# dealing with a very high head carriage???



## JAGER BOMB :) (15 July 2011)

me newbie has a very very high head carriage...

walking he is fine  carries his head lovely never avoids the bit, cant fault him..

trot oh my god!!!! 

he turns into a giraffe! head up and neck out avoids the bit fights you ever step of the way (had his back, saddle, teeth ect checked all is good)

he wears a running martingale and has a dutch gag (as he can be very strong) 

can anyone suggest something i can try to help him (and me ) with his head?

he is fab when he is lunged ect his head is perfect but when ridden he is like above. a friend suggested i use side reins when riding his to encourage him to work better, will this work ??? 

any ideas??? 

thanks for reading this x


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## JAGER BOMB :) (15 July 2011)

oh and he is ok in canter to (just trotting we have the problems ) xx


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## Foxhunter49 (15 July 2011)

If he wants to carry his head high let hi but raise your hands so they are about level with your face and hold his head _higher_ than he wants and keep it there. He will want to put it down (and your arms will ache like heck,) but keep it there for a full length of the arena, then lower your hands and let him stretch right down. The pick him pup and ask him to come on the bit, if he raises lift him high again. He will catch on after a while.

You need to take the martingale off for this.


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## much-jittering (15 July 2011)

Please don't ride in side reins. You have no way of releasing them in a hurry if you need to. If you've ever seen a horse overreact to side rein pressure on the lunge, you'll know you don't want to be sitting on top of it!

Find yourself a good instructor, eyes from the ground make all the difference.


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## lassiesuca (15 July 2011)

Hi, without trying to offend you, but you say he's fine on the lunge, but not being ridden. Doesn't that tell you the problem? 

I think it's important to be self critical as riders, we have to accept that a lot of the time we affect our horses way of going and prevent them from self carriage; if you're trotting, perhaps you or whoever rides your horse, collapses a lot onto the back of the saddle, has unbalanced hands, your leg slips back and causes him to evade- is he sensitive? This could be a lot of the reason why. 


My advice would first, film yourself riding. Watch it over and evaluate yourself, and your horses response. Then, if you need help trying to improve your riding, get a really decent instructor (not some crappy '20 meter circle at C... KICK' instructor, but one who will focus on the important bits). Perhaps go for some simulator lessons or book a lesson on a school master! 


Good luck. x


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## Elf On A Shelf (15 July 2011)

Trot him up some big steep hills - he will soon want to drop his head a bit to make it easier for him. Once he does this then ask him to work on the bit trotting up the hill. He should get the idea pretty quickly.


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## JAGER BOMB :) (15 July 2011)

lassiesuca said:



			Hi, without trying to offend you, but you say he's fine on the lunge, but not being ridden. Doesn't that tell you the problem? 

I think it's important to be self critical as riders, we have to accept that a lot of the time we affect our horses way of going and prevent them from self carriage; if you're trotting, perhaps you or whoever rides your horse, collapses a lot onto the back of the saddle, has unbalanced hands, your leg slips back and causes him to evade- is he sensitive? This could be a lot of the reason why. 


My advice would first, film yourself riding. Watch it over and evaluate yourself, and your horses response. Then, if you need help trying to improve your riding, get a really decent instructor (not some crappy '20 meter circle at C... KICK' instructor, but one who will focus on the important bits). Perhaps go for some simulator lessons or book a lesson on a school master! 


Good luck. x
		
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he is like it no matter who rides him, i have had 2 instructors, friends ect on him to and he does it with every single one of them xx and thanks i will film it too xx


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## JAGER BOMB :) (15 July 2011)

EKW said:



			Trot him up some big steep hills - he will soon want to drop his head a bit to make it easier for him. Once he does this then ask him to work on the bit trotting up the hill. He should get the idea pretty quickly.
		
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thanks i will try that xxx


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## sazzle44 (15 July 2011)

I had a mare like this and found that it was just lots of work getting her to stretch down to the bit. When she arrived she had a nasty twisted snaffle and terrible teeth although the vet had said they were fine (I know you've had yours checked, but she took a while even after the dentist) First we changed the bit to a fulmer snaffle with a plain joint although if you feel the gag is best for you, I don't see that there would be a problem (I'm not really in a position to comment, just relaying my limited bit of experience! )
Spent quite a while doing lots of stretching long and low going to the rein and getting her to relax. Loads of transitions and riding forwards. I had to learn to ignore where her head actually was but just to ride her forward, ask for the correct bend from my legs and have a still contact. In the end she was lovely to ride, got fantastic dressage marks and it improved her jumping!
Best of luck, it can be frustrating, but certainly with mine, patience was key  xx


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## JAGER BOMB :) (15 July 2011)

Foxhunter49 said:



			If he wants to carry his head high let hi but raise your hands so they are about level with your face and hold his head _higher_ than he wants and keep it there. He will want to put it down (and your arms will ache like heck,) but keep it there for a full length of the arena, then lower your hands and let him stretch right down. The pick him pup and ask him to come on the bit, if he raises lift him high again. He will catch on after a while.

You need to take the martingale off for this.
		
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thanks someone down at the yard suggested that too but i dint know if they was just blagging me i didnt think that would actually work 
but i will try it xx


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## aintgotnohay (15 July 2011)

take the martingale off and for heavens sake dont ride in side reins-if the horse goes down it will impede him getting up.remember bearing reins-same thing but head is tied lower more or less.


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## JAGER BOMB :) (15 July 2011)

sazzle44 said:



			I had a mare like this and found that it was just lots of work getting her to stretch down to the bit. When she arrived she had a nasty twisted snaffle and terrible teeth although the vet had said they were fine (I know you've had yours checked, but she took a while even after the dentist) First we changed the bit to a fulmer snaffle with a plain joint although if you feel the gag is best for you, I don't see that there would be a problem (I'm not really in a position to comment, just relaying my limited bit of experience! )
Spent quite a while doing lots of stretching long and low going to the rein and getting her to relax. Loads of transitions and riding forwards. I had to learn to ignore where her head actually was but just to ride her forward, ask for the correct bend from my legs and have a still contact. In the end she was lovely to ride, got fantastic dressage marks and it improved her jumping!
Best of luck, it can be frustrating, but certainly with mine, patience was key  xx
		
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he is fab when you ask him to do serpentines figures of 8 and other things with lots of bends but as soon as it is a straight line on round the actual school he is a giraffe again, will keep trying, i wont give in on him he is only a young lad i think he just wasnt shown how to do certain things with his old owners i think the just back him then got on him and that was it. he is a lovely ride apart from this one thing. 
you sound like you did well with yours well done xx


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## JAGER BOMB :) (15 July 2011)

aintgotnohay said:



			take the martingale off and for heavens sake dont ride in side reins-if the horse goes down it will impede him getting up.remember bearing reins-same thing but head is tied lower more or less.
		
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aintgotnohay can i ask why take the martingale off? as i was always told that it helps when a horses head reaches to high it puts pressure on the rien and bit to encourage to bring head back down?


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## lassiesuca (15 July 2011)

Okay no worries, but even still, you could all be doing it- especially if he is v. sensitive!!! 


Another thing to try is inhand work. I know lunging is the done thing, but I think it's very restricting. In-hand training is fantastic, and you can do a variety of stretches to train your horse, from his toes to his head- which help them carry themselves more naturally and teach them basic lessons, then slowly introduce this into the walk, and then the trot. 

I recommend Oliver Hilberger's 'Schooling Exercises In-Hand'. You can get it off Amazon pretty cheap (mine was £11) and it's helped me with both my young horses tremendously! 


Good luck


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## JAGER BOMB :) (15 July 2011)

lassiesuca said:



			Okay no worries, but even still, you could all be doing it- especially if he is v. sensitive!!! 


Another thing to try is inhand work. I know lunging is the done thing, but I think it's very restricting. In-hand training is fantastic, and you can do a variety of stretches to train your horse, from his toes to his head- which help them carry themselves more naturally and teach them basic lessons, then slowly introduce this into the walk, and then the trot. 

I recommend Oliver Hilberger's 'Schooling Exercises In-Hand'. You can get it off Amazon pretty cheap (mine was £11) and it's helped me with both my young horses tremendously! 


Good luck 

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aw thanks that sounds great. i do a bit of in hand work with him but nothing as much as that, i will defo get on amazon tonight and have a look  thanks xx


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## aintgotnohay (15 July 2011)

JAGER BOMB :) said:



			aintgotnohay can i ask why take the martingale off? as i was always told that it helps when a horses head reaches to high it puts pressure on the rien and bit to encourage to bring head back down?
		
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if your schooling i was always taught not to use martingales.if hacking it was okay.


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## JAGER BOMB :) (16 July 2011)

aintgotnohay said:



			if your schooling i was always taught not to use martingales.if hacking it was okay.
		
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yes agree with that (if he is not being ridden ) i never use his martingale if i am not ridding him and i am doing work with him. i have tried to ride without a martingale but his head is even worse than with it xx


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## Kat (16 July 2011)

I would ditch the gag bit. The action is designed to raise the head. Try a simple French link or lozenge snaffle.


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## charleysummer (16 July 2011)

I was wondering why nobody had mentioned to scrap the dutch gag then saw it on the last comment, 

the action is to raise the head for sports such as jumping where the head carraige needs to be higher- try a hanging cheek snaffle and if this doesnt work maybe try a kimblewick for a little while to encourage the horses head into a correct carraige and build up the muscles.

I put my girl in a kimblewick and she responded immediately to the curb and poll pressure, she has put on so much topline I can't believe it in such a short space of time (encouraged her to work correctly as well as just the head carraige!) and now back in a hanging cheek french link snaffle which she can work well in as her muscles are up to the job !


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## MydnightShadow (16 July 2011)

You say your horse is fine when working in circles etc it is just when going straight that you have the problem.  Try riding shoulder fore (not a full shoulder in) when going straight so that you still have a slight bend and can keep the horse concentrating.  It can help straighten a wiggly horse and steady a rushing horse as well.  

A bit that I have found really helped my sensitive mouthed ex-racehorse to relax was the Sprenger KK Ultra.  It is designed around the shape of the horses mouth to be most comfortable when the horse accepts the bit and carries its head correctly.  They have a whole selection of them in the range now including gags and snaffles etc so it may be worth trying a bit bank to find what works for you.  Also the width/ thickness of the bit can make a big difference to your horse depending on the size and shape of its mouth.  My ex-racehorse found a narrower bit more comfortable as he struggle to get his mouth round a big fat one.


About the KK Ultras:
http://www.sprenger.de/open/language_id/2/action/standard;detail/menu/267/M/BFyCCw

The variety of bits they do:
http://www.sprenger.de/send_file.php/material/1-HS-Trensen-09-11-54_72dpi_web.pdf


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## JAGER BOMB :) (16 July 2011)

MydnightShadow said:



			You say your horse is fine when working in circles etc it is just when going straight that you have the problem.  Try riding shoulder fore (not a full shoulder in) when going straight so that you still have a slight bend and can keep the horse concentrating.  It can help straighten a wiggly horse and steady a rushing horse as well.  

A bit that I have found really helped my sensitive mouthed ex-racehorse to relax was the Sprenger KK Ultra.  It is designed around the shape of the horses mouth to be most comfortable when the horse accepts the bit and carries its head correctly.  They have a whole selection of them in the range now including gags and snaffles etc so it may be worth trying a bit bank to find what works for you.  Also the width/ thickness of the bit can make a big difference to your horse depending on the size and shape of its mouth.  My ex-racehorse found a narrower bit more comfortable as he struggle to get his mouth round a big fat one.


About the KK Ultras:
http://www.sprenger.de/open/language_id/2/action/standard;detail/menu/267/M/BFyCCw

The variety of bits they do:
http://www.sprenger.de/send_file.php/material/1-HS-Trensen-09-11-54_72dpi_web.pdf

Click to expand...

thanks i will try that later on tonight when i go down. and i will look into the bits you suggested xx


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## TheSylv007 (16 July 2011)

nothing wrong with  a Dutch gag, its not a true gag as the bit is not raised in the mouth when the reins are shortened, if anything it applies poll pressure through leverage on the rings so would not be counter productive in your case.  I don't see a problem with using a martingale either, only comes into play when needed.


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## Kat (16 July 2011)

It is raised in the mouth because the mouthpiece slides round the loose bit rings and so is a true gag.


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## Kokopelli (16 July 2011)

There is no quick fix to this as basically you need to re-build muscle on his neck where he has never had muscle before.

I would ditch the dutch gag as it can encourage wrong muscle development. 

I would lunge twice a week trying to get his head as low as possible (this isn't 'correct' as the poll should be the highest point) but for muscle building purposes it will work. When riding have your contact elastic and giving with the right amount of leg pushing his bum underneath him into your even elastic contact. When he starts to lower his head shadow your hands along his neck which will allow him to stretch longer and lower and praise him. 

To begin with the stretches down will be very short maybe only a couple of strides but eventually it will become more consistent. Lots of lateral work will also help with suppleness and lots of circles and turns, when you're schooling you shouldn't do one side of the school without doing a circle or turn.

Hope this helps, my lad used to go with his ears in my face and 7 months later he is doing some pretty decent flat work.


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## rolsterlady (16 July 2011)

do you have an instructor? if so what have they suggested?

I wouldnt use side reins when riding, too fixed in my opinion..

I find a harbridge (training aid) is good, as it isnt as restrictive as other training aids but encourages the head down, rather than in. I use it very loosely, so it's not restrictive just encouraging 

also when schooling, lots of transitions, circles, bending, and making your horse 'think', he should, with time, learn that it's easier to work with his head lower than it is now


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## JAGER BOMB :) (17 July 2011)

rolsterlady said:



			do you have an instructor? if so what have they suggested?

I wouldnt use side reins when riding, too fixed in my opinion..

I find a harbridge (training aid) is good, as it isnt as restrictive as other training aids but encourages the head down, rather than in. I use it very loosely, so it's not restrictive just encouraging 

also when schooling, lots of transitions, circles, bending, and making your horse 'think', he should, with time, learn that it's easier to work with his head lower than it is now 

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it was my instructor (who is also my friend ) who suggested it.


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## JAGER BOMB :) (17 July 2011)

thanks for the advice everyone now i have loads of stuff i can try out with him over the next few weeks/ months  fingers crossed something will work xxx

very much appreciated xxx

thank you


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## Foxhunter49 (17 July 2011)

KristmasKatt said:



			It is raised in the mouth because the mouthpiece slides round the loose bit rings and so is a true gag.
		
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The Dutch gag is *not* a true gag, _if _the loose rings make it into a gag then a loose ring snaffle would act the same way.


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## Mondy (17 July 2011)

Don't use fancy bits, additional 'reins' or lunge/hill tricks which merely tire the horse. 

This sounds to me like a horse which has been utterly 'mis-trained'. You need to go back to basics - both for your own sake and for your horse.

I am also tempted to say that any riding instructor recommending a quick-fix solution of bits and rein-aid needs to be replaced by one with an appreciation of how a horse works, physically and mentally.

I recommend Museler's excellent book, available in English translation:    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Riding-Logi...9513/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1310862603&sr=8-1 .  It is required reading for any rider, regardless of discipline or level.


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## JAGER BOMB :) (17 July 2011)

yes he is going back to basics and getting re-schooled ect. which is why i am asking how i might be able to sort this out. he is only 5 and his old owner (or whoever broke him in) literally backed him and then rode him, he had never been lunged or anything like that he has never had any real training apart from to let a rider get on and sort of ride. 

all the questions i have asked are because i dont want to make mistakes with him (or try not to)  i want to take things slow with him, and turn him into the type of horse i know he has the potential to be


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## Kat (17 July 2011)

Foxhunter, can't quote on my phone, but a dutch gag is a gag where a loose ring snaffle isn't because the cheekpiece and rein are in fixed positions, they create leverage and lift the mouthpiece. It might be milder than other gags but it is a gag, unless it is being used with a curb strap to stop the cheeks rotating forward..........


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## much-jittering (17 July 2011)

I'm with Mondy (and my post on page 1), I think you might need another instructor. In addition to your current one if you want as you obviously have a lot of time for her - but if somebody gave me the advice you were given in a professional capacity, I would not use their services again. It's pretty basic Pony Club to know that riding in side reins isn't safe.


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