# Equine Rescue France is formed!



## Sherman (3 September 2007)

After all the interest in the horses we have been able to rescue &amp; rehome to date, we are extremely pleased to announce the arrival of Equine Rescue France a newly registered not- for- profit association based in France. 
Our aims are to alleviate the suffering of equines that have been abandoned, mistreated or are destined for the abattoir through facilitating their rescue, rehabilitation and re-homing. Where we cannot act, we will inform the relevant authorities of equine mistreatment and, where possible, pursue justice. Furthermore, by supporting recognised organisations in other E.U countries we will campaign for improvements to existing legislation on transportation of live equines to ensure that they are protected from cruelty &amp; neglect. 

We are extremely lucky to have a very motivated team of experts working with us to create ERF so please help us to help these needy equines by visiting our website www.equinerescuefrance.org where you can find out more and join our efforts by becoming a member. 

If you have any questions, please dont hesitate to contact me on here or alternatively contact us on our site.


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## JM07 (3 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]

please help us to help these needy equines by visiting our website www.equinerescuefrance.org where you can find out more and join our efforts by becoming a member. 

If you have any questions, please dont hesitate to contact me on here or alternatively contact us on our site. 

[/ QUOTE ]


how do you "rescue" these horses?

do you buy them from the meatman to "rescue"them??


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## ISHmad (3 September 2007)

Isn't buying a horse from a meatman rescuing them then RHT?


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## JM07 (3 September 2007)

no at all...it's giving the meatman money to supply more misery to the misguided....


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## Sherman (3 September 2007)

That's just a small part of what we are doing though, please read our website!


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## ISHmad (3 September 2007)

?  I'm being a bit thick tonight I think.  If you buy a horse from a meatman which is going to be slaughtered otherwise, how is that not rescuing a horse?

I'm not being facetious BTW, just genuinely interested in the thinking behind your post.

And I know it's not very PC, as saving a horse is saving a horse, but why are people focusing on horses abroad when there are so many here who need saving?


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## JM07 (3 September 2007)

i have....

and i stand by my previous reply....


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## the watcher (3 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]

That's just a small part of what we are doing though, please read our website! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Having read the website, I don't see that anything other than buying horses destined for meat has been achieved or is in the pipeline


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## the watcher (3 September 2007)

Presumably because that is where they live.

Yes, purchasing a horse that was destined for the meatman might be saving that individual horse, although that is a moot point, there is no way of knowing what long term quality of life these horses may have. But it doesn't address the issue of long distance travel on the hoof which is an issue that could do with the work of a group of firm minded people in countries such as France


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## ISHmad (3 September 2007)

I definitely agree with you regarding the long distance travel of live horses The Watcher.  And hope that something can be done, as the conditions sound barbaric.


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## JM07 (3 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
?  I'm being a bit thick tonight I think.  If you buy a horse from a meatman which is going to be slaughtered otherwise, how is that not rescuing a horse?

I'm not being facetious BTW, just genuinely interested in the thinking behind your post.

And I know it's not very PC, as saving a horse is saving a horse, but why are people focusing on horses abroad when there are so many here who need saving? 

[/ QUOTE ]

you're not being thick at all....

look at it this way...

meatman has £20 to spend on crappy meat horses...buys 4 for £5 each...silly misguided "do-gooders" come along..."awww, poor horsey, it's SO skinny and unloved poor thing is off to the abbatoir...what can i do"??...." i know i'll "RESCUE" it!!!...says to meatman..how much??

he thinks.."ooh, i've got a right mug here....so says £20"...mis-guided do-gooder thinks.."oo, i can "save "this poor thing..i'll buy it"!.....

meatman makes major profit so he can buy and sell more misery!

easy maths really....the only winner is the meatman....

DON'T DO IT...........

there will always be traders in horsemeat, wether we "english" like it or not, if you feel the need to give equines a better transit to the abbatoir, then support the ILPH, and forget about so called "rescue" operations.....as in the long run, they ACTUALLY fuel the meat trade with their misguided "rescue" centres.


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## Donkeymad (3 September 2007)

RHT, thankyou. I thought I was the only person to see it this way. I too believe we are simply fuelling the trade . There will always be more horses to replace the ones 'rescued'.

I also agree with The_Watcher, we are not addressing the transportation issues by simply buying up these specific animals.


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## Skhosu (3 September 2007)

IS this not the same thing as previously? And I do believe it is advertising. But anyway.
I agree with RHT


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## Tia (3 September 2007)

I thought it looked like a new and revised edition of the same people aswell Triple.

I also agree wholeheartedly with RHT.


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## Happy Horse (4 September 2007)

I agree with RHT totally about rescuing animals that are destined for slaughter from the meatman.  I think that rehoming the mushroom farm horses is slightly different as they appear to be healthy horses that are just out of a job.


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## ISHmad (4 September 2007)

Thanks for that RHT, I hadn't even had a drink last night, so can't use that as an excuse!  

But of course it is the supply and demand scenario, isn't it.

I already support the ILPH and Brooke Hospital, amongst other animal charities, and agree that it needs the impact of experienced campaigners like that to end the horror of live travel.  We also will never stop people eating horse meat, just the same as many of us (myself included) eat other meat.  

Thanks again RHT


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## JM07 (4 September 2007)

i too, support the ILPH.

they are even in my will....(that'll please the kids LOL)

ithey are doing a good job over in europe..the figures speak for themselves as far as live transport is concerned..the numbers of animals from the former eastern bloc has dropped considerably due to fact that campaining for better transport/water and feed stops/overnight stops etc is beginning to make on the hoof transport less lucratve...

unfortunately, spain and france have jumped on the bandwagon because their timescale to get these animals to italy is much shorter, so they have upped the numbers arriving from those countries..

things are getting better but i for one will continue to support the ILPH to make sure the "On the hook not on the hoof" campaign is brought to fruition.

going off half-cock clouds the issue...these well meaning folk would do FAR better to give their money to the ILPH to further their campaign to ACTUALLY get things done through the powers that be over in europe.

sorry for the waffle...gets off soapbox!!


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## brighteyes (4 September 2007)

_*climbs onto vacant soapbox*_ 

And most of the surplus horses in countries who don't breed for meat are due to folks breeding for the sake of it.  Go into the Breeders Forum.  It's full of them.

"I just feel like having a foal from my mare which has gone lame aged only five.  Which stallion do you recommend?"  

Arghhhhhhh.  A bloody hysterectomy is what I recommend.

I am the British wing of the Fugly Horse Blog.

I have two very nice, even-tempered mares with good conformation and some jumping talent they quite possibly could pass on.  Will I breed from them?  NEVER!  

The world (never mind France and Great Britain) is flooded with crappy animals - and if you use Olympic jumpers and dressage horses as your yardstick, then that includes mine.  Stop bloody adding to the numbers just because you want a 'baby 'Flossie''.  You might, but when it arrives with every bad trait from both parents, no bugger else will.  Then what are you going to do with it?  Of course!!! Send it to Italy for sandwiches and hope someone 'rescues' it.  Oooooh, they might even breed from it, too.

_* steps down from soapbox before she really gets going*_


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## Tia (4 September 2007)

_*Applauds*_


Absolutely 100% agree with you BE.


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## Fairynuff (4 September 2007)

this bunch 'hung' me when I did the same calculations using 'potatoes' instead of horses! I used potatoes thinking that they would be less 'heating' but...I w 
	
	
		
		
	


	




as wrong. You are correct 100 per cent IMHO. Mairi.


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## Fairynuff (4 September 2007)

I was shot down in flames when I replied, as you have done,  to posts of the same sort.  Please, not ALL come to Italy 
	
	
		
		
	


	




! Did you know that the Swiss eat a good deal of horse meat (home grown though)?
I support.. ON THE HOOK AND NOT THE HOOF!!!!!


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## Sherman (4 September 2007)

"Could I first point out that saving a few selected horses from the butcher is such a very small part of Equine Rescue France. In fact the horse I personally saved was NOT a skinny thing and I can also state I was NOT OMG must save her no matter what she looks like!! She is actually an 8yr old Percheron Mare that has peviously done driving and concours unfortuntely we don't know why she ended up at the 'fat farm' in dept 41 however she did! Our long term goals are to help educate the younger generation here in France to make sure that improvements can be made to horse care and management for the next generation...after all,France is how the UK was about 50 years ago when it comes to equine welfare so education is key.We wholeheartedly support the ILPH camapaign on 'hook not hoof' transportation and hope to work with them here in France surveying the transport welfare issues to the abattoirs.

Our website is still under construction  but there is already information available on there as to who we are...we are not horse dealers,we are a non profit making association registered here in France helping equines in France.

If any equines are saved from slaughter in the short term through us we will do all we can to research to who and where this equine is going.After all it would be a pretty pointless exercise for horses to end up in the wrong hands and go back to a similar fate.

As with any new association we are willing to listen to your views and we hope you can work with us,not against us to help improve conditions for horses where ever they live in the world."

Thank you for taking the time to read this.


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## Tia (4 September 2007)

If education is really what you are hoping to do with your company, then that has always to be commended....however, as you pointed out it appears to be the French who need this education, therefore why is your site written in English and why are you advertising your horses to British people?

Surely if these horses have had horrendous journey throughout Europe then the last thing they need is to be shipped for yet another day or two to yet another country?

It really doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever, unless there is a profit at the end of it.  Britain (like Canada) has enough of it's own rescue horses; I doubt any other country needs any more.


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## Donkeymad (4 September 2007)

Agree with you Tia


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## brighteyes (4 September 2007)

Sorry Mairi, I completely forgot your whereabouts  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 and wasn't meaning to be offensive.  Swap Italy for any European or worldwide horsemunching nation.  I do hope you forgive me!

I actually can't argue over eating meat as long as the rearing process is correct for the livestock concerned in terms of welfare and the end is as humane as possible.  There really is no need for cruelty or shortcuts in this business, and in a perfect world there should be no desperate cases wanting a rescue outfit dashing to their aid.  Sadly, the world is not perfect.

Tia - a vote of confidence indeed!  Thankies  
	
	
		
		
	


	





RHT - ta for the loan of your soapbox - you may have it back now!!!


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## JM07 (4 September 2007)

thanks brighteyes...

mairi is cool..she has done her own bit in Italy....it's just easy for "us" to say that country for recipient slaughter equines is Italy as "there" seems to be the most highlighted...ATM....

but believe me, mairi is very well informed.......


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## brighteyes (4 September 2007)

Aye, me 'n' Mairi aren't at loggerheads.  
	
	
		
		
	


	








 She survives somehow in that vetless wilderness, where they hunt anything and everything, and always has good advice and a cheery smile.  Nice that she pops her head in every now and again.  I don't recall she has ever upset anyone - though she holds her own in the hunting forum


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## severnmiles (4 September 2007)

See I agree with RHT with regards to not fueling this - wouldn't suprise me if the hole thing has been set up by a clever meat man.

BUT just because a friend of mine started breeding from a Never So Bold mare who as a yearling injured herself so badly she would never be ridden let alone race he should never have bred from it?  Regardless of the fact its produced two daughters who between then have produced a pavo yearling champion and reserve supreme, cardigan hunter champion, tivyside sport horse champion, two pembrokeshire sport horse champions, a 7y.o intermediate eventer (whose 4* rider think is a Badminton horse) a 5y.o welsh part bred who Robert Walker is asking where its come from because it won't stop winning and a 6y.o novice eventer, grade C showjumper and 7th 5y.o pavo finals.

And to think, he's really adding to the problem of this overhorsed world!.


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## carthorse (4 September 2007)

Why do people think they are saving an animal ,NO another animal dies, that's all and someone makes money out of it. I know someone who has fallen for this and paid £2,000 for one and is saving up to buy another. I'm sorry I have worked for charities .I've seen people set up charities and pay themselves a very good wage.Someone is making a lot of money out of kind misguided people


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## Dobsie (5 September 2007)

As I am one of the ERF founders, much as I love a good healthy debate, I have to admit to simply wanting to comment on a couple of points raised:

1. The website is currently only in English because we wanted to get it up and running quickly. It is a temporary one that I have knocked up to explain a little about ourselves. We have a volunteer designing a more professional website which will of course be in both French and English and we do already have both French and English members (there are many Brits living in France now). One of our French members is working on the translation for us. However, it is a good point to raise as I should explain the lack of French on the website and will amend it this morning - thanks.

2. We are a not-for-profit association, having deposited our statutes with the legal bodies in France. This is different to a charity and we do not portray ourselves as a charity anywhere. However, we do have an open book accounting system which clearly shows where all monies raised are apportioned (in fact, it is a law in France, that associations deposit their P&amp;Ls for scrutiny). We will at times have to pay for professional services - we will be using the skills of local vets, farriers, notaires etc. All the work of the bureau has to be voluntary and free, we cannot be employed by the association - again this is a legal requirement in France. 

As an aside, yes Carthorse, I agree that some people probably earn good wages working for charities. But this generalisation cannot be used to damn all the good charities out there as I think we all agree many bodies, such as ILPH, are doing sterling work. 

I hope that this clarifies the situation. We are all passionate about the welfare of equines both in the short term and longer term, and improving this is our overall aim.


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## severnmiles (5 September 2007)

Now the ILPH would be the first that I'd say 'lives off' the so called charity.


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## nuffield (6 September 2007)

I support the ILPH "Hook not Hoof" campaign. I also applaud those people buying any horse destined for meat and giving it a loving home.


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## ISHmad (6 September 2007)

Saw on another forum that one of the horses rescued is already up for re-homing as the owner can't keep it.  And there is an Appeal running to raise funds for the transportation over here of another one.  Then there is someone else who paid for some on a credit card which was meant to be reimbursed by donations and that hasn't happened either.

The ILPH campaign "Hook Not Hoof" seems a far more sensible, structured and well funded approach.


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## Tia (6 September 2007)

That's even more sad ..... however VERY predictable!  Daft people who let their hearts rule their heads.

Stick to donating to a major charity such as ILPH has always been my advice.


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## JM07 (6 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Saw on another forum that one of the horses rescued is already up for re-homing as the owner can't keep it.  And there is an Appeal running to raise funds for the transportation over here of another one.  Then there is someone else who paid for some on a credit card which was meant to be reimbursed by donations and that hasn't happened either.

The ILPH campaign "Hook Not Hoof" seems a far more sensible, structured and well funded approach. 

[/ QUOTE ]


oh what a surprise!!!!

bloody laughable.......


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## blueberry (7 September 2007)

I would like to say that we bought/saved a French rescue horse from department 86. We gave it much thought-serious thought at that. I asked myself many questions 'are we offering an easy sale for the 'meat man' and helping to keep him in business? 'what difference will it make?' 'we already have 5 horses-do we need another one?
I don't consider myself a do-gooder or foolish-i think some people are missing the point and are not seeing the bigger picture. 
I have an equestrian shop in lancs, one of our customers sent me an e-mail asking for help, she sent me a link to www.equinesection.com where i read about the plight of the french horses in the fattening fields facing live export. I was sickened and saddened at the barbaric treatment of these unfortunate horses who suffer the long journey to slaughter houses in italy. 
As a family we felt we could and should do something. We offered to buy one of the horses with the help of a very dedicated team of volunteers who liased with us and the farmer who was selling the horse.
We did not know which one we were buying at this point but soon discovered that it was an 18 month old percheron colt. He was weighed on a weigh bridge and we paid the meat price per Kilo and costs of his transport-in total approx £1,100.
We purchased him with no expectations-then everything else is a bonus! 
Our intention has been to: 
firstly, save Sultan from enduring a horrific journey of several days to the slaughterhouse (he was due to go in august)
secondly;offer a safe, loving and understanding home to a horse.
Thirdly and most importantly: to raise awareness to the campaign and the plight of horses facing live export. 
On sultan's arrival we contacted our local paper, they did a feature on him and has advertised the website where there is a link to the petition against live export. Many customers have asked about him and the campaign-great! peoples awareness are being raised!
Here is the point and where the difference is being made and all because i allowed myself  to open my mind and see the bigger picture. OF course not everyone can do this, we are fortunate to have our own small yard and consider ourselves eperienced enough to cope with a possible difficult and complex youngster.
Sultan has been with us now for 16 days. He is an absolute sweetheart with a lovely gentle nature who enjoys being groomed and fussed. He does have some  problems due to  being 'fattened' and neglected feet but nothing unmanageable. I feel fortunate that we have had the opportunity to save him and there is no better feeling that when he sees us approach him, wether to the stable or in the field, he greets us with a soft whinney-what more can i say. [image]christineparents1 380[/image]


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## JM07 (7 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to say that we bought/saved a French rescue horse from department 86. We gave it much thought-serious thought at that. I asked myself many questions 'are we offering an easy sale for the 'meat man' and helping to keep him in business? 'what difference will it make?' 'we already have 5 horses-do we need another one?
I don't consider myself a do-gooder or foolish-i think some people are missing the point and are not seeing the bigger picture. 
I have an equestrian shop in lancs, one of our customers sent me an e-mail asking for help, she sent me a link to www.equinesection.com where i read about the plight of the french horses in the fattening fields facing live export. I was sickened and saddened at the barbaric treatment of these unfortunate horses who suffer the long journey to slaughter houses in italy. 
As a family we felt we could and should do something. We offered to buy one of the horses with the help of a very dedicated team of volunteers who liased with us and the farmer who was selling the horse.
We did not know which one we were buying at this point but soon discovered that it was an 18 month old percheron colt. He was weighed on a weigh bridge and we paid the meat price per Kilo and costs of his transport-in total approx £1,100.
We purchased him with no expectations-then everything else is a bonus! 
Our intention has been to: 
firstly, save Sultan from enduring a horrific journey of several days to the slaughterhouse (he was due to go in august)
secondly;offer a safe, loving and understanding home to a horse.
Thirdly and most importantly: to raise awareness to the campaign and the plight of horses facing live export. 
On sultan's arrival we contacted our local paper, they did a feature on him and has advertised the website where there is a link to the petition against live export. Many customers have asked about him and the campaign-great! peoples awareness are being raised!
Here is the point and where the difference is being made and all because i allowed myself  to open my mind and see the bigger picture. OF course not everyone can do this, we are fortunate to have our own small yard and consider ourselves eperienced enough to cope with a possible difficult and complex youngster.
Sultan has been with us now for 16 days. He is an absolute sweetheart with a lovely gentle nature who enjoys being groomed and fussed. He does have some  problems due to  being 'fattened' and neglected feet but nothing unmanageable. I feel fortunate that we have had the opportunity to save him and there is no better feeling that when he sees us approach him, wether to the stable or in the field, he greets us with a soft whinney-what more can i say. [image]christineparents1 380[/image] 

[/ QUOTE ]


what happened to Sultan's "lorry-mates"??



















how do you feel now, eh??


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## blueberry (8 September 2007)

Sultan's 'lorry mates' were also rescued. The volunteers of french rescue displayed their pics on the danger list and individuals like myself bought them-for meat price. Before anyone knew about these particular horses 30 of them had already been sent to italy so unfortunately it was too  late for them. 
The volunteers involved in this work tirelessly and i strongly commend their efforts. 
I would like to add that my personal issue is not with the using of horses for meat although it does not sit comfortably with me. My issue is the with the live export of horses for meat. The treatment and suffering of these horses is not acceptable and the whole point is to try to stop it, in which ever way possible and using whichever medium possible. There is no right or wrong in which individual, group or organisation is best to do something about it so long as someone does.
All horses deserve to be treated with respect and consideration, wether a grade a showjumper or a horse on his way to the slaughterhouse.
You ask how i feel now-it what aspect do you inquire??
How i feel saving one horse from a degree of pain and suffering or how i feel about ones that havent been saved??
please clarify.


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## S_N (8 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
See I agree with RHT with regards to not fueling this - wouldn't suprise me if the hole thing has been set up by a clever meat man.

BUT just because a friend of mine started breeding from a Never So Bold mare who as a yearling injured herself so badly she would never be ridden let alone race he should never have bred from it?  Regardless of the fact its produced two daughters who between then have produced a pavo yearling champion and reserve supreme, cardigan hunter champion, tivyside sport horse champion, two pembrokeshire sport horse champions, a 7y.o intermediate eventer (whose 4* rider think is a Badminton horse) a 5y.o welsh part bred who Robert Walker is asking where its come from because it won't stop winning and a 6y.o novice eventer, grade C showjumper and 7th 5y.o pavo finals.

And to think, he's really adding to the problem of this overhorsed world!. 

[/ QUOTE ]

*Claps loudly*


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## S_N (8 September 2007)

I completely see it the same way RHT (it's not natural to call you that BTW).


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## S_N (8 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
And most of the surplus horses in countries who don't breed for meat are due to folks breeding for the sake of it.  Go into the Breeders Forum.  It's full of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

What an incredibly sweeping and ungenerous statement!!


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## JM07 (8 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I completely see it the same way RHT (it's not natural to call you that BTW). 

[/ QUOTE ]

i'll ask the nice people in the office on monday to see if i'm allowed to change it!!!


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## Onyxia (8 September 2007)

The "bigger picture" is that the product is in demand and that demand WILL be met.
If you are happy with your lad I'm not going to have a go at you about how you got him, but there WILL have been another horse sent in his place,so nothing was achived except to pay the meat man twice.

Everyone on here loves horses.
Not one of us wants to see live transport or any animal  forced to endure the conditins the horses are.
Buying from the meat man to "rescue" them is not the answer- put your money into ILPH's "hock not hoof" it can go to help ALL the horses destined for this fate then,not just one.


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## blueberry (8 September 2007)

The bigger picture for me is that until i went onto www.equinesection.com i was not fully aware of the plight of horses suffering live export. Of course i knew it went on but i chose not to look into it in any depth but ignorance is blis and all that. 
What the website did for me was to inform me and bring the reality into my home-i then felt a responsibilty to do something.
 As i have an equestrian shop i felt i was in a position to reach more people. My aim was raise more awareness as mine had been raised-and this is what i chose to do. 
We sought publicity as soon as our new boy arrived (not for my shop but for the ILPH campaign) and the website was advertised which linked people to the government petition against live export. We urged people to sign this petition because it costs nothing but their time! I think i had the insight to see the bigger picture. I talk about Sultan and about live export daily and to many people. He offers the medium for this to happen, people are interested and they ask.
For the interest of those who would like to know, the department where Sultan came from has not re-filled and will not be doing. He was owned by a mushroom farmer who kept him and many horses in small pens so to collect manure for his mushrooms! He decided to close down and sell his horses to the meat man and sultan was booked to travel to italy in august until we intervened and bought him. 
Has everyone on here signed the petition?? Has anyone ever thought of doing that little bit more or are you all prepared to sit on your chairs and critisize those who are prepared to go that bit further to make a difference and maybe think outside the box. I have a longterm commitment to this campaign, both financially, emotionally and practically.


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## blueberry (8 September 2007)

PS i want to put some pics on-can some kind person explain to me how i can do it.


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## dieseldog (8 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
PS i want to put some pics on-can some kind person explain to me how i can do it. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Go to the Picture Gallery and one of the sticky posts at the top gives very good instructions


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## Tia (8 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 Has everyone on here signed the petition?? 

[/ QUOTE ] 
Oh I would imagine probably every single member on HHO has signed this VERY well known petition.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





And I expect there are many many people on here who donate to the ILPH, so you can be rest-assured that most don't just sit in their armchairs and critise.


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## brighteyes (8 September 2007)

But sadly all too often true.


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## S_N (8 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
But sadly all too often true.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Yes and no!!!  There are a lot of pro's and pro am's in the Breeding Section of this forum - people who know what they are doing!!


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## S_N (8 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I completely see it the same way RHT (it's not natural to call you that BTW). 

[/ QUOTE ]

i'll ask the nice people in the office on monday to see if i'm allowed to change it!!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

GOOD!!!!!


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## blueberry (8 September 2007)

thats a comfort and im sure they don't.


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## blueberry (8 September 2007)

many thanks-i may sound dopey now but i can't find the picture gallery? :


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## JM07 (8 September 2007)

have signed...and the ILPH will be substantial benefactors of my will......


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## blueberry (9 September 2007)

Commendable!

I would like to mention that the person earlier mentioned as giving up her rescued horse is a young lady who works at our yard. She had saved money to purchase a youngster to buy with the view of selling on. She decided to chance it and put her money into a french rescuepony. She bought/saved a blanket spot colt-18 months for a reasonable price. He has been gelded now and someone is very interested in buying him who will give him a lovely home. So she achieved her goal but has had the benefit that her money was also well spent on giving a life to an otherwise unfortunate pony. However,she was lucky- of course have been different! Not all of these horses will be re-sellable.


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## blueberry (10 September 2007)

dare i say that there is a saying that comes to mind when i read some of the comments on this unfriendly forum.
'preaching to the ignorant'

the forum on www.equinesection.com offers support from like minded individuals. everyone is entitled to their opinion but my goodness (with some exceptions of course)what a bunch of moaners!!


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## Onyxia (10 September 2007)

I dont think we are a "bunch of moaners" at all- just that most of us belive any money we have to donate to this cause is better spent via someone like the ILPH who can help change things for ALL horses sent for slaughter,not just one.

One perosn buying one horse destined for slaughter helps that animal, hundreds of people donating money to the ILPH who can lobby and campaign the Govt. in the countries concerned can change things for all of them.


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## peter1959 (10 September 2007)

Talk about only seeing past your own nose.  Oh it happens over there so it doesnt affect me? 

 What if we were talking about people?. Should we only have one cancer charity or only donate to people in a certain country for example 

I'm sure the ILPH had to start off from somewhere so why not give others a chance!


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## ISHmad (10 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Commendable!

I would like to mention that the person earlier mentioned as giving up her rescued horse is a young lady who works at our yard. She had saved money to purchase a youngster to buy with the view of selling on. She decided to chance it and put her money into a french rescuepony. She bought/saved a blanket spot colt-18 months for a reasonable price. He has been gelded now and someone is very interested in buying him who will give him a lovely home. So she achieved her goal but has had the benefit that her money was also well spent on giving a life to an otherwise unfortunate pony. However,she was lucky- of course have been different! Not all of these horses will be re-sellable. 

[/ QUOTE ]

What an utter load of rubbish!  The mare ***note*** mare is called Roxanne and is chestnut with a flaxen mane and tail.  So before you start calling people on her old moaners and the like have the courtesy and decency to tell the truth!!!  And someone selling on a youngster just reinforces the other comments about this being some kind of dealer set up.  It does nothing for your cause that's for sure.

ILPH for me all the way.


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## Onyxia (10 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 Talk about only seeing past your own nose.  Oh it happens over there so it doesnt affect me? 

[/ QUOTE ]
Have you even bothered to read this thread or did you just sim the parts you liked the look of? 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[ QUOTE ]
 What if we were talking about people?. Should we only have one cancer charity or only donate to people in a certain country for example 

[/ QUOTE ]
What point are you trying to make here?
We are not talking about research into illness.
 Horses are an animal like any other,in some places they are food.
As long as they are raised well and killed humanly what does it matter if it is distastefull to you that its a horse not a cow/pig/sheep we are talking about?


[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure the ILPH had to start off from somewhere so why not give others a chance! 

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course they did but like everyone else I have bills to pay and other financial commitments, only so much spare cash at end of the month.
So yes, I give the money I have to give to charity to the place I think it will do the most good.
In this case, thats the ILPH.


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## peter1959 (10 September 2007)

The point is that that you can have more than one charity relating to certain cause. 

Of course it is up to individuals who to support and how they spend their money. 

Some people have been fairly critical of individulas who have rescued a french horse, at the end of the day it is personal choice whether people support the ILPH,the French rescue or whoever.

I believe one of the main points was to raise awareness of the transportation and obtain signatures for the petiton.

Should any one person tell another what to do/who to support?


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## blueberry (10 September 2007)

Excuse me but i am not in the habit of being called a liar!! 
There is no such thing as a dealer set up. How dare you be so rude! 
The young lady i talked about has left a testimonial on equinesection explaining this and i wanted to clarify her situation. She is a lovely girl from a loving horsey family and keeps her horses at home she has done a good thing forn ill destined pony so i congratulate her.
I for myself neither own a dealer yard-we have 5 horses and  who we show at a high level. We saved a percheron-Sultan from a potentially horrific journey to italy where- if he was lucky-may have been stunned properly before being hung upside down with his throat cut!!!
I have bought him with no gain in mind but with only good intentions!! 
Read everything i have written...
Do you call yourself a good person?? A horse lover??
I doubt your intentions and your intergity!!!
why not visit the equine section forum or the intelligent horsemanship forum you may learn something?


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## ISHmad (10 September 2007)

I tell you what Blueberry YOU visit Intelligent Horsemanship instead - where you might learn something you rude ignorant person.

http://ihdg.proboards91.com/index.cgi?board=area41&amp;action=display&amp;thread=1188856685

Now whose integrity is to be questioned?  I reported the facts, as can be seen on the above link.  What about you?


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## ISHmad (10 September 2007)

Forgot to say that the previous threads about this rescue situation suggested that it was some kind of dealer set up, I have no idea if that is the case or not, but seems strange that a young horse is bought and sold on so quickly.


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## blueberry (10 September 2007)

I do not have anything to prove or disprove!!!! and do not need to spend trying to teach you otherwise, call me what you will-sticks and stones and all that. I think you should get your facts right before you make accusations. 
if you have nothing good to say why bother saying anything at all??
You seem to be  troublesome ? you had a bad day??


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## JM07 (10 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I tell you what Blueberry YOU visit Intelligent Horsemanship instead - where you might learn something you rude ignorant person.

http://ihdg.proboards91.com/index.cgi?board=area41&amp;action=display&amp;thread=1188856685

Now whose integrity is to be questioned?  I reported the facts, as can be seen on the above link.  What about you? 

[/ QUOTE ]

you see that "type" of dobbin regularly at sales...and with that conformation, i think she should have been left where she was "rescued" from........another "do-gooder" could always buy her and breed from her.
now there's a idea!!!???


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## blueberry (10 September 2007)

I will say again www.equinesection.com  testimonials-read if you care to. I do not have anything to prove.
I am ashamed at shocked by peoples attitude. 
NOT GENUINE HORSE LOVERS-CLEARLY!
I apologise now for the exceptions but i am disgusted by the comments that i have read on this subject/forum.
 I guess you were also the school bully?? I will not go quielty or back down, i stand by my beliefs and will shout from the rooftops-
I REST MY CASE-I AM PREACHING TO THE IGNORANT!!!!!!!!!


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## dieseldog (10 September 2007)

OK, I've just gone on your website are you going to bring legal action against us?  Who are the authorities?

_Abusive Persons
By using this site you understand that any abusive persons/organisation found to be threatening staff or the sites reputation will be reported to the authorities. Any person / organisation found tarnishing the rep of the site whether inaccurate info existing on the internet or by personal slander will brings the site into disrepute and the staff personally will be reported to the appropriate authorities where action will follow. Where we agree people / organisations are allowed to have an opinion any accusation that has not been proven in a court of law amounts to slander/libel and will be defended in a law pursuit. Any persons or organisation expressing an opinion should state that this is the opinion of their own judgement and cannot be proven or taken as truthful and that it may not be that of others and state their opinion at their own risk and do not wish to ruin the reputation and support in which Equine section currently receives. 
_


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## blueberry (10 September 2007)

www.equinesection.com is not my website.
I am simply someone who rescued a horse.


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## Sherman (10 September 2007)

Could you all please go back to page one of this thread as somewhere it has got lost that we are a NEW Not-For-Profit Registered Association working in France, our site is www.equinerescuefrance.org and we are not anything to do with others that may have been discussed on this thread.

Thank you


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## blueberry (10 September 2007)

Now i am getting confused-just to clarify-is  equinesection not linked to the website you mentioned?
thanks


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## JM07 (10 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to say that we bought/saved a French rescue horse from department 86. We gave it much thought-serious thought at that. I asked myself many questions 'are we offering an easy sale for the 'meat man' and helping to keep him in business? 'what difference will it make?' 'we already have 5 horses-do we need another one?
I don't consider myself a do-gooder or foolish-i think some people are missing the point and are not seeing the bigger picture. 
I have an equestrian shop in lancs, one of our customers sent me an e-mail asking for help, she sent me a link to www.equinesection.com where i read about the plight of the french horses in the fattening fields facing live export. I was sickened and saddened at the barbaric treatment of these unfortunate horses who suffer the long journey to slaughter houses in italy. 
As a family we felt we could and should do something. We offered to buy one of the horses with the help of a very dedicated team of volunteers who liased with us and the farmer who was selling the horse.
We did not know which one we were buying at this point but soon discovered that it was an 18 month old percheron colt. He was weighed on a weigh bridge and we paid the meat price per Kilo and costs of his transport-in total approx £1,100.
We purchased him with no expectations-then everything else is a bonus! 
Our intention has been to: 
firstly, save Sultan from enduring a horrific journey of several days to the slaughterhouse (he was due to go in august)
secondly;offer a safe, loving and understanding home to a horse.
Thirdly and most importantly: to raise awareness to the campaign and the plight of horses facing live export. 
On sultan's arrival we contacted our local paper, they did a feature on him and has advertised the website where there is a link to the petition against live export. Many customers have asked about him and the campaign-great! peoples awareness are being raised!
Here is the point and where the difference is being made and all because i allowed myself  to open my mind and see the bigger picture. OF course not everyone can do this, we are fortunate to have our own small yard and consider ourselves eperienced enough to cope with a possible difficult and complex youngster.
Sultan has been with us now for 16 days. He is an absolute sweetheart with a lovely gentle nature who enjoys being groomed and fussed. He does have some  problems due to  being 'fattened' and neglected feet but nothing unmanageable. I feel fortunate that we have had the opportunity to save him and there is no better feeling that when he sees us approach him, wether to the stable or in the field, he greets us with a soft whinney-what more can i say. [image]christineparents1 380[/image] 

[/ QUOTE ]

i believe you mentioned it first, bluebottle.......see above


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## peter1959 (10 September 2007)

are you having trouble spelling blueberry or are you just being rude?


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## blueberry (10 September 2007)

I joined this forum to share my experience of rescuing a horse from France and to highlight the campaign against live export. 
I find it sad that i have had the unfortunate experience of having been in contact with a sadly negative group of people who are capable of giving the horse and hound forum a bad name. This is not intelligent debate/discussion but is instead bullying and arrogance.


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## blueberry (10 September 2007)

i thought i was going mad for a moment. www.equinesection.com is associated with the main thread equine rescue france. The horse i saved is on the saved part of equine rescue france and equinesection.


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## Tia (11 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I joined this forum to share my experience of rescuing a horse from France and to highlight the campaign against live export.  

[/ QUOTE ] 

Did you honestly think that this, the largest and most well known, equine Internet forum, had never heard of the ILPH's petition against live export?  Seriously?  If I was a cynic I would say that you joined this forum to encourage some of its members to buy dodgy horses at highly inflated prices.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





 [ QUOTE ]
I find it sad that i have had the unfortunate experience of having been in contact with a sadly negative group of people who are capable of giving the horse and hound forum a bad name.  

[/ QUOTE ] 
Perceptions are an interesting thing.......I believe what you perceive is not actually the case.  I think you will find that on here pretty much ALL of us have heard of the ILPH campaign and I'd wager that everyone has signed the petition; the one which you said you had not known about even though you allegedly own an equine company?  
	
	
		
		
	


	




   And on the contrary I feel that the general theme on HHO is a very positive attitude to ILPH; quite the opposite from your perception.

  [ QUOTE ]
This is not intelligent debate/discussion but is instead bullying and arrogance.   

[/ QUOTE ] 
Really?  You don't think this is an intelligent discussion?  You see, this is a rational and a logical discussion on this thread from the HHO posters perspective.   Some of us on HHO can see the bigger picture, whereas you are emotionally involved - being emotionally involved in a situation requires someone of good integrity to remain impartial and rational; unfortunately you don't have either quality as your rantings have displayed.  Sherman, on the other hand, quite clearly has a rational mind and has put across her opinion in a very calm and intelligent manner and I have to say if my name was Sherman and you were trying to champion my cause, I would be seriously cringing by now.....


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## peter1959 (11 September 2007)

not taking any sides, but many of you have come down hard on blueberry.  Initially blueberry was telling you their own experience and a website concerning it did and Blueberry has been slated because of this.  Only when some of you have been rude did blueberry responded back in a similar tone

Again you are presuming that everyone has signed the petition, are you in a position to speak on behalf of all on HHO. Maybe they have signed the petition but what a great position you must be in,  will I win the lottery on Wednesday?????????Please tell me, you seem to know everything else! This is the kind of attidude many of you have displayed

Blueberry is obviously not respresenting Shermans cause, they were just standing up for themself against you bunch of ......hold back on the negative comments....... people.


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## blueberry (11 September 2007)

Do you seriously think that being insulted by this forum's visitors is offering a basis for a fair discussion. You may or may not have noticed but i have merely stated by opinion and as this is a free country i expect to be allowed to do so. 
I did no come onto this forum  presuming that everyone had not heard of the ILPH ,I came on to explain why i had saved this horse and that the reason was to raise awareness for the campaign. I think here i have been very misunderstood. 
I am emotionally involves-of course i am-but you will not find -im sure-anyone who is driven to campaign against something about who is not emotionally charged in the first place because it is this that will prompt you to keep going in diversity.
I do not believe i have ranted on at all i have simply chosen to answer the critics.
I have had many things rudely suggested to me, clearly, and more than suggesting that my intentions are less than good-dishonest even, i have been called amongst other things, also liar and a dealer  am i not to answer those comments??
You obviosly do not know me personally-if you did you would not have said them in the first place.
 I am proud to say that i have an excellent reputation both personally and professionally. I pride myself on being honest and being true to my word.
I am not a dealer and I am not trying to encourage people to buy the horses, i have never once suggested that. 
I don't think the 'slating' i have recieved has been fair. 
When i read the comments that were made after Sherman's first intro i was suprised at the negative attitude and this attitude is a common theme throughout this thread. 
I havent been quiet -no, but why should i not answer back and have my say. I have not been insulting to any individuals as they have been to me so i believe i have been rather controlled.
I have asked questions to individuals who have made personal comments  to me to allow sensible open minded discussion but they tend not to answer back but people are more keen to barrage insults, no one inquired about the process of saving this colt-  so it became clear to me that individuals are not here for discussion/debate.


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## blueberry (11 September 2007)

thankyou, laraloo!!!
its nice to hear a rational and supportive voice.


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## ISHmad (11 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]

    Sherman, on the other hand, quite clearly has a rational mind and has put across her opinion in a very calm and intelligent manner and I have to say if my name was Sherman and you were trying to champion my cause, I would be seriously cringing by now..... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto


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## JM07 (11 September 2007)

i have TWICE now in this tiresome thread, said that i DO support the banning of the abhorrent live transport of horses.

i am not ignorant, i can and do, fully understand what goes on in mainland europe..and here too.

i and many others, have also said that, by OUR CHOICE would rather support a well known organisation that is ACTUALLY being seen to be doing something to stop this trade.

i have at home, 8 animals with GOOD conformation, bred with a job in mind.
horses to me are not pets, they are working animals..and before you jump up and down, check with the ILPH, they will agree with me.
i am not about to trot off to "meat farms" in france, pay the guy my hard earned cash to buy some sub-standard animal that is, beleive it or not, actually where it is because there is a MARKET for it...which, if we all went to france to buy one, would get bigger!!

so no, i am going to decline your "kind" offer to buy myself something i have no use for.

the above is MY OPINION ONLY....but it does seem to be in the majority...
oh yes, as for an intelligent debate...to have one YOU need to be able to understand and accept that there are two sides to a debate...


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## blueberry (11 September 2007)

Your opinion does not concern me-i stand by everything i have said!
It doesen't do for us all to be the same!
from what i read you were all pretty harsh about Sherman's thread??


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## blueberry (11 September 2007)

I have not asked YOU or anyone for that fact, to purchase one of these horses in France. Your comments goes to prove that you have jumped in without reading everything that i have said.
If you had read everything you would have realised that i am NOT Opposing the ILPH but do in fact DO support it.
You will also have realised that i am not against people having opinions as it was ME who asked for people to see that this was something i chose to do and wanted people to be open to see my point-not have to agree with it!!
I too buy my horses to do a job and show at a HOYS/OLYMPIA level so i know as well as anyone the importance of good conformation.
Critisize if i had bought a rescue mare with bad conformation and then said 'i think i will breed from her'.
The horse i rescued was not being sent for slaughter because he had poor conformation-he was owned by a farmer with heart problems. in fact he is a very nicely put together percheron with full papers and he will have a purpose in life. at the moment he is a fantastic companion to a youngster also. his temerament is wonderful and i will look forward to backing him.
i appreciate i have played devil's advocate and most people to not like to be challenged in any way so the response was expected but never mind we are only given challenges that we can cope with!


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## ISHmad (11 September 2007)

Fantastic!  Finally we agree on something as your opinion doesn't concern me either.  I was actually supportive of Sherman early on, had you bothered to have read it.  

We are indeed only given challenges that we can cope with - and I can cope with far more than this believe me.


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## Dovorian (11 September 2007)

I have not taken sides but have to say that I was impressed by Laraloo's commitment to this issue, clearly he/she took the effort to register with the forum in order to participate in the debate so thier feeling must be strongly on the side of the original poster.

At the weekend we went for a mega ramble and I walked past a field of pretty rough looking young horses, miles from any other buildings and in a ragwort invested field.  Upon enquiring who the owner was I was told that it is a 'man with a huge cattle truck', this person apparently picks up these unfortunate animals in France, brings them to the UK and then selles them on,  ' when they look better', I see a possible pattern here...

BTW, I have informed the ILPH of these poor horses, particularly as one was in need of veterinary treatment.


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## blueberry (11 September 2007)

I agree.
It is very unfortunate for these horses, it sounds as though there is another issue for concern there. 
Its good you contacted the ILPH , at least now there may be an option for something to be done that maybe would not have been done otherwise.


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## reynold (11 September 2007)

fundamental problem boils down to two simple issues.

1. transport over long distances in inappropriate conditions prior to slaughter. 

Totally disagree with this - animals (lambs, horses, whatever) should be slaughtered as close to home as possible and transported properly.

As regards the 'as close to home as possible' - it is the EU regulations that have ultimately forced the closure of many local abbatoirs in this country. Then there are the large supermarkets that insist on shipping sheep from Devon to Midlands to be slaughtered because "that is the concern we have a contract with".

2. Second major issue is that people here have a problem with horse meat being in the food chain. I may and do choose not to eat horsemeat knowingly - but I do accept that other countries have other choices. tbh horsemeat is lean and nutritious. A large dose of reality is needed here in this 'nation of animal lovers' that will campaign about horsemeat whilst eating a Bernard Matthews turkey burger. Double standards (don't get me started on 'factory farming' as a subject)

The main issue is the transport and the ILPH are doing a good EU wide job of trying to deal with that. Individual organisations would do better to act as 'collectors' for the overall campaign as the ILPH would maybe get listened to by an MEP - but would a tiny organisation in English in a French country get the same hearing ? I doubt it.

As for the comment about horse breeding in this country - a lot of that comes back down to a humans natural 'fear of death' both for their family/friends and for their pets. Too often animals are not in the best quality of life because their owners cannot 'let go'. 

Ignoring the slanging going on (too often) there are core issues that need addressing. Some by the ILPH and some can only be dealt with by a good psychiatrist ;-)


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## Tia (11 September 2007)

Umm......if you read what I _actually_ wrote, you'll notice the words "I'll wager"  
	
	
		
		
	


	




.   

As you have only been on HHO for 5 minutes, obviously you wouldn't know what has been previously discussed on here.....but if you run a search then it should very quickly become clear that most on here have signed the ILPH petition.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





It seems that there is some confusion going on though - Blueberry is claiming that equinesection and equinerescuefrance are in allegiance with one another - Sherman claims not.  Judging by the way in which Sherman appears to hold her own on this thread, I very much doubt that she _needs_ anyone to stand up for their company, particularly if they are printing inaccuracies....

I will say one thing though; sometimes small offshoots, riding on the back of large establishments, can be a good thing.  They do often help to highlight issues and so long as they direct people to the larger establishment who actually do have a hope in hell of having Laws changed, then I see no issue.  What does concern me though, is that by having all of these little guys who may not really be focused on the REAL issue, and may have designs on making money first and foremost, can often distract people from the true goal, hence these petitions can become lost in the mire.

Note* - according to Sherman, her company (equine rescue france) is a registered not-for-profit company (in basic terms; a charity).  Equine section on the other hand, bears no admission that they are a charity, hence the implication that they are a company which works for profit and are NOT a charity.

None of these smaller companies will make a great difference - the only one who can do it is ILPH; and as I say one more time, ILPH is where people should be directed to.  They are the ones who CAN make the difference.


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## Donkeymad (11 September 2007)

Well said Tia.
What I find strange is the number of new members who have come here to HHO simply to support this campaign. rarely do they join in with the whole forum board - although some do to some extent.
We are well aware of this Campaign and, if we wish to do so, will join the IHDG and support them, otherwise we will remain here and continue to support the ILPH. Of course, if we wish, we can do both!!
All members are obviously welcome to join HHO, but to join for this one purpose, seems rather sad.


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## blueberry (11 September 2007)

Good points and fair comment.


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## blueberry (11 September 2007)

To clarify. I initially contacted a member from equinesection who actually put me in touch with the founder member of equine rescue france. i liased with both individuals and if you are able to take the time to look at both the sites you will see the percheron (steel grey) on the saved section.
Both sites also guide people to a ILPH link and the government petition.


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## Tia (11 September 2007)

Yes I looked.

One of the points I am making is that only one of these companies is a charity.  All the other points I have made though are obvious.


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## ISHmad (11 September 2007)

EMW Sanctuaries UK have announced that they are proud to be associated with the NON profit making Equine Rescue France, which is great.  EMW do a wonderful job for our own horses needing rescue, and did take one of the French rescues too.  They subsequently issued a statement saying that their top priority has to be horses in the UK.  But with all their expertise, results and the like over the years I am sure that Equine Rescue France will benefit hugely from their support and help.


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## Dobsie (11 September 2007)

On behalf of Equine Rescue France, I would like to clarify the following points: 

We are an independent association that has been formed by a group of individuals with a common desire - to improve the welfare of equines in France. As individuals, many of us have rescue horses, either ones that were on their way to an abattoir in another country or ones that were subject to poor welfare. However as a group, we believe that our united front can contribute to improving the welfare of equines in France through education, campaigning and acting on behalf of equines in need of help.

We recognize that removing an individual horse from the meat chain has little impact on the overall meat chain  but for the individual horse, it makes a significant difference. Furthermore, if these horses are then being effectively used in all walks of life to highlight the anti-live transportation campaign, potentially they do have a longer term impact. It is up to individuals to decide if this route is for them.

But, as we are on the ground in France, ERF can have an impact on the local views  in fact we already are and are gathering local French support for our campaigns. This surely has to help the work underway in the UK through the ILPH and others. Furthermore, by educating local youngsters in France, we hope to have a longer term impact on equine welfare here. We recognize that we cannot influence everyone in France but each person we reach must be a step in the right direction.

Regarding the fattening yards, the debate is as alive in France as it is on this forum  we are concerned that these guys could turn into cheap dealers and breeders and this is the reason that we are now being extremely careful about which horses we promote for re- homing. There is a horse meat trade and if the horse has been bred for this reason and killed humanely nearby, so be it. However, we stand by our action to empty the mushroom farmers yard  these were animals that were handled regularly, had done a job for man, were young and in generally good health. There will be no re-stocking as the farm has closed.

Finally, to clear up any confusion, we have no formal links with either Equine Section or IH (apart from participating on the forums). Before we were an association in our own right, IH &amp; subsequently ES provided a way to reach a new audience with information on those horses identified as requiring rehoming. This link was essential in the rehoming of the mushroom farmers herd, but it was the founders of ERF who visited the yard, organized vets visits and loaded the lorry. Happily, we are now an association in our own right, with our own website and structure, and will remain an independent organization driven by our members. We look forward to working with EMW and benefiting from their experience in this field.

I apologise for this long posting, but rest assured that ERF have listened to all the points raised on this forum and others. We all have a common desire to improve equine welfare and by working together we can make this happen. We are not simply a band of do-gooders with a new cause  we are here for the longer term and believe we can have an impact on the ground in France. If you would like to have an influence on our direction in the longer term, please join with us and continue to contribute your views.


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## peter1959 (11 September 2007)

people can view topics without registering, i chose to register when I wanted to reply to a comment.  Apologies for me not registering years ago, we are all new members at some point, come on give us a break!


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## Fairynuff (11 September 2007)

so refreshing to read an intelligent and well thought out reply! I could listen to you all night Reynold  
	
	
		
		
	


	




. Mairi.


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## blueberry (11 September 2007)

As you know Sultan came from the mushroom farmer. Thanks to the efforts of your team he is enjoying a life he would not now have. As you will know he has a wonderful temperament and is a pleasure to own.
He loves being out in the field-his first day out was special, especially as it was his first ever taste of grass. He is out with 2 other youngsters whom he is proving to be the perfect companion with. 
I am so glad we made the decision to become involved and save Sultan. He has led to much discussion and i know more people in our local area have signed the petition against live export so its all good.


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## Fairynuff (11 September 2007)

I went to one of the biggest 'agricultural fairs' in northern Italy on Saturday. I made a bee line for the equine stands, as I normally do. I wont go into detail as its pretty obvious as to how things were..but...! Im very proud of myself, I DIDNT buy the little black filly with the snip and one sock who was SKIN and BONE, up to her eyeballs in worms and was tied up with a string headcollar eating mould with some hay stuck to it-she was maybe 6 months old! Nor did I buy any of the others who were desperately needing to go to the butcher. I still think about that little filly and wish I hadnt been so strong minded in NOT fuelling the sad chain 
	
	
		
		
	


	




. I feel bloody awful , but the demand has to stop for the supply to run dry. I did it once with Paolino and Doodles-I will not do it again! I did  report the situation to the Italian RSPCA (!) and have contacted the various local authorities and animal rights groups. Please-do not buy meat animals or the wrecks that are up for sale-all you are doing is increasing the demand! That poor little filly.... 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Mairi.


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## dieseldog (11 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
people can view topics without registering, i chose to register when I wanted to reply to a comment.  Apologies for me not registering years ago, we are all new members at some point, come on give us a break! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I think you will find that you were being commended for the effort you showed in joining, and now that you are a member you could also contribute to some of the other posts on the forum


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## JCWHITE (11 September 2007)

I see there is quite a debate about ERF. What I will comment on is that, for those living here and wishing to get involved in some small way, we can UNDERSTAND this new site. French is not my first language. So I applaude those who are trying to make a difference.


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## Tia (11 September 2007)

Thank you for that Noisette; yes I think, from what you have said, that you are starting to educate the French people around you and this will undoubtedly make some sort of an impact on the larger picture....._because_ you are living, working and breathing over there.  ILPH will always be the one who has the clout; they are large enough to be able to command a far bigger audience; however smaller companies like yourselves who are pragmatic and can see the full picture will, I hope, make a difference locally.  In my opinion you are doing it for the right reasons with a clear picture of your goals.

Well done - and the very best of luck to you.


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## Dobsie (12 September 2007)

Thanks Tia and JCWhite - hopefully we can all work together to improve equine welfare over here.


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## lisacarrera (12 September 2007)

A quick message from www.equinesection.com re all the comments positive and otherwise. It seems that there is allot of confusion about who we are and what we are about so i felt a post was needed here. Please don't knock the round the clock working hours by many, we have families and jobs away from running equine section as well as looking after our own equines. 
The mare now for re homing is not for sale she has an owner and it is a new loan home that is required. She is not owned by equine section but her plight was raised through us and another forum. 
We would like to make this clear on our standing, we are not a non profit making organisation, we are not a charity and we are not a profit making organisation. We are a 100% voluntary set up. We list horses and the plight of these horses are now in many papers and now in magazines raising awareness to end the live export for slaughter. We also will be supporting the main problem and reason for these horses plight in the 1st place "indiscriminent breeding". However not all of these horses there are what many would call .... well you have your own names for them personally i love them all whether badly designed or not, However whether wrong in confirmation or failed racers or just bred randomly these horses are suffering and paying the price. So we will be raising awareness for this too. The ILPH do a wonderful job and we are right behind them just as much as any registered charity, using actions as well as words and the plights of these horses. We are not saying please go to France or any other country and save one however if there's a home out there we are happy to help the odd one. (odd one meaning its only a tiny number in comparison to the amount who take the deadly journey). We cannot save them all. The ILPH as you are all aware have hoof not hook campaign underway, so please support this. Slaughter is to me still unbearable yet i have no intention to try to abolish this, it has been done in other countries where the repercussions are worse than the slaughter itself e.g. farmer's D.I.Y methods. There is a need for disposal. Slaughterhouses are now few and far, i think and will research further feel we need more not less in the UK. There will always be a welfare issue and sadly in my lifetime we cant deal with it all but by getting behind some people/organisations who are trying their hardest to bring reality home you we will get more done in our lifetime than we would sailing on alone. Well done to everyone who is backing the ILPH campaign. We "all" of us who do something as simple as sign the petition will be contributing in a huge way. 
We have no finantial funding nor do we ask for any so therefor have not set up as a recognised association of any sort, we are not a registered company. One day we may set up officially but there are sunstantial costs in order to do so. 



Thank you for taking the time to read. 
Kind Regards - Equine Section


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## Suzibn (12 September 2007)

Hello Everyone,

First, let me praise the efforts of our friends in France to help horses so badly in need of help.  Fantastic effort, and may you succeed in your efforts.  We are behind you 100 per cent!

I too am helping with equinesection.  I can verify absolutely that no money is changing hands on equinesection and there is absolutely no attempt to collect money for ourselves in the transactions between farmer and buyer.  All we do is list and picture various horses that are in imminent danger of taking a trip of thousands of miles with no concern for their welfare.

We are also trying to educate those who need help with rescues, and that is no small task!  It takes hours of voluntary help to post our suggestions to those who need help.

It is absolutely hidious that in our "humane" society of horselovers some people are not getting behind this effort in one way or another.   However, everyone is entitled to their opinions and we all know that some people in the horse business are in it only to make the all mighty dollar. This, obviously leaves a bad taste in our mouths.  We've all been there, and it's not pleasant to be on the biting end of rascals and theives.  The only way to know we are serious is to watch us go on and succeed.  We aren't going anywhere until the practice of long haul shipment of horses is banned.  We all know horses are not cattle or sheep, they don't stand a chance of emerging from the meat wagons in good shape. The actual slaughter in some countries is cruel and makes horses suffer needlessly.

As our Global Administrator says, if you do not like what we are doing, you can simply sign the petition against live transport of horses for slaughter, but please stop think about the horses first.  They don't deserve this treatment.  They have gone to war with us, pulled our wagons across new countries, given their lives for us.  It's time we paid them back for their loyalty and love.

To those who have made such terrific comments about equinesection I thank you from the bottom of my heart.  And to those who have actually saved horses from torture, I praise you to the heavens and hope God blesses you for many years to come.

Please come and join us if the spirit moves you to do so.  We need all the help we can get, and I know there are many experienced horsemen/women on this forum who could share their knowledge to the benefit of horses everywhere.

You do not need to actually save a horse to share our mission which is to stop transport of horses for slaughter. You can sign the petition, post a note, tell us about your horses, achievements and how you won or lost.  Tell us about your training methods, or who your favorite horse guru is!

Thank you, and God Bless,
Suzibn


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## peter1959 (12 September 2007)

I believe this is sultan (blueberry.s colt) on his first time out on grass


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## blueberry (12 September 2007)

Thankyou for the help with the pic laraloo. 
Now at least there is a face to the name!! I may be biased but what a handsome boy he is!
This was his first day in the field, he was just making his way over to two other youngsters . To me, his expression says it all.


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## wilder (12 September 2007)

i replied on the last thread waves hello mairi i don,t think you were shot down in flames but your argument of people paying more than the meat weight price was shot down as you never answered my question as weight per euro ratio on my horse worked out cheaper, and by the way the swiss do eat imported horsemeat not homebred, can i just say when this started i had no intention of buying another horse but i couldn,t let this one be crammed on a lorry for his journey to italy so he came home to me he is not a scrawny ready to drop horse but a stunning french normandy cob there was no reason for him to die except to substain the appetite,s  of people who don,t care that the meat on their plate had some quality and dignity of life which to me is abhorrent
he has been here just over 5 weeks he is now ridden and may i add jumps like a stag, over 70 horses have been saved and if one or two people find they can,t cope we are there to support them not say i told you so,
as for the argument there is always more to fill the space again wrong dept 86 farm is now shut down no more horses will ever go through there and the last ones now face a brighter future
and as for the argument charity begins at home i think you will find that many of us already have rescued horses from our own countries 
nobody is asking for anyones approval but maybe just take time to read some of the stories and try not to be blinkered in your opinions


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## Shabbycat (13 September 2007)

I have been reading with a great deal of interest the post threads regarding Equine Section and Equine Rescue France, and have been quite stunned to see some of the hostile responses which have been aimed at Blueberry (amongst others) and the sheer rudeness of some regular responders such as ISH_Mad. This person reminds me of the story about the scorpion and the frog crossing the river! It's just in their nature.
 I feel that the people at Equine Section and Equine Rescue France should be applauded for  every horse that they can save from the cruelty these animals suffer due to the inhumane transport conditions which are used and which we all are fighting to stop by petitioning through ILPH, and the more people who are made aware the better and thus the more signatures.
I have looked at Equine Sections Site and was pleased to see that they are promoting this petition very strongly indeed, and was very heartened to visit the rescued section and see how many fine animals they are saving.
The argument that the money would be better spent by donation to ILPH is possibly true but why should we rudely attempt to stop these kind people from rescuing and enjoying many years of happiness with these animals, the price of which in the UK may be more than they can afford due to the greed of many so called breeders and trainers.
In conclusion, I would say support for people who are actually doing something is better than sitting on some forum and running down their efforts just to score a meanminded point or two.


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## ISHmad (13 September 2007)

And there was I being supportive of things when Sherman first posted...

Hey ho, I donate to many equine charities but most particularly ILPH, Brookes and EMW - so two out of three supporting the campaign against live travel isn't bad.

Not quite sure where I've been rude, or any ruder than Blueberry.  A forum is for discussion/debate not just to say what people want to hear!


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## blueberry (13 September 2007)

Thankyou for that 
	
	
		
		
	


	




The recent replies/comments on this subject have been heartfelt and now offers the opportunity for this discussion  to become an open and balanced debate.


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## Suzibn (13 September 2007)

Hello Blueberry!
Your boy is truly beautiful!  How lucky you are to have him, and how lucky is he to have you! He is going to be one heck of a beautiful fellow when he growns up!
I'm sorry that many have given  you such a hard time, you certainly don't deserve it!
May God continue to bless you for stepping in and saving such a beautiful creature.
And to those who have been nasty and mean, may I say, please apologise.  It only takes a minute.
Please come and post Sultans story on www.equinerescue.com.  There you will get support and happiness!  Thanks you for sticking your neck out and telling Sultan's story.  Those who truly love horses will understand!
Love you
Suzi


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## JM07 (13 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Those who truly love horses will understand!


[/ QUOTE ]

What a DumbAss thing to say........


and the rest of your post isn't much better........


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## Suzibn (13 September 2007)

"God grand me the courange to change the things I can, the serenity to accent those I cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference.
But God, grant me the courange not to give up on what I think is right, even though I think it is hopeless"
St. Francis of Asissi


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## blueberry (13 September 2007)

Thankyou and i will post Sultan's story. Your words are very kind.
Even though some comments have been offensive on this topic, i personally don't need an apology-i have broad shoulders  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Everyone is entitled to their opinion and i am not objectionable to a good healthy debate though i have refused to accept the almost slanderous comments and suggestions that have been made towards me. Now THAT i do take personally and i don't think such nature of comments are healthy and have any place in a this or any other debate.

Just 2 days ago i had a visitor to my shop who questioned who i was and mentioned the discussion on this forum-obviously the individual chose to remain anon to me (slightly unnerving) but i realised that this discussion has gained much interest which can only be good. 


 sincere thanks to the lovely support from yourself and other kind souls!


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## Suzibn (13 September 2007)

No, thank YOU for rescuing Sultan and loving him so much!
Love you,
Suzi


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## Tia (13 September 2007)

Wow!  It's all turning a little Evangelical here......


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## Onyxia (13 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 but i realised that this discussion has gained much interest which can only be good. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutly!
We might disagree on how best to help these horses but we all want to help them


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## Suzibn (13 September 2007)

Thank you, this is our aim.  We will all hang in there together or separately, until live shipment to slaughter is banned.
Suzi


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## JM07 (13 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Wow!  It's all turning a little Evangelical here...... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

more Billy Graham......


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## Fairynuff (13 September 2007)

Hi PVS- I still stand by what I said-its an emotional con and you are fueling the fire,  but hey ho thats up to you! Re the euro to kilo-you may have gotten a bargain but I doubt if it can be said of the majority!
The Swiss do eat home produced horsemeat and up untill a few years ago (maybe even still) had a rather archaic method of slaughter. A foreleg would be held up while a knife was introduced into the heart = the horse going down slowly and positioned as to how it went down= less bruising of the meat and less adrenalin in the meat. My sister was married to a Swiss German and lived near Zurich and worked in the hotel/rest business-she also rode and ate horses (meat).


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## JM07 (13 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Hi PVS- I still stand by what I said-its an emotional con and you are fueling the fire,  but hey ho thats up to you! Re the euro to kilo-you may have gotten a bargain but I doubt if it can be said of the majority!
The Swiss do eat home produced horsemeat and up untill a few years ago (maybe even still) had a rather archaic method of slaughter. A foreleg would be held up while a knife was introduced into the heart = the horse going down slowly and positioned as to how it went down= less bruising of the meat and less adrenalin in the meat. My sister was married to a Swiss German and lived near Zurich and worked in the hotel/rest business-she also rode and ate horses (meat). 

[/ QUOTE ]

hi mairi.....

glad someone mentioned the slaughter methods of some countries.....

as for the fueling..you know my thoughts on that.....


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## EMWSanctuaries (14 September 2007)

for the long term foresee-able future there will continue to be a market for meat of all kinds, horse, cow, pig, sheep, poultry etc 
The issue isn't the slaughter, although as mairi points out, it isn't always a clinical procedure.
The issue is, and has been for many years, the long distance transportation of heavily pregnant mares, foals and old horses. 
The ILPH grounds for raising awareness are well known and documented,we've all seen the terrible images of the horses arriving at slaughter houses In Italy. EQUINE MARKET WATCH Sanctuaries UK, support the ILPH campaign whole-heartedly. 

EMW Sanctuaries UK, with funds purpose generated in July, were able to take one 18 year old Percheron mare from a fattening farm in france. That mare, Cybelle, is in a secure safe home for life and, as with all EMW equines, does have a loan contract beneath her should anything go wrong, if that happens she will come back to one of our sanctuaries and remain with us, safe and secure.
Cybelle arrived with many problems, full of worms, infected leg wounds and very stiff from the long journey, she also had teeth problems, was shut down and depressed. 
All these things take time to remedy. She is only now coming out of that depressed state.
Our policy is that we will not take in any horse, pony or donkey as a deliberate financial act unless we A) have the funding and B) have the home (pre-checked, suitable  and approved) ready and waiting. 
If EMW Sanctuaries UK took in every horse from sad and disturbing circumstances we would be stacking equines 10 deep within weeks - that is not quality of life.
EMW Sanctuaries are very much supporting Equine Rescue France as they are working within their own country for the benefit of equines in that country and have first hand knowledge of conditions, regulations and re-homing issues.
The best way to deal with issues regarding equines for the meat trade is to campaign and lobby both Euro MP's  for the EU, and UK MP's for UK concerns. The UK meat market does exist and is equally as disturbing as issues abroad.
By raising awareness the hope is that  all animals will get the dignity of local slaughter instead of gruelling journeys of many 1000's of miles.
EQUINE MARKET WATCH Sanctuaries UK
"We will NOT look away"
WORKING IN MARKETS, AUCTIONS AND HORSE FAIRS  for the benefit of equines in the UK

emw.


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## ISHmad (14 September 2007)

The great thing about your french mare is that she has the safety net of EMW behind her should anything go wrong with her loan home.  And this is fantastic and the reason why you are one of the various horse charities that I am quite happy to support.


And Equine Rescue France is to be commended for what they are doing too.  There is no doubt that they will continue to campaign for an end to the tortourous journeys these poor equines face, prior to slaughter.  Sherman posted some really good and informative details on this thread, and is clearly dedicated to helping to improve things.  

I will continue to support the ILPH too, and their Hook Not Hoof Campaign, as this is the real issue here which is being addressed so well by EMW and Equine Rescue France.  Lobbying MP's and the like is something I am more than happy to do as well.  

It is worrying to see two rescue horses already being moved on, or at least their owners wanting them moved on after the considerable disruptions in their lives.  Lucky Cybelle to always have sanctuary with you if she needs it EMW.


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## blueberry (14 September 2007)

What wonderful work you are doing!!

Due to the awareness Sultan's Rescue and interest has raised, many people in our local area have contacted our shop expressing a desire to want to 'do something' either monitary or otherwise. We have and will continue to direct people to organisations such as yourselves and the ILPH.
This offers the opportunity for the biggest difference to be made.


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## minkymoo (14 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
The ILPH as you are all aware have hoof not hook campaign underway, so please support this.  

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume that you meant the Hook NOT hoof rather than the other way around!!


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## minkymoo (14 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
We all know horses are not cattle or sheep, they don't stand a chance of emerging from the meat wagons in good shape. The actual slaughter in some countries is cruel and makes horses suffer needlessly.
/quote]

TBH as an animal lover I find this slightly distasteful. I genuinely feel that any live export of any animal is fairly revolting and I don't think any animal emerges from meat wagons in 'good shape'. Long distance movement of meat should be done as carcasses and not as live animals regardless  of whether it is a cow, sheep or horse.


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## S_N (14 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We all know horses are not cattle or sheep, they don't stand a chance of emerging from the meat wagons in good shape. The actual slaughter in some countries is cruel and makes horses suffer needlessly.
/quote]

TBH as an animal lover I find this slightly distasteful. I genuinely feel that any live export of any animal is fairly revolting and I don't think any animal emerges from meat wagons in 'good shape'. Long distance movement of meat should be done as carcasses and not as live animals regardless  of whether it is a cow, sheep or horse. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Absabloodylutely!!!!!  Hear, hear!!!


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## Suzibn (14 September 2007)

I was not trying to be evangelical.  Just trying to make a point.


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## Fantasy_World (14 September 2007)

Sounds a rather barbaric and cruel way to kill a horse to me


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## ISHmad (15 September 2007)

This highlights why it is so important that there is back up to any rescues, just like EMW are providing to their french rescue mare who is now out on loan:

http://ihdg.proboards91.com/index.cgi?board=area41&amp;action=display&amp;thread=1189777235

Anyone's circumstances can change, but this is the third one now that we know of already that is possibly going to need moving on again.


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## lisacarrera (15 September 2007)

We are working on this being a possibility. Still alot of logistics to sort out. 

These are still private owners and no horse is owned by any of these sites. However we are looking into possibilities at present and in the mean time helping owners and offering support after should they hit any difficulties whether change of circumstance, unforeseen bills, health and otherwise. Had we ever intended to have become a rescue site in such a large scale this would have been done before the site was born, however this was not the case, it was the plight of a few horses that grew. We couldnt shut down and let many go to slaughter without trying to help them. We are constantly taking on more volunteers in order to cope to the best of our ability with this, whilst getting together a better system as well as looking into setting up as an officially. Just like ERF it came about after we (ES, NV and now ERF which has been founded by the one of the lovely ladies from NV) worked closely to get as many out as possible. However i agree a safety net would be much needed should things go wrong and we are looking into all of these things. 

The mare that is for rehoming does in fact have a safety net, she was bought by a lady who has a rescue rehab and is currently at a loan home. 

The lady who is now in difficulty due to her situation has also been offered support where we and ERF have offered to help with logistics of paperwork so she can keep her horse. As well as other options. 

Regards
Equine Section


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## lisacarrera (15 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The ILPH as you are all aware have hoof not hook campaign underway, so please support this.  

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume that you meant the Hook NOT hoof rather than the other way around!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes ofcourse, it does not let you eddit after several minutes. Im sure most people knew what i meant. Writing justifications and feeding a baby can sometimes get abit complicated, but there we are. 

Regards Equine Section.


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## blueberry (15 September 2007)

Is it fair to presume that the individuals -who, for whatever reason- are needing to rehome their rescue horse are not responsible enough to ensure they will re-home them suitably?

I believe that everything has the right to life (although i accept there are situations/illness etc that affects this).

What these horses were offered is a chance that no-one else was offering them.
Thanks to all individuals involved in theses rescues a large amount of horses have now the opportunity to that right.

No-one deals with a 'meat man' in the purchase of these horses and none are bought from a 'meat man'.
They are mainly farmers who volunteers are working endlessly with  to intervene and to allow them to be sold privately but for the same value as 'meat'.
In fact it is more trouble for the famers to sell these horses in this way. It is far more easier for the farmers to  sell them all at once and to go all at once on that '5 star luxury horsebox' to another land.

There is no con, in this particular situation-the horse is weighed on a weighbridge, we recieve the weighbridge ticket and you are advised of the value of the 'meat' per kilo. You make the calculation and pay that price. 



Many people re-home their horses-should they also be critisized?


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## lisacarrera (15 September 2007)

Re the emotional con comment, that is your worry , view and opinon. I respect that, there is alot of dishonesty when it comes to the plights of animals, it happens alot even with charities. But guys i have a young family to raise single handed youngest a baby of 14 weeks old, i am here everyday with a few others fighting the corner of these horses and all i have to gain is a very large phone bill and a smile for everyone we save, and a broken heart when i have to place the ones we lost in rainbow bridge just like i did today. If no-one rescued another horse we will still be here that wont change we will be happy with what has been saved and continue to use the plight of the horses to end live export for slaughter. I understand as a unrecognised bodie many will be and are critical/sceptical but to be honest we have nothing to gain from this, All organisations start of as non profit/volentary before the can get charity status. I personally dont want to go down that route of getting charity status. So will are setting up as non proffit.


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## lisacarrera (15 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Is it fair to presume that the individuals -who, for whatever reason- are needing to rehome their rescue horse are not responsible enough to ensure they will re-home them suitably?


[/ QUOTE ]


We have made it clear to everyone that if they find themself in trouble for what ever reason dont be ashamed to say and stuggle on alone when together we can come up with a solution. On my forum people can talk freely and help/advice is offered in any areas its available. 

Unfortunately but i hope this is not the case, i think people will now keep quiet or not as forth coming about any issues they may be having after reading threads like the one we are on now. 

Equine Section


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## Suzibn (15 September 2007)

Here, Here, Equine Section,
A good point is raised here.  I have been in the horse business for over 50 years now, both in the USA and here in England.  
If no one rehomed due to financial circumstances, ill health, or simply because they wanted to move up a step to a better horse, or from pony to horse without a "safety net", there would be no Horse and Hound, Friday Ad or other mags chock full of advertisements for "sound, healthy, no vices, novice ride", or" 5 star Dressage Horse, schoolmaster" (oh, I'm sure the dressage horse described will just love his life in a livery yard with people pulling on his mouth and sending confusing signals his way).  
I have an idea!  Why don't we all just get out of horses period.  We'll do it the PETA way, no more horses for anybody because someone might "mistreat them".  Then we won't have to continue this rediculous conversation full of malicious accusations, unfounded rumours and half truths.
Won't we all be happier then?
Suzibn


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## lisacarrera (15 September 2007)

Crikey i really shouldnt rush and type with 1 finger. Id never make a secretary 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 back to front upside down inside out. Well its not for the want of trying!


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## Suzibn (15 September 2007)

Typing skills do not have a great deal to do with loving horses, being an accomplished horsewoman, rescuing 70 equines or having a big heart.  If all it took was typing skills then there would be an awful lot of office workers  out mucking stalls!
Love ya
Suzi


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## blueberry (15 September 2007)

Of course they will ensure that their rescued horses are suitably re-homed (to add to my thread)! and there is no harm in admitting they may need help, in fact it is commendable that they feel they can (lets remember that it is on a like minded, supportive forum that they are doing so)

Sometimes circumstances change beyond our control.

They are responsible and caring adults -as they have already proved by saving a horse in the first place.


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## Tia (15 September 2007)

Responsible people consider their long term situation before they leap in and take any animals into their care.


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## blueberry (15 September 2007)

It can also be said that responsible people also think before they speak or type as that may be.

In a perfect world everyone would have the foresight to see into the future but then again in a perfect world this would no be even an issue because in a perfect world there would be compassion for all living things and live export (which is the point of topic) and inhumane butchering would not exist.

So really what i am saying is that no-one is perfect and these individuals are not answerable to you or anybody else for that fact.


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## Tia (15 September 2007)

Oh goodness, PMSL!  I certainly don't expect them to be answerable to me or anyone else....that's funny!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Nope, people are purely answerable to their own conscience and of course they are answerable to any living being in their care.  Let's hope they think a bit harder about the consequences of having children eh?


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## peter1959 (16 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Responsible people consider their long term situation before they leap in and take any animals into their care. 

[/ QUOTE ]
such a shame we do ot have a crystal ball to hand, who knows what is around the corner? Shame we are not all in the  
	
	
		
		
	


	




very secure position as others as it seems


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## peter1959 (16 September 2007)

to those people such as myself who have the pleasure of having children. Children are a blessing and many adults who have not borne them are very selfish indeed!


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## ISHmad (16 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
We are working on this being a possibility. Still alot of logistics to sort out. 

These are still private owners and no horse is owned by any of these sites. However we are looking into possibilities at present and in the mean time helping owners and offering support after should they hit any difficulties whether change of circumstance, unforeseen bills, health and otherwise. Had we ever intended to have become a rescue site in such a large scale this would have been done before the site was born, however this was not the case, it was the plight of a few horses that grew. We couldnt shut down and let many go to slaughter without trying to help them. We are constantly taking on more volunteers in order to cope to the best of our ability with this, whilst getting together a better system as well as looking into setting up as an officially. Just like ERF it came about after we (ES, NV and now ERF which has been founded by the one of the lovely ladies from NV) worked closely to get as many out as possible. However i agree a safety net would be much needed should things go wrong and we are looking into all of these things. 

The mare that is for rehoming does in fact have a safety net, she was bought by a lady who has a rescue rehab and is currently at a loan home. 

The lady who is now in difficulty due to her situation has also been offered support where we and ERF have offered to help with logistics of paperwork so she can keep her horse. As well as other options. 

Regards
Equine Section 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the rational and sensible reply Equine Section, you, Sherman and EMW have done much to put a balanced view across on this sensitive subject.  It gets VERY frustrating when clearly some of the other people posting on here don't bother to read the posts properly to be honest...

My last post said that it was good that the french mare EMW took on has that safety net.  And it also said that people's circumstances do change.  But good old Blueberry just chooses to ignore that and rant on - again.  Which really isn't helping the cause.  

What you are looking to do in terms of safety nets/back up's and the like is to be commended.  And as other posters on here have said hopefully individuals themselves will think through the longer term implications before jumping in.  Because at the end of the day we all know that a horse is a huge financial commitment in itself.  No matter how rewarding it feels to have saved one there is still a lot of cost involved which people must be sure they can manage and not just be carried away "in the moment".  

A well balanced debate/discussion such as that facilitated by yourself, Sherman and EMW would have been really interesting.  The way it has been hijacked by well meaning but ranting do gooders in the interim really doesn't help your case.  And I appreciate what you are saying about people perhaps not wanting to disclose any problems too in light of threads like this.  

But if you are serious about these rescues then you pretty much have a duty for these issues to be in the public domain for people to make a balanced well informed decision.  Good luck with your organisation as it grows, hope that you are able to find a suitable framework which suits everyone.


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## lisacarrera (16 September 2007)

Hi ISH-MAD. We (Our staff) have recently had a discussion about having open threads on our website for the positive and negative surrounding taking a horse. There will be wonderful heart warming stories as well as nightmare situations that we have had to deal with. I do tell people when they ring and ask how easy it is, my answer is always its a nightmare because it really is but we get there in the end (usually) with the exception of the comtois. Also that unless they can go visit they are taking a horse off the cuff, it may be a bargain but it may be the most expensive horse you'll ever take. But yes we agree that it will be an eye opener for all the things that can go wrong. We want people to go into this with a realistic view. And there is so many hurdles to jump walls we hit but we over come these and learn very fast. 

We are looking to go non profit, this will then be a safety net for anyone having difficulties e.g. owner illness where they need rest bite, stallions can be cut before going to new homes etc. and ofcourse a permanent rest stop if need be, all sorts of scenarios. But as we cant take donations or ask for funding due to our lack of status we are currently appealing for help from a body who can help us set up, maybe as a sponsorship.

If anyone on here or anywhere has any suggestions on how to make things simpler more effective (apart from lobbying and signing petition as we are onto that) please do come forward, we are on our own forum listening to what people are saying and we have had some excellent suggestions so far, unfortunately most cant be done until were an official set up. 



If anyone can help we also welcome this. Im so glad to read on here that so many of you are supporting the ILPH and will be having a petition signing frenzy! brilliant. one hundred thousand signatures are needed, sounds allot but i believe its possible. I have seen plenty of our own horses go off via ireland then from there to France and other EU countries. So by highlighting the horses we do is hitting it in the heart of where it happens, Once we get a ban throughout EU it wont be cost effective to live transport ours through the loophole's either. I don't know if anyone noticed there was a few horses there that looked very much like Welsh section A's 
	
	
		
		
	


	




.  

If we finaly get our way ( i mean all of us, ILPH all of us) re Live export for slaughter, next step has to be strict laws on breeding and more not less local abotiors, there will always be a need for disposal. Sad but thats the reality of the world. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Kind Regards Equine Section


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## blueberry (16 September 2007)

I am so pleased you are displaying support to the organisations involved in the welfare of horses and the campaign against live export.

in reply to o my critic:
This has, i feel, been a worthwhile debate and of course opinions may differ-as you would expect.
I 'hijacked' this thread very early in the discussion stage to offer an insight into my experience and rationale of rescuing a french rescue horse-of which had relevance to this debate.

You have at times-with an intellectual arrogance attempted to intimidate indivuduals who have joined this thread and others (though not always in a polite or respectful manner).

You have been clearly irritated by my 'rantings' but if people were not passionate to rant on then nothing would ever change for the better in this world.

I, as a child, was brought up in an age where children were seen and not heard. I can remember well the consequence of being the main one out of my siblings who could not 'adhere' to this rule, more so when i felt an unjust. 
Four years ago i began to write a book, highlighting concerns i had with the educational support of pupils in mainstream schools (i specialise in autism). I remember being told that the book would cause some controversy but the need to try to make a difference was/is worthwhile enough to continue.

So what i am saying is that as well as myself, we ALL have a right to do what WE think is right, follow our own conscience and feel able to voice an opinion without intimidation, ridicule or otherwise


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## Suzibn (16 September 2007)

Everyone who buys a horse thinks they are doing the right thing, wether it be a show horse at top level, or just a rescue from france.  No one can see that they may be struck down with a disease they have no control of and suddenly have to rehome or sell their horses.  Interesting to note that rescue horse is up for loan, where-as show horse is for sale.  Shows you where the heart is in rescue people.
Suzi


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## S_N (16 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone who buys a horse thinks they are doing the right thing, wether it be a show horse at top level, or just a rescue from france.  No one can see that they may be struck down with a disease they have no control of and suddenly have to rehome or sell their horses.  Interesting to note that rescue horse is up for loan, where-as show horse is for sale.  Shows you where the heart is in rescue people.
Suzi 

[/ QUOTE ]

IME that is a complete load of TOSH!!!!!  Should any of my horses (one of whom is only 1 and pretty much undefeated in his age group in the show ring) EVER come down with a DISEASE (as a pose to condition/syndrome), that was incurable and likely to infect and cause other horses ill health, then I would PTS!!!  With regards to any coming down with a condition/syndrome, that was to halt their career/affect their quality of life I would also PTS as that is the kind, responsible and HUMANE thing to do!!!  I love my horses - I work bloody hard to keep them and show them and they don't owe me A THING!!!!  Therefore I will always do my absolute best by them, even at the end!!!  EVERYONE I have ever worked for (and believe me I have worked for some of the biggest names in the in International Horse Industry - Competition horse and Racehorses) has instilled this in me.  You tar far too many with your brush my dear and that's made me exceedingly cross!!!!


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## PapaFrita (16 September 2007)

Umm, I _think_ they might've meant the owner coming down with a disease 
	
	
		
		
	


	




As for the rest of it, I agree with you


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## Tia (16 September 2007)

I agree with you ISH.  The people you mentioned (the ones who are actually running these organisations) really have conducted themselves well in this discussion and have underlined the problems they have met along the way.  They show that this is not something they have undertaken lightly and they are fully committed in the long run for doing something to help the plight of these animals and most importantly encouraging any people who haven't already done so, to read and hopefully sign the ILPH petition - I join in with you ISH and commend them.  Well done you guys.


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## S_N (16 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Umm, I _think_ they might've meant the owner coming down with a disease 
	
	
		
		
	


	




As for the rest of it, I agree with you 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Well if that is the case, then the responsible owner has a contingency plan in place - I do and they are also detailed in my will!!


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## Tia (16 September 2007)

Eh?  All 3 owners, of the horses who are being moved on, have contracted diseases?


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## Tia (16 September 2007)

SN - you have hit the nail on the head.  As I tried to say earlier, all *responsible* horse owners have contingency plans.....anyone who doesn't is, in my opinion, certainly not a responsible owner.


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## S_N (16 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
SN - you have hit the nail on the head.  As I tried to say earlier, all *responsible* horse owners have contingency plans.....anyone who doesn't is, in my opinion, certainly not a responsible owner. 

[/ QUOTE ]

My horse are not the only 4 legged people to figure, but also my dog!!  If I had children dependant on me, then they too would figure in my plans.  ANYTHING - even Fish - should be considered by responsible owners!!


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## nuffield (16 September 2007)

I'm so glad people are rescueing these horses. You really are super people to be helping these poor horses.


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## Sherman (16 September 2007)

SAD NEWS!!!!!!!

I'm very sorry to have to say that the last three Comtois colts that we were trying to save left for Italy on Thursday!

This was despite the fact there were homes and purchasers for them but in the end the owner didn't wait for the arrangements to be made for payment to be made and collection of the colts.

These are the difficulties we have to face in France when dealing with some owners.If the meat lorry turns up prior to payment being made the horses are gone!!

Apparently they are in Turin now and will be slaughtered on Monday......where they are kept until that time is anyones guess.
This is the very sad reality of the horse meat trade and why each and every horse that is saved from the whole traumatic experience that occurs BEFORE they get to die is so important to us.


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## ISHmad (17 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]

You have at times-with an intellectual arrogance attempted to intimidate indivuduals who have joined this thread and others (though not always in a polite or respectful manner).



[/ QUOTE ]

PMSL.  I have not intimidated anyone on THIS thread, let alone on other threads.  I am not intellectual, but thank you for the compliment.  But am unfailingly polite and respectful to those who are the same.  It is nice to be able to have a sensible discussion with Sherman, EMW and Equine Section on here who as heads of their organisations are doing a great job at being factual and advising where the peaks and troughts of this are.  It may not change anyone's minds about taking a rescue but then again it just might.  If nothing else they are doing a wonderful job at highlighting the Hook Not Hoof campaign and I once again commend them.

Equine Section I will definitely continue to support ILPH and EMW plus Brookes.  I noticed from one of the earlier posts that EMW are supporting Equine Rescue France so am assuming as part of that the support extends to yourselves too?  In terms of agreements for the horses, what to do if things go wrong etc.

I have another question too Equine Section if I may.  Before the rescues arrive in the UK are they tested for any possible diseases etc which are contagious and could be spread to UK horses?  And if not, is that something which you and the other rescue organisation could help with?  That would reduce the risk of a sick rescue horse travelling when it isn't really up to it, and also reduce the risk of a UK horse catching a disease too.  

Sherman, I can only imagine how you must feel knowing you had homes for some other horses but their owner still sending them for meat.  To not have anyone wanting to take them is one thing, for that to happen is quite another.


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## lisacarrera (17 September 2007)

Hello again ISH-MAD,

 Thank you for bringing these very important issues up! Id much rather people ask these things so thank you.

 In answer to your question bout checks for diseases. The horses now carry health cert's issued prior to travelling. We are now setting up a system where we have a central point with 1 vet so we can have group vetting done. This will keep the cost's down for owner's re health cert's and disease control prior to entering the UK. The horses can't travel without the health cert so all owners must have this done either privately or with our help. Yet cannot force them to test for diseases prior to travel, however this is why we feel by using a central base with 1 vet it will lower the costs most if not all will be more than happy to have the test's run. There is no known cases of disease in any of the horses to date however i do not want to be complacent and feel it is crucial to protecting our own home bred 4 legged friends.
So yes i think it is something we could help with, Ideally once we set up as a non profit we can possibly even foot the bill as to encourage these work's to be done. also for gelding etc. 

ES is not related to EMW, however have worked very closely with the founder of ERF and im sure will continue to do so. However the more the merrier the larger the voice. 


Kind Regards - Equine Section


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## ISHmad (17 September 2007)

Thanks for that information Equine Section.  It is really interesting to be finding out more and more about the level of thought, care, attention to detail and the like which goes on "behind the scenes" so to speak.  

If Equine Rescue France and yourselves can find a vet to do a central group vetting then that would be great to keep the costs down etc.  Have I read your post correctly though in that people don't have to have these tests done?  Or are the health certificates compulsory prior to travel?  Sorry about all these questions, don't know anything about importing horses to be honest!

Hadn't even considered that some of these horses aren't gelded either TBH.  Just hope that people taking them on entire have the appropriate experience to handle them.

EMW are a true credit to the horse world with what they do, so you are very lucky indeed to have worked closely with their founder.  

Whilst personally if I had any rescue it would be one from the sales here I do applaud what you are doing for horses in peril, wherever in the world they may be.  And will most definitely continue to support the Hook Not Hoof campaign.  I am not a vegetarian, although as an out and out horse lover obviously the thought of eating horsemeat is for me personally abhorrent.  (But I know to many that will represent double standards).  Nothing will stop the horsemeat trade, any more than we would stop the eating of beef, pork, lamb and the like here in the UK.  But anything which stops these poor horses travelling for hours on end in such appalling conditions deserves, and indeed has got, an awful lot of support.

Have drafted out letters to various MP's and the like, but wondered if yourselves, Equine Rescue France or EMW have a letter which people have been using?  To make sure that I don't miss any salient points.  Thanks


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## blueberry (17 September 2007)

My apologies ISH_Mad, 
i had accidentally crossed my wires with another user!
 It's true-you have not been rude and intimidating.


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## ISHmad (17 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
My apologies ISH_Mad, 
i had accidentally crossed my wires with another user!
 It's true-you have not been rude and intimidating. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you very much for that Blueberry, I do appreciate you posting it.

I think we both care passionately about horses and along the way have stubbed toes when we really didn't need to.  Let's take the toe protectors off and get back to what's really important - horses, wherever/whatever they may be.  

Thanks again.


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## blueberry (17 September 2007)

I agree, thankyou.


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## lisacarrera (17 September 2007)

Hi Ish mad, yes you read it correctly, it is not compulasry. which is a worry but hopefully with enough encouragement and help from us people will have no objections. 

Sorry i meant that we have worked closely with the founder of ERF. 

I will dig out some campaign letters and the video were about to release. Let me come back to you on this one, i will also ask the others what they have written and forward to you so you can read and see if theres anything you would like to add to yours. 

Yes there is alot behind the scenes to be done it is very difficult but will get easier once set up as non profit. 

Not an official announcement but off the record i am at present looking into setting up my own yard for myself and this purpose which will ofcourse provide the safety net for these horses as well as a stop over for gelding etc, with substantial funding efforts we look to also have 1 in France.  Once all is official we will make an official announcement for this. 

Regards -Equine Section


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## lisacarrera (17 September 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My apologies ISH_Mad, 
i had accidentally crossed my wires with another user!
 It's true-you have not been rude and intimidating. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you very much for that Blueberry, I do appreciate you posting it.

I think we both care passionately about horses and along the way have stubbed toes when we really didn't need to.  Let's take the toe protectors off and get back to what's really important - horses, wherever/whatever they may be.  

Thanks again. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I absoloutley 100% agree. What we need is to be signing from the same hym sheet which can only gain strength in numbers! and allow us to give the horses the dignity and respect they deserve. 

Well done it's very easy to start a fire and very hard to put it out! very glad all has been resolved


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## lisacarrera (17 September 2007)

singing


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## wilder (19 September 2007)

ISH-Mad just to let you know us as rescuers also followed strict quarantine rules and strignent vet checks once the horses were home in england as most of us have other horses and wanted all to be safe and healthy, jupiter was sperated from my horses and stabled away from the rest of the horses he was checked for strangles, blood tests and basically a full vetting and after 3 weeks he was given the all clear and then could go next to mine and after a while he was put in with them and has settled well


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## ISHmad (19 September 2007)

That is good to know Parkviewsaddlery.  I find it quite worrying though that the health certificate prior to travel isn't compulsory and hope that as Equine Section said this is something which may possibly be set up in the future.  Sadly not everyone is as vigilant or diligent as yourself.

Equine Section I wondered if you had those letters available as yet?  Look forward to receiving them when you have.


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## lisacarrera (21 September 2007)

Hello ISH-MAD, 
    I cannot find mine, i have it i must but can i locate it no. it will turn up when im looking for something else, However in the meantime i have put up a post on ES and IHDG asking if others can dig out theirs. As soon as i have anything i will post with permission from the author(s). Ok i must raid like mad this is really annoying me now. I haven't sent mine yet but i have a prep done so will post as soon as i locate it.

I have some good news however, we are now about to go non profit so once this is all in place we will be able to do so much more before horses are taken on and after. So exciting but stressful times ahead.


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## lisacarrera (21 September 2007)

Nope, i couldnt find the origional for the life of me so have redone mine which brings us more upto date re what we (Equine Section) are doing. 

So i hope this helps you, feel free to pick out which parts/modify to suit if you feel will be useful in your letter. 

Go to http://www.writetothem.com to write to your MP OR MEP's

My name is Lisa Carrera, i am the founder of an about to become non profit organization Equine Section (www.equinesection.com), i write to you to ask for your support in ending the trade for live export for slaughter, we want to replace this with a carcass only trade. 

Over 100.000 horses each year are live exported throughout the EU to their deaths! Horses traveling from Spain to be fattened at farms in France only to then take a grueling 3 day trip to Italy for slaughter. These include many mares in foal and or with foal at foot, France wont slaughter pregnant mares so they are sent to Italy also where they fetch a higher price due to the quality of their meat, these mares can be slaughtered right up until 90% of the gestation period. Their rights.. they have none. All equines traveling throughout the EU for slaughter have no entitlement to food water or even rest stops. Many perish in the sheer panic, heat and fight for life during these journey's. 

Not our concern some may think, so I'm here to be a voice with your help if you may, to speak louder and to tell everyone it IS our concern. As a civilized country we set standards and examples. 

This is outlawed in our own country, only there's a loophole. Our own horses are now being exported for meat via Ireland over to France, Belgium and Mainly to Italy, where not going directly to Italy many still take that road prolonging the suffering. 

We are currently now trying to hit this market in the heart of where it lies the EU. Once this is outlawed in the EU, which i do believe will be enforced one day is actively underway we are also closing off the profitable trade through the loophole for our own British equines. It makes sense yes? With a carcass only trade animals will be put to sleep and be carcass driven making the meat trade more profitable as more animals can be exported on the hook than on the hoof. We are backing the ILPH (International League for the Protection of Horses) HOOK not HOOF Campaign run by ILPH Officer Emma Seel. http://www.ilph.org/campaigns_details.asp?id=733

You may have seen the article in our local paper with my new rescue mare saved from such a journey. I hope this was a story you read to the end and therefor now see that this does effect us right here in the United Kingdom. 

I am more than happy to invite you to attend our local horse sale/market with me/ By attending you will see first hand the reality and destiny of our own British Equines. Also to invite you to come along and meet one of the horses that has been removed from this live export fate, She is the bay mare on the Equine Section website and is now our mascot. For a brief in-site into our work and for a visual on what we want to stop, i present you the Equine Section Video. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaduNQORoOE


Your address and tel no:


Kindest Regards
Lisa Carrera - Equine Section

see the website
www.equinesection.com

Join the forum
http://equinesection.proboards92.com/


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