# Session number 14 collected trot & passage beginning.



## Armas (28 July 2013)

Another productive session staring to work on his collected trot and the beginnings of passage ! 

​<span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 17px; text-align: left; ">[video=youtube_share;bP4nXyWXbo0]http://youtu.be/bP4nXyWXbo0[/video]


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## kip22 (28 July 2013)

I watched the first couple of the schooling sessions, and then could not watch anymore as it was depressing me, I thought I would take a look at this one thinking there must be an improvement, I was wrong.   How can you allow this rider to do this to your horse?  It is disgusting.  She insists he is behind the vertical even on a long rein, why will she not let him see where he is going?!!! She is going to break him, he WILL have back and neck problems, and It is amazing how he can actually breathe when she is riding him!  She looks like he has lost condition, and towards the end of that film he looked very stressed with those little hops, kicking out, and tossing his head.
His hind legs are not working...because they cant.


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## twiggy2 (28 July 2013)

kip22 this horse does have a history of evading work by putting himself behind the vertical, you cannot force a horse to work behind the vertical on a long rein that is illogical to my mind.

however i do wish this rider would stop trying to run before she can walk with Armas, he will not consistently work forward, straight and in an outline so why James is she trying to collect and passage? and why does she send him running on so flat/on the forehand and fast? to my mind it achieves nothing other that possibly teaching him another evasion for the future.

he does looks stressed (again) in this video but that is sometimes the case (and not always avoidable) when teaching something new especially if communication between horse and rider is not clear.

bit disappointed in this session tbh James, i have seen improvements in the last couple of training sessions but this would looks like it will be a fair step back to Armas and his confidence with this rider, she does not even finish by asking him questions he finds easy such as a bit of lateral work to end on a positive note with him.

from what i saw the passage did nothing to engage his hind end but quite the opposite


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## kip22 (28 July 2013)

Of course you can put a horse behind the vertical on long reins, every time he goes to stretch his nose forwards she clicks at him to get his attention I assume, them gives a little pull of the reins so he brings his nose in, you do talk sense though, and your comments about this horse are correct, this rider does nothing to encourage the horse to not go behind the vertical though, in fact she seems to reward him when be over bends.


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## kip22 (28 July 2013)

In fact if you pause the video at the start when she is "stretching" him, you can see he is well behind the vertical.


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## milliepops (28 July 2013)

I thought the initial basic way of going was an improvement on the last ridden day indoors. Before the collected work, he looked like he was taking her along a bit more, approaching the work he was producing outdoors, accepting the aids, into the contact, a more balanced trot  

Kip22, it's a shame if you have not watched them all  because I think you have missed out on seeing some really positive improvements, particularly recently on the long reins but also under saddle. I don't think it's fair to say she is insisting he is btv at all - you can hear her talking to him and correcting him when he curls up too much, she offers her hands forward frequently and he is now responding to that. I think she clicks at him when he stops travelling forward - I get the impression he is behind the leg quite a lot but if she asks too strongly he  blows up, so the clicking is to try and keep the energy IMO 

FWIW I didn't get the impression that she was collecting and working towards passage as an end in itself and I think her comments at the end explained the reasons for this work.  

Also she said yesterday she was working on control and not allowing the horse to decide for himself when he did things, so working on & back in the trot is a very normal thing to do.  I thought the passagey work was aiming to maintain activity while shortening the trot steps - he has a tendency to flatten and withdraw back when asked to collect (or even to half halt) so actually to keep snapping up behind is a step in the right direction. It's not unusual for a horse to over-react when challenged this way to start with and when allowed forward he is beginning to take bigger, more engaged steps in rhythm although, granted, the tension has spoilt the contact a little *today* :wink3:


The stretchy trot at the end looked more familiar to him now and I thought it was positive that he offered that even though he had been pushed out of his comfort zone quite a lot today.

As usual, JMHO and trying to give some balance to the discussions!  I always try to view these with an open mind especially as we have see some really nice work before now  So with my own horse I might not have pursued the collection for as long a period, but then I know what she feels like and how she learns best. She has also been tentative to the contact in the past and I'm afraid of breaking that.  And I'm not the one sitting on this horse  sometimes when they are on the brink of understanding, an extra half circuit makes the difference. 

I'm *guessing* you were stuck indoors again today J? Where he is unlikely to produce his best work, going by yesterday's session. As well as being small, it's also a noisy arena by the sound of it and he is a bit spooked by the doors and windows.

So for me, the BTV issue is really not *always* the top priority. The overall quality of the work is improving little by little and as it does so, he becomes even IFV  (agree today was a little messy, but it was a new challenge for him, which is why the context of the full set of videos is so useful in understanding).


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

I fear she may well have undone some of his hard work yesterday. He is back to being overfaced and unsettled, I do not understand why she asks for that speed when he needs to learn to balance himself, or the collection for that matter, too much too soon for me, but then you already knew what I would say


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## fankino04 (28 July 2013)

At the risk of sounding bitchy here could someone please explain why a professional trainer thinks it is a good idea to push an unbalanced horse that is not working in a consistant and supple outline, who is still not listening or maybe understanding her seat a d legs and is certainly not confident into much more advanced movements like passage. I will agree that there has  been improvement in previous videos but it concerns me that these seam to be after you have raised concerns to her that people have voiced on your thread rather than through her really understanding the horse and wanting to nail the basics. She seems like she wants to push him into a pretty outline a d is unaware sometimes of how overbent and off balance he is and get him doing advanced stuff to show off how good she is which it clearly doesnt as the horse is not carrying himself in a way to be able to do it properly.  Sorry again if it seems like I am attacking ber but thats just what I see.


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## abitodd (28 July 2013)

Have you every tried working Armas to music? 
I will not criticize your trainer,but music may help on 2 levels. Most importantly,rhythm. He could be worked to a regular beat and learn to lengthen and shorten without rushing.(It would need to be less is more to start with)And secondly he may relax more with the right music.
Some horses even respond to the 'spring' of the beat of certain music(complicated to explain,but some music has a static,grounded beat and some has a bouncier feel) and this encourages elevation of the steps and thus leads to passage.


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## Marydoll (28 July 2013)

The whole process of whats going on from the start is still to rushed for me, why anyone wants to push this horse to even attempt piaffe when hes weak behind,not muscled up in the appropriate places, is  unbalanced and not supple enough is beyond me, but hes not my horse :-(


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## LollyDolly (28 July 2013)

I'm sorry but I think that Armas looks terrible, and he also looks so unhappy. 

His neck has little muscle and it makes his head look rather big, however you never will get his neck well muscled up in the right places if he keeps being worked like that. 

Definitely a step back in my books, I have no idea why you are so hellbent on keeping this trainer James, she may be good however she is just not good for Armas and it shows.


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## blitznbobs (28 July 2013)

14 days from start to passage is it me or is this a flawed training path- im all for working to a horses strengths but this horse is not straight and doesnt go forward - how can you think of doing passage.., forget about the btv and look at his legs im not sure hes overtracked once... why the rush?


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## Clava (28 July 2013)

blitznbobs said:



			14 days from start to passage is it me or is this a flawed training path- im all for working to a horses strengths but this horse is not straight and doesnt go forward - how can you think of doing passage.., forget about the btv and look at his legs im not sure hes overtracked once... why the rush?
		
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Quite agree. Another video which is uncomfortable to watch.


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

I have to admit to having very mixed views on this. I'll summarise to start and explain after if I can before being called away from the laptop...

I can understand what the trainer is trying to do and I agree with her reasons for it. I don't however believe that this will have a long term benefit on Armas. 

Understanding the trainer you need to understand the motivations. First and foremost, the trainer will have a reputation for getting results, she will, as she should, want to maintain this. Secondly, the trainer is acting for a client, James. She has a duty to her client to get results and make improvements and will have a personal reason for doing so and that is to keep the ride and so keep the business. Lastly, it takes a very very strong and secure person to be able to say when they are probably not quite right. I have a feeling this trainer may know in her heart of hearts that this isn't going to be the best partnership, but I don't think she will ever stand up and say that. I can't blame her for the first and second reasons...I do however wish she would. 

I am at the point in my assessment of this trainer that, despite who she trains with, she is an extremely talented rider and she does show a large degree of sympathy for the horse, or at least has shown that more and more through the process...as I have mentioned before, this I feel is more due to feedback from James than any introspection on her part.

So, what I like about her is that she is taking everything on board and making changes. 
What I don't like about her is that she is taking everything on board and making changes.

Confused? Apologies...but my point is that whilst it is admirable that she is allowing James to have so much input and she is willing to change and adapt...if she had her own plan for dealing with a horse like this that was based on experience...and a plan of how she was going to approach the rehabilitation, she would not be making changes based on ANY feedback. She would instead be saying things like, "I understand where you're coming from, but this is my plan, this is why it will work and if there are no improvements in the next 4 weeks, we'll look at changing the plan". 

All horses are different and have to be ridden as individuals, however, the basic strategy should be the same...it should just be the little methods that are adapted to the individual horse. This trainer hasn't changed little methods, she has been changing the entire plan. If I were paying good money to a professional, I would be wondering why they were listening to me so much when they are the expert?

That said, the fact that she has taking on board what James has been saying has meant that she has made things easier on Armas. Comparing her first few sessions, especially the first posted on here with more recent sessions have shown that she has been able to encourage more relaxation and willing from him. 

The great positives about this 14th session are that Armas is tucking in BTV a lot less. There's always yin and yang though. As much as it is great thing to see Armas less inclined to tuck so far behind so often...I don't think he'd have been doing it half as much again were he not being asked quite so much in this session. The truth is, he has had a certain way of going for a long time now. He simply can't be expected to hold a position that is, at the moment unfamiliar and uncomfortable for him. The tucks BTV in this session look to me more like he is just taking a quick break for his neck muscles as opposed to truly evading. He seems happier in the contact in general as a result of recent good work by the trainer...he just looks like he needs a break. It will take time for his muscling to change to support a better carriage, so until then, it should be taken slowly so as not to overdo it. Overdoing it creates tension and tension creates poor work.

Talking of tension, I saw too much of it in this session for me to be happy with the session overall. As another poster mentioned...you shouldn't run before you can walk. I understand the theory behind asking for collection...but the moment the goal comes at the cost of the horse is the moment the goal should be abandoned. 

In asking for the collection should engage the hind and lift the shoulders. The horse should be more in front of the rider...uphill...light on the forehand and "sitting" in the work. Baby steps is what creates this. If needed I can go through the video again when I have time and pin point the times where genuine opportunities for learning and improvement are lost. There are A LOT of those lost moments in this session. Because of that, the further along the session gets, the more I see a horse that is holding the head high through a tense neck, not through self carriage. I see this because the hind appears to almost bounce up and down, while the shoulders are low, heavy looking and inactive as a result of that. The back looks tight....which is where I have a genuine concern for Armas...this work puts him at risk of aggravating the issues he has, not working him through them.

The reasons this higher head carriage may, on the surface look like improvement are that the rein tension is low...sometimes the rein is actually loose while Armas has his head lifted up in these movements. This is one of the things we strive for when bringing this kind of work in. That should however come from the entire front end becoming so light that it all lifts up in front of the rider and the contact is not necessary as such. In this session, I see this lack of tension on the rein as being a result of a very tense and shortened neck and back...because the chest and shoulders are still so heavy.

I think he would have benefitted massively from working 3/4 of the session same as session 13, with perhaps no more than 5 minutes of the asking for collected steps...but asking in the right way. The rider sets it up fine, but as mentioned above, many opportunities for learning are missed. Instead, if she asked, got a few baby steps, even just two or three and rewarded immediately, then repeated just until the point that Armas understood and went back to the final part of the session being stretching and relaxed work again, we would see a much better picture. 

Instead, too much time IMO was spent on this collected work. I'm not really concerned with the kicking out so much. It isn't ideal as realistically, I would like to have seen the foundations of this work started on the ground but, you know what...it's a new thing and reactions will happen, so not too big of a deal. What is too big of a deal for me to be happy with is that the more she did, the worse he went and I feel like the trainer that had started to really listen to the horse has gone and been replaced with the trainer that only wants the horse to listen to her. It cannot and should not ever be a one way conversation. Yes, she is allowing him breaks and stretches, but it's not enough to slap someone then kiss them better, then slap them again and kiss them better again. They may be greatful for the kisses, but they won't forget the slaps! Armas may be greatful for the breaks and stretching, but it won't erase the tension from the collected work.

So....a word in the above paragraph really sums this whole thing up for me in what will be my proper summary...

Foundations! The foundations of advanced work should always be rhythm, relaxation, straightness, impulsion and connection. I would want a horse to be at least comfortably capable of all of these before I started asking for collection. Armas is not capable of all of these yet. He is still very inconsistent in his contact, inconsistent in his rhythm and relaxation, not straight and the impulsion is tentative. It's such a shame because all of these were being improved upon, but this session has put those improvements at risk of being damaged. 

Armas is possibly one of the most genuine, honest and willing horses I have seen working. He tries his absolute hardest. 

I don't outright dislike this trainer and my hats off to her for getting quick improvements on a horse like Armas, but I would caution her to take a step back, remember to listen to the horse, only progress when he is ready, not when she thinks he is ready and not undertake work that jeopardises the improvements that are so very valuable. 

I haven't got time to proof read this, so apologies if I have repeated myself or not made sense. 

Not awful, but too much stress back on Armas for my liking. 

James...I want your horse...he is so damn gorgeous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Dizzy socks (28 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			I have to admit to having very mixed views on this. I'll summarise to start and explain after if I can before being called away from the laptop...

I can understand what the trainer is trying to do and I agree with her reasons for it. I don't however believe that this will have a long term benefit on Armas. 

Understanding the trainer you need to understand the motivations. First and foremost, the trainer will have a reputation for getting results, she will, as she should, want to maintain this. Secondly, the trainer is acting for a client, James. She has a duty to her client to get results and make improvements and will have a personal reason for doing so and that is to keep the ride and so keep the business. Lastly, it takes a very very strong and secure person to be able to say when they are probably not quite right. I have a feeling this trainer may know in her heart of hearts that this isn't going to be the best partnership, but I don't think she will ever stand up and say that. I can't blame her for the first and second reasons...I do however wish she would. 

I am at the point in my assessment of this trainer that, despite who she trains with, she is an extremely talented rider and she does show a large degree of sympathy for the horse, or at least has shown that more and more through the process...as I have mentioned before, this I feel is more due to feedback from James than any introspection on her part.

So, what I like about her is that she is taking everything on board and making changes. 
What I don't like about her is that she is taking everything on board and making changes.

Confused? Apologies...but my point is that whilst it is admirable that she is allowing James to have so much input and she is willing to change and adapt...if she had her own plan for dealing with a horse like this that was based on experience...and a plan of how she was going to approach the rehabilitation, she would not be making changes based on ANY feedback. She would instead be saying things like, "I understand where you're coming from, but this is my plan, this is why it will work and if there are no improvements in the next 4 weeks, we'll look at changing the plan". 

All horses are different and have to be ridden as individuals, however, the basic strategy should be the same...it should just be the little methods that are adapted to the individual horse. This trainer hasn't changed little methods, she has been changing the entire plan. If I were paying good money to a professional, I would be wondering why they were listening to me so much when they are the expert?

That said, the fact that she has taking on board what James has been saying has meant that she has made things easier on Armas. Comparing her first few sessions, especially the first posted on here with more recent sessions have shown that she has been able to encourage more relaxation and willing from him. 

The great positives about this 14th session are that Armas is tucking in BTV a lot less. There's always yin and yang though. As much as it is great thing to see Armas less inclined to tuck so far behind so often...I don't think he'd have been doing it half as much again were he not being asked quite so much in this session. The truth is, he has had a certain way of going for a long time now. He simply can't be expected to hold a position that is, at the moment unfamiliar and uncomfortable for him. The tucks BTV in this session look to me more like he is just taking a quick break for his neck muscles as opposed to truly evading. He seems happier in the contact in general as a result of recent good work by the trainer...he just looks like he needs a break. It will take time for his muscling to change to support a better carriage, so until then, it should be taken slowly so as not to overdo it. Overdoing it creates tension and tension creates poor work.

Talking of tension, I saw too much of it in this session for me to be happy with the session overall. As another poster mentioned...you shouldn't run before you can walk. I understand the theory behind asking for collection...but the moment the goal comes at the cost of the horse is the moment the goal should be abandoned. 

In asking for the collection should engage the hind and lift the shoulders. The horse should be more in front of the rider...uphill...light on the forehand and "sitting" in the work. Baby steps is what creates this. If needed I can go through the video again when I have time and pin point the times where genuine opportunities for learning and improvement are lost. There are A LOT of those lost moments in this session. Because of that, the further along the session gets, the more I see a horse that is holding the head high through a tense neck, not through self carriage. I see this because the hind appears to almost bounce up and down, while the shoulders are low, heavy looking and inactive as a result of that. The back looks tight....which is where I have a genuine concern for Armas...this work puts him at risk of aggravating the issues he has, not working him through them.

The reasons this higher head carriage may, on the surface look like improvement are that the rein tension is low...sometimes the rein is actually loose while Armas has his head lifted up in these movements. This is one of the things we strive for when bringing this kind of work in. That should however come from the entire front end becoming so light that it all lifts up in front of the rider and the contact is not necessary as such. In this session, I see this lack of tension on the rein as being a result of a very tense and shortened neck and back...because the chest and shoulders are still so heavy.

I think he would have benefitted massively from working 3/4 of the session same as session 13, with perhaps no more than 5 minutes of the asking for collected steps...but asking in the right way. The rider sets it up fine, but as mentioned above, many opportunities for learning are missed. Instead, if she asked, got a few baby steps, even just two or three and rewarded immediately, then repeated just until the point that Armas understood and went back to the final part of the session being stretching and relaxed work again, we would see a much better picture. 

Instead, too much time IMO was spent on this collected work. I'm not really concerned with the kicking out so much. It isn't ideal as realistically, I would like to have seen the foundations of this work started on the ground but, you know what...it's a new thing and reactions will happen, so not too big of a deal. What is too big of a deal for me to be happy with is that the more she did, the worse he went and I feel like the trainer that had started to really listen to the horse has gone and been replaced with the trainer that only wants the horse to listen to her. It cannot and should not ever be a one way conversation. Yes, she is allowing him breaks and stretches, but it's not enough to slap someone then kiss them better, then slap them again and kiss them better again. They may be greatful for the kisses, but they won't forget the slaps! Armas may be greatful for the breaks and stretching, but it won't erase the tension from the collected work.

So....a word in the above paragraph really sums this whole thing up for me in what will be my proper summary...

Foundations! The foundations of advanced work should always be rhythm, relaxation, straightness, impulsion and connection. I would want a horse to be at least comfortably capable of all of these before I started asking for collection. Armas is not capable of all of these yet. He is still very inconsistent in his contact, inconsistent in his rhythm and relaxation, not straight and the impulsion is tentative. It's such a shame because all of these were being improved upon, but this session has put those improvements at risk of being damaged. 

Armas is possibly one of the most genuine, honest and willing horses I have seen working. He tries his absolute hardest. 

I don't outright dislike this trainer and my hats off to her for getting quick improvements on a horse like Armas, but I would caution her to take a step back, remember to listen to the horse, only progress when he is ready, not when she thinks he is ready and not undertake work that jeopardises the improvements that are so very valuable. 

I haven't got time to proof read this, so apologies if I have repeated myself or not made sense. 

Not awful, but too much stress back on Armas for my liking. 

James...I want your horse...he is so damn gorgeous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
		
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Wow...just as enlightening as ever. I am always completely absorbed when I read your posts, they are brilliant!


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## joeanne (28 July 2013)

Poor horse......as always, unhappy, overfaced and that "trainer" needs to learn to rise to the trot properly.


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## Armas (28 July 2013)

I just wanted to clarify a couple of points. The trainers adaptation is 99.9% her own doing, I make the odd suggestion such as removing the flash which she agreed was not necessary.
We have discussed the issues she rides she does what she thinks is necessary if I don't agree with some thing. She has a good understanding of Armas and his issues and is carrying out the work as she see fits. We may not agree with her methods or the structure how ever no trainer is the same and we all do things in different ways.
She is working on maintaining contact no matter where Armas puts his head BTV or up the contact is kept and evasion is not allowed. 
The last two sessions have been indoors as the main arena was to wet. The small arena is not ideal hence she changed the work.
The collection will help with engagement. Armas tends to 'run' rather than trot we are working to changing that. The difference lies in the moment of suspension. A balanced/cadenced trot has a long moment of suspension (think of Passage as the ultimate in cadence ) and comes from a trot where the hind legs step under and lift the shoulders. All trot work should be towards that aim.

I agree it's not perfect, but he is enjoying the challenge I see that, and is working in a far better frame (of body and mind) I see improvement, and am pleased with how he's progressing.Rome wasn't built in a day, or that there is good tension as well as bad tension. Top athletes wouldn't get anywhere if they didn't use their muscles with a degree of tension, neither would horses. This is not a horse being asked to bumble along on a loose rein, the work he is doing is challenging him physically


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## pardalis (28 July 2013)

I have been watching these videos with great interest. 

As GG has said - this is all too rushed. The basic paces need to be correct before any advanced movements are attempted. 

Armas is beautiful with great potential. But, the walk and trot must be forward and balanced before any collecting can be taught. This is not there yet. Let alone cadence in trot which can only be achieved once forward, balanced and collected is perfect. 

I can only imagine that this rider feels under pressure to demonstrate the end result quickly. That's not going to happen. As for piaffe and passage? Not going to happen at this stage. Those hind legs are way too stiff and not working correctly. 

And such movements are better taught on the ground before on top. But not until the basic paces are there.


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

I am really unsure as to why any of us bother posting on these threads anymore. I say what I see in a few short lines but poor GG spends a long time writing on here and what's the point? It's not helping the horse as James JUST sees something quite different. It's hilarious and so puzzling!


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## joeanne (28 July 2013)

Armas said:



			I agree it's not perfect, but he is enjoying the challenge I see that, and is working in a far better frame (of body and mind)
		
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Sorry Armas but you are clearly watching a totally different video to the rest of us. The horse is being made to run before he can walk, and to me, you seem to confuse "looking pretty" with progress.
Shame you can't send him to GG who talks a whole lot of sense!


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## Fairynuff (28 July 2013)

Armas said:



			I just wanted to clarify a couple of points. The trainers adaptation is 99.9% her own doing, I make the odd suggestion such as removing the flash which she agreed was not necessary.
We have discussed the issues she rides she does what she thinks is necessary if I don't agree with some thing. She has a good understanding of Armas and his issues and is carrying out the work as she see fits. We may not agree with her methods or the structure how ever no trainer is the same and we all do things in different ways.
She is working on maintaining contact no matter where Armas puts his head BTV or up the contact is kept and evasion is not allowed. 
The last two sessions have been indoors as the main arena was to wet. The small arena is not ideal hence she changed the work.
The collection will help with engagement. Armas tends to 'run' rather than trot we are working to changing that. The difference lies in the moment of suspension. A balanced/cadenced trot has a long moment of suspension (think of Passage as the ultimate in cadence ) and comes from a trot where the hind legs step under and lift the shoulders. All trot work should be towards that aim.

I agree it's not perfect, but he is enjoying the challenge I see that, and is working in a far better frame (of body and mind) I see improvement, and am pleased with how he's progressing.Rome wasn't built in a day, or that there is good tension as well as bad tension. Top athletes wouldn't get anywhere if they didn't use their muscles with a degree of tension, neither would horses. This is not a horse being asked to bumble along on a loose rein, the work he is doing is challenging him physically
		
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to put it bluntly, are you having an affair with with the young lady riding him? There is no one so deaf as someone who doesn't want to hear. You are systematically ruining your horse.


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## twiggy2 (28 July 2013)

James that is the most blinded response I have read from you.


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

Interesting to hear the words of others in your post too James. The cadence, the moments of suspension...hardly your regular venacular. Just see with your own eyes and think with your own mind for a change - I remember asking you to do that in response to video 3 and here we are on session 14.


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## blitznbobs (28 July 2013)

you said yourself he had a peoblem with his right hind so u want to put the pressure of passage onto a damaged hock? this just seems a good way to break him permeantly.


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## Armas (28 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			I am really unsure as to why any of us bother posting on these threads anymore. I say what I see in a few short lines but poor GG spends a long time writing on here and what's the point? It's not helping the horse as James JUST sees something quite different. It's hilarious and so puzzling!
		
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I keep my posts short as I am not going to be drawn in to a slaging  match about the trainer. I respond to GG by PM as she has stated in the past. I post the videos as others have asked as they find it interesting.
Your constant negativity and trying to stir things up does become rather tiresome after awhile.



joeanne said:



			Sorry Armas but you are clearly watching a totally different video to the rest of us. The horse is being made to run before he can walk, and to me, you seem to confuse "looking pretty" with progress.
Shame you can't send him to GG who talks a whole lot of sense!
		
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Interestingly that is exactly what some one said about the comments on this thread on Facebook ! I do not confuse looking pretty with work. It would be very interesting for some of the critics to post a couple of videos of them ridding a collected horse to show me how its done.


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## MissTyc (28 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			Interesting to hear the words of others in your post too James. The cadence, the moments of suspension...hardly your regular venacular. Just see with your own eyes and think with your own mind for a change - I remember asking you to do that in response to video 3 and here we are on session 14.
		
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to be fair, that's basic dressage terminology in France. I had to stop talking like that when I moved to the UK as I am hardly a high level anything rider! ... Easy to pick up words when you hear them used in common parlance.


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## Armas (28 July 2013)

Please please please read my threads before posting incorrect information. My horse does not have a damaged hock.


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

Apols for typos in previous posts. James I can't lie about what I see - it's just not true that I am stirring or always responding negatively. At least three times I have recognised a positive change or softening or new way with the trainer. Apologies that I can't see through your eyes but I rather prefer my own as they view with no agenda or defensive stance. If it's easier for you to dismiss this as stirring or a personal attack then go ahead.


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

MissTyc, my point is that James doesn't understand what he is seeing let alone what he is talking about


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## joeanne (28 July 2013)

Armas said:



			Interestingly that is exactly what some one said about the comments on this thread on Facebook ! I do not confuse looking pretty with work. It would be very interesting for some of the critics to post a couple of videos of them ridding a collected horse to show me how its done.
		
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See you totally miss the point. He should not BE doing collected work just yet. The groundwork is not set for it. GG explains it perfectly....try reading it. The horse is tense through the neck, there is no real self carriage and as already mentioned by GG, all you are going to do is aggravate the issues he already has.


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## Armas (28 July 2013)

Interesting that you say this is French terminology, this was terminology was used by an English PRE stud owner whilst discussing my horse who lives in the UK ? Answers on a post card.


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## twiggy2 (28 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			Interesting to hear the words of others in your post too James. The cadence, the moments of suspension...hardly your regular venacular. Just see with your own eyes and think with your own mind for a change
		
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TBH Billie1007 this is a personal attack and if I was James I too would be offended


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## Armas (28 July 2013)

That is extremely rude and for the most part not true. Please forgive me if I ignore your posts from here on in.


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

Armas said:



			I just wanted to clarify a couple of points. The trainers adaptation is 99.9% her own doing, I make the odd suggestion such as removing the flash which she agreed was not necessary.
We have discussed the issues she rides she does what she thinks is necessary if I don't agree with some thing. She has a good understanding of Armas and his issues and is carrying out the work as she see fits. We may not agree with her methods or the structure how ever no trainer is the same and we all do things in different ways.
She is working on maintaining contact no matter where Armas puts his head BTV or up the contact is kept and evasion is not allowed. 
The last two sessions have been indoors as the main arena was to wet. The small arena is not ideal hence she changed the work.
The collection will help with engagement. Armas tends to 'run' rather than trot we are working to changing that. The difference lies in the moment of suspension. A balanced/cadenced trot has a long moment of suspension (think of Passage as the ultimate in cadence ) and comes from a trot where the hind legs step under and lift the shoulders. All trot work should be towards that aim.

I agree it's not perfect, but he is enjoying the challenge I see that, and is working in a far better frame (of body and mind) I see improvement, and am pleased with how he's progressing.Rome wasn't built in a day, or that there is good tension as well as bad tension. Top athletes wouldn't get anywhere if they didn't use their muscles with a degree of tension, neither would horses. This is not a horse being asked to bumble along on a loose rein, the work he is doing is challenging him physically
		
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I understand all of that and as you know, I have praised this trainer heavily where I have felt she has deserved it. Good to know that the changes are coming from her, thank you for that.

What you mention about cadence...the moment of suspension is extremely important. As you quite rightly say, the moment of suspension come from engagement, but I just don't see much of it. I totally agree, his overall frame is much much better...I do think he likes to be challenged as well, but I just think it was carried on for to long. Like I said, I don't even think his tucking BTV in this session is him evading anything, he looks much happier in the contact and the tucking appears to stem from his needing a quick break. But...if the hind end is engaged, the front will lift and become light. Armas is not light up front in the majority of the collected work. He was at the start of it, hence my comments on how beneficial I feel it would be to limit the amount of collected steps to just maybe 5 minutes towards the end of the session. The further along the session goes with the collected questions, the heavier the shoulders and chest become...what may be seen as cadence behind can be quickly ruled out by looking at the quality of the overall picture. 

I wouldn't want to see him bumble along on a loose rein James...of course there is a certain amount of tension in training a horse new things, but that tension is normally mental tension that has a physical outlet...not physical tension of its own accord. Armas doesn't look mentally bothered by the work to be honest...but he is looking tense in his back and neck towards the end of the session and it is down purely to the fact that he just doesn't yet have the strength to support this kind of work. 

Your goals when looking for a trainer were to build up his strength and top line and get him engaging himself behind. It's not a quick process. Rome wasn't built in a day is exactly it...so if you understand that, you can't expect to do work that requires muscles that don't grow overnight either. He's fit enough for it, but not strong enough for it...hope that makes sense. 

Iberian horses are more capable of producing this more advanced sooner than warmbloods in my experience, but it is still only after a period of time, usually a good year or two of solid foundation work where the overall strength of the horse is built up sufficiently.

I'm not attacking the trainer...as you know, I view each video on its own merits. I comment on what I see, not what I want to see or think or expect to see, but what is in front of me. Because of that, one day I love it, another day...not so much. This is just a not so much day. 

The basic rule of training IMO is that you keep it all harmonious. You strive to have a partnership where you work together and where the horse understands and enjoys the horse. Without exception to date, I have found that this is better achieved when new lessons are introduced gradually, repeating until the basics are understood, then moving on. 

Personally, I use a method that I have talked about on this forum before. It is a 10 point method. This is something I thought about as a child when I first started breaking and training youngsters. It is based on never asking a horse for a value of more than 10 in any schooling session. 

For a young horse just established in walk, trot and canter...the basic paces would have a value of zero. But...anything other than basic paces around the school or on a 20m circle would be a question for a baby horse, therefore a value would be added. So...serpentines where changing direction and bend are added would have a value of 3-4 depending on the horse as it's a  lot for a young horse to cope with...tighter turns, keeping correct through the spine, maintaining bend, straightening up across the centre line etc...it's work, so has a high value. For a horse that is a few years into training and can do serpentines blindfold...they would have a zero value. So...baby horse would be warmed up, asked for a few serpentines until it got it right and as soon as it understood and got it right, it would be allowed to relax by going back to a zero value exercise. Then, it might be asked to improve transitions. Difficult for a baby horse lacking balance and muscle, so they have a higher value when trying to make improvements...again value 3-4. So in one session, I can ask for serpentines and then better transitions and that only leaves me a couple of points. They would be in the form of teaching a square halt. Not physically demanding, but new, so a value of 2 points. 

In a horse established in all basic work, all that basic work would have a zero value. Recently added work that a horse understood but was not yet established in would carry a low value and new work like changed, medium or extended paces or collection etc would carry a high value. The recently learned work would carry a low value of 1-2, the new work would carry a higher value of 3-6 depending on the demands and the horse. If you never go over 10, you never overface the horse. 

I hope that makes sense. I have explained it much better in the past. I think most people do it naturally to be honest. 

Transfer that logic onto this session with Armas and he is given lots of zero value work. But...the high value work is taken well past the point of understanding and into the point where it is asked for so many time, the value has shot up to about 40. I genuinely believe that if the first 5-6 times he had shown lovely baby steps, he was rewarded and then moved on to something low value...you would see massive improvements in the next session. When they get it right and we reward straight away, they enjoy it and look forward to doing it again. When we ask too much, we can make them sour to it and they can start to resent it.

Hope it makes sense.


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## twiggy2 (28 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			MissTyc, my point is that James doesn't understand what he is seeing let alone what he is talking about 

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really? so is this, for goodness sake back off-it is not your horse and you are being offensive and rude


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

Armas said:



			Interestingly that is exactly what some one said about the comments on this thread on Facebook ! I do not confuse looking pretty with work. It would be very interesting for some of the critics to post a couple of videos of them ridding a collected horse to show me how its done.
		
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Love it when you do this. Throw your toys out and say 'right you do it then'. We aren't criticising YOUR ability to ride James! I ride a common cob, but that does not stop me being able to have a fairly reasoned response here. Are you determined to always make it so childish - as if your 'comeback' is any kind of defence!?


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			really? so is this, for goodness sake back off-it is not your horse and you are being offensive and rude
		
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At what point did I suggest it was my horse? I'm not sure I understand your point. Plenty of others have suggested that James sould listen to others, open is eyes, wondered if he is sleeping with the trainer, is determined to break his horse...and I'm offensive and rude?


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

Oh dear. Personal attack! I had better bow out then... Oh erm, I forgot it was an open forum. I haven't attacked anyone. Since when has disagreeing and suggesting that someone doesn't know quite what they are saying an 'attack'?


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

James - so you don't view with your own eyes nor think with your own brain, now what you type here is straight off someone else's keyboard. Much of what you have typed here today has come straight off your facebook page and copied almost verbatim. THIS is why I don't think you know what you are seeing or saying!

Ok. Ok so now I seem like a stalker, but -I'm not happy to be the bad guy here (as per) when I have good reason to feel what I do.


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

Discussing terminology is irrelevant. They are globally recognised terms and terms I have heard used by the best trainers and bog standard riders alike from all over the world. 

Billie, I don't think James is throwing his toys out of the pram. Writing a few positive posts doesn't change the fact that you find it quite easy to be really quite personal at times. Some of your comments are just plain rude, so don't be surprised when they don't get a great response. Some of your points are very valid...but the delivery means they are often lost :smile3:
In respect of why I post in such detail...

I love horses, I love learning about them and I have gained a great deal from these Armas threads. 
James loves his horse...that is clear, so as long as he is striving to improve, I will invest my time giving my opinions. They may not always be right, they may not always be constructive or useful....but the great thing about this forum is that you can get such a variety of responses and from that can come some great ideas and solutions to problems. 

If James still keeps putting the effort in, so will I. This is a beautiful horse and the task ahead of it is a big one....but he is getting there and this trainer is helping in the most part. I won't pull my punches when I think things aren't great, hence todays comments. I will also always give praise where it is due. 

I think we are all learning more about horses from these threads and that can NEVER be a bad thing :smile3:


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

I agree GG, I don't come across well on here. James gets info from a 'wise one' before commenting on here in response to anyone. It's just weird and then I get accused of being rude and offensive when I say he isn't even forming his own view.


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## dunkley (28 July 2013)

J - I have followed Armas' story since he arrived on the transporter in all that snow.  I'm sure many on here have, and remember your absolute excitement at having such a stunning horse to ride in such beautiful surroundings.  I have seen your posts turn unpleasant and nasty, and lots of different views and observations.  Out of them all, GG really, really seems to understand what is, or is not, (as the case may be) happening.  I am not going to make any comments whatsoever on how Armas is progressing, or whether the trainer is improving or ruining him.  What I will ask is 'Do you remember _why_ you bought him?'  Did you buy him to enjoy, yourself, and ride in superb surroundings?  Pleasure rides, and local 'fun' things?  Or did you buy him to watch other people ride and compete him?  If it was for _you_ - and I think it was, originally - of course a well-schooled, responsive, obedient horse is more of a pleasure to ride than an ar*e.  Walk, trot, canter - upwards and downwards transitions - ability to leg yield round parked vehicles - rein back/turn on the forehand for gates.  Not passage/piaffe, or any other 'classical' movements.  It is only my very personal opinion, but I think you should have some simple, unpressured time doing what you first intended.  If Armas continues to be 'developed' into a 'top dressage horse', unless you develop accordingly into a 'top dressage rider', you may find he is schooled far beyond you, and you won't be able to enjoy any of the things you wanted to do.  The buttons will be so very precise, unless _you_ can press them perfectly, he won't understand a thing you say, and you will have lost _your  _ horse.  Armas won't care that he isn't 'fulfilling his potential' (I hate that phrase  ).  Armas will look stunning, even if his outline isn't perfect, and his head isn't in precisely the 'right' place.  The best video I have seen recently was of the young girl riding him, and having fun together, which is what I thought you wanted to do yourself.  FWIW, I think Armas, and you, would benefit greatly from a complete break from the school, and training, and developing.  Go and have some fun, and relax, the pair of you.  It certainly won't do any harm, and may well be the making of you both.


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## Wheels (28 July 2013)

Great post from dunkley


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## Armas (28 July 2013)

dunkley said:



			J - I have followed Armas' story since he arrived on the transporter in all that snow.  I'm sure many on here have, and remember your absolute excitement at having such a stunning horse to ride is such beautiful surroundings.  I have seen your posts turn unpleasant and nasty, and lots of different views and observations.  Out of them all, GG really, really seems to understand what is, or is not, (as the case may be) happening.  I am not going to make any comments whatsoever on how Armas is progressing, or whether the trainer is improving or ruining him.  What I will ask is 'Do you remember _why_ you bought him?'  Did you buy him to enjoy, yourself, and ride in superb surroundings?  Pleasure rides, and local 'fun' things?  Or did you buy him to watch other people ride and compete him?  If it was for _you_ - and I think it was, originally - of course a well-schooled, responsive, obedient horse is more of a pleasure to ride than an ar*e.  Walk, trot, canter - upwards and downwards transitions - ability to leg yield round parked vehicles - rein back/turn on the forehand for gates.  Not passage/piaffe, or any other 'classical' movements.  It is only my very personal opinion, but I think you should have some simple, unpressured time doing what you first intended.  If Armas continues to be 'developed' into a 'top dressage horse', unless you develop accordingly into a 'top dressage rider', you may find he is schooled far beyond you, and you won't be able to enjoy any of the things you wanted to do.  The buttons will be so very precise, unless _you_ can press them perfectly, he won't understand a thing you say, and you will have lost _your  _ horse.  Armas won't care that he isn't 'fulfilling his potential' (I hate that phrase  ).  Armas will look stunning, even if his outline isn't perfect, and his head isn't in precisely the 'right' place.  The best video I have seen recently was of the young girl riding him, and having fun together, which is what I thought you wanted to do yourself.  FWIW, I think Armas, and you, would benefit greatly from a complete break from the school, and training, and developing.  Go and have some fun, and relax, the pair of you.  It certainly won't do any harm, and may well be the making of you both.  

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I love my horse and I enjoy the schooling as much as I enjoy the ridding. Today for example was an organised ride 20 other horses and 26km covered. lots of walking trotting and flat out galloping and generally having fun. Boy do we have fun such as the recent trip to the sea side for 4 days !
Its not just Armas education but mine too the trainer is working on corrective training and improvement, once we have achieved certain goals I will be partaking in the schooling me in the saddle the trainer bellowing at me.
I am indenting to compete him however I equally get as much joy from watching him compete. I wanted to take the time to thank you for your post as it comes across as interested and trying to help rather than attack.


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## Blythe Spirit (28 July 2013)

i find these videos so interesting - i could happily watch people ride for hours on end. IMO this session is at its best at about 14 to 15 mins into it. the rider has discovered a way to ask the horse to come out from BTV (I think BTV is actually a very hard problem to fix) and the horse understands that signal now. also good i think is that the rider is willing to sacrifice apparent 'prettiness' and to break that to get something better. technically i dont think she is a bad rider (though i have a preference for a more upright less driving seat - there are man varying styles of riding which are effective done well) BUT I don't think she has a good feel for when to push, when to reward and when to stop. Sometimes i think she gets this right - eg she often waited until the horse was more correct before making a downward transition. but sometimes i think she gets it very wrong and pushes for something new when the horse is still struggling with the last things. I think GG's no more than 10 theory is interesting (thanks for sharing) i was wondering if i do that myself and I hope i do. Though I am not really that qualified to comment as my current horse is a 15hh coloured who came from the gypsies and who would not know a dickybird about collection - working prelim / novice but will go further in time. I never understand and often admire how professionals can get results so fast - whilst I have trained 4 horses, each to a level I was pleased with, it has always taken me years not weeks or months. i guess that is partly the difference between professionals and keen amateurs riding as a hobby after work! keep posting the vids and comments its all fascinating


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

Deleted


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## Auslander (28 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			Discussing terminology is irrelevant. They are globally recognised terms and terms I have heard used by the best trainers and bog standard riders alike from all over the world. 

Billie, I don't think James is throwing his toys out of the pram. Writing a few positive posts doesn't change the fact that you find it quite easy to be really quite personal at times. Some of your comments are just plain rude, so don't be surprised when they don't get a great response. Some of your points are very valid...but the delivery means they are often lost :smile3:
In respect of why I post in such detail...

I love horses, I love learning about them and I have gained a great deal from these Armas threads. 
James loves his horse...that is clear, so as long as he is striving to improve, I will invest my time giving my opinions. They may not always be right, they may not always be constructive or useful....but the great thing about this forum is that you can get such a variety of responses and from that can come some great ideas and solutions to problems. 

If James still keeps putting the effort in, so will I. This is a beautiful horse and the task ahead of it is a big one....but he is getting there and this trainer is helping in the most part. I won't pull my punches when I think things aren't great, hence todays comments. I will also always give praise where it is due. 

I think we are all learning more about horses from these threads and that can NEVER be a bad thing :smile3:
		
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Spot on! I've stopped commenting on these posts, but I do speak to James, and what shines through to me is his love for, and dedication to his horse. He finds the process of watching Armas' training fascinating, and has learned and developed himself as a result. I also admire his fortitude in dealing with the negativity he experiences on virtually every thread he posts. I wouldn't cope with having my riding or training slated constantly (although it would probably be justified!) 
The way this horse is trained may not be to everyone's taste, but the way others ride their horses may not be to his.  I support James purely because he genuinely wants to learn and improve himself and his horse. He has repeatedly stated that he will change trainers if he doesn't feel his current choice is doing the job, but he is giving her a chance, and I, for one, think she is getting there. This is not a baby, he's a mature, fit animal, and his strength/ability to perform the more advanced movements is coming along. It may not be pretty yet, but he is starting to offer her what she's asking for - and that's progress.There are some very nice moments in this video - just moments at this point, but consider how he was going a few weeks ago, and I think it IS possible to see that they are getting there.


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## milliepops (28 July 2013)

Wow. I really hope the trainer is oblivious to her trial by HHO because she's damned either way really. If she changes, she's damned. If she doesn't change, she's damned.  I really think it's brutally unfair of some posters to condemn so wholeheartedly when it's very difficult to really tell what is happening for certain from a few videos and short comments from the trainer.




Billie1007 said:



			I agree GG, I don't come across well on here. James gets info from a 'wise one' before commenting on here in response to anyone. It's just weird and then I get accused of being rude and offensive when I say he isn't even forming his own view.
		
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Isn't this how any of us form our own views though? we all have to learn from someone, whether we take on board their views in total or pick and choose, or disregard them completely?  I try and learn something from everyone I speak to, watch and am taught by, even if it's just 'I don't agree'.  Sometimes that means *one* begins to understand a new concept or aspect of training and it's not wrong IMO to then use the correct word to describe that! :biggrin3:

Anyway. Back to the actual thread - GG, I agree with you about the points system and that's also how I work (although have to say it's not as conscious as that!!) I said earlier that I would not personally have pushed the 'collection' (back to that in a sec) for as long BUT if he felt like he was on the verge of understanding a question - it's a possibility - then there is some validity in doing that.

As for the 'collection' & passagey steps... well, I think it's *just* possible that there is a language/translation issue here and maybe we aren't getting the full story in the brief comments from her. From her own discussion at the end I thought it sounded like she wasn't aiming for passage itself - I don't think she's stupid to the point of not being aware that the horse is not ready to actually passage.  I saw the collected steps as more akin to an extended half halt. To the point where the horse waited and accepted the aid, and was then allowed forward again. 

From the video of her riding the bay wb (?) in a competition that was on a very early thread, I think this shows that she knows compressing the trot is not the way to create collection. That horse's collected trot was more forward than anything Armas has offered to date.

I will enter a health warning to this post at this point -again, I'm not defending her without question and I think the next session will be telling :wink3: BUT I do think the attack backlash is to a great extent unjustified.


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## Auslander (28 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			What does the 'wise one' think of the thread's recent posts James? Or are you going to ignore the fact that I had evidence to back up my point about you not thinking for yourself? I have no idea what drives me to behave like this on your threads! ARRRrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhh!
		
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Who is this "wise one" you refer to Billie?


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

Oh Hi Aus  funny you should ask


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## milliepops (28 July 2013)

Auslander said:



			what shines through to me is his love for, and dedication to his horse. He finds the process of watching Armas' training fascinating, and has learned and developed himself as a result. I also admire his fortitude in dealing with the negativity he experiences on virtually every thread he posts. I wouldn't cope with having my riding or training slated constantly
		
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^^this :biggrin3:

I think what's been really fascinating to me, and what keeps drawing me back time and again is that it's very much a warts & all view of a horse's progress. 

It would have been easier to edit out the ugly bits and pretend that training a horse is all a beautifully easy process with no difficult sections. But what could any of us hope to learn from that? Only, perhaps, that we shouldn't be trying to ride our own horses if we can't also have 100% successful sessions every time we ride


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## Spring Feather (28 July 2013)

Auslander said:



			Who is this "wise one" you refer to Billie?
		
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Gill perhaps?


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## Auslander (28 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			Oh Hi Aus  funny you should ask 

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I don't really appreciate being made to sound like James' puppetmaster thanks. So what if he asks for advice/opinions - takes them on board and then adopts/adapt them to develop his own understanding. That's how I developed my own way of doing things, and as a teacher, I'm surprised you attach such negativity to someone who embraces opportunities to learn from people who have a little more experience than him.


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

Yes it is unjustified Milliepops! 

I was very careful to not say passage or piaffe. I simply used the term collected steps because that is all I see that the trainer has asked for. I haven't listened to the comments as we have friends staying for the week (although this is a great escape...lol) BUT...I agree and I don't think she is actually trying for either piaffe or passage. Just the beginnings of collection. 

She isn't doing it through force either which is what most have criticised her for. My only issue has been that I personally don't feel that the tension was good for Armas towards the end. 

I also agree that when you know that the breakthrough is just around the corner, it is worth continuing to get there. The only thing about that is, I think if it is taking too long, it is worth considering that there is a reason it is not being fully understood yet, so take a step back and try another approach kind of thing. 

I think, yet again, a lot of assumptions have been made. Assumptions never achieve anything of any value.


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

My point is that I suggested James wasn't thinking for himself or talking for himself and I was lambasted. Then I spot a post that is someone else's words almost verbatim wich kind of proved my point. Of COURSE we learn from others and yes I am well aware of how that works, but for weeks I have been suggesting that James should find his own opinion. Something he still finds it difficult to do! To naively suggest that I don't understand how learning works is just silly. Yes we learn from others, but my very specific point was that James wasn't forming his own ideas and then it was nicely demonstrated.
The first part of your post is moot Aus, because I have never suggested he shouldn't learn from others, take their view and knowledge...


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## DabDab (28 July 2013)

milliepops said:



			As for the 'collection' & passagey steps... well, I think it's *just* possible that there is a language/translation issue here and maybe we aren't getting the full story in the brief comments from her. From her own discussion at the end I thought it sounded like she wasn't aiming for passage itself - I don't think she's stupid to the point of not being aware that the horse is not ready to actually passage.  I saw the collected steps as more akin to an extended half halt. To the point where the horse waited and accepted the aid, and was then allowed forward again.
		
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My thoughts too - I don't think she is actually after high school collection. I think she is aiming to make the movement smaller while increasing leg and hand aids in an effort to make him more accepting of them. However, I only watched the first 10 mins of the video when first posted though so I will watch the rest now...


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## milliepops (28 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			Then I spot a post that is someone else's words almost verbatim wich kind of proved my point.
		
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Again I think this is a little unfair, it's not an exam so plagiarism isn't really a problem :wink3: Very often we see posts on here that are copied from another website, or transcribed from what a trainer has told someone. Doesn't make it less valid as the poster's own opinion just because it was someone else's words


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

Why is this becoming about James? These threads are about a horse and his journey. A journey which even with the best rider in the world that we all think is wonderful would not be without its ups and downs and moments of unpleasantness. 

James using words he has read from someone else is totally irrelevant. He may think the exact same thing...yet see it written in a way that is more concise or easily understood, so use those words instead of his own. I just don't see that it is constructive or will be in any way beneficial to the horse for this kind of chat to continue.


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## Auslander (28 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			My point is that I suggested James wasn't thinking for himself or talking for himself and I was lambasted. Then I spot a post that is someone else's words almost verbatim wich kind of proved my point. Of COURSE we learn from others and yes I am well aware of how that works, but for weeks I have been suggesting that James should find his own opinion. Something he still finds it difficult to do! To naively suggest that I don't understand how learning works is just silly. Yes we learn from others, but my very specific point was that James wasn't forming his own ideas and then it was nicely demonstrated.
		
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But he is not, and has never professed to be particularly experienced, and he is taking on what others (not just me) say, and developing his own opinions from watching the videos, and relating what others have told him to what he sees. He cannot be expected, at his level, to be able to form opinions completely independently. He's got to follow the path, pick the flowers, and kick the poo out of the way - I've been up and down that path a fair few times, and only now am I happy to form my own opinions without external assistance, stick by them if someone tells me I'm wrong, and admit to myself when I am actually wrong.


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## doriangrey (28 July 2013)

What I'd like to see is all you 'armchair enthusiasts' sit on Armas.  I have no idea what's going on (apart from the fact that I would shoot all the noisy sparrows in the vids)!  OP, you must be a total masochist!  If any one of you aren't sat on that horse your input is largely irrelevant.  Yes - I understand the video is out there for scrutiny - but holy crap - apart from the fact that they are putting themselves out there, do you think you could do better?  Well you can't because you aren't sat on Armas.  So .. for all the experts out there, why don't you offer your services for Armas' owner?  Who knows, you might be able to earn some pocket money


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## Armas (28 July 2013)

In regards to the passage. That was not the aim for the session its the long term aim as I stated before. If you listen to the audio of the video there is a point that the trainer states that she is not stopping the session in fact she has lengthened it as she feels that Armas is starting to understand what she wants and she wants to work with that.
The trainer does not clock watch and works as short or as long as she thinks is needed.
She wants collection that is her aim at this point and that is exactly what Armas started to understand. OMG I have just had thought for my self the world must be coming to an end !


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## milliepops (28 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			I also agree that when you know that the breakthrough is just around the corner, it is worth continuing to get there. The only thing about that is, I think if it is taking too long, it is worth considering that there is a reason it is not being fully understood yet, so take a step back and try another approach kind of thing.
		
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Oh yes, definitely. I agree.  However, there have been a few vids in the past where she's pushed harder or further than I would have been comfortable with myself, and the next day he has come out with something significantly improved. 
That's the thing that is just in the back of my mind when I find myself thinking it's gone on long enough.  I suppose I'm optimistic about her judgement/feel of the feedback from the horse.  

And kind of in the same vein as my warts & all comment - and your fair judgements of her good and bad days - we can, all of us I'm sure, look back at something one day and think 'that was a mistake'. I won't condemn her for making a mistake... IF the next day's work is better again


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## milliepops (28 July 2013)

Auslander said:



			He's got to follow the path, pick the flowers, and kick the **** out of the way
		
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That is possibly the best line in the whole thread! :biggrin3:


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## Armas (28 July 2013)

doriangrey said:



			What I'd like to see is all you 'armchair enthusiasts' sit on Armas.  I have no idea what's going on (apart from the fact that I would shoot all the noisy sparrows in the vids)!  OP, you must be a total masochist!  If any one of you aren't sat on that horse your input is largely irrelevant.  Yes - I understand the video is out there for scrutiny - but holy crap - apart from the fact that they are putting themselves out there, do you think you could do better?  Well you can't because you aren't sat on Armas.  So .. for all the experts out there, why don't you offer your services for Armas' owner?  Who knows, you might be able to earn some pocket money 

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Sorry but that had me rolling around on the floor in fights of laughter ! I will try to have words with the birds to pipe down !


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## doriangrey (28 July 2013)

Seriously - it would **** me off, never mind Armas


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## milliepops (28 July 2013)

Armas said:



			I will try to have words with the birds to pipe down !
		
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Please do, I think my neighbours were probably hearing them through the walls this afternoon


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

I'm not right for everyone, it's my opinion. Can't be doing with the BS to be honest (how mature of me). It seems that as I can't use a thousand words when ten would do then I don't fit on these threads. IMO, James is allowing some mistakes to be made with Armas, some aren't fair on him. I'm not interested in whether anyone agrees, or whether it makes one iota of a difference, or if poor owner is offended that anyone might speak with any force (aka personal attack) some of this IS personal because he IS the owner. Armas isn't in charge of the process - James is. I'm such a knob sometimes, I know that, but at least I have an opinion that is my own.


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## Auslander (28 July 2013)

milliepops said:



			That is possibly the best line in the whole thread! :biggrin3:
		
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I must confess to being quite proud of it!


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

doriangrey said:



			What I'd like to see is all you 'armchair enthusiasts' sit on Armas.  I have no idea what's going on (apart from the fact that I would shoot all the noisy sparrows in the vids)!  OP, you must be a total masochist!  If any one of you aren't sat on that horse your input is largely irrelevant.  Yes - I understand the video is out there for scrutiny - but holy crap - apart from the fact that they are putting themselves out there, do you think you could do better?  Well you can't because you aren't sat on Armas.  So .. for all the experts out there, why don't you offer your services for Armas' owner?  Who knows, you might be able to earn some pocket money 

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I have offered to go over at the end of the summer if James wants me to. But...he has to and I support him in giving this trainer a chance. I won't speak for others, but I post because James has asked me to, so I oblige. Have defended this trainer many times and added my own caveats many times that we are not on the horse getting the feedback for ourselves. Can still share opinions when they are asked for though, doesn't mean we are experts or even think we are...this trainer competes nationally...I don't :smile3:



Armas said:



			In regards to the passage. That was not the aim for the session its the long term aim as I stated before. If you listen to the audio of the video there is a point that the trainer states that she is not stopping the session in fact she has lengthened it as she feels that Armas is starting to understand what she wants and she wants to work with that.
The trainer does not clock watch and works as short or as long as she thinks is needed.
She wants collection that is her aim at this point and that is exactly what Armas started to understand. OMG I have just had thought for my self the world must be coming to an end !
		
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Haha, clockwatching is the devils game when working with any animal so I personally like that she doesn't have a set time frame as I have said before. Like I said, I don't think he looked to be stressed out by any of the work. The only think I didn't like was the increasing tension in the neck back but...sometimes improvement comes at a cost. It's never easy!



milliepops said:



			Oh yes, definitely. I agree.  However, there have been a few vids in the past where she's pushed harder or further than I would have been comfortable with myself, and the next day he has come out with something significantly improved. 
That's the thing that is just in the back of my mind when I find myself thinking it's gone on long enough.  I suppose I'm optimistic about her judgement/feel of the feedback from the horse.  

And kind of in the same vein as my warts & all comment - and your fair judgements of her good and bad days - we can, all of us I'm sure, look back at something one day and think 'that was a mistake'. I won't condemn her for making a mistake... IF the next day's work is better again 

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Nope....I think a few people who have just outright condemned have had to admit they may have been a little harsh when seeing improvements in further videos. It's the nature of the beast.


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

I don't know why the 'armchair enthusiasts' keeps being trotted out. You can have an opinion on what you see whether you have attempted the process yourself. I couldn't ride Armas for toffee, but it doesn't mean I can't see what's in front of me.


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			I'm not right for everyone, it's my opinion. Can't be doing with the BS to be honest (how mature of me). It seems that as I can't use a thousand words when ten would do then I don't fit on these threads. I'm prepared to say that James is allowing some mistakes to be made. I'm not interested in whether anyone agrees, or whether it makes one iota of a difference, or if poor owner is offended that anyone might speak with any force (aka personal attack) some of this IS personal because he IS the owner. Armas isn't in charge of the process - James is. I'm such a knob sometimes, I know that, but at least I have an opinion that is my own.
		
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I'm terrible for long posts...I just hate the idea of saying something quickly and not being understood.


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## Auslander (28 July 2013)

doriangrey said:



			What I'd like to see is all you 'armchair enthusiasts' sit on Armas.  I have no idea what's going on (apart from the fact that I would shoot all the noisy sparrows in the vids)!  OP, you must be a total masochist!  If any one of you aren't sat on that horse your input is largely irrelevant.  Yes - I understand the video is out there for scrutiny - but holy crap - apart from the fact that they are putting themselves out there, do you think you could do better?  Well you can't because you aren't sat on Armas.  So .. for all the experts out there, why don't you offer your services for Armas' owner?  Who knows, you might be able to earn some pocket money 

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I would - but I would squash the poor sod flat! There's a reason my horse is 17.2hh and built like a brick outhouse!


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## Auslander (28 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			I don't know why the 'armchair enthusiasts' keeps being trotted out. You can have an opinion on what you see whether you have attempted the process yourself. I couldn't ride Armas for toffee, but it doesn't mean I can't see what's in front of me.
		
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Thing is - Yes, everyone has the right to comment on what they see in front of them, but when its horses, it's very rarely as simple as that. If I were to comment on what I see in the vids, I'd probably say much the same as you, but if you've been there and done it, and ridden horse like that, it gives you an extra insight, allowing you to look beyond what is immediately evident, work out what the trainer is doing, and how the horse is responding, and with all due respect, those who haven't done it, can't view it in the same way. It's like driving very competently all your adult life, then going out and telling someone how to drive round a Formula one track. Same but different.


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## Auslander (28 July 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			Are you enjoying lots of ladies arguing about you James ?
I do wonder why you continue to post vids knowing the outcry they entail..........
Some sort of fetish maybe ?
		
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Grow up!


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## milliepops (28 July 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			But why does he do it ?.....time after time ?
		
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Maybe because a lot of us enjoy the debate and discussions that follow when the arguments die down. I know I've asked that he continue, on more than one occasion.


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## doriangrey (28 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			I have offered to go over at the end of the summer if James wants me to. But...he has to and I support him in giving this trainer a chance. I won't speak for others, but I post because James has asked me to, so I oblige. Have defended this trainer many times and added my own caveats many times that we are not on the horse getting the feedback for ourselves. Can still share opinions when they are asked for though, doesn't mean we are experts or even think we are...this trainer competes nationally...I don't :smile3:



Haha, clockwatching is the devils game when working with any animal so I personally like that she doesn't have a set time frame as I have said before. Like I said, I don't think he looked to be stressed out by any of the work. The only think I didn't like was the increasing tension in the neck back but...sometimes improvement comes at a cost. It's never easy!



Nope....I think a few people who have just outright condemned have had to admit they may have been a little harsh when seeing improvements in further videos. It's the nature of the beast.
		
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Sorry _GG_ that was not aimed at you as you have been constructive and polite always  (along with others and they'll know who they are).  It's just some other comments that are far from polite and even rude.  It's hard because I think these videos are snapshots and seriously that horse is living a life some only even dream of.  Billie1007, if you admit you couldn't ride 'Armas for toffee' than maybe you shouldn't be commenting on his going?  How do you know what is in front of you if you don't know the process about how it might be getting him there?


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## Auslander (28 July 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			But why does he do it ?.....time after time ?
		
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Because he gets a fair amount of really useful input into the threads - stuff he can take away and learn from. The flowers I referred to earlier. 
He's also a photoho...


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## Forest Fox (28 July 2013)

Auslander said:



			Because he gets a fair amount of really useful input into the threads - stuff he can take away and learn from. The flowers I referred to earlier. 
He's also a photoho...
		
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What is a photoho?


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## Auslander (28 July 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			What is a photoho?
		
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Someone who likes posting photos/videos. I amended the spelling and went a bit American to avoid getting my wrist slapped


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## Auslander (28 July 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			Thanks Auslander !!!
That explains it all !
		
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Sorry - not one of my more coherent posts!


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

doriangrey said:



			Sorry _GG_ that was not aimed at you as you have been constructive and polite always  (along with others and they'll know who they are).  It's just some other comments that are far from polite and even rude.  It's hard because I think these videos are snapshots and seriously that horse is living a life some only even dream of.  Billie1007, if you admit you couldn't ride 'Armas for toffee' than maybe you shouldn't be commenting on his going?  How do you know what is in front of you if you don't know the process about how it might be getting him there?
		
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DG - are you serious? That's a really silly idea. I have eyes that see and eyes that read. Eyes that can compare last week to this, eyes that can see a lame horse when one is presented despite me having very little hands on experience of lameness. I have never had a laminitic, but feel that I know enough to advise someone on the initial treatment. I don't jump, but I'm able to watch my fellow livery and tell her when she's not straight or when she needs to give him the rein and allow him to do it himself... I don't think your argument is valid.


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			But why does he do it ?.....time after time ?
		
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I have far more respect for someone who is willing to learn despite criticism and abuse by being open and honest than someone who hides behind a veil of anonymity. 

this forum is made up of many people who have little or no experience of what goes into training a horse to this degree. What is usually seen is the end product which gives an unattainable dream. Instead, James is showing that it isn't easy, nothing comes without mistakes or setbacks. This, IMO makes it much easier for others to see that actually, they are doing pretty well, that well schooled horses aren't made overnight and that there is hope for every horse and rider. 



doriangrey said:



			Sorry _GG_ that was not aimed at you as you have been constructive and polite always  (along with others and they'll know who they are).  It's just some other comments that are far from polite and even rude.  It's hard because I think these videos are snapshots and seriously that horse is living a life some only even dream of.  Billie1007, if you admit you couldn't ride 'Armas for toffee' than maybe you shouldn't be commenting on his going?  How do you know what is in front of you if you don't know the process about how it might be getting him there?
		
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I am acutely aware that some of my posts have been really long so I don't want to come across as voicing opinions without being able to back it up....so I kind of knew you weren't getting at me, but wanted to make the point anyway for the benefit of all if that makes sense. 

To be fair...I don't even think I am making sense to myself anymore :wink3:


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## angelish (28 July 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			Are you enjoying lots of ladies arguing about you James ?
I do wonder why you continue to post vids knowing the outcry they entail..........
Some sort of fetish maybe ?
		
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because its interesting  
it has been very interesting to watch the videos and read the comments , i appreciate the fact that the op is posting "warts an all" videos as its never a smooth journey training any horse 
there are also many different approaches to train a horse like this and it is interesting to see how another trainer would go about it , it might be different to how some people may do it but it isn't always wrong , just different 

as for the heated debates about the op , am i missing something  i don't really see the need for the personal attacks on here 

as for the horse , i have missed a few videos but he is improving in his frame although there is more tension this time maybe because he is learning something new , will be interesting to see how he comes out in his next session 
he is lovely and is always trying so hard to please


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			Ladies , ladies .....
He is loving all this !!!
		
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He's not the only one is he? :rolleyes3:


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## Auslander (28 July 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			Ladies , ladies .....
He is loving all this !!!
		
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Are you his partner? As far as I know, no-one else is in the room with him, watching his reactions to these posts


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## Marydoll (28 July 2013)

dunkley said:



			J - I have followed Armas' story since he arrived on the transporter in all that snow.  I'm sure many on here have, and remember your absolute excitement at having such a stunning horse to ride in such beautiful surroundings.  I have seen your posts turn unpleasant and nasty, and lots of different views and observations.  Out of them all, GG really, really seems to understand what is, or is not, (as the case may be) happening.  I am not going to make any comments whatsoever on how Armas is progressing, or whether the trainer is improving or ruining him.  What I will ask is 'Do you remember _why_ you bought him?'  Did you buy him to enjoy, yourself, and ride in superb surroundings?  Pleasure rides, and local 'fun' things?  Or did you buy him to watch other people ride and compete him?  If it was for _you_ - and I think it was, originally - of course a well-schooled, responsive, obedient horse is more of a pleasure to ride than an ar*e.  Walk, trot, canter - upwards and downwards transitions - ability to leg yield round parked vehicles - rein back/turn on the forehand for gates.  Not passage/piaffe, or any other 'classical' movements.  It is only my very personal opinion, but I think you should have some simple, unpressured time doing what you first intended.  If Armas continues to be 'developed' into a 'top dressage horse', unless you develop accordingly into a 'top dressage rider', you may find he is schooled far beyond you, and you won't be able to enjoy any of the things you wanted to do.  The buttons will be so very precise, unless _you_ can press them perfectly, he won't understand a thing you say, and you will have lost _your  _ horse.  Armas won't care that he isn't 'fulfilling his potential' (I hate that phrase  ).  Armas will look stunning, even if his outline isn't perfect, and his head isn't in precisely the 'right' place.  The best video I have seen recently was of the young girl riding him, and having fun together, which is what I thought you wanted to do yourself.  FWIW, I think Armas, and you, would benefit greatly from a complete break from the school, and training, and developing.  Go and have some fun, and relax, the pair of you.  It certainly won't do any harm, and may well be the making of you both.  

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Agree with you 100%


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## doriangrey (28 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			DG - are you serious? That's a really silly idea. I have eyes that see and eyes that read. Eyes that can compare last week to this, eyes that can see a lame horse when one is presented despite me having very little hands on experience of lameness. I have never had a laminitic, but feel that I know enough to advise someone on the initial treatment. I don't jump, but I'm able to watch my fellow livery and tell her when she's not straight or when she needs to give him the rein and allow him to do it himself... I don't think your argument is valid.
		
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I do think it's valid.  I don't want to argue with you but I feel you are a little irrational when it comes to Armas.  Honestly, if I wasn't jumping I wouldn't be advising someone who is unless I was an instructor or better qualified.  Tbh, unless I wasn't doing it myself then I wouldn't be offering my opinion.  Look - I believe I have some input regarding breeding, nutrition and bringing on youngstock - but having no knowledge atm on riding, showing, dressage etc I keep out of it.  I can't give an opinion of Armas because I do not feel I am anywhere near qualified.  What is your definition of qualifying yourself for what, is frankly enough a little judgemental of her training?  She rides far more than me so how can I judge - I just wonder where you come to the same conclusion.


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## Auslander (28 July 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			That's the whole point !!!!........Its generally a solitary activity !
		
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Have you been drinking. What a bizarre post.


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## Auslander (28 July 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			No !!.. just trying to keep this real
		
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What do you mean?


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			That's the whole point !!!!........Its generally a solitary activity !
		
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Totally unnecessary and I think you would benefit from remembering this is just a forum and over involvement for no constructive reason is really saying more about you than it ever will about James or anyone else!



doriangrey said:



			I do think it's valid.  I don't want to argue with you but I feel you are a little irrational when it comes to Armas.  Honestly, if I wasn't jumping I wouldn't be advising someone who is unless I was an instructor or better qualified.  Tbh, unless I wasn't doing it myself then I wouldn't be offering my opinion.  Look - I believe I have some input regarding breeding, nutrition and bringing on youngstock - but having no knowledge atm on riding, showing, dressage etc I keep out of it.  I can't give an opinion of Armas because I do not feel I am anywhere near qualified.  What is your definition of qualifying yourself for what, is frankly enough a little judgemental of her training?  She rides far more than me so how can I judge - I just wonder where you come to the same conclusion.
		
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And I won't advise on breeding or bringing on youngstock...I just get them when ready to start groundwork and take them on from there. I know who to ask when I am ready to breed from Fly


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

So DG, are we suggesting then that only an instructor could recognise a tense horse, a horse that is rushing or BTV? Or can only an instructor or higher level rider suggest a change of bit, a stronger outside rein... Blah blah blah - the list is endless. I presume the answer must be no! My response is a basic one based on MY opinion and MY experience - that experience allows me to see he is unbalanced and imo not ready for some of what she attempts. It allows me to see that he was confused in the early days when she asked too much of him. My experience allowed me to question why she braced against him in the canter. My experience has not allowed me to give any answers other than to simplify, to back up a little, to ask for less, to allow him to go forwards without asking too much else. I don't think those things are misaligned with my experience.


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			So DG, are we suggesting then that only an instructor could recognise a tense horse, a horse that is rushing or BTV. Or can only an instructor or level rider suggest a change of bit, a stronger outside rein... Blah blah blah - the list is endless. I presume the answer must be no!
		
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No, but people with more experience of something will understand better the nuances of a situation. 

You ride a cob Billie....I haven't ridden many cobs in the last 15 years. If this thread were about a cob, I would give more credence to your opinions than someone who only rode Iberians. Not because they couldn't see the obvious or even the minute details, but because your understanding through actual experience of cobs would be more beneficial and give you more perspective. You would know them better, you would be better able to understand and comment.


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## ester (28 July 2013)

I find it very interesting just to read the various comments from people whose opinion I do respect on here and it is certainly interesting to watch her training. I do have to say that I don't understand the I'd like to see those with negative comments ride this horse.. as remembering the very original videos when he went to try him etc he was quite novice himself at the time (and did get some queries over whether a PRE would therefore be right for him). Fair play to him for going ahead and clearly having fun with Armas with the group rides etc and enjoying him but I just don't get where that comment comes from. (I can also therefore understand why people perhaps question it when James is getting into discussions on the technicalities of dressage/classical riding).


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## twiggy2 (28 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			No, but people with more experience of something will understand better the nuances of a situation. 

You ride a cob Billie....I haven't ridden many cobs in the last 15 years. If this thread were about a cob, I would give more credence to your opinions than someone who only rode Iberians. Not because they couldn't see the obvious or even the minute details, but because your understanding through actual experience of cobs would be more beneficial and give you more perspective. You would know them better, you would be better able to understand and comment.
		
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you talk a lot of sense, if you would like more experience of cob crosses you are welcome to train mine and me


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			No, but people with more experience of something will understand better the nuances of a situation. 

You ride a cob Billie....I haven't ridden many cobs in the last 15 years. If this thread were about a cob, I would give more credence to your opinions than someone who only rode Iberians. Not because they couldn't see the obvious or even the minute details, but because your understanding through actual experience of cobs would be more beneficial and give you more perspective. You would know them better, you would be better able to understand and comment.
		
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But I haven't sought to comment on the nuances of the breed. I have commented on the basics of her work - the rushing, the early inability to allow release, the braced seat, the strong legs which seemed to confuse him. The charging around while he is still unbalanced, the attempted collection when he is STILL unbalanced.  This is horsemanship not 'iberianship'. Deffo just invented my own word.


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## milliepops (28 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			So DG, are we suggesting then that only an instructor could recognise a tense horse, a horse that is rushing or BTV? Or can only an instructor or higher level rider suggest a change of bit, a stronger outside rein... Blah blah blah - the list is endless. I presume the answer must be no! My response is a basic one based on MY opinion and MY experience - that experience allows me to see he is unbalanced and imo not ready for some of what she attempts. It allows me to see that he was confused in the early days when she asked too much of him. My experience allowed me to question why she braced against him in the canter. My experience has not allowed me to give any answers other than to simplify, to back up a little, to ask for less, to allow him to go forwards without asking too much else. I don't think those things are misaligned with my experience.
		
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There's a difference though IMO between noticing something & how it appears to your own eyes, and then seeing the same issue with additional experience.  Doesn't mean one person shouldn't notice and point out a problem, but from my own point of view, I would then look around and see what other people had to say about it, rather than sticking with my own limited knowledge.

This is a general point Billie, I'm really not wanting to single you out. It's just how I behave myself when I'm seeing something I don't have direct experience of. and you'll notice from my own posts there is often a lot of self doubt written into them, even when I am speaking from experience! 

I still don't see why you think she braced against him in canter btw, I watched the first few videos over again and still don't see bracing. I see great stability and a very secure seat. I don't see bracing


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			you talk a lot of sense, if you would like more experience of cob crosses you are welcome to train mine and me
		
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Happy to if you're close to me 

I do ride a Section D regularly, but I have never considered them cobs as such 

The last proper cob I rode, Mr. Pink...was a chunky 14.3 HW and I really could not be rrrsed to tack him up. I just jumped on bareback in the school as he was only allowed to walk, so off we went. I rode bareback from age 3 for 18 months before riding with a saddle and it is amazing for developing super stickability (shame it doesn't work when your horse goes over the vertical :rolleyes3: )...anyway, I stopped to chat and he did a full on, all over shake. He is a round as he is tall and was also fat at the time so no discernible shape...I almost fell off laughing as I forgot how awesome cobs are. If that happened on either of my two, I'd have just sat there thanks to their withers and defined shoulders. Not Mr. Pink....nothing there...just him shaking and me looking like a ragdoll, lol. He was hogged too!!! I had to laugh. I only felt better when his owner said she had three times fallen off him when he'd done that with a saddle on :smile3:


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## doriangrey (28 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			So DG, are we suggesting then that only an instructor could recognise a tense horse, a horse that is rushing or BTV? Or can only an instructor or higher level rider suggest a change of bit, a stronger outside rein... Blah blah blah - the list is endless. I presume the answer must be no! My response is a basic one based on MY opinion and MY experience - that experience allows me to see he is unbalanced and imo not ready for some of what she attempts. It allows me to see that he was confused in the early days when she asked too much of him. My experience allowed me to question why she braced against him in the canter. My experience has not allowed me to give any answers other than to simplify, to back up a little, to ask for less, to allow him to go forwards without asking too much else. I don't think those things are misaligned with my experience.
		
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Fair enough .. you have a lot more experience than me.  Are you riding Armas or am I being a little stupid?


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			But I haven't sought to comment on the nuances of the breed. I have commented on the basics of her work - the rushing, the early inability to allow release, the braced seat, the strong legs which seemed to confuse him. The charging around while he is still unbalanced, the attempted collection when he is STILL unbalanced.  This is horsemanship not 'iberianship'. Deffo just invented my own word.
		
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I only used the cob breed for you to try and make it easier to understand...my point was about the work, not the breed. Not an attack on you Billie....but just to explain that people that have more experience also have more perspective and might know a bit more about what might be going on that's all. 

By the way...I LOVE new words, I am definitely going to remember iberianship!


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## milliepops (28 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			But I haven't sought to comment on the nuances of the breed. I have commented on the basics of her work - the rushing, the early inability to allow release, the braced seat, the strong legs which seemed to confuse him. The charging around while he is still unbalanced, the attempted collection when he is STILL unbalanced.  This is horsemanship not 'iberianship'. Deffo just invented my own word.
		
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OK, here then, I have an issue with what you see.

 I see plenty of times that she releases him. As GG has said earlier perhaps she misses some, but 'inability' is a bit of a blanket term.
I still don't see a braced seat, I don't know what makes you think she's bracing apart from the fact that she's not moving around in the saddle, but that would not be desirable.
I don't think she has been using her legs strongly. Effectively, but not strongly - no kicking or jabbing, they look loose at his sides almost all of the time. I don't think she can be clamped on either or else she would not sit so well.
I also don't see charging around (on purpose) - the horse steps out of balance sometimes which is different, and I think several of us have agreed that it's not true collection she's attempted here.

Iberianship is a great word though


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

MP - I think you may be missing something. This is all my opinion, it is formed with my experience and I haven't said anything that others haven't also said. I'm ok with looking at something and applying my knowledge whether limited or not. I can only comment from my own view which is what anyone else here is doing. Thing is, I'm ok with people disagreeing with me. That's allowed  it doesn't mean I flex and change what I see. I have seen positive change and I've recognised it when I've seen it. It does mean that I look again with some new info in mind, but then dismiss it and return to my original view if I feel it's appropriate. Just as James is doing and being defended for doing so.


My chopped comments in my last few posts are comments I have made at various points throughout the 14 session 'journey'. Not continous features, but features I commented on at different points.


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## twiggy2 (28 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			Happy to if you're close to me 

I do ride a Section D regularly, but I have never considered them cobs as such 

The last proper cob I rode, Mr. Pink...was a chunky 14.3 HW and I really could not be rrrsed to tack him up. I just jumped on bareback in the school as he was only allowed to walk, so off we went. I rode bareback from age 3 for 18 months before riding with a saddle and it is amazing for developing super stickability (shame it doesn't work when your horse goes over the vertical :rolleyes3: )...anyway, I stopped to chat and he did a full on, all over shake. He is a round as he is tall and was also fat at the time so no discernible shape...I almost fell off laughing as I forgot how awesome cobs are. If that happened on either of my two, I'd have just sat there thanks to their withers and defined shoulders. Not Mr. Pink....nothing there...just him shaking and me looking like a ragdoll, lol. He was hogged too!!! I had to laugh. I only felt better when his owner said she had three times fallen off him when he'd done that with a saddle on :smile3:
		
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unfortunately i live miles away but if i ever make it round your way with ned in tow i may take you up on that, mine has a cob head on her shoulders but looks possibly like cob x new forest


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## milliepops (28 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			By the way...I LOVE new words, I am definitely going to remember iberianship!
		
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I think we are all getting a new vocab today!


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

milliepops said:



			I think we are all getting a new vocab today!
		
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This is fast becoming the most derailed thread ever....but it's funny. 

How about Dumbloodiumship???


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## ester (28 July 2013)

sorry GG but lol!


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## milliepops (28 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			MP - I think you may be missing something. This is all my opinion, it is formed with my experience and I haven't said anything that others haven't also said. I'm ok with looking at something and applying my knowledge whether limited or not. I can only comment from my own view which is what anyone else here is doing. Thing is, I'm ok with people disagreeing with me. That's allowed  it doesn't mean I flex and change what I see. I have seen positive change and I've recognised it when I've seen it. It does mean that I look again with some new info in mind, but then dismiss it and return to my original view if I feel it's appropriate. Just as James is doing and being defended for doing so.


My chopped comments in my last few posts are comments I have made at various points throughout the 14 session 'journey'. Not continous features, but features I commented on at different points.
		
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OK, well that is where we are different I suppose.  If I know I'm looking at something without much experience, I will more often than not take on board what more experienced people are saying. If I fundamentally disagree with them then I'd ask them to explain their reasoning, and then if I still disagreed I might try to learn or develop myself, to the point where I could explain my disagreement back in the same terms 

I accept that your comments are from various points, I still can't agree with them I'm afraid. I think I've addressed most of them in the relevant threads from my own POV


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## milliepops (28 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			This is fast becoming the most derailed thread ever....but it's funny. 

How about Dumbloodiumship???
		
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Yep, to complete the holy trinity you need to produce one for cobs now.


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## Auslander (28 July 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			Has James taken advice ?... no.....
		
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Yes he has. Just not your advice.


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## Armas (28 July 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			Has James taken advice ?... no.....
		
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Sorry Forest Fox/mad-cat-lady/Ceris comet which one are you today. As all of the others were previously banned members !


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## Quadro (28 July 2013)

Why should he not chart the journey he is embarking on on the internet?? Plenty of others do it, and to have a warts and all version is refreshing! Many just post when they win/do well (which is fine) but having the "bad days" which happens to us all (probably more than the good days!) is equally as relevant.
Q


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			unfortunately i live miles away but if i ever make it round your way with ned in tow i may take you up on that, mine has a cob head on her shoulders but looks possibly like cob x new forest
		
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Where are you?


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## twiggy2 (28 July 2013)

shhh dont tell anyone but ESSEX,


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

milliepops said:



			Yep, to complete the holy trinity you need to produce one for cobs now.
		
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Cobmanionship




Forest Fox said:



			Has James taken advice ?... no.....
		
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Yes...people on here advised he take the flash off...he did. That's just one example. 

Next question.


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## ester (28 July 2013)

*wonders whether to ship the welshie (currently in somerset) back to wilts with me next weekend   ). 

Ps I'm not sure GG should be in charge of the word for cobmanship given her previous inabilities to remain on


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

milliepops said:



			Yep, to complete the holy trinity you need to produce one for cobs now.
		
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twiggy2 said:



			shhh dont tell anyone but ESSEX,
		
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Well I am usually there twice a year visiting four different lots of friends all over, so next visit, I will PM you. 

Oh, and I have a really good memory for stuff like this


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## twiggy2 (28 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			Well I am usually there twice a year visiting four different lots of friends all over, so next visit, I will PM you. 

Oh, and I have a really good memory for stuff like this 

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that would be great I can show my lack of riding ability after too many years out of the saddle, for every ones information there will be NO warts and all video of my riding

cobmanship I like that and if i had it i would be proud


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

ester said:



			*wonders whether to ship the welshie (currently in somerset) back to wilts with me next weekend   ). 

Ps I'm not sure GG should be in charge of the word for cobmanship given her previous inabilities to remain on 

Click to expand...

Ah....I DID remain on....just. Twas the owner that fell off three times!

I have always wanted to get myself a proper job cob. Just for fun. I spend so much time fixing problems and training and dealing with all sorts of horsey attitudes that sometimes it's nice to just sit on something just for the sake of going for a ride and having fun. I do have Fly for that, but she still likes to test me every now and then and see if I can sit to a 360 degree triple twist, double flip somersault death spiral in a dressage saddle when I am daydreaming about Ben & Jerrys cookie dough ice cream (which I have just nipped to the shop and am currently enjoying).

I do love Welshies


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## ester (28 July 2013)

my apologies!

I love him too sometimes  - and so do my mum and sis although most weeks I get some tale of how terrible h has been (clearly it was his fault my sister dropped her phone while they were arguing over who should get to hold the hosepipe...)


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

No cobmanship allowed.

CobmanIANship on the other hand is perfectly acceptable. 

As is Welsharianism, Fellfallory, Connemaranarmoury, Clydesdalerwalery and Shetlandeffery :smile3:


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## Vindaloo (28 July 2013)

Oh stop woody vermin.  You are too obvious, get back in your hole.


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## Auslander (28 July 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			How sad that this horse has been subjected to this abuse ......
		
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Awful isn't it. I think James should be banned from horse ownership for all eternity for the life he forces the poor horse to lead


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

Forest Fox said:



			How sad that this horse has been subjected to this abuse ......
		
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Must

Try

Harder


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## milliepops (28 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			No cobmanship allowed.

CobmanIANship on the other hand is perfectly acceptable. 

As is Welsharianism, Fellfallory, Connemaranarmoury, Clydesdalerwalery and Shetlandeffery :smile3:
		
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Is there a term for those of us who practice the barsteward lovechild of 2 of the above mentioned disciplines?  I'd put myself forward as a sample Dumbloodium x cobmanian but it might offend you all too much.


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

milliepops said:



			Is there a term for those of us who practice the barsteward lovechild of 2 of the above mentioned disciplines?  I'd put myself forward as a sample Dumbloodium x cobmanian but it might offend you all too much.
		
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Hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

I'm afraid my only suggestion is NOT U rated 

In fact....I think I have actually managed to disturb myself with it!!!!!!!!!!!


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## DabDab (28 July 2013)

milliepops said:



			Is there a term for those of us who practice the barsteward lovechild of 2 of the above mentioned disciplines?  I'd put myself forward as a sample Dumbloodium x cobmanian but it might offend you all too much.
		
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Heresy.


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

DabDab said:



			Heresy.
		
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Deffo more PC than mine, lol. Love it


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## charlie76 (28 July 2013)

Why the rush.put the basics in correctly and it will all come easily.  This poor horse will have brain fry before long


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## milliepops (28 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			Deffo more PC than mine, lol. Love it 

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Agreed :eek3:

V good DD


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## charlie76 (28 July 2013)

Also,  I don't think there is anything wrong in her riding or style. It's just her method that is wrong.  Her way of riding is prob very effective on a warm blood who in general respond to the come here,  get on the aids and do as I say method,  but maybe its just not suited to this breed.  He has also lost quite a lot if condition.


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

charlie76 said:



			Also,  I don't think there is anything wrong in her riding or style. It's just her method that is wrong.  Her way of riding is prob very effective on a warm blood who in general respond to the come here,  get on the aids and do as I say method,  but maybe its just not suited to this breed.  He has also lost quite a lot if condition.
		
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Tut tut, another one here who just doesn't understand the breed. You may also need to scan in your certificates before you comment. 









(I do have a sense of humour and this IS tongue in cheek)


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

charlie76 said:



			Also,  I don't think there is anything wrong in her riding or style. It's just her method that is wrong.  Her way of riding is prob very effective on a warm blood who in general respond to the come here,  get on the aids and do as I say method,  but maybe its just not suited to this breed.  He has also lost quite a lot if condition.
		
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And she is changing her riding style as she goes along. I too don't think she is that well suited, but I won't let that take away from the fact that he is working in a better frame most of the time now, he is using himself more and he is more relaxed in general. I have good and bad things to say about this trainer. She's being given a chance so let's see where she gets. 

Re the condition...I think there are several factors, so it will be interesting to see him over the coming weeks.


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

Whoops I appear to have been deleted from the Armas Facebook page, but never mind 'oh wise one'  Could you be anymore of a suck up?


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## charlie76 (28 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			Tut tut, another one here who just doesn't understand the breed. You may also need to scan in your certificates before you comment. 


I am fully certified! Rest assured. Still think her style is more suited to the warmbloods of the world, when I watched the vid of her on the warmbloods she looked totally different, far more at home. I don't have an issue with her riding, just her style for this type of horse. 






(I do have a sense of humour and this IS tongue in cheek)[/QUOTE
		
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## TickyTavey (28 July 2013)

I've seen these threads sporadically and dipped in and out of reading them - so caveats galore: i.e I've not read/ watched everything. To me the horse looks slightly more settled in way of going compared to earlier one I watched. Still too sticky, snatchy and stop-start for my liking though. He seems like a clever chappie and his owner seems to have his best interests at heart. Rome wasn't built in a day, and other such cliches. My two pence: go for some lovely long summer hacks and try to make sure you enjoy each other . Why not get some lessons together so that you progress as a unit? (Apologies if arguments for/against anything I've posted have already been debated!).


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## CalllyH (28 July 2013)

Still looks too unlevel for this way of working for my liking but again I am certificate-less so what do I know


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## Mongoose11 (28 July 2013)

Then please leave.


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## _GG_ (28 July 2013)

I am certificate-less too....certificates mean jack you know what. 

Sjef Janssen has certificates but I think he's a you know what!!!

Non certificated people well and truly allowed I think.


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## Goldenstar (28 July 2013)

Had to wait all day in order to have time to watch.
Not sure what I have to add to the bun fight I have been away so not seen the last few sessions.
It interesting to watch a whole work session that's not set up for a DVD so Thankyou for posting James .
I saw stuff I liked and stuff I liked less if I have any thing from it it's the importance of not getting the basics wrong in the first place and that is do with the work Armas did a long time ago.
I look forward to the next one.


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## Moomin1 (29 July 2013)

There really is some horrific doo dah posted on this thread by wannabe know it all teenage riders. Urgh.


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## tankgirl1 (29 July 2013)

Not even read the first page (40 posts), to me admittedly a novice, Armas looks unhappy!


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## teabiscuit (29 July 2013)

There really is some horrific doo dah There really is some horrific doo dah posted on this thread by wannabe know it posted on this thread by wannabe know it all teenage riders. Urgh. all teenage riders. Urgh.
		
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True, PITA posts worth putting up with for the good stuff though :


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## Armas (29 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			Whoops I appear to have been deleted from the Armas Facebook page, but never mind 'oh wise one'  Could you be anymore of a suck up? 

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I removed you from the page because of your previous comments, which as pointed out were rude and personal.


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## teabiscuit (29 July 2013)

Sorry, copy and paste went wrong in my previous post. Trying to quote moomin1.


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## teabiscuit (29 July 2013)

Billie you are getting too personal, I may have to find user ignore.


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## twiggy2 (29 July 2013)

teabiscuit said:



			Billie you are getting too personal, I may have to find user ignore.
		
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i have been looking for it, if you find it can you point me in the right direction please?


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## Auslander (29 July 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			i have been looking for it, if you find it can you point me in the right direction please?
		
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Go to the persons profile, and it is one of the option on the list below their pic


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## twiggy2 (29 July 2013)

Auslander said:



			Go to the persons profile, and it is one of the option on the list below their pic
		
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great thank you


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## TheTrotter. (29 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			Whoops I appear to have been deleted from the Armas Facebook page, but never mind 'oh wise one'  Could you be anymore of a suck up? 

Click to expand...

Do shut up.


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## blitznbobs (29 July 2013)

i cant believe the way this thread has gone... its not exactly worthy of this - att worst its a bit of over ambitious riding /training and i dont know many people who havent tried to run begore they can work? 

if you read whats been written youd think hed bern chopping the legs off his horse and feedingthem to a dog ...


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## ester (29 July 2013)

well how do you think hersus got to be so short.......


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## doriangrey (29 July 2013)

ester said:



			well how do you think hersus got to be so short.......
		
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Lol!!


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## _GG_ (29 July 2013)

ester said:



			well how do you think hersus got to be so short.......
		
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The Winner ^^^ :smile3:


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (29 July 2013)

absolutely CBA to read the entire thread as theres so much drivel posted by those who wouldnt have the first clue how to train passage, or what it can be used to improve, and probably cant even get a soft supple trot out their own beast, never mind passage.........................

i can see what she's trying to do and whilst not perfect or pretty she's on the right lines.

training a horse up the levels is not a set sequence, movement by movement, tick one box and move on etc.

we have taught Fig passage to improve the medium trot, so shockingly he could do passage before a *proper* medium trot even though med trot is a novice movement and passage inter 2...............i have used piaffe to improve the ability to sit, to improve canter piris, even though the piris are PSG and pasage inter 2, have used shoulder in to improve engagement and straightness of a prelim 20m circle etc etc.

anyone who has trained a horse beyond the point of trucking round a circle on the forehand will know this! *head/desk interface*


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## Goldenstar (29 July 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			absolutely CBA to read the entire thread as theres so much drivel posted by those who wouldnt have the first clue how to train passage, or what it can be used to improve, and probably cant even get a soft supple trot out their own beast, never mind passage.........................

i can see what she's trying to do and whilst not perfect or pretty she's on the right lines.

training a horse up the levels is not a set sequence, movement by movement, tick one box and move on etc.

we have taught Fig passage to improve the medium trot, so shockingly he could do passage before a *proper* medium trot even though med trot is a novice movement and passage inter 2...............i have used piaffe to improve the ability to sit, to improve canter piris, even though the piris are PSG and pasage inter 2, have used shoulder in to improve engagement and straightness of a prelim 20m circle etc etc.

anyone who has trained a horse beyond the point of trucking round a circle on the forehand will know this! *head/desk interface*
		
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And calm and breath , cool cloth please and lavender oil.


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## vieshot (29 July 2013)

Blah. Just take him out for a hack and let him go for a gallop and pop a log or two. Then he will smile


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## _GG_ (29 July 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			absolutely CBA to read the entire thread as theres so much drivel posted by those who wouldnt have the first clue how to train passage, or what it can be used to improve, and probably cant even get a soft supple trot out their own beast, never mind passage.........................

i can see what she's trying to do and whilst not perfect or pretty she's on the right lines.

training a horse up the levels is not a set sequence, movement by movement, tick one box and move on etc.

we have taught Fig passage to improve the medium trot, so shockingly he could do passage before a *proper* medium trot even though med trot is a novice movement and passage inter 2...............i have used piaffe to improve the ability to sit, to improve canter piris, even though the piris are PSG and pasage inter 2, have used shoulder in to improve engagement and straightness of a prelim 20m circle etc etc.

anyone who has trained a horse beyond the point of trucking round a circle on the forehand will know this! *head/desk interface*
		
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Yep...there's more than one way to skin a duck!


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## Mongoose11 (29 July 2013)

Ahhh, I think I am working out how this forum works -  if we hide behind more general rudeness rather than making it specific then we are refraining from 'attack' and merely making general observations? Why didn't someone say? This then allows the person to wonder if they are being criticised rather than actually being criticised. Mature


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## _GG_ (29 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			Ahhh, I think I am working out how this forum works -  if we hide behind more general rudeness rather than making it specific then we are refraining from 'attack' and merely making general observations? Why didn't someone say? This then allows the person to wonder if they are being criticised rather than actually being criticised. Mature 

Click to expand...

Billie, you cure more ills with a kind hand than a cold heart. When you make it personal, which you have on many many occasions by being downright rude to and about James, you are ruining any chance you have of him ever listening to you objectively. If however, you made your point without descending into childish sniping and unpleasantness, you might find the things you say are better received. 

many of us have outright disagreed with James at times and he hasn't been offended or ignored us because we haven't been rude. 

Maturity in this situation is knowing the difference between what you say possibly having a positive effect on the horse or being totally lost through your inability to just be polite.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (29 July 2013)

talking sense or polite discussion is generally accepted,whilst making blatently ignorant or inflammatory or rude, or just plain stupid, statements, about something you have no first hand experience of, is not.


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## Armas (29 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			Billie, you cure more ills with a kind hand than a cold heart. When you make it personal, which you have on many many occasions by being downright rude to and about James, you are ruining any chance you have of him ever listening to you objectively. If however, you made your point without descending into childish sniping and unpleasantness, you might find the things you say are better received. 

many of us have outright disagreed with James at times and he hasn't been offended or ignored us because we haven't been rude. 

Maturity in this situation is knowing the difference between what you say possibly having a positive effect on the horse or being totally lost through your inability to just be polite.
		
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Listen to GG Billy there is a lot of wisdom in her words.

After this mornings session I asked the trainer to comment on the session as she has had the opportunity to watch the session. Which gives a different perspective.

[video=youtube_share;q5brYm4q0Mk]http://youtu.be/q5brYm4q0Mk[/video]


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## DabDab (29 July 2013)

Billie, I think the real problem is that you don't seem to believe that a lack of first hand experience would limit the insight that someone has. That is a bit bizarre. If I was to watch someone playing tennis I could easily comment on the very apparent strengths and weaknesses of a player, but I could by no means comment on the methods of the person coaching them, because I have no idea about the process of development in playing tennis.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (29 July 2013)

DabDab said:



			Billie, I think the real problem is that you don't seem to believe that a lack of first hand experience would limit the insight that someone has. That is a bit bizarre. If I was to watch someone playing tennis I could easily comment on the very apparent strengths and weaknesses of a player, but I could by no means comment on the methods of the person coaching them, because I have no idea about the process of development in playing tennis.
		
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this!


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## milliepops (29 July 2013)

J, it keeps saying the latest rider comment video is private


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## Mongoose11 (29 July 2013)

DabDab said:



			Billie, I think the real problem is that you don't seem to believe that a lack of first hand experience would limit the insight that someone has. That is a bit bizarre. If I was to watch someone playing tennis I could easily comment on the very apparent strengths and weaknesses of a player, but I could by no means comment on the methods of the person coaching them, because I have no idea about the process of development in playing tennis.
		
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That simply isn't true. What with me not being a COMPLETE moron in the way life works. I have only sought to give my opinion on stuff that I have seen is uncomfortable in my opinion. At the risk of repeating myself I have talked about the rushing (as did others), the lack of stretching ( as did others), lack of release (as did others) do you see the theme here? What I didn't talk about were the tiny nuances of her riding as I'm just not experienced enough to do that. It is ok for me to have my own view, if you believe it is ill informed then so be it. Enough people have said as much BUT a lot of people GG included have also seen the things that I have picked up on so I can't be completely out at sea.

If you have an issue with my 'attack' on James the so be it. I don't think I have said anything utterly outrageous and was prepared to bow out of this until some very pointed posts were made. Notice I haven't yet cried 'personal attack'? Why would I? I'm a grown up.


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## Armas (29 July 2013)

milliepops said:



			J, it keeps saying the latest rider comment video is private 

Click to expand...

Sorry try now

[video=youtube_share;q5brYm4q0Mk]http://youtu.be/q5brYm4q0Mk[/video]


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## twiggy2 (29 July 2013)

still says private


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## Armas (29 July 2013)

And now ?

[video=youtube_share;q5brYm4q0Mk]http://youtu.be/q5brYm4q0Mk[/video]


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## Mongoose11 (29 July 2013)

It worked for me...


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## milliepops (29 July 2013)

Now working, thanks


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## Spangie (29 July 2013)

I've read the whole thread and there is only one thing that worries me a bit.  (I don't want to comment too much on trainer as not sat on horse myself so no idea how tricky he really is).  However, I do think that the frequency of the sessions are a worry.  I don't like to see quite so much intense schooling.  If we're not aiming for Grand Prix dressage next week, then i'd try and limit sessions to no more than 2 a week (actually no idea how frequent they are, just videos seem to be popping up rapidly!).  Especially in this heat........

I want to move my mare up a level with dressage (she too is PRE) - season starts mid Sept (also in France).  But i'm not going to go mad with her, maybe 2 schooling a week with lots of hacking in between.  It's hot here, flies are rubbish and grass is rapidly losing nutrition, so don't overdo it!

The only other comment i'd like to make is that I don't think you have to be an incredible rider yourself to spot where other people could improve.  I'm by no means a GP rider, but watching top level dressage horses I can clearly identify where mistakes are made, who had a better extension/passage/piroutte etc..... Could I do better myself if in the saddle, I doubt it, but being on the ground can allow you to spot these things.


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## _GG_ (29 July 2013)

That's just it though Billie. Nobody is questioning that you are noticing the right things or that you have given praise when you have seen fit. I can't speak for others, but from my viewpoint, you just seem either unable or unwilling to keep it polite. 

There's nothing wrong with being direct, but it is not going to help your case if you keep saying the same things without offering any insight or at least allowing for the possibility that whilst you may be right on one level...there may be many other levels that you just don't or won't see. 

I don't have any problem with you myself, but I have a problem with bad manners. I applaud you for not getting upset when others are short about or to you...but that doesn't make it any more right to be rude yourself. 

I honestly believe, through reading your input in other threads that if you were taken out of your body for a while and read these threads through a strangers eyes...you would feel the same about your posts as everyone else. 

It's as if this whole subject is like a red flag to your bull and that's not good for you or Armas.


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## _GG_ (29 July 2013)

Spangie said:



			I've read the whole thread and there is only one thing that worries me a bit.  (I don't want to comment too much on trainer as not sat on horse myself so no idea how tricky he really is).  However, I do think that the frequency of the sessions are a worry.  I don't like to see quite so much intense schooling.  If we're not aiming for Grand Prix dressage next week, then i'd try and limit sessions to no more than 2 a week (actually no idea how frequent they are, just videos seem to be popping up rapidly!).  Especially in this heat........

I want to move my mare up a level with dressage (she too is PRE) - season starts mid Sept (also in France).  But i'm not going to go mad with her, maybe 2 schooling a week with lots of hacking in between.  It's hot here, flies are rubbish and grass is rapidly losing nutrition, so don't overdo it!

The only other comment i'd like to make is that I don't think you have to be an incredible rider yourself to spot where other people could improve.  I'm by no means a GP rider, but watching top level dressage horses I can clearly identify where mistakes are made, who had a better extension/passage/piroutte etc..... Could I do better myself if in the saddle, I doubt it, but being on the ground can allow you to spot these things.
		
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Being on the ground can give more insights than imaginable to be honest. I like arenas with mirrors as it means I can see the horse without having to watch someone else ride, but as a trainer, it is extremely valuable to be on the ground. 

I have never taught on a horse I haven't ridden myself either. I like to have a sit on and do a few minutes of basic work to see what makes a horse tick, then I am better able to understand the horse when helping the rider. 

Exception being ponies that I am too big for.


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## Mongoose11 (29 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			That's just it though Billie. Nobody is questioning that you are noticing the right things or that you have given praise when you have seen fit. I can't speak for others, but from my viewpoint, you just seem either unable or unwilling to keep it polite. 

There's nothing wrong with being direct, but it is not going to help your case if you keep saying the same things without offering any insight or at least allowing for the possibility that whilst you may be right on one level...there may be many other levels that you just don't or won't see. 

I don't have any problem with you myself, but I have a problem with bad manners. I applaud you for not getting upset when others are short about or to you...but that doesn't make it any more right to be rude yourself. 

I honestly believe, through reading your input in other threads that if you were taken out of your body for a while and read these threads through a strangers eyes...you would feel the same about your posts as everyone else. 

It's as if this whole subject is like a red flag to your bull and that's not good for you or Armas.
		
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Completely agree with just about all of this. Red rag to my bull indeed... I just have an incredibly thick skin and genuinely can't see the upset sometimes. I don't really do 'offended' very much. Amusing that I have been told to 'leave it' so many times and then others continue to poke and prod. How can I resist?


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## _GG_ (29 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			Completely agree with just about all of this. Red rag to my bull indeed... I just have an incredibly thick skin and genuinely can't see the upset sometimes. I don't really do 'offended' very much. Amusing that I have been told to 'leave it' so many times and then others continue to poke and prod. How can I resist?
		
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I am on another forum, a motorbike forum where a few of the girls are honestly all just as bad as each other. None can or will back down. It is simply a case of knowing when to step away.

That's not aimed at you alone....it's aimed anyone who pokes the fires. The more you poke them, the longer they burn, so the faff on this thread is not only of your making Billie.


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## Goldenstar (29 July 2013)

Like Spangie I would limit the sessions too perhaps tp five a fortnight but there may be reasons that a more intensive programme is the necessary way to do it 
I would be useing an equine physio as well as perhaps a bodyworker during period of intense work as well making sure there's enough high quality protein in the diet.
I like using the half steps it is difficult to do well but it's a valuable exercise especially with the horses than find it hard to do what I dont like to do is to rush the horses out of the half steps too much as I feel it puts horses back onto the forehand I come out trying to think of bigger up and out steps and sometimes into a very gradual leg yield across the school is a good way .


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## _GG_ (29 July 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			Like Spangie I would limit the sessions too perhaps tp five a fortnight but there may be reasons that a more intensive programme is the necessary way to do it 
I would be useing an equine physio as well as perhaps a bodyworker during period of intense work as well making sure there's enough high quality protein in the diet.
I like using the half steps it is difficult to do well but it's a valuable exercise especially with the horses than find it hard to do what I dont like to do is to rush the horses out of the half steps too much as I feel it puts horses back onto the forehand I come out trying to think of bigger up and out steps and sometimes into a very gradual leg yield across the school is a good way .
		
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There aren't many things a bit of well times lateral work can't help with


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## DabDab (29 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			That simply isn't true. What with me not being a COMPLETE moron in the way life works. I have only sought to give my opinion on stuff that I have seen is uncomfortable in my opinion. At the risk of repeating myself I have talked about the rushing (as did others), the lack of stretching ( as did others), lack of release (as did others) do you see the theme here? What I didn't talk about were the tiny nuances of her riding as I'm just not experienced enough to do that. It is ok for me to have my own view, if you believe it is ill informed then so be it. Enough people have said as much BUT a lot of people GG included have also seen the things that I have picked up on so I can't be completely out at sea.

If you have an issue with my 'attack' on James the so be it. I don't think I have said anything utterly outrageous and was prepared to bow out of this until some very pointed posts were made. Notice I haven't yet cried 'personal attack'? Why would I? I'm a grown up.
		
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I've never said that you have 'attacked' James because I don't think you have. Your writing style is certainly confrontational, but I don't think it is particularly directed at James, you obviously just feel strongly about this particular training regime. I think I have, in a round about way agreed with a comment that you have made on another Armas thread, so I am certainly not singling you out and having a go. The problem is that you seem to doggedly hang onto particular aspects of the riding or training rather than being open to discussing them - I don't know whether that's what you intend but it is what comes across. 

There are a number of comments that you have made that have been inflammatory and in the post of mine that you responded to I had picked out one of them. I apologise if I have misjudged you because it may well be a problem with the way I'm reading rather than way you are writing.


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## Jenni_ (29 July 2013)

In my opinion, the horse is not ready for the work it is being asked of in the video. 

And I also think the rider could ride a bit more sympathtically.


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## PaddyMonty (29 July 2013)

I enjoy these threads regardless of my personal viewpoint on the methods / effectiveness of the training.
What I would like to say is that the horse that is trained without any shortcuts or undue preesure is probably as rare as a unicorn.
The only time this is likely to happen is when the owner is also the rider, has the experience and skill to train the horse without any paid for assistance or advice and has no time frame attached to any goals. How often does that happen?
Sometimes the shortcuts will cause minor probelms further on in the training requiring a simple step back, sometimes the consequences can be major. Same with the level of pressure (mental and physical) applied.
Why does this happen? Money.
Professional help whether it be from a local AI or an olympic medalist cost money. The person giving the help generally does so to earn a living. The person receiving the help has an expectation of a positive outcome.
Therefore you get the situation where the pro may feel a a certain course of action is desirable but in going ahead with that action they will not meet the expectation of the person paying the bill.  If that expectation is not met to some degree then it is unlikely they would return for further sessions. Thus the livelyhood of the pro is threatened.
What tends to happen is the action taken is a compromise between doing what is really required and meeting the expectation of the customer. Thus you get shortcuts and pressure.
For example, a rider books a lesson with a high ranking dressage pro to assist with changes.  First time the pro sets eyes on the rider / horse combi it is obvious the quality of canter, level of collection, strength of horse, ability of rider all fall well short of those required to train changes.  So does the pro spend the hour working on the basic canter and rider position completely ignoring any move towards changes as this would be the correct thing to do?
Highly unlikely. Most probably the session will be 50/50 split between correcting the issues and satisfying the customer.
Only once in 40 years have I had a trainer (top level SJ) take the pure approach. I went for an SJ lesson (paid for by owner). We spent the entire time working on the canter (which I felt was correct) and never left the ground.
Owner refused to allow us back to that trainer as in their eyes they hadn't received what they paid for. 

When those being given instruction fully accept what needs to be done even if that means taking a horse at elementary back to walking, then and only then will true training take place.  I'm not going to hold my breath on this one.

PS, for all those that will reply saying my trainer tells it exactly as it is I would respond that they do as far s they feel you will accept without walking away and no further.

I would love to see what the trainer of Aramas would do if given a completly free hand with no expectation or time frame would do differently.


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## PaddyMonty (29 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			There aren't many things a bit of well times lateral work can't help with 

Click to expand...

So true yet so little practiced. Too often viewed as something to work towards rather than a basic requirement for development.


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## _GG_ (29 July 2013)

PaddyMonty said:



			I enjoy these threads regardless of my personal viewpoint on the methods / effectiveness of the training.
What I would like to say is that the horse that is trained without any shortcuts or undue preesure is probably as rare as a unicorn.
The only time this is likely to happen is when the owner is also the rider, has the experience and skill to train the horse without any paid for assistance or advice and has no time frame attached to any goals. How often does that happen?
Sometimes the shortcuts will cause minor probelms further on in the training requiring a simple step back, sometimes the consequences can be major. Same with the level of pressure (mental and physical) applied.
Why does this happen? Money.
Professional help whether it be from a local AI or an olympic medalist cost money. The person giving the help generally does so to earn a living. The person receiving the help has an expectation of a positive outcome.
Therefore you get the situation where the pro may feel a a certain course of action is desirable but in going ahead with that action they will not meet the expectation of the person paying the bill.  If that expectation is not met to some degree then it is unlikely they would return for further sessions. Thus the livelyhood of the pro is threatened.
What tends to happen is the action taken is a compromise between doing what is really required and meeting the expectation of the customer. Thus you get shortcuts and pressure.
For example, a rider books a lesson with a high ranking dressage pro to assist with changes.  First time the pro sets eyes on the rider / horse combi it is obvious the quality of canter, level of collection, strength of horse, ability of rider all fall well short of those required to train changes.  So does the pro spend the hour working on the basic canter and rider position completely ignoring any move towards changes as this would be the correct thing to do?
Highly unlikely. Most probably the session will be 50/50 split between correcting the issues and satisfying the customer.
Only once in 40 years have I had a trainer (top level SJ) take the pure approach. I went for an SJ lesson (paid for by owner). We spent the entire time working on the canter (which I felt was correct) and never left the ground.
Owner refused to allow us back to that trainer as in their eyes they hadn't received what they paid for. 

When those being given instruction fully accept what needs to be done even if that means taking a horse at elementary back to walking, then and only then will true training take place.  I'm not going to hold my breath on this one.

PS, for all those that will reply saying my trainer tells it exactly as it is I would respond that they do as far s they feel you will accept without walking away and no further.

I would love to see what the trainer of Aramas would do if given a completly free hand with no expectation or time frame would do differently.
		
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Completely agree and said similar in I think my first post on this video. To be honest, it is why I don't charge when I train someone. My reward is in seeing the improvements, but I don't need the money. Not charging generally gives clients the security that I am not doing things in order to keep them paying me. When I then say that we need to take a few sessions away from what the goal is to set up the foundations properly, it is accepted and the work is done.

I also don't necessarily think it is a bad thing to be pushed either. I know very many people who actually take things a bit too slowly. Horses get stale and end up bored and become school sour. I'd rather see baby steps of movement way ahead of the horses training as a way of improving the basic work and keeping the horse interested and challenged, then see a horse doing endless repetitions of the same work in the pursuit of perfection before moving on. 


PaddyMonty said:



			So true yet so little practiced. Too often viewed as something to work towards rather than a basic requirement for development.
		
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 I think it should just come along as part of the ABC's of training to be honest. It isn't difficult in itself...we tend to make it difficult by overthinking it.


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## AshTay (29 July 2013)

I've not watched the full video from start to finish or read all 194 replies and I'm not qualified to comment on the riding style but does she ever leave the outside track?? Is there a reason for not putting in some more circles and moves? My mare would switch off completely if I rode her round and round like that for 40 minutes.


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## _GG_ (29 July 2013)

AshTay said:



			I've not watched the full video from start to finish or read all 194 replies and I'm not qualified to comment on the riding style but does she ever leave the outside track?? Is there a reason for not putting in some more circles and moves? My mare would switch off completely if I rode her round and round like that for 40 minutes.
		
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Yes she does....she also does lots of changes within gates and always asks different questions, so not really boring one dimensional work.


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## AshTay (29 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			Yes she does....she also does lots of changes within gates and always asks different questions, so not really boring one dimensional work.
		
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Fair enough!


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## Goldenstar (29 July 2013)

There is also sometimes merit when starting with something new in concerntrating on it for one session because it can give the horse a better chance of focusing on what your trying to show him .
And as -GG- says she is changing gaits and varying the question all the time .
This not how she will work this horse every session .


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## Armas (29 July 2013)

Todays session was a long reining, I can see the small changes the light bulb moments in Armas when he gets it. The collected ridden work when coupled with the LR work imho is a great tool.
The next session will be in the large arena and should be good to watch. As she has stated Armas goes much better in the bigger space where she works on transitions and lateral work.
The trainer has no time frame the work takes as long as it takes there is no rush.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (29 July 2013)

God, are people STILL getting worked up over these threads :rolleyes3:

QR- Armas, haven't watched this one as am at work but have been watching some of the latest but haven't commented. I can see improvements for what it's worth. Doesn't mean I agree with everything the trainer does but quite frankly I've seen a lot worse and have more important things to get worked up about.


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## Goldenstar (29 July 2013)

Perfect_Pirouette said:



			God, are people STILL getting worked up over these threads :rolleyes3:

QR- Armas, haven't watched this one as am at work but have been watching some of the latest but haven't commented. I can see improvements for what it's worth. Doesn't mean I agree with everything the trainer does but quite frankly I've seen a lot worse and have more important things to get worked up about.
		
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Not all of us are worked up , some us are thoroughly enjoying the ride so to speak.


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## Marydoll (29 July 2013)

Theres more than 1 person being rude on here Some of the posts are quite dismissive of others unless theyre riding at grand prix level or have certificates up the wazoo, the thing is, just as there are good GP riders there are some grand prix riders that are very hard on their horses, and leave a trail of broken horses in their wake to get there, so competition experience and results can mean Jack .... Depending on the training ethos of the rider getting them.
Just because someone has a teaching ticket doesnt mean a whole lot either, they might just be doing the bare minimum to get by, some of the best teachers, coaches ive had didnt have a certificate but one was a naturally gifted rider who could get a good tume out of anything and had that rare gift of being able to translate it into her teaching.
The thing is you dont need either to spot a tense horse, or how the rider is ifluencing the horse, anyone who works/worked with horses might have something very relevant to contribute but feel they shouldnt because of some comments made.


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## Armas (29 July 2013)

For those that are interested here is todays video.

[video=youtube_share;C5kWgiZzd-8]http://youtu.be/C5kWgiZzd-8[/video]


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## Mongoose11 (29 July 2013)

Must.stop.myself.


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## ester (29 July 2013)

James I just wondered what trainer/or others on here think is behind the fact armas seems to work much looser/better framed when long reined. Is it just because it is a different exercise for him so fewer bad habits?


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## Armas (29 July 2013)

ester said:



			James I just wondered what trainer/or others on here think is behind the fact armas seems to work much looser/better framed when long reined. Is it just because it is a different exercise for him so fewer bad habits?
		
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In one of the other videos she address that exact question. No weight on his back makes life easier. However with the work she is doing this should build muscle and strengthen his back and make his movement more fluid.


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## ester (29 July 2013)

ah thanks, I have to watch with no sound


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## Oddjob's Wife (29 July 2013)

I'm following these videos with great interest too.  I see a horse who is improving, no matter how slowly and I could agree/disagree/criticise with methods and exercises used from my armchair (or desk chair!).  However, I too have a 'challenging' Iberian, albeit in a much different way and it's only now, after 6 years that I feel he's started working with me - or I've started working with him.  I don't want to do anything great - just schooling at home satisfies me these days, though the odd prelim here and there is a bonus.  I guess I'm seeing Armas looking 'unhappy' at times, but wonder if this is only because he's cross about being told what to do and challenged - I know that's how mine can react!!  So long as James loves his horse and wants the best for him (and it's clear he does), he's the one there first hand so I don't feel able to comment too much just from the videos - and others have already voiced my views many times already!

To hijack this thread a bit - GG, I really like your comments and see you're in Wiltshire.  Do you ever venture to East Dorset at all because I would LOVE some 'external assistance' from someone who understands Iberians (and I do think they're a bit 'special' in the way they go and need something a little outside what most other horses require - never thought I'd say that!) - I am serious!


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## _GG_ (29 July 2013)

Oddjob's Wife said:



			I'm following these videos with great interest too.  I see a horse who is improving, no matter how slowly and I could agree/disagree/criticise with methods and exercises used from my armchair (or desk chair!).  However, I too have a 'challenging' Iberian, albeit in a much different way and it's only now, after 6 years that I feel he's started working with me - or I've started working with him.  I don't want to do anything great - just schooling at home satisfies me these days, though the odd prelim here and there is a bonus.  I guess I'm seeing Armas looking 'unhappy' at times, but wonder if this is only because he's cross about being told what to do and challenged - I know that's how mine can react!!  So long as James loves his horse and wants the best for him (and it's clear he does), he's the one there first hand so I don't feel able to comment too much just from the videos - and others have already voiced my views many times already!

To hijack this thread a bit - GG, I really like your comments and see you're in Wiltshire.  Do you ever venture to East Dorset at all because I would LOVE some 'external assistance' from someone who understands Iberians (and I do think they're a bit 'special' in the way they go and need something a little outside what most other horses require - never thought I'd say that!) - I am serious!
		
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I will PM you later...I am sure something can be arranged


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## Mongoose11 (30 July 2013)

Erm, can I please creep back in and apologise for being a total tw*t? That's with an A not an I  

I am pretty sour at the moment, just incase you couldn't tell and appear to be taking it out on people over the Internet (weirdo). While I still believe in the things I have said, I can see that sometimes I'm just plain horrid. So yeh, sorry about that *meekfacethatdoesntexpecttobeforgiven*

That is all.


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## _GG_ (30 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			Erm, can I please creep back in and apologise for being a total tw*t? That's with an A not an I  

I am pretty sour at the moment, just incase you couldn't tell and appear to be taking it out on people over the Internet (weirdo). While I still believe in the things I have said, I can see that sometimes I'm just plain horrid. So yeh, sorry about that *meekfacethatdoesntexpecttobeforgiven*

That is all.
		
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People that can't accept apologies and offer forgiveness are not worth worrying about anyway.

Very nice post Billie :smile3:


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## Armas (30 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			People that can't accept apologies and offer forgiveness are not worth worrying about anyway.

Very nice post Billie :smile3:
		
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As above ^^^


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## twiggy2 (30 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			People that can't accept apologies and offer forgiveness are not worth worrying about anyway.

Very nice post Billie :smile3:
		
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agree


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## Tnavas (30 July 2013)

Hhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm!

As others have posted above - this horse is being rushed into his work.

I see a horse that is BTV, does not take the rein contact, is not going forward, not tracking up, walk is hurried, lengthened strides are unbalanced and rushed.

I see a horse being worked around and around the outside of the arena with hardly any changes of rein or periods of relaxation.

I see a horse that needs to go back to basics - to work in a long soft frame, get his balance and get off his forehand.

Circles, loops, serpentines, lateral work would all have helped this horse develop engagement I saw only a few 20m circles in this video!

I haven't seen any of the earlier videos so cannot comment on any 'improvement'

I personally would be disappointed in how this horse is currently working if he were mine.


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## doriangrey (30 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			Erm, can I please creep back in and apologise for being a total tw*t? That's with an A not an I  

I am pretty sour at the moment, just incase you couldn't tell and appear to be taking it out on people over the Internet (weirdo). While I still believe in the things I have said, I can see that sometimes I'm just plain horrid. So yeh, sorry about that *meekfacethatdoesntexpecttobeforgiven*

That is all.
		
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Nicely done.  We all have our off days so I'm reserving one in advance lol   It's the freakin' sparrows, they set my teeth on edge


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## Auslander (30 July 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			Erm, can I please creep back in and apologise for being a total tw*t? That's with an A not an I  

I am pretty sour at the moment, just incase you couldn't tell and appear to be taking it out on people over the Internet (weirdo). While I still believe in the things I have said, I can see that sometimes I'm just plain horrid. So yeh, sorry about that *meekfacethatdoesntexpecttobeforgiven*

That is all.
		
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Group hug!


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## twiggy2 (30 July 2013)

doriangrey said:



			Nicely done.  We all have our off days so I'm reserving one in advance lol   It's the freakin' sparrows, they set my teeth on edge 

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hey i like the sparrows


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## Auslander (30 July 2013)

Tnavas said:



			I haven't seen any of the earlier videos so cannot comment on any 'improvement'

.
		
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Please look at the earlier ones - there is progress being made. Really there is!


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## paddi22 (30 July 2013)

Tnavas said:



			I haven't seen any of the earlier videos so cannot comment on any 'improvement'
		
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I'm always baffled at people commenting on these threads when they haven't seen earlier videos.


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## doriangrey (30 July 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			hey i like the sparrows
		
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Well ... I don't mind them for the first minute or so, then I just want to poke my eardrums out with a sharp stick!!


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## Goldenstar (30 July 2013)

Auslander said:



			Group hug!
		
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May I join ?


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## Armas (30 July 2013)

Tnavas said:



			Hhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm!

As others have posted above - this horse is being rushed into his work.

I see a horse that is BTV, does not take the rein contact, is not going forward, not tracking up, walk is hurried, lengthened strides are unbalanced and rushed.

I see a horse being worked around and around the outside of the arena with hardly any changes of rein or periods of relaxation.

I see a horse that needs to go back to basics - to work in a long soft frame, get his balance and get off his forehand.

Circles, loops, serpentines, lateral work would all have helped this horse develop engagement I saw only a few 20m circles in this video!

I haven't seen any of the earlier videos so cannot comment on any 'improvement'

I personally would be disappointed in how this horse is currently working if he were mine.
		
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If you have not watched any of the other sessions how can you fully comment ? Each session has a goal and very specific orientated work.

He is my horse and I am not disappointed at all.


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## FfionWinnie (30 July 2013)

I think a lot of you for saying that Billie


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## Mongoose11 (30 July 2013)

FfionWinnie said:



			I think a lot of you for saying that Billie 

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We're still group hugging FDubs - join in quick! X


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## milliepops (30 July 2013)

me too, me tooooo


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (30 July 2013)

Oh..Well tbh I'm glad she isn't on my horses. He works so much better being long reined. If she has obviously realised he needs muscle building then why is she asking advanced movements from him that he obviously isn't ready for? I understand they train differently over in France, was the same in Italy. However, do you not personally see the damage that could be done? Is she making him trot soo fast so when she brings him slower it feels more 'collected'? For a horse to collect he needs to have more impulsion...not speed....and needs to sit back...But Armas is running around on the forehand and then slowing down...Jheez it's confusing me! Bet Armas' brain is fizzing...


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## _GG_ (30 July 2013)

Did I miss the group hug? Hope not...I'll give you all a hug anyway just because today has been a good day...and I have my Cookie Dough ice cream to finish off in a bit. 

Horses were amazing tonight considering the time off they have had and I really can't wait to get back on now.


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (30 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			Did I miss the group hug? Hope not...I'll give you all a hug anyway just because today has been a good day...and I have my Cookie Dough ice cream to finish off in a bit. 

Horses were amazing tonight considering the time off they have had and I really can't wait to get back on now.
		
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Love this post


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## _GG_ (30 July 2013)

TuscanBunnyGirl said:



			Love this post 

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I may be serious in some posts, but I assure you, I am actually a fruit loop!!!!!!!!!!! :smile3:


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## Tnavas (30 July 2013)

paddi22 said:



			I'm always baffled at people commenting on these threads when they haven't seen earlier videos.
		
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I commented on what I saw in the video I watched - I was not commenting on improvement!


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## Tnavas (30 July 2013)

Armas said:



			If you have not watched any of the other sessions how can you fully comment ? Each session has a goal and very specific orientated work.

He is my horse and I am not disappointed at all.
		
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Armas - Open your eyes!


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## ester (30 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			I may be serious in some posts, but I assure you, I am actually a fruit loop!!!!!!!!!!! :smile3:
		
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we'd get on well


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## Caol Ila (31 July 2013)

I was away up north and missed the whole bun fight.

Do I think the horse looks like he has improved from previous sessions?  Yes.

If he was my horse, at the level of training and fitness he's at, and the trainer was asking him for that many half-steps or collected trot steps for as long as she is doing, would I be happy?  No.  

Do some professional trainers push too hard at things they sometimes shouldn't in order to get results for clients?  Yes.  I had a trainer who pushed my horse for half-steps when the horse was still at a stage in her training where she leaned on the forehand and pulled like a freight train and obviously lacked consistent impulsion/engagement behind.  Horse was in no way light. Trainer's view was that half-steps would help fix this.  I was 17 and didn't know enough to question it (and, lets face it, early steps to passage and piaffe sound cool).  The exercise didn't achieve anything in teaching the horse to be more engaged behind, it p i ssed her off, and cause other problems that a different trainer ended up fixing.  When my horse was being pushed up to collection before she was ready, the way I see being done with Armas here, she responded by tuning out -- becoming very behind the leg, dull to the aids, and still on the bloody forehand.  Before we worked with this trainer, she was at least in front of the leg while being heavy in the hand.  I regret being so naive and allowing this to happen, but you live and learn and they are very forgiving creatures.  Obviously Armas is a very different sort of horse and probably won't react the same way.  But for horse who is only just figuring out how to be consistent in the contact and definitely not consistent in his impulsion, that's a lot of half steps.


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## Marydoll (31 July 2013)

Caol Ila said:



			I was away up north and missed the whole bun fight.

Do I think the horse looks like he has improved from previous sessions?  Yes.

If he was my horse, at the level of training and fitness he's at, and the trainer was asking him for that many half-steps or collected trot steps for as long as she is doing, would I be happy?  No.  

Do some professional trainers push too hard at things they sometimes shouldn't in order to get results for clients?  Yes.  I had a trainer who pushed my horse for half-steps when the horse was still at a stage in her training where she leaned on the forehand and pulled like a freight train and obviously lacked consistent impulsion/engagement behind.  Horse was in no way light. Trainer's view was that half-steps would help fix this.  I was 17 and didn't know enough to question it (and, lets face it, early steps to passage and piaffe sound cool).  The exercise didn't achieve anything in teaching the horse to be more engaged behind, it p i ssed her off, and cause other problems that a different trainer ended up fixing.  When my horse was being pushed up to collection before she was ready, the way I see being done with Armas here, she responded by tuning out -- becoming very behind the leg, dull to the aids, and still on the bloody forehand.  Before we worked with this trainer, she was at least in front of the leg while being heavy in the hand.  I regret being so naive and allowing this to happen, but you live and learn and they are very forgiving creatures.  Obviously Armas is a very different sort of horse and probably won't react the same way.  But for horse who is only just figuring out how to be consistent in the contact and definitely not consistent in his impulsion, that's a lot of half steps.
		
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I really like this post


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## _GG_ (31 July 2013)

Marydoll said:



			I really like this post 

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You basically just said what I did many pages back....but making much more sense and being much more concise :smile3:


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## Caol Ila (31 July 2013)

Cheers! 

As an addendum, nowadays my horse sometimes OFFERS half-steps if I have been doing lots of halt-trot transitions, or walk-trot transitions in the shoulder-in, or walk-canter-walks.  I take them when offered!  But I've learned that holding the front end while putting lots of pressure on the back end is pointless and if my horse had fingers, she'd give you two of them if you did that.  

This trainer I mentioned above was used to working with very fancy dressage-bred warmbloods and showed the FEI levels.  I did see her applying the same methods with young warmbloods who were at our barn and, like Armas, these horses were pretty hot and I think more inclined to try to please no matter what than a draft cross mare who knows her own mind and body.  So I think you can get away with putting some of them under that kind of pressure and they will eventually figure it out (and if you spend time watching Grand Prix tests at a show, you will also see a lot of shight passages and piaffes).  But just because you can, should you?  When held tightly between hand and leg, these youngsters looked frantic and stressed out and the half-steps they did show looked very tense.  And they weren't far along in their training.  Probably showing First Level, which I guess is like Prelim over here.


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## _GG_ (31 July 2013)

Caol Ila said:



			Cheers! 

As an addendum, nowadays my horse sometimes OFFERS half-steps if I have been doing lots of halt-trot transitions, or walk-trot transitions in the shoulder-in, or walk-canter-walks.  I take them when offered!  But I've learned that holding the front end while putting lots of pressure on the back end is pointless and if my horse had fingers, she'd give you two of them if you did that.  

This trainer I mentioned above was used to working with very fancy dressage-bred warmbloods and showed the FEI levels.  I did see her applying the same methods with young warmbloods who were at our barn and, like Armas, these horses were pretty hot and I think more inclined to try to please no matter what than a draft cross mare who knows her own mind and body.  So I think you can get away with putting some of them under that kind of pressure and they will eventually figure it out (and if you spend time watching Grand Prix tests at a show, you will also see a lot of shight passages and piaffes).  But just because you can, should you?  When held tightly between hand and leg, these youngsters looked frantic and stressed out and the half-steps they did show looked very tense.  And they weren't far along in their training.  Probably showing First Level, which I guess is like Prelim over here.
		
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I don't have time right now to go back and find my long post, but basically in it, I say that I believe Armas has been a victim (for want of a better word) of being ridden between the leg and hand in too literal a manner. He appears not to accept the leg very well at all and the BTV habit is a clear sign of him learning to evade. This cries out to me that he is a horse that has been ridden in the belief that to get collected work, you need to push forward with the leg, but contain with the hand. It's like packing a bomb!


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## Caol Ila (31 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			I don't have time right now to go back and find my long post, but basically in it, I say that I believe Armas has been a victim (for want of a better word) of being ridden between the leg and hand in too literal a manner. He appears not to accept the leg very well at all and the BTV habit is a clear sign of him learning to evade. This cries out to me that he is a horse that has been ridden in the belief that to get collected work, you need to push forward with the leg, but contain with the hand. It's like packing a bomb!
		
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Reading threads on here from others who have PREs imported from Spain, one gets the sense that a lot of them have the experience of being harried into piaffe/passage quite early on.  In the long reining video, it looked to me like the trainer was doing more or less that -- holding the horse back with the long reins and tapping his bum with the whip.  You have so much leverage with long reins that you don't even need to have the feeling of hanging heavily onto the horse or pulling hard in order to have a lot of braking power.


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## Marydoll (31 July 2013)

I think many  people on the thread have commented that things are being rushed before the horse is ready, in order to tick the box of a result, where what he really needs is time  to develop. I really liked your post Caol Ila, it gave a really good example


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## PolarSkye (31 July 2013)

Caol Ila said:



			I was away up north and missed the whole bun fight.

Do I think the horse looks like he has improved from previous sessions?  Yes.

If he was my horse, at the level of training and fitness he's at, and the trainer was asking him for that many half-steps or collected trot steps for as long as she is doing, would I be happy?  No.  

Do some professional trainers push too hard at things they sometimes shouldn't in order to get results for clients?  Yes.  I had a trainer who pushed my horse for half-steps when the horse was still at a stage in her training where she leaned on the forehand and pulled like a freight train and obviously lacked consistent impulsion/engagement behind.  Horse was in no way light. Trainer's view was that half-steps would help fix this.  I was 17 and didn't know enough to question it (and, lets face it, early steps to passage and piaffe sound cool).  The exercise didn't achieve anything in teaching the horse to be more engaged behind, it p i ssed her off, and cause other problems that a different trainer ended up fixing.  When my horse was being pushed up to collection before she was ready, the way I see being done with Armas here, she responded by tuning out -- becoming very behind the leg, dull to the aids, and still on the bloody forehand.  Before we worked with this trainer, she was at least in front of the leg while being heavy in the hand.  I regret being so naive and allowing this to happen, but you live and learn and they are very forgiving creatures.  Obviously Armas is a very different sort of horse and probably won't react the same way.  But for horse who is only just figuring out how to be consistent in the contact and definitely not consistent in his impulsion, that's a lot of half steps.
		
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This.  Kal isn't a PRE, but he is sensitive, sharp, short in the back and neck and loves to evade by ducking behind the vertical.  His ultimate evasion is to stand on his back legs  which isn't nice for the rider (and can't be good for his hocks).  Although he is older than Armas, he came to me quite green and backward . . . and my current jockey/trainer and I have spent well over a year getting him strong and fit enough to carry himself (much less the rider) while going straight and through and working over his back.  If any trainer or jockey had chucked half steps or collection at him too early in his (re)education, I would have been furious and it would have overburdened Kal both mentally and physically.  Obviously, Kal is not Armas . . . but I do think (FWIW) that this trainer is asking Armas to run before he can walk . . . he is a lovely boy . . . and it's clear that James loves him very much (as we all love our beautiful horses) . . . and I have seen some improvement under this current trainer . . . I just wonder at what cost in the long term?

P


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## Caol Ila (31 July 2013)

My caveat is that I have become very careful about how much I ask of a horse, depending on its level of fitness.  

I think everyone who rides should put on a really heavy rucksuck -- I recommend a 60m climbing rope, two litres of water, a couple fleece jackets, some food, and waterproofs -- and then do something requiring a fair bit of balance, strength, and fitness, like a demanding scramble up a mountain.  You'd really start to appreciate how your horse might feel.


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## Armas (31 July 2013)

Caol Ila said:



			Reading threads on here from others who have PREs imported from Spain, one gets the sense that a lot of them have the experience of being harried into piaffe/passage quite early on.  In the long reining video, it looked to me like the trainer was doing more or less that -- holding the horse back with the long reins and tapping his bum with the whip.  You have so much leverage with long reins that you don't even need to have the feeling of hanging heavily onto the horse or pulling hard in order to have a lot of braking power.
		
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I agree many horses coming from Spain are over rushed and treated very badly. Armas is no exemption, I can tell that its my view that he had a hard time in Spain as was very head shy & sensitive when he arrived however with trust and time that has diminished he will now even let me massage and brush his ears some thing that was impossible in the beginning !



PolarSkye said:



			This.  Kal isn't a PRE, but he is sensitive, sharp, short in the back and neck and loves to evade by ducking behind the vertical.  His ultimate evasion is to stand on his back legs  which isn't nice for the rider (and can't be good for his hocks).  Although he is older than Armas, he came to me quite green and backward . . . and my current jockey/trainer and I have spent well over a year getting him strong and fit enough to carry himself (much less the rider) while going straight and through and working over his back.  If any trainer or jockey had chucked half steps or collection at him too early in his (re)education, I would have been furious and it would have overburdened Kal both mentally and physically.  Obviously, Kal is not Armas . . . but I do think (FWIW) that this trainer is asking Armas to run before he can walk . . . he is a lovely boy . . . and it's clear that James loves him very much (as we all love our beautiful horses) . . . and I have seen some improvement under this current trainer . . . I just wonder at what cost in the long term?

P
		
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Sounds like Kal has found a lovely owner. We shall see how the trainer gets on, I see small improvements every day and would never do any thing detrimental to the long term health of my boy.

Here is todays session link

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?626883-Session-16&p=11976695#post11976695


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