# Hardest decision, think might have to have healthy pony PTS :(



## R2R (1 November 2010)

I have a pony whose owners asked me to have at the yard after its loan home went wrong. The pony is ultra talented flatwork wise (it does lateral work etc) and would make a 128 jumping pony. It has hunted etc and would follow all day. 

BUT

It has become apparent that the pony also bolts. He panics and runs flat out. He did it with my goddaughter in the school, I rode him and he flew forward with me and I came off landing on my head...at which point he went to a friend as she has an ultra ballsy rider who was doing fantastic work with him. A week ago she dropped him at the yard saying she had a paying livery and couldnt keep him, and then this week I found out the pony bolted with ballsy rider across the heath and terrified the life out of her. 

I am now faced with a pony I cant ride, and cant ask any kids to get on him for risk of something happening. I dont want to send him to a dealer, so I feel my only option is to say to the owners he needs to be PTS  Any advice?


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## Booboos (1 November 2010)

Unless they can afford to retire him for the rest of his life, PTS is the only responsible option. I assume you have discounted physical causes for the bolting, and it now looks like experienced riders cannot deal with him, so he is extremely dangerous. If he was sold he could go on to seriously injure someone else, probably a child.


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## noodle_ (1 November 2010)

Booboos said:



			Unless they can afford to retire him for the rest of his life, PTS is the only responsible option. I assume you have discounted physical causes for the bolting, and it now looks like experienced riders cannot deal with him, so he is extremely dangerous. If he was sold he could go on to seriously injure someone else, probably a child.
		
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i agreee ^^  assuming you have had a vet or physio out etc to check theres nothin gphysically wrong


the risk to a child or even an adult is too high with a bolter.


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## ThePony (1 November 2010)

boooooring, but back teeth etc checks incase it is a pain reaction rather than the pony just choosing to bolt? Any chance of him being a companion?  If you can't secure his future as a non-ridden pony and he is too dangerous to be ridden then I think pts is the best option. It is the kindest option to a pony and the safest for any potential future riders than an dodgy future owner might move him on to. Sounds harsh, but I really don't feel a bullet is not the worst end for a horse tbh.


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## Spudlet (1 November 2010)

Is there any physical reason for this - his saddle etc fits ok? I'm sure you will have checked but thought I would raise it just in case. Or it may be that something has hurt in the past and he now freaks out in case it hurt again without giving himself time to realise it doesn't, if you see what I mean.

I guess once you have ruled out physical causes, your options are to find a small enough adult to reschool him, find a companion home, look at some kind of job he can do in-hand or PTS.

I hope you can get it sorted out.


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## Leg_end (1 November 2010)

I am assuming all health checks have been done to eliminate the cause of the bolting?

As above poster has said, unless you can send him somewhere to retire or be a companion then I think you have an obligation to the pony and to any future potential riders to do the right thing for all involved.

Very very sad though


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## piggyinablanket (1 November 2010)

Booboos said:



			Unless they can afford to retire him for the rest of his life, PTS is the only responsible option. I assume you have discounted physical causes for the bolting, and it now looks like experienced riders cannot deal with him, so he is extremely dangerous. If he was sold he could go on to seriously injure someone else, probably a child.
		
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I agree. Harsh but true. If he is that dangerous with an adult I would definately advise owners to PTS. Couldnt risk a childs life.


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## Bowen4Horses (1 November 2010)

artysteph said:



			I agree. Harsh but true. If he is that dangerous with an adult I would definately advise owners to PTS. Couldnt risk a childs life.
		
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i also agree... sad 

unless you can find a cause for the behaviour, it's too much to risk.


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## R2R (1 November 2010)

Yep all fine teeth wise etc, he is a hardy little pony, WHP type, all fine saddle wise. With me, he ran away from a  trotting pole - it is like a mental thing (he had jumped the jump, the pole was on the floor, and he bolted becasue it had changed. With goddaughter he bolted becasue he was spooked...


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## Groom42 (1 November 2010)

If physical pain has been ruled out, the responsible thing to do is put it down.
"Healthy" means mentally healthy as well as physically fit and well. A pony with possibly a large screw loose is not healthy.

ETA How old is it?


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## ecrozier (1 November 2010)

A friend of mine had a horse that did something similar - she did manage to work through it with help of Richard Maxwell, and tehn rehomed the horse having been totally honest with new owners. However a pony is probably more difficult as more aimed towards kids....and agree that potentially PTS is the safest option unless he could be a companion....


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## Bowen4Horses (1 November 2010)

Groom42 said:



			"Healthy" means mentally healthy as well as physically fit and well.
		
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an excellent point. 
R2R don't beat yourself up, like Groom42 says, he's not a healthy pony if he's a bolter. xxx


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## R2R (1 November 2010)

I know, I just dont really want to go to the owners and say I give up - have been trying for months  

Poor pony


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## alesea (1 November 2010)

It sounds stupid, but have you tried any groundwork- it could be that the pony is just a bit confused about aids, especially if kids have been riding him. Just practice 'stop' and 'go' on the arena and make sure he's absolutely obedient- also teach him to 'park' i.e. stand stil on the end of a rope and not move until he's told to do so- push him back if he moves so that he learns not to. It's a fairly easy thing to do- start in the stable and move into scary environments. 

It just helps to clarify if it's a communication problem- it really is amazing how many horses don't actually understand how to 'stop'- it tends to be because people have been too quick to teach them to stop from the seat, or never remninded them that they still have to be able to stop from the hand. Then when they encounter something that makes them bolt, and the natural reaction from the rider is to pull on their mouth, they simply don't understand why and get even more scared!


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## spidge (1 November 2010)

Could the pony possibly be suitable for carriage driving, more so if used in tandem?


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## JavaJaneW (1 November 2010)

We were in the same situation. We loaned a pony, 14.1 (ish) Connemara x, knew at the time he would occasionally panic and run, but decided that daughter would be able to ride him. She is good, confident rider and has a good seat to control.
His problems turned out to be that of a bolter, he would just run flat out in any enclosed area, the only way to stop him was to tight circle onto his haunches.
Daughter was not fazed by it and controlled him mostly, however other riders (friends)  he would gallop with around blindly and they could not stop him.

Daughter rode him for 6 months, worked so hard on him until they had a relationship of respect, although he would occasionally take off still.

At the end of the loan, due to Harry being returned to me, we decided that he would be returned, because 4 ponies was a handful,  but the owner gave him to a RS, where he showed his colours again and hurt a rider by bolting for about 30 minutes until she came off.
At this point we were told he would be sent to a dealer, and my heart over-ruled so I said we would take him back (this was just 3 days after he had gone)
It took several days to catch the beggar and weeks to regain his trust, however, both him and daughter now have a beautiful bond again and he trusts her. He now bleongs to us  He wont be going anywhere I don't think and he has shown his skill at cross country, it just works for the two of them.
But it took a lot of guts and courage to keep him knowing him, and I can see where your dilemma is, if you can't find that perfect rider who can try and overcome it.....

edited to add, his problem is leg contact, any pressure and he is off, also overbending (pinned to his chest) however, daughter worked on him to improve this and now they know what ticks.
He has had every check going for problems and none found btw.


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## Maesfen (1 November 2010)

At his size, no question about it.  For your conscience's sake, do the right thing.


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## Groom42 (1 November 2010)

The problem with ponies of this size, is that the children riding them are usually tiny, and often not particularly experienced or confident. There are not many good enough tiny jockies to deal with truly difficult tiny ponies. And why would a parent want to put their tiny child (however good) into that potentially disastrous position? Even if the perfect child was matched up with this pony, the child will outgrow it, and then the whole sorry thing starts again. IMO, it is just not worth risking the life of a child either now, or in the future.
The suggestion of driving it is an interesting one, but I would seek advice from a seriously experienced driver on that.


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## Maesfen (1 November 2010)

spidge said:



			Could the pony possibly be suitable for carriage driving, more so if used in tandem?
		
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They'd have to be kamikaze pilots that don't mind their vehicle being smashed up when it takes off.   IMO, far too dangerous to even think about that especially if it will be driven on the roads as most have to.


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## mtj (1 November 2010)

I've learned the hard way to always get a second opinion re saddle fitting, physio, dentist if things do not pan out as envisaged.

Having said that, sadly I know of several horses who have been pts due to bolting and post mortem have shown brain tumours. These horses appeared to be in very good health.

Best wishes for such a tough decision


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## spaniel (1 November 2010)

spidge said:



			Could the pony possibly be suitable for carriage driving, more so if used in tandem?
		
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Cant believe you actually typed that!!!

It BOLTS!!!!!


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## Enfys (1 November 2010)

Ok.

Say this pony was a dog that posed a real threat to people and had bitten/attacked before, people would be saying pts for safety's sake. 

A pony/horse that bolts is a real threat also, not only to any rider, but to handlers, bystanders, anyone in the way, it could get onto a road, cause a pile up and kill or maim people, innocent people. 

Anyone that knows a pony has a tendency to bolt and knowingly endangers others is irresponsible. 

Unless someone wants to take it on as a companion, or willingly risk their own neck then I would pts. It is a ticking time bomb.


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## brighteyes (1 November 2010)

I'm afraid companion only or PTS and as a companion; the fear is that someday, someone, somewhere will try and get on him...

Crying shame.  Out of interest, how old is this pony?  I would be tempted, as a very last ditch thing, to get a really *really, properly* qualified EDT to him.  A friend had one put down because of his unreliable and inconsistent temperament.  From a youngster, he'd been treated by an EDT who is totally crap and I fear he might have had a mouth issue as he owner said it was a bitting thing.  However, she wouldn't be swayed by the possibility this guy wasn't all he cracked himself up to be 

But other than that, he's best some place where he can't _ever_ be a danger to people.


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## Katikins (1 November 2010)

mtj said:



			Having said that, sadly I know of several horses who have been pts due to bolting and post mortem have shown brain tumours. These horses appeared to be in very good health.
		
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I also knew a horse that was the same, blind panic bolting (which at one point included over a main road, thank goodness nobody was hurt).  The owner decided to PTS and had a post mortem and the result was the same, a brain tumour.  This horse was also completely healthy in every other way so it was almost impossible to pick up on.

If it was me I'd PTS as especially with a pony of this size its just too dangerous for children to be riding it.  Horrible decision to make though.


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## Happyhuntress (1 November 2010)

I was just going to post that I had heard of a similar case, and it turned out the horse had a brain tumour, and now I see someone has just posted as much!

That said, if it were an underlying neurological condition, I would expect it to manifest itself in other ways, not just when ridden.

Either way, I think the only way is to PTS, for safety's sake.


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## MurphysMinder (1 November 2010)

Agree with the majority, sadly I think pts is the only responsible thing to do.  With a pony of that size there is always the chance a child will be seriously hurt, not a risk you should take imho.


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## Natch (1 November 2010)

1) Are the owners willing to pay for everything to be checked out?

2) Would they be happy to keep him as a companion (Not sure of your role in this, if you are a full livery YO or you just have tried to give pony another chance) or find a loan home for him as a companion? A LOU freezemark may help to prevent him from being ridden again?

3) Is he safe to handle on the ground, and could therefore do groundwork (natural horsemanship etc) if there was a child or adult who wanted to have a play around with that?


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## Natch (1 November 2010)

spaniel said:



			Cant believe you actually typed that!!!

It BOLTS!!!!!
		
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Its such a shame that its so common for people to think that if a horse can't be ridden it would make a good driving horse  

Off topic a bit, but it scares me that a lady I know has an 18 month old, has just had it castrated and had no idea that keeping it on a not very clean bed wasn't the best of ideas, I see has now been on (our local horse) forum asking for advice on which book to buy to learn to drive with - she wants to learn to drive and break the pony (who I have no idea if he is suitable) to harness at the same time *headdesk*


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## Sparkles (1 November 2010)

If it really is last last last chance time for him....would it be worth getting in contact with any of the practitioners at all? I know they often do shows and want demo horses to work with etc....whether some kindly worded emails or phone calls seeing if they'd take him on would make any difference at all to try it from a different angle?

If all has been tried, then why not. It's only a small delay and one last chance really before the ultimate final decision there is anyway.

I'm in no way an NH convert or anything else, BUT, no harm in trying and it would be his last chance from the sound of it anyway. How many other horses would have been put down etc before which they've worked with...never know if this could be another 'turn around'pony for them to fix out....even worst case scenario....still no result, and the pony is still PTS.


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## R2R (1 November 2010)

I sort of took him as a favour as his owners live miles away and the loan didnt work - and now I am sort of stuck with him.


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## MrBailey (1 November 2010)

Better knowing what happens to them than the sorry spiral down..... harsh but true.


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## nativetyponies (1 November 2010)

Pony's life V's Childs life....................mmmmmmmm.....

No Brainer really


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## NeedNewHorse (1 November 2010)

Everyones got a story of how they had X checked and all appeared fine, then they got a second opinion and it turns out that it wasn't fine after all and horse suffered with a Y.

So I would definitely (before you end this ponies life) check everything again. Also, why not also get a professional out (such as Michael Peace) and get their opinion on the matter, as they deal with these problems day in and day out and might be able to hit the nail on the head.

Personally for me, anything is worth a go.



x


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## Bluecat45J (1 November 2010)

Sorry, come in on the end and not sure if this has been suggested, but could you not get him loaned out as an unridable companion, if he has manners on the ground but just bolts under saddle? just an idea.


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## DragonSlayer (1 November 2010)

I am not going to insult you by suggesting every avenue you have been down - eg - teeth, back a million times...blah blah blah...

You are being very sensible in this. You can't risk the pony going elsewhere as at some point someone COULD try to ride him again....

A hard choice, but I feel the right one.

Chin up! You have done your best, sometimes nature just takes over and defeats us....


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## Puddock (1 November 2010)

Sorry to ask the obvious - but has his eyesight been checked? It's just from your description it sounds like he may be bolting in response to a visual stimulus?


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## FestiveBoomBoom (1 November 2010)

spidge said:



			Could the pony possibly be suitable for carriage driving, more so if used in tandem?
		
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Brilliant 

OP I would recommend pts to the owners - definitely. Are they likely to agree or kick up a fuss?


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## irish_only (1 November 2010)

I also know of one that did this and had a brain tumour.

Tough - but I think you will be making the right decision to pts. Far too risky to put anyone on board, and there are so many unwanted horses and ponies at the moment anyway.


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## Puddock (1 November 2010)

Yeah, I liked the driving suggestion too :-D

It's not like driving horses have to be super-safe or anything...

Anyway, eye problem was just a suggestion which you have no doubt already looked into. Even if a problem was discovered, it wouldn't give you a solution, just the possibility of working around it.

Anyway, I wish you all the best, PTS may be the best option, but I feel for you.


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## spidge (1 November 2010)

spidge said:



			Could the pony possibly be suitable for carriage driving, more so if used in tandem?
		
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To the fatuous all knowing people who have derided this, you may have misunderstood the punctuation and the phrasing.  It was put as a question, not a suggestion.  If the answer is no, then a simple no would have sufficed.


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## Puddock (1 November 2010)

Splidge. Thanks for that. I'm not in the habit of deriding anyone. I was using humour to make a serious point - in case anyone reading the thread suddenly thought "What a great idea, I'll break my serial bolter to harness!"

Oh, and I'm not a "fatuous, all-knowing" person either. That's an oxymoron. I think what you meant was "fatuous, but with an awareness of her own omniscience". Hope that helps


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## lavery834 (1 November 2010)

hi, my sister bought a pony from a dealer.she is approx 12 hands.after a few weeks she started to bolt,including twice at least at the pony club,the club asked her not to bring her back.a few people including myself said to get rid of her as she was dangerous.my mum advised to start training her with a treat,sweet etc.asking her to stop with a certain command,ie woa, whilst mounted and then give a reward.this could also be done whilst on the lunge.this little mare learned this very quickly.my sister has now owned her for approx 4 years,in this time my neice won best individual at the scottish horse of year show with her for her age group.she is also now used for pony trecking carrying all levels of children and behaves immpecably.i wish you all the best.


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## RuthnMeg (1 November 2010)

Bolting is about as dangerous at it gets. Put a child into that equation, and YOU could end up in a huge regretable mess.
Don't risk it. Don't even think about risking it. Either pony goes to heaven or lives out in a field as a companion as long as companion home realise how dangerous it is and is not attempted to ride the pony.
If you have the pony now, can you not make the decison or does the 'owner' want to be involved? 
If the pony is on loan to you, are you not responsible for its welfare, and therefore have the right to choose what happens to the pony? (in the same sense that if it broke its leg, you would get it pts without getting owners concent first?)


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## TGM (1 November 2010)

lavery834 said:



			hi, my sister bought a pony from a dealer.she is approx 12 hands.after a few weeks she started to bolt,including twice at least at the pony club,the club asked her not to bring her back.a few people including myself said to get rid of her as she was dangerous.my mum advised to start training her with a treat,sweet etc.asking her to stop with a certain command,ie woa, whilst mounted and then give a reward.this could also be done whilst on the lunge.this little mare learned this very quickly.my sister has now owned her for approx 4 years,in this time my neice won best individual at the scottish horse of year show with her for her age group.she is also now used for pony trecking carrying all levels of children and behaves immpecably.i wish you all the best.
		
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To be honest, the pony you describe above doesn't sound like a proper 'bolter', more a pony taking the mickey and tanking off, which can be cured as you described above with sensible schooling.  A true 'bolter', however, just runs and runs in a blind panic with no thought of safety for itself, let alone it's rider.


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## kate1982 (1 November 2010)

I personally think the last thing this pony needs is a "ballsy rider". In this situation I would admit defeat and look for someone else to re-school this pony. Take it back to basics and start again. 
I have bought many horses/ponies as un-ridable and through time, patience and knowledge they have come round. For some of them it might take 6 months to a year of groundwork before I even think of getting on them.
I also re-habilitate dogs that are due to be pts due to having owners that for whatever reason couldn't cope.
I agree with the lady that suggested you call around and try to find a place that you trust that might take this pony on. Alternately there are charities out there that take companion horses.


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## Puddock (1 November 2010)

Yes, but those welfare organisations are currently overflowing with healthy horses without behavioural problems that they are struggling to rehome.

I think that's why that doesn't feature in the OP's list of options, sad as it is.


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## R2R (1 November 2010)

The pony is nervous on the ground and wont be caught in the field,and therefore is hard to work with.

If I said he would jump a jump three times, then duck out at the fourth for no reason like he had never seen it before and run off - I dont really know what to say other than it is a tough one?


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## Baileyhoss (1 November 2010)

This doesn't sound like a novice, numpty home with a rebellious pony taking advantage of the situation.  

It sounds like a deep seated problem with the pony - possibly a tumour, possibly a behavioural thing.  

Either way, it's a situation that can't continue.  I have known a few bolters - one small pony flat out bolted in panic at high pitched noises (think high pitched child screaming) - it was sacked from the riding school immediately the problem was realised and sold to a very knowledgable home where they knew his problem & could cope.  

Another larger horse was a little more unpredictable the owners tried a few things, but he was PTS after bolting across a road and killing a motorcyclist.  

Bolting is THE most dangerous thing a horse can do.  If you can't find the cause it's safer and kinder to PTS.


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## MissSBird (1 November 2010)

When I worked in a tack shop and it was quiet I used to read the equi-ads. There was a lady who used (and who may still) to write articles for it who did a lot of work with horses that were dangerous. Unfortunately her name completely slips my mind right now, but if the owners are willing I'm sure people on here could help you find someone who may be able to help.

But at the same time, there's always the underlying worry the pony might do it again with a small child, given it's height. You would be responsible in suggesting the owners pts. It's a difficult decision, but may be the best for all concerned


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## Amymay (1 November 2010)

alternately there are charities out there that take companion horses.
		
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*****  _sigh_  *****


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## R2R (1 November 2010)

amymay said:



			*****  _sigh_  *****
		
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Agreed at that


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## Sparkles (1 November 2010)

I'd be giving it back to the owners tbh....their responsabilty at the end of the day and this decision of all shouldn't be forced onto your shoulders. If I couldn't keep it myself as an ornament, then it would be on a trailer back to it's owners.


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## YorksG (1 November 2010)

People cannot sell good, well behaved animals at the moment, the market is flooded with horses and ponies. This is not the time for animals with problems to be moved on, at all IMO. There is only one answer to this, pts as soon as possible.


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## charlie76 (1 November 2010)

without wishing to sound rude, as I don't know you or the child that was riding the pony, what level of rider would you put yourselves at? Would the child be able to stay balanced when the pony gets nervous? would you say you were big on the pony or the right sized? The reason for asking is that we have had a few like this and we have managed to work through it with them. What we found was happening was that the horse/pony would worry about something, go to bolt ( and yes, proper bolting) and the rider would loose their balance, which would panic the pony more, the rider would then fall off and the pony would be terrified casuing a vicious circle.
In fairness, I don't think anyone on a forum should be advising PTS or otherwise without seeing the pony, getting full history ect.


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## Natch (1 November 2010)

charlie76 said:



			In fairness, I don't think anyone on a forum should be advising PTS or otherwise without seeing the pony, getting full history ect.
		
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Hmm see I kindof agree with this for a lot of things, but bolting is one of those few things that 1) is hard to school away 2) is often unpredictable and 3) is flipping dangerous, adult or child on board.

If the pony's future as an unridden companion can't be reasonably guaranteed, I too, would be looking at PTS.


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## R2R (1 November 2010)

charlie76 said:



			without wishing to sound rude, as I don't know you or the child that was riding the pony, what level of rider would you put yourselves at? Would the child be able to stay balanced when the pony gets nervous? would you say you were big on the pony or the right sized? The reason for asking is that we have had a few like this and we have managed to work through it with them. What we found was happening was that the horse/pony would worry about something, go to bolt ( and yes, proper bolting) and the rider would loose their balance, which would panic the pony more, the rider would then fall off and the pony would be terrified casuing a vicious circle.
In fairness, I don't think anyone on a forum should be advising PTS or otherwise without seeing the pony, getting full history ect.
		
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Child is ten, confident and  balanced enough to do lateral work including changes etc and jump a 1m plus course etc and is not a panicker - she threw the reins to him when he ran off and sat still, then tried kicking him forward half way round, then eventually stopped by grabbing the bit ring and steering him into a bush.


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## Kokopelli (1 November 2010)

By any chance has he had a brain scan? A friends horse did this and he actually had a brain tumor which was causing it, such a shame 

If he is absolutly fine physcially have you thought about trying to build trust with the pony or turning away for a year and re backing?

I'm not into the parelli rubbish but I think that building a trusting relationship with a horse really helps most problems especially if he is bolting because he is scared.


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## PapaFrita (1 November 2010)

charlie76 said:



			In fairness, I don't think anyone on a forum should be advising PTS or otherwise without seeing the pony, getting full history ect.
		
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Quite. HOWEVER the OP does know the horse and if she thinks it will be necessary to PTS why should anyone question her judgment?


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## Rosehip (1 November 2010)

My big girl is a 'bolter' when out alone, she hasnt (so far) bolted when schooling, but I dont trust her at all out of an arena, she also hasnt bolted when out with another horse, but has spun and gone to run. I bought her as a pity project, with a view to drive, she is perfect in the long reins and harrows well, but I would never ever ever put her in the shafts for fear of what she could do - having been in a carriage with a bolting horse in front, on a road, it is the least pleasent way to pass the time I can think of! No way would I advocate putting the pony in question in harness. 
I wouldnt push my oppinion on anyone, but OP, if he is bad to catch, nervy to handle and talented but dangerous to ride, it may be the kindest thing for the pony to put him to sleep. 
Wishing you all the best with your hard decision. x


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## dingle12 (1 November 2010)

Please dont think i am been rude but is it possible for you to send the pony away to a small adult for a few weeks and see if they can sort the pony out? The adult will be stronger then your child and sadly ponies cotton on very quick to what they can get away with. Where abouts are you? also what size and age is this pony?


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## Over2You (1 November 2010)

Don't know if this has been suggested or not, but what about contacting Kelly Marks? There's a section on her site where you can request that your horse be used in a demo. Or you could also try other NH sites for advice. 

Here's a link: http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/content/view/60/138/

Putting a healthy animal with fixable behavioural issues down is something I would never even consider doing.


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## Sandstone1 (1 November 2010)

I have not read the whole thread but if it was my pony I would make sure he had a complete vet check by a equine vet have teeth back and saddle checked by experienced saddler, dentist etc.
maybe even try a animal comunicator. If he really is dangerous then the only answer may be pts but I could not do it with out trying everything first.
Its a big decision to take a life and i would not want to think I had not done everything in my power to help the pony.


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## Weezy (1 November 2010)

I would have the pony PTS.  I would not pass him on, as a companion or otherwise.  Fact is the pony now has a seated behaviour and has scared more than one person.  If you DID pass him on as a companion there is no guarantee that the new owners would not try and ride or sell him on to ride.  To guarantee that no one is hurt and that the pony is not hurt, the only sensible option is PTS.


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## sweet-tooth (1 November 2010)

Does the pony bolt in any one particular scenario?,or does it just bolt per se .

Usually a bolter in my experience does so in either fright or pain, it differs from those that can run through the bridle in order to take the p?$$.

I certainly wouldn't want a child to get back on board , but feel for you having to contemplate putting him down.

Hopefully you can find the reason and sort.


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## letrec_fan (1 November 2010)

People have said about brain tumours. Also, pony I used to ride started to buck etc me off. In the end, it turned out she had a tumour (or similar, cannot remember exactly) on her spine. She had to be PTS.


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## Daisy2 (1 November 2010)

As a companion maybe


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## Orangehorse (1 November 2010)

A very long shot, but there have been some satisfied customers from animal communicators recently.  What was the cost, around £15?  Might be worth that - I think you only have to send a photo.

You might find a companion home.  I have a companion pony that we cannot ride, but he is perfect, good to catch, doesn't kick or bite, well mannered to handle, easy.


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## Baileybones (1 November 2010)

Hi

Firstly can I say that I'm so surprised at how many people have encountered horses with brain tumours! 

My mare has a full array of issues (listed on another thread) and honestly had reached the end of the line. I lost count of how many people told me she probably has a brain tumour. Interestlingly my vet (who is brilliant and very high profile) told me whilst examining me mare that she has never in 15 years treated a horse with a brian tumour. Not saying that they don't occur just that they are very rare. Might be worth getting a vet's opinion on that subject.

With regards my mare today she was seenby Michael Peace. The man is a genius! So obvious when it is all broken down. 
I told him the truth - we were at the end of the line. Then within hours I watched this "dangerous horse" chaneg just because things were being broken down and she could make an informed decision. 

Not saying there is a cure for everything but I just felt i couldn't make the most final decision of her life without exploring both pain and behavioural route. Thank god I did. 

Good luck x


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## spotty_pony (1 November 2010)

Does he only bolt out hacking? Would he not be ok just as a Dressage pony? Sorry I have only read the original post.


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## Happy Hunter (1 November 2010)

Its amazing when people dont bother reading the whole post!! 

You have said its no good on the ground.
You have said its back teeth ect is fine.
You have already said an adult has ridden it. 

Honestly! (mini rant over )

that 10yr old who grabbed the bit ring sounds a mini eventer in the making anyway! Plus points to her!!

I agree with most - Sad, but its a PTS job really.
What have the owners said? - I mean even if you reach the decision, inform them in the nicest way and they say ' Oh but little pony poopies is such a sweety, cant you try something else?'
Are they they type to understand do you think - I know its a bit of a bombshell at the best of times.

Sorry to hear you have had such a dilemma about this one.


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## MagicMelon (1 November 2010)

Why on earth cant the pony go to someone as a companion?  A 128 is ideal for that!


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## YorksG (1 November 2010)

It can go as a companion, but who wants a companion that you cannot catch, that does not behave on the ground? How does the OP or the current owner ensure that the pony is only ever used as a companion. I went to a sale on Saturday and the place was full of horses and ponies, going for approximately meat money (not even that much for some of them). Any pony which is not suitable for a child to ride, is not going to find a market at the present time. Better that it is pts now, rather than later.


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## Jane_Lou (1 November 2010)

The reason it should not go as a companion has been highlighted so many times - the issue of horses going missing on loan or when sold for a nominal amount ending up being sold as suitable riding horses.

This happened to a friend who put her field sound pony on loan as a companion who disappeared and was later found sold within days of going on loan as a riding pony. This pony was featured in H&H a couple of years back in an article about companion horses being passed on as riding horses. And before you ask - yes she did all the checks you would expect - these people are very clever. This pony fortunately landed on her feet as the home she ended up in are keeping her as a companion to their new pony and keep in touch with my friend. This pony was unsound and buted to sell - what is to say the op's pony would not be doped to sell and end up going on seriously injuring (or worse) a child. My friend wishes she had her pony pts - until she found out that she was ok she spent many anxous months worrying what had become of her.


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## Kokopelli (1 November 2010)

Baileybones said:



			Hi

Firstly can I say that I'm so surprised at how many people have encountered horses with brain tumours!
		
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The one I mentioned with tumour was confirmed with the post mortem poor thing it was a big one aswell so had been developing for a good few years the poor guy


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## 3DE (1 November 2010)

The problem may be fixable but who is to say that at some point in the future the horse doesn't have a 'slipup' and bolts again. Once a 'behaviour' has become established there is always the chance it could reoccur - not something I would want on my conscience. I think you have made the right decision with PTS


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## Zebedee (1 November 2010)

Pony has to be PTS end of. It can't go as a companion, because sooner or later someones expert friend will want to try & sort it out.
It bolts. Therefore it's unsafe for small adults as well as children.
I am guessing that many of the respondents have limited experience with bolting horses as opposed to horses that are simply hard to stop. I have ridden two true bolters in my life, & had to throw myself off ( not as easy as it sounds at full tilt) because the headcase I was on was heading for a quarry. The other one fell over so we hit the ground together. I have been carted out hunting & on the gallops. There is no comparison between being carted, & being bolted with. 
Tough call C, but I think you're doing the right thing.


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## guido16 (1 November 2010)

R2R, Why are you having to make this decision?

I would be giving the owners your opinion and then telling them to make a decision.

For what it is worth, I agree with PTS


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## horsecrazy25 (1 November 2010)

Firstly <<<<Hugs>>>> This is such a tough decision for you to make. Would the owners of the pony be wiling to pay for a brain scan to see whether the pony has a tumour? As then you can take the right action from then.

Would it be worth trying to turn the pony away for a month or two and just letting the pony be a pony? And then in this time off you could go out daily and try and gain the pony's trust buy playing games and just having one to one time with the pony.

x


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## Rachaelpink (1 November 2010)

Have you tried getting a natural horsemanship person out to look at the pony and work with it? There must be some reason it's doing it and it seems quite harsh to put it down before trying every possible option.


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## Redd (1 November 2010)

I don't envy you your decision 

The only thing I will post, is that I had (and still have) a horse that would sometimes jump a 3foot 3" spread, and the next second deck you at a 1foot crosspole.  I had his back, teeth etc checked, to no avail.  I then tried an equine Mctimmoney chiropractor, who finally sorted him out!  I now ride him in a comfort bridle (Elevator) and pro-lite pad under his saddle and he's flying and completely happy.  He never bolted, so was not dangerous in this way, however I did nearly give up on him once.  I've now had him 6 years.

Good luck with your pony. x


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## RunToEarth (1 November 2010)

MagicMelon said:



			Why on earth cant the pony go to someone as a companion?  A 128 is ideal for that!
		
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Because, as already stated several times on here, there is no guarentee the pony will not be sold on ridden, causing some other poor child an injury. 
It is a dangerous animal, it is a danger to people, it should be PTS.


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## Kallibear (1 November 2010)

Poor little mite.

I'm afraid I agree with the majority and would have him PTS. But after all the nessesary checks.

However, even if something IS found, how long would you need to keep him and have a 'bolting free' period before deciding he's 'safe'? 6months? A year? 5 years? Because he can now never be trusted to behave himselve with a child even if the root cause is found.

He would be ideal as a companion and it would be something I would look into - not everyone are unscrupulous. But it would have to be a loan, and somewhere close by. And I'd have him freeze branded with the word 'BOLTER' (and recorded on his passport) too........


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## SusieT (2 November 2010)

imo, freezemark - not to be ridden into saddle area. loan as companion.


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## Aoibhin (2 November 2010)

spidge said:



			Could the pony possibly be suitable for carriage driving, more so if used in tandem?
		
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i personally would never put a known bolter into shafts, if it bolts then the risk to not only its driver but also anyone with them & anyone who gets too close (being wiped out by a trap on its side is not funny) let alone the injuries it could cause to itself.


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## Ted's mum (2 November 2010)

I am looking for a hardy small companion pony, pref something unwanted like this poor little fella...pm me if I can be of any use!


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## KS1 (2 November 2010)

spidge said:



			Could the pony possibly be suitable for carriage driving, more so if used in tandem?
		
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One of the most irresponsible suggestions I have read, a driving pony needs to be all together mentally and physically.

This pony is dangerous to ride and will certainly be dangerous to drive.

As for putting in a tandem    if anything when a horse is put with another it is always as a pair first not straight to tandem.


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## brigantia (2 November 2010)

OP, I am so sorry to hear you're in this difficult situation. I think it might be best to return to the pony to its owner with your honest assessment of what happened. PTS or possible retraining should be the owner's responsibility. 

How long have you had the pony? Has it always been this way? 

My pony used to bolt with me. It's possible, from reading the other posts, that she was a naughty horse taking advantage rather than a "true bolter." I nearly had to rehome her, but instead I kept her and worked through our issues and now she trusts me and we have a fantastic bond. I hack her out alone and in company and we have done long distance rides and she's done everything I've asked. We've been in truly scary situations--ie on a bridlepath with a herd of young bullocks chasing us--and her companion horse bolted but she stood her ground and stared down the bovines so they backed off, lol. So she's really trustworthy little horse now. But I'm an adult riding her, making my own choices. 

Some "problem" ponies can be good as gold with the proper retraining. However, your pony might indeed be truly dangerous. It's hard to know whether retraining could work for him. But in any case, it would seem to be the actual owner's responsibility to make the call whether to put the animal to sleep or not. 

I hope your child finds a good pony to ride and have fun with.


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## annaellie (2 November 2010)

Wow am suprised at how many replys on nh etc. It is a childs pony it's to small to be a adults pony. How on earth could this pony be trusted with a child on it. I got my first pony 12.2 could jump the moon but was a bolter. My mum was conned into buying him by a very bad dealer we had no knowledge of horses what so ever. When it bolted there was no stopping him if anything or anyone was in the way tough he would run right through. He was a danger. It came to a head when I was out hacking and he bolted through a gap in the hedges into the road right in front of a bus luckliy it stopped in time and ran straight onto a housing estate. My mum spoke to yard owner who bought him off her looking back I wish we would have pts. Adults who choose to get on a known bolter know the risks and consequences children don't. I would give it back to owners and strongly advise pts


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## paulineh (2 November 2010)

I have just 2 questions 

1) How old is the pony     2) Where do you live.

I bought a pony that bolted he was 13.2 and went on to be Reserve National Endurance Champion, local Champion as well as too many prizes in show jumping and x country to mention. He was was 10 when I bought him.

There are ways and means of sorting out a bolting pony / horse.

I too would say contact one of Monty Roberts  people.


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## Empy&Treacle (2 November 2010)

First off, I am very sorry to read of your problem 

BUT - and I am not posting this to cause an argument and yes he's dangerous if he bolts - however, I just cannot believe that a "flight animal" should be PTS because it acts upon it's own and only known instinct.  Horses aren't out to hurt people or their riders, but they are there to protect themselves and at the moment he obviously doesn't trust his rider enough to take confidence in them.  

Perhaps there isn't anything obviously wrong, but have you looked in to the possibility of a trapped nerve - I read of a horse that would event absolutely fine but all of a sudden he turned in to a complete rodeo psycho horse and would dislodge his rider every single time - that was because of a trapped nerve!!  Difficult to diagnose I suspect, but not an impossibility... and horses react differently to things so just because that horse bucked doesn't mean this one wouldn't bolt to get away from it.  Just a thought. 

Have you thought of re-braking him and completely starting again, getting his full trust on the ground through join-up?  I know it's a lot of hard work, but it might help him.

If all else fails a companion would surely be the best option.

Before anyone says - I can't have ever been bolted with so I don't know what Im on about - I have, its terrifying and I fully appreciate the dangers!  

I just feel SO strongly, like I said above, for a horse to be put down because he reacts on his ONLY known instinct is not right. He perhaps just doesn't know any better at the moment! 

You will undoubtedly do the right thing in your circumstances and I wish you the best of luck with him... I hope it's a happy ending!


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## FairyLights (2 November 2010)

This pony is dangerous,if his teeth and back are ok the PTS is the only safe option. Think how you would feel if someone was injured or killed.


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## Rueysmum (2 November 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			Quite. HOWEVER the OP does know the horse and if she thinks it will be necessary to PTS why should anyone question her judgment?
		
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Because the OP may not be qualified to make that kind of diagnosis/decision - (she could be any old person).  I agree with the poster who said that the pony should be thoroughly investigated by experts before any decision is made.


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## Pacey (2 November 2010)

That's a shame.


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## nativetyponies (2 November 2010)

Rueysmum said:



			Because the OP may not be qualified to make that kind of diagnosis/decision - (she could be any old person).  I agree with the poster who said that the pony should be thoroughly investigated by experts before any decision is made.
		
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Why?

The OP knows the pony has seen it "in action"..why does she need a "qualified person"?

i certainly wouldn't need any "qualified persons" if i wanted to put to sleep a dangerous pony


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## Rueysmum (2 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			Why?

The OP knows the pony has seen it "in action"..why does she need a "qualified person"?

i certainly wouldn't need any "qualified persons" if i wanted to put to sleep a dangerous pony
		
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Because the OP's idea of "bolting" might not be the same as somebody else's.  She also probably doesn't have the required knowledge to carry out back/saddle/physio/vet checks etc.


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## Maesfen (2 November 2010)

Rueysmum said:



			Because the OP's idea of "bolting" might not be the same as somebody else's.  She also probably doesn't have the required knowledge to carry out back/saddle/physio/vet checks etc.
		
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You assume a great deal Rueysmum and you also sound incredibly arrogant.  Who are you to say they don't have the required knowledge or the expertise available to them?

Like NP, if I thought the pony needed putting down for bolting then I would, I wouldn't be asking permission; I know what is right and wrong and I like to sleep at night.  It would be criminal to let this pony go anywhere there was a chance it would be ridden again by a small child; which mark my words, would happen because there'd be clever dicks saying they could solve the problem.  Don't blame the OP for not wanting that to happen.


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## Rueysmum (2 November 2010)

How do we know the OP is not over-dramatising?  Her idea of "bolting" may just be somebody else's idea of just running off.

Have you seen the pony?  Do you know the OP?  How can you be so sure that things are so black and white?

There are a lot of arrogant people around, but I am not one of them (thanks very much!)


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## Amymay (2 November 2010)

How do we know the OP is not over-dramatising? Her idea of "bolting" may just be somebody else's idea of just running off.
		
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OP has always come across as pretty sensible, practical and non hysterical when it comes to horses......


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## Rueysmum (2 November 2010)

amymay said:



			OP has always come across as pretty sensible, practical and non hysterical when it comes to horses......
		
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FF?


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## Maesfen (2 November 2010)

Rueysmum said:



			How do we know the OP is not over-dramatising?  Her idea of "bolting" may just be somebody else's idea of just running off.

Have you seen the pony?  Do you know the OP?  How can you be so sure that things are so black and white?

There are a lot of arrogant people around, but I am not one of them (thanks very much!)
		
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I'm sorry, you almost make me laugh although your concern for the pony is laudable.  What about concern for the child who would ride it?

The sheer fact that a 12.2 pony is bolting with able children on is enough to ring alarm bells.  Even if someone else sees this as merely running off, the fact that the pony does it at all, makes it very suspect as suitable for a child of whatever ability.


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## Amymay (2 November 2010)

Rueysmum said:



			FF?
		
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I know exactly who this poster is.

And as I say - has always come across (where the horses are concerned) as practical and non hysterical.


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## nativetyponies (2 November 2010)

Rueysmum said:



			How do we know the OP is not over-dramatising?  Her idea of "bolting" may just be somebody else's idea of just running off.

Have you seen the pony?  Do you know the OP?  How can you be so sure that things are so black and white?

There are a lot of arrogant people around, but I am not one of them (thanks very much!)
		
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I KNOW the OP from way back on here..and believe me, she would CERTAINLY know.

as i said earlier, pony's life/childs life..no brainer


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## Rueysmum (2 November 2010)

If you have met in real life then I take it all back.  

My point was that it's all very well for people to jump on the "shoot it" bandwagon without really knowing the person/horse concerned, but if you have detailed knowledge of the OP's ability/integrity then fair play to their ultimate decision.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (2 November 2010)

Jess1 said:



			First off, I am very sorry to read of your problem 

BUT - and I am not posting this to cause an argument and yes he's dangerous if he bolts - however, I just cannot believe that a "flight animal" should be PTS because it acts upon it's own and only known instinct.  Horses aren't out to hurt people or their riders, but they are there to protect themselves and at the moment he obviously doesn't trust his rider enough to take confidence in them.  

Perhaps there isn't anything obviously wrong, but have you looked in to the possibility of a trapped nerve - I read of a horse that would event absolutely fine but all of a sudden he turned in to a complete rodeo psycho horse and would dislodge his rider every single time - that was because of a trapped nerve!!  Difficult to diagnose I suspect, but not an impossibility... and horses react differently to things so just because that horse bucked doesn't mean this one wouldn't bolt to get away from it.  Just a thought. 

Have you thought of re-braking him and completely starting again, getting his full trust on the ground through join-up?  I know it's a lot of hard work, but it might help him.

If all else fails a companion would surely be the best option.

Before anyone says - I can't have ever been bolted with so I don't know what Im on about - I have, its terrifying and I fully appreciate the dangers!  

I just feel SO strongly, like I said above, for a horse to be put down because he reacts on his ONLY known instinct is not right. He perhaps just doesn't know any better at the moment! 

You will undoubtedly do the right thing in your circumstances and I wish you the best of luck with him... I hope it's a happy ending!
		
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Agree completely. A very intelligent reply


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## Empy&Treacle (3 November 2010)

Thanks Blazingsaddles  - I just hope it get's considered.  

All the posts saying put him to sleep etc... really saddened me.  Like I said, horses are flight animals - he is only acting on what he naturally knows to do when he is terrified.  

Until you start looking deeper you'll never ever get a reason for why the poor pony is doing it!  There are plenty of options for him and a bullet wouldn't even be on my list - he's only acting on what he naturally knows and I just feel he deserves to be broken-in again, started over and given a second chance to prove what a talented pony he really is. 

I wish the owner all the best and I hope he lives to have a happy ending!!


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## *hic* (3 November 2010)

^^^^^ what a sweet idea. Scores virtually nothing in the practicality stakes though. The pony is 128cm - that means that effectively the test pilot, after all the groundwork etc, will be a child. Would you let your child get on that pony?

I own a true bolter, he's big enough for me to ride and we did manage to sort his issues - ie WHY he bolted - before my daughter rode him. They were a wonderful partnership and he is in a home with us where he trusts and is, mostly, trusted. I would, however, never part with him because he's not "cured", he's still a bolter and always will be, it's just that we now understand him and he understands that he will never be put in a position where he can do nothing but bolt. Different home? Different rider? The problems would start up again.

The little pony talked about here? Either stays with its owners so they can guarantee it is unridden, even though it's a little toad on the ground or, the most certain way of dealing with it, pts.


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## lexiedhb (3 November 2010)

OP- I don't really see this as a hard decision. Assuming you have investigated all sources of pain which as AmyMay says, knowing you, you will have, and have given this pony its best shot, but it is still dangerous, as true bolter's are then i don't think you have much of a choice.

Well ok you do- field ornament, or PTS......


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## Tinseltoes (3 November 2010)

Field ornament is best choice.


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## Empy&Treacle (3 November 2010)

jemima_too, I am only 22 and have no children so I can't answer - but no I wouldn't - I'd address the situation properly!! 

Natural Horsemanship associations would not shoot a horse becuas they're too small to do anything with - they deal with minatures to 18hh's.  They're not fussy!

And you say it's a "little toad on the ground" - well there's half your problem!  If he can not be controlled on the ground, put where you want him and told to stay there until he is asked to move then how on earth is he meant to be controlled when he is ridden.  He is the boss in the current situation and clearly takes little respect/trust from his handler's/rider's.

Like I said, my opinion would be ground work (and lots of it) including join up and then re-brake him and if that fails then a companion!


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## nativetyponies (3 November 2010)

I also do a great line in Rose-Tinted Glasses


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## PapaFrita (3 November 2010)

So if you failed to sort his problems and sent him to a new home as a companion, what's to stop THAT person selling him on and the next person selling him on and so on and so on? What if in searching for the cause of his problem he hurt someone badly? And what is wrong exactly with deciding *not *to pass the responsibility on to someone else?
Question was for Jess1 btw


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## PapaFrita (3 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			I also do a great line in Rose-Tinted Glasses
 

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In the Huggle Horsemanship range along with the Kamikaze headbands and blinkers


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## charlie76 (3 November 2010)

No need to be rude just because some one has a different opinion on something. If the OP was 100% sure that it was the right thing to do then why come on an open forum and state the story rather than just cracking on and getting it done, she has some doubt in her mind and wants feedback and suggestions which is what is being offered from different points of view.


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## Ruddyreindeer (3 November 2010)

Totally agree, Charlie76. Well said.


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## Amymay (3 November 2010)

No need to be rude just because some one has a different opinion on something.
		
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I agree.  However, PapaFrita has made a very, very relevant point.  And in a polite manner.


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## charlie76 (3 November 2010)

Maybe so but others also think they have made a relevant point in a polite manner just to have their comments shunned.
In the past few months both on the forum and in real life I have come across many people in the equine world who seemed to be intent on putting other peoples ideas/opinions down. We might not all agree on a subject but it doesn't mean that one persons opinion is any better than anothers.


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## Amymay (3 November 2010)

Maybe so but others also think they have made a relevant point in a polite manner just to have their comments shunned.
		
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Possibly because they suggested things that could potentially kill someone.........

And actually some opinions do matter more than others and do have more value than others.

People with many years of experience in horses - who are practical, intelligent and above all realistic have opinions that far outweight those that don't.

Thankfully no one has suggested palming it off on a charity yet.

But I'm sure that suggestion will come too.


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## charlie76 (3 November 2010)

But no one should have such a definate decision on an animal that they have never seen before, know no history and can go by what is said on a forum. I often have people come into my work and ask for advise on what bit to use on a horse, without seeing the horse in question there is no way I would advise, what happens if I advised the wrong thing?
Quite aware that some one could be injured or worse but it can't be for someone who has not seen the situation in real life to advise either way or infact, how to go about curing it should there be a cure.


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## Alibear (3 November 2010)

alesea said:



			It sounds stupid, but have you tried any groundwork- it could be that the pony is just a bit confused about aids, especially if kids have been riding him. Just practice 'stop' and 'go' on the arena and make sure he's absolutely obedient- also teach him to 'park' i.e. stand stil on the end of a rope and not move until he's told to do so- push him back if he moves so that he learns not to. It's a fairly easy thing to do- start in the stable and move into scary environments. 

It just helps to clarify if it's a communication problem- it really is amazing how many horses don't actually understand how to 'stop'- it tends to be because people have been too quick to teach them to stop from the seat, or never remninded them that they still have to be able to stop from the hand. Then when they encounter something that makes them bolt, and the natural reaction from the rider is to pull on their mouth, they simply don't understand why and get even more scared!
		
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This can actually work , it takes a lot of time and training but I can confirm it helps. It is not a perfect cure though.
The other one is to train in a dead stop to a voice command, so you yell "HALT" and horse stops dead. Sometimes the yell is whats needed to get into panicing ponies brain. 

Add to that have you tried a calmer? People say they are no good for bolters but have to disagree with that.

A combination of finding the right calmer and the above style training is really working for me.

But then I am an adult , for kids? I'm not sure it's possible. 
I certainly would back any decision you make in this case. It's a tough spot that I find only those who have been there can really understand. Everyone else thinks "but there must be a way".


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## lexiedhb (3 November 2010)

charlie76 said:



			Maybe so but others also think they have made a relevant point in a polite manner just to have their comments shunned.
In the past few months both on the forum and in real life I have come across many people in the equine world who seemed to be intent on putting other peoples ideas/opinions down. We might not all agree on a subject but it doesn't mean that one persons opinion is any better than anothers.
		
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But you are doing exactly that by suggesting that having it PTS should never be an option?


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## charlie76 (3 November 2010)

No I'm not. I haven't stated what to do either way. My advice would be ask and expert in real life, or make the decision yourself, don't go on the back on what a load of strangers views might be on an internet forum.
If OP is as experienced as what others have stated on here, and I am sure she is, then she will know whether the pony is worth perservering with and much her own judgement.


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## PapaFrita (3 November 2010)

charlie76 said:



			No need to be rude just because some one has a different opinion on something. If the OP was 100% sure that it was the right thing to do then why come on an open forum and state the story rather than just cracking on and getting it done, she has some doubt in her mind and wants feedback and suggestions which is what is being offered from different points of view.
		
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Criticism and disapproval is not the same as advice. Perhaps she wanted sympathy for what can only be a horrible situation. What she's had is people question her judgement and accuse her of cruelty. IMO that's just as bad if not worse than rudeness. And I'm never rude, even when I really really think it's deserved.


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## Amymay (3 November 2010)

But no one should have such a definate decision on an animal that they have never seen before
		
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I completely agree.  However they can have a definate _opinion_ on the situation, based on experience and common sense.


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## lexiedhb (3 November 2010)

The OP certainly isn't a stranger to some  of us..........


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## Groom42 (3 November 2010)

Sorry, couldn't resist, apologies for flippancy etc etc etc, in what is a very serious post, but............"and then re-brake him" - if it were that easy, there wouldn't be a problem, as it is the brakes that are faulty.


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## PapaFrita (3 November 2010)

charlie76 said:



			But no one should have such a definate decision on an animal that they have never seen before, know no history and can go by what is said on a forum. I often have people come into my work and ask for advise on what bit to use on a horse, without seeing the horse in question there is no way I would advise, what happens if I advised the wrong thing?
Quite aware that some one could be injured or worse but it can't be for someone who has not seen the situation in real life to advise either way or infact, how to go about curing it should there be a cure.
		
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But it's perfectly OK for someone who has never seen the animal and knows none of its history to insist that it _shouldn't_ be put to sleep?.... AND you acknowledge that someone could get injured. Does that not stike you as a double standard?


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## PapaFrita (3 November 2010)

Groom42 said:



			Sorry, couldn't resist, apologies for flippancy etc etc etc, in what is a very serious post, but............"and then re-brake him" - if it were that easy, there wouldn't be a problem, as it is the brakes that are faulty. 

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*nods seriously* Yep, could be the discs...


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## *hic* (3 November 2010)

Groom42 said:



			Sorry, couldn't resist, apologies for flippancy etc etc etc, in what is a very serious post, but............"and then re-brake him" - if it were that easy, there wouldn't be a problem, as it is the brakes that are faulty. 

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Naughty naughty, I've been sitting on my hands over that  one wondering if anyone else had noticed!


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## Bertthefrog (3 November 2010)

God these people make me mad.

A pony is for kids to ride. If it bolts without reason then it cannot be ridden safely by anyone.

No human life is worth the risk.


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## SplashofSoy (3 November 2010)

If it is a childs pony and could cause a child serious damage through its behaviour better to have it PTS than end up being passed around.  Why is it we put dangerous dogs to sleep because they do harm but people want to keep a pony alive that could cause as much damage.  In both cases often it is training by people that has been lacking and the animal has to go but that is the way things are.  Leaving it as a field ornament in this situation doesnt sound practical and there are no guarantees about what the future holds.  There would be fewer people who end up hurt because of unsuitable horses if people would do the responsible thing and PTS.  

I wish the OP well and commend her for even considering making a tough decision.


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## lexiedhb (3 November 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			But it's perfectly OK for someone who has never seen the animal and knows none of its history to insist that it _shouldn't_ be put to sleep?.... AND you acknowledge that someone could get injured. Does that not stike you as a double standard?
		
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I said that- apparently that is not what she is saying


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## s4sugar (3 November 2010)

SplashofSoy said:



			If it is a childs pony and could cause a child serious damage through its behaviour better to have it PTS than end up being passed around.  Why is it we put dangerous dogs to sleep because they do harm but people want to keep a pony alive that could cause as much damage.  In both cases often it is training by people that has been lacking and the animal has to go but that is the way things are.  Leaving it as a field ornament in this situation doesnt sound practical and there are no guarantees about what the future holds.  There would be fewer people who end up hurt because of unsuitable horses if people would do the responsible thing and PTS.  

I wish the OP well and commend her for even considering making a tough decision.
		
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I absolutely agree.
A dangerous pony will eventually cause harm and won't know it's end is nigh if PTS by an expert.

Too many horses are not euthanised (it means good death BTW) because people won't take a responsible decision or listen to people who don't understand the implications of keeping an equine that is likely to injure someone. If it is a known bolter, different to tanking off but the same for these purposes, insurance companies won't pay out.
Could any of the people offering it a home or saying keep it as a companion afford the costs & compensation if it bolted in front of a vehicle or into a crowd?

As for further tests. I have pain about 25% of the time. It is in one leg muscle from a nerve that may have been damaged during emergency lower abdominal surgery. It doesn't show up on any hospital test but shows as a minor temperature change using thermography only when the pain is active. It feels like multiple needles or stings.

Something like this could never be found on a pony.

I see two options, keep it as a companion at home or PTS - I would choose the latter.


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## *hic* (3 November 2010)

I see two options, keep it as a companion at home or PTS - I would choose the latter.
		
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I have chosen the former for ours and he is now retired - but there is a clause in my will that says if I pre-decease him he must be pts as he is too much for my husband to manage, he must not be sold and my daughter is away at Uni and can't take responsibility for him.


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## R2R (3 November 2010)

I asked the question becasue in MY opinion it is the best thing to do however I now have to go to the ponies owners, sit them down and tell them what I believe with sensitivity and limited hysterical reaction. 

THAT is why I asked for opinions, and I appreciate them. I dont really see how who I am has anything to do with it!


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## Maesfen (3 November 2010)

R2R said:



			I asked the question becasue in MY opinion it is the best thing to do however I now have to go to the ponies owners, sit them down and tell them what I believe with sensitivity and limited hysterical reaction. 

THAT is why I asked for opinions, and I appreciate them. I dont really see how who I am has anything to do with it!
		
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Would it help at all if they read what is the over riding opinion on here, if you could print this out?  They might see, that bar the slightly stupid replies, that in the main, everyone is singing off the same hymn sheet in that better to be safe than sorry and have something awful on your conscience.    I know it might go the other way too but at least they would have heard a variety of views, not just your own.

All the best, I don't envy you the discussion.


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## lochpearl (3 November 2010)

Good Luck R2R, not the nicest thing to have to do, but the best for the pony. Who knows, the owners might decide to retire him to a field at the thought of losing him, but better they make the decision and that he doesn't get into the wrong hands.

And yes, not quite sure why this has got on to who you are, but eh? this is a forum lol


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## Rueysmum (3 November 2010)

Is this the same pony?

"I have a really nice 13.2hh gelding at my yard. Trouble is he is really quirky and unconfident  have tried all the desensitisation etc  what I really think he needs is a friend who will spend time with him and love him. 
To ride he is great, but a bit random..for instance he will happily ride out down the same path one day, and spook the next. Same with jumping  he will jump about 4 easily, but has a dirty spooky stop. His one saving grace is he will hunt all day, jump anything, and keep up with the big boys. 
He is also difficult to catch  I can catch him, because I feed him, but no one else can. 
I have tried project horses but I am worried about him going into the wrong hands. He needs someone who will love him and be his mate and make friends with him whilst keeping him fit and ridden. He is not my pony, he was put on grass livery at the start of the summer and left and his owners have now asked me to sell him. Trouble is, how?"


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## R2R (3 November 2010)

Yes, I had had him a month there and he hadnt done it nor had I had much to do with him- however he has bolted 3 or four times since that hence I am in the situation I am in. All of the above is true, unfortunately so is the bolting.


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## howengold (3 November 2010)

my section A was a bolter, and after a few vet visits it was discovered he had a bad back which coupled with his already nervous disposition made him dangerous.

He was retired about 17 years ago and has been a companion for our weanlings in the past and now has a place in my herd of old decripids and he will stay there until he dies or has to be pts.  

If I had to get rid of him I would have to say I will pts as he may not find a home who can support a pony who can't be ridden and I'd hate to see him passed from pillar to post.


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## ldlp111 (3 November 2010)

So has he been known to bolt before he came to you or is this something he's just started now?


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## R2R (3 November 2010)

ldlp111 said:



			So has he been known to bolt before he came to you or is this something he's just started now?
		
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If he did, I wasnt told, however I suspect he did it at loan home which is how he ended up coming back and becoming my problem.


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## Empy&Treacle (3 November 2010)

amymay said:



			Possibly because they suggested things that could potentially kill someone.........

And actually some opinions do matter more than others and do have more value than others.

People with many years of experience in horses - who are practical, intelligent and above all realistic have opinions that far outweight those that don't.

Thankfully no one has suggested palming it off on a charity yet.

But I'm sure that suggestion will come too.
		
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Wow, this place is charming!

Everyone's entitled to an *opinion*.  It does not matter how old you are, how many years you have had horses or anything else for that matter!!!!  ...I had ideas that I had not seen offered in the other posts which simply and bluntly said SHOOT HIM! 

No one should be shouted down for their own opinion or laughed at because there was a spelling mistake - it's pathetic and frankly rude when someone has simply asked for some advice, kind words, opinions or general ideas.

R2R, like I said in my other posts I really do hope there is a happy ending, but you will undoubtedly do what is right for yours the pony's and owner's circumstances.  I wish you all the best!


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## Orangehorse (3 November 2010)

Have you tried him on a big dose of magnesium? There was an article about magnesium defiiciency which was a reference from a DG, I just don't think it was the Horse and Hound DG, I can't remember where it was.  I have searched my History and still cannot find it, but I read it and thought how much it sounded like a very spooky pony I know. 

 This pony had bolted and he was nearly always in a high anxiety state.  He had been on magnesium and there was a definite improvement, but not enormous, but reading the article he hadn't been fed sufficient quantitiy for long enough.

The article mentioned bolting and the more work you give the horse, the worse it becomes, rather than calmer, also very, very spooky. Also very tense in the back. Magnesium has an effect on the muscles, hence the tenseness. Also, according to the article,  excess is excreted by the horse, so overdosing is not too much of a problem. Maybe someone else can refer to this article.  In the meantime I willcontinue to trawl round and see if I can find it.


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## howengold (3 November 2010)

amymay said:



			,
Thankfully no one has suggested palming it off on a charity yet.

But I'm sure that suggestion will come too.
		
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some one has about four pages back...all the usual replies have been made and now everyone has resorted to scrapping over small details.

At the end of the day it is the owners decision.  As long as they are prepared to keep it with them, a companion job is not a problem but if they try selling or loaning PTS has to be the only option unless one of these nice people on here can give him a forever home.  Believe me if I could I would as none of mine have been sold on and I have a bolter and four of my lot are what other people would have had pts three are now ridden and competed, the bolter however is a companion/fixed herd member.  There are people like me out there as well as the morons who sell on dangerous ponies....shame no one like me can help out.....


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## charlie76 (3 November 2010)

If you read my post, I have not said that the pony should not be PTS if it is dangerous the same as I have not said it should be. What I have said is that is the decision of the owner and the OP to make and they are the ones having to deal with it. 
However, it is also not fair to take the mickey out of the people that, in their opinion, is what they might try in same such situation. Might not be what we would all choose to do but one persons opinion is as valuable as the next.


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## Orangehorse (3 November 2010)

http://www.performanceequineusa.com/magnesium-themineralsuperhero.aspx

This was the article.  It reminded me of a pony I know, and have ridden, and always seemed ready to run off at the slightest thing.

However, ref the pony in your thread.  I agree with the majority that it would be better PTS rather than risk the life of a child or anyone else for that matter.  And it obviously has a real problem if it has run off with you as well.


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## lexiedhb (3 November 2010)

... actually none of this matters at all as it is not the OP's pony, so it is up to its owner- with advice from the OP.......


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## howengold (3 November 2010)

Just incase I was read as taking the mickey, I wasn't and appologise if it came across that way.  But after reading every reply all I get is sarcasm and back biting from many replies.  Thankfully the OP seems a sensible enough person and just wanted to know how to handle the situation rather than be told what we would all do.

I restate my words that the OP and owner can only make this decision but if it is that dangerous and there is a chance a person may unwittingly sell the boy on and he re-offends then it could be disasterous.  I think it would be fab if someone could take him on as a companion with a clear understanding that if proffesions can't help him he may never be ridden safely again.  These people are few and far between however and like me usually have more companions than ridable ponies.

Sadly if the OP and owner can't bring in the likes of Richard Maxwell/Monty/Kelly Marks or find someone who can be trusted not to just sell a problem on, then what other option is there....Its just sad that there isn't someone out there who is prepared to give him a chance and if it doesn't work give him a home for life as a companion.


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## Empy&Treacle (3 November 2010)

Charlie76, I couldn't agree more!


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## Zebedee (3 November 2010)

Tell you what C, ask the owners to sell him to me for £1, then I'll make the decision if you'll deal with the practicalities your end. That way people can have a go at me not you, & you can just get on with what needs to be done instead of having to defend yourself on here.


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## charlie76 (3 November 2010)

The wonders of the internet and misconstruding the way things are typed! No one is asking the OP too defend herself, OP, do what you and the ponies owner think is the right decision, you deal with the pony on a day to day basis, you have to pick up the mess when he takes off however, you might think you might like to give the pony a chance in which ever you see fit. Don't let people on a forum, who do not know you situation, facilities, ability, experience, instructor etc etc ect sway you either way. Its a massive decision and one only you and the owner can make.


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## Kaylum (3 November 2010)

havent read all the thread but what we would do is first of all give the pony some time off, probably hunting has blown its poor mind.  Then slowly bring it back into work with a lot of time and walk him for a good few weeks until he is happy.  

Depends how much time they are prepared to put into him or if they are too scared now.


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## R2R (3 November 2010)

zebedee said:



			Tell you what C, ask the owners to sell him to me for £1, then I'll make the decision if you'll deal with the practicalities your end. That way people can have a go at me not you, & you can just get on with what needs to be done instead of having to defend yourself on here.
		
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Are you 100% serious?


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## beeswax (3 November 2010)

kept telling myself i was not going to comment but cant help it anymore so here goes!!!! there have been so many for and against comments, sadly most if not all the against are for PTS sad.  I agree that a childs life could be put at risk and also that there are so many ponies out there looking for a home, sadly charities are stocked with healthy horses so those that really need a hand cannot find one these days (i think the charities should have an age 17+ when old horses in their care are PTS to make room for the young uns - they also deserve a chance of a life instead of the kill pen, in the wild the old ones would have been preyed on by now making way for the young uns). Anyway back on track, seems the pony is just very nervous and i dont believe there is a single very experienced capable child rider out there who at some time is not going to feel nervous and transfer this to the pony/horse they are riding.  Throwing the reins at it and then a 5-6 stone child trying to stop a pony in full flight that weighs about 350kgs is just *******s, it is not going to happen, and therefore this situation cannot even be called upon as an explanation of what happened. So poor ponio gets the PTS tag its a bolter!!  Wish i could take it i am on 5ft but i couldnt afford it as already have an expensive one.  Do honestly feel it should be rebroken - if it is a true bolter it is going to bolt on the lunge line then you would know it is not the saddle, the rider or the way the wind was blowing. But give it a decent chance please. Rebuild its trust for starters horses/ponies are not daft they can tell when they are either disliked by someone or that person is nervous of them so if you cant do it get someone else to.  Horses with tumours can do many things one of the signs is foaming at the mouth and walking like they are drunk then hitting their head against the stable wall in pain.  Hope you find an answer soon


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## nativetyponies (3 November 2010)

zebedee said:



			Tell you what C, ask the owners to sell him to me for £1, then I'll make the decision if you'll deal with the practicalities your end. That way people can have a go at me not you, & you can just get on with what needs to be done instead of having to defend yourself on here.
		
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Bloody well said...


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## Munchkin (3 November 2010)

zebedee said:



			Tell you what C, ask the owners to sell him to me for £1, then I'll make the decision if you'll deal with the practicalities your end. That way people can have a go at me not you, & you can just get on with what needs to be done instead of having to defend yourself on here.
		
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Now there's an offer!

R2R - I had to go through this last year and there's a reason I never talked about it on this forum  - you obviously have a sensible head on your shoulders, so do what you think is right and don't listen to people who are more concerned with who can shout the loudest.

Or, take the offer above!

Good luck. I know exactly how it feels, sadly.


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## nativetyponies (3 November 2010)

Can I ask a serious question?

What is SO wrong about putting this pony to sleep?

Because i'm damned if I can see that anyone has actually pointed that out?

WHY does this situation need further investigation?
WHY should "experts" be involved?
WHY?

A short, and to the point reply will suffice.

Thank You.


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## Groom42 (3 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			Can I ask a serious question?

What is SO wrong about putting this pony to sleep?

Because i'm damned if I can see that anyone has actually pointed that out?

WHY does this situation need further investigation?
WHY should "experts" be involved?
WHY?

A short, and to the point reply will suffice.

Thank You.
		
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Nothing.


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## Munchkin (3 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			Can I ask a serious question?

What is SO wrong about putting this pony to sleep?

Because i'm damned if I can see that anyone has actually pointed that out?

WHY does this situation need further investigation?
WHY should "experts" be involved?
WHY?

A short, and to the point reply will suffice.

Thank You.
		
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Ask Papa Frita.

Or did you want a serious answer to the serious question? If so, I agree with Groom42.


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## YorksG (3 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			Can I ask a serious question?

What is SO wrong about putting this pony to sleep?

Because i'm damned if I can see that anyone has actually pointed that out?

WHY does this situation need further investigation?
WHY should "experts" be involved?
WHY?

A short, and to the point reply will suffice.

Thank You.
		
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Nothing at all, as I have said before, there are many sound and sane ponies on the market, going for peanuts. Nothing wrong with pts one which is not safe for the job it was trained for.


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## Zebedee (3 November 2010)

R2R said:



			Are you 100% serious?
		
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Yes I am. Unless the owners take him back & make him 100% their responsibility there is only one way forward. I am so impressed by those who have  left instructions in their wills that 'quirky' horses currently in their care must be PTS if they should pre-decease them. What wonderful owners, who obviously have the welfare of the animal at the forefront of their decision making process.
I was also serious that you would have to deal with the practicalities though.


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## singing dawg (3 November 2010)

have not read whole of this thread but got the gist of it. I had a pony which did exactly the same, just suddenly started bolting ridden or in hand.  A few weeks after this started he ras straight into a stone barn and broke his neck killing himself outright. PM showed he had a brain tumour.


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## somethingorother (3 November 2010)

I think this pony has seriously lacked a proper education in the past. It clearly lives it's life in fear (not saying it has any reason to) since it is difficult to handle and the ground and to catch. I wouldn't even be sitting on a pony which was too nervous to do groundwork with. I'm not surprised it bolts. It obviously needs a lot of desentising work, as a minimum, before anyone else gets on it. Then long reining for a long time and in various situations, with people shaking bags etc at it (only in a safe enclosed environment) until there is no response. 

If the pony is **** scared of everything on the ground, how can you expect it not to be under saddle? 

As it is though, this pony is not yours, and no one seems to want to put in the time for the long haul. So maybe it's better for everyone if it is PTS. What a shame though. I also agree, maybe there is another underlying problem, but you have to eliminate the other causes (obvious fear or pain) before you can establish whether it is too deep seated to be fixed. I can see both sides.


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## brigantia (3 November 2010)

As it is though, this pony is not yours, and no one seems to want to put in the time for the long haul. So maybe it's better for everyone if it is PTS. What a shame though. I also agree, maybe there is another underlying problem, but you have to eliminate the other causes (obvious fear or pain) before you can establish whether it is too deep seated to be fixed. I can see both sides.
		
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This sums up my thoughts on the matter, too.

I can perfectly understand why the OP doesn't want to put a child at risk. On the other hand, no horse or pony is 100% safe and riding any horse or pony is a high risk sport. At the end of the day they are all prey animals with a powerful flight instinct. Perhaps this pony could be made safer with the appropriate reschooling. But it would seem to be the owner's responsibility to take responsibility for this, not the OP's.

There may be other factors involved, too. What is the pony being fed? Does it get enough turn out? How long has it been at its present home? Has it settled in? Etc. etc. 

A child's life is more important than the pony's. Obviously. But still it seems sad for the pony, especially if it *could* be fixed, given patience and time.


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## somethingorother (3 November 2010)

I just re read my post. I am not suggesting that people shake bags at a scared pony until it dies of a heart attack. I'm saying it's obviously nervous and so needs gradually getting used to seeing and hearing scary things, without scaring it so much that it feels the need to run in a blind panic. Just felt the need for a disclaimer there before i get jumped on.


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## brighteyes (3 November 2010)

For me, this pony is actually perfectly OK as a pony.  It is what *we* want to do with it which turns it from being passed as fit to live or have its life ended because it doesn't conform to our requirements.  I find this is the only distasteful 'fact'.  Whether it is incurably quirky, in pain or just plain bonkers, it has no future as far as we are concerned.

Sad, but true.  Poor thing.

I have to say, though, PTS is really the fairest, safest and most sensible thing to do.  I don't like it, but it is.


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## Rueysmum (3 November 2010)

brighteyes said:



			For me, this pony is actually perfectly OK as a pony.  It is what *we* want to do with it which turns it from being passed as fit to live or have its life ended because it doesn't conform to our requirements.  I find this is the only distasteful 'fact'.  Whether it is incurably quirky, in pain or just plain bonkers, it has no future as far as we are concerned.

Sad, but true.  Poor thing.

I have to say, though, PTS is really the fairest, safest and most sensible thing to do.  I don't like it, but it is.
		
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Exactly.  What a throwaway society we live in.


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## nuttynugget (3 November 2010)

I am disgusted with this post.
This poor pony needs to go back to square 1 and start over. It has obviously been pushed too quick and blown its head over big fences.
If we pts all horses which didn't do what we wanted them to it'd be a very sad world, what we must remember is what we are asking these horses to do isn't natural to them.
The poor ponies only vice seems that it bolts? retrain. 
Failing that, retire. 
Or use it for gymkana!!


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## Kao (3 November 2010)

The eff.
You can't just "retrain" a bolter! If you could hell, there'd be a LOT more riding horses out there.
Some just aren't and never will be suited to riding life. You can't expect every horse to never have a vice.

It's all assumptions. This pony probably had a good start to it's riding career. Maybe, just maybe, it has a screw (or 20) loose.
If I had the land, I'd gladly buy it. I love working on the ground with little ponies.
You're making the right choice if he "simply must" be a riding pony :/ The market is dead for little pony companions. You can't just turn them out and expect them not to get lami or someone little pony prone


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## Rueysmum (3 November 2010)

The thing that really gets to me about this post is that nobody seems to have bothered to investigate why this 12.2 (or is it 13.2?) pony "bolts".  The "shoot it" brigade are all too keen to jump on the "kill it" bandwagon without having any real understanding as to:

a)  what it does
b)  why it does it
c)  and if, indeed, it actually does it

I'm not saying the pony should not be put down if it transpires that it has an unsurmountable problem, it's just that it seems to me that nobody can be bothered to investigate the situation further.  The pony is surplus to requirements/doesn't fit in with the current set-up and hence should be dispatched forthwith.

Great.


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## bryngelenponies (3 November 2010)

Aren't there any homes that would only want a companion and that would never attempt to ride the pony? I would be perfectly content to have a companion that couldn't be ridden- if I needed one I'd take him. I've had my section a mare since she was 2yo, she's now 7yo and only this summer I thought I'd try lunging her. I only wanter to lunge her for her to 'learn something new,' I would never ride her or be tempted to- she's purely a companion. Isn't there anyone else who feels the same as I do?


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## Kaylum (3 November 2010)

Have you advertised as a free hunting pony.


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## cbmcts (3 November 2010)

Rueysmum said:



			The thing that really gets to me about this post is that nobody seems to have bothered to investigate why this 12.2 (or is it 13.2?) pony "bolts".  The "shoot it" brigade are all too keen to jump on the "kill it" bandwagon without having any real understanding as to:

a)  what it does
b)  why it does it
c)  and if, indeed, it actually does it

I'm not saying the pony should not be put down if it transpires that it has an unsurmountable problem, it's just that it seems to me that nobody can be bothered to investigate the situation further.  The pony is surplus to requirements/doesn't fit in with the current set-up and hence should be dispatched forthwith.

Great.
		
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The problem as I see it is that "someone" has to provide the time, money and knowledge for this to happen. If the pony doesn't have that person to do it, remembering that at his size that his saleability/desireability is through being a childs pony then his future is uncertain - and JMHO, I would prefer to see him PTS rather than being potentially passed on and on for HIS sake.

The sad fact is that at the moment there are more horses than good homes....that leaves the difficult ones in a very dangerous position. Not only are they basically valueless but they cost the same, if not more to keep than the easy types. sad but true.

In saying all that, I have a horse who aged 14 has been retired for nearly 6 years due to his nervousness and the unreliability associated with it. It would make sense to PTS (and that will happen if my financial circumstances change or anything happens to me) but I choose to keep him as a rather dangerous if not handled properly pet. I have no illusions that while there are homes out there that could handle him, why in God's name would they want him? when there are a shedload of easier horses available....and the ones who want him because he's a big flashy Welshie with movement to die for (when he's not having a meltdown, going over backwards, throwing himself under moving vehicles or running over people in panic) seem to hugely overestimate their abilities and end up scaring the horse even more - and that is when he is lethal - along with themselves. 

On the last yard he was on I was villified when I mentioned PTS because "there's nothing wrong with him" despite the fact that 90% of the people there were terrified of him. I could give him to a charity or give him away  Tell me how that's fair to an already nervous horse or to the poor sod who gets hurt?


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## Zebedee (3 November 2010)

Kaylum said:



			Have you advertised as a free hunting pony.
		
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Why in gods name would anyone advertise a pony that BOLTS as a hunting pony? So he could kill someones child in the hunting field instead of in the school perhaps?

cbmcts - excellent post. I wish more people would take on board that just because they love their unrideable horse, there is no conceiveable reason why anyone else should.


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## jjbarney (3 November 2010)

cbmcts - ditto - excellent post - summed up in a nutshell!


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## scarlet jacket (3 November 2010)

very tough situation to be in.
if its a threat to safety then its certainly an option but make sure you get its back and teeth properly checked first.


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## Flame_ (3 November 2010)

Rueysmum said:



			The thing that really gets to me about this post is that nobody seems to have bothered to investigate why this 12.2 (or is it 13.2?) pony "bolts".  The "shoot it" brigade are all too keen to jump on the "kill it" bandwagon without having any real understanding as to:

a)  what it does
b)  why it does it
c)  and if, indeed, it actually does it

I'm not saying the pony should not be put down if it transpires that it has an unsurmountable problem, it's just that it seems to me that nobody can be bothered to investigate the situation further.  The pony is surplus to requirements/doesn't fit in with the current set-up and hence should be dispatched forthwith.

Great.
		
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a) I think its been mentioned a few times *IT BOLTS!!!*

b) Have you ever tried understanding a horse's reasoning for legging it for no apparent reason? I have, its soul destroying, sends you round the bend and is totally futile as the only "person" that might know why the horse is bolting is the horse and they are not going to explain it to you any time soon. In the mean time while you are on this quest for understanding, you collect injuries and it is so not worth it!

c) So the OP might be lying or wrong. This is always the case with stuff on the internet but people can only respond to the information they are given, taking into consideration that the OP is a regular, sane poster without a history of posting mad made up stuff.


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## Lobelia_Overhill (4 November 2010)

I haven't read the whole thread, cos I'm getting tired now, but this reminded me of something ...




R2R said:



			The pony is nervous on the ground and wont be caught in the field,and therefore is hard to work with.

If I said he would jump a jump three times, then duck out at the fourth for no reason like he had never seen it before and run off - I dont really know what to say other than it is a tough one?
		
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I can't remember if it was on HHO or where, but someone had a mare who would spook randomly despite being ridden in the same place, she was eventually sold or loaned to a family who's daughter was at veterinary college and she used the mare as a guinea pig to check her eyes, and found the mare had something in her eye that floated around, which was what was causing the random spooking ...

*shrugs*


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## silu (4 November 2010)

Agree very bad idea to send to a dealer or give the pony away to someone. If something costs you nothing do you look after it?

We got a 14.2 pony on loan as a companion for our horse who wouldn't be on his own. This pony had paces to die for and a huge jump BUT it had been difficult for a child to ride, so the owners sent the pony to a professional eventer to "sort out". Upshot of that was the pony had been terrified and came back to the owner in an unrideable state.

We had the pony for almost 10 years, a complete sweetheart and wonderful companion. Yes grownup daughter did have the odd shot on him when feeling brave, he could canter backwards at speed...no joke but she knew exactly what he was like and so he was never a danger to anyone.

Do try and find him a companion home where he could maybe do another job, if that isn't possible then PTS is the best option as I'd fear for his welfare and could see him getting beaten up presuming he continued to bolt for whatever reason. If I needed a companion, I'd take him.


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## nativetyponies (4 November 2010)

And STILL not one person has answered my questions........


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## nativetyponies (4 November 2010)

Kaylum said:



			Have you advertised as a free hunting pony.
		
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OMFGG!! 

Are you serious?


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## lexiedhb (4 November 2010)

Kaylum said:



			Have you advertised as a free hunting pony.
		
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... genius post of the year goes to..............


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## nativetyponies (4 November 2010)

lexiedhb said:



			... genius post of the year goes to..............

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Maybe she means it should be the Quarry?


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## Maesfen (4 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			Can I ask a serious question?

What is SO wrong about putting this pony to sleep?

Because i'm damned if I can see that anyone has actually pointed that out?

WHY does this situation need further investigation?
WHY should "experts" be involved?
WHY?

A short, and to the point reply will suffice.

Thank You.
		
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Nothing at all.
Because those seeking 'correction' haven't seen the devastation a dangerous pony can do, not only to the child but the families too.  When they've experienced life a bit more they might realise why it's so precious and this is one situation when you don't mess about; you do the right thing.



nativeponies said:



			And STILL not one person has answered my questions........
		
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See above! 



Kaylum said:



			Have you advertised as a free hunting pony.
		
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I think that one gets the prize for not reading the OP before getting brain in gear.  Madness.


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## lexiedhb (4 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			Maybe she means it should be the Quarry?
		
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LOL!!!!


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## Kaylum (4 November 2010)

hahaha have read it and it was a joke pmsl.  Like to see I have made your days.


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## lexiedhb (4 November 2010)

Kaylum said:



			hahaha have read it and it was a joke pmsl.  Like to see I have made your days.  

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Ummm maybe its just me but jokes are usually surrounded by smilies of some sort!!  dead pan humour is a bit lost when written........


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## nativetyponies (4 November 2010)

Kaylum said:



			hahaha have read it and it was a joke pmsl.  Like to see I have made your days.  

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yeah, riiight...


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## R2R (4 November 2010)

Nativeponies, you wrote


What is SO wrong about putting this pony to sleep?

Because i'm damned if I can see that anyone has actually pointed that out?

WHY does this situation need further investigation?
WHY should "experts" be involved?
WHY?


My answer is this. 

I am bloody soft around horses which is probably why I ended up with this pony in the first place.  

I was told by his owner that he could be spooky and flighty but NOT THAT HE BOLTED. It soon became apparent that he was a pain to catch - it took me an hour the first time, and he wasnt taking the p*ss, he literally saw me as a threat. 

We overcame that - feeding twice daily, brushing, not riding him, building up trust. The pony is out 24/7 on sufficient grazing so the feeding was more for the relationship build up than the fact he needed it. We then started riding him...I rode him and it is clear the pony has been broken/started properly, it does lateral work, works properly etc. My capeable 11 year old goddaughter, who herself has a spooky pony and is used to riding sharp ones, then started riding him. After two days he spooked whilst she was getting on and bolted around the school in a blind panic dragging my goddaughter behind. We had saftey stirrups on and they didnt break, but her body protector came off, her t shirt was ripped clean off of her, and she was pretty battered and bruised. I gave the pony the benefit of the doubt becasue it had just come back into work but unfortunately I work full time and riding daily was not an option. 

My friend then said she could take him, as she could work him more as she does her  yard full time. I went up to watch him be ridden after two weeks and he was going briilliantly until she put a set of three trotting poles on the floor - which instead of pony trotting over, he jumped, spooked, and ran off, unseating rider and bolting. I got on it to walk him off as child landed on her head and he then did the EXACT same thing with me - shot forward, and literally went from underneath me. 

Pony then was going fine, in consistent work, had had join up done with it/saddle etc all checked, teeth fine. Was on the heath with a sane, sensible hore, spooked, and ran off, full pelt accross the heath with poor child terrified but trying to stop. It ran through an elderly gentleman which blocked the path and she only pulled it up by grabbing its bit rings. 

I am told he has done it once more since the heath with a small adult on him &#8211; same thing, spooking then bolting. 

I know the difference between bolting and running off and this is bolting. 

I now have the pony back at my yard, uninterested owners, no proper rider, can&#8217;t catch it, I work full time in London and cannot devote time to this pony as well as rehabbing an ex racer and riding my wb to keep him competing. I will not sell on a pony unless I can be 100% sure they can fix the problem. I am unsure of suggesting a nine year old pony be a companion  because of the welfare implications (you cant catch it/money for all is tight/I am sure the pony would end up being ridden and don&#8217;t want the risk of that on my shoulders) 

So &#8211; what would you do? I think PTS is the fairest, most sensible option...that or I keep a pony I can&#8217;t catch and will not put a child on my yard (I have the land) and just stomach the costs etc...I don&#8217;t see what my options are? 

I came on here to ask what people thought &#8211; I think it is a bit of a dilemma to be honest and asking an opinion is fair, and so are the contrasting opinions given. However, just becasue I think the pony should be PTS does not make me cruel, heartless, or whatever. 

Zebedee I will PM you &#8211; perhaps you have more time and we could work together, but I really don&#8217;t see what the solution is. 

C


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## lexiedhb (4 November 2010)

C- just out of interest, what do the owners say???


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## R2R (4 November 2010)

lexiedhb said:



			C- just out of interest, what do the owners say???
		
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That they want him sold!


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## Groom42 (4 November 2010)

R2R said:



			That they want him sold!
		
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Great.
Don't want to risk THEIR child's neck, but happy to make some cash and risk someone else's.
If that is AFTER you have explained exactly why it would be responsible to put it down, I despair.


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## Maesfen (4 November 2010)

R2R said:



			That they want him sold!
		
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Unbelievable and shocking that they don't realise the danger to any person, let alone a child and don't want the responsibility themselves but are prepared for your name to go through the mud as the one who sells it.  
I'd be inclined to give them their pound and have him put down for my own conscience I'm afraid.


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## FairyLights (4 November 2010)

Far better to be safe than sorry, as I said in my original post, how would you feel if someone was injured or killed? Its to be hoped that this pony has been PTS by now before any damage is done to someone.
Some years ago now, I bought an infoal mare, the sellers stated she'd hunted in the past and could be brought back into work. This we did after the foal was weaned,she was fine for a few days then threw a wobbly and the person riding her ended up in intensive care with blood clots on the brain. THe surgeon stated her riding hat saved her life,but still,these several years on, she has vision problems from time to tme because of it. We are all very fortunate she wasnt killed,and that no one else was,including me whoe'd been riding the mare. I witnessed the incident, the mare ,in my experienced opinion knew what she was doing,she wanted the rider off, and from what I saw I concluded that the mare had done this before. I had the mare PTS, the people I bought her off should have done the same IMO instead of putting her in foal and selling her on,if this had happened my friends life-long injury would not have happened. Unbelievably I was castigated by a local "horse-lover" for "murdering" the mare!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Still, thats how some people are.


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## Half-Halt (4 November 2010)

R2R i respect you massively for putting time into this pony in the first place. IMO he's been given his chance. You've been very fair & i honestly don't think a bolter, a true bolter, can be sorted out to remain as a ridden animal.
It seems something in said ponies head just isn't ticking over correctly. 

PTS.

I would choose companion if i had the land available so the pony could live out his days just being a horse. But it is not your pony & harsh as it seems, you don't owe him anything.

I would greatly advise against loaning or selling as companion/field ornament because sooner or later, as has already been said, some smart arse will come along and will chuck some tack on it to prove a point. Then sell it as a ridden pony.

You have the benefit of knowing this pony is a bolter & that you've tried to put things right. The poor sod that gets sold it eventually at some point in its life, wont know this as they wont have been told. Some people have no conscience or remorse and WILL do this to line their pockets.

Can almost guarantee if it isn't PTS some unsuspecting child will be sold this pony as a genuine kids pony and wont be told of any issues...and it will end badly.


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## R2R (4 November 2010)

lexiedhb said:



			C- just out of interest, what do the owners say???
		
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Maesfen said:



			Unbelievable and shocking that they don't realise the danger to any person, let alone a child and don't want the responsibility themselves but are prepared for your name to go through the mud as the one who sells it.  
I'd be inclined to give them their pound and have him put down for my own conscience I'm afraid.
		
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Just tried that - I offered them £100 but they said he is worth £500 and thats what they want for him!


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## Flame_ (4 November 2010)

Then the best thing to do IMO is explain to the owners that if you are truthful about the extent of this pony's problem, no one will buy it, it has no value. 

You could take it to an unwarranted sale which would not be the best thing for the pony but it might get them a small proportion of their money back from someone taking their chances buying in that way, however it could mean more people, most likely kids, getting hurt in the future so that is something for their conscience to weigh up. 

If they want it sold privately for the most money they can get with the problem covered up, there are professionals who specialize in this service, tell them to ask around and find one because ethically you disagree with doing this and you have your reputation to think about.


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## FairyLights (4 November 2010)

I dont suppose its possible to print off this thread and show it to the owners?


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## Groom42 (4 November 2010)

R2R said:



			Just tried that - I offered them £100 but they said he is worth £500 and thats what they want for him!
		
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And exactly WHAT do they base that valuation on?

I entirely agree that if they insist the pony is sold on, it is done away from your yard, your involvement and YOUR reputation.


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## Half-Halt (4 November 2010)

Groom42 said:



			And exactly WHAT do they base that valuation on?

I entirely agree that if they insist the pony is sold on, it is done away from your yard, your involvement and YOUR reputation.
		
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Agreed. Cut all ties with this. And if anyone asks you at any point what the pony is/was like, tell the truth.

Seflish, selfish people.


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## nativetyponies (4 November 2010)

R2R said:



			Just tried that - I offered them £100 but they said he is worth £500 and thats what they want for him!
		
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Offer 200 with tack

take pony to potters..you'll get around 150/175 and sell tack..outlay recouped


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## Amymay (4 November 2010)

R2R said:



			That they want him sold!
		
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How are they proposing to sell him?

Who do they consider are their market?

And what are their opinions on the bolting?


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## JenJ (4 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			Offer 200 with tack

take pony to potters..you'll get around 150/175 and sell tack..outlay recouped
		
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Best idea yet.

They get some money, you don't need to worry, and the pony gets to rest in peace.


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## Katikins (4 November 2010)

Ditto the Potters option.  That's the most cash they will get for him.  I can't believe how increadibly irresponsible some people can be!!!

R2R, kudos to you for the work you've put in, but again agree with everyone that if they insist on selling this pony ensure that your name/yard/reputation is completely disassociated from it!


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## *hic* (4 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			Offer 200 with tack

take pony to potters..you'll get around 150/175 and sell tack..outlay recouped
		
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That's a similar deal to the one I struck when the sellers of my bolter rang me in a complete panic after one of the other people who'd been to see the pony before me had rung them up talking of liability after their child had come off and been injured during the viewing.

That pony had been bought reasonably expensively by naive unhorsey parents as their child's perfect pony. Bless her, the child stuck it out for nearly two years but she kept getting dumped and was hoping to be a professional dancer and just couldn't risk any permanent damage.


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## TarrSteps (4 November 2010)

Obviously the best option would be to get to the bottom of it and find a solution.  But life isn't always perfect and resources are limited.  If the owners aren't going to pursue the problem, whose responsibility is it?  

If they're going to sell it, divorce yourself ENTIRELY from the procedure.  It may sound harsh but you simply cannot be involved.  I might go so far as to send the owners an email outlining exactly WHY you don't want to be involved and that your professional opinion is that the pony is unsuitable for ridden work and then save your copy, just in case.  It might be worth mentioning to them that if they do sell the pony and it hurts someone, they are opening themselves to liability.  I know Trading Standards only covers professional sellers but I suspect this would potentially tip into negligence, like selling a car with bad brakes and intentionally not disclosing the fact.

Unfortunately, I've seen a few situations like this (and thinking about them still make me sad and angry, even years later) and, much as people want to believe in the "Black Beauty" myth that somehow it will all work out, it often ends in tears.  It sounds like you've done your best but at the end of the day, they're going to do what they want to do with their pony.  It's very hard, but what can you do?


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## TicTac (4 November 2010)

Jess1 said:



			Thanks Blazingsaddles  - I just hope it get's considered.  

All the posts saying put him to sleep etc... really saddened me.  Like I said, horses are flight animals - he is only acting on what he naturally knows to do when he is terrified.  

Until you start looking deeper you'll never ever get a reason for why the poor pony is doing it!  There are plenty of options for him and a bullet wouldn't even be on my list - he's only acting on what he naturally knows and I just feel he deserves to be broken-in again, started over and given a second chance to prove what a talented pony he really is. 

I wish the owner all the best and I hope he lives to have a happy ending!!
		
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I agree. Pity somebody couldn't find the money to have a back xray. Sounds like a problem in that area. But hey ho, a bullet is the cheapest option!


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## Laura1812 (4 November 2010)

R2R said:



			Just tried that - I offered them £100 but they said he is worth £500 and thats what they want for him!
		
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Actually it is unsaleable - you are obliged by law (i think) to disclose dangerous vices (i.e. bolting). No one would buy that which leaves his value as meat money.

Even for meat, they are not fetching a lot at the moment.


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## R2R (4 November 2010)

TicTac said:



			I agree. Pity somebody couldn't find the money to have a back xray. Sounds like a problem in that area. But hey ho, a bullet is the cheapest option!
		
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I dont think you could call to question my finances simply from reading a post on an internet forum. 

Quite simply, he BOLTS WHEN HE SPOOKS...it is nothing to do with his back (which, by the way, I have had checked by my vet, at cost to me, as have his teeth)


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## Amymay (4 November 2010)

Pity somebody couldn't find the money to have a back xray
		
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Horses rarely bolt from having a bad back - it's usually because they're ******** in the head.


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## TicTac (4 November 2010)

R2R said:



			I dont think you could call to question my finances simply from reading a post on an internet forum. 

Quite simply, he BOLTS WHEN HE SPOOKS...it is nothing to do with his back (which, by the way, I have had checked by my vet, at cost to me, as have his teeth)
		
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And this we have had deduced from reading a post on the internet!!!


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## *hic* (4 November 2010)

TicTac said:



			And this we have had deduced from reading a post on the internet!!!
		
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Nooo, I think you'll find she's deduced this from having had the pony in her care and control for some time and having had it's teeth and back checked!

Incidentally my bolter also has nothing wrong with his back or teeth - his problems are all human-made. Most people would have shot him, he's lucky he was big enough for me to ride and that I was able to suss out what causes him to panic.


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## pipper (4 November 2010)

I Havent had time to read all the replies - but i get the guist....
i'll put my twopennyworth in...
One of my ponies is a bucker - he bucks when he spooks (big buggers) has done it all his life. Have had everything checked a million times. It's his natural 'flight' reaction. I cant see how it can be changed, dont think it can be??!! - its his NATURAL reaction. I have learned to live with it - but a child on a bolter....NNNNOOOOOO!


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## TicTac (4 November 2010)

Posts like this are very emotive and always get alot of discussion but we can only go on what we are told by the original OP. I am not disputing what the pony does but we may only know half the story.

I know that people reply to these posts with good intentions but sometimes think that problems like this shouldn't be aired on a public forum. At the end of the day the pony is the responsibility of the owner or person who is caring for it, however complicated that ownership may be.

What is the purpose of this post? To see how many people think that the pony should be shot or to see how many people come up with idea's about what may be wrong with it?

If I had to make a decision about needing to have my horse PTS, I would'nt ask a load of strangers on a forum if I were doing the right thing. I know my horse and I know it's circumstance. End of.

Harsh reply?  Yes!


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## nativetyponies (4 November 2010)

A lot of us aren't "strangers" TicTic.

The OP isn't one for telling "half a story" either

And why would your reply be harsh?


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## TicTac (4 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			A lot of us aren't "strangers" TicTic.

The OP isn't one for telling "half a story" either

And why would your reply be harsh?
		
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No, maybe not strangers in the sense of being internet familiar with somebody but do you know the original OP personally and have you seen the pony?

I am not disputing that the OP is not telling it like it is but am wondering what the point of the post is really?

Either she makes the decision to have the pony PTS or she works through its problems.

The reason I said my post maybe harsh is because I am going against the grain rather than agreeing and people don't like that.


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## R2R (4 November 2010)

I am also not that emotive - not my horse! My actual purpose was to see if anyone has anything further for me to try with him - however whilst alot of opinions have been given, I think you will note that over 22 pages people have only suggested I do what I have already done!


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## TicTac (4 November 2010)

R2R said:



			I am also not that emotive - not my horse! My actual purpose was to see if anyone has anything further for me to try with him - however whilst alot of opinions have been given, I think you will note that over 22 pages people have only suggested I do what I have already done!
		
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So what have you decided to do with him then?


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## charlie76 (4 November 2010)

Tictac- that is EXACTLY was I was trying to say a few posts back. No one can judge whether a pony should be PTS based on what a load of strangers on a forum decides- a would 99% of people who has replied on this thread do not know the pony or the OP.
Everyone would be up in arms if some one asked advice on a medical issue and a load of people who have not assessed the situation in person, advised for the animal to be destroyed without even seeing it! Its no different, its giving advice on an assumption.


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## *hic* (4 November 2010)

So how many more people would you put on this pony and in front of what witnesses to have it proved to your satisfaction that the pony bolts and is a danger to itself and others?


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## lexiedhb (4 November 2010)

So every time someone posts something on here the response from ALL should be " I couldnt possibly have an opinion, as i do not know you, your horse, or your situation"


DONT BE SO DAFT!!!


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## charlie76 (4 November 2010)

Its not about that, phew, exhuasting! For the final time, I have not, at any point ( look back on my posts and see) that the pony should not be PTS if the OWNER and the OP decided for themselves, using their judgement, that is is to dangerous and beyond help. What I have said is, it is not for a load of strangers, on a forum, with no knowledge of the pony in the flesh, no knowledge of its enviroment, no real knowledge of whats been tried with him and how the pony reacts (as no-one on here as far as I know has seen what the pony does for themselves) to advise the best way forward for the pony. 
I am sure that the OP is an experienced horseperson ( as I also stated earlier) and will be able to, with the agreement of the owner, to do the right thing by the pony.

ETA- of course you can have an opinion but it seems, following this post, that unless you agree to have the pony PTS then your opinion isn't worth listening too.


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## Katikins (4 November 2010)

Going by that theory, nobody should post anything on here then.  I posted for some schooling advice/ideas... going by your theory as no-one on here has seen me or the horse then nobody should have given me any suggestions that were in their opinion things that might help!

The OP gave all the details and was asking what people would do if they were in the same situation... to which people answered.  End of.


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## hudsonw (4 November 2010)

If the pony is dangerous, you have explored all options regarding physical pain, you can't afford to keep at a non ridden pet and you're not willing to sell or loan out as a companion as your worried where or with who he might end up then have him PTS.
At the moment there are so many good horses and ponies for sale so with his issues he's prob only worth meat money anyway.
So save the little mite from suffering in the wrong hands, being passed on from pillar to post and PTS.


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## lexiedhb (4 November 2010)

Head- bang- wall!

Charlie- I have no where stated that the only option is to PTS- however the OP does not OWN this pony and should not be lumbered with its rehabilitation IMO- the owners want to sell on a dangerous pony- lets hope a relative of yours does not buy it for their child.
Exactly what I mean Katikins!!


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## charlie76 (4 November 2010)

Not at all, but there is a huge difference between a bit of advise on a schooling issue and advising to end the life of an animal that doesn't actually belong to the OP.

OP- if the owner wants the pony sold and will not take your advise- simple answer, walk away- let them deal with it.


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## Amymay (4 November 2010)

Perhaps those people who are concerned that the pony may be put to sleep could now help the OP with selling it (as decided by the owners).

There will probably be quite a few viewings, and the OP will need some jockeys.  So for those of you that do have kids, maybe you could contact the OP to volunteer them.


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## lexiedhb (4 November 2010)

Ohhh me me me me me, can i?????? *waves hand dramatically in the air*... will bring 3 year old nephew too!!!


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## Katikins (4 November 2010)

charlie76 said:



			Not at all, but there is a huge difference between a bit of advise on a schooling issue and advising to end the life of an animal that doesn't actually belong to the OP.
		
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Not really when it comes down to it.  I could be very naive and inexperienced and try some advanced stuff which could potentially be v dangerous to both me and the horse.  The OP asked for opinions for what people would do in her situation... as many (myself included) have stated, we would PTS.  I would say the same to anyone who came along and said that their dog had started attacking people!  The only difference is by law the dog has to be PTS, the pony can be passed along to hurt someone else!


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## charlie76 (4 November 2010)

and to prove my point....some one has an opinion... lets take the mickey. Not really fair. At no point have I mocked any posts or suggestions that any of you have made.

Walking away from this thread now, OP, do what you think is right, I am sure you know what you are doing and will do whats right for you, your family and the pony.


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## nativetyponies (4 November 2010)

amymay said:



			Perhaps those people who are concerned that the pony may be put to sleep could now help the OP with selling it (as decided by the owners).

There will probably be quite a few viewings, and the OP will need some jockeys.  So for those of you that do have kids, maybe you could contact the OP to volunteer them.
		
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I bet you aren't flattened in the rush, AM


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## Weezy (4 November 2010)

All of those who have the opinion that the pony needs another chance or that it should be a companion.....hands in pockets, hand over £500 and you can have the pony, simple


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## spaniel (4 November 2010)

Well, after a long read I can see only one option given the attitude of many on HHO at the moment.  

This pony doesnt belong to the OP so its not really down to her what happens to it.  My advice to OP (dispite any opinion I may have about what should happen to the pony) is to put the ball firmly in the court of the owners but ask them NOT to sell it from my property as IMO it isnt suitable.


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## Empy&Treacle (4 November 2010)

charlie76 said:



			and to prove my point....some one has an opinion... lets take the mickey. Not really fair. At no point have I mocked any posts or suggestions that any of you have made.

Walking away from this thread now, OP, do what you think is right, I am sure you know what you are doing and will do whats right for you, your family and the pony.
		
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And TicTac, the most sensible posts I have read on here that have offered OTHER options, as I have to, but they have all seemingly been shouted down because they bucked the trend!!

The OP posted a way back about the pony being terrified of people and therefore you could not catch him - I've already said that there's half your problem - he is petrified of people and therefore even more so once they are on his back (or trying to get on) - hence the bolting.  In the wild he would not simply stand there and let a lion (or similer) climb on him and drag him down and then kill him - a very simple example, but that's all he is thinking.

There are people and ways to help with this to give him a chance, make him realise that the people in his life (ironically) are not going to kill him as that is currently what he is going on - he's a prey animal after all and should not be shunned for this, or for that matter called stupid or screwed up in the head!!  When he works well, he'll have just found a comfort zone where he is happy and he'll be able to offer the moon, but then suddenly something tiny will make his comfort zone insecure - hence the bolting.  It's simple psychology! 

I wish I had the time to take him off your hands and give him a second chance!! 

We all want what is best for the situation (in our own opinions) I am sure, it is just that some have different thoughts/ideas to suggest other than jumping on the band wagon. 

If the owners will not agree to consider anything sensible to investigate further then they should take full responsibility for their property and you should walk away at the very end of the day and as a very last straw!


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## nativetyponies (4 November 2010)

So, tictac, charlie and yourself have PM'd the OP with the offer of £500..roughly £165 each, to re-hab this pony?

very commendable.

let us all know what the outcome is, wont you?


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## Empy&Treacle (4 November 2010)

nativeponies... why don't you pay for the bullet then!!

...and personally I don't think the OP is looking for someone to buy him on here (somewhat against forum rules), or for you to offer him as for sale either - I beleive she was asking for OPINIONS not for a bitch fight!!!!


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## lexiedhb (4 November 2010)

Jess1 said:



			T

I wish I had the time to take him off your hands and give him a second chance!!
		
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Half the problem is that the OP DOES NOT have the time, as she has stated over and over.


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## Empy&Treacle (4 November 2010)

I am not disputing that, but there are people in the world that do it for a living and therefore *do* have the time!


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## lexiedhb (4 November 2010)

Jess1 said:



			I am not disputing that, but there are people in the world that do it for a living and therefore *do* have the time!
		
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Who, I imagine would want paying??? it is not the OP's pony, and its owners deny there is anything wrong with it and want to sell it- so are not likey to pay someone for their services are they??????????


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## Flame_ (4 November 2010)

Jess1 said:



			I am not disputing that, but there are people in the world that do it for a living and therefore *do* have the time!
		
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You ask most professional "horse fixers" "How do you cure a bolter?" and I doubt many will have an answer other than, "you can't".


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## Empy&Treacle (4 November 2010)

Well I hate to point it out, but that is not my problem!  I have offered my advice and opinions, you know - the sort of thing you do on forums.  

He belongs to the owner (oddly) and at the end of the day it will be up to them with advice from the OP. If they want him sold they need to work through this with someone in natural horsemanship who works with problem horses for a living... they'll have a HAPPY pony at the end of it!!

At the end of the day though and if you are so concerned and really want him shot why not get the names of everyone on here and make a petition to give to the owner!  

I can tell you my name would not be on it as I do not have blinkers on nor a blind fold before that remark comes along!!  I am just seeing it from the other side which clearly a lot of you do not agree with!


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## lexiedhb (4 November 2010)

Jess1 said:



			He belongs to the owner (oddly) and at the end of the day it will be up to them with advice from the OP. If they want him sold they need to work through this with someone in natural horsemanship who works with problem horses for a living... they'll have a HAPPY pony at the end of it!!
		
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So you think an owner who will not acknowledge the pony has a problem will "work through this with someone in natural horsemanship who works with problem horses for a living"

and you say you are not blinkered??


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## Empy&Treacle (4 November 2010)

My own personal beliefs are not blinkered, they're just different.  

I cannot control the circumstances - and nor can you - but I think if I was in the owners current position and the person who had him in their care came to me and said your pony needs shooting, he's dangerous, I might just listen! 

If that doesn't work then the OP has done all she can in her position and good on her for trying.  

This is not about personal differences and what everyone might think and then say about each others posts it is about a defenseless pony and person in a very difficult position!  I know if I had asked for advice I would have got tired of reading through the sly remarks between comments by now and given up!

Good luck to the OP, like I have always said... I hope there is a happy ending... other than the pony living happily ever after in heaven!


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## spaniel (4 November 2010)

""If they want him sold they need to work through this with someone in natural horsemanship who works with problem horses for a living... they'll have a HAPPY pony at the end of it!!""


All hail Natural blo*dy Horsemanship - god theres some boll*cks spouted on here.


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## Empy&Treacle (4 November 2010)

It's so unfortunate for you that it *actually* works!


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## spaniel (4 November 2010)

Jess1 said:



			It's so unfortunate for you that it *actually* works!
		
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YAWN


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## lexiedhb (4 November 2010)

Jess you only seem to be able to see what could/should happen in an ideal world with endless time, resource and money, and IMO that IS blinkered. IMO- natural horsemanship really is not the cure all for everything, if anything at all.


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## R2R (4 November 2010)

Jess1 said:



			It's so unfortunate for you that it *actually* works!
		
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Well if it works, I personally will send this pony to wherever you are for assesment. 

I bet you he will still be bolting. 

fyi he has done join up/roundwork ect. 

Maybe a carrot stick would stop him!


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## lexiedhb (4 November 2010)

R2R said:



			Maybe a carrot stick would stop him!
		
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I cant believe you havent thought of this before !


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## lochpearl (4 November 2010)

R2R said:



			Well if it works, I personally will send this pony to wherever you are for assesment. 

I bet you he will still be bolting. 

fyi he has done join up/roundwork ect. 

Maybe a carrot stick would stop him!
		
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What about PFs banana stick? ;-)


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## Amymay (4 November 2010)

R2R said:



			Well if it works, I personally will send this pony to wherever you are for assesment.
		
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Well, you can't say fairer than that.


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## TicTac (4 November 2010)

" Quote :- So, tictac, charlie and yourself have PM'd the OP with the offer of £500..roughly £165 each, to re-hab this pony?

very commendable.

let us all know what the outcome is, wont you?    Quote "

nativeponies, what are you talking about?


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## R2R (4 November 2010)

amymay said:



			Well, you can't say fairer than that.
		
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Offer is open to anyone...any takers? I will pay you to assess him, up to 2 weeks livery (he lives out) and then we can make a fair assesment. 

Prefer close to Surrey - by close I mean up to 100 miles away.


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## Empy&Treacle (4 November 2010)

lexiedhb said:



			Jess you only seem to be able to see what could/should happen in an ideal world with endless time, resource and money.
		
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Correct if it would give the pony a future!

I am not in this to argue and for christ sake, sorry but you lot need to learn to accept someone else's opinion - I haven't said you MUST do this that and the other, just said what I would do and my thoughts on the matter!!!  But you know, maybe i should just become a sheep and say "shoot it", follow the trend and be in with the crowd on here, why not.  

But then why on earth would I want to do that when it isn't what I believe! 

Put him to sleep if you want, I'm done if I am going to try and be helpful anymore!


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## spaniel (4 November 2010)

R2R has made an open offer Jess......are you prepared to put your money where your mouth is on this - youve told us what you would do.....are you prepared to do it??


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## Amymay (4 November 2010)

I'm done if I am going to try and be helpful anymore!
		
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R2R has said that she'll send him to a natural horse practitioner for assessment, though.

So which is the one you recommend?


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## Flame_ (4 November 2010)

TicTac said:



			No horse should be considered a lost cause untill it has been given every chance but there again that is not always possible and it often takes very special people to sort them out.
		
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The very special people with the skill and experience required to *manage, not cure* a pony like this are busy out competing their genuinely talented, adult sized, valuable horses. Unless you make it worth their while by placing this pony at livery with them at great expense, then they may be able to do great things with it but when they send it home would you be happy to send your kid off to have fun on it, just because (eg.) Mark Todd can get a tune out of it?


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## Flame_ (4 November 2010)

R2R said:



			Offer is open to anyone...any takers? I will pay you to assess him, up to 2 weeks livery (he lives out) and then we can make a fair assesment. 

Prefer close to Surrey - by close I mean up to 100 miles away.
		
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You'd be better offering that money to the owners then doing what Native ponies said ages ago IMO.


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## charlie76 (4 November 2010)

I would, and I am close to Surrey, however, I have been shot down so many times during this post then I am not sure it would be worth my while with the sarcastic 'told you so's'.
You see, the trouble with the internet is no one really knows anything about who anyone is or what they have done so they jump to conclusions that some one has no equine knowledge.

I am the manager of one of the largest equestrian centres in the south, I have almost completed my BHSI with help from some of the top trainers in the country and have helped produce many quirky, naughty and downright dangerous horses and ponies. One of which came to us as an unrideable 4 yr old,would bolt, spin, bronc, had had 5 different homes, left us having competed at advanced level BE and finished in the top ten at the olympics as a 9 yr old. Just one of many tricky animals we have had to deal with.
In our business we often are offered horses and ponies that are on the final line, we work with them and try our best to sort their issues out, don't get me wrong, we don't always crack it but with give them our best shot.

Not at all saying that I could help.


But, as its been pointed out, I have no idea what I am talking about! R2R, if you want to PM me with a few more details then feel free but if you think I am talking rubbish then please feel free to ignore me.

Oh, and I know I said I was walking away but The whole situation has my intrest.


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## Empy&Treacle (4 November 2010)

I love this and how the pony has suddenly become my responsibility just so you can all *hope* it back fires, that natural horsemanship does F' all just becasue I chose to believe in something that collectively you all think is wrong/pointless/boll*cks... whatever you want to call it. You'll never know unless you really try it!!

Unfortunately I am not even afraid to say no, not becuase I do not want to take the pony and give him a chance, but because I work in an office - do not have £500 to buy a pony - and only have the time for my one horse. Also, I live in Devon - a bit further than 100 miles away! 

There are plenty of people that don't work though or that work with horses and that have pocket-fulls of money and the skills to help... but then you probably don't want to hear that!


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## AshTay (4 November 2010)

In my humble opinion, and putting aside the issue of whether NH can cure him or not, the owners should have the pony back and give him a home for life as companion or field ornament. If they've lost their jobs/house/partner/sanity and this isn't possible then he should be PTS for his own sake. If they've got other ponies and no room then they should sell one of them in order to give him a home. Why should he be PTS or sold on to an undertain future because he's an "inconvenience" (which in this case means "unrideable").

If no ones willing/able to try to sort his problems then it's the owners that have failed and they at least owe him a life even if it's a life that a lot of people believe is worthless....


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## Amymay (4 November 2010)

I love this and how the pony has suddenly become my responsibility just so you can all hope it back fires
		
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Actually, you've been asked for a recommendation - not to buy the pony.

And I'm sure everyone on here whose opinion is PTS would be delighted to be proved wrong.  After all we are all horse lovers.

So who do you recommend?


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## spaniel (4 November 2010)

Absolutely Amymay.

This doesnt answer the OPs dilema though given that she herself isnt the owner.   She has been put in a very difficult situation in that if the pony is rehomed from her yard she is implicated if it continues to be 'dangerous',  she is implicated if she suggests the owners send it to an NH yard for assesment and it continues to be 'dangerous',  she is implicated if she tells them to PTS.

My original thoughts stand Im afraid, not ideal, but Id be asking them to remove the pony if they want to sell it.


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## AshTay (4 November 2010)

spaniel said:



			This doesnt answer the OPs dilema though given that she herself isnt the owner.   She has been put in a very difficult situation in that if the pony is rehomed from her yard she is implicated if it continues to be 'dangerous',  she is implicated if she suggests the owners send it to an NH yard for assesment and it continues to be 'dangerous',  she is implicated if she tells them to PTS.

My original thoughts stand Im afraid, not ideal, but Id be asking them to remove the pony if they want to sell it.
		
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Agree. All she can do is return the pony and explain what could happen to the pony if they sell it on (or rather, what could happen to a child who unwittingly ended up riding it) and that if they won't keep it permanently, or try to work through it's problems (explaining that this could be expensive and may not cure the problem), they should PTS.

Then it's the owners decision.


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## Empy&Treacle (4 November 2010)

Apologies, I read the post wrong! 

If you really want an answer then my honest suggestions would be Monty Roberts, but yes, he lives in America (not stupid) so Kelly Marks or any of Intelligent Horsemanship's Recommended Associates. That is where I would look for help!!


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## lochpearl (4 November 2010)

Jess1 said:



			Apologies, I read the post wrong! 

If you really want an answer then my honest suggestions would be Monty Roberts, but yes, he lives in America (not stupid) so Kelly Marks or any of Intelligent Horsemanship's Recommended Associates. That is where I would look for help!!
		
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He's at Towerlands on Saturday so he might be about with Kelly......


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## R2R (4 November 2010)

lochpearl said:



			He's at Towerlands on Saturday so he might be about with Kelly......
		
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Someone get me a number and I swear to God I will take the pony.


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## Flame_ (4 November 2010)

Trouble is, this pony sometimes operates without bolting, right? Monty Roberts might have a fabulous time with it at his demo showing what an easy pony it is, but do you really think that is going to make it dependable for a kid in the future?


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## The Bouncing Bog Trotter (4 November 2010)

Contact details for Kelly and Monty - http://www.intelligenthorsemanship....tegory_id,30/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,66/

You could also try Jason Webb - http://www.australianhorsetraining.co.uk/


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## Empy&Treacle (4 November 2010)

If you can get hold of either of them, it surely has to be worth a try! 
Good luck


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## nativetyponies (4 November 2010)

Jess1 said:



			It's so unfortunate for you that it *actually* works!
		
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Now I know you're bonkers

oh and i wouldn't pay for a bullet..i would want paying for his carcass..hence taking him to potters.

everyone wants paying..even the NH peddlers


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## HappyHorses:) (4 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			oh and i wouldn't pay for a bullet..i would want paying for his carcass..hence taking him to potters.
		
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Nice


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## Sandstone1 (4 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			Now I know you're bonkers

oh and i wouldn't pay for a bullet..i would want paying for his carcass..hence taking him to potters.

everyone wants paying..even the NH peddlers
		
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A real horse lover. (not)


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## nativetyponies (4 November 2010)

HappyHorses:) said:



			Nice 

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and your problem is what?


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## nativetyponies (4 November 2010)

itsmylife said:



			A real horse lover. (not)
		
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oh here we go again.....


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## PapaFrita (4 November 2010)

Jess1 said:



			It's so unfortunate for you that it *actually* works!
		
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It doesn't always work. In The Man Who Listens To Horses he describes a horse, a stallion, that no one, not even he was able to help. The horse was 'managed' needing 2 handlers on the end of poles but eventually had to be put down. 
Sooo, to return to my question that you didn't answer; if you had this pony and your methods did NOT work what would you do? Admit defeat and have him put down or pass him on to an uncertain future?


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## martlin (4 November 2010)

Gee, where is Papa Frita when you need her.
NP, you horse not lover, you!

It seems to me that whenever somebody shows some emotionally detached logic, they are called cruel animal abuser.
Seriously, surely it is better to get a few quid back whilst securing the pony's future than to keep shunting it from one magician to another whilst throwing good money after bad...

ETS: PF, you are like the Ginny


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## Maesfen (4 November 2010)

Well said Martlin.


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## BeckyX (4 November 2010)

No offense intended here!! But isnt it fair to give the pony a chance, just because a rider has guts doesnt mean that they are a good rider, or effective why not look around for a light weight successful rider (competing wise) or even a successful instructor that has experience with difficult ponies. I used to ride a pony that learn to bolt because his owner was a  bit of a no common sense rider, gentle hands and a double bridle - solved. A lot of ponies bolt, i can not see this as a justifyabe reson to have it PTS :/ Also has the pony been checked for health problems?


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## Sven (4 November 2010)

Seems to me if you want some advice on a difficult subject, the last thing you should do is ask a public forum!  Might be simpler to canvas a few opinions from people who know the pony and your situation rather than letting several, well meaning I'm sure, people let vent to their very opposed opinons.

I haven't read all the posts, but I think most of them now are beyond helpful - often you know what needs to be done, you just need to go with your gut feeling and live with the consequences what ever you choose to do - there is no right or wrong here just a sad situation.


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## martlin (4 November 2010)

Thank you, I feel a bit better now


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## nativetyponies (4 November 2010)

My Bad, Martlin..i'm a not a not horse lover not..

sorry


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## martlin (4 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			My Bad, Martlin..i'm a not a not horse lover not..

sorry
		
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It's OK, I forgive you


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## nativetyponies (4 November 2010)

Thank You


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## FestiveBoomBoom (4 November 2010)

R2R said:



			Someone get me a number and I swear to God I will take the pony.
		
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Are these demo's free of charge or is that an incredibly silly question? OP whatever you do just make sure you don't spend any of your money sorting out what is essentially not your problem as you do not own the pony. The owners sound greedy and selfish so by all means, have it seen by a NH person but please don't do it at your expense, why the hell should you?


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## HappyHorses:) (4 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			and your problem is what?


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Almost every answer you seem to give is to 'take it to potters' this might be ok for you but it isn't ok for most horse lovers. If this is what you do then that's up to you but as this is a sensitive subject maybe a little more tact could be used?

So the pony has a bolting problem? I'm sure he didn't start his life that way. How he is today is either caused by something physical or how he has been treated in his life. He doesn't deserve to end his days in the slaughter house. 

If PTS is the only thing for this little chap then do it with some dignity and PTS at home.


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## martlin (4 November 2010)

I just wanted to point out there is no dignity in death.

What difference does it make to the pony? Do you think it worries endlessly that it's going to end up as Pedigree Chum as opposed to an urn of ashes on a mantelpiece?


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## nativetyponies (4 November 2010)

martlin said:



			I just wanted to point out there is no dignity in death.

What difference does it make to the pony? Do you think it worries endlessly that it's going to end up as Pedigree Chum as opposed to an urn of ashes on a mantelpiece?
		
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tut tut

how tactless of you


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## martlin (4 November 2010)

Sod it, I have been sitting on my hands for far to long.


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## Empy&Treacle (4 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			Now I know you're bonkers

oh and i wouldn't pay for a bullet..i would want paying for his carcass..hence taking him to potters.

everyone wants paying..even the NH peddlers
		
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I didn't want to bother responding to this, but felt the need to say that this post seems to pretty much sums you up! Who are you to judge me and my opinions on Intelligent/Natural Horsemanship, oh yeh, NO ONE


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## HappyHorses:) (4 November 2010)

martlin said:



			I just wanted to point out there is no dignity in death.

What difference does it make to the pony? Do you think it worries endlessly that it's going to end up as Pedigree Chum as opposed to an urn of ashes on a mantelpiece?
		
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I've been to a slaughterhouse.

I don't think for a minute that those animals don't sense the death around them.

But that is just my opion.

If you think that those of us who dislike the idea of our horses being PTS in this way are 'fluffy' then so be it.

I would rather be 'fluffy' than make an extra couple of quid out of my horses carcass. 

There is no dignity in death, but there can be in the moments leading up to it.


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## micramadam (4 November 2010)

I have been following this post with interest. 
R2R whatever you decide good luck. I can almost feel your frustration. What an awful situation to be in when he's not even your pony I do however understand your dilemma and why it may be necessary to PTS especially as he is a danger not only to people but also to himself. In an ideal world all horses/ponies with problems would be sent to be rehabilitated/reschooled etc etc and the time taken to find out the root cause of their problems. 
However, we don't live in an ideal world but a ********** cruel world where animals *and *humans suffer. 
If I had the land and the money I would take him off your hands as a companion for my lot as would a lot of other people who have expressed opinions on here. He could just be a pony without the pressure to perform as we expect them too. 
Whatever you decide, at the end of the day, it is your decision and while we all can offer varying opinions we are not the ones with the problem. 
Good luck!


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## WoopsiiD (4 November 2010)

I've tried sitting on my hands....

I owned a bolter many moons ago.
He too was very unpredictable.
He was 13.2-so small adult or childs pony.
He would only be caught if every other horse in the field had been brought in.
He was a biter, a kicker and quite frankly a nasty piece of work. I don't believe for one second this tosh that horse's aren't born evil. This animal had everything he wanted or needed from the day he was born. He was treated like a star. (I bought him from the breeder and knew them well)
He was never abused, or beaten.

I paid thousands and I mean thousands in having him looked at by everyone, vets, EDT's.....even NH! He was xrayed, he had new saddles-plural!

In the end I had to accept that there was nothing I could do to stop him bolting. He was just a nasty pony.
I had him shot at 7 years old.
I could not have te death of a child/small adult on my conscience-and yes I do believe that this animal would have killed someone.
And you know what? 
I don't regret it and I would do it again if I was ever in the same situation.
I love horses, always have and always will but I'm not so soft as to ever think that the life of an animal should come before that of a human.


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## nativetyponies (4 November 2010)

Jess1 said:



			I didn't want to bother responding to this, but felt the need to say that this post seems to pretty much sums you up! Who are you to judge me and my opinions on Intelligent/Natural Horsemanship, oh yeh, NO ONE
		
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and as you haven't said anything constructive, you aren't too hot yourself.


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## Weezy (4 November 2010)

WoopsiiD said:



			I've tried sitting on my hands....

I owned a bolter many moons ago.
He too was very unpredictable.
He was 13.2-so small adult or childs pony.
He would only be caught if every other horse in the field had been brought in.
He was a biter, a kicker and quite frankly a nasty piece of work. I don't believe for one second this tosh that horse's aren't born evil. This animal had everything he wanted or needed from the day he was born. He was treated like a star. (I bought him from the breeder and knew them well)
He was never abused, or beaten.

I paid thousands and I mean thousands in having him looked at by everyone, vets, EDT's.....even NH! He was xrayed, he had new saddles-plural!

In the end I had to accept that there was nothing I could do to stop him bolting. He was just a nasty pony.
I had him shot at 7 years old.
I could not have te death of a child/small adult on my conscience-and yes I do believe that this animal would have killed someone.
And you know what? 
I don't regret it and I would do it again if I was ever in the same situation.
I love horses, always have and always will but I'm not so soft as to ever think that the life of an animal should come before that of a human.
		
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Am so glad you posted your story   I too believe that some horses are just nasty pieces of work, same as dogs, cattle, cats, humans....not every creature in the world is born with a serene manner, it just doesn't happen.


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## horsecrazy25 (4 November 2010)

Firstly <<<<Hugs>>>> This is such a tough decision for you to make with no help from the owners.

Would it be worth trying to turn the pony away for a month or two and just letting the pony be a pony? And then in this time off you could go out daily and try and gain the pony's trust buy playing games and just having one to one time with the pony and then go back to basics when it comes to riding the pony again after his time off!.


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## 3DE (4 November 2010)

I hope you get a resolution soon - it must be so stressful to have it hanging over your conscience 

OP ignore the people with wild claims saying that you aren't good enough (9 yo who came in the top 10 at the olymipcs - a quick google will show that to be false - unless they trained Totilas and I really don't think that's true lol)


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## silver zaanif (4 November 2010)

WoopsiiD said:



			I've tried sitting on my hands....

I owned a bolter many moons ago.
He too was very unpredictable.
He was 13.2-so small adult or childs pony.
He would only be caught if every other horse in the field had been brought in.
He was a biter, a kicker and quite frankly a nasty piece of work. I don't believe for one second this tosh that horse's aren't born evil. This animal had everything he wanted or needed from the day he was born. He was treated like a star. (I bought him from the breeder and knew them well)
He was never abused, or beaten.

I paid thousands and I mean thousands in having him looked at by everyone, vets, EDT's.....even NH! He was xrayed, he had new saddles-plural!

In the end I had to accept that there was nothing I could do to stop him bolting. He was just a nasty pony.
I had him shot at 7 years old.
I could not have te death of a child/small adult on my conscience-and yes I do believe that this animal would have killed someone.
And you know what? 
I don't regret it and I would do it again if I was ever in the same situation.
I love horses, always have and always will but I'm not so soft as to ever think that the life of an animal should come before that of a human.
		
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I agree with you, they are few and far between , but they are out there, i can think of one horse a PRE mare that i knew from a foal and from day one she was evil, she savaged many people and grew to be huge 17hh od, and then to top it all off the owner declared that as the mare carried the pearl gene she might keep her to breed from as she was to hard to work with  madness. luckaly ( though i'm not sure for who ) she sold the horse in the end. but i would have shot it in a heart beat , you cant have a horse like that on your concience.


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## Ted's mum (4 November 2010)

just send the thing to meat or give away as a companion..simple really.


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## Flame_ (4 November 2010)

I don't think many horses are evil, but plenty are dangerous and cannot be cured of extreme behavior. 

There's no question, its a sad situation, but leaving sentiment out it, you have to put human safety before the horse's right to a cushy life.


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## SophieRIDSH (4 November 2010)

AshTay said:



			Agree. All she can do is return the pony and explain what could happen to the pony if they sell it on (or rather, what could happen to a child who unwittingly ended up riding it) and that if they won't keep it permanently, or try to work through it's problems (explaining that this could be expensive and may not cure the problem), they should PTS.

Then it's the owners decision.
		
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\
Agree.  I have to go out in the rain for evening stables for 12 horses and really can't read the rest.

The problem with curing dangerous horses is you can never be sure they are really cured.

I have one who hasn't acted out in several years, but I still don't trust her. And she will never leave my yard.  

I don't know what your legal ramifications would be in the UK but here in the USA the yard owner could very well be sued if she in any way participated in the sale of a horse that later injured the purchaser.  

Not to mention the remorse the OP would feel.

I hope the OP can convince the owner to euth the pony but if not she needs to have him out of her yard.

FWIW, even if the horse is kept as a companion by the current owners there is no way to guarantee he will not be ridden.  I haad drunken idiots climb into one of my fields and ride an unbroken 3 YO pony.  Luckily she just stood there


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## eatmyshorts (4 November 2010)

It's very sad that this pony has got to this stage & the general consensus seems to be to put it to sleep. It's all too easy to jump to that conclusion, & yes, for some animals, after all else has fails, it may be the responsible decision. But, i cant help thinking, that if this has been a loved & successful pony, he's not always been a bolter, then maybe he deserves a chance?

The repsonsible owner will look for professional help, before coming to the decision to end their animals life. 

There are professionals who can deal with problems your average horse owner can't. Bolters CAN be rehabbed. Even those apparently at the end of the road with their current owners. I know because i've done it & the pony in question is now out showjumping successfully with a sympathetic new owner. He as sold honestly, & with full history, as well as advice on handling him in the future so he didn't go wrong again. There are people out there who are willing to work with animals like this - i'd suggest advertising him on a website called Project Horses, where horses with similiar issues are advertised honestly, & where owners who have the means & experience to give them a second chance are looking to buy. 

Messed up horses don't tend to be born that way, things go wrong to make them that way. It's all too easy to just label a horse, a "problem". But, like it or not, generally humans are responsible, or at the very least, involved, with that process. Therefore, surely we owe them a second chance in order to work through their issues?


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## brighteyes (4 November 2010)

Is there nothing you can do to persuade them that they would be liable if he injured anyone, since they are fully aware of his dangerous vice, or offer to sell him from yours and disclose to all potential buyers that he is a serial bolter and likely to kill its jockey?  He'll never sell and they'll decide there is only one thing to do.

I'm getting confused as you seem to have invested money in him, they aren't letting you have him for nothing (and thus 'sort' his future) and yet are insisting they want £500 for him???  Sound as bonkers as the pony.


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## martlin (4 November 2010)

eatmyshorts said:



			where horses with similiar issues are advertised honestly, & where owners who have the means & experience to give them a second chance are looking to buy.
		
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Or they believe they can make a quick buck...


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## sophiegg (4 November 2010)

Havent read all of the other posts, so someone may have already suggested it, but how about trying Monty Roberts? Or Kelly Marks, i know a lot of you will say, they wont be able to do anything, but they have seriously worked miracles on some horses!
At least try it, i agree that it would be dangerous to sell it on, because of the responsibility you would have if something happened, but maybe its worth a go?! Better than just PTS?
xx


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## eatmyshorts (4 November 2010)

martlin said:



			Or they believe they can make a quick buck...
		
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Luckily, not everyone who proclaim to be "horselovers" are the same. The profit i made on rehabbing that particular bolter was quite simply a lovley big bunch of flowers from the owner who had been at the end of her tether & the peace of mind that a previously troubled pony now had a future. 

The website i  mentioned is run by someone i know, & i can assure you, the intention is not for making a "quick buck" but to allow horses to have a second chance. 

Ditto what's just been said by Sophiegg - there are people who can help. Richard Maxwell is another professional i would recommend - i have watched him work many times & he is a true horseman, with methods that really work.


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## eatmyshorts (4 November 2010)

Ted's mum said:



			just send the thing to meat or give away as a companion..simple really.
		
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I'd have thought on a forum like this, where people claim to love horses, we'd have a bit more respect & compassion. Sorry to single you out Ted's mum (well, NOT actually, after a comment like that). Am quite stunned by some of the comments on here so far, references to Pedigree Chum, jokey replies etc. I doubt this is a joking or easy to deal with matter for those concerned.

I'd like to poiny out, if we were as quick to dispose of the "problem people" that our horses have, then we'd have a lot more happy horses in the world.


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## nativetyponies (4 November 2010)

Has IHDG closed down for maintenence this evening?


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## martlin (4 November 2010)

I haven't suggested that it is the intention of the site owners to make a quick buck. It is a freely available site to view, though and you have no way of vetting people responding to adverts. The pony might end up with someone experienced and knowledgeable (doubtful, somehow I don't see people spending money on a bolter when they can get a nice pony just as cheap) OR it might end up with a smart arse who thinks they can make a quick buck.
The OP is a fairly experienced horse person, she hasn't managed to turn that pony around, how many more people (and children) need to be bolted with and injured for it to be sufficient evidence that the pony needs putting down?
It's not the second chance the pony would be getting, it's umpteenth...


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## eatmyshorts (4 November 2010)

I don't know the OP, or the pony in question Martlin, (although you seem to), & i am not making a judgement of her/him or her decision, as i know it must be a difficult situation. You say she is "fairly experienced" - would you not consider that a pony with issues so severe (if i remember right, has it bolted 4 times?) that most people seem to consider it only worth shooting, then to have been given a proper chance of rehab, then it needs to be in the hands of someone extremely experienced? Perhaps first port of call should be seeking that help? 

I am not getting at the OP, fair play for asking for help here, i am merely making suggestions as others have.  

Nativeponies, you wit is predictable, i'm afraid.
	
	
		
		
	


	





Incidentally, I'm not a member (or a huge fan,TBH) of the IHDG.


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## steph91 (4 November 2010)

Haven't read all the post so not sure if it's been mentioned, but have you tried to sell (for a small amount) the pony and it making very clear it is a bolter, or atleast offer or sell as a field companion to someone. Just thinking of things to try and save you having to pts


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## Roggybabe (4 November 2010)

What a sad story this is.  Not because of the Pony's behaviour but the solutions offered to the problem.

Put To Sleep???????

That sounds a most drastic and uneccessary action.  Surely as horse lovers you can come up with a better solution?  Have you never heard of retraining?

To begin with it appears to me that Human Beings have let this little pony down drastically.  It seems that nobody has taken the time to teach him about "Pressure and Release" and maybe they haven't bothered to explain what the Bit is supposed to be used for and how he should respond to the rein aids.

If you are truly Horse Lovers rather than Horse Users I would have expected a Forum like this to come up with some positive comments instead of running scared just cos' he is acting unpredictably at times.

If you can't get the answers here join us on this Forum http://www.richard-maxwell.com/cpage/richardmaxwell/phpBB3/index.php where you will be most welcome and if you keep an open mind I am sure you find the answers you are looking for.


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## YorksG (4 November 2010)

I have not resoponded on this thread for quite a while, but earlier on pointed out the glut of safe and sane ponies at the moment.
This pony is the size for a child to ride, it is a serial bolter, who appears to have no physical health problems. It is a danger to children who ride it, It should not be passed on to another child. I do not care how much work goes into it, it may resume its current behaviour in future. It may therefore kill a child. How can anyone expect it to have a viable future. And before I get the horse user/abuser tag, we have kept all our horses for the rest of their lives, until the quality, for them, began to deteriorate. We currently have one mare who retired 5 years ago and made the decision to carry on for another year as she appears to be quite happy and vet says is healthy at 28. I would indeed have aserial bolter shot if I personally did not have the space resources to keep it, or if I felt that it was not comfortable in its life.


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## DarkHorseB (4 November 2010)

I have to say I am amazed at some of the responses to this post!
The OP is in a horrid position particularly as the pony is not hers legally but she has responsibility for it.
I am a very caring horse owner and have kept many horse till their dying day with long and happy retirements. Many would say I am too soft but even for me this is a no brainer. A pony this small that bolts is a danger and an accident waiting to happen. If he was mine no question I would PTS at home. Being a responsible owner sometimes means making tough decisions unfortunately. The worst thing you could do is pass him on. Even if sold as a companion or given away there are too many unscrupulous people out there that may try and sell on eventually. Letting him go to someone else is passing the buck. I could live with myself having to PTS a pony with this history. I could not live with myself if it left my hands and went on to paralyse or kill a young child.


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## Lou23 (5 November 2010)

well this has sparked a few arguments.


Is there anyone on this forum willing to get on this pony or let there child get on it.

I have a ballsy, very balanced, quiet rider BUT i wouldn't dream of her riding a known bolter, not for all the tea in china!! My daughters life is worth more as is any childs or small adult.

To let this pony go as a companion is a nice thought but can you honestly say it won't end up somewhere, where they it was misunderstood and could be ok to ride or a local child doesn't try and get on it in the field for a joy ride. (which has been known)

If it was my pony or if i was in the OP's position then i would be advising to have it PTS assuming all the checks had been done, which sound like they have..

I think the OP was only asking for advice as its a very hard decision to make and advising someone else is harder still.

Good Luck R2R. Not a nice position to be in!

Best Wishes

Lou


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## Over2You (5 November 2010)

Roggybabe said:



			What a sad story this is.  Not because of the Pony's behaviour but the solutions offered to the problem.

Put To Sleep???????

That sounds a most drastic and uneccessary action.  Surely as horse lovers you can come up with a better solution?  Have you never heard of retraining?

To begin with it appears to me that Human Beings have let this little pony down drastically.  It seems that nobody has taken the time to teach him about "Pressure and Release" and maybe they haven't bothered to explain what the Bit is supposed to be used for and how he should respond to the rein aids.

If you are truly Horse Lovers rather than Horse Users I would have expected a Forum like this to come up with some positive comments instead of running scared just cos' he is acting unpredictably at times.

If you can't get the answers here join us on this Forum http://www.richard-maxwell.com/cpage/richardmaxwell/phpBB3/index.php where you will be most welcome and if you keep an open mind I am sure you find the answers you are looking for.
		
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Thank the high heavens there is someone else with the same mindset as me. I have seen countless horses and dogs killed because of fixable behavioural issues. I have also seen the likes of Monty Roberts, Kelly Marks, Chris Cox and Cesar Millan successfully rehabilitate a great many animals that would have otherwise been killed. I'm sorry, but the excuse of "it might relapse" or a child "might" get hurt does NOT cut it!! Ever heard of the concept of maintaining a retraining program? Or that retraining an animal also involves the retraining of the human?

Killing this pony would be the worst possible outcome.


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## YorksG (5 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			Thank the high heavens there is someone else with the same mindset as me. I have seen countless horses and dogs killed because of fixable behavioural issues. I have also seen the likes of Monty Roberts, Kelly Marks, Chris Cox and Cesar Millan successfully rehabilitate a great many animals that would have otherwise been killed. I'm sorry, but the excuse of "it might relapse" or a child "might" get hurt does NOT cut it!! Ever heard of the concept of maintaining a retraining program? Or that retraining an animal also involves the retraining of the human?

Killing this pony would be the worst possible outcome.
		
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NO the worst possible outcome would be this pony killing a person!


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## Natch (5 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			I'm sorry, but the excuse of "it might relapse" or a child "might" get hurt does NOT cut it!!
		
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Yes, it does. 

I'm a self-confessed bunny hugger, but I know that deep down no matter what I did to re-train this pony, it might have a relapse in the future be it due to lack of success of re-training, or a new rider who isn't 100% au fait with the retraining methods, or a simple mistake or relapse on the part of the rider - we are all only human, and the horse is an animal not a machine.

I'd hate for it to be me on the pony's back when that happened, and I would never forgive myself it it was a child in the saddle. Bolters, serious, and repeated episodes are just too dangerous to be reschooled IMHO. Retire and take responsibility, or PTS.


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## WishfulThinker (5 November 2010)

I think R2R should just advise the pony be given to someone who will save it.   Then that person can deal with the legal implications when it bolts and hurts someone - ridden or not. 

They will probably have a kennel full of vicious dogs they are trying to retrain as well before they take them out to run free in the park....... haha


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## firstponyMinto (5 November 2010)

Please just try "JOIN-UP"  

It can be done at home by yourself, for free!! 

& if it's done properly, the pony will learn to trust the "human monsters"  

Therefore creating a more trusting & manageable pony on the ground at least 

I think it's worth a try don't you??


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## paulineh (5 November 2010)

Roggybabe

I agree with your post about negative posts so have joined the Richard Maxwell one.

Others

In the title it says the pony is healthy. Would you ever thing about putting to sleep an uncontrollable child  NO you would work with the child and someone should work with this pony.

The owner no longer wants the pony but seems quite happy for the pony to be PTS this of course will cost money not just Putting to sleep but the disposal of the body.

There must be someone who is prepared to work with this pony.

I myself have asked 2 questions both do not seem to have been answered. 1) How old is the pony  2) Where is he at the moment.


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## benson21 (5 November 2010)

But on the other hand, would you consider keeping a dangerous dog, that in the end could kill, alive?  Because ultimately, there is a possibility that this pony could be sold on to a family that puts their child to ride it, it bolts, and the child is injured......or worse.


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## Half-Halt (5 November 2010)

The pony is NOT new to this game - he should know his job by now. He is not a childs pony nor is he a pony for an adult with any sense.

OP has already stated she's spent time and money trying to get this pony right and there is no improvement. I respect her for considering this pony, if sold on/loaned out could end up in the wrong hands and seriously injure or kill somebody.

A bolter will always be a bolter. He will always have deep seated mental issues judging by what OP has said about his inconsistency. He may improve but he will never ever be a safe childrens pony - his flight instinct is incredibly sensitive and will be impossible to turn off or tune down! So what job does he have apart from to be a pet (and not a very nice one at that)?

After unsuspectingly being sold a bolter when i was young, i sincerely believe it would be irresponsible to keep this pony as a ridden pony purely because there are humans that cannot be trusted to tell the truth. There are too many horses/ponies out there being mis-sold!

Any news on the owners OP?


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## Amymay (5 November 2010)

OP if you do decide to send him to someone for assessment I would suggest Michael Peace.

Good luck, and let us know how you get on or what the final decision is.


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## Amymay (5 November 2010)

Would you ever thing about putting to sleep an uncontrollable child NO
		
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How can you possibly make this comparison??  Clearly the situation is not the same.

One is a child one is an animal.......


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## Weezy (5 November 2010)

paulineh said:



			In the title it says the pony is healthy. Would you ever thing about putting to sleep an uncontrollable child  NO you would work with the child and someone should work with this pony.
.
		
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Crumbs, how can you compare a child with a pony?!

So many people believe they can rehab this pony, so again, let's see someone put their money where their mouth is...


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## Laura1812 (5 November 2010)

R2R said:



			Someone get me a number and I swear to God I will take the pony.
		
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DON'T put that poor pony through becoming a circus act for a paying audience. Do you really believe he can be fixed in an hour? These 'shows' are highly stressful for the animals and I just think if you are going to go down the route of trying 'NH' techniques, do it slowly and in a unstressful manner, where you are setting out for success with no time restraints.

Or, just have him PTS quietly at home.


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## DragonSlayer (5 November 2010)

steph91 said:



			Haven't read all the post so not sure if it's been mentioned, but have you tried to sell (for a small amount) the pony and it making very clear it is a bolter, or atleast offer or sell as a field companion to someone. Just thinking of things to try and save you having to pts
		
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Unfortunately, not everyone is as trustworthy as we would like. What if it was sold on again, no mention of bolting.....

Great, then someone like me comes along, does all the usual stuff, vetted, blah blah blah....gets it home, it bolts, injures/kills my child....nice.

Do a bit of digging and find it's past, I'd be out to shoot someone, once the pony had been shot...

Drastic? Sounds it, but in my experience, finding trustworthy folk in the horseworld is like finding a needle in a haystack...

With regards to the companion thing, again, thats good, but you just cannot guarantee what happens once you have no say in the matter anymore....

A difficult choice, but I know where my head would take me....


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## nativetyponies (5 November 2010)

benson21 said:



			But on the other hand, would you consider keeping a dangerous dog, that in the end could kill, alive?  Because ultimately, there is a possibility that this pony could be sold on to a family that puts their child to ride it, it bolts, and the child is injured......or worse.
		
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As i said in my 1st reply

pony's life...child's life?

no brainer really.

i'm convinced that some people who have replied on this thread have never seen a TRUE bolter or they wouldn't be so flippant with their advice.

a very good friend of mine was bolted with through a hedge..along a lane for 500yds, through a crossroads..luckily no traffic..up to the T-Junction..where she/they met a transit van....both her and the driver were in hospital for weeks....she had countless stitches to her head/back..and a badly damaged arm..

van driver was unfit for work for months

stupid pony got off scot free again!!..but this was the last straw for her Dad, he was shot the next day..

pony had previous bolting history...sometimes it would run for up to a mile..just take off.. no warning/nothing spooked him, he would just go..99% of the time she would bale out..and we would then have to go and look for the pony!!..all well and good in the 70's with the small amount of traffic then..these days the pair of them would have been killed long before the pony was shot!

so yes, my opinion is still the same..a childs life isn't worth the risk.


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## katpierse (5 November 2010)

I have a bolter that was caused cruelty. Beaten flipped in a gig not a nice experience. When i tried him out he was drugged. But i was a 16 yr old and felt i could solve any problem. He was sold to me as 6 he was 3. 

About 2 months in he start bolting, threw me alot. It was his naturally reaction ( which people tend to forget). I had a lot of "experts" ie other liveries telling me what to do. more ground work, rebreak him, even join up and parelli when none of these worked even have him put down. We had his teeth back and saddle done, checked every 6 months. About 4 years ago I tried to sell him, i had enough. Which didn't go well! 

I took him the yard that i worked on. My boss decided that he needed to be pulled in draw reins, Which show up the cause of his problems. He flipped over with her on him. his Hamsprings had been damaged with his first owner this had caused a back problem which had in turn been caused by a jaw injured! With the advise of the vet and my boss he when for more X rays and he had an underlaying fracture tooth, which before i get any backlash this means the surface of the tooth was fine it was under the gum where the problem was. 


He was turned out for 6 months, with the advise that if when i started to ride him again if he was still a bolter that i had he put down. 


Within the year he was winning every competion he went in.


I still do not trust him 100 percent. Neither does my instructor. If he is more than 5 months between having his teeth done,you can ride him but god help you if you pick up your reins. I do not trust him around other people, and i know that if i did ever have to get rid of him i would have to considered having him put to sleep which sounds harsh,but for his safetly and for other peoples saftly. 

But it also means the horse has no quality of life if handled by a inexperience handler.   

Until you are in the position of owning a bolter that has a list of problems you cannot 


I wish you all the luck with the pony OP. You may have luck with it luck i have but only you will know what is best for this pony as you handler it in a daily bacis.


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## lochpearl (5 November 2010)

R2R can I ask if the owners are paying you for all the work you have done and the upkeep? If not then I would give them a bill for your time, which they will either pay you or let you keep the pony in payment, then the decision is yours to make. 

Secondly, if you were to send to the likes of Max, Monty, Kelly, even Michael Peace, you would be spending more on the pony than the owners want for it. I have had experience with all of them and if I was going to use anyone it would be Michael Peace, he is very small - used to either jockey or work with the racehorses (can't remember off the top of my head) and he would give you a balanced opinion.


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## Steorra (5 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			i'm convinced that some people who have replied on this thread have never seen a TRUE bolter or they wouldn't be so flippant with their advice.
QUOTE]

This.  

A horse or pony that truly bolts is unpredictable, terrifying and dangerous.  I remember the day when a horse ran straight through the solid wall of our indoor arena.  99% of the time a lovely, trusting, people-friendly and apparantly healthy mare, but she just panicked with no obvious cause.  Another, a gelding this time, went straight through a barbed wire fence with his very experienced owner on his back.

With these horses it wasn't about trust.  It wasn't about lacking a good relationship between horse and rider, or an understanding of pressure and release.  They just lost the plot, apparently without explanation, and kept running until they hit something hard enough to make them stop.  

It is all very well suggesting join up, or groundwork, or teaching pressure and release, but when a horse has panicked to the point of running through a solid wall any prior training or even consciousness of the rider has gone out of the window.  And when a horse does this without any discernable cause? Sorry, but it would be madness to risk any child on board a horse like that.
		
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## lexiedhb (5 November 2010)

Oh dear god!! Natural horsemanship will cure all- Tosh!! it helps in some cases, not in others.... the OP has tried join up etc etc and actually the owners are not willing to pay for NH..... and the OP really shouldnt have to.

Would all of you be saying rehabilitate if we were talking about a dog who had savaged a kid causing serious injury???? there is no difference to a kid being thrown/dragged by said bolting pony also causing serious injury!


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## Katikins (5 November 2010)

firstponyMinto said:



			Please just try "JOIN-UP"  

It can be done at home by yourself, for free!! 

& if it's done properly, the pony will learn to trust the "human monsters"  

Therefore creating a more trusting & manageable pony on the ground at least 

I think it's worth a try don't you??
		
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The OP has already stated at least twice that this has already been done.


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## *hic* (5 November 2010)

My pony loves to do join up - makes bugger all difference to his levels of trust when that "panic" button trips in his brain.


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## cobgirlie (5 November 2010)

I'm 41 I've been riding since I was 3, I'm not the worlds best rider but I can do enjoy a few moments of speed and madness! BUT I've sat on my cob as he's gone into a *true* blind bolt. It was the most utterly terrifying experience of my life. I literally had no control, I just had to wrap my arms around his neck and tried to stop him. I was in a 40 acre field which is what saved my life, if I'd have been on a road I'm pretty sure we'd both have met a sticky end. I still 4 years on have flash backs and will never ever trust him 100% again. Luckily I stayed on (god only knows how) and he ran himself into the ground, but not before me having to rip his mouth open.  Once stopped I slid off him and cried like a baby. It took me at least 6 months before I could get back on without someone holding his reins. Another year before I'd hack out alone and only this year have I taken him hunting and to more stressful events. 

Imagine a child having to experience what I went though. A true bolt is the one thing I wouldn't wish on anyone.


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## honetpot (5 November 2010)

In my youth I rode ponies for an old fashioned dealer. There used to be a beatiful hunter type turned out in the field not ridden, bought by the dealers old Dad but it was a bolter.
 A friend who had ridden the horse when it was younger had a go at bringing back into work, it had been turned away for about 3 years. No stress, quiet hacks with others, only ridden with company,so far so good. Then one day....... Fortuately it was not too bad she knew the horse, was a good rider and there was plenty of space but basically the only way to stop him was to run him to something solid.
 There is a great difference between being 'took off with' and a true bolter. A bolter cares is so engrossed in the panic they are not aware of danger to them self and the rider may as well not be there.
 The dealers Dads horse spent the rest of his days in the field with my friend bringing him up once in a while to brush him.


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## spaniel (5 November 2010)

I too have been at the mercy of a true bolter.  Over 30 years on I still have full recall of the events of that day and physical problems that will remain with me until I die.

Those of you who have not experience the true terror of a bolting horse ( not just being p*ssed off with) are in no position to comment.


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## Jericho (5 November 2010)

I have been sitting quietly on the fence on this one because it is hard to say PTS any animal just because it cant be ridden but having just read so many of the stories about bolters I have to agree that the bolt response cannot be truly 'cured' as it is the horses natural reaction. No amount of natural horsemanship will overcome that nor will it convince me if I was riding that pony that it was now 'safe', let alone put my child on it. The issue is that if sold even with 'this pony bolts' statement who is to say the new owners wont sell, maybe unwittingly, and not reveal its history of bolting.

There is no way that this pony could ever be trusted to be ridden again by a child and if it cant be guaranteed a home for life as a companion (which sadly is unrealistic) I think my decison would be to sadly PTS - put simply it is not worth the risk. It wont know what is happening and at least it will never feel that blind panic again. More than likely it will end up kiliing itself during a bolting episode as well as causing any amount of injuries / deaths along the way.


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## SophieRIDSH (5 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			Killing this pony would be the worst possible outcome.
		
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No, killing or injuring a CHILD would be.


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## Over2You (5 November 2010)

benson21 said:



			But on the other hand, would you consider keeping a dangerous dog, that in the end could kill, alive?  Because ultimately, there is a possibility that this pony could be sold on to a family that puts their child to ride it, it bolts, and the child is injured......or worse.
		
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There is no such thing as a dangerous dog. There is such a thing as an uneducated owner. Same applies to the situation with this pony.

How any of you would want this pony DEAD without trying any NH first, is beyond me. I wouldn't let any of you within a mile of my horse. He used to appear as if he were going to bolt years ago, but never did. I re-established myself as the Alpha and that was that. NO problems since.


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## Amymay (5 November 2010)

Killing this pony would be the worst possible outcome.
		
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Are you able to help the OP, then, by providing this pony with a last, forever, home?  If you are - then I think that the owners are looking for £500 for it.  You could probably take delivery by next weekend........


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## Amymay (5 November 2010)

There is no such thing as a dangerous dog
		
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## nativetyponies (5 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			There is no such thing as a dangerous dog. There is such a thing as an uneducated owner. Same applies to the situation with this pony.

How any of you would want this pony DEAD without trying any NH first, is beyond me. I wouldn't let any of you within a mile of my horse. He used to appear as if he were going to bolt years ago, but never did. I re-established myself as the Alpha and that was that. NO problems since.
		
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i wouldn't let you within a mile of my family TBH.

Putting an animal over a member of my family..dangerous or not?..i don't think so..

And PLEASE..all this NH stuff..is rehashed good old fashioned commonsense..Which, i'm sorry to say, doesn't always work


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## Over2You (5 November 2010)

amymay said:



			How can you possibly make this comparison??  Clearly the situation is not the same.

One is a child one is an animal.......
		
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Well actually we are ALL animals. One belongs to the Equidae family, the other, the Homo family.


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## nativetyponies (5 November 2010)

amymay said:





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God knows where that poster lives..


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## Amymay (5 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			Well actually we are ALL animals. One belongs to the Equidae family, the other, the Homo family.
		
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Of course - yes you are right.

But really, how can anyone make such a comparison........


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## missparis (5 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			i wouldn't let you within a mile of my family TBH.

Putting an animal over a member of my family..dangerous or not?..i don't think so..

And PLEASE..all this NH stuff..is rehashed good old fashioned commonsense..Which, i'm sorry to say, doesn't always work
		
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Without reading a lot of this thread, I was in a similar situation and sent the horse to a NH trainer. 8 weeks later, the NH trainer advised that we put the horse to sleep. It doesnt always work and no matter how good a horse or pony is, if it is a danger to people, horses and more importantly, themselves, PTS is the most caring option.


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## Weezy (5 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			There is no such thing as a dangerous dog. There is such a thing as an uneducated owner. Same applies to the situation with this pony.

How any of you would want this pony DEAD without trying any NH first, is beyond me. I wouldn't let any of you within a mile of my horse. He used to appear as if he were going to bolt years ago, but never did. I re-established myself as the Alpha and that was that. NO problems since.
		
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I beg to differ - there IS such a thing as dangerous dogs and dangerous horses, and dangerous everything TBH.  All animals are *wild*, we domesticate them and statistically it is not going to work in every case.

As for establishing yourself as an Alpha...ARGH.  Have you seen the Pignon brothers work?  If you have I am sure you will agree that they are amazing, their horses will do anything for them.  And you know what?  They pooh-pooh this Alpha malarky....I quote from this week's H&H, the words of Jean-Francois...

"Sure, they're not stupid - THEY DON'T THINK I AM THE LEAD HORSE - but the closer I can get to their natural language, the closer I'm able to get to them."

It goes on to say...

"The world of horses is not soft and sensual like the human one", he added.  "It's hard, so my communication is not soft."


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## cobgirlie (5 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			There is no such thing as a dangerous dog. There is such a thing as an uneducated owner. Same applies to the situation with this pony.

How any of you would want this pony DEAD without trying any NH first, is beyond me. I wouldn't let any of you within a mile of my horse. He used to appear as if he were going to bolt years ago, but never did. I re-established myself as the Alpha and that was that. NO problems since.
		
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There are such things as dangerous dogs, granted usually caused by a humans actions but as someone who has worked in dog rescue for 20 years I can tell you we can and do have to PTS dogs very often due to dangerous behaviour. We do not do it lightly and certainly not without trying every single avenue first (and that does not include certain TV 'trainers' outdated and dangerous methods) but it sometimes is the only option.  As with horses sometimes it just isn't viable to keep the animal alive for the sake of human feelings.  Are you suggesting that all aggressive or dangerous animals be kept alive? At what cost to the animals quality of life or financial (and yes that is a HUGE issue for rescues) to whoever is responsible?

The OP has said she's willing to try, she's asked for help but so far not one of the 'NH' supporters has stepped up to actually offer anything other than outrage. Of course PTS is a last option but as she's tried almost every avenue and no one actually seems to be offering anything other than words, what exactly do you expect?


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## Spudlet (5 November 2010)

Animals can't be evil, as that implies they have the capacity to make moral choices and to understand all the implications of their actions. They can't. To state that they can is anthropomorphisising the pony. So is comparing the pony to a child. Animals react due to instinct and learned behaviours. Sadly, some animals just can't deal with the world we live in and do become dangerous. Some of these can be rehabilitated, and some can't be. If they can't be, they either need to be euthanised, or managed in a way they can cope with - which is not always possible.

Given all the info on this thread, the facts seem to me to be:

1. The pony does not belong to the OP
2. The owners seem to want to the pony gone
3. They aren't willing to take a low offer for it, so presumably they aren't going to want to invest lots of money on reschooling etc either. In any case, the OP has tried this and is getting nowhere.
4. The pony cannot be sold as it is - it would be a danger to anyone who rode it, and is also a danger to itself.

If a loan as a companion is to work, someone is going to have to take on the responsibility of checking up on the pony every few months and be prepared to take it back at any time. It does not seem as though the owners would be prepared to take all this responsibility on.

So, it seems to me that the best option is to sit down with the owners and set all these facts before them. They then have to decide on what they do. They can:
a. Invest in reschooling, with the understanding that this may not work, and the pony may never be ok.
b. Take on all the responsibility of finding a loan home, as outlined above.
c. Have the pony euthanised. This would be a sad decision, but it would ensure the pony does not end up being sold to an unsuitable home, which would place both the pony and its riders at risk.

If the cost of euthanasia and carcass disposal puts them off, slaughter may be another option to be investigated. This might be a more attractive financial option for the owners.


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## Laura1812 (5 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			I re-established myself as the Alpha and that was that. NO problems since.
		
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My horses know im not a horse and never will be. So in your Alpha mission - what did you do, just beat them all into line?!! What problems were you having beforehand and how did you go about re-establising yourself as 'alpha'?

I think latest bahaviour studies also show that ranking in herds is far more complex than just having an alpha as was once thought, anyway.


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## Amymay (5 November 2010)

amymay said:



			Are you able to help the OP, then, by providing this pony with a last, forever, home?  If you are - then I think that the owners are looking for £500 for it.  You could probably take delivery by next weekend........
		
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Just in case you missed it Over2You......



So to recap on this lengthy post.

OP has a healthy pony that is an habitual bolter.

Many opinions seem to be that PTS is the most sensible solution - to prevent harm to both the pony and any child that rides it.

However, many opinions have also been to give this pony a chance - with several posters stating that NH is they way to go.

Not ONE of you who have said he can be cured with NH have actually offered to help though.  Two posters in particular seemed to have the credential to back up their NH suggestions.  One does not want the pony, the other really has no experience of NH it would seem and just trotted the old lines of getting Kelly Marks or Monty Roberts to look at it (sigh.....).

I also suggested yesterday that those of you who genuinly thought the pony was not dangerous - and could be sold - should offer up your children as jockeys to help the OP sell it.

Haven't seen one volunteer - although of course you could have PM'd the OP.

There have been two offers of serious help on here.  But none from those of you who wish to see the horse rehabilitated.


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## MrsMozart (5 November 2010)

Ditto the comment re. some of these posters saying Do join up, etc. etc. not putting their hand in their pocket and taking the pony on....

Then again, if the pony is anything like LL, the owner won't let it go.

Little Lad is gorgeous and lovely and if left alone to mooch around a field or be pampered in a stable, he's grand and good fun and very loveable. Put a rider on and we don't know if we'll get a nice quiet plod or a whirlygig of flying hooves. An experienced rider can get on and he'll probably be okay for a while, but then he won't be. No rhyme nor reason.

He will stay alive for as long as I can afford to keep him: he's retired, on DIY livery, has all the checks and care that the others have, so is not a cheap option.

Come the day I can't afford him, he'll be put to sleep. My vet concurs. 

He will never, ever be sold or given away - I could not bear him to end up in the wrong hands with the pain and suffereing to him and to those around him that would ensue. I found him scarily fat and unfit and unloved in a field - he's not going back to that.


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## Mugsgame (5 November 2010)

Well crikey!  What a response.  I have been reading the posts with interest and was determined not stick my two penneth in until I read some comments about dangerous dogs - and certain dog trainers!

I genuinely believe the OP did not mean for such an inflammatory response as this, she is in a tough situation and from what I can tell, very much knows her onions AND has tried all manner of things to help him.  The facts are, the pony is currently unsafe to be ridden - and possibly always will be.  Realistically, who knows?  Someone may manage to cure him, but the day you know he is cured is sadly the day he is retired having never bolted in the meantime.  Every ride in between would be similar to playing russian roulette with a child's life.  So to me, that effectively rules out this pony from ever being used as a riding pony again, which leaves him with long term companionship as his other option.

Immediately, we already know he can be difficult from the ground (which could possibly be improved), but where are the 'life homes' for these animals?  Noone can guarantee this, due to change in personal circumstances.  A life home is a home until the pony dies, in which case, the owner would then have to pts.  He cannot be sold, or given away, unless in exceptional circumstances where the OP or current owner know for certain that the life home means this, that the new carers would never sell him and he was always to be a companion.  So we already know that the OP does not know of anybody who would be truthful in this.  Too many people would say they meant it, but the desire is too strong to 'try and cure him'.

I have a three horses with me, who have genuine life homes.  They will leave me when they have passed on.  One is 14, one is 15 and the other 22.  None of them are dangerous, but I do have one who cannot be ridden.  She was on loan to someone else, and eventually, yes, someone tried to.

The huge thing here, is the pony's welfare.  Not many people will happily stand the cost and time involved to truly, genuinely offer a pony a home for life and promise not to sell him on, or give him away - or what if (as effectively a worthless animal) he ends up in unscrupulous hands?  Neglected by either cruelty or ignorance - and my goodness, there seems to be an awful lot more of the latter around!

I think the OP is being a completely respectable and responsible carer in regards to this case, not many people will find themselves in teh same situation and I think she should be commended for her efforts.  Please don't try and pin a label of ignorance or uncaring owner on her, she is braver than a lot of people I know myself.

And finally, in relation to the dangerous animals statements, a couple of things.  This pony and others like it may be physically fit, but its not always down to handliing and past abuse.  Sometimes they have brain issues that cant be fixed or figured out.  A good friend of mine who posts on here had a good mare for many, many years - one day, over the stable door, it ripped her face apart.  She kept the mare, but when the time came that she could no longer afford the time (not the money) to look after it any more, the mare was destroyed, having lived a good life in a herd - but also having been a real danger to anyone, everytime they needed to care for her.  Same goes for dogs - not all dogs attack because of illtreatment or misunderstadning by owners.  They can be ill too.  

Lastly, I wonder if the poster on here who suggested Cesar Millan as a lifeline has ever seen him work in the flesh?  If so, were they witness to any of the animal DEATHS he has inflicted during his off camera training and dog whispering?  Just wondered.  Its very easy to judge what you think you are seeing, but sometimes there is a much wider picture.  Every cloud has a silver lining and all that, but sometimes, sadly, its the reverse.


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## cobgirlie (5 November 2010)

Mugsgame said:



			Lastly, I wonder if the poster on here who suggested Cesar Millan as a lifeline has ever seen him work in the flesh?  If so, were they witness to any of the animal DEATHS he has inflicted during his off camera training and dog whispering?  Just wondered.  Its very easy to judge what you think you are seeing, but sometimes there is a much wider picture.  Every cloud has a silver lining and all that, but sometimes, sadly, its the reverse.
		
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Lol don't even get me started....I won't even quote that mans name cos it makes my blood start bubbling!!!! Anyone who watches 45 mins of these so called 'whisperer' showbiz 'trainers' and thinks it's the true reflection needs their bumps feeling!!


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## Flame_ (5 November 2010)

Can I just say, I used Richard Maxwell for my "bolter". It was expensive and unenlightening.


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## Amymay (5 November 2010)

Flame_ said:



			Can I just say, I used Richard Maxwell for my "bolter". It was expensive and unenlightening.
		
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What was the result??  What did he have to say about it??


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## Natch (5 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			There is no such thing as a dangerous dog. There is such a thing as an uneducated owner. Same applies to the situation with this pony.

How any of you would want this pony DEAD without trying any NH first, is beyond me. I wouldn't let any of you within a mile of my horse. He used to appear as if he were going to bolt years ago, but never did. I re-established myself as the Alpha and that was that. NO problems since.
		
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Oh For GOODNESS SAKE. You haven't met many rescue dogs then? Or dogs which have been bred and trained to fight? Or bred and trained guard dogs? 

The IS such a thing as a dangerous dog. There IS such a thing as a situation which NH won't be able to cure. Read my username and guess what subject I'm passionate about. I have nothing to gain and a lot to lose by lying about NH not being a wonder cure all. 

No Alpha, equine or human is going to be able to prevent a horse from blind bolting. I truly believe that. And please answer me something: if you truly believe a human IS able to, would you expect a child to be able to do the same? Would you be happy to put a child back on this pony?

Natural, Traditional, Other.. there are many many many schools of horsemanship which _may _help this pony. But none which can guarantee that it won't ever bolt with a child on its back again. There are only 2 ways to guarantee that: Ensure that no child ever rides the pony again, or PTS.


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## *hic* (5 November 2010)

Naturally said:



			There are only 2 ways to guarantee that: Ensure that no child ever rides the pony again, or PTS.
		
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And of course the most reliable method of ensuring that no child ever rides the pony again IS to pts.


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## Natch (5 November 2010)

Laura1812 said:



			I think latest behaviour studies also show that ranking in herds is far more complex than just having an alpha as was once thought, anyway.
		
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Absolutely. The current equine behaviourist and most forward thinking of natural horsemanship schools of thought have moved on from alpha towards ideas similar to passive leadership and dynamic herd relationships; and to be honest, I am a little out of date myself, so its probably gone further on again since those


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## trewq (5 November 2010)

spidge said:



			To the fatuous all knowing people who have derided this, you may have misunderstood the punctuation and the phrasing.  It was put as a question, not a suggestion.  If the answer is no, then a simple no would have sufficed.
		
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Ok. No.


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## katpierse (5 November 2010)

People tend to forget that Horses like dogs , cats, lions etc are wild animals. Just because the grace us allowing us to ride them, they can be dangerous.

I made the decision to try and work on my horse. I was lucky it worked. Has not made him 100 percent, but he doesn't have any child need him without me around.


Would you put a child with lion or a shark??

I doubt it very much.

If the pony is dangerous on the ground aswell (Which is what the OP has said) it is no quality of life for the pony or like any handler.


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