# PTS problem



## Mooseontheloose (22 March 2015)

Has anyone experienced a problem with a horse being euthanazed by injection, when it hasn't worked?


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## PorkChop (22 March 2015)

Not one of my own - because I would always use the hunt to pts - but I have witnessed and heard of several instances when the horse has been given an injection and it has got back up unfortunately - but I couldn't tell you statistically the percentage of injections that go wrong so to speak.


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## Mooseontheloose (22 March 2015)

I agree, I'd always use our local huntsman but a friend has had a disastrous day, won't go into details, but I'm so often told by people that they'd never dream of having a horse shot, because it is cruel, they'd always have them put to sleep by injection because it's more humane. Not sure after today I'd have any patience with them.


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## Nudibranch (22 March 2015)

Yes, my own and I didn't want her injected but the vet insisted. I have always had them shot before (and since). If you search on here you will find posts including my own. I'm not going to write it all again as I have done so several times but after what I saw I will never allow it again.


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## webble (22 March 2015)

Not mine but a friends got back up after being injected and the vet had to run to her van for more drugs


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## _HP_ (22 March 2015)

I'd say it's really awful if something went wrong but that it can and does go wrong occasionally using both methods.
A couple years ago my pony died naturally of probable liver failire while I was waiting for the vet...it wasn't quick ((40 minutes) Bank holiday)and was incredibly stressful for the pony and myself and I would take anything over that.
I've seen a pony shot and scramble back up to a sitting position before being shot again. I've not seen an injection go wrong so far.
I am having to have 2 ponies pts soon and will choose injection for them


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## Goldenstar (22 March 2015)

Yes I have ,I really don't like having them injected at all now .


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## ILuvCowparsely (22 March 2015)

Mooseontheloose said:



			Has anyone experienced a problem with a horse being euthanazed by injection, when it hasn't worked?
		
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Nope  _ I always use injection and everyone of mine and friends have gone peacefully asleep.  It is the only was I would use no other for personal reasons

 the gun however I have seen a messy  and saw it go wrong before.  I do not choose this option for this reason and other's


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## touchstone (22 March 2015)

I'm another that's witnessed a shooting go wrong,  I think the shooting done incorrectly is more traumatic for all concerned.


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## orbvalley (22 March 2015)

OMG!! No knowledge of either method but how awful for both.


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## Magnetic Sparrow (22 March 2015)

The only time I've had a horse put down by injection it was very quick and effective. However I have known of two others where the first dose was not enough. One was a very unfortunate case of a young horse with a badly broken leg in the middle of a field, so when the vet went back to the car to get more drugs it took minutes before he returned.

I prefer mine to be shot, although I have also known the gun fail to fire. The difference is that it was only me who suffered, the horse was simply mystified but not distressed.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (22 March 2015)

How awful! I don't have any experience with PTS, but when the time comes we will choose to inject ours.


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## Jim bob (22 March 2015)

I know of a horse who was old and the vet injected them. The girl who was holding the horse said the mare fought all the way and it was like she didn't want to die then.


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## Moomin1 (23 March 2015)

There is always a risk that the injection won't work quite as well as you would hope.  Just as unfortunately shooting can occasionally go wrong too.  No method is perfect by any means.  I know from experience.


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## Colouredwelsh (23 March 2015)

I've seen the injection not work. I had a racehorse strike into its tendon at Newcastle and because the crowd are so close to the vets boxes they will not shoot there so they injected but it took 3 attempts as horse was so high on adrenalin. It was quite awful. 

shooting is quick and I'm fortunate it's my friend who does it so that maybe eases the situation slightly.


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## Joyous70 (23 March 2015)

I chose the injection for my old boy January last year, he has a fear of men, and I was concerned if i rang the company to come out to shoot him it might have been a man so thought the injection was the kindest way.  He kept turning his head as if trying to pop the needle out of his neck and the blood was pumping out, when the injection was finally administered it did seem to take quite a while for him to go down, and when he did he tried to get up again, the vet and I had to kneel on his neck to keep him down, although he was peaceful and i think it was a last instinct to try and remain standing, i would never choose an injection again, as this sight has remained with me since, although the vet did say afterwards that his circulation was incredibly poor, which in my opinion is why it seemed to take quite a while for him to pass.


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## Casey76 (23 March 2015)

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "didn't work"

Lethal injection isn't instantaneous due to the size of the horse, and it takes time for the drugs to be circulated and reach the heart.  There is almost always a nervous reaction after the heart stops, and it can range from lips quivering to deep "breaths" to the horse almost sitting up/rolling over.  It doesn't mean to say that the injection hasn't worked, it is just the last of the nerves firing and the animal isn't aware of anything at this point (though it can be extremely distressing for the owner/handler and vet.

My own boy had to be injected into the belly vein behind the elbow after both his jugulars had collapsed (he was in extremis when the vet came). As that vein is much smaller than the juglars, the drugs have to be given more slowly, and it took a long time for Pinto to die, despite him being so ill.


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## applecart14 (23 March 2015)

Mooseontheloose said:



			Has anyone experienced a problem with a horse being euthanazed by injection, when it hasn't worked?
		
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I think in the 'olden days' the drugs were different and there were more problems with working out the dosages, also if horses were on other drugs at the time they were PTS this could cause additional problems.  But these days the drugs they use are stronger, have had more research into them, and I think any complications are much rarer.

My vets always said at the end of the day they are technically dead before they hit the floor, whether you choose to shoot or inject.


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## applecart14 (23 March 2015)

Casey76 said:



			I suppose it depends on what you mean by "didn't work"

Lethal injection isn't instantaneous due to the size of the horse, and it takes time for the drugs to be circulated and reach the heart.  There is almost always a nervous reaction after the heart stops, and it can range from lips quivering to deep "breaths" to the horse almost sitting up/rolling over.  It doesn't mean to say that the injection hasn't worked, it is just the last of the nerves firing and the animal isn't aware of anything at this point (though it can be extremely distressing for the owner/handler and vet..
		
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These effects are called agonal gasping.  I had a horse put down with lethal injection -I was not present as the horse had wobblers and it was considered too dangerous as he was totally uncoordinated in his movements although I was in the waiting room at the hospital whilst it was carried out. I elected to see his body after he was put down but was not warned about any reflex movements or sounds and I found the whole experience terribly distressing to the point that it plunged me into a depression and took me a long time to get over his death. I was assured that the animal was dead but it was horrific seeing his tummy and flank flickering and hear him grunting. The first grunt coincided with my hand touching his neck as I crouched down to stroke him and this totally freaked me out as I believed he knew I was there and he was trying to communicate with me. In the end I wrote to Horse & Rider magazine and they did a massive three page reply to me about this and explained that this grunting is called agonal gasping and is nothing to do with 'agony' in the sense we know it. It is merely a reflex action of the body shutting down and the air releasing from the lungs and vocal cords. The horse is unconscious and out of pain and totally unaware of what has happened to it.  Sometimes the horse will make paddling movements with its legs.

Apparently this can take place up to ten minutes after death.  I would never ever see my horse again so soon after death, I would wait for a while until any danger of agonal reflexes had stopped.

Apparently it can (in some circumstances) take up to 30 seconds for a horse to sink to the floor when injected, and can take up to two minutes for its heart to stop beating.

I agree with Casey 76 and think people have got mixed up with agonal gasping and have thought that the horse was resisting euthanasia or somehow it wasn't working properly.

Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...a-riot-(Euthanasia)/page2#5ty6LReq7yvwvuvY.99


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## Mooseontheloose (23 March 2015)

I don't want to go into details of what happened, except to say that it was not last gasping, threshing or twitching, it really didn't work and ended up with the animal having to be disposed of with a humane killer.


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## fburton (23 March 2015)

Partly reiterating what applecart14 wrote... There may be an issue with how injections are perceived because two completely different scenarios are liable to get lumped together as one. In the first scenario, the injection works as it should - a massive overdose of fresh and fully effective drug goes into the vein, reaches the brain and causes total loss of consciousness so that 'physiological dying' (in practice, the heart ceasing to beat) can take its course with the horse already incapable of suffering - but there are sometimes accompanying involuntary reactions including gasping and 'paddling' of the legs that are unpleasant to see. It can _look_ like the horse is fighting the anaesthetic, but this isn't what is happening. Then there is a second scenario in which something goes wrong - the drug is off, the dose is wrong, the needle or (preferably) catheter isn't in the vein, the horse's pulse is so poor (e.g. due to heart failure) that it takes much longer than normal for the drug to reach the brain. This second outcome is _much_ rarer, just as mistakes in shooting are also very rare. And yet there are potentially enough similarities in the reporting of these two cases that people may be forgiven for mistaking the first for the second. That's why it is important for the vet to explain what may happen during euthanasia and what it means, so that owners are prepared and hopefully reassured. Of course, this does not mean that people who are unfortunate enough to have witnessed the second, awful scenario are unaware of the difference - that is definitely not what I'm saying.


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## applecart14 (23 March 2015)

fburton said:



			Partly reiterating what applecart14 wrote... There may be an issue with how injections are perceived because two completely different scenarios are liable to get lumped together as one. In the first scenario, the injection works as it should - a massive overdose of fresh and fully effective drug goes into the vein, reaches the brain and causes total loss of consciousness so that 'physiological dying' (in practice, the heart ceasing to beat) can take its course with the horse already incapable of suffering - but there are sometimes accompanying involuntary reactions including gasping and 'paddling' of the legs that are unpleasant to see. It can _look_ like the horse is fighting the anaesthetic, but this isn't what is happening. Then there is a second scenario in which something goes wrong - the drug is off, the dose is wrong, the needle or (preferably) catheter isn't in the vein, the horse's pulse is so poor (e.g. due to heart failure) that it takes much longer than normal for the drug to reach the brain. This second outcome is _much_ rarer, just as mistakes in shooting are also very rare. And yet there are potentially enough similarities in the reporting of these two cases that people may be forgiven for mistaking the first for the second. That's why it is important for the vet to explain what may happen during euthanasia and what it means, so that owners are prepared and hopefully reassured. Of course, this does not mean that people who are unfortunate enough to have witnessed the second, awful scenario are unaware of the difference - that is definitely not what I'm saying.
		
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Think that explains it much better than me.  Can I ask you fburton (as you sound like you are a vet/vet nurse) what would you want for your horse if it was say 
a) a road traffic accident with the adrenalin factor being present,  for example a horse in 'an agitated state of being'
b) a horse who illness/injuries meant it has to be pts and it was 'calm in its stable' type of situation, 
c) horse in chronic heart failure?

I would say that example A would differ from example B and C from B and therefore a different method may be employed for each (or am I wrong to assume that).  Having had a horse shot twice and then lied to by my vet about the reason it was shot twice (he missed the first time but told me it was standard practice to shoot large horses of 16.3hh twice)  I would be really reluctant for my present horse to be shot.  Plus if I am being absolutely honest I could not see myself personally there at the end if it had to be shot whereas I could if it had to be pts with injection but then that is ignorance on my part maybe.

I am just curious to know from a professional (which I assume you are). Thanks for your help x


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## orbvalley (23 March 2015)

applecart14 said:



			Having had a horse shot twice and then lied to by my vet about the reason it was shot twice (he missed the first time but told me it was standard practice to shoot large horses of 16.3hh twice)  I would be really reluctant for my present horse to be shot.   x
		
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You poor poor thing. Thats an absolutely shocking lie to be told and at such an emotional time when you're relying on a professional being professional!!


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## applecart14 (23 March 2015)

orbvalley said:



			You poor poor thing. Thats an absolutely shocking lie to be told and at such an emotional time when you're relying on a professional being professional!!
		
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I had a sneaking suspicion at the time that I was being lied to.  I was in the vicinity and had rounded the corner away from eye line of the horse and heard the shots, one and then another fifteen to twenty seconds maybe a bit longer after the first.  Roll on 14 years later I went to a livery yard to enquire about moving my present horse from the one I'd been at for many years and the woman running the yard was a livery who had been at the first yard whilst I'd been there with the horse that was shot.  We got talking about the old times and then she said "nasty business that was about your Mikki" and I said "Elaine I know what you're going to say, you are about to confirm what I think I have already known all these years but not believed to be true" and sure enough she said that the vet had missed and had had to shoot my lovely young horse twice.  I can remember after Mikki was shot (had compound fracture of tibia) that the YO who had been holding the horse for the vet very shakily passed me on the yard and said he had to go into the house for a stiff brandy. At the time I thought, bless him he is shocked having a horse pts.  Now I know the real reason why and not entirely surprised he was in great need of that brandy.

It was the same vets practice  that mis diagnosed my previous horse with EHV when he had wobblers and the woman vet clapped her hands in glee when she told me she was excited that she'd be the first vet to diagnose EHV in the midlands and could write her thesis about it.  All in all not a very honourable veterinary practice, nor very ethical or with any empathy!  

Glad to say I have another vets and have had them for last 11 years.

Sorry to hijack thread OP x


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## orbvalley (23 March 2015)

This whole thread is just so shocking to me.
I thank you all for you sharing as I have no experience of PTS but sure enough one day it will be my turn. At least I'll have an idea of what could happen in the worst scenario's. 
My deepest sympathies go out to you all.


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## springtime1331 (23 March 2015)

Personally, I've only had one horse PTS with injection - he was young but dying rapidly so the drugs just pushed him over the edge. In the event of an accident, where the horse was young and healthy I would shoot - especially if their adrenaline was up. I know our vets don't like to use a gun though. I guess the other option is heavy sedation first then the lethal injection - at least the horse is in a calmer state before PTS


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## Pearlsasinger (23 March 2015)

springtime1331 said:



			Personally, I've only had one horse PTS with injection - he was young but dying rapidly so the drugs just pushed him over the edge. In the event of an accident, where the horse was young and healthy I would shoot - especially if their adrenaline was up. I know our vets don't like to use a gun though. I guess the other option is heavy sedation first then the lethal injection - at least the horse is in a calmer state before PTS
		
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I would never ask a vet to shoot a horse.  They don't have enough practice to be anywhere near as good as the Hunt or knackerman, who are the people that I always get out.  I have had 2 horses pts by injection (years apart, different vets) and, although nothing actually went wrong, I do not intend to have any more injected.


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## ILuvCowparsely (23 March 2015)

Firstly. sorry to all those who had bad experiences with Injection/gun

 Back in the 80's  I saw many a horse pts by the gun as it was the only option at this time, the first time I heard of an injection was a program called *IT'S A VET'S LIFE*   many are too young here to remember it, well I saw the vet put down a grey pony who just dropped and went to sleep.  This gave me the incite to what would happen if I ever had my own horse which I did 4 years later.   My first mare did fight a bit but  I look at it as she went down a fighter to the end.  She was down on the ground anyway and could not get up ( don't know what happened )

The experiences I had with the gun were messy, and like applecart said one was shot twice as the first one went out near his ear ( wont say what append as it was gross. )


  I want my animals by injection as to me they have injections yearly anyway + any extra sedative ones.  My choice that I don't want to hear or see the after math of my beloved horses left on the ground.  With the injection there was no aftermath so I was there to the end in all three cases


It is a very touchy subject as some want ashes some want recycling - there will always be the odd one on  either choice that does not go according to plan.


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## EstherYoung (24 March 2015)

I've known both 'go wrong' too. Luckily not with mine. We had a pretty traumatic couple of years where we lost four oldies, and, although I have no issues with either method, we had them all injected for the sole reason that a) it meant the vet they were familiar with could do it and b) they were being done in sight of their field mates so we needed it to be very quiet. One of them in particular reacted so suddenly to the injection that it was like he'd been shot - that did surprise me a bit but not in a bad way, as it was very quick and immediate. The others were more as you would expect the injection to go.

All any of us can hope for is an experienced practitioner and to be guided by them.


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## Wishful (24 March 2015)

Most vets (unless ex army or similar) will be massively more familiar with injection than with shooting. 

Would add that a horse that is down or ataxic is less likely to be a good candidate for the gun method the right bit of the brain needs to line up to work. 

Circulatory compromise or toxaemia may make the injection more difficult but usually even if there are some lingering reactions the horse is at least heavily anaestetised.  Sensible vets will listen to the heart stop and then double check shortly after - it has been known to restart.  

Racing decisions are often inflenced by practical and safety considerations (another faller at same fence, location of crowd/public road too close).

It's not easy at the best of times and neither option is perfect - generally though I'd get the vet to use the method they're most comfortable with in the circumstances. *


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## applecart14 (24 March 2015)

Wishful said:



			Sensible vets will listen to the heart stop and then double check shortly after - it has been known to restart.  

 *
		
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If and when I need to make that final decision I will bear what you have said in mind about this.  Thank you.


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## Mooseontheloose (24 March 2015)

Thank you for your replies. I have only once had a horse put down by injection but he was already down and nearly gone and it was very quick. Luckily our knackerman is a horseman and sensitive to owner's situation and the horses I have had to have put down have been totally calm and relaxed at the end, and it's been fine. There is always, of course, some blood and so on, but if you're ready with some thing to cover it up with quickly it needn't be distressing.
The one thing that this does impress upon me and it is some thing that many horseowners won't face, is that it will happen to most of us if we keep horses long enough. Firstly make the decision before it becomes an emergency if at all possible, even if the horse looks perky and happy, it's better to go like that than allow it to become sick and traumatised. 
Secondly, have your emergency plan so you know what to do, who to call, what you would want done with the body etc. When you're in a shocked or upset state it is all much more difficult.
Morbid subject but one we should be much more prepared for and open about.
Let's hope we all have a  long time with our animals before having to face it, but when we do we know what to do.


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## fburton (24 March 2015)

applecart14 said:



			Think that explains it much better than me.  Can I ask you fburton (as you sound like you are a vet/vet nurse) what would you want for your horse if it was say 
a) a road traffic accident with the adrenalin factor being present,  for example a horse in 'an agitated state of being'
b) a horse who illness/injuries meant it has to be pts and it was 'calm in its stable' type of situation, 
c) horse in chronic heart failure?
		
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I am not a vet, but have worked with, taught and supervised vets academically. My expertise relevant to this topic is in cardiac, and to a lesser extent respiratory, physiology. I've also had hands-on experience with anaesthesia and euthanasia procedures.

To answer your question, knowing what I know and have experience of, my _personal_ preference is for injection. However, there may be circumstances where shooting is preferable, and I certainly wouldn't criticize anyone for choosing shooting over injection if there were issues around e.g. carcase disposal.

If the horse was agitated and behaving dangerously, I would make every effort to bring that under control before attempting euthanasia by either method. Otherwise, I don't think 'adrenaline' is really a factor to consider, because it won't stop the horse losing consciousness after injection. The possibility of an animal 'fighting' the anaesthetic is sometimes raised, but I don't see how that can apply with an anaesthetic overdose by injection, and none of the vets I have asked about this has been able to confirm this is a possibility or said how it might occur - the barbiturate is going to reach the brain and cause loss of consciousness whatever happens, as long as enough drug is in the blood stream and the heart is still working (and if the heart stopped, consciousness would be lost anyway due to brain hypoxia). Horses fighting/abreacting to _sedation_ is an entirely different matter, of course.

In a road traffic accident, there may be a safety issue with shooting due to proximity to members of the public, as Wishful mentioned.

Although heart failure may affect the time taken for an overdose of anaesthetic to work (or it may not, depending on the individual), I can't see why it would be a reason to prefer shooting over injection.

I hope that answers your questions, applecart14. 

OP - thank you for raising the issue in the first place and for your very useful comments about planning in advance for both the inevitable and the unexpected.


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## orbvalley (24 March 2015)

I have no medical nor veterinary/nursing skills neither do I have experience of PTS, however if it is of any use to anybody whatsoever I was (at 18 years old) overdosed in a uk hospital with anaesthetic "by accident" ( the "nurse" apparently gave me 3 times the necessary dose) during what was supposedly a regular simple op. I was knocked out for 3 days instead of 20mins. I had and have no memory of this, felt no pain and have no memory of family visits etc etc. My point being, if my horse (or any other pet) was pts via injection, any movement afterward I would accept as being "mechanical" rather than "resistance" or "a fight for life". Providing the dose was correct in the first place, and believe me I always make sure!! I was apparently drifting in and out of consciousness and speaking, all be it randomly, but have no recollection of it. 
Anybody who has had personal experience of PTS and has different knowledge to me of course I would bow to their superior and 1st hand knowledge.
This thread has made me think about our 2 though and I think I would personally choose an injection but be prepared for nerve responses etc to continue for some time after.


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## Peregrine Falcon (24 March 2015)

We had to have an elderly mare PTS last week.  We called the hunt who were professional, prompt and efficient.  They took over so no-one had to witness the final end.  

I think someone has mentionned before that they would prefer their horse to smell horse/dog at the end rather than a vet!  I have to be honest and say that this made me think twice about how I would have my pony PTS.  I am needle phobic and he's not very good with them either.  

It is important that you have numbers to hand as searching for them at "crunch" time is stressful.


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## janietee_5 (24 March 2015)

I had my old (40 years old) pony pts last October.  We took him down to the vets and he was sedated then had the final injection.  We stayed whilst he was sedated and it was very peaceful.  The vet was brilliant and did not hurry us.  A friend and fellow livery is a vet nurse at the same vets and stayed with him whilst the final injection was given but I could not stay.  She told me it was really calm and he lay down as if to roll.  No drama and no suffering.  I have 2 others I own and one oldie on loan and would not hesitate to have them pts by injection when their time comes. Not sure if we were just lucky or the vet was really skilled.  Ben at Oakham Vets if anyone wants a recommendation.  Every one at the vets from the time I went to arrange it to the actual pts were great.


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## Doris68 (24 March 2015)

As some of you may remember, I had my old lady PTS last Wednesday.  She was already down and a little bit "out of it".  My choice had always been injection and when the vet arrived, it was (for me) a decision that had already been made (thank you my lovely lady).  The vet was good and sympathetic.  However, despite my lovely friend and neighbour being there to hold me up, I hadn't realised about the "breaths" that she would take after she'd gone...I wish someone had told me that this would happen.  I've had a dreadful few days, but the fact that my dear lady passed away in a dignified manner will comfort me.  It's down to individual choice of course.


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## applecart14 (25 March 2015)

fburton said:



			OP - thank you for raising the issue in the first place and for your very useful comments about planning in advance for both the inevitable and the unexpected.
		
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Couldn't agree more.  Its  a shame more of us don't discuss this with our livery friends and yard owners, I think planning in advance makes life a lot easier, plus at the time (in an emergency for example) its difficult enough to deal with the situation without trying to put your opinion across.

I am surprised whenever I have raised this subject with people their initial response.  I think I am deemed as a bit of a 'grim reaper'!  Just common sense.  In the same way I don't want my horses bed touched afterwards, that is for me to do, and for me, bizarre as it sounds part of the long and painful healing process.

Thanks for answering my questions.  I have no doubt what I want for my horse when the time comes, and that will be injection. Having had our dog pts last March with a little snort at the end (typical of her as she has allergic rhinitis) it was so very peaceful and calm.


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## applecart14 (25 March 2015)

Doris68 said:



			However, despite my lovely friend and neighbour being there to hold me up, I hadn't realised about the "breaths" that she would take after she'd gone...I wish someone had told me that this would happen.  I've had a dreadful few days, but the fact that my dear lady passed away in a dignified manner will comfort me.  It's down to individual choice of course.
		
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I know I really don't understand why this is not mentioned.  As I stated in my previous post, it was really upsetting and it frightened me, and my last memories of my beloved horse was being frightened thinking he hadn't gone. I actually shouted at the poor vet, "you told me he was dead" and my dad trying to explain to me that this was the case and it was just his reactions after.  Not everyone can be expected to 'know' this. Take heed any vets reading this forum. Please remember we do not know these things.


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## ILuvCowparsely (25 March 2015)

applecart14 said:



			I know I really don't understand why this is not mentioned.  As I stated in my previous post, it was really upsetting and it frightened me, and my last memories of my beloved horse was being frightened thinking he hadn't gone. I actually shouted at the poor vet, "you told me he was dead" and my dad trying to explain to me that this was the case and it was just his reactions after.  Not everyone can be expected to 'know' this. Take heed any vets reading this forum. Please remember we do not know these things.
		
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When my mare of a lifetime dropped down, I was actually cuddling her so I dropped with her, I was so busy crying I was not paying attention to her breaths etc, just the vet said *she has gone*  any twitching so breaths were very quiet and  peaceful.

 I am going to go visit a crematorium who does horses as they invite you to see the premises and even be there while done (not for me this bit).  So I am  have happy with where she is being taken  or he will be taken as I am NOT going to let Grafton get their hands on any more horses of mine after the way they treated me.

 This is who is recommended by the APPCC  http://www.appcc.org.uk/find.htm 

 This is the guy who I spoke to >  http://www.equineandpetservices.co.uk/home.html

 Was lovely on phone, sympathetic to me and my questions - reassured me of the proceedings, invited us up there to view.

Promised categorically that horses are collected individually and transported to the crematorium UNLESS  two friends want their horses transported  together.

 NOT like *G* who chucked my poor livery pony onto top of a shire already in there.

  They deserve respect  right to the end. 


 I did a lot of home work after my last terrible experience, some of which cannot be repeated on a public forum.


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## applecart14 (25 March 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			When my mare of a lifetime dropped down, I was actually cuddling her so I dropped with her, I was so busy crying I was not paying attention to her breaths etc, just the vet said *she has gone*  any twitching so breaths were very quiet and  peaceful.

 I am going to go visit a crematorium who does horses as they invite you to see the premises and even be there while done (not for me this bit).  So I am  have happy with where she is being taken  or he will be taken as I am NOT going to let Grafton get their hands on any more horses of mine after the way they treated me.

 This is who is recommended by the APPCC  http://www.appcc.org.uk/find.htm 

 This is the guy who I spoke to >  http://www.equineandpetservices.co.uk/home.html

 Was lovely on phone, sympathetic to me and my questions - reassured me of the proceedings, invited us up there to view.

Promised categorically that horses are collected individually and transported to the crematorium UNLESS  two friends want their horses transported  together.

 NOT like *G* who chucked my poor livery pony onto top of a shire already in there.

  They deserve respect  right to the end. 


 I did a lot of home work after my last terrible experience, some of which cannot be repeated on a public forum.
		
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I know cremation isn't for everyone but I want my horse cremated.  I don't mind if he's collected with other horses/fallen stock nor cremated with others. As long as he is cremated and doesn't end up in a can of tinned dog food or something similar not that he should as he's been on bute.

It would be interesting to see the crematorium although I have seen a horse one on telly once on a documentary.

Gosh HGA-12 I am not being disrespectful for the way your horse died or what happened at the time but I thought that the vet pulled you away/grabbed the leadrope before it went down in case they fell on you or at least that's what I've been led to believe.  Surprised to hear that your vet allowed you to cuddle your horse as she went down.  It was 'nice' for your mare though to have you there at the end.


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## Mooseontheloose (25 March 2015)

While we're on this subject, which I know is morbid, but quite rightly being sensibly discussed - I own two older ponies who are outgrown and loaned to family homes. I have written formally to both loaners stating that if anything should happen they are not to wait until they have contacted me, but in the event of a serious colic or injury they have my permission to euthanaze the pony. I would hate to think of someone trying to contact me when we have useless phone connectivity or I may be in a meeting or something similar. I would not want an old pony subjected to colic surgery or expect a loaner to go to that expense.
Secondly I have a letter lodged with my vet also stating the same thing. I am abroad on occasions for work, and I trust my vet to make the right decision. 
I know some people will be shocked that I wouldn't do colic surgery, and I know that it has been successful in many cases, but I would not want it in an older animal. 
Of course, this is very much a personal wish, and I respect that others would do differently.


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## ILuvCowparsely (25 March 2015)

applecart14 said:



			I know cremation isn't for everyone but I want my horse cremated.  I don't mind if he's collected with other horses/fallen stock nor cremated with others. As long as he is cremated and doesn't end up in a can of tinned dog food or something similar not that he should as he's been on bute.

It would be interesting to see the crematorium although I have seen a horse one on telly once on a documentary.

Gosh HGA-12 I am not being disrespectful for the way your horse died or what happened at the time but I thought that the vet pulled you away/grabbed the leadrope before it went down in case they fell on you or at least that's what I've been led to believe.  Surprised to hear that your vet allowed you to cuddle your horse as she went down.  It was 'nice' for your mare though to have you there at the end.
		
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She did let me cuddle her and with all two before, I have never been pulled away from them ever.  She knew this mare was  gentle giant and I can't remember everything but I think we encourage her to lie on her left side which is the side I was on and not once was i in danger from her as I stepped back still with arms on her while she dropped. 

 The vet made no effort to intervene and if she had would have heard my response *Nothing* was going to tear me away from her NOTHING.  Even typing this has caused lump in throat, as I have to relive this here, hubby knew I wanted to be there till she had gone and 10 mins after to allow me to smell her and comfort me  before I walked away and turned my back on my mare of a life time.  The only thing I would have changed in this horrid  2012 cannot be mentioned on a public forum.

The way she went with me holding her I would do again with her son or any other, but I like you I don't want my beloved horses ending up as *dog c*ap* on the sidewalk


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## Switchthehorse (25 March 2015)

Surely a lot of it is down to the quality of person who is doing the deed, whether it is injection or gun?

My 3yo filly was pts via injection, she was heavily sedated first and despite always being a real fighter it was quick, peaceful and relatively painless.  But I 100% trusted my vet to do a good job, would use the correct amounts etc.

There are always going to be unfortunate incidents but if you use qualified, compassionate people, who are prepared for all eventualities, the risk is minimised and the experience is hopefully the least traumatic that it needs to be.


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## applecart14 (25 March 2015)

Mooseontheloose said:



			I know some people will be shocked that I wouldn't do colic surgery, and I know that it has been successful in many cases, but I would not want it in an older animal. 
Of course, this is very much a personal wish, and I respect that others would do differently.
		
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I'm not shocked at all mooseontheloose, I would not consider this for my horse and often wonder if I will be left with this decision as he has been so colicky over the years.  I really hope any decision I had to make about PTS would be as there is no other choice and with colic surgery of course there is always a choice.  But I wouldn't want it for him - not because of the anaethetic, not for the operation either  but for the recovery after.

My boy couldn't cope with the enforced box rest as he has arthritis and it would be detrimental for him to have any extended period of box rest, even one day is hard on him to be honest.


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## Mooseontheloose (25 March 2015)

Applecart, the same reasons. Over the last twenty years I've taken three, one mine and two liveries to equine hospital, all had colic surgery, and I didn't bring one home. I know we were unlucky, and live a  long way away from the facility, which doesn't help. However, I'm not sure I didn't just prolong the distress, stress and suffering. (Horse and human)
A young, fit horse is one thing, but I think our old stagers deserve better than what we were able to provide and that is a peaceful end at home. More than a lot of humans have.


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## Rivendell (25 March 2015)

This is a topic I have thought about a few times.  I luckily have never seen either method "fail" so am coming in with an unbiased view.  

I will almost definitely get my horses euthanised with the injection and it will allow me to be there patting them until the end.  I would hate to walk away from them and leave them with a stranger to be killed.  I don't know if it makes any difference to them and it is probably more for my own needs, but I would like to provide them with as much comfort as possible.


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## Doris68 (25 March 2015)

Applecart - you've made so many valid points.  I quite agree that, despite "thinking" we know what's going to happen when our horse is euthanised, we don't really know, well at least not the fine detail.  I made a choice to have my horse cremated and the vet organised this immediately and told me X would arrive at around 11.00 am.  We retreated to the kitchen and a friend said he would deal with it to avoid us having to.  Our friend went in to the yard to find that my mare had already been taken, her rugs removed and left on the manege fence.  The area had been levelled and there was not a trace of her removal.  We were spared any further pain and are extremely grateful to the company that took her away.  It would be good if Vet practices could produce a leaflet, giving an outline of what may/may not happen when your beloved horse is euthanised.  A good thread - thank you.


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## Boulty (25 March 2015)

Nope, mine went absolutely textbook. He was a naturally calm, sensible horse who was good with vets though so didn't try to fight it. (and vet was very experienced) I'd pick the same again for current pony (although probably with VERY heavy sedation as he's a worrier) who is rather headshy at times and prone to head-tossing when worried so perhaps would be a liability to do any other way anyway


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## ew1801 (26 March 2015)

I have always had mine put to sleep via injection. But after one quite traumatic experience I now insist on them being sedated before hand. My vet also takes the rope of me and pushes me behind him but he does wait right until the last second before they go down.


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## 3OldPonies (30 March 2015)

Mooseontheloose said:



			The one thing that this does impress upon me and it is some thing that many horseowners won't face, is that it will happen to most of us if we keep horses long enough. Firstly make the decision before it becomes an emergency if at all possible, even if the horse looks perky and happy, it's better to go like that than allow it to become sick and traumatised. 
Secondly, have your emergency plan so you know what to do, who to call, what you would want done with the body etc. When you're in a shocked or upset state it is all much more difficult.
Morbid subject but one we should be much more prepared for and open about.
Let's hope we all have a  long time with our animals before having to face it, but when we do we know what to do.
		
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I'd like to second this.  I was caught out completely when my mini shettie had his fatal accident in the field.  I'd always thought that I would have time to discuss and make arrangements when the time was right.  What happened that night proved just how vital it is to have done your research and to be prepared.  I've kept the numbers I need from that awful time because all the people concerned were absolutely fantastic, from the attending vet through to the guy who came to collect the body the next day.  They were all so professional and completely sympathetic and practical which helped enormously while I was so utterly grief stricken that I could barely speak to say what was needed.  Big thanks also to a very dear friend who assisted and knows me and knew the pony well enough to be able to ask the questions that I wanted to ask but couldn't get the words out to do so.  If you have a trusted friend, relative or even acquaintance that can be there for you then I would recommend that as well, whether a planned PTS or emergency as this was.


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## fatpiggy (30 March 2015)

I think alot of vets routinely sedate now.  My rising 30 year old mare was PTS by injection 2 years ago and the vet doped her automatically.  She went gently and quietly, with no struggle and subsequent movements of any type.  The vet monitored her heartbeat over several minutes, advised me that it was slowing and then had subsequently stopped.  I couldn't have asked for a better and more dignified end for my dear old girl.


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## dizzyneddy (1 April 2015)

Everyone has their own views about what method to use when having a special horse or pony put to sleep but l have always had my vet use a gun as its the quickest and kindest way to let them go.


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## fburton (2 April 2015)

dizzyneddy said:



			Everyone has their own views about what method to use when having a special horse or pony put to sleep but l have always had my vet use a gun as its the quickest and kindest way to let them go.
		
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You believe it's the quickest and kindest way - that's your right and is perfectly reasonable, but implying that pts by injection is less kind than shooting should be avoided I think.


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## Red-1 (2 April 2015)

I have had my old pony PTS by captive bolt, and OH's by injection. Both went very smoothly.

A neighbour had a horrendous time with a bolt, and the horse was in agony for half an hour while more equipment was bought, hence OH insisting on injection.

However, a vet who was a friend had once told us about times he had made errors in dosing, once did not have enough in the car, and he did say it was not an exact science. So, OH had a very strong word with the vet who was coming, to have enough drugs to finish six Charlie's, as he would not be accountable for his actions if this were not done correctly.

The vet was FAB, the people to collect came just as she did, he was sedated and walked quietly onto the lawn, and we both held and stroked him until he fell. He just went down, groaned once and lay. We had as long as we needed to make sure he was indeed gone. Other than to tell us to be aware we were not pulled away.

I don't think there is a "best" way, as I agree it is all to do with the skill and foresight of the individual concerned. I can see that adrenaline could complicate matters for either way. I just pray that if I have to do this again, and I own a horse so that is a likelihood, that whatever method we use goes to plan.


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## Clannad48 (2 April 2015)

Mooseontheloose said:



			While we're on this subject, which I know is morbid, but quite rightly being sensibly discussed - I own two older ponies who are outgrown and loaned to family homes. I have written formally to both loaners stating that if anything should happen they are not to wait until they have contacted me, but in the event of a serious colic or injury they have my permission to euthanaze the pony. I would hate to think of someone trying to contact me when we have useless phone connectivity or I may be in a meeting or something similar. I would not want an old pony subjected to colic surgery or expect a loaner to go to that expense.
Secondly I have a letter lodged with my vet also stating the same thing. I am abroad on occasions for work, and I trust my vet to make the right decision. 
I know some people will be shocked that I wouldn't do colic surgery, and I know that it has been successful in many cases, but I would not want it in an older animal. 
Of course, this is very much a personal wish, and I respect that others would do differently.
		
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This ^^ one hundred percent - although my daughter is now 23 I am the legal and registered owner of the horse and would not want my daughter to be in a position of having to make the decision. I have also left written instructions with the vet surgery and the yard owner that in such an instance the vet can PTS without contacting me first if it is in the best interest of the horse.  Having seen a situation where the owner dithered because they didn't want to make the decision and the PTS being delayed worries me greatly if it should ever happen to my horse.  Yes some people consider planning PTS situations as morbid but at the end of the day it is what is best for the animal, not the human.


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## The wife (3 April 2015)

Yes I have been the unfortunate witness to an injection euthanasia going seriously wrong, 9 years ago and it still haunts me to this day. Horse was a very strong, young, big WB. A lovely animal in every which way, unfortunately after years of treatment for Navicular and him not settling to a retired life he was to be PTS.

The vet was very young and obviously intimidated by this horse, it was the first (and consequently) the last injection PTS experience I will ever witness. She injected him first but with nowhere near a high enough dose. He initially dropped to his knees and fought it. 5 injections later, a severed artery, a heavily bleeding head and neck and a horse who was literally banging his head against the floor, half with it, half completely out of it and I was begging the gamekeeper to just shoot him with his shotgun. She started crying and went and sat in her car while I had to phone her boss and tell him to do the job properly.

45 minutes that poor animal waited to finally be put out of his misery. He was in a serious mess by the time her boss arrived and we had, had to wrap a rug around his head to stop him smashing it against the floor and used to jumpers to stem the bleeding from his artery and neck - Transpires she had never put a horse to sleep before unaided and while the 1st lot did go into the artery, it was hit and miss about if the rest went IV or muscle.

I vowed to this day to only ever have mine shot, we are blessed to have an exceptional good knackerman here, a very kind and compassionate young man who is fantastic at his job. The last horse he did for me was a pleasant experience as it can be, it's never going to be a nice thing to do but I didn't even realise he was carrying his gun, the horse has his head in a bucket and didn't know anything about it and went very quickly, peacefully and with his mum at his head.


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## MissTyc (3 April 2015)

I stayed when my old boy was put down - held him to the end, as far as possible. 
The vet was lovely, explained all that could happen during the process and after he went down. I am a biologist so I already knew, academically, but it another thing to see it in my beloved boy (I got him when I was 12, PTS when I was 30!) and I am very glad the vet warned me on the day. 
The act itself was uneventful. The boy galloped around and refused to let me catch him, then gobbled his carrots, then stood calmly as the vet inserted a catheter. Then a last carrot and out goodbyes. He was given a sedative and he just stood there, swaying slightly as they can under sedation. The barbiturate went in and a few seconds later he pitched forward and then to his side. He paddled a few times, let out an enormous gasp and a fart, vet checked his heart and then left me to sob my little heart out. I was glad to have seen the whole thing, it made me feel he was "ready" ... which is silly of course because at whatever age they will go down with an overdose of barbiturates.


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## minesadouble (3 April 2015)

fburton said:



			You believe it's the quickest and kindest way - that's your right and is perfectly reasonable, but implying that pts by injection is less kind than shooting should be avoided I think.
		
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I agree with this. Both methods are humane when performed correctly. It appears to me that increasingly more vets do not have a gun licence and can only PTS by injection anyway.
My own vet maintains that if the injection 'goes wrong' it is because it has been administered incorrectly and that it is not possible for a horse to 'fight' the injection.
Let's face has anyone ever heard of a dog or horse admitted for surgery and returned to find the op has not been performed because the animal in question 'fought' the anaesthetic?


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## Mooseontheloose (4 April 2015)

The wife said:



			Yes I have been the unfortunate witness to an injection euthanasia going seriously wrong, 9 years ago and it still haunts me to this day. Horse was a very strong, young, big WB. A lovely animal in every which way, unfortunately after years of treatment for Navicular and him not settling to a retired life he was to be PTS.

The vet was very young and obviously intimidated by this horse, it was the first (and consequently) the last injection PTS experience I will ever witness. She injected him first but with nowhere near a high enough dose. He initially dropped to his knees and fought it. 5 injections later, a severed artery, a heavily bleeding head and neck and a horse who was literally banging his head against the floor, half with it, half completely out of it and I was begging the gamekeeper to just shoot him with his shotgun. She started crying and went and sat in her car while I had to phone her boss and tell him to do the job properly.

45 minutes that poor animal waited to finally be put out of his misery. He was in a serious mess by the time her boss arrived and we had, had to wrap a rug around his head to stop him smashing it against the floor and used to jumpers to stem the bleeding from his artery and neck - Transpires she had never put a horse to sleep before unaided and while the 1st lot did go into the artery, it was hit and miss about if the rest went IV or muscle.

I vowed to this day to only ever have mine shot, we are blessed to have an exceptional good knackerman here, a very kind and compassionate young man who is fantastic at his job. The last horse he did for me was a pleasant experience as it can be, it's never going to be a nice thing to do but I didn't even realise he was carrying his gun, the horse has his head in a bucket and didn't know anything about it and went very quickly, peacefully and with his mum at his head.
		
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As the original poster of this thread I had't gone in to too much detail but your experience was very like the one we had had, except it was an old pony also colicking - it was horrendous. Never again.


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## R.F.S (20 May 2015)

The wife said:



			Yes I have been the unfortunate witness to an injection euthanasia going seriously wrong, 9 years ago and it still haunts me to this day. Horse was a very strong, young, big WB. A lovely animal in every which way, unfortunately after years of treatment for Navicular and him not settling to a retired life he was to be PTS.

The vet was very young and obviously intimidated by this horse, it was the first (and consequently) the last injection PTS experience I will ever witness. She injected him first but with nowhere near a high enough dose. He initially dropped to his knees and fought it. 5 injections later, a severed artery, a heavily bleeding head and neck and a horse who was literally banging his head against the floor, half with it, half completely out of it and I was begging the gamekeeper to just shoot him with his shotgun. She started crying and went and sat in her car while I had to phone her boss and tell him to do the job properly.

45 minutes that poor animal waited to finally be put out of his misery. He was in a serious mess by the time her boss arrived and we had, had to wrap a rug around his head to stop him smashing it against the floor and used to jumpers to stem the bleeding from his artery and neck - Transpires she had never put a horse to sleep before unaided and while the 1st lot did go into the artery, it was hit and miss about if the rest went IV or muscle.

I vowed to this day to only ever have mine shot, we are blessed to have an exceptional good knackerman here, a very kind and compassionate young man who is fantastic at his job. The last horse he did for me was a pleasant experience as it can be, it's never going to be a nice thing to do but I didn't even realise he was carrying his gun, the horse has his head in a bucket and didn't know anything about it and went very quickly, peacefully and with his mum at his head.
		
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I haven't experienced a bad injection first hand however a very close friend had a similar story to yours although not quite so messy her horse fought it and fought it hard he was dragging her up and down trying to rear and pulling himself around on the floor she is truely traumatised by the whole experience and I am glad I was not there to witness it. When the decision had to be made for my own horse last year I couldn't risk the same scenario so I chose to got to the hunt yard which was as good of an experience it could of been we were met and lead into a stable i have her a pat and cuddle and stepped outside he walked her in a circle have her a carrot and the deed was done I then went back in to see her afterwords. It was very professional and the man was lovely and very supportive and should I ever have to do it again I would go back there


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## Copperpot (20 May 2015)

Yes mine. He got up, fell over, got up, staggered, almost fell on bonnet of vets car and eventually went down and stayed down. He was still breathing and panicking on the floor though. I will never forget it and never use the injection again.


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## hackedoff (23 May 2015)

Mine was a real fighter pts with lethal injection and dropped like a stone. He was ready to go I think.


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## FfionWinnie (23 May 2015)

Vet did a lamb by injection and nothing happen. He missed the vein so had to do it again which worked. 

My mare reared up and went over backwards and travelled from one end of the treatment room to the other backwards. Which really made a bad situation worse for me.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (23 May 2015)

I would prefer a bullet for my boy done by the huntsman if possible. But if it's not possible due to circumstances IE the vet has no gun handy or they don't send a firearms registered vet to me then I will use the injection even though I have seen in fail on more occasions than I've seen it successful.

I wouldn't make my horse wait in agony because of personal choice.


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