# Trotting on the road



## debsflo (3 January 2017)

Im currently on a yard for first time in years as i have a young horse so often looking for hacking buddies ,however everyone trots on the road and i have always been told not to overdo trotting other than a few minutes on tarmac or up hills.
Is this normal ,someone is going to trot for the whole hack 1-2 hours to prepare for the eventing season but i am really careful with my horses legs and not sure if im being too precious or things have changed.
Makes it tricky to find someone for a nice hack ,im not opposed to trotting and cantering in the right conditions .


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## FfionWinnie (3 January 2017)

I don't mind trotting mine on the road as they aren't shod. My new horse is currently shod and I don't trot him on the road at all.


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## Sparemare (3 January 2017)

Only to get across a road safely


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## Tyssandi (3 January 2017)

We do trot on road

1] going round the corner prior to entrance of yard as if you walk round your out of vision of the cars coming down the road and entrance just round the bend.  If you go round the bend at a walk and have to stop for on coming vehicle your in grave danger of being wiped out   from behind so we trot as we start to go round left hand bend hands out and cross and cars 99% stop and let us cross


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## dixie (3 January 2017)

I trot on the roads but only for a couple of minutes at a time and then mostly uphill.
Trotting for a whole hour or so is madness, and impossible around me as it is so uphill and downhill.


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## Llee94 (3 January 2017)

I do trot on hacks but, like Dixie, I tend to only do it up hills or on narrow bits of road that I need to get through quickly. I certainly don't trot for any more than a few minutes per hack but I do insist on a marching walk from my horses. 
This has worked fine in getting my event horses fit for eventing when mixed with appropriate schooling and a weekly trip to the gallops.


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## Elf On A Shelf (3 January 2017)

There was a study done that shows that trotting on roads is beneficial if done in small 5minute doses for young horses to harden bones and for horses that have had soft tissue injuries as the concussion causes more blood to flow to the leg and promote healing. Trotting an older or uninjured horse on the road doesn't do anything special. In the long term it is detrimental to joints. Shod or not makes no different.


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## huskydamage (3 January 2017)

I know people don't like it but I can only judge by my own experience trotting my horse about for years (she is whizzy and likes to trot non stop) and the riding where I am is mostly road unfortunately so I don't have alot of choice. She has a bit of hock arthritus now, but she is 24. Never been lame apart from foot absesses. 
 I did ride with people once who cantered on the road but I draw the line there that is too nutty even for me!


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## Firefly9410 (3 January 2017)

On a yard with no school and limited off road hacking I trotted up every hill I could find and at a fair pace too as preparation for hunting. Rides were around 50% trot with the odd canter on a bridleway and the rest walking. Average ride would be one and a half hours twice a week and hunting twice a week too.


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## Amymay (3 January 2017)

I've always trotted on the roads - not for 2 hours (I'd be exhausted &#128559,  but certainly for a decent amount of time.


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## FfionWinnie (3 January 2017)

EKW said:



			There was a study done that shows that trotting on roads is beneficial if done in small 5minute doses for young horses to harden bones and for horses that have had soft tissue injuries as the concussion causes more blood to flow to the leg and promote healing. Trotting an older or uninjured horse on the road doesn't do anything special. In the long term it is detrimental to joints. Shod or not makes no different.
		
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I don't believe it can make no difference. It may not be good for barefooted horses, but it has to be worse for shod horses.


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## gunnergundog (3 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			I don't mind trotting mine on the road as they aren't shod. .
		
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What difference does that make? Read David Marlin.

BAREFOOT horses are at a similar risk from roadwork as shod horse with respect to forces transmitted up the leg (the difference between shod and unshod is in how the force travels through the foot). With our current knowledge, there is no reason to conclude that barefoot horses are at a lower risk of concussive damage from roadwork


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## Micropony (3 January 2017)

We trot on the roads, but only for relatively short stretches, uphill and at a steady pace.


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## gunnergundog (3 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Why?
		
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## gunnergundog (3 January 2017)

double posted


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## Pearlsasinger (3 January 2017)

If you trot in  a sensible manner, not hammering along on the forehand, you should not do your horse any harm. I couldn't trot for an hour, these days though. We did, back in the day when the weather was bad and we couldn't have a lesson at RS.


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## Amicus (3 January 2017)

gunnergundog said:



			What difference does that make? Read David Marlin.

BAREFOOT horses are at a similar risk from roadwork as shod horse with respect to forces transmitted up the leg (the difference between shod and unshod is in how the force travels through the foot). With our current knowledge, there is no reason to conclude that barefoot horses are at a lower risk of concussive damage from roadwork
		
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Would you mind giving the name of the publication/study/writing of David Marlin, his website seems quite interesting but can't find what your referencing. 

I would assume that trotting on the road would be less concussive without shoes as the steel would have a detrimental impact of the hoof shock absorbing role but would be interesting to read anything to the contrary.


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## Auslander (3 January 2017)

Here's Davids article about roadwork https://www.facebook.com/davidmarli...3421046862124/572928736244685/?type=3&theater


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## Boysy (3 January 2017)

I do a lot of roadwork by choice as the lanes round me are all hills so good for fitness, I also have an extensive bridleway network but bizarrely that is mostly flat once you are on an actual route (hills to and from them). My mare does have hock arthritis now (age 18) and so I have reduced her trotting but to be fair she will sometimes pick her own pace and jog along happily. I don't hammer them but a good working trot for a good while up hill or on the flat.

Mine aren't shod but my previous ponies were and I still did the same work, as far as I know there hasn't been any detrimental effect on them, my boys 17 & 13 have no problems and have done the same work as my mare.

To be fair I don't see the difference in trotting on the road or trotting on a sun baked bridleway and my bridleways have been sun baked concrete for the last few summers as has my grass working arena and I still work on them.


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## Passtheshampoo (3 January 2017)

I usually only trot up hills and we have plenty of those. I was hunting yesterday and noticed they do seem to trot on roads probably to prevent hold ups but I wasn't keen when they came to the brow of a hill and carried on trotting down it at a brisk trot the road was quite frosty too.


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## FfionWinnie (3 January 2017)

I've read his article, not sure what you are getting so wound up about gunner because he says practically what I said, perhaps you didn't read his postscript. 

It would be ludicrous to say there is no difference between a metal structure and no metal structure when it comes to concussion.  Of course shod horses will suffer more. Similarly a good angled BF hoof with a nice meaty frog and a heel first landing has got to be the best thing to land on a hard surface with. Are you really going to argue that that is wrong?


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## dollyanna (3 January 2017)

My old girl spent much of her life trotting on roads, broken at 3 she worked as a rag and bone pony for 9 years, heavy road trotting, spent a few years just riding with me then we drove again and used to drive out for 2-3hrs mostly in trot. Lost her at 21yrs to aggressive cancer, she had a touch of arthritis in one back leg as a result of being hit by a car when she was 5/6, and a couple of windgalls that never bothered her but other than that was entirely sound. She was jumping open cross country fences a couple of weeks before she became ill.
Most driving ponies and horses do a lot of roadwork, the majority of those I know have not had a problem with it and work to an old age - certainly comparable to riding horses and ponies I know. 
It goes against my gut feeling to trot heavily but I'm not sure it is any worse than jumping/cantering on hard ground which happens, and my experiences suggest it isn't as detrimental as I think it ought to be.


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## samlf (3 January 2017)

It's a balance of risk usually - I think that working on lots of circles, sharp turns and the such like on a surface is far more likely to cause injury than controlled trotting on the road.

I do fair amounts of trot on the road when the horses are fit, they are barefoot. 

I saw someone share the David Marlin article - I cannot see how he can say the effect on shod and barefoot horses is the same, try driving a car with and without suspension over potholes and tell me there is no difference. Same force, dissipated in a different manner.


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## FfionWinnie (3 January 2017)

samlf said:



			It's a balance of risk usually - I think that working on lots of circles, sharp turns and the such like on a surface is far more likely to cause injury than controlled trotting on the road.

I do fair amounts of trot on the road when the horses are fit, they are barefoot. 

I saw someone share the David Marlin article - I cannot see how he can say the effect on shod and barefoot horses is the same, try driving a car with and without suspension over potholes and tell me there is no difference. Same force, dissipated in a different manner.
		
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Did you see the bit at the end where he contradicts the bit which was quoted earlier in this thread. Can't copy it when I'm on my phone I'm afraid.  I usually think he speaks a lot of sense but he needs to rewrite the middle of that article imo.

Also I agree about surfaces and circles!


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## gunnergundog (3 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			I've read his article, not sure what you are getting so wound up about gunner because he says practically what I said, perhaps you didn't read his postscript. 

It would be ludicrous to say there is no difference between a metal structure and no metal structure when it comes to concussion.  Of course shod horses will suffer more. Similarly a good angled BF hoof with a nice meaty frog and a heel first landing has got to be the best thing to land on a hard surface with. Are you really going to argue that that is wrong?
		
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Bottom line. Just because a horse is barefoot doesn't mean its ok to do hours of roadwork at trot.  Quote Marlin.


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## samlf (3 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Did you see the bit at the end where he contradicts the bit which was quoted earlier in this thread. Can't copy it when I'm on my phone I'm afraid.  I usually think he speaks a lot of sense but he needs to rewrite the middle of that article imo.

Also I agree about surfaces and circles!
		
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Just opened the link - the postscript bit you mean?

Also, thinking about it further if we were to draw parallels with studies in barefoot running in humans (not ideal but as no-one is funding barefoot research...) we perhaps could argue that the forces on a barefoot horse trotting on the roads are lower than shod from the outset as they take shorter strides on harder surfaces. I still dont agree with his postscript point, if a force is applied to a larger area (beefy frog, digital cushion in barefoot horse vs metal shoes peripheral loading) there is less force per square inch therefore less likelihood of injury - yes the TOTAL force is the same, but that is almost irrelevant.

Edit - to help articulate my point visit this link, the difference between force and pressure http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-force-and-vs-pressure/


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## Svapu (3 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			I don't believe it can make no difference. It may not be good for barefooted horses, but it has to be worse for shod horses.
		
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I think the difference is pretty obvious https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REReSZKMnkg


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## popsdosh (3 January 2017)

Roadwork was always considered the best for all hunters and Racehorses. EKW I too saw that study very enlightening it compared injuries in young horses that did roadwork as routine against those that didnt and the conclusion was roadwork actually helped strengthen the bone and particularly in TBs they suffered less fractures in racing than those that didnt


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## FfionWinnie (3 January 2017)

gunnergundog said:



			Bottom line. Just because a horse is barefoot doesn't mean its ok to do hours of roadwork at trot.  Quote Marlin.
		
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I think you'll find that's what I said but you are still picking and choosing the bits you like to try and make your point. Have at look at the video see how that makes you feel. Certainly puts my teeth on edge.


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## criso (3 January 2017)

Probably the case that there is a lack of scientific evidence either way analysing barefoot as a variable.  Our local horsepital was doing a study a while back on the impact of bridleway surfaces using various sensors to analyse the forces.  Local riders was invited to take part but horses had to be shod all round to be eligible.  

What I will say on a horse that was shod and then barefoot is that barefoot he tends more to adapt his stride to different surfaces and offers big trots on smooth tarmac finding it easy to work on.  

I do like to trot up steep hills when I find them but that is shorter bursts as they are limited in length and then followed by an equally steep downward stretch I walk down.


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## FfionWinnie (3 January 2017)

Svapu said:



			I think the difference is pretty obvious https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REReSZKMnkg

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Great (yet horrible) video!


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## Amicus (3 January 2017)

Auslander said:



			Here's Davids article about roadwork https://www.facebook.com/davidmarli...3421046862124/572928736244685/?type=3&theater

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Thanks!

This is his bit on barefoot horses for anyone else interested.

'(4) BAREFOOT HORSES
The presence of shoes does not change the overall/total force on the limb (which is determined by the mass of the horse and the rider) which has to be dissipated by the elastic structures of the limb (tendon, ligament, joint). However metal shoes do cause greater vibration/concussion and detrimentally alter the kinematics of the stride. They also alter how the foot interacts with the ground and how the force is distributed throughout the foot (but not higher). Trotting on a road generates concussion and high peak forces in shod horses. These are lower in barefoot horses. However, a barefoot horse trotting on a road will still experience very high forces compared with say trotting on grass, although these will be less than for a shod horse. Bottom line. Just because a horse is barefoot doesn't mean its ok to do hours of roadwork at trot.'


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## gunnergundog (3 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			I think you'll find that's what I said but you are still picking and choosing the bits you like to try and make your point. e.
		
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gunnergundog said:



			Bottom line. Just because a horse is barefoot doesn't mean its ok to do hours of roadwork at trot.  Quote Marlin.
		
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In which case kindly point me to where you said the same as Marlin.....


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## FfionWinnie (3 January 2017)

Amicus said:



			Thanks!

This is his bit on barefoot horses for anyone else interested.

'(4) BAREFOOT HORSES
 *metal shoes do cause greater vibration/concussion and detrimentally alter the kinematics of the stride*. 

*They also alter how the foot interacts with the ground and how the force is distributed throughout the foot* ...... 

*Trotting on a road generates concussion and high peak forces in shod horses*. 

*These are lower in barefoot horses*.

..... a barefoot horse trotting on a road will still experience very high forces compared with say trotting on grass, ****although these will be less than for a shod horse***..'
		
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Thank you. Just in case you missed it gunner I have highlighted the important parts for you since you've missed them.


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## gunnergundog (3 January 2017)

And just in case you missed it he says: 



The presence of shoes does not change the overall/total force on the limb


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## Kafairia (3 January 2017)

It has worried me (and I think those that have cantered on roads before are nuts! But thats my opinion) so I trot only really to get out of the way as required for traffic,  blind bends (unavoidably unfortunately) and just if I feel like he's getting cold inbetween field canters / gallops. Generally, its no more than 5 minutes per hack at most in short bursts. Marching walk is my preference.

He is shod on all four btw and has previously had an injury of some sort to one of his fores for the record, although has never been lame.

My barefoot has the exact same treatment, and he too has sustained an injury to his fore (fractured somewhere once). Personally I can see the difference between shod ans unshod to be minor, and would treat then the same. It's a solid surface and I know I would prefer to er on the side of caution, and I wouldn't go abouts trotting for too long myself


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## Amicus (3 January 2017)

gunnergundog said:



			And just in case you missed it he says: 



The presence of shoes does not change the overall/total force on the limb
		
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But as far as I can see the surface your working a horse on wouldn't change it either, the mass of the horse and rider is the same on sand/grass/tarmac? Think FFione is talking about concussion rather than force.


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## Fidgety (3 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Roadwork was always considered the best for all hunters and Racehorses. EKW I too saw that study very enlightening it compared injuries in young horses that did roadwork as routine against those that didnt and the conclusion was roadwork actually helped strengthen the bone and particularly in TBs they suffered less fractures in racing than those that didnt
		
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There's plenty of stuff out there on tinterweb regarding impact exercise being good for human bone density, so I can well believe that there's more than a grain of truth in the old fashioned eventer/hunter/racer fittening programmes that advocated 6 weeks of road work before moving up through the gears.


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## Mike007 (3 January 2017)

Our modern interpretation of excessive trotting is vastly different to the circumstances that lead to the accepted wisdom that too much trotting on roads is bad .Back when carriage horses might be working and trotting for many hours every day ,it was certainly true. As for the barefoot versus shod argument , It is not the concussive force of the hoof (shod or not) that is the major factor in my opinion . Try hitting a hard object with a lump of wood , now try it with a lump of steel . The steel hurts! why,? shockwaves in steel travel much faster and deliver the energy in what might be described as a hard punch (if you are not familiar with the word Brisance). My concern is the cumulative effect of these powerful vibrations . In humans we refer to white finger disease. I would expect something similar.I seriously doubt whether the odd canter on semi hard tracks is harmful either. I have done this many times out hunting but have seen followers gallop full tilt into deep mud that I would only walk through.!


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## Tnavas (4 January 2017)

Back in the day in the UK when I was working on livery yards and hunter yards 1 hours steady trotting on the road was the fitness program for the majority of the horses.

The trot was referred to as a 'Hound Jog' around 8 - 10 miles an hour. We didn't seem to have any problems with the horses, they were extremely fit and hooves were really hard, we also hacked on flint paths with no stone bruises or the like.

The amount of work done on grass and soft surfaces I believe affects the strength and durability of the hooves.

Here in NZ where road work is minimal and most horses are worked exclusively on grass I've seen many, many stone bruises and abscesses.

Care had to be taken on icy days or when trotting around blind corners on narrow lanes.


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## Neversaydie (4 January 2017)

gunnergundog said:



			Bottom line. Just because a horse is barefoot doesn't mean its ok to do hours of roadwork at trot.  Quote Marlin.
		
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I must have a miracle horse then as I've probably clocked up weeks worth of hours trotting on the roads with my gelding both shod and unshod. 

I read that article and being honest i am not barefoot crazy but I found the inconsistencies disturbing so I left a big question mark over his claims. 

The dissection video floating around that shows a hoof under concussion with a shoe on and without proves to lessen the impact therfore dulling the vibrations travelling up the legs.


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## LD&S (4 January 2017)

I could easily have imagined it but I seem to remember reading some time ago that there is less concussion cantering than trotting, I don't quite know if I would canter were it true anyway but we do trot out on the road but not for miles at a time partly because both horse and rider aren't that fit and partly due to the potential impact on joints etc and never downhill.


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## Tnavas (4 January 2017)

LD&S said:



			I could easily have imagined it but I seem to remember reading some time ago that there is less concussion cantering than trotting, I don't quite know if I would canter were it true anyway but we do trot out on the road but not for miles at a time partly because both horse and rider aren't that fit and partly due to the potential impact on joints etc and never downhill.
		
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Cantering is a very unbalanced movement (3 time) so tends to muscle the horse unevenly and also tends to burn muscle away. Trotting is an even pace - diagonal  pairs so both sides of the horse should muscle up equally so long as the rider changes the diagonal they riseon regularly


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## PorkChop (4 January 2017)

I do trot on the roads, not as much as I used to, but that is mainly because I don't hack as much as I used to.

I used to hunt 2/3 times a week and trotted a lot on the roads, both at home and out hunting.  Can't say I have noticed a difference in the soundness of my horses.


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## ycbm (4 January 2017)

Amicus said:



			Thanks!

This is his bit on barefoot horses for anyone else interested.

'(4) BAREFOOT HORSES
The presence of shoes does not change the overall/total force on the limb (which is determined by the mass of the horse and the rider) which has to be dissipated by the elastic structures of the limb (tendon, ligament, joint). However metal shoes do cause greater vibration/concussion and detrimentally alter the kinematics of the stride. They also alter how the foot interacts with the ground and how the force is distributed throughout the foot (but not higher). Trotting on a road generates concussion and high peak forces in shod horses. These are lower in barefoot horses. However, a barefoot horse trotting on a road will still experience very high forces compared with say trotting on grass, although these will be less than for a shod horse. Bottom line. Just because a horse is barefoot doesn't mean its ok to do hours of roadwork at trot.'
		
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What absolute rubbish. He's certainly no engineer!!  If you're having trouble breaking a rock you get a sledgehammer with a heavier head.

The presence of half a pound to a pound of metal on the end of a long lever most definitely makes an enormous difference to the overall force on the lever (limb).

If anyone wants the science on that, because it's not my personal unsubstantiated opinion, I'll gladly look it up for you.

He's spouting off his own personal opinion with no proof at all that any amount of trotting a barefoot horse on the road is damaging.


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## MyBoyChe (4 January 2017)

We have fabulous bridleways around us, but they are riddled with rabbit and badger holes so for me, trotting on the roads is safer!  That said, I only do shortish bursts, perhaps half a mile max at a time and always on the level or uphill.  As with most things, there are so many factors to take into account and what suits some, wont suit others.


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## LD&S (4 January 2017)

Tnavas said:



			Cantering is a very unbalanced movement (3 time) so tends to muscle the horse unevenly and also tends to burn muscle away. Trotting is an even pace - diagonal  pairs so both sides of the horse should muscle up equally so long as the rider changes the diagonal they riseon regularly
		
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I was only referring to the concussion effect


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## catkin (4 January 2017)

What kind of surfaces are on your roads as that makes a big difference?  if it is smooth tarmac it is a very nice surface to trot on as it has a very slight 'bounce' to it, concrete tracks and pot-holey damaged roads are a very different prospect.

There's also a small matter of there being trotting and trotting - those of us who regularly trot on the road do not hammer along on the forehand, we look to keep the horse at a rhythmical pace (what used to be called 'hound jog').

Interestingly, my native ponies prefer to trot on a good tarmac surface rather than the grassy verges, they will veer onto the road off the verges. Probably some instinct to keep their feet well away from potential soft patches/bogs after all they are the experts on where it's safe to put their feet.


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## Goldenstar (4 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Roadwork was always considered the best for all hunters and Racehorses. EKW I too saw that study very enlightening it compared injuries in young horses that did roadwork as routine against those that didnt and the conclusion was roadwork actually helped strengthen the bone and particularly in TBs they suffered less fractures in racing than those that didnt
		
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And that's just the thing with horses few things are wholly good or wholly bad .
While it's fact that roadwork is great for bone health is it good for joint health ? The studies were done in racehorses and they were looking at stress fractures .
My horses hunt and some days they will do a lot of fast roadwork but I would never trot for an hour on the road for exercise .


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## bollybop (4 January 2017)

Never had a problem trotting on the road.


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## Casey76 (4 January 2017)

We regularly used to go on "trottings" for fittening work.  Trotting on a nice flat smooth surface like tarmac is much easier on the limbs than trotting on an overly deep surface (whether it's grass covered, sand school etc).

We'd do about 8-10km in an hour, 95% of which was trotting all on the road.

When I did that regularly, his feet had never been better, and it actually seemed to improve his movement wrt his spavins.


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## popsdosh (4 January 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			And that's just the thing with horses few things are wholly good or wholly bad .
While it's fact that roadwork is great for bone health is it good for joint health ? The studies were done in racehorses and they were looking at stress fractures .
My horses hunt and some days they will do a lot of fast roadwork but I would never trot for an hour on the road for exercise .
		
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Not sure about joints to be honest as personally would rather see a horse working on a relatively even surface(road rather than verge everytime) and there has always been the argument that the small amount of slip on tarmac actually helps protect the joints from excess lateral and longitudinal forces.Not only that it does help tendons and ligaments as well as bone. I know a lot of vets who blame school surfaces for a lot of the increase in certain gait disorders. Dont even get me started on horsewalkers with rubber floors


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## applecart14 (4 January 2017)

I never trot for long on the roads, never on a decline however slight.
I will trot on inclines but for approx. 20 strides and that's it.  I also change my diagonal frequently.

The vet told me it was okay to trot on the roads, but previous advice I had has always been not to, so I am confused.

Finally I always put the Westropp brushing/knee boots on my horse whenever I hack out on tarmac.


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## stormox (4 January 2017)

Have trotted on the roads exercising hunters and pt-to -pters for many years. Often for over a mile maybe two. And up inclines. Even steadily down gentle inclines. Not once has there been a leg problem caused by it. A sensible trot, mind, not a flat out butcher boy trot. And not on icy/slippery roads.
I would freeze to death this weather if I only walked on the roads!!


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## popsdosh (4 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			What absolute rubbish. He's certainly no engineer!!  If you're having trouble breaking a rock you get a sledgehammer with a heavier head.

The presence of half a pound to a pound of metal on the end of a long lever most definitely makes an enormous difference to the overall force on the lever (limb).

If anyone wants the science on that, because it's not my personal unsubstantiated opinion, I'll gladly look it up for you.

He's spouting off his own personal opinion with no proof at all that any amount of trotting a barefoot horse on the road is damaging.
		
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It depends which end you are assuming the forces are coming from ! I think you will find he and others assume that half a ton of horse with a rider on top creates more mechanical forces to damage a limb than .25kg on the bottom of the foot .
What he actually implied was that any roadwork can be detrimental and that unshod was better but not immune to damage.
As I said above a shod hoof actually slips slightly more than unshod on tarmac so it could be argued actually helps protect joints more.


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## Sukistokes2 (4 January 2017)

I do trot my horses on the road, both the shod and bare footed one. I choose only to do short bursts with both. I'm pretty sure its better to build up to longer distances. I was always told not to trot down hill on the road as the horse could slip, not such a problem with the bare footed horse. At this point I would not want to join a hack where there was a lot of trotting, or it was the main pace. Maybe OP you should post on FB for a riding buddy who does not want to trot so much. It matters not whether it will harm your horse, whether its ok or not, if you choose not to do so then its your horse , your choice. You just need to find an appropriate buddy. Maybe one of those people will come out for a slower hack if you spoke to them and explained, maybe they just don't realise they are trotting that much.


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## AdorableAlice (4 January 2017)

Interesting comments.

I prefer to walk, on the bridle, up hills.  It is harder work for them to walk and the rider can or should be able to feel the back and hind end working.  Horses find it much easier to trot up hills than walk, especially the lazier ones.

Until the horse is balanced, able to carry weight behind and is up through the wither mine do not trot on the road.  This is the key for safe and beneficial trotting on the road and sadly many riders will never have experienced the feeling of an uphill off the forehand trot that can be maintained for a period of time.

Not many will agree, but that is my take on trotting on concrete.


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## pennyturner (4 January 2017)

We trot for miles, ridden and driven, on tarmac roads.  These ponies are the type who will refuse point blank to go up a gear if they don't like the surface.  They LIKE cantering on tarmac.  It has a slight spring, decent grip, and is predictably stone-free.

11 ponies, 20 years, hardly a day lame (barefoot).  Oldest is over 30, still going out with the others and one of them had a catastrophic shoulder trauma, now almost completely recovered.  My experience is that progressive roadwork (i.e. built up over time, not right away for a young horse) seems to give them sound strong limbs - as practised by old fashioned hunter trainers.

Funny how many folk won't trot on roads, but think nothing of lunging a youngster on a deep soft surface, then wonder why it's always lame!


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## ester (4 January 2017)

I was thinking a driver's viewpoint might be useful given the amount of work that needs to be done for driving trials  personally I've always done a fair bit but usually 5-10 mins a time and mostly when he is walk is getting too irritatingly slow , I'm not sure it did harm or good, it's not something that has overly bothered me but he's old so


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## scats (4 January 2017)

I make sure my younger horses have always do a small amount of trotting on roads, but I literally mean a short steady burst up one road for a minute or two, rather than 10 minutes of it.  Then I may add another short burst in again on the way home.

My horse who had a massive Tendon injury in the field is always walked for 1-2 weeks out on roads before returning to the manège after any significant amount of time off.  I really do believe it has kept him sound (he was effectively written off as injury was so severe but I gave him 18 months off and then introduced daily road walking, horse sound as any other now and had remained so in work).
Give me an even road over an uneven not harrowed manege any day of the week!


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## indie1282 (4 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Interesting comments.

I prefer to walk, on the bridle, up hills.  It is harder work for them to walk and the rider can or should be able to feel the back and hind end working.  Horses find it much easier to trot up hills than walk, especially the lazier ones.

Until the horse is balanced, able to carry weight behind and is up through the wither mine do not trot on the road.  This is the key for safe and beneficial trotting on the road and sadly many riders will never have experienced the feeling of an uphill off the forehand trot that can be maintained for a period of time.

Not many will agree, but that is my take on trotting on concrete.
		
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This.

Walking up hills is much harder work than bowling on in trot. I know someone who's vet advised them to do lots of trotting, but when they do ride they trot flat out on the forehand - which imo isn't doing the legs much good!

I'm quite old school and still do my 2 -3 weeks walking when I'm bringing back in to work and do not go near an arena un till 6 - 8 weeks. I do some trot work but I pick my road surface and I do a steady balanced trot and am always aiming to have the horse soft and in a nice length of frame rather than pounding the roads.


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## ihatework (4 January 2017)

Tnavas said:



			Cantering is a very unbalanced movement (3 time) so tends to muscle the horse unevenly and also tends to burn muscle away. Trotting is an even pace - diagonal  pairs so both sides of the horse should muscle up equally so long as the rider changes the diagonal they riseon regularly
		
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Whilst I understand your point about uneven gait in canter, your point about changing diagonal in trot could equally be applied to changing leg in canter.

I'm intrigued by your comment about cantering 'burning muscle away', would you care to elaborate.

I find this conversation very interesting having recently been party to discussions regarding the fittening work of a large heavier set 4* horse. Under veterinary advice and backed up by advice from big name rider the concensus was as much walk road work as you can do. When doing anything else, irrespective of surface, significantly limit trot and replace with canter


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## be positive (4 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Interesting comments.

I prefer to walk, on the bridle, up hills.  It is harder work for them to walk and the rider can or should be able to feel the back and hind end working.  Horses find it much easier to trot up hills than walk, especially the lazier ones.

Until the horse is balanced, able to carry weight behind and is up through the wither mine do not trot on the road.  This is the key for safe and beneficial trotting on the road and sadly many riders will never have experienced the feeling of an uphill off the forehand trot that can be maintained for a period of time.

Not many will agree, but that is my take on trotting on concrete.
		
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indie1282 said:



			This.

Walking up hills is much harder work than bowling on in trot. I know someone who's vet advised them to do lots of trotting, but when they do ride they trot flat out on the forehand - which imo isn't doing the legs much good!

I'm quite old school and still do my 2 -3 weeks walking when I'm bringing back in to work and do not go near an arena un till 6 - 8 weeks. I do some trot work but I pick my road surface and I do a steady balanced trot and am always aiming to have the horse soft and in a nice length of frame rather than pounding the roads.
		
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I am also old school and like to do plenty of roadwork when fittening, I think that ideally horses will do a variety of work on many different surfaces to condition them fully, so many never get outside of an arena are always on a "perfect" surface yet suffer from injuries that may be prevented if they were properly conditioned by working on roads, grass and even the odd rutted bridleway to help with balance.


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## chestnut cob (4 January 2017)

I do trot on the roads but not hell for leather.  Mine had an injury last year and his rehab work (from vet and physio) included hours of hacking on the roads with up to 50% trot, but that had to be short bursts with lots of transitions.  I wouldn't go for miles in trot.  I would get the horse working properly in walk then do lots of transitions on hills and flatter areas, so he'd only trot for a couple of hundred yards max in a stretch, but that would involve transitions (back to walk and within the trot), lots of half halts, and later on, lateral work when the road was clear.  I wasn't allowed to do circles or school work for a while; all of his strengthening work had to be done on the roads in straight lines, but "proper" schooling with the horse working correctly.

I don't see a problem with trotting on the road as long as you're not going flat out and hammering them.  I'd rather do the above work on tarmac roads than a horrible, deep surface of an arena which can create even more problems.


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## Nudibranch (4 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Interesting comments.

I prefer to walk, on the bridle, up hills.  It is harder work for them to walk and the rider can or should be able to feel the back and hind end working.  Horses find it much easier to trot up hills than walk, especially the lazier ones.

Until the horse is balanced, able to carry weight behind and is up through the wither mine do not trot on the road.  This is the key for safe and beneficial trotting on the road and sadly many riders will never have experienced the feeling of an uphill off the forehand trot that can be maintained for a period of time.

Not many will agree, but that is my take on trotting on concrete.
		
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How refreshing to hear the importance of walk these days! I have always worked really hard to establish a proper walk on youngsters, especially the current one who is big, somewhat lazy and very unbalanced. Yet I am often nagged about starting canter work with him by horsey friends (and the vet, who should know better) - sorry, but not until the walk is right and then the trot. I'm not even *that* old, but it seems many these days seem to prioritise the faster paces and walk is forgotten. 

Anyway, that was a bit off topic. IMO, short periods of trot with an unshod horse are a positive (once they are ready!).


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## be positive (4 January 2017)

ihatework said:



			Whilst I understand your point about uneven gait in canter, your point about changing diagonal in trot could equally be applied to changing leg in canter.

I'm intrigued by your comment about cantering 'burning muscle away', would you care to elaborate.

I find this conversation very interesting having recently been party to discussions regarding the fittening work of a large heavier set 4* horse. Under veterinary advice and backed up by advice from big name rider the concensus was as much walk road work as you can do. When doing anything else, irrespective of surface, significantly limit trot and replace with canter
		
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That advice makes sense, it is a bit like training a racehorse, you want it fit to gallop and jump so use canter as much as you can, there is going to be less concussion in a light balanced canter than in trot so the horse should have more chance of staying sound.

No idea why cantering should burn away muscle that makes no sense when you look at a well muscled racehorse that probably never does any trotting.


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## Abacus (4 January 2017)

Kafairia said:



			(and I think those that have cantered on roads before are nuts! But thats my opinion)
		
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I was out hunting 2 days ago and we were trotting along a road. We weren't trotting fast especially by hunt standards. The horse in front of me was cantering - a nice steady canter, neither very bouncy nor very fast. I was watching it and the horse beside it who was trotting, and thinking about the concussion and why we generally think that a bit of trot on the road is ok but would normally not canter. This is a very subjective view based on a sample of only 2 horses, but I wouldn't say that the cantering horse looked to be pounding the road any harder than the trotting horse.


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## respectedpony driver (4 January 2017)

Well this is  an interesting thread.I drive and it is usual to trot on the road,my pony has boots on.She also canters up some hills on the road,I can hear the OMG's now but it is easier for her to keep the momentum going,she does it herself.


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## pennyturner (4 January 2017)

We drive for 10 miles on the road without coming out of trot some days.  That means that if a rider is out with us, they have to do the same to keep up.  We should probably do more to make sure the riders are changing the leg more often, as they're likely doing most of it on the same diagonal.  The riders sometimes have a problem keeping up the trot for a couple of hours, but the ponies don't.

We also routinely canter the hills.  It's much easier to take a run up with a heavy load to pull.  In fact there are a couple of roads locally where the driving ponies enjoy a good gallop up the hill (the horror!)  I like them to be happy in all paces in harness, especially on the road.  That way when something happens, a shy is unlikely to turn into a bolt.


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## smja (4 January 2017)

We trot ours on the road. It was the key to getting my short-striding little horse to let go through his back and take a longer stride BUT as others have said, care should be taken not to push the horse too fast/onto the forehand.

However, the main thing is that it should be built up gradually - you don't take a horse that has never trotted on a road and trot about for an hour. It needs to be increased over time, the same as any other kind of work we ask our horses to do.


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## applecart14 (4 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Interesting comments.

I prefer to walk, on the bridle, up hills.  It is harder work for them to walk and the rider can or should be able to feel the back and hind end working.  Horses find it much easier to trot up hills than walk, especially the lazier ones.

Until the horse is balanced, able to carry weight behind and is up through the wither mine do not trot on the road.  This is the key for safe and beneficial trotting on the road and sadly many riders will never have experienced the feeling of an uphill off the forehand trot that can be maintained for a period of time.

Not many will agree, but that is my take on trotting on concrete.
		
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I trot up hill as it is kinder on the tendons when you trot up an incline. A horse with a suspensory branch problem (which I have encountered with my own) has less chance of injuring itself uphill.

When I started doing some very slight jogging on the treadmill at the Gym I remembered my equine physio's advice about trotting uphill and made the treadmill work on a incline.


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## Amye (4 January 2017)

A very interesting thread!  Some good points raised and i'll be looking into them further.

I do trot my boy on the roads - roadwork is really the only work we can do for a short hack (around an hour) around here. I mostly keep to walk but trot him up the hills and will have a trot along one of the flats too sometimes. The hills are quite steep so we always walk coming down. He's shod and our trots are mostly in short bursts.

My previous loan horse I didn't trot on the roads as the owner didn't like it as he'd previously had splints - she didn't mind us trotting round a blind bend if needed but nothing more. But at the yard now, I know lots of people trot on the roads in short bursts.


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## ycbm (4 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			It depends which end you are assuming the forces are coming from ! I think you will find he and others assume that half a ton of horse with a rider on top creates more mechanical forces to damage a limb than .25kg on the bottom of the foot .
What he actually implied was that any roadwork can be detrimental and that unshod was better but not immune to damage.
As I said above a shod hoof actually slips slightly more than unshod on tarmac so it could be argued actually helps protect joints more.
		
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I take your point that the additional weight of a shoe seems miniscule compared to the weight of a horse and rider.

But I think the effect of the shoe is completely disproportionate for two reasons. The first is that it is additional weight on the end of a long lever. It multiplies the effect.

The second is that the leg bones of the front legs are not jointed to the skeleton. They are attached only by soft tissue. Therefore the majority of shock absorption of the weight of the body and rider will take place in the shoulder soft tissue. So again, the impact of additional weight on the foot will have a very disproportionate effect on the leg joints.


I trot for a few minutes at a time on roads, but I canter up hills often. My cob has thrown two whacking great splints. Interestingly, he did it after being out of work for several months due to my illnesses, and before he did any road work.


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## popsdosh (4 January 2017)

applecart14 said:



			I trot up hill as it is kinder on the tendons when you trot up an incline. A horse with a suspensory branch problem (which I have encountered with my own) has less chance of injuring itself uphill.

When I started doing some very slight jogging on the treadmill at the Gym I remembered my equine physio's advice about trotting uphill and made the treadmill work on a incline.
		
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Incorrect, mechanically the tendons are less stretched going down hill as you will always shift your body to be as vertical as possible and so does the horse.


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## Bernster (4 January 2017)

I don't do much trotting on the road - I hate the sound of shoes on the road but I am a bf fan although have one horse shod atm.  I will start short bursts as part of our interval training but fortunately we have very few roads around here so most of this is done on a good surface.  I do tend to be careful and only do fast work (trotting and cantering) on a good surface, and avoid it on hard or too boggy ground.


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## popsdosh (4 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			I take your point that the additional weight of a shoe seems miniscule compared to the weight of a horse and rider.

But I think the effect of the shoe is completely disproportionate for two reasons. The first is that it is additional weight on the end of a long lever. It multiplies the effect.

The second is that the leg bones of the front legs are not jointed to the skeleton. They are attached only by soft tissue. Therefore the majority of shock absorption of the weight of the body and rider will take place in the shoulder soft tissue. So again, the impact of additional weight on the foot will have a very disproportionate effect on the leg joints.


I trot for a few minutes at a time on roads, but I canter up hills often. My cob has thrown two whacking great splints. Interestingly, he did it after being out of work for several months due to my illnesses, and before he did any road work.
		
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I could have sworn you put the horse doesnt have a shoulder joint ,must be my mistake


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## cobgoblin (4 January 2017)

Amicus said:



			Thanks!

This is his bit on barefoot horses for anyone else interested.

'(4) BAREFOOT HORSES
The presence of shoes does not change the overall/total force on the limb (which is determined by the mass of the horse and the rider) which has to be dissipated by the elastic structures of the limb (tendon, ligament, joint). However metal shoes do cause greater vibration/concussion and detrimentally alter the kinematics of the stride. They also alter how the foot interacts with the ground and how the force is distributed throughout the foot (but not higher). Trotting on a road generates concussion and high peak forces in shod horses. These are lower in barefoot horses. However, a barefoot horse trotting on a road will still experience very high forces compared with say trotting on grass, although these will be less than for a shod horse. Bottom line. Just because a horse is barefoot doesn't mean its ok to do hours of roadwork at trot.'
		
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I agree with this. In addition the barefoot horse should have more frog in contact with the road thus giving a larger area to dissipate the forces....a bit like a human running on concrete in a pair of hard soled shoes versus trainers.


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## ester (4 January 2017)

Fwiw I was of the same thought as popsdosh the presence of a shoe doesn't change ultimately the force, but IMO it does change what then happens to it.


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## TheMule (4 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Incorrect, mechanically the tendons are less stretched going down hill as you will always shift your body to be as vertical as possible and so does the horse.
		
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Thank you!
I hate people spouting off rubbish science. Flexor tendons will have more strain going through them whilst going uphill both because of incresed strength of muscular contraction to propel the horse up against gravity and due to the simple rules of angles.
Concussion is reduced going uphill which will be most beneficial to joints


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## ester (4 January 2017)

I thought that applecart was saying she trotted uphill rather than walked because of the tendon strain rather than the uphill/downhill argument?


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## ycbm (4 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I could have sworn you put the horse doesnt have a shoulder joint ,must be my mistake 

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I don't understand this comment? The horses front leg bones are not jointed to the skeleton. The connection is soft tissue only. What point are you trying to make?


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## TheMule (4 January 2017)

ester said:



			I thought that applecart was saying she trotted uphill rather than walked because of the tendon strain rather than the uphill/downhill argument?
		
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But that's still rubbish- there's an increased force when trotting so it will always be more straining than walking


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## tallyho! (4 January 2017)

Very interesting thread, interesting to read David Marlin  - no idea who he was until today. Would like an opinion from someone in the USA that does do research into barefoot and concussion like Dr Robert Bowker, Tomas Teskey or one of the farriers like KC La Pierre, Jaime Jackson or Pete Ramey. This would balance things out a little... here is one link, there are many.. http://www.healthyhoof.com/articles/concussion.htm

In these discussions, I very much can't help myself but think of the wild horse and what they are capable of living on the hardest landscapes on earth without any of them seeing a farrier/trimmer all their lives. They live to over 30years. Look up Cloud the Stallion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajX0agx0O4w

I do trot my horse on the roads but only in short intervals and tarmac is pretty incredible as a surface but very hard on on shod hooves. A barefoot hoof is probably better designed to cope with such surfaces, even so, I would not do it for 1hr non-stop on tarmac. I would if it was a more varied terrain and a mix of footings. However, I'm very aware that a domesticated horse cannot adapt to the surfaces we make them work on as they are stabled/paddock kept for most of the time. We can't expect a hoof to be a wild hoof if we can't expose it to "wild" conditions. The closest we can get is a "Paddock Paradise" system and I see more and more of these as I drive around. Encouraging and perhaps we will one day move to a more "hoof friendly" way of keeping horses.


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## ester (4 January 2017)

TheMule said:



			But that's still rubbish- there's an increased force when trotting so it will always be more straining than walking
		
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 I'm trying to work out if there is a stride length/momentum argument for that not being the case. I only thought that because it was a reply to AS saying she walked because it was harder (can't remember exact wording and on phone), maybe AC can elaborate.


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## popsdosh (4 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			I don't understand this comment? The horses front leg bones are not jointed to the skeleton. The connection is soft tissue only. What point are you trying to make?
		
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It was light hearted because I could have sworn you stated the horse does not have a shoulder joint ,before it was edited


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## Tnavas (4 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Incorrect, mechanically the tendons are less stretched going down hill as you will always shift your body to be as vertical as possible and so does the horse.
		
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The correct position for the rider going downhill is folded forward, similar to a light jumping position. Keeping the body vertical puts additional weight on the horses hindquarters making it harder for them to move freely.


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## ester (4 January 2017)

Which is why popsdosh was referring to the natural shift of the body not what you necessarily should do. More importantly can you respond to the queries about canter and muscles?


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## Tnavas (4 January 2017)

hollyandtheivy said:



			In these discussions, I very much can't help myself but think of the wild horse and what they are capable of living on the hardest landscapes on earth without any of them seeing a farrier/trimmer all their lives. They live to over 30years. Look up Cloud the Stallion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajX0agx0O4w
.
		
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Watched the movie and wondered if you noticed how many of those wild horses actually were moving unlevelness on that stony surface.

I can't find the article, archeologists working with fossilised horse bones found that many had signs of navicular, ring bone, side one and laminitis. These ones had never even seen a human.


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## Tnavas (4 January 2017)

ihatework said:



			Whilst I understand your point about uneven gait in canter, your point about changing diagonal in trot could equally be applied to changing leg in canter.

I'm intrigued by your comment about cantering 'burning muscle away', would you care to elaborate.

I find this conversation very interesting having recently been party to discussions regarding the fittening work of a large heavier set 4* horse. Under veterinary advice and backed up by advice from big name rider the concensus was as much walk road work as you can do. When doing anything else, irrespective of surface, significantly limit trot and replace with canter
		
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ester said:



			Which is why popsdosh was referring to the natural shift of the body not what you necessarily should do. More importantly can you respond to the queries about canter and muscles?
		
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Aerobic and anaerobic. Have to go to work, read this article, http://equimed.com/health-centers/fitness-and-conditioning/articles/effects-of-equine-conditioning


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## ihatework (4 January 2017)

Tnavas said:



			Aerobic and anaerobic. Have to go to work, read this article, http://equimed.com/health-centers/fitness-and-conditioning/articles/effects-of-equine-conditioning

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Oh deary me ....
And that folks is an example of why to be careful what you consider might be gospel on an Internet forum


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## only_me (4 January 2017)

Only trot if need to get in somewhere to let car past.

A good active walk into the hand is as good as a trot!


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## ester (4 January 2017)

Even that refers to short bursts of sprint exercise though! Thankfully my pony keeps breathing while in canter as it would seem do many others. Yes of course anaerobic respiration exists but not just from working your horse at a canter!


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## Tnavas (4 January 2017)

ihatework said:



			Oh deary me ....
And that folks is an example of why to be careful what you consider might be gospel on an Internet forum
		
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Why? What is wrong with the article? Why do you think horses that have just raced, competed cross country etc require several days recovery?


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## ester (4 January 2017)

I also think it must depend on your location, at mums in winter is you didn't trot on the road the horses wouldn't get out of walk much at all as that is mostly all there is, in the summer the clay bakes hard so even off road is no better. I think even F would start to get fed up only ever walking everywhere. At my wilts location lots of off road but as hunting I did make sure we did enough that I felt he was ok for that.


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## ester (4 January 2017)

Tnavas said:



			Why? What is wrong with the article? Why do you think horses that have just raced, competed cross country etc require several days recovery?
		
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Err having a canter is hardly comparable to racing!


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## Tnavas (4 January 2017)

ester said:



			Even that refers to short bursts of sprint exercise though! Thankfully my pony keeps breathing while in canter as it would seem do many others. Yes of course anaerobic respiration exists but not just from working your horse at a canter!
		
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Aerobic and anaerobic refers to the way the muscles use the oxygen, and chemical reaction


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## ihatework (4 January 2017)

Tnavas said:



			Why? What is wrong with the article? Why do you think horses that have just raced, competed cross country etc require several days recovery?
		
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There is nothing wrong with the article.
But the article does not say that cantering burns muscle


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## ester (4 January 2017)

Tnavas said:



			Aerobic and anaerobic refers to the way the muscles use the oxygen, and chemical reaction
		
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And as someone with a science doctorate funnily enough I know that! Respiration is the name for that chemical reaction, hence me saying that of course it exists in both forms, just not when cantering your horse!
Even when racing it will only really be the finish that is anaerobic


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## ycbm (4 January 2017)

Tnavas said:



			Why? What is wrong with the article? Why do you think horses that have just raced, competed cross country etc require several days recovery?
		
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They don't, if they have been properly fittened for the activity. That's why three day eventers show jump on the third day, to prove their fitness. Race horses could probably run the course again the next day, but slower, so they couldn't win,  so no-one would do it. It's all about fitness for the activity.

One of the best books I read on fittening a one day eventer said that if your horse could not have gone out and done the same event the next day (barring injury), then it wasn't fit enough to do the first one without risk of muscle, tendon or ligament injuries.


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## ycbm (4 January 2017)

Just want to point out, too, that a walk is not as good as a trot for fittening the heart, which is also a muscle.


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## popsdosh (4 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			They don't, if they have been properly fittened for the activity. That's why three day eventers show jump on the third day, to prove their fitness. Race horses could probably run the course again the next day, but slower, so they couldn't win,  so no-one would do it. It's all about fitness for the activity.

One of the best books I read on fittening a one day eventer said that if your horse could not have gone out and done the same event the next day (barring injury), then it wasn't fit enough to do the first one without risk of muscle, tendon or ligament injuries.
		
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Theres plenty of racehorses won two days running including Cheltenham festival and ascot. They run better on the second day than they do if you miss a day its well known in racing


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## rowan666 (4 January 2017)

catkin said:



			Interestingly, my native ponies prefer to trot on a good tarmac surface rather than the grassy verges, they will veer onto the road off the verges. Probably some instinct to keep their feet well away from potential soft patches/bogs after all they are the experts on where it's safe to put their feet.
		
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Mine do too, including the Anglo (all barefoot). I generally let my horses set their own pace out hacking (obviously providing it's safe to do so) and my mare in particular seems to actually prefer trotting over walking when on roads, she's ex gypsy broodmare so perhaps she was previously driven and it's just habbit though??


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## ycbm (4 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Theres plenty of racehorses won two days running including Cheltenham festival and ascot. They run better on the second day than they do if you miss a day its well known in racing
		
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I don't know that    Just proves the point about fitness, doesn't it Popsdosh?


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## spotty_pony2 (4 January 2017)

There is a big thread on Facebook about this at the moment by a Veterinary Researcher. I used to trot on the road a fair bit, but since I learnt more I realised how conclusive it is for them. My Appy has bone spavin but has been a lot better since being barefoot behind last summer. I have spent the past six months just walking on the roads except for out hunting, but have recently introduced some small bursts of steady trotting into our exercise - due to my horse telling me this is what he is happy to do! Obviously we trot on the roads more out Hunting but as this is only once or twice per month I see it as not too much of a problem.


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## popsdosh (4 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			I don't know that    Just proves the point about fitness, doesn't it Popsdosh?
		
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Why make a statement that they cant! 

 About the Busiest was Commercial Flyer back in 2005 he ran on 3 consecutive days and won two but if that wasnt enough he actually won two more in the next nine days . Rushaway won two derbys on consecutive days. Going back to 63 Shannons hope won 5 races in 8 days.


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## tallyho! (4 January 2017)

Tnavas said:



			Watched the movie and wondered if you noticed how many of those wild horses actually were moving unlevelness on that stony surface.

I can't find the article, archeologists working with fossilised horse bones found that many had signs of navicular, ring bone, side one and laminitis. These ones had never even seen a human.
		
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Your first point - well of course, it's very rocky terrain and steep sided hills. How can they be level if the terrain is not level? The aspect was from above so hard to properly judge the gradient. 

Second point - I'm sure that many wild horses will have some ossification but there are some researchers who think they may be adaptations. Navicular has many definitions - what exactly was found wrong with the navicular bone in these samples? What were the signs? From the latest research, navicular doesn't really mean anything as it is a collection of symptoms of pain in the area where the navicular bone is. Pinpointing "navicular" is still a bit finger in the air here in the UK. Laminitis I can quite believe because that has been noted in Clouds' herd when they reach lush grazing but is transient rather than what we see in domesticated horses who generally eat rich food for a prolonged period of with no natural "wax/wane" cycling.


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## FfionWinnie (4 January 2017)

Tnavas said:



			Watched the movie and wondered if you noticed how many of those wild horses actually were moving unlevelness on that stony surface.

.
		
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How can they possibly move "levelly" on a rock strewn steep and quite obviously unlevel hill?!


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## Pearlsasinger (4 January 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Interesting comments.

I prefer to walk, on the bridle, up hills.  It is harder work for them to walk and the rider can or should be able to feel the back and hind end working.  Horses find it much easier to trot up hills than walk, especially the lazier ones.

Until the horse is balanced, able to carry weight behind and is up through the wither mine do not trot on the road.  This is the key for safe and beneficial trotting on the road and sadly many riders will never have experienced the feeling of an uphill off the forehand trot that can be maintained for a period of time.

Not many will agree, but that is my take on trotting on concrete.
		
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But most roads (none round here) are not concrete. Trotting on tarmac is not the same as trotting on concrete. I find that trotting up hill helps the horse to develop the musculature to work correctly, so long as the trot is not the hammering along on the forehand that I see so many riders allowing/encouraging.


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## Tiddlypom (4 January 2017)

I am always aghast at how the mounted followers of the local hunt hammer past on the roads in an unbalanced butchers boy trot when they are round here. I am also reliably informed (by a subscriber to said hunt) that the average viable sound  working life of hunters round here is just 3 seasons.


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## millitiger (4 January 2017)

We do plenty of trotting on roads, on the level and up inclines and hills. 
Never trot downhill on the road.

The better schooled the horse, the longer the trot periods- you want them off the forehand, in self carriage with bottoms doing the work.
Youngsters and unschooled horses do trot but only shorter bursts and walk again as soon as the balance starts to flag.

My older horse can now trot easily for 10mins at a time on the road as her balance is much improved.
Youngsters may only trot for 20 seconds at a time and slowly build up over months and years as their balance and carriage improves.

Hunting, if we are going a fair clip down the road, I'd rather slow canter than hammer along in medium trot.


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## rachk89 (4 January 2017)

How odd this topic showed up as I saw something today that puzzled me a bit. Saw an advert for a hunter and in two of the pictures the horse was cantering on the road. Kind of made me think would I want to buy a horse that is cantered on roads? I can get trotting for a bit to get round a bend or move quicker to get to a layby to let cars past but otherwise I don't bother. Certainly would never canter on the road.


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## ester (4 January 2017)

Whereas as the owner of a welsh cob, who would usually bring out the slamming cob trot only when hunting I would much, much rather he cantered at that point than and many people feel the same. My most recent pack did very little road work though so never for long, the previous one did a bit more.


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## jsprince (4 January 2017)

All of mine trot on roads we normally do 6 miles plus in summer they normally trot up and down hills and on the flat whilst pulling a carriage.  They are all pretty fit and also canter in harness on gravel tracks.


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## chocolategirl (4 January 2017)

Only ever trot uphil nowadays but my old eventer (novice level)was trotted up hill and downhill for the 23 years I owned him and he was sound till the day he died so it's a bit of strange one really isn't it? IMO if doing a bit of trotting on roads 'breaks' your horse, it probably would have broken anyway!


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## Tnavas (4 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			How can they possibly move "levelly" on a rock strewn steep and quite obviously unlevel hill?!
		
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They were limping!!!!!


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## Kezzabell2 (4 January 2017)

I trot more if I'm on my own, I find lots of people don't like trotting on roads but my horse needs to trim his own hooves and by trotting it helps keep them nice a neat!

I wouldn't trot the whole hack but I would do a good 3rd of the hack or half, depending how far I'm going


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## FfionWinnie (4 January 2017)

Tnavas said:



			They were limping!!!!!
		
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They were moving up a shear rock strewn slope with a helicopter in pursuit of them. I don't think you are used to watching animals on that terrain.


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## Broc (4 January 2017)

We do a lot of trotting on roads, riding and driving, not had any problems yet, also canter occasionally.


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## Tnavas (4 January 2017)

ester said:



			Whereas as the owner of a welsh cob, who would usually bring out the slamming cob trot only when hunting I would much, much rather he cantered at that point than and many people feel the same. My most recent pack did very little road work though so never for long, the previous one did a bit more.
		
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There is a higher increase of slipping or falling on the road, purely because at one point only one foot is on the ground and the period of suspension is quite elevated, if unbalanced at any point in the stride the risk is increased. At least with trotting 2 feet are on the ground and the period of suspension is of minimal height.

Never had a problem with trotting any of the horses I've owned or worked with trotting on the road, they have all remained sound. The main concern I would have and would check daily is sore shins - and that is caused by the concussion - legs checked twice daily for heat over the front of the cannon bone.


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## ester (4 January 2017)

No shoes, balanced, well schooled pony, never slipped on tarmac ever. 

We did have one nasty metalled road on a nasty hill on one of the estates that everyone was careful with and I hated seeing shod horses on at all but we never slipped on that either though always sensible. He has an excellent 'woah listen to me I know best you sod' installed .

It is of course completely each to their own but in my circumstances once I got over the intial BHS instilled OMG cantering on the road I have never had an issue with it on occasion, in it's place as sometimes a better option than the alternative at that time when you know the situation and your horse.


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## amandaco2 (4 January 2017)

i trot my bf dressage horses on the roads a bit. mostly as I have no arena so in winter once its wet we can only hack out. they don't seem bothered by it, I do a gentle trot, not hammering along and mostly up hills.


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## tallyho! (4 January 2017)

Tnavas said:



			They were limping!!!!!
		
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Poor wild horses... limping on the rocks. It's a wonder they evolved on the planet all on their own... any logical person would believe they landed here on an alien spaceship - "what other animal walks on its middle finger alone?" - quote from somewhere.


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## Tnavas (5 January 2017)

hollyandtheivy said:



			Poor wild horses... limping on the rocks. It's a wonder they evolved on the planet all on their own... any logical person would believe they landed here on an alien spaceship - "what other animal walks on its middle finger alone?" - quote from somewhere.
		
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And your point is?



FfionWinnie said:



			They were moving up a shear rock strewn slope with a helicopter in pursuit of them. I don't think you are used to watching animals on that terrain.
		
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Certainly am we have mountain ranges here in NZ - the helicopter was not in pursuit of them, merely filming them, when helicopters pursuit horses they move pretty fast - our Kaimanawa horses are rounded up by helicopter.

Anyone living in the Chilterns will know that flints are everywhere, very knobbly and also sharp - we had paths we hacked over several times a week and none of my shod horses limped!


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## tallyho! (5 January 2017)

Tnavas said:



			And your point is?



Certainly am we have mountain ranges here in NZ - the helicopter was not in pursuit of them, merely filming them, when helicopters pursuit horses they move pretty fast - our Kaimanawa horses are rounded up by helicopter.

Anyone living in the Chilterns will know that flints are everywhere, very knobbly and also sharp - we had paths we hacked over several times a week and none of my shod horses limped!
		
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And your point is?


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## FfionWinnie (5 January 2017)

Tnavas said:



			And your point is?



Certainly am we have mountain ranges here in NZ - the helicopter was not in pursuit of them, merely filming them, when helicopters pursuit horses they move pretty fast - our Kaimanawa horses are rounded up by helicopter.

Anyone living in the Chilterns will know that flints are everywhere, very knobbly and also sharp - we had paths we hacked over several times a week and none of my shod horses limped!
		
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So you're suggesting wild horses need to be rounded up and shod?!  You don't half come out with some ridiculous statements but limping wild horses has to be the daftest yet.


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## ycbm (5 January 2017)

Tnavas said:



			They were limping!!!!!
		
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I'm just wondering how it's possible not to limp when one moment one of your feet is on top of a boulder and the next another of your feet has to avoid it or step on it and the there's another and another boulder every six inches to a foot along the track?

Wild horses which limp are called breakfast.


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## Crosshill Pacers (5 January 2017)

When we bring our aged horses in now at the end of January/start of February if our track isn't dried out enough (or it's too frosty) then we'll start jogging them on the roads.  We start with 5 minutes of walk and 10 minutes of trot for the first week, then up it to 5 minutes of walk and 15 minutes of trot in the second week.  If we still can't get on our track, the third week is 5 walk/20 trot and so on and so forth until we're up to 5 walk/35 or 40 trot.

We keep to the back roads though as main roads are far too fast and busy.


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## FfionWinnie (5 January 2017)

Here are some goats also "limping" yet managing to run down a cliff face. Hmmmm! One starts to wonder if "limping" to avoid slamming your shod foot down on any terrain is actually quite a good mechanism for protecting your limbs. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y_MS4N0G3CE


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## tallyho! (5 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			I'm just wondering how it's possible not to limp when one moment one of your feet is on top of a boulder and the next another of your feet has to avoid it or step on it and the there's another and another boulder every six inches to a foot along the track?

Wild horses which limp are called breakfast.
		
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Or... maybe, they need shoes


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## applecart14 (6 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Incorrect, mechanically the tendons are less stretched going down hill as you will always shift your body to be as vertical as possible and so does the horse.
		
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Well my vet and physio must both be wrong then Popsdosh.

An abstract from this : https://www.researchgate.net/public...gital_flexor_tendon_forces_at_trot_and_canter

Also in the Equine Veterinary Journal :  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.2006.tb05583.x/abstract

One cause of overstrain injury to the superficial digital flexor tendon (SDFT) in horses is the force loaded on the SDFT during repeated running. Therefore, decreasing this force may reduce SDFT injury. It has been reported that strain on the SDFT decreases with a toe-wedge shoe. Uphill courses are used for training of racehorses, and the angle of hoof-sole to the horizon during uphill running is similar to that of the toe-wedge shoe. To determine the effects of uphill exercise on the force on the SDFT during trotting and cantering. Arthroscopically implantable force probes (AIFP) were implanted into the SDFT of the left or right forelimb of 7 Thoroughbred horses and AIFP output recorded during trotting and cantering on a treadmill inclined at slopes of 0, 3 or 8%, and then 0% again. Superficial digital flexor tendon force was calculated as a relative value, with the amplitude of AIFP output voltage at initial 0% slope equal to 100. Out of 14 sets of experiments, AIFP data were analysed successfully in 9 at the trot, in 3 at the canter in the trailing forelimb on a slope of 3 and 8%, and in 2 at the canter in the leading forelimb on a slope of 3%. Increasing the incline from 0-8% tended to decrease peak force in the SDFT at the trot, and in the trailing forelimb at the canter. However, force in the SDFT was unchanged in the leading forelimb at the canter on the 3% incline. The force in the SDFT trotting or cantering uphill is unchanged or lower than that loaded at the same speed on a flat surface. Because at similar speeds the workload for uphill exercise is greater than on the flat, uphill running increases exercise intensity without increasing force in the SDFT.

Hope this clears things up.


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## the_nag (6 January 2017)

We have always trotted on the roads no facilities and hacking is mostly roads so trot for up to 10 mins at a time in suitable spots never had any issues


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## MagicMelon (6 January 2017)

I don't. I used to trot a bit on roads when I used to hack out as a child until my pony at the time came down with concussive laminitis. I still blame myself to this day. I only ever trot on the road now if I have to, like if a big lorry is coming and I want to get to a layby (my road is narrow) but even then I try to go on the verge. I very much limit trotting and cantering on hard summer ground as well.  Mine is unshod, if she were shod Id be even more careful. IMO, the concussion caused by shoes is horrific.


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## beginner_rider (6 January 2017)

Many studies done on this - a lot of people seem to be stuck in their ways of 'oh I used to do it all the time and my horse lived until 27 so how bad can it be' kind of thing, but no, it is not beneficial. Walking on the roads yes, trotting for more than a few minutes a day, no no no! The bone remodels in response to stress which is what causes the bone to become stronger but any more than a few more minutes a day, the osteocytes cannot remodel quick enough and it will cause permanent damage through micro-fractures.


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## ycbm (6 January 2017)

Total fractures aren't permanent, they rejoin, so how can microfractures  be permanent?  Can you point us to this evidence, please?


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## ycbm (6 January 2017)

MagicMelon said:



			I don't. I used to trot a bit on roads when I used to hack out as a child until my pony at the time came down with concussive laminitis. I still blame myself to this day. I only ever trot on the road now if I have to, like if a big lorry is coming and I want to get to a layby (my road is narrow) but even then I try to go on the verge. I very much limit trotting and cantering on hard summer ground as well.  Mine is unshod, if she were shod Id be even more careful. IMO, the concussion caused by shoes is horrific.
		
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There is a school of thought that concussion laminitis is normally only found in feet where the laminae are already compromised. I wouldn't blame yourself or the trotting.


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## ester (6 January 2017)

applecart14 said:



			Well my vet and physio must both be wrong then Popsdosh.

An abstract from this : https://www.researchgate.net/public...gital_flexor_tendon_forces_at_trot_and_canter

Also in the Equine Veterinary Journal :  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.2006.tb05583.x/abstract

One cause of overstrain injury to the superficial digital flexor tendon (SDFT) in horses is the force loaded on the SDFT during repeated running. Therefore, decreasing this force may reduce SDFT injury. It has been reported that strain on the SDFT decreases with a toe-wedge shoe. Uphill courses are used for training of racehorses, and the angle of hoof-sole to the horizon during uphill running is similar to that of the toe-wedge shoe. To determine the effects of uphill exercise on the force on the SDFT during trotting and cantering. Arthroscopically implantable force probes (AIFP) were implanted into the SDFT of the left or right forelimb of 7 Thoroughbred horses and AIFP output recorded during trotting and cantering on a treadmill inclined at slopes of 0, 3 or 8%, and then 0% again. Superficial digital flexor tendon force was calculated as a relative value, with the amplitude of AIFP output voltage at initial 0% slope equal to 100. Out of 14 sets of experiments, AIFP data were analysed successfully in 9 at the trot, in 3 at the canter in the trailing forelimb on a slope of 3 and 8%, and in 2 at the canter in the leading forelimb on a slope of 3%. Increasing the incline from 0-8% tended to decrease peak force in the SDFT at the trot, and in the trailing forelimb at the canter. However, force in the SDFT was unchanged in the leading forelimb at the canter on the 3% incline. The force in the SDFT trotting or cantering uphill is unchanged or lower than that loaded at the same speed on a flat surface. Because at similar speeds the workload for uphill exercise is greater than on the flat, uphill running increases exercise intensity without increasing force in the SDFT.

Hope this clears things up.
		
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That doesn't make any downhill comparisons though, just uphill versus flat. Popsdosh was talking about downhill?


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## windand rain (6 January 2017)

It depends on what you mean by trotting too, hammering along for hours is a bit different to trotting as part of a hack a controlled light in front trot is fine, and in my view better than on a surface where if it is even a little deep or frozen it is much harder on the legs. Lots of people dont have schools at their disposal and school at all paces while hacking. Trotting on the road is safer than on verges too unless you have gone out on foot prior to riding to check it out


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## ester (6 January 2017)

beginner_rider said:



			Many studies done on this - a lot of people seem to be stuck in their ways of 'oh I used to do it all the time and my horse lived until 27 so how bad can it be' kind of thing, but no, it is not beneficial. Walking on the roads yes, trotting for more than a few minutes a day, no no no! The bone remodels in response to stress which is what causes the bone to become stronger but any more than a few more minutes a day, the osteocytes cannot remodel quick enough and it will cause permanent damage through micro-fractures.
		
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If I only do every other day can I do twice as much?

Of course having had no school, baked clay ground and no access to off road riding I would likely have ended up with a fat, laminitic pony had I never got out of walk.... It also wasn't long ago we had a thread of users aghast at riding on verges either! 

As with most things equestrian, moderation and with all things taken into account.


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## milliepops (6 January 2017)

ester said:



			That doesn't make any downhill comparisons though, just uphill versus flat. Popsdosh was talking about downhill?
		
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yes, but it was in response to ACs post saying she trots uphill, never downhill, because of the reduced force on the tendons, so it was a rational response IMO 

I have also been told, many moons ago, that it's less concussive to trot uphill than on the flat or downhill so that's what I do.... though I could not point to any scientific papers  I feel it myself when running - harder, yes, but not as jarring!  (though I do accept my anatomy is quite different to my horses).  Plus our roads are so skiddy, the only safe place to trot is up the hills


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## ester (6 January 2017)

Ah, on the phone it is a PITA to try and scroll back through it all! 

I'm an uphiller too, when we are somewhere with hills . Otherwise it's just the motorway bridge.


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## Northern Hare (6 January 2017)

Apologies if this has already been raised on this thread, but I wonder if the horses' action also affects the amount of concussion caused by trotting on the road?

For example my horse is a TBxWB (25 yo) and has a quite a straight/pointy toe foreleg action, and on the odd occasion we do any roadwork, at every opportunity he wants to head off into trot and he seems to really enjoy it. He takes a good contact and feels like he's floating along, so I must admit I let him get on with it when we get to a safe stretch, but I don't let him trot downhill.

I used to have a horse who was quite upright through his shoulder and had a much shorter and choppier foreleg action, and I never trotted him on the road because it just felt like it was so jarring for his legs and feet.


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## amandaco2 (6 January 2017)

Crosshill Pacers said:



			When we bring our aged horses in now at the end of January/start of February if our track isn't dried out enough (or it's too frosty) then we'll start jogging them on the roads.  We start with 5 minutes of walk and 10 minutes of trot for the first week, then up it to 5 minutes of walk and 15 minutes of trot in the second week.  If we still can't get on our track, the third week is 5 walk/20 trot and so on and so forth until we're up to 5 walk/35 or 40 trot.

We keep to the back roads though as main roads are far too fast and busy.
		
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that's a lot quicker escalation of fitness work than ive ever done, are they totally unfit/ soft before starting the fitness programme?


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## Tnavas (6 January 2017)

beginner_rider said:



			Many studies done on this - a lot of people seem to be stuck in their ways of 'oh I used to do it all the time and my horse lived until 27 so how bad can it be' kind of thing, but no, it is not beneficial. Walking on the roads yes, trotting for more than a few minutes a day, no no no! The bone remodels in response to stress which is what causes the bone to become stronger but any more than a few more minutes a day, the osteocytes cannot remodel quick enough and it will cause permanent damage through micro-fractures.
		
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I think the 'proof is in the pudding' - all horses are different and all horses react to different conditions. The bones are remodelled totally every so often (can't remember time frame) I've worked in the equine industry for several decades, mostly with liveries and hunters and 1hr trotting on the roads was the norm with no lameness and this involves many, many horses.

What I have noticed since I moved to NZ is that very few do much road work and there seems to be far more lameness issues - therefore I believe that road work is beneficial for strengthening legs. Walking is great but does nothing to increase respiratory fitness. Steady 'hound jog' certainly works both for horse and rider. Many of the people I have worked for have complimented me on the fitness of their hunters.


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## Dave's Mam (6 January 2017)

I trot on the road.  I find a level surface much more forgiving than a knobbly, foot twisting baked soft surface, or a dragging deep surface.


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## Dave's Mam (6 January 2017)

amandaco2 said:



			that's a lot quicker escalation of fitness work than ive ever done, are they totally unfit/ soft before starting the fitness programme?
		
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It's perfect for a trotter.  These horses swing along at trot, not belting along in training.


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## Mike007 (6 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			What absolute rubbish. He's certainly no engineer!!  If you're having trouble breaking a rock you get a sledgehammer with a heavier head.

The presence of half a pound to a pound of metal on the end of a long lever most definitely makes an enormous difference to the overall force on the lever (limb).

If anyone wants the science on that, because it's not my personal unsubstantiated opinion, I'll gladly look it up for you.

He's spouting off his own personal opinion with no proof at all that any amount of trotting a barefoot horse on the road is damaging.
		
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Errr,No! as an engineer, A sledge hammer handle is not a lever . iT is merely a way of swinging a heavy object so that the loads on the users body are kept to a minimum whilst giving the heavy object time to reach its maximum speed before impact. The kinetic energy of the shoe striking the road does not in any way harm the horse .IT HARMS THE ROAD, in exactly the way a sledge hammer breaks a rock. I am more concerned that the tissues of the foot are indirect contact with the steel and recieve the shockwaves from the impact. Leverage and load on tendons is a complete red herring.


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## Tnavas (7 January 2017)

Crosshill Pacers said:



			When we bring our aged horses in now at the end of January/start of February if our track isn't dried out enough (or it's too frosty) then we'll start jogging them on the roads.  We start with 5 minutes of walk and 10 minutes of trot for the first week, then up it to 5 minutes of walk and 15 minutes of trot in the second week.  If we still can't get on our track, the third week is 5 walk/20 trot and so on and so forth until we're up to 5 walk/35 or 40 trot.

We keep to the back roads though as main roads are far too fast and busy.
		
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How long have they been out of work for? Generally the first week would be 30 mins walking increasing to 45 - 60 mins by the end of the first week, then week two includes short period of trot - 10 min walk - 5min trot again building up to an hour by the end of the week, Week three more extended periods of trot with decreasing amounts of walk between, by week 5 trotting one hour with short periods of canter, schooling, hill work.

Walking the first week really hardens up the legs


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## ycbm (7 January 2017)

Mike007 said:



			Errr,No! as an engineer, A sledge hammer handle is not a lever . iT is merely a way of swinging a heavy object so that the loads on the users body are kept to a minimum whilst giving the heavy object time to reach its maximum speed before impact. The kinetic energy of the shoe striking the road does not in any way harm the horse .IT HARMS THE ROAD, in exactly the way a sledge hammer breaks a rock. I am more concerned that the tissues of the foot are indirect contact with the steel and recieve the shockwaves from the impact. Leverage and load on tendons is a complete red herring.
		
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I never mentioned leverage or load on tendons. I was referring, as you are, to conclusive forces on bones and joints. My information came from a Chartered Engineer. I googled it too, to check it out before I wrote it.  Replace lever with pole if it makes you happier.


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## DabDab (7 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			I never mentioned leverage or load on tendons. I was referring, as you are, to conclusive forces on bones and joints. My information came from a Chartered Engineer. I googled it too, to check it out before I wrote it.  Replace lever with pole if it makes you happier.
		
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There is greater dynamic force (momentum) up through the limb as the leg (lever) is swung with the greater mass on the end of it from the shoe. But (and I haven't done the calculations, I'm just thinking about how the average horse moves), I shouldn't think that much of that extra momentum is in play by the time the horse's foot contacts the ground, unless the horse has a very strange movement.

But you're right though - the guy in this study definitely is not an engineer. Not because of the increased mass aspect but because of the modulus of elasticity of steel in comparison to that of hoof. The nature and way that forces and waveforms are dissipated through steel are profoundly different to how they are dissipated through the natural hoof structures. That in combination with the pressure-point shape of the shoe will mean that there is a different concussive impact on the legs in a shod horse from a barefoot one. 

To say that there is only a difference in the hoof but not in the concussive force through the leg is just daft - the two are connected through dynamic, force transmitting structures.


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## FfionWinnie (7 January 2017)

Mike007 said:



			Errr,No! as an engineer, A sledge hammer handle is not a lever . iT is merely a way of swinging a heavy object so that the loads on the users body are kept to a minimum whilst giving the heavy object time to reach its maximum speed before impact. The kinetic energy of the shoe striking the road does not in any way harm the horse .IT HARMS THE ROAD, in exactly the way a sledge hammer breaks a rock. I am more concerned that the tissues of the foot are indirect contact with the steel and recieve the shockwaves from the impact. Leverage and load on tendons is a complete red herring.
		
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You don't have to be an engineer to know that suggesting it "harms the road" and not the horse is complete bunkum.


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## FfionWinnie (7 January 2017)

If it didn't matter or made no difference to the body then we would see people out running in Tackety boots rather than shoes designed to absorb the concussion and support the foot oh just like a barefoot on a horse is designed to do. To compare that marvellous structure to a metal band is just ridiculous. 

I know myself I stupidly started running while out walking a horse so not wearing the correct footwear. I had sore shins and heels immediately.  Had to stop for 2 weeks and restart with trainers on and I am fine.


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## Tnavas (7 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			If it didn't matter or made no difference to the body then we would see people out running in Tackety boots rather than shoes designed to absorb the concussion and support the foot oh just like a barefoot on a horse is designed to do. To compare that marvellous structure to a metal band is just ridiculous. 

I know myself I stupidly started running while out walking a horse so not wearing the correct footwear. I had sore shins and heels immediately.  Had to stop for 2 weeks and restart with trainers on and I am fine.
		
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If you had walked for a couple of weeks, then done short runs interspersed with walks no matter what you wore on your feet you would not have suffered from sore shins! You did not prepare your body first for the work level you wanted to do. 

As many of the older folk on here have said - they have trotted on the road for an hour or so at a time and have sound, strong footed horses.

I know that the barefoot horse would not be able to get to the level of fitness that hunters need to be - they have to be able to gallop fast, AND be able to do so several hours into a meet. There feet would be worn away after the first couple of weeks road work.


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## FfionWinnie (7 January 2017)

I didn't walk the second time either that was the point I was making. Amazing how my horses feet haven't worn away. Must be 'cause I conditioned them to the work load 

Frankly I don't care if people want to shoe their horses, it's up to them. 

My point is you cannot surely believe it's just the same concussion on the feet and limbs whatever you do with the end of the feet. Heads out sand - of course it cannot possibly BE the same.


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## DabDab (7 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			You don't have to be an engineer to know that suggesting it "harms the road" and not the horse is complete bunkum.
		
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Well quite


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## ycbm (7 January 2017)

Tnavas said:



			I know that the barefoot horse would not be able to get to the level of fitness that hunters need to be - they have to be able to gallop fast, AND be able to do so several hours into a meet. There feet would be worn away after the first couple of weeks road work.
		
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There are plenty of barefoot horses hunting.

Have you also somehow missed hearing about barefoot horses doing long distance?


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## Goldenstar (7 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			There are plenty of barefoot horses hunting.

Have you also somehow missed hearing about barefoot horses doing long distance?
		
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Yes but they don't do thirty mile endurance rider twice a week that's what my hunters do


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## ester (7 January 2017)

I've never had the finances or holiday to try twice a week so can't let you know on that front  and it wouldn't be fair on a 23 yo either. 

Tnavas actually said they couldn't get to the level of fitness as opposed to they couldn't do the job. I think it is perfectly possible to get them to that level of fitness. With regards to the job it must also depend a bit on your country, only done two but very different amounts of roadwork, one quite a bit but all flat Tarmac, the other barely none but sometimes a fair amount of stoney byway depending on the meet.


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## Regandal (7 January 2017)

I'm sure there's a few ex-Rockley horses that hunt 'full time'. I think they keep a record of the miles done on the blog.


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## SusannaF (7 January 2017)

There are a lot of ways for horses to lame themselves in the wild (fighting would be one of them). I saw a pretty lame Przewalski stallion in Mongolia *could have been from running over relatively rocky upland or a slip on grass or fighting or... Generally adult horses are too big to be eaten by the local wolves though  they would have to be very lame indeed.


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## southerncomfort (7 January 2017)

http://www.wildabouthooves.com.au/pages/endurance.htm


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## ycbm (7 January 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			Yes but they don't do thirty mile endurance rider twice a week that's what my hunters do
		
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You barefoot hunted your guy one day a week without any problems, or that's what you told me at the time when you had asked for my help by PM.

It was doubling the hunting to twice a week in one step, as I recall, that caused the issues. No-one has any idea what would have happened if it had been possible (it isn't) to do the increase more slowly.

There are barefoot horses in endurance doing more mileage than your hunters. I'm not saying they all can do it, I'm simply responding to Tnavas' statement that getting a horse hunting fit would wear out its feet. 

Since I've done exactly that myself with 100% road work on multiple horses, I know that's not true.


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## Mike007 (7 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			You don't have to be an engineer to know that suggesting it "harms the road" and not the horse is complete bunkum.
		
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I was referring to the kinetic energy of the shoe as a comparison to the kinetic energy of sledgehammer head  striking a rock .The energy is directed into the object they hit .


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## FfionWinnie (7 January 2017)

Mike007 said:



			I was referring to the kinetic energy of the shoe as a comparison to the kinetic energy of sledgehammer head  striking a rock .The energy is directed into the object they hit .
		
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Every fencing contractor I know has a sore leading shoulder and back from wielding a sledgehammer or similar.


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## ycbm (7 January 2017)

Mike007 said:



			I was referring to the kinetic energy of the shoe as a comparison to the kinetic energy of sledgehammer head  striking a rock .The energy is directed into the object they hit .
		
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Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Newton's third law.


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## Mike007 (7 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Every fencing contractor I know has a sore leading shoulder and back from wielding a sledgehammer or similar.
		
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No doubt ,but it is not the sledgehammer striking the post that does the damage .It is the period before the impact when the user is trying to accelerate the hammer head. Poor technique is the problem ,not letting the hammer do the work .


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## DabDab (7 January 2017)

This sledgehammer analogy is silly. Kinetic energy is all in the movement of the hammer, and then when that movement is suddenly stopped as it impacts an immovable object the sum of the energy has to instantaneously be dissipated through the two bodies (hammer and immovable object), or through heat or sound. If one of the items experiences forces in the impact that causes it to break then that does not mean that no forces were absorbed by the other body. If you hit someone in the face you may break their nose but it will probably also hurt your hand. 

However, this is irrelevant because the horseshoe is not part of the horse's foot. At the point that the hoof hits the road there are two impacts happening simultaneously - one between shoe and road and one between shoe and hoof. Shod horses are in effect always trotting on a metal surface that is sprung to a greater or lesser extent (depending on whether you're riding on sand, tarmac etc.)


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## Tnavas (7 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			I didn't walk the second time either that was the point I was making. Amazing how my horses feet haven't worn away. Must be 'cause I conditioned them to the work load 

Frankly I don't care if people want to shoe their horses, it's up to them. 

My point is you cannot surely believe it's just the same concussion on the feet and limbs whatever you do with the end of the feet. Heads out sand - of course it cannot possibly BE the same.
		
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Why do people shoe their horses? Its to protect their precious feet from the wear and tear of their work load and the terrain they have to work on. My girl has been unshod all her life - yet when her work load increased prior to HOY she went footsore and I ended up having her shod.

We must all know what it feels like when you break a nail down to the live area - it is extremely painful. It depends very much on the terrain you work over, we have areas in NZ which are pumice - extremely wearing - areas where rivers used to run millions of years ago full of pebbles and boulders. Massive areas of peat where the ground is always soft. 

FfionWinnie - Mike 007 is correct - the tar seal is only semi solid - it moves, it absorbs and  is abrasive too, it dents and damages, rain and snow can make holes in it. Concrete on the other hand is unyielding.

Again from decades of experience with a multitude of horses - they stayed sound, didn't suffer from stone bruises like the horses that live and work on grass. Road work toughens up feet and limbs.


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## tallyho! (7 January 2017)

SusannaF said:



			There are a lot of ways for horses to lame themselves in the wild (fighting would be one of them). I saw a pretty lame Przewalski stallion in Mongolia *could have been from running over relatively rocky upland or a slip on grass or fighting or... Generally adult horses are too big to be eaten by the local wolves though  they would have to be very lame indeed.
		
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Most horses recover. If you watch the film "Cloud the Stallion" you will see that they are always injuring themselves - they're wild! All wild animals get injured but they heal and live their lives. If there no wolves, and they stay lame (hoof, leg, whatever) then they don't keep up with the herd and either starve or get beaten up by the next lot of horses - life's tough for them.


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## ester (7 January 2017)

I've just realised that no, I don't think I have ever broken a nail


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## tallyho! (7 January 2017)

Northern Hare said:



			Apologies if this has already been raised on this thread, but I wonder if the horses' action also affects the amount of concussion caused by trotting on the road?

For example my horse is a TBxWB (25 yo) and has a quite a straight/pointy toe foreleg action, and on the odd occasion we do any roadwork, at every opportunity he wants to head off into trot and he seems to really enjoy it. He takes a good contact and feels like he's floating along, so I must admit I let him get on with it when we get to a safe stretch, but I don't let him trot downhill.

I used to have a horse who was quite upright through his shoulder and had a much shorter and choppier foreleg action, and I never trotted him on the road because it just felt like it was so jarring for his legs and feet.
		
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Yes definitely! I pull my mare up if she sets off on a downward-going trot - it feels horrible anyway. Most of the time I can feel if she's ready to trot, you can feel the engine revving and yes I agree with you, it does feel like you're floating along. Better to let her trot like that than make her pull herself along. I too had a gelding that had a fairly upright shoulder and that choppiness did go once he was engaged - took longer than mare who has better angles but principle the same.

Also, I think some horses trot downhill better than they walk and vice-versa - I have two related horses, same breed, same age and they are both so different in their gaits. I do believe that you have take each horse for it's merits and work to its advantage.


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## Crosshill Pacers (8 January 2017)

Tnavas said:



			How long have they been out of work for? Generally the first week would be 30 mins walking increasing to 45 - 60 mins by the end of the first week, then week two includes short period of trot - 10 min walk - 5min trot again building up to an hour by the end of the week, Week three more extended periods of trot with decreasing amounts of walk between, by week 5 trotting one hour with short periods of canter, schooling, hill work.

Walking the first week really hardens up the legs
		
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They'll have come out of work in September and then start again in February - my OH generally does walk them for the first few days before starting the 5/10, then 5/15 etc.  We never canter them, all the slow miles at home are in trot, and they do no more than 40 minutes a day (with 5 minutes walk at the start and 5 minutes at the end), 6 days a week.  They do their pacing work at the racetrack once they've been in work around 8 weeks.  The only exception is one mare we're racing again this summer, she does all her slow work at home free-legged pacing as that's the gait she seems to favour.

It's looking as though we'll be able to start using our track this week as it's drained well so hopefully no roadwork at all this year.


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## tallyho! (8 January 2017)

Tnavas said:



			Why do people shoe their horses? Its to protect their precious feet from the wear and tear of their work load and the terrain they have to work on. My girl has been unshod all her life - yet when her work load increased prior to HOY she went footsore and I ended up having her shod.
		
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I'm not sure about that Tnavas... I think shoes were a necessity from a bad diet... you also said roadwork is good for the feet, and I agree with you on that.

My three horses work most days of the week in summer on tarmac and on rocky track and I need to trim even more often because of it.


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## FfionWinnie (8 January 2017)

tallyho! said:



			I'm not sure about that Tnavas... I think shoes were a necessity from a bad diet... you also said roadwork is good for the feet, and I agree with you on that.
		
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Agreed. I can't be special in that I've taken loads of horses BF now without any issues. Currently taking a warmblood who has been shod all his working life and is now 18, BF and it's as smooth as silk so far. The right diet and sensible exercise.  Incidentally this horse hates the farrier and has had to be sedated to be touched by one. So for his own good, I'll get him comfortably BF. 

Yes you can *temporarily* "wear their feet out" by doing too much too soon, but the good news is their feet grow back so all you have to do is cut back the abrasive work until the feet get the grow faster message and or get some boots. All of mine had been 100% sound over all terrain covering 70-100km per week without boots or shoes. There's no reason why they couldn't do more than that if I had the time, their feet would just grow faster to compensate.


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## maree t (8 January 2017)

If the increase in workload is gradual the horses will grow horn quicker . My kids have hunted barefoot and my daughter is working through the ranks with a TB x ISH, barefoot and very happy with it . Yes he does plenty of roadwork , we dont have a school !!! We have 4   bare , none of them have worn their feet out so far . No boots in sight either although I would use them rather than shoes if possible


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## tristar (9 January 2017)

we have a horse who people would say what good feet he has.

when he first went on the road he was shod, but he started to lose his shoes, all of his shoes!, sometimes the day after shoeing one would `fall off` then the rest followed, sometimes i  had to take them off because they were loose.

so i gave up because it was too much grief, he has been barefoot 4months and has never looked back is improving all the time, his feet are larger and returning to a good shape, last week he went on a two hour ride including rocky tracks, which i would have been careful with a shod horse, he had no shortness of stride at all.

so he must have excellent feet, is the common sense conclusion, what i want to know is why the shoes all fell off! i`m talking here about three different farriers, and i can say the relief at not seeing moaning farriers is also a lovely side effect of not shoeing, a happier horse and a peaceful life!


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## amandaco2 (9 January 2017)

I wonder if we wore mental shoes rather than trainers and then did a lot of running on the roads we would notice a difference in how our legs/joints feel?


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## tallyho! (9 January 2017)

amandaco2 said:



			I wonder if we wore mental shoes rather than trainers and then did a lot of running on the roads we would notice a difference in how our legs/joints feel?
		
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Never mind me joints, I think me teeth would fall out before any joints were affected!!


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## amandaco2 (9 January 2017)

tallyho! said:



			Never mind me joints, I think me teeth would fall out before any joints were affected!!
		
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perhaps those who feel it makes no difference to a horses legs should be keen to wear such metal shoes and do some running on roads..see how much damage they can inflict on that tarmac...


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## Tnavas (9 January 2017)

amandaco2 said:



			perhaps those who feel it makes no difference to a horses legs should be keen to wear such metal shoes and do some running on roads..see how much damage they can inflict on that tarmac...
		
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From one who is currently waiting to have knees replaced, DON'T RUN, I did and wore all the cartilage away! Walking is just as good for you and doesn't wear your joints away


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## Mike007 (10 January 2017)

amandaco2 said:



			I wonder if we wore mental shoes rather than trainers and then did a lot of running on the roads we would notice a difference in how our legs/joints feel?
		
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I dont know about metal shoes but I have done (in the dim distant past) a fair amount of running in DMS army boots . I found that it was no different from running barefoot ,impactwise ,but the weight of the boot was the killer during the "period of suspension".The sudden reverse of direction as the foot was lifted .The trick was to shorten your stride into a short stepping but faster pace. Down hill however was an entirely different matter ,and one my colleagues didnt figure out.If you launched yourself into the longest leap (hardly a stride ) you could cover twice the distance in a stride and slow down the rate you had to move your leg . This enabled me to move from somewhere at the back , overtake about 100 guys and then hang on back up what we called Cardiac hill. We went over to trainers later and to be honest I found no advantage . Up hill you run on your toes and any cushioning effect of the trainer is negligible,down hill , you hit hard on your heal and the trainer is again almost useless. It is purely the difference in weight of the trainer and boot during the period of suspension.


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## Zipzop (10 January 2017)

Running on the roads is not good for humans (huge increase in knee replacements in younger people due to the popularity of running) it's no different for horses. If running on the roads is no good for us, then running on the roads is no good for the horses either - I cringe when I hear a horse and trap hammering down the road.


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## Tnavas (10 January 2017)

Zipzop said:



			Running on the roads is not good for humans (huge increase in knee replacements in younger people due to the popularity of running) it's no different for horses. If running on the roads is no good for us, then running on the roads is no good for the horses either - I cringe when I hear a horse and trap hammering down the road. 

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Totally different anatomy!


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## Zipzop (10 January 2017)

Tnavas said:



			Totally different anatomy!
		
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It's not a question of anatomy. They still have the same structures inside the leg as humans and the potential for the same problems


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## Tnavas (10 January 2017)

Zipzop said:



			It's not a question of anatomy. They still have the same structures inside the leg as humans and the potential for the same problems
		
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No not quite - they are trotting on the equivalent of our arms, into a shoulder that is hung in muscle - with no collar bone to make the structure rigid. The equivalent of our leg is the hind leg and the are running on a toe, not a foot like us. With the hock joint also absorbing impact. They have four limbs to spread the load over - we have but two bearing all the weigh of our bodies.


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