.


Everyone who has a problem with it, isn't thinking of what is best for the horse. They are thinking only about their perception of him, as an untouchable racing legend, 'too good' for the retraining that so many 'average' racehorses excel in.

But to KS - he is just a horse. He is a fabulous horse, but his needs and wants are no different to any other horse - he isn't some higher being who would find doing an unaffiliated dressage test some kind of humiliation.

12 is no age at all, and KS is an intelligent athlete. I am sure he will excel at a new challenge, and he is under the care of extremely experienced horse people. He is far luckier than millions of other horses that get chucked through the sales each year for a few hundred when they stop winning.


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## seabsicuit2 (12 December 2012)

I wonder if KS's soundness and general health is tricky to manage. No one can keep a horse sounder or healthier than PN and his team. It takes years and years to learn how to manage individual horses, learn all the whims and ways of how their bodies tick and work, how to prevent certain muscular issues occuring, how to manage them, what therapists/vets to manage them and particular manipulation/theraputic techniques etc etc, when to push the exercise to work through particular stiffness or when not to push it.

All these thousands of little details- which take an eternity to learn- could mean that KS is likely to not thrive in another yard, no matter how professional they are. Could be why the team at Ditcheat are so upset?


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## Drakerath (12 December 2012)

seabsicuit2 said:



			I wonder if KS's soundness and general health is tricky to manage. No one can keep a horse sounder or healthier than PN and his team. It takes years and years to learn how to manage individual horses, learn all the whims and ways of how their bodies tick and work, how to prevent certain muscular issues occuring, how to manage them, what therapists/vets to manage them and particular manipulation/theraputic techniques etc etc, when to push the exercise to work through particular stiffness or when not to push it.

All these thousands of little details- which take an eternity to learn- could mean that KS is likely to not thrive in another yard, no matter how professional they are. Could be why the team at Ditcheat are so upset?

Click to expand...

Racing is about the most punishing activity any horse can do, even if it is bred for it. No wonder that trainers spend a fortune on "therapists, manipulation" and what not. When a sport goes through horses faster than I get through Pinot Grigio, you know you are pushing a species up to (and beyond) its natural limit.

Every thought why other equine displines don't need to rely on "therapists" like racing trainers do? ..... They aren't punishing the equine body in the same way, that's why.

KS is going to be taken back to basics and to have his body made strong and supple. 
The irony is that he won't need expensive poncey "therapists" to right his ills because he will be given the opportunity to build muscles in places he has never had the chance to. He will strengthen naturally and will no long need props to keep his body on the road. Nor will his body be subjected to extreme pressure (like racing). 

He stands a better chance making it into a real retirement (like over 20 years old) if he is schooled and what not over the next 8 years rather than just hacked up to the gallops and back  7 x 365 x 8 times.

Oh and PLENTY of people in this country are capable of looking after horses as well as PN or a myriad of other horsey people out there. Stop putting individuals (both horses AND people) on pedastals. It's ridiculous and a tad ignorant. I'm sure PN himself would readily admit he does not know it all. 



A


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## Maesfen (12 December 2012)

I purposely haven't read any replies and know I will get shot down in flames but I can't help feeling very sorry for the horse going from an adrenaline fuelled fun filled career to boring old stressage; such a shame for him - and I would say that no matter who he was going to.  Such a shame he can't do a Denman whether that be through soundness issues or his owner doesn't like it (I don't know which it is but I presume it's something of the sort, I wouldn't imagine PN actually wanting a boring life for him).


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## oldvic (12 December 2012)

I am sure KS needs managing. PN used to be full of criticism for how Best Mate was nurtured with few races a season but his tuned suddenly changed half way through KS's career and said that he didn't want to run him often. He had 4 crashing falls and hasn't always looked good behind. Clifford Baker states in the Racing Post today that he is not a good mover which covers a multitude of sins!
I am not Paul Nicholls number one fan but many of his old favourites have gone to do other things. There has to be a reason why he was so adamant that he feels this one would not adapt to or cope with another career.
For those that think all horses must have variety, remember they don't think like us and some are stressed by doing different things. We might think it is monotonous to do the same thing every day but some highly strung horses are much happier if they know what they are going to do. 
He is in the best of hands so his welfare is assured but I still find it an uncomfortable situation.


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## Drakerath (12 December 2012)

Maesfen said:



			I purposely haven't read any replies and know I will get shot down in flames but I can't help feeling very sorry for the horse going from an adrenaline fuelled fun filled career to boring old stressage; such a shame for him - and I would say that no matter who he was going to.  Such a shame he can't do a Denman whether that be through soundness issues or his owner doesn't like it (I don't know which it is but I presume it's something of the sort, I wouldn't imagine PN actually wanting a boring life for him).
		
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Do you think his owner has purposeful sought out a "boring life" then? What an odd comment!
I also think you are guilty of looking at this whole situation through your own human eyes and not those of a horse.

In all this, we should be looking to give Kauto Star the highest quality of life over his remaining years, which should be many.

Will his brain, body and sould be best served hacking up the same road every day for the rest of his life to the nearby gallops, from where he can watch _other_ horses get fit and get loaded up and taken to parties
OR
get reschooled in dressage and since he has been placed with EVENT rider Laura Collect (and not a pure dressage yard) it is not unreasonable to assume that KS may well be exposed to other disciplines IF he takes to the reschooling part first
OR
something else????

From personal experience, the transition from racehorse to hunt horse is possibly the hardest to make (umm bar show jumper perhaps!). When they do make it, they are AMAZING but hunting can blow the brain of many-a-racehorse and it can be too tough on their legs (if they have raced , they may well already have leg strains). Thorughbreds aren't always the toughest.

I would imagine that placing KS with Laura Collect is a bit like a Harry Potter Sorting Hat. They are going to see how things go and where his future may best lay FOR HIM - not for the punters who want to remember the past by in freezing him in time "as a racehorse". KS is no longer a racehorse and I think he has done enough to warrant a little time and effort giving him a chance at another LIFE.
I don't count hacking up to the gallops and back as a life. That is for old nags who can't do much else. KS is much, much more than some glorified mickey-mouse mascot intended to bring fame to the yard he has retired in.
Perhaps *that* is why the staff are, in part, so sour???? Perhaps they feel robbed? I don't doubt their love for him but to deny him a fulfilling life from here on here smacks of sour grapes if you ask me.


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## be positive (12 December 2012)

Maesfen said:



			I purposely haven't read any replies and know I will get shot down in flames but I can't help feeling very sorry for the horse going from an adrenaline fuelled fun filled career to boring old stressage; such a shame for him - and I would say that no matter who he was going to.  Such a shame he can't do a Denman whether that be through soundness issues or his owner doesn't like it (I don't know which it is but I presume it's something of the sort, I wouldn't imagine PN actually wanting a boring life for him).
		
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His life at Ditcheat, apart from racing days, consisted of walking down the road, going up the hill gallop, back down the road up the gallop 3 times a day, almost every day, the odd spin on the flat gallop, or over some jumps in the arena, no hacking in fields, it is not like Newmarket or Lambourn with a real variety of places to go. 
He, like all the horses there, lives a rather dull life, without the racing being kept in a training yard where he would be kept fit but never using that fitness would he not be bored, having a new yard, varied hacking and consistent work should keep body and mind occupied for many years.


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## Miss L Toe (12 December 2012)

Drakerath said:



			Do you think his owner has purposeful sought out a "boring life" then? What an odd comment!
I also think you are guilty of looking at this whole situation through your own human eyes and not those of a horse.

In all this, we should be looking to give Kauto Star the highest quality of life over his remaining years, which should be many.

Will his brain, body and sould be best served hacking up the same road every day for the rest of his life to the nearby gallops, from where he can watch _other_ horses get fit and get loaded up and taken to parties
OR
get reschooled in dressage and since he has been placed with EVENT rider Laura Collect (and not a pure dressage yard) it is not unreasonable to assume that KS may well be exposed to other disciplines IF he takes to the reschooling part first
OR
something else????

From personal experience, the transition from racehorse to hunt horse is possibly the hardest to make (umm bar show jumper perhaps!). When they do make it, they are AMAZING but hunting can blow the brain of many-a-racehorse and it can be too tough on their legs (if they have raced , they may well already have leg strains). Thorughbreds aren't always the toughest.

I would imagine that placing KS with Laura Collect is a bit like a Harry Potter Sorting Hat. They are going to see how things go and where his future may best lay FOR HIM - not for the punters who want to remember the past by in freezing him in time "as a racehorse". KS is no longer a racehorse and I think he has done enough to warrant a little time and effort giving him a chance at another LIFE.
I don't count hacking up to the gallops and back as a life. That is for old nags who can't do much else. KS is much, much more than some glorified mickey-mouse mascot intended to bring fame to the yard he has retired in.
Perhaps *that* is why the staff are, in part, so sour???? Perhaps they feel robbed? I don't doubt their love for him but to deny him a fulfilling life from here on here smacks of sour grapes if you ask me.
		
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Yes, well pretty clear you don't actually work with racehorses. We used to send some of ours hunting, not after re-training, but with a professional jock up top. This is a long standing method of keeping them sweet. I used to ride Diet, a flat racer, all he ever saw was the racecourse at Ayr, and Hamilton,  and occasional  hacks on the roads, and he was perfectly happy, ran in handicaps till he was in his teens!


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## Caol Ila (12 December 2012)

Maesfen said:



			I purposely haven't read any replies and know I will get shot down in flames but I can't help feeling very sorry for the horse going from an adrenaline fuelled fun filled career to boring old stressage; such a shame for him - and I would say that no matter who he was going to.  Such a shame he can't do a Denman whether that be through soundness issues or his owner doesn't like it (I don't know which it is but I presume it's something of the sort, I wouldn't imagine PN actually wanting a boring life for him).
		
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Surely by that logic, you feel sorry for every OTTB who makes their ammie owners very happy bimbling around lower level dressage tests.  Tell that to OTTB owners who ride dressage.


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## be positive (12 December 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Yes, well pretty clear you don't actually work with racehorses.
		
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I have already described KS's daily exercise routine, it may not be how your racehorses were worked but the walk on the road up the gallops is rarely changed, it is boring for the horses, the riders also look bored most of the time.


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## Drakerath (12 December 2012)

oldvic said:



			I am sure KS needs managing. PN used to be full of criticism for how Best Mate was nurtured with few races a season but his tuned suddenly changed half way through KS's career and said that he didn't want to run him often. He had 4 crashing falls and hasn't always looked good behind. Clifford Baker states in the Racing Post today that he is not a good mover which covers a multitude of sins!
I am not Paul Nicholls number one fan but many of his old favourites have gone to do other things. There has to be a reason why he was so adamant that he feels this one would not adapt to or cope with another career.
For those that think all horses must have variety, remember they don't think like us and some are stressed by doing different things. We might think it is monotonous to do the same thing every day but some highly strung horses are much happier if they know what they are going to do. 
He is in the best of hands so his welfare is assured but I still find it an uncomfortable situation.
		
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Well, if he does have soundness issues or muscle strains, then some time spent schooling can only help him, even if he then has to revert to just being a yard nag. At least he was given the _opportunity_ of another life. 

We should not write KS off without giving him that chance should we? That would be unfair on him. No 12 year old should be consigned to the slag heap without having a crack at another more interesting existence. It is for KS to decide whether he enjoys the variety of being in an event yard. 
If he genuinely does not cope with it, then the owner can have him back to retire. I hardly think a life of hacking up the road and back at Ditcheat is one to write home about and other avenues should be explored first.


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## Drakerath (12 December 2012)

No I do have experience. I used to ride out for a yard and now stick to hunting and eventing, but two of my horses are ex 'chasers that I have converted.


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## Maesfen (12 December 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			Surely by that logic, you feel sorry for every OTTB who makes their ammie owners very happy bimbling around lower level dressage tests.  Tell that to OTTB owners who ride dressage.
		
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I do feel sorry for any horse which has to endure stressage as their only form of work; doesn't matter whether it's a TB or a cob, all the same to me but to a horse, never ending circles in a school must be boring even if it isn't for their riders.


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## Caol Ila (12 December 2012)

Maesfen said:



			I do feel sorry for any horse which has to endure stressage as their only form of work; doesn't matter whether it's a TB or a cob, all the same to me but to a horse, never ending circles in a school must be boring even if it isn't for their riders.
		
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As Kauto's going to an event yard, I doubt it will be his only form of work.  I agree with you that horses should have variety and dressage horses should be cross-trained with jumping, hacking out, hunting, or whatever else their owner fancies.  Many are.  The ones I've met (we're not talking professional yards here; just average amateur owners riding or showing at lower levels) who don't get to hack out are owned by people with confidence issues, who are terrified of leaving the safe confines of the school.  Again, not a problem Kauto will have.


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## oldvic (12 December 2012)

Drakerath said:



			Racing is about the most punishing activity any horse can do, even if it is bred for it. No wonder that trainers spend a fortune on "therapists, manipulation" and what not. When a sport goes through horses faster than I get through Pinot Grigio, you know you are pushing a species up to (and beyond) its natural limit.

Every thought why other equine displines don't need to rely on "therapists" like racing trainers do? ..... They aren't punishing the equine body in the same way, that's why.

KS is going to be taken back to basics and to have his body made strong and supple. 
The irony is that he won't need expensive poncey "therapists" to right his ills because he will be given the opportunity to build muscles in places he has never had the chance to. He will strengthen naturally and will no long need props to keep his body on the road. Nor will his body be subjected to extreme pressure (like racing). 

He stands a better chance making it into a real retirement (like over 20 years old) if he is schooled and what not over the next 8 years rather than just hacked up to the gallops and back  7 x 365 x 8 times.

Oh and PLENTY of people in this country are capable of looking after horses as well as PN or a myriad of other horsey people out there. Stop putting individuals (both horses AND people) on pedastals. It's ridiculous and a tad ignorant. I'm sure PN himself would readily admit he does not know it all. 



A
		
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Many competition riders use therapists as much if not more than racehorse trainers and dressage is known to be one of the hardest disciplines on the horse's body. There is a limit to how much suppleness he can develop at his age but just because he isn't strong in a dressage way doesn't mean that he has no muscle, he just has galloping muscles not carrying muscles. It is not wrong, it is different.


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## PolarSkye (13 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			He's not going to be her eventer, so she's probably going to get fed up riding him. He dropped Clifford last week - poor horse being wheeled round an indoor school first thing this morning before he's even had a day or so to settle in.
		
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1)  How do you KNOW she won't end up eventing him?  If she finds he has an aptitude, even at unaffiliated level, what a fun second career for him.
2)  How do you KNOW she'll get fed up riding him?  She might really like riding him . . . and I'm pretty sure CS will have sent KS to her yard on condition that only certain people do ride him - given how valuable he is.
3)  What's so horrible about a) riding a new horse as soon as possible; and b) riding in an indoor school?  Some racing yards so actually school their youngsters indoors - I know this b/c a friend of mine/fellow livery rescues and rehabilitates OTTs.

Seriously, I don't understand all this flapping . . . not to mention all the speculation.  At the end of the day, the horse belongs to CS . . . not PN, not you and not me.  

P


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Drakerath said:



			Every thought why other equine displines don't need to rely on "therapists" like racing trainers do?
		
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No I have never wondered that, because they DO

All the top showjumpers, dressage horses and  eventers make extensive use of "therapists".


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## Marydoll (13 December 2012)

My horse events, mainly rc and low level affilliated, and i use therapists, for her and me  nothing wrong in that


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## Penniless (13 December 2012)

Daffodil said:



			Purely selfishly, I hope he's still going to Kempton on Boxing Day.   I've booked tickets specially and its a long way to go if he's not going to be there.
		
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Just announced on radio -he is not now parading.


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## PolarSkye (13 December 2012)

Penniless said:



			Just announced on radio -he is not now parading.
		
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Good.  If he's being retired from racing life and embarking on training in a different discipline, then he needs to stay away from the track to keep his head engaged in his new way of life.  

P


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## Daffodil (13 December 2012)

Inevitable.   Very sad that his fans have been deprived of the chance to see him and bid farewell to him on the racecourse.

Probably just as well though.   It wouldn't have been quite the same with the new team, supportive of them as I am.  

Could all have been avoided if PN hadn't thrown his toys out of the pram when he did.

And they've renamed the Feltham in his honour.... bit of a balls up all round really.


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## Goldenstar (13 December 2012)

I personally don't think it's a given that racehorses enjoy parading but it would have benn nice for his fans to see have a good bye party that's probally down to PN and his team if the had kept the horse until boxing day he could have done the parade and then quietly gone off to his new home in the new year but heyho I doult the horse cares a jot.


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## claracanter (13 December 2012)

I'm a huge racing fan, worked in a racing yard many moons ago and have rehomed ex racers BUT I think racing needs to get it's act together.
What with Frankie last week and now this very public falling out over KS, it could undo all the good work done by Frankel for the image of racing in the UK.


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

be positive said:



			I have already described KS's daily exercise routine, it may not be how your racehorses were worked but the walk on the road up the gallops is rarely changed, it is boring for the horses, the riders also look bored most of the time.
		
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Do you have photos or evidence to back this up? 
Say a copy of Nicholls's training diary? 
If not then stop banging on about how you believe he was trained unless you saw every move this horse made at Ditcheat.


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I personally don't think it's a given that racehorses enjoy parading but it would have benn nice for his fans to see have a good bye party that's probally down to PN and his team if the had kept the horse until boxing day he could have done the parade and then quietly gone off to his new home in the new year but heyho I doult the horse cares a jot.
		
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You obviously don't see many stallion parades at racecourses then do you?
They were ex racers and they prance around the ring proud and excited to be there.
Tell me Frankel did not enjoy his spin in front of the crowds? 
Tell me Kauto Star did not enjoy his appearance at Haydock?
How exuberantly did Dessie used to power down the course, even in his later years.
They loved it, they were special horses.
Kauto has nothing more to prove.
He is not a stallion so he cannot pass on any of his genes.
I will say this and I will say this again.
The reason he has been sent to a top rider with a top trainer is to seek further stardom for the horse. 
Why? 
Why does Kauto need to excel in another discipline?
Tell me who is Smith doing this for exactly, him or the horse? 
The horse owes him nothing financially or publicly as it has helped him into the limelight of the press on many an occasion.
However his owner clearly feels this is not enough and he wants Kauto to bow out in style.
No matter what the cost to the horse, he wants to see him winning again.
Funny how some people can clearly not accept a retirement from high level competitions.
Kauto could have done many, many equine disciplines to keep his mind active.
He would not have got bored at Nicholls.
Racing is all he has ever known..........
An outstanding racehorse is all he will ever be perceived as by his TRUE racing fans.


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			No I have never wondered that, because they DO

All the top showjumpers, dressage horses and  eventers make extensive use of "therapists".
		
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This ^^^^^^^^^


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## Amymay (13 December 2012)

No matter what the cost to the horse, he wants to see him winning again.
		
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I'm not sure that's the case actually.  I think it's probably more to wanting him to have the best opportunity of turning his hand to another job.


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

PolarExpress said:



			1)  How do you KNOW she won't end up eventing him?  If she finds he has an aptitude, even at unaffiliated level, what a fun second career for him.
2)  How do you KNOW she'll get fed up riding him?  She might really like riding him . . . and I'm pretty sure CS will have sent KS to her yard on condition that only certain people do ride him - given how valuable he is.
3)  What's so horrible about a) riding a new horse as soon as possible; and b) riding in an indoor school?  Some racing yards so actually school their youngsters indoors - I know this b/c a friend of mine/fellow livery rescues and rehabilitates OTTs.

Seriously, I don't understand all this flapping . . . not to mention all the speculation.  At the end of the day, the horse belongs to CS . . . not PN, not you and not me.  

P
		
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Jumping a horse like Kauto over solid obstacles - have you even watched the horse? Christ, he had a horrendous fall at home schooling with people who know him inside out -  the way he operates he'd be dangerous to event ............

LC is driven by ambition, KS will not fulfil any of that, except the short term flurry of interest in her getting her name into the public domain. It's a well played publicity stunt that can only backfire on the horse. 
She has owners in the yard who will want her to give their EVENT horses full time attention. He will necessarily take a back seat very shortly. 

I have ridden enough racehorses in training and in rehab to know that some will never settle to a dressage career. It's wrong to put a square peg in a round hole (thank you for that analogy, whoever I got it from  ) because we want to. 

Loads of racehorses go indoors at some point, but they're not schooled the way a horse being tuned up for dressage will be, they still hack and half speed and gallop. 

If you genuinely believes ownership entitles people to do whatever they want with a horse, then the welfare bodies have no hope, nor those advising against badly bitted horses, or underfed horses etc. 

It's the WRONG decision for that particular horse given that he had* no need to be moved* as a home for life was offered. It's the whim of the owner to stick two fingers up to Ditcheat, that's all.

ETA - so he's now not parading? That's a swift turnaround from yesterday ...............


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

amymay said:



			I'm not sure that's the case actually.  I think it's probably more to wanting him to have the best opportunity of turning his hand to another job.
		
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But I will say this again, why does he need to?
Why does Smith want his horse to continue to win competitions. 
Can he not accept Kauto for what he is, what he was, which was a superb National Hunt chaser.
True he did not win an Irish National but he was perhaps the closest horse we have seen since Desert Orchid for his ability to win at the top level in a variety of distances.


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## Amymay (13 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Why does Smith want his horse to continue to win competitions.
		
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Does he?


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## Goldenstar (13 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			But I will say this again, why does he need to?
Why does Smith want his horse to continue to win competitions. 
Can he not accept Kauto for what he is, what he was, which was a superb National Hunt chaser.
True he did not win an Irish National but he was perhaps the closest horse we have seen since Desert Orchid for his ability to win at the top level in a variety of distances.
		
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Do we know CS wants HIS horse to win competions ?
No 
We just know it been sent to an amazing trainer and a very good rider for assessment and retraining that's all.


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

Of course he has...... read the comments from the vile Mr Smith in today's Post and see if you all still agree with the REAL reason he has sent the horse where he has.
The horse is too good to be a hack.... reading between the lines, the horse can still win ME competitions and praise.


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

ATR have just said he is parading at Kempton....


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## Scarlett (13 December 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Do we know CS wants HIS horse to win competions ?
No 
We just know it been sent to an amazing trainer and a very good rider for assessment and retraining that's all.
		
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Exactly... all I see is the owner giving the horse the best possible chance at a career after racing by putting him in the hands of a superb professional rider, one of the worlds best trainer with excellent facilities and superb back up team to begin his re-education. No one has mentioned winning anything, no one has even mentioned him competing from the things I have read.


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## Amymay (13 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Of course he has...... read the comments from the vile Mr Smith in today's Post and see if you all still agree with the REAL reason he has sent the horse where he has.
The horse is too good to be a hack.... reading between the lines, the horse can still win ME competitions and praise.
		
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Can't read the Post online.  Will check it out later today.


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Jumping a horse like Kauto over solid obstacles - have you even watched the horse? Christ, he had a horrendous fall at home schooling with people who know him inside out -  the way he operates he'd be dangerous to event ............

LC is driven by ambition, KS will not fulfil any of that, except the short term flurry of interest in her getting her name into the public domain. It's a well played publicity stunt that can only backfire on the horse. 
She has owners in the yard who will want her to give their EVENT horses full time attention. He will necessarily take a back seat very shortly. 

I have ridden enough racehorses in training and in rehab to know that some will never settle to a dressage career. It's wrong to put a square peg in a round hole (thank you for that analogy, whoever I got it from  ) because we want to. 

Loads of racehorses go indoors at some point, but they're not schooled the way a horse being tuned up for dressage will be, they still hack and half speed and gallop. 

If you genuinely believes ownership entitles people to do whatever they want with a horse, then the welfare bodies have no hope, nor those advising against badly bitted horses, or underfed horses etc. 

It's the WRONG decision for that particular horse given that he had* no need to be moved* as a home for life was offered. It's the whim of the owner to stick two fingers up to Ditcheat, that's all.
		
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Very well said!


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

amymay said:



			Can't read the Post online.  Will check it out later today.
		
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If you can see the website then the story is on there in the news section so no need to buy the paper or buy the download version.


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## Amymay (13 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			If you can see the website then the story is on there in the news section so no need to buy the paper or buy the download version.
		
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Mmm, it would let me read page 1, but not go on to page 5 to read the rest of the story without subscribing and paying ££.


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## Drakerath (13 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			But I will say this again, why does he need to?
Why does Smith want his horse to continue to win competitions. 
Can he not accept Kauto for what he is, what he was, which was a superb National Hunt chaser.
True he did not win an Irish National but he was perhaps the closest horse we have seen since Desert Orchid for his ability to win at the top level in a variety of distances.
		
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Fantasay World,
That makes you look delusional.
KS was a superb chaser. Agreed. He is also a 12 year old horse with a brain and a desire to do well, is he not?
You remind me of Damien Hirst with his odd desires to cut animal in half so he can savour them in that state. Why do you want to freeze KS in "time" and force him to have a dull life hacking. He is a horse not a God. *You* might see him as a God. *He* sees himself as a horse and horses like that usually enjoy competing and using thier brain and body in all sorts of ways.
Do you even have horses of your own ? You appear to lack any ability to empathise with this horse. 

Ask yourself if you would want to take any of your own horses (if you have them), one that is 12 years old and is fit and well, one that loves life and loves competitions/parties out, and ask yourself whether it is fair to that horse to leave it plodding up and down a nearby lane everyday for the rest of its life?

I'm not saying it would have been cruel to leave KS at PN's yard because he would have been pampered with _therapists_  but it would possibly be a less fulfilling life for the horse.

Surely by offering KS a chance to enjoy another way of life (be it low key dressage, be it show jumping, eventing, hunting - whatever the WORLD CLASS trainer YB, WORLD CLASS rider LC and his owner , decide KS is best suited too.

No one is saying KS is going to be jumping round Badminton ever or doing piaffe everyday from here on in. He is going somewhere to be given the chance to try his hand at something new, that is all. He is being given a chance. Pity the selfish racing punters who want to deny him some fun in his retirement because it might spoil _their_ memories of him. How about you turn your attention to the other ex race horses left to rot.
As I said before, I only wish the other horses who finish racing were given just a fraction of the same attention as KS. It is abysmal how you racing lot only care for the horses that win. You don't give a stuff about the thousands of others who upon not winning enough cash for you at the bookies, are fit only to go to Pedigree Chum. 

If you ridden out in race yards AND you have ridden in an event yard, you will know just where horses get more variety in their life and where you would want a horse you loved to spend their time.


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## Scarlett (13 December 2012)

This RP piece FW?
http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd

My understanding of the English language must be poorer than I ever thought as I can see nothing indicated there to insinuate that he wants the horse to go out and win him glory or praise? In fact he states that he would like to spend more time with him....

He said; ''I'm sure Clifford Baker would do a wonderful job and he'd be lovely for him but I always thought I was the owner. I didn't see him enough anyway because I'm 100 miles away. As the owner I'm entitled to some time with him."

Im sorry but Mr Smith let us all be part of his wonderful horses story, it was him who owned him all those years and let us in. How dare anyone deny him his chance to see the horse go live a good life now the horse is retired. 

Very few racehorses make money, without owners like him who take the chances and spend their money people like us would never get to know these horses, we should be thanking him for the last 8 years, not calling him names.


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## Drakerath (13 December 2012)

I dare say with a 'proper' rider on KS's back and some schooling under his belt, he would be a lot less likely to take the crashing falls he had when being ridden by stable jocks.

I don't mean disrespect by this but anyone in this industry knows that stable jocks are great at what they do (race riding and (race) schooling) but they are not in a position to (dressage) school and balance horses because it just isn't needed and thus not a priority when all a horse needs to do is bascially go fast and stay upright whilst taking on some brush fences.

To take on an event course, a horse NEEDS to have been balanced/schooled and have a stronger body all over.

LC is in a position to do this if it is within KS's ability. It may not work - not all racehorses can convert but it's a darn sight more likely to with a rider like LC on his back not a race rider.

It's not on to deny a horse a chance because you want to damn him on the basis of "what ifs" and in the pursuit of holding on to your own memories of past races. Letting him move on does not change his past or his achievements.


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## Daffodil (13 December 2012)

Well said Scarlett.    I've never reported a post on here before but came mighty close with FW's earlier post calling Mr Smith some pretty unpleasant names.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

I can't see why people think it would be a better life for him to stay in a racing yard. If my hunter's disappointed face is anything to go by every time I load anyone but him into the lorry, then the last thing a highly competitive animal like Kauto Star would want is to be stuck at home every time anyone else went out to race.


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## Amymay (13 December 2012)

Scarlett said:



			This RP piece FW?
http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd

My understanding of the English language must be poorer than I ever thought as I can see nothing indicated there to insinuate that he wants the horse to go out and win him glory or praise?
		
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Thanks for the link.

Can't see, either, where it says about the horse going on to win for him


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I can't see why people think it would be a better life for him to stay in a racing yard. If my hunter's disappointed face is anything to go by every time I load anyone but him into the lorry, then the last thing a highly competitive animal like Kauto Star would want is to be stuck at home every time anyone else went out to race.
		
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Kauto Star UKs race runnings
Dec 2004 to Dec 2005 raced  4 times
March 2006 to March 2007 raced 7 times
Oct 2007 to 1st November 2008 raced 7 times
22nd November 2008 to 21st November 2009 raced 4 times
26th December 2009 to 6th November 2010 raced 3 times 
15th Jan 2011 to March 2012 ( 14 month period) raced 6 times

This ^^^^^^ plus a few racecourse gallops 
Compared to the number of times a lorry leaves Ditcheat on a daily basis I would not have thought Kauto would miss the lorry leaving that much.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Kauto Star UKs race runnings
Dec 2004 to Dec 2005 raced  4 times
March 2006 to March 2007 raced 7 times
Oct 2007 to 1st November 2008 raced 7 times
22nd November 2008 to 21st November 2009 raced 4 times
26th December 2009 to 6th November 2010 raced 3 times 
15th Jan 2011 to March 2012 ( 14 month period) raced 6 times

This ^^^^^^ plus a few racecourse gallops 
Compared to the number of times a lorry leaves Ditcheat on a daily basis I would not have thought Kauto would miss the lorry leaving that much.
		
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He'll know it's never him in that lorry except to open a supermarket or plod round in tiny circles at some parade of champions. The one I saw at the Grand National, they all looked bored witless.


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## Daffodil (13 December 2012)

Laura Collett has just said on her Twitter page on her website that Kauto WILL be at Kempton on Boxing Day.


Hooray!!!!


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

Drakerath said:



			I dare say with a 'proper' rider on KS's back and some schooling under his belt, he would be a lot less likely to take the crashing falls he had when being ridden by stable jocks.

I don't mean disrespect by this but anyone in this industry knows that stable jocks are great at what they do (race riding and (race) schooling) but they are not in a position to (dressage) school and balance horses because it just isn't needed and thus not a priority when all a horse needs to do is bascially go fast and stay upright whilst taking on some brush fences.

To take on an event course, a horse NEEDS to have been balanced/schooled and have a stronger body all over.

LC is in a position to do this if it is within KS's ability. It may not work - not all racehorses can convert but it's a darn sight more likely to with a rider like LC on his back not a race rider.

It's not on to deny a horse a chance because you want to damn him on the basis of "what ifs" and in the pursuit of holding on to your own memories of past races. Letting him move on does not change his past or his achievements.
		
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Oh he's plenty strong enough, but his way of going will make it difficult to have him anchored safely enough to jump solid obstaces. And why the hell *should* he have to change from what he knows and loves? This is the bit I really don't understand - if a horse like KS cannot be honoured enough to have the best option for him, then what hope is there for any other horse??

 Because make no mistake, no horse wins all that being unhappy in his routine. You say it's not on to deny him a chance - a chance of what? Seriously, he has a life where he's loved adored worked and happy. Doesn't he deserve to keep that rather than be used as a weapon by his petulant owner and publicity hungry new trainer and rider?


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Good grief, what vitriol this is raising   You'd think no-one ever took a showjumper and turned it to dressage, or that no horse was ever happy in a different home from the one it's been in for a few years.


You people who want him to stay "where he has been happy" seem to be missing one huge point. He will not be living the same life if he stays where he is. He will not be as fit, he will not have the same exercise regime, he will not be racing and over time he will no longer be so "special" and given so much attention. 

Personally, I think the horse would prefer to go to a more one-person home than continue to be part of a business. 

You are entitled to disagree with me on this, but can we stop the vitriol about the owner?


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

amymay said:



			Thanks for the link.

Can't see, either, where it says about the horse going on to win for him

Click to expand...

Of course he is not going to state the horse is going to win for him, it is rather what he is hoping, without saying this in public.
Did you not see the banter he used to have with Harry Findlay over Denman vs Kauto Star?
Smith is ambitious and owners like that do not change overnight.
He is sending the horse to one of the best riders and trainers in the country why exactly? 
So that the horse has the best chance of switching codes?
mmmmm let me think on that.
Now why would he want the horse to have the best chance of doing that I wonder?
So he would do well at it?

As for the other comment further up about the owner wishing to spend more time with his horse, oh yes of course ..........
He is going from one competition yard to another, he is hardly going to the average DIY livery yard down the road where you can spend time with your horse petting, treating, mucking out etc.
Somehow I could not see him donning a pair of gloves, a pair of Ariats and lifting up Kauto's faeces from the stable floor. 
Or fetching the grooming kit to give him a good brush or put on that extra layer as he has just been clipped and it is a bit chilly outside.

No a polo or two will do and a little pat for good measure..... and now off to speak about how his training is coming along and when do you think he may appear at a venue? 
That is more how I imagine the situation will be.
Kauto Star is an asset, a commodity to be orchestrated like a puppet on a string.

The horse could probably not careless what he is doing so long as he is getting out and stretching his legs.
Tell me do dressage horses stand in their stables and ponder..... I simply must perfect my piaffe........ 
Or the showjumper..... gosh I really must learn to lift my hind legs a little bit higher next time. 
Kauto just like any horse will enjoy being ridden ( if no problems), having a good blast now and then. Stretching his legs, having a good old roll in his stable, field or school.
Time out at pasture with other equine company.
Being groomed, rubbed, or massaged as horses quite enjoy this, since they do it to each other in the field.
Finally being fed, horses must eat and drink to survive.
That is a horse, the life of a horse as I see it. 
A life that he could have achieved where he was, his home. 
Kauto does not dream about becoming a top dressage horse or eventer. Those are the secret dreams of his owner. 
He should have stayed where he was with the people that knew him best of all.... end of!


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			He should have stayed where he was with the people that knew him best of all.... end of!
		
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I don't agree with you.


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## Maisie2 (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Good grief, what vitriol this is raising   You'd think no-one ever took a showjumper and turned it to dressage, or that no horse was ever happy in a different home from the one it's been in for a few years.


You people who want him to stay "where he has been happy" seem to be missing one huge point. He will not be living the same life if he stays where he is. He will not be as fit, he will not have the same exercise regime, he will not be racing and over time he will no longer be so "special" and given so much attention. 

Personally, I think the horse would prefer to go to a more one-person home than continue to be part of a business. 

You are entitled to disagree with me on this, but can we stop the vitriol about the owner?
		
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^^^^^  Absolutely agree , I think some of the comments about Mr. Smith are disgraceful and quite uncalled for,  no one on this forum knows what went on between PN and  CS.  I was amused by CS's comment re thinking that he was the horse's owner, maybe he didn't realise that lots of HHOers are taking on that responsibility   There are thousands of racehorses who would be extremely lucky to go to such a 'terrible future'


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## oldvic (13 December 2012)

Drakerath said:



			I dare say with a 'proper' rider on KS's back and some schooling under his belt, he would be a lot less likely to take the crashing falls he had when being ridden by stable jocks.

I don't mean disrespect by this but anyone in this industry knows that stable jocks are great at what they do (race riding and (race) schooling) but they are not in a position to (dressage) school and balance horses because it just isn't needed and thus not a priority when all a horse needs to do is bascially go fast and stay upright whilst taking on some brush fences.

To take on an event course, a horse NEEDS to have been balanced/schooled and have a stronger body all over.

LC is in a position to do this if it is within KS's ability. It may not work - not all racehorses can convert but it's a darn sight more likely to with a rider like LC on his back not a race rider.

It's not on to deny a horse a chance because you want to damn him on the basis of "what ifs" and in the pursuit of holding on to your own memories of past races. Letting him move on does not change his past or his achievements.
		
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Ruby Walsh not a proper rider?!!!!! He is probably one of the finest horsemen of our time. Good though Laura undoubtedly is, Ruby will have forgotten more about presenting a horse at a fence and riding a horse in balance than Laura will ever know. All sports require rhythm and balance for success - racehorses need balance to be economical with their energy and to be able to go fast. Being able to keep that balance is the difference between success and failure. Like a lot of french racehorses, KS has always been quite flat in his jump and found it easier to be long than deep to a fence. Not ideal for XC at any level. I'm not sure where the idea that racehorses don't have strong bodies comes from. I have never found a notable difference.
You accuse the racing people of letting their feelings overrule what is good for the horse. You are doing just that by saying he would rather have a change in lifestyle than stick with what he knows. How do you know that? Did he tell you?!!!



cptrayes said:



			I can't see why people think it would be a better life for him to stay in a racing yard. If my hunter's disappointed face is anything to go by every time I load anyone but him into the lorry, then the last thing a highly competitive animal like Kauto Star would want is to be stuck at home every time anyone else went out to race.
		
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KS is used to seeing the box going out without him. PN has runners virtually every day, sometimes 2/3 meetings but KS would only be on those boxes 3/4 times a year. His situation will be no different at Laura's. The box will go out a lot without him. I would doubt that he would care as he doesn't expect to go out every time. It tends to be horses from small yards that care more.


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

KS is used to seeing the box going out without him. PN has runners virtually every day, sometimes 2/3 meetings but KS would only be on those boxes 3/4 times a year. His situation will be no different at Laura's. The box will go out a lot without him. I would doubt that he would care as he doesn't expect to go out every time. It tends to be horses from small yards that care more.[/QUOTE]

I have posted earlier how many races he has contested in the UK. Obviously he has had racecourse gallops and no doubt veterinary hospital visits too ( aside the recent parades). But I agree with you Nicholls has a very busy yard and Kauto will have experienced this.


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## Drakerath (13 December 2012)

It is generally agreed that the retraining of racehorses is a Good Thing. The RoR exists to help facilitiate the usage of ex racehorses in another life after racing rather than leave them languishing in a yard (or pet food!). You don't find people advocating a life on the yard over moving on, do you. KS is not exempt just because he was able to gallop faster than his peers.

KS is no different. He has raced like thousands of other racehorses out there. These other horses are encouraged to go on and do something more, why is KS any different. Just because he raced and came in ahead of other horses, who also raced like he did, does not mean he should not avail himself of the systems in place to allow ex racers to prosper...

It all comes down to whether you think a horse who has previously raced is going to enjoy a combination of hacking/schooling, jumping/unaffiliated or even affiliated competitions versus hacking up and down the same road to the same gallops to do the same thing every day ad infinitum.

Clearly a large number of people feel a horse that is no longer racing is better off moving on from a racing yard to do more. I genuinely don't understand people who would rather constrain a young, fit horse to a life of plodding up and down a road compared to life in an event (or other discipline's) yard. Is it a case if you can have him then no one should be able to enjoy him, let alone the horse enjoy himself! 

Why would you deny him some fun? He is not a plaything for you to look at and pet. He is a horse with a mind of his own and deserves more than being a plod. There are plenty of nags out there PN's yard can use for leading others up to the gallops. It is no life I would choose for a young, fit horse. It's beyond selfish to treat a good horse like that .

Good on his owner for allowing KS the chance to continue to thrive and take on new challenges. Has this horse not done enough in life to prove to all your haters that he enjoys a challenge?


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			You people who want him to stay "where he has been happy" seem to be missing one huge point. He will not be living the same life if he stays where he is. He will not be as fit, he will not have the same exercise regime, he will not be racing and over time he will no longer be so "special" and given so much attention. 

Personally, I think the horse would prefer to go to a more one-person home than continue to be part of a business. 

You are entitled to disagree with me on this, but can we stop the vitriol about the owner?
		
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The owner deserves the vitriol. 

And I am not missing any point - he'll carry on being ridden by Clifford and Donna, he'll stay in the same box at the head of the yard where he can see everything that goes on, he can go out in the same paddock he is used to, he'll go up the gallops without the hard work necessary to have him race fit, he could go to five big meeting a year as Dessie did and have Ruby, or Clifford, or another top jock take him for a spin round the track, and have everyone watch him come back in. That's what would happen, the only difference would be that he wouldn't jump fences at speed any more, or be put under pressure. It's a routine that he obviously loved and thrived on, otherwise he'd never have won what he did. 
They love and adore him, he is King in that yard, and knows it. He was a Legend. 

That's what was on the table for him. And now he's just another horse moved on. Utter disgrace.


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## Drakerath (13 December 2012)

Ks is not a suckling foal who needs to be left in the same yard. He is a mature horse perfectly capable of boxing up and being stabled at another yard. He is still pees and craps like any other horse!
Yes he should be respected but frankly so should any horse that has given its all in racing. 
It is disgraceful how only some horses are good enough to love and respect in racing.


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

Drakerath said:



			It is generally agreed that the retraining of racehorses is a Good Thing. The RoR exists to help facilitiate the usage of ex racehorses in another life after racing rather than leave them languishing in a yard (or pet food!). You don't find people advocating a life on the yard over moving on, do you. KS is not exempt just because he was able to gallop faster than his peers.
		
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I'll ignore the pathetic and puerile labeliing those of us who disagree with you as 'haters'.

Most racers NEED to find a new home as there is not the space on the yard they were trained in. Some trainers keep the special horses - NTD has Bindaree for ex. 

Either you think horses are commodities, and never bond with people, or you have to get why it's wrong to move the horse. He's been racing competitively at the top level for 9 years. That's plenty - he's been in training since he was 2 - he is nearly thirteen. Surely his right is an easier version of a life he so clearly loves with people he knows. 

He doesn't need a 'new' challenge, god knows he's faced enough in his life. 

I am so saddened that people think horses should be passed around.


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

Drakerath said:



			Ks is not a suckling foal who needs to be left in the same yard. He is a mature horse perfectly capable of boxing up and being stabled at another yard. He is still pees and craps like any other horse!
Yes he should be respected but frankly so should any horse that has given its all in racing. 
It is disgraceful how only some horses are good enough to love and respect in racing.
		
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What - so because some trainers are less that caring about their horses, all horses have to suffer the same fate? Are you deranged?  

Why are you not applauding a trainer and staff who quite clearly care enough for the horse to offer him a home for life?


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## PolarSkye (13 December 2012)

oldvic said:



			Ruby Walsh not a proper rider?!!!!! He is probably one of the finest horsemen of our time. Good though Laura undoubtedly is, Ruby will have forgotten more about presenting a horse at a fence and riding a horse in balance than Laura will ever know. All sports require rhythm and balance for success - racehorses need balance to be economical with their energy and to be able to go fast. Being able to keep that balance is the difference between success and failure. Like a lot of french racehorses, KS has always been quite flat in his jump and found it easier to be long than deep to a fence. Not ideal for XC at any level. I'm not sure where the idea that racehorses don't have strong bodies comes from. I have never found a notable difference.
		
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Ruby Walsh is one of the best jump jockeys of all time . . . but he isn't an eventer.  Arguing that he's better than LC, or any other eventer for that matter, is like arguing that apples taste better than oranges.  All good riders can "ride" but there are unique differences between the disciplines that make the best in those disciplines shine.  Yes, jockeys and eventers gallop between fences, but the similarities pretty much end there.  

Yes, all equine sports require rhythm and balance . . . but all equine disciplines require horses to use different muscles in different ways.  When I bought my boy, his idea of jumping was based on his hunting experience . . . fast and flat.  It didn't take much schooling - and certainly not of the calibre of YB and LC - to teach him a different way of going . . . and he was 10 or 11 at the time.  

The bottom line here is that KS has not been condemned to a life of drudgery iin some trekking centre . . . he's been sent for some education with a decent event rider and the British Eventing Team's chef d'equipe . . . he may, or may not take to his flatwork schooling . . . he may, or may not, make an eventer . . . he may, or may not, go back to Ditcheat.  As frustrating and galling as it must be for all those in the racing fraternity to accept, the cold fact is that it's not for Paul Nichols to decide what to do with this lovely horse . . . it's down to his owner.  From what I can see, he will be cherished and well cared for while he is on LC's yard . . . and we can only wait and see whether he enjoyes this new stage in his life.

P


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Why are you not applauding a trainer and staff who quite clearly care enough for the horse to offer him a home for life?
		
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Because I don't think life as a PR machine and babysitter is the right life for this horse.

The offer by the trainer is not entirely altruistic, if at all. The offer by the staff is irrelevant as they are only employees, they will be paid for their work, and it is no skin off their nose if he stays.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			What - so because some trainers are less that caring about their horses, all horses have to suffer the same fate? Are you deranged? 

Click to expand...

Oh for goodness sake, can you drop the emotive language?




			suffer the same fate
		
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Suffer? To go to a nice and talented pro eventer's yard and be looked after like a pro eventer.


Even my horses wouldn't mind "suffering" that fate!


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			The owner deserves the vitriol.
		
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I disagree with you.





			And now he's just another horse moved on. Utter disgrace.
		
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And I disagree with you that this move is an "utter disgrace"


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## SusannaF (13 December 2012)

_Neigh, snorty snort_

What's that, Kauto? You think it's weird that all these people who never met you can read your mind?

_Prrrrrrrrrrrrr! Snort!_

You never gave any press interviews?

_squeal!_

Yes, I can imagine that would be very strange.


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## Drakerath (13 December 2012)

KS will be looked after just as well in LC's yard. Of that I have no doubt. He will receive the best care as her would have done at PNs. To suggest otherwise is somewhat arrogant is it not? PNs staff are no better or worse than many other top yards. 

KS is being offered the opportunity to try something new and if he does not like it, then he can be retired to plod about as he would have done at PNs. He won't be forced into anything. This opportunity is for KS, not for his owner.

There is a wider world outside racing and this world can offer horses a better life than they would get in a race yard as the official Yard Nag!

clearly the crux of all this is that some people think being the yard hack is better than being reschooled. My own view is that would be crazy. I've seen both yards and I know what I'd prefer for a fit 12 year old. 

And I don't see KS (or any other horse) as a commodity but then nor do I put him on a pedestal. I see him as a 12 year old horse with a brain and body that he would enjoy using for a few more years yet. I like to think I approach this with an unbiased viewpoint, not clouded by what this horse did in the past.

The past has no bearing on what this horse should do in the future. Only the future counts. Decisions should be made on what is in the best interests of this horse now and every day to come. They should not be based on what the horse did in the past. His best interests must be looked after, not preserving memories at the expense of a horse living in the here and now.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			he'll carry on being ridden by Clifford and Donna, he'll stay in the same box at the head of the yard where he can see everything that goes on, he can go out in the same paddock he is used to, he'll go up the gallops without the hard work necessary to have him race fit, he could go to five big meeting a year as Dessie did and have Ruby, or Clifford, or another top jock take him for a spin round the track, and have everyone watch him come back in. That's what would happen, the only difference would be that he wouldn't jump fences at speed any more, or be put under pressure. It's a routine that he obviously loved and thrived on, otherwise he'd never have won what he did. 
They love and adore him, he is King in that yard, and knows it. He was a Legend.
		
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Shall we look at this another way?

He'll be ridden by Clifford and Donna while either of them continues to be employed at that yard. 

He'll be subject to the turnover of grooms that most large yards have, given that it's  a very tough but very low paid job.

He'll watch as strings of racehorses come in, fail to be good enough, and disappear again. He'll make friends and lose them time and again. 

He'll be galloping without the endorphin highs that come from super fitness.

The "drug withdrawal" of the loss of those endorphins without other activities to occupy his mind may turn him into a cribber or a weaver, assuming that he is not already one. 

He'll be fussed over for another couple of years until his story is old hat and as a quiet elderly horse he might end up being used to teach the new lads how to gallop, when he might as well be in a riding school. 

He'll be stuck at home unless he is taken out to be pawed over by the public at supermarket openings, and we've all seen how Joe public just loves to smack a horse's nose as a greeting.  Or have any old jockey who's around jump on for a canter. Wow. 





I am not saying that any of this will come true, but it's as likely as your shining picture of his future, and far more plausible than your massive condemnation of the future which his owner has chosen for him.


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Shall we look at this another way?

He'll be ridden by Clifford and Donna while either of them continues to be employed at that yard. 

He'll be subject to the turnover of grooms that most large yards have, given that it's  a very tough but very low paid job.

He'll watch as strings of racehorses come in, fail to be good enough, and disappear again. He'll make friends and lose them time and again. 

He'll be galloping without the endorphin highs that come from super fitness.

The "drug withdrawal" of the loss of those endorphins without other activities to occupy his mind may turn him into a cribber or a weaver, assuming that he is not already one. 

He'll be fussed over for another couple of years until his story is old hat and as a quiet elderly horse he might end up being used to teach the new lads how to gallop, when he might as well be in a riding school. 

He'll be stuck at home unless he is taken out to be pawed over by the public at supermarket openings, and we've all seen how Joe public just loves to smack a horse's nose as a greeting.  Or have any old jockey who's around jump on for a canter. Wow. 





I am not saying that any of this will come true, but it's as likely as your shining picture of his future, and far more plausible than your massive condemnation of the future which his owner has chosen for him.
		
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Nicholls does not have a swift turnover of staff - Kauto's been looked after by the same people since he arrived. 

What I wrote about his future is what would have happened had the horse been treated with the respect he deserves, not some random guess. I know that through connections. 

And as for the rest of your points, frankly, they're not worth dissecting. 
I disagree with you. You are ranting randomly to point score and as ever becoming extremely tedious. But then you regard horses as commodities too, so we have no common ground whatsoever.


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## Dobiegirl (13 December 2012)

I dont particularly like CS purely because of the way this was handled but I dont think he is glory seeking either, people are saying because KS has been sent to a top yard engaging top people proves it.If he had sent him to an unknown person CS would be villified as a cheap skate when in fact he just wants him to have the top class care he has always had, so what is wrong with that.

I still hope that PN and CS can overcome their differences and when KS is fully retired he can go back home.

It must be heartbreaking down at Ditcheat looking out the office window and not seeing Kauto.


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## PolarSkye (13 December 2012)

Not that I'm a huge fan of the Daily Fail, but this confirms what many on here have speculated . . . he's with LC and YB purely to assess his suitability as a riding horse . . . 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ra...tml?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

P


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## TarrSteps (13 December 2012)

I think it's amazing that everyone KNOWS what all the players - KS, CS, PN, YB and LC - think and what's going to happen.  Surely it's a done deal now?  I really doubt anyone will push the situation too far, even only because there is no point and no one wants bad publicity.  Either the horse will fit into the new gig or he won't.


It does raise an interesting point, though.  In the great debate about retraining "ex-racers" there isn't always a lot of attention paid to WHICH ex-racers will succeed best in their new homes.  People seem increasingly to think that any horse can fit into any slot, regardless of conformation, temperament, injury etc - maybe this will make a few more people taking on a "cheap" (because let's face it, that's often the motivation) horse give some consideration to the horse's suitability for whatever job they have planned for it, be it happy hacker or FEI eventer.


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## Kat (13 December 2012)

PolarExpress said:



			Not that I'm a huge fan of the Daily Fail, but this confirms what many on here have speculated . . . he's with LC and YB purely to assess his suitability as a riding horse . . . 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ra...tml?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

P
		
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Yikes it comes to something when the Fail contains one of the most sensible and non-hysterical articles about something!


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## Drakerath (13 December 2012)

Ha ha
Yes it galls me to say that piece by the Daily Wail was seemingly well balanced and avoided the hysteria seen of late.


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## oldvic (13 December 2012)

PolarExpress said:



			Ruby Walsh is one of the best jump jockeys of all time . . . but he isn't an eventer.  Arguing that he's better than LC, or any other eventer for that matter, is like arguing that apples taste better than oranges.  All good riders can "ride" but there are unique differences between the disciplines that make the best in those disciplines shine.  Yes, jockeys and eventers gallop between fences, but the similarities pretty much end there.  

Yes, all equine sports require rhythm and balance . . . but all equine disciplines require horses to use different muscles in different ways.  When I bought my boy, his idea of jumping was based on his hunting experience . . . fast and flat.  It didn't take much schooling - and certainly not of the calibre of YB and LC - to teach him a different way of going . . . and he was 10 or 11 at the time.  

The bottom line here is that KS has not been condemned to a life of drudgery iin some trekking centre . . . he's been sent for some education with a decent event rider and the British Eventing Team's chef d'equipe . . . he may, or may not take to his flatwork schooling . . . he may, or may not, make an eventer . . . he may, or may not, go back to Ditcheat.  As frustrating and galling as it must be for all those in the racing fraternity to accept, the cold fact is that it's not for Paul Nichols to decide what to do with this lovely horse . . . it's down to his owner.  From what I can see, he will be cherished and well cared for while he is on LC's yard . . . and we can only wait and see whether he enjoyes this new stage in his life.

P
		
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It's Ruby's talent as a horseman that I was commenting on and his skill at presenting horses at fences. I agree that a good rider is a good rider whatever his discipline but Ruby is exceptional. He would be just as at home eventing if he had chosen that route.
A hunter jumping fast and flat doesn't compare to a top class racehorse jumping flat. Some horses have a conscience and are careful others are less so. The latter tend to be less able to change. It is the necessity to use different muscles in different ways that is my exactly my point. I have no issue with Yogi or Laura - there are few, if any, better for the job they have been asked to do - and he certainly will be very well cared for. I just am not convinced it is right for this particular horse - my opinion, nobody else needs to agree.


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## christine48 (13 December 2012)

Why is everyone getting so hot under the coller? If PN thought so much of KS, why did he say to move him that day? None of us will know what really went on between both parties.
Though I don't know LC personally, we see her around a lot on the eventing circuit. What I do know is that she is one of GBs up and coming talents, her horses always do a very good test. The horses always look immaculate. She has lessons with YB every week so I suspect money isn't a problem. I think he'll be very well cared for.


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## Marydoll (13 December 2012)

PolarExpress said:



			Ruby Walsh is one of the best jump jockeys of all time . . . but he isn't an eventer.  Arguing that he's better than LC, or any other eventer for that matter, is like arguing that apples taste better than oranges.  All good riders can "ride" but there are unique differences between the disciplines that make the best in those disciplines shine.  Yes, jockeys and eventers gallop between fences, but the similarities pretty much end there.  

Yes, all equine sports require rhythm and balance . . . but all equine disciplines require horses to use different muscles in different ways.  When I bought my boy, his idea of jumping was based on his hunting experience . . . fast and flat.  It didn't take much schooling - and certainly not of the calibre of YB and LC - to teach him a different way of going . . . and he was 10 or 11 at the time.  

The bottom line here is that KS has not been condemned to a life of drudgery iin some trekking centre . . . he's been sent for some education with a decent event rider and the British Eventing Team's chef d'equipe . . . he may, or may not take to his flatwork schooling . . . he may, or may not, make an eventer . . . he may, or may not, go back to Ditcheat.  As frustrating and galling as it must be for all those in the racing fraternity to accept, the cold fact is that it's not for Paul Nichols to decide what to do with this lovely horse . . . it's down to his owner.  From what I can see, he will be cherished and well cared for while he is on LC's yard . . . and we can only wait and see whether he enjoyes this new stage in his life.

P
		
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Agree with this ^^^^^


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## Roasted Chestnuts (13 December 2012)

I would rather see a horse out doing a job than stuck in a stable or field doing nothing even though its more than capable.

KS will be looked after, he will have no more than he's capabe of asked of him, he's not a big flashy warmblood built and trained for Dressage and yogi and LC know this and will treat as such I'd imagine.

I just don't get what all the fuss is about he will be looked after, cared for and be challenged in a different way to keep his brain occupied, what's wrong with that? People attach too many human emotions to horses sometimes, does the horse really carewhose feeding him as long as he's fed?


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Nicholls does not have a swift turnover of staff - Kauto's been looked after by the same people since he arrived.
		
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Kauto is a star, who looks after the also rans?  Who will look after Kauto when his star has faded and he's  a shrunken 20 year old has been?





			What I wrote about his future is what would have happened had the horse been treated with the respect he deserves, not some random guess. I know that through connections.
		
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You have no idea what his future will be. He might have colicked tomorrow. God forbid but the trainer could get a nasty disease and be dead in a month. No-one knows the future and his future is at least as likely, and more so in my opinion, to be happy with the route that his owner has taken. 





			And as for the rest of your points, frankly, they're not worth dissecting. 
I disagree with you. You are ranting randomly to point score and as ever becoming extremely tedious.
		
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It is always the refuge of people who are finding the argument difficult to resort to personal insult.




			But then you regard horses as commodities too, so we have no common ground whatsoever.
		
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And this one I absolutley LOVE!  You strongly support jump racing with the highest death rates in equestrian sport in a long, long way and you accuse me of regarding horses as commodities? Best one of the day, well done, made me smile for the first time since I got up.


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Kauto is a star, who looks after the also rans?  Who will look after Kauto when his star has faded and he's  a shrunken 20 year old has been?




You have no idea what his future will be. He might have colicked tomorrow. God forbid but the trainer could get a nasty disease and be dead in a month. No-one knows the future and his future is at least as likely, and more so in my opinion, to be happy with the route that his owner has taken. 




It is always the refuge of people who are finding the argument difficult to resort to personal insult.




And this one I absolutley LOVE!  You strongly support jump racing with the highest death rates in equestrian sport in a long, long way and you accuse me of regarding horses as commodities? Best one of the day, well done, made me smile for the first time since I got up.
		
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Who's resorting to personal insult now? Clearly you can dish it out but not take it. 

This is because you don't like racing, you appear to think that no horse likes being in a racing yard. You obviously have no understanding of the regard Kauto is held in in the yard. 

He will be passed on from LC. It's wrong that such a legendary horse should have to be continually rehomed. But then you seem to think he's just a horse. I don't, I think he should be celebrated and lauded for his bravery and character, and the pleasure he has brought to so many people over the years, with his obvious joy of doing what he does best - being a racehorse. 

What happens to other horses is not the issue here, that's diverting the topic completely - this is about the selfish arrogance of a difficult man who want to hurt those on the yard at Ditcheat and has used the best horse I've seen in my lifetime to do that. Only as ever it's the horse that suffers.


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## Dobiegirl (13 December 2012)

I wouldnt take much notice of what cptrayes is saying, yes she hates racing but anyone that remembers her Shetland post will never take her seriously.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Who's resorting to personal insult now? Clearly you can dish it out but not take it.
		
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I think you'll find that your last comment is more appropriate to your own behaviour?  It is the person who insults first to whom that applies, not that I accept that I have said anything insulting you at all. 




			You obviously have no understanding of the regard Kauto is held in in the yard.
		
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He doesn't give a toss about their regard for him, you are anthropomorphising too much 




			It's wrong that such a legendary horse should have to be continually rehomed.
		
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  He will not be continually rehomed. He is being assessed by Breisner and Collett at the request of the ROR scheme to see if he is suitable to become a lower level horse in different disciplines. At the end of that he will be found a one on one home where he will have ONE person who thinks the world of him who he knows that he belongs to. In my experience of retrained racehorses, they love it. 





			But then you seem to think he's just a horse. I don't, I think he should be celebrated and lauded for his bravery and character, and the pleasure he has brought to so many people over the years, with his obvious joy of doing what he does best - being a racehorse.
		
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But he cannot continue to be a racehorse. It will kill him. He won't be a racehorse if he stays at his training yard. You seem want him as some kind of stable trophy and to be honest this latest comment says more about what you and the humans on that yard want than what is right for him. 




			this is about the selfish arrogance of a difficult man who want to hurt those on the yard at Ditcheat and has used the best horse I've seen in my lifetime to do that. Only as ever it's the horse that suffers.
		
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One, I do not believe that the horse will suffer in any way from this move.

Two, I believe that the horse will have a MORE enjoyable life from this move. All he wants is to be a horse, not someone's personal trophy.

Three, I do not agree with you about the motives of the owner. He appears to me to be doing a huge and marvellous PR job for ALL finished racehorses by this highly publicised and no doubt expensive move.

You are aware that you can be sued for libel even for anonymous posts online, are you? You seem to me to be stepping very close to the line about a rich man with plenty of connections. I would be a little more careful about what I write if I were you.


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## Miss L Toe (13 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			You obviously don't see many stallion parades at racecourses then do you?
They were ex racers and they prance around the ring proud and excited to be there.
Tell me Frankel did not enjoy his spin in front of the crowds? 
Tell me Kauto Star did not enjoy his appearance at Haydock?
How exuberantly did Dessie used to power down the course, even in his later years.
They loved it, they were special horses.
Kauto has nothing more to prove.
He is not a stallion so he cannot pass on any of his genes.
I will say this and I will say this again.
The reason he has been sent to a top rider with a top trainer is to seek further stardom for the horse. 
Why? 
Why does Kauto need to excel in another discipline?
Tell me who is Smith doing this for exactly, him or the horse? 
The horse owes him nothing financially or publicly as it has helped him into the limelight of the press on many an occasion.
However his owner clearly feels this is not enough and he wants Kauto to bow out in style.
No matter what the cost to the horse, he wants to see him winning again.
Funny how some people can clearly not accept a retirement from high level competitions.
Kauto could have done many, many equine disciplines to keep his mind active.
He would not have got bored at Nicholls.
Racing is all he has ever known..........
An outstanding racehorse is all he will ever be perceived as by his TRUE racing fans.
		
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a bit of commonsense at last!


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			I wouldnt take much notice of what cptrayes is saying,....... anyone that remembers her Shetland post will never take her seriously.
		
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Oh, that would be the fact that I once kicked a Shetland instead of leaning down to hit it with my hand that makes me unfit to comment on the rehoming of a finished racehorse, would it Dobiegirl 


I assume you can't actually think of anything relevant to add to this discussion?


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			a bit of commonsense at last!
		
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Have you seen an NH previous winners parade at a racecourse MLT?

The one I saw at the Grand National could have made you weep. They looked more bored and wooden than the steam carousel at our local fair. Walking a load of pensioned off geldings in a circle like dogs at a dog show does not compare with a stallion parade!

There's a fair amount of other nonsense in the comment that you think so highly of, but you are entitled to your own opinion about it.


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## Dobiegirl (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Oh, that would be the fact that I once kicked a Shetland instead of leaning down to hit it with my hand that makes me unfit to comment on the rehoming of a finished racehorse, would it Dobiegirl 


I assume you can't actually think of anything relevant to add to this discussion?
		
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To refresh your memory, your hubby was forgetful of shutting the food store so rather than put a lock on , fence it off or sort out your husband you laid in wait for your Shetland and gave it a kicking so he wouldnt raid the food store again.

I have made lots of relevent posts without being emotional but Im not obsessed with trying to get my opinion over which maybe you could take on board Im sure others would be grateful for that.


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## christine48 (13 December 2012)

I wonder if Red Rum enjoyed being dragged around making celebrity appearances and opening super markets etc? I think KS will enjoy an alternative career. Look at Denman, there wasn't all this fuss then.


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Have you seen an NH previous winners parade at a racecourse MLT?

The one I saw at the Grand National could have made you weep. They looked more bored and wooden than the steam carousel at our local fair. Walking a load of pensioned off geldings in a circle like dogs at a dog show does not compare with a stallion parade!

There's a fair amount of other nonsense in the comment that you think so highly of, but you are entitled to your own opinion about it.
		
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I have seen former winners in the National Hunt fraternity parade and they looked pretty happy to me. But what would I know about horses and racehorses.
I have been around horses since the age of 6, ridden since I was 11. I am 40 now.
I have watched racing since I was 12. Being going to the races since 1995. 
Worked in racing for nearly 4 years seeing many racehorses, owners and trainers.
In fact one such pair of owners trusted me that much that they gave their ex racehorse to me. 
She is enjoying a happy life as a hacker.
Now you try to tell me that she is not happy when she whinnies and bucks and leaps around the field.
When she rolls in her stable and does her I want to shake myself all over move.
When she is out hacking and is very forward going in walk and if you get her into canter or gallop she puts her head down and has a real good blow. She pulls up a sane horse and gives you a look as though she thoroughly enjoyed it.
If you tried to tell me that my horse is not happy and enjoying life I would tell you to go and do one!

So please, please don't assume that us racing fans have no hands on experience or knowledge of racehorses or even ex racehorses. 

On an internet forum, do not assume anything my dear


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

christine48 said:



			I wonder if Red Rum enjoyed being dragged around making celebrity appearances and opening super markets etc? I think KS will enjoy an alternative career. Look at Denman, there wasn't all this fuss then.
		
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You could try asking the late Ginger McCain's son or daughter that and I am quite sure that they would be quite upset by a comment like that!


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## bonny (13 December 2012)

christine48 said:



			I wonder if Red Rum enjoyed being dragged around making celebrity appearances and opening super markets etc? I think KS will enjoy an alternative career. Look at Denman, there wasn't all this fuss then.
		
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Red Rum lived with his trainer until he died in his 30's, doubt anyone on here could even name his owner ? He was Ginger's horse till the end, exactly what alot of racing people think should have been the case for Kauto. 
There is no comparison between Denman and Kauto Star or indeed with anyother horse in training.....


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			To refresh your memory, your hubby was forgetful of shutting the food store so rather than put a lock on , fence it off or sort out your husband you laid in wait for your Shetland and gave it a kicking so he wouldnt raid the food store again.

I have made lots of relevent posts without being emotional but Im not obsessed with trying to get my opinion over which maybe you could take on board Im sure others would be grateful for that.
		
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I never saw this, but seriously that is ****** disgraceful. Yet this person claims to know so much about horses and behaviour...... 
Awful simply awful


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## Dobiegirl (13 December 2012)

bonny said:



			Red Rum lived with his trainer until he died in his 30's, doubt anyone on here could even name his owner ? He was Ginger's horse till the end, exactly what alot of racing people think should have been the case for Kauto. 
There is no comparison between Denman and Kauto Star or indeed with anyother horse in training.....
		
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Red Rums owner was Noel Dela Mare or as near as dam it, I remember seeing Red Rum parading at Wincanton, he must have been well into his 20s and he was bucking and kicking like a 2yr old and he looked fabulous.


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## Dobiegirl (13 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			I never saw this, but seriously that is ****** disgraceful. Yet this person claims to know so much about horses and behaviour...... 
Awful simply awful 

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Quite, I rather think you lose your credability after doing something so stupid.


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:





Red Rums owner was Noel Dela Mare or as near as dam it, I remember seeing Red Rum parading at Wincanton, he must have been well into his 20s and he was bucking and kicking like a 2yr old and he looked fabulous.
		
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Well I know that they are happy that the horse stayed with them, that is for sure. 
I never saw him parade in the flesh but have seen video re-runs of his appearances and he looked a happy and well horse to me.


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Quite, I rather think you lose your credability after doing something so stupid.
		
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I quite agree, poor pony  
It would not have even known or understood what it was being kicked for. 
What the hell was she trying to teach it?


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I think you'll find that your last comment is more appropriate to your own behaviour?  It is the person who insults first to whom that applies, not that I accept that I have said anything insulting you at all. 



He doesn't give a toss about their regard for him, you are anthropomorphising too much 

  He will not be continually rehomed. He is being assessed by Breisner and Collett at the request of the ROR scheme to see if he is suitable to become a lower level horse in different disciplines. At the end of that he will be found a one on one home where he will have ONE person who thinks the world of him who he knows that he belongs to. In my experience of retrained racehorses, they love it. 




But he cannot continue to be a racehorse. It will kill him. He won't be a racehorse if he stays at his training yard. You seem want him as some kind of stable trophy and to be honest this latest comment says more about what you and the humans on that yard want than what is right for him. 



One, I do not believe that the horse will suffer in any way from this move.

Two, I believe that the horse will have a MORE enjoyable life from this move. All he wants is to be a horse, not someone's personal trophy.

Three, I do not agree with you about the motives of the owner. He appears to me to be doing a huge and marvellous PR job for ALL finished racehorses by this highly publicised and no doubt expensive move.

You are aware that you can be sued for libel even for anonymous posts online, are you? You seem to me to be stepping very close to the line about a rich man with plenty of connections. I would be a little more careful about what I write if I were you.
		
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So now who's the one reading tea leaves and knowing the future. 

I've figured it's because you hate racing. Fine. Just stop trying to dress it up as something else with flights of fantasy. 

I'm not anthropomorphising - horses don't like change - that is known to most horsemen and women. In a lot of cases it's not an option, but in his case it was. Maybe you have so many pass through your hands that you haven't noticed?

PMSL @ your libel threat - grow up.


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## silu (13 December 2012)

Saw Red Rum up close and personal a few times as I knew Noel le Mare and unless I am completely bonkers Rummie LOVED all the fuss and attention.He stayed with the people who knew him best. Can't see KS staying at LC's if things aren't "fabulous" so that will entail another move and we all know how risky it is and upsetting for horses to be moved stables. Arkle, due to injury didn't have the chance (probably a blessing for the horse!) to be asked to do a completely different job at a relatively old age. IMO he should have stayed with PN. I sincerely hope this somewhat highly publicised move doesn't end in tears for KS and it isn't the scenario of "no such thing as bad publicity" for his sake.


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## justabob (13 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			I wouldnt take much notice of what cptrayes is saying, yes she hates racing but anyone that remembers her Shetland post will never take her seriously.
		
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I have thought for a while that this thread could not get any more unpleasant, then Dobiegirl you throw the above comment into the mix. A comment out of context, shame on you.


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## Lady La La (13 December 2012)

Its not really out of context, what she said was quite true.
Read it for yourself 
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...0995&highlight=Shetland+pony+feed+shed&page=6


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

justabob said:



			I have thought for a while that this thread could not get any more unpleasant, then Dobiegirl you throw the above comment into the mix. A comment out of context, shame on you.
		
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Why is the comment out of context?
It demonstrated that one of the people on here who was condemning others of their views about the Kauto move was not infallible. 
They had failed to manage one of their own animals properly so how could they be taken seriously about their comments as to what is in the best interest of Kauto Star when they kicked a pony for accessing feed which should have been locked up!


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## Elf On A Shelf (13 December 2012)

26 pages of arguing if a horse should change career or not - impressive!


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

Hho Hho Hho said:



			Its not really out of context, what she said was quite true.
Read it for yourself 
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...0995&highlight=Shetland+pony+feed+shed&page=6

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Guess moving yards doesn't seem quite such an issue compared to that .....


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

EKW said:



			26 pages of arguing if a horse should change career or not - impressive!
		
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Change your settings - mine's only seven pages!


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## justabob (13 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Why is the comment out of context?
It demonstrated that one of the people on here who was condemning others of their views about the Kauto move was not infallible. 
They had failed to manage one of their own animals properly so how could they be taken seriously about their comments as to what is in the best interest of Kauto Star when they kicked a pony for accessing feed which should have been locked up!
		
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Sorry but taking one quote from another thread does not negate, for me anyway, the sense that CPT has put forward on this particular one. I find it nasty and unpleasant. We are allowed our opinions without someone dragging up historic threads. I hope KS is enjoying his new life and thank god he can not read.


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## Dobiegirl (13 December 2012)

EKW said:



			26 pages of arguing if a horse should change career or not - impressive!
		
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Thats nothing, there is another thread on the same subject in NL.


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## cronkmooar (13 December 2012)

I have been so restrained but I can't resist any longer

Firstly I watch Red Rum in every national he did as a very young kid - I even cried when he was withdrawn from the final one he was entered in.

I could tell you the name of his owner and what he looked like - he always looked like he was 150 but I think he really was an old man when RR was running.

Secondly - I'm not going to get into the why's and whatevers about KS moving yards - as the owner of 4 recycled racehorses - all to the end of their days - I think that if KS can go on to a new career, be it walk and trot tests or whatever, he could become the new poster boy for retraining racehorses - just think of the good he could do for those that have not fared as well as himself.

Finally, someone posted a link to the racing post quite a few pages back now so I cant be arsed looking for it.   There was a picture of KS looking at himself in a mirror on LC yard - you could see the breath mark on the mirror.

Some muppet had a rant on the comments about isolating new horses and not letting them touch noses - I think this indicates the level of moron that is getting their knickers in a knot about all of this.

As long as the horse doesn't end up like hello dandy and is well cared for with his needs met until the end I dont think he will be too put out about who shovels his s**t


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			They had failed to manage one of their own animals properly so how could they be taken seriously about their comments as to what is in the best interest of Kauto Star when they kicked a pony for accessing feed which should have been locked up!
		
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If you want to ban every person from commenting on every thread who has made a mistake like letting a pony get into food it should not have got into, this forum would shut tomorrow. 

For what it's worth, that pony was sold this year in order to give him a more interesting lifestyle than I was able to give him, and his new owners are complemented by everyone who handles him about what a lovely character he has and what exceptional manners for a Shetland.

Now folks, can we stop using this rehearsal of stuff that is two years old to deflect from the serious discussion as to what is happening to Kauto Star?


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			It demonstrated that one of the people on here who was condemning others of their views about the Kauto move was not infallible.
		
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I cannot let this pass without comment. I have politely disagreed with others in this thread. I have "condemned" *NO-ONE*


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

silu said:



			Red Rum  ..... stayed with the people who knew him best.
		
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He was trained by his owner in a tiny little yard right by the sea. The case is entirely different.


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## bonny (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			He was trained by his owner in a tiny little yard right by the sea. The case is entirely different.
		
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Shows your in depth knowledge of horse racing !!!!


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			I've figured it's because you hate racing. Fine. Just stop trying to dress it up as something else with flights of fantasy.
		
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You will not find any suggestion from me anywhere that racing should be banned. Racing is far, far too complex an issue to be "hated". 




			PMSL @ your libel threat - grow up.
		
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It is not a threat. How can I threaten you, it is not me that you are libelling? I am just pointing out that your incredible unpleasantness, using anonymity to  hide behind, is not necessarily as risk free as you seem to assume.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

bonny said:



			Shows your in depth knowledge of horse racing !!!!
		
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Was he not trained in Southport by Ginger McCain? Apologies if that was incorrect, please set me right. 

Is it also untrue that he was so unhappy in the stable that he had to have a goat in with him? And that when asked if it was for companionship Ginger joked "no it's so he can kick the **** out of it!"?


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

I am not sure why it suddenly becomes a prerequisite to have an in depth knowledge of racing yards to believe that Kauto Star will be better of as a one-person horse doing a bit of riding club stuff and/or hunting. Can someone enlighten me?


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			You will not find any suggestion from me anywhere that racing should be banned. Racing is far, far too complex an issue to be "hated". 



It is not a threat. How can I threaten you, it is not me that you are libelling? I am just pointing out that your incredible unpleasantness, using anonymity to  hide behind, is not necessarily as risk free as you seem to assume.
		
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Who mentioned banning anything? Do read my posts, cpt ......

Racing's no more complex than any other sport. It is is fact more transparent. But that's not the issue, is it? You knock it wherever you can, and are quite distastefully using this horse to fuel your bias. 

And obviously, I'm going to be libelled for calling someone arrogant. 

I think you are a complete eejit - care to take me to court?


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Was he not trained in Southport by Ginger McCain? Apologies if that was incorrect, please set me right. 

Is it also untrue that he was so unhappy in the stable that he had to have a goat in with him? And that when asked if it was for companionship Ginger joked "no it's so he can kick the **** out of it!"?
		
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Actually if you knew the late Ginger which I had the pleasure of doing I think you will find that his comment was most likely tongue in cheek. He had an infectious personality, was well loved  and joked aplenty.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

bonny said:



			Shows your in depth knowledge of horse racing !!!!
		
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OK, instead of 

He was trained by his owner in a tiny little yard by the sea

make it 

He was trained by his buyer in a tiny little yard by the sea.

Better  ?

I rather felt the "tiny little yard by the sea" was more important in the context of a long and happy life for a retired racer, than the fact that the man who bought and trained him promptly sold him on to the actual owner.

Though I apologise profoundly for my original mistake


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## bonny (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I am not sure why it suddenly becomes a prerequisite to have an in depth knowledge of racing yards to believe that Kauto Star will be better of as a one-person horse doing a bit of riding club stuff and/or hunting. Can someone enlighten me?
		
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For whatever reason you just seem spoiling for a fight about this, I don't believe you care about the issue or in trying to understand the point of view of those of us that do....it would be a waste of time to explain what you would never understand if you really believe Kauto Star should go off and do a bit of riding club stuff.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			care to take me to court?
		
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No but  I am going to button push on this post because you seem to be getting more and more extreme.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

bonny said:



			For whatever reason you just seem spoiling for a fight about this,.
		
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Why is it that I am not allowed, in your eyes, to politely put an alternative point of view, without being told that I am "spoiling for  a fight"?

I don't understand your point of view? I do, but I do not think that you are right. How is this in any way different about your position on my point of view?

Why can you not just agree that we have different points of view?


For me this is not just about Kauto Star. He and his owner's money are in a position to do an enormous amount of good for all the horses that the racing industry aren't so fervent about - the failures.  If he can do that and also be happy and make a new owner extremely happy then I think that would be a wonderful outcome.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Actually if you knew the late Ginger which I had the pleasure of doing I think you will find that his comment was most likely tongue in cheek. He had an infectious personality, was well loved  and joked aplenty.
		
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Golly gosh Fantasy World, do you think I never realised GMcC was joking?  The clue was my use of the word "joked".

It is true though that he was unhappy in his stable and instead of turning him out, as would most likely happen in a Riding Club home, he was given a goat to keep him happier?


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Who mentioned banning anything?
		
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I did. Do I have to ask your permission before choosing what words I want to write now ?


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## Goldenstar (13 December 2012)

Folks this is not edifying and does neither of your views of the KS saga any good at all.
Just saying .


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Golly gosh Fantasy World, do you think I never realised GMcC was joking?

It is true though that he was unhappy in his stable and instead of turning him out, as would most likely happen in a Riding Club home, he was given a goat to keep him happier?
		
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A riding club home don't make me laugh, if you are referring to some of the types I have seen at livery yards then no they do not always turn out their horse or pony unless it suits the owners.
Bored horses are given boredom breakers and other similar toys, ok so it is not a goat, but at least Red Rum had an animal as a companion.
I have seen horses cooped up in stables for no less than 6 months, for no reason whatsover. 
These were horses that were going to be sold onto competition homes.
Come to think of it most of the competition types I have seen at yards have wrapped their horses up in cotton wool and not allowed them the freedom afforded to their equine stablemates. Mainly because god forbid if they should happen to enjoy their field and run around and get injured or dirty!

If Ginger had had the set up which he had in his later years then I would imagine that Rummy would have been allowed more freedom. I would say it was the constraints at the time of his present yard that caused issues. 

However I must add that I have been at yards that have had wonderful and safe fields for turnout, yet the types that would box up or trailer up their horse for a show, or to sell on would choose to keep the horse shut up in a stable.


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			No but  I am going to button push on this post because you seem to be getting more and more extreme.
		
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I'm extreme???? 

Have a wee word with yourself ......... PMSL!


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## Kiribati_uk (13 December 2012)

Time for as group hug??? Chillax folks its nearly time for santa to come, and you all know if ya not good you wont get any pressies!!!!!


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Ah I see so in your eyes then so long as Kauto is used as a publicity stunt for the re-training of racehorses then it is all ok is it?
There are numerous centres and charities that do astounding work to promote the welfare and new lives of former racehorses. 
They do not need the likes of Kauto to promote the status of ex racers by himself partaking in a sport outside of racing.
He could have done his bit for the ex racers by raising funds through donations via the yard or by racecourse appearances. 
Likewise owner Smith could afford to cough up a few more coffers for the racing charities if he so wished.
		
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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Ah I see so in your eyes then so long as Kauto is used as a publicity stunt for the re-training of racehorses then it is all ok is it?
		
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No, my main wish would be to see him in a one-person home with someone who gives him individual attention and a varied life.  The rest is a bonus and wouldn't need him to do anything additional.


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			No, my main wish would be to see him in a one-person home with someone who gives him individual attention and a varied life.  The rest is a bonus and wouldn't need him to do anything additional.
		
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Editied because I was being bitchy - but that aside - one horse home ??? He's hardly headed for that in LC's yard is he?


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## Luci07 (13 December 2012)

oh heavens. Anyone seen the photos of KS with Laura? lovely pictures and looking very good. Why has this deteriorated into a Racing V Another career? And why the equal assumption that KS will never be happy again. Neither lifestyle is superior and please can posters who being so dismissive of riding club/competition people and their horses have a little grace and not tar us all with the same brush? 

It is highly unfortunate that the spate between trainer and owner has become so public and so polarised public opinion. Can we try on this board to be nicer to each other about all this? what a shame if the wonder that is Kauto Star is then chiefly remembered due to very public slanging matches and not for his huge success in racing. Because that is what is happening right now. Can't remember a thread being this long for any of his successes...


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Editied because I was being bitchy - but that aside - one horse home ??? He's hardly headed for that in LC's yard is he?
		
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According to the reports I have read, he is there for assessment only, not to stay.

I said one-person, not one-horse. I have three horses but they all know that I am their person.


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## Dobiegirl (13 December 2012)

Luci07 said:



			oh heavens. 
 Can't remember a thread being this long for any of his successes...
		
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Yes funny that and most of those closet loving Kauto Star never commented on those threads, I should know because I posted a lot of them.


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I said one-person, not one-horse. I have three horses but they all know that I am their person.
		
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Yeh, but given your stance on Kauto, apparently that's you being anthropomorphic?


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Yeh, but given your stance on Kauto, apparently that's you being anthropomorphic?
		
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I personally think that there is a fairly big difference between horses realising that one person is consistently their carer, feeder, rider, trainer, travelling groom etc and any particular horse caring that it is a King, which was the context of my comment about anthropomorphism.


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## Dobiegirl (13 December 2012)

Kauto had the same person caring for him all the time and one person riding him at Paul Nicholls,  a bit like  at Lauras.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Kauto had the same person caring for him all the time and one person riding him at Paul Nicholls,  a bit like at Lauras.
		
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He isn't staying at Laura's according to what I have read. 

And I find it very difficult to believe that as one horse in a yard that big that he would continue to have only one person riding him  as he gets older and less of a figurehead than he is right now.  I guess that isn't something that either of us can prove, so I hope that we can agree to disagree on it.


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I personally think that there is a fairly big difference between horses realising that one person is consistently their carer, feeder, rider, trainer, travelling groom etc and any particular horse caring that it is a King, which was the context of my comment about anthropomorphism.
		
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I wrote - "You obviously have no understanding of the regard Kauto is held in in the yard."

You replied - "He doesn't give a toss about their regard for him, you are anthropomorphising too much "

As the regard he's held in governs the care and love he receives from those who have looked after him all that time, I'd say it's particularly significant.


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## Brigadoon (13 December 2012)

I doubt I am saying anything that has not been said already but as a Kauto fan I will pop in my tuppence worth as well.
The "happy endings and romantic" side of me wanted to see him stay at Ditcheat with all those who loved and knew him so well. For him to be worked how he knows and be kept in the lap of luxury. He would have paraded for his legions of fans regularly and we could have had regular Kauto fixes.
The "sensible" side of me knows he is going to a top class home, her yard is lovely. She is a top class rider and Yogi...well..what can you say...he is a legend himself.
I have often thought things were slightly strained between PN & CS. PN is a champion trainer and his results speak for themselves. CS clearly has the money to afford horses in a league above most others.
But although they owned and trained the horse let them not forget punters and fans put them kinda where they are. Your housewives who pop a couple of quid on at highdays and holidays. Kids who enjoy the racing over the holidays. Us everyday horse lovers...who just love him etc .
He is part public property and we want to see him live a long and happy life.

Perhaps by doing this (ego's aside) he will help other normal ex-racers find a life outside racing. Only this week I have been offered 2 ex-racers, for nothing. I wish I could have taken them in. I tried to assist in finding them homes but no one wanted them. " It's mid-winter, they are nutters, do you know how much they eat" were the main responses. I know where they will now go but at least they won't be cold and hungry if they passed from pillar to post. Not everyone can manage an ex racer and if Kauto goes and does another job then he champions the cause for other ex-racers.
Kauto is not like your average ex-racer. To have achieved what he did is really the stuff of legend. Frankel, Desert Orchid, Black Caviar....are horses that shine above all others. We are lucky to have seen their like.
I know I want to see Kauto but as long as he is fit, loved and happy then it can't be a bad old life.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			As the regard he's held in governs the care and love he receives from those who have look after him all that time, I'd say it's particularly significant.
		
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Are you saying what you seem to be,  that he'd get better care because he's famous? In other words, that other horses get worse care in racing stables because they are not?


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## Dobiegirl (13 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			I wrote - "You obviously have no understanding of the regard Kauto is held in in the yard."

You replied - "He doesn't give a toss about their regard for him, you are anthropomorphising too much "

As the regard he's held in governs the care and love he receives from those who have looked after him all that time, I'd say it's particularly significant.
		
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I totally agree, Ive been to his yard and been lucky to have met him by private invitation, even have the photos, my point being it was obvious the regard he is held in and the love everyone felt for him. As he got older he would never have been seen less than he is now which is what Cptrayes is saying. He is a super star and always will be.


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Are you saying what you seem to be,  that he'd get better care because he's famous? In other words, that other horses get worse care in racing stables because they are not?
		
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No. I'm saying that he was much loved, and always had been, and did nothing to deserve being moved from that aura of security, where he knew those that worked with him were his 'people'. As you say yours know you're their person.........


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## bonny (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Are you saying what you seem to be,  that he'd get better care because he's famous? In other words, that other horses get worse care in racing stables because they are not?
		
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Of course he gets better care than most.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			No. I'm saying that he was much loved, and always had been, and did nothing to deserve being moved from that aura of security, where he knew those that worked with him were his 'people'. As you say yours know you're their person......... 

Click to expand...

I have no idea what goes on in PN's yard, can you tell me?

Who mucked out his stable and groomed him and how many other horses did they have to do on the same day?

How much time were they able to spend with him?

Who fed him when?

Who rode him and for how long would he be ridden when not racing any more? 

Where?

Would he have been turned out each day? For how long and with what other horses?

Would he have been turned away for three months as somene has said that he was when racing, and how does this fit with his continuity of feeling secure and loved?



You may not be able to answer those questions and it doesn't matter if not, it's only for my own personal interest/nosiness, to try to understand why you think he would have been so much better off to stay where he was.


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I have no idea what goes on in PN's yard, can you tell me?

Who mucked out his stable and groomed him and how many other horses did they have to do on the same day?

How much time were they able to spend with him?

Who fed him when?

Who rode him and for how long would he be ridden when not racing any more? 

Where?

Would he have been turned out each day? For how long and with what other horses?

Would he have been turned away for three months as somene has said that he was when racing, and how does this fit with his continuity of feeling secure and loved?



You may not be able to answer those questions and it doesn't matter if not, it's only for my own personal interest/nosiness, to try to understand why you think he would have been so much better off to stay where he was.
		
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You are truly  

You supply me with the comparisons of where he might end up (and good luck with even having a clue about that) and I'll compare them to his daily routine at Ditcheat and let you know the differences. 

What is abundantly clear, is that the routine he has had for the last eight years has made him a very happy horse. And rather than repeat myself, the info as to what they would have done with him had he stayed at Ditcheat is in my previous posts.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

I'm sorry but none of the previous posts have answered those questions completely, and mostly not at all.

And comparisons with where he might end up are pointless, we don't  know where he is going to end up. From the strop that the trainer has thrown, it does not appear that going back to Ditcheat will be on the cards if Laura and Yogi advise that he is not suitable for retraining into a new career.

 I am sorry that you have taken my genuine attempt to understand what the horse's life would have been at Ditcheat in this way. If no-one can tell me what it would have been, then I can't make any progress towards understanding why some people are so adamant that he should have stayed there, when personally I can see a better life for a fit sound 11/12 year old somewhere else.

By the way I do not accept that just because a horse wins it is happy. There are plenty of examples of horses that are really mean or difficult to handle that are great athletes in all sorts of sports.


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I have no idea what goes on in PN's yard, can you tell me?

Who mucked out his stable and groomed him and how many other horses did they have to do on the same day?

How much time were they able to spend with him?

Who fed him when?

Who rode him and for how long would he be ridden when not racing any more? 

Where?

Would he have been turned out each day? For how long and with what other horses?

Would he have been turned away for three months as somene has said that he was when racing, and how does this fit with his continuity of feeling secure and loved?



You may not be able to answer those questions and it doesn't matter if not, it's only for my own personal interest/nosiness, to try to understand why you think he would have been so much better off to stay where he was.
		
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Why don't you ask the poster on the thread who claims to know the ins and outs of how he was trained, pootling along the road and up the gallops.
I am sure if they are as knowledgeable about the horse and his day to day routine they will be able to answer those questions for you


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## Dobiegirl (13 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			You are truly  

You supply me with the comparisons of where he might end up (and good luck with even having a clue about that) and I'll compare them to his daily routine at Ditcheat and let you know the differences. 

What is abundantly clear, is that the routine he has had for the last eight years has made him a very happy horse. And rather than repeat myself, the info as to what they would have done with him had he stayed at Ditcheat is in my previous posts.
		
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Haha, lost the plot I think


Paul Nicholls is renowned for keeping  older horses fit and sound as well as remaining still loving their racing which is no mean feat. This dosnt come about unless a lot of thought and care has been put into their training regime. Clearly this is all over Cptrayes head. Because its a large yard it dosnt mean the care is any less.


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			I totally agree, Ive been to his yard and been lucky to have met him by private invitation, even have the photos, my point being it was obvious the regard he is held in and the love everyone felt for him. As he got older he would never have been seen less than he is now which is what Cptrayes is saying. He is a super star and always will be.
		
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Lucky you x I wish I had had that opportunity to see him in the flesh and it will always make me sad that I never got the chance to see him or Denman up close and personal.
I just hope and pray that both are here to stay for many years ahead. 
I also believe he would have remained a superstar at Ditcheat x


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			No. I'm saying that he was much loved, and always had been, and did nothing to deserve being moved from that aura of security, where he knew those that worked with him were his 'people'. As you say yours know you're their person......... 

Click to expand...

I quite agree x


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## Caledonia (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I'm sorry but none of the previous posts have answered those questions completely, and mostly not at all.

And comparisons with where he might end up are pointless, we don't  know where he is going to end up. From the strop that the trainer has thrown, it does not appear that going back to Ditcheat will be on the cards if Laura and Yogi advise that he is not suitable for retraining into a new career.

 I am sorry that you have taken my genuine attempt to understand what the horse's life would have been at Ditcheat in this way. If no-one can tell me what it would have been, then I can't make any progress towards understanding why some people are so adamant that he should have stayed there, when personally I can see a better life for a fit sound 11/12 year old somewhere else.

By the way I do not accept that just because a horse wins it is happy. There are plenty of examples of horses that are really mean or difficult to handle that are great athletes in all sorts of sports.
		
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Gosh, now you want to 'understand' whereas a few posts back you knew everything? Oh, but then of course unhappy horses do what Kauto did cos they're mean or difficult? 

Can I suggest you leave the shovel at the end of your last post?


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## Dobiegirl (13 December 2012)

http://www.paulnichollsracing.com/manor-farm-stables-ditcheat.htm


Cptrayes why dont you contact them yourself as you are so interested, Im sure they will be more than happy to answer your questions.

I wouldnt believe anyone else that has so called inside knowledge but would rather get it from the horses mouth so to speak


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## KautoStar1 (13 December 2012)

Good god, this thread has lost all sense of common sense & decency.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Cptrayes why dont you contact them yourself as you are so interested, Im sure they will be more than happy to answer your questions.
		
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Because I am only interested in the context of the strong disagreement of people on THIS thread with my own point of view, and their inability simply to accept that we have different points of view.

I was trying to find out what they knew that I didn't that made them feel so strongly about it.

I failed.


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## Fantasy_World (13 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



http://www.paulnichollsracing.com/manor-farm-stables-ditcheat.htm


Cptrayes why dont you contact them yourself as you are so interested, Im sure they will be more than happy to answer your questions.

I wouldnt believe anyone else that has so called inside knowledge but would rather get it from the horses mouth so to speak

Click to expand...

This ^^^^^^^^


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## Dobiegirl (13 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Because I am only interested in the context of the strong disagreement of people on THIS thread with my own point of view, and their inability simply to accept that we have different points of view.

I was trying to find out what they knew that I didn't that made them feel so strongly about it.

I failed.
		
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Aah the logic of your arguement because we cant give you a minute by minute account  of his life at Ditcheat has ruled us out of having an opinion, rather rules everyone else thats posted as well


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## TrasaM (13 December 2012)

Oh FFS!
1. Kyoto Star WAS a racehorse of extraordinary ability who won loads of money for the punters and his owners/ trainer.
2. He is now an ex racehorse. He will have no or limited further financial benefit to above mentioned individuals. 
3. His OWNER exercised his legal right to decide what to do with HIS horse.
4. No one on this site ( HHo) have any say in what becomes of him..unless you can afford to purchase him.

What is the point of this discussion? He's a horse..he will be fine. He will be valued in whatever job he ends up in because of his history. 


AAaaAaaGgggggggHHH..


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## marmalade76 (14 December 2012)

bonny said:



			Red Rum lived with his trainer until he died in his 30's, doubt anyone on here could even name his owner ? He was Ginger's horse till the end, exactly what alot of racing people think should have been the case for Kauto. 
There is no comparison between Denman and Kauto Star or indeed with anyother horse in training.....
		
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Noel Le Mare 

There wasn't the fuss about Denman because he took a fairly normal/expected route for an ex chaser. I have followed hounds in the company of a National winner and a Gold Cup winner/National runner up. It was lovely to see them out enjoying themselves


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## marmalade76 (14 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			No, my main wish would be to see him in a one-person home with someone who gives him individual attention and a varied life.  The rest is a bonus and wouldn't need him to do anything additional.
		
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I agree, or at least a yard where he won't be taking a back seat to number of 'proper' comp horses. I was quite surprised at the choice of home, but it sounds like it's not going to be a long term thing.

And I see some beat me to Noel, that'll teach me not to post without reading the whole thread first!


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## Amymay (14 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			but Im not obsessed with trying to get my opinion over which maybe you could take on board Im sure others would be grateful for that.
		
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I don't think cptrays is being obsessed at all - I think you'll find that what she's entering in to is good old fashioned _debate......_


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## Amymay (14 December 2012)

Hho Hho Hho said:



			Its not really out of context, what she said was quite true.
Read it for yourself 
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...0995&highlight=Shetland+pony+feed+shed&page=6

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People, please get a life.  Good grief!

And _do_ put it in context please, because it's totally out of context as posted about in here.


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## Amymay (14 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I was trying to find out what they knew that I didn't that made them feel so strongly about it.

I failed.
		
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You failed, cptrayes, because I don't believe that anyone posting on this thread works at Ditcheat, or ever has - and therefore can't give a first hand account of how any horse is looked after there or indeed how the yard is run.


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## cptrayes (14 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Aah the logic of your arguement because we cant give you a minute by minute account  of his life at Ditcheat has ruled us out of having an opinion, rather rules everyone else thats posted as well

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I don't understand this comment Dobiegirl. I have accepted that you have a different point of view than me. I have tried to understand your point of view and failed. 

I am not trying to convince you, it is you trying to convince me. Why can you not just accept that we have different points of view about Kauto's future and the behaviour of his contacts?

I hope we can agree that we all hope the horse will be healthy and happy whatever he ends up doing.


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## cptrayes (14 December 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			Noel Le Mare 

There wasn't the fuss about Denman because he took a fairly normal/expected route for an ex chaser. I have followed hounds in the company of a National winner and a Gold Cup winner/National runner up. It was lovely to see them out enjoying themselves 

Click to expand...

marmalade I agree, my first choice for him would have been for him to go hunting. I think ROR may have had quite a lot of input into this decision, from reading that beacon of reliable information, the Daily Wail.


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## MadisonBelle (14 December 2012)

cronkmooar said:



			I have been so restrained but I can't resist any longer

Firstly I watch Red Rum in every national he did as a very young kid - I even cried when he was withdrawn from the final one he was entered in.

I could tell you the name of his owner and what he looked like - he always looked like he was 150 but I think he really was an old man when RR was running.

Secondly - I'm not going to get into the why's and whatevers about KS moving yards - as the owner of 4 recycled racehorses - all to the end of their days - I think that if KS can go on to a new career, be it walk and trot tests or whatever, he could become the new poster boy for retraining racehorses - just think of the good he could do for those that have not fared as well as himself.

Finally, someone posted a link to the racing post quite a few pages back now so I cant be arsed looking for it.   There was a picture of KS looking at himself in a mirror on LC yard - you could see the breath mark on the mirror.

Some muppet had a rant on the comments about isolating new horses and not letting them touch noses - I think this indicates the level of moron that is getting their knickers in a knot about all of this.

As long as the horse doesn't end up like hello dandy and is well cared for with his needs met until the end I dont think he will be too put out about who shovels his s**t
		
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***round of applause***


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## Daffodil (14 December 2012)

and another round of applause from me!


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## claracanter (14 December 2012)

How lovely is this?

http://twitter.com/CollettEventing/status/279539355574472705/photo/1


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## Scarlett (14 December 2012)

claracanter said:



			How lovely is this?

http://twitter.com/CollettEventing/status/279539355574472705/photo/1

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Lovely  and is it just me or does his ears/mane look a bit dirty from rolling in the mud? Love it!!


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## Daffodil (14 December 2012)

it is indeed a lovely picture


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## Goldenstar (14 December 2012)

Yes that's lovely.


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## Lady La La (14 December 2012)

amymay said:





People, please get a life.  Good grief!

And _do_ put it in context please, because it's totally out of context as posted about in here.
		
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It really wasn't. DG was trying to explain to somebody (based on comments on _this_ thread) why not many folk take CPT seriously, the above link is a perfect example of why. There are many, many other threads to go with it, too. It was a simple comment, made in context, about why most of us don't tend to listen to much of what CPT says 

Its a public forum, it would be silly to think that you could post whatever you wanted, and it would just be forgotten. That doesn't tend to be how forums work.


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## cptrayes (14 December 2012)

That is a smashing photo through Kauto's ears, isn't it?  And Laura is obviously relaxed enough on his to take the reins in one hand to take the photo. Lovely.










p.s. if anyone is ever bored enough to want to see anything else I have ever written on this forum, just click on my name and click the "find more posts" button. Can't think why you would want to, but somebody just suggested that I would want to hide them


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## Pongwiffy (14 December 2012)

Blimey.

How come there isn't a thread like this every time an ex-racer embarks on a new career or is sold or moved from a yard it has previously been previously happy at?

Presumably no one would be worrying or arguing if an unknown ex-racer with a long but uninspiring career was sold and became a happy hacker or a riding club horse or an international eventer. 

Perhaps only horses who win money have futures that are worth arguing about.


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## Lady La La (14 December 2012)

Pongwiffy said:



			Perhaps only horses who win money have futures that are worth arguing about.
		
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Interesting comment. 
I would have thought it was fairly obvious that any horse in the limelight as much KS has been, is going to develop a certain amount of public interest. 
I think its nice that everybody has invested such an interest in his future though, even if I don't agree with everyone's opinions of where he should end up/what he should be doing, I think its lovely that every one cares. 

Whilst I agree that its a shame not every ex race horse is afforded the same luxury as KS after a racing career, the comparison to that of a top level competition horse in any other discipline is really no different. 
Do you think Joe Public care about where your sisters, aunts, boyfriends, uncle's failed eventer is being sold to? 
I should think they don't, just like they probably don't care quite so much about all of the other failed/low level horses out there in dressage, jumping, racing, etc that are being sold. 
Horses in the lime light will develop more public interest, that's a given.


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## Dobiegirl (14 December 2012)

amymay said:



			You failed, cptrayes, because I don't believe that anyone posting on this thread works at Ditcheat, or ever has - and therefore can't give a first hand account of how any horse is looked after there or indeed how the yard is run.
		
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But if she really wanted to know I gave her the link to find out, just send a simple email, how difficult is that. 

As far as I know no-one has professed to know the day to day routine of KS at PNs and I doubt very much anyone could do the same now he is at LCs.


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## Dobiegirl (14 December 2012)

Pongwiffy said:



			Blimey.

How come there isn't a thread like this every time an ex-racer embarks on a new career or is sold or moved from a yard it has previously been previously happy at?

Presumably no one would be worrying or arguing if an unknown ex-racer with a long but uninspiring career was sold and became a happy hacker or a riding club horse or an international eventer. 

Perhaps only horses who win money have futures that are worth arguing about.
		
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KS is a legend, he has made racing history so not your average racehorse, he has countless fans who were captured by him in his early racing career and have followed him ever since. We care what happens to him, we all love him and his happiness and well being is paramount. It seems to me the only difference on here is where he should have gone on retirement. My only beef has been the way this was handled and the upset caused to the yard. PNs team didnt have a problem with Denman and NC leaving the yard so common sense would say well why the fuss over KS leaving and from my point of view it was the fact they were not consulted over what happens after retirement.

My personal preference would have been to leave him where he was happy after all if CS wanted him to become a riding horse all that could have been done at Ditcheat. He could also have enjoyed hunting as does Denman.


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## Amymay (14 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			As far as I know no-one has professed to know the day to day routine of KS at PNs and I doubt very much anyone could do the same now he is at LCs.
		
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Reading some of the posts, Dobiegirl, you'd think that quite a few of you knew exactly what his daily management was.......


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## Dobiegirl (14 December 2012)

amymay said:



			Reading some of the posts, Dobiegirl, you'd think that quite a few of you knew exactly what his daily management was.......
		
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Show me the evidence, lets have some quotes.


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## faerie666 (14 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			My only beef has been the way this was handled and the upset caused to the yard. PNs team didnt have a problem with Denman and NC leaving the yard so common sense would say well why the fuss over KS leaving and from my point of view it was the fact they were not consulted over what happens after retirement.
		
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As far as I could see from all the reports and links that have been posted on here, Nicholls and his team were consulted about the horse's future, and I think in one article it said PN was told at the end of October that Kauto would be leaving after boxing day, to see if he could be found another job.
Then, seemingly all of a sudden, PN himself says he wants the horse gone that same afternoon (Tuesday, was it?)!

No one other than the people involved will ever know exactly what's gone on between PN and CS, but, at the end of the day, Kauto is Clive Smith's horse, he's paid all the bills (probably close to £2000/month) while the horse was in training, so the final decision is his, and people should respect that. 


What gets me about this post is that some people, without personally knowing the horse, or the exact routine at either Paul Nicholls' or Laura Collett's yards, are absolutely adamant that Kauto COULDN'T POSSIBLY thrive in a new yard/career, and will SUFFER as a result! 

I also think it's a shame that some of you think Kauto becoming an 'ambassador' (can't think of a better word) for retrained ex-racehorses, even if it's at the lower levels, is somehow beneath him. 

Maybe, had PN not kicked off the way he has, Kauto could have gone back to his yard if he didn't show an aptitude for another job, but I don't think that will happen now.

Me, personally, I don't actually care where or how Kauto spends his retirement, as long as he's happy, healthy and well looked after. Surely, that's all that matters?


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## Dobiegirl (14 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Ive no doubt he has gone to a brilliant home but I am still saddened, Kauto is a legend and could have been used in ways to fund ex racehorses. If he had stayed at PNs yard and had the occasional half days hunting he could have still paraded for all his fans and could have raised money at the same time. My sadness is that racing fans will not get to see him anymore, it is looking unlikely that he will be going to Kempton on Boxing day which considering he won 5 King Georges is a huge disappointment to all his fans. 

I just hope when the dust settles PN and CS can sit down and decide when his time with LC is over he can come back to PN and live out his days there.
		
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I said this sometime ago.


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## faerie666 (14 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			I said this sometime ago.
		
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Sorry, I didn't mean you personally with most of my post, only the first paragraph about PN being consulted about Kauto's future.


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## cptrayes (14 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			But if she really wanted to know I gave her the link to find out, just send a simple email, how difficult is that.
		
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You'd email a man known to have quite a temper with that question two day's  after the horse left his yard, would you  ?





			As far as I know no-one has professed to know the day to day routine of KS at PNs and I doubt very much anyone could do the same now he is at LCs.
		
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I have most of the information I wanted about Ditcheat, and I am even more convinced that he is better off with the future that his owner is arranging for him.


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## Dobiegirl (14 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			You'd email a man known to have quite a temper with that question two day's  after the horse left his yard, would you  ?
How do you know he has a temper? hearsay, have you ever met him? Ive met him 4 times and I found him to be very charming and totally immersed in racing which he has a deep love for and is quite happy to chat to anyone(even me) about any of his horses. As for the email I would have thought enquiring about the day to day running of the yard would be your question not asking about the fallout with CS.


I have most of the information I wanted about Ditcheat, and I am even more convinced that he is better off with the future that his owner is arranging for him.
		
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If you had most of the information about Ditcheat why all the questions unless it was to be contensious.


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## cptrayes (14 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			If you had most of the information about Ditcheat why all the questions unless it was to be contensious.
		
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Oh come on Dobiegirl please stop looking for a fight. I was given the information *after* I asked for it by someone who worked at Ditcheat, of course.

I also think that the way  a man behaves to a visitor who may well be a future customer bears no relation whatsoever to the way he treats his paid staff when no-one else is around. I'm glad you thought he was a nice man. I think by the simple fact of him throwing the horse out with no notice, it is clear what a temper he has.


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## faerie666 (14 December 2012)

I've just read a really good, sensible article about this whole fiasco:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/dec/12/kauto-star-racing-fans-dressage


This paragraph in particular, struck a chord with me, in relation to some of the rather strong opinions expressed in this thread:

_Perhaps a lesson that we could all take from this is that if a horse moving from one stable to another can be a cause of such anger, we may be guilty of investing too much emotion ourselves. Kauto Star has, at least, come through his racing career unscathed, and has not been asked to continue in a risky business once his chance of winning at the highest level was gone. His sprawling fall four out in the 2010 Gold Cup with his head bent under his body could easily have broken his neck. How much worse would that have been than a career-change into dressage?_


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## Dobiegirl (14 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Oh come on Dobiegirl please stop looking for a fight. I was given the information *after* I asked for it by someone who worked at Ditcheat, of course.

I also think that the way  a man behaves to a visitor who may well be a future customer bears no relation whatsoever to the way he treats his paid staff when no-one else is around. I'm glad you thought he was a nice man. I think by the simple fact of him throwing the horse out with no notice, it is clear what a temper he has.
		
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Aah so you just happened to have inside information how lucky for you how do you know it wasnt a disgruntled former employee or a fantasist, you dont do you. PNs staff have stayed for years that speaks for itself in my book.

I met PN in the pub and after chatting he invited me to meet KS and Denman, it was apparent I was not a potential client as I was working there at the time, ooh maybe he thought  I was the landlady


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## Fantasy_World (14 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Aah so you just happened to have inside information how lucky for you how do you know it wasnt a disgruntled former employee or a fantasist, you dont do you. PNs staff have stayed for years that speaks for itself in my book.

I met PN in the pub and after chatting he invited me to meet KS and Denman, it was apparent I was not a potential client as I was working there at the time, ooh maybe he thought  I was the landlady

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Exactly I have always found Paul to be friendly with the press and he was always nice when talking to me and even gave me a winner one day too.
I have never ever heard a bad word said about him, from jockeys, owners, the press and yet I have lurked. I have lurked in press rooms, weighing rooms, owner and trainer bars and press conferences. Never, ever did anyone say anything off the record about him or even when people were talking among themselves.
However I have heard comments made about other people which I will not reveal due to confidentiality. 
I have read in other places people calling him arrogant. 
Poppycock, he may be rushed sometimes after all he is a champion trainer with a rather large string to manage and numerous runners at meetings, but I would certainly not say he is arrogant. Plain speaking maybe, but to me that makes a good trainer.
He certainly knows how to train and place his horses and he is not champion trainer for nothing.


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## cptrayes (14 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Aah so you just happened to have inside information how lucky for you how do you know it wasnt a disgruntled former employee or a fantasist, you dont do you. PNs staff have stayed for years that speaks for itself in my book.
		
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Look. What is your problem with me? I am not trying to persuade you to my point of view. What information I have is my own business and I am not using it to try to change anyone else's mind.

You are welcome to your view that KS should have stayed at Ditcheat. You are far from alone in holding that view. I don't agree with you, so what's the big deal?

But since you mention it, I should look at the turnover of the staff who do not have the top jobs at the yard, the ordinary stable lads who actually do the horses, before you claim that in general his staff have stayed for years. 







			I met PN in the pub and after chatting he invited me to meet KS and Denman, it was apparent I was not a potential client as I was working there at the time, ooh maybe he thought  I was the landlady

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Anyone can win the lottery and even people on moderate incomes can afford syndication fees. A good businessman knows that when out in public.


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## Dobiegirl (14 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Look. What is your problem with me? I am not trying to persuade you to my point of view. What information I have is my own business and I am not using it to try to change anyone else's mind.

You are welcome to your view that KS should have stayed at Ditcheat. You are far from alone in holding that view. I don't agree with you, so what's the big deal?

But since you mention it, I should look at the turnover of the staff who do not have the top jobs at the yard, the ordinary stable lads who actually do the horses, before you claim that in general his staff have stayed for years. 


The girl looking after KS when I visited had been there for years and the girl who did Denman was pregnant, had her baby and then came back part time, it was obvious talking to the staff how committed they all were and how much they loved their jobs. I have PNs brochure for many years which lists all the staff and funnily enough its nearly all the same people.



Anyone can win the lottery and even people on moderate incomes can afford syndication fees. A good businessman knows that when out in public.
		
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Now youve gone and lost the plot again, everyone knows you are more likely to be hit by a double decker bus than winning the lottery.


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## Echo Bravo (14 December 2012)

Dobiegirl, no good trying to get your point over to CPTRAYES or AMYMAY as they think they are always right.


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## Always Henesy (14 December 2012)

Echo Bravo said:



			Dobiegirl, no good trying to get your point over to CPTRAYES or AMYMAY as they think they are always right.
		
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No they don't? They just have an opinion that differs to yours.
I am sorry but I can't sit on my hands any longer. There is such a thing as a healthy debate. I haven't seen anything from CPT that has been aggressive/inflammatory/personal or rude? You and a couple of others however


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## PolarSkye (14 December 2012)

You know what, I hate to do the whole this trumps that thing, but 22 elementary school (primary in this country) children were shot dead by some nutjob today . . . I love horses, I love racehorses, but all this bickering about what's best (or not) for a horse who's gone from one lovely yard to another actually means a lot less in the face of 22 sets of parents of young children shot dead by an idiot with a gun.

Some perspective might be in order.

P


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## Fantasy_World (14 December 2012)

PolarExpress said:



			You know what, I hate to do the whole this trumps that thing, but 22 elementary school (primary in this country) children were shot dead by some nutjob today . . . I love horses, I love racehorses, but all this bickering about what's best (or not) for a horse who's gone from one lovely yard to another actually means a lot less in the face of 22 sets of parents of young children shot dead by an idiot with a gun.

Some perspective might be in order.

P
		
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Yes the shooting is very tragic and I have indeed commented on the other thread about it. 
However it is worth noting that not a day goes by when there is not some tragedy/accident/death on the news. 
My heart goes out to the parents of those little ones, and I feel dreadfully sorry for the little lives that have been lost and also affected by those losses and today's events.
I do not think that because people are commenting on this thread that they are immune from the effects of today's events. 
I can understand the perspective comment, but there is room on here and in our hearts to be concerned over the death of these children and the future of Kauto Star.


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## bonny (14 December 2012)

PolarExpress said:



			You know what, I hate to do the whole this trumps that thing, but 22 elementary school (primary in this country) children were shot dead by some nutjob today . . . I love horses, I love racehorses, but all this bickering about what's best (or not) for a horse who's gone from one lovely yard to another actually means a lot less in the face of 22 sets of parents of young children shot dead by an idiot with a gun.

Some perspective might be in order.

P
		
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Using that logic we might as well stop talking about anything else....terrible what happened in America today but it's not relevant. Awful things are happening all over the world, doesn't stop us caring about other seemingly trivial things.


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## PolarSkye (14 December 2012)

bonny said:



			Using that logic we might as well stop talking about anything else....terrible what happened in America today but it's not relevant. Awful things are happening all over the world, doesn't stop us caring about other seemingly trivial things.
		
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Then you are seriously lacking in perspective love.

P


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## bonny (14 December 2012)

PolarExpress said:



			Then you are seriously lacking in perspective love.

P
		
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Why ?


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## PolarSkye (14 December 2012)

bonny said:



			Why ?
		
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22 elementary school children shot dead and you're worrying about a horse who has moved from one (caring and lovely) home to another (caring and lovely) home?

Perspective?

P


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## bonny (14 December 2012)

PolarExpress said:



			22 elementary school children shot dead and you're worrying about a horse who has moved from one (caring and lovely) home to another (caring and lovely) home?

Perspective?

P
		
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I said it wasn't relevant and it's not.  I also said awful things are happening all over the world and on a personal basis to millions of people and that doesn't stop us caring about seemingly trivial things as well . People on here are posting about all sounds of unimportant things and worrying about unimportant things. It's called life and has nothing whatsoever to do with the events today in America.


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## SusieT (14 December 2012)

I would love to know throught all this since when is a racing yard diet, schedule etc. considered to be good for the horse knowing as we do nowadays about the vices and ulcers such keeping predisposes horses too-not that a 'top' dressage yard is likely to be greatly different but all those people who propose a racing yard to be a horses 'ideal' place to live out their lives may need to rethink!


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## singing dawg (14 December 2012)

Well I have not bothered to read all the hundreds of opinions but here is mine.

I think he'd be happier if he was hunting a couple of mornings a month and slowly learing how to be a horse again, as opposed to a running machine.

I don't really think its fair to ask these  hard worked muscles to start changing shape as he enters his teens.  Being so constrained and precise will be stressful mentally, I think.


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## Dobiegirl (14 December 2012)

SusieT said:



			I would love to know throught all this since when is a racing yard diet, schedule etc. considered to be good for the horse knowing as we do nowadays about the vices and ulcers such keeping predisposes horses too-not that a 'top' dressage yard is likely to be greatly different but all those people who propose a racing yard to be a horses 'ideal' place to live out their lives may need to rethink!
		
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Any winning racehorse would not be on the top of their game without the balanced nutrition they need, top trainers are fully aware of vices etc. Having seen KS and Denman myself I can assure you I didnt see any windsucking,weaving or cribbing from either of them. Big Bucks on the other hand is a confirmed box walker I believe but as he is a stressy horse I suspect he would do that wherever he was stabled.


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## Marydoll (14 December 2012)

It doesnt matter what any of us want for this horse, he doesnt belong to us and the say will always lie with the owner as it should


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## dressedkez (15 December 2012)

singing dawg said:



			Well I have not bothered to read all the hundreds of opinions but here is mine.

I think he'd be happier if he was hunting a couple of mornings a month and slowly learing how to be a horse again, as opposed to a running machine.

I don't really think its fair to ask these  hard worked muscles to start changing shape as he enters his teens.  Being so constrained and precise will be stressful mentally, I think.
		
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Agree - in terms of high level dressage - He wuld be happier hunting / team chasing.
But the interesting debate in all of this is the relationship between trainer and owner - now who owns Carl Hester, Charlotte (unpronouncable) horses/ We don't know do we? Who owned Red Rum (dittto) though we all know who trained him.......Who trained and owned Desert Orchid - well I can answer for both here - David Elsworth - was not that public so he was happy to let Richard B do the public stuff........Who needs the higher profile Clive Smith or Paul Nicholls - clearly they are fighting over this - and that is the crux of this matter,I think.........


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## ossy (15 December 2012)

Laura has just been interviewed on morning line. Hes already at her yard apparently hacking and had a bit of training. She said there was no time line for when she has 2 have him out competing


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## SusannaF (15 December 2012)

marychristmas said:



			It doesnt matter what any of us want for this horse, he doesnt belong to us and the say will always lie with the owner as it should
		
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There are a few slivers of reality in this thread, but they're few and far between. I don't understand how everyone is convinced that they know exactly what Kauto himself thinks...


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## xspiralx (15 December 2012)

claracanter said:



			How lovely is this?

http://twitter.com/CollettEventing/status/279539355574472705/photo/1

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Gosh - he really looks so stressed and unhappy in his new job.


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## teapot (15 December 2012)

xspiralx said:



			Gosh - he really looks so stressed and unhappy in his new job. 

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There are quite a few of him looking incredibly stressed and unhappy in his new yard on her twitter account. Poor horse


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## Marydoll (15 December 2012)

teapot said:



			There are quite a few of him looking incredibly stressed and unhappy in his new yard on her twitter account. Poor horse 

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He's looking so good, like the pic of him cuddling in


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## Amymay (15 December 2012)

Echo Bravo, simply put - I am usually right.

However as far as this thread goes, there is no wrong or right. At the end of the day all any of us have on this thread is speculation. None of know the truth of the situation, or the charachters involved - let alone what's best for the horse.


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## Fantasy_World (15 December 2012)

A bit of a sweeping statement as there are a couple of people on here who know Paul Nicholls and some of his staff personally.
As for Clive Smith I have certainly read enough and seen enough of him through the televised media to be able to make an informed decision about his character.
He has shown a competitive spirit on more than one occasion and I'm afraid that unlike in a previously recorded programme which can be edited, in a live broadcast the cameras and microphones do not lie. 
True we can only speculate what is best for Kauto Star, however I think what has aggrieved many of his fans is the manner in which his future has been decided, with little thought of the staff at Ditcheat who have cared for him impeccably for the last almost 9 years.
I personally have nothing against Laura, but I wholly disagree with the future that has been chosen for him.
As race enthusiasts and horse owners I think we are all entitled to our own opinions.
You may have yours and I have mine.
My feeling about the matter will not change, even if Kauto does do well in his chosen career.


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## Amymay (15 December 2012)

It's very difficult (if not impossible) to make an informed decision on someone's character through use of the media.


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## Echo Bravo (15 December 2012)

Well let's face it,he's gone and there are certainly some very good kids on the block waiting to fill his shoes and I've watched them over the past few months.But one last word Hallo Bud retired and still in the family and where he's been for umpteen years and have looked for past favorites and most have ended their days either being a trainers hack, lead horse for youngsters or inthe hunting field still doing what they love.


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## Maesfen (15 December 2012)

Agree totally with Fantasy World's last post and also Echo Bravo's ^^  Was nice to see PN and team bouncing back today at Cheltenham although very sad that he also lost one.


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## Dobiegirl (15 December 2012)

amymay said:



			Echo Bravo, simply put - I am usually right.

However as far as this thread goes, there is no wrong or right. At the end of the day all any of us have on this thread is speculation. None of know the truth of the situation, or the charachters involved - let alone what's best for the horse.
		
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I disagree Amymay, you are famous for your one liners Im still waiting for that quote

I think if Kauto could talk he would like to go hunting but thats just my opinion.

It was lovely to see PN  have a lovely day although it was tinged with sadness having lost Cristal Bonus. I dont think Ive ever seen him so emotional in his interview and losing KS has been  heartbreaking for them all , he confessed to being embarassed at his behaviour and I think thats a mark of the man to do that.


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## silu (16 December 2012)

I too thought PN was 1st class when interviewed. Suppose "the proof of the pudding etc". Just can't quite see KS being actively competed when the chosen rider will be very busy travelling to 3 day events etc all over the place so presume KS will be ridden mainly by the stable staff. I'm sure all us racing fans will be hoping for the best for the horse whatever his future may be.


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## Moomin1 (16 December 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Oh, that would be the fact that I once kicked a Shetland instead of leaning down to hit it with my hand that makes me unfit to comment on the rehoming of a finished racehorse, would it Dobiegirl 


I assume you can't actually think of anything relevant to add to this discussion?
		
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Is this real?!!  Seriously?!

Disgusting.


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## Miss L Toe (16 December 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Agree totally with Fantasy World's last post and also Echo Bravo's ^^  Was nice to see PN and team bouncing back today at Cheltenham although very sad that he also lost one.
		
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I think the emotional live Channel 4 interview with Paul Nicholls indicated what a torrid time he has had this week, and the loss of a good horse yesterday must have been the last straw. In the circumstances, many trainers would have declined the interview.
The Kauto Star incident has caused a permanent split with Clive Smith [owner], and rocked the whole yard. The whole thing has been a PR disaster for team Kauto.
Yes, trainers can be prima donnas, but so also can owners, most of whom start off by seeing it as part of their lifestyle..... a leisure [and pleasure] activity, which ethos has to be supported by the trainer, who has to juggle the demands of the horse, the staff, the owners, the press, and the bank, to name but a few.
The whole thing has been a PR disaster for team Kauto.
The Morning Line [Channel 4] handled it in a professional manner.


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## Booboos (16 December 2012)

Soooo, to summarize, he'll either be

- an ulcer ridden, vice plagued, emotional wreck

- or a stressed out former legend for newbies to learn on 

- or a forced, unnatural retrained dressage horse

- or a discarded ex-running machine 

- or a public display for the ignorant to practice smacking noses on

Clearly a case for PTS me thinks.


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## Patterdale (16 December 2012)

Booboos are you for real!? Crikey! 

Am I missing something here? I was under the impression that the horse was going to someone else to do a bit of dressage in his retirement......not being put to death by firing squad, or going off to be a trekking pony or something. 

What's the big hoo-ha!?


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## Booboos (16 December 2012)

Snowflakedale said:



			Booboos are you for real!? Crikey! 

Am I missing something here? I was under the impression that the horse was going to someone else to do a bit of dressage in his retirement......not being put to death by firing squad, or going off to be a trekking pony or something. 

What's the big hoo-ha!?
		
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It was a joke, a self-evident one I thought.


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## Patterdale (16 December 2012)

Thank goodness! You never know here


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## Orangehorse (17 December 2012)

Oh well, if he bucks her off and causes mayhem amoung the other horses, maybe he will go back!


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## Fantasy_World (17 December 2012)

Orangehorse said:



			Oh well, if he bucks her off and causes mayhem amoung the other horses, maybe he will go back!
		
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I don't believe he would as Smith's ego would not withstand it!


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## MyBoyChe (17 December 2012)

If only he could talk!!  Then, and only then, would we know what KS would be happiest doing.  For all we know he might be just as happy putting his hooves up and doing nothing but eating and sleeping!!


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## Marydoll (17 December 2012)

Orangehorse said:



			Oh well, if he bucks her off and causes mayhem amoung the other horses, maybe he will go back!
		
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Yea because someone of that calibre wont have sat on a horse that bucks  a rather shabby comment, i hope he settles well and enjoys his new job


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## xspiralx (18 December 2012)

Another image of the poor abused horse having a miserable retirement, forced into endless circles in the school


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## ISHmad (18 December 2012)

Good luck Kauto Star, you are a true legend


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## marmalade76 (18 December 2012)

silu said:



			Just can't quite see KS being actively competed when the chosen rider will be very busy travelling to 3 day events etc all over the place so presume KS will be ridden mainly by the stable staff. I'm sure all us racing fans will be hoping for the best for the horse whatever his future may be.
		
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Totally agree and the main reason why I am so surprised at the choice of home.


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## Luci07 (18 December 2012)

Actually all this thread has really shown is the massive divide between people who support different disciplines. So the majority of the racing folks can't believe anyone else could care or understand a TB and the derogatory and incredibly ill informed opinions are not helpful. They are at the best, blooming lazy as no research has been done and worst, incendiary.

Have some respect for those at the top of their game, even if it is not " your" thing.  I follow, understand and DO event. I will go to a racing yard and its a different language. Do I think my way is better? No. Just different.


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## marmalade76 (18 December 2012)

Luci07 said:



			Actually all this thread has really shown is the massive divide between people who support different disciplines. So the majority of the racing folks can't believe anyone else could care or understand a TB and the derogatory and incredibly ill informed opinions are not helpful. They are at the best, blooming lazy as no research has been done and worst, incendiary.

Have some respect for those at the top of their game, even if it is not " your" thing.  I follow, understand and DO event. I will go to a racing yard and its a different language. Do I think my way is better? No. Just different.
		
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From my own personal POV (as someone who has as much interest in racing as I do eventing) I cannot see how the chosen rider will have time for the horse. She competes internationally in one of the most time consuming of equine sports. At his age, he's not going to go top in anything so I can't see the rider maintaining interest in him/investing time in him long term. I'm not saying that he won't be well looked after, happy, etc, I just find it rather odd. Of course, it's all good publicity for her, but can't help thinking that the novelty will wear off. As an eventer would you bother with a 12 year old ex-racer?


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## Luci07 (18 December 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			From my own personal POV (as someone who has as much interest in racing as I do eventing) I cannot see how the chosen rider will have time for the horse. She competes internationally in one of the most time consuming of equine sports. At his age, he's not going to go top in anything so I can't see the rider maintaining interest in him/investing time in him long term. I'm not saying that he won't be well looked after, happy, etc, I just find it rather odd. Of course, it's all good publicity for her, but can't help thinking that the novelty will wear off. As an eventer would you bother with a 12 year old ex-racer?
		
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Her job is to assess him under training with Yogi. His future path is not set in stone, he is being assessed to see what suits him but there is no suggestion that he was with Laura Permanantly..&#373;


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## Daffodil (18 December 2012)

God you lot!!

Anyone would think KS had 24/7/52 totally undivided attention from everyone employed at Ditcheat.    He was one (albeit the most important) of goodness knows how many horses in that yard and I very much doubt he is suffering from a lack of attention at LC's yard.

I find some of the utter drivel written on this subject quite incredible.


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## Girlracer (18 December 2012)

Oh no, an ex-racehorse is at an experienced, conscientious yard doing hacking and some schooling. How awful.


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## Louise12 (18 December 2012)

Some people completely miss the point.
Like Marmalade, I am interested in both eventing and racing (and have experience in top yards), and in both the standard of care is equal, so no qualms there. However, what is also equal is that horses come and horses go. An ambitious professional will only take such a horse because they are getting paid for it and it is good publicity. This is absolutely natural when the commodity they must promote to stay at the top is themselves. It is not a criticism. However much Collett admires Kauto Star, he is not special to her as he is to Ditcheat, and his eventual future is a whole lot more uncertain than if he retired where he was. The second most secure retirement home would have been a perfectly competent rider with less commitments, where he could have remained forever, which leads me to conclude that a desire for publicity by several parties (BHA included) has compromised what is best. Most importantly, senior staff at Ditcheat did not feel it was the correct move. These are not petty individuals  they persistently rehome horses to the best of their abilities, and Nicholls has been nothing other than generous in, for example, getting Harry Fry off the ground in his career, even though his Champion Hurdle winner inevitably went too.


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## marmalade76 (18 December 2012)

Louise12 said:



			Some people completely miss the point.
Like Marmalade, I am interested in both eventing and racing (and have experience in top yards), and in both the standard of care is equal, so no qualms there. However, what is also equal is that horses come and horses go. An ambitious professional will only take such a horse because they are getting paid for it and it is good publicity. This is absolutely natural when the commodity they must promote to stay at the top is themselves. It is not a criticism. However much Collett admires Kauto Star, he is not special to her as he is to Ditcheat, and his eventual future is a whole lot more uncertain than if he retired where he was. The second most secure retirement home would have been a perfectly competent rider with less commitments, where he could have remained forever, which leads me to conclude that a desire for publicity by several parties (BHA included) has compromised what is best. Most importantly, senior staff at Ditcheat did not feel it was the correct move. These are not petty individuals  they persistently rehome horses to the best of their abilities, and Nicholls has been nothing other than generous in, for example, getting Harry Fry off the ground in his career, even though his Champion Hurdle winner inevitably went too.
		
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Thank you, Louise, exactly what I meant but put so much better!

Luci, the only place I have read about the 'assessment plan' is here, and the words pillar and post spring to mind..


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## Louise12 (18 December 2012)

You're more than welcome, Marmalade, and it's very nice of you to say so, but I understood you exactly.


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## Dobiegirl (18 December 2012)

Well said Louise, if Kauto is staying at LCs yard to be assessed why couldnt it have been  done at Ditcheat. He will just have settled down at LCs then will be moved on again, what a way to treat a legend.


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## oldvic (18 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Well said Louise, if Kauto is staying at LCs yard to be assessed why couldnt it have been  done at Ditcheat. He will just have settled down at LCs then will be moved on again, what a way to treat a legend.
		
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Louise - very well put. There is no reason we can't have involvement to a high level in more than 1 discipline.

Dobiegirl - especially as Paul Nicholls' wife has evented to advanced level. I am sure Yogi would have been more than happy to go down there a few times to advise her/assess Kauto if required. We all now know that Kauto was moved due to the breakdown between PN and Clive Smith, not because Smith wants to see him more. If that was the case he would have gone to Surrey. If you are getting in a car to go and see a horse there is not a huge difference between  Membury and Ditcheat.


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## Fantasy_World (18 December 2012)

Some really good recent comments here and I agree with the latter posts.
I have said before and will say so again, I have no personal gripe with Laura or with dressage in general, or even eventing, since I like to watch both.
However my heart lies with racing, National Hunt racing and I am surprised by the decision made by his owner.
I was not aware of the riding capabilities of Nicholls's wife and I will admit to ignorance on my part.
Now that I am aware of this now, it makes the whole move from Ditcheat even more questionable.
I do really now believe that Kauto is being used as a pawn for publicity scoring for Smith and the Retraining of racehorses.
I am also questioning whether Kauto has indeed already been reschooled at Nicholls's yard?
My reasons for this is looking how relaxed he looks in photos that have been submitted by Laura on various social networks.
On what is believed to be his first schooling session at Laura's, Kauto is seen wearing a normal saddle ( not racing or exercise which he is accustomed to) and is seemingly working on the bit.
Now I understand some horses can be clever, and thus the transition for racehorse to riding horse can be smoother, but this appears to be too quick, and too relaxed.
I still believe that Smith is seeking further stardom for his horse hence why he has sent the horse to who he has. He is being assessed for a further career.
If it was that he could do Retraining of racehorse classes and other equestrian disciplines then why was Nicholls's wife overlooked? 
Was she not famous enough? 
If and when he does leave Laura it is meant to be in around a month's time after he has been assessed, so I agree with comments above about why send him somewhere for a month and then move on again.
Unless he is truly retired I see Kauto Star being passed around as fame and interest wavers


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## dressedkez (18 December 2012)

A bad week for Nicholls - losing Kauto is such a public way, and now Big Bucks and Alferof out for the season - in racing you are either up or down (very little in between) what a sport to be involved with............Will Grand Cruz return to hurdling now? Who do we think is going to be champion trainer this year - Henderson I suspect.


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## Starbucks (18 December 2012)

I really can't believe this and I don't have time to read it all.

But who the hell can voice to say what should or shouldn't be done with someones own horse??  He's a national hero I doubt anyone who gets their hands on him isn't going to do anything other than adore him!!!

Bad year for PN though - Denman, Neptune, Kauto gone... and now Big Bucks and Alferof out for the season!

No one lives a flying foo that Neptune went to a dressage home though do they?? He only came in third behind Denman and Kauto in a gold cup and then won the national.. obviously not good enough to stay at the PN yard........


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## Dobiegirl (18 December 2012)

!

No one lives a flying foo that Neptune went to a dressage home though do they?? He only came in third behind Denman and Kauto in a gold cup and then won the national.. obviously not good enough to stay at the PN yard........[/QUOTE]

What a load of horse poo.


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## Starbucks (18 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Some really good recent comments here and I agree with the latter posts.
I have said before and will say so again, I have no personal gripe with Laura or with dressage in general, or even eventing, since I like to watch both.
However my heart lies with racing, National Hunt racing and I am surprised by the decision made by his owner.
I was not aware of the riding capabilities of Nicholls's wife and I will admit to ignorance on my part.
Now that I am aware of this now, it makes the whole move from Ditcheat even more questionable.
I do really now believe that Kauto is being used as a pawn for publicity scoring for Smith and the Retraining of racehorses.
I am also questioning whether Kauto has indeed already been reschooled at Nicholls's yard?
My reasons for this is looking how relaxed he looks in photos that have been submitted by Laura on various social networks.
On what is believed to be his first schooling session at Laura's, Kauto is seen wearing a normal saddle ( not racing or exercise which he is accustomed to) and is seemingly working on the bit.
Now I understand some horses can be clever, and thus the transition for racehorse to riding horse can be smoother, but this appears to be too quick, and too relaxed.
I still believe that Smith is seeking further stardom for his horse hence why he has sent the horse to who he has. He is being assessed for a further career.
If it was that he could do Retraining of racehorse classes and other equestrian disciplines then why was Nicholls's wife overlooked? 
Was she not famous enough? 
If and when he does leave Laura it is meant to be in around a month's time after he has been assessed, so I agree with comments above about why send him somewhere for a month and then move on again.
Unless he is truly retired I see Kauto Star being passed around as fame and interest wavers 

Click to expand...

Or maybe PN is putting up a fight because he has no super stars in his yard now?


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## Starbucks (18 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			!

No one lives a flying foo that Neptune went to a dressage home though do they?? He only came in third behind Denman and Kauto in a gold cup and then won the national.. obviously not good enough to stay at the PN yard........
		
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What a load of horse poo.[/QUOTE]

I must have missed the 50 page debate about that?

ETS - I'm hoping you sensed the sarcasm in my tone!!


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## Dobiegirl (18 December 2012)

Starbucks said:



			What a load of horse poo.
		
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I must have missed the 50 page debate about that?

ETS - I'm hoping you sensed the sarcasm in my tone!![/QUOTE]

No I didnt miss it, Ive read your posts before


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## Starbucks (18 December 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			I must have missed the 50 page debate about that?

ETS - I'm hoping you sensed the sarcasm in my tone!!
		
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No I didnt miss it, Ive read your posts before[/QUOTE]

So that means you can't have a normal conversation?  I meant I must have missed the 50 page debate about Neptune - who no one seemed quite as bothered about. I'm not sure which part is horse poo?


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## oldvic (18 December 2012)

Starbucks said:



			No one lives a flying foo that Neptune went to a dressage home though do they?? He only came in third behind Denman and Kauto in a gold cup and then won the national.. obviously not good enough to stay at the PN yard........
		
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Neptune Collonges hasn't gone anywhere. His owner's daughter is riding him. It is not a dressage home as Lisa Hales is a show jumping rider who did a walk trot test on him. He is at home, where all the Hales' horses go when they are resting or retired.



Starbucks said:



			Or maybe PN is putting up a fight because he has no super stars in his yard now?
		
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So all this happened before Big Bucks and Al Ferof went wrong. They are hardly useless. Kauto Stone and Silviniaco Conti are only 6 and looking full of promise - already grade 1 winners this season. Zarkandar is 5 and has really improved. He has already named 3 possibles to deputise for Big Bucks in the World Hurdle and these are just off the top of my head after a long day! There are not many trainers who wouldn't dream of having just one of these in a lifetime. No, Paul Nicholls is secure in the knowledge that he has plenty of good and wealthy owners who can buy the ammunition that he wants.


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## Starbucks (18 December 2012)

oldvic said:



			Neptune Collonges hasn't gone anywhere. His owner's daughter is riding him. It is not a dressage home as Lisa Hales is a show jumping rider who did a walk trot test on him. He is at home, where all the Hales' horses go when they are resting or retired.



So all this happened before Big Bucks and Al Ferof went wrong. They are hardly useless. Kauto Stone and Silviniaco Conti are only 6 and looking full of promise - already grade 1 winners this season. Zarkandar is 5 and has really improved. He has already named 3 possibles to deputise for Big Bucks in the World Hurdle and these are just off the top of my head after a long day! There are not many trainers who wouldn't dream of having just one of these in a lifetime. No, Paul Nicholls is secure in the knowledge that he has plenty of good and wealthy owners who can buy the ammunition that he wants.
		
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I'll give you Silviniaco Conti although could never spell his name so glad you did!! Impressed last time he ran (although no expert!).

I really don't get the problem at all!!  Is it that people think he's going to have too hard of a life now or too soft??  If Hales' horses go back to his home then that's all good but Kauto is relatively young so why can't he do a job?  On the other hand Denman is lined up for some open team chasing which, even for him, is going to be a challenge! I think he will enjoy the change.

Although I did hear that on some sort of TV they were talking about Olympic Dressage for Kauto............... WTF!!!


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## Luci07 (19 December 2012)

We have had ex racehorses who have come in and settled the way KS has to different tack, some basic training so it's not that much of a stretch! The biggest challenge is normally teaching them to stand at a block for mounting or coming off planet zog when travelling as they think they are racing.  The poster who commented that they felt KS must have already been started is wrong. Of course it can go that way, and does. You must don't know till they get home. Some will settle quickly, some take up to a year..


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## TrasaM (19 December 2012)

Starbucks said:



			I really can't believe this and I don't have time to read it all.

But who the hell can voice to say what should or shouldn't be done with someones own horse??  He's a national hero I doubt anyone who gets their hands on him isn't going to do anything other than adore him!!!
		
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Made the same point about 20+ pages ago. So much fuss when no one knows for sure what the outcome will be. Meanwhile by all accounts horse is healthy and happy. What's the problem ?


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## Fantasy_World (19 December 2012)

Luci07 said:



			We have had ex racehorses who have come in and settled the way KS has to different tack, some basic training so it's not that much of a stretch! The biggest challenge is normally teaching them to stand at a block for mounting or coming off planet zog when travelling as they think they are racing.  The poster who commented that they felt KS must have already been started is wrong. Of course it can go that way, and does. You must don't know till they get home. Some will settle quickly, some take up to a year..
		
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How do you know I was wrong? 
For all we know he may have had some 'normal' riding while at Nicholls's yard.


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## cptrayes (19 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			How do you know I was wrong? 
For all we know he may have had some 'normal' riding while at Nicholls's yard.
		
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FW she didn't say you were wrong that he had been started, she said you were wrong that he MUST have been started.

I have also had half a dozen ex racers from auction and put a GP saddle on and hacked out next day with no problems. One even still had his aluminium race plates on


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## Fantasy_World (19 December 2012)

Ah but Kauto Star is no ordinary ex racer he is a fully tuned chaser capable of speed and winning from 2miles to 3 miles two and a half furlongs. 
He possesses speed and stamina and is a winner of numerous Grade One chases.
He is not the average failed ex racer who ends up on the retraining bandwagon.
I still believe he has had some reschooling at Nicholls's yard prior to leaving.


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## cptrayes (19 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Ah but Kauto Star is no ordinary ex racer he is a fully tuned chaser capable of speed and winning from 2miles to 3 miles two and a half furlongs. 
He possesses speed and stamina and is a winner of numerous Grade One chases.
He is not the average failed ex racer who ends up on the retraining bandwagon.
I still believe he has had some reschooling at Nicholls's yard prior to leaving.
		
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I don't believe that there is anything about Kauto Star that makes it any more difficult to retrain to a GP saddle and longer stirrups than any other fit racehorse.

Quite the reverse. My own experience of them is that flat racers which are race fit are, in general, much more twitchy than the heavier built and taller chasers.  

I begin to understand where you are coming from, though. It's clearly very important to you to believe that if he is finding the change of tack and work easy, then it must be because Ditcheat started it. 

While the rest of us know that he is just a horse, you seem to think that he is some kind of mystical being who only Ditcheat can manage. For his sake, I am glad that you are wrong.


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## be positive (19 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			How do you know I was wrong? 
For all we know he may have had some 'normal' riding while at Nicholls's yard.
		
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What do you  mean by "normal" riding , it is usual for the horses at Ditcheat and most NH yards to hack down the roads with the staff riding with fairly long stirrups, if they are just doing roadwork they stay long or some will shorten them up as they get to the gallops. They tend to go in some sort of outline, if thats what you want to call it, by walking properly on the roads they will build up correct muscles and the good riders will know this. 
All horses in training will, I hope, have done weeks of walking before they start fast work, plenty of time for a horse to be able to learn the basics, they may not have a capable rider on them or anyone that cares enough but I would expect senior staff members in any top yard to be riding the best horses and these  horses to actually be easier to retrain than the poor quality horses from the less successful yards.


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## Luci07 (19 December 2012)

And LC has kept saying what a great job PN has done with KS and how good the horse is feeling. My old chaser, who came out of a very good NH yard switched over very easily.


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## Scarlett (19 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Ah but Kauto Star is no ordinary ex racer he is a fully tuned chaser capable of speed and winning from 2miles to 3 miles two and a half furlongs. 
He possesses speed and stamina and is a winner of numerous Grade One chases.
He is not the average failed ex racer who ends up on the retraining bandwagon.
I still believe he has had some reschooling at Nicholls's yard prior to leaving.
		
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.... and let me guess his urine can cure cancer and his droppings are pure gold? Yes?

FFS he is a HORSE! Not a mythical creature that can only exist within a certain world or he evaporates. A HORSE, just like all the others. Retraining him, with his history, will be the same sort of challenge as any horse that was in racing his length of time, it may not be easy but it doesn't mean that just because its him it has to be hard. 

To be surprised at the fact he has settled and is accepting of a new way of riding is naive and stupid. To also assume he is only doing well because he had already started reschooling, thus taking away from his new rider and regime, is also offensive. LC is no regular numpty, she is a world class event rider with a history in TB's and racehorses, you and I can only dream of being as capable as her.

A trainer I'm involved with once had a lovely big chaser mare, she was a regular winner over all distances and in all conditions. The day after I watched her come second in a 3mile top quality chase I hacked her out for him. She wore a normal bridle and I used a 'normal' saddle, Kieffer jump saddle IIRC, and we walked and trotted around the local roads and tracks on our own, she understood the aids and what my hand wanted when I asked her to take a contact. She was a highly tuned chaser at the top of her game, yet she could easily have been someones smart riding horse out for a morning hack. 

I've taken on several exracehorses and never had an issue putting a normal saddle on and getting on with it.


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## silu (19 December 2012)

I have been a huge racing fan all my 65 years and apart from Arkle who I was lucky enough to see race there has not been another NH horse as famous as Kauto with the general public, bar possibly Red Rum and Desert Orchid (Dawn Run, near, in Ireland anyway). I'm not surprised in the slightest that there has been a outcry over his future and surely this is a normal human emotion as Kauto has given years of enjoyment to millions. Whether the horse is fussed where his future lies only he knows!
The more this story rumbles on the more I'm convinced that publicity has had a fair amount of influence on his current stabling arrangements...very successful has it not? To move the horse to an event rider to be assessed for dressage?Maybe professional dressage riders aren't considered capable of sitting on a racehorse!!!!! Couple of dressage riders I know are more than capable.
Do people really think that Clive Smith is going to turn up at some low level dressage competitions and visit him on a weekly basis. I have my doubts on that 1.
Perhaps when the ballyhoo has calmed down and he's served his purpose he'll be shunted on to a vaulter/carriage driver to be assessed who could do with some publicity! All I'm interested in is the horse having a settled LONG term home doing something or nothing at all, he owes nothing to nobody, where he will get the personal attention he deserves.Glad to read there are a few others who have posted who appear on the same wavelength.


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## marmalade76 (19 December 2012)

silu said:



			Glad to read there are a few others who have posted who appear on the same wavelength.
		
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Yep, I am, totally.


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## Clodagh (19 December 2012)

Starbucks said:



			Although I did hear that on some sort of TV they were talking about Olympic Dressage for Kauto............... WTF!!!
		
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The TV media seem a little confused about what makes a top dressage horse. There was also a long article asking why he wasn't going to stud, if Frankel was why not Kauto. They seemed to miss the fact that he might struggle in a basic manner...


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## Louise12 (19 December 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			Yep, I am, totally.
		
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Likewise. And you saw Arkle! Now there was a horse that had a great retirement, albeit cut short as a result of his injury. He might have been a handful on the track, but his owner rode him around her farm like an old hunter


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## millhouse (19 December 2012)

Thank God for owners such as Anne Duchess of Westminster.


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## Maesfen (19 December 2012)

millhouse said:



			Thank God for owners such as Anne Duchess of Westminster.
		
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Too right, a genuine lady very sadly missed.  I know and have looked after  several of her ex horses and if they were suitable, they went to genuine hunting homes where they still had the best of care and were able to let their hair down enjoying their 'retirement',


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## TarrSteps (19 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			How do you know I was wrong? 
For all we know he may have had some 'normal' riding while at Nicholls's yard.
		
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She's not saying you're wrong, she's saying quite a few horses, especially ones that have been well started and well ridden can go in a "riding horse way" almost immediately.  Of course they are not strong enough to go straight out to do a test, and even very well started ones tend to have contact issues, but that's not going to show in a few photos.  The fact that he's not going like a possessed giraffe doesn't mean anything more than he's been and continues to be, well ridden.  It also doesn't mean he's a natural dressage talent.  It just means what it means in that second.

I know some lovely competition riders who ride out - there are a few on this board who ride for very high profile trainers! - and would educate whatever they were sitting on without thinking about it.  As would any good stable jockey.


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## cptrayes (19 December 2012)

To move the horse to an event rider to be assessed for dressage?Maybe professional dressage riders aren't considered capable of sitting on a racehorse!!!!! Couple of dressage riders I know are more than capable..
		
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Is it beyond the wit of every naysayer on this forum to realise that the press have picked up the word "dressage" as being the work furthest possible away from what the horse does now and are selectively using it to make headlines?

If you wanted to have an ex racer assessed for what future career he might most take to, where would you send him???????

THAT'S RIGHT!

A really decent three day event rider who can test him for dressage, showjumping and cross country without him even leaving home, never mind changing riders. 

And that's where he is.


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## Fantasy_World (19 December 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			Yep, I am, totally.
		
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Me too


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## christine48 (19 December 2012)

ChristmasPTrees said:



			Is it beyond the wit of every naysayer on this forum to realise that the press have picked up the word "dressage" as being the work furthest possible away from what the horse does now and are selectively using it to make headlines?

If you wanted to have an ex racer assessed for what future career he might most take to, where would you send him???????

THAT'S RIGHT!

A really decent three day event rider who can test him for dressage, showjumping and cross country without him even leaving home, never mind changing riders. 

And that's where he is.
		
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Very well said!!


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## maccachic (19 December 2012)

??  Wow interesting comments all horses are different the majority of mine have been ex racers all settle quickly one who wanted to be a show pony placed in every class at a show after 1 month off the track.


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## Louise12 (20 December 2012)

I must say I haven't read anywhere that the horse is being trained for anything other than dressage. The owner said dressage, the trainer said dressage, Breisner and the BHA said dressage. Forgive me if I am mistaken, but I understood that the only reason he ended up with Collett was in a chain through Smith-Arbuthnot-Breisner, hence the perplexing nature of the decision


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## cptrayes (20 December 2012)

I you have ever given an interview to the press then you will know that what is quoted is rarely what is actually said.


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## Louise12 (20 December 2012)

...but I've seen the interviews with the owner on RUK. Dressage.


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## cptrayes (20 December 2012)

Louise12 said:



			...but I've seen the interviews with the owner on RUK. Dressage.
		
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And this is a direct quote from Yogi, by the look of it 




			&#8220;It is a pleasure and privilege to have been asked to assess Kauto Star with a view to finding him an alternative activity now he is retired from racing,&#8221; Breisner said.
		
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Don't forget the owner probably knows nothing about horses outside racing either, and is equally likely to have latched onto the dressage word because the horse already knows how to jump and he would not think that he needs assessing for SJ or XC


The quote was in a RacingUK article headlined




			Dressage not only option for Kauto Star
		
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## Fantasy_World (20 December 2012)

ChristmasPTrees said:



			I you have ever given an interview to the press then you will know that what is quoted is rarely what is actually said.
		
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The gutter press maybe but not the racing press..... do not taint all journalists with the same brush thankyou!


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## cptrayes (20 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			The gutter press maybe but not the racing press..... do not taint all journalists with the same brush thankyou!
		
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Blimey! First Kauto is some mystical beast that only Ditcheat can manage, and now there are a select band of journalists who never misinterpret anything or make up stories.

FW can you tell me what planet you live on, because it certainly isn't the same one as me.  A small case of nominative determinism going on here I think


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## Fantasy_World (20 December 2012)

ChristmasPTrees said:



			And this is a direct quote from Yogi, by the look of it 



Don't forget the owner probably knows nothing about horses outside racing either, and is equally likely to have latched onto the dressage word because the horse already knows how to jump and he would not think that he needs assessing for SJ or XC


The quote was in a RacingUK article headlined
		
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Do you not think then that this year's Olympics and how well the Brits faired in dressage in both the Olympic games and the Para Olympic games had an influence?
True the owner appears to have very little understanding of horses outside racing and horses in general to be honest.
The horse can jump National Hunt fences and even then he was not foot perfect. Remember the King George in 2008 and 2011. Also the Cheltenham Gold Cup of 2010. He unshipped his rider in the Betfair chase in 2008. Fell in the 2006 Queen Mother chase. At Exeter in Jan 2005 he fell and in the days when remounting was allowed following a fall he was ridden out for second place on the day that he suffered an injury, a fracture to be exact.
True he has won many races and been placed in between, but who is saying that the horse knows how to jump? 
Jumping National Hunt fences is far different to showjumping poles and fillers and cross country courses. 
A horse can brush through a fence or land and recover and lose impetus and yet still place or win, but the same can not be afforded to similar mistakes over poles or other types of fences/jumps. They will either be knocked down resulting in faults, slow the horse down resulting in time faults or even make the horse unable to jump the next obstacle on the correct stride/angle.
Similar can be said of the cross country courses, where time is again an issue. 
Such mistakes would be highly penalised.
It does not matter how long it takes a horse to finish a National Hunt race, the fastest will clearly be the winner so long as the jockey is on board.
Those who finish but are not as fast will either be in the frame or out of it.
On a showjumping or cross country course time is a major issue.
So I would not say that Kauto knows how to jump. 
He is able to jump National Hunt fences and unless he has been tried over poles at Ditcheat then no one knows if he is able to jump them clearly and at speed.


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## Fantasy_World (20 December 2012)

ChristmasPTrees said:



			Blimey! First Kauto is some mystical beast that only Ditcheat can manage, and now there are a select band of journalists who never misinterpret anything or make up stories.

FW can you tell me what planet you live on, because it certainly isn't the same one as me.  A small case of nominative determinism going on here I think 

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I can happily say I live on Earth or at least that is where gravity keeps me 
The racing press such as Racing Post etc do not make up stories, why would they? 
I know some of their journalists personally and have worked alongside them.

As for the other tabloid and broadsheet press then I beg to differ. 
We all know that scandal sells newspapers.

In the case of Kauto Star there are two papers I would read to hear about his progress or any fallout. The Racing Post and the online Sporting Life.
I do like the Horse and Hound though which is a magazine, and The Telegraph too but as for any other daily publication I am not bothered what they say or do not say.


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## Dobiegirl (20 December 2012)

ChristmasPTrees said:



			Blimey! First Kauto is some mystical beast that only Ditcheat can manage, and now there are a select band of journalists who never misinterpret anything or make up stories.

FW can you tell me what planet you live on, because it certainly isn't the same one as me.  A small case of nominative determinism going on here I think 

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FW lives on this planet, you though reside in a whole different galaxy, nominative determination what the hell does that mean?

The RP is the first stop for any news on racing and their journalists are second to none, why would they make stuff up, they would lose credability and no trainers,owners or jockeys would speak to them ever again.

You say Clive Smith probabley knows nothing outside racing, how do you know that, that is just your opinion and this is where we differ.


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## Louise12 (20 December 2012)

Unfortunately discussions tend to get heated when we start to discuss what we think people might mean, because we all infer different things. I absolutely agree that Clive Smith does not seem to understand the difference between disciplines, and since we do not trust the press we will treat the quote from Breisner with equal scepticism, in the interests of consistency. Dressage or eventing is irrelevant to my view, so people may infer either with reference to my opinion


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## christine48 (20 December 2012)

There is no reason why, after assessment that KS cannot be re homed to do some low level dressage, hacking etc. I doubt his owner is expecting him to be the next Valegro, just wants him to have another job with no pressure.


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## oldvic (20 December 2012)

The trouble is that the riders who want to do low level dressage and hack would find him quite a challenge. He has been known to keep his riders on their toes all his life and, with a horse of that class, things happen very quickly. To me it is interesting that Laura has said she is leading him at Kempton.


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## silu (20 December 2012)

Not sure the choice of who is leading Kauto at Kempton will go down very well with racing fans when you remember who had the honour of leading the likes of Dessie...or riding him, remember well Richard Dunwoody getting carted by Dessie during 1 parade and many people roaring with laughter at the old boy having fun, while taking the pi..


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## Amymay (21 December 2012)

oldvic said:



			To me it is interesting that Laura has said she is leading him at Kempton.
		
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Now that is plain stupid.  But I suppose there's no one else to do it


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## Fantasy_World (21 December 2012)

oldvic said:



			The trouble is that the riders who want to do low level dressage and hack would find him quite a challenge. He has been known to keep his riders on their toes all his life and, with a horse of that class, things happen very quickly. To me it is interesting that Laura has said she is leading him at Kempton.
		
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You're kidding right? 
So someone who has known the horse, for what five minutes will be leading him for what will probably be his last National Hunt parade at a track where he won 5 King George's and they are not even connected with racing at all........ shameful  
It would be interesting who made this decision?


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## Amymay (21 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			You're kidding right? 
So someone who has known the horse, for what five minutes will be leading him for what will probably be his last National Hunt parade at a track where he won 5 King George's and they are not even connected with racing at all........ shameful  
It would be interesting who made this decision?
		
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I agree with you Fantasy_World.  But I can't imagine PN letting his lad lead the horse.  But it sure is one interesting (and let's hope, not disastrous) decision.


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## Elf On A Shelf (21 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			You're kidding right? 
So someone who has known the horse, for what five minutes will be leading him for what will probably be his last National Hunt parade at a track where he won 5 King George's and they are not even connected with racing at all........ shameful  
It would be interesting who made this decision?
		
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With all that has gone on between trainer, owner and staff I am sure that all would be quite happy for the usual proceedings to take place where his lass leads him up BUT it would seem too awkward for that to happen. 

Either which way it will be interesting.


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## Maesfen (21 December 2012)

christine48 said:



			There is no reason why, after assessment that KS cannot be re homed to do some low level dressage, hacking etc. I doubt his owner is expecting him to be the next Valegro, just wants him to have another job with no pressure.
		
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Just as longs as it's still in the limelight so he can get his (owner's) recognition. 



silu said:



			Not sure the choice of who is leading Kauto at Kempton will go down very well with racing fans when you remember who had the honour of leading the likes of Dessie...or riding him, remember well Richard Dunwoody getting carted by Dessie during 1 parade and many people roaring with laughter at the old boy having fun, while taking the pi..
		
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Very well remembered, in fact what I probably remember most of Dessie; would be a great shame if the last memory they have of Kauto is a tame lead past the stands when there are those fully capable of riding him - and possibly showing off his new dressage style but it doesn't sound as if LC thinks she can cope with him under saddle which doesn't fill me with the greatest confidence for the horse.

I can't help but totally agree with a friend who is very well connected with racing and wrote in her recent blog -

* I do sympathise with champion trainer Paul Nicholls and his team as they must be gutted to lose such a stable star and friend and must feel that they have let the old horse down. If KS is not happy in his new career then hopefully the highly respected persons that are entrusted with his new career wiill quickly realise this and another plan will be made.

Where KS's owner fits into this I am not sure, as although he has paid all the bills and received a huge amount of prize money and pleasure in return - he would be the least likely to know what the horse would or would not enjoy and that is the problem!*



Fantasy_World said:



			You're kidding right? 
So someone who has known the horse, for what five minutes will be leading him for what will probably be his last National Hunt parade at a track where he won 5 King George's and they are not even connected with racing at all........ shameful  
It would be interesting who made this decision?
		
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Couldn't agree more.  I just hope KS stays safe in what will be an electric charged atmosphere.


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## Louise12 (21 December 2012)

Completely agree with recent posts. Clifford Baker rode the horse at Haydock, and he is part and parcel of the Kauto Star story. He fits. I know that I will have very mixed emotions watching someone else lead him up.


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## PolarSkye (21 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			You're kidding right? 
So someone who has known the horse, for what five minutes will be leading him for what will probably be his last National Hunt parade at a track where he won 5 King George's and they are not even connected with racing at all........ shameful  
It would be interesting who made this decision?
		
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Shameful?  Sigh.  

As for LC not being connected with racing at all - doesn't she ride out for a reasonably successful trainer (name escapes me at the moment) which is why YB chose her continue Kauto Star's education.

Isn't it just possible that connections felt that it wouldn't it be all that good for the horse's brain to be ridden at the track while they're trying to assess him for another job/career?  He's not been gone from PN's yard very long - I'd have thought being ridden at Kempton may blow his brain a little . . . and for what?  

Personally, I think LC has been very gracious to agree to the horse taking part in the parade at all . . . 

. . . all this feather spitting is most unedifying.  

P


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## PolarSkye (21 December 2012)

Louise12 said:



			Completely agree with recent posts. Clifford Baker rode the horse at Haydock, and he is part and parcel of the Kauto Star story. He fits. I know that I will have very mixed emotions watching someone else lead him up.
		
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Clifford Baker works for Paul Nichols, not Laura Collett.  Kauto Star's story has moved on . . . that's life with horses.  Are you suggesting that Edward Gal should continue to ride Totilas since he's been sold?  It amounts to the same thing.

Horses - ALL types of horses . . . top racehorses, eventers, SJers and much-loved family pets - change hands and move yards all the time.   All that has happened here is that Kauto Star's owner has decided to move his horse from one yard to another . . . nothing more and nothing less.  It is his prerogative to do so.  Change of yard means change of carers.  End of.  

P


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## Louise12 (21 December 2012)

I respect your opinion. I can see why you think that way.


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## Clarew22 (21 December 2012)

I think oldvic meant it was interesting she was leading him rather than riding him


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## silu (21 December 2012)

Sorry Polar Express but your comparison to Tortilas/Edward Gal, are you having a laugh!!!??? Kauto isn't being competed on Boxing Day, he is being paraded for the pleasure or all the millions of racing fans who know and love him. Just how many racing fans will have even heard of Laura Collett or Yogi for that matter? He only began to get mentioned by the media and therefore got "known" to Jo public through his attempts to help Long Run's jumping.

Yet more publicity seeking and if I'd had anything personally to do with Kauto I'd be spitting feathers that a 22/23 year old kid with no real or long term connection with racing was getting the honour of leading Kauto for perhaps the last time in front of the massive crowds of racing fans.It's WORSE than say the likes of Tom Daly getting the honour of lighting the Olympic flame before Steve Redgrave.


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## Caledonia (21 December 2012)

PolarExpress said:



			Horses - ALL types of horses . . . top racehorses, eventers, SJers and much-loved family pets - change hands and move yards all the time.   All that has happened here is that Kauto Star's owner has decided to move his horse from one yard to another . . . nothing more and nothing less.  It is his prerogative to do so.  Change of yard means change of carers.  End of.  

P
		
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You clearly have no comprehension of what this horse is.


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## cptrayes (21 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			You clearly have no comprehension of what this horse is.
		
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He is an unwitting pawn in a multi-million pound industry to generate revenues and taxes from betting, to which end his life was risked far and above the risks incurred in any other horse sport in this country. Thankfully, he came through, many don't.

If he'd failed, no-one would be making this fuss about whether he was right to be moved or not. He'd either have been retrained or shot.

He's exactly the same horse as he would have been if he had been a few seconds slower on the racecourse.


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## marmalade76 (21 December 2012)

PolarExpress said:



			Personally, I think LC has been very gracious to agree to the horse taking part in the parade at all . . . 



P
		
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Are you serious??

I doubt very much that it is her dicision to make, but even if it were, I don't suppose she'd miss it for the world, all the photograhers, spectators, TV cameras....


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## Caledonia (21 December 2012)

ChristmasPTrees said:



			He is an unwitting pawn in a multi-million pound industry to generate revenues and taxes from betting, to which end his life was risked far and above the risks incurred in any other horse sport in this country. Thankfully, he came through, many don't.

If he'd failed, no-one would be making this fuss about whether he was right to be moved or not. He'd either have been retrained or shot.

He's exactly the same horse as he would have been if he had been a few seconds slower on the racecourse.
		
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No, he's a hugely adored racehorse, who is a living legend. And what a ridiculous thing to say - of course he's not the same horse as he would have been if he was slower. Horses know when they win, they know when people adore them, they know when they're special. 

I get you don't like racing. But don't be so petty as to demean him because of your bias. 

I believe in integrity, fair play and loyalty. I'm sickened that the lack of those qualities in the owner has made this horse leave everything he knows.


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## Caledonia (21 December 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			Are you serious??

I doubt very much that it is her dicision to make, but even if it were, I don't suppose she'd miss it for the world, all the photograhers, spectators, TV cameras....
		
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Quite!


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## KautoStar1 (21 December 2012)

Good god, you'd think the horse had been sent to Beeston market & was about to end up in a tin of Chappie.  Some of the comments on here are quite unbelievable. He has a lovely new home with superb facilities & is being assessed by top professionals.  Who knows, he may be enjoying himself learning something new & being in a different environment.   And the only person who has denied the racing public of seeing Kauto parade for the last time with the Ditcheat Team is Paul Nicholls by his fit of pique in having the horse removed from his yard before Boxing Day.


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## Caledonia (21 December 2012)

KautoStar1 said:



			Good god, you'd think the horse had been sent to Beeston market & was about to end up in a tin of Chappie.  Some of the comments on here are quite unbelievable. He has a lovely new home with superb facilities & is being assessed by top professionals.  Who knows, he may be enjoying himself learning something new & being in a different environment.   And the only person who has denied the racing public of seeing Kauto parade for the last time with the Ditcheat Team is Paul Nicholls by his fit of pique in having the horse removed from his yard before Boxing Day.
		
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Just because you chose his name as a moniker does not mean you are any more clued up than others.


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## Alec Swan (21 December 2012)

KS1,

I do rather take your point! 

I suspect that from his former trainer,  and his owner,  there has been a sorry display of bad manners,  and none of them have displayed themselves in a particularly appealing light.

The horse,  as you you say,  is in the best of hands.  He would be,  but for the fact that he's a horse out of training,  he's probably a little quirky,  and however a dressage yard conducts its daily life,  both he,  and his knew yard,  may be in for a surprise!  I'm sure that he'll be safe,  but were I in Smith's shoes,  I wouldn't have behaved as he has.  I'd have given greater thought to the horse,  just as Nicholls may have.

Alec.


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## KautoStar1 (21 December 2012)

Never said I was "clued up" about it all as you say, but some people on here are behaving as if they definately are & that they know what's best for the horse.    The owner & trainer have had a spat and the owner has exercised his right to remove the horse.  At least he has placed the horse with people who have the experience to deal with him properly and ensure his welfare is of top priority.


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## cptrayes (21 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			No, he's a hugely adored racehorse, who is a living legend.
		
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That's the one in people's heads. The one who poos and wees in his own bed is a different creature altogether.


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## justabob (21 December 2012)

Ok............ Clive Smith is a bit of a ****, The Pipes can confirm. PN is volatile and has confirmed this on C4 racing. Kauto Star has gone to a perfect stable to see if he can do another fecking job. The bleddy end.  Just to add to you all, would you really, really want him ??????


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## PolarSkye (21 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			You clearly have no comprehension of what this horse is.
		
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He's a horse.  He isn't dipped in gold, or capable of curing cancer.  He's a horse.  Yes, he's a very successful racehorse . . . but at the end of the day he is an equine with pretty basic needs . . . feed, water, appropriate bedding, exercise, love, kindness . . . just like EVERY OTHER equine on the planet.  Yes, his racing record is truly remarkable.  Yes, he's worth millions.  Yes, he's special (as a racehorse).  But he's still a HORSE.

P


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## PolarSkye (21 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Quite!
		
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Cloud cuckoo land . . . may I show you a brochure?

P


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## Daffodil (21 December 2012)

Kauto Star 1:   At long last, someone is talking some common sense.


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## Alec Swan (21 December 2012)

PolarExpress said:



			He's a horse.  He isn't dipped in gold, or capable of curing cancer.  He's a horse.  Yes, he's a very successful racehorse . . . but at the end of the day he is an equine with pretty basic needs . . . feed, water, appropriate bedding, exercise, love, kindness . . . just like EVERY OTHER equine on the planet.  Yes, his racing record is truly remarkable.  Yes, he's worth millions.  Yes, he's special (as a racehorse).  But he's still a HORSE.

P
		
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Kauto Star is history.  He isn't Sea The Stars,  he isn't Frankel,  he's a horse,  and I doubt that we will see his like,  for many years.  Period .

Alec.


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## Caledonia (22 December 2012)

PolarExpress said:



			Cloud cuckoo land . . . may I show you a brochure?

P
		
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A brochure for what?


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## Caledonia (22 December 2012)

justabob said:



			Ok............ Clive Smith is a bit of a ****, The Pipes can confirm. PN is volatile and has confirmed this on C4 racing. Kauto Star has gone to a perfect stable to see if he can do another fecking job. The bleddy end.  Just to add to you all, would you really, really want him ??????
		
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Where did I say I wanted him? 

I wanted the horse to stay in the environment he's know all his competitive life, with people who care about him. No idea why you all seem to think this is a BAD THING.


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## cptrayes (22 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Where did I say I wanted him? 

I wanted the horse to stay in the environment he's know all his competitive life, with people who care about him. No idea why you all seem to think this is a BAD THING. 

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I think I've told you before but I'll list it clearly. I think it is a bad thing because:

- he will not have regular turnout at Ditcheat, I have been informed that no horses do. When he is no longer a superfit athlete I believe  that this will matter even more than it does now. 

- he will become less valued the older he gets, and be subject to  the normal turnover of the 50 staff in that racing yard (not the top few that appear in the brochure, they aren't mucking him out and grooming him). His continuity of care by people who think of him as the lower level staff do now cannot in any way be guaranteed. I would prefer to see him in a home looked after primarily by one person who he knows loves him. 

- he will be the stable "hack" and I think that a Riding Club home will most likely offer him a far more stimulating retirement than that and opening supermarkets as  a PR tool.

and as a fortuitous side effect:

- he can do immense good for other racehorses that are not lucky enough to have been so fast, and therefore so loved, by being seen out and about doing ordinary horse stuff, showing that ex racers make good riding horses.


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## Alec Swan (22 December 2012)

An incisive and perhaps a prophetically accurate post. 

Alec.


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## Louise12 (22 December 2012)

Once again, so many people missing the point. As the likes of Polar Express say, horses come and go, even beloved pets. I said at the time that I respect this opinion. However, people must also respect that we do not all agree with that. I have a completely different view where beloved pets are concerned. Kauto Star is extremely special to Ditcheat, and they offered him a home for life. It is far from incisive and prophetic to list out concerns in such a derogatory fashion. If a horse has never been special to you then that is absolutely fine, but for those of us that they have, then all we can say is that they remain special forever, not temporarily. You will just have to trust us on that until it happens to you. The whole point of the problem here is that Kauto Star had a home, and he should have remained there


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## cptrayes (22 December 2012)

Louise12 said:



			If a horse has never been special to you then that is absolutely fine, but for those of us that they have, then all we can say is that they remain special forever, not temporarily.
		
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He is special to the yard. Yes. He is special to the person who mucks him out/grooms him  now, paid minimum wage to do hard work in hard weather. Who will be mucking him out and grooming him next year?

I am told, possibly incorrectly but I believe not, that the average time spent by a stable lad on one of his/her charges at Ditcheat is 15 minutes. If that is correct, how "special" is that? 




			If a horse has never been special to you then that is absolutely fine, but for those of us that they have, then all we can say is that they remain special forever, not temporarily. You will just have to trust us on that until it happens to you. The whole point of the problem here is that Kauto Star had a home, and he should have remained there
		
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I don't agree with you and in fact your suggestion that none of us has horses that are special to us is laughable. All my horses are special to me and none of them has as little personal care as Kauto Star will have as a 12, 13, 15, 18, 22 ......  year old has-been. I wish for him what my horses have - turnout with other horses, variety in his life and attention focussed on him by one main carer who loves him for himself, not for trophies that he won them in the past.


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## oldvic (22 December 2012)

ChristmasPTrees said:



			He is special to the yard. Yes. He is special to the person who mucks him out/grooms him  now, paid minimum wage to do hard work in hard weather. Who will be mucking him out and grooming him next year?


How do you know what they are paid? Many yards pay more than the minimum wage (for stable staff which is more than the national minimum). When you have a horse of that calibre in the yard they are special to more than just the person who looks after them. Granted there may be a very small minority who don't feel it but some horses get into the hearts of many - look at the feeling that he has created amongst people who have never set eyes on him in the flesh let alone been part of his team. 



I am told, possibly incorrectly but I believe not, that the average time spent by a stable lad on one of his/her charges at Ditcheat is 15 minutes. If that is correct, how "special" .
		
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That would be the same in many busy competition yards where the system is often different - the horses are done by whoever is available rather than the same person every day. Also they are often mucked out while they are out. In a busy yard there is not the luxury of time to fiddle, you have to get the job done or you will be there all night. In racing the lads tend to split their time but spend longer on 1 or 2 horses a night in a rota depending on if they have "spares"  due to people away from the yard racing.


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## Starbucks (22 December 2012)

I still can't believe peoples reaction to this!!  But I guess it's nice that so many people care about the horse!

I totally disagree with what a lot of you are saying:

A)	With the shock that hes actually settling into normal life quite well: PN is a top trainer and I doubt he gets the results he does from just sending his horses up the gallops every day with random crap riders??  I would be surprised if he hasnt been schooled and jumped over poles in a normal saddle fairly regularly, especially as he isnt the most consistent jumper. 
B)	As amazing as he is, he doesnt know that!  Just because hes a star it doesnt mean that hes going to be super sharp, super naughty or anything along those lines. In fact I would think the opposite.  Hes an experienced horse and used to being out and about in exciting situations. Much more likely to settle more quickly into a competition career than a 5yo who gets sacked off because he was miles behind in his first bumper.  Im a Denman fan, but I think he is a prime example of a top horse who can do another job after racing.  
C)	Im all about quality of life and my main worry with racing is not the Grand National, it isnt that horse that get injured or killed, its the surplus that dont make the grade and end up worthless.  Surely if high profile horses like Denman and KS can prove themselves as being useful in other disciplines then that has to be a good thing?? Denman has made his point being a hunter, IMO if KS did well in a prelim test, or a BE90, that would be fantastic!
D)	PN is a trainer, if he wants to keep horses for life then Im sorry, but hell have to own them!!  I doubt he is so concerned about the less talented horses in his yard..
E)	Has anyone thought that KS might actually enjoy doing something different?? He obviously tries his heart out and I think it would be naive to think he couldnt enjoy and do well at something else
F)	Personally, I would have liked him to go hunting and have some fun, BUT I DONT KNOW THE HORSE, hes maybe too delicate, too sharp, or maybe just not sound enough but surely this is why the owner has put him in the safe hands of Yogi, who completely knows what he is on about.  

I do not get the issue!!!


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## Daffodil (22 December 2012)

Exactly, Starbucks, perfectly put


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## Echo Bravo (22 December 2012)

But lets face it he's no world beater except in the NH field, he's not going to make a dressage/eventer and to be honest it's only the racing public that love him. I'd have love to see him stay where he was, but there you go. The person that says that the racehorses only have 15 mins each should hang their head in shame, as I've seen less time spent on young stock at a welsh stud, believe me.


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## PucciNPoni (23 December 2012)

What an utterly bizarre thread.  I can't believe how many emotive posts there are villifying dressage and the notion that an ex-race-horse (no matter how famous) shouldn't go on to do another career.  

Those of you who are so weirdly opposed, do you ever stop to think that this is a really good thing for racehorses in general, and the future of those who retire from racing because such a public one goes on to do something else?  

Dressage horses aern't all doomed to just do endless circles in rollkur and kept stabled 24/7 .  THere are plenty who go hacking, hunting, show jumping, galloping and living out.  Go on to the BD forums and you'll see plenty of this type of lifestyle discussed.  Lets face it KS isn't going to be a GP horse most likely - but he'll hopefull get out there and show the world that ex-race horses can and do go on to do other things and dressage is perhaps what he might be most suited to.

Give it up you lot.


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## Caledonia (23 December 2012)

PucciNPoni said:



			What an utterly bizarre thread.  I can't believe how many emotive posts there are villifying dressage and the notion that an ex-race-horse (no matter how famous) shouldn't go on to do another career.  

Those of you who are so weirdly opposed, do you ever stop to think that this is a really good thing for racehorses in general, and the future of those who retire from racing because such a public one goes on to do something else?  

Dressage horses aern't all doomed to just do endless circles in rollkur and kept stabled 24/7 .  THere are plenty who go hacking, hunting, show jumping, galloping and living out.  Go on to the BD forums and you'll see plenty of this type of lifestyle discussed.  Lets face it KS isn't going to be a GP horse most likely - but he'll hopefull get out there and show the world that ex-race horses can and do go on to do other things and dressage is perhaps what he might be most suited to.

Give it up you lot.
		
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So because we follow racing, we supposedly know nothing about dressage? How very patronising (and hugely incorrect) of you. 

This is simply about respect for the horse, nothing more. 

He doesn't need to be an ambassador for ex-racers (by these I mean horses entering the general horse population that have no future in racing because they are gelded, or too slow to be used as broodmares, not those that go onto the paddocks or the PTP field). 

Anyone with half a clue about horses (ie decent level comp rider) knows perfectly well that plenty horses off the track can become good sports horses. It's also known that some can become riding horses for the average leisure rider and some can't. 

What is more likely to happen is that more inexperienced riders will want to copy the idea, and end up in a mess with an unhappy horse. There's enough of them out there already, without adding to that.


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## PucciNPoni (23 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			So because we follow racing, we supposedly know nothing about dressage? How very patronising (and hugely incorrect) of you. 

This is simply about respect for the horse, nothing more. 

He doesn't need to be an ambassador for ex-racers (by these I mean horses entering the general horse population that have no future in racing because they are gelded, or too slow to be used as broodmares, not those that go onto the paddocks or the PTP field). 

Anyone with half a clue about horses (ie decent level comp rider) knows perfectly well that plenty horses off the track can become good sports horses. It's also known that some can become riding horses for the average leisure rider and some can't. 

What is more likely to happen is that more inexperienced riders will want to copy the idea, and end up in a mess with an unhappy horse. There's enough of them out there already, without adding to that.
		
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I didn't say or assume race fans know nothing of dressage... however there were some comments on this thread that blatantly said that it would be soul destroying for a horse to end up forevermore just doing endless circles.  

I agree that there will be some numpties that shouldn't have an ex-race horse - many in fact they probably shouldn't have a horse full stop.  But I still think that any ambassador for the versatility of ex-race horses leading full lives outside of racing is a good thing.


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## Caledonia (23 December 2012)

PucciNPoni said:



			But I still think that any ambassador for the versatility of ex-race horses leading full lives outside of racing is a good thing.
		
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All this sorry tale has shown is that a lot of people believe that a horse is nothing but a commodity for an owner to do as he pleases with.

You'd wonder what a horse has to do to secure a safe retirement from racing and prevent being moved around if the likes of Kauto can't.


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## PucciNPoni (23 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			All this sorry tale has shown is that a lot of people believe that a horse is nothing but a commodity for an owner to do as he pleases with.

You'd wonder what a horse has to do to secure a safe retirement from racing and prevent being moved around if the likes of Kauto can't.
		
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Sadly, that goes for any horse, no matter how famous or what discipline s/he is in.    There are similar debates about Totillas, Valegro's potential sale, and probably OTHER horses that I just don't know much about.  But I think what irks me about this thread is that the notion that going off to do a second career for a fit, healthy horse of a good age to relearn is a BAD thing - particularly if it's going in to dressage!


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## cptrayes (23 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			All this sorry tale has shown is that a lot of people believe that a horse is nothing but a commodity for an owner to do as he pleases with.
		
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I find this comment quite amazing.

Caledonia you were obviously not unhappy the the owner chose to put the horse into the most life-threatening career possible for a horse. 

That's OK, but retiring him to do Riding Club stuff isn't?

Beats me 

As far as I can see, he was far more of a commodity as a racehorse than he ever will be now he is retired and away from his training yard.


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## Caledonia (23 December 2012)

PucciNPoni said:



			Sadly, that goes for any horse, no matter how famous or what discipline s/he is in.    There are similar debates about Totillas, Valegro's potential sale, and probably OTHER horses that I just don't know much about.  But I think what irks me about this thread is that the notion that going off to do a second career for a fit, healthy horse of a good age to relearn is a BAD thing - particularly if it's going in to dressage!
		
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Totilas and Valegro are not the same, they're not retiring, they have/are changing rider and continuing in their particular discipline because the owners have sold them. 

For this horse to do any more than poddle along at basic dressage levels will involve a lot of work to change his muscles so that it is comfortable and easy for him. He has had two monumental falls - there is latent damage that has probably been a governing factor in why they have called it a day with him. 

Runners are not gymnasts. It's unfair to the horse when he has given so much to expect him to give more. Don't forget he's been in training since he was a 2yo - he's had a very long and hard career.


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## cptrayes (23 December 2012)

oldvic said:



			look at the feeling that he has created amongst people who have never set eyes on him in the flesh let alone been part of his team.
		
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I am looking at that. It's a fantasy. Very much like people dreaming about their favourite pop stars. It would fade in a moment given the reality of shovelling ton of muck out of his box every year. In five years time, hopefully as a fit and healthy 17 year old, he would just be an old nag in the box over there where he's always been. 





			That would be the same in many busy competition yards where the system is often different - the horses are done by whoever is available rather than the same person every day.
		
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I think you would struggle to find a competition yard in this country that has more than a small fraction of the 120 stabled horses at Ditcheat, and consequently the number of staff who may handle the horse.  To give you an example of someone at the top of the tree, Tim Stockdale had less than twenty when I visited his yard.





			Also they are often mucked out while they are out. In a busy yard there is not the luxury of time to fiddle, you have to get the job done or you will be there all night.
		
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Quite. I would like him to go somewhere to someone who does have time to fiddle. 





			In racing the lads tend to split their time but spend longer on 1 or 2 horses a night in a rota depending on if they have "spares"  due to people away from the yard racing.
		
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Exactly. He might be handled by any number of people, not all of whom would give a damn that he was a has-been superstar, particularly as time goes on.


...


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## Daffodil (23 December 2012)

I'm afraid that hatred (and there's no other word for it) of Clive Smith has now seeped into the blood stream of so many of you that no amount of balanced and logical argument in favour his decision will make a jot of difference to you.   It's now just argument for the sake of it.

From being hailed as a hero when he retired KS he has now become the villain of the piece.  Why?  Because he wants his horse to retire from racing but still lead a useful and mind-occupying life where he will be kept fit and happy (which I don't doubt for a moment he will be), and to do this, he has sent him for schooling to an experienced and established event rider under the guidance of Yogi Briesner, who, don't forget, was himself hailed as the architect of much of our Olympic success this year, and has also worked extensively with racehorses.  KS could not be in better hands and I for one, applaud Clive Smith.  He deserves much better than the villification he is receiving here.


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## oldvic (23 December 2012)

ChristmasPTrees said:



			I am looking at that. It's a fantasy. Very much like people dreaming about their favourite pop stars. It would fade in a moment given the reality of shovelling ton of muck out of his box every year. In five years time, hopefully as a fit and healthy 17 year old, he would just be an old nag in the box over there where he's always been. 

                          __________________

You have no idea what these old horses mean to a yard. They are treated like kings. Anyone who looks after them feels a huge amount of pride and honour and they stay revered throughout their retirement. "In the box where he's always been" is the phrase that is really what this is all about. That is where he considers as home. That is his comfort zone. It is not that he can't do a few walk trot tests but he does require a very good rider who is likely to be more ambitious than he is. He deserves to stay with what he knows and is comfortable with.

                          _____________________

I think you would struggle to find a competition yard in this country that has more than a small fraction of the 120 stabled horses at Ditcheat, and consequently the number of staff who may handle the horse.  To give you an example of someone at the top of the tree, Tim Stockdale had less than twenty when I visited his yard.

                        ________________________


In a competition yard there are less horses than at Paul Nicholls but in racing they are looked after by the same person every day unless that person is away. In a competition yard they are done by whoever is available.

                       _______________________


Quite. I would like him to go somewhere to someone who does have time to fiddle. 

                          ________________________


Someone who has time to fiddle will only have one or two horses. That would be a real culture shock for him. Some horses get irritated by people fiddling about with them.

                        _________________________


Exactly. He might be handled by any number of people, not all of whom would give a damn that he was a has-been superstar, particularly as time goes on.


                         _________________________


With a horse like that, it is most likely that whoever did him as a spare would be chosen carefully as someone who is aware of his status and would feel the pride.
		
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## PucciNPoni (23 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Totilas and Valegro are not the same, they're not retiring, they have/are changing rider and continuing in their particular discipline because the owners have sold them. 

For this horse to do any more than poddle along at basic dressage levels will involve a lot of work to change his muscles so that it is comfortable and easy for him. He has had two monumental falls - there is latent damage that has probably been a governing factor in why they have called it a day with him. 

Runners are not gymnasts. It's unfair to the horse when he has given so much to expect him to give more. Don't forget he's been in training since he was a 2yo - he's had a very long and hard career.
		
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What - and you think that this horse will somehow know the difference?  Not all horses are born to be dressage horses, and many do undergo career changes even at later stages in life.  Yes it can take retraining of the mind and muscles, but isn't that better than to just rot away in a field and stable?    Do you think that horse wakes up and says to himself "I'm a racing hero, I shouldn't be demeaned by doing Prelim dressage?"  Get real.  

It's far better that a horse be useful and kept doing something than to waste away.  He might be happy stuck in a field.  But I know for a fact mine wouldn't.  Some horses crave a bit of attention and getting that attention from a single someone who loves him or several adoring fans...so long as their fed and attended to -- that's usually what they want and need.   

I think it's simply that YOU don't want to have your racing hero be demeaned to a life of lowly dressge.  Somehow that takes the polish of your idol.


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## cptrayes (23 December 2012)

oldvic said:



			You have no idea what these old horses mean to a yard. They are treated like kings.
		
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No horse who is never turned out to mix with other horses and stretch its legs at liberty is being treated like a king by my definition.





			Anyone who looks after them feels a huge amount of pride and honour and they stay revered throughout their retirement.
		
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You can guarantee that can you? How many of them have their been retired in 120 box yards?





			"In the box where he's always been" is the phrase that is really what this is all about. That is where he considers as home. That is his comfort zone.
		
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Did he ever travel overnight to race and board over? Did he settle enough to race and perform well? THAT's how much he cares about that box. 




			It is not that he can't do a few walk trot tests but he does require a very good rider who is likely to be more ambitious than he is.
		
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You underestimate how difficult it is to reschool an ex racer and the number of very good riders who are not hugely competitive. 




			He deserves to stay with what he knows and is comfortable with.
		
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He does deserve that, if it would continue to keep him comfortable when he is a creaky old man. With no turnout, I don't believe that would be the case. 





			Someone who has time to fiddle will only have one or two horses. That would be a real culture shock for him. Some horses get irritated by people fiddling about with them.
		
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"Time to fiddle" does not mean he will be fiddled with if he does not want! Most horses love it, but if he doesn't I'm sure his new owner will allow for that. 

Culture shock? yes the pictures of him having moved to a tiny yard and not being ridden in a string look as if he is shocked, don't they?





			With a horse like that, it is most likely that whoever did him as a spare would be chosen carefully as someone who is aware of his status and would feel the pride.
		
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For how long? In ten years time when another horse in the yard is the one in the public eye?  "Feel the pride" - on a cold wet December evening in 2022 when you have been detailed to do him as an extra and are already soaked to the skin and should have finished an hour ago and he bites you when you adjust his rug because his arthritis hurts him? Somehow I doubt it.


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## silu (23 December 2012)

For how long? In ten years time when another horse in the yard is the one in the public eye?  "Feel the pride" - on a cold wet December evening in 2022 when you have been detailed to do him as an extra and are already soaked to the skin and should have finished an hour ago and he bites you when you adjust his rug because his arthritis hurts him? Somehow I doubt it.[/QUOTE]

Try at bit longer than 10 years. Those of us who are racing fans still remember with affection the likes of Arkle who was retired from racing in approx 1965! Of course KS is just a horse BUT a very special 1. From the shear number of posts on here about him it perhaps shows just how much people DO care about his future and what happens to him. In an ideal world all horses, racehorses or otherwise should have the perfect retirement but in reality that doesn't happen.Time will tell if KS gets the future he thoroughly deserves.


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## Caledonia (23 December 2012)

PucciNPoni said:



			What - and you think that this horse will somehow know the difference?  Not all horses are born to be dressage horses, and many do undergo career changes even at later stages in life.  Yes it can take retraining of the mind and muscles, but isn't that better than to just rot away in a field and stable?    Do you think that horse wakes up and says to himself "I'm a racing hero, I shouldn't be demeaned by doing Prelim dressage?"  Get real.  

It's far better that a horse be useful and kept doing something than to waste away.  He might be happy stuck in a field.  But I know for a fact mine wouldn't.  Some horses crave a bit of attention and getting that attention from a single someone who loves him or several adoring fans...so long as their fed and attended to -- that's usually what they want and need.   

I think it's simply that YOU don't want to have your racing hero be demeaned to a life of lowly dressge.  Somehow that takes the polish of your idol.
		
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Don't be ridiculous - if he'd retired at 7 with a leg, I'd say go ahead and find a new job. But he's not, he's 13 in March and he deserves a retirement. 

You know what your horses want - Ditcheat knew what Kauto wanted. You can't have it both ways. Or are you streets ahead of the team at Ditcheat?

Nasty smell of hypocritical bull5hit here ......


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## monkeybum13 (23 December 2012)

Just curious as everyone keeps going on about turnout at PN's yard, do the horses get all year turnout at LC's then?


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## oldvic (23 December 2012)

ChristmasPTrees said:



			No horse who is never turned out to mix with other horses and stretch its legs at liberty is being treated like a king by my definition.

                                _______

He has always been turned out with some friends for his summer holidays.

                              ________


You can guarantee that can you? How many of them have their been retired in 120 box yards?

                              _______

There have been many over the years that have stayed with their trainer in large yards.

                              _______

Did he ever travel overnight to race and board over? Did he settle enough to race and perform well? THAT's how much he cares about that box. 

                              _______


Very rarely. He had 3 trips to Ireland. He won 2 although some were not impressed with the manner of doing so. He pulled up having been reported as never travelling in the other.

                             ________

You underestimate how difficult it is to reschool an ex racer and the number of very good riders who are not hugely competitive. 

                              _______

Your first comment amuses me and the second is naive.

                              _______

He does deserve that, if it would continue to keep him comfortable when he is a creaky old man. With no turnout, I don't believe that would be the case. 

                             _______

To imply that they wouldn't have had his best interests at heart is insulting to a very professional team.

                             _______

"Time to fiddle" does not mean he will be fiddled with if he does not want! Most horses love it, but if he doesn't I'm sure his new owner will allow for that. 

Culture shock? yes the pictures of him having moved to a tiny yard and not being ridden in a string look as if he is shocked, don't they?

                             ________

Laura has around 17 horses to event. Not a tiny yard.


                             ________

For how long? In ten years time when another horse in the yard is the one in the public eye?  "Feel the pride" - on a cold wet December evening in 2022 when you have been detailed to do him as an extra and are already soaked to the skin and should have finished an hour ago and he bites you when you adjust his rug because his arthritis hurts him? Somehow I doubt it.
		
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They have had the highs with the horse so why are they unlikely to care for him in old age - particularly as Paul Nicholls said that if he had stayed Clifford would have cared for him?


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## PucciNPoni (24 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Don't be ridiculous - if he'd retired at 7 with a leg, I'd say go ahead and find a new job. But he's not, he's 13 in March and he deserves a retirement. 

You know what your horses want - Ditcheat knew what Kauto wanted. You can't have it both ways. Or are you streets ahead of the team at Ditcheat?

Nasty smell of hypocritical bull5hit here ......
		
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The only thing nasty is your attitude and vitriol.

Merry Christmas.  The thread is still ridiculous, and now I feel a bit ridiculous for being drawn in to it for a bit.


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## Alec Swan (24 December 2012)

PucciNPoni said:



			.......

Merry Christmas.  The thread is still ridiculous, and now I feel a bit ridiculous for being drawn in to it for a bit. 

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Not specifically this thread,  but others,  I too often wonder why TF I bothered!!  It wont matter tomorrow,  and a Merry Christmas to you too! 

There's a mince pie for the first person to display a blowing-kisses-smilie!!

Alec.


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## Fantasy_World (24 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Don't be ridiculous - if he'd retired at 7 with a leg, I'd say go ahead and find a new job. But he's not, he's 13 in March and he deserves a retirement. 

You know what your horses want - Ditcheat knew what Kauto wanted. You can't have it both ways.
		
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I totally agree!
The horse has done enough to earn a retirement what more does he have to prove?
I also agree that the highlighting of both him and Denman in their new careers may lure more numpties to go to the sales get themselves an ex racer and have a go with disastrous consequences 
I just wonder at the back of my mind if the rivalry between the owners of Kauto and Denman is still going?
Findlay seemed a man who loved the limelight and so does Smith.
Denman is going off team chasing and has been hunting and looks thoroughly happy.
Although I would say he is more in the mould of an old fashioned chaser and should take to hunting like a duck to water. He was not given the nickname 'The Tank' for nothing!
I enjoy seeing his reports in the H&H and I think careful consideration has been given to his new career. 
He though has not suffered the falls and injuries of his former stablemate.
True he suffered from a hearbeat irregularity but that was sorted out and he went on to win races afterwards. 
He is more of a stoic horse than Kauto Star and you do not have to be a horse or racing expert to see the major differences between the two.
Kauto is more slight and has suffered more falls than Denman and in fact suffered a nasty fracture in one of his earlier one's.
This is sure to have left a mark.
I was not the only one who noticed he did not look 'right' behind before his awful run in the delayed King George run in January 2011, where it was later revealed he had been suffering from an infection. 
As others have rightly said Kauto has been in training since a 2 year old.
He will be 13 next month. 
He has had a long and varied career over jumps. 
He had had 10 races in France over hurdles as a three year old before registering his 31 races over fences in Britain.
Compare this to Denman who did not start racing until he was 5, in a ptp in Liscaroll.
He then went on to have 5 runs over hurdles and 19 over fences.
Denman will continue to be in the public eye through the press such as the Horse & Hound with his further exploits.
Does Smith want the same for his horse?
Further glory and to appear in the press?
What was that phrase that the legendary John Francome used to say in racing? " A horse only has so many miles on the clock."
Competitively I think yes this is true for most thoroughbreds and Kauto has run his fair share.


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## Lolo (24 December 2012)

As an aside, do you think that of they see he's not suitable for an alternative career (I still reckon if he takes to his retraining he'll be out doing RoR showing type things...) he'll be allowed to go back to Ditcheat now following what happened on Twitter and the likes?

In all honesty, there's so much invested in this horse he will only ever know luxury and pampering. He is tremendously lucky in comparison to so many other retired racehorses out there, who ran as often and tried as hard and were just as injured because he was good. So many who are rubbish at racing or are injured are 'rescued' (what a joke) by well-meaning novices who don't feed them enough or rug them enough or try and train them properly. They end up thin and confused and labelled as lunatics. Kauto Star may not be living the life you envisioned for him, but he's living one of luxury and it will only ever be that way. Maybe we need to use this to look at how outrage needs applying to more worthy causes...


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## cptrayes (24 December 2012)

ChristmasPTrees said:



			You underestimate how difficult it is to reschool an ex racer and the number of very good riders who are not hugely competitive.
		
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This should have read "you OVERestimate how difficult it is to reschool an ex racehorse"


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## Alec Swan (24 December 2012)

A staggering 490 posts.  OK so some are those repeating themselves,  but everyone (just about),  is passionate about the horse himself.

Whether I agree with your stances,  or not,  is immaterial.  You CARE,  and I applaud you all.

I suspect that the Mr's Smith and Nicholls have rather burned their bridges,  which is such a shame.  Unseemly squabbling has left them with an impasse of epic and insurmountable proportions,  I suspect.

I wish you all peace at Christmas.

Alec.


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## PolarSkye (24 December 2012)

Louise12 said:



			If a horse has never been special to you then that is absolutely fine, but for those of us that they have, then all we can say is that they remain special forever, not temporarily. You will just have to trust us on that until it happens to you. The whole point of the problem here is that Kauto Star had a home, and he should have remained there
		
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Of course my horse is special to me.  Just like other people's horses are special to them.  Bottom line, though, is that if GreyDonkey's previous owner hadn't been in a position to sell him on (b/c she was going travelling) then he wouldn't be mine.  I'm very, very glad she did choose to sell him - and to me . . . he is my childhood wish come true - my fairytale pony.  If I can, I will keep him until one of us dies.

Are you seriously suggesting that b/c horses have a home they should never, ever leave it?  Under any circumstances?  Or that horses who are sold on for one reason or another have never been "special" to their owners?  

A very few lucky horses have one home from the time they hit the floor on foaling until they die . . . but most have several homes in their lifetimes and are loved in each one and special to each owner.

This thread has become beyond ridiculous . . . all this vitriol and speculation over the future of one very pampered ex racehorse.  Why not direct all this energy to helping those no name horses who find themselves on a meat wagon to France . . . or worse (and there is worse)?

P


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## Caol Ila (24 December 2012)

PolarExpress said:



			Of course my horse is special to me.  Just like other people's horses are special to them.  Bottom line, though, is that if GreyDonkey's previous owner hadn't been in a position to sell him on (b/c she was going travelling) then he wouldn't be mine.  I'm very, very glad she did choose to sell him - and to me . . . he is my childhood wish come true - my fairytale pony.  If I can, I will keep him until one of us dies.

Are you seriously suggesting that b/c horses have a home they should never, ever leave it?  Under any circumstances?  Or that horses who are sold on for one reason or another have never been "special" to their owners?  

A very few lucky horses have one home from the time they hit the floor on foaling until they die . . . but most have several homes in their lifetimes and are loved in each one and special to each owner.

This thread has become beyond ridiculous . . . all this vitriol and speculation over the future of one very pampered ex racehorse.  Why not direct all this energy to helping those no name horses who find themselves on a meat wagon to France . . . or worse (and there is worse)?

P
		
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Indeed.  My horse was very special to her previous owner -- well loved, well looked after.  She had been bought as a 2-year old from the breeder to be the owner's dressage horse.  But previous owner developed a medical condition that was worsening and meant that she couldn't ride anymore.  The horse was 7 at the time and the owner did not want her sitting around doing nothing.  So she decided to sell the horse to someone who could ride.   Because the mare had a home where people loved her, should she not have been sold and moved on to a new yard with new people (me!), just because, due to the owner's problems, she couldn't do the job she was originally bought to do.  But she still had a home!  By Louise12's logic, no horse who's owners care enough about it to not send it to the knackers or can afford to keep it even if it doesn't suit their purpose anymore should ever be sold, loaned, etc.


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## brighteyes (24 December 2012)

To quote just a line from the article - "Kauto Star's main priorities in life are food, shelter and warmth," Oh dear - _every_ horse's priority is company! Then food.

I am fairly confident KS will be fine. 

What this has done for retrained racehorses and his final retirement home remains to be seen. I hope his lass/lad can still see him if they so wish.


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## oldvic (24 December 2012)

ChristmasPTrees said:



			This should have read "you OVERestimate how difficult it is to reschool an ex racehorse"
		
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This amuses me even more!


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## cptrayes (24 December 2012)

brightinsel said:



			To quote just a line from the article - "Kauto Star's main priorities in life are food, shelter and warmth," Oh dear - _every_ horse's priority is company! Then food.
		
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Sorry Brightinsel I'm not with you there. I haven't met a horse yet who would starve himself to death rather than be on his own.


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## cptrayes (24 December 2012)

oldvic said:



			This amuses me even more!
		
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Can I ask how many ex racers you have taught to do dressage and showjump oldvic? It would be interesting to know what experience you have that it amuses you so much that I think you overestimate how difficult it is to reschool an ex racer.


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## oldvic (24 December 2012)

ChristmasPTrees said:



			Can I ask how many ex racers you have taught to do dressage and showjump oldvic? It would be interesting to know what experience you have that it amuses you so much that I think you overestimate how difficult it is to reschool an ex racer.
		
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I will PM you as I wouldn't want to embarrass you.


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## cptrayes (24 December 2012)

oldvic said:



			I will PM you as I wouldn't want to embarrass you.
		
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I do not like secrecy and I fail to see how your answer can embarass me. I request your permission to publish your PM when it arrives otherwise I will delete it without opening it.


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## Onyxia (24 December 2012)

13 is not too old to learn a new job and while KS might be past it for racing he is not an OAP equine just yet for other activities.

I don't think anyone expects KS to earn a crust at GP or show up in Rio,but I feel a working retirement is probably the best thing in the world for him.
Anything that keeps body and mind active is a good thing,dressage will do that for him.

I can understand bad feelings on the part of the trainers yard at losing a loved super star, but honestly, the life of a normal horse (care, food,turnout with company and gentle work) is a wonderful way to live out his life.


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## oldvic (24 December 2012)

ChristmasPTrees said:



			I do not like secrecy and I fail to see how your answer can embarass me. I request your permission to publish your PM when it arrives otherwise I will delete it without opening it.
		
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My answer is not relevant to others on this thread which is why I PM'd you. I wasn't being secretive, I just didn't see the necessity to publicise it.
 I have lost count of the number I have competed but it is probably well into double figures although possibly not treble figures. The amount of racehorses/ex-racehorses I have schooled would be in the region of 300, probably more.


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## Maesfen (24 December 2012)

Need a like button for OV.


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## Luci07 (24 December 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Need a like button for OV.
		
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Agreed. I have re schooled 2 ex chasers. It took considerably longer than I had anticipated but I am an amateur!  Watched a lot more from the sidelines and reschooling an ex racehorse is not dissimilar to backing a youngster ..you have no idea how it will go till you start. Some are easy, some are tricky but its not a black art.  

I am somewhat saddened that a great deal of this thread has become rather antagonistic with people thinking that their way is the only way. And being pretty unpleasant in some cases with incredibly fixed opinions and no facts to support them.

I very much enjoy the positive updates and have yet to see any spectacular commitments as to his next career.  Yes he is 13. Yes he has worked hard. Equally management, feeding, etc have come on so far..this is a 13 year old who has always been well cared for, properly attended to. I would rather see his current condition as a real reflection of the care he has had under PN and his yard than as a negative commentary.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (24 December 2012)

Another person who is saddened to still see people abusing each other over this. Your opinion is your opinion, the only person who has to live with it is you.

Come on folks its Xmas eve lets bury this 'one-up-manship' and let the subject rest, its not as if arguing on here about what he should and shouldnt be doing is going to matter anyway so why attack each other over it 

Merry Christmas Everyone


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## cptrayes (24 December 2012)

oldvic said:



			My answer is not relevant to others on this thread which is why I PM'd you. I wasn't being secretive, I just didn't see the necessity to publicise it.
 I have lost count of the number I have competed but it is probably well into double figures although possibly not treble figures. The amount of racehorses/ex-racehorses I have schooled would be in the region of 300, probably more.
		
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Then I am completely bafflled as to why you appear to think that it is so difficult to retrain them, unless you think yourself a very much better trainer than anyone else I know.

I don't intend to read your PM if you will not share your answer to me with others on the thread. I do not like to know information from complete strangers that they would wish me not to share with others. If it's secret, I don't want to be burdened with it thankyou.


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## oldvic (24 December 2012)

There is no secret, just nothing that needs broadcasting as I am sure others are no more interested than you are.

Some are suited to another job, others are not. Nothing baffling, just fact. Whether it is due to conformation, injuries, temperament, movement or a combination of factors, just as not all dressage horses will jump or show jumpers want to go XC. Equally a horse that is a good ride for some is too much of a Ferrari for others.

Now I suggest you accept that not everybody sees things your way and you go away and find someone else to pick on. Happy Christmas.


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## cptrayes (24 December 2012)

oldvic said:



			Now I suggest you accept that not everybody sees things your way and you go away and find someone else to pick on. Happy Christmas.
		
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Frankly that's more than a bit rude Oldvic, and completely unnecessary. 

Have you read a straightforward and reasonable question and a straightforward response to the information you gave as  "picking on you"   ?

I simply wanted to know if you actually had experience of retraining ex racers, given your apparent concern that KS would not take to being retrained. You do. Fine.  You and I don't agree where his future best lies. Fine.  I'm not sure what your issue is, to be honest, but I really would appreciate it if you do not post again on a public forum suggesting that you will be sending me a PM that would embarass me if it was made public.


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## dressedkez (24 December 2012)

Snaffle bits at dawn, clearly here! 
From my limited experience, most (other then the totally insane TB's - and that goes for all horses) will take some form of re-training - but really good racehorses, are generally good because they have some totally mad tendancies, and need Race Yard experience to deal with that......my own winning racehorse, was a plug to ride, but a nightmare in the stable, I only really knew that when he was really fit, because he would try to savage me on a daily basis. But to ride, I could have put a toddler on him, hacking that was, on the gallops he was fairly text book as most old handicappers are, but nothing awe inspiring, it was really only his behaviour in the stable, that gave us the clues that he was ready to run! Mr Joe Average could never have dealt with him, as he was not text book.


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## Caledonia (26 December 2012)

PolarExpress said:



			Why not direct all this energy to helping those no name horses who find themselves on a meat wagon to France . . . or worse (and there is worse)?

P
		
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I already do ........


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## Caledonia (26 December 2012)

oldvic said:



			This amuses me even more!
		
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## silu (26 December 2012)

The publicity machine for Messrs Collett is working well I see from the headline news on H&H. I wonder how many dressage riders will appreciate them being considered not good enough to deal with a non race fit nearly 13 yo!? LC is surprised at the amount of interest in KS's future. That just goes to show she isn't really that interested in racing other than perhaps the more social side. Having been to The King George meeting  for the last 51 years I am not surprised in the slightest at the concern as to a super star racehorse's future and rightly so.


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## christine48 (26 December 2012)

Xmas Beastie said:



			Another person who is saddened to still see people abusing each other over this. Your opinion is your opinion, the only person who has to live with it is you.

Come on folks its Xmas eve lets bury this 'one-up-manship' and let the subject rest, its not as if arguing on here about what he should and shouldnt be doing is going to matter anyway so why attack each other over it 

Merry Christmas Everyone 

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Hear hear, there are some very bigoted, nasty opinionated people on this thread.


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## Luci07 (26 December 2012)

silu said:



			The publicity machine for Messrs Collett is working well I see from the headline news on H&H. I wonder how many dressage riders will appreciate them being considered not good enough to deal with a non race fit nearly 13 yo!? LC is surprised at the amount of interest in KS's future. That just goes to show she isn't really that interested in racing other than perhaps the more social side. Having been to The King George meeting  for the last 51 years I am not surprised in the slightest at the concern as to a super star racehorse's future and rightly so.
		
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What a nasty,ill informed and lazy post. Can't even get LC's actual discipline correct. Bah humbug!


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## teapot (26 December 2012)

He's on Channel 4 now


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## Fantasy_World (26 December 2012)

Christmas Treepot said:



			He's on Channel 4 now 

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Oh yeah so he is and looking lame on his hinds too!


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## Caledonia (26 December 2012)

Well, I think racing has shown exactly how they feel about the decision that was made to move him. He also didn't look right behind.


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## Caledonia (26 December 2012)

What the hell has she done to him?


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## Elf On A Shelf (26 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			What the hell has she done to him? 

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Sedated him?!?


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## amage (26 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			What the hell has she done to him? 

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Did you ever consider that the horse being unsound is the reason Nicholls wanted him kept at Ditcheat for his retirement where they know the small details that keep him sound & happy


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## Caledonia (26 December 2012)

EKW said:



			Sedated him?!?
		
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Hmmm - there's a notion!


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## minesadouble (26 December 2012)

Well it's not rocket science deducing whether a gelding has been sedated!!! Or was the rug obscuring the evidence?


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## Caledonia (26 December 2012)

amage said:



			Did you ever consider that the horse being unsound is the reason Nicholls wanted him kept at Ditcheat for his retirement where they know the small details that keep him sound & happy
		
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He was in full training until recently - so he has to have been pretty damn sound. Mind you, he's not been let down in the interim, has he, so it's bound to have been hard work for him 

I agree, that's one of the MANY reasons he should have stayed at Ditcheat.


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## Elf On A Shelf (26 December 2012)

minesadouble said:



			Well it's not rocket science deducing whether a gelding has been sedated!!! Or was the rug obscuring the evidence?
		
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He would have worn the rug regardless as it listed all of his KG wins. Personally I have never seen him so chilled and docile in the paddock let alone walking down the track so I suspect some form of calm inducing added extra is involved.


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## christine48 (26 December 2012)

Could it not just be that he has been let down and isn't as fit now? Or god forbid he is just more chilled out with his new regime.


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## Fantasy_World (26 December 2012)

I agree I thought he looked quiet, in fact he looked a little like he did before the delayed King George held in January 2011 as he was quiet and not right behind that day when he was beaten.
Sorry but he does not look the same horse to me and did you notice how Smith took a long hard look behind the horse too?


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## Caledonia (26 December 2012)

christine48 said:



			Could it not just be that he has been let down and isn't as fit now? Or god forbid he is just more chilled out with his new regime.
		
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He's not been let down tho has he? He's been worked there every day - and he shouldn't have looked wrong behind if he was more chilled. 

He's a racehorse parading at a racecourse. He's not a horse having gone from one rider to another.


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## silu (26 December 2012)

I did have a little bet with myself that KS would be looking very quiet and so it proved...hmmm, no testing needed. Not exactly one of the many great Dessie moments was it? Agree with others that he has dramatically lost his great hind action but he had nice clean bandages on!


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## christine48 (26 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			He's not been let down tho has he? He's been worked there every day - and he shouldn't have looked wrong behind if he was more chilled. 

He's a racehorse parading at a racecourse. He's not a horse having gone from one rider to another.
		
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Well he's not going to be as fit as when he was racing is he!! He's doing a bit of hacking and flat work.


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## Elf On A Shelf (26 December 2012)

christine48 said:



			Well he's not going to be as fit as when he was racing is he!! He's doing a bit of hacking and flat work.
		
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He should be pretty much just as fit as he was when he paraded at Haydock and ripped the absolute mick!


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## Caledonia (26 December 2012)

christine48 said:



			Well he's not going to be as fit as when he was racing is he!! He's doing a bit of hacking and flat work.
		
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What, you expect that gave him a personality transplant too?


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## Marydoll (26 December 2012)

It wouldnt have mattered what he looked like some of you would always have found fault with him, poor girl and her grooms were on a hiding to nothing.
If he was sharp, she wouldnt be managing him or handling him properly
He's to quiet,  well he must be sedated.
He's not right behind" what's she done to him" how do you know he's not done something hooning around in the field ?
Listen to the lot of you, fgs If you were a group on a livery yard going on like this about someone there would be a collective term for you, i'll decline to say as i dont want barred.


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## christine48 (26 December 2012)

Does it matter whether he was sedated or not? I don't see why some of you have it in for Laura Collett. She has been asked to do a job for the owner end of. You may not like it but at the end of the day it has NOTHING to do with any of us.
Yogi works extensively with both race horses and eventers ( he mayhaveworked with KS - I don't know), sopresumably he feels that  she is up to the job.


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## minesadouble (26 December 2012)

EKW said:



			He would have worn the rug regardless as it listed all of his KG wins. Personally I have never seen him so chilled and docile in the paddock let alone walking down the track so I suspect some form of calm inducing added extra is involved.
		
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I wasn't suggesting that's why he wore the rug, obviously he would have been wearing it regardless of who paraded him. Was a genuine question as to whether anyone had spotted a 'swinging willy' as it were 

I have to say that before some of Kauto Star's races I've wondered whether he was quite right behind so it's not a huge surprise that people are picking up on it now.

I have to say that I feel for Laura Collett in all of this, I'm sure she had no idea that she would meet with such a negative backlash when she took the horse on.


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## christine48 (26 December 2012)

marychristmas said:



			It wouldnt have mattered what he looked like some of you would always have found fault with him, poor girl and her grooms were on a hiding to nothing.
If he was sharp, she wouldnt be managing him or handling him properly
He's to quiet,  well he must be sedated.
He's not right behind" what's she done to him" how do you know he's not done something hooning around in the field ?
Listen to the lot of you, fgs If you were a group on a livery yard going on like this about someone there would be a collective term for you, i'll decline to say as i dont want barred.
		
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Well said!!


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## Caledonia (26 December 2012)

marychristmas said:



			It wouldnt have mattered what he looked like some of you would always have found fault with him, poor girl and her grooms were on a hiding to nothing.
If he was sharp, she wouldnt be managing him or handling him properly
He's to quiet,  well he must be sedated.
He's not right behind" what's she done to him" how do you know he's not done something hooning around in the field ?
Listen to the lot of you, fgs If you were a group on a livery yard going on like this about someone there would be a collective term for you, i'll decline to say as i dont want barred.
		
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Did you watch him? Have you watched him often enough to know if he's different or not? I have ...

The only plus was that CS got no airtime at all.


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## Fantasy_World (26 December 2012)

christine48 said:



			Well said!!
		
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For the record I have stated on here before and elsewhere that he has not looked right behind before racing and quiet too, so I am not saying just because he has gone to where he has.
I am saying it because the horse clearly has a problem behind, so why put him through the rigors of being retrained for dressage when his whole action behind will not be suited by it.
He has done enough, he does not owe anybody anything, least of all Smith who also happened to look behind too.
Would you have slated him too if he had mentioned that the horse didn't look right tracking up?


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## Nicnac (26 December 2012)

marychristmas said:



			It wouldnt have mattered what he looked like some of you would always have found fault with him, poor girl and her grooms were on a hiding to nothing.
If he was sharp, she wouldnt be managing him or handling him properly
He's to quiet,  well he must be sedated.
He's not right behind" what's she done to him" how do you know he's not done something hooning around in the field ?
Listen to the lot of you, fgs If you were a group on a livery yard going on like this about someone there would be a collective term for you, i'll decline to say as i dont want barred.
		
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christine48 said:



			Does it matter whether he was sedated or not? I don't see why some of you have it in for Laura Collett. She has been asked to do a job for the owner end of. You may not like it but at the end of the day it has NOTHING to do with any of us.
Yogi works extensively with both race horses and eventers ( he mayhaveworked with KS - I don't know), sopresumably he feels that  she is up to the job.
		
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Well said both and good luck to Laura Collett.  I really hope he does well just to put some of the nasty comments on here to shame.


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## Caledonia (26 December 2012)

minesadouble said:



			I have to say that I feel for Laura Collett in all of this, I'm sure she had no idea that she would meet with such a negative backlash when she took the horse on.
		
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Given her remark on twitter (now removed) telling Team Ditcheat to 'get over it' during the day he went to her when the uproar stated, I have little or no sympathy for her.


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## SusieT (26 December 2012)

the horse has clearly had a problem behind according to many of the people who are upset about his move-and yet it was great for him to be kept in a racing routine and racing-one of the toughest sport on horses legs.....


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## christine48 (26 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Given her remark on twitter (now removed) telling Team Ditcheat to 'get over it' during the day he went to her when the uproar stated, I have little or no sympathy for her.
		
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I think there are a few on here who 'need to get over it' too!!


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## Caledonia (26 December 2012)

christine48 said:



			I think there are a few on here who 'need to get over it' too!!
		
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Backatcha


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## Caledonia (26 December 2012)

SusieT said:



			the horse has clearly had a problem behind according to many of the people who are upset about his move-and yet it was great for him to be kept in a racing routine and racing-one of the toughest sport on horses legs.....
		
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Yes, he's clearly been wrong when winning all those races and over 2 million in prize money  .....


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## Maesfen (26 December 2012)

Damned if she did and damned if she hadn't taken him on (you all know my view on the subject!)

All I'll say is that performance at Kempton today is not how I want to remember him; he deserved so much better than that so from that respect alone, shame on his owner, he robbed the public of a display to marvel and smile at as we did with Dessie.


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## Clodagh (26 December 2012)

A lot of you must be struggling to find time to post on here in between training Gold Cup winning horses, managing retirement homes for Gold Cup winners, being Eventing Olympic hopefuls, in training for Badminton, knowing more about dressage than Carl Hester and a better Coach than Yogi.
I bow down, how on earth do you manage it all?


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## Fantasy_World (26 December 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Given her remark on twitter (now removed) telling Team Ditcheat to 'get over it' during the day he went to her when the uproar stated, I have little or no sympathy for her.
		
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What she said that? for real. I did not know that, if this is indeed true then my opinion of her has greatly changed. 
What an upstart to say something like that to a team who know more about horses than she ever will in her lifetime.
That has really made me angry has that, I wish you had stated this before as I would not have played quite such the Devil's advocate on her behalf as I have done!


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## Fantasy_World (26 December 2012)

Clodagh said:



			A lot of you must be struggling to find time to post on here in between training Gold Cup winning horses, managing retirement homes for Gold Cup winners, being Eventing Olympic hopefuls, in training for Badminton, knowing more about dressage than Carl Hester and a better Coach than Yogi.
I bow down, how on earth do you manage it all?
		
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With ease


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## millhouse (26 December 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Damned if she did and damned if she hadn't taken him on (you all know my view on the subject!)

All I'll say is that performance at Kempton today is not how I want to remember him; he deserved so much better than that so from that respect alone, shame on his owner, he robbed the public of a display to marvel and smile at as we did with Dessie.
		
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Good onya Maesfen.


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## silu (26 December 2012)

Not being a user of Twitter I didn't know such a remark had been posted by LC and then removed!!!. I now feel quite justified in having made some less than thrilled comments about where Kauto currently is stabled. I'm, quite obviously, far too old to understand how someone of tender years can't appreciate that KS isn't just a horse to those who have cared for him over many years and to those who have marvelled at his fantastic career spanning approx 10 years, me being 1 of the latter. I sincerely hope he will EVENTUALLY end up with someone who DOES understand.


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## Fantasy_World (26 December 2012)

silu said:



			Not being a user of Twitter I didn't know such a remark had been posted by LC and then removed!!!. I now feel quite justified in having made some less than thrilled comments about where Kauto currently is stabled. I'm, quite obviously, far too old to understand how someone of tender years can't appreciate that KS isn't just a horse to those who have cared for him over many years and to those who have marvelled at his fantastic career spanning approx 10 years, me being 1 of the latter. I sincerely hope he will EVENTUALLY end up with someone who DOES understand.
		
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Well said and I would also say that he is the best National Hunt horse whose whole career in the UK I have had the privilege to watch. 
I did see some of Desert Orchid's races at the time but I was a little too young to appreciate it then as I only used to really watch the Grand National and the Derby, and Arc in later years.
I have been properly following all National Hunt racing since the 1993/94 season, and watched a few races before that time.


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## Echo Bravo (26 December 2012)

Well I hope team Clive Smith are happy, to see so few people watching him (Kato) parade. What Mr Smith still doesn't realise that it's the NH fans that love him and that he's never ever going to make a Dressage horse, he's a NH horse pure and simple.


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## Fools Motto (26 December 2012)

I didn't see the racing, nor the parade today. Is there anywhere I can see it? Replays??


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## Caledonia (26 December 2012)

Festive Memories said:



			I didn't see the racing, nor the parade today. Is there anywhere I can see it? Replays??
		
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Register on here - it's free. You only get the races tho, not the very short clip of Kauto walking to the paddock. 

http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/...lliam-hill-king-george-vi-chase-grade-1/video


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## Dobiegirl (26 December 2012)

I wonder how posterity will judge Kauto Stars retirement years, after that quote from LC it dosnt bode well, PN will have seen that but still contacted her to wish her well. Seeing Kauto today parading it was like the light had gone out and those that were close to him must be feeling very sad.

What non racing fans will never understand is this horse has written history and has bought so many into racing, he is loved and appreciated for what he is, a living legend.


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## teapot (26 December 2012)

Well PN was happy about how he looked going by LC's latest tweet...


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## Amymay (26 December 2012)

Echo Bravo said:



			Well I hope team Clive Smith are happy, to see so few people watching him (Kato) parade. What Mr Smith still doesn't realise that it's the NH fans that love him and that he's never ever going to make a Dressage horse, he's a NH horse pure and simple.
		
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Yet so few turned up to see him parade??


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## teapot (26 December 2012)

Tbf, the weather wouldn't have helped. Channel 4 commentary commented on the very fact.


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## Fantasy_World (26 December 2012)

Christmas Treepot said:



			Tbf, the weather wouldn't have helped. Channel 4 commentary commented on the very fact.
		
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True National Hunt fans will turn up to watch the racing and to see the horses in any weather  After all most of the big meetings take place in winter


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## Fantasy_World (26 December 2012)

Christmas Treepot said:



			Well PN was happy about how he looked going by LC's latest tweet...
		
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Did you expect him to say anything different?


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## MurphysMinder (26 December 2012)

What did others think of John Francombe's comments while watching Kauto.  I got the distinct impression he isn't a big fan of KS going to do dressage, unless I was just interpreting it that way.


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## teapot (26 December 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			True National Hunt fans will turn up to watch the racing and to see the horses in any weather  After all most of the big meetings take place in winter
		
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What I and they meant was that a lot of people had stayed in the stands rather walked to the parade ring. They'd then see him on the course rather than in the parade ring.




Fantasy_World said:



			Did you expect him to say anything different?
		
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He didn't have to say anything at all by text if he had other opinions. 


But that's all I'm saying as I'm in the 'it's the owner's decision and give LC a chance' school of thought....


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## DragonSlayer (26 December 2012)

marychristmas said:



			It wouldnt have mattered what he looked like some of you would always have found fault with him, poor girl and her grooms were on a hiding to nothing.
If he was sharp, she wouldnt be managing him or handling him properly
He's to quiet,  well he must be sedated.
He's not right behind" what's she done to him" how do you know he's not done something hooning around in the field ?
Listen to the lot of you, fgs If you were a group on a livery yard going on like this about someone there would be a collective term for you, i'll decline to say as i dont want barred.
		
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^^^^^This totally!^^^^^^


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## dressedkez (26 December 2012)

Eldest son was at Kempton, and said it was a privildge to see Kauto parading (and he is a cynacle ex 'Lad'. He puts the poor turn-out around the parade ring down to the weather, and of course the horse was not racing, therefore no expectations on his handsome shoulders.......he did think it a shame that he had those heavy dressage bandages on his lovely well raced legs, and the two leading him up were a bit dull......(was one of them Laura C?)
Kauto doing dressage - maybe at the scale that Neptune was (not too much pressure) Grand Prix St Georges (I don't think so......)
Can we talk about how well Sam W-C and Long Run did today now, life moves on, lets celebrate what could be / is the new star of the future - what 3 Grade Ones (2 KG's and one Gold Cup) and only 7 years old.......????? That is tomorrows story -


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## Fantasy_World (26 December 2012)

MurphysMinder said:



			What did others think of John Francombe's comments while watching Kauto.  I got the distinct impression he isn't a big fan of KS going to do dressage, unless I was just interpreting it that way.
		
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I thought the same, just that he was trying to be evasively polite in his response!


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## Fantasy_World (26 December 2012)

Christmas Treepot said:



			What I and they meant was that a lot of people had stayed in the stands rather walked to the parade ring. They'd then see him on the course rather than in the parade ring.




He didn't have to say anything at all by text if he had other opinions. 


But that's all I'm saying as I'm in the 'it's the owner's decision and give LC a chance' school of thought....
		
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If I had been there I would have walked over to see him, but then again I am a true racing fan and not a once a year type 

As for Nicholls I am most sure he did it to be polite or to try and save grace, though why he should feel the need to is anyone's guess as he has done nothing wrong in all of this!


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## Caledonia (26 December 2012)

amymay said:



			Yet so few turned up to see him parade??
		
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I suspect racing people were letting the owner know what they thought about the current circumstances, the lack of TV coverage spoke volumes too.


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## Maesfen (26 December 2012)

MurphysMinder said:



			What did others think of John Francombe's comments while watching Kauto.  I got the distinct impression he isn't a big fan of KS going to do dressage, unless I was just interpreting it that way.
		
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I thought he was quite tactful   and I agree about the lack of TV coverage on him, that was very noticeable.


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## Honeylight (27 December 2012)

I saw him in the flesh at the beginning of his career & I noticed how badly he moved in front, practically crossing his fetlocks; I often wondered whether this was why he made last fence errors as he was tiring. You don't often see head ons on TV paddock coverage, but I noticed his fetlocks were very close in the parade ring yesterday.
Why was he wearing those bandages? Is he unsound or were they to reinforce to the racing public his new dressage role?


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## PolarSkye (27 December 2012)

Honeylight said:



			I saw him in the flesh at the beginning of his career & I noticed how badly he moved in front, practically crossing his fetlocks; I often wondered whether this was why he made last fence errors as he was tiring. You don't often see head ons on TV paddock coverage, but I noticed his fetlocks were very close in the parade ring yesterday.
Why was he wearing those bandages? Is he unsound or were they to reinforce to the racing public his new dressage role?
		
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Interesting . . . do you mean like "plaiting" ?

P


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## Honeylight (27 December 2012)

Is "plaiting" the proper term? I haven't been connected to horses since my late teens when I had a pony. The sort of opposite of "dishing" any way. He is also (or was 6 years ago) a rather narrow horse.


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