# Co-Ownership



## YoungEventer (18 April 2013)

Me and one of my really good friends have always wanted to own a horse... However our parents problems have always been money... Time.... You know! So we were thinking about maybe buying a horse together as this would half the costs and time involved. We are both quite competent riders, my friend starting when she was little at riding schools and even though I've been riding less that her I've progressed MASSIVELY and have already part loaned a horse so I already have some experience... 
Anyways onto the question! I was basically wondering what people's thoughts on this was... What rules we should put in place... etc.. Now we haven't actually talks to our parents yet as we want to make sure whether or not it could work and worth them considering. 
Thanks for any ideas/advice in advance! Oh and I hope I've made sense -.-


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## tinap (19 April 2013)

I would really have a good think about it first. I went into co ownership with my best friend. It was fab while it lasted (a good few years). I ended up with no horse & no best friend. Long story but I would never do it again xx


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## hnmisty (19 April 2013)

As said above- think carefully. 

Could you/your parents afford to buy your friend's share of the horse off her and afford to keep him by yourself if she decided she wanted out? Or would you have to sell against your will?

Who would be responsible for vets bills if the horse was injured whilst in your/your friend's care? (eg out hacking, at a comp). Would you split the bills or would the one who was with the horse at the time pay them?

What if you find your dream horse when you are looking but your friend doesn't like it? It's hard enough to find a horse you like enough to buy on your own, let alone when two of you need to agree on it!

Competitions, shows etc- how would you decide on who got to take your horse/will you go together both enter classes with it?

What days would you have each? If say you had Saturdays, and your friend wanted to take it to a show on a Sat, would you object? 

Do you even have similar budgets? 

Tbh, I see many more negative points about this than positives, and of course the main risk is, as happened to tinap (my sympathies) are that you could end up with no friend and no horse...


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## YoungEventer (19 April 2013)

@ Tinap - Im so sorry to hear that it went wrong for you!  Thanks for the warning though!

@ Hnmisty - Me and my friend read through your reply and most of the things you mentioned we actually had covered... Tbh we are actually quite laid back so needing to swap days for shows etc. isn't a problem at all. And as for the vet bills (We've written a mini contract as an example of how things would work ...) We have this...

2. If for any reason there is an accident caused by the one of the parties then they would be responsible for paying the excess amount the insurance requires.

3. In the case of an accident occurring while nobody is around or it is neither party&#8217;s fault then both parties are responsible for paying equal half amounts towards the excess amount the insurance requires

So those basically cover vet bills and who would pay! 

When you mentioned the 'Dream Horse' part, I have to say that made me think a little more than the others and also was one we discussed quite a bit!  As we are the same level riders that wouldn't be a problem, so we decided to talk about what we would want to do. I'm eventing, as my name suggests!  And she is Dressage / Cross country so in that way we both want a similar horse. It was also same for temperment and character, tbh it was pretty creepy as our 'Perfect Horse' was almost exactly the same! xD


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## Morgan123 (19 April 2013)

Hello,

It's good that you're thinking it through so carefully.These thigns are always surprisingly difficult. I wouldn't do it, personally, having lost friends through similar sorts of things (for example, renting houses from friends), and horses are even worse becuase of the emotional component as well! 

An example is this - you say in the case of injury whihc is nobody's fault you split the vets bill. This reminds me of a friend who used to share a pony. One day she took the pony on a hack, plodding down the road, fine fine fine, after a mile or two went to trot, pony lame. Turns out to be an abscess, discovered later. The owner insisted she must have stood on a nail on the hack because she was fine for the first mile, (so therefore the sharer should pay the bill), the sharer (riding) said but she was just walking sowouldn't have necessarily noticed a slight lameness and it was more likely to have been in the field so owner should pay. They sorted it out, but little things like that can have a big impact. How do you decide who's fault an injury is? If you're riding is it always your fault? What if you do eventing and your friend only does dressage for a few months, and then it gets a tendon injury - that's more likely to be your fault, which she could argue - but you couldn't pinpoint it so you'd probably think it just happened....it always just depends which view you're looking from.

Or, if you're both riding at a show, and you both go into a jump and the pony is lame after. Is that your fault or is that just a split-vet-bill becuase it could have happened to either of you?

I am sure there are examples of people who make these things work, but there are LOTS of examples where it all goes horribly wrong - so be REALLY really careful.


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## YoungEventer (19 April 2013)

I think in the event neither is sure on who's fault it was we would just split the bill, thus causing less arguments? Tbh when we wrote that I think we were probably thinkingof something more obvious? Thanks for the scenario! We really want to check everything out before even thinking about confronting our parents with this 'proposal'


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## Jools2345 (19 April 2013)

just a thought but would you be better off part loaning a horse each on the same yard, then you get to ride and compete together  and if one of you wanted to give up then its not a problem


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## elsielouise (19 April 2013)

Its a lovely idea BUT as others have said full of pitfalls and as a parent I think my answer would be no regardless of how well thought through the proposal was as there are simply too many potential problems with sharing in this way. 

I think its a really good idea to look for a share of a horse each on the same yard though. And my parent head would support that completely. Particularly if you could 'earn' some of the cost by helping the owner.

Having said all that race horses are often owned by syndicates and top class horses frequently owned by multiple stakeholders so you may be better off looking for a really professional contract and seeing if that changes things. 

I certainly wouldn't even consider entering into a purchase with the parents of a friend of my child's; which is what you are asking really without a legally binding agreement.


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## YoungEventer (19 April 2013)

@ Jools2345 - That's actually a good idea... Will look into that however if co-owning could work that's probably even better! But thanks anyways! 

@ ElsieLouise - I think that's what we'd do, get a legal contract that is. Because then if anything did go pear-shaped there would be something in place! Actually one of the very first things we did was come up with a 'contract' obviously we would get a proper one but it just gives you the idea of how things could work etc.


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## Clodagh (19 April 2013)

Friends of mine own a horse, half each. He now needs to be PTS, he is old and lame, and no one will make the decision, equally no one will spend all the money for the vets to give him more bute and so on, so he is just hanging in there and it is hideous.
Who makes the final decision? What if one of you thinks it is right and one doesn't? What if one wants to sell and one doesn't? I would say it can work, and has for years with this old boy, its when things aren't going smoothly the problems start.


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## hnmisty (19 April 2013)

Clodagh said:



			Friends of mine own a horse, half each. He now needs to be PTS, he is old and lame, and no one will make the decision, equally no one will spend all the money for the vets to give him more bute and so on, so he is just hanging in there and it is hideous.
		
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That's awful. Poor lad. I hope one of them is able to buckle up to the true responsibility of horse owning and do the right thing for him


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## YoungEventer (19 April 2013)

Awwww that's do sad! Personally I would have him puts however heartbreaking it would be the horse's welfare comes first! Well with me anyways!
I think maybe me and my friend going through some problem scenarios could help... As it would give us a better idea of what it would be like? So if anyone has some scenarios we could use it would be much appreciated!


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## mandwhy (20 April 2013)

It's pretty hard even sharing someone else's horse to be honest. There is always a part of you that wants to make all the decisions but at the end of the day they are the boss and if you don't like it lump it! 

There are endless scenarios depending on how petty you might be haha! We can all be a bit petty let's face it! 

I would go for the share at the same yard option, it may mean one of you has to find a share first to open doors for the other - hopefully you'll find someone with two horses and a lorry ;-)


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## Jasmine86 (20 April 2013)

This is something I've considered and decided against. What if for financial reasons one of you needs to sell? Even the value of the horse would be in question more, less or the same as you paid?

If you want to try take a horse on full loan and try sharing it for a year. See how it works out? 
Realistically one of you should buy and the other part loan it 3 days a week.
 You say you don't mind sharing it but Xc and ODEs can be hard to come by and if you want to do the same height then one has to ride hc. Also is it fair for the horse to always do a few classes? Will it get tired? 

I used to share a ride at shows and as I jumped the bigger classes she always seemed bored or a bit tired as in her eyes she'd finished. Whereas if I rode her first she'd fly round.

Just a thought


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## YoungEventer (20 April 2013)

Jasmine86 said:



			This is something I've considered and decided against. What if for financial reasons one of you needs to sell? Even the value of the horse would be in question more, less or the same as you paid?

If you want to try take a horse on full loan and try sharing it for a year. See how it works out? 
Realistically one of you should buy and the other part loan it 3 days a week.
 You say you don't mind sharing it but Xc and ODEs can be hard to come by and if you want to do the same height then one has to ride hc. Also is it fair for the horse to always do a few classes? Will it get tired? 

I used to share a ride at shows and as I jumped the bigger classes she always seemed bored or a bit tired as in her eyes she'd finished. Whereas if I rode her first she'd fly round.

Just a thought
		
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Well in the case of sale we would get whatever percentage we paid so say I payed 60 percent and her 40 I would get 60 percent and so on...

I think the full loan idea is actually quite a good one, especially if it was lwvtb? Because then if it did work out and we both wanted to keep the horse/pony we could! 

As for shows, the ones we ride on the same day would probably only be small local shows etc. so it wouldn't put too much strain on the horse and then as we progress depending on who's show it is (shes dressage and i'm eventing) we would groom for the other... Least that's what we agreed upon yesterday!  We'd also have to be careful about events clashing so we'd probably have a diary to share and write the dates in advance, hopefully avoiding confusion! xD


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## Ludi-doodi (20 April 2013)

Just a few thoughts here, some might seem really silly but its those silly things that can make sharing very annoying/frustrating and lead to the big arguments.  


Who cleans the tack and when - easy really, but its bloomin annoying to think its been done and you get there to find dirty tack!
Who owns what - if you buy something, a piece of tack, rug, numnah it is yours, both of yours or belong to the horse and goes with it if you sell?  If something is broken, who pays for repairs?
 Who will manage the finances? One person pays for everything and other reimburses at the end of each week/month? A joint 'kitty' you both pay into each week/month?  What happens if money is missing?
Who is the emergency contact for yard owner when neither of you are there - I know both of you but if an accident happens on a Tuesday and its not your day to go but YO can't get hold of your partner....
You need to agree a regime of care eg must attend by 9.30am every morning including weekends and by 8pm in the evening (unless you're planning full livery), 
How much to feed, when to adjust that etc.  Some of this might not be possible to agree until you have a horse, but things to consider
What's a reasonable length of time to ride when schooling, when jumping, when hacking. This bit is really important because neither of you want a tired horse when its your turn to ride if the person the day before rode for 5 hours!  Equally what's the minimum - 20 mins lunge, 30 mins school etc.  
Who else will be able to ride the horse?  I'd be mighty upset if all my partners friends were riding too
Agree goals for both you and the horse. I used to share and spent a lot of time and effort making the horse ride forward into a contact, my sharer was less bothered so each time I got on board, I had to spend time reminding horse what to do... it was frustrating for me and confusing for the horse
Assuming you each do 3 days and the horse has one day off a week, who will look after it on its day off - can the day off be switched and who would be responsible
How much notice do you need to give each other to swap days you ride/horse's day off
Who pays for vets bills where an insurance claim is not required - kick in the field that need a stitch, fall in the road whilst riding, mild colic etc
Who will be the registered owner - on the passport, the insurance policy etc.  It might be possible to have both parties names, but I'm not sure. Worth looking into.  Therefore,who will have the legal responsibility.  If not both names on the main insurance policy, can the other person be added as a 'named rider' or would they need to get their own public liability insurance for example?

Just some things to think through, and by no means everything.  Some bits as mentioned can only be decided/agreed when you have the horse and you know its previous regime and feeding requirements.

I used to share a horse with someone who was severely allergic to dust  so I had to fill all the haynets and do the big muck outs each weekend.  It felt a bit one-sided rather than a 50/50 share of the responsibilities.  The easy thing was neither of us shared the horse so if it all went wonky (it didn't) the horse could be returned to its owner.

As others have said its fraught with difficulties, but you do both appear to be giving it some considerable thought.   It might be worth looking at the BHS Loan Agreement template for other ideas.


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## YoungEventer (20 April 2013)

Ludi-doodi said:



			Just a few thoughts here, some might seem really silly but its those silly things that can make sharing very annoying/frustrating and lead to the big arguments.  


Who cleans the tack and when - easy really, but its bloomin annoying to think its been done and you get there to find dirty tack!
Who owns what - if you buy something, a piece of tack, rug, numnah it is yours, both of yours or belong to the horse and goes with it if you sell?  If something is broken, who pays for repairs?
 Who will manage the finances? One person pays for everything and other reimburses at the end of each week/month? A joint 'kitty' you both pay into each week/month?  What happens if money is missing?
Who is the emergency contact for yard owner when neither of you are there - I know both of you but if an accident happens on a Tuesday and its not your day to go but YO can't get hold of your partner....
You need to agree a regime of care eg must attend by 9.30am every morning including weekends and by 8pm in the evening (unless you're planning full livery), 
How much to feed, when to adjust that etc.  Some of this might not be possible to agree until you have a horse, but things to consider
What's a reasonable length of time to ride when schooling, when jumping, when hacking. This bit is really important because neither of you want a tired horse when its your turn to ride if the person the day before rode for 5 hours!  Equally what's the minimum - 20 mins lunge, 30 mins school etc.  
Who else will be able to ride the horse?  I'd be mighty upset if all my partners friends were riding too
Agree goals for both you and the horse. I used to share and spent a lot of time and effort making the horse ride forward into a contact, my sharer was less bothered so each time I got on board, I had to spend time reminding horse what to do... it was frustrating for me and confusing for the horse
Assuming you each do 3 days and the horse has one day off a week, who will look after it on its day off - can the day off be switched and who would be responsible
How much notice do you need to give each other to swap days you ride/horse's day off
Who pays for vets bills where an insurance claim is not required - kick in the field that need a stitch, fall in the road whilst riding, mild colic etc
Who will be the registered owner - on the passport, the insurance policy etc.  It might be possible to have both parties names, but I'm not sure. Worth looking into.  Therefore,who will have the legal responsibility.  If not both names on the main insurance policy, can the other person be added as a 'named rider' or would they need to get their own public liability insurance for example?

Just some things to think through, and by no means everything.  Some bits as mentioned can only be decided/agreed when you have the horse and you know its previous regime and feeding requirements.

I used to share a horse with someone who was severely allergic to dust  so I had to fill all the haynets and do the big muck outs each weekend.  It felt a bit one-sided rather than a 50/50 share of the responsibilities.  The easy thing was neither of us shared the horse so if it all went wonky (it didn't) the horse could be returned to its owner.

As others have said its fraught with difficulties, but you do both appear to be giving it some considerable thought.   It might be worth looking at the BHS Loan Agreement template for other ideas.
		
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Thanks for the list of things to think about! Tbh if we ever did do anything some form of co-owning probably would be our best bet... Even though we understand that things have gone wrong for other people which we have taken into consideration we for some reason have a feeling that it might work? Especially since we've literally had the same answer every time we've discussed scenarios!  Oh and thanks for the BHS Loan agreement template idea, about to have a look now...!


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## hnmisty (20 April 2013)

I commend you for discussing possible scenarios...but that goes out the window the moment you find your horse on the floor, suffering. That point in time when one of you thinks your horse should not be left to suffer any longer, but the other one thinks treatment would work. How do you decide that? That's when it really matters.

You've said you're looking at co-ownership because of your parents' concerns about money. So could you/they actually afford to buy out your friend's share, or vice versa for your share? And take on 100% of the costs for upkeep?


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## YoungEventer (20 April 2013)

hnmisty said:



			I commend you for discussing possible scenarios...but that goes out the window the moment you find your horse on the floor, suffering. That point in time when one of you thinks your horse should not be left to suffer any longer, but the other one thinks treatment would work. How do you decide that? That's when it really matters.

You've said you're looking at co-ownership because of your parents' concerns about money. So could you/they actually afford to buy out your friend's share, or vice versa for your share? And take on 100% of the costs for upkeep?
		
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In the case of splitting buying the other half of the share would be possible and in terms of upkeep my parents said if I ever got a horse we would probably need to find a sharer... Which yes can be difficult to find however in our 'example contract' you would need to give 3 months notice which would hopefully give some time to look into ways of being able to afford the said horse / pony. Actually my parents saying I would need a sharer is kind of what gave us the idea!


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## hnmisty (20 April 2013)

Well, you and your friend seem to have given it a good thinking over, best of luck if you go ahead with it


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## Jasmine86 (21 April 2013)

Best of luck with it you have clearly given it a lot of thought. about buying the other person out. Remember horses values fluctuate based on health, age, experience and the market at the time so it may not be as simple as just returning the other persons money. Maybe 3 independent valuations and go with the middle?


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## madmav (21 April 2013)

I know someone who has done it very successfully with a co-owner. He is rich, she is very knowledgeable and makes sure he has a lovely horse to ride when he's not busy making money. It's a partnership made in heaven. Not easy to find, but not impossible.


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## YoungEventer (21 April 2013)

Thanks


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