# Totilas



## xspiralx (28 April 2012)

Apologies if these have been posted before but I hadn't seen a thread - they just popped up on my facebook news feed.

Just thought I would share them here incase anyone hadn't seen them and was interested...

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.448847391799369.124756.100000223352776&type=1

Thoughts?


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## Santa_Claus (28 April 2012)

i had stuck them on the Hagen thread. my thoughts are would anyone care to define the difference between LDR and Roll Keur as i most certainly can't!


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## FrodoBeutlin (28 April 2012)

My thoughts are that those are 4-5 pictures, a moment in time -- I am 100% sure that if one wanted, given enough time, one could take similar or worse pictures of ANY of the British team riders or anybody else, for that matter.

During the test this particular combination looked much more in harmony than ever before, the horse was ridden in a nice frame, poll high at all times and is indeed in a correct frame & poll high in several other photos in that same FB album.


Incidentally....... This is the reason why MAR is forced to school his horse at 6am and why so many restrictions have to be put on spectating at shows in Germany when Totilas is expected to compete.


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## Santa_Claus (28 April 2012)

see i will agree they are a moment in time but they do not look great! 

Although he does look a lot better and more settled as I said in the other thread the back end still does not match the front!


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## Lolo (28 April 2012)

Santa_Claus said:



			see i will agree they are a moment in time but they do not look great! 

Although he does look a lot better and more settled as I said in the other thread the back end still does not match the front!
		
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Has it ever though? I don't want to sound argumentative, I'm genuinely interested because when EG had him this was a huge bone of contention then as well? 

Think he looks more settled though than he has done


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## Santa_Claus (28 April 2012)

yes but Ed lets just say has similar training methods always has but of course again its LDR which the FEI has said is ok!


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## Foxford (28 April 2012)

Very grim. I suppose the horse was trained in this way - I don't know if Rath would usually use this method or he feels he has to, so he can get to grips with the horse? I'm sure someone else will know! 
If that was a moment in time with my own horse I would be mortified.


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## charlie76 (28 April 2012)

I think you will find the horse was trained using these methods with Edward gal.  The scores show it must be how the horse either prefers to work or how it is used to being worked.  Whether its right o


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## charlie76 (28 April 2012)

R wrong is another matter but like it or not horses at this level are not pets and the rider will do what it takes to get the goods delivered and lets face it, they weren't until toddsy


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## JFTDWS (28 April 2012)

I think it looks vile, but it's not like I know what I'm talking about...


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## pigsmight:) (29 April 2012)

I am not a dressage person but admire those that are. What I don't understand is why people let this whole totilas thing bother them quite so much, from my totally novice point of view the horse looks in good condition and im quite sure that he has the best care. So wether or not we like how he is being ridden surely there are more pressing horse care issues to worry about?. I am not trying to jump on my high horse and I am sure there is good  reason why people feel so strongly about this. It just seems a shame to be waiting for an excuse to be negative about this rider all of the time, he must feel hurt by all the bad feeling.


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## Peer (29 April 2012)

At the press conference the Rath family didn't make it a secret that they have implemented lot of the so called Dutch system. Klaus Matthias Rath : "We have tried to work with Totilas according to the German training scale, but it didn't work". And YES i can publish these kind of pictures from every rider in the world. Even Klaus Balkenholl


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## charlie76 (29 April 2012)

Hmmm.  Sorry to break the dream but I think you would find that Edward gal rode the horse using the exact same methods hence the reason for rath now doubt the same. It obviously works for the horseas the latest scores show. Whether its right or not to train the horse this way is another matter but rather didn't start it. The one thing I will add is I would not want to be the horses rider, he got slated when the marks were lower and the comments on the stallion shoe were bad, now he has adopted the training methods the horse is used to and getting the wow marks he is still being slated. Poor bloke can't win!


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## HuntingPink (29 April 2012)

Gal used rollkur and now Rath.  I don't care that they're winning, it's abusive and it's cruel.  As for it being a snapshot (quite a few snapshots with the same 'outline') he's using force in every single snapshot, hauling on the reins, including the curb and Totilas' head is yanked into his chest.  The outline is broken, the hind legs are trailing and the forelegs have the rollkur enhanced 'flash'.  No excuses, guilty as charged.


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## AdorableAlice (29 April 2012)

Why can a world class rider, connected to world class trainers not be able to fit a double bridle correctly ?

Pictures 1, 5, 8 12 and 13 all show the curb horizontal to the ground.  That horse, regardless of who he is, will be very uncomfortable in his mouth, curb groove and poll.


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## cptrayes (29 April 2012)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			During the test this particular combination looked much more in harmony than ever before, the horse was ridden in a nice frame, poll high at all times and is indeed in a correct frame & poll high in several other photos in that same FB album.
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Frodo there were lots of places that he wasn't poll high in the Freestyle I watched on youtube  from Hagen yesterday, and he was using one front leg markedly more than the other in the extensions too.  It was very clear in the slomo at the end.

He was much, much more in harmony though, wasn't he? I thought MAR had changed his riding a fair bit to accommodate the sensitivity of the horse and that likewise Totilas was learning not to panic at MAR giving stronger/more active aids than Gal used to.


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## Baggybreeches (29 April 2012)

I haven't seen the videos of this particular test but I do sometimes wonder whether with this horse they tend to 'wind him up' during the warm up so that the test situation is his 'let off' time. Not getting into the Rollkur or LDR debate I am on about the 'mental' aspect of it? 
FWIW I don't think the horse has ever had truly 'even' paces front and behind but there will come a point when another horse with a big front leg movement will appear and then the whole thing will start again.


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## brighteyes (29 April 2012)

The performance went better than earlier public examples of the Rath/Totilas combination might have suggested.  The acid test would be a few demonstrations of a test performed after HHO members had overseen his warm up in a correctly-fitted bridle and using orthodox techniques, perhaps?


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## Goldenstar (29 April 2012)

brighteyes said:



			The performance went better than earlier public examples of the Rath/Totilas combination might have suggested.  The acid test would be a few demonstrations of a test performed after HHO members had overseen his warm up in a correctly-fitted bridle and using orthodox techniques, perhaps?
		
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That got me laughing we should go to every show!


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## amage (29 April 2012)

So to really set the cat among the pigeons....Rollkur/LDR is abhorred and slated as a vile practice yet this horse is evidently WAY happier being ridden this way so is it not better to do what makes the horse happier? I am not for it as a practice but I equally think different things suit different horses and there is no reason why some horses wouldn't suit this system. It is quite extreme, but the horse looked infinitely more comfortable in the test that in previous excursions with Rath. I suppose what I am saying is that all horses are individuals...I feel Rath should be commended for altering his system to suit the horse. It can't be easy. Most people get to play around with trial and error in private...he is subjected to the opinions of everyone and anyone.


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## georgie0 (29 April 2012)

Can't see the pics!?


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## Posie (29 April 2012)

I know very little about high end dressage but he is definitely extending more on one side than the other, why is this not marked down?


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## angelish (29 April 2012)

Posie said:



			I know very little about high end dressage but he is definitely extending more on one side than the other, why is this not marked down?
		
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were are you watching ? 
i can't see the fb pic's either


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## Posie (29 April 2012)

Video is here 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XujVcUBdK2k&feature=youtu.be


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## angelish (29 April 2012)

thanks


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## samsbilly (29 April 2012)

Apparently the pictures are being removed from people's accounts.


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## intouch (29 April 2012)

samsbilly said:



			Apparently the pictures are being removed from people's accounts.
		
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That pretty much speaks for itself, doesn't it?  I haven't watched the wonderful test - I don't believe the end justifies the means, and how anyone can say that the horse is "happier" being ridden like this - happier than what?


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## viola (30 April 2012)

I saw the pictures before they were removed. The fact they got deleted speaks volumes to me. If they showed such a happy Totilas they would still be out there. 
Personally, I don't care if there are moments in time, snaps of the second or other such nonsense. It was not one picture, it was tens of frames in which the horse looked like it was being pulled apart at its mouth - how could anyone describe it as a humane training method for any horse is beyond me. 

I admit to be totally amazed when I first saw this horse live at Windsor Europeans some years ago but the more I learn about the biomechanics of those methods and the more I see him and others flicking their toes all over the place and trotting with legs wrapped around their ears I dislike it more and more. It's Circus not Dressage.


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## tristar (30 April 2012)

i always think ed gal looks like someone sitting on a chair when he was riding toto, and MR looks like he is carrying his head and neck in a too forward position, frankly watching him  ride makes me feel uncomfortable, toto is a seriously talented horse but i do not enjoy watching him, he looks to me as if he has been pushed too much too young, he would have looked more natural if he had been allowed to reach his potential in a less interfering way of training, he is after all part trak and goes forward naturally, i don't like his tight neck, i feel like i want to give that bloke a riding lesson! just how i personally see it, that's all.

it concerns me that people copy those methods, and as an antidote i shall now go and watch fuego in kentucky on you tube


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## galaxy (30 April 2012)

I was under the impression that this "method" of riding was now banned?  So why did no official step in?

I also think that they know they were in the wrong doing it, hence having the photos removed!!  Why else would they be trying to hide them?


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## charlie76 (30 April 2012)

Its not banned, its not allowed to be used in excess, its down to the official to decide what the excess level is AFAIK


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## Maesfen (30 April 2012)

amage said:



			It is quite extreme, but the horse looked infinitely more comfortable in the test that in previous excursions with Rath.
		
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Total ignoramus here but I do know when a horse is comfortable or not so perhaps the horse uses the tests as his time for relaxing his muscles from the cramped up rolkur rather as we would use walk as time out so you see a 'freer' and nicer picture?


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## galaxy (30 April 2012)

charlie76 said:



			Its not banned, its not allowed to be used in excess, its down to the official to decide what the excess level is AFAIK
		
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that sounds a bit wooly!

I was going on my knowledge from statements like this

"Last week, on February 9, 2010, the FEI (International Equestrian Federation) met to discuss the practice of rollkur and unanimously agreed that any form of aggressive riding must lead to punishment under FEI rules. The group defined rollkur or hyperflexion as "flexion of the horse's neck achieved through aggressive force". FEI rules already in place forbid the use of aggressive force in training and therefore the rules as they stand already forbid rollkur or other methods in which "head and neck position is achieved through aggressive force". 

The FEI meeting included veterinarians, welfare experts and officials from eventing, dressage and show jumping disciplines. The group also considered signatures from 41,000 concerned horse lovers, delivered by veterinarian Dr. Gerd Heuschman, who petitioned the FEI to rule on rollkur.

FEI committee chairman Frank Kempermann is forming a group to expand guidelines and better train show stewards how to spot rollkur, and further they may place CCTV monitors in warm up areas at some shows to ensure rollkur is not permitted.

Rollkur or hyperflexion is still very common in the Western riding world where draw reins are used to force the horse's head to its chest. Hopefully other disciplines will follow the FEI in banning this abusive training technique."

which makes it sound like it is flat out banned....


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## LEC (30 April 2012)

I HATE HATE HATE these type of posts where its pure conjecture and no one knows the full story. 

I always ask myself why was the video never handed in for the blue tongue issue with Patrick Kitel and Scandic? Surely if its a welfare issue then that video should have been handed into the FEI? Why was it not as surely footage does not lie unlike photos?

I see hundreds of shocking photos on this very forum - bad hands, poorly trained horses, poor horses etc I do not know the background so would never dream of commenting on them so I feel the same for this. 

Photos lie. They are one of the most easily manipulated things as they only tell you a snapshot in time. 

Frankly I am far more disgusted that 2 horses DIED in the GN while riderless than what is going on here. I think it all needs a sense of perspective rather than hysterical posting.

BTW I am not an advocate for Rolkur and I loathe extreme training methods but until I see the video I will not be getting hysterical about it.


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## PRE3 (30 April 2012)

Don't sit on the fence act now.


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## diggerbez (30 April 2012)

LEC said:



			I HATE HATE HATE these type of posts where its pure conjecture and no one knows the full story. 

I always ask myself why was the video never handed in for the blue tongue issue with Patrick Kitel and Scandic? Surely if its a welfare issue then that video should have been handed into the FEI? Why was it not as surely footage does not lie unlike photos?

I see hundreds of shocking photos on this very forum - bad hands, poorly trained horses, poor horses etc I do not know the background so would never dream of commenting on them so I feel the same for this. 

Photos lie. They are one of the most easily manipulated things as they only tell you a snapshot in time. 

Frankly I am far more disgusted that 2 horses DIED in the GN while riderless than what is going on here. I think it all needs a sense of perspective rather than hysterical posting.

BTW I am not an advocate for Rolkur and I loathe extreme training methods but until I see the video I will not be getting hysterical about it.
		
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^^ well said LEC 
i can't see the pictures, can't be bothered watching the video and know very little about dressage...but i am constantly amazed by the drivel spouted on threads like these...anytime i click onto HHO i see pics and videos of some dreadful riding that people have posted...but i wouldn't dream of offering criticism...i am not claiming to be perfect by any means by the way...but i wouldn't claim to know how to ride one side of a horse like Toto, nor would i suggest that i had a better idea of training a horse to this level...and yet half of HHO could clearly do it...


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## viola (30 April 2012)

diggerbez said:



			^^ well said LEC 
i can't see the pictures, can't be bothered watching the video and know very little about dressage...but i am constantly amazed by the drivel spouted on threads like these...anytime i click onto HHO i see pics and videos of some dreadful riding that people have posted...but i wouldn't dream of offering criticism...i am not claiming to be perfect by any means by the way...but i wouldn't claim to know how to ride one side of a horse like Toto, nor would i suggest that i had a better idea of training a horse to this level...and yet half of HHO could clearly do it...


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I personally think there is huge difference between novice (as most of us on here are in the grand scheme of things) riders posting photos and videos of their riding and looking "dreadful" (as you put it) and the pictures/videos of top horse and rider. Yes, often times the footage of lower level riders is bad but I don't aspire to emulate them. 

When I watch someone at the top of the sport I admire, support and feel invested in I expect to feel inspired, respectful and left yearning for similar level of skill. 

If after looking through pages of photographs from a top event I am left feeling disgusted, ashamed to support the sport and deeply saddened for the horse, then perhaps, as someone who is involved in this sport for a living, I have the right to voice those feelings.


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## diggerbez (30 April 2012)

viola said:



			I personally think there is huge difference between novice (as most of us on here are in the grand scheme of things) riders posting photos and videos of their riding and looking "dreadful" (as you put it) and the pictures/videos of top horse and rider. Yes, often times the footage of lower level riders is bad but I don't aspire to emulate them. 

When I watch someone at the top of the sport I admire, support and feel invested in I expect to feel inspired, respectful and left yearning for similar level of skill. 

If after looking through pages of photographs from a top event I am left feeling disgusted, ashamed to support the sport and deeply saddened for the horse, then perhaps, as someone who is involved in this sport for a living, I have the right to voice those feelings.
		
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if you don't like how matt ratt rides and trains then don't aspire to be like him then?? instead focus on someone like charlotte and that lovely test she produced and aspire to be like that... at the end of the day its a very competitive sport worth mega bucks and so some people will train in ways that might be distasteful...it doesn't make it right, i accept...but if it gets results then they will probably continue to do it...it happens in all equestrian sports- showjumping/eventing etc...i think that with dressage it is often very obvious that something unpleasant is going on as the pictures of a horse are quite obvious...the same wouldn't happen in something like showjumping where the horse's legs are on fire from a substance being put on them to make them more careful...or something being put down a boot for the same reason...it wouldn't be so obvious to spectators...again, its not right...but i think that its quite rich for people to come on here spouting when they don't know the full story...


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## Foxford (30 April 2012)

I agree with Viola - I know I'm no world beater but I like to think I train my horse in a kind and considerate way. If people want to win at all costs that's their business, but I don't have to like it. Speaking of rolkured horses winning, this is something I feel needs to be addressed in the sport - like others have said it will start seeping through into the lower ranks.


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## Foxford (30 April 2012)

Also, I know I don't know the full story but I feel as if what I have seen in the above links provides me with enough material to come to my own conclusion. Maybe one day someone will fill in the blanks, but until then I think this is wrong and I will continue to say so.


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## viola (30 April 2012)

Foxford said:



			Also, I know I don't know the full story but I feel as if what I have seen in the above links provides me with enough material to come to my own conclusion. Maybe one day someone will fill in the blanks, but until then I think this is wrong and I will continue to say so.
		
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This is my view too. I've followed top dressage, show jumping and eventing for the last 20 years and watch enough of it to build my opinion as to what inspires me and makes me want to be better and what does the opposite. 
If I think someone simply doesn't inspire me I don't bother voicing my opinions. However, I think every single horse person should say something if when they watch a top performer warming up they feel uneasy and saddened...


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## rhino (30 April 2012)

diggerbez said:



			but i think that its quite rich for people to come on here spouting when they don't know the full story...
		
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So only someone who has competed at GP level has any right to an opinion?


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## Hollycatt (30 April 2012)

I liked the performance a lot. It is much better than it has been and I think a lot of credit should go to MR. I am not actually a Toto fan, but I liked this more relaxed performance better than some of the other ones under EG.


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## Baggybreeches (30 April 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Total ignoramus here but I do know when a horse is comfortable or not so perhaps the horse uses the tests as his time for relaxing his muscles from the cramped up rolkur rather as we would use walk as time out so you see a 'freer' and nicer picture?
		
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That is what I keep saying but nobody seems to understand what I am getting at!


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## diggerbez (30 April 2012)

rhino said:



			So only someone who has competed at GP level has any right to an opinion? 

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not at all...i don't think i am explaining myself very well... what i mean is that none us (i don't think anyway ) have ridden Toto or a horse like him...perhaps he does actually perform better when warmed up like this? MR seems to have tried in the past to have ridden him in a different way to this and got completely slated for it... and now he is riding him like EG used to and is getting fabtastic scores...and he is still getting slated?! i can't help but think that if there was a better way of riding him and warming him up then the professionals and people who deal with the horse every day would a) know about it and b) use it? yes i personally much much prefer to watch someone like charlotte and valegro...which is my opinion...and personally i would rather see someone riding sympathetically...but i am also realistic enough to realise that with some horses this isn't always possible... i just find comments like the one earlier in the thread where someone (sorry can't remember who) suggested that they wanted to give MR a riding lesson...i mean, really?! perhaps said someone is also an international DR rider and, if they are i do apologise...but i do doubt it.... there is nothing wrong with expressing an opinion that you think something is wrong/you don't like something etc...but i do think that people get a bit carried away sometimes that is all...


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## Lolo (30 April 2012)

rhino said:



			So only someone who has competed at GP level has any right to an opinion? 

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No, only someone who was there and witnessed it has the right to speculate over a photo.

Photos are a moment in time. This can work in 2 ways. I have photos where Reg looks stunning from the early days- he looks like he's working in a far more advanced outline than he does at the moment, softly over his back and it's lovely. The video footage shows this is him about to do a 180 degree spin and try and exit the arena in the opposite direction, and the entire test was conducted with head tossing and 'working bounce'.

Professional [photographer's cameras can take 5 shots per second I think? So 3 seconds of this horse tossing it's head (or trying to spook at the millions of photographers hanging round...) means 15 photos. But there are so many photographers and an enormous school- say there were 4 photographers though who caught these 3 seconds of spook. That's 60 photos... Doesn;t take much to turn 3 seconds of 'trying to stop the horse from bogging off' into 'he does rollkur!'.

Until I see video footage, I am not going to judge this one


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## Charem (30 April 2012)

The FEI need to tighten the rules on Rolkur, as it stands they are so very grey. 

It says that hyper extension through excessive force is forbidden, but I imagine these horses are so sensitive in their mouths and have probably had it drilled in to them at home that it doesn't take an awful lot to get them to drop their nose's to their chests. Just because MK isn't sawing away at Totilas's mouth to accheive that, doesn't mean that its not rolkur. And judging by his hands and the curb's angle, he's not being particualry gentle with it either.

And to add, no I'm not an international dressage rider and I doubt I could walk a 20m circle on that horse but I do not agree with hyper extension/rolkur and have every right as the next amature to say so.


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## FrodoBeutlin (30 April 2012)

To be honest I think what MAR said at the press conference is spot on. He just can't do anything right with this horse.

To be frank in this sport there seem to be people who can do no right, and others who can do no wrong. Either you're idolised or crucified, whatever you do....!!!


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## Foxford (30 April 2012)

Baggybreeches said:



			That is what I keep saying but nobody seems to understand what I am getting at!
		
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I do! I think you are right. I also think this is a bit of a chicken-egg scenario. Is he rolkured in training/warm-ups so he feels freer and performs better in the test or does he need the rolkur to perform at all i.e. has he been so brainwashed by his training he doesn't understand any other way.

Either of these options is pretty sad whichever way you look at it.


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## SpottedCat (30 April 2012)

Lolo pro cameras can do 10 frames per second, so in 3 seconds with 3 cameras you'd get 90 shots, all from different angles, all showing the horse in different places in the arena (presuming it is moving!).


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## CalllyH (30 April 2012)

Any pictures of this horse since he left gal upset me. No rhyme and reason he just seems to have lost so much spark, even his coat doesn't look the same. He just seems dull in the eyes.


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## rhino (30 April 2012)

Lolo said:



			No, only someone who was there and witnessed it has the right to speculate over a photo.
		
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Everyone has the 'right' to speculate over a photo if they so wish. Doesn't mean they'll necessarily be right though.

And it wasn't just 'a' photo, was it?


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## Lolo (30 April 2012)

I explained my views entirely.

Rollkur is a disgusting means to an end, but I do not think you can call that without either witnessing it or a video... 10 photos in a second. 3 seconds of this, 30 photos. 4 photographers in different places, 120 photos of 3 seconds, and by shuffling stuff round it could appear like it went on for ages.

I want a video. Everyone has video on their phones nowadays- even my phone, which cost a tenner 2 years ago in Argos can video stuff! Why hasn't any actual footage surfaced?!


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## Auslander (1 May 2012)

I didn't see the photos - they had disappeared before I got to them. I have just watched the video of his test, and I liked what I saw. Yes, there were moments of inconsistency in the extension, where he flicks a toe out to balance himself - but this is a relatively young horse, with a lot of power and movement to manage, so I think he can be forgiven for the odd waver.
He looked relaxed and happy during the test (bearing in mind that no horse can be totally relaxed whilst performing advanced movements. There needs to be a degree of tension) far more so than the last video I saw of him. 
In the warm up, I sure there were moments where his chin was in his chest - it's a very easy thing to do with a horse that is schooled to this level. They get a bit exuberant and run through the bridle, and one strong half halt can very easily result in hyperflexion, even if you don't mean to. Its not impossible that it was a fleeting moment that the rider didn't even notice, but with the lenses of the horse worlds equivalent of the paparazzi poised to capture the slightest negative thing - it was picked up and consequently, thrown to the pack to pick over.
I am no more qualified than anyone else to comment. I've never ridden at GP level, and never will. I have ridden GP horses in Germany though (very very badly I might add!!) and I've felt how easy it is to overcook a movement on them. These horses are a million times more reactive than your average horse - so its really really easy to get it wrong and end up with it all going tits up before you even realise what you've done. It could be an over zealous blocking aid that resulted in hyperflexion, or the horse going bolt upright when the plan was to have a a crack at piaffe. Been there, done it, looked a prat...
I didnt see the pics, so I could be totally wrong about this particular situation, but I thought the video showed a nice partnership developing - and I'm glad that the horse is looking happier.


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## Peer (1 May 2012)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			To be honest I think what MAR said at the press conference is spot on. He just can't do anything right with this horse.

To be frank in this sport there seem to be people who can do no right, and others who can do no wrong. Either you're idolised or crucified, whatever you do....!!!
		
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What a wise words. But Frodo this all comes from people who just follow the leader(s), without ever attending competitions or knowing any detail about the way of training/warming up which every individual rider uses. They create their opinion solely based on what they read on the WWW.


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## rhino (1 May 2012)

Peer said:



			What a wise words. But Frodo this all comes from people who just follow the leader(s), without ever attending competitions or knowing any detail about the way of training/warming up which every individual rider uses. They create their opinion solely based on what they read on the WWW.
		
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Massive (incorrect) assumption.


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## Peer (1 May 2012)

rhino said:



			Massive (incorrect) assumption.
		
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OK Just tell me 

How many top sport competitions have you attended the last twenty years, how many times did you sit on the fence and watched these riders train at home ?.


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## diggerbez (1 May 2012)

Auslander said:



			I didn't see the photos - they had disappeared before I got to them. I have just watched the video of his test, and I liked what I saw. Yes, there were moments of inconsistency in the extension, where he flicks a toe out to balance himself - but this is a relatively young horse, with a lot of power and movement to manage, so I think he can be forgiven for the odd waver.
He looked relaxed and happy during the test (bearing in mind that no horse can be totally relaxed whilst performing advanced movements. There needs to be a degree of tension) far more so than the last video I saw of him. 
In the warm up, I sure there were moments where his chin was in his chest - it's a very easy thing to do with a horse that is schooled to this level. They get a bit exuberant and run through the bridle, and one strong half halt can very easily result in hyperflexion, even if you don't mean to. Its not impossible that it was a fleeting moment that the rider didn't even notice, but with the lenses of the horse worlds equivalent of the paparazzi poised to capture the slightest negative thing - it was picked up and consequently, thrown to the pack to pick over.
I am no more qualified than anyone else to comment. I've never ridden at GP level, and never will. I have ridden GP horses in Germany though (very very badly I might add!!) and I've felt how easy it is to overcook a movement on them. These horses are a million times more reactive than your average horse - so its really really easy to get it wrong and end up with it all going tits up before you even realise what you've done. It could be an over zealous blocking aid that resulted in hyperflexion, or the horse going bolt upright when the plan was to have a a crack at piaffe. Been there, done it, looked a prat...
I didnt see the pics, so I could be totally wrong about this particular situation, but I thought the video showed a nice partnership developing - and I'm glad that the horse is looking happier.
		
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this is the most sensible post on this thread IMHO


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## rhino (1 May 2012)

Peer said:



			OK Just tell me 

How many top sport competitions have you attended the last twenty years, how many times did you sit on the fence and watched these riders train at home ?.
		
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Not as many or as often as I'd like  

Seriously, I don't have to answer to you or anyone else. The simple fact is you made sweeping generalisations about anyone who doesn't happen to share your viewpoint.


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## Peer (2 May 2012)

rhino said:



			Not as many or as often as I'd like  

Seriously, I don't have to answer to you or anyone else. The simple fact is you made sweeping generalisations about anyone who doesn't happen to share your viewpoint.
		
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I never make general remarks and everybody has the right to disagree with me.
I just happen to know most of these riders, horses and their way of training.

Back to your regular scheduled program


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## lannerch (2 May 2012)

Cannot believe this thread is still running !
I saw the photos and I saw the test if that is really rollkur then I see no wrong!
Look at the horse he is looking loads happier, loads more relaxed as a consequence is again beginning to obtain those good scores. ( I still think they over marked him though ).
As long as the horse is happy what is everyones problem?


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## B-B (2 May 2012)

What marks would you give him?


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## rhino (2 May 2012)

Peer said:



			this all comes from people who just follow the leader(s), without ever attending competitions or knowing any detail about the way of training/warming up which every individual rider uses. They create their opinion solely based on what they read on the WWW.
		
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Peer said:



			I never make general remarks

Back to your regular scheduled program 

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I follow no scheduled program - again massive incorrect assumption. Why do you feel the need to talk down to anyone who has a different opinion? You might not like it being discussed, but that's public forums for you.


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## FrodoBeutlin (2 May 2012)

Come on let's all be friends  Peer is very experienced and very knowledgeable and an invaluable contributor to this forum, I for one greatly appreciate all the videos he posts and the forum would be a poorer place without him  

I don't think he was talking down to anybody at all, I don't think it can be denied that sometimes people on the Internet just 'jump on the bandwagon' so to speak (general observation, NOT specific to this forum!) --  I'll say it again, people tend to idolise certain riders and demonise others, I personally think (for what it's worth) that Toto with Edward was something else altogether and for me they will always remain the best, most magical and most harmonious example of dressage that I ever witnessed (and I will be forever grateful that I was allowed to be a part of that, as a spectator), but in Hagen MAR did a good job and Toto looked happier and more relaxed than I've ever seen him with him so credit where credit's due.


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## FrodoBeutlin (2 May 2012)

Oh and just to add that I thought MAR dealt with the whole thing in a very mature manner.

To be entirely honest, I'd MUCH rather hear a rider say "Things were not working, so we had to change our warm-up system and experiment with different ways" than having riders claim to be stalwart supporters of classical training only to ride just as deep "behind the scenes".


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## TarrSteps (2 May 2012)

I'm just confused about the whole thing, quite frankly. It's no secret Gal rides in a school that uses extreme flexion as a schooling exercise. When Rath went another way, he was making the horse unhappy, then they were slated for giving in and going back to Sjef, now he's being attacked even though people agree the horse looks happier in the ring. Can't win for trying. 

I think the point about the horses is that many of these individuals are really not 'normal', both naturally and in the way they are produced. Most people never sit on anything close because, quite frankly, if they end up in the general population it either ends in disaster or the horse is diminished, even subconsciously, so the rest of us can ride it! I don't mean to insult anyone but it's like taking someone out of their Clio and dropping them into a F1 car on the start line. Personally, I wouldn't know the first thing to do and I've ridden a few 'average' good horses - good enough to know I'd struggle with a REALLY good one. I know a very good GP rider, currently getting into World Cup finals, been to a couple of Olympics, who briefly owned one of the most famously 'rolkur-ed' horses ever. She sold him to the person who eventually made him a star because, by her own admission, she couldn't cope and didn't want to. 

You can argue whether or not competitive dressage *should* reward horses like that but it is what it is. Top level dressage has never been about making horses for the average rider!

As to hard training. . .well, two of the most famous examples of modern masters, men who are now held up as examples of classical training, were, if you are to believe people who knew and rode with them, VERY hard on their horses. They were not in it for the giggles and the good times.  

It's a mistake to assume all good riders are necessarily always sympathetic horsemen. Even the ones that tend that way are ambitious by definition and don't always make the choices other riders might make.

As far as horses always looking comfortable and happy. . .that IS a tricky one? Can everyone say their own riding always fulfils that criteria? No one has ever made a horse hurt with their riding? Really? I know it doesn't excuse anything but you know what they say about casting stones. Most of us put our interests and ambitions before our horses' best interests quite regularly. We just don't have people taking photos and putting them on the internet. 

Debate is good. I guess the question is what are we debating? As FB said, the heroes and villains often seem so arbitrary and but always related to reality. Also, many of the leaders DO have personal and political investment. This doesn't mean they're wrong but it does make it difficult for the rest of us to accurately assess the debate.


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## tristar (2 May 2012)

its true, it is wrong to harp on about the bad, but, why do i feel uncomfortable watching this horse?, i am here to try and understand why when i look at the almost best of the best i cannot enjoy what i am seeing.

i see a horse holding itself in a way that is in conflict with the very purpose of dressage, which should be manifested in the sheer physical beauty of the spectacle, i just don't see that when i look at this horse.

i believe the purpose of training is to render the horse rideable and condition it to deliver the demands of any competant rider, that is the proof of correct training, without the use of force, if competition dressage causes so much controversy then there are questions to be answered and debated.


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## Halfstep (2 May 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			As to hard training. . .well, two of the most famous examples of modern masters, men who are now held up as examples of classical training, were, if you are to believe people who knew and rode with them, VERY hard on their horses. They were not in it for the giggles and the good times.  

It's a mistake to assume all good riders are necessarily always sympathetic horsemen. Even the ones that tend that way are ambitious by definition and don't always make the choices other riders might make.
		
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Super super post.  Spot on about the "modern masters". I could add another name to that - rider in current competition who is always held up as a "classical ideal", who was by far the hardest on a horse in any international warm up that I've ever seen (including Anky and Patrik). 

I thought that yes, Totilas looked happier in the ring with MAR the other day, but MAR to me still doesn't look hugely comfortable on Totilas. The seamless transitions that we saw with Edward are not there. I think in the past, MAR was speaking German to a Totilas who only knows Dutch. Now, perhaps, both have learned a smattering of the other's language, but neither are yet fluent. He was hugely overscored at Hagen, but that isn't exactly a surprise considering the venue.


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## Ali16 (2 May 2012)

tristar said:



			its true, it is wrong to harp on about the bad, but, why do i feel uncomfortable watching this horse?, i am here to try and understand why when i look at the almost best of the best i cannot enjoy what i am seeing.

i see a horse holding itself in a way that is in conflict with the very purpose of dressage, which should be manifested in the sheer physical beauty of the spectacle, i just don't see that when i look at this horse.

i believe the purpose of training is to render the horse rideable and condition it to deliver the demands of any competant rider, that is the proof of correct training, without the use of force, if competition dressage causes so much controversy then there are questions to be answered and debated.
		
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Yes, but it's about what your eye has been developed into thinking is correct and your level of understanding of the horse and rider in question, no? I have been to Holland and Germany, on Olympic and world champion's yards and, yes, at first I was shocked at the different methods used, but once I got to KNOW the horses and riders, I began to understand the whys, hows and wherefores. I sometimes feel that people don't take the time to try and undsertand the reasoning behind a certain style of riding/training.

I have watched this thread with interest as my OH, who many, many people know is a sympathetic rider and trainer (training at GP, but no where NEAR the level concerned here) was targeted by someone taking pictures of him in a warm up three years ago when we first moved into a new area. They posted them on the internet and put a nasty caption relating to rollkur below. This could have potentially ruined him, but luckily we have a very good, loyal client base, who have stuck with us and for this we love them dearly. The picture in question was taken at a moment when the horse was attempting to run through the bridle during some changes due to excitement - he was feeling very, very well and is bred to be exuberant, sharp and expressive - occasionally he does have a small explosion. The OH took a rather large half halt to avoid a collision and sadly at this very point in time someone was pointing a camera at him. Had the whole reel of pics been published, it would have shown a VERY different story.The comments posted below still haunt me - people who don't even know us or the horse were passing very cruel, unfair judgement. We love our horses dearly and would never, ever knowingly cause them harm. 

*And I can confirm now that we have NEVER used rollkur - we would not know how. I am not avocating it either! Simply pointing out these things are not black and white.*

Regarding the comment about how trained horses should be ridable for any competent jockey, IMHO I really don't feel that this is the case. Yes, a horse should BEHAVE when another rider gets on, but performing in competition is another matter entirely. Riders have specific methods of training their own horses. These horses are SO highly in tune to their rider that they become ultra sensitive to the smallest movement that their rider makes. A tiny movement in the seat can trigger a thousand things. Horsemanship is, after all, about the partnership in question... which is partly why I love it - it is unique to the combination and no one else will be able to feel what you have. This is true from the bottom of equestrian sports right through to the top. 

So although I appreciate the need for debate, having been on the other side of all of this (albeit on a much smaller scale) I urge people to try and understand the reasoning behind riders choices before making judgements based on photographs or hearsay.


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## noodle_ (2 May 2012)

cant see the link???


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## TarrSteps (2 May 2012)

Also, Gal rode that horse for years - although not from the beginning, I think it's important to note - and put all the buttons in. Rath has certainly ridden other horses at that level but not many and not spectacular ones. Really not a fair comparison.

As to whether or not he should have that horse. . .anyone else ever bought a horse a bit above their station? 

Re modern competitive dressage being about developing horses for any competent rider, it really has never been about that. It's always been a sport/art for the elite with years to devote. 

' The purpose of dressage is to make the horse more beautiful.'

But then you have only to look at any art to see how subjective that is! I think Munnings is beautiful, Pollok not so much and Van Gough leaves me cold.


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## viola (2 May 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			Debate is good. I guess the question is what are we debating?
		
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Hmm, I asked myself this very question after replying on this thread and then reading other replies. For me it comes down simply to a few questions: do I watch the way the top of the sport is going (in some areas; there are of course many wonderful and positive combinations out there across the disciplines) and shut up as it's not my business and not my right to appraise it from the low levels that I am at; 

Do I agree with "the way it is", "that's how some top riders are" and "that's the methods which makes the champions" or even "that's how it's been done for years and some top masters were this way"...

Or do I dare to express the uneasy feeling I have when watching some combinations and training methods (across the disciplines). Do I dare to ask myself if it's good to support something that in the end makes me feel ashamed to be part of it. 

It happened that the story of Totilas really brought the issue into the light and made it visible to the wider audiences via emotional aspect of it. Same goes for better and wider education about equine biomechanics. I do actually feel sorry for Matthias Rath and don't think it's the actual riders that are the core of the problem here. To me it is down to something being allowed to happen or not. Supported by the masses, by the judges, horse owners, riders etc or not...

I guess that's my internal debate.


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## tristar (2 May 2012)

sorry,! but did'nt actually say that the purpose of dressage its to make the horse more beautiful, but more meant to express the thought that the beauty is a sort of proof of superior physical conditioning  visable during the work shown, and validades the methods used.

viola i find your thoughts spot on, you must have a very great understanding and empathy with horses!


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## Above&Beyond (2 May 2012)

WATCH BEFORE IT GETS CENSORED!
Totilas warm-up at at Hagen! - a video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsuAXC7yeek


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## TarrSteps (2 May 2012)

I go back to my earlier point though, that art is subjective. 

My interest in horses is not primarily competitive, so it's very easy for me to abstain from an opinion. My only point was that many people who have an opinion, both on the individuals and the schools of thought, are a) perhaps not seeking to understand why certain choices are being made and b) making their own choices, for whatever reason, which are not always completely in their horse's best interests.

I can't really agree that dressage has fundamentally changed, I think we are simply further on the continuum and now armed with the internet. Nor can I agree that ' classical' riding, whatever that means, is necessarily traditionally horse friendly.  Baucher was into some pretty freaky s**t! Or how about Olivera teaching horses to canter backwards or on three legs!!

It is human nature to go to extremes, especially in competition. I don't think you necessarily have to throw the baby out with the bath water on a personal choice level though. It is a conflict. I personally love riding a talented horse going well. It is such a buzz. But I am not by nature an extremist so it's easy for me to opt out - it doesn't mean I necessarily have the right to judge others who make different choices.

What I don't like about the rolkur debate is it's too easy. It's hardly the only way you can hurt a horse and there is some debate if, done in certain situations, it does long term damage.  At the end of the day you can only control your own efforts. If debates make people think about their own riding, that's great. If it's just about slings and arrows then it doesn't really count for much.


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## Foxford (2 May 2012)

TS, what about if people dislike Rolkur because of the effect it has on the overall picture of the horse? Taking away any welfare issues (and I agree there are far worse things people do to horses!) what if I simply find it disappointing that such a talented horse was trained in this system? Imagine what he could have been like if someone from a more classical school had trained him from the beginning? Maybe he would have been a nobody!? But maybe he would have dominated the sport for years... Who knows. That's something that does make me think though, especially when questions over soundness raise their ugly head.


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## Foxford (2 May 2012)

Above&Beyond said:



			WATCH BEFORE IT GETS CENSORED!
Totilas warm-up at at Hagen! - a video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsuAXC7yeek

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I watched the video and I have to say I thought it would have been worse. Most of the walk work wasn't nice but the rest of it looked ok. I also felt sorry for MAR seeing the crowd round the warm up, many of them with cameras. I really feel for the guy and honestly wish him success with the horse.


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## noodle_ (2 May 2012)

Foxford said:



			I watched the video and I have to say I thought it would have been worse. Most of the walk work wasn't nice but the rest of it looked ok. I also felt sorry for MAR seeing the crowd round the warm up, many of them with cameras. I really feel for the guy and honestly wish him success with the horse.
		
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personally i think the horse is totally ruined....

dosent make pleasent viewing... :/


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## tristar (2 May 2012)

the debate uncovers the layers until we arrive at some sort  truth  about what's really going on with the horse.

and does technical perfection come before artistic merit or vice versa, and can it ever be right if it is technically correct but not pleasing to look at, even if it gets 80 percent plus.

tarr steps, i'm not certain but i think cantering backwards, (canter to the rear) is a movement natural to the horse  and and is quite easy to get from a horse who can canter in place,  it is shown by iberian horses at liberty, and also cantering sideways, due to the work they are bred to do, ie bullfighting and working cattle


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## oldvic (2 May 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			I'm just confused about the whole thing, quite frankly. It's no secret Gal rides in a school that uses extreme flexion as a schooling exercise. When Rath went another way, he was making the horse unhappy, then they were slated for giving in and going back to Sjef, now he's being attacked even though people agree the horse looks happier in the ring. Can't win for trying. 

I think the point about the horses is that many of these individuals are really not 'normal', both naturally and in the way they are produced. Most people never sit on anything close because, quite frankly, if they end up in the general population it either ends in disaster or the horse is diminished, even subconsciously, so the rest of us can ride it! I don't mean to insult anyone but it's like taking someone out of their Clio and dropping them into a F1 car on the start line. Personally, I wouldn't know the first thing to do and I've ridden a few 'average' good horses - good enough to know I'd struggle with a REALLY good one. I know a very good GP rider, currently getting into World Cup finals, been to a couple of Olympics, who briefly owned one of the most famously 'rolkur-ed' horses ever. She sold him to the person who eventually made him a star because, by her own admission, she couldn't cope and didn't want to. 

You can argue whether or not competitive dressage *should* reward horses like that but it is what it is. Top level dressage has never been about making horses for the average rider!

As to hard training. . .well, two of the most famous examples of modern masters, men who are now held up as examples of classical training, were, if you are to believe people who knew and rode with them, VERY hard on their horses. They were not in it for the giggles and the good times.  

It's a mistake to assume all good riders are necessarily always sympathetic horsemen. Even the ones that tend that way are ambitious by definition and don't always make the choices other riders might make.

As far as horses always looking comfortable and happy. . .that IS a tricky one? Can everyone say their own riding always fulfils that criteria? No one has ever made a horse hurt with their riding? Really? I know it doesn't excuse anything but you know what they say about casting stones. Most of us put our interests and ambitions before our horses' best interests quite regularly. We just don't have people taking photos and putting them on the internet. 

Debate is good. I guess the question is what are we debating? As FB said, the heroes and villains often seem so arbitrary and but always related to reality. Also, many of the leaders DO have personal and political investment. This doesn't mean they're wrong but it does make it difficult for the rest of us to accurately assess the debate.
		
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The voice of reason! What sensible comments.



tristar said:



			its true, it is wrong to harp on about the bad, but, why do i feel uncomfortable watching this horse?, i am here to try and understand why when i look at the almost best of the best i cannot enjoy what i am seeing.

i see a horse holding itself in a way that is in conflict with the very purpose of dressage, which should be manifested in the sheer physical beauty of the spectacle, i just don't see that when i look at this horse.

i believe the purpose of training is to render the horse rideable and condition it to deliver the demands of any competant rider, that is the proof of correct training, without the use of force, if competition dressage causes so much controversy then there are questions to be answered and debated.
		
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Training makes average horses rideable by competent riders. Top class horses are a totally different ball game. There are exceptions that prove the rule but they are beyond the comprehension of most people. I am a very competent driver but I certainly wouldn't even pretend that I would be capable of driving an F1 car. Why should it be presumed that a highly charged supreme athlete of a horse is any different? They are not just trained, they are trained for competition and to have that ring presence and courage they must normally have something extra. I am not advocating rollkur but I seem to remember that when Rembrandt came on the scene there was controversy because Nicole Uphoff worked him low, deep and round. This was to help control the exuberance and keep him connected. The Dutch feel the need for rollkur presumably for similar reasons. These huge moving powerful horses don't necessarily follow the normal rules so they do what they think they have to to mould the movement and power into something workable without taking it away.



Foxford said:



			I watched the video and I have to say I thought it would have been worse. Most of the walk work wasn't nice but the rest of it looked ok. I also felt sorry for MAR seeing the crowd round the warm up, many of them with cameras. I really feel for the guy and honestly wish him success with the horse.
		
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When he gave the rein in walk Totilas ran on so MAR did what he felt necessary to point out the error of his ways. As for the rest, there was some very high quality piaffe and passage and you could be upset at the outline.


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## Freddie19 (2 May 2012)

CalllyH said:



			Any pictures of this horse since he left gal upset me. No rhyme and reason he just seems to have lost so much spark, even his coat doesn't look the same. He just seems dull in the eyes.
		
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Here you go CallyH, not one other poster has commented on your post!!

I know nothing about dressage (pure), but must agree with you.  But then, new owner, new rider and most importantly new groom, is he a happy horse, I think not....but then money speaks does it not. Oh and I wonder how often does this guy get out hacking and even more importantly get out in a field grazing? Rock on Carl Hester I say, let horses have a normal life.


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## tristar (2 May 2012)

it was rumoured that uphoff used deep, which is  different from rollkur, for among other reasons because rembrandt was very spooky, not certain if that is true, and i see no comparison to the work shown by rembrandt  which was so consistantly brilliant especially when he won olympic gold, and toto, uphoff looked like she was 'following the horse' in every iota of movement, in fact charlotte dujardin's win reminded me of that performance, as if their very stability and connection to the movement enabled the brillance to come through.


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## B-B (2 May 2012)

oldvic said:



			The voice of reason! What sensible comments.



Training makes average horses rideable by competent riders. Top class horses are a totally different ball game. There are exceptions that prove the rule but they are beyond the comprehension of most people. I am a very competent driver but I certainly wouldn't even pretend that I would be capable of driving an F1 car. Why should it be presumed that a highly charged supreme athlete of a horse is any different? They are not just trained, they are trained for competition and to have that ring presence and courage they must normally have something extra. I am not advocating rollkur but I seem to remember that when Rembrandt came on the scene there was controversy because Nicole Uphoff worked him low, deep and round. This was to help control the exuberance and keep him connected. The Dutch feel the need for rollkur presumably for similar reasons. These huge moving powerful horses don't necessarily follow the normal rules so they do what they think they have to to mould the movement and power into something workable without taking it away.



When he gave the rein in walk Totilas ran on so MAR did what he felt necessary to point out the error of his ways. As for the rest, there was some very high quality piaffe and passage and you could be upset at the outline.
		
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Good points made


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## Bills (2 May 2012)

Foxford said:



			I watched the video and I have to say I thought it would have been worse. Most of the walk work wasn't nice but the rest of it looked ok. I also felt sorry for MAR seeing the crowd round the warm up, many of them with cameras. I really feel for the guy and honestly wish him success with the horse.
		
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He resembles those Tennessee walking horses in some bits of that video!!


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## oldvic (2 May 2012)

tristar said:



			it was rumoured that uphoff used deep, which is  different from rollkur, for among other reasons because rembrandt was very spooky, not certain if that is true, and i see no comparison to the work shown by rembrandt  which was so consistantly brilliant especially when he won olympic gold, and toto, uphoff looked like she was 'following the horse' in every iota of movement, in fact charlotte dujardin's win reminded me of that performance, as if their very stability and connection to the movement enabled the brillance to come through.
		
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Yes it is different to rollkur but, in those days, it was still frowned on. Yes, she used it to control him and his exuberance (or spooking if you prefer) and keep him connected and through his back. The point I was illustrating was that extraordinary horses don't always follow normal rules. Like Totilas, Rembrandt caused much discussion because he could be spooky and some things he did received very high marks in spite of not being classically correct - he didn't sit in piaffe so his transitions to passage were incorrect even if in superb rhythm. He was so different to those that preceded him, beautiful to watch in spite of what people liked to say. Totilas is also beautiful to watch in spite of some imperfections.


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## Bearskin (2 May 2012)

Above&Beyond said:



			WATCH BEFORE IT GETS CENSORED!
Totilas warm-up at at Hagen! - a video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsuAXC7yeek

Click to expand...

For the posters who have said that Totilas looked "Happier" in the Hagen tests, the above video explains why.  You should not confuse Happy with submissive.  

Tarrsteps, I once worked for a rider whose training ethic was "if it runs out to the left beat it on the left side of its neck, if it runs out to the right beat it on the right side of the neck, if it stops dead, beat it on both sides of the neck.  If there are no wheals you have not hit it hard enough."  This person went on to be head team selector in their country and is a "well respected" trainer.....

Rollkur is not beating your horse.  It is however a form of training which uses extreme submission.  Lines have to be drawn and the debate should continue.  If we accept extreme methods now, where will it end?  The horse should be given the option to express its discomfort and we should use our brains and not our fists to find the solutions.


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## Above&Beyond (2 May 2012)

Bearskin said:



			For the posters who have said that Totilas looked "Happier" in the Hagen tests, the above video explains why.  You should not confuse Happy with submissive.
		
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I think this is smth I think of every time someone mentions the word "happy", because ppl seem to assume a horse that 'plays by the rules' and performs as is asked of it means it is happy! But is that really happiness? And how will you ever know if that horse is truly happy from just watching it perform at a competition?



TarrSteps said:



			I go back to my earlier point though, that art is subjective. 
I can't really agree that dressage has fundamentally changed, I think we are simply further on the continuum and now armed with the internet. Nor can I agree that ' classical' riding, whatever that means, is necessarily traditionally horse friendly.  Baucher was into some pretty freaky s**t! Or how about Olivera teaching horses to canter backwards or on three legs!!
		
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I agree! Many things are still the same, how they are perceived and shared is different, rollkur has been around for a long time, its not until now that it has changed the rules.




			tarr steps, i'm not certain but i think cantering backwards, (canter to the rear) is a movement natural to the horse and and is quite easy to get from a horse who can canter in place
		
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This is a bit off the point, but I'm sure I read about how Olivera realised he was wrecking his horses through teaching them to canter backwards, it's not natural in my opinion.


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## Booboos (2 May 2012)

MAR must be feeling that Toto is a bit of a poisoned chalice by now, he can't do right with the horse for doing wrong!

For me, from the videos I have seen doing the rounds, it's clear that Toto is much happier being ridden in rolkur and comes out doing a much more obedient, supple and co-operative test, than when ridden in the German method (whatever that might be). The horse has decided which method works for him and made it quite clear what he prefers.


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## TarrSteps (2 May 2012)

Above&Beyond said:



			This is a bit off the point, but I'm sure I read about how Olivera realised he was wrecking his horses through teaching them to canter backwards, it's not natural in my opinion.
		
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I've heard something similar.  It's not at all uncommon for "masters" to change their tune somewhere along the line - Fillis and Baucher both adapted their training to be more "horse friendly" as time went by.  One could also argue as they became richer and more famous and were able to do as the wished and not as was expected of them.  

And it's not just dressage - John Lyons has changed his tune, Monty Roberts has adapted his methods etc etc.  The quote in my sig refers to the same idea.  People change as they mature.  People also get weaker and smarter (hopefully) as they age, and often seek to do with smarts what they used to do with strength.

My point is that people have always paid to watch a show, be it kings or ticket holders.  To some extent this is what we expect of these people - to push the boundaries.  

By the way, to play devil's advocate how does everyone know that all is sweetness and light with the chosen few?  Because they say so?  Who has seen unauthorised video of them training at home?  They've certainly not heard unvetted reports from employees because they sign confidentiality agreements.  There was a scandal in the US a few years back when someone was videoed over a fence but that is MUCH harder to do there and here than in most of Europe, where dressage is much more a popular sport and much more under the general microscope.  I'm not saying people outside of Germany or Holland ARE doing "uncomfortable" things behind closed doors but I'm intrigued that everyone assumes they aren't just because, and only because, they say it's so!

(And again, I am not accusing anyone of anything.  I'm merely asking how people know it to be true!)

Let's face it, modern dressage horses are pretty spectacular beasts.  They don't come working like that although they do come with all the raw material and that can be damn scary!  Yes, they are being pushed to extremes.  ALL of them.  And extremes are, by definition, dangerous.  But, then again, they are extreme horses and if they weren't being world class dressage horses I doubt they'd be "happy" RC horses or hackers.


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## Booboos (2 May 2012)

Baucher is described by his contemporaries as having been brutal to his horses and as having ruined a number of horses by stiffling their desire to go forwards. Apparently he then had an accident and lost partial use of his limbs...which funnily enough led to a revision of his methods to more subtle aids!


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## tristar (2 May 2012)

re canter to the rear:  i was'nt going to mention this for fear of sounding like i'm boasting about my young horse! but, several times last year when he was three years old i saw him canter backwards while playing in the field, its a very odd movement, he appeared to be playing with his own capabilites, and its not suprising he can do this as he is very strong and deep through the loins.

i suppose the definition of natural to me, is if a horse performs a movement at liberty then it is natural to the horse.


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## TarrSteps (2 May 2012)

tristar said:



			re canter to the rear:  i was'nt going to mention this for fear of sounding like i'm boasting about my young horse! but, several times last year when he was three years old i saw him canter backwards while playing in the field, its a very odd movement, he appeared to be playing with his own capabilites, and its not suprising he can do this as he is very strong and deep through the loins.

i suppose the definition of natural to me, is if a horse performs a movement at liberty then it is natural to the horse.
		
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I saw a super athletic Indoctro colt canter backwards in a group class once but I don't think the rider was enjoying it!  

To again be devil's advocate, I've seen stallions especially, posture with their chins virtually on their chests and their front legs flying while their back ends went nowhere!  

I guess the argument is, is anything any individual horse *can* do what all/most horses SHOULD do?  Obviously they answer is no, just as it would not be fair to ask any horse to jump 1.50 just because there are lots of horses that can do it for fun.


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## CalllyH (2 May 2012)

I don't think it matters so much about the rolkur but looking at these videos Firstly and foremost this horse is not level at all! I don't see the sake of carrying on with him in competition. He's had his glory now use him to breed solely before it goes even more tits up


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## tristar (3 May 2012)

i certainly would not say all horses should do all movements, but certain horses who can offer, and are bred to, and show the inclination to play with the rarer qualites and find it easy, should be followed up, so their individual talents become their highlights.


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## Fellewell (3 May 2012)

rhino said:



			I follow no scheduled program - again massive incorrect assumption. Why do you feel the need to talk down to anyone who has a different opinion? You might not like it being discussed, but that's public forums for you.
		
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Oh, come on now Rhino; you do have a scheduled programme. It involves hanging around here all day, talking down to people.


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## TarrSteps (3 May 2012)

Which is pretty much the point of dressage at the top end, to enhance the exceptional.


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## rhino (3 May 2012)

Fellewell said:



			Oh, come on now Rhino; you do have a scheduled programme. It involves hanging around here all day, talking down to people.
		
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Oh aren't you a funny one    Or not...


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## Above&Beyond (3 May 2012)

Indeed TarrSteps, this whole discussion came about because the Rath's changed their tune, and even though 2 yrs ago they wrote a letter supporting the ban of Rollkur, they now admit to matching their training methods to what Totilas is 'used to'!



tristar said:



			re canter to the rear:  i was'nt going to mention this for fear of sounding like i'm boasting about my young horse! but, several times last year when he was three years old i saw him canter backwards while playing in the field, its a very odd movement, he appeared to be playing with his own capabilites, and its not suprising he can do this as he is very strong and deep through the loins.

i suppose the definition of natural to me, is if a horse performs a movement at liberty then it is natural to the horse.
		
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This is a fair point, what is natural or not is a discussion on its own, and you are right that horses will canter backwards without asking them to. 
I used to ride a horse which wasnt that athletic, it cantered backwards when napping, so they CAN do it. But maybe the question is should do vs can do?



TarrSteps said:



			I guess the argument is, is anything any individual horse *can* do what all/most horses SHOULD do?  Obviously they answer is no, just as it would not be fair to ask any horse to jump 1.50 just because there are lots of horses that can do it for fun.
		
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This would be an endless debate though, I like to believe dressage is smth we do with horses to help them carry the rider correctly and thus stay sound. Which is why horses that are manage correctly can perform at the highest level into their late 20's. But, at the same time to believe thats the purpose of the sport would be a bit naive.


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## kerilli (3 May 2012)

has everyone already seen this: Toti as a 5yr old, pre-Gal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbpiL2arT4A&feature=share
had exceptional cadence and lift even then, no?

my trainer told me ages ago, during a discussion on it, that Nicole Uphoff was the first to use "rollkur" (well, that's what he called it, and since he's German, I guess he knows exactly what it means and the difference - if there is one - between it and LDR...) on Rembrandt, to control his excessive spooking. 

If it's true that one is allowed to use LDR/rollkur for a max of 10 mins in warm-up, and that's what the stewards were monitoring carefully in this session, I can't quite get my head around that... surely if it's fine there should be no time limit, and if it's not, then, erm, ditto... 10 mins, 5 mins, 2 mins is too much... *puzzled face*

As for the horse going better this way, I don't really know what to think. Learned helplessness? Or, we all know that horses love the familiar... 

So, I'm convoluted about this. I don't like the look of rollkur in a double bridle BUT if the horse then produced much better work - compared to his performance at the stallion show where they were obviously both on different planets... hmmm.
(fwiw to me a horse dipping deep in a snaffle has a totally different look, no curb etc. The curb doesn't look loose in the pics imho.)


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## SpottedCat (3 May 2012)

K - the argument of it either being fine or not just doesn't stand up for me - we all know galloping a horse is fine.....but galloping it solidly for say 24 hours - is that fine? Jumping a horse over 1.50 sjs is fine....so why aren't XC fences that big? Doing medium trot is fine - would it still be fine if someone did it for 3 hours constantly? Why is it fine to lunge for 20 mins but not 6 hours? Surely if you think it's ok to lunge a horse then if it's fine for 20 mins it's fine for however long?

There are plenty of things which if done to excess would be abusive but if done for controlled periods actually enhance the way the horse moves. Making the controlled period relatively short doesn't make the thing inherently bad. It might make it under-studied/arbitrary or politically motivated - and it may well be that it is inherently a bad thing. But you can't say just coz there is a short time limit on it that means it must be bad.


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## Above&Beyond (3 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			has everyone already seen this: Toti as a 5yr old, pre-Gal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbpiL2arT4A&feature=share
had exceptional cadence and lift even then, no?

my trainer told me ages ago, during a discussion on it, that Nicole Uphoff was the first to use "rollkur" (well, that's what he called it, and since he's German, I guess he knows exactly what it means and the difference - if there is one - between it and LDR...) on Rembrandt, to control his excessive spooking. 

If it's true that one is allowed to use LDR/rollkur for a max of 10 mins in warm-up, and that's what the stewards were monitoring carefully in this session, I can't quite get my head around that... surely if it's fine there should be no time limit, and if it's not, then, erm, ditto... 10 mins, 5 mins, 2 mins is too much... *puzzled face*
		
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Thanks for the video, hadn't seen it.
I don't think being german qualifies someone to know more than anyone else,  otherwise I must be right .
Rollkur is nothing new, its been around for a long time and no one will ever know who the first person was to use it.

I am not saying I agree with the 10min rule, but I see the point of it in that a horse will be in that position at some point even without aiming to ride it in that way, which explains to me why there can't be 0 tolerance. 
Also agree with Spottedcat on that everything is bad in excess!


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## kirstykate (3 May 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			K - the argument of it either being fine or not just doesn't stand up for me - we all know galloping a horse is fine.....but galloping it solidly for say 24 hours - is that fine? Jumping a horse over 1.50 sjs is fine....so why aren't XC fences that big? Doing medium trot is fine - would it still be fine if someone did it for 3 hours constantly? Why is it fine to lunge for 20 mins but not 6 hours? Surely if you think it's ok to lunge a horse then if it's fine for 20 mins it's fine for however long?

There are plenty of things which if done to excess would be abusive but if done for controlled periods actually enhance the way the horse moves. Making the controlled period relatively short doesn't make the thing inherently bad. It might make it under-studied/arbitrary or politically motivated - and it may well be that it is inherently a bad thing. But you can't say just coz there is a short time limit on it that means it must be bad.
		
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Exactly and I would like to know just how many of you on here know why these methods are used??


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## kerilli (3 May 2012)

Above&Beyond said:



			Thanks for the video, hadn't seen it.
I don't think being german qualifies someone to know more than anyone else,  otherwise I must be right .
Rollkur is nothing new, its been around for a long time and no one will ever know who the first person was to use it.
		
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Erm, I didn't say it meant he knows more than anyone else... but since he is a trainer (a Bereiter I think, I'm not sure) and witnessed it, and knows the nuances of the meaning in German better than i do, i trust his word that it was rollkur and not LDR. that's what i meant.

i have no idea if it was used before that - he said not. he trained with Neindorff and has been to a lot of top yards, studied the dressage Masters of the past etc etc and when he said that NU was the first to use it, I believed him.
could be wrong though, obv.

SC, with respect, I disagree. 1.50 xc fences - that is completely irrelevant, surely? that would be a pure safety issue, although i'm sure some horses would cope okay. Opp Buzz, anyone?
ditto galloping a horse for 24 hours - erm, what on earth has that got to do with a questionable technique being used for a deliberately limited period in a dressage warm up? we aren't talking about working a horse to death here.
lungeing a horse for 6 hours... again, i fail to see the relevance. we are not talking about working a horse to exhaustion, either. we are talking about putting a short time limit on a questionable practice. There is no set time limit put on any other aspect of warm up as far as I know... you can go in and do nothing but long rein walk, or collected walk, or trot half pass, or medium trot, or even extended canter, or whatever else you fancy, for the whole time if you really want to...    no horse abuse suspected!
I don't know if they put a maximum time on warm-up for Dr but I know of certain riders in Eventing and SJ who have done very very very long warm-ups on certain horses to get the best out of them... and nobody thought that was abuse afaik. So, as long as it's not to the point of exhaustion or death, the length of the warm-up overall is immaterial imho, we are talking about HOW the horse is worked...

kirstykate, yes, i believe i do know why these methods are used.


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## SpottedCat (3 May 2012)

You were saying if it is fine then a time limit doesn't need to be put on it, I was saying that putting a time limit on something doesn't mean that the logical conclusion is that the practice of that thing is bad. What if someone did decide that riding in, using only medium canter, for 4 hours, was the way to get the best out of one particular horse, and the powers that be felt that because of the public outcry due to seeing said sweaty horse ridden for 4 hours they were going to put on a time limit of say 20 mins for medium canter? Would that make medium canter bad? 

I'm not coming down for or against rollkur, but the point I was making was that putting a time limit on something can be done for all kinds of reason, some politically motivated, some because they have to be seen to be doing something, that doesn't mean that the thing which is limited is in itself a bad thing to do. It might just mean they haven't a clue but 10 mins is an arbitrarily short period of time that shows they are doing something, even if there is no evidence base for it at all.


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## SpottedCat (3 May 2012)

The fence height thing was the point that there is a limit on the height of XC fences - that limit is an arbitrary safety limit which has been agreed at some point in the past. What's it based on? If a horse can jump 1.50 SJs then, as you said, some of them might well be able to jump 1.50 XC fences. My point was that the limit is arbitrary, has no basis in what horses can do routinely in another sport, and is just a limit. The limit itself does not make the act bad!!


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## kirstykate (3 May 2012)

Its like everything there is a time and place, you just need to watch the top showjumpers warming up


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## kerilli (3 May 2012)

but the point is, there is NO time limit put upon any other practice in dressage warm-up... Surely that means something?!
I still don't see the relevance of the 1.50xc fence idea. horses do lots of things in other sports that we don't expect them to transfer to a different sport. you have, genuinely, lost me with this parallel...

kirstykate... yes, i have watched top showjumpers warming up. and your point is...? 
i'd like to hear your thoughts on why you think these methods are used, too.


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## SpottedCat (3 May 2012)

The point is that a limit can be arbitrarily applied and the fact there is a limit does not make something abusive. Just because there is no limit placed on any other part of the warmup doesn't mean the thing which has the limit is abusive. It might be....or it might just be that someone felt they needed to be seen to be doing something, so watched some warmups, realised that people don't generally do it for prolonged periods so decided that if they put a 10 min limit on it would have precisely no effect on the riders, but the outside world would see they were doing something and the backlash would stop. 

I don't know how else to explain the idea that a limit does not mean the logical conclusion is that the act is abusive and was using the fact that we have arbitrary different limits in different sports to demonstrate that fact! 

The fact that there is no limit on any other part of the warmup doesn't mean the things being done wouldn't be abusive if done to excess - but because no one has decided to do them to excess, and perhaps more pertinently none of the general public have kicked up a fuss about any other part of the warmup, there is no requirement for a limit. You can bet your bottom dollar that if, say, this kind of fuss was kicked up about shoulder in, there would be a time limit for working in shoulder in faster than you can say 'rollkur'


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## kerilli (3 May 2012)

okay, i get that, but it just looks like specious reasoning to me, since the ONLY thing they have put a time limit on is, as i said before, is this questionable practice (that has been investigated in depth already.)
as for 'people don't generally do it for prolonged periods' that isn't quite my understanding... (pre- time limit, or at home, i mean).


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## SpottedCat (3 May 2012)

But they did make the whole rule so grey and wooly as to be virtually impossible to apply. Perhaps there is a reason for that.....


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## oldvic (3 May 2012)

Nicole Uphoff called her methods LDR but the uproar was because the horse was being ridden "overbent". It was probably the German version of rollkur! It really boils down to how extreme the rider makes it. I agree with Spotted Cat that it is not black and white - you can ask a horse something for a short time to show it the way. For instance, if a horse is reluctant to cross over in leg yielding, if you ask for more extreme crossing and a greater angle for a short time then a regular leg yield becomes easy. The danger is when someone does this without understanding the reasons and how it effects the body so causing damage. These supreme athletes are so supple that their bodies can go where mere mortals can't (if I tried to do what gymnasts do I would break in no time!). I am not an advocate of rollkur at all but it is hard to argue that it doesn't work with exceptional athletes. My worry is when people pick up on it and try and force normal horses into a position that is beyond them.
Certainly in eventing there is a time limit for warm up and I think there is for dressage - 1hr in one session.


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## Peer (3 May 2012)

The now called LDR system was basically developed for female riders (Nicolle Uphof and Rembrandt were the first to show this to the public). Female riders lacked the muscle strength that male rider had and have. So this system was developed in Germany to give female riders equal chances in the competition arena. Jean Bemmelmans during the RollKür/Hyperflexian/LDR symposium at Aachen. "You can't expect Anky with her 55 kilos to get the same response from a horse as the response I get with my 90+ kilo" .

Taking this back to the basics. Horses in the LDR system are learning to act on smaller aids. 

This system is already very well accepted by many riders in many countries but it is (and probably will stay) a cultural shock for Germany, where the "Ausbildung Skala" is still based on the military training.


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## ScampiBigMan (3 May 2012)

Hi, don't normally post but thought Georges Dewez' letter below may be informative for this thread.  He trained with Nuno Oliveira.  This is posted for information to the debate and am sure many are already familiar with its contents but some may not be and may find it an interesting input.


'_I am writing in response to an article published in Horse and Hound titled Classical Dressage Who Cares? The Rollkur Debate

Letter by Georges Dewez published in the CRC Newsletter Spring 2006

The debate regarding the merits of classical versus modern dressage methods was initiated by the German dressage press, approximately 6 months ago, when articles criticising some modern dressage training methods were published. The criticism was particularly directed towards the use of Rollkür; the practice of working horses in extreme overbending or hyperflexion. Some of the photographs, which accompanied this article, showed the current Olympic Champion during warm up for competition, creating much comment.

As a result the FEI called a meeting of trainers, riders and vets in Lausanne on February 1st 2006 to discuss the issues arising from the allegations made by the press. The meeting concluded that although potentially damaging in inexperienced hands these methods were acceptable in the hands of experts. There is no doubt that extreme methods are and will probably always be used behind closed doors. It is however shocking for these techniques to be officially condoned by the recognised regulatory body the FEI.

The issue at hand is not what it is classical or not but rather is it ethical to use any means to achieve your goal, in this case a winning Grand Prix test. Many well known modern riders and trainers seem to justify what has now been officially described as hyperflexion of the neck as a necessary tool to produce the modern dressage athletes, whose power and athleticism they so admire. That the modern dressage horse is in many ways superior to the horses competing in the 50s and 60s is in no doubt but this has much more to do with the considerable skill of the continental breeders than any change in training.

They do show extravagant paces but extravagance does not always equate with being correct. The extended trot of some GP horses is often more similar to what in the circus used to be called Spanish trot. The reason I mention the circus is not for the sake of provocation but because this is where this new and modern method of training comes from.

In the mid 1800s the brilliant circus trainer François Baucher described in great detail a method he used occasionally which he called ramener outré which translates exactly as extreme overbending or hyperflexion of the neck. He explained that its great advantage was that it gave complete control over the neck structure and provoked an extreme submission of the horse. He excused his techniques by explaining that as a circus rider he needed such methods to produce the evermore spectacular movements which kept his public entertained. Baucher suffered a tremendous amount of criticism from the German press and leading German trainers of the time.

So, do we really need to train horses using methods where the horse is so overbent that it cannot physically see beyond its front feet and in some cases not even that far? To most outsiders I would think this would be considered a form of abuse whether or not it is performed by experts. The rules of the FEI require : The harmonious development of the physique and ability of the horse.

The question to debate is not classical versus modern but whether we wish to allow the fashion for extravagant show paces to overide any ethics in training. Is it still relevant to strive to maintain the previous standard of purity of pace and correct execution of all movements?

Does the FEI intend to promote show business by any means or is it still going to try and maintain the art of riding? Harmony is not just for show it must be maintained throughout the whole training. It is interesting to note that François Baucher abandoned the methods he once used and in later life chose to concentrate on lightness and the purity of the paces.

There has indeed been great progress in some aspects of modern training, in particular, a much better understanding of the functioning of the horses back and, yes, more power and elasticity ,but the ethical stance which is at the core of classical training must be maintained if we are to keep the art of riding. Georges Dewez, Carreg Dressage, Machynlleth, Powys, Wales SY20 8NW'_


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## Peer (3 May 2012)

OMG we have another one who is copying and pasting the dusty articles of the ODG's .


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## little_flea (3 May 2012)

Peer said:



			The now called LDR system was basically developed for female riders (Nicolle Uphof and Rembrandt were the first to show this to the public). Female riders lacked the muscle strength that male rider had and have. So this system was developed in Germany to give female riders equal chances in the competition arena. Jean Bemmelmans during the RollKür/Hyperflexian/LDR symposium at Aachen. "You can't expect Anky with her 55 kilos to get the same response from a horse as the response I get with my 90+ kilo" .

Taking this back to the basics. Horses in the LDR system are learning to act on smaller aids. 

This system is already very well accepted by many riders in many countries but it is (and probably will stay) a cultural shock for Germany, where the "Ausbildung Skala" is still based on the military training.
		
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In the Taming of Totilas part II video there was mention of Laura B using her hands a lot (and she has been criticised for being too heavy-handed) and the reason for this is because she is simply so small on the horse that she can't lift in "up" with her legs like a taller, stronger (read: male) ride would be able to do. I've never considered this before really, its interesting.


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## Pale Rider (3 May 2012)

Well, I've just read every post on this thread. Interesting.


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## tristar (3 May 2012)

i thought rembrandt was a lightish weight horse around 16.1.HH and she did'nt look overmounted, so why would strength come in it? if fact the very idea that that strength in riding is even mentioned makes me want to faint from utter despair.

i don't see a lot of true collection in top dressage, sometimes with horses like fuego, but then i thought he was trained by jan bemelmans


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## kerilli (3 May 2012)

tristar said:



			i thought rembrandt was a lightish weight horse around 16.1.HH and she did'nt look overmounted, so why would strength come in it? if fact the very idea that that strength in riding is even mentioned makes me want to faint from utter despair.
		
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Yes, ditto. he was, a light dancing horse, totally opposite sort to the huge powerhouse types...



little_flea said:



			In the Taming of Totilas part II video there was mention of Laura B using her hands a lot (and she has been criticised for being too heavy-handed) and the reason for this is because she is simply so small on the horse that she can't lift in "up" with her legs like a taller, stronger (read: male) ride would be able to do. I've never considered this before really, its interesting.
		
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How the chuffing HELL is anyone supposed to be able to "lift" a horse up with their legs? I'm sorry but even if they're Arnie Schwarzenegger at his strongest... !!!  Or with their hands, ugh at the very thought. 
I'm right with tristar on this.
Strength of legs and hands should never have anything to do with it. how can the horse be in self carriage if the rider is using that much strength (nicer word for 'force'?) You only have to see the tune that some small light riders (and para riders fgs, i've seen Lee Pearson ride and it's really impressive, and his legs can't do anything) can get out of a horse to see the problem with this argument. 
I see no signs of Charlotte Dujardin "lifting" the horse with her legs or her hands. She trains the horse to response and lift himself... huge difference imho. 

Peer, I can see what you mean if you say 'a small light rider is getting on a horse that is USED to being ridden by a big strong tall rider' and struggles accordlingly, but otherwise, it's just a case of the horse being trained to go on light aids from the start, no?  I've heard the same arguments about xc horses, "that's a man's horse"... erm, no, not necessarily...


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## Booboos (3 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			How the chuffing HELL is anyone supposed to be able to "lift" a horse up with their legs? I'm sorry but even if they're Arnie Schwarzenegger at his strongest... !!!
		
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Neither here nor there in this debate probably, but this can certainly be done! I had a boyfriend who was very powerfully built and he could make his 18hh eventer jump straight up on all four legs from a halt just by squeezing with his legs. Anyone can get the feeling of lifting the back from lower leg pressure so I suppose this was an extension of this. Quite an impressive party trick!


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## kerilli (3 May 2012)

Booboos said:



			Neither here nor there in this debate probably, but this can certainly be done! I had a boyfriend who was very powerfully built and he could make his 18hh eventer jump straight up on all four legs from a halt just by squeezing with his legs. Anyone can get the feeling of lifting the back from lower leg pressure so I suppose this was an extension of this. Quite an impressive party trick! 

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Umm, okay, but I don't think that's quite the same as a horse lifting in front, lightening the forehand because it is carrying itself better, etc... iykwim...


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## oldvic (3 May 2012)

The point about Rembrandt is not about his size/type but about his temperament and athletisism. He was very spooky and NU found that by riding him very round she could reduce the evasion. In my experience, with a horse of this type there is a very fine balance as to how sensitive to the aids he needs to be. Reactive enough to perform the movements easily and willingly but not so sharp off the aids that they run from the aids and the rider is unable to hold the horse with leg and seat and give him some security (rather like an event horse). There are some horses that need the strength of a man to perform at their optimum as, by nature, they are slow to react however much training they have. There are others much more suited to a girl riding with guile and technique and a soft touch. All horses are different and need to be ridden to cater for their individual characteristics and talents. Some strength is needed with a selection of horses. Lee Pearson is an immense talent and can only be admired but there are some horses that he wouldn't try to train.


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## oldvic (3 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			Umm, okay, but I don't think that's quite the same as a horse lifting in front, lightening the forehand because it is carrying itself better, etc... iykwim...
		
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The horse lifting in front and improving his self carriage comes from increasing the engagement of the hind legs. With some horses it helps to have strong seat and legs to achieve this and may well involve less force than a weaker rider trying to get reactions that they can't quite manage.


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## Peer (3 May 2012)

Watch the German riders in these training and warm up sessions.

http://www.topdressage.tv/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=190&t=5050


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## kerilli (3 May 2012)

oldvic said:



			The point about Rembrandt is not about his size/type but about his temperament and athletisism. He was very spooky and NU found that by riding him very round she could reduce the evasion. In my experience, with a horse of this type there is a very fine balance as to how sensitive to the aids he needs to be. Reactive enough to perform the movements easily and willingly but not so sharp off the aids that they run from the aids and the rider is unable to hold the horse with leg and seat and give him some security (rather like an event horse). There are some horses that need the strength of a man to perform at their optimum as, by nature, they are slow to react however much training they have. There are others much more suited to a girl riding with guile and technique and a soft touch. All horses are different and need to be ridden to cater for their individual characteristics and talents. Some strength is needed with a selection of horses. Lee Pearson is an immense talent and can only be admired but there are some horses that he wouldn't try to train.
		
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oldvic said:



			The horse lifting in front and improving his self carriage comes from increasing the engagement of the hind legs. With some horses it helps to have strong seat and legs to achieve this and may well involve less force than a weaker rider trying to get reactions that they can't quite manage.
		
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Ah, right, I see what you mean. Thankyou. I think I was being too much of a fluffy idealist about it. (the only GP horse i've ever ridden - from 1 of the top yards in Europe - did not require much strength at all, and i got on fine with him - once i worked out how to get him into canter! very embarrassing till i did...)

Peer, I can only watch the Isabell one, the other requires membership. Yes, she's working the horse very deep. I've already said up there that deep in a snaffle doesn't bother me as much as deep in a double with curb being used strongly. Maybe that's an error in my brain or something...


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## oldvic (3 May 2012)

Not so much fluffy but maybe idealist! Theory is only part of training horses and I think I am really referring to the ones that don't necessarily conform to the rules which are the ones that are so fascinating. If they all had read the book and followed the rules then we would be poorer and it would really be quite dull!


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## tristar (4 May 2012)

i. werth when  riding in the video is constantly pulling the inside rein, her elbow goes behind her body line, the horse is jabbed with spurs, the rein contact in the rein back is too strong, the horse when walking on a looser rein does not take the contact forward and down as would be expected, i find her body posture in the earlier part very poor, she does not support her weight and help the horse.

words fail me


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## Booboos (4 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			Umm, okay, but I don't think that's quite the same as a horse lifting in front, lightening the forehand because it is carrying itself better, etc... iykwim...
		
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There are many, many ways to train a horse, but in this case it did make it a lot easier for the horse to lift, because the rider could lift the back under the saddle and combined with a strong leg which made the horse active from behind this rider made a huge difference to the horse's way of going. Some riders literally use their lower legs and seats to lift the back of the horse under them.


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## Booboos (4 May 2012)

I can also only see the first vid. Very strong riding, she uses her hands a lot, both inside and at times outside, but also the horse is nowhere near forward enough, the canter is at times 4-beat it seems to me. This is rollkur, right? I don't think anyone would question that, but just thought I'd say it!  And it's not very well ridden rollkur due to the lack of impulsion at times.


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## Peer (4 May 2012)

Booboos said:



			I can also only see the first vid. Very strong riding, she uses her hands a lot, both inside and at times outside, but also the horse is nowhere near forward enough, the canter is at times 4-beat it seems to me. This is rollkur, right? I don't think anyone would question that, but just thought I'd say it!  And it's not very well ridden rollkur due to the lack of impulsion at times.
		
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The next videos shows Nicole and Isabell training at Aachen 1995 and Heike Kemmer at Dresden.

http://www.topdressage.tv/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=190&t=5050


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## Booboos (4 May 2012)

Peer said:



			The next videos shows Nicole and Isabell training at Aachen 1995 and Heike Kemmer at Dresden.

http://www.topdressage.tv/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=190&t=5050

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Thank you! 

Kick, kick, pull, lean back...it could be any warm-up for prelim anywhere in the UK!!!!  

I  am joking by the way before anyone jumps down my throat!


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## Peer (4 May 2012)

These videos shows that this whole LDR thing is already existing since they introduced competitive dressage. Today it is LDR, in the 1980's it was bamboo sticks, iron rings or chains around the legs of the horses and in extreme circumstances electric gadgets. When I was working and training in the 1980's for some REITMEISTERS in Germany I have seen it all. Funny and shocking however that these REITMEISTERS today are so against LDR. Carl and Charlotte showed to the world that it can be done on a horse friendly way. Sure it took 20+ years and like Carl always say "just when I had the idea to retire I found my best horses". But did he found his best horses ? or was his experience from all this years the reason the he made the best horses.
I go for the later.


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