# Numpty 'kicking foal' question



## Wagtail (27 April 2012)

Our new boy is really showing character. He's a week old today and is a really fiesty fella. Good points are that nothing phases him, flapping bags, loud noises, dogs, being handled all over his body. Bad points are, he is too bold and won't follow Mum, and most annoyingly, he is a right little kicker. I know all foals kick, but he is ridiculous. If you are skipping them out he literally tries to jump on top of you, or canters past and gives you a real good boot. Yesterday he booted the mare and also got me a good'un in the knee cap whilst I was putting the head collar on Mum. Today he kept kicking his owner as she tried to herd him back into the stable, then as soon as he got in started double barrelling Mum! At first she was shocked but then she swung her hind end round at him and threatened to kick him back. He ran away!  So obviously 'got' the body language messge. My question is, will she be able to discipline him or should we be doing something too? If so, what? I thought about invading his space, making myself big etc.


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## Amymay (27 April 2012)

Mare will discipline.  But you guys need to be careful, and grow eyes in the back of your head.

Owner should not herd - close is safe, remember, so hands on bumb and chest.  Or at a distance that you can't get kicked.

Also as you're able to give more turnout, he should hopefully become a bit less exuberant. 

Many foals won't follow mum....


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## Wagtail (27 April 2012)

amymay said:



			Mare will discipline.  But you guys need to be careful, and grow eyes in the back of your head.

Owner should not herd - close is safe, remember, so hands on bumb and chest.  Or at a distance that you can't get kicked.

Many foals won't follow mum....
		
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It's a steep learning curve for me. So pleased I only have the one to deal with! He's gorgeous though. Trouble is, owner is quite small and I think the foal is too strong so he gets away from her. But I have to lead the mare, as she is a bit unruly at present and too strong for the owner. She is getting a lot better though so we may be able to swap roles soon. We are also getting one of those foal hugger things so that should make life a lot easier when it arrives.


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## Amymay (27 April 2012)

Owner should be able to manage the foal - she just needs to use her strength a bit more.


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## domane (27 April 2012)

Oh I am DREADING the kicking!  Mine is still quite docile and I am very mindful, he's still at the stage where he'd rather have his head at our end to be scritched, but I am just waiting for the day that he double barrells me!  He hasn't kicked out at us yet though I do feel it's only a matter of time.  Although yours is cute, they still need to have boundaries set... not sure how though at such a tender age.... I shall be watching how others reply to this... to learn from


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## HBM1 (27 April 2012)

I can honestly say I have never had a foal kicking at me.  As Amy May says, you need to keep close and if they go to barrell you push their rumps away and say no firmly.  I would not poo pick with mum and baby in the stable either, too crowded and your head gets too low for my liking.  It is much easier to put these lessons in place at a young age.  I also would never herd a foal, they don't know why someone is flailing their arms behind them and making odd noises.  They are only little and kicking is about the only way they can fend off predators (in their minds).  Just be quiet about them, and calm but firm, then when you do shout at them they know they have really done something wrong.


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## ribbons (28 April 2012)

As HBM1 said, we also have never had a kicking foal and we've had some very cheeky chaps over the years. From the minute they are born we manoeuvre them where we want them with arm on chest and rump. Also touch and rub them everywhere. My daughter is no way a big person but she manages them fine. A word of warning though, with very young foal, just use your arms to guide them, if you hold to well they tend to let you hold them up and carry them. I would never trust a foal to follow mum in the open yard, maybe across the field. Handling them in and out is safer and teaches some rules very early.


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## ribbons (28 April 2012)

Also they grow is size and confidence daily at an amazing rate. A week old foal is a whole different ball game to a new born. By the time ours are a week old they know how to taken in and out without fuss, and have a scarf round neck and mostly the person leading mare can keep them moving by tapping bottom. Well on the way to leading properly.


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## Wagtail (28 April 2012)

Thanks, everyone. Obviously you are all expert foal handlers and we are just beginners, so will make a few mistakes. However, the kicking is not all due to poor handling. This foal regularly kicks his mother whilst in the stable. He is a little monkey, but I am sure his exhuberance will be tempered once we are able to get him out for longer in the coming week when the weather improves. Kicking foals are not that uncommon. When we last visited the stud, the stud owner was limping around with a massive kick to her thigh from a foal, and so even experts get kicked by foals. She told us that many of them kicked. It may also be due to temperaments. Most foals at the stud are warmbloods and very large, as is our foal here. I did try to persuade the owner to go for a smaller 'easier' stallion as she IS sixty years old, but she loves her big moving warmbloods and so that is what we have.


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## Oscar (28 April 2012)

He sounds a right tinker!! What is his breeding?

Horses/foals need to learn that kicking doesn't give them the reaction they are after, if by kicking out you move away or take the pressure off he is learning to move you not the other way round.  Or give him a quick short sharp shock, fill a syringe with water and if he kicks or threatens to kick give him a quick squirt with water! But timing is key so he learns that it is this behaviour that is causing the nasty shock.

Sorry not trying to teach you to suck eggs just a few more ideas! Sometimes all we see is a cute cuddly foal, when in reality we have a baby with it's wild/natural instincts instilled.

My first encounter with a foal was a bit of a shock, I went to work for a dressage trainer that had bred some foals, and I was asked to give one some oral anti-biotics and I just thought oh well it's just a small horse this will be a doddle, walked into the stable with mare and foal and foal obviously knew that someone in stable meant it was going to get something horrible done to it, turned round and gave me a kick on the leg!! I was totally shocked and avoided doing anything with the foals again!! Lol.


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## Wagtail (28 April 2012)

Thanks, HL. Dam is by Orlando (who is by Heartbreaker).  Sire is a big Danish WB by Rinaldo.


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## Maesfen (28 April 2012)

He's not too young to have a good thump from you immediately he's done it either, he needs to know now that it is not acceptable and the longer you pussy foot about the worse it's going to get until he's a dangerous animal to be around.
I have been known to throw headcollars, ropes, skips, buckets, brooms, anything at hand  at them immediately they have done it along with a lot of growling at them and sending them away so that they know they have done wrong.  It might sound cruel to aim things at a foal but how much crueler does he have to be to you before you take action; next time it could be too late and someone's in hospital.  Get it sorted now before that happens.


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## Wagtail (28 April 2012)

Maesfen said:



			He's not too young to have a good thump from you immediately he's done it either, he needs to know now that it is not acceptable and the longer you pussy foot about the worse it's going to get until he's a dangerous animal to be around.
I have been known to throw headcollars, ropes, skips, buckets, brooms, anything at hand  at them immediately they have done it along with a lot of growling at them and sending them away so that they know they have done wrong.  It might sound cruel to aim things at a foal but how much crueler does he have to be to you before you take action; next time it could be too late and someone's in hospital.  Get it sorted now before that happens.
		
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I agree, Maesfen. Owner gave him a crack on his bottom yesterday after he booted her, and thankfully the mare is starting to square him up a bit. He only _threatened _ to kick this morning when we were getting him out so I am hoping he is learning to rein it in a bit! He really is a little monkey. Not afraid of anything and will need very firm handling, I know. We are getting a foal hugger this week that goes around the neck and bottom. We also have a trainer arriving this afternoon who has extensive experience of handling foals so hopefully she can give us a few pointers.


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## cruiseline (28 April 2012)

It sounds like your little man needs some time in the paddock to burn off some of his energy  Most mares will discipline their babies.

As others have said make sure that when you are handling the foal, it is up close and personal, if you feel intimidated at all by him then get someone in who is not worried about grabbing hold and not letting go until baby has calmed down and accepted his fate, it doesn't take a foal long to realise that kicking means you will back off, DON'T let him learn this lesson.


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## Wagtail (28 April 2012)

cruiseline said:



			It sounds like your little man needs some time in the paddock to burn off some of his energy  Most mares will discipline their babies.

As others have said make sure that when you are handling the foal, it is up close and personal, if you feel intimidated at all by him then get someone in who is not worried about grabbing hold and not letting go until baby has calmed down and accepted his fate, it doesn't take a foal long to realise that kicking means you will back off, DON'T let him learn this lesson.
		
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Yes, as soon as the paddocks dry up a bit he will go out all day, and once warm enough, will be out 24/7. It should help a lot. At the moment he only gets 4 hours out. Mind you, he spends most of that time flat out asleep. He saves up all his energy for coming back in again!


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## carmenlucy123 (28 April 2012)

Mabel never kicked out untill she was bigger which was annoying I thought I'd done really well she was 3 months old and he floored me then she decided it was a new trick so I pushed her back legs with a broom and had a hissy fit at her I thought that's was the end of it but at 9 months she lifted a leg and kicked but it was a threat more than an actuall kick attempt and this time she got a lightweight shovel round her rump I'm sure it didn't hurt but it made her think and everytime I passed her I pushed her back with it 
I hope this is the end of it now!


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## Wagtail (28 April 2012)

carmenlucy123 said:



			Mabel never kicked out untill she was bigger which was annoying I thought I'd done really well she was 3 months old and he floored me then she decided it was a new trick so I pushed her back legs with a broom and had a hissy fit at her I thought that's was the end of it but at 9 months she lifted a leg and kicked but it was a threat more than an actuall kick attempt and this time she got a lightweight shovel round her rump I'm sure it didn't hurt but it made her think and everytime I passed her I pushed her back with it 
I hope this is the end of it now!
		
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lol, yes let's hope so. We have had a good training session with him this afternoon and can now lead him with a soft rope. He put up a big fight at first but submitted in the end, and no kicks because we were too close.


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## ribbons (29 April 2012)

Well done wagtail for getting some experienced help and advice. lessons learned at this age can last their whole life, good and bad lessons. 
Foals are a whole different area of horsemanship and once you've done it with some experienced help it all falls into place and makes sense. You'll progress on the correct path in leaps and bounds now (probably literally on occasion ha ha ) good luck with him and always be firm and consistent, they are so cute on the outside it's easy to be soft with them,  but they are little buggers on the inside and soon learn to rule the roost. Just like all babies, including human.


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## cruiseline (29 April 2012)

Wagtail said:



			lol, yes let's hope so. We have had a good training session with him this afternoon and can now lead him with a soft rope. He put up a big fight at first but submitted in the end, and no kicks because we were too close.
		
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Sounds like you are on the right track, keep it up, well done


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## Wagtail (29 April 2012)

Thanks everyone for all your help on this thread. And so true what you say, Ribbons. He is certainly ruling the roost here. Everything revolves around him at the moment!


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## Wagtail (1 May 2012)

Just an update. 

We are now able to lead him calmly to be turned out and brought in. Also, the kicking has subsided (now it's biting!). But it is all under control as he is starting to understand his boundaries.


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## Amymay (1 May 2012)

Yaayy, well done.


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## imafluffybunny (1 May 2012)

That's good news, foals can be right little tinkers! 
I tend to kick back at any of my youngsters if they raise a leg, not with the aim of making contact but enough to make them jump away from me. That's what an older horse would do and touch wood they only tend to do it the once!!
It sounds like you have your hands full with that one though!!


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## Wagtail (1 May 2012)

Yes, we certainly do! I have tried the backing up and raising a leg to him when he jumps on me in the stable. It didn't work, but what did work was turning towards him and pushing into his space to make him back up. He seemed to get the message. The mare is getting much more strict with him too!


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## domane (1 May 2012)

Brilliant news!  Because of our set-up we don't need to lead so last night, I thought we'd better start practising so as not to have a gap in his education.  Twas a bit of a disaster so I ended up leading my mare round and round her stable (with a dazed and confused look on her face! )  Boo was just sporting a rather fetching fleece scarf around his neck but after a few "circuits" he had stopped zooming at speed and was walking nicely.  Will work upwards from that.  BUT... in some of the previous panics, he didn't once attempt to kick out, I'm relieved to report....


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## Wagtail (1 May 2012)

domane said:



			Brilliant news!  Because of our set-up we don't need to lead so last night, I thought we'd better start practising so as not to have a gap in his education.  Twas a bit of a disaster so I ended up leading my mare round and round her stable (with a dazed and confused look on her face! )  Boo was just sporting a rather fetching fleece scarf around his neck but after a few "circuits" he had stopped zooming at speed and was walking nicely.  Will work upwards from that.  BUT... in some of the previous panics, he didn't once attempt to kick out, I'm relieved to report....
		
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Well done. At least you are starting to get him used to things. We are waiting for one of these http://www.foaltohorse.co.uk/page3.htm
They are a bit expensive, but look to be very handy and easy to use. We are currently using a soft rope around his neck and shoulder and just a hand on his bottom, but as he grows, the foal hugger will give a bit more control. We are also getting him used to having his foal slip put on before going out and coming in, even though we are not using it to control him at all.


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## Amymay (1 May 2012)

Wow, that looks bloomin lethal........


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## Wagtail (1 May 2012)

amymay said:



			Wow, that looks bloomin lethal........
		
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Apparently both ropes fall free from the foal as soon as you release your grip. I don't think they would be able to market it if people were having accidents with them.


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## Amymay (1 May 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Apparently both ropes fall free from the foal as soon as you release your grip. I don't think they would be able to market it if people were having accidents with them.
		
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Ah right.  Yes, that would be my worry - if foal got away from you unless the rope slipped harmlessly away it would end up in disaster.


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## Thistle (1 May 2012)

I just use two scarves, one round the neck and one behind the quarters, I hold them together at the wither. Exactly the same principle but a hell of a lot cheaper. I put a foal slip on but don't lead from it. I take it off as part of the turn out routine as I feel sorry for the mare when she gets buted in the udder by a greedy foal with a nose adjustment buckle.


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## domane (1 May 2012)

Blimey, that Foal Hugger kit looks expensive for what it is.... but you do get a drawstring bag!   You could have gone for this...

http://www.yourhorse.co.uk/Gear-rev...ds/Lungeing/Zilco-Europe-Ltds-Control-A-Foal/

If you get fed up with the foal, you could always hang it up somewhere!!!


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## Wagtail (1 May 2012)

domane said:



			Blimey, that Foal Hugger kit looks expensive for what it is.... but you do get a drawstring bag!   You could have gone for this...

http://www.yourhorse.co.uk/Gear-rev...ds/Lungeing/Zilco-Europe-Ltds-Control-A-Foal/

If you get fed up with the foal, you could always hang it up somewhere!!! 

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Haha, yes! It's less than half the price. But owner has ordered the foal hugger now. I think it will be easier and quicker to put on though.


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