# Failed vetting on flexion test. Would you/have you proceeded?



## Tamski (13 December 2011)

Horse I really like failed the vet today on hind flexion test. She showed a very positive response to the test before being ridden and then a mild response after.

Vet couldn't find any obvious reason and no problems elsewhere. Vet said she'd be great if all i wanted to do was hack but no guarantees she'd stand up to more schooling or jumping

I told seller I'd have to think about it. What would you do?


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## charmeroo (13 December 2011)

I'm afraid I would walk away.  If nothing else - your insurance would have exclusions from day one with regard to hind-limb lamesness etc.  Obviously the horse could/might pass a vetting on another day or with another vet but from what you've said it sounds like quite a definite response to the flexion.


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## Meowy Catkin (13 December 2011)

I would go ahead with the purchase. I'm not a fan of flexion tests anyway.


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## BentleyBelly (13 December 2011)

A year ago I would have not minded and gone for it despite the failed flexion test. However in March this year, my pony, whose near foreleg had always failed a flexion test became permanently lame and he was diagnosed with DJD in that fetlock. He hacks out gently with a danilon a day which is fine as its all I like to do now but he wouldn't be capable of any more than that. So if I were you, unfortunately I would have to walk away.


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## newbie_nix (13 December 2011)

Definitely not a fan of the flexion test either. I had my youngster vetted before purchase. The vet was rather 'old school' took him from standing in his stall to a track about 20 metres away (so no chance to warm up) had his back leg up really high and held it up there for ages. On trotting away he was 'lame for the first 3 strides' then fine and he failed him on this basis. I bought him anyway.  Admittedly we are only using him for hacking, light work but even still I think its overly harsh.

Since then I have had him re-vetted and he is fine. The new vet said she still does the flexion test but only once the horse has been properly warmed up and even then she doesn't even look at the horse until they are quite far away. Her opinion was that a flexion test can make any horse look 'lame' and it is mainly used because vets are scared to sign soundness off in case they are sued at a later date. 

Many others I have spoken to who are more in the know than I am also agree with the above. Its a test that needs to viewed with pragmatism in their opinion.


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## Merry Crisis (13 December 2011)

You seem supprised! Flexion tests should be banned, to deliberately lame a horse is an out dated method of seeing how quickly it can become sound. They mean nothing at all and an owner of the horse for sale can demand that FTs are not used in a veterinary check. If I was having a horse vet checked I would insist that a flexion test was not done.


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## leflynn (13 December 2011)

I've done both...

Walked away from a lovely horse that jumped for fun when he had a positive reaction and my vet advised not to proceed, horse was 14yo.  Then bought current horse that failed and then re-passed (now 5yo).  As NB says be pragmatic and also don't view that as a singular thing only.

Would the seller agree to a loan period so you can both be confident it's the right decision?


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## Jesstickle (13 December 2011)

I don't much like them either. What are they meant to show exactly? I've never worked it out! Seems a bit of an odd test to me really


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## meandmyself (13 December 2011)

If someone held my legs up, I wouldn't walk away sound either! 

Are x-rays an option?


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## Mince Pie (13 December 2011)

Meowy Catmas said:



			I would go ahead with the purchase. I'm not a fan of flexion tests anyway.
		
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This ^

My boy failed his flexion, only time he was lame was due to a massive hematoma on his chest.


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## cassie summers (13 December 2011)

meandmyself said:



			If someone held my legs up, I wouldn't walk away sound either! 

Are x-rays an option?
		
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me to i dont like flexion tests either outdated completely depends how much the horse is if its in the 3000  or more than x ray and thats only because of your insurance otherwise i wouldnt worry about it


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## rockysmum (13 December 2011)

Depends what you want to do with it and how much it costs.

If its not a lot of money and you only want to hack then I would go for it.

If you might want to do more in the future or its expensive then I agree about investigating further.  Its probably worth a few hundred for xrays etc to save heartbreak later.


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## LEC (13 December 2011)

There are two approaches.

1) You get x rays - having gone through spavins with an eventer I will NEVER buy a horse without x rays ever again on hocks and front feet. 

2) You knock the price down to take into account the risk you will be taking. I would never buy a horse who failed flexions and then just pay the money the owner wanted!


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## Teeni (13 December 2011)

I think for me it would depend on the degree of the lameness shown and also how long they stayed lame.  I'm not a fan of flexion tests at all and i'm sure i'd hobble off lame should the same be done to me but i think they have there uses if only minimal.
I also view them similar to a MOT on a vehicle because it is only a representative of that day only!
I've seen a mare fail flexion tests on both hinds, the mare was trying to trot on 3 legs, she was 9/10's lame and stayed lame for at least two more weeks after, the sad thing was she was only a 9yo and the damage was caused through being hammered at a very young age.


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## be positive (13 December 2011)

Have bought one  that failed, he moved so well behind I felt he was worth the risk, he was sold two years later passing 5 stage including flexions with no problems.
I recently sold a pony that failed its vetting on front flexions the vet would not consider re examining him at a later date, which I wanted him to do, so I found another purchaser and he passed with no problems.
I think they are a poor guide as many horses that pass seem to go on to have problems anyway, if I wanted to go ahead I would get another vetting and possibly xray if the horse was worth it.


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## cassie summers (13 December 2011)

LEC said:



			There are two approaches.

1) You get x rays - having gone through spavins with an eventer I will NEVER buy a horse without x rays ever again on hocks and front feet. 

2) You knock the price down to take into account the risk you will be taking. I would never buy a horse who failed flexions and then just pay the money the owner wanted!
		
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yep totally agree with this


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## newbie_nix (13 December 2011)

Merry Crisis said:



			You seem supprised! Flexion tests should be banned, to deliberately lame a horse is an out dated method of seeing how quickly it can become sound. They mean nothing at all and an owner of the horse for sale can demand that FTs are not used in a veterinary check. If I was having a horse vet checked I would insist that a flexion test was not done.
		
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Having now seen one done I agree, if I were selling no way would I let a vet put so much pressure on my horse's joints. I am no expert of course but it seems a rather harsh, outdated and inaccurate method of assessing a horse's soundness.


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## glamourpuss (13 December 2011)

When I bought my Lad as a 3 year old I had flexion tests done. He was horribly lame on them & failed miserably. The vet told me to walk away, he said the horse was as good as crippled & would only have a useful life, as a hack, for a couple of years.
I knocked the price down to a minimal value & took him home anyway.
13 years later having completed BE eventing to novice, affiliated dressage & showjumping said horse is still going strong. He completed MK 3day event in the spring & is currently going out hunting.
I could honestly count on my fingers the times he has been lame.
I'd never have flexions done again they are outdated & very user dependent (different vets will have different results). I'd much rather have x-rays done.


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## Daytona (13 December 2011)

Agree with all the comments on flexion tests and after having a vetting done not long ago abd my vet confirming they not reliable (my horse passed though ) but he still said they not ideal.  Anyway I think because of insurance I would walk away as all companies will exclude though they might lift it if in 6 months he not got lame and tests redone and he passes.  Know someone who managed to get exclusion lifted that way.


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## Marydoll (13 December 2011)

There is no need to exert great pressure on a flexion test if theres a problem a gentle flexion will show it.
I wouldnt rule out a sale on flexion tests alone and they shouldnt be looked on in isolation as a reason to rule out a horse. What else showed up ?
As has been said before, get x rays if youre keen, but id negotiate a reduced price to reflect this extra expense.
Its a case of you pay your money and take your chance.


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## LaurenM (13 December 2011)

How much is the horse advertised for? I think my insurance requires 5 stage vetting if over £5k.

 My first horse passed a two stage - that was all the insurance company needed  I've not had any issues with lameness and I've had him almost two years - he'll be 17 soon


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## brighthair (13 December 2011)

Not sure really..

I had a mare who had 2 massive splints and the worst cow hocks you have ever seen - noted in vetting. She's now *counts on fingers* 19, still as rude/bargy/pig headed as she was as a 3 year old and has never had a day off. I had her for 6 years and never had a vet visit

I also bought a 18 year old ex racer who failed a flexion text (120 races, he was going to!). He developed very mild arthritis, and had dodgy hooves, but I had a lot of years fun hacking, schooling and jumping

I agree with the human analogy - I am sat on the sofa with one leg up, and if I stood up now I will hop for a step.... although I have 2 previously badly broken ankles so not ideal ;-)


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## Super_Kat (14 December 2011)

My top polocrosse pony failed the flexions nearly 4 years ago...... He went out and won a world championship this summer, nationals in '08/'10 and the europeans in '09. 
I doubt it would bother me.


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## Black_Horse_White (14 December 2011)

My horse was lame on his hind for 3 strides too, I brought him as the vet said he was suitable for what I was buying him for.


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## Garfield1537 (14 December 2011)

Not a big fan of flexion tests, I got my boy as he failed a flexion test so his original buyers walked away! I took the chance he's been fab but I only do dressage and it's not affected us at all x


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## Amymay (14 December 2011)

I would walk away.  You have a vetting for a reason......


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## Alphamare (14 December 2011)

This is why I don't bother with vettings anymore. especially since vets just want to fail horses because they are worried about liability.

But then I do have a good idea what I am looking at. 

Also I think flexion tests are barbaric and uncessesary and pointless.


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## BlueCakes (14 December 2011)

Bought my first horse without a vetting with the possibility that he might not last through hard work. Never lame a day I had him.

and bought my latest horse knwoing he had failed the flexion test.

I really wouldn't give a notice about a flexion test tbh. I have known lots of horses be fine but have failed that. How would you run after someone had just held yor leg in an awkward position? 

Ask if the owners can give you a 6 month guarantee on the leg he failed. If he goes lame on that within 6 months you are welcome to return him. Thats worth more than any vetting. 
x


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## Amymay (14 December 2011)

Alphamare said:



			Also I think flexion tests are barbaric....
		
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Really?  Why??


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## YasandCrystal (14 December 2011)

Meowy Catmas said:



			I would go ahead with the purchase. I'm not a fan of flexion tests anyway.
		
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^^ This


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## Alphamare (14 December 2011)

Aside from the fact that I think they serve no purpose? Let me hold your leg above your head and see if you run off sound! Besides as mentioned above gentle flexion can show problems so what's the point of doing this? It's rare for a horse to trot off sound. And if it lames a horse that means it hurts!

Anyway don't they expect soundness after x number of strides? Vet dependant though, OP sounds like your vet was very hasty to fail a horse that came sound within three strides


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## natalia (14 December 2011)

Difficult one, I personally prefer flexion tests when done twice on each leg for knee and fetlock and hock. I think these are much more acurate and tend to show up problems. I think flexions have their place and for initial diagnostics they are useful. If you still like the horse and are worried I would personally have the leg in question xrayed and scanned for piece of mind, you will be looking at a few hundred quid but if it saves you heartache its worth it. My own horse I didn't have vetted but got him cheap for what he is and I'm sure he has his problems but was prepared to go with the flow and see what shows up.


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## Amymay (14 December 2011)

Alphamare said:



			Aside from the fact that I think they serve no purpose? Let me hold your leg above your head and see if you run off sound!
		
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But the leg is not held above the horses head

I agree that there is a lot of controversy over flexion tests, but to call them barbaric seems a little ott to me..


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## Zimzim (14 December 2011)

End of the day, a horse may pass a vetting and then several months down the line, develop something and not be able to work anyway - its just how it goes. 

I know several people who had horses who failed vettings, but went on to do extremly well with them and had no further problems.

I've never had mine vetted, because I always wanted the youngster I have, knew and rode his dam, knew his owners and watched him grow up. So Im prepared to put up with what happens in life.


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## Black_Horse_White (14 December 2011)

The vet did pass my horse because he trotted up lame at the first flexion test, he then did a second one after he'd been ridden and he was sound. He also had him lunged on tight circles on hard and soft ground again sound. My previous horse was 2 stage vetted and passed, was PTS 11 months later with severe ringnone :-(


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## Black_Horse_White (14 December 2011)

"Ringbone"


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## HashRouge (14 December 2011)

My sister's gelding failed a flexion test 3 years ago, was vetted again several weeks later and passed. So it really depends on the day as to how certain horses react to the flexion test. Of course, we found out earlier this year that he has navicular so whether the failed flexion test was a very early warning I just don't know.


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## sammiea (14 December 2011)

A vetting is only as good or bad as the day it is done when it comes to a lot of problems.


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## Bubbles (14 December 2011)

As you say the horse showed a very positive reaction, I'd walk away. So often people buy a riding horse and end up with a field ornament, and whilst I agree in part about flexion tests, many many horses will trot up totally sound in the same test conditions.


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## Alphamare (14 December 2011)

Amymay my phone doesn't let me quote sorry.

I know the leg is not held above the horses head, I was likening it to how it would be for humans if we were flexion tested.

It's an out dated practice that serves little purpose and causes pain so yes I use the word barbaric. Maybe a little harsh but still appropriate.


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## Amymay (14 December 2011)

Alphamare said:



			Amymay my phone doesn't let me quote sorry.

I know the leg is not held above the horses head, I was likening it to how it would be for humans if we were flexion tested.

It's an out dated practice that serves little purpose and causes pain so yes I use the word barbaric. Maybe a little harsh but still appropriate.
		
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Interesting viewpoint.


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## Alphamare (14 December 2011)

That is all it is at the end of the day. My opinion.


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## minesadouble (14 December 2011)

I would definitely want to chat further with the vet about it and certainly wouldn't reject a horse simply for failing a flexion test. The main reason I don't like it is that it is a very subjective test. How much 'flexion' and how tightly it is held can vary hugely between one vet and another.

A quote from my own vet "you can make anything lame with a flexion test" - in my view they are too subjective and outdated.


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## Luci07 (14 December 2011)

Well I am in the minority as I do think they have a purpose. My horse I sold earlier this year sailed through his vetting, aged 11. One 10 year old I tried to buy some 3 weeks ago failed and it showed all kind of warning signs. Most people who are anti don't seem to want to do a lot with the horse competitively in which case its not a big deal but I wanted to buy a horse to event upto Novice. Very very sadly, in his case he showed lame on the flexions -  we had expected some degree of flexibility as he had been well hunted and competed. Vet came back and flexed again at the end of the vetting and was still not happy. I then paid out for x rays and it transpired that this horse had an advanced bone spavin. The owner didn't know about it. My own vet looked at the x rays as well for me and, while she is normally fairly pragmatic/realistic her very very strong advice was to walk away and that this horse had a very limited career competing ahead of him. I also read the posts on this forum plus talking to a friend whose horse has the same condition...

 So, I do not knock flexion tests. I was truly gutted to have to turn down this horse (who was lovely) and in petrol, vetting and x rays have spent over £600 to find he will not do the job I want. I already have one very healthy semi retired horse and definatly can not afford another one. Owner was lovely, had no idea and was also gutted. Horse effectively passed all other elements of the vetting so without the flexion test I would have purchased a horse who would probably have ended up being a hack within 18 months.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (14 December 2011)

would walk away without a shadow of doubt.
both our ex racers trot up 100% sound after being flexed hard, one is 7yo and schooling PSG dressage with never a lame day and the other has raced on concrete ground in Oz with never a lame day and completely clean legs-i do think they are an indication of general soundness as highlight any niggles/aches/potential problem areas.

the one horse we have who does not flex sound, is a very niggly horse, a few problems here and there that have kept him out of true work and ultimately meant he is now only going to hack as we cannot keep him right in hard work.

if you flexed me i would not walk away sound, but then i also cannot run for any distance/several days in a row, as go *lame* on my knee and ankle ligaments, so a very true indication of whether i could be a top athlete-i couldnt! no differrent for horses.


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## Honey08 (14 December 2011)

For me it would depend on the price of the horse and what you wanted to do with it.

I watched the vetting for my friend's horse years ago.  It was a 13yr old warmblood that had done well at lower levels of BSJA.  He wanted to learn to jump on it, hack and occasionally hunt.  The horse was up for £2000, which I thought was too cheap.  On the flexion test the horse was distinctly lame.  I was there going "Ah thats why it was cheap" and the vet (very experienced vet who also judges at county level) said "Don't write it off for that, it will be fine at local level and is a nice horse otherwise.  He was right. The horse did all RC activities and hunted without any problems. It was sound for the five years that he had it, and I believe is still going strong now with it's next owner..

I don't agree that its a barbaric test if done properly.  Lots of horses don't limp after them.  It may be slightly uncomfortable for a horse that does have stiffness issues, but not majorly.  I would never worry that much about a flexion test, in fact I much prefer a two stage vetting overall.  Its just something to know about and to make your mind up on..

If an owner refused to let a vet perform a flexion test I would definately walk away!


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## Cedars (14 December 2011)

If an owner refused a flexion test I would walk away too!!

We had one fail the vetting on flexion, we were SO keen on her. Owners told us she fell out the lorry, we said we'd think about it. Looked back at the videos (and posted on here) and she was lame in that same leg three weeks before so we walked away. Owner got really funny, so we knew was the right decision.


Interestingly (she was an eventer) she did nothing else all season - and is now up for sale on BE again - will be really interested to see if she does sell or whether that lameness is more permanent.


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## sharky (14 December 2011)

The horse i had vetted before my current one failed flexion on his right side but was completely sound on the other leg.

It was a complete shock to the owner and like Luci07 i was out of pocket by quite a few hundred quid.
I walked away from the sale, although looking back, because the vet had found one or 2 other niggles (not enough to fail) and as it was my 1st horse i do think she didn't really want me to have the horse and so pushed the flexion test a bit far to get the failed result.

He was such a lovely boy, but i do think the vet was contributory to the 5 stage failure by being a tad overzelous with the flexion test.
(i know her motives were in my best interest though)


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## ABC (14 December 2011)

I had a mare who I bought for a rock bottom price because the stud where she was born didn't want a bad reputation for producing lame horses. When she was put up for sale she had a vetting from the first buyer and failed the flexion test. I got her for less than £500, and she was never lame with me.

I loaned her out after 6 months because at the time I had three and she was a dressage horse through and through, and we didn't "click". I sold her to her loanee earlier this year, and she's out competing medium dressage with potential go to up another level. 

It depends on if you want to take the risk but I got a bargain and the horse turned out to be a little superstar


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## Mlini (14 December 2011)

Mine failed on trot up but I still bought him


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## Kenzo (14 December 2011)

A horse can fail one day and pass on another, it really depends how quickly they work out of it an if there is any other signs of a problem in that particular leg, flexion tests have their place, they wouldn't be part of vetting otherwise but they are not the be all and end all.


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## Laafet (14 December 2011)

My own horse passed two flexion tests, one fairly close to purchase and one a month ago, a week after passing the last test he was X-rayed and scanned, he has a bone spavin and PSD. Neither showed up on flexion.


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