# Docking ban, Desparate news for working dogs in Scotland!



## DiNorth (8 February 2007)

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2007/02/07102500

The Scottish Executive announced yesterday that there will be NO exemption from the docking ban for working dogs. 
Therefore from 30th April 2007 TAIL DOCKING OF ALL DOGS IS BANNED IN SCOTLAND 

Many people have given up much of their own time to help fight this ban, collecting data, lobbying members of parliament, as well as advising others how to do so. I would like to extend a huge thankyou to all those who bothered to take the time to try to make a difference. Many of these do not even reside in Scotland yet still feel strongly enough to support us. This does not mean that we are giving up! If this ridiculous ban is ever to be overturned, we still need as much hard evidence (photos, vets reports and the like) as possible to show that undocked working dogs do incur injury to their tails! 
  So if anyone actually does still care please do not give up. Carry on fighting for the welfare of these loyal working animals, to prevent future injury to long tailed working dogs.
Diane


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## severnmiles (8 February 2007)

How bloody ridiculous!


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## GinaB (8 February 2007)

We've had the docking ban over here for years. My dog was sent down south to get her tail done. Purely for looks though. When it's for a practical purpose (working dogs) and it's done properly I have no problem with it


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## Maesfen (8 February 2007)

Another working party that doesn't know the first thing about what they're discussing; a great shame for the dogs.

Is there anything to stop you taking or keeping a docked dog into Scotland or to put it another way, to bring pups over the border to be docked and then taken back again?! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  Hopefully, like the hunting ban, you will be able to find gaping great holes!  I do hope so for the dogs.


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## Sooty (8 February 2007)

Sorry, but why should working dogs be exempt? Gun dogs work, but are not docked! Docking originated for tax reasons, and is barbaric and unnecessary.


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## severnmiles (8 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but why should working dogs be exempt? Gun dogs work, but are not docked! Docking originated for tax reasons, and is barbaric and unnecessary. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes they are, how many working springers and pointers are left with whole tails?  When I used to go beating there was one little springer who didn't have a docked tail, it was always bright red with blood.

You must have an understanding of gun dogs and working terriers and what they do to see the need of why they should be docked.


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## Sooty (8 February 2007)

Sorry, I meant retrievers. D'oh!


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## DiNorth (8 February 2007)

Not all working dogs require tail docking. Retrievers/ Lab types use their tails in a different manner to spaniel types. Although more often worked in the open Labs &amp; the like have a very different tail carriage &amp; movement to that of the spaniel types. The spaniels tails thrash so vigorously that damage from hunting through cover can cause amazing damage to a long tail! Once damaged, the tail injury takes a long time to heal due to the natural movement &amp; behaviour of the animal. Often the injury re-occurs &amp; can lead to further health problems. I do not agree with tail docking for cosmetic reasons, but purely for the welfare of the animal &amp; the prevention of unnecessary suffering. Tail docking of a mature animal after injury is a major operation &amp;does not ensure a perfect recovery. However the docking of a pup is not performed in" barbaric" way, a local anaesthetic is used prior to the procedure &amp; recovery is almost immediate. Prevention is better than cure &amp; I for one would sooner have a happy healthy spaniel than one with a bleeding infected tail, just because a government ministers &amp; their advisers refuse listen to the facts from the owners of these dogs &amp; choose to selectively sift through so called scientific evidence.
Diane


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## GinaB (8 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Another working party that doesn't know the first thing about what they're discussing; a great shame for the dogs.

Is there anything to stop you taking or keeping a docked dog into Scotland or to put it another way, to bring pups over the border to be docked and then taken back again?! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  Hopefully, like the hunting ban, you will be able to find gaping great holes!  I do hope so for the dogs. 

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly what happens here. Dogs are sent off down to Eire and done. Although I know someone who just bought a JR pup off a farmer and he'd done them himself. Although he's probably been doing it years and it's a lovely wee neat tail and healed beautifully


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## airedale (8 February 2007)

the real problem lies in the fact that out of every litter of puppies of particular breeds born - how do you know which ones will never see a pheasant or whatever and which ones will

I can see both sides of this argument as I breed Airedales and I won't dock them as nowadays it is unnecessary for them and also the KC breed standard permits either docked or undocked and an imported/foreign undocked Airedale has done very well at Crufts.

After having grown up with airedales all my life it took some getting used to for the long tails but they are fine with it and it does mean that the dog certainly has a 'waggy tail'

however I'm surrounded by a shoot and the working spaniels do get tail injuries 

One thing that does seem to help though is if the tail is clipped out to remove the hair - it makes it much easier to spot a bramble thorn or whatever before it causes more infection

I lose sales of puppies due to people not wanting undocked - even though I'm only selling pet quality (except a few have gone showing at their local level and done well and the puppy I retained my vet says is show quality but I haven't got the time).

Dockign will soon be banned in England as well so that isn't a route round it

How do USA gundogs manage as they havent' had docking for a while if I recall correctly ?


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## Maesfen (8 February 2007)

I've yet to meet anyone around here who docks their own dogs make anything but a quick neat job tbh.  If done correctly, quickly and cleanly, the pups tend to make no more fuss than they do about having dewclaws done which is zilch!  I do however agree that there is no need just for cosmetic purposes but working dogs are an entirely different matter and it should be done within days of being born, any later then they should be done by a vet under anesthetic.  
But that is just my view, I don't expect everyone to share it!


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## GinaB (8 February 2007)

Well, obviously I didn't see it being done but it's a nice tidy wee tail he's been left with. 
I do agree with you as well though. If I had a choice where my shnauzer was concerned I wouldn't of had her docked. Don't particularly like the tail, but that's not the point.


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## Tia (8 February 2007)

My little spaniel has a long undocked tail.  She works pretty much every day, running around in our woods flushing out birds and wildlife and we have a tonne of brambles and dense undergrowth.  She rarely injures herself, in fact I honestly can't think of any time she has  
	
	
		
		
	


	




.


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## vicijp (8 February 2007)

Theyll be banning castration next!


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## Sooty (8 February 2007)

Hardly the same thing! Dogs tails are there for a reason - they are part of their balance system, and how they communicate. They are a physical necessity, not an optional extra to be chopped off for fashion or because a dog may possibly be a working dog. Our neighbours' working collies have to encounter all sorts of conditions yet they are not docked. It is a practice supported by the Kennel Club for appearance reasons and is wrong.


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## severnmiles (8 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Theyll be banning castration next! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep!  Nobody whinges about godknows how many bull calves being castrated without pain killers... yet they whinge about a teeny pup having its tail snipped.


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## DiNorth (8 February 2007)

Feel that I have to point out, that for many years now it has only been legal for dogs docked by a vet. If Wales has had a different law passed then I stand corrected.
Diane


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## severnmiles (8 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Hardly the same thing! Dogs tails are there for a reason - they are part of their balance system, and how they communicate. They are a physical necessity, not an optional extra to be chopped off for fashion or because a dog may possibly be a working dog. Our neighbours' working collies have to encounter all sorts of conditions yet they are not docked. It is a practice supported by the Kennel Club for appearance reasons and is wrong. 

[/ QUOTE ]

A physical necessity for a wild dog yes but not a domesticated one.  A tail is for balance, for when the dog hunted its prey.

I've never known collies work a day through thick brambles/blackthorn/hawthorn/dog rose e.t.c  Nor a retriever!


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## DiNorth (8 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Hardly the same thing! Dogs tails are there for a reason - they are part of their balance system, and how they communicate. They are a physical necessity, not an optional extra to be chopped off for fashion or because a dog may possibly be a working dog. Our neighbours' working collies have to encounter all sorts of conditions yet they are not docked. It is a practice supported by the Kennel Club for appearance reasons and is wrong. 

[/ QUOTE ]
While a collie may wag his tail to show pleasure, if you watch them work they usually do so with a still, low tail carriage. 
Docked dogs are still able to wag &amp; show emotion.
Diane


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## severnmiles (8 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I've yet to meet anyone around here who docks their own dogs make anything but a quick neat job tbh.  If done correctly, quickly and cleanly, the pups tend to make no more fuss than they do about having dewclaws done which is zilch!  I do however agree that there is no need just for cosmetic purposes but working dogs are an entirely different matter and it should be done within days of being born, any later then they should be done by a vet under anesthetic.  
But that is just my view, I don't expect everyone to share it! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly MFH_09 if the idiots that made the law bothered to see the reasons working dogs are docked and see a litter done properly(and not even by a vet) they would forget the law completely.


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## Sooty (8 February 2007)

LOL! Have you never seen a domestic dog out for a run? It uses its tail as a rudder to slow down, and to go round corners at speed. Larger dogs that are routinely docked, like Boxers and Rottweilers, are prone to knee and hip problems because of extra strain put on these joints after docking. Retrievers will retrieve from anywhere, and round here a lot of birds fall into ditches which are full of brambles.


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## wireweiners (8 February 2007)

Docking, ear cropping and dewclaw removal are not banned in the US although I believe that a couple of states have tried to ban them.   I don't have a problem with docking as long as it's done when the pups are young.   I don't have a docked breed but I had a friend with schnauzers who docked her pups at around 3 days old.  Didn't faze them a bit.  Personally I think docked breeds look odd with long tails, sort of out of balance.  I think this is because breeders haven't been breeding for tails that matched the dog's body.  Ear cropping is another matter.  I think that is very painful plus a pain to look after.

Why is it that the English pointers are allowed to have long tails but the German and European breeds and the spaniels do not?  I've never understood this.


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## severnmiles (8 February 2007)

But originally that was for hunting, they wouldn't have done alot after hunting and playing therefore the tail served the purpose of helping with balance when hunting.  Originally (when god made dogs 
	
	
		
		
	


	




) he didn't give them a tail thinking, this will do good when the humans domesticate them and start throwing balls for them!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Our little JRT can turn on a 6 pence....just think, if you've never had something...how can you miss it?

"like Boxers and Rottweilers, are prone to knee and hip problems because of extra strain put on these joints after docking"

And how do you explaing those problems in GSD's/BSD's then?  

Retrievers aren't popular working dogs either.  More a house dog, can't say I've ever met one out shooting so I can't comment on them!


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## Sooty (8 February 2007)

I know a few people who use Labs and GRs for retrieving - complete with tails. The problems associated with docking are more to do with strain on ligaments, the problems with dysplasia are due to breeding with an existing fault and breeding from poor stock initially.


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## severnmiles (8 February 2007)

I know heaps of labs out but not one retriever (where we used to be), they work completely different to a spaniel though.

So where is the scientific evidence to support what you say?  Actually needn't bother, all of these scientific reports are always biased whether its to support your thoughts or mine!


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## severnmiles (8 February 2007)

The first week is an ideal time, before they've opened their eyes.


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## Tia (8 February 2007)

A Labrador IS a Retriever though.  Their correct KC name is Labrador Retreiver.


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## severnmiles (8 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
A Labrador IS a Retriever though.  Their correct KC name is Labrador Retreiver. 

[/ QUOTE ]

We're talking about the breed and not its job.


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## RunToEarth (8 February 2007)

IMO totally pants- working dogs are not docked for looks.


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## GinaB (8 February 2007)

And it is understandable why the likes of Pointers and Spaniels are docked, but not labs. Labds tails are a lot more 'heavy duty' than the likes of a pointer. And they work perfectly fine without them. Spaniels tails 'thrash' a lot. I'd rather it docked than see if damage itself out working


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## Tia (8 February 2007)

I am talking about the breed....it is NOT a Labrador, it's correct name is a Labrador Retriever.


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## severnmiles (8 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I am talking about the breed....it is NOT a Labrador, it's correct name is a Labrador Retreiver. 

[/ QUOTE ]

And we are talking about Retrievers...they're a completely different breed to a lab!


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## RunToEarth (8 February 2007)

Oh yes I have seen some nasty accidents with spaniels up on the grouse moors down here whilst working- not so many because  the vast majority are docked- It will go on despite a ban, I am certain of it.


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## severnmiles (8 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
It will go on despite a ban, I am certain of it. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, just like other things the ruddy morons in suits ban.....


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## Tia (8 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I know heaps of labs out but not one retriever  

[/ QUOTE ] 
Was your previous quote - to which I replied they are Labrador Retrievers......

 [ QUOTE ]
And we are talking about Retrievers  

[/ QUOTE ] 

And now you are talking about Golden Retrievers....I know fine well that Labrador Retrievers and not the same as Golden Retrievers LOL!!  I was purely pointing out the inaccuracy of your previous post which could lead to misunderstanding......


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## severnmiles (8 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 [ QUOTE ]
I know heaps of labs out but not one retriever  

[/ QUOTE ] 
Was your previous quote - to which I replied they are Labrador Retrievers......

 [ QUOTE ]
And we are talking about Retrievers  

[/ QUOTE ] 

And now you are talking about Golden Retrievers....I know fine well that Labrador Retrievers and not the same as Golden Retrievers LOL!!  I was purely pointing out the inaccuracy of your previous post which could lead to misunderstanding...... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Ooooo you're soooo pernickety!


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## GinaB (8 February 2007)

Bad thing is, yes docking will probably continue but by untrained ones who don't know what they're doing would be my fear.


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## Tia (8 February 2007)

Now I really don't know how you can possibly say that!!  Let alone believe it  
	
	
		
		
	


	








.  Me pernickity....never, LOL!!


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## emma69 (8 February 2007)

My Lab certainly uses his tail for balance, watching him run a mile a minute round fields and you see his tail counter balancing him. Our last Lab has his dew claws cut off as a little one, watching my Lab now and I feel unbelievably cruel - I was told they don't use them - well my dog certainly does, they are his 'thumbs' that he uses when prying things open, etc.


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## Tia (8 February 2007)

Perhaps spaniels don't use their tails for balance........


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## GinaB (8 February 2007)

Spaniels tails are big thumping sticks for unsuspecting people walking by!


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## emma69 (8 February 2007)

Now where is she when you want to ask these questions... Spaniel, oh Spaniel? do you use your tail for...  oh never mind!


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## Tia (8 February 2007)

Well that's true without doubt!  I'd never allow my long-tailed spaniel in my house.....cups would be flying!!


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## ihatework (8 February 2007)

I've read this debate with interest and have to agree that working spaniels are far better off with their tails docked. I myself have a lab, I take him out beating and he works very well but unlike the spaniels does not go into the very dense thorny bushes, he flushes and retrieves but goes about it in a very different way to the spaniels.


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## Skhosu (8 February 2007)

Glad to hear it. Think its out of date and never saw the reason behind it.


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## Malibu (8 February 2007)

big thing here right now- as you may know we breed dosg (use as pets working and showing as well as breeding) now i am AGAINTS ALOT FO THINGS, as rather"soft heart" but i do think that for sake of small pain it is worth it rather than getting trapper and having to operate on such painful area. we band our, some CUT!!!!! so bands on at approx day 3 so old enough to handle it not weak and bones are VERY SOFT!!! taisl just fall off, no pain at all, only get distressted when you pick them up to put bands on BUT they do that when ever you pick them up, they dont SEEM to feel a a thing AND i think the scottisih exec and gov SHOULD/NEED to concentrate on faaaar more serious matters regarding animals and not on something that really helps the dog in long term!

at least vets will be making ALOT of money from alot of op's to tails, not that they need to make any more money fo us anyway!
anyone detect i am rather angry about this all! lots of nonsence!


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## Malibu (8 February 2007)

will add we dock a small amount so about 3/4's of tail left so long enough for balance, working, through water etc BUT cnat get trapped easilky or bang of wall through door etc! some say they use for water well some dogs are not worked through water!!!! RETRIVERS ARE AND hpr's but not pointer or hunters, they should not have to go through water to retieve. also with regards to it going on despite ban, well of course, BUT there is exception that working dogs can have them docked, but who can prove it a working and non working dog unless some sort of test and certificate, scotland has yet to show us a full proof legislation!


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps spaniels don't use their tails for balance........ 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Yes they probably do but you can't compare the way labs and spaniels work.  Surely the welfare of the animal is paramount?


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Well that's true without doubt!  I'd never allow my long-tailed spaniel in my house.....cups would be flying!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Now imagine that tail in a thick covert full of brambles and blackthorn, for a start finding a blackthorn in a spaniels tail would be hard work, especially if you didn't know it was there and remember blackthorn poisening is deadly.


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Glad to hear it. Think its out of date and never saw the reason behind it. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps that reason is because you've never seen terriers and spaniels at work.


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## welshcobabe (9 February 2007)

I have had springer spanials all my life, and I have bred and trained them I have never docked any, in my view is barbaric.
I have never had a working dog injury its tail while working I understand that other folk have strong veiws on the subject but to to me a springer working with it full tail wagging is a thing of beauty.


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## Sooty (9 February 2007)

So do you totally shave them then? Don't they get cold?


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## jj4y (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps spaniels don't use their tails for balance........ 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Yes they probably do but you can't compare the way labs and spaniels work.  Surely the welfare of the animal is paramount? 

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree...there is no way spaniels and labs can be compared in the way that they work.  Yes some labs will enter cover, but they no where near work the cover as hard as a spaniel does.  When docking is done correctly the pups hardly notice what is going on and it certainly doesn't affect them.  It is done to improve the dog's welfare when working and i am fully in favour of it.  However, i'm not in favour of docking purely for cosmetic reasons.


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## Sooty (9 February 2007)

How would you know what a puppy does or doesn't notice? That is a bit presumptuous. It all boils down to fashion. I look forward to being proved wrong, but I have yet to see any evidence of long-term damage to a dog's tail because it isn't docked. Obviously there is the odd one, and the tails of Great Danes often split as they are very spindly - should be dock all dogs just to be on the safe side? Let's mutilate all the newborn puppies.


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I have had springer spanials all my life, and I have bred and trained them I have never docked any, in my view is barbaric.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've obviously never seen any pups docked then, barbaric is a ridiculous word to use.

[ QUOTE ]
I have never had a working dog injury its tail while working I understand that other folk have strong veiws on the subject but to to me a springer working with it full tail wagging is a thing of beauty. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Blood stained tail a 'thing of beauty', how warped.

We're not just talking spaniels here we're talking terriers that work in earths too.


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
So do you totally shave them then? Don't they get cold? 

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand you Sooty.


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 However, i'm not in favour of docking purely for cosmetic reasons. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Me neither


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

Its not presumptuous, you can tell if a pup is in discomfort by its reactions.

Mutilate is rather a severe word, we're not injuring the pups.


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## Sooty (9 February 2007)

Not injuring? Cutting off the end of a dog's spine? A tail is not a decoration to be removed on the whim of a human! Mutiliate is exactly the right word.


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

So now docking = sever injury.

Oh come on!


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## jj4y (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
How would you know what a puppy does or doesn't notice? That is a bit presumptuous. It all boils down to fashion. I look forward to being proved wrong, but I have yet to see any evidence of long-term damage to a dog's tail because it isn't docked. Obviously there is the odd one, and the tails of Great Danes often split as they are very spindly - should be dock all dogs just to be on the safe side? Let's mutilate all the newborn puppies. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is a quote taken from a doctorate on the feeling of pain in newborn puppies...
_"Incomplete development of the nervous system at the time of birth and the very high chronaxie value in connection with the fact that the animal is not able to react effectively to pain, gives us every reason to believe that the actual feeling of pain is very low in the new-born of this group of mammals (dogs). In other words, at this age and biological condition, it would have no absolute meaning to talk about pain". _ 
A lot of research has been done on this in the past and it is FACT that they have an inability to feel pain to a great extent in the first few days of life.

Please refer to the council of docked breeds website where there is plenty of evidence of tail damage.  www.cdb.org

Petty statements saying should we dock ALL puppies are giving your arguement ZERO strength and credibility.  My labradors are not docked as there is no need for them to be, however my springers are as I would much rather prevent them from having an otherwise unneccessary injury.  

Do you believe that all preventative measures are cruel?  Speying bitches is actually very complex surgery but is routinely done to prevent unwanted pregnancies and pyometra and reduce the chances of mammary tumours.  Is this also cruel?


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## Sooty (9 February 2007)

I don't think we are ever going to agree on this. I think it is barbaric, arrogant and unnecessary to dock, you think it is ok if it stops a dog getting thorns in its tail. Hence my shaving post - Spaniels are hairy all over, not just on their tails...


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]

Now imagine that tail in a thick covert full of brambles and blackthorn, for a start finding a blackthorn in a spaniels tail would be hard work, especially if you didn't know it was there and remember blackthorn poisening is deadly. 

[/ QUOTE ]

SM - in my very first post on this thread I wrote:
 [ QUOTE ]
My little spaniel has a long undocked tail. She works pretty much every day, running around in our woods flushing out birds and wildlife and we have a tonne of brambles and dense undergrowth.   

[/ QUOTE ] 

She works in deep undergrowth every day - no injuries to date.


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## 6103claire (9 February 2007)

The person i got my jack russell docked them himself and did their dew claws when the were only a few days old.  Apparently not one of them made a sound and didnt appear to really notice.  Just think what little lambs must feel when they have a band put round thier tail so it dies and falls off.  Dog docking is a much better way.


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## Sooty (9 February 2007)

Makes you wonder why they bother being born with tails at all, doesn't it?


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Makes you wonder why they bother being born with tails at all, doesn't it? 

[/ QUOTE ]

You haven't commented on...http://www.cdb.org/ yet Soots.


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

Tia, check out the spaniel on http://www.cdb.org/ thats my memory of Tigs back in the days of beating, the only spaniel that wasn't docked.


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Just think what little lambs must feel when they have a band put round thier tail so it dies and falls off.  Dog docking is a much better way. 

[/ QUOTE ]

If the lambs are lucky enough to get banded...there are other methods used.


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## Sooty (9 February 2007)

That is depressing - a whole website dedicated to chopping bits off dogs! I am not convinced that docking is necessary, and that the injuries sustained in undocked dogs are very few and far between. We shall see...


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
That is depressing - a whole website dedicated to chopping bits off dogs! I am not convinced that docking is necessary, and that the injuries sustained in undocked dogs are very few and far between. We shall see... 

[/ QUOTE ]

You just refuse to believe it, I don't think animal welfare is your first concern.


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## jj4y (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That is depressing - a whole website dedicated to chopping bits off dogs! I am not convinced that docking is necessary, and that the injuries sustained in undocked dogs are very few and far between. We shall see... 

[/ QUOTE ]

You just refuse to believe it, I don't think animal welfare is your first concern. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to agree with severnmiles.  

Sooty - you don't seem to have a valid arguement, it just appears as 'I don't like it, so you shouldn't do it'.  My spaniels' welfare is a priority to me...that is why they are docked.  You didn't reply to my comment on routine speying, is that also barbaric?


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## pixie (9 February 2007)

Spaying is done to prevent overpopulation - there are far too many unwanted animals and most animal rescue centres are heaving with unwanted animals, so why make more?  Its responsible as some people cannot ensure that their animals will never come into contact with an unspayed animal.  Unfortunately a lot of people are not responsible and will dump or even kill unwanted animals.


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## ali985 (9 February 2007)

Im sorry to say it but I work in a vets and ALL the vets that I work with including the bosses REFUSE to dock tails now because it is barbarick (SP), cruel and there is no need to, dogs were born with tails for a reason, I am pro hunting shooting and all game sports and I would much rather have a spaniel, JRT, or any other breed with a tail out working, as they use it to help them balence. I HATE people/ breeders who have their puppies tails docked for the looks, or cause all the other dogs in the show ring have their tails docked, im sorry but that is JUST WRONG.


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## jj4y (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Im sorry to say it but I work in a vets and ALL the vets that I work with including the bosses REFUSE to dock tails now because it is barbarick (SP), cruel and there is no need to, dogs were born with tails for a reason, I am pro hunting shooting and all game sports and I would much rather have a spaniel, JRT, or any other breed with a tail out working, as they use it to help them balence. I HATE people/ breeders who have their puppies tails docked for the looks, or cause all the other dogs in the show ring have their tails docked, im sorry but that is JUST WRONG. 

[/ QUOTE ]

There are plenty of vets in favour of docking...
www.vets4docking.org.uk


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
JUST WRONG. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats just your opinion.


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Spaying is done to prevent overpopulation - there are far too many unwanted animals and most animal rescue centres are heaving with unwanted animals, so why make more?  Its responsible as some people cannot ensure that their animals will never come into contact with an unspayed animal.  Unfortunately a lot of people are not responsible and will dump or even kill unwanted animals. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but docking dogs is done for a reason too.  6 to one, half a dozen to the other!


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## jj4y (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Spaying is done to prevent overpopulation - there are far too many unwanted animals and most animal rescue centres are heaving with unwanted animals, so why make more?  Its responsible as some people cannot ensure that their animals will never come into contact with an unspayed animal.  Unfortunately a lot of people are not responsible and will dump or even kill unwanted animals. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Overpopulation is NOT the only reason why speying is carried out.  Overpopulation can be dealt with by owners acting responsibly and keeping their bitches away from dogs when they are in season!  We have a mixed kennels and have never had a accidental mating...its all down to management.

I nearly lost a bitch to pyometra a few years ago...i will now routinely spey any bitches from which I don't intend to keep a puppy.


----------



## Sooty (9 February 2007)

I didn't realise you were serious about the speying question as it was so ludicrous -how are the two comparable? One is a responsible action, one is an act of vanity hung on a lame old 'working dog' excuse. Did you know docking was introduced as a way of identifying working dogs for tax purposes, not as an 'animal welfare' issue?


----------



## ali985 (9 February 2007)

oh nd BTW spaying in my oppinion is a neccsity (SP) as jj4y said there is always the chance that ur bitch could get a  pyometra wich she could die from, so u should put ur bitch 4 a short operation wen is healthey and has a good chance of recovery, rather than when she is very poorly with a pyo that she could then die by having to be put under ga.


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## jj4y (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't realise you were serious about the speying question as it was so ludicrous -how are the two comparable? One is a responsible action, one is an act of vanity hung on a lame old 'working dog' excuse. Did you know docking was introduced as a way of identifying working dogs for tax purposes, not as an 'animal welfare' issue? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually the first evidence of docking was by the romans as they believed that rabies was carried in the dog's tail, please ensure your facts are right before quoting them.

I can assure you that the docking of true working dogs has nothing to do with vanity...I would quite happily own an undocked springer as a PET but not as a working dog.  I can't comment on the docking of non- undog breeds as I don't have any experience of them and I don't condone docking for cosmetic reasons.

Actually I think speying and docking can be compared, except that IMO speying will cause the dog more discomfort as the adult dog has the fully developed ability to feel pain, compared to a newborn puppy.


----------



## DiNorth (9 February 2007)

I am so glad that I went ahead &amp; posted this topic. It just goes to show there are differences between pets &amp; working dogs of the same breed. 
I only condone docking of working animals. Anyone who gets a splinter knows how painful it can become if not removed. If left in it quickly becomes hot &amp; swollen &amp; eventually infected. This is bad enough if its just an accidental brush against wood or thorn, but Im sure you will appreciate how much more it hurts when the splinter is obtained with any force. Many people will say, "My dog goes through bushes &amp; never seems to suffer any ill effect!" That may well be so, but when a spaniel is working cover it does not just brush against the cover. Its tail is constantly thrashing from side to side at incredible speed &amp; force, which can not only incur thorns etc, but also scratching &amp; tearing of the skin. Also these dogs are not just out for a short period of time, they are usually working intensely throughout the day. Yes their noses do get scratched &amp; yes they do pick up thorns in their coats on other parts of their body. But as I have stated before it is the movement of their tails that makes them more prone to injury. Injury is not only obtained from puncture wounds such as thorns etc, When a spaniel works through bracken, a long tail can also becomes injured &amp; split due to the constant tail thrashing against the bracken. Constant injury can lead to infection throughout the rest of the body.
We do not simply chop off the whole tail in a barbaric way, leaving them with nothing. Only part of the tail is removed in a bid to prevent any unnecessary injury. If performed at young age this is a minor procedure, however the amputation of an injured full tail is a major operation with a longer recovery time, &amp; and cannot always be guaranteed a success. Correctly performed tail docking of puppies can no way be compared to the mutilation of a baby.
 It is possible however when reading through this thread to see how media from both sides has influenced some people. I do ask that if any one feels strongly enough about the welfare of these dogs, that they acquaint themselves with the real facts &amp; not just a selected collection of data.
Diane


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## broomie (9 February 2007)

I've been following this thread with interest and also a certain amount of disbelief.

Firstly it is always interesting to read posts (usually voiced very strongly) by folk who have no experience of the subject in question - in this instance actually working gundogs in a shoot environment. 

TBH I don't think I've laughed this much in years at some of the utter garbage that's been trotted out so far so cheers folks.

Secondly and much more worryingly is the fact that folk on this thread have admitted to carrying out (or their friends carrying out) an activity which it is illegal for a layperson to do - namely the docking of puppies tails.

This forum is in the public domain and absolutely ANYBODY could be reading these admissions at this very minute!


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

I can't see where anyone has admitted anything that is evidence enough to bring prosectution, learn the law inside out


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## jj4y (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]

TBH I don't think I've laughed this much in years at some of the utter garbage that's been trotted out so far so cheers folks.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sat here in stitches too!


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## Sooty (9 February 2007)

So are you saying it is ok for them to dock their own dogs as long as they keep quiet about it?


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## broomie (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I can't see where anyone has admitted anything that is evidence enough to bring prosectution, learn the law inside out  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I am well aware of the law and wasn't talking about prosecution but this is just another example of the ignorance that I am refering to.

My concern is that folk might end up with a dirty great bunch of animal rights activists on their case and to be perfectly honest, prosecution would probably be the preferable option out of the two.


----------



## jj4y (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
So are you saying it is ok for them to dock their own dogs as long as they keep quiet about it? 

[/ QUOTE ]

No...you're reading into things.  No RESPECTABLE breeders of working gundogs would attempt to dock the tails of their own pups


----------



## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
So are you saying it is ok for them to dock their own dogs as long as they keep quiet about it? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Soots have you watched the video on that website?  Given the fact we can foal our own mares, inject our own dogs, band our own pigs and lambs do you think joe public could do the job shown?


----------



## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
No...you're reading into things.  No RESPECTABLE breeders of working gundogs would attempt to dock the tails of their own pups 

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... is my only comment on that one...


----------



## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
My concern is that folk might end up with a dirty great bunch of animal rights activists on their case and to be perfectly. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Last time they came down our way they ran back to England with their tail between their legs...


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## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

More than one person on this thread has admitted to docking their own dogs tails - it has been illegal for some years to carry this out - it must be done by a vet - you want to argue points of law, fill your boots, you might work with horses, I work in the legal profession - there would be sufficient evidence from the posts to at least instigate an investigation in to the matter and given the current climate, I am almost sure that this could and in fact would be used in a prosecution, weather the CPS would run with the matter would depend on the level of evidence, but an admission would go a long way to proving the case.

People should be aware of what they post.

Mike


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## flying_change (9 February 2007)

Undocked, hopefully.....


----------



## broomie (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
So are you saying it is ok for them to dock their own dogs as long as they keep quiet about it? 

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't.....  but you just have! 

Which part of  <font color="red">  It is illegal for anybody other than a vet to dock puppies tails </font> is so difficult to grasp?


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Undocked, hopefully..... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Undocked but not uninjured


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## Sooty (9 February 2007)

You were expressing concern that anybody could read what people had written, rather than expressing concern that they had actually docked dogs.


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
More than one person on this thread has admitted to docking their own dogs tails - it has been illegal for some years to carry this out - it must be done by a vet - you want to argue points of law, fill your boots, you might work with horses, I work in the legal profession - there would be sufficient evidence from the posts to at least instigate an investigation in to the matter and given the current climate, I am almost sure that this could and in fact would be used in a prosecution, weather the CPS would run with the matter would depend on the level of evidence, but an admission would go a long way to proving the case.

People should be aware of what they post.

Mike 

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you quote it all for us to see...I for one would be interested...I work with horses, not to say those around me don't work in the legal profession though.


----------



## Tia (9 February 2007)

Yes we all know that if a dog gets even the tiniest injury to it's tail that it looks like a blood-bath, even when the injury is incredibly minor.

My long-tailed spaniel works in dense undergrowth and flushes most days and has never injured her tail or any part of her body, although she has come home with a number of bramble thorns stuck in her head on occasion.....of course the head does not have the same structure of blood vessels that a tail has, so thankfully I don't need to chop her head off for her to do her job properly!


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## Sooty (9 February 2007)

PMSL!!!


----------



## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

Sooty - you have not commented on the fact that you were wrong about why docking started? (Romans) seems that you have now become selective?


----------



## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Can you quote it all for us to see...I for one would be interested...I work with horses, not to say those around me don't work in the legal profession though. 

[/ QUOTE ]

You can read - why would I wish to highlight someone else's mistake - surely they would not thank me for that!

And as for those working around you? that's like me saying I know a man who works for the queen - Yawn


----------



## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Sooty - you have not commented on the fact that you were wrong about why docking started? (Romans) seems that you have now become selective? 

[/ QUOTE ]

She hasn't commented on the facts we can band pigs and sheep tails, we can trim our ponies and horses feet (and cause damage enough for them to be PTS), foal mares down e.t.c but we can't place a band around the tail of a pup thats 2days old and hasn't even opened its eyes.


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## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

Sorry but on this one I actually agree with Sooty - lay persons should NOT be allowed to dock.

It should be done by a vet'


----------



## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
You can read - why would I wish to highlight someone else's mistake - surely they would not thank me for that! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I can't see anywhere, I can see two places in which it is commented on that others who aren't vets carry it out but nowhere can I see someone saying...

'I dock my puppies tails' and if I did, I wouldn't know whether or not they were a qualified vet now would I?


----------



## Enfys (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just think what little lambs must feel when they have a band put round thier tail so it dies and falls off.  Dog docking is a much better way. 

[/ QUOTE ]

If the lambs are lucky enough to get banded...there are other methods used. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Off topic for one second......it's not just lambs tails that get banded! We used to castrate them that way too. Always made me feel sick.


----------



## Sooty (9 February 2007)

The Romans started many things, and as I have no idea whether or not they docked dogs I will take your word for it that they did. There is also evidence that docking grew in popularity in the UK as a way of identifying working dogs for tax purposes. Years ago horses were routinely docked as their tails interfered with their work. Would you advocate that, too?


----------



## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but on this one I actually agree with Sooty - lay persons should NOT be allowed to dock.

It should be done by a vet' 

[/ QUOTE ]

Reason being?  Percentage of pups that die through a layperson doing it illegally?

Don't go arresting me for this ( 
	
	
		
		
	


	




) but one person asked for their working pups to be docked by a vet, bands handed out over the counter, save me a job and do it yourself...heard on the grapevine of course.


----------



## Tia (9 February 2007)

Sheep and pigs are bred for death.  Their tails are docked to ultimately facilitate this process.

Trimming horses feet generally does not cause damage to them, quite the opposite actually.

All animals in the animal kingdom give birth.......I have NO idea what correlation this has with this subject LOL!!

IF you had read what Sooty's posts are clearly saying (or at least they are clear to me) that she has no huge problem with the act of docking provided it is done under vet care, but that she says it affects the mobility and balance of the dog.  Surely all you self-professed dog handlers are aware of the rudder action of a tail  
	
	
		
		
	


	




.


----------



## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

no vet would risk being struck off for something so stupid as openly doing that - and yes the RCVS would strike them off - oh and not a police officer, nice try.

Far too old for running around like that!


----------



## Sooty (9 February 2007)

Sooty didn't say that...


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
The Romans started many things, and as I have no idea whether or not they docked dogs I will take your word for it that they did. There is also evidence that docking grew in popularity in the UK as a way of identifying working dogs for tax purposes. Years ago horses were routinely docked as their tails interfered with their work. Would you advocate that, too? 

[/ QUOTE ]

As a reason that their tails were sometimes painfully caught in equipment then yes maybe that was the best option.


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

Do you hunt on horseback SM?


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## Sooty (9 February 2007)

They could be bound, like they are nowadays for polo...


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## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Sooty didn't say that...  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Ah well sorry for mis quoting you!


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## Sooty (9 February 2007)

That's ok!


----------



## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Sooty didn't say that...  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

What didn't Sooty say?


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## jj4y (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 Surely all you self-professed dog handlers are aware of the rudder action of a tail  
	
	
		
		
	


	




. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Our docked working springers definately have no problem manouvering without a full tail.  I also know of many docked springers and cockers who are extremely successful agility dogs


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Do you hunt on horseback SM? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes....


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## Sooty (9 February 2007)

Sooty didn't say anything! She is giving up and going to make a nice cup of tea.


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Sheep and pigs are bred for death.  Their tails are docked to ultimately facilitate this process.

Trimming horses feet generally does not cause damage to them, quite the opposite actually.

All animals in the animal kingdom give birth.......I have NO idea what correlation this has with this subject LOL!!

IF you had read what Sooty's posts are clearly saying (or at least they are clear to me) that she has no huge problem with the act of docking provided it is done under vet care, but that she says it affects the mobility and balance of the dog.  Surely all you self-professed dog handlers are aware of the rudder action of a tail  
	
	
		
		
	


	




. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Strasser trimming...heard of that over the pond?

The birth remark was not saying it shouldn't happen, I was saying why should we be able to assist an animal giving birth if we cannot place a band around the tail of a 2 day old pup?  How many of you anti-docking lot even bothered to watch the video?

Re. rudder action, read the post by another forum member.


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Sooty didn't say anything! She is giving up and going to make a nice cup of tea.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Can you make me one too please...milk, one sugar...


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
no vet would risk being struck off for something so stupid as openly doing that - and yes the RCVS would strike them off - oh and not a police officer, nice try.

Far too old for running around like that! 

[/ QUOTE ]

No of course they wouldn't, you're obviously very sheltered and also terribly naive.


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## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

Can I have a coffee please, milk and no sugar! am supposed to be working but this is much more fun


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Can I have a coffee please, milk and no sugar! am supposed to be working but this is much more fun 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Can I ask because you're new...are you male or female?


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

Gotta be male....


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## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

Transsexual actually - problem with that?

Is it relevant?

Niave? no and not a child like you lot either.


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Gotta be male.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what I was thinking...


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## jj4y (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Gotta be male.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Why???  And what would you assume about me...male or female?


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Transsexual actually - problem with that? 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Yes, you're a waste to fella's and ladies at the same time...

[ QUOTE ]
Is it relevant?....

[/ QUOTE ] Yes...

[ QUOTE ]
Niave? no and not a child like you lot either. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, Tia, I'm thinking maybe gay...sort of got a b*tchy tone to its posts!


----------



## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gotta be male.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Why???  And what would you assume about me...male or female? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Female...oh god now I hope you are...


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## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

well - your comments are now slanderous, so this is now not funny, I find your comments offensive - I will be taking action against them.


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
well - your comments are now slanderous, so this is now not funny, I find your comments offensive - I will be taking action against them. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck!


----------



## welshcobabe (9 February 2007)

Yes I have seen puppies been docked, which is why in all my for 45 years of breeding dogs I would never have my dogs touched ! 

They all have their natural tails, the working dogs all do a full days work and I have never seen a dog with a tail injury.
A first class well trained working dog is a joy, I just like to see mine as nature intended.

I think we should just agree to disagree on this one.


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## jj4y (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gotta be male.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Why???  And what would you assume about me...male or female? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Female...oh god now I hope you are...  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Correct


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]

Correct  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Ooo I'm getting good at this


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

Nope.

Nope.

Don't know whether you are or not but I am not a child.


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

Female would be my guess.


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
well - your comments are now slanderous, so this is now not funny, I find your comments offensive - I will be taking action against them.  

[/ QUOTE ] 

Now that is THE funniest comment made in this thread  
	
	
		
		
	


	




......thank you so much you have made my day here!


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## DiNorth (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can I have a coffee please, milk and no sugar! am supposed to be working but this is much more fun 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Can I ask because you're new...are you male or female? 

[/ QUOTE ]
Looks like you might have pulled MiLisCER 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Don't suppose your tall dark, handsome, not to mention wealthy! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 pmsl
Anyway, relevant..........
Long tailed dogs can sustain injury when working. 
Docking in the UK is illegal unless performed by a reg vet. Yes it does still happen, as do a lot of other illegal practices. It does not make them right &amp; as it has already been pointed out, openly admitting that you know someone who does perform a criminal act, can lead to further investigation &amp; prosecution.
Some folk agree with the docking of working dogs, others dont &amp; are possibly blinkered by a perfect world of cute fluffy animals where nothing bad ever happens. They may just believe that their views are right. Maybe if more people were made aware of the reality there would be less ignorance.


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

Oh SM.....I just love that old saying "there's nowt so queer as folk".


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## jj4y (9 February 2007)

I for one would appreciate this thread getting back to the subject of docking!


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 Maybe if more people were made aware of the reality there would be less ignorance. 


[/ QUOTE ] 

I completely agree with you here.....100%!   
	
	
		
		
	


	





Perhaps you could direct us to a link with statistics?  From where I am standing, I am the only person here who owns and daily works a long tailed springer.


----------



## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can I have a coffee please, milk and no sugar! am supposed to be working but this is much more fun 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Can I ask because you're new...are you male or female? 

[/ QUOTE ]
Looks like you might have pulled MiLisCER 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Don't suppose your tall dark, handsome, not to mention wealthy! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 pmsl
. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Nooo, I have an OH!  I am happily 'married'!


----------



## Tia (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
not to mention wealthy!  

[/ QUOTE ] 

*Highly* doubtful!  

Wealthy people generally do not stoop to threatening to sue someone because they ask a question about their sexual preference.


----------



## jj4y (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 From where I am standing, I am the only person here who owns and daily works a long tailed springer. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you tell us where you work your springer and through what cover and on what game?


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## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 [ QUOTE ]
not to mention wealthy!  

[/ QUOTE ] 

*Highly* doubtful!  

Wealthy people generally do not stoop to threatening to sue someone because they ask a question about their sexual preference. 

[/ QUOTE ]

That was not a question, it was abusive and slanderous - money attracts money - you can never have enough.

Di - don't give the game away, but thanks for the compliments, must buy you that G&amp;T at Scone this year 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Be good to catch up and have a natter.


----------



## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]


That was not a question, it was abusive and slanderous - money attracts money - you can never have enough.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you find that slanderous I suggest you leave HHO now, its not the place for you, we're a lighthearted bunch who can have a good debate without taking anything to heart.


----------



## jj4y (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


That was not a question, it was abusive and slanderous - money attracts money - you can never have enough.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you find that slanderous I suggest you leave HHO now, its not the place for you, we're a lighthearted bunch who can have a good debate without taking anything to heart. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough to challenge someones views and opinions on a topic, but why does it have to get so personal?  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  Everybody has something to add to an open forum like this, so what gives one person the right to suggest someone leaves?


----------



## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

slanderous - (used of statements) harmful and often untrue; tending to discredit or malign.

Since when have you been in charge~? I shall stay if I like.

There are enough adults mingled in with the children to at least have a sensible debate, without resorting to immature name calling and childish bickering.

Regards

Mike


----------



## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


That was not a question, it was abusive and slanderous - money attracts money - you can never have enough.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you find that slanderous I suggest you leave HHO now, its not the place for you, we're a lighthearted bunch who can have a good debate without taking anything to heart. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough to challenge someones views and opinions on a topic, but why does it have to get so personal?  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  Everybody has something to add to an open forum like this, so what gives one person the right to suggest someone leaves? 

[/ QUOTE ]

So you agree I need to be sued over a jokey comment....what  _is_  the world coming to?


----------



## Enfys (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
slanderous - (used of statements) harmful and often untrue; tending to discredit or malign.

Since when have you been in charge~? I shall stay if I like.

There are enough adults mingled in with the children to at least have a sensible debate, without resorting to immature name calling and childish bickering.

Regards

Mike 

[/ QUOTE ]

From one of your posts today 

"Niave? no and not a child like you lot either." 

Hmmm, Pot and kettle comes to mind.


----------



## DiNorth (9 February 2007)

Thought you would all be intelligent enough to stay on the original topic. I hold my hands up &amp; admit I made a lighthearted comment re. MilisCer. But I never expected that to that to swamp the original topic. And I can only believe that MiLisCer has a wealth of canine knowledge &amp; is intelligent &amp; responsible enough, to continue to respond &amp; express his views &amp; experience on the original topic. I also hope others will also direct their time in the same way.  
Re. Being a light-hearted bunch, Im all for that. But Im afraid a subject concerning animal welfare is something I take very seriously. Dont mind a joke, but not when it detracts totally from the main topic.


----------



## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

Thanks Di, like you I have been around working dogs (And for that matter horses) all my life - I now make my living from working dogs, having retired from the rat race last year.

I have probably (And I say probably) had more Springers through my hands in the last 12 months than all the other contributors to this thread put together (With one exception - but she knows who she is)

I would never expose an undocked springer or cocker to proper gundog work - now I dont mean knocking about in a few brambles for fun, I mean proper gundog work that they were bred for, hard cover hitting dogs, doing what they do best.

I will openly invite any person on this forum to come out and watch a proper spaniel doing what it was bred for - they can either see them shot over or we will fly the hawks over them for them to observe how a proper spaniel treats cover.

At the end of the day they will see how hard the dogs have worked and hopefully appreciate after seeing that and talking to us, why they need docked tails.

I am NOT in favour of cosmetic docking for any breed or reason, this includes show dogs, I am strictly in favour of the docking of working dogs.

Mike


----------



## Enfys (9 February 2007)

It has been a good debate, I think most people have had their say by now. 

Except for me, and as I don't have docked breeds I am staying out of it, where I am docking, de-clawing and ear trimming still appears to be legal. I'd buy a docked dog if it had already been done, but never one with trimmed ears. Now that IS totally unnecessary don't you think?

On a purely moral issue here, why is it OK to band lambs tails but not dogs? I don't hear anyone leaping to their defence  on the grounds of cruelty to lambs. Even if they are destined for the dinner plate would the discomfort not be the same regardless of species?


----------



## Tia (9 February 2007)

Deep and dense forested woodland which has never had human beings over it for at least 100 years, if ever!  Put it this way, _I_ cannot get into the undergrowth in the majority of my woods!

She flushes deer, partridges, pheasants, coyotes, wolves, wild turkey ..... thankfully no black bears to date though!


----------



## Tia (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 Even if they are destined for the dinner plate would the discomfort not be the same regardless of species? 

[/ QUOTE ] 

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I have no problem whatsoever with banding....whether it be for a pup, lamb or a sarcoid.  I have no issue with the "act" of docking young animals.


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## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Deep and dense forested woodland which has never had human beings over it for at least 100 years, if ever!  Put it this way, _I_ cannot get into the undergrowth in the majority of my woods!

She flushes deer, partridges, pheasants, coyotes, wolves, wild turkey ..... thankfully no black bears to date though!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

so she is actually free hunting then and not a working dog?

Mike


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## Sooty (9 February 2007)

Aha! Mike - so a man then!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I thought I spotted that earlier...


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## Sooty (9 February 2007)

No, I don't condone docking even for working dogs - I truly don't believe that it is necessary. Oooh, bundle anyone...?


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

She flushes for me - that is her job - to clear the path of critters so to allow safe passage for me and my clients.  Although it has back-fired a couple of times.......not all wolves run away!


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

That was my point though - the act of it is no big deal to me, it is the life afterwards that I have the problem with.


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

But Mike, its not only springers that are 'working dogs', what about working terriers?


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## sojeph (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
No, I don't condone docking even for working dogs - I truly don't believe that it is necessary. Oooh, bundle anyone...? 

[/ QUOTE ]


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## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

do you know why terriers were originally docked? 

I do not condone the docking of terriers - they are no longer used as fighting dogs, tails on earth dogs do not get damaged.

Incidentally - I do NOT condone the docking of the HPR breeds either.

Mike


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## GinaB (9 February 2007)

*whispers* what does HPR stand for?


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## jj4y (9 February 2007)

HPR = Hunt Point Retrieve, its a gundog group.

Examples are the german wirehaired pointer, weimeraner, viszla etc

(Not a Horse + Pony Retriever  
	
	
		
		
	


	




)


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## Sooty (9 February 2007)

Yes, I take your point. The act may or may not be painful, we cannot tell, although I suspect it is not totally painfree - the tail is after all an extension of the spine. It is the way it affects the dog for the rest of its life that I take issue with.


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## Sooty (9 February 2007)

Is that a British term?


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## GinaB (9 February 2007)

Ahhh thank you. I tend to just refer to them by breed! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 The likes of those you have listed though should surely be docked? More likely to injure themselves as their tails are long, quite thin.


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

Just because you don't condone it doesn't mean anything, Sooty doesn't condone the docking of any working dog.  To me any working dog where they are at risk of injuring their tail (which yes could well happen in an earth) should be docked.


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## Sooty (9 February 2007)

Gaaaaargh! So now we have to dock thin tails as well as hairy tails!


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## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

NO, the way the HPRs face/work cover, I am of the opinion, they do not face significant risk to their tails and therefore do not require docking!!

Sooty - in what way does a docked tail affect the rest of the dogs life? other than a working dog can have a pain free time and not need serious surgery under GA to repair/remove a damaged tail?

Mike


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Ahhh thank you. I tend to just refer to them by breed! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 The likes of those you have listed though should surely be docked? More likely to injure themselves as their tails are long, quite thin. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, whether working in heather or in the house excitedly thrashing the wall with his/her tail...


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## GinaB (9 February 2007)

I don't think I worded that one quite right! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I haven't watched pointer type work, we only keep labs and springers. But yes, I agree with Severnmiles those likely to injure themselves are better off docked.


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## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

ROTFL - working in heather is not going to damage a dogs tail! when was the last time you were on a grouse moor?

But it does rub their bellies raw - hence mine get covered in vasaline prior to them working on the grouse moor.

Mike


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
ROTFL - working in heather is not going to damage a dogs tail! when was the last time you were on a grouse moor?

But it does rub their bellies raw - hence mine get covered in vasaline prior to them working on the grouse moor.

Mike 

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL @ Mike!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 you are funny, fair play.


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
ROTFL - working in heather is not going to damage a dogs tail! when was the last time you were on a grouse moor?


[/ QUOTE ]

*whispers* to save you from embarrassment check out this link http://www.cdb.org/gsp.htm bless you. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 now wasn't it you who said the docking of GSP's was not necessary?


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

Sorry to change the subject here for a moment - but Mike, your house is sooooo cute!!


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## jj4y (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ROTFL - working in heather is not going to damage a dogs tail! when was the last time you were on a grouse moor?

But it does rub their bellies raw - hence mine get covered in vasaline prior to them working on the grouse moor.

Mike 

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL @ Mike!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 you are funny, fair play. 

[/ QUOTE ]

What's so funny about that?  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 One of my labs did a day on a grouse moor last season and ended up with raw nipples...i'll definately try the vaseline on her belly next time


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ROTFL - working in heather is not going to damage a dogs tail! when was the last time you were on a grouse moor?

But it does rub their bellies raw - hence mine get covered in vasaline prior to them working on the grouse moor.

Mike 

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL @ Mike!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 you are funny, fair play. 

[/ QUOTE ]

What's so funny about that?  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 One of my labs did a day on a grouse moor last season and ended up with raw nipples...i'll definately try the vaseline on her belly next time 

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL'ing his first comment.  Why would I laugh out loud at dogs in pain.


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## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to change the subject here for a moment - but Mike, your house is sooooo cute!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. Been nosey have you? now you know all about me, you will see I have enough to back up my statements.

Mike


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

Actually no I don't know anything about you - but I like your cottage.....oh and Milo!  Cute little dog.

Why all the arrogance?  Gosh when people find me from my website and say nice things about my place, I smile and thank them.


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

Ooh the irony.


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## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

Think you will find my first words were Thank you.

Ah well, no pleasing everyone.

Mike


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

Immediately followed by "Been nosey have you?".........


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## jj4y (9 February 2007)

Google's the ideal tool for a nosey person


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

How old are you?


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## jj4y (9 February 2007)

What has my age got to do with docking?


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## Enfys (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Google's the ideal tool for a nosey person  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Ah well, if you don't want to be found, don't use your name


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

That explains it.  You're young.


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## jj4y (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
That explains it.  You're young.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take that as a compliment, thank you!


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

Yes.


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## GinaB (9 February 2007)

Totally off the topic...MiLisCer your dogs are wonderful!


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Google's the ideal tool for a nosey person  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Ah well, if you don't want to be found, don't use your name 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

How on earth do you find someone from just their first name?


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

Ooooh ALL the "nosy" people are coming out of the woodwork now eh?  LOL!!


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

Username SM......


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Ooooh ALL the "nosy" people are coming out of the woodwork now eh?  LOL!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]














 Off to google


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## GinaB (9 February 2007)

Nosey?! Me...well...when I saw the name and what they done for a living I just *had* to take a wee peek


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

Ooo first link  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 house is like a chocolate box, very pretty!


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## jj4y (9 February 2007)

For those of you that can't find it, our website is www.miliscer.co.uk
Yes, he's my OH, and no I'm not that young either...!


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## severnmiles (9 February 2007)

Briar, Bracken and Bramble are gorgeous, absolutely stunning types!  Not so keen on the 'type' of your springers though.


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

If you are Rena.....then you certainly look young!


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## JM07 (9 February 2007)

this has turned into a real bun-fight since i left work!

only had 6 pages then.

interesting reading for fence-sitters like myself......


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## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

Odd they are Welsh bred 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 (I am Welsh and the lines main lines of my dogs are Welsh)

And traditional springers - do you have springers? would be interested in thir lines?

Oh and Tia she is older than she looks 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Mike


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## GinaB (9 February 2007)

We have an english springer. She retired from gunwork at the age of 6. As my stupid uncle lost interest when he got a new woman who didn't agree with shooting or working dogs. Grr

I thought she looked v.young too!


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

Would she care to pass on some tips for lessening wrinkles then please  
	
	
		
		
	


	




.  I think I could do with whatever cream she is using, LOL!!


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## MiLisCer (9 February 2007)

She will love you both - she is 30 (ok 26 really!) it must be all the money I fork out on the "clarins"

Mike


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

My mother uses Clarins....that must be why even she looks younger than me, LOL!!

I would have put Rena at about 26 - nice looking girl.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Oh and thanks Mike for being pleasant now......we're not a bunch of nasty folks on here but we do enjoy debating.


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## broomie (9 February 2007)

Err.... what on earth do Mike and Rena's house, dogs or anything else have to do with the original topic?

Whether you folk agree or don't agree with docking, the issue that was supposed to be under discussion is animal welfare and it has degenerated into complete drivel now.

Those of you who are so desperate to discuss 'chocolate box houses' should perhaps go and start a new thread about it and leave the serious matters to those that actually care about them.


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## GinaB (9 February 2007)

Chill out, the thread has had some very good points made but it seems most have made the points they want to get across. Its not a crime to make some convo and dicuss someones dogs!


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## Enfys (9 February 2007)

I think it's turned into a coffee break now, biscuits anyone?


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## GinaB (9 February 2007)

Pass the hob nobs!


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## Tia (9 February 2007)

It's called "thread hijacking" or "deviating from the original point" - it gives a bit of light relief and it happens all the time on this forum, however if you don't like it then I think you will be sorely disappointed with this forum.


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## Onyxia (9 February 2007)

(qr)
Docking for cosmetic reasons should have been banned a long time ago- no need for it.
However docking in working breeds to prevent injury I agree with, dont like it much but it prevents injury so worth doing IMO.


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## emma69 (9 February 2007)

Docking = amputation. Yes, I think that is pretty severe


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## Moggy in Manolos (9 February 2007)

Well most have had their say so i shall have mine.
I think much crueller more terrible things happen to animals in this world, i cant say i have huge thoughts on docking, just animal cruelty, now that riles me right up, i do not agree with docking for cosmetic reasons at all, and that sadly happens alot.  I dont know all the ins and outs of working dogs and related tail docking,it seems though that working dogs can have full tails from what i have read on this thread, so i think then- why should they be docked, this is my opinion and i like animals to be the way nature intended if they are good and healthy and happy,tail and all
I would agree to disagree with some of you however


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## zizz (10 February 2007)

so if its illegal to dock your puppies tail does that mean all the farmers are going to be banned from docking thier lambs tails?!


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## buzzles (10 February 2007)

I've got a springer spaniel with a half docked tail who came from a rescue centre. Shes not a working dog as such but a pet and is very active. She comes hacking with me and is always disappearing into the woods and dense undergrowth so I can understand the need for docking working dogs tails, but definitely not for cosmetic purposes and as long as it's done humanely. Anyway my spaniel is the happiest dog I know and having a docked tail has in no way affected her in that I don't think she's had a lesser quality of life than a dog with a full tail! However she does 'wiggle' a lot when shes wagging her tail which is quite amusing and I've also noticed this in boxers, rottweilers and dobermen who have docked tails! Is this their way of substituting tail wagging for bum wagging?! As a matter of interest does anyone know why these breeds of dogs have docked tails and why are they docked so short?


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## Dougie (10 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
so if its illegal to dock your puppies tail does that mean all the farmers are going to be banned from docking thier lambs tails?! 

[/ QUOTE ]

that will be blairs next mission!!


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## Torryvald (10 February 2007)

My field cocker has his whole tail, he regularly works and has nver injured himself. In most vets would agree that is it rare. People often tell me my dog looks 'weird with a tail!', time to come out of the dark ages - docking is cruel and should be banned.


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## MiLisCer (10 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
My field cocker has his whole tail, he regularly works and has nver injured himself. In most vets would agree that is it rare. People often tell me my dog looks 'weird with a tail!', time to come out of the dark ages - docking is cruel and should be banned. 

[/ QUOTE ]

What on earth is a field cocker? is that a breed you have invented as it certainly not a recognised KC breed.

Mike


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## Dougie (10 February 2007)

maybe she means cocker spaniel that she works in the field??

im on the edge of my seat waiting to see what part of country life is going to be banned next...


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## jj4y (10 February 2007)

Doesn't sound like the person is very knowledgeable on working gundogs from that post though


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## Tia (10 February 2007)

How condescending.....


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## Dougie (10 February 2007)

i hope u were using quick reply and not refering to me!


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## jj4y (10 February 2007)

I'm sorry but this forum appears VERY hypocritical...its ok for some people to comment on what others have said and yet not ok for other people to do the same.  The post was unclear, so was questioned....by 'field cocker' do they mean a cocker that is worked in the shooting field or a field spaniel x cocker???  As there is no such breed as a field cocker


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## Dougie (10 February 2007)

i take you were replying to the other post and using the bx at the bottom?


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## jj4y (10 February 2007)

yes dougie, had just used quick reply


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## Dougie (10 February 2007)

oh thats fine then


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## MagicMelon (11 February 2007)

I am glad the law has changed for all dogs in Scotland. With regard to working dogs - it has been done in horrendous ways in the past. If docking of working dogs tails was guaranteed to be done only by a vet then ok, but in the past it has been done badly by the owners themselves which I can only call barbaric. I do not know enough about the lifestyle of a working dog to decide if it need to be done or not. I have of course seen the odd picture of a working dog with nasty injuries to its tail but I do not know how often this sort of thing happens to merit docking. 

The fact that some people do it for cosmetic reasons has always shocked me. I hate seeing dogs with docked tails - to me it looks nasty.


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## severnmiles (12 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
My field cocker has his whole tail, he regularly works and has nver injured himself. In most vets would agree that is it rare. People often tell me my dog looks 'weird with a tail!', time to come out of the dark ages - docking is cruel and should be banned. 

[/ QUOTE ]

You're comparing a cocker to a springer...that laughable, I shan't bother to read any further...


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## severnmiles (12 February 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I hate seeing dogs with docked tails - to me it looks nasty. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Really nasty huh?


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## severnmiles (12 February 2007)

On second thoughts I rather like Milo, I'm not sure how Max and Paddy are bred, I'll ask them later though.  

Lovely dogs!


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## Romansmum (15 February 2007)

I have three JRT's one who was docked when i got him and two undocked.  My ladies have their tails as i never thought they'd work.  My dad has 2 working Jacks and they are docked as they work.

One of my ladies (who has a particularly long tail) has broken it twice and shreads it when she goes chasing after rats etc.  It's heartbreaking for me knowing hat al of that pain is caused because i didn't have her tail taken off.  My other girly had a fairly short natural tail and she only cuts up a little.  I should have realised that they will end up in brambles eventually in their life time

The vet has said that next time Biscuit breaks her tail he will take it off, under genral anesthetic which has all of the risks etc. she has managed to break it while out on walks, it has been bitten etc.

Here you go biscuit with her big ears and long tail








all three JRT's
Biscuit is in the middle  jasper with his docked tail is on the right


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