# Waterford Gag and flash doesnt work what next..........



## Stacie_and_Jed (24 October 2012)

I am struggling with a bit for my big boy when out hunting or XC. He is a Warmblood X Cob and is bulit as it says on the tin for this type! I currently ride in a waterford gag on the 2nd ring with a flash but i went out Saturday and he was ridiculously strong and he ended up with a sore on the side of his mouth where the bit rubbed because me and him were both hauling at it all morning!

I ride in a loose ring sweet iron snaffle for schooling/dressage and hack in a happy mouth gag (sometimes the snaffle if its a hot day or he has a belly full of grass) but i just cant seem to find something for hunting and XC that he cant pi$$ off with me in  

Im reluctant to put him in anything stonger and end up with a horse with a dead mouth!

HEEELLLPPP!!!

x


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## Posie (24 October 2012)

If you've tried all the schooling exercises etc, a tom thumb with dr bristol mouthpiece worked wonders on one of mine, the other i found a ported kimblewick with slotted cheeks to do the job. Vaseline the mouth before you bit up!


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## kirstykate (24 October 2012)

How about a Dutch Gag and a Grackle.


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## chestnut cob (24 October 2012)

Agree about Vaseline.  Try the bottom ring of your gag too - my big horse is like a train but I can stop him in that.

Also, don't pull until you have to.  What happens if you actually let him go once they are galloping and only pull / try to slow up when you need to?  If I pull on mine all the time it just ends in a battle or a tantrum from him.  I have to let him go when they're moving and with the gag on bottom rein I know I can pull up when I need to.  I also use bit guards which seems to help.

Could try a grackle too though I prefer a flash for mine.

You could try a pelham (sometimes hunt mine in pelham with 2 reins - it's easier than you'd think once you get used to it), a Myler long shank combination, a Cheltenham gag (can you get a CG with something like a waterford mouthpiece?).  I wouldn't worry about the dead mouth - you'll get that if you haul on him constantly but if you use something v strong that you know you can stop in then you shouldn't need to use it all of the time.  FWIW, mine hunts in a waterford gag but schools, hacks and fun rides in a French link.  He has a lovely mouth away from the hunting field!!


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## tls (24 October 2012)

Try a waterford nelson gag with a grackle, its the only thing that will hold my big lad!


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## Stacie_and_Jed (24 October 2012)

kirstykate said:



			How about a Dutch Gag and a Grackle.

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Sorry i didnt make it clear in my first post, he is in a dutch gag with waterford mouth piece. I used to ride in a grackle years ago but it didnt make much difference as he doesnt cross his jaw he just runs


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## Stacie_and_Jed (24 October 2012)

Thanks Posie & Chestnut ill definately use vaseline - i hadnt thought of that.

Chestnut if i didnt haul at him he'd be infront of the Master before i knew it haha! He hates being behind and constantly tries to get ahead I do give him his head when i feel i can but as soon as he realises he has it he's in the next county if i dont have time to catch him! He loves hunting and gets very enthusiastic when were on the move. 

I think ill get on the bit bank and order a CG and a Tom Thumb/Dr Bristol and see how i get on with those 

Thank you for your suggestions - i will be sure to report back

x


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## chestnut cob (24 October 2012)

Only one comment about a Dr Bristol... I tried my big horse in one for hunting once... we overtook EVERYONE and got a real telling off (I had absolutely no brakes whatsoever!).  I hunt my little horse (15hh Connie x type) in one - he goes in a Happy Mouth FL normally, which I have also hunted him int but he just needs a tiny bit more than a plain snaffle.


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## Stacie_and_Jed (24 October 2012)

chestnut cob said:



			Only one comment about a Dr Bristol... I tried my big horse in one for hunting once... we overtook EVERYONE and got a real telling off (I had absolutely no brakes whatsoever!).  I hunt my little horse (15hh Connie x type) in one - he goes in a Happy Mouth FL normally, which I have also hunted him int but he just needs a tiny bit more than a plain snaffle.
		
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Mmm perhaps i wont try that then haha! Perhaps the CG is the way forward. A friend of mine has a Jumpers Neue Schule Jumpers bit which i was going to try. They come with a waterford mouthpiece too.......


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## Jools1234 (24 October 2012)

i would be tempted to try a hackamore if he is usually soft in his mouth when your doing other stuff


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## kirstykate (24 October 2012)

What about an American Gag, alot more leverage?


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## spotty_pony (24 October 2012)

Have you tried using bit guards with the current bit? Does he actually open his mouth? One of my boys has a large tongue and is actually STRONGER with a flash noseband as he finds it uncomfortable! He is much better without the flash.


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## SammyLuff (25 October 2012)

Another for Cheltenham gag


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## Stacie_and_Jed (25 October 2012)

spottypony said:



			Have you tried using bit guards with the current bit? Does he actually open his mouth? One of my boys has a large tongue and is actually STRONGER with a flash noseband as he finds it uncomfortable! He is much better without the flash.
		
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He opens his mouth and gets his tongue over the bit with no flash


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## Stacie_and_Jed (25 October 2012)

jools1234 said:



			i would be tempted to try a hackamore if he is usually soft in his mouth when your doing other stuff
		
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Very interesting you say that. I saw a fizzy chunky pony out with a hackamore and wondered if it would be affective.......


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## Stacie_and_Jed (25 October 2012)

Stacie_and_Jed said:



			Very interesting you say that. I saw a fizzy chunky pony out with a hackamore and wondered if it would be affective.......
		
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Or effective!!


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## Sunshine8 (25 October 2012)

I am sure you have tried this but how about giving and taking ie intermittent contact as usually a solid contact will just result in the horse setting its mouth/neck against you

Also smile - I find it helps or at least you look like you are enjoying it! I used to do that showing. The stronger the horse got the bigger the grin


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## KatB (25 October 2012)

Put a back strap on the top ring of the gag. A spur strap or flash strap will do the job, and I find that works very effectively for adding to the brakes and taking pressure off the mouth.


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## Bubbles (25 October 2012)

KatB said:



			Put a back strap on the top ring of the gag. A spur strap or flash strap will do the job, and I find that works very effectively for adding to the brakes and taking pressure off the mouth.
		
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^^ what she said. I tried this and suddenly I had a horse that was controllable, but he really really didn't like it


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## Harry44 (25 October 2012)

I went from a Waterford Gag and flash which did nothing to a Cheltenham gag and grackle that was really good - hope you find something that works otherwise it's no fun! x


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## Archiepoo (25 October 2012)

cheltenham gag !!


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## Jnhuk (26 October 2012)

SammyLuff said:



			Another for Cheltenham gag
		
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ditto


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## tractor (26 October 2012)

Another vote for a Cheltenham! It's the only thing that gives me any control at all. Also agree with the flah comments, I find it's easier to let them open their mouths a bit occasionally than to have them fighting a flash all the time....

Also, this can be scary but it's worth doing - try to work out where he's running TO - I have a 16.3hh cob, he's hunted for 12 years - he knows the job inside out but it was only a few years ago that I realised that his pulling out hunting all related to where I was in the field. He's generally frightened of things behind him, and is worse when he's right at the back. He is better in the middle or near the front - he pulls less. I guess what I'm trying to say is dont just think "I can't stop" - think "why can't I stop" - I find that if I relax and don't think too much then he stops anyway. 

Confusingly, he doesn't pull when out on point or totally on his own somewhere....


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## RunToEarth (28 October 2012)

I have a Cheltenham gag with a Waterford mouthpiece, it changed my life! Try and borrow one before you buy as they're quite expensive. I don't like Dutch or American because they have such a restricted action. 

Also, if he has a sore mouth piles cream is good to shrink cuts


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## Roasted Chestnuts (30 October 2012)

I'd look at a tomthumb, a cheltenham or a myler combo. The combo stopped my mare in her tracks and she was a tanker!! Works on the nose, has a curb and the mouth.

Pony doesn't need anything other than a snaffle at this point in time but the above three would be what I would try for a strong horse


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## Kiristamm (30 October 2012)

Posie said:



			i found a ported kimblewick with slotted cheeks to do the job.
		
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I second this, I had a very strong horse and he responded very well in this bit. It was the bit he was most respectfull of.


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## immoralorchid (1 November 2012)

I only dare take my nutty grey out in a double bridle with a running martingale so I can use the curb when needed but have the snaffle


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## Goldenstar (1 November 2012)

Have you tried a controller noseband ?


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## *RedRaider* (6 November 2012)

Cheltenham gag? I hunt my very stong welsh D in one and it works quite well and wasn't overly sharp which I thought it would be because he does (when he chooses to) have a soft mouth.


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## thundermacd (7 November 2012)

Stacie_and_Jed said:



			Or effective!! 

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Or you might carted into next week!!


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## Luci07 (8 November 2012)

Just another idea. My old mare was also a nightmare so I would stick her to the side of the field whenever I could. Nothing in front but still behind master and hounds. Would give me a break too!


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