# Hunting accident(s)



## Missadelaide (12 October 2011)

Hi all,

I have been out hunting just twice on a green horse who had never hunted before. I had a really good couple of days hunting and on the 2nd time I hunted I was chatting to a lady and telling her that my mare had only hunted once and was being very well behaved with the hounds. Suddenly out of nowhere my mare kicked back and got the other lady's horse in the leg. I don't know whether she was kicking out at the other horse or whether she had something on her leg/tummy she was trying to get off. I was riding next to the other horse so not entirely sure how my mare got her. Anyways, the horse was quite lame but then seemed to walk it off. I apologised but explained the mare hadn't done it before but the lady was quite irate. The huntmaster said he didn't think it was my fault as we were riding side by side so therefore it's one of those things and he said she was perfectly aware of how close the two horses were.

Anyways, I had a call from the huntmaster to say the lady who's horse got kicked wanted to speak to me in regards to it. He says he has heard 3rd hand that the horse in question is fine and he feels I shouldn't have to cough up any £ as hunting is a risk sport and if she was worried she shouldn't have brought the horse out hunting, should have booted her horse up and shouldn't have been riding that close to somebody. He has suggested he gives her my email address which I said was fine.

My question is, has this ever happened to anybody? What is the correct protocol? I don't feel I would ask for the money if it was my horse as riding is a risk but don't want to do something that isn't right.

What normally happens in this situation?


----------



## irish_only (12 October 2011)

These things happen. Of course you are sorry, and probably mortified that your horse did this, and conveyed that to the lady. If you were on a known kicker that hadn't got a red ribbon on then she would have reason to be cross about it. But you weren't. Don't fall out about it but stand your ground with the facts that your horse was new to hunting and has never kicked before, you are terrbily sorry. Fullstop.


----------



## jessie7 (12 October 2011)

How awful  Do you hunt with them regularly? 
I wouldn't pay out anything though. If her horse were injured (badly) i would send a card or something but at the end of the day it is risky. If my horse got kicked I would be furious - but only because she is precious to me and in the cold light of day I wouldn't be angry- would be heat of the moment. 
I watch out constantly for other horses bottoms near me, that is the one thing I could not bare - my horse being injured hunting by being kicked. 
We went to visit another hunt last season and a horse swung round while I was riding parallel to it (not close) and kicked out. Was so pleased it got me and not my horse, I luckily was just bruised. Also a couple of seasons ago a friends daughter got airlifted to hospital as a horse kicked out, got her in the stomach and ruptured her spleen..............and the list goes on. So unfortunately s**t happens on the hunting field sometimes!

I would, however (if you haven't already) put a green or red ribbon in your horses tail if you take it again. That way if you see 'the victim' again they will see you have acknowledged that your horse did it.

Try not to let it put you off taking your horse out and fingers crossed it was just a bad one off


----------



## Missadelaide (12 October 2011)

Thank-you, I feel much better about it now.

I am anticipating a very angry email which is why the huntmaster thought an email would be better, as he said it happens but seeing as I have only hunted twice before I did wonder if there was some kind of protocol but glad to hear what I thought is about right.

Fingers crossed she won't actually bother and she should know better as she used to be the secretary for the neighbouring hunt.

I have decided to go with the red ribbon next time, just in case. At least I then can't be blamed for not doing something about it. I haven't subscribed to them as I can't afford to but the huntmaster was so lovely about it I will definately go out with them again.


----------



## Addicted to Hunting (12 October 2011)

Sorry to hear about that, my horse bucked/kicked out last year at the begining of the season and managed to catch our secretarys knee, horse was told off, I rang up the secretary that night as well to make sure that he was ok. For the rest of the season he wore a red ribbon, it was more off a buck and the secretary did agree, but with the red ribbon it was just a bit more off a warning as he would still do the odd buck. He did however get alot better and proves to be a very good hunter, and at least it wasn't a hound (sorry can't remember the actual quote for this). My horse was actually extremely good with hounds, felt safer with them all around than horses!!! Hope it is all sorted soon, think sometimes people just panic so much when something happens like that.y spotty pony was also kicked a few season backs, person aplogised, she was ok so nothing more was said, and that's when I didn't hunt so much!


----------



## VoR (12 October 2011)

Discipline the horse, apologise profusely to person/rider of horse kicked, wear a red ribbon in the future regardless of whether the horse seems to 'improve' and try to stay at the back and/or out of harms/temptations way.

At least that is what I do with the one I have that has kicked out in the past, albeit he's not raised a leg in two season, I won't take the risk. It really does make you feel lousy when it happens, but happen it does, after all it is quite natural for wild animals to fight among themselves and at the end of the day that is what we all sit on in a 'herd' when hunting...........we really must be mad!


----------



## PorkChop (12 October 2011)

Agree with other poster's - unfortunately this does happen out hunting, but don't let it put you off.

Just be extra careful next time.  As long as you always tell your horse off immediately and apologise there is not a lot else you can do, and maybe put a green or red ribbon in your horse's tail.

But ultimately I don't think you are liable for any monies that the lady may think you should pay.


----------



## Missadelaide (13 October 2011)

Thank you all for your replies, I will invest in a red ribbon just incase as I don't want it to ever happen again.

I won't let it put me off though as my green 5 year old loved it so much and so did I, most of the people seemed really nice and friendly too.


----------



## meesha (13 October 2011)

I have also only been out twice and my horse has had a pop at the hounds and at another horse (very minor ! sorry chancing ! ) - I apologised and pony and hounds were luckily ok.  I also took the horse seriously to task each time and I hope the message is getting through to him now.  When out for the first few times it is alot for a horse to take in so these things are probably more common than you think with newcomers.

I have just ordered some red electrical/insulation tape from ebay 99p ! apparently this stays in really well - tried a ribbon but it is a bugger to keep in.

I also tend to stay at the back out of harms way whenever possible and if need be move away slightly from the main group to give myself a bit of space.


----------



## Orangehorse (13 October 2011)

I feel for you, and the advice is good.  My mare kicked someone on a pleasure ride, they had got to the side so I could go past in a wood, and as I rode past she kicked out and got the rider on the ankle.  It was terrible and completely spoilt my ride.  I was very careful after that, but she had never done anything like it before.

It sounds as though thankfully the horse will be OK, but just as a matter of interest, what is considered the correct thing to do if the kick was much worse -and we hear of this after all - and the horse is badly (fatally?) injured or the rider has their leg broken.

What does the unfortunately owner of the guilty horse do then, particularly if the hrose has never kicked before and it was just one of those unforseen things?


----------



## jendie (13 October 2011)

These things happen and I think this woman is being mean. She knows you are new to hunting and probably thinks she can bully you into getting some £.

I'd remain perfectly polite, point out that horses are unpredictable and that hunting is always a risk, wish her horse well and say goodbye!


----------



## Amymay (13 October 2011)

These things happen - and if she comes after you for any money, tell her to go whistle.

Out of interest - how long is your mare's tail, and was it wet and muddy???

EDT:  Do not wear a read ribbon - but in a green one.


----------



## Addicted to Hunting (13 October 2011)

Yep this things def happen, mine fly bucked out at the end today as was had been holding her back looking after my mum the off the time so she got rather excited having a canter, luckily she didn't catch anything and the rider behind me understood, hopefully won't happen again.

Regards to attaching ribbon etc, yes tape does work and shows up fairly well, but another trick is to attach a bit of ribbon to a plaiting band, (double it thorough and loop if that makes sense) then do a little plait in the horses tail, attach the plaiting band with ribbon onto outside on the middle section then plait down, and then secure with another plaiting band at the end of the plait. This looks smart and used to stay in my horse all day. Sometimes the tape can pull hairs out.


----------



## VoR (13 October 2011)

JumpinBeckeyJane said:



			Regards to attaching ribbon etc, yes tape does work and shows up fairly well, but another trick is to attach a bit of ribbon to a plaiting band, (double it thorough and loop if that makes sense) then do a little plait in the horses tail, attach the plaiting band with ribbon onto outside on the middle section then plait down, and then secure with another plaiting band at the end of the plait. This looks smart and used to stay in my horse all day. Sometimes the tape can pull hairs out.
		
Click to expand...



Have used tape for three years without pulling out hair (at least no more than a good brush would do.......and hell it sounds easier to apply than plaiting in some ribbon!!


----------



## Herne (13 October 2011)

amymay said:



			EDT:  Do not wear a read ribbon - but in a green one.
		
Click to expand...

I would disagree with this.

Although local traditions may vary, in every hunt I've been with red ribbon means "This horse does kick" whereas green ribbon means "this horse is young/inexperienced and I don't know whether it might kick or not."

You do know that your horse may well kick, so go with the red.

If you want to let people know that the horse is young or inexperienced as well, then put in both, if you wish, but for a horse that has kicked on the hunting field, red is the right way to go.

When it hasn't kicked out for a season or so, then discuss with the Hunt Secretary whether it would be appropriate to stop wearing the ribbon.


----------



## Amymay (13 October 2011)

You do know that your horse may well kick, so go with the red.
		
Click to expand...

The horse isn't a kicker though - it has kicked once, under circumstances that aren't clear.

Putting in the red ribbon is a recipe for inviting litigation from the other woman.  And IMO if you have to wear a read ribbon in the tail, the horse shouldn't be huntnig......

This horse should only be wearing a grean ribbon - and should have from the start - as it 'may' kick, as you say.  But is not a confirmed kicker.


----------



## VoR (13 October 2011)

amymay said:



			1/.Putting in the red ribbon is a recipe for inviting litigation from the other woman.  2/.And IMO if you have to wear a read ribbon in the tail, the horse shouldn't be huntnig......

3/.This horse should only be wearing a grean ribbon - and should have from the start - as it 'may' kick, as you say.  But is not a confirmed kicker.
		
Click to expand...

1/. No it isn't, it is an acknowledgement that the horse has now kicked, not an admission that it was known to kick.
2/. That's harsh, I've hunted a horse that kicks for three seasons with one major incident (the first) since then he's not been a problem and has loved his hunting, why should he and I miss out due to one 'indiscretion'?
3/. Surely it HAS kicked so now IS a confirmed kicker regardless of the circumstances? If it doesn't have a red ribbon and kicks again THEN there may be possible 'litigation' for negligence.

IMO


----------



## Amymay (13 October 2011)

It think we'll all have to agree to disagree.......

Either way, would be fascinated to know the answer to my question about the tail...


----------



## VoR (13 October 2011)

amymay said:



			It think we'll all have to agree to disagree.......

Either way, would be fascinated to know the answer to my question about the tail...
		
Click to expand...

OK................................even though you are wrong!!  lol.


----------



## Amymay (13 October 2011)

VoR said:



			OK................................even though you are wrong!!  lol.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Addicted to Hunting (13 October 2011)

VoR I k ow it doesn't always pull hair out, I just find it can as as most people do it all around the dock I just don't think it can be that comfy for the horse to have sticky tape on skin. And interestingly I actually found it easier to do the plait and ribbon (left ribbon on the band all the time) than I do to tape. Different option anyway


----------



## Herne (13 October 2011)

amymay said:



			It think we'll all have to agree to disagree.......
		
Click to expand...

Missadelaide, the best thing to do, as is the case with nearly all of these questions, is to ring the Hunt Secretary, explain the sitaution and ask his/her advice and then follow that.


----------



## Amymay (13 October 2011)

Herne said:



			Missadelaide, the best thing to do, as is the case with nearly all of these questions, is to ring the Hunt Secretary, explain the sitaution and ask his/her advice and then follow that.
		
Click to expand...

You are, of course, absolutely right!


----------



## JenHunt (13 October 2011)

I would be putting a green ribbon in personally - yes she has kicked out, but no-one (inc OP) knows if this was a fluke, an effect of over-excitement, or what...

OP - I wouldn't let anyone bully you into paying out anything if the horse was not obviously injured at the time. 

If, for example, she came to you saying horse had to be PTS as a result of broken leg, I would be extremely doubtful if it had been ridden away! Even if it had needed stitches, I'd be inclined to avoid paying anything - she should know the risks of hunting, and the chances of any given horse kicking out! These things happen out hunting - I know a lot of horses kick at muddy tails, and occasionally get another horse by mistake. Don't let it put you off going again.


----------



## Missadelaide (13 October 2011)

It was a bit wet but not massively, it's so hard to know where to stand on these things but riding and hunting in particular are risky.

Here's hoping in the cold light of day she calms a little!


----------



## Amymay (13 October 2011)

Missadelaide said:



			It was a bit wet but not massively, it's so hard to know where to stand on these things but riding and hunting in particular are risky.

Here's hoping in the cold light of day she calms a little!
		
Click to expand...

Well, I'm sure she will - and if she doesn't it really isn't your problem.

Good tip for hunting tails is - short!


----------



## frostyfingers (13 October 2011)

What I hate is when you get people using your horse's backside as a stopping device - especially if you are in a single line - if you do that then you take your chance.  I've taken to putting my hand in the small of my back as an indication to beware.  My horse does not kick, but if someone barges in to him he humps his back and lifts both back feet a little as quite rightly he hates it.  I have had people say he should wear a ribbon for that, but my answer is if you don't crash into him, he won't kick.


----------



## PorkChop (13 October 2011)

Re the red/green ribbon debate - I sometimes feel that some people put a red ribbon in their horse's tail, and then merrily ride in the middle of everyone, expecting other's to keep out of their way.  When if fact it is their responsibility to keep their horse away from others whenever possible.

From what the OP has described I think a green ribbon would be more suitable, and obviously be careful around the other horse's, then re-assess in a few weeks time


----------



## BeckyCandy (13 October 2011)

Someone used my friends horses bum as a stopping device and he HAD a RED ribbon on! Needless to say the outcome wasn't very nice :S Kicked horse turned face to side and the horses face was hanging off  Not nice!! So i'd say red ribbon because you just don't know


----------



## Alec Swan (13 October 2011)

amymay said:



			.......

Putting in the red ribbon is a recipe for inviting litigation from the other woman.......
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry to say that this argument has some value,  I think.  20 plus years ago,  a red ribbon was a warning to others,  to keep away from the animals back end,  and the responsible rider of such a horse rode it accordingly.

In our modern world,  if you state,  by attaching the said ribbon,  that you are out on a horse,  which is known to be a danger to others,  then you are accepting a degree of responsibility.

I'll accept that it's a case of damned if you do etc..... and *NO* it isn't right,  but it's the way that it is.

Should we have insurance cover,  to protect others?  That's another question.  If you had such insurance,  and the insuring company asked if you were wearing a warning,  and you said that you were,  then again,  you're admitting liability,  which would almost certainly invalidate your insurance.

It seems to be a rather complex issue.  *BUT* in the case of the OP,  I suspect that as no harm was done to the other animal,  any claim against you would be pointless.  If the other rider tells you that their vet found nothing amiss,  then as there was patently no need to call a vet,  then the responsibility for the debt is hers.

I don't have any clear answers,  but will admit that it's worrying.

Alec.


----------



## Herne (13 October 2011)

The contrary opinion, of course, being that if you knowingly take an unsafe horse onto the hunting field and intentionally refuse follow the usual protocols for warning third parties, then, if someone else testifies that your horse has been known to kick*, you are likely to be considered to have deliberately and negligently endangered others by so doing.

People who go hunting could be held to have accepted the risk of being kicked, including the risk of riding near red ribbons, thus giving the owner the defense in tort of "Volenti Non Fit Injuria" (the willing canot be injured) which basically translates into "You saw the risk. You took it anyway. Tough luck".

However, if you have nefariously and deliberately failed to advertise that risk, then you would not be able to claim that defense.

Decisions, decisions...

*and you can pretty much bet your shirt that, if your horse has kicked one person and then kicks another, the first person will testify on behalf of the second.


----------



## Alec Swan (13 October 2011)

Herne,

I don't know why I'm laughing as I am,  because,  of course,  you also have a valid point!! 

As you say, _decisions_,  and even were a legal mind involved,  then they'd want paying for an opinion,  and one which all so well,  may not be as one with a judge!

Alec.


----------



## VoR (13 October 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Herne,

and even were a legal mind involved,  then they'd want paying for an opinion,  and one which all so well,  may not be as one with a judge!

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Unless you have a qualified solicitor in the family, that makes it a bit cheaper Alec!!


----------



## Orangehorse (13 October 2011)

My NFU insurance lady is married to a barrister and she says that the NFU vigorously defends any claim of this sort.  The NFU's stance is that a red/green ribbon is a WARNING and therefore other riders should take notice.  It is not an admission of guilt.


----------



## Roasted Chestnuts (13 October 2011)

Horses kick each other. In the field and under saddle.

If my guys kick in company they get a telling off BUT they have ribbons in their tails jsut as a precaution.

Eowyn went to 4 rideouts this year and only kicked out at the last one, but I spent the day yelling at people whose horses heads were over her butt and nearly at my back that she was in season and may kick, so the person who horse got lamped (well nearly) IMO deserved it as they were told NOT TO and she had a ribbon.

I wouldnt give out any money, you dont know if the horse hurt itself in the field at home afterwards and shes trying to get you to pay for it!!


----------



## Lizzie66 (14 October 2011)

If as you say she hunts regularly and is a former hunt secretary she will know the risks involved in hunting, hopefully she is just trying to contact you to apologise for over-reacting, especially if her horse is OK. 

Regarding the colour tape discuss it with your hunt secretary and let them advise you to what they think is best, and make sure it's head to hound when near them. Kicking a hound is not easily forgiven.


----------



## maggiesmum (14 October 2011)

Wasn't there something similar last year about wearing high viz that mentions young or inexperienced horses and/or riders and it being considered admitting that you were an accident waiting to happen?
Didn't the insurance companies make some kind of statement that it was cobblers and that it wasn't an admission of guilt? Or have I just made all that up?? 

The problem with law is that its all about interpretation but you go hunting you know the risks, I rode a horse for 2 seasons with a red ribbon as he'd kicked out once (before I got him) he never so much as lifted a foot in those 2 seasons but I made sure to warn people that got too close and stay well away from anyone who looked 'dangerous' 

I think you should be putting a red ribbon in as he's already kicked out, I found it easier to put tape around the dock although I did put something user the bit where it touches the skin. Get out there and enjoy yourself.


----------



## Missadelaide (16 October 2011)

Thanks for all the advice.

Well, the woman has contacted me to say that the horse has been on box rest and has had x-rays and she said that the horse had been out eventing with her daughter all season, which is odd as she told me she had only just bought it when I spoke to her on the day of the hunt.

I think I will just write back to say that having spoken to the huntmaster I have been advised that he suggests I should not be paying for this as it takes two to tango. She has accused me of being careless by allowing my horse to kick - how she gets that I do not know, since when do any of us have any control over whether our horses do kick or not!


----------



## jenbleep (16 October 2011)

Missadelaide said:



			She has accused me of being careless by allowing my horse to kick - how she gets that I do not know, since when do any of us have any control over whether our horses do kick or not!
		
Click to expand...

Doh, what a stupid comment! 

This is an intertesting thread, as I've only been out the once with a green ribbon but may change to red as C doesn't like people coming up too close behind her in the faster gaits - walk she is fine, and horses can push past her when standing no problem, she just gets a bit excited in trot, canter etc. Flattens her ears and humps a bit. 

I hope this hasn't put you off hunting!


----------



## Amymay (17 October 2011)

Missadelaide said:



			Thanks for all the advice.

Well, the woman has contacted me to say that the horse has been on box rest and has had x-rays and she said that the horse had been out eventing with her daughter all season, which is odd as she told me she had only just bought it when I spoke to her on the day of the hunt.

I think I will just write back to say that having spoken to the huntmaster I have been advised that he suggests I should not be paying for this as it takes two to tango. She has accused me of being careless by allowing my horse to kick - how she gets that I do not know, since when do any of us have any control over whether our horses do kick or not!
		
Click to expand...

I would actually be inclined not to respond to her.


----------



## TheresaW (17 October 2011)

Slightly different, but me and a friend went out on a fun ride yesterday escorted by the hunt.  It was great fun! 

My Mac got kicked, he was in front of me with my friend on him.  It was just one of those things.  The lady on the horse that kicked him was mortified as she said her horse had never kicked before.  I think he was just totally over excited.  Luckily Mac wasn't hurt, but even if he had have been, it was the risk we took taking him out.


----------



## Christmas Crumpet (17 October 2011)

Do not forget, by the way, that we are all supposed to be members of the Countryside Alliance if we go hunting - being a member covers us third party for incidents that might occur during the day i.e. kicking another horse, damaging a car etc. Very sensible to be a member as this situation proves. I think we are covered for quite a large amount in case of an incident occurring. 

Personally, I would do a bit of digging about this woman and said horse. If she starts hassling you etc, ask to speak to the vet and find out how much money she supposedly owes them for this incident and if she is actually telling the truth. You don't know her from Adam so how do you know if you can trust her? If she's telling the truth, she will have nothing to hide and will gladly let you talk to the vets. 

With regards the red/green ribbon question... if I were you and was going to go again, I would wear a red ribbon. It will be common knowledge by now that your horse kicked another horse and if it were to happen again, and you weren't wearing a ribbon then things could get very nasty. Far better to have a ribbon on warning people that your horse MIGHT kick so they will try and avoid using your horse's bum as a brake. My line of thinking is that if I see a horse with a red ribbon, I have been warned that it MIGHT kick out so will try and avoid it. If I crash into said horse's bottom and it kicks out, it is MY fault for crashing into it because I was warned that it may well kick out. If someone is out hunting on a known kicker and is riding right in the middle of the field then I would probably say something because kickers should be kept at the back or out  of the way. We have all been taught to turn our horses heads towards huntsmen and hounds to avoid kicking them as they go past. If you are riding a horse that kicks or might kick, you do have a responsibility to try and avoid trouble. 

I think there would be far more fuss if you were to take said horse out hunting again and not wear a ribbon - the horse may never kick again but you don't know that for sure and far better to warn people that it might. If you even have the slightest inkling that your horse might do something that you can warn others about, then for gods sake warn them - if their horse were to get a broken leg from being kicked by your horse that had already kicked another horse but wasn't wearing a ribbon in case it was a one off then the person who's horse had broken its leg would be very angry!!!

Let us know the outcome though - hope it goes in your favour. It will be interesting to see if woman is trying to pull a fast one or not.


----------

