# important announcement from DEFRA re passports



## LynneB (13 January 2011)

www.horsebreedersmagazine.com

click on the link on the front page.  This will have implications for all studbooks in the UK


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## KarynK (13 January 2011)

Great just what we need! Because the NED has worked so well hasn't it!!   My 3 year olds and everything I&#8217;ve bred since is still not on the NED, which they blamed on my PIO, who are NOT to blame and now I get no replies to my queries.  

So now we will have to pay more to fund it all, put up with hideous bureaucracy and pay for the National Database too boot as well as depriving breed societies of any income from the process.

Nice to see that DEFRA are now allowing plenty of time for consultation and involving all interested parties NOT.

Here we go again, because it won&#8217;t stop here.

If something has had several years to prove itself, has to charge quite a lot for it&#8217;s &#8220;services&#8221;, maintains inaccurate information and is clearly not fit for purpose and is not required by law then don&#8217;t saddle the breeding industry with the problem get rid of it!


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## GinnieRedwings (13 January 2011)

KarynK said:



			If something has had several years to prove itself, has to charge quite a lot for its services, maintains inaccurate information and is clearly not fit for purpose and is not required by law then dont saddle the breeding industry with the problem get rid of it!
		
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Hear, hear!


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## angrovestud (13 January 2011)

Ned is a joke I have my stallions records with Weatherbys Chaps and they are up to date NED is not I am not even his owner you know what would have been funny in a horrid way is if the horse tax had come in and they taxed you on the horses you owned according to med my bill would be 0 well done for getting it so wrong and wasting so much money


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## skint1 (13 January 2011)

I'm not a breeder but I sympathise with you all, NED is a joke


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## Faithkat (13 January 2011)

I have never understood why there isn't already one central equine registration organisation.  Other animals only have one: viz: The Kennel Club, GCCF, Rabbit Council etc.  It would certainly simplify and tighten things up especially with regard to "policing" correct entries at shows etc


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## KarynK (13 January 2011)

Faithkat said:



			I have never understood why there isn't already one central equine registration organisation.  Other animals only have one: viz: The Kennel Club, GCCF, Rabbit Council etc.  It would certainly simplify and tighten things up especially with regard to "policing" correct entries at shows etc
		
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Yeah cus the KC have done such a fantastic job haven't they, all that red tape, some ill thought out decisions, often influenced by personal views or views of those of influence within the dog world and knee jerk reactions to the power of the press!  Just what the equine industry needs.

I doubt very much that a centralised horse registry will come any where near close to simplyfying anything and who's going to pay for the "policing" currently done by individual bodies at cost, give that over to a quango and you will at least triple the price of a passport.

Quango's can't function without their own purpose built offices, headed stationary a committee for everything including the tea and coffee rota, some nice 4wd vehicles in which to police, some fashionable uniforms and the latest technology that then does not do what it says on the can oh and some form of duplication in there too!

It's not the passport issuers that are at fault they are doing a good job generally for a very small price, the weak link is the NED so WHY on earth would you even begin to contemplate giving such a body MORE power and less money.  The only ones that will loose will be horse breeders and owners and if the Tax comes in too!!


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## sywell (14 January 2011)

New DEFRA plans to take over all passport issuing and stop all organisations issuing passports is a body blow to the breed societies who rely on this income to keep the society afloat. They intend to sell this revenue source off to the highest bidder and so have a central database at zero cost to the taxpayer which means of course that you will have to pay more for your passport as you will be paying for all the governments total expenditure. The claim that the economies of scale will reduce costs is nonsense as most small breed societies are run by dedicated volunteers who are not paid. The NED contract will expire in October 2011. The DEFRA claim that standardisation will improve the quality of passports means that the best passports will be worse. It is quite laughable that Weatherbys Passports would be issued by a commercial orgaisation approved by DEFRA. The complexity of Sports Horse passports which are controlled by studbook experts with years of knowledge leads to a better control of fraud as how many people would spot that a new passport application with a 528 chip number was a false claim as 528 is a KWPN number and the horse would have been issued with a KWPN passport.
DEFDRA was told in 2003 that allowing anyone to issue passports was a mistake an so it has proved. 
The directive says the organisation or association officially approved or recognised by the Member State or by an official agency of the Member State concerned as referred to in the first indent of Article 2(c) of Directive 90/427/EEC which manages the studbook for that breed for that breed of animal, as required in accordance with Article 2(c) of Directive 90/426/EEC
(b)	a branch with its headquarters in a Member State of an international association or organisation which manages horses for competition or racing as referred to in Article 2(c) of Directive 90/426/EEC;
How does that define the Veteran Horse Society?
The proposal goes on to say that breed societies will continue to be responsible for breed preservation and the verification of the pedigree information. So how will they be paid for that service and by whom and how will that be cheaper than letting them do the passports.


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## Yorketown (14 January 2011)

I hope all the major PIOs attend the meeting and that DEFRA listen.  As PIOs have been successfully issuing passports for many years (with the exception of a couple) they will be the best people to discuss the way forward.  

NED has not been working well, good idea but has not worked in practice.  My 2010 foals are still not on the database and my previous 2009 youngsters were on the database but not attached to their dams.  I may be a mere hobby breeder but I am all for the major breed societies keeping their passport issuing powers, no one has brought any evidence that this system is not working &#8211; the only thing not working is NED.    To me it seems the failing is communication between NED and the breed societies and quite frankly the thought of NED taking over everything is scary!!


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## angrovestud (14 January 2011)

I just cant see weatherbys for one letting go of passports and the power behind racing letting it go either.


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## Faberge (14 January 2011)

Yorketown said:



			I hope all the major PIOs attend the meeting and that DEFRA listen.  As PIOs have been successfully issuing passports for many years (with the exception of a couple) they will be the best people to discuss the way forward.  

NED has not been working well, good idea but has not worked in practice.  My 2010 foals are still not on the database and my previous 2009 youngsters were on the database but not attached to their dams.  I may be a mere hobby breeder but I am all for the major breed societies keeping their passport issuing powers, no one has brought any evidence that this system is not working &#8211; the only thing not working is NED.    To me it seems the failing is communication between NED and the breed societies and quite frankly the thought of NED taking over everything is scary!!
		
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Agree agree agree!


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## Maesfen (14 January 2011)

Yorketown said:



			I hope all the major PIOs attend the meeting and that DEFRA listen.  As PIOs have been successfully issuing passports for many years (with the exception of a couple) they will be the best people to discuss the way forward.  

NED has not been working well, good idea but has not worked in practice.  My 2010 foals are still not on the database and my previous 2009 youngsters were on the database but not attached to their dams.  I may be a mere hobby breeder but I am all for the major breed societies keeping their passport issuing powers, no one has brought any evidence that this system is not working  the only thing not working is NED.    To me it seems the failing is communication between NED and the breed societies and quite frankly the thought of NED taking over everything is scary!!
		
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I don't think we should hope but INSIST that all PIOs attend this meeting.  There should be no excuses from any of them, they all should be able to send at least one person from their committees to it.

Agree with your other point entirely.  We don't actually need NED at all and if the Gov' need to know anything they should make the PIOs accountable for passing on numbers etc; it would be a whole lot cheaper to do it that way than set up another version of useless NED.  There is no need for anyone having to pay out for anything more.  Perhaps it's time for quick emails before the meeting to the MPs and DEFRA about how we feel as we are the ultimate customers of passports.


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## ihatework (14 January 2011)

I might be being very naive here, and given I'm not overly familiar with NED / PIO's /Breed Society structure etc, I might be way off mark here ....

But I can see the benefits of having a centralised register, such as the NED. I'm not convinced of the merits of a central passport agency though.

Currently the system seems a bit arse about tit. Would it not make more sense to say, for example, have a system whereby for new born equines the owner is required to register the horse on the NED database along with the now required Microchip number. The NED would issue a unique horse identifier. This would be done prior to application for a passport.

This unique horse identifier would then be incorporated into the PIO system to provide a cross link.

And then have a similar system for imported horses?


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## JanetGeorge (14 January 2011)

Maesfen said:



			I don't think we should hope but INSIST that all PIOs attend this meeting.  There should be no excuses from any of them, they all should be able to send at least one person from their committees to it.
		
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IF they know about it!  I got the letter from another source and was rather surprised I had heard nothing from IDHS(GB) (as I'm a Trustee.)  IDHS(GB) hadn't got it!  SO - less than 12 days notice of a meeting - in London - which will mean a Trustee dumping other things to get to London for the meeting - AFTER dozens of e-mails go back and forth between Trustees determining what 'our position' will be.

It appears that DEFRA is saying a single PIO is what will happen - the 'consultation' is after the event!  This is going to cost all breed societies a LOT of money - and as the single PIO WILL be a 'for profit' organisation, it's going to cost all breeders a lot more too!

Of course, it's primarily a result of the Government cutting budgets - but this is one we CAN put a stop to.


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## Yorketown (14 January 2011)

NED could have its uses (if it functioned as it should).  1. When purchasing a horse you could easily ascertain if the person selling the horse is in fact the owner.  2. Reviewing a stallions performance and progeny records (not essential but I had great fun going through NEDs records for this purpose).  3. Maybe the most important use would be if there was a disease outbreak it is beneficial for there to be a central database of all horses in the UK so that letters can be sent out to owners, infected horses movements could be checked etc.  It could actually be improved to contain other useful information.  For example if a horse had a serious tendon injury an owner could update the database with this information to prevent the horse ever being sold in the future as a completion horse after they have sold it in good faith as a companion/nanny.  

However, as pointed out it could also be used by any future government for taxation purposes.  I suppose you would have to weigh up the good and the bad.


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## Yorketown (14 January 2011)

Please can people contacting their Breed Society to ensure a representative will be attending the meeting.  So peeps, get emailing/writing/calling!!  Thank you.


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## Smee (14 January 2011)

Yorketown said:



			Please can people contacting their Breed Society to ensure a representative will be attending the meeting.  So peeps, get emailing/writing/calling!!  Thank you.
		
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I've also posted link on BD forum - I guess the more that know, the better...


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## Rollin (14 January 2011)

Faithkat said:



			I have never understood why there isn't already one central equine registration organisation.  Other animals only have one: viz: The Kennel Club, GCCF, Rabbit Council etc.  It would certainly simplify and tighten things up especially with regard to "policing" correct entries at shows etc
		
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Agreed.  France has one database.  We have found it very efficient and horses are automatically registered in their mother stud books.  My Shagya Arabs have French Passports and are registered in the  mother stud book in Switzerland.  It costs me 45 euros.

We have our own 'page' on the Haras Nationaux website and can check our details at any time.  The people are helpful.

Our UK breed society have been somewhat difficult to deal with, on occasions, and a dispute with regard to the registration of French born British Natives is still not resolved after 5 years.

I would be even more worried if DEFRA were to manage the system.  During five years I have only dealt with one person in France and one person at the German Equestrian Federation -both experts on equine matters.  At DEFRA a total of six different people have dealt with my case, none of them equestrian specialists.


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## Rollin (14 January 2011)

ihatework said:



			I might be being very naive here, and given I'm not overly familiar with NED / PIO's /Breed Society structure etc, I might be way off mark here ....

But I can see the benefits of having a centralised register, such as the NED. I'm not convinced of the merits of a central passport agency though.

Currently the system seems a bit arse about tit. Would it not make more sense to say, for example, have a system whereby for new born equines the owner is required to register the horse on the NED database along with the now required Microchip number. The NED would issue a unique horse identifier. This would be done prior to application for a passport.

This unique horse identifier would then be incorporated into the PIO system to provide a cross link.

And then have a similar system for imported horses?
		
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YES YES YES.

An argument I have had with DEFRA for five years.  All horses imported to France have to have new papers prepared by a FRench vet and MUST be registered on the Haras Nationaux database - cost for registration 120 euros per horse.

French horses coming into the UK come in for 'free'.

British Breeding has been disadvantaged for years.


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## oldforge (15 January 2011)

Of what use is the NED database?   How many people use it?  How much money have the brought in?   
This idea of a central passport issuing organisation is a non starter for pedigree animals. If this had even been thought of before passports were mandatory is one thing.  The implication of someone other than the experts at a breed society issuing passports and actually how they would do it makes the mind boggle.  Any registration body out there knows full well that the work involved to correctly identify the horses from badly filled in and incorrect spellings on covering certificates is the first stumbling block and needs skilled staff.  Picking the correct stallion, the correct mare, checking that they are indeed entered for breeding, parent verified etc. + time delay sending the DNA to the lab and getting the result back.  It may well be that passports would not be issued within that first 6 months as is currently law.  Look forward to reading more posts on this subject.


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## firm (15 January 2011)

As a passport &#8220;consumer&#8221; I do see merit in this idea if it is done well. I don&#8217;t see why the likes of Weatherbys should give up issuing passports as they are absolutely fantastic as are many of the other bigger PIOs.  However the service does vary elsewhere and a few PIOs have disappeared in the last few years leaving people in difficulties. 
In Denmark the small breed societies do have their passports issued by  a Govt body which is staffed by poeple very clued up on passports. The Breed societies still exist. There is  a database maintained which if you are a member of the small breed societies you get free access to . So you could work something like that incoporating NED.  However I think Danish WB for example still issue their own passports.  Maybe that woud work in the UK? 

Passports have tightened up. You are all talking as if the current situation is fantastic? I know people waiting for passports to turn up. Their foals cannot leave to go to a new home because the transporter will not take it without a passport.  If you are transporting a foal 300 or 400 miles or even further afield, this is a serious problem as the transporter is booked well in advance. They cannot contact the volunteer at their PIO to find where their passport is.  I volunteer as well and I know how hard it is but that is exactly the point. When my passport does not turn up, it is much easier to contact an employed person at a work number and get stroppy saying this foal needs to leave, where is my passport than it is to do the same to a volunteer &#8211; if you can get hold of them at all?

The other thing I think is crazy is having separate microchip companies for horses. The PIO or Defra if it is in charge, should issue the microchip with the passport application form and all the info should be in one place.  When a foal is sold the new owner should only have to pay to change their details ONCE with the PIO and that should also up date the microchip info which is recorded on the passport, having to pay again and contact separately a microchip company seems completely mad.   I would like to see PIO's sorting this out , that would cut costs for owners and be much better for horses to have all info in one place. 

There also see to be real variance in some PIOs in how they follow the law and how they reissue passports for older horses.   Something does need to be done and Defra could do it well especially if they employed some of the good voulunteers currently doing a fab job.


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## JanetGeorge (15 January 2011)

firm said:



			Something does need to be done and Defra could do it well especially if they employed some of the good voulunteers currently doing a fab job.
		
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I agree with some of your points - but that last one is a HOOT!  Defra cannot do ANYTHING well; it has NEVER done anything well - and the chances of it EVER doing anything well are about a million to one!

It made a TOTAL mess of implementing passports in the first place - and accepting PIO's.  "Oh yes, let's make Southall Market a PIO so when stolen horses arrive on market day with no passport, one can be issued on the spot!"  

And when the EU brings in new requirements in the paperwork, as part of the review and microchipping, let's FORGET to tell the PIO's about it for MONTHS - and then demand that they throw out thousands of pounds worth of paperwork, and replace everything virtually overnight!

I could go on (and on!) but you get the picture.

The REASON Defra has come up with this GREAT idea is that they have been told to cut their budget!  As NED needs more money, lets have a single, commercial PIO raking in the passport revenue - and IT can fund NED.  And bu**er the Breed Societies who will lose an important revenue stream - they can STILL verify breeding and do half the work for the new single PIO!

But don't tell them about this great idea of ours - and delay telling them about the so-called 'consultation' - with a bit of luck half of them won't be able to get to London at short notice - and as we don't intend to take ANY notice of them anyway ......

Believe me when I say this FARCE is going to cost breeders and owners MORE, and result in a FAR less efficient service!  It will achieve NOTHING of any value to anyone except Defra!!


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## angrovestud (15 January 2011)

Here Here JanetGeorge and then you have York horse sales that can ssue passports its a bloody con a license to STEAL ! and should have been nipped in the bud years ago how many stolen horses have been given a new passport its wrong.


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## firm (15 January 2011)

JG and As I also agree with your points. 
But what are PIOs going to do about it and how to improve things I mentioned above?   I believe NED is something that PIOs should be offering their members and is something needed in the UK.   Maybe the PIOs could tender for it? ;-) 

Before I decide completely that what Defra is suggesting is a bad idea, I would like to hear alternative suggestions to improve things from PIOs themselves and how to provide NED?   As a Society member I think I should have info on at least the horses and their progeny registered in a Society to make breeding decisions. 

A Breed Society can function without providing passports e.g. grading, memberships, free entry to NED could be negotiated if passport issuing was removed. 
However an organisation that just issues passports at markets etc  and no other benefits would not survive but I actually think that would be a very good idea

Edited just to reiterate I am not saying that PIO should lose their passport issuing status btu I hope this might shake things up and improve things!

I would certainly like to know which PIOs do attend this meeting.


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## JanetGeorge (16 January 2011)

firm said:



			But what are PIOs going to do about it and how to improve things I mentioned above?   I believe NED is something that PIOs should be offering their members and is something needed in the UK.   Maybe the PIOs could tender for it? ;-)
		
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The only thing the PIIO's CAN do about Defra's proposal is to fight it - Defra is attempting to rush it through with little/no consultation - and we have NO information on which to base a response.  NED isn't going to be put up for tender - it will go to whoever becomes the Universal PIO (God Forbid!)  This whole thing has come about because NED needs ongoing funding - and Defra is trying to slash its budget!




			As a Society member I think I should have info on at least the horses and their progeny registered in a Society to make breeding decisions.
		
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If you're a member of a Breed Society then you should HAVE that information available, in one form or another.  The IDHS (GB) has its entire database online (although it IS 'Members only) - I can look up any horse, its pedigree and its progeny .  In fact the Australian ID database (which incorporates the Irish and UK databases) is even better as you can get far more detailed breeding information - Coefficient of Inbreeding, AVK, ancestor 'loss' due to line breeding etc. etc. on either a 5 or 10 generation pedigree!!




			Edited just to reiterate I am not saying that PIO should lose their passport issuing status btu I hope this might shake things up and improve things!
		
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But Defra's proposal IS that ALL PIO's lose their passport issuing status - and that one company will get the lot!  Given the total lack of success that Government departments seem to demonstrate when it comes to selecting the right company for any job - PARTICULARLY anything involving IT or databases - the one thing this WON'T do is improve anything!


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## oldforge (16 January 2011)

Well Said, JG.

It should be RIP NED as it was with the British Horse Database.  It did not work then and it has not worked now.  Just leave the Breed Societies / PIOs alone.  DEFRA already get the mandatory data that has to be sent up monthly which was supposedly for disease surveillance?  Enough, no more expenditure for Government.  There is the saving - just Goodbye NED - let it go. Sad for the people that have tried so hard but it's not a flyer why pump more money in.

 Let's have some facts and figures as to what NED has cost so far, what the salaries were and to whom? what was the income, and etc.  Who can find that out?

As JG says there are plenty of ways of finding out information on the web these days and it is FREE.  Can't even find breeder names on NED.


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## oldforge (16 January 2011)

Excellent Quote from this thread...

If something has had several years to prove itself, has to charge quite a lot for its services, maintains inaccurate information and is clearly not fit for purpose and is not required by law then dont saddle the breeding industry with the problem get rid of it!


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## vicijp (16 January 2011)

I have not read the whole thread, but surely there is only one company who would have the expenditure and manpower to do the job - Weatherbys?
IMO, if they took over the whole shebang the only way would be up.


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## nikkiportia (16 January 2011)

vicijp said:



			I have not read the whole thread, but surely there is only one company who would have the expenditure and manpower to do the job - Weatherbys?
IMO, if they took over the whole shebang the only way would be up.
		
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^^^^^^^
This!!!!


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## LynneB (16 January 2011)

I wonder if they will tender for it.  I have only ever heard good things about Weatherbys.


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## Maesfen (16 January 2011)

vicijp said:



			I have not read the whole thread, but surely there is only one company who would have the expenditure and manpower to do the job - Weatherbys?
IMO, if they took over the whole shebang the only way would be up.
		
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Have to agree and remember, they were the ones running the British Horse Database so that's either a good or a bad thing.  I'd support them all the way if it happens but if something stupid like the Horse Passport Agency get it, it'll be enough to make me give up horses altogether.


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## oldforge (16 January 2011)

Seem to remember it was Weatherbys who took on the old British Horse Database, subsequently couldn't make it work and then pulled the plug.  Correct me if I'm wrong


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## Maesfen (16 January 2011)

oldforge said:



			Seem to remember it was Weatherbys who took on the old British Horse Database, subsequently couldn't make it work and then pulled the plug.  Correct me if I'm wrong
		
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I wonder if that was because they were competing with breed societies and the HIS for customers even though all the disciplines needed a BHD number, whether overstamped or a passport for you to compete with them..   Might be different if it's compulsory to register with them alone.


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## magic104 (16 January 2011)

I have not read through all the posts either, but I do feel NED let the taxpayer down.  For us to understand how we were let down we would need to know what the process is/was.  NED always, always, blame the passport issuing society.  As another poster as already said their offspring are not always linked correctly to the dam.  I had to contact the IDUK & get it corrected.  

The KC may not be perfect but it manages to keep records for 1000's of dogs & 100's of breeds including issuing full pedigrees.  The DVLA manage to do exactly the same thing, i.e. keep accurate records for 1000's of vehicles, including details of insurance/tax etc.  Therefore NED should not have had such a problem as it came after 2 organisations doing similar jobs & therefore had the knowledge in place to advise the best way forward. I dont believe NED was very pro-active anyway.  It was quiet obvious from the duplications that no one was doing any checking from their end anyway!  I might be unfair in that assumption, but can only go by my experience with them.  Weatherbys I believe are an excellent organisation to deal with so hope they have an input into any changes.


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## firm (16 January 2011)

Old Forge - NED is needed,  yes it is too expensive & inaccurate but PIO and breed societies and Defra, whoever, need to get it to work. 
I say this as someone who owns horses registered with 10 UK PIOs and who likely will be a member of three PIOS this year. 
It is not easy to find out info on UK stallions.  If I was wanting to use a UK stallion where can I go easily to  compare them?  If there is a UK based ID or a Hano stallion for example, out there who has had only ten foals but four are doing really well in eventing and would be a great match for my TB mare where can I find that info?      
I think stallion owners who pay to put their horses through breed society gradings & then pay every year, deserve that info to be freely available in one place. The members  who use those stallions also need that info to help them sell their UK foals. 
As a mare owner it is so much easier just to choose a stallion standing abroad where the info is readily available so if I need to sell the foal I can use that info to sell it.  
Breed societies and PIOs need to move forward which means more information to promote their horses which is surely the whole point of a Breed Society. 
There are loads of people out there who do great jobs for nothing and I really do appreciate that.


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## stolensilver (16 January 2011)

One of my biggest issues with NED is how expensive it is to get any information out of it. To look up the progeny of one stallion costs £5!!! If I remember correctly NED was supposed to generate income. The problem it has is twofold. Firstly the information it contains is far too frequently inaccurate and secondly access to that information is far too expensive. 

If DEFRA does steamroller this through and ignore the horse community yet again (remember the Countryside Alliance? 500,000 marched on London and were completely ignored) then I don't expect the information that OUR money is paying for via our passports to suddenly become free. It is far more likely that it will become even more expensive as that will be seen as a revenue stream for whichever profit making company takes this on. 

The passport for my foal this year cost close to £180 if you include membership fees to the studbook which are compulsory if you want full papers for any foals you breed. The thought of that fee going even higher in such a weak market for young horses is frightening and could result in even more quality british bred horses being registered as identity document only because of the financial savings this brings. (£25 v £180) This would be a big retrograde step for British Breeding and devalue our stock even further.

What I would like to see is for British Dressage and British Showjumping to follow the lead of British Eventing and publish league tables of the breeding of the top young horses and top international horses for free. If we had access to that sort of information we could find out which stallions were producing the best sports horses and reward those stallions owners by sending our mares to them. The breed societies could help too by putting up stallion statistics on their webpages. At present there is a wealth of information that is freely available to European breeders about the best lines to use but which is kept secret from breeders in the UK.


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## Fleur100 (16 January 2011)

The word on the ground is that Petplan will succedd in the tender to issue passports.

Some of the societies with their main stud book abroad are already making plans for registration to be done in France/Germany/Holland. However, this doesn't help the UK breeds....

Utter madness from DEFRA


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## Yorketown (16 January 2011)

I don't understand a). Why the decision was made without any input from the equine industry and b). Why the PIOs are only being given 8 working days notice to attend the meeting, all be it just to give their opinions on a decision that has already been made.  I would have thought that the breed societies/PIOs would have wanted a meeting of their representatives/board members before giving their views on a decision that will seriously affect them and in some cases could leave them in an extremely vulnerable financial position.

I find both a) and b) unacceptable but feel DEFRA really don&#8217;t give a s**t, although I have to admit I sent them a ranting email none the less.  

I know that the system for issuing passports needed to be reviewed (we all know certain PIOs will issue passports to adult horses who clearly already have a passport) and I do feel that a central database could be a benefit, but surely it is logical to ask the industry for their views on the way forward - not act on a knee jerk decision made to save the Government money.  Why don't these idiots learn that short term financial gains always cost more in the long term.


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## Thornesian (16 January 2011)

This is a typical _'open mouth without engaging brain'_ approach by Defra.
It made me laugh reading the letter suggesting how they could streamline the passporting process and save money at the same time!!
Easy when all they have to do is steal the money out of the mouths of breed societies.
Trouble is they will try to ride rough shod over us all and then it will be _'who'd have thought it'_ when it doesn't work
Unfortunately that will be too late for some of the smaller breed societies who will go to the wall without the income from their registrations and transfer processes.
So what if NED hasn't worked. Tough! but for gods sake don't penalise our long standing and hard working breed societies for the failures of others
I suggest everyone bombards Defra with emails. Stand up for our rights and let them know we won't go down without a fight !


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## firm (16 January 2011)

Petplan? the insurance company? I bet their tender will be cheap afterall they will be getting a lovely database of horse owners  to mailshot.  That is me off the fence!


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## JanetGeorge (17 January 2011)

Thornesian said:



			I suggest everyone bombards Defra with emails. Stand up for our rights and let them know we won't go down without a fight !
		
Click to expand...

No - not Defra!  THAT would be a waste of effort!  What we want is a concerted campaign of e-mails to our own MPs - so THEY will ask questions of the relevent Ministers!

The Government is not particularly concerned about HOW Defra/other departments cut their budgets - but they DON'T want a major backlash from the public for the tiny saving this exercise will generate!

This is the letter I have sent to my MP.

"Hi Philip

A rather major issue has just arisen for the horse world - most of them
don't know about it yet as Defra is NOT renowned for 'communication' -
particularly on issues that will be deeply unpopular!  (And I assure you
that it WILL be deeply unpopular!!)  A so-called 'consultation period' of
less than 3 weeks makes it pretty apparent that Defra doesn't WANT
meaningful consultation!!

As I'm sure you are aware, the horse passport situation is something of a
bad joke - primarily due to Defra's initial incompetence in introducing
passports.  There are currently about 80 Passport Issuing Organisations
(PIO's) which include most Breed Societies and some commercial
organisations.

Then there is the National Equine Database (NED) set up a couple of years
ago to bring all the horse data from all the PIO's into one place - that's
a mess too!

Last summer, your colleague, Daniel Kawczynski, asked a question of the
Minister - as follows:

Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and
Rural Affairs what recent estimate he has made of the percentage of
accessible National Equine Database records of pedigrees which are
accurate; and what assessment he has made of the effect on that level of
accuracy of the (a) absence and (b) lack of public availability of data on
semen imports and artificial insemination.

Mr Paice: As of 8 July 2010, National Equine Database Ltd has reported
that there are 1,389,192 active horse records in the National Equine
Database. Of these, some 56% (774,575 records) have had sire or dam data
supplied by independent breed societies.

Pedigree records are held on the commercial section of the National Equine
Database, which is owned and managed by National Equine Database Ltd on
behalf of the equine sector. The Government do not mandate the collection
of pedigree data, which is provided on a voluntarily basis by breed
societies.

No assessment has been made of the impact of semen imports and artificial
insemination on the number of accurate pedigree records in the National
Equine Database. Such data are not held on the Database. The Government do not maintain statistics on the artificial insemination of horses."

Putting aside the interesting grammar, the answer would appear to have
made it clear that the Government has no mandate to collect pedigree data
(and presumably therefore cannot GIVE a mandate to a 3rd Party.)

But - on 12th January 2011 - with no hint or whisper of any changes
reaching the PIO's a letter surfaced - copy attached.  It did NOT
reach the IDHS (GB) of which I am a Trustee - I obtained it via the equestrian media!!

It informs us of Defra's intention to effectively 'dump' NED, and to put
out to tender the entire passport operation - presumably to a commercial
organisation as none of the Breed Societies would be placed to take on the
whole thing!  It announces a meeting in London on 24th January (less than
2 weeks notice given) and the opportunity to give feedback in writing by
the end of January.  As consultation periods go, this is obscenely short -
particularly as there is NO detail at ALL in Defra's 'proposal'.

Obviously this proposal is of greatest concern to Breed Societies,
particularly those whose 'mother' studbook is in another country, and who
have to follow rules set down by their 'mother' studbook.  There is a
useful revenue stream attached to the role of PIO, which helps Breed
Societies cover the costs of maintaining their pedigree databases - all of
which vary enormously in the various studbook sections.

There are several immediate questions the horse world - and in particular
the Breed Societies - need answers to:

1.  Is the Government planning to mandate the collection of pedigree data
by an as yet unidentified PIO - and by what 'authority'?

2.  How is the Government planning to enforce a requirement that Breed
Societies provide pedigree data to a new 'universal' PIO - and at whose
cost would this provision be?

3.  What effect is all this going to have on the cost of passports?  In
the last few years, breeders have had to face the extra costs of
micro-chipping all foals - in addition to the costs of having a passport
issued, DNA testing etc.  Most breeders are struggling with the recession
anyway - extra costs will see many breeders going out of business and even
the risk of horses being 'dumped' - as currently happening in Ireland!

Heavens - this has gone on a bit and barely scratched the surface of our
concerns!  But I think you'll get the picture.  It would APPEAR that Defra
has come up with this great idea to avoid providing future funding for NED
- but it appears that little or NO thought has been given to the
complications and the costs!

I would be very grateful indeed if you could take this matter up with Jim
Paice.  This IS going to be a very hot potato - and any small saving that
Defra MIGHT be able to make on its budget will exact a heavy price in
terms of Government PR with the Equestrian world!

with kind regards"

If anyone wants to borrow parts of it to send to their MP, please feel free!  It only takes half a dozen MPs getting half a dozen e-mails on the same topic to create a 'topic' in the Members' Tea Room!


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## Maesfen (17 January 2011)

Janet, thank you for that, it's very good and to the point.  
I will use and abuse it for my MP if you don't mind, Stephen o'Brian will wonder what's hit him if most of Cheshire get writing!   I'll also send it to a Cabinet Minister who happens to live in our hunt country; where better to get it mentioned than Downing Street!


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## Thornesian (17 January 2011)

Well written Janet and I completely agree with you on directing our grievances to our MPs. 
Mine is Ed Miliband (for my sins)who I have written to before on other issues which he managed to sideswipe on to Defra to avoid responding to me directly and I got a bog standard appeasement from them so I don't hold much hope with him on this one.......
Paula


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## Thornesian (17 January 2011)

Has anyone else heard that this may only relate to 'ENGLAND' 
Apparently Wales have not been included in the Defra letter distribution (ie WPCS etc)Not sure of Scottish societies at this stage


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## Old Timer (17 January 2011)

I have read the DEFRA letter fully as it is published on another forum in full and I have noted the following passage &#8211; 

"Breed Societies will continue to be recognized by Government to fulfill their important studbook governance and breed preservation roles. They will also be responsible for the verification of pedigree information and will therefore continue to play a key role in the production of horse passports. Government will continue to share the passport data with industry for the purpose of the public equine website".

DEFRA are offering nothing new as under EU Law a Member State must recognize a bone fida studbook organization and therefore whatever changes may happen they must continue to do.  

It seems to me DEFRA are being awfully cheeky in effectively requiring Breed Organizations to supply free of charge vital information to this new QUANGO (thought these were being faced out not new ones created) in order for it to issue passports which they and not the Breed Society will received payment for.

I doubt if Breed Societies will be able to refuse to supply information, as I would imagine that any final legislation would have legally enforceable compulsory element attached to it.

It seems to me that in this proposal DEFRA are hijacking the Breed Societies income from registrations/passports to pay for this failing and ineffective organization NED.


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## Old Timer (17 January 2011)

Thornesian said:



			Has anyone else heard that this may only relate to 'ENGLAND' 
Apparently Wales have not been included in the Defra letter distribution (ie WPCS etc)Not sure of Scottish societies at this stage
		
Click to expand...

I thinks you are right this applies currently to only England the reason I say this I have been in contact with an organisation which operates under the Welsh Assmbly and they have not recieved a similar letter from their W/A.

Perhaps I am cynical but if I were DEFRA tactically I would not want the most powerfull and influential organisation in the UK the WPCS up against me from the outset and because of devolution they don't have to.


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## Maesfen (17 January 2011)

Just to let you know that Emma on The Horse Exchange has put a bit up about it and pointing the way to this thread so it might get a few more responses to the MPs..
http://www.thehorseexchange.com/news-desk/?p=000882

Old Timer, that's interesting about only being the English being affected.  I can see everyone clamouring for a WPCS passport if it happens!


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## sywell (17 January 2011)

DEFRA has always been very coy about its responsibility to the EU for the Horse Passport Regulation but it is responsible for Wales and Scotland to the EU but it is only responsible for passports in England.
	DEFRA has not said what it wants to achieve from the new proposals and it would help to know. The pledge that it would be zero cost to the tax payer bodes ill for a cheaper passport. The cost of running a database of the size DEFRA has to run to comply with EU requirements would be in excess £100000.They have to appoint a new provider and get the SI approved and the new provider has to set up his administrative structure to get all that done for the breeding season starting January 1st 2012 seems a very tall order.
	There is no suggestion that any compensation might be paid to the investment everyone had to make to comply with the DEFRA business plan that the PIOs had to comply with.
	As had been said DEFRA has no done very well so far so what if the new provider crashes as Momenta did and the BHD who will pick up the pieces. What if nobody bids?


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## no_no_nanette (17 January 2011)

Is it worth getting a FB page up about this?  I have no idea how you go about this, but its another very clear gauge of public concern that seems to get the government paying attention if enough people sign up to it


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## KarynK (17 January 2011)

There is also the fact that all the PIO's had to become limited companies in order to issue the passports and all the expenses that go with that, plus the fact they will all have stock for the production of passports.

Anyone who thinks that passports are going to remain the same price or be cheaper for this wonderful dream of standardisation and efficiency had better wake up it's time to go to work!

There will be commercial companies who will bid for this because of the commercial value of issuing the passports, charging people to use the database and the valuable commercial list of people owning horses,  but as above what happens when they get fed up with it!!!

The Gov't are paying more attention to petitions so one of those would be very useful, but only one because if loads of people start one then the numbers on the petition loose their value, over 500 signatures on a subject and they have to at least respond.

It would be useful to see the letter DEFRA have sent and quote from it when sending letters to MP's does anyone have a full copy or can someone post a link?


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## Aredis (17 January 2011)

It would be useful to see the letter DEFRA have sent and quote from it when sending letters to MP's does anyone have a full copy or can someone post a link?[/QUOTE]

If you go back to the original post there is a link posted.


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## JanetGeorge (18 January 2011)

KarynK said:



			The Gov't are paying more attention to petitions so one of those would be very useful, but only one because if loads of people start one then the numbers on the petition loose their value, over 500 signatures on a subject and they have to at least respond.

It would be useful to see the letter DEFRA have sent and quote from it when sending letters to MP's does anyone have a full copy or can someone post a link?
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, the Government has closed down the previous mechanism for on-line petitions - will be opening it up again on DirectGov - but probably not until later this year.

Full text of the letter below:

Area 5E Millbank
Nobel House
17 Smith Square
London
SW1P 3JR
Telephone: 020 7238 3000
Web: www.defra.gov.uk
Your ref:
Our ref:
Date: 12 Jan 2011
Dear Sir / Madam
Re: HORSE PASSPORT AND CENTRAL DATABASE SERVICE - IMPROVING THE EFFICIENCY AND REDUCING THE COST

As you may know the current Government NED contract expires later this year and must be retendered for state aid purposes in 2011 should the Government decide to implement comparable or similar successor arrangements. As there is no legal requirement for the UK to maintain a central horse database, we must consider whether Government should continue to fund such a service in the current economic climate; we do however recognise that a central database offers important benefits both to Government and the equine industry. We are therefore looking to develop a new contract which will improve the effectiveness and efficiency of the current system of passport data collection whilst at the same time reducing costs.

Passports are currently issued by almost 80 different delivery bodies (PIOs) and therefore investment is required to collate and process the passport data to form a central database. We intend therefore to move to a single equine identification organisation.

The new arrangements are intended to deliver a number of benefits, including the simplification of the process for customers; standardised quality and improved recognition of passports; the provision of a central database at zero cost to the taxpayer; standardised database records; and potential cost reductions due to economies of scale.

Breed Societies will continue to be recognised by Government to fulfil their important studbook governance and breed preservation roles. They will also be responsible for the verification of pedigree information and will therefore continue to play a key role in the production of horse passports.  Government will continue to share the passport data with industry for the purpose of the public equine website.

The retendering exercise will be advertised through Official Journal of the EU (OJEU) and is likely to require interested parties to complete a set of pre-qualification questions before being considered for inclusion on a shortlist of organisations whose tenders will be considered for award of the contract.

In the meantime, the current contract with NED has been extended until October 2011 to allow for the procurement of the proposed new service.
The work is being managed by a project Board which includes Government officials (including the Devolved Administrations and Local Government Regulators) and two industry representatives, Mark Shaw and Tim Morris.

We would like to seek your views on this exercise before commencing the procurement process and therefore Defra will be holding a meeting for PIOs at 2pm on 24th January at the Royal Horticultural Halls, Westminster. I would be grateful if you could let us know whether you are able to attend, by emailing horse.passports@defra.gsi.gov.uk, by 5pm on Thursday 20th January. In addition to the meeting, you are welcome to provide responses in writing by the end of January.

Yours faithfully
Donna Yates
Head of Equine ID, NED and Zootechnics
Livestock Hub
Direct line: 020 7238 5903
Email: horse.passports@defra.gsi.gov.uk
Web: www.defra.gov.uk


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## oldforge (18 January 2011)

Quote from Firm: - NED is needed, yes it is too expensive & inaccurate but PIO and
        breed societies and Defra, whoever, need to get it to work. 

Sadly Firm - That first sentence shot you in the foot.  Too expensive and inaccurate.  Why promote something where the data is inaccurate and will never be accurate unless huge expenditure is undertaken.  Will now wait for stats on the uptake on NED thus far.

BTW There is no overseas horse on NED database shown if there is no British Passport given in the last few years, therefore some of the pedigrees are without value.  Many people now are using stallions domiciled abroad with imported semen and there are many imported stallions standing at stud in the UK.   So when researching stallions it is absolutely meaningless to breeders who are looking for accurate pedigrees and bloodlines which they can get from Breed Societies or even from free online pedigreee databases which are being built up.  

Finding performance data these days is easy either through the disciplines who have all this data to hand or trawling the web. Without NED, the disciplines can put their info up on their own websites and either charge for it or give it away free.   Stallion owners have always advertised their horses and a good horse with good offspring promote themselves.  However, nothing beats getting in the car having done your research and going on a round robin of discovery to look for the stallion of your dreams.


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## firm (18 January 2011)

Old Forge what I am saying is that NED needs to become more accurate and less expensive.
Because: 
There are loads of horse owners out there who want to know more about their horses and do not know where to start.  They come on this forum quite often asking.  If there was somewhere central to go it would encourage more poeple to be interested in their horse's breeding. People are so chuffed if they find out their horse is related to a HOYS winner or a national SJ, even distant cousins.

There needs to be database to link passport and microchips for help with stolen horses etc.

Seriously you want someone to go to each discipline and then try and hunt down how successful the stallion or the mare's offspring and Uncle and Aunts have been. There is not even that faciilty for pedigree linking  and with BS you have to pay for each one unless you are a member even if you own the horse.  The stats are skewed in BE league tables if they do not tell you how many offspring the horse had, to get to his number one position. 
I wanted to grade my mare recently and I wanted her BS record for her grading and I had to pay for it. I wanted to find the foals she had before I owned her again for her grading, in case any of them are doing well.  I don't know their names, which could be different from their passports anyhow or who they were registered with - what a lot of legwork I will have to do to find that out & pay through the nose.
If anyone with an interest in British breeding and on PIO commitees thinks that is an okay situation then really as a small breeder I give up :-( 
It is too disjointed.


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## Rollin (18 January 2011)

Aredis said:



			It would be useful to see the letter DEFRA have sent and quote from it when sending letters to MP's does anyone have a full copy or can someone post a link?
		
Click to expand...

If you go back to the original post there is a link posted.[/QUOTE]

Also Lynne posted it in Horse Breeders Magazine


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## dianchi (18 January 2011)

GUYS!

Rather than moan about it we need to DO something. 
Write to your MP's THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE THERE FOR!!!!!

Janet George Wrote the following to her MP (and i have used it and sent it to mine as well) Use it as a template if you want but lets do something rather than stand on the side and complain! (well done Janet Fab letter!)

Hi XXXXX

A rather major issue has just arisen for the horse world - most of them
don't know about it yet as Defra is NOT renowned for 'communication' -
particularly on issues that will be deeply unpopular! (And I assure you
that it WILL be deeply unpopular!!) A so-called 'consultation period' of
less than 3 weeks makes it pretty apparent that Defra doesn't WANT
meaningful consultation!!

As I'm sure you are aware, the horse passport situation is something of a
bad joke - primarily due to Defra's initial incompetence in introducing
passports. There are currently about 80 Passport Issuing Organisations
(PIO's) which include most Breed Societies and some commercial
organisations.

Then there is the National Equine Database (NED) set up a couple of years
ago to bring all the horse data from all the PIO's into one place - that's
a mess too!

Last summer, your colleague, Daniel Kawczynski, asked a question of the
Minister - as follows:

Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and
Rural Affairs what recent estimate he has made of the percentage of
accessible National Equine Database records of pedigrees which are
accurate; and what assessment he has made of the effect on that level of
accuracy of the (a) absence and (b) lack of public availability of data on
semen imports and artificial insemination. 

Mr Paice: As of 8 July 2010, National Equine Database Ltd has reported
that there are 1,389,192 active horse records in the National Equine
Database. Of these, some 56% (774,575 records) have had sire or dam data
supplied by independent breed societies.

Pedigree records are held on the commercial section of the National Equine
Database, which is owned and managed by National Equine Database Ltd on
behalf of the equine sector. The Government do not mandate the collection
of pedigree data, which is provided on a voluntarily basis by breed
societies.

No assessment has been made of the impact of semen imports and artificial
insemination on the number of accurate pedigree records in the National
Equine Database. Such data are not held on the Database. The Government do
not maintain statistics on the artificial insemination of horses."

Putting aside the interesting grammar, the answer would appear to have
made it clear that the Government has no mandate to collect pedigree data
(and presumably therefore cannot GIVE a mandate to a 3rd Party.)

But - on 12th January 2011 - with no hint or whisper of any changes
reaching the PIO's - a letter surfaced - copy attached. 

It informs us of Defra's intention to effectively 'dump' NED, and to put
out to tender the entire passport operation - presumably to a commercial
organisation as none of the Breed Societies would be placed to take on the
whole thing! It announces a meeting in London on 24th January (less than
2 weeks notice given) and the opportunity to give feedback in writing by
the end of January. As consultation periods go, this is obscenely short -
particularly as there is NO detail at ALL in Defra's 'proposal'.

Obviously this proposal is of greatest concern to Breed Societies,
particularly those whose 'mother' studbook is in another country, and who
have to follow rules set down by their 'mother' studbook. There is a
useful revenue stream attached to the role of PIO, which helps Breed
Societies cover the costs of maintaining their pedigree databases - all of
which vary enormously in the various studbook sections.

There are several immediate questions the horse world - and in particular
the Breed Societies - need answers to:

1. Is the Government planning to mandate the collection of pedigree data
by an as yet unidentified PIO - and by what 'authority'?

2. How is the Government planning to enforce a requirement that Breed
Societies provide pedigree data to a new 'universal' PIO - and at whose
cost would this provision be?

3. What effect is all this going to have on the cost of passports? In
the last few years, breeders have had to face the extra costs of
micro-chipping all foals - in addition to the costs of having a passport
issued, DNA testing etc. Most breeders are struggling with the recession
anyway - extra costs will see many breeders going out of business and even
the risk of horses being 'dumped' - as currently happening in Ireland!

Heavens - this has gone on a bit and barely scratched the surface of our
concerns! But I think you'll get the picture. It would APPEAR that Defra
has come up with this great idea to avoid providing future funding for NED
- but it appears that little or NO thought has been given to the
complications and the costs!

I would be very grateful indeed if you could take this matter up with Jim
Paice. This IS going to be a very hot potato - and any small saving that
Defra MIGHT be able to make on its budget will exact a heavy price in
terms of Government PR with the Equestrian world!

with kind regards

Come on lets do something about this!


----------



## KarynK (18 January 2011)

Thank you Janet just what I needed and i must say just what I expected, my MP will be getting his letter tomorrow, will complain to DEFRA anyway just because I can! 

But from that their argument is completely blown out of the water.  It's because of diversity in data from the PIO's that NED has failed (ha ha ha), but in the new version the PIO's will still have to provide that data!   What a load of carp!!  Any modern computer system with that much money spent on it can accept data in a mulititude of formats, so what it is really down to is a human failure in those that purchased/built the system and are administering it and without so much as a why did you fail and what are you going to do about it (refund!), horse owners and breeders are going to have to pay for that and more!!

To be honest you can find out more about a horse on FREE to use NO COST TO THE TAXPAYER online pedigree databases than you ever could or will on NED!!  

As for stolen equines the first port of call is the Stolen Horse Database never NED as the data on stolen horses on NED is horribly inaccurate and not verrified by Police and Horsewatch like it is on SHD (also free of charge).


Sorry rant over!


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## dianchi (18 January 2011)

Worth a shot also-
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_175041262537967

Sometimes the joys of facebook do get things heard about so i thought it was worth a shot!
Please join up lets get this issue heard!


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## Maesfen (18 January 2011)

dianchi said:



			GUYS!

Rather than moan about it we need to DO something. 
Write to your MP's THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE THERE FOR!!!!!



Come on lets do something about this!
		
Click to expand...

Smugly   I sent mine an hour after Janet posted her letter to both my MP and to a Cabinet Minister who lives nearby (it helps that he rides too!)  I also emailed SHBGB and Weatherbys to say I hoped they would be sending representatives to the meeting as I was a customer of theirs and wanted to know they had got it covered.  More that know the better I think and have also had some feedback from The Horse Exchange who put up the Defra letter too so it is getting out there, slowly.

But I agree, get writing people please.


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## dianchi (18 January 2011)

Well glass of wine for you maesfen!

Come on guys!


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## firm (18 January 2011)

I will send letter of asking for more time as I have read some of what JG has said on BD and like it 

The free on line pedigree sites arghhhhh Sport Data not so bad but the other one - five times I have had to correct just ONE of my horses pedigrees on there. Before I came on here tonight I went and checked his pedigree and yep someone has changed it yet again. I am not bothering to correct it for the 6th time.


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## Maesfen (18 January 2011)

Lol, I'll stick with my lucozade thanks!


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## Herts05 (18 January 2011)

Wow. And I thought I was the only one with problems! So glad I read this thread. I too am having problems with getting my horse's details on NED and yes, like KarynK and others, have had the silent treatment from NED and DEFRA around this, despite trying for over 6 months. I even wrote to H&H a number of months ago and whilst I don't get every issue, I haven't heard them focus on this matter.
It does make my blood boil when DEFRA and NED quote the responsibilities of the PIOs to update NED monthly but they can't get their act together to update their website. 
I think this needs a higher profile. 
I know NED representatives read the forum (as I got a response from them when I first posted this a number of months ago - that was before they moved to radio silence of course!), so maybe we will get lucky and they will take the hint from this thread.
Its got to be better than sending an email via their complaints link on the NED website as that goes straight into a black hole.  I'm still not sure why they bother having this facility.


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## Herts05 (18 January 2011)

Letter to MP emailed! Thanks dianchi for posting the wording.


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## no_no_nanette (19 January 2011)

Herts05 said:



			Wow. And I thought I was the only one with problems! So glad I read this thread. I too am having problems with getting my horse's details on NED and yes, like KarynK and others, have had the silent treatment from NED and DEFRA around this, despite trying for over 6 months. I even wrote to H&H a number of months ago and whilst I don't get every issue, I haven't heard them focus on this matter.
It does make my blood boil when DEFRA and NED quote the responsibilities of the PIOs to update NED monthly but they can't get their act together to update their website. 
I think this needs a higher profile. 
I know NED representatives read the forum (as I got a response from them when I first posted this a number of months ago - that was before they moved to radio silence of course!), so maybe we will get lucky and they will take the hint from this thread.
Its got to be better than sending an email via their complaints link on the NED website as that goes straight into a black hole.  I'm still not sure why they bother having this facility.
		
Click to expand...

I hadn't realised until someone pointed it out on another forum that NED are between a rock and a hard place ..... I think that the real villains of the piece (why are we not surprised??!!) is Defra.  NED have had only two full-time staff, I believe, over two years to get in all the info from over 80 PIOs, with different systems, some who never answer, many who submit incomplete or incorrect info, and they themselves are often dependent on volunteer labour so it takes them forever to submit the info in the first place to NED.  I did think, on reading that, the NED staff have a very thankless task and maybe, however frustrating the current situation is for horse owners and breeders, what it points to is not NED bashing but that the current system needs to change and be rationalised.  NOT, however, with no consultation, a crazy deadline, and totally muddled thinking on the part of Defra!  Janet George has come up with one very interesting suggestion about a "co-operative" of PIOs, for instance - but this and other suggestions need time to explore.  This time round we need to try to ensure that whatever change is made, and whatever system is set up, it WORKS, for everyone concerned!


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## KarynK (19 January 2011)

Yes some of the free pedigree sites are inaccurate and subject to idiots changing details but the whole point is that they are run for free and contain all sorts useful info.

I happily subscribe to all breeds because providing I double check first I can go back generations, look at inbreeding co-efficients and details of animals inbred in the pedigree and their pictures for about $50 a year and download the results of my research to an excel spreadsheet and do even more with it! 

So if a group or even one or two enthusiasts can do this on line for hundreds of thousands of horses from different breeds worldwide with pictures on the web, then with a little tweaking as to who can imput and edit why can't the PIO's?  Why do we need to spend any money, advertising could pay for upkeep and improvements so it can be done at little or no cost !!!

Like I say what you would need is a comsultant IT specialist and some advertising revenue and a few ideas as to what people need then you are away.  

I'm afraid I have little sympathy for staff at NED, the contract was tendered for so should have allowed for the initial volume and differences in data supplied, this should have been considered before they took on the task taking tax payers money.  Modern IT systems should be able to cope with data from diverse sources if not then it was never fit for purpose.  I'm afraid I lost any sympathy when they failed to explain their situation, and started blaming PIO's !


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## KarynK (19 January 2011)

Once again I am very disappointed in your approach to consultation on matters related to horse ownership and passport issue.

I have just been made aware of your current proposal by letter to the PIO's which once again is knee jerk, under consulted and in my opinion ill thought out.  Combine that with the usual impossibly short consultation period and this is rushed and bound to encounter serious problems in the future.

Like others who own and breed horses I am very concerned by this stealth approach to major change, with the potential to seriously increase costs, so have written to my MP separately on the matter.  But I urge you to delay immediately the current rushed schedule to allow you to consult properly not just with PIO's,  but with other affected parties such as individual horse owners and breeders as well as groups and organisations.  Perhaps then you can approach this matter from a wider perspective gather ideas from those at the business end of passports and horse information, not saddle horse owners and breeders with the cost of another potential white elephant (that is not actually required by law), by rushing headlong  to save money!

There are plenty of us out here as you will know from your statistics and as a department you do not have the monopoly on good ideas, so allow us time and we may well surprise you on how best to abstract Tax Payers money from this whole process without increasing bureaucracy and cost to the end user.

If you feel inclined to let them know your thoughts (relatively politely of course) the address is:
horse.passports@defra.gsi.gov.uk


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## Yorketown (20 January 2011)

I sent DEFRA an email last week and I am still waiting for a reply


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## Aredis (20 January 2011)

Yorketown said:



			I sent DEFRA an email last week and I am still waiting for a reply 

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I really am surprised that you expect a reply from DEFRA within a week. Have you never dealt with them before !!


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## Tempi (20 January 2011)

I am not very up with passports etc - my horses obviously have them but thats as far as it goes.  

Can someone explain to me in simple persons speak (!) what this means?

Will all horses have to obtain a new passport with this one ''agency'' and you wont be able to get a passport from anywhere else such as AES, KWPN etc?  Or are existing passports kept and only new born horses will have to go with this new ''agency''?


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## Yorketown (20 January 2011)

Aredis said:



			I really am surprised that you expect a reply from DEFRA within a week. Have you never dealt with them before !!
		
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I know, I know - wishful thinking!!  I just thought as they had given the PIOs such short notice they would be quick with the responses and justifications as to why.  My mistake - won't happen again


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## Yorketown (20 January 2011)

Tempi said:



			I am not very up with passports etc - my horses obviously have them but thats as far as it goes.  

Can someone explain to me in simple persons speak (!) what this means?

Will all horses have to obtain a new passport with this one ''agency'' and you wont be able to get a passport from anywhere else such as AES, KWPN etc?  Or are existing passports kept and only new born horses will have to go with this new ''agency''?
		
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Tempi, from what I understand any foals born in 2012 will be issued a passport from the new agency, however more details should emerge once the PIOs have attended the meeting next week.  So far DEFRA are not being very forthcoming with the details.


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## elks (20 January 2011)

I have my horses registered with Pet ID Equine, they have always been really helpful and do a fast turnaround! It would be a shame to lose companies that do a good job.


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## Aredis (20 January 2011)

Mondays meeting has been postponed and DEFRA are inviting written responses from breed society's.


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## redinski (20 January 2011)

angrovestud said:



			Ned is a joke I have my stallions records with Weatherbys Chaps and they are up to date NED is not I am not even his owner you know what would have been funny in a horrid way is if the horse tax had come in and they taxed you on the horses you owned according to med my bill would be 0 well done for getting it so wrong and wasting so much money
		
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I have one of my horses currently passported with chaps, and cannot find him on NED'S at all. However my pony is passported with PET- ID his details show on NED'S.


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## JanetGeorge (20 January 2011)

Aredis said:



			Mondays meeting has been postponed and DEFRA are inviting written responses from breed society's.
		
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Funny how quickly Defra can exit the kitchen when it has to!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (20 January 2011)

Janet - just a quick message to say that I also copied your letter & emailed my MP about it on Monday
Have had reply back today via post & he's going to find out more.


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## Herts05 (20 January 2011)

I too have had an acknowledgement of receipt of my email from my MP, so let's wait and see what happens next.
Just shows how helpful these forums are.


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## oldforge (26 January 2011)

It has gone very quiet out there.  Is there any update? What are the Breed Societies doing about this?


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## LazyS (28 January 2011)

Aredis said:



			Mondays meeting has been postponed and DEFRA are inviting written responses from breed society's.
		
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Why does it state in yesterday's Horse & Hound Page 5 that "Passport meeting takes place - Breed societies MET with Defra on Monday to discuss the planned axing of the UK's 80 PIOs."?????  

What is going on?


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## LynneB (28 January 2011)

I wonder if the meeting was cancelled after Horse and Hound went to press? No idea though as I can't recall the timings


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## Ciss (28 January 2011)

oldforge said:



			It has gone very quiet out there.  Is there any update? What are the Breed Societies doing about this?
		
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Not if you are involved in running a PIO on a day to day level it hasn't -- letters and comments are winging their way to DEFRA from all directions as we speak -- and we await an official announcement from DEFRA as to what timescale we are all to be working to now. We also have the fascinating prospect of the Minister addressing the UK horse industry at the National Equine Forum in early March, and with all the studbook PIOs invited there as of right it should be quite a lively meeting 

BTW, a response to Lynne B: The DEFRA / PIO meeting was cancelled waaay before H&H went to press, in fact last Thursday lunchtime, which would surely have given them enough time to revise their story line <sigh>. But then, its only breeding and horse passports (coverage of which H&H always drops when it can becuase Lucy laughingly describes it as 'not sexy') so who cares anyway? <sigh>


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## Smee (28 January 2011)

Ciss said:



			But then, its only breeding and horse passports (coverage of which H&H always drops when it can becuase Lucy laughingly describes it as 'not sexy') so who cares anyway? <sigh>
		
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NOT SEXY enough!!
Right: I can feel a calender or similar coming on now then - who's up for it....???
;o)


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## shirleyno2 (28 January 2011)

Smee said:



			NOT SEXY enough!!
Right: I can feel a calender or similar coming on now then - who's up for it....???
;o)
		
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Well I know some good photographers and printers, but not sure I know the models! 
Seriously though, you coukld be onto something here.


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## JanetGeorge (29 January 2011)

Ciss said:



			The DEFRA / PIO meeting was cancelled waaay before H&H went to press, in fact last Thursday lunchtime, which would surely have given them enough time to revise their story line <sigh>. But then, its only breeding and horse passports (coverage of which H&H always drops when it can becuase Lucy laughingly describes it as 'not sexy') so who cares anyway? <sigh>
		
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That's a bit unfair!  The fault is with those who KNEW the meeting had been postponed - and didn't let H&H know.  We told them quick enough when we wanted the story covered the week before - and they did the story proud at short notice.

Let's face it, Defra wouldn't have sent them a press release saying: "Ooops - we have egg on our collective face - we've postponed the meeting!"


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## Rollin (29 January 2011)

oldforge said:



			Of what use is the NED database?   How many people use it?  How much money have the brought in?   
This idea of a central passport issuing organisation is a non starter for pedigree animals. If this had even been thought of before passports were mandatory is one thing.  The implication of someone other than the experts at a breed society issuing passports and actually how they would do it makes the mind boggle.  Any registration body out there knows full well that the work involved to correctly identify the horses from badly filled in and incorrect spellings on covering certificates is the first stumbling block and needs skilled staff.  Picking the correct stallion, the correct mare, checking that they are indeed entered for breeding, parent verified etc. + time delay sending the DNA to the lab and getting the result back.  It may well be that passports would not be issued within that first 6 months as is currently law.  Look forward to reading more posts on this subject.
		
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France has one PIO for pedigree animals.  Les Haras Nationaux has been running such a system for years.  It is linked both to the French National Database - SIRE and stud books.

When I obtained passports from HN for my Shagya Arabs they were automatically registered in the stud book in Switzerland.  HN also organise DNA testing if that is what stud books require and that can be done at the same time as the vet m/chips the horse and does the outline and description for the passport.  There is so much data on line it is a simple process.

Furthermore, HN issue a separate Carte D'Immatriculation which IS proof of ownership and should be kept by the owner and NOT the keeper of the horse.  Result no nonsense with your horse being 'stolen on loan' or out of the field and given a new passport by the friendly PIO at your local horse auction.


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## LazyS (31 January 2011)

Bumping this up as would like to know if there is any updates on the postponed meeting? Am preparing the newsletter for our breed society and it is a very important item that needs to be reported. This seems to be the most 'in touch' place to look. Thank you.


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## Tiny Fluffy Coblet (31 January 2011)

I might get shot down for this but when passports first came out I thought that a central organisation like the BHS or similar should be issuing a standard passport with unique passport number, identifying marks, colour and as much of the pedigree as is known on it. Then when the horse is registered with any other organisation (palamino horse soc, PBA soc, BS, whatever) the organisation uses the same passport number and overstamps a back page on the original passport to certify registered with them. The same people run the NED so the horse is entered into the NED when the passport is issued and can be found using that one passport number in any society it is regiestered with. When the paperwork goes off to register a change of ownership again the NED is updated. 

All microchips also carry the passport number.

I thought it sounded much easier than faffing around getting confused by multiple registrations and having thousands of different people inputting data into the NED.


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## Rollin (1 February 2011)

Tiny Fluffy Coblet said:



			I might get shot down for this but when passports first came out I thought that a central organisation like the BHS or similar should be issuing a standard passport with unique passport number, identifying marks, colour and as much of the pedigree as is known on it. Then when the horse is registered with any other organisation (palamino horse soc, PBA soc, BS, whatever) the organisation uses the same passport number and overstamps a back page on the original passport to certify registered with them. The same people run the NED so the horse is entered into the NED when the passport is issued and can be found using that one passport number in any society it is regiestered with. When the paperwork goes off to register a change of ownership again the NED is updated. 

All microchips also carry the passport number.

I thought it sounded much easier than faffing around getting confused by multiple registrations and having thousands of different people inputting data into the NED.
		
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You are correct.  Lord Astor preyed upon the legislation in the House of Lords, I have a copy of the Hansard of the debate, in which he says BHS expected to be the only PIO in the UK.

Let us face it passports in the UK have been a muddle from start to finish.  For the hell of it I obtained passports from different PIO's and found they all had different interpretation of the regs.


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## Maesfen (1 February 2011)

Rollin said:



			You are correct.  Lord Astor preyed upon the legislation in the House of Lords, I have a copy of the Hansard of the debate, in which he says BHS expected to be the only PIO in the UK.

Let us face it passports in the UK have been a muddle from start to finish.  For the hell of it I obtained passports from different PIO's and found they all had different interpretation of the regs.
		
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It was a crying shame that they weren't, wouldn't be half the trouble there is now.
Would be very interested to know which you think are the most comprehensive, better or bad quality and which you'd recommend for anyone with an unknown breeding type and which you wouldn't recommend in any shape of form because of their procedures for things like new owners and so on.  Would be good to have a comparison list to tick off the boxes we like or don't like.


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## JanetGeorge (1 February 2011)

Rollin said:



			You are correct.  Lord Astor preyed upon the legislation in the House of Lords, I have a copy of the Hansard of the debate, in which he says BHS expected to be the only PIO in the UK.
		
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Lord Astor might have said it - doesn't mean it was true!  The BHS Chairman at the time, Michael Clayton, DID push 'co-operation' regarding passports to the other organisations very enthusiastically.  His view - and he convinced the BHS Trustees accordingly - was that passports would be good for welfare, would help reduce theft, and would be 'an earner' for the horse organisations.  It was never suggested - or considered - that BHS would be the sole PIO.  It was seen that generic passports could encourage membership (as BHS would issue passports cheaper to members, as they still do.)  

UI was working at the BHS at the time in a senior role so was involved with all the discussions - and can contradict Lord Astor with inside knowledge.


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## JanetGeorge (1 February 2011)

SuenRoux said:



			Bumping this up as would like to know if there is any updates on the postponed meeting? Am preparing the newsletter for our breed society and it is a very important item that needs to be reported. This seems to be the most 'in touch' place to look. Thank you. 

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No updates re the meeting!  There is a lot of work being put in by some good people behind the scenes, and some interesting points have been made to Defra.  But Defra has gone VERY quiet.


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## Rollin (1 February 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			Lord Astor might have said it - doesn't mean it was true!  The BHS Chairman at the time, Michael Clayton, DID push 'co-operation' regarding passports to the other organisations very enthusiastically.  His view - and he convinced the BHS Trustees accordingly - was that passports would be good for welfare, would help reduce theft, and would be 'an earner' for the horse organisations.  It was never suggested - or considered - that BHS would be the sole PIO.  It was seen that generic passports could encourage membership (as BHS would issue passports cheaper to members, as they still do.)  

UI was working at the BHS at the time in a senior role so was involved with all the discussions - and can contradict Lord Astor with inside knowledge.

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There was a period of consultation on passports, before they were introduced.  I wrote to DEFRA and asked to see ALL the responses and sent my analysis to Lord Astor.

Of 200 organisations who were consulted, 40 replied and only 4 were in favour of Horse Passports.  BHS and BEF set identical letters claiming to represent the majority of horse owners in the UK.  BHS made no attempt to ask questions of members in their survey which they conducted that year.  Some of their comments, I thought were disrespectful to people who were NOT BHS members.  When I wrote to the Chairman - who I believe then went to the SSPCA SHE first ignored my letter and then when chased told me she was too busy to answer the questions I posed.  I did not renew my BHS membership!!!

I believe his Lordship was correct.  When passports were first introduced I found BHS, sadly, not quite on the ball when it came to answering questions.


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## JanetGeorge (1 February 2011)

Rollin said:



			Of 200 organisations who were consulted, 40 replied and only 4 were in favour of Horse Passports.  BHS and BEF set identical letters claiming to represent the majority of horse owners in the UK.  BHS made no attempt to ask questions of members in their survey which they conducted that year.  Some of their comments, I thought were disrespectful to people who were NOT BHS members.  When I wrote to the Chairman - who I believe then went to the SSPCA SHE first ignored my letter and then when chased told me she was too busy to answer the questions I posed.  I did not renew my BHS membership!!!

I believe his Lordship was correct.  When passports were first introduced I found BHS, sadly, not quite on the ball when it came to answering questions.
		
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AH - the 'lady' you refer to was the Chief Executive appointed after the consultation started - and I left as she arrived!!  (I'd been Acting CE in the 8 months prior when the initial consultation was underway - she probably didn't KNOW the answers to the questions!  In addition to me, she also 'lost' several very senior members of staff in her first few weeks!)

It may be that SHE had decided that BHS could hog the passport business - but it certainly wasn't considered previously!


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## Rollin (2 February 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			AH - the 'lady' you refer to was the Chief Executive appointed after the consultation started - and I left as she arrived!!  (I'd been Acting CE in the 8 months prior when the initial consultation was underway - she probably didn't KNOW the answers to the questions!  In addition to me, she also 'lost' several very senior members of staff in her first few weeks!)

It may be that SHE had decided that BHS could hog the passport business - but it certainly wasn't considered previously!
		
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I understand that membership soared after passports were introduced.

However, you and I will not agree on the DEFRA proposals.  I think there should be ONE PIO linked to a National Equine Database which is of benefit to breeders and owners, which the current one is not, largely because it is dependent on the 'whims' of the PIO's.

Breed societies should not forget that Passport and Stud book are not the same thing.  There is no reason why Stud books should not charge for registration as they did before we had passports.  As a breeder I am happy to pay this to support my breed society in the UK.

I would like to go onto NED and find that my filly's parentage is registered as opposed to 'not supplied by  PIO' and she is shown as not born in France but in USA!!!!  as supplied by PIO.


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## JanetGeorge (2 February 2011)

Rollin said:



			However, you and I will not agree on the DEFRA proposals.  I think there should be ONE PIO linked to a National Equine Database which is of benefit to breeders and owners, which the current one is not, largely because it is dependent on the 'whims' of the PIO's.
		
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There are currently more than 70 PIO's (there WERE 90!) It's a ridiculous number but - at the time - Defra insisted  that it was mandatory under EU legislation to allow the &#8216; customer&#8217;  the widest possible choice of supplier.  Suddenly, it seems it's NOT mandatory for the 'customer' to have a choice!




			Breed societies should not forget that Passport and Stud book are not the same thing.  There is no reason why Stud books should not charge for registration as they did before we had passports.  As a breeder I am happy to pay this to support my breed society in the UK.
		
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Slight problem though - cost!  If you have to pay for a passport AND pay for a registration - to two different lots of people - that's going to whack costs up at a time when most breeders are struggling!  I pay the vet to do the ID document, microchip and DNA sample - that's about £80.  I pay the Breed Society £30 for registration, £46 for DNA testing.  But I get my passport 'free'.  With a single PIO issuing passports independently of the Breed Society at - what - £30 per passport, that's an extra £400 a year I have to find.  And will the new PIO accept a copy of the ID document done for the Breed Society, or will I have to pay the vet twice for the same bit of paperwork.

It's crazy duplication!




			I would like to go onto NED and find that my filly's parentage is registered as opposed to 'not supplied by  PIO' and she is shown as not born in France but in USA!!!!  as supplied by PIO.
		
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The reason this data is not supplied by many PIO's is that it NOT required of them!  Some of them do it on a voluntary basis - particularly if their database can cope with doing it easily!  Some of the smaller PIO's have to supply info to NED manually - it costs!

And if there is one PIO, probably a company run for profit, why should the Breed Societies supply it with data??  Many of the smaller Breed Societies have limited or no staff and are reliant on volunteers.


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## Rollin (2 February 2011)

Janet, no one was more cynical than me of the French system. Not any more.

As my Uk breed society could not reach an agreement with Haras Nationaux, with much regret, I registered my part-bred filly with AES this cost 42 euros to HN and 12 euros to AES.

What did i get?

Full passport and a separate ownership document - no keeper can sell my horse

Stud book registration

Competition in any French Class without registering again

Registration on a great database

Money received by HN is used to reward the best breeders each year

Also when the Merens numbers in France reached critically low levels a programme was put in place to save the breed.

Last year only 32 pure-bred Cleveland bays were born and registered worldwide I think are oldest and rarest breed teeters on the brink.  Passport income for 32 neds won't save the breed.  A National Stud such as France has would have taken action.

One PIO will bring economies of scale and instead of fighting it Breed Societies should fight for money to be used to support British Breeding.


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## JanetGeorge (2 February 2011)

Rollin said:



			One PIO will bring economies of scale and instead of fighting it Breed Societies should fight for money to be used to support British Breeding.
		
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We might NOT fight it - IF the one PIO is 'owned' by the Breed Societies and Equestrian organisations, rather than a 'for profit' company!

No-one would disagree that the existing system is a mess - but it's Defra's mess!  Defra's incompetence in implementing passports gave us the ridiculous situation we've got and we HAVE to fight Defra to prevent a new system being rushed in, without proper consultation, just because Defra wants (needs) to trim its budget!

The fact that Defra postponed the 'consultation' meeting at the first sign that the horse world was going to fight it, suggests very strongly that Defra hadn't considered this possibility, nor had they considered a number of important issues that HAVE to be resolved in advance of any change.


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## KarynK (2 February 2011)

Rollin said:



			I would like to go onto NED and find that my filly's parentage is registered as opposed to 'not supplied by  PIO' and she is shown as not born in France but in USA!!!!  as supplied by PIO.
		
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I'd like to go on the NED and find everything I've bred for the past 4 years even named on it!!!

The NED started by blaming the PIO, when I got the information that this was not in fact true they made all sorts of promises and said they were working with the PIO (also not true) then they resorted to ignoring any attempts to contact them and I am not alone, nor is this problem with one PIO!!

I have no confidence in the NED and cannot see a two tier system of passport issue and registration working.  If there had been one PIO from the start that might have possibly worked who knows.  But what we now need to do is fix a system that is sort of working and make it what it should be, not start again and hang all the expense on the horse owning community and leave years of confusion ahead in working out what issued what in the aftermath of a complete reorganisation in a hurry.


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## Rollin (3 February 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			We might NOT fight it - IF the one PIO is 'owned' by the Breed Societies and Equestrian organisations, rather than a 'for profit' company!

No-one would disagree that the existing system is a mess - but it's Defra's mess!  Defra's incompetence in implementing passports gave us the ridiculous situation we've got and we HAVE to fight Defra to prevent a new system being rushed in, without proper consultation, just because Defra wants (needs) to trim its budget!

The fact that Defra postponed the 'consultation' meeting at the first sign that the horse world was going to fight it, suggests very strongly that Defra hadn't considered this possibility, nor had they considered a number of important issues that HAVE to be resolved in advance of any change.
		
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Here we have some agreement - an NFP that benefitted british breeding would be the ideal.  Have letters to MP's expressed that view?  or are PIO's just bemoaning their loss of passport income and the incompetence of DEFRA?.  Surely the push should be for a NED/BEF such as enjoyed by France and Germany?  A recognition by Govt. that the Equestrian Industry could have been an 'export' earner with a little more foresight.

In fact most of the warmbloods in Europe were 'improved' by the Best of British and now we Brits buy them back!!


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