# Calcium v magnesium as calmers



## Jinksie (9 May 2013)

After spending a lot of money on a calmer promoting calcium as opposed to magnesium, I now read that feeding this could be actually harmful and make my pony worse.  Now I don't know whether to continue feeding it or throw it away!  My pony is 22 going on 4!  Thank you.


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## Mrs_Wishkabibble (9 May 2013)

Where have you read that it is harmful?


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## weebarney (9 May 2013)

Have a read of this, its long but hopefully the bits you need to know make sense, I think the calmer will only work if the land/horse is deficient in that mineral, anyway here it is http://www.gotcha.com.au/articles/aspects_of_pasture.php


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## Afrikaner (9 May 2013)

Jinksie said:



			After spending a lot of money on a calmer promoting calcium as opposed to magnesium, I now read that feeding this could be actually harmful and make my pony worse.  Now I don't know whether to continue feeding it or throw it away!  My pony is 22 going on 4!  Thank you.
		
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Have a read of this - v.interesting and seems to be based on a lot of research and comes from a well known scientist. 

http://sciencesupplements.co.uk/horse_calming


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## CMMB (10 May 2013)

Horses do not suffer from a calcium deficiency as forage is high in calcium, there would be no physiological reason why calcium would act as a "calmer".
The website above was correct in that there is no evidence for any of these in-feed calmers - unfortunate it then went on to become a sales pitch for a "calming" product that they supply!


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## Stripy (10 May 2013)

I've been looking into this whole feed supplements just lately, and it seems that we can easily upset the balance of nutrients that our horse needs by feeding too much of one and not enough of another.

The best advice I've found so far is to have a really good look at what you are already feeding, hay, concentrates, everything and get someone (nutritionist really) to look at it all with you and come up with a plan.

And I've been warned not to rely on supplements, but to look at what my pony's life is like elsewhere too.

Hope this helps xx


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## YasandCrystal (10 May 2013)

There was an interesting article I think in May  Equi Ads condemning the incorrect facts being used by EuiFeast in their marketing. They stated that calcium acts as a calmer and the vet says this is inccorrect. Yes the arcticle is entitled 'Calcium: Beware False Claims' and was written by Jemma Noble It's on the 2 but last pages of the May edition. Very interesting.

http://www.equiads.net/


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## [59668] (10 May 2013)

This is a really common misunderstanding.

No one mineral will act as a calmer.  It's all about finding a balance.  If a horse has a deficiency in any mineral this could show as behaviour that is seen as needing a calmer.  If this imbalance is addressed then the effect of this is seen as "calming" whereas it is actually just good nutrition.

If a horse has no imbalance or shortage of minerals needed then any behavioural difficulties seen may not be a case of a horse needing calmer - it may just be the way he is!


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## Tammytoo (10 May 2013)

Very rarely do horses have a calcium deficiency and you would need a blood test to find this out.  Magnesium deficiency is more common and as horses simply excrete any excess it does no harm to feed it short term to see if it works.  At this time of year, when the grass is growing rapidly it can be low in magnesium, hence the exciteable spring grass behaviour.

I think people are "mixing and matching" too many supplements without realising how unbalanced they are making their feeds.  I feed good quality hay/ and Winnergy Balancer (costs about a £1 a day, other brands available!) and nothing else (apart from grass) for a 15.2 tb.  and she looks fantastic on it.

Sugar is the biggest culprit for exciteability, so check the ingredients on the feed sack carefully and cut down on the apples and carrots!


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## Burnttoast (10 May 2013)

YasandCrystal said:



			There was an interesting article I think in May  Equi Ads condemning the incorrect facts being used by EuiFeast in their marketing. They stated that calcium acts as a calmer and the vet says this is inccorrect. Yes the arcticle is entitled 'Calcium: Beware False Claims' and was written by Jemma Noble It's on the 2 but last pages of the May edition. Very interesting.

http://www.equiads.net/

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By the same author: 
http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1yaly/EquineHealthSeptembe/resources/content/18.swf
Who works/ed for 
http://www.nupafeed.co.uk/
Who make a magnesium based calmer. Hmmm ... 




[59668] said:



			This is a really common misunderstanding.

No one mineral will act as a calmer.  It's all about finding a balance.  If a horse has a deficiency in any mineral this could show as behaviour that is seen as needing a calmer.  If this imbalance is addressed then the effect of this is seen as "calming" whereas it is actually just good nutrition.

If a horse has no imbalance or shortage of minerals needed then any behavioural difficulties seen may not be a case of a horse needing calmer - it may just be the way he is!
		
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^ This



Tammytoo said:



			Very rarely do horses have a calcium deficiency and you would need a blood test to find this out.  Magnesium deficiency is more common and as horses simply excrete any excess it does no harm to feed it short term to see if it works.  At this time of year, when the grass is growing rapidly it can be low in magnesium, hence the exciteable spring grass behaviour.

I think people are "mixing and matching" too many supplements without realising how unbalanced they are making their feeds.

Sugar is the biggest culprit for exciteability, so check the ingredients on the feed sack carefully and cut down on the apples and carrots!
		
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^ And this


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## marmalade76 (10 May 2013)

Tammytoo said:



			Very rarely do horses have a calcium deficiency and you would need a blood test to find this out.  Magnesium deficiency is more common and as horses simply excrete any excess it does no harm to feed it short term to see if it works.  At this time of year, when the grass is growing rapidly it can be low in magnesium, hence the exciteable spring grass behaviour.
		
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This is my understanding also. I feed mag but not for it's calming effects, people seem to forget that there are other reasons for supplementing with mag. Someone who works for Equifest has been on my local horsey FB group trying to convince people of the calming properties of calcium, sounded a bit misleading to me - surely it's false advertising??


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## Jinksie (10 May 2013)

Thank you all very much, all your comments were extremely helpful. It was the article in Equi-Ads that I had read and which raised my concerns.  My pony lives out 24/7 on low quality grazing and currently only has a couple of scoops of Good Doer in the morning and evening, which I can easily increase/decrease depending on weather, work load and amount of grazing available and he has enoug of energy for what we do and is in good condition generally. He does not have any hard feed at all.  I have decided to ditch the calmer, and instead try and ride a bit more often (hack/school three times a week currently) and work on his trust in and obedience to me rather than a chemical fix! Thanks again.


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## NellRosk (9 September 2013)

Wow, now that's what I call an informative reply Malcolm! Very interesting.


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## Fransurrey (9 September 2013)

Malcolm, please could we have Pubmed links to the peer-reviewed journals in which your research was published? Thanks.


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## Buddy'sMum (9 September 2013)

Fransurrey said:



			Malcolm, please could we have Pubmed links to the peer-reviewed journals in which your research was published? Thanks.
		
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I'd be very interested to see these too!


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## Buddy'sMum (9 September 2013)

Malcolm_Green said:



			Our argument has always been that organically complexed calcium (chelated calcium) is the &#8220;nutrient&#8221; that IMPROVES brain function. It doesn&#8217;t directly calm the horse at all but when the brain works better the horse evaluates its environment better and has no need to behave badly. SANE HORSES HAVE NO NEED TO BE SPOOKY. The argument that prey animals should run away from a flapping leaf is ludicrous. They should be good risk assessors.
		
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So you're saying that the fight or flight response is ludicrous? And the reason a horse spooks is not because of it's innate flight instinct kicking in but rather is a result of a deficiency of organically complexed calcium causing the brain to be working sub-optimally, thus affecting the horse's sanity, causing it to behave badly and affecting it's ability to assess risk? PLEASE, Malcolm, provide some references which support your theory.


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## Clava (9 September 2013)

Having a read a similar long winded debate (with the same poster) on another forum (here http://uknhcp.myfastforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=2868&start=0) I remain firmly dubious about the idea of calcium as a calmer.


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## marmalade76 (9 September 2013)

Me too, AFAIA (although my training is probably well out of date now) it's only horses fed high quanities of oats (and therefore little forrage) that need supplementing with calcium to keep their calcium/phosphorus ratios right. Mr Green seems to be going to considerable lengths to convince us that he is right.


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## Clava (9 September 2013)

Malcolm_Green said:



			Hi Clava,
You are right, calcium isn't a calmer. But it is crucial for nerve, muscle, bone, endocrine and all sorts of other functions.
If you are going to understand this you must be prepared to accept that chelated minerals behave differently inside the body than the artificial ones used by feed companies do. And that chemistry is very clear. What isn't clear is exactly how that affects the functioning of cells. We have our theories but there isn't the science to make them more than that.
But our trials tell us how our technology impacts on blood biochemistry and we do have a lot of delighted customers who back time and time again. And that is good enough for me.

The debate you followed before is very old. The group of barefoot enthusiasts all believed that what mattered was getting minerals balanced. Despite that belief and a lot of forage analysis they still owned lots of spooky horses.

Since then our research has kicked in. We know vastly more about both chelated calcium (note the debate then was focussed on calcium - just as this one has started - and I couldn't get it away from that) and magnesium. 

Funnily enough we recruited another follower of that previous thread just a few weeks ago.

Malcolm
		
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I don't think they said they owned spooky horses? (but I may have missed that )and I don't think the age of the thread is relevant unless the product has changed?


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## Erin (9 September 2013)

marmalade76 said:



			Mr Green seems to be going to considerable lengths to convince us that he is right.
		
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Of course he is. His 'product' is a calcium based calmer.  *cynic*


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## Buddy'sMum (9 September 2013)

Malcolm_Green said:



			The real difference is that we have spent two years researching and trialling and doing blood tests and analysing 4,000 horses (customer feedback and follow up). So, if you accept something that is "evidence based" we have a huge database and significant research to fall back on.
		
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Great, you've conducted lots of studies. Why haven't you published these data in peer-reviewed journals so that all of us owners of insane, spooky horses can make an informed decision about the efficacy and safety of your company's product? 



Malcolm_Green said:



			But does that mean that all prey animals should respond the same way?
		
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Um, yes it does. As confirmed by published data in many species.



Malcolm_Green said:



			On the Steppes of Asia there are no trees to hide in or behind. So fleeing when a leaf flaps would actually increase the risk of such a prey animal running into the jaws of a lion not decrease it.
		
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If there are no trees where would the leaf come from? If you're going to be silly then so am I!



Malcolm_Green said:



			And our horses seem to be able to spook at the most ridiculous things. That is why I say that this sort of prey animal should be good at assessing risk.[\QUOTE] 

The fight or flight response is an animal's automatic response to a threat. The bit of the brain that initiates the response (the amygdala) can't differentiate between a real and a perceived threat. So when a horse hears a rustling in the hedge behind him, he perceives a threat and his automatic flight response kicks in and he takes flight to put space between him and the threat (ie he spooks or bolts). Now, it doesn't matter that the noise was a leaf and not a lion - all the horse perceives is that he's under threat. The resulting flight is not bad or irrational behaviour or an inability to assess risk on the horse's part. 

Oh, and the antelope aren't running away because they're responding to the predatory threat by freezing. It's been well documented that animals sometimes freeze or play dead when faced with a predatory attack, perhaps because the brain is overwhelmed by the threat or perhaps it's an adaptive response - keeping still in order not to attract the predator's attention. Nothing to do with antelope being better at assessing risk than horses!!



Malcolm_Green said:



			The problem with the equine nutrition industry is...[\QUOTE] 
it is woefully under regulated and as a result of this there are many companies selling supplements and nutraceuticals without providing the slightest shred of evidence that they work and have no adverse effects.
		
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## Buddy'sMum (10 September 2013)

And it seems that Malcolm Green has left the building..!

Was it something we said, Malcolm?


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