# Why I'm giving up - a YM's perspective



## Disillusioned (31 July 2016)

For info, I am a long time forum user under a different name but needed to be anonymous for this.

So, I am a very experienced livery yard manager and for several years, I have been renting and running a yard. I provide full and part livery  full includes turning out, bringing in, mucking out, bedding, feed and hay (good quality, ad lib); part is the same but without mucking out and bedding. (The terms of my lease dont allow me to offer DIY.) The horses are turned out every day of the year, I have a decent 20x60 school, good hacking and the yard is well located for local venues.

There have been many threads which have culminated in this post, particularly the recent one regarding costs of extras and what people consider a reasonable charge/service. Ive got a few points to make, so please bear with me!

Firstly, the cost of livery in general. My prices are quite reasonable for my area of the country, and I provide a high standard of care. However, when I put the prices up by £30 per month last year (previous rise was 3 years prior), there were mutterings from some of my owners. (The rise was due to costs of hay and feed rising over time and increases in my yard rent and insurance amongst other things, so quite justifiable.)

As all yard owners/managers know, we cannot charge what would actually be a realistic price for livery because only a minority would then be able to afford it! I tried to think of something to put it into context against and the best I could come up with was renting a room in a house. Round here, you cant get a room for less than £450 per month. If you think of DIY livery as your horse lodging on someone elses property, how many people could afford that as a starting point?

And then the cost of extras for DIYs/what is actually included in the service for part/full livery....

There have been comments about how long it should take to pick out feet and that it is an unskilled job. When I pick a horses feet out, Im not just removing mud and stones. As I run my hand down the horses leg to pick the foot up, Im automatically checking for any heat/cuts/swelling, etc. Im also checking the shoes  all there/twisted/loose/risen clenches? Any sign of heat in the hoof/bruising/thrush? If unshod, any cracks? All in the few minutes the job takes me. Surely this is worth the £1.50 some people begrudge paying?

Rug changes  not just a case of drag one off and chuck another on. Again, Im checking - is the rug damaged/rubbing/leaking? Is the horse too hot/cold? Making sure Im putting the appropriate rug on for that horse. As well as giving the horse a general condition check.

Turning out/bringing in. Im giving the horse a general once over here too. Is it stiff/lame/any cuts or knocks? Filled legs? Eaten breakfast/last nights hay? Drunk usual amount? And obviously, if there are any injuries, I will treat them accordingly and notify the owner.

If the horse is young/green/ill-mannered, then I am by default also training it to be polite and easy to deal with for no extra cost.

I know all my horses beds regardless of whether I muck them out or not. So I can tell if the bed is too neat/messy/dirty/clean for that horse. I know all my horses characters and quirks and what is normal appearance and behaviour for each one. Therefore I will notice quickly if something isnt right and deal with it appropriately.

Taking into account the above, and the time spent on indirect labour such as poo-picking, general field/yard/arena maintenance, admin, etc, a basic daily labour charge of £10 per horse on my yard wouldnt seem unreasonable. But that would be £300 per horse per month before any other costs. And would then need a bit more added onto the full liveries for my mucking them out.

Ah yes, the other costs. There are the obvious ones such as hay, feed, etc. But also things such as the yard rent, insurance, rates, maintaining/replacing yard equipment and fencing, maintaining first aid kits, fire extinguisher checks, National Insurance, etc. Some years I pay tax, others my earnings havent gone above the tax-free allowance. And if a box is empty, then my income drops by a few hundred a month, but there is actually minimal difference in the outgoings.

If you add the £300 labour charge to, say, a £400 lodging (to use my previous comparison) charge to cover all other costs, that would put my part livery at £700 per month. A lot more than what it is at present and considerably more than my current full livery price! But if I was able to charge this sort of money then I would actually be able to earn a reasonable living.

And there is the issue. I now cannot long-term earn a reasonable living unless peoples ideas of what livery should realistically cost move forward. I never expected to make a fortune and I know this sort of work is a lifestyle choice. But please bear in mind that without people like me making this choice or property owners choosing to provide equine facilities, whether a basic field or all the bells and whistles, people would not be able to make the lifestyle choice to own a horse. I do genuinely love my job, and I know I am good at it  my happy relaxed horses and owners are proof  but unfortunately appreciation and job satisfaction dont pay the bills. I have 25+ years experience, qualifications, have over the years managed yards of 30+ horses and teams of staff. In many other industries, Id be on pretty good money. But not in horses. 

Unfortunately I can no longer afford, or want, to subsidise other peoples horses. 

The reason for the new user name and for not going into more detail about me and my yard is so hopefully no-one will recognise me.

This is because, on 1st August, I will be handing a letter to the owners of my yard giving the required period of notice to terminate my lease. And depending on what the owners then decide to do with the yard, I may have to give notice to my liveries, and I wouldnt want anyone to find out from here before I tell them myself.


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## maisie06 (31 July 2016)

Good for you.

Only in the equine world do people expect others to subsidise their expensive hobby. I too read the "extras" thread and could not believe the whining over £1.50 to pick out hooves.....back in the day when I had horses I used the services of one of the girls on my yard when I worked a  late shift... £3 per horse for check/feed/hay in the field (lived out) was a BARGAIN and saved me going up at a ridiculous hour groping around in the dark..not to mention petrol, yet some on the yard though this was expensive WTF???

As for the price of feed and especially hay, if you can't afford it - sell the bloody horse - anyone whining about hay prices should be made to make hay...cutting, turning, baling and stacking, if they knew first hand the work that went into each bale they soon shut up. Many will happily pay a fiver for a bag of treat yet have a blue fit if a bag of feed goes up by 10p..

OP I know exactly where you are coming from on this and wish you the best in the future and don't blame you at all for getting out of the game.


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## splashgirl45 (31 July 2016)

you sound like a good caring ym and it is a shame you feel you cannot carry on due to the money situation.  due to lack of money i keep my horse on complete diy and  when taking stable rent,bedding,hay and feed costs this adds up to approx £400 per month and i do absolutely everything, so i appreciate that if you are providing all of this the liveries needed to realise that if they want their horses looked after they would have to pay quite a bit more than £400 per month...hope you get through this without feeling too upset and good luck for the future...


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## misst (31 July 2016)

Living in the southeast I am amazed that you consider the above charges expensive.  I have, over the years, tried several times to work out how yards are made to pay and always considered that I had a good price for my livery. We have been DIY, assisted DIY, part and for a short time full livery. Whilst full livery is very expensive it is still value for money when you look at costs involved. Sadly I don't have any horses at present but if ever the time comes to have/share/help with another I shall need to look at costs carefully as hay and bedding seems to be going up and up in price. 
It is such a pity when good YM have to give up. Several yards around here have closed over the last 5 years and most of them due to not being able to make ends meet. I am always shocked when people complain about the cost of their livery. If they tried to rent a yard for themselves they would soon stop moaning about cost and be moaning about the time and energy needed to sustain a safe pleasant environment for themselves and their horses. 
I hope it all works well for you and that your liveries appreciate what you have done for them.


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## McFluff (31 July 2016)

So sorry to read this. It sounds like your owners have lost a great set up and support. As an employer, I know and understand all the costs in providing a service (in any industry) - and sadly this isn't always understood by consumers. Not at all helped by the fact that there will always be others offering things 'cheaper' - not sustainably though. 
Personally I willingly pay a good rate for my livery - I see and understand the costs to provide the level of care my horse gets.  I expect an annual increase as staff costs go up every year. I'm always surprised when others don't expect to pay more. Maybe it's just because I'm so aware of staff costs and the costs of running a service business. 
Good luck in whatever you choose to do next. I hope things work out for you and all your clients.


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## marmalade76 (31 July 2016)

It has to be accepted that no one will ever make a living out of running a livery yard, if you tried you simply wouldn't get the custom, the majority just wouldn't be able to afford to keep horses. It needs to be a side line, treated as a bit of pocket money or to cover the cost of your own horses. Sad but true.


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## Goldenstar (31 July 2016)

I am sad for you 
I don't understand why people value the skills of the people caring for their horses so little .


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## dozzie (31 July 2016)

Totally understand.


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## Disillusioned (31 July 2016)

Thank you all for your supportive replies. It's reassuring to see that some people do appreciate the true costs involved.

misst - my current charges are comparable to other yards in my area. If I was able to fill my yard with people paying a more realistic £700 a month  then I could afford to stay in business! It seems that only the local posh competition yard can get away with anywhere near that sort of charge, purely because of who they are - they cater for the stereotypical "all the gear/no idea" middle-aged dressage women with rich husbands and too much time on their hands. I visit that place fairly regularly when grooming for a friend and the care and stable management is quite frankly of a poor standard and you certainly don't get what you pay for - I wouldn't keep a horse there.


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## dominobrown (31 July 2016)

I agree with OP and thinks its such a shame.
I do think the whole industry needs a wake up call. I think because actual horses themselves are relatively cheap, however the cost to care and produce them has gone up, and then people whine about £2500 for an all-rounder! 
Another problem is that a lot of people might be good riders, but have not worked on a yard. They have no idea what it actually costs to run a business.
You end up with what we have up here... hardly any livery yards and barely on 'proper' ones, but the proper ones which do charge more are full as its all about demand and supply!


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## be positive (31 July 2016)

marmalade76 said:



			It has to be accepted that no one will ever make a living out of running a livery yard, if you tried you simply wouldn't get the custom, the majority just wouldn't be able to afford to keep horses. It needs to be a side line, treated as a bit of pocket money or to cover the cost of your own horses. Sad but true.
		
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It should not be accepted, why should people have their hobby subsidised they won't get to take part in any other hobbies at a rate that leaves the providers out of pocket, if people cannot afford to own a horse and pay a decent amount to allow the YO to make more than pocket money then they should not have a horse, sad but true!!

I run a small yard, luckily I own the property and it is now paid for so my income is just about enough to make ends meet, if I had rent or a mortgage to pay then I would have to either put the prices up well out of the reach of most of my clients or close down I would rather it empty than running at a complete loss, like the OP I have many years experience and think that many owners do expect the YO to provide a good service yet want it for as little as possible, fair enough they want it to be competitive but the way livery is going I think many places will close, prices in many areas will rise and horse owning will become far more expensive over the next few years.


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## MotherOfChickens (31 July 2016)

I am sorry OP, it's hard to give up something you find so rewarding. You're preaching to the converted here-horsey people are the tightest I've ever dealt with. I've worked in three aspects of the equine industry and have sworn to never run a business dependent on horse owners ever again. 


Anyone thinking £1.50 to pick out feet should then be made to do it for 20 horses-including the wet, muddy, wet and muddy feathered ones, the ignorant ones, the ones that can't hold up their own feet and the ar53hole ones.


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## Disillusioned (31 July 2016)

marmalade76 said:



			It has to be accepted that no one will ever make a living out of running a livery yard, if you tried you simply wouldn't get the custom, the majority just wouldn't be able to afford to keep horses. It needs to be a side line, treated as a bit of pocket money or to cover the cost of your own horses. Sad but true.
		
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But running a decent yard properly is a full time job - how am I meant to find the time and energy to earn another income? And why should I have to accept only earning "pocket money" when so many other people earn enough to be able to afford to have horses on livery?

And I don't currently have my own horse - I cannot afford to have a box permanently non-earning.


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## dozzie (31 July 2016)

be positive said:



			It should not be accepted, why should people have their hobby subsidised they won't get to take part in any other hobbies at a rate that leaves the providers out of pocket, if people cannot afford to own a horse and pay a decent amount to allow the YO to make more than pocket money then they should not have a horse, sad but true!!

I run a small yard, luckily I own the property and it is now paid for so my income is just about enough to make ends meet, if I had rent or a mortgage to pay then I would have to either put the prices up well out of the reach of most of my clients or close down I would rather it empty than running at a complete loss, like the OP I have many years experience and think that many owners do expect the YO to provide a good service yet want it for as little as possible, fair enough they want it to be competitive but the way livery is going I think many places will close, prices in many areas will rise and horse owning will become far more expensive over the next few years.
		
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Totally agree.


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## marmalade76 (31 July 2016)

be positive said:



			It should not be accepted, why should people have their hobby subsidised they won't get to take part in any other hobbies at a rate that leaves the providers out of pocket, if people cannot afford to own a horse and pay a decent amount to allow the YO to make more than pocket money then they should not have a horse, sad but true!!

I run a small yard, luckily I own the property and it is now paid for so my income is just about enough to make ends meet, if I had rent or a mortgage to pay then I would have to either put the prices up well out of the reach of most of my clients or close down I would rather it empty than running at a complete loss, like the OP I have many years experience and think that many owners do expect the YO to provide a good service yet want it for as little as possible, fair enough they want it to be competitive but the way livery is going I think many places will close, prices in many areas will rise and horse owning will become far more expensive over the next few years.
		
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What will happen if all livery yards charged as the OP suggests is horse ownership will go back to how it was in the old days - only the rich and those who own land will be able to own horses = very limited custom. Some might say that would be a good thing. Makes no odds to me, never kept my horses on a livery yard.


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## Haz:) (31 July 2016)

Sorry to hear about this OP. You seem very genuine - and have many qualities you want in a YO!!

I can't afford anything other than DIY. My yard only offers that - it's £15 a week (I have 2 horses and a mini which is £5). I pay to have 0.5 acre, 2 stables - although a livery decided not to let the YO know that she was staying permanently, so I'm sharing a stable (which I'll probably rant about eventually on here) and the. Another stable. We get cold water & electric, a tack room and access to a hay shed. That's all. Yet I hear my fellow liveries complaining - how they wish we had a ménage, how they think it should be cheaper. It shocks me - and I'd be happy to pay a little more for what we get - not that I could afford it really, which is why I do DIY.

There is another yard in my village, that offers Part and Full, a ménage and all those great things. However - the YO decides which horse goes where, every horse must come in each night, the turnout is tiny, and then if your new you have to have an assistant come up the yard with you for the first 3 months!! Plus it's about £250 a week, YM is rude and unapproachable anyway. If it was a good deal and the liveries where nice it would be fine. I think that ive got it pretty cushy on my yard.

I think that if they're moaning about paying £1.50 for picking out hooves - they are ridiculous, I say do it yourself then. I think that's a deal but that's just me.


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## Shooting Star (1 August 2016)

I'm sorry it's come to this for you OP, I'm always amazed at how low people expect to get livery cover for and if people are putting their trust in you to look after their beloved beasts then the least that they can do is expect to pay at a level that allows you to make a living 

I'm in Surrey where we have high costs any way but there are two yards locally I know of that offer 7 day part livery (hay, bedding, feed, turn out, bring in and full muck out) for under £350 a month - I cannot see how they can ever be expected to make a living at that level and often wonder how they actually manage to break even.

At the other end of the spectrum there is the £1200-1400 per month livery and I just do not know how anybody can possibly afford that either! 

Most are around the £600-£700 mark which I guess just about works if the YO actually owns the land but if they're renting too then that's also not enough.

I hope you can manage to find a new job / career that you enjoy and that allows you a better income too x


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## Roasted Chestnuts (1 August 2016)

Shame about your decision OP but you have to do what's best for you and love the life you want. Here in central belt Scotland I am £160 4weekly to keep my horse, that's livery, hay, feed etc. In summer I am £72 4 weekly as I have no hay/bedding to buy and I don't pay the turnout fee and reduced livery as he is out 24/7 from April/May to Nov. I pay about £60 per year for trims for my horse, he is uninsured due to old age. 

I am DIY on a very small yard (max 10 horses) with all year turnout, great hacking but no school/menage. Doesn't bother me as there are plenty of rental facilities around us. I personally couldn't keep at horse at livery for £350pm that's my rent for my flat Pm.  I kept two horses for under £350 pm a few years ago. My yard makes its own hay and locally buys straw straight off the field and buys shavings by the pallet at discount due to selling local feed store hay. 

I understand YOs need to make a living and it sounds as though having a horse whilst living in England Would be something I would baulk at personally if that is the going rate. England does seem to have an issue with grazing and land availability, I do find it quite coincidental that up here the yards with the most expensive livery seem to be those with the least amount of turnout but the most facilities. Seems to be the same in England going by most people's posts about yards and yard hunting south of the border.


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## LynH (1 August 2016)

I'm always amazed that grass livery is cheaper than diy esp in the South East. Land is so expensive and you need about 2-3 times as much per horse so the cost for grass only should be higher. 
I'm often asked if I will do livery, which I won't, one lady who was pretty pushy asked if I did do it what would I charge. When I said £300pm she got quite stroppy, even when I pointed out how much it would cost me to provide it inc facilities. The insurance only is £50pm. It is frustrating that people run places without proper insurance or taking a proper wage as it makes it harder for others. 
The nearest full livery yard to me charges £1278pm and most others charge £650-700 for part livery.


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## AdorableAlice (1 August 2016)

Disillusioned said:



			But running a decent yard properly is a full time job - how am I meant to find the time and energy to earn another income? And why should I have to accept only earning "pocket money" when so many other people earn enough to be able to afford to have horses on livery?

And I don't currently have my own horse - I cannot afford to have a box permanently non-earning.
		
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Exactly.  You have worked long and hard to ensure the horses in your care are looked after.  I may be wrong and I hope I am, but I would think there has been no opportunity to earn enough to fund a private pension or any other form of 'old age/rainy day' pot.

The people who are earning enough to have their horses on livery will be in employment that provides the pension, the flexi hours, the sick pay etc etc that enables them to pay for livery - but many will still want the services for peanuts.

it is not something we might think about when we are fit and able enough to put in 15 hour days seven days a week doing horses but as age creeps in and the body starts to find the work harder the reality becomes apparent.  OP, I hope you are able to enjoy doing something else after closing your yard.


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## mytwofriends (1 August 2016)

What a great post, OP. Hopefully it'll alert people to what conscientious YO's do for them and their precious horses and they'll think twice about whinging.

I saw the thread you mentioned about £1.50 for picking out hooves and how it was an unskilled task. To do it properly (as you described) takes quite a few minutes, and that's with a mannerly horse. One on our yard is a brute and enjoys resting his whole body weight on you - that's if he'll pick his feet up at all - and he has such long feathers you have to wrestle those separately to even see his soles. Takes a full 5 minutes minimum. It's back breaking too.

Anyway, I digress. Everything you've outlined is so true. Have a regular Joe (no offence intended to anyone called Joe!) run a yard for just a week, dealing with prissy or totally hands-off owners (both as bad as each other in my opinion), working in all weathers, dealing with less than perfect horses, not covering their expenses or having a life, and see how they like it.

OP, your decision is sad, but totally understandable. Your liveries will be devastated but you'll have a massive weight off your shoulders. A roll reversal. How nice for a change! 

Good luck with your new life, and make sure you enjoy it!


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## Flora (1 August 2016)

Totally agree with you!  I have a small yard with decent size indoor school, all year round turnout and decent hacking.  I had a girl come last WK to view the yard which she liked very much, especially the stables as they are quite big. After moaning about the yard she is on and how you can't ride in the school and grazing is rubbish,  she then turned round and said , oh you work out £10 more a WK for haylage. Well stay at the crappy yard you are on instead of wasting my time when you were told the prices previously before you came.
I find that people are trying to find the cheapest yard with all the facilities for next to nothing .
I have a very posh centre near me who charge a fortune and the horses are looked after by numpties. My daughter kept her 18.1hh horse there for a while and was paying £600 a month for full livery for her horse to be kept in a 10 x 10 stable, no turn out and she still had to go up each day as he never had water, enough bedding or haylage. She lasted a few months but they are always full! It seems people will pay to say they have their horse at this place when they don't have clue rather than have a yard owner like op that goes out there way to have happy,well cared for horses.
I have also found that while doing livery, I have never found as many rude and ignorant people in the horsey world.  When I get an enquiry about livery, I spend a while emailing prices and answering any questions, then take time out to show people the yard and they don't even have the decency to send a text to say thanks but no thanks!
Good luck op in what you choose to do next and I might not be far behind you!


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## Flora (1 August 2016)

Loops posted twice!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (1 August 2016)

OP, I totally understand you pulling out.
I have my own yard (so no rents etc). 

Back in 1990 I was charging £25pw for DIY - had own stable, storage area and own paddock, or in with mine (their choice). 
£65 pw for (what was then) full livery in week from Mon - Fri, and me feeding and turning out at weekends (inc bedding, hay & basic feed), with owners doing the rest of chores over weekend.

Rock on 26 yrs later, and livery is virtually the same cost for same benefit! 
People want to own, but are not realistic about costs. 
I would make a loss on anything coming in at that price now (water and muck heap charges, plus harrowing, rolling, and field maintenance/repairs).

I have only 2 now on my yard (both mine) and 4-5 empty stables, I only occasionally take 'emergency' livieries for a short set time, or have those for turn away summer grazing for a few weeks only.

Good luck in what you decide to do in the future x


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## zaminda (1 August 2016)

I'm not surprised. Its sad but people who own horses seem to think that people who work with them should do it for love. I do mine for love, and want cold hard cash to do other peoples. As to if horsey staff should be entitled to earn more than minimum wage, well its dangerous and hard work, so yes we should earn more than a postie, who gets rather more than minimum wage, good holidays and sick pay. Funnily enough, freelancing is quite well paid. People who own their own but either rent a yard, or own their own are rather more realistic as to what it costs!


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## pixie (1 August 2016)

Yes, and then you get told that your smart, airy, newly built yard is "too expensive" for charging £5 more per week than local yard with old, falling apart stables and poor grazing management. You get complained at because your homegrown meadow hay is more expensive than the ragworty bales of hay that killed one of their horses. Horsey people are bloody cheap :/


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## JillA (1 August 2016)

Couldn't agree more - if you are trying to make a living and cover rent as well it must be all but impossible. I have a few friends' horses at mine, to help with costs, but they never recognise the cost of maintaining a property - I have just spent almost £5k resurfacing the yard and drive and having land drains installed, due to the pressure from extra vehicles coming and going and extra hooves poaching gateways. Not to mention repairs to buildings, replacing consumables and paying for water and electricity.
Sadly though the knock on effect of horse owners having to pay a realistic amount will be a further depression in the value of horses, and more horses being neglected by those who bought because keeping them seemed to be cheap as chips. Good luck in whatever you choose to do instead.


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## Goldenstar (1 August 2016)

JillA said:



			Couldn't agree more - if you are trying to make a living and cover rent as well it must be all but impossible. I have a few friends' horses at mine, to help with costs, but they never recognise the cost of maintaining a property - I have just spent almost £5k resurfacing the yard and drive and having land drains installed, due to the pressure from extra vehicles coming and going and extra hooves poaching gateways. Not to mention repairs to buildings, replacing consumables and paying for water and electricity.
Sadly though the knock on effect of horse owners having to pay a realistic amount will be a further depression in the value of horses, and more horses being neglected by those who bought because keeping them seemed to be cheap as chips. Good luck in whatever you choose to do instead.
		
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Your right .
I think over the next decade or so we could be heading to a too many horse welfare night mare .
Everywhere I look land near towns and villages is being built on and the small parcels of land that are run as liverys are perfect for this .
many people are paying to little for livery for it to be of a good standard and have no grasp of the economics of land value but it's a reality that going to hit livery hard in the next ten years.
If we ever get round to licensing the provision of horse care ( which will include DIY provisions as well) there's going to masses of homeless horses as it will hasten the contraction in the number of yards particularly the small ones , which sadly often are the nicest for the horses .


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## Goldenstar (1 August 2016)

JillA said:



			Couldn't agree more - if you are trying to make a living and cover rent as well it must be all but impossible. I have a few friends' horses at mine, to help with costs, but they never recognise the cost of maintaining a property - I have just spent almost £5k resurfacing the yard and drive and having land drains installed, due to the pressure from extra vehicles coming and going and extra hooves poaching gateways. Not to mention repairs to buildings, replacing consumables and paying for water and electricity.
Sadly though the knock on effect of horse owners having to pay a realistic amount will be a further depression in the value of horses, and more horses being neglected by those who bought because keeping them seemed to be cheap as chips. Good luck in whatever you choose to do instead.
		
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Your right .
I think over the next decade or so we could be heading to a too many horse welfare night mare .
Everywhere I look land near towns and villages is being built on and the small parcels of land that are run as liverys are perfect for this .
many people are paying to little for livery for it to be of a good standard and have no grasp of the economics of land value but it's a reality that going to hit livery hard in the next ten years.
If we ever get round to licensing the provision of horse care ( which will include DIY provisions as well) there's going to masses of homeless horses as it will hasten the contraction in the number of yards particularly the small ones , which sadly often are the nicest for the horses .


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## stormox (1 August 2016)

On that original post about charges and £1.50 to pick out feet, there was  only a few of us who  stood up and said the charges were fair. We were well outnumbered! I see theyve all gone quiet now on this post. WELL SAID, and hopefully theyve got  the point now - no YO should be working for peanuts and it is a skilled job and a big responsibility.


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## fatpiggy (1 August 2016)

Hello OP. I'm not surprised that you are chucking it in.  I'm the person who costed out the job of picking out hooves, but I have mitigation!  You and I know that a good person does a proper job of checking the legs and hooves as part of the task, but so many yards have gofers, usually kids, who get left with these muddy jobs and wouldn't know a splint or a burst coronet band if it jumped up and bit them.  Many YOs are not experienced horse owners themselves and picking out hooves to them, would be just that and nothing else. I once asked a fellow livery to bring my horse in with hers as I was going to be delayed after work - she did - but failed to tell me that my horse was ten tenths lame on one leg.  Say my boss asks me to extend the appointment of one of our staff.  That involves me checking the duration of the funding, that there is sufficient funding to do what I want so that means doing a cost projection, produce the required form,then I have to stick it all on our internal HR system, then transfer the request to HRs system.  Once the contract is extended I have to save a copy of the appointment letter to the appropriate file.  Now that is just one very small part of my job.  I deal in hundreds of thousands of pounds, often millions of pounds, and peoples' careers and pay packets rely on me.  I have a degree and 30 years experience but I earn no-where near even £20 an hour.

I always did my horse DIY even if it meant incredibly long days and huge petrol bills.  But I completely agree that many horse-owners are absolute cheap-skates alot of the time.  I'm all in favour of not wasting money, but so many people have horses that basically they cannot afford and hence they are happy to keep them in rubbish, falling down yards and rely on the free advice of other owners and people on internet sites rather than paying someone who really knows what they are doing.  Hence so many horses are reported as being in a sorry state, or simply abandoned.  Another poster has stated that horse owning will return to times when only the rich and farmers daughters (!) could do it.  Sometimes I think that wouldn't be a bad thing from the horses point of view.

Good luck with your future plans.  I hope the liveries don't give you a hard time when they find out.


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## ribbons (1 August 2016)

Been there, done that, never again.
Our yard houses nothing but my own horses anymore. This means several lovely boxes standing empty, grazing acres cut for hay and sheep pasture. I will never have liveries again. 
A tiny fraction of people actually appreciate the use of someone else's facilities without the cost and responsibility of what is involved. Most think that their 25/30 quid a week is not only outrageous but entitles them to treat the place as if they owned it.

I remember a thread on here a while back when some people thought it was there right to turn up at 11pm to pat their horse. After all, they paid their rent !!!!
There are so many reasons why I believe livery prices should be double or treble what they are now. 
As OP outlined, the actual cost of providing the facilities and earning a decent living is one consideration.
Another, that I feel strongly about, is the amount of numpties that own a horse on a shoestring. We have lost the majority of good riding schools that existed years ago. Fantastic places to learn how to ride and how to care for a horse. 
Sadly with huge rises in their running costs and so many novices finding they can buy a horse, rent a stable and a bit of land for peanuts (and still moan about it) the riding schools have all but disappeared.
The result is dreadful husbandry, and horses suffering in their droves. 
I remember two  DIY liveries, one thought 20 mins walk and trot in school twice a week was a horse 'in work' and fed accordingly, and had a horse that was so huge it couldn't actually manage trot for more than one lap of the school.
The other, constantly criticising the first, left the yard at 5pm leaving her horse with enough hay for barely an hour. The horse then stood for 15 hours with nothing until she returned at 9am.

If the majority of horse owners today had spent at least 5 or 6 years riding and caring for horses under the watchful eye of the type of riding schools we had years ago, they would realise that you can't keep a horse on a shoestring, they cost pots of money and hours of time. If done properly, and more importantly, they take knowledge, which is rarely gained by someone struggling with an unsuitable horse, on DIY livery, with limited time and limited funds, who decided it was cheaper than paying for riding lessons, and much more prestigious and ego boosting. "I own my own horse/s"
Well,  many many many of them shouldn't, and cheap livery is one of the causes.


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## Goldenstar (1 August 2016)

ribbons said:



			Been there, done that, never again.
Our yard houses nothing but my own horses anymore. This means several lovely boxes standing empty, grazing acres cut for hay and sheep pasture. I will never have liveries again. 
A tiny fraction of people actually appreciate the use of someone else's facilities without the cost and responsibility of what is involved. Most think that their 25/30 quid a week is not only outrageous but entitles them to treat the place as if they owned it.

I remember a thread on here a while back when some people thought it was there right to turn up at 11pm to pat their horse. After all, they paid their rent !!!!
There are so many reasons why I believe livery prices should be double or treble what they are now. 
As OP outlined, the actual cost of providing the facilities and earning a decent living is one consideration.
Another, that I feel strongly about, is the amount of numpties that own a horse on a shoestring. We have lost the majority of good riding schools that existed years ago. Fantastic places to learn how to ride and how to care for a horse. 
Sadly with huge rises in their running costs and so many novices finding they can buy a horse, rent a stable and a bit of land for peanuts (and still moan about it) the riding schools have all but disappeared.
The result is dreadful husbandry, and horses suffering in their droves. 
I remember two  DIY liveries, one thought 20 mins walk and trot in school twice a week was a horse 'in work' and fed accordingly, and had a horse that was so huge it couldn't actually manage trot for more than one lap of the school.
The other, constantly criticising the first, left the yard at 5pm leaving her horse with enough hay for barely an hour. The horse then stood for 15 hours with nothing until she returned at 9am.

If the majority of horse owners today had spent at least 5 or 6 years riding and caring for horses under the watchful eye of the type of riding schools we had years ago, they would realise that you can't keep a horse on a shoestring, they cost pots of money and hours of time. If done properly, and more importantly, they take knowledge, which is rarely gained by someone struggling with an unsuitable horse, on DIY livery, with limited time and limited funds, who decided it was cheaper than paying for riding lessons, and much more prestigious and ego boosting. "I own my own horse/s"
Well,  many many many of them shouldn't, and cheap livery is one of the causes.
		
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Blunt but true .
No body thinks you have a 'right ' to own a speed boat but it's very frowned upon to say to many people have horses who can't afford to pay a realistic amount to look after them .
And if the speed boat goes wrong and you are skint you just park it up until you can afford to fit it you can't do that with a horse .


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## ROMANY 1959 (1 August 2016)

To put it into pespection. I had to put my 2 dogs into kennels for 15 days recently after my mum broke her arm and could not look after them while we were on holiday.. That cost me £28-50 a day per dog so that's £28.50 X 30 = £855 !! 
And that's for two spaniels who did not get walked, just had two play times in a doggy area with a career twice a day.. So yes livery is cheep compared to other animal services, and I fully appreciated my YO when I had a horse on livery..


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## Clodagh (1 August 2016)

A friend of mine has a yard and she is now so broke she is struggling to have her own horse! All so she can make sure other people can afford theirs. Totally bizarre, but she says she daren't put her livery up any more (£125 a week full (no exercise) livery with all year turn out. Hay has gone up from £3 a bale to currently £5, although that may have dropped now there is a new cut.


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## rachk89 (1 August 2016)

Haz:) said:



			Sorry to hear about this OP. You seem very genuine - and have many qualities you want in a YO!!

I can't afford anything other than DIY. My yard only offers that - it's £15 a week (I have 2 horses and a mini which is £5). I pay to have 0.5 acre, 2 stables - although a livery decided not to let the YO know that she was staying permanently, so I'm sharing a stable (which I'll probably rant about eventually on here) and the. Another stable. We get cold water & electric, a tack room and access to a hay shed. That's all. Yet I hear my fellow liveries complaining - how they wish we had a ménage, how they think it should be cheaper. It shocks me - and I'd be happy to pay a little more for what we get - not that I could afford it really, which is why I do DIY.
		
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They complain about £15 a week?! What stingy bloody gits they are. What the hell would they say about a vet bill?

Sorry OP about what has happened to you. I know a few people at my yard complain about the prices I just don't care. I get my bill and pay it don't even question it. My attitude to money is bad considering I don't have much of it haha. Anything the horse needs I just pay up. Don't really care about price.


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## touchstone (1 August 2016)

I agree with ribbons, owning horses has become accessible to people that really shouldn't have them, I've seen more issues with overhorsed owners and neglected horses over the past decade than over my lifetime.

I also think that times are changing and ownership will become restricted to the privileged few which will hopefully be to the benefit of those horses that have a good home.  Alternatively it might end up with more barbed wire allotment type enclosures by those who selfishly think it is their right to own at any cost, at the horses expense.

So much of the land is being built on now that even hacking out is less of a pleasure, I think it would be miserable keeping a horse in an urban environment where work is confined to a school or roads and housing estates.

Horses are expensive large animals that need commitment in money, time and a suitable environment to keep them in.  If that isn't doable then people should be sensible enough to think long and hard before buying.


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## Red-1 (1 August 2016)

I am sorry OP that you are having to give up, when you so obviously could love the job.

We ended up buying our own place, due to the rubbish service at livery yards. As you say, many do not have skilled staff, and try to pile them in to make money.

I would have actually paid more to have my horse in a proper yard, where the fencing and grazing was good, where people handled the horse properly (as in actually paid attention to pressure and release rather than just pulling them to the field on the end of a rope), the atmosphere was great (as in quiet, helpful and no stealing of supplements), to name a few requirements, but no, it was not possible. 

In my own place we have done great. The hoof pick stays where I left it, the place is swept and tidy. I know a while back people were asking what others would pay to have a horse brought in, and I was shouted down as I was very happy to pay £5 for someone to fetch in, change rug and pick feet. She literally passed the gate, so it was not travelling time, but to me £5 was a bargain to know that my horse was being attended to properly. 

Saved me driving home half way through the day 

There are some people out there who would pat more, but how to find them I don't know.

Good luck for the future, and I hope you go back to enjoying a horse of your own.


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## WeeLassie (1 August 2016)

I defended the charges of £1.50 to pick out feet, etc and was very sarcastically replied to!! I wouldnt mind betting that a lot of the livery owners who complain about charges think nothing of buying the latest blingy browband, or matchy matchy ear covers and numnah.
It seems horse owners are a bit mixed up in their priorities at times.


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## WeeLassie (1 August 2016)

I defended the charges of £1.50 to pick out feet, etc and was very sarcastically replied to!! I wouldnt mind betting that a lot of the livery owners who complain about charges think nothing of buying the latest blingy browband, or matchy matchy ear covers and numnah.
It seems horse owners are a bit mixed up in their priorities at times.


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## Stockers (1 August 2016)

Insightful post OP and I'm sorry you are having to give up.  I hope you can move onto something else.

I am often amazed that in my part of the country (crowded south-east) people still expect to get DIY livery for £25 per week.  I am on part livery at £110 per week (soon to go up to £120 pwe week) including hay and bedding (rubber mats - pellet bed) but no feed.

I think that is very reasonable - I am a livery at a private house though and YO has no staff costs.  I have been on a yard costing up to £525 per month - ten years ago.  That yard now charges £650 per month.  If I had to I could pay that - I am fortunate.

I have just heard of a lage 40+ mixed service yard closing near me - a number have done so in the last 3 years.  Usually land sold for developement.  

People need a wake-up call - if they don;t value and pay approppriately for livery more yards are only going to close and if you cannot realitically afford horses don't have them. 

I see the glut of unwanted horses increasingly dramatically over the next ten years.  the conseqences don;t bear thinking about.


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## Stockers (1 August 2016)

Insightful post OP and I'm sorry you are having to give up.  I hope you can move onto something else.

I am often amazed that in my part of the country (crowded south-east) people still expect to get DIY livery for £25 per week.  I am on part livery at £110 per week (soon to go up to £120 pwe week) including hay and bedding (rubber mats - pellet bed) but no feed.

I think that is very reasonable - I am a livery at a private house though and YO has no staff costs.  I have been on a yard costing up to £525 per month - ten years ago.  That yard now charges £650 per month.  If I had to I could pay that - I am fortunate.

I have just heard of a lage 40+ mixed service yard closing near me - a number have done so in the last 3 years.  Usually land sold for developement.  

People need a wake-up call - if they don;t value and pay approppriately for livery more yards are only going to close and if you cannot realitically afford horses don't have them. 

I see the glut of unwanted horses increasingly dramatically over the next ten years.  the conseqences don;t bear thinking about.


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## HaffiesRock (1 August 2016)

Having read all the thread, I want to comment as I would have been one of those who moaned about a £1.50 charge for hoof picking. Not any more!

I used to keep both my ponies on a DIY yard, that was quite frankly, unsafe and awful. I had a stable that I never used as it was creaky and leaked, my own paddock that totalled no more than 3/4 of an acre, it was riddled with ragwort, had no grass in it and the fencing was so poor that I paid for and installed my own electric fence. I was having to feed hay everyday throughout the whole year at an extortionate cost. Their was a "school" that was basically a 10 x 30 patch that had sand dumped on it and the hacking was rubbish. I eventually moved to my own field as the YO had no clue about horses and I genuinely feared for their safely and wellbeing. This cost me £20 a week for 2 ponies. 

I then spent 18 months in my own field and I hated it. I could not keep up with all the poo picking, ragworting, fencing maintenance, never mind the rolling, harrowing etc. I had tto much land for my two so made hay off half the first year. The second year I got a sharer in hoping the extra money and pair of hands would make it worth my while. It wasn't. The money did help but the sharer didn't pull her weight so I literally spend every second up there maintain and never rode. 

Come March this year I had had enough. I made the decision to put my mare out on loan and put my gelding in livery. I chose a local yard, that I had always passed off as far too expensive. I had been on there years before, but I had a sharer then so the cost was fine. I used to think that the cost was so much as they owned the land outright so they must be making a fortune! 

I bit the bullet and moved there and it was the best decision ever. The fact it now costs me almost double a month to keep one there than it did to keep two on my own field is not a problem. The yard is safe, I don't have to poo pick, the grazing is immaculate, hay and straw is included and I can literally spend all my time up there with my horse! The staff are brilliant and I would never begrudge them the £2.20 turnout charge which includes chucking a bucket over the door, hoof pick and rug change then a quite long walk to the field. I wouldn't think twice about paying £6 for a full muck out.  I do not begrudge the £200 odd DIY livery charge as I do not have to do anything but enjoy my horse and muck out a stable. The fields are cared for, hay and straw are right there ready to be used, the muck trailer is emptied daily, I have a floodlit school, lunge pen, xc course, off road hacking and staff on hand until 10pm at night.

I now completely understand why good livery yards cost what they do and the sheer effort that goes into maintaining facilities to be safe. I would never take on my own land again unless it was at home as I just couldn't do it. 

So to all the livery owners, managers out there, I salute you for the mammoth job you do and I will never begrudge you the cost of keeping my pride and joy safe and healthy ever again.


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## Chloeap (1 August 2016)

I pay £44 a week for DIY inc weekday morning turnouts. Turnout is £3 a day which includes feet pick out and rug change - I am fine with this but do not feel they get the attention that you describe. I'm not convinced they actually are picking out feet at the moment. I love the yard I'm at - facilities are amazing, lovely yard owners and nice liveries. but I feel the care isn't the best - when I go away for the weekend the stable is a mess when I get back and not sure they check the horses as well as you do.


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## skint1 (1 August 2016)

People need a wake-up call - if they don;t value and pay approppriately for livery more yards are only going to close and if you cannot realitically afford horses don't have them. 

I see the glut of unwanted horses increasingly dramatically over the next ten years.  the conseqences don;t bear thinking about.
		
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It's catch-22  really,  as pressure on land in some parts of country continues to grow, the cost of keeping horses will of course have to follow and you will see livery yards shutting because the YM/YO won't be able to make them pay and the owners won't be able to afford it if they wanted to. 

 It won't be because horse owners are tight fisted and don't want to pay the going rate, or that they don't value the livery yard and services offered or  that they expect others to subsidise their hobby they just simply with the best will in the world will not be able to afford to keep a horse anymore. 

I'm sorry for the OP, I hope things work out for you in the future. I am sure your owners will understand, it's not personal, it's economics and the times we live in.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (1 August 2016)

So sorry OP that you feel unable to continue.

I only have space for the one DIY livery, and we live on site, so don't have a lot of the issues that other YM's have to cope with. 

Would agree about the hidden costs as well, people just don't realise how much needs to be spent - and how much physical effort takes place - into keeping a yard safe and functioning. Everyone on here seem all too ready to jump in and criticise when they feel things aren't to their satisfaction, totally ignoring the fact that there ARE some YO's out there who are doing a fantastic job and working damn hard. No-one would run a business at a loss, or go to work and as well as getting nothing be asked to put money in as well!! But this is what some YO's are having to do.

Shame on all of you on here that have criticised, bitched, moaned, and been ungrateful at this yard. Now you'll have to find somewhere else - and serve you right basically! You have had it good, now you're gonna be cast off to find somewhere else. Let it be a lesson.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (1 August 2016)

So sorry OP that you feel unable to continue.

I only have space for the one DIY livery, and we live on site, so don't have a lot of the issues that other YM's have to cope with. 

Would agree about the hidden costs as well, people just don't realise how much needs to be spent - and how much physical effort takes place - into keeping a yard safe and functioning. Everyone on here seem all too ready to jump in and criticise when they feel things aren't to their satisfaction, totally ignoring the fact that there ARE some YO's out there who are doing a fantastic job and working damn hard. No-one would run a business at a loss, or go to work and as well as getting nothing be asked to put money in as well!! But this is what some YO's are having to do.

Shame on all of you on here that have criticised, bitched, moaned, and been ungrateful at this yard. Now you'll have to find somewhere else - and serve you right basically! You have had it good, now you're gonna be cast off to find somewhere else. Let it be a lesson.


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## LouisCat (1 August 2016)

I'm very sorry to read this but I can completely understand why giving up is probably the best option.

I don't own a horse simply because I can not afford the livery etc. That's not because I begrudge the charges, I just don't earn enough!!
However, I feel I'm realistic enough to understand my financial position and not try and sponge off others or be unable to pay a big vet bill if something happened...


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## Merrymoles (1 August 2016)

Um, I am one of those people who keeps a horse on a shoestring budget, of which more in a minute...

However, I sympathise entirely with the OP's decision. Having worked with horses in my youth, I took the decision to get a "proper" job as I knew there was no way I would be able to ever buy a house etc on the wages I received. I would have much rather continued with horses but, even 30 years ago, it just wasn't economically viable for me - and the majority of horses were then owned by "rich" people or businesses. I don't think £1.50 is too much for picking out feet - I'd want at least that for doing it - but my personal circumstances would not allow another tenner a week on my bill.

I am not a cheapskate. I am self employed and my income is variable. My livery is due today and is going to be late as my July tax bill has completely cleaned out my coffers until the money I am owed starts to arrive. I have discussed this with my YO who is completely relaxed about when I pay and knows it will be paid in full as soon as the money comes in.

I knew that owning a horse was going to be hard financially so, when I was buying, I purposely looked for a "cheap to keep" type and that has worked out. His two vet bills this month will be covered when due but those are, touch wood, few and far between. I knew, also, that I could only afford DIY and no services and that, too, has worked out, with a great relationship with the livery who shares my field. 

Should I have bought a horse in the first place? Well, it was the one thing in life I had always wanted. I'd had a lifetime of riding other people's and had had my old boy on loan for 16 years, until we lost him. I felt I had the knowledge to decide what I needed and how to keep it, I didn't have great expectations of being able to jump round Badminton, and I was prepared to compromise on other aspects of my life (like sleep!).

Frankly, I have months where I could afford full livery and months like this one where I can't afford to feed the family, let alone have any luxuries. When I do have good months, the money goes into the pot for vet's bills, rug cleaning or repairing, tack replacement or anything else that might be needed. At the moment (when it comes in) it will be set aside for diesel as my trips to the yard are about to go from 18 miles every day to about 100, thanks to expected roadworks. I also have a support network that means if I were ill or injured, I know my friends would ensure my horse's well being, and I have a hard-to-reach savings pot that will go with him to a friend if he out-lives me.

So, you could say that I am a cheapskate and one of the people who should not have a horse as they don't have the correct finances. However, he is my joy and my sanity and I value my yard, and YO, hugely as they are what enables it to happen. I may not be able to cough up in money terms but I am always happy to volunteer for fencing, muck shifting, helping with YO's horses and other animals and whatever needs doing that is within my capabilities.


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## planete (1 August 2016)

I am sorry you are giving up too but can fully understand it.  Some years ago I had the opportunity to buy the lease of an ongoing livery business.  I had a careful look at the books, both official and unofficial, and regretfully concluded that the only side of the business that was viable was the bed and breakfast attached to the dwelling.  It was in effect subsidising the livery side.  As providing bed and breakfast all year round for seasonal workers was not my ambition I regretfully walked away from what should have been a dream job I would have loved much more than my 9-5 accounting desk bound one.


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## Frumpoon (1 August 2016)

OP where in the country are you?


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## pixie (1 August 2016)

I've certainly found that the best liveries are ones who have had their own land in the past.  They never quibble about costs and always keep up with jobs like poo picking without complaining or needing reminding.


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## Mince Pie (1 August 2016)

ROMANY 1959 said:



			To put it into pespection. I had to put my 2 dogs into kennels for 15 days recently after my mum broke her arm and could not look after them while we were on holiday.. That cost me £28-50 a day per dog so that's £28.50 X 30 = £855 !! 
And that's for two spaniels who did not get walked, just had two play times in a doggy area with a career twice a day.. So yes livery is cheep compared to other animal services, and I fully appreciated my YO when I had a horse on livery..
		
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Off topic but wow, that's expensive! I pay £35 per day for 3 dogs (collie and 2 JRTs) to be home boarded and they get walked at least twice a day.



Goldenstar said:



			Your right .
I think over the next decade or so we could be heading to a too many horse welfare night mare .
		
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We're already there


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## Pilatesclare (1 August 2016)

Sorry to hear you've had enough op.

I am in the south East and prices here are very different to those mentioned in this (and the other) thread. Part livery is £650+ and full is £800+ (the most expensive full livery yard near me is £1100). Schooling livery is £300+ per week. 

I am on a DIY yard and pay  £150 per month. There are no services. This suits me fine, the facilities are great and I don't need services.

I am on Diy as I fortunately have the time to do him myself and I like to. I can be as fussy as I want with his bed, feed, etc. I can afford part livery but I don't want someone else to do him for me.

I do think there is a bit of a stigma attached to Diy livery which is sad. There are some awful Diy yards around hete that I wouldn't let my horse step foot on. I think he is entitled to a nice yard with facilities as much as the next horse IF we are willing to pay for it.

Having looked at part and full livery and I have friends on these yards, the staff care imo is below par. Certainly not the care taken by many YO'S who have commented here. So paying top price doesn't ensure good service and that is also a problem.

I think all who have commented should up your prices considerably!


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## stencilface (1 August 2016)

If my parents hadn't bought land when my nana died nearly 30 years ago there is no way I could afford to keep a horse, not a chance.  I'm in awe of anyone that does it tbh!!

We pay £15 a day for someone to check ours twice a day when we go away, and even though it is only to check they have a pulse and four legs visit I now feel like she's underpaid!


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## wingedhorse (1 August 2016)

ribbons said:



			Been there, done that, never again.
I remember a thread on here a while back when some people thought it was there right to turn up at 11pm to pat their horse. After all, they paid their rent !!!!
There are so many reasons why I believe livery prices should be double or treble what they are now. 
QUOTE]

It depends on the yard rules, and expectations. I keep my horse on a small holding, I drive vaguely past the yard owners house to arrive.

Yard owner said when I looked round arrive and leaving at any time was fine. My husband said - I would be there at 5am, and there at 10pm at times. They said was no problem.
I am rarely there before 5.45am, and rarely there after 9pm, but they genuinely don't mind.

I can totally see why someone else, with their own yard routine, and yard next to house might mind.

But key is to set clear yard rules up front, and share them with liveries, so they can decide if yard rules work for them.

I looked round a yard that closed at 7pm, and didn't move there!
		
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## wingedhorse (1 August 2016)

moleskinsmum said:



			Um, I am one of those people who keeps a horse on a shoestring budget, of which more in a minute...

However, I sympathise entirely with the OP's decision. Having worked with horses in my youth, I took the decision to get a "proper" job as I knew there was no way I would be able to ever buy a house etc on the wages I received. I would have much rather continued with horses but, even 30 years ago, it just wasn't economically viable for me - and the majority of horses were then owned by "rich" people or businesses. I don't think £1.50 is too much for picking out feet - I'd want at least that for doing it - but my personal circumstances would not allow another tenner a week on my bill.

I am not a cheapskate. I am self employed and my income is variable. My livery is due today and is going to be late as my July tax bill has completely cleaned out my coffers until the money I am owed starts to arrive. I have discussed this with my YO who is completely relaxed about when I pay and knows it will be paid in full as soon as the money comes in.

I knew that owning a horse was going to be hard financially so, when I was buying, I purposely looked for a "cheap to keep" type and that has worked out. His two vet bills this month will be covered when due but those are, touch wood, few and far between. I knew, also, that I could only afford DIY and no services and that, too, has worked out, with a great relationship with the livery who shares my field. 

Should I have bought a horse in the first place? Well, it was the one thing in life I had always wanted. I'd had a lifetime of riding other people's and had had my old boy on loan for 16 years, until we lost him. I felt I had the knowledge to decide what I needed and how to keep it, I didn't have great expectations of being able to jump round Badminton, and I was prepared to compromise on other aspects of my life (like sleep!).

Frankly, I have months where I could afford full livery and months like this one where I can't afford to feed the family, let alone have any luxuries. When I do have good months, the money goes into the pot for vet's bills, rug cleaning or repairing, tack replacement or anything else that might be needed. At the moment (when it comes in) it will be set aside for diesel as my trips to the yard are about to go from 18 miles every day to about 100, thanks to expected roadworks. I also have a support network that means if I were ill or injured, I know my friends would ensure my horse's well being, and I have a hard-to-reach savings pot that will go with him to a friend if he out-lives me.

So, you could say that I am a cheapskate and one of the people who should not have a horse as they don't have the correct finances. However, he is my joy and my sanity and I value my yard, and YO, hugely as they are what enables it to happen. I may not be able to cough up in money terms but I am always happy to volunteer for fencing, muck shifting, helping with YO's horses and other animals and whatever needs doing that is within my capabilities.
		
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Yep with you on both counts.


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## Auslander (1 August 2016)

It's so sad to read posts like this - but coming at it from the perspective of a yard owner, I can totally understand it. I had cheap and cheerful grass liveries for several years, just maing enough to cover my field rent, while I worked full time elsewhere. Last year I was offered the opportunity to take on a small acreage, with two schools, all weather turnout pens, and lovely hacking, which came with a house. I jumped at the chance, but it was very clear that I needed to revise my offering, as I had limited acreage. I opted for offering full grass livery to a limited number of horses, and being very picky about who I took on. I'm not cheap, and I've had many snarky comments from people who are looking for grass livery about how much I charge. I explain every time that the owners are not just paying for their horses to graze my land. They are paying for peace of mind. I keep a careful eye on condition, health, herd dynamics, etc. I am there for the vet, farrier, dentist, physio, and report back to the owner when needed. My owners don't have check their horses twice a day, or take time off for visiting professionals. They can go on holiday without worrying, and they can keep an eye on the antics of their horses via Facebook, while I'm out there wrangling naughty horses, repairing fences, splitting up scrappers - mostly at 11pm, when I really want to be in bed! I think the most important thing that my liveries are paying for (and the current bunch totally get this) is 35 years worth of experience. 
I have a block of stables going up, and I'm just about to expand operations a bit to include box rest/rehab/fat camp liveries. I'm going to be just as picky as I was when I started off here.


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## Goldenstar (1 August 2016)

Auslander said:



			It's so sad to read posts like this - but coming at it from the perspective of a yard owner, I can totally understand it. I had cheap and cheerful grass liveries for several years, just maing enough to cover my field rent, while I worked full time elsewhere. Last year I was offered the opportunity to take on a small acreage, with two schools, all weather turnout pens, and lovely hacking, which came with a house. I jumped at the chance, but it was very clear that I needed to revise my offering, as I had limited acreage. I opted for offering full grass livery to a limited number of horses, and being very picky about who I took on. I'm not cheap, and I've had many snarky comments from people who are looking for grass livery about how much I charge. I explain every time that the owners are not just paying for their horses to graze my land. They are paying for peace of mind. I keep a careful eye on condition, health, herd dynamics, etc. I am there for the vet, farrier, dentist, physio, and report back to the owner when needed. My owners don't have check their horses twice a day, or take time off for visiting professionals. They can go on holiday without worrying, and they can keep an eye on the antics of their horses via Facebook, while I'm out there wrangling naughty horses, repairing fences, splitting up scrappers - mostly at 11pm, when I really want to be in bed! I think the most important thing that my liveries are paying for (and the current bunch totally get this) is 35 years worth of experience. 
I have a block of stables going up, and I'm just about to expand operations a bit to include box rest/rehab/fat camp liveries. I'm going to be just as picky as I was when I started off here.
		
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Good for you .
And if I needed livery of that type I would happily send my horse to you .
I think the average owner with a horse at DIY or part livery and a job or with the horse at home and a full time job can't do box rest well .
Caring for a horse on box rest well is a skill and very time consuming.
There should be a enough demand for it .
Like selling diamonds you don't need everybody to afford them just enough people to cover your needs .


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## AML (1 August 2016)

Auslander said:



			It's so sad to read posts like this - but coming at it from the perspective of a yard owner, I can totally understand it. I had cheap and cheerful grass liveries for several years, just maing enough to cover my field rent, while I worked full time elsewhere. Last year I was offered the opportunity to take on a small acreage, with two schools, all weather turnout pens, and lovely hacking, which came with a house. I jumped at the chance, but it was very clear that I needed to revise my offering, as I had limited acreage. I opted for offering full grass livery to a limited number of horses, and being very picky about who I took on. I'm not cheap, and I've had many snarky comments from people who are looking for grass livery about how much I charge. I explain every time that the owners are not just paying for their horses to graze my land. They are paying for peace of mind. I keep a careful eye on condition, health, herd dynamics, etc. I am there for the vet, farrier, dentist, physio, and report back to the owner when needed. My owners don't have check their horses twice a day, or take time off for visiting professionals. They can go on holiday without worrying, and they can keep an eye on the antics of their horses via Facebook, while I'm out there wrangling naughty horses, repairing fences, splitting up scrappers - mostly at 11pm, when I really want to be in bed! I think the most important thing that my liveries are paying for (and the current bunch totally get this) is 35 years worth of experience. 
I have a block of stables going up, and I'm just about to expand operations a bit to include box rest/rehab/fat camp liveries. I'm going to be just as picky as I was when I started off here.
		
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And this is what most people don't understand.

In a good yard manager/owner you are getting their knowledge, their experience, their reliability and their commitment to each and every one of their charges to make their time with them a happy healthy experience.

Twenty years ago a lady who was moving into the area enquired as to my prices. Upon being told she rather brusquely asked with a look of horror on her face, "What do you get for That!"  I knew she wouldn't understand the reply - You get me.
I've never advertised, my horses do the talking and I'm very very fussy as to who I take on so the yard remains a happy, peaceful place for horse and human.

I charge enough to make a living, put some away, spend some on my pleasure pursuits. I'm not cheap, but nor do I fleece my clients.

I hope the OP is looking forward to a new future. I shall be sadder than a sad thing when the time comes for me to give up - Inside I'm still that little girl that would rush home from school just to be with her pony.


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## splashgirl45 (1 August 2016)

moleskinsmum said:



			Um, I am one of those people who keeps a horse on a shoestring budget, of which more in a minute...

However, I sympathise entirely with the OP's decision. Having worked with horses in my youth, I took the decision to get a "proper" job as I knew there was no way I would be able to ever buy a house etc on the wages I received. I would have much rather continued with horses but, even 30 years ago, it just wasn't economically viable for me - and the majority of horses were then owned by "rich" people or businesses. I don't think £1.50 is too much for picking out feet - I'd want at least that for doing it - but my personal circumstances would not allow another tenner a week on my bill.

I am not a cheapskate. I am self employed and my income is variable. My livery is due today and is going to be late as my July tax bill has completely cleaned out my coffers until the money I am owed starts to arrive. I have discussed this with my YO who is completely relaxed about when I pay and knows it will be paid in full as soon as the money comes in.

I knew that owning a horse was going to be hard financially so, when I was buying, I purposely looked for a "cheap to keep" type and that has worked out. His two vet bills this month will be covered when due but those are, touch wood, few and far between. I knew, also, that I could only afford DIY and no services and that, too, has worked out, with a great relationship with the livery who shares my field. 

Should I have bought a horse in the first place? Well, it was the one thing in life I had always wanted. I'd had a lifetime of riding other people's and had had my old boy on loan for 16 years, until we lost him. I felt I had the knowledge to decide what I needed and how to keep it, I didn't have great expectations of being able to jump round Badminton, and I was prepared to compromise on other aspects of my life (like sleep!).

Frankly, I have months where I could afford full livery and months like this one where I can't afford to feed the family, let alone have any luxuries. When I do have good months, the money goes into the pot for vet's bills, rug cleaning or repairing, tack replacement or anything else that might be needed. At the moment (when it comes in) it will be set aside for diesel as my trips to the yard are about to go from 18 miles every day to about 100, thanks to expected roadworks. I also have a support network that means if I were ill or injured, I know my friends would ensure my horse's well being, and I have a hard-to-reach savings pot that will go with him to a friend if he out-lives me.

So, you could say that I am a cheapskate and one of the people who should not have a horse as they don't have the correct finances. However, he is my joy and my sanity and I value my yard, and YO, hugely as they are what enables it to happen. I may not be able to cough up in money terms but I am always happy to volunteer for fencing, muck shifting, helping with YO's horses and other animals and whatever needs doing that is within my capabilities.
		
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i am in a similar position but have the same income all the time, a work pension and the state pension.  sadly this means i often go without while my horse who is on diy, is checked on  twice daily by me  is groomed every day and has whatever she needs. she never goes without . i havent been away even for a weekend in over 15years and really dont have enough income to be a horse owner but dont know what i would do without a horse so i just have rather large credit card bills!!!!!  i have a great YO who would help me if necessary and i help with her horses if needed so we have a good relationship...


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## Goldenstar (1 August 2016)

moleskinsmum said:



			Um, I am one of those people who keeps a horse on a shoestring budget, of which more in a minute...

However, I sympathise entirely with the OP's decision. Having worked with horses in my youth, I took the decision to get a "proper" job as I knew there was no way I would be able to ever buy a house etc on the wages I received. I would have much rather continued with horses but, even 30 years ago, it just wasn't economically viable for me - and the majority of horses were then owned by "rich" people or businesses. I don't think £1.50 is too much for picking out feet - I'd want at least that for doing it - but my personal circumstances would not allow another tenner a week on my bill.

I am not a cheapskate. I am self employed and my income is variable. My livery is due today and is going to be late as my July tax bill has completely cleaned out my coffers until the money I am owed starts to arrive. I have discussed this with my YO who is completely relaxed about when I pay and knows it will be paid in full as soon as the money comes in.

I knew that owning a horse was going to be hard financially so, when I was buying, I purposely looked for a "cheap to keep" type and that has worked out. His two vet bills this month will be covered when due but those are, touch wood, few and far between. I knew, also, that I could only afford DIY and no services and that, too, has worked out, with a great relationship with the livery who shares my field. 

Should I have bought a horse in the first place? Well, it was the one thing in life I had always wanted. I'd had a lifetime of riding other people's and had had my old boy on loan for 16 years, until we lost him. I felt I had the knowledge to decide what I needed and how to keep it, I didn't have great expectations of being able to jump round Badminton, and I was prepared to compromise on other aspects of my life (like sleep!).

Frankly, I have months where I could afford full livery and months like this one where I can't afford to feed the family, let alone have any luxuries. When I do have good months, the money goes into the pot for vet's bills, rug cleaning or repairing, tack replacement or anything else that might be needed. At the moment (when it comes in) it will be set aside for diesel as my trips to the yard are about to go from 18 miles every day to about 100, thanks to expected roadworks. I also have a support network that means if I were ill or injured, I know my friends would ensure my horse's well being, and I have a hard-to-reach savings pot that will go with him to a friend if he out-lives me.

So, you could say that I am a cheapskate and one of the people who should not have a horse as they don't have the correct finances. However, he is my joy and my sanity and I value my yard, and YO, hugely as they are what enables it to happen. I may not be able to cough up in money terms but I am always happy to volunteer for fencing, muck shifting, helping with YO's horses and other animals and whatever needs doing that is within my capabilities.
		
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There's a big difference between being unable to afford an extra £10.50 a week to have your horses feet picked out so doing it yourself and saying it's an outrageous price that should be done for you for less .
One is being realistic and the other is cheapshake.


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## jules9203 (1 August 2016)

OP I completely understand this. I have some DIY, Part and Full. I have some amazing liveries but its one or two of the DIY that are the hardest work for the least money. It has been a learning curve for me as a YO (I had experience of owning stables as well as being on livery) as I always wanted to create a 'haven' for the livery owners but have learnt the hard way that some will seriously take advantage and cause a seriously bad atmosphere. It doesn't come as a surprise anymore how much our experience can be under valued but I have developed a tough skin and if someone isn't prepared to pay my prices I know I don't want them on my yard.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (1 August 2016)

All the complaining little madams who come on here complaining and bitching about their dreaded YMs and YO's need to read this; now those on this yard with this incredibly hard-working, conscientious and dedicated YM will have to find themselves somewhere else pretty soon............ but I doubt if they'll learn even so.

Shame on you all!! I have no sympathy, it serves you right. You've just lost yourselves the best YM you'll ever have.


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## tallyho! (1 August 2016)

So sad... the implications of over-breeding reach far and wide


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## Jericho (1 August 2016)

the realities of running a perfect yard against the dream - I have always dreamed of being a YM but actually I know it would be exactly as you describe it. your username is perfect....


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## HashRouge (1 August 2016)

Unfortunately there is very little money in horses, no matter what area you work in. I spent two years as an SJ groom and was yard manager for one of those. If my pay had been relative to how hard I worked I would have been a very wealthy woman! It's sad really because I was a very good YM and I love working with competition horses, but I always knew it could never be my career as it just doesn't pay enough. I'm back helping out my old boss for the summer, before starting a new job in September, and I can't imagine there is anything I'd enjoy as much as this. But it just doesn't pay enough to build a life on. It is a sad truth for most of those who work with horses, I think.


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## FFAQ (1 August 2016)

Don't blame you in the slightest OP!  Speaking as someone who handles hooves for a living, some horses should cost £1500 danger money!!

I meet a lot of people on livery yards, and it has made me infinitely glad that I do not run a livery yard (and so thankful that I rent from a local farmer).  Yes, I do sometimes wish I had a school, and I moan about the gates that don't open once the cows have itched their bums on them, but my general attitude is that if something is a pain (like the gates), I will speak to the farmer and offer to buy a new gate.  God knows the rent is cheap compared to everything that has been mentioned on this thread!

Thanks to livery yard and land owners like you, I am able to afford to keep my 3 horses healthy and happy.  If you charged what you undoubtedly should it would be a very different story for me, so on behalf of people like me - thank you!  And best of luck in whatever you turn your hand to next!


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## Disillusioned (1 August 2016)

Wow, I&#8217;ve really opened up the floodgates on this one!

Thank you all for such positive comments, both on here and via PM (I will respond to the PMs later). So many other posters have made really valid points &#8211; too many to mention but I will pick a few out.

Firstly, MiJods &#8211; on the whole, my liveries (and their horses!) are great. As far as I am aware they are all happy with the service they are getting. The &#8216;mutterings&#8217; about the price rise I mentioned were eased when I explained why I had to do it. The main one was an owner with two horses &#8211; I think she was expecting me to waive it on one horse as some sort of multi-horse discount! My yard is a happy place where people can enjoy their horses without feeling they&#8217;re under constant scrutiny by others and there is no bitching or point-scoring.

Adorable Alice &#8211; you are unfortunately right about being unable to sustain a &#8220;rainy-day&#8221; fund. If a box is empty for a month or two, any reserves built up are soon eaten into.

The Fuzzy Furry &#8211; I think you are quite right in that a lot of people seem to expect livery to cost not much more than it did 20 years ago! I was discussing this recently with the manager of a yard I worked at about 15 years ago, who is very good at his job (I learnt a lot from him during my time there). His livery has increased by about 20% since I was there but most costs have gone up by much more than that so his margins are getting ever tighter. He made a very telling comment &#8211; &#8220;I really don&#8217;t make enough to care as much as I do about this yard. I&#8217;m seriously considering getting out too, I don&#8217;t want to get to the point where I stop caring.&#8221;

fatpiggy & ribbons &#8211; getting decent yard staff is also becoming more of an issue in the industry. As well as the loss of decent riding schools, I think the trend towards college based training is also having an effect. I did my training and exams as a working pupil, having previously done the riding school helper route as a child. Yes that involved being paid not much more than pocket money but I got such a good grounding from learning on a proper yard rather than a sterile college environment. Also, it meant that yards could afford to have more bodies on the yard and so have time to provide proper training. Colleges don&#8217;t seem to give their students a realistic idea of what to expect in the &#8220;real&#8221; horse world, in terms of both work load and earnings. (Rather ironic that all these years later, according to one poster I should only expect to be earning pocket money again!)

HaffiesRock &#8211; I think your post should be required reading for anyone who has issues with the cost of livery! 

moleskinsmum &#8211; I wouldn&#8217;t call you a cheapskate owner, I&#8217;d call you realistic and sensible. You thought long and hard about getting your horse and realised that you would have to make sacrifices elsewhere to afford him. You have earned your horse and obviously have a true appreciation of your yard. I&#8217;m sure the DIY yard owners and managers reading this would love all their liveries to be like you!

Anyway.....

The deed is now done and I actually felt quite emotional when I handed my letter over. I have been in regular discussions with the yard owners about this being a possibility so it was not unexpected &#8211; they understand and respect my decision. I still feel a bit numb but also a weight is beginning to lift and there is a sense of relief kicking in. I don&#8217;t know yet what I&#8217;ll do long-term, but a friend in recruitment can get me short-term work while I sort my life out. More irony &#8211; I can earn what will initially seem like a small fortune for a Mon-Fri job which doesn&#8217;t require any specialist skills or knowledge and has no responsibility. Apparently there&#8217;s even paid overtime!

Although I am sad for my situation, I am also glad that this has provoked such a big response and hopefully this thread has made a few more people appreciate just how much their yard owners and managers actually do for them.


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## fatpiggy (2 August 2016)

stencilface said:



			If my parents hadn't bought land when my nana died nearly 30 years ago there is no way I could afford to keep a horse, not a chance.  I'm in awe of anyone that does it tbh!!

We pay £15 a day for someone to check ours twice a day when we go away, and even though it is only to check they have a pulse and four legs visit I now feel like she's underpaid!
		
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She is!  I had to pay a private mobile groom £20 a day in 2001 (last time I had a holiday) to give my horse her pre-prepared morning feed, rug her and put her in the paddock just across the road, pick up the 3 poos she did overnight and change the water.  Someone on the yard brought her in for me in the evenings (couldn't get anyone to do her in the mornings despite the fact that I attended to theirs all year round!)


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## wingedhorse (2 August 2016)

It is tricky. No one should work without profit margin.

But equally, I am currently assisted DIY, and I notice the additional cost of any extra services.

My yard is great, and the services are good. And we have to buy 7 days of turnout / bring in a week, to enable them to guarantee enough work for grooms.

My yard makes a net loss, but the yard owners own the land, and have company for their retired mare, and the grooms cover her care.

I have been on part livery / assisted livery where  feet arent picked out, mucking out not done well, hay and water and feed been forgotten (not all at same time). Injuries have been missed. And I am still paying.

It makes me very cynical, I largely went to DIY as I was fed up of paying for unreliable care. Then I got second horse which meant needed to stay DIY. 

But good yards, were the standard of facilities, and care are good, and reliable are worth paying for.

Im an accountant, and I dont think many people can make money, on renting a yard, and offering livery, if they have to cover all the maintenance costs, and the rent.

Most yards, if cover cost of using land, maintenance, decent staff costs, decent facilities, decent bedding and forage, just cant make money. You need lots of land that you own, and to make own hay and straw, and have all the maintenance equipment on site, and then might make money.


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## YorksG (2 August 2016)

wingedhorse said:



			It is tricky. No one should work without profit margin.

But equally, I am currently assisted DIY, and I notice the additional cost of any extra services.

My yard is great, and the services are good. And we have to buy 7 days of turnout / bring in a week, to enable them to guarantee enough work for grooms.

My yard makes a net loss, but the yard owners own the land, and have company for their retired mare, and the grooms cover her care.

I have been on part livery / assisted livery where  feet arent picked out, mucking out not done well, hay and water and feed been forgotten (not all at same time). Injuries have been missed. And I am still paying.

It makes me very cynical, I largely went to DIY as I was fed up of paying for unreliable care. Then I got second horse which meant needed to stay DIY. 

But good yards, were the standard of facilities, and care are good, and reliable are worth paying for.

Im an accountant, and I dont think many people can make money, on renting a yard, and offering livery, if they have to cover all the maintenance costs, and the rent.

Most yards, if cover cost of using land, maintenance, decent staff costs, decent facilities, decent bedding and forage, just cant make money. You need lots of land that you own, and to make own hay and straw, and have all the maintenance equipment on site, and then might make money.
		
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The only reasaon that people can't make money is because so many horse owners expect their hobby to be subsidised by YO's, Vets, saddlers, farriers etc. It really is astonishing. I often read posts on here where people appear to think that it is their right to own a horse and that all the people involved should subsidise what is a lifestyle choice! If their hobby was driving expensive cars, I'm pretty sure that they would not be expecting cheap fuel, or subsidised car parts!


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## Cortez (2 August 2016)

That's why I gave up having liverys over 20 years ago: pure slavery! Oh, and 25 years ago the average charge for basic (i.e. non-riding) livery in the US - where I happened to be at the time - was £800, which is at least more realistic.


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## Stockers (2 August 2016)

YorksG said:



			The only reasaon that people can't make money is because so many horse owners expect their hobby to be subsidised by YO's, Vets, saddlers, farriers etc. It really is astonishing. I often read posts on here where people appear to think that it is their right to own a horse and that all the people involved should subsidise what is a lifestyle choice! If their hobby was driving expensive cars, I'm pretty sure that they would not be expecting cheap fuel, or subsidised car parts!
		
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This - 100%.  Other thing that galls me is the assumption that YOs' should and will put up with continuously late payment to the point where the livery clears abit owing but never gets up to date - therefore acting as an unpaid borowing facility.  the YO on my former yard threw you out if you consistently had more than two weeks livery outstanding.


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## wingedhorse (2 August 2016)

YorksG said:



			The only reasaon that people can't make money is because so many horse owners expect their hobby to be subsidised by YO's, Vets, saddlers, farriers etc. It really is astonishing. I often read posts on here where people appear to think that it is their right to own a horse and that all the people involved should subsidise what is a lifestyle choice! If their hobby was driving expensive cars, I'm pretty sure that they would not be expecting cheap fuel, or subsidised car parts!
		
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Speaking as an accountant, no one should run a business, unless they have assessed total costs, what the typical prices of the competition in the area are, the and profit margins available, and decided if it is sustainable for them.

It is not the fault of people wanting cheaper services. Horses are backbreakingly expensive, and as an owner you have to balance cost effective with sufficient quality. I look very hard at all my variable horse costs, e.g. buy big hay bales, by bedding in bulk, minimise extra services etc. 

You as the vet / farrier / yard owner / bodyworker  are in control of what prices you set, what standards you set and whether you can make a living or not.

For example, good farriers, who are reliable, with a good eye for foot balance, will almost always have a full book, irrespective of what they charge. They are in short supply.

In my experience, it is cheaper as a horse owner to have a very good farrier, that is GOOD, than to pay the associated vet and bodywork costs of having a substandard farrier!! 

Same logic with saddlers and bodyworkers.


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## C1airey (2 August 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			I would think there has been no opportunity to earn enough to fund a private pension or any other form of 'old age/rainy day' pot.
		
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And it's not just the pension pot.  The nice man in payroll makes sure my income tax, NI and student loan repayments are paid.  The nice man in payroll is paid a fair wage for what he does.  OP either has to sit down and do their own accounts and tax return, or pay someone else to do it for them. Having recently toyed with the idea of jacking my own job in to work for myself, this was one big bucket of cold water which flooded my plans!  

If liveries are unwilling to pay to have their horses' feet picked out, they are hardly going to pay for the time spent on yard admin, and yet it's as much a part of running the yard as turning out, bringing in, etc.


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## JillA (2 August 2016)

So now here is a question for you. My saddle fitter (prefers to be called a saddle ergonomist to distinguish her from the badly trained ones who just check the head) has been this morning, spent well over two hours watching me ride, adjusting tree and flocking, watching me ride again, measured, recorded and advised. How much would most of you be prepared to pay for that service including travelling from another part of the country? I'm genuinely interested in the replies, it isn't a trick question, along the lines of why should she train for years, spend time and money on transport and use a good two hours of her time unless it is for a decent living given all the points made above?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (2 August 2016)

JillA said:



			So now here is a question for you. My saddle fitter (prefers to be called a saddle ergonomist to distinguish her from the badly trained ones who just check the head) has been this morning, spent two hours watching me ride, adjusting tree and flocking, watching me ride again, measured, recorded and advised. How much would most of you be prepared to pay for that service including travelling from another part of the country? I'm genuinely interested in the replies, it isn't a trick question, along the lines of why should she train for years, spend time and money on transport and use a good two hours of her time unless it is for a decent living given all the points made above?
		
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Well if that was one of our employees, that would be £65 call out, inc the 1st half hour on site, £22.50 for the additional half hour, then £45 per hour thereafter, plus 'parts',  all plus VAT............


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## Goldenstar (2 August 2016)

JillA said:



			So now here is a question for you. My saddle fitter (prefers to be called a saddle ergonomist to distinguish her from the badly trained ones who just check the head) has been this morning, spent well over two hours watching me ride, adjusting tree and flocking, watching me ride again, measured, recorded and advised. How much would most of you be prepared to pay for that service including travelling from another part of the country? I'm genuinely interested in the replies, it isn't a trick question, along the lines of why should she train for years, spend time and money on transport and use a good two hours of her time unless it is for a decent living given all the points made above?
		
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Around £150  depending on the travel cost .
Except with the silly title I would not let her through the gate .


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## Red-1 (2 August 2016)

£150 is what I pay another horse specialist to come to my house. Fine bargain for what I get, but we don't splash out that often!

To be fair, she is here for 4 hours though.


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## Cortez (2 August 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Around £150  depending on the travel cost .
Except with the silly title I would not let her through the gate .
		
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Ha ha! My thoughts exactly


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## applecart14 (2 August 2016)

Hooray good for you.  Some people want to be given livery for free.  I wouldn't have my own yard, not enough profit margin, too many arguments and lots of hassle all round. Not for me.   

The post that I started (as is per usual) was taken out of context, blown up into some huge argument, my words were taken out of context, bit were added that I hadn't even said and people added to it with their own incredulous ramblings, and as usual I have been made to look like the devil in disguise 

My initial post expressed my dismay that I had rung three livery yards and left voicemail messages (two of which I left a second voice mail with) and all three have still not come back to me!  I also expressed dismay at the fact that a £38 livery per week would cost an additional £30 in summer and £40 in winter due to extras.

I am all for paying what I see as a reasonable amount to have my horse brought in or turned out but the examples I gave, were, in my opinion very expensive.   Incidentally the picking out feet thing, I never even wanted anyway and did say that.  On its own £1.50 some might say, may be a reasonable charge.  But when you coulple it with the £2.00 to bring in the same horse AND THEN add the £1.50 - that's when I think its unfair. And £3 for throwing a ready prepared, already purchase and already wet tub of hay over a door when you are feeding all the other liveries their afternoon or lunch time tubs (come on!!!!).  My last yard they did it for free as courtesy.  Each lunchtime and at 10pm every night.  FOC.

If people are going to quote me, or read my OP and respond I wish they would have the decency to read it properly in the first place.


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## caileag (2 August 2016)

Good point JillA. I work in the rail industry where we often have to use specialist contractors for a day or so for a bit of design/construction work. I know what the going rate for paying for any kind of specialism is ( a lot !) and am often amazed at how little people in the equine world actually charge for imparting their expertise.  On the other hand though,  I think there seems to be a certain amount of 'doing for the love of it' involved too, almost a vocation. Sadly I suppose if all equine professionals were to charge similar to industry standard then their work would soon dry up.


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## ElleSkywalker (2 August 2016)

JillA I think about 80 for the reflocking and advice etc and travel on top so depends how far she has travelled


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## ester (2 August 2016)

I think plenty of people read your post correctly AC14, it is disingenuous to suggest everyone didn't and I don't remember any sort of huge argument?
You deem £3 too expensive for a turnout or get in, though £2.50 was ok. People disagreed, such is life on the forum.
If I could only see to my horse at one end of the day I would think £30-40 a week quite reasonable which I think was the general consensus.


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## smja (2 August 2016)

applecart14 said:



			On its own £1.50 some might say, may be a reasonable charge.  But when you coulple it with the £2.00 to bring in the same horse AND THEN add the £1.50 - that's when I think its unfair.
		
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Why is that unfair? They're different jobs - some overlap re: injuries/lost shoes I grant you, but you're paying for the groom's time. 
At our yard it takes about 10 minutes to bring in as the field is pretty far away, and it's standard that all charges are separate (e.g. bring in, wash legs, pick feet, change rugs), because some people want them and others don't.


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## applecart14 (2 August 2016)

Disillusioned said:



			For info, I am a long time forum user under a different name but needed to be anonymous for this.
		
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There are many people with multiple accounts on this forum.  They try to 'enforce' a point or brow beat others to insist their voice is heard by logging in and out under different user names and then come on and say... "Oh yes I agree with you about this, or that or the other".  Not only is this against the rules of the forum but it is underhanded and unfair.

I am not suggesting that you are doing this but I hate this kind of thing as people should only have one account.  I 've been on this forum for over six years, this is my second account and I only came off the first time because I felt uncomfortable about the amount of bullying and victimization that was going on at the time.  I am now under my second user name which has all been logged with Admin and is all above board.

I know for a fact of at least four other individuals who all have more than one account and know of others who I suspect have at least three accounts.  Admin are not as hot as they used to be at one point on this. Its really sad.


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## Goldenstar (2 August 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Hooray good for you.  Some people want to be given livery for free.  I wouldn't have my own yard, not enough profit margin, too many arguments and lots of hassle all round. Not for me.   

The post that I started (as is per usual) was taken out of context, blown up into some huge argument, my words were taken out of context, bit were added that I hadn't even said and people added to it with their own incredulous ramblings, and as usual I have been made to look like the devil in disguise 

My initial post expressed my dismay that I had rung three livery yards and left voicemail messages (two of which I left a second voice mail with) and all three have still not come back to me!  I also expressed dismay at the fact that a £38 livery per week would cost an additional £30 in summer and £40 in winter due to extras.

I am all for paying what I see as a reasonable amount to have my horse brought in or turned out but the examples I gave, were, in my opinion very expensive.   Incidentally the picking out feet thing, I never even wanted anyway and did say that.  On its own £1.50 some might say, may be a reasonable charge.  But when you coulple it with the £2.00 to bring in the same horse AND THEN add the £1.50 - that's when I think its unfair. And £3 for throwing a ready prepared, already purchase and already wet tub of hay over a door when you are feeding all the other liveries their afternoon or lunch time tubs (come on!!!!).  My last yard they did it for free as courtesy.  Each lunchtime and at 10pm every night.  FOC.

If people are going to quote me, or read my OP and respond I wish they would have the decency to read it properly in the first place.
		
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No argument I just think it ridcoulous that you think that 3.50 is too expensive for some one to get a head collar walk to the field catch the horse get it out the gate take it in the stable tie it up get a hoof pick ,pick out its feet take the head collar off the horse put it away put the hoof pick away .
For the hay in the trug the person has to walk to your stable put the food in and walk back to what they are doing .
I think £3 is expensive for this however it may well be a service is needed at the time when the manger does not really want to provide the service hence the high cost .


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## ester (2 August 2016)

If you aren't suggesting the OP is doing that why bring it up? I would think it pretty fair of her not to want her liveries to find out via an online platform?
Plenty of people use second accounts for personal and sensitive matters in the clubhouse and no one minds as the reasons are clear once you have a bit of RL connection with other members.

But yes, admin don't seem particularly fussed about multiple accounts unless used for clear trolling, or banned members returning tbh, I guess that is their perogative.


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## applecart14 (2 August 2016)

YorksG said:



			The only reasaon that people can't make money is because so many horse owners expect their hobby to be subsidised by YO's, Vets, saddlers, farriers etc. !
		
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Nobody thinks that.  You have read it and that is YOUR interpretation of things.  BUt that is so not the case. Everyone is looking for the best deal around, its called being savvy with money. Just because people do that doesn't mean to say that they expect to be subsidized.


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## applecart14 (2 August 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			No argument I just think it ridcoulous that you think that 3.50 is too expensive for some one to get a head collar walk to the field catch the horse get it out the gate take it in the stable tie it up get a hoof pick ,pick out its feet take the head collar off the horse put it away put the hoof pick away .
For the hay in the trug the person has to walk to your stable put the food in and walk back to what they are doing .
I think £3 is expensive for this however it may well be a service is needed at the time when the manger does not really want to provide the service hence the high cost .
		
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Yes I do.  Certainly.  We are talking a couple of minutes.  At the yard I worked at on the odd weekend we were being paid £6.00 per hour, we were responsible for about six or seven turnouts/muckouts/bring ins each.  We would get the hay/haylage in from outside where it was stored, feed all 40 horses and ponies.  Turn our six or seven each out, then muck out - full bed, water, hay, make up feeds for p.m, sweep yard, bring horses in, unrug, pick out feet, wash legs.  We started at 8am and finished at midday.  .

My current yard charges £2.00 for brining in which includes picking out feet, checking for injuries, taking off rugs, if cold putting on stable rugs, etc.  THe one before included this in the £65.00 per week I was paying (at the top SJ yard).  THe one before that you either got a free turnout or a free bring in each weekday.  Some yards are very avaricious was what I was saying compared with the others that I have been on.

And about the trug.  No they were not going out of their way to leave what they were doing to walk a few yards to my horse.  The yard that I rang up about and didn't go to because of their shocking price strategy was feeding all the horses at the same time, so going down a line of horses in an indoor barn and up the other side again and chucking a bucket in (contents and all).  This is the yard that the bloke running it left because he couldn't make it pay. At those prices I don't expect he could.  I honestly didn't think I would have to go into such huge detail on this forum about a tub of hay, in exchange for being spared a slating!


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## applecart14 (2 August 2016)

ester said:



			I think plenty of people read your post correctly AC14, it is disingenuous to suggest everyone didn't and I don't remember any sort of huge argument?
You deem £3 too expensive for a turnout or get in, though £2.50 was ok. People disagreed, such is life on the forum.
If I could only see to my horse at one end of the day I would think £30-40 a week quite reasonable which I think was the general consensus.
		
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Yes Ester


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## Mrs B (2 August 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Ester my love, if I said the sky was blue you would argue it was green. It gets boring after a few years.............
		
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Oh my! Pot, kettle, black ... 

OP - I don't blame you. I said never again and will stick to it. I'm not surprised you feel relieved now the notices are done and I wish you good luck with whatever it is you decide to do.


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## applecart14 (2 August 2016)

Mrs B said:



			Oh my! Pot, kettle, black ... 

OP - I don't blame you. I said never again and will stick to it. I'm not surprised you feel relieved now the notices are done and I wish you good luck with whatever it is you decide to do. 

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Thank you.


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## applecart14 (2 August 2016)

Mrs B said:



			Oh my! Pot, kettle, black ... 

OP - I don't blame you. I said never again and will stick to it. I'm not surprised you feel relieved now the notices are done and I wish you good luck with whatever it is you decide to do. 

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Err I didn't actually post that in the end, I changed my mind.


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## Jnhuk (2 August 2016)

Not read the whole thread but just want to wish the OP best of luck for the future.


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## applecart14 (2 August 2016)

Jnhuk said:



			Not read the whole thread but just want to wish the OP best of luck for the future.
		
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Me too.


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## ester (2 August 2016)

well you must have pressed the post button in the first instance or it couldn't be quoted. 
Charming as always.
As usual I just like things to be more correctly represented, not just other's thoughts of how things unfolded on other posts although everyone is of course welcome to go and read it in it's entirety. 
If correct and accurate things are said I quite happily agree with them all over this forum otherwise I may suggest a different point of view and I am sure I can bring up multiple incidences where I have agreed with you, you just seem to forget them. In fact I did just up there about admin ignoring multiple accounts, but lets not the facts get in the way.


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## Rowreach (2 August 2016)

Cortez said:



			That's why I gave up having liverys over 20 years ago: pure slavery! Oh, and 25 years ago the average charge for basic (i.e. non-riding) livery in the US - where I happened to be at the time - was £800, which is at least more realistic.
		
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Particularly difficult in Ireland where horse owners really do expect almost free care for their horse.  I gave up a couple of years ago, after more than 20 years of running a livery yard.  Disillusioned didn't even begin to describe it.  It was a huge relief to make the decision, and it has been life changing with absolutely no regrets.


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## 9tails (2 August 2016)

I'm constantly surprised that I can keep a horse for so little.  My yard is large, over 50 horses, the DIY cost is £150 per month.  Since I've been there 8 years, the school has been resurfaced, a lunge pen has been built, all the fields have post and rail fencing.   We have a spectacular riding track around the land and the stables are functional though not beautiful.  Verges are constantly being manicured, the muck heap is pushed back daily by tractor, all maintenance is done for leaks, electrical issues, broken rails or stables.  There are two fulltime chaps who do all the work, no horse contact, probably for not much more than minimum wage.  I very much doubt that the accummulated £150s per month goes anywhere near paying for all this work but when the owner bought a new car there was dissent in other liveries that he "was doing rather too well".


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## skint1 (2 August 2016)

Wow 9tails, if I were the liveries on that yard and I would shut up and smile and congratulate the YO on his new car.  My DIY livery is a similar price, our YO is a farmer so we even get good quality haylage and straw included in winter months. Everything is functional and maintained.  Of course it's not perfect, but on the whole I think we have an excellent deal.


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## wingedhorse (2 August 2016)

9tails said:



			I'm constantly surprised that I can keep a horse for so little.  My yard is large, over 50 horses, the DIY cost is £150 per month.  Since I've been there 8 years, the school has been resurfaced, a lunge pen has been built, all the fields have post and rail fencing.   We have a spectacular riding track around the land and the stables are functional though not beautiful.  Verges are constantly being manicured, the muck heap is pushed back daily by tractor, all maintenance is done for leaks, electrical issues, broken rails or stables.  There are two fulltime chaps who do all the work, no horse contact, probably for not much more than minimum wage.  I very much doubt that the accummulated £150s per month goes anywhere near paying for all this work but when the owner bought a new car there was dissent in other liveries that he "was doing rather too well".
		
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50 horses at £150 a month is £90,000 a year, allowing for maintenance, but applying economies of scale, I'd hope they would be turning fair profit margin. Isnt this a yard that doesn't provide all year turn around, and doesn't have huge amount of well draining land?


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## YorksG (2 August 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Nobody thinks that.  You have read it and that is YOUR interpretation of things.  BUt that is so not the case. Everyone is looking for the best deal around, its called being savvy with money. Just because people do that doesn't mean to say that they expect to be subsidized.
		
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But the best deal around often does mean that the YO does indeed subsidise the horse owner, as the OP has pointed out, to the point where it is no longer sustainable for her to continue to provide a livery service to her customers. While you may not expect your hobby to be subsidised, there are many others who appear to.


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## JanetGeorge (2 August 2016)

dominobrown said:



			I agree with OP and thinks its such a shame.
I do think the whole industry needs a wake up call. I think because actual horses themselves are relatively cheap, however the cost to care and produce them has gone up, and then people whine about £2500 for an all-rounder!
		
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Don't start me on the cost of horses!!  FAR too many people want a young, good quality horse, backed and hacking out quietly - alone or in company.  For that, they think maybe £3,500 is PLENTY.  Of course, if they want a HW hunter good enough to go to HOYS, they USUALLY realise they have to pay a BIT more for that horse as a 5 yo - maybe £5,000.

Ignore the original cost of the broodmare (and my most expensive one was £10,000 at 3yo), assume she produces one every year with no real foaling problems and that they all live and grow to 5yo, and that you keep them at home on owned land (hell, you don't want to charge your own horses rent).  And that you can back them yourself while doing everything else!  And that stud/semen costs are reasonable and you only need one delivery!  IF all that was true, I could just about cover my costs by selling the best ones at £5,000 - as long as I didn't want NMW for me!

Fools breed horses for wise men to buy!


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## Frumpoon (2 August 2016)

It's not just horses though, there's a daft trout in Facebook keeps advertising free mobile home accommodation in exchange for 4 hours a day handyman type work...errrr our yard handy man charges £20-30 an hour for his multitude of skills and experience, I doubt her skanky caravan is worth £600 a week


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## s4sugar (2 August 2016)

Love how people compare horse livery to boarding a dog or cat. 
It costs more to build a model licence conditions compliant cat or dog pen than it does to build a stable. 
They have to be licenced and by the nature of boarding they are not occupied all days of the year.
They are fully looked after - I include feeding to owners choice, washing all dishes etc, supply & wash bedding, clean & wash down daily, have vets fees insurance, supply litter for the cats, do on to one exercising for the dogs. 
They are checked from early morning & have just bedded down at 9pm. 
Some get groomed - depends on coat. 
Each pen is powerwashed and /or steam cleaned when a pet goes home.

We have more regulations than for an old peoples home! Just had to upgrade consumer units & get electrical safety certificates because our local authority decided they wanted them.
I'm ready to retire and won't be taking on liveries instead.


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## Leo Walker (2 August 2016)

Frumpoon said:



			It's not just horses though, there's a daft trout in Facebook keeps advertising free mobile home accommodation in exchange for 4 hours a day handyman type work...errrr our yard handy man charges £20-30 an hour for his multitude of skills and experience, I doubt her skanky caravan is worth £600 a week
		
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You must be in my area ish as I keep seeing this. I did tell her about a year ago that what she was offering was illegal, and she wants a hell of a lot for a grotty caravan! Shes always advertising so clearly cant keep "staff" I wonder why?!


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## Dave's Mam (2 August 2016)

Applecart, I am sure the use of a different name was not to annoy you, but to protect the poster's persona in real life.  Some of their accquaintances may know their user name on here.


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## Frumpoon (2 August 2016)

Cambridgeshire I think....


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## Tiddlypom (2 August 2016)

wingedhorse said:



			50 horses at £150 a month is £90,000 a year, allowing for maintenance, but applying economies of scale, I'd hope they would be turning fair profit margin. Isnt this a yard that doesn't provide all year turn around, and doesn't have huge amount of well draining land?
		
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£90k gross income a year, less costs of two full time employees and all maintenance/materials/business rates/insurance costs etc doesn't leave much profit IMHO.


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## C1airey (2 August 2016)

s4sugar said:



			Each pen is powerwashed and /or steam cleaned when a pet goes home.
		
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Sorry, off topic, but I totally read this as 'each pet is powerwashed...'  0_o

No more gin for me.


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## Tyssandi (2 August 2016)

Disillusioned said:



			For info, I am a long time forum user under a different name but needed to be anonymous for this.

So, I am a very experienced livery yard manager and for several years, I have been renting and running a yard. I provide full and part livery &#8211; full includes turning out, bringing in, mucking out, bedding, feed and hay (good quality, ad lib); part is the same but without mucking out and bedding. (The terms of my lease don&#8217;t allow me to offer DIY.) The horses are turned out every day of the year, I have a decent 20x60 school, good hacking and the yard is well located for local venues.

There have been many threads which have culminated in this post, particularly the recent one regarding costs of extras and what people consider a reasonable charge/service. I&#8217;ve got a few points to make, so please bear with me!

Firstly, the cost of livery in general. My prices are quite reasonable for my area of the country, and I provide a high standard of care. However, when I put the prices up by £30 per month last year (previous rise was 3 years prior), there were mutterings from some of my owners. (The rise was due to costs of hay and feed rising over time and increases in my yard rent and insurance amongst other things, so quite justifiable.)

As all yard owners/managers know, we cannot charge what would actually be a realistic price for livery because only a minority would then be able to afford it! I tried to think of something to put it into context against and the best I could come up with was renting a room in a house. Round here, you can&#8217;t get a room for less than £450 per month. If you think of DIY livery as your horse &#8216;lodging&#8217; on someone else&#8217;s property, how many people could afford that as a starting point?

And then the cost of extras for DIYs/what is actually included in the service for part/full livery....

There have been comments about how long it should take to pick out feet and that it is an unskilled job. When I pick a horse&#8217;s feet out, I&#8217;m not just removing mud and stones. As I run my hand down the horse&#8217;s leg to pick the foot up, I&#8217;m automatically checking for any heat/cuts/swelling, etc. I&#8217;m also checking the shoes &#8211; all there/twisted/loose/risen clenches? Any sign of heat in the hoof/bruising/thrush? If unshod, any cracks? All in the few minutes the job takes me. Surely this is worth the £1.50 some people begrudge paying?

Rug changes &#8211; not just a case of drag one off and chuck another on. Again, I&#8217;m checking - is the rug damaged/rubbing/leaking? Is the horse too hot/cold? Making sure I&#8217;m putting the appropriate rug on for that horse. As well as giving the horse a general condition check.

Turning out/bringing in. I&#8217;m giving the horse a general once over here too. Is it stiff/lame/any cuts or knocks? Filled legs? Eaten breakfast/last night&#8217;s hay? Drunk usual amount? And obviously, if there are any injuries, I will treat them accordingly and notify the owner.

If the horse is young/green/ill-mannered, then I am by default also training it to be polite and easy to deal with for no extra cost.

I know all my horses&#8217; beds regardless of whether I muck them out or not. So I can tell if the bed is too neat/messy/dirty/clean for that horse. I know all my horses&#8217; characters and quirks and what is normal appearance and behaviour for each one. Therefore I will notice quickly if something isn&#8217;t right and deal with it appropriately.

Taking into account the above, and the time spent on indirect labour such as poo-picking, general field/yard/arena maintenance, admin, etc, a basic daily labour charge of £10 per horse on my yard wouldn&#8217;t seem unreasonable. But that would be £300 per horse per month before any other costs. And would then need a bit more added onto the full liveries for my mucking them out.

Ah yes, the other costs. There are the obvious ones such as hay, feed, etc. But also things such as the yard rent, insurance, rates, maintaining/replacing yard equipment and fencing, maintaining first aid kits, fire extinguisher checks, National Insurance, etc. Some years I pay tax, others my earnings haven&#8217;t gone above the tax-free allowance. And if a box is empty, then my income drops by a few hundred a month, but there is actually minimal difference in the outgoings.

If you add the £300 labour charge to, say, a £400 &#8216;lodging&#8217; (to use my previous comparison) charge to cover all other costs, that would put my part livery at £700 per month. A lot more than what it is at present and considerably more than my current full livery price! But if I was able to charge this sort of money then I would actually be able to earn a reasonable living.

And there is the issue. I now cannot long-term earn a reasonable living unless people&#8217;s ideas of what livery should realistically cost move forward. I never expected to make a fortune and I know this sort of work is a &#8216;lifestyle choice&#8217;. But please bear in mind that without people like me making this choice or property owners choosing to provide equine facilities, whether a basic field or all the bells and whistles, people would not be able to make the &#8216;lifestyle choice&#8217; to own a horse. I do genuinely love my job, and I know I am good at it &#8211; my happy relaxed horses and owners are proof &#8211; but unfortunately appreciation and job satisfaction don&#8217;t pay the bills. I have 25+ years experience, qualifications, have over the years managed yards of 30+ horses and teams of staff. In many other industries, I&#8217;d be on pretty good money. But not in horses. 

Unfortunately I can no longer afford, or want, to subsidise other people&#8217;s horses. 

The reason for the new user name and for not going into more detail about me and my yard is so hopefully no-one will recognise me.

This is because, on 1st August, I will be handing a letter to the owners of my yard giving the required period of notice to terminate my lease. And depending on what the owners then decide to do with the yard, I may have to give notice to my liveries, and I wouldn&#8217;t want anyone to find out from here before I tell them myself.
		
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I sympathize with you entirely;

   We are expected to house peoples horses and give them a lot more in cost included in their monthly bill than it is financially viable, example ad lib hay  that means a livery could potentially have over 3/4 bale a day if they like  which is about £ 5 per day  and lighting -  stable rent - labour  - diesel - facilities - water -  maintenance etc.  An average full livery and I mean Full to included riding etc  is about £ 500 pcm. Which is about £ 17 per day.  It is more costly to have liveries than not IMO, I can really see why so many get rid of liveries and keep their premises to themselves.


    My husband has asked me many times if I want to get rid of the livery horses and just keep ours here, but it is a labour of love.  It would much less hassle to get rid of everyone, but I am lucky to have a really good group.

     With other stories on here about other yards who have problems with   back stabbing, b1tching  going on, it's no wonder why yards do close down or managers leave.   If you do come on here  to ask for help  and ask opinions you get many member's judge you and get all high and mighty  and holier than though about what your doing in your own premises or the way you run the yard and totally side track from what the member asked.

  That is why some time ago I changed my user name, but I with you on your post and wish you the best of luck in the future which ever path you decide to take.


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## ester (2 August 2016)

C1airey said:



			Sorry, off topic, but I totally read this as 'each pet is powerwashed...'  0_o

No more gin for me.
		
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me too!


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## Disillusioned (2 August 2016)

applecart14. There have been times I&#8217;ve thought you&#8217;ve been jumped on unfairly on this forum, but your contradictory comments on this thread have hit a bit of a nerve.

Firstly my user name on this thread. For someone who complains that people don&#8217;t read her threads properly, you obviously didn&#8217;t read my first post all the way through. If you had, you would have seen my reason for being anonymous and not going into specific details about my yard. If I&#8217;d made myself and my yard recognisable, that would have been hugely disrespectful to my liveries if any of them are on here and read of my decision before finding out in person. 

You say &#8220;Some people expect to be given livery for free&#8221; and then in the same post complain about how much per week extras would add to your DIY bill, and that your idea of a &#8220;reasonable charge&#8221; is different to what a yard actually charges. Does that mean you want these extras to be provided for nothing or next to nothing? Yes, if all is well, a bring in or picking out feet doesn&#8217;t always take very long, but if a horse has twisted a shoe half off, that £1.50 hoof-picking charge then includes the shoe being removed or made safe. If a horse comes in with an injury, that £2.00 then includes the wound being cleaned and treated appropriately. So as well as paying for the service being provided and someone being there to provide it, you are paying for anything unexpected to be dealt with at the time, which could, for example, potentially save you a vet bill or urgent farrier callout.

You have said on this thread and on yours that you wouldn&#8217;t run a yard as there wouldn&#8217;t be enough profit margin. You brought up yet again the £3 tub of hay and that the man running the yard left because he couldn&#8217;t make it pay and implied it was due to his charges. It&#8217;s probably more likely that he costed it out and actually charged what he needed to make a profit but had to close because people like you aren&#8217;t prepared to pay those realistic costs.

No-one actually goes to a yard and says to the YM &#8220;I want you to subsidise my horse&#8221; and yes, everyone wants a good deal. But quite often they only consider the livery charge to just be for a stable, grazing and use of a school, and depending on the level of livery, mucking out, turning out, etc as well. They don&#8217;t consider that it has to cover the unseen costs of maintenance, insurance, etc too. And if I have to get in someone like Frumpoon&#8217;s handyman in to do work on the yard, then it also has to cover his £20-odd per hour.

I would have needed to be charging around 50% more on my livery prices to be able to remain in business AND have a reasonable wage for myself AND be able to have a rainy-day fund, proper pension, etc. But that would have priced me way out of the market. And someone like you would not have considered it a good deal at all.


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## Tyssandi (2 August 2016)

marmalade76 said:



			It has to be accepted that no one will ever make a living out of running a livery yard, if you tried you simply wouldn't get the custom, the majority just wouldn't be able to afford to keep horses. It needs to be a side line, treated as a bit of pocket money or to cover the cost of your own horses. Sad but true.
		
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Side line? poppycock!!  That is a joke it is a  FULL time job owning and running/working  a yard, how could we do another job in between of running a yard morning and after noon and evening???


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## Leo Walker (2 August 2016)

The yards I see that are successful and make money have a couple of things in common. They are huge and they have good facilities, they are also either owned land or farmer tenanted land and they are DIY with assistance charged for. . The owners run the yard but also do other farming related stuff as the livery bit takes relatively limited work, so they have time in the summer to do farming stuff. They are run as businesses but are relatively cheap because of economies of scale. There are people who think they are expensive as they charge the top end of local rates but for what you get they are cheap. They dont do full livery, but they all either employ someone to do services or they allow freelance people to provide them. They all have waiting lists and have all been running for years and years and years, and usually expand on a semi regular basis, taking on other properties close by, which brings them more income and increases facilities for the clients. 

The ones that dont make money and fold are the people who try and run full/part livery yards on rented land as a sole occupation. I've just talked a friend out of doing that as the sums just dont add up. 

I pay pennies for livery, but have very poor facilities and the YO actually rents the yard and has a few DIY liveries. It wouldnt suit many people as there is nowhere near enough grazing for the horses, but mine is a fat cob and the less grass the better, so it works for me currently. No idea if she makes money, she doesnt work but I doubt she makes a living from it, more that she covers the cost of her own horse for very limited work.


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## Leo Walker (2 August 2016)

What does shock me a bit is that I pay less for livery in Northampton than I ever did in the North East. My house is valued at roughly 150k, I could buy the same house in the NE for 60k, due to the demand for housing and pressure for land to build etc. Maybe thats part of the issue?


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## Disillusioned (2 August 2016)

s4sugar - I have a couple of good friends who provide boarding facilities and I fully appreciate that that line of work too is not the cushy number it's often seen to be. Again, it is a 365 day a year commitment, you are tied to opening hours and you have the added insecurity of it being seasonal. Like you, one friend has just had to spend a lot of money following a council visit and his facilities are already one of the best in his area.


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## ester (2 August 2016)

TYSSANDI said:



			Side line? poppycock!!  That is a joke it is a  FULL time job owning and running/working  a yard, how could we do another job in between of running a yard morning and after noon and evening???
		
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That's what your husband is for surely? To do the other job .

TBF that is sort of how it works here, though only DIY, house has stables for the YO's horses, they opt to fill the spare stables with a few liveries. YO's never really worked apart from the odd bit of teaching.


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## skint1 (2 August 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			The yards I see that are successful and make money have a couple of things in common. They are huge and they have good facilities, they are also either owned land or farmer tenanted land and they are DIY with assistance charged for. . The owners run the yard but also do other farming related stuff as the livery bit takes relatively limited work, so they have time in the summer to do farming stuff. They are run as businesses but are relatively cheap because of economies of scale. There are people who think they are expensive as they charge the top end of local rates but for what you get they are cheap. They dont do full livery, but they all either employ someone to do services or they allow freelance people to provide them. They all have waiting lists and have all been running for years and years and years, and usually expand on a semi regular basis, taking on other properties close by, which brings them more income and increases facilities for the clients. 

The ones that dont make money and fold are the people who try and run full/part livery yards on rented land as a sole occupation. I've just talked a friend out of doing that as the sums just dont add up. 

I pay pennies for livery, but have very poor facilities and the YO actually rents the yard and has a few DIY liveries. It wouldnt suit many people as there is nowhere near enough grazing for the horses, but mine is a fat cob and the less grass the better, so it works for me currently. No idea if she makes money, she doesnt work but I doubt she makes a living from it, more that she covers the cost of her own horse for very limited work.
		
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I think you're right FrankieCob (about economies of scale/farmers etc)


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## Disillusioned (2 August 2016)

FrankieCob - I agree too. Though my sums did add up when I started out but certainly don't now.

Another occasional gripe on this forum is of "greedy" yard owners/managers taking in too many horses. It is more likely that these extra horses are what keeps the yard going. I could have increased my income by taking in 2 or 3 supervised grass liveries, but then I would have been overstocking the grazing and it would actually have created quite a lot more work. It was something I seriously considered though. Maybe I should have been greedy and kept my yard?


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## skint1 (2 August 2016)

You sound too principled to do something that would be of detriment to.the horses in your care. I'm really so sorry you're in this situation, I think you sound like a great ym.


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## Leo Walker (2 August 2016)

Disillusioned said:



			I could have increased my income by taking in 2 or 3 supervised grass liveries, but then I would have been overstocking the grazing and it would actually have created quite a lot more work. It was something I seriously considered though. Maybe I should have been greedy and kept my yard?
		
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I think the way to go for small yards is to set up track systems. Lots and lots and lots of leisure riders have under worked horses that just cannot cope with normal grazing. But you can run probably 5 x the horses on a track system than you could any other way on a small acreage. You can have them all of full livery but have much less work to actually do to keep them all happy and you are in charge of the day to day welfare so you know they all have good standards of care. You can then use your spare stables/acreage to bring in schooling/selling liveries to make your income up to a reasonable level. 

I seriously considered it 18 months ago, and even renting the property I could have covered my costs easily and made a small profit. i would still have kept my day job on, which would have been doable, but if I was able to back and school or do rehab livery etc, I could have made a reasonable living. In the end we bought a house so didnt pursue it, but I costed it out very carefully and it would have worked out considerably better than any other sort of livery in this area on rented property and completely subsided my horse.

Its not a dissimilar  business model to a previous poster who offers "expensive" but very good quality grass livery. At the end of the day, if you dont own the land and cant make traditional livery work then you need to look at alternatives that boost your income and reduce the labour, that can be large scale DIY or small scale grass livery for fatties. But for either of those you still need good facilities, and that is the crux point for a lot of people. There arent many places with good facilities and to put them in costs mega bucks!


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## SpottyMare (3 August 2016)

I've not been on here for a while and this is the first thread I clicked on.  OP - I don't blame you!  Running a yard seems to be quite a thankless task, and there does seem to be an expectation from some quarters that 'everyone' has a right to own a horse, regardless of whether they can afford it or not.  Although scrimping oneself to fulfil a dream of owning a horse, and expecting someone else to scrimp and reduce their charges for services that one wants provided are two entirely different things...

I love my livery yard.  It costs me £350 per month for 2 horses (inc hay but not bedding) DIY, with services provided as extras if you need them.  It has an adequate, small school and phenomenal hacking.  All year turn out.  No rules apart from checking your horse at least once a day.  Everything (hay making etc) is done in house.  The main benefit of this yard though, is the knowledge and experience of the owners, who are more than worth their weight in gold.  More to the point, the horses are happy.  I think it's a bargain, and if they put the prices up would stay there 

But then (even though I have never owned land etc) I understand that good services should not be undervalued.  It seems that more and more people don't consider the context of the service being provided, or understand that one is not just paying for a 'thing', but for all the other items that 'thing' is dependent on in order to exist.  Where one can see that the standard of care is high, and the surroundings are maintained well, then one shouldn't quibble over paying a fair price that allows the person working full time to make an income.  It's ridiculous.  I have to admit to being completely gobsmacked by the comment that you should only expect to make pocket money.  Really?  For providing a good service while working (probably) more hours than would be expected in an office job?  I'd be out of the building at warp speed should my employer ever suggest that to me...


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## marmalade76 (5 August 2016)

TYSSANDI said:



			Side line? poppycock!!  That is a joke it is a  FULL time job owning and running/working  a yard, how could we do another job in between of running a yard morning and after noon and evening???
		
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So why is the OP giving up? She's giving up because she can't make it pay. I'm not saying it's right, it's just the way it is. You could charge what you think it's worth, but you would have very little custom so the business would still be unsustainable.

 It can work as a sideline to another business, ie, farming, have the land, all the maintenance equipment  already owned and on site, own hay, straw, etc, that works. It can work if you own the property and you're business savvy, for example one of our customers - he insists all his liveries (40 box yard which he owns) buy all their hay from him. He buys all his hay from us and marks up every bale buy at least a pound and sells it to the liveries. He makes a pound or more on every bale without lifting a finger! That's good business!

As for a full time job, that's only if you do full or assisted, we have several friends and customers who do little more than collect the money and the odd bit of maintenance.


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## DD (7 August 2016)

Did livery many years ago. Made some good friends. Had others leave owing money. Wouldnt do it again.  Cant charge anything like enough.And on the topic of prices, some may remember buying hay years ago, mid 1970s. I discovered that what we were paying then for a small bale equates to around £10 per small bay today, get its available for £3 near to me. http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...tion-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html
sp hay should be £10 and straw £5 a small bale. We make our own hay and people ask us to do their small paddocks. no way, its just not worth the sweat and hastle. 
Used to get shavings for next to nothing though and now its around £7 a bale.


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## pixie (7 August 2016)

This has just come up on my facebook feed:

Excellent hacking/ post & rail fencing / 40 x 20 outdoor school / well maintained paddocks / jumps / toilet / central to competition venues.
Full Livery - 7 days a week, full muck out, turnout & bring in, rug change, hay, straw bedding, basic feed £60 a week.

How can that be viable?  How can yard owners charge anything like enough to cover their costs when people are charging so little?


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## palo1 (8 August 2016)

It's a really sad thing to say so tin hat on...'cheap' or averagely affordable livery often results in necessarily poor land and horse management and allows people who really, honestly cannot afford a horse to keep one. Not always, of course but the truth is that horses need decent, secure fencing, well managed ( whether rocket fuel or low energy native grass) grazing, safe shelter, appropriate hoof and health care and insurance or savings in case of veterinary needs. The cost of euthanasia is not even that cheap! That is before you even think of tack, rugs and any technical training or expertise you may need.   The last 20 years has seen an explosion in the number of leisure riders/novice horse owners, often hoping to keep horses on a shoestring. It can work, especially for experienced and knowledgeable people but as others have said, the basic necessities of keeping land in a decent state and feeding decent basic forage cost a lot of money. 

You see so many awful and sometimes even squalid livery yards, with miles of dangerous fencing, knackered grazing and poor, inappropriate feed being given, all to cater for owners who really perhaps can't afford a horse. It is almost impossible for a livery yard to provide anything sustainable, clean, safe and appropriate for horses at the level of cost that so many people have set as their limit. It must be  especially galling when livery owners/ managers,watch their clients buying smart New rugs, tack, treats etc, shoeing when not needed and forking out for expensive lessons or entering class after class at local shows.

Horses deserve decent care and those working in the industry deserve to be able to make a real living.  If more people were prepared to charge a sensible price for livery, it would probably make a significant improvement to horse and human welfare in so many ways. The industry and potential and existing owners need to get real about the real cost of keeping a horse, even in a very basic way.


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## pixie (9 August 2016)

And more and more yards will go out of business...


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## JillA (9 August 2016)

It's pretty much all employment in the equine industry, well, the hands on part anyway. 30 years ago a girl I know who had spent a year being treated like a slave working to learn in a well known local stables went to work in Germany. They value their stable staff there and she was well paid, given a car for her use, lovely accommodation, good working conditions and generally respected as a valued member of staff. 
Here this year someone I know who has her own yard, good horses, the best of everything including several foreign holidays a year (thanks to family money!) was offering below minimum wage for a relief groom to do stable chores (unsupervised) for a couple of days. I don't know if she found someone but there were people offering to do it for nothing because they were fans/friends. That's the reality yards here are up against


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## marmalade76 (24 August 2016)

Downton Dame said:



			Did livery many years ago. Made some good friends. Had others leave owing money. Wouldnt do it again.  Cant charge anything like enough.And on the topic of prices, some may remember buying hay years ago, mid 1970s. I discovered that what we were paying then for a small bale equates to around £10 per small bay today, get its available for £3 near to me. http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...tion-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html
sp hay should be £10 and straw £5 a small bale. We make our own hay and people ask us to do their small paddocks. no way, its just not worth the sweat and hastle. 
Used to get shavings for next to nothing though and now its around £7 a bale.
		
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Exactly! My husband makes hay and I would never dare work out how much per hour he earns doing it. If you took what it sells for and removed all costs  - machinery - cost of buying, maintenance, repairs, replacements like tyres, grease, oil, fuel, twine, insurance, buying grass crops (yes, it is a crop and you have to buy it if you don't own the land, grass is not free!) and paying people to help him, if you took the profit and divided it between all the hours he spends making it I'm sure he'd be on well under the minimum wage. You wouldn't work it out because if you did you'd give up! Why don't we charge what it's really worth? Because no one would buy it and the same applies to livery!


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## DD (24 August 2016)

Well said marmalade76


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## DD (24 August 2016)

palo1 said:



			It's a really sad thing to say so tin hat on...'cheap' or averagely affordable livery often results in necessarily poor land and horse management and allows people who really, honestly cannot afford a horse to keep one. Not always, of course but the truth is that horses need decent, secure fencing, well managed ( whether rocket fuel or low energy native grass) grazing, safe shelter, appropriate hoof and health care and insurance or savings in case of veterinary needs. The cost of euthanasia is not even that cheap! That is before you even think of tack, rugs and any technical training or expertise you may need.   The last 20 years has seen an explosion in the number of leisure riders/novice horse owners, often hoping to keep horses on a shoestring. It can work, especially for experienced and knowledgeable people but as others have said, the basic necessities of keeping land in a decent state and feeding decent basic forage cost a lot of money. 

You see so many awful and sometimes even squalid livery yards, with miles of dangerous fencing, knackered grazing and poor, inappropriate feed being given, all to cater for owners who really perhaps can't afford a horse. It is almost impossible for a livery yard to provide anything sustainable, clean, safe and appropriate for horses at the level of cost that so many people have set as their limit. It must be  especially galling when livery owners/ managers,watch their clients buying smart New rugs, tack, treats etc, shoeing when not needed and forking out for expensive lessons or entering class after class at local shows.

Horses deserve decent care and those working in the industry deserve to be able to make a real living.  If more people were prepared to charge a sensible price for livery, it would probably make a significant improvement to horse and human welfare in so many ways. The industry and potential and existing owners need to get real about the real cost of keeping a horse, even in a very basic way.
		
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^^^^^^
great post. Agree.


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## dominobrown (24 August 2016)

Downton Dame said:



			^^^^^^
great post. Agree.
		
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Seconded!


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (24 August 2016)

This whole thread just somehow makes me feel very sad........ we seem to be in an age of instant this, instant that, and good old-fashioned Horsemen of the old school (and I naturally include women in that) seem to be light-years away now.

I am talking about the people I looked up to in my youth: the DC's of the Pony Club, the people that had grown up with horses and ridden before they could walk, and would tell you what a horse was going to do before it knew itself. Natural horsemanship (the real stuff) through and through, but no-one called it that then, coz it meant that good horses were bred then and not a lot of rubbish, horses were kept at yards where people knew what they were doing, people learnt to ride properly and not just the slap-on-the-saddle and flop your backside across the saddle style of nowadays.

I think the OP is one of these very precious people who are unfortunately a dying breed. People expect a full livery service at DIY rates!! and the horses are the ones who suffer.

I just despair sometimes, I really do........


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## Roasted Chestnuts (24 August 2016)

There have been many great and valid points made on this thread. I so have on gripe, the people who slate cheaper livery, those who say it allows unsuitable people to keep horses, yes it may but it also helps people like myself on low incomes keep their horses and make sure they have everything they need. I must have a one in a million yard that is both cheap, safe, great grazing, barefoot orientated, beautiful hay made on site by the farmer and an stable ideal for my horse and all affordable to one one on a single income of less that 18k and who is living in a private sector rented flat and has to run a car. Trust me it's a bloody hard exercise. My boy would have to be PTS if I wasn't able to find a yard as good and cheap as mine is. It's a godsend. 

Maybe down in England things are different but up here we seem to have more of a choice I'd you are willing to compromise.


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## marmalade76 (25 August 2016)

Black Beastie said:



			There have been many great and valid points made on this thread. I so have on gripe, the people who slate cheaper livery, those who say it allows unsuitable people to keep horses, yes it may but it also helps people like myself on low incomes keep their horses and make sure they have everything they need. I must have a one in a million yard that is both cheap, safe, great grazing, barefoot orientated, beautiful hay made on site by the farmer and an stable ideal for my horse and all affordable to one one on a single income of less that 18k and who is living in a private sector rented flat and has to run a car. Trust me it's a bloody hard exercise. My boy would have to be PTS if I wasn't able to find a yard as good and cheap as mine is. It's a godsend. 

Maybe down in England things are different but up here we seem to have more of a choice I'd you are willing to compromise.
		
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It does seem that those of us who keep our horses on a budget are being made to feel bad about it. I also have to keep mine on a budget but am in a different position, due to my husband's contacts I am able to keep mine on a friend's farm so don't have to use a livery yard but if it weren't for that I'd be the same as you.


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## DD (25 August 2016)

reading JillA's thread I can understand just why the YM of this thread is giving up. Nightmare.


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## honetpot (25 August 2016)

There is nothing wrong with keeping horses on a budget, in my experience a lot of what people think they need is totally unnecessary and more due to fashion and peer pressure.
  Its when people expect a facilities or a service and are not prepared to pay the provider what they need to cover their costs and hopefully make some sort of profit.
  A farmer with and integrated business that uses land they already own and hay they already produce may be able provide a cheaper product, which is great but with land prices and rents  as they are that can not be a normal situation.
  I can remember 40 years ago when I got my first pony, hay was £1 a bale and my grass livery rent was £5 a week. and we had second sets of shoes at £5 at set. My vets call out was £18, but it covered the first half hour. I think its actually more affordable to keep a horse now.


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## SEL (25 August 2016)

Having relocated and moved to my current yard it amazes me how many people want to keep horses on cheap livery but are happy to splash out on yet another colour coordinated set of rugs, numnahs blah, blah, blah. One of my horses is expensive to keep because of her dietary requirements so that's where my money goes. She has rugs picked up in the sales and only when her other ones don't do their job any longer. If I need the yard to do work for me I don't begrudge paying them for it (the £2 for hanging hay nets out so I can have a lie in on a Saturday is absolutely worth it!).

But I'm in the minority at the yard where most of the DIY liveries seem to expect the yard to bring their horses in for the farrier, vet etc for free. If they go on holiday they ask other liveries to keep an eye on their horse, but then its the yard who have to step in if something goes wrong. We have horses left in fields for days on end without their owners checking up on them.

Any suggestion of the livery fees going up is met by 'but the facilities here aren't good enough' - which is true (fencing & field management is shocking), but its a bit of a vicious circle. Without liveries properly paying their way the yard will never have enough cash to reinvest.


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