# Pics and vids for those who asked...



## kerilli (5 May 2012)

So, the pics are me and Flo a few days ago over little stuff, the vids are today playing around over very slightly bigger stuff. As you can see, those knees never totally come up into really safe territory...
Pics:
Teensy fences:










Slightly bigger X planks, showing how she does/n't fold up:




















I hope they're all resized properly, photobucket doesn't want to play tonight, argh.
Crit welcome pls, I have some terrible habits, and haven't jumped decent stuff for ages.
vids: first time through little grid:
http://youtu.be/xm04RX4IpS4
a few more small fences:
http://youtu.be/Yf4p8I5YhNY
spread, upright, bigger grid. (distances were a bit more forward than i expected, her stride's not as big as i thought it'd be and my cameraman gets sniffy about moving fences, and i wanted to keep him sweet, prob not the best move. it walked 11yards 11.25 yards, she makes it look like 12 yards.)
The next one is the first time I've jumped anything a bit bigger on her. I think it's quite interesting that the top of her jump is past the fence. This is typical apparently, she doesn't wrap herself around the fence... no lack of scope imho, but not really knowing how to use herself well? I have no idea how to make it go slow-mo on youtube but can on my Mac and that is very... enlightening!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rpsV_ChfXc&list=UUcmiEj3iErZ2_d7O9FB6RIA&index=1&feature=plcp
and, oopsy moment, the cause of the real concern:
http://youtu.be/tPH7PjR2bfY
(okay, i could definitely have ridden the canter better, more forward, i think i relaxed and thought 'this is nice' (= not enough!) but when i realised we were on a bit of a dodgy stride i thought 'let's just see what she does if i leave it to her to chip in or stand off' as the fence was so small, and just brought my shoulders up and did nothing. and you can see she actually makes less effort, not more, when left totally to her own devices... considering she's not a kiddo and has done a bit (quite a few Novices etc), i was quite surprised at the result.    i didn't pull to add one, btw. after that i rode the canter far more positively every time, which worked, but... oh well, I've explained all my musings about trying to improve her style and her thinking on the other thread. if i dominate the stride every time, it might be very messy when we're on a dodgy one... as here. good job that was small and fally-downy. she's done exactly the same to fixed N fences btw, this is nothing new.
lost of clever little exercises next I think...?
comments v v welcome, thanks.


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## Lolo (5 May 2012)

She's gorgeous  

What's she like on the lunge, sans rider?


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## kerilli (5 May 2012)

Lolo said:



			She's gorgeous  

What's she like on the lunge, sans rider?
		
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same as loose schooling, dreadful. does it badly, repeatedly...


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## Lolo (5 May 2012)

Ohh  No idea, I just hope that other clever people come up with ideas!

I know Reg went from being dangly like her to having properly snappy knees over a year, which was kick started by a session or 2 on the lunge being left totally alone because he suddenly had to think for himself and you could see him working stuff out...


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## kit279 (5 May 2012)

TBH, she looks like quite a big horse with a big front and I think one of the things about those big framed horses is that they need to take off further away from the fence in order to allow them time to get their front end off the ground, particularly if they're not naturally quick with their front legs.  Where she's deep to the fence, she looks like she knows she's not going to be fast enough and almost doesn't bother trying.  Whereas when she's put in a spot that she likes, she makes a big effort.  I'm not sure you'll necessarily improve her natural technique but she looks scopey enough and I think if well placed to a fence, she'll gain confidence.  Her best jump was over the big oxer to be honest and she may be one who will learn most from jumping sizeable things where she has to make an effort.  I think it would be quite revealing to put the fences up and ride her on a longer stride (hunting?!) to the fences and see what she does.


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## NR99 (5 May 2012)

K, my first thoughts looking at the earlier video was that you seemed to be doing a lot to help her.  Interesting that when it went wrong you were seeing how she responded and that was her reaction. :\ 

I'm intrigued that she got to novice with this issue, would her then rider have guided her all the time or would she have been encouraged to think for herself sometimes?  Sometimes with a home bred I find the owner if the rider can perhaps give too much support, so they don't develop that quick thinking independent streak that they might?

I know your mare was ace, im presuming her dads lines had efficient knees etc so there is no family trait?


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## amage (6 May 2012)

Based on the pics and vids an exercise I would try is a top of the wings X pole with a placing pole on both sides of it. pop it in trot and see does she use herself a bit better. You can shorten or lengthen the trot poles depending on how much more "bounce" you want from her but I find it great to get them using their shoulders better


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## SusieT (6 May 2012)

To be honest, I didn't see a lot of riding there, imo she really needs to be shortened up, held in front of the leg and between the hand and leg in a really bouncy canter before you're going to get any sort of a jump out of her. I also think you will find with bigger fences she will pic up more, but she strikes me as the type who will plow through rather than stop, which isn't ideal for eventing certainly! Presuming from your post she is a fair age, might be better to keep her for sj and dressgae if you're concerned about safety as she's got no excuse of youngster not knowing what to do. Is she fit? Have you tried loose jumping through a grid over substantial fences? 
I'd be doing lots of gridwork with short strides to get her paying attention-in the vids she is doing a lot of lolloping along on the forehand.


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## SusieT (6 May 2012)

If you look at the pics as well, you're probably further 'over' the fence than she is mentally in each pic-so need to adjust that I would say.


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## humblepie (6 May 2012)

Years since I jumped but I would agree with SusieT that you are further over the fence than she is and perhaps folding yourself too much for the size of fence which might not help her front.   I can remember being told off for that in the past.


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## ihatework (6 May 2012)

The main thing that strikes me is that you are riding in a forward seat and in virtually all of the pictures you are ahead of her, which won't help the shoulder lifting issue. I'm not convinced you will really change her style now and I agree with susieT that she needs to be ridden between hand and leg more. FWIW many years ago I had one who jumped in a similar style and one person I trained with was adamant the horse was ridden with the intention of the take of spot a foot further away than ideal, to give him the space and thinking time to get legs out of the way.


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## dieseldog (6 May 2012)

I think you need to work on her canter.  she is quite strung out and she has no options when she gets to a fence wrong, apart from what she is doing.


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## Bubbles (6 May 2012)

Her rider must be very brave to event at novice with those knees!! If the front limb action won't change, I'm guessing that its her adjustability that needs a hell of a lot of work. I think she'd benefit from loads of gridwork on very comfortable distances for her, and then gradually varying it so she doesn't always get her perfect spot but is still comfortable to jump from it. 
She looks to me like she needs the front end holding up.... eagerly awaiting a lesson report, be really interesting to know what a good trainer would do with her


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## be positive (6 May 2012)

If I just saw those photos and vid I would say green baby that has done very little, willing but fairly clueless and probably not overly scopey. How she has competed at novice level jumping this way I assume she is very honest and as you say more scopey than appears.

Her canter is rather flat and on the forehand but at this stage needs improving on the flat rather than when you are jumping.I would probably use plenty of poles on the ground putting some on the corners as well as on the straight. I would put more pressure on her when doing flatwork to really try and get her using herself doing loads of canter work with plenty of changes within the pace.

I think I would  go into grids out of trot using a placing pole, to try and get her sitting a bit more, using a fairly high x as the first part and ascending fences through it. possibly wider rather than higher to give her longer in the air. Bounces would be interesting to see.
Poles on the top of an oxer placed diagonally across can help get the shoulders up as can a v of poles to the centre of the fence but I would think most usual things have been used in the past so some new ideas probably required.

She is a lovely mare but going xc with those knees would give me serious concerns and I can see why you are banned for now.
Has she been seen by a physio regularly as there may be exercises to help that could be done on the ground, just lifting her legs up and stretching her daily could be useful, just a thought


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## Firewell (6 May 2012)

Now please choose to ignore me because I am rather rubbish but from a purely objective view, the canter to me looked a little bit sloppy... then her jump was a little bit sloppy. She just looked like she was coasting along a bit, like driving with the clutch down. She needs to look more punchy? I agree she jumped the bigger one better.
Maybe she is just too sweet and carefree to take it seriously? I don't know. I think horses do find their style themselves usually through making mistakes. After she knocked the planks did she pick up better next time?
With J (and the horses iv'e had before), I think they got so used to helping rubbish muggins here out of trouble that they learned how to shorten/lengthen and snap up themselves. I think maybe get the canter more together and punchy, sit up the last couple of strides, let her make her own mistakes and see if that helps?


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## LEC (6 May 2012)

My horse is slow in front and sometimes does not rotate his shoulders enough. He has to be held off and I have to work hard to keep my shoulders back. We did one session of trot pole to 3 x short one stride uprights which got bigger and it was hard work and they rattled a lot but they did get quicker in front.


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## LEC (6 May 2012)

Cannot edit on phone but my other thought is why are you jumping a careless horse in boots? Take them all off. I have taken boots off my horse as owner told me to and he does have better front end. You are also very forwards with your shoulders and over folding even over tiny fences. All the way round think about pushing your hips forwards.


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## Foxford (6 May 2012)

I think you've had some great advice already here, but I just wanted to add she looks like a really sweet mare and it's good to see you on board again!

If it were me, I would be wanting to take her to a few respected trainers who've seen it all and really getting to grips with this quickly. If this problem has been ongoing for a number of years you need to snap her out of it with some intensive help. Well that's what I'd do anyway. Good luck with her, she seems like a nice person if you know what I mean.


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## Rowreach (6 May 2012)

Probably exposing myself to much ridicule here, but I would not be looking to treat the symptoms, I'd be looking for the underlying cause.  To me she looks really stiff from poll to tail, and she is making you slightly crooked, which suggests a problem to me.  She looks like she is trying very hard not to overdo things in the air, and is obviously happier to hit a fence than use herself properly to clear it.  Has she ever fallen?


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## TPO (6 May 2012)

QR-Agree with Rowreach. She didn't look to be on 2 tracks to me.


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## kerilli (6 May 2012)

Thanks everyone, lots & lots of food for thought.
Re: me overfolding & being in front of the movement - argh, lifelong bad habits, and I wasn't concentrating on my position at all, and am very rusty. Will get back on it. Crit duly noted and totally accepted.  
(Tbh though, her former rider has a far more defensive position than me, never in front of the movement, and the mare's style was no better. that's not an excuse for me not to improve though!)
Kit - yes, i agree, i have big ground lines on every jump so she can't get in too close (incl the spread we hit), and i am trying very subtly to 'gap the fences' slightly (aim for a very-slightly-off-it spot, not a deep one... although i realise she NEEDS to be sharp/athletic enough to cope with a deep one too...)  i don't think i dare go on the hunting stride to them, since if she's really off the fence she will touch down again with either one or both front feet...
NR, interesting that you thought i was doing a lot to help her... i was trying to do as little as possible. hmmm. maybe still doing too much. 
(but then other people are saying i'm doing too little and that the canter is strung out and on the forehand. it doesn't feel on the forehand AT ALL, honestly, it feels light in front. interesting. more work required on it, definitely.)
NR, dad was good in front, no family trait either side. only thing is dad is CB x TB and that x with ID x TB dam is perhaps a contradictory mix... the stoicism of the CB + the devil-may-care of the ID actually encouraging the worst in both... (as in, 'i'll go for it, not give a ****, and if it goes wrong i'll not learn from it either' kind of thing...  but that's probably being very over-analytical about it!)
NR, she was encouraged to think for herself and as you can see it didn't always work...
amage, typical exercises like that big X don't work. i agree, that'd be my first port of call normally, but she's had them all, religiously, for years. they make her more anxious and WORSEN her style.    
SusieT, yes, 'not a lot of riding there' was what i was aiming at, trying to do as little as possible and leave her to work things out for herself. (I prob should have posted this on the end of the other thread rather than starting a new one, sorry. lots of explanations on there of what i'm attempting to do and why). I totally see your point about getting the canter really together etc etc but i guess i am trying to avoid dominating the stride that much iykwim. yes, she ploughs through rather than stop, apparently. as you say, maybe the answer will be to avoid xc...  shame, as she has the rest. yes, she's fit. loose jumping = worse. doesn't matter if fences big and fixed, still worse, and gets even worse if she makes a mistake.  
i'll shorten grid distances and try a bouncier canter and see how that improves things. thanks.
LEC, she's in boots because she's anxious, a worrier, not careless imho. i don't jump anxious horses with bare cannons, i want them protected, & if she was careless i'd totally agree.
Yes,  totally agree, Training Training Training is the way to go. Sorting it...
Rowreach, that's funny, because she feels soft through topline etc to work on the flat, BUT stiffens it up when she takes off. over a fence.. starts bascule then locks her neck and back straight, a bit, kind of thing (see big fence in slowmo i think).
she fell as a foal (tried to jump p&r between fields and didn't quite make it, iirc) and she had a full rotational last year xc.    
Thermal imaging and various other things booked, we'll see what they find...
thanks everyone. please keep it coming. interesting to hear so many different suggestions!


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## Glayva (6 May 2012)

i was at a tim stockdale demo recently and he was saying that young big horses need to jump bigger fences ( not all the time obviously) as they need to learn to lift up and over the fence. 

A big horse barely has to lift their legs to get over a fence of about 1m when you consider their belly is probably about 1m off the ground. So if they consistently jump small fences they get lazy with their front legs. 

He made a suggestion that when your horse dangles its front legs a good exercise is to use 2 poles in a V on the top rail, and get it jumping bigger fences so it physically learns what is needed.


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## GreyCoast (6 May 2012)

If she's a real worrier you probably don't want to try it, but has she done raised trot poles before? Just curious if she'd get the concept of snapping the legs without having to worry about jumping.

What a fascinating case!


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## Maia (6 May 2012)

TPO said:



			QR-Agree with Rowreach. She didn't look to be on 2 tracks to me.
		
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Not qualified to comment on the horse's way of going or riding as I am a useless numpty(!) but the first thing I noticed was that she carries her tail to the left... Could be absolutely nothing but may be food for thought.

She looks like a lovely mare and I hope you find the source of the problem, failing that, send her down to me for hacking and dressage


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## SpottedCat (6 May 2012)

I've got to be honest, I don't know how fair it is on her you doing not much if she's a worrier - you're setting her up to fail because as you've said she's not a green baby, and she hasn't come from somewhere that hasn't taught her right and allowed her to find her style as a youngster. You already know her natural style is to not rotate through the shoulder and snap up, so doing nothing just reinforces that doesn't it? Maybe I'm wrong! You've got people who know far more than me on the case!

Assuming nothing physical, it may be that she just has a very small window of canter that allows her to get off the floor and over the fences and no-one has found it yet. 

Have you tried really experimenting with her canter? What happens if you really razz her up so she is bouncing almost on the spot, so that if you watched a video you'd say it looks great but to look perfect the rider needs to quieten it down a notch? She's not her dam, so don't ride her like she is! You look over a fence on her like you almost think you're riding her dam.....(from the pics I've seen of you on her).


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## Bryndu (6 May 2012)

Hi 
Firstly may I say...lovely horse...but a lazy git! All meant to be in the nicest sense of the word..
My first impression...actually is she doesn't ping off her front end...and you won't like to hear this...because she is allowed to 
Ok here we go....and NONE of this is meant to be horrid...so please don't take it that way...I am offering advice...not destructive criticism...
The first thing I noticed in the vids....is that you are not stable in the saddle. Your lower leg flies around over the jump...and you come away from the saddle. Also you twist to the left in the air...so unbalancing the horse....
On the flat you are good.
The canter as most have commented is loose and flat...you are working like a Trojan...and she is a little bot 'whatever....'
The other thing that was a worry is that you didn't stop after the fences...and let her just  grind to a halt at the end of the arena.
Ok..advice bit.
Lots of canter to halt and halt to canter transitions...and then moving on....and coming back until she is really listening. ...praise her when she does it well...but say nothing when she does it badly.
When you jump the fence...as she then powers on regardless afterwards..... put a pole down about 15 feet from the landing side of the fence...but not in the line of the getaway...so to the side of the getaway line...end on...and after you have jumped the fence you MUST halt by the edge of the pole...in whatever way you can....it might not look pretty...but it needs to be achieved...loads of praise when she does it. You will then be back in control.
Once she stops and is listening after the fence and you are back in control...put up an upright with two side poles angled to touch in the middle of the upright pole.....with the ends out by the feet...so you are jumping the point of a triangle ...this will lift her shoulders.....
Get someone to watch your lower leg over the fence and keep reminding you to keep it against the horses side, push down into you stirrups, and fold from your hips. Think you want to put your chest on the horses mane.
I hope this all helps...because I dont see her as a lost cause
Good luck.
Bryndu


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## SusieT (6 May 2012)

The fact she's had a full rotational and is still happy to take fences on no matter how wrong and go through them to me is a concern. I personally wouldn't want to xc this horse but that's me.


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## Apercrumbie (6 May 2012)

I hate to say it but I don't think she should go xc again.  William Fox Pitt always says that he will never have a horse that leaves a leg (I know one of his did last year but it wasn't deemed to be a concern) as it just isn't safe.  The fact that she's had a full rotational with that technique just proves that she isn't safe xc and I'm not sure you will ever be able to trust her enough even if she improves.  IMO life is too short for that kind of risk when there are plenty of fantastic xc horses out there.  No reason you can't dressage and sj though.

I appreciate you're trying to make her relax and improve her technique but I don't think it will improve with such small fences.  She needs to be made to snap her knees up rather than canter over a little fence.  Over the larger fence at the end of the grid her knees come up much better as she has to try.  Exercise wise other people have suggested better ones than I can think of so I won't try there.


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## alwaysbroke (6 May 2012)

Lovely mare and a really interesting read, some very good advice.
The only thing I can think of is something we tried with a very large horse (over 18.2) who didn't seem to realise where his legs were was to let him jump a fence then a helper put a coat over it and changed the appearance of it, that really seemed to get a 'brain to legs to feet' message through and brought his legs up nicely. Another thing with the same horse, he doesn't respond well to jumping at home, the most he can do is twice over the same jump before he becomes very complacent and starts to run through them or just not bother, jump him off site round a course that he hasn't seen before and he gives most jumps alot of room.
Good luck with her.


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## Rowreach (6 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			she fell as a foal (tried to jump p&r between fields and didn't quite make it, iirc) and she had a full rotational last year xc.    
Thermal imaging and various other things booked, we'll see what they find...
thanks everyone. please keep it coming. interesting to hear so many different suggestions!
		
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Right, not surprised to hear she fell as a foal, and it also wouldn't surprise me if her way of going AND the fact she had a rotational is the result of this.  I'll put my neck on the line (which is what I'd do if I was seeing you in the flesh ) and say stop, find out what's wrong, and take it from there.

I know you say she feels soft on the flat but to me she looks wrong on the flat AND over a fence.


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## oldvic (6 May 2012)

She looks like she is bigger behind than in front with a slightly straight hind leg? She doesn't look that supple through her back and hind legs and is very on her forehand. Shoulder fore in canter, small circles pushing the inside hind under, moving canter on and back over short distances (probably on a circle) and leg yielding are all suggestions. A couple of exercises that might help are an smallish oxer with a placing pole. Walk on a long rein to about 8/9 ft from the pole then press her with your leg and hold the neckstrap. The idea is that she does a couple of short canter strides before the fence and jumps off her hocks. It might be that she does a couple of trot steps and 1 canter over the pole until she gets sharper.  It' s important she has complete freedom of her head and neck. The pole should be 8/9 ft to encourage them to stay bouncy and because you are going slowly. Also 2 low wide oxers on a shortish distance and then make them wider from the inside so you also shorten the distance. Keep the canter round from behind without worrying to much about the neck being round. There are plenty of others too which help but it's really about her athletic ability.


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## kerilli (6 May 2012)

Thanks everyone.
SC, i'm not exactly setting her up to fail, i was trying to be a helpful non-domineering passenger so SHE would own the fence and make a decision, because i'm not sure how much that has been tried with her before. but, the one time we were on a bit of a nothing stride, as our minor whoopsy at that tiny spread proved, she made a decision but then didn't really put much effort into it...  and most horses i've sat on, even green ones, would have made a better attempt than that. so, i learnt my lesson even if she didn't particularly! next time round i rode it differently and she jumped it much better. if i'd ridden her the same then yes, i would have been setting her up to fail, which isn't fair, i agree. (or, she might have learnt more. or hit it harder. or hurt herself. who knows?) i didn't have the nerve to ride it that badly again, put it that way!
Very good point about not riding her as if i'm riding her dam... i keep fighting the mental whiplash. she looks and feels so similar, until she comes off the floor (ish!) So, point taken. Thanks.
I am going to experiment with the bouncy short canter, that's next definitely. 
Bryndu, thanks, yes. I am horribly out of practice and need yelling at. Lower leg didn't use to be as bad as that, not quite sure what that's all about, will get on it. I saw I was twisting in the air and I'm pretty sure that's new, so that may be something she's making me do, maybe not. Will get myself checked.  I think I'm over-folding already so I'm not sure about 'put your chest on the horse's mane', I think 'shoulders up' is prob more what i need...?!
SusieT, Apercrumbie, sorry, but you must have missed the bit where I said that I am not going to take this horse xc until I can prove in pics and vids that her style has changed for the good, securely and reliably. If that doesn't happen, fine, there's a hunting home desperate for her. So, no pressure at all, and I can assure you I am not stupid enough to risk her neck and mine until her style changes, IF it can at this stage. 
Ok, toughening up and sharpening up on the canter. go stop go stop etc. i have been doing a bit but obv nothing like enough, or strictly enough. thankyou.  
Thanks alwaysbroke, good ideas and points.
Rowreach, yes, I see your point. Things are booked etc. Meanwhile I will keep playing around because she feels fine from on top, and we both need the practice, but if she feels wrong I will stop immediately of course. 
Ta everyone.
Thanks oldvic, much appreciated. Yes, straight hindleg, I'm not sure about bigger behind, she has a massive front too. I'll work much harder on the canter with those exercises, thankyou.  That pole-to-oxer exercise is the same as KatB suggested I think, I'll get that built now.


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## Bryndu (6 May 2012)

I think I'm over-folding already so I'm not sure about 'put your chest on the horse's mane', I think 'shoulders up' is prob more what i need...?!


LOL!
Re read what I wrote and I wasn't clear! Sorry!
I meant to say...keep your bum in the saddle..and fold from the hips so your chest touches her mane...atm you are 'flinging' yourself up her neck as if it is the puissance wall  I do appreciate the lack of practice making it a little hard for you..

Re the stressy attitude as well (hers not yours.. ) she may well be stressing because as you try to change things...she has a toys out of the pram moment...as 'I has never been asked to do it that way before...so why should I' attitude....you may have to be a little firmer with the young lady....
You are doing a great job...by the way...
Bryndu


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## Pidgeon (6 May 2012)

Won't comment on your position as others have and you know what needs work on. 
As to the horse, if you look at the stills she is very very straight through the back in all of them, the neck does give a little but not as much as I would expect even when you put the fence up a bit. Her hindlegs are not always a pair on take off, sometimes quite out, so perhaps something may not be right with her back/and hind legs? however when the fence goes up a bit her front legs do come up more than the dangly ones we see over the smaller fences, so perhaps she is just complacent over the smaller fences.
FWIW I think your doing the right thing in getting her checked out as I'd be quite surprised if she was 100% IMO. Also you may just have to accept she has no concept of jumping for herself and has to be placed on the spot to jump ok, some horses are just like that. 
Agree with others who have said she looks a tad strung out, can you rev the pace up a bit and then contain the energy and see what happens? 
Hope you get to the bottom of it as she does look like an honest horse.


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## MrsMozart (6 May 2012)

I'm not an expert in anything equine, so feel free to ignore my ramblings, but to my uneducated but sadly seen too many backend lamenesses, she doesn't look quite right behind. The downwards transitions (canter to trot) have a little sort of skip moment/movement in them.

As I said, feel free to ignore!

Just out of interest, and again with the feeling free to ignore bit, but why does this lass have to go cross-country/jump? It doesn't seem to be her forte.


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## kerilli (6 May 2012)

ha, thanks Bryndu, that makes more sense. the trouble is, when i concentrate on myself, my eye for a stride goes out of the window. must. try. harder.  in the just-at-take-off pics i look okay, not sure why i'm chucking myself forward once she's left the ground... hmm.   i don't think i'm doing a particularly good job yet, but i'm open to anything that might help her. i have no ego at all when it comes to horsemanship, fortunately!    
tbh she doesn't get stressy and reactionary, she doesn't do anything bad... she tightens in herself... she internalises it all. does that make sense? maybe that's the CB in her. i'll try making her work a lot harder this afternoon and see how it goes.
thanks Pidge, sometimes her hindlegs aren't together on take-off, i agree, (which is because of the not-together-enough-canter, i think) but strangely when they're not, her front end technique is often better, which makes little sense... ?!?!

it's so tricky, i can absolutely see the sense of doing everything over small fences, BUT not if she doesn't bother jumping properly because they're small! argh!

MrsM, when i ride a forward canter to trot trans, i think they're fine, i was trying to get her to stop faster (a sort of wussy version of what Bryndu recommended up there) and hence she was propping a bit behind, i think. 
As for xc... well, it's what her owner wants to do, it's what the mare was bred to do (both parents 3*), and it's what i want to do. if she wasn't her mother's daughter i wouldn't even try with her, to put it bluntly, but it is worth a try i think... not xc yet, but an attempt to alter her style if possible. but, if it's not what suits her as a career, there's another one waiting...


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## Pidgeon (6 May 2012)

Have you tried her over a bigger fence?


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## Rowreach (6 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			when i ride a forward canter to trot trans, i think they're fine, ...
		
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Have a look at the downward transition towards the end of the third video.  Also, in the same video, when you are going down the long side away from the camera (past the plank spread).


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## floradora09 (6 May 2012)

You're about a billion times more experienced than me, so feel free to ignore my advice  - but what happens if you try a grid? You could make it easy for her to hit the right spot, and put a bounce or something in maybe to see if she picks up in front more then? Perhaps this way you could get her using herself more but at the same time leaving her to it, as it'd all be set up for her and she'd just meet them right?


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## TiddlyPups (6 May 2012)

I watched the videos before reading your post and genuinely, genuinely thought she was a baby - I would never have guessed she's been Novice and if looking at a horse to go Novice on she wouldn't appear on my radar.

Having read your post it does strike me as odd you would jump her in this lumbering, lacklustre canter as I can't understand how that is going to improve her confidence when she doesn't look like she has enough power to jump 2ft? The world's scopiest horse needs power to utilise the scope it has.

If I was you I would be working on getting a good powerful, punchy canter so that she can trust herself with the fact she has enough power to jump comfortably from any stride and not be having to "drag" herself over the fences.


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## cruzing (6 May 2012)

No CC from me as think it has all been covered. My concern is that if you improve her technique to where she is secure and reliable enough to XC, there is always a chance of her reverting back when she is worried or stressed.


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## Bearskin (6 May 2012)

Her style reminds me of "The Irishman" and he did ok!

I would work on the elasticity/power/adjustability/suppleness of the canter.  If you can improve the canter the jumping style may improve.  Perhaps you could also use a grid of 3 uprights set on shortish one stride distances, building up to about 3'6"; ride the first to a good spot and then leave her alone to look after you both for the second two. It should tell you if she has the ability to shorten and be quicker in front.

I think we need weeekly video updates so we can watch the progress and see if any of our advice has been useful....


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## racingdemon (6 May 2012)

Really really interesting to see the vids, 

I would say much more power, but don't make the canter too short yet, I think for now she needs the confidence from jumping off a slightly longer (but powerfu) stride, 

FYI, I had a mare years ago that had a number of rotational & near rotational falls out hunting, (not with me) she had been allowed to go along in a loose stretched out canter, basically coasting, and was as stubborn as the day is long (scallywag mare) she was huge, big and bholsy (TB, but v old fashioned stamp) she took A HUGE amount of riding, getting a really powerful canter, keeping a decent stride length so she didn't get tempted to chip one in, and she never fell again,  (although to be fair she didn't event at a very high level, but i could trust her) lots & lots & lots of canter - walk- canter, loads of grids, and being a bit braver to get the big powerful stride, From the vids I would say you look a bit in neutral (I know why  but I'd be really interested to see what she was like if you really turned on the turbo) 

I'm also still really interested that she's good out hunting, because you can still have a nasty rotational over a hedge if they don't pick up, ( like the mare above)  so somewhere in her head there must be a switch?? Perhaps it's that power thing?? 

Keep the updates coming, very interesting!!


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## freyaandrogue (6 May 2012)

hi, im more of a lurker than a poster but i thought i would add a little something as she reminds me of a horse i used to ride, bend her legs at the knees rather than really tucking up.
With her it was a case of really doing your homework at home to keep on top of her technique. We did a lot of work and creating a lovely bouncy uphill canter that really punched the floor. I also agree with the taking off slightly further away theory, as gives more time for legs to get out of the way.
V-poles were a brilliant exercise, as is the pole-jump-pole that has already been suggested.
We also tried, and im not sure wether you will want to try it or not, to put a little market harborough or standing martingale on her, as if she stayed rounder over the fence, her shoulders came up more and the shape of the jump was much better.
As for you, you are getting her to the fences nicely but i do agree that this particular horse may benefit from a slightly more leg to hand approach, with you sitting up and pushing her forward into a good contact (think more showjumper than xc lol). the mare i rode also liked to jump into a good contact, so on take off i didnt completely drop my reins and say go, I kind of gently helped to pick her up off the floor if that makes sense?
I hope you find some of this useful but feel free to ignore anything you might think is rubbish  good luck i hope she comes good for you.

eta. lots of bounce work too!


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## Jingleballs (6 May 2012)

There is already a load of good advice on here and I'm not really experienced enough to comment but I also have a horse that can be a bit lazy with his front legs and doesn't always pick up well.

I had a lesson with my RC instructor and he did this and she said he wasn't using his shoulders correctly to pick up over the jump.  She put up a small straight and asked me to walk him into it and ask him to jump it a few times from walk.  Then she put it up a bit and we repeated the exercise again in walk and then in trot.  He was a million times better after this and although I've not had to use this exercise since it's a good tool to have if we hit these problems again!


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## kerilli (6 May 2012)

Rowreach said:



			Have a look at the downward transition towards the end of the third video.  Also, in the same video, when you are going down the long side away from the camera (past the plank spread).
		
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Having watched it again, going down the long side past the plank spread, she steps half on the sleeper edging, that's why she takes a mis-step, I felt it at the time. The downwards transition at the end... hmmm, a bit 'hitchy' with off hind? Is that what you mean? I'll get her checked.



TiddlyPups said:



			Having read your post it does strike me as odd you would jump her in this lumbering, lacklustre canter as I can't understand how that is going to improve her confidence when she doesn't look like she has enough power to jump 2ft? The world's scopiest horse needs power to utilise the scope it has.
		
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Oh dear. Did you bother to read my previous post describing her history, in detail? This thread was a follow-on for those who had asked to see pics and vid. In the other post I explained that the usual methods really haven't worked with this one, and so I had specific reasons for trying what i was trying in the vids. They were small fences and I really don't think 2' high is an effort for most horses! 

cruzing, yes, absolutely, i am keeping that firmly in mind. 
Babybear, she has done a LOT of jumping from walk already. (ditto high X poles, V poles, tight distances, low wide parallels on short distances...)
racingdemon, that's interesting, hmm. yes, i can see that working actually... at least until the point we're on a real misser... which can always happen, you only need a slip or a trip. but, that's an interesting parallel. ta. 
freyaandrogue, all duly noted, thanks. 

Today's little efforts:
tiny bounce distance poles: http://youtu.be/6ULnRLFeM9c
she did it perfectly once but, typically, that was before my cameraman got there...  btw, you can hear our pet crow's opinion of the fact that she kicks the last pole (he was sitting on OH's shoulder) and OH trying to shush him. 
place pole to teensy parallel: http://youtu.be/tPW1W_nTreU  waiting and getting the idea? will work up to bigger parallel...
grid, shorter distances, then upright: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-V_DWKB-Rg&feature=youtu.be
marginal improvement maybe, but i noticed that she didn't want to land on right lead after the grid... hmmmm. no more jumpies till checked out. 
comments, as always, welcome! thanks.


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## Rowreach (6 May 2012)

No I didn't mean when she stepped on the board, I meant that she's stiff and crooked and making you stiff and crooked.


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## kerilli (6 May 2012)

Rowreach said:



			No I didn't mean when she stepped on the board, I meant that she's stiff and crooked and making you stiff and crooked.
		
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ah okay, i see. hmm.  i have never been crooked in midair before so i think you have a definite point. will be checking her out thoroughly. thankyou. really appreciate it.


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## Rowreach (6 May 2012)

Very interested to hear the outcome


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## Lyle (6 May 2012)

I want a crow hehe...

She looked quite nice over the verticle in the last video  I like the walking into the fence, I've do a bit of that in my schooling. It's suprisingly useful, gets them thinking about their take-off power and actually can help with confidence a bit too. 

She reminds me of my last TB. Because he was a little loose he had to overjump, but luckily he had oodles of scope and learnt to be very fast off the ground. Probably because I can be fairly useless so would place him awfully and he learnt to sort himself out! He did start to really snap the legs up, he was fairly abusive on his stud guard. 

You absolutely seem on the right track and the mare is lovely, definitely working out what makes her tick (or is that tuck?)


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## Santa_Claus (6 May 2012)

finally had chance to watch all the videos. If I'm honest she looks 'blocked' behind the saddle which to me looks like that's preventing or contributing to preventing her from putting her weight on to her hocks. Its all very downhill at the moment and the front end just isn't getting a chance to come up. 

I know you are allowing her to go along longer to let her take ownership but would be interested to see if she is actually capable of a more collected canter, not necessarily dressage round through her neck but actually taking the weight behind.

When you sit up over the fence her technique is marginally better so although over folding is not assisting her it is by no means the cause.

Following on would get her a once over to see if there is tightness behind the saddle and whether that is saddle or back or other caused. Seeing as she has always had such a technique my slightly way off theory would be that she had an accident/injury when young causing a stiffness behind which has never been truly corrected and she now struggles to put weight behind and therefore is always slightly on the forehand and as a big horse this doesn't give her chance to pick up comfortably. You know she can pick up as comments re owl holes etc but for those fences she perhaps pushes herself that bit more.

As said perhaps OTT and as not seen any vids of her in a more collected frame I could be completely off the mark.


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## coss (6 May 2012)

you've done a high sided cross - what about a parallel/cross thing - so two crosses put one behind the other to create a spread but both being a cross? got the mare i ride more up in the air and she's done a fair amount of showjumping when younger. I also get infront of the movement so correcting me helped but know that's not really the issue with yours!
i'd also be interested in what she'd make of bounce grids - maybe shorter rather than longer so as to engage the backend more?


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## siennamum (7 May 2012)

My SJ trainer did a brilliant excercise with me to improve the shape. A set of single fences, small course, with lots of turns and loops. Each fence has a placing pole, then you create an A frame on the floor, with 2 poles from the edges of the placing pole into an apex at the front of the fence on the ground. Really makes them sit and use their shoulders.

Haven't any comment on the vids, thought she looked really sweet, fingers crossed you can sort it and have some better horsey luck.


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## Starbucks (7 May 2012)

Well i'm actually quite shocked.  I actually respected you on here but... not so much now!

In your words.. There's a lot needs to be improved here!!

There is a complete difference in placing a horse into a fence and having a crap, loloppy canter!  Honestly, you've been round 3*??????


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## 3Beasties (7 May 2012)

Starbucks said:



			Well i'm actually quite shocked.  I actually respected you on here but... not so much now!

In your words.. There's a lot needs to be improved here!!

There is a complete difference in placing a horse into a fence and having a crap, loloppy canter!  Honestly, you've been round 3*??????
		
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## kerilli (7 May 2012)

Starbucks said:



			Well i'm actually quite shocked.  I actually respected you on here but... not so much now!

In your words.. There's a lot needs to be improved here!!

There is a complete difference in placing a horse into a fence and having a crap, loloppy canter!  Honestly, you've been round 3*??????
		
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Ouch! Erm... as said above and on the orginal thread, this mare has a very specific history and I was trying various things out over very small fences. Warts and all and all that. Yes, I admit I saw no stride to that tiny oxer and I left her to it to see how she coped. Her reaction (or lack of it) told me a lot. This mare is (or should be) pretty experienced. Worse things happen xc at times (as we all know) and I'd rather find out at home over a small sj.
I admit I am horribly out of practice and I have had a stern word with myself and sharpened things up after seeing the vids and taking on board the many helpful comments. 
Yes, I have been round 3*. Admittedly, that was a while back! We had a great round and were absolutely flying, and were bang on the clock 3 from home when we slipped over going round a corner (under-studded, my choice due to the hard ground, my fault). So, finished clear but with loads of time faults. I also got Advanced placings on that horse, would have won at Savernake but for a SJ down. *shrugs* I've never claimed to ride like Pippa Funnell, have always been very open about my faults.
Oh, and I am going to get her checked out fully because although she feels okay (not spectacular, admittedly, but okay) it may well be that there's a physical reason for her problems.


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## Bryndu (7 May 2012)

GIRL...you is askin' ...but you ain't listenin'......and you ain't doin'...

Where was the stopping after the fence? ...You is runnin' along all floppy like after the jump....

BTW...the spread fence?.....she is making a much better shape...well done...

Bryndu


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## kerilli (7 May 2012)

Bryndu said:



			GIRL...you is askin' ...but you ain't listenin'......and you ain't doin'...

Where was the stopping after the fence? ...You is runnin' along all floppy like after the jump....

BTW...the spread fence?.....she is making a much better shape...well done...

Bryndu
		
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Ha, I'd already done the sharp stoppity thing quite a few times before my fairly-unwilling cameraman got there...! Okay, point taken, even more strictness required. I thought she did a nice canter to walk, not against the hand at all, after the upright? not good enough... ??
She made a better shape over the spread, yes, ta.


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## KatB (7 May 2012)

Ok, I know you've had a lot of responses so far, but here is my two penneth worth!

Yes, she is relatively experienced, but is also quite scopey so has probably never needed to change what she does, to get round in a way shes happy with, as horses don't have the same ideals as us, and she doesnt look terribly educated in her way of going, which suggests shes been allowed to let her scope take her up the levels until her lack of tools has caught her out so to speak!

Now, in my humble opinion, letting her slop along will only demonstrate what you already know. She needs to be educated to make her more aware, THEN you can test her a bit more by giving her a bit more ownership.

I personally dont think there is much wrong with her except shes a bit rigid in her way of going. Id want to see a LOT of work to make her more supple and athletic. Lots of flexion, lateral work, tonnes of transitions to get her infront of the leg, engaged and in self carriage. Raised poles, bounces of poles raised at alternate ends (remember Tim Stockdale??) to get her looser through her body, and lots of fences with placing poles to pulled out ground lines to give her room to get her shoulders up and making a rounder, more supple shape. Tiny fences wont make a scopey horse jump, so lots of gymnastic work will be your best bet.


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## FrecklesMum (7 May 2012)

Forgive me, haven't read all of the thread from start to finish but have you had her back scanned?

She is jumping exactly how my boy did - very genuine but constantly looking for me to set stride up and never tucking up in front - did exactly the same from a 2'3 fence to a 3'9 fence. It became scary how he would just suddenly appear not to 'try'. 

Turns out he had very bad kissing spines and he was struggling. I would point out he never had a XC fault only became apparent in the SJ when he really had to crack his back and use himself. 

Not trying to scare you but may be worth the price of a X-ray?


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## TiddlyPups (7 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			Oh dear. Did you bother to read my previous post describing her history, in detail? This thread was a follow-on for those who had asked to see pics and vid. In the other post I explained that the usual methods really haven't worked with this one, and so I had specific reasons for trying what i was trying in the vids. They were small fences and I really don't think 2' high is an effort for most horses!
		
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Yes I did bother to read it.

What I'm trying to say is, she is making the 2ft jumps look incredibly hard work and really shouldn't be and if this lolloping around turns out to be the perfect method for her have fun trying to jump over 3ft...


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## FrecklesMum (7 May 2012)

TiddlyPups said:



			Yes I did bother to read it.

What I'm trying to say is, she is making the 2ft jumps look incredibly hard work and really shouldn't be and if this lolloping around turns out to be the perfect method for her have fun trying to jump over 3ft... 

Click to expand...

My mother always told me if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. 

I suggest you try this. Your last comment was clearly not helpful, constructive or kindly meant.


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## oldvic (7 May 2012)

It's good to get her checked out. It can be hard to differentiate between a physical problem and a schooling problem. 
If she is ok to carry on then try to build the walk exercise up to the height of the oxer out of the line. The small one is fine to give her the idea but is not enough to be productive. You need a longer rein for this exercise and to keep your upper body more upright so you don't get up her neck. 
I also wonder if your knowledge of her past has a slightly negative effect on how you ride her - maybe it's interferring with your sense of feel? However it's very easy for everyone to be critical from the comfort of their armchair, safe in the knowledge that they are never going to be put on the spot and have to show us how to do it and, in some cases, make rude and uncalled for remarks. Maybe, when you start her again, think of her as more of a blank canvas and ride accordingly.
One question I have from the 1st day. When you left her alone and she made a mistake, wouldn't it have been better to ride the same the next time to see what she did and also so you didn't move the goalposts? It's not like it's wrong not to place her or see a stride.


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## JDChaser (7 May 2012)

I hate to say this but her movement behind makes me think she could have kissing spines. She's just not right. I would be getting her back checked asap. 

And Kerilli - you are a lovey rider, don't listen to the circling vultures on here


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## kerilli (7 May 2012)

FrecklesMum, thanks, that's a good point. I had one with KS once and he was a real bucker which she isn't, but she's a stoic sort, so I think you could have a very good point there. 
KatB... she is educated, honestly. 
It's quite hard to convey... she felt as if she was rushing along before, in all paces, pulling herself along with front legs and so on the forehand. Busy busy busy going somewhere, but in the wrong way. So, I calmed her down and persuaded her to switch off, got her to WAIT a lot more (probably far too much, I now suspect) and feel off the forehand (obv it doesn't look how it feels, however... lesson learnt) and then tried to put some power in that new lighter-in-front balance. Again, feel vs look of it...
TiddlyPups, thank you so much for your oh-so-generous and helpful advice, I will treasure it forever.   
Yes, oldvic, I think my knowledge of what hasn't worked in the past (albeit with a very different rider) is really clouding my judgement and affecting my sense of feel. 
I did think afterwards that I should have just left her totally alone again but I felt so guilty because she'd hit it from what was, admittedly, not just a rubbish spot but also a pretty rubbish canter... I rode the canter better next time and then, of course, the spot was better too. But, she does need to learn to have better instincts/reactions, if possible, I believe... especially if she's ever going near another fixed fence!
Yes, blank canvas is right, then I'll try the usual things I'd try (and that have been suggested) and see how we go. Thankyou, very sage advice, totally taken on board. 
Yes, small parallel definitely needs to be bigger, will do. Unfortunately my cameraman (hampered by opinionated pet crow) doesn't much like changing the height of the fences, more bribery required!
Thanks everyone.



JDChaser said:



			I hate to say this but her movement behind makes me think she could have kissing spines. She's just not right. I would be getting her back checked asap. 
And Kerilli - you are a lovey rider, don't listen to the circling vultures on here 

Click to expand...

Will do, ta.
Ha, no, thanks, but I know I'm probably much too soft on the horses if there's nobody here shouting at me, and I haven't had that for far too long. Also I have gotten very sloppy, and it showed. More work requd...


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## KatB (7 May 2012)

Hm, in which case I would get her back checked. Id expect her to be in much better balance with good education and nothing wrong, unless its just remembered soreness somewhere! Is she lazy?


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## oldvic (7 May 2012)

KatB said:



			Hm, in which case I would get her back checked. Id expect her to be in much better balance with good education and nothing wrong, unless its just remembered soreness somewhere! Is she lazy?
		
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Some horses find it hard to balance regardless of education through challenging conformation,  lack of conscience, tension, physical stiffness, big movement, natural energy, etc.


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## KatB (7 May 2012)

oh yes I agree completely, but am keeping on the theory that K believes there is more to this mare than shes giving, so considering her as a genrally promising horse thats not fulfilling that promise. Obviously there is the possibility the mare will never change regardless, and therefore needs a change in direction which has already been pencilled in as a final resort.


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## dafthoss (7 May 2012)

Sorry had to comment, you have a pet crow!?!  thats awesome! I had to watch the first video again just to hear the crow. 

I'd say from my, admitedly fairly rubbish, view she looks better in the second set of videos than the first and that last fence looks better than the rest. Would be intrested to see if any physical issues are found and how she responds to all the exercises.


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## alesea (7 May 2012)

I think I'm another who'd be interested if you pulled up any physical issues with her. To me she looks a little bit like 2 different horses atm; strong (and fairly chunky) in front but with a back-end that doesn't match. Some of the videos also left me wondering if she was 100% sound behind as to my eyes her action was a bit odd at times, and she looked a little like she was trailing her left hind at points? Having said that, I could well be seeing things; the perils of coming off an orthopaedics rotation is that you begin to see lamenesses in everything (whether they have them or not). I'd be interested to see typical 'lameness work-up' type videos of her though.

As you've said, she just doesn't use herself the way she should at that level of experience. Yes, the canter wasn't good, but I've seen much worse horses left to their own devices clear jumps that height with absolutely no problem.


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## only_me (7 May 2012)

FliP kerilli you've had a some bashing!! Personally I think you are a good rider and there are a lot worse on here!! 
How is she over a bigger fence - does she respect them more or the same as the small heights?
IMO from the vid she looks stiff over her back - lines of grids/bounces and lateral work to see if that will supple her up. 

But again that is only from my limited experience - I don't profess to be a expert in anything - except maybe on having poles down


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## Apercrumbie (8 May 2012)

Wow there have been some horrible comments!  Hugely unnecessary and very unhelpful too so ignore them Kerilli!

She looks much better in the second set of videos, particularly when jumping the course where she looks much more forward and keen.  I'm still concerned by her lack of instinct but that may be a physical cause.  Do you feel she wants to do it?  This is possibly unrelated to a physical question but do you feel she really enjoys jumping?  Is she similarly enthusiastic on the flat?  I'm just trying to get what she likes doing and if that is related to her technique.


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## ScampiBigMan (8 May 2012)

Hi K,
    Like that she keeps coming & giving it a go!  She reminds me a little of my grey mare who has been an enigma to me most of her life.  We seem to be making progress now (she is 13!).  The key (for SJ) has been to really work on her being connected, work to strengthen her behind & really build the impulsion after every fence so can sit quietly into the next fence. Then her technique is better & she uses herself well. Naturally, you need to do your physical checks first.  Have sent you more info by pm which may or may not be useful!

H


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## Circe (8 May 2012)

Feel free to ignor me, I'm not an expert on jumping...
I'm wondering if its normal for a horse to prefer going through the fence rather than either jumping or refusing or running out? that fence she had down, she didn't make any effort at all.
OP you are certainly experienced enough to_ feel  _ what she is doing.
Is she keen to jump? Does she feel like she is straight etc. Other jumps on the video she looks nice and neat, but the fence she went through really concerns me.  I totally agree that she should be able to sort her own feet out, I'd expect a green horse to clear that fence ( might not look pretty, but get over it ).
I'm not very good at expressing myself, but even my tb ( with useless at jumping me on board ) will make an effort to get over a fence that size.
I also feel strongly that if you are suddenly finding yourself crooked over fences, and you are otherwise ok, then that is a really strong indicator that she is crooked.
How is her flatwork, are there any problems with lateral work with her?    
Kx


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## Festive_Felicitations (8 May 2012)

I've been following this thread and the original with interest - mainly from an academic point of view - as I'm interested to see how you could go about changing a horses form over fences. 

I have nothing to add other than - the pole fence pole exercise LEC (?) suggested I did it in a lesson with Hamish Cargill (not name dropping just so you can make you own decision on skill of the coach) at the weekend - and as it went up you could really feel it make the horse A) think about their feet and B) use themselves well, I could really feel Beaus shoulders coming up.
We started trotting with the poles 1/2 a trot stride each side of the fence. The fence started as a X-pole at about 50cm went up to 75ish before it became a rail at 75cm. He said that if you do it at home you want to try and get the rail to at least just above knee height so that they have to jump (a bit) and can't just do a bigger step over. 
He then moved the poles out (so now 1/2 a canter stride out) and we did it at a canter  - to avoid the temptation to just jump the whole lot you have to have a really short bouncy, waiting canter. We had this as part of a large circle and were working on going forwards and back and control of the canter. I, at least, felt that it improved the canter over all as they got the idea needing to sit, wait and bounce in the canter not just bowl along in their comfort zone.
I hope that makes sense, I though it might help to explain what I felt the exercise achieved in terms of feel.

With regards to stiffness etc I've watched the vids and sometimes think she looks like Beau does sometimes now (as in post what ever he did to the backend last year). I would say that now he is 95% back to his original self but I have to make a point of lots of flexing, leg yeild etc to loosen him up at the begining of a ride. If you lunge her when cantering does she step under evenly with her inside hind or tend to take shorter srtides at the back so that she doesnt have to reach under herself? This is an indicator I now use to see how Beau is feeling in terms of stiffness etc

Hope some of that waffle is helpful. Good luck with her and please keep us updated on how everything goes. This is certainly one of the most interesting threads/topics in a while.

PS LOVE the pet crow! Does he have a name? Can he feature more in you reports?


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## Gracie21 (8 May 2012)

I used to ride a horsey just like her! 
I think she's lovely


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## little_flea (8 May 2012)

No further suggestions really to whats already been said - but I LOVE your hat!


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## Rowreach (8 May 2012)

alesea said:



			I think I'm another who'd be interested if you pulled up any physical issues with her. To me she looks a little bit like 2 different horses atm; strong (and fairly chunky) in front but with a back-end that doesn't match. Some of the videos also left me wondering if she was 100% sound behind as to my eyes her action was a bit odd at times, and she looked a little like she was trailing her left hind at points? Having said that, I could well be seeing things; the perils of coming off an orthopaedics rotation is that you begin to see lamenesses in everything (whether they have them or not). I'd be interested to see typical 'lameness work-up' type videos of her though.

QUOTE]

You're seeing what I'm seeing.
		
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## Supanova (8 May 2012)

Not read all the replies but a few comments from me:
- I think its very difficult to assess her ability over that height of fence.  She looks like she jumps the bigger oxer much better than all the other fences.  I understand that you are keeping things low to be safe at the moment but i'm not sure you are going to learn anything at that height and provided you keep the fences knock downable then hopefully you won't come to much harm.
- I would not worry too much about the planks she had down.  She was deep, you were sat slightly over her shoulder - i don't think this tells you anything.  My really careful mare can have 2ft cavalettis down in a similar fashion but jump 1.30m and not breath on it.
- Her knees don't look on a great angle in the photo so i guess it will always be harder for her to be careful - doesn't mean its impossible though.  
- I understand why you are riding like you are from the last post,  but as others have said, it doesn't look to me like it will help her.  I would try and keep her more together and take less of a forward seat.  She looks like she needs to be ridden more "showjumper" style than "eventer" style if you get my meaning.


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## Saratoga (8 May 2012)

Wow there really are some delightful people on here aren't there 

I just wanted to say good on you for giving this mare a chance! And for what it's worth, if I had a horse that had been ridden in a certain way and it hadn't worked I would do the opposite and see what reaction I got too. So IMO there is method in your madness! 

I agree with whoever said that you do need to try and forget about the past though, and try and approach her training afresh, which I know is going to be very hard! Ride her how you feel she needs to be ridden, and see what you get.

I also wanted to add, that as riders we can never be 100% accurate and we are going to get that deep shot sometimes. Fair enough if a horse isn't going to tolerate that by ducking out or stopping, but when they continue to plough through and don't pick up, it will always be a worry in the back of your mind. Tough situation.


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## little_flea (8 May 2012)

Are there any videos of the mare x-country or round a Novice sized SJ track? Be interesting to see what she does when there is perhaps a bit of adrenalin going and the fences are a bit bigger.


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## Lanky Loll (8 May 2012)

She definitely looks better in the more recent videos - the pace looks quicker too which may be helping her slightly? 
Something that is a bit of a SJ thing to try so may not come naturally to you (and I'd only try it once she's been checked over and ok'd so that you're confident).. has she ever been really dared to the fence?  As in come to a decent height fence, with a really strong canter, leg on and good contact but leaving the decisions to her?  It's one that could be a total disaster but with the stronger canter it COULD give her the impulsion to snap up better and the confidence to not chip that extra one in?  I've used it as a method on thugs that don't listen as it can teach them that you know best, and also on one that was lacking in confidence to show him that he didn't need completely hand holding. 

Feel free to ignore and like I say I wouldn't try it if you're not sure everything's been checked out and ONLY over a knockdown fence for obvious reasons!


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## MrsMozart (8 May 2012)

*hangs head in a slightly miserable fashion and scuffs boot toe in the dust*

I know I'm sounding like a doom and gloom meister. Sorry. But she still doesn't look quite right behind . There's a sort of high up prop leg and the hinds just don't seem to flow.

*trudges off to hide behind low stone parapet, donning tin hat and body armour on the way*


I do like the horse. I just don't think she looks right.


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## kerilli (8 May 2012)

Thanks everyone. 
Initial check-ups booked... Found out that she slipped badly on the road just before she came here, maybe she did something then, who knows.
I'm not sure about previous vids, I'll ask. Certainly the last few big tracks she did didn't go too well, she got it wrong and decided that just going faster and faster and totally ignoring rider might work.    
I don't think she's lazy at all, I think she's desperate to please and doesn't know quite how. As louisem said, she doesn't get the plot...
I am wondering a bit whether it's 'teaching a pig to sing' territory... the usual methods have all been tried (good instructors too).
on a different tack, for those who asked about the crow, yes, he's very cool. he's called Caz and is as wild as he wants to be, goes wherever he wants (went awol for 18 months) and chooses to hang around here with us.
vid if you're interested: flying to me from his favourite walnut tree
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElP66LGwrck&feature=youtu.be
there are others of him having a bath, catching treats that are thrown to him, and practising his words. at the moment he's working on 'hello' but gets camera-shy, the little toad. he does a very good loud click, mimicking me with the horses, which he developed all on his own and then surprised me with. he's a real little character, sits on OH's shoulder while he's filming, passing _sotto voce_ comments. 

and, back to horses, just to prove that you CAN change natural crap style for good style:
Ellie's natural style: 
	
	
		
		
	


	




which, with patient work all last summer, I got to





 and 
	
	
		
		
	


	




lots more before and after pics but you get the gist. 
ta everyone.


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## Jesstickle (8 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			on a different tack, for those who asked about the crow, yes, he's very cool. he's called Caz and is as wild as he wants to be, goes wherever he wants (went awol for 18 months) and chooses to hang around here with us.
vid if you're interested: flying to me from his favourite walnut tree
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElP66LGwrck&feature=youtu.be

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O I want him, I want him. Did you hand raise him? He is absolutely amazing. I had no idea they could talk!


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## kerilli (8 May 2012)

jesstickle said:



			O I want him, I want him. Did you hand raise him? He is absolutely amazing. I had no idea they could talk!
		
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he followed a friend home when he was a rather big fledgeling, i guess he'd fallen out of the nest. we ended up with him because he needed round-the-clock feeding and she had to go to work. he used to get me up at 4am to give him breakfast, thank god he's grown out of that! he flew in the bedroom window the other morning and landed on the bed though, cheeky git. i'll fish out another vid if you want. he's very funny and very tame. his 'talking' is just hysterical, he tries SO hard to make good noises and is delighted if i copy them back at him! His best effort at "Hello" sounds like a demented Chinese man at the moment but he's working on it!
he's so spoilt now that he pulls worms out in the fields and then doesn't bother eating them, the stuff we give him (wild bird food, berry flavoured suet pellets etc) is obv far tastier!


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## Goldenstar (8 May 2012)

My penneth for what's its worth I will be amazed if nothing physically wrong can be found with this horse. ( I was going to say I would eat my hat but it's too dangerous and imagine its disgusting sweaty etc ugh).
She just does not look right at all to me please be carefull until she's checked out.


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## kerilli (8 May 2012)

Thanks Goldenstar, she's having a few days off till check-ups can start.
It's odd though because even as a foal (before her first fall) her jump was apparently hopeless (which, with her parentage, it really shouldn't have been), but, point taken.


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## teapot (8 May 2012)

Can't offer any advice on the horse but loving the crow


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## TarrSteps (8 May 2012)

Would be interesting to know if her jump was hopeless before her crash or after.  Things can happen to foals, too . . .


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## kerilli (8 May 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			Would be interesting to know if her jump was hopeless before her crash or after.  Things can happen to foals, too . . .
		
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Tell me about it, mine still looks awful.    
It was hopeless before, apparently.


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## Jesstickle (8 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			i'll fish out another vid if you want.
		
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yes please 

Sorry I cant offer any help about your predicament btw. I can't ride for toffee and wouldn't know where to start (lucky for me BH turned out to be naturally tidy over a fence or we'd be in big trouble )


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## Bearskin (8 May 2012)

Personally I do not think she is a hopeless case. Her hindlegs do not shout "problem" to me and she canters in a balanced way (albeit her own way...) Perhaps she does have kissing spines but I suspect a lot of horses do.  One of my horses was graded Advanced and evented to 2*.  We discovered his kissing spines after he retired.  His XC record was only spoiled by two rider error 20 penalties.

 Have been trying to find a video of The Irishman online but he seems to have been competing before video was invented.  He had a similar style.

Give it three months of schooling and testing exercises.  If she has not improved then let her go hunting.  Change takes time.


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## now_loves_mares (8 May 2012)

jesstickle said:



			yes please 

Sorry I cant offer any help about your predicament btw. I can't ride for toffee and wouldn't know where to start (lucky for me BH turned out to be naturally tidy over a fence or we'd be in big trouble )
		
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Huge apologies for being out of touch, I've been away so neither saw the original thread nor read the legion replies you've had to this! But something caught my eye in your first post where you mentioned she made her shape after the fence. I had one that did this, a good number of years ago. He was quite nappy too, and considered opinion was that this (ie the making shape after the fence) was usually a sign of back issues. This was before MRIs and thermal imaging and such things being par for the course, so the horse was eventually retired to the blood bank. However we suspected sacro-iliac with this particular one.

Sorry didn't mean to quote above, that's what happens when you take a few days away from the internet, you forget how to use it!


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## Burnttoast (8 May 2012)

teapot said:



			Can't offer any advice on the horse but loving the crow 

Click to expand...

Ditto this! My uncle has one too - rescued from their street with a dodgy wing. He lives in a jerry-built aviary in their garden as he can't fly properly now, and is completely tame - and very cool. Certainly finds his humans amusing! Corvids are seriously bright birds


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## Bearskin (8 May 2012)

Love the Crow too.  Who gave him his leg rings?


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## kerilli (8 May 2012)

We gave him his leg rings, they had my phone number & Reward on them, but we've taken them off him now, he can obv fend for himself, & find his way home...
Thanks for the other advice everyone. 
I have a vid of The Irishman, will find it... I remember him being good in front tho..


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## vallin (8 May 2012)

Nothing constructive to add, was just wondering how you other (patient) horses were doing?


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## dafthoss (8 May 2012)

Thanks for the crow videos they were awesome , what did he throw in to your mouth?


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## alesea (8 May 2012)

Bearskin said:



			Perhaps she does have kissing spines but I suspect a lot of horses do.  One of my horses was graded Advanced and evented to 2*.  We discovered his kissing spines after he retired.  His XC record was only spoiled by two rider error 20 penalties.
		
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Research would say that you're probably absolutely right about that one- there have been a few papers on kissing spines that say that they are really quite common (one paper found that 90% of wild horses had them but had no lameness/other physical issues). A lot of people are now theorising that in many 'kissing spines' cases the horses have had impinging DSPs for a long time and some sort of trauma has caused them to become painful.


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## kerilli (8 May 2012)

vallin said:



			Nothing constructive to add, was just wondering how you other (patient) horses were doing?
		
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Ellie's turned out (finally) and improving, just finishing second course of steroids. At this rate I hope she'll at least stay good enough to hack and maybe do some dressage, the odd thing is she looks 100% in herself (no atrophy anywhere etc) apart from wobblyness of hindend... but she's now cantering around and not looking as if she'll fall over, so, huge improvement.
Jinni (the yearling) is now turned out again, on vet's advice; she's coping, but her neck looks pretty awful. muscle really atrophied, equally both sides. vets say 'wait and see'...  but i am heartbroken, she looked so promising before and now she looks like two different animals shoved together. her neck looks very stiff, she isn't bending it well but doesn't seem to be in any pain, just doesn't want to bend it.    
thanks for asking, much appreciated.
dafthoss, he spat a bit of his suet bird pellet into my mouth, i just couldn't cope with that! only time he's done it too, typical.


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## Goldenstar (8 May 2012)

I think the bird is the coolest thing ever.


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## Puppy (9 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			Jinni (the yearling) is now turned out again, on vet's advice; she's coping, but her neck looks pretty awful. muscle really atrophied, equally both sides. vets say 'wait and see'...  but i am heartbroken, she looked so promising before and now she looks like two different animals shoved together. her neck looks very stiff, she isn't bending it well but doesn't seem to be in any pain, just doesn't want to bend it.   

Click to expand...

This makes me so sad for you   I really hope you and your girls have a change of luck very soon. For what it's worth, as a person with an injured neck whose problem stems from muscle wastage, stretches, religiously, are slowly making improvements for me that I never thought possible before they diagnosed the reason behind my pain, so do keep persevering. Give me a shout if you want to know more, as what the hospital have taught me about my condition may well apply to Jinni. x


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## Festive_Felicitations (9 May 2012)

Caz is cool! Thank you for sharing the video of him.

Glad to hear that Ellie is improving. Sorry to hear that Jinni is still stiff, but Dr Green is a wonderful healer so will keep things crossed that Dr Green and some stretching help everything recover.


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## TarrSteps (9 May 2012)

Re Jinny agree with Puppy, physio (especially every day stuff, rather than just having intense sessions) is the way forward for things you can't "fix".  It may not make it so it never happened but at this point I think it makes sense to help her as much as possible, in order to optimise her growth.  

I think I mentioned before that a breeder I work for had a similar-ish thing happen to their absolute star, all the hopes pinned on three year old.  They turned him away for the summer, in the field with the other colts, with the idea of likely putting him down in the winter.  He was better enough by fall so they left him and by the next summer he was okay enough to back.  I'll admit he wasn't the horse he was - he even looked different in some undefinable way - and he'd lost some of his movement but he went on to event for a good few years, up to the equivalent of Novice.  Given how many fabulous three year olds don't fulfil early promise, for all I know he never was going to be a star anyway.  They had time and space.  

I know you don't have that sort of challenging turn out but you do have your own time and enthusiasm.  There are lots of interesting rehab ideas for horses.  Look into T-Touch and the relatively recent "Masterson Method" book.  There is also a very interesting French book (some of which will make you cringe but skip those bits!) which I will find a link for.  What they heck, it's worth a shot.

Heck, my mother designed a successful rehab program for my pet rat after he had a stroke!  

It is true, she might never now be the horse you've dreamed of but maybe the grey horse is here to show you that proactive measures at the first sign of trouble are the way to go, not just trusting to luck time and the same old, same old will fix things?  (Although I'm a big fan of time and tradition, too!)


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## TarrSteps (9 May 2012)

This one, I think, although I remember a different cover: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Physical-Th...=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1336524030&sr=1-3


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## kerilli (9 May 2012)

great, thanks.
am doing daily stretches and massaging on her, physio booked, thermal imaging booked, chiro booked, not sure what else i can do now...
trouble is i don't want to risk making it worse, and it clunks and grinds when she turns it, argh.     a little bit of me thinks 'nature's way is to lock it straight for a while to let things heal as they are'... you know?
Puppy, I'll ask you on fb, thankyou so much.


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## TarrSteps (9 May 2012)

Oh, completely agree, you have to get a diagnosis and know you're not making anything worse before you start any kind of program! Just to the idea that there are lots of helpful options out there if and when you get the all clear.


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## vallin (9 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			Ellie's turned out (finally) and improving, just finishing second course of steroids. At this rate I hope she'll at least stay good enough to hack and maybe do some dressage, the odd thing is she looks 100% in herself (no atrophy anywhere etc) apart from wobblyness of hindend... but she's now cantering around and not looking as if she'll fall over, so, huge improvement.
Jinni (the yearling) is now turned out again, on vet's advice; she's coping, but her neck looks pretty awful. muscle really atrophied, equally both sides. vets say 'wait and see'...  but i am heartbroken, she looked so promising before and now she looks like two different animals shoved together. her neck looks very stiff, she isn't bending it well but doesn't seem to be in any pain, just doesn't want to bend it.    
thanks for asking, much appreciated.
dafthoss, he spat a bit of his suet bird pellet into my mouth, i just couldn't cope with that! only time he's done it too, typical.
		
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Best of luck with them, time and patients is a great healer  I managed to pop a few (albeit very small!) jumps on my mare this weekend who I never thought would be able to do more than really hack (and she doesn't do that very well!  ) so there is hope


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## Goldenstar (9 May 2012)

Oh you are having a bad time at the minute it's the horsey doldrums that hits every so often keep smiling and you will come though.
And I so want a Caz I am going to check from lost chicks under the crows nests in our woods and then I'll be pming you for advice.


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## Festive_Felicitations (10 May 2012)

Kerilli - 'CrazyFresian' who posts on here is, I think, a TTouch person or knows a lot about it at least and is very nice if you want someone to talk to about their methods and maybe have a trial session.


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## hollyandivy123 (17 May 2012)

just wondering how the mare was doing? any progress or answers?


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## kerilli (17 May 2012)

thanks FF, i'll look into TTouch, i have a book about it somewhere, will fish it out.
oh, post resurrected, thanks hollyandivy! progress... hmm. had her treated by my excellent McTimoney Chiro last week, he found quite a few things wrong but nothing terribly bad, he thought. she had a few days off after that treatment, then hacked a few days, felt absolutely fine and quite a bit brighter in herself. I worked her harder on the flat on Tuesday, no vid unfortunately, but she felt totally even and fine, and I asked a lot more and got the canter more 'up'. Had Thermal Imaging done yesterday and am awaiting report and pics. Certainly there were quite a few red flag areas, withers area was very bad, C7 chest area was very bad, and her lower limbs all showed terrible circulation, coming down from a back issue apparently. so, numb legs? maybe. possibly a reason for the lack of conscience?  more questions than answers at the moment... frustrating!


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## hollyandivy123 (17 May 2012)

so it is good and bad with the thermal...............bad that there is a problem but good in the sense that there is a problem to treat and gives a possible starting point to work from which i hope has an easy solution!


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## lynds81 (17 May 2012)

Just saw the comments about Tellington Touch - what is it you are thinking of using it for? I've done some training of this (I worked for Sarah Fisher who does it and teaches it) for a little while, so just wondered? Sorry haven't read the whole post...


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## kerilli (17 May 2012)

hollyandivy, yes, good and bad with the thermal... funny, no surprises really. i had my yearling Jinni done too, and gave the lady a brief history. it shows HUGE heat in the head, as well as the known trouble spots of neck, C7 etc... and she came back with "is there any chance this one has had a head injury"... ah, yes, seriously concussed herself. amazing what the Thermal Imaging shows up, even months later. I think it's a very valuable tool... will save up for my own camera at this rate!
lynds, i have two ataxic horses at the moment and a new one in who doesn't seem to know where her front legs are when she jumps, so, 3 of them, really. i have the big TT book though, is that a good starting point? thanks.


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## lynds81 (17 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			hollyandivy, yes, good and bad with the thermal... funny, no surprises really. i had my yearling Jinni done too, and gave the lady a brief history. it shows HUGE heat in the head, as well as the known trouble spots of neck, C7 etc... and she came back with "is there any chance this one has had a head injury"... ah, yes, seriously concussed herself. amazing what the Thermal Imaging shows up, even months later. I think it's a very valuable tool... will save up for my own camera at this rate!
lynds, i have two ataxic horses at the moment and a new one in who doesn't seem to know where her front legs are when she jumps, so, 3 of them, really. i have the big TT book though, is that a good starting point? thanks.
		
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Not entirely sure which book you're referring to - I've got a massive folder that I was given but not the books; Linda Tellington-Jones is the founder (name gives it away!) so she'd be the one to read it from I would think. 

There's one exercise that would probably help your mare that doesn't always pick up jumping (had a look at the videos) called a Python Lift - might be worth taking a look at... It might help her to become more aware of where her legs are. 

To be perfectly honest I haven't seen it used on ataxic horses; I would imagine it could be useful as it releases stiffness, and raises the bodies awareness as to what the animal is doing etc.


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## Festive_Felicitations (18 May 2012)

Good news and bad news I guess. Good that there is something to work on, bad that there is something wrong.
I hope the thermal imaging report gives you something to go on, and you can make her more comfortable if nothing else.


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## Jesstickle (18 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			hollyandivy, yes, good and bad with the thermal... funny, no surprises really. i had my yearling Jinni done too, and gave the lady a brief history. it shows HUGE heat in the head, as well as the known trouble spots of neck, C7 etc... and she came back with "is there any chance this one has had a head injury"... ah, yes, seriously concussed herself. amazing what the Thermal Imaging shows up, even months later.
		
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Can I ask who you used and how much it cost you. I'm very sceptical ( because I am a massive sceptic about pretty much everything!) but someone suggested it might be useful for BH's mystery lame leg ( I decided to just turn him away in the end btw, at least three months but probably six I expect) 

Sorry to hijack!


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## hollyandivy123 (5 June 2012)

bumping the post just wondering how the mare was going?


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## amage (5 June 2012)

Yes a other one here wondering was there an update


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## kerilli (5 June 2012)

jesstickle said:



			Can I ask who you used and how much it cost you. I'm very sceptical ( because I am a massive sceptic about pretty much everything!) but someone suggested it might be useful for BH's mystery lame leg ( I decided to just turn him away in the end btw, at least three months but probably six I expect) 

Sorry to hijack!
		
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sorry, didn't see this... i use Faye Keyte, pm me for her number if you like. i find the thermal pictures very useful, along with a lot of other things obviously, i would never use them in isolation.

update -  Flo is going pretty well really. my cameraman is a bit on strike at the moment but i'll try to get some more vids taken later. i have got the jumps up bigger and am working on keeping the canter even more up and round, and the rhythm feels good. She's jumping very nicely and cleanly, no oopsy moments at all, but front leg style still not as ace as i'd like... but i've tried sending her on a little more to fences here and there and it's been fine, she's very happy to go on a slightly longer one or a slightly deeper one, we've had no disagreements or awful 'shall i or shan't i try to get another one in' moments which is what she apparently did before.
i really tried sticking to LouiseM's very contained and channelling style as I was told, not giving with the hands at all in the air, just putting them together on the withers and holding, but the mare was starting to really not enjoy her jumping that way, so i decided i was in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. So I have tried to mix LouiseM's way in with my way, rather than going 100% for a system that is so containing and alien to the way i ride... hope that makes sense. we have some progress but i'm not sure about trying her over fixed fences or not... mare's owner says not... so, bit of a quandary really.


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## Festive_Felicitations (6 June 2012)

You have probably thought of all this, but would it be worth taking her to a SJing competition to see if she can keep jumping well under pressure, before seeing how she deals with fixed fences? Or maybe something like jump cross - so you have the varying terrain etc but the safety of knock down fences?

What was the outcome of the overhaul? Did anything get treated? Just wondering...

PS how are your invalids? Becoming less invalid I hope!


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## kerilli (6 June 2012)

FF, yes, showjumping is on the cards next, i wanted to get her back a bit better first and have superdooper person booked for 12 June, soonest he could get to me. Have considered jumpcross too, luckily the biggest U.K. centre for it is only about an hour from me, it'd be a good way of feeling what she's like xc without the danger of fixed fences if she has a sudden 'i don't know how to jump' moment...  at the moment though, having run the latest vid past some very experienced people whose opinions I really rate, I am rather tending towards the 'pig to sing' theory... for her sake even more than mine. Never known such a conscientious horse, she'd be absolutely perfect for anyone who didn't ever want to jump fixed fences, basically!
the invalids are both turned out and both coping, thanks for asking. we had hare coursers around 2 days ago though and Ellie got a bit upset and managed to slip over twice, just lost her back end, she's stable as long as she concentrates on it basically. neither is absolutely 100% by any means but they both have a nice quality of life, they have their mates with them, can canter about and don't fall over etc so that's something. Whether either will improve enough to be rideable and useful I have no clue and nor do the vets apparently... but at least they're both still here, and where there's life there's hope.


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## CalllyH (6 June 2012)

Has she ever had a fall jumping like this or clattered through a fence?


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## kerilli (6 June 2012)

CalllyH said:



			Has she ever had a fall jumping like this or clattered through a fence?
		
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Yes, she had a full rotational onto rider last year at Novice level (luckily rider was fine, squishy ground helped). She has done quite a number of clears at BE100 and Novice, however.


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## coss (6 June 2012)

please keep the updates coming as they happen - i keep coming back to this thread to see any progress reports 
great to hear your plans for her and what you're doing to try and tackle the issue.


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## kerilli (6 June 2012)

coss said:



			please keep the updates coming as they happen - i keep coming back to this thread to see any progress reports 
great to hear your plans for her and what you're doing to try and tackle the issue.
		
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will do, thanks. 
the general consensus on the latest vid is 'definite improvement, but not enough for fixed fences yet'. 
12 June is D-day, we'll see what my ace back person thinks and does with her...


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## Festive_Felicitations (6 June 2012)

Well I hope super back person comes up with something that might make a significant difference, or failing that you and her owner can come up with a 2nd career that she will enjoy. I imagine it must be very fustrating/disapointing that she is not her mum. 
As other have said, please keep us updated. It is always interesting to follow these stories and what people try etc.

Glad to hear the invalids are doing OK and enjoying life. Horses recover from some incredible injuries and I hope in 5 yrs time you will be collecting ribbons and telling people 'you would never believe it but 5 yrs ago she couldn't walk in a straight line....'
In the mean time this staying on your feet buisness is tricky you know! Beau almost stacked it on the lunge by trying to look one way and walk the other.....


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## wizoz (6 June 2012)

Hi K, not going to read other comments just wanted to give my 10p worth 

This girl has BIG movement but for me, isn't supple through her neck and doesn't want to use her shoulders, I feel she is a little on the forehand and therefore when I watch her jump, she dives over a fence and doesn't lift her front end.

For me, the key would be in the flatwork, lots of suppling exercises and lots and lots of moving her forward and back in the canter, making the canter as small as possible, which will probably be difficult for her but I'd love to see her sit more behind. 
She needs to be lots more rounder and a bit more "up" in front. Having had Boo, who jumps like her but is smaller and probably a bit tidier in front, I know how important the "Up" training has been.

She needs long and low work and then up work, so that she is constantly using all the muscles through her back.

Raised poles on the floor are a good exercise, really gets her to think about where her feet are going and using her body, having to lift those legs over each pole. 

I have no problem with taking horses back to real basics. She likes her jumping, you can see that, I think her body parts are letting her down, not her head 

Handing over 10p


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## CalllyH (7 June 2012)

Sorry I'm sure you said that at the beginning, it normally helps them to learn but maybe she's destined to be a pretty dressage pony instead! Go flo!


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