# Dog breeds known for their health.....



## {97702} (4 April 2020)

Please can someone recommend a breed which is known for its health? Just curious 😊


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2020)

Jackawawadoodlecocklepug?

Hybrids are healthier, innit!


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## {97702} (4 April 2020)

CorvusCorax said:



			Jackawawadoodlecocklepug?

Hybrids are healthier, innit!
		
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Don’t tell me - someone told you that sometime so now you repeat it as gospel? 🙄 Really CC, I would hope for better from you.... tsk tsk.....


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## Mrs. Jingle (4 April 2020)

Definitely don't subscribe to the Jackawawadoodlecocklepug theory (or should I say marketing ploy  )  However I have had a fair few Heinz 57 mutts over the years that never cost me a penny more than normal vaccs etc. for their entire long and robust life. Some of my pure bred dogs however have come close to emptying my bank account, or rather the vet that treated them has!


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## Tiddlypom (4 April 2020)

Any breed that is not eligible for KC registration.


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2020)

Like 'pocket mini bullies'? Or 'teacup' anythings?


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## {97702} (4 April 2020)

CorvusCorax said:



			Like 'pocket mini bullies'? Or 'teacup' anythings?
		
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They do pocket mini bullies now??? Seriously??? 😳😳😳


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## Meowy Catkin (4 April 2020)

When I was young  I can remember that a lot of people had very attractive mongrels that were black and tan (like a chunky, courser furred Doberman, although what breeds were in them I have no idea). I can't remember any of those dogs struggling to breathe or dying young.

Where have the b&t mongrels gone? I haven't seen one for years.


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2020)

And back then all the dogs ran in a pack and had surnames 😂 and lived on brown bread and black tea.

'Rex Wilson, get away back to your own house now!'


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## gryff (4 April 2020)

My lurchers have lived to 19, 16 and I have a 15 year old who has just come back from a 10k walk. None of them have suffered from any major ailments. My girl who died at 19 needed a whole lot of stitches at various times as a youngster,  but that's about all.


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## blackcob (4 April 2020)

I realise I am probably not taking this thread in the spirit in which it was intended  but there is a whole list of dog breeds I wouldn't touch with a bargepole, not least of which anything with a disease named after it and anything one's boss refers to as a 'cancer factory'.


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## Meowy Catkin (4 April 2020)

I don't know about bread and tea... but the ones at the riding school were each given a fresh (uncooked) egg for 'breakfast' every day.


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2020)

Mine had a raw egg, including the shell, daily for years until he retired, and was in no need of further rocket fuel 

My Nan mashed up bread and table scraps with milk or tea in a big old saucepan and it was dished out to whatever carnivores happened to be living on the premises at the time.


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## Meowy Catkin (4 April 2020)

Oh yes they had all the scraps (riding school was on a farm) and loved it when the farrier came for the ponies. They pretty much stood over the farrier to eat the clipped off bits of hoof as it was trimmed off and hit the floor!


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## {97702} (4 April 2020)

My bloody lurchers have been at the vet endlessly, far far more than any greyhound I’ve had - I’m never having another one after Millie goes!

George is an absolute Heinz 57 terrier love him, and has a number of health issues that I’ve never encountered in pure bred breeds before such as his partially collapsed larynx (which admittedly may be attributable to poor lead training when he was young, bearing in mind how he walks on a lead now 🙄😂)

The oldest I’ve ever had a dog live to was 14 for my first whippet - she and all her litter had heart issues, which was what she died off in the end.  None of my non-KC registered greyhounds have made it beyond 13 (and that was one of them - lost all the others at 12 or less) 😢😢😢

I see my mum’s notoriously unhealthy-doesn’t-everyone-know-how-many-health-issues-the-breed-has cavaliers regularly live healthy and active live to 14/15 years old.

Weird.....


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## {97702} (4 April 2020)

blackcob said:



			I realise I am probably not taking this thread in the spirit in which it was intended  but there is a whole list of dog breeds I wouldn't touch with a bargepole, not least of which anything with a disease named after it and anything one's boss refers to as a 'cancer factory'.
		
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Which breed has a disease named after it? I’m wracking my brains now 😂


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## cobgoblin (4 April 2020)

I've had a number of really healthy mongrels in the past.. Proper mongrels that no human had tried to 'design'.

Do they exist any more?


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## blackcob (4 April 2020)

I was thinking westie itch!  But more loosely any dog breed which you think of and immediately associate with a condition because you've seen so many with the same thing. I find it especially sad when folk lose a dog to a disease, go out and buy another of the same breed and it ends up with the same a few years down the line.


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## {97702} (4 April 2020)

blackcob said:



			I was thinking westie itch!  But more loosely any dog breed which you think of and immediately associate with a condition because you've seen so many with the same thing. I find it especially sad when folk lose a dog to a disease, go out and buy another of the same breed and it ends up with the same a few years down the line.
		
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Wow I haven’t even heard of that! Not that I’ve really investigated owning a westie 😊

I agree, I do wonder about anyone who doesn’t do a bit of research before they get a dog....or cat....or horse...or whatever? Unless they are an idiot like me of course who just sees a rescue dog and says ‘oh, how cute! Yes, I’ll have it!’ 😳😳😳😳


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## Errin Paddywack (4 April 2020)

It is tragic that some really lovely breeds are very prone to cancer and have very short lives on average.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (4 April 2020)

Levrier said:



			They do pocket mini bullies now??? Seriously??? 😳😳😳
		
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yes, and they're horrible things. Height is probably 1ft, sometimes less.. screams hip and elbow issues to me, in fact all joints. God knows how it gives birth.


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2020)

Close gene pools (or the wrong gene pools) don't help (and I say that coming from probably the most manipulated-by-humans breed on the planet.


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## Meowy Catkin (4 April 2020)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			yes, and they're horrible things. Height is probably 1ft, sometimes less.. screams hip and elbow issues to me, in fact all joints. God knows how it gives birth.

View attachment 43508

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I don't know what to say... 

As a side issue, can anyone explain to me the cropped ears? *I just don't 'get it'*


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2020)

Cause it looks well'ard


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## Cortez (4 April 2020)

America, I'm guessing, for the misfortunate deformed, cropped-ear example above?


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2020)

They are available in the UK as well, cropped.


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## {97702} (4 April 2020)

Ah I took it literally to mean a pocket mini EBT! That thing in the photo is grotesque.... poor animal 😢😢😢


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## Aru (4 April 2020)

All breeds have some issues it's generally a matter of the severity and degree of the issues seen within the breed.

I'm a terrible person ask me a breed and I'l give a pros and cons list. Apparently I ruin breeds for people all the time.

If you had to ask me what I thought was the healthiest breed in the world....

Greyhound most likely

Australian cattle dogs or Kelpies are pretty high on the list but hard work

Finnish lapphund


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## {97702} (4 April 2020)

Aru said:



			All breeds have some issues it's generally a matter of the severity and degree of the issues seen within the breed.

I'm a terrible person ask me a breed and I'l give a pros and cons list. Apparently I ruin breeds for people all the time.

If you had to ask me what I thought was the healthiest breed in the world....

Greyhound most likely

Australian cattle dogs or Kelpies are pretty high on the list but hard work

Finnish lapphund 

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Hmmmm a faint breed bias there possibly? 😉😄😄

I could also name health issues with pretty much every breed going, it always surprises me how much some breeds have a ‘reputation’ which can be repeatedly shared by those who clearly have little or no knowledge or exposure to that breed when other breeds with just as many issues are deemed to be ‘ok’ 😳

I’m on greyhound numbers 6 and 7 now (I think? Could be 7 and 8??) and sadly I don’t think of them as a healthy breed at all 😞


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## splashgirl45 (4 April 2020)

Meowy Catkin said:



			When I was young  I can remember that a lot of people had very attractive mongrels that were black and tan (like a chunky, courser furred Doberman, although what breeds were in them I have no idea). I can't remember any of those dogs struggling to breathe or dying young.

Where have the b&t mongrels gone? I haven't seen one for years.
		
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our family aways had mongrels, usually black and tan markings like a dobie,  the one i got when i was young came from a stall in petticoat lane, lived till 15 and was never ill, brilliant little dog.  i now have a border collie/lab who has been very healthy and is almost 14 and the only thing apart from cuts and scrapes was when she had an attack of vestibular syndrome last year, my lurcher who was whippet/bedlington/bearded collie was PTS at almost 13 as she had arthritic hips... my latest dog is a heinz 57 and i know which breeds are in the mix, his dad was chi/jack russell and mum was patterdale/border terrier/lhasa apso/yorkshire terrier, so 6 breeds in all, he seems to have a cast iron stomach and is now just over 3 but hoping he will make old bones....


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## ester (4 April 2020)

My auntie had a black and tan mongrel when we were growing up, I can't work out what she might have actually been


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## Aru (4 April 2020)

Levrier said:



			Hmmmm a faint breed bias there possibly? 😉😄😄

I could also name health issues with pretty much every breed going, it always surprises me how much some breeds have a ‘reputation’ which can be repeatedly shared by those who clearly have little or no knowledge or exposure to that breed when other breeds with just as many issues are deemed to be ‘ok’ 😳

I’m on greyhound numbers 6 and 7 now (I think? Could be 7 and 8??) and sadly I don’t think of them as a healthy breed at all 😞
		
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Partly breed bias for the lappies definitely they are my choice to own and breed  ....partly as It took me a very very long time to find a breed I felt comfortable being involved in breeding so  health was on my list of non negotiable  requirements. Thankfully the scandi's have been into health testing their breeding animals for a very long time!

All dogs have to die of something so I do also judge regards the ages that we see issues as well as size and shape related ones.

The big thing I judge a breed on is how often we are seeing them die young of genetic disease or dealing with chronic lifelong health issues....particularly when they are seen as a norm within a breed.

I think your mother sounds like she breeds amazing Cavaliers....But as a overall breed they have the reputation for a reason. They are the number one dog breed for mitral valve disease and it's genetic. Its a pity because they are actually cracking little dogs and make great family pets....But when I listen to one over 7 and don't hear a murmur ...it's a surprise...as its the exception to the norm. I'm glad there are still lines out there making old bones. I can think of 3 Cavy patients off the top of my head at the moment I'm managing for advanced cardiac disease...none of them are over 11...and I work in a small practice and they are not a very common breed here versus the uk and Ireland. That's not ideal.

This is often the issue with popular breeds though....the excellently bred ones from reputable responsible breeders are often world's apart from the overall standard production model(for want of a better way to explain that).


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## Cinnamontoast (4 April 2020)

Surely the only way to try to ensure healthy dogs is to have all the recommended tests done and consider the breeding co-efficients? Even then, nothing is 100%.

Whilst I’d prefer a pup from health tested lines next time, lots of working lines don’t bother with them. I’d never go back to the current boys’ breeder, but I can’t fault their intelligence, trainability and bar the werewolf’s horrible da, they have fabulous characters. They’re incredibly affectionate, proper velcro dogs.



Meowy Catkin said:



			When I was young  I can remember that a lot of people had very attractive mongrels that were black and tan (like a chunky, courser furred Doberman, although what breeds were in them I have no idea). I can't remember any of those dogs struggling to breathe or dying young.

Where have the b&t mongrels gone? I haven't seen one for years.
		
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A friend had one about 15 years ago, proper Black and Tan lad, lovely temperament. She’s now switched to rescue greys, one died recently of cancer. 😢 I’m hoping her new one stays healthy.



Meowy Catkin said:



			Oh yes they had all the scraps (riding school was on a farm) and loved it when the farrier came for the ponies. They pretty much stood over the farrier to eat the clipped off bits of hoof as it was trimmed off and hit the floor!
		
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Our yard dogs just pick through any bits the farrier leaves, as soon as he trims a hoof, the pieces are gone.


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## blackcob (4 April 2020)

Aru said:



			Partly breed bias for the lappies definitely they are my choice to own and breed  ....partly as It took me a very very long time to find a breed I felt comfortable being involved in breeding so  health was on my list of non negotiable  requirements. Thankfully the scandi's have been into health testing their breeding animals for a very long time!
		
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I think pointy-eared spitzy type things are generally a safe bet (not smug at all...)


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## splashgirl45 (4 April 2020)

the picture of that dog makes me feel ill,  it is so deformed, poor thing..


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## Aru (4 April 2020)

blackcob said:



			I think pointy-eared spitzy type things are generally a safe bet (not smug at all...) 

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The main problem with them...is having to live with them 🤣🤣 I like to describe mine as the couch potato version of the husky at times. 

The eye issues in some of the Spitz types particularly the huskys and malamutes are a growing concern though  

I'm bias in my love for the primitive style breeds though. Fit for original function does matter imo.


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## meleeka (4 April 2020)

I think terriers are less prone to things than a lot of other breeds.  Our old JRT was 21 when he just laid down and died I’d I’ve known a few live to over 18.


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## Aru (4 April 2020)

Cinnamontoast said:



			Surely the only way to try to ensure healthy dogs is to have all the recommended tests done and consider the breeding co-efficients? Even then, nothing is 100%.
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It definately helps. The other thing that actually matters quite a lot is being willing to open the studbook to add new blood if they meet the criteria to reduce inbreeding. 
Again only able to go from my own breed knowledge but the Lapphund registration in Finland still are accepting new blood to the breed if they pass a panel to prove type. There also does need to be better control on the popular sire issues (again though the scandi's are ahead of us there to and have rules on that!)
 We are bottle necking a lot of breeds and increasing the genetic risk issues but being to strict and unyielding when it comes to pedigree lines/ conformation versus health. Look at the dalmations for an example of what careful outcrossing can do for example they bred out the gene that cases bladder stones by adding anorher breed.......and that was massively controversial when it initially occurred. 
The Doberman is a sad example of this. They do not have the diversity to remove heart issues from the breed by breeding it out alone. 

But the main issue is.....responsible breeders are quite rare  backyard and commercial breeding is more common.


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## {97702} (4 April 2020)

Aru said:



			But the main issue is.....responsible breeders are quite rare  backyard and commercial breeding is more common.
		
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That’s the key to the whole thing isn’t it - oh and having a Kennel Club that actually gives a stuff about promoting healthy examples of pure bred dogs, which the UK KC most definitely does not 😞


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## DabDab (4 April 2020)

meleeka said:



			I think terriers are less prone to things than a lot of other breeds.  Our old JRT was 21 when he just laid down and died I’d I’ve known a few live to over 18.
		
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Yeah I was going to say jrt. Every yard had one when I was younger (though I suppose they were just considered mongrels then), and most had been in a lot of scrapes, given precious little veterinary care and all seemed to get to late teens. My current Jack russelly thing is under strict instructions that she is to live until she is 20.


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2020)

Luxating patella, epilepsy? Not criticism, just playing Devil's avacado.


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## DabDab (4 April 2020)

CorvusCorax said:



			Luxating patella, epilepsy? Not criticism, just playing Devil's avacado.
		
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Didn't know they were particularly prone to those things. I was thinking bad teeth and eye problems were the main things. I've never personally known one with epilepsy


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2020)

Most Jrts round here skip!


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## {97702} (4 April 2020)

CorvusCorax said:



			Most Jrts round here skip!
		
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Yep - George paces constantly as well, but then he is the most appallingly constructed dog I’ve ever seen 😄 (apart from maybe that grotesque one posted further up the thread!!!)


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## druid (4 April 2020)

The breeds with a "sporting" requirement and no split between working/show types are the most healthy in my experience. You couldn't pay me to own a Boxer - preordained cancer

@Cinnamontoast there's not many but they do exist - Quincegrove and Sgurr kennels spring to mind. I've also got a littler of FTW x FTW pups from fully tested parents on the ground (all sold)


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2020)

druid said:



			The breeds with a "sporting" requirement and no split between working/show types are the most healthy in my experience. You couldn't pay me to own a Boxer - preordained cancer
		
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There's a small but active working boxer scene on the continent, I wonder if they have fewer issues?


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## DabDab (4 April 2020)

Levrier said:



			Yep - George paces constantly as well, but then he is the most appallingly constructed dog I’ve ever seen 😄 (apart from maybe that grotesque one posted further up the thread!!!)
		
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Paces because he has epilepsy?

I can't visualise the skipping reference...?


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## meleeka (4 April 2020)

CorvusCorax said:



			Most Jrts round here skip!
		
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 But they don’t appear to be at all bothered by it, or at least the ones I’ve known.


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## {97702} (4 April 2020)

DabDab said:



			Paces because he has epilepsy?

I can't visualise the skipping reference...?
		
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No sorry, he paces because he has almost certainly got luxating patellas (used to be called slipping stifle in my young day....)


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## {97702} (4 April 2020)

meleeka said:



			But they don’t appear to be at all bothered by it, or at least the ones I’ve known.
		
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None of the dogs that I’ve known with cardiac disease have been remotely bothered by it either 😊


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2020)

meleeka said:



			But they don’t appear to be at all bothered by it, or at least the ones I’ve known.
		
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The question is about overall health though? I don't regard not fully weightbearing as 'healthy'.


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2020)

Damn you Druid, I'm now watching videos from the Atibox world championships instead of walking my own 😂


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## blackcob (4 April 2020)

My childhood JRT skipped, he also had a magnificent set of Queen Anne legs. The show type JRTs you get in the ring now make me smile, they look lovely wee dogs but are so far removed from the (and I say this with the greatest affection, in remembrance of that childhood dog!) bow-legged, block-headed, short-legged, merrily skipping terriers that everyone has round here as to be a completely different breed.


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## {97702} (4 April 2020)

blackcob said:



			My childhood JRT skipped, he also had a magnificent set of Queen Anne legs. The show type JRTs you get in the ring now make me smile, they look lovely wee dogs but are so far removed from the (and I say this with the greatest affection, in remembrance of that childhood dog!) bow-legged, block-headed, short-legged, merrily skipping terriers that everyone has round here as to be a completely different breed.
		
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Anyone would think the kennel club had got involved 😂😂😂

I find George fascinating I have to admit, I’ve never seen a dog with such puny tiny little legs and such a massive body! My mum kept lecturing me that he was far too fat (from photos) until she met him for the first time - he has a massive spring of rib and is shaped like a little barrel 😂 Anyone remember the Moog from Willo the Wisp?

https://images.app.goo.gl/cYpSGTZAnmnade549


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## twiggy2 (4 April 2020)

The kennel club has an awful lot to answer for


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## meggymoo (4 April 2020)

Levrier said:



			My bloody lurchers have been at the vet endlessly, far far more than any greyhound I’ve had - I’m never having another one after Millie goes!
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Famous last words! We know what a softy you are!


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## rara007 (4 April 2020)

Also Westie Lung Dz and Pug Dog Encephalitis...!
I think Im tainted, not sure I can think of a healthy breed I’ve come across any number of...!

Loads of pocket Americans bulldogs in Essex now, they’re the new frenchie 

Add dental disease and atopy to the luxating patellas of JRTs!


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## Cinnamontoast (4 April 2020)

druid said:



@Cinnamontoast there's not many but they do exist - Quincegrove and Sgurr kennels spring to mind. I've also got a littler of FTW x FTW pups from fully tested parents on the ground (all sold)
		
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I thought Sgurr had stopped breeding? Or was that another kennel? One that produces tris?

Im definitively not looking for a pup until the current two have gone. We need a hard re-set, I don’t want a pup seeing Zak’s behaviour and imitating him. They’re only 10 and seem very healthy still.


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## DabDab (4 April 2020)

Levrier said:



			No sorry, he paces because he has almost certainly got luxating patellas (used to be called slipping stifle in my young day....)
		
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Ah, gotcha, and that's the skip that CC was referring to too. That makes more sense.


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## DabDab (4 April 2020)

rara007 said:



			Also Westie Lung Dz and Pug Dog Encephalitis...!
I think Im tainted, not sure I can think of a healthy breed I’ve come across any number of...!

Loads of pocket Americans bulldogs in Essex now, they’re the new frenchie 

Add dental disease and atopy to the luxating patellas of JRTs!
		
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Haha, yes I already added dental problems.


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## Leo Walker (4 April 2020)

Meowy Catkin said:



			I don't know about bread and tea... but the ones at the riding school were each given a fresh (uncooked) egg for 'breakfast' every day. 

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Mine get a small egg most days. The boys of raw fed dogs and endlessly laying mini chickens!

I don't want to jinx anything but my whippets seem surprisingly tough. Neither are KC and are working bred, one def has a dash of something else in him as well. Thyev never had stitches either, and I have patched them up myself a few times. No known heart problems either. When Dylan was racing fit the vet used to get very excited when he came in as he had a really slow heart rate as he was so fit. Now he's a middle aged couch potato its not quite the same!


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## meleeka (4 April 2020)

Leo Walker said:



			I don't want to jinx anything but my whippets seem surprisingly tough. Neither are KC and are working bred,
		
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I think that’s probably the crux of it.  Non KC registered dogs do generally seem healthier, probably because of the wider gene pool, and especially if they have a bit of something else in them.


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2020)

If they're dogs not registered and there's no paperwork/testing/pedigree/ID/microchips how to we safeguard against close family inbreeding in the community? Whether mutts or not.
Again it's just a question I'm throwing open for debate. How do we know Bonzo isn't Fido and he's mated his sister? Or is inbreeding only bad in pedigree dogs?


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## planete (4 April 2020)

Lurchers bred by a fast diminishing population of 'dogmen'  who worked them, knew their lines and, either culled substandard ones or removed them from the hunting community.  It did not stop some of the dogs killing themselves while working of course but the ruthless selection kept the lines healthy.  There are still some around but the pups are in great demand from knowledgeable people, booked in advance, and not often advertised.


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2020)

My trainer would have said something similar about hounds. If it can't work, it's no good and is removed from the gene pool. No health testing. Similarly the service or sports dogs back in the day. If they could clear a pallisade, they were healthy.


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## {97702} (4 April 2020)

They weren’t my sort (being proper lurchers not long dogs) but Hancock lurchers were always a thing a few years ago? I think they were beardie x long dog types?

I don’t know any more having reflected on this all afternoon, maybe my expectations are too high 😳 I cannot think of a single breed without some health issues, even every mongrel I’ve had has had health issues of some kind related to one of its ancestors (bad teeth, poor conformation, dodgy temperament...) 

Perhaps I’ll stop looking for ‘perfection’ and enjoy all the gorgeous rescues I have 🙄❤️❤️


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## rara007 (4 April 2020)

Everything has to die of something!


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## Moobli (4 April 2020)

Aru said:



			All breeds have some issues it's generally a matter of the severity and degree of the issues seen within the breed.

I'm a terrible person ask me a breed and I'l give a pros and cons list. Apparently I ruin breeds for people all the time.

If you had to ask me what I thought was the healthiest breed in the world....

Greyhound most likely

Australian cattle dogs or Kelpies are pretty high on the list but hard work

Finnish lapphund 

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ACDs, Kelpie, Malinois keep appearing on the list of breeds I think I’d like to own.  But maybe the idea is better than the reality 😂


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2020)

As any HHOer who has seen him in person or on video  will know, my older GSD is extremely robust, touch wood. 

I've had them all my life and have chosen lines/dogs well IMO, dogs which have lived to old bones, apart from two littermates, one who was very poorly as a pup and had a litany of issues in his short life, bless him, and a sister who was physically healthy but absolutely cuckoo mentally.
The information was available as regards the male's issues, in hindsight, I now know what to avoid.

Current dog is nine and comes from lines known to be healthy and long lived. A big factor for me also is that he is compact and small to medium sized as per the breed standard. 
However the flipside is that his energy and joy de vivre would make him an even bigger pain in the behind for the average pet owner.

'Big dogs break' in my experience with GSDs and the trend for oversized/heavily built animals on both working and show sides of the house has a lot to answer for.
They're not and never were a giant breed and they shouldn't have heads like chows but all I see on Facebook is people cooing over knuckle and bone.
And the 'old fashioned, big boned, straight backed' sales pitch amongst pet breeders who think that this somehow negates the possibility hip dysplasia and boast of how tall and heavy their dogs are is an utter nonsense, indeed there is more pressure on the joint.
People remember bigger dogs as kids because *they* were smaller.


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## ponyparty (4 April 2020)

I may be biased, but Manchester Terriers have few health issues without the breed. Parents should be test for VWD (Same as dobes) but other than that they’re a pretty hardy lot. 
That’s one of the reasons I went for one; plus they’re a rare native breed, super intelligent, and stunning to look at. Bonus is they hate water and mud and are super easy to keep clean! Hard work in the adolescent stage but then most are..!


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## {97702} (4 April 2020)

rara007 said:



			Everything has to die of something!
		
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*says in Eeyore like manner...** 

that has become more apparent since I’ve turned 50 🙄😂😂😂


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## DabDab (4 April 2020)

What I always find curious about the trend of describing whole breeds as 'unhealthy' in dogs is that there isn't the same tendency to describe whole horse breeds as unhealthy in the same way. Why is that?


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2020)

And why it's ok to train one with pressure and release, but in the other it's 'abuse/cruel'.
((Runs and hides))


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## druid (4 April 2020)

ponyparty said:



			I may be biased, but Manchester Terriers have few health issues without the breed. Parents should be test for VWD (Same as dobes) but other than that they’re a pretty hardy lot.
That’s one of the reasons I went for one; plus they’re a rare native breed, super intelligent, and stunning to look at. Bonus is they hate water and mud and are super easy to keep clean! Hard work in the adolescent stage but then most are..!
		
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Hereditary Von Willebrand's and increasing number with kidney issues linked to one bloodline. I wish someone would tell mine she's supposed to hate water and mud...!!


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## druid (4 April 2020)

DabDab said:



			What I always find curious about the trend of describing whole breeds as 'unhealthy' in dogs is that there isn't the same tendency to describe whole horse breeds as unhealthy in the same way. Why is that?
		
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Talk to your equine vet, believe me we have some opinions...!!! The one's that pain me most are halter QHs, I hate treating them


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## ester (4 April 2020)

Because more horses have to do a job than dogs.
apart from halter QHs. 
and the likely hypermobility fall out in warmbloods might hit at some point.


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## DabDab (4 April 2020)

druid said:



			Talk to your equine vet, believe me we have some opinions...!!! The one's that pain me most are halter QHs, I hate treating them
		
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But whole breeds are not known as unhealthy in the same way and there isn't the same stigma associated with owning certain breeds as a result. 

I couldn't ever bring myself to own a traditional cob because of the skin conditions and tendency to be obese, but if someone talks about buying one there won't be a queue of people to tell them how awfully unhealthy that breed is.


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## blackcob (4 April 2020)

Is there less emphasis on pure horse breeds in general...? Bearing in mind this is coming from someone who has old happy hackers at home, and has otherwise been out of the horse world for a long time, so there's every chance I'm wrong. 

I get the impression that for the average horse owner the actual breed is less important than size or intended function, and there's no stigma associated with crossbreeds or general 'types', as long as it does what it's needed to do.

Plus you don't get brachycephalic/chondrodystrophic horses in nearly the same way as you do dogs, even the most ill bred horse can generally run and breathe...! 

Interesting about Von Willebrands, the schip club offer a rebate to encourage testing and hold their own database, though the KC don't publish results. I have often wondered why they encourage it as it's not a known problem in the breed. They are robustly healthy little shites, though the gene pool is frighteningly small.


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## meleeka (4 April 2020)

freisian horses are known for health issues.  Again, a fairly small gene pool.  

most horse breeds have a bit of something else in there somewhere down the line, which probably makes them healthier in the long run I think.


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## {97702} (4 April 2020)

As a lay person I would observe that there seem to be a tendency to categorise (for example) show horses as unhealthy rather than a particular breed? Are there fewer examples of each pure breed being shown than there are with dogs??

I’m fed up with seeing overweight/obese show horses/cobs - in the same way I’m fed up with seeing overweight/obese/not fit for purpose hounds in the show ring


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## Clodagh (4 April 2020)

Foxhounds, harriers or beagles from a proper hunt. Not that you would want to live with them, but they’d stay sound!


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## scats (4 April 2020)

Sorry, not read all the replies but I’ve always found a good old mutt tends to last longer, or at least run into less trouble!

We have 3 cross breeds.  Our oldest is an 11 year old Dane x Husky.  She’s slowing down a bit now but we’ve been so lucky with her that she’s had no real issues in her life.

My friend hasn’t had several German Shephards and they’ve had numerous health problems.  The KC registered ones legs went and he struggled in his last few years.  The non-KC registered one was diagnosed with dog lupus and died aged 7.  He had suffered from health issues all his life as a result of the lupus- needed his toe amputated, suffered with ear infections and sores.  He died from an undiagnosed tumour on his spleen that burst one morning.  By the time my friend got him in the car and to the vet, he was dying.  Fortunately they managed to end his suffering, but it was a very traumatic experience for the family.


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## ponyparty (4 April 2020)

druid said:



			Hereditary Von Willebrand's and increasing number with kidney issues linked to one bloodline. I wish someone would tell mine she's supposed to hate water and mud...!! 

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Ah yes the kidney issues thing. That’s a fairly recent discovery if I remember rightly? Seem to recall some drama on the fb group, I left it not long after that so I’m not really in the loop any more.

OMG yours likes mud and water?! 😱 don’t get me wrong, Frank would pursue a ball or quarry through mud/water/fire - but when just walking/sniffing around he always chooses not to get his feet wet and finds a way round 🙂 and good luck getting him to go outside to pee or poop if it’s raining 🤣


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2020)

scats said:



			He died from an undiagnosed tumour on his spleen that burst one morning.  By the time my friend got him in the car and to the vet, he was dying.  Fortunately they managed to end his suffering, but it was a very traumatic experience for the family.
		
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I lost one at ten to Hemangiosarcoma, also knew nothing until it was too late, it's present in a number of breeds sadly.


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## scats (4 April 2020)

CorvusCorax said:



			I lost one at ten to Hemangiosarcoma, also knew nothing until it was too late, it's present in a number of breeds sadly.
		
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Awful isn’t it.  The vet said it was actually really common and a lot of dogs die of it.  I think my friends poor dog was just one very unlucky chap in general. He spent most of his life on medication for various things.  Really sad.  He was such a lovely gentle chap and he didn’t deserve any of it.


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## windand rain (4 April 2020)

My friend breeds Cavaliers her seem to live long acive lives often making mid to late teens still fit and healthy mind you they are all health tested, eyes hearts joints etc even have MRI for syrinx problems so I guess her crusade to rid the breed of ts awful reputation will one day be rewarded. I like gundogs and mostly have never had much go wrong upto about 12. The dog with the greatest longevity was my Newfoundland bitch she lived until she was nearly 17 one of the oldest if not the oldest newfie ever She had a lot of puppies always big litters and was never spayed


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## ester (4 April 2020)

I think for most of the more human-developed horse breeds there has probably been more permitted cross overs/use of non-studbook reg. animals than there has been in dogs too? Or at least more recently in time? You can use most of the TBs/warmbloods and have various registration options for instance. 

I'm always surprised that the older 'heritage' breeds with now small numbers or breeding animals don't seem to have issues - unless I've just not heard of them. (not friesians, thinking more suffolks etc)


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## ihatework (4 April 2020)

ponyparty said:



			I may be biased, but Manchester Terriers have few health issues without the breed. Parents should be test for VWD (Same as dobes) but other than that they’re a pretty hardy lot.
That’s one of the reasons I went for one; plus they’re a rare native breed, super intelligent, and stunning to look at. Bonus is they hate water and mud and are super easy to keep clean! Hard work in the adolescent stage but then most are..!
		
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Mine died of acute kidney failure at 7 years old. Breeders told me it’s a known thing in MTs and there was research being done at AHT.

That said I agree they are wonderful dogs.


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## suebou (4 April 2020)

Our working don’t seem to have much wrong with them.......


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## ponyparty (4 April 2020)

ihatework said:



			Mine died of acute kidney failure at 7 years old. Breeders told me it’s a known thing in MTs and there was research being done at AHT.

That said I agree they are wonderful dogs.
		
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that’s awful and so sad. They are cracking little dogs. I do remember something being mentioned now, in the last year or so, about kidney failure. I don’t suppose you could share what bloodlines your MT was from? By pm if you prefer. 

as far as I’m aware though, most of them do live a fairly long life, 15-17 years seeming quite common


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## ihatework (4 April 2020)

ponyparty said:



			that’s awful and so sad. They are cracking little dogs. I do remember something being mentioned now, in the last year or so, about kidney failure. I don’t suppose you could share what bloodlines your MT was from? By pm if you prefer.

as far as I’m aware though, most of them do live a fairly long life, 15-17 years seeming quite common
		
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Ill pm it to you


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## oldie48 (4 April 2020)

Stanley is our third BT, our previous two were very healthy and trouble free. I'm hoping Stan will be the same. First one ruptured his cruciate in deep snow but made a good recovery and lived for years after went at 16, second one was pts with a tumour in his nose at 15 but up to that age had been totally well and sound.


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## FinnishLapphund (4 April 2020)

Aru said:



			...
If you had to ask me what I thought was the healthiest breed in the world....

Greyhound most likely

Australian cattle dogs or Kelpies are pretty high on the list but hard work

Finnish lapphund 

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I think Finnish Lapphunds are quite healthy, but not immune to accidents. 
Several years ago Blomma somehow ripped off a claw out in our garden. Not to mention the time when Beata was out of my sight on a walk for max 1 minute. Afterwards we found out that they had a barbeque at the shooting club the day before we walked by it, and we suspect that the pieces of net wrapping for meat, with small metal things attached in some places, which the veterinarian found when they opened Beata's stomach + the intestines in two places, was remnants from that barbeque.  

So, regardless if a breed (or crossbreed) is considered to be healthy, I think owners should be aware that stuff can always happen, when you let dogs be dogs. 

Anyhow, Finnish Lapphunds can carry the gene for a type of cataract, PRCD-PRA, but gene testing for it have been available for over 12 years, and they need to carry two copies of the gene to develop the eye disease, so as long as one, or both, parent is a non carrier, there is no risk for the puppies to one day develop inherited cataract. 

Statistically, the majority of Finnish Lapphunds in Sweden lives to be 12 years old or older.


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## GSD Woman (4 April 2020)

American Bullies, as they're called in the USA, are freaks of nature.  There is no nice way to put it.  I wouldn't touch a Frenchie or English bulldog with a 10 foot barge pole.
Canaan dogs are known to be healthy for the most part.  A friend switched from Dobes to Salukis not realizing how much harder it is to train a Saluki.  Nice woman but sometimes not the brightest.
The 3 GSDs I have now come from long lived lines so I'm hoping for the best. Before them the oldest one lived to be 12 years+ and I put him down because he had arthritis in his stifles and had some skin issues.  He was a lovely dog.
Working hounds seem to be healthy for the most part. If it can't stay healthy or hunt they don't live long.  Harsh but it works.
Malinois used to be healthy but now they're having seizure problems just like Tervs and Groendaals. 
It seems hard to find even a good, healthy, generic mutt now days.  They all seem to be "designer dogs" or lab or pit bull crosses and have those issues.


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## Cinnamontoast (4 April 2020)

ponyparty said:



			I may be biased, but Manchester Terriers have few health issues without the breed. Parents should be test for VWD (Same as dobes) but other than that they’re a pretty hardy lot.
		
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Is that a lot to do with there being so few of them, tho? The co-efficient can’t be very high, despite the small gene pool, because there aren’t many registered annually. My breed has a huge co-efficient, they’re very common.

I love the idea of a a musnterlander, but the only litter I could see when I looked last week, (I am a BAD person) was in Anglesey. I’m also keen on English setters, but the OH wont budge on breed. He told me tonight he wants to choose the puppy that ‘calls to him’ ie the naughty one. He thinks Bear is boring. How very dare he! Bear is an easy, extremely affectionate dog, very trainable, ignores other dogs, which is my ultimate aim. We’re going to end up with another difficult bloody dog, aren’t we? 😳

I could never go for a brachy dog, I want something fit for function that can motorbike round the woods and then snooze on my lap all afternoon.


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## FinnishLapphund (4 April 2020)

scats said:



			Sorry, not read all the replies but I’ve always found a good old mutt tends to last longer, or at least run into less trouble!

We have 3 cross breeds.  Our oldest is an 11 year old Dane x Husky.  She’s slowing down a bit now but we’ve been so lucky with her that she’s had no real issues in her life.

My friend hasn’t had several German Shephards and they’ve had numerous health problems.  The KC registered ones legs went and he struggled in his last few years.  The non-KC registered one was diagnosed with dog lupus and died aged 7.  He had suffered from health issues all his life as a result of the lupus- needed his toe amputated, suffered with ear infections and sores.  He died from an undiagnosed tumour on his spleen that burst one morning.  By the time my friend got him in the car and to the vet, he was dying.  Fortunately they managed to end his suffering, but it was a very traumatic experience for the family.
		
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Different experiences, different views. I've had one crossbreed, which we had to euthanise when she was only around 2 years old due to inherited problems.
That made me decide to stick to purebred dogs, where the breed clubs have guidelines that I can check if the breeder have followed or not.


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## FinnishLapphund (5 April 2020)

Cinnamontoast said:



			...
but the OH wont budge on breed. He told me tonight he wants to choose the puppy that ‘calls to him’ ie the naughty one. He thinks Bear is boring. How very dare he! Bear is an easy, extremely affectionate dog, very trainable, ignores other dogs, which is my ultimate aim. We’re going to end up with another difficult bloody dog, aren’t we? 😳
...
		
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No disrespect intended, I presume that he is otherwise a lovely man, but wanting to choose the puppy that "calls to him = the naughty one", makes me think that you should hit him in the head with a brick.
After all, if he wants to give himself a headache, there is no need for him to spend money on buying a naughty puppy to achieve the headache, when you can fix it for nothing with a brick.

You could also use a saucepan.


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## druid (5 April 2020)

ponyparty said:



			Ah yes the kidney issues thing. That’s a fairly recent discovery if I remember rightly? Seem to recall some drama on the fb group, I left it not long after that so I’m not really in the loop any more.

OMG yours likes mud and water?! 😱 don’t get me wrong, Frank would pursue a ball or quarry through mud/water/fire - but when just walking/sniffing around he always chooses not to get his feet wet and finds a way round 🙂 and good luck getting him to go outside to pee or poop if it’s raining 🤣
		
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I'll PM you about the bloodline. 

Mine may have just become a spaniel, she swims, she revels in mud and she pulls like a husky out doing Canicross n matter what's in front of her. Her last race was Dogs in the Bog 🤣


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## scats (5 April 2020)

FinnishLapphund said:



			Different experiences, different views. I've had one crossbreed, which we had to euthanise when she was only around 2 years old due to inherited problems.
That made me decide to stick to purebred dogs, where the breed clubs have guidelines that I can check if the breeder have followed or not.
		
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Fair enough.  I can only speak from my experiences and those of friends and family.
I love a good mutt though!


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## Cinnamontoast (5 April 2020)

FinnishLapphund said:



			No disrespect intended, I presume that he is otherwise a lovely man, but wanting to choose the puppy that "calls to him = the naughty one", makes me think that you should hit him in the head with a brick.
After all, if he wants to give himself a headache, there is no need for him to spend money on buying a naughty puppy to achieve the headache, when you can fix it for nothing with a brick.

You could also use a saucepan.
		
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He wants a dog with ‘character’, whereas I like well-behaved, easy dogs that do as you ask. Apparently, this is boring. 🤦


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## ponyparty (5 April 2020)

Cinnamontoast said:



			He wants a dog with ‘character’, whereas I like well-behaved, easy dogs that do as you ask. Apparently, this is boring. 🤦
		
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Sounds like you definitely need a MT then  bags of “character” - they have a great sense of humour, mostly at their owners expense, I’ve found! But to balance it out they're also highly trainable, loving, will as you say “zoom round the woods on your walk but then snooze on you all afternoon“. Seems the perfect compromise! 

There you go I’ve found your next dog breed 😜


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## suebou (5 April 2020)

We have a kennel full of very very bright working springers, they are all insane (obviously only my opinion!) Husband tells me they have character and train ability, unlike ‘thick and boring’ labs! They are all healthy though. 
We also have a working clumber who is absolutely the funniest dog that has ever walked this earth! She snores, has itchy skin and is deaf but makes me laugh all the time!


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## Cinnamontoast (5 April 2020)

ponyparty said:



			Sounds like you definitely need a MT then  bags of “character” - they have a great sense of humour, mostly at their owners expense, I’ve found! But to balance it out they're also highly trainable, loving, will as you say “zoom round the woods on your walk but then snooze on you all afternoon“. Seems the perfect compromise!

There you go I’ve found your next dog breed 😜
		
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Sense of humour, stubborn, loving, independent, piss taker, adorable, demanding, far too clever for his own good, hilarious-it’s Zak! 

I know people say springers are crazy, but I don’t find that at all, I’ve had working bred and pet bred, it’s the breed for me! MTs sound fabulous, but I think they’re too little for me, I’d probably fall over one!


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## Cinnamontoast (5 April 2020)

suebou said:



			We have a kennel full of very very bright working springers, they are all insane (obviously only my opinion!) Husband tells me they have character and train ability, unlike ‘thick and boring’ labs! They are all healthy though.
		
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Ooh, blimey, hope you’ve got your tin hat on for when the lab owners see this! 😱 I like a challenge, but I think in 20 years, I’d want a less challenging but not boring dog. I’ve only met a few labs,  one of which was boring. My aunt’s ate a whole tent one time, then my cousin’s veil for her first Communion. Possibly the greediest dog ever.


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## FinnishLapphund (5 April 2020)

Cinnamontoast said:



			He wants a dog with ‘character’, whereas I like well-behaved, easy dogs that do as you ask. Apparently, this is boring. 🤦
		
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Making a rod for one's own back, is highly overrated in my opinion. Well-behaved, easy dogs can also have plenty of character, but in a way that doesn't drain you of your energy. If he thinks an easy dog is boring, why not add difficulty by trying to do more challenging types of training with the dog?


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## Cinnamontoast (5 April 2020)

FinnishLapphund said:



			Making a rod for one's own back, is highly overrated in my opinion. Well-behaved, easy dogs can also have plenty of character, but in a way that doesn't drain you of your energy. If he thinks an easy dog is boring, why not add difficulty by trying to do more challenging types of training with the dog?
		
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Believe me, I think Zak could immediately join Customs and Excise! We do nothing but train when out, he needs occupying. We have the time to train and we spend a lot of time with them. They’re rarely left for more than 4 hours. He’s a very responsive dog.

We have in no way made a rod for our own backs. Zak was chosen on the basis of his intelligence. His only issue is the da. Otherwise, he is highly entertaining. He’s not naughty, just attention seeking.

He loves to play but after an exciting morning-a cat tried to get in the cat flap in the conservatory behind the table leg in the pic and there were 2 dogs bombing round the park-we made a sharp exit and went elsewhere-he is snoozing with his brother.


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## {97702} (5 April 2020)

FinnishLapphund said:



			Making a rod for one's own back, is highly overrated in my opinion. Well-behaved, easy dogs can also have plenty of character, but in a way that doesn't drain you of your energy. If he thinks an easy dog is boring, why not add difficulty by trying to do more challenging types of training with the dog?
		
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This did make me smile - this is me exactly 😊 (not the extra training 😱 but wanting an easy dog not a challenging one....)  

I could never have a springer or a cocker for example, it would drive me absolutely nuts living with a dog that is constantly on the go all the time.... my greyhounds and I suit each other perfectly being lazy sloth-like beings, with short bursts of intense energy and fun 😂 

That’s the joy of dogs though, everyone can find a dog type that suits them 😊😊😊


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## NinjaPony (5 April 2020)

I’m biased but papillons tend to be healthy and long-lived. My dog’s breeder had papillons into their late teens. The known issues are luxating patellas and an eye condition which can be tested for, so relatively easy to avoid if you do your homework. They are still relatively uncommon over here so not so many backyard breeders, though like all these things you have to do your research on the breeder! My dog has had no issues at all except caused by the attack on her; her own health is very good. She comes from show lines but the breed appearance has stayed pretty much the same since they first appeared in the 16th century or so, which has definitely helped with their health.


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## DabDab (5 April 2020)

Levrier said:



			This did make me smile - this is me exactly 😊 (not the extra training 😱 but wanting an easy dog not a challenging one....)

I could never have a springer or a cocker for example, it would drive me absolutely nuts living with a dog that is constantly on the go all the time.... my greyhounds and I suit each other perfectly being lazy sloth-like beings, with short bursts of intense energy and fun 😂

That’s the joy of dogs though, everyone can find a dog type that suits them 😊😊😊
		
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Yes, definitely, and now we've agreed that most breeds are unhealthy (and only some are very very unhealthy) there's still plenty of choice!


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## FinnishLapphund (5 April 2020)

Cinnamontoast said:



			Believe me, I think Zak could immediately join Customs and Excise! We do nothing but train when out, he needs occupying. We have the time to train and we spend a lot of time with them. They’re rarely left for more than 4 hours. He’s a very responsive dog.

We have in no way made a rod for our own backs. Zak was chosen on the basis of his intelligence. His only issue is the da. Otherwise, he is highly entertaining. He’s not naughty, just attention seeking.

He loves to play but after an exciting morning-a cat tried to get in the cat flap in the conservatory behind the table leg in the pic and there were 2 dogs bombing round the park-we made a sharp exit and went elsewhere-he is snoozing with his brother.
View attachment 43567

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Now you've made me confused. I thought we where talking about a potential new puppy, not Zak.

ETA To me, there is a difference between choosing an intelligent puppy, and choosing a naughty puppy.


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## CorvusCorax (5 April 2020)

FinnishLapphund said:



			ETA To me, there is a difference between choosing an intelligent puppy, and choosing a naughty puppy.
		
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8 weeks old: faraway look in his eye, constantly looking off into the middle distance, marches purposefully out of buildings and away from people into the great blue yonder, acts like he owns the place, resource guards, screams when restrained or curtailed in any fashion....

11 weeks old: He's for sale? I'LL TAKE HIM!! 😂😂😂😂


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## {97702} (5 April 2020)

CorvusCorax said:



			8 weeks old: faraway look in his eye, constantly looking off into the middle distance, marches purposefully out of buildings and away from people into the great blue yonder, acts like he owns the place, resource guards, screams when restrained or curtailed in any fashion....

11 weeks old: He's for sale? I'LL TAKE HIM!! 😂😂😂😂
		
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Yeah but we all know you are a little.... ahem.... unusual 😂😂😂


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## Blanche (5 April 2020)

CorvusCorax said:



			And back then all the dogs ran in a pack and had surnames 😂 and lived on brown bread and black tea.

'Rex Wilson, get away back to your own house now!'
		
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We had a Rex when I was growing up and he was black and tan too. He was Border Collie/ GSD, BC mother, GSD father and he had a long coat. I never remember him needing the vets and he died at 15.5yrs old. He nearly died twice but that was not health issues. We had a black mongrel that died prematurely in an accident and a lab that was rehomed when we moved to the continent so can't say how their health would have held up. The lab came from a good kennel( so I've been told, Sandylands)

The most unhealthy dog I have owned myself was a JR. He was always requiring vet treatment, he did live to 19 though. My collies have been put down before 7 due to accidents not health issues, One bearded collie/ border collie cross who dropped dead at ten of a suspected stroke. He was healthy but accident prone and had an allergy to penicillin. My Dalmatians have been healthy but accident prone, living to 14,15.


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## {97702} (5 April 2020)

@Blanche - Sandylands is one of the most famous and prestigious show Labrador prefixes ever, Gwen Broadley is world famous 😊 Most definitely a good Labrador 😊😊😊


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## skinnydipper (5 April 2020)

I had a mutt with numerous health issues including grand mal epilepsy and multiple allergies.  She had other health problems I won't bore you with. She dispelled any myths regarding hybrid vigour.


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## ponyparty (5 April 2020)

Cinnamontoast said:



			Sense of humour, stubborn, loving, independent, piss taker, adorable, demanding, far too clever for his own good, hilarious-it’s Zak!

I know people say springers are crazy, but I don’t find that at all, I’ve had working bred and pet bred, it’s the breed for me! MTs sound fabulous, but I think they’re too little for me, I’d probably fall over one!
		
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Haha, that made me smile.

I actually wanted a Dobe originally; but after a lot of thought and research decided in the end they were too big for my little house and car. The MT was the compromise - and now I’m not sure I’d want a Dobe after all! They are probably the smallest breed I’d go for though - but they’re big dogs in a small dog’s body!

Anyway, we’ve all got our “own” breed that gets us right in the feels 😊 and that’s a good thing!


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## Nettle123 (5 April 2020)

Levrier said:



@Blanche - Sandylands is one of the most famous and prestigious show Labrador prefixes ever, Gwen Broadley is world famous 😊 Most definitely a good Labrador 😊😊😊
		
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 We have a Sandylands lab, 11 years old and never been to the vet apart from jabs.


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## Errin Paddywack (5 April 2020)

planete said:



			Lurchers bred by a fast diminishing population of 'dogmen' who worked them, knew their lines and, either culled substandard ones or removed them from the hunting community.
		
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My friend had a gorgeous brindle whippet lurcher from the Dogs Trust.  She was at a Game Show in Devon where someone came up to admire him and was gutted to find out he was castrated, wanted to use him on his bitch.  She also took on a really stunning tan lurcher and at the same show was told it was a kelpie x by someone who bred them.  Both were very sound healthy dogs who lived to very good ages with no problems, other than bogging off chasing game.  Lovely sane dogs with brilliant temperaments.


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## palo1 (5 April 2020)

Clodagh said:



			Foxhounds, harriers or beagles from a proper hunt. Not that you would want to live with them, but they’d stay sound!
		
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This!!  My retired trailhound, and most of her relatives in the wider seem ridiculously robust and healthy dogs. My old girl, now 13 is still hugely energetic and apart from greying ears and a few old dog warts looks fab.  She did have a mast cell tumour removed at 2 - shortly after I acquired her but that hasn't troubled her since and she hasn't brought any other vet bills at all. She is a lovely dog to live with as long as I remember that she was bred and trained to be a working hound.  She has been a fantastic family dog for us tbh and I would happily have another till I remember the youthful recall issues, the youthful 'wandering' tendency, the ongoing stealing habits and the vagueness of response to 'normal' dog/owner discussions about here, now and 'no'!!  I do love her very dearly and I may take on another like her in good time.  I hope that my Irish terrier is as healthy as he is supposed to be too.  Not much 'wrong' in the breed and testing has helped enormously with more general terrier type problems I think.


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## palo1 (5 April 2020)

windand rain said:



			My friend breeds Cavaliers her seem to live long acive lives often making mid to late teens still fit and healthy mind you they are all health tested, eyes hearts joints etc even have MRI for syrinx problems so I guess her crusade to rid the breed of ts awful reputation will one day be rewarded. I like gundogs and mostly have never had much go wrong upto about 12. The dog with the greatest longevity was my Newfoundland bitch she lived until she was nearly 17 one of the oldest if not the oldest newfie ever She had a lot of puppies always big litters and was never spayed
		
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That is amazing for a Newfoundland windandrain!!  We had them at home when I was young and they were wonderful dogs in lots of ways - ours (Merrybear lines) made about 10 and 12 respectively though which is reasonable I think for such big dogs.


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## Cinnamontoast (5 April 2020)

FinnishLapphund said:



			Now you've made me confused. I thought we where talking about a potential new puppy, not Zak.

ETA To me, there is a difference between choosing an intelligent puppy, and choosing a naughty puppy.
		
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Both. We would want a repeat of Zak, preferably without the werewolf attributes! Intelligence is, I think, often misconstrued as naughtiness by novices. You need to know how to direct/train a clever pup when you can't just run them to exhaustion! We'd get 2, a quiet and a lively one, they balance each other out. 

I might even look at Keeshonds, saw a little beauty the other day down the road.


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## palo1 (5 April 2020)

ponyparty said:



			Sounds like you definitely need a MT then  bags of “character” - they have a great sense of humour, mostly at their owners expense, I’ve found! But to balance it out they're also highly trainable, loving, will as you say “zoom round the woods on your walk but then snooze on you all afternoon“. Seems the perfect compromise!

There you go I’ve found your next dog breed 😜
		
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I think the MT is a fab breed too  Very smart little dogs but not easy to find!


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## {97702} (5 April 2020)

windand rain said:



			My friend breeds Cavaliers her seem to live long acive lives often making mid to late teens still fit and healthy mind you they are all health tested, eyes hearts joints etc even have MRI for syrinx problems so I guess her crusade to rid the breed of ts awful reputation will one day be rewarded
		
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To be fair that’s what every responsible cavalier breeder is doing - and there are a fair few of them around 😊 Those sort of health tests are expected in the breed now


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## Moobli (5 April 2020)

palo1 said:



			This!!  My retired trailhound, and most of her relatives in the wider seem ridiculously robust and healthy dogs. My old girl, now 13 is still hugely energetic and apart from greying ears and a few old dog warts looks fab.  She did have a mast cell tumour removed at 2 - shortly after I acquired her but that hasn't troubled her since and she hasn't brought any other vet bills at all. She is a lovely dog to live with as long as I remember that she was bred and trained to be a working hound.  She has been a fantastic family dog for us tbh and I would happily have another till I remember the youthful recall issues, the youthful 'wandering' tendency, the ongoing stealing habits and the vagueness of response to 'normal' dog/owner discussions about here, now and 'no'!!  I do love her very dearly and I may take on another like her in good time.  I hope that my Irish terrier is as healthy as he is supposed to be too.  Not much 'wrong' in the breed and testing has helped enormously with more general terrier type problems I think.
		
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I am a herding dog type owner through and through (GSDs, collies, kelpies, beardies etc etc) but there is just something about foxhounds and trail hounds that I love.  A couple of times I’ve been sorely tempted to add a rescue hound to my family but have resisted the urge so far.  Yours sounds lovely 😍


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## palo1 (5 April 2020)

Moobli said:



			I am a herding dog type owner through and through (GSDs, collies, kelpies, beardies etc etc) but there is just something about foxhounds and trail hounds that I love.  A couple of times I’ve been sorely tempted to add a rescue hound to my family but have resisted the urge so far.  Yours sounds lovely 😍
		
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Our trailhound is fab  I am sure that if I had worked harder with her, she may have been easier in some ways but I do love her 'houndiness'   My girl is a quite petite fellhound that never really made the grade.  I am not sure how easy I would find a large male, retired foxhound though tbh!!


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## Clodagh (5 April 2020)

palo1 said:



			Our trailhound is fab  I am sure that if I had worked harder with her, she may have been easier in some ways but I do love her 'houndiness'   My girl is a quite petite fellhound that never really made the grade.  I am not sure how easy I would find a large male, retired foxhound though tbh!!
		
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We had one here when he retired, my OH had walked him as a pup and so asked that he came back here when he got old. Sadly he could not cope with life without his pack, our dogs were not enough and he wouldn’t eat and was so miserable. He had to be pts in the end, after much trying.
We had a retired harrier bitch who was amazing, so naughty but a delight to know.


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## lme (5 April 2020)

Salukis (despite what some people consider their many drawbacks) are pretty healthy aren’t they?


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## CorvusCorax (5 April 2020)

Have they even evolved, really?!


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## FinnishLapphund (5 April 2020)

By the way, I remember seeing a Swedish veterinarian program on TV many years ago, were a large-ish, around 1,5 to 2 years old crossbreed dog had severe hip dysplasia. It was so bad, the owners was told that their only options was either hip replacement surgery, or euthanasia. And the owners said something along "But, we bought a crossbreed because we can't afford veterinary bills."

They were sent home with painkillers for the dog, to think through the options. Luckily for the dog, that veterinary clinic had some type of donated fund that could help owners pay for treatment, and they were among the owners who got help that year, so the dog got his hip replacement.


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## FinnishLapphund (5 April 2020)

Cinnamontoast said:



			Both. We would want a repeat of Zak, preferably without the werewolf attributes! Intelligence is, I think, often misconstrued as naughtiness by novices. You need to know how to direct/train a clever pup when you can't just run them to exhaustion! We'd get 2, a quiet and a lively one, they balance each other out.

I might even look at Keeshonds, saw a little beauty the other day down the road.
		
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To me, a naughty puppy is for example not that interested in humans, and about as difficult as a shy puppy. Fortunately for those puppies, there is people who falls for those types of puppies, and please note that such puppies might be lovely personalities, but for me, they're just too much work. 

Wanting an intelligent puppy, because you enjoy working with your dog, is another matter. 

Personally, I think I'm like Levrier, I enjoy an easy dog owning life, where I don't need to do more work with them than necessary.


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## CorvusCorax (5 April 2020)

There's actually no training you can do with a truly intelligent dog. Trust me. They know it's all bullshit. Give me a bit of stupid all day 😂😂😂


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## {97702} (5 April 2020)

lme said:



			Salukis (despite what some people consider their many drawbacks) are pretty healthy aren’t they?
		
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NCL, DCM and cancer apparently.... and the fact they are a little bit batty? 😄 But amazingly beautiful ❤️


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## Clodagh (5 April 2020)

CorvusCorax said:



			There's actually no training you can do with a truly intelligent dog. Trust me. They know it's all bullshit. Give me a bit of stupid all day 😂😂😂
		
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I know that as a Labrador owner I am despised in dog training circles as an idiot, but I have to agree! Tawny is a clever dog and so much harder then Tim Tim nice but dim Ffee!


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## blackcob (5 April 2020)

I am thinking what a nice experience it must be to be able to select a puppy from a litter on temperament, my last puppy buying experience in a numerically small breed with tiny litters was bizarre by comparison. I did eventually get a choice of just two! Adult rescue again next time, far less stressful. 

The spaniels will do anything you ask of them just because they love you, which is gratifying but dare I say it a little bit boring (sorry boys!) - I do prefer spitzy/nordic type thing negotiation tactics.


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## Moobli (5 April 2020)

Clodagh said:



			We had one here when he retired, my OH had walked him as a pup and so asked that he came back here when he got old. Sadly he could not cope with life without his pack, our dogs were not enough and he wouldn’t eat and was so miserable. He had to be pts in the end, after much trying.
We had a retired harrier bitch who was amazing, so naughty but a delight to know.
		
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Oh that’s sad, but understandable about the hunt hound.


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## planete (5 April 2020)

I have grown to love my various lurchers' different types of intelligence.  Dylan could go all day but will keep begging you for brain games and laps up any training (he is exhausting!).  Sophie is far too clever for me, I have never done any formal training with her, she has learnt most things from watching me or Dylan, will do anything you ask exceedingly well if she fancies doing it but will ignore you whenever it suits her. Rosie is dying to please but has a hard time overcoming the intense concentration  she brings to bear on anything her feral dog brain thinks may be a threat (a smell, a noise, a speck on the horizon).  It served her well when she lived on her wits but is a real drawback for domesticated life.  She is mostly saluki, definitely very clever and has done well with behaviour shaping when being clicker trained. The cleverest one:  definitely Ollie terrier who loves learning new things and who has also trained us remarkably well while keeping the lurchers under his paw.


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## Cinnamontoast (5 April 2020)

FinnishLapphund said:



			To me, a naughty puppy is for example not that interested in humans, and about as difficult as a shy puppy. Fortunately for those puppies, there is people who falls for those types of puppies, and please note that such puppies might be lovely personalities, but for me, they're just too much work.

Wanting an intelligent puppy, because you enjoy working with your dog, is another matter.

Personally, I think I'm like Levrier, I enjoy an easy dog owning life, where I don't need to do more work with them than necessary.
		
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Zak is not interested in humans unless he knows them, then he’s bonkers affectionate. I love working with Zak, he learns very quickly. I like the easy dogs too, Bear is one, easily pleased, does as asked, rarely pushes boundaries. Both of the workers were easy, trained very easily, never took the piss. 

I dunno, maybe as I get older, I’ll want an easy dog only but then where’s the fun?!


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## windand rain (5 April 2020)

Funny I have always had a quirky view of dog intelligence surely the stupidest dogs are the ones that do everything they are told the most intelligent being those that say on your bike I aint doing that. I keep being told that collies are the top of the intelligence scale but it is pretty dumb to follow every instruction given even to the point of lack of self preservation. Collies going over cliffs to get sheep being a classic example


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## CorvusCorax (5 April 2020)

That's not intelligence though, it's genetics.


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## GSD Woman (5 April 2020)

My male GSD is the smartest dog I've ever owned.  He is also very biddable. COVID 19 has really thrown a wrench in our competition plans. I'm guessing it will be a year before dog competitions return here in the States.


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## Moobli (6 April 2020)

windand rain said:



			Funny I have always had a quirky view of dog intelligence surely the stupidest dogs are the ones that do everything they are told the most intelligent being those that say on your bike I aint doing that. I keep being told that collies are the top of the intelligence scale but it is pretty dumb to follow every instruction given even to the point of lack of self preservation. Collies going over cliffs to get sheep being a classic example
		
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We have some slower to learn sheepdogs who take an age to learn their commands and never seem to entirely grasp their left/right and others who learn very quickly and are a breeze to train.  The exceptional ones (and I think where intelligence really comes into it) are the ones who can work out of sight, independently , without command and still know what’s required of them.


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## Moobli (6 April 2020)

My “best” dog to date (meaning the one who ticked all my boxes in terms of personality, drive etc) was from health tested, very long lived lines, which gave me a false sense of security in terms of how long I’d have him.  He died last summer of lymphoma at just 8 years 🙁. Nature sometimes throws curve balls.


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## Clodagh (6 April 2020)

Moobli said:



			We have some slower to learn sheepdogs who take an age to learn their commands and never seem to entirely grasp their left/right and others who learn very quickly and are a breeze to train.  The exceptional ones (and I think where intelligence really comes into it) are the ones who can work out of sight, independently , without command and still know what’s required of them.
		
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My mother used to live in Durham and the collies were amazing. You'd see a man turn to his dog and mutter about three words and maybe swing his arm up and three dogs would vanish and come back with the sheep from another fell. Amazing. He obviously hadn't said enough, even in high speed Geordie, to have explained every step. I love collies and if I did more dogging in/beating rather than picking up I would get a short haired border or a kelpie. I couldn't have one as a pet though, reading about the problems people have with them on here make me feel tired!


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## Clodagh (6 April 2020)

Moobli said:



			My “best” dog to date (meaning the one who ticked all my boxes in terms of personality, drive etc) was from health tested, very long lived lines, which gave me a false sense of security in terms of how long I’d have him.  He died last summer of lymphoma at just 8 years 🙁. Nature sometimes throws curve balls.
		
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I've liked that, although it seems inappropriate. I hope his son is filling the gap left behind.


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## Moobli (6 April 2020)

Clodagh said:



			I've liked that, although it seems inappropriate. I hope his son is filling the gap left behind.
		
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Thanks, he is and the little bitch (also from long lived ancestors so fingers crossed) is an absolute delight.  They make me laugh daily 🙂


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## Clodagh (6 April 2020)

And another thing, sorry I'm off work today and don't feel well enough to do anything constructive!
I know people diss labs but I would so much rather have a dog I can take anywhere and do anything with than a more exciting dog that I couldn't. I like FL's post about just doing more with training so you aren't bored! I love having a dog that actively strives to understand what I am teaching them, and one that I know if they don't get it it is entirely my fault.


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## Moobli (6 April 2020)

Clodagh said:



			My mother used to live in Durham and the collies were amazing. You'd see a man turn to his dog and mutter about three words and maybe swing his arm up and three dogs would vanish and come back with the sheep from another fell. Amazing. He obviously hadn't said enough, even in high speed Geordie, to have explained every step. I love collies and if I did more dogging in/beating rather than picking up I would get a short haired border or a kelpie. I couldn't have one as a pet though, reading about the problems people have with them on here make me feel tired!
		
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It’s poetry in motion to watch a good shepherd and his dogs working as a team.  I never tire of it.  I can’t abide watching most trials though as the poor dogs are commanded all the way down the field and never given a chance for independent thought.  Many of the old school of shepherding believe it’s not helping the breed.


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## Clodagh (6 April 2020)

Moobli said:



			It’s poetry in motion to watch a good shepherd and his dogs working as a team.  I never tire of it.  I can’t abide watching most trials though as the poor dogs are commanded all the way down the field and never given a chance for independent thought.  Many of the old school of shepherding believe it’s not helping the breed.
		
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You see it with trialling trained labs. I go to a training group occasionally and hate watching the over trained dog sent out to do something whos legs are all stiff as he is waiting to be stopped/redirected, rather than going with joy and enthusiasm. I'm not capable of sharing the video I put on FB the other day on here but it was my youngest just running out to do her thing with 100% verve and confidence. You do wonder if you will end up breeding sticky dogs who can't think and you can't always be there with them to say what to do next.


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## Moobli (6 April 2020)

Clodagh said:



			And another thing, sorry I'm off work today and don't feel well enough to do anything constructive!
I know people diss labs but I would so much rather have a dog I can take anywhere and do anything with than a more exciting dog that I couldn't. I like FL's post about just doing more with training so you aren't bored! I love having a dog that actively strives to understand what I am teaching them, and one that I know if they don't get it it is entirely my fault.
		
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I totally get that.  My little collie, named Rip, was the easiest, most biddable dog I’ve ever known.  He never put a paw wrong and always tried to do the right thing (but not in an annoying, constantly appeasing sort of way).  I could take him anywhere, and did, and he never let me down.  He was a breeze.
A few of my friends own GSDs and we are often moaning and laughing in equal measure about why we make our lives difficult by owning the breed, who can be quick to react to things other dogs would ignore (usually other dogs!)  and who require very careful socialisation if they are to be the “take anywhere” dog.  Genetics play a big role in that too, but you never really know what you’re getting until they are 2 years or more. 
I sometimes think an easygoing Lab would be a lovely contrast.


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## Moobli (6 April 2020)

Clodagh said:



			You see it with trialling trained labs. I go to a training group occasionally and hate watching the over trained dog sent out to do something whos legs are all stiff as he is waiting to be stopped/redirected, rather than going with joy and enthusiasm. I'm not capable of sharing the video I put on FB the other day on here but it was my youngest just running out to do her thing with 100% verve and confidence. You do wonder if you will end up breeding sticky dogs who can't think and you can't always be there with them to say what to do next.
		
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i missed that, so just went for a look. I just love her happy enthusiasm.  Great to watch.


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## CorvusCorax (6 April 2020)

Moobli said:



			.  The exceptional ones (and I think where intelligence really comes into it) are the ones who can work out of sight, independently , without command and still know what’s required of them.
		
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If they 'know', I'd still call that genetics, personally. 

I didn't teach my own dogs things like their grips, tracking behaviour, jumping style/aerodynamics , the way they bark, nature gave them that and I can look back and see where it came from. I just adapted what they came out of the womb 'knowing' what to do.


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## Clodagh (6 April 2020)

CorvusCorax said:



			If they 'know', I'd still call that genetics, personally.

I didn't teach my own dogs things like their grips, tracking behaviour, jumping style/aerodynamics , the way they bark, nature gave them that and I can look back and see where it came from. I just adapted what they came out of the womb 'knowing' what to do.
		
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I suppose thats true enough with all breeds then, labs want to carry things and bring them to you, collies want to round things up, terriers...now terriers want to dig holes and kill things!
Which brings me to another thought - why do retireving breeds want to bring you 'food'? I understand the collie rounding things up as a dog and duck man explained it once but I don't understand a dog finding a dead rabbit and thinking - 'I'll take that to my human'?


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## P3LH (6 April 2020)

CorvusCorax said:



			There's actually no training you can do with a truly intelligent dog. Trust me. They know it's all bullshit. Give me a bit of stupid all day 😂😂😂
		
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 That is life with a Pembroke corgi any day. I compare her to my two rough collies who seem to always be waiting to do exactly what you want of them, and it’s not like having two different breeds.....but two different species 😂 one biddable and eager to please, one sceptical and disinterested of everything you tell them.

Interestingly of the two rough collies, one is a rough collie and one is a rough collie by virtue—he is a rough that cropped up in a litter of smooth collies (he looks like they did in the sixties, tall, long nose, slight, feathery but not profuse coat, moves like a race horse) and there is a marked difference between the two in their outlook.

 The smooth bred boy is more sensitive but takes as much or as little life as you throw at him, the rough boy is more stubborn and ‘let me consider it’ (nowhere near as much as the corgi though!)

I can’t understand why smooth collies (albeit my boy is one in a pair of furry pyjamas) aren’t more popular on that premise. Calm, biddable, and take it all in their stride. VERY different in temperament and personality to their modern rough cousins (IMO)


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## P3LH (6 April 2020)

In terms of generally healthy breeds though...sporting terriers and lurcher generally are as a rule. Although it’s not uncommon for some of these dogs to be extremely inbred/bred very closely, including half siblings etc.

Most I have known have made healthy old bones.
Toy/mini poodles and Yorkies used to seem to go on forever once upon a time, and stay quite robust. We lost a Yorkie last year at only four to neurological issues (he ended up paralysed) so maybe that’s not the case anymore.


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## CorvusCorax (6 April 2020)

Clodagh said:



			Which brings me to another thought - why do retireving breeds want to bring you 'food'? I understand the collie rounding things up as a dog and duck man explained it once but I don't understand a dog finding a dead rabbit and thinking - 'I'll take that to my human'?
		
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They don't, their prey drive has been adapted through generations.

For instance, my dog instinctively knew to chase/identify, aquire and posses an object with a firm, crushing bite from no age. Where I kick in is teaching him to either let it go cleanly, either at a distance and guard it until I get there/when I'm beside him, or in the case of dumbbell, bring it back, sit in front, let it go. Those bits require either bribery or compulsion lol.
The bark in the guarding (his frame of mind), the speed at which he travels to the prey item, how he picks it up or the grip, the direction he turns when he brings it back etc, are all natural. I can influence certain things and try for faster/better/more control etc, but I can't put in what's not there.
But it's all pretty much prey drive, with a bit of defence/self-preservation in the guarding.
Tracking and obedience are all trained through hunt/prey/food as well.

In other breeds, it's adapted to rounding things up, bringing things back with a soft mouth, etc etc.


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## Clodagh (6 April 2020)

Makes perfect sense.  ty


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## CorvusCorax (6 April 2020)

I thought about this a lot as a kid lol. My childhood dog killed three of my pet rabbits over two incidents of shoddy management where a door wasn't closed properly, not her fault. The rabbits were untouched, she never attempted to eat them or maul them.
She was delighted with herself and she kept coming over to my mother and 'showing us what she had done'.

She had enough 'in' her that she wanted to chase them and stop them from moving about. The only way she could do that was with her mouth, obviously shock and crush injuries killed them. But once they were no longer moving, they were not interesting then.
But adaptation/domestication meant that she didn't need or want to eat them, that had been bred out of her, but she wanted us to see it, she thought she might get something out of it from us.
She came from showing/herding stock but was never trained to do anything apart from basic pet obedience.
Interestingly the was the only dog we ever had that buried toys/bones.


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## planete (6 April 2020)

At just over a year old, Dylan demonstrated to me what instinct can do but it still left me slightly baffled.  He was off lead close to me and put up a roe doe who had been hiding in the bracken near by. He was on it very quickly, briefly grabbed a hind leg, let go, ran alongside and brought it down with a neck hold. I was running as well by then and when I reached him he immediately let go and took a couple of steps back while looking at me. The doe ran off with only a slight limp and I never walked him on the forest loose again.  All very normal for a lurcher but why did he literally offer me his prize with no training to do so whatsoever?  

Edit:  just read CC's post which has probably answered my question!


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## Errin Paddywack (6 April 2020)

CorvusCorax said:



			There's actually no training you can do with a truly intelligent dog.
		
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My friend would agree with you.  She has two Tibetan Mastiffs.  They have learnt basics but you cannot train them as such, they don't see the point, just look at you with 'why'?  The older one particularly is very intelligent, she has those deep soulful eyes that you see on gorillas.  A lot going on inside.  Cooperation is the best you can hope for.


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## Errin Paddywack (6 April 2020)

I have now had five collies from pups over the last 22 yrs, to help me with my sheep. I have done no formal sheep training with them and it has been fascinating seeing the different ways instinct manifests itself.  They have all had different ways of handling sheep, all pretty effective and we may not work like trials people and their dogs but we get the job done.  My youngest who is bred from good sheepdog lines has an excellent brain and you can see her working things out and adapting her behaviour.  I find this a lot more fun than having 'properly' trained dogs though no doubt many shepherds would be horrified by us.


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## CorvusCorax (6 April 2020)

planete said:



			At just over a year old, Dylan demonstrated to me what instinct can do but it still left me slightly baffled.  He was off lead close to me and put up a roe doe who had been hiding in the bracken near by. He was on it very quickly, briefly grabbed a hind leg, let go, ran alongside and brought it down with a neck hold. I was running as well by then and when I reached him he immediately let go and took a couple of steps back while looking at me. The doe ran off with only a slight limp and I never walked him on the forest loose again.  All very normal for a lurcher but why did he literally offer me his prize with no training to do so whatsoever?

Edit:  just read CC's post which has probably answered my question!
		
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Pretty much the same scenario! I did this thing using my (adapted) instincts = I get reward/validation from my boss or it satisfies my deep primal need to do this thing.

So using selective breeding, in a lurcher you create an effective collection/dispatch and delivery service and in a sport or service dog, a dog that *will not let go* of something very noisy, non compliant, threatening to hurt it, until boss comes along and tells you to and tells you what a good boy you are


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## Aru (6 April 2020)

Breed very much matters. You cannot eliminate generations of selective breeding by rearing a puppy as a pet instead of a worker.
Its quite sad when you see how many people are clueless to the drives their dogs have because of breed traits.
The breed matters as it often drives to how the dog thinks.

Tap and understand breed traits and a lot of dogs are much easier to understand and manage.

Sadly a large amount of people have a godawful habit of buying dogs based on looks not suitability for lifestyle and research is the exception rather then the rule in many dog owners. Makes for some very interesting first puppy consults..... not everyone likes being told the breed traits to expect and advise on socialisation etc based on breed.


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## blackcob (6 April 2020)

I have taken great pride in teaching a dog to do something other people thought they could not do, and to a decent level (she remains the only dog of her breed in the UK to have reached grade 6 in agility) but it absolutely did not change the dog underneath. Away from the agility field, all bets are off and even aged 10 I can not and will not have her off the lead anywhere else. Thankfully you don't tend to get many cats and bunnies hanging around when the lycra-clad hordes have descended for an agility show.


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## splashgirl45 (6 April 2020)

i have had many lurchers over the years and all have a certain amount of prey drive, on reflection all but one came from pet whippets or greyhounds and border collies,  all of the pet bred ones were very biddable and had good recall, however my last one was VERY prey driven and once on the hunt would be completely oblivious to any commands, she got a strange look in her eyes and i dont think she even saw me let alone listen to me.  her breeding was different her dad was a coursing whippet and mum was a mixture of  coursing whippet/bearded collie ...i made a big mistake  by not taking any notice of the breeding but she was a character and i miss her every day,


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## satinbaze (6 April 2020)

CorvusCorax said:



			There's actually no training you can do with a truly intelligent dog. Trust me. They know it's all bullshit. Give me a bit of stupid all day 😂😂😂
		
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Give me a thick dog any day of the week. My best trained dog was rather dim, but absolutely a delight to train. She competed successfully in 4 disciplines: breed showing, gained her KC stud book number, Agility, won out of grade 1 and was very consistent clear rounds but her handler (me) not fast enough for us to beat the collies, Working Trials CDex and UD open, obedience: consistently in the rosettes. 
My most intelligent dog was a CKCS who didn't see the point of training and would do things if she wanted to. I travelled once all the way to Scarborough Working Trial for her to go into the search square and sit staring at me for 3 minutes, nothing would possess her to search that day. She did eventually get her CDex then she retired disgracefully. However she was a lovely little dog.


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## DressageCob (6 April 2020)

I chose my previous dog based on the breed having very few known issues. He was a lakeland terrier and lived to be 15. we had him put down because he was senile and getting distressed, but otherwise he was healthy. 

My new dog is from a breed with surprisingly few known issues, despite being a basset. The GBGV aren't as overbred as basset hounds, and have kept the sportier traits over the generations. They also don't have the eye problems of the petits. I would describe them as a healthy breed in general. 
This puppy is incredibly intelligent. I thought my previous dog was bright, but this chap is something else. You have to be on your guard because things can very quickly become learnt behaviours. He will also do just about anything for food, which helps with the training, unless there's a better smell around to investigate. I'm not into robot dogs. I prefer a little quirk, a bit of character and personality.


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## palo1 (6 April 2020)

DressageCob said:



			I chose my previous dog based on the breed having very few known issues. He was a lakeland terrier and lived to be 15. we had him put down because he was senile and getting distressed, but otherwise he was healthy.

My new dog is from a breed with surprisingly few known issues, despite being a basset. The GBGV aren't as overbred as basset hounds, and have kept the sportier traits over the generations. They also don't have the eye problems of the petits. I would describe them as a healthy breed in general.
This puppy is incredibly intelligent. I thought my previous dog was bright, but this chap is something else. You have to be on your guard because things can very quickly become learnt behaviours. He will also do just about anything for food, which helps with the training, unless there's a better smell around to investigate. I'm not into robot dogs. I prefer a little quirk, a bit of character and personality.
		
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Hounds are just wonderful!  I have never quite worked out though how clever or how thick they are....they always seem to get what they want but play dim about other things.  Like house rules and recall....!!


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## GSD Woman (6 April 2020)

Aru said:



			Breed very much matters. You cannot eliminate generations of selective breeding by rearing a puppy as a pet instead of a worker.
Its quite sad when you see how many people are clueless to the drives their dogs have because of breed traits.
The breed matters as it often drives to how the dog thinks.
		
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Amen!  It isn't all in "how you raise them." I wish the idiots with Pit Bull types would get that message.  If a breed is selected for certain traits for upteen generations those traits may very well pop up, especially at maturity.


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## {97702} (6 April 2020)

satinbaze said:



			Give me a thick dog any day of the week. My best trained dog was rather dim, but absolutely a delight to train. She competed successfully in 4 disciplines: breed showing, gained her KC stud book number, Agility, won out of grade 1 and was very consistent clear rounds but her handler (me) not fast enough for us to beat the collies, Working Trials CDex and UD open, obedience: consistently in the rosettes. 
My most intelligent dog was a CKCS who didn't see the point of training and would do things if she wanted to. I travelled once all the way to Scarborough Working Trial for her to go into the search square and sit staring at me for 3 minutes, nothing would possess her to search that day. She did eventually get her CDex then she retired disgracefully. However she was a lovely little dog.
		
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I have this absolute mental image of a little CKCS sitting there.... adorable ❤️❤️❤️


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## {97702} (6 April 2020)

GSD Woman said:



			Amen!  It isn't all in "how you raise them." I wish the idiots with Pit Bull types would get that message.  If a breed is selected for certain traits for upteen generations those traits may very well pop up, especially at maturity.
		
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Absolutely! It drives me insane at the number of people who are horrified/terrified/some other emotion when their rescue  greyhound chases something small and fluffy 😳

It is what your dog has been bred to do for generations? It is your job as an owner to ensure the dog is never given the opportunity to do that in an inappropriate way again? What is so difficult to understand about that? 😞


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## hobo (6 April 2020)

Lab/collie 17 years two tummy upsets and one cut leg in those 17 years and final visit from vet.

Fox hound / flat coat 14 years one stomach opp because he ate haylage and final home visit.


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## Cinnamontoast (6 April 2020)

Don’t think we ever took Brig to the vets bar for stitching up (except when the dementia kicked in at the end 😢): the vet told me 3/4 of injuries he saw were springers. He was a bit quick to go through, rather than round things.


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## DabDab (6 April 2020)

Levrier said:



			Absolutely! It drives me insane at the number of people who are horrified/terrified/some other emotion when their rescue  greyhound chases something small and fluffy 😳

It is what your dog has been bred to do for generations? It is your job as an owner to ensure the dog is never given the opportunity to do that in an inappropriate way again? What is so difficult to understand about that? 😞
		
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I think my poor mother is still traumatised by witnessing little Dee unceremoniously dispatching 7 rats in one sitting and dumping them in a pile by where she was stood (there was a hell of a rat problem here when we arrived). 

I've always found it curious that the westie never kills anything. She hunts things down and digs things out, but never tries to kill them. Often she chases them to Dee to kill.


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## TheOldTrout (7 April 2020)

Jack Russells - ours lived until their late teens and were pretty healthy.


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## DiNozzo (7 April 2020)

luke_H said:



			In terms of generally healthy breeds though...sporting terriers and lurcher generally are as a rule. Although it’s not uncommon for some of these dogs to be extremely inbred/bred very closely, including half siblings etc.

Most I have known have made healthy old bones.
Toy/mini poodles and Yorkies used to seem to go on forever once upon a time, and stay quite robust. We lost a Yorkie last year at only four to neurological issues (he ended up paralysed) so maybe that’s not the case anymore.
		
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My mother has had a string of Yorkies, proper ones, not toys. Never died before the age of 17. One when I was young  had a massive stroke in the living room and then sat up, and calculated how to get to her food bowl leaning on furniture etc. Vet had never seen the like when she went in. 

Other dogs have all been very healthy but prone to cataracts. The one they've got now isn't observant enough to know he's gone more or less blind and genuinely doesn't seem to have noticed. He also should be crippled with arthritis (very loose hock joint in one leg and is a very active dog), but isn't.

Had a yorkieXscottie rescue that had awful kidney issues, but that could be the breeding or his early life conditions.


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## blackcob (7 April 2020)

Musing (I've got time on my hands... ) - where do we draw the line between accepting breed traits and dogs being allowed to get away with dickish behaviour because "that's just what they do"?


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## CorvusCorax (7 April 2020)

What, you mean like, er, trying to noisily have a fight with an innocent, inanimate piece of training equipment?? 

Like yours  there is lots of trouble that my dog could get himself into **if he was allowed**. Until such time as I can afford a secure compound where I can chuck him an antelope and he can run wild and be the feral creature that he's always dreamed of being, he can stay on a 10m flexi and suck his dummy tit. But I see your point, people get these cool and trendy breeds and make no attempt to either channel their drives or tell them to knock it off, it's just 'dogs being dogs'. I do see a spangle owner, daily, allowing his dog to bother/chase wading birds along the riverbank, which I think is extremely dickish, when I keep one of mine on a line in his own garden, which was handy, as there was a cat on the fence this morning.

My other one LOVES people and other dogs and is insanely social, but he is also a massive, clumsy oaf so I don't *let* him clamber all over strangers and splat very tiny dogs. However he is insanely territorial, as he should be typically, if the door knocks or the gate squeaks, he's all barking and hackles, therefore, I don't *let* him be anywhere near those areas of the house in the daytime. He does not need to defend me from the postman.


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## DabDab (7 April 2020)

blackcob said:



			Musing (I've got time on my hands... ) - where do we draw the line between accepting breed traits and dogs being allowed to get away with dickish behaviour because "that's just what they do"?
		
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The line is at the point where the behaviour becomes dickish . 
Is it reasonable of me that I let my terrier kill rats but let her know that she's not allowed to so much as look sideways at a chicken? I don't know, but she seems to accept and follow those rules....maybe she thinks I'm dickish 🤷‍♀️


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## Clodagh (7 April 2020)

DabDab said:



			The line is at the point where the behaviour becomes dickish .
Is it reasonable of me that I let my terrier kill rats but let her know that she's not allowed to so much as look sideways at a chicken? I don't know, but she seems to accept and follow those rules....maybe she thinks I'm dickish 🤷‍♀️
		
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She just thinks you have some funny, old fashioned ideas but is prepared to humour you.


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## DabDab (7 April 2020)

Clodagh said:



			She just thinks you have some funny, old fashioned ideas but is prepared to humour you.
		
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'Prepared to humour me' is the relationship I strive for with all my animals.


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## Tiddlypom (7 April 2020)

DabDab, I extend an invitation to you (after all the lockdown stuff is over) to come and let our JRT know that she’s not allowed to so much as look sideways at a chicken. Oh, and if you could tell her the same about guinea pigs, that would be grand . Not that I currently have any piggies, but it would be nice to have to option to, in the future.

I have taught her to ignore cattle and sheep, but small feathereds and furries are proving to be much more of a challenge .


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## Clodagh (7 April 2020)

DabDab said:



			'Prepared to humour me' is the relationship I strive for with all my animals.
		
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Now get a Labrador as they’ve think you are amazing! Except my Tawny who knows I am inept and only suffers my company as she can’t read the shoot card and doesn’t know in which order we are doing the drives.


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## CorvusCorax (7 April 2020)

"Ah, here comes the irritating food dispenser"


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## DabDab (7 April 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			DabDab, I extend an invitation to you (after all the lockdown stuff is over) to come and let our JRT know that she’s not allowed to so much as look sideways at a chicken. Oh, and if you could tell her the same about guinea pigs, that would be grand . Not that I currently have any piggies, but it would be nice to have to option to, in the future.

I have taught her to ignore cattle and sheep, but small feathereds and furries are proving to be much more of a challenge .
		
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Haha, I think I would be hopeless with other people's dogs sadly. All I have at my disposal is a good angry voice, which only works with her because she a bit overly attached to me and doesn't want me to be cross, bless her.Theory never tested with Guinea pigs, but both terriers did once live with a house rabbit - he used to chase and bite them 😂


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## windand rain (7 April 2020)

comatosed working bred for 8 generations labrador. When she does get off the sofa for about 5 minutes at a time to go for a wee she will find tennis balls in the field but 95% of her time she is asleep and has been the same since a pup


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## Tiddlypom (7 April 2020)

DabDab has trained an attack rabbit too? Respect indeed!


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## blackcob (7 April 2020)

I guess an example of what I was thinking is when folk go on the husky pages with something like "my new husky pulls really hard on the lead, what can I do to help?" and gets piled on by 100 disgustingly smug posters all going 'bUt ThAt's WhAt tHeY wErE bReD tO Do!!!!!"

Which, ok, yeah. But if you're in the UK, even if you do harness sports with it (and you should) your Siberian husky is still a pet dog. You probably don't have access to one of CC's magical dream compounds. At some point in its life you are going to want to walk it along a footpath, around a park or at the very least in and out of the vet's waiting room. Why make life harder for yourself by not training it, just because it's somehow more speshul than a gundog or a terrier?!

I mean, they are of course very speshul, but they can bloody well walk on a lead and collar like anything else.  I've never met one that wasn't at least moderately smart, most are towards the scarily intelligent end of the scale, they can and do understand the difference between working and walking.


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## Clodagh (7 April 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			DabDab has trained an attack rabbit too? Respect indeed!
		
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She did film work for Monty Python, did you not know?


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## blackcob (7 April 2020)

Aaaaaand another thing - schipperkes have a propensity to bark. Historical watch dog, barking is what they do, that's fine. 

However, to my mind that means two or three barks when someone crunches on the gravel drive or knocks the door, then shutting up once I've acknowledged the threat. 

To everyone else, it seems to mean that it's expected they will throw themselves about in a frenzy of INSANE frantic yapping for whole minutes just because a sparrow farted 5km away, and that it's acceptable for them to continue doing this while benched at a show.


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## {97702} (7 April 2020)

blackcob said:



			Musing (I've got time on my hands... ) - where do we draw the line between accepting breed traits and dogs being allowed to get away with dickish behaviour because "that's just what they do"?
		
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No dickish behaviour allowed in my house 😊 But as I always say, it’s up to me to remove the potential as far as possible to allow them to do very bad things.... (murder cats/wildlife etc)

I appreciate it is natural behaviour, and I wouldn’t PTS/send back a dog for doing something like that - it’s my fault for letting it happen!

Because all my hounds are lean, mean speed machines....🙄


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## DabDab (7 April 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			DabDab has trained an attack rabbit too? Respect indeed!
		
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Doesn't every self respecting person have one?


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## {97702} (7 April 2020)

DabDab please can I send you 2 rather dim greyhounds, a very hunting-orientated lurcher and a terrier I don’t even dare ask about so you can get them used to Guinea pigs? I’ve always wanted a GP or two again.... I’d never dare 🙄


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## DabDab (7 April 2020)

Why does everyone want Guinea pigs?? Is this Esters fault?


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## {97702} (7 April 2020)

DabDab said:



			Why does everyone want Guinea pigs?? Is this Esters fault?
		
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Noooo - I had LOTS of guinea pigs when I was a kid (as a result of not being able to tell the males from females 🙄) and I’ve always adored them 😊

Sadly since I’ve had sighthounds (so for the past 33 years....) so have my dogs 😂😂😂


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## Tiddlypom (7 April 2020)

DabDab said:



			Why does everyone want Guinea pigs?? Is this Esters fault?
		
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Yes.


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## Cinnamontoast (7 April 2020)

Can’t lie, there were 2 in PAH yesterday and I clocked a big hutch/run and thought about it for ooh, about 5 seconds before I remembered that I have 2 very prey oriented dogs.

Talking of being bred for it and doing their job due to genetics, where does chasing muntjac come into it with springers? Bye, Bear!


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## GSD Woman (7 April 2020)

You all are too funny.  My wire fox terrier used to sit next to the piggy crate and Harvey, his name, would groom her through the wires. She was murder on wild things and outdoor cats but respected my cat.  They worked as a team to knock over the garbage can in the kitchen.  Caught them in the act one morning, dog rooting around in the can and cat sitting contentedly on the turned over surface.


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## ester (7 April 2020)

We did used to have 'fort guinea' when they were on the yard and we had 1 JRT, 1 yorkie and 1 mini dasch with liveries.
The second fence was added when the JRT (resident) pup thought she might be able to chew her way in (it's a very heavy run made of pallets). The top section (which doesn't show too well) was added when said JRT worked out she could clear the fence and have a go at the run from on top. Squeakers never really cared and I did threaten and entertainment fee.


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## lme (9 April 2020)

Levrier said:



			NCL, DCM and cancer apparently.... and the fact they are a little bit batty? 😄 But amazingly beautiful ❤️
		
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I can vouch for batty - I am on Salukis number 4 and 5. All mine have had zero recall and a tendency to chase anything that moves and all have been quirky. My current Salukis (nicknamed play-pest and ASBO) are beautiful but nothing like normal dogs. It often feels more as if they are large cats.


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## {97702} (9 April 2020)

lme said:



			I can vouch for batty - I am on Salukis number 4 and 5. All mine have had zero recall and a tendency to chase anything that moves and all have been quirky. My current Salukis (nicknamed play-pest and ASBO) are beautiful but nothing like normal dogs. It often feels more as if they are large cats.
		
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I’m sort of envious but not? 😄 They are so gorgeous, I’d love to have the strength of character to have one.... but over the years I’ve even avoided lurchers with saluki in them just in case 🙄😂😂

any chance we could have pictures? 😊😊


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## Cortez (9 April 2020)

I adore salukis, but when I asked a breeder friend what they were like off-lead she said she didn't know as she'd never let one off (outside the fenced paddock). She may have prefaced that with "are you insane?".....


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## CorvusCorax (9 April 2020)

Like I said...they haven't evolved. They're still, mentally, out in the desert with the Bedouin hunting deer


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## {97702} (9 April 2020)

CorvusCorax said:



			Like I said...they haven't evolved. They're still, mentally, out in the desert with the Bedouin hunting deer 

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so is Millie lurcher..... hmmm actually that does makes me wonder...... 😱


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## Cinnamontoast (9 April 2020)

Cortez said:



			I adore salukis, but when I asked a breeder friend what they were like off-lead she said she didn't know as she'd never let one off (outside the fenced paddock). She may have prefaced that with "are you insane?".....
		
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There’s a breeder on here, I swear her last set of Black and Tan pups were the best looking dogs I’ve seen for a long time.


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## splashgirl45 (9 April 2020)

Meowy Catkin said:



			When I was young  I can remember that a lot of people had very attractive mongrels that were black and tan (like a chunky, courser furred Doberman, although what breeds were in them I have no idea). I can't remember any of those dogs struggling to breathe or dying young.

Where have the b&t mongrels gone? I haven't seen one for years.
		
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pics of 2 black and tan mongrels from my past. the first one was from petticoat lane in london roughly about 1955 ish,  she was my first dog and i went with my dad and chose her from a stall with about 10 puppies milling about,  she lived till 15, that was the last photo i took of her when she was quite old...  the other one was bought for my sister in about 1972 and she lived till 16


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## splashgirl45 (9 April 2020)

while looking for the black and tan pics i came across a couple of my deerhound which i thought some of the lurcher/greyhound people would like to see


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## {97702} (9 April 2020)

Fabulous pics splash girl 😊 I love the black and tan dogs.... and I adore deerhounds, I’ve always wanted one ❤️❤️❤️

ETA - just did a google search - I remember wanting an Ardkinglas deerhound 😊😊


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## splashgirl45 (9 April 2020)

i thought you might like the deerhound ones levrier  she was a fab dog but lost her before she was 10...too soon......  the black and tan girls were both great dogs but very different in temperament,  mine was a bit of a hunter(it must be my influence) but my sisters was  not really interested in squirrels but loved a tennis ball, both very healthy until the end...


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## yhanni (9 April 2020)

Used to have Deerhounds but the osteosarcoma is a bastard.  I think the healthiest dogs I've ever had were Patterdales - bred two litters and I'm still in touch with the friends who own a 17 year old from the first litter and a 15 year old from the second. Hard to keep at home though as they were master escapologists and off ratting or rabbiting. Lovely with people, other dogs, chickens and cats but a fluffy thing was fair game.


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## splashgirl45 (9 April 2020)

Levrier said:



			Fabulous pics splash girl 😊 I love the black and tan dogs.... and I adore deerhounds, I’ve always wanted one ❤️❤️❤️

ETA - just did a google search - I remember wanting an Ardkinglas deerhound 😊😊
		
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i did as well but she didnt seem to sell many so mine came from gnosall in staffs from a well respected breeder but i cant now remember her name, it was 50 years ago


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## {97702} (9 April 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			i did as well but she didnt seem to sell many so mine came from gnosall in staffs from a well respected breeder but i cant now remember her name, it was 50 years ago
		
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no all I remember from reading about the Ardkinglas breeder - Miss Anastasia Noble - is that she used to come down to dog shows from Scotland on the train! 😊😊

Just googled the deerhound that started my admiration for the breed.... Ch Malvina.... in 1986 or so! 😱


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## Meowy Catkin (9 April 2020)

Lovely seeing those black and tans.  Thanks for posting the pics of them and the jumping deerhound.


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## Cinnamontoast (9 April 2020)

CorvusCorax said:



			Like I said...they haven't evolved. They're still, mentally, out in the desert with the Bedouin hunting deer 

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🦌🤣


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## lme (10 April 2020)

Levrier said:



			I’m sort of envious but not? 😄 They are so gorgeous, I’d love to have the strength of character to have one.... but over the years I’ve even avoided lurchers with saluki in them just in case 🙄😂😂

any chance we could have pictures? 😊😊
		
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This is Darla aka ASBO


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## splashgirl45 (10 April 2020)

beautiful and looks like butter wouldnt melt


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## lme (10 April 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			beautiful and looks like butter wouldnt melt
		
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Looks can be deceptive 😂


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## {97702} (10 April 2020)

lme said:



			This is Darla aka ASBO
View attachment 43939

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oh she is stunning ❤️❤️❤️ Maybe I have been wrong to resist for so long... ❤️


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## splashgirl45 (10 April 2020)

lme said:



			Looks can be deceptive 😂
		
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dont i know it, the lurcher not the well behaved collie cross


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