# PETA trying to ban horseriding



## Oreo&Amy (6 July 2022)

In the online news I read that PETA is trying to ban horseriding. One quote is ‘If we look honestly at our relationship with horses, we must acknowledge that the decision to take part in horseback riding is made solely by one individual with little benefit to and no input from the other’. Unbelievable.
Just shows how they have no understanding of how good horse owners have a unique bond with their horses and how much their horses love their ‘work’. Some of PETA’s principles are a little more understandable (killing endangered animals for a handbag) but come on. They claim to love animals but clearly have spent zero time around good, caring horse owners. Yes there are bad owners and they should be dealt with. There are also bad parents does that mean we stop procreating the human race? I find this bizarre and not just because I’m a rider who spoils her horse rotten and knows him well enough to know he is happy. Thoughts??


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## fiwen30 (6 July 2022)

That’s hilarious. How on earth do they expect to enforce that, even if it ever became a thing?


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## Pearlsasinger (6 July 2022)

PETA have no power to ban anything


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## Goldenstar (6 July 2022)

PETA have lots of opinions.


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## KittenInTheTree (6 July 2022)

I don't care for PETA, but I'm starting to question a lot of what we normalise regarding how we interact with other species.


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## ycbm (6 July 2022)

It won't happen any time soon but they do have a point.
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## Petalpoos (6 July 2022)

Kitteninthetree - I live 12 miles outside of Brighton, so you may chose to disregard my like 🤪


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## Oreo&Amy (7 July 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			PETA have lots of opinions.
		
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Most BS. And they objectified women with that gross naked ad with all the naked women everywhere. Hypocrites!!


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## scats (7 July 2022)

I hate PETA, but they do have a point here.  Horses don’t get much out of it and the vast majority would be just as happy out in a field with their mates.


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## ycbm (7 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			Most BS. And they objectified women with that gross naked ad with all the naked women everywhere. Hypocrites!!
		
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I don't see how that's hypocritical?  The women consented to the use of photographs of them naked.  Kind of emphasises their point about horses not consenting?




Oreo&Amy said:



			I find this bizarre and not just because I’m a rider who spoils her horse rotten and knows him well enough to know he is happy. Thoughts??
		
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I think people need to question whether what we call "spoiling a horse rotten" is actually what the horse would consider being spoilt rotten,  and even if it is,  whether that is in a "massage at the spa" sense or a "here's your Big Mac darling" sense. 
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## Oreo&Amy (7 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			I don't see how that's hypocritical?  The women consented to the use of photographs of them naked.  Kind of emphasises their point about horses not consenting?





I think people need to question whether what we call "spoiling a horse rotten" is actually what the horse would consider being spoilt rotten,  and even if it is,  whether that is in a "massage at the spa" sense or a "here's your Big Mac darling" sense.
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Well they are supposed to stand for equality, but I don’t see any naked men. And in the #metoo generation I think consent is a different beast than it was when that advert was made!!!!


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## Oreo&Amy (7 July 2022)

KittenInTheTree said:



			I don't care for PETA, but I'm starting to question a lot of what we normalise regarding how we interact with other species.
		
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But humans and domesticated animals have interacted (mostly well) for millions of years…..many wild horse populations would have died out without domestication and we could have a world devoid or lacking in these beautiful animals. I do believe you can interpret behavioural signals as to whether a horse is ‘content’ as opposed to unhappy…..


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## Oreo&Amy (7 July 2022)

I posted on instagram about Isabel Werth- that is disgusting though. Using kindness and common sense most riders can have a great mutual relationship with their horse or pony x


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## lynz88 (7 July 2022)

PETA have lots of weird and whacky stuff that they campaign for.  I frankly find them to be stupidly OTT.  I tend to ignore anything PETA related, personally.  It's like the Bible thumpers...very OTT imo and not worth my energy.  2 years ago a PETA member was protesting the slaughter of animals for meat outside of a slaughterhouse and was killed by a transport truck in Ontario.  She was in the wrong - she was standing in a known blind spot of the truck driver when she was struck yet the outrage from activists was that the truck driver was in the wrong and she was an innocent protestor.

All that said, they do have a slight point however I do notice a change in my horse's attitude after he has worked and I do wonder if exercise releases endorphins for horses like exercise does in people.  Said horse though, is fairly happy to just be a pasture ornament but so are so many people (sofa ornament).


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## Pinkvboots (7 July 2022)

It's weird my oh said to me about a month ago about them trying to ban the riding of horses in the future 😳


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## ycbm (7 July 2022)

Pinkvboots said:



			It's weird my oh said to me about a month ago about them trying to ban the riding of horses in the future 😳
		
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We already have some vets refusing to castrate animals so they can be pets, I think it's pretty easy this last few years to see how top level competition could be banned,  then all competition, then leisure riding.  Not soon,  but definitely possible. 
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## ycbm (7 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			without domestication ....  we could have a world devoid or lacking in these beautiful animals
		
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How would that matter for horses?   If it meant I could get the terrible images of how horses and donkeys are abused in working environments in the third world, systematic abuse of TWH horses in the US,  long distance racers legs snapping in the desert,  out of my mind,  I'd happily never see a horse again.
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## KittenInTheTree (7 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			But humans and domesticated animals have interacted (mostly well) for millions of years…..many wild horse populations would have died out without domestication and we could have a world devoid or lacking in these beautiful animals. I do believe you can interpret behavioural signals as to whether a horse is ‘content’ as opposed to unhappy…..
		
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Did you...did you _seriously_ just imply that humans are better at managing the planet than literal _nature_ is?!

We're nothing but a tiny little smear on the grand scheme of evolution, darling. We don't matter a whit. The planet was here long before us, and it will endure long after we're gone. The best we can hope for is that we don't render it incompatible with biological life as we know it in the interim. And even if we do, it's a living planet. It will go on. Eventually, new species will rise from the ashes of our incompetence and inherit everything. Because that is what nature _does_.


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## CanteringCarrot (7 July 2022)

Yeah but most people cannot interpret horse behavior or how the horse feels, it's overshadowed by human feelings and emotions. We are selfish in this hobby and while people advocate for and/or practice "good welfare" standards, it's still all about us, the people. It's a selfish endeavor.

I battle with it a bit sometimes. It's always in the back of my mind. I've also said that if my riding gets worse with age, I will stop. It's not fair to the horse to tolerate my mediocre skills anyway, never mind if they deteriorate. I sort of draw a line for my selfishness there.

Sometimes I look around at a competition and think "this is actually a bit stupid" 🤣 we dress up and bring these horses to this location, only to see a bunch of strange horses and stressed/nervous humans (not all riders are though). What a time. Granted, I can't talk because I compete as a piece of my horses education, but if we were having a bad time or I was a mess (nerves wise) I wouldn't do it, or even if he didn't have the nerve for it I wouldn't force the matter.

It's a selfish, weird, and expensive hobby.


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## Birker2020 (7 July 2022)

_Horses deserve to live their lives as nature intended. We can connect with horses in our care and have a meaningful and mutually beneficial relationship with these sensitive animals without climbing on top of them._

What rot!  And if a rule came into force 'banning horse riding' (not that it ever would) I wonder what would happen to all the horses unable to be ridden anymore?? Millions PTS I would imagine, not every horse owner is prepared to keep an animal that can't be ridden.


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## Orangehorse (7 July 2022)

I could see it happening, a long time in the future.  Humans have always exploited the planet and the creatures that live with us.  From killing animals for food, then learning that some animals could be tamed and used - dogs, cattle and then horses.  So it has always been humans using animals.

Until cars were invented horses were the main means of transport and that is all they were.  A very few used them for sport - deer hunting, jousting, and not forgetting war horses, but that was part of being transport.

When you think of all the resources it takes to keep pet and sport horses it is a lot of unnecessary consumption.  Although of course I also realise that this supports many individuals and businesses - vets, feed supply, farriers, equipment manufacture and supply -  its all part of the modern economy.  But is it necessary, for humans or the horses themselves?  Not really.

In World War II there was mass slaughter of pet horses, even in the USA, as food would be for humans not pets.  And of course poor old Warrior, the hero of WW I,  was PTS at the outbreak of WW II as his owner realised that all the food that he was eating would be needed for humans - and he was pretty old by then of course.

The current horse population would have a job to survive without the intervention of humans, after all most breeds have been developed by humans for their own use - tall, fast, pretty, adapted to jump or to gallop or do dressage or all the other things that we want to use them for.  But populations of animals soon adapt to fit their surroundings so they could go back to being just horses living (and dying) in the world.


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## Birker2020 (7 July 2022)

Orangehorse said:



			I
The current horse population would have a job to survive without the intervention of humans, after all most breeds have been developed by humans for their own use - tall, fast, pretty, adapted to jump or to gallop or do dressage or all the other things that we want to use them for.  But populations of animals soon adapt to fit their surroundings so they could go back to being just horses living (and dying) in the world.
		
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Exactly this.  Imagine if every horse/pony was now unable to be ridden.  Riding schools and livery yards and eventing centres would close.  There would be no more horse racing.  All those horses that people would no longer have a need for, where would they all go?  How would they survive?  They are not feral, you cant turn a domesticated horse into a feral horse.  They need their feet trimmed, wormed, etc.  I know in the wild they have none of this but they have been born feral and this is different.


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## milliepops (7 July 2022)

Just because the horses currently exist in racing, riding schools etc isn't an argument for continuing to ride them, it just means they are conveniently there for our use. they will die and they will be replaced for as long as people see it as their right to use them.  Otherwise you could say "well we can't shut down this lab that tests lipstick on rabbits because what would happen to all the rabbits".  Sometimes a greater moral purpose trumps those kind of things. 

Anyway, i highly doubt there will be any big bang effect where we all stop riding overnight and cull thousands of now useless horses. it is more likely to slowly become less acceptable and gradually decline a bit like hunting.


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## Miss_Millie (7 July 2022)

Tbh, I think the way that most people ride and train isn't optimal to the wellbeing and happiness of horses. We don't give our horses any autonomy, if they do anything we don't want then they're 'playing up' or 'naughty'. Most people 'correct' this with a stick. I think that most horses that appear to be outwardly 'well-behaved', are low-level scared of doing the wrong thing and being punished for it. We also micromanage their lives outside of being ridden. It's all far from natural. 

I say this as a horse owner. I question whether we should be doing any of this stuff. And what you view as 'spoiling your horse rotten' might not mean anything to him/her. Most horses would probably be happiest out 24/7 with a large space to roam in and companionship from a herd, with a big shaggy coat, no rugs or horseshoes or any of the stuff we humans deem they 'need'.


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## smolmaus (7 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



_Horses deserve to live their lives as nature intended. We can connect with horses in our care and have a meaningful and mutually beneficial relationship with these sensitive animals without climbing on top of them._

What rot!  And if a rule came into force 'banning horse riding' (not that it ever would) I wonder what would happen to all the horses unable to be ridden anymore?? Millions PTS I would imagine, not every horse owner is prepared to keep an animal that can't be ridden.

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I actually think both parts of this post are true. Having been a Riding School Rider for most of my life the riding part was how I got to be with horses. My work at the rescue over the last 2.5 years and the process of trying to back Sadie slowly (read: at snails pace) has been hundreds of hours of time with horses where riding is never even a thought in the back of my mind and I personally think I get more out of it, not less. Having unridden equines as companion animals, just because you love to be around them, is completely valid. It's also valid for people to say that they wouldn't keep horses without the sporting/ridden element as that is where they find the enjoyment. One isn't less than the other.


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## MagicMelon (7 July 2022)

Im on the fence. Im an eventer at my core, Im going XC schooling this afternoon and have a hunter trial at the weekend. But yes I am very much questioning the higher levels, there have been too many horse deaths - surely we can all agree with that?  Something has to be done. Im really not surprised eventing is in the spotlight with PETA. From the outside, and even from the inside, it doesnt paint a pretty picture in terms of horse welfare right now does it?  I would never compete at a very high level ever again, I did 1* and now I actually feel pretty guilty for asking that of my horse even though he never got injured, but I feel lucky now that he didnt. I wouldnt ask another horse to go probably beyond even novice level now as obviously its safer statistically at the lower levels. Horses dont choose to event, of course they dont. You see people hitting their horses all the time if they have a refusal - is that kind?  Is the horse choosing the jump that jump because they want to or because they get smacked if they dont?  IMO we should strip all those extra things away - take away the whips and the spurs and the nasty bits etc. We have to be seen to be making BIG changes to improve their welfare. People also say they "spoil" their horses rotten which I really struggle with as to them that normally means they give them a stable which they're in most of the time with lovely expensive rugs and the best hay etc. Great but a horse doesnt want any of those things ultimately - it wants to be outside 24/7 with other horses. I always try to keep my horses as naturally as possible, to me that is giving them the absolute basics but so many seem to think natural is bad!  Leaving a horse outside in bad weather is terrible and the owner clearly doesnt love their horse, absolute drivel. 

But Im also very aware of where will it stop - if we ban eventing, then horse riding in general would be the next target. Its a real moral conundrum but I support PETA that something needs to be done, a ban no, but big changes and a rethink of every single horse owner with how they look after and treat their own horses - yes.


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## Birker2020 (7 July 2022)

smolmaus said:



			I actually think both parts of this post are true. Having been a Riding School Rider for most of my life the riding part was how I got to be with horses. My work at the rescue over the last 2.5 years and the process of trying to back Sadie slowly (read: at snails pace) has been hundreds of hours of time with horses where riding is never even a thought in the back of my mind and I personally think I get more out of it, not less. Having unridden equines as companion animals, just because you love to be around them, is completely valid. It's also valid for people to say that they wouldn't keep horses without the sporting/ridden element as that is where they find the enjoyment. One isn't less than the other.
		
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I get that, and one isn't less than the other (as I have proved myself with my previous and current horse) but what I'm saying is that businesses like racehorse trainers, show jumping yards, riding schools (the type of establishments where there are lots of horses grouped together) are not going to keep horses if they cannot earn a living out of them.  Simple as that. Why would they?  Horses cost a fortune, if you run a business and it doesn't make a profit it finishes.

I am guessing that the average Joe Bloggs would not keep a horse that couldn't be ridden unless of course they'd had it a long time and it owed them nothing but in the crazy situation described these are all perfectly healthy horses that some crazy law says we are not allowed to ride anymore.


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## Miss_Millie (7 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I get that, and one isn't less than the other (as I have proved myself with my previous and current horse) but what I'm saying is that businesses like racehorse trainers, show jumping yards, riding schools (the type of establishments where there are lots of horses grouped together) are not going to keep horses if they cannot earn a living out of them.  Simple as that. Why would they?  Horses cost a fortune, if you run a business and it doesn't make a profit it finishes.

I am guessing that the average Joe Bloggs would not keep a horse that couldn't be ridden *unless of course they'd had it a long time and it owed them nothing* but in the crazy situation described these are all perfectly healthy horses that some crazy law says we are not allowed to ride anymore.
		
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I think the mindset of horses 'owing us' is a huge part of the problem. It highlights how one-sided horse ownership can be, and therefore not to the benefit of the horse, but solely for the enjoyment of the rider.


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## ester (7 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			But humans and domesticated animals have interacted (mostly well) for millions of years…..many wild horse populations would have died out without domestication and we could have a world devoid or lacking in these beautiful animals. I do believe you can interpret behavioural signals as to whether a horse is ‘content’ as opposed to unhappy…..
		
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you’re a bit keen with your dates
For horses domestication about 6000 years, not really millions 😂
We’ve only been around 350000 years so def not millions 😂😂


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## Alibear (7 July 2022)

I think we will eventually stop riding/working horses but not globally at the same time.  The cost of keeping them, scarcity of land and viable alternatives for transport will eventually shrink numbers and it will become less socially acceptable. This is all in progress currently and has been for many years.


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## paddy555 (7 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			what I'm saying is that businesses like racehorse trainers, show jumping yards, riding schools (the type of establishments where there are lots of horses grouped together) are not going to keep horses if they cannot earn a living out of them.  Simple as that. Why would they?  Horses cost a fortune, if you run a business and it doesn't make a profit it finishes.
		
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no they will not keep going. Question is though that some horse riding, competing and training is not beneficial to the horses. For the most part he plods along and does as he is told, like it or not so humans can earn their living or get their pleasure and excitement. . 

Should we keep a business going because a human wants to make a profit whereas the other business partner ie the horse may not have a very good lifestyle.?


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## shortstuff99 (7 July 2022)

I think as long as racing still happens the rest will (as you can't exactly ban riding or horse sports but allow racing). 

Seeing the crowds recently at racing meets and the money in it I can't see it being banned anytime soon.

I also feel it would be hard to ban horse riding while still having intensive animal farming and eating meat.


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## paddy555 (7 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			. One quote is ‘If we look honestly at our relationship with horses, we must acknowledge that the decision to take part in horseback riding is made solely by one individual with little benefit to and no input from the other’. Unbelievable.


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far from unbelievable I think it is a pretty true statement. Whether horse riders like it may be a different question 




Oreo&Amy said:



			Just shows how they have no understanding of how good horse owners have a unique bond with their horses and how much their horses love their ‘work’. 

 I find this bizarre and not just because I’m a rider who spoils her horse rotten and knows him well enough to know he is happy. Thoughts??
		
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horse owners do feel they have a unique bond. You  have paid for him, spend all your time lavishing expensive time and care on him and you are in love with him. Of course you feel bonded.

Does he love his work? there are endless posts on here my horse won't, leave the yard, jump, lead, school or whatever. He bucks, runs, rears, bites, kicks and everything else. We did an event at the week end and he is sore, still, lame, vet is coming out to look at a tendon, physio is coming to see why he is sore. Vet has now just been and he is on box rest for 3 months to deal with his injuries and he is already upset in his box. After 3 months box rest I have to start handwalking for 10 minutes, how do I control him. 

Do those sound like happy horses loving their work. How many horses simply don't do most of those things because they are too subservient or have been made to behave? It that happiness or simply no choice. 

Does your horse want to be spoilt rotten? how can anyone really know if their horse is happy? 

I've had horses for around 50 years and with each passing year I wonder more and more if a lot of what we are doing is really acceptable. I used to think my horses were happy and they have had a lot more than many horses, freedom, a relatively easy and safe worklife etc but realistically I can look back over around 25 horses and say that without any doubt  only 2 of them were bonded with me, their choice, they adored me. 

The rest, the very vast majority,  realistically had a much better life than in some places but probably little more than that in terms of their happiness. 

I'm sure it won't be banned, too much money in some sports but a fair amount of truth in Peta's statement above.


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## humblepie (7 July 2022)

We think horse riding and think competing or leisure.  Horses are still used for work or transport be that ridden or driving in parts of the world. I have just googled horse use in Mongolia for example. I haven’t read the PETA statement so not sure how far it goes but are they differentiating?


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## Lacuna (7 July 2022)

I don't have much truck with PETA ever since I heard how many animals they euthanise every year at their 'rescue' centres. Their ideal world view contains no animals bred for food (which I can somewhat understand from an ethical point of view) but also no companion animals - to me that would be quite a lonely, sterile world with no dogs/cats etc to share it with


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## Oreo&Amy (7 July 2022)

paddy555 said:



			far from unbelievable I think it is a pretty true statement. Whether horse riders like it may be a different question 




horse owners do feel they have a unique bond. You  have paid for him, spend all your time lavishing expensive time and care on him and you are in love with him. Of course you feel bonded.

Does he love his work? there are endless posts on here my horse won't, leave the yard, jump, lead, school or whatever. He bucks, runs, rears, bites, kicks and everything else. We did an event at the week end and he is sore, still, lame, vet is coming out to look at a tendon, physio is coming to see why he is sore. Vet has now just been and he is on box rest for 3 months to deal with his injuries and he is already upset in his box. After 3 months box rest I have to start handwalking for 10 minutes, how do I control him.

Do those sound like happy horses loving their work. How many horses simply don't do most of those things because they are too subservient or have been made to behave? It that happiness or simply no choice.

Does your horse want to be spoilt rotten? how can anyone really know if their horse is happy?

I've had horses for around 50 years and with each passing year I wonder more and more if a lot of what we are doing is really acceptable. I used to think my horses were happy and they have had a lot more than many horses, freedom, a relatively easy and safe worklife etc but realistically I can look back over around 25 horses and say that without any doubt  only 2 of them were bonded with me, their choice, they adored me.

The rest, the very vast majority,  realistically had a much better life than in some places but probably little more than that in terms of their happiness.

I'm sure it won't be banned, too much money in some sports but a fair amount of truth in Peta's statement above.
		
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But they don’t want to ban horseriding, just eventing. That’s what I find almost most biazarre….plus they are all animals, you cannot anthromorohise them. They don’t experience ‘happiness’ or ‘sadnees’ the way human do, but they can certainly be given a lovely life including exercise that given some of the horses I’ve seen being ridden I find impossible to believe they are in discomfort or pain. They could simply dump the rider and leg it!! X


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## Oreo&Amy (7 July 2022)

KittenInTheTree said:



			Did you...did you _seriously_ just imply that humans are better at managing the planet than literal _nature_ is?!

We're nothing but a tiny little smear on the grand scheme of evolution, darling. We don't matter a whit. The planet was here long before us, and it will endure long after we're gone. The best we can hope for is that we don't render it incompatible with biological life as we know it in the interim. And even if we do, it's a living planet. It will go on. Eventually, new species will rise from the ashes of our incompetence and inherit everything. Because that is what nature _does_.
		
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I totally agree; it was simply a metaphor to illustrate the point x


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## Oreo&Amy (7 July 2022)

Lacuna said:



			I don't have much truck with PETA ever since I heard how many animals they euthanise every year at their 'rescue' centres. Their ideal world view contains no animals bred for food (which I can somewhat understand from an ethical point of view) but also no companion animals - to me that would be quite a lonely, sterile world with no dogs/cats etc to share it with
		
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Quite….


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## Smoky 2022 (7 July 2022)

I think horse riding will be banned not anytime soon but in next 100 years people will stop riding horses . I think because the lack of interest in future generation  and of future technology and the lack of land will stop the equestrian sport so people will have no problem banning it . I don’t agree with PETA but the amount of scandals isn’t helping the sport.


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## SibeliusMB (7 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			But they don’t want to ban horseriding, just eventing. That’s what I find almost most biazarre….plus they are all animals, you cannot anthromorohise them. They don’t experience ‘happiness’ or ‘sadnees’ the way human do, but they can certainly be given a lovely life including exercise that given some of the horses I’ve seen being ridden I find impossible to believe they are in discomfort or pain. They could simply dump the rider and leg it!! X
		
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Since you've made multiple posts now about PeTA let me please emphasize for you: they absolutely do want to ban all horse riding.  

All human uses of animals, period, in fact. 

They're just smart enough to know they can't demand that right now in today's environment.  What they can do, though, is target certain activities that seem like softer targets that have more public controversy surrounding them: racing, carriage horses, and now eventing.  

Animal rights activists can publicly campaign against such activities and use previous accidents and public perception against them. This further turns the public perception to a negative one. Animal rights groups are savvy with social media.  Social media itself is a huge weapon and is already being used to perpetuate a negative image or incorrect assumptions about horse sports in general.  I saw lots of comments regarding the dressage at the Tokyo Olympics and ignorant Facebook users saying how dressage is so cruel because "they're trained with chains and electric cattle prods". 😵‍💫

So yes...animal rights groups would LOVE to ultimately ban all horse sports snd uses of horses, but have to systematically attack the controversial ones first. It's the slippery slope theory, and why we equestrians must hold one another accountable and be the best advocates for our horses by calling out other equestrians who are doing things wrong. 


Also, I think you ought to consider giving horses' emotional intelligence a little more credit.  People shouldn't anthromorohise, yes, but more enlightening information is coming out regarding horses' social norms, their capacity to recognize emotions in humans, and their enormous capacity to sense what is happening with those around them.  I think we humans are only just starting to realize what horses do or do not feel. 
 All the more reason to know better and do better by them.

Given the current social media environment, any horse person who is unwilling to reconsider what they do and do not know about horses and is unwilling to potentially evolve their training methods in coming years really ought to just buy a bicycle.


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## minesadouble (7 July 2022)

I've kept and retired quite a few horses now, both my own and children's ponies. What I can say, from my own observations, is that they are happier when they have a job.
I'm not saying retired horses are unhappy as such, but I am definitely of the opinion that when they are in regular work they seem to have an overall happier demeanor.


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## HashRouge (7 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			But they don’t want to ban horseriding, just eventing.
		
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But the title of the thread that _you _started is literally "PETA trying to ban horse riding".

Personally, I'm more aerated about the many, many people who mistreat horses, whether knowingly or otherwise, than I am about PETA, who are at least interested in promoting animal welfare.


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## teapot (7 July 2022)

shortstuff99 said:



			I think as long as racing still happens the rest will (as you can't exactly ban riding or horse sports but allow racing).

Seeing the crowds recently at racing meets and the money in it I can't see it being banned anytime soon.

I also feel it would be hard to ban horse riding while still having intensive animal farming and eating meat.
		
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https://www.racingpost.com/news/wer...-coral-eclipse-day-sees-attendance-low/565988  - would be interested to know if other courses are experiencing the same thing, and why.


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## ycbm (7 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			they are all animals, you cannot anthromorohise them. They don’t experience ‘happiness’ or ‘sadnees’ the way human do,
		
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They don't express it the same way,  but we don't yet know what emotions they really feel.  Until recently,  it was believed that goldfish had a memory of 5 seconds.  Now,  it is proven that goldfish can be trained to navigate a water tank through an obstacle course.  There are depths to animal emotion and cognitive ability that we don't yet understand.
.


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## SO1 (8 July 2022)

I think a lot about quality of life for horses. Most of a myriad of problems people have with them are man made.

Look at ulcers and laminitis for example both of which can be caused by inappropriate feeding. Ulcers also caused by stress.  

How many horses have the five freedoms? What level of discomfort is acceptable. 

We say we love our horses but is riding them kind is the way we keep them kind. 

I have been thinking about my pony and his quality of life recently as he has had to go on a special diet after a gastric impaction. He also has a glandular ulcer was I responsible for that by the choices I made when he had no turnout for nearly 9 months due to rehabing a tendon injury. 

Are we kidding ourselves by saying we love our horses when what we actually love is riding. Most people buy a horse to ride not because they love horses as pets. 

I can see why Peta may think riding and keeping horses may not be kind to them. What % of the equine population live stress free lives which would I presume be living out in stable herds on suitable pasture and not being forced to do anything they don't want to do.


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## Oreo&Amy (8 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			Quite….
		
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ycbm said:



			They don't express it the same way,  but we don't yet know what emotions they really feel.  Until recently,  it was believed that goldfish had a memory of 5 seconds.  Now,  it is proven that goldfish can be trained to navigate a water tank through an obstacle course.  There are depths to animal emotion and cognitive ability that we don't yet under
		
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## Oreo&Amy (8 July 2022)

True, but happiness and sadnesss are literally human concepts that mean nothing to animals, in the same way as anger, frustration, anxiety etc


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## Oreo&Amy (8 July 2022)

SibeliusMB said:



			Since you've made multiple posts now about PeTA let me please emphasize for you: they absolutely do want to ban all horse riding. 

All human uses of animals, period, in fact.

They're just smart enough to know they can't demand that right now in today's environment.  What they can do, though, is target certain activities that seem like softer targets that have more public controversy surrounding them: racing, carriage horses, and now eventing. 

Animal rights activists can publicly campaign against such activities and use previous accidents and public perception against them. This further turns the public perception to a negative one. Animal rights groups are savvy with social media.  Social media itself is a huge weapon and is already being used to perpetuate a negative image or incorrect assumptions about horse sports in general.  I saw lots of comments regarding the dressage at the Tokyo Olympics and ignorant Facebook users saying how dressage is so cruel because "they're trained with chains and electric cattle prods". 😵‍💫

So yes...animal rights groups would LOVE to ultimately ban all horse sports snd uses of horses, but have to systematically attack the controversial ones first. It's the slippery slope theory, and why we equestrians must hold one another accountable and be the best advocates for our horses by calling out other equestrians who are doing things wrong.


Also, I think you ought to consider giving horses' emotional intelligence a little more credit.  People shouldn't anthromorohise, yes, but more enlightening information is coming out regarding horses' social norms, their capacity to recognize emotions in humans, and their enormous capacity to sense what is happening with those around them.  I think we humans are only just starting to realize what horses do or do not feel.
All the more reason to know better and do better by them.

Given the current social media environment, any horse person who is unwilling to reconsider what they do and do not know about horses and is unwilling to potentially evolve their training methods in coming years really ought to just buy a bicycle.
		
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I agree re PETA and I really don’t underestimate animalian emotional intelligence; in fact I studied it in my third year of uni! But your point re PETA and social media is a very good point. Anyway that’s me done on the subject I can take a hint 😂😂😂


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## ycbm (8 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			True, but happiness and sadnesss are literally human concepts that mean nothing to animals, in the same way as anger, frustration, anxiety etc
		
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The words mean nothing to animals.  The emotions are created by chemical changes in the brain and animals have the same chemicals sloshing around as humans do.  The fact that they don't express their emotions as obviously as humans do doesn't mean they don't feel them.  

Did you know that behavioural difficulties in horses (and cats and dogs) are now being treated with SSRI antidepressants developed for humans?  
.


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## sbloom (8 July 2022)

I love the shift I see on here.  Doing the Gillian Higgins course for saddle fitters over 4 years ago made me realise we are highly unlikely to still be riding in 100 years time.  My professional outlook is that we need to make our ridden horses lives a LOT better and I try and live my entire professional life that way but it's not easy trying to communicate this to some customers that are still stuck with old fashioned ways of seeing horses as our tools.  Most are on some kind of more progressive journey thank goodness..   I do not know whether I'll ever have a horse again.


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## tristar (8 July 2022)

its a change needed to view what we do and how we do it, including mainly how we communicate to horses what it is we are asking, and how we perceive what they feel and how working them is to their benefit as well as our own


basically, huge improvements in training, less  set in stone exploratory ways of achieving a balanced, happy to work horse who can stay sound and reach their full potential, well not even potential, to find things in horses that are not obvious at the start, or even create qualities that make riding pleasurable


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## paddy555 (8 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			True, but happiness and sadnesss are literally human concepts that mean nothing to animals, in the same way as anger, frustration, anxiety etc
		
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yet in your opening post you knew him well enough to know he is happy yet  happiness is a human concept meaning nothing to animals. So how can he be happy. 

Anxiety is by far from being a human concept. Clearly from their problems there are a lot of anxious dogs and horses referred to on  this forum.


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## Oreo&Amy (9 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			The words mean nothing to animals.  The emotions are created by chemical changes in the brain and animals have the same chemicals sloshing around as humans do.  The fact that they don't express their emotions as obviously as humans do doesn't mean they don't feel them.

Did you know that behavioural difficulties in horses (and cats and dogs) are now being treated with SSRI antidepressants developed for humans?
.
		
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I mean the way as as humans se


paddy555 said:



			yet in your opening post you knew him well enough to know he is happy yet  happiness is a human concept meaning nothing to animals. So how can he be happy.

Anxiety is by far from being a human concept. Clearly from their problems there are a lot of anxious dogs and horses referred to on  this forum.
		
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I just mean the parameters of the emotions are decided by us,and given names, whereas in reality they are a fluid spectrum- an animal could be content but nudging towards anxiety, excited but moving towards calm etc and always bearing in mind that we have created these names to make sense of the range of behaviours all mammals exhibit…I’m probably not explaining very well, it’s been years since I studied animal behaviour 🙈😂


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## Wishfilly (9 July 2022)

I do think we are on a progressive journey with horses, and I hope people are able to find ways to keep horses that are increasingly ethical. 

Unfortunately, with the cost of living crisis, in the UK at least, I'm not sure that trend will continue. I actually think the way things are going, in 100 years, we might see horses used more for "work" than they are now. 

I do think there are lots of ethical questions to be asked about how we interact with horses, for sure. But I think horse riding will only end up banned, or a thing of the past if we no long have viable land to keep horses, so most of the population no longer has access to them at all.


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## Oreo&Amy (10 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			How would that matter for horses?   If it meant I could get the terrible images of how horses and donkeys are abused in working environments in the third world, systematic abuse of TWH horses in the US,  long distance racers legs snapping in the desert,  out of my mind,  I'd happily never see a horse again.
.
		
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But again isn’t the answer to improve conditions for them as opposed to just saying they shouldn’t be able to continue to exist? Every species has an instinct for survival and in the case of horses that instinct comes in the form of cooperation with humans. Also I know a vet who lectured to us on my equine physio course who worked out in the Middle East helping these donkeys etc. She said it drove her crazy as all the tourists would abuse any locals they saw with a mule or donkey, even though according to her, 95% are incredibly well kept and looked after and are a source of pride for their owners who love to see them healthy- they were viewed as so important and a much loved member of the family. It’s wrong to assume that in a developing country all these donkeys and mules are suffering. She also added that most horses in the west are actually obese. I believe those adverts are in some ways another example of patronising different cultures we know little about, and assuming all the animals they have must be victims. Those adverts are very manipulative by adding sad music, picking a donkey that is sickly (usually one which the owner has brought for care at the free Red Cross vets) and the narrative of the advert is designed to create guilt and paint a one sided picture to make money. I’m suspicious of those big charities, such a huge portion of their profits goes on marketing, advertising and PR. Anyway I think I’ll leave this convo for now. Have a great day


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## ycbm (10 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			But again isn’t the answer to improve conditions for them as opposed to just saying they shouldn’t be able to continue to exist?
		
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I didn't say that!  




			It’s wrong to assume that in a developing country all .... donkeys and mules are suffering.
		
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or that!


My response was only in response to you saying that it would be a bad thing if no horses existed.  I replied that I didn't see how that would matter to the horses, only the humans who want them around. Dodos don't sit crying that they are extinct and not available to be shot any more.  
.


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## Oreo&Amy (10 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			I didn't say that! 



or that!


My response was only in response to you saying that it would be a bad thing if no horses existed.  I replied that I didn't see how that would matter to the horses, only the humans who want them around. Dodos don't sit crying that they are extinct and not available to be shot any more. 
.
		
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But that would imply taking vital components out of ecosystems and would result in a trophic cascade; eg a case where due to a small change in sea temp meant a massive increase in algae in the sea. It blocked light and therefore fish died or stopped coming. It finished with Killer Whales being extinct from the area. I mean the animal may not be conscious it’s gone extinct but if we follow that logic, we accept all species die out including ourselves. Allowing species to die out because they ‘won’t mind’ is a bit absurd. It means all conservation is redundant. I wasn’t saying you said those things, we aren’t in a debate (I hope!) they were just observations  I think I’m done with the PETA discussion so that’s me out!!


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## Arzada (10 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			Also I know a vet who lectured to us on my equine physio course who worked out in the Middle East helping these donkeys etc. She said it drove her crazy *as all the tourists would abuse any locals they saw with a mule or donkey*, even though according to her, 95% are incredibly well kept and looked after and are a source of pride for their owners who love to see them healthy
		
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*All *the tourists. Really? And you believed them?


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## Arzada (10 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			... we accept all species die out including ourselves.
		
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It would be best if we go first. Karma for wrecking the planet and of huge benefit to the remaining species


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## paddy555 (10 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			But again isn’t the answer to improve conditions for them as opposed to just saying they shouldn’t be able to continue to exist? Every species has an instinct for survival and in the case of horses that instinct comes in the form of cooperation with humans. Also I know a vet who lectured to us on my equine physio course who worked out in the Middle East helping these donkeys etc. She said it drove her crazy as all the tourists would abuse any locals they saw with a mule or donkey, even though according to her, 95% are incredibly well kept and looked after and are a source of pride for their owners who love to see them healthy- they were viewed as so important and a much loved member of the family. It’s wrong to assume that in a developing country all these donkeys and mules are suffering. She also added that most horses in the west are actually obese. I believe those adverts are in some ways another example of patronising different cultures we know little about, and assuming all the animals they have must be victims. Those adverts are very manipulative by adding sad music, picking a donkey that is sickly (usually one which the owner has brought for care at the free Red Cross vets) and the narrative of the advert is designed to create guilt and paint a one sided picture to make money. I’m suspicious of those big charities, such a huge portion of their profits goes on marketing, advertising and PR. Anyway I think I’ll leave this convo for now. Have a great day 

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I cannot see that the horse's instinct for survival comes in the form of cooperation with humans. He cooperates because largely he has little choice. If he does object then he is PTS. On here it is my horse exhibits poor behaviour that stops me riding him shall I PTS. On poorer cultures it is we can't afford to keep the horse if he can't work. 

How do we improve conditions? in the rich UK we have insufficient land for the number of horses, yards are being built on, horses are flogging their way around surfaces that don't help their joints, plodding around riding schools with novices who can't get them to move, they are stabled far too long, many of their feet are poor which doesn't help their movement and skeleton, there are endless, tendons, suspensories etc being damaged, they are forced to engage in sports pushing them beyond their  limits, forced to live in tiny single use paddocks, a fair number lack freedom and socialisation.  
That is a fair amount to improve as many don't even see problems. 
In 3rd world countries some of the equine owners are so poor they cannot afford to feed their family let alone the working donkey or horse 
Of course some of the appeals for donations are heartbreaking but in reality some of the owners simply cannot afford care for their animals. I'm sure some are much loved but if there is no money their care is wanting.


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## paddy555 (10 July 2022)

Arzada said:



			It would be best if we go first. Karma for wrecking the planet and of huge benefit to the remaining species
		
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yes I'm not sure we would be missed! life would carry on pretty well without the damage we cause.


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## ycbm (10 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			we aren’t in a debate
		
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Beggared if I know what else you think we're doing 🤣


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## Miss_Millie (10 July 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I cannot see that the horse's instinct for survival comes in the form of cooperation with humans. He cooperates because largely he has little choice. If he does object then he is PTS. On here it is my horse exhibits poor behaviour that stops me riding him shall I PTS. On poorer cultures it is we can't afford to keep the horse if he can't work.

*How do we improve conditions? in the rich UK we have insufficient land for the number of horses, yards are being built on, horses are flogging their way around surfaces that don't help their joints, plodding around riding schools with novices who can't get them to move, they are stabled far too long, many of their feet are poor which doesn't help their movement and skeleton, there are endless, tendons, suspensories etc being damaged, they are forced to engage in sports pushing them beyond their  limits, forced to live in tiny single use paddocks, a fair number lack freedom and socialisation.
*
That is a fair amount to improve as many don't even see problems.
In 3rd world countries some of the equine owners are so poor they cannot afford to feed their family let alone the working donkey or horse
Of course some of the appeals for donations are heartbreaking but in reality some of the owners simply cannot afford care for their animals. I'm sure some are much loved but if there is no money their care is wanting.
		
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This x 10. I think that the vast majority of horse owners don't even understand basic equine behaviour and what horses are trying to tell us through their body language. I truly believe that a huge proportion of people see their horses as 'owing them' because they're 'spoiled' by err....being over-rugged and having the latest saddle pad  I do think that the majority of people who own horses in first world countries, do so because they enjoy _riding _above all else. This is why so many 20-something year olds are being sold with a description along the lines of 'He's my heart horse, it breaks my heart but he's a companion only and I don't have the time for him' 

Anyhoo, judgemental rant over. I know that there are a lot of people who truly try to do right by their horses, even under less than perfect circumstances. But I also see the owner/rider's ego getting in the way of that a lot too.


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## Wishfilly (10 July 2022)

Miss_Millie said:



			This x 10. I think that the vast majority of horse owners don't even understand basic equine behaviour and what horses are trying to tell us through their body language. I truly believe that a huge proportion of people see their horses as 'owing them' because they're 'spoiled' by err....being over-rugged and having the latest saddle pad  I do think that the majority of people who own horses in first world countries, do so because they enjoy _riding _above all else. This is why so many 20-something year olds are being sold with a description along the lines of 'He's my heart horse, it breaks my heart but he's a companion only and I don't have the time for him' 

Anyhoo, judgemental rant over. I know that there are a lot of people who truly try to do right by their horses, even under less than perfect circumstances. But I also see the owner/rider's ego getting in the way of that a lot too.
		
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Or spoilt as in fed a lot of hard feed and treats, with an owner who isn't willing to make the hard choices when they end up overweight.


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## Oreo&Amy (11 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			Beggared if I know what else you think we're doing 🤣
		
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Lol


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## Oreo&Amy (11 July 2022)

Arzada said:



			It would be best if we go first. Karma for wrecking the planet and of huge benefit to the remaining species
		
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That could be the case in that logic we abandon all conservation attempts and just watch the whole thing burn! Quite a nihilistic view, is there no hope for the world? I like to think so, maybe I’m too idealistic 😬


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## Oreo&Amy (11 July 2022)

Arzada said:



*All *the tourists. Really? And you believed them?
		
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I’m paraphrasing- it was in 2009!! I doubt every second hand comment on here is quoted word for word. Anyway as I keep saying but not doing I’m out of this discussion (and yes I would say discussion not debate ie it’s not about a winner at the end!).


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## Arzada (11 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			I’m paraphrasing- it was in 2009!! I doubt every second hand comment on here is quoted word for word.
		
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I think it's worth being careful with saying things like this eg '*all *horse riders are complete plonkers'  Of course it's not true but it gives ammunition to the haters who then feel justified in behaving in unpleasant ways to said horse riders out on the road because 'you' have justified their behaviour by reinforcing their view that '*all* horse riders are plonkers'.


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## sakura (11 July 2022)

PETA have a point, and I suspect that is the way horse sports, and then horse riding, is going. I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing


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## Oreo&Amy (12 July 2022)

Arzada said:



			I think it's worth being careful with saying things like this eg '*all *horse riders are complete plonkers'  Of course it's not true but it gives ammunition to the haters who then feel justified in behaving in unpleasant ways to said horse riders out on the road because 'you' have justified their behaviour by reinforcing their view that '*all* horse riders are plonkers'.
		
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Eh? When did I say horse riders were plonkers?! I am a horserider!! Confused 🫤


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## Oreo&Amy (12 July 2022)

Arzada said:



			I think it's worth being careful with saying things like this eg '*all *horse riders are complete plonkers'  Of course it's not true but it gives ammunition to the haters who then feel justified in behaving in unpleasant ways to said horse riders out on the road because 'you' have justified their behaviour by reinforcing their view that '*all* horse riders are plonkers'.
		
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I think I may have lost track of this discussion to be fair 😂


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## sakura (12 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			True, but happiness and sadnesss are literally human concepts that mean nothing to animals, in the same way as anger, frustration, anxiety etc
		
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Did you just not word this well or do you genuinely believe that happiness and sadness mean "nothing" to animals?


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## AntiPuck (12 July 2022)

No specific opinions on PETA as an organisation, but I absolutely think they have a point. It's naïve not to understand that the vast majority of what humans do with/for animals is exploitation for our benefit, not for theirs.

The reason that the worst thing you can do for the planet/environment/other animals is to create more humans is because we are so incredibly destructive as a species.

I walk around day-to-day in a fug of cognitive dissonance on the subject just like everyone else, because I also need to mentally cope with existence, but let's not kid ourselves completely.


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## Oreo&Amy (12 July 2022)

Indiangel said:



			Did you just not word this well or do you genuinely believe that happiness and sadness mean "nothing" to animals?
		
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I mean in the sense that apart from dolphins, which science has proven recognise themselves as an an ‘I’d’ ie Greek for ego (basically having a sense of consciousness) other animals of course experience reactions to things but have no concept of themselves in relation to the rest of existence, hence cannot experience grief, anxiety in the same sense as humans and a minority of other animals do


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## ycbm (12 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			I mean in the sense that apart from dolphins, which science has proven recognise themselves as an an ‘I’d’ ie Greek for ego (basically having a sense of consciousness) other animals of course experience reactions to things but have no concept of themselves in relation to the rest of existence, hence cannot experience grief, anxiety in the same sense as humans and a minority of other animals do
		
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I feel that thinking is very out of date.  Just because elephants and dolphins recognise in a mirror that they have a white dot painted on their forehead (which is how I've read that they test "id")  does not mean that an animal who can't do that does not feel emotions like grief and anxiety like humans can. I'd argue very strongly that horses certainly do feel anxiety and almost certainly can feel grief. I would struggle to believe that my cats have no concept of themselves in relation to the rest of existence,  too.
.


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## paddy555 (12 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			I mean in the sense that apart from dolphins, which science has proven recognise themselves as an an ‘I’d’ ie Greek for ego (basically having a sense of consciousness) other animals of course experience reactions to things but have no concept of themselves in relation to the rest of existence, hence cannot experience grief, anxiety in the same sense as humans and a minority of other animals do
		
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why do  you think they cannot experience grief. What about grief at the death of their fieldmate?


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## BBP (13 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



_Horses deserve to live their lives as nature intended. We can connect with horses in our care and have a meaningful and mutually beneficial relationship with these sensitive animals without climbing on top of them._

What rot!  And if a rule came into force 'banning horse riding' (not that it ever would) I wonder what would happen to all the horses unable to be ridden anymore?? Millions PTS I would imagine, not every horse owner is prepared to keep an animal that can't be ridden.

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Why is this rot? I can’t see a single part of this sentence that is incorrect. They do deserve to live as close to nature as possible. That’s not to say with the land etc we have available that is possible, but don’t they deserve it?

And we CAN connect with horses in our care and have a mutually beneficial relationship without ever sitting on them. We just choose not to.

I see a lot of posts about being desperate to ride and not being happy if the horse isn’t rideable, and I do completely understand, you feel bereft for a while of something that was a huge part of your life. But my mindset now is totally different to that. I think there is so much joy to be had from having an unridden horse. I bought my youngster in the full knowledge (knowing the fragility of horses!) that I may never ride him, and being okay with that, because the relationship we have is so much more than the prospect of riding.

My random thought of the day - it’s a bit like thinking that sex is the most important part of a relationship. If one day your partner had an accident and was told they can’t have sex ever again, would you (not you as in Birker, I’m talking everyone) bin them off and look for a person that could? Or would you look at that relationship and all the incredible facets of it, the things you can do together that are joyful and happy and meaningful?  Ok so maybe that’s a weird analogy, but I guess I mean I love my horses for who they are, not what they can do for me (edit, this may not be fully true as even unridden they still benefit me, would I still love them so much if they didn’t want to spend a single second in my presence, I don’t know)
I hear the argument of ‘people can’t afford to keep non ridden horses’ and I think, well they can, it costs no more than a ridden one, we just choose to prioritise riding.

Don’t get me wrong , I love riding, but I think of all the times when I may have pulled, kicked, wobbled, bounced, whatever, and it does make me feel guilty for what they go through.


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## CanteringCarrot (13 July 2022)

BBP said:



			Why is this rot? I can’t see a single part of this sentence that is incorrect. They do deserve to live as close to nature as possible. That’s not to say with the land etc we have available that is possible, but don’t they deserve it?

And we CAN connect with horses in our care and have a mutually beneficial relationship without ever sitting on them. We just choose not to.

I see a lot of posts about being desperate to ride and not being happy if the horse isn’t rideable, and I do completely understand, you feel bereft for a while of something that was a huge part of your life. But my mindset now is totally different to that. I think there is so much joy to be had from having an unridden horse. I bought my youngster in the full knowledge (knowing the fragility of horses!) that I may never ride him, and being okay with that, because the relationship we have is so much more than the prospect of riding.

My random thought of the day - it’s a bit like thinking that sex is the most important part of a relationship. If one day your partner had an accident and was told they can’t have sex ever again, would you (not you as in Birker, I’m talking everyone) bin them off and look for a person that could? Or would you look at that relationship and all the incredible facets of it, the things you can do together that are joyful and happy and meaningful?  Ok so maybe that’s a weird analogy, but I guess I mean I love my horses for who they are, not what they can do for me (edit, this may not be fully true as even unridden they still benefit me, would I still love them so much if they didn’t want to spend a single second in my presence, I don’t know)
I hear the argument of ‘people can’t afford to keep non ridden horses’ and I think, well they can, it costs no more than a ridden one, we just choose to prioritise riding.

Don’t get me wrong , I love riding, but I think of all the times when I may have pulled, kicked, wobbled, bounced, whatever, and it does make me feel guilty for what they go through.
		
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Yesss. My thoughts exactly. Great post.


I do find that a lot of people don't know how or don't have the interest in connecting to their horse in other ways. Some horses are certainly more oriented toward people, which makes things easier, but I've had great fun and learning with my horse from the ground. Sure I missed riding when I couldn't do it, but I got more creative in other ways. He's such a good little pet and he's a joy to have around, ridden or not. I view riding him as a great privilege, and not a right. If he were to become unrideable I still owe it to him to provide him with a nice and suitable life with me. As with many things, riding is a selfish endeavor.


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## Birker2020 (13 July 2022)

BBP said:



			Why is this rot? I can’t see a single part of this sentence that is incorrect. They do deserve to live as close to nature as possible. That’s not to say with the land etc we have available that is possible, but don’t they deserve it?

And we CAN connect with horses in our care and have a mutually beneficial relationship without ever sitting on them. We just choose not to.


I hear the argument of ‘people can’t afford to keep non ridden horses’ and I think, well they can, it costs no more than a ridden one, we just choose to prioritise riding.

Don’t get me wrong , I love riding, but I think of all the times when I may have pulled, kicked, wobbled, bounced, whatever, and it does make me feel guilty for what they go through.
		
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Yes I've been there and bought the t-shirt with my past horse who I couldn't do anything decent with for the past four years of her life and with the one that I've sat on 15 times max since buying it last October, being a one horse owner it was incredibly sad but exciting at the same time having the chance to start all over again.  I am perfectly aware that people sometimes have to have horses they can't ride.  If you can keep a horse in retirement and be happy seeing all your friends going off and having fun then fair enough.  I did it because my old horse who I'd had nearly two decades owed me nothing and I loved her and would have kept her forever in retirement if I could have but my new horse, well I don't feel the same way. Its been a huge disappointment, one that I can't put across in words, as words are not sufficient for how I am feeling.

And it would be ridiculous to think that people who have horses to compete (and in some cases do it for a livelihood) would be happy to keep all their horses in retirement for the rest of their lives.  It just wouldn't happen with the vast majority.

I think you will find that come this winter the realisation will be that a lot of folks are going to have to sell their horses as they won't be able to afford to keep them with the rising cost of living and if a blanket ban came across that no one could ride a horse again then there would be thousands, millions that would be pts.  That's the reality.  But its all hyperthetical anyway as it would never happen.


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## CanteringCarrot (13 July 2022)

Edit: never mind. Not worth it. Walking away now.


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## Birker2020 (13 July 2022)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Edit: never mind. Not worth it. Walking away now.
		
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I'm not trying to argue with you, just giving my point of view.


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## BBP (13 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Yes I've been there and bought the t-shirt with my past horse who I couldn't do anything decent with for the past four years of her life and with the one that I've sat on 15 times max since buying it last October, being a one horse owner it was incredibly sad but exciting at the same time having the chance to start all over again.  I am perfectly aware that people sometimes have to have horses they can't ride.  If you can keep a horse in retirement and be happy seeing all your friends going off and having fun then fair enough.  I did it because my old horse who I'd had nearly two decades owed me nothing and I loved her and would have kept her forever in retirement if I could have but my new horse, well I don't feel the same way. Its been a huge disappointment, one that I can't put across in words, as words are not sufficient for how I am feeling.

And it would be ridiculous to think that people who have horses to compete (and in some cases do it for a livelihood) would be happy to keep all their horses in retirement for the rest of their lives.  It just wouldn't happen with the vast majority.

I think you will find that come this winter the realisation will be that a lot of folks are going to have to sell their horses as they won't be able to afford to keep them with the rising cost of living and if a blanket ban came across that no one could ride a horse again then there would be thousands, millions that would be pts.  That's the reality.  But its all hyperthetical anyway as it would never happen.
		
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I totally agree that cost of living may mean that people can’t afford to keep a horse. My point was that a horse doesn’t suddenly become unaffordable just because it becomes unrideable (well, barring the vets bills, which you and I are both sadly very familiar with!), the other costs don’t change. So that aspect is based on what the human values.

You say your old one owed you nothing, but for me my new one also owes me nothing. He’s 2 years old, he didn’t ask to be bred or bought, or transported across the sea to a place where everyone has a funny accent (imagine what bbp must sound like, Spanish x Welsh living in England 😄), he didn’t ask for me to have set expectations of what he should be used for or good at. He’s just a horse. It’s me that owes him as I’m the one that bought him.

Im absolutely not saying that my outlook is right and yours is wrong, or that you are wrong to be disappointed with how things have worked out with your lovely boy. I do honestly get it because I have felt it before. But it’s sad that if people couldn’t compete that they would have their horse put to sleep and shows me that it’s not love of the horse as an individual that is at the root of much riding. I’ve changed a bit. I cried when my new one ruptured his tendon, but for me it was more about the prospect of losing him as a person rather than losing our ridden future together. I’m not holier than thou at all, I think I’ve just been through so much with bbp that my mindset has adapted.

I suppose what I was trying to say is that I don’t think the bit you quoted was ethically incorrect  but it lacks the balance of a real world situation and they would be better putting their energy towards trying to improve welfare than banning riding.


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## sakura (13 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			I mean in the sense that apart from dolphins, which science has proven recognise themselves as an an ‘I’d’ ie Greek for ego (basically having a sense of consciousness) other animals of course experience reactions to things but have no concept of themselves in relation to the rest of existence, hence cannot experience grief, anxiety in the same sense as humans and a minority of other animals do
		
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That's just not correct though. There are an increasing amount of animals who's emotional "intelligence" is far beyond what humans initially thought them capable of, including but not limited to; cetaceans, pigs, birds, elephants, octopus, dogs, primates, rodents etc etc etc the list truly goes on

Humans can only measure based on our own understanding of our own emotions. It's incredibly limited to think that if we haven't yet devised a way to measure something as complicated as emotion in our own species let alone for others, that they therefore do not feel or experience them in a way comparable or beyond our own.

What's that quote? "If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."


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## milliepops (13 July 2022)

agree with much of what you've said BBP.  I also think you can agree with the statement that started this flurry of posts and also enjoy riding. Valuing the horse for the horse's sake is not incompatible with also wanting to ride. I like riding, i keep horses primarily to ride (despite my ratio of ridden v non ridden ones being totally out of whack!) but I also agree with the statement that they deserve a good natural type of life and that i can connect with them without riding. Just so happens that for about an hour or so 5 days a week i ride one of them as well. 

I feel fortunate to be able to keep my non ridden ones and i get a huge amount of pleasure from them, i would say we have a great connection and they seem to seek out my company so that's good enough for me on that front.   

Like you say, they don't owe me, i owe them.  
If i just had one livery space and wasn't able to use our field i would feel conflicted about keeping any of the non ridden ones, *not* because i wouldn't want to keep the horse but it would have to be a pretty special livery to feel like i was ticking the boxes for them. I sort of see my livery spaces as a shortish term thing for the ridden period of my horses' lives, when they aren't working any more they don't need to be on a yard for the facilities so they also don't need to be bound by the human-imposed constraints of stabling etc.   I've got one of my oldies on the yard at the moment keeping the loan horse company and i just know she would be happier back at the field, talk about guilt trips :/


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## Birker2020 (13 July 2022)

BBP said:



			I totally agree that cost of living may mean that people can’t afford to keep a horse. My point was that a horse doesn’t suddenly become unaffordable just because it becomes unrideable (well, barring the vets bills, which you and I are both sadly very familiar with!), the other costs don’t change. So that aspect is based on what the human values.

You say your old one owed you nothing, but for me my new one also owes me nothing. He’s 2 years old, he didn’t ask to be bred or bought, or transported across the sea to a place where everyone has a funny accent (imagine what bbp must sound like, Spanish x Welsh living in England 😄), he didn’t ask for me to have set expectations of what he should be used for or good at. He’s just a horse. It’s me that owes him as I’m the one that bought him.

Im absolutely not saying that my outlook is right and yours is wrong, or that you are wrong to be disappointed with how things have worked out with your lovely boy. I do honestly get it because I have felt it before. But it’s sad that if people couldn’t compete that they would have their horse put to sleep and shows me that it’s not love of the horse as an individual that is at the root of much riding. I’ve changed a bit. I cried when my new one ruptured his tendon, but for me it was more about the prospect of losing him as a person rather than losing our ridden future together. I’m not holier than thou at all, I think I’ve just been through so much with bbp that my mindset has adapted.

I suppose what I was trying to say is that I don’t think the bit you quoted was ethically incorrect  but it lacks the balance of a real world situation and they would be better putting their energy towards trying to improve welfare than banning riding.
		
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I get what you are saying about your two year old and I'm so sorry for your bad luck, hopefully he will come good in time.


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## Oreo&Amy (13 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			I feel that thinking is very out of date.  Just because elephants and dolphins recognise in a mirror that they have a white dot painted on their forehead (which is how I've read that they test "id")  does not mean that an animal who can't do that does not feel emotions like grief and anxiety like humans can. I'd argue very strongly that horses certainly do feel anxiety and almost certainly can feel grief. I would struggle to believe that my cats have no concept of themselves in relation to the rest of existence,  too.
.
		
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They use mirrors. I studied marine mammal behaviour and worked as an MMO (marine mammal observer) for the JNCC. The research that this is the case is still being tested and still consistently found to be correct. Dolphins will even ‘commit suicide’ ie deliberately starve themselves of oxygen until they die. I have academic access to all current research and worked with Bruno Diaz in Sardinia. But this is a discussion in my view anyway, and everyone is entitled to their own opinions ! My motto is ‘I disagree with what you say, but I would die for your right to say it’


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## Peglo (13 July 2022)

I would very much argue horses don’t feel grief. After I had my TB put to sleep my haffie was ok until she was taken away to be buried and then for the first time in 18 years of owning her my haffie called for her best friend and was lost for a day or 2 without her. She’s always been very unsociable with horses but she felt that loss and it was heartbreaking to see.


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## BBP (13 July 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I get what you are saying about your two year old and I'm so sorry for your bad luck, hopefully he will come good in time.

However my new horse came with issues which I have now treated (hopefully successfully) and because I've totally lost my confidence on him I am selling him on via sales livery as I do not want to spend the next 10-15 years looking after something I don't want to ride.  I didn't sign up for this and it is bitterly disappointing as I love the horse so much and have formed a bond with him and he is such a character.  But it is doing him no good in a situation which is intolerable for me. He is lucky in so much that he has been given another chance due to veterinary intervention, its just a shame that his didn't happen in his previous home but still.  Believe me, if I had the money and my own land I would keep him forever, its breaking my heart to part with him.

I also know that whilst I cannot secure his future I know that he now has the best chance at a happy life with someone and I am lucky that his issues are not so bad that he cannot be sold.  I was very reassured by my vet saying last week on his lameness reassessment that if he was going to vet this horse (had he not known him and as he saw him at that moment in time) he would have passed him.

With my previous horse I'd have kept Bailey for the next 10 years without riding her, had I been able to but alas her pain wasn't able to be relieved which is why she was pts.  I expect I would have found myself in the same situation as I am now with my new horse finding it hard watching others have fun but at least I would have consoled myself with the fact I had had many years of fun previously with her whereas with present horse I've had nothing.
		
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You sound like a lovely person who is always trying to do the right thing so I hope you didn’t take anything I wrote as a criticism of you.


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## sakura (13 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			They use mirrors. I studied marine mammal behaviour and worked as an MMO (marine mammal observer) for the JNCC. The research that this is the case is still being tested and still consistently found to be correct. Dolphins will even ‘commit suicide’ ie deliberately starve themselves of oxygen until they die. I have academic access to all current research and worked with Bruno Diaz in Sardinia. But this is a discussion in my view anyway, and everyone is entitled to their own opinions ! My motto is ‘I disagree with what you say, but I would die for your right to say it’ 

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Captive orcas are also known to self harm to the point of death, I don't think anyone is disputing that cetaceans across the board are all highly emotional. We're saying that other animals are too, and the absence of measured, peer reviewed papers does not dispute that as a fact. I'm not entirely sure if your argument is that if a being cannot recognise themselves as "themselves", they therefore cannot experience broad and intense personal emotion?

I'm sure many of us have academic and professional experience with a range of animals and we all bring our knowledge to the discussion. Mine lies primarily with non-human primates, and I can assure you that even those species who have not been found to recognise "self" consistently feel emotions.


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## Birker2020 (13 July 2022)

BBP said:



			You sound like a lovely person who is always trying to do the right thing so I hope you didn’t take anything I wrote as a criticism of you.
		
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Thank you for saying that, that's lovely of you to say. 

No I didn't think you were criticising me for one minute, we all have different opinions and there's no right or no wrong way of thinking.   x


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## Birker2020 (13 July 2022)

Indiangel said:



			Captive orcas are also known to self harm to the point of death, I don't think anyone is disputing that cetaceans across the board are all highly emotional.  .
		
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Yes if anyone is in doubt of what you have said there, they should watch Blackfish on Netflix.  Very interesting and thought provoking documentary.


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## smolmaus (13 July 2022)

Peglo said:



			I would very much argue horses don’t feel grief. After I had my TB put to sleep my haffie was ok until she was taken away to be buried and then for the first time in 18 years of owning her my haffie called for her best friend and was lost for a day or 2 without her. She’s always been very unsociable with horses but she felt that loss and it was heartbreaking to see.
		
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Yes, grief is a weird one to say doesn't apply to horses as they have a very obvious, observable grieving process.


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## littleshetland (13 July 2022)

Coming soon I suspect.....a computer programme that is able to translate thoughts and emotions of animals directly onto a screen near you.


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## skinnydipper (13 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			I mean in the sense that apart from dolphins, which science has proven recognise themselves as an an ‘I’d’ ie Greek for ego (basically having a sense of consciousness) other animals of course experience reactions to things but have no concept of themselves in relation to the rest of existence, hence cannot experience grief, anxiety in the same sense as humans and a minority of other animals do
		
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Different animals rely on different senses. Take dogs, for instance, they fail the mirror test but then vision is not their primary sense, but they can identify their own odour.

Dogs are also capable of expressing emotions such as fearfulness, anxiety, elation, anger, etc. and communicate how they are feeling through body language and vocalisation.


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## Smoky 2022 (13 July 2022)

I would disagree that animals don’t have feelings because I can actually read my animals very well and I know when someone is wrong. Yeah horse do feel grief they are animals that stay together in the wild. Op that’s a lame arrangement and is proving PETA point it’s selfish attitude. People need to lose the old way of thinking if we want this sport to survive. Also scientist also say that because when they test on animals that’s cleares there mind and not make them feel bad  because the tests  they do is  extreme animal abuse.


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## theiberianshow (16 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			In the online news I read that PETA is trying to ban horseriding. One quote is ‘If we look honestly at our relationship with horses, we must acknowledge that the decision to take part in horseback riding is made solely by one individual with little benefit to and no input from the other’. Unbelievable.
Just shows how they have no understanding of how good horse owners have a unique bond with their horses and how much their horses love their ‘work’. Some of PETA’s principles are a little more understandable (killing endangered animals for a handbag) but come on. They claim to love animals but clearly have spent zero time around good, caring horse owners. Yes there are bad owners and they should be dealt with. There are also bad parents does that mean we stop procreating the human race? I find this bizarre and not just because I’m a rider who spoils her horse rotten and knows him well enough to know he is happy. Thoughts??
		
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interesting because in the past few days we have been inundated with people on The Iberian Show page accusing us of all sorts - abuse, cruelty, should be banned, being evil etc etc.  Now we have some of the best riders in the world coming to star in our shows which makes it even more offensive, many of them such beautiful gentle riders.  I am responding to them all individually then hiding the comments so people cant see them!


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## Mrs B (16 July 2022)

PETA are one of the minority, shouty, scream-y groups that media outlets go to for the extreme 'other view point' to the norm.

Like the transphobia shouty people and the vegan meat-eaters-are-evil shouty people.

The majority are silent on these issues because they are taken aback by such undeserved vitriol - being generally good, well-meaning individuals who have a brain and can think their way through such thorny issues with a modicum of intelligence and come to their own conclusions, with at least one foot based in reality.


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## LadyGascoyne (16 July 2022)

Mrs B said:



			PETA are one of the minority, shouty, scream-y groups that media outlets go to for the extreme 'other view point' to the norm.

Like the transphobia shouty people and the vegan meat-eaters-are-evil shouty people.

The majority are silent on these issues because they are taken aback by such undeserved vitriol - being generally good, well-meaning individuals who have a brain and can think their way through such thorny issues with a modicum of intelligence and come to their own conclusions, with at least one foot based in reality.
		
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Totally agree

If you disagree with PETA’s views, then the best thing to do is to stop making threads about them. 

Let them fade into irrelevance, where most normal people categorise them anyway.


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## Juniper Jack (17 July 2022)

lynz88 said:



			PETA have lots of weird and whacky stuff that they campaign for.  I frankly find them to be stupidly OTT.  I tend to ignore anything PETA related, personally.  It's like the Bible thumpers...very OTT imo and not worth my energy.  2 years ago a PETA member was protesting the slaughter of animals for meat outside of a slaughterhouse and was killed by a transport truck in Ontario.  She was in the wrong - she was standing in a known blind spot of the truck driver when she was struck yet the outrage from activists was that the truck driver was in the wrong and she was an innocent protestor.

All that said, they do have a slight point however I do notice a change in my horse's attitude after he has worked and I do wonder if exercise releases endorphins for horses like exercise does in people.  Said horse though, is fairly happy to just be a pasture ornament but so are so many people (sofa ornament).
		
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Oh, good, it is so much cooler to be a sofa ornament instead of a couch potato.


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## J&S (17 July 2022)

Oreo&Amy said:



			no input from the other’.
		
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ycbm said:



			horses not consenting?
		
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I think that horses definitely have "input" into their situation and also I think that they do "consent".      I think you particularly see this among top Show jumpers and event horses.   You also see it at the other end of the scale with saintly childrens ponies, or RDA horses and ponies.   

Taking changes to the world, environment  and climate  change into consideration people may yet have to go back to using the horse as transport, then there will be no chance of a horse consenting.  TBH I think most horses and ponies have it pretty good at this moment in time, though I dont  approve of the over topped show horses, knackered polo ponies or of course the poor creatures worked to death abroad.  (to name a few instances). I can see no reasoning in wanting for ban horse riding, in general, for the sake of the horse.


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## moon_and_spoon (20 September 2022)

This post is very interesting. Ever since I got my first horse this has been playing through the back of my mind- Every time I interact with her I wonder if she is really enjoying my company and often feel sick to my stomach about it.
But I continue to ride and do what I do because it's 'normal'. If I didn't say bring her down to ride her, groom her, take her for a walk what would she do? The irrational part of me thinks 'she must get bored' 'she needs her exercise' and whilst I know that she seems a bit duller when left sat in her field for a week I still question the morality of what I'm doing by sitting on her back. The fact that she may be just playing along because she sees no other choice breaks my heart to think about; I love my girl and I honestly just want her to be happy and healthy. 

I'm going to start an experiment tomorrow. Every time she shows the slightest hint of discomfort, uneasiness, displays anything remotely 'naughty' I will stop what I'm doing. I need to know how she really feels before both of us get totally miserable; we'll see just to what extent my horse 'sucks it up' and hopefully over time I can find a way that gives her ultimate choice, whether or not that includes riding.


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## stangs (20 September 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Yes if anyone is in doubt of what you have said there, they should watch Blackfish on Netflix.  Very interesting and thought provoking documentary.
		
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A word of caution to anyone who does choose to watch _Blackfish_: it’s not wrong in raising criticism of captive cetaceans, but it’s also not a particularly reliable source of information (see here). It was designed to be highly emotive, with a blatant narrative, and it does not discuss or even mention any information that opposes this narrative. By all means, watch it but watch it critically.


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## shortstuff99 (20 September 2022)

Still a bit sh*t for the whales though.


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## Caol Ila (21 September 2022)

stangs said:



			A word of caution to anyone who does choose to watch _Blackfish_: it’s not wrong in raising criticism of captive cetaceans, but it’s also not a particularly reliable source of information (see here). It was designed to be highly emotive, with a blatant narrative, and it does not discuss or even mention any information that opposes this narrative. By all means, watch it but watch it critically.
		
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Who wrote that? SeaWorld's lawyers? Because it reads like it doesn't have an agenda at all.  I don't think that unattributed document absolves SeaWorld of the problems associated with keeping orcas in captivity, however hard it tries.


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## sbloom (21 September 2022)

moon_and_spoon said:



			I'm going to start an experiment tomorrow. Every time she shows the slightest hint of discomfort, uneasiness, displays anything remotely 'naughty' I will stop what I'm doing. I need to know how she really feels before both of us get totally miserable; we'll see just to what extent my horse 'sucks it up' and hopefully over time I can find a way that gives her ultimate choice, whether or not that includes riding.
		
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I would follow a structured approach from one of the R+ type trainers, Dorothy Heffernan is one I follow on FB.  I think understanding how to gain consent, how to watch reactions, is critical.


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## stangs (21 September 2022)

Caol Ila said:



			Who wrote that? SeaWorld's lawyers? Because it reads like it doesn't have an agenda at all.  I don't think that unattributed document absolves SeaWorld of the problems associated with keeping orcas in captivity, however hard it tries.
		
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Yes, that was written by SeaWorld and has an agenda, and, yes, it’s difficult to justify the keeping of killer whales in captivity given the serious welfare concerns. I personally believe killer whales should be phased out of captivity. 

My point was just that Blackfish isn’t reliable, hence my comment to watch it critically. It makes some claims which are true; it makes some claims which have no scientific basis (ironically, any research to prove them would likely happen at SeaWorld). It holds a very black-and-white view on keeping killer whales in captivity, feeding the viewer one line of thinking alone, with little discussion of how welfare could feasibly be improved in captivity. Thus, it doesn’t do much to help the orcas or inspire productive debate.

I won’t derail this thread any longer, but I will add that anyone interested in having more than a surface level understanding of this topic is better off reading the literature. There’s lots of it out there, some damming, some less so, allowing one to form a more comprehensive understanding of what captive killer whales go through - based on research, not unverified claims.


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## Caol Ila (21 September 2022)

I don't think SeaWorld is all that credible, either. The film, as I recall, recognised that the current population of captive orcas are stuck there. They can't be released into the wild. It did discuss, or promote discussion, of how the welfare of those captive whales could be improved and argued for ending the breeding program, so there would be no more captive whales.


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## Backtoblack (21 September 2022)

scats said:



			I hate PETA, but they do have a point here.  Horses don’t get much out of it and the vast majority would be just as happy out in a field with their mates.
		
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Agree, however as long as we have a household cavalry and king's troop I think horse riding will continue.


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## Backtoblack (21 September 2022)

moon_and_spoon said:



			This post is very interesting. Ever since I got my first horse this has been playing through the back of my mind- Every time I interact with her I wonder if she is really enjoying my company and often feel sick to my stomach about it.
But I continue to ride and do what I do because it's 'normal'. If I didn't say bring her down to ride her, groom her, take her for a walk what would she do? The irrational part of me thinks 'she must get bored' 'she needs her exercise' and whilst I know that she seems a bit duller when left sat in her field for a week I still question the morality of what I'm doing by sitting on her back. The fact that she may be just playing along because she sees no other choice breaks my heart to think about; I love my girl and I honestly just want her to be happy and healthy.

I'm going to start an experiment tomorrow. Every time she shows the slightest hint of discomfort, uneasiness, displays anything remotely 'naughty' I will stop what I'm doing. I need to know how she really feels before both of us get totally miserable; we'll see just to what extent my horse 'sucks it up' and hopefully over time I can find a way that gives her ultimate choice, whether or not that includes riding.
		
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It would be wonderful if all horse owners and riders were this caring.


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## sakura (22 September 2022)

stangs said:



			It holds a very black-and-white view on keeping killer whales in captivity, feeding the viewer one line of thinking alone, with little discussion of how welfare could feasibly be improved in captivity. Thus, it doesn’t do much to help the orcas or inspire productive debate.
		
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Because there is no way to improve the welfare of captive cetaceans, specifically orca. It IS a black and white matter with no room for debate. You cannot keep them in captivity and the only solution is to phase out via sea sanctuaries such as the one WDC are currently involved in.


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