# Navicuar Feet again - better photos - to take shoes off or not...??



## viola (11 September 2010)

11th September 2010















































August 2009 (The day he was first tried at seller's yard)







He passed 5 stage vetting week later. Bought as a project horse, hasn't done much, bit of hacking. Two weeks later went lame after being brought back into work - slowly and only on the lunge as was awaiting saddle fitting). He had since been diagnosed with SI strain and navicular (changes on X-rays). Off work for the last year with exception of very on/off work in walk under saddle (20-30min hacking as advised by vets).
He has many musculoskeletal problems and IF he ever recovers from navicular his physio says he will need his movement pattern re-educated due to poor coordination. 
His conformation doesn't help - back end high and on the forehand. 







Thank you for reading and all your views.

More photos http://s991.photobucket.com/albums/af34/wiola1/Kingsley Feet/


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## ofcourseyoucan (12 September 2010)

sorry but i think your shoeing is crap


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## TheFarrier (12 September 2010)

Those shoes are way too small!!

Wedges are not going to help in this sitiation especially as the breakover is already compramised by the toe being too long. If your horse is in shoes at all it should be in egg bars set back to improve the break over and actually give heel support. Im not surprised that your horse is lame. Wedges are also only for short term use as they can cause permenant tendon and ligament damage.

eta: the long toes and the flares also need addressing

It wouldnt hurt to try him barefoot but i would recommend talking to a remedial farrier for a second opinion (AWCF) before taking the shoes off, also discuss with them taking the shoes off. It wouldnt hurt to talk to a 'remedial trimmer' by this i mean a trimmer that has actually successfully rehabilitated a horse with navicular. Otherwise another option is shoes off and turn away (with regular good trimming in the mean time, then bring the horse back into work and reevaluate). As navicular is a concussive disease shoes off can be beneficial as the there is no increased consussion as there is with shoes. 

A successful shoe to use on Navicular cases is the easywalker shoe wich is plastic and gives the support of a bar shoe (being a bar shoe) with the benefit of concussion absorbtion.


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## Andalucian (12 September 2010)

Ouch, those photos make me wince.  Off immediately, without question (and change farrier!!!)  With the ground becoming softer its a good time to go for it.  Personally I'd have a deep shavings bed ready, and some good hoof boots with soft pads inside for getting over any rough ground between stable and field.

The key question to ask those treating your horse currently is how this approach is going to "cure" the problem, not merely mask the pain temporarily.

Great photos by the way. Well done, and good luck.


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## mrdarcy (12 September 2010)

Hummmmm.... hate seeing wedges.

In your other post you mention that both your vet and farrier wanted the frog to be taking some pressure yet from the photos it's very clear to see that on anything other than a very soft/giving surface the frog will never ever make any ground contact.

The feet are way too long - the shoes and wedges only make things worse. From the photo taken when you went to try him at the dealers yard it's clear they are already feet in trouble.

Taking the shoes may also help his other problems - barefoot horses move more naturally than shod horses... just as human beings without shoes move more naturally than human beings wearing shoes. 

It is possible to do this barefoot rehab at home - plenty of good trimmers about - you need to think of it like bringing a horse back from a tendon injury. It shouldn't cost you anymore than it cost to put this set of shoes and wedges on! Most trimmers I know (including me!) don't charge anything like £60-70 a trim. Hoof boots last a lot longer than shoes so work out much cheaper. Changing the diet to a barefoot friendly one usually means saving a fortune as you cut out all those expensive commercial mixes.

He looks a lovely lad who's had his feet screwed up by incorrect diet and bad shoeing - not your fault, not his fault, just how the horse world is at the moment. Try barefoot - what have you got to lose at this point?


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## foxy1 (12 September 2010)

Awful shoeing! 

Its really worth you going barefoot; have you looked at the Rockley farm website?

You can do this kind of rehab yourself with the guidance from a good trimmer; the main thing you need to address is diet.

I would recommend the book 'Feet First' (I got mine from amazon) for some really good info on barefoot and a thorough explaination of how and why it works.

Good Luck!


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## foxy1 (12 September 2010)

Just read other thread and wanted to say barefoot doesn't haven't to be expensive at all; it's not about having the trimmer all the time as the diet is the most important aspect. It's about the horse being able to grow a better foot to support him, not about a 'magic' trim.

I have both my horses barefoot at a normal livery yard with no special facilities or surfaces to work them on.

When the vet came to vaccinate my (lame) TB shortly after I bought him he looked at his feet and said "well they are absolutely shocking" Now he has great feet and is sound doing lots of roadwork/schooling/jumping.

Seroiusly, give it a go. Your horse will thank you for it.


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## TallyHo123 (12 September 2010)

Horrible shoeing!! I would get those off immedietly, trying barefoot wouldn't hurt I don't think.


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## LucyPriory (12 September 2010)

OP - I am so glad you are thinking about taking these shoes off.  It is this type of poor work that gives farriery a bad name.

Definitely check out Rockly Farm as background info.

But if you can find a good trimmer and are willing (have the resources) to address the horse's management (diet being key), there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to do this at home.

From the photos it would appear that your horse does have dietary issues, the hooves are badly bull nosed, big event lines and significant infection of frog/central sulcus.  Horrible contraction too, but that is a combination of poor quality shoeing and the infection (which is also in part down to the shoeing.)

Slightly off point IMO horses with feet in this condition and this badly shod should never pass a vetting.  I know I know, there are thousands of feet just like this out there and vets and farriers never pass comment.  Shame on them!

OP - you will find the deshoeing process so much easier if you have boots.  They do last for ages and many of us find that after the initial transition, they are no longer required.  Some of us will always need them during peak grass sugar times.

If your horse changes foot shape so you need to change your boots you will find there is a healthy second hand market so you can offset the expense of new ones.  If you are lucky you will be able to pick up a second hand pair from the start.  But you will probably find the advice of a good trimmer regarding the best style and fit to suit your horse will save you money.

And thank you for being so open and posting these pictures for everyone to comment on.  Not everyone can do it.

Good luck and all the best

Just get those horrors off your horse's feet 

Oh - and all the horses I have deshod end up moving so much better - some immediately, some after a considerable time transitioning.  But without fail, when they have grown the feet they need for their particular conformation etc, they are softer, find it easier to lift their backs, move out better.  Some have cantered for the first time in years.

But you can't expect a horse with metabolic issues and very poor feet to be sound immediately the shoes come off.  Which is one reason we recommend boots to start with.


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## touchstone (12 September 2010)

I'd have the shoes removed too, a lot of horse owners  seem to turn to barefoot as a last resort when conventional methods haven't worked and they have usually ended up with a sound horse at the end of it all.  It would be the route I would take first now.


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## LucyPriory (12 September 2010)

OP - I just want to give you a big hug (I do great hugs!).

Just reviewed the last few posts in your previous thread where you are worrying about cost and other injuries.

I admit I have a lot of experience, so can be a bit 'oh it's easy' when for newbies it is anything but.

However - it is easy if you do it just one step/one day at a time and take lots of deep breaths..........

I use the acronym D.E.T.E.C3.T to help clients remember what they need to do to be successful in their barefoot journey.  Diet is where people usually fail, and usually only when on full livery, because then they don't have full control.

Most of my clients are not wealthy, some very much not so.  But we always find a way round that one.  Barefoot is not about buying a healthy horse, it is about growing one. And it's all in the attitude, the best barefoot clients are those who have a 'can do' approach and take responsibility.

As for the other injuries, you know, mostly I find they get so much less of a problem when the horse can grow the foot it needs rather than the one dictated by the shoe.

Just one example - much against my better judgement I took on a horse (destined for meat) to rehab.  My OH intended it should mend my broken heart because my old horse had just died in the most dreadful of circumstances.

Well my attitude has been 'well if we can fix this, we can pretty much fix anything' in that Grace has EPSM, is very prone to laminitis, is allergic to vaccinations and reacts badly to wormers and had been very badly handled too.

If I had 'tried' I could probably have had her diagnosed 'navicular' too, owing to chronic caudal heel pain from thrush and corns.  But I tend not to go that route these days.

Anyhow a year later and she is very 'fixed' and the nice/but awful thing is I have completely fallen for her.  So much for the rehab project....

So good luck, don't panic and all the best.


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## GMR (12 September 2010)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/album.php?albumid=822&pictureid=4823

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/picture.php?albumid=822&pictureid=4822 http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/picture.php?albumid=822&pictureid=4821
My horse is in the same position, what do you think, lame since march.


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## LucyPriory (12 September 2010)

GMR - these feet don't appear to have as many issues as the OP.  But I would advise you get a second opinion from good barefoot trimmer.

Never liked wedges. Dealing with symptoms and an apparent inability to correctly trim a foot.


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## GMR (12 September 2010)

Thanks Lucy,
I seem to spend most of my time crying at the moment.. my boy has been to RVC , but they can only find bruising on the navicular an no damage to soft tissue, there are changes on the navicular, but his still very lame, (6/10) He has had an MRI.
I have had him 11 years, (his 15) and had a new farrier for one year...maybe its that.
Now the RVC are shoeing him but he is a little better but not much..
Feeling like just taking him  to  the place in exmoor that does barefoot rehab..I love him so much and its heartbreaking and the mo,
G xx


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## LucyPriory (12 September 2010)

GMR I will pm you


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## viola (12 September 2010)

Sorry for late reply but was working all day - thank you for all your views and for taking the time to respond. I must say I am slightly shocked by the consistency of your negative comments as this horse is under very professional care including a vet specialising in orthopaedic issues. 
The boy's feet were very bad to start with that's true. 

I will keep you informed on how he is doing. 
I should also add: the wedges are only temporary as we are awaiting different shoes that are made to measure for him. He had egg bar shoes for several months and only improved in the first 2 weeks or so, then went lame again. 

I am very tempted to try barefoot but there is a lot of other factors involved which I don't want to discuss on open forum. 
Once again thank you and if anyone has any more success stories and/or additional info about the diet - examples?? please do post.


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## viola (12 September 2010)

LucyPriory said:



			OP - I just want to give you a big hug (I do great hugs!).

Just reviewed the last few posts in your previous thread where you are worrying about cost and other injuries.

I admit I have a lot of experience, so can be a bit 'oh it's easy' when for newbies it is anything but.

However - it is easy if you do it just one step/one day at a time and take lots of deep breaths..........

I use the acronym D.E.T.E.C3.T to help clients remember what they need to do to be successful in their barefoot journey.  Diet is where people usually fail, and usually only when on full livery, because then they don't have full control.

Most of my clients are not wealthy, some very much not so.  But we always find a way round that one.  Barefoot is not about buying a healthy horse, it is about growing one. And it's all in the attitude, the best barefoot clients are those who have a 'can do' approach and take responsibility.

As for the other injuries, you know, mostly I find they get so much less of a problem when the horse can grow the foot it needs rather than the one dictated by the shoe.

Just one example - much against my better judgement I took on a horse (destined for meat) to rehab.  My OH intended it should mend my broken heart because my old horse had just died in the most dreadful of circumstances.

Well my attitude has been 'well if we can fix this, we can pretty much fix anything' in that Grace has EPSM, is very prone to laminitis, is allergic to vaccinations and reacts badly to wormers and had been very badly handled too.

If I had 'tried' I could probably have had her diagnosed 'navicular' too, owing to chronic caudal heel pain from thrush and corns.  But I tend not to go that route these days.

Anyhow a year later and she is very 'fixed' and the nice/but awful thing is I have completely fallen for her.  So much for the rehab project....

So good luck, don't panic and all the best.
		
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Thank you very much for this post!


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## mrdarcy (12 September 2010)

GMR said:



			Thanks Lucy,
I seem to spend most of my time crying at the moment.. my boy has been to RVC , but they can only find bruising on the navicular an no damage to soft tissue, there are changes on the navicular, but his still very lame, (6/10) He has had an MRI.
I have had him 11 years, (his 15) and had a new farrier for one year...maybe its that.
Now the RVC are shoeing him but he is a little better but not much..
Feeling like just taking him  to  the place in exmoor that does barefoot rehab..I love him so much and its heartbreaking and the mo,
G xx
		
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I really feel for you. We love these horses and want to do whats best for them but sometimes nothing seems to work. Honestly with this horse too barefoot is the way forwards. Those heels are so underun - taking the shoes off will return circulation to the area and strengthen the heels so that the foot can function naturally again. I bet the results of taking the shoes off will astonish you. Respect the healing power of nature!


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## NicoleS_007 (12 September 2010)

Not a fan of wedges tbh!!! Mine has a chipped navicular bone and under vet and professional farrier recommendation we went with the wedges but mine had more heel support. He was so sore with them he refused to go forwards under saddle and bucked constantly. They were removed after 6 weeks as they were making him worse and three farriers who looked at him said get them off or he'd be crippled in a year!!! So new farrier replaced them with concussion pads and normal shoes, legs swollen and sore for a week then sound


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## Andalucian (12 September 2010)

viola said:



			I am very tempted to try barefoot but there is a lot of other factors involved which I don't want to discuss on open forum. 
Once again thank you and if anyone has any more success stories and/or additional info about the diet - examples?? please do post.
		
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I totally understand your "other factors", its not an easy decision and we each have to balance what we can do in our own circumstances.

Eggbar shoes won't work either (tried them too) just temporary relief, as you found out I think earlier.  Diet may be an issue, but without removing the shoes, balancing the foot and allowing the heels to spread again diet changes won't help.

All the best and if you want trimmer recommendations I'll do my best to assist you.


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## Andalucian (12 September 2010)

GMR said:



http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/album.php?albumid=822&pictureid=4823

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/picture.php?albumid=822&pictureid=4822 http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/picture.php?albumid=822&pictureid=4821
My horse is in the same position, what do you think, lame since march.
		
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hi GMR, your farrier is much more skilled but the basic problems are still there.  Heels far too long and underrun, left fore more than right fore.  Again, my approach would be the same, shoes off, deep shavings bed at night, turn out in the day, soft hoof boots to get him to and from the stable across any challenging ground.  I would expect these feet to recover rather quickly to be honest.


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## LucyPriory (12 September 2010)

But lame since march is possibly quite revealing - esp if your yard turns out during the day onto ex dairy grass.


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## Andalucian (12 September 2010)

Yes, quite right Lucy


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## cptrayes (12 September 2010)

viola said:



			I must say I am slightly shocked by the consistency of your negative comments as this horse is under very professional care including a vet specialising in orthopaedic issues.
		
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Heaven help us! 

If you have an orthopaedic expert who failed to comment on the fact that your horse, diagnosed with pain originating in the heel, has been shod so short that his heels are overhanging the back of his shoes/wedges by a big margin, there is no hope for us ordinary mortals who depend on this so-called "expert" advice. I'd go so far as to suggest that both the farrier and the orthopaedic vet have been incompetent with regard to your horse and that one or both could do with being reported to their governing bodies.

Some people wonder why I seem so anti vets and farriers. This is a great example! The shame is that there are great vets and great farriers, but this work is letting all vets and farriers down, because no-one knows who they can actually trust when "experts" charge you for such appalling work!


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## foxy1 (13 September 2010)

I have always found vets to be unwilling to comment on even obviously very poor shoeing.

Just one example of many:
A few years ago I had a part livery that was blatently very badly shod.(yes I spoke to the owner but the farrier was the 'expert'). When the horse went lame enough and vet came out he just refused to state the glaringly obvious- it was the feet! After nerve blocks of course it showed pain in the foot, remedial farriery got the horse sound again eventually. (different farrier)

In those days I used to feel sooooo angry and frustrated by it but now I know its sadly par for the course.


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## soloequestrian (13 September 2010)

To add to the negativity:  that is a horrendous shoeing job.  I'm fairly anti-shoes at the best of times, but those ones just look like instruments of torture.
You might find 'No Foot, No Horse' by Gail Williams and Martin Deacon an interesting read if you are going to carry on shoeing, although it's quite an old book it has some good stuff on how foot balance affects the rest of the body.
For barefoot, look at 'Feet First' by Barker and Braithwaite, Pete Ramey's stuff on the web (free!) and Jaime Jackson's books.


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## Orangehorse (13 September 2010)

Shouldn't the wedges be removed/shoes removed in 2 stages, so the horse can adapt to the different balance?  Not all in one  go when there might be a danger to the horse's tendons, etc.


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## viola (13 September 2010)

soloequestrian said:



			To add to the negativity:  that is a horrendous shoeing job.  I'm fairly anti-shoes at the best of times, but those ones just look like instruments of torture.
You might find 'No Foot, No Horse' by Gail Williams and Martin Deacon an interesting read if you are going to carry on shoeing, although it's quite an old book it has some good stuff on how foot balance affects the rest of the body.
For barefoot, look at 'Feet First' by Barker and Braithwaite, Pete Ramey's stuff on the web (free!) and Jaime Jackson's books.
		
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Just ordered this book, thank you.


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## viola (13 September 2010)

ORANGEHORSE said:



			Shouldn't the wedges be removed/shoes removed in 2 stages, so the horse can adapt to the different balance?  Not all in one  go when there might be a danger to the horse's tendons, etc.
		
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He's only had the wedges in since Thursday and they are to be temporary and replaced with aluminium shoes? 
Either way, we are now looking into having a barefoot specialist/farrier barefoot friendly coming to see him.


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## ferrador (13 September 2010)

your horse needs shoeing properly . the shoes are too small and fitted too tight , the pads need removing ,the feet need dressing and balancing correctly and a pair of shoes need applying that fit . dont go the barefoot route problems such as you are experiencing need both proper foot dressing and the application of shoes correctly to benefit both the horse and yourself .


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## Orangehorse (13 September 2010)

OK.  I knew a horse that had been in wedges for a time and went barefoot, but the trimmer said initially to remove the shoes over 2 shoeing cycles, to allow the legs, tendons, etc. to adapt to the new balance and the loss of the wedges.

Read the book, you will be amazed at some of the stories and what the barefoot horses can do.

Good photos.


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## ihatework (13 September 2010)

OMG, I'm really diheartened. I recognise that yard, CE right?
I am seriously considering taking my horse there early next year on livery. My only concerns were that the YM were insisting that I HAD to use their vet & farrier and there was no option to use my own. Having seen that shoeing I am now really really worried, if I were to box to forge for farrier do you think this would be acceptable to YM?

I really do hope you get your horse to come right, if you are going to put shoes on your horse you really need to address the correct breakover and heel support, you need at least another cm in length on those shoes. I'd suggest quarter clips and rolled toes and extra length at heel. If you can convince the yard to get another farrier there try Karn Herbert or Adam Young, both are local and get them rather than their apprentices. If you can't get another farrier in or box out, then yes exploring barefoot route would be my next step.


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## viola (13 September 2010)

Hi, yes it is but I wasn't aware of such clause on livery??! It's a lovely yard and we had other vets looking at the horse without any problem from YM??


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## ihatework (13 September 2010)

Good news on the vet front!
Fingers crossed the same applies to farriers, if so then I will be very keen to move there as the yard really does look superb.


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## viola (13 September 2010)

Thank you for the farrier recommendation too, we had Karn shoeing him before :-( it's so disheartening as you want to do best by your horse and try to trust people who have the knowledge and experience, you go against your gut instincts and sacrifice a lot only to end up with a horse deteriorating further :-((


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## viola (13 September 2010)

ihatework said:



			Good news on the vet front!
Fingers crossed the same applies to farriers, if so then I will be very keen to move there as the yard really does look superb.
		
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I'm not sure re farrier but hope not ...btw earlier photos on my other thread are Karn's shoeing. It was heavily criticised on here too. Horse hasn't been sound since aug 2009.


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## ferrador (13 September 2010)

dress and balance the feet correctly, fit a wide web section shoe with a rockered toe , upright heels with plenty of lenght and width from the heel nails back . this is not rocket science and any farrier should shoe to this basic standard as a matter of course . do not use 1/4 clips for more than 2 shoeing cycles but that is my opinion from practice


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## cptrayes (13 September 2010)

Ferrador maybe it is because you are in Portugal but you are well out of date with regards to barefoot in the UK. There is a commercial rehab yard which now has a long track record of sorting foot-lameness in horses which have already been through the shoeing and medication routes and are still lame. And there are now dozens of individuals like myself who have done the same thing with single horses. This horse looks, from the photos, as if he would benefit immensely from being allowed to balance his feet the way that his body needs.


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## ferrador (13 September 2010)

i live in portugal ,i am employed and work through out europe with my clients and many veterinary practices . i see firsthand a lot more than you, and my own and many others experiences are not good ,i have plenty of equine working without shoes ,i am not biased either way  ,but this latest fad to have hit the uk is not new and its all been done before , the presentation is new and very professional too but a lot of genuine horse folk soon see through the baloney been given to them . when was the last time you saw one of these preacher barefoot ? they should practice what they preach and stop protecting their own feet ,the principal is exactly the same ,  be realistic its about earning money


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## mrdarcy (13 September 2010)

ferrador said:



			i live in portugal ,i am employed and work through out europe with my clients and many veterinary practices . i see firsthand a lot more than you, and my own and many others experiences are not good ,i have plenty of equine working without shoes ,i am not biased either way  ,but this latest fad to have hit the uk is not new and its all been done before , the presentation is new and very professional too but a lot of genuine horse folk soon see through the baloney been given to them . when was the last time you saw one of these preacher barefoot ? they should practice what they preach and stop protecting their own feet ,the principal is exactly the same ,  be realistic its about earning money
		
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Probably going to regret this but what baloney in particular are you referring to?


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## cptrayes (13 September 2010)

ferrador said:



			i live in portugal ,i am employed and work through out europe with my clients and many veterinary practices . i see firsthand a lot more than you, and my own and many others experiences are not good ,i have plenty of equine working without shoes ,i am not biased either way  ,but this latest fad to have hit the uk is not new and its all been done before , the presentation is new and very professional too but a lot of genuine horse folk soon see through the baloney been given to them . when was the last time you saw one of these preacher barefoot ? they should practice what they preach and stop protecting their own feet ,the principal is exactly the same ,  be realistic its about earning money
		
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I take personal offence at that comment. I have so far spent £700 this year rehabilitating a horse which was 24 hours from being put to sleep due to his poor quality of life. He had adequan, tildren, HLA bursa injection and bar shoes and HE WAS STILL LAME with navicular disease diagnosed from radiographs. 

It took me under 11 weeks with a barefoot rehabilitation to have him fit to compete dressage, where he nearly won a national qualifier. In under 3 months he was jumping on a six mile farm ride on very hard dry ground. After six months he is giving his new carers, to whom I have given him on permanent loan, immense enjoyment and is as sound as a pound. THese timescales are far from unusual.

This is NOT a fad. We are, between us, returning DOZENS of horses which vets and farriers have completely given up on to full work and happy lives. 

And in answer to your irrelevant query about barefoot trimmers, one of them does go shoeless consistently, yes, and another has a partner who runs without shoes. Like humans, horses weren't born with shoes on and can, as humans do, build callouses to cope with any surface, as my horses do.

YOU are blinkered and out of date. If your experiences are not good, perhaps you need to come over to the UK and see how it can be made to work, for the good of the lame horses you are dealing with?


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## ferrador (13 September 2010)

the barefoot presentation baloney


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## mrdarcy (13 September 2010)

ferrador said:



			the barefoot presentation baloney
		
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Expand please?


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## ferrador (13 September 2010)

mrdarcy i do not know who you are but i would put :
1- my uk,european and world recognised qualifications
2 my footcare practices
3 my experience  ,
against any you could possibly hope to offer other than your ability to sell snow to eskimos . you have got to be one a bua by the typical response you came out with


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## soloequestrian (13 September 2010)

How odd... shades of http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=397221&page=5?  Have never heard 'BUA' anywhere else!


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## mrdarcy (13 September 2010)

soloequestrian said:



			How odd... shades of http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=397221&page=5?  Have never heard 'BUA' anywhere else!
		
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Lol - that's hilarious! 

Okay ferrador can you please answer the following:

1) What are your qualifications?
2) Your footcare practises?
3) Your experience?


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## ferrador (13 September 2010)

maybe its my experience that tells me mrdarcy is a barefoot guru . i know i am new on the scene ,but i smell something fishy here


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## mrdarcy (13 September 2010)

ferrador said:



			maybe its my experience that tells me mrdarcy is a barefoot guru . i know i am new on the scene ,but i smell something fishy here
		
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Hummmm... so do I!!!  

Lets keep this thread on track - so far it has been open and pleasant, lets keep it that way.


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## cptrayes (13 September 2010)

ferrador said:



			maybe its my experience that tells me mrdarcy is a barefoot guru . i know i am new on the scene ,but i smell something fishy here
		
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Ferrador reminds me of a Horizon programme I remember watching about 30 years ago. It was about an inexperienced researcher who had identified that the cause of stomach ulcers in humans was a bacteria - helicobacter pylori. The rest of the programme was stuffed full of consultants and experts who "knew" that stomach ulcers were caused by excess acid production and stress and explained why he was wrong. Over the following few years it became obvious that it was the experts who were wrong and the novice researcher was right. Treatment for stomach ulcers these days is antibiotics, to kill off the helicobacter pylori. 

Ferrador, you are such an "expert" and so well qualified that you are closing your eyes to the fact that in Britain there are DOZENS of us who know how to cure navicular syndrome horses that the "expert" vets and farriers have failed to get sound with conventional methods. When you develop a little more humility, there are plenty of us who, for the sake of the horse, would be glad to show you what we have been doing. 

The first place I would start, if I were you, is to look at the typical Iberian hoof, with a round upright shape, and wonder whether the fact that the frog is usually suspended somewhere in space, a good distance above anywhere it could be ground-bearing, has any impact on the fact that you are seeing so many barefoot failures in Portugal???


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## ferrador (13 September 2010)

mrdarcy ,i am working i england in 3 weeks time , i can visit you then and dicuss whatever about foot care . the answer to your question (typical bua by the way ) is a lot more than anything you could possibly contrive . fact . as a matter of vinterest have vyou ever been to america ?


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## cptrayes (13 September 2010)

Question for you Ferrador:

If the qualifications and experience of all the vets of one of the most well regarded veterinary practices in this country could not get my rehab horse sound, but I, a completely unqualified amateur, could -

tell me

what the hell use were those qualifications and experience?

The only thing that counts here is results. We have sound barefoot ex-navicular horses time and again and you don't? I think we know something you don't, don't you?


ps I'm still waiting for an apology for your suggestion that I was only in this for money.


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## Spinal Tap (13 September 2010)

Oh dear, why does this sort of falling out keep happening?  We all want the same thing - sound horses!  There doesn't seem to be 100% understanding & consensus out there about exactly how the hoof functions (one barefoot trimmer I correspond with had never heard of KC LaPierre's hoof dynamics theory, so I guess it's not universally accepted) & there are differences between different 'schools' of barefoot trimming, as well as between barefoot folk & farriers.  Doesn't that mean that we are all still learning, and there might be stuff that is well worth knowing in all sorts of different approaches.  From where I'm sat that also means that what is being taught now is not necessarily the final word on the subject.  Qualifications - of farriers and EPs - are all very well, but being open minded and learning from our own experiences and those of others is the best way to make progress IMO.  

I don't think that anybody here can be demonstrably right - none of the protagonists here are likely to get the opportunity to try their preferred methods out on this particular horse any time soon, so this debate is pretty much theoretical from where I'm sitting.  That said, I'd be interested to hear it - but please, without everyone falling out


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## soloequestrian (13 September 2010)

I think I'm getting whiff of troll..... irritating posts designed to get a reaction and without any real substance, just 'I'm far more experienced than you are, you couldn't possibly hope to understand'.....

perhaps we should have a collective rise above and ignore?


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## quirky (13 September 2010)

Really ?? ... with 3000+ posts between them.


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## soloequestrian (13 September 2010)

quirky said:



			Really ?? ... with 3000+ posts between them.
		
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I'm assuming that's a deliberate misunderstanding?  Just in case, the posters I was referring to have a grand total of 43 posts between them.


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## quirky (13 September 2010)

soloequestrian said:



			I'm assuming that's a deliberate misunderstanding?  Just in case, the posters I was referring to have a grand total of 43 posts between them.
		
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Nope , guess I've read it differently to you .


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## GMR (13 September 2010)

Andalucian said:



			hi GMR, your farrier is much more skilled but the basic problems are still there.  Heels far too long and underrun, left fore more than right fore.  Again, my approach would be the same, shoes off, deep shavings bed at night, turn out in the day, soft hoof boots to get him to and from the stable across any challenging ground.  I would expect these feet to recover rather quickly to be honest.
		
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Thats very clever of you Andalucian..he is 6/10 lame on the left fore and 2to 3/10 lame on the right!!! He has no damage to Navicular just bruising apparently. Don't know how the vets will feel if I go against them and take his shoes off for a bit!!!


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## GMR (13 September 2010)

LucyPriory said:



			But lame since march is possibly quite revealing - esp if your yard turns out during the day onto ex dairy grass.
		
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Sorry never stayed online last night, so why is rich grass a factor? Is it a laminitis thing?
Sorry for being thick!!


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## Andalucian (13 September 2010)

GMR said:



			Thats very clever of you Andalucian..he is 6/10 lame on the left fore and 2to 3/10 lame on the right!!! He has no damage to Navicular just bruising apparently. Don't know how the vets will feel if I go against them and take his shoes off for a bit!!!
		
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I've learnt a thing or two along the way ;-)  You'd be surprised how positive some vets and farriers are if you suggest removing the shoes for a while, their problem is that they can't suggest it to you because although they're hearing it might be successful, its as yet clinically unproven, so they're not insured if they make the suggestion (if you see what I mean).

Your horse would be one that I'd see coming right and being able to wear shoes again once the feet are where they should be, they're not very worrying to me.  Google the internet for cure for navicular and see what you find.
All the best.


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## Andalucian (13 September 2010)

Ferrador is behaving like a Troll, I'm not going to engage in any debate unless he changes his approach.  Please consider doing the same.


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## LucyPriory (13 September 2010)

GMR said:



			Sorry never stayed online last night, so why is rich grass a factor? Is it a laminitis thing?
Sorry for being thick!!
		
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Not thick at all. 

for a good (albeit technical at times) website about grass go to www.safergrass.org


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## cumbriamax (13 September 2010)

hey everyone-can I have a definition of navicular for a simpleton like me also does anyone know if it passes on to foals from mares, a stud near me has a stunning warmblood mare with a colt foal they want to sell as a potential breeding stallion.. wot does everyone think?:


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## cptrayes (13 September 2010)

cumbriamax said:



			hey everyone-can I have a definition of navicular for a simpleton like me also does anyone know if it passes on to foals from mares, a stud near me has a stunning warmblood mare with a colt foal they want to sell as a potential breeding stallion.. wot does everyone think?:

Click to expand...

There is research which has been quoted in a similar discussion previously that poor quality of the navicular bone is heritable in continental warmbloods.

BUT

There is also evidence that navicular disease (changes to the navicular bone) is caused by lesions in the deep digital flexor tendon inside the foot and that this in turn is caused by a toe first landing. The primary cause of a toe first landing appears to be shoes, since sound and working barefoot horses land heel first.

The other things that cause back-of-the-foot (caudal to use the posh term) pain are collateral ligament damage and impar ligament damage and they are caused primarily by foot imbalance.

Lastly, there is little evidence that poor navicular bone quality causes lameness. My vets have always told me that if you xrayed 100 horses, more than half of them would show changes to the navicular bone and most of them would  be perfectly sound. There is a very tenuous link between radiographic changes to the navicular bone and degree, or even existence, of lameness.

Nowt wrong with breeding from that colt, I reckon. (but don't go shouting about his mother, people are so superstitious!)


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## cumbriamax (13 September 2010)

thankyou


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## MerrySherryRider (13 September 2010)

Ah, must be luck that my navicular horse is now happy and sound due to the work of my remedial farrier and vet who work together at each shoeing. A few months ago, this horse was so distressed that everyone thought she should be shot.
 The BUA crew at my former yard actually took barefoot trimmers into her field to discuss her care. No one with a correspondance course and a weekend workshop as their training was going anywhere near my horse.
 A specialist vet and a former army farrier having worked with the latest research and technology and full time experience of many hundreds of such cases seem to be doing the job for us. 
 Both were depressed at the thought that, as her owner, pressure had been put on me to go barefoot. Incidently, same farrier has happily removed the front shoes of my other horse and is glad to trim him as needed. Doesn't charge if he doesn't need much doing either.


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## cptrayes (13 September 2010)

I'm very pleased it worked for you horserider. Can you tell us what gave your horse navicular?


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## MerrySherryRider (13 September 2010)

cptrayes said:



			I'm very pleased it worked for you horserider. Can you tell us what gave your horse navicular?
		
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A BSJA and AES mare, she was jumped into the ground before I had her.


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## cptrayes (14 September 2010)

So are lots of them but they don't all get navicular. Anything particular? Long toes and collapsed heels is always a good one. I hope it continues to work for you, but if she deteriorates again, as some of them do, at least you'll have a fallback option. If you are forced to take it (rather than  have her retired or put down) you will now find trimmers with serious training who can help you if your farrier can't. I don't think any of us would recommend rehabbing a damaged horse using someone "with a correspondance course and a weekend workshop as their training".


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## the watcher (14 September 2010)

good grief cptrayes, change the record!

Your constant drone that shoes are the root of all evil is really very dull.

some horses are badly shod, some will develop an underrun heel, some just have misshapen feet or poor hoof quality anyway.

and sometimes a good farrier and SHOES are actually part of the cure

If you can't see that you are in danger of being regarded as a complete crank and then even if you have something useful to contribute it will be disregarded

like your ulcer comparison though...do you see yourself as a barefoot disciple?

Now that is cranky!


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## soloequestrian (14 September 2010)

the watcher said:



			good grief cptrayes, change the record!

Your constant drone that shoes are the root of all evil is really very dull.

some horses are badly shod, some will develop an underrun heel, some just have misshapen feet or poor hoof quality anyway.

and sometimes a good farrier and SHOES are actually part of the cure

If you can't see that you are in danger of being regarded as a complete crank and then even if you have something useful to contribute it will be disregarded

like your ulcer comparison though...do you see yourself as a barefoot disciple?

Now that is cranky!
		
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So when someone takes the time to explain their point of view in a detailed way, with amazing patience, repeatedly, they become boring?


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## cptrayes (14 September 2010)

If you don't like what I write, put me on ignore. But the last time I looked we were still living in a country which believes in freedom of speech.

Meanwhile, there are at least two horses belonging to people who use this forum which are well on the way to full health barefoot, having been written off by their vets and farriers. The owners of those two horses have thanked me for the information and support I have given and while owners like that still exist, and while horses can be saved from an unnecessary death or premature retirement, and their owners can be saved from the heartache of a long term lame horse, then I will continue to write whether you like it or not.

You clearly haven't read all my posts (I'm not suggesting that you should have) because if you had you will see that I am far from anti shoes where a horse cannot be kept sound barefoot. Many owners don't have the facilities or time to get their particular horse fully comfortable barefoot. Some riders feel that they need studs. I have written more than once, better a well shod horse than an unsound barefoot one. 

There are dozens, probably well into three figures by now, of people of people who have resolved serious lameness problems in their horses that shoes and medication could not resolve. I am one of them. I am not unique. I am not special. I am not even uncommon. 

That's the whole point.


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## ferrador (14 September 2010)

20% of the horse under our care do not have shoes , so i am not anti barefoot . typical bua response , if you dont like what i say shut up . freedom of speech for you but if you dont like the response we have to shut up ,your rantings might be new to the uk , but the rest bof vthe world has been hearing the baloney now for a lot longer and it is getting tedious . if you read my posts instead of scanning them so you can have an arguement (typical bua again ) you will have read that i live in portugal and practice my profession in many places including the uk . stop turning things around and look to blame others for wanting an arguement you are the problem with your one dimensional view on lameness issues


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## Fourlegsgood (14 September 2010)

LucyPriory said:



			..... and significant infection of frog/central sulcus.  Horrible contraction too, but that is a combination of poor quality shoeing and the infection (which is also in part down to the shoeing.)
		
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My horse had similar infected central sulcus which made the horse sore enough in the heels to try to land the foot toe first and trip in navicular fashion. Just mentioning this in case you have got this going on as well as anything else.


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## Laura1812 (14 September 2010)

I have a navicular horse who was written off by one of the countrys leading equine vet practices and one of the leading farriers after having all the conventional treatments.

Last night I had my first trot on him barefoot and he was as sound as a pound.

If he didnt go barefoot, he would be dead by now.


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## mrdarcy (14 September 2010)

Great to hear about another success story Laura! I bet that trot felt amazing!


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## Laura1812 (14 September 2010)

mrdarcy said:



			Great to hear about another success story Laura! I bet that trot felt amazing!
		
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Yes it did - the poor boy couldnt even walk properly when i got him  

It was the best feeling in the world.

I see him in the mornings now come cantering up the field with my young TB, bucking and farting and I have to pinch myself to remind me that it is actually still the same sad pathetic creature that i collected a year ago

So, BUA - bring it on!!


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## cptrayes (14 September 2010)

Fantastic, Laura. We should have a party with all our rehabs!


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## Laura1812 (14 September 2010)

cptrayes said:



			Fantastic, Laura. We should have a party with all our rehabs!
		
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Give me another couple of months and we could have a fun ride!!

The one fantastic bonus to this horse is that I have the vets reports and x-rays from when he was diagnosed - he is being re-xrayed in the next few weeks and I will get my vet to do another report and send to the original vets.

I just hope if nothing else it will show them that there is another way, with the evidence to prove it.

I spoke to the original vet who diagnosed it and all she said was that I should PTS and he was a hopeless case.


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## dressagecrazy (14 September 2010)

I feel for the OP it's really hard to know what to do for the best sometimes, im going through a similar thing with my Comp horse atm. It's not Navicular but a damaged Impar ligament. We are currently shoeing with Eggbars with Frog support & Equipak to try to reduce concussion.

However there is a lot of sway to go barefoot with this horse as well, Im more than happy with my horses farrier though & im extremely confident with his work. So im trying the Shoes for the time being but i may be going barefoot, but if i do it will be with my Farrier.

Being honest i would be far from happy with the hooves shown in the pictures there is a lot wrong with that shoeing & im far from an expert but luckily i get to see good shoeing so bad stuff tends to stand out.

I wish you luck OP but i would be sacking that farrier imediately.


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## traceyann (15 September 2010)

Im not getting in a slagging match here and i think its wrong to so do you not think this girl is going though enough without us ripping each others head of we all have are own opinons it dosent mean there right or wrong their just ours so please only give the best advice we can for the poor girl she must be going though hell


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## viola (16 September 2010)

dressagecrazy said:



			I feel for the OP it's really hard to know what to do for the best sometimes, im going through a similar thing with my Comp horse atm. It's not Navicular but a damaged Impar ligament. We are currently shoeing with Eggbars with Frog support & Equipak to try to reduce concussion.

However there is a lot of sway to go barefoot with this horse as well, Im more than happy with my horses farrier though & im extremely confident with his work. So im trying the Shoes for the time being but i may be going barefoot, but if i do it will be with my Farrier.

Being honest i would be far from happy with the hooves shown in the pictures there is a lot wrong with that shoeing & im far from an expert but luckily i get to see good shoeing so bad stuff tends to stand out.

I wish you luck OP but i would be sacking that farrier imediately.
		
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Thank you and hope you will find a way to rehab your horse's injury too - I have seen your photos and your horse is stunning and so talented.

I would like to thank you for all the advice and PMs - I spent last week reading all I could find on the subject. I'm overwhelmed by your response and the will to help, thank you ever so much again. 
Personally I am open minded as far as shoeing goes and I wouldn't keep every horse barefoot by default but it looks like for our horse and in this moment in time it's either barefoot or PTS. 
The latter has been crossed off...We contacted someone and made some decisions. As soon as it's all finalised I will post an update


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## viola (16 September 2010)

traceyann said:



			Im not getting in a slagging match here and i think its wrong to so do you not think this girl is going though enough without us ripping each others head of we all have are own opinons it dosent mean there right or wrong their just ours so please only give the best advice we can for the poor girl she must be going though hell
		
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Thank you. 
Fortunately, I've been on this Forum for long enough to learn to take the advice and ignore the arguments.


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## Clodagh (16 September 2010)

I have today got at my yard a 16.2 ID x mare with navicular, confirmed by scans at Rossdales. She has wedges on at the moment, which are coming off tomorrow. She has been given to a friend.
I think it has been 'caused' by really bad farriery, the horses at the yard where she is shod all have terribly shaped feet, constantly pull their shoes off and get bruised soles. I have always had my horses shod, never barefoot, but I have never had any of those problems.
Anyway, shes a lovely mare and hopefully my farrier will get on top of it. He has seen her feet and thinks she can be fine, but needs a radical reshape which will take time.
I haven't read all the middle pages so may have missed out on some bickering but heres to hoping both yours and mine are sound soon.


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## viola (16 September 2010)

All the best with your mare too!


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## brucea (16 September 2010)

Good luck with your barefoot journey Voila - hope it works for your horse. 

I've met some horses that it has worked very well for.

But just to give something to think about look at this - this was the shoe that came off that foot after a period of increasing unsoundness - look how much the back of the hoof has changed. That's what should have been at the back of that foot - but it couldn't develop when he was shod.


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## viola (16 September 2010)

That's amazing! Thank you for posting this!


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## LucyPriory (16 September 2010)

For another 'take' on shoes fitting feet see

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/shoe-should-fit-foot.html

and maybe

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/07/cant-see-foot-for-shoes.html


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## viola (16 September 2010)

Thank you LucyPriory - will have a read


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## Luciejjkk (17 September 2010)

I cant offer any advice as am still trying to find some myself but I really hope your horse comes right for you.

My boy has navicular and I have tried everything (steriods, Tildren, Navilux, Egg Bars) and nothing has helped.


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## amandap (17 September 2010)

viola said:



			Personally I am open minded as far as shoeing goes and I wouldn't keep every horse barefoot by default but it looks like for our horse and in this moment in time it's either barefoot or PTS. 
The latter has been crossed off...We contacted someone and made some decisions. As soon as it's all finalised I will post an update 

Click to expand...

I'd like to wish you and your horse the best of luck with your decision.


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## viola (17 September 2010)

Luciejjkk said:



			I cant offer any advice as am still trying to find some myself but I really hope your horse comes right for you.

My boy has navicular and I have tried everything (steriods, Tildren, Navilux, Egg Bars) and nothing has helped.
		
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Sounds like our experiences... Have you tried barefoot?


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## viola (17 September 2010)

Thank you amandap - we have thought about it and after going back and forth we decided to send Kingsley to Rockley Farm so it's all done the best it can be. I will post updates and really really hope he can move sound afterwards...


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## foxy1 (17 September 2010)

Been following this post; fantastic news! I'd like to wish you all the best and will be following your story as I'm sure will lots of others


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## Lainey123 (17 September 2010)

viola said:



			Thank you amandap - we have thought about it and after going back and forth we decided to send Kingsley to Rockley Farm so it's all done the best it can be. I will post updates and really really hope he can move sound afterwards...
		
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ohhhhhhh, hello my horse is at Rockley, you would have met him Bailey W the big dun ! he is doing really well. He didn't have navicular but he had a collateral ligament damage 18 months ago and was on and off sound, so i thought i would give barefoot a go. Nic is great and if anyone can get him right she will. 
Lx


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## brucea (18 September 2010)

Brilliant Viola - very happy for you. I think you've made the right move there.

Nic's a real find, excellent horsewoman and has done some amazing things for the horses sent to her for rehab.

I look forward to hearing of Kingsley's progress.


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## criso (18 September 2010)

Frankie came back from Rockley about 10 weeks ago and he's going from strength to strength.  It's beautiful down there and I did enjoyed riding there when I visited.
He'll get fantastic care, Nic looks after them like her own.

Good luck - I'll look out for his progress on the blog.


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## Andalucian (18 September 2010)

viola said:



			Thank you amandap - we have thought about it and after going back and forth we decided to send Kingsley to Rockley Farm so it's all done the best it can be. I will post updates and really really hope he can move sound afterwards...
		
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Give yourself a big pat on the back, this is an excellent decision, I hope you come back to us to tell us how he's progressing in due course.


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## viola (18 September 2010)

Thank you all, it's a very daunting decision but definitely made and it's really good to hear all the positive stories 

He isn't there yet, we need to wait a week or so as he was shod recently. The aim is to go with him at the end of the month. We now need to organises transport, vet referral, physio's questionnaire etc. 

There will certainly be plenty of updates and I hope I will be able to post equally positive news as you all posting.


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## viola (18 September 2010)

criso said:



			Frankie came back from Rockley about 10 weeks ago and he's going from strength to strength.  It's beautiful down there and I did enjoyed riding there when I visited.
He'll get fantastic care, Nic looks after them like her own.

Good luck - I'll look out for his progress on the blog.
		
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Oh I think you must be the person Nic gave us the details of


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## viola (18 September 2010)

Hello Lainey123, Kingsley isn't there yet, will be going later this month  Good luck to your horse too!


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## cptrayes (18 September 2010)

I think you are quite likely to be riding a sound horse after 12 or so weeks at Rockley. Good luck!


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## viola (18 September 2010)

cptrayes said:



			I think you are quite likely to be riding a sound horse after 12 or so weeks at Rockley. Good luck!
		
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Sadly he has other problems than just feet but hopefully it will all improve to the level where he can lead a comfortable life.


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## amandap (18 September 2010)

viola said:



			Sadly he has other problems than just feet but hopefully it will all improve to the level where he can lead a comfortable life.
		
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I take my hat off to you for this thinking Viola. I do think you may well be pleasantly surprised how much he changes as his feet improve.


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## criso (18 September 2010)

viola said:



			Oh I think you must be the person Nic gave us the details of 

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I think so - feel free to get in touch if you have anything to ask.


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## touchstone (18 September 2010)

I think you've made a great decision too, and I'm sure that once the initial nerves have died down over it all you'll feel much better for doing something pro active for him.  I'm looking forwards to seeing how he progresses, let's hope he is another success story!   Good luck!


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## china (18 September 2010)

i havnt read all of the replies but i agree with the farrier, you need another farrier. mine has just been diagnosed with navicular and he has aluminium straight bar shoes on, he has them set back slightly supporting the heel and a good breakover. hes improved a huge amount but is also on danilon as well. i looked into the barefoot option also but he is in walk work and has extremley poor feet and is absolutley hopping lame barefoot. i cant bear to watch him hopping around, hoof boots arnt an option as he will/has pulled them off and hes having lateral extensions behind due to also being diagnosed with bone spavins and kissing spines, if you wish to talk further and exchange photos then please feel free to pm me.


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## cptrayes (18 September 2010)

China the thing which is special about Rockley is that it has an environment where no horse needs to be sore and where they very quickly become comfortable, allowing them to work and then cure themselves. If your farrier fails to get your horse off Danilon do look again at barefoot, done professionally in a rehab yard  if your horse's feet really are that bad. A barefoot spavined horse will, as I know from one of my own, grow its own lateral extensions and wedges.

Viola you are marvellous to spend money on his rehab like this when you don't have any expectation of doing more than to make him more comfortable. I hope, and look forward to hearing, that you are rewarded by improvement beyond your expectations, as many of us have been.


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## brucea (19 September 2010)

You may well find that getting the feet sorted out sorts other things out too

We found in one of my four barefoot boys that temperament improved enormously and general level of soundness improved, the effect of the spavins dissipated and he was altogether more comfortable. Much less spooky, itrritable and grumpy. Also when he was ridden, if you touched behind the saddle, he would buck - that's gone too.


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## EAST KENT (19 September 2010)

So,my mare..long gone now..was very low milage..developed navicular at 17 years;she managed gentle hacks for a while on bute.Then retired barefoot,never came sound ..so can you explain in what way a) she got it in the first place?   b) how she could have been helped?

  Her farrier always did a good job..bit fussy about that..and she was never overworked,far from it.When unshod her feet would break up on the walls.She was a connie,poss some tb.


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## amandap (19 September 2010)

I don't know EAST KENT. I'm not a professional or very experienced with many horses but I'll try and explain my understanding of how navicular develops. This is my understanding and I'm sure there are many factors involved as well as my description.

Horses lower leg is a sort of pulley system, tendons being the ropes and muscles higher up the leg, as well as lever forces of alignment of bones and tendon attachment, enable the lower leg to move without muscles in the lower leg.
Very simplified the pulley system is set up for a heel first or almost flat landing on the ground, when the horse lands toe first most of the time this pulley arrangement is put under stress. Crucially in my understanding the DDFT (deep digital flexor tendon) rubs on the navicular bone in toe first landing in a way that strains the whole pulley system so forces the structure is not designed for are produced.
The DDFT begins to become inflammed and eventually the abnormal friction degrades the tendon and then the bone leading to navicualr bone involvement seen on Xray in advanced cases.

Of course horses hooves are designed to land and push off in all directions to move over rough ground but if there is pain in that back half of the foot from eg. thrush, weak structures etc. then the horse will avoid putting full load onto that part of the hoof to aviod discomfort and put the horse into primarily toe first landing mode. I believe experiments were conducted many years ago simulating heel first and then toe first landings and navicular damage could not be reproduced with heel first landing and it always began with inflammation of the tendon not in the bone itself.

This is my current understanding of how some believe navicular develops but tbh I have no real idea is this is 100% correct it just makes total sense to me. 

A good reference is Pete Ramey's DVD series 'Under the horse' where he explains the pulley system with models making it easier to understand.

Diagram of hoof internal showing DDFT http://www.red-horse.biz/Hauptpunkte/tendon_injuries.html


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## cptrayes (19 September 2010)

East Kent I think you might actually be asking "so why did my mare not come sound barefoot then?"

There are lots of answers to this:

Because it was before MRI and your mare never had navicular disease/syndrome at all, but something else (the state of the navicular bone on radiographs bears very little relationship to the lameness of the horse, but it's all they had back then).

Your mare had thrush from standing in a field all day, preventing her from being comfortable heel first landing, which is a pre-requisite for recovery.

Your mare needed to work to build strong enough heels to give her a heel first landing and she was not in work, "work" being defined initially as walking in hand, possibly booted and padded, for a horse as bad as she was.

Your mare had collateral ligament damage or impar ligament damage from incorrectly balanced feet and although shoeless, her feet were  not balanced up, particularly because if she was not in work on abrasive surfaces she would not have been well placed to do that balancing for herself.

Because her diet was wrong and she was growing feet too weak to support her properly. This would be VERY common in a grass fed native pony doing no work to use up the calories, like a retired Connemara.

There are probably more answers to your question.

This statement:

"When unshod her feet would break up on the walls."

can often be translated as:

" when unshod her feet were left too long". 

Barefoot working feet look, and are, VERY short. Most breaking off at ground level is due to too much length of wall. If her feet broke further up her foot then she had poor attachment higher up, symptomatic of an incorrect diet or of disease (often cushings in a horse of the age of yours).


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## EAST KENT (19 September 2010)

CPT, Cush was trimmed every six weeks,her nav was x rayed and it was just like a bit of gorgonzola cheese;the result would have been chronic inflamation due to the tendon being irritated,at the end she was on four equipalazone per day..and still 30% or so lame. Nowadays I would have given your way a go in desparation,but you do smack a bit of the doggie homeopathic freaks I have run accross in life,while it may work for some ,it can be coincidence as well.


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## amandap (19 September 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			Nowadays I would have given your way a go in desparation,but you do smack a bit of the doggie homeopathic freaks I have run accross in life,while it may work for some ,it can be coincidence as well.

Click to expand...

Lol! I certainly do not profess to be expert but I don't think I'm dodgy either! lol Apologies to all if I've made BF thinking dodgy!
Look up Dr Robert Bowker, Prof. Chris Pollitt, and Farriers turned BF Trimmers Jaime Jackson, Pete Ramey, Gene Ovenik, K. C. La Pierre etc. etc. etc. etc.

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=2185


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## cptrayes (19 September 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			CPT, Cush was trimmed every six weeks,her nav was x rayed and it was just like a bit of gorgonzola cheese;the result would have been chronic inflamation due to the tendon being irritated,at the end she was on four equipalazone per day..and still 30% or so lame. Nowadays I would have given your way a go in desparation,but you do smack a bit of the doggie homeopathic freaks I have run accross in life,while it may work for some ,it can be coincidence as well.

Click to expand...

THIS:

"the result would have been chronic inflamation due to the tendon being irritated,"

is the wrong way around. It has been demonstrated in more than one piece of research that it is the problem with the deep digital flexor tendon which causes that damage to the navicular bone and not the other way around. The damage to the deep digital flexor tendon is caused by a toe first landing and there are a multitude of reasons why your mare might still have had a toe first landing when shoeless. 

You could have her trimmed as often as you like but if her feet were unhealthy due to her diet or an underlying metabolic condition you'd be p*ssing in the wind. 

Do your research please before accusing me of being a "dodgy homeopathic freak". You asked a question, slyly and obliquely as it happens, rather than directly, and you do not seem to like the answer, so like so many people, attack me personally. Frankly, I'm getting pretty fed up with these personal attacks.

You know nothing about me, what I contribute to society, whether I help other horse owners, whether I am a nice person, and yet you feel completely free to insult me. I wonder if you would do that face to face? Or if I knew your name as you know mine? I don't post anonymously. I happen to think that anonymous posting of personal criticism is a cowardly thing to do. 

To give you some insight into who I am, I do not believe in anything which cannot be demostrated scientifically, which includes homeopathy. I believe in barefoot because I have seen with my own eyes that done properly, it WORKS. What's more, it works in cases where every medical treatment known to man has failed. How much more proof do you need when some of the worst possible cases, recommended to be retired or put to sleep by vets, are being cured by complete amateurs like me?


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## LucyPriory (20 September 2010)

The research CPTrayes refers to is some of the better stuff on horses.  Conducted by people who do not have a feed supplement to sell, which helps.  And it is a long way from fluffy.

Fortunately hooves don't lie.  They don't have an agenda or a budget and no desire to make enough money to buy a new porche.  So they get better or they don't.

What is fortunate or maybe unfortunate depending on your point of view is that hooves are a reflection of our ability to manage our horses well.  The unfortunate bit being that some people are very unhappy about the feedback they get and some equine professionals are unable to deal with it too.


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## EAST KENT (20 September 2010)

Don`t think I did refer to you personally CPT as dodgey..just that if ANYONE,including trained qualified folk disagree with you you are "insulted". Get a life,discussion ,disagreement even is healthy. For Lord`s sake though don`t try politics ..you`d be terribly insulted then.


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## Andalucian (20 September 2010)

brucea said:



			You may well find that getting the feet sorted out sorts other things out too.
		
Click to expand...

That sprung to my mind too.  I have experience of this happening many times.


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## EAST KENT (20 September 2010)

Perhaps ,then,CPT could explain how a tendon (soft tissue) can cause damage to a piece of bone (hard tissue)??Can`t quite equate that one.


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## amandap (20 September 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			Perhaps ,then,CPT could explain how a tendon (soft tissue) can cause damage to a piece of bone (hard tissue)??Can`t quite equate that one.

Click to expand...

I obviously didn't explain clearly in my earlier post. The bone is damaged due to friction which initially inflames the tendon then damage is caused to the tendon and then bone. Unnatural friction, stresses can have a dramatic effect on bone over time. Think of a rope rubbing on rock in the same position... soft rock especially soon gets worn. This unnatural 'rubbing' happens everytime the horse moves it's foot so the effect builds up over time.

Do try and get your hands on Pete Ramey's DVD series it will help you understand with models. Sorry if this is seen as advertizing, I include this for information and learning.



Andalucian said:



			That sprung to my mind too.  I have experience of this happening many times.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, my TB who had dreadfully damaged flat cracked feet has totally changed shape... her huge front end is now less and balanced with a good backend. Her general demenour and temperament has chilled too, she is like a different horse.
Mind you I know if my feet hurt I feel very crabby!!

Mta... Link to titles of some of Dr Robert Bowker's research papers published. http://pathobiology.msu.edu/people/bowker.html


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## LucyPriory (20 September 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			Perhaps ,then,CPT could explain how a tendon (soft tissue) can cause damage to a piece of bone (hard tissue)??Can`t quite equate that one.

Click to expand...

Read this  http://www.hoofrehab.com/NavicularSyndrome.htm

Research has also shown that bits damage the bone in the majority of horses' mouthes, even though there is gum tissue in between and we are all riding with light hands aren't we?


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## amandap (20 September 2010)

Doh!! Better link LucyPriory.


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## viola (20 September 2010)

All these links are great, I've read more about hooves, shoeing and trimming in last 2 weeks than I have in 15 years of having horses which is a shame really. 
I find myself eyeing up ALL the horses' feet now! 

Kingsley is only 6 so perhaps there is still a decent chance for him to recover not only from ill shaped feet but other soundness issues too. Now, we need to organise the transport...anyone for a trip to Devon?


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## Laura1812 (20 September 2010)

Oh Viola you will have to be careful - you too are turning into a rasp weilding barefoot maniac - soon there will be no hope for you!!

I live in Devon


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## viola (20 September 2010)

Laura1812 said:



			Oh Viola you will have to be careful - you too are turning into a rasp weilding barefoot maniac - soon there will be no hope for you!!

I live in Devon 

Click to expand...

Eek! I know!


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## LucyPriory (20 September 2010)

eh - why do you have to go to Devon?

A well managed horse can get good feet just about anywhere. It is just easier in some places than others.

And blowing Grace's trumpet again.  Grace has the hardest hooves I've come across.  She  has two metabolic issues, is kept at livery with the worst possible hay/grass combo, on clay and came to me via a meat lorry because after 9 years of unsuccessful interventions her previous owners and vets gave up.

All it took was a better diet and a bit of sweat (mostly hers).

In fact I put off trimming her feet because it is such hard work   Instead I run her up and down stoney tracks twice a day............


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## viola (20 September 2010)

LucyPriory - Kingsley is going to Rockley Farm for his rehab. Neither me or my friend can afford to take the time to do it properly and I feel it's only fair we give him the best chance...


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## LucyPriory (20 September 2010)

Oh sorry _ I missed that bit.  Great idea to give them all the best possible.  Good for you guys to try this route - not an easy decision I am sure.

But important for other readers to know that it is not the only option, as not everyone can afford it and it would be a shame for a horse to be PTS because someone thought that the only way to deal with the issue was to shoe or send away.


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## cptrayes (20 September 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			Perhaps ,then,CPT could explain how a tendon (soft tissue) can cause damage to a piece of bone (hard tissue)??Can`t quite equate that one.

Click to expand...

Exactly the same way that a barber sharpens a cutthroat steel razor on a strap of leather. It also partly explains how horses can pound rough tarmac for hours a week and not wear their feet right out. There are many instances in material science where the softer material erodes the harder one.


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## LucyPriory (20 September 2010)

cptrayes said:



			Exactly the same way that a barber sharpens a cutthroat steel razor on a strap of leather. It also partly explains how horses can pound rough tarmac for hours a week and not wear their feet right out. There are many instances in material science where the softer material erodes the harder one.
		
Click to expand...

Oh so true.


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## china (20 September 2010)

i like the look of this place, if prince isnt sound by the end of the year i think i might send him here to give him a chance.


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## viola (21 September 2010)

I've just posted an update as a separate thread as we seemed to have built up quite a long conversation on here  I posted the photos of the shoes he has put on while he awaits the departure to Rockley Farm in early October http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=402459


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