# Empathy Collars



## Ezme (6 July 2008)

Rather than hijacking the other driving posts tonight thought i'd start a new one. 

So, empathy collars, love or loath? I don't know what to make of them having never of used them but I have been told by a very respected harness maker that their a load of cr*p as whenever you push into somthing it straightens so therefore if you use a collar with bends in it it will attempt to straighten hence the need for such a tight martingale. However i've read things with people claiming they work miracles. If the martingale is so tight does the girth have to be really tight too to stop it ended up in the horses armpits? Last comp I was at traditional breast collars way outnumberd empathy and seeing as harness has worked efficiantly since early 1800's why change it? But then again we had a horse who didn't have masses amount of room between point of shoulder and windpipe so maybe it would have benifitted him... thoughts?


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## rara007 (6 July 2008)

I love mine.

It simply does not try to straighten. It can not, its far to solid for that. Some of the cheap replicas might try to. Mine works fine with or with out the martingale attached.

The harness of the 1800 was mainly full collars- and these are too hard to fit properly for me 
	
	
		
		
	


	




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Another MAJOR point is that in the 1800's horses were not required, or expected to work from behind, free shoulder movement was not atall important.

Ginga, who used to be very stuffy infront, as he ploughs alomg on the forehand was free'er moving in it, and although no world beater got average scores for paces at the indoor nationals.

Pip has always gone well in his- and judges dressage comments always comment on how free through the shoulder he is.

Also empathy collars do take some fitting, and when fitted badly can be pretty bad.

May I use this as an excuse to show lots of pics


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## Ezme (6 July 2008)

Sure go for it! I was just on the site for them and there looks alot of pressure on the wither strap too, looks like the main collar is too short and pulling the strap forward.

i know coaching horses only every work in a full but their too costly now and on fit at full fitness and who now keeps their horse 100% fit all year round! Breast collars are only about 100-150 years old arn't they? I know people have tried to change harness, like the disaterous air collars of the 1900's but a full collar will always be best for pulling a heavy load. 

I'd like to havea  go with an empathy. Might ask mark if he has any next time i'm there seeing as he uses Zilco.


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## YorkshireLass (6 July 2008)

I would take the harness makers thoughts with a pinch of salt, they have a vested interest in people buying their stuff!  If things attempted to straighten when you pushed in to them 1, all our horses would be rubbed raw by trad colars, and 2, you would never get a full collar to fit as its shape would alter when the horse was in draft... and again, rub it raw.

Empathy collars don't suit all builds of horse or pony, but they are very good for those with large shoulders and/or animals with a deeply set on throat whereby there is very little room for the windpipe in a trad breast collar.

They are also very benificial for horses who have suffered shoulder injury caused by a straight breast collar.

Just as some styles of riding saddle suit certain conformation better than others,; it is the same with driving collars.

You don't need the martingale on tight at all.  I have never used it on tight, just so as it holds the collar at the correct angle.

I suspect that all the tightness you have seen is due to poorly fitted harness or a horse that is badly put to, ie, the whole combination.


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## rara007 (6 July 2008)

There is admittedly alot of pressure on the withers straps, but isnt that unfortunately the case with all breast collars and carriagees with low swingletrees?

Pip at sandringham







Ginga With Breast collar- Not great picture but you can see he is 'stilted'






And empathy- NOt great but free'er







Our team/pairs harness has lovely breast collars, but with normal breast collars it seems difficult to get the match between Thick so not to harsh on the pony, and too thick so coving points of shoulder and windpipe.


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## Ezme (6 July 2008)

when i said about things striaghtening i meant non solid, any breast collar is fairly soft by comparisons. I mean a full collar has hames and the forewale is pretty hard too. Twisted straw is pretty hard stuff. On the low swingle tree thing i've seen thats a problem with alot of modern vehicals. Anyone read the balenced draught article in carriage driving? Our current wagonette is too small but we are in the process of having a new one built which will concequently have higher swingletrees achieving the straight line with our traditional breast collars. Only a couple more years till the boys will be fully grown and we can get full collars... *sigh*

I gota admit pip looks a much better turnout than i've seen even on the promotional sites! I'll have to get in with a turnout who uses them to get a good look. 

I gota win the lottery and get myself a competition turnout. Well my own horse would be a start...


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## rara007 (6 July 2008)

That article was very interesting. 
The Empathy collars are pretty stiff really. Obviously not comapre to a full collar, but you can only just bend it laterally and no chance horizontaly.


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## jtriebs (7 July 2008)

We use an empathy collar on our boy and I think it sits much better on him than the traditional one. OH's driving instructor is quite an old fashioned type and even she admits that the newer version of the empathy collar really seems to work.
I also read the carriage driving magazine article with great interest but drawing the lines on one of our photos, I found that the empathy collar actually helps with the angles (with a modern/ 3 phase type vehicle).


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## Ezme (7 July 2008)

that would make sence, as we were saying modern vehicals tend to have very low swingletrees.


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## Donkeymad (7 July 2008)

I have to agree with the comment that you should maybe take this harness makers comments with a pinch of salt. I think that the empathy collar is a very good alternative to a standard breast collar and fits certain types much better. All breast collars seem to put a fair amounf of pressure on the area where the neck strap sits.
I looked at buying one myself but eventually decided to try a brollar (french collar) instead. I am very happy with that now.


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## fellpony (10 May 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Rather than hijacking the other driving posts tonight thought i'd start a new one. 

So, empathy collars, love or loath? I don't know what to make of them having never of used them but I have been told by a very respected harness maker that their a load of cr*p as whenever you push into somthing it straightens so therefore if you use a collar with bends in it it will attempt to straighten hence the need for such a tight martingale. However i've read things with people claiming they work miracles. If the martingale is so tight does the girth have to be really tight too to stop it ended up in the horses armpits? Last comp I was at traditional breast collars way outnumberd empathy and seeing as harness has worked efficiantly since early 1800's why change it? But then again we had a horse who didn't have masses amount of room between point of shoulder and windpipe so maybe it would have benifitted him... thoughts? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Your harnessmaker is right in principle. I tried making breast collars with a strong curve like the Empathy one, way back in the 1980s, but saw at once when I tested the prototype that a piece of leather cut as a strap with such strong curves would develop pressure points when you put tension on the ends of the strap. So I discarded the idea and never made it commercially -- although it looked like a good idea for improving shoulder freedom and draught angle, it was obviously going to be counterproductive when actually on the horse. I have never used one made by anyone else so can't comment on their efficiency in improving draught lines vs possible rubs on the inner edges of those curves over the shoulder bone.

I drive my present mare in a full collar. We manage with one for exercise and one for show. If you fit a full collar when the horse is in good condition (neither too fat nor too lean) it will fit for most of the year and be a guide to whether you are feeding too much or too little for the work you are doing  
	
	
		
		
	


	





PS I wrote the Balanced Draught article, so I am glad to read that others found it interesting. I didn't go on to discuss the Empathy, sweetheart and brollar patterns as those would have complicated the matter unnecessarily.


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