# Such a SAD day for so many fantastic horses ... The Grand National



## tillytime (9 April 2011)

For the first time in so long a felt physically sick as I (unfortunately) caught a few seconds of the grand national.
All I could think of was how many of the beautiful, fantasitc, young horses have or will die as a direct result of this race!


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## Kokopelli (9 April 2011)

Tin hat on...

Its very sad but there are worse fates, at least they go doing what they enjoy.


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## benson21 (9 April 2011)

any popcorn.......


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## BlizzardBudd (9 April 2011)

Kokopelli said:



			Tin hat on...

Its very sad but there are worse fates, at least they go doing what they enjoy.
		
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agreed


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## Holly Hocks (9 April 2011)

Horses die every day in racing - it's only because the GN is such a high profile race that people get in uproar about it.  I'm not saying I don't care - I care deeply, but don't moan about this race in particular.


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## lea840 (9 April 2011)

Holly Hocks said:



			Horses die every day in racing - it's only because the GN is such a high profile race that people get in uproar about it.  I'm not saying I don't care - I care deeply, but don't moan about this race in particular.
		
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I agree... and they also die going around the likes of Badminton, its only because its such a high profile race that people seem to make a fuss. I wonder how many people make a fuss when one is killed during 3 day eventing...


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## Puppy (9 April 2011)

Oh FGS...


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## Shilasdair (9 April 2011)

tillytime said:



			For the first time in so long a felt physically sick as I (unfortunately) caught a few seconds of the grand national.
All I could think of was how many of the beautiful, fantasitc, young horses have or will die as a direct result of this race!
		
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Oh, get a grip.  
It may come as a surprise to you, but horses, like people, are not immortal.  If they don't die racing, they die in the field, on the roads, in the stable, at the vet's.
All of them die.
S


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## MurphysMinder (9 April 2011)

One grazing with us broke its neck (but wasn't killed outright) in the field.  We have no idea how long she lay there before she was found.  Horses in racing receive instant treatment, or are pts, I know which I think is preferable.


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## Dovorian (9 April 2011)

I hope that I am not considered to be making a 'fuss', however I really do feel that BBC coverage was some what blase about the sad loss or injury to horses or riders. Having followed the race quite keenly for 30 plus years, I do feel that the negative side is ignored. Yes, horses love to race and indeed there are fatalities. Why can't we honour them after th tragic event? Is it not PC to show that we really do care? To answer those who mentioned eventing fatalities, I actually feel that these awful incidents are more 'openly' discussed and appropriate sympathies expressed. To ignore race fatalities and focus on wild celebration and inane remarks seems to assume we are all fools.... I wish I had not put any money on this race and the money from my 1st, 2nd 3rd 'success' will be donated to a racehorse welfare charity, such is my regret that I perpetuate the attitute to racing.


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## tinuviel (9 April 2011)

Sadly 2 horses died however their deaths at least were quick, at least one was dead before they even turned in for the second circuit so any suffering was for a few brief minutes, if even that! My heart sank when they had to go round the fences and you could see what had happened straight away.  But horses are flesh and blood like the rest of us, ask them to run to the maximum of their physical abilities and they will get injured or die at some time, just like humans do! Its no different and much of the time the horses are perfectly happy doing what they are doing....just look at Ballabriggs, he won enthusiastically but you can see when pulled up how utterly knackered he was yet he was fully prepared to give everything, if he didn't like what he does then he wouldn't have put in such a huge effort!  We just need to make sure that if the worse does happen then the horse experiences the least amount of suffering possible.

I think some perspective needs to be applied here, obviously some people lack this ability! So many horses die up and down the country competing in sports that to ban the GN and/or horse racing in general would eventually mean the banning of all horse sports, only reason why we hear so much about horse racing deaths is that it has far more public exposure than other horse sports.


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## lea840 (9 April 2011)

Dovorian... Sorry, after re-reading my post I don't think it came across very well... 

What I was trying to say was that on a day like today when one of the biggest races in the world is on TV people seem to come out with the "Its cruelty" after a horse is killed in a race, especially the National... but yet when we are all sat around the XC course watching some of our favorite eventers at the likes of Badminton and a poor horse loses its life, its always "Oh what a shame for the horse and rider, how tragic" No one seems to shout about it being cruel when a horse does a rotaional fall and breaks its neck going over a XC fence... yet when its racing it all of a sudden becomes cruelity and makes people feel "Physically sick"... 

Any way I'm off to pick my punters up from Aintree as I'm a local to the National ground itself...


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## MagicMelon (9 April 2011)

Kokopelli said:



			Tin hat on...

Its very sad but there are worse fates, at least they go doing what they enjoy.
		
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Enjoy?  How would you know!  Those whips are out frequently, I dont think those extremely young, innocent horses have any choice in the matter.  Ban this race, just horrific.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			Enjoy?  How would you know!  Those whips are out frequently, I dont think those extremely young, innocent horses have any choice in the matter.  Ban this race, just horrific.
		
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Plenty of people think the same about eventing - be very careful what side of the 'welfare' fence you jump on....... I'm pro all horse sports, eventing is no better, it's just different. Did you want to ban Badminton the year three horses died?


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## KarynK (9 April 2011)

Horses sadly die and are fatally injured doing all of the things we keep them for, yes the risk is higher in chasing and hurdling, but then many more horses do that than some other things we ask of them.  Horses die or are seriously injured in their field, giving birth, out hacking or at exercise, eventing, at hunter trials, show jumping, at pony club, travelling in trailers and everything else we ask of them carries a risk however small it might seem.

At Aintree however the Veterinary presence is far better than you would ever receive anywhere else, the diagnosis if needed is almost instant, there is an option of being taken to a state of the art hospital if there is a chance and it is highly likely that a vet is actually at Beecher's Brook or very very close to it.  How many other horses have this kind of attention at the very site of their injury even at an international 3 day event?

There is a very sad post on the breeding forum where a very young horse started to exhibit curvature of the spine, the owner did all the right things and her own vet sent the horse to a veterinary hospital, the horse had a broken spine and dislocated rib, no one knows when it actually happened, very very sadly the horse was PTS at the veterinary centre.

It is very sad that fatalities happen but Racing is open to ideas and suggestions and you only have to look at the redesign of that course to see that study recommendations are implemented.  

To me the very reason that those horses are so beautiful is that they have a long heritage of performers behind them in their pedigree and that the efforts and abilities of each generation are enhanced in the next.  They are bred for these tests and that is why they fill the eye, without breeding for racing we would not have half the breeds we have now as the influence of that performance testing reaches into so many breeds and types competing today.  Horses have died in the service of man for thousands of years be it at war, work or rest and will continue to do so as long as we keep them and even if we don't they die and are injured in the wild at a much earlier age, there it is the job of cats, dogs or infection to eventually end any suffering. 

I don't like seeing fatalities but I love racing and to me it is part of it and I have to deal with that.


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## meandmyself (9 April 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			Enjoy?  How would you know!  Those whips are out frequently, I dont think those extremely young, innocent horses have any choice in the matter.  Ban this race, just horrific.
		
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I think an outright ban is a bit extreme. They could look at the fence design or make them a bit smaller to give the horses a better chance. 

Look at eventing a few years ago- lots of horse deaths in a short time, and yet no-one was calling for any of those events to be banned. 

Racing is a risky venture. I do feel that the National could be made a less stiff race and still be a hard race. 

(Sorry, thinking out loud. Not sure that I'm making any sense.)


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## Milanesa (9 April 2011)

very sad that 2 horses have died, and only 19 out of 40 finished! that must tell you in general the course is very punishing..in xc etc these sort of statistics never occur, the horses are tested but not to the point they fall out of exhaustion amongst many other things...many die every day in all spheres i know that but to push a horse that far could be seen as inhumane as we all know that most horses will give 110% for us. i am not against racing just makes you think ....


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## jenbleep (9 April 2011)

Yes it is sad, but come on...I thought 2 out of 40 wasn't bad for such a large race, plus any horses that are in trouble are in the best hands.

Horses die out hacking, it's unfortunate but true! Plus with all the adrenaline I doubt they would have felt it


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## 3Beasties (9 April 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			Ban this race, just horrific.
		
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Lets ban racing all together then, horses die everyday in races, on the gallops or even just stood in their fields/stables at the racing yards. The National is one the the highest profile races around, many, many more people watch it then any other race on TV so any fatalities are always more public and there is always an uproar.

It is terribly sad that these two horses died/PTS today, but they went quickly doing what they love (I really do believe that the majority of the horses do love racing!) and were bred to do.


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## meandmyself (9 April 2011)

pony person said:



			very sad that 2 horses have died, and only 19 out of 40 finished! that must tell you in general the course is very punishing..in xc etc these sort of statistics never occur, the horses are tested but not to the point they fall out of exhaustion amongst many other things...many die every day in all spheres i know that but to push a horse that far could be seen as inhumane as we all know that most horses will give 110% for us. i am not against racing just makes you think ....
		
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They do, but they're just not so widely reported. I can think of at least two four star events in the past few years that had very exhausted horses coming home.


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## 3Beasties (9 April 2011)

KarynK said:



			Horses sadly die and are fatally injured doing all of the things we keep them for, yes the risk is higher in chasing and hurdling, but then many more horses do that than some other things we ask of them.  Horses die or are seriously injured in their field, giving birth, out hacking or at exercise, eventing, at hunter trials, show jumping, at pony club, travelling in trailers and everything else we ask of them carries a risk however small it might seem.

At Aintree however the Veterinary presence is far better than you would ever receive anywhere else, the diagnosis if needed is almost instant, there is an option of being taken to a state of the art hospital if there is a chance and it is highly likely that a vet is actually at Beecher's Brook or very very close to it.  How many other horses have this kind of attention at the very site of their injury even at an international 3 day event?

There is a very sad post on the breeding forum where a very young horse started to exhibit curvature of the spine, the owner did all the right things and her own vet sent the horse to a veterinary hospital, the horse had a broken spine and dislocated rib, no one knows when it actually happened, very very sadly the horse was PTS at the veterinary centre.

It is very sad that fatalities happen but Racing is open to ideas and suggestions and you only have to look at the redesign of that course to see that study recommendations are implemented.  

To me the very reason that those horses are so beautiful is that they have a long heritage of performers behind them in their pedigree and that the efforts and abilities of each generation are enhanced in the next.  They are bred for these tests and that is why they fill the eye, without breeding for racing we would not have half the breeds we have now as the influence of that performance testing reaches into so many breeds and types competing today.  Horses have died in the service of man for thousands of years be it at war, work or rest and will continue to do so as long as we keep them and even if we don't they die and are injured in the wild at a much earlier age, there it is the job of cats, dogs or infection to eventually end any suffering. 

I don't like seeing fatalities but I love racing and to me it is part of it and I have to deal with that.
		
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Put so much better then I managed! What she said ^^^^^


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## gonebananas (9 April 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			Enjoy?  How would you know!  Those whips are out frequently, I dont think those extremely young, innocent horses have any choice in the matter.  Ban this race, just horrific.
		
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extremely young? the youngest in the GN today was 7. I don't see that as very young opposed to the age of horses in flat racing tbh


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## Pearlsasinger (9 April 2011)

Our first horse died in a field accident.  Perhaps we should ban keeping horses in fields?


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## KatB (9 April 2011)

The difference between Eventing and the grand national is horses are not expected to fall/die eventing. It is the norm in the national. 

I am not anti national, I just think there is a limit, and the national pushes it, which is just too much for a lot of the horses entered which just shouldn't be there IMHO.


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## Slinkyunicorn (9 April 2011)

Whoever said there was no mention made of the horses that died clearly weren't watching the BBC coverage where it was handled very sensitively by Clare Balding and the other commentators there. As they said it's the stable lads you feel for as they are with those horses 24/7 - must be devastating to be handed the bridle and to go home with an empty box to an empty stable

Still they will be back with another horse at the next meet and the majority do come home safely - certainly has improved on years ago when there seemed to be many more casualties


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## zefragile (9 April 2011)

KatB said:



			The difference between Eventing and the grand national is horses are not expected to fall/die eventing. It is the norm in the national. 

I am not anti national, I just think there is a limit, and the national pushes it, which is just too much for a lot of the horses entered which just shouldn't be there IMHO.
		
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Agreed. And 40 horses is so many to be racing together.



slinkyunicorn said:



			Whoever said there was no mention made of the horses that died clearly weren't watching the BBC coverage where it was handled very sensitively by Clare Balding and the other commentators there. As they said it's the stable lads you feel for as they are with those horses 24/7 - must be devastating to be handed the bridle and to go home with an empty box to an empty stable

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There was no mention right until the very end.


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## lhotse (9 April 2011)

tillytime said:



			For the first time in so long a felt physically sick as I (unfortunately) caught a few seconds of the grand national.
All I could think of was how many of the beautiful, fantasitc, young horses have or will die as a direct result of this race!
		
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Hmmm, and how many die as a result of laminitis, liver failure, worms, malnutrition......
There are many things worse than a quick end on a racecourse


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## zefragile (9 April 2011)

lhotse said:



			Hmmm, and how many die as a result of laminitis, liver failure, worms, malnutrition......
There are many things worse than a quick end on a racecourse
		
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Of course there are worse things, doesn't make their sad deaths any better. Why is it that people expressing sadness at the deaths today are assumed to be ignorant of other risks associated with horse sport?


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## teagreen (9 April 2011)

Spring Along was 'forced' to go eventing in his late teens and eventually died of a heart attack in front of hundreds of spectators.

Was there any outrage? No. Quite rightly. Because the old horse looked well and wanted to go eventing, he was bred to do it, they knew the risks with an old horse but they still did it. He died doing what he loved, everyone said. Well, same for the two that died today. It is the same principle.


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## Scarlett (9 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			Spring Along was 'forced' to go eventing in his late teens and eventually died of a heart attack in front of hundreds of spectators.

Was there any outrage? No. Quite rightly. Because the old horse looked well and wanted to go eventing, he was bred to do it, they knew the risks with an old horse but they still did it. He died doing what he loved, everyone said. Well, same for the two that died today. It is the same principle.
		
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 I wish there was a like button for this... very well put.


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## leah_x (9 April 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			Enjoy?  How would you know!  Those whips are out frequently, I dont think those extremely young, innocent horses have any choice in the matter.  Ban this race, just horrific.
		
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I hate people who bring up the use of whips in racing when they clearly don't understand why they are used.
If you're riding a horse and it is drifting across infront of another horse, going at a gallop, causing danger to another horse...what would you do? A simple tap down the shoulder will sort that out.
If a horse is misbehaving and not doing what it's asked to do, what would you do? A little tap.
If a horse is going towards a fence not concentrating, or putting in enough effort, leaving the risk of falling and injuring itself, what would you do? Give it a little tap.
When riding a finish, if you look properly you will see the whip is only used every 6-7 strides. It's simply there to urge the horse on, to keep its mind on the job.
To ride a horse in a race without a stick would be plain stupidity. As McCoy once said; you ride some horses that feel like if it was human, it would be in prison. You need a stick to get them and yourselves out of dangerous situations.
And the whips are cushioned like mad! I can hit myself with mine as hard as I can and it doesn't hurt! unlike the ones used in eventing....

If this race was banned, then so many horses would go to slaughter. Not because the racing industry is cruel, but where else are thousands of horses going to go? 

The racing industry is constantly being changed and made better. Maybe email the british horse racing authority and they will set you straight about some of your opinions.


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## KatB (9 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			Spring Along was 'forced' to go eventing in his late teens and eventually died of a heart attack in front of hundreds of spectators.

Was there any outrage? No. Quite rightly. Because the old horse looked well and wanted to go eventing, he was bred to do it, they knew the risks with an old horse but they still did it. He died doing what he loved, everyone said. Well, same for the two that died today. It is the same principle.
		
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Fraid it's not. No other equine sport or event expects horses to fall. The national is the only one. I am not anti it as said before, so I am not being "emotional" or unrealistic about it, but I could never fully support something where horses expect to be pushed so far to their limits, that they can't stay upright. 

The ones who were 100% fit, well prepared etc, were all a credit to the sport and their trainers. However, the ones that aren't will end up either falling or (hopefully) being pulled up, and unfortunately horses falling at speed will be a lot more likely to die.

Yes accidents happen in fields, other equine sports, etc, but there is no other equine event where you KNOW without any doubt that horses WILL end up falling, and there is more often than not fatalities.


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## lhotse (9 April 2011)

Yes, it is very sad that any horse should die, but remember that without racing, the veterinary care that we are able to access would be a whole lot less. There is a reason why Newmarket is home to one of the most advanced veterinary hospitals in the country and we can all tap into that. Horses do die in other sports, I have myself held a horse that was bleeding to death at Badminton after the flag incident, and there was no official vet in attendance at that fence. A spectator from france (a vet) was the first on the scene. They were using equipement from the St John's Ambulance. The screens were not put up for 15 minutes and the horse ambulance was on the other side of the park. I cannot imagine that happening on a racecourse.


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## jendie (9 April 2011)

>>>he won enthusiastically but you can see when pulled up how utterly knackered he was yet he was fully prepared to give everything, if he didn't like what he does then he wouldn't have put in such a huge effort<<<

I think animals put in such amazing efforts to please US. I think that, left to their own devices, these horses would have been eating the grass instread of hurtling round the course. It is further evidence, if any were needed, of just how fantastic man's relationship with these animals can be. But that relationship brings responsibilities and sadly man doesn't always come up to the mark.


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## Ebenezer_Scrooge (9 April 2011)

KatB said:



			Fraid it's not. No other equine sport or event expects horses to fall. The national is the only one. I am not anti it as said before, so I am not being "emotional" or unrealsitic about it, but I could never fully support something where horses expect to be pushed so far to their limits, that they can't stay upright. 

The ones who were 100% fit, well prepared etc, were all a credit to the sport and their trainers. However, the ones that aren't will end up either falling or (hopefully) being pulled up, and unfortunately horses falling at speed will be a lot more likely to die.

Yes accidents happen in fields, other equine sports, etc, but there is no other equine event where you KNOW without any doubt that horses WILL end up falling, and there is more often than not fatalities.
		
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Well put....


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## 3Beasties (9 April 2011)

I don't think horses are expected to fall, owners/trainers/jockeys will not enter a race with the aim of the horse falling, they enter because they believe there horse has a chance to win.

The National has come on loads over the years, the course and jumps have been altered to try and make it safer and I believe that this has helped, not as many horses fall now compared to years ago.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			Spring Along was 'forced' to go eventing in his late teens and eventually died of a heart attack in front of hundreds of spectators.

Was there any outrage? No. Quite rightly. Because the old horse looked well and wanted to go eventing, he was bred to do it, they knew the risks with an old horse but they still did it. He died doing what he loved, everyone said. Well, same for the two that died today. It is the same principle.
		
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Quite - well put.


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## Hullabaloo (9 April 2011)

zefragile said:



			There was no mention right until the very end.
		
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To be fair to the commentators this is the first time (as far as I can remember) that its been so obvious to people watching that there was a dead horse on the course.  However it was handled some people would have found it insensitive.
The presenters don't want to take away from the achievement of the winning jockey and trainer by talking about fatalities before they even get to the winners enclosure.  Like everyone else I was glued to the screen waiting for news of the horses but I can understand why they did the interviews with the winners connections first (and as for Sam Walley Cohen without his shirt - my god, if I was 20 years younger!).
A lot of people watching the national won't be horsey and while I'm sure they are sorry that horses have died they are probably more concerned about how they won or lost their bet.  
I actually thought Claire Balding handled it very well.


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## KatB (9 April 2011)

3Beasties said:



			I don't think horses are expected to fall, owners/trainers/jockeys will not enter a race with the aim of the horse falling, they enter because they believe there horse has a chance to win.

The National has come on loads over the years, the course and jumps have been altered to try and make it safer and I believe that this has helped, not as many horses fall now compared to years ago.
		
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Of course they wouldn't enter it with the aim of a horse falling!!! There would be no point in training it/working on it/spending money on it if that was the case!!! And yes, the grand national has improved hugely, but it is still KNOWN that horses WILL FALL! There is no getting away from that, and it is that that makes me feel uneasy about this particular race. 

On the vet hospital/racing industry support arguement, I have some very good friends who love racing, and work in vet hospitals/vet industry, and follow it keenly because of the work they do with racehorses. However, they still feel uneasy about the grand national because of the fact they know it carries such a HUGE risk and it's not expected for a high % of horses to finish.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

KatB said:



			Fraid it's not. No other equine sport or event expects horses to fall. The national is the only one. I am not anti it as said before, so I am not being "emotional" or unrealistic about it, but I could never fully support something where horses expect to be pushed so far to their limits, that they can't stay upright. 

The ones who were 100% fit, well prepared etc, were all a credit to the sport and their trainers. However, the ones that aren't will end up either falling or (hopefully) being pulled up, and unfortunately horses falling at speed will be a lot more likely to die.

Yes accidents happen in fields, other equine sports, etc, but there is no other equine event where you KNOW without any doubt that horses WILL end up falling, and there is more often than not fatalities.
		
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Of course other sports expect falls - why do you think the frangible pin was invented in eventing? Rotational falls are taken on board as part of eventing. 

I hope you're not suggesting that those two fatally injured were in some way less fit that the rest? Dooney's Gate and Ornais made catastrophic jumping errors that ended their lives. Trained by Paul Nicholls and Willie Mullins respectively, Willie's wife owned the horse and his son was riding. How can you be so cavalier as to suggest that the Champion trainer would send one out unprepared, or that WM would send the horse out unfit to race with his son riding?

It's a tragic end for those connections, and my heart goes out to them. The horses will have known little about it.


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## sleepingdragon10 (9 April 2011)

Dovorian said:



			I hope that I am not considered to be making a 'fuss', however I really do feel that BBC coverage was some what blase about the sad loss or injury to horses or riders. Having followed the race quite keenly for 30 plus years, I do feel that the negative side is ignored. Yes, horses love to race and indeed there are fatalities. Why can't we honour them after th tragic event? Is it not PC to show that we really do care? To answer those who mentioned eventing fatalities, I actually feel that these awful incidents are more 'openly' discussed and appropriate sympathies expressed. To ignore race fatalities and focus on wild celebration and inane remarks seems to assume we are all fools.... I wish I had not put any money on this race and the money from my 1st, 2nd 3rd 'success' will be donated to a racehorse welfare charity, such is my regret that I perpetuate the attitute to racing.
		
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Did Clare Balding not say how she felt unable to be jubilant about the winner knowing that 2 horses had lost their lives during the race?
Jeez, what do you want, wailing and screaming?


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## TGM (9 April 2011)

I have to say I am a fan of racing generally, but I do have concerns about the Grand National because as others have said above, it does seem to be expected that some horses will die during it.  Yes there is risk turning a horse out in the field or hacking out and competing in other equestrian sports - but if you turn 40 horses out in field in the morning, you don't expect 2 to be dead at the end of the day.  At what point do we say that the risk is too high to be morally acceptable?  It would be interesting to see what are the statistics for horse fatalities in the Grand National specifically as opposed to jump racing generally, and also in comparison to other high risk equestrian sports such as eventing.  Do we, the general public, just think the fatality rate in the National is high because the race is so well publicised, or is there actually a proven increased fatality rate in this race?


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## Dunlin (9 April 2011)

Around 1997 I was at Hickstead and a horse broke a foreleg and had to be PTS in the arena, it was all done behind screens. Because it wasn't a publicised event only the owners/rider/connections and spectators who were there knew the horse had died.

The problem here is it's a well known race which millions of people watch. Horses die everyday sustaining injuries in the field, schooling, hacking, cross country etc. If they were on the TV on in the news I have no doubt there would be people saying "ohhh no, thats so cruel to make them do that and then they die".



			
				KatB said:
			
		


			No other equine sport or event expects horses to fall
		
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I beg to differ.

When I was at Burghley a few years ago I was the Leaf Pit. I lost count of how many times I heard people say "ahhh, damn I thought that one was going to fall" and the excitement of people saying "ohhh wow I got that fall on camera, that'll get loads of hits on youtube". Same applies to EVERY other cross country course I have been to. 

I thought Claire Balding handled the fatalities very well, she showed genuine sadness and respect.


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## KatB (9 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			Of course other sports expect falls - why do you think the frangible pin was invented in eventing? Rotational falls are taken on board as part of eventing. 

I hope you're not suggesting that those two fatally injured were in some way less fit that the rest? Dooney's Gate and Ornais made catastrophic jumping errors that ended their lives. Trained by Paul Nicholls and Willie Mullins respectively, Willie's wife owned the horse and his son was riding. How can you be so cavalier as to suggest that the Champion trainer would send one out unprepared, or that WM would send the horse out unfit to race with his son riding?

It's a tragic end for those connections, and my heart goes out to them. The horses will have known little about it.
		
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Falls happen with other sports, of course they do, and can have fatal consequences, I'm not saying they don't. However, they are relatively rare in the grand scheme of how many people event. If one event caused as many fallers as happens with the grand national, there would be a massive enquiry and it wouldn't run again unless something was changed dramatically. 

I am not saying the horses that died were in any way under prepared, but every horse has off days, and it is unlikely everything racing will be 100% on that particular day. The grand national pushes the horses to the absolute limit, so regardless on how amazing the care/prep beforehand, if the horse is even a teeny tiny bit under par, or makes a mistake it is much more likely to fall because of the amount the national pushes them. 

As I have said before, i am not anti national, it just makes me uneasy to see so many fall year in year out.


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## JanetGeorge (9 April 2011)

KatB said:



			Fraid it's not. No other equine sport or event expects horses to fall. The national is the only one.
		
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Only if you're VERY naive!!  I 'expect' to see a horse fall in an ODE - from lower to higher levels; in hunter trials, team chases and certainly in point-to-points!  I always breathe a sigh of relief for each horse that completes - and each horse that gets up unhurt!

Sadly, it is not particularly unusual to have one or two horses either killed (or so injured that they are PTS later) in any Point-to-point!  If we only allowed horses to do things that were 'safe', we'd NEVER turn them out in a field!


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## V1NN (9 April 2011)

RIP lovely horses  x


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## KatB (9 April 2011)

I am not naive, and stand by the point I made above. I have been involved with many eventers/hunters/showjumpers and have although we all know it CAN happen, you do not have the thought that the horse is likely to fall at the start of a ODE/SJing round/day hunting. If you do, there is something wrong somewhere IMHO!!!


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## muddygreymare (9 April 2011)

RIP Dooney's Gate + Ornais  My thoughts are with the owners/trainers/jockeys etc. At least they died doing what they loved


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## dominobrown (9 April 2011)

Before I get anymore annoyed....
Can people not post uneducated rubbish please. You are entiltled to an opinion though to come out with 'random' statements which are untrue is irratating.

Having worked in racing, seen horses breaking down, losing horses and looking after them it never gets any easier.
However it a nasty part of racing the thrill of racing is amazing, and to say all horses don't enjoy it is rubbish, to say all staff don't care is rubbish and any other stupid genralisation is rubbish.
A racehorse trainer who also did a lot of over discplines said they didn't like eventing- it was just too dangerous!
I think on Comp riders there was a thread about top-class eventers that 'disappeared' for eventing. Most due to soundness isssues so please don't bunch racing into the only dangerous equine sport!
I personally event and point to point.


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## lannerch (9 April 2011)

Am loving the title of this thread it sounds like most of the field died!


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## glenruby (9 April 2011)

KatB said:



			Falls happen with other sports, of course they do, and can have fatal consequences, I'm not saying they don't. However, they are relatively rare in the grand scheme of how many people event. If one event caused as many fallers as happens with the grand national, there would be a massive enquiry and it wouldn't run again unless something was changed dramatically. 

"Relatively rare" - really?? I have no hesitations in saying that if you compared the thousands of runners in racing each year with the SIGNIFICANTLY smaller number who event, the percentage of deaths/fatal injuries and furthermore longterm/permanent unsound horses would be higher for eventing.  Just reading a thread earlier about what happened former big name horses in eventing - most were said to be injured/broken down or had serious soundness issues. That makes it no better than racing- and probably even worse if exact percentages of these incidents were known.

And yes, at any 4star event, falls ARE expected. Of course they are. How many events have you ever been to/watched that there truely were no falls/injuries? So some racehorses have a greater tendency to fall than others (most GN runners have a good history over fences) and on board certain horses jockeys must have greater worries about falling than others but the same can be said for event horses of questionable sope. Muschamp Impala springs to mind.

I think any eventer saying they think the GN or NH racing in general is cruel (and this is not directed at you KatB but at some of the "pro-eventing" and "anti-NH" folk) are real hypocrits.

Also agree with what has been said about Spring Along - couldnt she have retired him gracefully instead of making him do another event then? He had nothing to prove. Is this greed too?
		
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## Foxhunter49 (9 April 2011)

The Grand National has been modified over the years and there are many other races where horses die from falls.

These horses have to qualify for the race and in doing so, prove they are capable of jumping fences. It is something they are bred to do.

I think that Claire balding and Richard Dunwoody handled the aftermath well. I know what it is like not to have a horse come home from the races but you get over it and move on.

The fact that the ground was so perfect led to the race being very fast and speed will lead to harder falls for riders and horses. 

I think that to change the National to anything less would take it from being a rough race to just being a long race that could be jumped around by a kid on a decent pony. \


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## Tinypony (9 April 2011)

Is there any single event where you would expect at least one horse to die?  Say for example, on the cross country day?  Just to be clear about what I am asking, is there an event where, just for example, people might expect that one horse will lose it's life every time the event is run?  As an example (I know it's not true!) might some of these "not naive" and savvy horse people here say "Oh yes, a horse dies at Badminton every year doing the cross country, but they love what they are doing, the veterinary attendance is very good and the end is quick".
I'm not joining the argment, I made my mind up about the racing industry many years ago.  It really hit home when there was a QED documentary called They Shoot Horses Don't They?  (I wish they'd run it again).  I am commenting because I don't think people are comparing like with like.
A total of 35 horses have died at the Grand National since 1999.  That means an average of 2.5 horses per year/race.  This does not compare to any other equine event held in this country.  People are comparing it to horses that die in hunter trials, events and even hacking.  So how many such events took place today in various parts of the UK?  And how many horses died during them I wonder?  Not many (if any!) I'm sure, and if it has happened I'm sure we'll see an RIP on here later today.  1000's of horses took part in ALL of the activities that people are comparing to the National today, and none of them died.  

My observation is that it would be pretty accurate to say that "Every year at least one horse dies during the Grand National..."  And that you can't make a comparable statement about any other competetive equine event in the UK.

Statistically a horse being entered into the Grand National is much more likely to die than one going into Badminton isn't it?


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## zefragile (9 April 2011)

glenruby said:



			I think any eventer saying they think the GN or NH racing in general is cruel (and this is not directed at you KatB but at some of the "pro-eventing" and "anti-NH" folk) are real hypocrits.
		
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I disagree, there are so many horses in the GN running at speed together that I don't think you can really compare eventing and the GN. How many horses at Badminton get brought down by other horses? (Like KatB I am not anti-racing, although I'd rather there were less runners in the GN).

As to your point about Spring Along, unless his death was related to his age then I think that you don't really have much of a point there.


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## glenruby (9 April 2011)

What do you mean 1000's took place in the other events but NONE died? I know of 3 horses that died at hunter trials/hunt rides/eventing last weekend alone - 2 due to owner errors.  I couldnt even hesitate to guess how many died competing at any level in any disipline in the UK over the last year.


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## glenruby (9 April 2011)

Oh yes, fewer runners is probably a idea - as many of the horses each year are not necessarily true fallers but brought down. Those are a direct result of the number of horses allowed in the race.


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## Tinypony (9 April 2011)

Glenruby, do the statistics, and maybe read my post again?
Is there any annual event where you can say that even one horse is expected to die every time it is run?
We're talking about what happens in one race, every year.  Every year, an average of 2.5 horses die in a single day running in the same race.  Where else does that happen?
I don't think that trying to guess how many horses die in any other sport in a year is releveant really (I'm saying this nicely, I'm not confrontational).  We're talking about a particular race.  As soon as people start listing all the other ways that horses can die then I think it becomes irrelevant.  The reason I say that is the predictablility, where else can you predict an equine fatality with such sad accuracy?  
Just to add - looking at it from another angle - how many horses might compete in the cross country stage of various events around the country during a single Saturday?  I'm not an eventer, but say for argument and maths that it's 1,000 and on that particular day 5 died (unlikely I think).  Even then, statistically, the horses taking part in those events would have been far less likely to die than a racehorse taking part in the Grand National.


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## lannerch (9 April 2011)

The difference between eventing fatalities and gn fatalities is with affiliated eventing not only are they not expected but when they do occur they will go to great dephs to find out why they occured and amendments will be made to the fence or even rules to prevent a carbon copy of the same fatality ever occuring again.

Not so with the gn ( I do no they lessened its intensity quite a few years ago ) with the gn if fatalitys occur its just one of those things.

So I too think you cannot really compare the fatatlitys in gn in the same light as the fatalitys that can occur in afiliated eventing.

I also think a fully fit horse dieing on the event or racing circuit dieing of a heart attack ( which is due to a weakness that could have occured at any time ) is not the same as one dieing as a result of a fall.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

National deaths last 12 years

2011 - 2 from heavy falls - attributed, IMO due to fast ground.
2010 - no deaths
2009 - 1 death - not from a fall, but 'I hear the Echo' collapsed and died on the run in.
2008 - 1 death - McKelvey got injured running loose after unseating
2007 - no deaths 
2006 - 1 death - Tyneandtyneagain - fall
2005 - no deaths
2004 - no deaths
2003 - no deaths
2002 - 2 deaths - The Last Fling and Manx Magic - both falls on good ground
2001 - no deaths
2000 - no deaths

I can't be bothered going further back, but 480 horses ran over the last twelve years and there have been 5 deaths from falls. More significantly the ground was good on both the days 2 horses were lost. So I guess it's to do with the speed not the fences. But how could they have forseen this weather? Also, it is dangerous to water late to change the going as false ground can be very treacherous.

It's not a huge statistic, 1 in 100. Eventing isn't much better at 3* and 4*.......


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## ladyt25 (9 April 2011)

I have to say every yer I say I am not going to watch the National yet every year I do watch it! I almost watch it as i want to know the horses have got round safely and I hate when that isn't the case. This is the first time i have known the situation like today though where the two fences had to be avoided the next cicuit round. Very say to see the sheet covering the dead horse. Just gives you a chill. I do however think it's unfortunate and noone wants to see horses fall - God, the cheers a fallen horse gets from the crowd when it's been down a while but actually gets up ok is immense - often louder than the cheer for the winner. People don't like to see fatalities. I watched some flat racing earlier on today on CH4 and I think there were two fatalities there as well - awful. They are not jumping fences. Ok so I do question whether the fact they are immature and raced to young isa contributary factor in these incidents.

I am a little confused by the two horses that die though as i thought those were two that fell at Beechers? What happened to Calgary Bay? I thought that he too was one of the fatalities at the first fence that they had to cordon off - where the sheet was covering the horse? Does anyone know because I was sure there was only one faller at that fence and that was him?

I actually don't knwo how I feel about racing - some days i think it's awful and other days I am in awe of the likes of Denman who are juat amazing talented horses. There are many accidents and fatalities in eventing every week but we don't hear about them. Christ I have seen enough fallers eventing and I don't go and watch it that much!

I do think they could lessen the incidents in the GN by maybe reducing the runners to say 30. I think that would help as I think may of the accidents happen cos the horses are effectively stampeding and can't see the fence properly. 

It did make me chuckled the though horse that plunged at the beginning (or jumped something that wasn't there) and then promptly jumped the fence so enthusiastically that it went flying! I don't think the jockey was intending that to happen and I don't think there was much he could do to have stopped it - that horse was so excited!

Oh and I am very pleased that my old PC pal Dominic Elsworth completed this year - he was 9th and i think that's the first time he's got round!


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## Tinypony (9 April 2011)

But... we still seem to be looking at the whole of eventing and comparing it to one race.  As long as we do that how can the discussion make any sense?
(Anyway, as I said, I made my mind up ages ago, and I'm not going to cook tea before the household start rioting!).


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## lannerch (9 April 2011)

Tinypony said:



			But... we still seem to be looking at the whole of eventing and comparing it to one race.  As long as we do that how can the discussion make any sense?
(Anyway, as I said, I made my mind up ages ago, and I'm not going to cook tea before the household start rioting!).
		
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Well said tinypony

We should be conparing all the fatalities jump racing with all the fatalities eventing and as a percentage in relation to number of events to make it a truer conparison!


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

Tinypony said:



			But... we still seem to be looking at the whole of eventing and comparing it to one race.  As long as we do that how can the discussion make any sense?
(Anyway, as I said, I made my mind up ages ago, and I'm not going to cook tea before the household start rioting!).
		
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Tinypony - you said horses die every year - they don't.


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## glenruby (9 April 2011)

For what its worth, at the point I was responding we were mostly discussing falls not fatalities. Falls are most definitely as expected at all levels of eventing as they are at NH racing and the GN.  

Calgary Bay did not fall at the first. It was the 4th I think. Thats Rhythm fell at the 1st. Think it was Calgary Bay that nose dived through the fence - you could see that fall coming 3 strides out.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

lannerch said:



			Well said tinypony

We should be conparing all the fatalities jump racing with all the fatalities eventing and as a percentage in relation to number of events to make it a truer conparison!
		
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That's just it though - you can't because those records are not public. I'd dearly like to see them too. I love eventing, I'm not trying to knock it, but I also love racing, and think the very open aspect of the sport, and publicity counts unfairly against it. Any sport involving horses jumping holds degrees of risk, and it's not right to subject one to more scrutiny than another as happens with racing.


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## lannerch (9 April 2011)

But with all falls in afiliated eventing a thorough investigation is carried out to see if lessons can be learned to prevent it happening again not so in nh, but fair enough they will happen in both and I am not anti gn or nh racing, however I do not think you can conpare eventing as an equivalent risk!


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

glenruby said:



			For what its worth, at the point I was responding we were mostly discussing falls not fatalities. Falls are most definitely as expected at all levels of eventing as they are at NH racing and the GN.  

Calgary Bay did not fall at the first. It was the 4th I think. Thats Rhythm fell at the 1st. Think it was Calgary Bay that nose dived through the fence - you could see that fall coming 3 strides out.
		
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Calgary Bay fell at the same fence (4th) as the ill-fated Ornais. Calgary Bay was middle to inside, whereas Ornais was on the outside of the field.

Agree about falls being expected eventing - hence the need for frangible pins.


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## ladyt25 (9 April 2011)

Calgary Bay did not fall at the first. It was the 4th I think. Thats Rhythm fell at the 1st. Think it was Calgary Bay that nose dived through the fence - you could see that fall coming 3 strides out.[/QUOTE]

No, sorry I didn't mean he fell at the first, I meant the 1st of the fences that they have to divert round on the second time round. I was pretty sure it was Calgary Bay and when they did the replay they said Calgary Bay was the one who fell and that was when the horse didn't move at all after it fell (the fall itself didn't look that bad in the replay though). When they said the horses that had died he wasn't mentioned so i was/am confused as the fatalities were definitely at 2 separate fences. Hmm, i may have to go check that out again.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

lannerch said:



			But with all falls in afiliated eventing a thorough investigation is carried out to see if lessons can be learned to prevent it happening again not so in nh, but fair enough they will happen in both and I am not anti gn or nh racing, however I do not think you can conpare eventing as an equivalent risk!
		
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It's not just that, it's the perception as was said earlier. When Zara fell and Tsunami was killed, it was poor Zara. When Daisy lost Springalong, poor Daisy. And rightly so. But nobody's baying for blood from the event fraternity, and calling for it to be banned. 

Really, I wish ALL sports were forced to have the same stringent accountability for comp records that racing has. Then maybe this argument wouldn't continue to rage.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

ladyt25 said:



			Calgary Bay did not fall at the first. It was the 4th I think. Thats Rhythm fell at the 1st. Think it was Calgary Bay that nose dived through the fence - you could see that fall coming 3 strides out.
		
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No, sorry I didn't mean he fell at the first, I meant the 1st of the fences that they have to divert round on the second time round. I was pretty sure it was Calgary Bay and when they did the replay they said Calgary Bay was the one who fell and that was when the horse didn't move at all after it fell (the fall itself didn't look that bad in the replay though). When they said the horses that had died he wasn't mentioned so i was/am confused as the fatalities were definitely at 2 separate fences. Hmm, i may have to go check that out again.[/QUOTE]

Calgary Bay got up - Ornais didn't. The second fatality was at Bechers first time round, Dooney's Gate.


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## applecart14 (9 April 2011)

I would just like to say how sickened I was when I watched the replay of the National that we taped earlier in the day.  It has made me ashamed to be british and even more ashamed that I put a bet on.  You cannot compare racing to eventing.  The two are nothing alike.  And horses run because they are herd animals and will therefore not be left behind.  So they all run to keep up with each other like they would in the wild, safety in numbers, etc.  Not because they like taking death defying leaps over fences designed to 'challenge' them.

It is a horrid race, I don't for the life of me know why I watched in and I am digusted with myself for having a bet this morning upon it.  RIP the lovely horses who gave their lives in the name of 'sport'.

And I agree with Dovorian about the inane remarks.  When Clare Spalding spoke to the jockey he mentioned about having to veer around the fallen horses and the chap to the left of him changed the subject so that it was not 'focused' on.  I have to agree that these incidents ARE NOT discussed, the BBC seem to gloss over them and the horses aren't even mentioned.  Its easy to forget that these are living breathing animals, who feel pain, fright, worry and goodness knows what else.  When you see a fataly injured horse try desparately to rise to its feet in the name of sport -I can't help but think that the British public and the racing industry is doing something wrong somewhere.

And please do not slag me off for my opinions.


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## sonjafoers (9 April 2011)

I love NH racing, I love P2P and I love Eventing however I'm with a few posters on here who say that the GN really makes me feel uneasy. I watched the Topham yesterday and felt the fences were too big so to see them again today with 2 circuits to go doesn't sit well with me. Like I say I love National Hunt but there's just something about the National that makes me question it.

I know Clare Balding gave her condolences today but there were 2 bits of reporting that p***ed me off a bit - the 1st was when she said the winner came home 'full of running' or words to that effect. Did she not see him afterwards? I thought he was going to collapse at one point, yes he came in well but to see him in that state makes a bit of a mockery of her comment. If he had come home that full of running why wasn't he in the Winners Enclosure enjoying his win?

The 2nd bit I disliked was from that p**tt Richard Pitman ( only my opinion! ) when he was interviewing in the jockeys room after. He was talking to AP and then said something like the only downside to the race was when Robbie McNamaras saddle slipped and as a result he came off. I don't know the exact words. How insensitive a comment when 2 horses had died, I know some things get said without thinking, especially with the pressure of live TV I guess, but that really takes the biscuit.


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## glenruby (9 April 2011)

Ah, it was Ornais that nose dived then - the one of the outside towards the back.


Watching it again - I think he may have lost his action 3 strides out and that was the cause of his demise.


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## applecart14 (9 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			That's just it though - you can't because those records are not public. I'd dearly like to see them too. .
		
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Someone somewhere will be keeping a tally on eventing deaths as animal aid keeps a tally on racehorse deaths which is called racehorse deathwatch.

www.horsedeathwatch.co.uk

I would also like to say that the winning horse was extremely lucky not to have collapsed and died after the race.  When you saw it walking whilst being led, it looked like it was about to go down at one point.  Disgusting, the excuse about it being hot was just that, an excuse.  Yes it was hot but the other horses didn't seem to be so affected as the winner.  Maybe questions should be asked around his fitness level.  The horse giving it all he could does not wash with me either.


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## PeterNatt (9 April 2011)

I would suggest that there is still room for improvement to reduce the number of horses killed or injured in the grand national.


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## sonjafoers (9 April 2011)

Applecart14 I couldn't agree with both of your posts more. Well said.


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## teagreen (9 April 2011)

Having just read that one of the jockeys is in a pretty bad way in hospital following a fall (not in the National, I dont think), it puts it into perspective. I'd rather a horse die than a jockey any day.Jockeys being injured is totally different - and we should be praying for him, not arguing.

Racing is NEVER going to be banned - if you don't like it, don't watch it. By Monday, everyone will have forgotten and horses will continue racing, with the odd fatality. And the stable staff and trainer and owner of that horse will grieve, and few others will notice. It happends everyday, not just in the National.

But I feel it doesn't really matter when you hear that a jockey is hurt.


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## glenruby (9 April 2011)

Worth also taking into account that racing has a much lower "human" fatality rate than eventing. 35 riders lost their lives from 1997-2008 and I believe 22 since 2008.  Nowhere near this number of jockeys have been killed in NH racing in the same time period. And those who say that eventing makes changes following horse/rider deaths and racing does not - thats not true. Regardless of the changes eventing has brought in there have still been a significant number of deaths (especially human) since their ntroduction.
Teagreen - yes I think it was Tom Scudamore yesterday. Sam WC had a rough fall before the GN too though. Nope - Peter Toole was the one hospitalised - RP reported he was regaining conscousness as he was being moved to hospital.


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## Cedars (9 April 2011)

My one and only complaint about the racing today, because I dont disagree with it and I think actually the horses are much better cared for than they are in most other areas, is that the fallen horses arent named and remembered. 

To brush over it seems a little harsh and insensitive, because at the end of the day, someone has gone home without a horse theyve loved and cared for.


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## Amaranta (9 April 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			Enjoy?  How would you know!  Those whips are out frequently, I dont think those extremely young, innocent horses have any choice in the matter.  Ban this race, just horrific.
		
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You need to do some research, NH horses are not youngsters, it is not like flat racing.

Having said that, I do not like the National and do not watch or bet on it.  To ban it however is very extreme, there are far far worse things that happen to horses and I agree that they do seem to enjoy the race.


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## 3Beasties (9 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			Having just read that one of the jockeys is in a pretty bad way in hospital following a fall (not in the National, I dont think), it puts it into perspective. I'd rather a horse die than a jockey any day.Jockeys being injured is totally different - and we should be praying for him, not arguing.

Racing is NEVER going to be banned - if you don't like it, don't watch it. By Monday, everyone will have forgotten and horses will continue racing, with the odd fatality. And the stable staff and trainer and owner of that horse will grieve, and few others will notice. It happends everyday, not just in the National.

But I feel it doesn't really matter when you hear that a jockey is hurt.
		
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Well said! I was just thinking how everyone is so concerned about the horses but no-one seems to worry about the jockeys!

Thoughts are with the hospitalised Jockey (do you know who it was?) It looked like a very heavy fall and I believe he was knocked unconscious on landing


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## Puppy (9 April 2011)

applecart14 said:



			It has made me ashamed to be british
		
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Blimey, that's a bit extreme....


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## applecart14 (9 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			I'd rather a horse die than a jockey any day. But I feel it doesn't really matter when you hear that a jockey is hurt.
		
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I have empathy for *both* horse and human. But the human has the choice of whether he risks his life or not, the horse does not.

I'd rather nothing died to be honest.  But in reality that's never going to happen.

All I would say is that I am extremely grateful to God that a) I am not a horse, and b) that I am not your horse in particular 

And that is all I have to say.


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## hollibobs (9 April 2011)

applecart14 said:



			Someone somewhere will be keeping a tally on eventing deaths as animal aid keeps a tally on racehorse deaths which is called racehorse deathwatch.

www.horsedeathwatch.co.uk

I would also like to say that the winning horse was extremely lucky not to have collapsed and died after the race.  When you saw it walking whilst being led, it looked like it was about to go down at one point.  Disgusting, the excuse about it being hot was just that, an excuse.  Yes it was hot but the other horses didn't seem to be so affected as the winner.  Maybe questions should be asked around his fitness level.  The horse giving it all he could does not wash with me either.
		
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This exactly.  I thought he was going to collapse when they were walking him into the winners enclosure 
I'm no do gooder & have watched the national for as long as I can remember & fully accept the dangers of horse sport but watching the GN today made for very un comfortable viewing for me.


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## Cedars (9 April 2011)

Hope the jockey is ok, I have to say I thought he had died on landing, the fall was awful.

I also thought the winner was about to drop dead. I was very glad when he was ok.


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## 3Beasties (9 April 2011)

applecart14 said:



			I am glad I am not your horse. 

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Huh?!


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## ladyt25 (9 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			Having just read that one of the jockeys is in a pretty bad way in hospital following a fall (not in the National, I dont think), it puts it into perspective. I'd rather a horse die than a jockey any day.Jockeys being injured is totally different - and we should be praying for him, not arguing.
		
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Was that a fall at Aintree or was that the one in the Thirsk flat race shown on CH4? That was pretty horrendous, the horse obviously severely damage it's leg, fell and just crashed through the white rails. Couldn't see where the jockey was but heard later he'd suffered a shoulder injury (although they didn't go in to much detail). There was a quite a long delay though as they had to wait for the medics to get back in place before the racing could continue.

It is amazing actually the small number of human fatalities in NH racing when you see the falls. As you said, so many people have died recently in eventing it's quite worrying.


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## Millyard Rejects (9 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			Spring Along was 'forced' to go eventing in his late teens and eventually died of a heart attack in front of hundreds of spectators.

Was there any outrage? No. Quite rightly. Because the old horse looked well and wanted to go eventing, he was bred to do it, they knew the risks with an old horse but they still did it. He died doing what he loved, everyone said. Well, same for the two that died today. It is the same principle.
		
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Fatal falls or horses collapsing are not played live anymore from eventing. 
Seems non horsey people dont like it.  The same horsey people putting bets on these horses today in their droves?



sleepingdragon10 said:



			Did Clare Balding not say how she felt unable to be jubilant about the winner knowing that 2 horses had lost their lives during the race?
Jeez, what do you want, wailing and screaming? 

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As above- the BBC dont like to get it in the ear regarding complaints about viewers been upset. Thought it was handled quite well. The presenters can only tell the viewers the news when they hear it through their earpieces or from other sources. 



Dunlin said:



			When I was at Burghley a few years ago I was the Leaf Pit. I lost count of how many times I heard people say "ahhh, damn I thought that one was going to fall" and the excitement of people saying "ohhh wow I got that fall on camera, that'll get loads of hits on youtube". Same applies to EVERY other cross country course I have been to. 

I thought Claire Balding handled the fatalities very well, she showed genuine sadness and respect.
		
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Loads of people attend events and purposely sit by the water jumps!




applecart14 said:



			I would just like to say how sickened I was when I watched the replay of the National that we taped earlier in the day.  It has made me ashamed to be british and even more ashamed that I put a bet on.  You cannot compare racing to eventing.  The two are nothing alike.  And horses run because they are herd animals and will therefore not be left behind.  So they all run to keep up with each other like they would in the wild, safety in numbers, etc.  Not because they like taking death defying leaps over fences designed to 'challenge' them.

It is a horrid race, I don't for the life of me know why I watched in and I am digusted with myself for having a bet this morning upon it.  RIP the lovely horses who gave their lives in the name of 'sport'.

And I agree with Dovorian about the inane remarks.  When Clare Spalding spoke to the jockey he mentioned about having to veer around the fallen horses and the chap to the left of him changed the subject so that it was not 'focused' on.  I have to agree that these incidents ARE NOT discussed, the BBC seem to gloss over them and the horses aren't even mentioned.  Its easy to forget that these are living breathing animals, who feel pain, fright, worry and goodness knows what else.  When you see a fataly injured horse try desparately to rise to its feet in the name of sport -I can't help but think that the British public and the racing industry is doing something wrong somewhere.

And please do not slag me off for my opinions.
		
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Any sport that requires an animal to lift all four feet off the ground is a risk sport-showjumping,eventing,racing jeeez even polo has its deaths! 
The reason deaths arent discussed is that the licence fee payer doesnt want to see or know if the horse has died! the only person that genuinely gives a monkeys is the lad or lass who led it up! 
And as I put on FB today- all those that have bet on the race should also be handing some if not all their winnings back to Thoroughbred Rehabilitation or WHW-as they often pick up the cast offs from racing.



applecart14 said:



			Someone somewhere will be keeping a tally on eventing deaths as animal aid keeps a tally on racehorse deaths which is called racehorse deathwatch.

www.horsedeathwatch.co.uk

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shame these people dont tally the 27 horses pts last month due to rescue centres couldnt take them in? and many were YOUNG TBs that never got to a racecourse


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## applecart14 (9 April 2011)

Puppy said:



			Blimey, that's a bit extreme.... 

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I suppose it is but I do feel ashamed of this country and its double standards.  An nation of animal lovers apparently.  

I don't cry at many things I see on TV but I cried this afternoon.  And I felt very ashamed too.  And the blonde who they interviewed after the race that was dancing around like a maniac screaming that she had won £1900.  Yes, love, but at what price?  Ask yourself that.


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## teagreen (9 April 2011)

ladyt25 said:



			Was that a fall at Aintree or was that the one in the Thirsk flat race shown on CH4? That was pretty horrendous, the horse obviously severely damage it's leg, fell and just crashed through the white rails. Couldn't see where the jockey was but heard later he'd suffered a shoulder injury (although they didn't go in to much detail). There was a quite a long delay though as they had to wait for the medics to get back in place before the racing could continue.

It is amazing actually the small number of human fatalities in NH racing when you see the falls. As you said, so many people have died recently in eventing it's quite worrying.
		
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The one at Aintree in the chase before the National - wasn't aware someone had fallen at Thirsk, hope he is ok too. 

I care for my horses very much, I cared for the racehorses I looked after too. Until you have seen a distraught lass who has lost her horse, you will not understand how loved each and every horse is. I'd rather they werent injured too (btw, did you see Channinbar refuse to race twice? Don't have a choice?! Ha!) but I'd rather they died than the jockeys. You can replace a horse. You can't replace a brother/sister/son/daughter.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

applecart14 said:



			I would just like to say how sickened I was when I watched the replay of the National that we taped earlier in the day.  It has made me ashamed to be british and even more ashamed that I put a bet on.  You cannot compare racing to eventing.  The two are nothing alike.  And horses run because they are herd animals and will therefore not be left behind.  So they all run to keep up with each other like they would in the wild, safety in numbers, etc.  Not because they like taking death defying leaps over fences designed to 'challenge' them.

It is a horrid race, I don't for the life of me know why I watched in and I am digusted with myself for having a bet this morning upon it.  RIP the lovely horses who gave their lives in the name of 'sport'.

And I agree with Dovorian about the inane remarks.  When Clare Spalding spoke to the jockey he mentioned about having to veer around the fallen horses and the chap to the left of him changed the subject so that it was not 'focused' on.  I have to agree that these incidents ARE NOT discussed, the BBC seem to gloss over them and the horses aren't even mentioned.  Its easy to forget that these are living breathing animals, who feel pain, fright, worry and goodness knows what else.  When you see a fataly injured horse try desparately to rise to its feet in the name of sport -I can't help but think that the British public and the racing industry is doing something wrong somewhere.

And please do not slag me off for my opinions.
		
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Clare Balding - not Spalding. 

Out of interest, what makes you special that you can say what you like unchallenged, when everyone else is debating their point of view?

You clearly have no concept of the racehorse's brain, or how he acts on the course, during or after a race. And I think we watched different races, because at no point today did we see a (and I quote ) ''fataly injured horse try desparately to rise to its feet in the name of sport''


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## meandmyself (9 April 2011)

I do wonder if there needs to be stricter qualifications for the National. Not sure which horse is was, but one of the trainers interviewed before the race said that he wasn't a good jumper. Seems like a silly risk to take on such a gruelling course- not just for the horse in question, but for any horses unlucky enough to get tangled up/brought down if the bad jumper falls. 

On the same note, having less horses in the race would likely make it safer. Most of the falls happened early, and I think that how bunched up they get at fences plays a big part. 

Having a limit of say, 25-30 really top class horses would make it just as good a race, but hopefully one with less risk.


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## Leaf (9 April 2011)

I would also like to say that the winning horse was extremely lucky not to have collapsed and died after the race.  When you saw it walking whilst being led, it looked like it was about to go down at one point.  Disgusting, the excuse about it being hot was just that, an excuse.  Yes it was hot but the other horses didn't seem to be so affected as the winner.  Maybe questions should be asked around his fitness level.  The horse giving it all he could does not wash with me either.[/QUOTE]

I think that is an excellent idea, i'm sure that Donald McCain Jnr and Snr would welcome any advice and training tips you could offer, maybe you should contact them? Out of curiosity what sphere of competition do you/have you worked? in I ask with genuine interest not sarcasm.


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## Puppy (9 April 2011)

sleepingdragon10 said:



			Did Clare Balding not say how she felt unable to be jubilant about the winner knowing that 2 horses had lost their lives during the race?
		
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Yes, I thought that Clare Balding displayed the perfect balance of her love for the sport, but genuine sadness for those lost, and respect to the stables left in mourning. 

Re. the fallen horses being referred to as 'obstacles' it has occurred to me that the GN is quite a 'family' viewing event, and the BBC are probably aware of that, hence their terminology. Plus, of course the need for clarity as to which horses are injured and allowing a little time for those connected, who care for the horses personally, to be notified before it is broadcast on the tv.


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## lannerch (9 April 2011)

glenruby said:



			Worth also taking into account that racing has a much lower "human" fatality rate than eventing. 35 riders lost their lives from 1997-2008 and I believe 22 since 2008.  Nowhere near this number of jockeys have been killed in NH racing in the same time period. And those who say that eventing makes changes following horse/rider deaths and racing does not - thats not true. Regardless of the changes eventing has brought in there have still been a significant number of deaths (especially human) since their ntroduction.
Teagreen - yes I think it was Tom Scudamore yesterday. Sam WC had a rough fall before the GN too though. Nope - Peter Toole was the one hospitalised - RP reported he was regaining conscousness as he was being moved to hospital.
		
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Racing may make changes but not to the same extent as eventing! Now I do take you point though about the human fatalities and a good conter argument would be to suggest that eventing only takes each and every horse fall seriously ( where the horses shoulders touch the ground ) because of this higher rider fatatlity rate whether this is the case we will neve know.

The rider fatatlities though are due to the difference in mainly speed of the sports, jockeys even in rotational falls due to their higher speeds mainly but also a littel to the fact they have very short stirrup legths and are already out of the saddle tend to be thrown clear, not so in most eventing rotational falls.

Sorry to hear of the jockey who is in hospital though hope he is not serious and back to full health soon.


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## applecart14 (9 April 2011)

3Beasties said:



			Huh?!  

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Well this poster obviously doesn't appear to have a lot of empathy towards horses is the point I was trying to make.


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## teagreen (9 April 2011)

applecart14 said:



			Well this poster obviously doesn't appear to have a lot of empathy towards horses is the point I was trying to make.
		
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Well you think wrong, I have plenty of emptahy towards them. I love my horses dearly. I don't enjoy seeing them die. But in a high risk sport, I could rather see the horse die than the human. I am more concerned about how the jockey is in this case than the horse that died. I am sad for it, my heart truely aches for the connections because I have seen how awful it is - but it can be replaced. The poor boy who has been injured cannot. 

There is a chance in any equine sport that horse or rider might be injured. And each time, I'd rather the horse was than the human. Because a human life is so, so precious.


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## Puppy (9 April 2011)

applecart14 said:



			I have empathy for *both* horse and human. But the human has the choice of whether he risks his life or not, the horse does not.

I'd rather nothing died to be honest.  But in reality that's never going to happen.

All I would say is that I am extremely grateful to God that a) I am not a horse, and b) that I am not your horse in particular 

And that is all I have to say.
		
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Coming from someone who this week posted a thread about how they bute their horse every weekend to compete, that is blooming ironic!!


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## ChesnutsRoasting (9 April 2011)

Didn't bet on it, didn't watch on it. The footballing fraternity involved are enough to put me off. Take part in high risk activities by all means, if it all goes pear shaped, don't expect any sincere sympathy from me.


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## applecart14 (9 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			Clare Balding - not Spalding. 

Out of interest, what makes you special that you can say what you like unchallenged, when everyone else is debating their point of view?

 And I think we watched different races, because at no point today did we see a (and I quote ) ''fataly injured horse try desparately to rise to its feet in the name of sport''
		
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I don't watch much racing and stuff so I got her name wrong, apologies.

And I don't think I am special and that means I can say what I like unchallenged.  I just said don't slag me off.  Bit of difference.

And I wasn't referring to today by saying about the fatally injured horse, however the one that landed in a heap at Beechers did try to rise but couldn't unless I am mistaken.  I am guessing that was one of the ones that died, by that I mean pts.  I saw it raise its head but couldn't lift its body.

And I don't watch racing anymore although when I was young I did gamble quite a lot on horse racing almost to a point of addiction but that's another story.  But I am entitled to my opinion.  My tastes have changed.


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## 3Beasties (9 April 2011)

Puppy said:



			Re. the fallen horses being referred to as 'obstacles' it has occurred to me that the GN is quite a 'family' viewing event, and the BBC are probably aware of that, hence their terminology. Plus, of course the need for clarity as to which horses are injured and allowing a little time for those connected, who care for the horses personally, to be notified before it is broadcast on the tv.
		
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That's a fair point, I didn't think about the children watching and the parents who might not want their children to know what was under the Tarps.


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## GLEEK (9 April 2011)

I havent read all of the posts as there are so many so sorry if i am repeating someone else. 

Out of all of the posts i have read no one mentioned how well the winner was looked after. I thought it was very good of thejockey to get off the horse the trainer and lads to get the horse un tacked and cooled off as quick as possable. I thought Claire Balding looked very sad and looked like she meant it when she was talking about the horses that were put down today. 
Also if the horses that were put down today were 'pet' horses they would not of been put down as quickly wether they were in the field, eventing, polo or hunting. They would be waiting on a decision with what to do with the horse. Where as these racehorses during a race have vets travelling next to them.


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## ladyt25 (9 April 2011)

I would also like to say that the winning horse was extremely lucky not to have collapsed and died after the race. When you saw it walking whilst being led, it looked like it was about to go down at one point. Disgusting, the excuse about it being hot was just that, an excuse. Yes it was hot but the other horses didn't seem to be so affected as the winner. Maybe questions should be asked around his fitness level. The horse giving it all he could does not wash with me either.[/QUOTE]

But all the jockeys (or the majority) got straight off the horses after the race - I have never seen them do that before so I can only assume that decision had been made earlier that that was what they were going to do. I agree the horse looked tired but every one of those horses at the end were untacked very swiftly and were having buckets of water thrown on them. Of course they were tired, once the adrenalin starts to wane and the lactic acid has built up in the muscles then they will feel it. When you saw the horse being lead back to the stables though later on I thought he looked like he'd come round a bit again though and was fine.

Oddly, I did actually think the horses looked to be running on quite strongly coming up the home straight compared to some other years when i have seen the race. I actually think the trainers and the stable staff do an excellent job to ensure the horses get immediate attention after the race.

I do think they should reduce the numbers for this race and I also think the horses should have to qualify and be up to the standard that is required. It think one had only done a couple of hurdle races before being put in the GN. I think that's daft. Then again, the horse that came 4th (his name escapes me at the moment) hadn't raced since last years GN!! Hmm, maybe maximum 30 horses would be a better race and would lessen the serious incidents.


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## applecart14 (9 April 2011)

Puppy said:



			Coming from someone who this week posted a thread about how they bute their horse every weekend to compete, that is blooming ironic!!
		
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For gods sake, on vets advice with a sound horse who is seen by the vet as and when necessary, and who has had £3k of veterinary treatment to put right the spavin he is suffering from.  Who is not lame.  Who is given the best of everything and who is loved as much as a horse could be loved.


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## Millyard Rejects (9 April 2011)

3Beasties said:



			That's a fair point, I didn't think about the children watching and the parents who might not want their children to know what was under the Tarps.
		
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Sadly this just doesnt happen in racing. A mare died on the yard before christmas, her body taken to top of yard to be near the driveway for the meat wagon. Neighbors kids were looking out of window asking why the horse was there,they were told she was asleep.Tarp put over her and they were told this was a blanket


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## teagreen (9 April 2011)

The jockey is in a critical condition. Please, get some perspective and pray for him


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## Vizslak (9 April 2011)

I would also like to say that the winning horse was extremely lucky not to have collapsed and died after the race. When you saw it walking whilst being led, it looked like it was about to go down at one point. Disgusting, the excuse about it being hot was just that, an excuse. Yes it was hot but the other horses didn't seem to be so affected as the winner. *Maybe questions should be asked around his fitness level.* The horse giving it all he could does not wash with me either.

^^^you cant be serious?! He WON the GN and you think his fitness needs questioning??? Really?! 
I sat down today to watch the GN knowing full well there was little chance with the ground and todays immensely irregular heat for this time of year, that everyone was going to get home safe. It's sad, but its part of the risk of racing. Personally if I owned a horse running in todays national, I wouldnt have run it, the odds were stacked against them today but racing in general is risky, as are other equestrian sports. I'm amazed the two fallers were todays only fatalities tbh. I too did have a huge pang of worry for the winner when he came in, he was very close to collapse at one point. 
Each to their own, I know many people that wouldnt watch todays race (and wont watch the national in general) One of them had a horse running at aintree today but her husband attended without her as she doesnt like watching the national, thats fair enough to me. Its not nice to see horses run to their deaths, and it was pretty much (in my opinion) a foregone conclusion that there would be fatalities today. I still choose to watch it. Its an immense test of the best, its gruelling and yes dangerous, amazing to watch though. Dont forget this is what these horses are bred for, they simply wouldnt exist at all without racing and as someone pointed out in an earlier post we all benefit from the racing industry and so do our horses. 
RIP Ornais and Dooneys Gate. Thoughts to all the connections of these horses who will undoubtedly be very upset this evening. Huge thoughts to Dooneys Gates Jockey as well who had a truely horrific fall, I hope he is ok.


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## lhotse (9 April 2011)

If he's not lame or in pain, why does he need the bute?
Racehorses are drug tested to ensure they are not given bute to camouflage pain. They have the best care in the world, and I'm sure that the owner of Monet's Garden would have something to say to all those who say that their horses are not loved.


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## applecart14 (9 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			The jockey is in a critical condition. Please, get some perspective and pray for him 

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I am sorry that the jockey has been injured, of course I am.  I hope he goes on to make a full recovery.  We all run the risk of injury or death doing the sports we love and no one likes to see anyone injured, that is not in dispute.


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## DragonSlayer (9 April 2011)

Puppy said:



			Coming from someone who this week posted a thread about how they bute their horse every weekend to compete, that is blooming ironic!!
		
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Hahaha!


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## applecart14 (9 April 2011)

lhotse said:



			If he's not lame or in pain, why does he need the bute?
Racehorses are drug tested to ensure they are not given bute to camouflage pain. They have the best care in the world, and I'm sure that the owner of Monet's Garden would have something to say to all those who say that their horses are not loved.
		
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I don't know but I tell you what I'll give you the vets number if you want and you can ask him.  It was his suggestion.  It was either bute everyday for life (14 per week) or one or two every week or fortnight.

And I didn't say that racehorses aren't loved, for Gods sake, why does everyone feel the need to twist everything someone says on this forum.  I'm sick of it.  All I said was that my horse couldn't be more loved.  I wasn't referring to anything else.


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## Flame_ (9 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			The jockey is in a critical condition.
		
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  This is why these horse sports perhaps won't last out into the future.  Too many great, well prepared riders are hurt and killed. There are safer ways of getting a thrill and making a living than leaping large fences on horses.

To the people arguing about who does and doesn't love their horses, horses couldn't give a monkeys about whether anyone loves them, they just want to be comfortable and have their needs met.


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## Nickles1973 (9 April 2011)

I have had been fascinated with the Grand National since I was a little girl and my beloved Grandad who loved a flutter would put "50p each way" on a horse of my choosing. In my naivity as a child I wondered at the spectacle of it all and adored the fairy tale stories of horses like Rummy and Aldaniti.
I am now 37 and very much a "grown up" that owns an ex flat racer of my own. (My dream horse!) I still watch the "National" but now with a feeling of trepidation. I appreciate that the horses are bred to race and I am sure that they love it. My own horse loves nothing more than a good canter out with his buddies. But I am sure that it could still be a specticle if it was made safer for both the horses and jockeys.
I accept the arguement that horses die in all areas of horse sport and suffer life ending injuries in their fields but do we routinely turn out horses in groups of 40? Are horses regularly entered into 4* events after less than perfect preparations? I often feel that some of the runners are there to make up the numbers or as a last chance before calling it a day, rather than because they have a genuine chance of winning the race. I am sure that others have made this point before (I haven't read all the replies) but I just felt I should add my p.o.v. x


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

Nickles1973 said:



			I often feel that some of the runners are there to make up the numbers or as a last chance before calling it a day, rather than because they have a genuine chance of winning the race.
		
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Why? Who?


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## ChesnutsRoasting (9 April 2011)

applecart14 said:



			I don't know but I tell you what I'll give you the vets number if you want and you can ask him.  It was his suggestion.  It was either bute everyday for life (14 per week) or one or two every week or fortnight.

And I didn't say that racehorses aren't loved, for Gods sake, why does everyone feel the need to twist everything someone says on this forum.  I'm sick of it.  All I said was that my horse couldn't be more loved.  I wasn't referring to anything else.
		
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Some feel the need to twist other peoples words, to justify their own reasoning. Don't take it to heart, your opinions are just as valid as theirs.


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## lhotse (9 April 2011)

Actually, I didn't say that Applecart implied that the horses were not loved and cared for, but others on this thread have, hence re-read what I have written 'to all those who'.

I have no gripe with Applecart, and apologise if he thought I had twisted his words, it was not my intention.


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## paddi22 (9 April 2011)

i couldn't watch it after the first bad fall, just left a sick feeling in my stomach. i ahve an exracer and i havent been able to enjoy racing since i got him for some weird reason. i know there are risks in every sport, but there just seems to be too many horses jumping together to be safe.

i don't think it comparable to eventing or showjumping, where a horse and rider pretty much have complete control and awareness of the course. grand national horses don't have that control in such a large field, if a horse goes down it can easily end up killing another one behind it. i know this happens in racing too, but such a large field gives unfair odds for safety.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

Quote from RP




			6.50pm Jockey Peter Toole, who fell on Classic Fly in the Maghull Novices' Chase earlier on the card, is being kept under sedation in hospital with possible head injuries - according to trainer Charlie Mann.
		
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And Cornelius Lysaght on twitter:

_'Doctors say jockey Peter Toole in a critical condition in hospital after a fall in one of the early races on Grand National day' _

Thoughts to him and his family.


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## lhotse (9 April 2011)

Oh hell, hope he makes a rapid improvement


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## applecart14 (9 April 2011)

lhotse said:



			I have no gripe with Applecart, and apologise if he thought I had twisted his words, it was not my intention.
		
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My fault too I guess.  And I am a she not a he.  Its my Dad in the photo holding the horse and my O/H and our beagle bitch Candy!!  Someone else referred to me as a he the other day, I think I'm going to get my siggy changed! he, he.   Its me jumping in the middle photo.


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## SecretSquirrell379 (9 April 2011)

I must say I havn't read all of the posts but I don't like the Grand National, it makes me cry because I am a soppy bint and I get really upset . What do I do about it? I don't watch it, don't bet on it and thats it!!

When we go to Newmarket Nights I get myself all upset over the horse racing BUT I have to say that the horses really do seem to enjoy it, its just me that gets silly over it. I've been a couple of times racing (not Newmarket nights) and both times horses have died so I now don't go and don't watch it either.

Each to their own, strangely enough I love going to Burghley and Badminton!


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## Nickles1973 (9 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			Why? Who?
		
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If you had a horse that had suffered a severe in injury in 2008 and had run only twice since in hunter chases would you seriously enter him into the world's toughest steeplechase? Read the form on Ornais.
I don't doubt that the people involved have what they think are great "outside chances" precisely because the race outcome isn't easily predictable and because of rare "fairytail" stories. And I am certain that the very same people are terribly upset about the loss today of these fine creatures. But if there was a qualification criteria and perhaps a smaller number of runners the race would still be a spectacle but also safer for all those (jockeys included) involved. x


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## Sussexbythesea (9 April 2011)

jenbleep said:



			Yes it is sad, but come on...I thought 2 out of 40 wasn't bad for such a large race, plus any horses that are in trouble are in the best hands.

Horses die out hacking, it's unfortunate but true! Plus with all the adrenaline I doubt they would have felt it
		
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You are joking? A 5% mortality rate is OK? So if 5% of horses died at every XC event that would be OK? 

Yes horses die doing other things - of course they do they've got to die somewhere but with it's high mortality rate and the potential for serious injury this race is beyond ever being enjoyable to watch for me.


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## lhotse (9 April 2011)

applecart14 said:



			My fault too I guess.  And I am a she not a he.  Its my Dad in the photo holding the horse and my O/H and our beagle bitch Candy!!  Someone else referred to me as a he the other day, I think I'm going to get my siggy changed! he, he.   Its me jumping in the middle photo.
		
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Hehe, that's a classic. Sorry!!!


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## glenruby (9 April 2011)

I hope he pulls through. That is horrible. 
I had 5 friends riding in today's race 2 of whom hit the deck. One is quite battered and bruised but all will of those be back on track in a few days. Quite a relief.
As regards preparation, Majestic Concorde was one who had mostly just jumped hurdles I believe as did the winner in his preparation for today. He only jumped a chase once the handicaps came out. Majestic Concorde unseated when the saddle slipped. And Stae of Play was the one who hadnt run since he was 3rd in last years race - this prep was not to his detriment now was it?

I agree that decreasing to 30 horses would not be to the detriment of the atmosphere and occasion but would make it a bit safer.
Paddi- what you are saying is right in one sense, the increased danger of racing (and GN in particular) is the fact that the jockey has no control over what happens around him - horses falling, riders cutting others up and loose horses. If you think about it, it is mostly poor riding ability, poor control or poor judgement that lead to fatal falls in eventing. That element appears to be less in racing and outside elements play an important role too. (Controversial Im sure)
Comments on the RP website suggest that the reason for the increase in fatalities at the GN in recent years is the lowered fences allowing jockeys to take on the course at greater speeds. I do think this may be a factor.


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## Echo Bravo (9 April 2011)

I really do hope that some of you grow up, death is an everyday thing whether human, horse, cattle,sheep pigs etc. the 2 horses wouldn't have felt a thing and again only one of you have mentioned the young jockey that was injured, says alot about some of you.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

Nickles1973 said:



			If you had a horse that had suffered a severe in injury in 2008 and had run only twice since in hunter chases would you seriously enter him into the world's toughest steeplechase? Read the form on Ornais.
I don't doubt that the people involved have what they think are great "outside chances" precisely because the race outcome isn't easily predictable and because of rare "fairytail" stories. And I am certain that the very same people are terribly upset about the loss today of these fine creatures. But if there was a qualification criteria and perhaps a smaller number of runners the race would still be a spectacle but also safer for all those (jockeys included) involved. x
		
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Why would that make him any different from Aldaniti? And are you seriously suggesting that PN is incapable of getting a horse fit or sound enough to run?
The horse carried 10-4. He's won some nice races, was lightly raced, and easily had the class for the race. Presumably he was brought back in Hunter Chases to give him a reintroduction to fences to see how he was. 

I remember him, I've backed him in the past, he was a class act, and running him in HCs is not so very different to running Aintree bound horses over hurdles. 

If you perhaps read the form _*properly*_, he's had a gentle introduction back to racing. That's some leap of faith to indicate that was the reason for the fall.


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## Leaf (9 April 2011)

Nickles1973 said:



			If you had a horse that had suffered a severe in injury in 2008 and had run only twice since in hunter chases would you seriously enter him into the world's toughest steeplechase? Read the form on Ornais.
I don't doubt that the people involved have what they think are great "outside chances" precisely because the race outcome isn't easily predictable and because of rare "fairytail" stories. And I am certain that the very same people are terribly upset about the loss today of these fine creatures. But if there was a qualification criteria and perhaps a smaller number of runners the race would still be a spectacle but also safer for all those (jockeys included) involved. x
		
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there is a criteria it's a  handicap mark, for example the horse that won the Topham Chase(same course but half the distance)  yesterday (Always Waining) for the second year running didn't qualify to run in the GN as not rated high enough.


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## Flame_ (9 April 2011)

glenruby said:



			If you think about it, it is mostly poor riding ability, poor control or poor judgement that lead to fatal falls in eventing. That element appears to be less in racing and outside elements play an important role too. (Controversial Im sure)
		
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Plenty of great, well prepared riders killed and seriously injured eventing too, when there is no error made. All these jumping big fixed fences sports are very risky to horses and riders, even with all the talent, preparation and safety equipment in the world. 

Plus like you say, make things safer one way, like lowing the jumps, and what happens? They ride faster. It is dangerous no matter what, and I expect there will come a day (sadly?) when the level of risk is the end of these sports.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

glenruby said:



			Comments on the RP website suggest that the reason for the increase in fatalities at the GN in recent years is the lowered fences allowing jockeys to take on the course at greater speeds. I do think this may be a factor.
		
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Me too. Although I think the numbers could be addressed, I'm not sure how much would change as the jocks will still vy for position. 

Neither of today's fatalities was linked to too many runners. Ornais was clear, just too quick, and Dooney's Gate was in front and brought down West End and poss the Pipe horse too......


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## Minxie (9 April 2011)

Personally I hate the GN.  Too many riders over a course which is too long and too strenuous - I's either shorten the course or reduce the number of fences and definitely reduce the number of horses. So many falls are caused by horses being 'caught up' with those fallen ahead of them.

I used to ride work for a national hunt trainer and decided i didn't like what i used to see (not by my own trainer i hasten to add - he's a good guy).

But each to their own as well so if people want to watch then that's up to them for sure.

However hasn't the jockey just received a suspension for over use of the whip.  He must have known how much his horse was struggling so I certainly don't commend him for the win.  I didn't watch but have read the news stories of how the winner needed immediate attention and wasn't lead into the winners enclosure (apologies if that's a load of pants just stated in a news item).  The jockey must have realised he was pushing the horse beyond its limits.  

Personally a race - no matter how valuable - is not worth that.  Yes ever horse runs the risk of a hideous fall and fatality.  But to foceably push an animal which has clearly given its all is hardly noble - or a fair test of the horses ability. Its just pathetically commercial. 

I am so sorry to read there is an injured jockey and i hope he makes a speedy recovery.  My thoughts definitely with him and his family.


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## ladyt25 (9 April 2011)

glenruby said:



			I hope he pulls through. That is horrible. 
I had 5 friends riding in today's race 2 of whom hit the deck. One is quite battered and bruised but all will of those be back on track in a few days. Quite a relief.
As regards preparation, Majestic Concorde was one who had mostly just jumped hurdles I believe as did the winner in his preparation for today. He only jumped a chase once the handicaps came out. Majestic Concorde unseated when the saddle slipped. And Stae of Play was the one who hadnt run since he was 3rd in last years race - this prep was not to his detriment now was it?
		
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That was what I was meaning - State of Play has evidently only been training the last year in preparation for the GN, he was not put in any races since last years GN. He certainly did superbly. That's what i was effectively saying and was contradicting my comment on the same post where I thought horse should have to qualify in some way to be able to race in the GN, they should be able to show they are capable. But State of Play didn't do anything it was obviously just good training and preparation in the year between his last effort.

Essentially, I am saying it is hard to say how to improve the safety of the race as accidents and injuries can happen to the best horses even in a smaller race. 

As for who posted saying people haven't mentioned the jockey, I think that's a little unfair. The injured jockey was not in the National, he was injured in an earlier race so many people would not have known that a jockey was injured. I am sure everyone feels for him and his family but he does choose to compete in a very dangerous sport. It is a risk you take. I do hope he pulls through, we all do I am sure.


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## huntley (9 April 2011)

My only reaction to today's race was to question why the horses were still on the course and why one of them was just covered leaving it painfully obvious what had happened. Why the horse was not removed off the course I do not know, but I do feel they could have left the screens up. In fifty years of watching the National I can not remember fences having to be bypassed before. They were maybe still dealing with the horse at Bechers so therefore totally understandable. I thought Clare Balding and Richard Dunwoody dealt with it extremely well and with the sympathy that one would expect, particularly for the stable staff involved. I was more concerned for the horses that did finish and I hope they are all OK.


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## Minxie (9 April 2011)

ladyt25 said:



			Essentially, I am saying it is hard to say how to improve the safety of the race as accidents and injuries can happen to the best horses even in a smaller race.
		
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Have fewer entries over a shorter course.


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## Sun (9 April 2011)

Echo Bravo said:



			I really do hope that some of you grow up, death is an everyday thing whether human, horse, cattle,sheep pigs etc. the 2 horses wouldn't have felt a thing and again only one of you have mentioned the young jockey that was injured, says alot about some of you.

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Two horses die in front of the nation on TV, it was shocking to see, with the bodies lay covered while the race continues was a very sad sight. Watching animals die in the name of sport, is bull fighting or dog fighting ok? where do YOU draw the line?

The young jockey choose to be there, he made a conscious decision to participate in the earlyier race & as he was not in the GN I dont see why his fall is relivant to a discussion about the GN


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## Echo Bravo (9 April 2011)

And the young jockey is in a poor way, says alot about you


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## Nickles1973 (9 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			Why would that make him any different from Aldaniti? And are you seriously suggesting that PN is incapable of getting a horse fit or sound enough to run?
The horse carried 10-4. He's won some nice races, was lightly raced, and easily had the class for the race. Presumably he was brought back in Hunter Chases to give him a reintroduction to fences to see how he was. 

I remember him, I've backed him in the past, he was a class act, and running him in HCs is not so very different to running Aintree bound horses over hurdles. 

If you perhaps read the form _*properly*_, he's had a gentle introduction back to racing. That's some leap of faith to indicate that was the reason for the fall.
		
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I feel that my point over qualification still stands, he may well have had a great chance before his injury in 2008 and a gentle introduction back to racing it may have been, but 2 starts and then the "National"? Would you imagine having an event horse injured a couple of years ago bringing it back to fitness and then taking it out to a couple of gentle events before taking it to Badminton? 
I don't pretend to know everything about horse racing or any horse sport for that matter, and I am as always still enthralled by the spectacle and bravery of all those involved, but I do feel that there are ways that this race could be made safer for both horses and jockeys.


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## teagreen (9 April 2011)

Sun said:



			The young jockey choose to be there, he made a conscious decision participate in the race.
		
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Say someone you know gets in a car tomorrow and has a car crash. Are you saying you wouldn't feel sorry for them because they chose to be in the car?

Can't believe people aren't showing more respect. I'm sure that if I'd written that he'd passed away, people would still be saying 'He chose to do it' - how insensitive can you get. The horses don't matter in comparison to a situation like this. Sad that they died, but so did thousands last year and they were replaced and everyone moved on. This young guy can't be replaced.


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## lhotse (9 April 2011)

Bull fighting and dog fighting are two completely different entities and to even compare them to racing is really showing your ignorance.


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## lhotse (9 April 2011)

Sun said:



			Two horses die in front of the nation on TV, it was shocking to see, with the bodies lay covered while the race continues was a very sad sight. Watching animals die in the name of sport, is bull fighting or dog fighting ok? where do YOU draw the line?

The young jockey choose to be there, he made a conscious decision to participate in the earlyier race & as he was not in the GN I dont see why his fall is relivant to a discussion about the GN
		
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I have pressed the button on your post, prior to it being edited. I think it is highly disrespectful at this time.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

Nickles1973 said:



			I feel that my point over qualification still stands, he may well have had a great chance before his injury in 2008 and a gentle introduction back to racing it may have been, but 2 starts and then the "National"? Would you imagine having an event horse injured a couple of years ago bringing it back to fitness and then taking it out to a couple of gentle events before taking it to Badminton? 
I don't pretend to know everything about horse racing or any horse sport for that matter, and I am as always still enthralled by the spectacle and bravery of all those involved, but I do feel that there are ways that this race could be made safer for both horses and jockeys.
		
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But ........ his fitness had SFA to do with the fall - he missed and went skywards, bless him. Nothing to do with his lack of prep. They'd only gone less than a mile. 
He was, also, a sound jumper if my memory serves me - he looked so like on of my own horses I always followed him. Sorry, but you accusation is well shaky, and seriously insulting to the team at Ditcheat.


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## Sun (9 April 2011)

lhotse said:



			Bull fighting and dog fighting are two completely different entities and to even compare them to racing is really showing your ignorance.
		
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no, you are twisting what I said. 

I said, watching horses die on tv, bullfighting or dog fighting, where do you draw the line?? I consider bull fighting considerable worst than what happened today, however if it is okay to enjoy a race while you know the risks are very high of equine fatality then why are other sports that also result in the death of animals not ok??


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

Sun said:



			Two horses die in front of the nation on TV, it was shocking to see, with the bodies lay covered while the race continues was a very sad sight. Watching animals die in the name of sport, is bull fighting or dog fighting ok? where do YOU draw the line?

The young jockey choose to be there, he made a conscious decision to participate in the earlyier race & as he was not in the GN I dont see why his fall is relivant to a discussion about the GN
		
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You're mad. Clearly.


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## Leaf (9 April 2011)

huntley said:



			My only reaction to today's race was to question why the horses were still on the course and why one of them was just covered leaving it painfully obvious what had happened. Why the horse was not removed off the course I do not know, but I do feel they could have left the screens up. In fifty years of watching the National I can not remember fences having to be bypassed before. They were maybe still dealing with the horse at Bechers so therefore totally understandable. I thought Clare Balding and Richard Dunwoody dealt with it extremely well and with the sympathy that one would expect, particularly for the stable staff involved. I was more concerned for the horses that did finish and I hope they are all OK.
		
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they can't really remove a horse on the track as they need certain equipment that would be more of a hazard.

I think bypassing the fences is progress it used to just be a marker that the jockeys had to keep to one side of thus squeezng them into the fence in a smaller space, but last year was the first year that every fence could be bypassed if needed. This has obvously drawn attention to accidents but has enabled emergency staff a chance to asses and treat on the field.Jockey Peter Toole's fall in the Maghill novice is a good example.


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## glenruby (9 April 2011)

Caledonia - I still think Ornais may have been injured prior to jumping that fence - he lost his action on the approach. Guess it doesnt change things anyway though but perhaps a heart attack or similar is why he appeared to be lifeless on landing.


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## Sun (9 April 2011)

lhotse said:



			I have pressed the button on your post, prior to it being edited. I think it is highly disrespectful at this time.
		
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if you wish, go ahead and push the button.

This post is titled "Re: Such a SAD day for so many fantastic horses ... The Grand National" you are the one going off post.


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## lhotse (9 April 2011)

Not twisting anything, you brought dog fighting and bullfighting into the equation and used them as a parallel. They are not remotely similar, dog fighting is illegal for starters!!!!


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## zefragile (9 April 2011)

Echo Bravo said:



			I really do hope that some of you grow up, death is an everyday thing whether human, horse, cattle,sheep pigs etc. the 2 horses wouldn't have felt a thing and again only one of you have mentioned the young jockey that was injured, says alot about some of you.

Click to expand...

These threads are about the Grand National. Maybe a lot of posters only watched the one race and were unaware of the young jockey that was injured.


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## teagreen (9 April 2011)

Sun said:



			if you wish, go ahead and push the button.

This post is titled "Re: Such a SAD day for so many fantastic horses ... The Grand National" you are the one going off post.
		
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So because it didn't happen in the race in the title of this post, it doesn't matter?! 

It puts perspective on this post. It is sad that 2 horses died in the national, but we should be thinking about this young guy tonight. Totally overrides the National.


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## lhotse (9 April 2011)

Sun said:



			if you wish, go ahead and push the button.

This post is titled "Re: Such a SAD day for so many fantastic horses ... The Grand National" you are the one going off post.
		
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Oh dear me.........


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## Sun (9 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			Say someone you know gets in a car tomorrow and has a car crash. Are you saying you wouldn't feel sorry for them because they chose to be in the car?

Can't believe people aren't showing more respect. I'm sure that if I'd written that he'd passed away, people would still be saying 'He chose to do it' - how insensitive can you get. The horses don't matter in comparison to a situation like this. Sad that they died, but so did thousands last year and they were replaced and everyone moved on. This young guy can't be replaced.
		
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???

again, I came onto the post to discuss my feelings regarding the horse deaths. If you wish we can start a new post to discuss the jockeys? theough I may not however have much of an opinion, because accidents do happen when riding,  and though I wish him a speedy recovery I am sure there is no real debate needed on his behalf??


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## zefragile (9 April 2011)

alligator40 said:



			ROFL. 

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What's your problem with my post?


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## Sun (9 April 2011)

lhotse said:



			Oh dear me.........
		
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LOL at you !!


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## lhotse (9 April 2011)

No, you are right, no debate needed on his behalf, but a little more respect from you would be nice.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

glenruby said:



			Caledonia - I still think Ornais may have been injured prior to jumping that fence - he lost his action on the approach. Guess it doesnt change things anyway though but perhaps a heart attack or similar is why he appeared to be lifeless on landing.
		
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You could well be right - I think that's more common than reported. (One Man, Detroit City, etc) I didn't see it clearly enough, but I do also think he was dead on landing, or as soon as he broke his neck. 

Either way, it's tragic. Both horses had falls similar to the one that has hurt Peter Toole. Brave men and horses.


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## zefragile (9 April 2011)

alligator40 said:



			I found it funny.
		
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I didn't think that what I wrote was funny, it was merely a suggestion. I know that I only became aware of any jockey injuries on this forum.


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## horseandshoes77 (9 April 2011)

Well after the other thread on racehorses being sent to slaughter , i guess i think at least they died quickly and doing something for which they were bred for. Not nice but some have worse fates !!


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## glenruby (9 April 2011)

---


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## Sun (9 April 2011)

lhotse said:



			No, you are right, no debate needed on his behalf, but a little more respect from you would be nice.
		
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I was stating a fact.


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## CelticGal (9 April 2011)

My post is not related to any other reply or person.   Hopefully the link will work.   Made me think because those beautiful creatures, have no idea of whats expected of them.   I am glad that the jockey of the surviving TB has been reprimanded.   Think he got a wee bit carried away... with his whip which was quite obvious as the TV depicted.  

http://newsthump.com/2011/04/08/gra...end-cruelty-by-destroying-horses-before-race/

I think the above is abit exteme but makes a point... 

Sorry if the link does not work... Must try harder eh? lol

x


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## Slinkyunicorn (9 April 2011)

Is there any news on the jockey of the horse who fell at Beechers? when they interviewed Ruby Walsh at the end he asked how the jockey was a he said it was a bad fall I hope he is ok as losing your ride would be bad enough


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## paddi22 (9 April 2011)

Flame_ said:



			Plenty of great, well prepared riders killed and seriously injured eventing too, when there is no error made. All these jumping big fixed fences sports are very risky to horses and riders, even with all the talent, preparation and safety equipment in the world. 

Plus like you say, make things safer one way, like lowing the jumps, and what happens? They ride faster. It is dangerous no matter what, and I expect there will come a day (sadly?) when the level of risk is the end of these sports.
		
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but don't you  think if two eventing horses died on the same course and a jockey is in critical condition that some adjustments would be made to how that event was run in future?

you talk about lowering the jumps,  but not about reducing the running field. the amount of horses running is lethal, as the other poster said, the race would be the same even with ten less horses, but be immesurably safer


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## Sun (9 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			So because it didn't happen in the race in the title of this post, it doesn't matter?! 

It puts perspective on this post. It is sad that 2 horses died in the national, but we should be thinking about this young guy tonight. Totally overrides the National.
		
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No, I never said it didnt matter it was just not relevant to the conversation regarding the horses being killed, which was something I did have an opinion on. Of course I wish him well, and pray for his speedy recovery but it wasnt something I felt needed debating on a forum.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

CelticGal said:



http://newsthump.com/2011/04/08/gra...end-cruelty-by-destroying-horses-before-race/

I think the above is abit exteme but makes a point... 

Sorry if the link does not work... Must try harder eh? lol

x
		
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Sicko


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## KarynK (9 April 2011)

jockmaster said:



			I would also like to say that the winning horse was extremely lucky not to have collapsed and died after the race.  When you saw it walking whilst being led, it looked like it was about to go down at one point.  Disgusting, the excuse about it being hot was just that, an excuse.  Yes it was hot but the other horses didn't seem to be so affected as the winner.  Maybe questions should be asked around his fitness level.  The horse giving it all he could does not wash with me either.
		
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Have you ever looked at horses competing in hot countries?, or perhaps what went on at the Atlanta Olympics and the extensive British research project that preceded it.  Ever seen a high end endurance ride, or how about A 200 k race in the Desert over 2 days?? a flat race in mid summer or humans running a marathon in summer?  Aggressive cooling is absolutely the thing that has to be done to combat hard work in hot conditions, and clearly organisers had thought of this in advance or there would not have been enough buckets of water to hand on the course to cool all the horses regardless of if they finished the race with or without a rider.  

Also it was very clear that all the horses had been given the OK to cool the horses trackside and proceed directly to the stables rather than the enclosures in advance.  The winner was tired of course but looked much improved for the immediate cooling and since they didn't film much else than him there was not really a suitable comparison.  Most if not all of the jockeys dismounted on the course so their horses could be cooled and I have seen much more exhausted horses when any distance race is run in soft going.  Yes a faster pace in heat takes it out of them and lactic acid build up will make them wobbly as soon as they stop,  but with the cooling and walking they recover very quickly, heavy ground really wears them out.

These horses are very well prepared athletes it has absolutely nothing to do with fitness,  it was a distance race in much hotter than usual conditions run on good ground at a fast pace.


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## mulledwhine (9 April 2011)

paddi22 said:



			but don't you  think if two eventing horses died on the same course and a jockey is in critical condition that some adjustments would be made to how that event was run in future?

you talk about lowering the jumps,  but not about reducing the running field. the amount of horses running is lethal, as the other poster said, the race would be the same even with ten less horses, but be immesurably safer
		
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The race was cut short today, nothing else to add, tooo cross


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## lhotse (9 April 2011)

Sun
It was you who brought him into the discussion with your ill timed comment. Others had just commented previously to wish him well, you did not.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

paddi22 said:



			but don't you  think if two eventing horses died on the same course and a jockey is in critical condition that some adjustments would be made to how that event was run in future?
		
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Have you seen Badminton change? Or Burghley? Or Bramham?


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## Sun (9 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			You could well be right - I think that's more common than reported. (One Man, Detroit City, etc) I didn't see it clearly enough, but I do also think he was dead on landing, or as soon as he broke his neck. 

Either way, it's tragic. Both horses had falls similar to the one that has hurt Peter Toole. Brave men and horses.
		
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how can you describe the horses as brave? they run through flight instinct & have no understanding of the dangers they face?


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## Sun (9 April 2011)

lhotse said:



			Sun
It was you who brought him into the discussion with your ill timed comment. Others had just commented previously to wish him well, you did not.
		
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I did not read the entire posts, I only read the first page then skipped to the end, seeing briefly a mention of a sick fellow, then I considered my response to the horse deaths. I apolgise to you personally if you felt I was heavy handed in my response, that was not my intention, I just did not see how his fall was connected to the horse deaths ok?


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

Sun said:



			how can you describe the horses as brave? they run through flight instinct & have no understanding of the dangers they face?
		
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You're basing your opinion on what experience?

I've worked with racehorses and eventers at a high level. Some are brave and relish their job, some don't and find new jobs. Nothing to do with flight. If they didn't want to do it, and flight was their preferred option, they'd bugger off in the other direction. 

Sheesh - muppet city tonight...........


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## narkymare (9 April 2011)

tbh im on the fence wiht this debate - yes i hate that 2 horses have died, seeing the fallen jockeys beign trampled i wonder hwo they survived. I felt so sorry for the winnng horse - teh state of him when he was led in.

But I myself knowingly risk my own and my horses health even life jus thacking out - and no im not exagerating, i have to do some roadwork to get anywhere and there are some bloody idiots out there. 
I cannot guarantee unfortuantely my horse and i will will return happy, safe and well after each hack - i just pray to god we do and do everything i can to lessent the risk - im sure the trainers and grooms  love these horses and work very hard to do the same re trainign etc
It is sad xxx


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## Leaf (9 April 2011)

KarynK said:



			Have you ever looked at horses competing in hot countries?, or perhaps what went on at the Atlanta Olympics and the extensive British research project that preceded it.  Ever seen a high end endurance ride, or how about A 200 k race in the Desert over 2 days?? a flat race in mid summer or humans running a marathon in summer?  Aggressive cooling is absolutely the thing that has to be done to combat hard work in hot conditions, and clearly organisers had thought of this in advance or there would not have been enough buckets of water to hand on the course to cool all the horses regardless of if they finished the race with or without a rider.  

Also it was very clear that all the horses had been given the OK to cool the horses trackside and proceed directly to the stables rather than the enclosures in advance.  The winner was tired of course but looked much improved for the immediate cooling and since they didn't film much else than him there was not really a suitable comparison.  Most if not all of the jockeys dismounted on the course so their horses could be cooled and I have seen much more exhausted horses when any distance race is run in soft going.  Yes a faster pace in heat takes it out of them and lactic acid build up will make them wobbly as soon as they stop,  but with the cooling and walking they recover very quickly, heavy ground really wears them out.

These horses are very well prepared athletes it has absolutely nothing to do with fitness,  it was a distance race in much hotter than usual conditions run on good ground at a fast pace.
		
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that wasn't me.... I was quoting someone else....  I am a racing girl married to a jump jockey who has been round aintree more than once... an no I have never looked at a National winner and thought wow that was light a bit of work!!


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## narkymare (9 April 2011)

Also - i cant say my horse "loves" hacking - he can get quite stressed and would certainly be much happier left in his field


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## CelticGal (9 April 2011)

Aintree spokesperson Charlie Hopkins told us, We looked at the statistics, and in light of the number of equine deaths that have occured in the race over the years, it seemed fairer to destroy the horses before the race rather than run them to exhaustion first.

After all, the horses are our primary consideration.  Well, after the gate receipts, sponsorship, television rights and gambling revenues.

The 2nd paragraph hit home to me.....  I understand that this is a "spoof" document but there are some hidden truths contained therein.   

Again this post is not related or retaliating to anybody else, democracy rules!


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## Luci07 (9 April 2011)

I am not a fan of the GN because a lot of the  enjoyment (for me) is taken away by the fact that I do expect horses to go down/injured./die in this race. If you look at the normal statistics of the whole meeting, then "normally" it is 6 -8 horses who die during the meeting. I would be interested to see how these compare with other NH races?. I am by no means anti racing, prefer jump to flat racing and do enjoy it .

 I don't agree that you can keep trying to compare chasing at this level to eventing. Eventing has had its (very well publicised) awful accidents and been/is trying to do something to make the sport safer. Can I also remind posters that for a horse to actually get to run around Badminton, it does have to have a proven record to be eligible. i.e I couldn't decide to run a novice horse around it. I know a  lot has been done to try to make the GN safer without taking away the thrill but I would also go with the restriction of the field numbers. Any bright ideas about some sort of basic qualifications as well? 

I am ashamed that I can't remember the name but the memory has stayed. Some 15 years or so, there was a stunning gray who was favourite to win, full page spread in the H&H the preceding week -  I watched him being knocked into by another horse having just taken off over a fence and as a result land on his side with a broken neck.


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## Sun (9 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			You're basing your opinion on what experience?

I've worked with racehorses and eventers at a high level. Some are brave and relish their job, some don't and find new jobs. Nothing to do with flight. If they didn't want to do it, and flight was their preferred option, they'd bugger off in the other direction. 

Sheesh - muppet city tonight...........
		
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there's a sign right there that it is not me that is being a muppet tonight.

I  know the difference of an animal with a big heart & and an animal who is running off instinct.


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## Sun (9 April 2011)

alligator40 said:



			muppet city is far too good for the idiots who post on here ATM caledonia
		
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if at first you dont succeed, resort to insulting people, LOL u only let yourself down honey x


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## joeathh (9 April 2011)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-2011-Ballabriggs-wins-day-drama-Aintree.html

As much as I enjoy racing, this is too much... pictures on this link are awful.  Who is the jockey being crushed by West End Rocker?


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## dressedkez (9 April 2011)

Sun said:



			how can you describe the horses as brave? they run through flight instinct & have no understanding of the dangers they face?
		
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Some do - like all disciplines there are the thinkers, and there are the death or glory animals. I have race horses, and one is running tomorrow - I love it and hate in about equal amounts.....But two of my three horses only want to race - I think that the third does, but I don't know him as well yet. The first is the thinker, he brings himself into training every year - and loathed his year off due to injury - he is the thinker - and looks after himself. The second runs with enthusiam, but no brain, or sadly ability - but loves it so much and the third we shall see. But they all love their job and have no wish to stand in a field or be a happy hacker.
I love them all, and really do not want any harm to come to them, but I have to be pragmatic. All I can do is try and get them to the races fit and educated to run to the best of their ability, hopefully safely. 
However, my thoughts are with the young man who is critically ill in hospital tonight - that is far more important - and as my own flesh and blood rides my horses,  and others his choice, but also the career he has chosen. It is very hard as his mother to be part of that, my heart goes out to the parents and loved ones of that boy, and I do hope he makes a full recovery. To the Mullins family, and the connections of the Nicholls horse, I am very sad - but as Ruby said in his autobiography, it is out the back door - i.e. not people. Those lovely two horses died, I suspect, doing a job they loved, and whilst the empty stables will be difficult to adjust to - they went a few years ahead of their time, as opposed to decades.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

Luci07 said:



			I am not a fan of the GN because a lot of the  enjoyment (for me) is taken away by the fact that I do expect horses to go down/injured./die in this race. If you look at the normal statistics of the whole meeting, then "normally" it is 6 -8 horses who die during the meeting. I would be interested to see how these compare with other NH races?. I am by no means anti racing, prefer jump to flat racing and do enjoy it .

 I don't agree that you can keep trying to compare chasing at this level to eventing. Eventing has had its (very well publicised) awful accidents and been/is trying to do something to make the sport safer. Can I also remind posters that for a horse to actually get to run around Badminton, it does have to have a proven record to be eligible. i.e I couldn't decide to run a novice horse around it. I know a  lot has been done to try to make the GN safer without taking away the thrill but I would also go with the restriction of the field numbers. Any bright ideas about some sort of basic qualifications as well? 

I am ashamed that I can't remember the name but the memory has stayed. Some 15 years or so, there was a stunning gray who was favourite to win, full page spread in the H&H the preceding week -  I watched him being knocked into by another horse having just taken off over a fence and as a result land on his side with a broken neck.
		
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Prove those statistics - you are SO wrong........... 

Horses also have to be eligible for the National. Luckily, before you had a wee plan of bright ideas, they were currently in place.

It is so sad when horses die, but harking back to before changes were made, and applying that set of criteria to the race as it is today is disingenuous at best.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

joeathh said:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-2011-Ballabriggs-wins-day-drama-Aintree.html

As much as I enjoy racing, this is too much... pictures on this link are awful.  Who is the jockey being crushed by West End Rocker?
		
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Barry Geraghty


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## Baggybreeches (9 April 2011)

applecart14 said:



			And horses run because they are herd animals and will therefore not be left behind.  So they all run to keep up with each other like they would in the wild, safety in numbers, etc.
		
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Not slagging you off for your opinions, but I have a horse who for all he loves to race, won't go if he doesn't want to, whether 12 others horses have galloped away without him or not!
And last year King John's Castle wouldn't start, he is now retired in Ireland.


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## badattitude (9 April 2011)

Also you are wrong. The horse you refer to was called Dark Ivy a grey who was favourite I think that year and he was killed at Beechers apparently because he over jumped and landed too steep on the then sloping backwards landing side and effectively landed on his neck from a full vertical position. that was the famous picture. It is also why the landing side was leveled off so please stop bleating about the lack of improvements on the course compared to event courses. I keep asking this but why is Daisy Dick not being given the same hard time for running her 18 year old at a one day event? She is no more cruel and heartless than the Mullins family who all adored Dooneys Gate. The double standard and hypocrasy of these threads is astonishing.


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## Sun (9 April 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			Not slagging you off for your opinions, but I have a horse who for all he loves to race, won't go if he doesn't want to, whether 12 others horses have galloped away without him or not!
And last year King John's Castle wouldn't start, he is now retired in Ireland.
		
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totally agree, there is always some who just hang back and dont care enough to join in. I own a dozen horses, often some of the younger ones start a bit of a stampede (just to keep me on my toes LOL!) anyway they will always be those that will join in the hooly at the drop of a pin and those that are happy to stand back and gaze at the display.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

Sun said:



			there's a sign right there that it is not me that is being a muppet tonight.

I  know the difference of an animal with a big heart & and an animal who is running off instinct.
		
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Not from the bull you've posted on here, you don't. You have no idea about how much horses that do their jobs love their jobs. Or maybe you are too ignorant to understand them, or read them properly?


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## MurphysMinder (9 April 2011)

Re the buckets of water being thrown on the horses, I have been to many point to points and races where this has been done .  Only a couple of weeks ago was at a pt to pt, again on an unseasonably warm day and a horse finished okay and then started staggering as it walked up to the unsaddling enclosure.  It looked very scary but everyone acted very quickly, and within minutes, and after having several gallons of water thrown over him, the horse was absolutely fine and walked happily back to the stables.  It initially looked far worse than Ballabriggs.


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## meandmyself (9 April 2011)

Okay, I went and found the qualification requirments for the National. Now, I'm not a racing person, so none of it makes much sense to me. Can someone translate?




			For six-year-olds old and upwards which are allotted a rating of 110 or more by the BHA Head of Handicapping following a review of the horses entered and after taking account of races run up to and including February 13, 2011. Horses which are not qualified for a rating in Great Britain or Ireland at February 1, 2011, may also be entered. Such horses may be eligible for a weight providing the Handicapper is satisfied that the horse's racecourse performances to February 13, 2011, would merit a minimum rating of 110. To qualify horses must have run at least three times in Steeple Chases run under the Rules of Racing of the same Recognised Turf Authority up to and including February 13, 2011. At the Handicapper's discretion such horses may be allocated a rating. The decision of the BHA Head of Handicapping shall be final. No penalties after publication of the weights. Highest weight 11st 10lb. Maximum field size of 40.
		
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Looking at those pictures and seeing the race, I still believe that forty horses is simply too many for the course. I believe that the race could be made safer just by reducing the number of starters. 25-30 wouldn't be any less exciting, and would give them all a bit more room in front of the fences.


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## Sun (9 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			Not from the bull you've posted on here, you don't. You have no idea about how much horses that do their jobs love their jobs. Or maybe you are too ignorant to understand them, or read them properly?
		
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what ever you wish, if you cant answer without resorting to insulting me then I am really not interested in your opinions x


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## lannerch (9 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			Have you seen Badminton change? Or Burghley? Or Bramham?
		
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most definatly YES


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## lassiesuca (9 April 2011)

I don't follow racing, eventing, show jumping at all. We had a bit of a conflict in my house hold last night because everyone wanted to place a bet on the Grand National, bar me. My parents got all cross at me, but I asked them to respect that I didn't want to put money on something which I personally don't support, agree with or find enjoyable to watch. 

Today I was out riding my horse, and he nearly got killed. He reared up because he was unsettled by something, I got off him to check he was okay (his saddle had slipped back), and he bolted home, through the woods and on the road. I've never run so fast in my life, so that I didn't lose sight of him. I was crying my eyes out. Even out hacking, there is the potential of a fatality. 

Everyone in life dies; however, would you send your children to a play area where kids have been killed on it before? What does it matter though? I mean, everyone dies...silly me  I think that, with respect to those who enjoy racing, that not all of us get enjoyment out of it. Okay so 'only 2 horses' died, but still, two horses which could of been spared a life? Perhaps? I think that banning these races is all well and good, and I'd support a ban, however, in all honesty, it's not so straight forward, so many horses would go to slaughter, so you'd have to stop breeding racers in the industry etc. It's easier said than done, unfortunately. 


I think we should all respect that it isn't for everyone, as it isn't for me, and I don't think we could stop it. 

Just for the record though, regarding eventing, when Spring Along died, I was quite upset, and this is a reason why I don't follow eventing, because I think it's a bit too much for me to handle, I'm a softie. However, I don't hate people who watch it, some of my best friends love eventing, but each to their own etc


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## glenruby (9 April 2011)

Paddi (and others who have brought this up) - racing and the GN in particular HAS changed in an effort to make it safer. Just like eventing. And similarly neither sport has greatly improved its record since they introduced their changes.

The Gn used to have far more than 40runners. Also the race Peter was injured in  had just 7 runners.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

Sun said:



			what ever you wish, if you cant answer without resorting to insulting me then I am really not interested in your opinions x
		
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Wasn't insulting you, just dismissing the nonsense you write.


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## yeeharider (9 April 2011)

The 2nd bit I disliked was from that p**tt Richard Pitman ( only my opinion! ) when he was interviewing in the jockeys room after. He was talking to AP and then said something like the only downside to the race was when Robbie McNamaras saddle slipped and as a result he came off. I don't know the exact words. How insensitive a comment when 2 horses had died, I know some things get said without thinking, especially with the pressure of live TV I guess, but that really takes the biscuit.[/QUOTE]

I love NH racing but like the majority hate but expect some fallers,but found his comments very insensitive and innappropriate RIP both horses and condolenses to all connected with them


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## meandmyself (9 April 2011)

Racing is never going to be banned. It makes too much money for that to ever happen, and quite frankly, it would be an over-reaction. I do think that safety could be improved and that it should be.


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## zefragile (9 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			Have you seen Badminton change? Or Burghley? Or Bramham?
		
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Frangible pins, pro logs, new flags? I like the Grand National, would probably like it more if there were less horses in it.


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## glenruby (9 April 2011)

I think those DM photos show what happened Dooneys Gate, he had a horrific fall himself, landed/got up facing the wrong way and Or Noir de Somoza fell on top of him.


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## Sun (9 April 2011)

zefragile said:



			Frangible pins, pro logs, new flags? I like the Grand National, would probably like it more if there were less horses in it.
		
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thats the biggest change they need, I see headlines just now on news "2 Horses Die, Ballabriggs Wins"

Maybe we will see a change for the better after this (ie welfare of the animals)


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

zefragile said:



			Frangible pins, pro logs, new flags? I like the Grand National, would probably like it more if there were less horses in it.
		
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Fence changes, chutes for loose horses, rule changes to allow horses to by pass a fence?

The numbers may make a difference, but they haven't previously. 

I've been at all three of the events mentioned when two or more horses died. Where's that reported though? 

Get it in perspective.


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## lhotse (9 April 2011)

The flag incident was a complete freak accident, I know, I was there. Frangible pins have certainly stopped many falls from becoming fatal, but riders and horses are still being killed in rotational falls. I would certainly agree that less runners would be a step forward in terms of safety, but the fences are as safe as they can be. Interestingly, the largest fence on the course, the Chair, is jumped well by almost all the field, so the height of these fences is not an issue in my opinion.


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## suzysparkle (9 April 2011)

The thing is in any sport there will always be the hardest challenge. Animal welfare people slate the Iditarod sled dog race as cruel....it's the same thing. I know for a fact that those dogs are not pets and ALL they want to do is run. A lot of my dogs are wired like that. I suspect to make it to the Grand National those Horses are the same. 

I watched the race today and one of those that died I remember saying to my husband as soon as it fell 'that Horse is dead, you can see it's neck must be broken' and sure enough, on the next lap the screens were up. I did feel a bit sick but then ultimately no-one could ever force a Horse to run and jump. You do see racehorses refuse to start after all. 

It's not right and it's not wrong. So long as the Horse has led a happy and well looked after life I don't see the problem. If people want to get up in arms go and put the energy towards campaigning for the likes of the Brooke, for equines in less developed countries who need water, shade, rest, food, vaccinated, wormed, tack that doesn't cause open sores and a bit of praise now and then. Something racehorses 'take for granted'.


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## zefragile (9 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			Fence changes, chutes for loose horses, rule changes to allow horses to by pass a fence?

The numbers may make a difference, but they haven't previously. 

I've been at all three of the events mentioned when two or more horses died. Where's that reported though? 

Get it in perspective.
		
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I know that the GN has seen changes, I was pointing out the changes in eventing.
"Get it in perspective", is that aimed at me?


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## glenruby (9 April 2011)

Yes was just going to say that about the chair. I think maybe they should return to the height they all were a few years ago but cut the numbers down to 30. It would still be a larger field than most (if not all) other races but considering that most years a good few horses are brought down rather than falling it may make a signifiant difference.


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## fburton (9 April 2011)

alligator40 said:



			muppet city is far too good for the idiots who post on here ATM caledonia
		
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Would Luca Cumani also come into the muppet category then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOo-HMpp0no

Specifically 6:10 to 8:19.


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## scrunchie (9 April 2011)

zefragile said:



			I like the Grand National, would probably like it more if there were less horses in it.
		
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Exactly. These are my thoughts too.

I don't think there are any real problems with the course. It's meant to be a tough ride. But any minor mistakes are magnified because of the amount of horses trying to get over the jump.

I don't think they should ban the Grand National. They just need to cut down on the amount of runners down to around 25-30 at least.

Incidently, I've been struggling to find a name for my new foal. I found one today. He is now called Dooney in honour of Dooney's Gate who had that terrible fall.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

zefragile said:



			I know that the GN has seen changes, I was pointing out the changes in eventing.
"Get it in perspective", is that aimed at me? 

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Nope, sorry - I rejigged my post for the shining one.......


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## Baggybreeches (9 April 2011)

The horses that are qualified are essentially any modestly decent chaser, with an official rating of 110 (as an example Kauto, Denman etc are 165-175) but the lower the rating the less likely the horse is to make the cut (ballot). With the GN being a handicap the lower a horses rating the less weight it carries, which is effectively making it easier for the lesser horses. 
In real terms todays race was actually a pretty decent quality field with most horses being rated 140 and above (that I noticed, sorry if I am wrong but I was trying to read the racecard and work).
With reference to the ground (I do know the ground staff) after Red Marauders win in 2001? The racecourse invested in lots of drainage which effectively means that however much it rains and how ever much it gets watered the ground will always be good/soft, which results in much quicker times, and it is the pace that causes problems, lots of horses are perfectly capable of jumping round there in their own time, but if you have a horse making a quick time, it forces the slower horses into mistakes.
With respect to the argument about the amount of runners, if you went to a local p2p, you would maybe get 16 or 18 maidens in one race, all charging towards an 8m wide chase fence, in the GN you have 40 experienced horses coming at fences that are 18m wide, I know which I would feel safer doing.........


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## Sun (9 April 2011)

glenruby said:



			Yes was just going to say that about the chair. I think maybe they should return to the height they all were a few years ago but cut the numbers down to 30. It would still be a larger field than most (if not all) other races but considering that most years a good few horses are brought down rather than falling it may make a signifiant difference.
		
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interesting thought, with speed such a huge contribution to these fatal falls, surely reducing the field and trying to discourage such fast starts as we saw today?


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## glenruby (9 April 2011)

Baggybreeeches - I agree with the point re PTPs. IMO they are infinitely more dangerous. And you have the addd danger of inexperienced horses and often inexperienced jockeys too - certainly inexperienced when compared with the pros.


Sun - Bigger fences will slow them down a bit. I believe there was a race/course record time set last year or was it the one before? Most likely related to changes in fence heights and drainage in recent years most likely.


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## Sun (9 April 2011)

glenruby said:



			Baggybreeeches - I agree with the point re PTPs. IMO they are infinitely more dangerous. And you have the addd danger of inexperienced horses and often inexperienced jockeys too - certainly inexperienced when compared with the pros.


Sun - Bigger fences will slow them down a bit. I believe there was a race/course record time set last year or was it the one before? Most likely related to changes in fence heights and drainage in recent years most likely.
		
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it is sad to think that probably the changes they have made to date have quickened the race and made it even more dangerous, at one time the huge jumps were the be all and end all of this race.


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## glenruby (9 April 2011)

They made changes that in theory should make the race safer but yes it seems that it may have had the opposite effect.


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## The Virgin Dubble (9 April 2011)

Such a shame this great race has been marred by the tragic deaths of Ornais and Dooleys Gate.

I love NH racing - there is no other sport quite like it, but it doesn't mean that I don't feel extreme sadness when horses die in a race. 

But what do we suggest? Ban racing? Ban eventing? 

In an ideal world, all the horses would come home safe and well, and they often do, but sadly, I had a feeling that there would be fatalities today due to the ground.

Interestingly, in 2001 there was public outrage that the GN was run on appalling ground - a complete mud bath which saw only four horses finish - two of them had fallen and been remounted. But there were no fatalities, so perhaps the ground conditions are a major issue....

I don't have the answers, and I don't begrudge anybody their opinion, but I do feel some perspective is needed.
Riding is a risk sport - any riding. And fatal accidents occur regularly - even out hacking. Nobody likes it, but unless we wrap horses up in cotton wool and never let them see daylight, they will continue to happen.

My thoughts are with the stable staff of Ornais and Dooleys Gate who will wake up to empty stables in the morning, and papers full of sensationalised reporting, and graphic images of their beloved charges meeting their ends.


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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

Indeed Dubs, well put.


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## Chestnuttymare (9 April 2011)

Just finished reading all the posts, shook my head at some, gasped at some, laughed at others, then applauded Dubs right at the end. so Well articulated! We really need a 'like' button here dontcha think


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## fburton (9 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			Nothing to do with flight. If they didn't want to do it, and flight was their preferred option, they'd bugger off in the other direction.
		
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I disagree - I think racing taps directly into horses' flight instinct. See my previous post for a clip that shows a top trainer expressing exactly this view.


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## yeeharider (9 April 2011)

Nobody likes it, but unless we wrap horses up in cotton wool and never let them see daylight, they will continue to happen.
Mine was wrapped in cotton wool in foal to Merit (beat the mighty Istabraque)
broke her leg in the paddock, where do you go ,cant ban turning them out


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## paddi22 (9 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			Have you seen Badminton change? Or Burghley? Or Bramham?
		
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http://www.britisheventing.com/news.asp?section=000100010043&itemid=1521


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## B_2_B (9 April 2011)




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## Caledonia (9 April 2011)

fburton said:



			I disagree - I think racing taps directly into horses' flight instinct. See my previous post for a clip that shows a top trainer expressing exactly this view.
		
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Oh dear..... I got bored after a load of fat people on fat horses....... no relevance to my mind.........


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## B_2_B (9 April 2011)

I should add, that's at some of the replys to this thread, not the GN or anything that happened today, before I get jumped on, wrapped in cotton wool and a carrot stuck to my nose


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## Chestnuttymare (9 April 2011)

fburton said:



			I disagree - I think racing taps directly into horses' flight instinct. See my previous post for a clip that shows a top trainer expressing exactly this view.
		
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I thought you were calling him a muppet!!


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## fburton (9 April 2011)

Caledonia said:





Oh dear..... I got bored after a load of fat people on fat horses....... no relevance to my mind.........
		
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I think it's highly relevant. Skip to 6:10 by dragging the slider over.


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## Kadastorm (9 April 2011)

well, reading these replies have made me LOL. 

Shame i didnt have any pop corn.

It amazes me how people can be so rude and insulting to other people. 
(but i admit, the come-backs have been funny to read)

It also amazes me how many threads about the Grand National have popped up and it all ends up with the same argument. 

yes.

 RIP horses and wishing the jockeys a speedy recovery.


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## Chestnuttymare (10 April 2011)

fburton said:



			I think it's highly relevant. Skip to 6:10 by dragging the slider over.
		
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so you weren't insinuating that he was a muppet then, you actually believe they are running away. So what about the horse yesterday and the day before that let the rest of the field go at the start and refused to run, had that one been taking brave pills?


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## CelticGal (10 April 2011)

HHmmmmmm - It's just come to my attention that 3 TBs were fatally injured on Friday at Aintree, during one race or another? Might have been three in the same race?  (I don't know) - 5 horses in 2 days, that the main thing really (to me) .....   Gets better and better! Or not.. Night all x


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## Charem (10 April 2011)

I love watching the GN but I too feel that there are too many runners in it. 

With regards to the fences, the only one I don't really like is Beechers. With such a large drop on landing I think the liklyhood of horses falling is massively increased. The horses have to jump out otherwise they're going to peck on landing. Jumping out can't be all that easy if your right up someone elses tail. As someone said before, The Chair seemed to be one of the best jumped out of all the fences. Is it just the size of the fence that makes horses/jockeys respect it or is it the slopping profile that encourages a good jump?

RIP Dooneys Gate and Ornais, and I shall certainly be thinking of the jockey who had the nasty fall earlier.


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## fburton (10 April 2011)

chestnuttymare said:



			so you weren't insinuating that he was a muppet then, you actually believe they are running away.
		
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Luca Cumani said he believes horses race because of their flight instinct. One of the posters was called a muppet apparently for expressing this view. I was simply asking if that meant Alligator40 thought Cumani was also a muppet for holding the same view.


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## Dobiegirl (10 April 2011)

Celticgal no wonder you signed off so quick because  there was no fatalities at Aintree on Friday, checkthe Racing Post site , where are you getting your information from?


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## Caledonia (10 April 2011)

fburton said:



			Luca Cumani said he believes horses race because of their flight instinct. One of the posters was called a muppet apparently for expressing this view. I was simply asking if that meant Alligator40 thought Cumani was also a muppet for holding the same view.
		
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Oh dear - LC trains flat horses .......


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## fburton (10 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			Oh dear - LC trains flat horses .......
		
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So the reason for horses running depends on whether they're flat racers or NH? Interesting!

Do you _really_ believe the flight instinct is irrelevant? (And do you think LC is a muppet??)


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## Kiribati_uk (10 April 2011)

I think its cruel to kill rats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My thoughts are with Peter Toole.


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## tess1 (10 April 2011)

I think what happened today in the National is very, very sad.  I was brought up by a father who loved racing and it was his proud boast that he'd taken me to every racecourse in the country by the age of fourteen!  I was happy to take my dad to see the National as a treat when he was seventy .... now many years ago.  From the age of fourteen I rode flapping ponies (racing ponies - flat, not jumping).  I always thought they enjoyed it as much as I did.

As I've got older I've questioned more about what we do with horses.  My personal feeling, and I appreciate that other people feel differently, is that two dead horses, a horse that needed oxygen and couldn't make it to the winner's enclosure, other horse(s?) who have died at the same meeting, a jockey in critical condition, and (according to the guardian) a five day ban on the rider of the winner of the national for excessive whip use is a big price to pay for a few days of 'sport'.  The statistics suggest that the number of horses who die on this particular course is very high.  I think it is appalling that these dead/dying horses were described as 'obstacles' and agree with the poster who said that 'receiving on-going veterinary treatment' might have been more sensitive and a lot closer to the truth. 

I think the link posted by fburton is interesting in its take on racing.  Luca Cumani does indeed say that racing harnesses the flight instinct of the horse.  As he points out, why would a horse push himself through the pain barrier?  He says that the jockey is 'agitating' the horse, and the horse that runs the fastest survives - or not, in the case of these horses that have died.  In the herd, one gets frightened and runs, and then everyone else runs.  As commented in the clip, racing has harnessed fear and turned it into a multi million pound industry.  I think there is a lot of truth in this view - certainly I see no reason why LC would say these things to camera unless he believed them to be true - and I'm sure he knows a hell of a lot about horses!!

It's obvious that these kinds of events won't be banned.  It's also obvious that the people who know and care for these horses will be deeply upset at their loss.  The guy who owned the flappers I rode cried like a kid when his favourite pony died in an unforseeable and tragic accident.  I think that if anything can be done to make the sport safer in any way, than that can only be a good thing.  No one wants their horse to die in a race.  No one wants to have ridden a horse to his death.  I am disappointed to read some posts on this forum that seem to belittle the loss of these horses - there is always a lesson to be learned from these events ... I don't think that expressing the view that it is not really such a big deal is very constructive.

apologies if this has already been posted

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sands--end-dog-food-French-dinner-plates.html

sensationalist reporting definitely I think, given the timing, but nevertheless there is truth in here somewhere and sadly gives more fuel to the fire that horses are viewed as a commodity by the racing 'industry', to be chewed up and spat out when superfluous to requirements.

The DM has also printed some pictures which personally I find pretty horrific.  In fact, some of them are so graphic that I am surprised they have been printed, given the fact that they show a jockey being apparently crushed as well as the fate of a now dead horse in pretty clear detail.  However, I think it is important that these pictures are shown because only when people see what really goes on in these situations can they make an informed judgement as to whether it is acceptable or not.

RIP brave horses that lost their lives today.  I hope no other horse (or human) has suffered serious injuries as a result of today's events.


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## tallyho! (10 April 2011)

tess1 said:



			I think what happened today in the National is very, very sad.  I was brought up by a father who loved racing and it was his proud boast that he'd taken me to every racecourse in the country by the age of fourteen!  I was happy to take my dad to see the National as a treat when he was seventy .... now many years ago.  From the age of fourteen I rode flapping ponies (racing ponies - flat, not jumping).  I always thought they enjoyed it as much as I did.

As I've got older I've questioned more about what we do with horses.  My personal feeling, and I appreciate that other people feel differently, is that two dead horses, a horse that needed oxygen and couldn't make it to the winner's enclosure, other horse(s?) who have died at the same meeting, a jockey in critical condition, and (according to the guardian) a five day ban on the rider of the winner of the national for excessive whip use is a big price to pay for a few days of 'sport'.  The statistics suggest that the number of horses who die on this particular course is very high.  I think it is appalling that these dead/dying horses were described as 'obstacles' and agree with the poster who said that 'receiving on-going veterinary treatment' might have been more sensitive and a lot closer to the truth. 

I think the link posted by fburton is interesting in its take on racing.  Luca Cumani does indeed say that racing harnesses the flight instinct of the horse.  As he points out, why would a horse push himself through the pain barrier?  He says that the jockey is 'agitating' the horse, and the horse that runs the fastest survives - or not, in the case of these horses that have died.  In the herd, one gets frightened and runs, and then everyone else runs.  As commented in the clip, racing has harnessed fear and turned it into a multi million pound industry.  I think there is a lot of truth in this view - certainly I see no reason why LC would say these things to camera unless he believed them to be true - and I'm sure he knows a hell of a lot about horses!!

It's obvious that these kinds of events won't be banned.  It's also obvious that the people who know and care for these horses will be deeply upset at their loss.  The guy who owned the flappers I rode cried like a kid when his favourite pony died in an unforseeable and tragic accident.  I think that if anything can be done to make the sport safer in any way, than that can only be a good thing.  No one wants their horse to die in a race.  No one wants to have ridden a horse to his death.  I am disappointed to read some posts on this forum that seem to belittle the loss of these horses - there is always a lesson to be learned from these events ... I don't think that expressing the view that it is not really such a big deal is very constructive.

apologies if this has already been posted

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sands--end-dog-food-French-dinner-plates.html

sensationalist reporting definitely I think, given the timing, but nevertheless there is truth in here somewhere and sadly gives more fuel to the fire that horses are viewed as a commodity by the racing 'industry', to be chewed up and spat out when superfluous to requirements.

The DM has also printed some pictures which personally I find pretty horrific.  In fact, some of them are so graphic that I am surprised they have been printed, given the fact that they show a jockey being apparently crushed as well as the fate of a now dead horse in pretty clear detail.  However, I think it is important that these pictures are shown because only when people see what really goes on in these situations can they make an informed judgement as to whether it is acceptable or not.

RIP brave horses that lost their lives today.  I hope no other horse (or human) has suffered serious injuries as a result of today's events.
		
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Just to say... I'm in her camp ^^^^^.


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## Caledonia (10 April 2011)

paddi22 said:



http://www.britisheventing.com/news.asp?section=000100010043&itemid=1521

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That says nothing about the figures for horse injuries, or falls for them.

Whatever they do, there are still equine fatalities.


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## TGM (10 April 2011)

tess1 said:



			I think that if anything can be done to make the sport safer in any way, than that can only be a good thing.  No one wants their horse to die in a race.  No one wants to have ridden a horse to his death.  I am disappointed to read some posts on this forum that seem to belittle the loss of these horses - there is always a lesson to be learned from these events ... I don't think that expressing the view that it is not really such a big deal is very constructive.
		
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Agree with this.  I don't want to see the National banned, but I don't think that these deaths should be shrugged off as part and parcel of racing either.  We need to find out exactly what were the factors that resulted in this horses falling and dying and use that knowledge to try and improve the race in future.


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## minesadouble (10 April 2011)

The main factor that I think led to the fatalities was the fast ground. I hate to watch this race run on fast ground. Apparently - I could be wrong mind - I have heard the powers that be did not water. If so then I think it wrong - that track could definitely have done with a bit of water in my opinion. Hasn't the Grand National moved forward a week? Maybe that is a factor in the state of the ground too. 

Apart from the fatalities there were a lot of horses finishing very dehydrated which was another way the waeather influences the race. However no one likes to see horses slogging through bottomless ground and finishing (or not finishing) exhausted, as they did in Red Mrauders year.

Also I would prefer to see the field capped at 30. I don't think it should be banned or the fences made easier AGAIN, it is a unique spectacle and part of our racing heritage but I firmly believe that it is not a race that should be run on fast ground.

Apologies if I am repeating others but no time to read 25 pages.


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## tallyho! (10 April 2011)

minesadouble said:



			The main factor that I think led to the fatalities was the fast ground. I hate to watch this race run on fast ground. Apparently - I could be wrong mind - I have heard the powers that be did not water. If so then I think it wrong - that track could definitely have done with a bit of water in my opinion. Hasn't the Grand National moved forward a week? Maybe that is a factor in the state of the ground too. 

Apart from the fatalities there were a lot of horses finishing very dehydrated which was another way the waeather influences the race. However no one likes to see horses slogging through bottomless ground and finishing (or not finishing) exhausted, as they did in Red Mrauders year.

Also I would prefer to see the field capped at 30. I don't think it should be banned or the fences made easier AGAIN, it is a unique spectacle and part of our racing heritage but I firmly believe that it is not a race that should be run on fast ground.

Apologies if I am repeating others but no time to read 25 pages.
		
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Yes 25 pages and many do echo your sentiments of reducing numbers... which can only be a good thing!!!!

It's the easiest most logical solution.

Why is it so long anyway? Why twice around? 

I know we don't throw people in with the lions anymore, but why do we run horses to death? Barbarism disguised as civilisation.


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## Natch (10 April 2011)

I just find it sad that anyone finds it normal for any equestrian event to start with 40, finish with 19 and kill 2, all in a few minutes.

That's just over 50% of horses not finishing, and 5% dying. There would be uproar if we had those types of statistics in any other equestrian sport, so its not surprising this is highly controversial.


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## lannerch (10 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			That says nothing about the figures for horse injuries, or falls for them.

Whatever they do, there are still equine fatalities.
		
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Off course there are as there are in any equine sport however they try and reduce the risk, does nh do a full report on every horse fall? And if less than 50% of entrys failed to complete there would indeed be uproar!

However agree with tgm, I love the national would hate it to be no more, but I would also hate to see all 3 of these deaths (total number during aintree ) just shrugged off.


agree with the comments the speed was a major contirbutory factor and the ground, yesterday I had my first cc run, am not so far from aintree in the grand scheme of things and the ground was rock hard!


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## fburton (10 April 2011)

TGM said:



			Agree with this.  I don't want to see the National banned, but I don't think that these deaths should be shrugged off as part and parcel of racing either.  We need to find out exactly what were the factors that resulted in this horses falling and dying and use that knowledge to try and improve the race in future.
		
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My sentiment in a nutshell.


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## Spudlet (10 April 2011)

TGM said:



			Agree with this.  I don't want to see the National banned, but I don't think that these deaths should be shrugged off as part and parcel of racing either.  We need to find out exactly what were the factors that resulted in this horses falling and dying and use that knowledge to try and improve the race in future.
		
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Agreed. Horses do die doing horsesports, sadly, but these deaths should surely be used to improve the sport and make it that bit safer for the next horses to compete? For example, eventing now uses different jump flags in the x-country phase after a horrible accident at Badminton a few years ago (not trying to start a racing vs eventing war, but that was the first example of what I mean that came to mind).


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## tallyho! (10 April 2011)

Now that we all agree... what should we do to help change things in the future? Who do I write to?


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## fburton (10 April 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Now that we all agree... what should we do to help change things in the future? Who do I write to?
		
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Oh, I should think "public opinion", as misguided/misinformed/fluffy as it may be, will do more good than any letters that we could write. That's the paradox. If it weren't for public pressure (not pressure from "true horsepeople" who will always tend to favour the status quo), the Grand National would still be run exactly the same as it ever was.


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## Baggybreeches (10 April 2011)

minesadouble said:



			The main factor that I think led to the fatalities was the fast ground. I hate to watch this race run on fast ground. Apparently - I could be wrong mind - I have heard the powers that be did not water. If so then I think it wrong - that track could definitely have done with a bit of water in my opinion.
		
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I am sure they did water plenty beforehand, although once the meeting starts there is little point in watering, I have explained previously about the improvements in drainage at Aintree which means that however much water is spread the course will remain good/soft. The high temperature and prevailing wind would be enough to make the ground on the fast side of good between 8am and 2pm. I walked on the course on Thursday and the ground looked to be on the good side of soft after 2 races.

Also with reference to Luca Cumani's thoughts, I am not discounting them per se, but do remember that he is training 2 yr olds who live a very sterile existence, most NH horses get to see a bit of life alongside racing.


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## Caledonia (10 April 2011)

At Badminton last year 56 completed, 33 didn't. That's still a biggish percentage of the field, bearing in mind very few of them just pull up as they do in racing. But I'm not knocking eventing, it's just at top level not that different. 

They do look at all falls and deaths in racing. At Musselburgh if a horse has a catastrophic injury the part of the limb that went is cut from the carcass and taken to the Vet Hospital for analysis. (That I believe is how they caught JHJ out running a denerved horse)

If you look closely at the photos, Dooney's Gate is actually getting to his feet when the Pipe horse lands directly on his back. So really his sad death is more to do with the fluke of where he fell, and it being early in the course when the runners were still bunched up. 

Doesn't make it any more acceptable, but it wasn't the initial fall that did the damage. I don't know how you could factor that and make changes to prevent it 

According to ATR, Peter Toole is stable but critical. Thoughts with him.


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## lannerch (10 April 2011)

Sorry to be a bit pedantic http://www.badminton-horse.co.uk/results/2010_results/final_results.aspx I read it as 57 completed cross country 24 did not. Still a fairly high percentage but how many of those were horse falls. 

Agree all sports at particularly top level hold a risk however steps should be taken to minimise it. The jockeys though must also take some of the blame why oh why did they set of at such a ridiculous fast pace when they had such an ordeal ahead of them.


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## Caledonia (10 April 2011)

lannerch said:



			Sorry to be a bit pedantic http://www.badminton-horse.co.uk/results/2010_results/final_results.aspx I read it as 57 completed cross country 24 did not. Still a fairly high percentage but how many of those were horse falls. 

Agree all sports at particularly top level hold a risk however steps should be taken to minimise it. The jockeys though must also take some of the blame why oh why did they set of at such a ridiculous fast pace when they had such an ordeal ahead of them.
		
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Sorry, I went on final results - duh!  

As I said, I'm not knocking eventing, but it's a given that if the anti-racing people get their way, eventing will be next. Interestingly, a couple of racehorse trainers I know think eventing is far more cruel than racing because the fences are solid. 

I like both, and agree that it needs to be under continual review. That said, how would you have prevented yesterdays falls? No way could you have anticipated Ornais, and Dooney's Gate was sheer bad luck. 

I think the fast ground was an issue, but the horses naturally travel so much quicker on it, and it's far to dangerous to take a pull at these fences. I think the weather caught the groundstaff out.


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## The Virgin Dubble (10 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			I think the fast ground was an issue, but the horses naturally travel so much quicker on it, and it's far to dangerous to take a pull at these fences. I think the weather caught the groundstaff out.
		
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I agree wholeheartedly with this.

I would love to know if there are any statistics on ground conditions in relation to fatal falls.

I expected fatal falls at this meeting simply on the basis that the ground was going to be too fast....


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## tess1 (10 April 2011)

according to the daily mail:

33 tragedies at course in just 11 years By JO MACFARLANE
In all 33 horses have died during three-day Grand National meetings at Aintree since 2000 &#8211; and it is unusual for no horse to be killed as a result of the main race itself.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ggs-wins-day-drama-Aintree.html#ixzz1J7l7nMxX

That averages out at one horse a day ...

I know of no other equestrian sporting event in the UK where that level of fatality would be deemed acceptable.  If a jockey had been killed every day changes would have been made.  Less horses would be a start, then perhaps the poor Dooney's Gate would not have had another horse land on his back as he got up from his fall.


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## ldlp111 (10 April 2011)

It was actually two horses that hit Dooneys Gate, the first no 6 Or Noir De Somoza (hope that's spelt right) and then Westend Rocker also landed on him. Whether he broke his back from the fall which looked to of been pretty hard considering he ended up facing the wrong way or when either of the following horses hit him who knows.

RIP Dooneys Gate and Ornais 

Also wishing Peter Toole a speedy recovery from what was also a very hard fall.


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## Caledonia (10 April 2011)

tess1 said:



			according to the daily mail:

33 tragedies at course in just 11 years By JO MACFARLANE
In all 33 horses have died during three-day Grand National meetings at Aintree since 2000  and it is unusual for no horse to be killed as a result of the main race itself.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ggs-wins-day-drama-Aintree.html#ixzz1J7l7nMxX

That averages out at one horse a day ...

I know of no other equestrian sporting event in the UK where that level of fatality would be deemed acceptable.  If a jockey had been killed every day changes would have been made.  Less horses would be a start, then perhaps the poor Dooney's Gate would not have had another horse land on his back as he got up from his fall.
		
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Lets be clear, are you wanting to stop racing in general, or the National?


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## Caledonia (10 April 2011)

I've just listened to Andy Stewart being interviewed on ATR as the owner of Ornais. He is understandably gutted, but pragmatic. He is also horrified by the shabby journalism (it's not even worthy of that term, tbh) in today's papers. Rightly so, IMO. In fact, I'd go further than that - these papers are making masses of money by printing these photos, and sensationalising the very sad deaths of the two horses. Gutter press........

Two scenarios - which of the below are more sickening?

The car crash mentality of the press, whipping up extreme outrage at the expense of a desperately sad affair by manipulating statistics and blasting harrowing photos all over the paper, all in the name of making themselves money.   

 The connections of the horses who looked after them, cherished them, gave them a job to do that they relished and who are now quietly mourning the loss of their horses.


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## Serenity087 (10 April 2011)

Just out of curiosity...

As racing is the ONLY equestrian sport focused on money and winning and not for the love of horses (/sarcasm)

I presume the pot of £60,000 from Badminton goes to charity?  Because an eventer would never ever put a horse into competition, risk fatal rotational falls and maybe even use a whip to encourage them forward just for £60,000... would they?


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## lannerch (10 April 2011)

You would have to be doing very well to get rich eventing there are a lot easier and more sucessful ways to make money! 

I put my horse through all that for the love as do most eventers, and  my horse is part of the family. Even at the lower levels all you list can occur. Eventing costs more than most people could ever dream of winning remember we do not have the betting industry connection.

So no I do not believe any eventer would enter badmington just for the money!

But then I also believe with most top trainers you will find they are not in it purely for money either, the national horses are not entered just for the winning pot, it is a challange the ultimate, and certainly at least in the stables the horses are much loved.


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## ladyt25 (10 April 2011)

I certainly think the ground conditions play a big part in the number of serious accidents. I always prefer it when it's very wet and actually quite heavy ground for the National (or most races actually) the horses tend to be going slower for a start and the falls have a softer landing!

They certainly did water the course for Aintree. I heard at the beginning of the week they actually had heavy rain in the west and initially the ground was deemed to be soft. Towards the end of the week it had dried significantly and they were only saying on friday morning on daybreak (they were at Aintree and I think were with the clerk of the course) how much they had been watering. I think the going was probably pretty perfect as far as jumping a course is concerned but maybe so good that the horses were encouraged to go faster.

I still am on the fence about the GN - in and ideal world no horses would be injured or killed doing events we love doing on them but that isn't life is it.

I live near Bramham and go every year and I remember one year when more than one horse died as a result of a fall at a particular fence (a bounce going downhill I think - madness really). They removed the fence as a result and have never put a similar fence in. Generally now they are no fatalities (you can never 100% stop them though) but there are plenty of horse and rider falls.

It's funny how people think the course is too long at 4 miles though and say how shattered the horses are. However, people see happy to take their horse to XC competitions every year over maybe 2 or so miles and expect their non-event fit (ie generally just used for hacking and leisure) horses to complete the course at a decent canter/gallop. Many riders tend to carry a little excess weight too but they still expect tehir horse to get round. At least racehorses are specifically trained for the job - they are ultra fit (whatever people may say) and there is a limit to what weight they can carry.

If my horse can make it round a 2+ mile XC course after having done a dressage test and a SJing round I don't think an ultra fit horse doing a 4 mile chase is actually that extraordinary. Sure, maybe they could shorten it but then it wouldn't be the GN would it!

I think they have done so much to improve the course - lowered the drops etc - I think one of the next things they could try is to lessen the numbers allowed in it. It would be interesting to see if it did make a difference.


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## brighteyes (10 April 2011)

glenruby said:



			Caledonia - I still think Ornais may have been injured prior to jumping that fence - he lost his action on the approach. Guess it doesnt change things anyway though but perhaps a heart attack or similar is why he appeared to be lifeless on landing.
		
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This makes for heartbreaking reading - halfway dead and _still_ he jumped...


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## brighteyes (10 April 2011)

glenruby said:



			I think those DM photos show what happened Dooneys Gate, he had a horrific fall himself, landed/got up facing the wrong way and Or Noir de Somoza fell on top of him.
		
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And it gets worse


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## brighteyes (10 April 2011)

Doesn't make it any better.  Most horses try their hearts out because we ask them to.


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## Caledonia (10 April 2011)

brighteyes said:



			This makes for heartbreaking reading - halfway dead and _still_ he jumped...
		
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Horses do - they're already programmed to jump. He won't have made any 'decision' to jump, his brain will have sent the signals. And in fact, the reason he fell so spectacularly was he pretty much ran into it. I've seen it happen eventing. A friend of mine had a horse die underneath her over a fence - she felt him go wooden underneath her, he took off, but didn't land. She was very lucky.

I know a few people who have had horses die of heart attacks under them - a couple hunting, a couple hacking, one in a ptp, one at a BE Novice. All of these were in the 5-10 age bracket ......... it happens, and is nothing to do with lack of care, or cruelty.


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## MochaDun (10 April 2011)

tess1 said:



			I think what happened today in the National is very, very sad.  I was brought up by a father who loved racing and it was his proud boast that he'd taken me to every racecourse in the country by the age of fourteen!  I was happy to take my dad to see the National as a treat when he was seventy .... now many years ago.  From the age of fourteen I rode flapping ponies (racing ponies - flat, not jumping).  I always thought they enjoyed it as much as I did.

As I've got older I've questioned more about what we do with horses.  My personal feeling, and I appreciate that other people feel differently, is that two dead horses, a horse that needed oxygen and couldn't make it to the winner's enclosure, other horse(s?) who have died at the same meeting, a jockey in critical condition, and (according to the guardian) a five day ban on the rider of the winner of the national for excessive whip use is a big price to pay for a few days of 'sport'.  The statistics suggest that the number of horses who die on this particular course is very high.  I think it is appalling that these dead/dying horses were described as 'obstacles' and agree with the poster who said that 'receiving on-going veterinary treatment' might have been more sensitive and a lot closer to the truth. 

I think the link posted by fburton is interesting in its take on racing.  Luca Cumani does indeed say that racing harnesses the flight instinct of the horse.  As he points out, why would a horse push himself through the pain barrier?  He says that the jockey is 'agitating' the horse, and the horse that runs the fastest survives - or not, in the case of these horses that have died.  In the herd, one gets frightened and runs, and then everyone else runs.  As commented in the clip, racing has harnessed fear and turned it into a multi million pound industry.  I think there is a lot of truth in this view - certainly I see no reason why LC would say these things to camera unless he believed them to be true - and I'm sure he knows a hell of a lot about horses!!

It's obvious that these kinds of events won't be banned.  It's also obvious that the people who know and care for these horses will be deeply upset at their loss.  The guy who owned the flappers I rode cried like a kid when his favourite pony died in an unforseeable and tragic accident.  I think that if anything can be done to make the sport safer in any way, than that can only be a good thing.  No one wants their horse to die in a race.  No one wants to have ridden a horse to his death.  I am disappointed to read some posts on this forum that seem to belittle the loss of these horses - there is always a lesson to be learned from these events ... I don't think that expressing the view that it is not really such a big deal is very constructive.

apologies if this has already been posted

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sands--end-dog-food-French-dinner-plates.html

sensationalist reporting definitely I think, given the timing, but nevertheless there is truth in here somewhere and sadly gives more fuel to the fire that horses are viewed as a commodity by the racing 'industry', to be chewed up and spat out when superfluous to requirements.

The DM has also printed some pictures which personally I find pretty horrific.  In fact, some of them are so graphic that I am surprised they have been printed, given the fact that they show a jockey being apparently crushed as well as the fate of a now dead horse in pretty clear detail.  However, I think it is important that these pictures are shown because only when people see what really goes on in these situations can they make an informed judgement as to whether it is acceptable or not.

RIP brave horses that lost their lives today.  I hope no other horse (or human) has suffered serious injuries as a result of today's events.
		
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I agree ^^ though I think those DM photos should have been printed, IMO it wasn't sensationalism, it's the reality of the "sport".  Not that you can really compare it at all, but just think how important early photos were of the world wars and Vietnam and Nagasaki and everywhere else inbetween where the power of a photo by its printing and showing what's involved may have led to better or different situation being the outcome next time round.  Just think of the significance of that video appearing in the press of Anne the elephant being beaten coming to light just 2 weeks ago.  It may have been uncomfortable but being in the press meant a better outcome for her.   It's all I would want for horse-racing too and particularly the Grand National -  that things are learnt from yesterday.  While I'm no horse-racing fan I've been astonished today by people I know who are horse-racing fans who have said they won't watch the National ever again (not that that changes anything).


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## tess1 (10 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			Lets be clear, are you wanting to stop racing in general, or the National?
		
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If you had read my other post I would have hoped that it was clear that I am not arguing to stop racing in general, or the National.  I think it is unrealistic to imagine it would ever be stopped, and therefore it is best to consider how to make it safer for horses and riders.  An average of one horse death per day over the last eleven years of the National meeting is, to my mind at least, unacceptably high, and suggests that things like ground conditions, size of fences and drops, number of horses allowed to take part and how the horses qualify all need to be considered.  No one wants to lose a horse under such tragic circumstances, but realistically people will always want to race horses; therefore the more that can be done to increase the chances of horses coming home safely the better, surely?


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## ChesnutsRoasting (10 April 2011)

alligator40 said:



			of course it doesn't, just pointing out that racing isn't the only sport where unpleasant things happen to horses
		
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You are right. Just leaves a very sour taste in the mouth when people make money out of it.


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## glenruby (10 April 2011)

Again - very few owners make money out of racing and no one makes money out of fallen horses - except perhaps the hunt and bookies.

Also re: Ornais - he appeared to lose his action 3 strides out. It would be impossible for a horse (or jockey) to pull up from a strong gallop within 3 strides therefore he would have had to tackle the fence. And he didnt exactly jump it either. 

And Le Samurai - in the absence of the herd instinct and the fact that event horses do not usually tackle the fences from quite the same pace as racehorses - he could have been pulled up. That was rider error. I have watched both videos many many times.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (10 April 2011)

glenruby said:



			Again - very few owners make money out of racing and no one makes money out of fallen horses - except perhaps the hunt and bookies.

Yes, would be interesting to know the exact monetary figures the bookies made out of the two dead horses in the GN.
		
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## Caledonia (10 April 2011)

blazingsaddles said:



			You are right. Just leaves a very sour taste in the mouth when people make money out of it.
		
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Indeed - the papers have made more money than anyone else out of it. 



tess1 said:



			If you had read my other post I would have hoped that it was clear that I am not arguing to stop racing in general, or the National.  I think it is unrealistic to imagine it would ever be stopped, and therefore it is best to consider how to make it safer for horses and riders.  An average of one horse death per day over the last eleven years of the National meeting is, to my mind at least, unacceptably high, and suggests that things like ground conditions, size of fences and drops, number of horses allowed to take part and how the horses qualify all need to be considered.  No one wants to lose a horse under such tragic circumstances, but realistically people will always want to race horses; therefore the more that can be done to increase the chances of horses coming home safely the better, surely?
		
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There was one year when the meeting lost 9 horses - or a similar figure. That distorts the statistics significantly. Remove that, and it is not one a day. 

That aside - if you use statistics, then use the fatalities to runners percentage. This w/e meeting had 328 runners, and 3 fatalities. That is less than 1%, and it is not the norm, it's slightly higher.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (10 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			Indeed - the papers have made more money than anyone else out of it. 
QUOTE]

Again, would be interesting to know the increase in sales of the weekend papers due to their reporting of the Grand National.
		
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## Caledonia (10 April 2011)

Well why don't you research it then?


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## ChesnutsRoasting (10 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			Well why don't you research it then?
		
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I am not the one making unsubstantiated statements - thats you. Its called put up or shut up.


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## Caledonia (10 April 2011)

blazingsaddles said:



			I am not the one making unsubstantiated statements - thats you. Its called put up or shut up.

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You are the one that wants to know? 

FWIW, the bookies will have made next to nothing out of these two horses, Ornais went off around 80-1 and Dooney's Gate around 66-1.

Feel free to do enough research to prove me wrong, however.  

I look forward to seeing it.


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## brighteyes (10 April 2011)

alligator40 said:



			of course it doesn't, just pointing out that racing isn't the only sport where unpleasant things happen to horses
		
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You know I know that. I'm fluffy, but a realist.  If they are going to go, let them go quickly.

I was merely voicing my sadness that in spite of being hindered or affected prior to taking off Ornais still attempted (vaguely) the obstacle, and after Dooneys Gate scrambled to he feet, he was struck by two others.  

Anyhow, they were, I'm sure attended to speedily and didn't suffer for long, if at all.


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## tallyho! (10 April 2011)

Even if the numbers starting were to be reduced that at least would be something.. RIP brave horses indeed, but next time it could be someones Dad, brother, uncle,son, friend...

No matter how exhilarating, profitable a sport is, H&S should come first and in a H&S mad country, it baffles me still 40 people on horseback can jump a fence no longer than a semi! Surely halve that number...

It also is sad that a human or an animal can suffer a heart attack at any time and I guess that is life. I have changed my mind a bit during today... I don't think we should ban the GN or eventing or hunting... lets just make it that little bit safer for all concerned. Life is precious...


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## glenruby (10 April 2011)

Caledonia is correct - those horses went off at long odds hence the "perhaps" in my post. 

As regards the Luca Cumani posts from earlier. I have the utmost respect for the man, BUT I do think he has got that a bit wrong. Some of it is down to the difference between NH and flat racing, however I think it IS wrong that the horses are running out of fear. Racing DOES make use of the flight or fight instinct - but how many horses running out of fear prick their ears, listen to their rider and gallop on keenly? Anyone who has sat on a frightened bolting horse knows that they run with ears flat back or bewildered to the side, constantly flicking and twitching and have no regard for the riders wishes. If horses only ran with the pack out of fear it would be absolutely impossible to pull up a horse at the end of the races. So while Lc is right about the flight instinct I think he is very wrong about the running out of fear.


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## Flame_ (10 April 2011)

tallyho! said:



			No matter how exhilarating, profitable a sport is, H&S should come first and in a H&S mad country, it baffles me still 40 people on horseback can jump a fence no longer than a semi! Surely halve that number...
		
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It surprises me there are a queue of brave/mental jump jockeys waiting to step into the injured's shoes.   I get the enlisting in the army, fighting for Queen and country, facing danger for the greater good, blah, blah, blah, but choosing to risk your neck time and time again to steer horse after horse round race tracks so people can ooh and ahh and lose lots of money?    I think jump jockeys missed the whole H & S wave that has engulfed the rest of the world.

ETA - I hope they are on very, very good money.


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## Natch (10 April 2011)

Regarding running on flight, my understanding of horse behaviour is that they are thought to run on flight for half a mile then slow and re asess. Unless under real and prolonged danger it makes no sense in survival terms to carry on running until you are exhausted. You need something to remain in the tank for future threats.

How any horse can be conditioned to work so intensively for 4 miles is beyond my understanding, so I am in awe that any achieve it at all. Being whipped excessively to win isnt my idea of something to write home about though, it seems unfair that the jockey is only penalised for future races. Controversial I know, but why shouldnt he be made to forefit the "ill gotten" win?


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## Natch (10 April 2011)

Regarding running on flight, my understanding of horse behaviour is that they are thought to run on flight for half a mile then slow and re asess. Unless under real and prolonged danger it makes no sense in survival terms to carry on running until you are exhausted. You need something to remain in the tank for future threats.

How any horse can be conditioned to work so intensively for 4 miles is beyond my understanding, so I am in awe that any achieve it at all. Being whipped excessively to win isnt my idea of something to write home about though, it seems unfair that the jockey is only penalised for future races. Controversial I know, but why shouldnt he be made to forefit the "ill gotten" win?


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## The Virgin Dubble (10 April 2011)

Interesting statement from the owner of Ornais...

http://www.attheraces.com/article.aspx?hlid=515843&lid=&raceid=&title=Stewart+leaps+to+National+defence&ref=PA+Racing+Feed&nav=&sub=&day=Sun


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## Baggybreeches (10 April 2011)

Dubs said:



			Interesting statement from the owner of Ornais...

http://www.attheraces.com/article.aspx?hlid=515843&lid=&raceid=&title=Stewart+leaps+to+National+defence&ref=PA+Racing+Feed&nav=&sub=&day=Sun

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Quite Dubs, however it seems gnashing and wailing is considered more appropriate.........


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## MurphysMinder (11 April 2011)

Ditto, an excellent statement.

One of the trainers involved in the National lost a horse at home last week, it broke its leg in the field, and had to wait for the vet to come and pts.  Equally sad, but in his case help wasn't there in seconds, suspect it would have preferred to have had the accident on a racecourse somewhere.
I've just heard them going on again on the radio as to how exhaused Ballabriggs was, and how they had to "throw buckets of water ".  FGS the last 2 pt 2 pt meetings I have been to have had that happen, why are they making such a big deal about it.


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## Amymay (11 April 2011)

Just to put my two penneth in.

Enough now. Let's hope the authorities take a long hard look at the race and do some radical overhauling.

Less horses (maximum of 20), no handicapping, stricter qualifiying for horse and jockey and a look at the fences.

I like others get tremendously excited watching this race - but I really do feel that it is time to change things.

Oh, and the winning jockey - as devastating as it might be - should have the win taken off him I'm afraid. In my view you don't get the right to the win if you immediately have a race ban impossed on you for whip abuse.


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## Wagtail (11 April 2011)

amymay said:



			Just to put my two penneth in.

Enough now. Let's hope the authorities take a long hard look at the race and do some radical overhauling.

Less horses (maximum of 20), no handicapping, stricter qualifiying for horse and jockey and a look at the fences.

I like others get tremendously excited watching this race - but I really do feel that it is time to change things.

Oh, and the winning jockey - as devastating as it might be - should have the win taken off him I'm afraid. In my view you don't get the right to the win if you immediately have a race ban impossed on you for whip abuse.
		
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Agree with this ^^


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## Binkle&Flip (11 April 2011)

alligator40 said:



			Excellent statement
		
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"Excellent statement"?  Comparing a sick horse being put to sleep or a son who went snowboarding and injured himself to Saturdays death of Ornais. Ludicrous!
Agree with others that the result shouldnt stand if the use of the whip was illegal.


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## Wishful (11 April 2011)

Making the race shorter would make it faster...  Buckets of water is standard procedure in any race run in hot weather - loads of buckets used at the p2p I was at yesterday - if they've any doubt on the horse it makes far more sense to get him into the shade of the stables rather than into a hot, crowded winners enclosure - none of the horses in the frame went into the enclosure.

As for the size, I thought the Chair jumped best of all, and that's the biggest - the jockeys respect it and jump it well.  Open ditches also often jump well.

As for the numbers I've seen something that sounds similar to Dooney's Gate's injury in a 6 runner point to point (with a safety factor of 16 for Maidens 18 for experienced horses).   The horse wasn't even on the rail on the shortest route, just near the middle of the course, running about 2nd of 6, so I'm not sure that reducing the field would necessarily solve the problem - horses generally do their utmost to avoid fallen humans or horses on the ground.  

As for horses loving it - in one of the races at the point to point, one of the runners deposited his rider at the first, jumped around the next 2.5 circuits (despite opportunities to head for the box park/mounted stewards' horses) but preferred jumping with his new friends.  It was his first race ever.


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## teagreen (11 April 2011)

If we ban whips from racing, I want whips banned from all areas of equine sport. I've been stood at fences at 3* events where the horse has refused and has received 3 sharp smacks with the whip - why is that acceptable? It jumps about with the whites of its eyes showing but no one says anything. I've seen worse showjumping - how many of you have been behind the scenes at big events like HOYS? I have with the show ponies, and you wouldn't believe what goes on behind closed doors....but because you can't see it, that makes it ok and not worthy of an anti-racing style campaign? Even worse goes on at your average unaffiliated event. Racing recognises the possibilities of the whip, therefore has measures in place to prevent and punish its misuse - yet because they make this very public, people shout about whip abuse. No other events have such measures, so people ignore it and say nothing about the whip. It is only because racing is so aware and has punishments that people sit up and take notice about the whip. If my local unaff showjumping night had the same whip rules as racing, people would leave every single Wednesday night with a whip ban - and then people would start realising that the whip is overused and this is awful, we should ban it etc etc.

I read a thread the other day - some poster was leaving the forum because of nasty comments regarding her horse, because she ran it BE and received a caution from the stewards because it looked unfit and was puffing. How come it is acceptable to run your everyday horses, probably no where near fit enough, sometimes with questionably large riders aboard, cross country? If BE has to have people looking out for horses in distress - I've never seen this, but have read about a good number of cases of people getting a warning on this forum alone - then shouldn't that be looked at too?

Totilas is a very stunning horse. He spends all of his days locked up in his stable. It's a very plush one, but he's still locked up, taken out every so often to be put in a double bridle and made to do stuff which he never looks ecstatic about. But do the animal rights people shout about that? No. Animal Aid says nothing about that.

What Andy Stewart is saying, IMO, is that we know the risks. His son knew the risks by going snowboarding, and ended up being paralysed. It is a risk sport. Racing is a risk sport. All equine sports are a risk sport - horses get hit by cars out hacking on the roads, die in their lorries, die at indoor eventing, die team chasing, die hunting etc etc. You accept that risk, and if something happens, you mourn and then you pick yourself up and get over it. I can't believe the attitude shown by the public regarding racing - people saying they'd rather the jockey died than the horse. Get a grip. The young guy lying in hospital is someones son. If it was your kid lying in hospital, you'd damn well wish the horse had died too. "But horses don't have a choice" - yes they do. They don't have to race. I have horses who won't go in the horsebox with their friends. They are using their choice not to go in. Horses are not humans, they don't gallop down to the start thinking "Oh my god, I don't want to do this, but I don't have a choice, look at the size of those fences, I'm going to die a painful death." Every horse I see galloping down to the start of a race looks pretty enthusiastic to be out running, like most horses would be. If they don't want to, they won't do it. 

In my opinion, if our Springs are going to get hotter, they'll need to move the National. You can't predict the weather, they didn't know it was going to be hot. But it was hot at the Beijing Olympics and no one said anything about them running the horses cross country - everyone KNEW they'd be finished exhausted, but everyone also knew they had good measures to cool them down. So did Aintree. The first thing the jockey did was jump off and start throwing water on the horse to cool it down and rehydrate it. Ala eventing. 

Eventing has a higher death tally for humans than racing. I'm more concerned about that. Because like I say - I love horses. I really do. But I'd rather see a horse die than a human. And I think people need to get some perspective. People will say "But lots of horses die racing each year, not many humans die eventing!" Yeah, well lots of horses die each year in every horse sport. You just don't hear about it. Those who don't like racing should maybe spend a year going 'backstage' at big horse shows. Racing is on the tv, you see a lot of it. You don't see a lot of showjumping, or dressage, or showing. But there is a hell of a lot more to get your knickers in a twist about in those sports than there is in racing.

If you make the race shorter, they will go faster. If you make the jumps smaller, they will go faster. As they go faster, the risk increases. Ever watched a 2m hurdle? They go like the wind - and that's the shortest they can race, over the smallest obstacles. They made the fences smaller already, and it means they go faster.


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## Luci07 (11 April 2011)

badattitude said:



			Also you are wrong. The horse you refer to was called Dark Ivy a grey who was favourite I think that year and he was killed at Beechers apparently because he over jumped and landed too steep on the then sloping backwards landing side and effectively landed on his neck from a full vertical position. that was the famous picture. It is also why the landing side was leveled off so please stop bleating about the lack of improvements on the course compared to event courses. I keep asking this but why is Daisy Dick not being given the same hard time for running her 18 year old at a one day event? She is no more cruel and heartless than the Mullins family who all adored Dooneys Gate. The double standard and hypocrasy of these threads is astonishing.
		
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Happy to stand corrected when I get my facts wrong. Now let me correct you about Daisy Dick. The horse died of a heart attack at an event which is a lot lower level than he had previously competed at. How do you work against a heart attack with a fit horse - what would you have done? and you can't say 18 is past it nowadays. There are a lot of horses still out and about, maybe not as full on as when they were younger but still doing a job they love. DD had already said how he was only going to run if he really felt up to it.

Also - I am NOT anti the GN. I am not "bleating" about the fences - simply asking what ways could this be made safer so smaller fields makes sense! and I am not that convinced about the qualifications - maybe the question should be raised - are these stringent enough. The GN is absolutely about the best of the best running - so what can you suggest to make this the fact. And as for the facts about 6 - 8 dying each aintree race meeting - well that came from a friend of mine, who is 100% passinonate about jump racing and has a share. I will dispute it with him then!

Just heard on the radio that a viewer had slowed down the race and counted the winning jockey hitting the horse 16 times between the last fence and the winning post. Glad he was banned - interesting that people have suggested he should have the race taken away. Will sit on the fence on that one.


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## tess1 (11 April 2011)

well, just steeled myself to watch the vid on youtube, and counted 16 hits with the whip on first occasion, 17 on the second, and didn't want to watch it again.  Don't know which time I got it wrong.  Personally I think the jockey should be severly penalised for this - a five day ban is pathetic.  Watching that, and seeing that horse stagger about at the end was pretty sickening to be honest - hard to talk about the 'glory' of this event when you see an animal trying his heart out and get a good beating in the process.  Accidents are bad enough ... pushing a horse that hard and still walking away with the prize is pretty hard to stomach as far as I am concerned.


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## POLLDARK (11 April 2011)

tess1 said:



			well, just steeled myself to watch the vid on youtube, and counted 16 hits with the whip on first occasion, 17 on the second, and didn't want to watch it again.  Don't know which time I got it wrong.  Personally I think the jockey should be severly penalised for this - a five day ban is pathetic.  Watching that, and seeing that horse stagger about at the end was pretty sickening to be honest - hard to talk about the 'glory' of this event when you see an animal trying his heart out and get a good beating in the process.  Accidents are bad enough ... pushing a horse that hard and still walking away with the prize is pretty hard to stomach as far as I am concerned.
		
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Couldn't agree more. Just because something has always been done (driving horse to the point that poor animal reached with a whip) it's doesn't mean it's right. The winner was in a very sad state, his lad when interviewed at the stables was close to tears & not of joy by his face. Can you think of another animal sport where this would have been acceptable ? Imagine the uproar.


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## POLLDARK (11 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			If we ban whips from racing, I want whips banned from all areas of equine sport. I've been stood at fences at 3* events where the horse has refused and has received 3 sharp smacks with the whip - why is that acceptable? It jumps about with the whites of its eyes showing but no one says anything. I've seen worse showjumping - how many of you have been behind the scenes at big events like HOYS? I have with the show ponies, and you wouldn't believe what goes on behind closed doors....but because you can't see it, that makes it ok and not worthy of an anti-racing style campaign? Even worse goes on at your average unaffiliated event. Racing recognises the possibilities of the whip, therefore has measures in place to prevent and punish its misuse - yet because they make this very public, people shout about whip abuse. No other events have such measures, so people ignore it and say nothing about the whip. It is only because racing is so aware and has punishments that people sit up and take notice about the whip. If my local unaff showjumping night had the same whip rules as racing, people would leave every single Wednesday night with a whip ban - and then people would start realising that the whip is overused and this is awful, we should ban it etc etc.

I read a thread the other day - some poster was leaving the forum because of nasty comments regarding her horse, because she ran it BE and received a caution from the stewards because it looked unfit and was puffing. How come it is acceptable to run your everyday horses, probably no where near fit enough, sometimes with questionably large riders aboard, cross country? If BE has to have people looking out for horses in distress - I've never seen this, but have read about a good number of cases of people getting a warning on this forum alone - then shouldn't that be looked at too?

Totilas is a very stunning horse. He spends all of his days locked up in his stable. It's a very plush one, but he's still locked up, taken out every so often to be put in a double bridle and made to do stuff which he never looks ecstatic about. But do the animal rights people shout about that? No. Animal Aid says nothing about that.

What Andy Stewart is saying, IMO, is that we know the risks. His son knew the risks by going snowboarding, and ended up being paralysed. It is a risk sport. Racing is a risk sport. All equine sports are a risk sport - horses get hit by cars out hacking on the roads, die in their lorries, die at indoor eventing, die team chasing, die hunting etc etc. You accept that risk, and if something happens, you mourn and then you pick yourself up and get over it. I can't believe the attitude shown by the public regarding racing - people saying they'd rather the jockey died than the horse. Get a grip. The young guy lying in hospital is someones son. If it was your kid lying in hospital, you'd damn well wish the horse had died too. "But horses don't have a choice" - yes they do. They don't have to race. I have horses who won't go in the horsebox with their friends. They are using their choice not to go in. Horses are not humans, they don't gallop down to the start thinking "Oh my god, I don't want to do this, but I don't have a choice, look at the size of those fences, I'm going to die a painful death." Every horse I see galloping down to the start of a race looks pretty enthusiastic to be out running, like most horses would be. If they don't want to, they won't do it. 

In my opinion, if our Springs are going to get hotter, they'll need to move the National. You can't predict the weather, they didn't know it was going to be hot. But it was hot at the Beijing Olympics and no one said anything about them running the horses cross country - everyone KNEW they'd be finished exhausted, but everyone also knew they had good measures to cool them down. So did Aintree. The first thing the jockey did was jump off and start throwing water on the horse to cool it down and rehydrate it. Ala eventing. 

Eventing has a higher death tally for humans than racing. I'm more concerned about that. Because like I say - I love horses. I really do. But I'd rather see a horse die than a human. And I think people need to get some perspective. People will say "But lots of horses die racing each year, not many humans die eventing!" Yeah, well lots of horses die each year in every horse sport. You just don't hear about it. Those who don't like racing should maybe spend a year going 'backstage' at big horse shows. Racing is on the tv, you see a lot of it. You don't see a lot of showjumping, or dressage, or showing. But there is a hell of a lot more to get your knickers in a twist about in those sports than there is in racing.

If you make the race shorter, they will go faster. If you make the jumps smaller, they will go faster. As they go faster, the risk increases. Ever watched a 2m hurdle? They go like the wind - and that's the shortest they can race, over the smallest obstacles. They made the fences smaller already, and it means they go faster.
		
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If you see terrible things happening behind the scenes then you should report them & not turn a blind eye because by saying nothing you are condoning it


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## leah_x (11 April 2011)

tess1 said:



			well, just steeled myself to watch the vid on youtube, and counted 16 hits with the whip on first occasion, 17 on the second, and didn't want to watch it again.  Don't know which time I got it wrong.  Personally I think the jockey should be severly penalised for this - a five day ban is pathetic.  Watching that, and seeing that horse stagger about at the end was pretty sickening to be honest - hard to talk about the 'glory' of this event when you see an animal trying his heart out and get a good beating in the process.  Accidents are bad enough ... pushing a horse that hard and still walking away with the prize is pretty hard to stomach as far as I am concerned.
		
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As Tony McCoy once said when talking about being banned for overuse of the whip; "there are rules in place about overuse of the whip, rules are rules, they're there for a reason, but sometimes you over step them for whatever reason, but that happens in any walk of life, you learn from it."
When Jason Maguire was on the way to winning the Grand National for the first time (probably something he has been dreaming about since he was a wee child) I think adrenaline may have got the better of him. 
I'm not saying this is a good enough excuse, I'm just saying I think a five-day ban is more than enough as he clearly didn't do it out of abuse. 
Where as Eddie Ahern shouldn't even be allowed near a horse again after what he done to a horse called Marsam. 
I think there is a big difference between whip abuse and overuse of the whip. After you've ran a cracking racing like Jason did, I don't think counting how many times he's used the whip in the last furlong is going to be on his mind. People make mistakes, and I'm pretty sure Jason will learn from this one.
I admit when I was watching it I thought he was whipping him with a bit too much force. But I don't think he deserves to have the race win taken away from him, Oscar Time, who came second wouldn't have won it whether Jason had a whip on Ballabriggs or not.


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## Echo Bravo (11 April 2011)

Look you lot are carping on. YOU didn't have to watch  the Grand National nobody was forcing you too. We that love National Hunt Racing know you have fatalities nalso on the flat racing, also in real life, get a life please or just give up horses, stop watching the racing and just think about young Peter Otoole who is on life support. Watched The One Show for the first time tonight and last time, to see David Cassidy the big hypocrite, spouting on about American racing where the wastage of racehorses are very high, saying he thought jump racing was bad, hasn't he ever watched the Maryland Cup???


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## teagreen (11 April 2011)

Echo Bravo said:



			Look you lot are carping on. YOU didn't have to watch  the Grand National nobody was forcing you too. We that love National Hunt Racing know you have fatalities nalso on the flat racing, also in real life, get a life please or just give up horses, stop watching the racing and just think about young Peter Otoole who is on life support. Watched The One Show for the first time tonight and last time, to see David Cassidy the big hypocrite, spouting on about American racing where the wastage of racehorses are very high, saying he thought jump racing was bad, hasn't he ever watched the Maryland Cup???
		
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Awful, wasn't he? Made me mad. I wanted to hear what Brough Scott had to say, but he couldn't say anything for that big idiot blathering on about nothing that was relevant. 

POLLDARK - who do you propose I report Totilas not having any turnout to?


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## meandmyself (12 April 2011)

Echo Bravo said:



			Look you lot are carping on. YOU didn't have to watch  the Grand National nobody was forcing you too. We that love National Hunt Racing know you have fatalities nalso on the flat racing, also in real life, get a life please or just give up horses, stop watching the racing and just think about young Peter Otoole who is on life support. Watched The One Show for the first time tonight and last time, to see David Cassidy the big hypocrite, spouting on about American racing where the wastage of racehorses are very high, saying he thought jump racing was bad, hasn't he ever watched the Maryland Cup???
		
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What is the point that you're trying to make?

The two horses would have died if no-one had watched the race. It's not about who watches it. It's about the senseless carnage that happened on Sat. Yes, horses die. It happened on live TV- people are bound to be shocked. 

Personally, I'm pretty disgusted by the whole thing- and I like NH racing.


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## POLLDARK (12 April 2011)

teagreen said:



			awful, wasn't he? Made me mad. I wanted to hear what brough scott had to say, but he couldn't say anything for that big idiot blathering on about nothing that was relevant. 

Polldark - who do you propose i report totilas not having any turnout to?
		
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anyone & everyone who will listen ! The drip drip effect takes time but can be very effective


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