# So it seems my dog is 5.5 weeks pregnant after visiting the poodle parlour-what next?



## black_horse (12 August 2010)

Recently my dog has been acting very strangely.  She went for a clip just over 5 weeks ago when she was heavily in season, i did warn the groomers but they are not meant to have any points of contact with other dogs anyway so thought she would be ok.

Lately she has shown the following behaviours;
- She was very actively territorial of her resting space (she shares this with her sister) but in the last couple of days has become quite subdue.

- she has been pawing at the ground, nesting with her toys

- she has put on weight in the last week

- her mammery glands are enlarged and teh nipples are darker 

- the sister has been licking the dogs stomach and glands, she never used to do this

- the sister is giving the dog a wide birth at present as the dog is a tad hormonal.

- her appetite has increased, she is passing water more and is fretty about food more.

- she definetly seems rounder.

The vert thinks she is exhibiting pregnancy signs but cant ultrasound her till tomorrow to know for definet.


So, i am a dog owner but know nothing about welping or looking after such young puppies i need all the advice i can get.  She was ment to be spayed in a few weeks time 

I cannot believe this has happened, i have totally lost faith in my grooming parlour.

Please help!


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## soloabe (12 August 2010)

It may be hard to hear but i would get her to the vets for an emergency spay and abort.

Far to many dogs in the world already.


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## CorvusCorax (12 August 2010)

It may be a phantom, a few of my females have had them, but like Katie says, if it is for real and you're not confident about whelping and finding homes for pups - and no offence, but if this is the wee mite with HD and epilepsy, I would not, not, not be letting her procreate, wouldn't be fair on her or the pups - even if it is not her, and is her sister, she could still be a carrier or throw dysplasia if it is in their lines - I would be getting her the jag and if she is too far on, an emergency abort and spay.

Plus I would be having a serious word with your groomers!!!


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## flying solo (12 August 2010)

I would be contacting the groomers to ask what else they had in that morning..... God knows what kind of pups they would be! Not sure what you can do legal wise against the groomers, if you let her go full term and there is complications vet bills can cost 100's!


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## Vizslak (12 August 2010)

Ditto Katies advice...you might be lucky though, it could just be a phantom.
ets...and you should make sure the groomers foot the bill if she is pregnant!


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## soloabe (12 August 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			It may be a phantom, a few of my females have had them, but like Katie says, if it is for real and you're not confident about whelping and finding homes for pups - and no offence, but if this is the wee mite with HD and epilepsy, I would not, not, not be letting her procreate, wouldn't be fair on her or the pups - even if it is not her, and is her sister, she could still be a carrier or throw dysplasia if it is in their lines - I would be getting her the jag and if she is too far on, an emergency abort and spay.

Plus I would be having a serious word with your groomers!!!
		
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Please please if she does have those issues or is the sister of the dog that does please do not let this pregnancy go on.


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## EAST KENT (12 August 2010)

Probably a pseudo ,get her scanned..and if nothing in there get her onto Galastop for a few days..she`ll be back to normal in a few days DO NOT spay while in a pseudo ..the behaviour will linger on for months if you do.


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## MurphysMinder (12 August 2010)

I would be pretty disgusted if she had been mated at the groomers, its not as if they wouldn't have noticed.  It could well be a phantom,  hopefully the scan will make things clearer, but definitely speak to the groomers first.


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## black_horse (12 August 2010)

Im hoping for pseudo, how far into the pregnancy can you abort, the vet didnt even offer this as an option but it is one i want! yes she has epilipsey and HD and i would never breed from either dog (despite the fact teh sister seems fine, its the same genes at the end of the day)


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## CorvusCorax (12 August 2010)

Honestly I couldn't tell you the time limit, because I've never had to have it done.

I am hoping against hope that it is a phantom, but well done you for putting your dog and future generations of dogs first if the worst has happened.

Apart from the moral issues of breeding from epileptics and dysplastics (not that you ever would!) and the potential of puppy owners having to possibly deal with what can be heartbreaking conditions later down the road, from what you have said about her hips before, carrying the extra weight of puppies full term would put a huge strain on her and not be comfortable for her at all.


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## PucciNPoni (12 August 2010)

Okay, as several other folk have suggested it might be a phantom pregnancy.  I'm not a vet, and I'm not even a breeder.  I am however a groomer!

So first thing is obviously find out from the vet what the story is -- pregnant or not. 

Second thing, if the dog IS in fact pregnant....and you're absolutely positive it can only have happened at the salon, then I would certainly speak to the groomer in charge that day.  If they tell you that there are no points of contact, I'd be seriously surprised that an accident could have happened.  I know in my shop, strange dogs are never ever ever allowed to meet one another to even say hello, let alone have a little rendezvous.  Most groomers are the same with this (though there are exceptions).  The reason being - the dogs are kept pretty busy in the shop - they go from bath, to drying, to clipping, and then in a private cage alone (but where I can monitor them) til the owner comes to collect - and in most cases, that's only for about 20 or 30 min max.  I don't want fights, accidents, messes, or god forbid, accidental matings!    There are however, groomers that think it's much kinder to allow the dogs to run about loose in the salon all day as they think caging is cruel.  

Third thing, if the dog has been found to been mated in the shop - I would probably contact Pet Care Trust, if they are listed with them there might be something they can do to advise you.  But even if they're not listed, I reckon they'll be able to advise you anyway.  

I am really really curious to know what the outcome of your vet visit finds tomorrow...so please keep us informed. I hope it's not the case...but wow, seriously dodgy if it DID happen the way you suspect.


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## soloabe (12 August 2010)

It can be done very late so don't worry that you are over the limit.

I will admit that we had to do it with a foster dog back in the day and it was done pretty late in the pregnancy.


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## CAYLA (12 August 2010)

Im not sure what to say if this did happen at the parlour they would probably deny it too, and it would be very hard to prove it happened there.
Your vet or at leastmine will spay anytimme after the 4 week period, we (as a rescue) would and have spayed right up to as far as the day before whelp, if one vet won't go to the next, and very sensible of you to go down this route if she is, esp given what she has which is hereditary.
Hopefully it will be a phantom.


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## black_horse (12 August 2010)

i will defo post tomorrow what happens,she is booked in for a  scan and if pregnant will be aborted and spayed tomorrow, her sister will be spayed also asap.  Kicking myself for not having it done sooner,we were waiting for bother sisters cycles to  be similar to reduce the stress of the seperation for them both!

I can 100% say if she is pregnant,the parlour is the only place it could have happened!   the day they went in, there were two memebers of staff  on duty and over 20 dogs in, they have a communal area out back for piddle breaks, thats prob where it happened :S


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## soloabe (12 August 2010)

Thank you for being incredibly responsible about this!


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## black_horse (12 August 2010)

well its not fair on the puppies!!! if they have what poppy has, they would end up welfare/cruelty cases or recieve impropper treatment! I love poppy to bits but she is hard work and expensive and i wouldnt want another like her!


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## ChesnutsRoasting (12 August 2010)

Like PP, I would be astonished if she was mated at the groomers.  Are they a pro outfit or just a lady doing a bit of work at her home for some extra dosh?  Any decent groomer would not let the dogs interact & certainly wouldn't leave dogs alone together for a mating to occur.


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## littlemisslauren (12 August 2010)

Both groomers I have taken my old Border to in the past have just put him straight on the floor with their own dogs! 

I was gobsmacked she did it with him, I told her he was grumpy and dog agressive and she just left him to it! Must admit he was brialliantly behaved and she told me he only grumbled once. But had I taken a bitch that was in season I would have walked out.


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## Brontie (13 August 2010)

Any news Rach? Is she pregnant? What did the vet / groomers say?


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## black_horse (13 August 2010)

She's seeing vet at 9.30 this morning. Will let you all know asap.


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## black_horse (13 August 2010)

Good news -it is a phantom pregnancy. So releaved. Both her and her sister are going to be spayed asap once poppy stops showing symptoms


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## Vizslak (13 August 2010)

Yay!  Good news! Poor little thing though, phantoms are rotten  Hope she makes a quick recovery and is back to normal soon.


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## Spudlet (13 August 2010)

Black_Horse said:



			Good news -it is a phantom pregnancy. So releaved. Both her and her sister are going to be spayed asap once poppy stops showing symptoms
		
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Was following this last night - phew! Hope she feels better soon.


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## 3Beasties (13 August 2010)

Great news, what a relief that must be! 

I'm really surprised to hear that you can abort a pregnancy up until a bitch whelps, how does that happen? Are the puppies literally PTS as they are delivered? Not wanting to start anything but am genuinely interested, I thought there would be some sort of time limit with it.


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## PucciNPoni (13 August 2010)

littlemisslauren said:



			Both groomers I have taken my old Border to in the past have just put him straight on the floor with their own dogs! 

I was gobsmacked she did it with him, I told her he was grumpy and dog agressive and she just left him to it! Must admit he was brialliantly behaved and she told me he only grumbled once. But had I taken a bitch that was in season I would have walked out.
		
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Yes, I've heard of groomers doing this - but personally I find it far too risky and it's an absolute liability.  Would never do it...the closest I get to that is that I have a single place to tie a dog.  Some dogs refuse to settle in a crate, and in which case, I make him/her a bed near the wall where I can link them up by leash and they're happier with this.  But even then, I'm very careful to not lead any other dogs past them too closely.


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## MissMincePie&Brandy (13 August 2010)

Black_Horse said:



			Good news -it is a phantom pregnancy. So releaved. Both her and her sister are going to be spayed asap once poppy stops showing symptoms
		
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Yay!!!  Mine had a phantom pregnancy just after her first season, and she was only about 9 months old.  It was the oddest thing and she started nesting and was treating her toys like babies. She even started to produce milk.  We got her spayed after that!


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## Alexart (13 August 2010)

What a relief for you!!
3beasties - when they spey in the later stages of pregnancy, the bitch and therefore her pups are under anesthetic, when they spey they clamp off all the blood vessels and therefore the oxygen supply to the pups and then literally take out the entire uterus with the pups still asleep inside, they don't last long without an oxygen supply so basically never wake up.  
It is however far more risky for the bitch as the blood vessels are so much bigger than they would be normally so there is a risk she can bleed to death, but in some cases it is better than bringing a whole litter of pups into the world that are unwanted.


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## EAST KENT (13 August 2010)

Oh God,Alexart, what a terrible thing to do to any animal..just imagine a hysterectomy on a woman and killing the child at the same time..horrendous for every one. I can see the reasons ..but that is barbaric.


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## 3Beasties (13 August 2010)

Thanks Alexart, I agree with EK, it does sound a bit barbaric and it's not something I would ever consider doing (maybe I am an irresponsible dog owner   ) but I can understand why people would do it and I don't have a problem with that.  

Mustn't be very nice for anyone involved I wouldn't have thought!


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## CAYLA (13 August 2010)

Im so relieved for u both, I havebeenpresentatalot of caesareans,and are not barbaric I can promise you, lest not forget the puppies wouldnot live at all without thebitches assistance and stimualtion, therefor for inexperienced/young bitches or non intervention of human help, lots of puppies would die/fade out naturally and at this age they know nothing, not compared to adult dogs when they are pts at the ripe old age of 1, and fully aware of sorroundings, after removing everything some vets will use pts juice and some jsut let them fade, which takes seconds as like I said without immediate attention they fade anyway.

I personally would not liken it to a woman losing a baby, having had lots of bitches in that have been through a C section I can say I have never had any grieve or appear sad or confused, have never witnessed a bitch die with a C section either, have witnessed lots of deaths through whelping though.

Im glad u had a good outcome today though, the gromers get to live another day


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## CAYLA (13 August 2010)

3Beasties said:



			Thanks Alexart, I agree with EK, it does sound a bit barbaric and it's not something I would ever consider doing (maybe I am an irresponsible dog owner   ) but I can understand why people would do it and I don't have a problem with that.  

Mustn't be very nice for anyone involved I wouldn't have thought!
		
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3B, it's not particurlarly nice, but it is no where near as sole destroying as witnessing a 6 or 12 month old puppy or adult dog PTS because they no longer resemble that cute puppy and the owner refuses to hand over to rehome or a dog spinning in a kennel through sheer frustration after a year doing so, or a dog with severe medical lingering on in pain.

If my  life was to end in nay of the above I would rather I be gone before it even started and I was unaware.


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## EAST KENT (14 August 2010)

It is still barbaric ,and bitches DO die having caesers ..one of them was mine.


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## Llewellyn (14 August 2010)

EAST KENT
I am sorry to hear about your bitch but Cayla said she had never seen one die, I have never seen a badger doesn't mean they don't exist. I miss read it first too.


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## CAYLA (14 August 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			It is still barbaric ,and bitches DO die having caesers ..one of them was mine.
		
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I understood you deem it barbaric, and you have your opinion like everyone, I was not saying it's wrong for you to think that, just that I don't think it is, and of course there will be fatality with C sections, I jsut said "I have never seen one" of the possibly over 50 I have seen but I have seen a good few whelping bitches die whilst in whelp. 
My experiences however are going to be different to others.


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## CAYLA (14 August 2010)

Llewellyn said:



			EAST KENT
I am sorry to hear about your bitch but Cayla said she had never seen one die, I have never seen a badger doesn't mean they don't exist. I miss read it first too. 

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Yep this ^^^^^^^ I have never seen a badger either I thought they where mythical creatures


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## Spudlet (14 August 2010)

The real barbarity is in breeding animals of all kind with no thought of what will happen in their future.

That goes as much for horses, cats etc as dogs. Where do you think the Spindles Farm horses came from? The pregnant mares and young foals that were starving there? Irresponsible breeding, that's where. The dogs that places like Many Tears bring out of puppy farms with awful health conditions? Irresponsible breeding. 

Given the choice between an animal ending up in that kind of awful place and a quiet peaceful end before any of that starts, I'd go for the latter every time. It's sad and horrible, but it is still preferable to some of the things that can happen to these animals.


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## CAYLA (14 August 2010)

Well said ^^^ you have to be responsible enough to look past the "aww, you will bebale to get homes for puppies no probelm" and think to when they are older and no longer cute and what will happen to them (will they be bred from/or sed as a breeding machine), like so many dog before them (in the same position) you can try and find good responsible homes) but you will not always get them. simples.

Only yesterday I had my friend on the phone upset as she had to pts a 6 month old pedigree with horrific skin, cherry eye and aggression to boot, I bet that dog wished it had never been born, it was also onto it's 3rd home I bet the 1st owners got all the cuteness out the way before passing it on


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## PucciNPoni (14 August 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			It is still barbaric ,and bitches DO die having caesers ..one of them was mine.
		
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Of course any time a dog/horse/person etc are ever put under anaesthetic, there is a risk of death.  It's not without dangers, so it's not just the caesarian that's dangerous.  Modern medicine (human, veterinary) has come a long way over the past hundred years, or even ten years.  We can minimise the risk further by not having unwanted litters in the first place.


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## Serenity087 (14 August 2010)

You guys have never seen badgers?

I've seen two every night for the last week!  Got some naff photos... but they were definitely real!!


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## Llewellyn (14 August 2010)

Nope lived in the countryside my whole life and never seen a badger not even a dead one! except in wind of the willows. So yes definately mystical creature.


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## MurphysMinder (14 August 2010)

Can't believe some of you have never seen even a dead badger, there are always bodies on the roadside round here.  And as I posted on Wednesday night Evie nearly had a close encounter whilst out on a walk, saw it far too close for comfort.


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## Spudlet (14 August 2010)

I hit a badger last autumn on a busy A road. It made one hell of a bang and there was blood on the wheel the next morning - luckily I swerved enough for it to be a glancing blow or I think it would have caused a nasty accident (not very lucky for the badger though)


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## CAYLA (14 August 2010)

I never have and I live practically ontop of nature reserve I see deer everyday but no badgers


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## Spudlet (14 August 2010)

I have never seen so much wildlife as I do living round here (or hit so much of it in my car either!) so come to Norfolk


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## FestiveSpirit (14 August 2010)

Spudlet said:



			I hit a badger last autumn on a busy A road. It made one hell of a bang and there was blood on the wheel the next morning - luckily I swerved enough for it to be a glancing blow or I think it would have caused a nasty accident (not very lucky for the badger though) 

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Spudlet how COULD you   Badgers are huge, you cannot miss them (well, obviously you can or there wouldnt be so many dead ones on the roads...)

I have seen live badgers around us (including one running really fast across the paddock my horse was turned out in) they are amazing   And lots and lots of dead ones 

Glad it was a false alarm Black_Horse


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## MurphysMinder (14 August 2010)

Good to see you back CR, is this a fleeting visit or are you going to hang around?  Evie agrees with you that badgers can run very fast, though not as fast as your skinny dogs


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## Spudlet (14 August 2010)

It was dark and it was in the middle of the road, and there was oncoming traffic with their headlights on full mad so couldn't see it until it was too late

I swear, Norfolk wildlife all has a death wish, the kamikazi antics on the roads round here have to be seen to be believed!


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## Serenity087 (15 August 2010)

Blimey, well, I've seen enough badgers for all of you then!

Had a grumpy one chase me out of my own paddock one night... I've worked with a few at a Wildlife charity, seen some that were being kept in a government lab (ooh er!), and now I've been helping feed some wild ones (not that I'm a huge fan of that idea!).  not to mention the 101 dead ones I've passed, and a few live ones I've seen running up the road, their fat little bottoms swinging as they lollop!

Funny little things, but I wouldn't want to get too close.  They're NASTY!


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## EAST KENT (15 August 2010)

Badgers like peanuts ..and lemon curd sandwiches..honest! As for wildlife..how many of you have seen one of the big black cats we have in this country??


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## Ranyhyn (15 August 2010)

I've seen a live and a dead badger


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## numptynoelle (15 August 2010)

Kitsune said:



			I've seen a live and a dead badger 

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Me too  Unfortunately _just_ before and _just_ after I hit it with the car

  

I have come across a wallaby before...it was an escapee from the Blair Drummond Safari Park


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## Ranyhyn (15 August 2010)

killer!!!!  

They are beautiful bumbling creatures, I love them


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## FestiveSpirit (15 August 2010)

MurphysMinder said:



			Good to see you back CR, is this a fleeting visit or are you going to hang around?  Evie agrees with you that badgers can run very fast, though not as fast as your skinny dogs 

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Thanks MM   Seem to have come back - as I said to Cayla last night I miss the lovely AAD people - lets face it, we all knew it wouldnt last


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