# Talk to me about Navicular



## Shutterbug (27 January 2016)

Arion is a 16'2 WB gelding, almost 15 years old.  Never had a day of front leg lameness in the 9 years I have owned him, went a little lame whilst out hacking a week ago.  Fine on a straight line initially but going between hind left and front right leg lameness on a circle.  Suspected an abcess, poulticed for 3 days - nothing, no heat, no swelling, no knocks or bruises.  He is shod in front only but has always had one foot smaller than the other and a slightly upright pastern as a result. He was diagnosed with mild arthritic changes in his hind left 5 years ago, has had cortisone injections x 3 and no issues in the last 2 years with his hind legs other than general winter stiffness.

Vet came out yesterday, after initial exam and trotting up he nerve blocked the lower area of the leg and Arion showed around an 80% improvement on a circle, was fine behind.  He is to attend for xrays in a few days and has been given Danalon in the meantime and I have been advised to follow his routine as normal.  I had the farrier remove his shoes this morning pending xrays

Vet has mentioned possibilites of issues with the coffin joint, pedal bone or possible Navicular.  I have done some reading and looking back now the signs are all there for Navicular.  His smallish hoof, he's had the occasional short striding, stumbling, he has been very lazy of late - my big striding warmblood has become a sluggish donkey over the last 3/4 weeks.

I know nobody can tell me if he does have Navicular, only a vet can confirm that but I am so terribly worried about him - I have no experience with this kind of condition and no idea what to expect going forward if he does have Navicular, or indeed a problem with his coffin joint or pedal bone?  So, I am looking for your experiences, good and bad - recovery time, shoes on or off?  Remedial shoeing?  Anyone have similar symptoms with their own horse?


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## Polonaise (27 January 2016)

"Navicular" is a bit of a catch all term, it has historically been used for pain at the back of the hoof or changes in the navicular bone visible on x rays. With the advent of MRI and some post mortem studies in the states it has become obvious that these changes are secondary to a variety of other injuries within the foot. Your vet will likely perform more specific nerve blocks to localise the part of the hoof effected and perform x rays to check the bony structures and hoof balance. MRI is needed if you want a definitive diagnosis.
There are various treatments available to try and slow the progression including remedial shoeing, restricted work and an assortment of medications. Some work some don't, whether they work for your horse is a bit of a gamble but in some cases horses can be kept going for years with careful management.
There is one "treatment" that has been shown, under the right circumstances, to actually improve the lesions. Rockley Farm has a success rate that no other therapy or combination of has been able to rival. Managing a horse without shoes is not always easy and is not for everyone but is certainly your best chance of getting, and keeping your horse sound. Look up their blog and click on key blog posts for more information.


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## stencilface (27 January 2016)

Ditto above. You need X-rays and or an mri to determine what's going on really. These days it's referred to as navicular syndrome to cover an assortment of foot ailments! 

My boy is at Rockley at the moment for ddft damage in both from feet, I believe in the past without scans etc this could have been termed navicular, or at least would be heading along the same lines. If he has a small hoof, is this shod? Has he ever had a period without shoes, what do his feet do then?


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## Leo Walker (27 January 2016)

Polonaise said:



			"Navicular" is a bit of a catch all term, it has historically been used for pain at the back of the hoof or changes in the navicular bone visible on x rays. With the advent of MRI and some post mortem studies in the states it has become obvious that these changes are secondary to a variety of other injuries within the foot. Your vet will likely perform more specific nerve blocks to localise the part of the hoof effected and perform x rays to check the bony structures and hoof balance. MRI is needed if you want a definitive diagnosis.
There are various treatments available to try and slow the progression including remedial shoeing, restricted work and an assortment of medications. Some work some don't, whether they work for your horse is a bit of a gamble but in some cases horses can be kept going for years with careful management.
There is one "treatment" that has been shown, under the right circumstances, to actually improve the lesions. Rockley Farm has a success rate that no other therapy or combination of has been able to rival. Managing a horse without shoes is not always easy and is not for everyone but is certainly your best chance of getting, and keeping your horse sound. Look up their blog and click on key blog posts for more information.
		
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This


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## Shutterbug (27 January 2016)

stencilface said:



			Ditto above. You need X-rays and or an mri to determine what's going on really. These days it's referred to as navicular syndrome to cover an assortment of foot ailments! 

My boy is at Rockley at the moment for ddft damage in both from feet, I believe in the past without scans etc this could have been termed navicular, or at least would be heading along the same lines. If he has a small hoof, is this shod? Has he ever had a period without shoes, what do his feet do then?
		
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Thank you both - I only removed his back shoes about 4 months ago and felt he was coping well - a bit footsy to begin with but he has good solid feet behind and the farrier was happy with him. He has never had his fronts removed, when he loses a front he tends to act like his leg is falling off but I will purchase good quality boots if required.


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## applecart14 (28 January 2016)

Tildren is a good treatment for navicular, along with remedial shoeing if it proves that this is why your boy has. 
This is a really good fact sheet about Tildren.http://www.chilternequine.com/treatments/tildren/
Here is another one: http://www.tildren.com/en/Navicular-syndrome/Treatment


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## WindyStacks (28 January 2016)

Rockley.

There is no supplement on earth will reverse changes deep within the hoof capsule.


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## ycbm (28 January 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Tildren is a good treatment for navicular, along with remedial shoeing if it proves that this is why your boy has. 
This is a really good fact sheet about Tildren.http://www.chilternequine.com/treatments/tildren/
Here is another one: http://www.tildren.com/en/Navicular-syndrome/Treatment

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I believe, having read a vet on the subject, that there is no clinical evidence that tildren helps in cases of palmar hoof pain.  This is predominantly because tildren is for bone problems, and palmar hoof pain is very rarely a bone problem.


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## ycbm (28 January 2016)

http://www.doctorramey.com/tildren/


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## applecart14 (28 January 2016)

WindyStacks said:



			Rockley.

There is no supplement on earth will reverse changes deep within the hoof capsule.
		
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Windystacks - if this was aimed at me, (and I have read through the previous posts and can't find anything relating to supplements), I did not suggest giving the horse a supplement. I suggested giving him a medication which is totally different.

I have to say that I disagree with YCBM .  There have been clinical trials to suggest Tildren is very good for navicular http://horsetalkmagazine.com/will-tildren-help-your-horse/

_Clinical trials have shown that Tildren is effective in treating navicular disease when given at a total dose of 1 milligram per kilogram of body weight broken up into 10 daily intravenous injections.  A recent research study showed that 100 percent of horses suffering from acute navicular disease (affected by the disease for six months or less) responded to Tildren treatment, whereas only 60 percent of horses that had chronic disease (affected by the disease for greater than six months) responded, and that of the horses with more acute navicular disease, 75 percent returned to normal work within six months.  _
Another website: http://www.horsehints.org/OsphosTildren.htm
_OSPHOS® is an injectable bisphosphonate solution for the control of clinical signs associated with navicular syndrome in horses four years of age and older. OSPHOS® inhibits bone resorption by binding to calcium phosphate crystals (inhibiting their formation and dissolution) and by exerting direct cellular effects on osteoclasts. Dechra's OSPHOS® has the unique advantage of intramuscular injection and is a ready-to-use solution that does not require mixing or reconstitution. In clinical trials evaluating 86 horses, clinical improvement is most evident at 2 months post-treatment with 74.7% of the horses experiencing improvement in their lameness score. For horses that initially respond to OSPHOS®, it may be readministered at 3-to 6-month intervals based on recurrence of clinical signs. The improvement seen in lameness scores during the OSPHOS® field trial was achieved in the absence of concurrent corrective shoeing, pain medication or NSAIDs." _


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## indychick30 (28 January 2016)

My boy had similar symptoms to you and after x - rays he was diagnosed with Navicular syndrome (as soneone said further up, its a catch all term) We underwent remideal shoeing, box rest and steroid injections into the joint. He was sound for a few months but then went lame again. Gave him a few months off, brought him back into work and again he was sound for a few months before going lame. At that point I pushed for MRI to get a more definite picture of what was going on and he showed up with a lesion on his DDFT. Usually with navicular type changes, I believe the initial signs/cause are soft tissue damage and the more time goes on, the more likely you are to see boney changes (I'm a newbie to this so someone correct me if I'm wrong). After the MRI we continued with corrective shoeing included wedges and heart bars. He had a little improvement but still wasnt 100% then after his third round of corrective shoeing he was worse again so I decided enough was enough and booked him in to Rockley for rehab barefoot. He's only been there for 3 weeks but already he is improving and I am pleasantly surpised given he's a thorougbred with what I thought were terrible feet! His name is Josh if you want to read his full update on the Rockley blog. I was never a pro barefoot person but from the hours and months of research I did I have come to the conclusion that this is probably the best (if only) chance of getting a sound horse who suggers with caudal heel/navicuar syndrome. 
Will keep everything crossed for you. It is a real emotional rollercoaster but I hope you find what works for you and that your neddy gets better.


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## ycbm (28 January 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Windystacks - if this was aimed at me, (and I have read through the previous posts and can't find anything relating to supplements), I did not suggest giving the horse a supplement. I suggested giving him a medication which is totally different.

I have to say that I disagree with YCBM .  There have been clinical trials to suggest Tildren is very good for navicular http://horsetalkmagazine.com/will-tildren-help-your-horse/

_Clinical trials have shown that Tildren is effective in treating navicular disease when given at a total dose of 1 milligram per kilogram of body weight broken up into 10 daily intravenous injections.  A recent research study showed that 100 percent of horses suffering from acute navicular disease (affected by the disease for six months or less) responded to Tildren treatment, whereas only 60 percent of horses that had chronic disease (affected by the disease for greater than six months) responded, and that of the horses with more acute navicular disease, 75 percent returned to normal work within six months.  _
Another website: http://www.horsehints.org/OsphosTildren.htm
_OSPHOS® is an injectable bisphosphonate solution for the control of clinical signs associated with navicular syndrome in horses four years of age and older. OSPHOS® inhibits bone resorption by binding to calcium phosphate crystals (inhibiting their formation and dissolution) and by exerting direct cellular effects on osteoclasts. Dechra's OSPHOS® has the unique advantage of intramuscular injection and is a ready-to-use solution that does not require mixing or reconstitution. In clinical trials evaluating 86 horses, clinical improvement is most evident at 2 months post-treatment with 74.7% of the horses experiencing improvement in their lameness score. For horses that initially respond to OSPHOS®, it may be readministered at 3-to 6-month intervals based on recurrence of clinical signs. The improvement seen in lameness scores during the OSPHOS® field trial was achieved in the absence of concurrent corrective shoeing, pain medication or NSAIDs." _

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How many horses were there in the studies. Who did the evaluation of improvement (they sometimes just contact the owner and ask them). Were MRI scans taken before treatment and did the tildren improve soft tissue lesions. I the study of  86 horses, what happens after two months of two months is peak improvement. What does 74% improved mean - still lame, just less lame? Does tildren act as a long term pain killer.  Who paid for the studies. What other studies exist showing that it doesn't work. 

And so on .....

I don't expect you to answer those and I'll admit that I can't be bothered to research them, because I think I already know a much better way to cure navicular.


Friend's horse had Osphos at huge expense. Even more lame at two months. Shoes removed. Sound at five weeks, remains sound at three months and now starting galloping work with a view to hunting the last day of the season.


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## Shutterbug (28 January 2016)

indychick30 said:



			My boy had similar symptoms to you and after x - rays he was diagnosed with Navicular syndrome (as soneone said further up, its a catch all term) We underwent remideal shoeing, box rest and steroid injections into the joint. He was sound for a few months but then went lame again. Gave him a few months off, brought him back into work and again he was sound for a few months before going lame. At that point I pushed for MRI to get a more definite picture of what was going on and he showed up with a lesion on his DDFT. Usually with navicular type changes, I believe the initial signs/cause are soft tissue damage and the more time goes on, the more likely you are to see boney changes (I'm a newbie to this so someone correct me if I'm wrong). After the MRI we continued with corrective shoeing included wedges and heart bars. He had a little improvement but still wasnt 100% then after his third round of corrective shoeing he was worse again so I decided enough was enough and booked him in to Rockley for rehab barefoot. He's only been there for 3 weeks but already he is improving and I am pleasantly surpised given he's a thorougbred with what I thought were terrible feet! His name is Josh if you want to read his full update on the Rockley blog. I was never a pro barefoot person but from the hours and months of research I did I have come to the conclusion that this is probably the best (if only) chance of getting a sound horse who suggers with caudal heel/navicuar syndrome. 
Will keep everything crossed for you. It is a real emotional rollercoaster but I hope you find what works for you and that your neddy gets better.
		
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I have been reading the Rockley stuff with great interest.  The farrier took Arions shoes off yesterday morning and he was turned straight out - he was brought in last night and this morning I took him into the indoor school just to see if there was a difference in his movement without the shoes.  He was still a little off but he was nowhere near as lame as he was the day before with the shoes on and he seemed a littler perkier to be honest - yes he is on Danolin but only half of what a horse his size would normally be on and I wouldn't expect such a drastic improvement after one sachet - not sure if I'm being overly hopeful though.

Xrays are booked for 8th Feb so we will have to wait and see but thank you for all the responses guys I do appreciate it


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## WindyStacks (28 January 2016)

My comment wasn't aimed at anyone - and perhaps "supplement" was the wrong word. No injection/medication/supplement/aloe vera/turmeric  will reverse the physical changes within the capsule. 

Shoes off, move, balance, time, patience, balance, repeat ad nauseum.


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## Shutterbug (16 February 2016)

OK we have had x-rays and I have spoken to both the farrier and the vet at length and I have to say I have never in my life disagreed with either but I am not convinced that their recommendation going forward is going to make a difference or help him.

Here are the x-rays of both his fronts





















Vet has advised that his navicular shows no signs of wear that would not be expected of a horse his age - he has diagnosed with lameness due to Palmer foot pain probably due to an injury/trauma to the soft tissues in the same region.  He has advised an MRI would be needed to make a definitive diagnosis but the treatment would be the same.  So, no navicular disease, good news there.  So he sends the x-rays to my farrier and has a chat with him, I then talk to the farrier who says we are to treat for navicular syndrome/heel pain and he is to be shod as he has been shoeing him for the last 3 shoeings. He has been shoeing him a bit wider on the small hoof to encourage the smaller hoof to grow down straighter and make the pastern a little less upright.  I have made it abundantly clear to both that I am looking for a barefoot remedy and am getting no support from either 

He has now had no front shoes on since 27/1 and whilst he is footsy on stony or hard ground (the recent frost over the last few days has had him walking like a 90 year old) when he is in loose worked in the school, the change in his movement is very noticeable and quite remarkable - he is moving in a way I have never seen him move in 9 years, he seems free in front and looser and seems to be more comfortable.  I know I am not qualified and please tell me if I am being stupid (I have already had some comments of "omg he needs shoes" from liveries and my farrier is not budging.  I am, as I mentioned earlier, perfectly prepared to give him as much time off as he needs to let him grow what he needs and keep on top of it with good trimming.  I have sent off his x-rays and an email to Rockley to ask if they can tell me if they think I am doing the right thing and I have contacted an experienced barefoot trimmer to ask if we can have a chat about it - I just have this huge gut feeling that slapping shoes back on him is not going to help him but what if I'm wrong and I do him more harm than good - I'm not a farrier nor am I a vet so how can I go against what they advise?  I actually cried with frustration when I came off the phone to my farrier - not his fault hes lovely and very good at what he does but I just felt he was not listening to me and was completely dismissing what I was asking - just kept saying "not with his feet" but when I took his back shoes off (which he is coping great with) and I asked about also taking off the fronts before all this - farrier was fine with it -  I'm scared of making the wrong choice for him, I dont feel qualified to go against my vet/farrier but I cant shift this gut feeling at all.  Should I just let them get on with it and keep my mouth shut or should I push for barefoot rehab and reassess in 6 months and if its not working then go down the shoe route?


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## indychick30 (16 February 2016)

Personally, I would stick with your gut feeling if you can. I had the same gut feeling months before I finally made the decision to send mine to Rockley and I wish that I&#8217;d make the decision much sooner. I went along with the corrective shoeing for three rounds before I finally said enough was enough (as he was still lame, and if anything was getting worse). 
I would say don&#8217;t be afraid to go against your farrier and if your vet is unsupportive of your decision then ask for a second opinion. 
I know it&#8217;s scary and you say you are worried about making the wrong choice for him but bear in mind that with barefoot rehabbing, worst case scenario is that if it doesn&#8217;t work you can always put shoes back on. It won&#8217;t damage  his feet in anyway and if nothing else, will improve the quality of his hoof.


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## Meowy Catkin (16 February 2016)

I wouldn't put shoes on. The imbalance on the second x-ray is quite shocking and if you can get him walking on surfaces that he is comfortable on (especially if tarmac is a good surface for him) that imbalance should come right with time. I personally prefer this to a sudden change via trimming and sticking a shoe on, which can be hard on their joints. The other hoof looks very flat and walking on confortable surfaces would do that one good too. I can imagine that his hooves would look more like a pair after a successful BF rehab.


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## Shutterbug (16 February 2016)

You have no idea what a relief it is to read the two posts above - thank you both so much.  I do have a friend who has been encouraging me down the barefoot route too but its always nice to hear it from other people who dont know you who can look at the situation and come to the same conclusion.  Yes Faracat his imbalance is rather shocking and his left hoof has been shortened and widened so many times over the years by different farriers - I had a farrier recommended to me who completely shortened it, and then refused to see there was a problem with him having two different size feet and an upright pastern and it was done over 2 shoeings so that shows how quickly good work can be undone. That was the last time he did my horse.  But with this new information and the xrays I need a different approach now - enough is enough.  He is fine on tarmac so good to know that this should help with the imbalance if hes barefoot.

I will wait to hear back from Rockley and the barefoot lady and see what they say then hopefully I will have something I can back my gut instinct up with in a discussion - vet wants him without shoes for the next few weeks anyway as hes not due to be shod for another 10 days or so, this will give me time to prepare myself.  Then I need to start a barefoot diary and sort out his diet which I am hoping Rockley can help me with also


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## ester (16 February 2016)

Please don't shoe him 
Horses have remarkable ability to heal their own feet, they have shown this time and time again. 

Sorry I missed this post the first time round. The issue I have with applecarts quotes on tildren research is that 'navicular syndrome' is a terribly woolly diagnosis as shown by those that have had MRIs, 

F had heel pain, I didn't MRI as the treatment would be the same, it would only have been for specifics. Honestly barefoot is the best thing for long term resolution of issues. Frank had his off 2/3 years ago and sounds like he was footier than your boy to start (he had very flat soles). He is 23 this year and did 4 hours hunting and 3 hours hacking over varied terrain yesterday. We were the last of the field left as everyone else had lost a shoe by then .

Always happy to talk feet/look at hoof pics (they need to be rockley style to be helpful!)/chat diet (best starting point, tell us what he is on /general support). 
Who did the barefoot lady train with?/where abouts are you?
barefoot forum here:
http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/


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## HufflyPuffly (16 February 2016)

I have nothing to offer other than my vet and farrier were both very against taking my horse barefoot. She had other things diagnosed but ultimately I believe her feet were the issue, I took the opportunity of an abscess in January to take her shoes off. 

She has been the soundest she has been in 12 months, we are out hacking again and even cantering. 

I haven't tried her on a circle recently but when I last did although still lame so much sounder than she had been, and if I slowed her down she looked sound. Barefoot is not easy or fast, we're booting to hack and she is footy on stones and with the hard frost she looked more tentative this morning, but I'm convienced it is the right thing for her.

I don't know what to do about my farrier mind when it comes to her next appointment...


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## Shutterbug (16 February 2016)

I wish there was a like button on these forums - with every post I feel more and more confident I am making the right decision for him.  You have no idea how relieved I am guys - thank you so much.

ester - I knew I had read that on here somewhere that someone had an older horse that was now hunting after going barefoot a few years before - I mentioned it to my friend on the phone last night lol.  He is usually fed on Cherry Mollychaff with speedi beet, Baileys conditioning cubes and biotin.  He gets wrapped hay when he comes in at night and has access to hay and winter grass daily.  Summered out in his own 3 acre field with my other horse. Tamsin Coombs is a AANHCP Trimmer I found on their website, I have sent her an email asking for advise, not heard back yet. Thank you for the link to the barefoot forums - am going to sign up now.  Here are pics of his front feet the day after his shoes were taken off (and the day he showed a remarkable 80% improvement on lameness literally overnight)  I will try better next time but will be keeping a diary of his progress so will keep you updated with better piccies

front left






front right







And if you want to see before and after piccies of his backs just ask, I was very pleased with them


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## ester (16 February 2016)

I think we can safely say they need some work  would be good to see the other views when you have them. Not bad frogs to start with though . And those heels will come back as they are quite under run. 

I only asked who just because they can all trim a bit differently and I am inclined towards less is more, although Frank doesn't completely self trim despite the miles and they can need a bit of help if you don't have the rockley tracks to do it for you. 

Road walking is very good for feet  we started at a lowly 5 minutes . Also don't be surprised if a few weeks further down the line he goes a bit footier, the foot tends to wake up a bit as blood flow etc increases (I booted at this point for a while). 

Low sugar, high fibre is the way forwards feed wise. The speedibeet is fine, a chaff with not molasses would be better (I use agrobs which is amazing, but others are available). 
I would probably switch the baileys too, and start feeding micronised linseed to maintain condition (I use the technical measure of a mug a day in summer, 2 mugs in winter!) - there are other feeding alternatives like copra coolstance is maintaining condition is a problem.
Scrap the biotin, horse's make enough of their own. Select a low iron general vitamin mineral supplement (forageplus/pro hoof/equimins adv complete +others these days) - I use the equimins as F eats it .


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## Shutterbug (16 February 2016)

ester said:



			I think we can safely say they need some work  would be good to see the other views when you have them. Not bad frogs to start with though . And those heels will come back as they are quite under run. 

I only asked who just because they can all trim a bit differently and I am inclined towards less is more, although Frank doesn't completely self trim despite the miles and they can need a bit of help if you don't have the rockley tracks to do it for you. 

Road walking is very good for feet  we started at a lowly 5 minutes . Also don't be surprised if a few weeks further down the line he goes a bit footier, the foot tends to wake up a bit as blood flow etc increases (I booted at this point for a while). 

Low sugar, high fibre is the way forwards feed wise. The speedibeet is fine, a chaff with not molasses would be better (I use agrobs which is amazing, but others are available). 
I would probably switch the baileys too, and start feeding micronised linseed to maintain condition (I use the technical measure of a mug a day in summer, 2 mugs in winter!) - there are other feeding alternatives like copra coolstance is maintaining condition is a problem.
Scrap the biotin, horse's make enough of their own. Select a low iron general vitamin mineral supplement (forageplus/pro hoof/equimins adv complete +others these days) - I use the equimins as F eats it .
		
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Most helpful thank you.  We have lots of good tarmac roads we can ride on that are not stoney and its a 30 min hack to the forest which has stonier tracks with grass verges and grass tracks also - or we have the option of the forest in the other direction which is a 20 min hack and pure grass tracks which can only really be used in summer.  We can start with 5 mins and work our way up to getting to the forest then.  We also have miles and miles of road work so that will not be a problem.  And now Im off to the feed shop 

Thank you everyone - you have been most helpful, I really appreciate the support and advise


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## SaffronWelshDragon (16 February 2016)

It is very difficult to stand up to and disagree with the professionals. I took my mare barefoot a few years ago (fronts only). No reason other than I felt it was the right thing to do, she's been fantastic, I won't shoe another horse now  All the best with your boy, I'm sure you are doing the right thing by him. Stick with the Phoenix forum, and look to Rockley blogs for inspiration. Looking forward to reading about his progress.


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## stilltrying (16 February 2016)

Some great advice already but I just wanted to add that I took my big ginger boy barefoot, not because of navicular / lameness, but because shoes were slowly but surely wrecking his feet.  He is 17h tb x and would be hopping lame if he lost a shoe, but I was amazed how quickly he adapted.  I started by handwalking on gravel free tarmac and did this for several weeks before riding. What was so interesting to see was the new growth in hoof coming through, the change to his hoof shape was quite dramatic. When shod he had quite flat feet, and a slightly crooked leg from the fetlock down, which meant that hoof splayed out to one side.  Once the shoes were off his hoof was able to balance the kink in his leg and all round his hooves grew tighter and more upright.  Fascinating stuff! : )


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## Shutterbug (16 February 2016)

Thank you both. It's very encouraging to hear such positive stories. Farrier is out to shoe another horse at my yard tomorrow so am bracing myself to tell him how I want to proceed. I just hope he can support us both with his transition and help us. But as someone else told me today worst case scenario he tells me he can't be involved and I find a farrier who will offer the support he needs. I am committing to this. Fair enough of it doesn't work it doesn't work and we can try it the shod way but I want to give him the best possible chance to be as nature intended and allow his hooves to be what he needs them to be.


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## ester (16 February 2016)

My farrier's response was well I would rather do x/y/z but it is your choice but I don't know enough about it so suggest you get someone else (all on good terms!)


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## Roasted Chestnuts (16 February 2016)

Well you know my thoughts and my opinions Hun, the back feet have changed a lot for the better in such a short time and you've seen the way my old boy who was always in shoes and shod for deviation all his days has adapted and is thriving and sound over all surfaces now  

Shoes are optional, not a requirement, exactly like certain items of tack 

He needs to grow what he needs, not have his feet told what they need.


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## LD&S (17 February 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			I have been reading the Rockley stuff with great interest.  The farrier took Arions shoes off yesterday morning and he was turned straight out - he was brought in last night and this morning I took him into the indoor school just to see if there was a difference in his movement without the shoes.  He was still a little off but he was nowhere near as lame as he was the day before with the shoes on and he seemed a littler perkier to be honest - yes he is on Danolin but only half of what a horse his size would normally be on and I wouldn't expect such a drastic improvement after one sachet - not sure if I'm being overly hopeful though.

Xrays are booked for 8th Feb so we will have to wait and see but thank you for all the responses guys I do appreciate it
		
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I'm sure someone with more knowledge than me will be able to explain it better but I've read there is often a 'honeymoon period' when shoes are removed and 1-3 weeks after your horse will possibly be showing signs of pain/discomfort, from what I've read this is due to more feeling coming back to the feet but that in most cases it is short lived and putting shoes back on often only masks a problem.

I hope you continue to see an improvement.


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## ycbm (17 February 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			OK we have had x-rays and I have spoken to both the farrier and the vet at length and I have to say I have never in my life disagreed with either but I am not convinced that their recommendation going forward is going to make a difference or help him.

Here are the x-rays of both his fronts





















Vet has advised that his navicular shows no signs of wear that would not be expected of a horse his age - he has diagnosed with lameness due to Palmer foot pain probably due to an injury/trauma to the soft tissues in the same region.  He has advised an MRI would be needed to make a definitive diagnosis but the treatment would be the same.  So, no navicular disease, good news there.  So he sends the x-rays to my farrier and has a chat with him, I then talk to the farrier who says we are to treat for navicular syndrome/heel pain and he is to be shod as he has been shoeing him for the last 3 shoeings. He has been shoeing him a bit wider on the small hoof to encourage the smaller hoof to grow down straighter and make the pastern a little less upright.  I have made it abundantly clear to both that I am looking for a barefoot remedy and am getting no support from either 

He has now had no front shoes on since 27/1 and whilst he is footsy on stony or hard ground (the recent frost over the last few days has had him walking like a 90 year old) when he is in loose worked in the school, the change in his movement is very noticeable and quite remarkable - he is moving in a way I have never seen him move in 9 years, he seems free in front and looser and seems to be more comfortable.  I know I am not qualified and please tell me if I am being stupid (I have already had some comments of "omg he needs shoes" from liveries and my farrier is not budging.  I am, as I mentioned earlier, perfectly prepared to give him as much time off as he needs to let him grow what he needs and keep on top of it with good trimming.  I have sent off his x-rays and an email to Rockley to ask if they can tell me if they think I am doing the right thing and I have contacted an experienced barefoot trimmer to ask if we can have a chat about it - I just have this huge gut feeling that slapping shoes back on him is not going to help him but what if I'm wrong and I do him more harm than good - I'm not a farrier nor am I a vet so how can I go against what they advise?  I actually cried with frustration when I came off the phone to my farrier - not his fault hes lovely and very good at what he does but I just felt he was not listening to me and was completely dismissing what I was asking - just kept saying "not with his feet" but when I took his back shoes off (which he is coping great with) and I asked about also taking off the fronts before all this - farrier was fine with it -  I'm scared of making the wrong choice for him, I dont feel qualified to go against my vet/farrier but I cant shift this gut feeling at all.  Should I just let them get on with it and keep my mouth shut or should I push for barefoot rehab and reassess in 6 months and if its not working then go down the shoe route?
		
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Did your vet comment on the drastic lateral imbalance in the left fore and the milder one in the right fore? The bone at the bottom - P3/coffin bone - should be parallel with the floor.  No wonder he was lame in shoes!

I'd guess this has  everything to do with those wonky feet and collateral ligament strain that goes with lateral imbalance.


He'll sort that out now you have his shoes off, and I'm not surprised he's moving better already.

The poster above is right, and we don't know why, but the feet seem to 'come alive'  after a few days or a few weeks and can be sure when they weren't before, unrelated to wearing from work.

Watch out for spring grass though, the spring flowers are up already.


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## FfionWinnie (17 February 2016)

He's your horse so you should do what you want. 

However, how he is moving on a soft surface, is surely how he will move when his feet have toughened up a bit, on all surfaces. 

I would absolutely follow the Rockley methodology with this horse. You've got nothing to lose and everything to gain. 

None of mine are shod and none have any good issues but I've transitioned about 9 horses now and it's honestly not that difficult. 

My daughter's pony was utterly crippled without front shoes and her front feet were tiny compared to her (bare self trimming sound) back feet. I took the shoes off 18 months ago and her feet are tremendous now. She has very rubbish conformation and is 14 and I feel self trimming is absolutely the best thing for her as it is for all my others.


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## Goldenstar (17 February 2016)

I am late to this thread but it's shocking but not surprising to me that the farrier never pointed out to you the plight of that foot in the second picture .
If this where my horse I would defiantly go the BF route .
That does not mean the horse can never wear shoes now I have my routine sussed I move my horses between shoes and BF as it suits me .
Get the feet first book that Nic Barker wrote it will give a great overview of what your trying to achieve .
Try the horse on the horse on the forage plus performance balancers they really got my horses feet growing expensive but the best things I have found so far.
With the professionals while I would consider stretching the truth , in the best situations you would do your thing and the vet would X-ray the feet after three months and then you can see the improvement (and that is a wonderful moment ) but if the vet won't cooperate it's harder .
It's complicated if you are insured because the clock is ticking I am not so it's easier for me I am not sure I would have got started on bf if I had been as it clouds the issue .
If you meet real resistance I would consider throwing your hands in horror bursting into tears and say that's it you can't cope and you are putting him in the field not fully honest but easier , then look for professionals with a more open mind .
My best friend is an equine vet  and was very very anti when I started she come round over time .


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## stencilface (17 February 2016)

Thumbs up OP, so glad you have made this decision, those xrays are shocking - I'm surprised he could walk at all!

Just stay firm on what you're doing.  One of the main reasons I wanted to send mine to Rockley, as well we the obvious benefits for my horse  was the support I would get from the experience.  My 'knowledgeable' family are not really supportive (always questioning in a non helpful way about limiting grass intake etc etc), the farrier was offering advice on what other raised heel shoes we could try. I just kept schtum as couldn't face the conversation with him. I'm hoping mine will be practically self trimming with a few visits from a trimmer I've contacted.

Good luck with it, and join the Phoenix horse forum too if you want more information. I ahve to say, going barefoot has made me question so much about what I do with my horses day to day care and whether the reasons for doing things make actual sense, or whether I do them because 'thats the way things are done'


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## ester (17 February 2016)

ycbm said:



			Did your vet comment on the drastic lateral imbalance in the left fore and the milder one in the right fore? The bone at the bottom - P3/coffin bone - should be parallel with the floor.  No wonder he was lame in shoes!

I'd guess this has  everything to do with those wonky feet and collateral ligament strain that goes with lateral imbalance.


He'll sort that out now you have his shoes off, and I'm not surprised he's moving better already.

The poster above is right, and we don't know why, but the feet seem to 'come alive'  after a few days or a few weeks and can be sure when they weren't before, unrelated to wearing from work.

Watch out for spring grass though, the spring flowers are up already.
		
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Somehow I had skimmed past the xrays. If MRId I think there would be quite  few soft tissue issues going on. The left fore is pretty shocking.


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## ycbm (17 February 2016)

ester said:



			Somehow I had skimmed past the xrays. If MRId I think there would be quite  few soft tissue issues going on. The left fore is pretty shocking.
		
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They are similar to one foot in the horse of a friend I am currently helping. Her vet never mentioned lateral imbalance, gave a diagnosis of navicular bone pain in a horse lame in one front foot only, treated with Osphos - for bone remineralisation - at vast expense and prescribed heart bars in which he was even more lame and began to produce wrinkles in the side of the bad foot.

He was sound on flat ground after five days without shoes. He did an hour round a farm ride with jumps earlier this week after thirteen weeks barefoot and will be doing a short day hunting before the season closes.

You've done the right thing OP. It's no guarantee but it's got a much better chance of working than any medication or shoeing.


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## Shutterbug (17 February 2016)

ycbm said:



			Did your vet comment on the drastic lateral imbalance in the left fore and the milder one in the right fore? The bone at the bottom - P3/coffin bone - should be parallel with the floor.  No wonder he was lame in shoes!

I'd guess this has  everything to do with those wonky feet and collateral ligament strain that goes with lateral imbalance.


He'll sort that out now you have his shoes off, and I'm not surprised he's moving better already.

The poster above is right, and we don't know why, but the feet seem to 'come alive'  after a few days or a few weeks and can be sure when they weren't before, unrelated to wearing from work.

Watch out for spring grass though, the spring flowers are up already.
		
Click to expand...

He has always had one foot smaller than the other and a slightly upright pastern - over the years I have various farriers try and fix it with corrective shoeing to various degrees of success - last year my farrier cut back on his clients and I used a guy recommended to me who shod him 3 times and undid all the good work previous farriers had done. When challenged on the phone after a shoeing which I was not present for, he said my horses hooves were fine, whilst I stood there staring at what looked like 2 hooves from from completely different horses - I was horrified and he was instantly sacked!

My current farrier was in the process of restarting the corrective shoeing process by putting on a slightly wider shoe and allowing the hoof to widen gradually when, 2 weeks after his last shoeing, he went lame.I had already removed his back shoes 6 months ago and started educating myself about BF and its benefits, I have since looked at the Rockley site, spoken to a barefoot specialist and read all the fantastic advise given by you guys and made a 100% definite decision he is going completely barefoot.  I spoke to my farrier this morning and, thankfully, he has agreed to support us so long as I assure him I will keep him in the loop with everything, and x-ray him again no later than 6 months from now so that we can see if there has been an improvement in that imbalance.


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## Shutterbug (17 February 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			He's your horse so you should do what you want. 

However, how he is moving on a soft surface, is surely how he will move when his feet have toughened up a bit, on all surfaces. 

I would absolutely follow the Rockley methodology with this horse. You've got nothing to lose and everything to gain. 

None of mine are shod and none have any good issues but I've transitioned about 9 horses now and it's honestly not that difficult. 

My daughter's pony was utterly crippled without front shoes and her front feet were tiny compared to her (bare self trimming sound) back feet. I took the shoes off 18 months ago and her feet are tremendous now. She has very rubbish conformation and is 14 and I feel self trimming is absolutely the best thing for her as it is for all my others.
		
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Thanks Ffion - I have had that first sentence said to me a few times over the last few days and you are absolutely right - hes my horse, I have had him for 9 years and I know him better than anyone so I should trust that I know what is best for him in this scenario.  Its always encouraging to hear stories of other peoples success stories so thank you for sharing that


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## Shutterbug (17 February 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			I am late to this thread but it's shocking but not surprising to me that the farrier never pointed out to you the plight of that foot in the second picture .
If this where my horse I would defiantly go the BF route .
That does not mean the horse can never wear shoes now I have my routine sussed I move my horses between shoes and BF as it suits me .
Get the feet first book that Nic Barker wrote it will give a great overview of what your trying to achieve .
Try the horse on the horse on the forage plus performance balancers they really got my horses feet growing expensive but the best things I have found so far.
With the professionals while I would consider stretching the truth , in the best situations you would do your thing and the vet would X-ray the feet after three months and then you can see the improvement (and that is a wonderful moment ) but if the vet won't cooperate it's harder .
It's complicated if you are insured because the clock is ticking I am not so it's easier for me I am not sure I would have got started on bf if I had been as it clouds the issue .
If you meet real resistance I would consider throwing your hands in horror bursting into tears and say that's it you can't cope and you are putting him in the field not fully honest but easier , then look for professionals with a more open mind .
My best friend is an equine vet  and was very very anti when I started she come round over time .
		
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My farrier was working towards correcting the left foot when he went lame - I had a previous farrier who fixed it and he was quite even, then he cut back on clients so I used another guy who promptly undid all his good efforts of corrective shoeing and he had two different sized feet again - I have now found a good farrier who was starting to fix it again and I think perhaps all the widening and shortening has caused the issue and the lameness cause hes probably had trauma to the soft tissue. Enough is enough though, its time to let him grow what he needs and let it sort itself, Im not having his hoof yanked and pulled around anymore.

Luckily my farrier has agreed to support us and is on board - the vet will follow.  Hes been my vet for over 10 years and we have a fab relationship so he will listen to my farrier.  Your suggestion of bursting into tears and saying I cant cope did make me laugh though


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## Shutterbug (17 February 2016)

stencilface said:



			Thumbs up OP, so glad you have made this decision, those xrays are shocking - I'm surprised he could walk at all!

Just stay firm on what you're doing.  One of the main reasons I wanted to send mine to Rockley, as well we the obvious benefits for my horse  was the support I would get from the experience.  My 'knowledgeable' family are not really supportive (always questioning in a non helpful way about limiting grass intake etc etc), the farrier was offering advice on what other raised heel shoes we could try. I just kept schtum as couldn't face the conversation with him. I'm hoping mine will be practically self trimming with a few visits from a trimmer I've contacted.

Good luck with it, and join the Phoenix horse forum too if you want more information. I ahve to say, going barefoot has made me question so much about what I do with my horses day to day care and whether the reasons for doing things make actual sense, or whether I do them because 'thats the way things are done'
		
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Thanks stencilface - its been the great advise on here thats really given me the balls to make a stand.  You guys have given such positive support and I'm so grateful, plus my friend BlackBeastie on here has been a massive support as we know each other IRL. I joined the forums, yet to post though as havent had time but I will - and I am currently devouring lots of information on feed and I know exactly what you mean - Im looking at both my horses daily routines now.  I also have a 4 year old who has, and never will have a shoe near him unless medically necessary.  This whole thing is making me re-evaluate everything


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## Shutterbug (17 February 2016)

ester said:



			Somehow I had skimmed past the xrays. If MRId I think there would be quite  few soft tissue issues going on. The left fore is pretty shocking.
		
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The vet did say it likely Palmar foot pain as a result of trauma/injury to the surrounding tissue.  Farrier is on board and will speak to the vet who will agree with the farrier.  So Im good to go


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## ester (17 February 2016)

excellent update .


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## Shutterbug (17 February 2016)

ycbm said:



			They are similar to one foot in the horse of a friend I am currently helping. Her vet never mentioned lateral imbalance, gave a diagnosis of navicular bone pain in a horse lame in one front foot only, treated with Osphos - for bone remineralisation - at vast expense and prescribed heart bars in which he was even more lame and began to produce wrinkles in the side of the bad foot.

He was sound on flat ground after five days without shoes. He did an hour round a farm ride with jumps earlier this week after thirteen weeks barefoot and will be doing a short day hunting before the season closes.

You've done the right thing OP. It's no guarantee but it's got a much better chance of working than any medication or shoeing.
		
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Thanks ycbm - hes to have the rest of this week off then his BF rehab can begin - luckily I have lots of good flat roads that go for miles and a nice soft grass forest area we can do faster work on so we can build it up and fingers crossed I will be showing you all much improved x-rays in 6 months.


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## ycbm (17 February 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			Thanks ycbm - hes to have the rest of this week off then his BF rehab can begin - luckily I have lots of good flat roads that go for miles and a nice soft grass forest area we can do faster work on so we can build it up and fingers crossed I will be showing you all much improved x-rays in 6 months.
		
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I know you know this but I'm going to say it anyway      His feet have been struggling to be different while farriers try to make them look the same (it's possible the one who left you with two very different feet was actually doing the best job!). He may produce two completely unmatched feet and that doesn't matter one bit as long as he is getting sounder on them. They may eventually become a pair, but that can take many years as his body unlocks whatever kinks caused him to need odd feet in the first place.

So, get your walking boots on and walk, walk, walk in hand if necessary, that's the key. Do at least two days in every three, rain or shine and you've got a very, very good chance of reporting a sound horse in a few weeks, or maybe a few months, time.

Good luck!


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## Shutterbug (17 February 2016)

ycbm said:



			I know you know this but I'm going to say it anyway      His feet have been struggling to be different while farriers try to make them look the same (it's possible the one who left you with two very different feet was actually doing the best job!). He may produce two completely unmatched feet and that doesn't matter one bit as long as he is getting sounder on them. They may eventually become a pair, but that can take many years as his body unlocks whatever kinks caused him to need odd feet in the first place.

So, get your walking boots on and walk, walk, walk in hand if necessary, that's the key. Do at least two days in every three, rain or shine and you've got a very, very good chance of reporting a sound horse in a few weeks, or maybe a few months, time.

Good luck!
		
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Thanks. That's very true and so long as he's sound and happy then I'm happy. Best Buy myself some new boots at the weekend.

I promise to update you all. I'm going to start a blog and add all your posts to it if that's ok? I want to have some kind of record of what I'm doing and why so that perhaps someone else can benefit from it in the future.


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## ycbm (17 February 2016)

Fine by me. It's lovely to look back on. Take lots of pictures!


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## indychick30 (18 February 2016)

Great to to hear! Best of luck. Looking forward to updates


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## Goldenstar (18 February 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			My farrier was working towards correcting the left foot when he went lame - I had a previous farrier who fixed it and he was quite even, then he cut back on clients so I used another guy who promptly undid all his good efforts of corrective shoeing and he had two different sized feet again - I have now found a good farrier who was starting to fix it again and I think perhaps all the widening and shortening has caused the issue and the lameness cause hes probably had trauma to the soft tissue. Enough is enough though, its time to let him grow what he needs and let it sort itself, Im not having his hoof yanked and pulled around anymore.

Luckily my farrier has agreed to support us and is on board - the vet will follow.  Hes been my vet for over 10 years and we have a fab relationship so he will listen to my farrier.  Your suggestion of bursting into tears and saying I cant cope did make me laugh though 

Click to expand...

He may end up with two very different looking feet from the outside so you need to be prepared to be led by what's going on side .
I started out with a trimmer helping me he was great and taught me loads including eventually how to rasp  ( later my farrier helped me a lot with this ).
Learning to rasp has been great I can now rasp weekly which is great with some of the horses .
I wish all the best with this expect some ups and downs but it's amazing watching the feet change .
I would defiantly get some boots for the front feet you might use them very little but the times you need them makes it worth it .


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## tallyho! (18 February 2016)

Late to the party here...

glad you have found a good solution . The only way for navicular is shoes off to give the insides room to heal and grow a decent amount cushioning and support for itself.

Personally, I wouldn't have let a farrier who has no success in bf horses anywhere near my horse, opting for a well qualified trimmer who has hundreds. But That's just me...


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## HashRouge (18 February 2016)

Some excellent advice on this thread and I do think you are doing the right thing, 100%. Important things to remember (and I'm sure this has been mentioned) as you will need to be very careful with the Spring grass coming through. This gave me quite a lot of trouble over the first few years with my mare, although she does have cushings which makes them extra sensitive! The right feed is important too (I'm sure Ester made some good suggestions) in one of her posts. And finally, if you are still having your horse trimmed, whether by a farrier or by a trimmer, be aware that they may take far too much off. If your horse is uncomfortable after being trimmed, there is a problem with the trim. This is something a lot of us have to deal with when we first take shoes off - it is always a bit of a shock when you first realise that the professionals don't always know best! I've had trouble with both a farrier and a trimmer leaving my mare quite uncomfortable even though, cosmetically, her feet looked beautiful. I now use the best bloke, who is both a farrier and a qualified trimmer, he has never left my horse any less sound than he found her, plus he's wonderful with the horses . However, if you can get your horse to a stage where he self-trims, that will be the best thing for both of you. Unfortunately my mare is retired, but I'd love her to be able to do it all herself!

Good luck, I'm really interested to see how this goes for you both


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## SaffronWelshDragon (18 February 2016)

Will definitely follow your blog, leave a link here


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## Shutterbug (18 February 2016)

Thanks guys - I'm quite excited and feeling really positive about it all now.  I know there will be moments of disappointment and possibly some frustrations along the way and I am going into it with eyes wide open,  but I keep reminding myself how much better his back feet look since I removed his shoes - I had added some pics here for comparison so you can see how well hes doing with his hinds.  The images to the left are of the hoof in October - this was the first farrier visit since removing his shoes 7 weeks previous.  The images to the right were the hind feet taken on 2nd February - his last farrier visit at that point was 30th December.  

My farrier also down my 4 year old (he is 5 in March) who I backed last year - he rarely needs anything doing - he's done a fair bit of road hacking this year so has been pretty much self trimming so other than keeping an eye on an area of the hoof wall that had to be dug out due to seedy toe - hes pretty much tidied up with a rasp and that's it - I have complete confidence in my farrier to do what is needed but I am also asking a barefoot specialist to take a look at him just in case she spots something he misses and I will get her back out in future to help me keep on the right track.

Back lefts





Back rights


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## ester (18 February 2016)

Oooh how exciting they were flat as a pancake weren't they . He looks to have a lot more collateral groove depth now and developing some concavity. I also wouldn't worry about the bars doing their own thing a bit at the moment. They will just be providing support while things change. Looks like he had some false sole around the tip of his frog on the right that has now come away .


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## Shutterbug (18 February 2016)

And just to top it all off - my vet just called for an update on my convo with the farrier and has given his full support - he wants to assess him in 6-8 weeks and have regular contact, but after I explained my reasons and why I wanted to try BF, along with my rehab plans, he has agreed its a good idea to try this first and then go down the shod route if this does not work.

What a relief - again thank you all, you have given me the confidence to voice my concerns with the vet/farrier plan of shoeing to fix it and to push for what I want for Arion. I truly believe its in his best interests and I am so utterly relieved that they are now both on board.


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## Andalucian (18 February 2016)

Nice thread, good luck, keep asking if you have wobbles......it's "normal" when you're pioneering a different path. Right decision for your horse, stick with it.


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## Shutterbug (18 February 2016)

Andalucian said:



			Nice thread, good luck, keep asking if you have wobbles......it's "normal" when you're pioneering a different path. Right decision for your horse, stick with it.
		
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Thanks -  I'm really glad his back feet are doing so well - I think anytime I have a wobble with his fronts I will have to stare at his back feet to show myself that he can do it and its worth sticking to - alternatively I will come here for a cry and a good kick up the backside to get me back on track


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## tallyho! (18 February 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			Thanks guys - I'm quite excited and feeling really positive about it all now.  I know there will be moments of disappointment and possibly some frustrations along the way and I am going into it with eyes wide open,  but I keep reminding myself how much better his back feet look since I removed his shoes - I had added some pics here for comparison so you can see how well hes doing with his hinds.  The images to the left are of the hoof in October - this was the first farrier visit since removing his shoes 7 weeks previous.  The images to the right were the hind feet taken on 2nd February - his last farrier visit at that point was 30th December.  

My farrier also down my 4 year old (he is 5 in March) who I backed last year - he rarely needs anything doing - he's done a fair bit of road hacking this year so has been pretty much self trimming so other than keeping an eye on an area of the hoof wall that had to be dug out due to seedy toe - hes pretty much tidied up with a rasp and that's it - I have complete confidence in my farrier to do what is needed but I am also asking a barefoot specialist to take a look at him just in case she spots something he misses and I will get her back out in future to help me keep on the right track.

Back lefts





Back rights





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That is a really good idea getting a trimmer to check - they see hundreds of working barefoot horses whereas a farrier might not. Maybe this will change in the future. For anyone new to bf and reading, EPAUK are the only training body now so please look to see that they are qualified as this qualification is LANTRA approved. Previously UKNHCP did their own training but not now.

Those photos speak for themselves! Hooves are amazing - with the right diet, amount of work and good trimming, it really is fantastic. 

It may not be for every single last horse out there but I love seeing more and more horses out there competing without a glint of shoes


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## Goldenstar (20 February 2016)

I do agree with Tallyho! You need to be sure that the farrier has experience of working BF horses as some of them have non what so ever .
I used a trimmer when I first started out he was so good and I learnt loads unfortunately he did his job too well and I look after them myself now when BF so I rarely see him.


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## FfionWinnie (20 February 2016)

He might end up with odd feet. I wouldn't be tempted to try and make them the same. 

Imagine if you had one foot smaller than the other and they tried stretching it as an adult to make it match. Ow. Let him grow the feet he needs - if they are a mismatched pair but he is sound, that will be your answer.


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## Shutterbug (20 February 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			He might end up with odd feet. I wouldn't be tempted to try and make them the same. 

Imagine if you had one foot smaller than the other and they tried stretching it as an adult to make it match. Ow. Let him grow the feet he needs - if they are a mismatched pair but he is sound, that will be your answer.
		
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That's exactly how I explained it to my OH last night with the odd feet analogy lol. Yeah he needs to grow what he needs and it's two odd feet he needs then that's fine. So long as he's comfortable, balanced and happy. Im convinced all the widening and shortening that's been done to try and get his feet the same size in the past have contributed to the issue he has now after doing some research and reading.

He has had cortisone injections for mild arthritic changes in his hock in his hind right and you can see from the pics above how his frog and bars have grown differently in each back foot in accordance with his way of going. That was quite the eye opener for me.

I have taken 6 photos of each hoof now from all different angles to get my blog started so going to get that done this weekend.


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## tallyho! (20 February 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			That's exactly how I explained it to my OH last night with the odd feet analogy lol. Yeah he needs to grow what he needs and it's two odd feet he needs then that's fine. So long as he's comfortable, balanced and happy. Im convinced all the widening and shortening that's been done to try and get his feet the same size in the past have contributed to the issue he has now after doing some research and reading.

He has had cortisone injections for mild arthritic changes in his hock in his hind right and you can see from the pics above how his frog and bars have grown differently in each back foot in accordance with his way of going. That was quite the eye opener for me.

I have taken 6 photos of each hoof now from all different angles to get my blog started so going to get that done this weekend.
		
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It looks as if you have started your journey in earnest 

Never stop learning and always keep an open mind, don't be fearful of taking a step back sometimes and remember shoes/boots are all tools to help you keep a sound horse. I always used to think diet was everything but actually, I now know from experience it is not... exercise is the dominating factor above all else.


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## Shutterbug (1 March 2016)

UPDATE!

I still have not gotten round to starting his proper blog, I will get round to it.  So I shall just do an update here and then get down to my wobbles, which you will all hopefully help me with.

So the shoes have been off 4 weeks or thereabouts now and hes not been ridden for 6 weeks.  He had his first trim on Friday, farrier barely removed anything to be fair and he really took his time which was good to see and gave me confidence hes committed to helping.  I havent made an appointment with the barefoot lady yet as Im working so much overtime I cant squeeze her in but this will be done before his next trim in 8 weeks - farrier is a regular at my yard so if I think he needs seeing to sooner he shall be.

I have started walking him out in hand on 19th February - 10 mins, 5 days per week and we have now increased to 15mins, 5 days per week - we will continue with this until he is doing 30 mins of road work 5 days a week and doing so comfortably.  Our roads are stone and bump free and he was managing perfectly well until a few days after his first trim.  He is not lame, he is like a 90 year old man walking down the road, very slowly and very unhappily.  I could cry for him.  I was warned this would happen, that he would go a few weeks ok and then seem to get worse and he has.  I feel like the worst horse owner on the planet.  So major wobble and sticking shoes on his front feet has crossed my mind several times this week   I have changed his feed - hes on hay now rather than haylage, and hes on alfa alfa with conditioing, speedi beat and I have added Limestone flour and a broad spectrum vitamin/iron supplement 

So to pics - ready for a jaw dropper??

Front right - first image is from 19/2 - second pic is from 1st March - I kept checking the photos cause I was convinced I had accidentally taken photos of the wrong horse. 







Front lefts - same dates 







I have more to post that are similarly amazing in difference - that left hoof from the side looks dramatically different.  I will post more when I get home from work as the systems here are slow when using Photobucket to upload images.

Im pretty gobsmacked - maybe this is normal for barefoot but I really wasnt expecting to see such a massive change in his hooves this early in the game.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (1 March 2016)

Good positive changes well done


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## Shutterbug (1 March 2016)

I love how his hooves are getting rounder - Im very overly pleased about this fact, silly I know but I havent shut up about it today.


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## stencilface (1 March 2016)

He's obviously working them hard! Looks like his heels have shortened too? And ha frogs look better too. I'm like you, nothing like a nice round smooth foot!


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## FfionWinnie (2 March 2016)

Looking good. Doubt there will be anything for the farrier to trim next time. Which is good


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## Shutterbug (2 March 2016)

Some more images 

front left same dates as before







front right







Is it just me or is everyone else seeing the massive difference in the shape of his feet already??  I keep thinking I'm seeing things or being unduly surprised?

Front view of left







Front right







As he is quite ouchy atm I am going to leave the in hand walking to let him get used to feeling his feet again - the field is nice and soft and muddy so Im hoping that will give him some relief from the harder ground and we will resume in hand walking next week


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## Hetsmum (2 March 2016)

I am very new to the barefoot thing so my opinion isn't worth anything but I def think they look better!  Do you know why from the front left the inside of the hoof wall seems to come down at a much steeper angle than the outside hoof wall?  My newly barefoot horse has the same issue and farrier says it can only be corrected with shoes.  Of course I don't believe this, but is it necessary that the angels match?  Would the horse not grow the foot it needs?................I have read the Barefoot horse book and I confess the photos confuse me as do the comments people make.  I really need someone face to face to "point and show".........


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## Shutterbug (2 March 2016)

Hetsmum said:



			I am very new to the barefoot thing so my opinion isn't worth anything but I def think they look better!  Do you know why from the front left the inside of the hoof wall seems to come down at a much steeper angle than the outside hoof wall?  My newly barefoot horse has the same issue and farrier says it can only be corrected with shoes.  Of course I don't believe this, but is it necessary that the angels match?  Would the horse not grow the foot it needs?................I have read the Barefoot horse book and I confess the photos confuse me as do the comments people make.  I really need someone face to face to "point and show".........
		
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He has deviation in that hoof and an upright pastern which he has pretty much always had - farriers have tried to widen the hoof, its been shortened again and so on and so forth and its been left like that.  I found this website very helpful in explaining what a hoof should look like  

http://www.thenaturalhoof.co.uk/#!hoof-deformity/cr3g

Honestly I was the same when I took my boys back shoes off - it was pretty much a minefield of information and having been a horse owner who trusted my farrier knew what was best I never every questioned it.  I do now.  Just keep reading and looking at pics - you will get it.  My head was swimming with it at one point but its much clearer now


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## ester (2 March 2016)

Amazing what they can do isn't it  Those side on pics from the start definitely make me cringe! 

Is there possibly something else going on higher up in that left fore, it would be interesting to see a whole leg pic from the front. We have a hind foot like that 

Hetsmum where abouts are you? No it isn't necessary that the angles match. What matters is that the hoof lands straight- many of the non matching angles/slight flares on one side you see actually enable the hoof to land straight. 
Frank wears the outside of his feet much more than the inside, I am told this is because of his knees . His hoof still lands and takes off straight. He isn't allowed to keep that deviation as it encourages his toe to run forwards too much and his breakover forward which doesn't help him.


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## Hetsmum (3 March 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			He has deviation in that hoof and an upright pastern which he has pretty much always had - farriers have tried to widen the hoof, its been shortened again and so on and so forth and its been left like that.  I found this website very helpful in explaining what a hoof should look like  

http://www.thenaturalhoof.co.uk/#!hoof-deformity/cr3g

Honestly I was the same when I took my boys back shoes off - it was pretty much a minefield of information and having been a horse owner who trusted my farrier knew what was best I never every questioned it.  I do now.  Just keep reading and looking at pics - you will get it.  My head was swimming with it at one point but its much clearer now 

Click to expand...

Thank you so much - I will take a look at the website now.  It is a minefield and I too trust my farrier having been with him over 20 years and he has performed miracles when I have had 2 with laminitis.  He is not very "open" to new ideas though......  My new lad has never had hind shoes on (I've only had him 5 months) and is not 5 yet.  I don't want to hijack your thread so I might take some pictures at the weekend and start a new thread to get everyone' opinions.  You do look like you are doing well though which is very heartening.


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## Hetsmum (3 March 2016)

ester said:



			Amazing what they can do isn't it  Those side on pics from the start definitely make me cringe! 

Is there possibly something else going on higher up in that left fore, it would be interesting to see a whole leg pic from the front. We have a hind foot like that 

Hetsmum where abouts are you? No it isn't necessary that the angles match. What matters is that the hoof lands straight- many of the non matching angles/slight flares on one side you see actually enable the hoof to land straight. 
Frank wears the outside of his feet much more than the inside, I am told this is because of his knees . His hoof still lands and takes off straight. He isn't allowed to keep that deviation as it encourages his toe to run forwards too much and his breakover forward which doesn't help him.
		
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Hi Ester I am in the South East.  I will start a thread next week when I get the chance to take some pictures of his feet.  I believe he lands very evenly as he has had shoes off for 1 and half shoeings now and went 8 weeks after the shoes were off before a trim which only needed a lick with the rasp.  I though he wore his feet incredibly well.  Very level and he coped brilliantly even hacking immediately - even over stony ground!  I don't want to hijack so I will start new next week.  Thank you


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## ester (3 March 2016)

Lucy Priory might be pretty near you, never met her but she is lovely and knows her stuff . She used to post on here a fair bit too. 
Also I can point you in direction of barefoot forum and or fb groups 
It all sounds fab though


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## Shutterbug (10 September 2016)

Soooooo, its been a while and I wanted to update you guys on our progress and show you some encouraging photos - thought it might be good for anyone thinking of going barefoot to see these - he was never diagnosed with navicular for the record he was diagnosed with palmer heel pain and hasnt had a days lameness since the shoes came off.  I will let the photos speak for themselves and if anyone has any questions feel free to ask.  Currently workload is lots and lots of hacking and some schooling - hes being ridden 4/5 times a week after having 6 weeks off due to me being ill.  But we are back to work now.  We have been barefoot behind for a year and barefoot in front since February 2016

Front Left






Front right






Front left






Front right


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## ester (10 September 2016)

Well hello again, aren't they bloomin lovely!  They heel/bar situation really did start out pretty dire. 

Pleased?


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## Shutterbug (10 September 2016)

Pleased is an understatement Ester. It really was the best decision for him and it's been totally worth the tears and trauma of the last 6 months. His transition has been so horrible at times that I was sat I my car with my mobile phone in my hand crying tears of frustration and about to call my farrier and ask him to put shoes back on his fronts. It was heartbreaking to watch him go through the worst of it but I am glad I stuck with it, with the help of some Danolin and some time off he's really come through it. I am ecstatic


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## ester (10 September 2016)

Frank's had to have some time off/do less work recently and even though he is 5 years in it has demonstrated how they more he does the better!


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## ycbm (10 September 2016)

Stunning Shutterbug. Well done !!


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## FfionWinnie (10 September 2016)

Brilliant. When you look back and the starting pics it's no wonder the horse had hoof pain!  Great pics. Well done.

Have the two fronts evened up in size out of interest?


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## Shutterbug (10 September 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			Brilliant. When you look back and the starting pics it's no wonder the horse had hoof pain!  Great pics. Well done.

Have the two fronts evened up in size out of interest?
		
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Actually they have although they are still oddities to an extent but farrier said he was seeing dramatic changes in that small hoof and its getting there - possibly another 6 months before we see a full shaped hoof though - I do have pics I just didn't post them as didn't have time before leaving for work but I will post them tomorrow for you.


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## Shutterbug (10 September 2016)

Incidentally I decided to stay with my current farrier rather than go with a barefoot trimmer because he has horses of his own all of whom who are barefoot - which I found weird lol


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## PoppyAnderson (11 September 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Tildren is a good treatment for navicular, along with remedial shoeing if it proves that this is why your boy has. 
This is a really good fact sheet about Tildren.http://www.chilternequine.com/treatments/tildren/
Here is another one: http://www.tildren.com/en/Navicular-syndrome/Treatment

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Do not go down the remedial shoeing route. Quickest way to a permanently crippled horse. Barefoot Rockley route is by far and away your best bet.


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## ester (11 September 2016)

Did you see shutterbugs update pics PA? I think you'll be pleased


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## PoppyAnderson (11 September 2016)

ester said:



			Did you see shutterbugs update pics PA? I think you'll be pleased 

Click to expand...

I didn't. I'm guilty of not RTFT!!


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## PoppyAnderson (11 September 2016)

Read the full thing now. Amazing result and well done for persevering.


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## Goldenstar (12 September 2016)

Shutterbug said:



			Soooooo, its been a while and I wanted to update you guys on our progress and show you some encouraging photos - thought it might be good for anyone thinking of going barefoot to see these - he was never diagnosed with navicular for the record he was diagnosed with palmer heel pain and hasnt had a days lameness since the shoes came off.  I will let the photos speak for themselves and if anyone has any questions feel free to ask.  Currently workload is lots and lots of hacking and some schooling - hes being ridden 4/5 times a week after having 6 weeks off due to me being ill.  But we are back to work now.  We have been barefoot behind for a year and barefoot in front since February 2016

Front Left






Front right






Front left






Front right 





Click to expand...

It's fantastic isn't it ,its like magic when you see the new foot growing from the top and you click that we impose things like this happening to them and if you give them the chance they can put themselves right with no great cost , just time and and some effort .
Well done your


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## stencilface (12 September 2016)

Great news, lovely new feet, I bet he feels so much better in his whole body now.

Fab that your farrier is good too, says a lot that his are barefoot too. I think mine is too rasp happy, and my trimmer is great, even though he's never touched his feet


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