# T/O after 5 months - for those who don't T/O in the winter



## applecart14 (26 April 2016)

Well it will be over five months since our horses came off the grass paddocks last year.  Since this time my horse and the other liveries horses have been going out in pairs into the sandpit where they have been able to have a roll, buck, kick and a f**t as the YO fondly calls it.  

My horse was injured at the end of December, in what the vet termed as a 'slight suspensory branch strain' as a result of some tom foolery on the end of the lunge!  He's been walked and trotted in straight lines, and I am in the process of getting a video together to send to the vet to ascertain whether he is able to start canter work again.  The vet has told me the prognosis is very good for a full return to work although I may be curbing his workload in respect of jumping competitions maybe a lot or maybe possibly altogether although jumping has had no bearing on this injury.

There is no swelling, he is non reactive to the tendon test squeeze the vet showed me to do, and he has his ice vibe boots on prior and following any additional work in the school to which he appears to be coping very well.  We have been doing trot poles for the last week and he will break into a canter every now and again just because he feels well, not because I have asked him!

I am worried about turning him out for the first time.  I think they are going into a paddock each (probably about 30m x 40m in size) before they go into the 'big field' and i am panicking a little about what to put on his legs.  I will ask the YO if we can be present when they are out for the first time and I am wondering if I should bandage.  Knowing what my horse is like, he will probably have his head down for the full hour stuffing his face but I suppose the danger  comes in the days afterwards when the grass gets a bit sparse and he starts having a mad fit!  I have tried him on the sedative stuff from the vet, before that is a derivative of mares milk and it was very good so was thinking about that again.

What do you do when your horse goes out after a long period off grass (but not necessarily in altogether)?


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## Damnation (26 April 2016)

Maybe just treat it like an inhand grass walk to begin with? Then stealthily unclip him and sneak away?

Sometimes, it is just a case of let them off and pray 

I'd be wary of bandages incase they get muddy/wet/rub/move. Brusing boots?


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## bluebellfreddy (26 April 2016)

I would not put bandages, if on comes undone he would be worse off. Brushing boots if needed. 

You are best just to let him get on with being out, there is not point over worrying. He will just get stressed if you are!! He has been out stretching his legs and not done anything stupid.


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## MagicMelon (26 April 2016)

Mine live out 24/7 so cant really advise from that point of view but obviously they will be pretty nuts the first few days - I would just put sport boots or brushing boots on all legs and over-reach boots. I would never bandage for turnout in case one came loose (and I dont believe bandages actually offer any decent support from proper knocks).  Can you also put a big chunk of hay/haylage out in their individual paddocks to begin with to encourage them to mill about and eat?  I'd keep his paddock very small to begin with and slowly make it bigger each day if you can.


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## Kezzabell2 (26 April 2016)

when Sam went out for the first time in 4 months, he ended up going out in a brand new herd, as I had to move yards.  so he was out with 2 mares, who luckily kept their distance for the first couple of weeks!  I put brushing boots on him becuase I was scared he'd get kicked but the big mare was more interested in keeping the small one away from him, so I never had any issues!  our herds are only 2-4 horses, so they tend to not have many issues!!  now we mainly have same sex herds too, which is much better!


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## ester (26 April 2016)

TBH I would rather they were in a larger area than hooleying in a 30x40 and constantly skidding to turn.


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## Merlod (26 April 2016)

Personally, I&#8217;d leave him in an extra day after the others on the yard have been turned out. Then turn yours out when the others are settled, maybe just hand graze the first day then turn out with a calmer the next. Though, I can&#8217;t help but think the lack of turnout may have put you in this situation in the first place &#8211; as said above only going out for a few mins a day for almost half the year to hooley around in a small area isn&#8217;t ideal.


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## Wagtail (26 April 2016)

I had a horse here who hadn't been out for two years because his owner was terrified of him getting hurt. I persuaded her to turn him out when he came here and I did it by clipping a lunge line on him and taking him out into a half acre paddock in hand. Then I gradually gave him more line. He didn't jump about as much as I expected him to and I unclipped him after only five minutes. He was fine. I think the grass that he'd barely tasted in two years was a good distraction. He had a good canter about, but nothing too horrendous.


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## Christmas Crumpet (26 April 2016)

If you are that worried then sedalin is always quite a good idea!!!!


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## only_me (26 April 2016)

I'd use brushing and overreach boots, and turn out before or after the rest of yard have gone out. 
Can you work him before he goes out?


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## Antw23uk (26 April 2016)

I would be inclined to boot up (not bandage) and put some overreach boots on. Work him first and keep him hungry so he has had the edge taken off him with the work and his mind is on food from being hungry. Try not to over think it and go with the flow. Good luck.


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## hypopit (26 April 2016)

Agree to turn him out hungry, I found Zylkene to be very good for when I needed to turn out my hot headed youngster from 6 weeks box rest. Worked a treat on him.


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## AdorableAlice (26 April 2016)

Two hour hack and acp.  I would be looking for somewhere else to keep him with winter grazing for 2016/17 if at all possible.


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## paddi22 (26 April 2016)

ester said:



			TBH I would rather they were in a larger area than hooleying in a 30x40 and constantly skidding to turn.
		
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/\/\/\/\ agree with this 100%


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## pippixox (26 April 2016)

i also agree I would actually prefer a larger area- safe to pick up speed with space to turn instead of picking up speed and having to do 'hand-brake turns'. 

if hungry and he hasn't had grass in a long time, he will probably settle to eat very quickly!

just risk it in my opinion.


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## gunnergundog (26 April 2016)

Personally, I wouldn't turn the horse out at all at the moment as you are currently only walking and trotting in straight lines.  I would wait until the vet had given me the go-ahead to commence cantering and then get a fair bit of canter work under my belt before turning him out.  

Then, as others above have suggested:  no feed, exercise, sedate, calm companion etc etc.


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## Tiddlypom (26 April 2016)

Did you get his ACTH levels tested? 

Normally, I'd agree with turning him out tired (after a good long hack, maybe) and hungry, so all he will want to do is scoff the grass. Gorging on grass will not be a good idea if he does have untreated Cushings', due to the lami risk.


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## applecart14 (27 April 2016)

ester said:



			TBH I would rather they were in a larger area than hooleying in a 30x40 and constantly skidding to turn.
		
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I know.  But I don't really have a lot of choice in this I'm afraid.


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## applecart14 (27 April 2016)

Tiddlypom said:



			Did you get his ACTH levels tested? 

Normally, I'd agree with turning him out tired (after a good long hack, maybe) and hungry, so all he will want to do is scoff the grass. Gorging on grass will not be a good idea if he does have untreated Cushings', due to the lami risk.
		
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No I didn't get his levels checked. I doubt very much he has cushings especially considering the mass of people on this forum who have also said there horses have been very quiet and lacking in energy lately.  I said I was going to try him on a different feeding regime first.  Judging by the way he's been throwing himself around the sand pit yesterday I think he is just a bit down.


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## applecart14 (27 April 2016)

only_me said:



			I'd use brushing and overreach boots, and turn out before or after the rest of yard have gone out. 
Can you work him before he goes out?
		
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As they are only going out for an hour for the first couple of days and will be turned out at seven following their breakfast it would be very difficult to ride before hand at the weekend and impossible for me to do so on a weekday as I have to be at work half an hour away at 7.15am.

For those that have suggested an alternative yard because of the grazing situation - I don't know how my horse would cope with a deep, wet muddy field with his problems.  Whilst I have thought about it before now, the current yard is a good situation for his particular conditions.  But of course for a horse that is extremely colic prone, it is a nightmare for me when I do eventually turn him out on grazing.  He would not have recovered from injury as well as he has done if it were not for the sandpit turnout that we have.


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## ester (27 April 2016)

We don't all have deep wet muddy fields in winter! 

And it does mean no one does any throwing around of themselves bar the odd canter up the hill here. Turnout just isn't really that exciting and that's the best way for it to be. But then I also can't imagine having that little control over my horse's regime. Ours will move to their summer grazing this weekend and he'll go out whatever time I want, though in his case fed and muzzled .


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## conniegirl (27 April 2016)

we dont have any mud at all and have had very little all winter despite being on low lying flat clay fields.
Well cared for grazing will not get knee deep in mud! at worst we have had a bit of poaching round the gate ways but nothing horrendous.
Ours have been out everyday except christmas day and they have now been out 24/7 for 3 weeks.

When my lad went back out after 6 months of box rest he had over reach boots and premier equine sports medicine boots on. he was put out with a quiet and sensible older horse.


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## ester (27 April 2016)

Ignore the ponies, but that is our winter field behind, and gateway to it, on clay, on the somerset levels!





and again


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## _GG_ (27 April 2016)

If a yard is managed correctly, there should only be mud in the gateways. Fields get bad because if they flood, they don't get any drainage put in (actually pretty straightforward and not expensive to get a mole plough put through every 4-5 years) or because too many horses are put on too little land. 

Not everyone is lucky as I am to have so much land available to me, but my liveries are...because I run this place to only allow a maximum amount of horses. They've hardly even touched the hay that gets put out for them as they never run out of grass.

It's not all luck actually, there are yards out there all over the country like this, you just have to make a decision to possibly make compromises in your own life (more expense or a longer commute) to find it, but if it's better for the horse, why not?

That said, the second picture is of a horse owned by an International Grand Prix rider and he took to 24/7 turnout and herd life in about 30 minutes. Any horse can get used to grass livery, so long as a place has facilities for emergency use or in times of really bad weather, it can be cheaper than a normal yard. Horses have very basic needs and anything recovering from injury does well to be out all the time, building strength slowly with far less likelihood of hooning about and further injuring themselves. 

I realise I am fortunate with having found this place, but I've been on smaller yards in the past and in the end, after my horses having to have 3 months with just occasional turnout in a 20x40 arena, I moved them to a field, put up a old hay windbreak and they were happier than they had ever been within about 3 days.

These have all been taken this winter...in the worst of it.


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## applecart14 (27 April 2016)

Look I am not going to argue the toss about grazing.  Ester you are probably able to chuck your horse out 'anytime you want' because you have more than one horse of your own.  Mine has to be with something next to it.  We have seven liveries and nine horses.  Only five of those will be on the grass.  We have 12 acres.  I am not the yard owner.  I have no say about who goes where, when, or how.  I have to follow what I am asked to do.  The fields have no grass on them yet.  It is still too wet.  This is what I am told.  

when you are on a livery yard you often have no control.


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## conniegirl (27 April 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Look I am not going to argue the toss about grazing.  Ester you are probably able to chuck your horse out 'anytime you want' because you have more than one horse of your own.  Mine has to be with something next to it.  We have seven liveries and nine horses.  Only five of those will be on the grass.  We have 12 acres.  I am not the yard owner.  I have no say about who goes where, when, or how.  I have to follow what I am asked to do.  The fields have no grass on them yet.  It is still too wet.  This is what I am told.  

when you are on a livery yard you often have no control.
		
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what utter rot about no grass!
Sorry but I would be moving my horse ASAP, it is not healthy for him to only have a very limited amount of time on a small sand surface. You do have control, you can always move to more suitable yards who dont overstock thier fields.


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## JFTDWS (27 April 2016)

I can't imagine routinely not turning out for 5 months of the year.  I'm also amazed that rested grazing has no grass - I have loads on my rested field (clay, poor drainage), and some on my well-grazed all winter fields.  And I'm far from under-stocked.

In terms of soft tissue, it really is an awful way to keep horses.  I would move and compromise elsewhere, rather than take these sorts of risks.


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## eggs (27 April 2016)

leaving aside the rights and wrongs of not turning out onto fields during winter ....

If I have had a horse on box rest for any length of time I first start by taking them out into a very small enclosed field on a lunge line to let them graze.  When it is time to turn them out I prefer to give them some Sedalin beforehand and turn them out on their own.


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## applecart14 (27 April 2016)

There is no where else to move to even if I wished to leave.  To move somewhere in the area (where the hacking is very quiet) with individual turnout, a decent ménage surface, assisted livery, trailer parking and storage for shavings is near impossible.  I know this because when I was forced to move from the yard I was at for ten years the only yard that was suitable for my horses needs at the time was where I now am.

The fields may be drying up now but this has not been the case for the last few months on many yards that I know of and many horses have been wallowing in mud, which is hardly conducive to a suspensory branch strain.  We have twelve acres but only half of that is used for grazing, the rest is set aside for hay, so it needs looking after and using only when those conditions dictate that .

I just wanted some suggestions for how to turn my horse out safely, not to be criticised for the way I keep my horse.  He is ridden nearly every night so its not like he doesn't get any exercise and has two hours turnout daily, sometimes if I don't ride he goes out in the sandpit in the evening after work.  He has a small but regular intake of grass when I hack him out and he was on ready grass in the winter, which I have restarted again in anticipation for turnout due to his potential for colic when introduced back to grass.

No doubt had I turned my horse on a muddy field with a suspensory strain and it had been made worse I would have been slagged off for that too 

I really can't win.


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## applecart14 (27 April 2016)

hypopit said:



			Agree to turn him out hungry, I found Zylkene to be very good for when I needed to turn out my hot headed youngster from 6 weeks box rest. Worked a treat on him.
		
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Yes it was Zylkene which I gave him previously.


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## be positive (27 April 2016)

No wonder there is no grass if only 6 acres is supposed to be enough for 9 horses, the YO is stretching the facilities too much, I don't understand why they don't use all the land for the paying liveries, charge a bit more to cover the extra outgoings, with the cost, risk involved with making decent hay saving 6 acres for that probably makes poor business sense, taking on one extra livery would probably be far better use of the land. 
That doesn't help you but it does explain why there is so little grass on what is supposed to be rested land, it probably get stressed so much in the summer resting all winter is not enough to allow it to recover, I used to make hay but the land suffered almost as much from that as from grazing, it needed fertilising at great expense to get enough hay to make it viable and even then it is easier to buy in as you can see what you are buying rather than having to use what you made.

As for turning him out, if there isn't much grass he will be at less risk from colic so that is not such a concern as it might be if there was loads of rich grass.


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## Tiddlypom (27 April 2016)

You didn't mention in your OP that he has a history of colicking on grass. Turning him out hungry to gorge, rather than whizz around, is not going to be great either then.

Re the Cushings' test. It wasn't just his lethargy that was an indicator, there is also his age, the poor top line and the dropped belly. I'd be routinely testing a 19yo for Cushings', let alone one that also has several indicators for the disease.

What a shame that your yard elects to keep half of its land for hay, rather than buying in forage and allowing year round turn out.


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## applecart14 (27 April 2016)

be positive said:



			No wonder there is no grass if only 6 acres is supposed to be enough for 9 horses, the YO is stretching the facilities too much, I don't understand why they don't use all the land for the paying liveries, charge a bit more to cover the extra outgoings, with the cost, risk involved with making decent hay saving 6 acres for that probably makes poor business sense, taking on one extra livery would probably be far better use of the land. 
That doesn't help you but it does explain why there is so little grass on what is supposed to be rested land, it probably get stressed so much in the summer resting all winter is not enough to allow it to recover, I used to make hay but the land suffered almost as much from that as from grazing, it needed fertilising at great expense to get enough hay to make it viable and even then it is easier to buy in as you can see what you are buying rather than having to use what you made.

As for turning him out, if there isn't much grass he will be at less risk from colic so that is not such a concern as it might be if there was loads of rich grass.
		
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I don't know the inns and outs.  I am only guessing the acreage which is left for grazing is six acres (it may be more). Its not my place so I don't know, I have never bothered studying it as its not necessary to do so.  In the summer it is more than adequate for all our horses, they have a large electric fenced strip each to go in which is about 140 foot long x 60 foot wide and that does for five of the horses, the other one is in a small paddock due to health issues and the pony is in the back garden/small paddock.  My horse has an electric tape across the width which I move by a couple of foot over a couple of metres a day (again guessing measurements now).  

It is a nice yard, the facilities are good, the ménage when maintained is fantastic for my horse (this was another major consideration when I moved as the other yard I was considering hadn't got that good a surface) and like I say the hacking is amazing, you can hack for two hours and only come across half a dozen cars.  As my horse is now 19 and entering his latter years,  the hacking is a major selling point for me as it will inevitably be hacking that we end up doing the most of rather than schooling or competing although I plan to do fun rides and a bit of combined training later in the  year.

We are really going off subject with all this.  My post was entitled T/O after 5 months - for those who don't T/O in the winter and WAS NOT entitled "lets put Applecart14 down by criticizing the way she looks after her horse".

My o/h who works as Head Groundsman at a large competition centre in the area agrees that grass is not growing very well so far this year and a local herdsman is struggling for grass for his cows.  We are only in April, I am sure it will grow soon, the ground will dry up and he can go out.  I am content for him to go in the sandpit in the meantime.

I think I will look at booting him, (that's not kicking him up the ar*e) and giving him some Zyklene from the vet.


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## indie1282 (27 April 2016)

If he gets turned out for two hours and ridden for one that's only 3 hours a day of exercise out of 24... for me I would worry about the boredom being shut in all thst time. Sorry to say but it must be pretty miserable for him.  

As for being deep in mud not all fields are like that! Mine have muddy gateways true, but the rest if the field is pretty dry.

Your YO is not really managing the grazing if she is putting 9 horses on 6 acres.... far better to use all and outsource the hay but I guess they are selling it back to you so making a profit?  

Also you are in charge of what you do with your horse!  A good yo shouldn't just dictate as to who's horses go where and when without taking each individual in to account.  As others have said I would look to move for next winter because it really doesn't sound like a good yard :-( 

With regards to actually turning him out I would keep him on a lunge and let him munch the grass and let the line out bit by bit untill you feel it's safe to unclip - if he's been turned out every day albeit in a 'sandpit' then he should be delighted to eat to real grass and be more interested in grazing than hoofing around. Good luck! :-D


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## be positive (27 April 2016)

Everyone is not putting you down for how you look after your horse, being on livery is usually a compromise in some way and people vary in what compromises they are prepared to make, my post was more about the YO in general, it is obviously not your business so you have no influence but it really does not make sense to me, I have 17 acres and around 10-12 on it so can compare,  to make hay on half the land rather than cater more fully for the clients and their horses welfare which should always be at the forefront of any livery yard. 

I would love to keep my land with no horses on it all winter, it would look lovely, but will not compromise the well being of the resident horses who are more than happy going out in mud and apart from a bit of mud fever all have done well this winter even the horse who previously had a serious tendon injury goes out nearly every day.


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## ester (27 April 2016)

duplicate


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## ester (27 April 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Look I am not going to argue the toss about grazing.  Ester you are probably able to chuck your horse out 'anytime you want' because you have more than one horse of your own.  Mine has to be with something next to it.  We have seven liveries and nine horses.  Only five of those will be on the grass.  We have 12 acres.  I am not the yard owner.  I have no say about who goes where, when, or how.  I have to follow what I am asked to do.  The fields have no grass on them yet.  It is still too wet.  This is what I am told.  

when you are on a livery yard you often have no control.
		
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Err I have one horse, Frank. No more. on DIY livery - so I don't call all the shots/I have a YO!  We have 10 horses on the yard, 7 turned out in sort of pairs in adjacent paddocks. We have much more than 12 acres as the grass growth here is poor as on chalk with a low soil depth but that is partly why I chose the yard (because of the acreage used/and the genuinely fab hacking where you can go out for 4/5 hours all off road woop ). To only have 6 acres used for grazing and the rest for hay given the numbers on your yard is just bonkers IMO! 

I'm not arguing just proving a point that you seem to imagine that winter turnout is only knee deep mud. It isn't/doesn't have to be in most of the country and I agree with JFTD that being stabled on small sand turnout has to be about the worse scenario for soft tissue strength maintenance and development. I don't think you can blame people for wondering if there would have been a better way to not to have to be in this situation in the first instance. I would also be insisting mine wasn't turned out in a small paddock to start with because of his injury.


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## ester (27 April 2016)

be positive said:



			No wonder there is no grass if only 6 acres is supposed to be enough for 9 horses, the YO is stretching the facilities too much, I don't understand why they don't use all the land for the paying liveries, charge a bit more to cover the extra outgoings, with the cost, risk involved with making decent hay saving 6 acres for that probably makes poor business sense, taking on one extra livery would probably be far better use of the land. 
s.
		
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I don't understand that, you can't get masses of hay even off a good 6 acres (we didn't get enough to feed 2 all year off 4 acres even in a good year, and good grass growing land). And you rarely save much by making in house either, unless they then sell it back to the liveries. Much better just to buy it in in the first place. I partly like that our yard makes its own but equally it is more stress than necessary and because the chalk soil is a bit pathetic requires a fair amount of fertilising and IMO they have left it too late to move the horses to the summer grazing again this year to do it. Not too much of an issue when you have native that poor grass is great for anyway .

Of course the 6 acres in use is enough in summer, summer is a piece of pi** for most people but if you can't argue that if you have all year round turnout you don't end up in your current quandry.


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## conniegirl (27 April 2016)

I have 1 horse on DIY livery, the Yard owner has 9 horses on 10 acres and gets 2 cuts of hay off 5 acres each summer. 
Horses come off the winter paddocks early april, she rolls and fertilises the winter paddocks (they own an organic chicken farm and chicken muck is probably the best fertiliser ever) then gets 2 cuts of Hay/haylege off them. Horses go back on to winter paddocks in october.
Horses are out 24/7 in summer and 7am to just before dark in winter every day except christmas day or if the yard freezes over and it is too slippery to get horses out (hasnt done it in the last 2 years).
The grazing is well managed, rotated, well drained and not over grazed. We often have far too much grass!


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## applecart14 (27 April 2016)

ester said:



			Err I have one horse, Frank. No more. on DIY livery - so I don't call all the shots/I have a YO!  We have 10 horses on the yard, 7 turned out in sort of pairs in adjacent paddocks. We have much more than 12 acres as the grass growth here is poor as on chalk with a low soil depth but that is partly why I chose the yard (because of the acreage used/and the genuinely fab hacking where you can go out for 4/5 hours all off road woop ). To only have 6 acres used for grazing and the rest for hay given the numbers on your yard is just bonkers IMO! 

 I agree with JFTD that being stabled on small sand turnout has to be about the worse scenario for soft tissue strength maintenance and development.
		
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Please would you mind explaining why would flat sand turnout (which is regularly harrowed) be a worse scenario for a soft tissue injury than a field which has frozen hoof marks in the very cold weather, or some degree of stickiness/suction in the wet weather?  I honestly thought that this solution would be the best for my horse at the time and the vet agreed with me.

I had planned (but forgot) on asking the vet last time he visited if my horse could live out for eight hours a day 365 days of the year in a field situation so that I would always have an alternative if I felt that the only option to me was to retire the horse at a retirement centre or at a cheaper yard where good facilities did not matter.


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## ester (27 April 2016)

It is the lack of movement, regular and slow that is the issue on whatever surface, usually those that are out regularly tend to be relatively sensible on frozen or sticky ground. Those I have known with short bursts of sand turnout tend to hoon and have a buck and fart as your YO puts it before any of their vital bits are warmed up and often having to turn sharply. 

I have to say before I decided to move F to wilts I was most worried about the hacking (because we like to go out for hours, well I do, I guess he doesn't get that much choice but the footing was important to me which is why we didn't end up near where I lived at the time as it was all too many stoney tracks albeit off road, followed by turnout and everything else was incidental. There are much more professional yards about but they wouldn't suit what I need them to be. 

But remember you are talking to someone who moved house for the beast, from a comfortable 2 bed flat to a very small studio annexe where I regularly trip over things :eek3:  purely because of said stoney tracks.


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## AdorableAlice (27 April 2016)

This is a very interesting thread and poses a question that many of us face with box resting horse or horses kept on yards with no winter turn out.  An older horse will often physically struggle with confinement more than a younger one, although a younger one will possibly struggle more mentally.  

There are many risks associated with turning out a previously confined horse.  I had one who did 11 months of box rest in a fairly large 20 x 20 box.  When he finally came out he was walked in hand with acp on board, even that was like flying a kite.  I used Zyklene without success and moved on to Calmex which was much more successful whilst he was inside.

He went out into the paddock (3rd of an acre ish) he was used to with IV sedation and a vet with him.  His girlfriend who had been in an adjacent box next to him throughout the 11 months (he could interact and touch her through the wall), went out with him.  I set up a electric box in the middle of his paddock of 8 x 8 and put his girlfriend in there so she was with him but could not be hurt by him.  She was 11.2 and he  is 17.2.  Obviously I am fortunate to be able to set this system up.  It did work and after a few days I was able to let Little Moon out to be with the big boy.  The horse needed more rest to recover from his injury and it appeared the turn out had been a success.  I think most would agree that the horse looks well in the picture below. Top gone as you would expect with 11 months of being stood still at the age of 19/20. Certainly not a cushingoid horse, no indicators at all.







Mightily relieved to be off the treadmill of looking after him on box rest I was looking forward to seeing him relax, recuperate and revel in his new regime.  My joy was short lived, within 10 days he presented with 2 septic feet together, a fever with high temp and no appetite.  He took himself into the field shelter got down and rarely got up.  His girlfriend stood over him for many days, it took 4 of us to poultice his feet, we had to hold him up and the vets were in twice a day.







Why did this happen, what did I do wrong, my beloved boy got very close to being pts.  When he was finally well enough to test he was found to have a high ACTH result and was started on one prescend immediately.

The picture below was taken the day he came out of his box and was about to be sedated to go out, he was suffering from uncontrolled cushings disease.  It is a disease that can take you by surprise and I doubt anyone would look at this and say 'cushing horse'







I would not wish what I went through with my horse on anybody, I hope your turn out goes well OP, with no mishaps or surprises.


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## applecart14 (27 April 2016)

Adorable Alice, thank you I am sure the turnout will go okay.  This is the second time he has been turned out after two winters at the same yard and about the tenth time he has been turned out after limited turnout due to injuries/spavin/colics, etc. so I am sure he will be okay but you can't help but worry, especially as he is getting older.  If I can I will ensure that his ice vibe boots go on before turnout if this is practical to do so and I will stay with him for a while to see he is okay. Judging by previous occasions though, its not normally the first or even second time they go out that they hoon around, but once the grass has been eaten down a little they find their legs!

I love your horse, very nice stamp.  

I hear what people are saying about cushings but I would like to try the food changes first and the turnout to see if it makes any difference.  He has already gone a lot more forward since I last wrote, when I rode him in his dually, for some reason it really seems to suit him and he moves very nicely in it as you will see from this old link of me riding him in it during a bute trial in 2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTWfHlttlcg


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## _GG_ (27 April 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Look I am not going to argue the toss about grazing.  Ester you are probably able to chuck your horse out 'anytime you want' because you have more than one horse of your own.  Mine has to be with something next to it.  We have seven liveries and nine horses.  Only five of those will be on the grass.  We have 12 acres.  I am not the yard owner.  I have no say about who goes where, when, or how.  I have to follow what I am asked to do.  The fields have no grass on them yet.  It is still too wet.  This is what I am told.  

when you are on a livery yard you often have no control.
		
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No arguments from me...just challenging the idea that winter turnout is all mud and wetness, it isn't. 

I'm not going to sit and criticise how anyone on here keeps their own horse, but I will say that being on a livery yard doesn't mean you're forced into no turnout. It just means you have a choice to make...stay on a yard that doesn't give your horse the best management options or find somewhere else. That may mean more money/longer commute, but for my horse, it would be worth it...I've done it in the past and would do it again if I had to. 

I actually don't think livery yards should be allowed to run if they are unable to afford a horse a minimum amount of time turnout during the winter months. It's just unfortunate that there is a/ no regulation and b/ too many livery owners taking on too many horses for the land that they have, putting people like you in the position that you are in. 

Not everyone is always having a go at you. I can see why it might feel like that sometimes, but sometimes, some of us are saying things because we want you to be able to find a better solution for you and your horse...that's not a bad thing.


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## ester (28 April 2016)

_GG_ said:



			No arguments from me...just challenging the idea that winter turnout is all mud and wetness, it isn't. 

I'm not going to sit and criticise how anyone on here keeps their own horse, but I will say that being on a livery yard doesn't mean you're forced into no turnout. It just means you have a choice to make...stay on a yard that doesn't give your horse the best management options or find somewhere else. That may mean more money/longer commute,
		
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Or living in a shoe box


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## Wagtail (28 April 2016)

As a YO I have the opposite problem. I sometimes have liveries who don't want to give their horse as much turnout as I would like to give them. I like horses to be out 24/7 if at all possible and in large paddocks, preferably with company (although for various valid reasons some horses need individual TO). But this is not always what my clients want. Most do, but not all. I give them the turnout they ask for.


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## HashRouge (28 April 2016)

If you are lucky OP he will be so excited by the grass that there will be very little running around, even if there isn't much of it. I turned my mare out after 5 months box rest and all she did was put her head down and eat grass - didn't even get out of a walk! However, the show jumpers I used to work with would go crazy when first turned out after a spell off the grass. It was never for as long as yours has been restricted - we would turn out through the winter as and when, but they were very fit horses and loved their turnout, so everything tended to get a bit wild. They were worse if they'd been competing abroad and were then turned out afterwards - that was when we really got fireworks! I was always nervous because as yard manager I was technically responsible and it was always my decision to choose who went out with who and who went out alone and then I just had to hope I'd got it right! After long spells off grass, I used to boot all round - brushing boots front and back and a pair of over-reach boots. And then hope for the best . If it's any consolation, the worst that ever happened (to any of the horses) were a few (very) small cuts, presumably from kicking up a stone or something. In fact, the most serious injury was received by me! Turning out after the horses had been competing in Europe for three weeks, the last horse to go out yanked forwards and then fly bucked whilst being led through the gateway. Which put him in just the right position to kick me in the back of the ribs with the front of his hoof as his back legs came forwards!

As for the winter turnout - I am sympathetic. It's not always as easy as it sounds from reading posts on here. My sister and I struggled with poor winter turnout throughout our teen years, as we were restricted as to what yards we could use because we couldn't drive and had to be able to walk to any yard we were on. Now that we are older and can both drive (we still keep them on the same yard) we have been able to go further afield and have just about the best winter turnout around. Our gateway has been hideous all winter because our horses share with sheep and the land owner drives through to feed the sheep, but the rest of the field is lovely . This was taken I think in Feb/ March and they have been on it all winter!


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## applecart14 (28 April 2016)

I've had some dreadful turnout problems on previous yards. The yard I was on when I had my first horse in 1987 had barbed wire everywhere and mud galore.  The second yard I was on for four years had 40 geldings in about two fields (with gap between fields) of about 50 acres so the actual field wasn't too bad but 40 horses all milling around a gate over a period of weeks waiting to come in for their tea was a nightmare and I often sucked my willies off trying to get my horse out.

The third yard was okay but I didn't winter there.  The fourth yard was always deep in mud, the track down to my horses field was knee deep and really sucking mud.  I was there for five years and really struggled with mud.

The fifth yard where I was at for ten years had another really bad track down to the field, so much so that my friend and I paid £70 each to get hardcore put down which we did ourselves but it made little difference.  His field was really deep mud in places too and was compounded by him galloping around in there whilst chased by a pack of the yard owners out of control dogs (the only reason I left the place).

The sixth yard was next door to where I am now, owned by a famous SJ and rented by some woman who would lie and say my horse had been out when he hadn't, instead putting him on the walker for two hours a day.  I thought I was going mad - its obvious when your horse hasn't been out in the field, and I was positive he hadn't been, but she would say he had! I would then ask the groom who said "no he has not been out today as its been raining".  GRRRR he is a horse not an ornament.

This yard where I am now was brilliant with rehabbing my horse.  What with the surface and the sandpit in the winter months.  I know two hours is not a lot but he is always ready to come in when his allotted time is up and comes to call every time.  I guess he is of the age where a little home comfort is nice for him, but I do agree that its probably not really enough with his arthritis.


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## only_me (28 April 2016)

applecart14 said:



			I often sucked my willies off trying to get my horse out.
		
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Sorry but LOL 
I hope you mean wellies!


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## Shadowdancing (28 April 2016)

Wagtail said:



			As a YO I have the opposite problem. I sometimes have liveries who don't want to give their horse as much turnout as I would like to give them. I like horses to be out 24/7 if at all possible and in large paddocks, preferably with company (although for various valid reasons some horses need individual TO). But this is not always what my clients want. Most do, but not all. I give them the turnout they ask for.
		
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Wagtail I would kill to be on your yard! My yard is expensive with great facilities but no fields, and now want turn out more than anything else even a school.


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## applecart14 (29 April 2016)

only_me said:



			Sorry but LOL 
I hope you mean wellies! 

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Ha ha yes I did (I don't have one willy let alone a collection of them!)


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## Sheep (29 April 2016)

applecart14 said:



			I often sucked my willies off trying to get my horse out.
		
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Sorry, nothing helpful to add, but this has me in stitches. I just tried to type "wellies" and my computer keeps correcting it to "willies"!!!

I hope you are able to safely turn out your boy with no risk - in an ideal world we would of course all have good, well managed fields, but sometimes it just isn't so easy and we have to make the best of a bad situation.


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## applecart14 (29 April 2016)

Sheep said:



			Sorry, nothing helpful to add, but this has me in stitches. I just tried to type "wellies" and my computer keeps correcting it to "willies"!!!

I hope you are able to safely turn out your boy with no risk - in an ideal world we would of course all have good, well managed fields, but sometimes it just isn't so easy and we have to make the best of a bad situation.
		
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Sheep of course we do, you are dead right.  People assume I haven't left the yard because I can't be bothered to travel additional distance or pay more money.  This really annoys me.  Its not a case of that, its because quite simply there is no where else that will cater for his (and my) needs.  Besides which, as I have pointed out previously the yard has been CRUCIAL to his recovery from his first suspensory injury and his current one due to the arena surface, which when maintained is excellent, and also due to the sandpit which has prevented him putting his feet in frozen hoof prints, or trudging through mud.  It also has excellent quiet hacking, with much hill work, again for a horse like Bailey with the problems he has, is a fantastic bonus.


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## Annagain (29 April 2016)

You might be pleasantly surprised Applecart. My share horse endured 5 months of box rest 3 years ago. As we prepared him for re-joining the herd (very settled herd of 6) he had a little fenced off 5m x 5m pen in the corner of the field which we gradually made bigger until it was about 40m (it went the length of the school) x 8m. He started off spending about 15 mins in there (just wanted the grass) and we worked up to about 4 hours as the pen got bigger. 

When we turned him out we put him in the pen and just opened up one side of the fence. The daft boy spent an hour in there before he realised he was free and wandered off to eat! The others were out 24/7 by this point and were right at the bottom of the 7 acre field but he's quite an anti-social horse and wasn't interested in seeing them, just the grass.


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## _GG_ (29 April 2016)

annagain said:



			You might be pleasantly surprised Applecart. My share horse endured 5 months of box rest 3 years ago. As we prepared him for re-joining the herd (very settled herd of 6) he had a little fenced off 5m x 5m pen in the corner of the field which we gradually made bigger until it was about 40m (it went the length of the school) x 8m. He started off spending about 15 mins in there (just wanted the grass) and we worked up to about 4 hours as the pen got bigger. 

When we turned him out we put him in the pen and just opened up one side of the fence. The daft boy spent an hour in there before he realised he was free and wandered off to eat! The others were out 24/7 by this point and were right at the bottom of the 7 acre field but he's quite an anti-social horse and wasn't interested in seeing them, just the grass.
		
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My old mare was on solid box rest for 15 months...she was as chilled on the day she came out as she ever was...foot perfect but I think as an owner, you can tell if you're going to have trouble most of the time.x


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## applecart14 (29 April 2016)

_GG_ said:



			My old mare was on solid box rest for 15 months...she was as chilled on the day she came out as she ever was...foot perfect but I think as an owner, you can tell if you're going to have trouble most of the time.x
		
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Yes but you know as well as I do that its often not the first day or two you have the problems.  Like horses going into an existing herd for the first time..... you breath a sigh of relief after day one when your horse comes in with all its body parts but on day four find your horse only had three legs


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## _GG_ (29 April 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Yes but you know as well as I do that its often not the first day or two you have the problems.  Like horses going into an existing herd for the first time..... you breath a sigh of relief after day one when your horse comes in with all its body parts but on day four find your horse only had three legs 

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I was trying to be supportive of you with that post...saying that some horses are absolutely fine, but ultimately, it is the owner that is most likely to know what to expect.


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## applecart14 (29 April 2016)

_GG_ said:



			I was trying to be supportive of you with that post...saying that some horses are absolutely fine, but ultimately, it is the owner that is most likely to know what to expect.
		
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GG You have took me the wrong way.  I didn't say you weren't being supportive at all.  Deary me why is everyone so quick to rubbish me and think the worse of me all the time???

The words "yes, but you know as well as I do" meant something completely different to how you thought I meant it said.   At the end of the day no mater how you wrap them up if they are intent on running around like loonies all the preventative measures in the world won't make much difference


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## PollyP99 (29 April 2016)

As you've said, my mares first day after box rest was a calm affair, day two she went a bit nuts and I couldn't watch as she attempted to let off steam in a small area and did the hand break turns people have mentioned!  Thankfully I stuck with it and she calmed down, timing is important, the hospital paddock at my yard has high passing traffic at certain times of the day and it was this which set her off, seeing her mates going out and just getting too excited.  That first wall of death charge was awful but no harm done and she settled right into it and was back in her herd after 2 weeks.  Mine was bandaged (her injury required it) but she wore golly galoshes over them which means even if they come undone they are contained, they didn't in fact but the galoshes kept them dry.

http://gollygaloshes.com/wound-skin-care


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## _GG_ (30 April 2016)

applecart14 said:



			GG You have took me the wrong way.  I didn't say you weren't being supportive at all.  Deary me why is everyone so quick to rubbish me and think the worse of me all the time???

The words "yes, but you know as well as I do" meant something completely different to how you thought I meant it said.   At the end of the day no mater how you wrap them up if they are intent on running around like loonies all the preventative measures in the world won't make much difference 

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Then we've both misunderstood each other...I don't know how me saying I was trying to be supportive of you warrants a comment about everyone being so quick to rubbish you. We're saying the same thing about horses being turned out after box rest...I'm not having a go or trying to rubbish you...just to be clear.


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## FfionWinnie (30 April 2016)

Have you ever considered the very unnatural way you keep this horse is the reason why it's always lame?  

Sometimes you have to think outside the box you are living in.


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## OldNag (30 April 2016)

Just to echo AA' s suggestion about Cushings testing. 

We had one (20s) who really did have the Cushings look - and yes she had it.

Another (19) who had absolutely no symptoms at all. Very fit. Then came down with lami out of the blue,  no apparent cause. Tested and yes, Cushings. 

Have recently taken on a 20 year old. No Cushings symptoms but have tested him (negative fortunately ) and will do so
annually. I think I would now test anything over 15, for peace of mind. 

Worth doing IMO.


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## JustKickOn (30 April 2016)

Nothing to add regarding the turnout as I can't speak from experience. If I ever needed to, I would brushing boot all 4 legs and over reach boot fronts though. Never bandage in the field, as if they come loose, it's a recipe for disaster. 

I would say cushings test before diet change. Given his age, and although he may not present any symptoms, it may be possible he has it. 
My girl was diagnosed last July and the only symptom she had was her coat change taking slightly longer, nothing else. She was fit, healthy and in full work. We only tested as a precaution when she fractured a tooth. Subsequent story to that is something else entirely - won't go into it!
I know the test is another cost, but surely it is better to be able to make a well informed decision regarding diet, turnout and management, than to "see how it goes" changing the diet? As with AA's post, it can go downhill so quickly.


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## AandK (30 April 2016)

applecart14 said:



			GG You have took me the wrong way.  I didn't say you weren't being supportive at all.  Deary me why is everyone so quick to rubbish me and think the worse of me all the time???

The words "yes, but you know as well as I do" meant something completely different to how you thought I meant it said.   At the end of the day no mater how you wrap them up if they are intent on running around like loonies all the preventative measures in the world won't make much difference 

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You have to just grit your teeth and get on with it. This is the way your yard works and the way you choose to keep your horse in the winter. Of course he's likely to have a hooley, but unless you change the way he's managed in winter, that won't change. 
All I would do in your situation is make sure he's at the stage he's doing canter in his ridden work before you think about turning him back out. And give him a good work out before you turn him out properly for the first time, it might help take the edge off. If he's been out in a sand pen and able to throw shapes in there each day, then he may not be as bad as you think. Good luck.


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## ester (30 April 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			Have you ever considered the very unnatural way you keep this horse is the reason why it's always lame?  

Sometimes you have to think outside the box you are living in.
		
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I have to say I certainly don't think it is conducive to strong, resilient soft tissues. 
It is just completely beyond my experience to keep horses in for the winter, the worse I have known (not with my own horse but local DIY where I used to ride for someone) was sharing days - but full days none the less in the winter turnout so they'd only get out 2/3 days a week. I just couldn't and wouldn't do it to a horse for either it's physical and mental wellbeing and think the faster we can get away from yards that seem to think it is fine/normal and subsequently fill a yard with horses without having sufficient grazing (and the faster owners stop paying them for it!) the better. 
I do struggle to consider that this is the only/best option when you aren't even keeping him on DIY applecart so don't have to factor in getting to him twice a day so your possible area is much larger. 

Essentially I have either been stuck with the land we have (wet, clay, somerset levels) and made the most of it/managed it so that it doesn't turn to mud in the winter - we even just about managed it when we only had an acre of it fenced. Or, the better situation being that I am in atm where I drew a 30 min circle round my workplace and investigated yards in that area and there was loads to chose from ranging from high end comp yards with fab facilities but little turnout, some with fab facilities and massive turnout (fair play to them, they even called the yard grazinglands) and some with turnout but not much else. I can't quite fathom how the west midlands is such a non horsey area/lacking in land that there aren't the options available, if you were near London then yes, land is at a huge premium but..

I also think it a bit odd to post so much and somehow expect your questions to be taken in isolation rather than a holistic view taken. You keep going on about how great the hacking is yet previously you have posted about hacking only once/twice a week and spending the majority of time in the school, it wasn't until we got nearly the the clock change that you would get out in the week. It is still my belief that hacking (lots of slow straight line walking) is about the best thing for oldies without any issues. Frank gets hacked 5 times a week, his feet only touch the school one a week to do something in their and even then sometimes it is only in hand straightness training  (I would highly recommend that too).


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## zaminda (30 April 2016)

We have had to return 2 horses to turnout in the last 6 months following surgery. Horse 1 had surgery at the beginning of September. The ligaments on a hind leg were damaged, and injections and rest hadn't worked. He was like your horse turned out on a surface for a while, in his case in the school. He then returned to a paddock of about 1/2 an acre, possibly more, once he was up and cantering. He was in there on his own. Before returning to the herd, of which he is the most recent member having joined in 2009, he met a couple of the others on the yard for sniffing and reintegration. When the day came, everyone was fed in their usual spots, then each led up him to meet before being returned to their place. We then released them in order of who would be likely to be the best behaved first. The two most likely to be funny already had back shoes off, as they aren't being ridden, so less risk. The  field is approx. 20 acres which helps, and he is only a galloper when the others stir him up. It took a few days, but he is now fully accepted.
We rent a field, so are quite lucky, but he had to box rest at a different yard, as the lady who owns the field didn't have a spare stable over the winter. He then went to her yard for paddock rest, as where he was box resting they are only on yard turnout in the winter, which wouldn't work for me, but does work for them.
Horse 2 is on paddock rest for at least another 6 weeks, again approx. 1/2 an acre, at least, he is cantering in there, but currently only walking with a rider. As he is head gelding, we don't anticipate a problem, but he will need to be doing half an hour trotting before he comes back, his injury isn't soft tissue related.
I have in the past used sedalin and would ride before first proper turnout. I would also allow the others to go out for an hour or so first to get the explosion out of their system.


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## _GG_ (2 May 2016)

ester said:



			I have to say I certainly don't think it is conducive to strong, resilient soft tissues. 
It is just completely beyond my experience to keep horses in for the winter, the worse I have known (not with my own horse but local DIY where I used to ride for someone) was sharing days - but full days none the less in the winter turnout so they'd only get out 2/3 days a week. I just couldn't and wouldn't do it to a horse for either it's physical and mental wellbeing and think the faster we can get away from yards that seem to think it is fine/normal and subsequently fill a yard with horses without having sufficient grazing (and the faster owners stop paying them for it!) the better. 
I do struggle to consider that this is the only/best option when you aren't even keeping him on DIY applecart so don't have to factor in getting to him twice a day so your possible area is much larger. 

Essentially I have either been stuck with the land we have (wet, clay, somerset levels) and made the most of it/managed it so that it doesn't turn to mud in the winter - we even just about managed it when we only had an acre of it fenced. Or, the better situation being that I am in atm where I drew a 30 min circle round my workplace and investigated yards in that area and there was loads to chose from ranging from high end comp yards with fab facilities but little turnout, some with fab facilities and massive turnout (fair play to them, they even called the yard grazinglands) and some with turnout but not much else. I can't quite fathom how the west midlands is such a non horsey area/lacking in land that there aren't the options available, if you were near London then yes, land is at a huge premium but..

I also think it a bit odd to post so much and somehow expect your questions to be taken in isolation rather than a holistic view taken. You keep going on about how great the hacking is yet previously you have posted about hacking only once/twice a week and spending the majority of time in the school, it wasn't until we got nearly the the clock change that you would get out in the week. It is still my belief that hacking (lots of slow straight line walking) is about the best thing for oldies without any issues. Frank gets hacked 5 times a week, his feet only touch the school one a week to do something in their and even then sometimes it is only in hand straightness training  (I would highly recommend that too).
		
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Not just oldies and not just just happy hackers. Harry Meade for one will only take a horse in the school once a week unless he absolutely has to do more in there. He hacks....a lot...schools on grass as much as possible and so do many top riders who have learned how to keep horses sound. Variety...keeping them off surfaces. The FEI did a a lot of research on this...John McEwen has spoken to me at great length about the importance of not riding on surfaces unless you have to. He is arguably one of the best equine vets the world has seen and when I asked him about surfaces for the yard my landlords are building...he helped greatly, but said we shouldn't need to...people should be happier to train on grass and not subject their horses to surfaces all the time. 

Anyway...just putting that out there. It's important. 

I'll end with a simple saying, if you keep doing the same thing, you'll keep getting the same results.


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## AdorableAlice (2 May 2016)

_GG_ said:



			Not just oldies and not just just happy hackers. Harry Meade for one will only take a horse in the school once a week unless he absolutely has to do more in there. He hacks....a lot...schools on grass as much as possible and so do many top riders who have learned how to keep horses sound. Variety...keeping them off surfaces. The FEI did a a lot of research on this...John McEwen has spoken to me at great length about the importance of not riding on surfaces unless you have to. He is arguably one of the best equine vets the world has seen and when I asked him about surfaces for the yard my landlords are building...he helped greatly, but said we shouldn't need to...people should be happier to train on grass and not subject their horses to surfaces all the time. 

Anyway...just putting that out there. It's important. 

I'll end with a simple saying, if you keep doing the same thing, you'll keep getting the same results.
		
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This is so right.  For those of us who go buying or have done in the past, how many horses have you turned up to see/try and been told they don't hack, ride on fields or expose the horse to 'difficult' terrain.

I bought my very best horse ever out of a top international yard.  His routine was stable to covered horse walker, all walkways were rubberised, out of walker into lunge pen and then along another rubber walkway to the indoor school where he was worked.  Then he made his way along another rubber track to the solarium for a bath and blow dry, back up the rubber path to his prison cell.

The vet that vetted him for me actually put on the report that the horse needed to be kept in a more natural environment and would benefit from my set up at home - fields, no school and hacking.  The first year of having the horse and trying to change his routine was a total and utter nightmare.  I had bought a dressage horse competing at medium who could not trot on grass, had no idea how to graze and pooped his pants when he saw a cow, a sheep or a pheasant.  He was however, Boeing 747 proof.

He went on to be a real star once he had learnt to work on all surfaces, and today in retirement he lives in a paddock with his own house and hard standing.  The door is never shut and if I do have to shut it he throws a massive tantrum.


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## Smogul (2 May 2016)

ester said:



			the faster we can get away from yards  with horses without having sufficient grazing (and the faster owners stop paying them for it!) the better./QUOTE]


And the faster owners realise that is if they want good facilities they should be prepared to pay a reasonable rate, the better!
		
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## Smogul (2 May 2016)

conniegirl said:



			gets 2 cuts of Hay/haylege off them.
The grazing is well managed, rotated, well drained and not over grazed. We often have far too much grass!
		
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You are lucky! Where we are, there is no way you would ever get 2 cuts of hay as there growing season is too short. Also, grass isn't growing yet as day time temperatures are too low.


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## only_me (2 May 2016)

Smogul said:



			You are lucky! Where we are, there is no way you would ever get 2 cuts of hay as there growing season is too short. Also, grass isn't growing yet as day time temperatures are too low.
		
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Really? We get 2 cuts every year normally, although can be hay or Haylage depending on weather. Maybe it's because we have so much rain though  (NI) but we've never struggled to get 2 - we only make to keep from 1st cut (yard combined with our field is about 16acres) & then a nearby farmer will normally take the 2nd.


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## ester (2 May 2016)

We woudn't get 2 cuts here in wilts, even with loads of fertilising, reseeding, etc etc (not my choice )
we would easily do it on our somerset ground if we wanted to, that land has not had any sort of fertiliser in the last 15+ years.
Not a million miles away from each other and essentially the same climate but a big difference on grass growth


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## ester (2 May 2016)

Smogul said:





ester said:



			the faster we can get away from yards  with horses without having sufficient grazing (and the faster owners stop paying them for it!) the better./QUOTE]


And the faster owners realise that is if they want good facilities they should be prepared to pay a reasonable rate, the better!
		
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Yes though tbf I am yet to meet anywhere that charges a premium for maximum turnout, lots that do for arenas, walkers, and somewhere to park your trailer.
		
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## applecart14 (3 May 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			Have you ever considered the very unnatural way you keep this horse is the reason why it's always lame?  

Sometimes you have to think outside the box you are living in.
		
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So you think that a horse with a suspensory branch injury hooning around on a peat field (which is still soaking wet by the way and with very little grass) is better off that a horse in a 'unatural' sand paddock where it is able to have a play without the deep surface, frozen hoof marks and the like, socialise with the horse next door and eat add lib hay.

Perhaps I should have not moved yards at all and continued allowing him to be chased by the YO's out of control mob of foreign imported rescue dogs, where the field was very deep in mud in places and where the mentality was being told 'he enjoys being chased, its like a game to him'.  When I witnessed my horse cowering by the gate with a pack of dogs an inch away from him hind tendon growling, barking and attempting to nip, funnily enough I did not agree with the YO's findings, and that is why I moved my horse to what I believed was a yard where his injury would be best rehabbed.

I cannot say for any certainty (AND NEITHER CAN ANY OF YOU) that my horse would be any better off had he been permitted access to a field rather than a sandpit for the last two winters, and cannot say he would still be here now had he, with his injury being what it was.  

I really can't win.


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## ester (3 May 2016)

You are still making the assumption that a horse turned out will hoon, they really don't! I can't actually remember the last time I saw one on the yard hoon, the most is canter from one corner to the other, stop, carry on with life.
Nothing wrong with peat, the best anticoncussive surface there is the way it vibrates.
We get it that you think you are doing the very best for your horse, it just so happens that a lot of people disagree and would not keep a horse in that manner, or expect it to stay particularly sound if doing so.


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## Meowy Catkin (3 May 2016)

No one is saying that you should have left your horse at the last yard to be chased by dogs. That would be idiotic.


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## only_me (3 May 2016)

applecart14 said:



			So you think that a horse with a suspensory branch injury hooning around on a peat field (which is still soaking wet by the way and with very little grass) is better off that a horse in a 'unatural' sand paddock where it is able to have a play without the deep surface, frozen hoof marks and the like.

Perhaps I should have not moved yards at all and continued allowing him to be chased by the YO's out of control mob of foreign imported rescue dogs, where the field was very deep in mud in places and where the mentality was being told 'he enjoys being chased, its like a game to him'.  When I witnessed my horse cowering by the gate with a dog an inch away from him back fetlock growling and barking, I did not agree with the YO's findings, funnily enough.....and that is why I moved my horse to what I believed was a yard where his injury would be best rehabbed.

I really can't win.
		
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Vet has always told me that if horse has any injury nothing is worse than letting loose in the sand school; too many abrupt stops which can injure further & parts can be deep so increase strain on fragile joints. Current vet prefers to put out into field (preferably flat) so has room to gallop but not stop quickly. After box rest put mine into concrete yard for a day so can walk about and then into a small woodchip area so can play without getting any speed up, then into field.

Problem is, not everyone has access to facilities to allow being "transitioned" back into field, if grazing is not available then the safest thing is probably into a sand school - but I would still prefer to chuck out into field if at all possible. It's about working with what you've got, rather than what you would like  

You've done the best that you can, and tried to reduce further injury risk as much as possible, the rest is up to the horse! And after 5 months in, ANY horse regardless of condition is going to play/hood about for a bit!


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## FfionWinnie (3 May 2016)

No I am saying you have kept the horse in an unnatural way for so long one can expect nothing but injuries as has been borne out by your horse's health. 

The way to have a sound horse is to be the correct size for it. To hack it on a variety of natural surfaces steadily and regularly and mainly in straight lines. To keep it outside as much as possible using its legs the way God intended. 

The way to make a horse lame is to stable it for extreme amounts of time. Turnout in small areas for restricted time. Ride it mainly on an unnatural surface doing lots of circles and turns. Lunge it on circles. 

We all know what you do with yours because you post about it so regularly!


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## ester (3 May 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			No I am saying you have kept the horse in an unnatural way for so long one can expect nothing but injuries as has been borne out by your horse's health. 

The way to have a sound horse is to be the correct size for it. To hack it on a variety of natural surfaces steadily and regularly and mainly in straight lines. To keep it outside as much as possible using its legs the way God intended. 

The way to make a horse lame is to stable it for extreme amounts of time. Turnout in small areas for restricted time. Ride it mainly on an unnatural surface doing lots of circles and turns. Lunge it on circles. 

We all know what you do with yours because you post about it so regularly!
		
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This, 
conditioning in short, which is very very hard to manage for long term soundness in a stable. 

only-me yes, it is the sliding stops that are much sharper than in a nice slippy field and tight turns that make me wince. When F tries that going down hill in the field he quite regularly slips over (no shoes) but I would actually rather that as it means there is a maximum stopping pressure put on the legs.


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## FfionWinnie (3 May 2016)

Forgot something. Horse walkers are another great way to stuff up a horse. The torque on their legs from going round and round on tiny circles disturbs me. No horse of mine will ever be subjected to one of those things.


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## applecart14 (3 May 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			No I am saying you have kept the horse in an unnatural way for so long one can expect nothing but injuries as has been borne out by your horse's health. 

The way to have a sound horse is to be the correct size for it. To hack it on a variety of natural surfaces steadily and regularly and mainly in straight lines. To keep it outside as much as possible using its legs the way God intended. 

The way to make a horse lame is to stable it for extreme amounts of time. Turnout in small areas for restricted time. Ride it mainly on an unnatural surface doing lots of circles and turns. Lunge it on circles. 

We all know what you do with yours because you post about it so regularly!
		
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Well thanks for that, its so good to have such expert opinion.  Such kind words from you, especially the sentence about ' to have a sound horse is to be the correct size for it' no doubt in reference to me being overweight, nice to be brought back down to earth with a bang.  Its good to be criticized by someone so knowledgeable as you, gosh there can't be many on this website with your knowledge.  And the bit about lunging, because as you know I lunge him every day for at least fifty minutes on a 10 metre circle. When he collapses on the floor I just give him a good kick and he soon gets up again. And the fact that its my fault my horse has had all these injuries due to my mismanagement, I just love him to be caged in his 8ft by 8ft stable for 72 hours at a time and when he does go out at lease he can shuffle around in his 12ft by 12ft sandpit.  What fantastic hindsight. How perceptive and insightful you are.  Thank you, so kind and thoughtful of you to take the time to give me some constructive criticism and to help in the way you have.


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## ester (3 May 2016)

well you did seem to miss the point entirely from FW's first post and went on about horses hooning round fields, it seemed you needed some clarification as you asked FW what she meant. 



applecart14 said:



			So you think that a horse with a suspensory branch injury hooning around on a peat field (which is still soaking wet by the way and with very little grass) is better off that a horse in a 'unatural' sand paddock where it is able to have a play without the deep surface, frozen hoof marks and the like, socialise with the horse next door and eat add lib hay.
		
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## JFTDWS (3 May 2016)

I love the idea that a frozen peat bog, being chased by vicious immigrant hounds (touch Daily Mail there?!) is the only alternative to excessive stabling and a sand pit for most of the year.

FWIW, I agree with FW about surfaces, stabling and horse walkers.  I'd add in correct training - both in terms of developing fitness and manner of work too.


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## ester (3 May 2016)

JFTD said:



			I love the idea that a frozen peat bog, being chased by vicious immigrant hounds (touch Daily Mail there?!).
		
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 Not without adding how much it costs


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## JFTDWS (3 May 2016)

ester said:



			Not without adding how much it costs 

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And they cause cancer...


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## applecart14 (3 May 2016)

JFTD said:



			I love the idea that a frozen peat bog, being chased by vicious immigrant hounds (touch Daily Mail there?!) is the only alternative to excessive stabling and a sand pit for most of the year.

FWIW, I agree with FW about surfaces, stabling and horse walkers.  I'd add in correct training - both in terms of developing fitness and manner of work too.
		
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I didn't say it was a frozen peat bog.  The fields were I am now are peat based.  The dogs that were chasing him were imported rescue dogs - street dogs and this was on the previous yard.  There is nothing Daily Mail about that JFTD and why you think it is amusing is beyond me. I can assure you it was a total nightmare having my horse chased on a daily basis by a pack of dogs, TOTALLY HEARTBREAKING.  I did the only thing I could do for my horse and move.  Where I ended up was the ideal solution for his leg injury and the physio and vet have never said otherwise, in fact on more than one occasion the vet has said that the sandpit was probably his saving grace as his leg could not have coped with being pulled in the mud in a field.

You all come on here, all righteous and perfect and act like you know everything and have never made a mistake in your life and know all there is to know about everything and then criticize the hell out of me for the way I keep my horse.  The title of this post was t/o after 5 months - for those that don't t/o in the winter.  I did not ask for your opinion on how I looked after my horse or to slag me off because I am a couple of stone overweight.  How dare you, you are like a pack of hyenas.

 I asked you on your opinion on the best way to turnout my horse after not being on grass for a few months.  And for Ffion Winnie to insinuate that I have brought on Bailey's injuries because of the way I look after him, his lack of going out into a field, or because I am too heavy for him (which I am not)  is really unkind, unnecessary, and extremely cruel but just shows what type of people you are.

His injuries are nothing to do with the way he is kept for five months of the year.  And why you are so intent of being such bi*ches is totally beyond me.  I'd love you to say this to my YO I really would.  You are really unkind.


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## ester (3 May 2016)

I think plenty of us have made mistakes, but as else said earlier you then do something different.


applecart14 said:



			His injuries are nothing to do with the way he is kept for five months of the year.  And why you are so intent of being such bi*ches is totally beyond me.  I'd love you to say this to my YO I really would.  You are really unkind.
		
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I am astounded that you don't think that keeping a horse in for 5 months of the year makes it more susceptible to soft tissues injuries and I would say the same to your YO and anyone else that kept horses that way, that isn't just us making it up you know, it is what happens, scientifically and has been said several times on this thread and elsewhere by a whole heap of people. Yet you still seem to believe that isn't the case and that it is perfectly possible for a horse kept in better conditions (ie better for conditioning of soft tissue) to spook in a dressage test and injure itself. I'm afraid I rather believe that if the horse was strong enough in the first instance that would not be the case.
 I don't think it was cruel or unnecessary of FW to make that plain as you didn't seem to be understanding other posts about it, and keeping horses is holistic, so expecting questions to be answered in isolation is just unreasonable.
However if you can't see that then in your head you have no need to change anything that you are doing.


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## JFTDWS (3 May 2016)

applecart14 said:



			I didn't say it was a frozen peat bog.  The fields were I am now are peat based.  The dogs that were chasing him were imported rescue dogs - street dogs and this was on the previous yard.  There is nothing Daily Mail about that JFTD and why you think it is amusing is beyond me. I can assure you it was a total nightmare having my horse chased on a daily basis by a pack of dogs, TOTALLY HEARTBREAKING.  I did the only thing I could do for my horse and move.  Where I ended up was the ideal solution for his leg injury and the physio and vet have never said otherwise, in fact on more than one occasion the vet has said that the sandpit was probably his saving grace as his leg could not have coped with being pulled in the mud in a field.
		
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My point about the DM is that whether they are as British as a bulldog, or imported rescue dogs is irrelevant.  Dogs allowed to chase horses in the field is undeniably a huge failing on the part of the YO/YM who is responsible for the dogs and the horses, and absolutely nothing to do with the provenance of the dogs.  Your comments on that front do sound Daily Mail-esque to me, because it's just so irrelevant.

You are also missing the fundamental point of mine and Ester's and other posts that the only alternative to stabling and sand pits is not actually sucking mud.  It is entirely possible to turn out on grass (or other better surfaces than sand) year round without turning out in mud or frozen mud.  Even on my small patch of clay I use in winter, I only had mud around the gate and their stable (and if I'd had an injury, I could've fixed that easily enough).


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## ester (3 May 2016)

Obviously not having a soft tissue injury while competing at much the same levels as you applecart, on a somewhat more vertically challenged beast is just luck though.


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## applecart14 (3 May 2016)

ester said:



			Yet you still seem to believe that isn't the case and that it is perfectly possible for a horse kept in better conditions (ie better for conditioning of soft tissue) to spook in a dressage test and injure itself. I'm afraid I rather believe that if the horse was strong enough in the first instance that would not be the case..
		
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You know perfectly well that it wasn't just the spook at the dressage that hurt his leg, as I have explained countless times, it was the lunging on the a twisted shoe that had set off a chain of events and had weakened the leg, with the additional work I was putting in preparing for my dressage test and re starting the horses jumping again (on vets advice) on what I thought was an undamaged leg which culminated in the injury when he did spook a week or so later.

And you don't think that it is cruel for FW to say that by keeping my horse in the way I have, it is my fault that he has had his injuries?  Nor the comment about having the right size rider for the horse wasn't a dig at my weight.  And you find that totally acceptable to do you Ester?  And you would be totally happy if someone said the same to you?  I find that very hard to believe.


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## Leo Walker (3 May 2016)

applecart14 said:



			You all come on here, all righteous and perfect and act like you know everything and have never made a mistake in your life and know all there is to know about everything and then criticize the hell out of me for the way I keep my horse.  The title of this post was t/o after 5 months - for those that don't t/o in the winter.  I did not ask for your opinion on how I looked after my horse or to slag me off because I am a couple of stone overweight.  How dare you, you are like a pack of hyenas.

 I asked you on your opinion on the best way to turnout my horse after not being on grass for a few months.  And for Ffion Winnie to insinuate that I have brought on Bailey's injuries because of the way I look after him, his lack of going out into a field, or because I am too heavy for him (which I am not)  is really unkind, unnecessary, and extremely cruel but just shows what type of people you are.

His injuries are nothing to do with the way he is kept for five months of the year.  And why you are so intent of being such bi*ches is totally beyond me.  I'd love you to say this to my YO I really would.  You are really unkind.
		
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I make many mistakes, and quite often post about them on here. People arent always lovely, and sometimes they arent even right, but more often than not they are. I try and always take on board whats said to me regardless, because otherwise, what is the point in posting in the first place? And sometimes, people do need to be pulled up on what they are doing. This is one of those occasions.


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## ester (3 May 2016)

well know, I thought he went lame when he spooked at dressage which was the case. 

You still don't accept the scientific fact that lack of turnout = poorly conditioned soft tissues?

It might not be your fault but I don't think you way you keep him has helped, I don't think it cruel, I think it a probability that you seem to have great trouble getting your head around even considering let along accepting! If you don't want any input even though the people on here only ever have the horse's best interests at heart (being a horse not a people forum) and well, if that upsets the owner sometimes, tough it doesn't make them mean, or wrong, or bullying or all those other things that come up and eventually, one hopes, the owner might actually take some of it in. 

I don't think it was a dig at your weight, just part of the long list of facts around keeping horses long term sound.


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## applecart14 (3 May 2016)

JFTD said:



			My point about the DM is that whether they are as British as a bulldog, or imported rescue dogs is irrelevant.  Dogs allowed to chase horses in the field is undeniably a huge failing on the part of the YO/YM who is responsible for the dogs and the horses, and absolutely nothing to do with the provenance of the dogs.  Your comments on that front do sound Daily Mail-esque to me, because it's just so irrelevant.

.
		
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I left the yard because the dogs were chasing my horse with his injury.  I am not sure why that is so irrelevant in your eyes and why you cannot see that for what it is.  And for the hundredth time there are no yards in the area I would wish to stable my horse that have fields that would be suitable for my horse with the injury that he has and where I would not be compromised on other things like good hacking, or a decent ménage surface.  I am not sure why that is so hard to believe.   

We have lots of yards by us, but most are ruled out because my horse needs individual turnout.  Some are ruled out because I need to stable my horse on shavings.  Others are ruled out because their ménage surface is S**T, or their fields are like a bog because they are not managed properly.  Others because the only hacking is down a busy A road.  And others obviously due to being outside my price range, much as I would love to be able to pay £240 a week to go to the yard next door or £180 a week to the other one.

Thank you to those who have replied to my post with helpful and 'on topic' advice.  I will consider your advice.  I will ask my vet next time I speak to him if he feels that Bailey is able to cope with winter mud, but as we have already discussed the merits of the sandpit, I think I know my answer.

For those that have just used this exercise for another bitch fest please go away, I find it all very pathetic and wearing.


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## ester (3 May 2016)

how often are you hacking atm? You keep saying how great it is yet as I said earlier you were only able to do so at weekends until the clocks changed.
and don't even get me started on the life we force our horses to have on individual turnout.


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## JFTDWS (3 May 2016)

applecart14 said:



			I left the yard because the dogs were chasing my horse with his injury.  I am not sure why that is so irrelevant in your eyes and why you cannot see that for what it is.
		
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I don't believe you have read my comments.  If you have, you need to re-read them...  The provenance of the dogs is irrelevant, not their being allowed to run riot by the YO.  I'm not sure that it's a particularly difficult concept to grasp...


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## ester (3 May 2016)

JFTD said:



			I don't believe you have read my comments.  If you have, you need to re-read them...  The provenance of the dogs is irrelevant, not their being allowed to run riot by the YO.  I'm not sure that it's a particularly difficult concept to grasp...
		
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maybe she is unfamiliar with the dailyfail's take on things?


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## applecart14 (3 May 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			otherwise, what is the point in posting in the first place? .
		
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I posted about something entirely different to the responses I got from those in the minority who feel their only aim in life is to make others feel S**T about themselves in order to get their kicks.

Ester I try to hack out three or four days a week now the clocks have changed and last weekend I hacked out on both Saturday and Sunday for an hour and a half each day and again midweek when a hack turned bad which ended up in an almost two hour hack.  The hacking is wonderful, and cannot be faulted, the cars all slow down without exception, and there is very little traffic with many bridlepaths and lanes and lots of alternatives.  Coming from a yard where the only hacking was down a very long lane leading to a National Trust House so having to stand on the verge every few yards to avoid elderly weekend drivers travelling to the House or having to cross a busy A road it is amazing the comparrison.

My horse has been on individual turnout since about 2008 when he got kicked and ended up with a bone fragment which according the vet could have turned catastrophic had I continued to allow him turnout, when I had originally been told by the vet to turn him out in the first place.  It was only when I insisted on an xray having been told it was 'just bruising' and knowing full well that he shouldn't have been as lame as he was with 'just bruising' that I discovered upon xray that it was potentially life threatening. There was also potential nerve damage and problems with extending that leg, which fortunately didn't happen.  

When I enquired a few years ago about moving to another yard I was told it wouldn't be fair on the other horses as your horse has lived on its own for eight years and it may be harmful to other horses which I completely agree as he would be very boisterous.  He has always liked to play and he would be his own worst enemy.


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## ester (3 May 2016)

applecart14 said:



			will ask my vet next time I speak to him if he feels that Bailey is able to cope with winter mud, but as we have already discussed the merits of the sandpit, I think I know my answer.

.
		
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There you go again, why winter mud!?!? Obviously if you ask your vet if lashings of winter mud will be good for him the answer will be no.


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## ester (3 May 2016)

applecart14 said:



			I posted about something entirely different to the responses I got from those in the minority who feel their only aim in life is to make others feel S**T about themselves in order to get their kicks.
		
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No, they are worried more about the horse than their owner's sentimentalities. It being a horse forum and all. And as I have said before, and will say again keeping horses is generally HOLISTIC


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## JFTDWS (3 May 2016)

ester said:



			maybe she is unfamiliar with the dailyfail's take on things?
		
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Possibly...  It was a tongue in cheek comment, but we're going to fixate on that and ignore the important aspects of the management issue here.


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## YorksG (3 May 2016)

Surely the causes of injuries need to be assessed carefully to prevent re-occurance. If a horse is lunged on a twisted shoe, and subsequently spooks and causes long term damage, the cause would be being lunged on a twisted shoe (why on earth did that happen?) If that is on top of conformation problems, or insufficient fittening work, or insufficient turnout, or a rider who is at the top end of the weight for the horse, or a combination of all four, then surely a set up which can change those variables which can be changed, is the most appropriate for the horse.


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## KautoStar1 (3 May 2016)

I think you just have to take as many reasonable precautions as you can - hand graze him first, lightly sedate - he needs to have the edge taken off but be aware of his surroundings and control of his legs - and turn him out alone.   I get Ester's view about individual turn out, but sometimes it is a necessity short term (and maybe long term too).

If the injury has healed then its not much more of a risk than before.


In terms of your livery, can you not cast your net further ?  Mine is 25 miles away from home, its not ideal distance wise for me, but from his perspective it is perfect as he has access to his paddock all year round, except of course in exceptional weather circumstances.


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## ester (3 May 2016)

KautoStar1 said:



			I get Ester's view about individual turn out, but sometimes it is a necessity short term (and maybe long term too).

If the injury has healed then its not much more of a risk than before.


In terms of your livery, can you not cast your net further ?  Mine is 25 miles away from home, its not ideal distance wise for me, but from his perspective it is perfect as he has access to his paddock all year round, except of course in exceptional weather circumstances.
		
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Yup absolutely a necessity at times, just not convinced on those that have to suffer it as a long term life choice (the last 8 years in this horse's case), but then Mum's mare really likes her sheep!
I think I suggested casting net wider earlier, especially as he is on livery so applecart doesn't have to get up there twice a day which obviously limits you more but apparently solihull is awash with mud and unsuitable yards. (so tempted to mention immigrant dogs here and failing to resist )


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## Wagtail (3 May 2016)

Winter mud is prevalent in most yards which are on clay soil or are over-stocked. Countless people keep their horses where they hang around in muddy gateways and get mud fever and risk injury. I don't know how large the sand pit the OP describes is. I have one (20mx40m) and in the wettest parts of the winter the horses go out all day in it and the arena. If I ever move, I will be constructing another one as well as a riding arena because it is absolutely invaluable. In my lifetime with horses I have personally known several horses that have had life-ending injuries in the field, and zero horses that have had life ending injuries being turned out on a surface. I will continue to keep the horses off the fields when I deem them too slippery or muddy. I don't think surfaces should be rubbished as they have been on this thread. I do agree that 2 hours turnout a day is far too little, but if you are at livery, you often don't have a choice. I can honestly say that in the worst of the weather the horses much prefer the sand. I had one group of 3 horses given free access to the sand from their field both in the winter and the summer. In the winter they chose almost never to go into the field. In the summer they went out to eat and returned to the sand to doze. They voted with their feet.

I agree that over-schooling of horses on a surface in circles is extremely bad for them, but the same is true in the field. Lots of small circles are not good at all. I don't like horse-walkers, although they have their place in rehabilitation if the horse is unsafe to walk in hand.

ETA: I make it clear to my liveries that when I take the horses into the sand turnout they can still have their horse turned out in the field if they prefer. Only one person has chosen to do that in the eleven years I have run the yard.


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## applecart14 (3 May 2016)

KautoStar1 said:



			In terms of your livery, can you not cast your net further ?  Mine is 25 miles away from home, its not ideal distance wise for me, but from his perspective it is perfect as he has access to his paddock all year round, except of course in exceptional weather circumstances.
		
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No I can't Kauto Star. I am already up at 6am every morning, in work for 7.15 after a 35 minute drive.  Nine hours at work.  Then another 35 minute drive at night to the yard. Then a 30 minute drive to my partners, then a 15 minute drive home.  I have two parents in their eighties who are poorly at the moment, one of whom is due to start radiotherapy.  My GP says I am suffering from exhaustion and am picking up my blood test results tonight to see where we go from here.  I cannot drive 25 miles from home.  

YorksG the horse had a mad fit on the lunge in around the second half of December last year bucking, and galloping around on the lunge and springing a shoe. Before the shoe came off he managed to somehow stand on the twisted shoe before I could stop him (he was very fresh) and a nail penetrated the sole.  He was poulticed for two days which wase clear so had his shoe back on.  I had no reason to know he had sprained his suspensory branch, he was not lame and indeed on the day of the dressage in front of a very experienced dressage judge came 4th, before spinning after the test at a banner on a fence and sustaining the injury.  

I am sorry but I am not going to comment further on this post now.


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## ester (3 May 2016)

soil types change a lot in a small area though, we have one slope with clay on it, the rest is chalk. 
Also your horses are out all day in it, not an hour a day (which is where the hooning gets worse- if they are going to hoon I would still rather they had more space, but avoiding hooning in the first place is even better).


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## ester (3 May 2016)

applecart14 said:



			I am sorry but I am not going to comment further on this post now.
		
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That's a shame as you haven't answered any of my points about your beliefs/reasoning about soft tissue strength and work.


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## YorksG (3 May 2016)

YorksG the horse had a mad fit on the lunge in around the second half of December last year bucking, and galloping around on the lunge and springing a shoe. Before the shoe came off he managed to somehow stand on the twisted shoe before I could stop him (he was very fresh) and a nail penetrated the sole.  He was poulticed for two days which wase clear so had his shoe back on.  I had no reason to know he had sprained his suspensory branch, he was not lame and indeed on the day of the dressage in front of a very experienced dressage judge came 4th, before spinning after the test at a banner on a fence and sustaining the injury.  

I am sorry but I am not going to comment further on this post now.[/QUOTE]

I appreciate that the lunge episode was an unfortunate accident, however the other variables are just that, variable, it is possible that the original injury would have been less severe if the other conditions had been more favourable for long term health IMO.


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## KautoStar1 (3 May 2016)

applecart14 said:



			No I can't Kauto Star. I am already up at 6am every morning, in work for 7.15 after a 35 minute drive.  Nine hours at work.  Then another 35 minute drive at night to the yard. Then a 30 minute drive to my partners, then a 15 minute drive home.  I have two parents in their eighties who are poorly at the moment, one of whom is due to start radiotherapy.  My GP says I am suffering from exhaustion and am picking up my blood test results tonight to see where we go from here.  I cannot drive 25 miles from home.
		
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I was only suggesting this on the basis that if he had more turn out across the year then the need for you to exercise him on a daily basis would be reduced.  And if that's the case and given he's an older horse, reducing his work load wouldn't be a huge issue.  So potentially it could buy you the time you clearly need at the moment for other things and give him what he needs, which is all year turn out.   it was just a thought.


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## applecart14 (3 May 2016)

ester said:



			That's a shame as you haven't answered any of my points about your beliefs/reasoning about soft tissue strength and work.
		
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Sorry Ester, I have explained my circumstances and it is what it is.  I have always done my utmost for the horse who I love dearly and if that contradicts anyone else's techniques or management then so be it.  I believe I have given him the best possible chance, lets face it most of you would have euthanized him years ago, had you been in my shoes.  

So how you feel that it is beneficial to strip down every aspect of my management, scrutinize it and feel like you have the right to belittle and put me down (I am not just talking about you) laugh at me, criticize and talk down to me is beyond me.  All about a subject that I did not even post about in the first place.  Truly amazing. I refuse to be your entertainment any longer.


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## RunToEarth (3 May 2016)

ester said:



			That's a shame as you haven't answered any of my points about your beliefs/reasoning about soft tissue strength and work.
		
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She won't, because anyone with half a brain cell knows the correlation between having a horse stabled for five months of the year and the affects on soft tissue - which is why most people have commented on the daily management of the OP's horse, rather than answer the OP, as I believe people who stable horses for five months of the year are in the minority. 

I don't know why I still read the OP's threads, all she ever does is dismiss every piece of logical advice she gets and keeps on buggering through blindly. I agree with everything FW has posted. There are variable factors in keeping horses sound that are very much unique to each horse, but there are certain things that are just basic common sense IMO.


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## ester (3 May 2016)

So do you agree that lack of turnout = poorly conditioned soft tissues?

I'm not talking about your circumstances and what they are I am talking about the acceptance or even considering the science behind what a lot of people have been getting at (not just FW).


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## applecart14 (3 May 2016)

For those who have rubbished my claims that there is no grass coming through at the moment, or that other peoples fields aren't wet or boggy, you might like to read this post

https://forums-secure.horseandhound...nter-fields-Grass-taking-AGES-to-come-through


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## ester (3 May 2016)

I don't think anyone rubbished those claims, we have very little growing atm and only just so I am not surprised that those further north wouldn't. I don't imagine FW has much up there in scotland!
This isn't a dreadful thing for most of us though, too much grass is not good.


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## Regandal (3 May 2016)

Looking after a fragile horse is exhausting.  If I were you,  I would get him used to turnout and use the summer to find decent grass livery. Chuck him out for a year. Give yourself a decent break.


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## Smogul (3 May 2016)

only_me said:



			Really? We get 2 cuts every year normally, although can be hay or Haylage depending on weather. Maybe it's because we have so much rain though  (NI) but we've never struggled to get 2 - we only make to keep from 1st cut (yard combined with our field is about 16acres) & then a nearby farmer will normally take the 2nd.
		
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You obviously didn't read my first post. Nothing to do with rain (although we have too much). we are still having overnight frost and low daytime temperatures which don't make good growing conditions and do make it a pretty short season.


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## Red-1 (3 May 2016)

RunToEarth said:



			...... all she ever does is dismiss every piece of logical advice she gets and keeps on buggering through blindly.
		
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Slightly off topic, but anyone else really surprised that the word beginning with b was not starred out???? It seems that many lesser one do get starred.


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## Smogul (3 May 2016)

ester said:





Smogul said:



			Yes though tbf I am yet to meet anywhere that charges a premium for maximum turnout, lots that do for arenas, walkers, and somewhere to park your trailer.
		
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Yards don't offer it because owners won't pay for it. I used to do the books for a yard where YO did the research and the costings. To offer all year turnout in the area (high rainfall, heavy clay soil, short growing season), she would have had to reduce the yard size by about one third. As she still had to make a living, livery charges would have had to go up accordingly. When offered this option, owners voted with their feet, moving to other yards which charged less and offered correspondingly poorer turnout. Yard is no longer in business
		
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## ester (3 May 2016)

No, I meant I know plenty that offer lots of turnout and charge less/the same than those that don't all other things being equal. They probably should charge more, but they just don't so it is hard to say it would happen if people were happy to pay a premium for it as no where I know with excellent turnout charges more than those with pants turnout.


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## applecart14 (3 May 2016)

ester said:



			No, I meant I know plenty that offer lots of turnout and charge less/the same than those that don't all other things being equal. They probably should charge more, but they just don't so it is hard to say it would happen if people were happy to pay a premium for it as no where I know with excellent turnout charges more than those with pants turnout.
		
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Sometimes you go to a yard with the promise of x, y and z and end up with nothing like and conversly other times you are told that the turnout is wonderful and find that come the winter it is just deep in mud.  

Not everything is in black and white.


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## ester (3 May 2016)

I'm not working off what YOs have tried to flog me?! I'm working off people I know at various yards telling me what they have 

One good friend has good grazing, indoor and outdoor schools, all mod cons, long farm ride with gallop hill etc etc and I do wonder why I decided not to go to that one especially when there is driving rain/I am walking down the road to our extra grazing.
Then I got to meet her for event grooms duties and remember that the yard is busy (about 50 boxes)- enough to wire a welshie and all turnout is individual.


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## FfionWinnie (3 May 2016)

You have chosen as is usual for you I've noticed, to do the weeping wailing poor bullied me response, rather than take a step back and think perhaps the people on this thread know far more than you (or I) about horses and soundness.  AA told you about a horse she bought and how she had to return it to a far more natural life to ensure long term soundness.  AA clearly knows a lot more about horses than most people on this forum. 

At no time have I said I know it all and at no time have I belittled or mocked or done anything else you've accused me of. 

I have 6 equines living out 24/7 often in horrible mud in the winter and rarely worked in a school. It would seem clear to me, the fact that my horses are all sound, do not often run about and when they do, do not injure themselves and never have any field injuries, are never fat, do not have mud fever or many of the other maladies people seem to struggle with could point to the fact that living out with adlib hay and lots of hacking is a really healthy way to keep a horse. 

You can argue til you are blue in the face about this and that won't change the fact that this theory of mine and many others, is scientifically proven. 

As for your weight, I have absolutely no idea what you weigh and as someone who has struggled with my weight my entire adult life I can assure you that your claim I am being nasty to you about it is ludicrous. I've lost 5 stones to be able to ride the horses I want to ride and so they can carry me easily. It wasn't easy, it's still not easy but ultimately if that is what it takes that is what I will do.


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## applecart14 (3 May 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			You have chosen as is usual for you I've noticed, to do the weeping wailing poor bullied me response, rather than take a step back and think perhaps the people on this thread know far more than you (or I) about horses and soundness.  AA told you about a horse she bought and how she had to return it to a far more natural life to ensure long term soundness.  AA clearly knows a lot more about horses than most people on this forum. 

At no time have I said I know it all and at no time have I belittled or mocked or done anything else you've accused me of. 

I have 6 equines living out 24/7 often in horrible mud in the winter and rarely worked in a school. It would seem clear to me, the fact that my horses are all sound, do not often run about and when they do, do not injure themselves and never have any field injuries, are never fat, do not have mud fever or many of the other maladies people seem to struggle with could point to the fact that living out with adlib hay and lots of hacking is a really healthy way to keep a horse. 

You can argue til you are blue in the face about this and that won't change the fact that this theory of mine and many others, is a scientifically proven. 

As for your weight, I have absolutely no idea what you weigh and as someone who has struggled with my weight my entire adult life I can assure you that your claim I am being nasty to you about it is ludicrous. I've lost 5 stones to be able to ride the horses I want to ride and so they can carry me easily. It wasn't easy, it's still not easy but ultimately if that is what it takes that is what I will do.
		
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Good for you.     Well done.

I have more important things going on in my life.  You can argue till you are blue in the face but it doesn't alter the fact that what you keep going on about is nothing to do with my original post whatsoever.


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## ester (3 May 2016)

AA also provided photographic evidence that a horse doesn't have to look like it has cushings on AC's other thread. I think I might have to ask if I can borrow those in future.


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## Tiddlypom (3 May 2016)

OP, quite separately from the possibility of your horse injuring himself on first turnout on grass, you seem to be ignoring the many folk who have advised you test him for Cushing's. 

https://forums-secure.horseandhound...ergy-any-feed-experts&p=13238587#post13238587

AA also gave a vivid first hand account of what can happen on post #42 of this thread.

You seem insistent on 'seeing how he goes' rather then getting him tested now, despite much advice on how risky a plan that is. You insist that he gets all the vet care he needs, whilst stating that you can't afford the Cushing's test until you have paid off your current vet bill. The Cushing's test is very cheap in the overall package of horse ownership, and a lot cheaper than a big vets bill ending up with a dead horse.

I shall now bow out from this thread.


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## applecart14 (3 May 2016)

Tiddlypom said:



			OP, quite separately from the possibility of your horse injuring himself on first turnout on grass, you seem to be ignoring the many folk who have advised you test him for Cushing's. 

https://forums-secure.horseandhound...ergy-any-feed-experts&p=13238587#post13238587

AA also gave a vivid first hand account of what can happen on post #42 of this thread.

You seem insistent on 'seeing how he goes' rather then getting him tested now, despite much advice on how risky a plan that is. You insist that he gets all the vet care he needs, whilst stating that you can't afford the Cushing's test until you have paid off your current vet bill. The Cushing's test is very cheap in the overall package of horse ownership, and a lot cheaper than a big vets bill ending up with a dead horse.

I shall now bow out from this thread.
		
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Right ho.  He has also got ulcers, kissing spine, sacroiliac disease, teeth problems and is in terrible pain according to the people on this forum. Deary me.   Its a wonder there is any body part left to criticize or second guess.


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## ester (3 May 2016)

It does always seem to be the case that AC14 always gets answers she doesn't want, although I can never work out what she does want people to say other than poor you, you try so hard, especially when in this instance much of the way the horse will be turned out will be determined by the yard (when, size of paddock etc so only limited input is possible anyway).

In that instance because she was asking about feeding not cushings. Obviously people with other experiences know that some things can be indicative of stuff going on- which is sort of what I mean by people taking a holistic view. It isn't just AC's posts it happens all the time with the forum that people go this may seem unrelated have you thought of X. I can think of several horses off hand that have had their cushings tests only because it has been flagged up as a possibility on here and I don't see then why going slightly off piste with an answer is a bad thing especially with something that can have such far reaching ramifications but fly under the radar for quite some time. I think it must be quite disheartening for the likes of AA to go through her story with pics to just be shrugged off.


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## Tiarella (3 May 2016)

Just for the record, I'm at a yard in Solihull with...all year turn out incl 24/7, individual or herd with lush grass or minimum grass depending on horse, huge stables, choice of bedding, lovely arena surface, 100+ acres to ride round, great road hacking, places to park your lorry...the list goes on...£35pw and charged on top for extras....there's a 3 year waiting list though. 

My opinion on turning him out? Just chuck him out and let him get on with it! Horses can injure themselves in the weirdest ways anyway so no point worrying over it


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## ester (3 May 2016)

Are you sure you aren't in some sort of parallel universe?


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## Tiarella (3 May 2016)

ester said:



			Are you sure you aren't in some sort of parallel universe? 

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quite possibly &#128513; Or just have a YO that understands horses needs?


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## AdorableAlice (3 May 2016)

ester said:



			. I think it must be quite disheartening for the likes of AA to go through her story with pics to just be shrugged off.
		
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No, not at all.  it is a forum, other people will have learnt something from my experience.  I am just fortunate to have been in horses for so long that I have seen quite a lot.  There is plenty to learn from the forum, some threads and questions are really interesting.  If you keep horses you will never stop learning, I certainly don't even with my motley crew of misfits.  I am also lucky to have some very experienced people willing to help me too.

Horses will always surprise you, not necessarily in a good way either.  Just a few weeks ago my fit cob had lami, I could not believe it.  The big lad coming back with a positive cushing test, I remember listening to the vet telling me and thinking - only old ponies get that surely ?, not strapping great big blood horses.  Live and learn.  When you decide to stop learning is when to worry and that covers any subject not just horses.


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## AdorableAlice (3 May 2016)

Tiarella said:



			quite possibly &#55357;&#56833; Or just have a YO that understands horses needs?
		
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Is that the same yard that Ted The Twit does his baby dressage tests at in Lapworth by any chance.


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## tallyho! (3 May 2016)

I know I'm being lazy but I want to change horsekeeping!

What you describe is normal for horses on livery, you would never keep a zoo animal like that!

Think about it. Move if you have to. 

I just think horsekeeping/livery HAS to change.


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## AdorableAlice (3 May 2016)

tallyho! said:



			I know I'm being lazy but I want to change horsekeeping!

What you describe is normal for horses on livery, you would never keep a zoo animal like that!

Think about it. Move if you have to. 

I just think horsekeeping/livery HAS to change.
		
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To what ?, what would be your ideal.  I know what mine is, but lets hear others ideals.


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## Regandal (3 May 2016)

I am very lucky.  The yard my horses are on has ample grazing, running to too much in the summer.  The only thing we can't do is put up field shelters, although some of the fields have natural shelter.  24/7 turnout if wanted.  My 2 live out as much as possible.
I opted for 2 stables that no-one else wanted, as they are an old barn/byre split into 2, with a metal half door.  There is a small grass 'pen' in front of the stable which can be used for turnout if weather is foul or horse coming off box rest.  

Downside?  Our school is grass, only really useable in summer.  A compromise I am happy to make, as the hacking is great.   It's the best I can do for my horses in the local area.


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## Dave's Mam (3 May 2016)

I am actually very taken aback in what folk are charged / what they get for their money.  I rent a stable & a paddock, bedding is free if I need it & a huge bale of hay is £30.  It costs me £15 a week.  Now I get no assistance except if other liveries help out, but hundreds of pounds a week for no turnout & arsey yardies sounds like hell.


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## Leo Walker (3 May 2016)

ester said:



			Are you sure you aren't in some sort of parallel universe? 

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Tiarella said:



			quite possibly &#128513; Or just have a YO that understands horses needs?
		
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I'm at a yard now where the YO understands horses needs and has gone completely out of her way to accommodate me and my sadly, fat pony. I found her because the yard he was on wasn't suitable for him so I got off my bum and found another one. There are lots of yards out there, a lot dont advertise and cant be seen when your passing etc. Current yard will be muddy in winter, but I have a young sound horse and the most important thing for me is limited grass and lots of turn out. Hard to find! But find it I did because I looked for it. I trawled Facebook/Preloved/the internet in general. I spent about 20 hours one week driving round and knocking on peoples doors. I also asked every horsey person I know, and my physio put me onto this yard. Livery yards are all about compromise, but its the owner who has to make the compromises not the horses. 

In Applecarts situation I could point you to 4 or 5 yards locally that would suit turnout and mud wise. They might not have an amazing school, or the hacking might be limited, or you might have to travel further or through the town to get there, or pay more for assistance. But they are there if you look for them  

I actually found it much, much harder to find somewhere suitable for a good doer than I would have found it to find somewhere with good turnout, and a reasonable school and hacking. And I was doing all of this as an emergency as I had to move my boy ASAP as he wasn't coping where he was. 

I think people can get hung up on the things that suit them, like a flood lit school or good storage or being local etc. Those things dont matter to the horse, but it can be hard for owners to see that. I'm lucky in a way as I adore my boy and I just like having him, riding isnt the be all and end all for me. I do appreciate that it is for some people, and thats ok. So long as you arent putting your riding above the horses well being


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## Tiarella (4 May 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Is that the same yard that Ted The Twit does his baby dressage tests at in Lapworth by any chance.
		
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No, I'm 10 minutes away from there, but I do know who you're on about


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## tallyho! (4 May 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			To what ?, what would be your ideal.  I know what mine is, but lets hear others ideals.
		
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Well I think bigger stables IF they have to be stabled. I think 12x12 is small - I know mine is. Theres enough room to turn and lay down but is it enough? 
- my ideal would be horses kept in larger barns where they can have company and can groom and socialise.

Also I think larger acreage should be afforded and less horses kept if there is no turnout. I think little solitary paddocks are damaging.
- my ideal would be herd turnout all year round in enriched paddocks with trees and herbs grown as part of the forage - hardcore/sand track systems are a really good idea in winter to avoid the mud issue.

Of course, I know there are limitations and what I describe will be ridiculous to some but I have seen it done and the horses are all calm and sociable and there haven't been any incidents with injuries - in fact the owners report less vet call outs.


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## Bojingles (4 May 2016)

Just as an aside, until Jan of this year I was at a yard with no winter turnout. It was my first winter at the yard and I left as soon as I could. For me, it was as much the mental effects on the horses as the physical. Perfectly good-natured horses because aggressive, normally chilled-out souls started weaving, kicking their doors, the list goes on. My two appeared to be coping well but I will not keep horses under those conditions. No movement? No grooming or socialising? I worked mine every day but I felt every day how wrong it was. And then, in a bonkers twist, the grass was so good by the time they finally get turned out that half of them have to wear grazing muzzles!!


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## Shadowdancing (4 May 2016)

Bojingles said:



			Just as an aside, until Jan of this year I was at a yard with no winter turnout. It was my first winter at the yard and I left as soon as I could. For me, it was as much the mental effects on the horses as the physical. Perfectly good-natured horses because aggressive, normally chilled-out souls started weaving, kicking their doors, the list goes on. My two appeared to be coping well but I will not keep horses under those conditions. No movement? No grooming or socialising? I worked mine every day but I felt every day how wrong it was. And then, in a bonkers twist, the grass was so good by the time they finally get turned out that half of them have to wear grazing muzzles!!
		
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There's a rumour our yard may stop turn out in winter this year... if it happens, I'll be gone. My horse coped quite well with short periods being kept in but I was exhausted riding and lunging twice a day to keep her exercised, and it's not just that, as you say, it's being able to 'talk' to her friends! I don't care how far I have to go. It's not something I'm prepared to inflict on her. Inflict being the right word to my mind, it's no way for them to live.


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## gunnergundog (4 May 2016)

OK, so everyone has had their say, so now why not turn things around and try and HELP the OP in a practical way ?  

A number of people have mentioned or insinuated that they know of yards or could find yards better than that the OP is on, so come on, I challenge you, list them!  People on here are great at sleuthing out trolls so lets sleuth out some new yards for her , eh?  

Make it easy for the OP who has obviously got a lot going on in life - you should be able to deduce her requirements from the various posts above (ie environs of Solihull, 25 mins drive from centre, assisted/part livery, reasonable cost, good surface and hacking) then  you can add on the horses requirements as you have discussed above - oh, and reasonable availability too!  (No three year waiting lists!)

Will be interested to see what is proposed.


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## applecart14 (4 May 2016)

gunnergundog said:



			OK, so everyone has had their say, so now why not turn things around and try and HELP the OP in a practical way ?  

A number of people have mentioned or insinuated that they know of yards or could find yards better than that the OP is on, so come on, I challenge you, list them!  People on here are great at sleuthing out trolls so lets sleuth out some new yards for her , eh?  

Make it easy for the OP who has obviously got a lot going on in life - you should be able to deduce her requirements from the various posts above (ie environs of Solihull, 25 mins drive from centre, assisted/part livery, reasonable cost, good surface and hacking) then  you can add on the horses requirements as you have discussed above - oh, and reasonable availability too!  (No three year waiting lists!)

Will be interested to see what is proposed.
		
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I've sent you a long PM but not sure you have received it, its not showing in my sent items.


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## Red-1 (4 May 2016)

applecart14 said:



			I've sent you a long PM but not sure you have received it, its not showing in my sent items.
		
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If you send a PM that is too long the system eats it :-(


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## Red-1 (4 May 2016)

gunnergundog said:



			OK, so everyone has had their say, so now why not turn things around and try and HELP the OP in a practical way ?  

A number of people have mentioned or insinuated that they know of yards or could find yards better than that the OP is on, so come on, I challenge you, list them!  People on here are great at sleuthing out trolls so lets sleuth out some new yards for her , eh?  

Make it easy for the OP who has obviously got a lot going on in life - you should be able to deduce her requirements from the various posts above (ie environs of Solihull, 25 mins drive from centre, assisted/part livery, reasonable cost, good surface and hacking) then  you can add on the horses requirements as you have discussed above - oh, and reasonable availability too!  (No three year waiting lists!)

Will be interested to see what is proposed.
		
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I don't know the area personally, but there was a similar thread on here... http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?650976-Livery-yards-Solihull-area


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## applecart14 (4 May 2016)

Red-1 said:



			If you send a PM that is too long the system eats it :-(
		
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That's what's happened.


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## xspiralx (4 May 2016)

Well this is a rather nasty thread!

Granted OP doesn't help herself, but I think anyone on this forum would get a bit hacked off with tens of sanctimonious posts criticising their horse care and management. Particularly when completely unasked for!

In the real world, very many people have to make compromises with their horse care. I know of very very few yards around where I am that offer 24/7 turnout in winter - most are on half a day, and plenty don't turn out in the fields at all when it's very wet. Is it ideal? No. But I know a great many horses that thrive in routines like that - with owners and yard owners that care deeply about the welfare and happiness of their horses.

Sometimes fixing one issue can cause another. Yes, 24/7 turnout is better for soft tissue strength, but there are other factors to consider too. Walking over poached ground (I haven't seen a field this winter in this area that wasn't deep, wet and slippery even if not muddy) or slipping can risk strains and injuries - particularly if you have a horse that likes to hoon about. Standing on wet ground can cause an increased risk of abscesses and foot problems in horses that are prone to that. 

You have to weigh up the pros and cons of all the options, knowing your individual horse, and try to make a decision that will be the best one for them. It is clear to me that the OP adores her horse and has done what she feels is right for him.


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## ester (4 May 2016)

Everyone makes compromises, 
they usually accept they are compromises though rather than insist they are doing no harm despite the huge weight of scientific evidence saying otherwise.
They also consider that if they are making regular forum posts about injuries to their horse that maybe something more global isn't working.
I don't doubt that the OP adores her horse and she regularly tells us how much the vet bills are but then I wonder if that is money spent in the right places, prevention better than cure and all that.


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## Frumpoon (4 May 2016)

Ooooh I'm in this area, I'd really appreciate being able to avoid the pack of dogs place, where is this?


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## xspiralx (4 May 2016)

ester said:



			Everyone makes compromises, 
they usually accept they are compromises though rather than insist they are doing no harm despite the huge weight of scientific evidence saying otherwise.
They also consider that if they are making regular forum posts about injuries to their horse that maybe something more global isn't working.
I don't doubt that the OP adores her horse and she regularly tells us how much the vet bills are but then I wonder if that is money spent in the right places, prevention better than cure and all that.
		
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And I'd say you've made that point quite clearly now, a number of times.

So maybe it's time to give it a rest now instead of continuing to harangue her about it?


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## ester (4 May 2016)

I was replying to your points, not the OP who will do what she likes, as always and as is her right at horse owner and we will all wonder what the mythical correct answer to the question was again.


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## sjp1 (4 May 2016)

Well OP, all I can say is that ours have gone out for a few hours today after having been in corrals over winter.  Suited me absolutely fine, mine had a tendon issue when on a different yard out in fields 24/7, was brought back into work slowly after 6 months rest, went through a post and rail fence at new yard at the end of July last year, after having been diagnosed with a suspensory injury a month prior to that.  He was out in the field for all of the injuries.

Ours have been in corrals with adlib hay and company all day since October last year.  I have brought him back into work slowly during February.

He has been fine.

Horses in my opinion need company and a hooley, whether that is in a corral with hay or out in a field hock deep in mud.  Obviously any change has to be managed slowly - ours went out today, cantered around twice and then got their heads down.  

I was dubious about this regime when I moved yards, but I needed a contained area for my horse at the time.

There are a lot of different systems that work - don't knock it til you try it is what I say!


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## applecart14 (6 May 2016)

sjp1 said:



			Well OP, all I can say is that ours have gone out for a few hours today after having been in corrals over winter.  Suited me absolutely fine, mine had a tendon issue when on a different yard out in fields 24/7, was brought back into work slowly after 6 months rest, went through a post and rail fence at new yard at the end of July last year, after having been diagnosed with a suspensory injury a month prior to that.  He was out in the field for all of the injuries.

Ours have been in corrals with adlib hay and company all day since October last year.  I have brought him back into work slowly during February.

He has been fine.

Horses in my opinion need company and a hooley, whether that is in a corral with hay or out in a field hock deep in mud.  Obviously any change has to be managed slowly - ours went out today, cantered around twice and then got their heads down.  

I was dubious about this regime when I moved yards, but I needed a contained area for my horse at the time.

There are a lot of different systems that work - don't knock it til you try it is what I say!
		
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Thanks.  The vet rang me yesterday to say that the videos I had emailed him of my horses progress he was delighted with and that I can move up a gear and start cantering him again albeit it to start with straight lines, different surfaces, as previous injuries rehab programs which I used the previous twice.  He is as always amazed at my horses speed of recovery from injury, citing that most horses would still be on box rest at this stage and to take it easy. Whilst I am not blowing my own trumpet, I think there is a lot to be said for early intervention with ice therapy and a nice flat even surface for limited turnout which he has had and I could never fault the yard for the help they have given me with this.  I have upped the hacking over the last month or so, as during the last week have undertaken two 1.5 hour hacks and two one hour hacks with ménage riding on the other days, probably doing between 6 - 8 miles each time.

 He agreed that it would be fine to take him on the fun ride I have planned at the weekend (obviously most of it will be at walk with a little trot) but it will be nice to have a change and I think the fields have dried up sufficiently to allow us to do this.

As I was curious, I asked him what were the chances were of him being able to go out 365 days a year with the typical winter turnout that we have here in the Midlands and he has said surprisingly that he feels he will be able to cope with his problems and that it won't be of any detriment to him, so should I decide to move at leas this is a viable option for him and me but obviously this will be my decision at the end of the day as this is a huge thing to undertake and I had planned on this being Bailey's forever home.

I am glad your horse is recovering well.  At the time of moving the yard suited my horse because of his injury although I had not known that 'all year turnout' was in fact seven or eight months sandpit and four or five months field.  As I say I cannot fault the yard or the YO as their fields are peat based, so can be very wet and is nothing at all to do with mismanagement which has been stated before on this thread. It is what it is and last night, another hack around the lanes for an hour - with a total of four cars passing me - not many can boast of being this lucky with their hacking!


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## Michen (6 May 2016)

Taking a rehabbing horse on a fun ride!? I hope he is immaculately behaved on them :O Good luck with whatever you decide re yard, it's a nightmare trying to find one that ticks all the boxes so you can only do your best. 



applecart14 said:



			Thanks.  The vet rang me yesterday to say that the videos I had emailed him of my horses progress he was delighted with and that I can move up a gear and start cantering him again albeit it to start with straight lines, different surfaces, as previous injuries rehab programs which I used the previous twice.  He is as always amazed at my horses speed of recovery from injury, citing that most horses would still be on box rest at this stage and to take it easy. Whilst I am not blowing my own trumpet, I think there is a lot to be said for early intervention with ice therapy and a nice flat even surface for limited turnout which he has had and I could never fault the yard for the help they have given me with this.  I have upped the hacking over the last month or so, as during the last week have undertaken two 1.5 hour hacks and two one hour hacks with ménage riding on the other days, probably doing between 6 - 8 miles each time.

 He agreed that it would be fine to take him on the fun ride I have planned at the weekend (obviously most of it will be at walk with a little trot) but it will be nice to have a change and I think the fields have dried up sufficiently to allow us to do this.

As I was curious, I asked him what were the chances were of him being able to go out 365 days a year with the typical winter turnout that we have here in the Midlands and he has said surprisingly that he feels he will be able to cope with his problems and that it won't be of any detriment to him, so should I decide to move at leas this is a viable option for him and me but obviously this will be my decision at the end of the day as this is a huge thing to undertake and I had planned on this being Bailey's forever home.

I am glad your horse is recovering well.  At the time of moving the yard suited my horse because of his injury although I had not known that 'all year turnout' was in fact seven or eight months sandpit and four or five months field.  As I say I cannot fault the yard or the YO as their fields are peat based, so can be very wet and is nothing at all to do with mismanagement which has been stated before on this thread. It is what it is and last night, another hack around the lanes for an hour - with a total of four cars passing me - not many can boast of being this lucky with their hacking!
		
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## applecart14 (6 May 2016)

Michen said:



			Taking a rehabbing horse on a fun ride!? I hope he is immaculately behaved on them :O Good luck with whatever you decide re yard, it's a nightmare trying to find one that ticks all the boxes so you can only do your best.
		
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Yes he is fine, he always behaves on fun rides, he gets a little excitable at times, but nothing uncontrollable! In the past we have had a group of riders (with my permission) canter past us and he happily stood still whilst they did, before I let him canter after them at a distance.  The last ride I went on a ride we had a steam train go past us when we were on a track below the line, and it let of its horn as it was parallel to us. The horses in front and behind him were going mental and spinning like tops, he just had a casual look and stood his ground, bless him.  One of the riders commented on how good he was at the time - I replied "he's good at most things, but show him a dock leaf and he falls apart" lol. I call it his 'big leaf phobia', he hates big dock leaves!!! 

Some of the rides we have done on previous years were during his rehab phase. Its nice to do something a bit different, I take a picnic, my other half comes with me with the dog and meets us half a mile before the end and then I untack him, wash him down and let him have a bit of a graze.


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## ester (6 May 2016)

Yet recently you were posting about your dreadful hacking experiences.
For me the risk of him putting extra pressure on it would be far too high, a little excitable at times is not good when rehabbing.
I'm glad he said he would be good to go out longer term .


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## TheSylv007 (6 May 2016)

ester said:



			Yet recently you were posting about your dreadful hacking experiences.
For me the risk of him putting extra pressure on it would be far too high, a little excitable at times is not good when rehabbing.
I'm glad he said he would be good to go out longer term .
		
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I thought it was a single one-off bad hacking experience caused by an out of the ordinary settlement of caravans?


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## JFTDWS (6 May 2016)

TheSylv007 said:



			I thought it was a single one-off bad hacking experience caused by an out of the ordinary settlement of caravans?
		
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Wasn't there a prior thread about the OP being scared of being ditched by his spookiness?  

I'm not sure I'd be fun riding a rehab horse either, and at least one of mine is saintly on fun rides.  It's quite a risk, in my book.


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## applecart14 (6 May 2016)

TheSylv007 said:



			I thought it was a single one-off bad hacking experience caused by an out of the ordinary settlement of caravans?
		
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Yes you are correct it was a one off! 

 On Wednesday I decided to tackle the bridle path again as I didn't want it to be a defining thing that he would remember for ever.  This time I gave him a net of hay in the stable after I had tacked him up, and let him have a mouthful (so he would be keen to come back to it) and set off - this time going down the hill so the gypsy site was on our left and he was going in the direction of home. 

 Although he was on his toes he took it in his stride, had a good gawp but decided the hay net on offer when he got home was worth it! 
Next time we will go past it the other way but I will take my partner for back up and we WILL get there I am determined.


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## applecart14 (6 May 2016)

JFTD said:



			Wasn't there a prior thread about the OP being scared of being ditched by his spookiness?  

I'm not sure I'd be fun riding a rehab horse either, and at least one of mine is saintly on fun rides.  It's quite a risk, in my book.
		
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Strange though it might seem, I think I am best qualified to comment on my horses ability to both hack out and go on fun rides, not someone that has never met me, or my horse and has never sat on him.   He has always been a spooky horse so on the advice on this forum I put him on a fortnights bute trial (as he was supposedly 'spooking because he was in pain') and got his eyes/teeth/back/leg checked.  As suspected the bute trial didn't make a blind bit of difference to the spooking (the cessation of the barley water did though) and his leg, teeth, eyes, back were perfectly fine.

I am quite aware of the dangers of fun rides, you are speaking to someone who sadly lost her horse of a lifetime, three weeks after a nasty accident on a fun ride some 19 years ago.  It took me a long, long time to feel confident on rides, but if we go through life with 'what if's' we would do nothing with our horses.  The vet says its okay, in my opinion, there is no more danger of him hurting his leg on a fun ride than on a long hack down the bridle paths and lanes. I have always gone on my own, preferring to go at my own pace and I never hammer him around anywhere.

What does make me feel rather apprehensive and anxious, are people on this forum continually criticising me for every comment I make.


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## Wagtail (6 May 2016)

Applecart, you do not have to justify yourself to people on here. Your horse, your business. We all do things differently.


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## applecart14 (6 May 2016)

Wagtail said:



			Applecart, you do not have to justify yourself to people on here. Your horse, your business. We all do things differently.
		
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Seems like not everyone would agree with those sentiments Wagtail.

I came on here wanting advice on turnout after five months away from grass.


I have been criticized about the way my horse is kept in respect of the sandpit.

I have been told that my yard owner doesn't know how to manage her grazing. 

I have been told that I should have had my horse tested for cushings.

I have been told that I am talking rubbish about the state of fields.

I have been criticized for taking my horse on a fun ride.

I have also been told I am 'bu**erring through blindly' and there was a comparison with me and  'anyone with half a brain cell'

Is there any other topic that I haven't mentioned that someone would like to have a dig at me for whilst we are totally off subject again?


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## joulsey (6 May 2016)

Op I think if you was to say the grass is green, people on here would tell you you are wrong.

I have agreed and disagreed with certain things on here, but you know your horse well enough to know if its suitable to go on the fun ride or not. Enjoy!


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## applecart14 (6 May 2016)

joulsey said:



			Op I think if you was to say the grass is green, people on here would tell you you are wrong.

I have agreed and disagreed with certain things on here, but you know your horse well enough to know if its suitable to go on the fun ride or not. Enjoy!
		
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Thanks I intend to.  And if those that criticize me and belittle me constantly on this forum are attending the same ride, do feel free to come over and tell me to my face what you are telling me on here, whilst hiding behind your user name.  Maybe we can sit down with a coffee and discuss nicely


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## ester (6 May 2016)

People can criticize, you won't ever be able to stop them doing so, it doesn't mean you have to listen to them or do anything different though. 
Sadly I am a bit far from solihull, it would be rather an extended hack, although I guess closer than JFTD and ffionwinnie!

Re the arguing the grass is green, I argue a lot of things but rarely without some evidence to back it up just because that is how I tick. 
Reading things that are blatantly incorrect/go against the 'rules' trigger me quite badly but I am only just working that out and managing it is a work in progress


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## JFTDWS (6 May 2016)

ester said:



			Sadly I am a bit far from solihull, it would be rather an extended hack, although I guess closer than JFTD and ffionwinnie!
		
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Likewise.  And I have plans.  I'm not hiding behind any username though - I am very easily identifiable and traceable on here and into real life.  

I think we've all had our share of criticism on here.  You have to learn what to listen to now, what to store for future reference and what to dismiss as irrelevant.  Or stop posting - because you can't control how people will respond to you.


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## Neversaydie (6 May 2016)

Observed a few threads like this today, one person being lambasted, OP he is your horse and it is you who will have to deal with the consequences of anything he may do whilst you have him on a fun ride. I personally wouldn't take the horse, especially after a winter of no turnout. People will say what they think and really there are no irrelevant opinions or wrong answers, we all do what we think is best after all


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## _HP_ (6 May 2016)

It's a real shame that you consider being advised to ask your vet about Cushings, a negative.
Don't allow your feelings of being picked on, let you ignore good advice


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## hypopit (6 May 2016)

I couldn't be assed trawling through all these posts. the ones having a go, mainly by OLD timers who have not walked in this particular persons shoes, with her horse on her land(rented or otherwise)..usual case with forums!!! But, if you had lived on a Welsh Mountain where from the 6th of November last year it had rained EVERY day and MOST night , and you had 5 horses on BEDROCK and CLAY...but 19 acres for said five horses...you (MAY) (POSSIBLY) understand why some people have to keep their horses in for various reasons (which I can't be assed going in to) from time to time in winter....Oh, and they are all very sensible and well adjusted ...Oooo horrors of horrors! Try and ignore all the smug pictures Applecart.
As I said Applecart ,I could not be assed reading all that dross. You do what you do, because you have to. I bet, if half the people criticising you  saw the state of the meat horses dumped up by me every winter they would think your horse was a prize pampered pony. Like I said.... OLD. Your horse sounds like he is well loved and cared for. Hope it works out OK for you both, I'm sure it will.


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## ester (6 May 2016)

It isn't the sensible/well adjusted situation that is being discussed though, it is the effect on soft tissue of a lack of movement. 
Now that movement can be replaced by all weather turnout but not for an hour a day. 
Applecart is also not on a welsh mountain. 
Everything is relative, no one is posting asking for opinions on what to do with their dumped meat horses and I think it quite condescending that those commenting have no knowledge of what goes on in the larger equine world. However it doesn't mean that we aren't all still learning and able to make improvements (however small) on how we keep our own beasts. 

If you had to have walked in a persons shoes with their horse in every scenario 1) there would be no point in forums even existing, 2) no one would ever learn anything new until they found themselves in that situation.


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## hypopit (6 May 2016)

Single are you ester?


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## ester (6 May 2016)

Sorry?! What sort of relevant, adult question is that! 
I'm a pedantic scientist with an unhealthy interest in horse's hooves currently but I don't see how that is relevant either.


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## JFTDWS (6 May 2016)

hypopit said:



			Single are you ester?
		
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No she's in a LTR with me.


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## hypopit (6 May 2016)

Figures.


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## ester (6 May 2016)

JFTD said:



			No she's in a LTR with me.
		
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Ha, ****** I forgot, does that mean I have to cancel my hot wiltshire date tomorrow then or? can we be on a break?


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## JFTDWS (6 May 2016)

ester said:



			Ha, ****** I forgot, does that mean I have to cancel my hot wiltshire date tomorrow then or? can we be on a break?
		
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I'm not the jealous type.  I can share


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## FfionWinnie (6 May 2016)

Seems you have got Ester mixed up with someone else.


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## ester (6 May 2016)

Right, obviously you have quality peer reviewed statistical evidence for this information. 

You're a right charmer aren't you, which stone did you crawl out from?

Sorry JFTD turns out I am older than you thought too, and likely fatter (you know I know most things so we can get over that bit at least) will you still have me?


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## hypopit (6 May 2016)

To be honest Ffion most people merge into one on this thread....unfortunately. Little help to anyone, especially the OP.


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## hypopit (6 May 2016)

The peer reviewed stone ester.


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## Leo Walker (6 May 2016)

hypopit said:



			Pedantic Scientist ?? More like an annoying fat know-it-all old trout. Sorry AC I just had to say it.
		
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Nothing like resorting to personal insults when you have nothing useful to add!


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## ester (6 May 2016)

I thought you said you hadn't trawled through all the posts so how would you know, or know what advice/suggestions had been suggested to the OP then?


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## ester (6 May 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			Nothing like resorting to personal insults when you have nothing useful to add!
		
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They only really work if they are true though, I will let you know if I find some gillyweed


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## FfionWinnie (6 May 2016)

hypopit said:



			To be honest Ffion most people merge into one on this thread....unfortunately. Little help to anyone, especially the OP.
		
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You are standing out in a class all of your own. 

I think if you will read one of AC14's latest posts you will see she has now had the information from her vet that the horse could live out 24/7 without its legs falling off. This is good news, it could help the horse live a sounder life.  That seems like a positive result to me.


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## JFTDWS (6 May 2016)

ester said:



			Right, obviously you have quality peer reviewed statistical evidence for this information. 

You're a right charmer aren't you, which stone did you crawl out from?

Sorry JFTD turns out I am older than you thought too, and likely fatter (you know I know most things so we can get over that bit at least) will you still have me?
		
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Age and weight I can get over.  The trout bit is concerning.  Does this mean our relationship will have to be conducted in a river?  I like water, but I don't have gills...

I do wonder how insulting you is helpful to the OP though.  I suspect hypopit misspelled their name when they signed up


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## hypopit (6 May 2016)

I only needed to read your fascinating (peer reviewed) posts ester to know you are single.


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## JFTDWS (6 May 2016)

Is single an insult too now?

'cos last time I checked, women are allowed to be independent people who aren't defined in their success by their marital status.  This is 2016, not 1816, y'know


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## Mongoose11 (6 May 2016)

JFTD said:



			No she's in a LTR with me.
		
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This is the only post on this thread that has moved me to comment. 

I'm devastated.


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## JFTDWS (6 May 2016)

Mongoose11 said:



			This is the only post on this thread that has moved me to comment. 

I'm devastated.
		
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It's an open relationship.  Plenty of me to go round 

(literally :eek3: )


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## Mongoose11 (6 May 2016)

JFTD said:



			It's an open relationship.  Plenty of me to go round 

(literally :eek3: )
		
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Both of these things please me greatly.


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## Leo Walker (6 May 2016)

Well if we are talking about how much of us is available to go around, then I could probably eat JFTD and it not make a noticeable difference to how much of me there is :lol: Any takers? :lol:


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## JFTDWS (6 May 2016)

To eat me?  :eek3:


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## Leo Walker (6 May 2016)

JFTD said:



			To eat me?  :eek3:
		
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Ha! I'd rather not, I'm on a diet which basically involves me eating nothing much at all, so anyone else is welcome to snack on you


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## Moomin1 (7 May 2016)

Whilst I've not always agreed with OP's approach to SOME things, I cannot help but cringe when I see EVERY thread of hers descend into the same childish bullying from so called 'intellectual' posters,  It really is sad.


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## jokadoka (7 May 2016)

Moomin1 said:



			Whilst I've not always agreed with OP's approach to SOME things, I cannot help but cringe when I see EVERY thread of hers descend into the same childish bullying from so called 'intellectual' posters,  It really is sad.
		
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Agreed


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## Pinkvboots (7 May 2016)

Moomin1 said:



			Whilst I've not always agreed with OP's approach to SOME things, I cannot help but cringe when I see EVERY thread of hers descend into the same childish bullying from so called 'intellectual' posters,  It really is sad.
		
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this thread certainly has taken a funny turn the last two pages are quite bizarre


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## ester (7 May 2016)

I mostly just get frustrated that applecart seems to skip over the more key points that seem blatantly obvious to everyone else.
I never did get an actual answer on her not believing that lack of movement can have a detrimental effect on soft tissues which really was the key point people were trying to make given the horse's history of injury. 

I also think it is pretty obvious to see who has been the most childish and bullying. I'm pretty unfailingly polite despite my frustrations and at least no one has had to ban me throughout the ridiculous amount of posts I have. 

I'm not sure I like so-called 'intellectual' . I am an intellectual, I rely on my intellect to be able to do life at all, I'd be completely stuffed without it. :eek3:

The last two pages are quite bizarre because someone with an alternative name decided that being single was an insult and that I was a know-it-all fat old trout while apologising to AC. It is pretty hard to bring it back up from that!


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## FfionWinnie (7 May 2016)

Only on HHO could being single and/or an intellectual be considered an insult.


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## xspiralx (7 May 2016)

ester said:



			I mostly just get frustrated that applecart seems to skip over the more key points that seem blatantly obvious to everyone else.
I never did get an actual answer on her not believing that lack of movement can have a detrimental effect on soft tissues which really was the key point people were trying to make given the horse's history of injury.
		
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I just don't understand what you get out of it though. If you find her so frustrating, why do you continue to post on her threads and try to force her into agreeing with you - you know already that she isn't going to listen.

There are many people on this forum and in real life whose approach I don't agree with. If asked for advice I would give it, but then it's up to the individual whether to take it or not - none of my business. I certainly wouldn't continue to bash them over the head with my unwanted advice, over and over again - particularly when it wasn't even asked for to begin with. That's when it starts to verge into bullying.

Agree or not with the OPs approach, she clearly cares a lot about her horse and looks after him well. There are many many people who abuse and neglect their animals - those would be the ones I would save my contempt for.


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## ester (7 May 2016)

Honestly, at times it isn't good for me, I don't get anything 'out of it' I guess when you always have the horse's best interests at heart and think even a small change might make a big difference (which is why you see me hanging out with their feet so much  ) it makes it even trickier.  I struggle if I don't think people have understood why I have said so tend to try and reiterate it in a different way which can make it seem like I am banging on about the same issue.  I am working on it but it has taken me a long time to work out quite what goes on. 
You know that 'wait a minute someone is wrong on the internet' meme, yeah that . and the more factual the actual answer the worse I am - I've had a few issues with people's inability to understand the highway code recently, when it is down there, in black and white. However this is only limited to the information I actually have or know to be correct, hence I wouldn't state the grass wasn't green, I might give you a more complex answer though .

Applecart frequently asks for advice and people always try to give it even though it is frequently turned down and if a more holistic view is taken that is always wrong. Even though I would have thought one could have predicted the response to declaring a rehabbing horse still in walk and trot was going on a fun ride) If people ask I will try and help from what I know, it is only because I like to try and help and I have made more friends than enemies that way. I have posted on her other threads on different topics without animosity. I certainly don't hold her in any sort of contempt.


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## Neversaydie (7 May 2016)

I too have noticed on here, as a lurker, that some posters do have a tendency to keep trying to get responses out of others for their own amusement or some sort of agenda, even if the poster they are targeting isn't responding or clearly not reading their posts and little digs. Why not just pop them on ignore instead of trying to use a perceived intellectual dominance to get them to respond in a negative way? Does it give some sort of satisfaction to have someone upset because you have tried to browbeat them over a post on a forum?

I enjoy the information this forum has at times and the way threads can hilariously turn off topic, but this type of baiting does waste what could be a good thread.


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## HashRouge (7 May 2016)

ester said:



			Honestly, at times it isn't good for me, I don't get anything 'out of it' I guess when you always have the horse's best interests at heart and think even a small change might make a big difference (which is why you see me hanging out with their feet so much  ) it makes it even trickier.  I struggle if I don't think people have understood why I have said so tend to try and reiterate it in a different way which can make it seem like I am banging on about the same issue.  I am working on it but it has taken me a long time to work out quite what goes on. 
You know that 'wait a minute someone is wrong on the internet' meme, yeah that . and the more factual the actual answer the worse I am - I've had a few issues with people's inability to understand the highway code recently, when it is down there, in black and white. However this is only limited to the information I actually have or know to be correct, hence I wouldn't state the grass wasn't green, I might give you a more complex answer though .

Applecart frequently asks for advice and people always try to give it even though it is frequently turned down and if a more holistic view is taken that is always wrong. Even though I would have thought one could have predicted the response to declaring a rehabbing horse still in walk and trot was going on a fun ride) If people ask I will try and help from what I know, it is only because I like to try and help and I have made more friends than enemies that way. I have posted on her other threads on different topics without animosity. I certainly don't hold her in any sort of contempt.
		
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But I think the point is that the advice she asked for at the start of this thread was very specific, yet most people didn't answer her question at all and just insulted the way she keeps her horse. For what it's worth, I agree with you completely regarding the best way to keep horses - I'd have a nervous breakdown if I had to keep my own mare in for 4 months. But I have also worked with competition horses who didn't get that much turnout over winter and, though it may not be ideal, I don't think it's quite the death sentence it has been made out to be on this thread (okay, I'm exaggerating, but you get my drift!).

Also, I can't help thinking your approach might be somewhat counter-productive...it's making AC feel like she has to defend the way she keeps her horse, rather than making her see your point of view.


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## ester (7 May 2016)

Yes I struggle a bit because as far as I am concerned we are all learning, I read as much/more than a type and we all know it is generally impossible to keep our horses quite the way we like but usually able to recognise the downfalls and compromises of each scenario. I guess it is was the lack of recognition that gets to me! That and the suggestion that everyone that turns out in winter does so into some mud pit. That is enough to get anyone's back up and a need to show how that isn't the case, cue pics! 

I have crap social communication skills in real life let alone behind a screen and come from a group of people who are inflicted with the ability to 'bang on a bit' about stuff no one else is interested in or cares about  as I said, working on it. I can look at it in reflection now and spot where I go wrong but at the time not so much!


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## Wagtail (7 May 2016)

Moomin1 said:



			Whilst I've not always agreed with OP's approach to SOME things, I cannot help but cringe when I see EVERY thread of hers descend into the same childish bullying from so called 'intellectual' posters,  It really is sad.
		
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This ^^


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## Wagtail (7 May 2016)

xspiralx said:



			I just don't understand what you get out of it though. If you find her so frustrating, why do you continue to post on her threads and try to force her into agreeing with you - you know already that she isn't going to listen.

There are many people on this forum and in real life whose approach I don't agree with. If asked for advice I would give it, but then it's up to the individual whether to take it or not - none of my business. I certainly wouldn't continue to bash them over the head with my unwanted advice, over and over again - particularly when it wasn't even asked for to begin with. That's when it starts to verge into bullying.

Agree or not with the OPs approach, she clearly cares a lot about her horse and looks after him well. There are many many people who abuse and neglect their animals - those would be the ones I would save my contempt for.
		
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Well said.


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## ester (7 May 2016)

Well I hope I have answered some of those points.
Though I still don't see what is wrong with being an intellectual, so-called or not!


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## JustKickOn (7 May 2016)

gunnergundog said:



			OK, so everyone has had their say, so now why not turn things around and try and HELP the OP in a practical way ?  

A number of people have mentioned or insinuated that they know of yards or could find yards better than that the OP is on, so come on, I challenge you, list them!  People on here are great at sleuthing out trolls so lets sleuth out some new yards for her , eh?  

Make it easy for the OP who has obviously got a lot going on in life - you should be able to deduce her requirements from the various posts above (ie environs of Solihull, 25 mins drive from centre, assisted/part livery, reasonable cost, good surface and hacking) then  you can add on the horses requirements as you have discussed above - oh, and reasonable availability too!  (No three year waiting lists!)

Will be interested to see what is proposed.
		
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Off the top of my head, 20-30 mins from Solihull are.. I will probably think of more if I did a quick Google search and thought a bit more about where friends keep theirs. 

Swallowfield Equestrian in Lapworth - their standard of care is impeccable! Brilliant arenas and I have always seen horses out there even in the winter time

Sovereign Horses in Claverdon - Jake is great and have heard wonderful things about them

CMC Equine in Chadwick End - Claire is full of knowledge and will do all she can to help. If Rachel and Mitch still worth there, they are super too. 

Jemma Bentley Dressage/ Wootton Hill Farm in Hill Wootton - Jemma is really lovely and does her best to accommodate individual horses needs. Fields rarely seem to get muddy. Indoor and outdoor arena plus a boundary ride bordering the river and good hacking routes

Meadow View Stables in Burton Green - fab hacking nearby on a bridle way, they have a lovely arena there with mirrors. No one on site though but have heard good things all the same 

Might be worth contact Sam Dewar or James McCullough too to see if they have space on their yards. 
Worth seeing if you can get hold of contact details for John Townsend in Claverdon if he is still there, Irish chap and really lovely, did have stables, arena and good hacking round the area.


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## TheSylv007 (7 May 2016)

Moomin1 said:



			Whilst I've not always agreed with OP's approach to SOME things, I cannot help but cringe when I see EVERY thread of hers descend into the same childish bullying from so called 'intellectual' posters,  It really is sad.
		
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Got to agree with this.  Some awful things have been said to the OP in other threads.  There are ways of making suggestions if you don't agree with someone without being glib, smug or rude.  For what it's worth I agree that you need to take a holistic view of your horse management but it's rare for everything to be spot on 100% of the time.  My yard has had very limited turnout for a few months with awful mud but I accept that there are always compromises.  It isn't easy to find the perfect set up and sometimes you have to make the best of what you have available.


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## Moomin1 (7 May 2016)

ester said:



			Well I hope I have answered some of those points.
Though I still don't see what is wrong with being an intellectual, so-called or not!
		
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In fairness Ester, it wasn't only you I meant.  There are certain posters (and I don't actually mean you here) that always have a good old laugh and muck about at the expense of the OP's feelings, whilst banding about their so called intellect at the same time.


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## tallyho! (7 May 2016)

Sorry AC... really did not mean to offend you at all, was actually criticising yards that insist on keeping too many horses with no T/O. 

Can't help as I don't know the area but really hope you find something.


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## JulesRules (8 May 2016)

Can't get on PM at the mo as phone isn't playing ball but there might be a space coming up on our yard which would be perfect for you I think. 

When I can get on PM I'll send over YO's number. I know she had a waiting list, but a space coming up is very rare and people's circumstances change so it could be right time, right place.

Worth a look/ call anyway


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## gunnergundog (8 May 2016)

gunnergundog said:



			OK, so everyone has had their say, so now why not turn things around and try and HELP the OP in a practical way ?  

A number of people have mentioned or insinuated that they know of yards or could find yards better than that the OP is on, so come on, I challenge you, list them!  People on here are great at sleuthing out trolls so lets sleuth out some new yards for her , eh?  

Make it easy for the OP who has obviously got a lot going on in life - you should be able to deduce her requirements from the various posts above (ie environs of Solihull, 25 mins drive from centre, assisted/part livery, reasonable cost, good surface and hacking) then  you can add on the horses requirements as you have discussed above - oh, and reasonable availability too!  (No three year waiting lists!)

Will be interested to see what is proposed.
		
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Just to acknowledge JulesRules, Justkickon and Red-1 who have risen to the challenge and posted some constructive suggestions for the OP - thank you!    Any more?


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## Frumpoon (8 May 2016)

JustKickOn said:



			Off the top of my head, 20-30 mins from Solihull are.. I will probably think of more if I did a quick Google search and thought a bit more about where friends keep theirs. 

Swallowfield Equestrian in Lapworth - their standard of care is impeccable! Brilliant arenas and I have always seen horses out there even in the winter time

Sovereign Horses in Claverdon - Jake is great and have heard wonderful things about them

CMC Equine in Chadwick End - Claire is full of knowledge and will do all she can to help. If Rachel and Mitch still worth there, they are super too. 

Jemma Bentley Dressage/ Wootton Hill Farm in Hill Wootton - Jemma is really lovely and does her best to accommodate individual horses needs. Fields rarely seem to get muddy. Indoor and outdoor arena plus a boundary ride bordering the river and good hacking routes

Meadow View Stables in Burton Green - fab hacking nearby on a bridle way, they have a lovely arena there with mirrors. No one on site though but have heard good things all the same 

Might be worth contact Sam Dewar or James McCullough too to see if they have space on their yards. 
Worth seeing if you can get hold of contact details for John Townsend in Claverdon if he is still there, Irish chap and really lovely, did have stables, arena and good hacking round the area.
		
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There are several in this list that don't do winter turnout despite what they may say


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## JustKickOn (8 May 2016)

Frumpoon said:



			There are several in this list that don't do winter turnout despite what they may say
		
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Well I definitely know Swallowfield do as I've been there often enough to see horses out in the fields in the winter. 

I know Jemma turns out whenever possible as I've been there at 7am rugging and putting horses out in the fields - sometimes if it's pouring or really bad they stay in, but will go out when possible at least for a few hours and go on the walker to stretch their legs. Plus they do have the grass livery out 24/7 option. 

Meadow View have only just done their first winter in business and horses have been out in the fields. 

Have been for lessons with Claire at CMC in the middle of winter to use their indoor arena, some horses were in but others were out. 

Can't comment on Sovereign but pictures look like there are horses turned out in winter. 

Perhaps it would be helpful to indicate which yards you feel do not turn out in the winter, in order to help the OP find a more suitable yard suggestion?


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## KautoStar1 (8 May 2016)

OPs question was how to manage turn out after 5 months in.  And many people have advised on that so I don't think people have been unhelpful and OP has made it clear she doesn't want to move.


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## applecart14 (9 May 2016)

Just an update. Had a lovely day on the fun ride yesterday, Bailey was full of energy but very sensible, had a field of horse canter and jump past him and he was rock steady, a couple of people commented on how good he was, although one of the canters up the hill did descend into a bit of a 'free for all', he was obviously having fun!  I did the shorter route as my partner had walked part of the route 'backwards' with the dog and rang to advise that at the end of the ride it was very deep going into the wood.  Bails finished full of running and we both thoroughly enjoyed ourselves.  There was plenty of varied terrain, I stayed in walk in the fields that had the longer tufty type grass and had a trot and little canter up the hills where the grass was short and green and flatter.

Was envious of everyone jumping, most of the jumps we have jumped on previous years, but kept my sensible head on, hopefully there will be plenty of time for jumping again later in the year on some other fun rides.  Bails kept trying to pull towards the jumps, he obviously fancied a go!  The photographer took a photo of us having a little canter past instead of over the photographers jump, although I cringe about how fat I look in it at least its a reminder of the day.

Met partner and dog back at the trailer and had a lovely picnic whilst Bailey had a pick at the grass.  Delighted with him, he loaded immediately both directions and was a joy to ride.  Put an instant ice pack on just as a precaution under his icevibe boot but as suspected leg was fine and remained fine later in the day after arrival home.  

This morning he has gone into the grass paddock at the yard for an hour and the time will be gradually built up over the next few days as we will have to watch the grass intake with all of them for a while and hopefully now the big field have been harrowed we can turn them out in the field in the next couple of weeks.

No doubt he will be full of gas tonight when I get to the yard so will take him for a quick spin around the block.


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## AdorableAlice (9 May 2016)

Were you at the Bluebell Ride at Wichenford.


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## applecart14 (10 May 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			Were you at the Bluebell Ride at Wichenford.
		
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No, although that's a fantastic ride as I have been on it a couple of times.  We went to Admington.


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## applecart14 (10 May 2016)

This was at the end of the ride!  Not a very flattering photo of either of us to be honest, but a nice reminder of the day.  May get the official photographers photo as its much nicer!!  

Be nice as a comparison photo for the next ride I do - by then hopefully I will have lost a few pounds and I don't because I have lost my purse either


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## TheSylv007 (10 May 2016)

Lovely pic


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## applecart14 (10 May 2016)

Thank you x


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