# Today's session lists of progress



## Armas (23 August 2013)

Another mostly positive day and still heading in a positive   direction. The collected work is starting come together.
His shape is filling and muscling up nicely.

[video=youtube;46C0VoIiMfU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46C0VoIiMfU&amp;sns=em[/video]


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## AdorableAlice (23 August 2013)

I only watched until 5 minutes, his chin barely left his chest.


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## Buds_mum (23 August 2013)

Personally think its repulsive. interesting to see the bay horse being ridden and going in a very similar way to armas, and to my mind he is still being put behind the vertical.


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## Armas (23 August 2013)

The bay horse is not a regular at the yard and is not trained by my trainer. The bay horse is trained by the male Cade noire instructor.
Repulsive in what way ? In the fact the he is BTV by choice not by force.


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## Armas (23 August 2013)

Muck_bucket said:



			I agree with Adorable Alice in the fact that he looks very behind the rider. Whether the behind the vertical is forced or not it shows is he simply not capable of the work asked for him, and you feeling he is progression shows an inability to understand the correct way of going of a horse.
		
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Welcome back to the forum new name same old style some things never change. If you can't see the progress and the improvements they I suggest it is you who have a lack of understanding.


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## Buds_mum (23 August 2013)

I just don't think he's really improved and its sad that he is still carving a track round the arena with his head on his chest in the pursuit of what...? 

We will agree to disagree James, he is after all your horse and I don't want to get on your bad side, it is purely my opinion.


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## snooples (23 August 2013)

It was nice to see him playing around in the video yesterday, trotting and cantering around with his head nowhere near his chest!


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## Allover (23 August 2013)

Have you paid any attention to the riders hands? I find the trot work is uncomfortable to watch. You seem to be blind to the fact she is pulling his nose is with almost every step he takes. She can't even let him go on a loose rein and drop his nose out - which to my eye he is begging the rider to let him do- when he is walking on a long rein. Going BTV is the riders choice not the horses.


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## Moomin1 (23 August 2013)

Mmm. I had a lesson today on my mare.  She was hollowing out on the left rein and shoving her head in the air like a giraffe when I was asking her to work properly. I wonder if the posters above find this 'repulsive'?

She also then, with further exercises, made improvements. Not consistently, but they were there, little by little.  So, does that mean that I shouldn't be pleased with our progress, or swap my instructor, because clearly the fact that she did actually evade at some points, means that the times she did make improvements mean nothing then?


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## Moomin1 (23 August 2013)

Allover said:



			Have you paid any attention to the riders hands? I find the trot work is uncomfortable to watch. You seem to be blind to the fact she is pulling his nose is with almost every step he takes. She can't even let him go on a loose rein and drop his nose out - which to my eye he is begging the rider to let him do- when he is walking on a long rein. Going BTV is the riders choice not the horses.
		
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That's where you are very wrong. Going btv is an evasion technique in some cases, just as poking the nose is with some horses.


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## Allover (23 August 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			That's where you are very wrong. Going btv is an evasion technique in some cases, just as poking the nose is with some horses.
		
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Some horses may go BTV but that does not mean the rider has to actively encourage it nor avoid dealing with the issue before advancing through his training.


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## Armas (23 August 2013)

She is not actively encouraging him to go BTV, however she is maintaining the contact were ever he puts his head and that is the correct thing to do.


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## AdorableAlice (23 August 2013)

Armas said:



			Welcome back to the forum new name same old style some things never change. If you can't see the progress and the improvements they I suggest it is you who have a lack of understanding.
		
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I meant no offence. The horse is over bent and compromised in his breathing with his gullet so compressed. That is what I see, may be I know nothing, that is of no consequence,  it has been a while since my horse was at the nationals perhaps I have forgotten how a horse should go.  Poll high, open gullet, up through the wither, free in the shoulders, swinging back.

It takes years to school a horse and for it all to come together is a great achievement. I hope your horse learns to open his frame and take a contact forwards, onlt then will he be able to learn correct collection.


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## snooples (23 August 2013)

Agree with the above.
I dont know much about dressage and dont pretend to but surely if a horse cant even do a working trot correctly this should be fixed rather than advancing onto collection!!


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## Caol Ila (23 August 2013)

I remain unconvinced that he's comfortable enough in his back end for the level of collection that is being asked.  There is just no articulation of the joints in his hip, hock, and stifle, and he looks especially stiff behind in the walk breaks.  At no point does he ever really bring his hocks underneath his body.  Now maybe this is just the way he moves, which is fair enough, but if that is the case and he were my horse, I would say that dressage higher than (American) First Level (which is kind of like British Prelim, I think) isn't for him since, if you want to get to Second Level or above which is where you start asking for collected trot, shoulder-in, travers, etc., you want a horse who naturally has a wide range of motion and naturally flexes the joints in its hindleg.  I had a horse who had a similar lack of range of motion and stiff movement behind -- just her natural quarter horse movement, but not helped by the beginnings of arthritis -- who I sold because she wasn't going to work out as a dressage horse.  No amount of love nor money would get that horse to really bring her hocks underneath her and happily sit behind.  She had a happy life teaching kids to jump and taking her new owner on trail rides, and I bought a dressage horse.  Armas is eager to please in a way my QH never was, so he at least tries (whereas my QH would tell you exactly where to shove your collection), but he never looks comfortable.


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## Allover (23 August 2013)

Armas said:



			She is not actively encouraging him to go BTV, however she is maintaining the contact were ever he puts his head and that is the correct thing to do.
		
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Yes she is. There is no "contact" there to maintain.


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## Moomin1 (23 August 2013)

Allover said:



			Yes she is.
		
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I disagree, but then again, I suppose I ride at a much lower level then you. Perhaps you can offer your help and go and sort the problem out?


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## soulfull (23 August 2013)

I'm really sorry. I posted once before that I thought I could see some improvement. But that has gone.  You say she only maintains the contact but if you just watch her hands and  nothing else you will see every so often as he tries to stretch his head out she takes a pull on the outside rein and he being a sensitive soul tucks his head back in. 
However I have a feeling no matter how many of us same the same thing, you really don't want to hear it.  I'm actually surprised you are still bothering to post videos


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## Allover (23 August 2013)

To be fair I could probably do no worse


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## Mongoose11 (23 August 2013)

And we begin again....


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## milliepops (23 August 2013)

Have been watching all of the videos but not commented for a while. Without wanting to sound like a broken record I think you do have to see each session in the context of the rest of the week's work, as today's ridden session is not representative of the training as a whole.

Putting aside the BTV issue, for me what is of greater interest is the length of his neck overall. When he is going forward in a way that he is confident with, he is now reaching out into a longer frame. At *times* we are now seeing that poll-high, open & over the back feeling  

Today looked like she challenged him a bit more with the lateral work in collected canter - this really does seem hard for him and the canter becomes a bit short and tight as he just doesn't have the balance or engagement yet. But on the plus side, he is keeping his rhythm, staying with her and really trying. She's sacrificed the contact a bit today to achieve that.  It's swings & roundabouts though - he hasn't un-learned that reach, but it won't all come at once yet.  I suppose it's just a case of what the rider feels the priority is each day.

Yesterday on the long reins he looked tighter when she asked him to flex to the inside more and the lateral canter work today just reminded me of that a bit. I wonder what he would be like if she really rode forwards when asking for the flexion.  Think he might find it easier to deliver with an easier way of going, though appreciate the 'form' of the lateral work would possibly unravel a bit at this stage.  The right hind is a bit of a question mark at the moment and I think it was predictable that the left to right changes were awkward :wink3:

FWIW i don't think she's *pulling* him BTV.  I do think she's carrying her hands lower than she did at the start which makes them appear more fixed and she sometimes appears to miss an opportunity to let him just reach a few inches forward.  I also think from her comments in the last few days that she's less worried about his frame at the moment and more about having his focussed attention and obedience. He looks reasonably relaxed.  That and the fact that she does work him into a more truly forward-down-out contact on the long reins is reassuring to me 


Today looked like the first time he's really been able to stay with her *mentally* with so many distractions outside.  It would be nice to see if she can get the same level of concentration on one of his easy stretchy days and do that under saddle instead of long reins


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## Moomin1 (23 August 2013)

milliepops said:



			Have been watching all of the videos but not commented for a while. Without wanting to sound like a broken record I think you do have to see each session in the context of the rest of the week's work, as today's ridden session is not representative of the training as a whole.

Putting aside the BTV issue, for me what is of greater interest is the length of his neck overall. When he is going forward in a way that he is confident with, he is now reaching out into a longer frame. At *times* we are now seeing that poll-high, open & over the back feeling  

Today looked like she challenged him a bit more with the lateral work in collected canter - this really does seem hard for him and the canter becomes a bit short and tight as he just doesn't have the balance or engagement yet. But on the plus side, he is keeping his rhythm, staying with her and really trying. She's sacrificed the contact a bit today to achieve that.  It's swings & roundabouts though - he hasn't un-learned that reach, but it won't all come at once yet.  I suppose it's just a case of what the rider feels the priority is each day.

Yesterday on the long reins he looked tighter when she asked him to flex to the inside more and the lateral canter work today just reminded me of that a bit. I wonder what he would be like if she really rode forwards when asking for the flexion.  Think he might find it easier to deliver with an easier way of going, though appreciate the 'form' of the lateral work would possibly unravel a bit at this stage.  The right hind is a bit of a question mark at the moment and I think it was predictable that the left to right changes were awkward :wink3:

FWIW i don't think she's *pulling* him BTV.  I do think she's carrying her hands lower than she did at the start which makes them appear more fixed and she sometimes appears to miss an opportunity to let him just reach a few inches forward.  I also think from her comments in the last few days that she's less worried about his frame at the moment and more about having his focussed attention and obedience. He looks reasonably relaxed.  That and the fact that she does work him into a more truly forward-down-out contact on the long reins is reassuring to me 


Today looked like the first time he's really been able to stay with her *mentally* with so many distractions outside.  It would be nice to see if she can get the same level of concentration on one of his easy stretchy days and do that under saddle instead of long reins 

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Oh MP, thank god for this post. I just couldn't be bothered to type the same, as I am too busy enjoying my wine and shattered after my lesson today!! ;-)


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## nikicb (23 August 2013)

I haven't responded to these threads before, but have watched quite a few of the videos.  The one thing that has struck me from the beginning is how low the rider carries her hands.  I have a youngish horse (6) and whilst he is not built like Armas (he is the same colour!  ), nor is he the same temperament, he does go on the forehand and can tuck btv when he is not wanting to work.  I did spend some time riding quite defensively and my hands were somewhat buried.  With confidence, and lots more lessons, I am able to carry my hands now, and the transformation has been amazing.  He is no longer fixed and tucked in, but up through his shoulders and tall and proud.  Armas (person!) - is this something worth discussing with the rider?


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## milliepops (23 August 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Oh MP, thank god for this post. I just couldn't be bothered to type the same, as I am too busy enjoying my wine and shattered after my lesson today!! ;-)
		
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:lol: Fair enough! Red or white? 

For me I just think you have to see the thing as a whole.  There are plenty of things I might have done differently with this horse but there's no way of knowing if it would have had a better or worse result, so... Not much point speculating  

She's not 'perfect', but I don't think she's *bad* either (& I think she's fantastic with the long reins! I'm incredibly inspired in that respect) and it's her comments that make it for me - like when she said today that he was beginning to pull into her hands in the lengthened trot . It's not a proper extension yet, but he has to learn to pull first.  Just one tiny example of where i think she's looking for the right feel from the horse.


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## Moomin1 (23 August 2013)

milliepops said:



			:lol: Fair enough! Red or white? 

For me I just think you have to see the thing as a whole.  There are plenty of things I might have done differently with this horse but there's no way of knowing if it would have had a better or worse result, so... Not much point speculating  

She's not 'perfect', but I don't think she's *bad* either (& I think she's fantastic with the long reins! I'm incredibly inspired in that respect) and it's her comments that make it for me - like when she said today that he was beginning to pull into her hands in the lengthened trot . It's not a proper extension yet, but he has to learn to pull first.  Just one tiny example of where i think she's looking for the right feel from the horse.
		
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Very very rarely say this on this forum, but 100% with you.

BTW - Red, and it's going down VERY nicely!


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## Mongoose11 (23 August 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Very very rarely say this on this forum, but 100% with you
		
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Isn't this a little bit like being awarded an MBE? 

Mooms, I do hope you don't mind, you do make me laugh. Your acid tongue is sharp enough to cut through mine and for that I say thank you.


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## Armas (23 August 2013)

Yes but there  are reds and there are reds which is it !


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## zigzag (23 August 2013)

OH why Oh why hasn't anyone said "Why isn't she wearing a hat!"


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## Mongoose11 (23 August 2013)

Total hijack, but can I recommend this red...

http://laibachwines.com/index.php/wines/189 

I hardly ever drink as I don't reeeeaaaally like alcohol, but in Winter this gets bought and it is heavenly.


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## Moomin1 (23 August 2013)

Armas said:



			Yes but there  are reds and there are reds which is it !
		
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It's classy stuff Armas!  Classy stuff!

Sainsbury's House Cabernet Sauvignon!!


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## Auslander (23 August 2013)

I'm pretty over commenting on these threads, not because I'm not interested in his progress, but because I can't be bothered to deal with the bun-fight aspect - and was pretty annoyed about a few comments directed at me. 

My overwhelming feeling is that you need to look at the desired outcome (whch she explains very eloquently for a non native speaker), rather than what you see in front of you on a particular day. We KNOW he goes behind the vertical in a flash when he's finding something hard, we KNOW he is  tense, rushy horse. It surprises me that its so difficult to see past the bad bits,(which are slowly decreasing in duration/determination), and comment on the vast improvements that are beginning to show in equal proportions to the not so good bits. I don't think she rides him perfectly, and there are things I'd love to say about various aspects of her technique, but sh has improved him, and I think it's a shame that people won't acknowledge that.


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## Moomin1 (23 August 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			Isn't this a little bit like being awarded an MBE? 

Mooms, I do hope you don't mind, you do make me laugh. Your acid tongue is sharp enough to cut through mine and for that I say thank you. 

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Lol - oh I don't know Billie, you have outdone me a few times!! ;-)


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## Mongoose11 (23 August 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Lol - oh I don't know Billie, you have outdone me a few times!! ;-)
		
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Oohh I know, don't get me wrong. Just nice to see a challenger coming up through the ranks...


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## nikicb (23 August 2013)

Auslander said:



			I'm pretty over commenting on these threads, not because I'm not interested in his progress, but because I can't be bothered to deal with the bun-fight aspect - and was pretty annoyed about a few comments directed at me. 

My overwhelming feeling is that you need to look at the desired outcome (whch she explains very eloquently for a non native speaker), rather than what you see in front of you on a particular day. We KNOW he goes behind the vertical in a flash when he's finding something hard, we KNOW he is  tense, rushy horse. It surprises me that its so difficult to see past the bad bits,(which are slowly decreasing in duration/determination), and comment on the vast improvements that are beginning to show in equal proportions to the not so good bits. I don't think she rides him perfectly, and there are things I'd love to say about various aspects of her technique, but sh has improved him, and I think it's a shame that people won't acknowledge that.
		
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I agree and regard these videos as work in progress.  I have some w-i-p videos on Cam's FB page, but I wouldn't be posting them on here for everyone to prey on.  And that is also why I have desisted on posting in the past, but I would be interested in hearing a response on the point I raised earlier.


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## Moomin1 (23 August 2013)

Billie1007 said:



			Oohh I know, don't get me wrong. Just nice to see a challenger coming up through the ranks... 

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Lol, I can't be doing with nicey nicey unless it is what I truly believe!


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## zigzag (23 August 2013)

Auslander said:



			I'm pretty over commenting on these threads, not because I'm not interested in his progress, but because I can't be bothered to deal with the bun-fight aspect - and was pretty annoyed about a few comments directed at me. 

My overwhelming feeling is that you need to look at the desired outcome (whch she explains very eloquently for a non native speaker), rather than what you see in front of you on a particular day. We KNOW he goes behind the vertical in a flash when he's finding something hard, we KNOW he is  tense, rushy horse. It surprises me that its so difficult to see past the bad bits,(which are slowly decreasing in duration/determination), and comment on the vast improvements that are beginning to show in equal proportions to the not so good bits. I don't think she rides him perfectly, and there are things I'd love to say about various aspects of her technique, but sh has improved him, and I think it's a shame that people won't acknowledge that.
		
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This, He looks a totally different animal to the first video you posted. (Only thing I'm not keen on with the rider is the "sawing" action of her hands at times, Not a fan of that technique personally, but know it works for some


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## Armas (23 August 2013)

nikicb said:



			I haven't responded to these threads before, but have watched quite a few of the videos.  The one thing that has struck me from the beginning is how low the rider carries her hands.  I have a youngish horse (6) and whilst he is not built like Armas (he is the same colour!  ), nor is he the same temperament, he does go on the forehand and can tuck btv when he is not wanting to work.  I did spend some time riding quite defensively and my hands were somewhat buried.  With confidence, and lots more lessons, I am able to carry my hands now, and the transformation has been amazing.  He is no longer fixed and tucked in, but up through his shoulders and tall and proud.  Armas (person!) - is this something worth discussing with the rider?
		
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I will asker her tomorrow to respond to that question at the end of the video.


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## nikicb (23 August 2013)

Armas said:



			I will asker her tomorrow to respond to that question at the end of the video.
		
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Thank you - I look forward to hearing her opinion.


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## Armas (23 August 2013)

Auslander said:



			I'm pretty over commenting on these threads, not because I'm not interested in his progress, but because I can't be bothered to deal with the bun-fight aspect - and was pretty annoyed about a few comments directed at me. 

My overwhelming feeling is that you need to look at the desired outcome (whch she explains very eloquently for a non native speaker), rather than what you see in front of you on a particular day. We KNOW he goes behind the vertical in a flash when he's finding something hard, we KNOW he is  tense, rushy horse. It surprises me that its so difficult to see past the bad bits,(which are slowly decreasing in duration/determination), and comment on the vast improvements that are beginning to show in equal proportions to the not so good bits. I don't think she rides him perfectly, and there are things I'd love to say about various aspects of her technique, but sh has improved him, and I think it's a shame that people won't acknowledge that.
		
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Always a wise poster ! I have missed your posts.....


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## Purple18 (23 August 2013)

Were all going round in circles many people don't like. some do like it. trainer, horse BTV  lameness and everything else. lets face it were  not  all going to agree. James is sticking to this trainer.so we can all spend time writing huge posts that are ignored so  I personally won't be wasting any more time and effort explain and pointing out  the same thing over and over again. this thread just seems totally pointless.


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## Auslander (23 August 2013)

Purple18 said:



			Were all going round in circles many people don't like. some do like it. trainer, horse BTV  lameness and everything else. lets face it were  not  all going to agree. James is sticking to this trainer.so we can all spend time writing huge posts that are ignored so  I personally won't be wasting any more time and effort explain and pointing out  the same thing over and over again. this post just seems totally pointless.
		
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Corrected that typo for you


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## Moomin1 (23 August 2013)

Purple18 said:



			Were all going round in circles many people don't like. some do like it. trainer, horse BTV  lameness and everything else. lets face it were  not  all going to agree. James is sticking to this trainer.so we can all spend time writing huge posts that are ignored so  I personally won't be wasting any more time and effort explain and pointing out  the same thing over and over again. this thread just seems totally pointless.
		
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Hahahaa! This is such a funny post.

You start out by saying how we all must accept that we aren't all going to agree etc.  Yet you then say that you won't bother 'wasting' your time posting because James ignores it and it is pointless. So in other words, unless James agrees with YOUR opinion, then it is pointless anyone posting.


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## Armas (23 August 2013)

Auslander said:



			Corrected that typo for you
		
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Ha ha ha I am still laughing !


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## Moomin1 (23 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			You know I have read each and every one of these Armas threads.

I think some posters need to realise everyone can read your comments, you are making yourself seem stupid.
People posting nonsense and seeming to be completely unaware they are showing their ignorance.

It would be wise to remember that a variety of people read this forum.
		
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Very ambiguous post there!! Lol! Not sure being that vague will help OP!


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## Auslander (23 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			You know I have read each and every one of these Armas threads.

I think some posters need to realise everyone can read your comments, you are making yourself seem stupid.
People posting nonsense and seeming to be completely unaware they are showing their ignorance.

It would be wise to remember that a variety of people read this forum.
		
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It's all a matter of perception though. Judging by your previous responses, the people you think are ignorant are the people who have supported James and the trainer. Not mentioning any names, but a lot of people whose depth of experience is very obvious from their posts.


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## Auslander (23 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			I am sure whoever my post is aimed at will know. Its unkind to start pointing fingers.
		
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Its not clear at all - either factor could be viewed as ignorant by the opposing side.


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## Auslander (23 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			Indeed Auslander what on earth gave you that idea?!?!
		
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Err - ALL your previous posts on the Armas threads?


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## Cinnamontoast (23 August 2013)

James, you must be famous! 1717 views since 8pm!! :eek3:


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## Auslander (23 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			Really? I am surprised you came to that conclusion.
		
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Why? They were pretty full of negativity about every aspect of the training/trainer


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## showpony (23 August 2013)

Ok so here goes from a Novice perspective..... He still does NOT look sound behind..
re BTV I think he is one of the types that will always be like this - though more long, low stretch work may improve it...... get Jumping lol - Dressage is not for every horse and you may find he will excel at it


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## Cinnamontoast (23 August 2013)

Armas said:



			Welcome back to the forum new name same old style some things never change. If you can't see the progress and the improvements they I suggest it is you who have a lack of understanding.
		
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Again? So dumb!


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## Moomin1 (23 August 2013)

Do you know what, some people on this forum need to get a grip. There are animals out there SERIOUSLY neglected.  This horse is merely evading the contact.  The trainer has made progress, doesn't matter how small, she has made progress.


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## Auslander (23 August 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Do you know what, some people on this forum need to get a grip. There are animals out there SERIOUSLY neglected.  This horse is merely evading the contact.  The trainer has made progress, doesn't matter how small, she has made progress.
		
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Absolutely! My own horse was forced to wear a grazing muzzle for the first time  today. Now, in his book, THAT is abuse! He'll go round with his nose on his chest and a smile on his face all day, but deprive him of the ability to inhale food...


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## PorkChop (23 August 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Do you know what, some people on this forum need to get a grip. There are animals out there SERIOUSLY neglected.  This horse is merely evading the contact.  The trainer has made progress, doesn't matter how small, she has made progress.
		
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Hear, hear!


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## showpony (23 August 2013)

Agree BUT Armus may be happier with a different direction???



LJR said:



			Hear, hear!
		
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## Moomin1 (23 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			Yes Moomin we all quite agree with you,

but Armas does post these videos asking for comments so comments he will get.

If Armas wanted us to concentrate on the seriously neglected animals maybe he shouldn't do such a thorough job of posting his videos.

but of course I bow to your superior knowledge.


and a little quote that I feel is appropriate
&#8226;"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room."
		
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Ridiculous post.


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## DabDab (23 August 2013)

I'm confused goldenmint - your points on this thread are about as vague as a white sheep in the fog


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## milliepops (23 August 2013)

Auslander said:



			Absolutely! My own horse was forced to wear a grazing muzzle for the first time  today. Now, in his book, THAT is abuse! He'll go round with his nose on his chest and a smile on his face all day, but deprive him of the ability to inhale food...
		
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Better not tell anyone about the abuse resulting from my helpfully attempting to combine a fly mask with a grazing muzzle which resulted in mini static shocks every time I tried to catch my horse! 

Damn synthetic fibres!!


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## Pigeon (24 August 2013)

Yes he is behind the vertical, and it is not how I would ride one of mine. 

But he does look relaxed for the most part, I wouldn't say there is any degree of cruelty going on here, in fact he probably finds it easier (and therefore more enjoyable) to trot round like that than work properly into the bridle. She is a fairly quiet rider compared to many I see, so I've no doubt he's putting himself there. However, this is an incorrect way of going, and I don't see much attempt on her part to correct it.

The thing I do find surprising is her emphasis on collection. For pretty much the whole video he was not stepping through well, or even tracking up in trot. A spanish horse finds it easy to compact his neck and collect. A relaxed longer stride would be my primary goal with him, and I would have thought the first thing a pro would try to achieve?


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## Shysmum (24 August 2013)

I think perhaps these threads have long run their course ? I'm only interested in what Hersus is up to now. Sorry.


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## Moomin1 (24 August 2013)

Shysmum said:



			I think perhaps these threads have long run their course ? I'm only interested in what Hersus is up to now. Sorry.
		
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Well in that case the answer is simple. Only open the Hersus threads


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## Queenbee (24 August 2013)

Armas... I had enough 2 months ago... No offence but stop posting and subjecting us to such visual torture or give your horse q bleeding break and then gt the Portuguese rider with half a brain to ride your horse for you since you apparently can't ride him yourself!!


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## Queenbee (24 August 2013)

Sorry armas... Now your videos make me sick... That's all. You said you would assess and adapt, you couldn't care less about armas, you are blindly plodding on with the most ineffectual and god awfully damaging  rider possible! Shocking!!!


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## tonkatoy (24 August 2013)

Queenbee said:



			Sorry armas... Now your videos make me sick... That's all. You said you would assess and adapt, you couldn't care less about armas, you are blindly plodding on with the most ineffectual and god awfully damaging  rider possible! Shocking!!!
		
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Quite unnecessary!!!!!!!!


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## zigzag (24 August 2013)

Queenbee said:



			Armas... I had enough 2 months ago... No offence but stop posting and subjecting us to such visual torture or give your horse q bleeding break and then gt the Portuguese rider with half a brain to ride your horse for you since you apparently can't ride him yourself!!
		
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If you don't like it, don't open the thread, how rude!!


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## Auslander (24 August 2013)

Queenbee said:



			Armas... I had enough 2 months ago... No offence but stop posting and subjecting us to such visual torture or give your horse q bleeding break and then gt the Portuguese rider with half a brain to ride your horse for you since you apparently can't ride him yourself!!
		
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Queenbee said:



			Sorry armas... Now your videos make me sick... That's all. You said you would assess and adapt, you couldn't care less about armas, you are blindly plodding on with the most ineffectual and god awfully damaging  rider possible! Shocking!!!
		
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Wow - obnoxious posts of the week. Love how you can dish it out packaged up in the "I'm not nasty, I'm just blunt and honest, and all I care about is the poor horse" packaging - but woe betide anyone who criticises you, your horse, or your own methods. I would be ashamed of myself if I was that rude to someone. Not cool. Not cool at all.


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## Goldenstar (24 August 2013)

Auslander said:



			Wow - obnoxious posts of the week. Love how you can dish it out packaged up in the "I'm not nasty, I'm just blunt and honest, and all I care about is the poor horse" packaging - but woe betide anyone who criticises you, your horse, or your own methods. I would be ashamed of myself if I was that rude to someone. Not cool. Not cool at all.
		
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Agree rude and out of order last I looked we not compelled to look at any thread ,if you don't like the thread Queenbee simply dont read it .


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## ellie11987 (24 August 2013)

Queenbee said:



			Armas... I had enough 2 months ago... No offence but stop posting and subjecting us to such visual torture or give your horse q bleeding break and then gt the Portuguese rider with half a brain to ride your horse for you since you apparently can't ride him yourself!!
		
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Queenbee said:



			Sorry armas... Now your videos make me sick... That's all. You said you would assess and adapt, you couldn't care less about armas, you are blindly plodding on with the most ineffectual and god awfully damaging  rider possible! Shocking!!!
		
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Out of order!!! Very unnecessary and rude!


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## ellie11987 (24 August 2013)

Auslander said:



			Wow - obnoxious posts of the week. Love how you can dish it out packaged up in the "I'm not nasty, I'm just blunt and honest, and all I care about is the poor horse" packaging - but woe betide anyone who criticises you, your horse, or your own methods. I would be ashamed of myself if I was that rude to someone. Not cool. Not cool at all.
		
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Hear, hear!


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## Armas (24 August 2013)

Queenbee said:



			Armas... I had enough 2 months ago... No offence but stop posting and subjecting us to such visual torture or give your horse q bleeding break and then gt the Portuguese rider with half a brain to ride your horse for you since you apparently can't ride him yourself!!
		
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Sorry who are you to tell me what I can and cannot post on a horse forum, if you don't like my posts then don't read them simple. If you think this is torture then you need to escape la la land. I ride my horse week in week out but thank you for your insight.



Queenbee said:



			Sorry armas... Now your videos make me sick... That's all. You said you would assess and adapt, you couldn't care less about armas, you are blindly plodding on with the most ineffectual and god awfully damaging  rider possible! Shocking!!!
		
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If the videos make you sick, I would again respectfully suggest don't watch them. I am happy with the progress I am happy with the trainer. As for your comments that I could not careless about Armas have you been on the ardent spirits ? The only shocking thing is how rude and disgusting your post is. 
Please would you be so kind as to post some videos of you training a sharp horse so we can have a look to see how well you ride & train. Odd are that will not happen.

I hope your vitriolic post has made you happy.


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## Goldenstar (24 August 2013)

Armas ignore her.


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## Vindaloo (24 August 2013)

Don't thing I've posted on these threads before, have watched many if not all vids and the only thing I am going to say is she has a rather snatchy inside and sometimes outside rein.  It's almost as if she does it without realising, worst thing is, she does it just at the precise moment he goes to go in front of the vertical.  She gets him all relaxed but then gives a little backwards pull and effectively stops him reaching properly forward.

He is not on a consistent contact, it's loose, snatch, loose.  Or then tight, especially into trot, which is where I generally stop watching since I really can't stop looking for the snatch.

Possibly this stops further into the session, presumably when he is more accepting of the contact (should a consistent one be given at that point) Therefore rendering my observation totally innapropriate.

Just the musings of a total amateur, kind of out of the mouth of babes if you like.

Did like brown boots riding him, preferred him to this one in my humble and inexperienced opinion.

Very sweet horse, he has made me look at a PRE as a breed when I finally get home.  I really like him.


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## ester (24 August 2013)

I like it at 15.59 when she goes into forwards seat after he has had a stressy canter moment (she was poss going to ask him for a change?) and then when he goes back to trot he stretches right out (but then gets asked to come up again). I do think he is looking different though. 

I still can't decide what I think, partly because I respect AdorableAlice's opinion (and would quite like to see her friend/rider on armas) and also Auslander and Milliepops... and a fair few more who have commented both ways so I think I've given up thinking on it .


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## Purple18 (24 August 2013)

Auslander said:



			Corrected that typo for you
		
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 i'm saying my point  you have yours but don't start pulling me in a stupid fight 


Moomin1 said:



			Hahahaa! This is such a funny post.

You start out by saying how we all must accept that we aren't all going to agree etc.  Yet you then say that you won't bother 'wasting' your time posting because James ignores it and it is pointless. So in other words, unless James agrees with YOUR opinion, then it is pointless anyone posting.
		
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it's not just my opinion though is it ? how many times before have people have said he looks unhappy uncomfortable lame etc etc there's many that think differently in no way am I saying my opinion is better than any other. but really what is the point in a opinions that are said over and over again they don't like what they see . I will not sit here and say Armas is working well and looks good because that would be a lie. I'm saying what I see.  I honestly have no clue why James is still posting the sessions when all he gets in his view is negative( truthful ) posts back. every thread will all say the same things and nothing changes. if your looking for praise James I think you need another forum...


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## Armas (24 August 2013)

Purple18 said:



			i'm saying my point  you have yours but don't start pulling me in a stupid fight 


it's not just my opinion though is it ? how many times before have people have said he looks unhappy uncomfortable lame etc etc there's many that think differently in no way am I saying my opinion is better than any other. but really what is the point in a opinions that are said over and over again they don't like what they see . I will not sit here and say Armas is working well and looks good because that would be a lie. I'm saying what I see.  I honestly have no clue why James is still posting the sessions when all he gets in his view is negative( truthful ) posts back. every thread will all say the same things and nothing changes. if your looking for praise James I think you need another forum...
		
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The overriding opinion that counts for me is the vet and the trainer who both are working with me and the horse.
Both feel he is not lame but week behind and needs to build muscle I agree with that.
I post because its a forum and I am free to do so. I post because its interesting and many H&H have asked me to continue posting.
Why would every thread say exactly the same thing ? No two sessions are identical Long reining lunging pole work collected work etc.
If you don't like my threads don't read them. I would never expect praise but thanks for the dig.


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## Auslander (24 August 2013)

ester said:



			I still can't decide what I think, partly because I respect AdorableAlice's opinion (and would quite like to see her friend/rider on armas) and also Auslander and Milliepops... and a fair few more who have commented both ways so I think I've given up thinking on it .
		
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I also respect AA's opinion - and she was perfectly polite in the way she expressed it, similar to Nikis post. I have no beef with that, and in private, I have given James a pretty hard time about aspects of Armas' training that I haven't agreed with. I do think this girl is getting somewhere, and is only the good bits were shown, I suspect the reaction would be different. James has chosen to show everything, which is a pretty brave decision. The posts I get cross about are the ones where the poster is just out to have a dig at James, or to carry on regurgitating the same old stuff (usually copied from someone else anyway) I just don't see the point of posting when the poster has no interest in commenting on the improvements - and is just using it as an excuse to keep banging the same old drum. Anyone who can't see that there is some really good work in amongst the bad stuff is pretty shortsighted really.
The horse doesn't go in a way that I find particularly pleasing to watch, and the rider doesn't ride him in a way that totally suits him - but she has improved him, and is continuing to improve him. It's a really interesting process to watch, and I think its sad that some people are determined not to see that they are getting there.


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## Auslander (24 August 2013)

Purple18 said:



			i'm saying my point  you have yours but don't start pulling me in a stupid fight
		
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It's ok darling - I'm a lover, not a fighter


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## Purple18 (24 August 2013)

But why if  he isn't lame why would time and time  again many experience people keep saying something just doesn't look right. how can they all be wrong?  fine if one person was saying it but check back all your threads and count how many users have said something about it.

even though something different  long reining etc may be being done in different session the same sort of comments are made.


How can anyone avoid them there right at the top of the new posts most of the time.

I check in to see if something might have clicked and  you and your trainer actually see what a lot of us see.

why keep asking for comments when you already know what the answers will be ? if certain posters want to watch then you have your facebook page why put yourself through this every time. I don't understand why when a lot of the time there's a fight


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## Armas (24 August 2013)

Armas said:



			Another mostly positive day and still heading in a positive   direction. The collected work is starting come together.
His shape is filling and muscling up nicely.

[video=youtube;46C0VoIiMfU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46C0VoIiMfU&sns=em[/video]
		
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Purple18 said:



			But why if  he isn't lame why would time and time  again many experience people keep saying something just doesn't look right. how can they all be wrong?  fine if one person was saying it but check back all your threads and count how many users have said something about it.

even though something different  long reining etc may be being done in different session the same sort of comments are made.


How can anyone avoid them there right at the top of the new posts most of the time.

I check in to see if something might have clicked and  you and your trainer actually see what a lot of us see.

why keep asking for comments when you already know what the answers will be ? if certain posters want to watch then you have your facebook page why put yourself through this every time. I don't understand why when a lot of the time there's a fight
		
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Its easy put me on block. Where exactly in this post did I ask for comments ? Again your statement is flawed. Are you now a moderator to say who can and can not post on a public forum ? The last time I looked you were not.


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## Auslander (24 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			**Anyone who can't see that there is some really good work in amongst the bad stuff is pretty shortsighted really.**

But you see Auslander thats your opinion and your not right! Its quite simple really you don't know what your talking about and you are making yourself out to be a muppet each time you spill your rubbish.

I actually feel quite sorry for you, you don't seem to be able to see that the more you say the more ignorant you seem.

The sessions are not getting better, the horse is still uncomfortable, the rider is ok at best and is still not listening to the horse or adjusting her way of riding to benefit the horse/get a better tune from the horse. She should not be charging for her time she should be grateful james has given her the chance to ride his horse. 

Then people like you come on here saying how the trainer is improving the horse and things are looking better which is unkind to James as he feels jusitied in using this 'trainer' and nothing ever imporves for the horse.

Its the blind leading the blind but seeming to think if they shout loudest they must be right.
		
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Darn it! Busted! My career is over!


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## Purple18 (24 August 2013)

Armas said:



			Its easy put me on block. Where exactly in this post did I ask for comments ? Again your statement is flawed. Are you now a moderator to say who can and can not post on a public forum ? The last time I looked you were not.
		
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I haven't even watched your newest video I don't need to look I will still say and see the same I have every time before. every post you post you are inviting comments you wouldn't post if it wasn't. 

 You seem very close minded to anyone's opinion  your keeping this trainer your never going to listen to the concerns shown. have you noticed how many people that commented before are not here now ? were all fed up and tired I think your sessions have run there course. I'm sad to say  I hoped the outcome would have been brighter.


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## Auslander (24 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			Bless.....
		
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Going to have a go at the numerous, very experienced people who have also acknowledged the improvements, or is just me in the firing line?


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## hihosilver (24 August 2013)

I think we should all stop watching these videos. I see a beautiful horse in the field who is moving through his back and does not have his head stuck on his chest. He looks happy and sound. Then I see another video of the same horse head on chest not tracking up at all. Stiff on both reins behind. I have to check that this is the same beautiful free moving horse in the field...it is something is clearly very wrong.


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## Allover (24 August 2013)

hihosilver said:



			I think we should all stop watching these videos. I see a beautiful horse in the field who is moving through his back and does not have his head stuck on his chest. He looks happy and sound. Then I see another video of the same horse head on chest not tracking up at all. Stiff on both reins behind. I have to check that this is the same beautiful free moving horse in the field...it is something is clearly very wrong.
		
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I only watch them in the hope that things are really getting better. Just call me disappointed from Herts


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## Armas (24 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			**Anyone who can't see that there is some really good work in amongst the bad stuff is pretty shortsighted really.**

But you see Auslander thats your opinion and your not right! Its quite simple really you don't know what your talking about and you are making yourself out to be a muppet each time you spill your rubbish.

I actually feel quite sorry for you, you don't seem to be able to see that the more you say the more ignorant you seem.

The sessions are not getting better, the horse is still uncomfortable, the rider is ok at best and is still not listening to the horse or adjusting her way of riding to benefit the horse/get a better tune from the horse. She should not be charging for her time she should be grateful james has given her the chance to ride his horse. 

Then people like you come on here saying how the trainer is improving the horse and things are looking better which is unkind to James as he feels jusitied in using this 'trainer' and nothing ever imporves for the horse.

Its the blind leading the blind but seeming to think if they shout loudest they must be right.
		
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What do you get out of being so rude. There are a number of well respected posters that are of the same opinion as Auslander why are you picking on her ? Thats another form of cyber bullying.
I respect Auslander, however at the end of the day the choice in trainer is my choice no one else's.


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## Goldenstar (24 August 2013)

I do think a bit of perspective is in order here.
This is a horse who came to this trainer with the BTV evasion well and turely learnt .if JAmes wishes to post on here that's apsolutly fine it's his choice .
I laughed out loud at the poster a couple back who said we should all stop watching the videos I am sorry but frankly I don't need anyone telling me what to watch and not watch read or not read comment on or not comment on .i will do want I want when I want to ,how I want to.
If you don't like the threads don't read them but if you don't like others reading them watching videos whatever well your doomed to disappointment you can't be in charge of what others do on the forum.
There are loads of subjects that bore me witless I ignore them.


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## ozpoz (24 August 2013)

Amandap's videos posted on the "ugly" thread, especially the one entitled 'walk' will help to explain what people are seeing and why they are not making positive comments - really worth a look.


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## JFTDWS (24 August 2013)

Auslander said:



			Going to have a go at the numerous, very experienced people who have also acknowledged the improvements, or is just me in the firing line?
		
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Just you.  You're special 

I don't read all the threads, or watch all the videos, but I do find them interesting.  Very few interesting threads on this forum at the moment, so I'd rather they didn't stop


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## Goldenstar (24 August 2013)

ozpoz said:



			Amandap's videos posted on the "ugly" thread, especially the one entitled 'walk' will help to explain what people are seeing and why they are not making positive comments - really worth a look.
		
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From my point of view I do understand the comments but thanks anyway.


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## doriangrey (24 August 2013)

FWIW I think James should be allowed to post what he wants and people should reply how they want - but within the realms of decency. What is the point of second guessing why he puts up the videos - his reasons for doing so should be respected.  Why should they be received any differently from any other poster?  What I don't get is the big divide here.  I don't do dressage so I can't comment on his training etc, but I am a horse owner and I don't see an unhappy horse.  I see a horse presented with challenges and trying to overcome them.  If Armas was so badly compromised, surely he would be getting worse and worse and resisting more?  He's working pretty hard, if he is lame then why isn't he more lame?  Can someone try and explain to me how this is damaging to Armas - because unless he's buted to the eyeballs, I just don't see it.


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## BenjaminButton (24 August 2013)

I'm new on here but from what I can gather I think this is a classic case of each to their own. Why does everyone have to comment on how other people train their horses? It might not be your cup of tea but at the end of the day, if that's how armas wants to train his horse and can see a difference then who are we to judge?


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## nikkimariet (24 August 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Do you know what, some people on this forum need to get a grip. There are animals out there SERIOUSLY neglected.  This horse is merely evading the contact.  The trainer has made progress, doesn't matter how small, she has made progress.
		
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Christ alive, for the first time EVER, Moomin1.... I agree with you!!!!!!

Also agree with milliepops 100%. The whole picture is coming together. 

Re: Lolo's thread about improvement/looking pretty/ugly.... You have to look at the bigger picture. Teaching canters piri's for example, when not established the horse often comes above the contact, looks a bit hollow and the overall picture isn't....nice... But, when you take it apart: is he stepping under more, is he taking more weight behind, is the back softer, is the neck soft, can you keep the activity..... It takes time and patience and there is always room for improvement.

I like what I see, especially when I think back to the first few videos. The best bit for me is that is does not run from the leg and scoot off away from the rider, he's starting to show some trust. Which is great


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## Spring Feather (24 August 2013)

ester said:



			I still can't decide what I think, partly because I respect AdorableAlice's opinion (and would quite like to see her friend/rider on armas) and also Auslander and Milliepops... and a fair few more who have commented both ways so I think I've given up thinking on it .
		
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I know what I think (and see) irrespective of what any others say.  I've never been one for commenting much on these threads but I do still watch the videos, always with a faint glimmer of hope.  A glimmer that is almost always dashed, however I wouldn't make nasty comments as it's not for me to say.  James is happy with how his horse looks and is happy with the rider and that's all that matters.  The fact that some people wouldn't let that rider to come within an inch of any of their horses is not relevant in the slightest.  

If the Armas posts upset posters then the best piece of advice is this, if you aren't able to frown quietly and sit on your hands, then maybe it's better for your psyche if you don't open the threads.


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## Always Henesy (24 August 2013)

Auslander said:



			Darn it! Busted! My career is over!
		
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Cripes Aus.....what to do now eh?

Fantastic result for Valegro though eh?


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## ester (24 August 2013)

I only meant in the way that at this sort of level and with this sort of horse I'm very much trying to take these threads as informative/a lesson from other peoples's comments rather than make any sort of judgement myself- I just don't know enough. And it's nice to take in other people's views of a situation. I hope that makes sense.


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## Spring Feather (24 August 2013)

ester said:



			I only meant in the way that at this sort of level and with this sort of horse I'm very much trying to take these threads as informative/a lesson from other peoples's comments rather than make any sort of judgement myself- I just don't know enough. And it's nice to take in other people's views of a situation. I hope that makes sense.
		
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Yes I understood what you meant :smile3:  I was just kind of elaborating on it and went for a little wander in another direction.


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## Auslander (24 August 2013)

Always Henesy said:



			Cripes Aus.....what to do now eh?

Fantastic result for Valegro though eh? 

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Hey Ho. Might get a couple of goldfish instead


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## shortstuff99 (24 August 2013)

Auslander said:



			Hey Ho. Might get a couple of goldfish instead
		
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And keep them in a water trough?


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## ester (24 August 2013)

stop trying to cause trouble SS


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## Hollycatt (25 August 2013)

I have watched these threads from the beginning, and there has been improvement in many ways  I think OP has been very brave to continue to post them and I do enjoy the comments at the end. I think the videos are a good teaching tool and it is kind of OP to share them.

First the good 

*Armas looks more in proportion - his head no longer looks large and too big for his neck and body (there is a caveat to this!)
*His transitions are a lot sharper and more balanced
*He is working better for his rider and listening more
*He is marginally swinging better through his body, though trot in particular is still very stiff, stilted and tense
*At times, often when more advanced work is asked of him, he uncurls, swings through his back and can create a very pleasing picture

BUT - the bad has to be his continued work very much behind the vertical. It ruins everything else. Most of the time Armas is hollow with his legs trailing out behind and very stiff through the back. Although progress is being made in some areas, the trainer does not seem to be addressing the real problem, which is a very hard one to fix.  I know OP you said she is addressing it by maintaining the contact, but this is not working. He is no better than he was at the beginning of the sessions. He is in fact worse, as he is building up a lot of the wrong muscles in his neck which is counter-productive. The more muscle he builds - and he is noticeably building muscle - the more he will find it easy and comfortable to remain behind the vertical. He developed the evasion to avoid working correctly, now he has more reason than ever not to work properly as he is increasingly comfortable behind the vertical. To continue to work him this way means that when the day comes to fix the problem - and it has to come if you ever want to compete with him as you have previously said you would like to - then much of the work that is being done now has to be thrown out the window and all that incorrect muscle development reversed. As he is he would be lucky to gain 2's or 3's in a novice dressage test, particularly as when he gets tense he REALLY curls up and puts his chin to his chest.

I am not a good dressage rider like the trainer you have, but I think she is ignoring the basics and that may be just to please you OP. Perhaps if you left Armas there on livery and did not watch the sessions, but instead came back in 6 weeks say, you would see a real difference in the right direction. I've noticed OP that you do like to watch Armas do more advanced work. You love to see your beautiful horse do half steps and work towards passage - and why not - he is gorgeous. But it is not correct work and it is not actually what he needs to solve his problems. 

One of the aims of dressage is supposed to be about building the horse athletically and allowing him to have a longer working life through being more efficient in the way he carries his rider. Armas is stiff, hollow and at times looks unlevel. If you want a flashy horse to show off to uneducated friends then you will have this - but do not be surprised if he develops lameness issues and perhaps does not have such a long working life. You clearly love your horse very much and he has a fantastic home and life by the looks of it   Rome wasn't built in a day, and it will take time to solve Armas' problems. I am confused as to why the trainer continues to work him incorrectly instead of going back to basics and ironing out the problem, and would be interested to hear her reasons.


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## FfionWinnie (25 August 2013)

Great post Hollycatt.


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## Caol Ila (25 August 2013)

Excellent post, Hollycatt.  Said what I was trying to say, only so much better.


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## Daytona (25 August 2013)

Nice horse, looks like a typical spainishy (not sure if that's a word) type horse to me , ridden like how they ride them over there.  

Most I've  seen ridden all quite happily go along kissing there chest. They don't seem fazed by it what so ever. 

Wouldn't dare comment on the rider as she looks like she is far better than me so feel its out of place to pass judgment when she does a much better job than I would.


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## Auslander (25 August 2013)

Hollycatt said:



			I have watched these threads from the beginning, and there has been improvement in many ways  I think OP has been very brave to continue to post them and I do enjoy the comments at the end. I think the videos are a good teaching tool and it is kind of OP to share them.

First the good 

*Armas looks more in proportion - his head no longer looks large and too big for his neck and body (there is a caveat to this!)
*His transitions are a lot sharper and more balanced
*He is working better for his rider and listening more
*He is marginally swinging better through his body, though trot in particular is still very stiff, stilted and tense
*At times, often when more advanced work is asked of him, he uncurls, swings through his back and can create a very pleasing picture

BUT - the bad has to be his continued work very much behind the vertical. It ruins everything else. Most of the time Armas is hollow with his legs trailing out behind and very stiff through the back. Although progress is being made in some areas, the trainer does not seem to be addressing the real problem, which is a very hard one to fix.  I know OP you said she is addressing it by maintaining the contact, but this is not working. He is no better than he was at the beginning of the sessions. He is in fact worse, as he is building up a lot of the wrong muscles in his neck which is counter-productive. The more muscle he builds - and he is noticeably building muscle - the more he will find it easy and comfortable to remain behind the vertical. He developed the evasion to avoid working correctly, now he has more reason than ever not to work properly as he is increasingly comfortable behind the vertical. To continue to work him this way means that when the day comes to fix the problem - and it has to come if you ever want to compete with him as you have previously said you would like to - then much of the work that is being done now has to be thrown out the window and all that incorrect muscle development reversed. As he is he would be lucky to gain 2's or 3's in a novice dressage test, particularly as when he gets tense he REALLY curls up and puts his chin to his chest.

I am not a good dressage rider like the trainer you have, but I think she is ignoring the basics and that may be just to please you OP. Perhaps if you left Armas there on livery and did not watch the sessions, but instead came back in 6 weeks say, you would see a real difference in the right direction. I've noticed OP that you do like to watch Armas do more advanced work. You love to see your beautiful horse do half steps and work towards passage - and why not - he is gorgeous. But it is not correct work and it is not actually what he needs to solve his problems. 

One of the aims of dressage is supposed to be about building the horse athletically and allowing him to have a longer working life through being more efficient in the way he carries his rider. Armas is stiff, hollow and at times looks unlevel. If you want a flashy horse to show off to uneducated friends then you will have this - but do not be surprised if he develops lameness issues and perhaps does not have such a long working life. You clearly love your horse very much and he has a fantastic home and life by the looks of it   Rome wasn't built in a day, and it will take time to solve Armas' problems. I am confused as to why the trainer continues to work him incorrectly instead of going back to basics and ironing out the problem, and would be interested to hear her reasons.
		
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Absolutely brilliant post Hollycatt. Educated, Reasoned, Balanced - and a perfect example of how to offer criticism in a way that desn't cause offence, and inspires thought. Hat off to you!


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## fabikat (25 August 2013)

Well 'Hi folks',

This is my first time posting after much time lurking and taking great interest in the varied training/trainers of Armas. I have a few times spoken with James via pm to avoid getting in any slanging matches here on hho though.
Just want to say that I am totally in agreement with Hollycat.

I too have an andaluz horse (unpapered stallion) that had his initial training by a 'typical macho spaniard' so am well aware of the problems that can arise from this type of training. 
My horse can be ridden hard and sharp and 'look the part' if you want to try and impress at the spanish ferias but two years ago when I bought him back into work after a 5 year lay-off I decided that I wanted to try and correct this because I was interested in competing (online as there are very few competitions where I live here in spain)
I am a capable but not particularly good dressage rider so it has taken a lot of time and patience on my part initially working alone, and in the last 6 months with a little help from a trainer. My lad had (still has if not ridden with thought) a tendency to btv, curl up and piaffe when he found anything too hard, exciting and/or stressful and always wanted to work at double speed.


I confess that sometimes watching the videos makes me feel very uncomfortable, but then at other times I see a glimmer of hope. I would not want to comment too much without haven ridden Armas  but I do wonder if there may be another way to approach his ridden issues , regardless of how good or bad the current trainer is.

I sincerely wish James luck in his quest as he obviously adores Armas and is very proud of him.
These are only my personal thoughts, I am not any great rider/trainer and who knows I may one day be brave enough to seek some advice/thoughts here myself

...and btw James I respect your thoughts and beliefs, you need to do what you feel is right for you and Armas as it is you living and dealing with it day-to-day and not other folk and please keep posting as there are obviously many people with a keen interest in your horse ( I am sure my horse and I would never produce such an outpouring of emotions from so many) ....


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## nikicb (25 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			**Anyone who can't see that there is some really good work in amongst the bad stuff is pretty shortsighted really.**

*But you see Auslander thats your opinion and your not right!* Its quite simple really you don't know what your talking about and you are making yourself out to be a muppet each time you spill your rubbish.

I actually feel quite sorry for you, you don't seem to be able to see that the more you say the more ignorant you seem.
		
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Posting opinions about how a trainer is working with a horse is one thing, but posting personal attacks on other forum members is really not on.

If you had perhaps posted.....

*But you see Auslander thats (sic) your opinion and I don't agree with you!*

it would be a little different.  But having a different opinion from someone doesn't mean the other person is wrong.


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## Armas (25 August 2013)

I agree 100% with this ^^^^

Did you my PM ?


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## nikicb (25 August 2013)

Yes, will respond in a mo.


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## Auslander (25 August 2013)

nikicb said:



			Posting opinions about how a trainer is working with a horse is one thing, but posting personal attacks on other forum members is really not on.

If you had perhaps posted.....

*But you see Auslander thats (sic) your opinion and I don't agree with you!*

it would be a little different.  But having a different opinion from someone doesn't mean the other person is wrong.
		
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Thank you Niki! The personal attack didn't bother me particularly, as its just another opinion, and opinions are like .......'s. I was pretty annoyed at the tone of the post though!


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## DollyPentreath (25 August 2013)

Pigeon said:



			Yes he is behind the vertical, and it is not how I would ride one of mine. 

But he does look relaxed for the most part, I wouldn't say there is any degree of cruelty going on here, in fact he probably finds it easier (and therefore more enjoyable) to trot round like that than work properly into the bridle. She is a fairly quiet rider compared to many I see, so I've no doubt he's putting himself there. However, this is an incorrect way of going, and I don't see much attempt on her part to correct it.

The thing I do find surprising is her emphasis on collection. For pretty much the whole video he was not stepping through well, or even tracking up in trot. A spanish horse finds it easy to compact his neck and collect. A relaxed longer stride would be my primary goal with him, and I would have thought the first thing a pro would try to achieve?
		
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Pigeon's post is spot on for me. Yes, he's a little short in the neck and predisposed to going a certain way, but I feel the the trainer is trying to run before the horse can walk. I would like to see more rhythm, suppleness, straightness and impulsion into a contact. Then comes collection. The poster who commented that he would only achieve low marks in a novice test is correct.. Therefore, personally, I would be trying to achieve a free-er frame with some swing before trying to collect. 

That being said, I don't see cruelty, I see a horse being trained in a way I would not want. Not my horse though!!


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## Hollycatt (25 August 2013)

Awww - thank you Ffion, Caol, Auslander and Fabikat (great name BTW and welcome to the boards).  I will be really interested in seeing Armas in another 2 months time or even perhaps in spring depending on how much training he gets over the winter. I hope OP keeps posing his videos, both the ridden one and the at liberty ones


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## DabDab (25 August 2013)

DollyPentreath said:



			Pigeon's post is spot on for me. Yes, he's a little short in the neck and predisposed to going a certain way, but I feel the the trainer is trying to run before the horse can walk. I would like to see more rhythm, suppleness, straightness and impulsion into a contact. Then comes collection. The poster who commented that he would only achieve low marks in a novice test is correct.. Therefore, personally, I would be trying to achieve a free-er frame with some swing before trying to collect. 

That being said, I don't see cruelty, I see a horse being trained in a way I would not want. Not my horse though!! 

Click to expand...

I think the trainer has been making attempts to improve these areas of Armas' way of going, and indeed I think she has made some improvements. But I think she is constantly thwarted in making considerable progress by Armas' contact issues. And I think that at this point, after almost a month, it is fair to say that it seems like this trainer is unsure about how best to do this, and I think you're right that at this point it would probably be sensible of her to take a step back from some of the work she's been doing with him and to try a different tact. 

Up until now she appears to have employed a sort of refined 'block and drop' tactic, where she blocks he (naturally fast) forward movement to try and bring his back end underneath him and then drops (or releases if that sounds better) him forwards, in an attempt, I assume, to bring that movement through his body. I think this has very much improved Armas' acceptance of her aids, but has done little to improve his overall way of going. 

I think Armas' attitude to work has improved dramatically with this trainer and that should enable her to change the training regime now to tackle the contact issues, rather than hoping it will resolve itself. This is all just my opinion though, and I must confess that I don't understand at least 50% of what the trainer does, so she may know something I don't, and have a plan in mind that I have no experience of.


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## Armas (26 August 2013)

There have been some very salient questions asked in this thread, thus I have put some of the comments that sprung to mind to the trainer.
This is her response.

[video=youtube;cfwtRTuBAxY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfwtRTuBAxY&feature=youtu.be[/video]


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## milliepops (26 August 2013)

I really like all of her comments and I think she's a pretty good sport to continue answering them when it's clear she's not just talking to you as an owner 

I think there's probably a bit of a discrepancy between what the horse looks like on the video and what he really feels like.  For me that's why I'm *always* trying to give her the benefit of the doubt because the feel is so much more significant than the appearance. When she says he's not really into the contact when he is offering to reach out more .. well, she's the one on board and only she can judge that for sure.  

Also the comments about using collected work as a tool rather than for the sake of teaching him to passage, for example, are really good (and what I thought she'd say tbh!). I never get the impression that she is aiming to produce a test-ready advanced horse :tongue3:  I do think that is working because when she rides out of a collected bit he appears to produce the best working trot/canter of the whole session.


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## Goldenstar (26 August 2013)

I agree with Millipops that she's great to be so open and clearly she will have read the threads( I would not be able to stop having a peek ) so good on her .
What she says is spot on its exactly how the horse looks ,its easy when watching a tape of a whole session to look at moments when you could say the rider could have done x or y and it would have been better but you can say that about 99.9 % of sessions with 99.9% of riders.
I would be so curious to feel what Armas feels like when you are on top ( because I have watched a lot of tapes ) because sometimes the feel from on the horse is so different from the feel watching a horse and on a iPad you are even more remote.
I continue to enjoy watching this journey .


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## lula (26 August 2013)

i love these videos, please keep posting. i learn such a lot.

I've seen the bun fights on the Armas videos that do occur and ive come to the conclusion its just too easy to crtisise from an armchair. As both the posters above me have already pointed out, sitting on a horse can give you a unique perspective and insight than we cant have watching 'from the ground'.

 Horses that have learned and learned well, how to avoid the contact by going BTW can be one of the hardest evasions to cure once established.

I like Virginie, she may not be perfect but she's not at all bad and must be quite someone to not mind the whole of the UK horsey forum population picking her riding apart on a regular basis. I sometimes wonder if you should be paying HER for that James


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## Armas (26 August 2013)

It is very easy to judge and as Goldenstar stated its very easy to say you should do x y z. However it is Virginie that is in the saddle and has him in hand. I am happy with the progress, I am happy with the work and I am happy with the logic behind the work most importantly.
Todays session concentrated on transition whilst long reining. 

Do listen to the her comments at the end.

[video=youtube_share;hAHLEtDjR2g]http://youtu.be/hAHLEtDjR2g[/video]


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## chocolatepony (26 August 2013)

I really like that she has been open and answered the questions. I am pleased that she sees the collected work as a tool to aid engagement not an end in itself, I commented at the time that I would like to see more transitions to aid this- and sure enough she was ahead of me and had done a session today on trans.  I also think her approach to the btv problem is sensible and actually if she sorts out the back end and gets him engaged then that will hugely help. Interesting indeed!  I feel inspired to try some long lining!


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## oldie48 (26 August 2013)

Allover said:



			Have you paid any attention to the riders hands? I find the trot work is uncomfortable to watch. You seem to be blind to the fact she is pulling his nose is with almost every step he takes. She can't even let him go on a loose rein and drop his nose out - which to my eye he is begging the rider to let him do- when he is walking on a long rein. Going BTV is the riders choice not the horses.
		
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I'm sorry I can't agree with this, going BTV is an evasion, I don't feel the rider is causing this, but she may not be dealing with it very effectively, which is a different matter entirely.


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## oldie48 (26 August 2013)

lula said:



			i love these videos, please keep posting. i learn such a lot.

I've seen the bun fights on the Armas videos that do occur and ive come to the conclusion its just too easy to crtisise from an armchair. As both the posters above me have already pointed out, sitting on a horse can give you a unique perspective and insight than we cant have watching 'from the ground'.




I like Virginie, she may not be perfect but she's not at all bad and must be quite someone to not mind the whole of the UK horsey forum population picking her riding apart on a regular basis. I sometimes wonder if you should be paying HER for that James  

Click to expand...

Yes I like tham too, dealing with a horse that has learned to go BTV is really difficult whereas being an armchair critic is easy.


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## Amymay (26 August 2013)

I would love to see her ride with a shorter stirrup so that she doesn't have to rely on her hands so much. It would also enable her to get her leg on on and actually start to ride him forward into the contact. At present she is loosing her balance, and too reliant on her hands.

I don't really see an improvement.  And thw horse is quite hollow at times and resistant.


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## Auslander (26 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			The problem is she is wrong. It doesn't matter that my opinion is different to hers if she its still wrong. 

I was talking to her at the time hence why I didn't copy every other posters name that was spouting a load of rubbish. Im not bulling her, same as when she tried to take the p*** out of me she wasn't being a bully to me, just I took it on the chin and she played the 'oh i'm such a victim card'
		
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I wasn't paying the victim card. I was just interested in why it was me you had a pop at and no-one else. I've spent many many years teaching, riding and training,with a pretty reasonable record of improving people and horses, and I generally do my best to be helpful on here (except when someone winds me up - I'm only human) If you read through my previous posts, I think you'll get an idea of who I am, and what I contribute. What about you then? What makes you so infinitely superior that its ok for you to spout forth in such a disrespectful manner. I don't see much in the way of helpful contributions on here - or insights into your vast depths of equestrian knowledge.


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## Allover (26 August 2013)

oldie48 said:



			I'm sorry I can't agree with this, going BTV is an evasion, I don't feel the rider is causing this, but she may not be dealing with it very effectively, which is a different matter entirely.[/QUO

Then we shall have to agree to disagree 

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## DabDab (26 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			The problem is she is wrong. It doesn't matter that my opinion is different to hers if she its still wrong. 

I was talking to her at the time hence why I didn't copy every other posters name that was spouting a load of rubbish. Im not bulling her, same as when she tried to take the p*** out of me she wasn't being a bully to me, just I took it on the chin and she played the 'oh i'm such a victim card'
		
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Go on then Goldenmint - tell us what it was that Auslander said that was just 'wrong'. I assume I also fit into the category of others like her who are spouting rubbish so feel free to point out the error of my ways too - I am happy to be enlightened


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## Armas (26 August 2013)

Don't feed the troll !


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## DabDab (26 August 2013)

No, others have expressed their opinions, whereas you have stated that, opinion aside, Auslander is wrong. I was interested in where she went from expressing her opinion, which others may or may not agree with, to being just 'wrong'


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## Moomin1 (26 August 2013)

amymay said:



			I would love to see her ride with a shorter stirrup so that she doesn't have to rely on her hands so much. It would also enable her to get her leg on on and actually start to ride him forward into the contact. At present she is loosing her balance, and too reliant on her hands.

I don't really see an improvement.  And thw horse is quite hollow at times and resistant.
		
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I would LOVE to see you ride this horse.  You really do come across as an amazing rider.


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## Auslander (26 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			Are you being deliberately obtuse.
		
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Are you completely incapable of giving a straight answer to a perfectly reasonable question? You avoided mine too.


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## DabDab (26 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			Are you being deliberately obtuse.
		
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No, but I think you are. Throughout this thread you have made a selection of vague comments that are almost impossible to decipher any meaning from, interspersed with rude, obnoxious remarks directed at specific posters. So why don't you just spit out whatever it is that you are actually trying to say, that is of course assuming you do actually have anything of value to say at all. 

Many people have commented on these threads, whether they like the rider, don't like the rider, or, like me, sit on the fence a little bit. I respect almost all their opinions in one way or another, and find most thoughtful, well reasoned and really interesting, so I genuinely have no idea where you are coming from.


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## Auslander (26 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			The thing is you can't argue with stupid.

You are both being pedantic, I don't know what you want me to say. You are wrong with your posts about this horse and this trainer. Your opinion while still being yours, is incorrect. It might be right to you because it is 'your' opinion but what your saying is wrong.

It is very hard to explain to you when you are intent on being so pedantic.
		
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Just because you think its wrong, doesn't mean it is. I just want to know why you are so convinced that you are right, when some very experienced people on here are of the same opinion as me/Dab Dab et al? 

Tell you what. I have a PSG//Inter1 horse who is quite complicated to ride. Perhaps you'd like to put your money where your mouth is, and earn yourself some HHO credibility points by coming over to have a go on him. If you can prove that you can walk the walk, your attempts to talk the talk may meet with a more favourable response. Serious offer...


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## Auslander (26 August 2013)

And as I'm already being "pedantic" - I can freely suggest that you go and purchase a great little book called "Eats, Shoots and Leaves". It will help


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## DabDab (26 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			They are not difficult to understand if you have an ounce of intelligence or basic understanding of irony.

Go back and re read my posts you might learn something.
		
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I am many things, but stupid is not one of them. I have re read your posts from this thread and all you say is how stupid and incorrect other people are.


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## rhino (26 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			They are not difficult to understand if you have an ounce of intelligence or basic understanding of irony.

Go back and re read my posts you might learn something.
		
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Perhaps you're just not as literate as you think you are?


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## Auslander (27 August 2013)

rhino said:



			Perhaps your just not as literate as you think you are?
		
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Tweaked that for you!!


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## Hollycatt (27 August 2013)

Thanks for posting another video OP and for asking your trainer the questions we all posed. It was good of her to answers  

As Milliepops says, often the feel when you are on the horse and what it looks like can be very different, but being able to see how it looks I think is invaluable. Does the trainer watch the videos of herself riding Armas? I just wonder if she realises just how behind the vertical he actually is, particularly since on long reining it isn't so much of a problem.  Perhaps it be worth her having a lesson with her own trainer while she rides him?  I often think 2 heads are better than one, and although your trainer is a good one, no matter how good or experienced we are, having someone on the ground with a lot of experience to help us iron out problems or give us fresh ideas on how to solve problems can be very useful. 



milliepops said:



			Also the comments about using collected work as a tool rather than for the sake of teaching him to passage, for example, are really good (and what I thought she'd say tbh!). I never get the impression that she is aiming to produce a test-ready advanced horse :tongue3:  I do think that is working because when she rides out of a collected bit he appears to produce the best working trot/canter of the whole session.
		
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I agree with the reasoning re collection, but I don't actually think the trainer uses the collection in this way very much. There are times he has been sent forward straight after being collected and I have thought WOW - he has engaged - used his back and his hind end and consequently the front end lightened and sorted itself out. He really looked totally amazing. I only see her do this a couple of times a session though.

There are very many different ways to solve a problem, and the choice of method very much depends on the rider, the horse and the owner. I appreciate James showing us these videos and asking his trainer these questions as it allows us all to learn, Perhaps things are not done the way we ourselves would do things, but that in itself can allow us to stop and think as to how we would actually solve the problem, or at the very least it allows us to say 'if I had that problem I would not solve it like this but look for something else'. The horse, the owner and the trainer in question here all seem happy  What more can anyone ask for?


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## fabikat (27 August 2013)

Thank you Hollycat for your considered post.

Not sure why there is always so much squabbling on here though.
Each is entitled to their opinion, right or wrong. Can we not leave it at that and let people comment on these threads without prejudice?


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## Allover (27 August 2013)

Auslander said:



			Just because you think its wrong, doesn't mean it is. I just want to know why you are so convinced that you are right, when some very experienced people on here are of the same opinion as me/Dab Dab et al? 

Tell you what. I have a PSG//Inter1 horse who is quite complicated to ride. Perhaps you'd like to put your money where your mouth is, and earn yourself some HHO credibility points by coming over to have a go on him. If you can prove that you can walk the walk, your attempts to talk the talk may meet with a more favourable response. Serious offer...
		
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So it is perfectly acceptable for the "likers" of this training method to tell the "non likers" that they are wrong and to insinuate that they cannot possibly have the experience or knowledge to make any kind of informed decision on how this horse is worked but woe betide any of the "non likers" doing the same. 

If my memory serves me correctly Auslander you have written before that you would not want her riding your horses and that her methods are not what you would necessarily use yourself. You also claim that there are improvements in this horses way of going which I strongly disagree with. The only plus point over the last 16/17 hours of training is that he has learnt to balance himself despite the fact he is continually being asked to go off balance. After listening to her reasoning as to why she "collects" the horse the way she does did make strike a cord with me. I remember Anky VG saying the same thing when asked about her use of Rollkur - you make it as difficult as you can for the horse and then when you "release" them from the restriction of Rollkur they will be much freer in their movement. I personally do not use discomfort or force in any aspect of my horse care and sure as hell would not use it in my riding. I have learnt a better way. 

We should also look at the bio-mechanics of the horse and the detrimental effect this style of riding has on the horse, I am presuming most of us know about the dorsal/ventral chain of muscles and how that is used when the horse is working correctly and more importantly how things go wrong when they are not? Interestingly enough I had a horse diagnosed with KS and the vet (German) told me that there is a far higher incidence of return to work with the SJ horses that with the dressage horses because they work them better through the back. Go figure!

James I would be interested to know whether your vet has watched your horse under saddle as well as in hand/lunging as to me he looks a completely different horse. I do not think he is lame but do think that the riding method employed can make him look like he is.


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## _GG_ (27 August 2013)

Why the descent into such unpleasantness?

Come on people, there is a horse at the heart of this....whatever your personal opinion, if you go about sharing it by squabbling and nit picking at each other, any use or benefit that could come from your experience is being lost. 

It is extremely perfunctory to argue without explanation and I see little useful explanation from the loudest posters on this thread. 

I've been extremely busy lately, but am going to have a quick catch up on the videos later and see what all this crap is about. 


I think some growing up needs to be done and along with it, the realisation that perhaps none of us are right or wrong. In fact, I'd put money on it as regardless of our experience, we are not there, we are not riding this horse and so we DO NOT KNOW everything. 

All we can do is discuss and share opinions. We shouldn't judge each other on them.


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## Armas (27 August 2013)

Hollycatt thank you for your post interesting whilst being diplomatic and informative. 
GG balanced and sensible as ever.
Auslander I am sorry that you are getting this uncalled for stick.
DabDab balanced and interesting
Rhino where have you been hiding ?
Allover being able to articulate ones view with out being rude that was the nub of the issue. As for the vet he is due out at the yard in September and will ask him for his opinion.
Goldmint rude posts get you no where.
Millipops articulate as ever.
Chocolate tea pot ;-)

If I have missed any one else I am sorry.


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## Auslander (27 August 2013)

Allover said:



			If my memory serves me correctly Auslander you have written before that you would not want her riding your horses and that her methods are not what you would necessarily use yourself. You also claim that there are improvements in this horses way of going which I strongly disagree with.
		
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I am getting really fed up with being a target on here. I have not said that I would not want her to ride my horse - I wouldn't have a problem with her riding him, and he'd probably go beautifully for her. I have said that there are things I'd do differently - and I stand by that. I think the horse has improved personally - and I genuinely thing he has, in some areas. You disagree, and thats fine.


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## Armas (27 August 2013)

Wow goldmint I cannot believe you are turning down the opportunity to ride a top quality horse, I would have loved to have had that offer made to me. Auslander any chances of that when I am in the UK ?
Goldmint as you say you have competed to a decent standard I for one would be interested in seeing some of your results.


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## Auslander (27 August 2013)

I'm out. Simply can't be bothered to post any more.


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## Auslander (27 August 2013)

Armas said:



			Wow goldmint I cannot believe you are turning down the opportunity to ride a top quality horse, I would have loved to have had that offer made to me. Auslander any chances of that when I am in the UK ?
.
		
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It might actually be a good thing James - he will give you a good idea of how a horse working correctly should feel. You may need velcro pants on for the first few minutes though!


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## Armas (27 August 2013)

I am confused you say your yard ?? Do you have your own yard ??

Oddly I am confused by your knowledge, I am not sure why some one of your obvious calibre and experience would be posting these kinds of questions http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?410886-Little-schooling-issue


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## Caol Ila (27 August 2013)

LOL.  Armas for the "Law and Order: Horse and Hound Online" win today!


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## PorkChop (27 August 2013)

Armas said:



			I am confused you say your yard ?? Do you have your own yard ??

Oddly I am confused by your knowledge, I am not sure why some one of your obvious calibre and experience would be posting these kinds of questions http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?410886-Little-schooling-issue

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Too funny


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## nikicb (27 August 2013)

Caol Ila said:



			LOL.  Armas for the "Law and Order: Horse and Hound Online" win today!
		
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Actually I thought this thread was reasonably telling as well.....

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?406961-Is-this-very-expensive-and-hello-)


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## Auslander (27 August 2013)

As a general piece of info - as I am sure its not only the one particular poster wondering. As can be read on numerous previous posts - I am honest about my shortcomings (Wobble and Flop!),do not profess to being a competition rider of any note. I can ride and improve a horse that is working at a decent level, but do not compete, have never seriously competed, and unless Alf decides to become 100% sound and I can't resist showing him off - I never will. 
What I do have in my favour is many years of training with some fantastic trainers, years of opportunities to ride amazing horses, a thirst for knowledge and self improvement that has seen me travel the world, working with said amazing horses, and absorbing every little bit of information I could get from trainers, riders and other inspiring horse people. My key skill is the ability to pass on what I've learned from them, and without wishing to sound up myself - I am pretty good as a trainer.  As a rider - I am not as good as I would like to be, and that's why I don't compete, or even ride very seriously nowadays.


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## Goldenstar (27 August 2013)

Armas said:



			I am confused you say your yard ?? Do you have your own yard ??

Oddly I am confused by your knowledge, I am not sure why some one of your obvious calibre and experience would be posting these kinds of questions http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?410886-Little-schooling-issue

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I am sorry but that is just hilarious I know I am being nasty and I try very hard not to be nasty but thats hilarious .


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## Goldenstar (27 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			Indeed that was a very expensive horse! sorry ponio.


No not my yard of course, I don't have a yard. I also don't have horses. 

Im just a weirdo looking for people to offer a ride on their horse so I can meet them ;-) 

Its a shame Auslander now seems to have retracted that offer.
		
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Every one is allowed a mistake now and again , I would not let you with half a km of my horses.


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## Auslander (27 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			Its a shame Auslander now seems to have retracted that offer.
		
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No I haven't. Always happy to let people have a go on him - he's an older horse with a lot to offer less experienced riders who genuinely want to learn how to ride better, and enough buttons installed to be enormous fun for those who know what they are doing.

Although, in hindsight - I don't think you fall into either category, so I don't want you within a mile of him


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## Nightwatcher (27 August 2013)

It is really confusing reading this thread with two 'golden' people posting.


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## Spring Feather (27 August 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			I am sorry but that is just hilarious I know I am being nasty and I try very hard not to be nasty but thats hilarious .
		
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Yes it is nasty and I agree you're not usually.  Goldenmint isn't showing herself/himself in a good light but neither are the rest of you picking on him/her.  Hands. Sit. On. :wink3:


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## Auslander (27 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			Well it was fun while it lasted.

Trolololol

Sorry Auslander but at least you have now told H&H the truth about how experienced at competing you are with you PSG horse.
At least I was only a troll.

I now bow out disgracefully.
		
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Competing isn't the be-all and end-all. Many very fine riders/trainers don't compete. Doesn't mean they aren't any good. Rosettes are earned at home, and collected at competitions


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## nikicb (27 August 2013)

Auslander said:



			No I haven't. Always happy to let people have a go on him - he's an older horse with a lot to offer less experienced riders who genuinely want to learn how to ride better, and enough buttons installed to be enormous fun for those who know what they are doing.

Although, in hindsight - I don't think you fall into either category, so I don't want you within a mile of him
		
Click to expand...

I was actually going to add above that having met Alf he would be quite capable of dealing with any rider that asked him to work in a way he didn't want to - hence I stayed firmly on the ground.


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## Puppy (27 August 2013)

goldenmint said:



			Awww and spring feather has shown herself to be a truely nice person.

But I am a troll don't worry about it.

Its just a shame I used my oldest username.
		
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It's pretty obvious who you are.


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## Nightwatcher (27 August 2013)

Puppy said:



			It's pretty obvious who you are.
		
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Who?


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## MerrySherryRider (27 August 2013)

Woah, don't know about Law and Order, Armas threads are more like The Bermuda Triangle. Annoy him and you disappear from HHO existence. 

 Whats the current head count ?


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## Auslander (27 August 2013)

horserider said:



			Woah, don't know about Law and Order, Armas threads are more like The Bermuda Triangle. Annoy him and you disappear from HHO existence. 

 Whats the current head count ?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe Armas IS the Fat Controller???


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## Goldenstar (27 August 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Yes it is nasty and I agree you're not usually.  Goldenmint isn't showing herself/himself in a good light but neither are the rest of you picking on him/her.  Hands. Sit. On. :wink3:
		
Click to expand...

But just too funny if you dish it out you ought to take it too.


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## Armas (27 August 2013)

Ah well thats two trolls that have bit the dust on this thread Muck_bucket lasted 30seconds Goldenmint since 2010 !


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## MerrySherryRider (27 August 2013)

Auslander said:



			Maybe Armas IS the Fat Controller???
		
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Ah, the plot thickens. Didn't the fat Controller disappear too, to be taken over by the Forum Admin ?

Who's next ? _(slinks away mumbling 'I love the pretty-white-pony-that-is-amazing-and-whose-training-schedule-is-beyond-criticism.)_


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## Armas (27 August 2013)

horserider said:



			Ah, the plot thickens. Didn't the fat Controller disappear too, to be taken over by the Forum Admin ?

Who's next ? _(slinks away mumbling 'I love the pretty-white-pony-that-is-amazing-and-whose-training-schedule-is-beyond-criticism.)_

Click to expand...

Wise words horserider wise words......


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## Allover (27 August 2013)

Auslander said:



			I am getting really fed up with being a target on here. I have not said that I would not want her to ride my horse - I wouldn't have a problem with her riding him, and he'd probably go beautifully for her. I have said that there are things I'd do differently - and I stand by that. I think the horse has improved personally - and I genuinely thing he has, in some areas. You disagree, and thats fine.
		
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I am sorry if it was not you. 

I like to agree to disagree

Purely out of interest if the opportunity arose would you ask her to ride your horse your way or her way? Unless I completely misunderstood she explained that she is actively using the LDR method of riding as a training method. LDR can be seen as a fix for many different evasions and this could well be employed to correct any evasions your horse may have, would you be happy for your horse to be ridden LDR for 20-30mins?

The reason I "targeted" you is that you are the one that asked the questions, no other reason.


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## Auslander (27 August 2013)

Allover said:



			I am sorry if it was not you. 

I like to agree to disagree

Purely out of interest if the opportunity arose would you ask her to ride your horse your way or her way? Unless I completely misunderstood she explained that she is actively using the LDR method of riding as a training method. LDR can be seen as a fix for many different evasions and this could well be employed to correct any evasions your horse may have, would you be happy for your horse to be ridden LDR for 20-30mins?

The reason I "targeted" you is that you are the one that asked the questions, no other reason.
		
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I would let her get on with it, and see what she made of him. His chosen evasion is to stick his nose to his chest and hold himself in the neck, and he lacks lateral flexion. I don't see LDR in the same light as Rollkur, in certain cases, it has value in getting stretch and swing into a horse that is naturally up and tight, so I wouldn't have a problem with anyone trying to achieve it with this particular horse. The chances of him agreeing to work in a deep outline are minimal anyway - he has very firm ideas about what he considers to be the correct way of going! I can get him to do stretchy-down, but it has taken a lot of patience and time to get him to agree to work in that frame - and he immediately reverts to his default position with someone new on board! Cunning old boy!


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## Allover (27 August 2013)

As cunning as his mother who avoided the question as to whether she would allow LDR for 20-30 minutes at a time on her horse


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## Auslander (27 August 2013)

Allover said:



			As cunning as his mother who avoided the question as to whether she would allow LDR for 20-30 minutes at a time on her horse 

Click to expand...

I didn't mean to! I'm just cautious about saying Yes, because everyone has a different perception of what LDR is, and I don't want to get jumped on as a Rollkurist because I don't have an issue with working a horse in what I interpret as LDR, which cud be very different from someone else's interpetation


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## Allover (27 August 2013)

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/behind_the_vertical.php

From the videos posted Armas' work would be described - with the above link for reference - as working between "deep/rollkur" and "rollkur/severe deep" for the majority of the videos posted on these threads. Would you allow that on your horse?


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## Auslander (27 August 2013)

Allover said:



http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/behind_the_vertical.php

From the videos posted Armas' work would be described - with the above link for reference - as working between "deep/rollkur" and "rollkur/severe deep" for the majority of the videos posted on these threads. Would you allow that on your horse?
		
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Nope! Although, I do feel for the rider as its pretty clear to me that it is primarily Armas choosing to put himself there. That aside, I don't agree with how she uses her hands, and James knows that.
This is why I was reluctant to give an answer re LDR, as I use it, but not in an abusive way. Te best way that I can explain what, to me, correct LDR is, is to talk about the angle at the throat. If I were to ride Alf in LDR, his face would look, at first glance, as if he was BTV. However, I would be using the exercise to stretch the trapezius muxcle, and the angle between neck and throat would be exactly the same as if he was in a reasonably advanced outline, with his face on the vertical If you were to take a photo of his head and neck while he was in the LDR position, and and another with him in normal outline - there would be no difference at all in that angle. LDR is all about that throat angle - or it is for me. I really hope this makes sense - because I know exactly what I mean, but I'm not sure I've explained it very well!


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## doriangrey (27 August 2013)

What's to explain   It's Armas - in proportion to his wonderful life (especially mooching with Hersus the Great) - he has to work a little hard.  Boo hoo - I reckon he copes


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## Auslander (27 August 2013)

This picture sums up my interpretation of LDR.







And if you are feeling particularly up for it, this website is worth a read. It's a bit of an eye frazzler, and some of the stuff she says is a bit odd, but if you can get over the visual and mental disturbance, she has some very informative stuff to say about LDR and how it can benefit the horse when done properly

http://www.scandinavian-dressage.com/uk/DRF.html


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## Allover (28 August 2013)

Auslander said:



			Nope! Although, I do feel for the rider as its pretty clear to me that it is primarily Armas choosing to put himself there. That aside, I don't agree with how she uses her hands, and James knows that.
This is why I was reluctant to give an answer re LDR, as I use it, but not in an abusive way. Te best way that I can explain what, to me, correct LDR is, is to talk about the angle at the throat. If I were to ride Alf in LDR, his face would look, at first glance, as if he was BTV. However, I would be using the exercise to stretch the trapezius muxcle, and the angle between neck and throat would be exactly the same as if he was in a reasonably advanced outline, with his face on the vertical If you were to take a photo of his head and neck while he was in the LDR position, and and another with him in normal outline - there would be no difference at all in that angle. LDR is all about that throat angle - or it is for me. I really hope this makes sense - because I know exactly what I mean, but I'm not sure I've explained it very well!
		
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Thank you for the honest answer  What is it you do not like about her hands? I still have to disagree that she is not causing the BTV. From watching the videos I see a rider who is controlling the horse with her hands only. Whilst i will openly admit that some horses will go BTV of their own doing I also know that no horse will keep itself in that position for the length of time that is shown on the vids without the rider asking for it. I can also see from the video that Armas continuously offers a more correct frame and this is ignored/not felt by the rider. She also rolls him under on the long reins so it is not that she can't feel it but is just a way of training for her.


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## Allover (28 August 2013)

Auslander said:



			This picture sums up my interpretation of LDR.







And if you are feeling particularly up for it, this website is worth a read. It's a bit of an eye frazzler, and some of the stuff she says is a bit odd, but if you can get over the visual and mental disturbance, she has some very informative stuff to say about LDR and how it can benefit the horse when done properly

http://www.scandinavian-dressage.com/uk/DRF.html

Click to expand...

I had a read through the website and could find nothing on LDR?

With regards to the picture shown that again is not a bodily position I would want a horse I was riding to be in. If we look only at the head we can see he is BTV but if we move further along the body you can also see that his back is not engaged. In fact there are very few photos on that website where the horses are not BTV. I would presume that she has put the best of her pics on this website so again presume that this is a normal way of working for her horses. A knowledge of bio-mechanics will help you understand why this is detrimental to the horses physical being.

Unfortunately we seem to have come to a point where all the emphasis is on how the horse is going rather that what the rider is doing and when things go belly up it is the horses "fault" regardless of whether the rider is capable of asking correctly for whatever it is they want. Horses can't call us for a chat or send us an email to tell us how to do things correctly all it can do is respond to what we ask of it. They do tell us but we have gotten used to not listening and lets face it it is always handy to have someone else to blame when you mess up, especially when what we are blaming cannot defend themselves! 

James, if you are still reading this thread i would be really grateful if you would do something for me. If memory serves you are a fairly fit kinda guy  so i would like for you to place your hands behind your back with the back of your hand against your buttocks (i love that word) then i would like you to bend your knees slightly. Then take a 15 minute walk, at no point must your legs be fully straightened and your hands may only rub up and down from the buttocks ) ) to the small of the back. It would be really interesting to know how you are feeling after this.


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## Spring Feather (28 August 2013)

Allover said:



			I still have to disagree that she is not causing the BTV. From watching the videos I see a rider who is controlling the horse with her hands only. Whilst i will openly admit that some horses will go BTV of their own doing I also know that no horse will keep itself in that position for the length of time that is shown on the vids without the rider asking for it. I can also see from the video that Armas continuously offers a more correct frame and this is ignored/not felt by the rider. She also rolls him under on the long reins so it is not that she can't feel it but is just a way of training for her.
		
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Thank goodness someone sees exactly what I see.  You've written that word perfect IMO.  I'll be interested to hear your thoughts, Allover, on the very latest Armas video that has been posted today and if your thinking is again the same as mine then your point above is vindicated.


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## DabDab (28 August 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Thank goodness someone sees exactly what I see.  You've written that word perfect IMO.  I'll be interested to hear your thoughts, Allover, on the very latest Armas video that has been posted today and if your thinking is again the same as mine then your point above is vindicated.
		
Click to expand...


At the beginning of today's session she does ride him in a more correct frame, and as a combination she and Armas seem to be able to maintain that nice frame with lovely movement while trotting nice and easily around the arena. But when she asks for more/something different you very quickly get the very high, 'advanced' shaped neck and Armas gets very strong. I genuinely believe that that is partly due to Armas being ridden into that kind of frame, and I also think that it is partly due to the fact that he seems to be sensitive, panicky and naturally eager to please so he tenses up very quickly in response to the rider's aids. But I also believe that at times the rider exasperates the problem. 

I don't think the rider exactly knows how to deal with this, which is why she has chosen to focus on other stuff - primarily the engagement of the back end. But I also think that, ultimately that focus is a false economy, because Armas' conformation will always allow him to tuck his back end right underneath him, while still holding his head very high and being hollow through the back.

I probably should have written this on the new thread but it seemed to fit in with the discussion on this one


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## Spring Feather (28 August 2013)

DabDab said:



			At the beginning of today's session she does ride him in a more correct frame, and as a combination she and Armas seem to be able to maintain that nice frame with lovely movement while trotting nice and easily around the arena. But when she asks for more/something different you very quickly get the very high, 'advanced' shaped neck and Armas gets very strong. I genuinely believe that that is partly due to Armas being ridden into that kind of frame, and I also think that it is partly due to the fact that he seems to be sensitive, panicky and naturally eager to please so he tenses up very quickly in response to the rider's aids. But I also believe that at times the rider exasperates the problem. 

I don't think the rider exactly knows how to deal with this, which is why she has chosen to focus on other stuff - primarily the engagement of the back end. But I also think that, ultimately that focus is a false economy, because Armas' conformation will always allow him to tuck his back end right underneath him, while still holding his head very high and being hollow through the back.

I probably should have written this on the new thread but it seemed to fit in with the discussion on this one 

Click to expand...

Exactly what I saw too.  Thank you for replying.  The ride started off really nicely (there was my glimmer!!!) and I was so hopeful for the rest of the ride to finally get it together as it looked so promising!  If you look again though, at the beginning she was giving Armas length of rein and he worked very nicely with it.  It was a fair way in that she then took back her usual stance of riding and it all went pear shaped again (for me anyway).  He started doing what he usually does, and she kept doing her snatching cr4p again just as he was trying to move nicely into the contact again.  I felt today's ride, the rider looked very unbalanced and quite out of sorts compared to how she has ridden previously - maybe not so determined as she usually is.  I find her hands naturally harsh and unforgiving and at the beginning of todays video I saw her being far more gentle and responsive, shame it didn't last because she was getting the best ever from Armas! I wonder if the rider is becoming fed up now?  Having said all that, I did again see a bit of a glimmer towards the end of todays video so maybe, just maybe they might be getting somewhere.


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## Goldenstar (28 August 2013)

I feel and I don't like to criticise this rider who is so open as to leave herself open to the process we playing at here but I feel her fault may be she is greedy in that she keeps going when backing off and saying that was interesting Armas would you like to think about that a while might help this hot busy person to find more equilibrium .
This horse does not cope well with being pushed into an error it rattles him and then its back to managing evasions not training
With some horses you have to push the point with others backing away can pay more dividends in the end .
Just my musing not meanlt in any unpleasant way.


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## Allover (28 August 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Thank goodness someone sees exactly what I see.  You've written that word perfect IMO.  I'll be interested to hear your thoughts, Allover, on the very latest Armas video that has been posted today and if your thinking is again the same as mine then your point above is vindicated.
		
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Thanks 

Again I thought there was little improvement from the rider. At the start of the video her elbows are as good as locked and she is way behind the horses movement therefor off balance. When he raises his frame her balance shifts back even more so she grabs at the front end to get him where she is more comfortable. I am not so sure that she is confident in allowing any freedom in the trot and I am not sure why. When she pushes Armas on in the trot she drops him on the forehand and unbalances him so yes he is going round with lots of speed but none of the energy is being harnessed into a productive working frame, he is just trotting quickly and off balance. I did also think today that Armas looks like he learning to throw his front leg forward from the elbow rather than use his shoulder (quite understandably as at one point there was no daylight in the neck/head angle due to him being so compressed in his frame)This is the result of the training he is receiving. At 8.40 she is completely braced against his movement, it is like the dressage equivalent of the classic defensive hunting seat with the leg shoved forward with the body braced against the hand. He offers so often - and is ignored - in this video to raise up and lengthen his frame that it starts getting me down if I watch it for too long. I think the rider finds the canter more comfortable, unfortunately this means that she pushes him about a bit more and annoys Armas (the eternally giving horse!). The majority of the bunny hopping/spooking etc could be avoided if she was a slightly more sympathetic rider. I still do not "get" the throwing and snatching back of the reins that she does though I am sure someone will tell me that she is releasing and taking back the contact.

Hope this makes sense, I has been a long day!!


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## Allover (28 August 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			I feel and I don't like to criticise this rider who is so open as to leave herself open to the process we playing at here but I feel her fault may be she is greedy in that she keeps going when backing off and saying that was interesting Armas would you like to think about that a while might help this hot busy person to find more equilibrium .
This horse does not cope well with being pushed into an error it rattles him and then its back to managing evasions not training
With some horses you have to push the point with others backing away can pay more dividends in the end .
Just my musing not meanlt in any unpleasant way.
		
Click to expand...

She could always ask James to stop posting? 

As for the rest I agree 100%, she has no tact in her riding of Armas.


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## ester (28 August 2013)

Allover said:



			I had a read through the website and could find nothing on LDR?

With regards to the picture shown that again is not a bodily position I would want a horse I was riding to be in. If we look only at the head we can see he is BTV but if we move further along the body you can also see that his back is not engaged. In fact there are very few photos on that website where the horses are not BTV. I would presume that she has put the best of her pics on this website so again presume that this is a normal way of working for her horses. A knowledge of bio-mechanics will help you understand why this is detrimental to the horses physical being.

Unfortunately we seem to have come to a point where all the emphasis is on how the horse is going rather that what the rider is doing and when things go belly up it is the horses "fault" regardless of whether the rider is capable of asking correctly for whatever it is they want. Horses can't call us for a chat or send us an email to tell us how to do things correctly all it can do is respond to what we ask of it. They do tell us but we have gotten used to not listening and lets face it it is always handy to have someone else to blame when you mess up, especially when what we are blaming cannot defend themselves! 

James, if you are still reading this thread i would be really grateful if you would do something for me. If memory serves you are a fairly fit kinda guy  so i would like for you to place your hands behind your back with the back of your hand against your buttocks (i love that word) then i would like you to bend your knees slightly. Then take a 15 minute walk, at no point must your legs be fully straightened and your hands may only rub up and down from the buttocks ) ) to the small of the back. It would be really interesting to know how you are feeling after this.
		
Click to expand...

Most of the page is about LDR... so much so that it is entitled low deep and round on my google tab! and most of the photos included are of other dressage riders as far as I can tell???


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## Allover (28 August 2013)

ester said:



			Most of the page is about LDR... so much so that it is entitled low deep and round on my google tab! and most of the photos included are of other dressage riders as far as I can tell???
		
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I saw loads of pictures but most of the writing was in Danish (I think). I found a small bit in English talking about the riders hands but that's it. Am I being really stupid? Help me!!!!!! 

Edited to say that I did use the button to convert to English language but then I could only find past hoses and horses to be sold?!


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## ester (28 August 2013)

I used google translate on this page (no need to click anywhere else). 

http://www.scandinavian-dressage.com/uk/DRF.html

try again


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## Allover (28 August 2013)

ester said:



			I used google translate on this page (no need to click anywhere else). 

http://www.scandinavian-dressage.com/uk/DRF.html

try again 

Click to expand...

Thank you, I have never used a website translation page before 

I got to the bit where she put up some examples of a good dressage frame and decided enough was enough. Ultimately I will never agree with this Ethos of training. It completely ignores the needs of the horse and I have explained why in previous posts.

At least we have Charlotte Dujardin. Is she an advocate of Rollkur because her tests keep getting better?


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## DabDab (28 August 2013)

DabDab said:



			At the beginning of today's session she does ride him in a more correct frame, and as a combination she and Armas seem to be able to maintain that nice frame with lovely movement while trotting nice and easily around the arena. But when she asks for more/something different you very quickly get the very high, 'advanced' shaped neck and Armas gets very strong. I genuinely believe that that is partly due to Armas being ridden into that kind of frame in the past, and I also think that it is partly due to the fact that he seems to be sensitive, panicky and naturally eager to please so he tenses up very quickly in response to the rider's aids. But I also believe that at times the rider exasperates the problem. 

I don't think the rider exactly knows how to deal with this, which is why she has chosen to focus on other stuff - primarily the engagement of the back end. But I also think that, ultimately that focus is a false economy, because Armas' conformation will always allow him to tuck his back end right underneath him, while still holding his head very high and being hollow through the back.

I probably should have written this on the new thread but it seemed to fit in with the discussion on this one 

Click to expand...

Typo correction in red - sorry I should have read through before


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## Auslander (28 August 2013)

Allover said:



			I had a read through the website and could find nothing on LDR?

With regards to the picture shown that again is not a bodily position I would want a horse I was riding to be in. If we look only at the head we can see he is BTV but if we move further along the body you can also see that his back is not engaged. In fact there are very few photos on that website where the horses are not BTV. I would presume that she has put the best of her pics on this website so again presume that this is a normal way of working for her horses. A knowledge of bio-mechanics will help you understand why this is detrimental to the horses physical being.
		
Click to expand...

It all about LDR! Thanks for your response -  all points noted, and considered! I find that warming up in this position, just asking or them to be forward, soft and light, does result in a horse who is nice and soft and stretchy. I'm no biomechanics expert admittedly,but I know that I feel good after I've stretched the back of my neck and shoulders - and this is what I try to achieve from whichever horse I'm riding,  before asking for collection and engagement.


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## Auslander (29 August 2013)

Another good explanation of how correctly used LDR can benefit here - from the master himself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbk7HWtQWbM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3rJras7vQQ


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## *Maddy&Occhi* (29 August 2013)

Out of interest, how many sessions a week do you have with this trainer? He looked tense and uncomfortable today, maybe he's being pushed too hard too soon? After all, slow and steady wins the race.


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## Fellewell (29 August 2013)

I found this picture of A French girl on an Iberian horse and she's being annoyed by the English.
Do you suppose she and the saintly Virginie are somehow related?


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## Allover (29 August 2013)

Auslander said:



			Another good explanation of how correctly used LDR can benefit here - from the master himself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbk7HWtQWbM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3rJras7vQQ

Click to expand...

Where there is overbending there is tension. 

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/work_stretch.php. This page is interesting. For me this is the correct way to stretch a horse before and after collected work. It makes an incredible difference to the movement of the horse and is really good for relaxation and has huge benefits for sharp horses. Because we tend to "hang on" to a horse that is forward going and can be guilty of not riding forward enough we educate the horse to be reliant on us to find his balance for him. This method of low work allows the horse to find his own balance and this builds confidence - its a win win situation  It is also excellent in helping the rider find an "independent" seat and develop good hands. 



I liked his comment about the SJers.


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