# Ungraded stallions?



## CambridgeParamour (25 May 2011)

Is it really terrible using a stallion that hasn't been graded? 

This time, the stallion in question is mine (basically- 3 year old, failed the AES grading, has been asked back under saddle as a 4 or 5 year old- full thread here- http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=449723 )

I _may_ be interested on using him on my own mare this time next year. (wouldn't stand him at stud until he was graded.)

What are your opinions on this? 

Thanks guys.


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## Springs (25 May 2011)

You can use your boy as much as you want. 

I have a very low opion of the stallion grading system in this country, most are nothing more than a showing competition and it can be more about who presents the stallion and who you know than the actual stallion its self.

So you can do what you want. The stud books still have to accept any young stock and issue passports for them.


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## Simsar (25 May 2011)

CambridgeParamour said:



			Is it really terrible using a stallion that hasn't been graded?

Well it is a real can of worms on here as most think its wrong.

This time, the stallion in question is mine (basically- 3 year old, failed the AES grading, has been asked back under saddle as a 4 or 5 year old- full thread here- http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=449723 )  

Try Weatherby's NTR that's who our boy is with.  The recent gradings in this country have been dia and until they sort themselves out I will not be grading my boy with any society.I _may_ be interested on using him on my own mare this time next year. (wouldn't stand him at stud until he was graded.)  We have covered six mares last year and the proof is in the pudding.What are your opinions on this? 

Thanks guys.
		
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I think that people are a bit like sheep when it comes to using stallions now they tend to use horses that are trendy and over look the "use the horse because they like it" situation.  People should know what they like and what they are breeding towards without being dictated too.  Some people would not even look at my Stallion because he is not graded that doesn't bother me in the slightest.  But how funny that as soon as he got a grade from these so called knowledgeable breed society people he then is excepted, its a glorified showing class and its who likes your horse on the day, well sorry but I'm not prepared to spend a lot of money for someone to say sorry don't like him.


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## CambridgeParamour (25 May 2011)

Thanks both of you- so standing an ungraded stallion publicly isn't as bad as I thought- its just opinions of certain people that from upon it. 


Springs- definitely what I experienced. If the handler was 'famous' or knew a judge, the horse graded, if they didnt, the horse failed. 

Simsar- I thought as much (the can of worms thing  ) Thanks, will have look at Wetherbys now.


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## Simsar (25 May 2011)

I haven't worded it very well may edit things about a bit. LOL

Weatherby's NTR will cost you around £480 that includes a vetting from a BHA vet.  then if all goes well you will get Weatherby' covering certificates.


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## CambridgeParamour (25 May 2011)

Simsar said:



			I haven't worded it very well may edit things about a bit. LOL

Weatherby's NTR will cost you around £480 that includes a vetting from a BHA vet.  then if all goes well you will get Weatherby' covering certificates.
		
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How does weatherbys stand with AI? Do they allow it for WB stallions or not?


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## Simsar (25 May 2011)

Yes they have AI certs.  It means Non TB Register.

What if you were to use a racing TB they are not graded!


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## CambridgeParamour (25 May 2011)

Simsar said:



			Yes they have AI certs.  It means Non TB Register.
Awesome   
What if you were to use a racing TB they are not graded!
		
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 Point well made. If everyone used a graded stallion, three wouldnt be many racers left 

You have made my evening Simsar!


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## Simsar (25 May 2011)

You should get a lot of response and it will be on the neg side so brace yourself.  If you like him use him and bloody good luck, see you at the Olympics. x


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## CambridgeParamour (25 May 2011)

Simsar said:



			You should get a lot of response and it will be on the neg side so brace yourself.  If you like him use him and bloody good luck, see you at the Olympics. x
		
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Ive got my body protector at the ready  

Thank you! See you there  x


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## Roasted Chestnuts (25 May 2011)

TBH it would depend on what I was looking for.

I prefer welshies (not WB's yes I know my mare was an oddity buy lol ), they dont get graded, so I would let their conformation and their comp records as well as temperament sell them to me.

These are more important to me than a bit of paper that says they had soo many points therefore graded at a certain level. Grading to me is nothing without the comp record to go with it as are they not graded on their potential more than actual proven records???


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## Thistle (25 May 2011)

test breeding to your own mares is a good idea. That way, when he is graded next year your have a 'here's one i made earlier' to show what he can produce for paying custom.


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## Maesfen (25 May 2011)

Simsar said:



			You should get a lot of response and it will be on the neg side so brace yourself.  If you like him use him and bloody good luck, see you at the Olympics. x
		
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Oi you!  I'll never be negative about using ungraded stallions, I do it all the time and I'd use Spyder if I had the chance! 

Seriously, it's the horse in front of me that counts and if he doesn't have a piece of paper it doesn't worry me as long as he ticks all the boxes for my mare and if he was given the chance (which many ungraded stallions aren't  because of time, finance or ability of the stallion owner or a combination of all three) that he would be able to do the job well whatever job that may be.  All of the stallions that I have used that have been ungraded, have all produced their fair share of advanced eventers and dressage horses and Grade A show jumpers, that's without the myriad of show winners and fantastic  hunters and all rounders so what more could you ask for if it suits your mares?

As others have said, being graded owes a lot to who is on the end of the rein on that day and in some cases, it means diddley squat.

Let the mare owners decide whether they want to use your stallion or not; as he's only a youngster, they'll have to go on his looks and temperament for now but if you can get him out and about competing plus get his youngsters out too when old enough, they will be your shop window and the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Good luck with your boy.


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## magic104 (25 May 2011)

I think it is down to choice, neither camps should be knocked but there is good reason for grading & it is a shame that you guys are so negative about it.  It should not be thought of as a glorified showing event but a true indication & a bench mark.  Like everything in life there are exceptions, but the error mark is quiet low.  There are stallions who have failed only to go on to prove the graders wrong.  Percentage wise though, quiet low & no real reason not to put forward a stallion.  What concerns pro grading people is that a stallion can churn out so many more offspring then a mare.  And sadly not all stallion owners look at their boys objectively.  I have always used approved stallions at least, even though the AHS dont grade they still have a Premium scheme.  Surely it is helpful to the mare owner to know that the stallion they are using has passed certain tests & had clear X-Rays?  It is a form of standard, just a shame it varies so much from society to society.


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## classic_astra (25 May 2011)

i used an ungraded stallion on my unregistered crossbred mare, oooppps my bad!!! but the end result was a stunning filly that i couldnt have made better if i had physically built her myself!! sorry if that sounds big headed but one of the reasons i chose him was the quality of his offspring. NOT because he was or wasnt graded!


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## Simsar (26 May 2011)

magic104 said:



			I think it is down to choice, neither camps should be knocked but there is good reason for grading & it is a shame that you guys are so negative about it.  It should not be thought of as a glorified showing event but a true indication & a bench mark.  Like everything in life there are exceptions, but the error mark is quiet low.  There are stallions who have failed only to go on to prove the graders wrong.  Percentage wise though, quiet low & no real reason not to put forward a stallion.  What concerns pro grading people is that a stallion can churn out so many more offspring then a mare.  And sadly not all stallion owners look at their boys objectively.  I have always used approved stallions at least, even though the AHS dont grade they still have a Premium scheme.  Surely it is helpful to the mare owner to know that the stallion they are using has passed certain tests & had clear X-Rays?  It is a form of standard, just a shame it varies so much from society to society.
		
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Not wanting to start, but what is grading a ''true indication and benchmark'' of please? Look at it the other way look how many stallions pass inspection each year, how many of them actually go on to become anything more than if they hadn't been graded and had done it through comp results and progeny? There are hundreds of graded stallions out there who get less than a handful of mares a year. So why grade? 

You miss my point magic, grading is still just a few peoples opinions which you pay through the nose for, it is a showing class, the amount of horses that I have seen presented for grading in a ''of the field way'' that failed and then they have been represented ''properly'' and passed with flying colours, well I'm sorry but confo doesn't change that much and if the inspectors are that knowledgable surely they should be able to see through the turn out of said animals.

The difference is guidance and mare owners needing some honest guidance from others including the stallion owners, we are more than happy to turn a mare away that doesn't suit our boy, but I have never been turned away from a graded stallion, not even with unknown breeding Fugly mares that could have thrown dogs!

Since breeding has become more mainstream gradings have taken off, because people don't actually know what they are breeding towards and need a ''royal'' seal of approval before they would even look at a stallion. As for stallions being able to churn out stock, well with the amount of backyard breeders now days so do MANY unsuitable mares, which goes back to what I was saying about people knowing what they are breeding towards!


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## Maesfen (26 May 2011)

magic104 said:



			I think it is down to choice, neither camps should be knocked but there is good reason for grading & it is a shame that you guys are so negative about it.  It should not be thought of as a glorified showing event but a true indication & a bench mark.  Like everything in life there are exceptions, but the error mark is quiet low.  There are stallions who have failed only to go on to prove the graders wrong.  Percentage wise though, quiet low & no real reason not to put forward a stallion.  What concerns pro grading people is that a stallion can churn out so many more offspring then a mare.  And sadly not all stallion owners look at their boys objectively.  I have always used approved stallions at least, even though the AHS dont grade they still have a Premium scheme.  Surely it is helpful to the mare owner to know that the stallion they are using has passed certain tests & had clear X-Rays?  It is a form of standard, just a shame it varies so much from society to society.
		
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In some ways I agree with you M, being graded does give a mare owner, particularly a novice, some sort of standard but many forget progeny can only be as good or bad as the parents.  Many think by using a graded horse that it will cancel out any negatives of their mare which simply isn't true.
There are a lot of reasons why stallion owners don't put their horses through and in the cases I know it's because of time restraints (one man band stables with little help so no time or no facilities of their own) or even because of finance; there are lots of different reasons as to why something isn't presented but it's never because they don't think their stock is not good enough.  Their stock have spoken for themselves whether graded or not and they were invited to an awards dinner some years ago, were sitting next to a very nice young man who was very excited because his stallion had had a mare  visit at last.  The stallion had been out show jumping, it had cost him thousands to have it professionally produced, graded and publicized; after all that expense, he was happy that it had had one mare in two seasons.  What stallion owner would be happy with that sort of return - or could afford it either?   Why were they invited?  Their mare (their own breeding) had bred Horton Point, the Badminton winner.
The AHS Premium Scheme is a form of grading, of course it is, they have to be inspected and passed as suitable, just like a grading, the benefit in some parts can be it introduces more to Arab breeding as they get stud fees part paid when they register the foal, so very much an incentive for mare owners to use them; I've used it myself several times.



classic_astra said:



			i used an ungraded stallion on my unregistered crossbred mare, oooppps my bad!!! but the end result was a stunning filly that i couldnt have made better if i had physically built her myself!! sorry if that sounds big headed but one of the reasons i chose him was the quality of his offspring. NOT because he was or wasnt graded!
		
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My point entirely.  You should look at the horse in front of you to see if he suits, not his piece of paper.



Simsar said:



			You miss my point magic, grading is still just a few peoples opinions which you pay through the nose for, it is a showing class, the amount of horses that I have seen presented for grading in a ''of the field way'' that failed and then they have been represented ''properly'' and passed with flying colours, well I'm sorry but confo doesn't change that much and if the inspectors are that knowledgable surely they should be able to see through the turn out of said animals.
		
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Reminds me of the mare owner presenting her for grading; the graders said she would have looked and marked better if her tail was shorter.  She produced scissors and cut it, there and then - and got the higher mark she wanted.  Both graders were very experienced stallion owners and producers which allowed their view of the mare to be prejudiced, because, let's face it, what structural difference do a few inches on a tail make?; with their experience, they should have seen through that and awarded the mark the mare deserved in the first place.
A stallion owner had been eventing (with good results) and hunting his stallion prior to presenting for permanent grading (had been licensed as a youngster with flying colours and requested to return when working)  The horse was fighting fit, ready to run the next week and looked exactly what he was, a very fit eventer in tip top condition.  He performed brilliantly, jumped everything in front of him in a decent balanced way.  He was turned down; the reason given - he was too thin!  He's since gone on to a successful career, both as an eventer and a stallion, producing many very nice youngsters that are built for the job.
It's reasons like just those two mentioned, there are many more, that bring gradings into disrepute with some experienced breeders and why the mare owner should stand in front of the stallion and decide for themselves, not just rely on a piece of paper although I admit, it does give peace of mind to novices that in the main, they haven't used a complete dog of a horse - but it still has to suit the mare; neither can produce the goods if they either don't match or the mare is a bad specimen herself.


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## Avonbrook (26 May 2011)

Maesfen said:



			The AHS Premium Scheme is a form of grading, of course it is, they have to be inspected and passed as suitable, just like a grading, the benefit in some parts can be it introduces more to Arab breeding as they get stud fees part paid when they register the foal, so very much an incentive for mare owners to use them; I've used it myself several times.
		
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Just to expand slightly   The AHS Premium Performance Scheme uses the National Stallion Association (NaStA) test to grade its stallions with the addition of an assessment for "type" by 3 Arab Horse Society panel judges.  NaStA is, in my opinion and experience, the most rigorous grading carried out in this country being the only one that I am aware of that requires pre-certification as a condition of entry in dressage, show jumping and cross country and requires that the horses be tested under saddle in all three disciplines in addition to the more usual veterinary examinations, conformation and temperament assessments, loose jumping etc.  One of the assessors also rides each of the horses on the flat and over jumps.  This assessment is held over 2 days in August each year and is, I believe, open to all breeds although I think it is only the Arab Horse Society Performance Scheme and Trakhener Breeders Fellowship that require it.

It is an indicator of potential in that the dressage is novice level, the cross country is over pre-novice fences and the show jumping, from memory, about 1m.  However it is designed for young horses - any stallion over 5 years automatically has 5% of the final mark deducted and there is a 10% deduction for horses older than that again (think it is age 8 and over) - and was intended to emulate the 90 day test but modified to accomodate horses being prepared from home.

And no, other than owning a stallion who was graded within the scheme I have no connection with it!

eta Personally I have used stallions whose performance is proven in their discipline as readily as those with a formal grading.


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## Sportznight (26 May 2011)

And what of the stallion presented for grading by his owner and being turned down.  The re-presented by a 'name' and passing - the mark for his head improved by TWO points?  How does the shape of the head change?

I've used both graded and non-graded stallions on my graded mare.  I was showing this mare's passport to a knowledgable person the other day and she was gobsmacked at the mark she'd been given, when she looked at the horse in front of her...  In that one instance, at that grading, it was all about who you know...


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## maestro (26 May 2011)

Now I have two stallions one graded, although he failed one on his loose jumping and was reinvited after he went advanced, and one failed but he is 22 now and retired and in his time produced many nice alrounders.  So I have been through the mill and understand the good and bad of grading.  But to continue to breed in this day and age with new young stallions that are ungraded or even worse failed, in some cases on more than one occasion is fast becoming irresponable.
My old boy now I would have cut I see now their reasons were valid, although it was not on his conformation so the stock out there are on whole sound, things have moved on and standards need to be high.  But surely it would be better to support and help these societies come into the 21st century and make things more transparent then the knowledge of what is good and bad in each stallion and mare, who plays an even bigger part, is there to be seen.
I also feel that people with the failed stallions shouldnt see it as a failure if a stallion fails to make the grade as that horse would surely have a better life in this competitive market as a good gelding.


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## competitiondiva (26 May 2011)

I believe voltaire failed his grading originally and was then accepted into the studbook on competition results alone (correct me if I'm wrong on that?!) I'm quite interested in the responses here, I thought there'd be gasps of irresponsible and 'omg how can you' etc!!!  It's interesting to see people fight the flip side of this arguement!!  I actually went to see 2 ungraded stallions yesterday, one didn't float my boat, the other did very much so, he's an unproven 4 year old and the owners are not sure at this point if they will go down the grading route simply because of the costs involved!!  The stallion is lovely, good breeding, confo and I was even able to see a yearling by him as she used him on one of her mares as a 2 year old, which I found really helpful, I was very impressed with the yearling.  So based on this I would say go for it, if you like him and think he is good enough to produce good competition horses etc, if you have a 'here's one we made earlier' when he does go to public stud it helps alot!!!


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## Simsar (26 May 2011)

maestro said:



			Now I have two stallions one graded, although he failed one on his loose jumping and was reinvited after he went advanced, and one failed but he is 22 now and retired and in his time produced many nice alrounders.  So I have been through the mill and understand the good and bad of grading.  But to continue to breed in this day and age with new young stallions that are ungraded or even worse failed, in some cases on more than one occasion is fast becoming irresponable.
My old boy now I would have cut I see now their reasons were valid, although it was not on his conformation so the stock out there are on whole sound, things have moved on and standards need to be high.  But surely it would be better to support and help these societies come into the 21st century and make things more transparent then the knowledge of what is good and bad in each stallion and mare, who plays an even bigger part, is there to be seen.
I also feel that people with the failed stallions shouldnt see it as a failure if a stallion fails to make the grade as that horse would surely have a better life in this competitive market as a good gelding.
		
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I would have to disagree with you about the irresponsibility issue, a responsible stallion owner isn't afraid to say NO to a mare or owner who they feel will not benefit the stallion.

As for things moving on, do things ever really move on I see things go in circles and come right back round again, for example cloning, most of the horses cloned are those who competed a while ago what is to say they have what it takes now, eventing moved more towards the WB now it is back to the TB again.

As for helping the societies I agree with the transparency issues but they don't really help themselves here, there is a post on another forum at the minute discussing the recent HSI stallion inspections and how they are passing horse for Class 1 that are not of premium breed standard, by there own admission, horses are light of bone, tied in, cow hocked and only of 'sufficient' standard yet they are getting C1.


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## maestro (26 May 2011)

I agree the societies dont help themselves but they are made up of members who do have a say and should lobby the committees more and get involved, Im as guilty as the next with SHB(GB) not getting involved but then I shouldnt complain when nothing is improved then.  To be fair to them if I have actually got off my butt to say something there is a reasonable response.
Irresonsible to me is when there is a cover up by Stallion owners about valid failings and there is too much of that inthis country.  Plus if the cost of grading is too high then the owners of these stallions should look to wether they have the money to maintain a stallion.  Just my opinion but having had an injury to a stallion through a covering accident there is no cheap way to keep the boys.


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## Simsar (26 May 2011)

maestro said:



			I agree the societies dont help themselves but they are made up of members who do have a say and should lobby the committees more and get involved, Im as guilty as the next with SHB(GB) not getting involved but then I shouldnt complain when nothing is improved then.  To be fair to them if I have actually got off my butt to say something there is a reasonable response.

Irresonsible to me is when there is a cover up by Stallion owners about valid failings and there is too much of that inthis country.  Plus if the cost of grading is too high then the owners of these stallions should look to wether they have the money to maintain a stallion.  Just my opinion but having had an injury to a stallion through a covering accident there is no cheap way to keep the boys.
		
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I have found that it is quite hard to get your voices heard even as a collective, there are some who are just too set in there ways to even contemplate change and it makes you feel like your smacking your head against a wall and stay firmly on your butt!

Completely agree with the sentiment of your second paragraph


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## Sportznight (26 May 2011)

maestro said:



			Irresonsible to me is when there is a cover up by Stallion owners about valid failings and there is too much of that inthis country.
		
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Hence the need for transparency!


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## Simsar (26 May 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Oi you!  I'll never be negative about using ungraded stallions, I do it all the time and I'd use Spyder if I had the chance! 

Seriously, it's the horse in front of me that counts and if he doesn't have a piece of paper it doesn't worry me as long as he ticks all the boxes for my mare and if he was given the chance (which many ungraded stallions aren't  because of time, finance or ability of the stallion owner or a combination of all three) that he would be able to do the job well whatever job that may be.  All of the stallions that I have used that have been ungraded, have all produced their fair share of advanced eventers and dressage horses and Grade A show jumpers, that's without the myriad of show winners and fantastic  hunters and all rounders so what more could you ask for if it suits your mares?

As others have said, being graded owes a lot to who is on the end of the rein on that day and in some cases, it means diddley squat.

Let the mare owners decide whether they want to use your stallion or not; as he's only a youngster, they'll have to go on his looks and temperament for now but if you can get him out and about competing plus get his youngsters out too when old enough, they will be your shop window and the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Good luck with your boy.
		
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Now your just being Paranoid why oh why would I mean you, your so like me its untrue, poor moo. xx


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## Maesfen (26 May 2011)

Simsar said:



			Now your just being Paranoid why oh why would I mean you, your so like me its untrue, poor moo. xx
		
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Yes, we'll go to the funny farm together but at least we'll have each other......


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## Simsar (26 May 2011)

Who said that!


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## shirleyno2 (26 May 2011)

OK, here's one for you, I presented one stallion at 3 yrs to one studbook, he failed. Then took him to another studbook, passed would need to come back at 5 yrs for further approval. In November of his 5 yr old year he was stripped of his grading after having won or placed in every 5 yr final in the country [and Wales!!] with winnings in excess of £1,500, the reason, they didn't like his neck! Represented to 1st stud book, failed again though he did have a foot abcess brewing and by the time he was home he was hopping lame, returned for next grading and got accepted at the lower grading. This stallion has gone on to compete Internationally at some of the biggest shows, his two eldest offspring are competing at 1.40m plus and winning at decent shows, his younger progeny are all successfully competing affiliated at novice level.
He's a lovely stallion [I sold him 3 years ago] who throws stock with great necks!!!


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## Navalgem (26 May 2011)

I've used my colt, he'll stand at stud if he grades. If he doesnt he'll have to be cut before I can compete him. Such a shame.  I have however, only used him on graded broodmares!


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## MHSporthorses (26 May 2011)

I am also in a similar situation with my lad. I work full time as well as produce my horses from home with only the help of my mum, I have not presented my stallion for grading mainly because of the cost along with the chance of passing as an unknown!!
I still go to shows and am producing my lad very slowly and carefully as I want him to last and do not want to push him and ruin him at an early age. He will be 5 this year and is always admired when we go to our parties generating much interest from mare owners.
The downside is the BSJA....It is going to cost me a fortune to jump him, and although ultimately I will have to pay their £1000, I can jump up to 1m15 unaffiliated without paying any additional fees and intend to register him at that point and start competing him properly. At least we can go out to BD competitions without being discriminated against so he can still get plenty of mileage.
When I choose to use my boy I will go down the ntr route and carefully monitor the stock he throws and perhaps will grade him in the future if I choose. 
TBH, I know what I like, the same as most other horse owners/breeders out there. I do not require the opinion of another party whom I do not know or have any dealings dictating whether or not a stallion is appropriate or not.....after all...do they know my mare or what it is I am trying to breed???? sorry if this is waffle and makews no sense but I was in a rush!


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## Touchwood (26 May 2011)

Why can't the other British studbooks use the NASTA performance test as part of their grading?  They all say performance tests are too costly and time consuming to set up - there is a scheme right in place, can this not be used to start on the journey of improving the credibility of British stallion gradings?


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## koeffee (26 May 2011)

one of my stallions isnt graded fully, i took him to a zfdp pre assessment last year and they loved him and would like to see him this year, but to be honest im not sure i will take him? i am a one man band, i have a day job and i work full time doing the horses, and have a fab girl who helps out, but i cant afford the cost of producing him? rightly or wrongly i think he is a lovely horse and i will use him this year, if people like him and want to use him great, if not then i will have a few foals next year to assess them. However i have an approved one to take the pressure off so im not worried.


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## mellissa (26 May 2011)

You can get your ungraded stallion assessed by the bsja.  This will waive the £1000 fee if successful.  I think this is still the case - phone them. 1.15 is the jump off for five year olds anyway, some age classes for four/five years u dont even jump off so u would be fine.

Just check it out- i am pretty sure this is still the case- i could be wrong though.


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## Navalgem (26 May 2011)

mellissa said:



			You can get your ungraded stallion assessed by the bsja.  This will waive the £1000 fee if successful.  I think this is still the case - phone them. 1.15 is the jump off for five year olds anyway, some age classes for four/five years u dont even jump off so u would be fine.

Just check it out- i am pretty sure this is still the case- i could be wrong though.
		
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Yes they do still do this, I think you will find it happens at stallion gradings and is just as bad as the gradings themselves.


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## mellissa (26 May 2011)

I think they are ridden assessments to assess temperament and rideabilty.  If the aim is showjumping as a stallion then really the panels judgement is that discipline.  If it is 'as bad' as a breed grading, and the ultimate aim is not showjumping it may not be worth it.

Good luck to you x


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## mellissa (26 May 2011)

I just thought I would add- having belgian horses and researched thoroughly and dealt with belgian dealers- stringent assessment is how they have done it. Their ultimate aim is the showjumper, and really not many get through.  I am trying to breed top class horses, and use the top lines to do so.  But, if I think of the horses I have had on the way- who have been amazing and not worried when I missed, they were not top class horses.

There are many more riders out there wanting a lovely horse, than those competing top end- with top horses.  So, it wouldnt bother me if I was looking to breed a nice horse for a reasonable, but not top level.

The best stallions are with the best riders for a reason- but not everyone wants to, or can ride at a high level.


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## Navalgem (26 May 2011)

mellissa said:



			The best stallions are with the best riders for a reason- but not everyone wants to, or can ride at a high level.
		
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and not everyone who breeds a potential top class horse can afford to get them produced by a top class rider.  I think my colt has excellent breeding, his sire had 3 horses compete showjumping at the Olympics in Hong Kong, his damsire is the sire of the 2006 KWPN stallion selection, his grand dam is the full sister of Okidoki, his grandsire is the sire of cortaflex mondriaan, the list is endless and as an aside the damline produced Totilas. I also think his conf is pretty good and nice movement and loose jump, but i'd be willing to bet unless a pro takes him forward - he will not grade with me holding his reins.


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## mellissa (26 May 2011)

Hi navalgem, what is his breeding? Pm me if you would prefer.

I have to agree on the pro rider thing.  And it is very expensive- you are in the league of people with very good finances!


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## Navalgem (26 May 2011)

mellissa said:



			Hi navalgem, what is his breeding? Pm me if you would prefer.

I have to agree on the pro rider thing.  And it is very expensive- you are in the league of people with very good finances!
		
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Pm sent


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## MHSporthorses (27 May 2011)

The BSJA assessment is only for 1 year. you Then need to provide them with a Grading cert from one of their approved studbooks which incidently for ponies do not include the breed societies with which they will have been licensed and performance graded.


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## competitiondiva (27 May 2011)

Navalgem said:



			Pm sent 

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can you pm me too!!!


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## Blacklist (27 May 2011)

CambridgeParamour said:



			Is it really terrible using a stallion that hasn't been graded? 

This time, the stallion in question is mine (basically- 3 year old, failed the AES grading, has been asked back under saddle as a 4 or 5 year old- full thread here- http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=449723 )

I _may_ be interested on using him on my own mare this time next year. (wouldn't stand him at stud until he was graded.)

What are your opinions on this? 

Thanks guys.
		
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There are some wonderful ungraded stallions around and also some not so good. 

Grading can be costly - as long as the stallion has passed a vet and has good conformation I can't see a problem some stallion owners don't put there stallions forward for grading for all sorts of reasons not because they are not good enough.


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## Springs (28 May 2011)

Some great points here on grading and how poor it is in the UK. The BEF have their work cut out to improve British Breeding and they would be wise to note the points in this discussion. More horses more medals! 

The BSJA realy annoy me, the £1000 registration fee for stallions was introduced on health and safety grounds!!!!!!!!!!! so why do un graded stallions have to go through a jumping assessment? how is the jumping assessment assessing the safety of a stallion? 

Oh if you do pay the £1000 there are no checks to see if the stallion is safe etc....

I would love any senior committee members of the BSJA or BS to justify this to as it just sound like a rip off to me.


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## henryhorn (28 May 2011)

Our stallion was 18 before we decided perhaps we should attempt some sort of grading, and we contacted the NASTA organisers to put him through their grading, as at the time he was winning BE and Elementaries BD. Sadly they had so little support they cancelled that year's gradings. 
To grade him with SHB GB will cost us around £1000 and aged 20 it seems daft, so we will rely on the fact he was assessed twice under the Weatherby's system (aged 5 then again aged 16) and passed effortlessy both times. The vet (who is a much respected "tough" conformation type vet) told us his conformation was superb, and his movement exceptional. 
For us the proof he is ok to use is in his offspring, to date with just around 5 foals a year bred we have had not one but three different buyers approach us again to buy a second animal by him they were so delighted with their first. There are now a whole gang of owners on Facebook who share their successes and pleasure , he proved himself in competition despite his very late start so we will continue to use him ungraded. 
I admit had he been a five year old of course we would have gone down the grading route, these days it does seem necessary I'm afraid. You can't take your youngsters to Futurity for instance if by ungraded stallions after this year which is madness if they are attempting to improve British breeding, how else can owners discover they are on the right track? 
When it comes to selling buyers generally couldn't care less about the sire provided the horse they see and ride is exceptional, viewing siblings under saddle and in competitions is far more tempting than saying the sire is graded..
Yes of course there are some awful stallions out there, but I hate to say it, there are some dreadful GRADED stallions out there too!


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## sywell (29 May 2011)

As a breeder I would never use an unlicensed stallion as a famous stallion evaluator said "view you horse through the eyes of your most hated enemy and take off your rose tinted glasses". When you look at the statistics of licensed stallions who's EBV shows an 80% accuracy on its 3year old grading them you know it works. Yes there will always be exceptions but are you that clever. There are of course side issues if its not graded who is going to give you verified breeding papers,who is even going to record the breeding,you may be a very honest person but only people who know you know that. As Sam Barr said when he first started breeding he had no pedigree papers for his horses so when they were internationally successful there was no breeding accepted and he got no credit.


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## LynneB (29 May 2011)

henryhorn said:



			Our stallion was 18 before we decided perhaps we should attempt some sort of grading, and we contacted the NASTA organisers to put him through their grading, as at the time he was winning BE and Elementaries BD. Sadly they had so little support they cancelled that year's gradings. 
To grade him with SHB GB will cost us around £1000 and aged 20 it seems daft, so we will rely on the fact he was assessed twice under the Weatherby's system (aged 5 then again aged 16) and passed effortlessy both times. The vet (who is a much respected "tough" conformation type vet) told us his conformation was superb, and his movement exceptional. 
For us the proof he is ok to use is in his offspring, to date with just around 5 foals a year bred we have had not one but three different buyers approach us again to buy a second animal by him they were so delighted with their first. There are now a whole gang of owners on Facebook who share their successes and pleasure , he proved himself in competition despite his very late start so we will continue to use him ungraded. 
I admit had he been a five year old of course we would have gone down the grading route, these days it does seem necessary I'm afraid. You can't take your youngsters to Futurity for instance if by ungraded stallions after this year which is madness if they are attempting to improve British breeding, how else can owners discover they are on the right track? 
When it comes to selling buyers generally couldn't care less about the sire provided the horse they see and ride is exceptional, viewing siblings under saddle and in competitions is far more tempting than saying the sire is graded..
Yes of course there are some awful stallions out there, but I hate to say it, there are some dreadful GRADED stallions out there too!
		
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HH I think there is a world of difference between your boy - who, as you say has proven himself time and again through his offspring AND had the Weatherbys assessment (twice) and passed with flying colours - and those who have never seen a vet or grading process but are out there being put forward as stallions at the same price as those who have paid for their stallions to go through the grading process, which as you state is very expensive.  I do very much agree that even if a stallion is graded people still need to do their homework - I love seeing foals on the ground and what they are like from different mares.  I'd love to use your boy and if ever you get to doing travelling semen Sienna is ready and willing lol


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## magic104 (29 May 2011)

I am well aware that mistakes have been made & stallions missed & there are those that graded which I dont like.  What concerns me is that too many of us owners look at our horses with rose tinted specs.  You can see that when horses are presented for gradings, come on we must all be agreed that plenty turn up that are geldings, NOT stallion material.  If these people honestly think their horse has what it takes, then where does that leave mare owners.  With all due respect how many stallion owners turn down mares.  Therefore all you need is a mare with poor conformation and/or temperment put to a stallion with less then desirable conformation/temperment.  

Stallions produce far more offspring then a mare.  You have to wait 4yrs before the offspring come under saddle AND that is when you find out what the goods are really like.  I dont think the stallion can be held fully responsible for temperment, but it is a trait that can be carried over.  I have seen plenty of average stallions producing average stock, nothing wrong in that most of the UK riders are average.  But there is a glut of horses as it is & I think the bar ought to be raised.  It costs the same to breed, raise & keep any horse so it may as well be one that has a future as a sound horse for its owner. 

I keep my horses on a large livery yard of 40 horses, there are all sorts & what comes up time & again is that those with less then desirable conformation are the ones that continue to have soundness issues.  Even the happy hacker who only goes out a couple of times a week & may never even jump, can struggle.  When you look at their breeding it is either, unnknown, or by a stallion no one has every heard of.  So what do you do if you are trying to trace history?  And what otherway is there to test out if an issue is being passed on?

If a mare owner wants to use an ungraded stallion then fine, as just with graded stallions you wont know what the offspring are like until the start coming under saddle.  At least with a graded stallion I can contact the breed society & find out about him & then find out about offspring.  It might help that horses are now supposed to have passports & if the breeding is recorded then a track of how well offspring are doing.  Do I think mares should be graded, yes in an ideal world, but not all of us want our mares to just produce foals.  So for a one off, it hardly seems worth the expense, especially if she is in her teens.  As I said a stallion can produce multi offspring to a mares single contribution (well unless she produces twins!).  Nothing is perfect but that is no reason not to have standards is it?


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## jamesmead (29 May 2011)

magic104 said:



			So what do you do if you are trying to trace history?  And what otherway is there to test out if an issue is being passed on?
		
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For me this epitomises the usefulness of grading; it is a way of collecting information and evaluating it in order to assess potential. 

However, look at the racing thoroughbred; Weatherbys run probably the most accessible and best documented stud book available in Britain; perfectly integrated, moreover, with the TB studbooks of other nations throughout the world and one of the most useful evaluative tools there is; but there is no grading. For the TB the ability to make it on the racecourse and produce foals that do the same dictates its usefulness as a sire or dam; breeders are left to themselves to judge whether the horse was just lucky or was unsound but brilliant; but they have a myriad of statistics to help them. If you can't afford to prove your horse on the racecourse; well, he's unlikely to make the big time as a sire; but if you want to race him the opening is there for you to do so. You don't have to pay £1000 because someone hasn't said they like him and he may, therefore, be unsafe!

The result is one of the most generally able and workmanlike breeds there is; selected by performance, not grading, and though not without its limitations as no one breed can do everything, yet still being used as an improver by other breeds.

So no, grading is not the be all and end all of developing a performance animal; performance itself has to be the key. 

The TB isn't alone in this; look at the Standardbred; entry to that studbook was originally based on a requirement to be able to trot a certain distance in a given time; to meet a standard of performance.

Even the big sportshorse studbooks accept back into the fold top class achievers that have sometimes quite serious issues debarring them from grading as young horses. Something responsible like the KWPN will say "We register this horse on its performance, but its got THIS wrong with it". They did that recently, I think with a couple of sires? Then its up to the mare owner to evaluate the risk and weigh it against the possible advantages of using that horse.

Grading is a useful tool; a chance to see the horse assessed by experts and to hear their opinions. However, very often mare owners don't get to hear those opinions; they only get to hear a pass or a fail, which is worse than useless when a pass can elevate one horse who is actually nothing special and a fail can tarnish the reputation of another who may not be mature enough or may have a fault that you have to offset against his virtues.

So from grading I, as a mare owner, would want opinions, recommendations, information, but unless the society is trying to remove a particular deletarious gene (SCID or something of that kind) NOT a pass or fail per se.

If gradings were used as a tool for assessing potential and not a barrier to proof of potential by "PASS / FAIL" absolutism, I think there would be far more information collected, a greater uptake by breeders, less mistrust of graders' motives and no reason or temptation to avoid grading. Also there would be none of the stupid stuff where a prizewinning foal is by a failed stallion.

One last thing; breeding from an ungraded stallion is NOT irresponsible; breeding without engaging one's brain is the irresponsible thing; as mare owners we need to continually improve our understanding of conformation and how it works and contributes to soundness, rather than following the latest fad within our breed.


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## magic104 (29 May 2011)

jamesmead said:



			For me this epitomises the usefulness of grading; it is a way of collecting information and evaluating it in order to assess potential. 

However, look at the racing thoroughbred; Weatherbys run probably the most accessible and best documented stud book available in Britain; perfectly integrated, moreover, with the TB studbooks of other nations throughout the world and one of the most useful evaluative tools there is; but there is no grading. For the TB the ability to make it on the racecourse and produce foals that do the same dictates its usefulness as a sire or dam; breeders are left to themselves to judge whether the horse was just lucky or was unsound but brilliant; but they have a myriad of statistics to help them. If you can't afford to prove your horse on the racecourse; well, he's unlikely to make the big time as a sire; but if you want to race him the opening is there for you to do so. You don't have to pay £1000 because someone hasn't said they like him and he may, therefore, be unsafe!

The result is one of the most generally able and workmanlike breeds there is; selected by performance, not grading, and though not without its limitations as no one breed can do everything, yet still being used as an improver by other breeds.

So no, grading is not the be all and end all of developing a performance animal; performance itself has to be the key. 

The TB isn't alone in this; look at the Standardbred; entry to that studbook was originally based on a requirement to be able to trot a certain distance in a given time; to meet a standard of performance.

Even the big sportshorse studbooks accept back into the fold top class achievers that have sometimes quite serious issues debarring them from grading as young horses. Something responsible like the KWPN will say "We register this horse on its performance, but its got THIS wrong with it". They did that recently, I think with a couple of sires? Then its up to the mare owner to evaluate the risk and weigh it against the possible advantages of using that horse.

Grading is a useful tool; a chance to see the horse assessed by experts and to hear their opinions. However, very often mare owners don't get to hear those opinions; they only get to hear a pass or a fail, which is worse than useless when a pass can elevate one horse who is actually nothing special and a fail can tarnish the reputation of another who may not be mature enough or may have a fault that you have to offset against his virtues.

So from grading I, as a mare owner, would want opinions, recommendations, information, but unless the society is trying to remove a particular deletarious gene (SCID or something of that kind) NOT a pass or fail per se.

If gradings were used as a tool for assessing potential and not a barrier to proof of potential by "PASS / FAIL" absolutism, I think there would be far more information collected, a greater uptake by breeders, less mistrust of graders' motives and no reason or temptation to avoid grading. Also there would be none of the stupid stuff where a prizewinning foal is by a failed stallion.

One last thing; breeding from an ungraded stallion is NOT irresponsible; breeding without engaging one's brain is the irresponsible thing; as mare owners we need to continually improve our understanding of conformation and how it works and contributes to soundness, rather than following the latest fad within our breed.
		
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I would not disagree with the above at all.  I have never said an ungraded stallion is any less inferior to a graded one.    And having attended some of the gradings I feel that it is unhelpful not to share in the process.  Mare owners should know if a stallion does not go through the reasons why especially if then he goes on to stand as a stallion regardless.  The Crofter had a son go forward with SHGB, he did not pass but now stands graded with IDUK.  The horse has had sucess in the show ring, so even more reason to know what it was that the SHGB judges did not like.  It just causes issues like the ones being discussed here.  

If we were doing it right, ie breeding correctly at the top end of the market, then how come so many dressage & show jumping riders are mounted on horse bred outside the UK?  What makes the rest of Europe better, or the perception they are better?  Of course they have/had funding & support from their governments.  They also have a better system in place to train their riders.  There is a lot more pieces to the jigsaw then just whether you use a graded stallion or the worth of a graded stallion.  And though natives dont have gradings, I thought they did at least opperate an approval system?  I think there have been huge improvements over the years & may they continue & judging by many of the foals seen on this forum they are doing just that.  Nothing is perfect, but there is no reason not to stride for it.


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## Holly831 (29 May 2011)

jamesmead said:



			One last thing; breeding from an ungraded stallion is NOT irresponsible; breeding without engaging one's brain is the irresponsible thing; as mare owners we need to continually improve our understanding of conformation and how it works and contributes to soundness, rather than following the latest fad within our breed.
		
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Ditto! I have used ungraded stallions and had some really good foals, I have been to view some graded stallions that I personally would have had gelded!


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## angrovestud (29 May 2011)

The thing that leaves a odd taste in my mouth is if a stallion is failed then goes back having got his performance the said graders then go ahead and say oh yes hes graded! it smacks to me off being risk averse ! I have seen this with our bloodline and It just dose not sit well.
If you can not spot talent at a young age what are you doing being allowed to grade controversial I know but not right as a stallion owner if I had taken the crown jewels off a stallion and then he went on to be top class beatng graded horses and worth 1.5 million wearing his Jewels,  I think i would be just a little hacked off!
just my thoughts might be wrong but somehow the system needs to be adapted as to allow talent to flurish by a certain age as stud books are open anyway you can still get a full pedigree except from Weatherbys and AHS which are closed stud books so it seems not to matter if you can register your foal with a pedigree


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## Touchwood (29 May 2011)

Actually Angrove, I have no problem with the stallions who are graded due to performance - arguably, their success despite a smallcoming is to be applauded.  But as said above, it must be done is a sensible and open manner, like the KWPN do.

As I have said before, Weatherby's do not have a grading system, but their information and statistics means that the market self regulates - you do not NEED grading!  If you want to breed a sprinter, or a stayer - all the stats lead you straight to the stallion you need to use, and what is within your budget.  There are hundreds of years worth of records, that point you to the kind of lines and nicks that work well together.  There is currently NOTHING like this available in the UK for sportshorses, which prevents people making informed decisions.


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## magic104 (29 May 2011)

angrovestud said:



			The thing that leaves a odd taste in my mouth is if a stallion is failed then goes back having got his performance the said graders then go ahead and say oh yes hes graded! it smacks to me off being risk averse ! I have seen this with our bloodline and It just dose not sit well.
If you can not spot talent at a young age what are you doing being allowed to grade controversial I know but not right as a stallion owner if I had taken the crown jewels off a stallion and then he went on to be top class beatng graded horses and worth 1.5 million wearing his Jewels,  I think i would be just a little hacked off!
just my thoughts might be wrong but somehow the system needs to be adapted as to allow talent to flurish by a certain age as stud books are open anyway you can still get a full pedigree except from Weatherbys and AHS which are closed stud books so it seems not to matter if you can register your foal with a pedigree
		
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That is why they should be speaking out at the time.  It would be a lot easier to identify any shortcomings & act on them ie some training perhaps.  It needs to be more transparent, there is a lot of trust put in these people.


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## angrovestud (30 May 2011)

I am in fact referring to Sarahs Pride who went to the hanovarian grading in 1995 where he failed god knows what on wrong colour boots on the owner perhaps! anyway he was a four year old and had covered my mares mum Thank god! but then was gelded,after 

£25,0000 ! Grade A international double Puissance winner later ! and  beat both Arko and Randi he did go for a great amount of money to the USA , but had he been a stallion the figure offered to his owner was 1.5 million.
This Story from the horses mouth has taught me to never trust Opinion as it is often wrong so what if Sarahs pride was not "Correct " or any other clever little buzz word made up by theses so called preacher graders! they are not going to pay the Marsdens the 1000000 they lost are they!
one day is simply not enough time to evaluate the future of young horse.

From Shetland to Shire a workable system, think of a stallion having a morgage you can conribute more or less depends on the indivdual horse and person, but a life long points index for stallions 

The start

marks out of 10 
I think what I would like to see is at three compulsory vetting of all 2/3 year old colts at home to provide a license for the stallion which could be passed on if sold.
 vetting under 5 fail over 5 pass
and provisional covering certificates for 5 mares to be made acceptable by any breed society.
Throughout the horses life any competition it succeeds in points are added even local shows up to Olympic standard max 100 gold medal 1 point winning a local class at any unaffil level

  The progeny that are out competing could also be added and gain yet more points for the stallion so as he gets older his Index should rise the market will be able to see which stallions and progeny are doing well this is a fair system based upon results not opinions 
it could work for any stallion be it showing or top competition 
ideal database for this to work could be a workable version could be a commercial company charging so much per year for the data storage you would register your horse and be given a username and password which you can update with real info from BSJA BD BE and the HOYS info is recorded and Endurance is to and racing.


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## Springs (31 May 2011)

sywell said:



			As a breeder I would never use an unlicensed stallion as a famous stallion evaluator said "view you horse through the eyes of your most hated enemy and take off your rose tinted glasses". When you look at the statistics of licensed stallions who's EBV shows an 80% accuracy on its 3year old grading them you know it works. Yes there will always be exceptions but are you that clever. There are of course side issues if its not graded who is going to give you verified breeding papers,who is even going to record the breeding,you may be a very honest person but only people who know you know that. As Sam Barr said when he first started breeding he had no pedigree papers for his horses so when they were internationally successful there was no breeding accepted and he got no credit.
		
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We have never had any issues with getting the breeding verified. we have just done it on ans ISH imported from Ireland by DNA testing cost about £75 for the test and about £50 for the passport to be updated!


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## Eothain (31 May 2011)

Just glanced quickly through this thread. Will respond in more detail some other time.

Ungraded? Not for me!

Also, I hate the argument that there are more oppertunities for people to sell nice all rounders than top class performers, be it show jumpers, dressage horses or eventers. That's a load of bulls**t. Do you really think that the pros don't want to be able to find more top quality horses? Not every horse will win a Grand Prix/Nation's Cup or get to 1.50/1.60 but if you breed horses that hit the 1.35/1.40 range, you'll find yourself with a hell of a lot of potential buyers.
Aim for the ground, breed dirt.
Aim for the stars, breed an animal that can get itself up in the air.

Like I said, more detail some other time


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## Dowjones (31 May 2011)

I personally wouldn't let a stallion of mine near a mare if he was unproven or ungraded.
There are enough quality stallions out there to produce a more quality allrounder, so why settle for something unproven?


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## Maesfen (31 May 2011)

Dowjones said:



			There are enough quality stallions out there to produce a more quality allrounder, so why settle for something unproven?
		
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That's a very blinkered view to have as some ungraded stallions are producing more than their fair share of decent competition horses and some a lot more than some graded stallions.  
Just because they haven't been graded for some reason does not mean they are all unproven getters or mediocre at all.  Each stallion should be taken on its own merits to how it will suit that particular mare not just because it has that slip of paper which is pertinent to that one day in time.  
Many mare owners, particularly novice breeders assume that just because it has the magic bit of paper that it will be alright to use on any mare; in some cases it will be and in others they could be stallions you wouldn't put to a donkey (apologies to any donkey owners out there)  
Each stallion on its merits, nothing more, nothing less, a bit of paper is just a bonus if it's the right horse for that mare.


NB: by bit of paper, I mean a grading slip; it goes without saying that nowadays you should use a stallion that has verifiable breeding that can be noted in the foal passport.


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## magic104 (31 May 2011)

As I said find it quiet sad the negative attitude towards grading.  If the mare owner is happy to use an ungraded stallion no one is saying they are wrong.  Life is full of exceptions to the rule, there just are not enough of then.  How many horses at the top of their game are by ungraded stallions.  But then I believe there are enough travelling folk breeding gypsy cobs without the man in the street following suit.  They are years ahead & the markets are full of them, but still people breed more.  And when the Americans went ape for them, well there was no stopping some people.  There is a lot of wastage in other European countries because of the volume they breed in, & the meatman has a good supply.  

People should be trying to improve the processes not do away with them.  I would rather see a performance type grading run over a min of 30 days.  But these discussions have been held many times before & it is just another topic that goes round in circles.  Not everyone has the experience to truely judge a horse & do you really think it is a good idea to always leave it to owners to decide?


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## Eothain (1 June 2011)

Negativity towards gradings/approvals is a joke and nothing more than a throwback to yesteryear when there was no approvals, then along came those dastardly Continentals and introduced Stallion Gradings and then improved the quality of their stock. There'll always be a freak like Voltaire. There's no point in trying to be the exception to the rule, try to be the standard.
No, one day gradings are not enough. They should be ran over a number of days at least. I think HSI has got it just right over here for where we are at the moment. Young horses get their Preliminary Approval after two days assessment and they have it until they're ten. They have to hit certain performance levels or have their progeny hit an age related level by a certain time or they become Not Approved1. Not Approved2 are for horses who failed the vet. Our inspectors were all trained in Holland, so their comments carry some validity. Hopefully in the future, Ireland will have the initial inspections developed into a 30 day inspection.
Horses who become NA1 at their initial inspection can become approved under the High Performance criteria if they jump four double clear rounds at 1.40m in Showjumping or the equivalent in Dressage/Eventing. To be honest though, if a stallion can't jump four double clear rounds at 1.40m, then it's not good enough to be a stallion. I know there'll always be exceptions to the rule like Contender, who only competed until he was 5 and jumped 1.20m but again, why hold out to be the exception?
It's like breeders trying to breed small horses to jump 1.60m. Horses like Itot Du Chateau are real freaks. A 15.2hh horse that can jump with the best of them. Why try to breed that though? It's not commercial, you'll fail far easier than the guy trying to breed the 16.2hh to jump the same 1.60m track. Doesn't matter if you have one mare or one hundred and one mares, you should always try to think about the big picture.
What is the big picture? It's the Sport Horse Industry as a whole in whatever country you may be in.
How many ungraded stallions rank in the top 250 in the world? How many breeders have walked the Derby track at Hickstead? How many breeders have walked a 1.40m+ track of fences? If not, why not? There's no point in having a disconnect between breeder and market!!!

I've gone slightly off topic but in the broad sense, it's part of the same point. List systems for stallions just about work in the thoroughbred sector because of the sheer number of easily accessable statistics. You'll still have people trying to breed racehorses to win the Derby or the Cheltenham Gold Cup from horses who are slower than a rainy weekend. It simply doesn't work. List systems would be a complete and utter failure in the Sport sector because of the length of time it takes to get horses up to a high level of performance. By the time you discover who's worth cutting and who isn't, they're on their deathbeds and the market is flooded with poor quality, non-performing, unwanted stock and that in itself feeds into a welfare problem because no one will spend money on them and people are too soft to cut losses and send horses to be canned. Quality horses, that are useful will prevent a welfare crisis because people will in turn get their money back out of them and therefore not be afraid to spend a bit on them in the first place. Again, that's the big picture!

Off topic again, sorry!

But hey, look, If you really want to be cynical, then why not chuck four hundred quid at a big name stud to present your pride and joy? It'll be one covering at least before you have it back and in that case, it's money well spent.

Get your horses out, get them graded, take the inspectors word for what it is. Rose tinted glasses are of no use to anyone. Mediocrity does not make commercial sense. What is commercial sense? Following a train of thought to achieve profit? Not looking for profit? You're in the wrong business. Gradings are not just pieces of paper, they're telling you that the product you have in your ownership is a valuable entity that they believe will do some good ... for the Industry!


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## maestro (1 June 2011)

Well said Eothain in a much more balanced way than I could.  Its the grading system that actually needs to be more approachable but while ever people just say they are not necessary they can not progress really there are not the numbers of stallions brought forward to any of the gradings to justify the expense.  If they could just band them together with a system as you speak about then there would be much more clarity.


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## shirleyno2 (1 June 2011)

I've walked the Hickstead derby course!! And produced Skip Two Ramiro who won it last year! And bred one stallion who was 4th in it too!!
But on a more serious note, aren't all the superstars freaks really? If you take a name like Darco [or Cruising!!! ] who have hundreds or thousands of progeny, where are they all? Those foreigners haven't got it all worked out yet or there would be thousands of superstars around....


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## Sportznight (1 June 2011)

Eothian, I think the negativity towards grading in the UK, is mainly due to the lack of transparency and unfortunately it IS a case of who's who, WRT the handler!  The latter has sadly been proven to me on more than one occasion.


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## Dowjones (1 June 2011)

Maesfen said:



			That's a very blinkered view to have as some ungraded stallions are producing more than their fair share of decent competition horses and some a lot more than some graded stallions.  
Just because they haven't been graded for some reason does not mean they are all unproven getters or mediocre at all.  Each stallion should be taken on its own merits to how it will suit that particular mare not just because it has that slip of paper which is pertinent to that one day in time.  
Many mare owners, particularly novice breeders assume that just because it has the magic bit of paper that it will be alright to use on any mare; in some cases it will be and in others they could be stallions you wouldn't put to a donkey (apologies to any donkey owners out there)  
Each stallion on its merits, nothing more, nothing less, a bit of paper is just a bonus if it's the right horse for that mare.


NB: by bit of paper, I mean a grading slip; it goes without saying that nowadays you should use a stallion that has verifiable breeding that can be noted in the foal passport.
		
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I don't see how I have a very blinkered view on breeding becase (as i said previously) PERSONALLY i would not use an ungraded stallion. I don't frown upon someone who uses an ungraded stallion, that's their choice to make.

However with the amount of stallions out there, it's easy to find a good stallion who has a proven record and is approved so i prefer to not settle for less. I do not just settle for a piece of paper. I judge the individual horse in front of me, his temperment, movement and conformation along with his and his offsprings competition record. There's also the added bonus of the graded stallion having gone through the vetting.


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## millitiger (1 June 2011)

It does make me wonder how many of the people so against an ungraded stallion are happy to use an ungraded mare?

Yes, a stallion can have 100's of progeny to a mare's handful but imo either you buy into the grading system or you don't and anything else is very hypocritical.


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## lloyd (1 June 2011)

all stallions where / are ungraded at some stage. use what you like , your breding a foal for yourself after all.


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## Sportznight (1 June 2011)

lloyd said:



			all stallions where / are ungraded at some stage. use what you like , your breding a foal for yourself after all.
		
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Not necessarily...


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## templewood (1 June 2011)

My stallions are graded with their breed society. I wouldn't grade them with the Sports Horse Registers because I don't agree that a dressage stallion should have the same conformation or jumping ability as a showjumper or eventer. IMO the majority of WB's can't collect because they are all purpose animals and expected to be showjumpers too, which requires entirely different conformation, eg. longer backs, not good for collection. My older stallion comes from a family of International GP dressage horses. I breed for dressage. Why should I be forced into changing a breed of horse that has excelled at dressage for centuries?


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## Spring Feather (1 June 2011)

millitiger said:



			It does make me wonder how many of the people so against an ungraded stallion are happy to use an ungraded mare?

Yes, a stallion can have 100's of progeny to a mare's handful but imo either you buy into the grading system or you don't and anything else is very hypocritical.
		
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I half agree with you.  For me I would not consider breeding an ungraded mare OR using an ungraded stallion.  For others it is their choice.  I don't think it is hypocritical of say an owner with a mare of unknown heritage breeding for a foal to keep and wanting to use a graded stallion.  Heck maybe she likes the graded stallion better than ungraded ones, or maybe she has limited funds or travelling capabilities.  I would say that is being practical rather than hypocritical, in the same light as me only using graded animals because they are what my business is based on


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## angrovestud (1 June 2011)

I have just been chatting to the owner of SP and he informed me that when sp failed his grading they were told if he had brought in a grade A they would have graded him.
and I have just finished reading a great Artical re stallions who are in houndreds of pedigrees on this same subject many of which would not have been stallions if graders had got there way!
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/11/salon-de-refuses-the-stallions-that-almost-werent/
this was posted on the HHO FB page by someone else its a great read


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## millitiger (1 June 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			I half agree with you.  For me I would not consider breeding an ungraded mare OR using an ungraded stallion.  For others it is their choice.  I don't think it is hypocritical of say an owner with a mare of unknown heritage breeding for a foal to keep and wanting to use a graded stallion.  Heck maybe she likes the graded stallion better than ungraded ones, or maybe she has limited funds or travelling capabilities.  I would say that is being practical rather than hypocritical, in the same light as me only using graded animals because they are what my business is based on 

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I didn't say it was hypocritical to use a graded stallion with an ungraded mare, I said it was hypocritical to say you will only ever use a graded stallion but you are happy to breed with an ungraded mare- big difference 

Many people on this thread who are saying they would only ever use a graded stallion don't own graded mares and for me, that does not make sense.


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## magic104 (2 June 2011)

millitiger said:



			I didn't say it was hypocritical to use a graded stallion with an ungraded mare, I said it was hypocritical to say you will only ever use a graded stallion but you are happy to breed with an ungraded mare- big difference 

Many people on this thread who are saying they would only ever use a graded stallion don't own graded mares and for me, that does not make sense.
		
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Why?  If you only are looking at 1 or 2 foals from her?  I have graded my mares in the past, one daughter also graded.  It never made any difference when selling them, they were more interested in the horse that stood in front of them.  In an ideal world yes we would only breed from graded mares.  When I got back into it. I had every intention of putting them forward, but then they produced colts & as I had no intention of breeding again, I did not bother.  I commited the worst sin ever, because not only was my mare ungraded, she is unpapered.  Her son at the start of his 4th year has at novice level from 7 classes collected 29 BD pts in March alone.  He is trainable, he is willing, has straight & balanced movement.  Rightly or wrongly I feel justified in breeding him.  The 5yo is out of a reg mare, but not graded, & hopefully we can now get going with him.  Horror of horrors is my last attempt at breeding a filly from a reg TB who again is not graded.  I liked her filly more then the full brother.  Mostly though I like the mare, I like her attitude, she has a smile on her face all the time & gives 100%.  If I had known just how honest she was it is doubtful I would have put her in-foal as I would rather have kept her in work.

It is cheaper & makes more sense to go & buy your youngster then breed from it.  There is no better buzz for me then to pick the mate, then (so far so good) watch the foal develope.  Then see it under saddle & again so far so good, they have been just fine.  To date I have not used an ungrade/unapproved stallion, because I do actually believe in the concept.  IF I get my filly then she will be put forward for grading, if she is good enough & my daughter wants to carry on then perhaps there will be another foal in the distant future.


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## Navalgem (2 June 2011)

Sportznight said:



			Eothian, I think the negativity towards grading in the UK, is mainly due to the lack of transparency and unfortunately it IS a case of who's who, WRT the handler!  The latter has sadly been proven to me on more than one occasion.
		
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I wholeheartedly agree.  The handler does make a difference over here, I am sad to say it but it is true.

I also agree with Eothian.... 400 or so quid for a big name stud to present your pride and joy is money well spent, if he still does not grade then he obviously wasnt good enough so you swallow the pill and go home.

and also - I agree that more than one day is needed for a proper assessment.  I think the HSI system is a good start.  There's a reason that they have 30 -100 day tests abroad.

Can I ask whether anyone feels it makes a difference for mares or stallions to be graded if you are breeding say for the amateur market up to 1.20 level ish?  Not everyone wants a 16.2 and the majority of people want a 16hh trainable, willing, rideable horse, not a superstar but 'good enough' for their ability/hopes/dreams etc, or do they just make do with the 'cast offs' from the creme de la creme?

Sadly I know many people on both sides of the equation, those that breed purely for performance, 'sod ridability/temperament to an extent - a pro can handle it' attitudes, those that want to breed their family pet cause she's special to me so joe bloggs' stallion down t'road will do, plus the kind that want to breed the 'freak'.

I've also seen very talented 16.2 model sporthorse types throw in the towel as imho they were pushed too far too fast, or does it mean because they weren't ready to jump the 7yo age class and go GP by 9/10 they were useless?  Though maybe if taken slower they'd have made it eventually?  I remember when it was unusual for a horse to be under 11/12 doing GP, it seems they get younger and younger now.  I recently read William Funnels comments on Beowulf in Zangersheide's magazine, he says something along the lines of he's done the speed classes and been taken slowly but is now ready to start jumping one or two GP's but will not be his main horse just yet.

Eothian I also think there are more exceptions to the rule height wise - they just rarely get chance because they dont fit the sterotype bill of being a 16.2 they are 'thrown away' so to speak, like Nababs Son Z almost was.  It truly is a rhetorical question as we'll never have enough horses of the 15.2 -16.1 height bracket given the chance. 

As for where I stand - if i was aiming to breed a potential 'top' horse, yes it'd have to have a graded sire, a graded dam or at the least a dam who had proven herself in competition at national level at least or had a full sibling who had and yes I'd want one to make 16.2 so as to make him/her commercially viable.  I also happen to think that there are enough good 'top' horses out there that temperament, rideability, attitude etc do not need to be compromised on either.  I do believe in gradings, I just think the UK system is flawed.  I am however pleased to see that the AES is now asking for x-rays too, it's a step in the right direction.


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## millitiger (2 June 2011)

magic104 said:



			Why?  If you only are looking at 1 or 2 foals from her?  I have graded my mares in the past, one daughter also graded.  It never made any difference when selling them, they were more interested in the horse that stood in front of them.  In an ideal world yes we would only breed from graded mares.  When I got back into it. I had every intention of putting them forward, but then they produced colts & as I had no intention of breeding again, I did not bother.  I commited the worst sin ever, because not only was my mare ungraded, she is unpapered.  Her son at the start of his 4th year has at novice level from 7 classes collected 29 BD pts in March alone.  He is trainable, he is willing, has straight & balanced movement.  Rightly or wrongly I feel justified in breeding him.  The 5yo is out of a reg mare, but not graded, & hopefully we can now get going with him.  Horror of horrors is my last attempt at breeding a filly from a reg TB who again is not graded.  I liked her filly more then the full brother.  Mostly though I like the mare, I like her attitude, she has a smile on her face all the time & gives 100%.  If I had known just how honest she was it is doubtful I would have put her in-foal as I would rather have kept her in work.

It is cheaper & makes more sense to go & buy your youngster then breed from it.  There is no better buzz for me then to pick the mate, then (so far so good) watch the foal develope.  Then see it under saddle & again so far so good, they have been just fine.  To date I have not used an ungrade/unapproved stallion, because I do actually believe in the concept.  IF I get my filly then she will be put forward for grading, if she is good enough & my daughter wants to carry on then perhaps there will be another foal in the distant future.
		
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Sorry magic I find it rather hard to read your post  And I'm not sure if either I haven't explained myself fully or you have misunderstood me.

I am not sure how relevant to the point you are trying to make, your mare's life history is or what her progeny are doing?

I have no issue with using ungraded mares, but then I also have no issue with ungraded stallions, so you don't need to explain your breeding decision to use an ungraded mare to me! 


What I am trying to say is that people seem to see a huge difference between using an ungraded stallion and an ungraded mare.

There is an ungraded stallion who has produced many Advanced eventers including 1 x 3*** and 1 x 4**** with many more coming up through the ranks. 
He is beautifully bred with a lovely temperament and passes on great rideability- according to many people on this thread they wouldn't even consider him because he is ungraded.

However, if I had a mare who was well bred, good temp and had produced an Advanced eventer or two, I doubt people would tell me not to bother breeding from her until she is graded and that imo is hypocritical.


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## Maesfen (2 June 2011)

millitiger said:



			I have no issue with using ungraded mares, but then I also have no issue with ungraded stallions, so you don't need to explain your breeding decision to use an ungraded mare to me! 


What I am trying to say is that people seem to see a huge difference between using an ungraded stallion and an ungraded mare.

There is an ungraded stallion who has produced many Advanced eventers including 1 x 3*** and 1 x 4**** with many more coming up through the ranks. 
He is beautifully bred with a lovely temperament and passes on great rideability- according to many people on this thread they wouldn't even consider him because he is ungraded.

However, if I had a mare who was well bred, good temp and had produced an Advanced eventer or two, I doubt people would tell me not to bother breeding from her until she is graded and that imo is hypocritical.
		
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Very well put.


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## TarrSteps (3 June 2011)

CambridgeParamour said:



 Point well made. If everyone used a graded stallion, three wouldnt be many racers left 

You have made my evening Simsar!
		
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Although, how many TB stallions stand, at least for any money and getting god mares, without being "performance tested" through racing.  Also, since most breeders are breeding for Yearling Sales, first and foremost, you're waiting two years, maybe three until the first crop races, to test the stallion on progeny.  And horses that don't produce fall out of both favour and the stratosphere, fee-wise, almost instantly.  Also, they are selecting for one and one thing only - speed.  (Increasingly, early speed.)  So it's not really the same as sport breeding.

For sport horses, you're waiting probably closer to 10 years until the first progeny reach upper level competition, although good YH results will definitely help keep a horse in the spotlight.  Even by six years in, which is the earliest you'll be able to tell anything for sure about ridability etc of progeny, the horse will still have a fair few offsping on the ground.  The studbooks are at least partially trying to limit the "margin for error" by excluding horses they don't think will have offspring that will make top grade.  Also, given the big picture, from the book's point of view it's better to exclude a few potentially great horses than include some obviously mediocre ones.  It's easy enough to produce mediocre horses from good stock.

I would also argue that a horse being unapproved is no argument it will produce good all rounders.  Where's the reasoning in that?  I also suspect there are quite a lot of good horses out there that ARE the products of established breeding systems, warmblood or otherwise, they're just not registered for whatever reason, such as being crossbred.  So technically, they wouldn't be here if lots of people hadn't paid attention to the attributes of the horses that came before . . . 

By the same token, of course there are well bred horses that aren't approved, perhaps through no fault of their own.  But they themselves are the product of a system predicated on approvals . . . 

All breeding known quantities does is lower the risk factors somewhat, it doesn't guarantee perfection BUT surely, given the huge risks associated with breeding, it makes sense to start with as known a quantity as possible?

On the subject of an ungraded stallion producing top event horses . . . a couple of points.

One, none of the "big" books, with the possible exception of Trakehers, have produced primarily for eventing.  So, historically, you are much more likely to find an event sire that's slipped through the cracks.  You are also more likely to find event breeders less inclined to worry about approvals, simply because it's less likely that horses have been presented and failed. 

Odds are, if the horse was presented now it would be approved, with performance progeny results.  I agree, it won't do anything for it now but presumably the horse is quite old (if he's got 4* progeny he could not realistically be less than 12 or 13) - could the same be said if he was starting out in the current market?  

I think the issue with stallions is the numbers game.  A mare is only going to have one foal a year so, max, you're only going to put three into the gene pool if a big problem shows up.  With a stallions, potentially, it could be a lot more.  Personally, I'd want the best possible mare, approved if possible, simply because I have seen time and again, that good mares from good mare lines are FAR more likely to deliver the goods.  Out of interest, for the above unapproved stallion, who are the dams of the top result winners?

That last bit, for me, is the POINT of organised breeding - knowing how to increase the odds of producing ANOTHER great horse, or at least a very good one.  If you don't know how you made the first one, how do you increase your odds of making another?


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## millitiger (3 June 2011)

TarrSteps said:



			On the subject of an ungraded stallion producing top event horses . . . a couple of points...

Odds are, if the horse was presented now it would be approved, with performance progeny results.  I agree, it won't do anything for it now but presumably the horse is quite old (if he's got 4* progeny he could not realistically be less than 12 or 13) - could the same be said if he was starting out in the current market?
		
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Could the same 'what' be said if he was starting out in the current market? 
Yes he probably would be graded now based on performance but would that make him a better stallion, more likely to produce the goods? 
IMO no, it would certainly make him an option to people who only use graded stallions but it wouldn't change what he produces.
The owners would get more revenue from him but it wouldn't improve the sport horse breeding genepool.



TarrSteps said:



			I think the issue with stallions is the numbers game.  A mare is only going to have one foal a year so, max, you're only going to put three into the gene pool if a big problem shows up.  With a stallions, potentially, it could be a lot more.  Personally, I'd want the best possible mare, approved if possible, simply because I have seen time and again, that good mares from good mare lines are FAR more likely to deliver the goods.  Out of interest, for the above unapproved stallion, who are the dams of the top result winners?
		
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But why would it bother you as a breeder whether he produces a handful of horses or dozens?
Certainly it matters to his owner (and his wallet ) but why it would matter to you as the individual mare owner I'm not sure?

IMO it comes down to making sure your own programme is the best it can be before throwing stones- it seems totally illogical to me to use non-graded mares but be happy to dismiss any ungraded stallion when surely you should be judging each 50% of potential DNA in the same way?

Out of interest, why would you want the mare 'approved if possible' as opposed to 'must be approved?'

This particular stallion is used mainly on the owner's own mares and rarely covers outside mares- their mares are nice enough but not spectacular in terms of breeding lines and most have never competed (certainly none have competed at affiliated level).


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## Baggybreeches (3 June 2011)

Simsar said:



			many stallions pass inspection each year, how many of them actually go on to become anything more than if they hadn't been graded and had done it through comp results and progeny? There are hundreds of graded stallions out there who get less than a handful of mares a year. So why grade?
		
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I agree with this, there is no right or wrong answer, just because a stallion is graded, doesn't make it any better for every mare. FWIW I saw a beautiful RID stallion grade a couple of years ago, I rang up the lady, she wasn't set up for breeding at the time, so I rang her back the next year, she has loaned him out and what do you know?  Mr Stallion actually has no interest whatsoever in 'performing' and AFAIK hasn't yet had any semen collected!
My mare was graded as a 5 yr old just in case I bred from her, but again it is so subjective, she got decent marks and I think there were 2 that didn't grade, but a couple of very mediocre horses with 'names' got better marks?


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## TarrSteps (3 June 2011)

Experimenting with colour in quote . . .bear with me!



millitiger said:



			Could the same 'what' be said if he was starting out in the current market? 

Only that he already has those performing offspring on the ground so people "know" to go to him.  For a stallion owner just starting out, how do you promote a stallion and get the best mares. if it's not gone for approval and has nothing on the ground.  (Except, perhaps, by its breeding, which, if the horse is anything other than TB, has come about because lots of people HAVE worried about registering with their breed/book and "approving", either by testing or by showing.  

Yes he probably would be graded now based on performance but would that make him a better stallion, more likely to produce the goods? 

Of course not.  But I do think there is a difference between horses that haven't been presented and ones that have failed.

IMO no, it would certainly make him an option to people who only use graded stallions but it wouldn't change what he produces.
The owners would get more revenue from him but it wouldn't improve the sport horse breeding genepool.
 But it MIGHT get him access to more top class mares.  Obviously in this case he got top mares near the start of his career - which makes him lucky, as well as good - but surely every one helps?




But why would it bother you as a breeder whether he produces a handful of horses or dozens?
I'm not a breeder.   Nor, having worked for many, will I EVER be one!  But I'm interested in horses as a group and maximising the number of sound, easy, good performing horses and minimising the number that aren't.  I know approval is not the only way to get that done but I also know there are lots of horses bred that aren't fit for any purpose and I'm in favour of anything that lessens that number, even for one individual. 

Certainly it matters to his owner (and his wallet ) but why it would matter to you as the individual mare owner I'm not sure?

As above, it doesn't.   And people should do what suits them.  But the approval process is not random, at least over the past 100 years or so and I do think, big picture, it has produced a higher percentage of classy horses.  I'm curious about people who don't support the system in a general way but are more than happy to reap the benefits of it, in terms of quality of horses, the ability to track bloodlines etc.


IMO it comes down to making sure your own programme is the best it can be before throwing stones- it seems totally illogical to me to use non-graded mares but be happy to dismiss any ungraded stallion when surely you should be judging each 50% of potential DNA in the same way?

On that, we totally agree.  As I said, if someone said "make me the best possible horse you can, but you only get one shot" I would get the very best PROVEN broodmare, preferably from a line of proven broodmare producers.  I've seen time and time again, single mares that produce one fantastic offspring after another, even for different jobs.  It just makes life so much easier to get one of those!  


Out of interest, why would you want the mare 'approved if possible' as opposed to 'must be approved?'

 Because I understand that life isn't perfect.  I rode a mare who was top non-Hannoverian mare in North America when she finally was inspected, but she was TB and when she came out of racing she was in no way ready to go for a mare test.  So the owner bred two foals - both of them by approved stallions - before she was tested.  BUT the owner is a successful breeder with a fantastic eye and she chose the mare in question.  If SHE said to me "breed that mare over there" I would take her word for it, approved or not.  But I doubt she'd say that about a mare that had been presented and failed.

This particular stallion is used mainly on the owner's own mares and rarely covers outside mares- their mares are nice enough but not spectacular in terms of breeding lines and most have never competed (certainly none have competed at affiliated level).

 Having a good solid broodmare band is definitely the way to go and a great help in promoting an un-approved stallion - or an approved one, for that matter.  But wasn't the question whether or not the horse would attract outside mares?  

To go full circle . . . if I remember correctly, the OPs horse did not pass his inspection because he got distracted on the day and didn't present well enough for them to accurately assess him but they encouraged her to bring him back at a later date on account of how he is bred and what they could see.  Of course, he will have to do more later, but that's just how the system goes, not because they'll pass him BECAUSE he's doing more.  So it might in fact help him to have a foal to show, as that can help a borderline mare or colt.  Not that he's borderline! Just that it might give him a few more points.  Breeders have certainly done that successfully in the past. 

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## Frances144 (3 June 2011)

My two penn'orth.

I wish they would consider temperament in the stallion licensing too.  Imho, just because they are beautiful, move superbly and have all the right bits in the right place, if they don't have a good temperament, they are no use to anyone.


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## millitiger (4 June 2011)

I am not clever enough to use colour quoting, sorry! 



TarrSteps said:



			Only that he already has those performing offspring on the ground so people "know" to go to him. For a stallion owner just starting out, how do you promote a stallion and get the best mares. if it's not gone for approval and has nothing on the ground. (Except, perhaps, by its breeding, which, if the horse is anything other than TB, has come about because lots of people HAVE worried about registering with their breed/book and "approving", either by testing or by showing.
		
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Lots of stallions have had very decent mares go to them for covering before being graded- Primitive Proposal is one off the top of my head (now graded so progeny can compete in Futurity).
Obviously it is easier if the stallion owner has their own mares (and most do) so there are usually at least a few foals on the ground to look at.
Clearly if there was an issue with people getting the mares to their stallions because they aren't graded, the issue of non-graded stallions apparently producing hundreds of horses wouldn't exist?



TarrSteps said:



			Of course not. But I do think there is a difference between horses that haven't been presented and ones that have failed.
		
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Where have I said there isn't a difference?  IMO it does depend on what they failed on though and what you plan to do with the foal.



TarrSteps said:



			But it MIGHT get him access to more top class mares. Obviously in this case he got top mares near the start of his career - which makes him lucky, as well as good - but surely every one helps?
		
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It depends what your hopes and plans are for your stallion I guess. And if your stallion is already showing he can produce the goods with the mares he is getting (in terms of easily sellable foals) why bother?



TarrSteps said:



			I'm not a breeder.  Nor, having worked for many, will I EVER be one! But I'm interested in horses as a group and maximising the number of sound, easy, good performing horses and minimising the number that aren't. I know approval is not the only way to get that done but I also know there are lots of horses bred that aren't fit for any purpose and I'm in favour of anything that lessens that number, even for one individual.
		
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Definitely- hence to me, it doesn't make sense to advocate stallion grading but not be bothered if the mare is not graded- a lot of mares aren't graded and that is a lot of individuals at risk of getting a foal not fit for purpose surely?



TarrSteps said:



			As above, it doesn't.  And people should do what suits them. But the approval process is not random, at least over the past 100 years or so and I do think, big picture, it has produced a higher percentage of classy horses. I'm curious about people who don't support the system in a general way but are more than happy to reap the benefits of it, in terms of quality of horses, the ability to track bloodlines etc.
		
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Would be great to be able to look at the percentages instead of guessing wouldn't it? Something like over the last 30 years, how many sires of Badminton horses are graded and how many were graded at the time of the mating. I'm sure it could be done if I had the time, inclination and know how and would be a great little project 
Who doesn't support the system? As said time and again, I don't have a problem with graded stallions (who would?) I have a problem with the widespread perception that a stallion MUST be graded to be of any use, but an ungraded mare is no problem at all.



TarrSteps said:



			On that, we totally agree. As I said, if someone said "make me the best possible horse you can, but you only get one shot" I would get the very best PROVEN broodmare, preferably from a line of proven broodmare producers. I've seen time and time again, single mares that produce one fantastic offspring after another, even for different jobs. It just makes life so much easier to get one of those!
		
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Absolutely agree. The best mare is a known producer and, for me, the best stallion is a known producer too. Grading wouldn't come into it for me though, as proven in terms of progeny is far more important to me. 




TarrSteps said:



			Because I understand that life isn't perfect...So the owner bred two foals - both of them by approved stallions - before she was tested. BUT the owner is a successful breeder with a fantastic eye and she chose the mare in question. If SHE said to me "breed that mare over there" I would take her word for it, approved or not. But I doubt she'd say that about a mare that had been presented and failed.
		
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Again, failed stallions (and mares) are a totally different point to the one I was making- I was simply a little perturbed by many of the people on this thread being so closed to an ungraded stallion when we know they use ungraded mares.
Out of interest, if the lady above had told you to use an ungraded stallion on a mare, would you of done it?



TarrSteps said:



			Having a good solid broodmare band is definitely the way to go and a great help in promoting an un-approved stallion - or an approved one, for that matter. But wasn't the question whether or not the horse would attract outside mares?
		
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The OPs question may have been about outside mares, but again, my point was about ungraded stallions Vs ungraded mares so I may have gone a bit off tangent there, oops!
Marketability is certainly important when looking at both stallions and mares- hence my question on here the other day about whether grading a mare would make her foal more saleable. 
I don't need her to be graded to want to breed from her (as I trust my eye enough, rightly or wrongly) but if the foal is for sale you have to tick as many boxes as possible, whether you believe it is relevant or not and as a stallion owner I would do exactly the same.


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## Spiderman (4 June 2011)

Frances144 said:



			My two penn'orth.

I wish they would consider temperament in the stallion licensing too.  Imho, just because they are beautiful, move superbly and have all the right bits in the right place, if they don't have a good temperament, they are no use to anyone.
		
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Absolutely agree with you here. 

The WBS-UK stallion grading takes place over two days with stallions being inspected in the stable lines to check temperament. Afaik they are the only studbook in the UK to do this.


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## JanetGeorge (4 June 2011)

Frances144 said:



			I wish they would consider temperament in the stallion licensing too.  Imho, just because they are beautiful, move superbly and have all the right bits in the right place, if they don't have a good temperament, they are no use to anyone.
		
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  They would have failed my 3 year old on temperament on the day if there was that option - he behaved like a lunatic - and one of the Inspectors suggested I SHOULD geld him because of his 'temperament'!  As it was, I think they allowed their views on his temperament to colour their view of his movement and jumping, so failed him on those instead!

BUT, under the new system for Irish Draughts, a stallion who fails the inspection, but passes the vet, a comprehensive set of x-rays AND endoscope is Class 2 - and a Class 2 stallion's progeny out of a Class 1 mare are eligible Class 1.

I have NO concerns about his temperament - and I have to handle him every day!  He's well-mannered covering mares - and is just being backed and going very well!  So THAT's fine!  I disagree with them on movement and jumping - so I'm using him on some of my best mares - to give him a chance to prove himself where it counts!!  If his foals aren't as good as the foals they've had previously, then he'll be a smart gelding!

But I'm not offering him at stud this year - and probably not next year either.  He has to prove himself because while I trust my own judgement, I don't expect anyone else to do so!


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## volatis (4 June 2011)

I think JG makes a very valid point. An experienced breeder trusting their own judgement on a home bred colt that they know well, plus they know the family well too, and seeing if he can produce the goods, is very different from ridiculing the approval/licensing system in its entirity.

Certainly in mainland Europe the licensing system is to help steer the stud book in a certain direction, ie breeding for the Olympic disciplines (and therefore you need evaluators who understand the attributes needed for success in sport) to maintain breed type (Trakehners ia very good example of this but also Holstein to an extent wont vary too drastically from type). The selection committee make their decisions on the young colts, the performance test and success in sport weed them out a bit more and the mare owners make the final decision on who is utilised as a stallion. For sure there are experiecned breeders who retain colts, dont present them for inspection but let them prove themselves in sport first, but its a very focused system and when it comes to sporthorse breeding it really produces the goods.

With regards to temperament that is actually an integral part of the performance test and I have know colts to not even make pre selection as they have been so difficult that the inspectors wouldn't consider them. But having said that the standard of riding here in general is higehr than in the UK and people seem much more relaxed and riding and handling big horses and especially stallions, so there is less call for very docile, super easy horses. There are people here breeding for the hacking/leisure market (well i assume they are form the adverts in magazines) but by far the biggest numbers are the sport horse breeders. And finally, I see at local livery yards horses bred within the sporthorse system being used just as family hacks and being perfect sane and sensible to do so LOL


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