# Hackneys - Dressage Horse?



## jcwh (27 February 2011)

what are your thoughts on Hackneys as riding horses, and specifically for a dressage horse?

my cross is a warmblood mare without good suspension, no "floaty" movement, stiff through the hock.


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## Bethie (27 February 2011)

I've only ever known 2, a long time ago a friend had a hackney x TB, she adored him but no-one else would ever willing ride him...

More recently, I met a hackney x dales, I was a bit apprehensive wondering what on earth it was going to be like and which bits of each side would have come out in the mix.   When I actually got to see him he has come out a complete blend of the 2 breeds, more towards the hackney action but not out and out hackney, looks and moves like a good warmblood and I was hoping I could persuade the owner to compete dressage as I could see getting to regionals at least being easy peasy for him, but unfortunately for me she sold him.


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## Booboos (27 February 2011)

Well as a generalisation they were not bred for the job, tend to have a high knee action and a tight neck, but modern examples may be entirely different and of course any one horse may not fit the breed stereotype. If you enhoy dressage just go ahead and give it a go!


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## cundlegreen (27 February 2011)

I sold a 14.3hh Hackney to some people for HDT. He qualified for some ridden dressage championship last year. Apparently some judges love him, some hate him! His names Cotchford Ozzy, it may be possible to find photos of him competing.


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## KarynK (28 February 2011)

I grew up with Hackneys which we kids used as riding horses as the stud we helped out on mainly bred driving horses so it was that or ride the cows!!

So really no surprise that I got a hackney of my own when I was a teenager, a purebred I bought him as I had broken him in for driving and could not bear to see him sold so I paid by instalments from my part time job and proceeded to abuse the poor creature by turning him into a riding horse!!!

We did everything, day rides, hunter trials (we won a few but he struggled with spreads in the very big open events), one day events and the odd dressage (very much tongue in cheek), he was very intelligent, he could open bolts and drink orange squash from a cup, he did tricks and was an affectionate and loyal companion who got jealous if you spent too much time with other horses, he looked after novice riders but gave experienced ones a hard time!  A real trier he would have jumped off a cliff if I had asked him but he was not made for the job and this told in his old age, though he did live to be 28!    

The shoulders of many driving horses are angled for an exaggerated elevated movement in trot and that gives them problems in canter, they do not have the stride length in canter and the high action prevents smooth gaits and transitions, they struggle to hold collected canter and tend to fall out of canter in the downward transitions through the shoulder if you are not very careful and the canter does not always look pretty, hence the love it or loath it response from judges.

There are of course exceptions but generally speaking if you are looking for elevation of paces there are better ways to get it than look at extremes, in breeding we know for some traits that you do not get the mix but either or, so by breeding to an extreme you might well get &#8220;all action&#8221; or &#8220;no action&#8221; and not the desired &#8220;some lift&#8221;.

Hackneys also tend to be a bit on the small side when compared to riding horses and can sometimes lack bone and can also be very fiery which is their showmanship side poking through.  They are the TB of the driving world and share many ancestors with the TB, they are a very old breed and have mentions dating back to the 13th Century.  In fact the Hackney or Haca as the Spanish called them were the first breed of horses in the Americas, quite a heritage!!!  I love their character and presence,  but know their limitations as a riding horse so ironically I have ended up with some of their descendants with spots which are more suited to riding!


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## boxcarhorse (28 February 2011)

Hackney horses have been used in KWPN breeding for a relatively longtime.  You'll see Hackney lines in a fair number of Dutch horses.


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## cundlegreen (28 February 2011)

I found these pics of Ozzy, no problem with shoulder movement there!


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## KarynK (1 March 2011)

I didn't say that there was anything wrong with the shoulder I was just pointing out that when you breed and train a horse to do this as a it's job, always in a trot, and several of the ones I rode including my horse's mother and father were all trained at this level:






Then expecting it to work in a pace that has not been considered in it's breeding for a hundred years or so you do not easily get something like get this in canter.






In breeding these two together you are more likely to get one or the other not a mixture of both.

Actually the top picture illustrates my point with Totillas' movement, exaggerate the front movement too much and the back end does not follow through and the Hackney's at this level rarely track up.


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## cundlegreen (1 March 2011)

The top picture in Karynk's post shows a Hackney being driven to a show wagon. The action shown here, is to a large extent artificially produced, using weighted shoes or boots and an overcheck. The Morgans are also produced the same way.
The Hackney in my picture had never been driven or ridden by me with any sort of artificial aids, and I think it shows in the way of going. As THIS Hackney has shown, it IS possibleto get good dressage results albeit not at the top level. This little chap was also spotted by a Portugese dressage trainer, who came over to the UK and apparently raved about his lovely paces!


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## KarynK (1 March 2011)

Yes Hackneys are produced at that level, but they have to have natural ability and  are bred and  built to support the desire for exaggerated paces in trot, from my experience of the many I handled in my youth  they have a natural aptitude for it, especially the top show lines I dealt with.   Observing the mares and foals at leisure they chose to move in the trot and in play their paces were impressive as one would expect from the selective breeding process they have been subjected to since WW2.  

Undoubtedly there are exceptions and some that adapt but like I said in doing so most are out of their comfort zone in canter and my boy being a cross of these show lines certainly was, but I would never knock him as what he lacked in stature and movement for the things I used him for he certainly made up for in grit and determination and guts, but he did suffer for his efforts often finishing tired when the TB types did not and having to bank a huge table as he could not quite make the spread (he would not consider refusing).  I am sure that the extra fitness and training needed resulted in the arthritis and side bone he suffered from in his latter years and for that I still feel a little guilty at not restricting to less adventurous courses earlier in his life. 

In this day and age as a serious competitor you would not readily select a TB for international show jumping, that is not to say that there are some who can and do but that is not what they are primarily bred for and with today&#8217;s desire for power and accuracy most TB&#8217;s would be out of their comfort zone.  So like I say if you are looking to produce a horse for dressage and you want more elevation then using an extreme outcross to achieve that gain is a big gamble and commercially unviable if you are intending to sell the offspring.


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## Faberge (1 March 2011)

Look at Steph Croxford's Mr President - she has been so pleased with him as a dressage horse that she's repeating the breeding and has some interesting Hackney x Warmblood youngstock.


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## Rollin (1 March 2011)

Faberge said:



			Look at Steph Croxford's Mr President - she has been so pleased with him as a dressage horse that she's repeating the breeding and has some interesting Hackney x Warmblood youngstock.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting, I recently learned from someone I know at the French National Stud, that KWPN had used some Hackneys to give better knee action.  Don't know how many or when.


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## jcwh (2 March 2011)

perhaps better then, to just scrap the idea of breeding a part hackney...


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