# Puppies advertised for sale as pets with docked tails?



## FionaM12 (19 September 2013)

On a local website, there are Patterdale terrier pups advertised for sale. It says they have docked tails.  It says "will make super family pets".

Am I right this is illegal? Is it a good idea to report it, and if so, who to?


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## twiggy2 (19 September 2013)

if the person who owns the pups has a gun license then yes it is legal, also depends where the pups were when docked.


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## CorvusCorax (19 September 2013)

It's not illegal for working dogs and a Patterdale could be considered a working breed, those who don't make workers could no doubt make super family pets.
They can't be registered by or shown under KC rules anyway.

I personally wouldn't report it, but that's just me!


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## FionaM12 (19 September 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			if the person who owns the pups has a gun license then yes it is legal, also depends where the pups were when docked.
		
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Really? To sell to the pet market?


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## twiggy2 (19 September 2013)

yes when they are docked most wont have homes lined up


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## CorvusCorax (19 September 2013)

You'll not know when the pups are very very young (IE docking age), which pups will make workers and which ones won't.


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## FionaM12 (19 September 2013)

I worked with show dogs for a while when I was young. In those days breeders docked puppies themselves, with elastic bands. I hated it, and saw some horrors where the banding went wrong . I hated it.

I've not been around dog breeding since the law changed, but thought docking had stopped except for genuine working dogs.


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## FionaM12 (19 September 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			It's not illegal for working dogs and a Patterdale could be considered a working breed, those who don't make workers could no doubt make super family pets.
They can't be registered by or shown under KC rules anyway.

I personally wouldn't report it, but that's just me!
		
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What work do patterdales do?


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## CorvusCorax (19 September 2013)

The clue is in the name terrier 
Hunting/vermin control etc.


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## Copperpot (19 September 2013)

I have just bought a working Lakeland with a docked tail. You don't need a gun license yourself. A letter from a game keeper will suffice, saying you use your dogs to work and therefore they can be legally docked. I have to take his certificate to the vets etc as they sometimes ask to see it.


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## FionaM12 (19 September 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			The clue is in the name terrier 
Hunting/vermin control etc.
		
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How would a tail affect killing killing vermin? And isn't it illegal to send them underground to hunt now?


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## Copperpot (19 September 2013)

No you can use a soft "baying" terrier legally below ground to flush a fox to a gun. Also it does affect them. I have 2 docked terriers and one undocked. When he goes bushing for rabbits etc his tail gets shredded and bleeds. The others don't get this.


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## CorvusCorax (19 September 2013)

They can still flush to a gun or kill rats or rabbits or whatever as lone dogs (not in a pack). You'll have to ask a terrier person but as I understand they are docked to a length where a human hand can grab it.

I might be going off topic but I like to see dogs doing the jobs they were originally designed to do, within reason.
Most of them were bred for a certain purpose and their suitability as pets is a pleasant bonus.
I think it would be a sad day when all dogs are fit to do is lie on a sofa or go for a dander around the block.


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## Copperpot (19 September 2013)

Yes they are not docked as short as a Doberman for instance. Mine has enough left that you could easily grab it if you needed to.


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## justabob (19 September 2013)

Copperpot said:



			No you can use a soft "baying" terrier legally below ground to flush a fox to a gun. Also it does affect them. I have 2 docked terriers and one undocked. When he goes bushing for rabbits etc his tail gets shredded and bleeds. The others don't get this.
		
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A soft baying terrier as you said is a Jack Russel, a Patterdale and Lakeland Terrier are dogs to kill foxes in the crags on top of the ground in the Lake District craggs.


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## Copperpot (19 September 2013)

Yes I am aware of that. I have 2 jack russels and one Lakeland.


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## justabob (19 September 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			How would a tail affect killing killing vermin? And isn't it illegal to send them underground to hunt now?
		
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Yes it is illegal to enter a dog now.


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## Copperpot (19 September 2013)

Not with permission is isn't. A dog can go below ground to flush a fox to a gun for the purpose of protecting game birds.


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## Copperpot (19 September 2013)

http://m.terrierwork.com/site/mobil...sig_permission_level=0&fb_sig_network=fw#3311


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## justabob (19 September 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			They can still flush to a gun or kill rats or rabbits or whatever as lone dogs (not in a pack). You'll have to ask a terrier person but as I understand they are docked to a length where a human hand can grab it.

I might be going off topic but I like to see dogs doing the jobs they were originally designed to do, within reason.
Most of them were bred for a certain purpose and their suitability as pets is a pleasant bonus.
I think it would be a sad day when all dogs are fit to do is lie on a sofa or go for a dander around the block.
		
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I completely agree with you, but unfortunately the previous government has passed a law to make it illegal for terriers to do the job that they were bred to do. All we can hope for is that owners of these highly intellegent dogs find a usefull and active enough life for them. Not many terriers really did the job they were bred for anyway.


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## ribbons (19 September 2013)

Hmmm, I didn't think docking itself was illegal. As I understand the law on the subject, it is illegal for anyone other than a vet to perform the docking and they very rarely will, but if you find a vet prepared to do it, it is not illegal. Whereas in years gone by, the breeder often did the docking, that is now illegal.
You can't however show a docked dog anymore. 

I'm fairly sure this is the case, but I may be wrong. I will try and research the facts.


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## justabob (19 September 2013)

Copperpot said:



http://m.terrierwork.com/site/mobil...sig_permission_level=0&fb_sig_network=fw#3311

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With written permission. So not your everyday chap then.


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## FionaM12 (19 September 2013)

ribbons said:



			Hmmm, I didn't think docking itself was illegal. As I understand the law on the subject, it is illegal for anyone other than a vet to perform the docking and they very rarely will, but if you find a vet prepared to do it, it is not illegal. Whereas in years gone by, the breeder often did the docking, that is now illegal.
You can't however show a docked dog anymore. 

I'm fairly sure this is the case, but I may be wrong. I will try and research the facts.
		
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A vet friend of mine once told me she was only legally allowed to dock working dogs. In fact she heard of another vet who would oblige clients by docking non-working dogs, and she reported them! :eek3:


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## Copperpot (19 September 2013)

Well of course you would have permission from the land owner. Or if it's your own land, no worries on that front.

I never insinuated it was your every day chap, just that it isn't illegal to do, if it it done following those guidelines.


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## CorvusCorax (19 September 2013)

In the case of a breed like a Patterdale or a Springer Spaniel for example, it's hard to forecast the working capability of every single dog in a litter that's a few days old, even if the genetics are good.

Obvs with other breeds where it has been cosmetic in recent years, that's different.


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## FionaM12 (19 September 2013)

Thanks for all the replies guys. 

I've always been a bit hazy about the docking laws. I'd have asked the vet "friend" mentioned above, but after she scarpered with my husband some years ago the friendship sort of disintegrated...

But that's another story.


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## Copperpot (19 September 2013)

Fiona I think you should have docked the pair of them :0


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## justabob (19 September 2013)

Copperpot said:



			Well of course you would have permission from the land owner. Or if it's your own land, no worries on that front.

I never insinuated it was your every day chap, just that it isn't illegal to do, if it it done following those guidelines.
		
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I think you need to go and read your post again before you make another comment. *soft terriers only can be entered* Patterdales are not soft.


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## justabob (19 September 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			Thanks for all the replies guys. 

I've always been a bit hazy about the docking laws. I'd have asked the vet "friend" mentioned above, but after she scarpered with my husband some years ago the friendship sort of disintegrated...

But that's another story. 

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I am finding that rather funny!!!!  Your sense of humour has not scarpered anyway.


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## Copperpot (19 September 2013)

Some actually can be. I have known one. I was talking about working terriers in general not specifically patts. Also not all jack russells are bayers. The comment was made that it is illegal to send a terrier below ground. I replied to that. Shesh.


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## justabob (19 September 2013)

Copperpot said:



			Some actually can be. I have known one. I was talking about working terriers in general not specifically patts. Also not all jack russells are bayers. The comment was made that it is illegal to send a terrier below ground. I replied to that. Shesh.
		
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I agree, some JRT's are crossed with a bit of Staffie....that is a whole different kettle of fish. Goodnight Copperpot and I hope we have not fallen out. xx


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## Copperpot (20 September 2013)

Or a bit of Lakeland lol. No of course not Justabob. Good night  xx


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## FionaM12 (20 September 2013)

Copperpot said:



			Fiona I think you should have docked the pair of them :0
		
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justabob said:



			I am finding that rather funny!!!!  Your sense of humour has not scarpered anyway.
		
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Well I'm glad my traumatic personal life gives you both so much mirth.




Goodnight both.


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## Patterdale (20 September 2013)

My litter of Patterdale puppies are now 11 days old and they are not, and will not be docked. The chances of them being working dogs are slim and I just cannot bring myself to mutilate the little babies for fashion. 
Having said that, one of the little darlings had a traumatic birth, got stuck fast and her tail got broken and the end came off on the way out, so there is one pup unintentionally docked.

I agree with cavecanem that I like to see dogs doing the job they were originally bred for, but lots of people want terriers just as pets. I've bred this litter with that specific idea in mind. Both parents are very calm and well behaved pet dogs, who dont chase sheep or cats etc, and I hope the pups will be the same. 

I always think it a great shame for all concerned when people have a terrier that they absolutely can't manage, and is a menace to society, and then tell you proudly of his working pedigree, when they live in a built up area and the dog gets left while they go to work. Which is not a bad lifestyle for some dogs - but not working dogs.


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## Dry Rot (20 September 2013)

I think it is probably against the vets' code of practice to carry out operations for purely cosmetic purposes anyway.

Fell/Lakeland terriers are funny little things and if the initial training (I nearly put my foot in it and said entering!) is mismanaged they can get strange ideas. One of mine would kill cubs but ignore adults, another was the opposite.

But that was back in the days before Britain became a socialist state and country matters were left to country people.


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## Festivepony (20 September 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			But that was back in the days before Britain became a socialist state
		
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*snorts with derision and backs out of thread shaking head in disbelief.*


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## FionaM12 (20 September 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			The clue is in the name terrier 

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Has anyone ever told you you can be a little patronising and sarcastic sometimes?


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## PorkChop (20 September 2013)

There is a Patterdale that beats on one of the shoots that I go to, he is a little Bu@@er though!

I am planning a litter of Springers next year.  One of my Vets is happy to dock, he did want to see my gun license and preferably a list of interested possible owners.  My intention is to breed for working dogs though.


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## Cinnamontoast (20 September 2013)

Not mine, fortunately, but next time I get a springer, I'll be looking for a docked litter. My youngsters aren't docked, although big dog is, his tail never gets injured, theirs bleed lots :frown3:


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## SusieT (20 September 2013)

To report - RSPCA would be my bet, it's up to you if you want to. Personally I think it's an example of where the law should be made to work - pet dogs are not meant to be docked regardless of any arguements of if working dogs should be docked or not..


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## Cinnamontoast (21 September 2013)

But if someone has a litter from a working pair, hoping they'll all go to working homes, should they leave a few undocked just in case? I'd rather do the lot having seen my two with full tails get in bother wrapped in thorny bushes and with split tails.


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## Copperpot (21 September 2013)

This ^^^

If you are breeding from working parents and generations of working dogs before that and can have them legally docked I would. Who knows if they will all make workers. If they sell to a pet home and they've got a docked tail, does it matter. Fell terriers, patterdales and "proper" jack russell's are not recognised by the kennel club anyway so can only enter working terrier type shows even as a pet for which they would do better with docked tails. 

Not having a tail as a pet doesn't affect them, whereas having a tail if they do go to a working home will.


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## SusieT (21 September 2013)

we will have to disagree on the affecting them if they have a tail and are working - it's banned for a reason and there are rules to follow. Nevermind the fact that they shouldn't have been bred without a list of potential owners anyway.


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## s4sugar (21 September 2013)

It is banned because the RSPCA wanted to feel fuzzy - no other reason. If it was legal to dock them at 3/4 days of age then they are legally docked. My next dog will be docked and so won't be able to be shown at a handful of shows where the public pay admission but can be shown if admission is free - how does that law affect welfare?.

I have had a dozen people on a litter list and ended up with two puppies "spare" on a litter of five. 
Patteredales as pets fills me with dread as if they are true to their breeding they usually make awful pets.


BTW New Zealand has rescinded their ban.


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## Patterdale (21 September 2013)

s4sugar said:



			Patteredales as pets fills me with dread as if they are true to their breeding they usually make awful pets.
		
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Lol. 
I take it you've owned Patterdales before, and have lots of experience with the breed then, to be making wild claims like this? Or is it just the usual uninformed terrier prejudice?

All the Patterdales I've owned have been excellent pets. That's why I like the breed so much. 
I've only seen problems when people buy from a litter from generations ofworkingdogs, for a pet home. But then, that is true of any working breed. 
Patterdales bred from the non-working, calmer pet types are a joy to own. Mine is just as happy following me on a 10 mile hack, or sitting by the fire all day only getting up to go to the loo and eat. She's never chased anything and never snapped at anyone. And she's by no means the exception. 

If you don't like them then fair enough but it's not really fair to go bad mouthing them when with all due respect if you don't keep them then you can't really know.


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## s4sugar (21 September 2013)

I've owned a jacks, aPRT, Kerrys, Glen of Imaals a Westie & a Border & run a boarding kennels and help breed rescues. 
As you say working bred patterdales, which is what they should be, are hellish pets. 
I never see any bred as pets around here and I would never recommend any bred "purely as a pet" puppy to any puppy buyer. I had a pair here yesterday - they were disapointed that they couldn't find any rats as that is their mission in life. Why breed from dogs that are not true to their type which " Non -working, calmer types" would be. A bit like breeding from a slow greyhound or a non retrieving Lab.


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## Dry Rot (21 September 2013)

A fair range of opinions here! I wonder how much is based on practical personal experience?

I bred Border Lakeland/Fell terriers for years and had as a close friend one of the top working terrier men in Scotland. Back then it was legal to work badgers and foxes. As Copperpot has said, these dogs were bred to kill foxes above or below ground because you can't dig earths/dens in solid rock. Fox hunting with terriers in Scotland/north of England was vermin control, pure and simple,  Foxes were killed at any season of the year and by any means. Not saying I approved but it is a fact. Fox hunting with hounds down south is a completely different scenario.

I had two little old ladies turn up to buy a Fell terrier pup. I advised them against buying one and asked them if they had a family cat. They had but said they had had the breed before and the cat would be fine. So I sold them a pup.

A couple of years later they called in to say the pup had turned out to be a delightful family pet (which they are!) and the cat was still alive and well!

I love these breeds and never made a distinction between the various types so long as they worked. They are "hail well met" characters and meet the world on equal terms. But once bitten by a fox, every fox has to die! I have also seen these terriers with horrific injuries because they have met a badger and simply won't give up....which is why all responsible terrier men avoided badger sets like the plague. I bought an old bitch from Cumbria to breed from. She would kill cubs but not adults. Her daughter would kill adults but not cubs! The old bitch would dig for ever if she smelt a rat. I have never seen such persistence in any dogs, before or since. I would say these breeds get fixed ideas which is why careful entering was so important.

So I think the words "always" and "never" cannot be applied to these dogs, nor many other breeds come to that. As for docking tails, tens of thousands of lambs are docked every year in the UK without anaesthetic. I don't see what all the fuss is about. At that age, the pup's sensibilities have not fully developed anyway and apart from a short yip, they make no response. They make more noise when their mother lies on them! But of course someone always knows better than those who have lived with it.


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## Patterdale (21 September 2013)

s4sugar said:



			Why breed from dogs that are not true to their type which " Non -working, calmer types" would be. A bit like breeding from a slow greyhound or a non retrieving Lab.
		
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Because the vast majority of people who keep a dog in the UK keep them as pets. THOUSANDS of non-working labs are bred each year, because of their popularity as pets. I don't want a working dog for a pet, and neither do lots of other people. 
As every breed was originally bred for a job but most now do not work, I really don't think it's a crime for me to breed pet dogs. 

I'm a country person through and through, we have 5 working dogs (sheepdogs) on the farm, so I fully appreciate the argument about not 'diluting' working breeds. 
But I think that too many people are too single minded about the issue. People are going to keep dogs as pets - so why not breed from calmer animals that don't chase, if you intend the puppies to go and be pets?

Being a good companion is a job too!

My Patterdales are small, long legged, mainly short haired, and calm. I always say my bitch would be the ideal dog for an OAP, as all she wants is to be warm and loved. Even though she is loose on the farm all day and night, you can usually find her 20 hours a day curled up somewhere snug, and the remaining 4 waiting by the feeding shed.


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## FinnishLapphund (21 September 2013)

cinnamontoast said:



			Not mine, fortunately, but next time I get a springer, I'll be looking for a docked litter. My youngsters aren't docked, although big dog is, his tail never gets injured, theirs bleed lots :frown3:





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That is not a nice picture, and I can understand if you want your next dog of the same breed to be a docked one Cinnamontoast, if/since your undocked dogs tails is causing problems. I've seen worse photos of injured undocked tails before on HHO, I think that it was Kirstyhen that posted some even less nice photos of Otto and his troublesome undocked tail, but even though I feel sorry for the individual dogs that are suffering with tail problems, I still believe that it should be possible for breeders of working Springer Spaniels, Patterdale Terriers, Lakeland Terriers etc., to breed dogs that are _truly_ suitable for their intended job, without being docked. 
However, as long as breeders are allowed to continue to dock potential working dog puppies, they have no reason to change their breeding goals, and as long as they're not aiming to breed undocked working dogs, with tails that are less likely to become injured while working, nothing will change. 

Surely, when for example the Norwegians have managed to develop a dog breed like the Norwegian Lundehund, that to me seems truly suitable for their old work as hunters of Puffin birds and their eggs (I don't think that they're allowed to hunt Puffin birds any more?), it should be possible for e.g. Springer Spaniel breeders to breed a dog that doesn't normally tear up their undocked tails while they're working.

To be able to climb while hunting for the Puffin birds and their eggs, and get in and out of the narrow passages where the Puffin bird hides their eggs, this is the characteristics developed in the Norwegian Lundehund (photos found through Google image search): 
They usually have six functional toes on each paw (occasionally some of them have either more or less toes)  













They can almost completely shut their usually pricked ears, by folding them backwards













They're also extremely agile, and can bend their head backwards along their own spine 



















And turn their forelegs to the side at a 90-degree horizontal angle to their body 














Maybe it means that Springer Spaniels needs to be bred to have e.g. a tail set fairly low, a shorter tail, a sabre tail or perhaps even a corkscrew tail. But if breeders during x hundred of years hadn't been able to solve the problem by docking their dogs, maybe today's working Springer Spaniels would already have a different tail/tail setting, which didn't require docking? 
In the videos and TV clips that I can recall seeing of Springer Spaniels working, they've often had tails wagging like propellers, maybe breeders need to breed for dogs that keeps their tail more still while they're working?


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## Copperpot (21 September 2013)

Tbh I can't see why that can't be workers and pets. Our terriers like a cuddle and a sit on our laps and this doesn't detract from their working abilities. 

One of our previous terriers was a patterdale and although extremely strong willed and stubborn, he was never snappy etc. He knew the time to do his thing and the time to behave. 

However if ours weren't allowed to do the jobs which they had been bred for, perhaps they wouldn't be so aminable in every day life. 

Dry Rot I agree with everything you have posted.


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## FinnishLapphund (21 September 2013)

I've been out walking with my own dogs, and on the walk I suddenly realised that Springer Spaniels perhaps already have sabre tails :redface3: :confused3: , but as mentioned, I've mainly noticed their tails when they've been wagging like propellers, so I haven't really thought about what their breed standard says about their tails. And either way, I presume that if they usually carried their tails like a low set sabre tail while working their way through e.g. bramble bushes, their tails wouldn't be more at risk of being injured, than what their ears and the rest of their bodies are.


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## Cinnamontoast (21 September 2013)

They are like propellers! They go round, not side to side. I remember Kirstyhen's pics, where is the girl?!


It would be amazing if we could breed springers with low set tails but even then, the tail goes up when they scent and go off. Maybe we should outcross with a corgi!!


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## Clodagh (21 September 2013)

I can't see that the patterdale as a breed has existed long enough to be pet or working? The fashion for pet patterdales is very new and I think they will retain working instincts. These have pretty well been bred out of the border and a lot of JRTs.
My OH was hunt terrierman for 20 years, he was given endless terriers that had been pets but were too wild/headstrong/driven to be pet dogs. Do you know, they were almost ALL black, so patterdales or crosses. They nearly all went on to be excellent working dogs and weren't too hard to work well. Patterdales are lovely dogs, I really like them, and I would never, ever have or recommend one as a pet. That is a generalisation, I have only known 15 or so, there are thousands more out there I know nothing about.


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## Dry Rot (21 September 2013)

With a bit of determination and dedication, it ought to be possible to breed self-docked dogs. The livestock breeders have done it with hornless cattle and did I read somewhere there are tailess pigs?.Thn. of course, there are Manx cats....

There is actually a genetic "fault" in dogs. In a mild form, it appears as a kinked tail. The more extreme fault is a tail reduced in length, presumably because it is pinched and the end does not develop normally. I've had the fault in some of the dogs I've bred. A very mild kink can be massaged out.

Just another useless piece of information!

Can the working instincts be bred out of terriers? I would say they could be suppressed by lack of opportunity but terriers must be amongst our oldest breeds. As a farm student, I used sneak the farmer's wife's miniature poodle out of the house for a bit of ratting. A ten gallon churn of water poured down a hole would get the rats to bolt and the poodle would delay the rat long enough for me to bash it with a shovel!  The farmer's wife never did work out how the dog got out of the house and why it always returned exhausted and covered in pig poo!


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## EAST KENT (22 September 2013)

s4sugar said:



			I've owned a jacks, aPRT, Kerrys, Glen of Imaals a Westie & a Border & run a boarding kennels and help breed rescues. 
As you say working bred patterdales, which is what they should be, are hellish pets. 
I never see any bred as pets around here and I would never recommend any bred "purely as a pet" puppy to any puppy buyer. I had a pair here yesterday - they were disapointed that they couldn't find any rats as that is their mission in life. Why breed from dogs that are not true to their type which " Non -working, calmer types" would be. A bit like breeding from a slow greyhound or a non retrieving Lab.
		
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   Oh I don`t know,I find my working Lakies mad but huge fun;a decent working dock leaves six or seven inches on the tail,enough for a man`s hand to grasp it to pull it out of an earth.Pity the day dogs can longer be anything but lounge lizards,a case of mind your own business her
e I think


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## Dry Rot (22 September 2013)

Terriers (in fact, most dogs) have the instinct to hunt but it is not always awakened. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist!

I went down to feed the sheep for the first time one winter and turned the troughs up to find a few mice underneath. I quickly put the troughs back and went back to the house to collect three or four three month old Fell terrier pups. I thought the mice would be just the thing to get the pups going.

Brought the pups down and turned over the troughs. Mice everywhere! But the pups were terrified! Yet, a year later, every one turned out to be a brilliant fox hunter. All it took was the right experienced to turn the switch.

On the same theme, I never had any problems with my dogs chasing sheep as I assumed they would all do it on first encounter and was ready for it. The moment they showed any interest in sheep, they were put through a course of "desensitisation" and from then on hated the sight of them! A lot easier than trying to cure them of sheep chasing after the problem had arisen. Pretty much the same for recall. I don't let the problem get started in the first place. A huntsman who could not call his hounds would look pretty silly, and he will be managing 15 - 20 couples rather than just one pet.


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## RunToEarth (24 September 2013)

I had to sign a disclaimer at the vets when I had our litter of springer pups docked, to confirm they would be going to working homes. I also left one long as some friends wanted a pup as a pet. 

I am pro docking for working dogs and all of our terriers and spaniels are docked - I have seen some nasty accidents on the moors with long tails, including one poor lab last year. I don't agree with it as a fashion thing and I'm not sure you should be selling Patterdales advertised as pets with docked tails.


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