# piebald x palomino any ideas of the colour of foal?



## juevans (20 October 2010)

hi
a palomino mare on same yard as myself is in foal to a piebald stallion he isnt homozygous but as thrown coloureds this year to all mares he covered and think hes only ever had a couple of solid coloured foals in all time he as covered and hes 18 ,,,just wondering really what colour the foal was likely to be especially if it was to come out as a coloured,,  any ideas anyone?    thanks


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## pintoarabian (20 October 2010)

From the information you have provided, the chances are:
8.33% -Smoky Black Tobiano
8.33% -Smoky Black
8.33% -Buckskin Tobiano
8.33% -Buckskin
8.33% -Black Tobiano
8.33% -Black
8.33% -Bay Tobiano
8.33% -Bay
8.33% -Palomino Tobiano
8.33% -Palomino
8.33% -Chestnut Tobiano
8.33% -Chestnut 

I have bred one of my palomino mares three times to two different bay tobiano stallions. The results have been:

Bay tobiano filly
Bay tobiano colt
Buckskin tobiano colt.

Will post pics later.


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## Bug2007 (20 October 2010)

No idea i'm afraid, i had a bay mare and colured stallion that always throws colured foals he came out dun, stripe and everything, but he has white spots everywhere too, now what is that all about. He doesn't know what he is!!!


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## pintoarabian (20 October 2010)

Here they are:

Ruby Shy, by Puzzles Limited Edition, with her dam, Malibu Surfbreaker.






http://www.flickr.com/photos/11327483@N03/3075431540/http://www.flickr.com/people/11327483@N03/

Incandescent Flame. by TP Starbuck.






http://www.flickr.com/photos/11327483@N03/2276451757/http://www.flickr.com/people/11327483@N03/

AKA Starbuck's Champagne Star, also by TP Starbuck.






http://www.flickr.com/photos/11327483@N03/2865638447/http://www.flickr.com/people/11327483@N03/


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## juevans (20 October 2010)

pintoarabian/;  pics would be brill as then i could see the colours your refering too thanks for taking the time to reply


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## juevans (20 October 2010)

Sammii819 said:



			No idea i'm afraid, i had a bay mare and colured stallion that always throws colured foals he came out dun, stripe and everything, but he has white spots everywhere too, now what is that all about. He doesn't know what he is!!!

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lol theres always one that breaks the mould my question was really refering to the palomino colouring i wondered what it threw into the mix thanks for your answer though


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## juevans (20 October 2010)

stunning youngsters btw pintoarabian esp like the middle one


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## Shakira38 (20 October 2010)

juevans said:



			lol theres always one that breaks the mould my question was really refering to the palomino colouring i wondered what it threw into the mix thanks for your answer though   

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Who is the stallion? If he is homozygous for the black gene the resulting foal colours would be: 
12.50% -  Smoky Black Tobiano  
12.50% -  Smoky Black  
12.50% -  Buckskin Tobiano  
12.50% -  Buckskin  
12.50% -  Black Tobiano  
12.50% -  Black  
12.50% -  Bay Tobiano  
12.50% -  Bay  

I'm not sure on the colour genetics of the palamino but I know with my buckskin tobiano mare she is homozygous for the agouti gene which means she cannot produce black foals so also would vary more what the palamino mare carried colour genetics wise. But Pintoarabian is right with his first list. You can play around on this website: 

http://www.horsetesting.com/CCalculator1.asp

But if I'm right in saying? that the palamino accounts for the possibilities of the buckskin & palamino foal.


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## juevans (20 October 2010)

Shakira :The stallion is Stanhopes Deuka, son of Stanhopes Diddicoy, this year he as produced 2 coloureds out of 2 coloured mares , 2 coloureds out of 2 bay mares and a blue and white coloured out of a flea bitten grey mare so dont know if this is of any help


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## Enfys (20 October 2010)

I have one by a black and white paint out of a palomino. No idea of the breeding of either so Heaven knows what is lurking in the gene pool!
(The smaller one)






Opinions on his colour range from liver chestnut, through sooty palomino to silver bay.


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## jack9 (20 October 2010)

sorry to hi-jack... thanks for the link - very intresting


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## KarynK (20 October 2010)

Looking at the pictures he is not actually a piebald as such, he is not true black so:

Q1 &#8211; Does the Stallion have a chestnut mother?
Q2 &#8211; Has the Stallion ever sired a chestnut foal?

If he hasn&#8217;t then he is possibly homozygous black base and therefore all you can get from that mating is a black base carrying chestnut (Ee).

The mare for the base is &#8220;ee&#8221; chestnut and the sire would be at the moment  &#8220;E?&#8221; unless he answers yes to the questions then he would be &#8220;Ee&#8221;.  In that case it&#8217;s 50/50 Chestnut to black base for the foal.  

Then you have a 50% chance of that foal inheriting the one cream gene that the mare has.

So if the foal is chestnut + cream = Palomino, then it gets complicated!

The mare though chestnut can carry genes which affect black base and the stallion has at least one of those genes as he is not a black.  So if the foal is black based both parents can influence that.  This stallion is a bay or a black and tan he could however carry a &#8220;a&#8221; (black).

If the mare had a black parent she will also have a &#8220;a&#8221; (gene for black) but the rest would be unknown.  If they both forward the &#8220;a&#8221; the foal will be black and if it gets her cream as well it will be a black buckskin (difficult to tell it from a black as cream has little effect on black hairs)

So if the mare and or the stallion puts forward an &#8220;A&#8221; that will override black base and any other A gene and turn the foal into bay and with a cream gene as well you will get a yellow buckskin.

If they put forward one or two &#8220;At&#8221; Black and Tan gene and no &#8220;A&#8221; (bay)  you will get what is described as a Dark Bay/ black (like the stallion) and with a cream gene this will be a dark buckskin that may look brown or dark bay as it has a lot of black hairs in its coat which cream won&#8217;t effect much.

So it&#8217;s not a simple as the statistics would have you believe especially when you don&#8217;t know the genes involved with any certainty!

Ooh Enfy's you are going to have to get that one tested what an interesting colour, be very interested to see what happens in the spring, if you get 5 mins chuck the foal on a plane for me!!, Two nice ones good buy I think!!


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## juevans (20 October 2010)

karynk:  omg what a rather confusing topic i started...


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## s4sugar (20 October 2010)

The stallion is bay and white and has a bay TB dam.

This narrows the options a little as he has a 50:50 chance of passing on the tobiano gene.

I did the reverse of this mating - bay & white mare to a palomino stallion - & got a solid chestnut colt.


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## Enfys (20 October 2010)

KarynK said:



			Ooh Enfy's you are going to have to get that one tested what an interesting colour, be very interested to see what happens in the spring, if you get 5 mins chuck the foal on a plane for me!!, Two nice ones good buy I think!!
		
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Thankyou, he will be interesting to watch, bonus is that he is a really sweet little chap as well, hopefully he won't turn into a troll. Dam has been back to the same stallion, I will be waiting to see if they produce a similar foal next summer.


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## KarynK (20 October 2010)

juevans said:



			karynk:  omg what a rather confusing topic i started...

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Yep you are talking about the action of 4 genes in that mating each with one or two possible outcomes from each parent some depending on what the base colour is!  and I didn't include the coloured bit either that can range from just white legs upwards depending on yet more genes that determine how much white you get!!!

Sometimes it's better not to give yourself the headache and wait and see!!!


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## KarynK (20 October 2010)

enfys said:



			Thankyou, he will be interesting to watch, bonus is that he is a really sweet little chap as well, hopefully he won't turn into a troll. Dam has been back to the same stallion, I will be waiting to see if they produce a similar foal next summer.
		
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Was that the ones you got from the reservation?   I've got one that has looked like a troll all summer but is just starting to look a lot better now, have avoided taking any pictures!!!


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## angrovestud (20 October 2010)

To add a lttle history the grey flea bitten is an ex mare of ours and she had a blue and white foal here to to RIcco so thats two born with no chestnut and no Agouti. hope this helps


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## Enfys (20 October 2010)

KarynK said:



			Was that the ones you got from the reservation?   I've got one that has looked like a troll all summer but is just starting to look a lot better now, have avoided taking any pictures!!!
		
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Yep, these are the Indian ponies, I think both could turn out well. I know what you mean about not taking photos at some stages my Quarab filly looked like a classic cut and shut from 1 year - 18 months, I hid her in the back pastures and didn't dare advertise her! When she hit 18 months she did the Ugly Duckling thing and changed, over night it seemed, into a swan, first to see her bought her and loves her to pieces.


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## juevans (20 October 2010)

s4sugar said:



			The stallion is bay and white and has a bay TB dam.

This narrows the options a little as he has a 50:50 chance of passing on the tobiano gene.

I did the reverse of this mating - bay & white mare to a palomino stallion - & got a solid chestnut colt.
		
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bizzarre as it may seem deuka is now black and white even though he was brown and white but the coloured foals hes thrown are brown and white apart from the blue and white one so it gets more complicated as its a possibility that they could change colour with age


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