# Dressage: give and retake reins - any advice?



## soloequestrian (12 July 2014)

Two competitions in a row, I've had 'no give and retake' as a comment, when I HAVE given and retaken the reins.  In the first, I can clearly see the give and retake on the video of the test.  I've checked the rule book:

Give and retake the reins
The rider pushes forward one or both hands as stated on the test sheet to clearly release the
contact and then retake it. The movement of the hands/hand should be continuous and
achieved over two or three strides. As this is a test of self carriage the horse should stay in
balance, keeping the same rhythm, level of engagement, suppleness of the back, and accept
the restoration of contact without any loss of submission.

and I feel like that's what I'm doing - hand forward with rein looped for at least two strides.
Any advice on how I can do this so the judge can actually see it?  Feeling quite frustrated!


----------



## Fides (12 July 2014)

You should be showing a clear give. Some dressage judges want to see you ride on the buckle. What you describe is only really enough for give and retake on a circle.

Eta - it's give and take of the reins, not the contact.


----------



## meardsall_millie (12 July 2014)

Fides said:



			You should be showing a clear give. Some dressage judges want to see you ride on the buckle. What you describe is only really enough for give and retake on a circle.

Eta - it's give and take of the reins, not the contact.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, very confused by this post, are you getting confused with 'allowing the horse to stretch'? - the G&R should not be ridden 'on the buckle' and it is definitely a release of the contact.

A G&R should be done towards the bit and should show a clear release of the contact (a loop in the reins).  I judge lots of riders who either lift their hands straight upwards, or push them forwards towards the ears, neither of which actually releases the contact.  The point of the movement is to show that the horse is working in self carriage so it shouldn't drop the head down and forwards, or lift the head up.


----------



## Pigeon (12 July 2014)

I've always been really confused by this movement.

When you do a give and retake, surely the horse would try to keep the contact and follow it down? If you give and retake and the head stays in the same place, would that mean that the horse isn't truly on the bit, but in a frame? I guess I'm just in a little confusion about self carriage, and what this movement should look like. I know the rhythm etc part is obvious, because you should be riding off of your seat, and the retake is obvious, because the horse should accept the contact being retaken obediently, but it's what the horse should actually look like during the release that confuses me.

Also as others have said - I've  been told 'no G+R' too, even though there was definitely a loop in the reins for two strides. Am I right that you don't actually lengthen your reins, just move your hands forwards? Or should you be adjusting your reins for more give?


----------



## meardsall_millie (12 July 2014)

Pigeon said:



			I've always been really confused by this movement.

When you do a give and retake, surely the horse would try to keep the contact and follow it down? If you give and retake and the head stays in the same place, would that mean that the horse isn't truly on the bit, but in a frame? I guess I'm just in a little confusion about self carriage, and what this movement should look like. I know the rhythm etc part is obvious, because you should be riding off of your seat, and the retake is obvious, because the horse should accept the contact being retaken obediently, but it's what the horse should actually look like during the release that confuses me.

Also as others have said - I've  been told 'no G+R' too, even though there was definitely a loop in the reins for two strides. Am I right that you don't actually lengthen your reins, just move your hands forwards? Or should you be adjusting your reins for more give?
		
Click to expand...

Self carriage shows the horse is supporting itself without balancing or relying on the riders hand - that's what the G&R aims to demonstrate.  If the horse isn't truly in self carriage then as soon as the contact is released it will drop the head forwards (and will probably also fall onto the forehand) or it will lose balance and probably throw it's head up.  Following the contact is a different thing where the rider actually asks for a different head position or frame, etc.


----------



## Shay (12 July 2014)

Meardsall Mille is quite right.  The movement must be toward the bit, following the rein / hand / elbow line.  The contact should be clearly released over 2 to 3 strides with the horse remaining in self carriage throughout.  The most common mistake I see in G&R is pushing the hand up the neck without actually releasing the contact at all.   If there is a loop in the rein and still a "no G&R" comment then the movement might have been too abrupt, or perhaps the contact wasn't correctly re-established?  It should be a smooth continuous movement returning to contact without any alteration in the horse's self carriage.  

The horse shouldn't follow the contact out and down - the movement is too brief, and you won't have altered your seat and body to encourage a stretch.  If over a couple of strides only you loose the contact and the horse's head drops like a stone it shows you are holding him in place - rather than him holding himself.

Perhaps it would be worth getting a couple of lessons, or go to a clinic or something -  to get some outside help in establishing the movement?


----------



## cundlegreen (12 July 2014)

I make a point of taking my hands forward up the horse's crest so its easily viewed by the judge.I always do it for at least three strides. Usually get good marks and comments for it, so like to think I'm doing it right.


----------



## nikkimariet (12 July 2014)

meardsall_millie said:



			Sorry, very confused by this post, are you getting confused with 'allowing the horse to stretch'? - the G&R should not be ridden 'on the buckle' and it is definitely a release of the contact.
		
Click to expand...

Yep!


----------



## Kelpie (12 July 2014)

Pigeon, I'm with you, I've always found this movement confusing.  In fact I'd go as far as to say it is contradictory and inappropriate - if the point is that the horse doesn't change his position when you change your hand position/ put a loop in the reins.  

Surely the horse should want to follow the rider's hands.... so if your hands go forward and towards the bit, the horse should extend his neck forwards to seek the contact.  In my mind, in fact this should be so even if you only are pushing your hands forward for a few strides - after all, a horse should either be following the bit or not.  If the horse "stays put" up in his frame, then he is in a frame, he is not truly on the bit.  This is of course an entirely different situation to a good quality true collection - e.g. a "proper" classical piaffe - where the horse puts a loop in the rein himself almost as he is so light and collected.  

If I had my way, marks would be given in this movement for the horse following the bit forward.  Just as well I event     (though actually they do have this movement in eventing also but generally only with one rein so not so bad as you can ask the horse to stay put with that rein........).


----------



## Red-1 (12 July 2014)

Loving this thread, I too have a difficulty that if you allow the horse to stretch he should follow your hand forward, but apparently if you drop him he should not seek you?????

I was trained to give a different feel with my seat, to brace into the saddle if the horse is to remain up, and to go forwards a bit if the horse need to stretch. 

At least this way my horse has a way to distinguish if I want him to seek or stay.


----------



## ihatework (12 July 2014)

OP worth looking at this link below.

Incorrect releases by lifting the hands above the neck are so very common.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bXH2BplwDqA


----------



## Fides (12 July 2014)

ihatework said:



			OP worth looking at this link below.

Incorrect releases by lifting the hands above the neck are so very common.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bXH2BplwDqA

Click to expand...

Good link thanks 

Also illustrates why we wear white gloves


----------



## meardsall_millie (12 July 2014)

ihatework said:



			OP worth looking at this link below.

Incorrect releases by lifting the hands above the neck are so very common.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bXH2BplwDqA

Click to expand...

Great video, I'd forgotten about that!

And the horse stayed in self carriage and didn't follow the contact forwards.....


----------



## Pigeon (12 July 2014)

Haha I'm possibly (probably) just being thick, but I am still confused! 

The Anna Ross Davies video helped a bit, I'm definitely doing the incorrect thing of leaning forwards...



Kelpie said:



			Pigeon, I'm with you, I've always found this movement confusing.  In fact I'd go as far as to say it is contradictory and inappropriate - if the point is that the horse doesn't change his position when you change your hand position/ put a loop in the reins.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly! Maybe at prelim level anyway. I've been spending all my time teaching him to follow the contact down, though admittedly for a stretch there's not meant to be a loop in the reins.

I have video of us doing a g&r actually, I'll upload it. We've had two 'no G & R seen' comments when we do it like this, but then we've also had fives and sixes for the same, so perhaps some mark more on rhythm etc than outline.

[video=youtube_share;w33E7UlZgXw]http://youtu.be/w33E7UlZgXw[/video]

How do I teach him not to stick his nose out? Even if he feels very light in the hand going into it, the nose still pokes! Presumably that means he's not in self carriage, although I think even if he was, he would think giving the contact meant he was supposed to do something! I guess this isn't a movement as such, it's more of a test, like taking your leg off to see if horse is moving forward without being nagged. But it's still one we are failing at 

I can give one rein without his outline changing, if I give the reins slowly he stretches down, if I do it abruptly I can just about get away with it, but doing it for two or more strides, he just gets a confused bug eyed expression and the nose goes out. Half thinking at actual dressage I might just give the one on the judge's side and hope for the best


----------



## Kelpie (13 July 2014)

Good Anna Ross David vid..... but actually I have to say it looks to me as though the horse does lengthen his neck in the G&R???  Am I seeing the same thing as everyone else?!

Maybe it is helpful if I clarify what I have as a mental image here for G&R?.... basically I do get the point that you're not supposed to be "holding" your horse up into an outline, so of course when you give the rein the horse shouldn't suddenly collapse onto the forehand and drop his head down.  However, he should politely and softely follow the rein down - to follow your hand..... and actually that's what I see the horse in Anna's vid starting to do.  

Pigeon, I'll let the more qualified BD people give you better advice than I will (I follow French classical so it has some pretty big differences to a lot of BD stuff anyway).  However, for what it's worth, if it was me I'd work on the exercise while having more of a bend, for example to the inside, so when you give with your hands and the horse follows you down (assuming that's what you want but that's another debate!) - basically he stretches a bit more on one side but with the inside hand you are still able to influence where the nose goes.... then once the horse has better got the idea, go back to having the horse follow the hand down with less and less of a bend until you are giving equally with both hands.  Nice horse, though


----------



## Kelpie (13 July 2014)

damned phone..... Davies not David......


----------



## Pigeon (13 July 2014)

Kelpie said:



			Good Anna Ross David vid..... but actually I have to say it looks to me as though the horse does lengthen his neck in the G&R???  Am I seeing the same thing as everyone else?!
		
Click to expand...

Haha me too, but too scared to say. Also canter is a rounder pace anyway - our give and retake in canter is noticeably less nose pokey than in trot. Perhaps that's because my bum is actually in the saddle? I think all of the g&rs at prelim are in working trot though.

That's a good idea, I'll give it a try tomorrow and report back


----------



## soloequestrian (13 July 2014)

Thanks, the ARD clip is helpful.  I think I get pretty close to the correct version, though I probably tend to release by moving my hands in line with the top of the neck, in the same was as I release when jumping.  Perhaps I need to try to push them lower.  Also I could try wearing light coloured gloves to make it more obvious!


----------



## Sol (13 July 2014)

I don't think Dan would understand if I did it this 'proper' way. We were doing our 'normal' g&r's whilst trotting on a hack the other day, and he stayed 'up'. I push my hands forwards, straightening my arms but certainly don't lift my hands (which would to him say 'lift your head more!'), but if I took my hands down he'd take that to mean 'take your head down'. How do people differentiate to the horse if they take their hands down (presuming you also do lower the hand slightly to encourage a stretch)?


----------



## star (13 July 2014)

I am so glad that we have moved on past having to do G&R in trot.  At least in canter you are sat in the saddle and can hold them there with your seat. I never could get Monty to do it in rising trot without him either hollowing or seeking the rein down. How many horses at Prelim are truely in enough self carriage to do it well? I suspect a lot of those that remain in a nice outline are probably stuck there no matter what the rider does!


----------



## meardsall_millie (13 July 2014)

I do understand the confusion between the G&R and allowing the horse to stretch into the contact but there really is (and should be) a difference!  

The G&R shows that the horse is in self carriage and is able to maintain it without support from the rider, albeit only briefly.  It really should be a fairly swift and smooth movement but should not be confused with quickly chucking the reins at the horse or allowing a gradual and sustained release into the contact!  From a judging point of view it's easy to see if it's done properly or not (and yes we do notice if you only give with one hand not two  ).  Also a horse that's tight in the neck and doesn't move because it's rigid should be noticed and marked accordingly.  

Whilst I wouldn't expect a horse at Prelim to be in absolute self carriage and hold the head perfectly still, I would expect it to maintain its outline for a stride or two without support.  I certainly wouldn't expect it to drop like a brick because the rider has been supporting it too much.  Of course if it the G&R was prolonged I would expect the horse to start to reach down to seek the contact as has been suggested earlier in the thread.

I judged earlier today and one of the tests had this movement in it.  From about 10 riders I'd say only 1 showed a correct G&R, and another was 'almost' there.  The others lifted their hands straight up or towards the ears without actually releasing the contact.  It really is a movement that is often badly ridden and marks are thrown away unnecessarily 

Allowing the horse to stretch is usually done on a 20m circle.  For this movement I would expect the rider to gradually allow the horse to stretch down over the first quarter of the circle, maintain it for the following half of the circle and retake the reins in the final quarter.  Throughout the movement the contact should be maintained.  Compare that to the G&R which happens over just a few strides with the contact completely released.

Does that help at all?


----------



## pootleperkin (13 July 2014)

Both my tests had G&R in them today, and I did as in the Anna RD video linked here earlier - in all cases I got comments that the G&R wasn't particularly evident!! Won't be doing that again! Back to making a slightly grander gesture....


----------



## soloequestrian (13 July 2014)

pootleperkin said:



			Both my tests had G&R in them today, and I did as in the Anna RD video linked here earlier - in all cases I got comments that the G&R wasn't particularly evident!! Won't be doing that again! Back to making a slightly grander gesture....
		
Click to expand...

Yes, this is my basic problem - I'm fairly sure I understand the move and its relevance, and I definitely do give the rein away when performing it, but for some reason what I do isn't obvious to the judge.  What form does your grander gesture take?!


----------



## soloequestrian (13 July 2014)

meardsall_millie said:



			I judged earlier today and one of the tests had this movement in it.  From about 10 riders I'd say only 1 showed a correct G&R, and another was 'almost' there.  The others lifted their hands straight up or towards the ears without actually releasing the contact.  It really is a movement that is often badly ridden and marks are thrown away unnecessarily 

Click to expand...

Could you describe exactly what they did to get it right?  I understand the movement, I'm confident that my horse stays in self carriage during it (in canter anyway, I've never come across it in trot), but I'm obviously not doing what the judge wants me to do!


----------



## Kelpie (13 July 2014)

meardsall_millie said:



			I do understand the confusion between the G&R and allowing the horse to stretch into the contact but there really is (and should be) a difference!  

The G&R shows that the horse is in self carriage and is able to maintain it without support from the rider, albeit only briefly.  It really should be a fairly swift and smooth movement but should not be confused with quickly chucking the reins at the horse or allowing a gradual and sustained release into the contact!  From a judging point of view it's easy to see if it's done properly or not (and yes we do notice if you only give with one hand not two  ).  Also a horse that's tight in the neck and doesn't move because it's rigid should be noticed and marked accordingly.  

Whilst I wouldn't expect a horse at Prelim to be in absolute self carriage and hold the head perfectly still, I would expect it to maintain its outline for a stride or two without support.  I certainly wouldn't expect it to drop like a brick because the rider has been supporting it too much.  Of course if it the G&R was prolonged I would expect the horse to start to reach down to seek the contact as has been suggested earlier in the thread.

I judged earlier today and one of the tests had this movement in it.  From about 10 riders I'd say only 1 showed a correct G&R, and another was 'almost' there.  The others lifted their hands straight up or towards the ears without actually releasing the contact.  It really is a movement that is often badly ridden and marks are thrown away unnecessarily 

Allowing the horse to stretch is usually done on a 20m circle.  For this movement I would expect the rider to gradually allow the horse to stretch down over the first quarter of the circle, maintain it for the following half of the circle and retake the reins in the final quarter.  Throughout the movement the contact should be maintained.  Compare that to the G&R which happens over just a few strides with the contact completely released.

Does that help at all?
		
Click to expand...

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain but I have to confess to still being a bit stuck on it........ if you give the reins down toward the bit, and you're in rising trot, what are your aids to tell the horse you actually don't want him to follow the bit down?  Totally agree he shouldn't fall like a brick but equally why wouldn't the horse want to stretch forward and down?  Or are you saying well you would expect the horse to stretch forward and down after a few more strides, but just not straight away when you give? Agree with Star that in canter it's easier as you can "hold" with your seat, but in a prelim test, in rising trot?


----------



## pootleperkin (13 July 2014)

Umm, mainly wafting my hands around a bit more and a bit higher! But a bit more seriously, today I pushed my reins forward as on the video, whereas in the past I've lifted my hands up a bit more and pushed them forward; that seems to go down a bit better with the judges. A bit cross I tried the new technique today, as was placed second by only 0.4%, so a bad time to try it!  Was pleased whatever, as scored 70.4% Horse usually stays in his frame, but starts to drop just a little bit if I let the movement go for more than a few seconds. 

I should also say that it's not just something I do in tests; I also drop the Contact a fair bit when schooling, just to make sure that he's not leaning and is carrying himself, but of course I don't have to be so obvious about it!




soloequestrian said:



			Yes, this is my basic problem - I'm fairly sure I understand the move and its relevance, and I definitely do give the rein away when performing it, but for some reason what I do isn't obvious to the judge.  What form does your grander gesture take?!
		
Click to expand...


----------



## whiteflower (13 July 2014)

are you leaning forwards when you give and then dropping your hands causing the contact to retake before you have given fully maybe ?

i find sometimes if you lean forwards the dropping of the hands mean the 'loop' in the rein gets taken up again before you have done a clear 'give'


----------



## soloequestrian (17 August 2014)

Today we got '7, well tried' - very pleased, all the advice obviously worked!


----------



## Fides (17 August 2014)

soloequestrian said:



			Today we got '7, well tried' - very pleased, all the advice obviously worked!
		
Click to expand...

So what _did_ you do?


----------



## slumdog (17 August 2014)

Last week I pushed my hands forwards towards the bit and got "clear g&r, horse lost outline" so we can technically do it, but it turns us into a giraffe lol


----------



## soloequestrian (18 August 2014)

Fides said:



			So what _did_ you do?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not actually sure what I did differently.  I think I held it for slightly longer... maybe.  So either I absorbed all the advice subconsciously and did something better OR I was doing it fine all along and the previous judges had looked away for a second!


----------

