# Lesley Skipper GUILTY



## FairyLights (14 September 2012)

Details in H&H news. Caused suffering to 4 horses. Dispicable.


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## Alec Swan (14 September 2012)

Nice pic,  except that she resembles a rather bloated cockatoo.

Alec.


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## perfect11s (14 September 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Nice pic,  except that she resembles a rather bloated cockatoo.

Alec.
		
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 That's not fair to cockatoos     Hit with the ugly bat or maybe hit the ugly bat!!!


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## Penny Less (14 September 2012)

Another so called expert being found out, disgusting people


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## ILuvCowparsely (14 September 2012)

looks a bit like a puffa fish


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## Flame_ (14 September 2012)

I read about this on Arabian Lines. Good to see H&Hers not holding back. 

What a disgrace.


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## KierelyMiss (14 September 2012)

she wrote books on horses???


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## Tzarinaarabians (14 September 2012)

Flame_ said:



			I read about this on Arabian Lines. Good to see H&Hers not holding back. 

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As a long-time member of AL, the subject of Lesley Skipper has had me fuming, because once again, we have all had to be nicey nicey over the subject and not upset the 'fluffies' who have taken her side.  Why they cant see that a subject like this is bound to create a *'heated debate' *amazes me.

Its an utter disgrace  and to think she wrote books on the horse's welfare and is currently in the middle of writing another one.


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## Petethehunt (14 September 2012)

I just hope no one buys her books, they sell on Amazon. Reading her bio in one her books seen on Amazon she is friends with Dr Kiley Worthington who had very different ideas to others about keeping horses.
Don't you find that those who teach don't often 'do'.


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## fburton (14 September 2012)

Tzarinaarabians said:



			Why they cant see that a subject like this is bound to create a *'heated debate' *amazes me.
		
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Heated debate over what?


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## Maesfen (14 September 2012)

Tzarinaarabians said:



As a long-time member of AL, the subject of Lesley Skipper has had me fuming, because once again, we have all had to be nicey nicey over the subject and not upset the 'fluffies' who have taken her side.  Why they cant see that a subject like this is bound to create a *'heated debate' *amazes me.

Its an utter disgrace  and to think she wrote books on the horse's welfare and is currently in the middle of writing another one.  

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Because I'm a newcomer to AL I've held back and not said anything but it's hard to see how they can justify their support of her just because she is/was a 'name'.  Utterly despicable


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## MotherOfChickens (14 September 2012)

Petethehunt said:



			I just hope no one buys her books, they sell on Amazon. Reading her bio in one her books seen on Amazon she is friends with Dr Kiley Worthington who had very different ideas to others about keeping horses.
Don't you find that those who teach don't often 'do'.
		
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Dr Kiley Worthington may be 'different' but not necessarily wrong! don't see the need to apply guilt by association to the people who may have associated with Skipper over her lifetime.


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## Brightbay (14 September 2012)

peteralfred said:



			Dr Kiley Worthington may be 'different' but not necessarily wrong! don't see the need to apply guilt by association to the people who may have associated with Skipper over her lifetime.
		
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Precisely.

And regardless of the facts of the case or the conviction, making comments on someone based on their appearance says a lot more about the person making the comments than it does about the subject of those comments.


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## Echo Bravo (14 September 2012)

Thought I saw in the H/H that she wrote The Horse's Mind, but no it's Lucy Rees phew!!.


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## Tzarinaarabians (14 September 2012)

fburton 

It got heated because some of the fluffies on there are feeling sorry for her and feel that she shouldn't be condemned. Plus the head mod likes to rules with a rod of iron and loves nothing more than to delete/lock/edit posts and threads.  Just awaiting the sentencing on Oct 4 and the photographic evidence for them to say she is still innocent


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## Petethehunt (15 September 2012)

Skippers ideals are based on those of Kiley Worthington, not association but admiration from the author Skipper...the only connection. You all read into a post what you want to read.  Skipper is guilty and has caused suffering to horses, she writes books on their care this is why this case is very important to us to talk about, she teaches others yet she herself doesn't do what she teaches.


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## fburton (15 September 2012)

Petethehunt said:



			Skippers ideals are based on those of Kiley Worthington, not association but admiration from the author Skipper...the only connection. You all read into a post what you want to read.  Skipper is guilty and has caused suffering to horses, she writes books on their care this is why this case is very important to us to talk about, she teaches others yet she herself doesn't do what she teaches.
		
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Of course, what someone teaches may be sound, sensible and valuable regardless of whether the person practices what they preach, or whatever else they may or may not have done.


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## MotherOfChickens (15 September 2012)

Petethehunt said:



			You all read into a post what you want to read.
		
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or maybe you should communicate more clearly.


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## perfect11s (15 September 2012)

Brightbay said:



			Precisely.

And regardless of the facts of the case or the conviction, making comments on someone based on their appearance says a lot more about the person making the comments than it does about the subject of those comments.
		
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 Hmm  how ?? oh I get it we should have said she is the victim  or maybe called for a public hanging!!!! not a  harmless little anger venting comment  about her lardass countanance .... If my dog was that ugly I would shave it's arse and teach it to walk backwards ....  Chill peeps only joking


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## Petethehunt (15 September 2012)

peteralfred said:



			or maybe you should communicate more clearly.
		
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I'll communicate clearly then, she is guilty of cruelty yet it seems to me some on here think she shouldn't be. I have only ever looked in here occasionally, cheers for now I won't do again. If people can live with supporting this person who has double standards then so be it. This forum isn't for me.


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## DragonSlayer (15 September 2012)

Petethehunt said:



			I'll communicate clearly then, she is guilty of cruelty yet it seems to me some on here think she shouldn't be. I have only ever looked in here occasionally, cheers for now I won't do again. If people can live with supporting this person who has double standards then so be it. This forum isn't for me.
		
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Hey, don't tar us all with the same brush!

If the woman is guilty, then she is guilty, a court of law has found that. Buy her books? Certainly not...bit of an insult really, talking about care of horses then gets found guilty of cruelty....


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## MotherOfChickens (15 September 2012)

Petethehunt said:



			I'll communicate clearly then, she is guilty of cruelty yet it seems to me some on here think she shouldn't be. I have only ever looked in here occasionally, cheers for now I won't do again. If people can live with supporting this person who has double standards then so be it. This forum isn't for me.
		
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where exactly did I defend Skipper? there is no defence for what she did.


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## ameeyal (15 September 2012)

I havent read any one supporting her on this forum, only on AL forum.


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## gabriel68 (17 September 2012)

Personally I think saying a mental disorder is to blame is wrong.

How many times now do people get away with claiming mental disorders, Bipolar etc etc to get off with something.

The main reason is they were both lazy arses that couldnt be bothered to muck out, you dont get that amount of muck from 6 months and the way she treated that poor poor staliion is beyond beleif.

I hope she hangs her head in shame I really do.

They were found guilty of neglect, awful neglect and no anmount of *fluffy* brigade stuff on Al will change my mind.


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## DressageDiva1962 (17 September 2012)

gabriel68 said:



			Personally I think saying a mental disorder is to blame is wrong.

How many times now do people get away with claiming mental disorders, Bipolar etc etc to get off with something.

The main reason is they were both lazy arses that couldnt be bothered to muck out, you dont get that amount of muck from 6 months and the way she treated that poor poor staliion is beyond beleif.

I hope she hangs her head in shame I really do.

They were found guilty of neglect, awful neglect and no anmount of *fluffy* brigade stuff on Al will change my mind.
		
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Well said !! I've had M.E. for years and at times looking after 3 ponies is a struggle but they never go without and I pride myself on high standards of management .... if it got too much I would ask for help or the ponies would have to go to someone who could care for them properly, I think her books should be taken off sale.


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## guido16 (18 September 2012)

Does this mean I shouldn't have mucked out my horses when it was - 15 deg a few winters ago?

I hope she gets what's coming to her from the courts


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## MM&PP (18 September 2012)

perfect11s said:



			Hmm  how ?? oh I get it we should have said she is the victim  or maybe called for a public hanging!!!! not a  harmless little anger venting comment  about her lardass countanance .... If my dog was that ugly I would shave it's arse and teach it to walk backwards ....  Chill peeps only joking 

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LOL.

Completely agree!!!


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## Alyth (19 September 2012)

I am appalled by the lack of sympathy for a fellow human being.  I know the law system is not always right and it is much easier to be judgemental than compassionate....all I can say is thank God I don't live in the UK any more.  When I was growing up in Devon people were much kinder to other humans, making allowances for human frailties.  NONE OF US ARE PERFECT... remember the old saying "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"??


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## Hedgewitch13 (19 September 2012)

How about having some sympathy for her horses? They are the ones that have suffered!! Poor defenceless animals... just think about what she has done to them - you think that's ok?

She doesn't deserve anything other than my disgust.


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## Koala Kate (19 September 2012)

Alyth.  I hope to god you Havnt got any animals with that attitude


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## Maesfen (19 September 2012)

Alyth said:



			I am appalled by the lack of sympathy for a fellow human being.  I know the law system is not always right and it is much easier to be judgemental than compassionate....all I can say is thank God I don't live in the UK any more.  When I was growing up in Devon people were much kinder to other humans, making allowances for human frailties.  NONE OF US ARE PERFECT... remember the old saying "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"??
		
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Just remember she wasn't too frail to continue writing and being published about horses; she just ignored her own with devastating consequences for them so no, she doesn't deserve any sympathy I'm afraid.


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## perfect11s (19 September 2012)

Alyth said:



			I am appalled by the lack of sympathy for a fellow human being.  I know the law system is not always right and it is much easier to be judgemental than compassionate....all I can say is thank God I don't live in the UK any more.  When I was growing up in Devon people were much kinder to other humans, making allowances for human frailties.  NONE OF US ARE PERFECT... remember the old saying "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"??
		
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 Yawn !!!! no sorry unbelivable you think we should 
feel sorry for a cruel neglectfull hipocitetical bint ??? if she had been hard up and ill maybe there would be grounds for some understanding  there is no excuse for neglect, I understand a village is missing it's idiot...????


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## Koala Kate (20 September 2012)

Are you Lesley ?  Alyth....


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## fburton (20 September 2012)

Koala Kate said:



			Are you Lesley ?  Alyth....
		
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I am pretty sure she isn't (for various reasons). What makes you think she is? And why bother asking anyway?


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## rhino (20 September 2012)

fburton said:



			I am pretty sure she isn't (for various reasons). What makes you think she is? And why bother asking anyway?
		
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Looks like KK won't be able to answer your questions any time soon  Sure she'll be back though. She always is


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## Alyth (20 September 2012)

Koala Kate said:



			Are you Lesley ?  Alyth....
		
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LOL  No!   Why?


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## Koala Kate (21 September 2012)

Just asking ...


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## Alyth (22 September 2012)

Koala Kate said:



			Just asking ...
		
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LOL  Well, that's an underarm bowl if I ever saw one!!!  Typical Ozzie I guess....!!  Just making assumptions as is done here!!!  Must say thanks to fburton thouigh!!!


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## Burmilla (5 October 2012)

So, 4th October was yesterday; we still haven't heard what their sentence will be? Would this stage of the case run more than one day? I suppose it might , if all 3 sides want tp pick holes in each others' expert reports. I do so hope she and he go down. The thought of the lovely Nivalis being in such a dreadful state of neglect, makes me sad and very angry.


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## gabriel68 (15 October 2012)

Apparently they have been fined £250.00 and have been banned indefinately from keeping horses!!!

£250.00 what an absolute joke


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## fburton (15 October 2012)

gabriel68 said:



			Apparently they have been fined £250.00 and have been banned indefinately from keeping horses!!!

£250.00 what an absolute joke

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The fine is an irrelevance. Which would hurt/punish more - having to pay £250 or not being allowed to keep horses?


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## cornbrodolly (15 October 2012)

Met her once, and unfortunately my OH is in one of her books  working with and riding our horses [ she took copious photos that day - and warned us they were her copyright and could never use them].
 Do not wish to be associated with her - disliked her as a 'know-it-all' at the time - she disparaged everyone. £250 is a joke- surely there should have been 0s on the end?


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## DragonSlayer (15 October 2012)

cornbrodolly said:



			Met her once, and unfortunately my OH is in one of her books  working with and riding our horses [ she took copious photos that day - and warned us they were her copyright and could never use them].
 Do not wish to be associated with her - disliked her as a 'know-it-all' at the time - she disparaged everyone. £250 is a joke- surely there should have been 0s on the end?
		
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..but surely you could have refused to have the pictures taken in the first place?


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## Burmilla (15 October 2012)

Well, at least the wretched woman has lost her livlihood, her reputation and her poor horses, as well as never being allowed any others to hurt and exploit. There isn't enough money to pay for what she and her husband did, but it does seem a very paltry sum. No costs against them either. Pity.
Btw, if you read the posts on AL, you will see the so called 'fluffy bunnies" are NOT excusing her behaviour or "sticking up for her": they are trying to understand how this woman changed from being a good horseowner and respected authority on Arabian horses, to a cruel person, in denial about their appalling behaviour to previously well cared for horses.
The posts were trying to understand the process, so that the writers could be forewarned should it appear to be happening again, being perpetrated by previously good enough owners. They are in no way,  imho, excusing what happened, or supporting LS.


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## gabriel68 (16 October 2012)

Perhaps Burmilla there is an ulterior motive to some of the them on AL, the ones we like to call the *fluffies*!!!!!!

Think a certain few only go on to cause trouble and get other forum members into trouble by being like they are.

They really need to grow up and start acting like adults instead of pathetic people they really are!!

And we all know who they are


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## Burmilla (16 October 2012)

gabriel68 said:



			Perhaps Burmilla there is an ulterior motive to some of the them on AL, the ones we like to call the *fluffies*!!!!!!

Think a certain few only go on to cause trouble and get other forum members into trouble by being like they are.

They really need to grow up and start acting like adults instead of pathetic people they really are!!

And we all know who they are

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Can 't say I agree with you there, gabriel68. Who are these people, because I don't know who they are, and I have been an involved participient ALiner for the last eight years.
Just my opinion, of course.


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## bobajob (16 October 2012)

A friend of mine bought a Stallion from the UK.It arrived in her yard about the same condition as the grey in the picture. She had been ripped off, let her heart rule her head kept it, has other problems that she was not told about. This horse came from a woman like this Skipper woman, did not give a dam about it but was all show, big house, friends in high places etc. Friend now looking for a home for it.


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## gabriel68 (17 October 2012)

Burmilla, the thread has now been locked on AL because a certain  poster still has the  nerve to try and defend this woman, this poster is very well known for causing trouble and her attempts at trying to ridicule people with her stupid little quotes doesnt do herself any favours whatsoever.

She has a couple of people that side with her on there but the rest know excactly what she is about.


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## fburton (17 October 2012)

The posters in that thread that strike me, as an outsider, to be most reasonable and constructive are Jackiedo, Pop and Callisto. None of them has supported the actions of the Skippers - indeed they have said so repeatedly and yet for some reason were misunderstood and vilified (as I expect to be for having the audacity to write this). Human nature is an odd thing.


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## gabriel68 (17 October 2012)

HAHAHA  POP!!  She is one of them that supported LS at the start  of it all, go back and read the the thread form the start and on about page 4 she is supporting her.

POP may have a few friends son Al but beleive me the way she acts on there she also has  a hell of a lot more who dislike her.

Funny how a handful of people seem to think she is talking sense when the majority of the forum thinks she talks from her backside.


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## bobajob (17 October 2012)

To me she is a typical over weight horse woman, the type to slag other people off about their horses and the way they ride but cannot look after her own horses. I HAD one of her books, but last night threw it on the fire. I never do that to books. She needs to take a good look in the mirror and cut back on all the pies.


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## Flame_ (17 October 2012)

gabriel68 said:



			Burmilla, the thread has now been locked on AL because a certain  poster still has the  nerve to try and defend this woman
		
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Do you not think its locked because it is a biased and over moderated forum? 

The whole thing has made me very cross and there are just too many people on that forum that are not even worth trying to reason with. There are people whose job it is to try to understand the minds of criminals, and in the cases of murder, animal cruelty, child abuse, rape, etc, etc I'm happy to leave the whys and the wherefores to people who give a monkeys.

Some things are just as simple as right or wrong and when people knowingly do wrong all they deserve is contempt.


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## gabriel68 (17 October 2012)

Flame_ said:



			Do you not think its locked because it is a biased and over moderated forum? 

The whole thing has made me very cross and there are just too many people on that forum that are not even worth trying to reason with. There are people whose job it is to try to understand the minds of criminals, and in the cases of murder, animal cruelty, child abuse, rape, etc, etc I'm happy to leave the whys and the wherefores to people who give a monkeys.

Some things are just as simple as right or wrong and when people knowingly do wrong all they deserve is contempt.
		
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Perhaps I worded that wrong.  We could all see where the thread was going because of a certain poster and yes they forum is over moderated by the Admin who I think takes great pleasure in locking and deleting threads.

Shame it used to be the best Arab forum about, now its just ridiculed by people and loads of influential people have now left.


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## hackedoff (17 October 2012)

was so sad to read about this on AL. I had tried to contact LS via various email mediums to see if she needed help when all this came out earlier in the year not realising that in fact the rspc had took action the previous year. 

What really upset me was that in her latest book on arabs I am sure there was a tribute to Navalis who she said she had lost , but in fact the poor horse had been pts by the rspca what hypocracy. I was so sad having followed the progress of her horses for years. 

I dont understand where the LS of the early books and the LS of the last two years parted company as they dont seem to be the same person. I do know of one breeder on AL who i wont name but is older I think than LS, has lots of breeding stock and both her and partner are not in the best of health like LS - but they would I think lay down their own lives than let their horses be neglected.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...pt-squalid-conditions-down.html#ixzz29SjKxQLJ

The other truely wierd thing is that in the distressing pictures in the daily mail the horses who were pts (Navalis and a mare) looked immaculatly clean although clearly not mucked out for at least 6 months juding by the mounds of bedding.


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## Shutterbug (17 October 2012)

bobajob said:



			To me she is a typical over weight horse woman, the type to slag other people off about their horses and the way they ride but cannot look after her own horses. I HAD one of her books, but last night threw it on the fire. I never do that to books. She needs to take a good look in the mirror and cut back on all the pies.
		
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Her weight has absolutely feck all to do with this - her ability to care for her animals is driven by her character and personality not by how much she weighs.  You just offended every single overweight individual on these forums by insinuating that they are incapable of caring for their horses - well done!


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## fburton (18 October 2012)

Flame_ said:



			The whole thing has made me very cross and there are just too many people on that forum that are not even worth trying to reason with. There are people whose job it is to try to understand the minds of criminals, and in the cases of murder, animal cruelty, child abuse, rape, etc, etc I'm happy to leave the whys and the wherefores to people who give a monkeys.
		
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Yes, but the discussion was clearly about more than that. It was also about how people who, for years, evidently care for their horses entirely adequately by normal standards and who are not ignorant, uncaring, or malicious - can then, somehow, get into such a mess that some of those horses end up being pts by the RSPCA on grounds of neglect.

Note that I am talking in general here, not the Skippers and the rights or wrongs of that case. It is about whether and how we, as horse owners, can prevent something like this happening again with other people and other horses.

What are the warning signs, and what can be done that stands some chance (even slim) of being helpful? Merely expressing outrage is the easy option and undoubtedly cathartic, but it doesn't help to solve the problem and stop it happening in the first place. _That's_ what the discussion was about that you and others seem intent on interpreting as support for the Skippers. Maybe you think the issue isn't worth bothering about, or believe that it's always going to be a foregone conclusion. That's your prerogative. However, those who _do_ think it's worth the effort don't deserve the sneering and jeering shown in that thread (and to some extent in this one too).


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## Burmilla (18 October 2012)

An extremely sensible post, fburton, imo. Thank you.


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## WelshD (19 October 2012)

bobajob said:



			To me she is a typical over weight horse woman, the type to slag other people off about their horses and the way they ride but cannot look after her own horses. I HAD one of her books, but last night threw it on the fire. I never do that to books. She needs to take a good look in the mirror and cut back on all the pies.
		
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Charming.

Though I accept your criticism of people who slag people off I cannot see how weight comes in to that equation at all! 

At 20+ stone I hold down a good full time job 60 miles away plus keep a smallholding of farm animals, two ponies and 200 chickens plus a house and various household pets I am up at 5am and dont stop till gone 10pm usually. The care my animals receive is paramount despite my size and fitness level.

I'm not planning to cut down on the pies any time soon though I am afraid 

Regarding LS I cannot believe she tried to persuade people on AL that she was being victimised and that one or two on there still support her despite the pics. reading back her old post about the stallion's death and his grave where she was planting snowdrops just goes to show how keen she was to hide from reality.


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## fburton (19 October 2012)

bobajob said:



			To me she is a typical over weight horse woman, the type to slag other people off about their horses and the way they ride but cannot look after her own horses.
		
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You're not saying that it's _only_ overweight horse people who slag off other people and/or are incapable of looking after their own horses. So what _are_ you saying?? Methinks your prejudice is showing.


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## fburton (19 October 2012)

bobajob said:



			I HAD one of her books, but last night threw it on the fire. I never do that to books.
		
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Did that make you feel better? I hope so - because it didn't achieve much else, did it?


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## fburton (19 October 2012)

cornbrodolly said:



			Met her once, and unfortunately my OH is in one of her books  working with and riding our horses [ she took copious photos that day - and warned us they were her copyright and could never use them].

Do not wish to be associated with her
		
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Presumably your OH (and you?) entered into this arrangement willingly, otherwise you would have declined the offer of a photo session, or would have said you preferred not to be involved in the project after all. You could have done that after LS told you the pictures were copyright (an entirely normal stipulation), but perhaps you found the prospect of appearing in a book appealing - many people would. There's no point in griping about it now though, is there?




			- disliked her as a 'know-it-all' at the time - she disparaged everyone.
		
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A not uncommon failing in horse people generally, in my experience.


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## fburton (19 October 2012)

hackedoff said:



			The other truely wierd thing is that in the distressing pictures in the daily mail the horses who were pts (Navalis and a mare) looked immaculatly clean although clearly not mucked out for at least 6 months juding by the mounds of bedding.
		
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Distressing indeed - at least, the one of the grey mare (body condition score 1 by the looks of it) and naturally the one of Nirvalis (any photo of a dead horse is distressing). I would say the bedding photo was shocking rather than distressing. However... that leads to some general questions about depth of bedding. I have only ever deep-littered once - I'm not even sure I did it correctly, except to say that it I made sure the top layer stayed dry and that there wasn't an ammonia smell.

What is generally considered the maximum depth a deep-littered bed can be before removal? Or, to put it another way, what is the maximum period of time over which deep-littering can be carried out?


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## WelshD (19 October 2012)

We deep littered a goat stable, it was about 6 months before we dug it out and it was about 5 inches deep and very compacted. Obviously a couple of goats produce less waste than a horse though! 

As another poster pointed out the horses owned by LS were very clean, I imagine this plus her fond writing of them may indicate that she liked the fun side of horse ownership, the fussing and grooming but was simply too lazy to deal with the realities of muck and vet care

Plenty of clean straw on top of the old stuff probably made her think she was making a great job of it


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## gabriel68 (19 October 2012)

All this trying to understand why LS has done this is acheiving nothing, if you want to try and udnerstand and help her then do so instead of ocming on horse forums having a go at people that were genuinely upset by what happened to these horses.

If she had asked for help help would have been there, simple.

Trying to put other posters down on here and AL is doing nothing at all, and as for the person who burned her booked, then if it made her feel better about the whole situation then why not, it didnt hurt anyone and to try and put her down on here is quite pathetic really.

At the end of the day the Skippers were guilty of neglect and abuse and no amount of trying to understand why they did it will bring the horses back.

The sentence passed that they can never own horses again speaks volumes and thank god for that, no more horses can suffer in their hands.


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## fburton (19 October 2012)

gabriel68 said:



			All this trying to understand why LS has done this is acheiving nothing
		
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With all due respect, not everyone agrees with you about that. If you don't like it, just ignore it.




			, if you want to try and udnerstand and help her then do so instead of ocming on horse forums having a go at people that were genuinely upset by what happened to these horses.
		
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I am genuinely upset by what happened, and feel a bit offended that anyone should think otherwise just because I choose not to join in the howls of execration (sorry, quoting the last line of a school text I was made to read).




			Trying to put other posters down on here and AL is doing nothing at all, and as for the person who burned her booked, then if it made her feel better about the whole situation then why not, it didnt hurt anyone and to try and put her down on here is quite pathetic really.
		
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Maybe that comment was uncalled for, I dunno - book burning just pushes a button for me.




			no amount of trying to understand why they did it will bring the horses back.
		
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No, but if it helps prevent something similar happening in the future to even one horse it is worth it in my opinion.


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## fburton (19 October 2012)

gabriel68 said:



			At the end of the day the Skippers were guilty of neglect and abuse
		
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What abuse? The word "abuse" suggests something other than, and beyond, neglect - that something cruel was deliberately done _to_ the horses, rather than something that they failed to do. I don't recall seeing that word used in any of the newspaper reports. Is there more we don't know about??


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## hackedoff (19 October 2012)

I know that on AL LS tried to say that it was all caused by an argument with a neighbour who then started trouble causing including calling the rspca, which is possible. In addition the problems were laminitics and poor dentation - all quite plausable if it wasnt for the photos of the 'deep litter' so some of the 'fluffy' AL posters were given fuel to sympathise with her.

I think the verdict was neglect, which is you think about it is a form of abuse. I dont want to get involved in the mud slinging between other posters, the thing that really worrys me and I do want to understand is how some one can change over a relativly short space of time. 

Some of LS's books show her horses at home in quite recent times , easily verified by Navalis having changed to white grey. The stables looked fine.

I do wonder if LS genuinly has a health issue given that she seems to have totally shut off what happened to Navalis and I think his dam from her mind. Of course I could be cyncial and believe she is trying to decieve everyone, but equally she may genuinely be ill and unable to recognise/face reality.

On the otherhand depression and post tramatic stress seem to be trundled out as an excuse for anything, which is equally sad given that genuine suffers are then treated as having less credibility than should be the case.


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## gabriel68 (19 October 2012)

Yes,Hackedoff, I agree with you, Abuse is some form of neglect!  If people can see that then there lies the problem.

Neglect or abuse is the same thing to me.  I dont thinkf or one minute they were whipping their horses but theywere causing pain to them by neglect, the same thing in my eyes.


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## d_morrow (19 October 2012)

Re the question on deep littering - it isn't a case of how long can you keep doing it. To manage a deep litter straw bed properly you are supposed to (once the bed is established) pull back the loose straw and remove thin slices from the top (with a shovel) on a regular  basis so that it doesn't become unmanageable. 
As for the debate on the use of the word 'abuse' - how about abuse of trust?  You only have to look at the eyes of that sweet little grey mare who was reduced to skin and bone. I will say no more.


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## Flame_ (19 October 2012)

I think leaving horses suffering with laminitis without any veterinary treatment, or even just arranging euthanasia, is pretty damn abusive.


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## Puppy (27 October 2012)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=11196058#post11196058


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## ribbons (27 October 2012)

Sorry, may i ask a random question that has nothing to do with this case but about posts and posting.
Did Lesley skipper post her defence message on HHO herself and if so, where. Or did puppy provide us with the link from a different forum. I only ask as I am surprised she felt she would gain any sympathy or support here.


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## Burmilla (27 October 2012)

Still unable to accept the truth, I see. Not doing herself any favours by putting her head over the parapet and spouting absolute denial. Nothing about missing her 'beloved' horses now, is there? No more beautiful stallion to dedicate her next book to, now the reality of his death is known, not the sad but dignified kindly end to his life that she portrayed in her last book. The golden geese have had to be put down by the RSPCA, the world has known, and she has been vilified by horse lovers for months on end. No more golden eggs to collect into the bank account.
Her horses were very close relatives of my old Arabian gelding who was gently and with great dignity, pts two years ago on 24/11/2010. He was glowing with health and attitude, in his best show rug, groomed to infinity, hooves shining and looking up to the North Downs, watching hounds working, and neighing with expectation, ears up, eyes shining.
He was pts because his arthritis was worsening and not going to be safely manageable in the forthcoming winter. He went very quietly, chewing a treat he did not finish .... I'd had him for years and adored him. He'd never earned me a penny, but he'd certainly cost a lot!

A great pity the Skippers couldn't be bothered to ask for help. It seems their selfishness, delusions and idleness got in the way of a dignified and timely end for their beautiful old horses.


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## gabriel68 (28 October 2012)

Well said Burmilla. 

Sorry about your gelding you sound like you loved him very much, something we has caring animal owners do is to see that their every need is catered for and at the end of their lives the kindest thing we can do is have them pass away peacefully like yours did, not upto their eyeballs in ***** like that poor stallion suffered.

No excuses I'm afraid for this, no matter how much she protests she inflicted pain and neglect on her horses who probably everyday waited in anticiation of her coming to feed , love and care for them.

The only saving grace from this sorry mess is that they can no longer own horses which is a god send.


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## FairyLights (28 October 2012)

http://www.arabianlines.com/forum1/topic_new.asp?TOPIC_ID=52365&whichpage=1

LS "Zareeba" tries to defend her actions................................unbelievable!


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