# Embryo Transfer costs?



## watertray53 (29 March 2010)

As title really: Please could people who have gone down this route give me an idea of the costs involved...I realise that it is expensive option  but I would like some idea of just how expensive and was all the cost, both financial and emotional worth it? Thanks in advance for all your help.


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## lozziehumphreys (29 March 2010)

Hi there,
I am hoping to do embryo transfer with my mare this year. We are lucky enough to keep our girls at a stud, and have two mares suitable to be recipients as this can be a large cost if you have to loan/lease mares for this purpose. Our vets provide a package that includes all scans/flushs/drugs etc. and we are paying a deposit, then the rest of the fee after positive pregnancy scans. Each vet that provides ET often have different terms and conditions and I would suggest researching specialists in your area.
Beaufort Embryo Transfer centre has a very informative website, and is a great site to visit for advice and information.
Please PM for any more info, although I'm no expert, just a very excited mare owner!


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## ofcourseyoucan (29 March 2010)

i have a big mare who would be suitable for e transfer. fantastic temp. would lease for 1700 per year. she is 16.3.


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## Alec Swan (29 March 2010)

Watertray53,

we are,  as others starting out with the system.  We have a close friend who owns a well bred and very good advanced event mare.  She is the donor.  That's the easy bit!

The actual transfer,  initial AI and vets costs,  aren't that bad.  HOWEVER.  there are most certainly secondary costs to consider.  If you accept that the initial pregnancy will stand a 70% chance of success,  and then the actual transfer,  again and with luck,  will also stand a 70% chance of success,  then that brings us down to a realistic 50% success rate.

The major costs,  or so it seems to me,  are with the recipient mares, and the keep and vets costs.  We are planning and hoping for two successful transfers.  We will try two mares for the first,  and then if one holds we will have the choice of three mares for the second.

Through the remarkable generosity of others we have managed to borrow three mares.  We also have a mare of our own.  Two of them will receive a straight AI in the event that they fail to hold to ET,  as they are certainly good enough in their own rights to carry their own foals.  

Do check with the suppliers of your recipient mares whether or not you will still be liable for the hire charge,  in the event that the mare which they supply fails to hold.

If you are serious,  then send me a PM,  and we'll compare notes and thoughts.  I have done a great deal of research into the costs.  Research which I will share with you,  willingly.  If it all works,  then next year we'll all be strutting about with huge and silly grins on our faces.  If it doesn't,  then be prepared to blow a great deal of dosh!!

Alec.


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## watertray53 (30 March 2010)

Thank you to  ofcourseyoucan,  lozziehumphreys and   a1b2c3 for your input. I have sent you all a PM . What a great Forum this is!


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## Springs (30 March 2010)

Hi,

I have been looking into this and have have establised the following costs as a rough guide:

stud fee £?
ET work £800
hire of loan mare £1200

The £800 is per cycle.

Tremlows offer a ET package at acouple of the top cometitions for £5k so I would assume that is allowings for a couple of ET, STUD FEE AND MARE HIRE.

Another option may be Embryo freezing! This is a higher risk at the present time but in the long term it would work out cheaper as you could recover the embryo and freeze it. When you then have a suitable mare cycling you could then TF the embryo. I think tremlows have one of the leading vets on this working there now.

Spring


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## KarynK (31 March 2010)

Just thinking that you could probably pick yourself up a failed racehorse for peanuts to save on mare costs a nice big TB would be a good option if size is a factor, if you take the trouble to re school her at the end of the process then you could sell her on to a good home and cover most of your keep costs?


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## Chick1989 (31 March 2010)

For all those interested I have had this sent to be by Twemlows:

Vet Package Fees:

ET fresh & chilled semen: £175 per cycle
ET frozen semen: £245 per cycle
Synchronisation of recipient mare for ET: £110 per R mare per AI cycle (minimum of 2 recipients!)
ET transfer flush and search: £200 per flush
NON-surgical transfer to recipient mare: £110 per transfer
ET loan mare: 1275 for 18 months or until weaned

IN FOAL fee- £160

ALL PRICES ARE PLUS VAT

Vet contract:

Mares will be accepted at 'all in  package' to cover ROUTINE veterinary reproduction work at Twemlows H Stud Farm. ROUTINE includes scans,call out,drugs and ONE PD scan at 15 days, the second scan at 28/30 days and the third at 42 days; it does NOT include swabs, twinny, caslicks,lavage etc. 

ALL in foal mares need to have a 28 and 40 days PD scan to confirm a single viable and healthy pregnancy; if mares leave the stud before the heart beat scan it is up to the owner to arrange for this to be carried out. 

I have a friend who used Twemlows and all went according to plan and her bill was £1,180 so I am budgeting £1500 and keeping my fingers crossed.... all mares also have to have blood tests and the I will defo have a 60 day scan. 

XxX


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## Bearskin (31 March 2010)

Am amazed at the cost of loaning a  recipient mare, considering that people are "giving" broodmares away in the current financial climate.


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## Alec Swan (2 April 2010)

I had intending replying before now,  but I've been engrossed in the thread Happy Days For ISH Breeders.  It's remarkable!

For a moment we'll ignore the financial risks attached to failure.  

Bearskin,  you're right.  We have the offer of 5 recipient mares,  and they're all free.  Finding 5 more would be simplicity itself.

Chick1989,  from the head of your list you say that "ET fresh & chilled etc.......". I take it that you mean the initial AI of the donor mare.  If we assume that your friend's mare held to the first attempt,  then that was indeed good fortune.  If we round that figure up to £1200,  then we have to add the cost of a hired in mare,  another £1200 or there abouts,  and then on top of that the stud fee.  Another £800+++? plus semen shipping costs.  We've now reached the figure of £3200.  If either the donor,  or recipient mare fails at the first attempt,  then the second go at it will add a further £1200 to the bill.  In the event that the recipient mare fails to hold to the second attempt,  then generally,  so I'm told,  a second mare is tried.  I strongly suspect that the recipient mare is the most vital part of the equation.  There will be the additional costs of a reproductive "vetting" on all mares. 

Karynk,  as Bearskin.

Springs,  that's a realistic approach,  and we must bare in mind the £800 PER CYCLE.  I'm really not too sure about freezing embryos.  There is no doubt that every time that the reproductive plans are mucked about with,  so we lessen the chance of success.  With a standard transfer,  we stand a 50% chance of success.  Killing of the male,  or female semen,  lessens that chance.  Freezing?  God knows!

There is no question that using the experienced reproductive centres,  makes perfect sense.  In both Argentina,  and Australia,  on Polo studs,  then Et is treated as we treat AI.

lozziehumphreys,  I'd be concerned about "we are paying a deposit,  and then the rest of the fee after a positive scan".  After a positive scan?  I suspect that you'll get the same bill,  positive or otherwise!

I realise than I'm concentrating on the negative aspect of all this,  but in the event that any of us spend £5k+ and end up with nothing,  then we have to consider whether we can live with that.

Some purposeful input from Andypandy,  or Twemlowes,  or Beaufort,  wouldn't hurt.

I genuinely wish you all well,  and if my plans fail,  and yours all work,  then I will be truly pleased for you.  It will be interesting to see how things work out!

Alec.


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## Touchwood (2 April 2010)

Alec, I can answer your point in reference to lozziehumphreys post, as it is with us that her mares are!  The second fee is NOT payable until you have a 60 day positive scan in a recipient mare.

We have developed the package in conjuction with our stud vet, who was actually one of the original vets doing embryo transfer, in a lovely twist of fate we actually had his first embryo transfer foal here as a mare for AI last season.  He appreciates that without pregnancies we do make a loss on the price we quote clients, but we are trying to encourage more people to do embryo transfer - and one way of doing this is to ensure that people do not end up having to spend a fortune and having no pregnancy at the end of it.  We also of course have confidence in our success rates, rate for last year was 72% success rate of pregnancies in recipient mares (percentage is combined for flushes/pregnancy in recipient mares).


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## Alec Swan (2 April 2010)

Touchwood,

thank you for that.  I'm impressed and staggered,  in equal measure,  and I mean that.  Providing that you have confidence in the mare which you're dealing with,  then I think that sharing the risk with your owner is entirely honourable.

I'm certain that I'm not alone in believing that there have been studs and stallion owners,  to whom I've sent mares,  in the past,  who really didn't care whether a mare leaves them in foal,  or not.  It's been win-win for them.

I'm really not too keen on starting a fresh thread,  as I'm bored with the Free Return nonsense!  Again,  credit is due to you.  Perhaps those who are giving ET serious thought should beat a path to your door.  Were I not committed,  then I most certainly would.

Alec.


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## watertray53 (2 April 2010)

I just thought I would add a little bit more interest to this thread because from reading other popular posts everything seems to about the dam line....

What if you could buy the 'eggs' of a fantastic performance donor mare and therefore guarantee the dam line!  Would this take breeding a super star from a dream to a real possibility?

Would the owners of performance mares be willing to sell embryo's?  If so would the price make this unrealistic option!

Could this be how sport horses and ponies are going to be bred in 20 years time?

I would also value some input from AndyPandy on this line of thought.


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## Touchwood (2 April 2010)

Alec, I have always been incredibly picky about the vets I work with.  I have a certain philosophy about running our stud, having originally started as a mare owner who got very screwed over by people trying to make money out of me and having very questionable practices, so I'm always very client-orientated, and expect my vets to approach the work we do with the same attitude as me.
I am fortunate in working with a stud vet who is incredibly passionate about his work, and who wants the mare owners to be happy.  You have to weight up what you want to achieve with something when you are running a business, personally I do not want to make money at the cost of satisfied clients.  People are often terrified of Embryo Transfer, and to a lesser extent Frozen AI - they shouldn't be, it just needs to be done properly.


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## Chick1989 (2 April 2010)

Watertray53:

I own an advanced event mare and I would certainly be interested in selling eggs/embryos... I'm not sure what the better one would be. 

I have often thought this recently as I seem to constantly have embryo transfer in my head! I think they would be realistically priced but obviously it would vary on the mare.... an egg/embryo from Headley Brit would probably be fortune but you may also produce a star another advanced mare such as my own or the one Alec is using!  

There are such a small amount of talented mares around if you find one that is competing at Advanced level it is obviously very talented but probably affordable. The only thing about this would be the amount you could do it. You may only be able to do it once or twice a year on a mare in full competition such as mine as she couldn't afford more time out than that.  

Its defo a very interesting thought, and I agree, since a foal is supposed to take 70% of its attributes from its mother, it may well be the future of breeding.  

I am looking for another broodmare if any one has one for loan....? As described by another forum poster, it seems ridiculously costly to borrow a mare from Twemlows or another when they are being given away left right and centre! Whoever releases their mare on loan gets all costs of that mare paid for for the 18 months its with the foal and has (hopefully) a successful ET to put to her name! I have one ex racer lined up and now need another little warm cosy tummy for my badminton pony to grow in! 

X Lottie X


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## shirleyno2 (2 April 2010)

a1b2c3 said:



			Touchwood,

I'm certain that I'm not alone in believing that there have been studs and stallion owners,  to whom I've sent mares,  in the past,  who really didn't care whether a mare leaves them in foal,  or not.  It's been win-win for them.

Alec.
		
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Alec, I have to state that I take offence to your above comment. I have no idea where you sent your mares, but I will categorically state that at my stud, we bend over backwards to get mares pregnant. That's why we catch over 20 mares a day to scan when needed, even the ones that are tricky as hell to catch/lead/scan. [!]
 To say its a win-win situation is ridiculous bumph, grooms need wages, mares need tending, stallions need collecting from..... In fact that is a really stupid comment.


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## Chick1989 (2 April 2010)

shirleyno2:

Alec, I have to state that I take offence to your above comment. I have no idea where you sent your mares, but I will categorically state that at my stud, we bend over backwards to get mares pregnant. That's why we catch over 20 mares a day to scan when needed, even the ones that are tricky as hell to catch/lead/scan. [!]
To say its a win-win situation is ridiculous bumph, grooms need wages, mares need tending, stallions need collecting from..... In fact that is a really stupid comment.

I think this reply is more unnecessary than Alecs comment! Its not like he is offending your stud and i'm sure there are some studs that do do as Alec says, if you don't that's great for you and good on you.... but it would be unrealistic and naive to think they all have such high standards- although I'm sure the majority do.  

x


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## jamesmead (3 April 2010)

"There are such a small amount of talented mares around if you find one that is competing at Advanced level it is obviously very talented "

I think rather that there are plenty of talented mares around but they are busy breeding! A mare competing at Advanced level, though talented as a competition horse, is unproven (unless used at stud earlier) as a progenitor; she's not necessarily going to reproduce her own quality, so unless she's mega talented or you know the family (say, she's your own mare and you have real faith in her) embryo transfer is a bit of a gamble; you are going to a lot of trouble and expense when you might have similar but untapped talent in your own field. Different if she has already produced very high quality foals, of course; say, her owner had already demonstrated what could be done by ET-ing her previously.

I too think that there are some studs out there that are less than professional, but I can see why Alec's constant suspicion of stallion owners generally, does begin to grate a bit upon those who do a highly professional job with the sort of dedication that most professionals wouldn't begin to dream of; inseminating mares at the right time is a 24hr job and foaling them is a highly stressful nightshift!

What does make me chuckle a bit is that despite his mistrust Alec is now going ahead with-what is it? FIVE? matings! So plenty of stress to come, Alec! Enjoy!


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## Chick1989 (3 April 2010)

Well its less of a gamble than breeding from a mare that is younger and therefore less proven! As long as you put your mare with an appropriate stallion just cant see you not getting a very high quality foal; therefore in my eyes its a much better way of breeding. Yes if she had produced a foal as a youngster and that also was very talented then there would be more proof that she will produce talented progeny...But in my mares case she would probably not be advanced by the age of 9! I think the odds of getting a rubbish performer are very low! Headley Brits foals are being sold for 1k per 1% of share held.....!


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## watertray53 (3 April 2010)

Chick 1989.

 You and I seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet! 
That if you breed from the best using proven serious competition mares with the best stallions = potentially gifted foals. Though nurture and opportunity of the gifted must also come into play. As you say Headley Brits babies and also Kings Temptress babies are certianly going to be ones to watch for future success.

My original idea was.... would it be possible for an ordinary, though serious in intent breeder to buy an egg / embryo from such a competition mare and then using transfer breed a potential super star? If you need at least two recipiant mares for the transplant process and up to four eggs can be produced from a donor then selling 'extra' eggs seems to make financial sense.

With the Easter Bunny in mind
I for one would jump at a chance of securing such an egg but would the cost be the downfall of my plans?


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## Chick1989 (3 April 2010)

Yes Watertray, I think it is entirely possible for an 'ordinary' breeder to do as you say!

I think this is how it would work... we will use my mare as an example:

I would advertise my mares embryos..... 'Embryo transfer from advanced event mare available'. You would then think ummmmm sounds like a fantastic opportunity....Ring me and effectively 'buy' that embryo from me. You would then choose a stallion of your choice and use my mares embryo and your chosen stallions semen! As with semen, the payment for the embryo would be under some sort of No foal-No fee agreement and you would pay for the ET to be done and your stallion fees! 

Say for example I offer the embryo at 1k.... this would then increase with performance as with stallions. As a mare owner I would be able to do this maybe twice a year considering her full event calender and you would therefore reserve one of the two dates... whichever would be preferable. 

If more than one egg was fertilised I suppose it would be up to you if you took the second foal and I would maybe have first refusal on it.  

Costs wise... if you think how much it is just to hire a broodmare, 1k for an embryo is very affordable as you can quite easily find a loan broodmare these days!

What are your thoughts.... would this work?

X


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## angrovestud (3 April 2010)

Not to be Pedantic, but an Embryo is a early pregnancy and an Ovum or Egg,  an Egg in your mare that you might be selling best to be right when your selling something.


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## jamesmead (3 April 2010)

"Well its less of a gamble than breeding from a mare that is younger and therefore less proven! As long as you put your mare with an appropriate stallion just cant see you not getting a very high quality foal"

Firstly the cost is much higher; therefore the gamble is greater; you have invested more in it.
Secondly the annals of breeding are littered with offspring who are inferior to their parents; with an unproven breeding mare (however good she is in competition) you are gambling. In fact the airy cheerfulness of "just cant see you not getting a very high quality foal" makes me wince... 

I think your pricing is therefore unrealistic; given that breeders will baulk at £600 for a relatively unproven stallion (ie performance tested, graded, 2 or 3 foals on the ground) so £1k for an embryo from a mare who is even less proven, with less guarantee of a replacement embryo if anything goes wrong (since eggs are less available than semen) is a huge gamble, given the extra cost of production. She would have to be an exceptional, not just a good, performer and well related, with dam and siblings showing similar promise for this to be worthwhile.


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## jamesmead (3 April 2010)

angrovestud said:



			Not to be Pedantic, but an Embryo is a early pregnancy and an Ovum or Egg,  an Egg in your mare that you might be selling best to be right when your selling something.
		
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Lol! totally right Angrove and I have continued the error!


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## Chick1989 (3 April 2010)

angrovestud said:



			Not to be Pedantic, but an Embryo is a early pregnancy and an Ovum or Egg,  an Egg in your mare that you might be selling best to be right when your selling something.
		
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Just as well it was only an example then.... its called brain storming a new idea. 

'Firstly the cost is much higher; therefore the gamble is greater; you have invested more in it.
Secondly the annals of breeding are littered with offspring who are inferior to their parents; with an unproven breeding mare (however good she is in competition) you are gambling. In fact the airy cheerfulness of "just cant see you not getting a very high quality foal" makes me wince... 

I think your pricing is therefore unrealistic; given that breeders will baulk at £600 for a relatively unproven stallion (ie performance tested, graded, 2 or 3 foals on the ground) so £1k for an embryo from a mare who is even less proven, with less guarantee of a replacement embryo if anything goes wrong (since eggs are less available than semen) is a huge gamble, given the extra cost of production. She would have to be an exceptional, not just a good, performer and well related, with dam and siblings showing similar promise for this to be worthwhile.

AGAIN.... only an example.... I have no idea how much you would charge.... and as I said.... I was only using my mare as an example to make the idea between watertray and myself easier to explain! 

So are you slating ET altogether then due to its expense and therefore risk..... ye its an expensive process but when you have a talented mare you are willing to take that risk!

It is only by taking gambles and risks that you achieve great things.


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## jamesmead (3 April 2010)

"So are you slating ET altogether then due to its expense and therefore risk..... ye its an expensive process but when you have a talented mare you are willing to take that risk!"

No, not slating it; in fact I even looked into using it for my own mare, many years ago, but in the end her health did not permit it (this was a very new technology at that time and I saw it as offering a last chance to breed from an exceptional mare whom injury had sidelined and who was already in extreme old age). So no, not against it at all; I even think the idea of selling eggs has some mileage. However I think you have to have a very good reason to warrant the extra expense; the mare concerned has to be exceptional in terms of the stock she produces for her eggs to be a commercial property and I feel you have to be able to prove her commerciality to potential buyers. It was easier for me; my mare had produced a couple of foals before her injury so I had some idea of what she could produce plus it was a personal thing, if you see what I mean; not a commercial venture; I wasn't asking someone else to put that faith in my judgement and back it with their cash.


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## Alec Swan (3 April 2010)

James,

further to your first post.  Your first para was a quote,  so on to the third.  I will no longer take part in forum ire.  I accept that I've berated the less than honest,  and do those people deserve better treatment?  That will be for others to consider.  I suppose that I only have myself to blame for displaying a level of gullibility which was probably viewed as manna from heaven!  I would,  none the less,  still prefer to trust my fellow man.

I would suggest that the night shift in a comparatively warm barn is to be preferred to lambing 600 ewes outside in weather conditions which sometimes tests one's resolve!  A mare will be standing in a stable,  not so the daft shearling ewe which needs to be caught,  and in the pouring rain,  and when you've caught her and managed to get the huge single lamb out,  and then she has no interest in her lamb,  then you have to spend the next 20 minutes persuading her that it is hers,  and that she bloody well will care for it,  and it's still raining!  I have a thorough understanding of the night shift.  

So now to the meat of your post,  and where to begin?  When I decided to improve what I was doing,  I considered the stallion alone.  How wrong I was.  Having listened to and considered the opinions of those who are far more experienced,  and many on this forum,  I have come up with the following thoughts;  If a potential brood mare displays a technique which is technically correct,  in other words she has a frame shape which will allow her to perform as her principals would wish,  and then vitally,  if she can cope with the pressure of being asked to give more,  then her breeding is of a secondary consideration.  Rather,  her breeding should be considered as a bonus.  If a mare is unable to jump,  for instance,  or worse is able to but wont,  then her breeding is of little importance.  Breed with her if you will,  I wouldn't.

I would imagine,  that a mare which has reached an advanced level,  will have displayed the required qualities.  She is able,  and she is also rideable.  Breeding alone simply isn't enough.

Generally,  and so I understand,  maiden mares are rarely used as ET donors.  In the event that a mare foals as a four year old,  then goes on to an illustrious career,  then there is a youngster.  Was the stallion choice correct?  Only time will tell.  Presumably the owner will then source the right stallion for her.

I would be happy to be told,  and in as kindly a fashion as you can manage,  that I'm wrong.

Your last paragraph,  we are planning for two foals,  and for that we've managed to source four mares,  and with an owned mare that makes five.  Best to have spares,  so I understand!

Alec.


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## jamesmead (4 April 2010)

LOL, Alec, if you understand the night shift then you also understand how offensive it is when someone hints darkly that farmers just live off subsidies rather than doing a proper job and as a result are massively and undeservedly wealthy. YOU know you work for your living; now you also know that quite a few stallion owners work for theirs, too!

"If a potential brood mare displays a technique which is technically correct, in other words she has a frame shape which will allow her to perform as her principals would wish, and then vitally, if she can cope with the pressure of being asked to give more, then her breeding is of a secondary consideration. Rather, her breeding should be considered as a bonus. If a mare is unable to jump, for instance, or worse is able to but wont, then her breeding is of little importance. Breed with her if you will, I wouldn't.

I would imagine, that a mare which has reached an advanced level, will have displayed the required qualities. She is able, and she is also rideable. Breeding alone simply isn't enough."



I think you have misunderstood me here, Alec. Basically I am saying that embryo transfer is still an expensive method of breeding a foal; therefore whilst every mating is to some extent a gamble, the cost involved in using embryo transfer (and specifically, here, in buying an embryo from someone else's mare, possibly at the cost of a second stud fee) makes it important to minimise the gamble, unless you have deep pockets and a reckless streak. 

In a mature competition horse, which can go out and do the job; yes, the breeding becomes increasingly irrelevant; the competition horse is the finished article and it doesn't really matter who its parents were; they've done their bit and you've got what you've got. 
And yes; if you then breed from that horse you do at least know that half its genes must be basically what you want for it to perform as it does. Its the other half of its genes you have to worry about; without reference to the breeding you have no idea what they are or what your foal could be like. 

In a freakishly good competition animal there is a very good chance that that part of the genetic heritage which is not apparent is also not as good; so, no guarantees. 

Again, that a mare is proven in competition is a good thing, but that a mare hasn't competed doesn't mean that she is necessarily worse than one who has; if she has already produced high level performers rather than being one, IMO she is a better bet as a brood mare (or egg donor) than an "uproven" brood mare who competes herself.


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## watertray53 (4 April 2010)

So it would appear from many of the replies ' That it is all about cost and realisim'.

Perhaps egg transfer would be more of a cost effective option for breeding a potential super star if the inital cost of buying the egg was matched to how many talented offspring the donor had produced? 
This would also work to the benefit of the donors owner/agent,that the potential market 'fee' would increase as more offspring are competed and make their mark. It would also enable those who do not own a star brood mare but who have researched dam line pedigrees and who have the courage of thier conviction to give it a go!

Perhaps this will be the way that serious competition horses/ponies will be conceived in 10 years time? A thought that interests me greatly.


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## Chick1989 (4 April 2010)

watertray53 said:



			So it would appear from many of the replies ' That it is all about cost and realisim'.

Perhaps egg transfer would be more of a cost effective option for breeding a potential super star if the inital cost of buying the egg was matched to how many talented offspring the donor had produced? 
This would also work to the benefit of the donors owner/agent,that the potential market 'fee' would increase as more offspring are competed and make their mark. It would also enable those who do not own a star brood mare but who have researched dam line pedigrees and who have the courage of thier conviction to give it a go!

Perhaps this will be the way that serious competition horses/ponies will be conceived in 10 years time? A thought that interests me greatly.
		
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Watertray.... i'm afraid I see a glitch in this plan..... for you to know a mare is talented, say at advanced level eventing or in any other discipline, you would have to say she is likely to be 9 or 10.... 8 at best.... if this is the time you would have a transfer her offspring cant be said to be talented until 5... 4 at best... by which time the donor mare is 12 and becoming more and more infertile in terms of ET capabilities .......SO you could be selling very cheap embryos until she is too infertile to bother putting the price up..... A mare unlike  stallion can only be used a few times a year, making the potential demand higher and therefore allowing the price to be a fair amount. 

At the end of the day, if you want to buy into a potential advanced horse you have to be willing to pay a decent amount of money..... There are plenty of relatively unproven, averagely bred horses on the market for 10k upwards as 5 and 6 year olds. By buying an embryo/egg you are probably going to spend 5.5k altogether. .... and less if you have your own recipient mare.... AND guarantee a very commercial foal to start with as well as a fab horse for your self in the future.

An English agent told me the other day he sold a Jag Mail 3 month old foal that's dam was advanced for 15k. 

I would prefer to pay for an embryo from a super mare... put it with an appropriate stallion and create your own ideal horse that you can watch grow and mature and eventually compete than breed from a normal mare and a brilliant stallion for maybe just half the cost of an ET procedure (based on AI).


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## Alec Swan (4 April 2010)

James,  it may well be that we can find common ground!

I wouldn't be in the least offended,  by the complaints of those who will criticise the SFP.  It's obscene,  nothing more,  or less,  but the need for it has been brought about by inept government,  and an even more shameful EU!  It's another subject,  for another time.  

That there are MANY stud farms who do their level best for their owners,  their horses,  and ultimately their own families,  has never been in question,  and I have NEVER said otherwise.  I have found a stud,  just South of Newmarket, where I'm sending one mare to foal and be re-covered,  and another for a straight forward AI.  Having researched these particular people,  extensively,  I have heard nothing but good.  It would be a just criticism to advise that I should have done research previously!!

I would suggest,  as an example,  that Touchwood,  who has responded to this thread, has demonstrated an entirely fair and strait forward approach. 

There is no question that ET is expensive,  but is it, really?  Take for example the thoughts of watertray53 and Chick1989.  I'm staggered that no one has considered their thoughts before.  I spend my life looking for fresh angles,  and I can't imagine why I hadn't beaten them to it!

Let us for a moment consider that your one ambition was to breed a top class event horse.  Let us now imagine that you one day received a 'phone call from the owners of,  let's say Hedley Britannia.  Continuing with this fantasy,  what would your reaction be if they then said,  "Would you like to make your own stallion choice,  and have a foal from our mare?"  I know what my reaction would be,  and I'd pray for a filly!  

Are the suggestions of the above two posters any different?  That it would be fraught with problems,  must be obvious.  There would be a most certain need for clear and binding agreements,  and that it all needs serious thought must be obvious.  If we only rely upon breeding,  or a retired mare,  then surely the option of a successful,  reasonably young and competing mare should be very attractive.  The success rates from young mares are improved.  You will have a mare who will hopefully have a strong dam line to support her,  and with a careful and researched matching to the correct stallion,  I would have thought that the costs weren't actually that bad,  when compared with the cheaper option of a standard covering to a mare with no real record,  and again,  there is still the increased chance of failure.

The mare which has never competed will have had four or five foals before the eldest are able to demonstrate whether the choices are correct.  The mare herself,  though biddable and easily handled,  may be an idiot under saddle.  The Advanced mare,  having succeeded,  will have demonstrated that she has the ability to transfer those desirable qualities into her foal.

I accept that the mare which hasn't competed shouldn't be discarded,  but I would also suggest that the failure rate of the offspring from these mares will be far higher than those from a mare which has mileage.

It would be helpful if those with a record of breeding successful competition horses would join in and offer their views.  I,  for one would be interested to hear the replies.

Alec.


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## watertray53 (4 April 2010)

It would be helpful if those with a record of breeding successful competition horses would join in and offer their views. I, for one would be interested to hear the replies.

Me to Alec !


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## Hollycat (4 April 2010)

I think its worth remembering that everyone has very different requirements and lifestyles and no one size fits all.  I would LOVE a really nice horse, but if I am honest I am a fat middle aged woman who can only afford one horse at a time.  I don't want to look out for and buy a top class brood mare as I would have to choose between mare and foal.  If I was offered the egg of a mare that really performs AND has a very strong damline I would jump at the chance of using a stallion of my choice. Most top bloodlined broodmares are put to a stallion that will produce a potential top performer - if she is a sane and sensible mare then a stallion that consistently passes on a great temprement, easy for amateurs to ride isn't the no 1 consideration for that mare.  But it IS the no 1 consideration for me!!!!!  So it is harder for me for example to go to the elite auctions and find (and afford) that ideal foal or to find one privately bred, bearing in mind lots of studs will keep their best foals and not sell them on.  There are people on this board and I drool when I look at their foals, but who would really want to sell their top prospect to fat middle aged lady (albeit a good home)?  Yes breeding any foal is a risk but if I can find a top class sensible damline and use the stallion of my choice, then I have more of a chance of breeding a foal that meets my requirements (as well as the fun of breeding the foal) than perhaps looking for years for a foal that ticks all the boxes.


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## Chick1989 (4 April 2010)

Hollycat said:



			I think its worth remembering that everyone has very different requirements and lifestyles and no one size fits all.  I would LOVE a really nice horse, but if I am honest I am a fat middle aged woman who can only afford one horse at a time.  I don't want to look out for and buy a top class brood mare as I would have to choose between mare and foal.  If I was offered the egg of a mare that really performs AND has a very strong damline I would jump at the chance of using a stallion of my choice. Most top bloodlined broodmares are put to a stallion that will produce a potential top performer - if she is a sane and sensible mare then a stallion that consistently passes on a great temprement, easy for amateurs to ride isn't the no 1 consideration for that mare.  But it IS the no 1 consideration for me!!!!!  So it is harder for me for example to go to the elite auctions and find (and afford) that ideal foal or to find one privately bred, bearing in mind lots of studs will keep their best foals and not sell them on.  There are people on this board and I drool when I look at their foals, but who would really want to sell their top prospect to fat middle aged lady (albeit a good home)?  Yes breeding any foal is a risk but if I can find a top class sensible damline and use the stallion of my choice, then I have more of a chance of breeding a foal that meets my requirements (as well as the fun of breeding the foal) than perhaps looking for years for a foal that ticks all the boxes.
		
Click to expand...

I think the point of view Hollycat is great..... This opinion is from a real lady rider with normal circumstances and normal view points and, correct if I am wrong, you are not planning an ET yourself so have no real bias opinions!

To find a foal or young horse that suits you completely is a tough task. At least if you had the chance of buying an embryo from a fantastic horse and choosing your own sire.... be it a 'world beater' or a more 'normal' stallion, you are getting what you want.... and as described above you also get the enjoyment of 'borrowing' or leasing a broodmare and giving it back once your special baby is weaned! 

xxx


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## AJBliss (4 April 2010)

I have seen custom ET foals offered in the U.S. before, it is not a new idea, but would certainly require a lot of thinking through as far as contracts go for both parties.  Additionally, if the donor is currently in competition, that may pose problems--studies have shown that exercise which elevates core temperature can reduce embryo recovery rates.  This is something which the buyer should consider, in addition to the logistics of getting the mare which is in work in for synchronisation, breeding, and flushing around a competition schedule.  Perhaps more than once if the first/second attempt are unsuccessful.  Embryo freezing and shipping could be a good option, allowing you to avoid the synchronisation altogether, and I believe some specialists in the UK are beginning to offer this service.


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## linali (4 April 2010)

Im not an expert on ET but another angle to the argument is if you do own a top well bred broodie (not comp horse) it would be cheaper to use ET that buy a mare of similar a standard. I know people say you can pick up a well bred mare for next to nothing, but I would have to disagree.  A top broodie with a top dam line is not cheap, nor should it be.
On the subject of selling eggs, this is not a new concept.  I  know that the mare Lakotah ( dam of Utah Van Erpekom) is available for this service!


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## Alec Swan (4 April 2010)

[QUOTE  A top broodie with a top dam line is not cheap, nor should it be.  [/QUOTE]

Absolutely right.

Alec.


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## jamesmead (5 April 2010)

As watertray pointed out, all a matter of weighing costs and probabilities against possibilities; but, Alec:

"The mare which has never competed will have had four or five foals before the eldest are able to demonstrate whether the choices are correct." 

as will the mare who HAS competed! and:

"The Advanced mare, having succeeded, will have demonstrated that she has the ability to transfer those desirable qualities into her foal."

Well, no! Not until she has had those four or five foals out and doing things, like the mare who hasn't competed. She WILL have demonstrated that she has abilities herself, which she MAY pass on; but not that she WILL pass them on, what sort of stallion would enable her to do so or whether there are other elements hidden in her genetic makeup which she may also pass on even though you'd rather she didn't!

It might be worthwhile for those who intend to compete their mares and feel that they will go to high level to collect and freeze a few eggs early on (am I right in thinking you can do that now? Or do they have to be fertilised?) and maybe produce a couple of foals themselves to show what she can do as a brood mare.


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## watertray53 (5 April 2010)

Quote:

It might be worthwhile for those who intend to compete their mares and feel that they will go to high level to collect and freeze a few eggs early on ....

or, as I sugested in an earlier post, let someone who wanted to breed a 'potential' star use them in transfer so that in 5 years down the line there are progeny competing.


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## jamesmead (5 April 2010)

Well, yes! Rather like the low cost coverings offered by the owners of young stallions at the start of their careers to get some stock on the ground. 

Of course eggs are going to be a more valuable commodity than semen as rarer and more trouble to collect etc. and some mares (Headley Britannia again!) would always be expensive on performance record alone; still a gamble, not a certainty, but a very attractive one, especially as I think breeders are gamblers by nature (or else they'd just go out and buy a horse). However, I can see the sort of market developing as with promising young stallions where mares who seem to be fast tracked for success (eg owned by someone with the ability to compete them) are groomed to be lucrative future egg donors by breeding a few trial foals in this way.


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## Alec Swan (6 April 2010)

James,

Quote "Of course eggs are going to be a more valuable commodity than semen as rarer and more trouble to collect etc." unquote.

Eggs are 90p a dozen from Waitrose.  In the case of equines,  separating the egg from the follicle is under research,  but the chances of success are remote,  at best.  We have to realise that it's the fertilised EMBRYO which is under discussion.  There's a world of difference between an egg,  and an embryo.

From the point of view of the buyer,  it's a brilliant idea.  There is,  however a huge obstacle to overcome,  it's recently occurred to me.

This is rather following on from the thoughts of AJBliss.  The owner of the donor mare will,  presumably,  have their mare in training.  The donor mare,  and probably two recipient mares are going to have to be synchronised.  Ideally they will all be at the same centre/establishment. 

Assuming that the donor mare holds to the AI,  then after six days,  the embryo(s) will be flushed out,  and trapped.  Those embryo(s) will then be transferred to the recipient mare(s).  Most certainly the mares will all need to be at the same ET centre.  Have we really thought this through?  I'm starting to!

If the donor mare is to be shipped backwards and forwards to the relevant centre,  and she's with a pro,  then I suspect that they may become a little irritated with the too-ing and fro-ing.

Further to the above mentioned post by AJBliss.  I too wondered whether fit mares would have a problem with producing viable follicles.  I 'phoned two ET centres,  and they both said that it wouldn't make a scrap of difference.  The advice does seem to be rather contradictory,  doesn't it?  For myself,  I'd rather go along with the advice of the doubters,  even though we are going down the very same route!!

My current level of thinking is that if the donor mare's owner was prepared to endure all the buggering about,  then yes,  the idea would interest me greatly.  The major question would be that in the event of a first failure,  would the donor mare owner,  or the trainer,  be prepared to continue with further attempts?

Alec.


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## AJBliss (6 April 2010)

Hi Alec,

I am not speaking from personal ET experience, as I am a non-vet, however in the literature review I have done, I came across a recent study (Mortensen et al, 2009) which divided mares into a non-exercised and an exercised (30 min daily @ average >30C temp, >50% humidity) group.  Rectal temps on the exercised mares averaged nearly 2C higher post-exercise than pre-exercise.  All were AI'd, and flushed; exercised mares had 34% embryo recovery rate, non-exercised 63%.  Exercised mares' embryos were also graded at a lower quality on average, which would likely make a difference in freezability were they hoping to go that route.  Of course, these experimental conditions were daily work in a hot environment (Texas!) which may not be as much of an problem here in the U.K., and may be why you were told it's a non-issue.  I'm sure people who are doing a lot of ET's have a better idea of how different exercise regimens effect their results in this specific locality--there are a number of polo mares having ET foals, I think, and they are certainly fit and work hard.  

I have been enjoying the conversation on this thread, and wish all of you embarking on ET programs lots of luck and first-cycle fertility!


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## watertray53 (6 April 2010)

Just out of general interest, does anyone on the forum have any statistics for mares competing at intermediate or advanced or pony FEI eventing or grade A or JA show jumping?


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