# Poor horse



## Supertrooper (11 July 2022)

How this can be seen as acceptable I don’t know 😭




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=760987518648553


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## Nari (11 July 2022)

Something is very wrong there.


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## TheOldTrout (11 July 2022)

Sheesh, poor horse.


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## splashgirl45 (11 July 2022)

that would scream pain to me


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## fetlock (11 July 2022)

Just a 2 year old, and he's already ran 5 times this year, from April to June.

https://www.racingpost.com/profile/horse/4241641/blackbeard/form


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## Pearlsasinger (11 July 2022)

It just looks to me as if he doesn't want to go into the stalls. It would certainly pay to spend more time training him to go in without a fuss.


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## Cortez (11 July 2022)

Just a highly, highly overexcited young TB. I had a horse that would do this in his early competition career (not a TB, but a very weird, highly strung PRE). He grew out of it and settled down, no pain causing it, just nerves and not knowing what to do with himself. He once dug himself a 3 ft hole and laid down (with me on) before entering the arena at a dressage competition.


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## Elf On A Shelf (11 July 2022)

He is a 2yo colt playing silly beggars as all little twats do from time to time. He's fully fit and ready to run which makes them worse.

He comes from the biggest training empire in Ireland - Ballydoyle and Coolmore. He will have had plenty of stalls practice, he will have every kind of treatment you can ask for - veterinary, muscular and physio. I doubt he will have his balls on for much longer if he carries this malarkey on though as he isn't top class so will probably be gelded and sold my next spring.


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## SusieT (11 July 2022)

That's a highly stressed animal. The training team need to review how they build his confidence . Being part of a big enterprise means nothing in terms of individual care or attention to detail. That horse is not coping .


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## ester (11 July 2022)

I saw it a while back and was curious over the 'its usually fillies' comment and wondered why it was usually fillies.


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## bonny (11 July 2022)

SusieT said:



			That's a highly stressed animal. The training team need to review how they build his confidence . Being part of a big enterprise means nothing in terms of individual care or attention to detail. That horse is not coping .
		
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His record says otherwise.....racing is stressful for all horses, especially two year olds and I seriously doubt anyone on here knows more about training horses than Coolmore.


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## shortstuff99 (11 July 2022)

One of mine when she was unsure of something would do the full downward dog, bow pose. Ridden and in-hand. She was never pushed, backed at 4.5, just a weird habit she had. Prefer that to bucking etc.


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 July 2022)

ester said:



			I saw it a while back and was curious over the 'its usually fillies' comment and wondered why it was usually fillies.
		
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Young fillies in season usually make it well known either by broncing on the way to the start or bunny hopping if they put the rope behind them to load them, they are also less inclined to moveand refuse to load which you fully appreciate and understand!. Colts tend to either act the goat or nip when they are buzzed up at the races. I wouldn't say one gender is worse than the other they just do things differently.


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## stangs (12 July 2022)

“Bit of a playful horse”


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## ycbm (12 July 2022)

It's a sad video of a stressed and very young horse who should be being removed from the environment he's finding so stressful.  It's even sadder that so many people are so immersed in how horse sport has always been that they can't see how sad it is. 
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## Cortez (12 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			It's a sad video of a stressed and very young horse who should be being removed from the environment he's finding so stressful.  It's even sadder that so many people are so immersed in how horse sport has always been that they can't see how sad it is.
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And yet the horse I had who acted pretty much exactly like this (bar the biting), went on to perform very well immediately afterwards, and subsequently learned to cope with his excitement. If I had removed him he would not have progressed.


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## ycbm (12 July 2022)

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Cortez said:



			And yet the horse I had who acted pretty much exactly like this (bar the biting), went on to perform very well immediately afterwards, and subsequently learned to cope with his excitement. If I had removed him he would not have progressed.
		
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And if he was 2 he might just have needed to be allowed to be a baby.   Maybe you were lucky,  maybe your horse would have progressed slower but more happily, I don't know,  but I don't believe the right way to get them to learn to cope with their anxiety is to flood them like that.

I owned a 3 year year old ex racing filly who was thrown out of racing and then refused insurance applied for by me as a leisure horse because of her behaviour on the racecourse. She didn't learn from being pushed through it,  it nearly ruined her. 

I have to have a wry smile at you describing the behaviour you pushed on through as "excitement" Cortez. I'd accept revved up, anxious, overwrought but really,  what horse ever got excited, in the "looking forward to doing something" sense that's usually meant by it,  by being about to go into a ring and do a dressage test?

We've done stuff like this for so long that those who've been immersed in it can't see how wrong it is.  Instead of trying to understand the horse he's called offensive names.  If racing doesn't wake up to the fact that this is a bad way to treat horses and absolutely terrible  PR, it will go down the pan.  I understand racecourse attendances are well down this year and that will only continue.
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## bonny (12 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			.


And if he was 2 he might just have needed to be allowed to be a baby.   Maybe you were lucky,  maybe your horse would have progressed slower but more happily, I don't know,  but I don't believe the right way to get them to learn to cope with their anxiety is to flood them like that.

I owned a 3 year year old ex racing filly who was thrown out of racing and then refused insurance applied for by me as a leisure horse because of her behaviour on the racecourse. She didn't learn from being pushed through it,  it nearly ruined her.

I have to have a wry smile at you describing the behaviour you pushed on through as "excitement" Cortez. I'd accept revved up, anxious, overwrought but really,  what horse ever got excited, in the "looking forward to doing something" sense that's usually meant by it,  by being about to go into a ring and do a dressage test?

We've done stuff like this for so long that those who've been immersed in it can't see how wrong it is.  Instead of trying to understand the horse he's called offensive names.  If racing doesn't wake up to the fact that this is a bad way to treat horses and absolutely terrible  PR, it will go down the pan.  I understand racecourse attendances are well down this year and that will only continue.
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All sports are seeing lowered attendances, even Wimbledon had lots of empty seats, It’s post covid time and nothing to do with perceived cruelty.


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## rabatsa (12 July 2022)

I had a mare that would do this out hunting when we had to stand around.  She would be fine at the meet and the first stop or two then start messing like this colt.  She also did it at a trec competiton before heading out onto the course.  She only ever behaved this way when there were lots of other horses around her, never when alone.


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## ycbm (12 July 2022)

bonny said:



			nothing to do with perceived cruelty.
		
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Well I'd like to see you prove that assertion. We'll see if they recover if racing continues to provide this type of PR.
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## palo1 (12 July 2022)

rabatsa said:



			I had a mare that would do this out hunting when we had to stand around.  She would be fine at the meet and the first stop or two then start messing like this colt.  She also did it at a trec competiton before heading out onto the course.  She only ever behaved this way when there were lots of other horses around her, never when alone.
		
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Yes I have seen horses do this too and also ponies!  The horse in the video, when he is not doing that particular behaviour, looks quite relaxed.  Coolmore may or may not have their horse's happiness at the forefront of their operation but they undoubtedly know that a stressed or anxious horse will not perform to the best of it's natural ability and there is no interest for them in compromising horses in training.  It's not exactly a desperate tin-pot operation!    Animals do all manner of things; not all of which are due to negative interactions with people and the environments we put them in.  If this horse were mine I would say he is being very babyish (in that one particular manifestation) but then I wouldn't be working a very young horse.  My mare will dig holes when she is being asked to wait for something that she is anticipating; food, being saddled occasionally and at events when she seems to think I ought to get on with things a bit quicker!  She doesn't do exactly this but I have seen other horses do the same.  I couldn't be certain, without knowing more that this was 'sad' tbh.


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## TheMule (12 July 2022)

To me, this is a very stressed horse. Mine would tend towards this (nowhere near as extreme) but he paws with a front leg and then will drop his front as if in a stretch when he’s impatient.


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## palo1 (12 July 2022)

TheMule said:



			To me, this is a very stressed horse. Mine would tend towards this (nowhere near as extreme) but he paws with a front leg and then will drop his front as if in a stretch when he’s impatient.
		
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Yes I see impatience for sure and also 'nerves/stress' exhibited in biting and rearing which I would assume as a well handled horse at Coolmore, he would know is not mannerly.  However, he also walks around quite calmly, ears forward and what I might see as an interested and confident expression (from as much as I can see on the clip).  I would think he is experiencing several things including that he doesn't want to do what he is being asked at the same time as being quite engaged with the environment.


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## xTrooperx (12 July 2022)

I had a tb that did this not long out of racing, out at couple events, basically found it little stressful and did not like to stand about, quickly stopped once settled and learnt  that didn’t have to follow others & event did not = racing.


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			Well I'd like to see you prove that assertion. We'll see if they recover if racing continues to provide this type of PR.
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Have you seen the prices racecourses are charging to get in!?!?! £20-30 for a bog standard, mid-week meeting with few runners. £5.50+ a pint, £8-9 for fish & chips and you can't even take so much as a bottle of water in with you to make sure you buy everything inside the track! That's  what is putting people off of going racing! They simply can't afford it!


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## sakura (12 July 2022)

Cortez said:



			And yet the horse I had who acted pretty much exactly like this (bar the biting), went on to perform very well immediately afterwards, and subsequently learned to cope with his excitement. If I had removed him he would not have progressed.
		
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That doesn't mean the horse wasn't stressed in the first place. Stress and excitement look incredibly similar in horses and you often get the same result from them - i.e. via whatever means the trainer/rider uses, the horse will adapt and then perform the required behaviour.

I really do question why we're putting horses in these situations more and more these days. Doing something for a long time and getting results does not mean the trainer is in the right.


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## ycbm (12 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			The horse in the video, when he is not doing that particular behaviour, looks quite relaxed.
		
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He doesn't look relaxed to me and the fact he explodes again shows, to me,  that he isn't.
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## bonny (12 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			He doesn't look relaxed to me and the fact he explodes again shows, to me,  that he isn't.
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He’s not going to be relaxed waiting to go into the stalls and then run a race.


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## ycbm (12 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			Coolmore undoubtedly know that a stressed or anxious horse will not perform to the best of it's natural ability
		
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A horse flooded with adrenaline will run faster over a short distance, its a banned substance if not produced naturally.  The only incentive for them to train out this behaviour happening at the track is  removing him from the race.


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## ycbm (12 July 2022)

bonny said:



			He’s not going to be relaxed waiting to go into the stalls and then run a race.
		
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The others aren't all doing it.  The behaviour,  to me,  shows a very unhappy young horse.
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## skinnydipper (12 July 2022)

bonny said:



			.....racing is stressful for all horses, especially two year olds
		
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I'll just remind of something you said when you were criticising a video I posted. 



bonny said:



			...the things we do to our animals in the name of what ?
		
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## Elf On A Shelf (12 July 2022)

What do you make of this bunch of miscreants at Windsor yesterday? Clearly so stressed about life ...

https://fb.watch/edfnVa4HH1/


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## bonny (12 July 2022)

skinnydipper said:



			I'll just remind of something you said when you were criticising a video I posted. 

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Ever helpful !


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			A horse flooded with adrenaline will run faster over a short distance, its a banned substance if not produced naturally.  The only incentive for them to train out this behaviour happening at the track is  removing him from the race.
		
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Are you insinuating that they drug their horses?    The horse had never behaved like that at prior races, he will have had a racecourse gallop too at some point. He will more than likely grow out of it and the yard will also look into why he behaved the way he did. They leave no stone unturned.


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## sakura (12 July 2022)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			What do you make of this bunch of miscreants at Windsor yesterday? Clearly so stressed about life ...

https://fb.watch/edfnVa4HH1/

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Those horses are not displaying the same behaviour as the other video - the circumstances are entirely different. And again, just because a horse enjoys running doesn't make the treatment, training and outcome of a racing career right.


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## ycbm (12 July 2022)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Are you insinuating that they drug their horses?
		
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I don't understand why you are even asking the question,  of course I wasn't. That horse is probably,  imo, flooded with adrenaline and contrary to what the person I replied to was suggesting,  he is likely to do a short sprint faster because of that,  not perform worse. 
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## palo1 (12 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			He doesn't look relaxed to me and the fact he explodes again shows, to me,  that he isn't.
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In between the digging/bowing and rearing moments (which seems to happen as he is put under pressure to comply as it were) he has ears forward and is clearly relaxed about being handled/led.  He is or should be quite adrenalised through his breeding and race training - through entirely natural processes but most people know that the last thing trainers want is for horses to be upset or stressed (rather than anticipating galloping) prior to the start of the race.  They are different states for a horse to be in but I get that we might interpret things differently.


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## bonny (12 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			I don't understand why you are even asking the question,  of course I wasn't. That horse is probably,  imo, flooded with adrenaline and contrary to what the person I replied to was suggesting,  he is likely to do a short sprint faster because of that,  not perform worse.
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If you watched racing you would know that trainers, handlers etc go to great lengths to get their horses to the start as calmly as possible. Many a race has been lost by a horse getting too worked up beforehand and Coolmore are experts at managing their young horses to the extent it’s rare to see one of theirs misbehaving.


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 July 2022)

Indiangel said:



			Those horses are not displaying the same behaviour as the other video - the circumstances are entirely different. And again, just because a horse enjoys running doesn't make the treatment, training and outcome of a racing career right.
		
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I actually completely disagree with 2yo racing. I always have, always will. But racing isn't the worst career a horse can have. There are plenty of other life styles that horses have to endure that I do not agree with.

And that is why everyone is different. If we all agreed on everything then life would be incredibly boring indeed!


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			I don't understand why you are even asking the question,  of course I wasn't. That horse is probably,  imo, flooded with adrenaline and contrary to what the person I replied to was suggesting,  he is likely to do a short sprint faster because of that,  not perform worse.
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Why would it even cross anyones mind to write "its a banned substance if not produced naturally". I know there are lots of theories about drugs being bandied about in Ireland at the moment but their drugs testing policies will be as stringent as ours hence why trainers generally don't even tempt fate with drugs and their withdrawal times.


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## palo1 (12 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			I don't understand why you are even asking the question,  of course I wasn't. That horse is probably,  imo, flooded with adrenaline and contrary to what the person I replied to was suggesting,  he is likely to do a short sprint faster because of that,  not perform worse.
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To me that is a completely daft assertion @ycbm (though I am not going to continue to argue the toss with you).  If that were the case then what the heck is the point of any training; surely it would be better to just leave everything alone until you wanted to race, other than fittening work, then stress the heck out of them with loading, stalls, the atmosphere etc etc, put some brave idiot on top and raise the flag?!! I don't know much about racing but I think Coolmore probably do and on here @Elf On A Shelf can answer questions about it.


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## palo1 (12 July 2022)

This, from Burghley 2008 is interesting.  Are these horses trying to escape, are they stressed or just very fit, full of anticipation or suffering from pain perhaps?  They are rearing, bucking and needing some quite clear handling...


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## Quigleyandme (12 July 2022)

I don’t know enough about racing to comment but those eventing horses in all their natural glory are the most beautiful things on the planet IMO.


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## SusieT (12 July 2022)

Cortez said:



			And yet the horse I had who acted pretty much exactly like this (bar the biting), went on to perform very well immediately afterwards, and subsequently learned to cope with his excitement. If I had removed him he would not have progressed.
		
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Horses will perform well despite stress/pain and hiding serious illness e.g. ulcers. We have to have blood rules in olympic horse sport to prevent abuse from a minority. Being a sporting horse person does not a 'kind' person, good trainer or educated horse person always make.


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## SusieT (12 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			Yes I have seen horses do this too and also ponies!  The horse in the video, when he is not doing that particular behaviour, looks quite relaxed.  Coolmore may or may not have their horse's happiness at the forefront of their operation but they undoubtedly know that a stressed or anxious horse will not perform to the best of it's natural ability and there is no interest for them in compromising horses in training.  It's not exactly a desperate tin-pot operation!.
		
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That will be why racehorses all live turned out in large herds to allow them to express natural behaviour? 
Racehorses are traditionally one of the most intensively 'farmed' horses. The 'good ones' are the ones who can cope despite fairly non horse friendly management systems. 

In reply to someone else- being placed just means he can run fast once put in a herd situation, doesn't have much to do with how stressed he is..


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## SusieT (12 July 2022)

Burghley- a number are stressed and worried by the atmosphere.


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## SusieT (12 July 2022)

Out of interest- how would the defenders of this behaviour describe a horse undergoing stress? What behaviours might you expect to see?


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## TPO (12 July 2022)

Obviously I do not agree with the breaking and competing of horses for 2yr old completions. Or even racing 3 or 4yrs olds...or really racing at all.

But what gets me on hho is the "whatabouttery". Its a better life than X, they want for nothing best of food, rugs and attention apart from, you know, the want of a somewhat healthy management where they aren't broken as skeletally immature infants, aren't fed commercial feeds and restricted forage, have turn out and herd interactions to develop normal horse behaviours and so the list could go on and on

But ya know at least they're not a pyramid horse, or starved, or beaten...the "acceptable" abuse is fine. It generates £££ for the equine industry apparently 😏


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 July 2022)

Yup ... our horses are caged up in stables 23 hours a day ... never get to interact with others ... never get to be horses ...


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## Lady Tinseltime (12 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			This, from Burghley 2008 is interesting.  Are these horses trying to escape, are they stressed or just very fit, full of anticipation or suffering from pain perhaps?  They are rearing, bucking and needing some quite clear handling...





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Just being fit horses really


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## ycbm (12 July 2022)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Yup ... our horses are caged up in stables 23 hours a day ... never get to interact with others ... never get to be horses ...
		
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Do you have any figures on what proportion of racing stables have daily turnout? 
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## stangs (12 July 2022)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Yup ... our horses are caged up in stables 23 hours a day ... never get to interact with others ... never get to be horses ...
		
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The exception to prove the rule and all that. By your own admission, it’s not particularly common. 



Elf On A Shelf said:



			A lot of smaller yards do but not the ones in the big training centres such as Newmarket, Middleham, Lambourn, The Curragh etc. There are bits and pieces of land to turn horses out on but mostly when in training at the big places they don't get turned out sadly.
		
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(Sorry OP, conversation seems to veering off into the usual racing debate.)


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## sakura (13 July 2022)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Yup ... our horses are caged up in stables 23 hours a day ... never get to interact with others ... never get to be horses ...
		
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Are you insinuating that most race horses (or indeed sport horses) are kept as you describe?


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## TPO (13 July 2022)

Indiangel said:



			Are you insinuating that most race horses (or indeed sport horses) are kept as you describe?
		
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Never mind the numbers of "wastage" coming out of the industry. 

Lost count of the number advertised coming out of a yard having done tendons, amongst other things, needing homes to rest them and turn away to see if they'd come good. Break and replace 😏


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## Elf On A Shelf (13 July 2022)

stangs said:



			The exception to prove the rule and all that. By your own admission, it’s not particularly common. 



(Sorry OP, conversation seems to veering off into the usual racing debate.)
		
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It's more common in National Hunt yards as there are very few colts/horses kicking about. 99% of the National Hunt World is mares and geldings so its easier to turn them out. Some yards keep them turned out in groups for a few hours a day when I full work, others like us split them into individual paddocks next to each other to minimise the risk of someone getting kicked and injured. Summer holidays they all get their shoes off and turfed out 24/7 in groups of up to 15 of the same gender. Hobbs turns 40-odd out together for their holidays - it's quite a sight on release day! They all walk into the field in a long line and as one all head collars are taken off and the horses are gone! Up and over the hill to explore the 40-50 acres they have to roam.

Flat yards with colts don't tend to turn them out together for obvious reasons.


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## Elf On A Shelf (13 July 2022)

TPO said:



			Never mind the numbers of "wastage" coming out of the industry. 

Lost count of the number advertised coming out of a yard having done tendons, amongst other things, needing homes to rest them and turn away to see if they'd come good. Break and replace 😏
		
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Same could be said of any industry though. How many dressage or jumping horses don't make it past futurities because they have done too much too young and are palmed off onto someone else to have a low level career.


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## TPO (13 July 2022)

That's just more whatabouttery.

The numbers in racing are higher than other industries so even if the % of "wastage" was the same in each it's still more horses coming out of racing yards than any other type of yard.


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## palo1 (13 July 2022)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			It's more common in National Hunt yards as there are very few colts/horses kicking about. 99% of the National Hunt World is mares and geldings so its easier to turn them out. Some yards keep them turned out in groups for a few hours a day when I full work, others like us split them into individual paddocks next to each other to minimise the risk of someone getting kicked and injured. Summer holidays they all get their shoes off and turfed out 24/7 in groups of up to 15 of the same gender. Hobbs turns 40-odd out together for their holidays - it's quite a sight on release day! They all walk into the field in a long line and as one all head collars are taken off and the horses are gone! Up and over the hill to explore the 40-50 acres they have to roam.

Flat yards with colts don't tend to turn them out together for obvious reasons.
		
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Venetia Williams yard turns out during the summer and the horses have an amazing environment there. Not sure if you will be able to see this: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1054097505461572 or this https://www.facebook.com/venetiawilliamsracing.  If not, you can follow Venetia on fb.   She often posts pictures of the herd in the lake too.  

The issue of whataboutery is tricky for me as whilst I understand the issues, in fact I do think it is helpful to have context for considering welfare issues.  It's not about excusing poor practice, bad handling or abuse at all but for me some of the whataboutery is about identifying priorities.  I have always thought that and I read others annoyance of that but still, for me, speaking up about worse abuse, prioritising animal welfare from the bottom up seems relevant and important.  People can get really exercised about specific issues that trouble them but opening issues up with the 'whataboutery' can be useful as it presents context and a wider discussion.

If you highlight the issues and raise the bar at the bottom; through legislation etc things will get better for everyone.  Racehorses are far from being the only horses to experience long periods of stabling for example, or to be worked at a very young age, or fed inappropriately, neglected, whipped etc etc. Racing is highly regulated too where the vast majority of horse keeping in the UK isn't. 

We are all different.  Perhaps the horse in the video posted is stressed; he is certainly expressing a strong response but the context of that is that whilst that horse is, imo, far too young to be working (and I think 2yo racing should NOT happen) he is in the care of experts, is highly valued and therefore unlikely to be neglected physically or mentally (though I understand the issues of racehorse husbandry too) and there will be a team of people caring for that horse.    I get that we need to change things in racing BUT that, for me isn't the same priority as other things that happen elsewhere.

There are changes in our culture of keeping racehorses; the concerns that are expressed here are generalised through the horse world, though in variations of course.  I think it is naive to think that everyone in racing for example, isn't aware of changing ideas and priorities about animal welfare and it is quite odd to think that they haven't considered how to do things better themselves.  It is kind of easy to point to a big thing like racing though and it is in the public eye so I do get the attention to racing related issues/incidences.  Truly, the breeding and production of sport horses, the levels of wastage and stress need attention too.


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## palo1 (13 July 2022)

SusieT said:



			Burghley- a number are stressed and worried by the atmosphere.
		
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Do you think so?  These are horses that will have had a huge amount of experience of this kind of atmosphere on their journey to competing at that level.  All of them will be familiar with the setting and routine of the trot up and most of the horses shown will probably have competed at an even bigger event previously.   All of those horses are being presented for the trot up by people they have a successful relationship of trust and partnership with.  They are all supremely fit, healthy and highly trained, albeit sensitive and highly intelligent characters; their 'job' as top class eventers necessitates that really.  I think it is really reductive to see that some natural actions (rearing, spooking, bucking etc) are always stress related.  I see our horses in the field doing exactly the same when they are playing for example.  I believe there is much more to a horse's behaviour than the 'natural' and the 'stress due to human interaction' tropes.


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## humblepie (13 July 2022)

No 11 in the Windsor clip is so sweet.  Not that that has anything to do with the topic though.


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## paisley (13 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			This, from Burghley 2008 is interesting.  Are these horses trying to escape, are they stressed or just very fit, full of anticipation or suffering from pain perhaps?  They are rearing, bucking and needing some quite clear handling...





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Its top level competition horses, in a fairly charged atmosphere (even for trot up, crowds/clapping etc), and with the occasional stressed riders and grooms. You can see they know when the best moment to muck about, as its always the turn at the bottom  where it goes wrong. Its always a 'phew!' moment when the acceptance is announced. Add the fact that they've probably been wearing a lovely posh rug that's been taken off at the last minute. 
So, a fit horse, in the nip, with possibly a bit of wind up his bum, is asked to trot with energy (and has probably been doing a few practice trots before), in what looks like a field where everyone seems very excited about something. Its a miracle that half of them aren't doing a runner over the horizon frankly.


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## IrishMilo (13 July 2022)

I'm not saying it's right, but people need to understand that racing is a business. They don't have the inclination or time, like us normal folk, to play slowly slowly catchy money. These horses are worth a fortune with trainers, owners, investors and riders relying on the horses running to keep their business going. They'd be no racers on the track if they were all pulled out and sent to Kelly Marks each time they had a moment... and I say that as someone who's had an ex-racer who had to be PTS as he was so broken, and fundamentally disagrees with how they are pushed.


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## TPO (13 July 2022)

IrishMilo said:



			I'm not saying it's right, but people need to understand that racing is a business. They don't have the inclination or time, like us normal folk, to play slowly slowly catchy money. These horses are worth a fortune with trainers, owners, investors and riders relying on the horses running to keep their business going. They'd be no racers on the track if they were all pulled out and sent to Kelly Marks each time they had a moment... and I say that as someone who's had an ex-racer who had to be PTS as he was so broken, and fundamentally disagrees with how they are pushed.
		
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Dont really understand your point? Not being sarcastic, genuinely don't understand.

We are all aware that it is a business. Its the lack of "inclination or time", amongst other factors that some take issue with. The horses are a commodity and treated as such.

Even Elf who regularly writes about her yard has posted about the incompetence of other staff along with gems like jockeys/stable staff taking their moods and frustrations out on the horses to which she has been the only person to speak up.

Much the same as you I've had ex racers that were literally broken in racing and started from a far too young age (16mths in one case). I don't see what justification there is for much of what happens in racing/training regardless of if its a business or not.


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## sakura (13 July 2022)

IrishMilo said:



			I'm not saying it's right, but people need to understand that racing is a business. They don't have the inclination or time, like us normal folk, to play slowly slowly catchy money. These horses are worth a fortune with trainers, owners, investors and riders relying on the horses running to keep their business going. They'd be no racers on the track if they were all pulled out and sent to Kelly Marks each time they had a moment... and I say that as someone who's had an ex-racer who had to be PTS as he was so broken, and fundamentally disagrees with how they are pushed.
		
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Isn't that the problem? That, for far too many people, the horses are a way to make money and nothing else - so they are often treated as such with their emotional and physical wellbeing pushed aside in order to get them raced and hopefully earn some money on the backs of them. That's exactly what I have an issue with.


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## tristar (13 July 2022)

lynz88 said:



			Is it just me or does it feel like things have escalated over the last few days?
		
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IrishMilo said:



			I'm not saying it's right, but people need to understand that racing is a business. They don't have the inclination or time, like us normal folk, to play slowly slowly catchy money. These horses are worth a fortune with trainers, owners, investors and riders relying on the horses running to keep their business going. They'd be no racers on the track if they were all pulled out and sent to Kelly Marks each time they had a moment... and I say that as someone who's had an ex-racer who had to be PTS as he was so broken, and fundamentally disagrees with how they are pushed.
		
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but that a point, it is their fulltime day job, training horses, they have all day to deal with little problems, its their actual job and they should start now to pull up their socks, up their game and frankly come into the modern age, get up to date


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## ycbm (13 July 2022)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			others like us split them into individual paddocks next to each other to minimise the risk of someone getting kicked and injured.
		
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Your pictures in post #49 aren't of daily turnout, then?  
.


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## tristar (13 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			This, from Burghley 2008 is interesting.  Are these horses trying to escape, are they stressed or just very fit, full of anticipation or suffering from pain perhaps?  They are rearing, bucking and needing some quite clear handling...





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they look fairly normal to me, we have that many a day here, ``just having fun mom``they say when i say ``whats up with you``

then settle and work or come in to bed


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## palo1 (13 July 2022)

tristar said:



			they look fairly normal to me, we have that many a day here, ``just having fun mom``they say when i say ``whats up with you``

then settle and work or come in to bed
		
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Yep. They look full of vitality, expression and self confidence to me though clearly enjoying playing the goat!! I don't think these horses are stressed or in pain.


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## Dexter (13 July 2022)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			What do you make of this bunch of miscreants at Windsor yesterday? Clearly so stressed about life ...

https://fb.watch/edfnVa4HH1/

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Almost every comment on that video is negative, which is very telling.


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## SusieT (13 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			Yep. They look full of vitality, expression and self confidence to me though clearly enjoying playing the goat!! I don't think these horses are stressed or in pain.
		
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What would you judge as a stressed horse? How would you notice it? What behaviours might you expect them to present if worried by something?


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## palo1 (13 July 2022)

SusieT said:



			What would you judge as a stressed horse? How would you notice it? What behaviours might you expect them to present if worried by something?
		
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There are so many ways in which a horse might show or evidence stress that I could be here all day listing them!!  Horsemanship is about managing horses across so many aspects of their life, their training, their injuries, their living etc etc.  I don't think it is remotely helpful to look at a moment in time and conclude that x y or z is 'evident' or clear tbh.  I posted the videos of those horses at Burghley to try to convey that.  As someone who has lived a long time with horses and been passionately interested in them I know that horses have a huge variety of emotional states and responses. They have an extraordinary capacity to react to their world and to express, physically their response to that and I think that is quite a complex thing.   

 IF I had presented a brief snapshot of one of those eventers, or perhaps a picture of Willam Fox Pitt's horse My Bay Hero trotting up at Burghley in 2014, I could probably convince half of this forum (at least) that the horse was deeply unhappy, lame and possibly ill treated.  For example this image: https://eventingnation.com/burghley-jogs-unofficial-awards-photo-gallery/ (there are plenty of images of this) Yet I don't think that it would be reasonable to conclude from that one image or watching the short clip of the trot up that I could be sure of anything about that horse's state of mind.  I would want so much more context and knowledge - partly cos I am not daft enough to think I can 'understand' an unknown horse's emotions/stress from a single image or brief clip and partly because things are very rarely, if ever, that simple.  I do understand and appreciate that people see things differently and that multiple perspectives on an issue are a good thing but many people would conclude from the context, that in fact the horse is not stressed or worried or in pain.  From knowing that My Bay Hero (for example) was a top class eventer, ridden by someone who has demonstrated the ability to create a huge level of trust and athletic success with a variety of horses, over a very extended career, with the advantage of having a wide variety of other experts and support around him to provide their perspectives, insights and expertise, you may well find that context supported that view.


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## PapaverFollis (13 July 2022)

I like how all the women have massive, leggy wild beasts and William Fox-Pit appears to have a bouncy pony onna string. 😂


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## PapaverFollis (13 July 2022)

*bypasses the point*


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## palo1 (13 July 2022)

PapaverFollis said:



			I like how all the women have massive, leggy wild beasts and William Fox-Pit appears to have a bouncy pony onna string. 😂
		
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Tamarillo was gorgeous and yes, he deffo looked like a little pony next to William FP!  Such a neat, polite set of bucks he put in too.


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## criso (13 July 2022)

My ex racer has done that paddling/pawing thing a couple of time and both times he was really stressed, not being naughty.   In between he can stand still and look around and appear as if he's ok but he's not and can explode at any time. Once was at a camp in an indoor jumping lesson.  I got on and trotted him round and he relaxed quite quickly and jumped nicely.  Another was on a xc clinic, I'd taken him away from the car park in search of something to get in from, there were no other horses.  Once on he pawed, went sideways, backwards but eventually we joined the others.  He didn't relax and we couldn't do much more than hack round and pop some tiny fences.  In him adrenaline doesn't produce anything useful, he can freeze and not go forward even when other horses are in front and outdoors can be worse as that gazing off into the distance is not taking in his surroundings but focusing on something that is worrying.

In terms of the horse in the video, I'd say it was stressed/overwrought and not really coping at that moment but I wouldn't like to say that they're not trying to work through the issues behind the scenes.  

I'm another that would rather horses weren't run at 2,  especially given how young the are started to achieve this and some will cope but others mentally aren't ready.


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## SusieT (13 July 2022)

O


palo1 said:



			There are so many ways in which a horse might show or evidence stress that I could be here all day listing them!!  Horsemanship is about managing horses across so many aspects of their life, their training, their injuries, their living etc etc.  I don't think it is remotely helpful to look at a moment in time and conclude that x y or z is 'evident' or clear tbh.  I posted the videos of those horses at Burghley to try to convey that.  As someone who has lived a long time with horses and been passionately interested in them I know that horses have a huge variety of emotional states and responses. They have an extraordinary capacity to react to their world and to express, physically their response to that and I think that is quite a complex thing.  

IF I had presented a brief snapshot of one of those eventers, or perhaps a picture of Willam Fox Pitt's horse My Bay Hero trotting up at Burghley in 2014, I could probably convince half of this forum (at least) that the horse was deeply unhappy, lame and possibly ill treated.  For example this image: https://eventingnation.com/burghley-jogs-unofficial-awards-photo-gallery/ (there are plenty of images of this) Yet I don't think that it would be reasonable to conclude from that one image or watching the short clip of the trot up that I could be sure of anything about that horse's state of mind.  I would want so much more context and knowledge - partly cos I am not daft enough to think I can 'understand' an unknown horse's emotions/stress from a single image or brief clip and partly because things are very rarely, if ever, that simple.  I do understand and appreciate that people see things differently and that multiple perspectives on an issue are a good thing but many people would conclude from the context, that in fact the horse is not stressed or worried or in pain.  From knowing that My Bay Hero (for example) was a top class eventer, ridden by someone who has demonstrated the ability to create a huge level of trust and athletic success with a variety of horses, over a very extended career, with the advantage of having a wide variety of other experts and support around him to provide their perspectives, insights and expertise, you may well find that context supported that view.
		
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You make a long post which basically says that you don't really know how you would tell but as long as it comes from an expensive yard and can be made to look pretty it must be pretty happy. 

You might find some useful information here :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8743789/
https://thehorse.com/1108226/horses-facial-expressions-of-pain-can-also-indicate-stress/


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## palo1 (13 July 2022)

SusieT said:



			O




You make a long post which basically says that you don't really know how you would tell but as long as it comes from an expensive yard and can be made to look pretty it must be pretty happy.

You might find some useful information here :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8743789/
https://thehorse.com/1108226/horses-facial-expressions-of-pain-can-also-indicate-stress/

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I have read these previously and am generally interested in our developing understanding of horses emotions and perspectives but thank you.  What I was trying to convey had nothing to do with expensive yards, or smart grooming but yeah, ok...


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## IrishMilo (14 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			Yep. They look full of vitality, expression and self confidence to me though clearly enjoying playing the goat!! I don't think these horses are stressed or in pain.
		
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tristar said:



			they look fairly normal to me, we have that many a day here, ``just having fun mom``they say when i say ``whats up with you``
		
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What a bizarre double standard. I guess place some cheery music and buckets of flowers over the racing videos and you'd have a different POV...


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## palo1 (14 July 2022)

IrishMilo said:



			What a bizarre double standard. I guess place some cheery music and buckets of flowers over the racing videos and you'd have a different POV...
		
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I am not sure what you are getting at @IrishMilo  - sorry!  Do you think the eventers in the clip were stressed/unhappy?  If so, what makes you think that and does the context of that situation make any difference to your understanding or assesment of that?  What I was trying to convey was that it is very difficult to state that any horse is in xyz state purely from a short clip.  The racehorse certainly looked agitated at moments and yes, that might be uncomfortable viewing but equally, you could post a split second image or short clip of eventer Opposition Buzz rearing at the trot up at Burghley and assert that he was stressed/unhappy.  That might, out of context, make uncomfortable viewing Do you think that is the case or do you think that for eg Opposition Buzz was feeling very lively and expressing that? 

For me, I think it is impossibly reductive to view any horse behaviour out of context and in fact I would suggest that it could be quite misleading to make assertions about things in that way.


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## tristar (14 July 2022)

was talking about the event horses not the racehorse


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## ycbm (14 July 2022)

This event horses are to my view undoubtedly wound up. They are also undoubtedly very fit. And every very fit horse I've owned had been far more spooky when fit than when let down.  Spooky meaning hypervigilant, looking for things to kick off about.

A long time ago when I made that link I started wondering when we are going to start questioning our right to deliberately put horses into a physical state which makes it so much more likely that life will upset their mental state. (And now we also breed them for dressage and showing for  "presence".)   I think that time is here,  especially with Peta (see other thread)  suggesting that horses should not be ridden at all.
.


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## IrishMilo (14 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			I am not sure what you are getting at @IrishMilo  - sorry!  Do you think the eventers in the clip were stressed/unhappy?  If so, what makes you think that and does the context of that situation make any difference to your understanding or assesment of that?  What I was trying to convey was that it is very difficult to state that any horse is in xyz state purely from a short clip.  The racehorse certainly looked agitated at moments and yes, that might be uncomfortable viewing but equally, you could post a split second image or short clip of eventer Opposition Buzz rearing at the trot up at Burghley and assert that he was stressed/unhappy.  That might, out of context, make uncomfortable viewing Do you think that is the case or do you think that for eg Opposition Buzz was feeling very lively and expressing that?

For me, I think it is impossibly reductive to view any horse behaviour out of context and in fact I would suggest that it could be quite misleading to make assertions about things in that way.
		
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Sorry Palo, I was just making a point that there seems to be a double standard going on here amongst some posters whereby if it's shown on a racetrack the horse is in obvious distress, but if it's to do with our beloved eventing the horses are just fit and up for it...


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## palo1 (14 July 2022)

IrishMilo said:



			Sorry Palo, I was just making a point that there seems to be a double standard going on here amongst some posters whereby if it's shown on a racetrack the horse is in obvious distress, but if it's to do with our beloved eventing the horses are just fit and up for it...
		
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Ah!! Ok, thanks for explaining that


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## palo1 (14 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			This event horses are to my view undoubtedly wound up. They are also undoubtedly very fit. And every very horse I've owned had been far more spooky when fit than when let down.  Spooky meaning hypervigilant, looking for things to kick off about.

A long time ago when I made that link I started wondering when we are going to start questioning our right to deliberately put horses into a physical. state which makes it so much more likely that life will upset their mental state. (And now we also breed them for dressage and showing for  "presence".)   I think that time is here,  especially with Peta (see other thread)  suggesting that horses should not be ridden at all.
.
		
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Yes,  a fit horse can be more reactive to it's environment but not always.  Some/possibly as many horses are reactive/spooky if they don't have enough to do and think about too. I don't know that it is unfair to get and keep a healthy horse fit; that would be the very last thing on my list of welfare priorities tbh.  I do think that racing 2 year old horses should be ended; that seems unequivocally unfair and unethical in light of what we know about horses skeletal-muscular development as well as their mental/emotional health.  BUT an appropriate degree of work at an appropriately young age is suggested to help a horse's bone density and soundness.  Where and how do you draw the line unless you take PETA's stance that no horse should be ridden, no animal kept for our pleasure.  Would you want to spend the rest of your life being unable to engage with a cat/dog etc?  I certainly couldn't support anything like that, not only because selfishly that would cause me no end of misery (I simply have never been able to imagine life without a dog for instance)  but because I think it would be an absolutely disaster for our relationship with nature and the environment.  Truly, removing the human from inter-species interactions is utterly non-sensical and to me, dangerous.  But, PETA members have a right to their opinion. 

In relation to the idea of horses not being ridden, competed etc I think that is way down in the list of ways we could improve the lot of domestic horses or any other animal frankly; it is just a fantasy/nonsense to think that is the 'answer' to a world where animals are absolutely part of the human world.


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## stangs (14 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			Yes, a fit horse can be more reactive to it's environment but not always. Some/possibly as many horses are reactive/spooky if they don't have enough to do and think about too.
		
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Tbh I think this is a training issue, and one that affects their mental welfare considerably. They shouldn’t need to constantly be focused on something. They should be able to relax under saddle too. But, the more competitive you are, the more you focus on creating an animal who’s always switched on and highly sensitive to your aids, whilst repeatedly putting them in potentially stressful environments (shows), and never teaching them how to switch off under the saddle (should we be taking a page out of cutting trainers’ books?), nor how to regulate their emotions and bring their own stress levels down… And then you end up with an animal with chronic stress, which certainly isn’t beneficial for them.

However I suppose if the animal’s still doing well in competitions, and still rideable then why care…


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## TPO (14 July 2022)

stangs said:



			Tbh I think this is a training issue, and one that affects their mental welfare considerably. They shouldn’t need to constantly be focused on something. They should be able to relax under saddle too. But, the more competitive you are, the more you focus on creating an animal who’s always switched on and highly sensitive to your aids, whilst repeatedly putting them in potentially stressful environments (shows), and never teaching them how to switch off under the saddle (should we be taking a page out of cutting trainers’ books?), nor how to regulate their emotions and bring their own stress levels down… And then you end up with an animal with chronic stress, which certainly isn’t beneficial for them.

However I suppose if the animal’s still doing well in competitions, and still rideable then why care…
		
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This.

I've worked with extremely fit horses who've also competed in "high octane" sports like cutting, campdrafting and polo cross. None were spooky, sharp or "stupid" at training or competitions.

Their training taught them how to manage stress/emotions and use a release. 

When you actually stand back and look at it objectively it's pretty poor what English (of all nationalities) allow/cause and accept. Amber's Echo wrote about this point much better than I have in her post about a Buck Brannaman clinic. 

Warwick Schiller seems to be the main current person filtering this down with managing stress, matching steps etc


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## palo1 (14 July 2022)

stangs said:



			Tbh I think this is a training issue, and one that affects their mental welfare considerably. They shouldn’t need to constantly be focused on something. They should be able to relax under saddle too. But, the more competitive you are, the more you focus on creating an animal who’s always switched on and highly sensitive to your aids, whilst repeatedly putting them in potentially stressful environments (shows), and never teaching them how to switch off under the saddle (should we be taking a page out of cutting trainers’ books?), nor how to regulate their emotions and bring their own stress levels down… And then you end up with an animal with chronic stress, which certainly isn’t beneficial for them.

However I suppose if the animal’s still doing well in competitions, and still rideable then why care…
		
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I don't know anyone that trains horses that wants them to be switched on all the time. In fact, for years the basis of training with the people I know has always been about developing relaxation and about being able to cue that switching on or off.    I don't know either, any competitive rider that doesn't invest considerable time and energy in promoting and developing relaxation so your experience/assertion is really alien and unfamiliar to me.  Are you sure you mean to suggest that it is common practice in most disciplines not to actively develop relaxation?


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## Gingerwitch (14 July 2022)

ycbm said:



			Do you have any figures on what proportion of racing stables have daily turnout? 
.
		
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I cannot tell you how many livery yards I know of that don't have daily turnout cine October to April. It's heartbreaking and those poor horses don't even get out for exercise 😢


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## stangs (14 July 2022)

palo1 said:



			I don't know anyone that trains horses that wants them to be switched on all the time. In fact, for years the basis of training with the people I know has always been about developing relaxation and about being able to cue that switching on or off. I don't know either, any competitive rider that doesn't invest considerable time and energy in promoting and developing relaxation so your experience/assertion is really alien and unfamiliar to me. Are you sure you mean to suggest that it is common practice in most disciplines not to actively develop relaxation?
		
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Most of the 'relaxation' training I see is really just training focus on the rider and throughness in the muscles, not actual switched off relaxation. Either that, or "horse is too tired to be switched on " 'relaxation'.

E.g.,
A pro SJer I used to hack with was very keen on training her sharp horse to 'relax' out hacking, i.e., to not spook at everything. Big pats (problematic in their own way) whenever he chewed or yawned or ignored something. But God forbid he dared to take a few strides to break into trot from walk - every transition had to be exact. She wasn't truly training him to switch off: she was training him to switch off to his surroundings, but always be switched on to her aids. Really, horses need the chance to do the opposite sometimes too.

A dressage rider I knew was also big on 'relaxation', i.e., not having tension in the back so horse could move correctly. Did lots of long and low, and horse would drop head, move through back etc everything you want to see. But you couldn't get it to stand and just chill. It had to be doing something, because it knew saddle = work. At first, it couldn't stand still, so she used Parelli style work to make it. Then it couldn't stand without pawing, so R- was used to stop that behaviour too. And, when all the 'bad behaviour' was dealt with, horse's ears still were flicking a hundred times a minute to wait for its next command, and horse would jumpstart at the slightest pressure. Like the SJer, rider didn't consider this a problem, or the opposite of relaxation, because transitions had to be clean. You couldn't give it a genuinely long rein unless it was exhausted from being ridden, or else it would freak out on you. I never once saw that horse's eye soften.

(ETA: and these examples are both outside of competitive settings. At show grounds, 'relaxation' under saddle seems to be horse focusing only on rider set to max settings. No switching off like Western horses.)

For me, genuine relaxation is a soft eye and otherwise relaxed facial muscles. A horse that can look around and appreciate its surroundings without panicking, relying on the rider for emotional support or being focused on when it will receive its next aid. Who doesn't need to always be given things to think about. Who can be startled by something, but then release that tension and move on, rather than trigger stacking.

I'd be interested to hear your experiences of how people, especially professionals, train a horse to actually relax, as I'm yet to see any _competitive_ English rider do so. I've known some happy hackers and some low-level TREC folk work towards this, but that's it.


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## milliepops (14 July 2022)

I think there's a growing movement towards teaching the horse to relax (itself),  look at how more dressage pros are working with TRT as one example.  That's got a lot to do with developing self management in the horse through various techniques so it's not permanently wired.


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## palo1 (15 July 2022)

stangs said:



			Most of the 'relaxation' training I see is really just training focus on the rider and throughness in the muscles, not actual switched off relaxation. Either that, or "horse is too tired to be switched on " 'relaxation'.

E.g.,
A pro SJer I used to hack with was very keen on training her sharp horse to 'relax' out hacking, i.e., to not spook at everything. Big pats (problematic in their own way) whenever he chewed or yawned or ignored something. But God forbid he dared to take a few strides to break into trot from walk - every transition had to be exact. She wasn't truly training him to switch off: she was training him to switch off to his surroundings, but always be switched on to her aids. Really, horses need the chance to do the opposite sometimes too.

A dressage rider I knew was also big on 'relaxation', i.e., not having tension in the back so horse could move correctly. Did lots of long and low, and horse would drop head, move through back etc everything you want to see. But you couldn't get it to stand and just chill. It had to be doing something, because it knew saddle = work. At first, it couldn't stand still, so she used Parelli style work to make it. Then it couldn't stand without pawing, so R- was used to stop that behaviour too. And, when all the 'bad behaviour' was dealt with, horse's ears still were flicking a hundred times a minute to wait for its next command, and horse would jumpstart at the slightest pressure. Like the SJer, rider didn't consider this a problem, or the opposite of relaxation, because transitions had to be clean. You couldn't give it a genuinely long rein unless it was exhausted from being ridden, or else it would freak out on you. I never once saw that horse's eye soften.

(ETA: and these examples are both outside of competitive settings. At show grounds, 'relaxation' under saddle seems to be horse focusing only on rider set to max settings. No switching off like Western horses.)

For me, genuine relaxation is a soft eye and otherwise relaxed facial muscles. A horse that can look around and appreciate its surroundings without panicking, relying on the rider for emotional support or being focused on when it will receive its next aid. Who doesn't need to always be given things to think about. Who can be startled by something, but then release that tension and move on, rather than trigger stacking.

I'd be interested to hear your experiences of how people, especially professionals, train a horse to actually relax, as I'm yet to see any _competitive_ English rider do so. I've known some happy hackers and some low-level TREC folk work towards this, but that's it.
		
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I am aware of several appoaches - some of which are quite old school  (as in not especially 'fashionable') though as @milliepops says there are people 'out there' using TRT and other methods.  Back in the 90s much of the training I was getting was influenced by Molly Sivewright (Talland) and Erik Herbermann as well as other people influenced by Pojhadsky.  All of those made their training fundamentally dependent on progressive, sympathetic work where the horse relaxing and understanding how to relax for him/herself was the key to quality.  I found Bill Dorrance to be great as well in the specifics of the rider enabling a horse to learn how to solve problems of tension for itself though that was a different kind of riding of course.   There has been some good work done by natural horseman type trainers which has really got into the wider public consciousness (I don't just mean Monty Roberts and Parelli but more localised trainers that have been on hand for many people to turn to for help)  where understanding what relaxation for a horse looked like in groundwork initially was important.  I think that is kind of where most thinking  riders are at now, especially where there is an aim for the horse to advance it's work.   It doesn't always translate or get communicated at a basic level sadly and there are many people for whom the 'goal' is more important than the horse's state of mind.   The switched off relaxation of course isn't something you are likely to see at the moment of competition though as we might want our horses to be concentrating as well as really engaging with the environment and activity.  Also, horses have their own ideas and judging from last night's thundering of hooves and generally noisy shenanigans outside my bedroom window there are lots of reasons for a horse to be not switched off lol. 

When you watch a great many horses that are kind of systematically trained they do demonstrate (ime) considerable relaxation and confidence - the lovely soft eye, long walk, confidence to graze in hand or perform other natural behaviours even whilst at a 'different' place such as a competition venue.  I don't mind seeing healthy horses alert, playful and in a very alert state tbh either; it doesn't necessarily signal a kind of tension which I think is concerning.  When I have watched our entirely 'natural' hill pony herd they can be incredibly dynamic - for reasons which are often not obvious and exhibit many signs of 'tension' in their natural interactions with each other.  When I ride with them  or through them sometimes they are very alert, running alongside our horses - potentially demonstrating those signs of 'stress' yet sometimes they literally don't give a stuff and stay grazing, snoozing etc.  I don't think we can be entirely certain that we can either totally understand or control a horse's mental state - they are intelligent and emotional animals so that seems like a very limited and unsympathetic approach to me. 

Maybe I am very lucky in that just about everyone I know who rides, strives to achieve a relaxed state or to promote relaxation in their horses; in their living arrangements, their confidence with in hand and ridden work.  That makes life so much better for us of course too.


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## humblepie (15 July 2022)

A couple of the earlier comments made me think back to the dressage Europeans at Windsor - in the presentation/afterwards Totilas just walked round on a long rein, his rider waving to the crowds and you could see as he left the arena to go into the smaller warm up he just plodded along like he was my horse hacking up the lane (though obviously with a bit more style!).  The other horses were really hyped up, one in particular being lead in with the rider on board and when they left the arena it was at high speed and circuiting round the warm up.   Could those horses have learned to relax?  Would it affect their competition edge?  Is it just that some horses are more chilled than others.  Not getting at dressage or those horses and riders who are at the top of the game.  It is just something I find interesting.  Nature or nuture?


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## palo1 (15 July 2022)

As a not particularly helpful comment hahahaha I was always told that if I wanted to bet on a racehorse to choose the one that was walking round in a totally relaxed way in the paddock; I think we have actually always known the value of relaxation in any interaction with horses and that is often why 'temperament' is so important in breeding (well some breeding lol!).  I am not sure why anyone would think otherwise but in relation to the horse in the OP, he probably wasn't relaxed at times but at other points I think looked to be more relaxed and confident and in fact, his record is not bad.  It's not simple...


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## oldie48 (15 July 2022)

Leaving aside the issue of whether 2 year olds should be racing and focusing on "unwanted" behaviour, I have to admit that every young horse we've had has on occasion exhibited behaviour that could be described as "stress related" and I know some would say could be "pain related", add in a high level of fitness and we found it was a recipe for high jinks. Surely training is about helping the horse to cope in situations that he might find initially stressful or over exciting but are actually quite safe? Immediately removing them from such a situation teaches them nothing positive. I totally support anyone who decides they never want to put their horse into a stressful or over exciting situation and assume that means they will stop riding. Hacking today we met a happy band of DofE kids sitting either side of a narrow lane, huge backpacks beside them and much popping of cans. Mr D was quite stressed, rather keen on whipping round to go home by the shortest route and took some encouragement to walk past (no, I didn't beat him!). When he was a youngster he would whip round and go home, if stopped, he'd stand up and  then try again to go home, fortunately he is now prepared to listen to his rider. That didn't happen by accident. With regard to the video and again leaving aside the fact that it was an incident on a race course, if a horse I was sat on behaved like this I'd be very grateful to have those guys around to help because they managed to keep both the rider and the horse safe.


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## bonny (24 September 2022)

Just came back and read through this thread again as Blackbeard, the horse in question then went to France twice and won two Group 1s and today he won another group 1 at Newmarket. He still does the weird pawing thing and is still impatient but is obviously a top class 2 year old.


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## ycbm (24 September 2022)

bonny said:



			Just came back and read through this thread again as Blackbeard, the horse in question then went to France twice and won two Group 1s and today he won another group 1 at Newmarket. He still does the weird pawing thing and is still impatient but is obviously a top class 2 year old.
		
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I'm not sure what difference  it makes to the thread that he wins races,  except that it makes him way, way too valuable to remove from the source of his stress.

Poor little baby, only 2½ years old. 
.


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## Goldenstar (24 September 2022)

It’s ok for horses to be reactive to the environment .
Event horses know what coming at three day they don’t get that level hating the job getting through the trot up without mayor embarrassment was always a relief .


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## MyBoyChe (24 September 2022)

I watched the coverage on ITV today and I must admit I interpret his behaviour as impatience with a touch of temperament thrown in.  Aidans interview seemed to suggest the same I thought,  I believe his sire is well known for throwing quirky offspring!!  After the race he seemed much more settled so that would add up.  He is undoubtedly talented but I doubt Ballydoyle would continue to race him if he were either a danger to himself or others,  I would also think he has been investigated for all ailments known to man.


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## Goldenstar (25 September 2022)

Upfront I will say racing is not my thing .


Elf On A Shelf said:



			What do you make of this bunch of miscreants at Windsor yesterday? Clearly so stressed about life ...
https://fb.watch/edfnVa4HH1/

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 What I think about the above is that’s what happens when you take a group of half broke babies fed loads of food in public for a run about .

On the smart dark horse .
That racehorse is stressed for sure he’s probably quirky and probably settle to the job .He’s a valuable horse from a great yard that won’t be skimping on the health checks and the like yes racing is a business but it’s not a given that poor care comes with that .I think of many horses who their owner say they love being cared for in a sub optimal way living quietly and miserable out of the public eye .
Not sure I would send a mare to him .


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## Red-1 (25 September 2022)

I had a lovely cob X ID some years ago, a work horse. He was usually well adjusted but the first time out hunting, he was so excited he was pawing and trying to lie down. Yes, excited can be interpreted as stress, but then the next time he was fine and he was hale and hearty for years so I don't think it did lasting damage.

I don't like them racing at two, I think 4 is more appropriate as an outsider looking in. But then, I don't like horses abandoned in postage stamp paddocks either. I detest rugs being left on for more than 12 hours. I hate horses being fed grain then punished for misbehaving. I hate horses that are shod, fed grain and only turned out for a few hours being chucked out together, especially in mixed groups, often with little introduction, especially when the owners are then surprised that they are kicked and claim it couldn't have been foreseen. But, I understand that I'm not in charge of them.

I think we could up our game in this country re horse welfare but the main organisation that would be expected to do that seems to follow a more political path. I have tried to call them on a few occasions, none were successful and the last ended in a slow and painful death.


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## Goldenstar (25 September 2022)

Excited and stressed by stimuli are very very similar in terms of the reaction that horses have  within the body .
It’s normal and healthy for horses to feel like that at times, they are a herd flight animals hard wired to react to atmosphere and the level of energy in their fellows .

Chronic stress the type caused by poor stabling ,nasty little wet fields , lack of of exercise low grade lameness and all manner of things that horses put up with that’s the real nasty thing leading to permanently raised cortisol levels and all the ill health that leads from that .
I am glad Blackbeard has won a race and hope he goes on to secure himself a long well cared for life as a stallion .


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## Elf On A Shelf (24 October 2022)

Blackboard has been retired to stud due to injury. He was supposed to take in the Breeders Cup this year then go on as a 3yo for the Classics but it is not to be.


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## stangs (24 October 2022)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Blackboard has been retired to stud due to injury. He was supposed to take in the Breeders Cup this year then go on as a 3yo for the Classics but it is not to be.
		
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Putting a 2yo who's already been injured to stud seems a strange choice, given he's not had much chance to prove himself. Do you think they'll put him to stud for now and then try bring him back into work?


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## Elf On A Shelf (24 October 2022)

stangs said:



			Putting a 2yo who's already been injured to stud seems a strange choice, given he's not had much chance to prove himself. Do you think they'll put him to stud for now and then try bring him back into work?
		
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No. He has obviously done too much of an injury to risk bringing back into work. If was going to be fit to race again in 9-10 months they would train on. But clearly not.


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## Velcrobum (24 October 2022)

The trainer says he has a bone chip in a knee.

https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...etired-after-picking-up-gallops-injury/585415


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## Crazy_cat_lady (24 October 2022)

At least he's retired in one piece.

Feel more sorry for if the cap fits who's markings I loved - form had dropped off last season, probably fallen out of love with the game, had won his very rich owners lots of money

Do they retire and find another job?

Nope sent to sales, purchased by the wilsons who run their horses into the ground/put no hopers in big races

Poor s*d falls yesterday, breaking a leg.


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