# NEED ADVICE! LOOSING HOPE!



## Lana.H05 (28 June 2020)

I've had my Pure Pre Spanish gelding for over a year now. We had some set backs last year due to him arriving with ulcers. He's been sold on a couple times for his bolting and has been doing the exact same with me. I want to give him a forever home so I am just trying to be patient and keep things positive. His schooling is very much on his terms (as most things are) but what gets me is his lack of care. Some days, when he wants, he takes me back by how beautifully he can work and others he's already had a tantrum before we have even entered the areana. We took him XC today and he was a nightmare for a horse who is usually over exited about life he didn't want to jump anything. We Took him to a different course only a few weeks ago and I had the problem of him wanting to jump everything as fast as possible. I don't understand how he manages to do a full 180° character change pretty much every time I ride him. I'm trying hard and I'm only young, has anyone got any advice on simply how to keep going because I'm loosing hope! I've given up so much for him, I can't ride out with friends, I can't really even think about competing and I can't enjoy a nice hack. I NEED HELP!!!! (it's a really good job he's gorgeous and a kind soul)


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## gracie.flannagan (29 June 2020)

I recommend lowering your expectations by a tonne! Go back to basics and make sure your results are consistent. Instead of having the expectation of jumping a full course, have a goal of maybe keeping a consistent rhythm over two jumps. It's hard to hear and very frustrating because we don't ride to deal with a difficult horse every day, we do it to enjoy the highs, so make your highs achievable. There's also no harm in taking a break or maybe riding a friend's horse for a little while. Often that makes us appreciative of what we have and inspired to get back to work. I know it's hard not having an immediate solution, like a magic pill that will solve all his problems, but the long road is rewarding in the end. Also, do you have a trainer? Sometimes a new pair of professional eyes can help us get on the right track!


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## Pippity (29 June 2020)

Bolting or tanking? What vet checks have you had? Saddle, dentist?


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## Ambers Echo (29 June 2020)

The vast majority of horses who jump fast are actually scared not excited. It's the flight part of the fight/flight/freeze response. And refusing to jump is the freeze part. Same problem just a different way of expressing it. I think you need to.slow right down and go right back to basics focusing on building his confidence.


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## Midlifecrisis (29 June 2020)

You need eyes on the ground and a good trainer to help you understand what is really triggering his behaviour and work slowly to resolve it.


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## shortstuff99 (29 June 2020)

To me he sounds as if he is very confused by what it is you (and other riders he has had) want. When PRE's don't understand what it is you are after they can react very strongly like this. I would suggest going back to basics with an instructor who is experienced in training Iberian horses, and make sure you are giving him clear instructions that he is understanding.


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## paddy555 (29 June 2020)

I'm afraid that what screams out from your post is pain.. A horse doesn't go from working perfectly one day to being a nightmare the next with no reason.. I would suggest the pain is possibly gut pain as a point to start at.

ETA this could be made worse by being a sensitive breed of horse. What some more stoic breeds will put up with some of the more sensitive ones won't.


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## Shay (29 June 2020)

You say you are young.  From my somewhat advanced age this could be anything from school age to under 40!  If you are school / Uni type age can I suggest you speak to a parent or trusted adult?  Your time as that sort of young rider is very short and to loose it with a horse who is going to need a lot of re-education is hard.  

If you are not quite that young - you are going to have to scale your expectations back a long long way.  You don't mention what vet checks you have had done so far but others are right this sounds like pain somewhere so you are going to have to go the whole hog and pretty much check everything until you find it.  Not finding a reason for pain is not the same as it not being there.  This has the potential to get very expensive. Then get a professional with experience of backing and  / or working with very sensitive horses to work alongside you. Take him right back to basics and work slowly forward.

If you have the space and funds you might want to loan or buy another that you can just ride if you want to fullfil that other element of horsey life.  I suspect it isn't going to be happeneing for this lad for a long while.


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

gracie.flannagan said:



			I recommend lowering your expectations by a tonne! Go back to basics and make sure your results are consistent. Instead of having the expectation of jumping a full course, have a goal of maybe keeping a consistent rhythm over two jumps. It's hard to hear and very frustrating because we don't ride to deal with a difficult horse every day, we do it to enjoy the highs, so make your highs achievable. There's also no harm in taking a break or maybe riding a friend's horse for a little while. Often that makes us appreciative of what we have and inspired to get back to work. I know it's hard not having an immediate solution, like a magic pill that will solve all his problems, but the long road is rewarding in the end. Also, do you have a trainer? Sometimes a new pair of professional eyes can help us get on the right track!
		
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Thank you so much and yeh we have regular lessons Xx


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

Pippity said:



			Bolting or tanking? What vet checks have you had? Saddle, dentist?
		
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He's had it all and it up to date on everything. We had the saddler out only a weeks ago. And has Chiropractor and Physio regularly.


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			The vast majority of horses who jump fast are actually scared not excited. It's the flight part of the fight/flight/freeze response. And refusing to jump is the freeze part. Same problem just a different way of expressing it. I think you need to.slow right down and go right back to basics focusing on building his confidence.
		
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So hard because he is such a bold horse. He is a do-er


paddy555 said:



			I'm afraid that what screams out from your post is pain.. A horse doesn't go from working perfectly one day to being a nightmare the next with no reason.. I would suggest the pain is possibly gut pain as a point to start at.

ETA this could be made worse by being a sensitive breed of horse. What some more stoic breeds will put up with some of the more sensitive ones won't.
		
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We are loosing into his Ulcers again. So definitely going to explore if it's pain.


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## be positive (29 June 2020)

What other checks were done when the ulcers were found? to me it sounds as if they were secondary and that he is in discomfort elsewhere, rushing and jumping fast is often a sign of pain, being keen one day then not another is also a sign that on the keen day he did too much, it hurt so he downs tools for a while until it fades away then he is back to going fast again, the sensitive ones can be very complex, has PSSM been ruled out or considered?

You have just said 'he has had it all' but not what the vet actually did check.


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

Shay said:



			You say you are young.  From my somewhat advanced age this could be anything from school age to under 40!  If you are school / Uni type age can I suggest you speak to a parent or trusted adult?  Your time as that sort of young rider is very short and to loose it with a horse who is going to need a lot of re-education is hard. 

If you are not quite that young - you are going to have to scale your expectations back a long long way.  You don't mention what vet checks you have had done so far but others are right this sounds like pain somewhere so you are going to have to go the whole hog and pretty much check everything until you find it.  Not finding a reason for pain is not the same as it not being there.  This has the potential to get very expensive. Then get a professional with experience of backing and  / or working with very sensitive horses to work alongside you. Take him right back to basics and work slowly forward.

If you have the space and funds you might want to loan or buy another that you can just ride if you want to fullfil that other element of horsey life.  I suspect it isn't going to be happeneing for this lad for a long while.
		
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I'm 14. So 13 when we bought him. Wish we had to money to get something different but it's not a possibility.


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

be positive said:



			What other checks were done when the ulcers were found? to me it sounds as if they were secondary and that he is in discomfort elsewhere, rushing and jumping fast is often a sign of pain, being keen one day then not another is also a sign that on the keen day he did too much, it hurt so he downs tools for a while until it fades away then he is back to going fast again, the sensitive ones can be very complex, has PSSM been ruled out or considered?

You have just said 'he has had it all' but not what the vet actually did check.
		
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Because we were looking for a problem she did an all round test. We are quite experienced and I can't think of anything else. We are going to give him some ulcer treatment and see how that works. Thank you sm


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## Cortez (29 June 2020)

Far from "having a tantrum", I think your horse is extremely anxious and worried by what you are throwing at him. Jumping is not  what PRE's were bred for, although they often do enjoy it, however you are dealing with a type of horse that is used to being ridden in high collection and designed for High School movements. Do you have a trainer that is experienced with Iberian horses? Often understanding the differences between regular English horses and the rather more complex Spanish breed is key to producing happy horses, and riders.


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## ycbm (29 June 2020)

paddy555 said:



			I'm afraid that what screams out from your post is pain.. A horse doesn't go from working perfectly one day to being a nightmare the next with no reason.. I would suggest the pain is possibly gut pain as a point to start at.

ETA this could be made worse by being a sensitive breed of horse. What some more stoic breeds will put up with some of the more sensitive ones won't.
		
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I would normally agree with this and normally be among the first to write it.  And I do agree,  the checks should be done to rule it out. 

But I've just bought a newly backed PRE and I can see how she could be turned into a horse like this with the wrong training.  Until I got one,  I used to think 'yeah, yeah' when people said how different they were.  But her level of emotional reaction,  her desperation to understand what it is you want her to do,  and her upset if she can't please you are beyond anything I've experienced before. 

So my suggestion, after full checks for pain,  is that you need a trainer who understands PREs and you need to go back to the basics and undo everything that has been done wrong before you got him.  But that would be a very tall ask for someone of your age and I really think he needs to be sold and replaced with something you can just have some fun on at 14. 

.


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## ycbm (29 June 2020)

Lana.H05 said:



			I'm 14. So 13 when we bought him. Wish we had to money to get something different but it's not a possibility.
		
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At the moment he is no fun,  so there is no point in having him.  If he is sold then you can save the money he costs to keep, possibly work a few hours and save that cash, and by the time this ridiculous buyer's market calms down,  you'll have enough to buy a straightforward, if more common looking,  horse you can enjoy.

.


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			Far from "having a tantrum", I think your horse is extremely anxious and worried by what you are throwing at him. Jumping is not  what PRE's were bred for, although they often do enjoy it, however you are dealing with a type of horse that is used to being ridden in high collection and designed for High School movements. Do you have a trainer that is experienced with Iberian horses? Often understanding the differences between regular English horses and the rather more complex Spanish breed is key to producing happy horses, and riders.
		
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Unfortunately where we live we don't have a specialised instructor. By 'tantrum' I mean he can get strong and start to jog or spook and varies silly things. It's more of an over reaction maybe. Thank you


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## Pinkvboots (29 June 2020)

It sounds like the jumping is frightening him some horses just don't get it or like it, as Cortez has said they are not bred for this and can be highly sensitive, I have Arabs which can also be sensitive and also not always suited to jumping, if I had persisted jumping one of mine he would be a wreck he just doesn't cope with it, so we don't do it apart from the odd tiny pole type log on a hack that's about his limit.


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			I would normally agree with this and normally be among the first to write it.  And I do agree,  the checks should be done to rule it out.

But I've just bought a newly backed PRE and I can see how she could be turned into a horse like this with the wrong training.  Until I got one,  I used to think 'yeah, yeah' when people said how different they were.  But her level of emotional reaction,  her desperation to understand what it is you want her to do,  and her upset if she can't please you are beyond anything I've experienced before.

So my suggestion, after full checks for pain,  is that you need a trainer who understands PREs and you need to go back to the basics and undo everything that has been done wrong before you got him.  But that would be a very tall ask for someone of your age and I really think he needs to be sold and replaced with something you can just have some fun on at 14.

.
		
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This makes so much sense but I can't trust him not to just to end up sold on again for the same reaosns. When I first bought him we were not obviously aware of the ulcers or anything but we could seen he was highly Strung and had no skill. We spent the first 2 months walking everyday and then slowly introduced trot over 4 months and finally canter. We then recognised he had ulcers and got those treated. It's hard to explain but he came to us completely messed up and it would be beyond hard to let him go after we have achieved so much even if it is so little. Thank you sm this really helped


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			At the moment he is no fun,  so there is no point in having him.  If he is sold then you can save the money he costs to keep, possibly work a few hours and save that cash, and by the time this ridiculous buyer's market calms down,  you'll have enough to buy a straightforward, if more common looking,  horse you can enjoy.

.
		
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Honestly selling him isn't an option. If it's not his Ulcers that are causing this then I guess I'll look into it but it will be heaetbreaking.


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## ycbm (29 June 2020)

I think you could possibly find a PRE lover who would take him on safely.   

I also think you should check out Paddy555 's suggestion that he may have PSSM. It's a hair test,  but to get the full story you need to send it to Germany and it costs over £200. Or you can try whacking him full of vitamin E (10000iu of natural stuff only) and see if that changes anything,  which it usually does with PSSM. 

.


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

Pinkvboots said:



			It sounds like the jumping is frightening him some horses just don't get it or like it, as Cortez has said they are not bred for this and can be highly sensitive, I have Arabs which can also be sensitive and also not always suited to jumping, if I had persisted jumping one of mine he would be a wreck he just doesn't cope with it, so we don't do it apart from the odd tiny pole type log on a hack that's about his limit.
		
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So frustrating because he seems to like it. He definitely has a height maximum but I think he enjoys it. Jumping is was I love doing and I try not to push him to anything difficult but he has talent and potential.


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			I think you could possibly find a PRE lover who would take him on safely.  

I also think you should check out Paddy555 's suggestion that he may have PSSM. It's a hair test,  but to get the full story you need to send it to Germany and it costs over £200. Or you can try whacking him full of vitamin E (10000iu of natural stuff only) and see if that changes anything,  which it usually does with PSSM.

.
		
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Done a little research doesn't quite match up. Horses with it seems to look poor with the muscles wastage. This is him :


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## Cortez (29 June 2020)

Unfortunately yours is a story that is repeated again and again with Spanish horses in the UK, they so often end up messed up, confused and frightened with riders who don't understand what they are doing wrong.If jumping is what you want to do then you really should look for a horse that is suited to do that. Selling on an unsuitable horse is not the worst thing that can happen to him if you strive to find the right home for him. Ulcers are caused by stress; stress is caused by physical and/or emotional pain.


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## ycbm (29 June 2020)

Lana.H05 said:



			Done a little research doesn't quite match up. Horses with it seems to look poor with the muscles wastage. This is him :
	View attachment 50801

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They often look absolutely normal.  In fact I would say it's more common that they do.  

.


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## ycbm (29 June 2020)

How old is he Lena?

.


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			How old is he Lena?

.
		
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He's twelve


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			Unfortunately yours is a story that is repeated again and again with Spanish horses in the UK, they so often end up messed up, confused and frightened with riders who don't understand what they are doing wrong.If jumping is what you want to do then you really should look for a horse that is suited to do that. Selling on an unsuitable horse is not the worst thing that can happen to him if you strive to find the right home for him. Ulcers are caused by stress; stress is caused by physical and/or emotional pain.
		
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Although Spanish horses is definitely not my expertise i just want to say how genuine and lovely Kraka is. He enjoys jumping and was going well for a while and it is only recently that he has brought up some issues. Im not going to sell him because I cant.


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## paddy555 (29 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			I think you could possibly find a PRE lover who would take him on safely.

I also think you should check out Paddy555 's suggestion that he may have PSSM. It's a hair test,  but to get the full story you need to send it to Germany and it costs over £200. Or you can try whacking him full of vitamin E (10000iu of natural stuff only) and see if that changes anything,  which it usually does with PSSM.

.
		
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I do appreciate the point being made about Spanish horses.  I have a part bred Spanish. He has just about the same symptoms as OP's. When he is right you only have to breathe and he understands the command. However when the problems kick in (which I think is muscle pain) it puts a totally different complexion on it. 

I suspect mine may have PSSM. He hasn't been tested but I know it occurs in Spanish horses and it  fits a lot. I don't think there is a simple or cheap answer to the original post.
Poor handling causes stress of course but so does pain and ulcers are simply the knock one effect. So are hind gut ulcers.

If you treat the ulcers you may see better results but the cause will still be there unless you can find it. Muscle pain (PSSM or any other) causes stress with the knock on effect.

I can see you are trying your best and that is a lovely pic of both you and your horse and the vegetation.

If you put your hands on his hind quarters (standing at the side of him) and wobble them. Does his backside wobble or does it feel more solid like a board? 

A physio,vet or chiro won't diagnose PSSM and most may not even know much about it. 

As a very cheap suggestion I would consider sodium bicarb. (link below) After feeding that twice daily for a few days you may see improvement. That would give an indication as to where your problems lie. 



If he was mine I would  give 10000iu natural vit E and equishure (equishure is sodium bicarbonate that has been treated to reach the hind gut)  and see if that could change him. Those supplements however are not cheap. I would also make sure he is kept warm at all times. In this current wet and windy weather (UK) I would make sure he is rugged, his back is kept dry and warm and also that he is kept moving ie not stabled but allowed to either wander around a yard or out 24/7 and given gentle exercise daily. That could be walking in hand, long reining or gentle ridden walking.  

The above is all part of PSSM management. 

From your last post you say he has been going well for a while and has only recently brought up some issues. Can you be a lot more precise? When he was going well did you have problems or was he OK for most of the time? When he started with issues what exactly happened? I am looking specifically at weather. Was he OK for example when it was warm and dry and when the wind and rain started problems started? Was he OK when the grass was dry but then problems happened when it grew and became richer. 
(it may help if you keep a diary of  exactly what his management is in detail each day, what the weather is like, how much grazing he had that day) 

I don't think he is necessarily the horse for what you want but I do congratulate you for not selling him. I have been in your position several times and I wouldn't have sold them. 





https://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/Sodium-Bicarbonate-BP-Powder-5kg/productinfo/SOD5/


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

paddy555 said:



			I do appreciate the point being made about Spanish horses.  I have a part bred Spanish. He has just about the same symptoms as OP's. When he is right you only have to breathe and he understands the command. However when the problems kick in (which I think is muscle pain) it puts a totally different complexion on it.

I suspect mine may have PSSM. He hasn't been tested but I know it occurs in Spanish horses and it  fits a lot. I don't think there is a simple or cheap answer to the original post.
Poor handling causes stress of course but so does pain and ulcers are simply the knock one effect. So are hind gut ulcers.

If you treat the ulcers you may see better results but the cause will still be there unless you can find it. Muscle pain (PSSM or any other) causes stress with the knock on effect.

I can see you are trying your best and that is a lovely pic of both you and your horse and the vegetation.

If you put your hands on his hind quarters (standing at the side of him) and wobble them. Does his backside wobble or does it feel more solid like a board?

A physio,vet or chiro won't diagnose PSSM and most may not even know much about it.

As a very cheap suggestion I would consider sodium bicarb. (link below) After feeding that twice daily for a few days you may see improvement. That would give an indication as to where your problems lie.



If he was mine I would  give 10000iu natural vit E and equishure (equishure is sodium bicarbonate that has been treated to reach the hind gut)  and see if that could change him. Those supplements however are not cheap. I would also make sure he is kept warm at all times. In this current wet and windy weather (UK) I would make sure he is rugged, his back is kept dry and warm and also that he is kept moving ie not stabled but allowed to either wander around a yard or out 24/7 and given gentle exercise daily. That could be walking in hand, long reining or gentle ridden walking. 

The above is all part of PSSM management.

From your last post you say he has been going well for a while and has only recently brought up some issues. Can you be a lot more precise? When he was going well did you have problems or was he OK for most of the time? When he started with issues what exactly happened? I am looking specifically at weather. Was he OK for example when it was warm and dry and when the wind and rain started problems started? Was he OK when the grass was dry but then problems happened when it grew and became richer.
(it may help if you keep a diary of  exactly what his management is in detail each day, what the weather is like, how much grazing he had that day)

I don't think he is necessarily the horse for what you want but I do congratulate you for not selling him. I have been in your position several times and I wouldn't have sold them. 





https://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/Sodium-Bicarbonate-BP-Powder-5kg/productinfo/SOD5/

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Thank you so much. I really appreciate the helpful advice. So Kraka was 10 when we bought him. It was very early March. We viewed him a week previous and to be honest it was awful. He couldn't walk properly or trot at all and he was quite clearly in need of some love. Something drew me to him and so I decided he was the one. He arrived stressed and anxious. He looked like 3 different horses all mixed matched into one because his muscles were all in weird places. I got on and walked for a few months and then began trotting and cantering after having more of a bond. As it got hotter and there was more grass he became happier and when it got colder he seemed uncomfortable.  Thats when we got him scoped and treated for ulcers. So after he was all clear he was still bolting and has put me in some very dangerous situations. But we was achieving some really good things he did a Hunter Trial and we went showjumping with friends and joined my schools equ team. Then coming into winter we were still keeping him at an extremely stressful yard with over 100 horses and stressy people. It was rubbing off on me and Kraka the amount of pressure we were feeling but progress was still happening. Fast forward to the beginning of lock down a stables on a home farm came up for livery only a 10 minute walk from my house. So moved. He is out 24/7 and is fed and hayed before riding to line his stomach. He eats Thunderbrooks chaff and soaked grass nuts. Supplements he has daily are Silent 4, Gut balancer, Corn Oil and a hormone calmer. So before all this heat wave he was doing well and during also. Ive been doing lots of group hacking that was a dream come. However there are moments like XC yesterday and also schooling him previously he just didnt want to work. A few of my friends had ridden him and he was fine but it is like something hurts again. If i try with the ulcers again because he probably had them for years before we treated him and they probably started his bolting from what a previous owner told me. And then if that doesnt change anything i will look into PSSM. But we don't have a lot of money to splash around and insurance was used up on the last lot of treatment.


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## Ambers Echo (29 June 2020)

I admire your wish to give him a forever home and to ask for help, have regular lessons, look at physical issues etc. So I do undertand your reluctance to sell on in case he gets passed around. But maybe another way of looking at it is to recognise that you are not an appropriate home for him either. And I mean that in the nicest possible way - you are doing everything you can for him but you just don't have the experience. You are probably too young to retrain a stressy, confused horse. Kids often ride brilliantly but very few are good trainers! You can only learn how to tain horses by training horses and the first few you train should be very very easy to get you going. Which this one isn't. You want to jump which probably does not suit him. You are not familiar with the breed and while horses are horses - this breed IS a bit different. 

The market is strong right now and a sensitive PRE will be EXACTY what someone wants and that person will have far more chance of helping the horse relax, learn, enjoy life. And you can buy a horse who wants to jump and is already pretty chilled.

If you really can't sell him then I would ditch all thoughts of jumping for now, have as many lessons as you can afford on the ground and on the flat and try and find trainers who understand that you need their help in re-training a horse not just giving you riding lessons. It is totally different.


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## Ambers Echo (29 June 2020)

Having read your most recent post - it sounds more positive than what you had written earlier if you had several settled months and managed to work him in a variety of settings and he was calm &  willing. So maybe it is an ulcer flare up and he will be ok with more treatment. I hope so. x


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Having read your most recent post - it sounds more positive than what you had written earlier if you had several settled months and managed to work him in a variety of settings and he was calm &  willing. So maybe it is an ulcer flare up and he will be ok with more treatment. I hope so. x
		
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Thank you. I won't probably ever sell him but if ulcers aren't the answer maybe loan him out. But he is my only horse and my entire world. I jump once a week and no bigger than 90cm. I have quite a lot of experience as my whole life I've had naughty ponies to bring on but the Spanish Breed is so different however I would rather learn and continue the incredible bond that I have with him than just send him off because I wasn't good enough. I know it sounds selfish but when you have come so far and he is so special to me.


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

Lana.H05 said:



			Thank you. I won't probably ever sell him but if ulcers aren't the answer maybe loan him out. But he is my only horse and my entire world. I jump once a week and no bigger than 90cm. I have quite a lot of experience as my whole life I've had naughty ponies to bring on but the Spanish Breed is so different however I would rather learn and continue the incredible bond that I have with him than just send him off because I wasn't good enough. I know it sounds selfish but when you have come so far and he is so special to me.
		
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I will take on board however that jumping maybe isn't for him. Would he shame but I don't care as long as he is happy.


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## paddy555 (29 June 2020)

Lana.H05 said:



			Thank you so much. I really appreciate the helpful advice. So Kraka was 10 when we bought him. It was very early March. We viewed him a week previous and to be honest it was awful. He couldn't walk properly or trot at all and he was quite clearly in need of some love. Something drew me to him and so I decided he was the one. He arrived stressed and anxious. He looked like 3 different horses all mixed matched into one because his muscles were all in weird places. I got on and walked for a few months and then began trotting and cantering after having more of a bond. As it got hotter and there was more grass he became happier and when it got colder he seemed uncomfortable.  Thats when we got him scoped and treated for ulcers. So after he was all clear he was still bolting and has put me in some very dangerous situations. But we was achieving some really good things he did a Hunter Trial and we went showjumping with friends and joined my schools equ team. Then coming into winter we were still keeping him at an extremely stressful yard with over 100 horses and stressy people. It was rubbing off on me and Kraka the amount of pressure we were feeling but progress was still happening. Fast forward to the beginning of lock down a stables on a home farm came up for livery only a 10 minute walk from my house. So moved. He is out 24/7 and is fed and hayed before riding to line his stomach. He eats Thunderbrooks chaff and soaked grass nuts. Supplements he has daily are Silent 4, Gut balancer, Corn Oil and a hormone calmer. So before all this heat wave he was doing well and during also. Ive been doing lots of group hacking that was a dream come. However there are moments like XC yesterday and also schooling him previously he just didnt want to work. A few of my friends had ridden him and he was fine but it is like something hurts again. If i try with the ulcers again because he probably had them for years before we treated him and they probably started his bolting from what a previous owner told me. And then if that doesnt change anything i will look into PSSM. But we don't have a lot of money to splash around and insurance was used up on the last lot of treatment.
		
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I think you are doing incredibly well  if you are only 14.  you seem to be on the right track with a lot of insight and patience.. Good luck with him.


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## Cortez (29 June 2020)

Lana.H05 said:



			Thank you. I won't probably ever sell him but if ulcers aren't the answer maybe loan him out. But he is my only horse and my entire world. I jump once a week and no bigger than 90cm. I have quite a lot of experience as my whole life I've had naughty ponies to bring on but the Spanish Breed is so different however I would rather learn and continue the incredible bond that I have with him than just send him off because I wasn't good enough. I know it sounds selfish but when you have come so far and he is so special to me.
		
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He may be "special" to you, but he deserves to have the best possible life, and being your entire world doesn't sound like it's much fun for him. I admire your commitment to learning, but if you don't have the experience or money to be able to help him, well, that *is* being selfish.


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## shortstuff99 (29 June 2020)

Is he a pure ANCCE registered PRE? I believe and @Cortez might remember more then me, that horses with PSSM are not allowed into the stud book and are genetically tested for it? If he is by registered parents then it might be a lower chance then if he is non-registered or a part-bred.


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			He may be "special" to you, but he deserves to have the best possible life, and being your entire world doesn't sound like it's much fun for him. I admire your commitment to learning, but if you don't have the experience or money to be able to help him, well, that *is* being selfish.
		
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Sorry and thank you for your advice


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

shortstuff99 said:



			Is he a pure ANCCE registered PRE? I believe and @Cortez might remember more then me, that horses with PSSM are not allowed into the stud book and are genetically tested for it? If he is by registered parents then it might be a lower chance then if he is non-registered or a part-bred.
		
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He is a registered PRE. His parents were also registered.


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

paddy555 said:



			I think you are doing incredibly well  if you are only 14.  you seem to be on the right track with a lot of insight and patience.. Good luck with him.
		
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Thank you hopefully this is something I can sort and I am so glad I now know about PSSM and will educate myself more.


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## Cortez (29 June 2020)

Lana.H05 said:



			Thank you hopefully this is something I can sort and I am so glad I now know about PSSM and will educate myself more.
		
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Horses with PSSM are not allowed to be registered in the ANCCE studbook, so it will be rare in the breed.


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## TPO (29 June 2020)

I think it's worth keeping in mind that this is a 14yr old child posting. They have come asking for advice and suggestions to help their horse. I dont think the repeated suggestion that they arent providing a good enough life for their horse and that they should sell is out of order. 

No one had seen the horse, owner or set up. It certainly sounds like the owner is doing her best and has involved the vet.

There are plenty of horses that I would keep/treat/manage differently from how their owners post that they do and I know I'm not alone in having differing opinions. That's just how things are, but cast your mind back to 14yr old you and imagine a hoard of strangers telling you that you are selfish and  not doing right by your horse.

He sounds like he was tricky and bought with issues. OP has taken their time, had vet/physio/chiro/saddle fitters involved. She has obviously considered various factors when choosing supplements and is looking into Vit E. 

Just because Spanish are the current "special of the day" doesnt make anyone the authority on all horses and give them the right to be cruel to a child.

OP, I might have missed a few posts but do you have someone in real life who can help? Do you have a regular instructor or an experienced person on your yard? Someone who can see the horse in the flesh and how you are together to help is more valuable than faceless entities on the internet. Dont apologise for asking for help and wanting the best for your horse. Everyone is always learning and no one knows it all.


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## shortstuff99 (29 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			Horses with PSSM are not allowed to be registered in the ANCCE studbook, so it will be rare in the breed.
		
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I thought that was the case!


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## Ambers Echo (29 June 2020)

TPO, I agree I think OP is doing amazingly well and is clearly a thoughtful and committed owner. Far more so than many adults! I sometimes think people would like to sell on a difficult horse but feel that persevering and sticking with the 'forever home' ideal is the right thing to do. Which is where my post was coming from in suggesting a different perspective on that. I think 'right' homes are more important than 'forever' homes.  But subsequent posts have made it clear that she has come on a long way and also just how much the horse means to her. So I wish you all the luck, OP. Hope it all works out well for you both.


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## paddy555 (29 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			Horses with PSSM are not allowed to be registered in the ANCCE studbook, so it will be rare in the breed.
		
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how have  they been  tested for PSSM2? ie which test


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## D66 (29 June 2020)

Just a thought but as your horse was going well before lockdown and has since had reduced work he may have changed shape enough to need the saddle refitting.


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## Fellewell (29 June 2020)

We stopped for lunch at a Spanish finca years ago. It was also a stud and beyond the terrace there was a mixed ability lesson taking place with about half a dozen PREs. It was clear that these beautiful horses were the most important beings in the arena, the instructor was taking no prisoners. He was definitely a 'pee or get off the pot' type of trainer and his pupils weren't allowed even the smallest mistakes.
We got talking to a man nearby who seemed to be part of the team. I noted that all the horses there were in sand paddocks with ad-lib hay/alfalfa and I commented that people seem to have problems with PREs in the uk and maybe it was the diet/rich grazing. He shook his head sadly and said 'creo que no'. I didn't pursue the subject because my Spanish is limited and I might have been nodding along enthusiastically while he was saying we were a bunch of electric-bummed losers!
H&H have put up their top 9 dressage vids. Fuego is there (naturalmente!) you only have to note his reaction at the end when he thinks Dad has stopped paying attention. They are such sensitive souls. Es una lastima.


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## paddy555 (29 June 2020)

TPO said:



			I think it's worth keeping in mind that this is a 14yr old child posting. They have come asking for advice and suggestions to help their horse. I dont think the repeated suggestion that they arent providing a good enough life for their horse and that they should sell is out of order.

No one had seen the horse, owner or set up. It certainly sounds like the owner is doing her best and has involved the vet.

There are plenty of horses that I would keep/treat/manage differently from how their owners post that they do and I know I'm not alone in having differing opinions. That's just how things are, but cast your mind back to 14yr old you and imagine a hoard of strangers telling you that you are selfish and  not doing right by your horse.

He sounds like he was tricky and bought with issues. OP has taken their time, had vet/physio/chiro/saddle fitters involved. She has obviously considered various factors when choosing supplements and is looking into Vit E.

Just because Spanish are the current "special of the day" doesnt make anyone the authority on all horses and give them the right to be cruel to a child.

OP, I might have missed a few posts but do you have someone in real life who can help? Do you have a regular instructor or an experienced person on your yard? Someone who can see the horse in the flesh and how you are together to help is more valuable than faceless entities on the internet. Dont apologise for asking for help and wanting the best for your horse. Everyone is always learning and no one knows it all.
		
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I totally agree. I thought Cortez post 37 was incredibly mean. Everyone has to start somewhere and this young lady seems to be ahead of her years. If people cannot come on here and ask for advice, whatever age they are, how are they ever going to learn and improve? 

Of course all horses deserve to have the best possible lives. If we start on that basis, from some of the posts on here in the past, we would be removing half of the horses from their owners.


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## Cortez (29 June 2020)

TPO said:



			I think it's worth keeping in mind that this is a 14yr old child posting. They have come asking for advice and suggestions to help their horse. I dont think the repeated suggestion that they arent providing a good enough life for their horse and that they should sell is out of order.

No one had seen the horse, owner or set up. It certainly sounds like the owner is doing her best and has involved the vet.

There are plenty of horses that I would keep/treat/manage differently from how their owners post that they do and I know I'm not alone in having differing opinions. That's just how things are, but cast your mind back to 14yr old you and imagine a hoard of strangers telling you that you are selfish and  not doing right by your horse.

He sounds like he was tricky and bought with issues. OP has taken their time, had vet/physio/chiro/saddle fitters involved. She has obviously considered various factors when choosing supplements and is looking into Vit E.

Just because Spanish are the current "special of the day" doesnt make anyone the authority on all horses and give them the right to be cruel to a child.

OP, I might have missed a few posts but do you have someone in real life who can help? Do you have a regular instructor or an experienced person on your yard? Someone who can see the horse in the flesh and how you are together to help is more valuable than faceless entities on the internet. Dont apologise for asking for help and wanting the best for your horse. Everyone is always learning and no one knows it all.
		
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TPO, as I suspect this post is aimed at me may I answer some of your points? Spanish horses are not the "special of the day", they are horses which are routinely coming up as "problem horses" with depressing regularity; I nearly always have one or more in as "rescues" from kind hearted, bedazzled, over-horsed owners who cannot handle them - some don't make it because their behavioral problems are so severe and the kindest thing is to put them down. There are few people in the UK who really know how to train these horses: they *are* different, and require knowledge of the breed and a very different training approach to that endemic here. Some do OK, some fall apart and those are the ones that are in need of specialist help.

14 year old me would have got a clip around the ear if I didn't keep the welfare of my horse at the forefront of my mind at all times (I think the OP is trying to do her best, BTW), if I couldn't ride or take care of the horse properly it would be removed forthwith.

OP, you sound like a nice, concerned person who wants to help your horse, but the reality is that having a "bond", or insisting that you'll never sell because you're not good enough to ride him isn't going to do the trick for the horse.



paddy555 said:



			how have  they been  tested for PSSM2? ie which test
		
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I have no idea, you'll have to ask the licensing authority.


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## shortstuff99 (29 June 2020)

paddy555 said:



			how have  they been  tested for PSSM2? ie which test
		
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The genetic test for PSSM2 from what I've researched is a little bit sketchy. A lot of the horses that were positive from muscle biopsies etc did not have the PSSM2 genes that had been identified, unlike PSSM1. Rather then a test any horse that was to show symptoms would be removed from the studbook. When foals are registered they have to have bloods taken for their DNA profile.


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## paddy555 (29 June 2020)

shortstuff99 said:



			When foals are registered they have to have bloods taken for their DNA profile.
		
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but that doesn't test for PSSM2 does it?


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## shortstuff99 (29 June 2020)

paddy555 said:



			but that doesn't test for PSSM2 does it?
		
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Testing for PSSM2 (genetically) is not a definitive test at all for PSSM2 so I wouldn't massively rely on it full stop.


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## Cortez (29 June 2020)

paddy555 said:



			I totally agree. I thought Cortez post 37 was incredibly mean. Everyone has to start somewhere and this young lady seems to be ahead of her years. If people cannot come on here and ask for advice, whatever age they are, how are they ever going to learn and improve?

Of course all horses deserve to have the best possible lives. If we start on that basis, from some of the posts on here in the past, we would be removing half of the horses from their owners. 

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Ah you see, I don't subscribe to the theory that one has to be nice to children just because they are young, especially not when they are likely to get (or cause) hurt. I wasn't being mean, just speaking from long years of experience in dealing with precisely this situation. Telling someone they are doing a great job when plainly it isn't working is not helpful at best and dishonest at worst.


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## paddy555 (29 June 2020)

shortstuff99 said:



			Testing for PSSM2 (genetically) is not a definitive test at all for PSSM2 so I wouldn't massively rely on it full stop.
		
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 so the original comment in post 42 ie horses with PSSM are not allowed to be registered cannot be correct if you believe there is no way of PSSM2 testing. 

From the various PSSM groups they certainly appear to be affected in the same way as other breeds.


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## shortstuff99 (29 June 2020)

paddy555 said:



			so the original comment in post 42 ie horses with PSSM are not allowed to be registered cannot be correct if you believe there is no way of PSSM2 testing.

From the various PSSM groups they certainly appear to be affected in the same way as other breeds.
		
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If they end up diagnosed, then they wouldn't be allowed to be bred anymore (and any youngstock wouldn't be allowed to be registered).


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## Cortez (29 June 2020)

paddy555 said:



			so the original comment in post 42 ie horses with PSSM are not allowed to be registered cannot be correct if you believe there is no way of PSSM2 testing.

From the various PSSM groups they certainly appear to be affected in the same way as other breeds.
		
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Goodness, you do seem to be concerned about this: why don't you contact the ANCCE and ask them?


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## paddy555 (29 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			Ah you see, I don't subscribe to the theory that one has to be nice to children just because they are young, especially not when they are likely to get (or cause) hurt. I wasn't being mean, just speaking from long years of experience in dealing with precisely this situation. Telling someone they are doing a great job when plainly it isn't working is not helpful at best and dishonest at worst.
		
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ah, I believe in encouraging children especially if they are trying to work out how to solve a problem. I see so many thrashing around with their equines, hard hands, whips at the ready  who are not willing to look any further. So when one comes along, who is trying to solve their horse's  problem,  I feel helping them (as I would do with an adult) is the most beneficial for the horse. 

In this case of course we have a horse that seems to have come from his previous home with problems. Now we have someone who is trying to find out how to help him. Alternatively she could just sell the horse on and get a better jumping machine. The horse could then go onto his next home, take his problems with it  and  would be no better for it. Perhaps another home after that as he gets passed along as a problem horse.


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## paddy555 (29 June 2020)

shortstuff99 said:



			If they end up diagnosed, then they wouldn't be allowed to be bred anymore (and any youngstock wouldn't be allowed to be registered).
		
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true but by that stage the parents could already have produced many youngsters.


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## paddy555 (29 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			Goodness, you do seem to be concerned about this: why don't you contact the ANCCE and ask them?
		
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 I was merely commenting on your original remark which appears to have no accuracy.


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

TPO said:



			I think it's worth keeping in mind that this is a 14yr old child posting. They have come asking for advice and suggestions to help their horse. I dont think the repeated suggestion that they arent providing a good enough life for their horse and that they should sell is out of order.

No one had seen the horse, owner or set up. It certainly sounds like the owner is doing her best and has involved the vet.

There are plenty of horses that I would keep/treat/manage differently from how their owners post that they do and I know I'm not alone in having differing opinions. That's just how things are, but cast your mind back to 14yr old you and imagine a hoard of strangers telling you that you are selfish and  not doing right by your horse.

He sounds like he was tricky and bought with issues. OP has taken their time, had vet/physio/chiro/saddle fitters involved. She has obviously considered various factors when choosing supplements and is looking into Vit E.

Just because Spanish are the current "special of the day" doesnt make anyone the authority on all horses and give them the right to be cruel to a child.

OP, I might have missed a few posts but do you have someone in real life who can help? Do you have a regular instructor or an experienced person on your yard? Someone who can see the horse in the flesh and how you are together to help is more valuable than faceless entities on the internet. Dont apologise for asking for help and wanting the best for your horse. Everyone is always learning and no one knows it all.
		
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My mum Is very involved and has years of experience. We know lots of people through Pony Club but wondered if anyone had gone through the same thing. Thank you so much it difficult when no one has actually met him or knows me. XX really appreciate


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## Pinkvboots (29 June 2020)

I would check the ulcers have healed they can take months to clear up, maybe give the jumping a miss for now concentrate on getting him to trust you just with some basic schooling and see how he goes, if jumping is your passion and it's just not for him you might have to 're think your plans, you either sell him to a non jumping home or don't jump him yourself if you want to keep him.

You do sound very caring and responsible for 14 you very much remind me of my friends daughter I often ride with, she is very grown up for 14 I think having horses from a young age can do that.


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## TPO (29 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			Ah you see, I don't subscribe to the theory that one has to be nice to children just because they are young, especially not when they are likely to get (or cause) hurt. I wasn't being mean, just speaking from long years of experience in dealing with precisely this situation. Telling someone they are doing a great job when plainly it isn't working is not helpful at best and dishonest at worst.
		
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You were being cruel. You've never clapped eyes on this horse, havent seen the girl ride and have no information beyond what was posted on here. Yet that is somehow enough for you to ascertain that the owner is not good enough to have a "special" Pre? As suggested she could get a "more common looking horse" like the other peasants who aren't special enough for the special breed 🙄

No one is saying to mollicoddle anyone but OP asked for advice and had stated numerous times that the horse isnt being sold. She has been given helpful advice and pointed in the direction of things to look into further. To keep kicking someone and telling a (child) stranger that they arent good enough to rider their horse is being nasty for the sake of it.


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			TPO, I agree I think OP is doing amazingly well and is clearly a thoughtful and committed owner. Far more so than many adults! I sometimes think people would like to sell on a difficult horse but feel that persevering and sticking with the 'forever home' ideal is the right thing to do. Which is where my post was coming from in suggesting a different perspective on that. I think 'right' homes are more important than 'forever' homes.  But subsequent posts have made it clear that she has come on a long way and also just how much the horse means to her. So I wish you all the luck, OP. Hope it all works out well for you both.
		
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Thank you hopefully this is only temporary.


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

D66 said:



			Just a thought but as your horse was going well before lockdown and has since had reduced work he may have changed shape enough to need the saddle refitting.
		
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He had saddle fitter last week and his work didn't need to change as we have areana and hacking ect... But yes we did check that Xx


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

paddy555 said:



			so the original comment in post 42 ie horses with PSSM are not allowed to be registered cannot be correct if you believe there is no way of PSSM2 testing.

From the various PSSM groups they certainly appear to be affected in the same way as other breeds.
		
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I really don't know anything about it. He is registered with the British Association for the Purebred Spanish Horse.


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## Cortez (29 June 2020)

TPO said:



			You were being cruel. You've never clapped eyes on this horse, havent seen the girl ride and have no information beyond what was posted on here. Yet that is somehow enough for you to ascertain that the owner is not good enough to have a "special" Pre? As suggested she could get a "more common looking horse" like the other peasants who aren't special enough for the special breed 🙄

No one is saying to mollicoddle anyone but OP asked for advice and had stated numerous times that the horse isnt being sold. She has been given helpful advice and pointed in the direction of things to look into further. To keep kicking someone and telling a (child) stranger that they arent good enough to rider their horse is being nasty for the sake of it.
		
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I *didn't* say the OP should get a more common looking horse that was another poster. I *didn't* say the OP was not good enough, that was the OP herself. I *didn't* say the PRE is special, I did say they are different to the sort of horses most people in the UK are used to, which they are. You appear to have a problem with me, which is of course your prerogative; why don't you give yourself a treat and use the UI function.


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## Cortez (29 June 2020)

paddy555 said:



			I was merely commenting on your original remark which appears to have no accuracy.
		
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I didn't make the original remark, that was another poster.


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## shortstuff99 (29 June 2020)

paddy555 said:



			I was merely commenting on your original remark which appears to have no accuracy.
		
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I'm not sure how it's not accurate I've had a look through the documents and to register they do have to have a genetic test for PSSM (whether they also include type 2 in that I'm not 100% sure but they might).


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

shortstuff99 said:



			I'm not sure how it's not accurate I've had a look through the documents and to register they do have to have a genetic test for PSSM (whether they also include type 2 in that I'm not 100% sure but they might).
		
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There is nothing to say he has it. My mum told me she already looked into it a while back and she came to the conclusion that he didn't have it.


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## Cortez (29 June 2020)

paddy555 said:



			The horse could then go onto his next home, take his problems with it  and  would be no better for it. Perhaps another home after that as he gets passed along as a problem horse.
		
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Or perhaps in his next home he will get the training that he needs. Not every new home is for the worse, there are plenty of people who specialise in precisely this sort of problem.


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## milliepops (29 June 2020)

but all kinds of horses are different, I think that's the point, and they all need treating as individuals. My welsh is different to the other welsh on the yard, my ex racer is different to my friend's dobbin one, I don't think there is a "normal kind of UK horse" any more than all PREs are the same.  I think by focussing on this too much the discussion can end up going off down a tangent that isn't helpful to the OP, who has had some useful suggestions of things to try which apply to all breeds.  Checking the ulcers, checking the management, getting some help in person is relevant regardless of the breed of the horse and would apply if she had a QH, a TB, an arab or any other kind of horse that aficionados of the breed consider to be special or different to others.


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## shortstuff99 (29 June 2020)

Lana.H05 said:



			There is nothing to say he has it. My mum told me she already looked into it a while back and she came to the conclusion that he didn't have it.
		
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Okay, my next steps would be to have a vet work up/ulcer check and if all clear to find a good instructor with experience of PREs to help you. If you need advice of an instructor for your area you can always ask on the GB PRE facebook page, or put your general area (don't be too specific for privacy!) And someone here might be able to recommend you one.


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## DabDab (29 June 2020)

Another thing to look at if you haven't already OP, is the possibility of SI pain. When I was younger I used to do some riding for a lady who mainly retrained ex racers, but also had a bit of a soft spot for acquiring PREs that had got into a bit of a pickle. From memory pretty much all of them had moderate to severe SI pain when they arrived with her and needed varying amounts of treatment and/or rehab for it. It seems to be an area that due to their conformation they tend to hold tension if they are stressed or not moving correctly, and they can develop deep muscle spasms if that's happening to them regularly over a sustained period of time. 

Like pssm it is a condition that can fluctuate and present as worse in cold weather. And as a human who suffers occasionally from SI pain it can put you in sudden agony that makes any kind of athletic endeavour incredibly painful.


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			Or perhaps in his next home he will get the training that he needs. Not every new home is for the worse, there are plenty of people who specialise in precisely this sort of problem.
		
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I live in the New Forest. There isn't many people with Spanish Horses. But if things don't improve I will look into it more.


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## Lillian_paddington (29 June 2020)

Well done asking for advice, OP, and well done for taking it so well, even from the rather blunt posters on here. You’re open to helping your horse so you’re already on the right track. 
I’ve not had a horse with ulcers luckily, so all this advice is general, they may well have come back which would explain some of his behaviour. How do you manage him? Does he have access to forage 24/7, does he get a bit of chaff 20 minutes or so before you ride? How much turnout does he get, if it’s not 24/7 can you increase it? Provided there is enough grass of course. Is there anything you can do to reduce his stress? Bearing in mind these things won’t cure ulcers but they will help prevent them from returning. 
With the jumping, it does sound like he’s just not confident. Rushing and refusing is very common in forward, nervous horses. My one started off like that, I bought him to jump and event, but had no idea what he was like out competing. The only showjumping he’d ever done was in the couple months before when I loaned him. Silly idea on paper, we took it very slow, had about a year of hiring arenas before we could compete and now you’d never know. At some point a switch went in his head, and as soon as he found himself in a jump arena he knew exactly what his job was. What I’m saying really is that the nervous types need to know their job inside out before you try anything more difficult, so in your case it may well be a year of jumping very small show jumps once a week until he can do it in his sleep. And gradually move on, and every time you step up a level you make sure he is 200% confident with it before you move on. 
Of course a really good instructor would be great, try shopping around and getting a few different ones in before you stick with one. Good luck, it’s not impossible by any means. I know a PRE gelding ridden by a fairly novice teenager, he actually seems to goes nicer for her than her own (English) horse.


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## Cortez (29 June 2020)

milliepops said:



			but all kinds of horses are different, I think that's the point, and they all need treating as individuals. My welsh is different to the other welsh on the yard, my ex racer is different to my friend's dobbin one, I don't think there is a "normal kind of UK horse" any more than all PREs are the same.  I think by focussing on this too much the discussion can end up going off down a tangent that isn't helpful to the OP, who has had some useful suggestions of things to try which apply to all breeds.  Checking the ulcers, checking the management, getting some help in person is relevant regardless of the breed of the horse and would apply if she had a QH, a TB, an arab or any other kind of horse that aficionados of the breed consider to be special or different to others.
		
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Of course horses are different and uniquely themselves, but there is a disproportionately large number of Spanish horses that end up with severe problems here that just don't occur in Spain (yes, of course there are problem horses in Spain too). Milliepops, I believe you have had experience of riding a rather messed up PRE, is that right?


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

shortstuff99 said:



			Okay, my next steps would be to have a vet work up/ulcer check and if all clear to find a good instructor with experience of PREs to help you. If you need advice of an instructor for your area you can always ask on the GB PRE facebook page, or put your general area (don't be too specific for privacy!) And someone here might be able to recommend you one.
		
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Pefect thank you. Hes back on treatment from this morning and i should notice a difference with a couple of weeks.


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## Cortez (29 June 2020)

Lana.H05 said:



			I live in the New Forest. There isn't many people with Spanish Horses. But if things don't improve I will look into it more.
		
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You sound like a good kid, well done for trying to help. If you like I can recommend some people.


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## paddy555 (29 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			I didn't make the original remark, that was another poster.
		
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post 42 appears to have been written by you. That is the one I have been commenting on.


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

Lillian_paddington said:



			Well done asking for advice, OP, and well done for taking it so well, even from the rather blunt posters on here. You’re open to helping your horse so you’re already on the right track.
I’ve not had a horse with ulcers luckily, so all this advice is general, they may well have come back which would explain some of his behaviour. How do you manage him? Does he have access to forage 24/7, does he get a bit of chaff 20 minutes or so before you ride? How much turnout does he get, if it’s not 24/7 can you increase it? Provided there is enough grass of course. Is there anything you can do to reduce his stress? Bearing in mind these things won’t cure ulcers but they will help prevent them from returning.
With the jumping, it does sound like he’s just not confident. Rushing and refusing is very common in forward, nervous horses. My one started off like that, I bought him to jump and event, but had no idea what he was like out competing. The only showjumping he’d ever done was in the couple months before when I loaned him. Silly idea on paper, we took it very slow, had about a year of hiring arenas before we could compete and now you’d never know. At some point a switch went in his head, and as soon as he found himself in a jump arena he knew exactly what his job was. What I’m saying really is that the nervous types need to know their job inside out before you try anything more difficult, so in your case it may well be a year of jumping very small show jumps once a week until he can do it in his sleep. And gradually move on, and every time you step up a level you make sure he is 200% confident with it before you move on.
Of course a really good instructor would be great, try shopping around and getting a few different ones in before you stick with one. Good luck, it’s not impossible by any means. I know a PRE gelding ridden by a fairly novice teenager, he actually seems to goes nicer for her than her own (English) horse.
		
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I've never competed him. Just didn't see the point in pushing it. He jumps for pleasure at the moment any way as we do more excerisies than courses. He out 25/7 and ect. He is fed before riding and given Hay to line his stomach. He lives a very chilled life style which Is why I was surprised they were back.


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## Cortez (29 June 2020)

paddy555 said:



			post 42 appears to have been written by you. That is the one I have been commenting on.
		
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Oh for goodness sake; I was responding to another poster* (who actually knows more about it than I do, I had to look it up) who raised the rule.

*Shortstuff


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			You sound like a good kid, well done for trying to help. If you like I can recommend some people.
		
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Thank you but I have a really good instructor who knows me well and adors Kraka. Although he is Spanish and has the typical movement he doesn't seem to need specifically training. He's quite adaptable and I can work him really well I just wanted advice on possibley things to help my current situation that is that I feel a bit stuck. At the end of the day if he has the muscles wear they need to be he will work how it's Comfortable. We have had a Pre Instructor and she didn't listen to me so after a couple of months I was no Longer benefitting from having her.


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## milliepops (29 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			Of course horses are different and uniquely themselves, but there is a disproportionately large number of Spanish horses that end up with severe problems here that just don't occur in Spain (yes, of course there are problem horses in Spain too). Milliepops, I believe you have had experience of riding a rather messed up PRE, is that right?
		
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Yeah but I don't think he was messed up because he was a PRE, any more than my welsh is messed up because she's a sec D, they were just messed up by incorrect training/handling/management in general IMO.

There are messed up horses of all breeds, I would say there are probably more TBs and welshes that are not in the right homes simply because of the sheer numbers of them around, and both then also acquire reputations for being speshul breeds (though in general people don't get told to look for someone experienced with the breed, any old good trainer will do).  I just don't think it is particularly helpful to focus on the breed as a kind of "it'll never work" backstop because with the right approach and good help there is every chance that the OP can resolve this horse's issues just the same as any other horse.


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## DabDab (29 June 2020)

Cortez said:



			Of course horses are different and uniquely themselves, but there is a disproportionately large number of Spanish horses that end up with severe problems here that just don't occur in Spain (yes, of course there are problem horses in Spain too). Milliepops, I believe you have had experience of riding a rather messed up PRE, is that right?
		
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I think MP has had previously messed up mounts in a variety of breeds now 

ETA: sorry, x posted with you MP


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## Midlifecrisis (29 June 2020)

Why couldn’t the horse walk or trot when first viewed? Have I missed what the vet said about this prepurchase ? 

OP when my daughter was 12 I bought her a gelding whom she adored but was totally wrong for her...and despite my sensible head I kept him for 18 months during which he destroyed her confidence and emptied my bank balance. Whenever I mentioned selling him she would have a monumental tantrum....BUT when I did sell him on to a small adult and bought a more suitable and older horse for her she never looked back and was sad for as long as it took me to drive home from dropping him off.  
It is a difficult and very mature thing to stand back and unemotionally examine the reality of a situation. What would you advise a friend in this situation do you think?


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## milliepops (29 June 2020)

DabDab said:



			I think MP has had previously messed up mounts in a variety of breeds now 

ETA: sorry, x posted with you MP
		
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I like the variety!


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

milliepops said:



			Yeah but I don't think he was messed up because he was a PRE, any more than my welsh is messed up because she's a sec D, they were just messed up by incorrect training/handling/management in general IMO.

There are messed up horses of all breeds, I would say there are probably more TBs and welshes that are not in the right homes simply because of the sheer numbers of them around, and both then also acquire reputations for being speshul breeds (though in general people don't get told to look for someone experienced with the breed, any old good trainer will do).  I just don't think it is particularly helpful to focus on the breed as a kind of "it'll never work" backstop because with the right approach and good help there is every chance that the OP can resolve this horse's issues just the same as any other horse.
		
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Totally agree. He was originally bred for Polo then sold to a guy who had him 5 years. He then started Bolting and was then exchanged to a dealer who sold to a dealer who had him for 6 weeks and then was sold to me. He's not first I've had come to me messed up and I've had a crazy little Welsh that just needed love and some boundaries Xx thank you


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## Lana.H05 (29 June 2020)

Midlifecrisis said:



			Why couldn’t the horse walk or trot when first viewed? Have I missed what the vet said about this prepurchase ?

OP when my daughter was 12 I bought her a gelding whom she adored but was totally wrong for her...and despite my sensible head I kept him for 18 months during which he destroyed her confidence and emptied my bank balance. Whenever I mentioned selling him she would have a monumental tantrum....BUT when I did sell him on to a small adult and bought a more suitable and older horse for her she never looked back and was sad for as long as it took me to drive home from dropping him off. 
It is a difficult and very mature thing to stand back and unemotionally examine the reality of a situation. What would you advise a friend in this situation do you think?
		
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Hello because he was only sold 6 weeks previous to us buying him we were given the vet report. It was risky but also saved money and expenses. Selling him still really isnt an option. Ide recommend a friend to maybe get a professional to get on board and see what they think are the problem areas. We had this done but I will think about having them back out again.


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## Cortez (29 June 2020)

Lana.H05 said:



			Totally agree. He was originally bred for Polo then sold to a guy who had him 5 years. He then started Bolting and was then exchanged to a dealer who sold to a dealer who had him for 6 weeks and then was sold to me. He's not first I've had come to me messed up and I've had a crazy little Welsh that just needed love and some boundaries Xx thank you
		
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Bred for *polo*? I've never heard of a PRE being used for polo - where was he bred?


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## ycbm (29 June 2020)

shortstuff99 said:



			I'm not sure how it's not accurate I've had a look through the documents and to register they do have to have a genetic test for PSSM (whether they also include type 2 in that I'm not 100% sure but they might).
		
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Type ii test has only recently been available anyway so it won't have been done when this horse was registered. 

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## ycbm (29 June 2020)

I'm only young {14}, has anyone got any advice on simply how to keep going because I'm loosing hope! I've given up so much for him, I can't ride out with friends, I can't really even think about competing and I can't enjoy a nice hack.
		
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I am really struggling to understand why anyone thinks it's bad advice to give a child who writes this that they would be better off selling and getting a horse they can enjoy riding.  

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## Keep Trying (30 June 2020)

Hi OP,

Well done for all that you have achieved so far and apologies if this has been considered already.

I knew someone who had similar issues with their horse - not a PRE though - and transpired that horse had Kissing Spines which had previously been missed. Has your boy been x-rayed for spines??

Just a thought...


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## Mrs. Jingle (30 June 2020)

I think the kindest posts on here are the most honest ones.

And IMO they are the ones that encourage the OP to  recognise that they might not be the best owner for this particular horse, and to consider putting considerable effort into finding a more suitable and experienced home for him.  Then concentrate on finding a new horse that better suits their aspirations and experience level and start to enjoy your involvement with horses, at 14 you should be having a blast on your horse, not stressing about all these behaviour and health issues.

I think it is pretty pointless suggesting further tests and work ups etc. as OP has clearly stated that the insurance is now used up and there aren't any funds left - another point in favour of looking for another more suited home. You have done all you appear to be able to on the vet front OP and well done for that. 

Also the suggestion of an experienced instructor who DOES have experience of the breed is another pointless suggestion, OP has said she had one and they didnt get on as the instructor 'wouldn't listen to her'. Not sure exactly what that meant. 

OP you sound very mature, very caring and have done the best you can within your means.  Another step up the ladder of maturity and responsibility when owning our own horses is recognising and accepting that we might not be the best for that particular horse.  That is swallowing what WE want, and what WE would prefer and sometimes letting much loved horses go on for their own good and benefit to another owner that could well help you horse to achieve and settle to a lifestyle more suited to him. Good luck whatever you decide long term.


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## milliepops (30 June 2020)

While I would agree that it's not a lot of fun for a teenager to be sorting out a tricky horse, tbf I don't think it's really kind on anyone to sell on a horse with potentially unknown medical issues just because the insurance has run out. It's not really fair on the horse, the buyer or the OP who may well find it's something as simple as the return of ulcers which seems to be not an uncommon problem and would be reasonably easy to either rule out or treat.  
if the OP's parents are horsey, as I think she has indicated,  they will know that horses run up vets bills now and then, so presumably if they aren't prepared to pay for them at any point, that would be the driver for selling the horse.  I think the OP has said the horse is being treated again so sounds like they are happy to continue funding it out of their own pockets.


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## Lana.H05 (30 June 2020)

milliepops said:



			While I would agree that it's not a lot of fun for a teenager to be sorting out a tricky horse, tbf I don't think it's really kind on anyone to sell on a horse with potentially unknown medical issues just because the insurance has run out. It's not really fair on the horse, the buyer or the OP who may well find it's something as simple as the return of ulcers which seems to be not an uncommon problem and would be reasonably easy to either rule out or treat. 
if the OP's parents are horsey, as I think she has indicated,  they will know that horses run up vets bills now and then, so presumably if they aren't prepared to pay for them at any point, that would be the driver for selling the horse.  I think the OP has said the horse is being treated again so sounds like they are happy to continue funding it out of their own pockets.
		
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Yes so we spoke to a friend who has suggested a good treatment and it arrives tomorrow however we had some stuff left over so we have re introduced that. It's probably the ulcers back as it's very common for them to return. Vet bills happen and just have to be dealt with. I don't see the point in selling him because there are no positives. I won't get over the fact I would have failed and probably won't ride again and he would just end up still in pain and anxious all over again. Thank you for understanding Xx


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## Lana.H05 (30 June 2020)

Mrs Jingle said:



			I think the kindest posts on here are the most honest ones.

And IMO they are the ones that encourage the OP to  recognise that they might not be the best owner for this particular horse, and to consider putting considerable effort into finding a more suitable and experienced home for him.  Then concentrate on finding a new horse that better suits their aspirations and experience level and start to enjoy your involvement with horses, at 14 you should be having a blast on your horse, not stressing about all these behaviour and health issues.

I think it is pretty pointless suggesting further tests and work ups etc. as OP has clearly stated that the insurance is now used up and there aren't any funds left - another point in favour of looking for another more suited home. You have done all you appear to be able to on the vet front OP and well done for that.

Also the suggestion of an experienced instructor who DOES have experience of the breed is another pointless suggestion, OP has said she had one and they didnt get on as the instructor 'wouldn't listen to her'. Not sure exactly what that meant.

OP you sound very mature, very caring and have done the best you can within your means.  Another step up the ladder of maturity and responsibility when owning our own horses is recognising and accepting that we might not be the best for that particular horse.  That is swallowing what WE want, and what WE would prefer and sometimes letting much loved horses go on for their own good and benefit to another owner that could well help you horse to achieve and settle to a lifestyle more suited to him. Good luck whatever you decide long term.
		
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## Lana.H05 (30 June 2020)

Keep Trying said:



			Hi OP,

Well done for all that you have achieved so far and apologies if this has been considered already.

I knew someone who had similar issues with their horse - not a PRE though - and transpired that horse had Kissing Spines which had previously been missed. Has your boy been x-rayed for spines??

Just a thought...
		
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No he's hasn't and the Chiropractor hasn't picked this up but I will definitely keep this in mind. Thank you


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## ycbm (30 June 2020)

Lana.H05 said:



			It's probably the ulcers back as it's very common for them to return.
		
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Lana when ulcers recur and the management of the horse (food, turnout etc)  is good  it is usually because the horse is in pain somewhere. 

If he is ulcer prone then after any treatment your vet recommends , I would suggest aloe vera juice.  It has been proven to work and at £8 a litre (40 days supply)  is cheap.  

.


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## Lana.H05 (30 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			Lana when ulcers recur and the management of the horse (food, turnout etc)  is good  it is usually because the horse is in pain somewhere.

If he is ulcer prone then after any treatment your vet recommends , I would suggest aloe vera juice.  It has been proven to work and at £8 a litre (40 days supply)  is cheap. 

.
		
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Okay that helpful ill definitely look into the aloe Vera. The reason we think they are back is because we couldn't give him the follow up treatment after the peptizole because it had Alfa in it and it send him a cukoo and they have probably just now gotten to a point where they hurt. But yes will look into aloe Vera


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## bubsqueaks (1 July 2020)

Lana your horse sounds very similar to ours.
Have you had him scoped - were they glandular or squamous ulcers?
After 4 scopes & a full years treatment dealing with glandular ulcers which are particularly tricky to treat & cure, we turned him away for 18 months to let nature heal & hes now scoped clear.
In hindsight he had similar reactions to yours - over-reactive, over-anxious, over-jumping - it was also quite evident from his facial expression he was in pain & the way he was holding himself - check out Sue Dyson's pain recognition facial signs.
I truly admire your determination to stand by him - most pain is caused by humans & a lot can be healed by nature & nurture.


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## Lana.H05 (1 July 2020)

bubsqueaks said:



			Lana your horse sounds very similar to ours.
Have you had him scoped - were they glandular or squamous ulcers?
After 4 scopes & a full years treatment dealing with glandular ulcers which are particularly tricky to treat & cure, we turned him away for 18 months to let nature heal & hes now scoped clear.
In hindsight he had similar reactions to yours - over-reactive, over-anxious, over-jumping - it was also quite evident from his facial expression he was in pain & the way he was holding himself - check out Sue Dyson's pain recognition facial signs.
I truly admire your determination to stand by him - most pain is caused by humans & a lot can be healed by nature & nurture.
		
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I don't know If they were glandular or not I just know they were sort of in the middle area of the gut. He seems happy his usual cheeky self. I am really looking out for him to have an uncomfortable face but on the ground he hasn't changed at all. I'll have a look at Sue Dyson as it's probably interesting.


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