# Something isn't right?



## Hormonal Filly (3 October 2018)

I really can't work my gelding out. I've had him over 4 years, backed him myself and done everything with him. Hes only a little 14.2 chunky cob just turned 9, never been lame, sick or sorry. 

He had full body x-rays 2016 as he has a old boney lump on his leg I wanted x-rayed before I done any bigger hunter trials (Started doing 90cm+ hunter trials and some ODE's) and the vet ended up x-raying pretty much his entire body for my piece of mind (she was a friend)

He felt 'off' about 6 weeks ago mainly when I was schooling him his canter he was struggling holding a canter and would refuse any contact when cantering as well as almost suddenly lazy to ride. I trotted him up he looked slightly 'off' but nothing significant. A couple of friends, one works with horses, done a flexion test on his hocks and fetlocks. Hocks absolutely fine, right fetlock fine but left fetlock he trotted a couple of strides 1/10th lame. Gave him a couple of weeks off any work, just field rest. For piece of mind I then got the vet out who done flexion tests, watched him trot up, felt all down his back (fine) lunged him and he said hes completely sound. 

I started bringing him back into work a couple of weeks ago now, mainly just hacking with a odd 5 minutes schooling. He seems happier but still laid back to ride (use to be very wizzy and off the leg) he wants to nap more and the canter he grunts and instantly comes really above the contact and out of a outline trying to canter very slowly. If I drop the reins he rushes around. He looks sound when being ridden.. I just can't work it out. 

Hes not insured anymore as stupid me cancelled it as I've never needed it, and only have savings to use. His teeth weren't done long ago and saddle only checked a couple of months ago that hes had 4 years and was made to fit him. 

Any ideas? Vet said no idea what they'd x-ray and to nerve block it would be expensive as they'd have to go through everything.


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## Sunflowers (3 October 2018)

I would try to find a trainer/rider you really respect, to ride him a few times and objectively assess him for you. Perhaps even put him into a trainer's yard for a couple of weeks? It might cost you Â£250 a week or so, but in comparison to veterinary work ups, it's probably money well spent!

It's so hard when you have only one horse to stand back and be objective. Virtually impossible in fact. 

As well as giving you a training assessment, they should be able to give you a thorough opinion of his soundness and general demeanour, his bitting, saddle fit - the works.

Really good luck


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## Fanatical (3 October 2018)

Purely because it's something I have experience of, with the symptoms of losing the canter and the horse not wanting to go forward, I'd be inclined to start with hind suspensories. One of mine had these symptoms and was diagnosed with PSD. It was very subtle with mine and most of the time I just described him as 'not quite right'. Vets call it a 'lack of performance' as opposed to a lameness.


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## milliepops (3 October 2018)

Sunflowers said:



			I would try to find a trainer/rider you really respect, to ride him a few times and objectively assess him for you. Perhaps even put him into a trainer's yard for a couple of weeks? It might cost you Â£250 a week or so, but in comparison to veterinary work ups, it's probably money well spent!

It's so hard when you have only one horse to stand back and be objective. Virtually impossible in fact.
		
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but it's precisely because it's her horse that she's noticed something has changed.
It's very easy to overlook physical problems if you are presented a horse as a potential training issue.  This is exactly one of those situations where the owner who knows the horse best, is likely to be the sole person that can see or feel the problem.

Also a couple of weeks at Â£250 a pop would go a long way towards starting a workup at an equine clinic.

Like fanatical I have experience of these kinds of feelings being related to suspensories, which are often hand in hand with spavins and SI issues. As you've had clear hock x rays it sounds spavins are unlikely which would save some imaging costs but I'd def be looking for a good equine vet with an interest in lameness.


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## AandK (3 October 2018)

I would have an ACPAT physio give the horse a look over to check it is not muscle related.  If it isn't, then I would book him in for a full work up.  Something has changed, and just because he is sound according to vet, does not mean there is nothing bothering him.


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## shortstuff99 (3 October 2018)

What is he like being touched around the girth area? Could also perhaps be ulcers?


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## Fiona (3 October 2018)

AandK said:



			I would have an ACPAT physio give the horse a look over to check it is not muscle related.  If it isn't, then I would book him in for a full work up.  Something has changed, and just because he is sound according to vet, does not mean there is nothing bothering him.
		
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My equine physio picked up my TB mare's SI issues quite easily on a first visit....  and can obviously also sort any minor muscle issues too....

Fiona


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## Hormonal Filly (3 October 2018)

shortstuff99 said:



			What is he like being touched around the girth area? Could also perhaps be ulcers?
		
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Not girthy at all, no reaction to girth, hand, pressure, calm as you like. I clipped him out and didn't' react whatsoever to pressure all over him. Previous mare had bad ulcers, kissing spine, arthritis in hocks and she gave so many ulcer symptoms but he doesn't give any at all. 

Thanks all, i'll contact someone in my area. He was seen not long ago and he had a slightly sore side to his back but that was it. Does anyone recommend one in Bristol area?


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## Hormonal Filly (3 October 2018)

Fanatical said:



			Purely because it's something I have experience of, with the symptoms of losing the canter and the horse not wanting to go forward, I'd be inclined to start with hind suspensories. One of mine had these symptoms and was diagnosed with PSD. It was very subtle with mine and most of the time I just described him as 'not quite right'. Vets call it a 'lack of performance' as opposed to a lameness.
		
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I also thought this.. and I had a lesson with a one off instructor (top chap) on my other horse who looked at my cob and said bet its his suspensory as he has the right confirmation for suspensory issues. Vet told me I was being silly. Thank you i'll look into it.


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## SEL (3 October 2018)

He's not tied up has he? Autumn grass flush seems to have caught a few out. Blood test would show if muscle enzymes are normal.


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## Hormonal Filly (3 October 2018)

SEL said:



			He's not tied up has he? Autumn grass flush seems to have caught a few out. Blood test would show if muscle enzymes are normal.
		
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Don't think so.. we did move yards 3 months ago but he doesn't show any symptoms, not tense etc. He was sweaty last week when worked but he was fluffy so clipped him out and not sweated since. 

*To add, I tried a very strong 2 day bute trial and it didn't make much of a difference but he did feel happier to work. *


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## cobgoblin (3 October 2018)

Early ringbone, sidebone?


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## milliepops (3 October 2018)

cobgoblin said:



			Early ringbone, sidebone?
		
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esp with the positive flexion at the fetlock. Also a possibility. I tend to go straight to a vet if a horse isn't right, physios/chiros etc can be very skilled but shouldn't treat a lame horse and aren't really supposed to diagnose conditions... Often people think it's the cheaper option but you can end up just throwing more money at it than you needed to. Not saying that's def the case with you OP but just something to beware of.


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## Hormonal Filly (3 October 2018)

He was only 1/10th lame approx 5/6 weeks ago for a couple of strides, but when the vet visited 2 weeks ago and flexed that fetlock twice both after lunging and and after lunging on a surface he was completely sound..

Thanks Milliepops, will give my vet a call but they always want to come look again, another Â£100 then sent him to the clinic and they said you need to be happy to spend a good Â£500 plus.


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## ester (3 October 2018)

Just a thought, that it might give you somewhere to target (on the basis that vets and low grade lameness can be tricky) both langford and B+W have an equinosis lameness locator gadget.


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## Roxylola (3 October 2018)

Don't know if they are actually any good but maybe those thermal imaging things could help.
However, my only experience of hind suspensory issues presented with not wanting to go forward and coming way above the bit if I insisted. I'd maybe treat it as if it's that until something more obvious presents itself


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## Hormonal Filly (3 October 2018)

ester said:



			Just a thought, that it might give you somewhere to target (on the basis that vets and low grade lameness can be tricky) both langford and B+W have an equinosis lameness locator gadget.
		
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I did ask, to use the machine you're looking at Â£200 call out, Â£350 to use the machine (possibly Â£300 can't remember exactly) and all it does is say which leg it could be. I'm certain its his hind left if any.

Thanks Roxylola - how can I treat it as if its that? Lunge him long and low? I started using a band on his back end and 2 reins so he pushed from behind but in canter again he struggled.


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## ester (3 October 2018)

Yes I've seen it in action a few times and it would seem better than heading off on a wild goose chase not really knowing if there is or isn't a lameness issue to me. If you are certain it is left hind I'd be tempted to block it (to cover the suspensories at least) and see whether it seems mild because it's actually bilateral.


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## milliepops (3 October 2018)

ester said:



			Yes I've seen it in action a few times and it would seem better than heading off on a wild goose chase not really knowing if there is or isn't a lameness issue to me. If you are certain it is left hind I'd be tempted to block it (to cover the suspensories at least) and see whether it seems mild because it's actually bilateral.
		
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good call. Any chance you can go to them OP to save having loads of call outs? I've just taken mine into the clinic to do a workup, we don't have good enough facilities at home.


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## ester (3 October 2018)

true, I've always taken frank if needing to do more than a quick trot up as seemed more efficient that way. 

Re. suspensories, surgery is probably the most common these days though I imagine they might have more options if money is tighter just less proven. They do usually generate compensatory issues elsewhere too (SI joint particularly seems to come up).


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## AandK (3 October 2018)

milliepops said:



			esp with the positive flexion at the fetlock. Also a possibility. I tend to go straight to a vet if a horse isn't right, physios/chiros etc can be very skilled but shouldn't treat a lame horse and aren't really supposed to diagnose conditions... Often people think it's the cheaper option but you can end up just throwing more money at it than you needed to. Not saying that's def the case with you OP but just something to beware of.
		
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I only suggested physio as OP advised her vet had seen the horse since the friend did the flexions and said it was sound.


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## Roxylola (3 October 2018)

Suspensory is box rest with regular cold hosing until any lameness heat etc is gone, then start with walking on a firm surface - no soft ground at all. I did weeks in walk, then bits of trot etc. We were canteringon good going before I even walked in an arena.
Once I had to start using the arena I kept him long and low, mainly in walk and just backed off at any sign of discomfort


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## tallyho! (3 October 2018)

Oh dear I hate to be the first one to suggest PSSM but here goes... if youâ€™ve tried everything else, look into this.


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## Hormonal Filly (4 October 2018)

Roxylola said:



			Suspensory is box rest with regular cold hosing until any lameness heat etc is gone, then start with walking on a firm surface - no soft ground at all. I did weeks in walk, then bits of trot etc. We were canteringon good going before I even walked in an arena.
Once I had to start using the arena I kept him long and low, mainly in walk and just backed off at any sign of discomfort
		
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Thanks Roxylola, problem is he doesn't do well stabled even for a 12 hour period. Stable looks like its had a washing machine effect going on and he gets very stressed, box walking etc so was worried if I box rested him it could make it worse. Thank you all i'll look into it


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## ester (4 October 2018)

was that a hind suspensory roxylola?


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## Tonks (4 October 2018)

Sunflowers said:



			I would try to find a trainer/rider you really respect, to ride him a few times and objectively assess him for you. Perhaps even put him into a trainer's yard for a couple of weeks? It might cost you Â£250 a week or so, but in comparison to veterinary work ups, it's probably money well spent!

It's so hard when you have only one horse to stand back and be objective. Virtually impossible in fact.

As well as giving you a training assessment, they should be able to give you a thorough opinion of his soundness and general demeanour, his bitting, saddle fit - the works.

Really good luck 

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I think this is an objective way of assessing him. Even if you donâ€™t send him away, getting someone very experienced to ride him to give their opinion, has got to be a good thing.

If Iâ€™m concerned I always get my trainer to pop on - after all thatâ€™s their job.

Of course continue with investigations but do this alongside a professional trainers opinion. You never know whether some issues are â€˜learnt behavioursâ€™ between the pair of you. At least with a different rider, you may be able to rule that out. 

ðŸ˜‰ good luck


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## Hormonal Filly (4 October 2018)

Tonks said:



			I think this is an objective way of assessing him. Even if you donâ€™t send him away, getting someone very experienced to ride him to give their opinion, has got to be a good thing.

If Iâ€™m concerned I always get my trainer to pop on - after all thatâ€™s their job.

Of course continue with investigations but do this alongside a professional trainers opinion. You never know whether some issues are â€˜learnt behavioursâ€™ between the pair of you. At least with a different rider, you may be able to rule that out.

ðŸ˜‰ good luck
		
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Thank you. We do have a lesson with a great dressage rider Saturday.. I booked it months ago. She is very experienced and I did debate taking my other horse but considering taking my cob just to see what she says. If she says lame, i'll get off and end it there, but it could be like you said, hes learnt his behaviour and something that only work will help with which part of me does think it could be. Its only 10 minutes in the trailer to the lesson so could be worth taking him. 

Last night friends looked at him without his rug and said he looks physically well, nice neck and topline isn't bad considering he had some time off.

I've just received a email from the vets who x-rayed him previously and they are trying their best to find the x-ray copies over. One set of x-rays was taken mid 2016 of hind legs and another lot only 12 months ago (mid 2017) of his back and hind legs down to above fetlocks (all was clear) which would be nice to receive and keep for my records if required.
He does have a permanent 2" boney lump just above his hock on his hind left leg, it doesn't even show on x-rays as anything so vet said its just a boney lump thats formed from a old injury. He was used as a stallion and then gelded at 5, had a tough life to start with and came from where most coloured cobs come from (i'm sure you can guess) but he is a special boy, more light weight and heavily marked. Most loving affectionate horse I've ever owned. 

Thanks all,


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## nikkimariet (4 October 2018)

Could be anything from ulcers to SI or hock issue?

I've just spent thousands doing a full work up outside of insurance. It was worth it for my own sanity but yes the cost did make the eyes water.


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## Hormonal Filly (4 October 2018)

nikkimariet said:



			Could be anything from ulcers to SI or hock issue?

I've just spent thousands doing a full work up outside of insurance. It was worth it for my own sanity but yes the cost did make the eyes water.
		
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Could be.. doubt ulcers as had a mare with ulcers and he shows not really many symptoms. I now have received his hock and back x-rays from 2016 to 2017, is there any vet or experienced members on here who would mind taking a look that would know anything about them?


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## Roxylola (4 October 2018)

ester said:



			was that a hind suspensory roxylola?
		
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Yes hind suspensory


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## Bexx (5 October 2018)

Thinking on a different line here, a few weeks ago my horse presented similar. He is normally a very forward type who loves his work. He started to refuse to be caught from the field then when I was riding he was punching up, following especially in canter and backing off my leg. Turns out our saddle was the issue. I'm now not using that saddle and after a few weeks rest and some sessions riding bareback he is back to his normal self. Saddle fitter can't come out until mid October so we are bareback or jumping saddle until then


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## BBP (5 October 2018)

Just as a note, not all horses with ulcers present the same. Mine has zero reaction to girth area, fat, shiny, ad-lib forage, fine to groom, stressed and a bit sad looking but never grumpy with me. He would occasionally grind his teeth or yawn, and would refuse to canter, either grinding to a halt or cantering but in a very backwards way. His trot became shorter striding. 

He scoped as having small ulcers near the pylorus. After treatment, plus a supplement for buffering hind gut acidity, everything improved so so much.

Not saying your horse has them, but some horses hide it well.


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## Hormonal Filly (11 October 2018)

Thanks all. Bexx thank you, I really don't think its his saddle it was made to fit him and was checked only a few months ago and he hasn't lost or gained any weight but worth another visit, thank you. Will investigate that BBP and see what the vet says.

UPDATE.
I had a shared pole work lesson on the weekend with a very good dressage rider/instructor who really knows her stuff. He was shaking as he came out the box, can only assume excitement? and as we went into the arena he was trotting on the spot, ears pricked forwards. I explained everything to the instructor and she kept a close eye on him. She immediately said hes definitely not lame, he looks elastic from behind and moves nicely. He started to get hard in the mouth and strong as we progressed, she put me on a circle and gave me some tips, to release with my hands and to push him out with my inside leg which worked nicely. He went absolutely lovely, floated over poles in a elastic outline and I was really pleased with him. We didn't work on much canter and he did struggle to hold a right lead canter at first but after a bit of leg work, ended up cantering lovely over all the poles.
She actually said (to my surprise) she could imagine him doing novice dressage with his paces specially his trot. She said he'd got me into bad habits and himself into had habits, but by the end of the lesson we were completely different. I went away feeling great and thinking he was back to his normal self. 

I hacked him out quietly the day after (no problem) and yesterday took him in the arena at home for some schooling work.

Mind it was dark but at the previous yard he was always ridden in the floodlights in the dark. He was completely different, hard in the mouth, not off the leg whatsoever, looking all around him. Right canter was impossible, he would harden his mouth and constantly try and break into trot as well as grunting. I put him on a circle (the same as the lesson) and rode him how she instructed (tried to imagine she was on the floor, talking to myself like a prat) but it made no difference. Even his walk and trot wasn't great. Constantly fighting the contact and I tried riding him on a loose rein so he pushed from behind. I tried a few different ways but didn't get anywhere and after 30 minutes he was sweating really badly (clipped out) I cooled him off.

This new yard arena is the same size as previous but the surface is pretty deep mind lighting much brighter, previous yard the surface was very shallow (to shallow like cantering on hard ground) and lights crap, my lesson its a nice 'perfect' surface just how it should be at a competition yard. A friend on the yard said possibly the surface? However my Welshy goes absolutely beautifully at the new yard arena (better than ever) and all the other horses have no problem apart from a late 20's gelding who struggles with the surface so is just hacked now.

A friend (lives several hours away) said maybe I'm a s**t rider out of a lesson.. lol, possibly.. but I've had this horse years, know him inside out, he use to go lovely at home before I even had a 'proper'  dressage lesson a few years back. mmmm?

Could it be hes suddenly started napping for the first time ever? Never napped in 4 years, use to hack out for hours and not even hesitate leaving the yard or splitting from a group but wonder if being on his own in the arena was why as the lesson was with another (but didn't nap at any point in the lesson)

Could it be he was excited so the adrenaline took over the pain? However instructor said he wasn't that excited and don't think he had any adrenaline to cover the pain after the first 5 minutes. 

I have been recommended a great physio.. may book that up and see what she says. Even more stuck now. 

Argghh.


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## ester (11 October 2018)

I'd have a question mark over your yard surface if it is deep.


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## Hormonal Filly (11 October 2018)

ester said:



			I'd have a question mark over your yard surface if it is deep.
		
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Would it be possible for him to struggle that much on the surface? Thing is when last ridden in the open fields he was the same.


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## ester (11 October 2018)

I've known them show up an otherwise intermittent lameness a little bit more. Not massively but noticeable in hindsight. 

Fwiw too Mum's mare was very sound on her front suspensory, still going to lessons etc, the only time she showed lame was the day after a school day when she would max out at about 2/10 lame (which didn't happen very often as we don't have one ourselves)


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## Scarlett (11 October 2018)

The fact it's right canter you seem to have the issue with would definitely suggest a gut problem to me.

My horse has had various issues over the years. Right canter became an issue during hind gut flare up and again during ulcers. If his gut is upset at all he becomes rigid through his rib cage and hard in the contact, true bend right is hard to get and he just goes hollow.

It's certainly where I would start in your situation. maybe a good quality gut supplement?

Other option could be a muscle issue (we've had that too....  ) Sorry if I have missed this but have you changed grazing recently?

ETA - just saw that you moved yards 3 months ago which will make this his first autumn on this grazing I assume? I'd start there. From personal experience with several horses grazing can cause all sorts of issues, could be causing him to tie up slightly which would absolutely explain the rigid feeling in canter and the sweating after 30 min.

Maybe start with reducing grazing access and adding vitamin e  and salt to see if that helps? Maybe ask vet about PSSM?

Also look up Calm Healthy Horses website - I spent thousands looking for issues in my horses, all the work ups and investigations, turns out it was the grazing they were on and after 4-5 years of chasing issues we are finally on top of it with them all.


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## Hormonal Filly (11 October 2018)

Scarlett said:



			The fact it's right canter you seem to have the issue with would definitely suggest a gut problem to me.

My horse has had various issues over the years. Right canter became an issue during hind gut flare up and again during ulcers. If his gut is upset at all he becomes rigid through his rib cage and hard in the contact, true bend right is hard to get and he just goes hollow.

It's certainly where I would start in your situation. maybe a good quality gut supplement?

Other option could be a muscle issue (we've had that too....  ) Sorry if I have missed this but have you changed grazing recently?
		
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Mmm could try that thank you Scarlett. I changed grazing 4 months ago and moved them home, theres a livery yard on the farm we live on. They were previously on less grazing in a herd and now in the same size field with just my 2 geldings together. Feed, everything has stayed the same, they come in at dinner time and stay in until 6pm when I ride. If it was a gut issue wouldn't he be worse after travelling? He never eats when travelling so I'd assume if it was his gut he'd be worse as he gets really tense when travelling.


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## Scarlett (11 October 2018)

Aimeetess said:



			Mmm could try that thank you Scarlett. I changed grazing 4 months ago and moved them home, theres a livery yard on the farm we live on. They were previously on less grazing in a herd and now in the same size field with just my 2 geldings together. Feed, everything has stayed the same, they come in at dinner time and stay in until 6pm when I ride. If it was a gut issue wouldn't he be worse after travelling? He never eats when travelling so I'd assume if it was his gut he'd be worse as he gets really tense when travelling.
		
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There's no hard and fast answers with gut issues, what causes problems with one horse wont with another. My horse was fat and shiny and being investigated for something else when they found glandular ulcers, yet when he had every ulcer symptom in the book he scoped clear and the found inflammation of the hind gut. It may not even be ulcers but just a sensitive belly due to the grazing.

I edited my post above to add that if this is his first autumn on that grazing then I would start there and maybe look at whether he has tied up/has pssm/mineral imbalance due to potassium levels. Tying up would explain his issues, and the change in grazing would explain the tying up.

Vit E, magnesium and salt would be a start, plus getting him off the grass if you can. Cheap and easy place to start and if it is that you'll see an improvement quickly.


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## Hormonal Filly (11 October 2018)

Thank you Scarlett.

He is on equlibria balancer and always has been getting the right recommended amounts, he also gets salt everyday and always has done in summer or after hes sweated alot. There currently is barely any grass out there so hes been having hay and more hard food the last few weeks. He isn't great being stabled, so comes in for a few hours after afternoon and hes in at night in winter. He is grazing fields now that sheep grazed previously, and hes never grazed fields sheep have been in before. Could it be related to that?

It does make sense almost, when hes in the arena he feels tense all over and sweats a lot which is unusual for him. Hes always been a very tense stressy horse from day one. He isn't a 'great doer' for a cob either so has always had to have hard feet in winter as well as haylage. 

What do you recommend supplement wise giving him?


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## lottiepony (11 October 2018)

A recent experience of mine was with a friends horse.
He had what can only be described as a personality transplant, went from chilled boy ideal for novice rider to something that rushed, anxious and unpredictable.
Owners did all the checks, usual vet, physio, saddler, scoped for ulcers etc etc all found nothing. Long story short came to mine to be sold as was now unsuitable for his owner (novice lady) I still had that niggle something was wrong so put him on a bute trial (naughty I know). Literally 1 day on it and original horse returned.
We got him referred to the Animal Health Trust and turns out both hind suspensories gone and sacroiliac joint pain. He's been operated on and treated and rode him for the first time last weekend, so far so good and fingers crossed as his ridden demands will be so low (light hacking) we're hopeful he will be able to cope.
I feel bad I couldn't feel it but I listened to what he was saying by his behaviour so thankfully we got there in the end. 
What I've taken from it though is if you do think there is a problem go straight to the pros - vet referral places (we're very lucky as close to Newmarket so have the A.H.T and Rossdales) His owners spent lots of extra money on the local vet etc etc and probably wasted a month 'messing' around. He wasn't insured either so they taken quite the hit but their priority was for him to pain free. Sometimes it's best to go straight in at the expensive end then hopefully your money is spent well.
Of course I know everyone offers their experiences and there's probably people out there who have gone that route and it hasn't worked out but good to get a well rounded view 

I hope you can get to the bottom of it as there is nothing worse then knowing something is up with them but not knowing what!


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## Scarlett (11 October 2018)

Aimeetess -  There's a rather long, boring complicated story about how my horses, who sound very similar to what you are seeing with yours, weren't actually lame after all and after putting ourselves in large amounts of debt and spending all our money, it was connected to the grazing. I even had joint injections, vet stays, scopes, bute trials, feet looked at, saddles looked at.... One horse was on the verge of PTS because he was so miserable and had slowly become unworkable and no reason why.

I'm currently following the advice of the Calm Healthy Horses page and they are all much better, sound infact. 

I'd definitely look at magnesium, salt and vitamin E and read up on magnesium/calcium deficiency and excess potassium. 

Maybe speak to your vet about doing PSSM blood test? Mine came back negative but was still tying up which helped us look else where.


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## Hormonal Filly (11 October 2018)

lottiepony said:



			A recent experience of mine was with a friends horse.

I hope you can get to the bottom of it as there is nothing worse then knowing something is up with them but not knowing what!
		
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Thank you for sharing that Lottiepony and this is my fear. He doesn't feel 'lame' but he does feel like hes bunny hoping, even though every vet and friend, and experienced instructor has said hes sound. Funnily enough he isn't unpredictable hes a very well behaved chap but I have noticed hes suddenly much more spooky now. For instance, the fields we ride in on the land run next to a main road. Hes NEVER shown any interest in traffic(ridden him previously over motorway bridge) and didn't use to even look, but suddenly he goes up those fields sideways spooking?!

I did put him on a 2 day very strong bute trial and rode him when the vet said he'd be most 'buted' up.  There was only a small improvement I noticed that was he was happier to canter and cantered on voice (how he use to be) but I thought it may of been because I put the bit on a higher hole however since riding him again off bute and bit in same place, I do now think it was the bute that made him feel better? But that would make him feel better if it was PSSM or suspesories etc? He isn't keen on having his fetlocks felt specially around the area the suspensory ligament lies.
He is definitely the type of horse to keep going for me even if in severe pain, just know him to a T.

My vet has their own hospital with top class vets and is a referral unit, so I am torn wether to pay Â£60 for a physio to have a look or get the vet back out and ask about nerve blocking. Its hard though as he is 100% sound to trot up and it is only noticeable when I ride. I can't even notice it on the lunge really so would be hard to see if it made a difference.

Thank you Scarlet, i'll definitely ask my vet about that.


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## Hormonal Filly (11 October 2018)

I have just red on PSSM it says, quoting "During an episode, horses seem lazy, have a shifting lameness, tense up their abdomen, and develop tremors in their flank area."

Every time he is boxed he shakes over his back end and flank area when I first get on, but has always done this and never done it at home. He is lazy at home and does feel tense to ride. I'll give my vet a call and question it.


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## lottiepony (11 October 2018)

Aimeetess said:



			Thank you for sharing that Lottiepony and this is my fear. He doesn't feel 'lame' but he does feel like hes bunny hoping, even though every vet and friend, and experienced instructor has said hes sound. Funnily enough he isn't unpredictable hes a very well behaved chap but I have noticed hes suddenly much more spooky now. For instance, the fields we ride in on the land run next to a main road. Hes NEVER shown any interest in traffic(ridden him previously over motorway bridge) and didn't use to even look, but suddenly he goes up those fields sideways spooking?!

I did put him on a 2 day very strong bute trial and rode him when the vet said he'd be most 'buted' up.  There was only a small improvement I noticed that was he was happier to canter and cantered on voice (how he use to be) but I thought it may of been because I put the bit on a higher hole however since riding him again off bute and bit in same place, I do now think it was the bute that made him feel better? But that would make him feel better if it was PSSM or suspesories etc? He isn't keen on having his fetlocks felt specially around the area the suspensory ligament lies.
He is definitely the type of horse to keep going for me even if in severe pain, just know him to a T.

My vet has their own hospital with top class vets and is a referral unit, so I am torn wether to pay Â£60 for a physio to have a look or get the vet back out and ask about nerve blocking. Its hard though as he is 100% sound to trot up and it is only noticeable when I ride. I can't even notice it on the lunge really so would be hard to see if it made a difference.

Thank you Scarlet, i'll definitely ask my vet about that.
		
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It is so hard to know what to do! If you say he was better (even if it was small) on bute it does point to a pain related thing - now the million dollar question of where it might be coming from! The horse I dealt with actually had a stay at the AHT for 3 days so they could do the full work up. He had a full in hand assessment then I had to ride him, then their rider took him through his paces. During his stay they did the necessary blocks/scans etc to pin point the problem. The riding was the key part to him as on the ground he never looked lame. Although extra expense for the livery we had an answer 3 days later and then I think he stayed and had the surgery straight away so just seemed so quick. 

I hope you get to the bottom of it and get a positive outcome.


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## ester (11 October 2018)

It would be relatively easy to check for a muscle myopathy with pre/post exercise bloods, or you could do the DNA tests on a hair sample (but not all posibilities/types covered by that).


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## ihatework (11 October 2018)

I think the reactions to your deep surface at home is possibly significant.

What it is highlighting I couldnâ€™t say, but if he isnâ€™t a historically lazy horse then Iâ€™d guess more than it just being extra effort for him. My money would be on a very low grade bilateral lameness in the hind end.

If I were going to spend money at the Vets I would probably scan the hind suspensories first.


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## nikkimariet (11 October 2018)

Aimeetess said:



			Could be.. doubt ulcers as had a mare with ulcers and he shows not really many symptoms. I now have received his hock and back x-rays from 2016 to 2017, is there any vet or experienced members on here who would mind taking a look that would know anything about them?
		
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Ulcers can show in many forms. We effectively lost one to them (ulcerative colitis) and he was in great condition never girthy or grumpy never sore in his back always ate well etc.


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## SEL (11 October 2018)

My mare struggled on a deep surface over the summer. Fine when I took her to the competition arena next door. She does have PSSM and arthritic hocks so I assumed it was putting extra pressure on her compromised muscles. BUT she's recently been scanned with a suspensory injury on her left hind - no idea if the deep school caused it or niggled a problem I was unaware of - but I feel awful that I didn't push harder with the vets to scan earlier.

You could have a horse with a myopathy. There's a lot in your posts above that i recognise and if you get the vet out next time you're having issues then blood testing for muscle enzymes isn't expensive.


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## maya2008 (12 October 2018)

Whatever you do, if there is a problem and it doesn't improve with work, don't carry on riding! 

You will make the problem worse, it will cost more to fix and may cause so many compensatory issues that the horse can't be fixed. 

If no money for any investigations or anything else, turn away for six months to a year (it took two years for my mare to come sound, and she did have all the investigations and treatment!) and see what happens. 

If some money, find out what is wrong (tell them you have no insurance before you start, and get them to check the X-rays from last year) and then make some choices.


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## Hormonal Filly (12 October 2018)

maya2008 said:



			Whatever you do, if there is a problem and it doesn't improve with work, don't carry on riding!

You will make the problem worse, it will cost more to fix and may cause so many compensatory issues that the horse can't be fixed.

If no money for any investigations or anything else, turn away for six months to a year (it took two years for my mare to come sound, and she did have all the investigations and treatment!) and see what happens.

If some money, find out what is wrong (tell them you have no insurance before you start, and get them to check the X-rays from last year) and then make some choices.
		
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Thanks for your comment, You're right. I am not sure if its a problem physically or mentally, it would be easier if he was 100% lame rather than trotting up completely sound and even on both hinds. He was so good in my lesson Saturday the girls in my lesson and experienced dressage instructor said if he was in pain he couldn't and wouldn't move like that which made me think it was more him mentally and my riding than something physically wrong with him as he really did feel nice and then I was back to square one after riding him at home.
When he was turned away previously it made things worse as he wasn't in any work he was hammering around the field and causing more damage than good slipping around etc so currently have been lightly hacking a couple of times a week to just keep him ticking over. This morning he was cantering around the field  looking beautiful but that is different as there is no weight on his back.

I have booked a incredibility good physio for 3 weeks time who really knows her stuff and thought I could save some money and get her to look at both of mine as it works out cheaper and wait until then but that is 3 weeks away and a long time to wait. I think i'll contact my vet now and see if they'd look at him on a zone day for a second opinion and get them to check x-rays as I have copies of back and complete hind legs (and turns out fetlocks too) which are clear but would be worth a re look.


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## View (12 October 2018)

Aimeetess said:



			He was so good in my lesson Saturday the girls in my lesson and experienced dressage instructor said if he was in pain he couldn't and wouldn't move like that which made me think it was more him mentally and my riding than something physically wrong with him .
		
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Just be aware that a horse with a physical problem may appear pain free because of flowing adrenaline.


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## ester (12 October 2018)

The more you say the more I think it doesn't cost much to get suspensories scanned. I've known one going round BE novice tracks with good dressage scores who had issues with both. (and a more general comment one who did his 2nd BE novice going really well and 2 days later was walking crippled- turned out he had extensive kissing spine issues. Those and our own suspensory issue definitely means I now pay more attention to the small indicators, like what happens on different surfaces etc. 

I don't really understand the benefit of vets looking at old xrays?


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## Hormonal Filly (12 October 2018)

Completely View, this is what I thought as he was shaking when I tacked him up which hes always done. At the start he was excited and had adrenaline running but after 10 minutes he was very chilled out so instructor didn't think he was running off adrenaline? I suppose though he could of still had adrenaline in his system.. 

Well, the old x-rays show clear so I wouldn't see the point of re x-raying really, hes had 3 lots of x-rays done the last lot only 12 months ago of back/legs and in 2016 twice and all show clear unless suddenly he has arthritis changes but feels more tendon, suspensory area.

I spoke to my vet today and have booked their specialist to come and have a look, hes slightly expensive but they said hes great with problems like this. Hes coming out in a week so not sure if to carry on light hacking or stop riding him altogether..


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## ester (12 October 2018)

So what do you expect from re evaluating old xrays if you know they were clear?

Hopefully the vet will have some ideas, I'd be inclined to keep working as normal TBH or you risk his presentation not being representative as you don't have a 'go to' area to look at particularly we all just have our suspicions.


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## Hormonal Filly (12 October 2018)

I thought someone may of picked up on something that wasnâ€™t picked up back then.. 
My vet had a look, different vet than who took them and said theyâ€™re nice clean x-rays. 

Good idea, will light hack and then maybe take in the arena the day before or that morning.

Will report back


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## ester (12 October 2018)

certainly be interested to know  good luck


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## Hormonal Filly (23 October 2018)

Vet came Monday. Excellent vet, really thorough and well worth the extra money.
Trot up, 100% sound, flexion tests, 100% sound however he disliked his left hind being lifted right up so uncomfortable there. Lunged, still sound then asked me to ride which he said he barely ever asks clients to ride but he couldn't see a single problem. I rode him in trot, sound, canter left, looked sound and canter right the vet immediately saw he looked off on his left hind and couldn't push off properly.

He felt around and said his backs fine, no swelling or uncomfortable down the leg but both his stifles do feel boney but on both sides.. and he hates that left hind behind lifted up, but the other leg he doesn't care. 
Then lunged on concrete, sound.

The vet said hes a very honest chap and seems something is a issue but its not staring us in the face. 
He thinks he either had a tough life as a youngster with the pikeys (how he explained it!) and they hammered him up roads, covered tons of mares (was a stallion until 5, then i bought him after gelded) and possibly has arthritis coming in his stifle or hock even though x-rays show clear from 2017 and 2016 it could be very slight or not visable.

OR

Hes done/torn his suspensory but doesn't show any pain in the areas they usually would which is unusual. 

He said we could x-ray, scan him but it will probably show nothing. He said they scan some suspensories and they look chronic, but the horse is sound with no issues and x-rays may not help. He recommended to inject his hock for now, which i agreed and he had done, to be able to cross that off and see if he improves. He did say its very common for cobs with his past to get hock problems and the most common issue in horses is the hocks (and with his confirmation) and see how he goes in 10 days and then give him a call. 

After talking to him I have a gut feeling its his suspensory.. as it feels worse, not better after being ridden, arthritis i'd expect to feel better after exercise but this doesn't and it almost feels like theres no 'push' like I can imagine a suspensory would feel. 
2 days box rest then work him for 7 days and see how he goes. If he feels amazing then he'll decide what to do next but if no better he'll nerve block that suspensory while I ride.


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## LegOn (23 October 2018)

I think you have nothing to lose now with a physio - he could have a twist in his pelvis or trapped nerve or knot somewhere that is flaring up with the deep ground & finding it hard to work level, but on a better more level surface it could be easier for him. 

I would definitely recommend it - my friends horse has massive gut issues & was being treated with supplements & medication & he just wasnt coming right - the physio was able to release the tension he had around his whole body he was holding from the pain in his gut & there was a massive improvement!


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## Hormonal Filly (23 October 2018)

LegOn said:



			I think you have nothing to lose now with a physio - he could have a twist in his pelvis or trapped nerve or knot somewhere that is flaring up with the deep ground & finding it hard to work level, but on a better more level surface it could be easier for him.

I would definitely recommend it - my friends horse has massive gut issues & was being treated with supplements & medication & he just wasnt coming right - the physio was able to release the tension he had around his whole body he was holding from the pain in his gut & there was a massive improvement!
		
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Hes the same in a field, arena, cut field, hard ground, soft ground when cantering it makes no difference.
I may try the physio, she is booked to see my other in 3 weeks so will see if she can add him on.


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## Hormonal Filly (9 November 2018)

UPDATE

Vet injected his left hock/lower suspensory coming up to 3 weeks ago. 
After riding him over the last couple of weeks, I am certain there is no change.
He is still not himself, not very forward off the leg and a outline seems harder than ever.  When taken for a canter in the open field he tries to nap (very unlike him) and afterwards when walking around the field he trips a lot on his hind legs. Its a very weird feeling and not a comfortable feeling.

I spoke to the vet, we agreed on another strong bute trial and to see a physio. Vet thinks 4 bute a day for a horse his side should make a huge difference and he should feel great. I only done 4 bute a day trial for 3 days as I had the physio (vet recommended) coming out and he had to be off all bute a while before that. 

I rode him while on the bute trial and he didn't feel any different even on the bute so was very surprised. I expected a big change but if i'm honest he felt exact the same. A experienced friend rode him (who also rode him before hock injection) while he was on the bute and after a few minutes of really riding him, she did manage to get him working in a nice outline (he looked like he use to 6 months ago!) but he was dripping in sweat and panting heavily for only 5 minutes so called it a day.  She said it was extremely difficult to ride him to it and judging by how he was (sweating, panting) he clearly found it very difficult and was hard work to do it. Bless him.

The physio saw him yesterday. Watched him walk and trot and said he does look funny behind but not lame but she thought his right leg hock looked stiff and stifle action was slightly odd on that hind (medicated one) but not slipping or sticking. Mind hes always walked and trotted a bit funny on his back end as of his confirmation we put it down to, so could be this. 
When stepping in on a right circle hes very reluctant but right hind much worse than left.

She was certain he'd feel tight throughout.. but was amazed how 'nice' he felt considering I said he wasn't right. She said he was surprisingly balanced, his muscle tone (and she said he had a nice muscle tone) was completely even on both sides of his bum and she only found one sore area (she described as a 1/10 so only a small niggle) on HIS right SI area on his entire body. He stands square and never leg rests and didn't react once to show anything 'hurt' when she'd expected him to. She noticed he leans forward onto his front end and was resting most of his weight onto his right fore (right pec bulging) which was strange as his right fore lacks muscle compared to his left fore. 

He has a old kick wound on the side of his neck with some muscle damage but he can extend, move his neck l/r etc no problems but she did say you could investigate if no lameness behind is found. His back legs he can also extend right out behind him evenly both sides.

She was basically miffed by him. I'm going to call the vet tonight and explain. She did say maybe hes always had arthritis in his stifle area thats got worse, thats mean't hes over compensated on his SI joint causing that to be sore but would expect him to be much more sore. I'm going to ask the vet to re-look at all of his previous x-rays.

Vet is booked for next week to visit and do nerve blocks but each nerve block is Â£80 and he'll possibly need to do quite a few. Already with a fairly bill i'm not sure what to do if i'm honest. I don't know how much more money I want to throw at this without possibly ever finding anything..


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## ester (9 November 2018)

thanks for the update, was there any thoughts on PSSM given that nothing else seems to be coming up?


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## JillA (9 November 2018)

Before you even mentioned the surface you were riding him on my first thought was feet and subclinical laminitis - it can present as just slightly "off". The grass has been pretty sugary of late and if he is a cob type........................I would manage his diet carefully so as to minimise any grass and sugars, and put him on bute for a week or so, and if you can, keep him on conforming bedding for that time. Then reassess


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## Hormonal Filly (9 November 2018)

ester said:



			thanks for the update, was there any thoughts on PSSM given that nothing else seems to be coming up?
		
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My vet is very knowledgeable with PSSM apparently being the first port of call with horses in the South West with it. I will mention it again this evening though thank you!


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## Hormonal Filly (9 November 2018)

JillA said:



			Before you even mentioned the surface you were riding him on my first thought was feet and subclinical laminitis - it can present as just slightly "off". The grass has been pretty sugary of late and if he is a cob type........................I would manage his diet carefully so as to minimise any grass and sugars, and put him on bute for a week or so, and if you can, keep him on conforming bedding for that time. Then reassess
		
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Thank you for your comment JillA. I say cob, however hes a much finer type, perfect weight, shape, no crest the vet and physio said overall he was in good condition. Although  I did mention to the vet that he doesn't want to walk on hard surfaces when walking to the field and pulls to walk on the grass but he has always done this as a youngster so unless I am noticing it more now as thinking about it. 

Hes been on vertically no grass all summer, so would be strange for it to throw up laminitis now when on no grass and 2 years ago he use to be on grass up to his knees in 20 ac fields with 20 other horses.  He is now on one haylage net a night due to having 0 grass in the field and this started 3 weeks ago, not noticed any change and purely as he started to drop weight as he always does (he isn't a great doer for a cob) although at my first yard he use to be kept in 24/7 2 years ago on haylage adlib. I would've thought having had him over 4 years and the fact he use to be on tons of grass and it was never a issue it would be odd to show up now? Hes never been 'fat' or had a crest but I do know they can have *Laminitis* with non of that present so i'll mention it to the vet 100%. Hes fed a molasses free alfalfa (has been on it for years) and a *equilibria* balancer which hes had for nearly a year now as well as linseed powder which just covers the bottom of a feed bucket. 

Thank you.


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## Alibear (9 November 2018)

Perhaps have a cushings test done? That can cause laminitis despite the horse being a good weight, and dragging up old memories can cause some muscle problems to not a million miles away from PSSM ?  Just a random thought. Good Luck.


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## JillA (9 November 2018)

Aimeetess said:



			Thank you for your comment JillA. I say cob, however hes a much finer type, perfect weight, shape, no crest the vet and physio said overall he was in good condition. Although  I did mention to the vet that he doesn't want to walk on hard surfaces when walking to the field and pulls to walk on the grass but he has always done this as a youngster so unless I am noticing it more now as thinking about it.

Hes been on vertically no grass all summer, so would be strange for it to throw up laminitis now when on no grass and 2 years ago he use to be on grass up to his knees in 20 ac fields with 20 other horses.  He is now on one haylage net a night due to having 0 grass in the field and this started 3 weeks ago, not noticed any change and purely as he started to drop weight as he always does (he isn't a great doer for a cob) although at my first yard he use to be kept in 24/7 2 years ago on haylage adlib. I would've thought having had him over 4 years and the fact he use to be on tons of grass and it was never a issue it would be odd to show up now? Hes never been 'fat' or had a crest but I do know they can have *Laminitis* with non of that present so i'll mention it to the vet 100%. Hes fed a molasses free alfalfa (has been on it for years) and a *equilibria* balancer which hes had for nearly a year now as well as linseed powder which just covers the bottom of a feed bucket.

Thank you.
		
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I'd still ask your vet for a bute trial - if he is still less than happy on bute you have pain/inflammation,, all you have to do is work out where. If there is no change you have a mechanical lameness problem


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## JillA (9 November 2018)

JillA said:



			I'd still ask your vet for a bute trial - if he is still less than happy on bute you have pain/inflammation,, all you have to do is work out where. If there is no change you have a mechanical lameness problem
		
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Sorry, meant to say if he IS happy on bute...............


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## DressageCob (9 November 2018)

Wow, your vet has put him on 4 butes a day?! That's rather a lot. Especially since you say it has made no discernible difference. 

hope you get it all sorted. I don't have any suggestions that haven't already been mentioned. Horse Vet Corner on facebook is a pretty good group to ask on too.


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## SusieT (9 November 2018)

two year old xrays are meaningless - go to an equine performance vet (ask around in  your area).


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## VRIN (10 November 2018)

Can your vet friend look at him again?


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## Hormonal Filly (12 November 2018)

SusieT said:



			two year old xrays are meaningless - go to an equine performance vet (ask around in  your area).
		
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The x-rays are under 12 months old..


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## DressageCob (12 November 2018)

Aimeetess said:



			The x-rays are under 12 months old..
		
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You said in the OP that he had full body X-rays in 2016...that's why people are saying they are two years old


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## Hormonal Filly (13 November 2018)

DressageCob said:



			You said in the OP that he had full body X-rays in 2016...that's why people are saying they are two years old 

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Oops - apologies SusieT! Thanks for that DressageCob! It does say 2016.. a mistake there, well he had X-rays in 2016 and more 12 months ago. The vet whoâ€™s been visiting has looked at all previous xrays and surprised how clear his hocks and stifles look considering how boney they feel.
Vets coming out tomorrow evening to do nerve blocks.

Will report back!


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## Ossy2 (13 November 2018)

Tbh I havenâ€™t read all the replies so apologies if Iâ€™ve missed anything. But if it were me Iâ€™d not mess around with nerve blocks and the like Iâ€™d save my money and just go straight to having the legs scanned.


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## Hormonal Filly (13 November 2018)

Ossy2 said:



			Tbh I havenâ€™t read all the replies so apologies if Iâ€™ve missed anything. But if it were me Iâ€™d not mess around with nerve blocks and the like Iâ€™d save my money and just go straight to having the legs scanned.
		
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I did mention this to the vet.. but he said they see so many scans these days of badly damaged or torn tendons, suspensories etc and the horses show no pain and is sound so he thinks itâ€™s not worth scanning when on a low budget and nerve blocking will tell us exactly where the problem is. Obviously if inured they scan but this isnâ€™t the case. Apparently we may scan the leg and it may not show a problem or it could be something we canâ€™t see or it may show a problem but that may not be the painful area etc. Apparently tons of MRIs are done these days and sometimes they donâ€™t show things youâ€™d expect them to show. 

If the nerve block reveales the painful are Iâ€™ll get it scanned though I think to look how severe it is etc.


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## Hormonal Filly (15 November 2018)

Vet revisited and watched Alfie under saddle in the arena. 100% sound and tracks up perfect. He didn't feel 'too' bad to ride but didn't feel right and just funny to ride, hard to explain but something isn't right. Wouldn't work in a outline and the vet saw this, I explained he use to do a lovely test working into the contact. Vet now thinks he isn't lame enough to make it worth doing nerve blocks so doesn't want to nerve block.

I mentioned hes tripping a lot still and back end legs individually keep almost sliding forwards, vet witnessed this. Vet asked me to trot him on hard ground, completely sound. He then asked me to turn him in tight circles, he is unable to step under himself and was almost standing on his feet etc almost not sure where his back legs are.

Vet thinks this is significant and is now referring to a neck injury as the problem, approx 10 months ago where a mare kicked him in the neck causing a haematoma in his lower neck which disappeared after a few days and didn't think anything of it, although he does have a permanent visible crease in that muscle from the kick. He was seen by a vet shortly after who said don't worry its just muscle wastage from the kick, its nothing.

Vet now suspects that kick injury (apparently right where the lowest vertebra is on his neck) damaged his vertebra in his neck, causing spinal cord to be affected or arthritis has formed quickly affecting spinal cord.

Vet wants to come out Sunday and x-ray his neck to see where we go from there. Bill is already in excess of Â£400 with neck x-rays on top when he visits Sunday, starting at Â£220 for neck x-ray only plus any treatment etc. Vets won't do a pay monthly (they use to) and I don't have a credit card and already in my over draft in personal account. Considering getting a credit card or i'll use my only little savings I have saved if not.

I feel like I owe it to him to find out whats wrong and can't just give up now.


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## Hormonal Filly (15 November 2018)

To add, basically a possibility of wobblers. 

Will report back after Sunday once x-rays have confirmed (if anyones still reading this, or they may do in the future so will keep updating, apologies if driving anyone mad)


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## Pearlsasinger (15 November 2018)

I hope your vet doesn't charge extra for a Sunday visit


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## Roxylola (15 November 2018)

Still following, not much I can add other than I really feel for you.  I'd suggest getting the credit card in case but use your savings first - interest is rubbish anyway now


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## Hormonal Filly (15 November 2018)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I hope your vet doesn't charge extra for a Sunday visit
		
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No, hes visiting Sunday and not charging me for it thankfully. He had to shoot off quickly while examining mine as he got a emergency call about a 'swinger' down the road, which (apparently) means a leg swinging. Its their top emergency so he was the closest vet and scrambled to the scene. He called me after to apologize, and explained the poor horse sustained a tragic kick in the field and its hind leg was hanging off, bone completely snapped so he had to rush off and put that to sleep. So upsetting and tragic for that owner, thoughts with them.

Thanks Roxylola.. I will go with savings before a credit card, don't quite trust myself with a credit card yet.


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## Roxylola (15 November 2018)

Aimeetess said:



			Thanks Roxylola.. I will go with savings before a credit card, don't quite trust myself with a credit card yet!
		
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Put it in a tub of water in the freezer if you get it ahead of time then you can't impulse buy


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## BBP (17 November 2018)

Thanks for all the updates, I find it really helps when looking through threads like this in the future. Keeping my fingers crossed that you can get to the root of the issue and itâ€™s something you can manage. And well done for working so hard to identify the problem on a â€˜not quite rightâ€™ horse, many people donâ€™t and the horse is made to work through it regardless. Your horse would thank you if he could.


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## Hormonal Filly (19 November 2018)

*UPDATE 19/11/18*
Vet visited and x-rayed pretty much Alfies entire body. He didn't need any sedation and stood like a saint for quite a while, with me holding him and the others holding the x-ray machine parts between his legs, back, neck etc. Vet said what a top little pony. It was almost like he knew we were trying to help him.
Results..
The fetlock x-rays showed he has 'mis-shaped' fetlock joints, no arthritis or inflammation just something he would of been born with and explains his 'funny' walking and wearing his hind hoofs inwards because of this confirmation fault.
He has the start of arthritis in his hocks (right is worse) which vet is certain its due to having the mis shaped fetlock joints causing uneven wear on the hocks. Hock x-rays were clear 12 months ago so just shows how quickly it can form. Stifles, back and higher neck all good.

He does however have arthritis in his lower neck, it didn't look great if I'm honest looking at the x-rays, looked to be quite a bit of arthritis on 2 vertebra. The vet explained to me the x-rays thoroughly, as well as pointing out the spinal cord and that it looks to be ever so slightly it is restricting it. Vet doesn't think its from the kick to the mid neck (as the arthritis is much lower down) but that he could of had a fall or injury before I owned him or even been born with slightly off shaped vertebra which means arthritis can form early.

Vet is certain this explains his 'strange' canter gait and not wanting to go forwards, plus the tripping because the spinal cord is ever so slightly restricted as well as unable to turn in tight circles and not able to work in a outline. The bute wouldn't of helped this either so explains why 4 bute a day made pretty much no difference. The vet described its more a 'mechanical' fault.  It explains why he feels worse when asked to work in a outline and why he resists it so much.

He had his right hock injected last month which is the worst side (funnily enough vet had a 'feeling' he had arthritis there) so at least I know thats been done.

He also has slightly abnormal bloods when they tested the muscle enzymes or something, was quite confusing, normal for not in work should be 100 and his was around 500. PSSM are usually in the thousands or even ten thousands so he isn't hugely high but a little elevated. He said that is managed with a high fat diet and lots of turnout.

Vet has given 2 options, both pretty much result in having steriod injections in the neck.

Option 1, turn him away for the winter. Bring him back into work March time, see how he gets on. If no better, consider getting his neck steriod injected then. Vet doesn't think turning away will help significantly but could be worth a try if not wanting to spend Â£300+ on neck injections right now.

Option 2, Inject his neck now, give him some time off until Christmas time then bring him back to work as neck injections work best after 4-6 weeks and see how he gets on.

I think i'll go for option 2. I've spent so much on investigating I rather inject now and see how we get on rather than turn him away and constantly thinking over the next few months 'will he come right? will he be retired at 9? Arthritis won't suddenly get better turned away, if anything worse as we all know.

If I get his neck injected now at least I know I've tried everything.

Feeling down he has arthritis at only 9 when hes only been into his ridden career a few years but pleased we found the problem. I know many owners/riders would of gone with 'push him through it hes being naughty' so pleased I listened to him and went with my gut. I just hope we can make him more comfortable and even if hes a happy hacker i'll be happy.


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## Pearlsasinger (19 November 2018)

Aimeetess said:



			No, hes visiting Sunday and not charging me for it thankfully. He had to shoot off quickly while examining mine as he got a emergency call about a 'swinger' down the road, which (apparently) means a leg swinging. Its their top emergency so he was the closest vet and scrambled to the scene. He called me after to apologize, and explained the poor horse sustained a tragic kick in the field and its hind leg was hanging off, bone completely snapped so he had to rush off and put that to sleep. So upsetting and tragic for that owner, thoughts with them.
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You sound to have a great vet!


ETA, I've just read your update.  I would opt for no.2 too, as you say, arthritis isn't going to get better from resting. And well done for listening to your horse!


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## milliepops (19 November 2018)

everything crossed for the best outcome possible, OP. Well done for pushing for a diagnosis.


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## MissP (19 November 2018)

Try a decent physio or chiro, trainer or other professional who has a very good eye to get a starting point. My chiro and trainer can see gait issues and tightness way better than my vets ever have. That's no slight on the vets - I just think they rely on tests rather than gait issues. At least that might help make a guesstimate of where best to spend your money on a work up


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## milliepops (19 November 2018)

MissP said:



			Try a decent physio or chiro, trainer or other professional who has a very good eye to get a starting point. My chiro and trainer can see gait issues and tightness way better than my vets ever have. That's no slight on the vets - I just think they rely on tests rather than gait issues. At least that might help make a guesstimate of where best to spend your money on a work up
		
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Think you need to read to the end of the thread  OP has been to vets and had some diagnostics done which sound like they were definitely necessary.


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## Fiona (20 November 2018)

Aimeetess said:



*UPDATE 19/11/18*
Vet visited and x-rayed pretty much Alfies entire body. He didn't need any sedation and stood like a saint for quite a while, with me holding him and the others holding the x-ray machine parts between his legs, back, neck etc. Vet said what a top little pony. It was almost like he knew we were trying to help him.
Results..
The fetlock x-rays showed he has 'mis-shaped' fetlock joints, no arthritis or inflammation just something he would of been born with and explains his 'funny' walking and wearing his hind hoofs inwards because of this confirmation fault.
He has the start of arthritis in his hocks (right is worse) which vet is certain its due to having the mis shaped fetlock joints causing uneven wear on the hocks. Hock x-rays were clear 12 months ago so just shows how quickly it can form. Stifles, back and higher neck all good.

He does however have arthritis in his lower neck, it didn't look great if I'm honest looking at the x-rays, looked to be quite a bit of arthritis on 2 vertebra. The vet explained to me the x-rays thoroughly, as well as pointing out the spinal cord and that it looks to be ever so slightly it is restricting it. Vet doesn't think its from the kick to the mid neck (as the arthritis is much lower down) but that he could of had a fall or injury before I owned him or even been born with slightly off shaped vertebra which means arthritis can form early.

Vet is certain this explains his 'strange' canter gait and not wanting to go forwards, plus the tripping because the spinal cord is ever so slightly restricted as well as unable to turn in tight circles and not able to work in a outline. The bute wouldn't of helped this either so explains why 4 bute a day made pretty much no difference. The vet described its more a 'mechanical' fault.  It explains why he feels worse when asked to work in a outline and why he resists it so much.

He had his right hock injected last month which is the worst side (funnily enough vet had a 'feeling' he had arthritis there) so at least I know thats been done.

He also has slightly abnormal bloods when they tested the muscle enzymes or something, was quite confusing, normal for not in work should be 100 and his was around 500. PSSM are usually in the thousands or even ten thousands so he isn't hugely high but a little elevated. He said that is managed with a high fat diet and lots of turnout.

Vet has given 2 options, both pretty much result in having steriod injections in the neck.

Option 1, turn him away for the winter. Bring him back into work March time, see how he gets on. If no better, consider getting his neck steriod injected then. Vet doesn't think turning away will help significantly but could be worth a try if not wanting to spend Â£300+ on neck injections right now.

Option 2, Inject his neck now, give him some time off until Christmas time then bring him back to work as neck injections work best after 4-6 weeks and see how he gets on.

I think i'll go for option 2. I've spent so much on investigating I rather inject now and see how we get on rather than turn him away and constantly thinking over the next few months 'will he come right? will he be retired at 9? Arthritis won't suddenly get better turned away, if anything worse as we all know.

If I get his neck injected now at least I know I've tried everything.

Feeling down he has arthritis at only 9 when hes only been into his ridden career a few years but pleased we found the problem. I know many owners/riders would of gone with 'push him through it hes being naughty' so pleased I listened to him and went with my gut. I just hope we can make him more comfortable and even if hes a happy hacker i'll be happy.
		
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I'd go for number 2....

Well done for persevering OP, and good luck x x

Keep us posted. 

Fiona


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## Hormonal Filly (30 November 2018)

We ran general bloods last week as he was very down and depressed, the day after I started giving him turmeric. Within 2 days he was cantering off when I put him out in the field and trotting next to me to come in (was dragging before then) and the bloods came back yesterday all good. Vet thinks it could of been a virus but who knows if the turmeric has helped or not. No way of saying but its nice to see him happy.

Hes going to horsey hospital in a weeks time to have C6 and C7 medicated. Only 2 vets can do it, ones the director of the vets and saving nearly Â£100 going to the hospital rather than them visiting the yard (and a month wait list if its a yard job as the 2 vets are busy) 

Fingers crossed. I am thinking of going for a small ride around the hay field sunday on a long rein, just because he hasn't been ridden in weeks and the vets said it won't do any harm.


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## ester (30 November 2018)

Fingers crossed for horsepital. I agree I would inject now and carry on, it's not going to improve on it's own if just turned out. 
As an aside I would make sure his environment is as neck happy as possible, no haynets etc.


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## Hormonal Filly (12 December 2018)

We visited horsey hospital Monday to have his neck medicated. Nearly a hour trip and he loaded ok but was bad to travel (nothing new there, now wondering if this is why)

The vet, Richard, doing the injections was the only one qualified to do it and apparently their top vet at the practice (with BVSc MS(Hons) CertEM (IntMed) DipACVIM MRCVS at the end of his name) He was a absolutely outstanding vet. Full of knowledge and asked him every question i wanted to know.

They re-xrayed his neck with the much more powerful machine than the portable one. Richard went through all his new x-rays thoroughly before medicating him, showing me reports, pictures, comparing Alfies to 'normal neck', the grading scale and all about the spinal cord, neurological, how a outline is painful for horses with arthritic necks etc.

It is slightly worse than we originally thought. Alfies neck is graded a 4 with 1 being 'normal' and 5 the top end of bad. He only has it on 1 vertebra (approx C6/7) right below the kick injury I mentioned previously. Richard thinks hes always had arthritis there (possibly from injury being used as a stallion as a youngster, getting kicked in the lower neck time and time again) but never caused a major problem for him but that kick more recently suddenly caused some inflammation which has caused spinal cord compression and why he feels funny to ride more recently. You can also see from the x-ray (Using Richard's expertise on seeing x-rays like this as it was hard for me to see it if i'm honest) that the arthritis is compressing the spinal cord, actually quite a bit more than we originally thought but to 'prove this 100%' and to see the extent on how much/how badly its compressing on the spinal cord we'd have to CT scan him which would be in excess of Â£2000. Not worth doing, we know its a problem so the outcome will be the same anyway to medicate it. Its quite surprising as he isn't actually that bad neurological wise, vet expected him to be worse, apart from a odd trip and feeling odd to ride. In my notes I wrote 'feels like his back end is wobbly, not connected?' after hacking him across a field, when the vet asked me to make notes.

Richard explained this problem is always refereed to as 'the horse isn't quite right' (as I described Alfie) but more rare in ponies and cobby types, usually finer bigger horses and over 14 years of age. He did say he treated 2 horses with severe neck arthritis and spinal compression that went on and competed  at the RIO Olympics so it isn't always a career changer but can be.

I can ride him in a week, so fingers crossed i'll feel a difference. It will take 2-4 weeks for the arthritis pain to ease off (hopefully) and anything up to 3 months for the spinal cord compression to be reduced as that takes its time.

Everything makes sense now even small things since I backed him mostly like why he knocks the odd pole show jumping and this year suddenly started knocking XC jumps slightly, detests a outline and hates travelling (the breast bar sits right where his arthritis is in his neck) and these things have all gradually got worse.


He was much more forward going to the field this morning and I haven't had to drag him since he had the jabs.. only time will tell. I really hope it isn't career ending as hes a top little pony and only young.

Anyway, i'll update as we go for anyone following and anyone else in the future who has similar problems it may prove a good read as i'd of NEVER expected neck in the beginning.


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## Meowy Catkin (17 December 2018)

Just found this update, really interesting reading. I really hope that the treatment works.

*massive vibes for Alfie*


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## Fanatical (17 December 2018)

Really interesting read - thanks fro the updates. Please can I ask which vets you use - they sound very good. I am going through something similar and everyone, including vets, are baffled.


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## SEL (17 December 2018)

Also just seen the update. I might mention neck when I have the 2nd opinion vets out to mine in the new year. She definitely went over with a rider on board before she came to me and I've wondered for a while whether that left her with some damage that has only really come to light as I tried to move on with her ridden career but vets #1 were not convinced. Trouble is she also has PSSM and its easy to blame anything and everything on that.

Well done for persevering with yours. I hope he comes good but at the very least you will know you tried everything you could.


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## Hormonal Filly (17 December 2018)

Fanatical said:



			Really interesting read - thanks fro the updates. Please can I ask which vets you use - they sound very good. I am going through something similar and everyone, including vets, are baffled.
		
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Happy to PM you the vets if thats okay. 
Going to ride tonight for the first time, just going to do 10 minutes in the school long and low as the vet recommended. He did say it would be better to ride than lunge just make sure he works long and low to build those muscles. No idea how he'll go or feel so fingers crossed. He has suddenly been trotting up the drive to come in and even ran off with me the other day so fingers crossed.

Do mention it SEL worth a look.. vet said neck issues are more common than we think.  Have you looked into it possibly being brain or head related? Sounds crazy but my friends mare freaked out when a tractor came past to fast, she bolted, went over backwards and she wasn't right after and a few weeks later started fitting but very mildly. She tried medication but it got worse, was put to sleep a few days later mind this happened a lot faster but it was falling backwards and onto her head that caused it. So so sad.


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## Ceriann (17 December 2018)

So good that youâ€™ve continued to push and got an answer.  These issues, where there is nothing obvious are so hard.  I have a similar issue with my mare at the minute - not right, canter in left rein is the gait that shows this and sheâ€™s sore in her back.  Think sheâ€™s injured herself having a massive hooley in the field.  Sheâ€™s not lame (vet work up done) so treating for soft tissue injury (bute and muscle relaxer) and weâ€™ll go from there.  I will make sure I push for an answer too if not coming right with treatment and rest.


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## Hormonal Filly (18 December 2018)

Definitely push if no better Ceriann. She may of pulled a muscle due to over compensating etc. Itâ€™s worse when theyâ€™re not lame as you canâ€™t see the problem visually, that was the problem with Alfie. One 'top' vet recommended by a friend said 'there is definitely nothing wrong hes just being a typical cob' at the beginning and once I found a good vet for a second opinion he was worth he weight in gold. 

*UPDATE *
Rode Alfie yesterday for the first time in 9 weeks (wow how fast does time go!?) and am following the plan the vets gave to me which said long and low ridden work in the arena and hill work to strengthen him up. The specialist vet said you're better off riding him than lunging with this type of issue. 

He was happy, ears pricked forward. I got on him and he was walking at speed around the arena like he use too, we done lots of walking and lots of transitions stand/walk and change of direction on a loose rein encouraging long and low. He kept trying to trot and was rather full of himself but kept him in a walk, he gave a lovely long/low outline with his head just off the ground. I asked for a short trot, his ears pricked forward,  'alf trottt' and we were off. He trotted around rather full of himself so kept changing transitions to get him listening and got some lovely long and low trot work with him working into the bridle from behind. We only done a few strides of canter which was not my choice and purely him deciding hes going to have a canter, which he has not done for several months so thats a improvement alone. I couldn't really get a feel of the canter as didn't want to rush into that yet but he was definitely willing to canter without being asked. I only worked him light for 15/20 minutes and called it a day. He did trip walking back to the yard but the vet did say the spinal cord compression won't improve for 2/3 months and its only been a week. 

I now know what the issue is and now can feel why he struggles with bending and tries to flex the wrong way etc, I use to think he was just being awkward. I rode him very soft in the mouth without asking for to much bending. 
I'm going to build him up slowly and gradually over the next few months and see how we get on. He really did seem happy with himself after in his stable, which was nice to see and he earned those few mints. I'll update next in January time how we are getting on. 

I've attached a picture of the little chap, as I've spoke to much about him but never shared a photo. This was him yesterday, considering hes had some time off, must be 16 weeks since he was in regular work, he doesn't look to bad. (I did clip him out last week hoping he'd come back into work as he was a woolly wild mammoth!)


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## sportsmansB (18 December 2018)

He is just gorgeous. 
Well done you for pushing to find out what was really going on. I know all too well what it is like when you know there is an issue with your horse but people think you are being fussy / nutty / don't want to ride. He is lucky to have you


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## SEL (19 December 2018)

He looks lovely and I am so, so glad he is feeling better.

My trimmer was out yesterday and confirmed 100% that my 'not quite right' feeling was not in my head. Its handy having someone come out who has seen your horse regularly for 3 years, but not daily. The first thing she said was - hmmm, what is going on with that flare in those front feet. That's new. 

The vet I want out is away for Xmas so I have a feeling my 2019 is going to start with a big vet bill!!!


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## Hormonal Filly (17 January 2019)

*Nearly a month later so another update.*
6 weeks post steriod injections in his neck. 

I have only been managing to ride 3 times a week due to work (and having to keep the other one fit). He also had a trim 2 weeks ago, feathers all came off and he was clipped out. His feathers are so thick it does his legs no good, he also gets very scurfy, plus this year we have no mud on the current yard so it was for the best.

He definitely feels better in himself. We have been doing some light hacking and long/low flat work over poles and hill work. It seems we have good and bad days, on the weekend he felt awful, looking all around, not listening, we really didn't have a great session. Yesterday though he went the best hes gone doing 20 minutes flat work long and low. He gave me a lovely in rhythm canter and a lovely low outline feeling him working from behind is a great feeling. To hack hes much happier, now in the open fields he tries to take off (his usual self!) but when asked too he gives a lovely canter or trot across the fields and is quite strong now. Prior to medicating the neck he didn't want to even walk around the field. Hes also started squealing again first thing in the morning when hes ridden, I do think this is a happiness squeal as he does it when hes turned out as well and haven't heard it for years so was lovely to hear.  

He is gaining muscle nicely and I have noticed hes gained weight suddenly. I've owned him 5 years he was never a good doer and never held weight like a cob should, hes always been fed alot on ad-lib haylage. In the last week I've noticed (and 2 friends) his ribs are harder to feel, his bellys rounder so have had to reduce his feed by a lot. Nothing has changed bar having his neck medicated so possibly now hes comfortable he won't stress weight off? Not sure. 

I'm not sure what i'll do in the future with him, the physio said next month to start with small gridwork to start building him up but i'm terrified due to the location of the arthritis (bottom of neck) it will hurt him. I suppose time will tell if hes happy or not. 

So so glad I listened to him. I was having a think and I have about 20 bits in my tack room because he never felt 'happy' in any. Looked at my previous vet notes and I was having his teeth done far to often 2 years ago commenting that hes stiff in the neck to the vet on the notes, as well as having his x-rays in 2016 by 2 vets due to being bad travelling, non even considered anything to be wrong with the neck so its been over looked for a long time.


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## Hormonal Filly (8 March 2019)

*UPDATE 8/3/19*
*Nearly 4 months post steriod medication to neck.*

Alfie has been going great up until now. We were getting some lovely long/low work and he was really working nicely. He was happier and his canter felt great, as well as how happy he was. I was pleased to have my old boy back and he is really starting to look good.

He started to struggle in the school, so I started to ride in the big flat open field which he found easier. We would only go in the school once a week for 15 minutes but noticeable it was hard for him. I've been hacking him more to build him up, which he enjoys and fitness improved, we went for a nice hack with friends with a nice canter and short gallop, he loves hacking in groups and bear hes 14.2.. hes at the front leading the ride the entire way. He walks faster than my friends 18.2 and nippy 16.2. As they said, hes a cracking fun pony. We started doing small jumps as the vet said to crack on (hoping to build up the jumping) and I kept my place at camp (in 5 weeks time now) planning to take him as the vet said it would do him good. I was super excited but last week a small (barely 2ft) cross country fence he just didn't lift his front end and he just smashed through it. I started doubting then if we were going forwards and wondering if the steriods were wearing off but tried to remain optimistic thinking he had a bad week or something.  

Within the last week more noticeably than ever, I've started to notice hes struggling with things like before diagnosis.  Even if asked for a slight bend on either canter he struggles and trots. He is behind the leg again and right canter is almost 4 beat, feels uncomfortable to ride. It feels like it hurts him to lift his front legs up which is why he struggles with canter. He isn't tripping though and can cross his hind legs so the neurological side seems good. He had a updated flu jab a couple of weeks ago so we were planning on going out and about very soon as I know you have to have jabs within 6 months now. Its just small things he feels uncomfortable, he sees the saddle and goes to the back of his stable but more recently he really tenses up.

This morning I done his carrot stretches as we do every other day, he was worse than ever. Took about 5 minutes to get him to flex left and right not much different. I accidentally dropped the carrot on the floor in the field and he actually struggled to pick it up, it was horrible to watch.

The vet is visiting today for my other horse and I've spoken to him over the phone explaining the issues. He said with the problem with the neck, the steriod will last 6-12 months if its mainly neurological issues affecting the horse but if its pain affecting the horse, the steriod will wear off in 3/4 months. Hes going to have a look at him and see if we can do anything to help him. Not feeling very positive to be honest. I think its just hit me quite how serious his neck is (graded 4/5 for 5 being the worst arthritis) and hes just turned 10.


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## MissP (8 March 2019)

Poor Alfie. Listen to him. Don't let him get sad or sour asking for more than he can give right now. I feel for you - it is so hard to see them struggle and we never want to stop trying. Is another injection possible? X


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## milliepops (8 March 2019)

sorry to read your update OP. My horse has similar C4/5 and I've retired her   didn't seem to be much point in trying to carry on.
 I'm encouraged to read you had a good response to the injections as it's something we have up our sleeve if she starts to show that she's struggling, but I'm sorry you didn't get a longer benefit from them.  it must feel pretty gloomy with 2 horses in the wars x


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## Hormonal Filly (8 March 2019)

milliepops said:



			sorry to read your update OP. My horse has similar C4/5 and I've retired her   didn't seem to be much point in trying to carry on.
I'm encouraged to read you had a good response to the injections as it's something we have up our sleeve if she starts to show that she's struggling, but I'm sorry you didn't get a longer benefit from them.  it must feel pretty gloomy with 2 horses in the wars x
		
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Its crap, my other gelding who had the PSD operation has a infection in one hind. He had the emergency vet Monday, queue me on the phone in tears thinking he'd done something major serous he could barely get up. He needed it flushed and antibiotics injected daily and he still has the vet visiting daily as hes hopping lame.  

Just had non stop bad luck, I don't know if I can even get a refund on camp (that was Â£290)


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## milliepops (8 March 2019)

surely the camp will take a vet's note?  definitely worth a try, often places will at least give a partial if not full refund. fingers crossed for you, at this stage every little helps.


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## Fiona (8 March 2019)

I'm so sorry to hear all your crap news aimeetees  ðŸ˜­ðŸ˜­ðŸ˜­

Hugs x x 

Fiona


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## ester (8 March 2019)

You do at least know that you do get good benefit from the steroid injections. Unfortunately that can reduce with subsequent jabs but I'd think injecting at intervals dictated by him would be an option at least for a while if it were viable to you


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## Hormonal Filly (8 March 2019)

ester said:



			You do at least know that you do get good benefit from the steroid injections. Unfortunately that can reduce with subsequent jabs but I'd think injecting at intervals dictated by him would be an option at least for a while if it were viable to you
		
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True, the specialist who injected his neck did say every time you jab it gets less and less effective so they tend to not re inject more than twice a year but I may give him a call and ask his opinion. 
He isn't insured and I spent my savings (about Â£1300) already. Having his neck re injected is around Â£330 if hes taken to the hospital or around Â£400 mark if at the yard, If I had the money its worth a try (had constant bad luck with other horse and car going wrong last week)

I'll see what the vet says, if he thinks thats a viable option i'll put it on a credit card.


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## ester (8 March 2019)

I may have missed this but what is his lifestyle? The only one I know of I didn't know the details but he did improve massively when turned out all the time.


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## Hormonal Filly (8 March 2019)

ester said:



			I may have missed this but what is his lifestyle? The only one I know of I didn't know the details but he did improve massively when turned out all the time.
		
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Hes out during the day for 12 hours, everyday and in over night, been in the same routine in winter for the last 5 years. He isn't a great doer and can't ever imagine him staying out 24/7, he stands at the gate calling after about 6pm. He would happily live in his entire life, he isn't fussed by going out everyday - swear he isn't normal. Hes out 24/7 in summer unless hes in for a hour on the evening (which he loves) 
He is fed from the floor when in, can't think of anything else I can do. Hes on good joint supplements etc. Overall he looks healthy, lovely shiny coat.


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## oldie48 (8 March 2019)

I am so sorry to read this, poor Alfie and poor you. What a difficult time you are having. I can't add anything except to say I am thinking about you and wishing you well and both of your horses too.


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## Hormonal Filly (8 March 2019)

The vet visited this evening.

He explained that the steroid injections work for a longer time if itâ€™s neurological issues that are the main problem, but with Alfie itâ€™s more so the pain thatâ€™s the issue being the arthritis is 4/5 for 5 being worse possible case. The steroids only help the pain for a few months and wear off much quicker. 

He explained we could try re steroid injecting him but it wouldnâ€™t be as affective and only last a few months so itâ€™s your decision. 

I didnâ€™t think of it but he had his flu jab not long ago which can give them a stiff neck but doesnâ€™t make sense with the other things such as 4 beat canter coming back.

A friend who last rode him pre diagnosis is going to ride and see what she thinks, it is nice to see someone else ride him. 

Going to give the specialist a call Monday that injected his neck as heâ€™s the pro in this area.


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