# Shooting a horse



## Kenzo (11 May 2010)

Following on from the horse meat thread. 

(sorry I know this is not a pleasant subject, please don't read if you will find it upsetting)


But I do like to know the in's and out's of everything otherwise I will always wonder and its not something I like to wonder about.

If destroying a horse in the above way do the vets use a different method than the hunt, local knacker man and finally the large scale abattoirs?

By this I mean the use of either bell gun or the captive bolt which only really stuns them because the skull is too hard, but if the captive bolt they should be bled out like beef cattle (although the other reasons for doing this is down to the meat etc). 

And, what is an ILPH approved abattoir, for example Potters is.

This is not a debate about if horses should be PTS this way, I'm just interested in how people can be sure that it's done correctly and all above board etc who ever you choose to do it.


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## touchstone (11 May 2010)

I've been with three horses as they were shot, once by the knackerman and twice by the vet.  On all occasions a free bullet was used; I wouldn't be happy with captive bolt on mine tbh.


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## RuthnMeg (11 May 2010)

A free bullet was used on all the horses I've had the dealings with sadly. 2 have been mine, others were accidents at competitions and not my horses. All but one was a vet. The other was the hunt kennel man.


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## JoG (11 May 2010)

Ditto - Marcus was done with a bullet. Fair amount of blood from his nostrils


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## Kenzo (11 May 2010)

Right ok.

When I had my last one PTS (I had to walk away, it was just too much for me to take in) but my dad stayed with him and he said they the guy used a gun, but with not being there I'd often wondered, I think next time (which I suppose one day it will happen) I'd like to stick around and see it being done, which i know will be terrible to watch but to me its better than not knowing what goes on (if you can make sense of that).


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## charlie76 (11 May 2010)

with all the ones I have been with the difference between shooting and injection is that the injection stops the heart so the horse just crumples to the floor where as when you shoot the horse it goes into the brain/nervous system so the horses scramble about as they go down and twitch a lot more as the systems shut down. 
The horse is unaware of all of this but it can look more upsetting for the owner.


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## JoG (11 May 2010)

I had to watch marcus (chestnut on right of my sig) being done.  I had to hold him and I had to pat him afterwards - it wouldn't have felt right otherwise   If you want me to let you know what to expect drop me a PM.  

I would suggest you put ear plugs in.  My ears were ringing for the rest of the day from the noise of the gun


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## FionaMc (11 May 2010)

Kenzo said:



			Right ok.

When I had my last one PTS (I had to walk away, it was just too much for me to take in) but my dad stayed with him and he said they the guy used a gun, but with not being there I'd often wondered, I think next time (which I suppose one day it will happen) I'd like to stick around and see it being done, which i know will be terrible to watch but to me its better than not knowing what goes on (if you can make sense of that).
		
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I totally know what you mean - I've never seen a horse PTS but, given that I've had my current horse for 12 years and know she has a home for life, I want to be prepared to be with her when it happens, but like you, I want to know what to expect and what's normal, so that I know everything is as it should be. It's scary, but I think another responsibility I owe my horse when it comes to it.


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## milliepops (11 May 2010)

charlie76 said:



			with all the ones I have been with the difference between shooting and injection is that the injection stops the heart so the horse just crumples to the floor where as when you shoot the horse it goes into the brain/nervous system so the horses scramble about as they go down and twitch a lot more as the systems shut down. 
The horse is unaware of all of this but it can look more upsetting for the owner.
		
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Funny, cos my experiences were the complete opposite.  

Sorry OP, can't answer your question directly but I have seen several put down by local knacker with a gun - they all went straight to the ground and bled a lot.


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## MontyandZoom (11 May 2010)

I actually totally get this!! ( I have a strange brain too! ).

I decided to have Monty boy shot by the knackerman instead of having the vet (vet was a bit miffed but hey ho). To me, it seemed like the cleanest and quickest way for him to go. I had an indepth chat with the knackerman which felt very odd, but to me, I NEEDED to know every little detail of how things would pan out. I felt strongly that I owed it to Monty to stay until the end.

As is happens, I decided on my OH's and the farmer's advice not to stay with him. This was because he was easily distressed and my presence would not have helped (crying hysterically and flailing.......didn't expect to be like that but shamefully, I was ). However, the fact that I knew exactly where he would stand etc was important to me. We walked away and listened for the shot.

I can't really see the place for a captive bolt with horses.....I mean it's always got to be the cleanest method, be it a meat horse or a companion. That said, I've never seen it done so who knows.

God, my pointless ramblings are beginning to reach Kenzo-proportions!


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## precious1 (11 May 2010)

Ive never yet had to have one of my horses PTS and hopefully wnt have to for a long time to come. 
my friends have and all have used the injection by the vet which was very peacefull, like others have said no real body reactions compared to gun method.


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## Nickie (11 May 2010)

Somebody once told me that a young horse has a strong heart therefore when you put a horse to sleep by lethal injection it's body will fight the injection for a bit longer whereas a bullet is instant.  

If the horse was really poorly I think I would go for the injection but if it was a young horse that say broke its leg, I think I would go for the bullet.  

It's one of those decisions you hope you will never have to make but you always have it stored in the back of your head just in case


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## Kenzo (11 May 2010)

MontyandZoom said:



			God, my pointless ramblings are beginning to reach Kenzo-proportions!   

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Oh dear, that means you'll be needing a bullet soon 



On a serious note though, I too thought I could stay with him but it was suggested (or should I say drilled into me) by my dad, OH and fellow livery that I was in the right mental state to deal with it, as I'd just lost my mum 2 months before and I wouldnt of got the image out of my head, the last one I had was of me leading him out of the field and letting in grass in the spot where he was to to taken out, then left him with my dad, even my dad didnt take it very well, so I'd of never have coped back then, but now I think I would, I'd at least want to try as the torment of not knowing can be equally as bad.


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## marmalade76 (11 May 2010)

Found this when looking at the options for my horse when the time comes (he is on borrowed time). 

DON'T WATCH IF EASILY UPSET!

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/f/CAMPAIGNS/blog//4//?be_id=92


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## BBP (11 May 2010)

I think you did the right thing, it was important to me that my little girl didn't know that anything strange was going on.  If I had thought I couldn't hold it together I wouldnt have held her, but I figured there was plenty of time for me to cry afterwards, it wasn't fair on her to do it before.  She had had the vet out several times so that was nothing new.  I held her (having spent the day plaiting her up to look gorgeous), patted her and fed her pears as it was done (injection not bullet so can't help you there).  It was mega fast, she staggered backwards, collapsed her back end and then died before her front end hit the ground and was absolutely still, all within 2 seconds.  I held her head and kept her eyes covered for a few minutes just in case (if not actually dead, the blink reflex is gone so would not be able to block out the sun).

Then I went home and cried for weeks!


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## Clodagh (11 May 2010)

I don't think the captive bolt is used anymore on horses, if anyone did they would be very old fashioned.
Injection on an elderly or in pain or shock horse doesn't work very well as the circulation is already closing down. Gun is surer as long as the person holding it knows what they are doing, get someone recommended by word of mouth! Knackermen are the best, or nice experienced huntsmen as they know what they are doing.


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## lachlanandmarcus (11 May 2010)

my friends pony was PTS last year but injection and it took her half an hour to go. Not nice...

She was not specially old tho so, I think the view of shooting younger horses or injured ones but injecting very old weak ones has some merit.

I would prefer a hunt kennels to shoot my old hunter and have him but theres not really any hunts in my area of NE Scotland. But would prefer the gun, the messy stuff is after they are dead which is my problem not the horses whereas with the injection it can be the horse suffering. 

So gun for me.


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## reindeerlover (11 May 2010)

marmalade76 said:



			Found this when looking at the options for my horse when the time comes (he is on borrowed time). 

DON'T WATCH IF EASILY UPSET!

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/f/CAMPAIGNS/blog//4//?be_id=92

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You see, I think that looks fine. The pony is relaxed, nobody is hurting him or scaring him. He obviously dies quickly, the shaking when he's on the floor is purely the nervous system and muscle twitching. I have always had mine injected but I don't have a problem with shooting.


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## charlie76 (11 May 2010)

Can't see anything wrong with the video, men quiet with the horse, horse had no idea, quicky shot, cleared up afterwards.


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## Indy (11 May 2010)

I've held 4 horses to be PTS.  3 were my own and 1 was a gypsy pony in a RTA which I held because the attending police officers didn't want to do it.

Chloe and Blue were by bullet - it was quick and clean, not a lot of blood involved for either of them.

Indy and the gypsy pony were by injection - again both times quick and clean.

The worst for me was Indy because he was stood and looking absolutely perfectly healthy and beautiful- you wouldn't have realised anything was wrong.  Chloe, Blue and the gypsy pony - it was obvious they needed immediate attention.

I can't comment which is the best method because for me they both were painless and quick.  The only thing is if you have the injection it costs more to have the body taken away.  Although if you were cremating that wouldn't be the case.

The other thing I would say is once it's done walk away.  I watched Indy being winched into the transporter and it's the first thing I think of when I think of my beautiful boy.  I never stayed for the others.


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## marmalade76 (11 May 2010)

It will be the gun for my horse too - I have also heard stories about lethal injections taking some time to work. It will be the hunt for mine, they will come and shoot him at home and he won't know anything about it. I don't think I will be able to be there myself though.


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## Cocoa (11 May 2010)

The captive bolt is usually only used on horses these days in situations where it is not possible to use a free bullet, such as on an aeroplane (if the horse panics or injures itself very severly)where free bullets are not allowed due to risk of damage to the aeroplane.

Unfortunately as every horse is different you can get the horrible movement with either the bullet or injection but the bullet is the quickest method of killing a horse, if done properly (bullet is supposed to travel through the brain into the spinal cord). The injection can take some time to stop the heart and as others have said the horses body naturally fights against it (which is one of the reasons why the vets give a sedative/muscle relaxant along with the lethal dose, to try and prevent the obvious signs of struggle). Personal preference but I would choose to have my horses shot as I believe this is quickest and causes least suffering to them.


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## Cocoa (11 May 2010)

Kenzo said:



			And, what is an ILPH approved abattoir, for example Potters is.
		
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I am hazarding a guess that this means WHW (ILPH) have assessed the abattoir and have given them approval under their welfare standards?!


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## TheMule (11 May 2010)

I've seen plenty done at an abbatoir and it's very, very quick, I've never seen it go wrong or not be instant. They do twitch and can carry on twitching for a while- 1 was even twitching and it's tail was flicking over once it's head had been cut off.
They bleed them as soon as theyre hitched up by the hindlegs and then the head is off within minutes.


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## Donkeymad (11 May 2010)

Sorry, but the captive bolt can and does easily kill them instantly and outright, with some bleeding but not masses. No further action is required after (bleeding out)


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## Bowen4Horses (11 May 2010)

JoG said:



			I had to watch marcus (chestnut on right of my sig) being done.  I had to hold him and I had to pat him afterwards - it wouldn't have felt right otherwise
		
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i'm actually crying here... 

poor you. poor marcus. it's horrible to think how close raff came to that. ((hugs))


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## peanut (11 May 2010)

I'm reading this thread (but can't bring myself to watch the video) because I know one day I'll have to make the decision for my horse, but from all your replies I still don't know what I'd choose.


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## Kenzo (11 May 2010)

Donkeymad said:



			Sorry, but the captive bolt can and does easily kill them instantly and outright, with some bleeding but not masses. No further action is required after (bleeding out)
		
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I think that depends on the type used though, there is a penetrating captive bolt and a nonpenetrating captive bolt, one will kill out right if used correctly, the other will only stun the horse, it won't kill the horse straight away.


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## Ditchjumper2 (11 May 2010)

The horse I held was shot by the kennel man and he was dead before he hit the ground. No twitching and not much blood. I was very impressed. Personally I think the worse part is the winching them in the trailer. I held him but kept out of the way of the winching part.


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## tibby (11 May 2010)

I work for my family's pet cremation business and have collected many horses and ponies, I have witnessed several being pts, I always ask the owners to walk away while we winch into the trailer as there is no nice way to do this, and I would hate the owners to have this as their last image of their best friend.


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## galaxy (11 May 2010)

I had my boy PTS by injection last year.  I heard stories of sometimes the bullet not getting the right place and having to be done twice, so would have chosen needle anyway.

He was ill, but not critical, it was about to go that way and I wanted it done before it did.  It was very peaceful, he swayed and went down.  I sat by his head, I wanted to be the last person he saw, one minute he was looking at me and the next he wasn't.  I knew he was gone.  Only took a minute, I couldn't tell you, it certainly wasn't long.  I could tell from his eyes he was in no pain or distress.  I wouldn't hesitate to have it done again.


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## Serenity087 (11 May 2010)

My baby girl was pts with injection.  She was so full of medication that she was dead before she hit the floor.  Very sad.

RE: what to do afterwards - my vets were fab, they let me hug her for ages and then produced a pair of scissors and a tarpaulin.  The scissors were for me to take a lock of her mane and tail, the tarpaulin was to cover her.  I asked if I could do it and they said yes, so I covered her up and walked away.

Worst thing I've ever had to do.

Also, I'd have a good think about where you'd have them PTS, and if you have any other horses.  Carrie was PTS at the hospital and it was horrific trying to drive home afterwards.  Emma was PTS on the yard, and we were able to let Milo see her and realise his Mummy was gone, but it means Mum will always associate the yard with what happened (she actually had to organise another liveries horse being PTS on the same yard, so she hasn't had much luck!).
However, even though Carrie died off site, her empty stable drove me mad.

So many things to think about, I promise you, the gun/injection debate is the least of your worries!


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## JoG (11 May 2010)

clipcloppop said:



			i'm actually crying here... 

poor you. poor marcus. it's horrible to think how close raff came to that. ((hugs))
		
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Sorry chick, didn't mean to do that .  T was an absolute star and was standing next to me literally holding me up, then we had a fag and realised neither of us could actually hear a thing!  Wasn't till I was in the car that I cried.

It just had to me that held him though, Marcus went through so much pain becuase i wasn't told how bad his joints were when I got him, it only seemed fair to be with him at the end, as my thank you to him.

An owner who knows when it's right for their horse and makes sure that they have someone they know with them at the time is, IMO, a responsible and caring owner


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## RobinHood (11 May 2010)

I've watched many horses being shot at an abattoir and I'm going to admit that I'm fascinated by watching as it's unbelievable how quickly they go down. It's so quick they're on the floor before you're registered the gunshot. 

Sorry if this is going too far but I know for some people knowing the details makes it easier to deal with. Regarding the speed of dispatch, if you touch the eyeball immediately afterwards there is no blink reflex showing the horse is completely brain dead. The horse is then hoisted up by the hindlegs and the blood collected for use in tissue culture etc. The reflexes do continue for a long period of time, for example the legs still kick when the carcass is sawed in half and peristalsis in the gut continues long after it is all removed from the horse. 

Having dissected brains at the abattoir I can vouch the the accuracy of the rifleman. Every single time he was spot on and has completely destroyed the regions responsible for consciousness, cardiovascular system and respiratory system, even in the feral horses which are shot loose.

For my own pet horses I would choose for them to be shot at home by an experienced knackerman, however I have been very impressed by what I've seen at the abattoir and would be very happy to send one of my horses there.


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## Cedars (11 May 2010)

Sorry if this is a really stupid question but why is the head cut off?

I think bullet for injuries and emergencies, injection for everything else. xxxx


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## Irishcobs (11 May 2010)

I have had 2 horses pts by injection. First one I was doing my GCSEs at the time and didn't know anything about it till I had finished my exam by which time it was over and done with. Mum went with what the vet said was best.
The second horse I was there but again went with the vets decision. I was 17 and the horse was 17 and ill with colic.
The horse dropped fairly quickly and the vet told me she was gone by listening to her heart. About 10 mins afterwards I went to chuck a rug over the body and she grunted and her head/neck tensed. The vet said it was just the nerve reacting, she was dead. But I have taken the vision with me.

Last year I took a friends old pony to the kennels to be shot. I wanted to see a horse being shot as I wanted to make up my own mind about it. 
The kennelsman held the pony himself, he said it's so he knows if it's about to move etc, and used a pistol of some sort (I could find out if anyone wants to know what type it was), firing a free bullet. As we heard the bang the pony hit the ground, she was dead you could tell that but it took 30secs or so before the heart stopped trying to pump the blood round the body. You could see it going up her jugular. There was a bit of blood but not as much as I thought there would be.

I now know when I have to make the choice it will be a bullet and the body, if it can be, will go to the kennels.


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## Dolcé (11 May 2010)

Many years ago I held one of the riding school horses at the abbatoir.. They used a captive bolt and it was instantaneous, his throat was cut and he was bled out. It isn't very nice but it is very necessary which ever way you choose and I truly believe it is the final gift you can give to your horse.  I think with my babies I would prefer injection so I could be feeding them treats as they go but practically I would have to think about disposal costs.  I also 'like' the thought of the huntsman as to me it is a more 'fitting' way than just a vet doing it.


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## Laura2408 (11 May 2010)

I held one a few weeks ago for a good friend who couldnt stand to be there.

It was quick and he new nothing about it. To be honest I was more worried about all 19hh of him falling on me if anything.
Everything was done in a proffesional way and he was took away within 30mins of it being done. 

Another friend of mine had hers injected and it cost her £800 for removal and cremation. Its not something I often think about but I have wondered where one would just get that sort of money in an emergency.


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## Pearlsasinger (11 May 2010)

charlie76 said:



			with all the ones I have been with the difference between shooting and injection is that the injection stops the heart so the horse just crumples to the floor where as when you shoot the horse it goes into the brain/nervous system so the horses scramble about as they go down and twitch a lot more as the systems shut down. 
The horse is unaware of all of this but it can look more upsetting for the owner.
		
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Having had all ours except one pts by bullet I have never seen any scrabbling.  Every horse has gone down immediately, with a mouth full of food.  There has been a small amount of blood, which was easily cleared up by spreading and then sweeping shavings.  The only time we saw a lot of blood was 30 or so years ago when our 1st horse was shot by the knackerman on the farm.  We didn't watch it all but he was bled out for meat.  The farmer kindly dealt with the aftermath for us. I was under the impression that the captive bolt is no longer legal.  The injection was a more distressing experience for both us and the pony as she hated injections.  We have never been allowed to hold the horse as a safety measure but have stood nearby.  Our local Equine Crematorium (knackerman) has started to ask owners to say goodbye and go inside since the experience when one owner flung herself at the body and refused to allow it to be winched up onto the wagon.


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## Stinkbomb (11 May 2010)

tibby said:



			I work for my family's pet cremation business and have collected many horses and ponies, I have witnessed several being pts, I always ask the owners to walk away while we winch into the trailer as there is no nice way to do this, and I would hate the owners to have this as their last image of their best friend.
		
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I had my pony taken away and cremated. Totally agree with you on this one. My pony was PTS in his stable ( had no choice, was down with severe colic, noway he was going nowhere ) i heard the chains being taken out of the trailer whilst sat around the corner it was awful. I bawled my eyes out even more. There was  no way i would have wanted to see him winched, and squeezed out of that door into the trailer.

Having watched that video i found it quite upsetting. i dont think i could ever see my horse twitching on the floor like that and wouldnt want to think my horses last memory was someone lifting a gun to his head. Ive held three horses PTS by injection and all went quickly and easy so that would be my choice again. 

I suppose things can go wrong with both types of death and we all have different experiences and its personal choice really. I also could never send any of my horses to the Knackerman or hunt. But im a fluffy horse lover!!!


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## Tiffany (11 May 2010)

Fortunately, I've only ever had one horse PTS and that was by injection. I couldn't have stayed with her if she'd been shot and I wanted to be with her when her life came to an end. I'm not saying injection is better than shooting or vice versa, it's a personal decision at the end of the day.


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## Tiffany (11 May 2010)

The saddest thing about the video is that the pony looked in good healthy? If it was, how & why would an owner send a healthy animal to be shot?


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## VictoriaEDT (11 May 2010)

I dont really know why I replying here as it is still incredibly raw for me as I lost my beautiful boy Charlie (coloured in sig) 7 weeks ago, I owned him for 15 years.

Everything was very important to me from the place in my field where he was going to be PTS to the fact that the cremation transporter was to wait at the top of the drive as Charlie never liked travelling an I didnt want him to think the lorry was for him. I also made sure that he was squeeky clean with a beautifully clean and conditioned tail.....sounds silly but to me it felt more dignified. 

He was PTS under injection, my vet was fantastic she gave him a large dose of Torbugesic (sedative with pain killer) to walk to where we would let him go; he had v bad laminitis so was painful to walk out of his stable. Once we got him out, I stood cuddling his head and talking into his ear telling him how much I loved him (christ this is setting me off now!) as I was doing so I was aware of the vet inserting the syringe contents and throwing down syringes as she emptied them. He then went down really gracefully and quickly, I knelt down cuddling his head and said my last goodbyes whilst the vet was waiting for his heart to stop. 

He was "gone" before he hit the ground but it is true that their heart can continue to beat for a few minutes. I stayed until his heart stopped and then the vet and transporter took care of the rest, I have seen it in the past but never wanted to see my boy winched into the lorry. However, the vet said Michael from Watsons in Hampshire did it in an extremely dignified manner.......he was dressed smart casual and his lorry was immaculate inside. He apparently winched him in very gently "as though he were still alive" the vet said, lifting his head gently etc. 

Charlie deserved the best and I think he went in the best and most dignified manner possible.


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## jaypeebee (12 May 2010)

charlie76 said:



			with all the ones I have been with the difference between shooting and injection is that the injection stops the heart so the horse just crumples to the floor where as when you shoot the horse it goes into the brain/nervous system so the horses scramble about as they go down and twitch a lot more as the systems shut down. 
The horse is unaware of all of this but it can look more upsetting for the owner.
		
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I have had numerous horses of mine put down in my life time.  Most have been shot and a couple have been injected.  Out of all the ones who have been shot I have never witnessed anything like you are saying.  All of the shot horses were dead before the shot rung in my ears and none scrambled about when they went down, they just flopped to the ground.  With the ones who were injected they did not die immediately so the choice I always make is to have them shot as it is instant death unlike the needle.


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## brighthair (12 May 2010)

Tiffany said:



			The saddest thing about the video is that the pony looked in good healthy? If it was, how & why would an owner send a healthy animal to be shot?
		
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they can look good -  I once heard that they almost look their best before they die. My friend saw a photo of mine literally 20 mins before he went, and thought it was a photo before a show  He was absolutely gleaming, bright eyes and looked amazing.


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## natalia (12 May 2010)

Why would you send a healthy horse to be shot? Possibly because what appears "healthy" isn't always the case. Lame, mental, any number of health problems including nurological ones, old, etc, you can't comment on each individual horse unless you know the full history!


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## Kenzo (12 May 2010)

I didnt watch the video, well I clicked onto it as I was going to but it took ages to load and then I thought hmm maybe thats a sign I shouldnt watch it, nothing worse than me sat blubbing at my desk because I've been watching a horse shot....not sure that would go down well with the boss 

Anyway its been interesting catching up on the replies, I feel I have a better understanding of it all now and hopefully should I ever need to be around for someone else (like they did me) I'll feel more prepaired and can be strong for them.

Thanks for all your feedback.


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## NeedNewHorse (12 May 2010)

I am such a massive softy when it comes to animals. I always thought I would get my mare (when the time comes, god forbid not for years as she is young and future horses) pts if that had to be the case via injection.

But now reading and thinking about it, I would hate the thought of her or any horse fighting off the stuff and taking time. God that would be so painful and distressing for everyone... But then I hate the thought of shooting, it seems so inpersonal and violent. But if it's instant, it seems the best. Is it always instant though? I mean how many issues crop up honestly?

Oh dear reading this thread and poor VictoriaEDT account has literally made me cry.

x


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## touchstone (12 May 2010)

I think the best advice is to go with what the professional you are using is most comfortable with; chances are that that is the method they are most experienced with.

To be honest I have witnessed a horse at an event be pts by a gun, which went badly wrong and the animal had to be shot a second time, although the circumstances were very stressful anyway, the horse was panicking at the screens being brought round and wouldn't stay still, so not surprising really.

As for injections there have been tales of horses fighting that, but I am led to believe that they use a different drug now which is faster acting, the horse should always be sedated first though, and if you have a needle phobic horse then that is worth thinking about.

It is pointless to worry about what 'might' go wrong, chances are it won't happen anyway and I think at a time like that it is better to hand responsibility over to the professionals to deal with.   Personally I prefer the gun as the ones I've witnessed be put down at home have always literally just dropped, and dead before they hit the ground, their last memory was a nose stuck in a bucket of feed or a mouthful of grass.


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## MontyandZoom (12 May 2010)

brighthair said:



			they can look good -  I once heard that they almost look their best before they die. My friend saw a photo of mine literally 20 mins before he went, and thought it was a photo before a show  He was absolutely gleaming, bright eyes and looked amazing.
		
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Agreed! My boy Monty was SO poorly  He had advanced leukaemia, was severely lame from an abcess and had an infected bladder meaning that he couldn't urinate barely at all. My friend had always helped out with him and came to see him the day before he was PTS. It broke my heart since he lifted his head and whinnied to us as we arrived. He was shiny and alert........definately makes it harder.

Luckily (well not really - I hate the though that he was in pain - but from a selfish point of view) the next morning when the knackerman was coming, he looked pretty down. In fact I didn't groom him like I'd planned to since he just wanted to stand quietly in the corner of the stable.  God, it brings it all back.....miss you bub!


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## _MizElz_ (12 May 2010)

brighthair said:



			they can look good -  I once heard that they almost look their best before they die. My friend saw a photo of mine literally 20 mins before he went, and thought it was a photo before a show  He was absolutely gleaming, bright eyes and looked amazing.
		
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I'd totally agree with this. My experience of PTS is (thankfully) limited...the only time I've had to face it properly was when we had my elderly pony Pippa put down. She was 34 and had gone downhill really quickly - she wasnt eating, she was very stiff and she just looked so sad. Mum and I took her to the kennels - it's the way ours have always gone, although we're not really a hunting family as many are - but before we loaded her I did her mane and tail and gave her a bath. She looked so sad - a shadow of her self - and we knew we were doing the right thing.
When we got to the kennels, a guy came to lead her off. Pippa had been very badly treated in her past and as a result was petrified of men all through her life...but not now. As soon as she caught scent of the hounds, she seemed to grow; the change was remarkable. She pranced down that ramp like a three year old, with bright eyes and pricked ears. The kennelman led her away with his arm loosely slung over her neck, and she trotted off at his side, thinking she was going hunting. As we put the ramp of the lorry up, we heard two bangs in quick succession...and that was that. 

Got me all tearful now, just thinking about it  But it was such a lovely end for her, I couldnt have chosen better x


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## _MizElz_ (12 May 2010)

heidirusso said:



			But now reading and thinking about it, I would hate the thought of her or any horse fighting off the stuff and taking time. God that would be so painful and distressing for everyone... But then I hate the thought of shooting, it seems so inpersonal and violent. But if it's instant, it seems the best. Is it always instant though? I mean how many issues crop up honestly?
		
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I've known of a fair few issues with the injection....and not all equine, either  
 My dad used to be a farrier and sometimes owners would asked him to be there when one of their horses was being PTS (injection). There was one - quite an elderly horse - who was injected in his field with his companion nearby, but for whatever reason the injection did not take as it should, and the horse ended up going nuts. I mean really, really nuts - it fell, then got up again, then staggered away from them and took off across the field. It eventually killed itself by somersaulting over a barbed wire fence...God, the thought of it haunts me now 
Another was a horse that had been PTS (injection) in its stable. Dad was there shoeing another horse about two hours after the horse had 'died' - they were waiting for the body to be taken away. As he went past the stable he heard a groaning noise, and on peeling back the rug it became evident that the horse was very much still alive. Dad was disgusted; I remember him talking about it for ages afterwards, and when the vet came back out insisting that the horse 'must be dead', he saw to it that it was shot rather than injected again. Just horrible.
Sadly I also know of two dogs whose end was not what it should have been. In both cases, it took the vets (different practices) several attempts to administer the injection, and in both cases the dogs were screaming in pain and fright right up until the end. As you can imagine, both owners live with those images in the front of their minds....I cant imagine anything worse  When we had our own dog PTS, I wasnt allowed to be there but I went to see her about 20 mins afterwards, and I remember being completely freaked out by the fact that she still seemed to have a little pulse under her elbow, and her toes and tongue were twitching. She was meant to be dead, yet she seemed to be alive...I can remember getting so upset with Mum and telling her that we needed to get the vet back to save her 

Suffice to say, as much as I love the idea of a horse peacefully slipping away with its head in a bucket, I think I would always choose the bullet. If I'm honest, I would choose the same for a dog also.


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## flyingfeet (12 May 2010)

marmalade76 said:



			Found this when looking at the options for my horse when the time comes (he is on borrowed time). 

DON'T WATCH IF EASILY UPSET!

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/f/CAMPAIGNS/blog//4//?be_id=92

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Thanks for posting this - one of mine is booked in with Potters and this video has made me feel much better about it. They look professional, handled the pony well and it was dead when it hit the floor, so didn't have a chance to know what was happening. 

I had to stay with one of our liveries horse who was put down by injection and I will never ever put one of mine through this. Despite being 20+ and in severe pain from colic she was up and down and the injection took ages to work. Additionally not that great for needle shy horses and I wouldn't like that to be the last memory.


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## doris2008 (12 May 2010)

My only experience of horses being PTS was the old mare in stable next to mine. She came in one day barely able to walk and it was clearly time. Her owner was absent & another lady on the yard cared for her daily. Vet came & she was injected. Vet was recently qualified & made a mess of it. Took him ages to sedate her & even longer to find vein to inject - I dont think entirely vets fault but he got pretty flustered about it. On the up side, doing it this way meant that friends son with aspergers was able to say his goodbyes, he sat next to her & closed her eyes. It was a very poignant moment.
Whilst it sounds instant, I just dont think I can cope with the idea of having G shot. I think I could only do it by injection.


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## Tiffany (19 May 2010)

natalia said:



			Why would you send a healthy horse to be shot? Possibly because what appears "healthy" isn't always the case. Lame, mental, any number of health problems including nurological ones, old, etc, you can't comment on each individual horse unless you know the full history!
		
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I agree Natalie although unfortunately the fact is people do put healthy animals to sleep (including ponies/horses) just because they no longer want them or, they want something better or some other excuse and that's what I really don't understand.


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## Slaneyrose (15 January 2020)

I've been reading these with interest as my 18yr old mare was let out of her 10 acre field that she shared with my herd of minis last Wednesday, broke her upper front leg in half, a licenced hunter offered to shoot her as the vet was over half an hour away. I couldn't look so after saying good bye I turned away. Heard the shot and the bang as she hit the ground, but when I turned back to her she was on her back flailing madly, I was hysterical and screaming for him to shoot her again but he kept saying it was just reflexes and she was brain dead but it went on for almost a minute, going by experiences on here it seems she didn't die straight away. The bullet hole looked to be in the right place but not much blood (friends checked after, I was too traumatised) can anyone tell me why this happened?


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## ycbm (15 January 2020)

The brain is dead but the nerves die of lack of oxygen,  so they keep pumping the legs to run until it's all used up. There's rarely much blood.

It's almost certain your mare knew absolutely nothing about it, if she had she would have been trying to get up. I've seen that with a botched stunning and it is horrific.  One of mine was dead but still doing it all the way up the lorry ramp as he was winched in.

I'm sorry you lost your mare in such horrible circumstances. You did the right thing not prolonging her pain.


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## Meowy Catkin (15 January 2020)

I have seen horses euthanised with both methods and every time - injection or bullet - the legs moved after death as the body 'wound down'. I have looked at a few Vet websites to check what they say about euthanasia and they all mention involuntary movements of the legs after death as normal.

I'm very sorry for your loss.


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## Pearlsasinger (15 January 2020)

I'm sorry you had to have that awful experience but the legs moving after brain death is a normal reaction.  It takes a while for the messages to get the extremities but they can't pass back to the brain.  The horse isn't aware of anything.  I have had horse pts with both methods and tbh shooting has always caused less distress to the horse.

Just remember that your choice was to take up the hunter's offer, or leave your mare in pain and frightened because (in her head) she couldn't get away from predators until the vet could get to her.  You made the right choice for her. 

I would be furious with whoever let her out of her field.


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## Fluffypiglet (15 January 2020)

I've seen two horses shot, neither were mine but useful (although horrible) to see so I could understand. I wasn't there for my last horse at all and tbh it's unlikely I'd be there for my current one. If possible I would be there to hand over to the knackerman but if I'm in a state I don't think it's fair to the horse. Very much depends on circumstances tho. My last horse had reached his time so was horrible to make the decision and I was in pieces at the idea of it so I handed the whole thing over to the YM who he knew and liked.  If it's colic or some emergency then I'd be there because it's already highly charged situation anyway so more likely to have my own adrenaline to get me through and then drop to pieces after.


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## conniegirl (15 January 2020)

I have had one shot, 3 go by injection and one go by captive bolt (penetrating).
I have been there for all the injections, and for the captive bolt one but couldnt be there for the one who was shot.
The one who was shot was very very elderly with most of his systems having already shut down or on thier way to shutting down so it was decided that the best way was a bullet. He apparently went very peacefully and didnt know a thing about it.

2 of the ones who went by injection went peacefully as well, but one did not.
The one who did not go peacefully it was always going to be a difficult thing, he was a horse known for violently fighting any sedation and the plan had always been to use a bullet should he ever need to be PTS, unfortunately he came in one evening and collapsed in his stable with his head right in the corner of the stable, he scrabbled and thrashed whilst the vet made thier way to us (vet was the closest) and it was absolutely unsafe to use a free bullet in that situation as it was far to dangerous to get to his head. It was as nice as the horrid situation could be. When we had the Necropsy dont it showed that he had ruptured his bladder whilst in the field.

The one who went by captive bolt went quietly, i think it was more distressing for the vet then it was for us as she was newly qualified and it was the first one she had to pts after vet school.



Tiffany said:



			The saddest thing about the video is that the pony looked in good healthy? If it was, how & why would an owner send a healthy animal to be shot?
		
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I have one in my field at the moment who looks like he could go to HOYS and he would try for you if you asked him to, however aged 9 he is so riddled with arthritis of the spine and hocks, has a major stifle problem and has SI issues. Over christmas he came so close to having to be PTS due to those issues but still looked a million ££.
Posts like yours above are very very unhelpful, for all you know the pony in the video could have major physical issues like mine does or it may be dangerous and the owner is doing the responsible thing rather than sell it as a companion.
It is a hard enough decision to make to have a young horse that looks healthy on the outside PTS and you get so many people judging you that posts like yours are the reason people keep horses going far longer than they should do.


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## Slaneyrose (15 January 2020)

Thank you all for your replies, I really appreciate it, I expected some twitching but not like she was galloping in the air. I am so angry with the person/people who opened the gate, I rent my land and 2 others have access down the lane to get to their land (the grazing is down a long lane) so I've always been told I couldn't padlock the gate, it was securely closed tho. And although shooting is forbidden I think maybe they were lamping (which is illegal) and that's what frightened her out. I now have the gate padlocked, no one dared refuse me after this, I just wish so much I had of insisted before, but in 9yrs its only been left open once and the horses are so far away from the gate I always believed they were safe. 😭


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## Mule (15 January 2020)

Slaneyrose said:



			Thank you all for your replies, I really appreciate it, I expected some twitching but not like she was galloping in the air. I am so angry with the person/people who opened the gate, I rent my land and 2 others have access down the lane to get to their land (the grazing is down a long lane) so I've always been told I couldn't padlock the gate, it was securely closed tho. And although shooting is forbidden I think maybe they were lamping (which is illegal) and that's what frightened her out. I now have the gate padlocked, no one dared refuse me after this, I just wish so much I had of insisted before, but in 9yrs its only been left open once and the horses are so far away from the gate I always believed they were safe. 😭
		
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I'm so sorry, that's awful x


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## ycbm (15 January 2020)

You have every right to be angry.  

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