# A musing from a grumpy old git.



## PaddyMonty (26 August 2016)

I'm wondering if people set their expectations and goals far too low these days and why.
My last horse went from having done one intro (not with me) to a top 10 placing at BD regionals in 6 months.
Current horse 8 weeks ago was bent like a banana, charged her fences and nose dived over them generally taking the poles with her. Now I would most likely get her round a BE90 without disgracing ourselves too badly.
Now I dont consider myself a talented and gifted rider. I seen some of those and that aint me  but I set and expectation of the horse and then work dam hard to achieve it. Next season we will be starting eventing. Plan is to skip BE80 and go straight in at BE90 with a view t be doing BE100 mid season. Perfectly reasonable to my way of thinking.

On the flip side I see post after post about people schooling their horse for 12-18 months and feel they might be able to do an intro test soon. Taking years just to jump 70cm. Stick at the same level eventing all season, think getting over the last fence SJ is an achievement even if 6 poles have gone down during the round.

Why?

Is it a lack of rider confidence, are instructors not pushing their pupils anymore, is the pat on the back mentality we have for the slightest of success lowering expectations or do people just not want to put the effort in anymore? Have people lost sight of what can be achieved with correct training and effort? I just don't understand why the horse world seems to be sinking in to mediocraty.

Would be interested in how others think / feel about this.


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## ljohnsonsj (26 August 2016)

I don't think the equestrian world churns out brave riders anymore, and everyone always gives everyone praise for the slightest little things that people are happy with okay, and don't strive for any better now! A lot of riders I see these days are very windy, blame everything on the horse etc. We just don't have brave riders that will go fast and turn tight in jump offs and take a few strides out! They are few and far between anyway.


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## LadySam (26 August 2016)

May I ask Mr Git - how much time do you have to work with your horse?  Not having a go, just wondering. The impression I get from a lot of people is that they are juggling busy lives, full time jobs etc with horsey life, so the time they have for training and making that training stick is limited. So, if you have more time, perhaps what you can achieve in 6 months would by necessity take others longer.  (Just a thought, for all I know your life outside of horses is just as busy as anyone else's.)

One thing I do notice about the way to talk is that you have a definite goal and a definite plan for how to achieve it.  I wonder how many people actually have that, instead of floating along until something feels right/different/the fates intervene. Maybe that's part of it, I don't know.


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## Horsemad12 (26 August 2016)

Lots of reasons

1. Quality of horse in first place
2. Attitude of horse 
3. Previous history of horse
4. Availability of transport
5. Money
6. Experience
7. Confidence
8. Desire


I could go on and on.

Well done for your achievements but I have seen riders crushed by people criticizing their goals and ambitions because they were below theirs.  Each to their own and let us all enjoy our horses.

Sorry, but feel very strongly about this!


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## PaddyMonty (26 August 2016)

I have a full time job working around 60 hours a week. Generally ride 5 times a week but each of those will be a schooling session (flat or SJ) followed by a hack of around 1 hour. Those times I dont school then I will hack for 2 to 3 hours. 
PS also married with two kids and help wife (also has high level stressy job) with her two horses as well.
I dont think it's so much about time available as how you use that time.


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## Tapir (26 August 2016)

I agree.  I have friends who have had their horses years, have very regular lessons (as least once a week) and are still doing unaffiliated prelim dressage.  I know that both horses and riders are perfectly capable of doing all the elementary test movements.  I think that they'd rather be placed at prelim than move up a level and not get a rosette.


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## milliepops (26 August 2016)

I'm firmly in your mindset PM and probably with a similar amount of drive and expectations.  Some people just don't feel the need nor want to push themselves any harder or higher, so there's a danger here of assuming everyone wants the same things.  That said...

I'm on a yard of (lovely) happy hackers - I really don't mean to talk them down as they are a lovely group who care for their horses fabulously and it's the happiest yard I've ever been on.  
 but they lack a combination of self confidence and knowledge, but also ambition IMVHO   I'm the one in the school before work day after relentless day, riding in all weathers, in the dark, when I'm tired, when the horseflies are buzzing... they prioritise their family life and comfort more highly than I do!  This is not being unkind, I want success more than they do (god knows I lack the horsepower but have a massively high work ethic! :lol, they want a family life more than I do, it's about priorities.

BUT I also have doubts about their tuition-  One of the other liveries mentioned that a particular backward thinking, kickalong horse was just that and couldn't be improved and the instructor agreed - if I had any personal influence in that situation it would be taught to go forward smartly and life would be easier for everyone involved with that horse...  it's not complicated, but it would require self discipline and lots of effort to start with.

I know I've found it easier to aim high and achieve more with subsequent horses, having clambered and stumbled my way up the levels with one horse.  I know how to make progress faster by being more rigorous in training and picking up on small faults that would hamper progress. It's hard to do that on the first horse because you are still finding out what 'correct' feels like, so I expect a lack of experience plays a huge part. 
 You know if someone asks for help on something and you sit on their horse, and it's unbalanced, uneducated and generally not a very pleasant ride in comparison to something schooled?  If people never ride that schooled horse, they never know what they are missing, and what a pleasure it could be with an injection of effort, and therefore going up the levels can seem like something forever out of reach.


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## milliepops (26 August 2016)

Horsemad12 said:



			Well done for your achievements but I have seen riders crushed by people criticizing their goals and ambitions because they were below theirs.  Each to their own and let us all enjoy our horses.

Sorry, but feel very strongly about this!
		
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wholeheartedly agree about it being each to their own. No one need to go out and prove anything at all, it's just a hobby for virtually all of us.
 But I personally see people who are not feeling empowered and able to strive any higher by the same measure. Being held back. There are people around being done a disservice by their instructors/trainers (I used to be such a person until I swapped to a different trainer) and not being encouraged to stretch themselves or aim a little higher.  A good trainer will inspire their pupil to feel that they could achieve more *if they want to*.  

I don't think quality of horse,your first point, needs to be something that holds people back, if they want to achieve more. You can go a long way with good training and effort.  That's the thing I feel very strongly about


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## Casey76 (26 August 2016)

Well, I have to say that my instructor hammers me  She is adamant that I go out and compete this season (in France that starts on 01 Sep), but I mustn't embarrass her, so while we really concentrated on all of the basics (suppleness, bend, lateral and horizontal flexion etc) for the past 6 months, we are nor really focusing on ring craft.  The amount of times last night I heard "no! again!"   the beast was making me practice medium trot in sitting (where rising is perfectly acceptable, and even marked in the directives).

I love her.  She always pushes me just out of my comfort zone to get the best, and always has great exercises to spark up my own schooling.

Unfortunately lack of transport is going to be a hindrance, as I can't afford to hire a box for the weekend (280&#8364 just for a test or two...


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## chestnut cob (26 August 2016)

So many factors.  Some people are nervous and have no self belief.  Some have rubbish tuition and never really get very far. Some simply have no interest in being very competitive. Others have horses who are limited maybe due to slight soundness issues, undiagnosed grumbling problems that the owners don't pick up on so they just potter around doing 60cm SJ courses forever.  Some horses have a bad attitude and are ungenerous, yet people insist on persevering with them because they are sentimental.  Some people don't have a lot of cash and so insist on "learning" by only going to competitions instead of investing in really good training.  For others it's lack of transport.  Many reasons.

I think MP makes a good point - until you sit on a really nice horse with a good attitude, you never know what you're missing so people persevere with horses that give back very little.

I am like you in a way PM in that I like to have goals.  I like my training to have goals, I like to know and understand what I'm working towards and how to achieve it.  For various reasons, my horse has been confined to hacking, flatwork and poles this year but I couldn't stand "just" hacking and having lessons.  I've joined BD to give myself something to aim for because I can track my progression.
However, I loved eventing but stopped mainly because of time and money.  I work away in Europe reasonably often now and I just don't have the time to put into the training and top-up competitions I needed to do in between events.  I also couldn't guarantee I could jump often enough each week to keep my eye in so I felt that for now, eventing was not a sport I wanted to pursue.  My horse has plenty of ability to be doing 100s but TBH even if I went out now and did a 90cm HT, I'd be happy with that and currently have no interest in going any higher because I can't put the work in to make it happen at the moment.


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## milliepops (26 August 2016)

Casey76 said:



			Well, I have to say that my instructor hammers me  She is adamant that I go out and compete this season (in France that starts on 01 Sep), but I mustn't embarrass her, so while we really concentrated on all of the basics (suppleness, bend, lateral and horizontal flexion etc) for the past 6 months, we are nor really focusing on ring craft.  The amount of times last night I heard "no! again!"   the beast was making me practice medium trot in sitting (where rising is perfectly acceptable, and even marked in the directives).

I love her.  She always pushes me just out of my comfort zone to get the best, and always has great exercises to spark up my own schooling.
		
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I love the sound of this. You're clearly the right kind of client for her though, soaking it up rather than feeling overwhelmed 

The more I think about it, I think the training (or lack of) has a huge part in this - there are loads of people having regular training with local instructors but never getting the moment of inspiration that shows them what the future could be..  makes me feel so sad. What's the point in doing the same lesson over and over again? waste of time and money.
 I've had a few truly life changing lessons which I'll never forget, and which transformed my horsey goals forever. I'd never accept limiting training ever again.


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## PaddyMonty (26 August 2016)

milliepops said:



			If people never ride that schooled horse, they never know what they are missing, and what a pleasure it could be with an injection of effort, and therefore going up the levels can seem like something forever out of reach.
		
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That is a very good point. Perhaps people dont realise what could be achieved with the horse they have.


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## stencilface (26 August 2016)

I hung around with eventers for a while whilst grooming for a friend.  It may be prevalent everywhere, but I've never heard so many excuses in my life! And this is people competing at 1*  and above. Nothing was ever their fault, it was always the ground, the light, the way the leaves blew just so. Grr it drove me nuts!

My ambition is fairly limited these days, but this is a temporary thing, although having lessons with a great instructor I'm now hopefully ironing out basic issues that have probably been there for years and haven't been spotted by a variety of professionals. Fingers crossed I'll have a straight and sound horse by the end! I find not knowing yourself and also not finding good instructors the worst vicious circle, how do you know what's right? It's a constant learning curve.

Just today a new vet turned what is normally a very stressful vaccination day with a opinionated mule completely stress free, my mind is blown!  And we've had horses for nearly 30 years, despite the Internet etc there's still an awful amount of witchcraft and fumbling in the dark with horses


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## Auslander (26 August 2016)

I think riding is far more of a leisure activity nowadays, where 20 years ago, only people who had a plan rode, whether that plan was to event, do dressage, hunt, or whatever. I don't have an issue with people who are content to remain within their comfort zone, and to do what they've always done, rather than striving to improve themselves/their horses. I don't think it's for anyone else to say what someone "should" be trying to achieve. It's a personal choice, and that's fine. 
I have a very nice horse, and hypothetically, I am capable enough (and he is more than capable of) going out competing at PSG level. We don't, because he's already more than proved himself, and deserves an easy semi-retirement, and I couldn't be less interested in competing. We mostly hack about on the buckle, and occasionally have a play in the school. I don't try and improve him, and he doesn't work at anything like the level he used to - but I'm happy, and he's happy. Win Win...


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## chestnut cob (26 August 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			That is a very good point. Perhaps people dont realise what could be achieved with the horse they have.
		
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Do you think a major part of this is the instruction/ training that people receive?

I was always told my horse simply "doesn't like dressage but it's OK because he's great XC and SJ so you'll make back up your marks that way".  It wasn't until I switched to a pro DR rider that I had a complete epiphany and realised that with the right training, instruction and psychology, actually we can do a seriously good DR test, that a horse who "doesn't like DR" can learn to enjoy it with the right training, and that actually it's not just something to be endured so you can do the fun XC bit.


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## PaddyMonty (26 August 2016)

milliepops said:



			I don't think quality of horse,your first point, needs to be something that holds people back, if they want to achieve more. You can go a long way with good training and effort.  That's the thing I feel very strongly about 

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Agreed. I've just about to start teaching someone. Pure accident. I was watching her schooling whilst I nattered to mum and asked who here instructor was. The answer told me all I needed to know. Made a few suggestion to the young lady and she was astonded at how easily her horse did what she was struggling with. She also said her horse is very behind the leg (it is) but that's just him. No way, will cure that problem in first lesson.
I firmly believe any horse(that is sound) could achieve elementary dressage, SJ to 1.10mtr and event BE100
They just need to be trained and the riders believe it is possible.


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## PaddyMonty (26 August 2016)

chestnut cob said:



			Some people are nervous and have no self belief.
		
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I'm seeing more and more nervous riders these days. Why is this?


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## AdorableAlice (26 August 2016)

At last an interesting thread.  I fit in both camps.  One of mine went from unshown to HOY's and well placed in a space of 12 months and to BD nationals in the same year.  Why - two of us producing and I had more time, the horse had an amazing brain, work ethic and was one of those rare types that finds anything and everything easy.

My two youngsters that I have reared from foals (bred one of them) are now 5.  The one I thought would be useless and was sent to specialist breakers has done well but due to temperament problems he has been taken excessively slowly and has just started prelim.  He stuck at intro all winter, winning plenty of them but being an extremely anxious horse it was a case of repeat the dose until he found the travelling etc boring.  Time limited his work too.

The filly was so immature she was broken and ridden away late 2015, came back into work this spring progressing very quickly but was then plagued with injury and set backs, plus being small I was limited on a rider for her.  She would easily be competing now had she not been a 'started, farted, slipped up and fell' creature.

The question has so many answers as detailed in other comments.  Desire to succeed would be high on the list I think and as I age I certainly do not have the drive anymore and have now got to the stage I would not keep a horse that needed to be ridden every day to keep it sane and safe.


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## ihatework (26 August 2016)

While I'm of your mindset PM, I do think horse riding and low level competing is becoming so accessible that it is just a hobby for many and these people just have a different view on what they wish to achieve.

It is very easy to be casually dismissive of the very low levels, potentially to the hurt/detriment of those that are just happy to be bumbling along enjoying themselves.
Live and let live I say.

What I have no time for is those in the above category that whinge and whine about pothunters and unfairness of rules. Either accept and be content to potter about or put in the effort to be good!


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## milliepops (26 August 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			That is a very good point. Perhaps people dont realise what could be achieved with the horse they have.
		
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Well I thought it was interesting that the 4th post on your thread opened with 'quality of horse' 

As already said I absolutely support people's right to not want to do anything more than stay in their comfort zone.

But the ladies on my yard often remark that it's amazing what my cob has turned into, whereas to me, it's the logical effect of 2 years of hard graft!  When she arrived she was so fat she could barely move, nappy, shuffley, stiff, behind the leg - basically your average untrained horse.  Hadn't intended to keep her but I felt a *wow* moment one day schooling at home, and thought it was worth carrying on for a bit to see what else she could learn. Now we have free movement, expression, uphill, bit of cadence appearing at home. I know she will piaffe and passage because I can feel the ability in her ordinary work. I know she will do a good change, now we have a sitting canter coming along.  She cost me £2. She's a 14hh welsh cob, now aged 11. Couldn't be more ordinary.

Helps, of course, that I've felt those wow moments before and also been able to develop them in other horses.  I love it, it's so exciting. I wish I could pass that on to the people looking at *their* ordinary dobbins and help them to feel that sense of achievement.


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## PaddyMonty (26 August 2016)

Auslander said:



			I don't have an issue with people who are content to remain within their comfort zone, and to do what they've always done, rather than striving to improve themselves/their horses. I don't think it's for anyone else to say what someone "should" be trying to achieve. It's a personal choice, and that's fine.
		
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I'm not convinced a lot of people are content. So often I hear people say they would love to do XYZ but cant because.........
Rarely do the reasons seem valid (except money/transport).


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## Casey76 (26 August 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			I'm seeing more and more nervous riders these days. Why is this?
		
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for me it is the "falling off hurts" which has been drummed into me by ending up very hurt every time I've fallen.  I already have several (minor) deficits due to a TBI, which affect my balance and proprioception - it makes me feel much less stable and more likely to fall off, even if I'm seated securely.

Having said that... there are a lot more riders coming to it as adults, when they haven't been able to develop their seat (and fall technique) as kids on ponies.  I envy all of the kids at the yard, who are much braver than I am, and seem to stay on no matter what shapes their pony is making below them.


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## ihatework (26 August 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			I'm not convinced a lot of people are content. So often I hear people say they would love to do XYZ but cant because.........
Rarely do the reasons seem valid (except money/transport).
		
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I think that is a personality trait though rather than equine specific.
I see it a lot in a working environment.
And probably the basis of the saying 'you make your own luck'


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## milliepops (26 August 2016)

ihatework said:



			What I have no time for is those in the above category that whinge and whine about pothunters and unfairness of rules. Either accept and be content to potter about or put in the effort to be good!
		
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^^ suspect it was one such comment on here that may have inspired this post? :wink3::biggrin3:



PaddyMonty said:



*No way,* will cure that problem in first lesson.
I firmly believe any horse(that is sound) could achieve elementary dressage, SJ to 1.10mtr and event BE100
They just need to be trained and the riders believe it is possible.
		
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^love it. Yes, I agree


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## PaddyMonty (26 August 2016)

Casey76 said:



			Having said that... there are a lot more riders coming to it as adults, when they haven't been able to develop their seat (and fall technique) as kids on ponies.
		
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This could be a fair old chunk of the reason.


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## ljohnsonsj (26 August 2016)

I agree with it being how much you want it too. It's easy for people who aren't working hard to say 'well i dont have the money etc etc etc' but nor do I or most people I know cracking at trying to get up through the levels.
I work full time, have a relationship and soon our own house to balance, I also have 3 of my own horses 3/4/5yo I have produced on my own and I am often down the yard at 9-10 at a night before I finish. I don't want a pat on the back, it's what I choose to do but I hate people who leave the horses at 4:30 and say the only reason other people are successful is their 'good horses' without acknowledging the work that has gone into making that 'good horse'


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## AdorableAlice (26 August 2016)

ljohnsonsj said:



			I agree with it being how much you want it too. It's easy for people who aren't working hard to say 'well i dont have the money etc etc etc' but nor do I or most people I know cracking at trying to get up through the levels.
I work full time, have a relationship and soon our own house to balance, I also have 3 of my own horses 3/4/5yo I have produced on my own and I am often down the yard at 9-10 at a night before I finish. I don't want a pat on the back, it's what I choose to do but I hate people who leave the horses at 4:30 and say the only reason other people are successful is their 'good horses' without acknowledging the work that has gone into making that 'good horse'
		
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A very fair comment.

I still take pleasure from three  comments made to me a few years ago.

The first was watching Robert Oliver point to my horse and say to his friends - that is the amateur produced horse that is taking all our prizes, we do it for a living, it should not be allowed.

The second was a pro producer telling me if he had my horse it would do better than it was doing.  Made me smile as it had just won the open. 

The third was after our class at HOY's, we had finished 7th and the only amateur, a pro advised me to get my rider off and let the pro on for next season.

i guess we all keep, produce, train or merely enjoy our horses for different reasons.  I was as proud of my sausage meat horse when he won his first intro test as I was when my superstar was supreme hunter champion.  Two very different horses with very different needs.


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## Morgan123 (26 August 2016)

I think it's all relative. It sounds like you achieve a lot to me - but the British eventing team might by like 'why the hell are you doing BE90s and BE100s for a whole season' - assuming the horse is up to it, they generally skip through much quicker. That's no different really to what you're saying about people who are a few levels below you. 

I think it's a bit unfair when people bemoan those who stick at 70cm classes because everything else looks bigger - yes it's smaller than many of us would regularly jump, but then again to me 1.10 looks humungous. To some people 1.10 is insignificant. It just depends what you're used to, we all have a limit to our fear/ability. Mostly it isn't the horse that's the limiting factor!

However I do agree to some extent and also find it a bit frustrating when you get lots of 'I always wanted to....' or 'I always thought he'd be good at....' - and you think well just go and do it then!..... so I know where you're coming from.


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## PaddyMonty (26 August 2016)

Thanks for the responses so far. Much food for thought which bring me to a sub-musing......
Taking all the people I know / have met that are out competing at the entry levels (dont like the word low level) when ever I have asked if they plan to compete at several levels up almost to a person they will not respond with "No desire to". What I tend to get is "would be to scared to", "horse not capable", "I wouldn't be good enough". 
So reading between the lines the desire buried deep inside is there but they are probably being held back by something.
Is the training system in this country failing to inspire, instill confidence, create belief? Are their peer groups holding them back? Is it a fear of failure for trying?
I would love to know.


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## milliepops (26 August 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			i guess we all keep, produce, train or merely enjoy our horses for different reasons.  I was as proud of my sausage meat horse when he won his first intro test as I was when my superstar was supreme hunter champion.  Two very different horses with very different needs.
		
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Well, yes, and from reading your 'project' thread, probably about the same kind of impressive achievement for them both.

Those kind of comments make it all worthwhile, for various reasons  don't they? A  few months ago I was stopped at the scoreboard by my judge, asking if I had 'the cob'. I said yes, wondering what was coming next... he said that was the kind of horse more people needed at this level (Novice BD at the time),that would come in and do a job without making a fuss, and consequently win the class. It was one of those days when the lovely smart WBs were all farting about being generally ridiculous. Made my heart swell with pride.


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## Morgan123 (26 August 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			Thanks for the responses so far. Much food for thought which bring me to a sub-musing......
Taking all the people I know / have met that are out competing at the entry levels (dont like the word low level) when ever I have asked if they plan to compete at several levels up almost to a person they will not respond with "No desire to". What I tend to get is "would be to scared to", "horse not capable", "I wouldn't be good enough". 
So reading between the lines the desire buried deep inside is there but they are probably being held back by something.
Is the training system in this country failing to inspire, instill confidence, create belief? Are their peer groups holding them back? Is it a fear of failure for trying?
I would love to know.
		
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Very interesting question!!
Hmm I wonder if people can comment on experiences in training systems in other countries - to me, the riding schools being generally so limiting (not all of them, but many) is a bit of a barrier. It's expensive and difficult to learn to a really decent level - nobody comes out of a riding school and competes at BE90! So then you get your own horse but you're not that confident so far so achievements are slow.... I guess ideally you need a mentor rather than an instructor. 

I think often the most confident people are the ones lucky enough to have ridden from a young age and done PC or hunted or whatever. What could be done about it?? Dunno - more mentor type instructors who help you outside of your one hour weekly slot? More sports psychologists to help your average joe?


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## PaddyMonty (26 August 2016)

Morgan123 said:



			we all have a limit to our fear/ability.
		
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I agree with you apart from this. I personally believe people have unlimited potential, they just need the desire and help to create the ability.
Agree that the pro's would move the horses on faster than I would. It's their living and they are at it 24/7. My point was I am just an average joe like millions of others in the equestrian world with the similar limitations on time and money. Hence the comparison.
I could have used my OH as an example. Complete loss of confidence after her horse was hit by a car out hacking and both traveled 30 yards up the road on top of car. Horse was replace with a 10yo welsh D happy hacker that cost us £1800. OH went on to gain points at BD advanced medium with this horse whilst raising two kids, running a house and holding down a stressful job.


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## milliepops (26 August 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			Thanks for the responses so far. Much food for thought which bring me to a sub-musing......
Taking all the people I know / have met that are out competing at the entry levels (dont like the word low level) when ever I have asked if they plan to compete at several levels up almost to a person they will not respond with "No desire to". What I tend to get is "would be to scared to", "horse not capable", "I wouldn't be good enough". 
So reading between the lines the desire buried deep inside is there but they are probably being held back by something.
Is the training system in this country failing to inspire, instill confidence, create belief? Are their peer groups holding them back? Is it a fear of failure for trying?
I would love to know.
		
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I'm loving this thread, it's way more interesting than what i should be doing so have some more of my 2ps.

I think there are several things going on here:
firstly, too much poor, uninspiring training. I don't think this is deliberate, I think there are lots of people honestly turning up for regular lessons - just like so many are told to do on here - but the instructor is either a bit out of their depth and going through the motions, or doesn't have the imagination or experience to see a way forward that could be more than what they are currently doing. I don't think that it's deliberate, I think they perhaps have a niche with nervous people or very novice people.
Plus  Lots of clients feel bad about leaving their professionals (thinking about recent 'how do I tell my farrier I'm swapping to another one' threads on here recently ...just say so and then do it!)

Second - and this is one that applied to me - it's interesting, appealing and easy to watch the top levels of horse sport. They are dressed up in nice packages - Badminton, BD Champs, HOYS etc.  As an amateur starting out  this can look SO unachievable that it's not relevant. It's like watching a film rather than watching something you could eventually do.

 I lose count of the number of grand prix tests I've watched, or GP level demos with dressage bigwigs, and I looked at them, sighed and thought I'll never be good enough, going home disheartened.
I so wish I could go back in time and meet my former self! i'd tell myself to go and watch some amateurs doing AM or PSG upwards and see that they have wobbles and mistakes, and aren't perfect riders on megabucks horses.. then it suddenly looks a bit more like something you could aspire to.

Same thing if you go and watch Novice BE and below - you'll see the sport warts and all.  Then it looks more relevant.


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## puppystitch (26 August 2016)

I can see both sides to this, and I think it very much depends who is doing the talking. I see plenty of people who have been happily(I assume!) bobbling around prelim / novice for years, displaying their rosettes and feeling proud of themselves and their horses. In my area, they are usually women 30+, possibly also have a career and a family, and here's something nice they get to do for themselves that feels like an achievement. As others have said, the lower levels are so accessible now, and I think it's wonderful.

On the other hand, there are people who claim to have the desire to improve yet they aren't willing to put in the time and effort required and that's where you start to get the excuses. These are the ones that annoy me. They're usually also the ones who will have a horse that's ideal for them, decide they want to move up a level so rather than put in the training they sell on the perfect horse and buy something they can't ride. When that doesn't work out it becomes the bit / saddle / bridle / feed / whatever else. 

I don't have a lot of time to ride but when I do I try to make it effective, I take regular lessons, try to work on our homework and add in my own bits and bobs for fun. I'm down there rain or shine, often in the dark evenings over winter I'm all alone-y on my own-y whilst everyone else is tucked up in the warm. Then they wonder why I got a better score than them at our first elementary test when they've been at that level for years, and we only started at prelim just over a year ago (horse was previously a SJ-er, retired to dressage). If the score matters that much then get up off the sofa!


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## LadySam (26 August 2016)

milliepops said:



			firstly, too much poor, uninspiring training. I don't think this is deliberate, I think there are lots of people honestly turning up for regular lessons - just like so many are told to do on here - but the instructor is either a bit out of their depth and going through the motions, or doesn't have the imagination or experience to see a way forward that could be more than what they are currently doing.
		
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This.  Being able to teach the motions is one thing.  Being able to envision, inspire, embolden and challenge is quite another.  Quite a rare talent, I think.


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## FfionWinnie (26 August 2016)

Well ok here goes. I would like to do a BE80 on my horse. The reasons I haven't yet are we lost nearly a year due to saddle issues, then just as I got that sorted out I fell off and broke my ribs, that's lost me 6 months, and has also devastated my confidence. 

So now I'm back on, my confidence is increasing (albeit not to BE80 height!) and the flipping horse has something unknown wrong with it. 

While I genuinely would like to do a BE80 what I mean when I say that is I would like to feel confident enough to achieve it, with my horse who while she is only 14.2 and a cob is certainly capable of jumping that height and doing a reasonable test etc etc and most importantly I feel safe on her and I want to be fit enough to do it.  

I've got another horse who would do it much more easily in some ways but she's also much more of a handful (and hopefully in foal just now as I knew with the ribs etc her career was on hold). 

So in the meantime I will continue bumbling around being happy if I'm brave enough to do a 70cm SJ course (we did have a win at 90cm BS prior to the saddle debacle!). If I got back there I would be happy and relieved but I also acknowledge it's going to be a long road for me and it's mostly fear based due to finding out how flipping sore it can be if you have a bad fall (which was only on to a rubber surface yet broke multiple ribs!).


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## PaddyMonty (26 August 2016)

FW - you are not the sot of person I meant. Horse and rider off games is a very different matter.
Hope you get to the bottom of the unknown issues and get to that 80.


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## KautoStar1 (26 August 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			I'm seeing more and more nervous riders these days. Why is this?
		
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Because they are over horsed. Plain and simple.


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## Cortez (26 August 2016)

KautoStar1 said:



			Because they are over horsed. Plain and simple.
		
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Or poorly taught to ride?


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## ljohnsonsj (26 August 2016)

Because people these days find it almost impossible to admit when they're struggling/can't do something. Too many 'Yeah buts' I find when trying to help people. Also people are too sensitive. Some of the people who have taught me could of had you in tears if you didn't have a thick skin but they taught me to ride!


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## chestnut cob (26 August 2016)

milliepops said:



			Those kind of comments make it all worthwhile, for various reasons  don't they? A  few months ago I was stopped at the scoreboard by my judge, asking if I had 'the cob'. I said yes, wondering what was coming next... he said that was the kind of horse more people needed at this level (Novice BD at the time),that would come in and do a job without making a fuss, and consequently win the class. It was one of those days when the lovely smart WBs were all farting about being generally ridiculous. Made my heart swell with pride.
		
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I have this conversation with people regularly.  There are a couple of nice sporty cobby/ native types on my current yard (dare I say mine is one...  ) and I always think what nice, easy horses they are.  I often get comments from horsey people (physios, EDT, trainers, all sorts) that more people need this sort of horse instead of something big and flashy that they'll never be able to ride.  Both of those on our yard are fab - good size, can be picked up and put down, will do a nice Prelim/ Nov DR test, will jump around a 90cm SJ and XC clear, usually in the ribbons, sensible on fun rides, nice to hack, just generally nice people to have around.  
I really do think people at my level overlook them in favour of thinking they need something bigger, flashier, whatever.


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## milliepops (26 August 2016)

chestnut cob said:



			I really do think people at my level overlook them in favour of thinking they need something bigger, flashier, whatever.
		
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Agree - Kira wouldn't be the right horse for a lot of people in fairness, she is a tricky weirdo who needs a lot of work to keep in the right headspace, but she does look like one of the easy ones, lol!

Millie - now if I could clone her I'd have a Millie for the rest of my days. She is as you describe, but more capable again - totally plain ordinary horse but she has been a total joy to own and I wish everyone could have as much fun with their horses as I've had with her.


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## puppystitch (26 August 2016)

chestnut cob said:



			I have this conversation with people regularly.  There are a couple of nice sporty cobby/ native types on my current yard (dare I say mine is one...  ) and I always think what nice, easy horses they are.  I often get comments from horsey people (physios, EDT, trainers, all sorts) that more people need this sort of horse instead of something big and flashy that they'll never be able to ride.  Both of those on our yard are fab - good size, can be picked up and put down, will do a nice Prelim/ Nov DR test, will jump around a 90cm SJ and XC clear, usually in the ribbons, sensible on fun rides, nice to hack, just generally nice people to have around.  
I really do think people at my level overlook them in favour of thinking they need something bigger, flashier, whatever.
		
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This is what I was getting at but more eloquently put! In our increasingly disposable / consumer driven society people quickly sell on horses they think don't look the part and buy what they think they 'ought' to have. Or the what they think will impress other people. Maybe they see a name they recognise in the breeding and want to be able to brag about it, but then end up over-horsing themselves. I've seen it happen so many times and it really annoys me as it's purely vanity.


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## KautoStar1 (26 August 2016)

I am on a small yard with a couple of event riders.  They are out competing weekly at 1&2* and one of them brings on youngsters for a 4* rider too.  They are both professional riders, work hard and are driven, yet they are not overtly competitive.  I just potter around with my irish draught (Ok I have been to RIHS and Blue Chip finals with him  ) but I realised while I am pottering I am actually being inspired by their achievements, even though I show and they event.  I am not brave and had a massive loss of confidence a few years ago.  I could barely bring myself to get on the horse.  the thought of galloping round a huge ring at Hickstead didn't even register with me as a goal.  I certainly needed the motivation of a good trainer, but once I found that person, things went from zero to hero in a matter of months.   And I always say to my eventing buddies, if you see me doing something wrong shout at me, don't let me flop along like a sack of spuds, kick me up the ar*e.  I will never reach their levels, and I don't aspire too now, but I do aspire to improve as much as I can.  I also love being a happy hacker too.   Its all about finding a balance.

but I do think there are a lot of people who are over horsed and also have a distorted view of their own abilities, which means they keep bobbing along at intro level because the reality is their ability does not match that of their horse and never will.


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## milliepops (26 August 2016)

puppystitch said:



			This is what I was getting at but more eloquently put! In our increasingly disposable / consumer driven society people quickly sell on horses they think don't look the part and buy what they think they 'ought' to have. Or the what they think will impress other people. Maybe they see a name they recognise in the breeding and want to be able to brag about it, but then end up over-horsing themselves. I've seen it happen so many times and it really annoys me as it's purely vanity.
		
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It doesn't help when people continue to say that 'judges prefer' x, y or z type of horse 
How many times do you hear people say that dressage judges prefer flashy warmbloods? I've never had a flashy warmblood and I've done OK in affiliated dressage - plenty of other people would say the same  Not going to be national champion, but then very few people are going to be so that's not really a hardship :lol:

I don't find it annoying tbh, I find it a bit sad  the right horse is such a life-enhancer and I feel sad that some people miss out on that!


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## Swirlymurphy (26 August 2016)

I think there's also something in the people they mix with.  If you are a competition-minded type of rider, you are 'probably' friends with other competitive riders, you may be on a competition yard, it's like second nature to you.  If you are on a yard full of less competitive riders, perhaps even less experienced riders, it must be much harder to push yourself out of your comfort zone and take it to the next level.


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## puppystitch (26 August 2016)

milliepops said:



			I don't find it annoying tbh, I find it a bit sad  the right horse is such a life-enhancer and I feel sad that some people miss out on that!
		
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You're so right. I think it's the attitude that annoys me, especially with respect to the less flashy horse that gets discarded to make room for the new one 

There's one happening at my yard right now, the girl is selling her perfect 15.2 ish horse because she wants to do 'higher level dressage'. He's perfect for her and is definitely capable of learning, he finds lateral work easy, he's a good looking horse and is schooling nicely at home. She's very 'riding school' and he is is safe, honest and capable. now that he's up for sale she keeps commenting on sale adverts for big, young WBs and my heart breaks for her little guy at home


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## Cortez (26 August 2016)

Oooh! I'm really trying not to say this, but.....the general standard of riding, (and therefore obviously teaching), in the UK is just NOT VERY GOOD. There, I've said it, and I base this on 40+ years of teaching and training all over the world. I have qualifications from all over the world too (including BHS ones), and can benefit from a bit of an overview. Standards are nothing like they were even 25 years ago, when people were perhaps less competition orientated and more focused on hunting? I am amazed at what people seem not to know, even more amazed at how inneffectual they are. I have stopped teaching now, can't stand how little effort people are prepared to make, how they blame the horse/saddle/bit/diet/need-of-calmer/weather, etc. etc. ad infinitum, when in fact the cause is just plain ignorance and lack of a simple work ethic.

Sorry.


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## teapot (26 August 2016)

I think some of you need to go and see what goes on the lower end riding schools, then you might be less critical or seemingly like you're looking down your nose at the wider situation. I'll get on why in a moment. 

I've never had my own horse, so I'm riding school trained, properly I might add. I had many many private lessons of if you cant do it in walk, you're not trotting' and on a massive variety of horses too, not your average RS plods, or group lessons were we fed off each other. The five years I spent there, both on a horse and on the ground was invaluable. I learnt SO much from people who were out at BE and BD every weekend, or who came back from a Lucinda Green clinic and your next lesson would resemble what they'd been jumping with her. We jumped on grass, we hacked, we had to belt out the scales of training as we rode leg yield away from the fence with no stirrups in the peeing December rain (riding is an outdoor sport remember!) or intensive grid work where you really did learn about landing on the correct leg otherwise your Irish cobby thing wasn't going to make the corner. We learnt stride lengths, differences in stride patterns, what was going on underneath us without mirrors to cheat, what an outline actually was, what a horse working correctly looked like and felt, and why it was important. We learnt to ride and to have faith in our ability. Probably the only thing I didn't do was school over proper xc fences. 

Now in recent weeks I've judged two fun dressage tests at a riding school. The raw basics were there but none of them knew how to ride a good free walk on a loose rein, or ride their corners, or accuracy. These were both kids on own ponies and stiff older riding school ponies. I've seen the lessons they have, as I said basics are fine - stop and go, steering, basic position. That's it though. No direction, no advice, no open order, no warming up before heading towards a straight pole off a tight turn, lots of 'not doing the dressage, it's boring' etc etc. The kids and adults who ride there as they know no different, maybe they'll progress, maybe they won't. They go round and round and round and round...  One of the mums watching said it was a pity they didn't have an adults dressage, even an Intro, as they'd love some actual feedback as she wanted to know why she was doing what she was being told to do. If they canter as group they have to immediately go canter to walk. None of them understand the importance of a direct transition, or in the case of one of the ponies, he's started doing canter to halt, whenever he wants and they don't understand why. 

I think one of the biggest reasons you have what you're seeing OP is that the knowledge gaps between those who are out competing every weekend, the 'happy hackers' who imho can do what they like - if you start forcing people to jump a height they're not happy with, well that's only going to end one way -  and those stuck in or go from dead end riding school to being owners of a pet not a horse without ever learning more than a,b,c are getting much bigger. More and more are ignorant of what riding is actually about, or what management actually entails. Throw in the costs of either having a horse, or having decent riding school lessons (£55 for a private anyone?) and the problem's only going to get worse. 

Getting around an Intro is on my bucket list, yes that piddly 0.90m height. I regularly spectate at events, I know Intro is tiny compared to other levels, but for me that's not the point, it's not about proving I can get round a course of 1m10. It's about being at an event, doing three phases in one day, maybe even warming up alongside pros on their PN horses who I've looked up to for years and feeling like I've achieved something in my hobby.  A hobby that I started at 14 and from an entirely non-horsey family. That may not seem like an achievement to you, but it bloody will be to me.


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## milliepops (26 August 2016)

Teapot, you sound like you've taken some of this thread personally but I absolutely don't think anyone is intending to run people down here :/
In fact what you're saying is common to lots of earlier posters. I think it's tragic that someone riding at a RS should want to ride in a show because they don't understand what they are doing or they need feedback. What they actually need is proper training! That's what they are supposedly paying for  



I'd also say that many of us on here are self starters in the horse world with non horsey families, makes the sense of achievement when something goes right all the better.


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## DressageCob (26 August 2016)

I am a reformed unambitious rider. 

When I was horse shopping I had just had surgery on my shoulder. I was looking for my first horse - something around 14.2-15.2 which had a nice personality, a cute face and would do hacking and my usual lessons (I stable at a riding school). I bought a 14.2hh driving horse, not really schooled under saddle, very nervous (chequered past) but a nice nature. 

I still intended just to do lessons in the riding school and some hacking. However, a bloody good instructor, fabulous support system on the yard and a surprisingly able horse meant that over the years we went from getting 50% in intros to doing elementary dressage tests. We've gone to (and placed at) trailblazers champs in novice and elementary, Hickstead dressage masters champs, BD regionals etc.  We've tried eventing (not for us!) show jumping, working hunter etc. All while having a great time together. So I am fairly ambitious.

The difficulty now is that elementary probably is the limit. My driving pony finds sideways difficult and he hasn't established the cadence necessary for the trickier movements. So do I become another unambitious rider who is happy staying at their established level, do I push this horse beyond what seems to be his natural limit or do I buy a more advanced dressage horse? 

For me, I'm immensely proud to have got my horse to this level. I will be quite happy plodding around at the same level because it's a bloody big achievement for us to have managed to do that. What is an achievement for me might be nothing for others, but I don't care. Call me unambitious, whatever, doesn't matter. I'm happy doing what I do. 

What is nothing for one person is massive for others. Who is anyone else to take that away? I have friends for whom it is a big deal just to canter (after injury, illness, age etc). We all have our own goals. It's not my place to criticise someone else for theirs, just as I would hope they wouldn't judge me for mine. 

Although I probably will save up for pony number 2 to go to the higher levels of dressage.


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## teapot (26 August 2016)

milliepops said:



			Teapot, you sound like you've taken some of this thread personally but I absolutely don't think anyone is intending to run people down here :/ In fact what you're saying is common to lots of earlier posters. I think it's tragic that someone riding at a RS should want to ride in a show because they don't understand what they are doing or they need feedback. What they actually need is proper training! That's what they are supposedly paying for 

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This thread and the sportsmanship one seems to have a real issue with anyone who wants to stay at the lower levels. I have never understood by the horsey world is _so_ bothered by people who are happy to stay at prelim dressage, or only aim at an Intro, or be a happy hacker? Everyone in life has different ambitions and comfort levels, is that such a bad thing? Besides which those who happily potter around an intro or a pre-novice year in year out fund the upper levels of BE. 

You yourself comment on the differing levels of ambition on your yard. So what? If they're happy and the horses arn't welfare cases, is it really that much of an issue? Live and let live. The last thing anyone should ever wish on someone is to make them feel as though they should be out competing at a higher level than they're comfortable with.

Re training - that's my point. It's not nearly as accessible as it used to be so when someone eventually gets their own, they have no idea of what they could be doing or what they're meant to be doing. Maybe those on your yard haven't had the grounding you've had?


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## Suziq77 (26 August 2016)

Wow PM - you've inspired a thread like the old days, before the forum changed and everyone gave up posting, thank you!!  I miss the old days, when unaffiliated novice jumping started at 2' 6", but I can see that lots of the new entry level classes make the sport more inclusive for the less gung ho.  I do agree about it seeming that scared, over horsed riders having the same lesson week n week out seem more prevalent and that makes me sad.  I have no issue with anyone who simply has no desire to be competitive, but I would like to think that everyone who rides enjoys it and sadly that doesn't always look like the case.

Sit up, smile and kick on - there's no plan B


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## eggs (26 August 2016)

I don't have a problem with some-one who doesn't want to compete but I do have an issue with people who don't want to improve.

About 33 years ago when I was looking to buy my first horse after having had ponies before that my trainer was of the view that just about any horse was capable of doing a medium level dressage test and jumping a 3'3" course provided it didn't have any physical problem.

Maybe I'm wrong but it does seem to me that people are a lot more risk averse and afraid of failing than some years ago.  Maybe that is why they do not want to push out of their comfort zone?

I think I am a very average rider but am now schooling at home at advanced medium and starting to crack tempi changes - why? - because my trainer (a list 1 judge) continues to inspire me to ride better and tells me to just crack on and not to get hung up about riding the perfect prelim test.


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## milliepops (26 August 2016)

teapot said:



			This thread and the sportsmanship one seems to have a real issue with anyone who wants to stay at the lower levels. I have never understood by the horsey world is _so_ bothered by people who are happy to stay at prelim dressage, or only aim at an Intro, or be a happy hacker? Everyone in life has different ambitions and comfort levels, is that such a bad thing? Besides which those who happily potter around an intro or a pre-novice year in year out fund the upper levels of BE. 

You yourself comment on the differing levels of ambition on your yard. So what? If they're happy and the horses arn't welfare cases, is it really that much of an issue? Live and let live. The last thing anyone should ever wish on someone is to make them feel as though they should be out competing at a higher level than they're comfortable with.
		
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My point and the posts I was answering were in response to the people on my yard making comments such as 'I'd never be good enough to do a Novice', 'My horse isn't good enough', 'I can't believe how far your horse has come, I could't never do that',  'we are only happy hacks', 'I would love to get a rosette at a show' and so on. 
If i didn't give a toss whether I did competitions or not I don't think I'd make remarks like that. So that suggests they do have some kind of yearning for more than what they've done so far, but they lack the experience, knowledge, self belief and so on to know how to go about it.  That's the thing, it's absolutely no skin off my nose whether they ride *at all* but it catches something of a raw nerve in me when I hear people saying stuff like that.

I think the sportsmanship thread is related to this one, but TO ME that thread came across much more about sour grapes from riders who weren't prepared to learn how to improve, wanting to kick perfectly eligible competition out of their classes out of some sense of unfairness. That is a race to the bottom. If you read back my responses on that, you'll see I am not suggesting people move on out of the confidence or competence levels before they are ready to do so, provided it's within the rules.




			Re training - that's my point. It's not nearly as accessible as it used to be so when someone eventually gets their own, they have no idea of what they could be doing or what they're meant to be doing. Maybe those on your yard haven't had the grounding you've had?
		
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we're all on the same page then, no?   No, they haven't had my grounding. I'm not bigging myself up here, I'm just an average numpty that has dragged myself and my horses up but I have absorbed everything I can, and can now recognise good training and poor training.

 They aren't going to get it either, under the current set up. But either they don't know what they are missing, or they do know, and they don't know how to access something better. Either way their training is doing them a disservice - otherwise, as in your riding school example, someone is making money for old rope and that is deeply depressing.  Why go for lessons if you don't want to improve? It demonstrates some kind of ambition even if not competitive... so if they aren't progressing, I feel frustrated on their behalf.

ETA. I do think training is very accessible for those who have their own horses, less so for people without, perhaps, I dunno,I'm lucky to have had my own since childhood.  Pony club, riding club, the affiliated bodies run training, plus a multitude of freelancers and major training centres do still exist.  It's there. It's damn expensive, granted - I pay a lot more than your £55 for my lessons and I provide my own horse & transport it to my trainer!  But *everything* with horses is expensive  it's just another bill   and good training pays for itself many times over.


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## teapot (26 August 2016)

milliepops said:



			ETA. I do think training is very accessible for those who have their own horses, less so for people without, perhaps, I dunno,I'm lucky to have had my own since childhood.  Pony club, riding club, the affiliated bodies run training, plus a multitude of freelancers and major training centres do still exist.  It's there. It's damn expensive, granted - I pay a lot more than your £55 for my lessons and I provide my own horse & transport it to my trainer!  But *everything* with horses is expensive  it's just another bill   and good training pays for itself many times over.
		
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You've been super lucky. Your definition of 'self starter' is somewhat different to mine though given your own pony as a kid, Pony Club etc, even if your family isn't horsey. Some people don't even get the access, let alone absorb the training you got/get. You can't criticise them if they've never had it. They may not know it even exists.  

Yes trainers are expensive, and yes £55 is cheap to compared to some of the pros for a lesson, but do you really think £55/£60 for a riding school lesson is fair game? That's not accessible for all but a few these days. ETS looking at the yard I have in my mind's price list, a non member private at a peak times is £73! For someone earning a basic wage, that's an actual joke. That's not even an advanced lesson, that's the price you pay if you want to learn how to stop, go, and do rising trot. So you look at the other option, ie the yard I mention and you'll learn the basics for almost a quarter of that but have no idea what you're doing or why.  

Some horse owners are utterly oblivious to the state of the riding school world these days and its knock on effect into the ownership world. One kid (with her own pony) asked me if you had to dressage to do three day eventing, and how come as it's so boring. The bubble that some of the next generation of horse owning adults live in is so small that it shouldn't be a surprise that someone with their own horse only knows the basics and enjoys bumbling around in their own happiness.


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## Fiona (26 August 2016)

teapot said:



			This thread and the sportsmanship one seems to have a real issue with anyone who wants to stay at the lower levels. I have never understood by the horsey world is _so_ bothered by people who are happy to stay at prelim dressage, or only aim at an Intro, or be a happy hacker? Everyone in life has different ambitions and comfort levels, is that such a bad thing? Besides which those who happily potter around an intro or a pre-novice year in year out fund the upper levels of BE. 

You yourself comment on the differing levels of ambition on your yard. So what? If they're happy and the horses arn't welfare cases, is it really that much of an issue? Live and let live. The last thing anyone should ever wish on someone is to make them feel as though they should be out competing at a higher level than they're comfortable with.
		
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I entirely  agree  teapot..

My hubby competed intermediate  eventing 20 years  ago on an ex racing TB.. However 10 years later, married,  and owning a gorgeous   but not terribly  scopey  ID mare whom he had owned from a 3yo and didn't  want to sell, he was happy competing at PN and the odd novice. .. Now, pushing 50 and with a bad hip, and the horse in question being now 18yo, he is happy pottering and we will have great  fun at local  xc schooling  on Sunday  with mare and our 5yo son and his pony doing  some of the 70-90cm stuff.. 

Perhaps  in dressage, there is more of a case to be made for people to try the next level up rather  than staying  within comfort  zone, but in the jumping  disciplines  I believe  in live and let live.

Fiona


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## milliepops (26 August 2016)

teapot said:



			You've been super lucky. Your definition of 'self starter' is somewhat different to mine though given your own pony as a kid, Pony Club etc, even if your family isn't horsey. Some people don't even get the access, let alone absorb the training you got/get. You can't criticise them if they've never had it. They may not know it even exists.  

Yes trainers are expensive, and yes £55 is cheap to compared to some of the pros for a lesson, but do you really think £55/£60 for a riding school lesson is fair game? That's not accessible for all but a few these days. ETS looking at the yard I have in my mind's price list, a non member private at a peak times is £73! For someone earning a basic wage, that's an actual joke. Is it any wonder someone buys their own horse only knowing the basics and enjoys bumbling around at their own happiness.
		
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hey, don't point the finger and make it something that it's not - I had a pony because I had nothing else, i bought her with my own money and the child support when I was 12 paid my farm livery of £5 per week.   I went to pony club a handful of times when I convinced my farmer's daughter mate that we could go to PC if her dad could take us in the sheep trailer.  Yes I was lucky to have that, don't think I don't believe it - it was everything I ever wanted and I sacrificed everything for it. Still do.

Ever since then I've learned everything I could watching and reading anything and everything. Helping out at yards for more rides. I never had my own transport until last October (I'm 34 now, lol!) and even that doesn't belong to me yet, it's over 20 years old and bought with a bank loan.  My horses are one rescue and one freebie giveaway. Seriously, it makes me so frustrated when people make out that you need money and privilege to do well.  you make the best of what you've got, if you want it enough.

And my point again, I'm not criticising anyone. Read it again. It makes me sad when people say they aren't good enough and never will be, when they are already paying out day after day for a horse and for lessons etc etc but not actually getting what they say they want.


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## teapot (26 August 2016)

milliepops said:



			Ever since then I've learned everything I could watching and reading anything and everything. Helping out at yards for more rides. I never had my own transport until last October (I'm 34 now, lol!) and even that doesn't belong to me yet, it's over 20 years old and bought with a bank loan.  My horses are one rescue and one freebie giveaway. Seriously, it makes me so frustrated when people make out that you need money and privilege to do well.  you make the best of what you've got, if you want it enough.
		
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That's great but the days of free rides in exchange for helping on yards have gone, owners are far more 'protective' who they let ride their horses, sharing is no longer about helping someone out and keeping a horse exercised, it's getting someone else to pay most of the livery bill. No you don't need privilege but any sport that requires decent training costs money. In my area you have the choice of the cheap as chips riding school where you learn the basics, or you have the choice of the £73 a lesson one. You cannot say you don't need money to fork out £73 a week for one 45 minute lesson. If you're totally non-horsey you probably won't have mates who have something to hack, or a friend's friend with a spare schoolmaster. In order to improve you've got to ride more than once a week but the free/cheap opportunities have decreased massively. 

I'm one of the lucky ones to get free rides because I know people and cannot complain at my new project, he's a dude (though 95% of people would look at him and go 'meh'). Most of which have all come through me giving up my own spare time for free to do various stuff for a charity and the yard we use for said charity. I've only managed that because I've been a student for so long.




			And my point again, I'm not criticising anyone. Read it again. It makes me sad when people say they aren't good enough and never will be, when they are already paying out day after day for a horse and for lessons etc etc but not actually getting what they say they want.
		
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The moaning about people saying they're not good enough etc - perhaps they lack confidence. Perhaps the next level seems an age away, perhaps it's poor training, maybe they don't know it's achievable, has anyone ever shown them a Novice BD test? Do they go and watch others compete? I don't know much about BD at all, but maybe they think it's a closed shop, I assume anyone can rock up and watch. Perhaps they need someone to give them a boost on the yard. Maybe they're afraid of the bitchiness if it all goes tits up. Fear of failure is just as crippling as not having any confidence. Maybe they're too afraid to ask for help. 

There are so many reasons why someone won't or doesn't want to improve, I just don't see it as anyone else's business :smile3:


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## milliepops (26 August 2016)

teapot said:



			That's great but the days of free rides in exchange for helping on yards have gone, owners are far more 'protective' who they let ride their horses, sharing is no longer about helping someone out and keeping a horse exercised, it's getting someone else to pay most of the livery bill. No you don't need privilege but any sport that requires decent training costs money. In my area you have the choice of the cheap as chips riding school where you learn the basics, or you have the choice of the £73 a lesson one. You cannot say you don't need money to fork out £73 a week for one 45 minute lesson. If you're totally non-horsey you probably won't have mates who have something to hack, or a friend's friend with a spare schoolmaster. In order to improve you've got to ride more than once a week but the free/cheap opportunities have decreased massively. 

I'm one of the lucky ones to get free rides because I know people and cannot complain at my new project, he's a dude (though 95% of people would look at him and go 'meh'). Most of which have all come through me giving up my own spare time for free to do various stuff for a charity and the yard we use for said charity. I've only managed that because I've been a student for so long.
		
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nothing will be handed to anyone on a plate, granted. Life's not fair and not everyone gets super opportunities. That's true too. I would love to have friends who have a yacht but that's not going to happen, lol.
They are out there though, you have to do a bit of legwork to find them. I know a few people who still do free rides in return for a bit of help on the yard as it happens. One gave me a massive leg up as a teenager and took me out event grooming.  Everything like that in life requires a bit of luck and a bit of grit.  This is quite a diversion from the thread though   I don't see why wanting a contribution for a share horse is an issue either tbh, if you are using it, it's only fair to contribute one way or another.  

I agree that riding lessons are expensive. Given that many seem to be going out of business I don't think it's profiteering, but horses cost money. Some people will be priced out of the market, which is sad, but like I mentioned I'm priced out of the yachting market :lol: tough luck for me!! I'll also never own my own house, but you know, it's about priorities innit.





			The moaning about people saying they're not good enough etc - perhaps they lack confidence. Perhaps the next level seems an age away, perhaps it's poor training, maybe they don't know it's achievable, has anyone ever shown them a Novice BD test? Do they go and watch others compete? I don't know much about BD at all, but maybe they think it's a closed shop, I assume anyone can rock up and watch. Perhaps they need someone to give them a boost on the yard. Maybe they're afraid of the bitchiness if it all goes tits up. Fear of failure is just as crippling as not having any confidence. Maybe they're too afraid to ask for help. 

There are so many reasons why someone won't or doesn't want to improve, I just don't see it as anyone else's business :smile3:
		
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All of those probably apply. We're going round in circles, I'm saying their training is not empowering them. They are chucking money away week after week. It's not my business UNTIL they mention it to me and it makes me sad


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## Casey76 (26 August 2016)

teapot said:



			Yes trainers are expensive, and yes £55 is cheap to compared to some of the pros for a lesson, but do you really think £55/£60 for a riding school lesson is fair game? That's not accessible for all but a few these days. ETS looking at the yard I have in my mind's price list, a non member private at a peak times is £73! For someone earning a basic wage, that's an actual joke. That's not even an advanced lesson, that's the price you pay if you want to learn how to stop, go, and do rising trot. So you look at the other option, ie the yard I mention and you'll learn the basics for almost a quarter of that but have no idea what you're doing or why.  

Some horse owners are utterly oblivious to the state of the riding school world these days and its knock on effect into the ownership world. One kid (with her own pony) asked me if you had to dressage to do three day eventing, and how come as it's so boring. The bubble that some of the next generation of horse owning adults live in is so small that it shouldn't be a surprise that someone with their own horse only knows the basics and enjoys bumbling around in their own happiness.
		
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I think that is another reason why the standard if riding is lower now.  It is so expensive to. Have lessons at a riding school that many people take "the cheap option" and buy their first horse well before they are really ready/competent enough to look after one.  They are then left trying to learn basics on an animal that probably needs schooling to be able to teach a beginner the basics.  It ends up being a vicious circle as far too few people, once they get their first horse, actually continue lessons with an instructor.


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## ester (26 August 2016)

The thing is to that the more training you have the more you realise what is good and what is bad training, until you get to that point it can be hard to know when to change things etc. 
Good training without your own horse is very hard to access and even then I have found it takes a long time/feel I am finally working it out a bit more (11 years into ownership!) 
Everyone has different ambitions, aims, competitiveness, motivations etc. Thankfully there is something out there for most . I know some people with some very nice, correct horses that have been doing prelim tests for the last 5/6 years at least, and each outing is planned weeks in advance with pre training/day planning etc. For me that seems like a lot of build up for not a lot but if they enjoy it that is all that matters .


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## spookypony (26 August 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			I firmly believe any horse(that is sound) could achieve elementary dressage, SJ to 1.10mtr and event BE100
They just need to be trained and the riders believe it is possible.
		
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A fun and interesting thread; thank you!  Some complicated issues, however. I think there are many things playing into the full picture here, and it's worth unpicking a few. In general, as a hard-core German, I'd have subscribed to the same philosophy you state in the quotation above, but I've had to modify my way of thinking over the past years, thanks to several experiences.

Some of it is to do with the matching of horse and rider: I think in general, people are more willing to persist with animals that have problems of one sort or another, and to adjust their expectations to the animal in question. This can mean that they use the problems or perceived problems as an excuse not to do things, but it can also mean (and I think often does) that an animal that would have been retired or shot only a few decades ago, now continues in a different sort of career than it once might have.

I'll use the Spooky Pony as an example. When I got him, I was a confident rider on decently-schooled horses, with little XC experience, but good on the flat and over SJ to decent standard. I got _loads_ of very competent help with him, and got him to a decent Novice score. He's perfectly capable of Elementary movements out and about, but he does find some tasks physically difficult, and it seems best to school him on hacks. Against advice from a normally-gung-ho instructor, I even persisted with jumping him until courses of about 75cm. I never tried to go bigger, because it really felt like an extremely bad idea, and also with little point: teaching pigs to sing, and all that. I eventually admitted we weren't going to get any farther in the traditional disciplines, competitively speaking, and went for Endurance instead. That's another discipline where a lot of people hit a wall when it becomes difficult, which in this area seems to be at 60km. Despite his physical limitations (he's a metabolic pony), we've made it to 80km (equivalent of 1*), and I think this is purely because he's mentally much more suited to this kind of work.

Now, the Ballerina Mare is far different. She is the most _normal_ horse, temperament-wise, one could imagine, and finds the physical work of dressage easy. We _should_ be able to motor on up the levels. Instead, I find myself struggling to find time to ride at all, with the current pressures of my career. It's a testament to her loveliness that I can basically pull her out of the field, get a decent Novice score, and feel as though that were a mediocre test---but I know that even just a month or two of really regular work would see us out at Elementary, no problem. I keep pummeling myself with guilt for not being able to put in the time at the moment, and I pummel myself with guilt for pummeling myself with guilt. It's pretty horrible, actually. 

In the meantime, the mare is just enjoying being a bit round and grooming the two ponies. I took her for a hack yesterday, first time sitting on her for a month. She loaded like a dream, stood calmly eating her haynet at the other end, and was utterly lovely out on the hack (other than trying to eat the landscape, which wasn't allowed but didn't stop her from trying). Thinking about that objectively, that makes her a really useful little horse, even if I'm not hugely competitive just now!  

Now, as we say in German, to overcome "my inner pig-dog" and get some sort of proper regime in place...


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## Karran (26 August 2016)

This is interesting and perhaps different my experiences are different from some of your experiences. I learnt to ride in London, I rode at the same place from 4 - 23. I learnt how to have soft hands (owner was obsessive about it) how to sit a buck and very much follow nose to tail. WHOLE RIDE T-TROT! type thing and all went in one go with a slight sense of relief that you weren't the one causing a hold up cos your horse had napped, or just decided to stop for a wee or just took longer to get going than the others.
I moved to Spain and rode some horses there, the guy didn't speak English, My Spanish was incredibly limited and for the first time I began to realise there was more to riding than what I was doing.
I came back and found myself a part loan. I taught myself to hack out on him. The loan ended. I found part-loan Current Horse who i have now ridden for three years. She is based at a competition focussed yard. I am not competitive but I found myself longing to jump the big jumps they did.
I was too scared. I have suffered with nerves my whole riding career. CH is a nervy sort and really we're not a good match. I have too many crises of confidence on her that takes a long time to recover.
BUT I've learnt how to hold a contact, sit a small bunny hop bounce-rear and we've worked on learning to get her more forward, how to use draw-reins (please note that this is not a default option but just something to help me get the idea of what it feels like to have a horse use itself properly) This has then led me to start learning how to get an outline (still a work in progress). I've learnt how to canter leg-yield and incline back to the track without freezing with fright that she will fall over as her legs will get in a tangle. YES that actually is a huge fear of mine.
I lost my nerve in hacking her, last summer I was more or less confidently going over 70cm fences but I lost that. Previous Loan Pony I trundled over bridges for the m25, under a tunnel for the kingston bypass and under a dark narrow railway bridge. One small spook on the road with Current Horse and I lost my courage for nearly 2 years hacking.

Recently I have had a sudden attack of bravery and have forced myself to take her out on small trips. I have been practicing with tiny 40-50cm jumps building myself small courses and teaching myself how to steer! How to remember to keep my heels down, to not panic that the jump looks massive and to just count to myself and pop over the jump.

I am sure that everyone (although kind) at my yard sometimes are baffled about why I struggle on, constantly having wobbles and seemingly staying at the same level (despite having lessons and riding three times a week).

I have ambitions. I have a bucket list item of doing a small ODE. I'd like to learn to ride up to Elementary and if I could get myself around a 90cm SJ course then I would consider myself an accomplished rider like the rest of them, however I also know that I'd probably try and push myself further once I reached that level (although maybe not with the jumping).

So to sum up this ramble I am probably one of those who seem to stick at the same level forever. But really when you're almost breathless with fright at the thought of going over a small jump (that my spaniel proved she could jump!) each day I get off and consider what I have done and I judge it against my riding last year and I tell myself that yes, last year I popped over a 70cm but now I did a 40cm course and I was actively looking for my next fence, working out the line and best way to approach it, or that I went for a hack and yes I came back trembling BUT she did a bunny hop rear and unlike last year when I would have instantly jumped off, I kicked on, gritted my teeth and finished my hack. That to me is improvement but not one that outsiders would necessarily see. I am constantly looking to improve, its just at a much slower level than others might.


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## Trules (26 August 2016)

Also people are too sensitive. Some of the people who have taught me could of had you in tears if you didn't have a thick skin but they taught me to ride! 
 agree with this, bring back the scary teachers!
I teach at a riding school,mainly kids and the parents are 100% risk averse, they really do not expect their child to fall off at all. we really are a risk averse society now, blame health & safety. they have totally lost that riding is a risk sport. if you don't accept the risk, don't get on.
 for me the nervous hovering parents should be banned from watching, they hinder. and I see a lot of adults also who are really not prepared to fall off, so therein lies the problem. they want to ride, but do not want to put themselves in a position where there is any chance of hitting the ground.
I am ambitious, but have never got beyond BE100 due to horse issues. I would love to own something that I could compete at novice BE, but I would need serious money to fund one of those, currently have 3x horses in the field, one nappy, one lame, the other young and green. many reasons we struggle to reach our goals! plus BE is damn expensive


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## daffy44 (26 August 2016)

Really interesting thread, thank you PaddyMonty.  On the whole I agree with pretty much everything MilliePops said.  I think there are so many reasons, children learning to ride "carefully" not allowed to take risks and fall off is a good start.  Uninspiring training is another, as is people scaring themselves by over horsing themselves.  But I think the main one is people are often just not prepared to put the work in, or they dont realise how much work it takes.

I must add that if a person is genuinely unambitious and very happy with where they are, then thats fantastic, no one has to compete etc, if someone is a really happy "happy hacker" loves their horse and their lot then thats wonderful.  Its the people that are dissatisfied that need the right kind of help so they can dare to dream and more importantly find a way to make their dreams a reality.

I grew up in a non horsey family in London, I do understand the limitations life can put on you, and I also understand how hard I worked to achieve what I wanted.


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## ycbm (26 August 2016)

I've been riding over forty years, wasn't a pony club child but an adult first horse buyer. I don't think anything has changed except one thing.

There are masses more shows available for people to go to and far, far higher numbers of people have the transport to get to them.

The people who used to bumble around at home now bumble around a local show or low level affiliated.

Who cares?  

I also think a lot of posters on this thread have no idea how much thirty quid for an hour's training is to someone on a lower income who may only just be able to afford to compete at all.

Paddymonty, your sixty hour working week and goal driven time consuming hobby  plus wife and kids sounds like hell to me. Each to their own.


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## crabbymare (26 August 2016)

thought provoking thread. I think that the days where we wnt out and just did whatever classes we could and when there were very few people that had trainers for any discipline are gone and now training seems to be compulsory for being able to compete. this is not a bad thing but it can make people do a lot more in the arena instead of thinking that pretty much any horse that goes forwards and bends left and right can do an intro. after a while getting out and doing will often bring on the rider much more than a lesson will. riding schools are not helping by charging a lot to teach people to ride but equally they have overheads and need to pay staff properly. so if they charge enough to make a living for themselves they are pricing a lot of people out of the market. the people who have the ambition to improve and push themselves to go to say medium (as possibly the most that an average horse can get to in most disciplines) will often find some way to do it but there are so many who get disillusioned and give up. on the other side of  the equation where do ambitious owners or breeders (with not much money) find people to ride their horse? as an example lets say "I" have a nice 4 or 5 year old at home and "I" want to give it to milipops (after seeing that she has done well with the ones she has) who can bring it on and possibly be the only way that could get (with no disrespect to the horses she already has) a better quality or more talented or less spoilt (whatever would apply) horse that could possibly go a few levels further than the ones they have. the costs would often be out of reach because paying for livery would be a lot more than keeping at home therefore "I" would be limited to riders close by and "I" may not have an arena so that makes things harder especially in winter. I would love to give chances to people who work hard with horses that on the surface are not the most suited to whatever discipline but other than not having the horses there is no way I could afford it, and so many owners who do have the funds would rather send the horse to an established name as they normally have the setup and transport or whatever that someone else who could easily be a very good rider at a higher level could only dream of. some people are just happy to carry on with lessons and are possibly simply not going to shows as they are happy as they are but possibly feel pressured to go out by friends. others may be inwardly not wanting to do anything they consider hard and others will push themselves and do all they can to be the best they can be on whatever horse they hcan get themselves on. I just wish the latter could somehow get better and better horses to ride


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## McFluff (26 August 2016)

Interesting thread. And I kind of find myself agreeing with every post. 

Trying to work out what box I sit in. I've got a lovely young cob and a great trainer. It's taken us a year to go from newly broken straight line only (how she was when she arrived) to being able to do nice prelim at home. We can also do nice leg yield and shoulder in and has the right brain for training up the levels (so I've been told!). There is no doubt that other people would have progressed much faster than me. But does that matter? We've all got to start somewhere. Sometimes it is like the blind leading the blind (our first show together was interesting) but we have a good support team and I am willing to take the time it needs. 

I do put the work in, and I am seeing progression, but I don't have the experience to do it as fast as others who have done it several times before. We've been out once, and I think it will take us many trips before we can produce anything like we can at home. I'm likely to be at intro/prelim for a while. But my time taken is not a lack of ambition, nor is it poor training, it is just a combination of a whole load of factors - critically my personal experience at this point. 

I'm actually proud of our progress and I'm enjoying the journey. The only time I wobble is when I feel I have to justify our 'slow' progress to others! Which having written it down now feels pretty daft.


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## Bernster (26 August 2016)

Horsemad12 said:



			Lots of reasons

1. Quality of horse in first place
2. Attitude of horse 
3. Previous history of horse
4. Availability of transport
5. Money
6. Experience
7. Confidence
8. Desire


I could go on and on.

Well done for your achievements but I have seen riders crushed by people criticizing their goals and ambitions because they were below theirs.  Each to their own and let us all enjoy our horses.

Sorry, but feel very strongly about this!
		
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I'll read the rest of the replies now, but this really struck a chord with me. I may well be one of the riders you're talking about. But I say, so what, let people enjoy what they do and achieve their own successes, whatever those may be. It'd be a dull old world if we all had the same goals. 

Ok if they're unhappy and something is holding them back, then it'd be nice for them to know there are ways through it, but otherwise let em be.


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## AdorableAlice (27 August 2016)

Bernster said:



			I'll read the rest of the replies now, but this really struck a chord with me. I may well be one of the riders you're talking about. But I say, so what, let people enjoy what they do and achieve their own successes, whatever those may be. It'd be a dull old world if we all had the same goals. 

Ok if they're unhappy and something is holding them back, then it'd be nice for them to know there are ways through it, but otherwise let em be.
		
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In  2013 I realised that as long as I woke up, wanted and was able to spend time with my precious horses that is all I need.  Possibly not a remark you would expect to hear from an owner/rider who has kept horses for 40 years and been competitive most of those years.  I also realised in 2013 that it matters not what other people think of me.


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## HotToTrot (27 August 2016)

Aha!  But this is an arbitrary, very personal standard.  BE90/100 is clearly well within your comfort zone, so it seems reasonable to you that everyone ought to be able to do it and it's hard to understand why something that seems easy to you is not achievable for other people.  

So, two things: 

1. As to the substance of it, whether BE90/100 is achievable for the whole world and his wife, I fink you is wrong.  I don't think that absolutely every horse and rider could do it.  BE100 fences can be big enough, if you're on a horse with limited scope, if you're prone to a wobble moment, if you've got one that says no to ditches/water/skinnies.  Where I would agree with you is that most experienced riders, who want to compete, and who have chosen a horse to compete on, should be able to do it.  But that's already quite a lot of caveats and narrows the field significantly from saying that every man and his wife should be able to do it.  

2. As to the philosophical nature of it, whether the riders "should" be setting more ambitious goals - well, if that rider is you, then clearly you should be setting yourself the goal of going BE100.  But everyone is just so, so different, and we all have wildly different goals, circumstances, abilities and ambitions.  One person's two-star can be another person's intro test.  So if it takes person 1 18 months to build up to their two star and it takes person 2 18 months to build up to their intro test, then - well done both.  Well done for doing something you love and for putting the time and commitment in to doing it and making it happen.


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## HeresHoping (27 August 2016)

Personally speaking... pride. And money. Or rather, the lack of it.

Personally speaking, going from a very high ranking junior with offers of rides left, right and centre, dressage to medium level, eventing long format at 1*, SJ at 130, in another country, to being told by the Uni riding club here that you are too novice to be on their teams ... that's a kick in the teeth and a half. 

Take an 18 year break. Get offered a horse. See yourself riding on video and think 'WTVF? Where has everything gone? Why doesn't it work any more?' Work very hard through the tears of frustration and flashbacks to Uni comments. Take on board advice from all and sundry. All and sundry recommend high level dressage trainer. Trainer doesn't care what you are doing. If you achieve a leg yield with your left leg stuck in right ear, well done. Horse breaks down.

Acquire OTTB. After all, RoR was mostly what you did up to age 20 because you were good. TB tries to kill you.  Yes, really. Your bottle ups and leaves. Yes, really. Trying to put a bridle on when your hands are shaking and your stomach is doing belly flops is heartbreaking. You get so angry with yourself. Shoot TB on vet's advice.

Buy a beautiful ISH. You didn't want a 17hh horse but the offer was too good to miss. Not exactly a confidence restorer as has issues but maybe, just maybe, will enable you to fulfill your eventing dreams. Find a good instructor. Battle nerves and appalling riding for three months. Pluck up courage to buy a jumping saddle because if you're going to do it, you're going to do it. Up to this point, you have jumped one x pole at 2' once but horse bucked and you panicked and didn't do it again. Of course he bucked, you'd only been going round in circles to this point. You are too terrified to go hacking on your own having discovered horse can reverse at 100 mph. Have you any idea how much that hurts when once upon a time you would ride anything and succeed with it? And properly, because you could ride and were rated highly? Horse breaks.

Now have ageing Connie. I owe her everything. If I am to get around an XC course before I am 50 (and she is 20) we will be going out to win, not to get round. Because I am uber, uber competitive like that. So, we will lick the dressage first. We competed unaffiliated because that's what I could afford. I had lessons once a fortnight because that's what I could afford. Super instructor. Our aims... elementary. She doesn't have the capability of going much further She's been off work for a while but is coming back in. Her capabilities will be about a 90cm. I dream of a Novice. Still can't ride for toffee, but I'll get back on most things now.

I think the over-horsed issue is prevalent. I bit off more than I could chew until Jams came along. The girl next to me has had her TB for 6 years. She is a more than adequate rider, she worked in racing. But she won't hack out by herself, and she won't ride if the horse has been in overnight. Another, a young girl, will happily jump 110 at home. But she won't go out to shows because the horse was on his toes and got a bit excited the last time she went.

And the money issue. Well, it speaks for itself. When we do finally get out, it'll be a £40 unaffiliated fee and not the £240 minimum spend for a BE event (transport, etc.). Sometimes, you just have to adjust your dreams.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (27 August 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			In  2013 I realised that as long as I woke up, wanted and was able to spend time with my precious horses that is all I need.  Possibly not a remark you would expect to hear from an owner/rider who has kept horses for 40 years and been competitive most of those years.  I also realised in 2013 that it matters not what other people think of me.
		
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Are you me??
Having had the t shirt etc in the past, I cannot believe that I'd be happy enough to be hacking,  popping jumps occasionally at RC (I go because it's good for me and mount to get out) and occasionally drag hunting. 
I never thought I could 'just' do this as was always schooling for comps,  shows and events. 
I feel that I have nothing to prove to anyone these days,  so cheerfully tootle about doing my thing  There are some friends who try to egg me on to compete,  however most are younger by a good 15 to 20 years,  I smile and carry on as I am


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## ester (27 August 2016)

McFluff said:



			Interesting thread. And I kind of find myself agreeing with every post. 

Trying to work out what box I sit in. I've got a lovely young cob and a great trainer. It's taken us a year to go from newly broken straight line only (how she was when she arrived) to being able to do nice prelim at home. We can also do nice leg yield and shoulder in and has the right brain for training up the levels (so I've been told!). There is no doubt that other people would have progressed much faster than me. But does that matter? We've all got to start somewhere. Sometimes it is like the blind leading the blind (our first show together was interesting) but we have a good support team and I am willing to take the time it needs. 

I do put the work in, and I am seeing progression, but I don't have the experience to do it as fast as others who have done it several times before. We've been out once, and I think it will take us many trips before we can produce anything like we can at home. I'm likely to be at intro/prelim for a while. But my time taken is not a lack of ambition, nor is it poor training, it is just a combination of a whole load of factors - critically my personal experience at this point. 

I'm actually proud of our progress and I'm enjoying the journey. The only time I wobble is when I feel I have to justify our 'slow' progress to others! Which having written it down now feels pretty daft.
		
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I would absolutely agree with having done it once you will probably do it with fewer bends in the road the next time. I'm still on first pony so  and there has been plenty of bends, and I ride him so much better now than I used to and now he is too old .


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## vallin (27 August 2016)

Attitude of the horse is my excuse  When I first got D I thought we'd be out at BE90 that season as she's got the scope and the movement. Unfortunately though between the two of us we've not quite got the brain. I love her and I love our lessons and the progress we're making at home (schooling round BE90 XC courses and jumping 90/95 SJ courses) but I'm not prepared to waste money on competitions where the chances are we'll get eliminated either in the show jumping or the cross country at 70 or 80cm.


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## ycbm (27 August 2016)

HotToTrot said:



			Aha!  But this is an arbitrary, very personal standard.  BE90/100 is clearly well within your comfort zone, so it seems reasonable to you that everyone ought to be able to do it and it's hard to understand why something that seems easy to you is not achievable for other people.  

So, two things: 

1. As to the substance of it, whether BE90/100 is achievable for the whole world and his wife, I fink you is wrong.  I don't think that absolutely every horse and rider could do it.  BE100 fences can be big enough, if you're on a horse with limited scope, if you're prone to a wobble moment, if you've got one that says no to ditches/water/skinnies.  Where I would agree with you is that most experienced riders, who want to compete, and who have chosen a horse to compete on, should be able to do it.  But that's already quite a lot of caveats and narrows the field significantly from saying that every man and his wife should be able to do it.  

2. As to the philosophical nature of it, whether the riders "should" be setting more ambitious goals - well, if that rider is you, then clearly you should be setting yourself the goal of going BE100.  But everyone is just so, so different, and we all have wildly different goals, circumstances, abilities and ambitions.  One person's two-star can be another person's intro test.  So if it takes person 1 18 months to build up to their two star and it takes person 2 18 months to build up to their intro test, then - well done both.  Well done for doing something you love and for putting the time and commitment in to doing it and making it happen.
		
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This in spades. Someone made the assertion that every horse can SJ jump 1m10.  That's just not true. Some horses don't want to jump at all. I'm sure many are limited to well below 1m10 even when young enough and sound enough. A 1m10 course with 1m 10 and more spreads is a very big course.

I do agree with you PaddyMonty, that of people can't put the money and dedication that you do into it, then they aren't justified in complaining that they don't win. But really, who are they hurting but themselves?

Your ordinary rider out for a day of fun could really do without being looked down on by people who want, and are capable of, more than they do.

I used to jump BE Novice and hunt over big hedges. Many people  used to say 'you're so brave'.  My reply was always the same. Bravery is being scared of something and doing it anyway. It's no more brave to jump 1m50 than it is for someone less confident to jump 70cm.


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## Pearlsasinger (27 August 2016)

teapot said:



			This thread and the sportsmanship one seems to have a real issue with anyone who wants to stay at the lower levels. I have never understood by the horsey world is _so_ bothered by people who are happy to stay at prelim dressage, or only aim at an Intro, or be a happy hacker? Everyone in life has different ambitions and comfort levels, is that such a bad thing? Besides which those who happily potter around an intro or a pre-novice year in year out fund the upper levels of BE. 

You yourself comment on the differing levels of ambition on your yard. So what? If they're happy and the horses arn't welfare cases, is it really that much of an issue? Live and let live. The last thing anyone should ever wish on someone is to make them feel as though they should be out competing at a higher level than they're comfortable with.

Re training - that's my point. It's not nearly as accessible as it used to be so when someone eventually gets their own, they have no idea of what they could be doing or what they're meant to be doing. Maybe those on your yard haven't had the grounding you've had?
		
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I agree, teapot. The OP, in particular, was IMHO, very much in the vein of "everyone should want to do what I do.

Whilst I do agree about the standard of much of the available teaching and the RS which seem to cater for beginners only, I wonder why some people insist that their way is the only right way.

When I started riding there were several RS locally with instructors with military and hunting backgrounds, who were true horsemen and women.They have all closed or become livery only yards.  Now it seems that the very few RS that exist in the area have been set up by non-horsey parents for their daughters who have, at best, done an equine related degree after leaving school with very few GCSEs. It is pretty obvious that those daughters will only be able to cater for beginñer riders, they just don't have the experience/knowledge/skill to teach more advanced riders.

I had excellent instructors during my teenage years  (a very long time ago!) and have been fortunate enough to find others of a similar standard whilst owning my own horses BUT I am not competitive, I wish to improve my riding and my horses' way of going through my lessons. I have absolutely no desire to 'prove' my abilities to anyone else by entering any kind of competition. I am afraid that I found OP offensive and patronising.

I keep horses for relaxation, after doing a full on very stressful job. I find that the horses themselves can find enough ways to add to the stress without putting myself under pressure to arrive at a venue on time, remember a dressage test or a course of jumps, perform well and get back home safely. I shall continue to enjoy my horses in the way I prefer without feeling the need to justify my decisions to anyone else.


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## FfionWinnie (27 August 2016)

Hot to trot has hit the nail on the head (and she was probably standing on her head AND multitasking at the time so well done her!).


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## ester (27 August 2016)

I've also known plenty of amateurs, who do horses for fun have plans to do 90/100 whatever and get thwarted because something goes wrong, either physically, horse attitude or horse and rider combination. Those that seem to get the most out of it are those that accept they are doing this for fun, as time out of work, if a move up happens it happens but it isn't the end of the world if it doesn't and just to enjoy the days when it all works out, and the bits of the days when some of it does.


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## meardsall_millie (27 August 2016)

I speak as another grumpy old git, having got that way through many, many years of bitter experience and more recently some life changing events.

I could say lots about many of the views on this thread however what I will actually say is that if everyone spent a little (a lot) less time worrying about what everyone else is doing and what everyone else thinks (or probably doesn't) think about them, then the world, and in particular the horse world, would be a much nicer place.

Just go out and hug your horses, enjoy them, and do whatever the heck you want to do with them, at your own speed!


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## Sukistokes2 (27 August 2016)

^^^^^^


Hahahahahah ......... Yep


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## Irish gal (27 August 2016)

The crux here is that everyone is different and while the OP is competitive, others are not. It doesn't mean though that they are getting anything less out of their horse ownership. Finding horses for people as an agent, I often view it as finding them a 'therapist' and I get as much enjoyment at later seeing photos of them on bridle ways as the photos of the winning rosettes from others.

There's so much more to having a horse than progressing compeditively. That's fantastic but so is being in a low mood and after ten minutes of grooming finding yourself singing as the horse has magically improved how you feel. And what about the buyers who confide that their time with the horse is when they escape the husband and household and it keeps them sane

Their circle of friends might be based round the livery yard and riding is a social activity, hacking with friends. They're also out in the air and nature - what could be better!

Plus there are fantastic horse people out there, who have never competed. I'm thinking of a man I know, who is an amazing judge of a horse - he could tell you what the animal is thinking. His youngsters top the select sales like Go for Gold, and there's one he produced now jumping Nation's Cups. He knew from the beginning the horse had that potential and he was produced accordingly. That man only hunts himself.


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## milliepops (27 August 2016)

I seem to have read a different op to many people.  This   I hope PM returns to the thread at some point because I found it really interesting chewing things over. Problem is when people start to feel like they are being judged personally and then things get defensive  when it's a thread about a general topic. This is the competing and training board after all, that's what we talk about in here  I thought it was a good thought provoking thread, like the old days of hho as picked up elsewhere up the chain


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## ester (27 August 2016)

TBF I never notice which board things are on because I only ever use the new posts bit! 

I guess it is also all relative, compared to myself I would consider P+M a much more talented and able rider even if he doesn't consider himself one.


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## Sukistokes2 (27 August 2016)

My sister and I are both riders and would no doubt be poles apart in this.....as normal. 

She is working towards her first 1* and progressing up the levels doing death defying jumping and wonderful dressage......

Me I'm back in intro...


I went out to get a dressage horse.....came back with a Clydesdale with steering issues, over priced according to sister dear! As green as grass, seen nothing , done nothing but we just clicked, he made me laugh. Any thoughts of a dressage horse went flying out the window. In order to be really competitive I'd really need a more established horse. He doesn't even canter in a school yet ( cold shivers down the spin)  but I love him. I loved him from the moment he stood on tippy toes and strained to keep me in eye line as I left the dealers yard the first time I saw him. If I wanted to go up the levels it would be better if I got another horse.....NEVER!  
 Will I go up the levels, yes of course I will, how long will it take? Well it will take a long as it takes. I will focus on improving my riding around my high pressured job and on improving his way of going and of course adding steering. Am I as bad a rider as might be thought being British trained , I think so but there you go.  Do I care about haunting the lower regions of unaffiliated dressage, no not really! I will measure our progress, as small as it might be but always the plan will be to have fun ! 

You do as you see fit with your horses and I will do the same with mine. I wish every luck in all their endeavours


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## meardsall_millie (27 August 2016)

milliepops said:



			I seem to have read a different op to many people.  This   I hope PM returns to the thread at some point because I found it really interesting chewing things over. Problem is when people start to feel like they are being judged personally and then things get defensive  when it's a thread about a general topic. This is the competing and training board after all, that's what we talk about in here  I thought it was a good thought provoking thread, like the old days of hho as picked up elsewhere up the chain 

Click to expand...

Ok, it seems I need to type more!

I agree with you - to a point.  

It has been good to see a post which has sparked debate.  There have been so few for so long, I haven't even bothered to post for ages.

However, PM has presented (in my view and clearly in some other posters views) quite a belittling picture of those who are not achieving what he thinks they 'should'.  

Maybe a while ago I might have had a similar attitude but lots has happened to me recently which has really helped to shape my changed view.  In addition I've been doing lots of dressage judging in attempt to get my listing (fingers crossed - soon!) and there really is no way to describe the complete joy on some riders faces when they get to the end of their Intro test that they really have been training for, for 18 months plus.  What does is matter if it's taken that long - what does it matter if they never get there at all - what does it matter if someone else thinks it's no achievement at all because they're off trying to achieve their own heady heights?

As Horsemad12 said early on in the thread, reading comments like those from the OP could destroy someone's confidence - what right has anyone got to do that?


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## skint1 (27 August 2016)

That's a yup from me too!   Wouldn't it be boring if were were all the same? Imagine how crowded the competition venues would be as well!


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## Irish gal (27 August 2016)

I know what you're saying Millipops, it is a good thread. Here's an interesting observation from two good amateur riders, doing BE100, that recently came over looking at horses. I took them to a training show to see a horse that was of interest and competing the day they arrived.

They were blown away by the standard of the children riding and told me that this would not be seen in the UK. They said the kids were at a way higher level here and all seemed to be such good little riders. They blamed UK riding schools where they said kids are allowed now to basically do nothing thanks to health and safety rules. By contrast a lot of the kids at the training show might never have had riding lessons, they're from a rural background, taught the basics by parents and then taken out hunting where they quickly learned to stick on Clearly, that approach is working better than a decade of lessons in an uninspiring riding school!


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## rachk89 (27 August 2016)

I think it is maybe a lack of confidence? Perhaps this has been boosted from the fact that professional riders can show you what they are doing on a day to day basis now via social media, so people consider themselves to be incapable in comparison. Not blaming social media at all, but if you are watching a feed from a professional rider about how they rode 10 horses today and are competing 3 at the weekend, and then you see the won with all 3 horses, you'd feel a little inadequate in comparison when you've got a bog standard horse and a full time job stopping you riding it certain days.

I consider myself a bit competitive border-lining on stupid at times. I bought my horse when I lacked confidence in riding at all, and because of how talented he is (which has been said to me by many people so its not just my opinion) I believed we could go to high levels really quickly. Er wrong! My confidence is holding us back majorly, as well as his frequent injuries preventing me riding him, but we're hopefully getting there. I doubt we will be competing at all now even in winter this year, but hoping that from next year we will. I am refusing however to take him in Prelim dressage at all next year, we will have to start at Novice and make do. He should have been progressing to Novice by the end of this year anyway and hopefully learning Elementary, and we're not even close to that, so lots of schooling ahead for us.

Maybe I am unrealistic, and I probably am. But I am determined no matter what even if I dont compete him and even if it takes until well into his teens, but I want him to be able to do at least PSG level dressage. He is capable, I am maybe capable, so we will try. Our jumping will suffer because of my confidence though, so maybe he can just learn that with someone else.


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## hollyandivy123 (27 August 2016)

milliepops said:



			Well, yes, and from reading your 'project' thread, probably about the same kind of impressive achievement for them both.

Those kind of comments make it all worthwhile, for various reasons  don't they? A  few months ago I was stopped at the scoreboard by my judge, asking if I had 'the cob'. I said yes, wondering what was coming next... he said that was the kind of horse more people needed at this level (Novice BD at the time),that would come in and do a job without making a fuss, and consequently win the class. It was one of those days when the lovely smart WBs were all farting about being generally ridiculous. Made my heart swell with pride.
		
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love the quote from the judge, this is something i have often thought whilst watching, the BE80/90, BD novice comps etc.  I was at one yard that I soon noticed if a livery with disposable money came. They normally were on a "cob type" (I have one not knocking them) and going out competing at the middle to upper end of the local level, but having fun and improving as well through the levels. These  would soon be in the eyes of the YM, who would persuade them that they needed the next WB/competition model up to progress more. The next model would be purchased and then they seemed to get stuck, the YM team would then take over the riding, some ended up as owners with riders doing the competitions and some never seem to gain the confidence back in themselves to continue moving forward.


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## little_critter (27 August 2016)

Agree. There is a woman at the yard who winds me up by whining about how 'lucky' some people on the yard are. 
No. It's not luck, it's hard work, making sacrifices and training. Not doing just a few schooling sessions a month then blaming your lack of dressage success on the "harsh judge"


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## Micropony (27 August 2016)

Thank you PaddyMonty, this is a really interesting thread. Two years ago I would probably have been mildly offended by it, but today I am inspired by it instead.

So I rode a little bit as a child, non-horsey family etc. and we are talking a fairly rubbish local riding school. Came back to horses in my late 20s, couldn't afford to any earlier. By then I had a reasonably stressful job and was studying for a part time MBA, and thought it would be good for me to engage in some non-goal oriented activity and to do some exercise. Hah!

TBH I might as well have been starting again from scratch.

After three or four years I'd had a couple of promotions, could afford to increase from one lesson a week to a lesson and a hack.

Then I got the opportunity to ride someone's competition horses occasionally. They were fairly unsuitable  (one was fond of spending time on her back legs, and the other didn't really appreciate rein aids and much preferred to be ridden from the seat, a preference she could express in a variety of moderately hair raising ways). So possibly not ideal for someone fresh out of riding school, but I was delighted to have the opportunity, and openly admitted I had more confidence than ability, so that was all good.

Then my RS instructor introduced me to my share horse. A retired 4* TB eventer, so not exactly a dobbin, but a complete gentleman. Had a wonderful year riding him twice a week and still having weekly RS lessons. Then he moved out of the area with his lovely owner and at the grand old age of 36, I acquired my first horse. I didn't go out shopping for him, and didn't think I had the time or money to have my own, but 'would you exercise him a couple of times a week' turned into 'would you like him'.

He was, really, completely unsuitable and I was very over horsed. Once he started to get a bit fit, he let me know in no uncertain terms that I wasn't really good enough to be riding him. But he also had a range of issues that meant it was me or the glue factory, and I loved him, so I got on with it as best I could. He only caused 2 hospital visits, neither of them serious, but there were many near misses and many falls. He was too big for me (17.1 and chunky, and I am 5' 5" with stumpy legs). He was a very big moving dressage bred German warmblood who was also very unbalanced. I rode 6 times a week without fail because if I didn't he would be even spookier and more thuggish and it just wasn't fun. I had a lesson every week and really tried my best to practice my homework in between and improve. 

It was 4 years before I could canter him large round the school in sufficient balance that he wouldn't break into trot or throw in a flying change. 

By the time I'd had him for 6 years, we could ride a reasonable novice test in little fun shows at home and I felt ready to take him out in public at prelim without fear of people either laughing at us or running away in fear of being trampled by a totally out of control horse. Unfortunately he went lame the day I put the entry in, and ended up having to be PTS, so we never got to do that, but it would have made me so proud.

He taught me masses, but I had to make all my goals so small, and it took us so long to achieve each one that I got used to the idea that was normal.

Now I have a new horse who is much more suitable and straightforward and it's only now I realise how much confidence I lost in myself as a rider with my last boy. I am lucky to have a trainer who has more confidence in my riding than I do. I would still feel a bit arrogant and silly saying 'I want to ride at Medium and Foxhunter' or whatever. I still wouldn't want to go out competing at a level we're only just managing at home. I still think no rider has any right to point a horse at a fence they're not 100% committed to, especially as youngster like mine is. And I still think if you can't ride a perfect line with good corners and a good punchy balanced canter over a course of poles on the ground, you've got no business with fences.

However, reading this thread has really crystallised some thoughts for me. I can pretty much ride. I have all the skills I need to meet some realistic goals, even some that are a bit more ambitious than I might have dared set myself three months ago. And once I've met those, I will set some more. I have improved considerably since I got my first horse, so that means I can improve some more. And I am jolly well going to!


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## HotToTrot (27 August 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			Hot to trot has hit the nail on the head (and she was probably standing on her head AND multitasking at the time so well done her!).
		
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I've been there (look at my record under my maiden name - Cotes).  I've struggled at 90, at 100 (and Intermediate and Advanced!)  I'm similar to the OP in that I really wanted to event, so I made changes - changed horses, got good trainers. etc.  And then some changes were not even my decisions at all - I wouldn't have got Parrot if Vito hadn't been off games, and if I hadn't got Parrot, I wouldn't have gone Adv.  

But whilst I made some decisions and those decisions, together with circumstances falling into place, enabled me to go up the levels, it would have been just as valid - completely and utterly reasonable - of me to have decided that I didn't want to event as much as all that, and I was going to carry on doing other things instead with my horse.  That's my point.  We all want different things.


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## Frumpoon (27 August 2016)

Transport

Since the driving licences all changed and now folks are only able to drive an expensive 3.5t without doing additional expensive licences I've seen a lot less competing 

I didn't go out for years despite horse and I having moves established up to advanced medium and being more than capable of jumping courses of 1m 20 at home


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## Micropony (27 August 2016)

Frumpoon said:



			Transport

Since the driving licences all changed and now folks are only able to drive an expensive 3.5t without doing additional expensive licences I've seen a lot less competing 

I didn't go out for years despite horse and I having moves established up to advanced medium and being more than capable of jumping courses of 1m 20 at home
		
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You are very right. Going out is a much bigger deal when you're shelling out £100+ for lorry hire each time. I have just been lucky enough to get my own transport and it's amazing the difference it makes. It will be taking a long time for the novelty to wear off!


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## milliepops (27 August 2016)

Micropony said:



			You are very right. Going out is a much bigger deal when you're shelling out £100+ for lorry hire each time. I have just been lucky enough to get my own transport and it's amazing the difference it makes. It will be taking a long time for the novelty to wear off!
		
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I never had transport until last year either and agree that it changes your life a bit...  I'm doing some arena hire tomorrow which I'd have struggled to justify if I'd still been hiring. 
Going back to the OP though I don't feel that it held me back that much in training teems over the years.  I used to do a lot of work at home and then do 3 or 4 shows a year to assess progress. Much more fun these days though


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## Frumpoon (27 August 2016)

When I were a lass back in the Pliocene, most folks at the yard had or had access to a rackety Land Rover or estate and an old trailer or you could rent one easily for about £20 

It's a much bigger deal now, lots more money at stake plus the roads are such that hacking to venues is mostly out of the question


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## oldie48 (27 August 2016)

Blimey, I've read all the posts and gone from being depressed to a bit more hopeful. what is it with us "horsey people" that makes us so judgemental? After reading some of the very unkind comments on my last post (now deleted) about a friend with a badly broken collarbone, I now read a load of posts that seem rather critical of the average "leisure rider" (the clue is in the name!). I love to hear about the successes of the more competitive people, it's great to read threads from people who really "know their stuff", I've learned so much from you. I'm sad to hear of the problems that people face but see the support they get from here. What really pisses me off is the lack of understanding that we are all different and get our pleasure in a load of different ways. I'm 67, didn't own a horse until I was nearly 50 and didn't ride as a child except for a few RS lessons. I LOVE my training, the first time I did a flying change by design I had a smile on my face for a week. Do I get nervous? Bloody hell, yes but it reassures me that I'm still alive! Am I over-horsed? Yes, he's safe enough but I wouldn't take him hunting (I'd die) Is it any of your business that I should be out doing a medium test on him? ( actually, I doubt I'll ever be able to sit to his trot) No! My ambition? Well if I'm still riding him into my 70's I shall be very happy. Why is it so hard for us to just let people do what they want?


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## TheSylv007 (27 August 2016)

meardsall_millie said:



			Ok, it seems I need to type more!

I agree with you - to a point.  

It has been good to see a post which has sparked debate.  There have been so few for so long, I haven't even bothered to post for ages.

However, PM has presented (in my view and clearly in some other posters views) quite a belittling picture of those who are not achieving what he thinks they 'should'.  

Maybe a while ago I might have had a similar attitude but lots has happened to me recently which has really helped to shape my changed view.  In addition I've been doing lots of dressage judging in attempt to get my listing (fingers crossed - soon!) and there really is no way to describe the complete joy on some riders faces when they get to the end of their Intro test that they really have been training for, for 18 months plus.  What does is matter if it's taken that long - what does it matter if they never get there at all - what does it matter if someone else thinks it's no achievement at all because they're off trying to achieve their own heady heights?

As Horsemad12 said early on in the thread, reading comments like those from the OP could destroy someone's confidence - what right has anyone got to do that?
		
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Completely agree with this.  Usually really enjoy the OP's posts but the original post came across as a massive humblebrag.


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## Irish gal (27 August 2016)

Oldie fair play to you! If I can do what you're doing when I'm 67 I'll be happy indeed. It's really inspiring to read stories like that because most of us find our bottle diminishing with age, sadly, but it's a fact. So to be buying your first horse at 50 is just brilliant and to be training away heading for your seventies is inspirational. Talk about having a passion for horses...


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## daffy44 (27 August 2016)

I didnt read the OP in the same way, i think?  I never have any problem with people doing what makes them happy, whatever that is, if hacking is your thing, thats great, if you love to train but not compete, also great, we are all different, and thats a wonderful thing.

I saw the OP as musing on the people that seem dissatisfied with their lot, complain that the horse isnt good enough etc, want to do better but without the reality check of how much work it takes, that sort of thing.  

For all the aspiring people, remember every professional/experienced person was once the person starting with their first horse, everyone started somewhere.

I'm sorry some posters seem to feel defensive, no one needs to defend what they do to be happy!


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## milliepops (27 August 2016)

daffy44 said:



			I didnt read the OP in the same way, i think?  I never have any problem with people doing what makes them happy, whatever that is, if hacking is your thing, thats great, if you love to train but not compete, also great, we are all different, and thats a wonderful thing.

I saw the OP as musing on the people that seem dissatisfied with their lot, complain that the horse isnt good enough etc, want to do better but without the reality check of how much work it takes, that sort of thing.  

For all the aspiring people, remember every professional/experienced person was once the person starting with their first horse, everyone started somewhere.

I'm sorry some posters seem to feel defensive, no one needs to defend what they do to be happy!
		
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^^same


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## laura_nash (27 August 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			I firmly believe any horse(that is sound) could achieve elementary dressage, SJ to 1.10mtr and event BE100
They just need to be trained and the riders believe it is possible.
		
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As a teenager I watched a 10 year old (YO's son) having a lesson from a top show jumper.  He was riding a well bred and talented youngster but it wasn't going well and he started blaming the pony.  The instructor told the boy that up to a certain height any sound horse or pony can do it and its entirely the rider, then told him to choose a pony from the trekking centre (attached to the yard) for him to ride and they'd have a competition.  SJ'er then soundly beat him riding the slowest plod in the trekking stables, they did two perfect clear rounds and it was like seeing a different animal.  The jumps weren't massive by their standards, but they were by mine, and its always stayed with me.


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## ycbm (28 August 2016)

daffy44 said:



			I didnt read the OP in the same way, i think?  I never have any problem with people doing what makes them happy, whatever that is, if hacking is your thing, thats great, if you love to train but not compete, also great, we are all different, and thats a wonderful thing.

I saw the OP as musing on the people that seem dissatisfied with their lot, complain that the horse isnt good enough etc, want to do better but without the reality check of how much work it takes, that sort of thing.  

For all the aspiring people, remember every professional/experienced person was once the person starting with their first horse, everyone started somewhere.

I'm sorry some posters seem to feel defensive, no one needs to defend what they do to be happy!
		
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There's nothing at all in the first post about people being dissatisfied with their lot or complaining about lack of success. It's only about why people aren't achieving what he is.

This sentence at the end didn't help, either:




			I just don't understand why the horse world seems to be sinking in to mediocraty
		
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## Leg_end (28 August 2016)

At the moment I probably fit into both camps. Current horse was bought to event but was very gangly as a youngster so took my time with him and spent 18 months hacking with basic schooling. I was content in that as it was all about the long game. He then got injured but has been back for 4 years. In that time we've affiliated and evented but I've not got where I want to (1*).. Hes got all the scope but his brain needs more work and to get him to the horse I want I'd need to take him xc schooling every week which just isn't realistic time wise for me (full time job with lots of travel and I do like to spend time with my husband occasionally  ) it's not something I could do consistently and there's no point otherwise. 

I decided this year to take a year off eventing and train. Train hard. And I have but it's made no difference, when we go schooling he will wobble if I ride even slightly defensively which, when he very often stops at the last minute, is necessary for me to keep my confidence. So I made a decision that he would focus on dressage (as I hate pure SJ) and now our aims are advanced (I've just got to get into tails!). 

I am lucky that my job means I can afford another and so I'm looking for a schoolmaster to help me fulfil my aims of getting to 1*. But not everyone can do that and so sometimes you have to settle if you are unwilling to sell the horse (which I am). 

I think there are plenty of factors around why people change or lower their aims and I applaud everyone for pushing their comfort zone and doing something they've dreamt of. I make sure when I do my goals for the year that 'having fun' is number one and that should be the case for everyone. I love nothing more than galloping my donkey through the fields and do it regularly but that brings some out in a cold sweat - why should their goal not be to just have a hoon in a field with a grin on their face?!


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## oldie48 (28 August 2016)

Quote from OP "Is it a lack of rider confidence, are instructors not pushing their pupils anymore, is the pat on the back mentality we have for the slightest of success lowering expectations or do people just not want to put the effort in anymore? Have people lost sight of what can be achieved with correct training and effort? I just don't understand why the horse world seems to be sinking in to mediocraty."

Seems pretty judgemental to me but perhaps I'm just a tad too sensitive. I think the horse world is made up of lots of different people who ride for lots of different reasons and as long as their horses are well cared for then why not let them do what they want. Why OP thinks the horse world has sunk into mediocrity is beyond me. Certainly it is more accessible, more non horsey parents encourage their children to ride, more people take it up in later life and people (like me) are staying active as riders for longer. Equestrianism supports of lot of rural life these days and isn't just the privilege of the wealthy, Isn't this a good thing? I didn't ride as a child because I lived in a big city and I came from a working class family. The only horse I saw as a child belonged to the rag and boneman. Not for me (and lots of other people like me) the opportunity of joining PC and all that comes with that. The few rides I had as a child that totally captivated me were very rare treats and I feel so very lucky to have been able to have horses in later life but my goodness it's a very steep learning curve and I've sometimes felt completely out of my depth. My riding's been pretty mediocre at times though, probably still is but it's not through lack of trying or training it's basically lack of talent! PM you should be pleased there are so many of us around who are so lacking in your work ethic, drive and success, it makes you shine even more brightly!


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## Red-1 (28 August 2016)

I have been musing over this thread for a few days now. I have several thoughts...

I was once a teen with a dream to event. I was from a non horse family, not rich, not well connected. But, with determination went to an eventer, a SJ-er and a dealer, and would ride whatever. I hit the deck, not as much as I could have as I learned fast, but I was the one who would get on anything and go. I was at a fairly gung ho yard with my own horses, and we did loads of stuff, the whole yard would go out with bloodhounds, the more experienced picking the less experienced up when necessary and seeing each other home. I did team chasing, with a belly full of whisky (and I hate whisky!).

It took years to go BE, and at that time it started at PN. I bought a horse that had PN before, but had some issues, had one lesson and went. I think my determination got us round, in fact over two seasons and to Novice we never faulted XC. 

I then found good trainers, and eventually went to Intermediate and did some CCI*. 

Then, I hurt my back. It made me less resilient. I was in danger of not being able to do my job. In fact, years later it has indeed stopped me doing my job. 

My plans now? Hacking, a bit of unaffiliated, hopefully still BE90, maybe even 100. TBH I just want to enjoy my time with my horse. I guess I feel I have proved myself, whatever that means, and I am unlikely to go higher, and I am lucky to still be able to ride.

I also teach, mainly confidence clients. I did this even when I was kicking on competitively. I could see a difference in their ambitions and mine, and TBH I am happy to help with whatever. A couple of clients had owned a horse for a long time, but never got on, some others had a horse that they had not ridden in a long time. That was their ambition, to get on. I have found that they had had the help of various trainers, who concentrated on getting on. We tackled it at a more base level, learning horsemanship, from grooming, catching, leading and on to lungeing and long reining. By then mounting was just the next step, and they were skilled in their own rights, and could make sound decisions, so the transition to mounted work was easy.

So, I do get the disparity with what people want to do, and what they are doing. I do not want a return to the days of my youth and the gung ho livery yard, it was not always best for the horses. But, we certainly learned from the bareback races in the fields, the jumping higher and higher comps, the whole yard hunting. No one told us we "should not" do stuff because it was dangerous. We did it. If we got hurt we found a new way to do it. Everyone was encouraged to have a go.

I see these days people stopped by fear of getting it wrong. People scared of getting hurt. Now especially, I get that! I think that what is missing is the hanging out with horses, setting a task, and finding a way to get it right. Like riding one and leading 2 up from the field. When I was young even the local BHS approved riding school had us do this, on a 1/2 hour treck from summer grazing to the yard. So, in today's traffic this is not practicable, but it is practicable in the riding arena.

I spent almost 20 years training Police horses and riders. Those riders had to learn to be pro riders in 16 weeks, and these were people who were mature already. We also had tight health and safety, rightly so. What I did know though, was that they still had to learn horsemanship. So, we did long reining, round an obstacle course. We did ride and lead, on the school or in a field. We practised nearly losing our seats, side to side and front and back. They had a ride with no saddle, somersaulted off the horse, dismounted at trot, rode up and down hills at canter, went bank scrambling, went ditch hopping, jumped down a line of fences whilst singing and doing the actions to YMCA, rode in a group ride over rough country, went down banks so steep that the horses brace their legs and slide from top to bottom. 

These are the lost arts I think. In the days of health and safety riding seems to have been sanitised. I wholly agree with health and safety, but many people seem to have taken it that activities have been banned. I became a risk assessor just so I could "modify" the experiences to be risk assessment compliant, whilst the learners could still learn the lessons from the exercises. WE carefully went from easy to harder, and kept it within the "fun" range.

Safety is paramount, but to progress as OP says people could, that requires controlled exposure to some unpredictability. Hunting used to do that. Being a kid being daft on a horse used to do that.

As a trainer it is easier to keep people in an arena. It is clean, sanitised, easier to risk assess. It is harder to box out to a sloping field to learn to balance a horse on a hill. It is hard to find somewhere suitable for ditch hopping, and harder still to have the rider's horse trained enough to help the rider to learn. Some riders are astounded that their homework is to build up until they can stand in the stirrups, without bum touching saddle, for minutes at a time. Then go do it on a slope... It is hard to arrange a group, and to have a horse suitable to lead the group. This is the stuff that matters. This is the stuff that brings confidence in yourself and your horse, that means you overcome difficulties before they are even a difficulty, and THIS is where confidence comes from. 

Gosh, that was long.


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## milliepops (28 August 2016)

Well i guess this just shows the extent to which we all read the written word through the prism of our own experiences. I didn't read any such judgement, I read this as a genuine enquiry.

E.g.   



PaddyMonty said:



			I'm wondering if people set their expectations and goals far too low these days and why.
		
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To me this read as a theory that people may be underestimating their capabilities or potential. NOT that people *wanted* to be at the entry level of the sport forever and that was wrong or to be frowned upon






			On the flip side I see post after post about people schooling their horse for 12-18 months and feel they might be able to do an intro test soon
		
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Again this didn't read as judgemental to me or insisting people should stop what they are doing and compete at a high level immediately.  I saw this as more hinting at either a lack of confidence to *have a go* or a failure of the training system to demonstrate that this is within their grasp OR a suggestion that perhaps those people don't know how to prepare for it. The mention of wanting to do an intro test in this example would suggest that is an eventual goal so the person in question does have some kind of competition aspiration, therefore it's not a criticism of happy hackers (for want of  a better phrase) etc




			Is it a lack of rider confidence, are instructors not pushing their pupils anymore, is the pat on the back mentality we have for the slightest of success lowering expectations or do people just not want to put the effort in anymore? Have people lost sight of what can be achieved with correct training and effort? I just don't understand why the horse world seems to be sinking in to mediocraty.
		
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The stand out element here for me was a genuine set of questions not the "accusation" that others saw of mediocracy.  I know PM , like me, finds pleasure in helping other people out with their horses. It's almost a compulsion for me but I learnt a long time ago not to offer advice or help unless asked , lol!  But it does mean you can see potential improvements in results, and *most importantly * happiness and enjoyment all over the place, and it makes me wonder why people kind of accept what they've got or set limitations on their ambition when it could be better.  It's not judgey or snooty or belittling. For me it's an honest love of the sport and desire to help others get as much out of it as I do. 

God that was hard to type on phone, sorry for typos


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## D66 (28 August 2016)

Red-1 said:



			I have been musing over this thread for a few days now. I have several thoughts...

I was once a teen with a dream to event. I was from a non horse family, not rich, not well connected. But, with determination went to an eventer, a SJ-er and a dealer, and would ride whatever. I hit the deck, not as much as I could have as I learned fast, but I was the one who would get on anything and go. I was at a fairly gung ho yard with my own horses, and we did loads of stuff, the whole yard would go out with bloodhounds, the more experienced picking the less experienced up when necessary and seeing each other home. I did team chasing, with a belly full of whisky (and I hate whisky!).

It took years to go BE, and at that time it started at PN. I bought a horse that had PN before, but had some issues, had one lesson and went. I think my determination got us round, in fact over two seasons and to Novice we never faulted XC. 

I then found good trainers, and eventually went to Intermediate and did some CCI*. 

Then, I hurt my back. It made me less resilient. I was in danger of not being able to do my job. In fact, years later it has indeed stopped me doing my job. 

My plans now? Hacking, a bit of unaffiliated, hopefully still BE90, maybe even 100. TBH I just want to enjoy my time with my horse. I guess I feel I have proved myself, whatever that means, and I am unlikely to go higher, and I am lucky to still be able to ride.

I also teach, mainly confidence clients. I did this even when I was kicking on competitively. I could see a difference in their ambitions and mine, and TBH I am happy to help with whatever. A couple of clients had owned a horse for a long time, but never got on, some others had a horse that they had not ridden in a long time. That was their ambition, to get on. I have found that they had had the help of various trainers, who concentrated on getting on. We tackled it at a more base level, learning horsemanship, from grooming, catching, leading and on to lungeing and long reining. By then mounting was just the next step, and they were skilled in their own rights, and could make sound decisions, so the transition to mounted work was easy.

So, I do get the disparity with what people want to do, and what they are doing. I do not want a return to the days of my youth and the gung ho livery yard, it was not always best for the horses. But, we certainly learned from the bareback races in the fields, the jumping higher and higher comps, the whole yard hunting. No one told us we "should not" do stuff because it was dangerous. We did it. If we got hurt we found a new way to do it. Everyone was encouraged to have a go.

I see these days people stopped by fear of getting it wrong. People scared of getting hurt. Now especially, I get that! I think that what is missing is the hanging out with horses, setting a task, and finding a way to get it right. Like riding one and leading 2 up from the field. When I was young even the local BHS approved riding school had us do this, on a 1/2 hour treck from summer grazing to the yard. So, in today's traffic this is not practicable, but it is practicable in the riding arena.

I spent almost 20 years training Police horses and riders. Those riders had to learn to be pro riders in 16 weeks, and these were people who were mature already. We also had tight health and safety, rightly so. What I did know though, was that they still had to learn horsemanship. So, we did long reining, round an obstacle course. We did ride and lead, on the school or in a field. We practised nearly losing our seats, side to side and front and back. They had a ride with no saddle, somersaulted off the horse, dismounted at trot, rode up and down hills at canter, went bank scrambling, went ditch hopping, jumped down a line of fences whilst singing and doing the actions to YMCA, rode in a group ride over rough country, went down banks so steep that the horses brace their legs and slide from top to bottom. 

These are the lost arts I think. In the days of health and safety riding seems to have been sanitised. I wholly agree with health and safety, but many people seem to have taken it that activities have been banned. I became a risk assessor just so I could "modify" the experiences to be risk assessment compliant, whilst the learners could still learn the lessons from the exercises. WE carefully went from easy to harder, and kept it within the "fun" range.

Safety is paramount, but to progress as OP says people could, that requires controlled exposure to some unpredictability. Hunting used to do that. Being a kid being daft on a horse used to do that.

As a trainer it is easier to keep people in an arena. It is clean, sanitised, easier to risk assess. It is harder to box out to a sloping field to learn to balance a horse on a hill. It is hard to find somewhere suitable for ditch hopping, and harder still to have the rider's horse trained enough to help the rider to learn. Some riders are astounded that their homework is to build up until they can stand in the stirrups, without bum touching saddle, for minutes at a time. Then go do it on a slope... It is hard to arrange a group, and to have a horse suitable to lead the group. This is the stuff that matters. This is the stuff that brings confidence in yourself and your horse, that means you overcome difficulties before they are even a difficulty, and THIS is where confidence comes from. 

Gosh, that was long.
		
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very good though!  I did most of this as a kid, now, in late fifties I have a horse  that is a bit too bouncy for me but nice natured, who has had a couple of issues, and am having difficulties finding a trainer to help at my very low level.  So, Im underperforming.


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## catkin (28 August 2016)

some tangential musings:

Since when has competition been the be-all and end-all of having horses? What's wrong with having decent ponies and working hard at training for the sheer pleasure of enjoying the company of a well-schooled, well-bred horse? (oops - maybe that's what's meant by horses  'being wasted'   )

If at the end of the month I have money to either have a lesson or do a competition I now get more fun out of the lesson, as I think the ponies do too. We enjoy the odd foray to a decent show, and our strike-rate is actually quite good for the little we do because the ponies are very beautiful (heck, I keep them at home, I have to spend all day looking at them- they may as well be pretty  ) - but the thought of travelling miles to trot circles round some dull shed (aka dressage) ain't inspiring anymore.


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## scats (28 August 2016)

I was a very competitive and successful junior show jumper, but on the move up to horses my ride was injured and had to be retired.  This took me out of the game for a few years and I lost the desire to get back into it.  Branched into showing very successfully in my twenties and then I was struck down by a health issue (that had actually started when I was 11).  My health is bad enough that I find it difficult to trot around an arena once without extreme pain and fatigue (I have lupus).  I am pushing myself back into the competition world, but have decided that in reality, dressage is the only one I can truly cope with now.  Currently I cannot manage more than an intro test, and even then I suffer for days afterwards.

I found it quite hard to rock up to a venue, having been so well known as a gutsy and competitive rider locally for so many years, and now appear red-faced and in pain just doing walk and trot.  But I'm doing it.

Sometimes life doesn't give you the best, but you have to make the best of what it does give you.


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## gunnergundog (28 August 2016)

I wonder if the various views are partly a generational thing?  

I am in my sixties and when I started out I had a dream to event;  at that time the lowest affiliated level (Novice) meant that you had to be competent over 3 foot 7.  Nowadays if I wanted to start eventing I would only have to aspire to 2 foot 7.  Therefore, you don't need the same level of skill/skillset or horse power to commence eventing nowadays as you did previously.  People can therefore fulfil their ambition of saying 'I am an eventer' without having to develop to the same level.  Maybe this is the mediocrity that the OP perceives?

Society has changed too. People keep horses purely as pets nowadays - this was really not the case in my youth.  Your horse either worked in some capacity (hunting, driving, competing, down the pit) or was a broodie. The instructors I had (Dick Stilwell et al) put the fear of god up you, but they got you working and striving.  You never said no to them and if they made you cry or want to cry, you bit your lip and got on with it regardless. I see so many instructors nowadays telling their clients what they want to hear; the truth sometimes hurts though and if one of my instructors made a disparaging remark about something I did, I made doubly sure not to give them that opportunity again.   Perhaps people need to toughen up a little nowadays?  It appears everyone takes umbrage whenever possible and believes they are the beautiful princess that everyone on facebook tells them they are!     


 To those that cite the cost of lessons as an inhibitor, then earn some more money - I frequently had two or three jobs on the go at once to make ends meet.  Sell anything you have that has worth if you no longer use it/need it.  Cut back on your outgoings.  In other words make sacrifices. Good lessons always have been expensive. You can't have it all unless you are from a wealthy background, so if you want to event or whatever and are just a normal Joe Bloggs then you really have to WANT it to make it happen.  That hunger appears to be lacking nowadays.  As said above, society has changed.


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## {97702} (28 August 2016)

gunnergundog said:



			To those that cite the cost of lessons as an inhibitor, then earn some more money - I frequently had two or three jobs on the go at once to make ends meet.  Sell anything you have that has worth if you no longer use it/need it.  Cut back on your outgoings.  In other words make sacrifices. Good lessons always have been expensive. You can't have it all unless you are from a wealthy background, so if you want to event or whatever and are just a normal Joe Bloggs then you really have to WANT it to make it happen.  That hunger appears to be lacking nowadays.  As said above, society has changed.
		
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Totally agree with this!


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## Fellewell (28 August 2016)

oldie48 said:



			Blimey, I've read all the posts and gone from being depressed to a bit more hopeful. what is it with us "horsey people" that makes us so judgemental? After reading some of the very unkind comments on my last post (now deleted) about a friend with a badly broken collarbone, I now read a load of posts that seem rather critical of the average "leisure rider" (the clue is in the name!). I love to hear about the successes of the more competitive people, it's great to read threads from people who really "know their stuff", I've learned so much from you. I'm sad to hear of the problems that people face but see the support they get from here. What really pisses me off is the lack of understanding that we are all different and get our pleasure in a load of different ways. I'm 67, didn't own a horse until I was nearly 50 and didn't ride as a child except for a few RS lessons. I LOVE my training, the first time I did a flying change by design I had a smile on my face for a week. Do I get nervous? Bloody hell, yes but it reassures me that I'm still alive! Am I over-horsed? Yes, he's safe enough but I wouldn't take him hunting (I'd die) Is it any of your business that I should be out doing a medium test on him? ( actually, I doubt I'll ever be able to sit to his trot) No! My ambition? Well if I'm still riding him into my 70's I shall be very happy. Why is it so hard for us to just let people do what they want?
		
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I hope I didn't write anything unkind about your friend. Apologies if I did.

It's never a good idea to become a shining beacon of light to your fellow liveries. That kind of attitude will generally come back and bite you on the bum.

IME people who are quite accomplished don't go around telling everyone else that they're under-achieving (maybe if you pay them)As in any sport they know there is always a metaphorical brick wall waiting out there.

Next time you approach with the tack, ask your horse if he thinks he's a leisure horse. If he's ROR he probably thinks life just got a lot tougher! Reward the try, horses always give a lot more than they get, wherever they are ;-)


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## alainax (28 August 2016)

Sometimes I think it's completely the opposite! 

What's the bloody rush! 

Seems more and more often we find people going out there buying huge flashy warm bloods, completely over facing them selves. In a rush to hammer onto competitions. Then when either the horse is broke, or they are, horse gets thrown back on the pile with a whole new set of bad habits. Throw away society.

What happened to working on the basics. Both for horse and rider. Nowadays it's seems it's all about a quick fix, ram on some gadgets and crack on to the next show. Get the horse fat to win, not fit. Want to jump higher, piaffe before there is any understanding of rhythm. Slam the horses head in to some sort of position without any idea of what it is to work over the back. 

What's the bloody rush. Why force the idea that everyone should be out competing. Goals like establishing consistency, rhythm,  schwung, for a horse to be properly through should not be poo poo'd as stuff for noobs.

I would much rather see someone spend many lessons working on something as simple as rhythm than skip it all together. 

Of course, that's as generalising as it is to say that those who don't move through the levels quickly are not trying hard enough. I am sure there are many who can whizz through the levels without the need for gadgets and what not. However I don't think it is wise to further encourage the notion of rushing things.

Sometimes you are faced with a horse that you need to undo a lot of what came before in order to re establish some true foundations. To get to a point where building from there will be smooth and strong. Rushing such things is not the answer. I have a goal at the moment for consistency. Must seem very boring to many. But the feeling of riding a horse who has not long learned to use his back, becoming consistent and strong, is better than any rosette to me.


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## milliepops (28 August 2016)

Wow, not sure where anyone has said that horses should be rushed?  You'll always come unstuck sooner or later by papering over cracks,  100%  agree


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## Lexi_ (28 August 2016)

I'm an ex-riding school kid with a share horse, no transport, no money and no competitive spirit whatsoever, so probably shouldn't comment on this thread at all but there's something that's been grating on me for a while. 

I'm definitely not aiming this at anyone in particular in this thread - "you" is a shorthand for all those people I've met within eventing who have the attitude that "eventing was better back in the old days when the lowest level was Novice and all the plebs stayed at home" . It always seems to come with an inherent smugness and judgemental attitude and it saddens me. Why shouldn't the sport be more accessible and welcoming? Why is a standard from 20 years ago somehow the magical bar that should still hold today? Why are you better than someone else just because you and your horse can jump a Novice course and they can jump a 90? And basically how dare you suggest they don't deserve to be there enjoying the sport just because they don't match your level. 

I volunteer at events from 80T to 3* and it's just as much of a delight to see a child on a pony or a 60 something on a very untypical eventer popping round an 80 and looking absolutely delighted with themselves as it is to watch an Olympic eventer cruising effortlessly round a massive international course. 

Apologies if that was off topic. Needed to get it off my chest!


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## Butterbean (28 August 2016)

This has been a fascinating thread and I have to say it has really got me thinking and questioning my own approach, what I want to aim for, and what I want to get out of my training. Thank you OP!

In the last couple of years I've been lucky to have a wonderfully genuine and enthusiastic horse that has taken me to the - to me - heady heights of BE90. To me (a not particularly brave middle aged rider) this is AMAZING. A few years ago I would look at BE80 fences and wonder how anyone had the nerve to jump them. This was despite regular lessons and a horse that had competed at BE100 (with a different rider). Unfortunately as a combination that horse and I just didn't click and I don't think any amount of training would have ever got us round 1.10 sj or BE100 as was suggested in a previous post. But with my current horse .. different story. The right horse can build confidence and made BE90 feel effortless and fun.

However horse is currently recovering from injury and it will be a few months before he is fit (and no guarantee he will jump again). So I am thinking over what our aims are -  before his injury I think I had got a bit stale in my regular lessons, don't think we were really making any progress because as far as I was concerned we had already reached our pinnacle ... Now I realise this I'm going to have a good think about what I do want to achieve.


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## ycbm (28 August 2016)

To those that cite the cost of lessons as an inhibitor, then earn some more money
		
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What a lack of empathy and understanding this statement shows. You had several jobs to pay for your lessons?  Bully for you. Not everyone finds life that simple.


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## Cheiro1 (28 August 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			I see post after post about people schooling their horse for 12-18 months and feel they might be able to do an intro test soon. Taking years just to jump 70cm. Stick at the same level eventing all season, think getting over the last fence SJ is an achievement even if 6 poles have gone down during the round.

Why?
		
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Because for some of us getting round a 70cm SJ round IS a bl00dy big achievement? My own horse retired from much more than hacking years ago and I now have the ride of a saint of an ID. It's taken me 3 years to get to stage where I am jumping 70-80cms - do I think that makes me mediocre? No, I think I am bloody lucky to have had the opportunity to spend 3 years working at it! Could the horse have jumped 80cms 3 years ago - yes of course he could, but I couldn't and it took me 3 years to get there....



PaddyMonty said:



			Is the pat on the back mentality we have for the slightest of success
		
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But who are you to say that jumping 70cms is the "slightest success" to someone? I've known situations where it was a success for someone to walk one lap of an arena on their horse.....why should that be be-littled?



PaddyMonty said:



			Have people lost sight of what can be achieved with correct training and effort?
		
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Knowing what can be achieved and having any desire TO achieve things are very different things. I want to ride in top and tails one day, and I will work bloody hard to get there. I COULD aim to ride round a BE80 or jump 90cms, and both of those would be achievable with training and effort, but I have no desire to do either of those things, so why should I?!



HotToTrot said:



			Aha!  But this is an arbitrary, very personal standard.  BE90/100 is clearly well within your comfort zone, so it seems reasonable to you that everyone ought to be able to do it and it's hard to understand why something that seems easy to you is not achievable for other people.  

So, two things: 

1. As to the substance of it, whether BE90/100 is achievable for the whole world and his wife, I fink you is wrong.  I don't think that absolutely every horse and rider could do it.  BE100 fences can be big enough, if you're on a horse with limited scope, if you're prone to a wobble moment, if you've got one that says no to ditches/water/skinnies.  Where I would agree with you is that most experienced riders, who want to compete, and who have chosen a horse to compete on, should be able to do it.  But that's already quite a lot of caveats and narrows the field significantly from saying that every man and his wife should be able to do it.  

2. As to the philosophical nature of it, whether the riders "should" be setting more ambitious goals - well, if that rider is you, then clearly you should be setting yourself the goal of going BE100.  But everyone is just so, so different, and we all have wildly different goals, circumstances, abilities and ambitions.  One person's two-star can be another person's intro test.  So if it takes person 1 18 months to build up to their two star and it takes person 2 18 months to build up to their intro test, then - well done both.  Well done for doing something you love and for putting the time and commitment in to doing it and making it happen.
		
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HottoTrot always put things far more eloquently than I would ever be able.

There is also a lot of belittling on this thread about a lack of confidence. Confidence is incredibly personal, some of us are not blessed with a "gung-ho" attitude, and perhaps until you have experienced how paralysing it can be it would be best not to comment on it! I'm a nervous rider in some situations, not because I have had a bad experience, not because the tuition I have received has been poor (in fact I thank past instructors for the fact I still ride at all) just because I am. But you know what, my horses are my life despite it, for me it is a MASSIVE achievement to feel confident jumping 70cms, and yes it took 3 years on a saint of a horse. 

I don't personally give a damn what other people think of that because I know it is an achievement and so do those close to me, but there are people who would be really demoralised and demeaned to think people thought that working to achieve 70cms made them mediocre.


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## milliepops (28 August 2016)

ycbm said:



  

What a lack of empathy and understanding this statement shows. You had several jobs to pay for your lessons?  Bully for you. Not everyone finds life that simple.
		
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I don't think I'd have put it that bluntly, but what would be your solution ycbm? If riding lessons are expensive because of the cost of renting /buying facilities,  horses, insurance and paying instructors etc etc, how do you afford it other than to either earn more or make economies elsewhere? 

Some people will be priced out , doubtless. But that's life , to a point, isn't it? Inherently not fair.  I return to my yacht question. If I wanted one I'd have to get  a second or third job or else live on baked beans for several decades :lol:  not complain that it's not fair :s


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## PaddyMonty (28 August 2016)

Interesting spread of responses in this thread. Some get where I'm coming from, some sort of do and a few participate in the now 21st century national sport of taking offence despite this not being aimed at anyone specifically.

Nowhere have I said people must compete or that I look down on people competing at entry level comps. I have spent a lot of time around many different yards and see / hear the same thing all the time. People saying they would love to be able to do XYZ at some point but when questioned about what they are doing to make it happen there is rarely any concrete plan to make it happen. There are always the excuses - horse power being the primary one which is what prompted this thread about setting low expectations.
I also sail and remember what a hugely experience sailor replied when asked what the best yacht to cross the atlantic in was. He reply was "the one you currently have". This fits with horses very well also.

If people don't want to compete then fine but dont tell me that someone who is competing no matter what the level does not have a competitive nature. They do, if they didn't they wouldn't compete at all. 

It may be a generational thing. I started riding in 1964 and have seen huge changes in the horse world in the last 50 years. Some much needed, some I'm not so sure about.

So in summary. If you dont want to compete then fine. If you do want to and are not struggling with horse or rider injuries then I would just say take a honest look at whats holding you back because it probably isn't the horse in front of you.


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## PaddyMonty (28 August 2016)

milliepops said:



			I return to my yacht question. If I wanted one I'd have to get  a second or third job or else live on baked beans for several decades :lol:  not complain that it's not fair :s
		
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You can always join me for a weekend or day sail on mine. Paid for from that 60 hour week, running a crappy 13yo car and not having holidays, meals out or anything else that other folk consider normal.


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## Sussexbythesea (28 August 2016)

Irish gal said:



			I know what you're saying Millipops, it is a good thread. Here's an interesting observation from two good amateur riders, doing BE100, that recently came over looking at horses. I took them to a training show to see a horse that was of interest and competing the day they arrived.

They were blown away by the standard of the children riding and told me that this would not be seen in the UK. They said the kids were at a way higher level here and all seemed to be such good little riders. They blamed UK riding schools where they said kids are allowed now to basically do nothing thanks to health and safety rules. By contrast a lot of the kids at the training show might never have had riding lessons, they're from a rural background, taught the basics by parents and then taken out hunting where they quickly learned to stick on Clearly, that approach is working better than a decade of lessons in an uninspiring riding school!
		
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A little unfair to compare a child that probably rides less than an hour a week at a riding school with non-horsey parents to those with access to their own or friends ponies for regular riding and hunting. 

It's also much more expensive to keep horses in England certainly down South and aside from characters in Christine Pullein-Thompson pony books I don't know of any child ever being offered fantastic free riding and hunting opportunities.


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## ycbm (28 August 2016)

milliepops said:



			I don't think I'd have put it that bluntly, but what would be your solution ycbm? If riding lessons are expensive because of the cost of renting /buying facilities,  horses, insurance and paying instructors etc etc, how do you afford it other than to either earn more or make economies elsewhere? 

Some people will be priced out , doubtless. But that's life , to a point, isn't it? Inherently not fair.  I return to my yacht question. If I wanted one I'd have to get  a second or third job or else live on baked beans for several decades :lol:  not complain that it's not fair :s
		
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My solution?  Not to post a thread belittling people for not achieving what I have achieved.

Nowhere in the original post does it say anything about people complaining that they are not winning when they have not trained for it. Perhaps those people do need a kick in the pants, though really it's no ones business but their own. My own solution to those people is to ignore them.

But the original post is, pure and simple, having a pop at people for not wanting to achieve more, or not achieving it in the timescales that someone else thinks is reasonable. 

For subsequent posts to say 'just earn more if you want to succeed' is pretty  insulting to those whose circumstances or abilities simply won't allow them to do that, or people who, for example, think they should spend more time with their children than they do either with or earning money to train, their horse.

There's a horrible lot of judgemental stuff going on in this thread


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## HeresHoping (28 August 2016)

gunnergundog said:



			To those that cite the cost of lessons as an inhibitor, then earn some more money - I frequently had two or three jobs on the go at once to make ends meet.  Sell anything you have that has worth if you no longer use it/need it.  Cut back on your outgoings.  In other words make sacrifices. Good lessons always have been expensive. You can't have it all unless you are from a wealthy background, so if you want to event or whatever and are just a normal Joe Bloggs then you really have to WANT it to make it happen.  That hunger appears to be lacking nowadays.  As said above, society has changed.
		
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This has made me a little bit cross, actually. You don't know everyone's circumstances. You can't possibly order a blanket solution in such a way.

I WANT to make it happen. BUT! It's not a just case of 'earn some more money'. I work every hour I can. So does my husband. We're both self-employed because we're both victims of the last recession where redundant, 40+ with children = don't want to know. Believe me, it's not a lack of qualifications - I have an MBA (Distinction) and God knows how many marketing certificates. My husband is a commercial litigation solicitor. We should be creaming it in, huh? Well, sometimes have the odd spare £100, other months we barely scrape by. I have two children in private school for reasons I don't want to argue on here, suffice to say we were not 'welcome' at our local village school. Every spare penny goes on them. I'm not going to sacrifice their education just so I can fulfill a dream by having a few more lessons with a big instructor. A lesson is a pair of school shoes. Or 3/4 grocery my weekly grocery bill. If I took another job I'd see neither my horse nor my children. 

Okay. So that got a little personal. But many are probably in the same boat. I got where PM was coming from. This I can't believe anyone is so introspective as to think it's a solution. I managed lessons once per fortnight with my last instructor because I had skills I could offer her in return. So far up here, I don't think I can offer the same. The instructor I have now has it licked. I can afford a lesson once per every 4 weeks if I'm lucky. And I hawk my horse out a couple of times a week to afford them, then. But then again I'm also an experienced rider so can work on the instruction. I've reread most of this thread. Those citing cost of lessons as an inhibitor are few and far between and it's not a single contributing factor.


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## ycbm (28 August 2016)

If people don't want to compete then fine but dont tell me that someone who is competing no matter what the level does not have a competitive nature. They do, if they didn't they wouldn't compete at all.
		
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PM will you please stop making these generalised judgments based on how you yourself feel?

I often compete to train young horses. I often compete for a day out at a place with a great cafe. I often compete to make me focus on something to train for at home. I often compete because a friend is going.

In these situations 'compete' to me means only 'enter a competition' and 'winning' can be as little as 'the horse loaded, didn't dump me, and we both came home safe'.


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## PaddyMonty (28 August 2016)

Cheiro1 said:



			No, I think I am bloody lucky to have had the opportunity to spend 3 years working at it! Could the horse have jumped 80cms 3 years ago - yes of course he could, but I couldn't and it took me 3 years to get there....
		
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Do you mind me asking why it took you three years? Genuinely interested. No problem if you'd rather not discuss.

Just for the record I stand firmly by my statement about horse world decending in to mediocraty.  
20 years ago at a local show classes would start at 2 foot and finish at 3'6". There would be almost as many in the 3'6" as the the 2'0". These days the classes start at 1'0" and huge numbers of entries and people still cant get round the class. Come the 2'9" there are perhaps 6 people in it. The 3'3" is often cancelled due to lack of entries. Sponsored rides used to be 20 MILES. Now they are 5 or 10km
It seems the main objective is to allow people to say they do something without putting in any real effort. JMHO


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## PaddyMonty (28 August 2016)

ycbm said:



			PM will you please stop making these generalised judgments based on how you yourself feel?
		
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YCBM - are you not doing the very same thing?


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## ycbm (28 August 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			Do you mind saying why it took you three years? Genuinely interested. No problem if you'd rather not discuss.

Just for the record I stand firmly by my statement about horse world decending in to mediocraty.  
20 years ago at a local show classes would start at 2 foot and finish at 3'6". There would be almost as many in the 3'6" as the the 2'0". These days the classes start at 1'0" and huge numbers of entries and people still cant get round the class. Come the 2'9" there are perhaps 6 people in it. The 3'3" is often cancelled due to lack of entries. Sponsored rides used to be 20 MILES. Now they are 5 or 10km
It seems the main objective is to allow people to say they do something without putting in any real effort. JMHO
		
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Twenty years ago only the very top competed affiliated. Now those people jumping the high local classes are affiliated and local shows have dropped the higher class due to lack of demand and put tiny stuff in to recover their entries to make a show worth running financially.

Twenty years ago I could do eight good standard local one day events at 2ft 6 within an hour drive. Now there are two and the course has been cut in half by an airport expansion so it's not worth doing. Mostly because BE brought in BE 80.

You're opinion sounds anything but humble to me!


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## ycbm (28 August 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			YCBM - are you not doing the very same thing?
		
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No.


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## PaddyMonty (28 August 2016)

Really, so you honestly believe your statement is far more valid than mine. Says a lot.


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## ycbm (28 August 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			Really, so you honestly believe your statement is far more valid than mine. Says a lot.
		
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If by 'valid'  you mean correct, how can it not be?

You said everyone who competes is competitive. I said not everyone is, because I for one am often not, so that has (by definition)  to be true even if I am the only one, which I think is unlikely.

 I did not say that no-one is competitive because clearly, that would be as incorrect as you saying that everyone is.


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## Cheiro1 (28 August 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			Do you mind me asking why it took you three years? Genuinely interested. No problem if you'd rather not discuss.
		
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Ever since I learnt to ride jumping has scared me, it just does. Couldn't tell you why. 3 years ago the thought of trotting round the 1ft class at a local show would have made me feel sick (and the horse is a saint and would take me clear round a 90cm if I so desired). It's taken 3 years of forcing myself to go out and enter SJ competitions (starting at 2ft and working up slowly) to get to a stage where I have now done a few 70cm ODEs and will enter 80cm SJ classes.

I'm one of these people who, if you force me to do something, it will just make me even more terrified next time, it has to be my decision to try something/do something. 

It's not because I don't want to, it just takes time and I'd rather take that time and be solid when I do it than enter something I am not ready for, have a wobble, cause an issue and then start right back at square 1.


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## Tiddlypom (28 August 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			If people don't want to compete then fine but dont tell me that someone who is competing no matter what the level does not have a competitive nature. They do, if they didn't they wouldn't compete at all.
		
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Not so. 

I used to compete to a decent standard, but it was never about the winning. It was about the training and the partnership with the horse.

Relentlessly competitive types can be very wearing for us less driven types, I learnt to avoid them. Didn't stop me putting in loads of graft to get my ex RC cob to BD medium plus teams, RC nationals etc etc.


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## PaddyMonty (28 August 2016)

Tiddlypom said:



			Not so. 

I used to compete to a decent standard, but it was never about the winning. It was about the training and the partnership with the horse.
		
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So why did you compete? Genuine question.


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## Tiddlypom (28 August 2016)

To give me the kick up the @rse I needed to put the work in to be ready for the competitions,  but I always preferred the training at home to the competing.


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## PaddyMonty (28 August 2016)

Cheiro1 - Thanks for the response. Can I ask if you had an instructor helping you and if so how often and how experienced were they?


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## PaddyMonty (28 August 2016)

Tiddlypom said:



			To give me the kick up the @rse I needed to put the work in to be ready for the competitions,  but I always preferred the training at home to the competing.
		
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So if it didn't matter how you did at the comp what did you need to be ready for. All a competition does is test one horses and riders ability against a group of peers. The skill of the trainer for both horse and rider playing a large part. Surely you were testing your training against others? ie competing.


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## ester (28 August 2016)

The low level unaff competing I have done and my mum did was as much for the day out socialising as the competition, an for the odd people to say how lovely your pony was! Which was handy on the days things went a bit awry. It had very little to do with any competitive nature or ambitions.
Also you say about people saying they would love to be able to do XYZ and it is your belief that they could if they worked hard enough at it. Have you ever asked them why they aren't aiming for it right now?


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## ycbm (28 August 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			So if it didn't matter how you did at the comp what did you need to be ready for. All a competition does is test one horses and riders ability against a group of peers. The skill of the trainer for both horse and rider playing a large part. Surely you were testing your training against others? ie competing.
		
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No that's not all that a competition does. Did you read my list of why I compete?  Other people earlier on the thread have talked about dressage as being mainly a competition with yourself against your previous performances.

I'm currently training a young cob to go out at medium. Will he be placed? Unlikely, and if he is it will only be because better people haven't turned up. Do I care? Not one bit. Why am I going? For the day out with my OH, for the cafe (which is scrummy and run by friends who deserve the trade), so that I have some incentive to train at the level he's training at (but not ready to win at) at home, and because I'm bored witless with decades of prelims to elementary so I don't want to do what he could win at.

We simply aren't all wired to be highly competitive like you PM.


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## oldie48 (28 August 2016)

Fellewell said:



			I hope I didn't write anything unkind about your friend. Apologies if I did.
Gosh, no! the person who suggested she should buy a fat ploddy cob annoyed me as friend competes at eventing and SJ at a grassroots level with some success, sadly her current horse needs to step down and friend is keen to step up a level. Also the person who suggested she couldn't sit a buck was way off mark, she may be in her 50's but she's not a novice happy hacker! She just hasn't to date bought on a youngster but she needs a reasonable competition horse to  further her ambitions and like so many people, money is an issue, hence looking at a youngster.
		
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## ester (28 August 2016)

P+M I have a query, I'm pondering how your competitiveness goes with not having your own horse and whether that perhaps means that you have a different outlook to those of us that do have our horses just for the sake of having them, keen to improve them but sometimes just from the point of view of keeping them well muscled and moving healthily and staying sound.


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## teapot (28 August 2016)

milliepops said:



			Some people will be priced out , doubtless. But that's life , to a point, isn't it? Inherently not fair.  I return to my yacht question. If I wanted one I'd have to get  a second or third job or else live on baked beans for several decades :lol:  not complain that it's not fair :s
		
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You could still go sailing at your local club though - you're not priced out of the hobby, you're priced out of having your own yacht. In the same way you don't need your own horse to ride.

I genuinely only mentioned the lesson costs because I think it's one of the reasons behind the so called increase in mediocrity. £73 is a lot of money for some people. (Those who don't think it is need a reality check). Some cannot afford to pay that sort of money for a lesson, however hard they work, so they look at other options, cheaper options, where the mediocrity is freely available (£15 for thirty minutes or whatever it is) and that starts the vicious cycle of potentially never improving or knowing about how much there is to gain from an equestrian hobby. 

That I find sad because the gap between the cost of good training and the cost of mediocre/rubbish training is getting ever wider. That isn't good for the sport as a whole imho.


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## milliepops (28 August 2016)

teapot said:



			You could still go sailing at your local club though - you're not priced out of the hobby, you're priced out of having your own yacht. In the same way you don't need your own horse to ride. 

I generally only mentioned the lesson costs because I think it's one of the reasons behind the so called increase in mediocrity. £73 is a lot of money for some people. Some cannot afford to pay that sort of money for a lesson, however hard they work. So they look at other options, cheaper options, where the mediocrity is freely available (£15 for thirty minutes or whatever it is) and that starts the vicious cycle of potentially never improving or knowing about how much there is to gain from an equestrian hobby. 

That I find sad because the gap between the cost of good training and the cost of mediocre/rubbish training is getting ever wider. That isn't good for the sport as a whole imho.
		
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I'd consider myself priced out, because running my horses absorbs all my cash so there is none spare for anything else  Same as PM mentioned earlier, he runs his hobbies by not having new cars or holidays or eating out - it's all priorities.  
Speaking of which, PM, it's  a kind offer, but tbh I'd begrudge the time away from the steeds, lol!

I do think there is great training out there for a reasonable price though. Look at the cost of lessons thread, it's bumping around somewhere on this page. Mine is the most expensive so far, *ARGH* but worth making sacrifices elsewhere to me and the quality is such that we don't go very often, getting plenty of homework done in between sessions.  But many other posters had lots of positive things to say about some very high level trainers, at a much more affordable level. I know several local pros around me that teach for a great price and who get good results for their students.  

I think the riding school element is related but it's a slight departure from the OP IMO, though I agree it's a terrible shame that some people aren't getting what they should do from them.


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## oldie48 (28 August 2016)

ycbm said:



			No that's not all that a competition does. Did you read my list of why I compete?  Other people earlier on the thread have talked about dressage as being mainly a competition with yourself against your previous performances.
		
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Totally agree with this. I did a regular monthly test riding clinic today with a list 1 judge and if I repeat a test I like to compare sheets to see what I've improved on etc. Disappointed today as I dropped 1%, horse gave me a perfect FC but sadly it was not required and our free walk was pants again! Actually, I'd quite like to compete him but he's funny in the warm up, our centres get very busy and let's be honest not all riders are that careful and I don't bounce these days. However, it's no big deal as I enjoy the training and riding so much it really doesn't matter.


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## ester (28 August 2016)

but the thing is on the money thing that people could work hard and do without holidays, meals out etc and choose to have a horse with few major competitive ambitions because they can't afford the extra training but appreciate all the other things that their horse brings them as friend, therapist, reason to be out in the countryside etc. That doesn't mean they won't occasionally enjoy competing at a lower level, or that they don't wish they could afford to do a bit more but that their other responsibilities have to come before that wish.


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## McFluff (28 August 2016)

ycbm said:



			In these situations 'compete' to me means only 'enter a competition' and 'winning' can be as little as 'the horse loaded, didn't dump me, and we both came home safe'.
		
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You mean that isn't the definition of winning?!? &#128540;
It is for me


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## milliepops (28 August 2016)

ester said:



			but the thing is on the money thing that people could work hard and do without holidays, meals out etc and choose to have a horse with few major competitive ambitions because they can't afford the extra training but appreciate all the other things that their horse brings them as friend, therapist, reason to be out in the countryside etc. That doesn't mean they won't occasionally enjoy competing at a lower level, or that they don't wish they could afford to do a bit more but that their other responsibilities have to come before that wish.
		
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totally agree, ester, but I thought PM had stated that those weren't really the people he had in mind when starting this thread.  post #123


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## ycbm (28 August 2016)

McFluff said:



			You mean that isn't the definition of winning?!? &#55357;&#56860;
It is for me 

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Depends which of my two horses I'm on


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## ester (28 August 2016)

milliepops said:



			totally agree, ester, but I thought PM had stated that those weren't really the people he had in mind when starting this thread.  post #123
		
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No that was more in response to the people mentioning you just save for more training . 

I am wondering though whether P+M has asked those he has come across that say they would love to do XYZ why they aren't doing it, as I am pretty sure they likely have their valid reasons.


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## Regandal (28 August 2016)

I agree with PM about one thing. The standard of instruction around my area is not mediocre,  it is dire. The worst part is that the riders don't seem to realise how awful it is. 
Another friend was given two blocks of lessons at a very prestigious equestrian centre as a gift. Twenty lessons.  She was no further forward at the end of them. She did suspect 'they're just telling me what I want to hear. Not pushing me'. Waste of time and money.


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## Cheiro1 (28 August 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			Cheiro1 - Thanks for the response. Can I ask if you had an instructor helping you and if so how often and how experienced were they?
		
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A few over the years, all at least BHSI and certainly qualified by experience, although not as regularly as I'd like for a vast number of un-avoidable reasons.

Interestingly the person who's boosted me the most with my jumping recently has been my dressage trainer in the last 6 months, who has moved away from working on HOW we jump and is instead forcing me to analyse how I THINK about jumping and then we break that down into logical chunks and work around them  He'll say to me "OK, but why do you say X, Y and Z" or "OK, but why do you think that" and then we discuss.

On an unrelated point - re the going to competitions to compete - I go SJing with the aim of getting round, I take all the long routes and just focus on getting a nice round. Occasionally recently in the small classes I've turned a bit tighter but for the most part I certainly don't "compete" - I'm normally a minute slower than anyone who gets placed!


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## spacefaer (28 August 2016)

I was musing on this thread while riding this morning.  

I think part of the answer to PM's original question is courage.  

It doesn't matter what level someone is riding at, but to do more, to push themselves further, whether at home or in competition, takes courage .

Yes, time, money, talent, ambition all also play a part, but for the person who took 3 years to jump 70cm - that took courage.  

I think riding IS more accessible than it used to be and more people are taking it up who might well have been daunted in the past - the reduction of jump sizes etc has made jumping smaller fences more acceptable and so more people are giving it a go.  Takes courage to get on a horse for the first time, takes courage to get back on after the first (or hundredth) fall.  

Takes courage to push out of the comfort zone - it's the saying "feel the fear - and do it anyway! "


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## nikkimariet (28 August 2016)

Not sure... Last year was meant to be my Advanced debut with Fig. Neither of us were ready. The changes were too fragile and I wasn't able to help him enough.

I suppose this year you could argue we weren't really ready either, but we were more ready than before lol so ***** it life is too short. We had a bash. Bloody wicked score and now competing fairly competently at PSG.

Is the work perfect? Nope. But then I could take him round a prelim and still get a shoddy mark for screwing up a transition cause well that's life...

Experience counts for so much and you have to (and need to) be able to integrate that into their training as a whole. There's no point being able to ride a test perfectly at home if your competition nerves are shot and your horse is a spooky **** that will down tools as soon as it hears a tannoy or sees a flag etc. Get out there and have a go!!!

Of course, with XC (and SJ to a point) if you get it wrong at a certain height or speed it does indeed go very badly wrong. Luckily the worst that will happen for me is a rubbish score!


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## LittleRooketRider (28 August 2016)

A thought provoking thread... This could be long....

I have always been one to strive for progression & to achieve goals, particularly when riding. I'm competitive & could be considered a bold rider.... Probably just a nutter.
I always felt that to do my horse/pony justice I had to believe in them & put the hours & focus in...
This led to/ resulted in my most amazing homebred pony, just 13'2, we grew up together, I broke her in & produced her to PC championships & every jumping final/championship I knew of ( up to & including 1.10m). We hunted with the BV & Cattistock... And I'd be damned if my pride & joy was going to be outdone by those who turned their nose up at her ( on account of her size). We flew whatever was in front of us be it a a 6ft hedge, timber , SJ, XC etc. To this day I am convinced this confidence is because I believed unwaveringly in her & I guess or at least like to think she had some shred of belief in me.

A lot of new people I know (not all) either don't want to spend the money, buy something cheap, minimal if any instruction & think they know it all when they win the local 70 Or, they splash out big time on an inappropriate but flashy, proven bloodlines, guaranteed to win yaddayaddd yadda... & are therefore by rites an expert.

Just my musings as they popped in to my head


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## LittleRooketRider (28 August 2016)

LittleRooketRider said:



			A thought provoking thread... This could be long....

I have always been one to strive for progression & to achieve goals, particularly when riding. I'm competitive & could be considered a bold rider.... Probably just a nutter.
I always felt that to do my horse/pony justice I had to believe in them & put the hours & focus in...
This led to/ resulted in my most amazing homebred pony, just 13'2, we grew up together, I broke her in & produced her to PC championships & every jumping final/championship I knew of ( up to & including 1.10m). We hunted with the BV & Cattistock... And I'd be damned if my pride & joy was going to be outdone by those who turned their nose up at her ( on account of her size). We flew whatever was in front of us be it a a 6ft hedge, timber , SJ, XC etc. To this day I am convinced this confidence is because I believed unwaveringly in her & I guess or at least like to think she had some shred of belief in me.

A lot of new people I know (not all) either don't want to spend the money, buy something cheap, minimal if any instruction & think they know it all when they win the local 70 Or, they splash out big time on an inappropriate but flashy, proven bloodlines, guaranteed to win yaddayaddd yadda... & are therefore by rites an expert.

Just my musings as they popped in to my head
		
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Just to add.... I realise I've gone off on a tangent here....& to clarify I do not think all l beginners are disaster, it's just a recurring theme I've noticed over the last couple of years. 

Beginners should always be encouraged, all achievements ( be that 4* completion or getting over a fear of jumping or even getting back in the saddle) should be recognised, & I should really learn to not type out long posts on my phone! It's painfully slow!!&#128514;


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## pennandh (29 August 2016)

I'm going to stick my hand up now and admit to being someone who competes rather a way below what I'm probably technically capable of.

A big part of it is probably that I'm not the world's bravest rider. I can't fault the instruction I've had; nor could I really be described as overhorsed (I'm 5'7" and I've shared a 13.1hh Highland with my sisters for the last 11 years).

My confidence is actually much better since I had some instruction in both jousting and stunt-riding a few years back, but I still don't like to jump more than 2'9" without a side-saddle (in which I've successfully cleared 4' by accident and am therefore less fussed by slightly bigger jumps), and I've never really got around to doing more than Prelim dressage, despite the fact that both my steed and I are apparently perfectly capable of at least Elementary if I could summon up the nerve.

To be honest, my bravery-increasing plan at the moment consists of hopefully going out for a few half-days with the non-jumping pack of one of my local hunts next season (provided pony and I are both sufficiently fit and sound), and maybe trying an unaffiliated Novice test or two over the winter. Not terribly ambitious, perhaps, but if it goes well we can use it as a springboard to greater things. Little steps.


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## Curly_Feather (29 August 2016)

I've really enjoyed the thoughtful replies to this thread, great topic!

I know quite a few people who would love to do better / more, especially in dressage. But they struggle to get there. A lot of it seems to be based on the fear of not being perfect, and the fear that other people will be watching and judging. To some degree, we all probably dread other people judging us, but as Nikki Mariet says:




			Get out there and have a go!
		
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## Lexi_ (29 August 2016)

I've been musing over this as well...

In a sport like running, (which has some parallels to, say, dressage, in the sense that it's much more popular at the lower levels than it used to be and that you can train by yourself and then go to comps to get an official time/score), people are quite happy doing Parkruns and 5/10ks and gradually working on improving their own time. Not everyone wants to go on and run a full or half marathon but there's plenty of support and encouragement for those who are happy sticking at the lower level. Does anyone say to them "oh all humans are capable of running a half marathon - challenge yourself a bit more"? 

Obviously it's a bit of comparing apples with oranges but it's something I've been pondering.


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## Lucyad (29 August 2016)

Interesting thread, though provoking....
I used to be more competitive, bought a young horse, enjoyed the feeling of 'progressing' from lots of lessons, working towards (riding club level) competitions, and hoped to BE one day (just at low levels, he is half Clydesdale and no Mulry's Error).  Horse was diagnosed with bone spavin years ago, and I decided not to push things, I would rather have him sound for a long time.  We therefore haven't got any more accomplished for the last..errr..7 or so years! (often getting worse instead ). However we have had great fun in our 11 years together. And he could BE 80 and prob 90 even with his creaky legs...but as we aren't going to progress significantly, I guess I just thought it would be more fun (and cheaper) just to do unaffiliated (and preferably not all on 1 day, as that is a bit of a slog). I keep the mileage low and prioritise what we enjoy the most (hunting). I do enjoy lessons and the odd SJ and XC, but we are always there just to have fun. And it leaves me time and energy to do more with my family (and daughter who is ironically now super competitive on her pony!).


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## {97702} (29 August 2016)

I honestly don't know what the answer is for me.  I have been riding for 25 years and I have made sure I have had regular tuition from well qualified and experienced instructors during that time, but to my mind I really don't seem to improve hugely.

If you can suggest why this might be PM I would be very interested (seriously, not being funny or taking offence!) - it is something I really want to be good at, but even though I have great instructors it doesn't seem to work for me.  I have been told I try too hard....perhaps in the past I haven't had the best horses.... but that shouldn't really be an excuse.  I would hope I try hard enough, I really don't expect it to happen without some serious hard work!


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## VRIN (29 August 2016)

Lévrier;13353580 said:
			
		


			I honestly don't know what the answer is for me.  I have been riding for 25 years and I have made sure I have had regular tuition from well qualified and experienced instructors during that time, but to my mind I really don't seem to improve hugely.

If you can suggest why this might be PM I would be very interested (seriously, not being funny or taking offence!) - it is something I really want to be good at, but even though I have great instructors it doesn't seem to work for me.  I have been told I try too hard....perhaps in the past I haven't had the best horses.... but that shouldn't really be an excuse.  I would hope I try hard enough, I really don't expect it to happen without some serious hard work!
		
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Now here's something I can empathise with!! I shall await the replies with interest!

However just to add a different thought stream..
Prompted by the Olympics and the discussions about what makes a champion I have given much thought to the idea that top athletes (regardless of discipline) are resilient and use failure as a motivator .. For most of us the fear of failure is what prevents us from achieving things that we dream of. A top athlete is not afraid to fail.
Today I so nearly talked myself out of entering a competition .. (hot to trot would talk about the monkey on your back!!) thinking about this thread and my olympic musings I thought .. what was the worse that could happen - I could fail (had me heading back to the lorry !!) but then I thought what if I didn't fail .. (seems quite a simple discussion with self but proved quite a dilemma) However to cut a long story short ..  i went for it... and DID IT! Yeh!! 
Maybe the 'monkey on your back' that fear of failure is the thing that stops us ... 

Just a thought


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## daffy44 (29 August 2016)

Levrier, thats a good question, I dont know you well enough to be sure of the answer, but I can try some suggestions?  I think VRIN has a really good point, fear of failure is a huge inhibitor, and there is a big difference between not being well prepared, and just being too worried to try.  I was teaching a client at the weekend who is competing at RC Prelim dressage, I asked her if she had done a Novice yet, and she said no she couldnt, she wasnt good enough.  I asked her if she had read through some novice tests, so she had a good idea of the requirements, and she said she had.  I then asked her if she had read anything she felt she couldnt ride, she said no, every test she had read she thought she could ride everything required, so then I asked what the problem was, and she said she just wasnt good enough.  She is certainly good enough for unaff RC Novice, but this is a common attitude, a combination of a lack of confidence and fear of failure, and such a shame if it stops people from doing something they want.

Levrier, I think there can be several reasons why people dont achieve things, firstly I think focus and clarity are very important, I totally accept you try and work hard, but do you have short and long term goals?  Do you have a simple step by step plan to help you achieve the goals?  A vague, unfocussed idea of what you want to achieve is rarely enough.  When you train your horse do you have a plan for your schooling sessions?  I could go on, but I hope those are good questions to start with.


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## Cortez (29 August 2016)

I think the reason why people don't achieve things is because they are afraid to even try. Most people have never ridden or trained a piaffe, or a flying change: how many have tried to do one? If you don't ask, you don't get. Doesn't matter if you do it wrong, just ask and see what happens. I trained my first horse to piaffe when I was 12, because I had seen it in a film about the Spanish Riding School - never seen a real horse do it, had no clue. But I asked, and asked and did it wrong 100 times, and then one day it happened, the horse got it, I got it and I had a piaffing horse (which, I can tell you, was a really big deal in 1970's Ireland!).


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## daffy44 (29 August 2016)

Totally agree Cortez!  People are so often afraid to try new things for fear of getting it wrong, and also afraid to make mistakes in general training too, if you dont make mistakes you dont learn.  Training is the time to try new things and get things wrong, it doesnt matter, of course, if you try something and your horse gets very distressed, then stop, but never be afraid to try.


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## spacefaer (29 August 2016)

Thinking about Levrier's post ...... (and not aimed at you specifically Levrier) 

It's hard to improve if you don't know what you are aiming for

If you are trying to teach a horse half pass, and you have never ridden half pass, how do you know when you have got it right? Or any other movement, that you haven't ridden before?

In a perfect world, it would be great if we could all ride, if only once, a horse that can show us what we should be doing and feeling so that we can replicate with our own horses..... I was lucky enough to ride some amazing horses in my youth with some inspirational trainers, and can now reproduce from memory, that "feel" of what I'm trying to ask the horse to do.

I think sometimes, people don't realise how attainable goals can be, because they have no idea of how to get there, from where they are.


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## milliepops (29 August 2016)

spacefaer said:



			If you are trying to teach a horse half pass, and you have never ridden half pass, how do you know when you have got it right? Or any other movement, that you haven't ridden before?

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Ask someone. Or, these days, video it and learn how to be a bit self critical. I'd never ridden half pass when  I taught my first horse to do it, or at least some approximation. But I'd watched a lot of other people half passing, read some books and just had a go. We went sideways bent in the direction of travel. Was it perfect? Nope, but it was a start and then I had something to build on. 

I'm in the 'have a go' camp too. I've got one very forgiving horse who.has never begrudged my amateurish attempts to learn to ride. I've made mistakes and learnt a lot. If you can imagine how something should feel, you can probably get halfway there by yourself IME.  Does require a thinking rider though, granted.


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## daffy44 (29 August 2016)

If you want to teach half pass and you dont know how, ask your trainer!!!  And do as Milliepops said, think about it, try it, see what happens.


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## gunnergundog (30 August 2016)

spacefaer said:



			If you are trying to teach a horse half pass, and you have never ridden half pass, how do you know when you have got it right? Or any other movement, that you haven't ridden before?..........

.......I think sometimes, people don't realise how attainable goals can be, because they have no idea of how to get there, from where they are.
		
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True...........however, I remember attempting many movements for the first time almost literally with Alois Podhajsky's book Complete Training of Horse & Rider in hand!  There were some great books around with a wealth of information in all disciplines.  They may be old but I do wish people would have a dig through them - lots to learn.


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## ester (30 August 2016)

I think you can teach a horse things you don't know about, it just takes longer than if you have been there before. 
However I also had a bit of a revelation that I wasn't doing some things quite correctly with regards to bend etc when I got the chance to sit on one that had been trained more correctly and less by trial and error  what it needed to feel like was a bit different to what it needed to look like. Poor F got a bit of a shock when I came back from that trip! 

We cracked half pass right recently, half pass left I said to my trainer I'm doing something wrong, it might not be you he said , he didn't stick with that line very long .


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## RunToEarth (30 August 2016)

Cortez said:



			I think the reason why people don't achieve things is because they are afraid to even try. Most people have never ridden or trained a piaffe, or a flying change: how many have tried to do one? If you don't ask, you don't get. Doesn't matter if you do it wrong, just ask and see what happens. I trained my first horse to piaffe when I was 12, because I had seen it in a film about the Spanish Riding School - never seen a real horse do it, had no clue. But I asked, and asked and did it wrong 100 times, and then one day it happened, the horse got it, I got it and I had a piaffing horse (which, I can tell you, was a really big deal in 1970's Ireland!).
		
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And going on from there - those of us that are lucky enough to be at home. I can try all kinds of things, I can ****** about and practice and muck about literally to my heart's content. I don't have an arena rota, a livery yard lights out time, or the inevitable livery yard bitch watching me muck stuff up and then telling everyone, or writing it on facebook. Practicing is a lot easier by yourself or with an instructor than it is with other people watching.


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## {97702} (30 August 2016)

some really interesting observations which have been really helpful - thanks very much all &#128522;&#128522;

I hear what you are all saying about not having to have experienced something to try to do it, and I do agree with you,  but I think it was you Milliepops (and apologies if I have got this wrong!) who said that you persevered with one horse after you recognised that one moment of 'lift' or similar that you knew from experience gave promise of more to come? How would I recognise that feeling if I had never experienced it?

I really identitied with the suggestion about a lack of focus and clarity and I think that is where I go wrong sometimes (a lot of the time?) - I don't have a plan on how I'm going to move on to the next step. For example my baby sports cob came to me at the end of May totally unbalanced and totally unable to canter in the school. Now we achieve correct canter strike off on pretty much every occasion and can maintain the pace without excessive rushing (but without much balance or the correct bend!) What I hadn't mentally planned for was what I would do when I reached that point. Instead of sitting on the horse thinking 'wow canter on the correct lead again, awesome' I should have been thinking about improving the canter balance through transitions etc! 

I've realised I have to go away and reflect now about what I really want out of this exorbitantly expensive hobby - and if I feel I have unfulfilled goals then I need to work out how to achieve them...


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## milliepops (30 August 2016)

Lévrier;13354254 said:
			
		


			I hear what you are all saying about not having to have experienced something to try to do it, and I do agree with you,  but I think it was you Milliepops (and apologies if I have got this wrong!) who said that you persevered with one horse after you recognised that one moment of 'lift' or similar that you knew from experience gave promise of more to come? How would I recognise that feeling if I had never experienced it?
		
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yes it was me, though I think it was a 'wow' moment, lol!





			I really identitied with the suggestion about a lack of focus and clarity and I think that is where I go wrong sometimes (a lot of the time?) - I don't have a plan on how I'm going to move on to the next step. For example my baby sports cob came to me at the end of May totally unbalanced and totally unable to canter in the school. Now we achieve correct canter strike off on pretty much every occasion and can maintain the pace without excessive rushing (but without much balance or the correct bend!) What I hadn't mentally planned for was what I would do when I reached that point. Instead of sitting on the horse thinking 'wow canter on the correct lead again, awesome' I should have been thinking about improving the canter balance through transitions etc! 

I've realised I have to *go away and reflect now *about what I really want out of this exorbitantly expensive hobby - and if I feel I have unfulfilled goals then I need to work out how to achieve them...
		
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Honestly, and I do mean this in the nicest possible way, because I've been following the fun you've been having on J and your desire to get better and better just oozes out of your posts. 

I think reflection, thinking and calm analysis in and out of the saddle is what makes the difference between someone who may ride well with direction from an instructor there at the time, and someone who can train themselves in the interim.

I absolutely eat, sleep and breathe training my horses. It's where my mind goes in quiet moments. I'll think over a session for some days later, wondering whether I did something right, wrong, should I try x, y or z next. 

I know the moment that I started to really improve as a rider and it was when I started to be able to be usefully self critical - rather than just say 'oh I'm rubbish' or whatever. I had to develop the ability to put vanity and fear of failure aside, lose the ego, and be able to be more objective. Be fair on yourself, accept that you aren't going to be a worldbeater tomorrow but what you can do is pick apart the weak areas and work on them systematically. It's easy to be impatient, much harder to just calmly press on with a kind of plan, but be able to deviate from it without getting frustrated. 

I read an article on riding which is extremely long but absolutely struck a nerve with me about how riding is like a spiritual journey for me. http://www.artisticdressage.com/articles/hurts.html
 Not everyone would enjoy this kind of riding because it's not fun or exciting, but it is extremely rewarding and gives you the tools to find your way even when you are a bit stuck and with no one to ask. (yes, I'm on the yard with the happy hackers and I'm the only one who wants to try and compete at affiliated level, someone had a dig about that up thread but it's a weird position to be in  )

Right, that was an odd diversion - but it does come back to your first question about how do you notice the wow moment - by being a truly thinking rider, being in the moment, trying to hear what the horse is saying and feel what it is doing as much as you give it instructions. It's a hard thing to learn but something that is well worth practicing daily if you want that kind of experience from your riding.  It sounds pompous, sorry, it's not meant to.

Also, when you get moments like that canter breakthrough, it's OK  to sit there and enjoy the moment for a bit. You've summitted one of the mountains (read the article :lol so take a breath before starting on the next one.


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## milliepops (30 August 2016)

I think, L, perhaps you are searching for there to be 'An Answer', the Right Way, maybe an End Point, when you'll be able to tick something off and move on to the next thing?  Dunno, but I don't think there ever is that answer

This has all gone a bit Woooo but I think there are 2 things going on here -

Subconsciously I think of training horses being like finding your way along a bit of frail string or thread in the dark and weaving it into a pattern. It kind of stays together but you've got to be careful with it because it's delicate.

The thing you are perhaps lacking is a long term training strategy, like a series of pegs on the wall that you can hang your string on. Each peg being a milestone in the training but they aren't linear - the training thread winds a cobweb from one to the other and back again as a concept needs to be revisited,or taken out of order.  When the horse is highly trained, the thread is well organised on the pegs and strong, but to start with it is tangled and leading off into the darkness.

An experienced rider who has trained lots of horses might already have their own set of pegs - someone with less experience would need to borrow a set from a good trainer.

The thread is fragile, so the other thing you need is a gentle pair of hands - not literally, but figuratively - an enquiring mind, thinking about what you are doing, what the horse is doing, where the thread is leading you next, as you tease it out and guide it from one peg to the next. Because it's dark, you can't *see* where you are going - every horse is different, so you have to use your other senses to work it out.  

Sorry!  This is way off topic but might help to explain what I was on about with the thinking bit.  Or might just explain why I've got odd horses. :lol:


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## Michen (30 August 2016)

Interesting thread. Until this year I have always had horses purely for pleasure, hacking, looking after. Never been competitive or had any competitive dreams. I still don't really, in that whilst it's lovely to get a rosette I don't care about being the best or even near the best on the day. The joy that I have got is from progress, for both me and the horse and I find its so rewarding. I don't think I would be happy now without that constant moving forwards.


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## Lanky Loll (30 August 2016)

Great thread PM 
I think the quality of instruction is a large part of it and it doesn't have to be super expensive a good instructor pushes you and builds your confidence and that doesn't mean patting you on the back for doing something you should know how to do anyway.  

I do a lot of my training through my local RC where lessons range from £20-£40 depending on who / what and how many in a group, as an example we are extremely lucky and have the opportunity to have group lessons with Pammy Hutton for £20each - bargain even with up to 6 in the group as she works you hard!!  Having observed the trainers I do think you get out what you put in and sometimes you can see the trainers are on autopilot.  

If you've got someone that walks in, mithers about the x-pole warm up and is almost "pretend" nervous then you can watch them switch off. I say it's pretend nervous because the horse is fine, they're fine, they're not being asked to do anything excessive but for some reason they attention seek like a toddler by making a hoohah about it.  By the end of the lesson they're jumping a small course and get a well done but you can see the eye rolling and the trainer's boredom a mile off.  They've not learnt anything, they've stayed in their zone but they get a pat on the back and continue on their merry way with no progression shown.

If you go in with a positive attitude you get a totally different experience and get pushed, maybe a bit out of your comfort zone but you come out of it with confidence and a feeling that you can go on to the next level.  
I have an expectation when I go for a lesson be it jump or flat that I will be pushed.  That I and/or horse will learn something new / start to iron out whatever issues I'm having (pick up my bad habits and help me fix them!) and that I can go away and work on it. 

I think some people just go for the pat on the back.


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## spacefaer (30 August 2016)

I have a client, lovely lady, who had a (what she called) a midlife crisis - and went out and bought a very educated dressage horse, having had nice RC type homebreds for most of her life.  She has been riding him for 2 years (almost to the day) and to start with, she discovered she had so many buttons, she was pressing them without realising - bit like learning to drive in a Ferrari.

She has had lessons and she has practised and she has now got to the point of not only being able to ride him, she is now improving him. When she gets it right, and he does what she's asked, she can feel it, even before I tell her, and she gets the biggest grin plastered on her face.

She says when she works him at home, some days are better than others, and she admits she is slower to achieve things by herself than when she is having a lesson, but if it doesn't feel right, she does it again until it does, or she changes what she's doing, until it does.

There is no "tick box" of saying, yup, done that, next thing - she is constantly checking quality of paces, outline, contact, activity, speed off the leg etc etc - the parameters may have changed but the basic questions are still there.  He may be quicker to respond to her aids, but it still has to be the right response!  Every time she thinks she's cracked a movement, we move the goalposts and ask for more


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## Mongoose11 (30 August 2016)

Interesting thread. I do think that men have a distinct advantage here and I've said it time and time again when watching male riders. I genuinely believe that women (many) tend to over think, over complicate, throw in buckets full of emotion, self doubt and self criticism and then it puts them at a distinct disadvantage. 

I always say that the only reason that the majority of Headteachers are male is because fewer women have the ego, self belief and confidence to believe that they are capable of the job. I see this transferred in to riding a lot of the time. I bet you'll have a male beginner jumping 1.10 far quicker than you ever would a female and it's not because they are 'better'.

Just my twopenneth.


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## Mongoose11 (30 August 2016)

The idea that 'lovely' happy hackers lack ambition did make me laugh. My ambition is to be a happy, happy hacker. &#128514;


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## muddy_grey (30 August 2016)

Really interesting thread.  I think there are people in the following groups
1) Say they want to do XYZ, but give hundreds of excuses.  When in actual fact they don't really want to put in the work or have the drive, but they don't want to admit it.  I think these people would be unlikely to read this thread.
2) Stuck in a rut! It is very easy to get in a rut, but hard to get out.  First you need to recognise you are in one and there are different types.  I was on a lovely yard with amazing people, but I was the only one who wanted to compete and I don't have my own transport.  When I got my new horse I made the really hard decision to move and it has been amazing!  We have come on leaps and bounds and there are a lovely bunch of people happy to share the cost of transport.
I also recently switched instructors (to one less than half the price FYI) and that was hard too.  My old instructor is very good and had taught me for years, but for some reason it wasn't clicking with my new girl.  I came away from lessons feeling deflated and frustrated with myself.  Now I feel inspired and come away with lots to work on.  
3) Confidence! I don't mean the people who are over coming this and pushing for 3 years to jump - well done you!  I mean those who allow it to hold them back. Face the fear and all that.  While I don't have confidence issues in the fear sense, I do struggle with self confidence. I am not over horsed in any way, but I worry that I am not good enough/ doing her justice and that can make me ride like a lemon.  I think in this case a good instructor/mentor is invaluable and preferably a yard of lovely supportive people too.  My instructor helps me to see the good and any improvements, but also picks up and works on the not so good.

Just a note on "you have to be competitive to compete" I don't agree with that.  I am not very competitive and that is part of the reasons I have youngsters.  I am off to Hickstead on Thursday and I am jumping the 1m classes, most of which are qualifiers.  I know there is no way I will even be placed let alone win.  There will be at least 150 entries and people motoring round on experienced horses looking to qualify and I would never push my 5yo to go that fast.  I am hoping for nice sensible rounds and DC's will be a bonus.  I am going because I think the exposure/experience will be good for her and it is a chance to test what we have been practising at home.


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## milliepops (30 August 2016)

Mongoose11 said:



			Interesting thread. I do think that men have a distinct advantage here and I've said it time and time again when watching male riders. I genuinely believe that women (many) tend to over think, over complicate, throw in buckets full of emotion, self doubt and self criticism and then it puts them at a distinct disadvantage. 

I always say that the only reason that the majority of Headteachers are male is because fewer women have the ego, self belief and confidence to believe that they are capable of the job. I see this transferred in to riding a lot of the time. I bet you'll have a male beginner jumping 1.10 far quicker than you ever would a female and it's not because they are 'better'.

Just my twopenneth.
		
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Do you have a theoretical level beyond which the division you see disappears?  Or do you see this as a discipline thing?

I'm thinking of the last olympics as an example. Lots of gutsy women at the top riding eventers, SJers and dressage horses.

Do you think this only applies at the lower levels?  I think it's convenient or easy to think this way but I honestly don't see it in practice. :confused3:


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## spacefaer (30 August 2016)

Mongoose11 said:



			Interesting thread. I do think that men have a distinct advantage here and I've said it time and time again when watching male riders. I genuinely believe that women (many) tend to over think, over complicate, throw in buckets full of emotion, self doubt and self criticism and then it puts them at a distinct disadvantage. 

I always say that the only reason that the majority of Headteachers are male is because fewer women have the ego, self belief and confidence to believe that they are capable of the job. I see this transferred in to riding a lot of the time. I bet you'll have a male beginner jumping 1.10 far quicker than you ever would a female and it's not because they are 'better'.

Just my twopenneth.
		
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I don't disagree with this - do you think it's a testosterone-driven, macho thing, or a lack of imagination? That women fear the unknown (what might happen after landing over a big fence for example), when men just do it anyway? or is it adrenalin - more men enjoy an adrenalin rush than women?

Not saying that women don't enjoy an adrenalin rush btw

ETA that isn't meant to sound critical/dismissive - just a sweeping bit of gender stereotyping for a Tuesday afternoon!


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## ester (30 August 2016)

I'm wondering if there are more perfectionist women than men. . . that then analyze everything to the nth degree before doing it. 
I suspect these are the people that I know stick to the one prelim test all summer, and decide which shows to go to based on that.


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## teapot (30 August 2016)

milliepops said:



			I'm thinking of the last olympics as an example. Lots of gutsy women at the top riding eventers, SJers and dressage horses.
		
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Not as many as you think http://www.economist.com/blogs/gametheory/2016/08/equestrian-eventing

(Don't agree there's a gender problem as per article but it's an interesting read)


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## milliepops (30 August 2016)

I have read the article and there are some interesting points but I think the numbers are iffy, 9/10 of the top 10 in all 3 disciplines being male isn't right whichever way you interpret it, I only have the dressage results in my head and no time to look up the rest for now, but in that comp at least, all the individual medals went to women


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## ester (30 August 2016)

They were talking about all three disciplines of eventing only though  not the pure dressage/sj




			But in the Olympic eventing last week, where riders and horses locked hooves in the three disciplines of dressage, cross-country and show-jumping, nine out of the top ten places were taken by men.
		
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## Jango (31 August 2016)

Honestly PM I think you are reading too much into what are probably throw away comments. To go from pottering about unaffiliated to being competitive at lower levels affiliated is a big jump in both time and money. I think it's as simple as 95% of people don't see the benefit of the commitment as they have other things in their lives. I've done the super competitive, work/train hard thing  in the past and to be perfectly honest I'm not sure if I'll bother again with the next horse after some horrendous luck with injuries. You say you ride 2hrs plus 6 days a week, if I wanted to do that I'd have to give up a lot of other things in my life I really enjoy. Whereas I can ride a friends horse twice a week, not improve, do the odd unaff ode and still have time/money to buy a house which doing up, go on lots of holidays, spend time with friends and family.

To give a similar example Im a little bit overweight, I'm a size 12 when I should really be a 10. If I was chatting casually at work/farm about wearing a bikini I'd probably say 'I'd love to be skinny' when in reality I prefer cake and yummy food to weighing a stone less! I know what commitment it would take to lose the weight and it doesn't seem worth the effort. Same as the person who says 'id love to jump x height or id love to win a rosette' for a lot of people it would be a big commitment they are not willing to make, whether it's the increased time commitment or the difficulty of overcoming nervousness. The large majority of the people at my yard (70+ liveries with excellent facilities) ride 2-3 times a week, have the odd lesson off the cheaper mediocre local instructors and so don't really improve and if they compete it's intro/prelim dressage or 60cm sj. They love their horses and they are happy, they probably look at your life and think it's dull to spend all that time and money on competing  horses for courses!


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## Lucyad (31 August 2016)

I think you said you had a 60 hour working week too - assuming you are competing (not working) at weekends, that's 12 hours a day (5 days) - time to get to and from work / yard, horse care etc... and then riding for over 2 hours 6 days a week as well - I'm struggling to see where you have time to sleep / eat, never mind fit in maintain relationships, bringing up children, cook / clean / maintain property.... most people could not sustain a lifestyle like this - something would need to give.  And usually it would be their hobby (after all we are not talking about people who's riding is their career).  I don't see this as a bad thing - a balance is required.

I often have to work 12 hour plus days and the last thing on my mind afterwards is to train for 2 hours plus - I would be more concerned with spending a some time with my daughter, cooking some dinner, getting some washing done for the next day, and maybe, if time, pootling along for a relaxing hack.


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## ycbm (31 August 2016)

On the gender issue, it's not how many men are at the top compared to how many women are at the top that shows what is going on. It's how many men are at the top compared to how many men start out at the bottom. It's very clear that men are generally more driven to go out and try and beat other people, and will do whatever it takes to achieve that. Same as in the Boardroom.


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## ycbm (31 August 2016)

Jango said:



			Honestly PM I think you are reading too much into what are probably throw away comments. To go from pottering about unaffiliated to being competitive at lower levels affiliated is a big jump in both time and money. I think it's as simple as 95% of people don't see the benefit of the commitment as they have other things in their lives. I've done the super competitive, work/train hard thing  in the past and to be perfectly honest I'm not sure if I'll bother again with the next horse after some horrendous luck with injuries. You say you ride 2hrs plus 6 days a week, if I wanted to do that I'd have to give up a lot of other things in my life I really enjoy. Whereas I can ride a friends horse twice a week, not improve, do the odd unaff ode and still have time/money to buy a house which doing up, go on lots of holidays, spend time with friends and family.

To give a similar example Im a little bit overweight, I'm a size 12 when I should really be a 10. If I was chatting casually at work/farm about wearing a bikini I'd probably say 'I'd love to be skinny' when in reality I prefer cake and yummy food to weighing a stone less! I know what commitment it would take to lose the weight and it doesn't seem worth the effort. Same as the person who says 'id love to jump x height or id love to win a rosette' for a lot of people it would be a big commitment they are not willing to make, whether it's the increased time commitment or the difficulty of overcoming nervousness. The large majority of the people at my yard (70+ liveries with excellent facilities) ride 2-3 times a week, have the odd lesson off the cheaper mediocre local instructors and so don't really improve and if they compete it's intro/prelim dressage or 60cm sj. They love their horses and they are happy, they probably look at your life and think it's dull to spend all that time and money on competing  horses for courses!
		
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Very good point!  The Police would be very busy if everyone who said 'I'm going to kill him!' meant it


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## Casey76 (31 August 2016)

This has turned out to be a great thread.  Maybe I can add a bit more now that it has developed 

I've wanted to compete in dressage since I was a teenager.  I never got the "whole jumping thing" that many teenagers get.  I wanted the "being one with your horse and dancing across the arena" instead.  I had lessons where and when I could afford it (having absolutely no connections to horses, and my parents didn't have any spare money, and I wasn't one of those "I'll do anything" to be around horses at the time as I was very, er, academic at the time).  When I was 16 I had an accident - which continues to send ripples down my life - and it completely killed my confidence around horses.  I didn't go near a horse again til I was 24.  I then had 2 years of pure dressage lessons on a weekly basis with a very strict German trained instructor. It developed my passion for accuracy if nothing else!

My first horse hated schooling. You could hear him grump when we headed for the arena rather than the great outdoors, so I put my dreams of dressaging on hold again, while I cooperated with him, and we did more hacking than schooling.  I bought a foal with the intent that he would grow up to be my (big, black) dressage horse - if *he* didn't like dressage, then I would probably have to give up on the idea all together!

I lost Pinto far earlier than I was expecting to, and then I ended up with a very green (too green!) small black pony who had never been schooled at all, was very spooky and couldn't canter.

Three years on, my small black pony is schooling elementary level bits and pieces, though we are still struggling with canter.  My big black horse, who is extremely trainable if a bit thick, is probably too much horse for me but I am determined that I will get out there and do it - eventually.

I am extremely lacking in confidence; I've now had two head injuries, I have ongoing issues with balance perception and proprioception, vertigo etc and it really doesn't take much to knock what little confidence I do have.  Most of it is psychological - I can catastophosize with the best of them.  I've had counseling, group therapy, hypnotherapy etc.  Many people ask me why I keep doing it if I'm so scared... it's because I want to! I have a goal.  First it is dressage, but ultimately it is CCE (ODE).  I may be scrambling round a 60cm (that's Club 3 level!) course, but that is my ultimate goal. I don't care how long it takes to get there.

Yesterday I had the hugest proud moment when I went on my first solo hack in almost 4 years.  I was out 20 mins, and stayed in walk.  I didn't shut up for a minute (talking to my pony, singing etc), so I must have looked like a complete loon.  But I did it!

It is the small things which keep me getting back on. The small moments when Tartine is really working through, her back comes up and I can *sit* into her trot and we just glide effortlessly.  The time when she "got" medium trot, and her shoulders lifted.  Doing a course of "jumps" (which were bars on the ground) making sure our lines were correct in canter.  Being able to laugh when she leaps over a canter pole instead of having a panic attack.

I may not achieve great things, but I will achieve more than I am at the moment.


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## ester (31 August 2016)

Lucyad said:



			I think you said you had a 60 hour working week too - assuming you are competing (not working) at weekends, that's 12 hours a day (5 days) - time to get to and from work / yard, horse care etc... and then riding for over 2 hours 6 days a week as well - I'm struggling to see where you have time to sleep / eat, never mind fit in maintain relationships, bringing up children, cook / clean / maintain property.... most people could not sustain a lifestyle like this - something would need to give.  And usually it would be their hobby (after all we are not talking about people who's riding is their career).  I don't see this as a bad thing - a balance is required.

I often have to work 12 hour plus days and the last thing on my mind afterwards is to train for 2 hours plus - I would be more concerned with spending a some time with my daughter, cooking some dinner, getting some washing done for the next day, and maybe, if time, pootling along for a relaxing hack.
		
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That again is why I wonder if it is a bit different because P+M doesn't own his, he usually rides for other people which is very different to having your own on quite a lot of levels. He hasn't come back to my prior musings on that though.


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## Lucyad (31 August 2016)

I wonder also if you feel this way because you tend to get involved with horses that are not reaching their potential with their owners (for whatever reason) and then have a task of bringing them on the a certain level.  This is your 'job' with them so to speak, so you will necessarily be goal drive.  You get a period between horses to recharge. The relationship between you and the horse, and overall care, is not as predominantly a part of the package as your average one horse owner. You also tend to get the horses taken back by the owner once they reach their peak so you don't necessarily have the issue of getting to a level that you as a combination of horse and rider get stuck at, without the potential to keep progressing.  I might be wrong...just musing....


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## Lucyad (31 August 2016)

ester said:



			That again is why I wonder if it is a bit different because P+M doesn't own his, he usually rides for other people which is very different to having your own on quite a lot of levels. He hasn't come back to my prior musings on that though.
		
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Cross posted!


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## Bernster (31 August 2016)

Been a thought provoking thread, although me wonders where OP has gone to, after lobbing in his grenade he seems to have gone AWOL!  Liked this too from Jango...



Jango said:



			Honestly PM I think you are reading too much into what are probably throw away comments. To go from pottering about unaffiliated to being competitive at lower levels affiliated is a big jump in both time and money. I think it's as simple as 95% of people don't see the benefit of the commitment as they have other things in their lives. I've done the super competitive, work/train hard thing  in the past and to be perfectly honest I'm not sure if I'll bother again with the next horse after some horrendous luck with injuries. You say you ride 2hrs plus 6 days a week, if I wanted to do that I'd have to give up a lot of other things in my life I really enjoy. Whereas I can ride a friends horse twice a week, not improve, do the odd unaff ode and still have time/money to buy a house which doing up, go on lots of holidays, spend time with friends and family.

To give a similar example Im a little bit overweight, I'm a size 12 when I should really be a 10. If I was chatting casually at work/farm about wearing a bikini I'd probably say 'I'd love to be skinny' when in reality I prefer cake and yummy food to weighing a stone less! I know what commitment it would take to lose the weight and it doesn't seem worth the effort. Same as the person who says 'id love to jump x height or id love to win a rosette' for a lot of people it would be a big commitment they are not willing to make, whether it's the increased time commitment or the difficulty of overcoming nervousness. The large majority of the people at my yard (70+ liveries with excellent facilities) ride 2-3 times a week, have the odd lesson off the cheaper mediocre local instructors and so don't really improve and if they compete it's intro/prelim dressage or 60cm sj. They love their horses and they are happy, they probably look at your life and think it's dull to spend all that time and money on competing  horses for courses!
		
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## paddi22 (31 August 2016)

I don't agree with the idea that you have to be competitive to compete. 

I love eventing but would never consider myself competitive, I just use events
&#8226; as a goal to aim my training towards and make sure his all round education is even
&#8226; to see how i measure my progress, but not against others
&#8226; as a day out and enjoyable experience
&#8226; to explore where my weaknesses are
&#8226; as a social thing
&#8226; as a marker, if he's finding a level easy then i know it's time to move up

I couldn't care less how we place. It's not always an even playing field. You always get the riders who have the schoolmasters who have done 3 levels above, or the people bringing on fabulous well bred babies.  I just use it as a standard to see where i am at.  I've won competitions on a bad day, and 'lost' even after his best performances. So at the end of the day i just go and enjoy it.


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## smja (31 August 2016)

I don't think this is really a question of competing, more about the desire to continually improve and the steps you take to get there. It's about the mindset; putting goals in place and working towards them.

I think PM's first instinct is to plan those things out quite clearly, and he doesn't understand why other people, who have voiced their goal (e.g. do a Novice test, jump 70cm, hack a particular route, whatever), have no plan for how to achieve it and, in some cases, don't understand themselves WHY they aren't achieving it.

Improvement doesn't happen by magic; you work for it, regardless of your discipline and whether you compete or not.


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## PaddyMonty (31 August 2016)

ester said:



			That again is why I wonder if it is a bit different because P+M doesn't own his, he usually rides for other people which is very different to having your own on quite a lot of levels. He hasn't come back to my prior musings on that though.
		
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My Bad. Tad busy atm. 
My initial thought was yes you could be on to something. I'm judged on how the horse is improving so there is a need to show development. Then I got to thinking how I behaved when I did have own horse or horses on long term loan with no pressure from owner. I was exactly the same.


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## paddi22 (31 August 2016)

To progress in something though you need to have a certain mindset and self discipline to pursue it. And in pursuing it you definitely sacrifice other things, eg time & energy that would have been spent on other things/people.  Some people just don't have the energy to start the process as they have other priorities. In an ideal world they would like to, but if your horse is your relaxation time then i can completely understand keeping it easy. 

And everyone is different in what makes them tick. I think of it in relation to gardening, some people make the most of their garden and put effort and time in to make it beautiful, some people would love a nice garden but are happy enough to just cut the grass and use it a few times a year when its sunny. And im sure its nice to imagine what you COULD do, but at the end of the day you pick what you want to concentrate your energy on.  Just because you have a garden doesn't mean you need to use it to it's potential.


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## teapot (31 August 2016)

ester said:



			They were talking about all three disciplines of eventing only though  not the pure dressage/sj
		
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Yup, though the top 6 in the sj were all men. 

I do wonder whether ycbm is onto something - the boardroom analogy is a good one.


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## paddi22 (31 August 2016)

it doesn't surprise me that there are more men at top level. A lot women would have kids and it's 100 times more difficult to get the time to train and compete, especially in competing. I am in awe of the women i see towing kids around at events. But it does require a massive amount of support, you see them with husbands, grannies and grandads in tow helping them. If i had kids i'd have no support available like that so wouldn't be able to do it.  It's a massive commitment money and timewise. It;s no just you giving your day up, its your helpers as well.  

Any friends i have who have had kids have struggled to get the time, money energy to get back to competitive level and are delighted to even get out to a local show.


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## Lanky Loll (31 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			it doesn't surprise me that there are more men at top level. A lot women would have kids and it's 100 times more difficult to get the time to train and compete, especially in competing. I am in awe of the women i see towing kids around at events. But it does require a massive amount of support, you see them with husbands, grannies and grandads in tow helping them. If i had kids i'd have no support available like that so wouldn't be able to do it.  It's a massive commitment money and timewise. It;s no just you giving your day up, its your helpers as well.  

Any friends i have who have had kids have struggled to get the time, money energy to get back to competitive level and are delighted to even get out to a local show.
		
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But then it's even more important to set targets and take the steps to achieve them.
I work full time and have a 3yo son, the target for this year was to get the 5yo ISH to RC areas.  So far he's done Novice winters as his first show, qualified for the Novice summer regionals as part of a team, then went to Hartpury for the regional final and our team won (he was one of the 2dcs on our team), he was on the team for the area ODE where we finished 12th in our section and the team came 2nd.  I set him realistic goals and made sure he had the outings and experience to fulfill them.


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## paddi22 (31 August 2016)

thats amazing and fair play to you, but who minds him when you are training and competing? If you don't have grandparents or a supportive husband, or a super paid job where you can afford minders, it's really difficult to get the time free. I see how much all my friends struggle, especially if they have a couple of kids, it's easier to offload one than three!


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## Lanky Loll (31 August 2016)

paddi22 said:



			thats amazing and fair play to you, but who minds him when you are training and competing? If you don't have grandparents or a supportive husband, or a super paid job where you can afford minders, it's really difficult to get the time free. I see how much all my friends struggle, especially if they have a couple of kids, it's easier to offload one than three!
		
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Husband is very anti-horse but will usually do the childcare whilst I compete - but I try and limit the frequency that I compete as he gets extremely grumpy about it.  My mum and I can usually manage horse + childcare between us at other times.   I definitely don't have the money for additional minders beyond the days he does at nursery whilst I'm working - and I can only afford 2 of those, my mum has him the other 3! I'm also incredibly lucky that my parents do the majority of the equine care as well.  

Even with one it's tricky, our 1st ODE this year involved a 4.30 alarm and taking small with me - made for an EXTREMELY grumpy child.  But if you want to compete you do it tbh.  I have friends with more children / less childcare opportunities and am amazed at what they can achieve.  The one thing that you end up giving up on is sleep   In someways it has got easier as he's got bigger - I see it as I'm making the most of my time before his sport and activities take over so want to achieve as much as I can before that happens.


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## Roxylola (31 August 2016)

Lucyad said:



			I think you said you had a 60 hour working week too - assuming you are competing (not working) at weekends, that's 12 hours a day (5 days) - time to get to and from work / yard, horse care etc... and then riding for over 2 hours 6 days a week as well - I'm struggling to see where you have time to sleep / eat, never mind fit in maintain relationships, bringing up children, cook / clean / maintain property.... most people could not sustain a lifestyle like this - something would need to give.  And usually it would be their hobby (after all we are not talking about people who's riding is their career).  I don't see this as a bad thing - a balance is required.
		
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I wanted to say this about 15 pages ago but couldn't word it without seeming a bit off with the OP.  For me personally my commute is about 45 mins each way so realistically I would be out of the house for 14 hours a day just to work a 60 hour week (15 if we deduct the hour I have to take and don't get paid for at lunch).  Unless you work from home and/or have paid help just keeping on top of the basics, cooking dishwashing, washing etc never mind cleaning would be virtually impossible.
I also don't ride my own, but I do tack up etc for myself so I would in the circumstances you describe be arriving at the yard at maybe 9pm with a prospect of riding for a couple of hours and likely not getting home before midnight.  I would then be having to cook and at the very least sort out the dishwasher or washing machine before going to bed and getting up around 5 to walk the dogs!  I would also be having to pay a dog walker in this sort of scenario!
The above is one of the reasons I don't have a horse of my own anymore.

While I approve of goal setting they do need to be realistic and achievable so for me to get to PSG is unlikely because I simply don't have the time to put the work in.  However to sigh and wish I could get to Novice BD or similar, well I think most of us have that ability although we might have to be realistic about what marks we can expect to achieve.  I have little patience for anyone who is fit and well (mentally and physically) with a healthy horse who won't get out and have a go if it is what they want to do.


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## Goldenstar (31 August 2016)

I Get sick of dressage trainers saying I should be doing xyz with my horses .
One very well respected trainer told me recently I should be training people I mean why ? 
You know why I am not because I can't be bothered / I don't want to .
When I was younger I competed now I just can imagine nothing worse all that memorising stuff packing and unpacking lorries not for me now .


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## Cortez (31 August 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			I Get sick of dressage trainers saying I should be doing xyz with my horses .
One very well respected trainer told me recently I should be training people I mean why ? 
You know why I am not because I can't be bothered / I don't want to .
When I was younger I competed now I just can imagine nothing worse all that memorising stuff packing and unpacking lorries not for me now .
		
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That's kind of me now too; I really couldn't be arsed.


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## BBP (31 August 2016)

When I bought my horse I thought we would be working at advanced medium, and that he'd be my trick riding and endurance horse. Once I got to know him I had to adapt all of my aspirations. Those things just weren't him. He was highly strung, prone to panic and a bit autistic in his views on the world. Every day was like he'd never seen the world before. He is a stunning mover, an athletic jumper and has an incredibly trainable mind, but he also has a fragile mind. I don't deny that with a better rider he might be a better competition horse but he is stuck with me. So I adapted my ambitions to suit him. He doesn't need to compete now to fulfil my new ambition to be a better horsewoman. We compete at trec rather than dressage or eventing because the puzzles suit him and the atmosphere at competitions suits him better (corralling rather than stabling overnight). I take massive amounts of pleasure in training him at home, he is a real joy to ride, we work on dressage movements but made more fun for him so we do garocha training or working equitation elements, or archery, whatever. I have learned more than I ever thought possible from this little horse. So at competitions we may be that combination that people think should do better, but at home we work hard, train hard and have the best time together, and I no longer feel I'm letting him down for not competing at a higher level. I dont need rosettes or big jumps to prove his worth. 

But I have every respect for those who do work up the levels with happy horses, having fun.


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## [59668] (1 September 2016)

PaddyMonty said:



			I'm wondering if people set their expectations and goals far too low these days and why.
My last horse went from having done one intro (not with me) to a top 10 placing at BD regionals in 6 months.
Current horse 8 weeks ago was bent like a banana, charged her fences and nose dived over them generally taking the poles with her. Now I would most likely get her round a BE90 without disgracing ourselves too badly.
Now I dont consider myself a talented and gifted rider. I seen some of those and that aint me  but I set and expectation of the horse and then work dam hard to achieve it. Next season we will be starting eventing. Plan is to skip BE80 and go straight in at BE90 with a view t be doing BE100 mid season. Perfectly reasonable to my way of thinking.

On the flip side I see post after post about people schooling their horse for 12-18 months and feel they might be able to do an intro test soon. Taking years just to jump 70cm. Stick at the same level eventing all season, think getting over the last fence SJ is an achievement even if 6 poles have gone down during the round.

Why?

Is it a lack of rider confidence, are instructors not pushing their pupils anymore, is the pat on the back mentality we have for the slightest of success lowering expectations or do people just not want to put the effort in anymore? Have people lost sight of what can be achieved with correct training and effort? I just don't understand why the horse world seems to be sinking in to mediocraty.

Would be interested in how others think / feel about this.
		
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Because it's about having fun.  If I bought a 3* eventer and "just" wanted to hack, but it made me happy, why not?!  Some people are happy just to be "mediocre".  What a terrible attitude to have.  You must look down on everyone.

You don't know enough about the people who are happy to have finished when they have knocked 6 fences down at "just" 70cm.  Maybe they were injured, and have made massive steps just to get back on a horse, and getting round was a huge achievement.  Maybe they were sick with nerves, and shaking, but they did it anyway.  Maybe the horse had come back from injury.  Maybe there is a story there you don't know.

Please don't judge everyone like that and label them unambitious and mediocre.


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## SEL (1 September 2016)

Regandal said:



			I agree with PM about one thing. The standard of instruction around my area is not mediocre,  it is dire. The worst part is that the riders don't seem to realise how awful it is. 
Another friend was given two blocks of lessons at a very prestigious equestrian centre as a gift. Twenty lessons.  She was no further forward at the end of them. She did suspect 'they're just telling me what I want to hear. Not pushing me'. Waste of time and money.
		
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In my area too. I rent a field for my 2 from a riding school and the quality of tuition is shocking. The trouble is the instructors don't really have any formal training and so they are just passing on their style and their way of riding. They also don't want to teach on the more challenging ponies in case the kids fall off, so the kids only ever learn on the push button versions. Parents wanting to see their kids doing something 'exciting' also don't help because they don't get the ground work in the basics. Plus lessons here are only 30 mins long whereas it was standard for an hour's tuition when I was a kiddie so you really did get stuck in (60 mins of sitting trot anyone???)

Incidentally the biggest achievement for me this year will be getting my recently diagnosed PSSM mare hacking. Low expectations? Absolutely. But from where we were in Feb it would feel like a ****** miracle!


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## oldie48 (1 September 2016)

I've just got back from a dressage camp at Addington. My greatest achievement was going into a warm up with other horses and having lessons with other people around me. I had a bad incident at a competition in a warm up arena 18 months ago and because I didn't deal with it at the time it just developed into a huge phobia. I still couldn't take Mr B into a busy warm up and I'm not sure we could achieve that but at least it's a start! Did a test in the "international arena", not the best I've ever done but he coped with the arena really well, I was so proud of him!


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