# Warmbloods and soundness



## Moggy (13 July 2017)

Im just starting to look for a 4-6 yo to take over competing from my veteran at dressage ..... the dilema i have is i want to be competative to a reasonable level which points to a warmblood but then you hear all of the lameness problems people have. 
Are the horror stories so numerous because people naturally post their issues or because of the  large number of poor quality WBs sent to uk ? Have people had more success going to Holland/ germany to buy?

Please share your WB stories... good and bad


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## Batgirl (13 July 2017)

I have a Wb X. Never had a days lameness and he is 13.

However I know 2 that are a bit fragile, though no worse than any other breed really (if I look at the yard there are many Wbs and then a mix of others - the vet calls and injuries are pretty much spread out.


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## Goldenstar (13 July 2017)

My best horse was a warmblood x ISH she was tough and sound .
I then bought two BWB one admittedly had its career cut short by a freak accident the other was a vets dream she was a lovely horse but a disaster .
I have recently bought a tradional ISH hes eight and romped through his vetting that was after two well bred well brought up WB 's failed both were five year olds .
I do think WB's seem to have more of the disastrous early onset unsoundness issues by that I am talking about horses with degenative type conditions under ten years old .


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## atropa (13 July 2017)

Mine is a Belgian Warmblood, imported from Belgium as a 4yo, well bred by a Ramiro Z sire out of a Darco mare. 
From what I've been told (and seen of the records) she was lightly competed in BS for a few years, then was out of consistent competitive work between the ages of 11-13 until I bought her. I worked her for 9 months, doing RC stuff jumping no more than 70cm a few times a month. She is very sensitive skinned, can't handle too much grazing and has recently been diagnosed with navicular. Before I got her she was badly tangled in a wire fence and as a result has bad scarring on her hind legs.

In contrast, I also have a very low maintenance ISH who can be trusted to be chucked out into a field and survive. 

I wouldn't swap my warmblood for all the tea in China though, she is brave, bold, self assured, absolutely stunning and when she is in work she looks and feels fantastic. She has broken my heart a million times over with all her issues.


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## cundlegreen (13 July 2017)

atropa said:



			Mine is a Belgian Warmblood, imported from Belgium as a 4yo, well bred by a Ramiro Z sire out of a Darco mare. 
From what I've been told (and seen of the records) she was lightly competed in BS for a few years, then was out of consistent competitive work between the ages of 11-13 until I bought her. I worked her for 9 months, doing RC stuff jumping no more than 70cm a few times a month. She is very sensitive skinned, can't handle too much grazing and has recently been diagnosed with navicular. Before I got her she was badly tangled in a wire fence and as a result has bad scarring on her hind legs.

In contrast, I also have a very low maintenance ISH who can be trusted to be chucked out into a field and survive. 

I wouldn't swap my warmblood for all the tea in China though, she is brave, bold, self assured, absolutely stunning and when she is in work she looks and feels fantastic. She has broken my heart a million times over with all her issues.
		
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My vet says WB's keep her in business!


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## ihatework (13 July 2017)

There are a gazillion 'such-and-such' sportshorses sites springing up everywhere selling poorly conformed warmbloods most of which have been shipped over from the continent. Ask yourself the question of how much it costs to breed, ship, break and 'produce' - then consider if the price reflects that. If it doesn't it might be wise to consider why the horse might have been imported to the U.K.


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## Goldenstar (13 July 2017)

TBH I know there are lots as poor warmblood over here .
But you also nicely made expensive ones who go spectacularly wrong .


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## Fun Times (13 July 2017)

Friend of mine worked with warmbloods on the continent. She said those that they knew wouldn't make the grade over there were sent to the UK for sale. I have a British bred warmblood and he has been super, old age catching up with him at 16 but otherwise been fab.


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## Farma (13 July 2017)

I think warmblood is a super broad term to group together and you will find vastly different types under the same term. 

I think if the confo is good, they haven't been started too early and if you are lucky enough to see any of the family esp older siblings out competing you will have a better idea of how the lineage fair after a few years of work.

if you go abroad from the limited number I have seen it seems common to start them early and show them off as almost finished products (uphill round frames, very engaged behind etc) at 4 and sometimes even 3. A lot of people pay mega bucks for flashy horses ridden like that at a young age. In your position my temptation would be to buy one not started and then take your time allowing the body to develop so you know what strain has been put on them, giving them maximum chance of long term soundness.


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## junglefairy (13 July 2017)

I think there's a few reasons warmbloods get a bad rep for being injury prone, the main one being that the majority of warmbloods are used for competition and, therefore, are physically pushed harder as a breed than most others (similar to racing TBs).

 Also:
- warmblood is a broad term and there's a lot of them out there;
- a lot of warmbloods are started young and asked to compete and perform from a young age (e.g. age classes);
- big flashy movement probably puts more strain on joints and greater risk of injury than  conservative movement;
- there does seem to be a lot of poorly conformed warmbloods,though I'm not sure any more so than any other breed.

Personally I love a big, powerful, flashy warmblood.


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## Clannad48 (13 July 2017)

We have had out DWB from the age of 6 - who is now 16 - we did have a problem with lameness when we had her in the first year -the vet couldn't find a reason for it but we took her shoes off and not a problem with lameness since. According to the farrier she has stone crushing feet now The only other big issue we have had with her was in November 2010 when she had her splint bone broken in 5 places following being kicked by a pony at a gate (the x-ray is in my profile). Since then she has been sound and has competed at various disciplines barefoot, show jumping on a surface and grass, dressage, cross-country and most recently Endurance.


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## Nudibranch (13 July 2017)

I have a WB in the old fashioned meaning of the term; TB x drum. He is still undergoing investigation for toe dragging and 4 years down the line we still don't have a diagnosis.
My farrier sees a lot of bigger horses with issues and is adamant their working lives are shorter. Of course there will be exceptions but that's his overall assessment. My vet said pretty much the same! In their views the bigger the horse the more issues there tend to be.


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## Moggy (13 July 2017)

Thanks for all your comments.  Really interesting.
There seem to be so many over priced wb out there with major faults.... if i could find a classy wb x ish that maybe the answer.


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## Antw23uk (13 July 2017)

Whats scary is the amount of warmblood influenced Irish sports horses coming out of Ireland now but sadly its the demand! You wouldn't find me owning one. Friends and acquaintances with them have had nothing but trouble and someones always seem to be lame but I guess thats not a very scientific approach to making a decision it just means I know a lot of horse owners, lol!


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## ycbm (13 July 2017)

I can only tell you my own history and that of close friends.

1. Mine. Bought at four, broken at four, imported at four, father jumping GP. Cost £6,700, dead at ten with congenital wobblers and a C4 vertebra in five pieces and serious ataxia. 

2.  Mine. Imported at 2, bought at 2 for £3,500,  father died early after showing great promise, grandfather Voltaire, mother graded top class. Bought to event, refused to jump. Sold as a dressage prospect for£7,500.  Would now likely get a kissing spines diagnosis.

3. Mine. Broken at four, imported at four, paid £10,000, father GP dressage  operated on at seven for congenital kissing spines, dead at eight from head fractures and fitting. 

4. Mine/gifted. By a GP SJ KWPN.  Lame on and off since five years old. Successfully barefoot rehabbed at ten. Turned out to be a mental nutcase. Put down at eleven.

5. Friend's. From Woodlander stud. Paid over £30,000. Very low mileage. Competed but not placed at elementary.  Lame at eleven from probable hock spavin (still in diagnosis).

6. Friend's. British warmblood. Broken at seven. Operated on for kissing spines at nine. Failed. Has arthritic fetlocks. Now a brood mare, heaven help anyone who buys the offspring!

7. Friend's. British warmblood. Broken at four and turned away. Currently five and has only progressed to being ridden in walk. Sharp as a knife, bucks off its rider at the slightest provocation. First pro it was sent to to break refused to sit on it. Second got it going but you'd have to pay me a lot of money to sit on it. 

8. Friend's. British Warmblood. A throwback to something much, much smaller than either parent. Easy, useful, but petty ordinary.

9. Friend's. British warmblood. Huge, long backed,  ordinary, nothing special but no particular issues either, except serious separation anxiety. 

This is every single warmblood I've been in close contact with.


Would I ever buy another?  Hell no!


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## Pearlsasinger (13 July 2017)

Nudibranch said:



			I have a WB in the old fashioned meaning of the term; TB x drum. He is still undergoing investigation for toe dragging and 4 years down the line we still don't have a diagnosis.
My farrier sees a lot of bigger horses with issues and is adamant their working lives are shorter. Of course there will be exceptions but that's his overall assessment. My vet said pretty much the same! In their views the bigger the horse the more issues there tend to be.
		
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I came to the same conclusion after losing 3 big horses very long before they were even middle aged, never mind old, a Clydesdale, a Shire and a IDx.  I now have a 23 yr old 16hh Westphalian Kaltblut who has been sound all the time I've had her, except for a foot abscess which cleared up when the Prascend kicked in.

I think the Westphalian was imported in foal, presumably to a TB, and then sold on but I have no idea how sound her offspring was.  If she was younger (and so was I), I would seriously consider putting her in foal to one of the Standardbreds at the nearby stud to get a finer but hardy foal.


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## Mike007 (14 July 2017)

Big horses do not mature till eight or nine, It is up to the trainer/rider to manage the work load . In my opinion most lameness/unsoundness is brought on by overwork at a critical phase of development. The problem is not warmbloods ,the problem is the people taht buy warm bloods.


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## Lyle (14 July 2017)

3 years ago I bought a 5yo Australian bred WB. He's a smaller horse, only 15.3, but good bone and still athletic. His feet are excellent, no shoes on ever, and he's a barefoot dream, I'm very lucky! At 5 he was pretty much green broke, crooked, stiff but w/t/c. I've taken him s.l.o.w.l.y to say the least, and yet the past six months has seen a super acceleration in his training and he's feeling strong training at medium level.  Once he started to fully mature everything came together! He's never had a lame day The whole time I've had him. Cheap to feed, cheap to run.


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## TheresaW (14 July 2017)

At my old yard, there were a full brother and sister, the mare was a year older. Both were bought as foals. The mare now 10 and doing really well at dressage. The gelding was brought on slowly, but very early on, problems were found. He had a lot of issues, spent a hell of a lot of time on box rest, which he coped with fantastically, he was a really nice lad to be around. Sadly he was PTS last year with wobblers. He was probably only ridden for around 6 months of his whole life. 

Owner of the gelding also paid a lot of money for an 8yo, big flashy gelding. He retired 18 months later with navicular and other lameness issues. Passed vetting with flying colours.


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## jumping.jack_flash (14 July 2017)

Horses are like cars - they can all go wrong (even after 5 star vetting). x


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			Horses are like cars - they can all go wrong (even after 5 star vetting). x
		
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Yes but then some cars are more reliable Than others


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## Snowy Celandine (14 July 2017)

I've only owned one full WB (a Zangersheide gelding) and he was always breaking -filled legs, stifle injuries and so on and so forth. Not sure if I can read anything into that or not?


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## Nudibranch (14 July 2017)

Mike007 said:



			Big horses do not mature till eight or nine, It is up to the trainer/rider to manage the work load . In my opinion most lameness/unsoundness is brought on by overwork at a critical phase of development. The problem is not warmbloods ,the problem is the people taht buy warm bloods.
		
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I don't necessarily agree. Mine wasn't even sat on until he turned 4 and at 6 he has done nothing but light hacking. The toe dragging started at 18 months. Absolutely no doubt, next time I buy a riding horse I will go back to Cleveland Bays.


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## FestiveFuzz (14 July 2017)

I'm sure I was just incredibly unlucky but my first WB was the 5yo I bought last summer. She did her DDFT in the field literally a month into owning her and ultrasounds showed mineralisation of both forelegs suggesting there had been an ongoing issue. She was pts in February after a heartbreaking battle to keep her sound. My vet felt it was a congenital issue with the way her tendons were formed. Her tendons are now at the RVC in a hope of one day getting to the bottom of what happened. 

My other WB I've had for 6 months, and touch wood aside from thin soles seems to be doing fine. 

So yeah, bit of a mixed bag my end.


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## FestiveFuzz (14 July 2017)

Nudibranch said:



			I don't necessarily agree. Mine wasn't even sat on until he turned 4 and at 6 he has done nothing but light hacking. The toe dragging started at 18 months. Absolutely no doubt, next time I buy a riding horse I will go back to Cleveland Bays.
		
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Echo Nudibranch. My 5yo had been lightly backed the previous summer and then turned away. When we bought her she'd just begun being sat on again and when she broke was only in light work. She certainly wasn't hammered in any way.


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## spacefaer (14 July 2017)

Warmbloods aren't a breed - they're a type,  and a mongrel type at that,  made by infusions of (mainly) TB blood into draft and carriage horse types.  Sadly,  you don't seem to get hybrid vigour with these crosses!  

My Dutch horse was bought as a rising 4 yr old,  just backed by his English importer.  He is now 17. He has some slight age-related issues but has barely taken a wrong step in his life.  

He was produced slowly,  because he was growing,  to GP. He has won at Inter 1 level.  He is now a schoolmaster for a friend of mine, working at Adv Med.  

They can be good!


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2017)

When horses go wrong it's for lots of reasons .
Very big horses from the tradional cold blood /hot blood crosses often go wrong to this I feeel is because of the body and back conformation if they have the body of the draughty which was not developed for rideing it takes a lot of time and skill to develop the back and sometimes conformation means it's always not ideal .
Likewise the warmbloods you so often see them flashy and uphill when young but with subtle incorrectnesses in the rhytmn showing the horse is not moving through the back correctly .
I been on a bit of a journey with all this since I got a horse with KS I have now changed my training system a little to include more work on developing the back and body in a very boring and time consuming way .
However I have to say all the horses are stronger (or look stronger ) I am still exploring all this the internet is great for this sort of stuff and although you have to sort the wheat from the chaff there's so much stuff you can take good stuff from .
I think although some horses are ' born lame ' I think lots have the seeds sown for lameness in their early working lives .
When I think back to the first yard I worked on which did a lot of backing we did so much walking the horses were long lined , led from other horses up and down grassy hills .they where never ridden long but they walked and walked and walked in big fields the yard was in the most marvellous location for horses with loads of  those small hills you get after glaciers drop gravel .
They did not go in schools but they where developing their backs and their gaits all the time for them selves .
Now you could back horses like that now as a buisiness it was not particularly safe in the way we look at it now .
To long in school often on not great surface not working on a good grass to much going round in circles I do think part of it is what we are doing more of .


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## MotherOfChickens (14 July 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			When horses go wrong it's for lots of reasons .
Very big horses from the tradional cold blood /hot blood crosses often go wrong to this I feeel is because of the body and back conformation if they have the body of the draughty which was not developed for rideing it takes a lot of time and skill to develop the back and sometimes conformation means it's always not ideal .
Likewise the warmbloods you so often see them flashy and uphill when young but with subtle incorrectnesses in the rhytmn showing the horse is not moving through the back correctly .
I been on a bit of a journey with all this since I got a horse with KS I have now changed my training system a little to include more work on developing the back and body in a very boring and time consuming way .
However I have to say all the horses are stronger (or look stronger ) I am still exploring all this the internet is great for this sort of stuff and although you have to sort the wheat from the chaff there's so much stuff you can take good stuff from .
I think although some horses are ' born lame ' I think lots have the seeds sown for lameness in their early working lives .
When I think back to the first yard I worked on which did a lot of backing we did so much walking the horses were long lined , led from other horses up and down grassy hills .they where never ridden long but they walked and walked and walked in big fields the yard was in the most marvellous location for horses with loads of  those small hills you get after glaciers drop gravel .
They did not go in schools but they where developing their backs and their gaits all the time for them selves .
Now you could back horses like that now as a buisiness it was not particularly safe in the way we look at it now .
To long in school often on not great surface not working on a good grass to much going round in circles I do think part of it is what we are doing more of .
		
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really great post.

Dr Deb Bennet maintains that large, heavy draft-derived horses shouldnt be ridden-they arent built for it in the back, in bone density and neither are their feet (I can't remember her cut off now but expect its easy to find). Also maintains that any sort of work including pole work etc must be built up much more slowly than most of us would. 

I have access to those sorts of hills GS, call them Kames up here. full of badger sets.

I am going back to native ponies-not that I've ever owned a WB but fed up of horses and their complications.


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## Meowy Catkin (14 July 2017)

spacefaer said:



			Warmbloods aren't a breed - they're a type,  and a mongrel type at that,  made by infusions of (mainly) TB blood into draft and carriage horse types.  Sadly,  you don't seem to get hybrid vigour with these crosses!
		
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Why would they have hybrid vigour when they aren't a true hybrid? Hybrids are a cross between two different _species_ eg a horse x donkey or tiger x lion. 

I have to agree with a lot of GS' post. I do think that too many circles (work on surfaces, lunging and horsewalkers) adds up. A lady I used to livery with, who had been a racehorse lass, always despaired about the lack of straight line work. It doesn't guarantee a sound horse, but you have to try to stack the odds in your favour.


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2017)

spacefaer said:



			Warmbloods aren't a breed - they're a type,  and a mongrel type at that,  made by infusions of (mainly) TB blood into draft and carriage horse types.  Sadly,  you don't seem to get hybrid vigour with these crosses!  

My Dutch horse was bought as a rising 4 yr old,  just backed by his English importer.  He is now 17. He has some slight age-related issues but has barely taken a wrong step in his life.  

He was produced slowly,  because he was growing,  to GP. He has won at Inter 1 level.  He is now a schoolmaster for a friend of mine, working at Adv Med.  

They can be good!
		
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No one can look at the horses wining competitions today and say warmbloods are not good .
However I suspect the they have as bad stats for long term soundness as those everybody gets so exercised about in the TB industry .


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## sywell (14 July 2017)

Moggy said:



			Im just starting to look for a 4-6 yo to take over competing from my veteran at dressage ..... the dilema i have is i want to be competative to a reasonable level which points to a warmblood but then you hear all of the lameness problems people have. 
Are the horror stories so numerous because people naturally post their issues or because of the  large number of poor quality WBs sent to uk ? Have people had more success going to Holland/ germany to buy?

Please share your WB stories... good and bad
		
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It is quite correct there are dealers who import rubbish but you get what you pay for. Buying a horse from a breeder that has pink papers and has done the Futurity(where it has been vetted). buying a horse that is graded by a studbook like Hannoverians is a reliable guide. Or visit my website.


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## ycbm (14 July 2017)

sywell said:



			It is quite correct there are dealers who import rubbish but you get what you pay for. Buying a horse from a breeder that has pink papers and has done the Futurity(where it has been vetted). buying a horse that is graded by a studbook like Hannoverians is a reliable guide. Or visit my website.
		
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 All three of my purchased warmbloods had terrific papers and for their age and level of training were expensive horses. For different reasons, none of them could do the job they were bought to do and two were dead by ten years old. My friend's elite mare, Hannoverian lines British Warmblood which cost over thirty grand has spavins at eleven when she's done almost nothing in her life. I do think that there are serious issues with breeding for movement to the exclusion of longevity.

I doubt if the less well bred warmbloods actually have the same level of physical/mental issues, and I expect they make good all rounders, a bit like good IDx, the original 'Warmblood'.


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## nikkimariet (14 July 2017)

We've never had a WB with a soundness problem yet.

Maybe we've always chosen well? Or maybe our management (turnout, barefoot, planned competing/fitness schedules etc) works?

The trend is for bigger movement, longer legs and less bone and that does worry me. There are several blood lines I would never ever buy because of their rep to fall apart.

My youngster is a modern leggy type but with plenty of bone and good soundness rates on both sides. He's being ridden at a (very) basic WTC currently but I want to scale it back to 1 session in the school and maybe 1/2 walk/trot hacks whilst he finishes growing. If he's ready for the age classes, he'll do them. If he's not, he won't. He's got a lovely movement but I'll let that develop at its own rate, his extensions won't disappear just because I'm not working on them!


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## ycbm (14 July 2017)

nikkimariet said:



			We've never had a WB with a soundness problem yet.

Maybe we've always chosen well? Or maybe our management (turnout, barefoot, planned competing/fitness schedules etc) works?
		
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I think you have one out of work right now with a very serious problem with ulcers?


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## Turitea (14 July 2017)

It is quite funny, the reputation WBs have in the UK is the reputation TBs have in lot of regions on the continent.


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## ycbm (14 July 2017)

Turitea said:



			It is quite funny, the reputation WBs have in the UK is the reputation TBs have in lot of regions on the continent.  

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But they have that reputation in this country too!


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## Turitea (14 July 2017)

Ah ok, I always have had the impression TB are more "respected" in the UK. On the continent they are called "the crazy ones".


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## Sussexbythesea (14 July 2017)

I've got a 22yr old BWB that I bought at 10 still hackable but he has had a few problems. He had SI injury which prevented an affiliated dressage career (I suspect that might be why he was sold abroad via a dealer) and annular ligament surgery at 19. However he's sound enough to ride and looks amazing at the moment. He's been a generally great all-rounder.


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## windand rain (14 July 2017)

I do think that they have problems because they are and have been bred so big the biggest competition horse I ever saw as a child and young adult was about 16.2 the great big warmbloods of today are small at that height. I do think too that with the mixed breeding often it is the worst traits that appear in the progeny. I also feel that there really is no need to breed them so big there isn't a rider alive that wouldnt look fine on a 16.2 or smaller horse. it is the old addage just because it is bigger doesnt mean it is better. Temperamentally there are a lot of huge warm bloods ridden by tiny female riders and as a result they become thugs and in some cases dangerous. A triner of problem horses once told me he only ever was asked to treat the behaviour of big warmbloods ridden by small slight women and Welsh cobs

If you can be bothered to read there is a funny story about that brother in law is from Texas and everything is big in texas he complained about everything being small here from his meals out to cars etc everything was bigger in Texas. Dad was the head pschiatrist in a lovely Cottage type  hospital when he semi retired and took said brother in law around the hospital as he had asked for a tour. He very boastfully said to dad "we have much bigger better hospitals in Texas"
Dad replied "so I understand but this is a lunatic asylum"
that shut him up


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## Meredith (14 July 2017)

Sorry to be picky but I couldn't resist......

"Big warmbloods ridden by small slight women and Welsh Cobs"

Now that I want to see!

P.S. My AES registered supposedly warm blood is 18 and a little stiff behind now but has only ever had 2 small abcesses and a couple of small cuts in the 8 years I have owned her.
Hoping that doesn't jinx everything, fingers crossed.


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## fredflop (14 July 2017)

My 18 yo warmblood is the soundest horse I've ever owned... never been lame sick or sorry in years!


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## ycbm (14 July 2017)

Can I ask people with single horses,  'never gone wrong' , to tell us if they can whether the horse is by a  elite (GP level)  stallion and whether its papers have a lot of kur/preferente/prestatie in the close history?  I have a theory it's the highly bred ones that have more weak ones among them.


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2017)

My kwpn papered horse is actually an American saddle bred both his parents where ASB's imported to holland from the US .
His grand sire is a stallion called Harlem Globe trotter how my horse has stayed sound is a mystery as far as we can work it out he was pulling a carriage at two if you google the sire you will get a favour of his manic paces and biazzre standing stance .
He's 17 and field masters hunting which he loves I thought he would never stand the work but he's proved me very wrong I worked very hard to 'normalise 'is way of going and have managed to a certain extent he's as mad as a box of frogs but he's the gentlest kind horse to handle .
He's tough what makes a horse tough it's hard to but your finger on but some horse just are tough .


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## ycbm (14 July 2017)

He sounds wonderful!


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## eggs (14 July 2017)

I've got a pink papered Hannoverian mare (brought as a foal) by a GP stallion (De Niro) with a dam line chock full of head stud book mates.  She is big framed and big moving and at 12 years old has never been lame.

Out of all the horses I have had, mainly competition bred warmbloods, the one with the biggest soundness issues was a TB.


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## Meredith (14 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			Can I ask people with single horses,  'never gone wrong' , to tell us if they can whether the horse is by a  elite (GP level)  stallion and whether its papers have a lot of kur/preferente/prestatie in the close history?  I have a theory it's the highly bred ones that have more weak ones among them.
		
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PM'd you


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## tristar (14 July 2017)

i disagree about too much training, circles etc, most horse don`t get enough training  slow enough over a period of time, and when riding in an arena a lot of the time is going straight,well i do anyway, i find that is the time, when on a good surface, to concentrate on riding very straight and making the horse`s hind end follow the front in straight tracks, of course hacking is invaluable for its free marching forward effect.

its not just what you  do its not that simple, its how you do it, and how effective slow, gentle subtle work is at allowing the horse to train itself.

i think shutting all horse gobs with a flash is ridiculous, quite honestly i find it impossible to have respect for anyone who does that.

if i wanted soundness i would not look at a warmblood, part bred arabs have it for me, tough sound and a good mind.

warmbloods are are not bred close enough to very pure breeds to benefit from hybrid vigour, they tend to come out as mongrels more so than a definite cross bred of two or three very pure breeds, they are genetically very diverse and i don`t think you can blame shortcomings on the blood of work type horses necessarily, just look at the old  way of crossing shire, clydesdale and cleveland bays to produce comp horses, there was nothing wrong with their backs, they could do it all.

a lot of continental breeding is on a commercial scale and i don`t think enough thought is given to breeding horses that have the most important qualities, they are just a product.


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			He sounds wonderful!
		
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Google his granddad you will see what I mean .


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## ycbm (14 July 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			Google his granddad you will see what I mean .
		
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Well, yes, not quite your average warmblood!


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## spacefaer (14 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			Can I ask people with single horses,  'never gone wrong' , to tell us if they can whether the horse is by a  elite (GP level)  stallion and whether its papers have a lot of kur/preferente/prestatie in the close history?  I have a theory it's the highly bred ones that have more weak ones among them.
		
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Can't give you the exact breeding, as he now belongs to my friend, but he is by Kelvin (http://majesticgaits.com/kelvin.htm)
out of a Notaris mare. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/notaris

Don't know if it helps your theory - he's definitely very sound!


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## Rollin (14 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			Can I ask people with single horses,  'never gone wrong' , to tell us if they can whether the horse is by a  elite (GP level)  stallion and whether its papers have a lot of kur/preferente/prestatie in the close history?  I have a theory it's the highly bred ones that have more weak ones among them.
		
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Mine is now dead, pts aged 36 years, ridden until 35 years, never gave me a vet bill in 20 years.  Purchased for Ride and Drive, he jumped like a stag.  I was sure he was a part-bred CB but never discovered his breeding.

He was the reason for my passion for the Cleveland Bay.  I now have/have had 8 pure bred CB's in total and the only lameness has been, field accident e.g. kicks knocks, foot abscess and as they are very good doers, have one mare no longer in work because of laminitis.


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## Kat (14 July 2017)

My friend is still hunting and jumping her 24 year old warmblood, he's amazing and you would never guess his age! He has no ongoing issues and no arthritis and is often mistaken for a youngster due to his typical warmblood brain &#128580;

On our yard it seems to be the coloured cobs that are walking vets bills!


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## Luci07 (15 July 2017)

Strictly speaking, a traditional ID X TB is a warmblood. My own WB was Czech registered and looking at his bloodlines, had a lot of SF and TB there crossed with a bred called Furisio (Hungarian WB). KWPN is like the ISH...it's a type really.

I have always been interested in Irish horse breeding and have therefore seen which traits do seem to come out time and time again. Having really enjoyed my lovely boy I am trying to do the same now with WB breeding but this post raises a good point. I have dug out posts which consistently show which lines tend to be better for amateurs but can find nothing which relates to soundness. I would choose to walk away from any horse that had done a lot or been heavily produced as a youngster. That is because I have seen a large number of young Irish horses, who had hunted at 3, break down by 6 and out of 8, 3 were put down and never made it back.  Could be wrong but I have neither the time or the money as a single horse owner to risk this.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2017)

Too many Irish horses hunt too much too young and too weak however this would be bad for any horse so it's not about  breeding or type .
its possible to indroduce four years olds to hounds without damaging them but using them as hirelings is not the way to do it this has happened to too many young Irish horses 
There's a lot good in Ireland they don't overfeed the young horses the horses run out and fend for themselves they know their horses and are not played with too much and of course there are good and poor producers everywhere .


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2017)

Just also want to add we must never ever stop looking at what we do and how we do it the soundest young horse can be lamed by the wrong work, too little and too much .


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## MotherOfChickens (15 July 2017)

Kat said:



			On our yard it seems to be the coloured cobs that are walking vets bills!
		
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if you mean gypsy cob types then I agree but for all the ones I know that are walking vet bills the conformation faults are very noticable (generally hind end). they'd probably be fine if driven or not ridden in endless circles, overbent on crap surfaces-except the ones hammered previously as 2yos.


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## Luci07 (15 July 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			Too many Irish horses hunt too much too young and too weak however this would be bad for any horse so it's not about  breeding or type .
its possible to indroduce four years olds to hounds without damaging them but using them as hirelings is not the way to do it this has happened to too many young Irish horses 
There's a lot good in Ireland they don't overfeed the young horses the horses run out and fend for themselves they know their horses and are not played with too much and of course there are good and poor producers everywhere .
		
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I agree...I didn't mean for my post to sound as if I am criticising the ISH. The point I was trying to make (poorly) was that there is an assumption this breeding programme will yield hardy horses. However, when they start off too young, as said in your post, GS, it will frequently break them.


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## Lyle (15 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			Can I ask people with single horses,  'never gone wrong' , to tell us if they can whether the horse is by a  elite (GP level)  stallion and whether its papers have a lot of kur/preferente/prestatie in the close history?  I have a theory it's the highly bred ones that have more weak ones among them.
		
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Mine is by a currently competing GP dressage stallion, AEA Metallic (Metall) Dam was by Falkland Victory, by Falkland, very influential stallions in Australian WB breeding  producing both jumping and dressage horses up to GP.


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## Northern (15 July 2017)

Lyle said:



			Mine is by a currently competing GP dressage stallion, AEA Metallic (Metall) Dam was by Falkland Victory, by Falkland, very influential stallions in Australian WB breeding  producing both jumping and dressage horses up to GP.
		
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Love the Metallics, was lucky enough to ride a super smaller WB by him. Great temperaments and very hardy!


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## Northern (15 July 2017)

I don't really associate Warmbloods here with unsoundness, but then again I haven't really been around many (Thoroughbreds are the popular ponies in my area). I have noticed that the amount of younger Warmblood mares (with ? international breeding) for sale that are unsound for riding through paddock accidents (or not disclosed) has risen. I do wonder if the term "WB brain" is somewhat true, they tend to take longer to mature mentally and perhaps are more prone to breaking themselves through silliness rather than anything else. But you could say that for any young horse really. I've only had thoroughbreds, but would probably consider a warmblood as my next horse, so this thread has made for some interesting reading!


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## ycbm (15 July 2017)

Lyle said:



			Mine is by a currently competing GP dressage stallion, AEA Metallic (Metall) Dam was by Falkland Victory, by Falkland, very influential stallions in Australian WB breeding  producing both jumping and dressage horses up to GP.
		
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I always associate Australian horses with toughness,  I think from seeing them and the Kiwis event. Do you think it's a a fair impression?


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## Mule (15 July 2017)

A friend of mine who rides dressage at Grand Prix level has had enough of warmbloods. She thinks their soundness problems come from being too closely line bred. 
She's going back to the traditional Irish sport horse for her next youngster.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2017)

mule said:



			A friend of mine who rides dressage at Grand Prix level has had enough of warmbloods. She thinks their soundness problems come from being too closely line bred. 
She's going back to the traditional Irish sport horse for her next youngster.
		
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Not the easiest thing to find now as so many have WB in them I have just got one his grand sire was 3/4 TB and I would guess the 1/4 would be tradional Irish coloured cob.
So few tb cross stallions have tradional types as the non tb blood .


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## Mule (15 July 2017)

I'm from Ireland so there are still plenty around here! But it is scary that a lot of Warmbloods have been bred in to the ISH without regard for the effect on soundness and temperament. 
The breeders think the warmblood will make them more marketable for international buyers but anyone who buys from Ireland wants an Irish horse. If you want a warmblood you will buy from Germany or Holland surely?


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## EventingMum (15 July 2017)

We had a German bred Hanovarian we bought as a 5yo. She won her first ever event that year and show jumped and evented with us for several years. We then put her in foal and after that she did some dressage, up to medium. We sold her to a friend and at 17 she is still completely sound. 

Our ISH x KWPN evented to 2* and is a very tough sound little horse. He did injured a tendon in an accident towards the end of his career but fully recovered.

We also have an Irish horse with unrecorded breeding but his movement would certainly suggest some warmblood , again so far he has remained sound.

I have known sveral warmbloods with OCD fragments, most have had them removed sucessfully. Others I know have had typical warmblood big movement but not had the conformation or muscular development to support it and have consequently had problems. I think often they are pushed too soon and people don't think about training and fitness  they need to stay sound.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2017)

They find easy to do things even if they are not strong enough that's what gets them into bother .


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## honetpot (15 July 2017)

To he honest I am not surprised there are problems, I am sure if you tracked TB's one year and traced what they were doing at six/seven many would not be standing on four legs, for what ever reason. 
  I visited a warmblood stud and was amazed at how all the youngsters looked like TB's and also were scaled down versions of their dams. 
  When I was young, horses were old at 14, no one had school and most of your exercise was done in straight lines over a period of six days. Even riding on a rough dealers yard, they were not worked that hard, we very rarely cantered in summer when out and then only when it was soft. We had a sand track, through the farmers fields.
  Now the poor devils are ridden in circles, I hate the pessoa, an excuse for torture that the horse is tied into to create the much lauded banana  shape and driven in endless circles. Most people are trying to fit in a hours work in half an hour so it must go faster, and work harder, with no warm up and cool down. I was taught to lunge in an oval and use all the school, if nothing else it keep you fit.
  My only 'warmblood' was a reject put on the lorry to make up a load on the ferry. He had  one very pigeon toe but passed a 5 stage vetting. When he filled out he had buttressing splints the size of hens eggs on both front legs, but was sound all his life, his only vets bill a hoof abscess.
   I am one of those sad people who love looking at breeding, mainly to see what's the fashion. No one markets their stallion on progeny soundness, the one that are rubbish are just not registered or sold with a basic passport or maybe over the Channel eaten.


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## nikkimariet (15 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			I think you have one out of work right now with a very serious problem with ulcers?
		
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Legs haven't fallen off though have they cptrayes?

Good to see you're keeping up to date with our page


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			Well, yes, not quite your average warmblood!






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I reckon Tatts parents where very lucky when they got on that plane to Holland


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## Lyle (16 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			I always associate Australian horses with toughness,  I think from seeing them and the Kiwis event. Do you think it's a a fair impression?
		
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ycbm said:



			I always associate Australian horses with toughness,  I think from seeing them and the Kiwis event. Do you think it's a a fair impression?
		
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I would say as a generalisation, yes. WB breeding in Aus, for a long time has been likened to being behind the rest of the world (again, speaking in generalisations). Perhaps it's the strong infusion of these older fashioned 'working' types? 

My horse has 'old fashioned' lines on the dam's side, coarser horses with more bone. The more modern breeding of the sire has produced a more refined, yet still strong type. Body workers and Physios really like what the cross has produced in my horse. He's not conformationally perfect, but he's got great bone, compact and relatively well balanced (now that he's grown a wither finally at 8!). Not flash moving. but a very useful type of horse.


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## ycbm (16 July 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			I reckon Tatts parents where very lucky when they got on that plane to Holland
		
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Weren't they just? It's as bad as the TWHs isn't it ? What's that about, sitting on the loins of an upside down horse!?!


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## Meowy Catkin (16 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			Weren't they just? It's as bad as the TWHs isn't it ? What's that about, sitting on the loins of an upside down horse!?!
		
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Plus the tail nicking and 'setting' and the pads and weighted shoes. 

https://www.americanfarriers.com/ar...-the-fine-art-of-shoeing-american-saddlebreds


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## rachk89 (16 July 2017)

My horse is an oldenburg x connemara, by rubin star n who I think is an elite stallion. 

Major problem with him has recently been kissing spine but its being treated without surgery so hopefully he will now be fixed. 

He's had one cut that has resulted in stable rest due to location, on the fetlock. No lameness but it wouldn't heal while allowed to move. 

Other than that he gets cuts all the time from his field mates because he wants to play and they don't. Ripped I don't know how many rugs from this cheeky behaviour too. He is never nasty and none of them have cuts, he just either doesn't know boundaries or doesn't care (thinking the latter as he has been bitten enough times now to know better). 

I imagine some owners would keep him isolated so he has no scars (been told to do that by some people). But he'd be depressed so I won't. Plus the average cut can be treated with wound cream, very rarely do I have to call the vet out.


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## Luci07 (16 July 2017)

rachk89 said:



			My horse is an oldenburg x connemara, by rubin star n who I think is an elite stallion. 

Major problem with him has recently been kissing spine but its being treated without surgery so hopefully he will now be fixed. 

He's had one cut that has resulted in stable rest due to location, on the fetlock. No lameness but it wouldn't heal while allowed to move. 

Other than that he gets cuts all the time from his field mates because he wants to play and they don't. Ripped I don't know how many rugs from this cheeky behaviour too. He is never nasty and none of them have cuts, he just either doesn't know boundaries or doesn't care (thinking the latter as he has been bitten enough times now to know better). 


I had one like that and he was a pain in the a*se. He just wanted to play all the time and annoyed the proverbial so finally ended up on his own to give the others a break. What did work before I moved her onto retirement was being put out with my old mare. She put him in his place with no wounds and he behaved around her. Worth a try with a bossy mare (who doesn't kick!)
		
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## TheBayThoroughbred (16 July 2017)

At my yard one of our most talented warmbloods is constantly lame, it's so sad because she's been on box rest for months, and she's practically made to compete, yet no one can take her anywhere with her legs and hooves in such a mess. I definitely wouldn't recommend a warmblood from anywhere if you aren't prepared to wrap it in cotton wool and pay some vet and farrier fees. We have Belgian, German, and Dutch, and our German is the strongest. However, we also have an ISH, and she's really flashy, gorgeous, sweet, and sturdy. I'd recommend an ISH to be honest, but each horse is different so you may have more luck than we did with warmbloods.


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## rachk89 (16 July 2017)

Luci07 said:



			I had one like that and he was a pain in the a*se. He just wanted to play all the time and annoyed the proverbial so finally ended up on his own to give the others a break. What did work before I moved her onto retirement was being put out with my old mare. She put him in his place with no wounds and he behaved around her. Worth a try with a bossy mare (who doesn't kick!)
		
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I wish I could but they keep the geldings separate from the mares here, plus he has to be on rigcalm to stop him jumping ontop of the geldings which works with them, not sure if it would with a mare though. I don't think any of the people who have mares would want him with their horses, he is too likely to mount them. 

I have noticed though recently sometimes it seems he gets 'kicked out' of the group of geldings and he is off by himself which is unusual as usually he is with at least one other horse. I think they must have lost it with him recently and chased him away, but then a few days later he is back with them. Hopefully it keeps him in check but unlikely.


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## AandK (16 July 2017)

TheBayThoroughbred said:



			At my yard one of our most talented warmbloods is constantly lame, it's so sad because she's been on box rest for months, and she's practically made to compete, yet no one can take her anywhere with her legs and hooves in such a mess. I definitely wouldn't recommend a warmblood from anywhere if you aren't prepared to wrap it in cotton wool and pay some vet and farrier fees. We have Belgian, German, and Dutch, and our German is the strongest. However, we also have an ISH, and she's really flashy, gorgeous, sweet, and sturdy. I'd recommend an ISH to be honest, but each horse is different so you may have more luck than we did with warmbloods.
		
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It's worth mentioning that ISH is a type of warmblood. Traditionally a hot blood (TB) crossed with cold blood (ID), but you will find a lot of the modern ISH have the typical European 'warm blood' in them, e.g. KWPN x TB.


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## daffy44 (16 July 2017)

I'm horrified by all the fragile warmbloods!

Obviously the ISH is technically a warmblood as AandK said, and my personal opinion is the introduction of contintental warmblood blood into the traditional ID x TB is a crying shame, as the original true ID x TB was such a wonderful horse.

I also disagree with the view that the better bred warmbloods are the most fragile, I think when you breed from the horses that have proved themselves at the highest level in their chose discipline, then you are automatically breeding a certain level of physical strength and toughness, far better that than breeding from the latest super flashy 3/4yr old that has proved nothing.

Personally I have ridden warmbloods for over a decade, competing at dressage up to GP, and the only soundness issue have had was one horse that got badly kicked in the field, which is certainly not a warmblood specific injury!  I've never had a horse that has had a joint injection, or that has recieved any specialised veterinary care to do its job, they all have daily turn out, hack etc.


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## ycbm (16 July 2017)

I also disagree with the view that the better bred warmbloods are the most fragile, I think when you breed from the horses that have proved themselves at the highest level in their chose discipline, then you are automatically breeding a certain level of physical strength and toughness, far better that than breeding from the latest super flashy 3/4yr old that has proved nothing.
		
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I would agree with this if figures were published on how many failed before they even got to prove themselves.


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## daffy44 (16 July 2017)

ycbm, thats a good point, and I would also be interested in seeing figures like that, but even without such evidence I would still prefer to be breeding from the horses who have proved themselves physically and mentally.


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## Goldenstar (16 July 2017)

AandK said:



			It's worth mentioning that ISH is a type of warmblood. Traditionally a hot blood (TB) crossed with cold blood (ID), but you will find a lot of the modern ISH have the typical European 'warm blood' in them, e.g. KWPN x TB.
		
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The traditional ISH does not have continental blood .
It was interesting when I was looking recently the most expensive horse I saw was a beautiful traditional ISH it's was a lovely lovely horse .
But the dealers and producers actually will tell you this ones tradional breeding I have never come across that before . They are definatly awake to the fact that there are people about looking for traditional sport horses .


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## jumping.jack_flash (17 July 2017)

Do you think some times certain lameness issues could be brought on by the horse still needing to grow? grabbing straws here.. but like ligaments... you hear about this in children, that they get grow spurts .. and other parts of the body need to catch up?


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## Mule (17 July 2017)

There are some breeders of the ISH who are concerned about the infusion of continental warmblood into the breed. They have set up the Traditional Irish horse Association within the ISH studbook. Any horse with this acronym can only have ID/ TB / Connemara breeding.


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## ycbm (17 July 2017)

daffy44 said:



			ycbm, thats a good point, and I would also be interested in seeing figures like that, but even without such evidence I would still prefer to be breeding from the horses who have proved themselves physically and mentally.
		
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This is the only study I know of. Median length of career of dressage Hanoverians is shockingly short at five years from first competing, but it's not completely clear without reading the entire thing what the reasons for it are. The abstract is also a bit confusing, suggesting that the horses are dead when the career stops but I think that may be a mis translation.


The full study is available to download, but it's in German and mine is nowhere near good enough. Is there a German reader on the forum willing to read it and tell us what it says - it looks very technical!?


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## sywell (17 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			All three of my purchased warmbloods had terrific papers and for their age and level of training were expensive horses. For different reasons, none of them could do the job they were bought to do and two were dead by ten years old. My friend's elite mare, Hannoverian lines British Warmblood which cost over thirty grand has spavins at eleven when she's done almost nothing in her life. I do think that there are serious issues with breeding for movement to the exclusion of longevity.

I doubt if the less well bred warmbloods actually have the same level of physical/mental issues, and I expect they make good all rounders, a bit like good IDx, the original 'Warmblood'.
		
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I will go out and pat my 21 year old Danish Warmblood. When is a horse old like a car it depends how well it was looked after and how it was driven(ridden0.


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## Mule (17 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			This is the only study I know of. Median length of career of dressage Hanoverians is shockingly short at five years from first competing, but it's not completely clear without reading the entire thing what the reasons for it are. The abstract is also a bit confusing, suggesting that the horses are dead when the career stops but I think that may be a mis translation.



Perhaps they meant that the injuries resulted in euthanasia?
		
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## sywell (17 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			All three of my purchased warmbloods had terrific papers and for their age and level of training were expensive horses. For different reasons, none of them could do the job they were bought to do and two were dead by ten years old. My friend's elite mare, Hannoverian lines British Warmblood which cost over thirty grand has spavins at eleven when she's done almost nothing in her life. I do think that there are serious issues with breeding for movement to the exclusion of longevity.

I doubt if the less well bred warmbloods actually have the same level of physical/mental issues, and I expect they make good all rounders, a bit like good IDx, the original 'Warmblood'.
		
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The WBSFH and Emma Thoren did research into how horses from the major studbooks lasted in competition to see if modern breeding programs extended their active life but ran into problems because horses changed hands,countries and names. The KWPN have done a lot of work in their breeding program to breed out genetic problems that have been identified in bloodlines there was Australian research which identified over 100 genes including sweetich. The consensus among breeding directors and Katherine Stock's research is that has happened is that the health of horses has been improved by the breeeding programs and genetic selection will create sounder horses.


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## Northern (17 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			This is the only study I know of. Median length of career of dressage Hanoverians is shockingly short at five years from first competing, but it's not completely clear without reading the entire thing what the reasons for it are. The abstract is also a bit confusing, suggesting that the horses are dead when the career stops but I think that may be a mis translation.


The full study is available to download, but it's in German and mine is nowhere near good enough. Is there a German reader on the forum willing to read it and tell us what it says - it looks very technical!?
		
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If you PM me the link I'll have a read of it


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## sywell (17 July 2017)

mule said:



			A friend of mine who rides dressage at Grand Prix level has had enough of warmbloods. She thinks their soundness problems come from being too closely line bred. 
She's going back to the traditional Irish sport horse for her next youngster.
		
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It is interesting to note the eventer Red Baron passported as an Irish Sport Horse of unknown breeding is actually a pure bred DNA parentage tested Hanoverian by Medoc called Meister ridden by Zara Phillips.


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## daffy44 (17 July 2017)

I just remembered, there has also been a study done of the percentage of competing horses that individual stallions have produced.  I think it was quoted in the Australian Magazine "Horse"  It worked with the top listed dressage and show jump stallions and compared their index ratings to the percentage of registered horses competing they produced.  It made very interesting reading.


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## milliepops (17 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			This is the only study I know of. Median length of career of dressage Hanoverians is shockingly short at five years from first competing, but it's not completely clear without reading the entire thing what the reasons for it are. The abstract is also a bit confusing, suggesting that the horses are dead when the career stops but I think that may be a mis translation.


The full study is available to download, but it's in German and mine is nowhere near good enough. Is there a German reader on the forum willing to read it and tell us what it says - it looks very technical!?
		
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If you manage to get a translation it would be interesting to know more details, because there could be lots of variables - we aren't necessarily looking at horses that started competing at prelim, for example, and then retired lame 5 years later... they could have trained and then come out at advanced medium, say and then achieved 5 years of competition before retiring... quite a different prospect.

I haven't a clue, and with no warmbloods in my stable I don't have a vested interest either way... my mongrel has been very accident prone and the only horse I've ever had with papers is a section D :lol:


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## Northern (17 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			This is the only study I know of. Median length of career of dressage Hanoverians is shockingly short at five years from first competing, but it's not completely clear without reading the entire thing what the reasons for it are. The abstract is also a bit confusing, suggesting that the horses are dead when the career stops but I think that may be a mis translation.


The full study is available to download, but it's in German and mine is nowhere near good enough. Is there a German reader on the forum willing to read it and tell us what it says - it looks very technical!?
		
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I think I found it, is it in Zuechtungskunde? By Friedrich, Koenig, Rogers and Borstel?


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## tristar (17 July 2017)

average age of a horse slaughtered in germany is 8 years.

i don`t consider id x tb  to be a warmblood, the origins of id contain much hot blood, and anyway any horse that is half tb will always be for me a part bred tb as that is the dominant and most verifiable bloodline .

today very many ish`s are by  continental warmbloods


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## Mule (17 July 2017)

tristar said:



			average age of a horse slaughtered in germany is 8 years.

i don`t consider id x tb  to be a warmblood, the origins of id contain much hot blood, and anyway any horse that is half tb will always be for me a part bred tb as that is the dominant and most verifiable bloodline .

today very many ish`s are by  continental warmbloods
		
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8 is pretty shocking. I wonder how it compares to other countries.


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## blitznbobs (17 July 2017)

mule said:



			8 is pretty shocking. I wonder how it compares to other countries.
		
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Do they eat horse meat in Germany routinely cos that would skew the averages a lot.


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## Mule (17 July 2017)

blitznbobs said:



			Do they eat horse meat in Germany routinely cos that would skew the averages a lot.
		
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Apparently there are some traditional dishes that use horsemeat but it's lessening in popularity. They may export it though


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## Northern (18 July 2017)

blitznbobs said:



			Do they eat horse meat in Germany routinely cos that would skew the averages a lot.
		
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The traditional Sauerbraten is made with horse meat. I've never seen it offered in restaurants on my visits over (mainly in Rheinland-Palatinate), but there is a local horse butcher who only sells horse meat at the weekly markets in town.


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## sywell (19 July 2017)

file:///C:/Users/User/Desktop/working%20files/WBFSH%202008/Years%20in%20Competition%20as%20measurement%20of%20longevity%20-%20Jan%20Philipsson.pdf
This link shows a paper from Upsala University on life and health of competition horses. Presented to WBFSH


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## Nasicus (20 July 2017)

sywell said:



			file:///C:/Users/User/Desktop/working%20files/WBFSH%202008/Years%20in%20Competition%20as%20measurement%20of%20longevity%20-%20Jan%20Philipsson.pdf
This link shows a paper from Upsala University on life and health of competition horses. Presented to WBFSH
		
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You'll need to link it from somewhere online, you've posted a the filepath to where the document is stored on your computer, and no one apart from someone accessing it directly on your computer (as in physically has access to your computer) will be able to access it.


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## MagicMelon (21 July 2017)

Ive always been told that an imported warmblood hasnt made the grade or else the Dutch / Germans keep them for themselves...

In my experience of owning 2 warmbloods in the past, they've generally not had the best / straightest legs which I believe often causes problems at some point. Its like they dont bother to balance the hooves right as youngsters so they end up with wonky legs.


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## Limbo1 (21 July 2017)

I had a warmblood a Zangersheilde with the posh Z brand. He was a vets dream. In the 5 years I had him he did his suspensory, was diagnosed with DJD on his hocks and finally navicular syndrome in his front feet. I did not compete just a little light dressage and hacking, I believe he was jumped too early and genetically compromised. Also very stupid.


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## silv (21 July 2017)

Really interesting thread, I have never owned a warmblood and not likely too after reading this thread.  Warmbloods are becoming more common over here now and I must say I do know of quite a few who have had soundness problems.


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