# Oliver Townend - warning for overuse of the whip at blair



## Wheels (3 September 2018)

How many warnings does one rider need or get before action is taken and they get banned

He obviously learned nothing from the badminton debacle


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## ycbm (3 September 2018)

How many more times?

I do seriously begin to wonder what happens in training when there are no cameras on him. It surely can't be good.


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## Clodagh (3 September 2018)

Get well enough known and you can do what you like. ycbm - I couldn't agree more, beat it in public, so what do you do behind closed doors?


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## Amymay (3 September 2018)

Where's This being reported? On which horse?

**Found it**


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## Surbie (3 September 2018)

Plus it does feel like he has flushed all the 'please just give him another shot' vibes from Burghley down the bog.


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## {97702} (3 September 2018)

Well he has answered the selectors yet again......


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## Sandstone1 (3 September 2018)

Arrogant vile man.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (3 September 2018)

His rides at Burghley all looked hard-ridden and were visibly tiring near to the end of the course; IMO (for what its worth) he should have pulled up (OR made to retire).

As others have said, if this is what's going on in public, then god help his poor horses in private. Bet he's a right sod to work for as well, that type usually are.

I remember the old saying which was passed down to us Pony Club kids (kids a long while ago now, but all of my generation will remember it being handed down from the Sages of old), "The Best Whip is in the Cornbin"........ never was a truer word spoken and Mr Townend would do well to remember it.


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## Amymay (3 September 2018)

Pull up which horse?  The grey certainly finished well.


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## Goldenstar (3 September 2018)

That&#8217;s not good , he&#8217;s so talented but he need to get a grip on this .


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## Tiddlypom (3 September 2018)

He rode well at Burghley, and didn't hassle his horses. 

While at first glance the Blair incident sounds bad, Oli says that the horse has been occasionally been running out and it did so in the XC warm up, hence his use of the whip. Was it over zealous policing by nervous stewards, maybe?

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/oliver-townend-given-another-warning-whip-use-663442


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## TheOldTrout (3 September 2018)

Was any action taken against Caroline Powell for jumping into the crowd at Burgley? The article Tiddlypom linked to mentions someone at Blair being yellowcarded for doing something that sounds similar.


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## Clodagh (3 September 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			He rode well at Burghley, and didn't hassle his horses.
		
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He did ride well but he still hassles his horses more than the smoother looking pros.


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## attheponies (3 September 2018)

Leopards and spots comes to mind....


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## Wheels (3 September 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			He rode well at Burghley, and didn't hassle his horses. 

While at first glance the Blair incident sounds bad, Oli says that the horse has been occasionally been running out and it did so in the XC warm up, hence his use of the whip. Was it over zealous policing by nervous stewards, maybe?

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/oliver-townend-given-another-warning-whip-use-663442

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Erm Oliver Townend has plenty of form for being over zealous with his whip and subsequently playing it down so I doubt it was the steward that was the issue


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## Crazy_cat_lady (3 September 2018)

And I thought he produced much nicer rounds at burghley unfortunately I guess it hasn't changed.


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## lannerch (3 September 2018)

Wheels said:



			Erm Oliver Townend has plenty of form for being over zealous with his whip and subsequently playing it down so I doubt it was the steward that was the issue
		
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I agree with Tiddylepom totally, everyone is far to sensitive to oli picking up his whip, if a young horse is getting in the habit of running out it does need correcting, before it becomes a habit. I watched the live streaming at Blair and from what I saw oli rode very well .

His horses went beautifully at burghley and finished a lot better than most , if he was bashing them at home as many are claiming there is no way he would get the performance out of them he does, they try their hearts out for him, not the behaviour of a terrorised horse! 

And I also question the timing of this story, why now straight after Burghley where from what I saw he gave all 3 horses textbook rides and rewarded them throughout. King joules looked the most tired, but when he passed me at the beginning of the course he was fighting oli to go faster all the way waiting energy, and indeed it was him that oli elected not to ride in the showjumping even though he was in a money winning position , as the health of the horse came first. Hardly the action of a horse abuser only in it for the glory and money!


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## ycbm (3 September 2018)

lannerch said:



			King joules looked the most tired, but when he passed me at the beginning of the course he was fighting oli to go faster all the way waiting energy, and indeed it was him that oli elected not to ride in the showjumping even though he was in a money winning position , as the health of the horse came first. Hardly the action of a horse abuser only in it for the glory and money!
		
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Eh?  I read that news as that the horse had knocked himself (as reported) and would not pass the trot up for the show jumping so he wasn't presented.

I don't see Oli as the kind of man who would give up a prize winning place if he had a sound horse to put to the panel.


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## Wheels (3 September 2018)

lannerch said:



			I agree with Tiddylepom totally, everyone is far to sensitive to oli picking up his whip, if a young horse is getting in the habit of running out it does need correcting, before it becomes a habit. I watched the live streaming at Blair and from what I saw oli rode very well
		
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The story is not about Oliver using his whip it is about Oliver over using his whip.


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## Tihamandturkey (3 September 2018)

Like attheponies said so succinctly - leopards & spots unfortunately


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## {97702} (3 September 2018)

lannerch said:



			I agree with Tiddylepom totally, everyone is far to sensitive to oli picking up his whip, if a young horse is getting in the habit of running out it does need correcting, before it becomes a habit. I watched the live streaming at Blair and from what I saw oli rode very well .

His horses went beautifully at burghley and finished a lot better than most , if he was bashing them at home as many are claiming there is no way he would get the performance out of them he does, they try their hearts out for him, not the behaviour of a terrorised horse! 

And I also question the timing of this story, why now straight after Burghley where from what I saw he gave all 3 horses textbook rides and rewarded them throughout. King joules looked the most tired, but when he passed me at the beginning of the course he was fighting oli to go faster all the way waiting energy, and indeed it was him that oli elected not to ride in the showjumping even though he was in a money winning position , as the health of the horse came first. Hardly the action of a horse abuser only in it for the glory and money!
		
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H&H eventing have explained that they were waiting for comments from OT etc before they published the story - I can imagine the furore if they hadn't given him any right to reply


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## lannerch (3 September 2018)

Wheels said:



			The story is not about Oliver using his whip it is about Oliver over using his whip.
		
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Yes but oli only has to pick up his whip for it to be overuse , after what happened at badders and the trial by social media afterwards everyone is far to sensitive. What he did at badminton was wrong but this episode does not sound the same thing at all.


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## lannerch (3 September 2018)

Lévrier;13835964 said:
			
		


			H&H eventing have explained that they were waiting for comments from OT etc before they published the story - I can imagine the furore if they hadn't given him any right to reply
		
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If you really believe he has only just replied then all fool you. Shame on you horse and hound for your timing! Did he refuse you an interview?


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## lannerch (3 September 2018)

ycbm said:



			Eh?  I read that news as that the horse had knocked himself (as reported) and would not pass the trot up for the show jumping so he wasn't presented.

I don't see Oli as the kind of man who would give up a prize winning place if he had a sound horse to put to the panel.
		
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And you know that for sure? I heard the Horse certainly would have passed!


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## {97702} (3 September 2018)

lannerch said:



			If you really believe he has only just replied then all fool you. Shame on you horse and hound for your timing! Did he refuse you an interview?
		
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Erm no need to be bloody rude to me - I was simply reporting what H&H eventing had said!


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## {97702} (3 September 2018)

ycbm said:



			Eh?  I read that news as that the horse had knocked himself (as reported) and would not pass the trot up for the show jumping so he wasn't presented.

I don't see Oli as the kind of man who would give up a prize winning place if he had a sound horse to put to the panel.
		
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The quote I read said:

Oliver Townend has just two chances to defend his Land Rover Burghley title today, as one of his three rides at this year&#8217;s event, MHS King Joules, was withdrawn after suffering &#8220;a slight knock&#8221; on the cross-country.

Tom Joule&#8217;s 12-year-old Ghareeb gelding, first to go of the Burghley field, was third after dressage with a score of 27.2, but slipped to 10th after cross-country with 10.4 time-faults.

&#8220;I&#8217;m disappointed, both for the horse, who deserves a Burghley completion after the way he took on yesterday&#8217;s cross-country course, and also for his owner, Tom Joule, who has been so supportive,&#8221; Oliver said.


Read more at https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...l-horse-inspection-663546#m2ZdiB9xGayuOWEp.99


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## lannerch (3 September 2018)

Oliver has withdrawn MHS King Joules ahead of the final show jumping phase today. He was found to have given himself a  slight knock yesterday and Oliver doesnt want to jump him if he isnt 100%. Im disappointed, both for the horse, who deserves a Burghley completion after the way he took on yesterdays cross country course, and also for his owner, Tom Joule, who has been so supportive. Oliver said.


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## Dopeydapple (3 September 2018)

I'm afraid I'm in the leopard and spots camp when it comes to him, a very good friend works at an equine hospital who were treating one of his horses many many years ago and they told him that the rehab needed meant that the next comp he had been aiming this horse at was going to be too soon and if he rode in that event the horse would break down and never compete at that level again, Oli competed the horse anyway and it was the last event the horse did (well at that level anyway, it may well have gone on to a much quieter home)  there have been so many stories about him in the years since and he gets several warnings but nothing ever changes. I think he's a vile bully and a poor representative for the sport, you definitely can't imagine him ever bringing on an 8 year old and still having it competing at the top level 10 years later like some of the other top riders do, horses are clearly just a commodity to him.


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## Tihamandturkey (3 September 2018)

Dopeydapple said:



			I'm afraid I'm in the leopard and spots camp when it comes to him, a very good friend works at an equine hospital who were treating one of his horses many many years ago and they told him that the rehab needed meant that the next comp he had been aiming this horse at was going to be too soon and if he rode in that event the horse would break down and never compete at that level again, Oli competed the horse anyway and it was the last event the horse did (well at that level anyway, it may well have gone on to a much quieter home)  there have been so many stories about him in the years since and he gets several warnings but nothing ever changes. I think he's a vile bully and a poor representative for the sport, you definitely can't imagine him ever bringing on an 8 year old and still having it competing at the top level 10 years later like some of the other top riders do, horses are clearly just a commodity to him.
		
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That's awful & sad Dopeydapple & just one example of the many nasty things that I've read about him from people with first hand experience.


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## ycbm (3 September 2018)

lannerch said:



			And you know that for sure? I heard the Horse certainly would have passed!
		
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Then why wasn't he presented in case one of the other two, or both the other two, failed?

Do you know for certain he would have passed or did you get it from a friend of a friend?

And if he would have passed, then why on earth would he not present him and jump one round of show jumps and probably take home some prize money?  The story of retiring a sound horse makes no sense.


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## Dulcie (3 September 2018)

lannerch said:



			I agree with Tiddylepom totally, everyone is far to sensitive to oli picking up his whip, if a young horse is getting in the habit of running out it does need correcting, before it becomes a habit. I watched the live streaming at Blair and from what I saw oli rode very well .

His horses went beautifully at burghley and finished a lot better than most , if he was bashing them at home as many are claiming there is no way he would get the performance out of them he does, they try their hearts out for him, not the behaviour of a terrorised horse! 

And I also question the timing of this story, why now straight after Burghley where from what I saw he gave all 3 horses textbook rides and rewarded them throughout. King joules looked the most tired, but when he passed me at the beginning of the course he was fighting oli to go faster all the way waiting energy, and indeed it was him that oli elected not to ride in the showjumping even though he was in a money winning position , as the health of the horse came first. Hardly the action of a horse abuser only in it for the glory and money!
		
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My thoughts exactly!


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## ycbm (3 September 2018)

lannerch said:



			Oliver has withdrawn MHS King Joules ahead of the final show jumping phase today. He was found to have given himself a  slight knock yesterday and Oliver doesnt want to jump him if he isnt 100%. Im disappointed, both for the horse, who deserves a Burghley completion after the way he took on yesterdays cross country course, and also for his owner, Tom Joule, who has been so supportive. Oliver said.
		
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Exactly. The horse was not 100% sound. It was not retired out of the goodness of his heart.


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## DirectorFury (3 September 2018)

At this point the authorities (BE and FEI) need a more joined up warning system. X amount of rider warnings in a certain time period (or at all for some types of warning) should translate to an auto yellow card which comes with sanctions. Further warnings go to a red card with stricter sanctions. 
The current system is obviously not doing anything to discourage people from this behaviour, though they should not need warnings to realise it is not acceptable, so it needs to be changed ASAP. 

Im v disappointed to see this about OT. I dont know if further action will be taken but, after this many warnings, I think it is warranted.


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## ycbm (3 September 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			He rode well at Burghley, and didn't hassle his horses. 

While at first glance the Blair incident sounds bad, Oli says that the horse has been occasionally been running out and it did so in the XC warm up, hence his use of the whip. Was it over zealous policing by nervous stewards, maybe?

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/oliver-townend-given-another-warning-whip-use-663442

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Is beating a horse around a three star event the new way of re schooling a horse who has soured or is hurting somewhere and is running out? If it was running out in the warm up, at that level, should he not have withdrawn and sorted out what is wrong with it at home?


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## cundlegreen (3 September 2018)

I saw his 2nd and 3rd rides, and was unimpressed with his riding of the Cooley horse. Over riding into certain fences and a fair bit of pulling the teeth out on landing. The contrast between him and Harry Meade and Tim Price is painful. The latter two, as well as many others, showed just how a big course should be ridden. Perfectly balanced, and quiet throughout, and the same went for the SJ. Everybody seems fixated on his use of the whip, but what I saw yet again at Burghley, was his awful use of spurs, with his feet turned out at right angles, and the spurs stuck in the minute the horse started to tire. You could say he had to do this to keep them going, but they should be given time to respond, and if they can't due to tiredness, then they shouldn't keep being spurred. I saw the grey had a belly band on to stop spur marks.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (3 September 2018)

Interesting observation I didn't really look at his feet, I think both his second and third horse had the band on I haven't seen one on a horse doing xc before thought they were more an sj thing. Not sure if king Jules had one on?

I would be worried about possibly accidentally marking a horse with spurs over some of those huge drops or if I got an awkward jump but then I am not a professional rider and will be going nowhere near those jumps with or without spurs! Also everyone else didn't have one on and I saw all the red button coverage. 


Dopeydapple would interested to hear what you've heard from people, pm if you're ok with doing so.


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## waggit (3 September 2018)

ycbm said:



			Is beating a horse around a three star event the new way of re schooling a horse who has soured or is hurting somewhere and is running out? If it was running out in the warm up, at that level, should he not have withdrawn and sorted out what is wrong with it at home?
		
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Totally with you on this. Horses I found start running out due to a reason be it over facing, pain, incorrect stride and whipping it into submission is not the way to go. Watching him at Badminton turning in the saddle to deliver several strikes of the whip was stomach turning. On an opposite side of the coin watching Silvia go round Burghley in her own time looking like she was really enjoying herself with Warren giving her all the time and support she needed was great.


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## Fragglerock (3 September 2018)

Deleted


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## shortstuff99 (4 September 2018)

It is weird that the article and comments on here focus so heavily on Oil T when two other riders also got yellow carded for quite serious issues and they have not been named and no one here seems to care....interesting. And I'm always interested why he gets slated so much and yet certain riders are hailed as gods who do some absolutely horrendous riding (EG any one?!)


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## Wheels (4 September 2018)

shortstuff99 said:



			It is weird that the article and comments on here focus so heavily on Oil T when two other riders also got yellow carded for quite serious issues and they have not been named and no one here seems to care....interesting. And I'm always interested why he gets slated so much and yet certain riders are hailed as gods who do some absolutely horrendous riding (EG any one?!)
		
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I started this thread because I wanted to know how many warnings a rider needs before action is taken. Oli T has had several whip warnings fairly recently so that's why I singled him out but I don't condone any sort of overuse of whip or spurs or any kind of cruel riding.

The FEI and our affiliated organisations all need to step up to prevent this but the riders need to ultimately take responsibility for their actions, especially the ultra high profile riders.


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## Tiddlypom (4 September 2018)

If Oli did indeed 'beat his horse around a 3 star event' then that would be completely wrong and the stewards at Blair should have handed out a greater penalty than a verbal warning. If he administered a few corrective slaps to keep the horse straight and prevent further running out, then that is usually considered acceptable.

None of us on here saw what happened at Blair, know who saw it IRL and who reported it to the stewards. I'm just a bit wary that they are coming down hard on Oli and letting others get away with greater infractions. I do not condone poor horsemanship at all, and have reported riders for poor riding/overuse of the whip to control in the past.  Wheels, I fully agree that there needs to be more joined up thinking on this.

I thought that the lovely little grey mare Silvia should have been pulled up at Burghley, she was knackered.


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## windand rain (4 September 2018)

I know two wrongs dont make a right but just because it is OT doesn't mean he should be subjected to the witch hunt that has been going on for such a long time. Social media is a nightmare for picking on a bone and chewing it to death. My guess he is probably bluntly honest and folk dont like it. Try standing at some unaffiliated showjumping venues and at some county show ringsides and you will see far more abuse of horses than at any 3 or 4 star events. Then  look in a lot of fields and see the grossly obese and painfully thin all victims of abuse. Lead rein ponies that waddle round tied in and there are multitudes of in hand pony youngsters that nevr see a saddle as they are dead or crippled by the time they are old enough to ride. So give the guy a break his horses look well, are happy to compete for him with an enthusiasm most would envy and they are fluid and nippy over the fences which sort of implies they are not mistreated at home as they would be scared and over jump. As I think Ian Stark said at Burghley youcannot make a horse perform at that level it has to want to. I have met a very worried and caring OT many years ago at a a vet hospital his horse had surgery the same day as mine So would be about 15 years ago we were both there for follow ups for many months there after. He is not a person to hide his light under a bushel but certainly does not deserve the vitriol dished out on social media


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## OrangeAndLemon (4 September 2018)

windand rain said:



			I know two wrongs dont make a right but just because it is OT doesn't mean he should be subjected to the witch hunt that has been going on for such a long time. Social media is a nightmare for picking on a bone and chewing it to death. My guess he is probably bluntly honest and folk dont like it. Try standing at some unaffiliated showjumping venues and at some county show ringsides and you will see far more abuse of horses than at any 3 or 4 star events. Then  look in a lot of fields and see the grossly obese and painfully thin all victims of abuse. Lead rein ponies that waddle round tied in and there are multitudes of in hand pony youngsters that nevr see a saddle as they are dead or crippled by the time they are old enough to ride. So give the guy a break his horses look well, are happy to compete for him with an enthusiasm most would envy and they are fluid and nippy over the fences which sort of implies they are not mistreated at home as they would be scared and over jump. As I think Ian Stark said at Burghley youcannot make a horse perform at that level it has to want to. I have met a very worried and caring OT many years ago at a a vet hospital his horse had surgery the same day as mine So would be about 15 years ago we were both there for follow ups for many months there after. He is not a person to hide his light under a bushel but certainly does not deserve the vitriol dished out on social media
		
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Well said. 
I didn't see anything wrong with his riding at Blair. I did see him running the cross country course because he had so many horses there he hadn't had time to walk the CIC*** so he jogged the whole course before Tregilder went around.


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## Fanatical (4 September 2018)

I am not an OT fan - far from it but I do feel very sorry for him and feel like screaming someone give the poor man a break.

He is talented - he a is a horseman. You wouldn't achieve the results he has without being a horseman.

Oli wears his heart on his sleeve - what you see is what you get, and quite frankly, I would much rather that than other 'names' who put on a happy, smiley front in public but are a very different character behind closed doors.

Of all those whinging about him, I wonder just how many ride at a decent level - and ride high powered competition horses, producing them from youngsters. They don't learn by cuddles and kisses. I am not saying that horses need abuse from the whip, absolutely not, but they sometimes need encouraging, and they need to know right from wrong - and you need to be black and white. 

To me his horses always look to enjoy their job - no matter how much you 'beat' them, you can't make half a tonne of horse do anything!

I am annoyed with H&H for publishing the recent article from Blair, the day after Burghley when OT had given such a good display of riding and horsemanship through the whole competition - once again producing phenomenal results - all on young horses for the level. They also published it, without half the facts, glossing over the other riders who were also pulled up whilst putting the focus back on OT - wrong in my opinion.


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## OrangeAndLemon (4 September 2018)

I remember reading somewhere that a good dressage test is one where you feel relaxed and confident watching the combination. 

When I watch OT go cross country I don't sit on the edge of my seat worried the next fence will bring a fall. His horses generally finish courses or are pulled up because they aren't capable of continuing. He makes sure they have every chance of getting themselves safely around a course. There are other riders who make me feel terrified for their horses at every jump but they aren't winning so the media isn't interested in publishing stories about any warnings they receive. 

Media outlets get funding by selling advertising space. They expect us to understand and appreciate context in their reporting. They assume an intelligent audience so please don't forget to think and question when reading, don't take what's on the screen as the only truth.


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## SpringArising (4 September 2018)

Fanatical said:



			He is talented - he a is a horseman. You wouldn't achieve the results he has without being a horseman.
		
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I don't think he is a horseman per se, a bloody good rider yes, but horseman? No.


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## Fanatical (4 September 2018)

SpringArising said:



			I don't think he is a horseman per se, a bloody good rider yes, but horseman? No.
		
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Everyone starts out for the love of the horse. Sadly money becomes a major motivator and people who ride horses professionally have to make a living - that's when things can start going a little awry. I very much think he is a horseman - he can get a tune out of almost anything and often has horses passed onto him that others haven't had success with.
He is very similar to his good friend Andrew Nicholson.


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## AFB (4 September 2018)

Poor journalism from H&H IMO.

Did somebody not like OT proving his point to the selectors?


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## Sandstone1 (4 September 2018)

Maybe he simply wasnt selected as hes whip happy and the selectors just didnt want to be seen to condone the way he rides or want the bad publicity.
However good a rider he is how many times can he be warned about over use of the whip and not learn from it?
His competitive nature seems to overcome his common sense.
If he needs to thrash a horse to get round there is  something wrong.
Yes there is worse abuse in the horse world but seeing a high profile rider behave like that time and time again is no example for young riders.
Its also very worrying to think about what he does when there are no cameras around.


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## Tihamandturkey (4 September 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			Maybe he simply wasnt selected as hes whip happy and the selectors just didnt want to be seen to condone the way he rides or want the bad publicity.
However good a rider he is how many times can he be warned about over use of the whip and not learn from it?
His competitive nature seems to overcome his common sense.
If he needs to thrash a horse to get round there is  something wrong.
Yes there is worse abuse in the horse world but seeing a high profile rider behave like that time and time again is no example for young riders.
Its also very worrying to think about what he does when there are no cameras around.
		
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This


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## OrangeAndLemon (4 September 2018)

Tihama said:



			This
		
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no, not this, not without evidence...unless you can prove he beats his horses then it isn't right to publish to the world to suggest he does. 

Quote from the Guardian's advice on Social Media:
Libel: According to research for law firm Wiggin, 46% of 18- to 24-year-olds were unaware that they could be sued for tweeting an unsubstantiated rumour about another person. 
But if a false statement causes &#8220;serious harm&#8221; to a person&#8217;s reputation, it may be libellous under the Defamation Act 2013. Famous examples include the many Twitter users who incorrectly insinuated that Lord McAlpine was a paedophile. Typically, this can result in the publisher of the statement being forced to pay damages.


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## Tihamandturkey (4 September 2018)

OrangeAndLemon said:



			no, not this, not without evidence...unless you can prove he beats his horses then it isn't right to publish to the world to suggest he does. 

Quote from the Guardian's advice on Social Media:
Libel: According to research for law firm Wiggin, 46% of 18- to 24-year-olds were unaware that they could be sued for tweeting an unsubstantiated rumour about another person. 
But if a false statement causes serious harm to a persons reputation, it may be libellous under the Defamation Act 2013. Famous examples include the many Twitter users who incorrectly insinuated that Lord McAlpine was a paedophile. Typically, this can result in the publisher of the statement being forced to pay damages.
		
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I wasn't "publishing" anything - merely agreeing with a previous poster's opinion who in turn wasn't "publishing" anything either


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## splashgirl45 (4 September 2018)

Fanatical said:



			I am not an OT fan - far from it but I do feel very sorry for him and feel like screaming someone give the poor man a break.

He is talented - he a is a horseman. You wouldn't achieve the results he has without being a horseman.

Oli wears his heart on his sleeve - what you see is what you get, and quite frankly, I would much rather that than other 'names' who put on a happy, smiley front in public but are a very different character behind closed doors.

Of all those whinging about him, I wonder just how many ride at a decent level - and ride high powered competition horses, producing them from youngsters. They don't learn by cuddles and kisses. I am not saying that horses need abuse from the whip, absolutely not, but they sometimes need encouraging, and they need to know right from wrong - and you need to be black and white. 

To me his horses always look to enjoy their job - no matter how much you 'beat' them, you can't make half a tonne of horse do anything!

I am annoyed with H&H for publishing the recent article from Blair, the day after Burghley when OT had given such a good display of riding and horsemanship through the whole competition - once again producing phenomenal results - all on young horses for the level. They also published it, without half the facts, glossing over the other riders who were also pulled up whilst putting the focus back on OT - wrong in my opinion.
		
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i had  recently been rooting for oli as i thought he had improved his riding and seemed to be more sensitive to the horses.  i was extremely disappointed to see the rides he gave both of his horses at badminton and felt the stewards should have made him pull up the grey horse...i  have worked for a high profile rider and ridden their horses  and their methods got results without overuse of whip or spurs. you dont have to compete at a high level to understand what is right and wrong.... i am aware that things need to be black and white for horses but you also need to be fair to them as well....he didnt use the whip at burghley and made a great show of patting the horses, BUT he was using his spurs very forcefully virtually all the way round. compare the way he rode to the other professionals , it was much more forceful....


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## OrangeAndLemon (4 September 2018)

Tihama said:



			I wasn't "publishing" anything - merely agreeing with a previous poster's opinion who in turn wasn't "publishing" anything either
		
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You have published because you've put it on social media (a forum).


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## Sandstone1 (4 September 2018)

OrangeAndLemon said:



			no, not this, not without evidence...unless you can prove he beats his horses then it isn't right to publish to the world to suggest he does. 

Quote from the Guardian's advice on Social Media:
Libel: According to research for law firm Wiggin, 46% of 18- to 24-year-olds were unaware that they could be sued for tweeting an unsubstantiated rumour about another person. 
But if a false statement causes &#8220;serious harm&#8221; to a person&#8217;s reputation, it may be libellous under the Defamation Act 2013. Famous examples include the many Twitter users who incorrectly insinuated that Lord McAlpine was a paedophile. Typically, this can result in the publisher of the statement being forced to pay damages.
		
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How is it a false statement when hes been seem to do it by thousands of people and been officially warned about it on several occasions????


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## fetlock (4 September 2018)

OrangeAndLemon said:



			no, not this, not without evidence...unless you can prove he beats his horses then it isn't right to publish to the world to suggest he does. 

Quote from the Guardian's advice on Social Media:
Libel: According to research for law firm Wiggin, 46% of 18- to 24-year-olds were unaware that they could be sued for tweeting an unsubstantiated rumour about another person. 
But if a false statement causes serious harm to a persons reputation, it may be libellous under the Defamation Act 2013. Famous examples include the many Twitter users who incorrectly insinuated that Lord McAlpine was a paedophile. Typically, this can result in the publisher of the statement being forced to pay damages.
		
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Badminton footage showed to the world (in so far as all those who viewed it) that he thrashed two horses around the course. That is proof.
Furthermore, he received an official warning for that. This is also proof that hiis actions were unacceptable.
Further proof that he has continued to use his whip excessively was provided recently, when he received another official warning with regards to this at Blair. 

Definition of beat
strike (a person or an animal) repeatedly and violently so as to hurt or injure them, typically with an implement such as a club or whip.

Was he seen to be beating his horses at Badminton in line with that definition? Yes.


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## Tihamandturkey (4 September 2018)

Deleted


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## Sandstone1 (4 September 2018)

OrangeAndLemon said:



			You have published because you've put it on social media (a forum).
		
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That only works if its not true.  Has he been seen to beat his horses?   Yes by thousands of people at badminton both on tv and live.
Has been officially warned about overuse of the whip?  Yes several times.
Whats not true there?


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## Tihamandturkey (4 September 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			That only works if its not true.  Has he been seen to beat his horses?   Yes by thousands of people at badminton both on tv and live.
Has been officially warned about overuse of the whip?  Yes several times.
Whats not true there?
		
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Exactly - thanks Fetlock & Sandstone 1 - I was just typing something similar


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## shortstuff99 (4 September 2018)

But he wasn't carded for 'beating ' or 'thrashing' his horses at badminton which would have been a much higher penalty he was warned for over use of the whip which can be using 4 smacks instead of 3. Hardly hard-core abuse that people seem to be making it out it is. His horses aren't bleeding or terrified looking are they? There is some terrible riding at 4 star level and in the other sports that I think needs more focus then OT.


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## Honey08 (4 September 2018)

I don't understand why everyone is furious with H&H for reporting something that happened.  As for the timing - I think they were discreet,  if they'd released it before Burghley there would have been a riot beforehand and it would have been extra stress on Oli before and during a high pressure competition.  Big names will always get things that happen to them reported, people are interested - it was the same when Mary King got banned at Bramham (that was King Joules too, wasn't it!).

It's easy to say top riders are tough (in a firm sense) on their horses, it's true to an extent.  (I watched the dressage Guinea pig nearly sock the back teeth of their horse out in the warm up arena because it wasn't quick enough in its response, with the trainers not batting an eyelid) but to get repeatedly reported for the same thing is not good riding.  There needs to be more consequences  for repeat offenders.  Oli is already a very firm rider who almost drives a horse.  For some horses I think this is good, for example King Joules and Samuel Thomas (? Bay he rode previously at Burghley a couple of times) - both of these have walked all over their previous riders on occasions and needed someone to pull them up, however sometimes Oli does seem to over push some of his more honest horses in order to get results.  I think he rode King Joules really well at Burghley, the other two he rode acceptably well, but was still pushing hard.  I wouldn't call it the perfect example of getting a horse round a 4* - I'd look to Harry Meade or Tina Cook for that, who cruised home rather than chased. But it wasn't a bad round by a long way.  

And no I haven't ridden at 4* but I've worked for one years ago and spent enough years watching big events to have a little ability to differentiate between a nice to watch round and a not so nice to watch round!


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## ester (4 September 2018)

The main issue I think is that OT only got a warning, two other riders received yellow cards but these were not named, and barely included in the article as they were waiting for them to respond as per right of reply. 
as it wasn't exactly breaking news they could have perhaps held onto it until they did (or not) reply rather than publish such an OT heavy article.


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## Mule (4 September 2018)

You can't have a sport where a competitor repeatedly ignores the rules without sanction. Whether someone thinks Oli can do no wrong or don't like how he rides surely it's obvious that when sporting rules are ignored they become meaningless.

I think the 'poor Oli' sentiments are bizarre. He's extremely fortunate and is well able to represent his own interests without fans getting outraged on his behalf. Feeling the need to defend sports people, or anyone else well known is futile. If you put people on a pedestal they will fall.


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## DiNozzo (4 September 2018)

With regards to the other two unnamed riders the right to reply is and odd excuse too from H&H...

I'm fairly sure that 'right to reply' only means that parties are given the option to respond to claims against them, meaning they have to be informed that there is a claim, and when it is going to be published. Any response to that notice must be published. 

It does not mean that they _have_ to wait for a reply. I think. Its been a long time since I've done any media law.

At best its rubbish journalism from Horse and Hound, at worst, its a witch hunt.


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## bubsqueaks (4 September 2018)

And this is never mentioned - every cross country fence I saw Oliver jump - both live & on TV & there were quite a few with 3 horses - he patted & praised the horse once over the fence - something never mentioned.


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## ester (4 September 2018)

DiNozzo said:



			With regards to the other two unnamed riders the right to reply is and odd excuse too from H&H...

I'm fairly sure that 'right to reply' only means that parties are given the option to respond to claims against them, meaning they have to be informed that there is a claim, and when it is going to be published. Any response to that notice must be published. 

It does not mean that they _have_ to wait for a reply. I think. Its been a long time since I've done any media law.

At best its rubbish journalism from Horse and Hound, at worst, its a witch hunt.
		
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the way they put it on facebook was that they were doing the same courtesy as they had done to OT, which essentially suggested if he hadn't replied they wouldn't have published about him either!

mule- they are following the rules with regards to sanctions though, if they want to change that they ought to change the rules they use to do so.


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## Amymay (4 September 2018)

bubsqueaks said:



			And this is never mentioned - every cross country fence I saw Oliver jump - both live & on TV & there were quite a few with 3 horses - he patted & praised the horse once over the fence - something never mentioned.
		
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It's been mentioned in this post and another.


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## Sandstone1 (4 September 2018)

bubsqueaks said:



			And this is never mentioned - every cross country fence I saw Oliver jump - both live & on TV & there were quite a few with 3 horses - he patted & praised the horse once over the fence - something never mentioned.
		
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Im sure the horses feel better for that, after having several cracks with the whip or being jabbed with spurs I bet they really appreciate a nice pat.


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## bubsqueaks (4 September 2018)

So sorry I was just expressing my opinion having watched him ride at Burghley  - shot down in flames there - thanks !!!


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## Sandstone1 (4 September 2018)

bubsqueaks said:



			So sorry I was just expressing my opinion having watched him ride at Burghley  - shot down in flames there - thanks !!!
		
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Not at all.  Thats your opinion and you are fully entitled to it.   Im just expressing my opinion that a quick pat doesn't undo the smacks with the whip.


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## HBII (4 September 2018)

Re the patting - only done to make a point IMO


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## Rowreach (4 September 2018)

Good grief.

Given that the entire eventing world was aware of what happened at Blair, and yet the support OT got from fellow riders, commentators, course designer et al at Burghley was overwhelming and very public, I would suggest that H&H is having a vigorous stir with a great big wooden spoon.


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## Fred66 (4 September 2018)

Rowreach said:



			Good grief.

Given that the entire eventing world was aware of what happened at Blair, and yet the support OT got from fellow riders, commentators, course designer et al at Burghley was overwhelming and very public, I would suggest that H&H is having a vigorous stir with a great big wooden spoon.
		
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Agree

Also reading the article it appears that the circumstances are totally different.


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## ester (4 September 2018)

That was my impression too.


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## fetlock (4 September 2018)

ester said:



			The main issue I think is that OT only got a warning, two other riders received yellow cards but these were not named, and barely included in the article as they were waiting for them to respond as per right of reply. 
as it wasn't exactly breaking news they could have perhaps held onto it until they did (or not) reply rather than publish such an OT heavy article.
		
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When i read the article (which was not long before this post was created) the other riders were named.

H&H wasn't the only outlet to publish.  Eventing Nation also did, and with more detail. 
http://eventingnation.com/fei-sanctions-at-blair-castle-include-whip-abuse-warning-for-townend/


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## ester (4 September 2018)

Ah that's progress then, they weren't when they shared it on facebook yesterday- just had as a postcript that two others were sanctioned with yellow cards and when I (and others) asked why (given that it is in the public domain on the FEI sanctions list published 30/08/18) that was the reasoning they gave.


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## Clodagh (4 September 2018)

HBII said:



			Re the patting - only done to make a point IMO
		
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I thought that too, if one can detect sarcasm in a pat!


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## teapot (4 September 2018)

ester said:



			Ah that's progress then, they weren't when they shared it on facebook yesterday- just had as a postcript that two others were sanctioned with yellow cards and when I (and others) asked why (given that it is in the public domain on the FEI sanctions list published 30/08/18) that was the reasoning they gave.
		
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Tbf naming and shaming a lesser known rider for a yellow card for jumping the rope isn't clickbait material. OT creates headlines.

Will be interesting to see the list post Burghley.


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## ihatework (4 September 2018)

teapot said:



			Tbf naming and shaming a lesser known rider for a yellow card for jumping the rope isn't clickbait material. OT creates headlines.

Will be interesting to see the list post Burghley.
		
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Yes, it will be very interesting to see if Oli is on the list for Burghley. And anyone else for that matter too.


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## ester (4 September 2018)

teapot said:



			Tbf naming and shaming a lesser known rider for a yellow card for jumping the rope isn't clickbait material. OT creates headlines.

Will be interesting to see the list post Burghley.
		
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Quite, I don't think reporting on the FEI list is something they do routinely/generally?


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## Sophire (4 September 2018)

fetlock said:



			When i read the article (which was not long before this post was created) the other riders were named.

H&H wasn't the only outlet to publish.  Eventing Nation also did, and with more detail. 
http://eventingnation.com/fei-sanctions-at-blair-castle-include-whip-abuse-warning-for-townend/

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The riders weren't named when I read the article yesterday, about 45mins after being published online. I too thought it out of order. Very much clickbait to name Oli for a warning, but not James and Louise for yellow cards, I didn't appreciate their comment on waiting for a response, why not wait for a response from all 3 rather than just Oli before publishing? 
I have more respect for EN for publishing all of the information, including which horse the warning was for, and the other 2 riders.


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## ester (4 September 2018)

ihatework said:



			Yes, it will be very interesting to see if Oli is on the list for Burghley. And anyone else for that matter too.
		
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Will Caroline going over the rope automatically count for one do you think?


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## ihatework (4 September 2018)

ester said:



			Will Caroline going over the rope automatically count for one do you think?
		
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I hope not, but if applying the rules consistently she might.


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## Honey08 (4 September 2018)

bubsqueaks said:



			So sorry I was just expressing my opinion having watched him ride at Burghley  - shot down in flames there - thanks !!!
		
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I don't think you were shot down in flames, just people disagreed.  It had been mentioned a lot on the Burghley thread.

He did pat his horses, it's true.  He was also perhaps the only rider to growl at his horse to hurry home over the last few fences, despite having plenty of time (on the grey).  I actually thought at the time that I bet he'd love to give it a slap if it wasn't for the Badminton issue. 

I'd be surprised if he was on any list from Burghley, he pushed, but not beyond reasonable.


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## Sophire (4 September 2018)

ihatework said:



			Yes, it will be very interesting to see if Oli is on the list for Burghley. And anyone else for that matter too.
		
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Why would Oli be on the list for Burghley?


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## Tiddlypom (4 September 2018)

ester said:



			Will Caroline going over the rope automatically count for one do you think?
		
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She should be sanctioned, the picnickers had to scatter to avoid injury. Just because she's a popular rider doesn't mean she should escape a sanction, it comes under section 525.1 Dangerous Riding, one or more of these clauses (h) Endangering the public in any way eg jumping out of the roped track or (f) severe lack of responsiveness from the horse or the athlete or (a) Riding out of control (Horse clearly not responding to the rider's restraining or driving aids.)

Why would Oli be on the list for Burghley?


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## ester (4 September 2018)

It was a genuine question having seen what the yellow cards were for Blair. (ie dangerous riding/jumping the rope) as to whether it would be automatic as a result.


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## DirectorFury (4 September 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			(a) Riding out of control (Horse clearly not responding to the rider's restraining or driving aids.)
		
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Dumb question and totally not relevant to the thread but I'm confused by the 'not responding to driving aids' bit. 
Would that come into action if a horse was refusing to go forward for a long period of time and rider didn't retire?


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## teddypops (4 September 2018)

On an opposite side of the coin watching Silvia go round Burghley in her own time looking like she was really enjoying herself with Warren giving her all the time and support she needed was great.[/QUOTE said:
			
		


			I totally disagree. That was frightening to watch. The poor horse was exhausted and I cant believe the rider wasnt stopped!
		
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## claracanter (4 September 2018)

TheOldTrout said:



			Was any action taken against Caroline Powell for jumping into the crowd at Burgley? The article Tiddlypom linked to mentions someone at Blair being yellowcarded for doing something that sounds similar.
		
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 Yes, I wondered about this too. She said she didn't have any control and could have run over a member of the public. Also she didn't get off to sort the horse out as she wanted to complete the course so waited for someone to untangle her.


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## claracanter (4 September 2018)

Wheels said:



			I started this thread because I wanted to know how many warnings a rider needs before action is taken. Oli T has had several whip warnings fairly recently so that's why I singled him out but I don't condone any sort of overuse of whip or spurs or any kind of cruel riding.

The FEI and our affiliated organisations all need to step up to prevent this but the riders need to ultimately take responsibility for their actions, especially the ultra high profile riders.
		
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Didn't Mary King get banned for two months many years ago because she had two yellow cards in a season?


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## DabDab (4 September 2018)

DirectorFury said:



			Dumb question and totally not relevant to the thread but I'm confused by the 'not responding to driving aids' bit. 
Would that come into action if a horse was refusing to go forward for a long period of time and rider didn't retire?
		
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It's just to cover all bases I think. A horse reversing into a dangerous situation and a rider being unable to stop it/not getting off to prevent the situation escalating.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (4 September 2018)

claracanter said:



			Yes, I wondered about this too. She said she didn't have any control and could have run over a member of the public. Also she didn't get off to sort the horse out as she wanted to complete the course so waited for someone to untangle her.
		
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Is that why she didn't get off I was shouting at the tv at her to get off as she was just sat there! It's not like there was a massive crowd or Marshalls round her assisting her. I wondered if may be she stayed on as easier to keep the horse still that way she's lucky he didn't get even more tangled. Then didn't she go back through the string to get back to the course?


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## DirectorFury (4 September 2018)

DabDab said:



			It's just to cover all bases I think. A horse reversing into a dangerous situation and a rider being unable to stop it/not getting off to prevent the situation escalating.
		
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That makes sense, thanks. I wonder if it's ever been used!



claracanter said:



			Yes, I wondered about this too. She said she didn't have any control and could have run over a member of the public. Also she didn't get off to sort the horse out as she wanted to complete the course so waited for someone to untangle her.
		
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I thought going thru the string was an automatic elimination anyway? Or is that dressage and going outside the boards?
Tbh if there was no one at the horses head I would have stayed on too, mine is an idiot who would have tried to run off as I dismounted so (in my stupid, never ridden at a high level, opinion) it's safer to stay on and keep the horse still. Imagine if it had got her off and run off with the string wrapped round its leg .



claracanter said:



			Didn't Mary King get banned for two months many years ago because she had two yellow cards in a season?
		
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Yes, https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/mary-king-suspended-2-months-433117.


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## splashgirl45 (4 September 2018)

bubsqueaks said:



			And this is never mentioned - every cross country fence I saw Oliver jump - both live & on TV & there were quite a few with 3 horses - he patted & praised the horse once over the fence - something never mentioned.
		
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call me a cynic but i thought that he was only doing that to give a good impression... he doesnt usually pat his horses on the cross country so why at burghley?  could it possibly be that he is trying to make up for badminton and also blair?


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## {97702} (4 September 2018)

teddypops said:



			I totally disagree. That was frightening to watch. The poor horse was exhausted and I can&#8217;t believe the rider wasn&#8217;t stopped!
		
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Thank goodness I wasn't the only one to think this - I appreciate the horse has a distinct style but it was not pretty to watch, and I felt she should have been pulled up

Ditto Hazel Towers, maybe it is because I saw her horse bank two wide fences in the first few minutes of footage of her, but it was painful viewing for me and not a pretty/happy combination

But hell, what do I know


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## waggit (4 September 2018)

teddypops said:



			I totally disagree. That was frightening to watch. The poor horse was exhausted and I cant believe the rider wasnt stopped!
		
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Silvia to me cantered round with ears pricked popping over each fence. No sign of Warren pushing, scrubbing, whipping or spurring. I didn't think she looked exhausted just not up to the faster gallop necessary to make the time and she wasn't asked to be. We all seem to see different things. Does anyone agree that Harry Meade' s ride round with Away Cruising was well done and that the Austrian horse Cosma looked out of her depth and should of been pulled up sooner.


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## claracanter (4 September 2018)

waggit said:



			Silvia to me cantered round with ears pricked popping over each fence. No sign of Warren pushing, scrubbing, whipping or spurring. I didn't think she looked exhausted just not up to the faster gallop necessary to make the time and she wasn't asked to be. We all seem to see different things. Does anyone agree that Harry Meade' s ride round with Away Cruising was well done and that the Austrian horse Cosma looked out of her depth and should of been pulled up sooner.
		
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Yes, I'm with you on this


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## Tiddlypom (4 September 2018)

I saw Silvia lobbing along without impulsion and being asked to jump enormous fences without being set up for them. I thought she should have been pulled up.


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## teddypops (4 September 2018)

claracanter said:



			Yes, I'm with you on this
		
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It was nothing to do with her not having a fast gallop. She looked knackered.


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## Michen (4 September 2018)

Does anyone know who the chestnut was that scrambled over a few skinny brushes, Ian himself said please pull up and that was the last we saw of the horse. Not sure who it was though.


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## ester (5 September 2018)

I definitely don't think Caroline should have got off to sort the horse out, it would be difficult to hold the front of the horse and release a back leg anyway, and potentially increase the chance of the horse trying to get away. It did pop off very easily as it looked more wrapped round but maybe just caught under the back of a shoe.


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## MagicMelon (5 September 2018)

This is crazy that hes been done again for overuse of the whip - why does that not mean an automatic ban from the next event (which would have been Burghley)?  Im delighted he was not chosen for WEG, he absolutely does not deserve it. I hate to think what he does to those horses at home and why people give him their horses to compete I just dont understand.  

If they notice overuse of the whip as he's going round surely this is what that red card system is for?  Stop him and take him off the course, dont allow him to KEEP hitting the horse.


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## ester (5 September 2018)

I presume because at Badminton it wasn't a technical rule break, base on how the rule is currently written. Presumably similar at Blair otherwise they would have been yellow cards not verbal warnings.


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## MagicMelon (5 September 2018)

lannerch said:



			His horses went beautifully at burghley and finished a lot better than most , if he was bashing them at home as many are claiming there is no way he would get the performance out of them he does, they try their hearts out for him, not the behaviour of a terrorised horse!
		
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Of course he could get that performance out of them, they know if they refuse or slow down they get wacked for it.  So I totally disagree there, the arguement that horses cant be forced to do anything well actually of course they can if someone makes it that unpleasant NOT to do it.

With regards the horse caught in the rope, I personally would have done the same thing - surely we're all taught that in these circumstances its generally safer to stay on the horse where you have more control. If mine did that, she would likely panic if I started to jump off. I dont think she had ideas that she wanted to carry on, with no stearing how could she possibly have done.


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## Tihamandturkey (5 September 2018)

MagicMelon said:



			This is crazy that hes been done again for overuse of the whip - why does that not mean an automatic ban from the next event (which would have been Burghley)?  Im delighted he was not chosen for WEG, he absolutely does not deserve it. I hate to think what he does to those horses at home and why people give him their horses to compete I just dont understand.  

If they notice overuse of the whip as he's going round surely this is what that red card system is for?  Stop him and take him off the course, dont allow him to KEEP hitting the horse.
		
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Agree totally


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## ester (5 September 2018)

Michen said:



			Does anyone know who the chestnut was that scrambled over a few skinny brushes, Ian himself said please pull up and that was the last we saw of the horse. Not sure who it was though.
		
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I think it was Katrin Khoddam - Hazrati  with Cosma? They retired.


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## ester (5 September 2018)

MagicMelon said:



			Of course he could get that performance out of them, they know if they refuse or slow down they get wacked for it.  So I totally disagree there, the arguement that horses cant be forced to do anything well actually of course they can if someone makes it that unpleasant NOT to do it.

With regards the horse caught in the rope, I personally would have done the same thing - surely we're all taught that in these circumstances its generally safer to stay on the horse where you have more control. If mine did that, she would likely panic if I started to jump off. I dont think she had ideas that she wanted to carry on, with no stearing how could she possibly have done.
		
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she did carry on?


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## shortstuff99 (5 September 2018)

Because it was a verbal warning in a warm up! He wasn't given a yellow card or was he doing it on the course.


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## YorkshireLady (5 September 2018)

Ollie has not had a yellow card - both times it was a verbal warning. The two yellow cards at Blair are, if you look at the list, the two most common ones that appear to be given out. The continuing after elimination etc or jumping rope. I note that mostly people get a verbal warning for the whip....there are I think 2 yellow cards.


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## DabDab (5 September 2018)

MagicMelon said:



			Of course he could get that performance out of them, they know if they refuse or slow down they get wacked for it.  So I totally disagree there, the arguement that horses cant be forced to do anything well actually of course they can if someone makes it that unpleasant NOT to do it.

With regards the horse caught in the rope, I personally would have done the same thing - surely we're all taught that in these circumstances its generally safer to stay on the horse where you have more control. If mine did that, she would likely panic if I started to jump off. I dont think she had ideas that she wanted to carry on, with no stearing how could she possibly have done.
		
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You cannot beat a horse over a 4* xc fence that really doesn't want to go. Over the years I've seen a lot of people attempt to use a stick to get a horse to jump, but it never works, it just doesn't. Horses generally don't have the brain to think 'hmm, if I had gone over the jump then I wouldn't have been hit'. Tbh, horses don't really understand whips as punishment in general, that's why they get so confused and upset by being hit in that way. They only really understand whips as an instruction - go faster, move that way, back away etc. 

Generally whip use on a xc course is to keep the horse galloping when it is tired and would really rather slow down, to keep a horse straight or to get the horse's attention when it isn't concentrating or really listening to the rider.


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## windand rain (5 September 2018)

Wonder how many people on here use a whip or worse still kick the horse constantly. As a one time instructor it drove me mad to see the people I started teaching think it was ok to kick every stride and do pony club legs off kicks to increase speed or encourage their horses to jump or go forward. You will still see it everywhere if a horse stops and stares for any reason. I personally think a swift tap behind the leg is far preferable to being contantly niggled by flapping heels. Hey ho it doesnt matter anyway you that condemn OT for winning cannot possibly understand his horses and any other professional horseman horses simply would not perform if they were not content and happy to do so Even the most generous horse would balk at jumping 4" cross country fences if they thought they were incapable of doing so and were not happy to do so. These horses are treasured and cared for to nth degree they are vetted and pampered all their long lives after all there are some still doing it at 18 and 19 so they must love it. I also think the horses and riders have to be slightly bonkers.
You cannot beat a horse over a pole on the ground if it doesnt want to go nor boot it to go either


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## lannerch (5 September 2018)

windand rain said:



			Wonder how many people on here use a whip or worse still kick the horse constantly. As a one time instructor it drove me mad to see the people I started teaching think it was ok to kick every stride and do pony club legs off kicks to increase speed or encourage their horses to jump or go forward. You will still see it everywhere if a horse stops and stares for any reason. I personally think a swift tap behind the leg is far preferable to being contantly niggled by flapping heels. Hey ho it doesnt matter anyway you that condemn OT for winning cannot possibly understand his horses and any other professional horseman horses simply would not perform if they were not content and happy to do so Even the most generous horse would balk at jumping 4" cross country fences if they thought they were incapable of doing so and were not happy to do so. These horses are treasured and cared for to nth degree they are vetted and pampered all their long lives after all there are some still doing it at 18 and 19 so they must love it. I also think the horses and riders have to be slightly bonkers.
You cannot beat a horse over a pole on the ground if it doesnt want to go nor boot it to go either
		
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Totally agree with all the above. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink , additionally you cant get a leading dressage score on anything but a relaxed happy horse. 

I was helping out with a farm ride recently by a collection of small jumps, the standard of riding in about 80% of the riders was horrifying, the horses were kicked , slapped kicked again, asked to jump from no stride pulled in the mouth , and this was the majority of riders!  And funnily enough the horses frequently refused to jump.

How many of you posting here , baying for OT blood if your honest with yourselves fit into the catagory above?


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## Mule (5 September 2018)

DabDab said:



			You cannot beat a horse over a 4* xc fence that really doesn't want to go. Over the years I've seen a lot of people attempt to use a stick to get a horse to jump, but it never works, it just doesn't. Horses generally don't have the brain to think 'hmm, if I had gone over the jump then I wouldn't have been hit'. Tbh, horses don't really understand whips as punishment in general, that's why they get so confused and upset by being hit in that way. They only really understand whips as an instruction - go faster, move that way, back away etc. 

Generally whip use on a xc course is to keep the horse galloping when it is tired and would really rather slow down, to keep a horse straight or to get the horse's attention when it isn't concentrating or really listening to the rider.
		
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I don't know. A 'strong rider' can hassle a horse over jumps that are within its' range. A 4* fence to 4* horse isn't a shock to such a horse that it would be to the average horse. I knew a horse that was frightened of ditches. It's owner couldn't get the horse over them, but her boyfriend could (with heavy use of a whip). Of course the horse remained frightened of ditches so the whole approach was counterproductive.


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## ihatework (5 September 2018)

mule said:



			I don't know. A 'strong rider' can hassle a horse over jumps that are within its' range. A 4* fence to 4* horse isn't a shock to such a horse that it would be to the average horse. I knew a horse that was frightened of ditches. It's owner couldn't get the horse over them, but her boyfriend could (with heavy use of a whip). Of course the horse remained frightened of ditches so the whole approach was counterproductive.
		
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Not consistently you can&#8217;t. 
It shows in their form over a fence, creeps into other aspects of their training and eventually the wheels all fall off.


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## DabDab (5 September 2018)

mule said:



			I don't know. A 'strong rider' can hassle a horse over jumps that are within its' range. A 4* fence to 4* horse isn't a shock to such a horse that it would be to the average horse. I knew a horse that was frightened of ditches. It's owner couldn't get the horse over them, but her boyfriend could (with heavy use of a whip). Of course the horse remained frightened of ditches so the whole approach was counterproductive.
		
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Well a ditch isn't really a jump, it's more of an obstacle and a horse can decide (possibly after a lot of hassling) to take a leap of faith over from a standstill. There's a bit of a difference between that and jumping a stonking great fence out of a forward canter.


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## Mule (5 September 2018)

windand rain said:



			Wonder how many people on here use a whip or worse still kick the horse constantly. As a one time instructor it drove me mad to see the people I started teaching think it was ok to kick every stride and do pony club legs off kicks to increase speed or encourage their horses to jump or go forward. You will still see it everywhere if a horse stops and stares for any reason. I personally think a swift tap behind the leg is far preferable to being contantly niggled by flapping heels. Hey ho it doesnt matter anyway you that condemn OT for winning cannot possibly understand his horses and any other professional horseman horses simply would not perform if they were not content and happy to do so Even the most generous horse would balk at jumping 4" cross country fences if they thought they were incapable of doing so and were not happy to do so. These horses are treasured and cared for to nth degree they are vetted and pampered all their long lives after all there are some still doing it at 18 and 19 so they must love it. I also think the horses and riders have to be slightly bonkers.
You cannot beat a horse over a pole on the ground if it doesnt want to go nor boot it to go either
		
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Tbh I don't think horses care about being pampered. They prefer a non pampered lifestyle ime. Being pampered is a thing humans enjoy. I agree with you about the kicking though. The big pony club kicks make me wince. I had a dressage instructor who advocated them to get horse more responsive. Ended up with a pissed off uncooperative horse.


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## lannerch (5 September 2018)

DabDab said:



			Well a ditch isn't really a jump, it's more of an obstacle and a horse can decide (possibly after a lot of hassling) to take a leap of faith over from a standstill. There's a bit of a difference between that and jumping a stonking great fence out of a forward canter.
		
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Exactlyand the fact the horse still remained terrified of ditches , means the bigger the ditches got, the more terrifying the rider would have to be to get it over, and if there was any way out on the course , the horse would take it.


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## Mule (5 September 2018)

lannerch said:



			Exactlyand the fact the horse still remained terrified of ditches , means the bigger the ditches got, the more terrifying the rider would have to be to get it over, and if there was any way out on the course , the horse would take it.
		
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Agreed. It's also bad training. As another poster said the horse won't jump it consistently. Mine used to be afraid of ditches (not terrified cus i never escalated it). Anyway I let him look at them and didn't pressure him to go over them, then did it on the lunge, then on the lunge with a rider. I'm no expert, by any means but it did the job and it was low stress for both of us.


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## Sandstone1 (5 September 2018)

windand rain said:



			Wonder how many people on here use a whip or worse still kick the horse constantly. As a one time instructor it drove me mad to see the people I started teaching think it was ok to kick every stride and do pony club legs off kicks to increase speed or encourage their horses to jump or go forward. You will still see it everywhere if a horse stops and stares for any reason. I personally think a swift tap behind the leg is far preferable to being contantly niggled by flapping heels. Hey ho it doesnt matter anyway you that condemn OT for winning cannot possibly understand his horses and any other professional horseman horses simply would not perform if they were not content and happy to do so Even the most generous horse would balk at jumping 4" cross country fences if they thought they were incapable of doing so and were not happy to do so. These horses are treasured and cared for to nth degree they are vetted and pampered all their long lives after all there are some still doing it at 18 and 19 so they must love it. I also think the horses and riders have to be slightly bonkers.
You cannot beat a horse over a pole on the ground if it doesnt want to go nor boot it to go either
		
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So why does he hit them and use his spurs in the way he does then?  What does it achieve)


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## lannerch (5 September 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			So why does he hit them and use his spurs in the way he does then?  What does it achieve)
		
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The rider I saw at Burghley certainly didnt this is OT your still talking about?


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## fetlock (5 September 2018)

lannerch said:



			Totally agree with all the above. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink , additionally you cant get a leading dressage score on anything but a relaxed happy horse. 

I was helping out with a farm ride recently by a collection of small jumps, the standard of riding in about 80% of the riders was horrifying, the horses were kicked , slapped kicked again, asked to jump from no stride pulled in the mouth , and this was the majority of riders!  And funnily enough the horses frequently refused to jump.

How many of you posting here , baying for OT blood if your honest with yourselves fit into the catagory above?
		
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Was it an Oliver Townend Fan Club day out? Riders copying their idols and all that...


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## lannerch (5 September 2018)

fetlock said:



			Was it an Oliver Townend Fan Club day out? Riders copying their idols and all that...
		
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Obviously not OT horses actually jump. ;-)


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## shortstuff99 (5 September 2018)

I've just watched the Silvia round and it looks horrendous?! He uses his whip a number of times, and the horse looks barely capable of clearing the fences near the end and yet that's hailed as being a great round? Does make me wonder about some posters judgement.


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## windand rain (5 September 2018)

Wouldn't class myself as any ones Fan but also do not think it is right to throw stones in a glass house even if Horse and Hound are not there to report it


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## oldie48 (5 September 2018)

lannerch said:



			The rider I saw at Burghley certainly didn&#8217;t this is OT your still talking about?
		
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No, it's not the rider I saw either! It is ridiculous to suggest that he is misusing his spurs, if he were, the horse would be marked and sore and wouldn't pass the vetting. I am also neither a fan or otherwise of OT but I hate this social media witch hunt. Go and have a look at his BE record, his horses try for him, he rarely has a XC fault and I don't think he always gets the easiest horses. If he smacked a horse in the warm up that stopped, I don't blame him, pretty much any eventer/SJ I know would have done the same but he is in the spot light ATM. I've seen plenty of top professionals finish on a tired horse, give it a smack when it's stopped or run out and I wonder how many with a huge cash prize within their grasp, would have not ridden like OT at Badminton. Eventing is a tough sport for both horses and riders and you have to be a highly competitive person to get to the top and you have to be very determined to get round a 4* track. I see far more horse abuse at local low level competitions and no, they are not copying OT they are just rubbish riders who know no better.


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## DiNozzo (5 September 2018)

shortstuff99 said:



			I've just watched the Silvia round and it looks horrendous?! He uses his whip a number of times, and the horse looks barely capable of clearing the fences near the end and yet that's hailed as being a great round? Does make me wonder about some posters judgement.
		
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Quite a lot of riders used a whip 'multiple' times...

He never used it more than once in a row, and the horse jumped confidently and cleanly all the way to the last. She wasn't hurried or chased and whilst yes, clearly tired, was not pushed or punished to give her all.


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## eggs (5 September 2018)

oldie48 said:



			I see far more horse abuse at local low level competitions and no, they are not copying OT they are just rubbish riders who know no better.
		
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Sadly I have to agree.  I hadn't been to an unaffiliated show for about 20 years but was at one recently helping a friend and was horrified at the standard of riding in the show jumping which seems to have really detiorated.  Horses bitted up but being socked in the mouth whilst being pony club kicked with spurs.

I personally wouldn't send a horse to OT but then there are a fair few riders I wouldn't send a horse to and I don't see them being pilloried on social media.


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## ester (5 September 2018)

He had belly bands for XC on Cooley and BC. 

I'm not a fan but thought he rode well on all three rounds, he struck me as a bit different to at badders and it made me wonder how much effect the possibility of the grand slam had had on him.


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## teddypops (5 September 2018)

shortstuff99 said:



			I've just watched the Silvia round and it looks horrendous?! He uses his whip a number of times, and the horse looks barely capable of clearing the fences near the end and yet that's hailed as being a great round? Does make me wonder about some posters judgement.
		
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I agree!


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## Sandstone1 (5 September 2018)

lannerch said:



			The rider I saw at Burghley certainly didn&#8217;t this is OT your still talking about?
		
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I thought  this thread was about the warning he received at Blair not about Burghley?
He clearly can ride without using his whip and Spurs but on occasion choices not to.
Some of his horses wear belly bands to prevent marks from spurs.
Maybe they should be banned.


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## lannerch (5 September 2018)

Sandstone1 said:



			I thought  this thread was about the warning he received at Blair not about Burghley?
He clearly can ride without using his whip and Spurs but on occasion choices not to.
Some of his horses wear belly bands to prevent marks from spurs.
Maybe they should be banned.
		
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I watched his ride on live stream at Blair as well and my comment still applies here as well. Looked a lovely smooth ride , which I believe he won the section on. 
Admittedly the warning was given for an incident in the collecting ring, where the horse ran out on the practice fence, which of course I did not see.


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## cundlegreen (5 September 2018)

oldie48 said:



			No, it's not the rider I saw either! It is ridiculous to suggest that he is misusing his spurs, if he were, the horse would be marked and sore and wouldn't pass the vetting. I am also neither a fan or otherwise of OT but I hate this social media witch hunt. .
		
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Sorry, but he had his knees turned out and feet at right angles with the spurs stuck into their sides. Bellybands or not, that is NOT how to use spurs. No witch hunt here just what I observed at both Badminton and Burghley.


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## attheponies (5 September 2018)

I watched the Silvia round really closely (soft spot for greys) and have just watched it again on iplayer and saw Warren tap her once early on. I thought he rode her quietly and sympathetically and as the commentators said although she certainly wasn't speeding along, she was jumping well. She also passed inspection next day and finished in 35th place which I doubt she would have managed had she been struggling the day before.


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## shortstuff99 (5 September 2018)

He hit the horse at at least 3 different fences and the horse finished 2 minutes (!!!) Over time which for a horse that hasn't had problems on course is a bit ridiculous.


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## lannerch (5 September 2018)

cundlegreen said:



			Sorry, but he had his knees turned out and feet at right angles with the spurs stuck into their sides. Bellybands or not, that is NOT how to use spurs. No witch hunt here just what I observed at both Badminton and Burghley.
		
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Disagree totally just watched his round on Cooley he gives him a lovely encouraging round, even when Cooley backs off.
 I personally think the only reason he is wearing the spur bands this time is because of the trouble he had in the trot up at badminton when BC was withheld and reinspected due to a mark on his side where the hair had been rubbed off . 
Not saying by any means his riding at badminton was acceptable, but his riding at burghley, and the live streamed round at Blair was class .


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## lannerch (5 September 2018)

lannerch said:



			Disagree totally just watched his round on Cooley he gives him a lovely encouraging round, even when Cooley backs off.
 I personally think the only reason he is wearing the spur bands this time is because of the trouble he had in the trot up at badminton when BC was withheld and reinspected due to a mark on his side where the hair had been rubbed off . 
Not saying by any means his riding at badminton was acceptable, but his riding at burghley, and the live streamed round at Blair was class .
		
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Just correcting myself it was Cooley who had to be represented in the trot up at badders not BC


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## Chianti (7 September 2018)

HBII said:



			Re the patting - only done to make a point IMO
		
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While i was watching I did wonder if he was doing it to counter the negative publicity at Badminton. I didn't particularly like him but lost all respect after the 'sometimes you have to win ugly' comment from there. I think he's very arrogant and needs to learn from riders who've achieved far more than he has.


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## lar (7 September 2018)

Can I just point out that the "win ugly" phrase that seems to have caused SO much upset was ACTUALLY first uttered by the "saintly" Clare Balding during the Saturday broadcasting at Badminton.


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## daffy44 (7 September 2018)

"Winning Ugly" was coined by Brad Gilbert (very high level US tennis coach) as a phrase for tennis players who won without playing a  technically beautiful game, but by scrapping away, and never giving up.  Its Brad Gilbert that Clare was quoting.


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## lar (8 September 2018)

And OT May just have been quoting Clare quoting Brad Gilbert yet everybody seems to  have got upset at him using the phrase.


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## DabDab (8 September 2018)

Because it's a crass turn of phrase (and frankly a worrying way for a competitor to think) when you are talking about a sport which requires another living creature to take the pain of 'winning ugly'


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## ycbm (8 September 2018)

lar said:



			Can I just point out that the "win ugly" phrase that seems to have caused SO much upset was ACTUALLY first uttered by the "saintly" Clare Balding during the Saturday broadcasting at Badminton.
		
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What's the relevance of the 'saintly' comment about Claire? She wasn't riding the horse and hitting it, was she?

It causes upset because it's a nasty way of thinking by a sportsman when the equipment you're using to win ugly is a live animal, and it should never have occurred to him to repeat it.


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## Goldenstar (8 September 2018)

ycbm said:



			What's the relevance of the 'saintly' comment about Claire? She wasn't riding the horse and hitting it, was she?

It causes upset because it's a nasty way of thinking by a sportsman when the equipment you're using to win ugly is a live animal.
		
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Exactly CB was not riding the horse OT made a grave error by repeating the phrase himself later it will follow him around a long while .


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## teapot (9 September 2018)

No warnings/yellow cards for Burghley as yet on the FEI list dated from Friday


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