# Daily use of Danilon/Bute etc



## Rachelk (23 September 2010)

Hi guys,

What are your views/opinions of keeping your horse on 1 sachet of the above daily? Do you think it does much harm?

Really be intrested to hear your views

Thanks


----------



## Amymay (23 September 2010)

I would have no problem with this at all.  My preference would be Danilon, however.


----------



## Rueysmum (23 September 2010)

If it's either that or be uncomfortable/lame then the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

One of mine has been on Danilon for the past 5 years and he's still a happily retired pet!


----------



## Luciejjkk (23 September 2010)

Rueysmum said:



			If it's either that or be uncomfortable/lame then the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
		
Click to expand...

I completely agree with this.

My horse is on 1 bute (danillion) a day and has been for the past year.  He is 100% happier and more comfortable on it.  The positives outway the negatives for me.  Yes, it can lead to internal problems but to be honest, he may have a short life anyway so I'd rather he have a pain-free one.


----------



## ImogenBurrows (23 September 2010)

Rachelk said:



			Hi guys,

What are your views/opinions of keeping your horse on 1 sachet of the above daily? Do you think it does much harm?

Really be intrested to hear your views

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Depends on the size of your horse!!   Seriously if the horse is 500kg ish then the full dose of 1 sachet twice daily is ok and of minimal long term risk.  the most common side effects are right dorsal colitis (ulcers and inflammation in the large intestine) and an effect on kidney function.  The kidney thing is only really an issue in young, sick and/or dehydrated horses...they are both rare for the number for horses on these drugs. 




Luciejjkk said:



			My horse is on 1 bute (danillion) a day and has been for the past year.  He is 100% happier and more comfortable on it.  The positives outway the negatives for me.  Yes, it can lead to internal problems but to be honest, he may have a short life anyway so I'd rather he have a pain-free one.
		
Click to expand...

+1.  I totally agree!!! 



amymay said:



			I would have no problem with this at all.  My preference would be Danilon, however.
		
Click to expand...

Not to be provocative, but why? 

A lot of my clients would agree as the initial marketing of Danilon lead us to believe that it was safer for the stomach.  

There is actually no evidence or trials to prove this claim and Janseen have retracted it.  NSAIDs very rarely cause stomach ulceration anyway, and usually cause colon problems if anywhere.  Unfortunately, owners are not informed of the updated information and so Danilon continues to be bought due to this myth!  Don't get me wrong, it's a great drug and I use it a lot if horses don't like the taste of bute....it is sugar coated after all! But don't be mislead that it is safer or better for your horse. It's the same!!!

Imogen


----------



## Sarah Sum1 (23 September 2010)

Bit of a numpty question, but does the horse not build up a tolerance (or whatever correct phrasing is) to the pain killer if it is on it for years? Surely the dose would have to be upped for it to have same effect as day one? Or not


----------



## ImogenBurrows (23 September 2010)

sarah sum1 said:



			Bit of a numpty question, but does the horse not build up a tolerance (or whatever correct phrasing is) to the pain killer if it is on it for years? Surely the dose would have to be upped for it to have same effect as day one? Or not 

Click to expand...

This seems to be uncommon in the horse. I do advise people to use the pain killers at the lowest dose possible to create room for increase, but I have also combated this problem but switching product. e.g. bute to metacam.


----------



## ImogenBurrows (23 September 2010)

sarah sum1 said:



			Bit of a numpty question, but does the horse not build up a tolerance (or whatever correct phrasing is) to the pain killer if it is on it for years? Surely the dose would have to be upped for it to have same effect as day one? Or not 

Click to expand...

This seems to be uncommon in the horse. I do advise people to use the pain killers at the lowest dose possible to create room for increase, but I have also combated this problem but switching product. e.g. bute to metacam.


----------



## Ditchjumper2 (23 September 2010)

My chap on 2 sachets a day and happily hunting. I have no problem with this at all.


----------



## touchstone (23 September 2010)

If it keeps a horse comfortable then I've no problem with it either, after all we take painkillers for long term conditions ourselves which also have side effects.

My friends horse started bute at the age of 17 for athritis, he has had bute regularly since and is now 28 and is fit as a lop (apart from his arthritis!)

There would probably be plenty of horses being pts if they couldn't have regular bute, so extra comfortable years are preferable I think.


----------



## Sarah Sum1 (23 September 2010)

ImogenBurrows said:



			This seems to be uncommon in the horse. I do advise people to use the pain killers at the lowest dose possible to create room for increase, but I have also combated this problem but switching product. e.g. bute to metacam.
		
Click to expand...

Ah I see, thanks for explaining


----------



## ImogenBurrows (23 September 2010)

!!


----------



## mytwofriends (23 September 2010)

ImogenBurrows said:



			Depends on the size of your horse!!   Seriously if the horse is 500kg ish then the full dose of 1 sachet twice daily is ok and of minimal long term risk.  the most common side effects are right dorsal colitis (ulcers and inflammation in the large intestine) and an effect on kidney function.  The kidney thing is only really an issue in young, sick and/or dehydrated horses...they are both rare for the number for horses on these drugs. 




+1.  I totally agree!!! 



Not to be provocative, but why? 

A lot of my clients would agree as the initial marketing of Danilon lead us to believe that it was safer for the stomach.  

There is actually no evidence or trials to prove this claim and Janseen have retracted it.  NSAIDs very rarely cause stomach ulceration anyway, and usually cause colon problems if anywhere.  Unfortunately, owners are not informed of the updated information and so Danilon continues to be bought due to this myth!  Don't get me wrong, it's a great drug and I use it a lot if horses don't like the taste of bute....it is sugar coated after all! But don't be mislead that it is safer or better for your horse. It's the same!!!

Imogen
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for clearing that up.  My horse has just been diagnosed with bone spavin and my vet mentioned he might end up needing bute/danilon for maintenance after his hock injections.  I was under the impression danilon was by far safer for the stomach.  I was also concerned about long term use of either product, but it seems I needn't worry unduly.  He's a big boy of 560kgs or so.


----------



## doris2008 (24 September 2010)

It's really nice to hear a vet view on this Imogen! 
My boy was prescribed bute for life  a couple of years ago due to long term problems with his front feet. He is only 12 now and I wasn't happy to keep him on it for the rest of his life for the reasons people have described. He was only on one sachet a day and he's around 550kg I should think.
I actually took him off it last year when I took his shoes off and out of work he's been sound. Shoes are back on and he will go back into light hacking on soft ground over winter. He's currently sound but I aware this probably wont last forever. While he is generally field sound its nice to know if the time comes that he does need it daily again, that I wont be imposing too much of a risk on his internals at that dosage.


----------



## peanut (24 September 2010)

mytwofriends said:



			Thanks for clearing that up.  My horse has just been diagnosed with bone spavin and my vet mentioned he might end up needing bute/danilon for maintenance after his hock injections.  I was under the impression danilon was by far safer for the stomach.  I was also concerned about long term use of either product, but it seems I needn't worry unduly.  He's a big boy of 560kgs or so.
		
Click to expand...

Ditto.  Mine has as well, mytwofriends, so I was also wondering


----------



## Amymay (24 September 2010)

A lot of my clients would agree as the initial marketing of Danilon lead us to believe that it was safer for the stomach.
		
Click to expand...

Aha, which is exactly the reason why I would prefer it - so interesting.  But the taste test is the key I suppose - and most horses will take it straight from your hand.

Thanks Imogen.


----------



## Rachelk (24 September 2010)

Wow thanks guys for your replies, Not sure the weight of my boy but would guess 500kg and he is only on one a day so you have really helped me put my mind to rest and will now not be concerned when putting it in his diner!!

Great thanks to Imogen like the others have said it is really great to hear it from a vet.

Thanks everyone.


----------



## ct1 (27 September 2010)

cOULD I ASK AS WELL IF THE HORSE IS ON PERMANENT DANILON WHETHER IT IS STILL OKAY TO CONTINUE TO COMPETE. WE ONLY DO DRESSAGE.


----------



## Oberon (27 September 2010)

Please excuse me jumping on the thread - does Danilon have any effect on the liver? Is it a good idea to use a liver detox alongside it for an elderly/delicate horse?


----------



## applecart14 (27 September 2010)

ct1 said:



			cOULD I ASK AS WELL IF THE HORSE IS ON PERMANENT DANILON WHETHER IT IS STILL OKAY TO CONTINUE TO COMPETE. WE ONLY DO DRESSAGE.
		
Click to expand...

I know of someone who competes on bute.  Her horse has spavin.  I can't see what the issue is.  Its hardly a sport enhancing drug, its not going to make them jump any faster or any higher, but it will stop them from feeling a sore spot/injury and it means that they can still be competed and owned.  Its a necessity for a lot of horses.


----------



## Brandy (27 September 2010)

touchstone said:



			If it keeps a horse comfortable then I've no problem with it either, after all we take painkillers for long term conditions ourselves which also have side effects.

My friends horse started bute at the age of 17 for athritis, he has had bute regularly since and is now 28 and is fit as a lop (apart from his arthritis!)

There would probably be plenty of horses being pts if they couldn't have regular bute, so extra comfortable years are preferable I think.
		
Click to expand...

Very happy to hear this!! My 29 yr old is on one bute a day and when i asked the vet about the long term effects, she said 'hes 27, we're not really talkning long term are we' which I thought was a little brutal........


----------



## ossy (27 September 2010)

ct1 said:



			cOULD I ASK AS WELL IF THE HORSE IS ON PERMANENT DANILON WHETHER IT IS STILL OKAY TO CONTINUE TO COMPETE. WE ONLY DO DRESSAGE.
		
Click to expand...

As long as you are not completing at compitions with a drug testing policy as it is a banned sustance under FEI and jockey club rules and although at local level it isthere is nver likley o be any drug testing there is sometimes something in the schedules that say "operates under FEI rules" or something so I wouldn't go shouting it from the roof tops if you did, I personally don't have a problem with it but not everyone shares that opinion.


----------



## paulineh (27 September 2010)

I have been blood tested twice this year (2 different horses) Neither event was a FEI or Jockey club event.

The first time was at the Golden Horse Shoe and the second time was at an endurance race ride.

The length of time for withdrawal is 8 days so Bute / Danilon (Which is infact 50% stronger than Bute) should not be given for at least a week before you compete.

My feelings are that if a horse needs any form of pain killer they should not compete, Sorry folks


----------



## ImogenBurrows (27 September 2010)

Oberon said:



			Please excuse me jumping on the thread - does Danilon have any effect on the liver? Is it a good idea to use a liver detox alongside it for an elderly/delicate horse?
		
Click to expand...

All NSAIDs (danilon, bute, metacam, flunixin etc) are metabolized in the liver and excreted vis the kidney, so if you are giving your older horse/pony long term treatment then a simple blood test yearly to check liver function is not a bad idea. 

It's not a bad idea to use a liver detox product alongside, but I'd probably think it was better value for money to test the blood yearly and if there's a problem stop and reduce the dose....if you just give the detox, you still won't know there's a problem and continuing the drug will still be detrimental in these cases. 

Having said that, I've never found a horse with a liver problem from NSAIDs toxicity yet!!


----------



## ImogenBurrows (27 September 2010)

paulineh said:



			I have been blood tested twice this year (2 different horses) Neither event was a FEI or Jockey club event.

The first time was at the Golden Horse Shoe and the second time was at an endurance race ride.

The length of time for withdrawal is 8 days so Bute / Danilon (*Which is infact 50% stronger than Bute)* should not be given for at least a week before you compete.

My feelings are that if a horse needs any form of pain killer they should not compete, Sorry folks
		
Click to expand...

This is rubbish.   I don't where you got this from...maybe it's a simple misunderstanding from the packet weighting!! 

Bute is in a 1g sachet; Danilon 1.5g.  This doesn't make it 50% stronger; it is purely because it's sugar coated...therefore weighs 50% more!

Danilon's active ingredient is Suxibuzone, a prodrug of phenylbutazone, the active ingredient in 'Bute.  Suxibuzone is metabolized in the liver to phenylbutazone...they are exactly the same drug. Sorry to dispel that myth too!!! 

You are correct that there is an 8d withdrawal on these drugs though.

Bear in mind when exercising a horse on bute (or whatever) you are simply masking the underlying problems....if that's arthritis then ok....but if that's a dodgy tendon then competing is not cool.  Think about what you are doing to the damaged structures of the horse and then weight up that with the benefit of competing....who are you doing it for you or them?? Food for thought!


----------



## Oberon (27 September 2010)

ImogenBurrows said:



			All NSAIDs (danilon, bute, metacam, flunixin etc) are metabolized in the liver and excreted vis the kidney, so if you are giving your older horse/pony long term treatment then a simple blood test yearly to check liver function is not a bad idea. 

It's not a bad idea to use a liver detox product alongside, but I'd probably think it was better value for money to test the blood yearly and if there's a problem stop and reduce the dose....if you just give the detox, you still won't know there's a problem and continuing the drug will still be detrimental in these cases. 

Having said that, I've never found a horse with a liver problem from NSAIDs toxicity yet!! 

Click to expand...

Thank you. He is on a week's worth because of lymphangitis/cellulitis. As he is elderly I worry about upsetting the balance.


----------



## irishdraft (27 September 2010)

Thats very interesting information Imogen, i sometimes give my horse Danilon after hunting as she has mild arithus in the hock, but I was under the impression it was better for them re the gastric situation, My mare wont take bute in a feed but takes the Danilon, as its sugar coated, but it seems to be quite a bit more expensive than bute. Can I be cheeky I have posted on veternairy filled fetlocks etc any thoughts ??


----------



## MissMincePie&Brandy (27 September 2010)

Just wanted to say Thank You Imogen. This has answered many of my questions and cleared up a lot of misconceptions about these drugs.

My horse has just had a full set of x-rays and has been diagnosed with a lot of degenerative bone problems, and he has been prescribed 2 butes a day forever. 
He's a heavy set 17.2 TB (ex-chaser), the measure tape says he weighs 750kg but I don't think that can be right can it?


----------



## ct1 (28 September 2010)

Thanks Imogen.  She has arthritis so just wanted it clear in my mind before I enter any local dressage comps.


----------



## Brandy (28 September 2010)

Ditto the thanks to Imogen. Reassuring! Wondered if I was being mean sticking to Bute rather than the 'nicer' danilon as bute is cheaper but its seems I'm not a meany after all! My horse eats his tea with bute in no probs.


----------



## ImogenBurrows (28 September 2010)

Misinterpreted said:



			Just wanted to say Thank You Imogen. This has answered many of my questions and cleared up a lot of misconceptions about these drugs.

My horse has just had a full set of x-rays and has been diagnosed with a lot of degenerative bone problems, and he has been prescribed 2 butes a day forever. 
He's a heavy set 17.2 TB (ex-chaser), the measure tape says he weighs 750kg but I don't think that can be right can it?
		
Click to expand...

You're welcome - hope the info helps.
750Kg does sound a little heavy tbh - it's believable but I certainly would check him on a proper weigh bridge if you can!! Even so 2 bute a day isn't much...so he should be fine on that!!


----------



## angel7 (28 September 2010)

Could someone tell me if there as a more effective painkiller than Danilon for long term use?
My mare has a bone cyst in the coffin joint and remains 1/10 lame after 4 months rest and heart bars.
She started on 3 Danilon per day (she's about 600kg) but they seem to have no effect on her level of discomfort, so have been stopped.

Before I get her denerved is there anything else I can try?


----------



## ImogenBurrows (28 September 2010)

angel7 said:



			Could someone tell me if there as a more effective painkiller than Danilon for long term use?
My mare has a bone cyst in the coffin joint and remains 1/10 lame after 4 months rest and heart bars.
She started on 3 Danilon per day (she's about 600kg) but they seem to have no effect on her level of discomfort, so have been stopped.

Before I get her denerved is there anything else I can try?
		
Click to expand...

SOmetimes switching NSAID is enough - even for a short time....discuss using eithe flunixin (Finadyne) or meloxicam (Metacam) instead? If no response then at least you might feel you have exhausted all other avenues before denerving.


----------

