# Can you turn a hot horse into a calm one?



## Ambers Echo (3 January 2020)

When I first got Amber 3 years ago I was very keen on improving her rideability.

I wasn't a good enough rider to just mange her power and enthusiasm - I had to try and make her easier to ride.

Mark Rashid talks about control of speed, direction and destination in all gaits over all terrain without evasions. Buck Brannaman talks of control of all 4 feet in all directions in all situations. A horse who can go from chilling calmly to a flat out gallop and back to chilling calmly again. Horses who can go from gallop down through all gaits to a smooth halt with barely any rein and no arguments. I believe good riders control hot horses using huge amounts of sensitivity, timing, balance, clarity , feel, skill and courage that I just don’t have. So instead of becoming a hugely skilled rider, I wanted Amber to become very easy to ride instead!

But in 3 years of working towards that with quite a lot of schooling, quite a few clinics and lessons she is no easier than she used to be. There are days when she is dead easy and we can move down through the gaits with no problem. The good days are much better than they used to be. But the difficult days are the same as they always have been: these are the days when she just sticks 2 hooves up at my plans and prats about and is basically an opinionated ginger madam. And I am nowhere near having control over all that in company. She wants to be in front and she definitely wants to stay with the others. I make her go behind in hacks but it's a battle and she never really relaxes unless she is marching along at the head of the pack. Plus when I did a XC clinic on a course she knew she HATED the stop-starting. She wanted to run and jump them all without stopping and was getting very het up about waiting after each fence in a very un - 'control of all 4 feet in all situations' - way!

So I guess my question is am I wasting my time trying to change how she is? Or am I just not doing it right - not spending long enough on it, not being consistent enough in expecting her to listen to me all the time, not putting the degree of commitment into achieving this as it takes.


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## milliepops (3 January 2020)

Based on the horses I've ridden and trained I don't think you can change their essential nature, not easily anyway. (and I'm not sure I would want to, really?)
I think if they are the type that is always on the go, they will always tend to be on the go.
You can definitely train them so you have more influence on HOW they use that energy but I don't think you can turn a buzzy horse into a switched off one. I know as a rider I personally feel more in control and more relaxed about their hotness when I know that the horse has enough of an education to let me override its desire to dash off.  Until you get that bit sorted it can feel a bit uncomfortable I think 

I have 2 that I would describe as hot at the moment, they are hot in really different ways though. When Kira gets ridiculous she pings up and down on the spot and concertinas up in a way that you can't get her to unwind.  When Darcy gets too hot he runs off. I am much more Ok about Kira's hotness but that's because I've put 5 years into her training so am getting better at managing her emotions, and also I know her inside out so it doesn't bother me too much, but Darcy still has a long way to go before I feel happy about him getting fired up. I think he will be one that I can channel his inner zoomies into something more productive and just make him work harder but at the moment it's a bit unmanageable!

I think control and direction of hotness into constructive work is different to changing the horse's natural outlook, basically.  though for a competent rider it has a similar effect in terms of rideability.


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## ihatework (3 January 2020)

milliepops said:



			I think control and direction of hotness into constructive work is different to changing the horse's natural outlook, basically.  though for a competent rider it has a similar effect in terms of rideability.
		
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This


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## Ambers Echo (3 January 2020)

Thanks that is interesting. So are  you saying in the end it comes down to the rider? As in  good rider channels a hot horse effectively. If so, where does training come in? Would those horses who stop smoothly from a gallop on the buckle when Rashid rides them, quickly stop doing that for an inexperienced rider? 

When Deedee first started bucking my RI said she had been produced by a very good rider who may have set her up to be submissive and obedient. And that this would have carried on for a short while with a new rider but would not last indefinitely with a weaker rider so she may turn out to be a little less 'easy' than she seemed to be at first. Which also implies that in the end good riders maker horses look easy but that is not the same as that horse actually becoming easy long term for anyone.


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## ihatework (3 January 2020)

A good rider is continually training a horse in every interaction they have. Sometimes it’s subtle and often they don’t even consciously realise they are doing it.
Put a less good rider on and it’s very common place that things unravel. How quickly that happens depends on how solid the horses foundations are, how generous the horse is and how good/bad the new rider is!


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## EllenJay (3 January 2020)

Interesting question.  I think that there is a difference between a "fast" horse and a stressed horse, and they are both called hot horses.  Horses, like children, need to know their place in the world. Generally a stressed horse want to take control as they have no confidence  in what they are being asked, so feel that they need to take control.  A fast horse, will go flat out when asked, but comes back when asked.

This sounds like I am slanting your riding, but I am not.  You have changed a mare who wants to take control 100% of the time to 50% of the time.  She is trusting your judgement more, but not yet completely.  You will get there.  From previous posts, I understand that under some circumstances you get nervous (hacking) which means that as she is sensitive she picks upon this, so consequently her trust is a little lost, other circumstances you are confident, so therefore she is, and trust is regained.  The more you trust her, the more she will trust you, and the calmer she will get.


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## scats (3 January 2020)

I’d agree with everything MP has said.  My experience has been that hot horses tend to stay hot, but that as they further their education, that energy can be more easily channeled to stop them boiling over.  I also think that certain horses and riders just click.  I had a very hot JA pony, who I got when she was in her late teens.  She had terrified the life out of a lot of people over the years before I had her and got herself quite a reputation.  I just thought she was hilarious and when I rode her, I was just able to work with that energy without getting into a battle.  She never scared me, even when she cantering sideways down bridlepaths with her tongue waving out of her mouth.  Despite everything, I always knew I had complete control.  I put a very competent friend on her once, the pony went off like the clappers around a course of jumps pretty much of her own accord and my friend jumped off, white as a sheet and said never again.  
Then again, a few years ago I rode a friends horse and I just didn’t click with him at all.  He was bouncing about all over the show and I struggled to get anything out of him.  I just felt like all the buttons where in the wrong places.   Friend was highly amused!


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## splashgirl45 (3 January 2020)

the only thing i would do with a naturally hot horse would be to turn out overnight all year round,  that can sometimes take the edge off so they are more willing to listen to the rider. however i have seen horses that are hot with their owner but when a professional gets on within a short time the horse is behaving differently, that may be because the pro is more relaxed and confident, and also reads the horse more quickly and can stop the bad behaviour before it starts....this comes  with many years of experience and those of us who have only one horse will rarely reach that stage, but we can try.....


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## milliepops (3 January 2020)

Ample Prosecco said:



			Thanks that is interesting. So are  you saying in the end it comes down to the rider? As in  good rider channels a hot horse effectively. If so, where does training come in? Would those horses who stop smoothly from a gallop on the buckle when Rashid rides them, quickly stop doing that for an inexperienced rider?
		
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Agree with IHW 
I think a good rider manages a more naturally challenging horse almost instinctively which stops hotness from escalating and enables the horse to remain responsive to the cues it has learned through training.

Put a less usefully instinctive rider on and tiny things will start to slip and then the horse becomes able to start making it's own choices again which may not be the same as the riders choices.


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## milliepops (3 January 2020)

I do also think that some people have an electric bum 
The best hunting I ever had was on a whips horse when its normal rider got injured and I was allowed to ride it in the field.
It had been hot and silly with her but was a perfectly mannered ride for me, I loved every minute.


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## scats (3 January 2020)

Just to add, once I realised how crucial your core is when riding hot horses, it made a huge difference to how I rode them.  It suddenly became apparent to me that you can ‘hold’ a hot horse with your core muscles, without having to take any more hold than your normal contact.  Millie has a very hot canter and I sometimes have to really engage my abdominal muscles to avoid having to take pull when she starts getting opinionated.  I can bring her back to trot this way too.


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## Ambers Echo (3 January 2020)

Thanks everyone. I think I have misunderstood Rashid et al all these years! When they say gain control they mean a rider gains complete control of that horse through skill, training, persistence.  But not that the horse is then easy to control for everyone. I guess its the same for manners. My horses are well mannered on the ground because I like them that way and put effort into it but it does not take long for their manners to slip if handled by people who dont reinforce them.


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## milliepops (3 January 2020)

I dont know if that what they mean but that's certainly been my experience.  E.g. Manners is something that I'm constantly reinforcing but without having to think about it, it's just habit. Not a conscious effort. But I notice that some other people aren't the same and so their horses push boundaries constantly and become rude or awkward because of the lack of consistency.


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## HufflyPuffly (3 January 2020)

Ample Prosecco said:



			Thanks everyone. I think I have misunderstood Rashid et al all these years! When they say gain control they mean a rider gains complete control of that horse through skill, training, persistence.  But not that the horse is then easy to control for everyone. I guess its the same for manners. My horses are well mannered on the ground because I like them that way and put effort into it but it does not take long for their manners to slip if handled by people who dont reinforce them.
		
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I think this is exactly right!

Topaz and Skylla are very hot horses. Topaz these days prople ask to ride, she looks well behaved and a lovely ride, which she is but only if she’s ridden/ managed well.

Skylla makes people nervous, she’s actually far better behaved or more sensible at least, but being hot plus more unbalanced and younger gives her that more unpredictable feel. 

Both will be knobs if not kept on top of! Having had Topaz 10+ years now we know that we cannot change her temperament but can ‘manage’ her.


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## daffy44 (3 January 2020)

I agree with MP, I really dont think you can change the horses essential nature, its how you manage it that matters.

Certainly when you buy a new horse you have the previous riders effect for a short space of time, but unless the new rider does things in the same way this effect will soon unravel.

Groundwork and ridden work are the same in this respect, if you automatically stay in control then you dont realise there is an issue, because you manage it without thinking about it, but when a person with less skills handles the same horse the issue can become apparent very quickly.


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## be positive (3 January 2020)

milliepops said:



			I dont know if that what they mean but that's certainly been my experience.  E.g. Manners is something that I'm constantly reinforcing but without having to think about it, it's just habit. Not a conscious effort. But I notice that some other people aren't the same and so their horses push boundaries constantly and become rude or awkward because of the lack of consistency.
		
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I agree, many owners really do not instill the manners and keep reinforcing them, they wait until the horse has overstepped the mark then react rather than just keep quietly stopping them in the first place, I have a pony here that is so well mannered when I deal with him on the ground and if I ride him yet his owner, who is not soft, lets him step outside of the boundaries then tells him off, a few days with her handling him and his manners are on the way out, nearly two weeks and I want him back under my full time care!  

Another client has a group of horses that are not bad in any way but take the p constantly, 2 have been here for schooling, clipping and lessons and behave normally yet at their own yard they are unruly, undisciplined and are a bit lost in a way, they like clear boundaries and the hotter they are the clearer and more consistent the rider/  handler needs to be, the slower thinkers do not act so quickly so you can get away with being less focused dealing with them.


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## Upthecreek (3 January 2020)

I don’t think you can change a horse’s personality or temperament; it’s about working with what you have to get the best out of them. A truly hot horse will never transform into being calm and laid back. A professional rider may be able to contain and channel the hotness better than someone less experienced, but in essence you still have a hot horse. Equally a calm laid back horse may step up a gear when ridden by a pro, but it doesn’t change what he is. I think we can all look at how we manage and ride our horses to get the very best out of them, but we can’t change the fundamentals of what they are.


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## DabDab (3 January 2020)

I like hot horses because I like that feeling of having plenty to work with, and I think you always get that with a hot horse, no matter how well trained they are. And certainly if you don't keep the structure in place even the well trained ones with tend to slip back into silly hot.

I think sometimes you have to mix up your training too when you're teaching a run off hot type, because their answer to not quite getting the concept of something will generally be to go faster and hope for the best. And maybe that's what the llikes Rashid are hinting at. For example, I had to install a neck strap whoa command with Arts when first establishing left canter because she needed the clarity of a different aid for a while as I needed all my body and rein aids to help develop her balance and bend in the canter, so then using the same aids to ask for trot she found confusing and would fall into trot before dashing off like roadrunner.  She's naturally a very busy horse with a very busy brain and needs me to keep all the noodles of thought straightish for her. After a couple of weeks she'd grasped what I was getting at with my normal aids and didn't need the neck strap aid anymore.


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## DabDab (3 January 2020)

Also, I think the temptation is to think that it's the body that's hot rather than the brain. Fast work to try to tire them out often tends to work the other way. A bit like border collies that get more hyperactive despite increased exercise if that exercise is unstructured.

Good pros may have different styles and techniques but they are all experts and working brain exercise into a situation


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## Cortez (3 January 2020)

A horse cannot be better than it's rider - all training wears off if not constantly reinforced. Hot horses need riders who appreciate them and can channel the energy. I love hot horses, but they don't appear hot when I ride them, which surprises people when they get on board


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## rara007 (3 January 2020)

I guess it comes down to terminology. To me, ‘hot’ has an undertone of tension. You can certainly get some horses that are stressed and tense (and therefore spooky and over/under reactive) in their work to relax and enjoy it.


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## HufflyPuffly (3 January 2020)

Not sure about terminology, both of mine can be very tense or very relaxed they are still ‘hot’, forward, sharp, etc, no matter which.

I also don’t agree they are only for professionals, I am VERY amateur, wobbly core to boot, but eventually I have managed to get a tune out of Topaz, though yes a better rider would have done it quicker! Interestingly I’ve had pro riders ride her that have done a terrible job too.


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## maya2008 (3 January 2020)

In my experience it depends on management and exercise levels.

 Living out, with plenty of canter work out hacking and some challenging (for her) schooling, my TB was a dream - reliable and safe. In, or with insufficient canter work, there were times she verged on dangerous. 

Arab Cross much the same, was decidedly interesting to bring back into work even living out, whereas in full work she is calm and sweet.

The Shetland requires two riders a day (with at least one set of fast work/jumping) to keep it sane...

Other horses have needed less.


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## nikkimariet (4 January 2020)

You can refine the over reaction into something manageable. But I don’t think a hot horse will ever be turned into a plod. 

Take Fig for example - he’s akways been a live wire. That’s just him. Under me he’s sharp and responsive but managed well and successfully. I’ve had others on him who are good riders but he’s boiled 150% over the edge and just run off with them in a foaming mess with his veins up. In the wrong hands that could end very badly. 

Likewise, Nova was a lazy sausage and I got him to the point of being nicely reactive but his intuitive nature was to sit behind you and I (nor anyone else I ever had on him) would have ever been able to change that completely.


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## Skib (7 January 2020)

A bit late, but didnt have computer yesterday.
I have not learned how to hold back a mare cantering in company. I can ride a gelding second but any advice on riding second would be very welcome.

However, Amber I am posting today because  related to what Tik Maynard taught about relaxing and slowing a horse before jumping - I think the same can be applied hacking or out in the open.
I was riding first (because I havent mastered  riding behind!) on a mare I still dont know well and  my escort told me I didnt have to canter. That relaxed me of course. Then she said that of the mare felt quiet in trot and it seemed safe to canter her, I should.
The mare felt calm so I asked her for canter.
She didnt canter  she seemed puzzled by the request - may be trotting too gently? But I asked her again and told her that if one could canter from  halt or walk, it shouldnt be impossible for her to canter. In terms of horsemanship I can see this was incorrect as her hind legs  may not have been sufficiently under her.
Anyway I said the word canter and put my leg on and she cantered at once - but such a lovely rhythmic canter  like one has in the school. We cantered a long comfortable way like that - my escort remarked on how nice it was.
Thinking about it later, it struck me that when one learns to ride one always gees up the horse a bit  as one approaches the corner to canter. Then one releases the enegy and congratulates oneself that horses always canter so easilly for one. And out hacking because the canter is so big, one almost immediately goes into forward seat and that frees the horse further.
Many of the things we do prior to canter and while cantering give the horse the idea that we want fast forward. But if we alter the context and preparation may be that is the answer to slow? And that does seem similar to Tik Maynard quietening and slowing the horses before he actually allowed them to jump the jump.

Of course if anyone can teach me how to ride a mare second - I should like that. She is lke an arrow from a bow when following.


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## Flamenco (7 January 2020)

As others have said it depends what you mean by hot. I had an NH trainer out who says that every horse should be calm and relaxed regardless of their breed. My PRE was very sharp and spooky, until I sorted out his diet. If she hadn't said this I would have continued thinking this is normal for a hotblooded horse and wouldn't have considered his diet might be causing it.

He's still forward going, responsive and desperate to please, but now he's does everything calmly without the explosive edge. I would have described him as hot, but not any more. 

He's definitely not a novice ride, you close your leg rather than squeeze, and he goes off your weight aids more than your legs and hands but for a sensitive rider whose willing to adapt to him he's amazing. 

I guess it depends whether theres an underlying issue for the hotness. Someone used to a kick along type may still think he's very hot though!


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## Ambers Echo (7 January 2020)

The question of what I mean by 'hot' is interesting.  My RI describes her as a 'high revver". She maintains her fitness without work, she's very busy. Alert, switched on, powerful, energetic. I can tell when she is stressed/spooky but she's not usually reactive in that way. It is more enthusiasm and uncontained energy. Especially jumping. She sees a fence from 20 strides out, locks onto it and launches herself at it. She sometimes locks onto the wrong fence - just any random fence passing her eyeline. I've improved that but not fundamentally changed it. I think her refusal to be left behind may be stress related or just learned behaviour as before I had her all she ever did was hunt. So, to her, running, jumping and keeping up with the herd is what she knows. 
I've always wanted her to combine excitement with calmness and willingness to listen but that is very much a work in progress!


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## oldie48 (7 January 2020)

I've been thinking about this question since it was posted. I usually categorise my horses as either forward thinking or backward thinking rather than hot or calm. Mr B was forward thinking, generally calm but could be quite reactive in certain situations. Rose on the other hand is backwards thinking in comparison but not actually lazy as such. She is also generally calm but can also be reactive in certain situations. However, where they are different is the way they react, Mr B would spook, spin or run off, Rose is more likely to slam on the brakes and go up or hump. Both of them had/have the potential to get het up and throw their toys out of the pram but actually Mr B was easier to deal with as his natural desire was to go forward. I know I keep beating the drum about this but the best way I've found of dealing with any unwanted behaviour is to have control (which is a work in progress!), to be able to put the horse's head/neck where I want it, to be able to control the pace within the pace etc. I am still on a steep learning curve with Rose as she doesn't always listen to my leg so I don't necessarily have control of her body or sometimes forward motion but I learned with Mr B and Rose that although they are so different, the answer is pretty much the same. I must be able to put my leg on and get the right response and they must listen to me rather than do their own thing. Sorry that this is so waffly


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## The Fuzzy Furry (7 January 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			The question of what I mean by 'hot' is interesting.  My RI describes her as a 'high revver". *She maintains her fitness without work, she's very busy. Alert, switched on, powerful, energetic. I can tell when she is stressed/spooky but she's not usually reactive in that way. It is more enthusiasm and uncontained energy. Especially jumping. She sees a fence from 20 strides out, locks onto it and launches herself at it. She sometimes locks onto the wrong fence - just any random fence passing her eyeline*. I've improved that but not fundamentally changed it. I think her refusal to be left behind may be stress related or just learned behaviour as before I had her all she ever did was hunt. So, to her, running, jumping and keeping up with the herd is what she knows.
I've always wanted her to combine excitement with calmness and willingness to listen but that is very much a work in progress!
		
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AE, this is B Fuzzy down to a tee! 
I'm struggling with the jumping due to this, as my v experienced coach friend says, B looks like a young teenagers pony in a jump off (point, go, steer, and that's it) that's from start to finish in a lesson, once I thought we'd jump out of the arena solid wall!

Its taken me a good while but she's now a fabulous hack, as in v forwards going but sensible,  sharp as a tin tack but absolutely no malice.  Bit of a twerp in company if behind as in but evasion or leaning as wanting to be in front,  but riding v narrow tracks behind friends has helped a bit. 
She is so forwards thinking,  I only have  to think trot or canter and shes doing it, I have to be on the ball the whole time. I'm v happy to hack alone as she's best then.
I certainly couldn't produce a decent stressage test on her, think I need a couple more years yet.


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## milliepops (7 January 2020)

oldie48 said:



			the best way I've found of dealing with any unwanted behaviour is to have control (which is a work in progress!), to be able to put the horse's head/neck where I want it, to be able to control the pace within the pace etc. I am still on a steep learning curve with Rose as she doesn't always listen to my leg so I don't necessarily have control of her body or sometimes forward motion but I learned with Mr B and Rose that although they are so different, the answer is pretty much the same.
		
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I think this is a huge piece of the puzzle and is certainly what I've been working on with current project. If I can keep his whole neck down then I'm mostly in control of the speed, now he's learned that my leg can mean something other than "go faster" then I can stay more in control of direction too  And being able to influence those 2 things means I am starting to be able to channel his energy and zoominess into useful work rather than just getting carted every 2 minutes. 

it was interesting to me that at my first ROR clinic i went to, the instructor asked everyone else what they thought about first and foremost when they got on their horses, and the other people answered things like "suppleness" "contact" "bending"
and I said SAFETY and CONTROL, hehehe


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## Ambers Echo (7 January 2020)

oldie48 said:



			the best way I've found of dealing with any unwanted behaviour is to have control (which is a work in progress!), to be able to put the horse's head/neck where I want it, to be able to control the pace within the pace etc. I am still on a steep learning curve with Rose as she doesn't always listen to my leg so I don't necessarily have control of her body or sometimes forward motion but I learned with Mr B and Rose that although they are so different, the answer is pretty much the same. I must be able to put my leg on and get the right response and they must listen to me rather than do their own thing. Sorry that this is so waffly
		
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Not waffly at all! I agree - my RI keeps saying that being on the aids  does not mean moving off your leg but means responding to whatever you are asking for with your legs, seat, body and hands. I just don't know how to get there.


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## HazuraJane (7 January 2020)

EllenJay said:



			Interesting question.  I think that there is a difference between a "fast" horse and a stressed horse, and they are both called hot horses.  Horses, like children, need to know their place in the world. Generally a stressed horse want to take control as they have no confidence  in what they are being asked, so feel that they need to take control.  A fast horse, will go flat out when asked, but comes back when asked.

This sounds like I am slanting your riding, but I am not.  You have changed a mare who wants to take control 100% of the time to 50% of the time.  She is trusting your judgement more, but not yet completely.  You will get there.  From previous posts, I understand that under some circumstances you get nervous (hacking) which means that as she is sensitive she picks upon this, so consequently her trust is a little lost, other circumstances you are confident, so therefore she is, and trust is regained.  The more you trust her, the more she will trust you, and the calmer she will get.
		
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EllenJay, this is a very insightful reply. You've made many good points. Hopefully, this will put perspective in place for OP - it certainly did for me. Thank you.


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## oldie48 (7 January 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Not waffly at all! I agree - my RI keeps saying that being on the aids  does not mean moving off your leg but means responding to whatever you are asking for with your legs, seat, body and hands. I just don't know how to get there.
		
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TBH I spent years having lessons with knowledgeable trainers but not once was the issue of control ever mentioned until I was having a lesson with MP's trainer who told me very bluntly that I should stop trying to control everything around me and concentrate on controlling my horse. Up to that time, I thought I was! At least your trainer has identified this although I think you are a long way ahead of where I was at the time. My current trainer (at the same place) focuses on control in every lesson I have with her, all the time I have to keep Rose round enough, soft enough and on my aids, if we do lateral work, I have to try to keep that going whilst I keep the rhythm and pace the same with correct bend, crossing of legs etc. It's very disciplined and I often struggle but it has changed the way I ride for the better and has done a lot for my confidence. No-one has ever really trained me like this before.


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## JFTDWS (7 January 2020)

It's an interesting question, because I'm on the other end of the scale - none of my lot are "hot" by most definitions, and are all pretty chilled out generally.  However, Fergus can be hot - by some definitions - to hack alone, although I would generally call it sharp rather than hot, and I can make Skye (who is almost pathologically zen) hot to hack or stick and ball, in the sense of entirely active, switched on, bouncing sideways in complete veins-out silliness.  And it sort of makes sense that if you can take a naturally zen horse and make it hot, you should be able to make a hot horse zen.  

Personally I suspect it's more a question of degrees - I can make Skye hot(ter) in circumstances where she is confident and keen, but I couldn't have repeated it on a pitch, or at polocrosse training because she was too stressed by the other horses in those circumstances.  Likewise, it's probably possible to make Amber calm and chilled, but once the environment changes, she'll probably revert to hot, unless you can ride her more intuitively to keep a lid on it.  I also agree with the comments above about controlling the neck being key to that - if the neck is down, the horse is calm (outwardly at least), and if you can teach the horse to lower its neck, you're closer to calm than if you can't.


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## milliepops (7 January 2020)

"whole neck down" is something I say to myself quite a lot!
It's easy to get nose in, but to get the neck to drop from the base all the way to the poll is a bit harder and (for me) requires the horse to understand the contact in a more nuanced way. I have 2 that go above the bit naturally, one in a peacocky way and one just giraffes, so it's slightly different on each, but just putting the nose in means they can still push the underneck out and gain control.

When you can really push them to telescope the neck down & into the hand, THAT is when i know I am retaining my influence even when they would rather hollow and run off 

eta of course there are other ways to teach the neck down thing, I know someone who does it as a kind of NH thing and another person that clicker trains it, but I need it as a ridden dressagey cue so that's how I have trained it.


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## JFTDWS (7 January 2020)

I encourage all of mine to work out and down / forward in the neck, on a loose rein (but still active, forward and not on the forehand - and yes, that's a skill all of its own), but they also have to learn to accept contact and take it forward to lengthen the neck in a more dressagey aesthetic, because sometimes even zen horses need to be re-focused more actively!


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## J&S (8 January 2020)

Do you  not think that head and neck down in ridden work corrallates (sp?) to head and neck down in hand or loose which will lower the heart rate.  Lowering the heart rate will decrease stress and allow the horse to take the rider's requests on board.


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## milliepops (8 January 2020)

J&S said:



			Do you  not think that head and neck down in ridden work corrallates (sp?) to head and neck down in hand or loose which will lower the heart rate.  Lowering the heart rate will decrease stress and allow the horse to take the rider's requests on board.
		
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I think that's definitely part of it, but it's also about yielding to the rider/handler in the first instance, before that de-stressing can happen,  IMO


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## JFTDWS (8 January 2020)

milliepops said:



			I think that's definitely part of it, but it's also about yielding to the rider/handler in the first instance, before that de-stressing can happen,  IMO 

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Ah see I think lowering the neck will make yielding to the handler easier and more likely.  This is like the chicken and the egg, except harder to actually answer


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## milliepops (8 January 2020)

yes probably!
Mine stick their ears up my nose when they are about to launch into a massive spook and so getting that immediate yielding (in the brain really, but effectively achieved by yielding to the rein) is the way I think of it, to allow me to put them to work in another way and head off the explosion.  Chicken and egg indeed!


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## JFTDWS (8 January 2020)

milliepops said:



			yes probably!
Mine stick their ears up my nose when they are about to launch into a massive spook and so getting that immediate yielding (in the brain really, but effectively achieved by yielding to the rein) is the way I think of it, to allow me to put them to work in another way and head off the explosion.  Chicken and egg indeed!
		
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I think the head lowering physiological effects are probably less useful in those circumstances than the "physically can't spook as busy doing something else" aspect.    

I use head lowering = calmer horse = now we can move on sensibly and listening to me more in a situation where the horse raises its head as a precursor to freezing / stop and staring.  I encounter this more because it tends to happen out hacking, where it's harder to distract and stuff tends to be more likely to appear on the horizon.  In an arena, the distract and ride forward approach is more useful (and more likely to be concealable in a dressage test!).


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## milliepops (8 January 2020)

yeah I think I'd agree with that. I do find the physiological thing helpful on the ground in general handling.  neither of mine are remotely useful hacks for various control-related reasons (work in progress! ) so it's definitely about distraction and also reducing their essential brute power against me from the saddle


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## JFTDWS (8 January 2020)

Mine have to be hackable or they'd be unrideable with my facilities, so I have to convince them it's a good idea and that they don't have a brute power advantage over me.  I'm not sure Skye even realises she's a horse and I'm a human   It's the best kept secret...  The sneakiest thing I taught her is to turn her head to my knee when I tap her neck - impossible to do that with her neck up and tense, so it always takes the edge off!


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## J&S (8 January 2020)

It would seem that you two are using the old secret that horses can't think of two things at the same time!  It does also come down to being confident enough in one's ability to provide the distraction in the first place!   A less confident rider can freeze, this then allows the horse to take over.
 My (retired, but hacks round the lanes ) mare can get quite upset by certain things and my tactic is to get her well rounded  and ride along saying as confidently as possible "you can cope"......... just  saying this aloud is very effective, it could be aimed at the horse OR myself!!


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## doodle (8 January 2020)

J&S said:



			It would seem that you two are using the old secret that horses can't think of two things at the same time!  It does also come down to being confident enough in one's ability to provide the distraction in the first place!   A less confident rider can freeze, this then allows the horse to take over.
My (retired, but hacks round the lanes ) mare can get quite upset by certain things and my tactic is to get her well rounded  and ride along saying as confidently as possible "you can cope"......... just  saying this aloud is very effective, it could be aimed at the horse OR myself!!
		
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I do similar but in our case it is “you’re fine”, again could be aimed at me or the horse!


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## JFTDWS (8 January 2020)

J&S said:



			and ride along saying as confidently as possible "you can cope"......... just  saying this aloud is very effective, it could be aimed at the horse OR myself!!
		
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My phrase of choice is currently "I was the lion", which is a rather niche reference to The Horse and his Boy, and puts me in the position of Aslan...  It might be fair to say I have a superiority complex


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## daffy44 (8 January 2020)

JFTDWS said:



			My phrase of choice is currently "I was the lion", which is a rather niche reference to The Horse and his Boy, and puts me in the position of Aslan...  It might be fair to say I have a superiority complex 

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Genius!  I love that book.


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## EllenJay (8 January 2020)

HazuraJane said:



			EllenJay, this is a very insightful reply. You've made many good points. Hopefully, this will put perspective in place for OP - it certainly did for me. Thank you.
		
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Pleased I could have been of some help. xx


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## JFTDWS (8 January 2020)

daffy44 said:



			Genius!  I love that book.
		
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Bloody brilliant, isn't it.  There was only one lion...  I was the lion...

I'm slightly relieved someone gets it and I've not been written off as a complete nutter!


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## Orangehorse (8 January 2020)

scats said:



			Just to add, once I realised how crucial your core is when riding hot horses, it made a huge difference to how I rode them.  It suddenly became apparent to me that you can ‘hold’ a hot horse with your core muscles, without having to take any more hold than your normal contact.  Millie has a very hot canter and I sometimes have to really engage my abdominal muscles to avoid having to take pull when she starts getting opinionated.  I can bring her back to trot this way too.
		
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Look at the saddleseat riders, riding the hot Morgans, saddlebreds, the showing situation is that they should look really hot, but controlled by the lightest of aids.  In saddleseat you have no leg contact below the knee, you are using a long shank double bridle that needs the lightest, lightest of contact, weight of the reins really, yet the horses should have the correct way of going, obey the aids immediately and incidently go from gallop, or extended canter at least, to halt, stand still and then walk off quietly.  This is achieved by those core muscles and a little thigh muscle and seat.

I was watching a lesson from a saddleseat instructor once and although I can't remember the exact words, she said exactly what Mary Wanless had said about dressage riding and I said to her afterwards that she was the only other person who had said that.  About being plugged in with your seatbones and using that core!


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## daffy44 (8 January 2020)

JFTDWS said:



			Bloody brilliant, isn't it.  There was only one lion...  I was the lion...

I'm slightly relieved someone gets it and I've not been written off as a complete nutter!
		
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I totally get it, I absolutely love all the Narnia books, and the second I read "I was the lion" I remembered it so well!  If your a nutter, I am too...


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## JFTDWS (8 January 2020)

daffy44 said:



			I totally get it, I absolutely love all the Narnia books, and the second I read "I was the lion" I remembered it so well!  If your a nutter, I am too...
		
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At least we're nutters together


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## sportsmansB (10 January 2020)

The grey mare in my sig sounds like she was very like Amber 
She was always 'on her game'- never lost fitness, never missed anything, went at life like a whirlwind. She wasn't 'hot' the way some people think (naughty, spooky) but she was incredibly forward, with a very very quick brain. She was always working out what might happen next, and anticipating, and trying to make decisions for both of us. She didn't like not 'getting things right' first time - we couldn't repeat in the school for a new movement as she got frustrated and just bounced or cantered off once she got fed up. We rarely had to though, as she got most things first time. When she first came, she used to lock on to a fence every time she left the outside track (she had been show jumped and basically flatwork was just a warm up for jumping for her, few goes each way and she was jumping no matter what!). My trainer 'got' her, and we had plenty of tricks to stay in front of her and keep her guessing, so that we could get good work and she HAD to listen because she stopped being able to anticipate. Then she seemed to gain a bit more respect for me and realised we could both have a say. I was never able to canter in a dresage warmup though, as once we had canted both ways she felt that dressage was done, thank you very much. Best tests were when we went up to the harder ones and got the canter the final centre line, she loved that (!). 

I didn't put her in situations where I knew I would lose her again (never hunted or fast hacked in company) as she would have just gone and I couldn't stop her.. 

HOWEVER - that smartness, forward thinking, working out what was coming next - made her the best cross country horse I have ever ridden. She read every fence, she knew the flags, she just got it. At the beginning we couldn't go cross country because I couldn't stop (!) but as time went on and the partnership developed that changed. 
I kept her out 24/7 (for health reasons to, she choked on hay), didn't really do any specific fitness work apart from hacking which she loved, and didn't feed her too much either, just fibre based stuff. I can't even imagine waht she would have been like if she'd been stabled to be honest, I think she would have wound herself up into a frenzy. It was like the only time the world went quickly enough for Bella was when she left the start box XC. 
I think the outdoor lifestyle was the key for her. 

My current gelding, lovely as he is, is a bit boring in comparison- but I think every horse will be.


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## Skib (10 January 2020)

May be it is worth repeating what someone once said to me. I ride many many transitions to get RS horses quick off the leg. But every upward transition also involves a downward one. I used to alternate canter 6 strides, then 6 trot.  There were parts of the track out hacking where the horses were used to canter long distance - some yards  dont seem to envisage short canters - but I insisted my share would canter just six strides. I did it by beginning canter only when we got near the end of the track. I plan to treach this to the current share.
Having watched Amber  being taught to go quietly over poles and then take a jump. I think one could do the same - trot the poles  with no jump there and transition to canter instead. But canter only a few  strides.

However, no one has yet told me how to canter a mare second when the mare wants to lead.


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## Roxylola (10 January 2020)

Sort of goes back to the "you just need to ride her better".  I think you are clearly capable of riding Amber and rather than trying to turn her into a dobbin you need to up your game to get the best results.
You can train a horse to listen better, to be more on the aids all round; you can train a stressed and anxious horse to take direction and relax more.  But you can't change their basic nature.  Amber likes her job, you like her liking her job - enjoy it more and worry less (easier said than done)
Skib, as you have something so specific you might find you are better starting a thread for that purpose.  There is an awful lot of things that might help but I think it deserves a discussion of it's own.


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## Ambers Echo (10 January 2020)

SportsmanB that does sound very like Amber!

Skib, I use that exercise from the Tik Maynard clinic quite a lot. I also have an exercise where I set out a course of jumps that are up to height, but jump one is a cross pole on an angle so I can jump it off either rein and either direction. So I can jump it as a figure of 8 - jump, turn left; jump, turn right etc. The aim being to canter the fig 8 very calmly and rhythmically. Once she is calm throughout the figure of 8 I proceed to fence 2 expecting the same rhythm. If she jumps that calmly we move on round the course but anytime she starts accelerating we go back to the figure 8 to re-ballance her and get her back on the aids. And sometimes I just randomly go back to the figure 8 anyway so she does not just get faster and flatter all the way round a course. I am having the novel experience of CALM rounds of jumping but it takes a while to get there and I am not sure that calmness will transfer to a new venue but it's a start. As for cantering 2nd - I can't canter Amber behind either.


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## Ambers Echo (10 January 2020)

Roxylola said:



			Sort of goes back to the "you just need to ride her better".  I think you are clearly capable of riding Amber and rather than trying to turn her into a dobbin you need to up your game to get the best results.
You can train a horse to listen better, to be more on the aids all round; you can train a stressed and anxious horse to take direction and relax more.  But you can't change their basic nature.  Amber likes her job, you like her liking her job - enjoy it more and worry less (easier said than done)
		
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Yes my hope was that I could make her easier because she does sometimes scare me but I am not sure that is possible. I think that has been my misunderstanding all these years - getting a horse well schooled and listening does not mean making them easy for anyone to ride.  I have always thought of her as fairly easy anyway because she is kind and willing. And rarely bucks or anything like that. But my RI said the other day that she was far from easy and I needed to recognise that. My RI had her on schooling livery for one holiday and knows very well what she is like to ride.


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## Roxylola (10 January 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Yes my hope was that I could make her easier because she does sometimes scare me but I am not sure that is possible.
...
I have always thought of her as fairly easy anyway because she is kind and willing. And rarely bucks or anything like that. But my RI said the other day that she was far from easy and I needed to recognise that. My RI had her on schooling livery for one holiday and knows very well what she is like to ride.
		
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Maybe you are underestimating yourself as a rider, she doesn't sound "easy", she sounds nice and pleasant to ride (most of the time) but not like she'd be anybody's ride.  And yet there you are going out doing ODE with her.


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## Ambers Echo (10 January 2020)

Roxylola said:



			Maybe you are underestimating yourself as a rider, she doesn't sound "easy", she sounds nice and pleasant to ride (most of the time) but not like she'd be anybody's ride.  And yet there you are going out doing ODE with her.
		
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How I feel I am doing depends what point of view I take: As a rider, I have gone from 70cm unaffiliated on an easy pony to BE90 on a challenging horse and from being towed around to actually influencing my horse to some degree.  So I as a rider have improved a lot over the 3 years I've had her. Amber, on the other hand, is still only using a fraction of her ability. So I have done a pretty rubbish job of producing her. I can't help thinking about where she could be with a decent rider who would have gone out BE with her 3 years ago and be goodness knows where with her by now.

But I know I am not the rider to help her reach her potential. I am just trying to get as good as we can be together. I will always be the limiting factor in our partnership and I guess that does not really matter. At least that is what I keep telling myself!


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## milliepops (10 January 2020)

many of us are the limiting factors though. People say the average horse can get up to medium level dressage, I'd say that it's the combination of horse and rider, not the horse itself that means so many stop there rather than mastering the changes and more advanced work. I've produced Kira beyond what she would ordinarily achieve, being an obtuse native pony, but I am still the limiting factor that means she doesn't do any better, because I am her trainer and I'm learning at the same time as teaching her. She can do 1 tempis and piaffe, it's my ineptitude that means we can't do 13 good ones in a row or get a GP level piaffe.

The same applies in eventing, for many many horses, until they can't meet the required speeds/heights. I'd say Millie maxed out at Novice because the intermediate XC speed was too fast to go safely on her short legs. We could have carried on but been uncompetitive because of time pens.  But I'd already limited us to Novice by being shit scared of the enormous Int showjumps!!


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## Ambers Echo (10 January 2020)

Yes I guess so. Though actually I think some riders improve their horses beyond what  might normally be expected and you ad Kira fit into that category. There are degrees of limitation!


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## ihatework (10 January 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			How I feel I am doing depends what point of view I take: As a rider, I have gone from 70cm unaffiliated on an easy pony to BE90 on a challenging horse and from being towed around to actually influencing my horse to some degree.  So I as a rider have improved a lot over the 3 years I've had her. Amber, on the other hand, is still only using a fraction of her ability. So I have done a pretty rubbish job of producing her. I can't help thinking about where she could be with a decent rider who would have gone out BE with her 3 years ago and be goodness knows where with her by now.

But I know I am not the rider to help her reach her potential. I am just trying to get as good as we can be together. I will always be the limiting factor in our partnership and I guess that does not really matter. At least that is what I keep telling myself!
		
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As a hardened Eventing fan I would love to see what Amber did in professional hands because I think she is supremely talented.

But do not take that the wrong way. It is a compliment of the horse NOT a criticism of you.

She is your horse, you have done a great job getting to where you are now given your limited previous experience and you still have a lot further to go. Easier said than done, but you need to enjoy this journey while it lasts.

when you get a chance have a listen to this:
http://eventingpodcast.com/ief-spec...Naic_wWR96rPm2xPgpU8qUzxH_nG7J8Q7ymRyqOTPSC8U


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## oldie48 (10 January 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			How I feel I am doing depends what point of view I take: As a rider, I have gone from 70cm unaffiliated on an easy pony to BE90 on a challenging horse and from being towed around to actually influencing my horse to some degree.  So I as a rider have improved a lot over the 3 years I've had her. Amber, on the other hand, is still only using a fraction of her ability. So I have done a pretty rubbish job of producing her. I can't help thinking about where she could be with a decent rider who would have gone out BE with her 3 years ago and be goodness knows where with her by now.

But I know I am not the rider to help her reach her potential. I am just trying to get as good as we can be together. I will always be the limiting factor in our partnership and I guess that does not really matter. At least that is what I keep telling myself!
		
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Gosh, don't be so hard on yourself. There is a lovely article in this week's H&H by Carl H. Last paragraph when he is talking about Escapado who he finished third on in the Europeans. "I wish I'd had the knowledge and experience I have now because he was a very hot type of horse, he still could have been even better".


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## milliepops (10 January 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Yes I guess so. Though actually I think some riders improve their horses beyond what  might normally be expected and you ad Kira fit into that category. There are degrees of limitation!
		
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Well yes, but  IMO it's better (more fun, more interesting, safer) to have a horse that is potentially better at a sport than you are, because they can help you out when you need it. Than a horse that you think you can teach to do stuff which is beyond its natural talents... i wouldn't want to be trying to take Kira XC for instance, I am more capable than she is there so in theory I ought to be able to produce her for it, but it would be recipe for diaster!


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## milliepops (10 January 2020)

ihatework said:



			Easier said than done, but you need to enjoy this journey while it lasts.
		
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Very very much agree with this, too. 
Knowing your weaknesses and having a plan to address them is important, its the only way any of us get better. 
But she's a wonderful horse, try and do a bit of living in the moment enjoying her too


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## Roxylola (10 January 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Amber, on the other hand, is still only using a fraction of her ability. So I have done a pretty rubbish job of producing her. I can't help thinking about where she could be with a decent rider who would have gone out BE with her 3 years ago and be goodness knows where with her by now.

But I know I am not the rider to help her reach her potential. I am just trying to get as good as we can be together. I will always be the limiting factor in our partnership and I guess that does not really matter. At least that is what I keep telling myself!
		
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So what?  You and she are (I think) having a great time together.  No horse is wasted who is cared for and having their needs met appropriately.  No horse sits in the field watching the world go by and thinks if only I had a better rider I could have been at Badminton/HOYS etc - that is the prerogative of 5 year old children!


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## Ambers Echo (10 January 2020)

ihatework said:



			As a hardened Eventing fan I would love to see what Amber did in professional hands because I think she is supremely talented.

But do not take that the wrong way. It is a compliment of the horse NOT a criticism of you.

She is your horse, you have done a great job getting to where you are now given your limited previous experience and you still have a lot further to go. Easier said than done, but you need to enjoy this journey while it lasts.

when you get a chance have a listen to this:
http://eventingpodcast.com/ief-spec...Naic_wWR96rPm2xPgpU8qUzxH_nG7J8Q7ymRyqOTPSC8U

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Thanks I will have a listen later. Yes I need to enjoy the journey. It could all end anytime. And much as I'd also love to see her out there playing with the big boys, I love her too much to give her up. I just have to remember how extraordinarily lucky I am to have a horse like her to ride.


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## Ambers Echo (10 January 2020)

milliepops said:



			Well yes, but  IMO it's better (more fun, more interesting, safer) to have a horse that is potentially better at a sport than you are, because they can help you out when you need it. Than a horse that you think you can teach to do stuff which is beyond its natural talents... i wouldn't want to be trying to take Kira XC for instance, I am more capable than she is there so in theory I ought to be able to produce her for it, but it would be recipe for diaster!
		
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I've never thought of it that way. It is nice to know Amber is nowhere near her limit when I out her at a fence.


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## Ambers Echo (10 January 2020)

Thanks everyone, feel free to give me a cyber-slap. I've just been a bit more windy than usual after she carted me at Somerford a couple of weeks ago! 

Pic evidence for a giggle....








And then my 'jumping' lesson where I did not leave the ground. And then a hairy hack yesterday. So I'm back in 'I can't ride this horse' mode. But I CAN ride her. I dealt with all those situations, and today she was awesome. I'll shut up now.


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## splashgirl45 (10 January 2020)

you are much more capable than you think,  you have a lovely horse who is being looked after beautifully by you and you are learning more each time you ride her.  just enjoy what you have and dont worry about reaching her potential, she will be happy with lots of turn out and plenty of food just the same as other horses.  i am sure you wouldnt want a safe plod who could barely jump a cross pole ,  just remember to have lots of fun..


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## Ambers Echo (10 January 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			you are much more capable than you think,  you have a lovely horse who is being looked after beautifully by you and you are learning more each time you ride her.  just enjoy what you have and dont worry about reaching her potential, she will be happy with lots of turn out and plenty of food just the same as other horses.  i am sure you wouldnt want a safe plod who could barely jump a cross pole ,  just remember to have lots of fun..

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Thank-you, that's a lovely thing to say.


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## sportsmansB (10 January 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Thank-you, that's a lovely thing to say.
		
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And please, please do enjoy and treasure every moment.
The mare I compared her to was taken far too soon, and I wish I had put my brave pants on a bit sooner and got more done with her. Like you, she was working at about 25% of her capability level - but don't feel bad about that, treasure it- who doesn't want to be cantering down to a 1m fence knowing their horse could jump the advanced track?!


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## milliepops (10 January 2020)

sportsmansB said:



			but don't feel bad about that, treasure it- who doesn't want to be cantering down to a 1m fence knowing their horse could jump the advanced track?!
		
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Love this.
Don't shut up, AE, some of the threads you start are the most interesting ones on the forum so I would hate to think you felt like you shouldn't express this stuff, but also don't get stuck trying SO hard that you forget to sniff the roses


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## Ambers Echo (10 January 2020)

Sorry about your mare, SportsmanB. How sad. And an important reminder to enjoy the journey.



sportsmansB said:



			treasure it- who doesn't want to be cantering down to a 1m fence knowing their horse could jump the advanced track?!
		
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I love this too!


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## Upthecreek (10 January 2020)

I love that we all worry so much about our horses not reaching their potential & constantly question whether we are good enough for them. That is what motivates us to keep going when times are hard & to keep trying to improve & develop as riders. Never lose that, but rest assured that no horse ever was disappointed that it’s rider wasn’t good enough to help it reach it’s potential. The most important thing is that we are giving our horses a good quality of life & making sure they are healthy & their basic needs are met. Enjoy what you have & push those feelings of self-criticism away - a belated New Year’s resolution!


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## Alibear (14 January 2020)

I would say that with consistent riding over a number of years you can.  There's will always be the odd higher energy day but a mare I bought as no ones ride at aged 7 turned into a very reliable mount by age 13. It took a lot of work and she was never a beginners ride but became utterly reliable for me and my more novice sister.


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## Leandy (15 January 2020)

Upthecreek said:



			I love that we all worry so much about our horses not reaching their potential & constantly question whether we are good enough for them. That is what motivates us to keep going when times are hard & to keep trying to improve & develop as riders. Never lose that, but rest assured that no horse ever was disappointed that it’s rider wasn’t good enough to help it reach it’s potential. The most important thing is that we are giving our horses a good quality of life & making sure they are healthy & their basic needs are met. Enjoy what you have & push those feelings of self-criticism away - a belated New Year’s resolution!
		
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Completely agree with this.  The horse doesn't care, in fact most would, I suspect, prefer not to reach their potential.  Too much effort!  Too much risk of injury etc.   The same goes for the drive for people to reach their potential.  Too stressful for many, who just want a quiet, comfortable life.


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## milliepops (15 January 2020)

thought of this again yesterday while having a particularly wild ride 
I think I'm fairly good at nipping Kira's antics in the bud through riding emphatically leg to hand and just not letting her entertain the naughty thoughts, but still not good enough to prevent them all the time.
 Yesterday was fairly exceptional because the weather was appalling but we still had lots of dancing around on the hindlegs and teleport-spooks.  She became infinitely better when really given a job to do so she didn't have anywhere near as much brainspace to do pissing about. A more novice rider or someone not as sticky may not have even got as far as being able to put her to work but as I know her inside out it was just a spell we had to get through while she agreed to let me control her thoughts and organise her body.    she didn't become calm, she just became focussed and then she was pretty rideable. 

Many of us have similar horses. I think it's easy to overlook how much you do as a rider because I went more or less into autopilot but without knowing how to do that she'd have been back in the unrideable section. I think you can think you've calmed your horse down, but actually you've just tuned its brain into a more useful set of stimuli and if you stop giving them then it will revert back to being a nutcase


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## oldie48 (15 January 2020)

Just to add to MPs post, I had an interesting situation with Rose on Monday. She is not a hot horse as such, I would describe her as a bit backward thinking, but when she loses the plot she can be quite a handful. I took her to my trainer's yard and as luck would have it Storm Brian (or some such name) was doing it's worst so I led her down to the indoor school in a howling gale and pouring rain. Building work was going on next door and suddenly she decided she couldn't cope and I had her passaging, piaffing and rearing in hand. Trainer put her on the lunge and gave her something to do rather than think about the commotion going on. I (reluctantly) got on and we did all the control type exercises that we've been working on. eg round enough, soft enough, infront of the leg, listening to the leg, keep chucking movemnts at her so she had to listen to me. I still had a horse on the edge but she actually did some of the very best work ever and she felt increasingly rideable and soft. It was a massive confidence boost for me as I felt I could use that energy to help me rather than being intimidated by it.


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## Ambers Echo (15 January 2020)

That's really interesting oldie48 and MP and I feel Deedee is  similar. Maybe they all do better with a job.

I rode Deedee in a lesson at the weekend - again in a gale! I've not really ridden her before - Izzy has done all the riding - but Izzy is out of action so I need to work her. She is feeling VERY VERY VERY well at the moment! She's  the type who needs riding pretty much every day anyway and it just has not been possible with the weather. So I needed a lot of persuading to get on board (and indeed stay on board as after 10 minutes I got off again!) But eventually I got my leg on, rode her properly, gave her a job and she really settled and did some lovely work. It's just very hard to do for a windy rider! Amber can be over the top but I know where things go with her - and she never throws her toys out the pram or bucks/broncs. With a new one it's had to know where that energy will end up!

ETA I have only just seen some really nice helpful replies on page 1 that I somehow missed first time round! Thanks all. xx


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## oldie48 (15 January 2020)

That's really interesting oldie48 and MP and I feel Deedee is  similar. Maybe they all do better with a job.
Ha, trainer would substitute "job" with "rider". One of her biggest beefs is that when a horse really needs a rider ie when it's being tricky that's when so many riders eg me, stop riding. It's taken me the best part of a year to have the confidence to ride Rose when she's being difficult for exactly the same reason as you give, not sure what it will escalate to. Well done for sticking with DeeDee in such vile conditions, I cancelled on Saturday! Edit to say, trainer said to cut Rose's feed down which I have done, you might try the same with DeeDee.


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## Ambers Echo (15 January 2020)

That;s exactly what my RI said! She was saying Deedee needs you to tell her what to do.


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## daffy44 (15 January 2020)

I think this is pretty normal, I teach it all the time, even in calm situations you need to give the horse a job to do.  Obviously it depends on the character of the horse, but so many riders are not pro active enough in asking the horse to do something, and then the lazy horse switches off and becomes dead to the aids, the spooky horse gets spookier, the hot horse gets hotter, but its all the same issue.  Most riders when in a situation they find scary freeze and hang on for dear life (very understandable!)  and are just praying "please dont spook/buck/gallop off)  unfortunately praying isnt that effective.  If you can keep breathing, and instead of praying start thinking of things you CAN do, eg keeping a positive, forward rhythm, changes of direction, different size circles, transitions, lateral work (if the horse understands it)  all these things give you and the horse something positive to focus on and it solves a huge number of problems.  Its the same with young horses, they are prey animals, and they want to trust a positive, confident leader, if they feel the leader is not in control they take over, and thats not good, they want to know who is flying the plane.


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## Missidi (15 January 2020)

I had a bit of a light bulb moment along these lines when riding a sensitive soul last week. I realised that I was aiming not to do anything to make him worried, but what I needed to do was to do things to make him calm, ie. I had to be giving him a job and keeping him focussed on me


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## milliepops (15 January 2020)

daffy44 said:



			I think this is pretty normal, I teach it all the time, even in calm situations you need to give the horse a job to do.  Obviously it depends on the character of the horse, but so many riders are not pro active enough in asking the horse to do something, and then the lazy horse switches off and becomes dead to the aids, the spooky horse gets spookier, the hot horse gets hotter, but its all the same issue.  Most riders when in a situation they find scary freeze and hang on for dear life (very understandable!)  and are just praying "please dont spook/buck/gallop off)  unfortunately praying isnt that effective.  If you can keep breathing, and instead of praying start thinking of things you CAN do, eg keeping a positive, forward rhythm, changes of direction, different size circles, transitions, lateral work (if the horse understands it)  all these things give you and the horse something positive to focus on and it solves a huge number of problems.  Its the same with young horses, they are prey animals, and they want to trust a positive, confident leader, if they feel the leader is not in control they take over, and thats not good, they want to know who is flying the plane.
		
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good summary.
Had another dose of this today riding Darcy, he really appreciates the leadership thing and I slightly struggle to give him ENOUGH clear guidance, as I'm used to horses that will be fairly self sufficient in between instructions.
I have started telling myself to take control - sounds stupid but I need to remind myself to do that in the microsecond where something can go from totally fine to completely *not fine*  it's my job to hold his hand then and make sure he feels like he knows exactly what his job is leaving no room for misunderstanding.

Main thing for me with a hot one is to engineer a situation where I can get my leg on. With Darcy that's leg yieldy circles at the moment, I just have to park the feeling that they are rubbish when he's jittering all over the place and wait for the exercise to do its work. When I can ride him forward properly then it feels a lot less dicey.


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## daffy44 (15 January 2020)

milliepops said:



			good summary.
Had another dose of this today riding Darcy, he really appreciates the leadership thing and I slightly struggle to give him ENOUGH clear guidance, as I'm used to horses that will be fairly self sufficient in between instructions.
I have started telling myself to take control - sounds stupid but I need to remind myself to do that in the microsecond where something can go from totally fine to completely *not fine*  it's my job to hold his hand then and make sure he feels like he knows exactly what his job is leaving no room for misunderstanding.

Main thing for me with a hot one is to engineer a situation where I can get my leg on. With Darcy that's leg yieldy circles at the moment, I just have to park the feeling that they are rubbish when he's jittering all over the place and wait for the exercise to do its work. When I can ride him forward properly then it feels a lot less dicey.
		
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100% agree, I think being able to get your leg on is vital from the start, hot horse or not.  At home on even an educated, sensible horse, once I've walked, trotted in a stretch the next thing I do is move the horse around from my leg, just in walk, but I need to know I can get my leg on and get the responses I want.  With a youngster or hotter horse its even more vital, I want to get them moving under my control, and leg yield, either on a circle or to the wall is top of my list, as I have to be able to egt my leg on safely asap.


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## maya2008 (20 January 2020)

daffy44 said:



			100% agree, I think being able to get your leg on is vital from the start, hot horse or not.  At home on even an educated, sensible horse, once I've walked, trotted in a stretch the next thing I do is move the horse around from my leg, just in walk, but I need to know I can get my leg on and get the responses I want.  With a youngster or hotter horse its even more vital, I want to get them moving under my control, and leg yield, either on a circle or to the wall is top of my list, as I have to be able to egt my leg on safely asap.
		
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My hottest one (that no one else wants to ride out hacking 😂) is a sweet dream to ride if you put your leg ON and ride her into your hand. The silliness melts away and she becomes obedient and sensible. I can hack her bareback, leading a child on a pony... But no one ever listens when she is getting faster and faster and I am telling them to put their leg on to slow down!!


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## Ambers Echo (21 January 2020)

Haha - to slow Jenny down you just need to drop the reins. Just drop them onto her neck and she goes 'oh is work over for now' and comes back to walk. Pick them up again and she's like 'yippee where are we going' and she's off again. God I love that pony x.


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## Ambers Echo (21 January 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Amber can be over the top but I know where things go with her - and she never throws her toys out the pram or bucks/broncs. With a new one it's had to know where that energy will end up!
x
		
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⁹
Well this didn't age well . Famous last words eh. OR a helpful reminder that Saturday was a one off and not to panic!


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## milliepops (21 January 2020)

A helpful reminder not to panic


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## tristar (21 January 2020)

anything thats too hot  gets less food, max turnout,  polework sessions to give opportunity to express bucking tendencies without rider on board,  before ridden work its lunged before riding, and  when mounted its walked positively round the yard in circles and changes of direction, then onto the surface and straight into shoulder in twisting turning bending in walk and soon a brain is in same gear as me i move forward into a trot warm up.

i dont give anything time to think about sissing around i get on and go,  so i can use all that lovely energy in a positive way and not let it become naughty habits,


i would never sit there letting the horse decide whos in charge, i make it quite clear what i want, then when its settled i back right off and allow the horse to show me what its its good at on the day and become the 80 20 per cent i want in a relationship with the horse,   80 the horse effort  20 me sitting there enjoying it


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## Ambers Echo (26 January 2020)

Ok more thoughts on this.... I read that Peter de Cosemo article that I thought was on this thread but can't find again now and loved it. For anyone that did not see it - advice is to ride into arena, halt, smoke a cigar and read the paper till horse is basically asleep then put horse away. Repeat daily for 2 weeks. Hey presto - horse that can chill out even with a rider on. It got me thinking that even the hottest horse is chilled and relaxed most of the time - grazing, snoozing, mooching about. Why are they not like that as soon as a rider gets on. It seems likely that it is either tension/anxiety or expectation/learned behaviour or both. And that technique would address both. Whereas immediately directing the energy and getting cracking reinforces the expectation that ridden work must be productive and active. So yesterday we did something similar to that with Deedee. 5 minutes ground work till she was totally chilled. Then 5 minutes stood at the mounting block till she was totally chilled. Then 5 minutes sat on stationary till she was totally chilled, then a 15 minutes amble round he arena in the buckle till her head was below the withers. Then put away. There was a lot of sighing and blowing by the end so I think she has been carrying a lot of tension. Wondered if anyone else has actually put that Peter de Cosemo advice into practice and with what outcomes?


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## JFTDWS (26 January 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Haha - to slow Jenny down you just need to drop the reins. Just drop them onto her neck and she goes 'oh is work over for now' and comes back to walk. Pick them up again and she's like 'yippee where are we going' and she's off again. God I love that pony x.
		
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That's what Carrot's like too - if you let the reins hang on her neck she plods.  If you pick them up in both hands, she seeks a contact and wakes up.  If you pick them up in a left handed bridge halfway up her neck, the head comes up and bouncy pony mode is established 


I haven't seen the de Cosemo article, but I have seen the cigar method before.  It's largely what I do when I'm backing and working horses in their very early days, and at any point where I feel they're becoming unnecessarily stressed about life.

Except the cigar.  That's a bit unnecessary.


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## milliepops (26 January 2020)

a vaguely related thing which is so obvious but easy to forget, is that the nature of horses means they are easily startled/stressed by things but that they can get over that stress quite fast.  e.g. a horse in the field might startle over something flapping in the wind, but it quickly figures out that it's not actually something dangerous. This being important in the wild, otherwise they would spend more time running away than eating, and starve to death.  they easily become on high alert, but equally settle back to an equilibrium fairly readily.

My trainer mentioned this a while back and it helped me to think about it when I am training my loopy ones. Of course they do sometimes seem to milk a situation sometimes too


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## DirectorFury (26 January 2020)

I'd love to read that article if you do manage to unearth it AE. I've been having nightmares with M (to the point where I've barely ridden for 2 months because I cba to deal it) and I wonder if that technique might solve our problems.


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## milliepops (26 January 2020)

was it this one? https://peterdecosemo.wordpress.com...lse-false-microsoftinternetexplorer4-style-4/


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## Lammy (26 January 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Ok more thoughts on this.... I read that Peter de Cosemo article that I thought was on this thread but can't find again now and loved it. For anyone that did not see it - advice is to ride into arena, halt, smoke a cigar and read the paper till horse is basically asleep then put horse away. Repeat daily for 2 weeks. Hey presto - horse that can chill out even with a rider on. It got me thinking that even the hottest horse is chilled and relaxed most of the time - grazing, snoozing, mooching about. Why are they not like that as soon as a rider gets on. It seems likely that it is either tension/anxiety or expectation/learned behaviour or both. And that technique would address both. Whereas immediately directing the energy and getting cracking reinforces the expectation that ridden work must be productive and active. So yesterday we did something similar to that with Deedee. 5 minutes ground work till she was totally chilled. Then 5 minutes stood at the mounting block till she was totally chilled. Then 5 minutes sat on stationary till she was totally chilled, then a 15 minutes amble round he arena in the buckle till her head was below the withers. Then put away. There was a lot of sighing and blowing by the end so I think she has been carrying a lot of tension. Wondered if anyone else has actually put that Peter de Cosemo advice into practice and with what outcomes?
		
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I’m really going to try and put this into practice with my lad as reading this makes me think it will help him. When people watch him they think he is a very ‘hot’ type and while he is sensitive, he is actually, very, very anxious. And as someone said up thread it’s his brain that is hot, not his body. 

He gets very anxious when schooling alone and can be a very difficult ride that energy then goes into throwing shapes and generally being very fizzy. We moved yards in October and while at the last yard he would be chilled on the yard on his own or the field or in the school, here he is a completely different animal. We’ve now conquered the fear of being alone on the yard and in the field but have been struggling with the school. 

I can get on and get him calm and working within about 15 minutes and while it’s a big improvement from where we were, I’d like to start off with a chilled out horse. The above sounds like a good approach for that.
I will try it this afternoon and see what results I get as that is a really interesting method AA and will be interested to see how DeeDee gets on too.


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## Ambers Echo (26 January 2020)

milliepops said:



			was it this one? https://peterdecosemo.wordpress.com...lse-false-microsoftinternetexplorer4-style-4/

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Yes that's the one. I'm definitely doing this with both Deedee and Amber. I'll report back!


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## maya2008 (27 January 2020)

Anxious horses need a stronger bond with their human, in trust not affection terms, and for that human to prove themselves a worthy leader who will keep them safe. That is what you build out hacking solo, but also going to new places etc where your horse has no one else to trust but you. The more you are calm, keep them safe and help them cope, the more they will trust you, and the less worried they will be. Mine will hide behind me at first when they are young, but soon learn to chill ‘cos Mum always keeps them safe. My dearly departed NF was terrified of traffic all her life because she had seen another pony killed. I could hack her out on the roads though, because so long as I was there, she felt safe. Put anyone else on her, different story!


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## HufflyPuffly (27 January 2020)

I’ve tried the waiting it out technique on Topaz but it wasn’t very successful for her, as she just became more anxious and had more time to look for more dangers. Now maybe I didn’t try for long enough? She can be a bit like it in the field/ stable too, will stand and stare at distant noises/sights.

I’ve tried it a little with Skylla, who isn’t stressy like Topaz but very buzzy and wants to go 100 miles an hour all the time. She will stand and be super patient but still want to march on as soon as you say go 🤷🏼‍♀️. 

I think it might be me, but I’d love to be able to have Skylla more relaxed and able to amble round, and Topaz not try to sideswipe me into a jump wing because ‘there was a noise’ 😱😂.


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## ihatework (27 January 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Ok more thoughts on this.... I read that Peter de Cosemo article that I thought was on this thread but can't find again now and loved it. For anyone that did not see it - advice is to ride into arena, halt, smoke a cigar and read the paper till horse is basically asleep then put horse away. Repeat daily for 2 weeks. Hey presto - horse that can chill out even with a rider on. It got me thinking that even the hottest horse is chilled and relaxed most of the time - grazing, snoozing, mooching about. Why are they not like that as soon as a rider gets on. It seems likely that it is either tension/anxiety or expectation/learned behaviour or both. And that technique would address both. Whereas immediately directing the energy and getting cracking reinforces the expectation that ridden work must be productive and active. So yesterday we did something similar to that with Deedee. 5 minutes ground work till she was totally chilled. Then 5 minutes stood at the mounting block till she was totally chilled. Then 5 minutes sat on stationary till she was totally chilled, then a 15 minutes amble round he arena in the buckle till her head was below the withers. Then put away. There was a lot of sighing and blowing by the end so I think she has been carrying a lot of tension. Wondered if anyone else has actually put that Peter de Cosemo advice into practice and with what outcomes?
		
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This isn’t a new concept surely?

When I got giant horse newly backed he ‘needed to do something’ once you first got on.

I spent quite a lot of time getting on in the car park and then spending time in reverse/half rear/pawing simply teaching him to stand still and relax. These are huge holes in many horses education. (Disclaimer: no cars were dented in this training process). From there we put it in to practice out hacking. Where safe to do so I’d just stop and he could only continue said hack once he had stopped titting around. Only ended backwards in a ditch once 😂


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## The Fuzzy Furry (27 January 2020)

ihatework said:



			This isn’t a new concept surely?
		
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No, I don't think it is - its something I've used for yrs when backing and re-schooling from the late 70's, having learned from my mother before that


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## daffy44 (27 January 2020)

As far as I am aware, no its not a new concept at all.


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## redapple (27 January 2020)

I had one that needed to go straight into a trot/canter once you were on or otherwise if you tried to keep her in walk it used to blow her mind! Eventually she didn't need to but it probably took a year to get a relaxed start. It took me a while to stop worrying about her pulling something but she never did.

This has been a really interesting thread to follow with lots of interesting (and familiar) stories! I've definitely never changed a horses default nature (whether that be hot or steady) but like others, you can learn to harness it in a way that's more useful. In a similar way, I ride a horse whose default is to rear, if she feels even slightly over faced she'll just hop right up. Now she's gone from rearing every ride to maybe every 6 months. A lot of people on the yard have said how nice it must be to have fixed that issue but like I don't think you can change a horses nature I don't think that rearing will ever not be her #1 choice of vice, to me she's a rearer that isn't currently rearing. In a similar way I think you can have a hot horse who is still hot but isn't currently showing those attributes. They are still hot, just not right now.


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## milliepops (27 January 2020)

redapple said:



			to me she's a rearer that isn't currently rearing. In a similar way I think you can have a hot horse who is still hot but isn't currently showing those attributes. They are still hot, just not right now.
		
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I think I'd agree with this.
One of mine gets terribly hormonal, her go-to with most things she doesn't like is to rear and though I can usually head it off, we are in a rearing phase at the moment because she needs some regumate to stay on an even keel for the next month or so (vet coming thursday - bring it on!!) When she's not challenged by her own body or by me asking her to do something she objects to, you would never know she did it. At the moment we have 4 or 5 in a session without fail.  she's the same this time every year.


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## daffy44 (27 January 2020)

Redapple, I'd totally agree.  You dont change the horses fundamental nature, you learn to manage/channel/control it etc, but you dont change it, likewise whatever a horses go to behaviour under stress is, it will always be there, you will hopefully learn to manage it, but it will always be there and will reappear under enough stress.  As you say, a rearer will default to rearing under enough stress, even if they havent reared for two years, it will still be what they do when they feel too much pressure or stress.


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## J&S (27 January 2020)

I do think that we sometimes do everything too fast.  When you fit a horse/s into a working life, children and partners, time is of an essence.  I realised with my hot chestnut mare that taking everything slowly, from just walking in from the field, grooming (especially) & tacking up created a better atmosphere and helped her to relax.  TBH, this is why I prefer to ride on my own, some people are in far too much of a hurry to get the "riding" thing for the day done!  Rush through your yard jobs, but keep nice and steady when handling the horse.


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## maya2008 (27 January 2020)

The waiting it out thing... I was thinking about that today, whilst schooling in driving rain on two youngsters that aren’t 100% comfortable with being on their own with nothing else in sight. Both started off behind my leg, looking for something to spook at. If I had sat there then walked around on a loose rein, things would not have been pretty - one was calling to her mates and would not stand still once mounted, and the other really really really wanted to have a fit at the blowing plastic bag on the neighbour’s property. I got them moving and thinking and they chilled out.

But then again their behaviour didn’t bother me, I was just as calm when madam was screaming for her friends as when she was working nicely later on. I tend to make horses quiet/chilled because I can’t be bothered to get het up about their behaviour.  Some people make any horse hot, or chilled just because of how they react and how much tension they carry naturally...


Also, the waiting it out thing - what when you wanted to go back to jumping and cantering? Then it becomes exciting again.


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## Ambers Echo (28 January 2020)

maya2008 said:



			Also, the waiting it out thing - what when you wanted to go back to jumping and cantering? Then it becomes exciting again.
		
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I am not sure about that either. I spent ages with Amber at halt/walk. Just as a basic manners thing as when I bought her she had none! Then also because we went to a few clinics which involved hours of standing around and walk work. She is good now at standing for mounting and I can scramble on to her from anywhere - walls, fences, jumps etc. And she stands politely for girth and stirrup changes. But as soon as we go somewhere exciting or we canter/jump then standing still becomes a huge challenge again.

I've always struggled with Buck Brannaman describes as 'dial her up and dial her back down' . Dialing her up isnt a problem!

All these techniques make things seem so simple but I never find things like this generalise that much. Standing in halt made my horse good at standing in halt. Groundwork makes my horse good at groundwork but it does not seem to make her generally calm or generally 'respectful'.


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## HufflyPuffly (28 January 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			I am not sure about that either. I spent ages with Amber at halt/walk. Just as a basic manners thing as when I bought her she had none! Then also because we went to a few clinics which involved hours of standing around and walk work. She is good now at standing for mounting and I can scramble on to her from anywhere - walls, fences, jumps etc. And she stands politely for girth and stirrup changes. But as soon as we go somewhere exciting or we canter/jump then standing still becomes a huge challenge again.

I've always struggled with Buck Brannaman describes as 'dial her up and dial her back down' . Dialing her up isnt a problem!

All these techniques make things seem so simple but I never find things like this generalise that much. Standing in halt made my horse good at standing in halt. Groundwork makes my horse good at groundwork but it does not seem to make her generally calm or generally 'respectful'.
		
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^ This is exactly what I've found...

More so in Skylla than Topaz, but Topaz generally just needs her hand holding whereas Skylla I think is more like Amber and just wants to do everything at a run. Skylla is now amazing at standing, letting me get one anywhere too, but the moment we set off again she wants to go go go...


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## ycbm (28 January 2020)

I've written this before on other threads but worth repeating here I hope. When riding young or anxious horses I have constantly been told by trainers to get a contact to 'hold their hand' and reassure them.  I've personally usually found it more effective to release the reins and let them gawp at things for a minute or three.  It says 'I'm not worried,  why should you be?' to the horse, it stops the horse bottling up and exploding, and it prevents any nerves on the rider's part from transmitting directly down the rein. 

Like others, though, the horse doesn't walk away from the block until I say so. 

.


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## milliepops (28 January 2020)

I think it depends on the horse whether it's helpful to actually look or not, and that can change throughout their education.
One of mine really benefits from standing and looking, the other gets worse and you can feel the heart thumping away and suddenly you're launching at speed  I expect that will start to change but for now doing too much looking is a bit counterproductive.

The cigar thing probably can work wonders for some horses but like all techniques I don't think there's a one size fits all solution, and it will be useful for some and not others.


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## JFTDWS (28 January 2020)

I think, as with all things, and to an extent echoing MP above, that it's an element of tact - knowing when to ride the horse forward and give it a job, and when to stop and let them process the situation.  Sometimes standing, walking around on a long rein is the right thing to do.  Sometimes the right thing is to send them on and get them focused.  Sometimes there's probably a third option (or 300 alternatives, via medias or out of the box solutions).  Deciding when to do what depends on the horse, the circumstances and what sort of horse you want at the end - the training of a horse intended for a novice or an RS should probably be approached rather differently than one for the Olympics.

I'm a big fan of giving a horse time first.  If it can't relax enough to use the time to work it out, I'll give it a job and a distraction, but for me, the opportunity to process and relax in the face of a new or scary situation comes first.


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## milliepops (28 January 2020)

JFTDWS said:



			I'm a big fan of giving a horse time first.  If it can't relax enough to use the time to work it out, I'll give it a job and a distraction, but for me, the opportunity to process and relax in the face of a new or scary situation comes first.
		
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there's something else there about the horse actually thinking about the situation rather than just gazing about 
how many times do you see someone with a horse standing at the bottom of a horsebox ramp for instance, feet rooted to the spot and the horse totally disengaged from the situation, clearly thinking about something else?

Kira does a great impression of a horse looking at/thinking about something, until you look closely and then you see she's actually not concentrating on the thing she made a fuss about *at all*.  In the beginning I had to keep refocussing her to get her to deal with a scary thing, because she'd make a big song and dance about something and then drift away in her brain   we learned to go and noseboop scary objects because then she had to stay thinking about the actual thing.


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## oldie48 (28 January 2020)

Love these posts, so interesting! Can someone please explain how standing doing nothing helps to calm a horse. I think I could do this with Rose (backwards thinking but can be reactive) or previous horse (forward thinking but actually less reactive) and they would have been very happy to stand there all day. Two horses with very different personalities but both were much easier to manage in difficult situations if given a job to do. EG Hacking out today we met a huge lorry, if I'd given Rose the opportunity to process the situation I'm pretty sure we would have ended up under a car but leg on, into an outline and shoulder in, we survived. If it's a less urgent situation, I'm happy for her to look at something but then she's back on the aids, am I a bit of a control freak? Probably!


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## Roxylola (28 January 2020)

I see it as a life skill to teach them.  I don't think you will change their basic nature as mentioned previously, but you can teach even a hot horse that it is not appropriate to just charge off the minute weight hits the saddle. I guess for me it's another tool for the box and to use when appropriate.  I would think it's a good way to start a young horse generally


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## oldie48 (28 January 2020)

Roxylola said:



			I see it as a life skill to teach them.  I don't think you will change their basic nature as mentioned previously, but you can teach even a hot horse that it is not appropriate to just charge off the minute weight hits the saddle. I guess for me it's another tool for the box and to use when appropriate.  I would think it's a good way to start a young horse generally
		
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But a horse that moves off as soon as you get on, isn't necessarily hot, it just lacks manners, just like one that pulls like a train. Surely it's just basic training?


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## milliepops (28 January 2020)

I'd agree, buuuuuut... personally I find the basic manners type training (stand at the block and wait) a lot easier than the ridden training (don't pee off you distracta-maniac just because you're excited/there's a bird/it's a Tuesday etc)   it's *all* basic training really, just some tasks are easier to parcel off and achieve than other bits I think?


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## oldie48 (28 January 2020)

Tota


milliepops said:



			I'd agree, buuuuuut... personally I find the basic manners type training (stand at the block and wait) a lot easier than the ridden training (don't pee off you distracta-maniac just because you're excited/there's a bird/it's a Tuesday etc)   it's *all* basic training really, just some tasks are easier to parcel off and achieve than other bits I think?
		
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Totally agree but what I'm trying to understand is how making a horse stand still for a long time makes it calmer when it does have to cope with something, that's where I'm struggling.


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## Roxylola (28 January 2020)

Yes, I'd agree.  But I also think that just teaching them to stand and wait and that we don't always have to be doing something is a life skill and a useful one to have - same with a dog that never gets taught to settle and just has to be exercised to exhaustion, they aren't much fun to live with.


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## daffy44 (28 January 2020)

I agree, standing while you get on, being able to stand while you stop to chat, or do something useful is an essential life skill, but that doesnt mean that every horse has this skill.  Its relatively easy to teach a horse to relax when you drop the reins, a lot of horses teach themselves this one, but it doesnt mean that they retain the relaxation once you pick up the contact and your body language says lets go.

I think it comes down to experience and judgement as to when to let the horse look, and when to keep it occupied.  For example one of my horses is a very easy, very trainable horse, not spooky at all, but when he first started going to shows he was very excited by it, he was well behaved to travel, get on etc (I was always alone with him and had no issues at all) but the instant his feet hit the warm up he felt like he wanted to explode, and I'm 99.9% sure if I'd insisted on walk or halt at that stage it would have resulted in me eating surface.  I used to straight way go into a rising trot on a contact just for five minutes, circles, changes of rein, nothing difficult, but always telling him I was in charge and he had a job to do, after approx 5 mins of this he was relaxed and absolutely fine to walk on along rein etc.  After a little while we could start in walk and be absolutely fine, this horse is utterly safe in the busiest of warm ups now, because I never allowed him to have a bad experience.  But conversely, at the same stage, with the same horse, when he went in to do a test the best thing to do was drop the reins entirely and let him look all around at the new arena until he felt he had seen everything, and then I would pick up a contact and he would do a lovely nonspooky test.  I dont need to do that anymore either.  But it just demonstrates how its impossible to say that you must do one thing or another with a horse, they are all individuals and every situation is different.


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## oldie48 (28 January 2020)

Oh dear, I am beginning to feel a bit repetitive but Daffy44 would having your horse stand in an arena have helped him cope with what he found a worrying situation, surely it was the "giving him something to get on with and keeping his focus on you" that eventually taught him that the warm up was not a place to have a meltdown, basically he trusted you to keep him safe so when you stopped and let him have a look round the strange arena, he said, OK Mum thinks it's OK so it is. My previous horse was not good in warm ups and frankly I never felt confident to ride him through it, in our last 6 months together I think I had cracked it but it from a riding point of view (or nearly!) but sadly I lost him to colic.


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## daffy44 (28 January 2020)

oldie48 said:



			Oh dear, I am beginning to feel a bit repetitive but Daffy44 would having your horse stand in an arena have helped him cope with what he found a worrying situation, surely it was the "giving him something to get on with and keeping his focus on you" that eventually taught him that the warm up was not a place to have a meltdown, basically he trusted you to keep him safe so when you stopped and let him have a look round the strange arena, he said, OK Mum thinks it's OK so it is. My previous horse was not good in warm ups and frankly I never felt confident to ride him through it, in our last 6 months together I think I had cracked it but it from a riding point of view (or nearly!) but sadly I lost him to colic.
		
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Absolutely, thats what I said, making him stand in that warm up arena would have had a very bad ending, but giving him a simple job to do, allowing him to use some of his energy, and reminding him that I am in charge worked extremely well.

ETA:  But I was just trying to show that one size doesnt fit all, dropping the reins and letting the horse look worked well in one situation, giving the horse and job to do and not allowing too much gawping worked best in a different situation.


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## ihatework (28 January 2020)

oldie48 said:



			Tota

Totally agree but what I'm trying to understand is how making a horse stand still for a long time makes it calmer when it does have to cope with something, that's where I'm struggling.
		
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Possibly two slightly different things getting confused.

For me, if you have a horse in a high state of alert/stress and their adrenaline is sky high, you are only going to really get them back with you when that adrenaline comes down. Two main ways to do this - stop, relax, process OR work/distract until you get that relaxation. Either way is fine, if it works for the horse but IME the former is quicker if it’s possible (which it isn’t always) but it might be safer to just work them through it. 

Now, this comes back to holes in training, which really does need to be addressed early in the horses education. If the horse is happy to stand still it is helpful in so many situations. Who knew something so basic could be so difficult to achieve though. Maybe your bone idle dobbin will do this automatically, but your slightly busier horse, I find, can just get quite ansty when asked to stand still which if left unaddressed just takes one more tool out of your toolbox in times of stress when it might be needed.


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## Ambers Echo (29 January 2020)

ihatework said:



			Possibly two slightly different things getting confused.

For me, if you have a horse in a high state of alert/stress and their adrenaline is sky high, you are only going to really get them back with you when that adrenaline comes down. Two main ways to do this - stop, relax, process OR work/distract until you get that relaxation. Either way is fine, if it works for the horse but IME the former is quicker if it’s possible (which it isn’t always) but it might be safer to just work them through it.

Now, this comes back to holes in training, which really does need to be addressed early in the horses education. If the horse is happy to stand still it is helpful in so many situations. Who knew something so basic could be so difficult to achieve though. Maybe your bone idle dobbin will do this automatically, but your slightly busier horse, I find, can just get quite ansty when asked to stand still which if left unaddressed just takes one more tool out of your toolbox in times of stress when it might be needed.
		
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It sounds like the De Cosema article is misleading then? Because it implies that 2 weeks of stand/chill work means horses who can stand/chill anywhere - such as a warm up area at a busy ODE. Amber has no problem standing in the arena at home but can be a handful at an event. It does not generalise. At least it hasn't for her.


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## Ambers Echo (29 January 2020)

And just on the issue of generalizing skills from one situation to another - I did a cow working clinic with Amber. It was fab. Who knew she could be so still and focused. That was a great example of 'dial up/dial down'. She had to be so patient edging a calf to a pen one slow step at a time with long pauses but then quick off the mark to head it off if it broke to run back to the herd.  But it was clear she understood the job. I have never been able to get her as quietly focused as that again.


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## Roxylola (29 January 2020)

Those are both interesting points; one thing that occurred to me about the generalisation of stand and chill is that a warm up is much more stimulating than your arena at home.  Translating to dogs, I can have rock solid heelwork in the house for very little reward from either of my dogs, take them in the garden it gets a little harder - they are doing dog stuff and have sniffs to check, I might need a biscuit to get a response to training.  There's no point taking them to the woods and expecting heelwork for a good girl just because they can do it in the house.  The greater the external stimulation the harder it is to get the same response.  If you want it rock solid all the time you have to gradually increase the external environment - keep them under threshold.

I think if you train the chill switch you could then train it at clinics, train it at days out, train it at arena hires, train it in the working in (as in literally pay your money to get on, sit and chill and go home again) to the point that it is solid at any time.  Could take a long old time and be rather expensive in entries, transport and clinic costs - could it be worth it?  Perhaps I guess if you really want to get that response to be your go to every time.  Is it better than using a different tool for a different environment - I just cheat and up the reward for the dogs when we go to the woods - if I have a high enough reward they'll heel everywhere.  Could I train it better and do it without getting chicken grease everywhere?  Sure, does it matter enough to me to bother - nope.

The cow herding, she has a job to do she's focused and working - doesn't make her any less hot naturally, just demonstrates that she's clearly got a good brain and can focus well when she knows her job.  In the same way as she focuses on her jumping job cross country, I think you could train her to focus and listen a bit more to you maybe but I don't think you could convince her to tackle it in the same way as she tackled the cow herding.


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## milliepops (29 January 2020)

Roxylola said:



			Those are both interesting points; one thing that occurred to me about the generalisation of stand and chill is that a warm up is much more stimulating than your arena at home.  .
		
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agree with this. 
we often find that in times of stress or uncertainty, horses revert back to type even with things they have learned about in other situations. The old traits come back out. they might be more manageable because the horse has learned more about how you want it to behave but it's still bubbling under the surface.

Similar to how a horse that used to be crooked on a 20m circle but has learned and become supple enough to be straight when ridden well, will become crooked again when it's asked for a harder exercise - that straightness threshold has been breached.  Or a horse that used to barge in hand, gets anxious about loading onto an unfamiliar lorry and the barging comes back because the horse is stressed.

you can move the threshold by practicing whatever it is in different places/circumstances/exercises etc but the trait will pop back up if the horse is pushed beyond the new threshold again.


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## ycbm (29 January 2020)

I assumed most people who train young horses take them to their first events to stand around and do not much.  My objective the first few times out is to be there with a calm horse. It doesn't go into the arena if it's not. 

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## Ambers Echo (29 January 2020)

In the end it sounds like all these quick fixes turn out somewhat less simple than they appear on paper. Trainers say: Teach a horse to respect your space in an arena on a line and they will never barge as they will have learned 'respect', teach a horse to lead well and they will follow you anywhere,  install a chill switch and you can get a chilled horse anywhere.... Just not the case. It seems you need to teach what you want in the context you want it. No short cuts!


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## milliepops (29 January 2020)

ycbm said:



			I assumed most people who train young horses take them to their first events to stand around and do not much.  My objective the first few times out is to be there with a calm horse. It doesn't go into the arena if it's not.

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well again I think it depends on the horse.
If you have one that gets worse with the standing around, then in order to have a good experience it can be prudent to let the horse use some of it's nervous energy by moving around in a controllable way.

My aims when taking a horse out to its first show is for the horse to not feel overly anxious, to travel well there and back and for us both to feel confident with each other.  If it can't stand still because it's a bit overstimulated then I would decide that will come with time when it's learned that it's nothing to be worried about 

eta basically I don't want to end up putting either of us in a position where we can't solve a problem. If a horse is getting more wound up by me asking it to stand still in a stressful situation, then the risk is that it will escalate and we won't get to a position where it is quietly standing, because the challenge is too great. How many hours do you stand there while it throws a paddy and upsets all the other competitors  is the horse learning anything positive from that?

If the horse is the type that settles faster by being given a task, even if the task is trotting some potato shapes on a contact for 15 mins, then it will get back on the lorry having learned something useful about trotting potatoes away from home  JMO!


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## Roxylola (29 January 2020)

ycbm said:



			I assumed most people who train young horses take them to their first events to stand around and do not much.  My objective the first few times out is to be there with a calm horse. It doesn't go into the arena if it's not.
		
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  I'd agree to an extent - I'm certainly not taking something in to an arena for the sake of it when it's lost its mind (I don't bounce any more) but if cracking on in trot and canter for 10 minutes will settle the horse why not do that.  I'm not so determined to have a horse that can just stand and chill for 30 minutes in any environment that I'll commit to training it in every single environment, I just want one that does it's job.  For me that's a compromise I'm happy enough with.


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## ycbm (29 January 2020)

Yes, sorry MP I meant it figuratively not literally, which was a bit dumb considering the discussion had been about standing absolutely still 🤣


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## ycbm (29 January 2020)

It wouldn't worry me much if a horse wouldn't stand completely still for long periods, that seems to me to be only required by working western horses.

Lots, TBs in particular, seem to find it very stressful.

I'd normally concentrate on a relaxed amble rather than a relaxed  prolonged halt.


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## Ambers Echo (29 January 2020)

Having said all that, I will still do this with Deedee and it seems to be a gap in her education. But I won't expect miracles as a result.


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## milliepops (29 January 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			In the end it sounds like all these quick fixes turn out somewhat less simple than they appear on paper. Trainers say: Teach a horse to respect your space in an arena on a line and they will never barge as they will have learned 'respect', teach a horse to lead well and they will follow you anywhere,  install a chill switch and you can get a chilled horse anywhere.... Just not the case. It seems you need to teach what you want in the context you want it. No short cuts!
		
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I think you're right that there aren't any short cuts - if there were we'd all be using them as standard for every horse that was broken in  
I think all these kinds of techniques can work really well for some horses for some situations and the trick for all of us is to pick and choose according to our own horses and levels of experience. 
I think in general nothing can replace the time and repetition of basic correct "normal" training for the horse to learn your cues and then apply them in more and more places and situations. each time you are in a new place then to an extent the horse will probably need a minute reinforcement of what it has learned at home.  Eventually that becomes routine and fairly effortless.


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## oldie48 (29 January 2020)

Thanks, ihatework, that's understood. Mr B was quite an anxious horse


ycbm said:



			I assumed most people who train young horses take them to their first events to stand around and do not much.  My objective the first few times out is to be there with a calm horse. It doesn't go into the arena if it's not.

.
		
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I could take Mr B anywhere and he was calm. He'd stand nicely at the lorry, happily stand outside an arena and watch the world go by, what he didn't like was horses coming towards him particularly if he was between the fence and the oncoming horse. However, a stronger more effective rider than me could keep him focused and get him through the experience. It didn't mean he was any less anxious but it did stop him reacting.


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## maya2008 (29 January 2020)

My ‘quick fix’ is my old retired mare - unquestionably the herd leader; has raised almost all the others from youngsters. She has serious ‘words’ if they step out of line, most recently when one youngster bucked my son off and ran all the way home. No one was allowed to talk to her for days! Next time he came off, she ran off, thought better of it and came trotting back, head down, apologetic!  Every time one comes back she wants a report on how it went. Her ‘job’ is invaluable!


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## Michen (29 January 2020)

This is an interesting thread. Boggle, is without a doubt a "hot" horse. I'm sure plenty would feel he needs more basics instilled in him, and maybe they are right. My feeling is that you pick your battes with hot ones.

Will my horse stand still for a car to pass, stand simediately after a gallop for me to pick something up and get back on, tie up anywhere, stand on the lorry for indefinite periods of time, stand still hunting, stand at an event... etc etc. Yes absolutely.

Will he sometimes forget his manners, loose his little hot head and need a reminder (usually a bit of a slap on the arse to snap him out of his playpen mind? Yes sometimes.

I don't expect him to stand still and be perfect in every single situation every single time, but I can hand on heart say he's never let me down when I've really needed him to remember his training. I don't know what it is but I swear they just seem to "know" when it really matters. I genuinely feel like I have a good balance with Boggle most of the time between letting him be the hot head buzzy twit he is to an extent because it's his disposition and actually I'd hate to dull him down, but also knowing I can count on him to keep me safe. We have an understanding most of the time and usually we are on the same page. To me,  a horse you can pull up mid gallop, mid line and get off to retrieve something and get back on whilst the rest of the hunt field disappear and who will do it impeccably is a great example of manners when it counts. That said I've never managed to get him to stop dancing around when tacking up for hunting!

However he's beyond hot at the moment but that's my own fault for not being able to take him hunting and let him use his currently ridiculous level of fitness.. for the first time in 2 years I'm genuinely wondering whether he's going to deck me...


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## Ambers Echo (29 January 2020)

Michen said:



			I don't expect him to stand still and be perfect in every single situation every single time, but I can hand on heart say he's never let me down when I've really needed him to remember his training. I don't know what it is but I swear they just seem to "know" when it really matters. I genuinely feel like I have the perfect balance with Boggle most of the time between letting him be the hot head buzzy twit he is to an extent because it's his disposition and actually I'd hate to dull him down, but also knowing I can count on him to keep me safe.
		
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I love Boggle! And this is great. I used to say exactly the same about Amber.  I just really hope whatever was up with her that day was a  one  off and she is as you describe. Busy, keen, over enthusiastic but basically safe.


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## Michen (29 January 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			I love Boggle! And this is great. I used to say exactly the same about Amber.  I just really hope whatever was up with her that day was a  one  off and she is as you describe. Busy, keen, over enthusiastic but basically safe.
		
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I know, and I thought of you the other day when I was hacking. Actually I thought of you because usually Boggle's boggleness wouldn't plant a seed of doubt in my mind, but it was that little bit "extra" and I had obviously seen what had happened with Amber- and it made me question!

It's ironic that not once has Boggle made me feel like he was going to deck me hunting, even in the early days, but at the moment hacking when he switches on I'm sat thinking hmmmm... and breathe. I can't even remember the last time I felt that nervous of his potential explosiveness. It's taking lots of will power to just relax the reins and ignore him.


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## Ambers Echo (29 January 2020)

I've had Amber 3 years. I have come off her a few times but the Somerford behaviour was the only fall I'd blame on her and not me. She has pinged me off, she has spun when a pheasant flew up in her face which I think is fair enough, she once ducked out a XC fence I was not committed to. But never before has she launched herself into orbit for no clear reason and basically bucked me off. But they all seem a bit loopy just now.


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## tristar (29 January 2020)

i have one who when young was reluctant to be mounted, so  i leapt on and walked straight off, if i had insisted he stand still i am sure he would have gone up a both ends, so i let him express his right to object,now this is very rare i would  not do this  normally i would insist on a few moments of submission as i  mount then move off pretty sharp and build on the length of immobility before moving off.

he is now very good to mount but still retains the nucleus of that tendancy to dominate, i feel like he has met me half way and i dont expect perfection, its like we came to an arrangement, he is a very intelligent stallion of certain breeding , so i would expect him to never be anything other than who he is, bold and full of courage

when i go to ride i try to put out of mind everything else and think what horse will i be riding today and look out for the smallest signs of over exuberance for example and deal with it accordingly, ie if i did not ride the horse the day before i might lunge it before riding, if its a bit tense or looky looking i make sure its turned out before riding, to me prep is everything  and this is where i need to be before expecting a hot horse to stand still, cope with a stressful situation or learn something new.

coping is a learned strategy,    which translates its benefits of tolerance, to other situations and develops not just trust in the rider but the horses own self confidence,  develops its intelligence and ability to judge things itself  and the initiative to make the choice to ignore  a tractor for example, to tolerate a scary object, or tolerate stillness when it would rather move off, its like they learn to think rationally and control impulses 

i think taking horses to shows just to look around is wise i thought most people did  anyway


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## Lillian_paddington (29 January 2020)

I do think horse’s behaviour and ‘hotness’ can change. I think in some scenarios it just won’t, though. If you’ve got a horse that gets hot because it knows its job and wants to get on with it then I think it’s a case of managing it, because however much walking and chilling you do, once it catches sight of its ‘job’ then it knows what to do and wants to get on with it. 
But I mean, I’ve have my horse for a year and a half, and he’s had a complete personality swap. He was nervous, rushed a lot, and tended to refuse when pushed. He was also very, very strong. But now his default mode has changed from rushing to chilling. For him, he’s lot better when he knows his job. He's currently got the PC schoolmaster trophy, which made me laugh at first, but it does show how much he’s changed. And obviously part of that is down to training, and consistent work, but part of it is that I’m lucky enough to have a horse who is calmer and more consistent when he knows exactly what he’s doing.


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## JFTDWS (29 January 2020)

oldie48 said:



			He'd stand nicely at the lorry, happily stand outside an arena and watch the world go by, what he didn't like was horses coming towards him particularly if he was between the fence and the oncoming horse.
		
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When horses behaved like this at polocrosse and didn't like close contact, we often did training games where the horses all stood around on a long rein and people were sent to trot / canter around the horse in a circle (diameter dependent on the stationary horse's confidence / training level) while doing stick drills, until the horse learned to cope with its space being invaded.  There were variations on this that I saw while training - fences aren't relevant to grass poloX, but do crop up in arena matches (a lot of the established horses didn't like being penned to the fence, actually) and people were probably working on that in a similar way.  I did a bit with Skye who really wasn't happy with horses in her space at first - she got loads better, but ultimately I couldn't engineer enough opportunities to work on this, because I only rode with other horses once a month at training and it was depressingly slow going, especially as I couldn't expect to hold up every training session with my inexperienced mare when others were aiming for big competitions.  I know that the approach worked with many horses who went on to play successfully.  I'm sure it wouldn't work for all horses, though, nothing ever does!


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## ycbm (29 January 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			I've had Amber 3 years. I have come off her a few times but the Somerford behaviour was the only fall I'd blame on her and not me. She has pinged me off, she has spun when a pheasant flew up in her face which I think is fair enough, she once ducked out a XC fence I was not committed to. But never before has she launched herself into orbit for no clear reason and basically bucked me off. But they all seem a bit loopy just now.
		
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I'm reluctant to suggest this as it gets said so much, but if Amber gives her standin rider any problems, and this behaviour is uncharacteristic, it will be worth considering the possibility that her change of yards and routine has given her ulcers as well as Deedee. It does sound like a possible 'acid just splashed up my sore stomach'  reaction.

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## redapple (29 January 2020)

Michen said:



			I don't know what it is but I swear they just seem to "know" when it really matters. I genuinely feel like I have a good balance with Boggle most of the time between letting him be the hot head buzzy twit he is to an extent because it's his disposition and actually I'd hate to dull him down, but also knowing I can count on him to keep me safe.
		
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I think this is the difference between a hot but not overwhelmed/out of control horse and a horse that's losing the plot! I've got a mare that dances, swings about and can look and feel very hot. But if I say walk, we can walk. Oddly the same is true for her napping out (a work in progress) she doesn't nap when crossing roads. I'm not sure if that's because I ride in a way that makes it clear that that would be totally unacceptable or she senses that pratting about on an A-road Might not be a smart idea. She can be napping in the forest, cross the road to the next forest and start trying to nap again! 

I have however got on hot horses and jumped off because there's nothing there and I'm a total passenger. Can obviously be worked through but it's a different feeling.


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## Michen (29 January 2020)

redapple said:



			I think this is the difference between a hot but not overwhelmed/out of control horse and a horse that's losing the plot! I've got a mare that dances, swings about and can look and feel very hot. But if I say walk, we can walk. Oddly the same is true for her napping out (a work in progress) she doesn't nap when crossing roads. I'm not sure if that's because I ride in a way that makes it clear that that would be totally unacceptable or she senses that pratting about on an A-road Might not be a smart idea. She can be napping in the forest, cross the road to the next forest and start trying to nap again! 

I have however got on hot horses and jumped off because there's nothing there and I'm a total passenger. Can obviously be worked through but it's a different feeling.
		
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I think it depends on the rider as well though. I’ve had very experienced riders who were sharing boggle come back leading him on foot because they felt he was going to bolt with them! He’s never ever given me that feeling, explode yes. Bolt absolutely not. 

The wrong rider on Boggle could have awful consequences, by no means am I an experienced or decent jockey but I have grown with him and understand him and I like to think I know when to reprimand, when to go quiet and how to deal with his hotness to avoid any consequences. I think many riders would end up winding him up more. I truly believe you had to let hot horses express themselves to a certain extent (whilst remaining in clear boundaries). 

I do think sometimes we expect too much. I’m not perfect, sometimes when I’m nervous I ride like a pillock etc... forgetting any training I’ve ever had! Why would our horses be any different if they get excited or tense? I’m not advocating they should get away with poor behaviour but sometimes we are so fixated on ensuring they behave in the expected way all the time whatever the situation, rather than thinking ok- horse is reacting like x, how can I mitigate/soothe this situation. Asking a wound up or excited horse to do something it mentally just won’t be able to cope with is just starting an already lost battle.


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## redapple (29 January 2020)

Absolutely agree Michen, you have to adapt to the horse and the day. I don't always stick to plan if I don't feel it's going to work/is counterproductive. I think a lot of training hot horses is not getting to the point that you blow their minds.

Its also why I won't jump one XC yet as even though they've got the jump but I don't trust they have the mental capabilities to focus yet, not enough for me to feel happy tackling anything big and solid. Like somebody said above all the baby steps are not there and pushing/rushing it could be disastrous.


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## maya2008 (29 January 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			I've had Amber 3 years. I have come off her a few times but the Somerford behaviour was the only fall I'd blame on her and not me. She has pinged me off, she has spun when a pheasant flew up in her face which I think is fair enough, she once ducked out a XC fence I was not committed to. But never before has she launched herself into orbit for no clear reason and basically bucked me off. But they all seem a bit loopy just now.
		
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In 3 years you would have experienced this behaviour before if she was prone to it. Ulcers/a physical issue. You have a sudden change in behaviour at a venue you have been to before, on an amount of turnout she has been on before...

Yes they are all unable to play properly in the field at the moment  and a bit more keen to ‘go’ under saddle, but they retain their basic temperaments - my insecure but sweet one is still himself, just a bit quicker; his half sister is her usual bossy self, just more keen to canter; the Shetland is...trying to run home all the time (normal for her at this time of year) and my sweet speedy mare looks after my kids like they are made from glass no matter how much she wants to run (and would seriously ask to with me on board!). At this time of year my TB used to go into orbit regularly but with no malice or intent to lose her human- that was her, happened every year...! If Amber is behaving out of character, then something is wrong.


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## Ambers Echo (30 January 2020)

I have been wondering ulcers but my RI who saw it said it looked like sheer exuberance. Also seen a physio since then who said she looks in the best condition  she ever seen her. Both say she just looks 'too well'. No discomfort round abdomen area. But I am aware it's a possibility and if this sort  behaviour persists, I'll check it out. She's been fine ridden since then at home and I jumped her the day before the clinic at home and she was amazing. I'd expect a physical issue to be seen in familiar as well as new/exciting venues. Plus she got me off twice in the warm up: the first canter and the first line of warm up jumps. But she was asking to canter before she was cued for canter. It was more an explosion into canter having tried to break to canter several times already rather than protesting against a canter transition because canter hurts. She was on one from the minute I sat on her. The previous day she had been worked hard including jumping with no reaction. Deedee was much more classic- ok at first, deteriorating as the session progressed. Reliably bucking with certain moves, worse on right rein etc. My instinct is that it's not ulcers. But I will definitely bear it in mind as a possibility.


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## milliepops (30 January 2020)

While I'd always give a horse the benefit of the doubt, I'm not sure that I would rush to the vet after a one-off incident unless there were other warning signs.

IIRC the person that had ridden her for AE since had an uneventful time?


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## Ambers Echo (30 January 2020)

Cross posted I think MP But yes, so far it's a one off.


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## Lyle (1 February 2020)

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but will eventually.

So, just jumping in here with 'Hot' horses and the level of groundwork they can achieve. My short story is I purchased a 3yo Welsh D who was pretty wild, minimally handled and very flighty/sensitive. Not a mean bone, but always on the looking for things to react to. 
I pretty quickly realised I was ill-equipped in the handling department, especially considering I planned on backing him myself.
I researched a lot and found Clinton Anderson's methods simple, adaptable (to a degree, meaning they can be broken down into smaller steps depending on the horse) and actually made sense. Simple ethos, gain respect and trust from the ground by being able to control his feet in all direction and speeds. 

Long story short is, within a short time (well, quite a bit of time, but the horse has sat in the paddock most of the year while I worked) he's gone from flighty, reactive, non-thinking to being able to being able to think through situations much more easily. The combination of both desensitising and sensitising (active, i.e. lunging) exercises has allowed him to thrive, being sensitive in nature but having learnt to trust me and my tools through the desensitising work, he thinks through an exercise and responds beautifully. I've started the backing process and it has gone text book so far, including mounting. 

The theory with this sort of solid groundwork is, you create a horse who is trustful and confident, who is able to think rather than react. This foundation on the ground then translates to undersaddle. My Welsh is a 'hot', 'sensitive' type who I expect will always be an exhillerating type ride, but that's not a license for him to act out and spook and react to everything he comes across!


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## maya2008 (1 February 2020)

Some horses are just ‘hot’ though. My speedy mare has always been bombproof; she will trot round the arena and look after my 7yo son, on the bit and working sweetly. I can also lead off her and she will help me corral wayward children and ponies and teach youngsters the ropes.

But.... take her out away from the children (horse and human!) and she will be dancing sideways and running like the wind if the ground is good enough and I let her. She knows now when she can exhibit that behaviour (I love a good gallop and a whizzy speedy hack!) and when she cannot, but that has not changed who she is!  And I wouldn’t change her either - she is perfect!


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