# Fosse Park Leicester horses



## Ladyinred (17 February 2014)

Many of you will have heard about this by now, it was on BBC news today and also in H&H news. Here is the FB address for the page, please like it, every person counts in making a valid protest:

https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Help-the-horses-of-Fosse-Park-Leicester/215018828693901


Over 23000 likes since 10pm last night!


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## Greylegs (17 February 2014)

This popped up on my Farcebook as well. Have liked .... Hope it helps.


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## merrymeasure (17 February 2014)

Dreadful. Not on Facebook, but have tweeted. Hope it helps these poor horses .


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## Cinnamontoast (17 February 2014)

The RSPCA reckon they can't do anything cos there's been no neglect. Then what the heck is this?!


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## LaMooch (17 February 2014)

There is an unhappy local on a facebook group who is annoyed that she has been reporting this for years and nothing done but now social media taken over and the wheels are set in motion and she not happy. Shouldn't taken this long but at least people are now listening


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## Amymay (17 February 2014)

I am appalled that the RSPCA refuse to act. I guess the phrase prevention of cruelty means nothing.....


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## Cinnamontoast (17 February 2014)

This is what an rspca spokesperson had to say about the situation...

&#8220;The location is not ideal due to recent flooding, but the horses are kept on a huge area of land and have areas of dry land they can move to freely. The owner attends and provides extra hay. [We] cannot just remove horses if there are no legal offences broken.&#8221;

Seriously? Nothing illegal about leaving a horse to die then leave its skeleton for however it takes to break down? Unbelievable. :mad3:


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## LaMooch (17 February 2014)

I cant remember where I read it but I think because they had water and food they wouldn't act. This is where the law needs changing


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## 1life (17 February 2014)

LaMooch said:



			I cant remember where I read it but I think because they had water and food they wouldn't act. This is where the law needs changing
		
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Exactly - this is the part of the law that needs changing. There is no point ranting and raving over how useless certain charities are (although I doubt that will stop a load of charity bashing over this case). They still have to act within the law...and I am sure they find this frustrating and at times heart-breaking.

I know of a case where a father could not be charged for neglect, after leaving his 2 year old daughter alone all day when he went to work, because he had left her with sandwiches and drink. Preposterous, but true. The law is an ass at times, but a charity HAS TO work within it.


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## Amymay (17 February 2014)

LaMooch said:



			I cant remember where I read it but I think because they had water and food they wouldn't act. This is where the law needs changing
		
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The law doesn't need changing - just upholding.

The Brewery that ownes the land have made a statement. And pressure is being put on them to act.


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## Ladyinred (17 February 2014)

LaMooch said:



			I cant remember where I read it but I think because they had water and food they wouldn't act. This is where the law needs changing
		
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This is it in a nutshell. The fact that others on the scene have reported the hay as inedible bears no weight to the removal of the horses. Apparently it is so bad a couple were unable to identify it as hay or haylage!

The RSPCA have to act within the law and the law states if they have access to food and water then they are alright. The RSPCA, through their previous history, are now fallguys or scapegoats for all this, whereas in fact their hands are as tied as ours.

Did anyone else pick up that when the owner visited today with the hay he also said he had food for them? He did. One loaf of Tesco value bread between 20 - 30 horses!


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## TrasaM (17 February 2014)

Are people remembering to sign the e petition .. Link on FB page


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## Amymay (17 February 2014)

Ladyinred said:



			This is it in a nutshell. The fact that others on the scene have reported the hay as inedible bears no weight to the removal of the horses. Apparently it is so bad a couple were unable to identify it as hay or haylage!
		
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You see, this is where I think that at times the RSPCA misinterpret the law.

Given the circumstances, food or no food, there is nothing within the law which would prevent the seizure of these animals.


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## Renvers (17 February 2014)

I saw it on FB and shared/signed the petition here http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/60985 

Hadn't been the horse in question was a rotted corpse, how on earth could someone allow that to happen, it is gruesome. 

As good as it is to show this terrible situation, it would be worth putting a warning on the Thread title to prepare them before seeing a very dead horse


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## LaMooch (17 February 2014)

Ladyinred said:



			This is it in a nutshell. The fact that others on the scene have reported the hay as inedible bears no weight to the removal of the horses. Apparently it is so bad a couple were unable to identify it as hay or haylage!

The RSPCA have to act within the law and the law states if they have access to food and water then they are alright. The RSPCA, through their previous history, are now fallguys or scapegoats for all this, whereas in fact their hands are as tied as ours.

Did anyone else pick up that when the owner visited today with the hay he also said he had food for them? He did. One loaf of Tesco value bread between 20 - 30 horses!
		
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And this is why the law needs changing


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## Amymay (17 February 2014)

LaMooch said:



			And this is why the law needs changing
		
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But it doesn't.  It just needs upholding.


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## dogatemysalad (17 February 2014)

amymay said:



			But it doesn't.  It just needs upholding.
		
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Perhaps the campaigners trying to stop the RSPCA taking out private prosecutions against owners who neglect their animals should ask themselves who is going to protect the hundreds of horses in the same situation as the fosse park ones ? 

Why not ask why the council has ignored the horses which have been there for years. or where has the WHW been ? Or perhaps Everards Brewery who owns the land and sees how these fields flood every single year. 

This is not a new problem, the cobs have grazed that land for many years and the council and the police have turned a blind eye.


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2014)

cinnamontoast said:



			The RSPCA reckon they can't do anything cos there's been no neglect. Then what the heck is this?! 






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It's a decomposed body.

How did it die?


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## Amymay (17 February 2014)

Moomin, this is a very serious issue, and the horses are in real trouble.

If you are anything to do with welfare, as you like to quietly imply please do what you can to help them. 

If you're not and your only intention is to post misdirection I would ask you not too. Please.


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2014)

amymay said:



			Moomin, this is a very serious issue, and the horses are in real trouble.

If you are anything to do with welfare, as you like to quietly imply please do what you can to help them. 

If you're not and your only intention is to post misdirection I would ask you not too. Please.
		
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I'm certainly not Amymay. I am asking how the horse died?

Without anyone knowing how it died, then we cannot say it was neglected.  Perhaps it was pts humanely?  The offence which is most obvious is the fact a carcass has been left to rot in a field.  In which case trading standards are the people to deal in relation to this particular horse.

Certainly not trying to 'misdirect' anything - I am merely saying that we cannot jump to conclusions on the basis of a photograph showing a rotting carcass.


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## LaMooch (17 February 2014)

It was a foal. Another horse was PTS being to exhausted to get up out of flood water


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## Amymay (17 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			I'm certainly not Amymay. I am asking how the horse died?

Without anyone knowing how it died, then we cannot say it was neglected.  Perhaps it was pts humanely?  The offence which is most obvious is the fact a carcass has been left to rot in a field.  In which case trading standards are the people to deal in relation to this particular horse.

Certainly not trying to 'misdirect' anything - I am merely saying that we cannot jump to conclusions on the basis of a photograph showing a rotting carcass.
		
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Then I suggest you visit the facebook page.


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## justabob (17 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			It's a decomposed body.

How did it die?
		
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Moomin, the fact that it has been there long enough to decompose would pose issues to the welfare of the other horses in the same field.


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## LaMooch (17 February 2014)

justabob said:



			Moomin, the fact that it has been there long enough to decompose would pose issues to the welfare of the other horses in the same field.
		
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Very true shouldn't be left to decompose however it died, be natural causes or euthanasia


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2014)

amymay said:



			Then I suggest you visit the facebook page.
		
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What, and read stuff posted by hear say?

I would prefer hard facts myself.


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2014)

LaMooch said:



			Very true shouldn't be left to decompose however it died, be natural causes or euthanasia
		
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And that's why I say that it should be an issue for trading standards, as it's an offence to leave a body to decompose.


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2014)

justabob said:



			Moomin, the fact that it has been there long enough to decompose would pose issues to the welfare of the other horses in the same field.
		
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Possibly true, but unfortunately it would have to be a vet that certifies that in order for any action to be taken.


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## Amymay (17 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			What, and read stuff posted by hear say?

I would prefer hard facts myself.
		
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Which I understand. Sadly all the information posted by the group is true.


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## LaMooch (17 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			And that's why I say that it should be an issue for trading standards, as it's an offence to leave a body to decompose.
		
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Trading Standards?????????? What would they do surely DEFRA or dare I say RSPCA be more use


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## justabob (17 February 2014)

LaMooch said:



			Very true shouldn't be left to decompose however it died, be natural causes or euthanasia
		
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I think what I was trying to say was, if the owners thought it reasonable to leave a dead horse to decompose in the same field as its living equines, it does beg the question about the welfare of the living.


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## Ladyinred (17 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			What, and read stuff posted by hear say?

I would prefer hard facts myself.
		
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I would assume that a person with your wealth of experience would be well able to sort the wheat from the chaff.. or indeed, the hard fact from the hearsay.

You might even be able to educate the rest of us lesser mortals.


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2014)

amymay said:



			Which I understand. Sadly all the information posted by the group is true.
		
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I take it you have first hand knowledge of the situation then?


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2014)

Ladyinred said:



			You might even be able to educate the rest of us lesser mortals.
		
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I highly doubt that...


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## Amymay (17 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			I take it you have first hand knowledge of the situation then?
		
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I have enough knowledge of the situation to know exactly what is happening. And it's very distressing.


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## LaMooch (17 February 2014)

So how you explain the pictures and the news reports if its hear say?


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2014)

amymay said:



			I have enough knowledge of the situation to know exactly what is happening. And it's very distressing.
		
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Perhaps BHS or WHW may help?


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## LaMooch (17 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Perhaps BHS or WHW may help?
		
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The police, land owner and believe it or not RSPCA are now involved and working together


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2014)

LaMooch said:



			The police, land owner and believe it or not RSPCA are now involved and working together
		
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Oh I see! Sorry, I assumed nothing was being done about it all.


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## Cinnamontoast (17 February 2014)

LaMooch said:



			I cant remember where I read it but I think because they had water and food they wouldn't act. This is where the law needs changing
		
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According to someone on site (and there are pictures for the doubting Thomas in our midst :rolleyes3 there is no boundary to prevent the foals getting not the water and being pulled away by the current. There is also lots of barbed wire and litter which the MD of the brewery has promised to sort out ASAP. 



amymay said:



			The law doesn't need changing - just upholding.

The Brewery that ownes the land have made a statement. And pressure is being put on them to act.
		
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Trouble is, if they change the use of the land or force the owner to move his horses, they will just end up in similar or worse places. We need to change the law re fly grazing as this appears (I could be wrong) to be that, pure and simple. I understand that a law was passed in Wales to try to eradicate fly grazing and perhaps the rest of the UK should follow suit.

Is this going to be the latest epic thread like the one about the Welsh guy? (Did he ever turn up?) Hope so, I think having the general horsey public on the case will be useful.


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## Adopter (17 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Perhaps BHS or WHW may help?
		
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There is a statement on WHW saying they are aware of the situation. At the end of the day charities pick up pieces when the laws allows them, why slate the charities the owner is responsible, and unless the law is broken everyone is left in the blame game. I do understand why everyone is so disresed about this, from what I have read it is an awful situation.

The equine charities are still trying to get the English government to take action on fly grazing, but DEFRA believe ASBOs will sort out the over horse population and fly grazing.  Just wish everyone would give their MPs a hard time over this so the law is changed.

The whole situation is very distressing for everyone, but the government needs to take action like the welsh parliament has.


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## FionaM12 (18 February 2014)

I find the fb page rather hard to work out the facts from. There's not much in the info section and the photos of living horses are distant. It does look very shambolic and unpleasant, but it's hard to be sure of the level of cruelty. Obviously leaving a rotting dead animal is horrible and unhygienic, as well as indicating a neglectful attitude. But much that's on the page are threads of comments and I can't tell who's got first hand info and who's making assumptions.


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## Ladyinred (18 February 2014)

FionaM12 said:



			I find the fb page rather hard to work out the facts from. There's not much in the info section and the photos of living horses are distant. It does look very shambolic and unpleasant, but it's hard to be sure of the level of cruelty. Obviously leaving a rotting dead animal is horrible and unhygienic, as well as indicating a neglectful attitude. But much that's on the page are threads of comments and I can't tell who's got first hand info and who's making assumptions.
		
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The admin threads are mainly first hand from Mark Johson the farrier who started all this. He found the horse in the water that was subsequently euthanased and he has today been involved with the RSPCA, someone from the local council and the owners of the land (a brewery) who leased it to the owner of the horses. He has also met with the owner of the horses.

There is, for an emotive subject such as this, surprisingly little in the way of assumptions being made. There are the usual militant "let's go and get these horses NOW" brigade and the usual collection of fluffies who mean well but whose knowledge is lacking (one, bless her, wanted everyone to go and brush the horses and put coats on them) TBH there are few assumptions to be made, the pictures and the BBC report all spoke volumes, basically what you see is what you get.

It is far removed from the Clwyd Davies scenario when the whole rescue operation was jeopardised by those with a 'poor old man' mind set. This is simply a raising of awareness so someone acts and gets the animals moved to a better place.. there are no 'characters' to feel sorry for and no one (yet) has suggested that the owner is anything less than neglectful; there is no sympathy vote for him.

In 24 hours we have 30000 followers. This is the tip of the iceberg, raising awareness of these animals is only a small part of what needs doing nationwide. This herd IS bred for meat, the owner has stated that... but no matter how you feel about that the aim is to get all horses kept in decent humane conditions.

Things have got to change, and change fast.

There was one post from someone in another country , not sure where, but it stated that the poster believed the British were a nation of animal lovers and ended up saying 'shame on you'  It made me think.


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## LaMooch (18 February 2014)

Well put Ladyinerd


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## Ladyinred (18 February 2014)

Two reports this morning to tell us that the story has been taken up by a news station in New Zealand! Amazing.


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## Patterdale (18 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Without anyone knowing how it died, then we cannot say it was neglected.  Perhaps it was pts humanely?.
		
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Oh get real. 

So what, some caring owner went to the hassle and expense of getting the horse PTS.....and then what? Just left it there..? Well, I suppose it COULD happen..:rolleyes3:

I don't know anything about this case, but I really don't have to to know that caring, conscientious owners don't leave dead horses to rot in the fields still grazed by all its mates. 



justabob said:



			I think what I was trying to say was, if the owners thought it reasonable to leave a dead horse to decompose in the same field as its living equines, it does beg the question about the welfare of the living.
		
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Quite.


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## millikins (18 February 2014)

I don't understand why horses bred for meat, and it is openly stated that is what they are for, do not have the same rights as any other farm animal.


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## bex1984 (18 February 2014)

I lived down the road for 7 years and drove past the horses here every day. It is not hearsay that it floods every year and it's actually not that badly flooded at the moment compared to previous years (sometimes you can't see grass at all). There's nothing to prevent horses getting into the river. There's a lot of barbed wire and rubbish. The horses usually have big bale straw in a ring feeder when the weather is bad. I've seen well meaning members of the public feeding them all sorts. People have been complaining about this for years.


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## Amymay (18 February 2014)

millikins said:



			I don't understand why horses bred for meat, and it is openly stated that is what they are for, do not have the same rights as any other farm animal.
		
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They do have the same rights,


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## Adopter (18 February 2014)

amymay said:



			They do have the same rights,
		
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Sadly since all the horsemeat scandal WHW are reporting that horses are now being  shipped live through our Docks as pets/competition horses for the meat trade in Europe.  No safeguards for them as to time without food and water, distance to travel.  There is a report of 90 wagons of horses being observed on one day leaving  for Europe, and this is replicated daily.  There are so many distressing angles to the current horse over population.


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## Hedwards (18 February 2014)

bex1984 said:



			I lived down the road for 7 years and drove past the horses here every day. It is not hearsay that it floods every year and it's actually not that badly flooded at the moment compared to previous years (sometimes you can't see grass at all). There's nothing to prevent horses getting into the river. There's a lot of barbed wire and rubbish. The horses usually have big bale straw in a ring feeder when the weather is bad. I've seen well meaning members of the public feeding them all sorts. People have been complaining about this for years.
		
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Yep, i work just around the corner, and people have been complaining for years, sadly the RSPCA have never done anything as technically there's nothing 'wrong'.

I hope the facebook page etc. will do some good...


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## Amymay (18 February 2014)

Please everyone, sign the petition on the FB page.


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## HappyHooves (18 February 2014)

YES!!   SIGN IT................ HERE and put your name to what you believe, and don't just commiserate!   http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/60985

Its not perfect but it is a start.


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## Woodsider (18 February 2014)

Signed it!!!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 February 2014)

Hedwards said:



			Yep, i work just around the corner, and people have been complaining for years, sadly the RSPCA have never done anything as technically there's nothing 'wrong'.

I hope the facebook page etc. will do some good...
		
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genuinely interested-i too have driven past these horses probably on average every other week, for the last 6/8 years.
i even commented to NMT last time (just prior to the floods) that they looked very well (or those we could see up against the fence did anyway).

they always have hay in bad weather and water.

have i missed something? are there emaciated ones away from the road view?

its horrendous one was (probably) left to die and rot away but equally unless we know what it died of, harder to make a call-if it went down quickly overnight with something and was dead when owner arrived he's guilty of little more than being a gross lazy *****. (obviously if horse is known to have died a long painful death its very different).

can anyone clarify for me please and thanks


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## Janesomerset (18 February 2014)

The Fosse Park "owner" has said he is having all the horses put down this afternoon, despite many offers to rehome them. I have never been one for the "RSPCA bashing" I have seen on this forum and others, but if they just stand by and watch this happen, they are a b****y national disgrace.


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## Ladyinred (18 February 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			.

have i missed something? are there emaciated ones away from the road view?

its horrendous one was (probably) left to die and rot away but equally unless we know what it died of, harder to make a call-if it went down quickly overnight with something and was dead when owner arrived he's guilty of little more than being a gross lazy *****. (obviously if horse is known to have died a long painful death its very different).

can anyone clarify for me please and thanks 

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We don't know how or why it died but the carcase had been there for some time judging by the amount of decomposition and feeding by scavengers. The one that had to be euthanased was found unable to stand in flood water. The fire service eventually got it out of the water and he did stand for a short while but the attending vet felt that it had little or no chance of surviving and pts.

Yes they appear to be fed, but the quality of the forage was so poor that people attending weren't even sure if it was meant to be hay or haylage.. it was black. I think I am correct in saying that a subsequent bale was of slightly better quality.

Aside from the state of the horses themselves there are problems with their environment. There is a lot of potentially dangerous rubbish in the field; trailing barbed wire in many places and nothing to stop them falling in the river.

They are not the worst but they deserve a lot lot better and highlight many of the problems rife in this country at the moment. As you know, there has been a massive response to the FB page and we hope that this case will help towards legislation that is properly applied and benefit the many hundreds of horses in similar situations around the country at the moment.

It was fortunate that someone like Mark Johnson and his son found the first horse struggling for life in the water. He is a very articulate and determined man and with his professional accreditation he can't be accused of not knowing about horses. I don't know him personally but have huge respect for the time and effort he has put into this so far.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 February 2014)

Ladyinred said:



			We don't know how or why it died but the carcase had been there for some time judging by the amount of decomposition and feeding by scavengers. The one that had to be euthanased was found unable to stand in flood water. The fire service eventually got it out of the water and he did stand for a short while but the attending vet felt that it had little or no chance of surviving and pts.

Yes they appear to be fed, but the quality of the forage was so poor that people attending weren't even sure if it was meant to be hay or haylage.. it was black. I think I am correct in saying that a subsequent bale was of slightly better quality.

Aside from the state of the horses themselves there are problems with their environment. There is a lot of potentially dangerous rubbish in the field; trailing barbed wire in many places and nothing to stop them falling in the river.

They are not the worst but they deserve a lot lot better and highlight many of the problems rife in this country at the moment. As you know, there has been a massive response to the FB page and we hope that this case will help towards legislation that is properly applied and benefit the many hundreds of horses in similar situations around the country at the moment.

It was fortunate that someone like Mark Johnson and his son found the first horse struggling for life in the water. He is a very articulate and determined man and with his professional accreditation he can't be accused of not knowing about horses. I don't know him personally but have huge respect for the time and effort he has put into this so far.
		
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thanks, do we know why the one down in the water WAS down?trapped?injured?emaciated and weak?

just trying to be very careful and clear about this as the horses have always looked fairly ok and the hay i could see was gold/greeny/yellowy up to 2 weeks ago but obviously i have not actually been in to the field, just driven past.

agree it is clearly not ideal though.


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## Patterdale (18 February 2014)

*dons tin hat*

If these horses are living a miserable life and destined to be transported for meat anyway..... Is it really so bad for them to just be out of it this afternoon?

I'm as fluffy as the next, trust me, but if the alternative to being PTS today is to paddle around being hungry for a few months then be killed anyway.....is it much of an alternative?


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## Ladyinred (18 February 2014)

Patterdale said:



			*dons tin hat*

If these horses are living a miserable life and destined to be transported for meat anyway..... Is it really so bad for them to just be out of it this afternoon?

I'm as fluffy as the next, trust me, but if the alternative to being PTS today is to paddle around being hungry for a few months then be killed anyway.....is it much of an alternative?
		
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Agree. Sadly I don't think this is what he will do. He is more likely to herd them onto a lorry and disappear them amongst family members.


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## Janesomerset (18 February 2014)

Patterdale said:



			*dons tin hat*

If these horses are living a miserable life and destined to be transported for meat anyway..... Is it really so bad for them to just be out of it this afternoon?

I'm as fluffy as the next, trust me, but if the alternative to being PTS today is to paddle around being hungry for a few months then be killed anyway.....is it much of an alternative?
		
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I would agree with that if these horses had not been offered sanctuary, but they have.


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## missmatch (18 February 2014)

The decomposed horse died from natural causes, it was not removed as there was no access to the site. The RSPCA had a jcb on there as soon as they were able too. The horse pts, was attended by the rspca who called a vet out and had the horse humanely euthanised. According to the law there is a legal requirement that owners have to provide their animals, believe it or not this has been adhered too within the law. Whilst it is not too our standards it conforms to legal standards. Should the rspca seize these horses that is theft. Next up will be the fb page stating the rspca stole their horses. Damned if they do , damned if they dont. The horses are the property of the owner if he wants to shoot them all he can. The rspca can do nothing about this. They cannot in any way shape or form stop him slaughtering his livestock. There are so many things wrong here but please know that the rspca are as handbound as you all are. We need to change the law, sign the petition to start that ball rolling. This is a multi agency rescue and has been for quite some time. Everything has to be done by the book.


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## diamonddogs (18 February 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			genuinely interested-i too have driven past these horses probably on average every other week, for the last 6/8 years.
i even commented to NMT last time (just prior to the floods) that they looked very well (or those we could see up against the fence did anyway).

they always have hay in bad weather and water.

have i missed something? are there emaciated ones away from the road view?...
		
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I know these fields well, and there's a big river (which I believe is part of the main canal through Leicester) which overflows just about every winter running through the fields. And these fields are massive, so very likely there are areas where the horses have been OK at certain times of year (laminitis aside of course). I wonder if they congregated in that particular area as this is where they had their occasional meals, though it doesn't sound like it if there was no access to move the foal's carcass, therefore no access to bring in forage. 

There are two problems here though - one, I'd give my right arm for a field like that, and I'd make sure I managed the pasture properly, cleaned it up and fenced off the dangerous areas - some of it is obviously unusable for grazing, but not all. Then the horses would be moved around regularly so the pasture had time to recover. But nobody cared enough to do this - Everards are absent landlords, so never checked all was well (do landlords have any responsibility to check the land is being looked after?) and the tenant was happy as long as he had somewhere cheap to keep his animals till he could cash them in. I don't believe these poor horses were deliberately hidden from view as the field is so big.

The other problem is, these poor animals, victims of indiscriminate breeding (for whatever purpose - they don't look as though you'd get a decent meal off the whole herd put together) after a long period of time become invisible to the public, who only become aware when something awful like this happens.

Keep sharing and signing the petition. There are probably thousands of horses, ponies and donkeys living in these conditions or worse, and it makes me weep because we can't help them all.


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## FionaM12 (18 February 2014)

Janesomerset said:



			The Fosse Park "owner" has said he is having all the horses put down this afternoon, despite many offers to rehome them. I have never been one for the "RSPCA bashing" I have seen on this forum and others, but if they just stand by and watch this happen, they are a b****y national disgrace.
		
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But what can they do? They have to act within the law.


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## Moomin1 (18 February 2014)

Janesomerset said:



			The Fosse Park "owner" has said he is having all the horses put down this afternoon, despite many offers to rehome them. I have never been one for the "RSPCA bashing" I have seen on this forum and others, but if they just stand by and watch this happen, they are a b****y national disgrace.
		
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That is a ridiculous comment. Nobody can possibly prevent someone humanely pts'ing their animals for any reason.  There are enough people on this forum who have pts due to all sorts of reasons other than health ones...


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## Adopter (18 February 2014)

FionaM12 said:



			But what can they do? They have to act within the law.
		
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Agree, it is not the charities at fault, but the owner.  So many seem to want to blame the hard working charities, police etc, but as you say  they have to act within the law.

It is the law that needs making fit for purpose and all the problems currently being experienced.


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## Janesomerset (18 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			That is a ridiculous comment. Nobody can possibly prevent someone humanely pts'ing their animals for any reason.  There are enough people on this forum who have pts due to all sorts of reasons other than health ones...
		
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Well, pardon me for being ridiculous, but I stupidly thought RSPCA stood for Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. So it's not cruel to watch scum kill a horse which could have had a happy life with someone else?
If said scum doesn't have passports for these animals, I don't see why they cannot be taken away to safety.


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## ester (18 February 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			thanks, do we know why the one down in the water WAS down?trapped?injured?emaciated and weak?

just trying to be very careful and clear about this as the horses have always looked fairly ok and the hay i could see was gold/greeny/yellowy up to 2 weeks ago but obviously i have not actually been in to the field, just driven past.

agree it is clearly not ideal though.
		
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video of the down horse PS, although I don't think that will fully answer your question.


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## Moomin1 (18 February 2014)

Janesomerset said:



			Well, pardon me for being ridiculous, but I stupidly thought RSPCA stood for Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. So it's not cruel to watch scum kill a horse which could have had a happy life with someone else?
If said scum doesn't have passports for these animals, I don't see why they cannot be taken away to safety.
		
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What is cruel about humane pts?

Last time I checked, there was no offence in having your animal pts humanely....


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## zigzag (18 February 2014)

Janesomerset said:



			Well, pardon me for being ridiculous, but I stupidly thought RSPCA stood for Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. So it's not cruel to watch scum kill a horse which could have had a happy life with someone else?
If said scum doesn't have passports for these animals, I don't see why they cannot be taken away to safety.
		
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He is breeding them for meat, they die today or in a few months


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## Janesomerset (18 February 2014)

Nothing, if there is no alternative, but these horses have been offered a chance of a decent life, which I believe they deserve as much (if not more) as any other living creature.



Moomin1 said:



			What is cruel about humane pts?
Scum isn't proposing doing this as a humane gesture. There is nothing humane about him.

Last time I checked, there was no offence in having your animal pts humanely....
		
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## LaMooch (18 February 2014)

Patterdale said:



			*dons tin hat*

If these horses are living a miserable life and destined to be transported for meat anyway..... Is it really so bad for them to just be out of it this afternoon?

I'm as fluffy as the next, trust me, but if the alternative to being PTS today is to paddle around being hungry for a few months then be killed anyway.....is it much of an alternative?
		
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I agree. Too many unwanted horses needing home's so it be best all round and for these horses to have these horses put out of their suffering


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## FionaM12 (18 February 2014)

It is distressing thinking of them all being pts this afternoon, I understand that. 

However, there are far more horses in need than there are good homes, we have a massive problem of too many poorly-bred unwanted horses. Them being pts at least ends their suffering.

As for "sanctuary" having been offered, do we know where and who? Many of the so-called rescues aren't able to adequately care for their animals either in the present climate.

I agree with Ladyinred, the trouble is they may not be pts but simply dispersed by the owner to suffer elsewhere.


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## chestnut cob (18 February 2014)

Janesomerset said:



			Nothing, if there is no alternative, but these horses have been offered a chance of a decent life, which I believe they deserve as much (if not more) as any other living creature.
		
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Would you be saying that if they were cattle or sheep?  These horses were bred and kept for meat so that fate is going to come to them anyway.  There is nothing cruel about having those horses put down.

Can I also ask what you propose happens to these horses once they are "rescued"?  They are probably not v well bred so possibly won't have the best conformation.  I'd imagine they come with a whole host of potential veterinary problems (worms at the very least, along with weight issues plus anything else associated with being kept in that manner), as well as probably being not terribly well handled.  They will need to be completely rehabilitated and begin their educations with the aim of *possibly* going on to be safe, well rounded riding horses.  I hate to say it but the charities are overwhelmed as it is.  There are so so many horses out there who are already useful riding horses which need homes.  Only so many horses can be "rescued" and rehomed.  Being put down isn't the worst fate that could befall an animal, and certainly not one destined for the bullet sooner or later for meat anyway.


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## Janesomerset (18 February 2014)

I believe that even if only one life is saved, it's worth it. My horse is a "rescue" horse. He was worth saving. Please, whatever your opinions, sign the petition to try to improve animal welfare. This is my last post on this forum.


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## Patterdale (18 February 2014)

Janesomerset said:



			I believe that even if only one life is saved, it's worth it. My horse is a "rescue" horse. He was worth saving. Please, whatever your opinions, sign the petition to try to improve animal welfare. This is my last post on this forum.
		
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You will find on this forum passion for horse welfare, but tempered with reasoned debate. 

You cannot simply 'go and get them,' as they are not yours. There ARE fates worse than a humane end. 

It is very easy to simply rant and rage but in reality - it doesn't solve anything.


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## Amymay (18 February 2014)

Patterdale said:



			You will find on this forum passion for horse welfare, but tempered with reasoned debate. 

You cannot simply 'go and get them,' as they are not yours. There ARE fates worse than a humane end. 

It is very easy to simply rant and rage but in reality - it doesn't solve anything.
		
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Completely agree.


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## Moomin1 (18 February 2014)

Janesomerset said:



			Nothing, if there is no alternative, but these horses have been offered a chance of a decent life, which I believe they deserve as much (if not more) as any other living creature.
		
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Humane gesture?!  It doesn't matter whether it's a 'humane gesture' or an inhumane cruel minded gesture, so long as the horses are pts HUMANELY.  

The horses can't understand his thoughts or feelings.


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## digitalangel (18 February 2014)

ive been banging my head against the facebook page pretty much all day. they are meat horses, if they are going to potters/turners they will have passports, the owner can do as he likes, nothing the public can do as they arent seen to be suffering. being in breach of the AWA isnt a criminal act in itself. Its all a very emotive business but there are horses in worse places and theres already a crisis with charities being full to the brim. Why dont the people offering these ponies a home offer one from a rescue centre?

Dont get me wrong, feel sorry for them and i dont think theyre being kept properly, ive just seen this too many times before with the RSPCA.


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## kp31 (18 February 2014)

digitalangel said:



			ive been banging my head against the facebook page pretty much all day. they are meat horses, if they are going to potters/turners they will have passports, the owner can do as he likes, nothing the public can do as they arent seen to be suffering. being in breach of the AWA isnt a criminal act in itself. Its all a very emotive business but there are horses in worse places and theres already a crisis with charities being full to the brim. Why dont the people offering these ponies a home offer one from a rescue centre?

Dont get me wrong, feel sorry for them and i dont think theyre being kept properly, ive just seen this too many times before with the RSPCA.
		
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The issue is if they were cattle or sheep they would not be treated in this way. Yes they may destined for meat but they are entitled to a certain level of care and consideration, neither which have been applied. I have lived in this area or my life and reported these horses along with other people numerous times and each time the RSPCA has done nothing. Is it right that dead carcasses are left in the field rotting, ponies get down that can't get up? Have you seen the news of the farmers delivering hay and feed to those in Somerset and surrounding areas hit by the floods, who can't get to their cattle? Farmers would care more for these animals than what this so called man has, and why should they be PTS so he can have his 5 minutes of fame? it makes an absolute mockery of us that we as an animal loving nation allow things like to happen. So good luck to those who are willing to put themselves out there and hopefully make a difference, change has to start somewhere.


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## LaMooch (18 February 2014)

kp31 said:



			The issue is if they were cattle or sheep they would not be treated in this way. Yes they may destined for meat but they are entitled to a certain level of care and consideration, neither which have been applied. I have lived in this area or my life and reported these horses along with other people numerous times and each time the RSPCA has done nothing. Is it right that dead carcasses are left in the field rotting, ponies get down that can't get up? Have you seen the news of the farmers delivering hay and feed to those in Somerset and surrounding areas hit by the floods, who can't get to their cattle? Farmers would care more for these animals than what this so called man has, and why should they be PTS so he can have his 5 minutes of fame? it makes an absolute mockery of us that we as an animal loving nation allow things like to happen. So good luck to those who are willing to put themselves out there and hopefully make a difference, change has to start somewhere.
		
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So true


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## Moomin1 (18 February 2014)

kp31 said:



			The issue is if they were cattle or sheep they would not be treated in this way. Yes they may destined for meat but they are entitled to a certain level of care and consideration, neither which have been applied. I have lived in this area or my life and reported these horses along with other people numerous times and each time the RSPCA has done nothing. Is it right that dead carcasses are left in the field rotting, ponies get down that can't get up? Have you seen the news of the farmers delivering hay and feed to those in Somerset and surrounding areas hit by the floods, who can't get to their cattle? Farmers would care more for these animals than what this so called man has, and why should they be PTS so he can have his 5 minutes of fame? it makes an absolute mockery of us that we as an animal loving nation allow things like to happen. So good luck to those who are willing to put themselves out there and hopefully make a difference, change has to start somewhere.
		
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So what sort of law would you suggest gets passed in order for certain people to be allowed to pts their animals, and others not?

It also depends, with regard ponies getting down and not back up, why they do so.  There are instances where they may go down suddenly with colic for instance.  As the majority of horse owners will know. We cannot be there 24/7 watching our horses.  They get ill, we cannot always be there.

I repeat again, if the RSPCA have done nothing in all of this time these horses have been neglected, then why didn't BHS or WHW step in?


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## honetpot (18 February 2014)

kp31 said:



			The issue is if they were cattle or sheep they would not be treated in this way. Yes they may destined for meat but they are entitled to a certain level of care and consideration, neither which have been applied. I have lived in this area or my life and reported these horses along with other people numerous times and each time the RSPCA has done nothing. Is it right that dead carcasses are left in the field rotting, ponies get down that can't get up? Have you seen the news of the farmers delivering hay and feed to those in Somerset and surrounding areas hit by the floods, who can't get to their cattle? Farmers would care more for these animals than what this so called man has, and why should they be PTS so he can have his 5 minutes of fame? it makes an absolute mockery of us that we as an animal loving nation allow things like to happen. So good luck to those who are willing to put themselves out there and hopefully make a difference, change has to start somewhere.
		
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Like this.
All animals should be treated with care and consideration whether they are going to end up on someone's plate or not, our welfare legislation is a joke.


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## LaMooch (18 February 2014)

honetpot said:



			Like this.
All animals should be treated with care and consideration whether they are going to end up on someone's plate or not, our welfare legislation is a joke.
		
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a complete and utter joke


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## honetpot (18 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			So what sort of law would you suggest gets passed in order for certain people to be allowed to pts their animals, and others not?

It also depends, with regard ponies getting down and not back up, why they do so.  There are instances where they may go down suddenly with colic for instance.  As the majority of horse owners will know. We cannot be there 24/7 watching our horses.  They get ill, we cannot always be there.

I repeat again, if the RSPCA have done nothing in all of this time these horses have been neglected, then why didn't BHS or WHW step in?
		
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The  BHS and WWF have not the resources of the RSPCA which seems to have become the judge and jury on animal welfare, the government have 'contracted out ' prosecutions to the RSPCA, because they are mainly done as private prosecutions it doesn't supposedly cost the tax payer money and the what ever government that is power are happy to defer to the RSPCA as experts. The government doesn't really want to get their hands dirty, its a PR nightmare. 
 The only good thing to come out of the horsemeat scandal is perhaps it will end the limbo of horses, if they are going for meat they should be subject to all the regulations that sheep, pigs and cattle keepers have to go though. There is no money in breeding horses for meat, far easier to buy a young TB racing reject straight from training.


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## Moomin1 (18 February 2014)

honetpot said:



			The  BHS and WWF have not the resources of the RSPCA which seems to have become the judge and jury on animal welfare, the government have 'contracted out ' prosecutions to the RSPCA, because they are mainly done as private prosecutions it doesn't supposedly cost the tax payer money and the what ever government that is power are happy to defer to the RSPCA as experts. The government doesn't really want to get their hands dirty, its a PR nightmare. 
 The only good thing to come out of the horsemeat scandal is perhaps it will end the limbo of horses, if they are going for meat they should be subject to all the regulations that sheep, pigs and cattle keepers have to go though. There is no money in breeding horses for meat, far easier to buy a young TB racing reject straight from training.
		
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BHS and WHW do not prosecute. But they are there for horse welfare. If these horses had/have welfare issues, they should have stepped in also.

It's a complete myth/rumour that either of these charities 'can not' act 'if the RSPCA say there is nothing wrong' as is often stated on these FB groups etc.  They can do as they wish.  The RSPCA are a charity just like them, they have no bearing on how or when other charities intervene.  That is up to the other charities.


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## Amymay (18 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			The RSPCA are a charity just like them, they have no bearing on how or when other charities intervene.  That is up to the other charities.
		
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Unfortunately it's often the case that the likes of WHW will not do anything if there is already an RSPCA involvement. And as far as this situation goes, that is certainly the case.


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## honetpot (18 February 2014)

Most of the welfare cases are private prosecutions, anyone can do this but the RSPCA has the money if you look at the charities commission website, Reg number 219099 http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/find-charities/
 has an income of ....132million (accounts 2012)  , where as the BHS has 8.2million and seems to spend most its income which comes mainly from members and has a wider remit of access and safety. 
 The WWF and the BHS just do not have the resources to do private prosecutions, the Crown Prosecution Service should be doing it rather than the money from individuals.


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## Regandal (18 February 2014)

Ladyinred said:



			Agree. Sadly I don't think this is what he will do. He is more likely to herd them onto a lorry and disappear them amongst family members.
		
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   And so the cycle will continue.   Far better they are PTS now.  Poor creatures, well better out of it.


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## Moomin1 (18 February 2014)

amymay said:



			Unfortunately it's often the case that the likes of WHW will not do anything if there is already an RSPCA involvement. And as far as this situation goes, that is certainly the case.
		
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I'm afraid that is not true Amymay.  

Both WHW and RSPCA officers work extremely closely on a daily basis and are very effective at working together on situations.  If both charities are made aware of the same situation, they will speak with each other directly and come to an agreement on the action to be taken.  Sometimes this involves WHW taking the reins, or vice versa.  But in no way, shape or form whatsoever will one charity stand by and visibly watch the other allow a neglect situation to continue with NO action taken by either charity.   WHW will usually liaise with RSPCA, and gather the facts along with the RSPCA, and both will come to a decision as to who will 'take the reins' and deal further to achieve the best result.  And vice versa.

There is little point in two lots of charities dealing with one incident in most cases.  Therefore when both are satisfied with the facts they have, they will make the decision as to who deals further.

To suggest WHW turn a blind eye to another charity who is allegedly 'allowing' neglect to continue under their nose is hardly very fair on WHW.


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## Honey08 (18 February 2014)

Interesting Moomin1.  I don't think that AM was saying one charity would turn a blind eye, I read it as one charity not getting involved if the other was already involved to save tripping over each other's work and both charities wasting money doing the same jobs..  Its nice  to know they do work together though.


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## FairyLights (18 February 2014)

bump


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## Moomin1 (18 February 2014)

[=0+-=============================================================000--QUOTE=Honey08;12325763]Interesting Moomin1.  I don/'t think that AM was saying one charity would turn a blind eye, I read it as one charity not getting involved if the other was already involved to save tripping over each other's work and both charities wasting money doing the same jobs..  Its nice  to know they do work together though.[/QUOTE]

Yes you are right there Honey08 - it is very much a case of not wasting each other's resources and money on the same job, but there is no way on earth that WHW would just back away and allow a neglectful situation not to be dealt with properly by the RSPCA. Like I say, both charities work extremely closely, a lot more than people realise, and the 'plan of action' is usually drawn up by both working together.  Unfortunately, where people then misinterpret the situation is because only one of the two charities is seen 'in the public eye' dealing with that situation, and the public won't know that both charities have liaised.


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## LaMooch (18 February 2014)

The hear-say/truth I don't which is The Sun has offered to buy the horses and find them homes. If true it is bloody stupid idea give the cruel money to buy more horses


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## Ladyinred (18 February 2014)

LaMooch said:



			The hear-say/truth I don't which is The Sun has offered to buy the horses and find them homes. If true it is bloody stupid idea give the cruel money to buy more horses
		
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 Sounds mad. But otoh the Sun bought a spanish donkey many years ago. Anything for publicity.


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## Amymay (18 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			I'm afraid that is not true Amymay.  

Both WHW and RSPCA officers work extremely closely on a daily basis and are very effective at working together on situations.  If both charities are made aware of the same situation, they will speak with each other directly and come to an agreement on the action to be taken.  Sometimes this involves WHW taking the reins, or vice versa.  But in no way, shape or form whatsoever will one charity stand by and visibly watch the other allow a neglect situation to continue with NO action taken by either charity.   WHW will usually liaise with RSPCA, and gather the facts along with the RSPCA, and both will come to a decision as to who will 'take the reins' and deal further to achieve the best result.  And vice versa.

There is little point in two lots of charities dealing with one incident in most cases.  Therefore when both are satisfied with the facts they have, they will make the decision as to who deals further.

To suggest WHW turn a blind eye to another charity who is allegedly 'allowing' neglect to continue under their nose is hardly very fair on WHW.
		
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I have not said the WHW are turning a blind eye. I have said that in this case they are taking no action (currently). This will change very quickly if asked to assist by the RSPCA.


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## Cinnamontoast (18 February 2014)

Janesomerset said:



			Nothing, if there is no alternative, but these horses have been offered a chance of a decent life, which I believe they deserve as much (if not more) as any other living creature.
		
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But if they're meat horses, they were destined to be slaughtered anyway so I don't think they should be re-homed by well meaning members of the public (gonna see them in whatsherfaces' living room, are we? :rolleyes3 They are the same as cattle, which would admittedly have caused far less of an outcry had they been discovered in poor conditions. 

The point, surely, is not to re-home these horses, but rather to improve conditions and make it a prosecutable offence if livestock is left to rot, literally. The animals have the right to be treated decently and to be fed correctly with vet treatment as needed. If this means seizing the animals and removing ownership and banning the owner from owning in future, then good.


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## Moomin1 (18 February 2014)

cinnamontoast said:



			But if they're meat horses, they were destined to be slaughtered anyway so I don't think they should be re-homed by well meaning members of the public (gonna see them in whatsherfaces' living room, are we? :rolleyes3 They are the same as cattle, which would admittedly have caused far less of an outcry had they been discovered in poor conditions. 

The point, surely, is not to re-home these horses, but rather to improve conditions and make it a prosecutable offence if livestock is left to rot, literally. The animals have the right to be treated decently and to be fed correctly with vet treatment as needed. If this means seizing the animals and removing ownership and banning the owner from owning in future, then good.
		
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It's already a prosecutable offence to leave carcasses to rot - one which trading standards or DEFRA should follow up.  

It's also law to provide an adequate diet and veterinary treatment where necessary, however it is not always black and white.  If, for instance, a horse suddenly went down with colic in the night, and was found down in the morning, or whenever, and the owner was unaware of it, then it is not reasonable to prosecute (unless of course the horse has colicked as a result of neglect or intentional means). If it cannot be proven that the cause of it is through neglect, and that the neglect is DEFINATELY caused by that person, rather than, let's say long term ragwort ingestion which may have occurred prior to that owner having that horse, then it is extremely difficult (and would be pretty unreasonable really) to prosecute.  So whilst a situation may look dire (and it may well be), it is not always cut and dried when it comes to the law and proceedings unfortunately, because as with any other law, there are definitions and clauses to be adhered to. If no offence can be proven to fit into that category, then sadly not much can be done.  It is not whether it 'actually did happen' - it's whether it can be proven in a court of law.


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## YorksG (18 February 2014)

Moomin1 is absolutely right, the law insists on proof and evidence,  not what "everybody knows" and the "something must be done" school  of thought. The laws are there to  protect the majority of law abiding citizens, their rights and property. If the law is broken and there is evidence of this, action can be taken.


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## Cinnamontoast (18 February 2014)

The removing of animals from someone's 'care' is the bit I'm focused on. I think this should be made less complicated.


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## Moomin1 (18 February 2014)

cinnamontoast said:



			The removing of animals from someone's 'care' is the bit I'm focused on. I think this should be made less complicated.
		
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An animal can only be removed under either Section 19 of PACE (Police and Criminal Evidence Act)  or Section 18 of the Animal Welfare Act (subsections 5 and 6).  Under the prior, the animal can only be removed if it is deemed 'evidence' of an offence.  So therefore there would have to be evidence of that offence in order for the police to seize the animal and hand over to the RSPCA.  Under Section 18 of the AWA, a vet has to certify that the animal is suffering, or likely to suffer, if it's circumstances do not change in order for it to be taken into possession by a police officer.  The only time where a vet would not be consulted or needed is if the situation is such that it is not practicable to await for a vet to attend (so in immediate danger and needs moving instantly).

ETA - It can't really be made any less complicated because as YorksG says, the law is set out to provide a certain amount of protection to law abiding citizens also. As the law stands, it basically means that an expert witness, ie mostly a qualified vet, has to certify that the animal is suffering or likely to, or provide 'support' towards a prosecution.  And this is where sometimes situations differ - not all vets will agree for instance on 'mental suffering and distress'.


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## be positive (18 February 2014)

cinnamontoast said:



			The removing of animals from someone's 'care' is the bit I'm focused on. I think this should be made less complicated.
		
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I think it is the fact that horses are more complicated to remove, it seems so much easier to go to someones home see a neglected or untreated dog, cat or other small animal make a few suggestions of taking  further action so that the owner takes the "easy" option and signs the animal over, paperwork done, animal loaded into van taken to vets and assessed, on to next stage whatever that may be. 
For a group of horses it is so much more complicated, locate the owner, if that is even possible, try and arrange for things to improve, if nothing is done back in contact, get police involved then transport required and numerous people to assist especially if dealing with semi feral horses in a huge area, it is also far more difficult to intimidate   the type of person that keeps such horses, they do not bow down as easily as a pet owner may do when faced with the threat of court action. It should be easier but to seize a group of 10 horses is logistically far more difficult that 10 dogs or cats and I think that is why horses get left in conditions beyond what most of us would consider acceptable.


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## YorksG (18 February 2014)

be positive said:



			I think it is the fact that horses are more complicated to remove, it seems so much easier to go to someones home see a neglected or untreated dog, cat or other small animal make a few suggestions of taking  further action so that the owner takes the "easy" option and signs the animal over, paperwork done, animal loaded into van taken to vets and assessed, on to next stage whatever that may be. 
For a group of horses it is so much more complicated, locate the owner, if that is even possible, try and arrange for things to improve, if nothing is done back in contact, get police involved then transport required and numerous people to assist especially if dealing with semi feral horses in a huge area, it is also far more difficult to intimidate   the type of person that keeps such horses, they do not bow down as easily as a pet owner may do when faced with the threat of court action. It should be easier but to seize a group of 10 horses is logistically far more difficult that 10 dogs or cats and I think that is why horses get left in conditions beyond what most of us would consider acceptable.
		
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I do not agree that the law and due process should ever be circumvented by people being intimidated into signing their animals over. It is never correct to misuse or break the law to reach the end you want, if the end justifies the means in this case, when do we say that the end does not justify the means?


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## ester (19 February 2014)

were they PTS yesterday?


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## Cinnamontoast (19 February 2014)

According to the Facebook page, no.


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## Amaranta (19 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Oh I see! Sorry, I assumed nothing was being done about it all.
		
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Assume makes an ass out of you and me.  

And before you ask - yes I do have knowledge and NO it is not heresay

For someone who professes to be for equine welfare you sure do have a peculiar way of showing it.


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## Amaranta (19 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			I'm afraid that is not true Amymay.  

Both WHW and RSPCA officers work extremely closely on a daily basis and are very effective at working together on situations.  If both charities are made aware of the same situation, they will speak with each other directly and come to an agreement on the action to be taken.  Sometimes this involves WHW taking the reins, or vice versa.  But in no way, shape or form whatsoever will one charity stand by and visibly watch the other allow a neglect situation to continue with NO action taken by either charity.   WHW will usually liaise with RSPCA, and gather the facts along with the RSPCA, and both will come to a decision as to who will 'take the reins' and deal further to achieve the best result.  And vice versa.

There is little point in two lots of charities dealing with one incident in most cases.  Therefore when both are satisfied with the facts they have, they will make the decision as to who deals further.

To suggest WHW turn a blind eye to another charity who is allegedly 'allowing' neglect to continue under their nose is hardly very fair on WHW.
		
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In THIS instance WHW say they cannot get involved unless invited to do so by the RSPCA, again not hearsay but from the horse's mouth so to speak.  I suspect your information is outdated, as this is not the first time I have heard it said, although to be fair it is the first time I have had first hand information on it.

The RSPCA cannot just go in and take these horses, there is no argument there and is one of the reasons the laws need changing, although having said that, the RSPCA also need to ensure that more of their operatives have a better understanding of horses and their needs, this is especially pertinent at the moment.


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## LaMooch (19 February 2014)

cinnamontoast said:



			According to the Facebook page, no.
		
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Has the owner agreed to sell them to The Sun newspaper yet?


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## FionaM12 (19 February 2014)

LaMooch said:



			Has the owner agreed to sell them to The Sun newspaper yet?
		
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If that's really happening, it's bonkers. Rewarding a neglectful horsemeat breeder in order to make a trashy newspaper look "good".

The owner of the poor horses must be delighted.


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## LaMooch (19 February 2014)

FionaM12 said:



			If that's really happening, it's bonkers. Rewarding a neglectful horsemeat breeder in order to make a trashy newspaper look "good".

The owner of the poor horses must be delighted.
		
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yep and give him funds to by some more horses and do the same again


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## FionaM12 (19 February 2014)

LaMooch said:



			yep and give him funds to by some more horses and do the same again
		
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Absolutely. What a businessman. He'll be on Dragon's Den next.


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## Moomin1 (19 February 2014)

Amaranta said:



			Assume makes an ass out of you and me.  

And before you ask - yes I do have knowledge and NO it is not heresay

For someone who professes to be for equine welfare you sure do have a peculiar way of showing it.
		
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..Oh dear....

You do realise what hearsay is don't you?...

The information that every single person gives on here, and FB, is hearsay, unless THEY are the people dealing FIRST HAND with the situation.


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## Ladyinred (19 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			..Oh dear....

You do realise what hearsay is don't you?...

The information that every single person gives on here, and FB, is hearsay, unless THEY are the people dealing FIRST HAND with the situation.
		
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Oh Moomin, every single welfare related thread you appear making negative comments, deflecting from the issue and patronising other posters. Could you possibly give it a break and let us get on with what we are doing? You stated earlier that you haven't read the page and didn't intend to so your opinion, in this instance, is more ill-informed than others.. yet you still preach the gospel of Moomin at every opportunity. It's getting wearing, we know the legalities and we know the facts.


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## Moomin1 (19 February 2014)

Ladyinred said:



			Oh Moomin, every single welfare related thread you appear making negative comments, deflecting from the issue and patronising other posters. Could you possibly give it a break and let us get on with what we are doing? You stated earlier that you haven't read the page and didn't intend to so your opinion, in this instance, is more ill-informed than others.. yet you still preach the gospel of Moomin at every opportunity. It's getting wearing, we know the legalities and we know the facts.
		
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Clearly...


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## Ibblebibble (19 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Clearly...
		
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pffft is that the best you can come up with, what exactly have you done for horse welfare lately, what causes have you put your time and effort into? I know for a fact that at least 2 of the posters on this thread are giving their time freely and willingly to help the farrier involved with this case, what have you done Moomin apart from try to pick to pieces every effort made by others?


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## Moomin1 (19 February 2014)

Ibblebibble said:



			pffft is that the best you can come up with, what exactly have you done for horse welfare lately, what causes have you put your time and effort into? I know for a fact that at least 2 of the posters on this thread are giving their time freely and willingly to help the farrier involved with this case, what have you done Moomin apart from try to pick to pieces every effort made by others?
		
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I haven't 'picked apart' anybody's efforts whatsoever. I have pointed out the law, and the fact that you cannot believe everything that is said on 'facebook groups' which concern themselves over highly emotive subjects and create hype, hysteria, and a hell of a lot of hearsay.  That is all.

I have just had a brief look at the facebook page now - and within a few seconds had spotted numerous posts which are completely factually incorrect, but are written with such authority and 'knowledge' that anybody would believe it to be completely true.

Where have I been personal to any individual poster on this thread? Where have I 'knocked' any efforts to help?!  Nowhere....I think it's fantastic people are doing what they can, but where I don't find it fantastic is when you get so many rumours and hype which are created by social media.


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## Ibblebibble (19 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			I have just had a brief look at the facebook page now - and within a few seconds had spotted numerous posts which are completely factually incorrect, but are written with such authority and 'knowledge' that anybody would believe it to be completely true.

I think it's fantastic people are doing what they can, but where I don't find it fantastic is when you get so many rumours and hype which are created by social media.
		
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and is this forum not a form of social media where you yourself write posts with 'such authority and knowledge' under a name which hides your identity? how do any of us know that you actually know anything about animal welfare and the law, you could be a balding 50 yr old who hasn't left his house in 5 years who has never owned more than a hamster!  yes you do get some over passionate hysterical types on the facebook pages, but when you've been dealing with those types for the last year like some of us have, you get to spot them pretty quick and also work out which people are genuine and worth listening to and engaging with.


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## Amaranta (19 February 2014)

Well said Ibblebibble, personally I am sick to death of people (and yes I do mean you Moomin) who DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS, castigate others, calling their efforts 'hearsay' yet at the same time, making their assumptions whilst listening to 'hearsay'.

I cannot put here what I would like to as I would probably get banned but Moomin, please forgive me if we do not take any notice of your negativity but let me also assure you, we have a perfect understanding of the law concerning welfare, you do not have the monopoly on knowledge and have NO idea what we do and do not know.


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## piebaldsparkle (19 February 2014)

THIS IS COMPLETE HEARSAY and HAS NO BEARING ON THIS THREAD AT ALL - 

I hear Moonmin1 is really a fat balding 50 year old man, who wears a string vest with breakfast stains on that hasn't left the house in 5 years and lives life though the internet probably called Brian and still lives with his mum who he is scared of!

Of course there could be no truth in the above at all...............................but could explain a lot!


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## YorksG (19 February 2014)

I have often disagreed with Moomin1 on this forum, however on this occasion I am in complete agreement with her. Links to petitions, which in essence would potentially trample on law abiding citizens riights, which are diametrically opesed to the way British law works, does nothing to further the cause of these horses. Would the people who would like  to  see horses  removed on the say so of a charity, like to  see children removed with the same  level of evidence, or the mentally ill removed from their homes against    their will by a chharity?


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## Ibblebibble (19 February 2014)

as someone who suffers MH problems i find being used in a comparison to animal welfare an insult!! are you saying children and the mentally ill have the same level of rights as animals?!  if not wtf do people continually use them in their arguments about welfare?


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## Ladyinred (19 February 2014)

Ibblebibble said:



			as someone who suffers MH problems i find being used in a comparison to animal welfare an insult!! are you saying children and the mentally ill have the same level of rights as animals?!  if not wtf do people continually use them in their arguments about welfare?
		
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Like.


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## YorksG (19 February 2014)

Ibblebibble said:



			as someone who suffers MH problems i find being used in a comparison to animal welfare an insult!! are you saying children and the mentally ill have the same level of rights as animals?!  if not wtf do people continually use them in their arguments about welfare?
		
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Please read my post again, surely we put the welfare of humans above that of animals, so by  that standard intervention should happen sooner when it is thought that a person is at risk of harm? If we are going to change the law to ensure that animals are protected, on the say so of one agency, we should apply the same change of law to protect people.


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## Moomin1 (19 February 2014)

Ibblebibble said:



			and is this forum not a form of social media where you yourself write posts with 'such authority and knowledge' under a name which hides your identity? how do any of us know that you actually know anything about animal welfare and the law, you could be a balding 50 yr old who hasn't left his house in 5 years who has never owned more than a hamster!  yes you do get some over passionate hysterical types on the facebook pages, but when you've been dealing with those types for the last year like some of us have, you get to spot them pretty quick and also work out which people are genuine and worth listening to and engaging with.
		
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Very true.


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## magicmoose (19 February 2014)

I don't believe that we should give any charity the right to seize animals (no matter how well intentioned). Those powers should quite rightly remain with the police, under the advice of a qualified vet.

PETA is an animal charity - should they have the right to seize NH racehorses because they believe that racing is abusive? Or livestock from farms because we shouldn't be eating meat? Where would you draw the line?


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## missmatch (19 February 2014)

Wow!! This is a thread regarding horses at Fosse park, not a rip each other to bits thread. This is the issue with people, there are so many heightened emotions surrounding these horses that soon the wood is completely lost to the trees. 
The horses are ok, not anywhere near what we would consider acceptable but they are ok
We all love our horses like our babies. To this owner they are £ signs. This is not illegal. 
The welfare agencies are working together. The RSPCA are dealing with this. The vet was onsite yesterday. It is intolerably slow but progress is being made
Please please please put all your passion into helping these horses and the thousands just like them. 
Otherwise this just resembles the Facebook group - which is full of hatred and spite. You are all so much better than that.


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## Moomin1 (19 February 2014)

The problem with these social media sites/groups that are created these days over issues like this, is that it ends up a snowball effect, with warped information from all sorts of sources (well meaning perhaps, I am not saying otherwise), and at the end of the day it starts becoming very mob like, resulting in a lot of instances being trial by media.

Some people just don't think before they jump to conclusions.  One post on the fb group actually said that they 'couldn't believe that nobody could find any offence of neglect and suffering when there is a carcass lying there which is so decomposed that nobody can tell how it died' (their words).  Well, that's the EXACT point - if nobody can tell HOW and WHY a horse died because it is so decomposed, then nobody can possibly present that infront of a court of law and say it was caused to suffer through neglect. Simple.  We may take a very good guess that it may have, or so and so down the road may say it had, but it is NOT evidence.  Just the same as if a human body washes up on the shore completely decomposed with no way of telling how it came to that demise.  It may well be that person fell in and drowned.  Or they may well have been murdered. Or committed suicide.  A decomposed horse may well have been pts humanely, or died of natural causes, or may well have been neglected and starved. But unless it can be proven by post mortem that was the case, then there is nothing that can be done.

I am not trying to be negative when I say this - it is fact.


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## missmatch (19 February 2014)

Moomin is 100% right. There is absolutely no evidence of any offence hence why the RSPCA have been unable to respond as some people would like. 
It's sad but true.


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## YorksG (19 February 2014)

missmatch said:



			Moomin is 100% right. There is absolutely no evidence of any offence hence why the RSPCA have been unable to respond as some people would like. 
It's sad but true.
		
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It is hardly sad that there is no evidence of an offence!


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## missmatch (19 February 2014)

It is sad that they are unable to prosecute as there is no evidence of an offence, I should have clarified that.


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## Moomin1 (19 February 2014)

missmatch said:



			It is sad that they are unable to prosecute as there is no evidence of an offence, I should have clarified that.
		
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Maybe there wasn't an offence at all in the instance of the dead horse? It may have died of natural causes or been pts?  With regard the rotting carcass being left, yes it is an offence - but not one which the RSPCA should deal with. That as I have said before is down to trading standards and DEFRA.


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## YorksG (19 February 2014)

missmatch said:



			It is sad that they are unable to prosecute as there is no evidence of an offence, I should have clarified that.
		
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Well thank goodness we only prosecute onevidence, rather than "what everybody knows" If there is no evidence of an offence, there IS no offence!


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## missmatch (19 February 2014)

Maybe there wasnt, there was simply no way of telling. The carcass could not be removed due to access issues. Both horses were removed as soon as they were able to get a jcb on the land
I agree with you it was not an RSPCA issue but they are the first port of call from the public even for dead animals.


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## Moomin1 (19 February 2014)

missmatch said:



			Maybe there wasnt, there was simply no way of telling. The carcass could not be removed due to access issues. Both horses were removed as soon as they were able to get a jcb on the land
I agree with you it was not an RSPCA issue but they are the first port of call from the public even for dead animals.
		
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Yes and I think that is where the public are misinterpreting - I think people see a dead animal and always jump straight to the conclusion it must be neglect or foul play.  They also then don't realise (no fault of their own at all, just the way it is) that establishing whether any offence may or may not have been committed depends greatly (almost completely) on the level of decomposition of the animal. If it is too decomposed, then it will not be possible to ascertain how and why that animal died.  

The problem with a picture such as the one in this instance with a decomposed carcass, is that it's human nature to be shocked, horrified and automatically think it must be bad and must be neglect etc etc.  Then the good old social media sites get started, and Joe Bloggs and his wife post this, and someone else that, and a furore gets up, and people lose all sight of reason.  If they looked outside the box just for a minute, they may come to the thought that in fact, that carcass may have died naturally, with no suffering caused by a human being whatsoever.  And before anyone jumps on me, I am NOT saying that there are or aren't issues here with the general welfare, I am just talking generally.


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## Patterdale (20 February 2014)

magicmoose said:



			I don't believe that we should give any charity the right to seize animals (no matter how well intentioned). Those powers should quite rightly remain with the police, under the advice of a qualified vet.

PETA is an animal charity - should they have the right to seize NH racehorses because they believe that racing is abusive? Or livestock from farms because we shouldn't be eating meat? Where would you draw the line?
		
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Fully agree with this. 
Putting this kind of power into the hands of charities would be v dangerous indeed IMO.


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## lannerch (20 February 2014)

I to apart from the decomposed carcass , am struggling to see the problem here.
The horses in the background all look very well to me or am I missing something if they really are being fed black hay it seems to be working!

I regularly see dead calfs and cows carcasses at a local dairy farm, they are only left one or two days before being picked up and removed , however they are on hardcore and easy to reach.

Death happens, animals die in the wild  no one picks them up , although not ideal I really cannot understand all the fuss here!


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## Kaycee (20 February 2014)

So a younghorse collapsed in the flood water and subsequently destroyed by a vet is okthen??! With all due respect, you need to witness the situation first handbefore you can casually dismiss it as a big fuss about nothing. As someone wholives nearby and has witnessed the appalling state of these animals for manyyears, I for one am so grateful for all the support via the social media and Imhopeful that something will at last be done, as up until now all of thecomplaints to the relevant authorities have fallen on deaf ears.


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## Moomin1 (20 February 2014)

Kaycee said:



So a younghorse collapsed in the flood water and subsequently destroyed by a vet is okthen??! With all due respect, you need to witness the situation first handbefore you can casually dismiss it as a big fuss about nothing. As someone wholives nearby and has witnessed the appalling state of these animals for manyyears, I for one am so grateful for all the support via the social media and I&#8217;mhopeful that something will at last be done, as up until now all of thecomplaints to the relevant authorities have fallen on deaf ears.

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With all due respect, 'witnessing' a collapsed horse is no proof of anything.

Perhaps it collapsed due to sudden colic?  Perhaps it had an underlying condition?  Or yes, perhaps it was neglected.

People need to take a step back and think outside the box.  Only the owner, officers involved, and the vets know exactly what is going on, despite numerous (oh and there are hundreds) Joe Bloggs claiming to know because they 'saw it as they drove past', or so and so said they went and spoke to so and so at the scene.


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## missmatch (20 February 2014)

What would you all like to be done? Realistically what would you do different whilst staying within the boundaries of the law? The only thing that reasonably can be done now is to support a petition to change the law. The loophole on horsemeat export is being dealt with. I believe that comes into effect in May, I may be wrong. If horses are to be bred for meat then the breeders should adhere to the same rules as those breeding cattle etc... There is an update today regarding the horses and a statement is due later, hopefully people can see that things were happening all along


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## ChesnutsRoasting (20 February 2014)

I'm interested to know how long it would take for a carcass of that size to reach that level of decomposition? Haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if it has already been discussed.


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## diamonddogs (20 February 2014)

Yes, so would I.

And as a caring horse owner, I would be absolutely mortified if a horse died in her field and was left overnight without good reason, let alone so long that only pelt and bones remained (I've seen the latest pics on FB and there are bones that have been lying around for years). Are we expected to believe that happy, healthy horses don't care if carcasses are left to rot where they're trying to graze?

And sorry, lack of access to remove the carcasses doesn't cut it - if the RSPCA or whoever could get a JCB in there with a couple of days' notice, that scumbag could too.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (20 February 2014)

justabob said:



			Moomin, the fact that it has been there long enough to decompose would pose issues to the welfare of the other horses in the same field.
		
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I agree. I'm just thinking that if the RSPCA are unable to prosecute under the Animal Welfare Act, could another authority prosecute instead http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/881/regulation/6/made. I don't know anything regarding law and I could be barking up the wrong tree entirely, but Someone, somewhere must be able to pin something on the owner?


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## Moomin1 (20 February 2014)

diamonddogs said:



			Yes, so would I.

And as a caring horse owner, I would be absolutely mortified if a horse died in her field and was left so long that only pelt and bones remained (I've seen the latest pics on FB and there are bones that have been lying around for years). Are we expected to believe that happy, healthy horses don't care if carcasses are left to rot where they're trying to graze?
		
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Plenty of horses in the wild graze around carcasses.

That being said, no, of course it isn't acceptable for a rotting carcass to be left in a field with other animals. Hence why it is an offence which trading standards or DEFRA should deal with.


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## Moomin1 (20 February 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			I agree. I'm just thinking that if the RSPCA are unable to prosecute under the Animal Welfare Act, could another authority prosecute instead http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/881/regulation/6/made. I don't know anything regarding law and I could be barking up the wrong tree entirely, but Someone, somewhere must be able to pin something on the owner?
		
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As I have said a few times, carcasses left to rot in fields are dealt with by trading standards and DEFRA.

As for people arguing that it is a 'welfare' concern to other horses in the field to be subjected to grazing around a carcass, well, you would have to get a vet to support on a prosecution saying that the rotting carcass is either causing those live horses to suffer, or be likely to suffer if it is not removed.  Most vets won't even go near giving any evidence on 'mental suffering' as it is so subjective.  Physical suffering - what sort of physical suffering may be caused to live animals grazing around a carcass?  Don't know myself...answers on a postcard...


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## diamonddogs (20 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			...Physical suffering - what sort of physical suffering may be caused to live animals grazing around a carcass?  Don't know myself...answers on a postcard...
		
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Flies mainly. Mentally though, I don't know if a horse would be distressed by witnessing a known predator such as a fox, lion or sabre tooth tiger munching away on one of its herdmates. I would hazard a guess that they'd run for the hills till the predator had had its fill and left the scene, but I honestly don't know.


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## Moomin1 (20 February 2014)

diamonddogs said:



			Flies mainly. Mentally though, I don't know if a horse would be distressed by witnessing a known predator such as a fox, lion or sabre tooth tiger munching away on one of its herdmates. I would hazard a guess that they'd run for the hills till the predator had had its fill and left the scene, but I honestly don't know.
		
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As far as I am aware, there are no lions or sabre tooth tigers in this country.....


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## OWLIE185 (20 February 2014)

The rotting carcass is an issue which should be taken up by DEFRA and Trading Standards.  They need to identify the owner of the dead horses and the cause of death of the horses concerned  If a vet or slaughter man was involved then they need to take a statement from them as well.  Once this has been done it should be possible to demonstrate if the owner of the dead horses may have been negligent and if he has a case to answer to in which case he should be charged,  prosecuted and go through the court system to be judged and sentenced.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (20 February 2014)

Moomin, There should be no need to have to prove anything, non-removal of fallen stock is an offence in itself.A rotting carcass would attract vermin and I would also be concerned regarding public health and water contamination. Makes you laugh, put a muck heap near a ditch and environmental health will want your blood, but a rotting carcass is fine? Another example of Barmy Britain.


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## Moomin1 (20 February 2014)

OWLIE185 said:



			The rotting carcass is an issue which should be taken up by DEFRA and Trading Standards.  They need to identify the owner of the dead horses and the cause of death of the horses concerned  If a vet or slaughter man was involved then they need to take a statement from them as well.  Once this has been done it should be possible to demonstrate if the owner of the dead horses may have been negligent and if he has a case to answer to in which case he should be charged,  prosecuted and go through the court system to be judged and sentenced.
		
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How can they identify cause of death from a pile of skin and bones? It's impossible.  They can only go from information given by the owner and other first hand resources, which in this instance, apparently, the horse died from natural causes.  As far as the carcass goes, then you don't need to establish cause of death in order for it to be an offence for the carcass to be left.  Like you say, it is within the remit of trading standards and defra to deal with that side of things.


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## Patterdale (20 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			As far as I am aware, there are no lions or sabre tooth tigers in this country.....
		
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*Snort*

Can you prove it?    


Seriously though - yes, not removing a rotting carcass is an offence, but one that is committed by hundreds of farmers weekly (not us though!). 
It's really not a rare thing. 
And I agree, they can't really PM a skeleton. 

The welfare services are stuck. They CAN'T prosecute or remove animals without proof, of which there is NONE. Being a bit lean and muddy is not an offence in itself, and even though its not how WE might keep horses, that doesn't mean it's right, legally, to just wade in and take them.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (20 February 2014)

lannerch said:



			I to apart from the decomposed carcass , am struggling to see the problem here.
The horses in the background all look very well to me or am I missing something if they really are being fed black hay it seems to be working!

I regularly see dead calfs and cows carcasses at a local dairy farm, they are only left one or two days before being picked up and removed , however they are on hardcore and easy to reach.

Death happens, animals die in the wild  no one picks them up , although not ideal I really cannot understand all the fuss here!
		
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me too.

the others look well, some even too blinkin well and portly!

if the horse died of a sudden colic etc then the worst offence is the none removal of the carcass which is gross but hardly worth this fuss.

equally until i hear the  horse collapsed in the water was weak through malnutrition, i will reserve judgment-broken leg, sudden illness, trapped by debris bought in by flood water, possibilities are numerous.

being muddy and wormy are not really worthy of this ...... I see the horses regularly enough and whilst not in ideal conditions they always look ok.


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## Cherryade (20 February 2014)

Aside frim the carcass which has now been removed, I cant see any problem- granted they arent being kept as well as some would like but neglected I'm not too sure. Theres plenty more out there iving in even worse conditions, whats the plan..........if the RSPCA doesnt remove them what next?.....hound the man or tell the 40,000 facbook fans to back off?


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## GlitterPup (20 February 2014)

Poor horses


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## honetpot (20 February 2014)

My horses was PTS in the snow last January, because of the snow the fallen stock man couldn't take him a way. Although he was only there two days until the snow thawed enough to get the truck down the lane, a farmer had to move him with a loader, the stench was awful and lasted for a week or more, everything that touched him was binned or washed.  Its been really mild this winter so I am surprised that the EHO did not get complaints about the smell.
 I find it bizarre that there are rules about the disposal of meat carcasses down to what you do with the hair, and rules about where and how long you can site a muck heap but if its a rotting equine non seem to apply. I think it was last year that there was one dead in the river in Northamptonshire  and no one would take responsibility for its removal. 
   You may think this is a fuss about nothing, yes there are ponies in worse conditions, the South Wales hill ponies were starved, shot and dropping dead last year , but a company making money from the rent however small a man who's animals appear poorly kept near well populated area, if no one was concerned what does it say about all of us? The owner seems to be thumbing his nose at everyone, what message does this send if no one cares? I do not think we want a society where keeping animals in poor conditions is considered normal and acceptable.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (20 February 2014)

I don't want to live in a society either, where it appears acceptable to some to leave carcasses amongst livestock with complete disregard for public health, environmental health and the welfare of the herd. The owner clearly couldn't give a stuff.


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## YorksG (20 February 2014)

There are sheep on the northern moors, where carcasses are not found. I have yet to see a petition  to government, demanding that if ONE charity decides on the strength of that, to remove the herd, that it should have the right!


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## Patterdale (20 February 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			I don't want to live in a society either, where it appears acceptable to some to leave carcasses amongst livestock with complete disregard for public health, environmental health and the welfare of the herd. The owner clearly couldn't give a stuff.
		
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Where has anyone said that its acceptable?


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## ChesnutsRoasting (20 February 2014)

Patterdale said:



			Where has anyone said that its 

Perhaps it is my interpretation of several posts - the attitude that it's a common occurrence or the norm amongst livestock owners. If it is then its very disappointing and instead of apathy the public should complain to the appropriate authority. I can't stand apathy - if my neighbouring cattle/sheep/horse etc farmer was in the habit of leaving rotting carcasses in his fields for days I'd be having words. I'd be like a Patterdale on a rat.
		
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## ChesnutsRoasting (20 February 2014)

YorksG said:



			There are sheep on the northern moors, where carcasses are not found. I have yet to see a petition  to government, demanding that if ONE charity decides on the strength of that, to remove the herd, that it should have the right!
		
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If that reply is to me? I made no mention of charities.


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## competitiondiva (20 February 2014)

1life said:



			The law is an ass at times, but a charity HAS TO work within it.
		
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This part I agree with, it's highly likely that they've known about them, but whilst the management of them may have previously been poor, there was insufficient evidence of not meeting their needs.  A photo of a dead carcase is always heart rendering, but as the vet has said it was too decomposed to establish cause of death, we nor the RSPCA or the vet know whether it suffered or not.  Then the collapsed horse which a vet attended at the request of the RSPCA and paid for by them, the vet deemed this horse to require euthanasia, but again could not state that the animal had been caused un-necessary suffering. The remaining horses are checked by the vet and none are deemed to be in a suffering state.  The photo's themselves show them looking in good body health, with access to dry land and a large hay bale which they are eating at... Without veterinary support of suffering there is no evidence of an offence. Whether you or the RSPCA agree/disagree is irrelevant, the law is the law and there it lies..... I can't see how or what the RSPCA could have done differently without taking the law into their own hands.  Which in itself would have been counter productive as the court would hold them accountable for theft and order the return of the animals to the owner...

The petition is a good idea in principle.  But without financial support what is the point of giving a charity the power to remove animals..... This is the very reason most trading standards offices (who are empowered under the act) do not get involved because of the financial burden.  The law is already there.  The officers already there to enforce it. The budget isn't..... the best option is to email MP's to get them to put pressure on local councils to act, not leave it to charities.......


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## Amymay (20 February 2014)

A number of horses of horses have now been removed under veterinary advice, in liason with the RSPCA.


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## LaMooch (20 February 2014)

amymay said:



			A number of horses of horses have now been removed under veterinary advice, in liason with the RSPCA.
		
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Yep This has been stated on the facebook page and they are under veterinary care too


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## Amymay (20 February 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-26280552?SThisFB


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## Patterdale (21 February 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			. I can't stand apathy - if my neighbouring cattle/sheep/horse etc farmer was in the habit of leaving rotting carcasses in his fields for days I'd be having words. I'd be like a Patterdale on a rat.
		
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I am - but luckily none of our neighbours do!
I know it is a common occurrence in some areas though. Doesn't make it right!
We are by the sea, and something's dead sheep wash up in the bay where someone's just cut the ears (and tags) off and just hoyed them off the cliff to avoid paying :mad3:
The council are quite good at coming then though.


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## magpie92 (21 February 2014)

this makes me so angry, these poor animals are suffering, if it had been a cattle herd or sheep flock they would have been removed long ago as they do not have a dry clean area to lye down(in Scotland not sure if the rules are the same in England), but because they are horses and ponies its ok? total b******s if you ask me, they should be removed and stabled/in a field that is is suitable for them not the quagmire that they are in now, the fact that there have been deaths in the field and bodies haven't been removed should be enough to get them out of that hell hole


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## MurphysMinder (21 February 2014)

If you read amymays link it says the RSPCA have now changed their minds and several of the animals have been removed.


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## Amymay (21 February 2014)

MurphysMinder said:



			If you read amymays link it says the RSPCA have now changed their minds and several of the animals have been removed.
		
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As will the rest we hope soon. The Rspca have now declared the land unfit for the horses.


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## Moomin1 (21 February 2014)

MurphysMinder said:



			If you read amymays link it says the RSPCA have now changed their minds and several of the animals have been removed.
		
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No, they haven't changed their minds at all. Certain criteria most likely has not been met within the time scale advised therefore the vet has said to now remove.


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## MurphysMinder (21 February 2014)

I was going on the wording of the BBC report which says "an animal charity has changed its mind".


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## Moomin1 (21 February 2014)

MurphysMinder said:



			I was going on the wording of the BBC report which says "an animal charity has changed its mind".
		
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Media yet again.
If you carry on reading you will see where it says issues were raised as a result of a vet visit - that means that notices were given to make improvements by a certain date, and if they weren't made, the vet will support removal of the animals, which is what happened


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## Adopter (21 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			No, they haven't changed their minds at all. Certain criteria most likely has not been met within the time scale advised therefore the vet has said to now remove.
		
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It is just so wrong that the process of improvement notices etct takes so long, whilst people watch and do not understand that the charities have no choice to follow the law.  It is good if there is a resolution this time,but there are still hundreds in other places not in the public eye for whom we need a change in the law.


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## Moomin1 (21 February 2014)

Adopter said:



			It is just so wrong that the process of improvement notices etct takes so long, whilst people watch and do not understand that the charities have no choice to follow the law.  It is good if there is a resolution this time,but there are still hundreds in other places not in the public eye for whom we need a change in the law.
		
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I agree adopter in essence, but you also have to be seen to be giving an owner a reasonable amount of time to make improvements. These notices are given where animals are not suffering, but are likely to suffer if circumstances do not change so there are no animals suffering whilst the time give passes.


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## MurphysMinder (21 February 2014)

I do realise that the media can get things wrong.  However it says issues were raised as a result of a vets visit on the Wednesday and animals were removed on Thursday,  which doesn't read to me that much time was given to improve the situation.

According to the report the RSPCA initially said the horses had enough food and dry land, and then following the vets visit the conditions were said to be unacceptable. It seems to me the RSPCA should seek expert knowledge asap in these situations as clearly, and understandabl,y their officers don't always have enough knowledge about every type of animl.


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## Moomin1 (21 February 2014)

MurphysMinder said:



			I do realise that the media can get things wrong.  However it says issues were raised as a result of a vets visit on the Wednesday and animals were removed on Thursday,  which doesn't read to me that much time was given to improve the situation.

According to the report the RSPCA initially said the horses had enough food and dry land, and then following the vets visit the conditions were said to be unacceptable. It seems to me the RSPCA should seek expert knowledge asap in these situations as clearly, and understandabl,y their officers don't always have enough knowledge about every type of animl.
		
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How do you know WHAT conditions the vet has said are unacceptable? The notices given may be about something health wise with individual horses? Have some horses been removed and not others?


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## Amaranta (21 February 2014)

Wrong, initially they set criteria for improvement - then in the face of public pressure and an independant vet, they changed their mind.

Keep up Moomin


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## Moomin1 (21 February 2014)

Amaranta said:



			Wrong, initially they set criteria for improvement - then in the face of public pressure and an independant vet, they changed their mind.

Keep up Moomin
		
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Haha!!!!

You do realise that it was the RSPCA who called the vet out themselves? And that the vet is the one who sets out the criteria for improvement?!


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## MillyMoomie (21 February 2014)

Regardless of everything going on in this particular thread it would be interesting to know if everyone who has commented and signed the petition for changes in the law (which in actual fact is what WHW does and has done since it's formation) has also signed the WHW defra petition regarding british horses being transported live to Europe??????? Very sadly I think prob not. 
Social media is responsible for so much hysterics and misguided shouting. I believe that there are truly experienced and knowledgable horse people on here but some of posts I read are just plain stupid, especially when it comes to anything welfare or RSPCA. 
Everyone has acknowledged that these horses are in less than ideal circumstances, but please, they are living a 5 star lifestyle compared to the majority of of equines in this country. Apart from a photo of a carcass (hugely emotive pic to put on social media) and a horse in water I have not seen a single photo of an equine in a removable body condition. Has anyone? 
The flooding- it's rained for 4 months. Yet in the photos there is obvious dry places. The public are inundating the charities with complaints about horses standing in flooded fields because it's ALL over the news and media- yet there are starving ponies in non flooded fields that no one calls about. These are the equines that day after day after day the WHW and RSPCA and other charities go in (using some of the best animal welfare legislation in the world) and try and help, they receive little thanks from the public and when they try to raise awareness by using SOME of these jobs in the media generally get bashed for 'not doing more' or ' left it too late'.
Everybody needs to get real and realise that this is happening to a far greater extreme all over the country and stop complaining about what the charities ARENT doing and help.
Sign every WHW petition, like the FB page. Adopt a horse to make space for others.( if there is no space, there is no space it's very simple).Donate or just respect that everyone is doing the best they can in a very difficult situation. It's called THE HORSE CRISES.


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## Amaranta (21 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Haha!!!!

You do realise that it was the RSPCA who called the vet out themselves? And that the vet is the one who sets out the criteria for improvement?!
		
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Moomim believe me I am VERY close to the facts in this case, UNLIKE yourself.

Now sweetie, remember that old adage?  If you have nothing nice to say - keep your mouth shut!


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## Moomin1 (21 February 2014)

Amaranta said:



			Moomim believe me I am VERY close to the facts in this case, UNLIKE yourself.

Now sweetie, remember that old adage?  If you have nothing nice to say - keep your mouth shut!
		
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I think you should take your own advice...


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## Amaranta (21 February 2014)

oh lol


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## Ladyinred (21 February 2014)

Brian, put your hamster away and go to your room until you can play nicely.


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## FionaM12 (21 February 2014)

Ladyinred said:



			Brian, put your hamster away and go to your room until you can play nicely.
		
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Brian? Hamster? Now I'm lost...... :confused3:


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## lannerch (21 February 2014)

MillyMoomie said:



			Regardless of everything going on in this particular thread it would be interesting to know if everyone who has commented and signed the petition for changes in the law (which in actual fact is what WHW does and has done since it's formation) has also signed the WHW defra petition regarding british horses being transported live to Europe??????? Very sadly I think prob not. 
Social media is responsible for so much hysterics and misguided shouting. I believe that there are truly experienced and knowledgable horse people on here but some of posts I read are just plain stupid, especially when it comes to anything welfare or RSPCA. 
Everyone has acknowledged that these horses are in less than ideal circumstances, but please, they are living a 5 star lifestyle compared to the majority of of equines in this country. Apart from a photo of a carcass (hugely emotive pic to put on social media) and a horse in water I have not seen a single photo of an equine in a removable body condition. Has anyone? 
The flooding- it's rained for 4 months. Yet in the photos there is obvious dry places. The public are inundating the charities with complaints about horses standing in flooded fields because it's ALL over the news and media- yet there are starving ponies in non flooded fields that no one calls about. These are the equines that day after day after day the WHW and RSPCA and other charities go in (using some of the best animal welfare legislation in the world) and try and help, they receive little thanks from the public and when they try to raise awareness by using SOME of these jobs in the media generally get bashed for 'not doing more' or ' left it too late'.
Everybody needs to get real and realise that this is happening to a far greater extreme all over the country and stop complaining about what the charities ARENT doing and help.
Sign every WHW petition, like the FB page. Adopt a horse to make space for others.( if there is no space, there is no space it's very simple).Donate or just respect that everyone is doing the best they can in a very difficult situation. It's called THE HORSE CRISES.
		
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Totally agree , very well said


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## Ibblebibble (21 February 2014)

There will always be animals somewhere that are worse off, the list of welfare issues to be concerned over are endless, sometimes overwhelmingly so. there are weeks when i have deliberately scrolled past pictures of starving horses, flood trapped horses, beaten horses etc etc because i can not cope with seeing them week in week out , knowing that I can do nothing except perhaps sign a petition.
 Sometimes a story or situation reaches out and grabs at people and galvanises them into action, the fosse park horses are one such story. some may see it as folk jumping on a bandwagon to make them feel good about themselves, some of us see it as grabbing an opportunity to make a difference and do what we can to get as many people as possible to do the same. singularly we are just one small voice, get 20,000+ people together and that becomes a very big voice that can't be ignored, the fosse park situation has proved that.
 social media can cause trouble and strife, no doubt about that, but it can also be used for good, and in this case it has had a good outcome, up until yesterday the welfare agency who had been asked by countless people, over a number of years to act had decided that the horses were not in unsuitable conditions. Then, because of a facebook page, more people became aware, the media got involved and now the welfare agency have decided that perhaps the conditions are unsuitable and some of the horses need to be moved, yes some of the horses there are relatively healthy, younger weaker ones who are being pushed off the hay by stronger herd members are not so good.
In the grand scheme of welfare it's a small event, but for those horses and the people who have bothered to report them to any and every agency they could, it feels bloomin good !


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## emmalou512 (21 February 2014)

These horses have been suffering for years.  The RSPCA have been called numerous times in the past with reports of neglected horses on the fields but nothing was ever done.  After the little mare was pts the RSPCA were quoted as saying that the field was acceptable and that the horses had hay and water (a polluted watering hole with diesel drums).  How they could of possibly have said the horses were fine is anyone's guess, as there were a number of youngsters with bad scour, in particlar a little black youngster who judging from the state of him had been scouring for a long time.  Improvement orders were not given to owner until an independent vet had been to the scene with agreement of the RSPCA which was a result of pressure put on them from the public, social networking and the media.  Now all of a sudden the land is unacceptable.  Too right, have u seen the pictures?? That place is a death trap and an equine graveyard full of old bones.  These horses might not have looked the worst by their body condition, they're cobs so good doers, but underneath all that fluff they are far from good and tbh the big pregnant mares are going to look better due to the fact that they've been first in line to any hay on offer, whilst the younger weaker horses get nothing.  Sorry for rant but really gets on my nerves when people on here talk rubbish about stuff they have no clue about.  Let's wait for the official RSPCA statement and the vets reports


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## MillyMoomie (21 February 2014)

Ibblebibble is agree in a small part to some of that, but I use one example to show what saddens me. The fosse park horses FB page has more likes than WHW Hall Farm FB, significantly more. One of only four farms that do such good inspiring work with sick, ruined and damaged equines every day of every week. It is amazing that the farrier chose to highlight the situation of these particular equines but I return to my original point, if only every person who has SUCH an opinion about this case could feel and be actionable in the same way about every other at risk equine.


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## Ibblebibble (21 February 2014)

MillyMoomie said:



			Ibblebibble is agree in a small part to some of that, but I use one example to show what saddens me. The fosse park horses FB page has more likes than WHW Hall Farm FB, significantly more. One of only four farms that do such good inspiring work with sick, ruined and damaged equines every day of every week. It is amazing that the farrier chose to highlight the situation of these particular equines but I return to my original point, if only every person who has SUCH an opinion about this case could feel and be actionable in the same way about every other at risk equine.
		
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rome wasn't built in a day as the saying goes, perhaps seeing what can be achieved when people work together will motivate some of the followers of the page to speak up for more horses and indeed other animals in need of help. As i said  before, sometimes it is so overwhelming you don't know where to start , perhaps this will give people the pointers they need.


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## emmalou512 (21 February 2014)

MillyMoomie said:



			Ibblebibble is agree in a small part to some of that, but I use one example to show what saddens me. The fosse park horses FB page has more likes than WHW Hall Farm FB, significantly more. One of only four farms that do such good inspiring work with sick, ruined and damaged equines every day of every week. It is amazing that the farrier chose to highlight the situation of these particular equines but I return to my original point, if only every person who has SUCH an opinion about this case could feel and be actionable in the same way about every other at risk equine.
		
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And who says we don't??  What this country needs is reform and until we get that from those idiots in governments not a lot will change, but we can try our best to do what little each of us can do individually!!


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## ChesnutsRoasting (21 February 2014)

MillyMoomie said:



			Ibblebibble is agree in a small part to some of that, but I use one example to show what saddens me. The fosse park horses FB page has more likes than WHW Hall Farm FB, significantly more. One of only four farms that do such good inspiring work with sick, ruined and damaged equines every day of every week. It is amazing that the farrier chose to highlight the situation of these particular equines but I return to my original point, if only every person who has SUCH an opinion about this case could feel and be actionable in the same way about every other at risk equine.
		
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There are thousands of people who  make a stand against animal cruelty & neglect every day, but it's a disease that can only be cured by new laws. It's the animal welfare act that's inadequate, not the people who give a damn.


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## LaMooch (21 February 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			There are thousands of people who  make a stand against animal cruelty & neglect every day, but it's a disease that can only be cured by new laws. It's the animal welfare act that's inadequate, not the people who give a damn.
		
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Fully agree with this


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## Amaranta (21 February 2014)

Ibblebibble said:



			rome wasn't built in a day as the saying goes, perhaps seeing what can be achieved when people work together will motivate some of the followers of the page to speak up for more horses and indeed other animals in need of help. As i said  before, sometimes it is so overwhelming you don't know where to start , perhaps this will give people the pointers they need.
		
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Absolutely, the number of people who were completely unaware of the fact that there are meat herds in this country was astounding, these people now know that there are many many herds suffering the same conditions as the Fosse Park horses, this campaign could be a force for good for many many horses, not just those at Fosse.


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## MillyMoomie (21 February 2014)

Again you are all missing my point, which was, sign the defra petition as well as this one. Like every page, not just this one. Etc etc. I'm not trying to argue with you guysz


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## Ladyinred (21 February 2014)

MillyMoomie said:



			Again you are all missing my point, which was, sign the defra petition as well as this one. Like every page, not just this one. Etc etc. I'm not trying to argue with you guysz
		
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Which would have been a far more succinct and direct way of saying it


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## Summer pudding (21 February 2014)

Amaranta said:



			Absolutely, the number of people who were completely unaware of the fact that there are meat herds in this country was astounding, these people now know that there are many many herds suffering the same conditions as the Fosse Park horses, this campaign could be a force for good for many many horses, not just those at Fosse.
		
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Well said..we have to start somewhere...and carry on so is a FB page required to identify other 'Fosse' type situations perhaps?  The more publicity the better to help all those other horses and ponies. Assuming that none of the meat herd horses are passported surely their owners are breaking the law, so regardless of having to go through the slow process of proving the horses are neglected why can't early intervention take place on those grounds...and if there is nowhere to save the horses too, is being culled such a bad fate? Could this provide a wake up call for their owners, no horses, no money. I expect this to be an unpopular suggestion, but the rescue centres are FULL, re-home is not realistic, allowing the horses to continue in misery while everyone 'complies' with the law just prolongs suffering.
Sometimes being pts is an act of kindness.


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## Ladyinred (21 February 2014)

Summer pudding said:



			Well said..we have to start somewhere...and carry on so is a FB page required to identify other 'Fosse' type situations perhaps?  The more publicity the better to help all those other horses and ponies. Assuming that none of the meat herd horses are passported surely their owners are breaking the law, so regardless of having to go through the slow process of proving the horses are neglected why can't early intervention take place on those grounds...and if there is nowhere to save the horses too, is being culled such a bad fate? Could this provide a wake up call for their owners, no horses, no money. I expect this to be an unpopular suggestion, but the rescue centres are FULL, re-home is not realistic, allowing the horses to continue in misery while everyone 'complies' with the law just prolongs suffering.
Sometimes being pts is an act of kindness.
		
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Agree. Trouble with your passport theory, you are correct, but only if the horses are moved. You can keep a horse without a passport, but you shouldn't buy one, sell one, or move one. Something else that needs putting right methinks.

I would also rather see these horses pts humanely than live their lives in misery and hardship only to eventually come to the same end.


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## Summer pudding (21 February 2014)

Ladyinred said:



			Agree. Trouble with your passport theory, you are correct, but only if the horses are moved. You can keep a horse without a passport, but you shouldn't buy one, sell one, or move one. Something else that needs putting right methinks.

I would also rather see these horses pts humanely than live their lives in misery and hardship only to eventually come to the same end.
		
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How refreshing not to have my pts solution not rubbished...I am a total fluffy bunny about animals BUT I really think serious culling would be appropriate in many cases at the moment.  Of course this would not be popular with the public without major re-education, and contributions to animal charities would suffer.
Re: passports - good points, but equines can't receive vet attention, inc wormers without a passport can they? Proof that they have not been wormed ever, surely this lack of basic care infringes the Animal Rights Act? All very small points but sufficient and speedy way of nobbling the owners surely.


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## YorksG (21 February 2014)

Can I ask those people who support the idea of a charity being able to remove a persons horse, if the charity believes the horse is not being cared for correctly, what they would do if a charity took their horses on that premise?


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## LaMooch (21 February 2014)

Ladyinred said:



			Agree. Trouble with your passport theory, you are correct, but only if the horses are moved. You can keep a horse without a passport, but you shouldn't buy one, sell one, or move one. Something else that needs putting right methinks.

I would also rather see these horses pts humanely than live their lives in misery and hardship only to eventually come to the same end.
		
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Agree with this too.

Passports are not worth the paper they are written on.

Also sometimes horses that have gone through abuse and neglect sometimes never over come these issues and would be better PTS then suffer anymore


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## Amaranta (21 February 2014)

YorksG said:



			Can I ask those people who support the idea of a charity being able to remove a persons horse, if the charity believes the horse is not being cared for correctly, what they would do if a charity took their horses on that premise?
		
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The aim is not for charities to take random horses from people, BUT should a horse look thin, wormy and is obviously left without food and water for any length of time, that horse should be removed from the ownership of the person neglecting them, this should NOT affect those who do look after their horses.  Obviously we do not want horses removed on the strength of one complaint,  BUT the situation as it stands is just not good enough.


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## YorksG (21 February 2014)

Amaranta said:



			The aim is not for charities to take random horses from people, BUT should a horse look thin, wormy and is obviously left without food and water for any length of time, that horse should be removed from the ownership of the person neglecting them, this should NOT affect those who do look after their horses.  Obviously we do not want horses removed on the strength of one complaint,  BUT the situation as it stands is just not good enough.
		
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So if the charity involved happens to be one which disagrees with  horses being ridden, or their representative believes horses should be rugged in the rain, what happens then? There are adequate laws, but there is no will,or  finance from government to apply it. If there was a petition asking for that I would sign it. I will not    sign a petition reqquesting a law which allows  for removal of animals without due process and a requirement for testable evidence.


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## Summer pudding (21 February 2014)

Amaranta said:



			The aim is not for charities to take random horses from people, BUT should a horse look thin, wormy and is obviously left without food and water for any length of time, that horse should be removed from the ownership of the person neglecting them, this should NOT affect those who do look after their horses.  Obviously we do not want horses removed on the strength of one complaint,  BUT the situation as it stands is just not good enough.
		
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Hear, hear...properly cared for horses are never removed...scaremongering?


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## YorksG (21 February 2014)

Summer pudding said:



			Hear, hear...properly cared for horses are never removed...scaremongering?
		
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Properly cared for according to who? Currently not, as there are checks aand balances in place. British Law requires testable evidence, not the opion of one agency,which is what the petition is calling for! This petition is actually asking for a fundamentl change to our legal system. I ask again would you be happy for a child to be removed from home on only the say so of one agency, because if the rule of law is changed for one sector, it allows it to change for others.


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## Amaranta (22 February 2014)

YorksG said:



			So if the charity involved happens to be one which disagrees with  horses being ridden, or their representative believes horses should be rugged in the rain, what happens then? There are adequate laws, but there is no will,or  finance from government to apply it. If there was a petition asking for that I would sign it. I will not    sign a petition reqquesting a law which allows  for removal of animals without due process and a requirement for testable evidence.
		
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Oh for goodness sake!  Obviously we would not want laws that would allow any random charity to do this, it's not rocket science!  There would have to be signs of neglect and they are NOT difficult to spot.  There is too much leeway given to those who deliberately neglect and abuse their horses, what happened at Fosse Park has shown that decent people will not put up with this anymore!

Horses appear to be bottom of the welfare chain - this has to change and the actions of the people at Fosse Park yesterday went some way to set a precedent.


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## Moomin1 (22 February 2014)

Amaranta you clearly misunderstand the current legislation. The law we currently have in is very effective in both ensuring welfare of animals and protecting innocent people because it has measures in place which need to be followed in order for animals to be removed. These horses didn't need to he removed as a matter of emergency, they were not deemed as suffering by a vet, therefore time is given for improvements to be made and of they aren't THEN the horses get removed. We cannot reasonably change that, because it would ran nobody, whatever the circumstances they are in, would have a chance to rectify their wrong doings before prosecution ensues. That is not a fair law IMO.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (22 February 2014)

All laws are ineffective if the relevant authorities don't uphold them. That carcass had been left there for weeks if not months. It's a bloody disgrace. Previous posters have claimed that numerous complaints had been made regarding these horses and ****** all had been done to improve their predicament. I cannot believe the poor state of the paddocks and the horses has occurred in the last week or since the emotive photo of the carcass was published. I don't want to join the bandwagon of rubbishing the RSPCA but my experiences with them are not positive either.


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## Amaranta (22 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Amaranta you clearly misunderstand the current legislation. The law we currently have in is very effective in both ensuring welfare of animals and protecting innocent people because it has measures in place which need to be followed in order for animals to be removed. These horses didn't need to he removed as a matter of emergency, they were not deemed as suffering by a vet, therefore time is given for improvements to be made and of they aren't THEN the horses get removed. We cannot reasonably change that, because it would ran nobody, whatever the circumstances they are in, would have a chance to rectify their wrong doings before prosecution ensues. That is not a fair law IMO.
		
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I am very aware of the current legislation, I am also aware that it is NOT effective, especially so in the case of equids.

Again you are wrong in this case, other than attending the filly stuck in the water last Saturday, the RSPCA attended the other horses only after the video had appeared on social media, (this is after people had for many YEARS been complaining to them) on inspecting the horses, they initially said the owner had done nothing wrong and the field was adequate, their own vet deemed the horses to be fine, although they did ask for some improvements to be carried out, this all happened on Tuesday of this last week.  After a small demonstration by local people, an independent vet attended these horses on Thursday, he deemed the field completely unsuitable and that the very thin youngsters and the pregnant mares MUST be moved AS A MATTER OF URGENCY (still with the RSPCA monitoring of course), all the horses are now removed to more suitable grazing.  The RSPCA were completely wrong in their initial assessment and they have admitted as much, they made an almost tearful statement yesterday in front of the bigger demonstration.

I completely agree that people have to have a chance to improve, BUT this owner is another Jamie Grey, he has previous for exactly the same thing, now you tell me why he should be given yet another chance.  THIS IS WHAT HAS TO CHANGE, I am not for one minute suggesting that charities should not give a second chance to people who may not know any better but people like this owner do not deserve a second chance.

The law MUST be changed to give these horses, bred for meat, the same protection as cows, sheep and other agricultural animals, there are thousands of them all over the country living in the same sort of conditions and I for one am very glad that someone has decided to stand up and be counted.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (22 February 2014)

Amaranta said:



			I am very aware of the current legislation, I am also aware that it is NOT effective, especially so in the case of equids.

Again you are wrong in this case, other than attending the filly stuck in the water last Saturday, the RSPCA attended the other horses only after the video had appeared on social media, (this is after people had for many YEARS been complaining to them) on inspecting the horses, they initially said the owner had done nothing wrong and the field was adequate, their own vet deemed the horses to be fine, although they did ask for some improvements to be carried out, this all happened on Tuesday of this last week.  After a small demonstration by local people, an independent vet attended these horses on Thursday, he deemed the field completely unsuitable and that the very thin youngsters and the pregnant mares MUST be moved AS A MATTER OF URGENCY (still with the RSPCA monitoring of course), all the horses are now removed to more suitable grazing.  The RSPCA were completely wrong in their initial assessment and they have admitted as much, they made an almost tearful statement yesterday in front of the bigger demonstration.

I completely agree that people have to have a chance to improve, BUT this owner is another Jamie Grey, he has previous for exactly the same thing, now you tell me why he should be given yet another chance.  THIS IS WHAT HAS TO CHANGE, I am not for one minute suggesting that charities should not give a second chance to people who may not know any better but people like this owner do not deserve a second chance.

The law MUST be changed to give these horses, bred for meat, the same protection as cows, sheep and other agricultural animals, there are thousands of them all over the country living in the same sort of conditions and I for one am very glad that someone has decided to stand up and be counted.
		
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Well, ruddy, said.


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## YorksG (22 February 2014)

Amaranta said:



			I am very aware of the current legislation, I am also aware that it is NOT effective, especially so in the case of equids.

Again you are wrong in this case, other than attending the filly stuck in the water last Saturday, the RSPCA attended the other horses only after the video had appeared on social media, (this is after people had for many YEARS been complaining to them) on inspecting the horses, they initially said the owner had done nothing wrong and the field was adequate, their own vet deemed the horses to be fine, although they did ask for some improvements to be carried out, this all happened on Tuesday of this last week.  After a small demonstration by local people, an independent vet attended these horses on Thursday, he deemed the field completely unsuitable and that the very thin youngsters and the pregnant mares MUST be moved AS A MATTER OF URGENCY (still with the RSPCA monitoring of course), all the horses are now removed to more suitable grazing.  The RSPCA were completely wrong in their initial assessment and they have admitted as much, they made an almost tearful statement yesterday in front of the bigger demonstration.

I completely agree that people have to have a chance to improve, BUT this owner is another Jamie Grey, he has previous for exactly the same thing, now you tell me why he should be given yet another chance.  THIS IS WHAT HAS TO CHANGE, I am not for one minute suggesting that charities should not give a second chance to people who may not know any better but people like this owner do not deserve a second chance.

The law MUST be changed to give these horses, bred for meat, the same protection as cows, sheep and other agricultural animals, there are thousands of them all over the country living in the same sort of conditions and I for one am very glad that someone has decided to stand up and be counted.
		
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The law as it stands does offer the same protection to horses, the law does not require change, the political will to fund the appropriate publlic bodies to apply the law, is what is needed.


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## Moomin1 (22 February 2014)

YorksG said:



			The law as it stands does offer the same protection to horses, the law does not require change, the political will to fund the appropriate publlic bodies to apply the law, is what is needed.
		
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Agree. 
Amaranta claims to know the current legislation, yet harps on saying that horses bred for meat don't have the same protection under the 
law, clearly showing she has little knowledge at all.


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## Amaranta (22 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Agree. 
Amaranta claims to know the current legislation, yet harps on saying that horses bred for meat don't have the same protection under the 
law, clearly showing she has little knowledge at all.
		
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Horses bred for meat do not have AGRICULTURAL status, you know damn well that is what I mean, you really are a pompous ****


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## ozpoz (22 February 2014)

Moomin, if you are correct, then the recent mailshot sent out by WHW describing the departure of meat equines from our ports UNCHECKED,for health, distance, microchips is probably nonsense?


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## Amaranta (22 February 2014)

ozpoz said:



			Moomin, if you are correct, then the recent mailshot sent out by WHW describing the departure of meat equines from our ports UNCHECKED,for health, distance, microchips is probably nonsense?
		
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Quite and their call for meat horses to be given Ag status is a complete waste of time, according to the oracle that is Moomin


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## Patterdale (22 February 2014)

Amaranta said:



			Horses bred for meat do not have AGRICULTURAL status, you know damn well that is what I mean, you really are a pompous ****
		
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I would strongly oppose any move to class horses as livestock; it would be a disaster. 

Amaranta, I don't mean to offend, but your arguments may have more weight if you didn't resort to personal insults and name calling


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## Amaranta (22 February 2014)

Patterdale said:



			I would strongly oppose any move to class horses as livestock; it would be a disaster. 

Amaranta, I don't mean to offend, but your arguments may have more weight if you didn't resort to personal insults and name calling 

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I agree and it is not something I would normally resort to, but I find someone putting down the efforts of the people who did effect some change this week, however small, infuriating, especially so in such a condescending manner.

It is interesting you think it would be a disaster, why so?


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## Moomin1 (22 February 2014)

Amaranta said:



			I agree and it is not something I would normally resort to, but I find someone putting down the efforts of the people who did effect some change this week, however small, infuriating, especially so in such a condescending manner.

It is interesting you think it would be a disaster, why so?
		
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You haven't effected any change. You just like to think you have.


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## Patterdale (22 February 2014)

Amaranta said:



			It is interesting you think it would be a disaster, why so?
		
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I live on a farm - we keep sheep and cattle. So I am perhaps more aware than the average horse owner of the red tape and restrictions involved with keeping livestock. 

An important thing to remember first is that you could never give livestock status to some horses and not others. It would be impossible to police and wide open to abuse of the system; the non law abiding producers would simply claim that their horses were not destined for meat, then when they eventually DID sell them for meat they would just use an excuse such as not being able to afford them any more. 
To stop them doing this, you would have to have a blanket ban on all 'pet' owners from sending their horse to an abbatoir, which as I'm sure you can appreciate would have serious welfare implications for those with old or infirm horses who could not afford to have them PTS at home. 

So, you would either have to have ALL horses classed as livestock, or none. 

Anyway, my objections to horses being kept as livestock?
Firstly, every place that kept horses would need a holding number, along with the regulations, restrictions and red tape that this would bring. 

Movement restrictions would be a very big one. 
There would be copious paperwork to fill out and file every time your horse leaves the holding; be that for a hack, competition, or to move to a different home. Impossible to police, and a nightmare to implicate and live with (not to mention time consuming and costly).

In the event of another foot and mouth type epidemic, movement restrictions on livestock would presumably extend to horses if they were classed as livestock.

All horses would need some kind of external identification. Compulsory ear tags, anyone?? Or at the very least, compulsory freeze marking? Which would need to be changed anytime a horse changes hands. 

The hoops we have to jump through as livestock producers are unreal. I could go on and on. 
And the thought of doing it all for the horses too is awful!

Farmers willing to let land to DIYs would be almost non existent, as it would affect their SFP. All year turnout would become a thing of the past as churned fields are a big no no on the agricultural land of anyone claiming subsidies (ie most proper farmers).

This is another point to remember - if horses are livestock then all land used for equestrian purposes would now be agricultural land. This would have huge implications for rates, tax, planning laws, and a plethora of other things which I won't get into here. 

I could honestly go on and on. 

Just...no!!!!


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## Amaranta (22 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			You haven't effected any change. You just like to think you have.
		
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You really do take the biscuit, with attitudes like that it is no wonder that the welfare of equines is at an all time low in this country.


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## Amaranta (22 February 2014)

Patterdale said:



			I live on a farm - we keep sheep and cattle. So I am perhaps more aware than the average horse owner of the red tape and restrictions involved with keeping livestock. 

An important thing to remember first is that you could never give livestock status to some horses and not others. It would be impossible to police and wide open to abuse of the system; the non law abiding producers would simply claim that their horses were not destined for meat, then when they eventually DID sell them for meat they would just use an excuse such as not being able to afford them any more. 
To stop them doing this, you would have to have a blanket ban on all 'pet' owners from sending their horse to an abbatoir, which as I'm sure you can appreciate would have serious welfare implications for those with old or infirm horses who could not afford to have them PTS at home. 

So, you would either have to have ALL horses classed as livestock, or none. 

Anyway, my objections to horses being kept as livestock?
Firstly, every place that kept horses would need a holding number, along with the regulations, restrictions and red tape that this would bring. 

Movement restrictions would be a very big one. 
There would be copious paperwork to fill out and file every time your horse leaves the holding; be that for a hack, competition, or to move to a different home. Impossible to police, and a nightmare to implicate and live with (not to mention time consuming and costly).

In the event of another foot and mouth type epidemic, movement restrictions on livestock would presumably extend to horses if they were classed as livestock.

All horses would need some kind of external identification. Compulsory ear tags, anyone?? Or at the very least, compulsory freeze marking? Which would need to be changed anytime a horse changes hands. 

The hoops we have to jump through as livestock producers are unreal. I could go on and on. 
And the thought of doing it all for the horses too is awful!

Farmers willing to let land to DIYs would be almost non existent, as it would affect their SFP. All year turnout would become a thing of the past as churned fields are a big no no on the agricultural land of anyone claiming subsidies (ie most proper farmers).

This is another point to remember - if horses are livestock then all land used for equestrian purposes would now be agricultural land. This would have huge implications for rates, tax, planning laws, and a plethora of other things which I won't get into here. 

I could honestly go on and on. 

Just...no!!!!
		
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Thank you, it is always interesting to see the other side of the coin.


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## Moomin1 (22 February 2014)

Amaranta said:



			You really do take the biscuit, with attitudes like that it is no wonder that the welfare of equines is at an all time low in this country.
		
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What, because I disagree with you? And because I happen to know that the 'petition' actually did nothing to influence the way these horses were dealt with, but of course media and joe public on a crusade believe it did?


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## Ibblebibble (22 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			You haven't effected any change. You just like to think you have.
		
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oh Brian, you're really letting yourself down, you know how mother feels about you resorting to snide remarks to point score, it's not big and it's not clever .
I'm sure the in-foal mares and youngsters are feeling the change in their surroundings and care today, thats change enough for some 

the petition is a long term thing, of course it hasn't had any effect yet, the huge public outcry over the state of the horses is what secured some of them a better environment.


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## Amaranta (22 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			What, because I disagree with you? And because I happen to know that the 'petition' actually did nothing to influence the way these horses were dealt with, but of course media and joe public on a crusade believe it did?
		
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Oh dear, of course the petition did not affect these horses - as I said do keep up. You obviously like to comment despite having no idea what the actual subject is.


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## Patterdale (22 February 2014)

Ibblebibble said:



			oh Brian, you're really letting yourself down, you know how mother feels about you resorting to snide remarks to point score, it's not big and it's not clever.
		
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:eek3:
Well, people in glass houses....!

Is there really any need for this? Moomin may not agree that a Facebook group singlehandedly 'saved' these horses, but is that any reason for the frequent and really quite nasty personal comments?


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## MillyMoomie (22 February 2014)

I suggest you all have a gander at the CURRENT transport legislation, welfare leg and in fact every legislation and stop arguing!! there are separate sections relating to equines in uk transport regs, the animal welfare act is very effective, there are SEPARATE Defra codes of practice relating to Equines (which are massively comprehensive to include everything from stable size to tethering)which should be adhered to and are used daily in court as evidence of neglect. 
LUCKILY in the UK equines are not given argricultrial status, if they did this would be a disaster as therefore the current ILLEGAL activity of shipping horses live from our shores for slaughter would never have become so. The fact that this law is abused is to do with lack of enforcement by Defra and dealers taking advantage of the allowance of live transportation of sport horses throughout UK, Ireland and France. 
Now whichever poster is shouting about horses being given this agricultural status is absurd. It would mean no animal welfare act, and is what WHW is currently campaigning to change in Europe. Horses transported for meat in Europe are categorised in the same way as cattle etc and this is a welfare disaster.


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## Patterdale (22 February 2014)

MillyMoomie said:



			LUCKILY in the UK equines are not given argricultrial status, if they did this would be a disaster as therefore the current ILLEGAL activity of shipping horses live from our shores for slaughter would never have become so. The fact that this law is abused is to do with lack of enforcement by Defra and dealers taking advantage of the allowance of live transportation of sport horses throughout UK, Ireland and France. 
Now whichever poster is shouting about horses being given this agricultural status is absurd. It would mean no animal welfare act, and is what WHW is currently campaigning to change in Europe. Horses transported for meat in Europe are categorised in the same way as cattle etc and this is a welfare disaster.
		
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Totally agree. 

Giving horses agricultural status would be one of the single biggest setbacks for equine welfare ever seen. 

We already have all the correct welfare laws. They just need to be correctly enforced.


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## Summer pudding (22 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			What, because I disagree with you? And because I happen to know that the 'petition' actually did nothing to influence the way these horses were dealt with, but of course media and joe public on a crusade believe it did?
		
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Please can you tell us all how you know that the petition did nothing, or the media or joe public for that matter...I am one of the saddos who think the Fb petition raised awareness on a national scale....and everything followed from there. But if `i am wrong please, please enlighten with chapter and verse from the 'inside'?


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## Ibblebibble (22 February 2014)

Patterdale said:



			:eek3:
Well, people in glass houses....!

Is there really any need for this? Moomin may not agree that a Facebook group singlehandedly 'saved' these horses, but is that any reason for the frequent and really quite nasty personal comments?
		
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moomin never denied they were a balding 50 yr old called Brian who still lived with their mother and lived life through the internet!  i have also never denied that i am a sarcastic bitch who will sometimes poke people for a reaction, i don't feel i have let myself down as i don't try and pretend i am something i am not  ( and my mother knows exactly what i'm like too)


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## skyrock (24 February 2014)

but the RSPCA continually ask for money so they can stop cruelty before it happens they call it their big animal rescue and its on telly all the time so they are just a set of liars and they really do not care


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## Moomin1 (24 February 2014)

skyrock said:



			but the RSPCA continually ask for money so they can stop cruelty before it happens they call it their big animal rescue and its on telly all the time so they are just a set of liars and they really do not care
		
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Do you HONESTLY think that they can stop all cruelty before it happens?!!  Get real.


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## Summer pudding (24 February 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Do you HONESTLY think that they can stop all cruelty before it happens?!!  Get real.
		
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Hear, hear....they have to work within the EXISTING law...to respond AFTER cruelty is reported. The problem is compounded sadly because there is an excess of equines in need of their help, and nowhere to put them if they are impounded. Their field officers do hard, not particularly well paid work, and to say they don't care is an insult...and inaccurate.


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## Ladyinred (2 March 2014)

An update, and not a good one, from Mark the farrier who found the horse in the water:





Hi everyone it's Mark.
 Fosse park update from today 2nd of March. I was hoping by now at just over 2 weeks into this that I could report that all is rosie & moving well. To put it simply it's not! Today, we have even more horses on site, there is no food & they are still exposed to appalling fencing & all the rest of the issues which sparked this campaign. We have been quiet on the update front. Giving time to RSPCA chief inspector James Lucas to oversee & get the changes implemented which he requested. Also to allow him & his staff to "monitor" the situation. I can confirm they are failing in their duty of care. How can I trust the care of these animals to a body which pay lip service to their duty? How can I trust that the foals which have already been moved to an unknown location are safe & being cared for? When the Fosse park situation is allowed to deteriorate. If anyone is in any doubt about coming with us to London to shout about this please think carefully. I am going to post an album of pictures taken today on site so no one is in any doubt. This is a matter way bigger than the RSPCA. Who demonstrate time & again they do not have the ability to cope with equine welfare & thus are not fit for purpose. Please on the back of this statement may I beg everyone makes sure they have signed the petition & go further!!! Send messages to your local MP's, tell them your stories, tell them we won't stand for this any longer! & tell them why WE ARE COMING TO LONDON !!! Thank you from me, the team & Hope


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## LaMooch (2 March 2014)

So  situation that has ended up the way it did is being monitored again. Bloody RSPCA wake up and smell the coffee


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## Ladyinred (2 March 2014)

Over 40 horses on the site now! Goodness knows how or when they were put there. Its all madness, the amount of wire and rubbish is terrifying and no one can do a thing, not legally.


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## LaMooch (2 March 2014)

Ladyinred said:



			Over 40 horses on the site now! Goodness knows how or when they were put there. Its all madness, the amount of wire and rubbish is terrifying and no one can do a thing, not legally.
		
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I thought the RSPCA was talking with owner about moving the horses? Someone obviously mis-herd the moving bit. Unless he been paid for his side of the story and used money to buy more


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## Ladyinred (2 March 2014)

LaMooch said:



			I thought the RSPCA was talking with owner about moving the horses? Someone obviously mis-herd the moving bit. Unless he been paid for his side of the story and used money to buy more
		
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No, you are right, some were moved (amongst them all the foals) but a lot more have appeared.


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## LaMooch (2 March 2014)

Ladyinred said:



			No, you are right, some were moved (amongst them all the foals) but a lot more have appeared.
		
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bet he brought more and put them there to cause a stir


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## wipeout (3 March 2014)

Just my opinion but I think it's desperately sad that we live in a country where even the government website points people in the direction of a charity if they need info or action relating to animal welfare. Remember the government give the RSPCA no funding.
Surely this would be like relying on the NSPCC (for example) to deal with all child cruelty.
When laws have been broken I really don't understand why the police can't just deal with it. 
Even worse people seem to spend more time bad mouthing a charity than the dreadful owner who has left them horses like this in the first place. 
I expect people will say that the RSPCA "claim" to be the experts but we wouldn't leave it to Oxfam to stop the world from starving would we.
There has to be some way of dealing with these people who keep large groups of animals in this kind of state but I don't believe it should be left to a charity.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (3 March 2014)

wipeout said:



			Just my opinion but I think it's desperately sad that we live in a country where even the government website points people in the direction of a charity if they need info or action relating to animal welfare. Remember the government give the RSPCA no funding.
Surely this would be like relying on the NSPCC (for example) to deal with all child cruelty.
When laws have been broken I really don't understand why the police can't just deal with it. 
Even worse people seem to spend more time bad mouthing a charity than the dreadful owner who has left them horses like this in the first place. 
I expect people will say that the RSPCA "claim" to be the experts but we wouldn't leave it to Oxfam to stop the world from starving would we.
There has to be some way of dealing with these people who keep large groups of animals in this kind of state but I don't believe it should be left to a charity.
		
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The RSPCA prefer to be independent http://www.rspca.org.uk/utilities/faq/-/question/FundFAQ3/category/Policy/. They don't have to take orders from anyone & can do what suits them, politically.


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## wipeout (3 March 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			The RSPCA prefer to be independent http://www.rspca.org.uk/utilities/faq/-/question/FundFAQ3/category/Policy/. They don't have to take orders from anyone & can do what suits them, politically.
		
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I meant that the government really ought to provide a service themselves so that charities don't have to do all the clearing up. I agree that the RSPCA should remain independent, my understanding is that charity rules prevent government funding anyway.


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