# Mis sold a pony?



## Louisejane (9 May 2012)

Hi all, when it comes to horses, I don't have much luck so I'm feeling a little silly today!  I'm looking for some advice here as I don't know where to turn.

We bought a pony for my nervous daughter of ten.  We have been looking a very long time for the right one and we thought we had found her.  The advert for the horse included "a safe sensible ride who works well in the arena and hasn't a bad bone in her body"  It also stated "no vices" which is a near impossible with horses, I know!

We trialled her twice at the owners, my daughter jumped her, hacked her out and did all the usual flatwork, the pony was ideal and I can honestly say she did not put a foot wrong so her owner delivered her last Thursday.

Now I know its not quite a week and every horse needs time to settle but this pony is dangerous!!  I asked the owner how long she thought we should leave her and she said she would be fine to ride the next night.

On bringing her in, she was bargy and a nightmare to tack up but we took it slow thinking that she was just nervous in new surroundings.  As soon as my daughter got on the pony, it kept stopping and backing up, if my daughter put her leg on then she would buck, if she didn't put her leg on then she would keep backing up.  Eventually, the pony threw a huge buck and dumped my daughter in the arena.  An older more experienced rider got on her and she also got dumped after the pony reared and then bucked her.  We didn't have a whip and both girls were only using leg aids.

I spoke to the owner that night and she said that the pony had never ever bucked, reared or kicked and she must not have settled, she recommended that the next day we lunge her to get her used to the arena and put my daughter on the lunge line.

Our instructor put her on the lunge line and the pony went nuts, aiming a huge kick at the instructors head and narrowly missing her head.  We worked through it and my daughter rode her but again, the pony kept backing up and threatening to rear if my daughter asked her to walk on.  My daughter got her to do the basics and then ended the lesson early.  I updated the owner that night and the owner confessed that even though she recommended we lunge her that she had never actually lunged her and had no idea what she would be like!!  She also went back on her statement that the pony never bucked and said she did buck when a whip was used on her, we never used one.

Sunday was much of the same, only by this point my daughter was too scared to get on her so the experienced girl rode her and had to fight her all the way.  The owner just kept saying she hasn't settled.  I rested her on Monday as I felt like it was too much for the pony and last night the experienced girl got on her again.

It was horrendous!! The pony was playing up the whole time, throwing huge bucks and backing up and going onto her back legs.  When the girl asked her to walk forward she virtually ran backwards, slamming into the other horse in the arena, when she reached the fence she started to rear, very almost going backwards over the fence with the rider on her.

I don't know what to do, the owner refuses to come and take her back as she says she no longer has the money and just says she hasn't settled.

The vet witnessed last nights episode and was shocked that she had been sold to us as a childs pony, he said he would be willing to provide a statement to last nights behaviour and recommended I give the owner 7 days to return the money or I should go to small claims court.

This pony has supposed to have had novices on her all her life and done pony club, xc and sj as well as taken nervous riders to the beach!  

There is no way on earth I would sell her on as I would never forgive myself if anything happened to another little girl, its more good luck than anything else that no one has been hurt with us.

Is there anything I can do or is it just my stupid fault for taking the pony without trialling?

Many thanks


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## Amymay (9 May 2012)

So, first things first. 

What tack are you using?
And as I'm assuming the vetting threw up no issues, get the bloods run.

Apart from riding the pony at the viewings - what else did you do with the pony?

Horses/ponies can take time to settle - but her behaviour does sound rather extreme.....

Make sure you have a copy of the advert, just in case this does head down the legal route.

Also - did you take an instructor along with you when viewing the pony????


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## 3Beasties (9 May 2012)

Was the pony vetted?

It's a difficult one as it hasn't been long so the pony may still be unsettled (although that is quite extreme behavior) so may well improve over the next week or so but I also feel that the longer you leave it the less chance you'll have of getting your money back.

I've got a pony that is brilliant at my yard but turns into a devil when she goes out on loan, I'm sure she's settle but unfortunately it seems to take her months and understandably the parents don't want to wait that long if children are involved. Saying that mine was always fine to ride, just a complete cow bag on the ground!


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## lcharles (9 May 2012)

Maybe give her a week of grooming, getting used to her new routine and learning to trust you (but at the same time persist getting your money back!) after a week she should be more settled and used to you and your daughter. Maybe she's testing you out? Obviously an ideal childs pony wouldnt do this but most horses will see what they can get away with to an extent! 

Is the tack the tack you bought her with? x Does it fit? x 

Has her feed changed? x 

Its harder as ts for a 10 year old and you dont want to knock her confidence x 

Its good that the vet is backing your side and willing to assist in helping get the money back x


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## Goldenstar (9 May 2012)

Get the bloods run if you you have access to legal advice cheaply get some or use the BHS legal advice service if you have gold membership.
I don't know why the pony is behaving as it is but it's not something to muck about with get legal advice fast get the statement from the vet and get thing moving now its not your issue that the owner has not got the money if you can legally return the pony do so quickly.
Don't risk a child getting hurt over this .
It could that something in the ponys past means it has issues with its new home and it may settle but better safe than sorry.


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## Louisejane (9 May 2012)

Thank you.

She has come with the tack that we trialled her with.  Unfortuantely, the instructor did not come with us to trial her but we video'd it all and my daughter did great on her, popping 70cm jumped, fillers, spreads, no problems at all.  We hacked her out through woodland and back down a busy dual carriage way.  I cannot understand the enormous difference and feel totally stupid!

My daughter is terrified of getting on her and to be honest I won't let her back on her, she is so dangerous, I honestly thought she was going to squish the girl on her last night.

I'm scared if I leave it too long then the owner will accuse us of making her behave like this, I do understand that they take time to settle but she's just too dangerous.

My daughter brings her in and grooms her in her stable but she hates even this!  She throws her head up and its a battle in itself when it comes to tacking up.  My daughter groomed and tacked her up at the trial and she was so good!

This is a copy of the advert that the owner has removed from almost every website.

**** is a lovely sweet pony, that doesnt have a bad bone in her body. She loves being groomed and fussed over and is always first at the gate to greet you. Sunshine has no vices at all and is a pleasure to own in every way.
**** is very laid back and is a nice safe ride, but at the same time she has a lovely jump and is a great all rounder. She works well in the arena and over poles, grids and courses of jumps. She doesnt look at any fillers, water trays etc and loves doing bits of cross country.
**** has a lovely soft mouth and is easy to stop. She is quite haoppy to hack out alone but is also sensible even when in open fields in big groups.
**** is good as gold for everything. She loads easily onto a wagon or trailer and travels like a dream whether alone or with others. Shell happily go on and off the box at shows. She is great to shoe, worm, bath, clip, catch etc.
**** is a fully papered and passported welsh sec c and is up to date with everything, blacksmith, dentist, worming etc.
Her price includes all of her tack. Good home very important as she really is such a sweetheart and a pleasure to own.


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## Tinsel Trouble (9 May 2012)

That sounds like a nightmare situation- Personally I would get a solicitors letter written (£50) and state the issues and ask how the previous owner sees fit to solve it. One of the demands should be your money back. 

Saying that I would give the mare a week or so to settle in to a new yard. My pony I have owned for 10 years he's a little bugger and was bought as a childs pony- he really isn't! Can you move to a quieter yard- or try to get lessons on your own- It is a massive ask from you to expect a horse to work in a busy environment in an area they don't know with horses they have never met after 12 hours!


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## Natz88 (9 May 2012)

amymay said:



			So, first things first. 

What tack are you using?
And as I'm assuming the vetting threw up no issues, get the bloods run.

Apart from riding the pony at the viewings - what else did you do with the pony?

Horses/ponies can take time to settle - but her behaviour does sound rather extreme.....

Make sure you have a copy of the advert, just in case this does head down the legal route.
		
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Ditto this.

 When I was younger & looking for a pony we went to view one & when we arrived it had already been ridden, which my mum questioned. Anyway I rode it was everything we was after, but we asked to have it on a couple of weeks trial which we was allowed. So in the trial we rang them just to see if it was ok to take him to a show. So we took him to a show to which he was being a right prat so my mum got on him & 10 mins of being on him she was air lifted to hospital. So my mum rang the owner from hospital bed to say he is not suitable & we then found out that the person getting rid wasn't actually the owner & she was getting rid for her friend who he had also put in hospital so you can imagine my mums reaction (but won't go into that ) they didn't want the pony back either & said we could have him for next to nothing, but he was no good for me at the time & someone on the yard we was on had him & he turne dinto a fab driving pony. So it's not a nice postion to be in & I really hope you get it sorted for the sake of your daughter & the pony.


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## Tammytoo (9 May 2012)

Can you contact one of her previous owners (not the one you bought her from),to see if she has doen this before? details should be on the passport.

I would also be asking myself if it was pain related.  This is pretty extreme behaviour, did you vet not suggest she be checked over?  If she was given a hefty dose of painkiller when your daughter first rode her it would have explained why she was not displaying such dangerous behaviour.  

Did you have her vetted and did your vet take bloods.  Have her teeth been checked?

Get a good qualified chiropractor to check her over and also to check that her saddle is not hurting her.  Horses are pretty tolerant of low grade pain, but once it gets unbearable they only have one way to tell us!

My son's pony changed almost overnight a month after we got her, napping and rearing.  She was treated by a McTimony chiropractor and after a couple of follow-up treatments, we had our lovely pony back on track.


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## Amymay (9 May 2012)

Was she vetted?


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## Littlelegs (9 May 2012)

Have you made any changes to her routine? Such as if she previously lived out & is now kept in?
  Only other thing I can think of is if your daughter was nervous any chance that she was maybe holding the reins tight enough to make it run backwards? I know you said same thing happened with a more experienced rider but i'm guessing that was another child who could also have done the same? Not suggesting they were sat yanking its mouth or its behaviors ok. But if the pony is unsettled & used to a light contact, a nervous child tensing up could explain the running backwards bit.


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## be positive (9 May 2012)

How old is she ? has she done any PC or shows in the previous homes, if she has done the reaction does sound very extreme, how are you keeping her is she now in a mixed group or stabled which may be unsettling her.

I have ponies in to sell sometimes and expect the been there done it ones to settle straight away both on arriving here and when moving to their new homes, they always do with maybe the odd teething problem but never being unrideable.


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## xspiralx (9 May 2012)

What a nightmare situation, poor you.

The 'not settled' argument really doesn't wash with me. You might expect the pony to be slightly anxious or a little more fresh than usual, but not dangerous rearing, bucking and kicking.

In any case, this pony has apparently been out to shows, so should be used to working in a different environment. 

If the sellers really are genuine then they ought to be willing to take the pony back to find a more suitable home. I'd be very suspicious of the fact that they are insisting it is just that the pony is unsettled - considering they make so much of the fact that the pony is a sweetheart, good home essential etc etc in the ad - the last owners should be seriously worried about such a change in character - and should at least be offering to come ride the pony themselves and see if they can help.

I'd take the vets advice - video her behaviour, get the statement from your vet and say that unless they take her back and give you a refund you will go to the small claims court.


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## Cuffey (9 May 2012)

I note the sellers are involved in Pony Club but there is no mention of Pony Club in the advert.

Suggest you contact the Chief Instructor or DC for a chat initially just ask if Sunshine was ridden by a member then go from there

http://branches.pcuk.org/braesofderwentsouth/contact-us/


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## HazyXmas (9 May 2012)

Poor you, what a horrible position to be in. I'm afraid that the seller not wanting to take her back makes me think that she knows that there is something wrong with the pony.

IMO it is not unreasonable to expect a pony that has been sold as suitable for a nervous 10 yr old child, & has, according to the advert, been out to shows & happily done xc, to have a lesson in a strange school with other horses present. 

I would be writing her a letter stating that vet has witnessed the behaviour & that unless she returns your money & takes the pony back within 7 days you will be taking legal advice.

Good luck, i hope that you do find a really nice pony for your daughter soon.


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## s4sugar (9 May 2012)

How long had they owned this pony - not long enough to be able to advertise her as the chestnut she is rather than strawberry roan?
If such a basic thing is wrong in the advert the rest is not likely to be accurate.


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## ponypilotmum (9 May 2012)

The 'not settled' argument doesn't wash with me either. To me, if it can't settle to a point of being able to amble round the school safely after a few days then it's not right for us. I've given them months before, and they don't settle any more really than in the first week. The exceptions being youngsters or something more flightly. A child's pony is a different kettle of fish and should be calm and relaxed in a lesson scenario.


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## NeverSayNever (9 May 2012)

Cuffey said:



			I note the sellers are involved in Pony Club but there is no mention of Pony Club in the advert.

Suggest you contact the Chief Instructor or DC for a chat initially just ask if Sunshine was ridden by a member then go from there

http://branches.pcuk.org/braesofderwentsouth/contact-us/

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this is exactly what i was going to say...

if this ends up not working out for you, a tip for next time is to ring up the PC,local RC, RI's and find out history about the pony , get references! Also google is your friend...  search the pony's name and previous owner under previous comp results etc and see what comes up.

i also agree with luckylady -  when buying a childs schoolmaster , pc type Id expect to be able to travel it home and get straight on on the school.


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## Patterdale (9 May 2012)

If if was a horse for myself or any capable adult I would give it a chance to settle. 

But to be quite honest I wouldnt muck about with a childs pony. Not settled is one thing but this is extreme. 

She's already changed her story so I wouldn't trust them at all. You really can't muck about with a kids pony. A good one wouldn't behave like this, however much it 'hadn't settled.'

Ask again for your money back and take any vets notes etc that he says he will give to verify behaviour. 

If they refuse send a solicitors letter then take them to small claims. 

I wouldn't waste time grooming it etc as you risk your child getting hurt and it's just really not worth it. You've done enough bow and had enough different and experienced people on it/witnessing it to prove your point. 

I do a lot of teaching for the Pony Club and unfortunately this sort of thing is not rare. 

But it's not your problem and personally I would be getting rid and getting my money back asap.


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## Honey08 (9 May 2012)

Ponies do take time to settle.  Our first pony, a section A was as good as gold, but would have been a bit like that if pushed too much too soon.  Once she felt settled and relaxed she was as good as gold..but if worried would panic and "fight back".  Not to that extreme though, and I wouldn't have sold her as completely bombproof etc.

I can understand an owner saying they had spent the money and couldn't take it back, but from the "much loved" angle in the ad, I would expect the owner to come over and see the problem, perhaps have someone ride the pony..  If it was my much loved pony that "must find a good home" then I would be upset that it hadn't settled.. So from that angle it is a bit suspicious..

I agree with the videoing of the bad behaviour, getting a letter from the vet and your instructor saying they do not consider the pony safe or well described in the advert.  Say that you will be proceeding with legal action if previous owner continues to deny issues..


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## Kaylum (9 May 2012)

I would do everything that has already been suggested but what checking up on you did they do.  If the home was so important did they ask where she was going and did you use their vet or yours for the vetting?


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## piebaldsparkle (9 May 2012)

Cuffey said:



			I note the sellers are involved in Pony Club but there is no mention of Pony Club in the advert.

Suggest you contact the Chief Instructor or DC for a chat initially just ask if Sunshine was ridden by a member then go from there

http://branches.pcuk.org/braesofderwentsouth/contact-us/

Click to expand...

Interesting that as another older advert for a grey states he is a fantastic little pony club pony, so does throw up questions.

I also note the pony is quite young (6yrs), so how much experience carrying novices could she really have?


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## Littlelegs (9 May 2012)

Not seen the ad but if ponies only 6 that does change things. Like others, I'd expect a schoolmaster type for a novice to settle in reasonably quickly with maybe a few small hiccups, but a 6yr old isn't my idea of a schoolmaster & I wouldn't expect it to arrive & get on with it.


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## Cuffey (9 May 2012)

Just in case it is needed link to Cached advert
http://www.horsemart.co.uk/print_ad.php?id=220438


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## be positive (9 May 2012)

Interesting that if you google the number on the ad this pony was advertised for sale as a 4 year old for a little more money, it should have gone up in value since then or been sold within the PC branch if as good as it is supposed to be.

As for references the seller is very involved with the PC so a,ny references were likely to be favourable.


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## OWLIE185 (9 May 2012)

I would suggest that you ask the seller to come over and ride the pony at your place.
I would also search out the ponys history on www.nedonline.co.uk and determine how long the selers have owned it for.
You can either make a claim through the small claims court or get a specialist equine solicitor to act on your behalf to claim back the money for the pony and any costs you incur in keeping it.
Contacting the local pony club is also a good idear.
Horses will change when they are re-located (different surroundins, smells noises) or ridden by someone else as some of them are very sensitive souls.


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## Littlelegs (9 May 2012)

From a legal point of view though the ad doesn't make any mention of the pony being ideal for a novice or a school mistress, & £1500 is not much for a real pc saintly sort. I don't mean its not possible the sellers said otherwise in person, or that its morally ok to sell a child an unsuitable pony, but I don't think legally the advert alone proves it was mis sold.


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## PandorasJar (9 May 2012)

As others have said. Tack etc.

Perhaps if the owner seems genuine asking them to come ride? 

I think it depends on history too, if she's been with the same owner and same yard all her short life then she will be feeling very unsettled and I'd give her longer getting a bond to be honest. I'd want to make her feel that I wasn't going to be working all the time and groom, handle, get out etc but not necesarrily ridden each time.

I while back I trialled a 4yo that was sold as perfect to do in everyway, hacking out alone etc and not a bad bone. I wasn't expecting schoolmaster but he second I got on the thing tried chucking me, tanking etc and owner hopped back on and perfect. He'd known both of them and trusted, the second I got on he was completely unsettled... they didn't lie, it's just that the horse was still young and he didn't know me. Had I played around and bonded first I'd probably have been fine... My youngster is very nervous and prancy around people until she knows their smell and then she's bold as anything! She'll get over it in time.

I'd have gone a bit older and more experienced for a nervous childs pony personally. Perhaps telling the seller that unfortunately it's not worked out and the pony isn't ideal, then learn from this and get a 'been there done that' pony... doesn't have to be ancient or a plod, but I have to say I don't think it will be as cheap as the current one as they're snapped up quickly as they are worth their weight in gold.

Pan


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## Fairytale (9 May 2012)

Not sure if its me seeing things but the pony Cuffey highlights in the Horsemart ad is also advertised on Preloved but in a different location/price etc but states suited to a competitive experienced child rider........

But, is this the pony discussed in OP's original thread???  The wording is so very similar but just seems a tad odd to me


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## PandorasJar (9 May 2012)

be positive said:



			Interesting that if you google the number on the ad this pony was advertised for sale as a 4 year old for a little more money, it should have gone up in value since then or been sold within the PC branch if as good as it is supposed to be.

As for references the seller is very involved with the PC so a,ny references were likely to be favourable.
		
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We've knocked prices on some down drastically over time. They've actually been getting better, but we've been getting broker! Sometimes you sell for a little less for a better/faster home. One out of very good bloodlines will be going for a fair chunk lower than he's worth as it opens doors for a home who can afford him and work to his potential rather than just someone who can cough up the cash! Though our homes are always vetted very well to make sure we are happy where they go. And we're mugs so would always ask for first refusal however far in the future and would take back if not suitable in a heartbeat. They could also trial at our yard for a fair length of time.


Pan


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## Copperpot (9 May 2012)

I don't think being unsettled is any reason for that type of behaviour. I have always ridden any horse I've bought the next day and expected them to be well behaved. Maybe a bit spooky etc but not rearing etc. 

I feel for you. I hope you can get your money back or find out what is wrong with the pony.


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## lcharles (9 May 2012)

''From a legal point of view though the ad doesn't make any mention of the pony being ideal for a novice or a school mistress, & £1500 is not much for a real pc saintly sort. I don't mean its not possible the sellers said otherwise in person, or that its morally ok to sell a child an unsuitable pony, but I don't think legally the advert alone proves it was mis sold. ''

It says thats shes a 'nice safe ride' though, which clearly she isnt x


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## Meowy Catkin (9 May 2012)

On bringing her in, she was bargy and a nightmare to tack up but we took it slow thinking that she was just nervous in new surroundings.
		
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TBH, I would have looked at the pony and thought, 'she's tense, my daughter is a nervous rider - no way are we riding the pony tonight as it would be dangerous.'

I know that there are many that dismiss 'settling in' as tosh and maybe with an older pony that has been boxed to lots of different comps, you could expect to ride straight away. However this pony is young and was obviously not 'settled', she may go back to the calm pony that you viewed in time - I honestly can't judge as I don't know the pony.

I would like to say that my own mare had a huge change of character when I moved her. It was so extreme that if I hadn't already owned her - I'd have sworn that she was drugged (far worse behaviour than your pony). She just needed time to relax in her new home, once that happened she returned to her former ways.

Try to get the old owner to come to your yard and help you. If they are genuine, they should be more than willing to do this.

Lastly, the safety of your daughter is the most important thing here, so please be careful.


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## be positive (9 May 2012)

PandorasJar said:



			We've knocked prices on some down drastically over time. They've actually been getting better, but we've been getting broker! Sometimes you sell for a little less for a better/faster home. One out of very good bloodlines will be going for a fair chunk lower than he's worth as it opens doors for a home who can afford him and work to his potential rather than just someone who can cough up the cash! Though our homes are always vetted very well to make sure we are happy where they go. And we're mugs so would always ask for first refusal however far in the future and would take back if not suitable in a heartbeat. They could also trial at our yard for a fair length of time.


Pan
		
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I agree the price is not always relevant it is the home offered but in this case I do find it strange that after 2 years the ad is almost the same, it has been in a PC home with no mention in either ad of doing PC activities.

Another thought is that all the photos seem to be either on the same day or in the same fields, there are none from out and about, very rare nowdays to not get some from days out, photographers even go to PC camp now to capture those fun days. 

Whenever I have sold a pony almost the first question people in PC ask is has it been to rallies and camp if that is not in the ad, it is a priority to the buyers that a pony will go out and behave in a new environment, it is possible that this pony does not like going somewhere new and appears to have been in the same home for several years.


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## Littlelegs (9 May 2012)

'nice safe ride' though doesn't necessarily mean good for a novice. A nice safe ride for a competitive teen who's ridden all their life & nice safe ride for a novice child can be two entirely different horses. I'm not excusing selling a child a pony that could harm them, or at the least dent their confidence & waste their time, but the advert alone doesn't prove anything.


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## Louisejane (9 May 2012)

Thanks for all your replies, I feel utterly stupid in getting myself and my daughter in this situation, I have a habit of taking people on their word and am quickly learning not to do this in the horse world which is a shame for the genuine honest sellers out there.

The pony is on hoofon and it states clearly that she "has no vices at all".  I asked about rallies and pony club days and was told that she travels all over with Pony Club as her Mum is the treasurer for their local PC.  She even said that they use her for the nervous riders as she is so calm in different situations.

They said they have owned her since she was 2 and broke her in so she has been with them all her life and I feel desperately sorry for her as she is so unhappy with the change resulting in the behaviour but as our instructor said, if she has travelled to different events and had different riders on her there is no excuse for this level of behaviour.  The seller told me that she had two other families wanting her but wanted her to go to us as she cared to much about her, she wanted the right home.  If that was my pony that was so unsettled, I would be back like a shot trying to sort it out.

I have written to her to say that as the behaviour is becoming worse and I would like her to arrange to come over and ride her or refund my money and take the pony back.  I have told her that we have a witness statement from the vet and that I video's the behaviour last night.  I know time is needed to allow her to settle but there is no way in God's earth my daughter is getting back on her after we've seen what she can do!  My daughter is so much more important to me.

I may well just have to take it as a lesson learnt, I can't even sell her on as there is no way I would live with myself if she did this to someone else child and they got hurt, I just don't know what to do.


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## Amymay (9 May 2012)

Louisejane said:



			The pony is on hoofon and it states clearly that she "*has no vices at all*".  I asked about rallies and pony club days and was told that she travels all over with Pony Club as her Mum is the treasurer for their local PC.  She even said that they use her for the nervous riders as she is so calm in different situations.

They said they have owned her since she was 2 and broke her in so she has been with them all her life and I feel desperately sorry for her as *she is so unhappy with the change resulting in the behaviour but as our instructor said, if she has travelled to different events and had different riders on her there is no excuse for this level of behaviour.*  The seller told me that she had two other families wanting her but wanted her to go to us as she cared to much about her, she wanted the right home.  If that was my pony that was so unsettled, I would be back like a shot trying to sort it out.

I have written to her to say that as the behaviour is becoming worse and I would like her to arrange to come over and ride her or refund my money and take the pony back.  I have told her that we have a witness statement from the vet and that I video's the behaviour last night.  I know time is needed to allow her to settle but there is no way in God's earth my daughter is getting back on her after we've seen what she can do!  My daughter is so much more important to me.

I may well just have to take it as a lesson learnt, I can't even sell her on as there is no way I would live with myself if she did this to someone else child and they got hurt, I just don't know what to do.
		
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You still don't mention a vetting, so I guess you didn't have one.

You have not described any vices, just poor behaviour.

Your instructor (I would suggest) probably doesn't know what they're talking about.

Poor pony, poor kid and poor you.

Go get some good sound legal advice.  Good luck.


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## Louisejane (9 May 2012)

This is the advert I responded to which states that she has no vices at all and is laid back and a nice safe ride.  I just feel that she is so much the opposite that I must have some comeback if it comes to the courts? 

http://www.hoofon.co.uk/ads/all-rounder-horse-6-yrs-4-mths-13-2-hh-chestnut-roan-county-durham/


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## Littlelegs (9 May 2012)

I'd tell them if they had other families interested they shouldn't have any trouble taking her back. If all else fails though no reason you can't sell her on provided your honest, an older teen who's parents don't have the cash for a top pony or who enjoys a challenge may be just what the pony needs.


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## Louisejane (9 May 2012)

No, I didn't get a vetting which was a bad move on my part.  

Do bucking, rearing and kicking not count as vices?


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## Amymay (9 May 2012)

Louisejane said:



			No, I didn't get a vetting which was a bad move on my part.  

Do bucking, rearing and kicking not count as vices?
		
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No, they are behavioural issues.

Let us know how you get on.


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## Meowy Catkin (9 May 2012)

To me vices are cribbing, windsucking, boxwalking etc... rather than undesirable ridden behaviour (bucking, napping, rearing etc...) which any horse can exibit, given the right circumstances (pain, excitement, distress, fear etc...).


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## NeverSayNever (9 May 2012)

any pony can throw  a buck but rearing yes, i would consider that a vice! A ridden vice!  You cant guarantee any pony wont occasionally lift its front feet but established rearing is different.

i see she is a sec c - welshies are soooo clever and not always idea first ponies. My Sec D mare is a saint... I trust her so much I rode her to 8 months pregnant and she has never put a foot wrong, bar the odd normal spook and being strong at times. Her temperament is worth its weight in gold. So much so I put a friends young novice son on her - he is 12 and has actually had rides on my last horse, off lead rein and been fine in walk and trot. My mare took all of 2 mins to sus him out and took off with him Im afraid She turned into a right cow bag with him! Taught me a valuable lesson and thank goodness, he was ok.

At the end of the day, your daughters safety is paramount and if they wont take the pony back id cut your losses and sell sold as seen from the field, get your RI to sell it for you or sell to a dealer , accept the hit youl take on it and move on. We all make mistakes...  ive done the same buying for myself. Chin up. Noones hurt, thats the main thing.


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## Freddie19 (9 May 2012)

Louisejane said:



			Thanks for all your replies, I feel utterly stupid in getting myself and my daughter in this situation, I have a habit of taking people on their word and am quickly learning not to do this in the horse world which is a shame for the genuine honest sellers out there.

The pony is on hoofon and it states clearly that she "has no vices at all".  I asked about rallies and pony club days and was told that she travels all over with Pony Club as her Mum is the treasurer for their local PC.  She even said that they use her for the nervous riders as she is so calm in different situations.

They said they have owned her since she was 2 and broke her in so she has been with them all her life and I feel desperately sorry for her as she is so unhappy with the change resulting in the behaviour but as our instructor said, if she has travelled to different events and had different riders on her there is no excuse for this level of behaviour.  The seller told me that she had two other families wanting her but wanted her to go to us as she cared to much about her, she wanted the right home.  If that was my pony that was so unsettled, I would be back like a shot trying to sort it out.

I have written to her to say that as the behaviour is becoming worse and I would like her to arrange to come over and ride her or refund my money and take the pony back.  I have told her that we have a witness statement from the vet and that I video's the behaviour last night.  I know time is needed to allow her to settle but there is no way in God's earth my daughter is getting back on her after we've seen what she can do!  My daughter is so much more important to me.

I may well just have to take it as a lesson learnt, I can't even sell her on as there is no way I would live with myself if she did this to someone else child and they got hurt, I just don't know what to do.
		
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Feel sorry for you and your daughter, feel sorry for pony.  A couple of things stand out for me  A: this is an expensive lesson for you, always vet, and always check with pony club DC, if it is stated that pony was used for pony club.  B: if pony was with them from 2 years old, broken in by them, then yes it is going to be completely thrown by moving home, I can understand that, I would imagine you can understand it to.  It changes routine, friends etc etc.


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## be positive (9 May 2012)

The ad is the same one that shows on Horsemart and similar to the one from 2 years ago.

I think you should contact the seller again, in writing if that is easiest, state that the pony is very unsettled, behaving extremely badly and is not as described in the ads.

State that if she does not want you to to take further action you expect her to come, with her daughter and see them handle and ride her, if they had other people that wanted her they should be able to take her home and sell to the others.

Ask if she has been given a calmer of any type on a regular basis, it could be that she has been on something and with the move it has made the adjustment more difficult.
Gather as much info as possible if you do want to go down the legal route, contact someone from the PC and ask for statements of the ponys behaviour in the past, get several opinions including a parent or two that may just remember her.

As for where you go if there are no resolutions this way, probably the best would be to send her for an assessment to a professional yard to see if they feel she is viable to sell on to a more experienced home. It is always sad to feel that the pony may end up suffering through being sold, I would always take one back that was not working out, as I feel it is not fair to leave a pony in this situation.


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## zaminda (9 May 2012)

TBH, my friend had her horse vetted, and it turned into a lunatic. The vet said it wasn't really worth getting the bloods checked, as there are so many drugs that can be used it wasn't economically viable.
He eventually took the woman to court and won.
Your situation is a little different in that they have said other people were interested, and they have had her since a youngster, so I am surprised they haven't been more helpful. It stuns me how some people are with selling kids ponies, you would think being a parent they would be a bit more honest, but they aren't.
I would try talking to her again, and also talk to the local DC, who might then talk to the old owner, and nudge her into doing the right thing.


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## hollyandivy123 (9 May 2012)

was this a private or commercial sale i only say this as if you Google the mobile number from the horsemart advert you come up with a stud which is run as a commercial operation and therefore might be under trading standard rules? just another avenue for you to have a look at maybe


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## HazyXmas (9 May 2012)

It's an interesting question, what constitutes a vice?

 I would consider rearing to definitely be a vice, but what about kicking? Door kicking is considered a vice so why isn't kicking out at people? 

They say that she is good as gold in every way, which clearly she isn't, but i agree the advert is very 'woolly'. Are these people dealers or a private family?

A very good idea to make a few call to the local PC & see if anyone has ever seen her at any rallies, shows or camp. 

Maybe also worth asking pc DC if she knows of any older schoolmaster types for your daughter.


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## Louisejane (9 May 2012)

Thanks again everyone for your help and advice.

The only worry I have going down the PC research route is that they are heavily involved and the sellers mum is the treasurer.  I have looked on their website and cannot see any pictures or mention of her on there but apparantly the seller had Pony Club rallies on her property last year.

I would have thought that she was sold privately but yes, she was owned by the owner of the stud farm which is where we bought her from so possibly she was a business?


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## Amymay (9 May 2012)

It's an interesting question, what constitutes a vice?
		
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Vices are clearly defined as weaving, windsucking, cribbing.




			I would consider rearing to definitely be a vice
		
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Rearing is defined as a behavioural problem.


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## Patterdale (9 May 2012)

I'm not sure how getting it vetted would have helped unless you had bloods taken, and that's not really standard practice for ponies. 

Plus there are many ways of making a pony seem v calm without drugs, ie withholding water. 

'unsettled' is no excuse for that amount of bad behaviour. 

Plus I don't see how people can say that your instructor 'has no idea' without meeting them or being there!

I wouldn't give in on this one, I would fight it. I have bought and sold many ponies and there's no excuse for thus amount of bad behaviour. IMO it must have done it with them at some time. 

Would have been slightly more believable had it never left the farm before but as it's apparently been to PC and had lots of different nervous riders on it it should be able to be calmly tacked up at least!


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## Amymay (9 May 2012)

Louisejane said:



			I would have thought that she was sold privately but yes, she was owned by the owner of the stud farm which is where we bought her from so possibly she was a business?
		
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Start with trading standards, and go from there.


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## Tinsel Trouble (9 May 2012)

Louisejane said:



			The only worry I have going down the PC research route is that they are heavily involved and the sellers mum is the treasurer.  I have looked on their website and cannot see any pictures or mention of her on there but apparantly the seller had Pony Club rallies on her property last year.
		
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this woman sold you a horse that you consider to be threatening the life of your child, and you are worried about insulting her credibility in the PC by asking a few simple questions. In the nicest possible way- I think this woman might have seen you coming.

I don't mean to be harsh or rude- but quite bluntly- grow a pair and deal with this situation and learn from it, or it will happen again!


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## Patterdale (9 May 2012)

Sent too soon - for the future I would ALWAYS get DC and instructor references for ponies, and I don't believe anything can be a schoolmaster at 6. 

I hope you get it sorted, it's a tough situation. I wouldn't give in though!


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## Amymay (9 May 2012)

patterdale said:



			I'm not sure how getting it vetted would have helped unless you had bloods taken, and that's not really standard practice for ponies.
		
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I was curious about the vetting precisely because of the bloods (had it been five stage).  Both 2 and 5 stage vettings are quite common practice for ponies as well as horses......


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## Louisejane (9 May 2012)

, I've been told to grow a pair numerous times the last few days!

I wasn't worried about insulting her credibility, more the fact that I might come up against a few brick walls while digging for info.

I've found an equine legal specialist near me so have made an appointment to speak with them and will go down the trading standards route too.

Thanks again


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## Amymay (9 May 2012)

Tinsel Trouble said:



			this woman sold you a horse that you consider to be threatening the life of your child, and you are worried about insulting her credibility in the PC by asking a few simple questions???
		
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Got to agree OP.


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## Patterdale (9 May 2012)

Ditto Tinsel Trouble. 

Think of it this way, if it's as you say it is, they have taken your hard-earned cash and left you with a dangerous pony. I would get mad and get even!

Don't mean to sound preachy but people only walk all over you if you let them! 

Hope you get it sorted


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## trefnantblackknight (9 May 2012)

My 2nd pony took nearly 2 years to settle or get used to me - when i tried him he did buck and did do a small rear and owners were very shocked when he did that! i was a nervous rider! but we still bought him!

He put me in hospital maybe five times and i had countless brusises cuts! 

But now he is the most perfect pony as described in his advert 9 years ago!! 

My mum wanted to sell him or send him back but i was worried what would happen to him as you couldnt even brush/catch him 
!

If your daughter doesn't want to keep the pony .. i would ask the owner to take the pony back and maybe you could set you an agreeement and she pay you back in installemnts or if you need the money to buy another pony go to the courts if they cant pay you back in full!


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## HazyXmas (9 May 2012)

I thought that it was standard practise for bloods to be taken at both 2 & 5 stage vettings?  We've sold 5 ponies over the last 3 years & of the 3 that had vettings, 2 five stage & 1 two stage, bloods were taken from all ponies including a very, very cheapy one.

I would always make sure that my vet took blood, make sure that the seller knows this will be happening & always, always be present at the vetting.

In my experience with DC's they are always honest about ponies but very careful what they say, you will need to ask very direct questions that require a yes/no answer.

Good luck.


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## Patterdale (9 May 2012)

I wouldn't go down the instalments route personally, recipe for disaster IMO


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## PandorasJar (9 May 2012)

I'd say vices are extreme behavioural issues which become incredibly hard to break habits.

I certainly wouldn't call rearing/bucking vices. 

Pan


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## Honey08 (9 May 2012)

From what I understood, OP isn't scared of contacting PC and damaging this woman's reputation - she is saying that the rest of the committee is unlikely to say anything bad about it, and also that some rallies/activities were held on the seller's property, so the pony wouldn't have been in a strange venue or upset...

From seeing the ad, and reading more posts from the OP, I would say its likely to be a case of an inexperienced buyer and a young welsh pony - not a good combination...  I watched a mountain and moorland class at the weekend that was full of napping rearing welshies!  They're gorgeous when behaving, but can be monsters!

I previously mentioned our section A 4yr old, my stepson's first pony.  She would have major tantrums when worried, which would include rearing and backing up..  After a little, the pony really bonded with me and trusted me, so really needed me around at pc rallies etc.  If someone else was leading her she was a nightmare.  As she grew up, she was great off the leadrein, and a fantastic little pony.  When stepson outgrew her, she went on loan to a novice owner (staying on our yard) and again displayed the same behaviour when they went to shows etc.  This time she didn't get the calm, strong handling that we had given her, so the behaviour got really bad, we took her back as I thought the pony was getting ruined.  We schooled her again, then lent her to another novice neighbour to take to a show who was determined to buy her - again the pony was a nightmare.  I went and took over from the mother and the child won the leadrein class on a calm pony.  We refused to sell the pony.  A month later we sold the pony as suitable for a confident novice in an experienced home - which she went to.  They adore her and didn't have a single problem with her.  

I also think that six year olds are at the teenage age, when you do get tested and pushed around if you're not up to them.

It sounds as though you've bought an unsuitable pony really, and I'm sorry for you.  The pony would be fine to sell on if marketed right, and sent to a selling/schooling yard...

I still think the seller should be helping more.


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## Meowy Catkin (9 May 2012)

Honey08, I think that you speak alot of sense.


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## melbiswas (9 May 2012)

What a worrying and frustrating time for you.

My Welsh sec A certainly went thro a "teenage " phase at 6.
Is she in season ? A lady on our yard had a mare that would become unrideable and who would pin you against the wall when in season; a total personality change. After much investigation she was found to have a benign ovarian tumour (off the wall I know but you never know....!)


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## melbiswas (9 May 2012)

Ooops hadn't finished!

The fact that she is not seemingly interested, however, seems to suggest that she is aware of a problem.
We have broken /produced 2 Welshies and a lot of work has gone into them making them suitable riding ponies for children. I would have them back like a shot if I thought that our hard work was being undone!


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## Parker79 (9 May 2012)

I went to view a lovely pony with a friend....very calm, very sweet, nervous...but did everything asked.

3 days later my friend took along someone else...she asked for trot and canter in the school (he wasn't used to this) and he napped, bucked and threatened to rear many times.

He was 7 but was late started so we were treating him as a 5yo....when put under 'pressure' he was frightened, perhaps the pony hasn't done as much as this lady implied

OP - I think the seller should be more helpful, I am not surprised your daughter is frightened....I hope you manage to resolve this.


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## NeverSayNever (9 May 2012)

just wanted to add that i do really sympathise...  i bought myself a fell pony a number of years ago, as a novice adult returning to riding. I hacked it out alone when i tried it out and went and did so 3 times, even cantering across stubble and he was 100% fine!

Got him to the yard after i bought him and not only would he not even stand tied to be groomed or tacked up, he pulled back, broke free, pi&&ed off, broke into a sweat and pranced about...   but once on board he sweated up in minutes and would not walk a single step. 

Im afraid the sellers wanted nothing to do with it - having traced his passport back it turned out the PC experience this pony had was all bull and he had been bought from an old guy who was giving up and had only ever driven him and had him lightly backed  I didnt know a soul in the local horsey world...  had no one to help me so Im afraid i contacted a dealer and sold him to them, for a rather big loss.

I went back there a few weeks later to see if they had anything suitable for me to buy and saw a different person, i was offered this " fantastic model of a fell pony, suitable for a nervous rider" that was in the field...   guess who


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## whirlwind (9 May 2012)

Tinsel Trouble said:



			Can you move to a quieter yard- or try to get lessons on your own- It is a massive ask from you to expect a horse to work in a busy environment in an area they don't know with horses they have never met after 12 hours!
		
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Not really, what about at a show? I expect mine to behave in warm ups ect after she's just come off the wagon, as she should.

However, as posted above, the fact that seller wants nothing to do with it suggests an issue. If any of ours started pissing around after being sold we'd be over like a shot.


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## Louisejane (9 May 2012)

NeversayNever, that sounds like something that would happen to me!!  I do sympathise but that made me chuckle.

I've taken legal advice today and because the owner runs and owns a stud farm where we bought her from I am going to contact trading standards and see if I get anywhere with them.  I have left a message for the DC at the Durham PC and have emailed the seller telling her what I expect.  At the very least I would like her to come and ride the pony to see if it is just nerves and insecurity of a new place and rider.  I feel so bad for the pony, I may even accept an offer of instalments in writing just so she can be back where she is comfortable but then who will buy her next? 

Some of you had mentioned about selling her.  I just wondered how you thought was best to do this?  I simply cannot afford to plow money into reschooling and if this was the route I was willing to take, I would do it for my daughter to keep but she really wont get on her again.  I just feel that if I advertise her now, someone may be interested in a horse that needs time and patience.  She has a fab jump when you get her to work!

I can't exactly write that the pony wants to bury you at every opportunity but I certainly don't want to mislead people and I wouldnt allow her to go to a child.  There must me someone out there who wants a challenge? As my thread proves without a doubt, I am green within the world of horses so I guess I'm asking what would you do?


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## Louisejane (9 May 2012)

whirlwind said:



			Not really, what about at a show? I expect mine to behave in warm ups ect after she's just come off the wagon, as she should.

However, as posted above, the fact that seller wants nothing to do with it suggests an issue. If any of ours started pissing around after being sold we'd be over like a shot.
		
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I couldn't and wouldn't move yards, the owner knew the type of yard we would be keeping her at and said it wouldn't be a problem as she was used to busy situations.  And, as I am not a long term "horsey person" I wouldn't feel confident going it alone, I simply don't know enough, our instructor is great and gives so much help and advice.

I also thought that the seller would be more concerned about her pony.  If she has never displayed any of these behaviours then it shows that she must be truly upset and unsettled to be like this, I couldn't bare the thought of my pony being so distraught and would want her back!


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## Leighb (9 May 2012)

You sound exactly like me a few month ago! I were sold a 'bombproof safe sensible been there done it thoroughbred' got it home and it dragged me everywhere, took 2 of us to get him in and out of the field, lunging him was a nightmare- I currently have 2 broken fingers and 3 chips out of my knuckle! He would rear and buck when ridden. If you tried to pick his back feet up he kicked out. I persevered with him for 4 month and when he broke my fingers I said enough was enough, but I couldn't sell him, when people came to view him they didn't want a bucking rearing horse so I've had to cut my losses and Ive done a swap with a dealer. 
I hope your mare does settle down- its enough to put you off this horsey lark! 
Good luck


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## Clodagh (9 May 2012)

I'm sorry if you have said but did she come with her tack? If not are you 110% sure the saddle isn't hurting? Even if it is I would not expect such behaviour from a school master, but maybe from a 6 year old baby.
As a parent I quite see why you won't let your child on her again, I wouldn't either.
You could take her to a sale and put her through the ring unwarranted? You will get very little money but at least wouldn't have to pay livery any more. She may be bought by someone who wants a project and in experienced hands may well turn out to be fab. (I sold a pony years ago that I had owned a week, for half what I paid for him, and he ended up as a showjumper and worth thousands, but he wasn't a pony for my kids.
Best of luck whgatever you decide. I would try to get your money back first.


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## Louisejane (9 May 2012)

She came with the tack that we trialled her with and our instructor is pretty good with fitting saddles and says it looks fine.  We even tried a different saddle on her just to check and she was okay with that too. 

I'm  going to sound like a complete soft arse here but I don't think I could bare to take her to the sales


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## Littlelegs (9 May 2012)

If it came to selling I'd advertise it as green & needing a confident rider, with the potential to be a good competition pony for a competent teen. I can think of a few teens who would suit it if they were looking. However as a parent I would never allow even the most competent teen to ride a pony the seller wouldn't get on first, so you need to find someone to ride it for viewings. If its truly talented sales livery might be a good option. However, I think it would be better to see if you can get the owners to take it back, but don't allow them to pay you back in installments, I doubt you'd see them again.


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## Honey08 (9 May 2012)

No I wouldn't take her to the sales either.  At the worst, send her to a sales yard and pay a week or two livery if you have to.

Best thing to do is to turn her out for a week or so while you see what your legal angle comes back with...  Hopefully it will sort out that way, as thats the easiest route..


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## xspiralx (9 May 2012)

Louisejane said:



			NeversayNever, that sounds like something that would happen to me!!  I do sympathise but that made me chuckle.

I've taken legal advice today and because the owner runs and owns a stud farm where we bought her from I am going to contact trading standards and see if I get anywhere with them.  I have left a message for the DC at the Durham PC and have emailed the seller telling her what I expect.  At the very least I would like her to come and ride the pony to see if it is just nerves and insecurity of a new place and rider.  I feel so bad for the pony, I may even accept an offer of instalments in writing just so she can be back where she is comfortable but then who will buy her next? 

Some of you had mentioned about selling her.  I just wondered how you thought was best to do this?  I simply cannot afford to plow money into reschooling and if this was the route I was willing to take, I would do it for my daughter to keep but she really wont get on her again.  I just feel that if I advertise her now, someone may be interested in a horse that needs time and patience.  She has a fab jump when you get her to work!

I can't exactly write that the pony wants to bury you at every opportunity but I certainly don't want to mislead people and I wouldnt allow her to go to a child.  There must me someone out there who wants a challenge? As my thread proves without a doubt, I am green within the world of horses so I guess I'm asking what would you do?
		
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I think you have two options OP. The first is to pursue the previous owner for a full refund - and this is the option I would go for first.

If this isn't successful then you can sell the pony. Either with a totally up front ad that explains the situation and advertises the pony as a project - or do a part exchange or sell her to a dealer, who will school her and sell her on. Either way you will lose money with this way though - but it will at least get rid of the pony and you won't have it on your conscience.


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## Fools Motto (9 May 2012)

I'm another one who, if I sold a pony, and it was 'being difficult' and the new owner wanted some help and advice, I'd be over there in a shot to help out. It is in the ponies best interests after all - for the seller that is. If the seller of this pony doesn't seem too concerned/won't or can't help then that really does ring alarm bells for me too. For the seller to suggest it should be lunged first, then on realising it misbehaved owned up to say it has never been lunged - yet they broke it in/had it from 2.... maybe I'm odd, but I thought ''most'' where always started on the lunge/with lines?? Even if it had never been lunged, that doesn't sound like typical 'baby lunging' behaviour to me?! 
If the tack did fit it that badly to warrant the bucking and rearing, then the instructor would easily have seen, and even if it wasn't that bad, yet not perfect, a PONY - unless suffering from chronic kissing spine (more common in horses I believe) should be able to tollerate it without becoming lethal. - That is my opinion. 

Personally, if the daughter were mine at this moment in time, I suggest a quiet plod / stable management at your local riding stables to install some confidence before, with more thought from what she has experienced recently, totally vanishes. 

I really do hope that this is solved PDQ, for yourself, your daughter and the pony.


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## Fools Motto (9 May 2012)

Just to add, without being rude, or being too involved in what may become a court case, is it at all possible to view any videos taken of the pony.... it may highlight to some on here body language regarding pain or naughty behaviour, and some may suggest which route to go down..
Of course, please don't if you are worried it could get messy!!


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## Louisejane (9 May 2012)

Luckily we have a 13 year old adrenaline junkie who loves riding her, she's great and patient with her but isn't afraid of her bucking and rearing.  She manages her great and is getting her to jump lovely, its just the behaviour inbetween.

I've started the legal route now and have given the seller 7 days in which to return the money and accept the pony back or I will take legal steps, either through trading standards or small claims court, I am so mad!  I poured my heart out to this woman and told her what an awful time we had looking for the right pony and she slated dishonest sellers with me.  Grrr, she was probably rubbing her hands together at this point!!

Her last message said "Oh God, I can't believe that she has done that, we've had her everywhere with lots of different riders on her and she's never done anything you've described, I totally understand if you need to sell her on though, I just wish we could buy her back but no longer have the money!"

She also said in one message she sent me that the pony had never bucked, kicked or reared then the next day she said, she can buck sometimes at the whip!  Every pony can buck at the whip but to state she never has then turn around and say she has???


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## Louisejane (9 May 2012)

Fools Motto said:



			Just to add, without being rude, or being too involved in what may become a court case, is it at all possible to view any videos taken of the pony.... it may highlight to some on here body language regarding pain or naughty behaviour, and some may suggest which route to go down..
Of course, please don't if you are worried it could get messy!!
		
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I have already taken some, will get it uploaded asap.


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## Curragh (9 May 2012)

Hope it all works out for you Louisejane, you're living in one of those 'horror' stories that we all hear about....but its all the more worse as childen are involved. Good luck


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## calon (10 May 2012)

It is so easy to think you have been had and misold a pony if things dont go as you thought they would when you get pony home ,and yes there are many missold ponies and horses but also many that are genuinely  sold but then go on to totally change when they move homes for no explicable reason i have seen this happen form ends being both buyer and seller in such cases so can sympathise with both parties ,sadley its common for sellers not to be able to offer to buy back sold animal due to having used the money for something else new pony or debt perhaps so please dont blame seller for this ,as you bought privatley as tried and seen unless you can prove pony was sold as part of a buissness i doubt you would have a leg to stand on and court battles take time and money ,i would try to keep on good terms with the seller seek out references from people who know pony as to its track record of being what she claims it was to put your mind at ease ,then i would ask if they would let you take pony to them back at her old home for the previous jockey to try and see how things go ,if pony better then take home and give her chance to settle ,on the other hand if you really cant cope and she hasnt the money to refund ask the seller if she will take pony home and re sell her for you from where she will be happier and more settled as you deem her unsellable from your place and as she was concerned about right home she would be willing to do so ask her for names of judges pony has been under and instructors theyhave used /had at home and pony club ,i thought add and pony looked genuine  and feel it really is a settleing in problem take it slow if you have to go it alone gie it time go back to lunging with no rider and dont push pony for results too quick let it gain trust and confidence in its new home an surroundings ,you could also try asking on other forums if anyone knows your new ponies background or has seen it out and about  hope things go well


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## Marydoll (10 May 2012)

Louisejane said:



			No, I didn't get a vetting which was a bad move on my part.  

Do bucking, rearing and kicking not count as vices?
		
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BIG MISTAKE..... Especially when something like this happens, if youd had bloods taken they couldve screened for any doping substances.
What your describing doesnt sound like a pony needing a bit more time to settle, what its displaying is dangerous behaviour, sorry bucking and rearing arent vices, but  possibly behaviour problems, or symptoms of a physical issue causing pain. I think youre probably on a sticky wicket with this one unless they agree to take it back, but if theyve stretched the truth in the advert, i doubt they'll take it back.


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## Vanha12 (10 May 2012)

Contrary to what many have said I actually think legally this is a case of misrepresentation.  If you have your vet's backing and can get another expert opinion I would litigate.  An initial solicitors letter is likely  to be all that is required to make her see sense.  If you paid less than £5000 then you will be in small claims court and each side pays their own costs which should be relatively low.  The court room is more like sitting in a judges office and talking through the problem so you don't necessarily need representation.


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## Amymay (10 May 2012)

Vanha12 said:



			Contrary to what many have said I actually think legally this is a case of misrepresentation.  If you have your vet's backing and can get another expert opinion I would litigate.
		
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Oh, I absolutely agree.


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## Marydoll (10 May 2012)

Vanha12 said:



			Contrary to what many have said I actually think legally this is a case of misrepresentation.  If you have your vet's backing and can get another expert opinion I would litigate.  An initial solicitors letter is likely  to be all that is required to make her see sense.  If you paid less than £5000 then you will be in small claims court and each side pays their own costs which should be relatively low.  The court room is more like sitting in a judges office and talking through the problem so you don't necessarily need representation.
		
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I hope youre right for all involved


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## Littlelegs (10 May 2012)

I hope so too.


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## Honey08 (10 May 2012)

If this is likely to go to court, I wouldn't be posting much more on this thread, esepcially videos...  There have been stories on here of it causing problems in legal battles...  I'd try and remove the links to the ad, which links to the seller too..


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## Amos (10 May 2012)

Please let this be a lesson to all that it is VITAL to have blood tests taken when buying a pony. You NEVER know when someone is pulling the wool over your eyes and at least if you end up in this situation you can be 100% sure the pony wasn't being doped. Never risk it when a child rider is involved!

OP it sounds like you are doing the right thing and I hope it works out well for you and the pony. Very difficult when the PC are involved like that - it is a very tight knit community and it is unlikely you would get anyone to speak out against anyone thats involved. Good luck!


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## shandy133 (10 May 2012)

It sounds like a terrible situation....
it sounds to me like the mare has had a totoal change on nature.... but is this really a case of missold? or just an awful situation where this pony is distressed.
I have seen many situations like this, and know how you feel. but i also know how the seller will be feeling - if she is genuine.... if the pony was missold, you would have seen some kind of quirk/bit of bad behaviour showing during your trials... even if it was a just look in her eye, or a reluctance in some way.
i think its best to watch the videos closely, with someone who is totally neutral in the situation... maybe a well know, highly reccommended instructor in your area.

The advert of her looks lovely, with such an extreme change in her nature both on ground and in saddle, how could they "hide" it if she was that good to try but really is naughty? just a thought...

let us know how it gets on, what a shame your duaghter has been put off.


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## Littlelegs (10 May 2012)

It's quite possible for a 6yr old to change in a new home with new owners & a novice child. I have a 23 yr old & a 5 yr old. Both good at home & when we take them out. But while the older will go anywhere with anyone & still be the same pony she is at home, I am pretty sure the 5yr old, in the same circumstances as the ops pony would behave equally badly. Which is why as a genuine person I would happily let the older one go off with a novice child, but I wouldn't dream of doing the same with the 5yr old. Neither of mine being sold anyway, but I think it illustrates how a pony can quickly change, & why the sellers have some responsibility for selling an unsuitable pony. Whether that's morally or legally is yet to be discovered.


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## Honey08 (10 May 2012)

For what its worth, I don't think a blood test would have shown doping - its just a young pony in a new, novice home.  I don't think the pony was sold to a suitable home, or that the previous owners are  being helpful..

OP, at least you've got someone who can ride the pony and show it off if you do need to sell it on... which may well be the case.  That was exactly what we did to sort out our welsh section A dragon - had an older experienced rider get on her and get her working..  This brought her round completely in our situation.  See if you can get your brave 13yr old to do more with her so that she could be sold on as a second pony that jumps etc.


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## Miss L Toe (10 May 2012)

Louisejane said:



			There must me someone out there who wants a challenge? As my thread proves without a doubt, I am green within the world of horses so I guess I'm asking what would you do?
		
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Difficult situation, I would tackle it on several levels:
1] I think you must write to the person who sold you the pony [do you know her name and address] and do you have a receipt, with the letter enclose a copy of the advert, and mention what you have done and how the vendor has responded,  you need to say the pony is not as advertised and is not fit for purpose, and you want your money back plus expenses, remind them they are horse traders. Mention Trading Standards, tel them you will contact TS in seven days if the pony is not removed and expenses plus cost returned [no cheques].
If, at any time the vendor claims this is a PRIVATE sale, threaten to advise Inland Revenue, as they are very keen on hammering people who skim off  profits in this way.
2] Leave the pony in a field if she is settled, you don't want your daughter to be riding it, now or  ever, it seems, but at least she may be able to pat it and stroke it.
3] Trading Standards, yes that is the one port of call.
4] You may be able to ask someone to help with handling the pony, and give you some advice, as it may end up going to a project home, that is to say someone with a lot of experience of dealing with difficult ponies, though it seems to be behaving very badly.
What makes me very suspicious is the time this pony seems to have been for sale, not sure if I have picked up on this accurately. Has it been travelled to  PC and then never competed, weird!


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## Louisejane (10 May 2012)

Thank you again for all your posts.

The key is seeing if I can class her as a business or a private seller as the pony was bought from her premises which is a business in her name.  I'm just not sure how I could prove it was a business.

I have emailed her today to let her know how unhappy her pony is and to ask if she can help in anyway.  Whether its to come to us and have her usual rider take her round the arena to see if it is us or not or to return the money and take her home or sell her on our behalf.  An equine solicitor told me it was better to fight over money rather than go for a mis sold pony in the courts, its just so distressing seeing how unhappy she is.

Trading standards have advised me to send a letter recorded delivery outlining what we bought from her and what she is actually like and to request money back, I have to contact them again if I receive no satisfactory response.

I have contacted the PC which the previous owners family are heavily involved with and the DC said she will see what she can find and get back to me but didn't know off the top of her head.

The pony was absolutely lovely when we trialled her, but its like we have a different pony with us.  The minute she is brought in, she has a look in her eye that you can see she is unhappy and not wanting to do anything.  I honestly can't believe that it is the same pony


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## Louisejane (10 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			What makes me very suspicious is the time this pony seems to have been for sale, not sure if I have picked up on this accurately. Has it been travelled to  PC and then never competed, weird!
		
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I am picking through correspondence now to back it up but I was told in no uncertain terms that she has travelled and competed in PC events.


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## smiggy (10 May 2012)

I absolutely and completely sympathise you, have been missold horses myself and I know how horrible it is.
Once though a few years ago, I bought a pony for my son. It was a little new forest pony, eight but been in same home for five years. I had seen it at pony club events, girl had ADHD and would leap all over it in the stable etc. we tried it there, they brought it to us for my son to try him in the school and he was fab. We paid a lit of money because he was so perfect.
Once he came home hews the evil beast pony from hell 
He was soooo unhappy. Napped for England, couldn't hack him out with another horse or someone on foot or both or either,he just buck reared buck reared up the lane.  Bite all the time, not nips great chunks of flesh if he could. Napped going into the field, napped going out of the field. Basically totally unsuitable in any way as a child's pony. We tried giving him a few weeks to settle but one day he flew from one side of an eight acre. Field to bite my poor Labrador really hard on the back and I just thought enoughs enoughs. They came and picked him up next day. I had obviously been telling them aLl along about the problems we were having . They were very genuine sellers and refunded my money.
Few weeks later pony was resold and exactly the same thing happened. They ended up having him back and loaning him from their premises, where he continued to be a star pony.
So just trying to say that the people might be telling the truth about the pony when they had it. But they should come and see it at yours, witness the behaviour and take pony home, it's not happy, it's. Not what you thought you were buying at all.


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## Louisejane (10 May 2012)

I think its a similar situation, she was just a sweetheart when we viewed her and I think she is just desperately unhappy at leaving her home and people.  It would break my heart to think of my pony being like that with new owners.  All I'm asking for is help from the seller, I would feel better if they came to us and rode her so we could tell for sure if she behaves when she feels secure with her rider and it would then just be a matter of time and patience and building trust.  The vet and our instructor and other "clued up" horsey people are all telling me that that behaviour is too extreme for an unsettled pony which is why I'm not sure what to do.  She certainly isn't fit for purpose though.


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## Amymay (10 May 2012)

OP, pick up the phone and speak to the seller.  Ask her to come over and go from there.


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## Patterdale (10 May 2012)

I think in a situation like this though where things can escalate quite quickly it's better to have everything in writing and recorded. Personally I would stick to letters as you've already spoken to her and got nowhere. If she does come over make sure that there are witnesses or she could say anything has happened/been said


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## Fellewell (10 May 2012)

Not sure if this has been suggested but ask your vet for a couple of sachets of bute and see if the 'sweetheart' returns.


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## horsesatemymoney (10 May 2012)

What a shame, OP, because you sound like a nice, honest owner, who may or may not have been taken advantage of.

I would certainly invite them to come and see/ride the pony; surely if they're genuine and not miles away, they'll do that?

Hope you sort it


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## Kallibear (10 May 2012)

Poor you and poor pony.  

I'll go against the grain and say I don't think she's been 'mis-sold', she's just stressed. 

I suspect that, if you take her back to her old home, she'll turn back into the equine saint straight away. She may well have been everywhere and done everything, and behaved impeccablely BUT she was with _people she knew and trusted._

She doesn't sound like a devil, but a young chestnut welsh mare who's stressed and frightened and not getting the handling and leadership she's used to. Some horses can cope fine with it, others, usually younger or sensitive horses, can't.

It also sounds like she's being pushed too fast for her temperament. The young confident rider is hooney round over jumps when what she probably needs right now is firm, calm and confident handling only, whilst she finds her feet 

I had a welsh X on loan who I did everything and anything with. I then broke my arm (kicked by a friends horse!) and his owner had someone else ride him. The same fabulous-hacking horse, kept at the same yard, with same routine, same tack and doing same routes, dumped the girl three days in a row and put her in hospital. It's was ME who gave him confidence and he didn't have that in his new rider. God knows what he'd have been like if he'd also moved homes!  

It's maybe for the best if you return her, but I really think that, given 6weeks to settle (handling, trust building and malior friends, no ridden work) she'll be that nice quiet pony again.


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## Louisejane (10 May 2012)

Thanks, it looks like I'm left with wait and see and hope she settles or the legal route as she has refused any of my requests.  She wont return the money, she won't sell her for me from her yard, she won't pay me back in instalments and she won't come through and ride her for me either.

Why couldn't my daughter have stuck to "My little Ponies"?


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## Daisy2 (10 May 2012)

I have not read all the replies but.. however I decided to move from my idyillic grass livery to a yard with her buddy too to a yard with school, stables etc, thinking it would be great, horse turned into a nightmare different personalty to the point she was dangerous ie bargy, spinning in the stable etc and she is a big horse, normally a dope on a rope, I needed assistance when turning out etc, normally I could just lead both of them no problems, anyway after 3 weeks I had had enough and moved back, immediately she returned to her normal self and we are happy, that was 3 years ago. You don't have that choice so I would say give her lots of time to settle in and don't bother riding, just get into a routine and try to ignore the bad behaviour and give lots of praise. If she is normally a good sort then she should come good. Good Luck


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## be positive (10 May 2012)

Louisejane said:



			Thanks, it looks like I'm left with wait and see and hope she settles or the legal route as she has refused any of my requests.  She wont return the money, she won't sell her for me from her yard, she won't pay me back in instalments and she won't come through and ride her for me either.

Why couldn't my daughter have stuck to "My little Ponies"? 

Click to expand...


Has she given any reasons for not even coming over and riding her, if only to say she thinks you are wrong, your instructor is clueless, or whatever she could use to say that this much loved pony is now behaving out of character, that would at least give some credibility that the pony was well mannered before you "ruined" her.


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## Tammytoo (10 May 2012)

Fellewell said:



			Not sure if this has been suggested but ask your vet for a couple of sachets of bute and see if the 'sweetheart' returns.
		
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Worth a try!


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## Bikerchickone (10 May 2012)

So sorry to hear what you've been through. Honestly can't believe that someone who supposedly cared so much for their pony won't even come and see her to try to help sort things out. 

However, Trading Standards are really good and really helpful in these situations. I had to contact them regarding a problem with a car dealer and they were great, helped me get my money back. So keep records of everything you do, make notes about each and every contact you've made or attempted with them and what's been said, go back as far as you can properly remember and then at least you'll have plenty of information to help. 

Really hope you can get this sorted out soon.


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## Kallibear (10 May 2012)

The seller is being less than helpful but there is always to sides to a story and look at it from her point of view:

_She sold a really good little pony to a novice who has now completely ruined her. Now to buyer wants her to take the pony back and give the money back (which the seller can't really afford) and fix the problem, at her expense. So she'll be left out of pocket with a ruined pony that she has to do something with. Therefore she want's nothing to do with it all!_

It's quite possible the seller was lying and the pony IS a nightmare, but equally she could see the story as above! Many on here are quick to jump to conlusions and make sellers out to be dodgey.

Either way, you're now stuck with a project pony for a good couple of weeks, either until you sort the problem, or the seller is forced to take her back.

I think you now need to deal with the issues you've got. My very first port of call would be to get out proffesional help (and RA or someone who deals with behavioural issues). It'll only cost you the same a lessons usually. Plenty of people on here could give you recommendations.

I personally would forget all ridden work for now and spent time making friends with the pony. Sort her management so she's spending as much time as possible outside with some nice horsey friends and bring her in every day to practise leading, brushing and just spending time with her. Once she's settled and relaxed, THEN start riding again.


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## smellsofhorse (10 May 2012)

Not read all replys but I can't understand why seller won't come and see and ride pony just to prove you wrong!

She is still young so couldn't have seen and done it all.
She lived with previous owners for 4 years so could genuinely be unsettled and insecure.

You said seller is involved in the pony club. 
Is it your branch?
It's unlikely they would sell a dodgy pony to a local person and potential member of the same branch and risk bad press etc in their reputation.


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## xspiralx (10 May 2012)

The seller is being less than helpful but there is always to sides to a story and look at it from her point of view:

She sold a really good little pony to a novice who has now completely ruined her. Now to buyer wants her to take the pony back and give the money back (which the seller can't really afford) and fix the problem, at her expense. So she'll be left out of pocket with a ruined pony that she has to do something with. Therefore she want's nothing to do with it all!

It's quite possible the seller was lying and the pony IS a nightmare, but equally she could see the story as above!
		
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Agree there can be two sides to every story, but given that the OP has had the pony less than a week and flagged up these problems on the very next day after having purchased the pony, the idea that they may have 'ruined' the pony in the space of one day seems unlikely!

I think it is pretty suspect that she is unwilling to even come and ride the pony for you - I'd pursue the legal route.


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## Arizahn (10 May 2012)

I would get her vetted now and see if there is a physical issue, etc. I would also consult a behaviourist. If she gets the all clear then sell her through a dealer who is able to school her and match her with a suitable home. You may even be able to exchange her for a suitable pony.

Worst case scenario, there actually is something very wrong with this little mare. In which case, you may have to consider veterinary treatment, reschooling or even PTS.

It's fairly obvious that the seller won't be interested either way, so I'm afraid you just have to deal with what you have now.


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## JessPickle (10 May 2012)

I'd get bloods run and try and get her returned asap.  I'd say you want your money back less £100 for there inconvenience or something, make it sounds like a good deal.  Your better off loosing £100 than putting your daughter at risk.

This whole takes a while to settle lark really bugs me, my boy was bought as a novice horse, he was perfect from day 1.  As expected.  Genuinely laid back horses don't tend to have sudden freak outs in my opinion.


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## ladyt25 (10 May 2012)

Personally I believe rearing IS a vice - it would certainly come under that in my book. Not sure how tyou can distinguish rearing as a "behavioural issue" and the likes of windsucking/weaving etc as a vice? Weaving and windsucking are also behavioural issues as are generally due to stress. I would put rearing under the same heading. In my mind a vice is any type of behaviour that is not within general acceptable horse behaviour/desired traits.

I do find it very odd the pony behaved impeccably when you trialled it (and you do seem to have given it a decent trial) so either it is donw to pure upset at the move, pain or the pony was drugged to some degree. Most odd - I have never known of a pony to act like this to be honest, it seems very extreme. 

My friend has some lovely ponies for sale who are LR types but lovely all round ponies (still young so still need some work I guess) but she would I am sure, take them back if the purchaser was not happy with them after such a short time. Such a shame not all vendors are the same.


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## Meowy Catkin (10 May 2012)

Personally I believe rearing IS a vice
		
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Rearing is a natural equine behaviour.





(Any excuse and I'll post a photo!  )

It is an undesirable behaviour when ridden because it is dangerours. You can make many horses rear by putting them in a badly fitting saddle or pulling on the reins and kicking them on hard at the same time (I've seen horses that _never_ rear when ridden, go up vertical when badly ridden as described).





			Genuinely laid back horses don't tend to have sudden freak outs in my opinion.
		
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The pony is young and has spent most of her life in the same home, this is not the same as an old schoolmaster. 



I am definately giving the _pony_ the benifit of the doubt here. I do believe that the seller should be more willing to help, but that's not the pony's fault.
A vice is a stereotypical behaviour.


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## dunkley (10 May 2012)

The term 'vice' will have a legal definition, and unfortunately rearing, bucking and the like are _not_ vices.  The 'vices' referred to in a sales scenario are _stable_ vices, not behavioural issues - whether they are learned, or develop due to pain, they _aren't_ vices when it comes to the definition in a sales situation.

I do feel for you, so many things are not quite ringing as they perhaps should be.
If the sellers had her from a two year old, of course she should have been lunged/long reined.  I cannot think of anyone who breaks and schools a youngster without it, especially from the background these sellers have.
I cannot understand why the seller won't help you, or have anything more to do with the pony.  If she really was so loved, they would be there like a shot - I know I would.  I wouldn't be in a position to refund money on the private sale of one of mine, but I would do my damnedest to sort the problem out, either to settle the pony with it's new owner/rider or helping to sell it on, hopefully to others who were interested first time round.  That is just _so_ odd.


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## lhotse (10 May 2012)

Faracat said:



			Rearing is a natural equine behaviour.





(Any excuse and I'll post a photo!  )




.
		
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Not related to the thread, but is rearing in the field an arab thing? My new mare rears with her front legs out straight, I think she wants to audition for the next remake of The Lord of the Rings!!

With relation to the thread, I have had my young mare for just under 2 months now, and although she didn't misbehave like the OP's pony, I can see how much more settled she is with me now, following me around the field and generally acting like 'my' horse now rather than a stranger. She started to test the boundries after a couple of weeks, rearing a couple of times when asked to do something she didn't want to do, and messing around whilst being led. I kept calm, and consistent and now she is calm and consistent. I think that the pony is definitely stressed out, and that maybe a week of just bringing the pony in to be groomed, and fussed over without the added stress of being ridden could prove invaluable. The 13yr old may be fearless, but is she really helping matters if she is jump, jump? What is needed is a settled pony, not one who is expecting to bomb around the arena everytime it's ridden. I would give the pony a chance to settle into it's new routine and new people first.


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## happyhacking:) (11 May 2012)

Haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this has already been said. How well died the horse travel? Is it possible she slipped in the trailer and has hurt herself? Sound like a pain reaction to me.


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## Louisejane (11 May 2012)

Well aside from the previous owner being about as helpful as a chocolate fireguard, we have had an improvement!  

We spent ages with her last night, she was laid in the field looking as miserable as sin when we turned up and I just felt absolutely rotten for her.  She couldn't even be bothered to get up when I reached her   So we spent a lot of pampering time with her, talking and grooming and just sypamthising with her I guess.  

Our braveheart 13 year old has taken such a shine to her and asked if she could work slowly with her, so she took her into the arena and stood with her and watched while other riders worked with their horses.  When she rode her she had no whip and just took things easy.  She was lovely!!  No rearing or bucking, no stresses and the biggest thing was she had lost that "look in her eye", not a hint of whiteness showing.  They just had fun!! She popped a couple of small crosspoles and thoroughly praised her throughout for her great behaviour.

I know its not problem solved just yet but its a huge leap forward and I feel so relieved that it does look like a matter of a very unsettled little pony.  She looked to actually enjoy herself last night though so hopefully she is gradually getting accustomed to her new surroundings.

I'm still miffed at the OS for the lack of help or assistance, she could have made things easier for us and the poor pony but I'm hoping now that there is promise of a nice future for the poor thing.


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## Amymay (11 May 2012)

Sounds like a step forward.


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## Honey08 (11 May 2012)

Good.  Poor little thing was obviously a scared little baby lashing out.  I feel sorry for her.  Sounds like you have a gem of a helper there, who will be a great horsewoman one day.


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## Louisejane (11 May 2012)

She's one to keep an eye on!  She has just the right balance of bravery and respect!


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## be positive (11 May 2012)

It sounds promising and the pony you thought you bought may come back with the help you are getting, take it slowly now and your daughters confidence, when she watches  should gradually come back.
The sellers attitude has been so unhelpful in every way, the poor pony has obviously missed out on parts of her education, it may also be worth doing some ground work, lungeing and long reining to establish the basics as you go forward with her. Almost treating her as a barely backed youngster, it will mean less expectations and take away the pressure on everyone involved.


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## Flummoxed (11 May 2012)

I've been following your thread with sympathy for both you and the pony. While I don't have the experience to offer advice, I can understand how a pony can be so overwhelmed by a dramatic change in her life and am encouraged to read your latest thread.

I bought a (much older) pony who was also uprooted from all he had known and it took a good while to gain his confidence. Having said that, I didn't encounter the behaviour that you have.

Good luck.


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## Littlelegs (11 May 2012)

I'm glad it looks like being resolved for you.


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## jofwigby (11 May 2012)

Sooooo pleased - I think everyone on here was rooting for you - have loads of fun.


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## Amymay (11 May 2012)

Lets have a photo of the little love.


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## EmmaB (11 May 2012)

Glad to hear things are improving! I second the request for a picture 

Hopefully it was just a settling in issue. I bought my horse when he was 14, I'd loaned him for a year and a half before hand so I thought I knew him inside and out, but moved yard when I bought him and for the first week I was really shocked, he acted like a totally different horse. He's the most chilled out horse ever usually and not exactly young so any horse can act out of character when settling in!


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## Clippy (11 May 2012)

It reminds me of a pony we bought a few years ago. My friend owned the livery yard where this pony was kept and told me how safe and steady she was, all the kids rode and loved her etc, etc, etc.

Once she came to us, she wouldn't go in the arena, she napped, spun, bucked and even reared to avoid going in there. We led her in then remounted and she was very naughty, spooking and zooming off, tried to put her head down and unload my daughter, she wouldn't hack out, all she wanted to do was turn round and go back to the yard at speed. In the stable, all she wanted to do was barge out. It got so bad that in the end I rang the friend who owned the yard where the pony had come from, I couldn't believe how many lies he'd told.

A couple of weeks down the line, I noticed a change in the pony which was basically just left and not ridden. Eventually this little lad asked for a "go" and she was an absolute poppet, never put a foot wrong and turned out to be a dream pony that any child could manage. It must just have been the change of scenary and she didn't know where she was.

I suppose the worst part was that I lost a friend (the yard owner) and although I did eventually ring and apologise and tried to explain, we never were as friendly after.


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## Louisejane (11 May 2012)

That's awful, I'm so sorry for your friend, it brings home how real the dangers of riding can be 

The 13 year old isn't allowed to ride her without the instructor or her Mum there, she just loves her and has fought her corner ever since she arrived with us which I am so grateful for.  It is paying off though, her patience is eventually bringing her out of her shell and back to a rideable pony at least, not exactly a ray of sunshine just yet but hopefully getting there.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (11 May 2012)

Where are you based? I know people who enjoy reschooling ponies like this!


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## Louisejane (11 May 2012)

North Yorkshire 

Just had a lovely text from the previous owner saying that she is unwilling to help us as she has just had my request in writing to return the money or face legal action and she will not be threatened.  She has already refused before she received this   She also said that it would be the owner before her would be the point of contact.  Apparantly, she took this pony from a breeder who was unable to show her because of a scar on her leg.  He loaned the pony to her at the age of 2 to break and school and she has passed the money I paid her for the pony straight onto him.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (11 May 2012)

You are a while away from me! Thats a shame I love coming to ride problem horses and ponies! Do you know someone experienced near you who can try and reschool it for you? At least enough to be able to sell it or tell its previous owners you had a go!

Old owner sounds like they have something to hide tbh! Genuine people are normally willing to have the horse back! People who try and avoid legal action are the ones to watch! Not seen it this bad over a first pony type before though!


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## Amymay (11 May 2012)

Doesn't sound as if this pony needs re-schooling.......


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## be positive (11 May 2012)

Thats an interesting new twist, whose name is on the passport?


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## Nightmare before Christmas (11 May 2012)

Then what does it need? If it cannot be ridden then it needs something doing?


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## Kallibear (11 May 2012)

That's such a relief. 

It can be easy to underestimate how frightening and stressful a change of home and people can be for a pony 

Give her time, kindness and patience and she should come right. You pushed her too fast initially (most ponies would have coped fine but she obviously can't) and she felt the need to fight back, so let it be a lesson in the future. 

Take it slowly for the next couple of weeks (although that does NOT mean letting her walk all over you!) and you'll soon have your nice little pony back.


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## *Maddy&Occhi* (11 May 2012)

I've been following your story, really happy to hear that things are moving forward. Everyone was vouching for you. Sounds to be just a very frightened, unsettled little pony. She's very lucky to have someone like you who is putting her first. You should be proud of yourself 

Keep us posted, really hope she progresses even further. I think in a few months time, with careful management, she'll go back to being the little pony you first tried out.

Shame about the previous owners, you would think after the story they sold you they would want to help. Sounds like you dont need them now anyway 

All the very best
xx


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## Amymay (11 May 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Then what does it need? If it cannot be ridden then it needs something doing?
		
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It would appear that it can be ridden, and successfully too.

Having followed this thread through to its (almost) conclusion, I've come to think that it's extreme behaviour has been based on its change in home - and quite possibly the inexperience of the OP (no offence intended OP).

The pony has now had a little time to settle, and has been ridden happily by a young girl who is described as a competent little rider.

I think in a couple of weeks time this pony will be just fine.  And the OP simply needs to continue handling and getting to know this pony.  Allowing her to settle, and having the 13 year old continue working it.  Then it will be time for the OP's daughter to start getting on and quietly getting to grips with her new pony.


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## *Maddy&Occhi* (11 May 2012)

amymay said:



			It would appear that it can be ridden, and successfully too.

Having followed this thread through to it's (almost) conclusion, I've come to think that it's extreme behaviour has been based on it's change in home - and quite possibly the inexperience of the OP (no offence intended OP).

The pony has now had a little time to settle, and has been ridden happily by a young girl who is described as a competent little rider.

I think in a couple of weeks time this pony will be just fine.  And the OP simply needs to continue handling and getting to know this pony.  Allowing her to settle, and having the 13 year old continue working it.  Then it will be time for the OP's daughter to start getting on and quietly getting to grips with her new pony.
		
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Totally agree with you


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## Littlelegs (11 May 2012)

Yes, think amymay has summed it up quite nicely.


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## Kallibear (11 May 2012)

And ditto anymay. Pony doesn't sound like need reschooling. She needs time to settle and relax. Forceing her to do more work will prob do her more harm than good! She'll learn to use the behaviours she's trying out.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (11 May 2012)

I did see that someone is ridding it but it does sound like there is still problems. When I say reschooling I am thinking a more experienced or professional rider to school the pony both at home and away if needed until it suits the purpose it was purchased for. Ive never had a problem with an unsettled horse due to a change of home in all the years ive been buying and producing young horses and ponies! Sounds more like a covered up problem to me that can be sorted via schooling and work


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## Amymay (11 May 2012)

badgermyers said:



			I did see that someone is ridding it but it does sound like there is still problems. When I say reschooling I am thinking a more experienced or professional rider to school the pony both at home and away if needed until it suits the purpose it was purchased for. Ive never had a problem with an unsettled horse due to a change of home in all the years ive been buying and producing young horses and ponies! Sounds more like a covered up problem to me that can be sorted via schooling and work
		
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I've always found that it takes a horse time to settle in a new home.  Some behaviours are more extreme than others - and granted this behaviour was extreme.  But most will be unsettled in some way or another.  The key is how we deal with it - and obviously the more experience you have the better.

So, on that basis I would say that adding another complication in to the mix would be too much for this pony at the moment.  And certainly sending it away for schooling could well end in disaster.

My feeling is that the quiet and gentle approach is the key to this one.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (11 May 2012)

Fair enough. I was thinking more the longer its left the less chance of the previous owner taking it back. If they know you are doing nothing with it then its easier to put that forward as the reason for the behaviour than if you are trying to improve it with little success. Thats what I would be doing. Everyone has different opinions


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## NeverSayNever (11 May 2012)

Louisejane said:



			North Yorkshire 

Just had a lovely text from the previous owner saying that she is unwilling to help us as she has just had my request in writing to return the money or face legal action and she will not be threatened.  She has already refused before she received this   She also said that it would be the owner before her would be the point of contact.  Apparantly, she took this pony from a breeder who was unable to show her because of a scar on her leg.  He loaned the pony to her at the age of 2 to break and school and she has passed the money I paid her for the pony straight onto him.
		
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i would keep/print that text as proof as this is sounding fishier and fishier by the minute

really really glad to hear the pony seems more settled with the other young girl and hope you get some resolution either way.

See you are in ~North Yorks - have you contacted Helen Bell at all?


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## Amymay (11 May 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Fair enough. I was thinking more the longer its left the less chance of the previous owner taking it back. If they know you are doing nothing with it then its easier to put that forward as the reason for the behaviour than if you are trying to improve it with little success. That's what I would be doing. Everyone has different opinions 

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But they are doing something with it.  It's being handled daily, and now ridden.

And providing the OP keeps a record of it's behaviour, and has witnesses to anything untowards, then the this won't prevent any action being taken should things not improve or if they deteriorate.


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## Littlelegs (11 May 2012)

Again, agree with amymay. I'd add that even getting an experienced adult to ride it at the current yard isn't necessarily best for this pony. The riding style of a competent 13yr old is much closer to the ops daughter than that of an experienced adult. The transistion between two young girls will be a lot easier than that between a heavier experienced adult & a novice child.


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## YorksG (11 May 2012)

I have found that mares take longer to settle than geldings and that some will take a long time to feel entirely comfortable. We never ride a new one for at least a week, as we feel that change of surroundings, herd members, handlers and routine is quite as much as they need to cope with at the very start.
I would also think that this pony picked up the new owners in-experience and nerves and that worried her. I am also a little bothered that such a young animal was jumped in its first time ridden in a new home. What the problem is in taking time to get to know the animal slowly I don't understand.
This is not aimed at the OP but I do wish that people would remember that they are not furry bikes, but a living breathing social animal.


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## Inthemud (11 May 2012)

If you do find yourself taking the seller to court (which I very much hope you don't have to), it will count strongly against her that she refused to help in even the most reasonable way.

Make sure you keep records/ copies of anytime that she refuses this.


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## Franob (11 May 2012)

OP, have you spoken the the 'real' owner at all - the breeder that loaned this pony out? If I was in your situation I would want to speak to that person - firstly to corroborate the 'sellers' story of her personality etc and the passing of the monies. But mainly to check that she did have the legal right to sell her.

I'm sorry, but the first thing that screamed at me from the changing story was that it would be very easy for this woman to have sold on a loan pony without the owners knowledge/consent. I don't see why she wouldn't have mentioned this previously if it was all above board - it wouldn't have put anyone off if it is a genuine story and could be checked out. 

It sounds like your pony is coming good, which is wonderful, but having said that her latest 'reason' makes her more akin to a dealer - think of a sales livery - especially when you consider she is a stud etc already.

I would hate to see you do the work to settle her in, get attached and then find an issue of ownership rearing its head.


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## Caol Ila (11 May 2012)

I agree.  This latest text makes it sound really dodgy.  I'd contact the alleged "owner."  If I had a horse given to me on loan or consignment or whatever for training and then selling, informing potential buyers that I wasn't the owner seems like one of those critical pieces of information that should be passed on.  Conversely, if I bought a horse from someone who I *thought* was the owner and then learned weeks after I brought the horse home that they weren't, I'd be a little concerned.  It is also a little bit worrying that the story seems to be rapidly changing in response to behaviour problems on the part of the pony and threats of legal action on your part.

Who's name is on the passport?


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## Amymay (11 May 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			Who's name is on the passport?
		
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How is this relevant?


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## Honey08 (11 May 2012)

Even if she wasn't helpful, and is doing all she can to just get you off her back, it doesn't sound as though she was lying - the pony, as it has more time to settle, is turning out to be the pony that was sold, not a raving monster, just a sad, scared little thing that was pushed too far too soon in its new home.  I don't think this would win now if it went to court..  Better to focus on the way forward, not the way back.


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## Caol Ila (11 May 2012)

I'm not from here so I may have to claim ignorance.  All I know for sure about passports was that I had to get one when my horse had been in the UK for 30 days and my vet signs it when he vaccinates her.

Anyway, I thought that in addition to a vaccination history, they showed the current and previous owners of the horse.  Am I wrong?  I've never bought a horse in Britain so I haven't a clue if you would transfer the name on one or whatever.


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## Amymay (11 May 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			I'm not from here so I may have to claim ignorance.  All I know for sure about passports was that I had to get one when my horse had been in the UK for 30 days and my vet signs it when he vaccinates her.

Anyway, I thought that in addition to a vaccination history, they showed the current and previous owners of the horse.  Am I wrong?  I've never bought a horse in Britain so I haven't a clue if you would transfer the name on one or whatever.
		
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A passport is not proof of ownership.


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## Miss L Toe (11 May 2012)

amymay said:



			How is this relevant?
		
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If the person you gave the money to [eeks], who first told you she had spent it , now says it was not her pony to sell !!!!! just make sure you ignore her response.
 She is the person with whom you had a legal contract at the time of purchase, even if she is acting as an agent, there is no way she can wriggle out of her culpability.
Perhaps you could tell us the postcode!!!
Passport is not PROOF of ownership, legally, but it is a good guide as to history, as it should be altered when horse moves around.
You should advise the Inland Revenue of her activities, but wait for a few months as she can backtrack at this stage, it is quite likely she has used this "excuse" before with other ponies, I suspect if this is the case you will not get any update from the PC people.
As a trader she should have charged VAT, even on commission, I suspect she asked for CASH, Customs and Excise will be ecstatic!


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## NeverSayNever (11 May 2012)

given the pony is a sec c, the passport will require a signature from the actual owner in order to transfer ownership, hmmmm


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## Miss L Toe (11 May 2012)

NeverSayNever said:



			given the pony is a sec c, the passport will require a signature from the actual owner in order to transfer ownership, hmmmm
		
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Maybe, but only if the cob is registered, OP is not an experienced purchaser of Welsh Cobs. I do a good signature of my Dad!


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## NeverSayNever (11 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Maybe, but only if the cob is registered, OP is not an experienced purchaser of Welsh Cobs. I do a good signature of my Dad!
		
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of'c only if its registered...   i meant it as a point of leverage for the OP


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## Miss L Toe (11 May 2012)

NeverSayNever said:



			of'c only if its registered...   i meant it as a point of leverage for the OP

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Yes, I know, but unless OP wants to go to court, and I don't think many people would want to [this is what the "seller" is banking on], imho OP is best NOT to get involved in argy bargy, the horse was represented as for sale by the person who showed her the pony.
What I am saying is, that there will be one of two outcomes, the most likely is that OP will keep pony and will either have to sell/give it away, or will keep it. The second outcome is that she goes to court, in order to re-coup expenses and get shot of pony.
In my opinion IF she wants to get rid of the pony, and it may come to that, the best route is to threaten with IR and VAT man. AND if she wants to  "get back" at  "seller" she should inform Customs and Excise and IR. This will stop them doing this to other people, believe me, it will.


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## Louisejane (11 May 2012)

Firstly, I'm agreed on taking the softly softly approach, The 13 year old has agreed and really wants to work with my daughter so that they can gently work with her.  My daughter is going to spend lots of time with her on the ground and we'll just see where we get.  TBH, given what my daughter has seen, I'm not even 100% sure that she will ever want her to  be her first pony as the confidence issue will always be there, there are times in the future when she will need to be strong with her and theres a good chance that she'll always be scared of kicking her on or using a whip incase this weeks behaviour happens again.  Having said that, if she does "come good" over time, I can always look for an experienced home that will take the time to settle her in before riding her.  

We would never have ridden her the day after she arrived had the previous owner not advised us to.  She said the sooner the better as she likes to work and is very accustomed to being in different environments.

The passport does not have the previous owners name on!  It has one name on who I assume is the breeder.  The date of transfer was 2007 but there is no new owner name entered?  Just gets stranger to me.  

What I do find odd is the vaccination record, there is yearly records from 2010 for tet and flu but they all say that the location was Paddock Hall, Morpeth???  Do I get my detective cap on and call them?


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## be positive (11 May 2012)

This gets more complicated if she was sold by the breeder in 2007 she must be owned by someone during the time since, is the passport signed and stamped by the WPCS, she was only a yearling then. I assume Morpeth is not where you bought her from, where was she for her most recent jab and when was it?

The vets will not give out info on owners so probably not a route you can use but may tell your vet who and where the pony was at the time.  
It is possible she was either sold from the ad as a 4 year old or been on loan during the last year or two and just come back to be sold but the story still does not add up there are too many loose ends.


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## Louisejane (11 May 2012)

No, Morpeth is not where we bought her from.  The previous owner told me that she loaned her directly from the breeder in Dec 2007 and she has been with her since.

Paddock farm is an equestrian centre that also buys and sells horses from what I can see.  Just tried calling them now and theres no answer but I'll keep on trying.

On her passport it has her registered name, foaled in May 2006  and signed by The Welsh Pony & Cob Society dated Nov 2006 and the breeder and owners name is the same as is on the transfer of ownership in December 2007.


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## be positive (11 May 2012)

I have just looked and see that it is an Equestrian centre, so phone them and see if they can tell you more about her.


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## Louisejane (11 May 2012)

Sorry, forgot to add that the only medical history on there is for Flu and tet in 2010, and then in 2011, all at this Paddock Hall, Morpeth.


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## be positive (11 May 2012)

Sorry cross posted, keep trying there is something wrong here and the more info the better, whichever way you go.


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## Louisejane (11 May 2012)

Its certainly teaching me to do my homework first next time!!


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## Meowy Catkin (11 May 2012)

lhotse said:



			Not related to the thread, but is rearing in the field an arab thing? My new mare rears with her front legs out straight, I think she wants to audition for the next remake of The Lord of the Rings!!

.
		
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In order of 'loving to rear' my old retired TB comes top. She can walk along on her back legs if she's particually excited.  

Then the grey, who needed alot of training when she was a yearling because she would rear when you tried to lead her back to her field.  However, she's being backed ATM and has never shown any signs (so far) of rearing under saddle.

My chestnut mare (anglo arab) much prefers to buck when she's having a good hooley, infact I've never seen her rear loose. It is very easy to make her rear under saddle however, through bad 'handy' riding. She will also rear if pressured too much when going past a scary object ('I don't want to go past it, but you're kicking me on, so I'll go up instead'), so knowing when to just wait and let her have a moment, before asking again, is important.

My chestnut gelding isn't a rearer - he's a prancer  but as he's only two, I've no idea how he'll be under saddle.




Louisejane said:



			Well aside from the previous owner being about as helpful as a chocolate fireguard, we have had an improvement!  

We spent ages with her last night, she was laid in the field looking as miserable as sin when we turned up and I just felt absolutely rotten for her.  She couldn't even be bothered to get up when I reached her   So we spent a lot of pampering time with her, talking and grooming and just sypamthising with her I guess.  

Our braveheart 13 year old has taken such a shine to her and asked if she could work slowly with her, so she took her into the arena and stood with her and watched while other riders worked with their horses.  When she rode her she had no whip and just took things easy.  She was lovely!!  No rearing or bucking, no stresses and the biggest thing was she had lost that "look in her eye", not a hint of whiteness showing.  They just had fun!! She popped a couple of small crosspoles and thoroughly praised her throughout for her great behaviour.

I know its not problem solved just yet but its a huge leap forward and I feel so relieved that it does look like a matter of a very unsettled little pony.  She looked to actually enjoy herself last night though so hopefully she is gradually getting accustomed to her new surroundings.

I'm still miffed at the OS for the lack of help or assistance, she could have made things easier for us and the poor pony but I'm hoping now that there is promise of a nice future for the poor thing. 

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I am so glad to read this. Well done for not giving up on her. I hope that with time she feels totally secure with you and that your daughter gets the lovely sweet pony back that you tried. Please keep us updated and as Amymay said, a photo would be nice.


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## Miss L Toe (11 May 2012)

Louisejane said:



			Its certainly teaching me to do my homework first next time!!
		
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It matter little, if someone is out to  "do you" they will have answers to everything you ask.


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## Patterdale (11 May 2012)

Sounding fishier than Seaworld.....can you talk to the breeder/'real' owner?


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## Louisejane (11 May 2012)

I've just spoken to the breeder and they confirmed that they SOLD her in 2007 as a yearling but is calling me back when she has the details of the person they sold her to.


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## Patterdale (11 May 2012)

Ok...but surely if they've sold her then why would the woman say shed handed the money straight to them? 
She sounds VERY dodgy - my bullcrap radar would be on high!

FWIW OP I agree with the above poster - you can do all the homework you like but if someones out to do you then they will have all the answers ready


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## Patterdale (11 May 2012)

....so don't be too hard on yourself!


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## Louisejane (11 May 2012)

Well, if the breeder confirms she was sold on then the original owner has already lied to me about being on loan.  Its more likely that she has been sold on a few times since the breeder but will have to wait and see.

I'm quickly turning from one of those people who see no reason for others to lie which is a shame for me, the bad are always the minority, they are just attracted to the mug sign on my forehead


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## Louisejane (11 May 2012)

It does help hearing everyones stories, even experienced people can have the wool pulled over their eyes, which I wouldn't wish on anyone but it does reassure me.


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## PeterNatt (11 May 2012)

The veterinary practice or vet would be obliged to divulge the name and contact details of the person who had instructed them to vacinate the horse if a crime is thought to have been commited.


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## Kallibear (11 May 2012)

It'll be interesting to get to the bottom of the issue, but it's not going to help the pony. I suspect that, even armed with evidence, you'll need to take legal action against the seller to get anywhere. 

The seller might be scum of the earth but it's shouldn't reflect on the pony. By the sound of it you're getting the nice sweet little horse back now she's settling and, despite all the cloak and dagger nonsense, you'll have a nice pony for a decent price. 

As for your daughter gaining confidence, it'll come. As she gets to know the pony better, she'll start to trust her. Your little 13yr old rider can deal with any imminent temper tantrums (they WILL happen, they always do) until your daughter is confident enough to do it herself.


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## Fellewell (11 May 2012)

you say in your OP that you trialled her twice at her owners.

Were you led to believe that this 'agent' was the owner, because this would certainly negate their obligation for full and frank disclosure regarding her history.

As Peter Natt says contact the vet, their practice stamp should be next to the jabs in her passport.


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## Dexter (11 May 2012)

I'm local to all of this I think. I dont recognise the pony particularly, but I bet I know someone who does! Do you want to PM me the sellers details and I'll have an ask about on the quiet see what I can find out?


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## Louisejane (11 May 2012)

I can't remember the exact wording used but she told me that she got/aquirred her from the breeder who couldn't show her.  It is only since she has arrived with us that she divulged this info.  She never implied that the Pony wasn't hers at anytime or I would of course have queried it.

Dexter, many thanks, will PM you


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